# Bad fight between 2 dogs



## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

I'm still rattled from this one, I've had dogs fight before but last night was bad. 

I have a 8 month old intact male Shepherd, Tank, and a spayed 9 year old Corgi, Sherlock. Sherlock has been top dog and she's had a few tiffs with Tank, but they are usually over within a minute after Sherlock gives up. 

Last night Sherlock snapped at Tank over a piece of watermelon. Then it became a knock down drag out, bloody fight. Tank had Sherlock pinned and he had no intention of letting her go, she was pretty clearly submitting and screeching and he just kept going after her. 

Luckily we were able to get them separated with out any people getting hurt, but Sherlock is in rough shape. 

We are doing crate and rotate right now, but do we do a reintroduction in a couple days/when she's healed up? I want to make this work, but I also want to keep Sherlock safe.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Unless something changes, fights tend to get worse each time.

How you chose to approach this depends on how much effort you want to put in and the amount of danger you are willing to put yourself and your dogs in.

Muzzles properly conditioned and introduced are the first step.

I've successfully re-integrated two male dogs after a serious fight by clicking and treating every time they look at each other with relaxed body language.

I combined this with a very strictly enforced "no" command- dogs need to immediately stop and hit the deck, all dogs, when they hear this. Consistent and very much enforced with strong corrections. Also you have to get in the dog's heads and correct them when they are starting to think about fighting. Strong corrections. 

BUT but but, if a fight happened once, it may happen again, particularly now. You need to increase your level of interference and control with dog-dog interactions, and general life in the house. It is a process, a lifestyle change, and you always will need to be aware and in charge.

A GSD could kill a corgi. Pretty easily. Break her neck, rip out her belly, or serious puncture wounds to the skull. 

I'd involve a really experienced trainer as well. 

Good luck. Many people would decide to separate these dogs now. But with an intact male and spayed female, really they shouldn't be fighting at all (I've never seen it), and you have a better chance of success, I'd think, than say with two intact bitches. 

Please update...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

No suggestions on how to fix the conflict, but if they fight again, grab your GSD by the hind legs and lift them off the ground and pull him away to break up the fight.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

First thing I would do is never, ever, feed them together again.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> No suggestions on how to fix the conflict, but if they fight again, grab your GSD by the hind legs and lift them off the ground and pull him away to break up the fight.


Then, IF he lets go, he might turn around and bite you. Unless you are up to keeping them separate their entire lives, (eventually they'll find a loop hole) I would re-home one. Don't think that neutering will fix this.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

There could be several things going on here. Have there been tiffs or is Sherlock a bully? Herding breeds can be pretty bratty. I'm around some sort of herding breed/small dog mix. She will harass my other dog but Codi doesn't even give her the time of day when she does that. The rest of the time they play and cuddle together. It's only when Codi comes inside the house the first time. Codi though is half lab and I've noticed most of them are extremely tolerant/submissive with other dogs. German shepherds on the other hand, a lot of them don't like to back down if challenged. Probably why bitch fights are so common. 

My guess is that either Tank has Food aggression or Sherlock is tormenting him and a high value item/beginning maturity/patience running out instigated a fight where he had enough of her and let her know it. Because as others said this is a fairly unusual fight. 

I second sunflowers on not feeding them together again including treats. If giving treats like things to chew on I'd put in separate rooms or kennel one or both especially Tank. 

I'd then get strong obedience on both of them and start muzzle training Tank. I'd start off with not doing it while he's in the same room with Sherlock. While she's healing will be a good time. I'd get a good quality basket muzzle. 

I'd very closely watch how Sherlock treats Tank. If she starts picking on him put an immediate stop to it. You should be putting a stop to any tiffs preferably before they start. Some will say you need to let them work it out. That might work with some dogs but as you've just seen it can have disastrous results so I wouldn't risk it. When I lived with my dad with the two females whenever their play started getting heated it was ended immediately and I made them take a rest and get settled down to avoid playing turning into fighting. You will need to closely monitor body language and their interactions from here on out. If it's food aggression not feeding by each other should help. If it's just them not getting along you may have more trouble and heavy management during their interactions is going to be needed.


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## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

> Unless something changes, fights tend to get worse each time.
> 
> How you chose to approach this depends on how much effort you want to put in and the amount of danger you are willing to put yourself and your dogs in.


This is kind of the sticking point isn't it, I'm willing to put in the work, of course that what I thought I was doing, but I don't really want Sherlock to have to be put in this situation again. 



> I'd involve a really experienced trainer as well.
> 
> Good luck. Many people would decide to separate these dogs now. But with an intact male and spayed female, really they shouldn't be fighting at all (I've never seen it), and you have a better chance of success, I'd think, than say with two intact bitches.
> 
> Please update...


