# aggression + 7 months old



## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

Our fun, silly pup has started showing his teeth with his gums at us. He doesn't go on the couch or bed. We walk down stairs before him. We practice NILIF. I don't understand it. Why this sudden anger? He is usually so much fun. He is enrolled in classes, gets plenty of exercise and is loved but this week he has done this to my husband and then to my daughter. Please help. Is this normal?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Some dogs will submissively grin when they're nervous or trying to appease you. It can look pretty intimidating if you don't know what you're looking at. Is there any growling, snapping, "hard" eye-contact, or is he literally just showing you his teeth?


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

well hello, my 7 mo puppy is loving adorable etc. she is still a landshark so i asked my trainer what to do, well i now firmly hold her collar and i get in her face and tell her very sternly no bite! well she shows me all those pearly whites, kinda looks like a vicious attack dog, no growling though, good luck


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

He's showing his teeth and gums like an agressive dog getting ready to attack.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I believe you but is he showing any other signs of aggression? Teeth can be a scary thing but there is more to dog communication than teeth alone...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

First - no this is not normal. 

Can you explain the exact scenarios where he's done this?

Where did you get him from and at what age?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Without the hard state or growling, it could very definitely be a submissive gesture. It's even called a "submissive grin". What is the context of these occurances?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Is there growling, stiffness, lowered head, eye contact, or anything else that accompanies the teeth baring?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Chances of this being aggression at 7 months isn't high. I'm with the others that it's probably something else. 

Are you working on alot of http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ime-owner/162230-engagement-key-training.html <--- click that

It's a huge help with all training and being able to read your pup better.

What is your breeder recommending or suggesting?

Do you clicker train? Good way to get on a bit better footing also and removes any growling/teeth. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-intro-clicker-training-perfect-puppies.html <--click that


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

I think he is getting ready to attack. He showed his teeth and bit my husband at bath time last week. We got him at 8 weeks from a reputable german shepherd breeder from proven, stable dogs. There is eye contact. He doesn't want to do what we are asking like "go outside". I have spent lots of time with him training the Michael Ellis type system. He's great otherwise but this is intolerable. Many thanks


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> I think he is getting ready to attack. He showed his teeth and bit my husband at bath time last week.


You need to get PROFESSIONAL help with this situation before it gets out of control.

Find a trainer that has experience with working breeds and have them come to your house to see exactly what the dog is doing.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Just to clarify:

Aggression: Aggressive display of the teeth is easy to recognize. The FRONT of the mouth is pulled back, and the FRONT section of the upper and lower teeth are displayed. Aggressive displays are focused at the front of the muzzle.
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/103/274618471_fb60b04515_z.jpg?zz=1

Submissive Grin: The submissive grin is easily identifiable. The entire mouth is revealed with this 'smile', the lips all around the mouth are pulled up and all the teeth all around the muzzle are shown. 
http://www.firstpeople.us/pictures/wolves/monty/Tristans_submissive_grin_C24S3231.jpg


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

Wild Wolf It is the first website. I couldn't click the other one. When we want him to do something he flops on his side and won't get up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Keep him leashed and gently pull him to his feet, reward for being up. 
I'm unfamiliar with Michael Ellis. What does that involve?
I'm curious why your dog has become so defensive at 7mos. Are physical discipline methods employed?


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

He's not dog agressive or people agressive. He's the best dog we have ever had. Very loving but this has turned into a problem.


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

Michael Ellis teaches engagement and his reward is the word "yes" instead of a clicker. These is NO physical punishment. I will seperate him from the family as a disipline but that is very rare.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

It does kind of sound like your dog might be showing his teeth aggressively but just in case here is a video of a dog smiling submissively

I could not get a link to work but when I copy this into the browser it works

http://www.maniacworld.com/scary-smiling-dog.html


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Is he afraid of something suddenly? He's at the right age...he bit your husband at bath time? How often has he had one? Maybe he's suddenly afraid of the tub/water/whatever. He could be in a bit of a fear period.


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

That is a darling, smiling dog, but no. Our dog was far more angry. As far as fear period, I haven't read about anyone else having this problem at this time.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I have seen two types of dogs who just flop on there sides.

