# Do You Think A Dog Can Be "Too Trained"?



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I wanted some opinions on whether some of you up here think a dog can be 'too trained'? That probably sounds crazy to some people,but what I am referring to is people who ARE ALWAYS telling their dog(s) what to do,and the dogs almost become robotic to the point where they don't ever have down time. The dog ALWAY has to focus on the owner even when they are just at home. I have a neighbor that has a Rottweiler/Dutch Shepherd mix who ALWAYS has to focus on him. I asked him if he was training for something in particular and the man said no, he just wants to have the ultimate control over his dogs.He even says that he make the dogs maintain a focused heel on a 3-4 mile walk. I haven't seen this personally.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

IMO, it could be that he just wants his dog to be under control while outside...dogs without training can be a huge liability if out of control.

It could be his relationship inside the house is less formal and more relaxed?
Idk.?

And, yes, as far as the "robotic" comment...I have seen dogs comply out of fear. Don't know / can't say if this is the situation here.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I would hope it's less formal inside. I am all for training,but I don't make my dogs give me focus to the point where they can't even look away from me. I also don't what kind of issues his dog may have had either.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My son and I had this conversation just today. I showed him a video someone posted on here of a GSD that was trained very well. My son said that he doesn't want our dogs trained that well...I kinda looked at him and asked why? He says because then they can't be dogs. I'd have to agree with him. I personally don't think that dogs should be controlled to the point that they become afraid, robotic, or lose themselves. I think that would be a sad life for most dogsAn obedient dog is nice to have, but they are dogs and should be allowed to play, act goofy, and snuggle w/their owners


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

A focused heel on such a long walk is ridiculous, in my opinion.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I personally have zero issues with it provided that it is not fear-based.

I have one dog that absolutely loves obedience work. Would do it all dang day if *I* would.  Bottom line, he likes it and I like it. It has nothing to do with fear, he simply enjoys the work and the treats he earns doing it. 

I'm sure this person you're speaking of relaxes at home. He is just working hard to have a very well trained dog. I applaud that. I wish we had more owners that work like he seems to.

Now, OTOH, I know someone who uses fear for motivation and I do not like that. The dog must comply or will be yelled at -- not cool and not the way to do it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> My son and I had this conversation just today. I showed him a video someone posted on here of a GSD that was trained very well. My son said that he doesn't want our dogs trained that well...I kinda looked at him and asked why? He says because then they can't be dogs. I'd have to agree with him. I personally don't think that dogs should be controlled to the point that they *become afraid, robotic, or lose themselves*. I think that would be a sad life for most dogsAn obedient dog is nice to have, but they are dogs and should be allowed to play, act goofy, and snuggle w/their owners


Honestly I think this is on the verge of humanizing the dog just a wee too much. 

"Afraid" = fear, which isn't acceptable. "Robotic" = ? I don't know. "Lose themselves?" I have no idea what that means. A dog _loses_ himself?? 

But really, why can't an obedient dog also play, act goofy and snuggle? They can!  I hope you weren't referring to my stupid vid of the doggy pushups. (left field, yes.) Although I called that "torture," believe me, my dog was loving it.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Not really. I have seen some dogs that people thought were really well trained (robotic) but the dog was really just shut down. To me, that's not well trained. Well trained is when they enjoy being a dog but know how to make good choices and behave in their environment according to their owner's expectations.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

gsdraven said:


> Not really. I have seen some dogs that people thought were really well trained (robotic) but the dog was really just shut down. To me, that's not well trained. Well trained is when they enjoy being a dog but know how to make good choices and behave in their environment according to their owner's expectations.


I think that's a great example of "too trained." One that I had not realized for YEARS!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think that's a great example of "too trained." One that I had not realized for YEARS!


Well now you have me curious! What do you folks mean by "robotic"?

When I'm working with the one boy I referred to before, his eyes are bright, he is excited, he is watching me, his tail wags... he seems, to me, to enjoy what we are doing.

What would you classify as "robotic" behavior? Just "going thru the motions" type of thing?  (No zeal, excitement, etc.)


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

chelle said:


> What would you classify as "robotic" behavior? Just "going thru the motions" type of thing? (No zeal, excitement, etc.)


Exactly.

I have one dog in particular in mind. She was "well trained" by her handler's standards. She layed by his feet, never kissed him, would walk herself and do every command he asked but she always seemed a little sad to me (she's since passed). She would light up when she saw me and I would love on her. She adored her owner but wasn't really allowed to think for herself. She was trained. 

