# Artica German Shepherds



## Meika's Mom

Hi All,

I have a white german shepherd from Artica Kennels in Canada. I am considering breeding my dog and have heard that Artica Kennel is no longer in business. My dog was born on Oct. 20, 2005. Her parent sire is Artica's Corona and parent dam is Artica's Tango. I would like to find out more about my dogs siblings amd would like to find a white stud dog from the Artica line. Do any of you own a white Artica German Shepherd?

Meika's Mom


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## Anthony8858

Try searching The pedigree tool for professionals -

Ya never know.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica's German Shepherds*

Anthony,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've already tried the pedigree database; however, maybe I should try posting something on their Forum also. Since this is my first experience with a forum I'm not really sure how they work. For instance, I would have placed a picture of Meika on my original message but did not know how. Do I just use the attachment tool?

Meika's Mom


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## doggiedad

what makes your dog breed worthy???


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## Emoore

Meika's Mom said:


> Since this is my first experience with a forum I'm not really sure how they work. For instance, I would have placed a picture of Meika on my original message but did not know how. Do I just use the attachment tool?


You need to upload your pictures to a hosting website like photobucket. Then when you go to your picture on photobucket you'll see a thing that says img code. Copy the whole img code and paste it in a message here. It should look like: [i mg]http://www.something.com[/im g]. Then when you click post the picture will show up. Over in the _Pictures! Pictures!_ section there's a step-by-step walkthrough for posting pictures.



Meika's Mom said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I've already tried the pedigree database; however, maybe I should try posting something on their Forum also.


I would not. I've looked at your dog's ancestors on the database. No offense, but the people at pedigreedatabase would eat you alive. They would say rude and mean things because your dog is not bred under the SV system, nor is it a European working or show line dog. People over there are not nearly as nice as they are here.


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## Anthony8858

Emoore said:


> You need to upload your pictures to a hosting website like photobucket. Then when you go to your picture on photobucket you'll see a thing that says img code. Copy the whole img code and paste it in a message here. It should look like: [i mg]http://www.something.com[/im g]. Then when you click post the picture will show up. Over in the _Pictures! Pictures!_ section there's a step-by-step walkthrough for posting pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not. I've looked at your dog's ancestors on the database. No offense, but the people at pedigreedatabase would eat you alive. They would say rude and mean things because your dog is not bred under the SV system, nor is it a European working or show line dog. People over there are not nearly as nice as they are here.


Sounds as if you found the pedigree information.
Maybe you can post a link for the OP.


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## Konotashi

As far as pedigrees go, I'm no help at all. If you don't have his pedigree, then don't breed him. That should be the very first thing you should have before considering breeding. 

But how old is your dog? Does he have hip/elbow certification from OFA or PennHip? Does he have any titles? Obedience, conformation, rally, agility, flyball, etc.? Those are the first absolute bare minimums you should have/consider before wanting to breed.


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## Freestep

Meika's Mom said:


> My dog was born on Oct. 20, 2005.


6 years of age is not the ideal time to start breeding your bitch. Why do you want to breed her? Has she been shown, titled, OFA'd? If none of those things, no reputable stud dog owner will give you the time of day. Without OFA certification and at least some kind of title or temperament test, or even any paperwork, the only studs you'll be able to find are similarly untitled, untested, backyard-bred dogs of questionable quality, and you don't want to go that route.

Artica is renowned for deliberately breeding dogs against the standard, so I wouldn't consider any of them breeding quality. Not to say there's anything wrong with your dog, I'm sure she is a lovely pet. She just doesn't need to be bred, that's all.


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## Emoore

Anthony8858 said:


> Sounds as if you found the pedigree information.
> Maybe you can post a link for the OP.


I found the sire:
Artica's Corona - German Shepherd Dog

A few half-siblings:
Artica's Shania Of Creekwell - German Shepherd Dog
Artica's Pepper - German Shepherd Dog

And I think a cousin:
Artica's Mystic Mya - German Shepherd Dog


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## arycrest

Meika's Mom said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have a white german shepherd from Artica Kennels in Canada. I am considering breeding my dog and have heard that Artica Kennel is no longer in business. My dog was born on Oct. 20, 2005. Her parent sire is Artica's Corona and parent dam is Artica's Tango. I would like to find out more about my dogs siblings amd would like to find a white stud dog from the Artica line. Do any of you own a white Artica German Shepherd?
> 
> Meika's Mom


:greet: Welcome from Central Florida!!!

I didn't realize Artica had gone out of business.

You don't mention what area you live in, but there are several WGSD clubs that hold conformation shows along with the UKC and some rare breed clubs. You can enter her in some of these conformation shows sponsored by these clubs to ensure that her conformation meets the breed standard. The second thing you'll need to do is to have several health tests done (including OFA or OVC) to help ensure you'd have a good chance of having healthy puppies. The members of these clubs can also help you find a quality stud dog.
White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || Welcome
White German Shepherd Dog Club International, Inc.™
United Kennel Club: Home
WSCC White Shepherd Club of Canada
AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*




doggiedad said:


> what makes your dog breed worthy???


 

Welll...she is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant and would make any boy scout proud! 

If this is not enough she is healthy, intellegent and beautiful.


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## Emoore

Meika's Mom said:


> Welll...she is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, *thrifty*, brave, clean, and reverant and would make any boy scout proud!


If she's really thrifty, sign me up! My dogs are fracking *expensive!*


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## Jack's Dad

Meika's Mom said:


> Welll...she is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant and would make any boy scout proud!
> 
> If this is not enough she is healthy, intellegent and beautiful.


Best response to one of those questions ever.


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## arycrest

Jack's Dad said:


> Best response to one of those questions ever.


I disagree. This is why there are so many BYB's and dogs ending up in shelters ... Fluffy is such a wonderful pet, we just have to breed her!!! Breeding dogs is serious and should be done in a thorough and thoughtful manner, not just randomly selecting a bitch which has qualities like a Boy Scout and a dog who's from the same kennel and throwing them together because they might make nice babies.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



arycrest said:


> :greet: Welcome from Central Florida!!!
> 
> Thank you for your helpful information. First, I would like to a make acorrection; I put Meika's bithdate as 10/20/2005 when I should have written 10/20/2006. She just turned five years old not six. Regardless, it seems that most of the white shepherd competitions are in the east not in the western part of the USA. At her age (if allowed at that age) she would be competing against two year olds by the time she got a title she would be too old to breed. If I breed her it would be a one time breeding and would have to occur within the year. Hence, the desire to find out more about her genetic history from siblings, cousins etc.... I have visited the white german shepherd database and have also looked at the german shepherd database, but have found little information. I'm sure you willl agree that the more information I can find out about all of her relatives the better. As observed on the database many of the welll known kennels have had some genetic problems somewhere in the history.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



arycrest said:


> I disagree. This is why there are so many BYB's and dogs ending up in shelters .
> 
> I agree which is why I have posted a request to find out more about her genetics. Perhaps you missed my first message whcih said I am considering breeding her. Is every dog which has not been shown unworthy of breeding. I don't think so. I have no intention of getting in a battle about so and so standards as there are differences between countries and dogs. Those who suggested she be hip tested are correct (if I decide to breed her) her hips have been exrayed, but not sent in to the AKC as her registry is still whith the CKC. At this time I am simply gathering informaton. Also, she should meet the German Shepherd or White Shepherd standards just because she has not been shown does not mean that she does not meet the standards.


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## arycrest

Meika's Mom said:


> arycrest said:
> 
> 
> 
> :greet: Welcome from Central Florida!!!
> 
> Thank you for your helpful information. First, I would like to a make acorrection; I put Meika's bithdate as 10/20/2005 when I should have written 10/20/2006. She just turned five years old not six. Regardless, it seems that most of the white shepherd competitions are in the east not in the western part of the USA. At her age (if allowed at that age) she would be competing against two year olds by the time she got a title she would be too old to breed. If I breed her it would be a one time breeding and would have to occur within the year. Hence, the desire to find out more about her genetic history from siblings, cousins etc.... I have visited the white german shepherd database and have also looked at the german shepherd database, but have found little information. I'm sure you willl agree that the more information I can find out about all of her relatives the better. As observed on the database many of the welll known kennels have had some genetic problems somewhere in the history.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you checked UKC ... they have shows all over the US. You can get a title in one weekend ... most of the clubs I mentioned have two shows a day for two or three days. But going to several, having a couple experts evaluate her conformation would be very beneficial to you in deciding if you should breed her or not. Shucks, there are many GSD breeders who are licensed AKC judges, you might even be able to contact a few of them to get an impartial evaluation of her conformation.
> 
> Of course getting the health screening is easier. The only problem I can think of is that some vets are better than others when doing quality hip -rays for submission to OFA/OVC.
Click to expand...


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



Emoore said:


> If she's really thrifty, sign me up! My dogs are fracking *expensive!*


A healthy dog is as thrify as your going to get.


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## Emoore

Meika's Mom said:


> A healthy dog is as thrify as your going to get.


Yeah, but for some reason they still want food, they still want toys, they still want collars and leashes and microchips and soft beds to lie on, they want somebody to take care of them when I go out of town (to the tune of $50 a night because I have two), they still need check-ups. Mine just aren't thrifty. You're lucky yours is.


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## Freestep

Meika's Mom said:


> Also, she should meet the German Shepherd or White Shepherd standards just because she has not been shown does not mean that she does not meet the standards.


How would you know if she meets the standards, if she hasn't been shown and evaluated by a judge?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Meika's Mom said:


> Welll...she is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant and would make any boy scout proud!
> 
> If this is not enough she is healthy, intellegent and beautiful.



These are traits that make a fantastic pet. To be breed worthy she should be some of these things along with being in the breed standard, health tested (hips and elbows xrayed and evaluated), temperament tested, etc.


Here's a helpful guide:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## WarrantsWifey

Bah-humbug, another one of these threads. Good Luck OP, you just opened a WHOLE can of worms. 

Please though, do me an HONEST TO GOD favor. Please go to your local kill shelter, just WALK through, look into those eyes and if you can HONESTLY breed your dog and bring more dogs into shelters like this one, nobody can stop you, but at least you'll do it with the knowledge at which situation your dogs puppies may end up in. I hear ALL the time, I'll only pick the best of homes, but people's situations change, people can die in car accidents and dogs end up in a kill shelter, SO many things can happen..... You picking somebody doesn't guarantee they won't end up there.... PLEASE, just go, look, because I fight ALL THE TIME, to pull these dogs that are going to be euthed because they've been there two weeks and can't find a home and they need to make room for more incoming dogs..... 

Please, I beg of you, take 20 mins of your day, and go look. Maybe you'll consider helping these dogs out and being an advocate for them too...


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## Jack's Dad

arycrest said:


> I disagree. This is why there are so many BYB's and dogs ending up in shelters ... Fluffy is such a wonderful pet, we just have to breed her!!! Breeding dogs is serious and should be done in a thorough and thoughtful manner, not just randomly selecting a bitch which has qualities like a Boy Scout and a dog who's from the same kennel and throwing them together because they might make nice babies.


I was not making a judgement as to whether she should breed her dog or not.

I was pointing out that she answered a common question asked by a member that is irrelevant, in a light hearted way.

The reason I say irrelevant is because it is asking someone to justify to an individual member why they think their dog is breed worthy. Does that member know how to determine a dogs worthiness. If so then it would be better to state their opinion on that. Tell the OP what you think makes a dog breed worthy and then there may be something to talk about.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



Freestep said:


> How would you know if she meets the standards, if she hasn't been shown and evaluated by a judge?


Good question. The White Shepherd standards are listed on the web. There are few UKC events in the western part of the USA and white shepherds can not be shown for confirmation in the AKC.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



WarrantsWifey said:


> Bah-humbug, another one of these threads. Good Luck OP, you just opened a WHOLE can of worms.
> 
> Please do not assume that if someone breeds a dog they are not aware of the situations in shelters. Also, do not assume that they are not working to find homes for these animals as you may be dead wrong!


