# Abuse?



## TrailRider

Ok, so two houses down I am a neighbor to a out of city police officer and his roommate that works for the same city as an officer. Both have two dogs, though one of the home owner's dogs is retired, I presume that both his roommates dogs are active working dogs. The home owner has two Mals, and the roommate a Mal and a GSD. Today I witnessed the horrible thing I think I've ever seen.

I walked to my kitchen window, you can see their whole back yard from there, and I saw the roommate pick the GSD up above his head, had to be at least seven feet, and slam him down on the ground. I could not believe what I just saw. The dog didn't move, I feared he was injured. To my relief he got up when the man called him over to the gate, he trotted over to him, tail between his legs and low to the ground in a submissive posture. 

I know working dogs are handled roughly but really? Does it have to be that extreme? I didn't see what the dog did but did he really deserve to be handled like that? My husband is a MA in the Navy, his response when I told him what happened was "what did you expect?" 

I could understand had the roommates little girl been in the yard and he like but her or attacked her, but she was no where to be seen. It was just him, his dog, the home owner standing there staring and his two dogs playing and sniffing around near him.

I never see this man act kindly to either of his dogs, besides letting the GSD in the house or taking him for a ride in his truck. The poor Mal stay cooped up in their kennel ALL THE TIME. At least the home owner does play with his dogs and love on them.

Don't know, maybe it's just me but I think his dogs deserve to be treated with little more respect and be given a bit more dignity. I know most LEOs and military refer to their dogs as tools, but they're not. They're dogs, living breathing animals, not machines.


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## Slamdunc

While MWD's and Police K-9's are in fact tools, they have a very important and vital function to perform. Every handler that I know treats their dog very well, cares for their dogs and love their dogs. With out that bond the working relationship is surely impacted. Since I did not see what happened, I'll take your word that the dog in your opinion was strongly corrected. If there are 4 male working dogs living at that house, perhaps the GSD became aggressive or started to instigate aright with one of the Mals. Perhaps the GSD became aggressive to the handler. Yes, shocking as it may sound….some working dogs are handler aggressive. Perhaps the handler was trying to prevent a fight between the GSD and one of the other dogs. That is one way to take control very quickly and assert dominance over an aggressive dog, but must be done quickly and carefully. 

From the scenario as you describe it, my thought would be that the GSD probably went for or was about to go for one of the other male dogs. I have been in this situation myself, owning 3 working dogs at one time. A dog fight between two male working dogs is not something to be taken lightly, even if one or both dogs are retired. Fights like this rarely end with out serious injury to one or both dogs and the handlers. Picking up the offending dog quickly changes his state and placing him firmly on the ground will usually end the situation. One must be fast, strong and not afraid to instantly intervene when in this situation. When done correctly, instantly and with significant power the fight is taken out the dog, the dog is not injured and the handler is not bitten. It is a very effective way to gain control and stop a dog fight by a strong handler. 

I am not recommending this technique to novice handlers or for owners with "softer" dogs. Having owned some very dog aggressive dogs, handler aggressive dogs and sufficiently hard, strong dogs over the years I have used a similar technique on occasion. With that said, I do not like "alpha rolling" dogs nor do I believe in doing that. But when out in a yard with out a leash, sometimes you have to take charge the best way you can as quickly as you can. 

It sounds like you love dogs, as do I. But if you have never handled a working dog you would think this was severe or harsh. If I am correct in my thinking this was not very severe at all.

JMO FWIW<
JIM


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## K9kodi

Very well put slamdunc. Most civilians, outsiders looking in, have no clue what it takes to train, control and maintain a patrol dog. Place in addition to that this observer, has only done just that, observed at a distance. This person obviously took no time to become neighborly with their neighbors or show enough interest to learn and broaden then horizons, instead they wish to quickly blow the whistle and throw a flag in an area they have no knowledge in.

I suppose this observer would be the same person to call animal control if that handler didn't correct his dogs behavior and claim there was a dog fighting ring.

Police dogs are chosen for their characteristics, and as they successfully progress through their career, they become hard and resilient and need praise and corrections accordingly. As slamdunc stated, it could have been a nasty dog fight had the handler not properly intervened. 

I suggest the original poster do some research on a proper alpha roll and then tell me wha he did wrong......cause I can guarantee it was proper.

As for the kennel issue, again, this speaks highly of your knowledge outside any realm of pets. When your life depends on a k9 working, you want that, no wait, you need that dog to work. A k9 who is treated as your pet gsd is treated is probably broke before he's got a chance. I want a dog who is ready and willing to work, one that doesn't see a couch and wants to relax, I want a dog that will enter a house and think it's time to work, not let's take it easy and kick back. But once again, I'm sure the original poster already knows this.


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## TrailRider

Slamdunc, thank you for your comment. Everything you said makes sense. Picking a dog up and putting him the ground to stop his line of thinking and to focus on you makes perfect sense to me. But he picked him up over his head and slammed him on the ground. I'm not exaggerating this either. Not trying to be sarcastic, nor do I want to know so I can do it myself, but how high would you pick a dog up to do this? It just shocked me when I saw it. And like I said, I didn't see what prompted the correction. You're probably right about the dog fight. The three dogs get along fine by themselves, even with the home owner in the yard with them. He probably felt he had to assert himself to the other dogs since his human was now in the yard with them. The other Mal stays in his kennel. Thanks again, very informative.

K9kodi, as odd as this may sound coming from an "observer," I would not have called animal control had there been a fight, nor would I ever suggest such a thing as a dog fight ring. I am not that kind of person. And I am smarter than your average "observer," I've live beside the home owner for three years, I think I know better. So do stop judging me before even know me.


