# LE dogs-Why not go for the gun arm?



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I started a thread on another Cezch border guard board titled Why not attack the gun arm? I looks to me like sport dog people are training their dogs to go for the sleeve arm that is offered to them. This can lead to their death in a real fight with an armed bad guy who then shoots or stabs them with the other hand. So why not teach them to go for the weapon arm instead of teaching them not to regrip?
As it turns out this is done. Here is a great video 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCljuaYCOA-/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

This is also explained pretty well on the Working Dog Radio podcast ; episode 31 Ted and Eric Rant. And they get pretty passionate about why this is a dumb idea.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Just curious but are you also someone who thinks officers should shoot the bad guy in the arm or the leg?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

To whom are you speaking? Although I myself, as a nurse, would be inclined to shoot a bad guy in the leg, apply a tournquet and call 911, I have been instructed by many LE and others to aim for center mass in a self defense situation. 

When someone is brandishing a gun aiming at police or others and/or not following instructions to drop the gun then yes I think they should aim for center mass. If bad guy was pointing a gun at me I would aim for center mass. It hurts me to say this and I try not to think about it.

Personally, I took a vow to first do no harm. But I allow myself three reasons to do otherwise. 1. Self Defense, all creatures have this right. 2. To survive. I am a vegetarian but if I were in a plane crash in Alaska I would live on lemmings. 3. To put an animal out of its misery.

I have been reading lately about so many gallant police dogs that were killed by criminals with guns or knives. So I have seen Schutzhund and IPO exibits where the handlers offer the dog a bite on the sleeve and they loose points for letting go and regripping, when in a real fight the dog could be killed by a gun or knife held in the other hand. That why I asked some people on another board wo train LE and PPD and was shown this link.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

car2ner said:


> This is also explained pretty well on the Working Dog Radio podcast ; episode 31 Ted and Eric Rant. And they get pretty passionate about why this is a dumb idea.


Thanks. Where can this broadcast be found?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

We teach our dogs to target the center mass of the body part that they can get. Real K-9 trainers do not teach a dog to target the “weapon hand.” I spend a lot of time training our dogs to “push in” to a bite. To engage with power and to bite and hold. This is the proper way to train a patrol dog. The dog must be taught to push in to the bite. Some dogs have this genetically, some need to be taught how to target and how to “push in.” 

That video posted here is ok, but definitely not how I would train a dog to engage or fight. To say that dogs already “know how to bite” is not accurate. The guys in that video are mistaken on that point. That is like saying everyone knows how to punch or kick and there is no need to teach a boxer or a martial artist how to punch. That mentality would say all you need to teach a boxer is how to block. If you know anything about martial arts or boxing you would understand how wrong their statement is. 

Unlike, the “experts” on some other forums that in reality do not train or work dogs in a real world environment, some of us do and understand what is involved in training a dog to fight for real and engage a suspect. 

What I have found works best in the real world when a dog engages a suspect is commitment, pain compliance, speed and a powerful bite. What you saw in the video is poor training, IMHO. That kind of training will get a dog hurt, other cops bit and the dog will never be as effective as he can be. 

Nursebushop, please be careful with some of the information that you get from other forums. I’m pretty sure there are no active K-9 handlers on the forum you mentioned. Actually, there are few people, if any on that forum that actually train dogs or ever worked a dog in the street. There information is anecdotal at best and often third hand based on watching videos on YouTube.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I got a dog out there, who is retired now, who was on the Federal Fugitive Task Force (hope I got the name right). He and his owner, both retired now. But he told me that they like to use his dog because he air scents, vacuum scents I think he called it. But anyway, he said that sometimes a perp can come up from behind the dog when they are ground scenting. He told me about a dog, Killer who was dispatched a little ahead of his dog, and the dog was shot three times. When Morgan got to him, he missed the shoulder and brought him down with the neck. He was not shot (which is why I am not breeding for police dogs, I am not against k9s, but I hate to think of them getting killed like Killer did). 