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## WarrantsWifey

Meika's Mom said:


> WarrantsWifey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bah-humbug, another one of these threads. Good Luck OP, you just opened a WHOLE can of worms.
> 
> Please do not assume that if someone breeds a dog they are not aware of the situations in shelters. Also, do not assume that they are not working to find homes for these animals as you may be dead wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, EXCUSE ME, I didn't say anything of that SORT. Maybe she/he just needs a reminder or maybe she/he DOES NOT KNOW. I do not know this person, as you do not know me. So next time, relax. I was not attacking the OP. You need not come after me.
Click to expand...


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## Castlemaid

Let's stop all the personal back and forth, and keep the thread on topic. 

The OP is looking for more info on Artica GSDs. The OP may also be open to helpful and tactful information about the pros and cons of breeding a pet dog without implied accusations or guilt tripping. 

Thank you.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



Castlemaid said:


> Let's stop all the personal back and forth, and keep the thread on topic.
> 
> Thank you Lucia!
> 
> Athony, I could also use some additonal help wth posting a photo. I now have a photo on photo bucket, but could not find the directions you were referring to on Pictures! Pictures!


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## angelas

Meika's Mom said:


> Athony, I could also use some additonal help wth posting a photo. I now have a photo on photo bucket, but could not find the directions you were referring to on Pictures! Pictures!


Copying from PB is easy peasy. Each photo has 4 options for copying the link. Click in the


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## Meika's Mom

angelas said:


> Copying from PB is easy peasy. Each photo has 4 options for copying the link. Click in the (it will copy) then past into the body of the post. It will show up before posting as a link, in the post it will show the pic.[/quote]
> 
> Sounds easy but I must be doing something wrong. Do I past the link right here where I'm currently typing or do I need to go to the Pictures! Pictures! page? Also, what is a trackbacK?


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## angelas

Not a clue what a track back is.

And yes, just paste it into the post you want it in. The Pictures category is for show casing and pic heavy posts.


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## Lucy Dog

There's a whole lot of close linebreeding on your dogs sire. Pretty much sitting on the border of inbreeding. Not seeing many hip scores in that pedigree either except for one OFA fair. Do you know any of those dogs in that pedigree?

It would probably help if you could get the dam's pedigree.


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## Emoore

Lucy Dog said:


> There's a whole lot of close linebreeding on your dogs sire. Pretty much sitting on the border of inbreeding. Do you know any of those dogs in that pedigree?
> .


Yeah, his mother and his grandfather are full siblings.


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



Lucy Dog said:


> There's a whole lot of close linebreeding on your dogs sire. Pretty much sitting on the border of inbreeding. Do you know any of those dogs in that pedigree?
> 
> Pictures by Meika1020 - Photobucket
> 
> Ok, I've tried to post a picture again. Let's see what happens. The dams pedigree is on our papers, but I can't seem to find any genetic information about the litter or dam.


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## Lucy Dog

Emoore said:


> Yeah, his mother and his grandfather are full siblings.


Yup... you're right. I guess that breeder likes to keep it in the family.


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## Lucy Dog

Meika's Mom said:


> Lucy Dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a whole lot of close linebreeding on your dogs sire. Pretty much sitting on the border of inbreeding. Do you know any of those dogs in that pedigree?
> 
> Pictures by Meika1020 - Photobucket
> 
> Ok, I've tried to post a picture again. Let's see what happens. The dams pedigree is on our papers, but I can't seem to find any genetic information about the litter or dam.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest with you... I don't even think I need to see that dam's pedigree. Based off the sire, I'm saying don't breed. Just my opinion.
> 
> Unless there's a very specific reason and purpose for all that inbreeding/linebreeding that you're looking to pass on, I say just enjoy your pet. Might not be what you want to hear, but based on that pedigree, your answer is pretty clear.
Click to expand...


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## Emoore

Here you go:









you just didn't put the







around the link.

Her pigment is very nice.


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## Emoore

No offense-- and I mean really, no offense-- if I were you and wanted to breed this dog I would NOT breed her to another Artica dog. Looking over dogs with the Artica kennel name, it would appear that this breeder did a lot of breeding close relatives. This practice is not all that uncommon, especially among some show line breeders, but if you're not an extremely experienced breeder who knows exactly what they're doing, it can get very messy.


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## arycrest

Meika's Mom said:


> Good question. The White Shepherd standards are listed on the web. There are few UKC events in the western part of the USA and white shepherds can not be shown for confirmation in the AKC.


This is true, breed standards for the clubs are posted on the various sites ... BUT bear in mind that it takes years of experience to be able to take those simple sentences making up a breed standard and to actually be able judge a dog following the standard ... it's not a simple process. 

Can you get her to a western UKC show or two then? If so she'll need to be registered with UKC. She can be registered as either a German Shepherd colored white or as a White Shepherd (but not both).

Your girl is pretty ... love that picture!!!


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## arycrest

FWIW I saw two kennel names in your sire's pedigree, one (Hoofprint was quite a ways back) I know for sure who it is, the other one (B-K) I "think" I may know who the breeder is if you're interesting in contacting either of them?


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## Meika's Mom

*Artica German Shepherd*



Emoore said:


> No offense-- and I mean really, no offense-- if I were you and wanted to breed this dog I would NOT breed her to another Artica dog. Looking over dogs with the Artica kennel name, it would appear that this breeder did a lot of breeding close relatives. This practice is not all that uncommon, especially among some show line breeders, but if you're not an extremely experienced breeder who knows exactly what they're doing, it can get very messy.


I agree. However, the book I have _Breeding A Litter_ states that in general the safest course for newcomers is to line breed. In fact, I've read in more than one book that the best option may be to breed with a cousin. Thus, my interest in finding another white relative. I have a friend that has a PHD in genetics; I thought if I could find out more information about Meika's relatives I could talk with him about this.


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## Meika's Mom

arycrest said:


> This is true, breed standards for the clubs are posted on the various sites ... BUT bear in mind that it takes years of experience to be able to take those simple sentences making up a breed standard and to actually be able judge a dog following the standard ... it's not a simple process.
> 
> Can you get her to a western UKC show or two then? If so she'll need to be registered with UKC. She can be registered as either a German Shepherd colored white or as a White Shepherd (but not both).
> 
> Your girl is pretty ... love that picture!!!


Looks like I just missed a show in the southern part of the state. It doesn't look I'll have another chance for quite awhile.


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## BlackPuppy

Meika's Mom said:


> If this is not enough she is healthy, intellegent and beautiful.


These are good qualities. Make sure you have the tests to back it up. Health screening, an obedience title, conformation show results. 

And do thorough screening of puppy buyers.

I have been to UKC shows a lot lately, and there are always a whole gaggle of white shepherds in attendance. I hope you have some in your area.


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


>


She's just beautiful!!! ( Artica's Corona was gorgeous too! )

I love to research the whites, love to see where it all leads. Sometimes OFA is the easiest way to track a line forward because siblings and offspring are often listed but that didn't work when I tried to find Artica's Tango. I can't find her anywhere. There are quite a few of Artica's dogs listed on OFA and with the AKC but none that lead to Tango. I guess her info is all on the CKC and OVC databases.  Aren't her parents listed on your pedigree?

If you really want to breed her I agree with others btw, take her out and see if you can get a few titles on her. Join the WGSDCA, AWSA or other white shepherd clubs, you'll get to know a lot of people breeding whites, get to know the lines etc. You might even meet breeders with Artica in their lines somewhere, you never know. If you end up not breeding her there will always be another great dog down the road. No rush!


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## Konotashi

Meika's Mom said:


> Welll...she is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant and would make any boy scout proud!
> 
> If this is not enough she is healthy, intellegent and beautiful.


Then just about everyone I know should breed their dog, if that's all you think a dog needs to breed. Heck, why shouldn't I breed my Pom? He's all of those things! And he's also thrifty because he's a little dog! BUT - I'm not going to breed him. Even after he gets flyball and maybe agility titles. He doesn't adhere to the standard. If I bred him,* it wouldn't benefit the breed in any way. *

Here are some nice white GSDs. 

This is Atlas from Atlas Kennels. He is titled out the wazoo. 









This male is only 8.5 months old in this photo. Bred by Kerstone shepherds (I know many on here have mixed opinions about this breeder), but I'm not usually a fan of white dogs, and this dog, in my opinion, is stunning. 









Here are some GSDs that I'm sure were bred for all of the reasons you stated - look where they ended up. (Each photo is a different dog).




























This girl was a drop-dead gorgeous female. You can't really tell from this photo, but seeing her in person (at better angles), you could tell she was a well-bred dog. 




































I know you might be thinking - but none of those are white GSDs! Trust me - they're just as common in shelters as the blacks, the black/tans, sables, etc. Several of the above dogs were on the euthanasia list. Some were rescued, others weren't as lucky.


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## Lucy Dog

Meika's Mom said:


> I agree. However, the book I have _Breeding A Litter_ states that in general the safest course for newcomers is to line breed. In fact, I've read in more than one book that the best option may be to breed with a cousin.


Carmen, cliff, robin, lee, lisa, or any of you other genetic guru's... any comment on the above statement?


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## Konotashi

How old is that book you're reading? 

Linebreeding should only be done by those who are experienced, know what they're doing, and have a purpose for it.

Did you read the first few pages? It says, "They carefully research the pedigrees of the dogs they have brought to a breeding. Conscientiously, they ensure the sire and dam are X-rayed (hips and elbows) along with being checked for other problems that may afflict their breed," on the first page. 
"People who sell puppies must be aware of those prospective buyers who, during the interview process, disclose they do not want to show, they only want to breed dogs. Dog shows are, by their very definition, the place where the quality of a breeding program is proven." 
...it is far easier to place a puppy from champion parents, or parents that are working successfully on their titles, than it is to sell a puppy from untitled parents."

That's all from your book, within the first two pages. Is linebreeding the only thing you took from the book?


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## RocketDog

Konotashi:

 

To the OP, and I don't mean any disrespect, the only thing I have to offer is this: 

Every single dog owner feels the same way about their dog. And the thing is--you didn't breed the dog that gave you your dog. This dog, before you brought her into your life, was not in any way related to any dog you had before. Yet you love her more than anything and want to breed her, to have a pup. But you will feel the same about any pup that is placed in your arms, and that you teach, grow with, share your life with, bond with. You don't have to breed a dog to love a pup. ,


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## selzer

I did not read all, but I agree with Freestep, that six years old is no time to start breeding a female. I just had a litter with Babs who turned six in August. She had a litter when she was three. Evenso, this litter was not easy to deliver. It was small probably due to her being a bit older or not having been bred in a long time. But that made the pups she did have larger. Two of them were the largest pups I have ever had. That was hard on Babs.


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## Meika's Mom

*Meika's Age*



selzer said:


> I did not read all, but I agree with Freestep, that six years old is no time to start breeding a female.
> 
> My error, she is not six. She just turned five which is still getting old and which is why I have to make a decision soon.


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## Freestep

Emoore said:


>


Lovely dog. Nice pigment, kind and intelligent expression, looks like a longcoat. No doubt a wonderful pet. She needn't be bred. There is no shortage of WGSDs that are already shown, titled, OFA'd, etc. that are being bred, the responsibility to keep the bloodline going does not rest on your shoulders.

If you are really interested in breeding, purchase a promising pup from a reputable breeder, get a mentor, do lots and lots of reading and research, do the showing, titling, OFA, etc, and THEN look into breeding with a compatible partner. That is the right road to take, and believe me, you don't want to do it any other way.


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## Emoore

Meika's Mom said:


> My error, she is not six. She just turned five which is still getting old and which is why I have to make a decision soon.


