# What do you think?



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What do you guys think of this dog? No real reason, just conversation.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you guys think of this dog? No real reason, just conversation.


Trained as dual purpose with supposedly high hunt and ball drive:

Andy is a 17 months old (born Oct.29.2019) GSD male with registered pedigree trained as a dual purpose dog with high ball/hunt drive. He has a great temperament, is social in normal life, good around kids or other social dogs so he might be also as a good family/personal/home protection dog. He has cuted tail of injury which is the only cosmetic thing really, otherwise he is in excellent health conditions and he works very well.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Trained as dual purpose with supposedly high hunt and ball drive:
> 
> Andy is a 17 months old (born Oct.29.2019) GSD male with registered pedigree trained as a dual purpose dog with high ball/hunt drive. He has a great temperament, is social in normal life, good around kids or other social dogs so he might be also as a good family/personal/home protection dog. He has cuted tail of injury which is the only cosmetic thing really, otherwise he is in excellent health conditions and he works very well.


I’m referring to what you see in the video.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m referring to what you see in the video.


He has no tail and you're welcome lol


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> He has no tail and you're welcome lol


😂😂


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I only watched the first minute or so but they always cut the clip before he's outed.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you guys think of this dog? No real reason, just conversation.


something about andy reminds me of cooper here, minus the tail


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I keep watching videos of these trained dogs. I'm not knocking the dog or the trainer, I am only commenting on a video. In the first clip I see a guy dressed like a weirdo walking toward and standing passively in front of a dog that is going bonkers. Why? If that was a threat you could never take that dog through downtown Toronto! Lol. 
I will never understand that send out for protection, but clearly it's a thing. 
I see the dog pulling back a lot but I don't see him pushing in, so really he just wants the sleeve/reward.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm not sure half the dogs trained in personal protection would continue to stand in against a bad guy really swinging a bat.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> In the first clip I see a guy dressed like a weirdo walking toward and standing passively in front of a dog that is going bonkers. Why?


strictly from my own* most rudimentary * perspective now: because that’s what he’s been trained to do on command



Sabis mom said:


> I see the dog pulling back a lot but I don't see him pushing in, so really he just wants the sleeve/reward.


correct, so you train that to hidden sleeve, knowing you’ll never deploy that bite in the private sector unless/until you’ve exhausted every other available option






Force multiplication - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





dog is trained to grab and hold on command while the handler neutralizes the threat









Catch dog - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





"applied herding/hunting"



WNGD said:


> I'm not sure half the dogs trained in personal protection would continue to stand in against a bad guy really swinging a bat.


agreed 100%. As far as I'm aware, the idea is to condition the dog to run the nerf bat gauntlet in order to* convince him *he's totally "batproof." And while the power of "mind over matter" often proves -astonishing- once the adrenaline starts rushing, ultimately it's the job of the handler to protect the dog in such situations. I've only dared express these opinions in hopes someone far more knowlegeable will please educate me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The dogs I worked needed to stay in the fight. The protection training most often seen amounts to a flashy obedience routine. I'm sorry but real world application is entirely different. My dog was all I had. No back-up, no weapons, just me and a dog whose sole purpose was to get me home at the end of the night.
The dog in the video seems a willing, intelligent animal. He clearly enjoys this, but an aggressive dog will push in keeping the pressure on. This dog pulls back wanting his reward. Pain or discomfort may make him let go.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Where is that?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> The dogs I worked needed to stay in the fight. The protection training most often seen amounts to a flashy obedience routine.


I agree but the difference is, you were on the job. Public sector "expert witness" and all that.

no question there are much better dogs, much better methods, etc etc etc



Sabis mom said:


> The dog in the video seems a willing, intelligent animal. He clearly enjoys this, but [ ] pulls back wanting his reward. Pain or discomfort may make him let go.


I couldn't agree more

I'm just talking about joe/jane 6 pack doing the best they can with whatever they've got in the private sector


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The answer is always selection IMO. A mediocre trainer can train a great dog to high standards. A great trainer can train a mediocre dog to mediocre standards.

You can work and build and plan and try to make a dog into something.

Or you can pick the right dog and teach it what not to fight.

I'm talking about working dogs and not sport dogs here.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Where is that?


This is in Europe I believe. I chose this dog because I wanted one with little connection to anyone here, so that certain bias didn’t change what people said or thought. It’s supposed to serve as a randomly chosen dog, which it is for the most part.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I only watched the first minute or so but they always cut the clip before he's outed.