At a dog show, my club, which usually recognizes local k9s and their handlers, they did a demo, and they explained that the dog is trained to grab extremities. A dog is not considered lethal, though the dog above did get the jugular and if they didn't riddle the guy with bullets, that probably would have killed him. You can call a dog off or back, you cannot call back a bullet. 

The idea of shooting a guy in the leg is ludicrous because if you are a good guy, you owe it to your family, folks, partner and community to come home at the end of the shift. If someone is pointing a gun at you, then you need to shoot to stop the threat, not to pick out lesser body parts to maim the guy long enough to get the gun away from him.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Slambunk, do you agree there is a difference between 'sport' dogs and working military and police dogs? The schutzhunds trials I see wagging their tails. They seem to be in prey drive. As far as members of that forum go, sure there are interested inexperienced members such as myself. But there are also real trainers from all over the world as I have seen their videos posted there. Sure, there are many opinions of dogs and dog training. I like the forum because it is small and also other subjects are discussed.

My own dog is a working ranch dog of WGSLs and schutzhunds. I don't know if she would actually bite anyone but she has acted like she would, dragging me forward toward the threat with aggressive barking. So far that is all it takes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The question is why sport people don't train the dog to target the weapon arm? 

1. Where in any sport will the helper have a weapon?
2. targeting the sleeve and maintaining grip is testing the grip and the willingness to bite and stay on the bite.
3. at what point will a sport dog engage in a real fight with a criminal?
4. for the vast majority of us, our sport dogs are our pets. The likelihood of us actually sending our dogs in to harms way is pretty slim.
5. the question is actually irrelevant to IPO .


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Thanks. Where can this broadcast be found?


 I use Player FM to listen to podcasts on my phone while out walking the dogs. I don't know which other podcast apps might carry it. You can also find them here :

Working Dog Radio ? Broadcasting The Bite


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> The question is why sport people don't train the dog to target the weapon arm?
> 
> 1. Where in any sport will the helper have a weapon?
> 2. targeting the sleeve and maintaining grip is testing the grip and the willingness to bite and stay on the bite.
> ...


I was told, and could be wrong, but Schutzhund is a breed test, to try a dogs temperament and health. IPO was the starting point and a dog that showed strength and good nerve could then move on and be trained in other areas. I compare it to High School and then moving onto college.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

car2ner said:


> I was told, and could be wrong, but Schutzhund is a breed test, to try a dogs temperament and health. IPO was the starting point and a dog that showed strength and good nerve could then move on and be trained in other areas. I compare it to High School and then moving onto college.


Sure. It's a breed test. Or was. Now it's a sport. 

How many IPO dogs do you know that have gone on to be K9's? 

----- I know ones that are not sport dogs, never titled and sold for K9's. I know ones that couldn't pass hips/elbows and were sold as K9's. I do not know any that titled in IPO and then went on to be K9's. At least not in this present day.

How many IPO dogs do you know that have gone on to be the breeding stock for SAR and K9's? 

------Numerous.

So, my comments are valid. The original question is irrelevant to IPO as the breed test or the sport.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, of course there is a difference between IPO training and training a MWD or a Police K-9. 

A dog wagging its tail just means it is excited. You view of a dog wagging its tail is a little off. All dogs wag their tails when they are excited, happy, nervous or seriously aggressive. 

Not all IPO dogs are prey monsters. My dog Boomer was a serious Patrol Dog and was also a National Level IPO Dog. He had a lot of street bites and bit full and hard every time. Boru bites very full and I could easily compete in IPO with him. He is a super high prey drive dog with a lot of fight drive. Helpers would hate to work him. 

Please do not believe this “sportism” nonsense you are reading. There is so much bad information out there and so many people just trying to hype what they are selling. When you get some more experience you will be able to look at videos of people’s dog training and realize some are very poor. Folks that knock sport work are usually people that lack the ability and skill to train and handle a dog at a high level. That is the simple truth. 