Breeding a maiden five year old is definitely riskier than breeding a maiden two year old, or an experienced five year old. If I were you I'd think really hard about if you're prepared to lose her or to have serious complications in the labor and delivery. 

My in-laws bred their older maiden dog (older as in five or six, not a senior). She rejected her 14 puppies and killed two of them. My in-laws had to bottle-feed 12 puppies every hour around the clock. They also had to stimulate them to eliminate and clean their messes-- something the mom usually does by licking. Selzer is a breeder and she's had a run of serious complications in whelping here lately. I'd encourage you to read a couple of her threads and ask yourself seriously if it's something you're ready to take on.


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## Meika's Mom

Konotashi said:


> How old is that book you're reading?
> 
> Linebreeding should only be done by those who are experienced, know what they're doing, and have a purpose for it.
> 
> Respectfully, I did read the first two pages which if you read my original email was why I posted to find out the genetic history of my dog. This would have been a lot easier had everyone with a White German Shepherd entered their dogs history in the white german shepherd pedigree database. However, since most don't know about it or may not want the public to know the history the information is limited. I have to give Artica Kennels credit at least they did not try to keep information from the public with regard to their dogs. The gap is with the offspring of those dogs. Also, this is not a spur of the moment consideration I have thought about this for many years and have done my research. I decided I wanted to know more about her history before I made a decision.
> 
> It's seems odd to me that those writing (if they are experienced breeders) are so easy to judge when many admittedly started in the same way and made many mistakes along their journey. Rather than judge, I would prefer you try to find owners of other Artica dogs and have them post their information either on this page or on the White German Shepherd Pedigree database. Regardless of my decision this information would be helpful to all owners of an Artica dog and to existing breeders who have Artica dogs in somewhere in their dogs pedigree.


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## Freestep

I think the reason you're not getting more info about Artica dogs is because Artica has not been out there showing, earning titles, etc. It seems their main breeding goals were to sell pets. I know she used to deliberately breed off-color dogs. Blond, blue, liver, washed-out pigment, no mask, etc. That to me is not responsible breeding, so I cannot really think much good of her program or her bloodlines, and to be honest I haven't heard much good either, other than "she is a wonderful pet and we love her".

I once emailed Artica to ask whether any of their breeding dogs were titled in obedience or any sport, and her response was "Many of our puppy buyers are training in obedience and other activities." 

Which answered my question in a roundabout way.

This was maybe ten years ago, so maybe things have changed since then, but seeing as she's out of business I sort of doubt it.


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## Meika's Mom

Freestep said:


> Lovely dog. Nice pigment, kind and intelligent expression, looks like a longcoat. No doubt a wonderful pet. She needn't be bred. There is no shortage of WGSDs that are already shown, titled, OFA'd, etc. that are being bred, the responsibility to keep the bloodline going does not rest on your shoulders.
> 
> Thank you. As you have stated their are many great looking WGSDs, however, if you can list some in the USA that have dogs which look like this, please do so. I'm sure they would love to see their kennel listed. It seems the breeders in the USA are breeding for a different look (big ears and short coats). I have not found this to be true when looking at dogs from other countries, but do not have the means to go visit these kennels in person and don't want to risk doing business over the internet. I know my dog and with additional information from her relatives would have an even better idea of what to expect. However, I am concerned about breeding her at this age.


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## Meika's Mom

Konotashi said:


> How old is that book you're reading?
> 
> Linebreeding should only be done by those who are experienced, know what they're doing, and have a purpose for it.
> 
> Who in their right mind would consider breeding a dog without having homes already lined-up with some extras for those who decide at the last minute the can't afford or do not want a dog?


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## Freestep

Meika's Mom said:


> As you have stated their are many great looking WGSDs, however, if you can list some in the USA that have dogs which look like this, please do so. I'm sure they would love to see their kennel listed.


I'm not an expert in WGSDs, so I couldn't tell you what kennels to look at, but I know there are other members here who have WGSDs who might be able to help you. You might want to start another thread with a title like "Reputable WGSD breeders?" or something like that.


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## Meika's Mom

Freestep said:


> I think the reason you're not getting more info about Artica dogs is because Artica has not been out there showing, earning titles, etc. It seems their main breeding goals were to sell pets. I know she used to deliberately breed off-color dogs. Blond, blue, liver, washed-out pigment, no mask, etc. That to me is not responsible breeding, so I cannot really think much good of her program or her bloodlines, and to be honest I haven't heard much good either, other than "she is a wonderful pet and we love her".
> 
> Although I can't address the color issue. Take a look at my dog's photo and tell me she has washed-out pigment. I don't believe any dog breeder wanting to sell pups would intentionally sell dogs with washed-out pigment. However, I am sure that all kennels produce some dogs which do not meet the standards. Artica indicated to me that they use to show dogs, but decided not to show any longer this would indicate that they knew what the standard should be. Additionally, I'm so sure that my dog has a good herding instinct that I will sign her up for an evaluation and get back with you. While I wish that Artica Kennels had more show dogs I don't believe that all dogs which come from people who do not show are not worthy of being breed (personal opinion).


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## ChancetheGSD

Emoore said:


> Breeding a maiden five year old is definitely riskier than breeding a maiden two year old, or an experienced five year old. If I were you I'd think really hard about if you're prepared to lose her or to have serious complications in the labor and delivery.
> 
> My in-laws bred their older maiden dog (older as in five or six, not a senior). She rejected her 14 puppies and killed two of them. My in-laws had to bottle-feed 12 puppies every hour around the clock. They also had to stimulate them to eliminate and clean their messes-- something the mom usually does by licking. Selzer is a breeder and she's had a run of serious complications in whelping here lately. I'd encourage you to read a couple of her threads and ask yourself seriously if it's something you're ready to take on.


I do have to agree. Zoey had her first litter at 6 and she was a terrible mother. I have no doubt in my mind that it wasn't because of her age. When she was younger, she played "mother" to a LOT of kittens. She'd never been bred but she'd clean them and let them nurse anyways. When she finally had her first litter of puppies (Mind you, this was my mothers doing before Zoey was my dog) she would sit on them, she'd leave them for hours and we'd have to take care of them to make sure they didn't get cold, she'd get aggressive towards them if we locked her in to MAKE her care for them, ect. She fed them and that was pretty much it and even then it wasn't enough for them to keep a healthy body weight alone so they required supplement feedings by hand. And that was for a litter of 3, I can't imagine raising 6-12+ puppies by hand!

Also, just because you have homes lined up does NOT mean the people will go through with it when the pups are ready to go home. Even if you do find them all homes there is a good chance at least ONE person, if not several, end up not wanting the puppy once it hits land shark stage and is too much to handle. Are you going to be willing to take back each and every puppy to ensure it NEVER ends up in a pound? Be it 6 months from their birth or 10 years? Healthy or sick? You bring dogs into this world, they become YOUR responsibly even once they are in a new home. If you can't live up to taking care of them until the day they die if their new owners can't, then you shouldn't breed. No good breeder would ever let their puppies end up in a bad situation, they'd take them back regardless of age or health and either keep/treat them, euthanize them (if they're really sick) and/or find them a good home. But it's still a matter of YOU as the breeder doing that regardless of age or expenses it will cost YOU down the line.

What can your GSD offer the world that these 183 WGSDS listed on Petfinder alone, couldn't offer?

Pet Search Results: Adoptable White German Shepherd Dog Pets in South Boston, VA: Petfinder


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## Freestep

Meika's Mom said:


> Although I can't address the color issue. Take a look at my dog's photo and tell me she has washed-out pigment. I don't believe any dog breeder wanting to sell pups would intentionally sell dogs with washed-out pigment.


You'd be amazed what dog breeders intentionally do.

While your dog has excellent skin pigment, I was talking more about coat color. I saw pictures of Artica dogs that were all tan, no black anywhere, not even the muzzle. I think she called them "honey gold" or something like that. I saw "black and silver" dogs where the tan pigment is washed out to the point of being almost white. I saw tan dogs with just a little bit of black tipping, I think she called that "gold sable" and she also had "silver sables" which looked like a chinchilla type pattern. That is what I meant by "washed out". I believe the standard calls for good pigment in the coat as well as the skin, I think color paling is a fault.

I tried to access some old Artica photos via the wayback machine to illustrate what I am talking about, but haven't had any luck.


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## Meika's Mom

ChancetheGSD said:


> What can your GSD offer the world that these 183 WGSDS listed on Petfinder alone, couldn't offer?
> 
> Pet Search Results: Adoptable White German Shepherd Dog Pets in South Boston, VA: Petfinder


If and I do say "if" I decide to breed my dog I would not do so unless I was willing to take on the responsibility for all the pups. 

With regard to petfinder, although I love petfinder I will say that before I purchased my dog I searched on petfinder for over a year and actually drove over 1,000 miles to take a look at a dog that was on their site only to find a puppy mill. I know this site is reputable and does great work for thousands of dogs, but buyers please be aware when purchaseing any animal from a kennel or from petfinder you may run into the exception. If I had the dog shipped directly to me I would have ended up with a sick unsocialized animal.


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## arycrest

I have the utmost respect for several WGSD breeders, here are two who might be able to help you. Joanne is in Ontario and Barb & Linda in Pennsylvania, but I'm sure they know about reputable breeders in the West.
Joanne Chanyi - Hoofprint & Lynsdens White Shepherds
Barb Hively/Linda Lessler - Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color


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## Meika's Mom

Freestep said:


> You'd be amazed what dog breeders intentionally do.
> 
> Thanks for your comments Freestep always well thoughout. I was only trying to say that with regard to white german shepherds she produced some good dogs maybe worth saving some of their qualities.


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## Meika's Mom

arycrest said:


> I have the utmost respect for several WGSD breeders, here are two who might be able to help you. Joanne is in Ontario and Barb & Linda in Pennsylvania, but I'm sure they know about reputable breeders in the West.
> Joanne Chanyi - Hoofprint & Lynsdens White Shepherds
> Barb Hively/Linda Lessler - Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color


Thank you for sending these links. I will contact them and see if they know of a breeder in on the west coast who breeds dogs similiar to mine. However, I would still like to hear from anyone who might have or knows or someone who has a White Artica Kennel dog. I'm still intersted in knowing more about my dogs relatives. 

I think it would be nice if when a kennel sells a dog they ask the new owners if they would mind if their email address is passed on to buyers of the siblings.


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## Emoore

Meika's Mom, I know this is a long shot but have you checked around facebook? A bunch of people who bought puppies from my breeder are all facebook friends with her and we all share photos and stories.


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## Meika's Mom

Emoore said:


> Meika's Mom, I know this is a long shot but have you checked around facebook? A bunch of people who bought puppies from my breeder are all facebook friends with her and we all share photos and stories.


Thanks for the idea. I don't have a facebook page, however, the breeder of my dog does have a page. Using my sons account I tried asking her to be my friend, but did not get a response back. On facebook can you contact other people who are her friends and ask them to be your friends. I'm not sure how facebook works.


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## Meika's Mom

arycrest said:


> I have the utmost respect for several WGSD breeders, here are two who might be able to help you. Joanne is in Ontario and Barb & Linda in Pennsylvania, but I'm sure they know about reputable breeders in the West.
> Joanne Chanyi - Hoofprint & Lynsdens White Shepherds
> Barb Hively/Linda Lessler - Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color


I'm still a little confused about one thing. I believe my dog meets the White Swiss Shepherd standards best, however, I don't fully understand the difference between the White Shepherd and the White Swiss Shepherd. Can you explain?

Thanks,


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## Pharoah's Mom

*Both My Dogs Parents Are From Artica*

My 12 year old white Shepherd is from Artica parents and he has some genetic problems I would not want any other dog or owner to have to go through. 