It may be more of a concern if the dog was older and being sold as a more finished product. Most of the dogs I see trained aren’t outer off the sleeve until later in training. It could become an ongoing issue though depending on the dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you guys think of this dog? No real reason, just conversation.


Back to the video.

I like this dog. Good nerves. He's not seen a lot of pressure so it's still a game, which is fine. Missing tail makes me think he's a spinner which can be a problem. Overall, he's a nice looking prospect for work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I keep watching videos of these trained dogs. I'm not knocking the dog or the trainer, I am only commenting on a video. In the first clip I see a guy dressed like a weirdo walking toward and standing passively in front of a dog that is going bonkers. Why? If that was a threat you could never take that dog through downtown Toronto! Lol.
> I will never understand that send out for protection, but clearly it's a thing.
> I see the dog pulling back a lot but I don't see him pushing in, so really he just wants the sleeve/reward.


I wouldn’t put to much stock in how the guy is dressed here. He’s wearing an apron which some people use as protection when they are working on a sleeve. I’m sure the dog knows who this decoy is and what he’s here to do. The aggression here is more of a prey/play type than a dog looking to seriously hurt the decoy. I can’t say how social or sharp this dog is with people from this video. The pulling could be more of a training thing. I believe this dog was started at least in the same way a sport prospect would. There’s different situations I could see the need for sending a protection dog. If I was in a situation where someone had a gun and I thought an attack was imminent, I would send the dog if it was an option. If I came home and someone had broken in, I could see sending the dog. This dog is supposed to be a dual purpose working dog, so being sent could definitely be a part of the job. I don’t think pushing or pulling tells you all that much about a dog wanting to stay in the fight. I think you have to observe the whole picture.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I wouldn’t put to much stock in how the guy is dressed here. He’s wearing an apron which some people use as protection when they are working on a sleeve. I’m sure the dog knows who this decoy is and what he’s here to do. The aggression here is more of a prey/play type than a dog looking to seriously hurt the decoy. I can’t say how social or sharp this dog is with people from this video. The pulling could be more of a training thing. I believe this dog was started at least in the same way a sport prospect would. There’s different situations I could see the need for sending a protection dog. If I was in a situation where someone had a gun and I thought an attack was imminent, I would send the dog if it was an option. If I came home and someone had broken in, I could see sending the dog. This dog is supposed to be a dual purpose working dog, so being sent could definitely be a part of the job. I don’t think pushing or pulling tells you all that much about a dog wanting to stay in the fight. I think you have to observe the whole picture.


Most dogs pull unless trained otherwise when working in prey. Things can change when the fight gets more real.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Back to the video.
> 
> I like this dog. Good nerves. He's not seen a lot of pressure so it's still a game, which is fine. Missing tail makes me think he's a spinner which can be a problem. Overall, he's a nice looking prospect for work.


I feel the same. The dog looks to be environmentally good, but the decoy doesn’t offer a lot of fight or pressure from what I see. I think he shows good drive.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

I just got a question regarding hunt drive and not specific to video. So, if I'm out of line here @Bearshandler just let me know; I just didn't want to start a new thread.

Here is what @David Winners mentioned in another thread, regarding hunt drive, and was hoping someone could expand on it a bit:

_"Valor is just 8 months. He's looking like he would be a fantastic MIL/LE dog. Loads of confidence. *His hunt drive is extreme (12 minutes running hard on a search with no handler intervention)*. Great handler focus. Very forward when suspicious." _- David Winners 

Someone told me that their dog wouldn't quit looking for stick when it was thrown and got stuck in a tree. A couple hours later, he had to physically go and get the dog ? 

He called this German Shepherd a 10+ on a scale of 0 - 10 for hunt drive.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

missing tail makes me think he's a rott cross and they docked him in the whelpingbox




David Winners said:


> I'm talking about working dogs and not sport dogs here.


again, rudimentarily speaking, I think there's quite a bit of overlap between the two. I'm certainly not suggesting lackland deploy "sportdogs" to syria, I'm only saying the avg schH 1 is more than enough "protection dog" for most owners.

furthermore I'm not trying to convince anyone else that I'm "right" about any of this. I'm just trying to explain why I think and say all the "wrong" things that I so often do around here.






top tier gsd folk look at that and see weak dogs, but I look at that and see _more than enough_ dog for me personally


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> I just got a question regarding hunt drive and not specific to video. So, if I'm out of line here @Bearshandler just let me know; I just didn't want to start a new thread.
> 
> Here is what @David Winners mentioned in another thread, regarding hunt drive, and was hoping someone could expand on it a bit:
> 
> ...


