# Will crate 8 hours per day affect puppy's personality?



## cqok (May 22, 2018)

does long time crate makes the puppy more aggressive?

I can play with him before work and after work. but have to crate him 8 hours per day. Worrying this may makes he more aggressive, is it true?


----------



## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Short answer is yes. Long answer is to many variables to say to what extent. First off a puppy cant be created for 8 hrs without having a accident, which will set back potty training. Also why you crate for 8 hrs, if it is work I would highly recommend getting a dog sitter. Crating for 8 hrs will deprive the puppy of bonding time with you as well and releasing energy if the puppy has pent up energy it will release it in a forms you will not like. Another thing is socialization will he effected, that is the biggest problem you will have a unsocialzed dog is not a good thing. Unsocialzed dogs tend to he scared which can lead to aggression, I would say do bit crate for 8 hrs find another way. Luna gets created for a maximum time of 3 hrs and that is only on one day. Yes she gets crated the out the day if I leave to go do errands or I go shower but not 8 hrs, currently Luna is with me in my car yes in a crate but only until I get to my next job i let her out to walk around and sniff l, then I crate ger knock the call out and drive to the next call.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

8 hrs during the day and what about the night? That adds at least 6 hours I would think. How much fun for that pup? Why get a pup then? There is no time for socialization, building personality or muscle and training and just pure fun and enjoying a new puppy. What about you when you come home for work? No time for anything but trying to make up for that puppy. A pup needs to relieve himself at least every few hour so you may have problems getting the pup housebroken. Forget about the semi-convenient puppy pads as he will shred them from boredom. How would that be for you, being locked up all day without a bathroom? A retired greyhound would be better; just a couch and they are fine for 20 hours.


----------



## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

I agree. It isn't fair to the puppy or to you because you. Rethink getting a puppy right now.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

There are plenty of adult dogs in foster care that have been tested and observed, and their foster will be able to tell you exactly how they would do alone all day. 

I think the correct advice is do not get a puppy if it is alone while everyone 9 to 5's. Taking 2 weeks off wouyld be a good start but still would not cut it. They can't hold their bodily functions in until at least 7 or 8 months old for that long. On a daily basis. 

If you do not have someone that can come in and break it up during the day, I would go with an older calm dog.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I believe the OP posted on another thread that a friend could come in to let the puppy out midday, but they were worried it would cause the puppy to develop bad habits that would be hard to un-train later. If you want to get a puppy or already have one, someone should come in to let the puppy out while you are gone. Get someone you trust and be very clear about what things are allowed and not allowed with your puppy. It is important that the puppy gets time to stretch its legs and go to the bathroom without having to sit in it all day. That will cause potty training AND crate training issues down the road.


----------



## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

He's going to need access to water at least every 2 hours if it's warm (for him not you),and if it's a young pup it'll need feeding too,not to mention toileting.

Think of it this way,he could crap all over his cage and then knock his water over 2 mins after you leave the house,then what?
How are you going to house train it?

It's not a humane or practical way to raise a pup.


----------



## cqok (May 22, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. I will consider have someone to help when puppy picked up.

How about 7 month puppy when leave him in crate for 8 hours, will this also make him aggressive? (2-7 month had someone with him)


----------



## Rae1 (Mar 7, 2018)

I've crated my dog for about 7-8 hours a day plus about 9-10 hours at night ever since I brought her home. When I first brought her home, she did get a potty break every two hours or so but she was still crated for long periods of time because I had to work. 

I have asked a question very similar to this to quite a few people in messages about having my pup in her crate all day and not one of them said that she would suffer at all. In fact, many people came back with telling me to take a chill pill and it wasn't going to hurt the dog because in the end, she has time with me before and after work and she is loved. Not everyone can be a 'work from home' type person and I was told to not worry about it as long as I could devote time to my pup whenever I could get some which is mainly on weekends. Now I know my pup isn't in her crate for 8 hours a day because she gets a break midday for a walk. But still, I find it hard to get advice on this topic when half of the people will say that I cannot leave my dog outside unattended due to her getting into something. Then half of the people tell me I cannot leave her wandering around unattended inside because she will destroy something. Now many people are saying to not leave your dog in a crate while you work because it could have negative consequences. I know I said three halves but that just proves how confusing the advice given can be.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Rae1 said:


