# Need Advice Badly



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

I am not a novice. I have had five German Shepherd Dogs in my lifetime. My current dog Marnie is proving to be a challenge though and one I am not sure I can tackle. She is seven months old now.

We got her when she was seven weeks old from a Hobby Breeder. She is a pure bred but we didn't get her papers. We met her mother and an older half brother. No signs of aggression.

From the second day we brought her home she was constantly mouthing. It never stopped. At first my sister who visits often and I just put it off to normal play biting.

We tried taking her to pre K puppy school. She was too scared of the other puppies and we ended up having to leave because she was too disruptive.

I tired all suggestions for dealing with the play biting. Yelling ouch, shaking penny can, hiding my hands, being the tree, etc. Nothing. 

At one point I consulted a rescue organization as to whether I should surrender her because she doesn't show remorse when she hurts like my previous Shepherds had. They said they didn't feel she is aggressive just a very stubborn independent alpha female.

We decided to keep her and we went to a master trainer recommended by the rescue.

She too said dog is not aggressive just a very stubborn Alpha female. At one point she even did the alpha huff back to Melissa.

The trainer recommended a vibration collar. Unfortunately Marnie became collar smart right away. The minute its off she starts biting again.

We have been working with the trainer and collar for months now. She is still having for lack of a better word "fits". We can be out playing in the yard and all of a sudden she runs up snarling, grabs my arms and clamps down. I say off, she will stop but then starts biting my ankle.

She just did it when I gave her the go to bed command after she'd been out for two hours and I needed to crate her.

I usually end up grabbing her collar, getting her in a restraint hold, and just keep repeating calm down. She will get all docile acting but the minute I let go, she starts again. So I end up grabbing her collar and crating her.

She doesn't do it all the time, it just seems to come out of the blue.

She doesn't break the skin but leaves swollen painful black and blue marks. She's fine with strangers but if someone stays for more than a half hour she starts mouthing them too.

My other dogs went through mouthing stages but stopped and drooped ears and lowered head when they were given verbal reprimand. Marnie just does it harder with no signs of remorse.

I am starting to worry that she isn't just going to grow out of it like the others did. She's spayed now but that didn't calm her.

The thing is she responded to the other training great. She comes when called, knows her name, leave it in terms of things she is not supposed to have, sit stays, off etc. She doesn't listen well on the down or down stay.

Melissa said it is starting to concern her that she only responds when the collar is on for the not biting. She wants to try a few more things, but at this point I am wondering whether I am the best fit as a parent for Marnie? I just can't seem to get her past this.

I already love her and don't want to give her up but I don't want her hurting anyone else or to get hurt herself. The closer we get the harder this is going to be if she doesn't stop. 

The rescue I spoke with told me that day when she was younger that they would still take her for me and find me another dog ASAP with a less dominant personality, if I did decided later on that this isn't the right match. They liked my history as an owner, how clearly attached I am to Marnie, and how I interacted with their other dogs.

I guess I am asking whether anyone thinks this is just still normal play biting that I should keep trying to curb or something I should legitimately be concerned enough about to rehome her?


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Following...


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Have you tried either carrying treats and toys with you at all times for redirection purposes? For example if she is biting you pull out a toy(tug would be good) and put that in her mouth, play with her, let her win, repeat and walk away. Maybe even break into an obedience session. She bites, tell her no, put her in a sit and teach a watch me. You have to make sure she doesn't think she is getting rewarded for the biting, timing is everything. I would start with the tug.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

My girl used to be much more like this. Maturity has helped ( she's two).


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Have you tried either carrying treats and toys with you at all times for redirection purposes? For example if she is biting you pull out a toy(tug would be good) and put that in her mouth, play with her, let her win, repeat and walk away. Maybe even break into an obedience session. She bites, tell her no, put her in a sit and teach a watch me. You have to make sure she doesn't think she is getting rewarded for the biting, timing is everything. I would start with the tug.


Also wondering about this...

Except, I would NOT recommend putting a toy in her mouth and playing with her after she starts mouthing. That is just rewarding the behavior. I would ask for something like a sit or hand touch to break up the behavior, then reward and redirect. You should pay attention to be able to give her a tug and play BEFORE she starts mouthing. It's easy to tell dogs what not to do, but unless you give them an appropriate outlet (tell them what TO do) it doesn't always work well.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Also wondering about this...
> 
> Except, I would NOT recommend putting a toy in her mouth and playing with her after she starts mouthing. That is just rewarding the behavior. I would ask for something like a sit or hand touch to break up the behavior, then reward and redirect. You should pay attention to be able to give her a tug and play BEFORE she starts mouthing. It's easy to tell dogs what not to do, but unless you give them an appropriate outlet (tell them what TO do) it doesn't always work well.


I should have said going to bite not biting. You are correct. No rewards for doing something bad. I would think with this dog it can be assumed that she is going to bite if she is coming at the owner. Pull out the tug before she get there. I'm slightly concerned with giving treats to a dog that doesn't seem to understand what she is doing is wrong. The timing with the treats will have to be spot on. The toy will probably work better for now.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

She sounds like a good German Shepherd pup to me. 

First off if you just put the collar on when the dog starts to bite then of course it's going to become collar smart. If the trainer can't even prevent your dog from becoming collar smart you need to get a new trainer. 

Also you haven't tried everything. Put a prong on and when she bites, correct her hard. Or just smack her hard. After correcting her, immediately redirect her to a toy and if she engages the toy, praise her. That usually solves the problem. 

Exercise also helps. If you are unwilling to do those things then it's probably better to rehome her to a more experienced home.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> She sounds like a good German Shepherd pup to me.
> 
> First off if you just put the collar on when the dog starts to bite then of course it's going to become collar smart. If the trainer can't even prevent your dog from becoming collar smart you need to get a new trainer.
> 
> ...


If you're unwilling to hit your dog, you need to rehome it? 

OP, please don't hit your dog. It doesn't sound like she has very strong nerves to begin with, that's a great way to create a truly aggressive dog.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

she doesn't show remorse. 

amazing stuff I read on this forum


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The fact that she is fine with the trainers says it's kinda about you? No matter couple of things you can do and they require only time and patience and they might just do the trick!  