That is impressive in some ways. 
Will the same dog actively search for that same amount of time? 

I got a bumper stuck in a tree. Valor spotted it, jumped up on a picnic table and would not leave it. I didn't try a formal recall because I wasn't sure he would comply. I had to leash him and walk away. 

What I want to see for detection is active searching that is rewarding to the dog that has duration limited by the physical condition of the dog, not attention span. If the dog in the example will search until it can't close its mouth to sniff, I'll take him in a heartbeat.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> missing tail makes me think he's a rott cross and they docked him in the whelpingbox
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing in that video resembles protection. The dogs look away from the decoy to the handler all the time. If that is more than enough, any dog with a modicum of prey drive will suffice.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> That is impressive in some ways.
> Will the same dog actively search for that same amount of time?
> 
> I got a bumper stuck in a tree. Valor spotted it, jumped up on a picnic table and would not leave it. I didn't try a formal recall because I wasn't sure he would comply. I had to leash him and walk away.
> ...


Well, it might have been BS too. I'm not sure. I don't know him personally other than online.

I guess what had me curious about your quote was that you said, _"(12 minutes running hard on a search with no handler intervention)"._

Is this a good test to determine "hunt drive". I mean I know you know your dog and have seen a ton of other dogs to compare to. When you say 12 minutes is extreme hunt, meaning 10+, how does nine or ten minutes fall into that scale ?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> What I want to see for detection is active searching that is rewarding to the dog that has duration limited by the physical condition of the dog, not attention span. If the dog in the example will search until it can't close its mouth to sniff, I'll take him in a heartbeat.


I should have started another thread. Sorry @Bearshandler 

When I said 9 - 10 minutes, in my last post, that is an out of shape dog coming out of winter lol

I could post a video of what I'm talking about. Just tell me to start a new thread or post here?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

12 minutes searching full blast for a puppy is substantial. 12 minutes is far longer than most police dogs spend on a detection search. Many on leash detection dogs need regular handler direction after a search goes on beyond their attention span (a few minutes). 

Respiration rate increases dramatically (200 bpm) when sniffing, so the dog loses oxygenation during a search. This also causes discomfort. The combination of drive, conditioning and training comes together to build duration in searches. If one of those requirements is missing, the ability to search is lessened.

Top tier military bomb dogs will search for much longer, but that is built up over years. Fama, at 4 years old, would actively search 6 miles or so without a break. They also learn to relax and settle into a search through experience.

To address your specific question, in a puppy, I want to see 5+ minutes of searching without coming back for help. This can be greatly effected by what kind of activity the dog has endured before the test and the conditioning of the dog. 

I think many people would be surprised at how quickly a dog will stop actually searching with its nose because of fatigue.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> 12 minutes searching full blast for a puppy is substantial. 12 minutes is far longer than most police dogs spend on a detection search. Many on leash detection dogs need regular handler direction after a search goes on beyond their attention span (a few minutes).
> 
> Respiration rate increases dramatically (200 bpm) when sniffing, so the dog loses oxygenation during a search. This also causes discomfort. The combination of drive, conditioning and training comes together to build duration in searches. If one of those requirements is missing, the ability to search is lessened.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. It makes sense that the condition of the dog plays a role as well.

If I'm not mistaken, someone experienced said that high hunt brings strong defense as well (?)

I think I'll post a couple of videos in a new thread so I don't completely derail this thread. If you feel like commenting on the videos and have time, at some point, it would be appreciated.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Thank you for this. It makes sense that the condition of the dog plays a role as well.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, someone experienced said that high hunt brings strong defense as well (?)
> 
> I think I'll post a couple of videos in a new thread so I don't completely derail this thread. If you feel like commenting on the videos and have time, at some point, it would be appreciated.


I have never noted any correlation between hunt drive and defense.