> I've crated my dog for about 7-8 hours a day plus about 9-10 hours at night ever since I brought her home. When I first brought her home, she did get a potty break every two hours or so but she was still crated for long periods of time because I had to work.
> 
> I have asked a question very similar to this to quite a few people in messages about having my pup in her crate all day and not one of them said that she would suffer at all. In fact, many people came back with telling me to take a chill pill and it wasn't going to hurt the dog because in the end, she has time with me before and after work and she is loved. Not everyone can be a 'work from home' type person and I was told to not worry about it as long as I could devote time to my pup whenever I could get some which is mainly on weekends. Now I know my pup isn't in her crate for 8 hours a day because she gets a break midday for a walk. But still, I find it hard to get advice on this topic when half of the people will say that I cannot leave my dog outside unattended due to her getting into something. Then half of the people tell me I cannot leave her wandering around unattended inside because she will destroy something. Now many people are saying to not leave your dog in a crate while you work because it could have negative consequences. I know I said three halves but that just proves how confusing the advice given can be.


IF your options are either leaving your puppy in its crate for 18/24 hours a day or leaving her outside by herself all day...obviously not a good time to get a puppy


----------



## Rae1 (Mar 7, 2018)

Chuck94! said:


> IF your options are either leaving your puppy in its crate for 18/24 hours a day or leaving her outside by herself all day...obviously not a good time to get a puppy


Okay so that means that pretty much no person between the ages of 18-65(retirement) can get a puppy ever. Is that my understanding? Well, hold up, I need to rehome my dog now...

Also what about all the dogs that get left in the shelters with one walk a day for exercise? I feel like there are many other people who have work schedules too.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Most people I know with dogs did not get them as a puppy - and the ones that did had the flexability to do so. I am 23 and I have a puppy but 18 hours a day just does not sound like much of a good life?


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Rae1 said:


> Okay so that means that pretty much no person between the ages of 18-65(retirement) can get a puppy ever. Is that my understanding? Well, hold up, I need to rehome my dog now...
> 
> Also what about all the dogs that get left in the shelters with one walk a day for exercise? I feel like there are many other people who have work schedules too.


You should look into an ex-pen or two instead of the crate for when you are gone - it will give your dog more room while still being safe as long as they are trained to not jump up on the sides!


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I’ve had 4 shepherds ( not at the same time) all being 7 weeks -3 months when I got them, Ozzy being my fifth. I was a single mom back in the day and pup was in crate while I worked 8 hrs a day. Had someone come get the pup out 3 times a day and all did just fine. I always fed 2 times a day because I worked. 
Now I work 3 12’s, bf works 8 and neighbor gets Ozzy out 3 times a day. Much better situation but he is still in his crate. He does very well and is safe there when not supervised. 
Just because u work does not mean U can’t ever get a pup just need to have a plan for the pup when ur not home. 
I would never leave a pup in a crate 8 hrs a day without getting out.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't think the issue is that crating for most of the day makes a pup more aggressive, but rather, it is a very impoverished environment and prevents the dog from developing his maximum potential. It can certainly lead to increased frustration, which might contribute to puppy aggression. If you are going to work and raise a puppy, you need to come up with a better solution than leaving the pup in the crate all day until you get off of work and then all night. Well bred GSDs are very intelligent and they need to experience the world and not be locked up in a crate for the majority of their early development.


----------



## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Rae1 said:


> Okay so that means that pretty much no person between the ages of 18-65(retirement) can get a puppy ever. Is that my understanding? Well, hold up, I need to rehome my dog now...
> 
> Also what about all the dogs that get left in the shelters with one walk a day for exercise? I feel like there are many other people who have work schedules too.


Do you think it's humane to leave an intelligent,social and energetic puppy locked up in a small cage for 18 hours a day?

Being locked in a kennel all day is far from ideal,but much better.
They can walk around,jump,have access to water,stretch out when they lie down etc.


----------



## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I guess I’m a terrible person then, I’ll work on getting my dogs rehomed ASAP


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I guess I will too.