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## boomer11

K9kodi said:


> Very well put slamdunc. Most civilians, outsiders looking in, have no clue what it takes to train, control and maintain a patrol dog. Place in addition to that this observer, has only done just that, observed at a distance. This person obviously took no time to become neighborly with their neighbors or show enough interest to learn and broaden then horizons, instead they wish to quickly blow the whistle and throw a flag in an area they have no knowledge in.
> 
> I suppose this observer would be the same person to call animal control if that handler didn't correct his dogs behavior and claim there was a dog fighting ring.
> 
> Police dogs are chosen for their characteristics, and as they successfully progress through their career, they become hard and resilient and need praise and corrections accordingly. As slamdunc stated, it could have been a nasty dog fight had the handler not properly intervened.
> 
> I suggest the original poster do some research on a proper alpha roll and then tell me wha he did wrong......cause I can guarantee it was proper.


lol man you sure know it all


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## JakodaCD OA

well k9kodi, I didn't see any of what you are suggesting in the OP's post.

Rather presumptuious of you ..


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## David Winners

I have bounced and/or hung a few dogs when there was danger and the situation needed to stop right now, especially after a bite on the handler.

The height from which this is done is in direct proportion to the mental state of the dog and severity of the infraction, like any correction.

This is not something I suggest by any means. If you aren't working with this type of dog in this type of situation there is no need to even consider it. Slamming or hanging a dog could certainly be abuse if done out of context or improperly. 

***Don't do this at home or try it out on your dog!***


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## TrailRider

Wow really? That height is ok? It just rattled me, I've never seen anything like that unless it was to cause harm. They can really take that? And no worries here, I would never do that. I doubt I could pick mine up above my waist lol. And he in no way is aggressive towards anything, he's just the opposite. I've seen the home owner hang his active dog, he was getting really rambunctious.


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## Slamdunc

Trailrider,
Your welcome for the explanation. "How high would I pick a dog up to do this?" High enough to ensure that I immediately stopped the behavior. In a situation like this you only get one shot to do it right. Too soft means the GSD gets back up and fights, the Mal jumps in on you, or you as the handler gets bit. High and hard enough depending on the dog to make a lasting impression. This is more about control, shock and awe and not pain. It is not supposed to injure the dog at all. 

When it comes to correcting dogs, the correction has to be strong enough to immediately stop the behavior and so the dog remembers the correction for days, weeks and months to come. I do not nag my dogs and I do not repeat commands that the dog already knows and understands. I train motivationally, users clickers, food, kongs and balls on a rope. 98% of what I do is motivationally. I am very fair, loving and clear with my dogs but I am also firm. I am a benevolent dictator of sorts. For those that are seriously into working dogs, competition or own high drive dogs you soon realize that an effective correction is on that does not have to be repeated. These are not poodles, yorkies or chi's. These are serious dogs that have to handled properly. Dogs do best and work best when everything is "black and white."

Four patrol dogs loose in a yard can get along for years and then fight over a toy, attention from a person or food. Or rough play can go to far and turn into a fight. Some of these dogs will not back down or give up easily. As mark Twain said "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog that matters." I can assure if this handler was overly hard or heavy handed it would quickly show up in the dogs performance. As you said the dog submissively came when called and no longer wanted to fight. That was probably the right correction for that particular dog. 

Please keep in mind when dogs are not properly corrected for inappropriate aggression and allowed to get away with it; it creates huge problems. Inappropriate aggression and dog aggression are things that I will not tolerate in my working dogs. I just can't have my dog going off a high risk track to fight with a loose dog at 2AM. It is just too dangerous for both of us. 

My advice would be to go and talk to your neighbors and meet them and their dogs. Most guys would be happy to show your their dogs and even do a little demo. Ask what happened, ask about their dogs temperaments and personalities. K-9 guys love talking about their dogs. 

I hope that helps,

Jim


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## David Winners

TrailRider said:


> Wow really? That height is ok? It just rattled me, I've never seen anything like that unless it was to cause harm. They can really take that? And no worries here, I would never do that. I doubt I could pick mine up above my waist lol. And he in no way is aggressive towards anything, he's just the opposite. I've seen the home owner hang his active dog, he was getting really rambunctious.


I'm not saying anything was OK. If I would have seen this, I would have walked over and asked what was going on. If the correction was given for the dog refusing a command or something, I would take issue with the handler.

In a particular situation, such as handler aggression, I have given this type of correction. I don't know exactly how high the dog was, probably not over my head. I did this with Fama, and it wasn't enough. We ended up on the ground in a fight.

If I saw a handler do this, he better have his own blood somewhere to justify his actions.

David Winners


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## gsdsar

David Winners said:


> I'm not saying anything was OK. If I would have seen this, I would have walked over and asked what was going on. If the correction was given for the dog refusing a command or something, I would take issue with the handler.
> 
> In a particular situation, such as handler aggression, I have given this type of correction. I don't know exactly how high the dog was, probably not over my head. I did this with Fama, and it wasn't enough. We ended up on the ground in a fight.
> 
> If I saw a handler do this, he better have his own blood somewhere to justify his actions.
> 
> David Winners



I agree with David. If I had seen that I would have walked over with a friendly " hey, everything all right?" Kind of attitude. At least to jet them know, if nothing else, that someone is watching. 

I know sometimes it's tough to get involved, we all want to mind our own business. But sometimes you have to. 