The very best detection dog I have ever seen was a super sweet black lab.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I wouldn’t put to much stock in how the guy is dressed here. He’s wearing an apron which some people use as protection when they are working on a sleeve. I’m sure the dog knows who this decoy is and what he’s here to do. The aggression here is more of a prey/play type than a dog looking to seriously hurt the decoy. I can’t say how social or sharp this dog is with people from this video. The pulling could be more of a training thing. I believe this dog was started at least in the same way a sport prospect would. There’s different situations I could see the need for sending a protection dog. If I was in a situation where someone had a gun and I thought an attack was imminent, I would send the dog if it was an option. If I came home and someone had broken in, I could see sending the dog. This dog is supposed to be a dual purpose working dog, so being sent could definitely be a part of the job. I don’t think pushing or pulling tells you all that much about a dog wanting to stay in the fight. I think you have to observe the whole picture.


Agree. I was just making observations based solely on the video.
The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Nothing in that video resembles protection.


you'll have to take that up with the french



David Winners said:


> If that is more than enough, any dog with a modicum of prey drive will suffice.


I tend to agree, but more to the point









Catch dog - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





as it relates to protection, or maybe as sport relates to livestock, or maybe just how I can see it's all inter-related. Little igor will grab a big aggressive runaway horned male *by the collar*, and dig his heels into the dirt in order to bring it to a stop without injuring it. I wouldn't even begin to know how to train that? It's just genetic. Instinct. So how many generations has it been since anybody in his tribe was even around livestock? and what kept those instincts alive?

I'm pretty sure we're looking at it with little andy right here






"applied herding"



Sabis mom said:


> I was just making observations based solely on the video.
> The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
> It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.


yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to import him either, but to me he looks serviceable enough



Dogs for sale - eliteslovakiank9.com



somebody reserved him. Good luck, andy!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I annoy myself with the ring thing, so I’m sure it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard to the rest of the world. But some of those lines. The peds. I’m pretty sure there’s some population isolation going on over there. If you’re into malinois it’s worth a look.
While I’m at it here, like 99 of 100 ringvids are unwatchable because ringfolk have such horrible taste in music. The takeaway, some really quick dogs will be forgotten because nobody can even stand to look at them. So when editing vids of your dog for youtube, if you feel like you just _must have musical accompaniment_, please choose something totally non-offensive that’s already stood the test of time. Maybe a little vivaldi or whatever?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Agree. I was just making observations based solely on the video.
> The dog seems willing and eager, beyond that ...
> It's different from what I want to see in a working dog. That could be training.


That was more so the point here, to talk about what’s in the video than the actual dog himself. I wanted it detached from the other details about the actual dog. I’ve seen his pedigree and based on the dogs he comes from, I would expect him to be a pretty serious dog when pushed. I think he can be a really good dog, just not quite the type I want.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I see equipment association. I've set a good pup back oversmacking the bitearm/nose. Live and learn. Long sends. Sound sensitivity test. Outs aren't crisp and they don't want to discourage him. Cartop action wasn't terribly flattering. I like the shipping container/tires/recycling. Hidden sleeve looks good. Suit looks good. I see no reason to assume he wouldn't grab an unprotected arm. Whipstick made good contact. Is that striped hoodie jute or something? Looks like the beginnings of passive, bit of toe action. Multiple handlers, multiple decoys. Looks ok to me? I'm too novice to detect anything really wrong there. 

educate me, please


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You see equipment association, yet you see no reason to assume he wouldn't grab an unprotected arm?

Yes, it is a terrible idea to hit a pup in the nose with a whip.

What is "toe action?"

There is a hidden sleeve under the hoodie. It's probably cotton.

What don't you like about the attack on top of the car?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> What don't you like about the attack on top of the car?


*I do like it *because criminals will often jump on top of vehicles in an attempt to avoid a dog









I have no interest whatsoever in attempting to impugn the integrity of this fine institution at large.

All I'm sayin' is, anytime you drop your bitearm below your knee, you may* look as if *you're feeding the sleeve. Overall I personally don't think this frame does the dog justice. The training scenario itself is sound enough, it just didn't play out as good as it might have _THIS TIME_, in front of the camera. Let's just call this a lesson in video editing.

@ 3:00 he looks to me like he'd grab. @ 4:30 little toe x gut. I don't mean to be mistrustful, but the striped sweatshirt strikes me as weird because they keep using it. It appears to be worn by multiple decoys. Are we sure that isn't like "french linen`" or something?

do you have any idea how difficult it is to even find a cotton hoodie anymore?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

None of this has anything to do with the dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> *I do like it *because criminals will often jump on top of vehicles in an attempt to avoid a dog
> 
> View attachment 571904
> 
> ...