----------



## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I’ve had 4 shepherds ( not at the same time) all being 7 weeks -3 months when I got them, Ozzy being my fifth. I was a single mom back in the day and pup was in crate while I worked 8 hrs a day. Had someone come get the pup out 3 times a day and all did just fine. I always fed 2 times a day because I worked.
> Now I work 3 12’s, bf works 8 and neighbor gets Ozzy out 3 times a day. Much better situation but he is still in his crate. He does very well and is safe there when not supervised.
> Just because u work does not mean U can’t ever get a pup just need to have a plan for the pup when ur not home.
> I would never leave a pup in a crate 8 hrs a day without getting out.


 you said a person came over 3 times a day, 8 divided by 3 is.... 2.6, which is far better then 8 hrs in a crate, I do not care who you are you do not crate a puppy for 8 hrs and not expect issues to arise. I have Luna in the car with me right now. She gets out roughly ever hr to hr and a half. A matter a fact we just went into a bank and she got loving and socialization all in one.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

My husband works weekdays and I work weekend nights, so someone is almost always home. But when my dogs were puppies, I would have someone come and let them out of the crate if I had to be gone for more than 4 hours or so. I phase out the crate when my dogs are around 1-1.5 years. After that they are either loose in the house or outside in the yard (I don't leave them outside when we're gone, though).


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

But why not make it easier on yourself and your dog, and get a dog that matches your lifestyle?
Taking the time to actually study your lifestyle - how much time you have, how much exercise/attention/training you can give, etc. will pay off big - 
since you will have this dog (hopefully) for many years. 

Dogs can vary so much from high-maintenance to low-maintenance, 
and I would definitely put a GSD puppy in the "high maintenance" category!
Not easy for somebody who has a fulltime job out of the house.

Case in point: 
Our neighbors both work fulltime. They got a beautiful labradoodle puppy. She told me that he was waking her up twice a night (potty), and she was exhausted and felt awful when she had to go to work the next day...her husband was trying to come home at lunch to let the puppy out, but he had a 20 min drive each way, which was not easy with his job. They were having a hard time! That puppy is no longer there. That same weekend, we got our middle-aged rescue. He naps quietly while I work, he sleeps through the night, he does not destroy things, he came housetrained and has never had an accident in the house. He is still here...


----------



## cqok (May 22, 2018)

Thanks for the message. Yes, it is hard for working people, but we do want to have a happy gsd.

when you away, do you use puppy pad or x-pen? Where does your puppy pee when in crate? How do you use the divider? 



Rae1 said:


> I've crated my dog for about 7-8 hours a day plus about 9-10 hours at night ever since I brought her home. When I first brought her home, she did get a potty break every two hours or so but she was still crated for long periods of time because I had to work.
> 
> I have asked a question very similar to this to quite a few people in messages about having my pup in her crate all day and not one of them said that she would suffer at all. In fact, many people came back with telling me to take a chill pill and it wasn't going to hurt the dog because in the end, she has time with me before and after work and she is loved. Not everyone can be a 'work from home' type person and I was told to not worry about it as long as I could devote time to my pup whenever I could get some which is mainly on weekends. Now I know my pup isn't in her crate for 8 hours a day because she gets a break midday for a walk. But still, I find it hard to get advice on this topic when half of the people will say that I cannot leave my dog outside unattended due to her getting into something. Then half of the people tell me I cannot leave her wandering around unattended inside because she will destroy something. Now many people are saying to not leave your dog in a crate while you work because it could have negative consequences. I know I said three halves but that just proves how confusing the advice given can be.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I know you will take the advice if it is what you like to hear.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> I guess I’m a terrible person then, I’ll work on getting my dogs rehomed ASAP





BigOzzy2018 said:


> I guess I will too.


Add me in there.

Bottom line is that MOST of the worlds population is not independently wealthy, and at least in North America, 40 hour work weeks(or more) are the norm. 

I see nothing wrong with crating a pup all day, BUT it puts an increased demand on the owner to forgo some of the niceties of life to ensure that puppy has exercise, training, play time and interaction when you are home. And by niceties I mean hour long showers, 8 hours of sleep, relaxing dinners, nights out with friends, etc.

I spent about 6 hours of my day dedicated solely to making my dog happy when I was working, So I slept less, and showered faster and ate quicker. 
Even now that I am home, I talk to friends while playing with my dog.