The talk and videos you refer to are by people that do not train LE working dogs and have never handled a dog on a real deployment. 

There are quite a few people whose posts you should read on this forum. There is far more experience, verifiable knowledge and serious working dog folks that post here than on other sites. 

Getting back to your original post; teaching a dog to re bite is wrong for many reasons. The video you posted is not good training for a LE K-9. It causes dogs to disengage and re engage causing more injuries and poor bites that would be less effective at gaining compliance from a suspect. The fact is that most people doing this lack the knowledge and skill to properly train a dog to bite. The statement made in the video or the comment section that dogs know how to bite with out training makes my point. 

What you see in the video is a frantic dog that fails to gain control of the suspect. Police work is a dangerous job for K-9s and Officers. I can tell you with absolute certainty that this kind of training will not help save dogs or Officers. Quite the opposite actually. Anyone training Poluce dogs like we saw in the video is doing the dogs and handlers a huge disservice and needs to spend some time with qualified K-9 handlers and trainers. 

JMO


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Slamdunc = Mike D. had a PD that was an IPO dog too many years ago. How many others do you know of that chose to, or was even in a position to, transition to a K9?

The question was why we don't teach our dogs to target a weapon arm. Not if we could teach them. Boomer came from a world level sire, national level female and his whole litter was exceptional. Many of the IPO dogs could be K9's. but back to the original question..why would we teach them that to do the sport? what would that prove?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I am asking why is the weapon arm not targeted? Yes you can get compliance from a perpetrator when a big bad police dog is biting them with a good grip but what if he has a gun and kills the dog? This is such a terrible waste when low life human beings who do not really deserve to draw breath take the lives of of excellent dogs. Creeps, when they see the dog coming for them will put up an arm, usually the left arm and the dog bites that. Then they shoot or stab the dog with the other arm/hand. Sure, K9s go and search on a long line with the officer but what if the guy is hiding in dense brush and has a weapon? What if the dog is sent on a building search and the guy has a weapon? I guess the best thing would be if the dog hit them so hard it sent them sprawling but good dogs are killed by these dirt bags. Don't dogs natural go for parts that are moving such as the gun arm?


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## deacon (Sep 5, 2011)

As I explained on the other thread Nurse Bishop, I primarily trained on the concealed wrap and muzzle. My partners for the most part when chasing down a bad guy grabbed what ever was available for the taking, or what part seem to entice them most at the time. I rarely train on the visible sleeve and just enough on the suit as I consider it an oversized visible sleeves to teach them there are other parts of the body readily available if need be.


You can train the arm all you like, but a good dog who is not afraid to fight a man will take any part of the body he so desires when he chases him down and catches up to him. That includes sitting, standing, or lying still as well.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Because targeting an arm is simply bad training. 

Pure and simple targeting an arm is poor training and more digs get hurt because they are dependent on arm bites. Bad guys don’t always show their weapon. 

A better idea is to recall the dog if a gun or knife is shown prior to or during the deployment. I’m sorry, but people that say they target the weapon hand have no clue about training in the real world. They also lack experience with Susie t actions and reactions to dogs. 

I’m not going into too much detail on a public forum regarding our training. Let me make one thing very clear, a trainer that focuses on targeting arms is handcuffing the dogs they train and setting g them up for failure. I can not stress this enough. 

The fact is that you need a skilled decoy, trainer and handler to work leg bites, frontals and armpit bites. You will have a hard time finding “sport or forum experts” that can do this. 

The whole concept of targeting the weapon hand is not practical in the real world, poor training and dangerous. Please stop listening to folks who promote this rubbish. It is the absolute worse training advice a person can get. 

Train a dog to bite with power, fly through the air to hit high on the back and knock a fleeing suspect face down. That is safe for a dog, safe for the handler and safer for the suspect. 

