# PP vs Schutzhund / IPO



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have learned (so far) that in PP the dog is focused on 'the guy' vs in Schutzhund/IPO the dog is focused on equipment. True? Deja has never been exposed to either sport but I know she'll love these sports. I am planning to take her and the new pup for an introduction in the near future.
Next questions: 
- is a PP-dog more likely to protect you in real life than a Schutzhund-trained dog since most 'bad guys' don't wear sleeves? I took a mutt in the 70's to Schutzhund in the NLs so that is a long time ago. We had to drop out when he hid from the decoy's baton as he was hit with items at his previous home as a pup, which I observed.
- which sport is the most physically challenging for the handler as I am not getting any younger these days?
- does PP have titles?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Following. I have similar questions.

I have a private trainer for my dog, I would like to put designations/achievements on him but do not have time to dedicate to train at competition levels. Well, let me rephrase. I have flexibility to dedicate 2 hours a day to training between breakfast and bed, but it is various times depending on what my work day looks like. And every other weekend I can work them, in a similar way...grab blocks of time when I can get it, but those blocks vary greatly. In other words, I don't have the flexibility to attend a club's schedules, and trials that are scheduled etc.

I do want to put a BH on him, and my trainer thinks his good off switch paired with a few other traits, PPD could be on the table. The sports oriented people I hang out with like the ...I don't know what else to call it...the constant staring fuss. My trainer does not require that. He does not mind the dog looking around or where he is going, and rather uses a different command for the dog to stare at him and await instruction. 

I'm green on that so I'd love to hear other's takes as to how the methods differ.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Its easy to make broad generalizations to each side, but basically, I have found that the dogs and the training are what you make of them. Genetically, the dog will be what it will be. There are ways to encourage more prey based work vs aggression/defense based work, but it doesn't change who the dog is at the core. People will make their own judgements about what it looks like to them regardless. I have a dog, who people would call "sporty", take her first suit bite to the chest two weekends ago after 5 years of strictly IPO training. It all just depends on what you have and how you work it.

A PP dog will typically have more scenario based training than an IPO trained dog. IPO trials are always the same routine outside, so it is most commonly trained with that in mind. That said, it does not mean that the IPO dogs have not had similar training to the PP dogs, or vice versa. The end product can sometimes look very obviously different, depending on each particular style of training. Dependability of the dog will depend mostly on the strength of that dog itself, IMO.

Both sports are physically challenging. IPO requires 3 phases of training, so it may be more consuming overall. 

I can't speak to PP titles specifically other than knowing that both SDA and PSA offer protection titles, along with obedience.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GatorDog said:


> Its easy to make broad generalizations to each side, but basically, I have found that the dogs and the training are what you make of them. Genetically, the dog will be what it will be. There are ways to encourage more prey based work vs aggression/defense based work, but it doesn't change who the dog is at the core. People will make their own judgements about what it looks like to them regardless. I have a dog, who people would call "sporty", take her first suit bite to the chest two weekends ago after 5 years of strictly IPO training. It all just depends on what you have and how you work it.
> 
> A PP dog will typically have more scenario based training than an IPO trained dog. IPO trials are always the same routine outside, so it is most commonly trained with that in mind. That said, it does not mean that the IPO dogs have not had similar training to the PP dogs, or vice versa. The end product can sometimes look very obviously different, depending on each particular style of training. Dependability of the dog will depend mostly on the strength of that dog itself, IMO.
> 
> ...


Very good post! ...and I have titled in both!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Very good post! ...and I have titled in both!


 with the same dog?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> with the same dog?