It's not about whether or not you work, it's about what you can sacrifice, and are willing to, so that your dog can be happy and well adjusted.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think the problem is not crating a puppy, but crating a young puppy for 8 hours without being let out to pee.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I use an x-pen mostly now - but he is 5/6 months and hasn't had an accident in the house in over 2 months! I think an x-pen would have been too much room when I got him at 8 weeks old. You do not want to give them too much room or they will have accidents in there and that will be a whole issue to deal with


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Rae1 said:


> I've crated my dog for about 7-8 hours a day plus about 9-10 hours at night ever since I brought her home. When I first brought her home, she did get a potty break every two hours or so but she was still crated for long periods of time because I had to work.
> 
> I have asked a question very similar to this to quite a few people in messages about having my pup in her crate all day and not one of them said that she would suffer at all. In fact, many people came back with telling me to take a chill pill and it wasn't going to hurt the dog because in the end, she has time with me before and after work and she is loved. Not everyone can be a 'work from home' type person and I was told to not worry about it as long as I could devote time to my pup whenever I could get some which is mainly on weekends. Now I know my pup isn't in her crate for 8 hours a day because she gets a break midday for a walk. But still, I find it hard to get advice on this topic when half of the people will say that I cannot leave my dog outside unattended due to her getting into something. Then half of the people tell me I cannot leave her wandering around unattended inside because she will destroy something. Now many people are saying to not leave your dog in a crate while you work because it could have negative consequences. I know I said three halves but that just proves how confusing the advice given can be.


The crating while at work I get but 9-10 hours at night also? Why? 

My dog is crated during the day and on occasion also at night. But then I only crate my dogs for bedtime so for 5-6 hours tops. When I worked days, Shadow was crated at 11pm and I got up to walk her at 4am, she was out with me in the house until I left at 6 and I was home around 2 to let her out and she was out until 11pm. 
If you want a puppy you don't get 10 hours of sleep. Period.


----------



## Rae1 (Mar 7, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> The crating while at work I get but 9-10 hours at night also? Why?
> 
> My dog is crated during the day and on occasion also at night. But then I only crate my dogs for bedtime so for 5-6 hours tops. When I worked days, Shadow was crated at 11pm and I got up to walk her at 4am, she was out with me in the house until I left at 6 and I was home around 2 to let her out and she was out until 11pm.
> If you want a puppy you don't get 10 hours of sleep. Period.


She is crated for that long because I get really sick if I don't get at least 8hours of sleep. The extra hour or two is my bedtime routine to calm my mind down so that when I do hit the pillow, it's actually restful sleep and I don't deal with PTSD. I was told by a trainer that I needed to get her used to my schedule immediately otherwise I would hit issues down the road and the trainer knows exactly what my schedule is. Secondly, I have and will continue to try to have her out with me in my room sleeping. She doesn't like to stay quiet during the night. The 4 times I have tried leaving her out of the crate and in the room with me, she has started barking for no reason in the middle of the night. The worst night which was the last time I let her out of the crate for sleeping, she woke me up 7 times with barking then I had enough and put her in the crate for the rest of the night. I close her crate at 9pm and am up at 5am or 6am. She won't even come out of the crate at 5 am unless she really has to pee then she just goes back in and sleeps anyway so I go and shower and get ready, by the time I am done at 6am, she will get up and we will go for a walk. Then I have to leave the house by 7:30. So, if you have advice for me here, I would love to hear it. Most of her schedule, she does on her own. It's taken me a really long time to get her to utilize her off switch but now that she can, she does.