Post 30 here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging-3.html


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Can you please PM me the name of your trainer? I may have an alternative trainer for you


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I should have said going to bite not biting. You are correct. No rewards for doing something bad. I would think with this dog it can be assumed that she is going to bite if she is coming at the owner. Pull out the tug before she get there. I'm slightly concerned with giving treats to a dog that doesn't seem to understand what she is doing is wrong. The timing with the treats will have to be spot on. The toy will probably work better for now.


I would think food may calm her down a little, and could be easier to distract/anticipate with.

Like, every time the dogs comes near you, make it obvious you have food and lure into a sit/feed for calm behavior. Fade the lure. Just like you may do for a dog jumping on you.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> If you're unwilling to hit your dog, you need to rehome it?
> 
> OP, please don't hit your dog. It doesn't sound like she has very strong nerves to begin with, that's a great way to create a truly aggressive dog.


Hit/correct. Same difference. 

Isn't it amazing ipo dogs don't have this mouthing problem even though they are generally hard high drive dogs?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> Hit/correct. Same difference.
> 
> Isn't it amazing ipo dogs don't have this mouthing problem even though they are generally hard high drive dogs?


It's not amazing at all that highly biddable, very strong nerved dogs with experienced handlers have dogs that behave well and don't mouth them. Is that a serious question?

Hitting and correcting are not the same AT ALL.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> Hit/correct. Same difference.
> 
> Isn't it amazing ipo dogs don't have this mouthing problem even though they are generally hard high drive dogs?



huh? I have an IPO dog and I've never hit him. He doesn't mouth. His dad has never been hit and he's going to France in Oct for the WUSV. His mom has never been hit and she's competed at Nationals with a SchH3.

Hitting and correcting are NOT the same difference. One is abuse.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I know someone whose dog bites, he's bitten everyone in the family and outsiders. serious bites. it all started the same way, when he was a pup. as they themselves now say, if they dealt with it then they wouldn't have a 15 month old 100 lb dog that needs to be isolated, muzzled and have 3k and going spent on training 

here's my problem with the positive only trainers. I was helping her find a trainer. the only one that took her on is a force trainer. the pure positive trainer that knocks force and dubs anyone using force as lazy said he should be pts

I was actually excited before I asked her. I thought, here goes a trainer that is so into the dogs being trained positive and be happy and she has solutions for everything a dog throws at her (we exchanged many long emails and I was really excited about her for my dog), surely she'd be able to help her. I was stunned when she not only said thst he should be pts (going by my description) but that she recommended pts more than she likes to think about. 

to me, if your methods don't work on all dogs then they don't work and you can't knock force. 

at some point positive methods don't work. a dog that has been biting for a while needs some force. the sooner the better. before it's at a point where it's been so ingrained thst the best trainer can't fix it in a few sessions.

ETA I'm not talking about hitting. I don't believe in hitting dogs. I mean corrections. collar pops or ecollar.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Hitting and correcting are NOT the same difference. One is abuse.


Yeah it is. Pain is pain.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well if we are boarding the scope of discussion. And I am 'NOT" addressing the OP. Any tool any system can be abused. 

Most folks have never seen a red zone zone dog (and not saying this is such a dog!) But when you do, you quickly learn the limits of Positive only! If your a one trick pony... well your screwed!

Same deal with force only most dogs it works with some dogs it doesn't!

It's about out "thinking" your dog! If I have a problem with a dog... I don't think.."what's wrong with this stupid dog...I think what am I doing wrong??"

So far that approach has gotten me the dogs I want and not the dogs I have, without tools or harsh corrections.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok...you go with that. There are better ways.


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Yeah it is. Pain is pain.


Correcting does not have to be painful. Correcting could be as simple as putting a dog in a crate, or a sharp stern NO,


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Also wondering about this...
> 
> Except, I would NOT recommend putting a toy in her mouth and playing with her after she starts mouthing. That is just rewarding the behavior. I would ask for something like a sit or hand touch to break up the behavior, then reward and redirect. You should pay attention to be able to give her a tug and play BEFORE she starts mouthing. It's easy to tell dogs what not to do, but unless you give them an appropriate outlet (tell them what TO do) it doesn't always work well.


I would also recommend against this. We found it reinforced the biting.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Correcting does not have to be painful. Correcting could be as simple as putting a dog in a crate, or a sharp stern NO,


Did you even read my post? When I say correct with a prong I'm pretty sure pain is implied. 

You might not know this but a stern NO doesn't work for all dogs. Especially one that's especially hard or one that hasn't had good foundation as a pup


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - sent you a PM


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> Yeah it is. Pain is pain.


Pain IS pain. A correction is not random pain, and it is not *usually* pain. It is discomfort, removing an interest, adding a negative (like absence from you) or something to startle the dog like mild stim or vibration, 9 times out of 10. 



Chip18 said:


> Most folks have never seen a red zone zone dog (and not saying this is such a dog!) But when you do, you quickly learn the limits of Positive only! If your a one trick pony... well your screwed!


I couldn't agree more. I *have* seen a red zone dog, and I've seen hard dogs. I am not purely positive, but it IS going to be my starting point, and it's what I recommend to 99% of owners, and use 99% of the time myself.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Can we please not turn this into another "positive only" vs corrections thread? That's been done to death already, and has nothing to do with the OP's issue. Let's try to be more productive, shall we?


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I would also recommend against this. We found it reinforced the biting.


Maybe that was unclear. I agree with DJEtzel here...


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Something, an odd thing, that you would never think would work helped us. ( and I know I will catch some flak for this) We brought another dog into the home. The mouthing had been getting better, but it got much better after we did this. She could appropriately use her mouth on our other dog, and play with him to get out her energy. The other thing that has helped was wearing a prong and a handle in the house. I REALLY did not want to do this, but it has helped.


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

*Distactions*

I do bring a ball on our walks for distraction purposes. The results have been mixed. Sometimes she will just drop it and start biting again other times it works and she will play.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

This is exactly what we tried. We also had her carry a ball in her mouth. We didn't try a muzzle or a gentle leader, but she wore an Elizabethan collar on walks for awhile after she got me so badly I was crying.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Shepma said:


> I do bring a ball on our walks for distraction purposes. The results have been mixed. Sometimes she will just drop it and start biting again other times it works and she will play.