If I had to do it again, I would in a heartbeat...my boy is the best dog ever, but I would strongly suggest you do some genetic testing before you breed your dog and make sure the dog you mate yours with has had a genetic profile too.

There are too many problems with these beautiful dogs. It's a shame. 

My sweetie is cute as can be tho!


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## Jo_in_TX

Pharoah's Mom said:


> My 12 year old white Shepherd is from Artica parents and he has some genetic problems I would not want any other dog or owner to have to go through.
> 
> If I had to do it again, I would in a heartbeat...my boy is the best dog ever, but I would strongly suggest you do some genetic testing before you breed your dog and make sure the dog you mate yours with has had a genetic profile too.
> 
> There are too many problems with these beautiful dogs. It's a shame.
> 
> My sweetie is cute as can be tho!


Pharoah's mom, did you join specifically to tell of genetic problems with Artica dogs? If so, what were the specific genetic problems? I notice that this was your first post.


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## Pharoah's Mom

My dog has EPI Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. His pancreas has atrophied, at least the part that performs the exocrine functions and he does not produce digestive enzymes. I have to give him enzymes to digest his food for him, otherwise he would starve to death.


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## Pharoah's Mom

I did join to try and let anyone with an Artica dog that they should have their dog tested before breeding them. The gene that causes EPI has to be in both parents, if only one parent has this gene the puppies will not get EPI. The expense of this illness can be devastating. In the beginning I was spending 500.00 to 600.00 A MONTH for the medicine, enzymes and special food for my dog. I did this for about three years until I found a less expense alternative. But I had run up my credit cards by that time. Most people would not be able to afford that (not that I could either, I just gave up a lot of stuff) and dogs do not show signs until they are two years old up to five years old. So when people discover this in their dog, they are very attached to them.


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## Jo_in_TX

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this. Thanks for sharing more specifics with us. I hope the OP sees your post.


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## lmlloyd

I caught this thread months after the fact, and registered just to add something to it.

I just wanted to let the OP know, if they are still paying attention, that we had a wonderful Artica dog for 13 years. It was beyond a doubt the most beautiful, well tempered, intelligent animal I have ever had the pleasure of owning. There was quite literally not a single person who met him, who didn't immediately fall in love with him. He really was a credit to the breed. I seriously doubt that I will ever again be lucky enough to find such an amazing dog. Years later, I still get choked up even thinking about him, and of the many dogs I've owned, he is the only one I can say that about. However, despite several people begging us to breed him, we never never did. That was because he had shockingly bad hip problems. I'm not talking about later in life, I'm talking about from day one. He had hip problems he was born with, that could only have been the result of a genetic defect.

To the breeder's credit, they did offer to take him back, and replace him with another puppy, but we could tell pretty quickly he was a special dog, and decided to keep him, and when he was old enough, got him hip surgery. However, as much as it saddens me to say, I would never really recommend breeding an Artica dog as a result. Even after surgery, it was agony watching later in life, as we had to help him get up, because his condition degenerated. It was why we had to put him to sleep. I would never wish that on another dog, or owner, and so would highly recommend not breeding any dog from that line. If your Artica dog is anything like mine was, I would just say really appreciate every day you have with her, but don't breed her. You don't want to risk the same kinds of defects our dog had. 

That said, please choose not to breed her, because it is the right thing to do, not because of all this AKC, show, training, sporting, prize-winning, hobby geneticist nonsense. The dog we had after our Artica dog, was one of those supposedly wonderfully pedigreed dogs, every certification you can think of, temperament tested, parents with awards and distinction in both working and sporting, and it was the worst dog we have ever owned. Nervous, bad temperament, fear biting, severe separation anxiety, random aggression towards other dogs, you name a temperament problem, and this dog had it. He was a flawless physical specimen, who checked every kennel club box, but was the worst dog on Earth. After years of trying to train him, thousands of dollars in repairs to damages he made, and even putting him on mood stabilizing medication at the recommendation of our vet, we finally had to give him to some friends with a ranch, after he bit a jogger, and it became clear that this dog was completely unsuited to being around people.

Don't let the people pushing the pedigrees fool you. They have no more idea what makes a "good dog" than do the 'backyard breeders.' They just have clubs where they can sit around, patting each other on the back, and telling themselves how much they think know. Not a single one of these pompous jokers would have questioned whether the breeding pair that produced our horrible dog "deserved to breed," but clearly they have quite strong opinions, on very little information, about Artica dogs. Well guess what, our Artica dog would help us herd my wife's Sugar Gliders (very small exotic pets), without so much as bruising them, and the awful dog that "deserved" to be born, at least by the rules these people advocate, attacked a person with no provocation at all, and had to be muzzled any time he went to a park. In my value system, while I would never breed a dog with bad hips, I would pick bad hips and fantastic temperament, over having hips good enough to jump up and hurt people for no reason, any day of the week.


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## marbury

Lmlloyd, I think you'll find you just made a rather rude introduction for yourself. This is a forum for people who feel really, really strongly about their dogs, including many AKC breeders. They push pedigrees because they are proof and predictors for their dogs, not because they use them to stuff their smoking jackets while they sit back and use your money as tinder for their pipes.

I'm so glad you had a wonderful experience with one your dogs, he sounds like a fantastic boy. Perhaps, as you become more of a member of this forum, you'll share more your positive experiences and avoid being rude and pointing fingers because of your SINGLE bad experience.


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## Emoore

I'd really be interested to hear how lmlloyd things breeding dogs should be chosen. If not hip and elbow X-rays, health tests, and complementary pedigrees with performance and temperament titles behind them, and not dogs like his own Artica dog without the aforementioned tests. . . . . then what?


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## lmlloyd

Emoore said:


> I'd really be interested to hear how lmlloyd things breeding dogs should be chosen. If not hip and elbow X-rays, health tests, and complementary pedigrees with performance and temperament titles behind them, and not dogs like his own Artica dog without the aforementioned tests. . . . . then what?


If you really must know, as much as I love dogs, I'm not so sure we need an entire industry, clubs, and certification agencies for breeding them, regardless of the criteria you use. There seem to be millions of them just hanging out at shelters, which would lead me to believe we have a bit of a surplus.

I'm not saying no one should ever breed a dog, but from what I've seen at most breeders, and at most shelters, I don't really see much in all of those "health tests, and complementary pedigrees with performance and temperament titles" that add up to any special guarantee the dog won't end up just another mutt at the shelter.

Oh, and as a side note, Artica dogs had certifications going back several generations claiming there were no hip problems. Didn't turn out to be very useful in the case of my dog, but they had the OFA certifications.


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## lmlloyd

marbury said:


> Lmlloyd, I think you'll find you just made a rather rude introduction for yourself. This is a forum for people who feel really, really strongly about their dogs, including many AKC breeders. They push pedigrees because they are proof and predictors for their dogs, not because they use them to stuff their smoking jackets while they sit back and use your money as tinder for their pipes.
> 
> I'm so glad you had a wonderful experience with one your dogs, he sounds like a fantastic boy. Perhaps, as you become more of a member of this forum, you'll share more your positive experiences and avoid being rude and pointing fingers because of your SINGLE bad experience.


If there is one thing I've learned, it is that all you have to do to be "rude" on the Internet, is say something someone doesn't like.

I certainly see no shortage of people on this site who have no problem being less than cordial to others, when they think they are standing on the moral high ground. None the less, it was not my intention to be rude, nor was it my intention to complain about some sort of elitist attitude, as you seem to think.

I just happen to think, and this is based on 30 years of owning dogs (both with papers and without), not just a SINGLE bad experience as you put it, that kennel clubs, breeders aiming for rigid club standards, and an obsession with pedigrees and awards, has done more harm than good to most popular breeds in this country. Surely I am not the first person you have ever encountered with this belief. It is actually a fairly common sentiment, among the sort of dog owners who don't go to shows, or compete in events.

If you want me to put it as neutrally as possible, so as not to be rude, there is very little scientific evidence that dogs from pedigreed pairings are healthier, happier, live longer, have better temperaments, or fewer congenital defects, than random pairings. If anything, genetics tells us that as a rule, diversity is good, and statistically speaking, you are less likely to see inherited diseases in mutts, than in purebred animals. Furthermore, the vast majority of even the best breeders, base their breeding decisions on methods of animal husbandry that would be seen as positively archaic by modern livestock standards. Hardly any, for example, do any genetic testing at all, to actually screen for defects or problems. There is very little scientific basis to the idea that because your stud won an award at a show, and my bitch won an award at a show, then mating them will produce superior offspring. 

If genetics actually worked that way, then humanity would probably still be ruled by hereditary lineage. Genetics tends towards the mean. Regardless of species, two exceptional parents, are unlikely to produce an offspring as exceptional as they are, much less more exceptional. Their offspring will most likely be above average, but slightly less above average than the parents. Carry this over generation after generation, in an animal with relatively large litters, and you are guaranteeing mediocrity.

In all reality, award-winning pedigrees aren't any different that saying "all my friends think I have a great dog, and everyone thinks you have a great dog, so they should breed. Neither of them have ever had any health problems, so why not?" Of course, that is the attitude of the 'backyard breeder,' who is so reviled anywhere people brag about the papers their dogs carry. However, just change "my friends" with "contest judges" and swap "everyone" with a kennel club, and that is about the scientific basis for a large number of pedigree breeders.

I hope that more fully explains my position. And to make it clear, I don't particularly consider it polite, to tell someone that their wonderful and healthy dog, doesn't deserve to breed, just because it hasn't earned the approval of a club of people who have their own ideas about what makes a worthwhile dog. I of course know that those people will point to the medical problems that my dog had, and see that as validation that their standards are right, but of course, to do that, they have to just ignore the dangerous dog with a bad temperament, who ended up hurting someone, despite being the product of exactly the sort of pairing they advocate.


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## Lakl

Sheez, where is Cliff and Carmen when you need them. It is clear that you have a huge misunderstanding of the whole breeding process. Health testing and titles are important, yes, but if you don't choose a breeder that knows and UNDERSTANDS what they're putting together on paper, then it doesn't matter how many good ratings you see in your dogs pedigree. Genetics is about knowledge and titles and health testing help to stack the odds in that favor. I have a male now who's sire competed at the USA Sieger in 2011 and his dam had titles galore and several previous litters with sound pups. However, my breeder didn't bring the genetics into consideration when she matched these two, and as a result, my pup has serious health issues.

Maybe if you spent more time on this board you would come to understand that these people that put so much hard work into health testing and titling their dogs are not doing it just for club bragging rights.

Why don't you read this thread? A Lot of knowledgeable breeders chimed in on this one and there is a lot to be learned that may change your perception. Many have to read it twice as the information and knowledge can overwhelm you. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> Sheez, where is Cliff and Carmen when you need them. It is clear that you have a huge misunderstanding of the whole breeding process. Health testing and titles are important, yes, but if you don't choose a breeder that knows and UNDERSTANDS what they're putting together on paper, then it doesn't matter how many good ratings you see in your dogs pedigree. Genetics is about knowledge and titles and health testing help to stack the odds in that favor. I have a male now who's sire competed at the USA Sieger in 2011 and his dam had titles galore and several previous litters with sound pups. However, my breeder didn't bring the genetics into consideration when she matched these two, and as a result, my pup has serious health issues.
> 
> Maybe if you spent more time on this board you would come to understand that these people that put so much hard work into health testing and titling their dogs are not doing it just for club bragging rights.
> 
> Why don't you read this thread? A Lot of knowledgeable breeders chimed in on this one and there is a lot to be learned that may change your perception. Many have to read it twice as the information and knowledge can overwhelm you.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


And this might change your perception, though I doubt it.