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## Slamdunc

David Winners said:


> I'm not saying anything was OK. If I would have seen this, I would have walked over and asked what was going on. If the correction was given for the dog refusing a command or something, I would take issue with the handler.
> 
> In a particular situation, such as handler aggression, I have given this type of correction. I don't know exactly how high the dog was, probably not over my head. I did this with Fama, and it wasn't enough. We ended up on the ground in a fight.
> 
> If I saw a handler do this, he better have his own blood somewhere to justify his actions.
> 
> David Winners


It seems several of us posted at the same time. David, I agree with you. This is for severe cases of aggression, i.e. handler aggression or dog aggression. It is not my preferred method of dealing with dog aggression, but with loose dogs in a yard and no leash available, it is certainly a viable option. One must keep in mind that dog aggression can quickly turn into "displaced aggression" and handler aggression. This is why I feel it must be handled immediately, firmly and fairly. I have done this with a male GSD that would quickly turn and engage me if the behavior was not extinguished immediately. I have other methods for dealing with and training for dog aggression that do not provoke a handler aggressive response. In a perfect world that is what I'd do. But, in the heat of the moment you do what you have to do. When there is no leash on the dog, sometimes you have to go "hands on."


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## boomer11

imo there are very few situations where you have to pick your dog up and slam it to get the point across. if a dog bites you it depends on the reason why the dog bit. if a dog bites you because it was resource guarding and you slammed it, you just made it worst and didnt fix a thing. 

if you've known the neighbor for 3 years and this is the first time he's been this rough with his dog then maybe the situation was warranted. if he's always rough with this dog then i'd lean abuse.


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## TrailRider

Wow, I'm feeling better about this. I think it's where my head ache came from. I knew that working dogs must be treated differently than your normal pet because of their training. That's why I didn't call animal control lol. But again I had never seen that done before so it really shook me. Had this been an average pet I would have done something.


Jim, I have been dying to go talk to these guys lol. I'm not very confident when it comes to approaching people face to face though. When we first moved here the home owner came over with his retired dog and introduced himself. I can't remember his name or the dogs name though. I'm a bad neighbor lol. And you're right, I've seen dogs go from playing to fighting in seconds.


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## David Winners

boomer11 said:


> imo there are very few situations where you have to pick your dog up and slam it to get the point across. if a dog bites you it depends on the reason why the dog bit. if a dog bites you because it was resource guarding and you slammed it, you just made it worst and didnt fix a thing.


Depends on the resource and why the dog is guarding. I don't think you comprehend the possessive nature that can come along with imported green dogs. It's nothing like what you are used to seeing. I have got stitches after trying to get a ball back from Spike31, 3yo imported KNPV Mal.


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## boomer11

David Winners said:


> Depends on the resource and why the dog is guarding. I don't think you comprehend the possessive nature that can come along with imported green dogs. It's nothing like what you are used to seeing. I have got stitches after trying to get a ball back from Spike31, 3yo imported KNPV Mal.


very true, it does depend on why the dog is guarding.

so what did you do? i thought when a handler gets a green dog they bond bond bond for awhile and not just physically force the dog into listening?


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## gsdsar

As someone who has had an adult working GSD come up the leash at them, I can only imagine what my neighbors thought. But I would have been okay with one of them coming outside and asking what's going on. I would much rather have a neighbor care about my treatment of the dogs than turn a blind eye. 

If you are unsure about talking to new people, make up a good reason to go over. Talk about your dogs, ask an inane behavior question. Ask about what kind if work they do with their dogs. Bring cookies, for the owners. 

I know lots of K9 handlers. They like to talk about their dogs, they are proud of their dogs. 


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## Slamdunc

boomer11 said:


> very true, it does depend on why the dog is guarding.
> 
> so what did you do? i thought when a handler gets a green dog they bond bond bond for awhile and not just physically force the dog into listening?


That really depends on the dog and the situation. Ideally, it would be long walks on a nice beach.  But, sometimes the dog comes out of the crate with his own agenda, attitude and his own set of rules. Sometimes the dog may need to know who is the boss right off the bat. Then, you set the tone for the relationship and begin to bond on YOUR terms not the dogs. 

Trailrider,
I am also in VA and very active with our state K-9 association. If you want to privately message me, perhaps I know the handlers and can talk to them. If he came over when he first moved in, he's probably a nice enough guy. Bringing his dog over says a lot to me. PM me some details and I will make some inquiries. K-9 is a relatively small world and K-9 guys always seem to get along with each other. If I can be of assistance let me know.

Jim


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## LifeofRiley

@ David Winners and Slamdunc… thank you for providing additional clarification to your original posts on this thread. 

Like the OP, I have zero experience with PoliceK9 training, so I would have been equally shocked (and rattled) if I had witnessed what the OP witnessed. 

It is very good to hear from both of you that the “slamming” technique is only deemed appropriate in the most extreme cases of aggression, i.e. where immediate action is needed to protect the handler or a bystander (person/dog) from severe injury/harm. 

@Slamdunc – your offer to the OP in your last post is a great example of why I love this forum.


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## Slamdunc

LifeofRiley,
Thanks for the nice comment. Yes, I agree this is an excellent forum with a lot of very knowledgeable, nice, helpful people. I don't mind helping out when I can, that's what it's all about. 

BTW, I love for avatar of your white GSD. I rescued a white GSD years ago, "Schotzie." One of my all time favorite dogs and holds a special place in my heart. 

The job that us MWD and LE K-9 Handlers is not for the faint of heart. The dogs we select tend to have high drive and be tough dogs. Often they do not make the best pets. It takes some skill, lots of work, and handling to be successful with them while working. I love my dog but I absolutely maintain boundaries. We love our dogs and the job they do, I wouldn't trade it or my dog for anything.


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## David Winners

boomer11 said:


> very true, it does depend on why the dog is guarding.
> 
> so what did you do? i thought when a handler gets a green dog they bond bond bond for awhile and not just physically force the dog into listening?


I wasn't his handler, I was his trainer, and if a dog bites me in that context, I'm going to correct it. 

Yes, new handlers have a period of bonding. They have no idea what they are getting into, and less of an idea how to handle these dogs. It's my job to set the rules for the dog before the new handler is expected to deal with it.