Some may say my Kaiser is not well trained but he listens to what I tell him and I love that he sometimes outsmarts me because it keeps me on my toes. I don't want a dog that just does what they are told.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I don't think it's possible to train a dog TOO much, as long is the training is enjoyable and rewarding for the dog.

There are some breeds that naturally WANT to be trained, like GSDs, Border Collies, etc. They will stand there and stare at you as if to say "Tell me to do something!"

I don't think that it's possible to train a dog to the point where they "lose themselves" or can't act like a dog. Provided, of course, that we're still talking about training that is enjoyable and rewarding for the dog. If we're talking about using old-school methods like punishment, fear, and avoidance, then yes, you can definitely take it too far--especially if the dog's temperament isn't suited for it. Most dogs will simply shut down after a certain point.

I know some AR types will say that it's cruel to train dogs to a high level, as it supposedly deprives them of being "dogs". Guide dogs, for example, must be trained and proofed to such a point where they cannot act like dogs in certain situations, but I'm sure that once the harness comes off, they are just as doggy as the dog next door.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

To me a dog who is robotic is going through the motions and doesn't really enjoy the training. The people that I am referring to are the ones who don't feel that a dog playing or or just being goofy from time to time 'isn't productive'. I loved the video of you and your dog and can tell that he enjoyed the training. I also agree that there are some breeds of dogs that need to be worked,but I think the way they are worked should be enjoyed by the dog.




chelle said:


> Well now you have me curious! What do you folks mean by "robotic"?
> 
> When I'm working with the one boy I referred to before, his eyes are bright, he is excited, he is watching me, his tail wags... he seems, to me, to enjoy what we are doing.
> 
> What would you classify as "robotic" behavior? Just "going thru the motions" type of thing? (No zeal, excitement, etc.)


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I don't think it's possible to train a dog TOO much, as long is the training is enjoyable and rewarding for the dog.
> 
> There are some breeds that naturally WANT to be trained, like GSDs, Border Collies, etc. They will stand there and stare at you as if to say "Tell me to do something!"
> 
> I don't think that it's possible to train a dog to the point where they "lose themselves" or can't act like a dog. Provided, of course, that we're still talking about training that is enjoyable and rewarding for the dog. If we're talking about using old-school methods like punishment, fear, and avoidance, then yes, you can definitely take it too far--especially if the dog's temperament isn't suited for it. Most dogs will simply shut down after a certain point.


Exactly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A dog that has too much obedience may be inhibited, or constantly look to the handler for instruction instead of thinking for himself. A dog may not want to be away from handler because of this as well. Send the dog away and it can't go.

There have been dogs at trials that know the routine(protection) so they do it on their own and do the exercises before the handler even commands. 
That is IMO....too much obedience, even if there is enthusiasm in the dog, but it isn't a bad thing!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Really interesting conversation here, I'm enjoying the viewpoints. 

I wouldn't enjoy the work if my dog didn't; if he was dull-eyed and bored, only doing what was told of him.

OTOH, there are times he must comply whether he likes it or not -- sitting before going out the door, etc -- and he doesn't particularly enjoy that, but it isn't up for debate. 

But as far as the real *work* goes... I don't think *he* sees it as *work*. At this point, it is fun to him. I like that about him a LOT. I see this as such a bonus - the dog likes to work obedience commands and at the same time, I'm working on a better behaved dog. Win-win.! 

He's fairly weak nerved, that's just what it is. I do believe, in my novice opinion, that obedience work has given him a LOT. Given him a focus, something to direct his energy towards. To deny that for this dog would, I think, be a disaster. He actually *needs* it. Without that work, I honestly don't think he'd ever be able to be in public.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Honestly I think this is on the verge of humanizing the dog just a wee too much.
> 
> "Afraid" = fear, which isn't acceptable. "Robotic" = ? I don't know. "Lose themselves?" I have no idea what that means. A dog _loses_ himself??
> 
> But really, why can't an obedient dog also play, act goofy and snuggle? They can!  I hope you weren't referring to my stupid vid of the doggy pushups. (left field, yes.) Although I called that "torture," believe me, my dog was loving it.


I don't think its humanizing the dog at all. Dogs can be afraid, they can be robotic(doing the motions but with no spark), and a dog that can't play or act like a dog(loses himself), maybe not the best wording. An obedient dog is one thing but as the OP posted, the total control of the person they are referring to is a bit much. My dogs are very obedient, but they also are able to smell the grass, the trees, cuddle with me, and everything else a dog should do. I didn't see the video you posted, but I'm sure that you don't "torture" your dogs


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I don't think its humanizing the dog at all. Dogs can be afraid, they can be robotic(doing the motions but with no spark), and a dog that can't play or act like a dog(loses himself), maybe not the best wording. An obedient dog is one thing but as the OP posted, the total control of the person they are referring to is a bit much. My dogs are very obedient, but they also are able to smell the grass, the trees, cuddle with me, and everything else a dog should do. I didn't see the video you posted, but I'm sure that you don't "torture" your dogs


Where I am rather "stuck" on this is why can't you have both? I think that's "where it's at."  Both. Not one or the other. A dog trained in obedience doesn't mean it is a robot-dog. 