----------



## Rae1 (Mar 7, 2018)

I feel like I should clarify: 
1. I did not mean to start an argument with people. 
2. I feel that my point was not clear. When my dog was a puppy, she was only in her crate for 2 hours max at a time and I had a friend come over to let her out to potty then back into the crate. Now, I do not have my dog in the crate for 8+hours straight unless it's at night. She gets a break for about an hour or two to walk, play and interact with people. She still loves people and most dogs.
3. I know that we all have the best intentions with our dogs. None of us would be here asking each other for advice if we didn't care about our dog's well being. 
4. I have to crate my dog at night because I don't know how to deal with her barking every hour at what I feel is normal city noises. She doesn't bark at all during the day at the same noises and she never barks in her crate. I have tried to put her in a gated off area (she knocks over x-pens) and in my bedroom with me and she will bark at least 4 or 5 times during the night which means I don't get sleep. I don't know how to fix it other than keeping her in the crate. 
5. I can and will start trying to work on giving her more space. I can see that now and that it's important for her to get space to stretch. She seems to be at the age where she won't have an accident but at the same time, if she does, she eats her own poop. Which, once again, I did the searching through this forum for advice and most everyone says that I have to keep it cleaned up immediately after she's done it. So that is why I have her crated during the day because she won't potty in her crate at all which helps me keep the poop cleaned up immediately after it happens. But I will work on finding a solution that works well for her and my needs. 
I'm sorry that I've offended so many people on this forum with the way that I am trying to raise my pup. But know that I, like you, am doing my best to try to provide everything I can for a puppy that I rescued. If the life I have provided is so horrible, then I will look into whatever I have to do to re-home her.


----------



## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

@Rae1

Bit of free advice, seeing as you’re new. 

Don’t take anything personal on here, no matter what you do somebody is going to have a problem with it. 

There’s no to apologize, this is normal.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Rae: She is barking for a reason: being crated for 17 hours out of the 24. She leads a bird's life. This is not good. I am respectful of your condition but I am looking from your pup's view.


----------



## Daveglubetich (May 22, 2018)

Is there a room you can leave him in? That seems like a long time in a crate and could possibly lead to problems.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Rae: She is barking for a reason: being crated for 17 hours out of the 24. She leads a bird's life. This is not good. I am respectful of your condition but I am looking from your pup's view.


Wolfy, birds don't belong in a cage either. 

Coming from someone that has owned quite a few parrots, they are happiest and healthiest with plenty out-of-the-cage time. At least 3 hours, but my parrots were always out 6+ hours a day. They needed it mentally as well as physically, but a puppy requires a lot more exercise than a parrot. Therefore, puppies need even more time out of the cage.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pytheis said:


> Wolfy, birds don't belong in a cage either.
> 
> .


It's the reason I won't have birds.


----------



## slackoff01 (Apr 11, 2018)

It would be ideal to break up the crating into smaller chunks. My pup right now spend a good deal of time crated in short intervals. 

I get up early with him and the kids and the other dogs > potty time > hang out > feeding time > crate > take kids to school > off to work. 

I come home mid-day to feed / train / play > re-crate. 

After work > get kids > go home > potty-time > play > feed / train > re-crate > cook dinner > time with familiy > kids to bed > potty-time > play / train > re-crate > Shower if I am lucky > bed.

I forgo pretty much all personal time however for my pup. He gets more time out on weekends but is still on a pretty strict crate-schedule as part of his training. In fact he is crated more than any of my other dogs per my trainers recommendation. Right now it is all about trying to train him, and myself ( I feel like my handler skills are lower than I would like, not that I am a newb however)

I have a super happy and very obedient pup, no issues what so ever with aggression / boredom. Potty trained almost 100% by 11 weeks. At 15 weeks I think I had one #2 incident that was my fault, I didnt follow my normal feed / potty schedule. And a few tinkles here and there. Early on he seemed to mistake the picture windows for the sliding glass door and I would miss his cue to need to go out.

Your mileage may vary, Im hoping to get mine trained up to IPO trail him. As he gets older he gets less and less crate time. But we have ZERO destruction / aggression issue and he is form a working line, not some couch potato.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs are pack animals. They really don't do well all by themselves, crated or not. I see that as a bigger problem than how confined the animal is. But yes, a baby-puppy will be lonely and might develop some annoying and possibly dangerous behaviors if crated to excess. 

So how do we, who are not of retirement age manage having a dog. Especially if we cannot drive home at lunch and take the puppy out. Two. Not two puppies, but many of us have an older dog and a puppy. I know it is taboo to suggest someone get a dog for their dog, or get two dogs when they do not have time for one. But they do this with horses and pigs. If you want to raise a pig for meat, raise two because one doesn't do well by itself. If you have a horse, but you cannot afford two, get a goat, because a goat and a horse will be company for each other. Cats can be company for a dog. And some are not. But a bringing in a puppy to a home where a dog is already established makes life much better for the puppy. 

