# drive/recall issue



## SchattenHaus (Oct 9, 2012)

hey guys so for starters i have a 5 month old pup. i realize she's only 5 months so I'm not too worried about our little issue and i never force my pup to do anything. i want her to have the ultimate confidence, i rarely correct her on her prong but sometimes i have to. in drive she is a very hard dog, anyway with that being said when i put her into drive with the ball and let her have it i cannot for the life of me get her to recall, i have to give her her down command and then get the ball from her out of a down. is this a bad habit or can i continue on with this method for now? ideally i would love her to COME whenever/whatever the circumstance. 
:help:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wouldn't use a prong on a dog that young. Right now it should all be a very positive experience. You are ruining the come command if you say it and the dog doesn't do it. I never repeat the command so it's important that it's not blown. If you want to teach the dog to bring the ball back, teach that as a bring it and drop it kind of thing. Right now the pup is choosing not to come when called and the ball is higher value. If you don't want to use treats you can use the ball as a reward system too. I use both.


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## SchattenHaus (Oct 9, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I wouldn't use a prong on a dog that young. Right now it should all be a very positive experience. You are ruining the come command if you say it and the dog doesn't do it. I never repeat the command so it's important that it's not blown. If you want to teach the dog to bring the ball back, teach that as a bring it and drop it kind of thing. Right now the pup is choosing not to come when called and the ball is higher value. If you don't want to use treats you can use the ball as a reward system too. I use both.


i have to use a prong, i have had my pup since 8 weeks so there are things that she knows and she will receive a level 2-3 correction for. 

but as i said earlier in my post she rarely gets one!

anyone with actual schutzhund training/dogs that can help?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SchattenHaus said:


> i have to use a prong, i have had my pup since 8 weeks so there are things that she knows and she will receive a level 2-3 correction for.
> 
> but as i said earlier in my post she rarely gets one!
> 
> anyone with actual schutzhund training/dogs that can help?


Why do you have to use a prong? Most people are not going to agree that a 5 month old pup needs a prong, whether they train in the sport or not. You can't correct a dog for what they don't know and at 5 months your dog doesn't know anything yet. Right now it's about laying a foundation. You teach it then proof it.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

As for the recall question; you have to make the game the reward, not the ball. You can use two balls instead of one. Be very animated and let her know that you have a second ball ready to throw as soon as she returns with the first. Keep your self in the middle of the game and toss each ball in opposite directions to keep her coming back towards you. It might take a few sessions for her too pick it up but this worked for my dog who is also very possesive.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

SchattenHaus said:


> i have to use a prong, i have had my pup since 8 weeks so there are things that she knows and she will receive a level 2-3 correction for.
> 
> but as i said earlier in my post she rarely gets one!
> 
> anyone with actual schutzhund training/dogs that can help?


I have "actual schutzhund training" for several years, and I would not use a prong on a 5 month old, and certainly not to give corrections for non compliance for things "she should know." That is like screaming at a 10 year old for not being able to do algebra. You have a BABY, you need to step back and treat it like one. Step way, way back. You need to work on your relationship, work on being able to "play" WITH her, work on games through play, relationship through play, and getting focus under all circumstances (without correction!). Showing her what you want and building confidence, not tearing her down. 
I recommend you get with a club and do some more learning (a lot more) and slow the heck down. 
Also yes, the 2 ball/toy game which I still play with my 3 possessive year old instead of trying to have some sort of power struggle.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There are _some_ working lines that are so drivey and impulsive that a prong _may_ be required for the safety and security of the person holding the leash, but playing ball with a five month old future prospect is NOT one of those situations. 

I agree with the others, ditch the prong, ditch the corrections. Find a CLUB and work with them since you don't want to make mistakes now that will mess up your foundation training and the relationship you have with your pup. 

To stop this "Come and get the ball if you want it" game, and get your dog to come to you and release the ball, play "two ball". 

Have two balls on a string (or two of his favorite fetch toys). You throw one, when he picks it up, call her and show her other ball. Do not throw the second ball until she has released the first ball. At first, just throw the ball a short distance so that she pics it up, and the second ball is there in her sight and the getting the first ball, releasing, getting the second ball is a fast-paced, quick-fire game. 

Once she knows the game and releases reliably at the right time start saying "Out" just as she releases. When she starts coming to you on her own for the second ball, start throwing the balls out further. When she is running out further and coming back to you start running backwards/away and calling her to build drive for _coming back_.

Another thing you want to work on is making playing with the ball WITH YOU more fun than anything else. Make sure you have the balls on a rope, and play lots of tug with her, but let her keep the ball. On a walk, whip out your ball, play tug. Let her carry the ball, say her name, to get her attention, take the rope hanging from the ball, play tug, let her win. Take her out in the yard, give her her ball, let her sniff and potter around, call her grab the rope of the ball, play tug.