My last IPO titled dog became a police patrol dog.........depends on if you think police patrol dog is capable PP.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't know squat about titles. I do know none of the PPD's I have had or seen would leave their person to chase someone. Not ever. It violates the training. I am the only purpose. They also needed to be extremely discerning as a PPD is useless if it cannot be with you. Highly intelligent, obedient and at ease with sudden change. If you can throw a PPD off it's game or you need to shut it down in odd situations it should not be a PPD.
Again I know nothing about titles, so if you are speaking about competition things may be different. I am simply addressing that in all the IPO trials I have seen they send the dog after a decoy, a PPD should not go or they could be drawn off.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't know squat about titles. I do know none of the PPD's I have had or seen would leave their person to chase someone. Not ever. It violates the training. I am the only purpose. They also needed to be extremely discerning as a PPD is useless if it cannot be with you. Highly intelligent, obedient and at ease with sudden change. If you can throw a PPD off it's game or you need to shut it down in odd situations it should not be a PPD.
> Again I know nothing about titles, so if you are speaking about competition things may be different. I am simply addressing that in all the IPO trials I have seen they send the dog after a decoy, a PPD should not go or they could be drawn off.


Interestingly the higher level PSA titles actually have a scenario where the dog is sent after a passive target through a tunnel, then called back to the handler to engage a second assailant. Prior to learning this, I had always thought that PPDs were not to leave the handler for any reason.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Interestingly the higher level PSA titles actually have a scenario where the dog is sent after a passive target through a tunnel, then called back to the handler to engage a second assailant. Prior to learning this, I had always thought that PPDs were not to leave the handler for any reason.


I think you are talking about the courage test in PSA. It's a proofing tool. 
There are no set rules for a ppd. It's all dependent on what the owner needs.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> I think you are talking about the courage test in PSA. It's a proofing tool.
> There are no set rules for a ppd. It's all dependent on what the owner needs.


I could have misread...here's the doc..

Surprise Scenario Training Strateges | PSA K9


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Its easy to make broad generalizations to each side, but basically, I have found that the dogs and the training are what you make of them. Genetically, the dog will be what it will be. There are ways to encourage more prey based work vs aggression/defense based work, but it doesn't change who the dog is at the core. People will make their own judgements about what it looks like to them regardless. I have a dog, who people would call "sporty", take her first suit bite to the chest two weekends ago after 5 years of strictly IPO training. It all just depends on what you have and how you work it.
> 
> A PP dog will typically have more scenario based training than an IPO trained dog. IPO trials are always the same routine outside, so it is most commonly trained with that in mind. That said, it does not mean that the IPO dogs have not had similar training to the PP dogs, or vice versa. The end product can sometimes look very obviously different, depending on each particular style of training. Dependability of the dog will depend mostly on the strength of that dog itself, IMO.
> 
> ...




^^^This is an excellent post. 


To me, the big difference is PP isn’t a sport. It’s real life. As much as I love SDA and PSA, and other sports, they are still points based. There target audience may be different, and the intentions of the sports may be different, but again still sports. 

As for PPD’s never leaving their handlers, I don’t know about that. I can understand why some wouldn’t want to, but I can equally understand why being able to send them in an appropriate scenario would be usefull.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I could have misread...here's the doc..
> 
> Surprise Scenario Training Strateges | PSA K9


It's still about testing the dogs courage.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Interestingly the higher level PSA titles actually have a scenario where the dog is sent after a passive target through a tunnel, then called back to the handler to engage a second assailant. Prior to learning this, I had always thought that PPDs were not to leave the handler for any reason.





mycobraracr said:


> ^^^This is an excellent post.
> 
> 
> To me, the big difference is PP isn’t a sport. It’s real life. As much as I love SDA and PSA, and other sports, they are still points based. There target audience may be different, and the intentions of the sports may be different, but again still sports.
> ...


Thank you both for the correction and clarification. As I said I have only ever worked with PPD's, never competed with them.
For our purposes, the dogs job was to protect never apprehend so there was no circumstance where it was appropriate for the dog to leave the handler.
I will be checking into this PSA/SDA stuff more as that may be of interest in the future. It seems closer to what I am used to and a bit less "structured" which is not the word I want so need more coffee.


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