David Winners


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## Gretchen

I just googled slamming a dog to the ground and came up with 4 headlines about dog deaths, one a lab, one a chi, the other two unknown. There have got to be other alternatives to this type of correction, if this is what is was. Otherwise it is abuse.

Last year a retired police officer in the town next to me was arrested for abusing his GSD. Just because he is a police office does not mean what he does is always right. My husband is friends with one of the K9 officers in the town next to us. When I see him, I will definitely ask him about this.


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## nikon22shooter

Ive only slammed my dog one. But I knew what I was getting into when I took in a aggressive rescue GSD. And I didn't even lift him up. I just grabbed him by the chest and put my elbow into his neck and kind of tackled him to the ground until he submitted. Since then I haven't had to slam him. Occasionally a nice smack on the rear but nothing extreme.


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## boomer11

well when you google it of course only the bad stuff comes into the news.

i do agree there are better ways. if a trainers way of dealing with any dog who bit was to slam it into the ground i'd find a new one. the way slamdunc explained it is that sometimes you dont have the tools handy to deal with it so you just have to correct the dog the best way you can in that moment aka slam into the ground. but if someone did that as their way of correcting a dog i wouldnt call them very much of a trainer.


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## MadLab

Picking up a dog over head height and slamming to the ground is absurd and dangerous.

Then to call it a correction is laughable.

Just cause military or police handlers do it, it's ok? I don't think so.

It is just the frustration of the handler and an aggressive nature at work.

What dog will learn something valuable from this exercise.

The submissive reaction of the dog as posted by the op reveals what comes of this extreme dominance. 'Do or Die Dog, we will use you as we wish'. Pure Ignorance. 

Dogs deserve to be respected. If handlers are getting bitten then they deserve it.


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## TrailRider

I've since talked to the handler and it was a necessary thing to do to get things under control.


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## misslesleedavis1

Made the mistake of googling it,
Image of dead puppy slammed into the ground pops up,


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## nikon22shooter

MadLab said:


> Picking up a dog over head height and slamming to the ground is absurd and dangerous.
> 
> Then to call it a correction is laughable.
> 
> Just cause military or police handlers do it, it's ok? I don't think so.
> 
> It is just the frustration of the handler and an aggressive nature at work.
> 
> What dog will learn something valuable from this exercise.
> 
> The submissive reaction of the dog as posted by the op reveals what comes of this extreme dominance. 'Do or Die Dog, we will use you as we wish'. Pure Ignorance.
> 
> Dogs deserve to be respected. If handlers are getting bitten then they deserve it.



Have you ever worked with a K9 working dog? I would be interested to hearing your history on such a topic.

Since your response was completely emotional I'm guessing you have zero experience on the matter.


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## Nigel

Ok silly question, I see MWD carried over the shoulders and behind the soldiers neck, I've done this with my own. Any problems lifting a dog to do this (or any similar lifting) after it's been corrected in this manner?


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## Slamdunc

Trailrider,
I'm glad that you guys talked.  

Ok, I think I have expressed myself on this thread and the OP was able to talk to the handler. I don't think I have anything else to add.

Nigel, no not all.


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## nikon22shooter

Nigel said:


> Ok silly question, I see MWD carried over the shoulders and behind the soldiers neck, I've done this with my own. Any problems lifting a dog to do this (or any similar lifting) after it's been corrected in this manner?



I bet after you slam him a few times the dog would get anxiety about being on your shoulders or being off the ground. But I've never lifted my dogs above my head.


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## my boy diesel

MadLab said:


> Picking up a dog over head height and slamming to the ground is absurd and dangerous.
> 
> Then to call it a correction is laughable.
> 
> Just cause military or police handlers do it, it's ok? I don't think so.
> 
> It is just the frustration of the handler and an aggressive nature at work.
> 
> What dog will learn something valuable from this exercise.
> 
> The submissive reaction of the dog as posted by the op reveals what comes of this extreme dominance. 'Do or Die Dog, we will use you as we wish'. Pure Ignorance.
> 
> Dogs deserve to be respected. If handlers are getting bitten then they deserve it.


thank you
i thought i had wandered into
twilight zone


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## Chip18

Just gonna say E collar??? If the dog had a "problem" surely there were signs??


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## Nigel

nikon22shooter said:


> I bet after you slam him a few times the dog would get anxiety about being on your shoulders or being off the ground. But I've never lifted my dogs above my head.


I don't lift her for amusement, we hike a lot and accidents happen, if she were to be injured in a manner needing to be hauled out, I want her to be familiar with what I'm doing and not panic.


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## nikon22shooter

Nigel said:


> I don't lift her for amusement, we hike a lot and accidents happen, if she were to be injured in a manner needing to be hauled out, I want her to be familiar with what I'm doing and not panic.



I think it is a great exercise to try. I picked mine up the one day because he got out of the fence and had to lift him over and he freaked out being lifted up. So I think it would be good to get them use to being picked up and being comfortable doing so.


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## misslesleedavis1

@nigel,

I pick mine up some times, not so much the 90 pound one but dexter and tyson get hauled up for no reason, i dont think they care.


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## Curtis

I'm curious about the logistics of slamming a dog from overhead to the ground without damaging limbs.

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## my boy diesel

i was thinking
broken ribs


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## David Winners

The direction this thread has gone is why some trainers are reluctant to talk about some things.

Read back through my posts and see if you think I am unfair, abusive and don't always look for a way for the dog to succeed.

Taking a dog you have raised, that knows you, that isn't a truly aggressive dog trying to hurt you and slamming it into the ground is abuse.