The lowering of the sleeve is probably a safety thing. If the dog is targeting the sleeve and it is held higher, it may lead to the dog launching, which wouldn’t be safe for the decoy or dog in this scenario. I wouldn’t think too much of the clothing.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

but if it was me, everybody'd be all "quit feeding the sleeve, berno!" and the training director would make me stay after to clean up again. I know how you guys operate....


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> but if it was me, everybody'd be all "quit feeding the feeding the sleeve, berno!" and the training director would make me stay after and clean up again. I know how you guys operate....


Maybe. You never post videos though.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have to say, given the fact that 99.9% of violent criminals are male, I think the french may really be onto something with all this? Good dog, fluffy!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Are we discussing the video? Or the dog in the video? 
I think if the video was supposed to show the best of the dog it failed. Or more correctly it displays what might be a fun sport dog but would not make me think protection. I see a dog looking like he is having fun, which is awesome, but nothing about the demeanor or handling suggests serious. 
I'm not that smart though, and I have a WAY different expectation of protection then many people. So maybe the video is amazing and the dog is amazing and I'm just an idiot.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Everybody knows you're amazing and I'm the idiot, Sabis mom  *no question* your opinion is worth more than most because you were on the job.

many hard drives ago, lackland's "statement of work" re; procurement pdf was available online. At the time 2 protection commands were tested. On "get 'em" a prospect was expected to bark/snap/lunge on lead, and on "hold 'em" a prospect was expected to grab and hold. That's the entirety of my "protection worldview."

I like a go anywhere dog that for sure isn't going to bite anybody unless I say so. It's all fun and games because I'm in complete control of our environment at all times. I'm the manstopper. My dog is only a deterrent. In my opinion, when push really comes to shove, that's all any dog really is.






so "protection" can mean lots of different things to lots of different people and imo that only strengthens the argument in favor of standardized protection "sports." Not as the "end all be all" but just broadly as like a yardstick or benchmark.






if I were going to buy a trained protection dog, obedience would be my top priority


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I like a go anywhere dog that for sure isn't going to bite anybody unless I say so. It's all fun and games because I'm in complete control of our environment at all times. I'm the manstopper. My dog is only a deterrent. In my opinion, when push really comes to shove, that's all any dog really is.


I LIKE the dog in the video. He has a willing and eager look. He seems to be doing exactly as asked and looks to his handler for confirmation. 
I enjoy go anywhere dogs. The most social GSD I have had was also a successful working dog who had zero issues with turning on real aggression at a real threat. She would happily mooch pets and treats, or belly rubs from neighbors or friends, stole random children and was a favorite of everyone.
Confidence is the key. 
When I think protection I think of defense, not prey. But I am also not a fan of training young dogs.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Are we discussing the video? Or the dog in the video?
> I think if the video was supposed to show the best of the dog it failed. Or more correctly it displays what might be a fun sport dog but would not make me think protection. I see a dog looking like he is having fun, which is awesome, but nothing about the demeanor or handling suggests serious.
> I'm not that smart though, and I have a WAY different expectation of protection then many people. So maybe the video is amazing and the dog is amazing and I'm just an idiot.


This is an interesting answer, one that I was expecting. There are two things missing on the video that I want to see. That is the dog working with pressure from the decoy and in defense in general. There’s not many videos of dogs working in defense, at least publicly available. The big thing with defense is how does the dog respond without the prey stimulation. The video is just a snap shot though. They very rarely tell you the whole story on dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> There’s not many videos of dogs working in defense, at least publicly available.


do you know of any offhand? could you post one?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Its hard, you go digging for one with the dog and helper.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I like this one. He’s a little too serious for me personally  but I like what I see. Doesn’t look like prey to me, but he doesn’t exactly look “defensive” either. It’s business, not personal. Just another day on the job.






Dude: “Broke the clatter stick!”
Geist: “Go get some real sticks. We’ll wait right here.”

it get's clipped right at the end, but after the decoy walks away, geist looks at chip like "That was fun. Let's do it again, boss!"


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

It's funny how one evolves over time. I've always advocated gsd be evaluated on a bitearm and never even gave it any thought beyond that. But _this?!?!_... this is like straight out a quentin tarantino movie... even a little decker rat terrier would freeze a man in his tracks...