The Genetics of . . . Dogs | Genetics | DISCOVER Magazine


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## Lakl

lmlloyd said:


> And this might change your perception, though I doubt it.
> 
> The Genetics of . . . Dogs | Genetics | DISCOVER Magazine


 This article proves my point regarding the importance of understanding the genetics of the dogs they are breeding and not just the titles. The author is also looping one specific line, the showline, into an entire breed of dogs. He doesnt like German Shepherds because he is only familiar with one particular line. A bit biased if you ask me. That particular line is also discussed in the thread I posted as well. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make a sweeping judgement.


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## Emoore

lmlloyd said:


> If you really must know, as much as I love dogs, I'm not so sure we need an entire industry, clubs, and certification agencies for breeding them, regardless of the criteria you use. There seem to be millions of them just hanging out at shelters, which would lead me to believe we have a bit of a surplus.


Okay then. I agree there's a surplus, by the way.


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## Freestep

lmlloyd said:


> And to make it clear, I don't particularly consider it polite, to tell someone that their wonderful and healthy dog, doesn't deserve to breed, just because it hasn't earned the approval of a club of people who have their own ideas about what makes a worthwhile dog. I of course know that those people will point to the medical problems that my dog had, and see that as validation that their standards are right, but of course, to do that, they have to just ignore the dangerous dog with a bad temperament, who ended up hurting someone, despite being the product of exactly the sort of pairing they advocate.


No responsible, ethical breeder is going to breed a dog with bad temperament, no matter what the pedigree. Only backyard breeders do that.

Breeding is always a crapshoot; you breed the best to the best, dogs that compliment each other, and hope for the best. In every litter, no matter what the pedigree, there will be offspring that are NOT worthy of breeding. That is where breeding becomes an art; selecting and proving individual dogs on the basis of health, temperament, and ability. Out of a litter, you may have only one or two pups that grow up to be breedworthy. You're right that some breeders only care about winning in the conformation ring, and I would not consider them ethical or responsible. But most of the breeders here, on this forum, go to great lengths to insure their breeding stock is worthy--that means conformation, temperament, ability tested by health testing, conformation shows, AND working trials, as well as living with the dog 24/7 and understanding its true nature in all situations. They care deeply about the health and integrity of the breed, and you insult them with your diatribe.


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## Lakl

Freestep said:


> No responsible, ethical breeder is going to breed a dog with bad temperament, no matter what the pedigree. Only backyard breeders do that.
> 
> Breeding is always a crapshoot; you breed the best to the best, dogs that compliment each other, and hope for the best. In every litter, no matter what the pedigree, there will be offspring that are NOT worthy of breeding. That is where breeding becomes an art; selecting and proving individual dogs on the basis of health, temperament, and ability. Out of a litter, you may have only one or two pups that grow up to be breedworthy. You're right that some breeders only care about winning in the conformation ring, and I would not consider them ethical or responsible. But most of the breeders here, on this forum, go to great lengths to insure their breeding stock is worthy--that means conformation, temperament, ability tested by health testing, conformation shows, AND working trials, as well as living with the dog 24/7 and understanding its true nature in all situations. They care deeply about the health and integrity of the breed, and you insult them with your diatribe.


Thank you! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## ayoitzrimz

lmlloyd said:


> If there is one thing I've learned, it is that all you have to do to be "rude" on the Internet, is say something someone doesn't like.
> 
> I certainly see no shortage of people on this site who have no problem being less than cordial to others, when they think they are standing on the moral high ground. None the less, it was not my intention to be rude, nor was it my intention to complain about some sort of elitist attitude, as you seem to think.
> 
> I just happen to think, and this is based on 30 years of owning dogs (both with papers and without), not just a SINGLE bad experience as you put it, that kennel clubs, breeders aiming for rigid club standards, and an obsession with pedigrees and awards, has done more harm than good to most popular breeds in this country. Surely I am not the first person you have ever encountered with this belief. It is actually a fairly common sentiment, among the sort of dog owners who don't go to shows, or compete in events.
> 
> If you want me to put it as neutrally as possible, so as not to be rude, there is very little scientific evidence that dogs from pedigreed pairings are healthier, happier, live longer, have better temperaments, or fewer congenital defects, than random pairings. If anything, genetics tells us that as a rule, diversity is good, and statistically speaking, you are less likely to see inherited diseases in mutts, than in purebred animals. Furthermore, the vast majority of even the best breeders, base their breeding decisions on methods of animal husbandry that would be seen as positively archaic by modern livestock standards. Hardly any, for example, do any genetic testing at all, to actually screen for defects or problems. There is very little scientific basis to the idea that because your stud won an award at a show, and my bitch won an award at a show, then mating them will produce superior offspring.
> 
> If genetics actually worked that way, then humanity would probably still be ruled by hereditary lineage. Genetics tends towards the mean. Regardless of species, two exceptional parents, are unlikely to produce an offspring as exceptional as they are, much less more exceptional. Their offspring will most likely be above average, but slightly less above average than the parents. Carry this over generation after generation, in an animal with relatively large litters, and you are guaranteeing mediocrity.
> 
> In all reality, award-winning pedigrees aren't any different that saying "all my friends think I have a great dog, and everyone thinks you have a great dog, so they should breed. Neither of them have ever had any health problems, so why not?" Of course, that is the attitude of the 'backyard breeder,' who is so reviled anywhere people brag about the papers their dogs carry. However, just change "my friends" with "contest judges" and swap "everyone" with a kennel club, and that is about the scientific basis for a large number of pedigree breeders.
> 
> I hope that more fully explains my position. And to make it clear, I don't particularly consider it polite, to tell someone that their wonderful and healthy dog, doesn't deserve to breed, just because it hasn't earned the approval of a club of people who have their own ideas about what makes a worthwhile dog. I of course know that those people will point to the medical problems that my dog had, and see that as validation that their standards are right, but of course, to do that, they have to just ignore the dangerous dog with a bad temperament, who ended up hurting someone, despite being the product of exactly the sort of pairing they advocate.


Just one more thing... breeding selection isn't everything. Things like aggression, behavior, and even seemingly genetic issues like HD etc are equally caused by upbringing and ownership... just saying, its not all in the genetics...


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## Lakl

ayoitzrimz said:


> Just one more thing... breeding selection isn't everything. Things like aggression, behavior, and even seemingly genetic issues like HD etc are equally caused by upbringing and ownership... just saying, its not all in the genetics...


*Equally??* NO WAY. Can contribute or influence? I would agree to. 

If this is this case, tell me why my 3 yr female who has been HEAVILY socialized, been to multiple training classes, and even seen a behaviorist is still on edge around the most simple things. People coming over, strange dogs, loud noises, you name it, and her hair will stand on end and she will either react in loud, crazy barking or run for her life.

My 18 month old male never went to a single class and could not get out much because of his severe hip issues as a puppy, and nothing phases him. Not new people, strange dogs, fireworks, or gunshots. To this day I've never seen him startled at anything. Things he's unsure about gets a head tilt and then he moves in for closer examination.

THAT is genetics. And you can't CHANGE it, you can only MANAGE it.


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## wolfstraum

Just took a break from Dr Who and started reading this thread.......OH so MANY things to which I want to respond!!!!

First off - while there are certain points with which I agree regarding the fallacy of dog shows being a good breeding test etc- my conclusions are ABSOLUTELY opposite!!!! I also feel that there are so called "reputable" breeders who will breed poor tempered animals because their evaluation of some other factor - color, gait, expression, angulation or even in working - extreme drive - whatever - is of much higher priority and that breeders goal is to win in the venue of chosen sport....sorry- but I have known several ASL breeders who took that route - one using a very pathetic fearful female - one I felt so sorry for because of her fear - but they overlooked it because of her extreme angulation and sidegait.

Secondly - as far as linebreeding.....if you choose to linebreed - you have to know the pros and cons of the animal being linebred upon!!!!!!! People look at pedigrees and say it has to be good because the dog is bred on Sieger or Ex Sel or BSP dog 3, 5, 5 - 4,4,5 - but they cannot say what good and bad traits are being brought forward - or they know Dog C is known for GoodXXXX and don't want to hear that Bad ZZZZ is equally as possible.

Also, backmassing is another issue most people ignore.....if it is off the first 5 generations, they don't want to think about it.....find someone objective to talk about Lance of Fran Jo - or Jeck Noricum.....health issues, hip problems....but there is not a good statistical analysis possible to quote on these - just antedoctal information and observation. 

A kennel which for generations has only their own captive genetic program with no evidence of testing for health temperament,workability etc....frankly, that is a commercial pet kennel....JMHO.....sure, there will be nice pets but it is really a crap shoot of what you will produce that way....you are not testing for even minimal standards of temperament when you have a dozen (+/-) dogs on site and you just produce litters for the pet market.

Line breeding is almost unavoidable in today's world - I personally have striven to have and combine certain lines - with the goal of eventually doing a line breeding on a specific dog.....for that purpose I purchased a female puppy at 8 weeks from Germany who is a granddaughter of that dog. I know his negatives, and his positives.....the biggest negative is dog aggression - which is not a plus, but with knowledge, something that can be dealt with in training, and other than direct progeny, I am not seeing that in dozen or more 2nd and 3rd generation dogs from him.....THAT is the kind of information and personal experience your breeder should have of pedigrees and breedings BEFORE they do a mating.

Lee





1


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## Lakl

:thumbup::thumbup: I wish there was a Super Like button for this post!


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## Emoore

Emoore said:


> Okay then. I agree there's a surplus, by the way.


To clarify: there is a surplus of dogs needing homes. There is a sad dearth of well-bred, strong-nerved, healthy, appropriately aggressive, thinking German Shepherds with the temperament and drive to work _and_ be family dogs. This is why I support good breeders, as well as shelter and rescue adoption. If you want a family dog to fill your home with love, a shelter or rescue dog is a great way to go. If you want a German Shepherd that is everything a GSD should be, you can definitely find them in shelters or rescue, but by and large your most certain bet is going through a good breeder.


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## wolfstraum

Lakl said:


> :thumbup::thumbup: I wish there was a Super Like button for this post!



Mine??????


Lee


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## Lakl

wolfstraum said:


> Mine??????
> 
> 
> Lee


Well, heck YEA!! Lol.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Everything I want to say has already been stated. 


OP, Please heed the advice and don't breed your pet quality dog. I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and would like my social life back. Shelters are killing purebred GSDs with the personality you described and more every single day. If you're not breeding responsibly, you have no idea what will happen to the pups you bring into this world and the pups those pups produce, etc, etc.


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## wolfstraum

Emoore said:


> To clarify: there is a surplus of dogs needing homes. There is a sad dearth of well-bred, strong-nerved, healthy, appropriately aggressive, thinking German Shepherds with the temperament and drive to work _and_ be family dogs. This is why I support good breeders, as well as shelter and rescue adoption. If you want a family dog to fill your home with love, a shelter or rescue dog is a great way to go. If you want a German Shepherd that is everything a GSD should be, you can definitely find them in shelters or rescue, but by and large your most certain bet is going through a good breeder.



Well said.

As a breeder - I want a stable, healthy companion dog with whom I can enjoy any sport endeavor - I want to share my home with a dog who is protective but not dangerous. I want a dog who I can take anywhere, work anywhere, and who is a loving companion. THAT is what I breed for...what every responsible caring breeder should breed for....it breaks my heart every time I see a GSD on a death row plea....and I condemn those greedy breeders who don't care where they sell pups and produce them for the sake of making money without a true passion for the breed and goals of producing as close to an ideal GSD as they can.....I send people to rescue all the time...I just get so sad when I see all these people who just want to breed without really knowing what they are doing to their dog, the breed and the future pups they will produce......

But really - why should people who buy puppies want less than I want???? The only way to get that is to go to a breeder who has a passion and knowledge. 

Lee


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> This article proves my point regarding the importance of understanding the genetics of the dogs they are breeding and not just the titles. The author is also looping one specific line, the showline, into an entire breed of dogs. He doesnt like German Shepherds because he is only familiar with one particular line. A bit biased if you ask me. That particular line is also discussed in the thread I posted as well. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make a sweeping judgement.