Are you engaging WITH her, and tugging, etc. or just expecting her to entertain herself?


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Are you engaging WITH her, and tugging, etc. or just expecting her to entertain herself?


I play tug with her, I throw balls, I give her random commands while we are walking, she gets exercised regularly, we have had her to the vet to check for a medical issues.


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> The fact that she is fine with the trainers says it's kinda about you? No matter couple of things you can do and they require only time and patience and they might just do the trick!
> 
> Post 30 here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging-3.html


Thanks I will check out that thread.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Shepma said:


> I play tug with her, I throw balls, I give her random commands while we are walking, she gets exercised regularly, we have had her to the vet to check for a medical issues.


So while she is tugging, she will out the ball or toy and start mouthing you instead? Does she act this way when you use food to reward her for easy, calm behaviors?


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Are you engaging WITH her, and tugging, etc. or just expecting her to entertain herself?


You and a lot of other people are missing the point. You don't have to constantly engage with your dog so that it doesn't mouth you. 

You teach the dog that mouthing is an inappropriate form of play no matter the situation. 

Btw a good game smack on the nose for biting you isn't random pain. Are you kidding? It's just as direct and clear as a prong correction. If your dog is wearing a prong then correct with prong. If you don't have one on when your dog is mouthing you then your hand is just as good of a correction tool. 

Some people call that abuse. Others call it discipline. Just like some parents spank their kids and others send them to their room and take the TV away. 

The op was tried the stern NO. Tried the redirect. Tried various things and that's why she's here. Try something new. Make it clear to the dog that mouthing is not allowed.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Shepma said:


> I do bring a ball on our walks for distraction purposes. The results have been mixed. Sometimes she will just drop it and start biting again other times it works and she will play.


Have you noticed what triggers the biting? Is it boredom, her way of playing, or maybe a stress reliever?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> You and a lot of other people are missing the point. You don't have to constantly engage with your dog so that it doesn't mouth you.
> 
> You teach the dog that mouthing is an inappropriate form of play no matter the situation.
> 
> ...


I kinda agree with you. My male is a big boy and when I got him he was still mouthing and doing some biting. It hurt. I told him no, smacked him in the nose(it wasn't hard, just to get the point across) and gave him a toy. He stopped after about a week.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Hitting is a good way to end up with a face shy dog. I' ve been rehabilitating one for a year ( same nipper). PM me if you must know the story as I don't feel comfortable sharing details.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

*you make "leave*



simba405 said:


> Btw a good game smack on the nose for biting you isn't random pain. Are you kidding? It's just as direct and clear as a prong correction. If your dog is wearing a prong then correct with prong. If you don't have one on when your dog is mouthing you then your hand is just as good of a correction tool.
> 
> Some people call that abuse. Others call it discipline. Just like some parents spank their kids and others send them to their room and take the TV away.
> 
> The op was tried the stern NO. Tried the redirect. Tried various things and that's why she's here. Try something new. Make it clear to the dog that mouthing is not allowed.


Oh is that what the "hitting" the dog was about?? 

I never did that myself but I'd hardly call a pop on the nose abusive?? No one is saying "B" slap the dog into next week?

If you make 'NO" or "LEAVE IT" loud enough and unpleasant enough, most dogs will get the message pretty quick!

Uh Oh...momma did not like that???


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I popped the collar and also a week or so mouthing stopped. I never had the landshark phase and didn't know there was a name for it and people go through months of this


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hitting is a good way to end up with a face shy dog.


You don't haul off and slap them. I held his face and hit the top of his nose and looked at him and said No. Honestly the way I said no probably made him understand that it wasn't allowed.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I am talking about an entirely different situation. My dog has been slowly getting over hand shyness for a year. If you want to discuss it PM me as I can't share details.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

simba405 said:


> You and a lot of other people are missing the point. You don't have to constantly engage with your dog so that it doesn't mouth you.
> 
> You teach the dog that mouthing is an inappropriate form of play no matter the situation.
> 
> ...


What if "said" pain from smacking the muzzle is not enough? Do you come back with a harder smack? What if this elevates the dog into a self preservation mode and they retaliate to the smack? The smack directly relates the pain given to the dog back to the handler. With an experienced handler, chances are better, but a more timid handler, well, the eventual outcome may not be good depending on the dog. By the way, what is the appropriate level of force to use in this case? Before you answer, my dog was much worse than the OP's dog. I have had experience physically correcting dogs before and I no longer do this. There are much better ways to deal with this.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Have you noticed what triggers the biting? Is it boredom, her way of playing, or maybe a stress reliever?


I think boredom is an issue and if she is jumping up on a table or stealing something she's not supposed to have, if I say leave it and the e-collar isn't on she will leave the object but start biting me instead.

It's so strange I've had four previous Shepherds and have never had this much trouble training one to stop the mouthing.

The e collar is on most of the day when she is out, except first thing in the morning when potty break takes first priority and the last play session of the night.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> You and a lot of other people are missing the point. You don't have to constantly engage with your dog so that it doesn't mouth you.


 That's exactly how you start the process. If you can engage and teach the dog an appropriate way to interact, you can break the habit/desire to bite/mouth and you can engage less/less. I do NOT use aversives on puppies of any sort other than a verbal interruption ("Hey you!") and use this method to teach my dogs not to mouth. I've NEVER had a mouthy puppy for more than a week or so, and I've raised a lot of puppies. I teach this is my puppy classes and it has worked just fine for my students for the last year as well. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Hitting is a good way to end up with a face shy dog. I' ve been rehabilitating one for a year ( same nipper). PM me if you must know the story as I don't feel comfortable sharing details.





jafo220 said:


> What if "said" pain from smacking the muzzle is not enough? Do you come back with a harder smack? What if this elevates the dog into a self preservation mode and they retaliate to the smack? The smack directly relates the pain given to the dog back to the handler. With an experienced handler, chances are better, but a more timid handler, well, the eventual outcome may not be good depending on the dog. By the way, what is the appropriate level of force to use in this case? Before you answer, my dog was much worse than the OP's dog. I have had experience physically correcting dogs before and I no longer do this. There are much better ways to deal with this.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 This.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Shepma said:


> I think boredom is an issue and if she is jumping up on a table or stealing something she's not supposed to have, if I say leave it and the e-collar isn't on she will leave the object but start biting me instead.