You still have to get your butt out and work with the pup, maybe the older dog too, bond with them, let them out to potty. 

As for crating a puppy for extended periods, I am not a fan of that. There are other things you can do. You can put a doggy door in your garage, an x-pen inside and a secure kennel outside. Then build a fence around your kennel so neighborhood brats will not do stupid stuff. I don't have a garage or basement, so I built a patio/sun room and I have some doggy doors in there that lead to outdoor kennels which are fenced around. 

Tinnie is currently housed with her mother in one of the in/outs into my sunroom. Kojak is housed with Lassie. Quinnie is with Babs. Ramona is in with her dam. Cujo2 is in with Hepsi. I have five others that are kenneled by themselves, but they are near other dogs, and it makes a difference, regardless to how old the dogs are. They do not like to be all alone for extended periods. 

And, I like the critters to be able to drink and potty, since I have about an hour's drive each way to work, so that's 10 hours easy. If I have to hit the grocery store or come to my parents, my dogs would be holding their bladder for way too long -- to the level of being uncomfortable. And if they are sick and have diarrhea, then they are laying in foul all day. That's not acceptable. Yes, puppies and dogs sleep a lot. But they also like to move around, run, play, roll. 

A lot of folks seem to have trouble with puppies. Puppies biting, other irritating things that they have trouble with. I don't. My pups are in with an adult, and they bite them. The adults play with them. It is amazing how much tolerance dogs actually have for puppies. But when I come home and come to see the pup, it's all about me. They can't wait to get to me, and are totally on. They are not full of pent-up energy, and they are not engaging in self-rewarding obsessive/compulsive behaviors.


----------



## cqok (May 22, 2018)

thanks for all the suggestions. Two more questions:

1,Is x-pen better than a 48" crate? Since I heard 48" crate is big enough for a puppy.

2, When the puppy is around 7 month, can I left him alone in crate/xpen for 8 hours? any behavior problems generate?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cqok said:


> thanks for all the suggestions. Two more questions:
> 
> 1,Is x-pen better than a 48" crate? Since I heard 48" crate is big enough for a puppy.
> 
> 2, When the puppy is around 7 month, can I left him alone in crate/xpen for 8 hours? any behavior problems generate?


For the purposes of crating a dog at home I look for a crate that is big enough for them to stand, sit, lay down and turn around in comfortably.
Not a fan of xpens because frankly I have never found one that will actually contain a young dog.
I invested in a 5x7x6 portable, covered dog run fastened to a lino covered 6x8 piece of plywood. It was easy to take apart and set up and when I had pups or young dogs at home that is where they went. I was very sad when I lost it. I used to set it up in the basement or in my office and a few times in a pinch it went in the kitchen.
A 7 month old pup should be ok, but you should try and have someone let him out halfway through the day.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I have 2 x-pens that I combined to make one large one - this is what I keep Rollo in when I have to leave or something! I worked pretty hard at training him to NOT up on the x-pen starting when he was pretty young 15-20 weeks? I can't remember the last time he jumped up on the sides. But IDK if it is too big of an area for the puppy - like enough room where he/she can go to the bathroom on one side and have no problem sleeping on the other!


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Keeping the puppy in a crate for 8 hours will not make them aggressive. However, if they're under 4 months old, they'll probably pee in the crate. They'll also be incredibly BORED, which will make them destructive. I would recommend dropping by in the middle of the day to give them a potty break and 10-20 minutes of playtime. Run that little puppy into the ground so it'll sleep the rest of the day. Then make sure you train and run the puppy into the ground again when you come home.

We're fortunate that my husband can work from home 3 days out of the week, but when we first got Jack, he could only manage 1, maybe 2--so I'd come home at lunch. After 4 months old, he'd have to deal with being in the crate the whole day. That said, by that point he was potty trained and was given his bed to sleep on at night (which he was so excited to have and seemed to understand he'd climbed up a couple of rungs on the "pack ladder"). Once Jack turned 10 months old and could be counted upon to not randomly chew up magazines and other paper products, we stopped leaving him in the crate at all.