Tank is in Manners 2 training, he did really well with puppy training. I'm hoping to talk to our trainer after class and see if they have any recommendations.


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## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

They weren't being fed together, apparently a piece of watermelon got left outside I know I should've been more diligent about picking it up especially since its a high value treat for my corgi. They aren't fed together though, Tank is fed in his crate and Sherlock is fed in a different room and the bowls are picked up after feeding.



> Have there been tiffs or is Sherlock a bully? Herding breeds can be pretty bratty.


Yes they've had a couple scuffles, but they broke up relatively quickly and no one was worse for the wear. Sherlock is definitely the instigator, she is a very typically bitchy female corgi.



> My guess is that either Tank has Food aggression or Sherlock is tormenting him and a high value item/beginning maturity/patience running out instigated a fight where he had enough of her and let her know it. Because as others said this is a fairly unusual fight.


Tank hasn't shown any food aggression that I've seen, however I think you're right about the high value/beginning maturity/patience running out. Sherlock has a dominant personality, and I think Tank is starting to test that, and I don't think he wants to be bossed around by a dog half his size. I agree, I'm still surprised by the level that fight reached. 

I just keep going back and forth, I don't know if this is salvageable. Sherlock, bitchy as she can be, doesn't deserve to live in a house with a dog that is going to try and kill her. On the other hand, if this is a matter of training, crate and rotate for a few months while hormones level out/he gets fixed but eventually could be a peaceful household I'd like to try that.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Yeah- that's the thing. I get it. Watching a dog you love try to kill another dog you love is horrifying. 

I don't know how to help you make this decision, except to say, none of them are easy. If you can get a good trainer involved they can watch the dogs interact and hopefully give you some thoughts on possibilities for the future.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Spayed females, and neutered males, fall outside of the norm so there is no guarantee that a male/female combo will work and there is ample evidence to suggest that spaying makes bitches more aggressive not less. 
I owned a bitch that had serious issues with males and spaying made her worse. Yet she was fine with most females, which flies in the face of popular thinking. I also had an intact male completely set on killing my intact female. They are living creatures with their own ideas.
Unless you are prepared to crate and rotate for the rest of their lives I think you need to consider finding Tank a new spot. You can separate and train, but have a plan for if that does not work. I understand that you saw Tank start it That just means he is trying out his big boy pants and holding a grudge. So we know he is not a submissive being. Do what you can but be ready. Keep them apart for at least a few days to allow those stress hormones to subside, and invest in muzzles to keep everyone safe.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is tough to observe dogs and determine who started the fight. I had a female Whippet who bullied by looks and screamed bloody murder when one of the males growled at her. But I had her number...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Amelydia said:


> They weren't being fed together, apparently a piece of watermelon got left outside I know I should've been more diligent about picking it up especially since its a high value treat for my corgi. They aren't fed together though, Tank is fed in his crate and Sherlock is fed in a different room and the bowls are picked up after feeding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't call it testing out or not liking being bossed around. I would say he's standing up for himself since you've let the fights go on. Little scuffles are your warning signs that there are issues and you need to put a stop to it. I think it you get your corgi under control and let her know she can't misbehave thing could improve. 



I don't like comparing dogs to kids but, imagine if you have two kids. One is a bully and constantly shoving the other kid, calling him names, just being a jerk. One day the other kid just gets tired of it and whales on the other kid and just lets it all out. Then of course he gets in trouble because he went too far but nobody stopped him from getting bullied. 



Tank probably decided that he has to stand up for himself or he'll get picked on by the corgi. So you have to probably manage and teach your corgi not to be a brat. If you can't handle that then rehome Tank because it isn't fair to him, he doesn't deserve to live in a house where the little dog gets away with murder, I'd say in this situation don't blame him. But take steps to prevent it from happening again. I would still muzzle train as he can do more damage, but see how things go once you start managing your corgi. 



I am very aware of the little dog I'm around and make sure to keep her away from dogs that won't put up with her crap and would show her that she's out of line. This is because she isn't my dog and so I don't have the right to train her. But if she was my dog I'd have already put a stop to it. As is the owner is frustrated that she sits when I tell her too.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Kazel said:


> I wouldn't call it testing out or not liking being bossed around. I would say he's standing up for himself since you've let the fights go on. Little scuffles are your warning signs that there are issues and you need to put a stop to it. I think it you get your corgi under control and let her know she can't misbehave thing could improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed except with the blue section. If I had to dog-sit a dog, my rules would apply.


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## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Tank for the fight. Sherlock was 100% the instigator. Unfortunately I've been operating under some bad advice, I thought I needed to let dogs establish a pecking order and that sometimes they squabble over rank but as long as things don't turn bloody it's better to let them sort it out and if you intervene before it's over they'll just keep fighting until they can finish it. 