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you guys think of this dog? No real reason, just conversation.


In my NOVICE opinion, I think the dog looks really good. I think the true test is when the dog truly believes that the decoy is out to do it harm and, hopefully, is still willing to engage.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

WNGD said:


> I'm not sure half the dogs trained in personal protection would continue to stand in against a bad guy really swinging a bat.


In my humble view, a dog versus a bad guy with a bat is a bad matchup for the dog. In fact, it's a bad matchup for an unarmed human too. Although I certainly believe that a _legitimate _PSD or PPD must be willing to take a certain level of pain and stay in the fight, but there are limits.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

berno von der seeweise said:


> As far as I'm aware, the idea is to condition the dog to run the nerf bat gauntlet in order to* convince him *he's totally "batproof."


Yes, there are those that believe in that approach. I personally believe in teaching the dog that a bad guy with a stick/bat in their hand is a threat so that the dog doesn't run in full speed and get absolutely _pummeled_. Of course, I train for PPD so maybe that's just me.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> ...an aggressive dog will push in keeping the pressure on. This dog pulls back wanting his reward.


It's impossible to glean everything from one video. Something I like to do with a young PPD prospect is to have the decoy "attack" the_ handler _and then how the dog responds. I like this approach because there is no direct pressure being applied to the young PPD prospect. I like to have the dog tied off just to the side but close enough where, on its own, it can reach the decoy. I'd start with the decoy screaming like a little girl, adopting a submissive posture, and running away "crying" while the handler praises the dog effusively! Rinse and repeat and, when the dog (hopefully) bites the decoy, the decoy needs to REWARD the PPD prospect by "screaming" in pain and putting on an Oscar-worthy performance. The dog learns that he can dominate the decoy and that, by biting the decoy, the threat will retreat. And all of this is accomplished WITHOUT putting _direct _pressure on the young PPD prospect. Thereafter, the dog should be prepared for a more direct confrontation.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm just talking about joe/jane 6 pack doing the best they can with whatever they've got in the private sector


I think that's a good point. You have to work with what you've got. I met a guy who had a show line GSD that he bought for PPD work. LOL. The dog had ZERO confidence, even though he was a big, intimidating guy. I made sure his dog beat me like a drum and, when it was all said and done, the dog would put on a **** of a show. He'd cut and run if any _real _pressure was put on him but most non-dog people would be too intimidated to go there. LOL.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> ...so that certain bias didn’t change what people said or thought


What is your intention with the dog?


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I like this one. He’s a little too serious for me personally  but I like what I see. Doesn’t look like prey to me, but he doesn’t exactly look “defensive” either. It’s business, not personal. Just another day on the job.


I'm just an amateur but I think the dog looks really nice.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Most of the dogs I see trained aren’t outer off the sleeve until later in training.


I've seen plenty of PSD's that don't "out" either. LOL.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I like this one. He’s a little too serious for me personally  but I like what I see. Doesn’t look like prey to me, but he doesn’t exactly look “defensive” either. It’s business, not personal. Just another day on the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That dog isn’t working in defense. It looks more likely prey or what some people call fight.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Ralph2021 said:


> What is your intention with the dog?


It’s not my dog and it’s not going to be.


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## Ralph2021 (Apr 9, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> It’s not my dog and it’s not going to be.


Oh, ok. I misunderstood.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Ralph2021 said:


> Oh, ok. I misunderstood.


There is a thread here about my younger dog.








My new guy, Cion


I’ve since cleaned his ear.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> That dog isn’t working in defense.


he certainly doesn't appear to be feeling "defensive" of himself. If anything, he is defending his handler.



Bearshandler said:


> It looks more likely prey


well the decoy is running at him on the attack, so that's not "prey;" and the instant the decoy begins his retreat, the dog's focus immediately turns to his handler, so that's not "prey"



Bearshandler said:


> It looks more likely [ ] what some people call fight.


I've heard the term, but I still don't quite understand the nuance.

For me, here, what I see with my own dog. The more we agitate him, the more defensive he gets, and that only makes him less useful to me. Might be perfect temperament for a concentration camp or major metro, but here on rancho grande, not so much. Unless road warrior world happens...

near as I'm able to understand it so far, that ddr temperament is a lot like a livestock guardian breed, but with the added benefit of good obedience and a strong desire to please. He's only 15 months old, so maybe he's got some more maturing to do yet?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Defense or prey is determined by the motivation of the dog, not some specific movement.

