# Linebreeding on Fero and Troll



## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

How much impact does a 5-5 or 4-4 linebreeding have on a dog's development?

My dog is linebred 5-5 on Fero and 4-4 on Troll von der bosen Nachbarschaft (as well as 5-5 on Askia vom Froschgraben and 5-4 on Datsy vom Gries).

My dog has a somewhat hectic prey drive, which I've read is associated with linebreeding on Fero, but doesn't appear to have any of the environmental issues associated with Fero.

Are these behaviors pre-determined by genetics or the result of upbringing and/or training?

It's difficult for me to believe that character traits of a great-great-great-grandfather, or grandmother, would impact a dog's behavior more than the dog's parents and/or current environment.

A 4-4 or 5-5 linebreeding seems even less likely to have a significant clinical impact if subsequent relatives don't have similar behavior issues.

Nonetheless, many posts mention Fero linebreeding as a negative.

Thanks for any thoughts, comments!


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

I assume you mean that the dog is 4-4 on Troll v.d. Boesen Nachbarschaft, and that there is no additional path to Fero. I know the pedigreedatabase site will list everything through the 5th generation that is the same, but it is not really right to list the ancestors of the first linebred dog unless there is another appearance of that ancestor through another path.

BTW - I like Troll. I knew the breeder, dam, puppies etc. of the C-litter vom Maerchenwald (Cora went back to Germany and did well in the BSP, some of her littermates stayed local and trained/titled nearby). This litter was much better than anything else the dam produced with other sires.

So, 4-4 Troll means that Troll makes up twice as much of the pedigree as he would if he only appeared once. That is about the same percentage as if he appeared once in the 3rd generation instead of the 4th, although the genes may not line up exactly the same way.

I was warned about possible teeth and hip problems with doubling up on Troll.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As Uniballer said, your dog is linebred on Troll, not on Fero. Troll produced more the type of his mother than of his sire. I would be looking at other parts of the pedigree, other dogs for the hectic behaviors. I would also be far more concerned with the linebreeding on Dasty Gries than Troll. I have had very negative experiences with Dasty up close (son, grandkids). A dog I avoid like the plaque.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

What are the problems with Dasty offspirng? 

All I have found on forum searches are concerns re grips.

Does your experience suggest that a great-great grandfather and a great-great-great grandfather linebreeding transmits behavior consistently?

It seems that such distant relatives would not be important, unless closer relatives (ie parents) also possessed the traits.

Thanks.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

oc1979 said:


> It seems that such distant relatives would not be important, unless closer relatives (ie parents) also possessed the traits.


In general, I agree that it shouldn't be super important. But. Sometimes genes do funny things. I believe that there really are traits that skip generations. Some traits might be much more likely to be inherited on the direct male or female lines (i.e. top or bottom of the pedigree). Etc.

On the other hand, my limited experience with dogs whose parents I have known for 4 generations are that they are almost completely predictable in the work. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you know.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> What are the problems with Dasty offspirng?


Nerves showing up as a lack of clarity. Dogs that got into a situation that made them unsure or uncomfortable who chewed up their handlers (one grandson was just being put away in his kennel). Dogs so terrified of people that had to be put down at a young age. Dogs showing serious aggression to people they have known all of their lives (the one was 6 years old). Basically, a total lack of stability. You would have had to have seen these dogs/puppies to fully appreciate what I am describing.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My 8year old male is linebred 3-3 on Fero. High prey drive and high energy as well. He's a constant mover and spinner and barker if he doesn't get enough stimulation (even as a senior). No environmental issues at all, really solid nerve and temperament. Take him to fairs and festivals, parades, lunch, etc. Loves people, children, pretty much everything except other dominant male dogs, and cats (Which he likes too much). 

Love him.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

I wonder if some aspects of dog behavior are similar to some human diseases?

Although you inherit a genetic predisposition to a disease, disease expression depends on the environment you're exposed to. 

I suppose linebreeding increases your chances for expressing that trait.

Thanks for your responses.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

This is the pedigree for a repeat breeding I have a deposit on. We also have a male that is out of the same dam. Plus we had another female also from the same dam. If you click on the dam (Baghira) you can see she is linebred of Fero, Troll, Fado von Karthago, Arek vom Stoffelblick and Askia vom Froschgraben. I am getting this pup because of our prior experience with Baghira's offspring and how much we like her, I wasn't really buying based on the pedigree per se, but I'm good with it. Pups are due in about 3 weeks, so I'll let ya know .
Layla von Hugelblick - German shepherd dog


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

No issue here with Troll or Fero.

