# Jake is having surgery



## TMarie

I just got off the phone with my vet, and Jake's surgery has been moved up to tomorrow morning. 
He has a lump on the side of his face, actually on the lip, where the top and bottom lip connect. It has started to grow really fast in the last 2 weeks.

We are both scared to death about the outcome. He is 9 and half years old.

Please send positive thoughts Jakes' way.


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## Jazzstorm

<span style="color: #3333FF"> Prayers and good vibes for Jake and you!</span>


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## song032005

he is in good health for them to do the surgery, thats a good thing. stay positive... i will most difinitely keep your jake in my thoughts and prayers for a good surgery, a quick recovery and a negative result! 

hugs to you tammy and your sweet jake and doggie kisses from forrest.


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## Shandril2

Well wishes for good news!


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## Ursa Lunar

Am keeping sweet Jake in my thoughts!


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## sammys_mom

Good luck and best wishes to you and Jake. Baron sends good wishes and sloppy kisses. Hope everything comes out good.

Jackie


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## momto3k9s

All fingers and paws crossed everything turns out well! Keep us updated!


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## LuvourGSDs

Sending prayers to your fur baby *Jake*









Wish him luck & so hope the outcome is good.


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## WiscTiger

TMarie, Sending good Vibes for Jake and you.


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## TMarie

Thanks you guys.

Jake is at the vets now. Poor boy acted like he was starving this morning. He didn't understand why he couldn't eat breakfast, or have any water. 
He has acid reflux, and normally if he doesn't eat at a certain time he will vomit. He made it through the morning without vomiting though.

I will update when he comes out of surgery. 
Please keep the good vibes coming.


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## TMarie

My husband is the one that dropped Jake off this morning. He just called me a little bit ago from work. Poor Jake also has an abscessed tooth that needs pulled also.
Then the vet reminded my husband that he isn't sure, at this point, but there will be a possibility of them hitting a nerve during surgery, because of where the lump is.

Like I wasn't a nervous wreck already? I really don't think I needed to hear that.


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## Lynnemd

Will be waiting with you. All the best of luck - sounds like Jake's a neat pup.


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## arycrest

How nerve wracking - warm thoughts and prayers for you and Jake!!!


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## BowWowMeow

Sheesh, Tammy. What a week you have had!!!!!! I hope everything goes ok with Jake's surgery!


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## CherryCola

Sending best wishes and positive thoughts!!


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## TMarie

I hate waiting. Darn, I wish the doc would call.
My house don't look right with just Aussies, well I have Jarie, but she acts more like an Aussie.


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## TMarie

He is home!! The vet said it was a clean cut. We won't have results until Wednesday. He had the abscessed tooth removed also. I feel so bad about the tooth. I didn't even know. The vet said he had to have been in a lot of pain, because the abscess was BAD!! My poor boy was hurting, and I didn't even know. So, came home with a boy, in less pain, a bag full of meds, and $800.00 less in the bank.
But, my boy is back.
Just have to wait now for the results of the lump.

Here are a couple of pics. He is sooo sad!!!


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## TMarie

Oh, I forgot, the vet kept telling me not to be alarmed, but by tomorrow his face is going to be very swollen.


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## WiscTiger

Tammy, When my male had his nueter surgery the Vet told me to put ice packs on three or four times a day, for about 20 mins. You can use a bag of frozen peas or smaller ice cubes. Applying Ice Packs helps keep the swelling down and the dog more comfortable.

Val


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## TMarie

Thanks Val,
The vet didn't mention that, so I will. I hadn't thought about it. But he has only been home for less than an hour.


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## Skye'sMom

Tammy, I am so glad Jake is home again with you. Surgery days are forever, aren't they.

Don't feel about missing this - our animals can be very stingy about showing pain. My siamese went through exactly the same thing a couple of years ago. Within a few days he was feeling much better, although I still felt very bad.

Get better soon, Jake.


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## TMarie

Thanks Bonnie,

Yeah, we were focusing so much on the lump, we never gave it any thought about the tooth. He had a bump under his right eye, which was the abscess just going right up through his gums. 

I am so glad he is home.


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## WiscTiger

Tammy I don't know why most Vets don't suggest it. I suppose they feel that most people wouldn't do it.

Sorry, I was in such a hurry to post about the ice pack I forgot to say glad Jake is home. The worst thing to have is a stoic animal, they won't show you they are in pain.

Val


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## TMarie

Val, 
I agree. Jake is a big gentle boy, and we have always been able to do anything with him, I guess that is what made him such a great Therapy Dog. So the ice packs will be a breeze for me, and I know he won't mind at all.
Thanks again.


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## LisaT

Sure am keeping my fingers crossed for a positive biopsy report. Be sure to get a copy of it and let us know what it says!

I bet he is going to be a much happier boy now without the abcess!


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## TMarie

> Originally Posted By: LisaTSure am keeping my fingers crossed for a positive biopsy report. Be sure to get a copy of it and let us know what it says!


Thanks Lisa. I will get a copy and definitely let you know.


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## arycrest

Poor Jake, glad he's thru the surgery and hopefully he'll have a quick recovery.

For what it's worth, the same thing happened to me - I didn't notice Kelly had an abscesed tooth until it turned black - I felt terrible. He had problems when it was extracted Monday, but he's doing great now. He just went back onto his regular diet this evening after having the soft diet since his surgery!!!

That's a great idea about using an ice pack.








Hugs to Jake!!!


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## ThreeDogs

Your poor boy!! I will keep you all in my thoughts, I hope he makes a quick complete recovery.


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## LuvourGSDs

Glad that Jake's home & sure hope to hear good news from the vet. Will be keeping him & you in our prayers.

He looks so sad.







PRETTY boy !


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## 2dogcrew

Awwwww, I just want to give him a wee kiss on his boo-boo. Poor Jake, he was trying to disguise his pain and I know he had to be hurting.







I'm glad he's home too. Now you can spoil him even more.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

How's the sweet guy doing today?


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## TMarie

Thanks you guys.

He is doing ok this morning. He ate his dinner fine last night, and breakfast this morning. He has always been a chow hound, so I don't think this is going to change his appetite any.

He hasn't had any swelling so far. He looks so pitiful, but is still giving kisses.

The funny thing about the tooth is he still ate fine, and chewed on bones, never acted any differently. He is very trusting though. This was only the 3rd time he has seen this vet, and the vet just is amazed on how tolerant Jake is.

A good example is a couple years ago, the vet put a scope down his ear, all the way to the eardrum to take some pictures, because he had a ruptured ear drum. he said most dogs need to be sedated for that, but he knew Jakes temperament, and he was right, Jake just sat there while he move this scope all down his ear, while we watched on the monitor, and was able to see the inside of his ear. It was interesting.

Jake is such a good boy.


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## eberesche

Awww, poor sweet guy, he really does look pitiful. Hope he's feeling better soon.


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## momto3k9s

Awwww, look at that face! I hope he is doing OK. Give him lots of tummy rubs and ear scratches for me!!!


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Well, not good news. The doctor just called. I couldn't even understand what the name of it was. I will pick up the report tonight.

It is a Malignant Tumor, that is a kind that can metastasize and does quite frequently. It also is the type that reoccurs frequently.

He is going to have his oncologist look at it, and get his opinion, but he is out of town for 2 weeks. He has another oncologist, but he feels that this can wait for 2 weeks, and not an emergency at this time. Then we will decide what to do from there.

I will post the report, when I get it.

I am just devestated.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

I am so sorry. You and Jake will be in my thoughts and prayers.

I don't know anything about this so I can't give any advice, but I know you will receive some excellent recommendation's from others.

Huge hugs to you and Jake









Please keep us posted


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, I was worried about that. I'm so sorry it was malignant -- I know that you must be in shock right now. 

Things to look for in the report are whether the margins are clean, and if there is any indication of how aggressive the tumor was (in Indy's report they noted the "mitotic figures" and "index"). Indy had a mast cell tumor.

There are lots of things you can do.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Thanks Lisa,

I had to get off the computer and cry for awhile. Then I had to explain it all to my hubby.

When i get the report, I will post it so you can help me with it. I am sure I am going to need a lot of help. All the vet said was is didn't look really good, and right now it is a day to day thing, until we get the oncologist involved.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, 

I am SO sorry. There are some things you can do for cancer so please don't give up hope. Give Jake a big hug for me.


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## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy,
I don't know what to say except I'm so sorry. Try to stay optimistic. My thoughts and prayers are with you, Ken and Jake...


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Thanks Threedogs, Ruth, and Kris.

I won't give up. We were worried this is what it was going to be. We were just hoping for something better.

We are just overwhelmed. It has only been 3 months since we lost Princess, we want to do everything we can for Jake.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Oh Tammy, I am so sorry to hear about Jake. Hang in there until you get the Dr report and talk to the Onocoligst.


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## GSDLoverII

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Positive thoughts and prayers going out to Jake and you.


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Oh boy......

Gve Jake a hug and have one for yourself too. Keeping paws crossed for him.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE
> ...... All the vet said was is didn't look really good, and right now it is a day to day thing, until we get the oncologist involved.


Cr*p, that doesn't sound good.

But you really may not want to wait a couple of weeks if there are some things that you can jump on right as soon as you can post surgery, depending on the type of tumor.

I forget -- what are you feeding? Supplements?


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## natalie559

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy I am so sorry to hear about Jake. Pray that you caught it early enough! There is probably not much to say that will calm your fears, just know that we are all thinking of you!


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

I am still trying to post a copy of the report, but I can't get on photobucket. I will try and get it posted later today.

Anyhow, I spoke with the vet again. When I was reading the report it says it rarely metastasizes, so I wanted to talk to him about it.

It was a Malignant Peripheral Nerve Sheath Tumor.

It is considered Low Grade. (that made me feel a little better).

The Mitotic Index is 3. (That is considered low, anything of what I read above 4, would be medium)
The vet actually told me he is considered borderline low/medium. If we want to get technical.

This tumor is locally invasive, and frequently recur, but rarely metastasize, in the low grades. They often affect the limbs. They can cause neurological problems, lethargy, and lameness. 

The margins were clean in some areas, but in other areas the mass contacted the deep ink margin which could reflect deep tissue shrinkage. Per the vet, that could be a concern because of all the nerves surrounding the mass.



They often grow back within a year, but likely within a few months.

His prognosis is Fair to possibly long term- guarded.

Most of that info is from the report, and what the doc told me today.

He is on Kibble, Natural balance, Duck and Potato, Green Beans added, with a little can food.

The only supplements he gets is Cosequin, and a multi vitamin.

I am prepared to change his food to home cooked, or whatever it will take, plus whatever supplements he needs. I don't care the cost, or the time it will take.

He has a lot of food allergies, so I have to look into what I can cook for him.
Here is the report


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## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, I'm anxious for Lisa to read this and see her opinion. But, in my limited knowledge, it doesn't sound as bad as I thought from what you originally posted. Wish it would have been better news, but I'm positive that you'll get some good recommendations from the experts on here. Geesh...just don't know what else to say, 'cept give Jakie a big hug from me and mine!!!


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Kris,
Yeah, I feel a little better after seeing the report myself, and talking to the vet again this morning. His concern is the nerves surrounding the mass, and even though it is considered low grade, there is a big possibility that the nerves have already been affected, because of the location of the mass. I just have to wait and see what the oncologist says, and they may be doing more tests to see if there are any more masses throughout his body, that we are unaware of.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Hi Tammy. Cancer sucks.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of good info out there about this type of tumor, at least in terms of alternative or supportive care. Which, to me, means you start with the basic cancer stuff.

I also think that after surgery is an important time, because you have the least amount of cancer stuff in the body now, and you want to hit it before any of the remaining cancer cells have a chance to proliferte.

I would immediately be doing the flaxseed and cottage cheese treatment if he can tolerate them without his allergies being a problem. You can find all sorts of info regarding this on the web -- here's a recent post:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38929&page=1#Post38929

Other helpful supplements would include doing a search on IP-6, Wobenyzm, maybe selenium (p53 genetic mutation may be a link to mestastis), etc. There are many other supplements to consider.

Here's also a recent post I made, about cancer resources, and recent book that I just read:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440188&page=1#Post440188

If you are at all interested in doing radiation or chemo, I think this book is a must have. I still think it's a pretty good book otherwise also. I will try to look and see if there are specific recommendations in it for MPNST's. 

I would also make sure that you read the cinnamondog site -- Sander is the dog that started teaching me about living with cancer -- I knew that someday Indy would face this herself.

Here is a link to the yahoo cancer group:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineCancer/
a sad but often very helpful list. I did a search on "nerve sheath" there and there were over 200 hits, so maybe there is some helpful info there.

I have to leave the office now, let me know what you are thinking about all of this.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Okay, so I needed to leave over an hour ago, but didn't. But now I'm really going to leave, after I post this!

I think the biopsy report had some really good news -- the tumor was low grade, and, at least in mast cell tumors, mitotic index no more than three is in the "best prognosis" category.

The part to worry about is that the margins are extremely narrow, and in some cases not clean. But even with clean margins, from what I've read, recurrence might be common.

So it seems to me that there is a two stage battle -- try to prevent the cancer from recurring, and also try to protect the nerves, in case it recurs and stays local. 

I would consider looking at alpha-lipoic acid -- not so much as a cancer fighter (though it may help with that according to many reports), but it is one of the best things around for being neuroprotective:

http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=443026
http://www.geronova.com/ala.htm
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/appt/2005/00000010/00000002/00000810
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T76257.html


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Thanks Lisa,
Yeah, Cancer sucks, big time!
As much as I love all of you down here in the health section, I really didn't want to be here, yet, here I am.

I searched all night and this morning for info on this type, and I too, really didn't find out much, for supportive care.

I was going to start the flaxseed and cottage cheese treatment a couple weeks ago, but was concerned about the possibility of developing pancreatitis, which I heard is common. Should I not worry about that?

I will go research those other supplements you mentioned when I get done here. I will also check out that Yahoo cancer group Thanks. Maybe I will find more info there. 

I want to be armed with as much information as I can, before I talk to the oncologist.

What I think about this, is my poor Jake. He has proven his love so many times, every day of his life. He has always aimed to please.
Then I had to explain to my hubby it wasn't his fault. Jake is his boy, and he is hurting over this news even more than I am, if that is even possible.

So, I will do anything and everything, I can possibly do, to help him live a quality, pain free rest of his life.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTOkay,
> *The part to worry about is that the margins are extremely narrow, and in some cases not clean. But even with clean margins, from what I've read, recurrence might be common.*
> 
> So it seems to me that there is a two stage battle -- try to prevent the cancer from recurring, and also try to protect the nerves, in case it recurs and stays local.
> 
> I would consider looking at alpha-lipoic acid -- not so much as a cancer fighter (though it may help with that according to many reports), but it is one of the best things around for being neuroprotective:
> 
> http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=443026
> http://www.geronova.com/ala.htm
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/appt/2005/00000010/00000002/00000810
> http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T76257.html


That is the part the doc was concerned about.

I will look into alpha-lipoic acid. Thanks.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE......
> I was going to start the flaxseed and cottage cheese treatment a couple weeks ago, but was concerned about the possibility of developing pancreatitis, which I heard is common. Should I not worry about that?......


My Indy has had chronic pancreatitis off and on throughout all her life, and she does great with fresh ground flax (can't tolerate the oil). In dogs that tolerate oils, they say to use flax oil (with high ligands). In dogs that don't tolerate them, or you are worried about pancreatitis, go with the ground flax. Try a little at first -- you might try the flax separately from the cottage cheese to see if either cause a problem on their own. Start with small amounts.

I know that you will take good care of Jake - tell hubby that we'll all do what we can.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Ok Lisa,
I have been doing so much reading and researching, my eyes are burning. I have done a lot of reading on each supplement you listed.

I do have a question though. If i put him on the Selenium and Alpha-lipoic Acid, I found a supplement that has both of those in it. Would it be better to get each supplement by itself, because individually they have more mg?

I also joined the Yahoo cancer group. Very sad group, but some good information there. I haven't had a chance to post there yet, but I will.

OK, I am off to go read some more.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

I know what you mean about the bleary-eyed-ness (is that a word)?

If you can find a combination supplement with dosage that you think will work, then that's a good thing - cheaper, and less pills (and fillers) for Jake. 