Protecting yourself from an aggressive adult, trained patrol dog is another matter. You just go ahead and strap that e-collar on while the dog is attached to your leg. Let me know how that works out for you.

Notice how it's not handlers or trainers of patrol dogs that are calling this abuse. The fact that people without any experience in this field are commenting like they understand the facts of the situation is ridiculous.

David Winners


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## TrailRider

Would you rather get bit in the face be the dog being attack by your dog or lift him up out of harms way, keeping you out of harms way, and then establishing that you are alpha and this behaviour is undesirable. Dogs like these don't get fearful. They've been bred and trained for it. Like PP state, this isn't something they like doing nor is it done all the time. Just in extreme cases. I guarantee those dogs that were found when y'all googled this weren't handled properly. That's why I didn't google it. 

Should I have gone over and talked to them instead of starting a thread, yes. But what's done is done. Let it end.


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## nikon22shooter

Well said Davis Winners. Glad someone else isn't so emotionally and can see logic.


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## TrailRider

Is there any way to delete this? It needs to end. I understand now, apparently others don't.


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## my boy diesel

trail i am confused
u were appalled and now you feel 
it is justified?
i do not
i know police k9 officers
who do not feel the need to throw their dogs
to the ground to make them mind
i have no clue why some actually think 
that is acceptable behavior


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## nikon22shooter

my boy diesel said:


> trail i am confused
> u were appalled and now you feel
> it is justified?
> i do not
> i know police k9 officers
> who do not feel the need to throw their dogs
> to the ground to make them mind
> i have no clue why some actually think
> that is acceptable behavior



Because you have no idea what your talking about. You have ZERO experience in this matter. You may as well give Lebron James advice on how to dunk.


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## my boy diesel

*Taking a dog you have raised, that knows you, that isn't a truly aggressive dog trying to hurt you and slamming it into the ground is abuse.*

you are the one 
comparing what this owner did
to a legit training situation in which
you then describe a trainer who has been bitten
by a police or military dog and then it is okay 
to body slam the dog 


you just described the op as abuse since it could
very well be a dog he raised since he owns it
and if it was aggressive then there are more issues
than a body slam is going to fix


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## boomer11

when i think of police/military dogs i think of dogs that are hard in every sense of the word. i also think of them as dominant and not submissive. they can tolerate pain and can get over a correction quickly. sometimes maybe they have to be given a correction that most of us are uncomfortable with to get the point across. 

while i've never slammed my pup, i have seen him fall from around 8 ft high and be completely fine. he climbed up to go down a slide but he is used to going down slides that were straight. this one had twist in it. at the first twist in the slide he decided to jump out and his front foot got caught and he flipped and landed on his side in a thud. he got up shook himself off and wanted to climb up the ladder again. didnt even phase him. when i think of military dogs i think of this but x2.


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## my boy diesel

nikon22shooter said:


> Because you have no idea what your talking about. You have ZERO experience in this matter. You may as well give Lebron James advice on how to dunk.


which matter are you speaking of?
an owner of a dog body slamming his pet dog
or a working dog being body slammed because it
bit its handler or trainer?


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## nikon22shooter

my boy diesel said:


> which matter are you speaking of?
> 
> an owner of a dog body slamming his pet dog
> 
> or a working dog being body slammed because it
> 
> bit its handler or trainer?



Working with a actual working dog that has no fear or submission. A dog trained for blood. Your emotional responses show your intelligence on the matter. Which is next to none.


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## TrailRider

I feel in this case it was necessary, I didn't understand before. After talking to Jim and a few others, plus the handler I have a better understanding for why he did what he had to do. In train horses and to some people what I do might look "abusive," but it's not. He doesn't do this to his dog all the time. I would hope others don't do it all the time either. When done properly I'm sure the dog isn't hurt.

The handler assured me that he dislikes it himself but in a situation where you have very few options on getting the situation under control what else are you to do? I probably would have done the same now that I'm more educated. It's like K9kodi said, I was an observer. Now I know.


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## David Winners

my boy diesel said:


> *Taking a dog you have raised, that knows you, that isn't a truly aggressive dog trying to hurt you and slamming it into the ground is abuse.*
> 
> you are the one
> comparing what this owner did
> to a legit training situation in which
> you then describe a trainer who has been bitten
> by a police or military dog and then it is okay
> to body slam the dog
> 
> 
> you just described the op as abuse since it could
> very well be a dog he raised since he owns it
> and if it was aggressive then there are more issues
> than a body slam is going to fix


I am the one who didn't say it was justified. I have examples of when it is justified IMO.



David Winners


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## TrailRider

> The handler assured me that he dislikes it himself but in a situation where you have very few options on getting the situation under control what else are you to do? I probably would have done the same now that I'm more educated. It's like K9kodi said, I was an observer. Now I know.


That's if I were a K9 handler. My guy and girl are fine with voice commands. They aren't strong dogs like these trained K9s.


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## my boy diesel

JakodaCD OA said:


> well k9kodi, I didn't see any of what you are suggesting in the OP's post.
> 
> Rather presumptuious of you ..


i agree with jakoda but
most of all
i am curious what grevious act this dog
did to deserve punishment in that form
it sounds as if you spoke to the neighbor


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## MadLab

> I saw the roommate pick the GSD up above his head, *had to be at least seven feet*, and slam him down on the ground. I could not believe what I just saw. The dog didn't move, I feared he was injured. To my relief he got up when the man called him over to the gate, he trotted over to him, tail between his legs and low to the ground in a submissive posture.


So do you recommend picking up a dog to *seven feet* and slamming to the ground David? Or do you prefer a head height slam. Or maybe a helicopter on the leash and bang into a tree. 

And you say people who post their opinions on the topic are ridiculous!