 
So you say leave it, and she leaves the table, then comes across the room to bite you? Why aren't you there with a toy or food reward to give her for obeying your command and to prevent her from mouthing you?


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> That's exactly how you start the process. If you can engage and teach the dog an appropriate way to interact, you can break the habit/desire to bite/mouth and you can engage less/less. I do NOT use aversives on puppies of any sort other than a verbal interruption ("Hey you!") and use this method to teach my dogs not to mouth. I've NEVER had a mouthy puppy for more than a week or so, and I've raised a lot of puppies. I teach this is my puppy classes and it has worked just fine for my students for the last year as well.


You keep coming back to puppies and some pet class you reach. How many of them are German shepherds? How many of them are older than 6 months? 

You let a dog have a self rewarding behavior like mouthing it's owner for months and then expect it to suddenly redirect to a toy? A toy is not more fun than a yelping human. 

Clearly the only thing that has worked with this dog is pain. The Ecollar stops the dog from mouthing. So correct the dog.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> What if "said" pain from smacking the muzzle is not enough? Do you come back with a harder smack? What if this elevates the dog into a self preservation mode and they retaliate to the smack? The smack directly relates the pain given to the dog back to the handler. With an experienced handler, chances are better, but a more timid handler, well, the eventual outcome may not be good depending on the dog. By the way, what is the appropriate level of force to use in this case? Before you answer, my dog was much worse than the OP's dog. I have had experience physically correcting dogs before and I no longer do this. There are much better ways to deal with this.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If the dog retaliates then it's clear that you've been unfair to the dog multiple times. The dog doesn't relatiate the first time it happens. It retaliates when it's fed up with you being unfair. If a pup gets defensive on you then you are bordering on abuse. 

You don't correct the dog and leave it at that. You praise the dog twice as much when it does the right thing. Correct for the mouthing and immediately redirect to a toy and if dog plays with toy celebrate in a happy high pitched voice like you just sucked a tank of helium. You must make mouthing you as unpleasant as humanly possible and playing with a toy as fun as you can make it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> If the dog retaliates then it's clear that you've been unfair to the dog multiple times. The dog doesn't relatiate the first time it happens. It retaliates when it's fed up with you being unfair.


That would depend on the dog, not the number of times he's been unfairly corrected. If you have a hard dog and give a correction it deems unfair, it may come up the leash at you on the first time. Or it may be the 10th.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> You keep coming back to puppies and some pet class you reach. How many of them are German shepherds? How many of them are older than 6 months?
> 
> You let a dog have a self rewarding behavior like mouthing it's owner for months and then expect it to suddenly redirect to a toy? A toy is not more fun than a yelping human.
> 
> Clearly the only thing that has worked with this dog is pain. The Ecollar stops the dog from mouthing. So correct the dog.


 I've raised two shepherds myself in the last 5 years. I've taught hundreds of puppies in - yes- pet classes. (aged 4 mos+) Pets just like the OPs. I'd say 10-20% have been GSDs or GSD mixes. I have boarded and trained a few adolescent GSDs. 

Clearly the only thing that has been done consistently is pain. Not correctly, though. Positive reinforcement in the correct fashion has not been tried. I would like to see that tried before recommending "smacking" the dog. As I've said, I'm not 100% against aversives. I have and do use them. When they are _necessary _not when they are _convenient, _because there *is* a large chance of them backfiring (that's why I get most of the students I do.  ).


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> I've raised two shepherds myself in the last 5 years. I've taught hundreds of puppies in - yes- pet classes. (aged 4 mos+) Pets just like the OPs. I'd say 10-20% have been GSDs or GSD mixes. I have boarded and trained a few adolescent GSDs.
> 
> Clearly the only thing that has been done consistently is pain. Not correctly, though. Positive reinforcement in the correct fashion has not been tried. I would like to see that tried before recommending "smacking" the dog. As I've said, I'm not 100% against aversives. I have and do use them. When they are _necessary _not when they are _convenient, _because there *is* a large chance of them backfiring (that's why I get most of the students I do.  ).


This is why we literally tried everything before trying an aversive. I wish you were closer so we could train with you!


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

simba405 said:


> If the dog retaliates then it's clear that you've been unfair to the dog multiple times. The dog doesn't relatiate the first time it happens. It retaliates when it's fed up with you being unfair. If a pup gets defensive on you then you are bordering on abuse.


There are PLENTY of dogs that I know of that have or very obviously WOULD retaliate the first time you haul off on them. I have known plenty that have snapped at or became shy after one hand correction towards STRANGERS, which is where the most danger lies. You've shown you do not have the experience with dogs to be recommending these things if you think what you just said is true.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Looks like, based on some of your firsts posts (I'm talking to you, simba405) and threads, barely a year ago, that it is true that you do not have the knowledge or experience necessary to be making such broad generalizations about what a dog will or will not do, let alone tell someone how to correct their dog with physical punishment.


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> If you're unwilling to hit your dog, you need to rehome it?
> 
> OP, please don't hit your dog. It doesn't sound like she has very strong nerves to begin with, that's a great way to create a truly aggressive dog.


Yes! I always shudder when I read threads like this and see people advising you to just smack a dog around. This dog is still mouthing and ignoring corrections, so it already sounds like he doesn't respect his owner. Why on earth would you want to smack his nose? A dog that doesn't respect his owner in first place is also far more likely to decide on his own if a correction is "fair" or not. 

JMO, but I would be making some changes in this dog's life. Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise. Step up the obedience and NILF. Enroll in an obedience class or nose work. Find a way to engage your dog and teach acceptable behaviors (redirect before mouthing with tugs etc). This will help you build a better relationship with your dog and teach the dog to respect you.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

osito23 said:


> Yes! I always shudder when I read threads like this and see people advising you to just smack a dog around. This dog is still mouthing and ignoring corrections, so it already sounds like he doesn't respect his owner. Why on earth would you want to smack his nose? A dog that doesn't respect his owner in first place is also far more likely to decide on his own if a correction is "fair" or not.
> 
> JMO, but I would be making some changes in this dog's life. Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise. Step up the obedience and NILF. Enroll in an obedience class or nose work. Find a way to engage your dog and teach acceptable behaviors (redirect before mouthing with tugs etc). This will help you build a better relationship with your dog and teach the dog to respect you.