I don't have a good sense on dosage. I suspect, in both cases, more is not better, but consistent amounts are more key. For the alpha-lipoic, I give both Indy (35 lbs) and Max (77 lbs) 50mg per day. Indy, because of her neurological problem, gets a larger dose than a dog her size would most likely need. My mom, because of stroke damage, takes 100 to 300 mg per day. Do you remember the amounts on the combo product that you found? 

I was looking at Messonnier's book and he has about 3 pages on sarcomas. Indy might be at risk for a type of fibrosarcoma from her lyme vaccine, so I already had it marked







. He said pretty much what you did above -- they don't mestastisize (sp?) easily, and tend to stay local. It is the side effects of the local tumor that tend to cause the problems, not the spread of the actual tumor. They are difficult to erradicate because they send out "tentacles" of cancerous cells, and local recurrence is very common. When they do spread, they do so via the bloodstream rather than the lymph nodes (I'm not sure of the implications of that). 

Be sure to give your eyes (and brain!) a break -- I know how consuming this is when you are on a mission.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Here is the link to the one I found. Jake is 100 lbs so according to the dosage on the bottle he would take 4 per day. Which would make the Alpha-Lipoic Acid 60 mg and the Selenium 4o mg. I am not sure if that would really be enough. I have to do some more research on the dosage. Also my concern would be if he would be getting too much of the other vitamins that are in it?
What do you think?
http://www.holisticpetinfo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Small_Animal_Antioxidant

I agree, it is the side effects of the local tumor, and that is what the vet is concerned with. I read about them spreading through the bloodstream and the implications, I will have to go through my bookmarks. I think I bookmarked atleast 60 different sites in the last 2 days. If I find it, I will post the link.

Yeah, I need to rest my eyes and brain, taking in too much all at once. But, when I get started on something, it is hard to quit. Ugh!


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Thorne makes good products -- I've never seen them sold directly before, I don't think. Everything in that product is good to be given to a dog with cancer, but I don't know if it's the best product for what you want. Here's the same product with a slightly different description:

http://wellvet.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=001&Product_Code=37

What multi-vitamin are you using?

edit: 
We might be looking at making sure your multi contains the appropriate stuff, with an antioxidant formula on top of it. My dogs get 200 mcg of extra selenium a week (in addiiton to their multi), and I think that's pretty sufficient. If there was a lung issue/cancer, I would increase that, but that type of dosing may be all you need.

Here's an example of another antioxidant product with cancer fighters, though I don't know about the red wine extract:

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Antioxidant-Complex

Let me think of a list of some of the most common cancer fighters, and see which ones you like too, and then narrow down what type of supplementation to focus on.

How does that sound?

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Antioxidant-Complex


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

His Vitamin is just the 1 regular Pet Tab, then he gets Cosequin DS, 3 a day.

I just switched his food to Innova Evo tonight. After doing some research, it is recommended for dogs with cancer. So I will see how that works for him.

quote"Let me think of a list of some of the most common cancer fighters, and see which ones you like too, and then narrow down what type of supplementation to focus on."quote

Sounds good.

I have a list I have found, so I will post those tomorrow, and see what you think also.


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## djpohn

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Here is a link about DHA 

This is a link to the main page with more info on cancer.

One of my boys has lymphoma and we have been undergoing chemo treatments since May. We have one treatment left in the protocol - Graduation Day!









Cancer is not necessarily a death sentence, but it certainly puts things in perspective! 

The yahoo groups are great for info. A little depressing, but very good support. You realize you are not alone.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

GS Mom,
Thanks for that link. The more information I get, the better.

I am sorry about your boy, but am happy to read his chemo is almost done. I hope he does well.

Yup, I joined the yahoo group, just haven't had time to post. I am quite tired of all the reading, but will probably post on there tomorrow.

I have another visit with the vet tomorrow.


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## natalie559

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE I have to look into what I can cook for him.


Segal's book Optimal Nutrition discusses diets for cancer and it also includes an interview with Dr. Greg Ogilvie, famous for the “cancer diet.”

http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25&products_id=101

She also has published a booklet on canine cancer, http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25_26&products_id=57

Canine Cancer: The Dietary Role by Monica Segal, AHCW

"This booklet draws on the author's experience with myths and hard facts about the dietary role in canine cancer. Offering information as well as two diet samples, this booklet, noting research and studies, also considers that the individual dog may be battling concurrent disease."


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## GSDBESTK9

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, I'm so sorry to hear about Jake. I hope and pray he makes a full recovery and it doesn't come back! At least not for a long long time.


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## djpohn

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Quote:Segal's book Optimal Nutrition discusses diets for cancer and it also includes an interview with Dr. Greg Ogilvie, famous for the “cancer diet.”


The links I provided is actually a link to the Hospital Website where Dr. Ogilivie works and he has reference pages on diet, treatment options and advice on what supplements to give or not to. He is my dogs Oncologist. They are very pro raw diet there if people want to feed it. A nurse there whose dog when through the protocol actually feeds his dogs raw - first person working in a vet hospital that dogs.


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## natalie559

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Originally Posted By: GS Mom
> The links I provided is actually a link to the Hospital Website where Dr. Ogilivie works and he has reference pages on diet, treatment options and advice on what supplements to give or not to.


Oops, I didn't read your link.


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## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*



> Quote:The links I provided is actually a link to the Hospital Website where Dr. Ogilivie works and he has reference pages on diet, treatment options and advice on what supplements to give or not to. He is my dogs Oncologist.


GS Mom, as you've probably discovered, there is no better veterinary oncologist than Greg Ogilvie. He is the kindest and most compassionate vet I've ever known. He treated my little sheltie/keeshond mix in 2000. She had a tumor on the side of her nose that he removed. He had not one, but three, pathologists look at the results to make sure his diagnosis was correct. Thankfully, it was not malignant.


Sending you a PM...


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## 2dogcrew

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, I haven't been on the board much lately but I have kept you and your Jake in my daily thoughts. I am really sorry you are having to take this journey with Jake. I am hoping he does well despite his diagnosis. 

>>>>>>>>>>Jake and Tammy<<<<<<<<<<<


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Thanks you guys for all the info and well wishes. Always very well appreciated.

Sorry I didn't post yesterday. Neither Jake or I were feeling well. Jake had become very lethargic, the night before and yesterday. Took him to the vet yesterday. They ran more blood work to make sure nothing has changed since the surgery. I should have those results later today.

Jake is actually much better today, so hopefully it wasn't anything major.

He should be getting his stitches out in a couple days, and that seems to be healing nicely.

Lisa,

I am thinking about going with the Thorne antioxident I posted, because everything in it would be good for the cancer. But I will be also supplementing with an additional 200mcg of Selenium. 

I think at this point it would be best for me to only add those two right now, and see how his system does with that, then I might go with more after his next bloodwork.

I still have to meet with the oncologist next week. When speaking with my vet yesterday, I told him what I was planning on supplementing, and told him the change of food, he agreed, and thought it was a great start, at least for now.

Depending on what the oncologist says, my vet said we will probably be doing blood work once a month to keep an eye on any change.

This type of cancer is not a candidtate for Chemo or radiation, they have not seen good results from it.

What do you think of all this? Opinions?


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, no, I didn't fall of the edge of the earth...sorry it took so long to get back to the board!!

When is your meeting with the oncologist? I'm very interested to see what he will say.

Okay, here's my thinking when it comes to cancer...

First get the diet straight (high protein, high in quality fats, low to no carbs and starches). That's why EVO is a better food if you are feeding kibble because it has no grains. It still may be starch based????

I do believe that a good multivitamin is important. Sometimes being mildy deficient in some nutrient can affect a lot of others from working properly. So you want a multi that is a bit broad in nutrients, and has quality ingredients.

Here's a link to the Pet Tabs:
http://www.petmarket.com/pet-tabs-dog-vitamins-365-tablets-p-1737.html
Here are the ingredients to a different one:
http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?...AE4FC81CA0AB36D
and compare with a high-powered super human product:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7717&at=0
(I received a free bottle of the last one, I am giving Indy one per day....wow, look at the human serving size!)

I started with the pet tabs years ago, but you may want to look at other products that don't have corn syrup, or use synthetic forms of vitamins, such as the dl-alpha instead of the d-alpha for the vitman E. for years I've given the Canine Plus, but I know that there are others out there.

After the diet and the multi, then there are some basic supplements that come to mind first, such as:
_flax oil (high lignans)/cottage cheese, IP-6, green tea, fish oil (dha preferred????), Wobenzym (proteolytic enzymes, given away from food), pancreatic enzymes (given with food), tumeric/curcumin with bioprene, mushroom products (like power mushrooms or mycoplex, and I know there are others), basic antioxidants (vit. C, E, selenium), CoQ-10, organic geranium, essaic tea (Flor essence), and I know there are many more things...._

For some specific cancers, like mast cell tumors, things like msm, bioflavanoids, quercitin, etc. to help with allergies and histamine response. Mct dogs probably have to be careful that supplements don't introduce any more allergies to the system. 

Different cancers will respond to some different things. For example, for cancers that excrete (that may not be the right word) Lewis antigen, tagamet is an extremely powerful anti-cancer drug (and very cheap in comparison). I don't know which tumors do this, though I read somewhere that about 70% of all tumors do this -- I wonder if an oncologist would know? For cancers where new growth of blood vessels is a problem, doxycline can also be a helpful drug. 

In any disease process that affects the nerves, things like alpha lipoic acid are important, as well as magnesium and all of the B vitamins (including the nerve form of B-12, methyl-whatever, instead of cyna-whatever).

In all cases of cancer, liver support is important, and thus the need for things like the Milk thistle , or Country Life's Liver Support Factors.

I think that the antioxidant product that you found is a good product. Everything in it is a known cancer fighter. The dose of the alpha lipoic acid may be high enough if you aren't seeing symptoms. I don't know how much selenium to give per day. I just give the extra 200 mcg of selenium on Fridays -- the dose for the selenium might be something that you can find on the cancer yahoo group, as I've seen some that have used it there, particularly those going through chemo. My dad religiously takes 100 mcg per day...if you give him 200 mcg, he'll cut it in half.....but this is also man that took only a half of a multivitmain a day for years (goofy guy). Now that he is nearing 80, I do think he's taking a whole one. AAAAhhh, but I digress!

The woman that runs this website:
http://www.naturalrearing.com/
has helped a number of "web friends" when their dogs got cancer. I would not hesitate to contact her. I did when Indy first got sick, but we didn't understand the nature of her disease process -- we thought it was infection based rather than immune system based.

Let me know what you're thinking.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

I wasn't worried Lisa, I knew you would be back when you have time. I've been in class all day, so just got on.

You know how much I appreciate all of your advice and info.

We will talk to the Oncologist on Tuesday. Let me sit down and take in all this info you provided, and I will get back with you on this. We did see the doc today, I will let you know how that went , in just a bit.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Tammy, I know in a previous post, the vet said it didn't look good, I guess after Tuesday you will have a better idea. The one good thing I did read about sarcomas is the potential for them to grow very slowly.

I forgot to ask, if you would consider homecooked or raw? I would also consider emailing the woman that has this website: http://www.cinnamondog.com/ . I think it was over 7 years that Sander lived with his tumor, until he died of old age.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

Lisa,
Sorry it took me so long. I had to get all this put together, so it will make some sense.

This is what I am thinking. I did switch Jake to Evo, several days ago. So far he is doing well on it. How would I know if it is starch based? I can't find anything on the bag that says anything about starches? I wanted to do home cooked, but after asking several different people, and emailing several different people, plus searching online, I had received no help with that, and I have NO CLUE where to start to home cook. I just have no idea how much to feed, what to feed, and what to add, to make sure it is balanced. So , since I got no where with that, I wanted to get his food changed as soon as possible. He was doing fine on the Natural Balance, it was no grain also, but I know the Evo is better, because of the High Protien, High Fat, Low Carb. I will still consider home cooking, but for now, I just bought him two 28 lbs of Evo, so let me get through that.

Supplements, OK, gosh, so many decisions.
I want to use:

Canine Plus Multi, much better I think than the Pet tabs.
Thorne Antioxident
CoQ-10
IP-6
Selenium
Vit C
Vit E

Oh, I also have the Flaxseed oil, and want to do the cottage cheese with that, but, I can not find anywhere, where it gives the proper amount to give. I don't want to give too much of that. Would you know?

What do you think of this list, for a start? Anything I am missing, that should be added? I would like to get this all ordered asap.

We took Jake back to the vet yesterday. He got his stitches out, and healing nicely. He has continued to have a slight cough, so we were concerned, but the cough is becoming less, and the vet insisted after looking him over, it is still just a little irritation from the surgery, for us not to worry.

I asked him again how he felt about Jakes prognosis, since he originally told me it didn't look good. He told me after reading the report, and doing the surgery himself, he does feel good that we don't need to worry too much as long as we are being proactive. His concern was some of the narrow margins, and so close to all the nerves, especially where the Tumor was located. Most likely it will grow back in a few months and could be more complicated with the nerves. This is why he wants the Oncologist involved. 

The Oncologist will be back in town on Monday, and said we should be able to talk with him on Tuesday.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

I think you have a good plan. 

The EVO protein comes from meat and not from grains, which makes it heads and tails better than any traditional kibble out there. The potatoes in it introduce the starches to the diet, which do metabolize to sugars. Overall, this is probably one of the best kibbles to use for a dog with cancer though. 

I completely understand about the homecooking. It's a lot of work, and it takes quite a bit to figure out at first, and right now you have other things to get organized and focus on. I'm glad that he's handling the EVO well. I tried it for my two homecooking monsters and they were so sick....they can't handle anything processed -- just drives me batty -- can't even eat canned veggies or salmon -- they have to be frozen or fresh. Ugh. 

I like your supplement list to start with (and then see the response), only I might consider adding a B-50 supplement, only because Jake's particularly cancer affects the nerves and the B-vitamins are so critical to nerve function. One online place that I've used and am very happy with is http://www.vitacost.com .

I know that a "sheltie" size dose of flax for one sheltie was a scoop of cottage cheese and one tsp of oil per day. If you ever decide to use a digestive enzyme, you would want to use it with the meal that contains the most oil. Maybe it's best to give this divided doses? So you could start with a bit, and work up to a tablespoon a day for a GSD? I don't think that anyone knows the actual dose for a dog, but individual tolerance.

For the vitamin E, do be sure to used a mixed tocopherol form (twinlab has one calle super E complex, or something like that). For the C, calcium or sodium ascorbate is easier on the stomach, I'm told. 

Okay, my battery is about dead, I better post this.......


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery UPDATE!!*

OK Lisa,
I have my list ready to order. I am going to use what I posted above Plus the B-50. I checked vitacost, and they carry a few of the supplements I am ordering. I will also order a digestive enzyme for him. I do want to use that since I will be giving the cottage cheese and Flaxseed oil.
So i think I am on track now, and see how he does with all of this. So, hopefully helping him with his nutritional needs, we could be ahead of the game, in fighting this, and preventing it from spreading. 

I will let you know more after Tuesdays conversation with the Oncologist.

Lisa, Thank you so very much for all the help.


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## flyinghayden

Don't know much about this stuff, but good luck, and hugs to Jake from the girls and myself.


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## TMarie

Thank you Richard, and ((hugs)) back to you and the girls.

I feel so much better now, that I have everything on its way, and feel like I have a handle on all this.
I have just been so drained with all the reading and researching which supplements would be best.

It has been a learning experience, that is for sure!

I will be getting on the Yahoo group after I find out more from the Oncologist tomorrow.


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## LisaT

Sometimes just making a decision is the hardest part. It's not always clear where to start.

I've read that with a mast cell tumor that the survival rate at 30 weeks is roughly the same as it is at 5 years (or maybe 7 years, can't remember), so no recurrences in that time for Indy is the first benchmark that we are striving for. It sounds like with Jake's tumor, just getting to several months with no regrowth will be an important step, and hopefully you'll get here and that will be an indicator that you're headed in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the oncologist says (though I'm prepared for him to not believe in any of the supplments). Best of luck tomorrow!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Wow-you have worked so well together-this thread is another great resource for people. 

XOXO to Jake-looking forward to a great report tomorrow.


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## TMarie

I am hoping the Oncologist agrees with the supplements. My vet does. When I mentioned to him about the research I was doing on selecting the right ones, he was in agreement with me. So it would be nice if the Oncologist is too, but you never know. 
Regardless, I will do and try whatever I have to, to help Jake.