Without seeing this person, the subject of the thread, it is basically impossible to give a true opinion.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Also, I won't lie -- I want total control of my dog. Fun is great, carefree and there is certainly a need for that in a dog's life and I love it as he does; but for control, when control is needed, it is all about what I require of him. When that level of control is required, I don't care if he likes it -- it just must be. We won't be sniffin roses at that time, he will be obedient and that is all there is to that!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Where I am rather "stuck" on this is why can't you have both? I think that's "where it's at."  Both. Not one or the other. A dog trained in obedience doesn't mean it is a robot-dog.
> 
> Without seeing this person, the subject of the thread, it is basically impossible to give a true opinion.


*The Original Thread*
_I am referring to is people who ARE ALWAYS telling their dog(s) what to do,and the dogs almost become robotic to the point where they don't ever have down time. The dog ALWAY has to focus on the owner even when they are just at home. I have a neighbor that has a Rottweiler/Dutch Shepherd mix who ALWAYS has to focus on him. I asked him if he was training for something in particular and the man said no, he just wants to have the ultimate control over his dogs.He even says that he make the dogs maintain a focused heel on a 3-4 mile walk. I haven't seen this personally._


This is the original post...one does not have to see this in person to have an opinion. You have fun with your dogs and enjoy it. You give your dogs downtime. You give your dogs play time....You are doing things the right way and you can and do have both. You have happy dogs and that is the way its suppose to be. You don't control every move they make, they do have some freedoms


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Between multiple dogs. NO. Between a single dog and an owner, YES.

Some dogs are willing to do whatever it takes to please their owner, and others are forced to do so by constraints. From your description I am seeing the latter response. Dogs will do whatever it takes to please their owner, if the conditions are ripe.


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

I used to work at a park ranger station and the state wildlife officers would come in to use our office for meetings or to consult with the park rangers. One officer had a beautiful, well-bred black lab who was the most obedient dog I'd ever seen. She would do anything the officer asked of her immediately, every time. I was always impressed with her stay. He could put her in a stay outside the office and it didn't matter what happened around her or how long he was gone, that dog would not move an inch. 

I asked him about his training methods and he told me that he basically beat the stuffing out of the dog whenever she made a mistake/didn't obey. It made such an impression on me that ever since then, I've always been a little worried about dogs who seem too perfect. I know they can be trained in positive ways to behave like this dog, but I always wonder if a dog has been physically punished to be obedient.

One would think you could tell by looking at the dog if she was trained by beating or by positive methods, but this dog seemed to love her handler and didn't act scared of him. He probably beat her for acting scared. 

More on topic, I think if a dog can't think for itself or make a decision without its handler telling it what to do, it's too obedient. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether some of you up here think a dog can be 'too trained'?


Short answer = no


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Another great question. I think it SOMETIMES depends on the breed. I've heard (and I may be completely wrong so please correct me if I am no offense taken ) that dobermans are the only type of dog that MAY turn on their master...in this case, yes I would want my dog to be as you say 'over trained'...but other than that no I wouldn't want my dog to be this way. i would always wonder if the dog is happy. My dogs are pretty unruly and get to do whatever they want and I STILL wonder if they are happy...sometimes to the point of where it makes me unhappy. Dogs IMO need to be allowed to be dogs uncontrolled unrestricted whether that means digging (in proper areas), zoomies, and on occasion disobedience (since huskies are genetically programed to be somewhat disobedient) you have to learn to laugh at it)....i say this because if a husky is working (i.e. mushing) and there is thin ice that the musher wants to go over, the husky will disobey even if the musher/master tells it to go....Just my two cents. I don't know if it's right or wrong or worth anything but in my mind it makes sense. Dogs can be right even if they are disobeying. So why would you want to overtrain a dog???


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

It seems to me like the amount of control you want to have over your dog depends very much on what you are doing with the dog and what makes the dog happiest. Some dogs are miserable when given too many choices. Some dogs need a bit more freedom.