Teach a dog to bite high and hard on a frontal and push into the bite. That is safer for the dog and the handler. That takes skilled decoys which take time to train. You will not find that on your other forums. You will see a decoy that wears a motorcycle helmet when he decoys. Silly stuff and totally novice. 

I’ve said all I can say, targeting the weapon hand is poor training.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

It's not hard to make a dog miss an arm.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I am asking why is the weapon arm not targeted? Yes you can get compliance from a perpetrator when a big bad police dog is biting them with a good grip but what if he has a gun and kills the dog? This is such a terrible waste when low life human beings who do not really deserve to draw breath take the lives of of excellent dogs. Creeps, when they see the dog coming for them will put up an arm, usually the left arm and the dog bites that. Then they shoot or stab the dog with the other arm/hand. Sure, K9s go and search on a long line with the officer but what if the guy is hiding in dense brush and has a weapon? What if the dog is sent on a building search and the guy has a weapon? I guess the best thing would be if the dog hit them so hard it sent them sprawling but good dogs are killed by these POS. Don't dogs natural go for parts that are moving such as the gun arm?


I am going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe the people you are speaking with are confused? My protection dog was trained to go for the threat, but PPD's should not be trained to bite and hold nor is there a circumstance, in my experience, were they should be sent. The dogs we trained had a primary purpose to keep the handler safe. They cannot do that if they are sent out, they cannot do that if they are locked on a bite. 
Sabi would bite and hold unless/until a)the person moved away b)another threat presented c)I outed her. Her training dictated that in most cases she would move on a hand holding a weapon because her job was to neutralize or get rid of a threat to me. 
The nature and reality of the work would mean LE dogs would be trained differently, they have a different purpose.
I suspect that people watching training videos confuse the training of different dogs since they have no real world experience to draw on. And I have seen a good many PPD trainers that should not be training squirrels.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

NurseBishop, I also liked Deacon’s comments about dog usually biting the first or closest body part presented. And I have trained and handled LE dogs. As Slam says, you have to be careful as to source and actual experience of people giving information in dogs. Often today I see misinformation on a forum, and don’t comment, because there are just some folks that are dogmatic about what they believe even though folks with far more knowledge/experiences in the area try to educate them&#55358;&#56631;*♀


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Slamdunk "Please stop listening to folks who promote this rubbish. It is the absolute worse training advice a person can get. "

Respectfully, no one is promomoting this rubbish. I thought of it myself after seeing Schutzhunds going for the sleeve in trials. The decoy is hitting them with a rubber stick. It could just as easily be a knife or gun in the real world. But now I realize schutzhund is a test for breedworthiness and not what goes on the the real world of LE dog training. I suppose that good vests and body armor are a good way to protect dogs from armed lowlifes.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I have been trying to educate myself online about the differences in dog sports. I found this explaination> An Overview of the Differences Between IPO/Schutzhund and KNPV https://www.facebook.com/notes/siam...tween-iposchutzhund-and-knpv/770355006377280/

"Schutzhund and KNPV are both popular dog sports. Schutzhund /IPO started in Germany. KNPV originated in Holland nearly 100 years ago initially as the Dutch Police certification program.

Schutzhund was developed by a man named Stephanitz who was very active in the development of the German Shepherd. Schutzhund was initially developed to allow for the testing of the suitability of German Shepherds for breeding. It was intended to gauge the character and working capability of a dog.

It has since developed into an international sport in the form of IPO where allowing for various working breeds 

The KNPV while originally designed as the program for training police dogs has today become a sport and with KNPV standing for Royal Dutch Police Dog Sports. Dogs trained in KNPV have a good foundation to go on to police work, but require further certificationand training for civilian protection work before doing so. In this sense KNPV represents a more practical form of protection training a dog than IPO.