I got tot he point with Gryffon that we could be out in a big open field, and he was playing and running around with Keeta completely into the chase (but he would have his ball in his mouth). I could just call him, and he would break away from the chase and run straight to me, and I would play tug with him and make a huge deal of letting him win, then send him out on his way and he would resume being chased by my other dog. 

I still play two ball, with Chuckits in big open areas with him, one of his favorite things. When he has one ball and runs back to me, I turn the other way, give him a drop it command when he is close, and launch the other ball in the other direction, so he keeps on running full speed. Again, this builds drive to run to the ball, and back to me. Runs twice the distance, half the stopping, better for him too.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I do know that some dogs have super high possession at that might make playing two ball more difficult. It depends on the dog obviously, and I play two ball when I can utilize it, but I have also played with a long line on the dog to ensure that they come back to me, and the reward is continuation of the game by tugging or another throw, etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Long line is always on a young dog. Restrained recalls should be done every training session if possible. I agree, ditch the prong on this puppy and get with a club for some help.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Schatten, our dogs are related. The sire of your pup is a litter mate to the dam of mine. What worked with him and two ball, was to not try and make it to structured, I moved around in an area where he didn't have too much room to go anywhere else, but I didn't stand still. It didn't take much work to create the pattern of him running to me. Two or three times of tossing the second ball, then keeping it a little out of sight so he wouldn't just leave the first one. 

Doc vom Steinbeckland ? working-dog


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Long line, if Schatten is VERY possessive, or two ball. I make the fun not possessing the ball, but coming back, slamming into me and fighting with the ball/toy. They don't always have to out the toy so the conflict of giving up the toy doesn't develop as much (it still will to a certain extent in a very possessive dog) and most dogs really do enjoy this game. Coming to you and playing with toys should be a fun rewarding experience and not an unpleasant one. 

What can also work, and the pup must be on a long line of some sort, is to just unceremoniously take the pup inside and put him/her in their crate for a few. Yes, they still have the toy, but it isn't as much fun, even for very possessive dogs, to sit in ones crate with the toy. No anger, no corrections just a time out. Try a few of these (since you have already created a bad habit it may take longer) and the other suggestions made by me and others and you will find the puppy much more interested in engaging with you during toy time. 

LB LOVES the game and readily brings it back, but like to drop the ball, snatch it up or grab it as I go to pick it up. I have, on several occasions, just said "OK" and walked away. Since she loves the game with me that has helped (and would help more if I was consistent). 

Other than a smaller or older person walking a large puppy in a situation where a pinch might be needed for safety (ice, snow, lots of exciting prey stimulation, etc), I see no reason to use a pinch on a 5 month old.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Long line, if Schatten is VERY possessive, or two ball. I make the fun not possessing the ball, but coming back, slamming into me and fighting with the ball/toy. They don't always have to out the toy so the conflict of giving up the toy doesn't develop as much (it still will to a certain extent in a very possessive dog) and most dogs really do enjoy this game. Coming to you and playing with toys should be a fun rewarding experience and not an unpleasant one.
> 
> What can also work, and the pup must be on a long line of some sort, is to just unceremoniously take the pup inside and put him/her in their crate for a few. Yes, they still have the toy, but it isn't as much fun, even for very possessive dogs, to sit in ones crate with the toy. No anger, no corrections just a time out. Try a few of these (since you have already created a bad habit it may take longer) and the other suggestions made by me and others and you will find the puppy much more interested in engaging with you during toy time.
> 
> ...


Exactly everything I was getting at. I have a super possessive malinois who was like that from genetics then also trained to be that way when was he with his previous owner/breeder being trained for detection work. It took a while to get him to play 2-ball reliably and then learning "drop it" (drop what you have in your mouth to the ground) and "aus" (let go of the item in your mouth that a person is holding). We do lots of play fighting & I built lots of value for it, so if he won't drop an item or grabs one before I say "bite" then I just completely ignore him and that is worse than any physical correction at this point. He was also on a long line for months when I first got him at 7 months old, I never ever allow my dogs to ignore a recall or practice not coming when called.


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## SchattenHaus (Oct 9, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Why do you have to use a prong? Most people are not going to agree that a 5 month old pup needs a prong, whether they train in the sport or not. You can't correct a dog for what they don't know and at 5 months your dog doesn't know anything yet. Right now it's about laying a foundation. You teach it then proof it.


i know that my dog KNOWS 3 commands sit stay and down.

if i need her to or ask her to do any of these and i get nothing she will get a light correction because she knows them. 

she is not being corrected nor am i using the prong while i work with her on other things.

otherwise i rotate her collars so that she doesn't know which is which.


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## SchattenHaus (Oct 9, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Schatten, our dogs are related. The sire of your pup is a litter mate to the dam of mine. What worked with him and two ball, was to not try and make it to structured, I moved around in an area where he didn't have too much room to go anywhere else, but I didn't stand still. It didn't take much work to create the pattern of him running to me. Two or three times of tossing the second ball, then keeping it a little out of sight so he wouldn't just leave the first one.
> 
> Doc vom Steinbeckland ? working-dog


yes korsan, from what i hear stan tells me is is very high drive, btw nice dog he's very well trained! thanks for the constructive input.