Those dogs who do this because they have learned that it works. Example I have meet many people who don't walk their dogs because the dog just sits or flops and the person does not force the issue they just give up so they have taught the dog to put on the breaks when it does not want to do something. Usually these dogs are so used to getting their own way when you do decide to do some training with them they often throw some pretty tantrums because they have always been rewarded for this in the past (what the tantrum looks like is totally dependent on the individual dog).


Also have seen dogs who shut down because of a correction and they literally think their world is ending so they try to lay as flat on the floor as possible in hopes the stress will stop. This does not mean that the handler was unfair it could just be an extremely soft dog who has never had to deal with a little stress before. I have seen a dog get a pop upwards on a flat collar for breaking a sit the dog had been taught sit from a young puppy and was now 7 or 8 months old. The dogs reaction to the pop was basically to just want to flop to the floor and be a speed bump.

It does sound like your dog would fall into the first category there is really no advise that can be given on how to deal with this over the internet. Try to find a trainer who is knowledgable on behaviour who will come to your house and assess your dog.


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

We have never popped our dog although sometimes we will put a puppy prong collar on him when we feel threatened. He does lay down and wraps his leg around the leash so that is an additional problem in getting him up. Also he is mouthy and no matter how I have worked with him with closed fist down the throat, he continues to put his teeth on us to get us away. Usually he is a loving, fun dog. A fantastic dog really.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

This is from my trainer's website, Diamondsintheruff.com, you can visit the FAQ section and find a wealth of info. Here is a description of the Second Fear stage:

"
*Second Fear Period*
Many dogs will show a rise in their level of aggression (reactivity) during this time. They may become protective and territorial. Incidents of teenage flakiness may recur.​ 6 to 14 months
In large breeds this period could extend longer since it is tied to sexual maturity. Incidents may occur more than once.​








Corresponds with growth spurts. Therefore it may happen more than once as the puppy matures.
May suddenly be apprehensive about new things or shy or timid of new people or situations. Most of height growing is over, but pup will start to fill out over the coming year.
Puppy begins to mature sexually: male begins to lift leg, and female has first heat period anywhere from 6-12 months. Puppy coat being replaced by adult coat, starting down the spine.

This is a fear of new situations and are handled with the utmost patience. The dog is encouraged to work it out on his own. If anything, it is better to ignore the whole situation than to reinforce the fear by praising the dog or petting him while he is afraid. When you "reassure" a dog with pets and "it's okay, fella", you are telling him it is okay to be frightened and you are creating a potential problem. 
If your puppy appears apprehensive, avoid confrontation.
Build confidence through training.
Avoid any potentially overwhelming circumstances you cannot personally oversee, such as shipping your pup in the cargo bay of an airplane.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

If he's afraid and reacts, then gets a correction with the prong, it could be reinforcing the fear. He's afraid, and then gets "hurt" so it creates even more fear. Correcting fear-based reactivity with a prong can often worsen it, so I believe. 

Not that I'm any type of expert, by the way.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Clyde said:


> I have seen two types of dogs who just flop on there sides.
> 
> *Those dogs who do this because they have learned that it works. Example I have meet many people who don't walk their dogs because the dog just sits or flops and the person does not force the issue they just give up so they have taught the dog to put on the breaks when it does not want to do something. Usually these dogs are so used to getting their own way when you do decide to do some training with them they often throw some pretty tantrums because they have always been rewarded for this in the past (what the tantrum looks like is totally dependent on the individual dog).*
> 
> ...


What you say makes sense.
He's reached some sort of threshold or another and since the flopping down works, he uses it. 
Now, when it doesn't work, he escalates.

To the OP - try these techniques (click link below). Leash that dog at all times for the time being. ALL TIMES (beginning now, find him and snap a leash on him). 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

You need to take back decision making from him, and leashing him to you will start. He'll also do a long-down - maybe 5 min. to start but work up to 10-15min. within a few days.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> We have never popped our dog although sometimes we will put a puppy prong collar on him when we feel threatened. He does lay down and wraps his leg around the leash so that is an additional problem in getting him up. Also he is mouthy and no matter how I have worked with him with closed fist down the throat, he continues to put his teeth on us to get us away. Usually he is a loving, fun dog. A fantastic dog really.