Fantastic wording right here!


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

The point to my asking Simba was unless you are a highly experienced trainer, inflicting physical punishment on dog for correction is like in my mind a last resort. Also there are techniques to this that are not commonly practiced by even novice handlers nor should be. That's the point I was trying to make. Us novice handlers should not attempt physical corrections.


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> The point to my asking Simba was unless you are a highly experienced trainer, inflicting physical punishment on dog for correction is like in my mind a last resort. Also there are techniques to this that are not commonly practiced by even novice handlers nor should be. That's the point I was trying to make. Us novice handlers should not attempt physical corrections.


Understood. I don't see corrections as a last resort. I see it as a part of balanced training but I'll leave this thread alone.


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> So while she is tugging, she will out the ball or toy and start mouthing you instead? Does she act this way when you use food to reward her for easy, calm behaviors?


Not with treats. Treats do distract her for awhile. She doesn't like the Kong bones but I bought her some of those red barn marrow bones and fill them with treats or cheese. Those keep her happy for about 20 minutes

She's not food aggressive, or toy aggressive. You can take them from her no problem. When were playing fetch she will get bored doing it and either drop the ball where she is standing and come back and bite or just not go chase it at all and bite. I think she needs more of a variety of activity.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Here is my opinion and recommendation for the OP. I would contact Lou Castle and ask his opinion on this. The reason is he utilizes the e-collar in his training methods. The e-collar is how I tamed my dog down to the point he rarely if ever lays a tooth on anyone anymore. It's not just about using it as a correction tool. It's also used as a training and obedience tool that allows what I self label a "soft owner" as myself. If used properly, it won't take long for her to realize who runs the show and that will calm down the biting for good. But as with any tool, you need to contact an experienced qualified trainer before just strapping on an e-collar and start zapping. That's where Lou comes in. Heck of a nice guy and very experienced in this field. 

I wish I had known about him and his methods a long time ago. This is a link to his site. I would stop in and look it over and contact him. Or vise versa. He also frequents this site. How To...

I know exactly what you're going through. I wore scares on both arms for a long time, twisted an ankle that still gives me trouble and have been pulled to the ground. went through three different trainers to no avail until I went with a trainer that used e-collars. It may or may not get better with age. better off taking care of it now before you wind up getting hurt somehow.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Understood. I don't see corrections as a last resort. I see it as a part of balanced training but I'll leave this thread alone.


It's not the correction but the type of correction. A verbal "NAH" is much different than a whack on the nose or other physical correction.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

One member here had a dog with the same problem, and her husband finally got fed up, grabbed the dog and spun around and around yelling, "Dizzy time!"

After doing this a couple of times, all he had to ask the dog was, "Do you want dizzy time?" 

And he would stop biting.

Might have actually tried this had I known about this when mine was that age.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Shepma said:


> Not with treats. Treats do distract her for awhile. She doesn't like the Kong bones but I bought her some of those red barn marrow bones and fill them with treats or cheese. Those keep her happy for about 20 minutes
> 
> She's not food aggressive, or toy aggressive. You can take them from her no problem. When were playing fetch she will get bored doing it and either drop the ball where she is standing and come back and bite or just not go chase it at all and bite. I think she needs more of a variety of activity.


I read this and I'm telling you how much this bring back memories. I'm not a behaviorist, but the thing is, your dog is above you in status. I think of it as bullying.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> One member here had a dog with the same problem, and her husband finally got fed up, grabbed the dog and spun around and around yelling, "Dizzy time!"
> 
> After doing this a couple of times, all he had to ask the dog was, "Do you want dizzy time?"
> 
> ...


(I laughed) Not sarcastically, it's crazy enough it might work. :wild: OP, just have your bite suit on just in case.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shepma, if your description is really accurate, I think you need to find a different trainer. At the very least, keep a leash on the dog all the time. Don't grab the collar, that's a sure fire way to escalate things.

Ecollars can be great, but its not the best way to develop respect and if the dog respects you, it won't put its teeth on you.


----------



## Shepma (Jul 24, 2014)

I haven't ever hit a dog and am not comfortable doing so. I did try clicker/treat training "off" when she mouthed for several weeks as recommended by the positive training school. She stopped for a bit but then started again. This entailed closing a treat in my hand. Waiting while she sniffed, licked,or bit, then clicking, rewarding and saying off, as soon as she broke contact with my hand. I did try the positives first. The e collar was employed only after the other methods weren't taking. The trainer said it's not to inflict pain, it's more of a vibration that it is more of an irritating distraction to get the dog to change its focus.

I did not employ it on my own or use it without proper guidance. We are going to a certified master trainer with a lot of great recommendations. She's used by several of the local humane society's and has trained police and service canines.

I just don't get why this one thing is not getting through to her when she has learned everything else so quickly?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shepma said:


> I haven't ever hit a dog and am not comfortable doing so. I did try clicker/treat training "off" when she mouthed for several weeks as recommended by the positive training school. She stopped for a bit but then started again. This entailed closing a treat in my hand. Waiting while she sniffed, licked,or bit, then clicking, rewarding and saying off, as soon as she broke contact with my hand. I did try the positives first. The e collar was employed only after the other methods weren't taking. The trainer said it's not to inflict pain, it's more of a vibration that it is more of an irritating distraction to get the dog to change its focus.
> 
> I did not employ it on my own or use it without proper guidance. We are going to a certified master trainer with a lot of great recommendations. She's used by several of the local humane society's and has trained police and service canines.
> 
> I just don't get why this one thing is not getting through to her when she has learned everything else so quickly?


 Well, the cynical, sarcastic side of me would be saying, yeah I know, everybody's trained police dogs, but that's not important. What is important is you knowing this is probably going to lead to something serious, not just mouthing and bruises.