It seems you not only completely missed the point of the article, but also continue to attribute to me a lack of understanding, simply because I do not agree with you. It is perfectly possible for two informed, rational people, to come to different conclusions, based on the same information. You seem to be of the mistaken impression that anyone, knowing what you know, would come to the same conclusion you did, and therefore anyone who does not agree with you, must be ignorant. That is a false formulation, and assumes that you are the sole arbiter of what a "fact" is in this discussion.

If you really want to talk about genetics, the German Shepherd, being a relatively new, and wholly artificial breed, is a perfect case (if you step away from the kennel club world view) for introduction of genetics from other breeds, to get back to the spirit and intent of the original German Shepherd standardization, and clear out some of the genetic damage done by centuries of inbreeding. Of course, this would disqualify the dog, and probably all future offspring, from competition by today's rules, so no professional breeder concerned with pedigrees and awards, is going to do that.

I understand that many breeders are heavily invested, both emotionally and financially, in defending the system as it stands now, but that is not validation of the system, that is defense of it. There is no special genetics of breeding dogs. Genetics are genetics, and there is just genetics. It works the same for all animals, and it is just a scientific fact that concepts like 'the virtue of purity' and 'superior bloodlines' are holdovers from the pre-genetic era, before we actually understood how genetics worked. You never strengthen a gene pool by restricting it. The smaller the gene pool, the more fragile the gene pool. Introducing diversity, is the only way to correct the effects of inbreeding in a restricted gene pool.

Any attempt to "breed out" undesirable traits in a limited gene pool, which does not include introducing genetic diversity from a different gene pool, is ultimately doomed to fail, no matter how thorough, passionate or well-meaning the breeder might be. That is not some failing of the breeder, it is just the genetics of a restricted population. It is the 21st century. If we want animals with particular desirable traits, or without particular undesirable traits, it is possible to engineer those traits, without relying on archaic bloodlines, making the animals dance in front of a panel of judges, and deciding breeding rights by how many trophies are on a shelf.


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## Lakl

Again...it appears you are only discussing Showlines. You are aware that there are several different lines of the German Shepherd right? Are you aware that there are many, many German Shepherd breeders that don't touch the lines of genetics you are talking about? Are you aware that generally, showline breeders and Workingline breeders are basically producing dogs with goals on differing sides of the spectrum from each other, and most Workingline breeders could care less how their dogs perform under a showline judge because it'll never happen? It doesn't appear so, as the person that wrote that article doesn't appear to know either. It is great to have knowledge about genetics, but don't you think you should also have knowledge about the breed itself before you attempt to loop an entire breed into one category??


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## lmlloyd

Freestep said:


> No responsible, ethical breeder is going to breed a dog with bad temperament, no matter what the pedigree. Only backyard breeders do that.


That is a specious argument. I never said that a breeder would intentionally breed and animal with a "bad temperament." However, you know as well as I do that two dogs with "good temperaments" are perfectly capable of producing an offspring with a "bad temperament." If, by the way, you wonder why I keep putting that in quotes, it is because it isn't exactly as though absolutely every breeder means the same thing when they determine a dog has a "good temperament." A breeder raising dogs primarily intended for Schutzhund, might not have exactly the same ideas as to what constitutes a "good temperament" as a breeder specializing in service dogs.



Freestep said:


> Breeding is always a crapshoot; you breed the best to the best, dogs that compliment each other, and hope for the best. In every litter, no matter what the pedigree, there will be offspring that are NOT worthy of breeding. That is where breeding becomes an art; selecting and proving individual dogs on the basis of health, temperament, and ability. Out of a litter, you may have only one or two pups that grow up to be breedworthy. You're right that some breeders only care about winning in the conformation ring, and I would not consider them ethical or responsible. But most of the breeders here, on this forum, go to great lengths to insure their breeding stock is worthy--that means conformation, temperament, ability tested by health testing, conformation shows, AND working trials, as well as living with the dog 24/7 and understanding its true nature in all situations.


And that is exactly my point. Genetics isn't an art, it is a science. If you want a strain of rice that can withstand colder temperatures, you don't keep trying to raise the same strain of rice in colder and colder climates, and talk about the art of rice growing, while your crop dies. You cross that rice with a different strain that is more cold resistant, or perhaps even engineer the rice with genes from a different plant entirely. Yes, there is always genetic variation, but it is hardly a "crapshoot," as you put it. We live in an era where we don't have to rely on whether an animal looks or acts as though it is carrying a genetic marker that will lead to congenital defects. We can actually research it, and develop tests to know for sure. If there is no test, it is only because there is no market for it, because people would rather take a crapshoot on the art of breeding, instead of looking to the science of genetics.



Freestep said:


> They care deeply about the health and integrity of the breed, and you insult them with your diatribe.


You know what, that is now the second time someone on this forum has told that I need to change my understanding of genetics, because it is rude or insulting to breeders to be too concerned with the realities of the science. You do realize that being really earnest and passionate about something, doesn't automatically make you right, don't you? Neither how much they care, nor whether what I say insults them, have anything at all to do with the validity of any argument on either side. In case I haven't made it clear yet, it is just a genetic fact, that you have to pick between either being concerned with the health of the breed, OR the integrity of the breed. The two goals are at cross purposes. It is inherently unhealthy for a breed to restrict its gene pool (maintain integrity) to a relatively small number of breeding partners, all stemming from a single family line, originating less than 150 years ago. That is not enough genetic diversity to sustain a healthy population, no matter how curated that population might be.


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> Again...it appears you are only discussing Showlines. You are aware that there are several different lines of the German Shepherd right? Are you aware that there are many, many German Shepherd breeders that don't touch the lines of genetics you are talking about? Are you aware that generally, showline breeders and Workingline breeders are basically producing dogs with goals on differing sides of the spectrum from each other, and most Workingline breeders could care less how their dogs perform under a showline judge because it'll never happen? It doesn't appear so, as the person that wrote that article doesn't appear to know either. It is great to have knowledge about genetics, but don't you think you should also have knowledge about the breed itself before you attempt to loop an entire breed into one category??



You keep saying that. Would you then like to give me the name of a breeder who follows Captain Max von Stephanitz practice of reintroducing non-German Shepherds hearding breeds to the line, to minimize genetic defects? To my knowledge, I have yet to find an American breeder who proudly advertises that their dogs, working or not, have non-German Shepherd blood in them.


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## Lakl

lmlloyd said:


> You keep saying that. Would you then like to give me the name of a breeder who follows Captain Max von Stephanitz practice of reintroducing non-German Shepherds hearding breeds to the line, to minimize genetic defects? To my knowledge, I have yet to find an American breeder who proudly advertises that their dogs, working or not, have non-German Shepherd blood in them.


What you are saying, no matter how valid it sounds to YOU, is that these breeders who have been doing it for 30 years or more have no clue about genetics and really can't produce a sound, healthy German shepherd right?? Cause that's what it sounds like you're saying to me. You keep referring to how they are breeding to win in the ring and prance around and what not. What ring are you referring to?? Why don't you look in the ACTUAL bloodlines instead of boasting knowledge from an article in Discovery magazine??


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## lmlloyd

Emoore said:


> To clarify: there is a surplus of dogs needing homes. There is a sad dearth of well-bred, strong-nerved, healthy, appropriately aggressive, thinking German Shepherds with the temperament and drive to work _and_ be family dogs. This is why I support good breeders, as well as shelter and rescue adoption. If you want a family dog to fill your home with love, a shelter or rescue dog is a great way to go. If you want a German Shepherd that is everything a GSD should be, you can definitely find them in shelters or rescue, but by and large your most certain bet is going through a good breeder.


I don't disagree with what your saying. I think the issue, however, is what makes a good breeder? It is of course anecdotal, and by no means definitive, but it has been at least 20 years since I personally met a German Shepherd who wasn't a great dog... except... insert some serious flaw here. I've met German Shepherds that were great, except they had no drive, or great German Shepherds, except they were nervous, or except they had digestive problems, or aggression issues, or hip problems, or neurological problems, or a weak immune system, or... the list goes on. I honestly cannot remember the last time I met a German Shepherd that was just an all-around great dog, that came with no qualifiers, and no warnings, even though growing up, everyone I knew had German Shepherds like that.

I know, as someone has already said here, that the popular answer is that it isn't the dogs, it is the owners, but I don't entirely buy that. There has never been a time in American history where people were more informed, more interested, and more serious about humane treatment of animals. I find it difficult to swallow that the problem is a rash of people mistreating their animals, when all evidence would suggest that people are far more responsible owners than they have ever been in the history of this country.


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## Emoore

lmlloyd said:


> I don't disagree with what your saying. I think the issue, however, is what makes a good breeder? It is of course anecdotal, and by no means definitive, but it has been at least 20 years since I personally met a German Shepherd who wasn't a great dog... except... insert some serious flaw here.


Come to Texas and meet my East German boy. He's wonderful. Everything. . . and I do mean everything. . . a GSD should be. Then we'll go over to Danielle's house and meet Circe and Otto. They're an East German/West German Working and a West German Working/Show Line, respectively. After lunch we'll go to Josie's house and meet Koda. He's a West German Showline from Alta-tollhaus. All these dogs are healthy, with good hips and elbows, incorruptible temperament, appropriately protective, excellent with children, social yet aloof.

We all have different experiences and I see that yours have been different than mine. I've worked in rescue for a decade and fostered and re-homed over 30 dogs. In my personal experience, there is a huge difference between a well-bred Shepherd from a discerning breeder, and a rescue/shelter dog. After owning my East German male, I will have a hard time going back to shelter dogs.


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> What you are saying, no matter how valid it sounds to YOU, is that these breeders who have been doing it for 30 years or more have no clue about genetics and really can't produce a sound, healthy German shepherd right?? Cause that's what it sounds like you're saying to me. You keep referring to how they are breeding to win in the ring and prance around and what not. What ring are you referring to?? Why don't you look in the ACTUAL bloodlines instead of boasting knowledge from an article in Discovery magazine??


I am sure there are good breeders out there, however, doing it for a long time, loving it, being passionate about it, and thinking you are doing it well, doesn't prove you are doing it well. As I have said multiple times, breeding ANY animal, to conform to an arbitrary list of traits, pulling from a restricted set of bloodlines, and specifically forbidding genetic diversity, is a bad methodology for producing a healthy gene pool.

If you insist on being combative, and purposely obtuse, then you leave me no choice but to speak to you as though you are not actually capable of understanding what I am saying. When I say things like "dance in front of a panel of judges" that is what's called a metaphor. It could imply any sort of arbitrary competition to win approval of a group of people who rate your performance. It is what is often reffed to, once again metaphorically, as a "dog and pony show," even though there might not literally be dogs or ponies present. This could be Schutzhund, agility, herding, or other competitions, as well as yes, dog shows. The point is, the base theory, that being good at some form of competition, somehow makes a dog a better genetic match for another dog good at competitions, is quite nonsensical. It is like saying that the path to a better human race, is making sure that to earn breeding rights, you should have to be an NFL quarterback, supermodel, rodeo star, or American Idol winner, because that is the only way to prove your are healthy, and a credit to the race.