Having the "ultimate control" over your dog just because you can...well, it makes me wonder if the owner has some personal issues. That kind of relationship doesn't sound like much fun to me. I don't want to have 100% control over my dogs, just like I don't want to have 100% control over my husband (honestly!). I like them to have some freedoms. I don't want to have to tell them when to lay down, where to lay down, when to chew a bone, when to be still. Micromanaging a relationship sounds incredibly tedious and boring.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SueDoNimm said:


> One would think you could tell by looking at the dog if she was trained by beating or by positive methods, but this dog seemed to love her handler and didn't act scared of him. He probably beat her for acting scared.


I hope you're being facetious, because beating a dog for "acting scared" will not stop them from "acting scared".

Some dogs--many Labs, in fact--are so hard-headed and pain-tolerant that it takes a lot to make an impression on them. I've heard more than one trainer say that it "takes a 2 x 4" to get the point across. While I'm sure that's hyperbole, the fact that a guy can say he beat the tar out of his dog and she remains happy, loving, and obedient says a lot about Labs.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I hope you're being facetious, because beating a dog for "acting scared" will not stop them from "acting scared"


I wondered how you can train fear out of a dog. But I think you're right; you can't. It doesn't make sense to use fear to stop fear....


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I hope you're being facetious, because beating a dog for "acting scared" will not stop them from "acting scared".
> 
> Some dogs--many Labs, in fact--are so hard-headed and pain-tolerant that it takes a lot to make an impression on them. I've heard more than one trainer say that it "takes a 2 x 4" to get the point across. While I'm sure that's hyperbole, the fact that a guy can say he beat the tar out of his dog and she remains happy, loving, and obedient says a lot about Labs.


Yes, I was being facetious. I know you can't beat the fear out of a dog.

I've just always had such a visceral reaction to people who tell me they beat their dogs as a way to train them. I know someone else who proudly describes how he beat his dog every time she went past a certain boundary in the yard and now she won't dare leave. It's great to have a dog who won't leave the yard, but I'd rather not have that and not beat my dog.

I'm glad to hear that Labs are that resilient. I've never been a big fan of Labs, so I don't know much about them. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Obedience training is controlling. It's teaching a dog to control it's natural impulses and behave in an accepted manner. If you have a good relationship with your dog, obedience will come naturally and they'll enjoy it. If you terrify a dog into behaving, that won't happen.

To the person who asked about Labs. There are hyper bullheaded labs and quiet, gentle, easily trained Labs. They need much more exercise in general than GSDs, so in contrast, they seem more difficult, but they aren't. If you have a more hyper Lab, it needs to do the kind of job it was bred for (retrieving). And it needs to be exhausted on a daily basis once it's old enough.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> The people that I am referring to are the ones who don't feel that a dog playing or or just being goofy from time to time 'isn't productive'.


I think it is impossible to tell how people interact with their dogs when they are at home with them, unless you live with them and see it first hand.

When I am out in public with my dog, regardless of whether I am in my own front yard, around the block or in another state entirely, I want my dog to be focused on me. That doesn't mean that I never allow him to be goofy or playful, just that I have decided a public setting isn't the place for that.
Sheilah


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

sit said:


> I think it is impossible to tell how people interact with their dogs when they are at home with them, unless you live with them and see it first hand.
> 
> When I am out in public with my dog, regardless of whether I am in my own front yard, around the block or in another state entirely, I want my dog to be focused on me. That doesn't mean that I never allow him to be goofy or playful, just that I have decided a public setting isn't the place for that.
> Sheilah


I think a public setting(distractions) would be very difficult to have an average pet dog maintain focus on the handler. When out and about, I want my dog to be aware of surroundings yet defer to me or check in often. 
I don't need 100% focus on me unless I demand it for a reason. Not that my dog would be a goofball, but a GSD should be "on" when out and about. I'd rather have that, than one that is tunnel visioned on whatever....meaning me, a toy or a treat.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't think a dog can be too well trained, but I think a handler can be too controlling.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Just wanted to add...let a dog/sitter or kennel know if a dog won't eat without a command. We ran into that a few times where I worked.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

sit said:


> I think it is impossible to tell how people interact with their dogs when they are at home with them, unless you live with them and see it first hand.
> 
> When I am out in public with my dog, regardless of whether I am in my own front yard, around the block or in another state entirely, I want my dog to be focused on me. That doesn't mean that I never allow him to be goofy or playful, just that I have decided a public setting isn't the place for that.
> Sheilah


Yes. This. That is what I mean/meant. I'm not a control freak with my dog/s, but in public, they must be in control.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

chelle said:


> Yes. This. That is what I mean/meant. I'm not a control freak with my dog/s, but in public, they must be in control.


Um wait, I must've been tired last night.! I did not mean in public the dogs must be in control. I mean be controlled. Forget it, I hope people know what I'm trying to say! :laugh:


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