There's going to have to be a certain kind of balance with this dog. The right amount of showing the dog it HAS to do things and rewarding correct actions by the dog, but not bribing or falling into always trying to stop things with corrections. I'd look for a different trainer.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It sounds like you are STILL not telling her what you want her to do instead. You're telling her what not to do but she has no idea how to appropriately interact with you. I will post more later.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Let me ask this,,how much and what kind of exercise does she get on a daily basis? 

I find that dogs that are mouthy/bitey/ are attention seeking, whether it's good or bad they are getting attention from it. Usually it's a lack of exercise/hard exercise, they need "something" to do, if they aren't getting it, well the biting/mouthing is filling that 'need' for attention and something to do..


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Let me ask this,,how much and what kind of exercise does she get on a daily basis?
> 
> I find that dogs that are mouthy/bitey/ are attention seeking, whether it's good or bad they are getting attention from it. Usually it's a lack of exercise/hard exercise, they need "something" to do, if they aren't getting it, well the biting/mouthing is filling that 'need' for attention and something to do..


Exactly what I was thinking!


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Shepma said:


> I haven't ever hit a dog and am not comfortable doing so. I did try clicker/treat training "off" when she mouthed for several weeks as recommended by the positive training school. She stopped for a bit but then started again. This entailed closing a treat in my hand. Waiting while she sniffed, licked,or bit, then clicking, rewarding and saying off, as soon as she broke contact with my hand. I did try the positives first. The e collar was employed only after the other methods weren't taking. The trainer said it's not to inflict pain, it's more of a vibration that it is more of an irritating distraction to get the dog to change its focus.
> 
> I did not employ it on my own or use it without proper guidance. We are going to a certified master trainer with a lot of great recommendations. She's used by several of the local humane society's and has trained police and service canines.
> 
> I just don't get why this one thing is not getting through to her when she has learned everything else so quickly?


Just outside looking in here, as far as the e-collar goes, it seems to me the level of stim on the collar is not high enough for the distraction or situation. The collar should be enough to correct the biting. That's why I mentioned Lou's site and contacting him for advice. There is a protocol to go through setting up the correct level of stim for the dog. Not every dog responds to the same level of stim. I never once had to correct Cruz for biting using the collar, the collar during obedience training was enough. I've tried, at the advice of the last positive trainer I had, would grab the collar and hold him and say "NAH" until he calmed down enough to get back to obedience. But it never cured the biting and nipping, it was just a band aide for the real problem. Once the collar was introduced and used, the biting and nipping went away. 

As far as the treat in the hand. I can't see how this will help with biting problem.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> As far as the treat in the hand. I can't see how this will help with biting problem.


It's an impulse control exercise to improve over all impulse control. It would need to be paired with other impulse control exercises to prove useful in a more extreme case such as this, however.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> It's an impulse control exercise to improve over all impulse control. It would need to be paired with other impulse control exercises to prove useful in a more extreme case such as this, however.


Um, yeh. I used this method to teach the dog how to accept a treat from your hand gently and not take the skin off in the process. But to teach bite inhibition? 

I still feel this dog is playing the role of the leader. Until this owner establishes themselves as the new leader, I just don't see things calming down much. This is from the standpoint of owning a dog very much like the one being discussed here. Yes, some of these techniques helped for a time, but until I established myself as the leader, he basically did what he wanted and this caused a lot of conflict between the dog and myself. It was so bad at one point I almost gave up on this dog. I was one incident away from turning him over. Just couldn't pull the trigger. All this due to numerous trainers refusing to incorporate training tools to help. Once I found a trainer open to other methods, things got better almost overnight.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jafo, don't speak in euphemisms. once you used force things improved. 

a dog that has been biting for a few months needs force. if this was properly dealt with from the beginning no force would be needed, it wasn't and at this point it's past the redirecting and stuff.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> jafo, don't speak in euphemisms. once you used force things improved.
> 
> a dog that has been biting for a few months needs force. if this was properly dealt with from the beginning no force would be needed, it wasn't and *at this point it's past the redirecting and stuff*.


What do you base this opinion on?

eta; I took in a lab/husky mix, 10 months old, to foster about a year ago. He was allowed to do almost anything he wanted for his entire life, not exercised, and kept in an apartment. He would hump my leg and mouth me at the same time, leaving huge bruises if not blood. Destroyed toys my GSDs don't/can't even destroy in minutes. I had him for about 6 weeks, after week two he didn't mouth or jump on me/hump me at all anymore(or my significant other/strangers or his new family), and I didn't use a lick of force on him. Aside from the force it took me to shove him off so that I could spare my body, of course.  

My point is, not ALL dogs need force, just because a problem is bad or has been happening for a long time. Consistent positive reinforcement done CORRECTLY can cure many VERY bad behaviors. I recognize that it cannot cure all, and have no problem going on to aversives if they prove necessary, but again, I do not believe in going straight to an aversive when you haven't attempted to fix the problem positively. Based on the questions I've asked, it doesn't sound like the OP knows how to use positive reinforcement to fix this, and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone move on to +P or -R if they can't get a positive technique right. That's just setting both dog and handler up to fail.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

that it's a habit at this point. it's a reflex. it also escalates with each episode. 
it's been reinforced heavily and now the dog enjoys it so much that food or toys probably won't do. 

my experience is my dog and a few dogs i know. all shepherds and all with some aggression but diff forms


ETA like when my dog is attacking my cat he doesn't want food or toys, when my friend's dog bites on a leash nothing will distract him but a correction and so on. it seems like some things are more reinforcing than anything you can offer


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> I still feel this dog is playing the role of the leader. Until this owner establishes themselves as the new leader, I just don't see things calming down much. This is from the standpoint of owning a dog very much like the one being discussed here. Yes, some of these techniques helped for a time, but until I established myself as the leader, he basically did what he wanted and this caused a lot of conflict between the dog and myself. It was so bad at one point I almost gave up on this dog. I was one incident away from turning him over. Just couldn't pull the trigger. All this due to numerous trainers refusing to incorporate training tools to help. Once I found a trainer open to other methods, things got better almost overnight.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Did you outline your methods for making the owner leader? I'm not sure if I missed it. If not, can you elaborate? I completely agree that the owner is being walked all over - and I think there are many ways it could be fixed, but I don't know that OP has the skills to use some of those tools or methods on their own/with the trainers they have available.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> that it's a habit at this point. it's a reflex. it also escalates with each episode.
> it's been reinforced heavily and now the dog enjoys it so much that food or toys probably won't do.
> 
> my experience is my dog and a few dogs i know. all shepherds and all with some aggression but diff forms


Well, check out my story about my foster dog. When you don't give the dog the opportunity to engage in the behavior, they don't really have a choice but to forget about it and they are much more easily distracted. I don't think it's worth saying that it won't work until it's attempted.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> What do you base this opinion on?
> 
> .