So, you can try that approach. I'd argue the faster you potty train and teach the puppy not to destroy things that aren't his, the faster it can be trusted without a crate at certain points of the day.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You don't want to "run a puppy into the ground". it is bad for their health and structure. They would also need a good amount of water after this intense activity. And when will he be able to pee after this amount of water? Why get a pup in the first place if this is the practice needed? Get a retired Greyhound instead; a couch, a walk a day and love is all they require


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> You don't want to "run a puppy into the ground". it is bad for their health and structure. They would also need a good amount of water after this intense activity. And when will he be able to pee after this amount of water? Why get a pup in the first place if this is the practice needed? Get a retired Greyhound instead; a couch, a walk a day and love is all they require


I mean that metaphorically, not literally. Run them into the ground as in make them tired. Tired puppy = behaved puppy. Or would you rather someone just come home in the middle of the day, take the puppy out, and leave them still energetic and bored?

Besides, puppies don't stay puppies long. So, we should discourage working folks from getting a puppy when they'll be grown enough to manage themselves in under a year?


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm a big believer in quality over quantity. A dog can be out all day, but have no stimulation. Or crated for periods and be fully stimulated.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyrielle said:


> I mean that metaphorically, not literally. Run them into the ground as in make them tired. Tired puppy = behaved puppy. Or would you rather someone just come home in the middle of the day, take the puppy out, and leave them still energetic and bored?
> 
> Besides, puppies don't stay puppies long. So, we should discourage working folks from getting a puppy when they'll be grown enough to manage themselves in under a year?



As much as I dislike likening dogs to kids, it can correlate somewhat. Would you get a baby and leave it strapped in a car seat for 8-10 hours while you work, and 8-10 hours when you sleep. You've heard of kids with flat spots on their heads, because the day-care workers left them in the car seats all day -- that is kind of what you are doing with a puppy. 

Mental AND physical growth are affected. You put them in a small crate so that they will not potty in the crate -- that is what the divider is for. To keep the crate small and adjust as the puppy grows. But it means that for countless hours, this puppy is laying on the same type of flooring, unable to run, unable to walk around, and if he does poop or pee, he will be stuck laying in it, which causes issues. 

The USDA, or each state's department of agriculture has a minimum requirement for dogs kept by breeders, for the size of the kennel. For GSD-sized dogs, the kennel needs to be 4'x16' in Ohio. The reason is that the dog needs to be able to reach a running pace. 

Now let's talk about development. Do you realize how much growth there is in that first year. Dogs are near about fully grown by 12 months. They fill out more, but they reach their adult height and length. They go from 1 pound at birth to 75 pounds in one year. Physically, what does that mean. Children don't do that. They go from what 8 pounds to 15? What does a one year old child weigh? 

A puppy at 1 year is sexually mature, it still has some puppy-energy, and may make some puppy mistakes, it may not be protective, but it is mostly an adolescent canine, with most of its learning, long-term development set. You can still teach the dog things, but its concrete learning is done. Yes, it is easier to set certain behaviors at a very early stage -- 8-10 weeks to 4-5 months, something like that. They are like sponges. 

Only you want that sponge in a box for 20 out of 24 hours? And what are you doing with the puppy for those few hours between coming home from work and bed and bed and getting ready for work? No way does quality trump quantity. 

So yes, maybe this IS NOT a good time to bring home a puppy. I work full time, live alone, sleep, and own a puppy. The puppy can run, play, relieve itself, drink whenever it wants. And it is in with its mother, which means that she is not alone, and is constantly interacting with someone. It is not tied in a carseat facing a wall, which is EXACTLY what you are suggesting. 

It's not ideal. Ideally, my bitch would be kenneled elsewhere, and the puppy would be with me learning everything I do, sometimes with another dog, sometimes without. But, she will develop her mind and body as normal to what a dog ought as we can make it, and keep the critters safe. When we take puppies away from their dam it is so that they will bond with their human family. We have to take the place of the dam. Sometimes we cannot give 24/7 attention to the puppy. The dam, in the wild is usually with her puppies, or has another bitch or dog with her pups while she is hunting, until the pups accompany her on the hunt. Dogs in the wild develop intelligence, they learn from each other. 