When we first got the report back and spoke with my Vet, I just cried, and told the vet whatever it took, no matter how much money, we needed to fix this. I was probably a little hysterical. LOL. I just started with this vet a few months ago, and he is getting to know me quite well. He even hugged me when I cried.

Jake and I have been through a lot together, and Jake provides something for me that I can't really explain on this board, I just can't lose right now. So I know, with all your help Lisa, I am doing what is best with the supplements.

I will update tomorrow.


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## djpohn

> Quote:Oh, I also have the Flaxseed oil,


Flaxseed oil may make existing allergies worse, so you might want to keep an eye on this. Also I was told not to give Rainer vitamin c or e, so you might want to check this out with the oncologist. You also might want to get your dog on a form of DHA. It is found in fish body oil, but Dr Ogilvie prefers the plant based products so reduce the possible exposure to heavy metal poisoning. We use a product made by the enfimile company for pregnant and nursing mothers.


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## TMarie

> Originally Posted By: GS Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Oh, I also have the Flaxseed oil,
> 
> 
> 
> Flaxseed oil may make existing allergies worse, so you might want to keep an eye on this. Also I was told not to give Rainer vitamin c or e, so you might want to check this out with the oncologist. You also might want to get your dog on a form of DHA. It is found in fish body oil, but Dr Ogilvie prefers the plant based products so reduce the possible exposure to heavy metal poisoning. We use a product made by the enfimile company for pregnant and nursing mothers.
Click to expand...

Do you know the reason why you were told not to give Vitamin C and E? 
Just curious as to why, and I will mention it to the Oncologist tomorrow.
Everything I have read says it should be given.


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## LisaT

I know that some modifications in supplements may need to be made if you are doing chemo or radiation -- I don't know how the C and E relates to chemo for the lymphoma -- I haven't looked at that -- maybe that's why GS Mom posted that? 

Jarrow also has a DHA supplement, but I don't know if it's fish or plant based. I bought some because many of the regular fish oils contain a high percentage of oil that's not O-3 it seems.


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## djpohn

The reasons were in the info I posted the links for the other day. Here is the link again DHA and the role it plays in tumor suppression. 
I would suggest reading this information and possibly having your oncolgist look up some of the reference materials. They have done alot of studies and with some treatments it is unwise to supplement with some anti-oxidents as they negate the effects of the DHA. You don't want to throw too much at your dog as some of the supplements may aid tumor growth!


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## LisaT

I didn't see the reasons for no vitamin C in the link -- maybe I missed it?

For the vitamin E:

_DHA...Induces lipid peroxidation which enhances the efficacy of radiation and chemotherapy induced cancer cell death; this effect is diminished or reduced dramatically with vitamin E._

Which says that the vitamin E might be an issue when doing chemo or radiation. In those cases, I would still want to do a review of the studies and also look at which form of vitmain E is used.

I think that if you are doing no chemo and no radiation, the basic antioxidants can are very helpful -- the question then is how much, or how much is too much. At least without doing any further research.

Of course, it may also depend on the type of cancer. For mast cell, hands down I would be adding E and C because they help with allergies.


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## djpohn

Basically since Dr Ogivilie is a very well know Oncologist and has been studying the current protocols since her was at CSU, I listened very carefully to his instructions in what to give and not give my dog. You can look up the studies sited in any of his reference materials. I am reaping the benefits of all those dogs and cats that he has treated over the years - all the trials and studies that they have conducted. When he told me not to give something I didn't. I also ran any other supplement I wanted to give by him first. Since I was spending 5K+ I wasn't going to risk the success of my dogs treatment on the word of someone on the internet. I also would have a problem adding a million different supplements to my dogs diet - sometimes less is better. I did add a DMG supplement and I think this helped his immune system because his white counts increased dramatically once he was on them. I also helps with liver function which is another benefit.

Today was graduation day for Rainer! He had his last treatment and remains in remission! His blood work came back great and I hope that he will stay in complete remission for a long time.

good luck with you dog, I hope that you have good luck with what ever treatment you choose.


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## TMarie

I am here. Sorry, I didn't get back sooner. It has been crazy here, plus computer problems. Ugh!

I have not gotten to see the Oncologist yet. My vet had called me and told me the Oncologist hadn't gotten back yet. Now, I am still waiting, so frustrating, I am tired of waiting. The only good thing about waiting, is this just gives me more time to have everything together, with all my notes and questions to ask him.

GSmom, I really appreciate your advice and information, and thanks for the links. I did read the link the first time you posted. When I was first notified of Jake's diagnosis, getting on here and getting as much information as I could, helped me in the right direction to do research on his particular cancer and all the supplement recommendations.
If I would not of gotten the supplement help from Lisa, I would of had no idea where to start looking. I have never used these type of supplements before, so this has helped educate me.
I have researched Dr.Ogilvie, quite a bit, since you gave me his name. I also spoke with my vet about him, and his oncologist consults with Dr. Ogilvie, so I have great confidence, once I speak to the Oncologist here, I will know further that I will be doing everything right.
I am very happy to hear that your boy is in remission, Big Conratulations.

Lisa,
I found this site with lots of great info from Dr. Ogilvie.
http://web.archive.org/web/2001021323490...erals,%20Garlic

I do know that talking to my vet, and doing research, His Cancer is a Soft Tissue Sarcoma, and the type of Cancer is not a candidate for Chemo, they don't get positive results with it. They can do radiation, but where the tumor was located, they disagree with the Radiation also. Sadly, most Tumors like his are in the limbs, and normally the limbs have to be amputated. It is very rare that it would occur in his lip. If it were to spread, which is also rare, it would go into the lungs. Leave it to my boy, to be the uncommon one, and make things a little more difficult. It most likely will recur, and if it does, it is going to be more difficult to remove because once it regrows, it will affect more nerves, of what I am told. So, my goal is to help prevent it from regrowing.
I do agree with the DHA, and according to the vet, and my research, Vit C and E will be important for this type of Cancer. So once I have that consultation with the Oncologist, I will be bringing all of this up, with plenty of questions.

Ugh, we are getting there. I'am just playing the waiting game.


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## ThreeDogs

Just wanted to let you and your family know that you are all in my thoughts and prayers.

I check every time I log on to see how he is doing, so please make sure to update.

I wish Jake a speedy recovery and your family the strength you will need to make it through this.


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## LisaT

Tammy, thanks for that link -- I always forget about the web archive link. Ogilvie used to have several good articles online, and they disappeared after he moved. I think I have many of them on disk *somewhere*.

Clemmons also has a cancer page, though that's not his primary area: 
http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/AltMed/Cancer/Cancer_AltMed.htm

That's frustrating that you didn't get to see the oncologist -- Grrrr -- though I did have a question maybe for the oncologist that I've now forgotten!! I'll try to remember it.

If it spreads first to the lungs, then I guess some of the your supplements not only need to support the nerves, but to protect the lungs. I think that the selenium will do that. Vit. A may also -- I think there is some of that in your Thorne product.

I find the DHA interesting, as I recently bought some fish oil that was primarily DHA -- I just thought it was a better product for Max. Didn't know why, just a hunch I was following.


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## TMarie

You are welcome Lisa. I also have Dr. Clemmons cancer page bookmarked. I feel like I have been studying for a test, and don't want to fail. LOL. I probably could recite everything I have read by memory.

I haven't heard from the vet yet. So if I don't hear tonight, I will be calling tomorrow. So frustrating, because I have lots of questions. If you think of your question let me know, I will be sure to ask.

This vet is so funny, because I don't have to make an appt, I just show up. He also handles his own emergencies. He never told me when to come back and get his stitches out, so when I would call, he would just say "in a few days". Then a few days pass, and he calls and says to come in when I can. Funny. He also does house calls.

His oncologist is on the other side of town, and I am rather getting a little impatient, so I am hoping tomorrow.

I do think all the supplements I listed will help support everything I need, including the lungs.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: TMARIE.... I feel like I have been studying for a test, and don't want to fail. LOL. I probably could recite everything I have read by memory....


OMG, that's too funny. Particularly because I'm in the middle of midterm week and the timing is perfect with all the tension in the air around here right now.

But in all seriousness, I know exactly how you feel, as I have similar issues with trying to balance Indy's issues -- she had the mast cell tumor and probably a still active bone infection, but I can't boost her immune system because of the disease induced by her lyme vaccine. It does feel like one wrong step could have high consequences.

Your vet sounds like a winner...too bad there aren't more of those around.


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## TMarie

Ok, my vet called this morning. He gave my number to the Oncologist, He should be calling me any moment. I already know what he is going to say, because my vet told me. 
I was hoping this wasn't the case, but I think I already knew. We might already be looking at the possibility of the cancer already in his lungs . there is more, but I will update as soon as I talk with him.
Bare with me, I am using my hubby's computer, and I keep having to retype this.


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## LisaT

What are they looking at to determine whether there is cancer in the lungs?


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## TMarie

I just got off the phone with the Oncologist. It is only a possibility of the cancer in the lungs. He said the tumor was not completely excised, according to the report with the narrow margins. It may not of spread yet. He said it is rare that this type of tumor grows in the lip, but he has seen cases that is has, and by the time the tumor is noticed by us, normally it would have already spread to the lungs.
It normally will spread either in the lungs or the lymphnodes. 
We have an appointment next Tuesday with him. He will do chest xrays, and he will also want to do a biopsy of the lymphnodes. If there is no evidence of the cancer in those places, then there is a 90% chance it has not spread.
I told him about all the supplements we talked about and the food, he is in agreement with all of that, and said to get started on those right away for now.
I really liked him, and he did not rush me off the phone.

I have been concerned about the lungs because he has been coughing a little, but that could just be me worrying. Now I am just going to be worrying more.


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## BowWowMeow

Tammy, 

Wow, this is very scary. Jake does look so tired in that photo. I've been through this and I don't know what's worse--knowing or not knowing.







It's very hard to watch them suffer. I hope the supplements and food help make him feel better. I would just keep doing extra special things with him. I'll keep you guys in my thoughts!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Tammy-I mentioned in the picture thread my Flaky Reiki thought. It doesn't guarantee anything but does no harm, so I like it. It can also be done remotely if you believe in it, which I now do. Today both Kramer and I were out running in the yard after our remote sessions on Tuesday night and both of us had a good week. 

You can google it to read up on it-I don't want to give you any sites-let you draw your own conclusions!


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## LisaT

Tammy, It's nice to have someone that can help you and knows how this awful disease process progresses. That can help determine what to attack it with. I'm glad you like the oncologist and that he is supportive and knowledgable about the supplements. That's huge right there.

Hopefully we can make Jake one of those dogs you hear about on the boards that have been able to do amazing things (of course, with a lot of hard work on the part of his human).

I have to go, but I was doing a search on lung cancer, and I ran across these. In case you haven't seen them....

http://www.lef.org/newsletter/2007/2007_04_13.htm#exc

http://www.lef.org/protocols/cancer/lung_cancer_01.htm

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-027a.shtml

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-153b.shtml


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## TMarie

Thanks Threedogs and Ruth for the good wishes.

Jean, thanks, I will look it up, I never heard of it before.

Lisa, I haven't had a chance to look anything up, so thanks for the links.
Right now, I am hoping for a miracle, that come next week, we will find out it didn't spread. I am hoping and praying to anything holy right now. The next few days are going to be long.


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## LuvourGSDs

You & Jake are still in our thoughts & prayers









I know how hard this is & thinking of you big time & this terrible time in your life.









Big huges to Jake from us.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: TMARIE.....The next few days are going to be long.


I guess there's nothing that can change that. I'm so sorry Tammy.


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## TMarie

You know what is really lousy timing. My computer died last night. I have no access to all the bookmarks I saved with all my research and notes for him.
When I spoke with the Oncologist this morning, I had to go by memory of all the things I have read. I had my notes all written for when I was able to talk to him,but had not printed them yet. I am sure I had more questions, but don't remember them now. 
Luckily I already had all his supplements on their way here, so I didn't have to guess where to get them from.

I was really pleased that he was on board with the supplements. He actually told me he was impressed with the knowledge I had of the supplements and his cancer. Yup, I took a crash course on the subject, and I think I might even be getting a passing grade. Ha. Thanks to you Lisa. You have been a big help.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANTammy-I mentioned in the picture thread my Flaky Reiki thought. It doesn't guarantee anything but does no harm, so I like it. It can also be done remotely if you believe in it, which I now do. Today both Kramer and I were out running in the yard after our remote sessions on Tuesday night and both of us had a good week.
> 
> You can google it to read up on it-I don't want to give you any sites-let you draw your own conclusions!


I went through a Reiki course and it's pretty cool stuff







I think it's a good way to bring in positive healing intentions


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## LisaT

Tammy, I'm glad that I can help, and hopefully within a couple of months, you'll have a dog with little to no regrowth. 

That's cool that the onc was pleased with all the work that you've done so far. I really think that you have to pat yourself on the back a little bit too. I've seen a lot of folks on the board that "will do anything" for their dog, but never put half the effort that you have already put in. I know that you are fighting for Jake's life, and your love and respect for him is very apparent.

I can't believe that your computer died. I sure hope that you can get it up and running, or at least be able to retrieve your hard drive. And when you get going, what's the magic word? BACKUP! I only say that because that's what I spent part of last night doing -- I had to back up all the important stuff on my laptop.


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## TMarie

> Originally Posted By: LisaTTammy, I'm glad that I can help, and hopefully within a couple of months, you'll have a dog with little to no regrowth.
> 
> That's cool that the onc was pleased with all the work that you've done so far. I really think that you have to pat yourself on the back a little bit too. I've seen a lot of folks on the board that "will do anything" for their dog, but never put half the effort that you have already put in. I know that you are fighting for Jake's life, and your love and respect for him is very apparent.
> 
> I can't believe that your computer died. I sure hope that you can get it up and running, or at least be able to retrieve your hard drive. And when you get going, what's the magic word? BACKUP! I only say that because that's what I spent part of last night doing -- I had to back up all the important stuff on my laptop.


I know NOTHING about computers. My husband does the backups so I know I have everything. We think it might be the video card, because it just lost the display. He took it to get repaired, so hopefully It won't take too long. UGH!!

Thanks for the kind words Lisa. I feel like I am sitting in limbo now, and there is nothing else I can do, but wait for the more tests next week. 
When my husband came home from work last night, he was so sad. I told him we need to keep positive and just hope for the best, and do everything we can do. Regardless of the test results next week, my husband is planning on special day trips every weekend for just Jake and him. Jake has always enjoyed traveling and being out in the fresh air, enjoying the company of his dad. 

Jake woke up with more energy this morning. He came running to me , with a little more bounce to him, just happy to see me. So we played ball, his favorite thing. Those are the moments we will cherish, and hope after next week, we discover we will have many more of those.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: TMARIE...... Those are the moments we will cherish, and hope after next week, we discover we will have many more of those.


I hope so too.

I've also seen on occasion, that after a bunch of changes in the diet and the supplements, somtimes amazing things can happen, in spite of the tests. So i hope also that this is the case for Jake.


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## 2dogcrew

Jake


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## CherryCola

Sending lots of hugs (and puppy kisses) from myself and Cherry


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## TMarie

Thanks Kim and Cathy.

We will be leaving for the Oncologist in just a few moments. Please, Please wish us good luck. I am hoping and Praying we get good news.


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## ThreeDogs

Huge







hugs







and positive thoughts for Jake.


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## BowWowMeow

Will be thinking of you today!


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## arycrest

Sending warm thoughts and prayers for you and Jake today!!!


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## kshort

My thoughts are with you guys, Tammy...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ack. I saw new posts and thought she'd posted. I hope they are out getting ice cream and having a good time together.


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## 2dogcrew

I've been thinking of them all afternoon. I'm a nervous wreck!


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## WiscTiger

Yep I just got back and had to pop in to see if there is any news.


----------



## 2dogcrew

Oh please, let's have good news for Jake. Pretty please.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Ok, We just got back a little bit ago. It took us almost an hour to get there. This place was clearly on the opposite side of town from us.

The Onc spoke with us in depth about this type of Cancer, boy was he thorough, but very understanding and clear.
He took Xrays of his Lungs, and did a Lymph node aspirate. 

We are only half way there, but His lungs are CLEAR!!







Did you read that right? His lungs are CLEAR!!







I am so HAPPY!! I had a very bad feeling about the lungs, my gut is normally right. This time my gut was wrong, and I couldn't be happier. 