I'm not speaking for Lala, but I'd base it on this:



> We can be out playing in the yard and all of a sudden she runs up snarling, grabs my arms and clamps down. I say off, she will stop but then starts biting my ankle.


 I'm not talking about hitting or huge, physical force. But consequences and no choice but to obey, yes. Positive reinforcement, yes, but probably a little later.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

to your ETA. yes, that's why I'm saying it. it is harder to fix with positive than corrections. force is faster and easier. positive takes skill, consistency, patience. if she has the skill then she wouldn't have the problem to begin with. 

but look at my ETA. ime, some things are more reinforcing to dogs than anything you can offer. I'm having problems like that with my dog and a positive only trainer saw that and was stumped. she couldn't get his attention, he wanted to sniff and completely blocked her out. she's very experienced too. she turned to me and was puzzled, she's like 'he's ignoring me!!' and he was just sniffing. there are things he enjoys more than that


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not speaking for Lala, but I'd base it on this:
> 
> I'm not talking about hitting or huge, physical force. But consequences and no choice but to obey, yes. Positive reinforcement, yes, but probably a little later.


Sorry, by asking what she based it on, I was wondering what experience she had working on this behavior in a positive manner and having it fail.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Sorry, by asking what she based it on, I was wondering what experience she had working on this behavior in a positive manner and having it fail.


I replied to your ETA. yeah, I'm actually all for positive despite what I write here. I use force very rarely and i'd try positive before I'd try force. 

but i do believe that sometimes force is needed. I'm still having problems because I can't correct my dog hard enough lol. so he's not scared of the consequences. I did try positive. I'm still trying it. he blows me off, he doesn't hear or see me. he doesn't want anything I have to offer.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't mean anything personal DJ, but your foster dog with bad manners has nothing to do with this. This dog shows an intent to bite. Bite. Withholding a treat is bad advice.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't mean anything personal DJ, but your foster dog with bad manners has nothing to do with this. This dog shows an intent to bite. Bite. Withholding a treat is bad advice.


I'm not sure I'm following? Withholding a treat? 

My story very obviously illustrates that you can most certainly fix bad behaviors identical to this one with positive reinforcement in most dogs and points to my opinion that +R should be tried first.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> What do you base this opinion on?
> 
> eta; I took in a lab/husky mix, 10 months old, to foster about a year ago. He was allowed to do almost anything he wanted for his entire life, not exercised, and kept in an apartment. He would hump my leg and mouth me at the same time, leaving huge bruises if not blood. Destroyed toys my GSDs don't/can't even destroy in minutes. I had him for about 6 weeks, after week two he didn't mouth or jump on me/hump me at all anymore(or my significant other/strangers or his new family), and I didn't use a lick of force on him. Aside from the force it took me to shove him off so that I could spare my body, of course.
> 
> My point is, not ALL dogs need force, just because a problem is bad or has been happening for a long time. Consistent positive reinforcement done CORRECTLY can cure many VERY bad behaviors. I recognize that it cannot cure all, and have no problem going on to aversives if they prove necessary, but again, I do not believe in going straight to an aversive when you haven't attempted to fix the problem positively. Based on the questions I've asked, it doesn't sound like the OP knows how to use positive reinforcement to fix this, and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone move on to +P or -R if they can't get a positive technique right. That's just setting both dog and handler up to fail.


This.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not sure I'm following? Withholding a treat?
> 
> My story very obviously illustrates that you can most certainly fix bad behaviors identical to this one with positive reinforcement in most dogs and points to my opinion that +R should be tried first.


Sorry bout that, I was rushing so that came across as pretty contentious. The reason I'm saying its completely different is the op has had the dog since 7wks and has actively been training her the whole time. This isn't a dog that was just left to do what it wanted and became a pain.

This isn't a first time owner. They come across as pretty competent and as someone who is putting in a lot of time and effort. I think at best the dog is of questionable temperament and I don't think you can fix temperament.

What she's doing by the op's description isn't just mouthing. Its a will full, intentional bite. A buzzing collar to distract, withholding the treat to teach bite inhibition, waiting for the biting to go away is only going to let it escalate till there's a serious bite. My comment about the withholding treats was just in general to different posts, but you're desire to tell the op they could reward their way past this.

I understand some people just can't stand the idea of correcting a dog and with folks like that it's probably not going to work unless they decide to get hands on help from someone competent. Sometimes, maybe that's not a huge deal if they manage everything in a safe way. I don't agree with it, but you can't force it some folks. I think the op needs some personal help from someone who will show them how to make clear to the dog, there's not going to be any biting, now. Does that make better sense?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Sorry bout that, I was rushing so that came across as pretty contentious. The reason I'm saying its completely different is the op has had the dog since 7wks and has actively been training her the whole time. This isn't a dog that was just left to do what it wanted and became a pain.
> 
> This isn't a first time owner. They come across as pretty competent and as someone who is putting in a lot of time and effort. I think at best the dog is of questionable temperament and I don't think you can fix temperament.
> 
> ...


 I don't think it's that different at all. The family that had the dog I took in tried doing stuff with him to, they just had no idea what they were doing (much like the OP) and did not make any progress because they were not using proper techniques. So he was allowed to continue the behavior. It wasn't for lack of trying, that's why they gave him up. I shouldn't have say they "allowed" him to, that was misleading. But technically they did since they couldn't fix it, do you know what I mean? He was acting the same way. Intentionally jumping to mouth me/anyone any time he was loose and able- like I said, drawing blood, bruising. It IS a mouthing behavior that was allowed to happen for far too long, as far as I am concerned. 

I'm still not sure what you're talking about with buzzing collars and withholding treats. I never mentioned anything about anything like that. 