I have been working with Sherlock to reduce her reactivity, and she is far and away a calmer dog to she used to be, I don't know that I could get her to be completely non reactive though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It is not normal for a male to attack a female.
You have some hard decisions to make.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> It is tough to observe dogs and determine who started the fight. I had a female Whippet who bullied by looks and screamed bloody murder when one of the males growled at her. But I had her number...


THIS. Ruger is with my BF because of this. Little pit mix, neutered. Doesn't matter. He instigates. Valor will be on the floor minding his own business and Ruger...IF nobody is watching..will step over Valor's resting head and put his imaginary nuggets in Valor's face until Valor protests. When Valor protests Ruger screams as if he is being murdered. But then when someone (not me because I had Ruger's #) would call Valor off, Ruger would repeat the behavior first chance. People who did not know dog language were fooled. If Ruger was truly afraid of Valor he would not passive aggressively antagonize every chance he gets. And as Valor approaches 2 the danger that Valor is going to finally roll him has increased. So Ruger is with my BF ( a rehoming party backed out on him) and when my BF visits there is strict crate and rotate.

I hate to say it, but conquering these things once they have happened takes a lot of skill and vigilance forever going forwards. I would not neuter an 8 month old over it as there can be health drawbacks and in fact it rarely solves the problem and has even been known to make it worse. I would expect your GSD to stand up for himself more as he ages. Ruger became more of a bully as he aged despite being fixed at 4 months old (rescue)..and as Valor grew so did his willingness to say "no mas" 

I feel for you and hope a behaviorist or trainer can help.


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## Judy Untamed (Oct 26, 2018)

CometDog said:


> ... put his imaginary nuggets in Valor's face ...


:rofl: Sorry! I know this isn't a funny topic, but I just had to give kudos and thanks for a much needed laugh this morning. :grin2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Never had a male attack a female. I'm not sure how to advise, if the attack was serious and the other dog was actually injured, next time it will be worse. I've seen small spats but never an attack. Or fight. I'm sure it can happen, as others have said, but it's not "normal". 

Seperate them and observe, use muzzles, seek advice of an experienced trainer. Up pack leadership in broad terms. Dogs are making bad decisions so they don't get to make may decisions for a long time. Kick the snot out of them for even considering fighting. At this point, it's not a matter of being nice and hoping they'll get along. Allowing them to fight it out is such bad advice I don't know why it is still around. Dogs could die if people follow this advice. Anyone familiar with wolf packs will concur - and a dog in the household can't go off and find his own territory.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I've had males that have rolled a bossy out of line female and it was always a spayed rescue of another breed than the male. The females were an English Mastiff and a Jack Russel..males involved respectively a GSD (intact) and a Boxer mix (neutered rescue). It was always a quick dust up though (lots of noise and motion but no teeth marks)not an actual fight.


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## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

I think I knew the answer before I posted but I guess I was hoping for better news. If I'm honest with myself I don't have the ability or time to make this a happy safe household for both dogs. I want to, I wish I was confident enough to be able to say I can and will fix this, and maybe if it was just me or even just my husband and me we could, but with two young kids I can't guarantee there won't be another incident. I know I can do more with Sherlock to curb her attitude, but it takes one bad day, one slip up and I don't know I can stop a fight by myself. 

I talked with my parents and they are considering taking Tank. They've had a GSD in the past, and they have a 1 year old larger mutt that Tank has gotten along with when they've brought her over for playdates. I'm really hoping they'll take him so he can stay in the family and I can still visit him, he really is such a great dog. He's a quick learner and so good with my kids, and honestly fine with other dogs as long as they aren't reactive. 

I hate this. Its a crappy situation and I wish I had known what I know now. Maybe I could've done more to prevent this from happening.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Amelydia said:


> I think I knew the answer before I posted but I guess I was hoping for better news. If I'm honest with myself I don't have the ability or time to make this a happy safe household for both dogs. I want to, I wish I was confident enough to be able to say I can and will fix this, and maybe if it was just me or even just my husband and me we could, but with two young kids I can't guarantee there won't be another incident. I know I can do more with Sherlock to curb her attitude, but it takes one bad day, one slip up and I don't know I can stop a fight by myself.
> 
> I talked with my parents and they are considering taking Tank. They've had a GSD in the past, and they have a 1 year old larger mutt that Tank has gotten along with when they've brought her over for playdates. I'm really hoping they'll take him so he can stay in the family and I can still visit him, he really is such a great dog. He's a quick learner and so good with my kids, and honestly fine with other dogs as long as they aren't reactive.
> 
> I hate this. Its a crappy situation and I wish I had known what I know now. Maybe I could've done more to prevent this from happening.