IMO, you don't push a puppy into defense. Frustration is fine. The pup feeling honestly threatened, particularly by a family member, is a terrible idea.

No one should train a dog in bitework that doesn't completely understand how to read the dog and adjust pressure accordingly. The same goes for puppies, but X 147.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> he certainly doesn't appear to be feeling "defensive" of himself. If anything, he is defending his handler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t think we’re watching the same video. The dogs focus was on the decoy the entire time. Chip was fighting to get his focus on him. He even said as much. Agitation and pushing a dog into defense aren’t the same. Agitation brings anger, while defense comes from fear. When I say fear I mean the dog has to take the adversary as a threat. While agitation could push a dog into defense, it’s more of annoyance than threat. Dogs working in either of those states tend to be less controllable.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

just for me, my own experience, prey driven dogs are easy. Start early with the reizangel, transfer to a bitearm as soon as the teeth come in, agitate/condition your way up to hidden sleeve and done. Nothing to it. Strictly fun and games for the dog. The game doesn't make them aggressive at all.



Bearshandler said:


> Agitation brings anger [ ] it’s more of annoyance than threat.


that's been my experience with the other ddr breeds. The good ones seem to enjoy agitation. The harder you play, they harder they play, but it doesn't make them truly aggressive.

So far this ddr gsd temperament continues to elude me, but I'm not complaining because he more than makes up for it in other ways with my animals. I've learned to trust him. For example he doesn't alert unless he's got good reason, so when he does, I just listen. I don't know if he heard something or smelled it on the wind or what, but late last night he flipped his lid for a few minutes, and this morning when I released him he led me directly to this, maybe an 1/8 mile back in the woods. The weird part is I didn't find any feathers? Near as I can guess maybe a yote yacked it up and his alert spooked it off? I'm really not sure what to make of it? anybody got any ideas?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Agitation brings anger, while defense comes from fear. When I say fear I mean the dog has to take the adversary as a threat. While agitation could push a dog into defense, it’s more of annoyance than threat. Dogs working in either of those states tend to be less controllable.


Explain, please. Or correct me. 
The dogs I worked had stellar obedience, except Sabi. lol.
They started serious training around a year and bite training at about 18 months. Bite training focused on when, not how and largely on out when I say no matter what. Pretty and correct meant nothing. Keep every threat imaginable away from the handler, stay in the fight. Never loose your cool and never leave your handler. Defense.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Explain, please. Or correct me.
> The dogs I worked had stellar obedience, except Sabi. lol.
> They started serious training around a year and bite training at about 18 months. Bite training focused on when, not how and largely on out when I say no matter what. Pretty and correct meant nothing. Keep every threat imaginable away from the handler, stay in the fight. Never loose your cool and never leave your handler. Defense.


Once a dog goes into defense they tend to be less clear headed. I’m referring to the dog in drive. I’m not saying they can’t be trained in defense, just that it’s harder to add control.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> The dogs I worked [ ] started serious training around a year and bite training at about 18 months. Bite training focused on when, not how and largely on out when I say no matter what.





David Winners said:


> IMO, you don't push a puppy into defense. Frustration is fine. The pup feeling honestly threatened, particularly by a family member, is a terrible idea.





Bearshandler said:


> Once a dog goes into defense they tend to be less clear headed. I’m referring to the dog in drive. I’m not saying they can’t be trained in defense, just that it’s harder to add control.


this is all _so much more complicated_ than anything I'm used to

with the other breeds it's just like... ball drive... I guess? Take a 7 wk old pup that wants to chase and bite. Train it to a little reizangel early and often, out is rock solid from the jump. It's elementary. Work your way up to a bitearm, gradually increase pressure, let him win everytime, so "defense" never even enters into it. In the end you have a happy outgoing ultra confident dog that fears nothing and will bite anything anytime anywhere you say so.

I'm not suggesting this is a "real dog." I'm only saying it's real easy.

addendum: and I'm not talkin' no _predatory motor pattern "grab bite" _nonsense


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Once a dog goes into defense they tend to be less clear headed. I’m referring to the dog in drive. I’m not saying they can’t be trained in defense, just that it’s harder to add control.