We are not out of the woods yet. I have to call back tomorrow afternoon to get the results of the biopsy for the Lymph nodes. *sigh*

The Onc said the third place this is most likely to spread, if not the Lungs, or Lymph nodes, it could spread to the liver or/and spleen. He would like to also do an ultra sound and some other tests on those, after this report comes back tomorrow. 
If those all come out clear, then he recommends another surgery to cut a wider margin where the tumor was, in hopes to get all of the cancer. 
If they find cancer in the lymph nodes, or liver/spleen, then no surgery will be performed, and they will then discuss what the next step is.

So, we still have a lot of waiting, more test, more hoping.

Jake was super. everyone loved him, and he kissed everyone that came up to him.

When he told me the lungs were clear, I almost dropped to my knees in tears. 

Yes, we did go have ice cream. He deserved it after today.









Now everyone, please keep good vibes coming for tomorrows test results, and I will post as soon as I get them.

Thank you everybody, I don't know what I would do without all of you here, and LisaT, you know how I feel about you, THANK YOU!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Tammy, 

What a HUGE relief!!!!!!!!! Keep us posted on tomorrow's results.


----------



## 2dogcrew

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Oh Tammy!!!!! This was the best news!!!







I'm so proud of our Jake who has been so brave and such a good boy. I hope he knows how much he means to us. Can you give him another dip of ice cream tomorrow? From us? 





























Jake


----------



## Barb E

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

I've been following but haven't posted but wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you!!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Tammy, that is good news for Jake. Glad he was such a good boy and you gave him some Ice Cream for being such a good boy. We will keep sending out the good vibes.


----------



## mspiker03

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Like Barb, I too have been following this thread (and sending postive thoughts), but haven't posted. Will keep sending those good vibes in hopes that tomorrows news is just as good!


----------



## Avamom

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Ditto...have been following closely....first place I checked when I got into work this morning. I am sooo glad his lungs were clear. Sending positive thoughts to both of you!!!!


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Tammy, I cannot expressed how relieved I am to hear about the lungs!! I hope you found something extra to give that furry boy of yours to celebrate!!!

After Indy's surgery, the vet wasn't sure if she got enough, so we talked about having to do another one after the pathology report. We were fortunate that we didn't have to do that.

Wow, I am so glad the lungs were clear.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Thank you so much everybody, for the good thoughts, prayers, and well wishes.

We feel like part of the weight has been lifted. Of course we are nervous about the results today, but are keeping positive thoughts, and hoping for the best. Hopefully the Lymph nodes will be clear too. Then we will go to the next step.

Lisa, the Onc told me that where Jakes tumor was located, and going by the pathology report, he knows the cancer is still there, and if his other tests come back clear, he wants one of his surgeons to do the surgery. He said they will have to take some of the lip, in order to feel confident that they get it all. Even though this type of cancer is slow spreading, there are times they grow faster, and in Jake's case, he feels it did grow faster, and expects it to come back within the next couple of months.

I had brought my list of supplements with me, and the Onc was pleased with our choice. I received all of them Monday, and yesterday, so Jake has now started those. 

So, unless they find it has spread in the Lymph nodes, liver or spleen, we will continue with the supplements, and may be looking into others as well. 

I will update this afternoon after I speak with him.

Oh, by the way, I am so glad I give Jake an allowance every week, because this has been very costly, but he is worth every penny


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Good news Tammy!!!

I have been watching her to see how things were going. 

Hoping the best news again later today on the lymph nodes.


----------



## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

Tammy - that's terrific news!! Keeping all fingers crossed that the other tests come back great too. I know that will be a tremendous relief. Will anxiously check back on this thread...


----------



## LadyHawk

*Re: Jake is having surgery, Oncologist update*

That's so nice to hear- We will be keeping our fingers (and paws crossed) and saying special prayers for you both....
We pray all of his tests come back showing no sign of cancers too.......


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*








His Lymph nodes are clear!!!









That is 2 out of 3, so far. I am crying, I am so relieved.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

















ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*
















YEA great news.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*






















GREAT NEWS!!!


----------



## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

WOOHOO!!!!!!


----------



## Qyn

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Great news. I'm very happy for Jake and for you.


----------



## Jazzstorm

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*


----------



## LandosMom

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

excellent excellent news! i have been lurking here too, hoping and praying. wow. that is fantastic!


----------



## ThreeDogs

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*
























So very happy for you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Avamom

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thank you so much everybody! We are finally feeling like things are looking up for Jake, Thank goodness.

I didn't say much yesterday because I was just crying with relief. I had to wait until my husband called me from work so I could tell him. This was like the best news I could give him. He came home with some nice treats for Jake.

Jake will be going in on Monday for the Ultra sound of the liver and spleen, (there was something else, but I just can't remember what it was). The chances that the cancer had spread there are low, so we aren't too worried about that, of course I probably should not of said that. Ugh!

After that test, then he will be scheduled for another surgery. Then it will just be a matter of us being proactive and preventing it from coming back, or at least at a slower rate.

The Onc was telling me yesterday how pleased he was with the results and that he was surprised with the tumor being on the lip, that it hasn't spread already, since that is a rare place. We feel Jake has been blessed, since being told it shows up more often on a limb, and they normally amputate, because it is very difficult to remove all of the cancer, due to the bone.

I do have to go over his body daily to catch any lumps, no matter how small. Jake and I both enjoy that time of bonding, so no problem there.

So, slowly, one test at a time, we are getting there.

(((Hugs to all of you))) for your support.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

What a HUGE relief.

I'm not sure what to say, except that I can start breathing now -- I was holding my breath, waiting for those test. I think we all were!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTWhat a HUGE relief.
> 
> I'm not sure what to say, except that I can start breathing now -- I was holding my breath, waiting for those test. I think we all were!



When I told my husband the results that is exactly what he said "I can breathe now". When he came home last night he just got on the floor with Jake and hugged him, and his eyes teared up. 

I am so glad I didn't have to give him bad news, because telling my husband would of been the worst thing I could of ever done to him.

My husband has been working exceptionally long hours the last few months, 6 and 7 days a week. After this, he decided to take more time off to spend at home with all of us, but especially Jake. Effective immediately, he will be only working 5 days a week again. Jake is our world, that once in a lifetime dog. We both know not to take for granted the time we have with him.

We still have the other tests, then the surgery, but the worst is behind us, at least for now.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

The entire experience kinda changes your perspective a bit, doesn't it?

It sounds like some very positive changes are being made!!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yes there are! Hubby started a new job just 2 weeks before we lost Princess. He went in full force, putting in way too many hours, that he really didn't have to, but he was hired to change the company, so that happens. Then Jake really got depressed without Princess, they were very close, but at the same time, he got a double whammy, because his dad wasn't home as much. Jake also use to go to work 3 times a week with his dad, so, many changes in his life in just a few short months.

I know we will all be ok now. Jake is on the road to recovery. His energy has also picked up in the last 2 days.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Several years ago I had to stop taking Indy in with me -- I know that she really misses that. I'm so glad that *many* things are looking better right now!!

At some point, you'll have to tell us what kind of insights that the Onc gave you, what more he said about the supps, etc.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

This will probably be long. So I apologize in advance.

When we first had seen the Oncologist, I felt like we were in class. He had a dry erase board on the wall. He drew several pictures of the cancer, how it spreads, and wrote everything down. He explained the type of cancer, what it can and will do. What we can do now and in the future to help Jake. He said they look at the whole picture, Jake’s health, age, lifestyle, if one of us is home all day with him, etc, to determine what the best action to take with his type of cancer. If the cancer had spread to his lungs or lymph nodes, he would suggest radiation, depending on how much cancer was there. If it was advanced, he would suggest leaving things as they are, with supplements, and let him live out the rest of his life as is, taking one day at a time. Since those are clear, we don’t have to think about that, right now. If there is evidence of cancer in the spleen or liver, again, depending on how advanced, they could do surgery and radiation, but that would determine on how advanced the cancer was also, because he believes the quality of life is more important than the quantity. At his age, it would be something to really think about, as to which way would be best. We are hoping we don’t have to think about that.

He said the CoQ10 works in the body to produce energy and act as an antioxidant and stimulates the immune system and increases the resistance to disease.
IP-6 is a potent antioxidant and an active ingredient in fiber, which has great cancer fighting properties. It has been known to prevent the growth and shrink tumors.
He explained that most cancer cells show a deficiency in enzymes. In order for a normal cell to work properly, it must have good proteins, vitamins, and minerals reinforced daily. The body requires metabolic enzymes to build these materials into the blood, nerves, tissues, and organs. If we use most of our enzyme power for digestion and less for running our body, we are inviting cancer. So, using enzyme supplements to help with digestion, we will then have plenty of enzyme power to run cells properly, and may be able to help prevent and fight cancer.
He told me Vit. E and Selenium act as antioxidants, but need to be given in the proper balance.
Vit. C is an antioxidant and acidifier. A body that is alkaline aids cancer growth, so, many oncologists believe an acidic body may slow down cancer growth. 
He suggests Vit B for stress management, and to help support the nervous system and metabolism.
I didn’t have all his supplements with me, because I hadn’t received them all by that time. I did have the bottle of the Thorne antioxidant. He read the bottle and likes what it had to offer, with all the cancer fighting ingredients. He said with all the supplements I listed plus the Thorne, he feels is a great start to help fight and prevent the regrowth of the tumor, or slow the growth.
He does feel right now, the normal recommended dosages on each bottle is all I should give Jake at this time. As long as the spleen and liver come out clean, he recommends blood work done every 2 months to keep on top of any changes, unless we see other outward changes before then.

Most of this, you probably already knew. I knew most of this by doing all the reading I have done in the last month, but to have him confirm what I was thinking, helped a great deal. He says, Jake is in great shape, he has lost muscle mass, but that is also due to his hip dysplasia, and not being as active as he once was. This cancer can actually spread anywhere. Even though we have done the Xrays, biopsies, and doing the ultra sound of the liver and spleen. There is still a chance the cancer cells are somewhere else, but the chances are slim. This is why using the supplements, and doing the blood work, checking his body daily for any signs of new lumps is very important now. 

I hope this all made sense, I am going by all my notes I took while talking to him, and I tried to condense them.

I am a little worried about doing a second surgery. I don’t know why, just for some reason it bothers me.
As I am writing this, Jake is acting a little off again, and trying to hide under my desk and behind the sofa. UGH! Poor boy, I really wish he could speak to me where I could understand what he is feeling at this very moment.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

That was a great report back Tammy. While I think we saw a lot of this written when researching, having everything "put together" makes a nice complete package.

I found it interesting that he said that most cancer cells show a deficiency in enzymes. I know that any dog that tends to be enzyme deficient has a higher potential for cancer - I learned that when I put Indy on enzymes long ago, but I didn't realize that there is an actually deficiency in the cancer cells. I put Indy on the Wobenzym after her tumor was removed, which is an enzyme product not used for digestion, but for the body.

I wish I had better insight into that hiding thing too. I've often thought about trying to use a communicator for Indy, but I had one bad experience with a vet that used to use one, so it would have to be someone that came very highly recommended. It sure would be nice to know what's going through his mind when he does that, wouldn't it?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yes, I feel like we both read pretty much everything he told me. Which kind of made me feel a little better listening to him, I knew what he was talking about.

He did mention the Wobenzym for Jake too, but told me to just use what I have for now and see how he does.

I have a great animal communicator I have used quite a bit here. I haven't had her come over in the last 2 years, I think I will give her a call. You never know what she may come up with. She was good and told me things, I knew she could not of known.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

If you decide to bring her in, let us know what happens.

I am really impressed with the Onc -- I've read of so many on yahoo cancer list that really don't believe in any of the supplements, etc. 

Okay, so tell me, are you far from the new Cabelas that is opening up in Nevada? I told hubby that we might have to take a road trip just to see the extravaganza (sp????).


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Cabelas is opening in Reno. I am in Vegas, so quite far I am afraid. Reno is a good 7 hour plus drive from me, depending on how fast one drives.

But, if you happen to drive through Vegas, you definitely need to let me know. Jake and I would love to meet you.

I am really impressed with the Onc too. When I gave him the list of supplements, I had them all printed on a piece of paper. He wrote each one down on the board and talked about the benefits of each one.


----------



## Skye'sMom

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy;

I think of you and Jake every day. I haven't posted before, having nothing to add to all the great information on supplements and food you and Lisa have posted.

I am so glad that many of Jake's tests came back good. You are doing so much and taking such great care of him.

I do have a thought about the hiding - it could be instinctive. Dogs tend not to show pain or weakness. While he is not at his best, he may have a need to find a snug, safe 'cave.'

If you have a soft crate (maybe even smaller than you would usually use for his size), you might want to fill it with soft blankets and comforters he can nest in. Just leave the flap down but show him he can get in and out.

Put it near you, but where it is kind of hemmed in for him and see if he chooses that over trying to get behind the couch.

Or you could just pull the couch out some and make that his 'cave.'

It could be he sleeps or rests better when he feels hidden.

Best of luck to you both with this health challenge.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh Bonnie, Thank you. You have given me a great idea. I do have a soft crate for one of my aussies when we take her to her flyball tournaments.
I remember one time I had it set up in the livingroom, it is a 24x36 and Jake crawled in it. That might be exactly what he needs.

Jake doesn't show pain, and puts up with a lot. He really aims to please.

Thank you so much.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Heh, heh, Tammy, so I watch your area all the time on CSI (my fav) and COPS (DH's fav)!

Skye'sMom, I know that Indy often sleeps better when she is covered, so what you say makes complete sense to me too!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

We made it. Jake had the ultrasound of his abdominal area this morning.
All CLEAR!!! We were feeling pretty good when we got there, but while waiting, all the awful thoughts ran through our minds. UGH!! When The onc came in with Jake, walking along side him. The Onc just smiled and said "he is a good strong boy, and no signs of Cancer." I just cried. My hubby just got on his knees and hugged Jake. 
What an emotional roller coaster. 

Now, the Onc, just wants to do another surgery, to make wider margins, in hopes he can get all the cancer.

He reminded me to check daily for the tiniest lumps anywhere, but expecially on the limbs. I could do that, I am doing that.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*








Tammy, I'm so glad the third test also found Jake cancer free!!! Please keep us updated on how he's doing and how he does when he has the margin widened!!!






















JAKE


----------



## kshort

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh my gosh - you must be so relieved, Tammy!!! That's such good news. Give Jakie a big hug and he really should get some REAL ice cream tonight! Jake told me he wants Blue Bunny Chunky Chocolate Chip!


----------



## Skye'sMom

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yahooooo... Oh Tammy I am so happy for you guys and Jake....


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

a definite celebration is in order -- woo hoo!!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you everyone!

It is a time for celebration for sure. My hubby is off tomorrow, and he is taking Jake out for a "father and son" day. They both need that time.

It has been such a trying time. I have had many people ask me why I would go through all these tests. If the cancer had spread, just let him be, why do I need to know. Huh? I just don't think those people even deserved an answer. Jake is my family, what ever it takes, as long as he is comfortable.
Then I had a close family member ask why I couldn't "fix" Jake, but I could fix all the feral cats and stray dogs that cross my path. That comment hurt, as I explained, this was cancer, it can't be "fixed" like a wound or broken leg, etc. 

I do think Jake beat the odds, due to what the Onc said. He was blessed somehow.

I think I might need glasses after doing all this reading on the computer though. My eyes haven't hurt as bad as they have this last couple of weeks.
Then when my laptop died, my wonderful hubby bought me a new computer, with a much larger screen, so when I go to get on his computer, I can't see the dang thing. I think I got spoiled. By the way, my laptop will be ready for us to pick up tomorrow, and I didn't lose any of my bookmarks or notes.

I put the small soft crate in the living room, and showed Jake how to get in. He hasn't used it yet, but he has been fine today. I will let you know if that works when and if he does the hiding thing again.