Hind sight is always 20/20. You had an incident with your dogs. You didn't ignore it. You actively sought out help and advice. You have read and evaluated that advice. You have evaluated the realities of the future with these two dogs and yours and your families capabilities to handle them in the future. You are being proactive in a realistic solution. We are all human and make mistakes. And sometimes some dogs just don't get along no matter what we humans do.
You are putting the safety and wellness of both dogs first and foremost. I commend you for taking the honest look at the future of these two dogs in the same house and making the tough decisions on their behalf. Even though it sucks your priorities are in the right place. 
I hope placement of Tank with family works out and you can still have him in your life.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Never had a male attack a female. I'm not sure how to advise, if the attack was serious and the other dog was actually injured, next time it will be worse. I've seen small spats but never an attack. Or fight. I'm sure it can happen, as others have said, but it's not "normal".



I don't consider Tank's incident an 'attack' but more like a 'once and for all' response to her bullying ways. In the past one of my dog was attacked by an Akita. She came up in hunting mode without meeting my dog and bit him in a full blow attack. There was no prior interaction unlike in Tank's case.
To the OP: you have made the best decision for your family's sake and the dogs'. I recently had to give up a 100% sound young male due to my health issues. Missing him hurts like crazy and on my good days I wonder if I should have kept him. But my health is improving because of giving him up. He found a great new home as service dog. Once Tank lives with someone else and doing well, your and the dogs' peace will return.


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## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

I am so sorry you are going through this. Honestly, I think you are doing the right thing. I had a rat terrier mix, as well as my young GSD. They had gotten along fine, no problem for 16 months, although the little dog was always the boss. Suddenly they got in a fight (even though I was there when it happened, I don't know what "caused it.") The GSD picked the small dog up by the neck and shook her, and we had to have her put to sleep that same afternoon. For that reason, I will never have a large dog and a small dog at the same time again. I realize many people do and never have a problem, but I have seen firsthand what can happen if and when they do fight.


P.S. Both were spayed females.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I think you are making the right decision. Let the corgi be queen of the house in her old age. The other option is to separate and/or work really hard at this particular issue making sure to stay safe. The corgi probably has anywhere from 2- 5 more years in her.. maybe more I don't know the breed very well. But it is an option.


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## Amelydia (Dec 5, 2018)

I know its the right choice and even better it looks like my parents will be able to hold on to Tank for me, and as long as they aren't completely in love with him when there is no longer a Sherlock I may even be able to get him back, but at the very least I'll still get to visit him and I know he's going to be spoiled rotten with them. 

For all her faults, Sherlock really is a great dog, she just isn't great with other dogs. I had high hopes when I brought Tank home that maybe Sherlock and Tank could learn to get along, after all the only dog she ever submitted to was my parents old GSD. Things were going well until they didn't and we're fortunate enough that the fight wasn't worse. 

This isn't how would've planned everything, but with whats happened things are progressing about as well as I could hope. 

My only other hurdle now is getting Tank fixed, my mom is willing to take him in but she very much wants him to be neutered before they take him in. Ideally I'd like to wait until he's a bit older, at least a year to 18 months, but ideally he wouldn't have to be taken in by my parents...


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> No suggestions on how to fix the conflict, but if they fight again, grab your GSD by the hind legs and lift them off the ground and pull him away to break up the fight.


THANK YOU!!! I was at the local community building for the rabies shots and this person had a real large junkyard dog (with no muzzle) on a chain & wire leash (?). My GSD and I was in front of a person who was holding their small dog but for some insane reason decided to get close to junkyard dog(why?) who was able to grabbed poor little dog around the neck and wouldn’t let go. Both owners was hitting the poor junkyard on the head and trying to (pull?) poor little dog out of its mouth with no success DUH! I gave my dog over to a bystander and picked up the junkyard dog's rear leg putting him off balanced and twisted my hands opposite of each other giving the poor JYD a good burn (it works great), junkyard let go quickly and tried to bite me with no success(Istill had it's leg). Poor little dog owner left and I hoped went to vet. Junkyard’s owner was upset but people just get too close to other and just think all dogs will get along.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Amelydia said:


> Unfortunately I've been operating under some bad advice, I thought I needed to let dogs establish a pecking order and that sometimes they squabble over rank but as long as things don't turn bloody it's better to let them sort it out and if you intervene before it's over they'll just keep fighting until they can finish it.


Yikes. Yeah, not good advice. I've only had GSDs (male/female pairs) and have been very, very lucky that they have always gotten along extremely well. I don't think that's any magic on my part, it has a lot to do with the temperament of the dogs, which fortunately have been complimentary to each other. But I do enforce house rules, and if there had been any sort of squabbles they would have been nipped in the bud immediately.


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