So this is probably the reason for starting the training later? 
@David Winners thoughts on this? I only know how I was taught.
We raised the pups, worked on obedience, but never any hard training before 18 months. So maybe the reason was to add a solid foundation, maturity and self control? 
I'm looking at the original video and trying to figure out the training.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> So this is probably the reason for starting the training later?
> @David Winners thoughts on this? I only know how I was taught.
> We raised the pups, worked on obedience, but never any hard training before 18 months. So maybe the reason was to add a solid foundation, maturity and self control?
> I'm looking at the original video and trying to figure out the training.


Yes, that is why some trainers start later. Some start early in prey using tug games, working grips, teaching out. Many sport dogs never see a lot of pressure.

I'm waiting with Valor because we will be doing PPD type training and there is no need to start with fun games with the decoy. He tugs well, grips well, outs well. All that will transfer with some repetitions.

BH mentioned that dogs in defense are harder to control and I agree. That's where genetics and relationship come into play. A dog that is clear headed in a real fight is a keeper.

But in the end, I don't really care if a PPD will out during a fight.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> A dog that is clear headed in a real fight is a keeper.


where the real ppd rubber meets the road, I can't allow the bad guys who resist my dog to testify about it later on

so I've got the dog, and when I say "get 'em" the dog begins lunging and barking on lead; and at that moment, by definition, failure to retreat is an act of resistance






therefore little andy on hidden sleeve here is the epitome of "clear headed in a fight" and it's time to back him up with some lethal force

no?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> So this is probably the reason for starting the training later?
> @David Winners thoughts on this? I only know how I was taught.
> We raised the pups, worked on obedience, but never any hard training before 18 months. So maybe the reason was to add a solid foundation, maturity and self control?
> I'm looking at the original video and trying to figure out the training.


If I use my dogs as a comparison, Bear has a lot more anger in his bitework and can show real aggression toward the decoy at time. Once we actually got him going, he became a lot harder fir me to control in protection. I say anger instead of defense because I don’t envision dogs enjoying working in defense necessarily.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> But in the end, I don't really care if a PPD will out during a fight.


Totally agree! We were told to never, ever out the dog until we had back up on scene! But for liability reasons we needed to prove through cert and re cert that the dogs would out on command, every time, with out fail. Same liability said they must be on no more then a six foot lead at work. Purpose was protection, dog was covered if the threat was basically close enough to grab me. That's why the send makes no sense to me. 
Our dogs could not be lured, pushed or dragged away from us. If you were strong enough to run away with the dog on you it would let go rather then leave the handler.
We also never much focused on where they bit. In general if you were holding a weapon in your right hand the dog would neutralize that arm. So that's something else I don't understand. I'm fairly certain LE dogs are trained in similar fashion but the dog in the video targets the sleeve and not the weapon.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I have never noted any correlation between hunt drive and defense.
> 
> The very best detection dog I have ever seen was a super sweet black lab.


I think I should have said in the German Shepherd breed. Obviously, there are no absolutes but here is @cliffson1 :

"Martin likes to see high prey drive in dogs....I agree that I like prey, but am not fan of prey without fight drive( which is nothing more than play drive) . But I also like to see high hunt drive, which I have found that often accompanies high defense drive dogs....either way you need balance as others have said. Imo." - cliff anderson

Just thought you might find that interesting.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> I think I should have said in the German Shepherd breed. Obviously, there are no absolutes but here is @cliffson1 :
> 
> "Martin likes to see high prey drive in dogs....I agree that I like prey, but am not fan of prey without fight drive( which is nothing more than play drive) . But I also like to see high hunt drive, which I have found that often accompanies high defense drive dogs....either way you need balance as others have said. Imo." - cliff anderson
> 
> Just thought you might find that interesting.


Perspective means a lot here. The vast majority of dogs I have trained in detection were already screened and selected. 

It's also worthy of note that many of the dogs I worked in bitework were not the same dogs I started in tracking or detection, so I don't have a good perspective on their bare genetics.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I think doing a side by side comparison vs little audy here makes little andy look pretty darn good


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think doing a side by side comparison vs little audy here makes little andy look pretty darn good


How about you break that opinion down. Specifically, what shortcomings do you see in Audy compared to Andy?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

it's not about shortcomings, dave

it's about nose to nose, little andy ain't all that shabby


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

but it occurs to me, if this thread were a poker game, geist would be a royal flush


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