I will let you all know how his surgery goes next week.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy, just a thought. We all know how sharp Jake is, do you think it is possible he was picking up vibes from you and was scared there was something really bad wrong. He did know what, but he was picking up something when you looked at him, so he thought it was him... Does that make any sense to you, it is poorly worded. Just not sure how to say what I want to say.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Val,

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean when he tries to hide? I am sure he is picking up vibes, knowing I am worried about him. I was never that worried until we found out his Tumor was malignant, and the Oncologist said it normally would of spread. Found out my boy isn't normal. At least the cancer wasn't found in any of the places we tested for. 
Maybe now that I check his body all over, he is wondering what the fuss is all about? You know, he has gotten where he doesn't want me brushing him anymore. I wonder why. I know when my passed seniors would age, they didn't like the grooming anymore, but Jake is only 9, I wouldn't of thought he would be there yet. But he hates being brushed now, and wines and walks away. He also is starting to dislike his nails trimmed. That isn't his normal behavior either. 
Come to think of it he has had a lot of behavioral changes recently. I just keep thinking it all started when Princess passed, but now I don't know.


----------



## Barb E

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy, on he grooming, revert to when he was a puppy in training. A little grooming or nail trimming and treats. 

What I was trying to say is that you are projecting your concerns and Jake is picking that up, so he is feeling like it is him that is upsetting you. So he will just go an hide.

Also try to sped a little more time grooming and checking the other dogs so Jake isn't feeling singled out.

I hope Jake and his day have a great day today.

Val


----------



## Jazzstorm

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: Barb E.


 <span style="color: #3333FF"><Stealing the smilies!>







</span>


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Val, 
Ok, I thought that is what you meant. I certainly don't want Jake thinking he is upsetting me. I am not sure if that is what is going through his mind, since he has tried to hide, when I am not in the room, but that could be part of it.

I understand about reverting back to puppy training with the grooming. Except, he came to us at 8 months and we just never had a problem with him. He has always been so trusting of us, we could do absolutely anything with him, and he just takes it. But, he loves food and treats, so I will start offering the treats while grooming, and that might help.
Jake is going to be really, really spoiled, not like he isn't already. Ice cream when he goes to hide, and plenty of treats while being groomed, outings with dad, Aw, he deserves it all.

Thanks for the advice, I really want to keep him happy and healthy, and just want his old behavior back.


----------



## ThreeDogs

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*








Awesome news!!!!! I am so thrilled for you. What a relief.

When Cyrus was sick it was awful. He looked terrible and every time I looked at him I got stressed and teary eyed. He did start to avoid me and I know he tensed up when he saw me....I felt horrible about it but I was just so worried I couldn't help it.

As he started to get better I started to relax, and once I started to relax he did as well. It's amazing how we can stress our dogs out.

Jake will get back to his old self, you have all been through a difficult time.

The ice cream is a great start!!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy the best thing is Jake is there to spoil. Just try to be a bit happier or even silly around him and see if he picks up that everything is OK. Maybe break the grooming and body inspection down to a couple times a day instead of one LONG session and a few yummy treats.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Just an update. Jake was scheduled for surgery tomorrow, but that has been canceled. Since last night he has been acting very depressed, and he doesn't seem to be lifting his head up much. It all started last night when he walked out of his crate, we noticed he was walking with his head down. I looked him over and don't see any swelling, and when I handle his neck and back, he doesn't seem to be in any pain. 

He is the same today. He also isn't overly excited about eating. He is eating, he loves to eat. But, he just lies with his head down while we are preparing his food, then we call him over to eat. He just isn't acting normal. My husband got him a new Tennis ball to play with, which is his favorite, he didn't want that either.

The big thing I am worried about is him not raising his head up, and not excited to eat.

So, he is going to the vet tomorrow. We will see.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

OH Tammy, I hope it is not serious for Jake and you guys. Need to send out those good vibes again. 

Hey guys, Jake needs us again. 

Val


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Ohhhhhh...maybe his lymph nodes are swollen? I know when mine do that it is really uncomfortable. Wait, do dogs have lymph nodes where we do? Maybe never mind. I was just trying to say that I hope he is okay and please keep us posted.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh, Tammy. I'm sorry. I hope the vet can figure out what's going on and give Jake something that will help. Big hugs to Jake.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

I am sorry to hear he is not feeling well. What medications is he taking? Is is possible it is a reaction to one of the new supplements?


----------



## NCSFK9

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Hugs to you & your family (especially Jake) right now. He could be feeling this way because he's feeling that you are worried sick about him. I know it's hard, maybe just try not to show *him *how worried you are.

Paws crossed & prayers being said for Mr. Jake! Give Jake some extra hugs & pets from all of us!


----------



## GSDLoverII

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Good thoughts and prayers going out to you and Jake.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

We will be leaving shortly for his appt. I will let you all know when we get back, what we find out.

I don't think Jake is reacting to me. I have actually been fine around him. I also haven't fussed over him the last couple of days, In fact I groomed all the dogs but him 2 days ago, and I think he was pleased by that. 
I have noticed he doesn't seem to like the loud noises and craziness of the other dogs. Maybe that is just old age, and he prefers quiet now?

I was thinking the Lymph nodes were swollen. I was checking, and I thought they were, my husband doesn't think so, I might just be paranoid, yet my husband keeps asking me what is wrong with his boy, it just makes me cry, because I don't know.

He is the same today. He seems to be having a difficult time moving his neck side to side too. Instead of turning his neck, he turns his whole body. His eyes look sunken in and depressed.

He started all his supplements almost 2 weeks ago, and hasn't had any reactions, so I wouldn't think that would be it. He isn't on any medications.

I did quit giving him the Flax and Cottage cheese, because his ear infections/allergies, were flaring up every time I gave him the flax.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE......
> 
> I did quit giving him the Flax and Cottage cheese, because his ear infections/allergies, were flaring up every time I gave him the flax.


That sucks. Is that true even with the flax alone without the cottage cheese?

I wonder if this is related to the hiding behaviour?

Was his neck checked out real carefully?

Hope the vet finds something *easy* to fix


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

OK, we are back. The vet checked him all over, just physically though. He agrees the lymph nodes in the neck are a little swollen. He thinks he got bit by something. I asked him about his cough again, yeh, he still has it. It isn't often, it is there, more like a gag. I even asked the Oncologist, they both said it will go away in time. Why do I find that odd? I just have this feeling it is something more. His throat is sore. 
He said the Lymph nodes could also be swollen from an allergy. He has many allergies, but he has always only been affected with ear infections, never itching, biting, scratching, or swelling. He has very sensitive ears.

So, I guess I just have to wait and see how he is tomorrow. 

Lisa, I don't know. I just assumed it was the flax because he has had cottage cheese before, without a problem. But now that you mention it, I think his food has flax in it, and his prior food. Maybe I better go research that further with his ingredients. Maybe the ear infection was from something else and not the flax and cottage cheese. 

Knowing my luck I probably took him off of it for no reason. Jake is allergic to many things, including house dust, and humans. Yup my boy is allergic to me.

He hasn't tried to hide since the last time I mentioned it. I have the soft crate in the living room still, he hasn't used it. 
He was doing really good a few days ago, but the last 2 days, he is not happy at all.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE I asked him about his cough again, yeh, he still has it. It isn't often, it is there, more like a gag. I even asked the Oncologist, they both said it will go away in time. Why do I find that odd? I just have this feeling it is something more. His throat is sore.


Chama has that cough too. I had her lungs x-rayed and it showed some scarring on her lungs. The vet recommended some sort of broncho-dilator. I just got her some Tibetan herbs called "Lung Support." I will let you know if they work. 

You could give him raw honey for his throat. They like the taste. Slippery elm is good too. As for the lymph nodes--to be so swollen that they affect his movement...I would be suspicious about what's going on there. That's a high level immune response. 

i will say this: with holistic medicine, the patient often gets worse before they get better. So it is possible that his body IS reacting to all the new supplements but trying to push toxins out and that is why he's feeling poorly. That's just something to think about because it obviously could be a lot of things.

Basu had a very similar immune system to Jake. He was actually allergic to animal dander! 

Hang in there, Tammy. I know how hard and frustrating and painful this is!


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

LOL, Indy is also allergic to me....and to cats.....

Tammy, with the new supplements, are any of them herbs? I can't remember now. For example, mine are allergic to Milk Thistle, the premier liver supplement, and also dandelion, which is also for the liver. I'm as allergic as they are, so I often try their supplements first to see what kind of reaction.

On the flip side, maybe this is a major detox reaction from all the new stuff? too much too quick -- might give him an infection if his system can't clear out the residues quick enough. This happened to me once when I first started a really powerful herb. I was so sick......who woulda thought I'd get so sick to get better.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: TMARIE I asked him about his cough again, yeh, he still has it. It isn't often, it is there, more like a gag. I even asked the Oncologist, they both said it will go away in time. Why do I find that odd? I just have this feeling it is something more. His throat is sore.
> 
> 
> 
> Chama has that cough too. I had her lungs x-rayed and it showed some scarring on her lungs. The vet recommended some sort of broncho-dilator. I just got her some Tibetan herbs called "Lung Support." I will let you know if they work.
> 
> You could give him raw honey for his throat. They like the taste. Slippery elm is good too. *As for the lymph nodes--to be so swollen that they affect his movement...I would be suspicious about what's going on there. That's a high level immune response. *
> 
> *i will say this: with holistic medicine, the patient often gets worse before they get better. So it is possible that his body IS reacting to all the new supplements but trying to push toxins out and that is why he's feeling poorly. That's just something to think about because it obviously could be a lot of things.*
> 
> Basu had a very similar immune system to Jake. He was actually allergic to animal dander!
> 
> Hang in there, Tammy. I know how hard and frustrating and painful this is!
Click to expand...

Great info. I never really thought about things getting worse before they get better. I just want my boy back, the way he was. I just hope he could move his neck better tomorrow, and he improves. I feel like a failure, and there is something I am missing.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy, have you ever considered chiropractic? With the tumor right at the spot near the jaw line, and that being so interconnected with the neck, it would be a supportive measure to keep the nerves working at their optimum and the also help things like lymph drainage, etc.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Lisa, no, I never did consider it, but I am now thinking I might. 

He has improved in the last hour. His energy is up and acting a little happier, also moving his neck a little more. I am seeing improvement.

I will get through this hurdle, then after all this is done, I will check into seeing a chiropractor. I know a few people here that have had great results from one here locally.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

I'm glad to hear that you have one locally. I took the mutts today and they are wiped out. Max just loves going to the chiro -- I think his neck is sore most of the time. 

I'm glad that he is feeling better - can you attribute it to anything specifically? Any idea what's going on with the neck?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Lisa,

No, I just can't figure out what happen and why his neck is the way it is, or his behavior. I guess that is why I feel like I am failing him. I just can't figure this one out.

He is a little better, but just a little. He is still acting like the neck hurts and doesn't move it as easily as before. He is eating fine, but still acts very depressed. He seems to be more depressed since he had the surgery, and only getting worse. My hubby and I have been doing everything we can to keep to routine, act normal, not do anything different. We have been trying to perk him up, playing with him, walks, and such, but he just isn't up to it. I just wish he could tell me, because I just don't know.Yesterday I got on the floor to love him up and coax him to play. He trotted to me just a little, then walked away from me, like he didn't want to be bothered. Talk about hurting my feelings, dang.
He did beg for some pie though when I was having a slice, which was good, because he normally does, but 2 days ago, he didn't.

With the supplements I am giving him, the Thorne Antioxidant has the only herbs he is getting, but I don't think he is reacting to that. 

Ruth, 
The Oncologist told me that Jake's lungs showed scarring also, due to age so I am wondering if something for lung support might help him too? Let me know if that product you mentioned helps.
I noticed he coughs more when he walks fast or trots. He didn't do that until the surgery.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Have you tried giving Jake pain meds? It could be he got injured during the actual dental procedure - it happens - I guess because they have to adjust the head/neck for doing certain procedures. If he were my dog, I'd ask the vet to put him on Tramadol for a few days to see if there is any change in his behavior.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thanks Gayle. 
Do you think that could be the case, even though he just started with the neck problem last week? I am going to call the vet right now, and see if he will, then I can have my hubby go pick it up for me.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy I had a horse that had scarring in her lungs when I bought her as a 3 year old, she had two bouts of pneumonia. I can't remember what the name of the drug was that she got to help her breathing. If she didn't get her Meds she would cough. Before I started the Meds she had a mucle ridge that was about 1/2" thick near the end of her rib cage. After being on the Meds that went away. Also she didn't want to Canter, because it was harder for her to breath but she would walk and trot for hours.

So if Jake is having problems I would look at something to help support the lungs.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*








I don't know. I can't recall how long it took me to figure out something was wrong with Honey (my guess is that the dental aggravated her arthritis/spondylosis). She's on Tramadol twice a day and Metacam once a day and seems comfortable.

Kelly also came out of his extration walking stifly for a few days, but he's okay now - but he was taking Tramadol twice a day for arthritis prior to the surgery. 

Not sure how Ringer got his bad neck and back discs or how long it took me to figure out there was a real problem and not just a temporary "gimp in his get-along". Of course, he has many major issues including a losing battle with "old age atrophy" but Tramadol three times a day and Metacam once a day are keeping him comfortable enough to continue to go out and run around and play ball with Bruiser.

But I've learned that often pain can change the behavior patterns of a dog.

Give Jake an extra hug from me and the Hooligans!!!

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

You guys are great. I just don't know what I would do without you all. The vet is going to prescribe something for the pain. So hopefully that will help. Perhaps Jake has been in pain all this time but hadn't shown it until now. He is such a big brave boy.

Val thanks for the info on lung support. Now I am off to go do some research on that, and see what I can do for his lungs.

Seems like all I've done for the last month is read, research, and spend money, and research some more. Ugh, we will get there, with all your help, again, thanks all.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

When I get a chance I will look what it was we gave to the horse.


----------



## GSDLoverII

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Casey received hot laser therapy for her arthritis in her hip and she is doing great now. Most vets have cold lasers but my vet is only one of a few in s.Fla that has a hot laser. The machine costs about $40K
He even did it to me for free on my "tennis elbow" from walking 3 gsd's and I walked out of there pain free. It's better than acupuncture before it's immediate relief, and it last about 2 weeks. 
The cost is $95 for 3 different areas on her body and it's 10 minutes per spot.
Casey loves it so much she falls asleep when the therapist is doing it, and afterward showers the lady with kisses.

Oh ya, You can do it on the neck area as well.

Here is my Vet's link incase you want more info on it. 
Good Luck!

http://www.heronlakesvet.com/1066731.html


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: GSD Lover IICasey received hot laser therapy for her arthritis in her hip and she is doing great now. Most vets have cold lasers but my vet is only one of a few in s.Fla that has a hot laser. The machine costs about $40K
> He even did it to me for free on my "tennis elbow" from walking 3 gsd's and I walked out of there pain free. It's better than acupuncture before it's immediate relief, and it last about 2 weeks.
> The cost is $95 for 3 different areas on her body and it's 10 minutes per spot.
> Casey loves it so much she falls asleep when the therapist is doing it, and afterward showers the lady with kisses.
> 
> Oh ya, You can do it on the neck area as well.
> 
> Here is my Vet's link incase you want more info on it.
> Good Luck!
> 
> http://www.heronlakesvet.com/1066731.html


WOW!! I learn something new everyday. I never heard of Hot Laser Therapy. I am definitely going to look into that too.

Thanks so much for posting that.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy here is the Medication I gave to my horse.

Aminophylline: is used to prevent and treat wheezing, shortness of breath, and difficulty breathing caused by asthma, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, and other lung diseases. It relaxes and opens air passages in the lungs, making it easier to breathe.

This is a human medication. The Vet would order BIG bottles of it, 1000 pills 200 mg. Pixie probably weighed 1100 lbs., she got 4 to 6 pills two times a day, the higher dosage was in summer when she would have more problems. I know this isn't a herbal thing, just giving information on what helped my horse. Not sure if you can use on dogs, I would ask a vet. Just did a little checking and sometimes they will give this to sever kennel cough along with the antibioitics.

links: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a601015.html

http://www.chathamanimalrescue.org/kennelcough.shtml


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thanks Val. I have been searching all morning and found a few different things. This is good information to have. When I spoke with the vet this morning, I told him I will bring Jake back in on Saturday. So we will see if there is any improvement with the neck, with the pain killers he gets tonight, and I will ask him about the lungs, and the Aminophylline, and see what he suggests.

All of this info you guys are giving me is great. It at least gives me a chance to research it all before I talk to the doc, then I know what I want and don't want to try.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIELisa,
> 
> No, I just can't figure out what happen and why his neck is the way it is, or his behavior. I guess that is why I feel like I am failing him. I just can't figure this one out.........