The KNPV while originally designed as the program for training police dogs has today become a sport and with KNPV standing for Royal Dutch Police Dog Sports. Dogs trained in KNPV have a good foundation to go on to police work, but require further certificationand training for civilian protection work before doing so. In this sense KNPV represents a more practical form of protection training a dog than IPO.



There is a great deal of difference in the training and the exercises contained within the IPO program and the KNPV program. As an example KNPV protection work involves a dog biting on a suit. The attack is much tougher than an IPO attack, and the exercises are more numerous. The complexity of protection training is also greater involving exercises such as a recall from attack where the dog is called back before the attack, and a false attack where the decoy stops runningand stands still. The dog must not bite at this point. 



IPO protection involves a stylistic search of blinds followed by a bark and hold, escape (runaway by the decoy) several transports and a long attack down a field in a straight line. The dog is taught to only bite a sleeve. A judge will down grade an IPO dog for a bite grip that is not full and firm. 



A KNPV judge is not really concerned with whether a dog has a mouthy bite as long as it doesn’t drop off the bite. Unlike IPO KNPV has other protection related exercises such as object guarding, where a dog guards an object, bites a thief trying to take the object and then returns to guard the object, all without the presence of the handler. The dog must also not be aggressive to innocent passers by.



KNPV does not have tracking in the PH 1 or PH 2 certification program although a separate tracking certificate that also includes scent discrimination can be undertaken. KNPV has exercises such as searching for a hidden decoy in a forest and finding a box hidden in a field or forest. KNPV also has an area search where the dog findsand brings back small metal objects left on a field. (such as guns?)

As I mentioned earlier Schutzhund/IPO was originally developed as a test for dogs for breeding. As part of the program for a dog to compete at a high level it must have a pedigree. KNPV dogs do not need to have a pedigree, and the majority do not. Most KNPV dogs these days are non-pedigree Malinois, followed by non-pedigree Dutch Shepherds and the occasional German Shepherd. Of course there are pedigree dogs in the program but they are less numerous.

KNPV originally had three primary levels of certification. PH 1 (Police Dog 1) this was a high-level complete title program. PH 2 (Police Dog 2) which was a repeat of PH1 with several additional more complex exercises added such as a multiple decoy exercise, and Object Guarding, which was an abbreviated form in PH 1. Within PH 1 there was also a conditional certificate for dogs with a marginal pass requiring a retest within a year. Dogs with exceptional scores above a certain threshold are awarded metlof (with honor) after their title. In recent years a Basic Certificate has been added to the program to entice beginners to enter the program. This is a highly attenuated program geared toward basic obedience and protection. The exercisesin the KNPV exam cover obedience, protection and object guarding. The exercise compared to IPO are numerous with the scoring in PH 1 being a maximum of 440 and 455 in PH 2.

IPO/Schutzhund has three levels. 1, 2 and 3. IPO 3 is the highest. A dog must first pass a BH test which is now a title as well, which consists of a good portion of the IPO 1 obedience program. The dog is also checked for character and stability. The BH is a prerequisite to the next level of IPO. The various levels of IPO are similar but of increasing complexity in the exercises in each part. IPO title requirements are divided into three sections A (Tracking) B(Obedience) C(protection). Each section is scored 100 points. A dog with a score of less than 70 percent in any section will be failed on the overall exam. It is possible to test for an individual section only, but this results in a partial title only.

This comparison of the two sports is by no means exhaustive or comprehensive, but is intended to present an overview of the character of the two sports. We hope that we have spurred your interest and that you will take the time to further investigate these two very interesting dog sports."

...............................................................................