Gabor's dog, Drigon, was a Troll gs. Exact carbon copy of him to the bitework and looks. Rock solid temperament, not hectic, intense. Lot of fight drive. He liked the breeding, based on experience and exposure to both Troll and Timmy 1st hand and what they produced.

Enzo is back to Fero, through Cliff. Fight drive, also from Illo.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

That is encouraging.

Thanks.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

My main stud dog Zavien has all the dog's in his pedigree that you mentioned, but has a 3-2 on Dasty and that's it. I happen to Love his pedigree and him!!!! I don't think you could go wrong....


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks.


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## EnlightenedOne (Feb 7, 2011)

Yes, love those types of dogs. A “real” dog that requires an understanding of behavior and not just training. There are a few people capable of such a temperament. Today’s GSD are soft. JMHO


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Bad nerves and handler aggression do not equate to a "real dog" Dogs leaking prey, screaming in frustration do not equate to a "real dog" Combined with extreme prey and in the hands of competition driven handler/trainers they OFTEN become successful competition dogs and are bred. Dogs who retaliate on their handlers for corrections when in drive (I watched a few go for the belly and neck of their handlers, not just a hand redirection) are not desirable animals to use for breeding.

I value solid temperament and clarity above titles, trophies and points.

JMHO

Lee


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## EnlightenedOne (Feb 7, 2011)

That’s what makes this world a beautiful place....individual likes and dislikes. The same way you poo poo HA and dogs with extreme drives. That’s my definition of a Ol time GSF. OK, to be be completely frank..maybe minus the HA. But that is just a rank dog or one who has been treated undairly. Your type of dog is what you like and can handle. I can respect that. 

The few top people i highly respect in the sport and in other countries like the type of dog I like. And if we remember Ol German terminology ....Sharp was and is to a select few a desireable trait. 

To each his own, just stating my views and likes. 

I’ll stay loyal to one trainer in the game. His record speaks for itself. He also happens to like the same type of dogs. 

To all here the very best this was not a source of contentious rebellion.

JMHO


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## EnlightenedOne (Feb 7, 2011)

One more thing, you say bad nerves. I say low thresholds for aggression backed by confidence. ?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What people here fail to add into the equation of what they "like" - especially based on experience or relationships with European breeders and trainers - they rarely LIVE with their dogs....these dogs are kenneled, the OCD behaviors, pacing, spinning are not a factor in their choosing a dog to breed or to buy...some of these breeders have a dozen dogs living in crates in a building out side the house or in sheds/runs at a club...situations that here, if we saw, we would be horrified. 

And yes, I do like a dog I can live with ......I don't have dogs because I like the sport of whatever it is being called this year....my identity is not wrapped with with success in competition. I do the sport because I like the German Shepherd Dog and my own dogs and I learn about their ability and character through the sport. I really doubt that the intention of the ideal dog was to breed one who was a hectic animal who could not settle and who would retaliate or attack their handler....so yes, I can definitely say I value temperament, character and ability over extreme drive that is hectic....after all, you can have that drive without the bat caca crazy additions....I have a dog like that sitting here - and only personal circumstances have kept him from being high profile....

Lee


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Jumping in here because I really liked the info concerning the pedigree and info on linebreeding and now a question that I have concerning my understanding of what strong nerves are.

I understand "low threshold" quite well (I think) and also confidence and aggression and why the need for both when Max was developing the breed.

Based on my understanding it seems that an equation low threshold for aggression combined with confidence isn't something that can or maybe (should is a better word) be combined. 

An example of low threshold was offered in a thread long ago about the degree of civility in a dog. It went like this:

A guy and a girl sitting at a bar. Joe comes in and eyes the girl, comes up and makes threats towards both. The guy sitting does nothing and hope Joe goes away. 

Same scinario but as Joe is walking towards them, the guy stands up to face Joe. Joe goes away, the guy sits down

Same scinario but as Joe takes a couple steps in the door, the guy stands up rushes to Joe and threatens that if he dares even look at the girl he'll have a problem. Joe leaves the bar

Same scenario but as soon as Joe enters, the guy rushes Joe and attacks.

Obviously in the story, the guy sitting is a GSD.

So how much civility in a GSD is actually required to get the job done and still be considered safe and how much confidence is needed to keep a clear head?

In my very limited knowledge and very humble opinion, good breeders who know their lines are always working towards a balance. 

There is a huge difference between bad nerves and degrees of civility that most (Including myself) would not be able to recognize. It's something to keep in mind.


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