My best guess? Any time you're put under anesthesia, the muscles are relaxed in a way they usually aren't, and the body can be positioned in ways that aren't natural for that particularly body (since you are being placed by someone else). Surgery near the jaw probably has its own implications for the neck.

This is what happened to me during a knee surgery. I woke up with my neck completely out of wack, only I didn't know what it was. I didn't believe in chiros back then -- I spent 10 years like that, and it did extensive damage to my spine over that period. 

Now anytime there is any anesthesia or dental work, the next stop, for both me and/or the dogs, is the chiropractor.

From what it sounds like, maybe this is what Jake needs?????

As for the lungs, I don't know that much about them -- mullien (mullein?) is a good herb to make into a tea -- or in liquid form.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh! Yeah, positioning during surgery is so easy-because we are so supple. I had a procedure done and after the drugs wore off I thought they had broken my back! I had an Osteopathic Doctor then (LOVE them) and I told him and he stuck his fist in my back and fixed it right there. 

Also, if you have any weakening in the lungs, anesthesia recovery can be a lot longer, so that may be a factor as well. You just feel crappy.


----------



## kelso

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN. I had a procedure done and after the drugs wore off I thought they had broken my back! I had an Osteopathic Doctor then (LOVE them) and I told him and he stuck his fist in my back and fixed it right there.










Jean! I am in osteopathic medical school (3rd yr) and LOVE to hear that people 1. know what they are and 2. understand that they are docs that can stick a fist in your back and fix you!

Great to here! Now we just need osteopathic vets for our animals!







thanks for making my day!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

VERY COOL! Congrats! 

Yes, I lived in Erie and there was a whole "hive" of them! They have LECOM there now. In fact, the hospital was a DO hospital. I cannot say enough good about them. A great approach. And they had, every single one I met, great bedside manner. 

Osteopathic vets-what a great idea!!! I would like to find that happy medium between traditional and non. My one vet is very good about hands on and using all senses (he sniffs a lot of dog hiney) so that's nice. 

Sorry Tammy-I love osteopaths!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> Sorry Tammy-I love osteopaths!



Oh, don't be sorry. Every time some one posts on this thread, I learn more and more. I certainly don't mind, I love learning.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN...
> Also, if you have any weakening in the lungs, anesthesia recovery can be a lot longer, so that may be a factor as well. You just feel crappy.


ooh, excellent point. Didn't think of that.

I went to an osteopath once, and my mom also went to one. Both of them were more conventional than our conventional doctors, and they were terrible! I have to admit that I was soooooooooo looking forward to having an OD. Maybe they were just frustrated that they were stuck in the middle of HMO land........


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

So I think Jake is improving slowly. The vet put him on pain meds to help with the neck. He is moving more, and he actually greeted my hubby at the door yesterday with a toy, for the first time in weeks. Yeah!!

Still a little mopey, Energy doesn't last long. But....I haven't picked at him the last few days, trying to give him a break, hoping he will get back to normal.

Last night he was lying on his back, so I sat down on the floor and took the opportunity to rub the belly and chest. *sigh* I found several, (5) lumps on his chest. Soft, squishy movable lumps! Dime size, but more flat. If I was just petting him, I would not of noticed, they are not sticking out much. Hopefully just fatty tumors? What did I do in 4 days, what didn't I do? They were not there the last I checked, I know I would of noticed them. *sigh*


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh geez, I sure hope they are fatty tumors.

And it wasn't you Tammy. Heck, Indy is the most high maintenance dog in the world, and she gets fatty tumors, and she still got cancer. We do what we can -- they are who they are.

I'm glad that you found them though. When are you going to get them checked?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

We are going tomorrow! We already had the appt to check his neck. I wouldn't think of putting this off.

I wonder what the vet will think if I just bring a blanket and pillow, and tell him we will just move in for awhile. *sigh*

He started his hiding thing a little while ago. He wouldn't go in the soft crate. Instead he chose to stuff himself under my desk, a 2x4 foot area.
So I let him sleep. He finally moved, and this is why I could get back on the computer, I didn't want to disturb him.


----------



## ThreeDogs

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

The thoughts and prayers are continuous here for you and Jake.

I hope thing go well for you tomorrow.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Well, son of a gun. Jakey Cakey-we are all thinking of you and ALL paws are crossed for a good result here in Jeanspackistan (that's probably almost as many paws as in TammyLand)!


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE......
> He started his hiding thing a little while ago. He wouldn't go in the soft crate. Instead he chose to stuff himself under my desk, a 2x4 foot area.
> So I let him sleep. He finally moved, and this is why I could get back on the computer, I didn't want to disturb him.


That's too funny!

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you would wait to get it checked, just didn't know how soon you could get in.

I'm going to bet that they are fatty tumors -- with all the great test results that Jake has had, they have to be, right?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh Lisa, I didn't think you implied anything. I just wanted to stress I am going right away.

I am pretty sure they are fatty tumors too. I just can't see them popping up so quickly and with all the tests we have done, them to be anything else. That is my hopeful thinking anyways.

When I found the lumps last night, and had my husband feel them, he said "you need to quit looking at my dog and finding things". Well darn it, I have to stay on top of things. 

You know when you don't like to go to the doctor because he finds other things wrong with you? That is probably why Jake don't like me messing with him, I find things. He He. I am becoming the dreaded doctor, hubby is going to ban me from him soon. LOL.

Now Jake is trying to fit under the end table, I guess I should move so he can get back under this desk. It is almost dinner time, that will distract him for a bit. Funny boy.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Sounds very much like a thing a husband would say....

Our vet said that the chest area is common for fatty tumors -- there's a couple of important chinese meridians that run through there, and lipomas would signify stagnation.

Interesting, but it hasn't helped me to keep them off of Indy!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Well, I was getting ready to go feed him but wanted to update this real quick. At this very moment Jake has as much energy and happy go lucky personality that he had a month ago. 

I don't know what triggered it. My husband always calls him a gallopy horse, because of how he gallops around us when he is happy. Well, he just did the gallopy horse thingy, so I played with him a bit, which he loves to show off his heeling excercises and attention, he was so happy.

Even his eyes look brighter, and he is wagging his tail.
I don't know what came over him, but I hope he stays this way.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*










Go Jake go!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

That is funny Jean! In an odd way, that horse looks like Jake.

His vet visit Saturday was good. The lumps are fatty tumors, hooray!!

His neck seems to be back to normal, and moving it better then he was.

His energy has also picked back up. He isn't his normal self, but he is improving. He seems happier then he has been, and has even chased a pigeon in the back yard, and getting interested again in the cats! 

He also has been excited to eat again, where last week, he would eat, but wasn't all that interested. 

Maybe all his supplements are starting to help.

I am still trying to decide what to get him on for lung support, I do think he will benefit from something, because the cough is still there and he seems to get winded much easier now.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy did you talk to your Vet about the Aminophylline? I know you are trying to stay natural, but if he isn't getting the right amount of oxygen, that is really going to wear him down. 

Great news on the tumors being the wonderful Fatty Tumors. 

Val


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

For lung support, I would do a search on supplements together with COPD and then with emphysema -- just to see if anything interesing came up. I would do it, but I don't have time today.

This must be good news day! I'm glad that he is feeling better.

Are you giving fish oil?


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

My mother took Theophylline for emphysema/asthma. They recently prescribed it for Ringer's pneumonia - 200 mg - it made his heart race so fast (200 something high beats per minute) he had only one pill and the doctor at the ER took him off it after consulting with his regular vet. It took almost 24 hours for his heart rate to return to the "normal" range.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerTammy did you talk to your Vet about the Aminophylline? I know you are trying to stay natural, but if he isn't getting the right amount of oxygen, that is really going to wear him down.
> 
> Great news on the tumors being the wonderful Fatty Tumors.
> 
> Val


Yes I did. He did say that he could prescribe it to him, but was concerned about any side effects it may have on Jake, and right now we don't want to add any more stress to his body. It was more me than the vet, I am just worried about giving him anything else now. I know he would of given me a prescription for it when i asked, but I wanted to do more research on it first. 

Now with everything I have been reading, it just confuses me more. I know he needs *something*. I just don't want to make a mistake and give him something that might cause more damage then good.

He is scheduled for more blood work in 2 weeks. He is a little worried about doing another surgery now while Jake hasn't been up to par. 
That is a whole other topic, do the surgery, in hopes they get more if not all of the cancer, in the process Jake doesn't handle the surgery well, or, don't do the surgery and the cancer spreads. Really there is no guarantees, either way.
I haven't given up, I am supose to call the vet tomorrow when he gets in, so I might just get the prescription anyways and try it.

Lisa, No I am not giving him any fish oil. Should I?


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE....
> Lisa, No I am not giving him any fish oil. Should I?


Many folks use it as part of an anti-cancer program. I found that if I give fish oil, Indy's lipomas grow pretty fast. So I was curious if by chance you had started it. But then again, Indy is a counterexample to most everything.

What are they looking for when they are chekcing the bloodwork?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

The vet isn't looking for any one thing. He just suggests another full blood panel done to look at the over all picture. Since He had the neck problems (which is completely better now) having problems with the breathing, and low energy, he wants to make sure there isn't anything going on, that we are not aware of.

I must say though, he is improving. Last night he grabbed a toy and was chewing on it and lying on his back and holding it with his front feet playing. He hasn't done that since the surgery. It has been six weeks, and his recovery has been slower than expected, but he is getting there.

his breathing is a little better. My husband did pick up a prescription of 
Aminophylline (what Val suggested) last night. The vet wants him to have 300 mg a day, which I guess is a low dose, for 7-10 days, and then see how he does. I just started with that this morning.

Here is an odd question. Can fatty tumors go away or decrease in size on their own? Any experience with that? 

Also, I did start him back on the Cottage Cheese And flaxseed oil last Monday, and so far so good. maybe the ear problem was something else, because he is doing fine so far.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

I've never had luck with the lipomas going away on their own. I would love to hear from someone that has had that experience.

Maybe, with all the changes and the surgery, it is just taking him awhile to adjust and clean out his system. It definitely sounds like he is continuing to improve -- hope it continues









Keeping my fingers crossed for the flax! With Max, he can't take the cottage cheese, and I only give him a bit of flax.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Things are sounding like there is improvement which is really good. I hope the Aminophilline works as well for Jake as it did my horse, she had no side effects and the difference in her breathing was very noticable, not right away but after being on it for awhile if my memory serves me right.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Jake is doing really well. Just want to thank all of you for the wonderful suggestions and support you have all given me through this ordeal.

I just posted some pics of him in the pic forum, if you want to see him smiling.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=522250&page=0#Post522250


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh, he looks so much better than the post-surgery pic!! I'm glad to see him smiling


----------



## TMarie

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Found this lump last night. It is on the top of the right front foot, right above the toe. You can't see it without moving all the hair. Any idea what it could be?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Kramer had one of those on his eye! I called it an eye nipple. I had it removed and never did know what exactly it was. I even have a picture of it. It never came back (knock wood).


----------



## TMarie

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Ugh, hopefully it isn't anything. I don't want to worry about anything on his legs or feet. It is long and kind of pointy, I have never seen anything like that before. Yeh, that is a good description Jean, looks like a nipple.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Do you want me to post Kramer's? It is gross. 


Hope you can see it well enough-it was dark like his eyelid area:


----------



## TMarie

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Yes, you can post it here.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

OH wow Jean, that looks just like the one on Jakes foot.

I will be taking him in and see what the vet says. With the cancer, I don't want to take a chance with it.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

It does! I think they called it a wart. I can't remember because I had that other name for it! 

They said at first wait and see if it grows or causes discomfort. I scheduled the surgery so that way if it didn't do anything I could cancel, but in the mean time he started digging at it with his paw and it would bleed, right before surgery, so it worked out well. 

Hope it's very simple with the Jake too.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

So far Jake hasn't messed with it, it does look similar to a wart, so hopefully something simple. Thanks.


----------



## M&J

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

When my dogs get warts (and the vet verified they were warts or cysts) I have 100% success with http://www.vetskin.com
You only need a couple applications. The wart (and any skin it comes in conact with) turns black and falls off. 
Lilly had something similar to Jake and Kramer's wart recently. Within days it was gone thanks to Vetskin.
Best of luck!


----------



## LisaT

*Re: New lump on Jake w/picture, any idea?*

Okay, I now I"m feeling like I'm the type of person that has to have the same thing that everyone else has, but Max might get both of those.......isn't there some psycological disorder that describes some like that?

Tammy, the one on the foot -- Max gets things that look like this a lot. They start is a little raised flesh colored lump, and then grow in wierd ways, ultimately they look like your warty thing, and then they often look like a hanging dark thing towards the end. If it opens up, there is cyst type stuff in it, but it bleeds ALOT.

As for the eye thing, Jean, is it attached to the lid or the cornea? If it's the cornea, that's similar to Max -- and he needed cyclosporine. I got his corneal growths eliminated, but it takes some managing to keep them away.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Jake is continuing to improve everyday. His breathing is back to normal. Hooray!!







An occasional cough type gag, but very, very rare. He is up and playing more. He was on the Aminophylline for only 10 days. Last Saturday was the last day he took it. So far no complications with him being off of it.

The vet said the lump on the foot is most likely a wart. We decided to leave it alone and just keep an eye on it. So far, Jake has not messed with it. 

He is handling the Flaxseed and Cottage cheese very well, and continues to take all his suppliments with ease.

When we originally found the lumps on his chest, I marked them with a Black Magic marker, so I can find them easily when I showed them to the vet. ( He He, yeah, I colored my dog, LOL ) There were five, but now I can only find four.







I am sure it is there somewhere, but at least I haven't discovered more.

He has only tried to hide once since the last time I posted. I put a treat jar on my desk, with very special yummy treats just for him. When he went to hide, I pointed to the jar, he came over and sat with his head on the desk. So he got a treat. He didn't ask for more than one, seemed satisfied, then curled up on the couch. Since that time. he walks over to the jar once a day, and gets a treat. I noticed when he does, he first acts a little uncomfortable, then heads toward the back of the couch, he gives a huge sigh, like he remembers, then goes to the jar. Maybe the treat makes him feel better.









Anyways, wanted to update everyone, that things are continuing to improve for Jake.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*








Oh, Tammy - I'm so thrilled to hear that Jake is continuing to improve!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

This is GREAT news! I hope Jake continues to feel better. Wow, what a relief!


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy that is great news. I am glad the Aminophylline worked, when you posted earlier it was the only thing I could think of that I had seen good results for in an animal.

I think dogs get sensitive to changes in the daily routine and what they have to endue when they are ill. I always make a point of treats after any docotring (so to speak), ear cleaning, checking teeth, trimming nails. I do body checks in conjunction with a nice massage so they don't really know I am give them the once over.

Go ahead and spoil Jake. I think that when dogs reach a certain age they have earned the right to start being spoiled.

Val


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Wow, great news Tammy. 

Great idea about the treat jar -- I can just hear that sigh right now . how very expressive.

I agree with Val -- he's earned the spoiling.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thanks you guys. Jake is doing wonderful.

OT, I just had an interesting conversation. My childcare inspector was just here doing my end of year inspection. I have never met him before. We got to talking about Jake. He asked me what supplements I was giving Jake, when I told him, he said they won't work or help, so out of curiosity I asked why, and what does he know. He use to be in Pharmaceutical Sales. He quit because he prefers the holistic ways and got tired of all the toxins in traditional medicine. 

He was telling me about a product that can benefit any dog with cancer. (I don't know the name, he is going to email me all the info on it tonight)
Talking to him, he seemed very knowledgeable about all the different types of cancer and he also believes in Budwigs Flaxseed and cottage cheese protocol.

More to come when I get this mysterious information I will post it.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

That's pretty interesting -- when you said he used to be in Pharm Sales, I thought the conversation was going to go in a different direction.

I believe that everything that you put Jake on has some sort of research behind it, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I do think that some things are more powerful than others. For example, IP6 for some cancers probably is much more effective than some things, and selenium in cancers that don't evolve through the p53 genetic whatever would probably be useless.

I"ll be interested to see what he emails you. I'm also iterested in whether he sells it? Or is that being too cynical?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Not at all Lisa. I am very interested too. I am not worried, I just found it to be a very interesting discussion.
I can't wait to get my email to see what he is talking about.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Well I haven't had a chance to look at all the info I received about these products forwarded to me, but here is a link.

https://www.mannatech.com/Shopping/Catalog.aspx

I received several emails with articles about the products also, but I haven't been able to figure out how to post them here. ( just can't figure out all this computer stuff, that is what hubby is for).