Most of the time you are correct but here you show what goes on behind the closed door. The general public doesn't need to know about techniques like this and so 'trainers' shouldn't post them. They can easily slid into abusive dog handling. 

It might be ok for someone like your self to do it with what ever level of self-control you possess, but others will abuse it and take out their frustration and damage the dog. That is human nature and we don't need to be working, getting bitten and beating k9's to understand that.


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## nikon22shooter

Your comparing apples and oranges now. Typical emotional response. Smh. I'm out of this topic.


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## David Winners

TrailRider said:


> That's if I were a K9 handler. My guy and girl are fine with voice commands. They aren't strong dogs like these trained K9s.


Fama was good with voice commands too. When she came out of the kennel ready to fight, there wasn't but 2 choices. Win or lose. When a dog like this goes into fight mode and you are the target, there is no voice command or leash pop that is going to make a difference to the dog. It is going to eat you. We worked it out and became BFFs.

There are plenty of very strong dogs that are not like this. It's hard to explain, but there is no personal connection with these dogs at first. They are kennel dogs until they spend some time on a handler.



David Winners


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## TrailRider

David, right I get it. Ruger, my GSD is just a family dog. He's trained to sit, stay, down, shake, and high five. My other is a Corgi, if a fight gets going she started it. Ruger is still just a puppy so he gives in to her if I don't stop it in time.


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## GatorBytes

TrailRider said:


> That's if I were a K9 handler. My guy and girl are fine with voice commands. They aren't strong dogs like these trained K9s.


 These are not trained K9's. A dog employed by LE, isn't in a multi dog household, roomie situation. It is a only dog household. At least according to my ex's brother who is a federal agent...not a handler, but works directly alongside handlers and their dogs.

Takes a very special, high drive, sound dog to pass and be allowed to be in the employ of LE.

The first year of dog being with handler, it lives with and their family. The dog is then removed and sent to a new handler - it is after this (as well as whole bunch more stuff) and if all training goes well, and the dog has what it takes, stays with that handler until retires.

An unsound , handler aggressive, DA, dog handing out with three other dogs in the back yard sniffing around is NOT a trained K9 dog,

These guys are not "handlers", they are LEO's with pet's. One may be abusing his. IMHO


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## gsdsar

GatorBytes said:


> These are not trained K9's. A dog employed by LE, isn't in a multi dog household, roomie situation. It is a only dog household. At least according to my ex's brother who is a federal agent...not a handler, but works directly alongside handlers and their dogs.



Not true. I know lots and lots if LEO with working K9 in a multiple dog household. Intermingling with pet dogs regularly. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## nikon22shooter

It's the internet. Everyone is an expert. 1 dog per person limit hahahaha


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## GatorBytes

nikon22shooter said:


> It's the internet. Everyone is an expert. 1 dog per person limit hahahaha





gsdsar said:


> Not true. I know lots and lots if LEO with working K9 in a multiple dog household. Intermingling with pet dogs regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Yes, lets latch onto the one line you can argue...maybe it's different in the U.S.

nikonshooter...your snide comments to my boy diesel as well as quoted here....well, it's this crud that gets threads locked, and one self sent to the dog house for a two week shut down.
Play nice



GatorBytes said:


> These are not trained K9's. A dog employed by LE, isn't in a multi dog household, roomie situation. It is a only dog household. At least according to my ex's brother who is a federal agent...not a handler, but works directly alongside handlers and their dogs.
> 
> *Takes a very special, high drive, sound dog to pass and be allowed to be in the employ of LE.
> 
> The first year of dog being with handler, it lives with and their family. The dog is then removed and sent to a new handler - it is after this (as well as whole bunch more stuff) and if all training goes well, and the dog has what it takes, stays with that handler until retires.
> 
> An unsound , handler aggressive, DA, dog handing out with three other dogs in the back yard sniffing around is NOT a trained K9 dog,
> 
> These guys are not "handlers", they are LEO's with pet's. One may be abusing his. IMHO*


 Got anything to say about this


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## boomer11

nikon22shooter said:


> It's the internet. Everyone is an expert. 1 dog per person limit hahahaha


you sure like to talk down to people. do you own a police dog since i guess you're the expert? dont you own a border collie and a little pup? arent you the one who thinks an ecollar correction is the same as a jab with your fingers to the dogs neck??


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## Slamdunc

nikon22shooter said:


> It's the internet. Everyone is an expert. 1 dog per person limit hahahaha


Very true! One thing to keep in mind is that you can never win an Internet argument. 

To be clear our patrol dogs stay with us for their career and for retirement. This is the situation with this handler. He has a retired dog and his current SWAT K-9. Anyone who feels they can handle my dog with a clicker, cookies and a chorus of Kumbya is welcome to try it. I have no handler aggression issues, no need to use any harsh corrections at all. But, you are welcome to come and take him from his kennel and walk him down the street. The dog lives in my house and works every day. Come on by and take him out, put a leash on him and then put him back in his kennel. Then we will talk about handling aggressive dogs and what is appropriate. 

I'm finished as I saw thus thread going downhill fast 3 pages ago.


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## David Winners

MadLab said:


> So do you recommend picking up a dog to *seven feet* and slamming to the ground David? Or do you prefer a head height slam. Or maybe a helicopter on the leash and bang into a tree.
> 
> Those are your words and not mine. I didn't recommend a height. as a matter of fact, I said it was lower then head height. I never said I would helicopter a dog. I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> And you say people who post their opinions on the topic are ridiculous!
> 
> 
> Most of the time you are correct but here you show what goes on behind the closed door. The general public doesn't need to know about techniques like this and so 'trainers' shouldn't post them. They can easily slid into abusive dog handling.
> 
> I didn't bring up these techniques. The OP did. I simply stated when I felt they were justified. Several handlers agreed.
> 
> It might be ok for someone like your self to do it with what ever level of self-control you possess, but others will abuse it and take out their frustration and damage the dog. That is human nature and we don't need to be working, getting bitten and beating k9's to understand that.
> 
> Well, first you call me out to be abusive, slamming dogs into trees, and then you say it's probably OK for me to do this, but not someone else. Make me out to be a monster if you wish. I can handle that. It's a small price to pay for what I do.