There is no such thing as a "puppy prong", unless you mean smaller than an adult prong.
Get the prong off - use a martingale or flat collar although I'd lean towards flat since you're going to be dragging him around the house for a few weeks.


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

Thank you everyone. I had him evaluated this morning and it seems that he is a super dominent dog. I will be taking him to doggie boot camp next week.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Who evaluated him? What do they mean by "dominant"? What's "boot camp" and what do they do there??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

oooh, boy. I sure hope where you are taking him is reputable and know what they are doing, and that you are involved in every step. 


> Also he is mouthy and no matter how I have worked with him with closed fist down the throat, he continues to put his teeth on us to get us away.


 I don't understand this, could you elaborate on what/why you are doing this?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP - I hope you can come back and explain about the fist in the throat thing.
Your dog does not sound dominant at all.

He sounds fearful and he's shutting down (laying down) because he's afraid and has no other behaviors to offer, that's not dominance, it's lack of positive training and too much physical.

Something has gone grievously wrong along the way, and unless "boot camp" involves hands-off training and not a bunch of alpha rolling you may as well skip it, save your money and take him directly to the vet to be put to sleep.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with msvette2u.... very seldom is a 7 month old so dominant that it acts aggressive, usually it is a fear based response and only confidence building will help, not shutting the dog down or dominating it to submission.


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2011)

One trainer we had said that when (with short nails) your dogs bites you (mind you he is no longer in the landshark days) you should put your fingers down his throat slightly. This makes a gag reflex and they should stop the mouthing when then don't want to do something. It didn't work for us.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Obviously that is not great advice....
So do you play tug with your pup, work on engagement?
Where are you located(general, not specific?) There may be other training options than boot camp.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Wild Wolf It is the first website. I couldn't click the other one. When we want him to do something he flops on his side and won't get up.


Have you contacted his breeder? If he came from a reputable breeder then they should be able to best advise you on what you're seeing. It's possible he's too much dog for you and, if so, you need to speak with them about that. There is a very experienced dog handler on this board who bought a dog from a reputable breeder and ended up exchanging that dog for another b/c the first dog wasn't a good match. So I would start by contacting the breeder. 

It is extremely rare to see dominant aggression in an adult gsd and I honestly wouldn't trust any trainer who diagnoses it in a puppy and then recommends (their own?) boot camp. There are people on this board and on other boards who have sent their pups to boot camp and it has, literally, ruined their dog. 

I had a dog who would flop over when he saw the leash or when he was given certain commands. It was submissive behavior. He had been put under a tremendous amount of physical pressure (read force) to behave a certain way and so he basically shut down.

It really sounds like a breakdown in communication between you and your dog. It sounds like he is interpreting your actions as threatening and he is responding in a defensive mode and you are interpreting his defense as threatening. 

ETA: The hand down throat technique doesn't work and certainly could be threatening to a dog. 

How exactly are you training him?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm with BowWowMeow...

DID YOU CONTACT YOUR PUP'S BREEDER?

WHAT DID THEY SUGGEST?

The issues you describe seem to be ones that we newbies to the breed run into and NOT necessarily dominant/alpha/aggressive.

It can be a HUGE issue to over-react and dominate such a young puppy at 7 months old. So you need to be very careful.

If your dog was 3 years old and this was suddenly occuring it would be different, but for a young puppy it would be extremely strange. And the FIRST person I talk to when 'strange' crops up is my breeder.

CALL YOUR BREEDER! :help:


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## adas (Nov 22, 2008)

For what it is worth, i have noticed Nimai (now 13 month male gs) who has gone through a LOT and you would think I had 4 different dogs with the personality changes. From totally scared, to acting like a punk to attacking, to wanting to bite a person even 1 minute after the person gave him a treat, to now very docile and velcro. 