I did find out he is a rep for this stuff, but doesn't actively sale it. He had a woman call me, because she was using some of the products for one of her dogs, but each time she has called, I haven't been able to get to the phone. I have her number so I will call her tomorrow and see what she has to say.

We have another Vet appt, this Sunday. Jake has another lump, this time inside the ear, close to the base. The size of a Pea. I was thinking a Hematoma, common with ear infections, which he gets a lot, but he hasn't been shaking his head. It is red and firm. I think he cut it scratching, maybe, because it was bleeding some, and looks like it is scratched or possibly split open a little. Not sure, so we will see what the doc says.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Okay, he's a mannatech sales person....

I tried one of their premiere products once (Ambrotose). I have a vet that says she has seen some great responses in some animals. It didn't do anything for Indy. They are based on providing the body "good sugars" that are deficient in the body. If the product is sugar based, I would be careful in a cancer dog, unless I saw some VERY strong evidence otherwise. I never tried it on Max because sugar feeds his yeast problems. I think I even signed up to buy products from them -- at the time I was looking, i couldn't find a rep. I bought from them once, maybe 6 years ago. I think just awhile ago I tossed the rest of the jar. I'll have to look and make sure I don't have it any more. Maybe it expired?

Let us know what you find out. I don't think the products are a scam, but I'm not sure it's known exactly what conditions they really are good for. The vet that recommended the product is one that I trust.

I'm concerned/curiuos about the increase in wierd lumps. It makes me wonder if either the new regimine of stuff is causing icky stuff in the body to move outwards, or if something isn't working right, or if there is stagnation.

Let us know what the vet says.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

LOL Lisa, I kind of figured you would of known about their products. I am not really interested in changing anything with Jake.

I am concerned also about the lumps showing up so suddenly. I have to clean Jakes ears quite often because he is always battling infections. He has so many allergies, one major one is dust, something I just can't prevent no matter how much I clean, I live in Vegas, UGH!

This new lump showed up very quickly. Other than the lump, he is still doing well.

I will let you know Sunday after his appt.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Do his ears need cleaning more frequently or less or the same recently? More gunk in them, less, or the same?


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

They need more cleaning, more frequently, and they have more gunk. 

The vet normally gives him Otomax, because he gets yeast infections. The last time he put him on Baytril also.

But lately, He seems to be getting them more often.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Okay, I gotta think it's one of the supplements. Max is *real* sensitive to any supplements that I give him.

The easiest think to look for is probably any yeast or brewer's yeast in any of the supplements.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

Just a word about Otomax. IMHO not the best ear treatment for extended or multiple treatments. Extended use has caused the ear drum to rupture in some dogs.

I use a product called Zymox that is enzyme based I get the one with the Hydrocortisone in it because Lakota's ears get so red and sore so fast when his decide to flare up. This works so much better for him and I know Angela W uses it because I started it after a post of hers a few years ago. The first time I used it I did the 14 day treatment and was amazed at the junk that he shook out of his ears, yuk.

Val


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Lisa,

I checked all his supplements before I ordered them, I double checked them again yesterday. None of them have any type of yeast. He is highly allergic to yeast, so I always check the ingredients in everything I give him. 
I am thinking it is just environmental I just don't understand why they are always yeast infections with an environmental allergy. We have had a lot of gusty winds here this last month, so I am sure it is causing havoc with his ears. He is allergic to many types of trees, all dust, lots of grasses, humans, cats, ants, just to name a few. He is highly allergic to Kapok, which is used in common household linens, pillows, furniture, stuffed toys. He is a big reason why I do so much cleaning.
Right now I think the windy days have not helped, even though he lives inside.

Val, I remember reading a thread about Zymox, I will get that ordered. I do need to try something else for him, so I can get back control. I think he has also built up a resistance to the otomax. He hasn't had any major ear infections for awhile until this last month, and it has been a constant battle.

He has a new problem this morning. He was dragging his right rear foot. I was packing my hubby's lunch when Jake started to walk toward the kitchen, and he stumbled. When I looked at him he was standing on the top of the foot. I picked it up and massaged it and put it back correctly, but it flipped back. He is fine now, but I can tell he is dragging the toes on that foot just a little.

My boy is falling apart.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

dragging foot -- chiropractor - may be related to unresolved neck issues traveling down the spine?

Is he getting vitamin C in the diet?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Awww, Tammy, I am sorry. I don't really have a thought-Lisa makes sense. Maybe check for any infection? 

XOXO to Jake, please take care. Let's hope tomorrow will be a better day!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thanks Jean.

We missed Jake's Appt, (had an emergency) he is rescheduled for next Sunday.
I give him 500mg of Vit C daily.

Ok Lisa, I have some questions about the Chiro. I scheduled an appt for the 9th, that is the soonest she could get me in.

He hasn't had any more problems with dragging the foot. I am pretty sure when I mention it to the vet, he would probably mention arthritis, (don't they always say that?). I know Jake has arthritis and Hip dysplasia in both hips. 

Do I need to have exrays done of his spine, neck, or any testing done before he sees the Chiro? I want to make sure I do everything in the right order, to be sure I don't cause more injury because I didn't take the necessary steps.

The lump in the ear so far has not changed.

Now for how bad of a Mommy I have been. I need a major kick in the butte. I think I discovered the problem with so many ear infections.
As I mentioned before I always check everything before I give it to Jake, because of the many allergies he has. Well *sigh* I decided to look at his allergy list and make sure I haven't missed anything. OMG! I am sooooo BAAAAD! Jake is also Highly allergic to MILK. I have been giving him cottage cheese every day. He also gets some cheese for special treats sometimes. Oh, and ICE CREAM! I just can't believe I missed this. I know all the meats, grasses, trees, household items that he is allergic too. Yet, all this time I have been causing his allergies to be worse. I made this discovery Saturday night. 

Jake knows that the word *allergic* means no to him. It is such a sad word. His special treats that I have in his treat jar on my desk, have milk in them. He went to the jar and I told him "you're allergic". Poor boy, just turned with a droopy look on his face and walked away.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh poor Jake!!!!!!

I have been catching up on his progress adn it sounds like he is really giving you a run for your money! At least you were able to pinpoint the ear infections and the cottage cheese! You are not a bad mommy, just a lot on your mind with a whole bunch to remember.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Maybe cut out the cottage cheese and monitor the treats and the ice cream. 

I maybe really bad, BUT if I could effectivly treat the yeast infection, then there is something to be said for keeping a dog happy, especially if my dog was battling some thing like cancer. If you take away all the joy, what does the dog have to fight to stay alive for. I hate yeast infections in the ears, but I would rather treat the infection then take away all the joy from a dog.

I know I am strange and look at things differently than some people, but the joy and happiness in my dogs and their will to live is so important to me. 

Val


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

OMG, that's so funny about the cottage cheese -- only because I've done things like that too. With Max, even things like prunes and berries, because of the high sugar content, will trigger his ear infections (and he loves those things....geez, give him a prune and he's in seventh heaven....I tried them when he had anal gland problems).

I'm excited about the chiro, hope you aren't too nervous . Is this chiro a vet, or one that works on humans?

You will get mixed responses about the xrays. xrays are always better, particularly if you suspect a serious problem, but niether of mine had xrays when they started getting worked on, and niether was I, thinking back on it now. I honestly think that jakes's neck got messed up during surgery and just needs tweaking. Once the neck is out, nothing can function correctly. And the nerves to where his tumor was might also be slightly compromised.

If it's a chiro that works on people, they are generally a bit better at palpating the joints and will work less off of xrays -- at least that's my experience. thinking about it now, our homeopathic vet that Indy has seen twice in the last 6-ish years and max has only seen once, would have adjusted him without xrays....I think it's pretty common, UNLESS you've got a dog in a lot of pain and severe symptoms.

Again, you'll get different responses on the xrays....


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Oh Val, 
You don't know how good that made me feel. I agree, his happiness is very important, especially in his senior years.
Yeah, no more cottage cheese, and he will be monitored with the treats and ice cream. At least now I know. I can't take everything away from him.

Lisa,
I am very nervous about the Chiro. I have never used one either, so I don't know what to expect. She is a human Chiro, but many people with our local dog club have used her, and have been happy with the results.
In all honesty, I don't think he has anything too serious going on, except for the neck getting messed up during surgery also.

So, after the chiro, and finding out what the new lump is in the ear, getting the ear infections taken care of, we will continue what we are doing, minus the cottage cheese.

Once again,
Thanks Guys, couldn't do all this without you all.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerMaybe cut out the cottage cheese and monitor the treats and the ice cream.
> 
> I maybe really bad, BUT if I could effectivly treat the yeast infection, then there is something to be said for keeping a dog happy, especially if my dog was battling some thing like cancer. If you take away all the joy, what does the dog have to fight to stay alive for. I hate yeast infections in the ears, but I would rather treat the infection then take away all the joy from a dog.
> 
> I know I am strange and look at things differently than some people, but the joy and happiness in my dogs and their will to live is so important to me.
> 
> Val


If the allergy is strong enough to cause an infection in his ear (as an outward expression) there is probably alot going on inside the body too, especially if it escalates the other allergies! I would cut out all products that contain milk! If you have to find some non dairy substitues, but stay away from soy! You can find him something yummy (or better yet make him something yummy!) that won't put his system in a tailspin! I know I feel crumby and tired when my allergies flair up and I have had things tha "itch" and it is enough to drive you crazy!!!!! No good for the overall well being of the dog. I bet if you put another treat in his special treat jar, he won't know the difference!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: GS Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerMaybe cut out the cottage cheese and monitor the treats and the ice cream.
> 
> I maybe really bad, BUT if I could effectivly treat the yeast infection, then there is something to be said for keeping a dog happy, especially if my dog was battling some thing like cancer. If you take away all the joy, what does the dog have to fight to stay alive for. I hate yeast infections in the ears, but I would rather treat the infection then take away all the joy from a dog.
> 
> I know I am strange and look at things differently than some people, but the joy and happiness in my dogs and their will to live is so important to me.
> 
> Val
> 
> 
> 
> *If the allergy is strong enough to cause an infection in his ear (as an outward expression) there is probably alot going on inside the body too, especially if it escalates the other allergies! * I would cut out all products that contain milk! If you have to find some non dairy substitues, but stay away from soy! You can find him something yummy (or better yet make him something yummy!) that won't put his system in a tailspin! I know I feel crumby and tired when my allergies flair up and I have had things tha "itch" and it is enough to drive you crazy!!!!! No good for the overall well being of the dog. I bet if you put another treat in his special treat jar, he won't know the difference!
Click to expand...

GS Mom,
You make a good point. I have been researching things I can make for him. I won't substitute with Soy, that is one of his major allergies too.







. 
He may have a lot going on inside that I am not even aware of, especially with the new lumps surfacing. As long as the treats are in his jar, he will know it is something special just for him. I will find something I could make, that would keep for a few days at least.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy what are Jake's list of food problems. Maybe, we could help you come up with some home-made yummies.

Some type of doggie cookie that you you put in his cookie jar.

I thought the ears got a lot worse once you started the cottage cheese.


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yes, they did get worse since the Cottage Cheese. The treat jar was started after the cottage cheese, but his treats have the milk in it too, probably not as much as the cottage cheese though.

I am all for making him something. I just want to be able to keep it in his jar, since that seems to really perk him up.

Here is a list of his food allergies:

Turkey
Chicken
Pork
Lamb
Duck
Soy Beans
Brown Rice
Sweat Potato
Yeast
Milk
Barley

If you have any simple little recipes, please share.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Let me look around or I will see if I can come up with something.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Beef and fish look okay? Maybe there is a pure beef treat somewhere that you don't have to make?

With Indy and Max, I use cashews and almonds, and I often only give half at a time (thank goodness for Costco). If they have too many, then they come out undigested, BUT, it's not the treat, it's the act of giving the treat.

Jake's allergy list looks a lot like Indy's, we haven't tested Max, but I think he would be a close runner-up. What challenges they are!!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yes, Beef and fish are ok. I had a difficult time finding a treat in the stores that don't have any yeast in them.

I get many weird looks from people at the pet stores when I am reading the ingredients on everything, then saying, "no he can't have that either". UGH! It is a challenge!

Cashews and almonds as treats, huh, that is interesting! My hubby would see those, and there would never be any left for Jake. LOL.

You are correct, it is the act of giving them and not the treat itself. That is why I like having the treat jar on my desk. It means something extra special.

I have a jar on the Kitchen counter, close to the back door, with just some kibble. All the dogs get excited to just get a piece of kibble when they come in from outside. So Jakes *special* jar, sets him apart from the rest. Which I think he needs.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

LOL, I know what you mean about the label reading, which is why I gave up on dog treats completely -- I can't find any, though occasionally I can find a 100% beef liver, and they both can tolerate beef in small amounts. 

The cashews might be a problem because most have peanut oil on them, and my husband gets to those too.......so the plain almonds, and that way I can snack too. Oddly enough, I found the Costco ones taste and look much better than the ones at Sam's. I tried to think of all sorts of clever things, including cereals (toasted oats???). Although I don't feed them wheat, Mom always uses stick pretzels (or saltines), and, much to my dismay, Dad feels like a dog can always use a potato chip or two









Wish corn weren't so adulterated nowadays -- they love popcorn too.

I love that Jake has a special jar. Isn't it funny how they notice and appreciate those things. Our chiro's wolfhound had a recent surgery (8 years old, old for a WH) and got to go to the yard through a separate door. Although she's all healed up now, she goes to her special door, and it seems to mean a lot to her to be able to do that. They can be such characters, gotta love 'em.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

I have been web searching most of the receipes have milk, chicken, turkey. I checked some of the speciality premade treats, most would not work for Jake.... But.....

This site has some treats that might work.
http://www.sojos.com/treats.html

If I had time I would try some stuff in the kitchen..


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy, there is a receipe for meatloaf on the main part of this website.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/recipes/meatloaf/

This is along the lines of what I was thinking only bake in small dabs. If there is something in there he can't have take it out and substitute something he can.

Val


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

I know someone on IMOM has a dog going through an allergy trial (and he's hugely epileptic among other things-like a genetic nightmare-poor thing) and she makes them oatmeal treats. I think...they may just be oats and water? If that sounds like anything you would be remotely interested in (he does well on them) let me know and I'll ask her how she makes them. 

And I'll also ask about gas-because we were at the Budweiser Clydesdale farm in NH when I was young and there was a horse laying on his side that had THE loudest gas I have ever heard. Even the tour guide was laughing-he just kept ripping-musically. Even the horse in the stall next to him was looking, like...dude! I don't know if it was the oats they eat or what, but whenever I think of oats-I think of that horse. Sorry to post such a silly story-but I don't think I will ever forget that tour!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> And I'll also ask about gas-because we were at the Budweiser Clydesdale farm in NH when I was young and there was a horse laying on his side that had THE loudest gas I have ever heard. Even the tour guide was laughing-he just kept ripping-musically. Even the horse in the stall next to him was looking, like...dude! I don't know if it was the oats they eat or what, but whenever I think of oats-I think of that horse. Sorry to post such a silly story-but I don't think I will ever forget that tour!



















That is too funny, Jean!

Yes, find out about the oat treats, I am sure Jake would be fine with Oats. He normally tolerates most stuff fine, unless it affects his ears because of his allergies.

Val thanks. Yes, all my searching, most stuff he couldn't have. I do like that website you found though, I might look into those.

The meatloaf would be great. he could have all that except the brown rice which could be changed to white. I might make that tomorrow. 
I will see what I have in my kitchen and try and get creative.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy, I was thinking like quarter size flattened and bake at maybe a little lower heat to dry them out. I know many people say brown rice is better but white rice over cooked has laways worked better at my house. When Cheyenne was having so many food problems she wouldn't touch a chicken based food or even home cooked chicken or turkey. So her treats have always been little pieces of lean meat either fried or oven baked until pretty dry. Once in a while she gets a real dog biscuit, another treat for her and Raya are carrots.

Jean I am surprised that someone didn't get that Clydesdale up and walking, sounds like it was getting close to a case of colic, which can be as deadly to horses as bloat to dogs.