Did you see the warnings I posted! Do you just skim through things and then pick apart what you feel like?

I will say it again. DO NOT DO THIS. ANYONE. JUST DON'T.

Go ahead with your judgemental attitude. Maybe when a patrol K9 saves your life someday, you may reconsider. Maybe when a friend, cousin, family member is saved by the explosives detection dog in a war zone, you may understand that sometimes we handle dogs that aren't normal, as you would see them. Fama had bitten 6 handlers before I got her. Because I successfully got her reigned in, she found MANY IEDs in Afghanistan. I can't even fathom how many lives she saved.

So you tell me. Is losing a hundred soldiers worth slamming her on the ground once? You make the choice. Lose a hundred friends or make the dog understand that you won't put up with her crap. No injury. No hard feelings. She gave me a kiss about 30 seconds later.

So you sit there, safe in your home, and question my methods and their necessity. You judge my motives and ability to humanely train dogs that you know nothing about. If you really think about it, you will see how ridiculous it is.


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## Baillif

David Winners said:


> Fama was good with voice commands too. When she came out of the kennel ready to fight, there wasn't but 2 choices. Win or lose. When a dog like this goes into fight mode and you are the target, there is no voice command or leash pop that is going to make a difference to the dog. It is going to eat you. We worked it out and became BFFs.
> 
> There are plenty of very strong dogs that are not like this. It's hard to explain, but there is no personal connection with these dogs at first. They are kennel dogs until they spend some time on a handler.
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners


There is a huge malinois in our kennel that has been with his handler for almost 4 years (since puppyhood) and I'm convinced he doesn't give a crap if anyone handler included is around short of taking commands or someone to bite or play tug with. He's on another planet and the only way to snap him back to our reality is to give commands and send him to a bite. When he does decide to acknowledge we even exist it's usually to give a quick lick or bounce off us bruiser style and go back to whatever he was doing. Does his job and doesn't care to show any kind of connection.


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## my boy diesel

slam then you helped finish it off with 
your cookies comments
why does it always go like this?
just because some of us believe you can train a dog 
more effectively without brutalizing it?
i never said dont use physical correction
but the scenarios described defy belief
you dont toss dogs around just because 
quote unquote thats what trainers do
or worse yet
they should be able to take it
after all they are gsds

david winners at least has a legit reason 
to do what he did
the rest seem **** bent on playing macho man


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## David Winners

It's a departmental thing, as far as I know, concerning multi dog households. 

The picture painted by the OP is not very pretty, which is why I suggest they check it out.

I've seen all ranges of handlers. If something is shady, the department should be contacted in a tactful manner IMO.


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## David Winners

Baillif said:


> There is a huge malinois in our kennel that has been with his handler for almost 4 years (since puppyhood) and I'm convinced he doesn't give a crap if anyone handler included is around short of taking commands or someone to bite or play tug with. He's on another planet and the only way to snap him back to our reality is to give commands and send him to a bite. When he does decide to acknowledge we even exist it's usually to give a quick lick or bounce off us bruiser style and go back to whatever he was doing. Does his job and doesn't care to show any kind of connection.


That's a KNPV dog I bet. They don't really care about anything but a reward and avoiding punishment. They build some animals.

I'll take my thinking dog GSDs on the street. JMO


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## nikon22shooter

boomer11 said:


> you sure like to talk down to people. do you own a police dog since i guess you're the expert? dont you own a border collie and a little pup? arent you the one who thinks an ecollar correction is the same as a jab with your fingers to the dogs neck??




I call it like I see it. You don't like it? Simple, don't read it. 



No, I do no own a police dog, but I have worked with enough to know the difference between a pet and a working dog unlike some people.

Yes, I'm the one who owns a border collie.

Yes, I'm the one who has a puppy, but I wouldn't call a 80lb pup little. 

Yes, I am the one who said a shock collar is just like how Cesar uses his jab. You use a shock collar to deliver a shock to stop a negative behavior. Just like Cesar uses a quick jab and his mouth "tisk" or whatever noise he makes to stop a negative behavior. I would love to hear your argument on how that is not the same. 



I also like long walks on the beach. My favorite color is red and I enjoy cuddling by an open fireplace. Anything else you want to know about me????


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## K9kodi

Trailrider;
I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to want to understand. Keep in mind that a correction needs to be relative to the offense. If a dog is handler aggressive and it's not immediately corrected by the handler you are in a sense letting slide and in a sick and twisted way, enforcing the dogs thinking that it is okay to turn on the handler. If you take that same theory and apply it to a dog fight, or possible dog fight. If it's not stopped correctly and according to the level of offense the dog will continue that behavior, more so, it allows the dog to believe that they got away with it.