Here is says KNPV PH2 (Police dog 2) the test requires the dog to deal with multiple attackers. A dog could not be doing bite and hold if he had to deal with multiple attackers. I would like to see these tests.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

*dojoson41*

Hello. I am new here but I wondered that myself. I know that there are training instructors that teach both these methods. My dog is a lover not a biter and with his beautiful attitude that I don’t want to train him to attack anyone (in my state it doesn’t matter if your dog is protecting you-any dog bite for any reason is a death sentence so you will need the best lawyer out there to defend your dog). I don’t want him to change, all I need him to do is bark, sound big/threatening to alert me, give me time to call 911 and make the guy think twice before entering my home or 357 will do the rest. To ME I see Schutzhund as mostly a breed conformation/temperament test. So what is the best or should I say safest for the dog? Weapon hand or not? I will continue to read and learn but on the lighter side I say if it’s a man- the crotch;]


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> 2. To survive. I am a vegetarian but if I were in a plane crash in Alaska I would live on lemmings.


I didn't read the posts, feeling ill with a fever and not up for reading pages. I HAVE to ask though...in Alaska....why the lemmings? lol Being so rich in game a prey both large and small, and lots of fish...what made lemmings pop into your mind?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Far north Alaska, the Arctic. There are lots of lemmings (some years so many they go off the cliffs into the sea). They are easy to catch.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

dojoson41 said:


> Hello. I am new here but I wondered that myself. I know that there are training instructors that teach both these methods. My dog is a lover not a biter and with his beautiful attitude that I don’t want to train him to attack anyone (in my state it doesn’t matter if your dog is protecting you-any dog bite for any reason is a death sentence so you will need the best lawyer out there to defend your dog). I don’t want him to change, all I need him to do is bark, sound big/threatening to alert me, give me time to call 911 and make the guy think twice before entering my home or 357 will do the rest. To ME I see Schutzhund as mostly a breed conformation/temperament test. So what is the best or should I say safest for the dog? Weapon hand or not? I will continue to read and learn but on the lighter side I say if it’s a man- the crotch;]


You are not in law enforcement so I'd say neither. What state are you in? Most GSDs will make people think twice about bothering you just by being with you. When a stranger comes to the door most will bark. Many of us have to teach our dogs to STOP barking once they have alerted us. Remember, the dog isn't protecting us. They are alerting us. We actually protect them. It is because we are a team that makes most "bad guys" look for easier targets.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

OK I looked up this KNPV PH2 (Dutch Police dog 2) and I found this great video of part of the test called Object Guarding. The handler wheels a bicycle with a GSD at heel, walks out on a lawn and lays down the bicycle. He puts the dog in a down, says something to him and walks away. Then, assorted people wander by the bicycle and the dog looks at them and does nothing. Then a guy comes and tries to feed the dog hotdogs. He smells one but does not eat it. He throws down another, dog ignors it, then tosses one away from the dog to see if he would leave. He does not. The guy goes away. Then he comes back and starts to pick up the bike. Like lightning the dog strikes his arm and hangs on. The struggle goes off camera then the dog comes back by himself. He lies down next to the bike. I could not find one about multiple attackers test.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

KNPV is a very good sport, it is the most realistic preparation for Police Work. Even with that said, there are many things a KNPV dog needs to be taught and even retrained in to be a functioning Police K-9. My dog Boru came from Holland with a PH1. A KNPV title from his previous training. He needed a lot of retraining to get him to work the way we want a Police K-9 to work. 

Reading multiple attackers, we train this as it is a practical exercise to teach a dog. It is much different than disengaging an arm to go for the other arm. The dog in the video you posted was barely committed to the bite, not doing much of anything to stop the attack. The difference is the power and commitment, sometimes violence does solve problems. The dog in the first video was not solving anything by letting go and re gripping continuously. That is why teaching a dog to transition to the weapon hand is poor and unrealistic training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You should just go out and see some dogs bite in person Nurse Bishop. Slam's mentioned commitment more then once. It doesn't matter if its a sleeve or suit, you can see how committed a dog is. Personally I think some people want to get too cute with the training and that's one of the things you'll run the risk of effecting. Having the dog think too much about something like which hand, I'd worry about the dog hesitating to do anything or the dog worrying enough that he's going to hesitate to even engage.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> OK I looked up this KNPV PH2 (Dutch Police dog 2) and I found this great video of part of the test called Object Guarding. The handler wheels a bicycle with a GSD at heel, walks out on a lawn and lays down the bicycle. He puts the dog in a down, says something to him and walks away. Then, assorted people wander by the bicycle and the dog looks at them and does nothing. Then a guy comes and tries to feed the dog hotdogs. He smells one but does not eat it. He throws down another, dog ignors it, then tosses one away from the dog to see if he would leave. He does not. The guy goes away. Then he comes back and starts to pick up the bike. Like lightning the dog strikes his arm and hangs on. The struggle goes off camera then the dog comes back by himself. He lies down next to the bike. I could not find one about multiple attackers test.