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## Lakl

lmlloyd said:


> I am sure there are good breeders out there, however, doing it for a long time, loving it, being passionate about it, and thinking you are doing it well, doesn't prove you are doing it well. As I have said multiple times, breeding ANY animal, to conform to an arbitrary list of traits, pulling from a restricted set of bloodlines, and specifically forbidding genetic diversity, is a bad methodology for producing a healthy gene pool.
> 
> If you insist on being combative, and purposely obtuse, then you leave me no choice but to speak to you as though you are not actually capable of understanding what I am saying. When I say things like "dance in front of a panel of judges" that is what's called a metaphor. It could imply any sort of arbitrary competition to win approval of a group of people who rate your performance. It is what is often reffed to, once again metaphorically, as a "dog and pony show," even though there might not literally be dogs or ponies present. This could be Schutzhund, agility, herding, or other competitions, as well as yes, dog shows. The point is, the base theory, that being good at some form of competition, somehow makes a dog a better genetic match for another dog good at competitions, is quite nonsensical. It is like saying that the path to a better human race, is making sure that to earn breeding rights, you should have to be an NFL quarterback, supermodel, rodeo star, or American Idol winner, because that is the only way to prove your are healthy, and a credit to the race.


I'm just gonna ignore your insult at my intelligence since its pointless and doesn't sway your argument. You said, "The point is, the base theory, that being good at some form of competition, somehow makes a dog a better genetic match for another dog good at competitions, is quite nonsensical."

The point is that that is just ONE factor of many that GOOD breeders take into account when breeding these dogs, and I'm pretty sure they don't need you tell them that. Did you not read Wolfstraum's post at all??


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## Freestep

lmlloyd said:


> And that is exactly my point. Genetics isn't an art, it is a science. If you want a strain of rice that can withstand colder temperatures, you don't keep trying to raise the same strain of rice in colder and colder climates, and talk about the art of rice growing, while your crop dies. You cross that rice with a different strain that is more cold resistant, or perhaps even engineer the rice with genes from a different plant entirely. Yes, there is always genetic variation, but it is hardly a "crapshoot," as you put it.


But science doesn't know EVERYTHING about genetics. We have identified certain markers that we can test for, but beyond that, we can't genetically engineer a dog. Therefore, we must go by the phenotype that we see, the genotype that we know exists, do the best we can with what we know, and cross our fingers.



> In case I haven't made it clear yet, it is just a genetic fact, that you have to pick between either being concerned with the health of the breed, OR the integrity of the breed. The two goals are at cross purposes. It is inherently unhealthy for a breed to restrict its gene pool (maintain integrity) to a relatively small number of breeding partners, all stemming from a single family line, originating less than 150 years ago. That is not enough genetic diversity to sustain a healthy population, no matter how curated that population might be.


It sounds like you are against purebreds, period. You will be happy to know that there are people who are outcrossing dogs in order to acheive a certain working purpose. There are some that are using a crossbreeding program for guide dogs, police dogs, sniffer dogs, etc. As to your belief that purebreds are categorically bad, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Since we can't genetically engineer a dog at this point, we'll have to stick to the archaic practice of selective breeding, linebreeding to set certain traits, and testing to identify the markers we do know.


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## lmlloyd

Emoore said:


> Come to Texas and meet my East German boy. He's wonderful. Everything. . . and I do mean everything. . . a GSD should be. Then we'll go over to Danielle's house and meet Circe and Otto. They're an East German/West German Working and a West German Working/Show Line, respectively. After lunch we'll go to Josie's house and meet Koda. He's a West German Showline from Alta-tollhaus. All these dogs are healthy, with good hips and elbows, incorruptible temperament, appropriately protective, excellent with children, social yet aloof.
> 
> We all have different experiences and I see that yours have been different than mine. I've worked in rescue for a decade and fostered and re-homed over 30 dogs. In my personal experience, there is a huge difference between a well-bred Shepherd from a discerning breeder, and a rescue/shelter dog. After owning my East German male, I will have a hard time going back to shelter dogs.


My big problem, is how many "well bred" dogs ARE in shelters. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who thinks that breeding should be illegal, and that everyone should have to get a dog from the shelter. In fact, I've only had one shelter dog in my entire life. Most of my dogs have been from breeders, a couple have been spare dogs straight off of ranches.

However, it seems to me that there are an awful lot of breeders out there (many of whom I know are well respected in some circles), who are all too happy to unload their less than wonderful specimens, as pets, thinking it specifically doesn't matter if they aren't champion material, since it is 'just' a pet, not a working or competition dog. A lot of those dogs end up in shelters, because they are even LESS suited to being pets, than they are to being competition or working dogs. What's worse, is with the current attitude among some breeders, they end up blaming the person they sold the dog to, rather than honestly thinking about whether they should have sold the dog as a pet in the first place. This just makes the owner feel like they are not good for the dog, thus making it even MORE likely they will take it to a shelter.

If you will bear with me, let me give you a completely anecdotal example, but one sadly indicative of a story I heard all too often while trying to find solutions to my own dog problems. I have some friends with children. They figured their sons were old enough to have a dog, and wanted them to have a German Shepherd, like the father did growing up. They found what they were told was a reputable breeder (I will not name anyone), and spent a couple thousand dollars on a dog that they were assured would be a fantastic family dog, and a great companion. Time went by, and they had several problems with the dog. They went to a trainer of some national renowned, tried to work with the dog, but the dog was never really comfortable around the children. Eventually, the dog attacked one of the children, sending him to the hospital, and requiring stitches. They decided the dog had to go, but wanted to be responsible, so contacted the breeder, to see if something could be worked out to find a new home for the dog, since it wasn't even 2 years-old yet. The breeder proceeded to tell them that the dog's behavior problems were their fault, because the dog was meant to compete, and they had caused the problem by not giving the dog a job to do! After all the local German Shepherd rescues told the family that there were fees (as much as $1,200) for rehabilitating an aggressive dog, that $2,000 pedigreed dog, ended up at a shelter.

Why then, I have to ask, did the breeder sell them the dog in the first place? If the breeder knew that his dogs could become aggressive if they were not working dogs or competition dogs, why sell it to a family looking for a pet to begin with? However, more to the point, is there really such a shortage of dogs out there, that the world is in need of a line of dogs so unstable, that they turn violent if you don't give them the right kind of exercise? I would argue that, no matter how well that particular breeder's dogs perform in their respective areas of competition, the world isn't really hurting for dogs that attack children when they are bored.

This, and a disturbing number of additional stories I heard from several other owners, while we went though our own nightmare of dealing with a dog with serious temperament problems, causes me to think very differently about breeder culture in America.


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## lmlloyd

Freestep said:


> But science doesn't know EVERYTHING about genetics. We have identified certain markers that we can test for, but beyond that, we can't genetically engineer a dog. Therefore, we must go by the phenotype that we see, the genotype that we know exists, do the best we can with what we know, and cross our fingers.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are against purebreds, period. You will be happy to know that there are people who are outcrossing dogs in order to acheive a certain working purpose. There are some that are using a crossbreeding program for guide dogs, police dogs, sniffer dogs, etc. As to your belief that purebreds are categorically bad, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Since we can't genetically engineer a dog at this point, we'll have to stick to the archaic practice of selective breeding, linebreeding to set certain traits, and testing to identify the markers we do know.


I think that purebreeds present problems. I am not saying I am categorically against purebreeds, just that I do not think it is the best practice for an optimal balance of desired traits and health. What is ironic, however, is this is the exact same line of thinking that led to the creation of the German Shepherd to begin with. Let's be clear, the German Shepherd is not an Akita, with thousands of years of heritage. It is an artificial standard, that was chosen based on qualities desirable in a dog, and composed, initially, of a diverse and undetermined genetic makeup. This is exactly why I find it particularly odd that there is such a focus on "purity" and bloodlines.

I see no reason to believe that other breeds could not be introduced to the line (as was the case at the start of the breed), to enhance and strengthen the desired traits, while undoing some of the damage excessive inbreeding has caused.


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## Josie/Zeus

This is a great example when puppy placement go wrong. Breeders makes their decision based what the buyers want, but mostly the buyers don't really know what they are getting into. 

I have a 3.5 yr old son, he is taught to respect the dog and cat. Koda will never hurt him but what do I know, Koda is a dog, so both are supervised at all times together.


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## Freestep

lmlloyd said:


> I see no reason to believe that other breeds could not be introduced to the line (as was the case at the start of the breed), to enhance and strengthen the desired traits, while undoing some of the damage excessive inbreeding has caused.


Then you open a whole 'nuther can of worms.

You'll be happy to know that some people are already doing this. The GSD has been crossed with all kinds of other breeds to "improve" it. Unfortunately, most of these attempts have simply introduced more problems. King Shepherds, Shiloh Shepherds, Czech Wolfdogs, etc. are not particularly known for good temperament and health.


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## Lakl

This topic should really be in its own thread, because the members that could pipe in on the whole genetics and breed itself discussion and offer some valuable input are not going to look here because of the title of the thread.

Lmlloyd - perhaps you should start a new thread that addresses your concerns and viewpoint on where the breed is at and heading? I think it would bring for a more balanced discussion if more of our breeding and pedigree gurus were involved?


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## lmlloyd

Josie/Zeus said:


> This is a great example when puppy placement go wrong. Breeders makes their decision based what the buyers want, but mostly the buyers don't really know what they are getting into.
> 
> I have a 3.5 yr old son, he is taught to respect the dog and cat. Koda will never hurt him but what do I know, Koda is a dog, so both are supervised at all times together.


But see, that's part of my problem. When did German Shepherds change so much that someone who grew up around them, "didn't know what they were getting into?"

I have to stress, I've known the father since we went to high school together, and the only reason he didn't have a German Shepherd already, was he wanted to wait until the kids were old enough to take care of it. This wasn't some guy who went from a terrier to a German Shepherd, this was a guy who's whole life could be measured in how many German Shepherds he had owned. This is exactly the sort of "the breeder knows what they're doing, it us always the family who is doing something wrong" attitude that I find disturbing.

Maybe you are right, maybe it is never safe to leave a a modern American German Shepherd alone with a child. If that is true, that is a sadder statement about the degeneration of the breed than anything I've said. When I was growing up in Houston, German Shepherds were practically furry babysitters. I never had one as a kid, because my mom would never let me have a dog that big, but all my friends with yards had German Shepherds, and no one I ever met, thought of them as a breed you should never leave unsupervised with a child.


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## Emoore

lmlloyd said:


> Maybe you are right, maybe it is never safe to leave a a modern American German Shepherd alone with a child. If that is true, that is a sadder statement about the degeneration of the breed than anything I've said. When I was growing up in Houston, German Shepherds were practically furry babysitters. I never had one as a kid, because my mom would never let me have a dog that big, but all my friends with yards had German Shepherds, and no one I ever met, thought of them as a breed you should never leave unsupervised with a child.


Dogs and kids should never be left alone together. Period. Less because of the state of the modern GSD, and more because of the state of the modern child. I distinctly remember being 8 or 10 years old and jacking with the dog while he was eating. The dog bit me and I was scolded for bothering an eating dog. These days you kill the dog and sue the breeder, thus teaching the kid he's entitled to treat living animal any way he wants and they just daggum well better take it or die. Honestly, growing up, I don't remember very many kids who _didn't _get bitten/snapped at for doing something stupid, and then got told, "well, that'll teach you to bother the dog."


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## Jax08

> Maybe you are right, maybe it is never safe to leave a a modern American German Shepherd alone with a child.


I don't think Josie/Zeus meant it wasn't safe to leave a modern Am./Ger Shepherd alone with a child. I think she was saying she doesn't leave her toddler unsupervised and most probably because a dog, of ANY breed and ANY size, can attack a child.


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## lmlloyd

Emoore said:


> Dogs and kids should never be left alone together. Period. Less because of the state of the modern GSD, and more because of the state of the modern child. I distinctly remember being 8 or 10 years old and jacking with the dog while he was eating. The dog bit me and I was scolded for bothering an eating dog. These days you kill the dog and sue the breeder, thus teaching the kid he's entitled to treat living animal any way he wants and they just daggum well better take it or die. Honestly, growing up, I don't remember very many kids who _didn't _get bitten/snapped at for doing something stupid, and then got told, "well, that'll teach you to bother the dog."