What you're saying *doesn't* make sense, because I specifically said that I don't mind aversives at all and use them myself, but would never recommend them to fix a problem out of convenience when it can potentially be achieved in a more positive manner that hasn't been tried. I would never recommend them to someone who does not seem competent enough to use +R, as they would likely not have the proper timing for a +P and could severely ruin the dog or make things much worse. 

I absolutely agree that the OP needs help from a competent professional, whether that be +P or +R. Not what they have gotten so far. If they're going to try on their own, I stand firm by my opinion of only trying +R for sake of all things mentioned above.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I gave the OP the information of an extremely competent individual. One of the best, if not the best, on the east coast. It's up to her to decide her next move.

Just a note...I am 100% against giving advice on aggression on a forum. While most threads are actually not aggression, there are a few serious ones such as this one and I don't think anyone has any business advising without personally seeing what the dog is doing.

What I'm getting from this is that the dog purposely redirects when she doesn't get her way if there is not an e-collar on her. There will eventually be a serious bite whether with intent or by accident but someone will need stitches.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I gave the OP the information of an extremely competent individual. One of the best, if not the best, on the east coast. It's up to her to decide her next move.
> 
> Just a note...I am 100% against giving advice on aggression on a forum. While most threads are actually not aggression, there are a few serious ones such as this one and I don't think anyone has any business advising without personally seeing what the dog is doing.
> 
> What I'm getting from this is that the dog purposely redirects when she doesn't get her way if there is not an e-collar on her. There will eventually be a serious bite whether with intent or by accident but someone will need stitches.


That ^


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe, because this puppy was removed from her littermates at 7 weeks, she just hasn't learned bite inhibition properly? Puppies play with their mouths, and I know I'm not typical by allowing my puppies to mouth me, but after I've taught them a soft bite, we both enjoy the mouthing games. I hope OP takes Jax up on the trainer referral, and finds out that she's just playing hard.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I've gotten my last 4 dogs at exactly 7wks, day 49. That, in itself isn't the problem.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, and I think that used to be the common age to send them off anyhow. It was just a thought. But I know GSD puppies aren't called landsharks for nothing, lol - and I worry about them when their owners think that their playfulness is aggression instead.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I had a puppy once at exactly 49 days. She was amazing. I don't think that age would be an issue. I read once that they make the transition from mother to human at that age but I don't believe there is anything to back that up. Our two Boxers were brought home at 5 and 6 weeks. No biting issues with them.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Are boxers chomp monsters? My brother has a boxer/mal cross - yeah, he'd walk around like he was chewing gum, lmao, just chomping at the air! But I thought that was the mal in him, IDK.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Boxers are different. Banshee ripped many pairs of my son's jeans. She would grab the back of the leg and just pull. They aren't landsharky like GSDs.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Did you outline your methods for making the owner leader? I'm not sure if I missed it. If not, can you elaborate? I completely agree that the owner is being walked all over - and I think there are many ways it could be fixed, but I don't know that OP has the skills to use some of those tools or methods on their own/with the trainers they have available.


I have no business trying to outline a training procedure for this dog. I am also saying the behaviors of the OP's dog mirror what my dog WAS like. I have not seen the dog and owner interact with each other. Nor have I seen the owner and dog in a training session together. So I really can't deal out advice other than offer suggestions to find a trainer that can help the owner establish themselves as the leader. There may be other implications or triggers setting this dog in motion. You don't know until you can visually see it happen. That's why I'm trying to be careful not to throw something out there blindly in hopes it might work. The dkg seems very assertive, you don't want to put the owner in a position of possible injury by driving the dog higher. That why I have replied in the manor I have.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I gave the OP the information of an extremely competent individual. One of the best, if not the best, on the east coast. It's up to her to decide her next move.
> 
> Just a note...I am 100% against giving advice on aggression on a forum. While most threads are actually not aggression, there are a few serious ones such as this one and I don't think anyone has any business advising without personally seeing what the dog is doing.
> 
> What I'm getting from this is that the dog purposely redirects when she doesn't get her way if there is not an e-collar on her. There will eventually be a serious bite whether with intent or by accident but someone will need stitches.


I have to agree. All you can do is point them in a direction and hopefully they go that way.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> I have no business trying to outline a training procedure for this dog. I am also saying the behaviors of the OP's dog mirror what my dog WAS like. I have not seen the dog and owner interact with each other. Nor have I seen the owner and dog in a training session together. So I really can't deal out advice other than offer suggestions to find a trainer that can help the owner establish themselves as the leader. There may be other implications or triggers setting this dog in motion. You don't know until you can visually see it happen. That's why I'm trying to be careful not to throw something out there blindly in hopes it might work. The dkg seems very assertive, you don't want to put the owner in a position of possible injury by driving the dog higher. *That why I have replied in the manor I have.*
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


By being vague?  

I never said to outline a training procedure. You were very vague about what an owner in this position needs to do or should be and I wondered how you would go about doing that and what you meant by it.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> By being vague?
> 
> I never said to outline a training procedure. You were very vague about what an owner in this position needs to do or should be and I wondered how you would go about doing that and what you meant by it.


Go back a few pages and you will see I tried to advise the owner to contact Lou Castle and put a link to his site in there also. That's what I advised the owner in this situation to do. I've chatted with lou before and came away with the firm feeling this guy is sharp with dogs and happens to be up on e-collar training in a non abusive way through his techniques. If there was a way and he felt comfortable outlining something I'm sure he would and could. But I cannot speak for him and it's up to the owner to contact him. He may have done the same thing Jax did and guided them to a good trainer to help. Some of the other verbage I was writing was dealing with my personal experience and trying to pull some information out of the OP because I was curious as to what their trainer was doing to correct this, and really interested in why the e-collar is not working in this case. My own curiosity. 

I'm sorry for being vague but sometimes not being vague either derails the thread or you get a big disagreement between posters and nothing gets solved. It happened in another training thread recently. Besides, the e-collar topic is a very sensitive discussion and can explode a thread also. The last thing I want to do is derail a thread. 

I'll PM you with what I did in my situation in more detail if that's fine with you. I just don't want somebody coming across this thread with a problem and they think this would solve it and wind up just making it worse.


----------