 
There's a scenario like this in Mondioring, I think. We have a lady who brings her Terv in to practice with our decoy. The dog is taught that people can pass by but once they get into a certain distance or attempt to touch the object, the dog can strike. As soon as the person gets out of that small perimeter, the dog has to let go and return to guarding. 

You might be able to find a Mondioring scenario with multiple attackers on YouTube. I'm at work otherwise I'd search for one. The dog isn't allowed to strike until the decoy/helper makes an attempt to harm the handler. They'll even try to trick the dog into biting the wrong decoy. 

It is really cool to watch in person.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The last thing I want my dog wondering about during a fight is if it should come off a bite under any circumstance other than an out from me on the way in. I don't even want them really thinking about that once they are in the fight. Once I get there and get hands on the dog and in it's ear, they can start letting daddy take over. The best chance the dog has is violence of action and controlling the threat as much as possible. This is best achieved through high torso and upper arm bites and following through with as much fight as the dog has. A dog typewritering around the threat, grabbing anything that moves is not as effective as a solid bite and takedown. I don't want the dog dancing around grabbing different targets while the threat has mobility. I want the dog to hurt the threat as much as possible.

Sometimes a dog is sent into a dangerous situation. Sometimes they get injured or killed in doing so. It is the nature of the job. Yes, as a handler, the safety of my dog falls right under the safety of my team, but they are specifically there to take some of the human risk away and place it on the dog. Yes, they perform some functions better than a human, such as detection and tracking, but in a fight, they are no match for a determined threat. They are there to slow the threat down and distract them until the handler arrives, hopefully with some help.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Give the bad guy something to think about just long enough to billy club him over the head.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Thank you for helping me realize the Schutzhund/IPO are breed tests not real world tests and KNPV is more of a real world test. The dogs don't even have to be pedigreed.

Isn't it the instinct for a dog to go for what is moving? So if he is biting on one arm and the other hand moves to do harm to the dog (or handler) doesn't the dog go for that and doesn't really have to be trained to go for the weapon arm? 

I notice the helpers in many vids with dog on sleeve are hitting the dog woth a rubber rod but their hand is held inclose and their arm does not really move.

OK I just saw Mr. Winters post and Bailifs most satisfying video and that explains it. Hit hard, bite hard and don't let go until dad arrives. That about covers it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

So it is really best for the dog to charge and leap on the bad guy with an upper arm or high torso bite. That would have the best chance of knocking them down. If he went for his lower leg the threat would have more opportunity to injure the dog. Dinkying around biting various parts would be a disadvantage.

Heres a question. Are bitches ever used for patrol dogs? They are smaller and lighters and lack the testosterone.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The actual "Real" part of all of it, is the dog. Trying to dissect routines and training like you are, kinda overlooks that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> So it is really best for the dog to charge and leap on the bad guy with an upper arm or high torso bite. That would have the best chance of knocking them down. If he went for his lower leg the threat would have more opportunity to injure the dog. Dinkying around biting various parts would be a disadvantage.
> 
> Heres a question. Are bitches ever used for patrol dogs? They are smaller and lighters and lack the testosterone.