I don't have kids, so I can't really comment on the state of Children in America. I was always around dogs when I was a kid though, and yeah, I got a couple bites, but never anything serious.


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## msvette2u

> OP, Please heed the advice and don't breed your pet quality dog. I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and would like my social life back. Shelters are killing purebred GSDs with the personality you described and more every single day. If you're not breeding responsibly, you have no idea what will happen to the pups you bring into this world and the pups those pups produce, etc, etc.


:thumbsup:
We're getting another in today. Has been bred, or at least nursed a litter and then dumped, emaciated from the sounds of it, and probably under 1yr. of age.




> Dogs and kids should never be left alone together. Period. Less because of the state of the modern GSD, and more because of the state of the modern child.


Amen to that!!!! Were all parents to have the "sense" our parents did while we were growing up, I'd remove the "no kids under 8-12" on all of our rescued dogs!


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## Lakl

Emoore said:


> Dogs and kids should never be left alone together. Period. Less because of the state of the modern GSD, and more because of the state of the modern child. I distinctly remember being 8 or 10 years old and jacking with the dog while he was eating. The dog bit me and I was scolded for bothering an eating dog. These days you kill the dog and sue the breeder, thus teaching the kid he's entitled to treat living animal any way he wants and they just daggum well better take it or die. Honestly, growing up, I don't remember very many kids who _didn't _get bitten/snapped at for doing something stupid, and then got told, "well, that'll teach you to bother the dog."


Here too. Bit by a German Shepherd when I was 5 because I decided to pet him while he was eating. I got yelled at for it. Now I watch these shows like Animal Cops where they rescue a dog, but if he doesn't pass the plastic hand reaching in your bowl test, then they just go ahead and put him down because he can't be adopted out.


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> This topic should really be in its own thread, because the members that could pipe in on the whole genetics and breed itself discussion and offer some valuable input are not going to look here because of the title of the thread.
> 
> Lmlloyd - perhaps you should start a new thread that addresses your concerns and viewpoint on where the breed is at and heading? I think it would bring for a more balanced discussion if more of our breeding and pedigree gurus were involved?


Honestly, I think the whole genetics thing has run its course. I get it, breeders know more about how to get the most out of a pairing that geneticists do, and if anything goes wrong, it is probably the fault of the person who bought the dog, because breeders are infallible. To say anything else is rude, and if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Pretty clear on where the people on this forum stand now.


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## Lakl

Wow! Ok, if that's what you took out of it. So be it. Perhaps if everyone had said, you're SOOO right Lmlloyd, please tell us more, then this would have been worthy of continuing. I will agree with you on one thing, this conversation is dead and a waste of time. On to better topics...


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## Andaka

> I see no reason to believe that other breeds could not be introduced to the line (as was the case at the start of the breed), to enhance and strengthen the desired traits, while undoing some of the damage excessive inbreeding has caused.


Such as??? What breed would you introduce and to fix what problem?


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## Jax08

Lakl said:


> This topic should really be in its own thread, because the members that could pipe in on the whole genetics and breed itself discussion and offer some valuable input are not going to look here because of the title of the thread.
> 
> Lmlloyd - perhaps you should start a new thread that addresses your concerns and viewpoint on where the breed is at and heading? I think it would bring for a more balanced discussion if more of our breeding and pedigree gurus were involved?





lmlloyd said:


> Honestly, I think the whole genetics thing has run its course. I get it, breeders know more about how to get the most out of a pairing that geneticists do, and if anything goes wrong, it is probably the fault of the person who bought the dog, because breeders are infallible. To say anything else is rude, and if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
> 
> Pretty clear on where the people on this forum stand now.


You really need to read Lakl's post again. She was suggesting starting a new thread on the same topic in a more appropriate section so the more knowledgeable people would see it and contribute.

Not sure how you made the assumption you did to have this response.


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## Lakl

Andaka said:


> Such as??? What breed would you introduce and to fix what problem?


We need more Shepadoodles, I guess!


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## Lakl

Jax08 said:


> You really need to read Lakl's post again. She was suggesting starting a new thread on the same topic in a more appropriate section so the more knowledgeable people would see it and contribute.
> 
> Not sure how you made the assumption you did to have this response.


It's ok, Michelle. If he didn't see that that was honest attempt to delve further into the topic by involving those that actively breed and are more knowledgeable on the genetics of these dogs, then it's gonna be a waste of time to try and sway his viewpoint that this breed is a lost cause.


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## Jax08

Lakl - I was just showing off my stellar reading comprehension! Do I get a gold star?! lol


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## Lakl

Jax08 said:


> Lakl - I was just showing off my stellar reading comprehension! Do I get a gold star?! lol


Lol. 2 Gold Stars!!


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## lmlloyd

Andaka said:


> Such as??? What breed would you introduce and to fix what problem?


I am not proposing any specific remedy to any specific problem, nor do I breed dogs, nor am I announcing some new breeding program I'm starting. I am just saying that in all species of animals, the most proven effective way to reduce genetic expressions of defects, is to introduce diversity. It has worked with endangered birds. It has worked with crops. It has worked with livestock. It has worked at fisheries. I see no rational reason to believe that dogs have uniquely different DNA, that would cause them to need to be bred in some entirely different way, than every other form of life on the planet.


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## lmlloyd

Lakl said:


> It's ok, Michelle. If he didn't see that that was honest attempt to delve further into the topic by involving those that actively breed and are more knowledgeable on the genetics of these dogs, then it's gonna be a waste of time to try and sway his viewpoint that this breed is a lost cause.


Please, I have now been told repeatedly that my views are "rude," "insulting" and "offensive," to breeders. Then you say "hey, why don't you move this conversation over to where more breeders will see it?"

So, I have to ask, is your intention to:

A: Make sure that as many breeders as possible are offended by my rude insults.

or

B: Get me to move the conversation over to a venue where you know more people will jump down my throat, since you haven't been getting the result you would like from telling me that I can't know anything, because I don't agree with you.

Either way, I don't see how I benefit from continuing a conversation that has thus far been typified by a continual reiteration that only a dog breeder can understand what a valuable art dog breeding is, and genetics only matter as a breeders says they matter, so I should just shut up and stop saying insulting things.


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## Jax08

I'll answer for Lakl...she has never shown sneaky, underhanded, tendencies so in my opinion, she was trying to learn more and have more opinions viewpoints in what is a very interesting topic. I'm sure she was thinking of Carmen and Cliff specifically, who both could add very well thought out, intelligent, information that YOU would benefit from.


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## Freestep

lmlloyd said:


> Honestly, I think the whole genetics thing has run its course. I get it, breeders know more about how to get the most out of a pairing that geneticists do, and if anything goes wrong, it is probably the fault of the person who bought the dog, because breeders are infallible. To say anything else is rude, and if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.


That's ludicrous. This forum has a "no breeder bashing" rule (which I don't agree with, but whatever) because if it didn't, you'd see a LOT more posts decrying bad breeding practices. There are a LOT of unethical breeders out there; unfortunately, ethical breeders are in the minority. So no, breeders are not infallible. Even the good ones are not infallible, and no one is saying otherwise. 

I'm beginning to think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and you're simply trying to get peoples' dander up. In other words, a troll. The suggestion to move this conversation to its own thread was made out of a desire to get more people in on the conversation; the original thread title does not let everyone know how the thread has drifted. That's all. To make some malicious intent out of it is ridiculous.


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## wolfstraum

food for thought: dogs are living creatures with feelings, and long life spans. Not grain or food animals - where failed genetic experiments can be destroyed much more easily...what happens to all those pups born of genetic experiments???? Breeding dogs is as much an art as a science. I do feel, or maybe agree is a better word, too many people with too little knowledge, and just downright careless people, produce the majority of dogs and cats born and euthanized in this country, and it is APPALLING and heartbreaking. But breeding solely for genetic diversity by mixing breeds is not the answer - it would just make more mutts with no homes.

Lee


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## lmlloyd

Jax08 said:


> I'll answer for Lakl...she has never shown sneaky, underhanded, tendencies so in my opinion, she was trying to learn more and have more opinions viewpoints in what is a very interesting topic. I'm sure she was thinking of Carmen and Cliff specifically, who both could add very well thought out, intelligent, information that YOU would benefit from.


The problem with that, is that I really have heard it all before. It's not like I've never spoken to a breeder before. It's not like I don't know what their position is. I even read a good portion of the thread it was recommended I read, though it seems to be unbelievable to Lakl that anyone could read that thread, and still have their own opinion that differs.

Arguing with a breeder about the basic concept of breed purity, is like trying to get a Christian to renounce Christ, and convert to Judaism. Their entire world view is centered around the idea that breed purity is a desirable trait. All that will happen, is you will end up mired in the minutia of dogma. It doesn't go anywhere, and no one learns anything, because when it really comes down to it, it is a faith-based position, leaning on tradition, and adopting the parts of modern science that support their world view, while rejecting, ignoring, or being impossibly hyper-critical of anything that causes problems with their world view.

There are entire websites devoted to this argument, and there are many scholarly papers by both geneticists and breeders addressing the subject. There is nothing any breeder in any forum can say, to get around the simple scientific evidence that biodiversity is advantageous to a species. Any argument that tries to support improving the health of a species, by limiting biodiversity, will necessarily include rationalizations and a priori assumptions that have to be taken on faith. That isn't some random opinion I just happen to have, that is the current state of a modern understanding of genetics. If you maintain a small gene pool, and practice selective breeding only within that limited gene pool, you are practicing damage control, not improving the species. That is what genetics has to say about a lack of biodiversity.

Arguing with breeders about breed purity, is no more productive or beneficial to me, than it would be to go to some audiophile website, and argue about $10,000 stereo cables that supposedly improve sound, or some free energy website to argue about perpetual motion machines, or any other group of people who earnestly and wholeheartedly believe in something that is scientifically questionable, to the point of being highly unlikely to be true. I don't have to hear someone's subjective arguments, to look over the research, see the experiments, and read the results. That, to me, speaks a lot louder than someone's passionate defense that they love their dogs, and have been doing this for 30 years, with what they self-assess as good results.

What is a worthwhile conversation, and all I was doing initially, is to talk to the person who isn't sure if they should buy that $10,000 audio cable, and let them know that there is no scientific basis for a special cable making something sound better. Talking to the people who already bought the cable, is a waste of time, because their $10,000 investment, will cause them to skew their perspective.


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## lmlloyd

Freestep said:


> That's ludicrous. This forum has a "no breeder bashing" rule (which I don't agree with, but whatever) because if it didn't, you'd see a LOT more posts decrying bad breeding practices. There are a LOT of unethical breeders out there; unfortunately, ethical breeders are in the minority. So no, breeders are not infallible. Even the good ones are not infallible, and no one is saying otherwise.
> 
> I'm beginning to think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and you're simply trying to get peoples' dander up. In other words, a troll. The suggestion to move this conversation to its own thread was made out of a desire to get more people in on the conversation; the original thread title does not let everyone know how the thread has drifted. That's all. To make some malicious intent out of it is ridiculous.


Ah yes, the troll card.

Oh look, I don't like what he is saying, he must be a troll. I'm amazed it has taken this long for someone to decide that is the best way to deal with a dissenting opinion.

Excuse me, but the overwhelming majority of comments before I posted my one response, were people arguing specifically that no dog should be bred without a pedigree, and some people saying that further than that, a dog should only be bred if there is a specific plan for how it improves the species. How is ANYTHING, I've said, not part of that topic?


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## Chris Wild

There are some excellent points of discussion here, but I think it's time to close this one particular thread. Partly because it is a revival of a year old thread and the current discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread or the title. And partly because people are having some trouble playing nice.

I do think this would make an interesting discussion in the genetics forum, as a separate thread with an accurate heading. If people would like to continue to discuss the topic, and can do so in a civil manner, then please start a new thread.

-Admin


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