As for the kennels, there are a few different schools of thought, but dogs that stay outside, are done so for a reason. That school of thought is simple. A police dog stays in his kennel bc they work for a few things, praise, toy, food, fight/bite. If you allow that dog the ability to have some of those things without earning it it takes away his work drive. Consider those pay checks. He's getting paid for nothing. This is extremely important for a green/unproven dog. After that dog learns the importance of working and learns to do it out of desire you can relax on it a bit


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## boomer11

nikon22shooter said:


> I call it like I see it. You don't like it? Simple, don't read it.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do no own a police dog, but I have worked with enough to know the difference between a pet and a working dog unlike some people.
> 
> Yes, I'm the one who owns a border collie.
> 
> Yes, I'm the one who has a puppy, but I wouldn't call a 80lb pup little.
> 
> Yes, I am the one who said a shock collar is just like how Cesar uses his jab. You use a shock collar to deliver a shock to stop a negative behavior. Just like Cesar uses a quick jab and his mouth "tisk" or whatever noise he makes to stop a negative behavior. I would love to hear your argument on how that is not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> I also like long walks on the beach. My favorite color is red and I enjoy cuddling by an open fireplace. Anything else you want to know about me????


nope. just wanted to make sure everyone knew that the internet is indeed filled with wannabe experts  except most of them dont talk down to people like you


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## MadLab

> I never said I would helicopter a dog. I ask you to stop putting words in my mouth.


To me slamming from a height is the same style so why have one with out the other. Have you never heard of military or le helicoptering a dog. I'm sure it's done too.



> I didn't recommend a height. as a matter of fact, I said it was lower then head height.


Actually you said


> The height from which this is done is in direct proportion to the mental state of the dog and severity of the infraction, like any correction.





> You judge my motives and ability to humanely train dogs that you know nothing about.


I'm not questioning your ability to humanely train dogs. But is everybody like you in LE and military. You should have some standards. Slamming a dog from 7 feet should be frowned upon from yourself and others and not an accepted 'correction' as you call it.

Can't you breed some dogs and bring them up so they don't want to bite you? There does seem to be a degree of masochism in taming the green imports by any means necessary.

Going into combat with dog released from cage. Ever though of using a muzzle or a leash?


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## Slamdunc

my boy diesel said:


> slam then you helped finish it off with
> your cookies comments
> why does it always go like this?
> just because some of us believe you can train a dog
> more effectively without brutalizing it?
> i never said dont use physical correction
> but the scenarios described defy belief
> you dont toss dogs around just because
> quote unquote thats what trainers do
> or worse yet
> they should be able to take it
> after all they are gsds
> 
> david winners at least has a legit reason
> to do what he did
> the rest seem **** bent on playing macho man


Well, as it turns out I know the dogs and the handler. What the OP didn't realize was the handler had just stepped in to break up a fight that the GSD started with the Mali. Normally, the dogs get along but are only together supervised. The handler stepped in to break up the fight when the GSD grabbed the Mali's tail. It is pretty much as I described it in my original posts. You really need to go back and read them. This is not a normal event nôr a normal correction. Knowing the GSD there are only a few people that could handle him. He hospitalized his first handler and was returned for severe handler aggression. This handler did an outstanding job rehabilitating this dog and working him. Hôwever, you can modify behavior but you can not change genetics or temperament. This dog can be as serious as a heart attack and has no issues eating a weak handler. The dog is also pretty hard and bounces back very quickly. This correction did not injure this dog. 

Why do threads go like this? Because people expect all working dogs to be poodłes. Some dogs will fight because they feel challenged, some dogs will redirect to the handler because they are over loaded. Discussing this on a forum where some folks picture MWDs or Patrol Dogs as lassie is ridiculous. Fact is Lassie would be a crappy patrol or working dog. I don't know how else to explain to those that have never been in the situation. And yes, you do need to experience dogs like these to understand. FWIW, I think Cesar Milan is often way to harsh on dogs.


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## MadLab

> FWIW, I think Cesar Milan is often way to harsh on dogs.


lol


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## Baillif

It's actually Fito loups du soleil. A dog out of Michael Ellis' kennel. Bites are almost a form of therapy for him. He's given me the worst decoying injuries ice ever had through a practice suit. Knocks me on my ass on face attacks with leg strikes even when I'm expecting it. I've still got those weird swelling/fluid things from where bad compressions cause the fat cell membranes to bust and leave gaps where fat cells used to be. Happened on defense of handler sessions and has been like that for 3 weeks. I have a picture of it it's pretty brutal.


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## nikon22shooter

boomer11 said:


> nope. just wanted to make sure everyone knew that the internet is indeed filled with wannabe experts  except most of them dont talk down to people like you



Ain't that the truth, Amen to that. 

My dog can sit and balance a treat on his nose. Doesn't that make me a world class handler 

Takes respect to get respect. I've been talking to a bunch of people on this forum. Only a few have a problem with my approach and I've noticed it seems to be all the people whose arguments are emotionally rather than logical and avoids facts. Good day sir, make sure you hit up Wikipedia for your next thread otherwise you may not be the smartest person in the thread.


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## boomer11

nikon22shooter said:


> Because you have no idea what your talking about. You have ZERO experience in this matter. You may as well give Lebron James advice on how to dunk.





nikon22shooter said:


> Working with a actual working dog that has no fear or submission. A dog trained for blood. Your emotional responses show your intelligence on the matter. Which is next to none.





nikon22shooter said:


> Have you ever worked with a K9 working dog? I would be interested to hearing your history on such a topic.
> 
> Since your response was completely emotional I'm guessing you have zero experience on the matter.


i love how you talk down to people giving you work in IT and act like you've been around police dogs and have tons of experience. hahahhaha did you really tell other people they have zero experience in this matter? you wanted to quit your job to go scoop poop!



nikon22shooter said:


> I would start at the bottom, cleaning up poop and washing the dogs, and learning the basics of their program. But they said they need another trainer, not a pooper scooper. So I guess after 3-6 months of learning the basics, I would shadow their training program and help handle the dogs.
> 
> And no, I've never worked at a Kennel before, other than help out in a class or two, and taking photos of course.


this has nothing to do with this thread so im done. just wanted to call out someone who deserved it. what a joke. btw you're right, it takes respect to get respect.


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## lhczth

I can see this thread has gone down hill so time to be closed. 

ADMIN Lisa


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