The good ones are.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

car2ner said:


> You are not in law enforcement so I'd say neither. What state are you in? Most GSDs will make people think twice about bothering you just by being with you. When a stranger comes to the door most will bark. Many of us have to teach our dogs to STOP barking once they have alerted us. Remember, the dog isn't protecting us. They are alerting us. We actually protect them. It is because we are a team that makes most "bad guys" look for easier targets.








In my line of work here in NJ Iwork with the police but they of course love GSDs so I don’t have to worryabout them. I am working on scent/nose work and looking to set my dog up withTracking. I live in the boonies/woods so we get the occasional trespasserslooking to steal farm equipment/generators etc. Out here neighbors can’t seeyou so we all have air horn to alert each other when needed-one has a good oldfashion school bell LOL. Then the ATV Calvary (some cops/military/firedepartment volunteers) heads towards homes with seniors or single moms withkids first some do sweeps in the area=nice. Your right I would prefer my dog to just alert me, I don’t want him toget hurt. At this time he does not bark when people come to the door-I had neighbors he hasn’t met knock on the door or ringthe doorbell a few times but he will get the hang of it plus I am teaching himto also bark and hush on cue.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> So it is really best for the dog to charge and leap on the bad guy with an upper arm or high torso bite. That would have the best chance of knocking them down. If he went for his lower leg the threat would have more opportunity to injure the dog. Dinkying around biting various parts would be a disadvantage.
> 
> *Heres a question. Are bitches ever used for patrol dogs? They are smaller and lighters and lack the testosterone. *


My son played football in high school and thought pretty highly of himself and his abilities. He had gotten a new ball and was outside teasing one of our girls with it getting her amped up. I warned him to stop, but typical teen he carried on acting as though she was the defense and she couldn’t stop him. Well she did and she took him down hard. She grabbed his jeans (no skin) and just slung him down. No injuries, but his ego took a hit, at least momentarily. My son is 6’1” about 195 lbs and fit, how she managed it without leverage, momentum, and the benefit of testosterone is beyond me :grin2:

I’m sure finding males suitable for police work is less difficult, but I’m gonna guess purposely breed litters might have some capable females every now and then.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Nigel said:


> My son played football in high school and thought pretty highly of himself and his abilities. He had gotten a new ball and was outside teasing one of our girls with it getting her amped up. I warned him to stop, but typical teen he carried on acting as though she was the defense and she couldn’t stop him. Well she did and she took him down hard. She grabbed his jeans (no skin) and just slung him down. No injuries, but his ego took a hit, at least momentarily. My son is 6’1” about 195 lbs and fit, how she managed it without leverage, momentum, and the benefit of testosterone is beyond me :grin2:
> 
> I’m sure finding males suitable for police work is less difficult, but I’m gonna guess purposely breed litters might have some capable females every now and then.


I did hear that the reason females are not used as street K9s is because they are harder to call off a bite. 

And, Rudyard Kipling did write:
“For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.” : )


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Overall, I would bet the best females are not going to be for sale to law enforcement. They have a lot more value then what they'll pay.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Findlay said:


> I did hear that the reason females are not used as street K9s is because they are harder to call off a bite.
> 
> And, Rudyard Kipling did write:
> “For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.” : )


We rarely see females offered for sale from vendors as potential patrol dogs. One reason, as Steve correctly mentions is that a really good female is worth more to a breeder that a one time sale. The dog have several litters and produce many dogs for sale. The really good females are generally kept back by the breeders in Europe. 

I've seen some really excellent detection dogs that were females but only a couple of Patrol dogs. 

Females are not harder to call of a bite that is a misconception. Another misconception some people say are that females are too protective of their handlers and won't leave them or search at a distance on their own. Simply not true. 

Females are generally not harder or more aggressive than male dogs. 

I would have no issue selecting a nice female for Patrol work if I found one with all the right traits and temperament. 

Some things that make males advantageous for Patrol work are their size, aggression, and no heat cycles to deal with. We do not neuter our patrol dogs.


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