# Shutzhund and PPD



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

A dog that has been trained for PPD, can do SchH after?
There is something in the style of the first that will compete or be against the protection required for Schutzhund?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Schutzhund and PPD*

PPD dogs typically can be more nervy, def. more civil. Some are out of fear, some not. If you train for PPD, it can be very hard to do schutzhund as you can have issues with the dog NOT focusing on equipment and too much on the person. Isn't a bad thing, but can make it hard when you dog comes off the sleeve early and goes for the decoys face or other parts (Isa, god bless her, lol).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I've known several dogs cross trained SchH and PPD, but whether it works or not really depends on the temperament of the dog and type of PPD training. All the ones I've known to successfully do both started in SchH training, and then branched out later on into PPD work. Done that way, with the right training and the right dog, the SchH work lays a good foundation for PPD and the additional PPD training done later doesn't interfere with the SchH work. 

But I've never known a dog trained PPD first, then switched to SchH. Could work, depending on the dog and training, but might not. Biggest issue I could see is as Angela mentioned, the lack of equipment focus. The ideal dog for this sort of situation would be one who is sleeve sure, and thus will bite the sleeve and ONLY the sleeve when a sleeve is present. No sleeve, anything goes and dog can bite anywhere. But if the sleeve is there, the dog must target that and only that or else not only is it going to get booted from a trial but some helper is likely to get seriously injured. This is one reason why even though we do a lot of bitesuit work with our dogs we make sure they are sleeve sure before moving to the suit.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm interested in doing more UKC Dog Sport/SDA stuff but only after SchH b/c I think SchH is more stylized and precise (examples already given) so if I'm going to do both anyway, I'd rather do SchH first and then branch out for fun, especially as someone new to both.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We have a dog in our club that just earned her SchH2 that was trained in PPD first. It did cause some issues with the guarding both on the field and in the blind. The work they did taught the dog to return to the handler after the out. The female is still looky after the outs, but has very nice guarding in the blind now. That said, most dogs I know that are cross trained do SchH first.

On another note, I don't want a dog that is sleeve focused or looking at the sleeve during the guarding or after the outs in SchH. I want them looking at the man and in the fight with the man and not to win their toy. Spitting out the sleeve early and possibly biting the helper is a training issue, IMO.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I too want them focusing on the helper and not the equipment, but some dogs trained ppd take it to extreme and don't do well doing ppd first then sch training, imo.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WI too want them focusing on the helper and not the equipment,


Same here. A dog can focus on the man, but still remain sleeve sure when it comes to biting. That is ideal, IMO. I also prefer a dog who will bite for real, sans sleeve, but only if there is no sleeve present. For titles, not to mention safety of everyone, it's important that the dog will bite the sleeve and only the sleeve if there is a sleeve (and understands anywhere else is ok ONLY when there is NO sleeve). This is dog who can successfully do both without problems, and this is easiest to accomplish if the initial foundation is done using a sleeve. A dog who's foundation training has been that anywhere on the helper is fair game for a bite can certainly be problematic for a whole host of reasons.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I am training two young dogs for SDA style protection work without any Schutzhund training. All of our foundation work is being done on the sleeve.

My older dogs are being cross trained but are still getting a lot of sleeve work for training. I may be a nervous Nellie but I want 100 percent rock solid control before suit or muzzle work. 

I doubt if I will be teaching leg bites for reasons stated above. Kind of taking that one as we progress.

I think some dogs being trained in Personal Protection may be a little sharper then dogs being trained for schutzhund but I don't see a fearful dog standing up well to the civil agitation that is normally involved. I think if a dog is "nervy" in protection work they are going to be nervy regardless training venue. 

Very general statements of course!


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: Schutzhund and PPD*



> Originally Posted By: Angela_WPPD dogs typically can be more nervy, def. more civil. Some are out of fear, some not. If you train for PPD, it can be very hard to do schutzhund as you can have issues with the dog NOT focusing on equipment and too much on the person. Isn't a bad thing, but can make it hard when you dog comes off the sleeve early and goes for the decoys face or other parts (Isa, god bless her, lol).


defenitly more civil but all dogs whether PPD or any other sport all start on a sleeve. from all the dogs i have seen and worked so far, even police k9's, if you present the sleeve the dog will bite it. even some of the most civil dogs i have seen will still bite the equipment if it is presented..

for more civil dogs i would not put all my trust into a sleeve, i would be wearing a suit. so if the PPD is very civil and i wanted to do a sport, i wouldnt be doing SchH.


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