----------



## djpohn

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Hey Tammy,

Here is a link to a bunch of different liver recipes


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Yeah, Val, you would wonder, huh-especially with horses that were really like products to the company. No one seemed to be concerned. 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Just Oat "Treats"








It's very easy!
Use Quaker Oats (they are in a cylindrical box-the old fashioned oats). Get the one that is the "minute" oats. For my pups (16lb mini schnauzers) I use (and these are approximate measures):

For treats:

1/2 cup water
1 cup oats
bring water to a boil, and stir in the oats for 1 minute
then take off stove and spread on a cookie sheet (or something similar)--no need to use any oil or spray--it doesn't stick.
I tend to just put it on the cookie sheet and then spread it out on the cookie sheet with my fingers.
It depends how thin you spread it, and how much water is in it (I tend to spread it out as thin as I can)--but start off at pre-heated 375 degrees for 30 minutes, then take it out and turn the oats over. Then break it up with a handle of a knife to the approximate size treats you want--or even your fingers, and put it back in --check every 10 minutes or so to see if done. 
You don't want to burn them...BUT...you do want them totally crunchy. If any seem damp on one side-it's not done.
I am not sure how long they are good for when not refrigerated...I have left them out 4 -5 days and they have been fine. After that I tend to stick in the fridge, but I probably don't need to (I need to call Quaker abt that). I assume it would be like oatmeal cookies you leave out--and they last several days.
I store in a baggie or Tupperware.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
For use in giving medication:

1/2 cup water 
1/2 cup oats
bring water to boil and stir in oats for 1 minute
put in a bowl and let cool awhile. Then either form into balls that pills can be stuck into, or flatten into different sizes where pills can be put onto.
Keep in refrigerator for only abt 3 days


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Thanks Val, GS Mom, and Jean. Much appreciated!

GS Mom, those are great recipe's, thanks so much!

Jean, that is an easy recipe, thanks.

I am going to be trying all of these out and see what he likes best. I have lots of time on my hands for experimenting.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,

You can add carob powder for flavor to the oat balls. They love the taste of it!

I have some recipes too--I just have to find them! 

And you can send any he doesn't like here--both Rafi and Chama will eat anything!


----------



## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Hey guys, I baked Jake lots of goodies yesterday, thanks to all of you for your suggestions.

The Recipe list GS Mom gave me, I made the gourmet dog biscuits, what a treat! He was really excited with those. 

I also made the meatloaf recipe, but decided to let that be for all the dogs, so they don't feel left out, again, that went over well.

Jake's favorite are the oatmeal balls. I made those this morning and added the Carob powder like Ruth suggested. Thanks Ruth! Those are in his treat jar and will keep just fine, since I only made a small batch.

Jake wishes to thank all of you for all his yummies!!


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## mspiker03

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Tammy,
What about dehydrating just plain beef/steak for treats?

I have some recipes somewhere...but I know many have wheat flour in them and I know one has peanut butter (wasn't sure if he could have that or not because I haven't looked at the actual ingrediants in peanut butter in awhile). Let me know if you want some of those recipes as well.


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## TMarie

OMG!! You just made me realize I have never looked at the ingredients of P. Butter either,







It has Soybean oil in it, he can't have that. UGH! I have been giving that to him too,







although not very often.
No wonder he gets yeasty ears. I am so bad.

I never thought of dehydrating anything, that is a GREAT idea. Thanks so much. 

Since I quit giving him the treats and the cottage cheese his ears have cleared up completely.


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## mspiker03

You know, I just checked one of the peanut butter jars in my house (I was curious)...and the Skippy Natural Creamy has:
roasted peanuts, sugar, palm oil and salt

NO Soybean oil!

So, you may be able to do some peanut butter treats if you get a different brand of peanut butter. Make make some of the oat treats with peanut butter?


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## TMarie

OH that explains it. I have Jif creamy and it has rapeseed and soybean oil.
So I will have to switch brands. Good to know.

Jake likes sweets, so adding the peanut butter would be good to him.


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## LisaT

Are you still giving him any flaxseed?


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## SusiQ

I found treats that are purely dehydrated fish skins - the dogs love them and they're chewy so they last a little longer - not only that, they smell very fresh - not stinky! I'll look up the brand name when I get home. I got them at my local holistic pet store.


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## TMarie

> Originally Posted By: LisaTAre you still giving him any flaxseed?


No.








When I discovered he was allergic to milk and quit giving the cottage cheese, I realized the flaxseed oil I was giving him had soy in it.

It is never ending, I'm bad.


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## LisaT

It's a minefield with these dogs and their allergies -- believe me - I *do* know how you feel.

If you are so inclined, you can take a couple of teaspoons of flaxseeds and grind them and mix with a bit of water with the dinner. I'm really a big believer in their anti-cancer properites. This is how I give both of mine flax -- no oil, no cottage cheese, I just grind a bit up each night.


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## middleofnowhere

To back up a bit - to colic the horse stops passing gas. As long as it is passing gas you are OK. No farts = bad news in the horse department.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Then that was the healthiest horse in the whole wide world!









I am so glad he likes the oatmeal treats. I am going to pass along the carob idea!

XOXO Jake!


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## TMarie

What about Flaxseed oil soft gels? I bought those for Jarie, but never gave them. They have no soy. They are 1000 mg each. Would those work? If so how many should I give him?

Also Off topic a bit, I want to give those to Jarie also. Her coat is a little dry. I have been hesitant to give them to her since we finally got her health up and stools are normal. We switched her food to the Evo when I started that with Jake, to see how she does, and she is doing great on it, but I am afraid to add any oil for fear it will cause soft stools.

What do you guys think?


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## djpohn

You might want to try salmon oil capsules instead of the flax seed. Salmon oil only contants omega 3's which are usually deficent in a diet and is needed to balance the omega 6's. Flaxseed contains both omega 3's which they need, but also Omega '6's which they usually do not need more of.

I have never had a dog (or puppy) get diarrhea from salmon oil capsules.


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## LisaT

The benefit of the flax is the lignans (potent cancer fighters), and I don't think those are in the gels. Also, I think that flax goes rancid very quickly -- I've always wondered how good the pills would be under those conditions. 

I **cannot** add oils to my dogs food, or they do get loose stools. And oddly enough, fish oil capsules make Indy limp. However, if I add it in terms of food, i.e. either baked salmon or fresh ground flaxseeds, then they are fine. YOu probably have to experiment.


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## TMarie

GS Mom and Lisa Thanks for the info.

I have the flaxseeds so I ground some tonight like you suggested Lisa, and mixed it with Jake's dinner, that was fine and easy enough, so he will be getting that.

I think I am going to experiment with the Salmon Oil capsules with Jarie, I have to run to the health food store tomorrow, so I will pick some up. I just hate giving anything to her, she is so sensitive. She is a picky eater so I would rather not put something in her food. I guess if she has a problem with soft stools from the capsules, I could try the ground flaxseed, and see if she will still eat her food.


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## djpohn

My dogs love the capsule, I just hand them out and they eat them plain. Even the pups love them. You can either just put it in her food or you can puncture it so some of the oil comes out! Most dogs like the oil!


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE......Ok Lisa, I have some questions about the Chiro. I scheduled an appt for the 9th, that is the soonest she could get me in.......


Well, Max is getting his dental done now, which means that tomorrow is jake's chiro appt









I hope that you're still feeling okay about it.

We have an appointment next week. I figured that after max gets work done on his mouth (and they have to extract a broken tooth too







), then he's going to be all out of wack. So how funny does a GSD look with only one front canine tooth?

If you added the flaxseed back in the diet, did the ears stay okay, or did they start getting worse again?


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Aw yes, I am still okay with it, but I must confess I am VERY nervous.
Since I have never been to a Chiro before, I really don't know what to expect.
The other reason for being nervous, I will not be able to be with him. I have to work, so My hubby will be taking him alone. His appt is at 1:30 tomorrow. Jake is a super good and gentle boy, so I am sure he will be fine. I just don't want him to come home with more pain.

I have been grinding the Flaxseed every day for Jake. His ears are still clear, so far so good.

Poor Max, missing a canine tooth. Ouch. I hope the extraction went easy. I know a Malinois that had a canine pulled, and he likes to give his Elvis impersonation, and the one side that the Canine is missing, is the lip that he lifts. It is so funny, his owner now says "where's your tooth"? He He, the dog then lifts the lip to show *no tooth* FUNNY!!


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

Okay, so Jake's appt has no started -- keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well. I'm actually not nervous about it, but I do hope that it resolves some stuff for him. I had never been to a chiro when I first took Indy -- I was soooooooooo nervous, and so overprotective of her because so many vets hadn't a clue about what was wrong with her.

My mutts, because of Indy, go to the chiro every 3 weeks. To be honest, there might be twice a year, where Indy seems like she was more painful than when she went in, but then the next visit usually resovles some major issues. Sometimes she just seems to go through that. They do say some dogs may be more ouchy after the first visit, but when i asked my chiro that, she said that it's not typical. She's got some pretty amazing stories -- she sometimes gets dogs after they've been taken to UC Davis and the neurology dept doesn't know what to do with them. It's kinda cool too, she's worked on a couple of Westminster dogs too -- apparently one of the handlers lives in her area.

I will have to teach Max that trick. He is such a trooper. I did break down and give him some of the rimadyl that they sent home -- that stuff makes me nervous, but I know how mouth/tooth pain can hurt. Of course I had to throw in some extra liver support for that! Deep down, I'm hoping that getting rid of that dying tooth will help his red eyes....

Looking forward to a positive report on the chiro visit!!


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake is having surgery Update*

I am so glad things went well with the tooth extraction.

Jake is there now, as soon as he comes home and see how he is doing, I will let you know.

I wish I was there with him, but he is in good hands with his dad.


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## TMarie

*Re: Jake, Chiro update*

UGH!
I am so sorry it has taken so long for an update. My husband has been really sick, and I don't think many of you here would disagree when it comes to men being sick. Just not fun. Not to mention me being one person trying to handle everything around here. Crazy, crazy.

Anyhow, Jake's Chiro appt went well. I wasn't there, so I can only go by what I could get out of my husband, which he pretty much had no voice when he came home last week from the appt. He also never asks questions. 

The Chiro had him walk and trot a little to evaluate how he moved. After she had her hands all over his body, she said his back and spine seemed to be good, but said his neck was a little tense, tight? So she worked on his neck some. He wasn't limping or dragging his foot when he went in, and actually was doing pretty well.

When he came home he actually seemed to be more relaxed and not really running, but trotting with more enthusiasm. 
Jake does seem to be feeling better, and happier. I don't know if it is because of the Chiro. My husband made another appt for 4 weeks from now. He said he was really good, and the Chiro said he was very easy to work with. 
She worked on him while standing, (I didn't know that is how they do it). He said that she sometimes uses a tool, but she used her hands for him. I don't know what that is either. 

I am just going to have to make sure I go next time, because I really feel left out, and a little lost now, without directly being involved. 
Don't get me wrong, I love hubby, but I sometimes just don't think I get all the info.

All in all, he did fine. My husband says, that Jake seemed to really like the Chiro and after the adjustment, he got really happy and was offering her lots of kisses.
So, hopefully this is all a good sign.


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## LisaT

*Re: Jake, Chiro update*



> Originally Posted By: TMARIE....and I don't think many of you here would disagree when it comes to men being sick. Just not fun.....


Say no more!!! Been there







I was just getting worried when we didn't hear from you. I thought, oh, no, Jake finally goes to the chiro and it's a disaster!!!! (hope DH feels better soon)

I'm so glad that the appointment went well!! Of course the limp wasn't there -- don't those things always go away when you get to the vet?

I'm glad about the back, and not surprised about the neck. I know how crummy I feel when my neck needs an adjustment -- it can affect just about everything -- so I'm glad that he seems to be feeling better.

The tool that she's talking about is called an activator. I think a GSD could take it, my mixed breed couldn't. I don't know if our chiro uses it on other dogs -- I know she uses it on humans. Both of my dogs stand when getting adjusted, though at times Max will sit during certain parts.




> Quote:...I am just going to have to make sure I go next time, because I really feel left out, and a little lost now, without directly being involved. Don't get me wrong, I love hubby, but I sometimes just don't think I get all the info.


I hear you on both accounts!!!



> Quote:All in all, he did fine. My husband says, that Jake seemed to really like the Chiro and after the adjustment, he got really happy and was offering her lots of kisses. So, hopefully this is all a good sign.


That's a very good sign!!! Max is a bit of a snot -- he'll act like the chiro is his best friend, but after the adjustment, he'll go into the other room and lie down, ready to go. It's like, I'm done, I got what I wanted, we're outta here. How rude he is!!! However, in the morning when I tell Max we're going to see the chiro, he runs all over, jumps on the bed, and can't contain himself. Then he gets in the car and barks at anything that moves. ugh.

I'm glad it went well. I do think that keeping that neck working will help the nerves, and even a tune-up after the surgery will make him better.

Thanks for the update!


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## TMarie

Well, Jake is not doing well today. He has done his hiding thing all day. If he isn't hiding, or trying to hide, he sits by the gate to my daycare room which is his access to the door where hubby comes in from. He only sits there when he is waiting and wanting for his dad.









Then he gives me the look when he wants out back, so I go out with him, he doesn't do anything, then comes back in and hides.









Why do I have the feeling in the pit of my stomach something is still lurking inside of him, and I don't know what it is?

He asks for a treat, I give it to him, he takes it, but still hides. He hasn't really slept all day, well he has, just not as much. He just looks and is acting very depressed today.

Then the lump I found in his ear. I really with I would of gotten a good picture of it. I did take pics, but they are hard to see because they were taken when his ears became infected with all that black gunk. I hadn't taken him to have the lump checked yet. His ears are great now, but guess what, The lump is gone. The only way I could describe it is it was pea size, not soft or hard but more spongy feeling. Now there is just a little mark where it was, and doesn't look like anything.

I don't know if it came off, or went down, I don't know? I don't even know if that is good or not. I just don't know.


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## WiscTiger

WOW Tammy this is not what I really wanted to hear. But don't give up hope. Maybe he is just feeling a little off today, maybe he could use another Chiro. adjustment. Could be a weather front, that just has him feeling moody.

Val


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's true. Sometimes when I get a little wacky (okay-it could be more than a little) my vet will ask if sometimes I have a bad day/don't feel so hot. Of course, yes, and because I know what's happening, I can be okay with that. So yeah, sometimes they do have a day where they have a stomach ache, or a little sinus thing, or whatever, but since we aren't sure, we get nervous. So he tells me to watch for it for more than 1 day and if it continues, then I am allowed to worry. I am hoping that this is a one day thing and that Jake has a better day tomorrow. I think sometimes they do get in a little funk. Nina was a little eh today-nothing big, but I figure tomorrow I'll take her out for a little walk or something to get her spirits up. It also doesn't help when you are so in tune to every little thing with them! XOXO to Jake!


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## LisaT

Are his ears being held in a slightly different position than usual?


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## TMarie

His ears are fine. He is holding them in their normal upright position. I just looked in his ears again, and they are really clean, and no signs of a lump now. In fact, the spot where the lump was, there isn't even a mark there now, as if it was never there to begin with. I find that really odd.

He is acting better today. Yesterday he was still hiding and acting depressed. This morning he seems to be a little more energetic and not hiding as of yet.

He is starting to do that little cough and gag again. 

He also started licking his ankle. He has created a nice size sore, so now I have to get a handle on that.

I am thinking since we have been having some really cold weather here, (cold according to us west coast folks), could be causing him to feel a little under the weather?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I wonder if it was a little bug bite in his ear?

I think the weather does affect them. Most of mine get more energy in the cold, but if it's windy, Nina won't even go out. 

Anything you can do that generally perks him up? I hope he continues to do better.


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## LisaT

I would take your thumb and massage the indentations between each of his vertebrae from the top of the skull to the base of the tail, and see if he reacts on any of them. When my dog's back is bothering her in a certain way, it's her knee that she gnaws on, with Max, he bites his ankles and his wrists. Maybe the chiro visit changed something. Maybe he needs his ankle stretched out because he's now using it differently. Maybe these ideas are way out in left field.....


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## TMarie

I don't think the lump in the ear was a bug bite. It was attached like a big mole is attached, which made it kind of wiggly? Weird.

Lisa, I will try the massage thing tonight and see how he reacts. He has been better today, all except the chewing on the ankle thing.


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## LisaT

It was a shot in the dark -- when you are messing around, try massaging and stretching the ankle too -- I know Max has real ankle issues.


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