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## SchattenHaus (Oct 9, 2012)

thank you! i actually just found this game in a leerburg dvd i have so i will start to use this just so i can get her to come back, which is the only time i have trouble with the command so i just give her a down instead and go grab it. it hasn't even been a week since I've started taking her out to the bigger park in our area but i am all about progression with our sessions so thanks for your helpful not bashful input!


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## Aztec (Dec 27, 2014)

This might be a good book to take a look at, Pure Positive Training


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

See, I don't have a problem with a prong on a 5 month old.. Probably about the time I started with Nick.. And I do use it for the recall.

I have/had the same problem with my young dog (he's the first and it can be frustrating for sure) if he gets the toy reward.. he's happy to play by himself. You can see he wants to interact, but his desire to posses the toy is much higher.. So, he is always on a line of some sort.. I do use two balls, but not always.. But the game stays close to me, and I very rarely throw the ball.. So it's more about engaging with me and what I have.. It's taken a lot of patients, and time but he is slowly starting to offer the toy to me.. 

Will he ever be a dog that slams it back into me, I guess time will tell!!


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## Throwing_Machine (Jan 26, 2015)

SchattenHaus said:


> hey guys so for starters i have a 5 month old pup. i realize she's only 5 months so I'm not too worried about our little issue and i never force my pup to do anything. i want her to have the ultimate confidence, i rarely correct her on her prong but sometimes i have to. in drive she is a very hard dog, anyway with that being said when i put her into drive with the ball and let her have it i cannot for the life of me get her to recall, i have to give her her down command and then get the ball from her out of a down. is this a bad habit or can i continue on with this method for now? ideally i would love her to COME whenever/whatever the circumstance.
> :help:


If Kaia decides to play deaf I just say bye bye then and start walking away from her she is by my side in no time.
Also just make it fun for her to come back take a second ball or have a high value treat ready.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

My dog is super possessive. So the whole playing tug, releasing the tug, and getting him to run back into me with the tug or ball in order to play "the game" again has always been a challenge. 

He's 8½ months now and I've got his retrieve down pretty reliably where I can hurl a ball as far as I can, he'll dart off after it, and he'll come flying back in like a rocket. This took a bit of time to really get all the steps down, but he's got it now.

The first thing I did was always have some treats on me at all times. I started off in the house where I'd randomly call his name with the word "come!" at the end and when he'd run to me, I'd pull out a treat and reward. Do this 3~ times in a row and then promptly end the game. Go off and do your own thing and the pup will eventually go back to doing his thing and has lost attention in you. Once the pup has lost interest and is focused on something else, that's when you say your recall command again, (e.g. "Come!) and reward the pup with treats and praise when he comes to you. Repeat this multiple times throughout the day. 
The point is I want the pup to go from an inattentive, unfocused, not-engaged-with-me state of mind to "omg the boss is calling me i gotta get over there quick quick quick!!!" 
Remember, the most important recall you'll ever do with your dog is the one that saves its life! When your dog is wandering out in the street, or chasing a squirrel into the street with cars coming, the dog isn't focused on you, so you need your recall command to really, really work in those situations. 

Next, we moved on to doing the same thing, but this time in the yard. Same routine applies. Let him get distracted and focused on sniff things out in the yard, and then BOOM! Give the recall and reward the pup with lots of praise and treats for coming to you. Repeat multiple times. 

Once the pup gets it that coming to me when called = treat, I like to make the reward something different other than a treat, such as a game of tug. So now we do the same thing as before, going from a distracted, unfocused state of mind to "omg boss man is calling me I go to him now!", but instead of a treat reward, you pull out a tug and start a game of tug. 

Basically I do this over and over, but with the reward always changing up each day from treats, to balls, to tugs, to praise, to games, etc. I want the dog to think that every time he comes to me, there's a good chance that one of the many things he enjoys in life will be there when he gets to me. The goal is that I want the dog to believe no matter what that coming to me = the best thing because something great always happens. With the recall being so ingrained with being a positive thing, then the retrieving of a ball should be no thing at all and probably easier because the dog is already focused and engaged with you as opposed to being off in la-la land like in the previous recall training. 

Once the dog can reliable come to you on command, it makes the retrieve so much easier. Basically the dog already enjoys chasing a ball (prey drive), but now the coming back/recall is also an incredibly enjoyable experience for the dog because big fun and rewards await when he gets back with the ball, whether it be a treat, another ball, or a tug to bite and a game to play. This is where I bring in the two ball game, because he now knows the fetching game is already fun for him, but now the reward is instant the game of throwing another ball, him chasing it, and running back to return it, so that the process itself (i.e. game) is its own reward. 

Just my experience and technique, but I'm just an amateur at best.


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