Point is that I think many changes occur in personality as they are growing from babyhood to youth to maturity. I also found you need to grasp that "communication moment", the one when you want to brag to yourself that he is "almost human" to show/train/explain/cohearse to him what you want to do. 

A good professional that you thoroughly interview and with some advice here should help you find a way to show your dog that this behavior is simply not tolerated in your family. 

Aside to MaggieRoseLee. I had your video on (the canoe one) and before I heard any dog sounds in it, Nimai rose and became fixated to the computer screen. There must have been some sounds out of human listening range that caught his attention. So funny.

Francis


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Out of curiosity, I'd love to see your puppy's pedigree. That may or may not play into his behaviors.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> We have never popped our dog although sometimes we will put a puppy prong collar on him when we feel threatened. He does lay down and wraps his leg around the leash so that is an additional problem in getting him up. Also he is mouthy and no matter how I have worked with him with closed fist down the throat, he continues to put his teeth on us to get us away. Usually he is a loving, fun dog. A fantastic dog really.


What do you mean you put a prong collar on him when you feel threatened? What is he doing and in what way do you then use the collar in response?
In what circumstances is he mouthy? Describe a situation from start to finish.

Most dogs are not dominant. Most of the behaviors that our dogs present are learned behaviours. In very rare instances I am sure some dogs do challenge their owners but this is very rare.

When you say your dog lays down and wraps his front legs around the leash when you try to get him up I would not call this dominant but I would call this protesting. This protesting is a learned behaviour and every time the dog protests and the owner gives up the dog has learned something. This can be dangerous because this often escalates. The situation occurs over and over again each time the dog protests and perhaps gets a little more extreme in his/her protest. The owner gives up and the dog has learned that escalating works. 

One thing I think all dogs should learn is leash pressure. Basically this means that when constant pressure is put on the leash (this can be attatched to a flat collar or a corrective collar I really can't say without seeing the dog) the dog learns that the pressure stops when they "give in to the pressure". They take a step in the direction the pressure is coming from of their own will not just because you are pulling them. Micheal Ellis describes this in one of his videos I cannot remember which one. I would not recommend trying this without someone who knows what they are doing supervising you. I really haven't described the technique fully anyway. The thing I like about this technique is that it teaches dogs to give in to the pressure and not to protest. A dog who has learned to protest leash pressure will likely show some extreme reactions to this which is why you must have someone who knows what they are doing supervising.

When looking for a trainer or behaviourist you should expect to receive an outline of what the goals are for your dog and the techniques the trainer is going to use to accomplish these goals. Even if the trainer you have chosen does not normally do this there is no reason why you cannot ask them for a breakdown of what their plan is. If what they outline does not make sense then find a different trainer.

Also you could post it on this board and we can all take a look at it


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> One trainer we had said that when (with short nails) your dogs bites you (mind you he is no longer in the landshark days) you should put your fingers down his throat slightly. This makes a gag reflex and they should stop the mouthing when then don't want to do something. It didn't work for us.


I just wish I knew what kind of trainers you've been using - because this "technique" is abusive at best, and it's no wonder the dog has developed fear.
Please let us know what we can do to help you. People here are very willing to assist in finding a good trainer to help you understand what's happening with your puppy and try to salvage your relationship.
We cannot do that without your input and a location (general, not your home address!)
If you were closer I'd swing by to try to assist.

If you were or are able to implement some of the "Mind Games", that would be much better than sending the puppy off to 'boot camp'.


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## GSDSadie (Nov 22, 2012)

Hey OP. I'm new here too 

Do you have any pics of your pup? 

You know what, at first I thought my girl was dog aggressive, she would go crazy when she sees another dog, she barks and lunges and gets her hackles up but in actual fact she is scared. Just because your pup is looking scary to you does not mean it's meaning to be aggressive, it's just the way dogs are. 

When they show their teeth whether its submission smiling or being aggressive, to us humans it looks ****ing scary when it's a big dog!

I hope you come back here as everyone is willing to help you 

ETS whoops sorry for the swear word lol and just realised this thread is ooooooooooooold hahah


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

If you are somewhat fearful, he may read it differently.

Try to be confident and consistent with him.


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