Dogs learn nothing in a crate. We do have to keep them safe. But sometimes we do have to make decisions BEFORE we bring a puppy home. Mature decisions. It isn't practical for everyone to have someone come in 3 times during the work day to take care of our dog. If your retired, but young mother lives next door and loves dogs, maybe that works for you. But for most of us, the dog is in a box for 8 hours. It isn't fair. 

Go to the shelter and bring home an adult dog. Next year, when that dog is trained, and bonded, and where you want it to be, then bring in a puppy, and your build a kennel system of some sort where you can keep both dogs, separate and alongside, or together. Don't leave your baby in a car seat for 15 hours a day either.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have seen studies that state adult dogs sleep an average of 12 hours a day. I wonder how many hours a young puppy sleeps.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I work in a grooming shop, and any puppy that I've gotten has gone to work with me every day, until it was finally old enough to stay home. I have a great set-up at work. A Great Dane sized crate, with a water bucket. Toys, bully sticks. Plenty of room for a puppy to stretch out and walk around. They do sleep a LOT. Of course puppies are a big distraction from actually working, lol, so we take them out and play with them frequently. Mine have all learned to potty on a leash, with major distractions - sirens, motorcycles, trailers, all sorts of noisiness going on outside the shop. Riding in a car every day too. I feel fortunate to have my dogs be able to experience that. 

I see firsthand what a dog does all day in a crate. They need to get out at regular intervals and have some sort of stimulation. 

Since I have multiple dogs, I have built in playmates for a puppy when we're at home. It's been helpful to have Russ and Carly to wrestle around with Scarlet. She's not much of a baby anymore. She'll be 2 in August!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen studies that state adult dogs sleep an average of 12 hours a day. I wonder how many hours a young puppy sleeps.


I wonder how they conduct those studies. A dog confined to a small kennel or crate with no stimulation will sleep more. What else is there to do? I think you can condition a dog to more exercise or to more sleep. I know Quinnie sleeps for exactly 3 hours at night. Then she starts playing. Then she starts waking me up to get me to let her outside, so she can wake up and tick off the others.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I wonder how they conduct those studies. A dog confined to a small kennel or crate with no stimulation will sleep more. What else is there to do? I think you can condition a dog to more exercise or to more sleep. I know Quinnie sleeps for exactly 3 hours at night. Then she starts playing. Then she starts waking me up to get me to let her outside, so she can wake up and tick off the others.


Sage was famous for waltzing through my bedroom at night to check on me. Poke me with her nose, wake me up, then wander back to where she came from!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> Sage was famous for waltzing through my bedroom at night to check on me. Poke me with her nose, wake me up, then wander back to where she came from!


Quinnie brings me things: 
My house shoes -- when she gets done chewing them, because I won't let her out without them. 
Her toys, the soggier the better. 

The toilet brush does get me moving. 

If she brings me the plunger, we are going to have a discussion.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Aren’t they fun, lol?


----------



## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

selzer said:


> Quinnie brings me things:
> My house shoes -- when she gets done chewing them, because I won't let her out without them.
> Her toys, the soggier the better.
> 
> ...



Genali has already brought me the plunger. We had a lil chat.

Tonight, she brought me the leash, but I didn't move. Then she stole my shoes off my feet and carried them to the door. sigh. We went for a walk. Darn dog has no mercy.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Genalis_mom said:


> Tonight, she brought me the leash, but I didn't move. Then she stole my shoes off my feet and carried them to the door. sigh. We went for a walk. Darn dog has no mercy.


Who trained who??


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pytheis said:


> Who trained who??


And this is the story of life, Grasshopper. Those of us who have dogs that we trust anywhere with anyone and who are absolutely wonderfully "trained", well, we have learned how to be trained properly by the dogs, so that we can know exactly what to do, to get them to respond the way we want.


----------



## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

@Pytheis

Well, you hit that nail right on the head, lol. Of course, Genali was only thinking of herself, but she was right, it WAS time for me to get up and walk. She is quite literally my personal trainer as I recover from this surgery. I am tired and weak still, but I will stay that way unless I get up and move! So, you can view it as the dog training me if you want, but I see it more as me reluctantly admitting that the darn dog was right, it was time for me to get off my butt, because if I didn't I was going to be super stiff and sore.

I absolutely HATE it when the dog is right like that. Gotta be grateful though, I am healing quite nicely! :grin2:


----------

