# Please help! MALINOIS puppy exercise with high drive



## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Hello all!
I have a 5 month old rescue Malinois puppy, I have had him since he was 8 weeks old. With him being a malinois, needless to say he has VERY VERY high drive and insane amounts of energy. I have to excersise him every morning, afternoon, and when I get off work to keep him content and to keep him from biting EVERYTHING. I am starting to get some worries and am unsure what to do. Since he was little, we have been going out to a big field by my house and playing intense games of fetch. Using a chuckit! to throw the ball 100 or so feet for about 30 minutes, and the little man will be passed out for hours. He NEEDS this vigorous exercise, his breed has no other choice!! However, lately he has started to have a big limp in his walk. It doesn't seem to hurt him, but it's definitely worrying me. I am worried that with his high drive, he is crashing into the ground too hard to get the ball and it is having an ill affect on his joints. I am too scared to play fetch with him anymore until he gets a bit older. I know I shouldnt be running with him until he is older for the same reasons. SO WHAT DO I DO??? This little guy needs some intense exercise.

I would take him to the dog park for a couple hours as that is safe play and gets his energy out, but I have rescue husky mix at home that has severe issues since I have had her and is dog aggressive (so i cant take her to the dog park) and she has separation anxiety (so i can't leave her at home... she is usually fine if he is at home with her).

I'm DESPERATE. I haven't vigorously exercised him in 2 weeks and I almost cry every day because I can't deal with intense energy. I need him to physically get worn out!! Just mental stimulation is not enough!!

Any advice?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Okay, you sound a bit over your head with this dog. The malinois is not a beginner dog... not that you are... but having a dutch... same as a malinois I can say a couple things. 1)They can be nightmare puppies and if you are not well trained yourself they can learn bad habits from exerting dominance in aggressive ways, to OCD behavior, to uber destructive. 2) They need a lot of exercise and if you are a couch potato it won't work, and 3) they require a lifestyle change. You have to love working with dogs and these in particular thrive with a job. A chuck-it is not a job, it is just chaotic running around. 

So now you have this high drive high energy dog that you have tried to manage with intense exercise but chuck-its are notorious for causing joint injuries in young dogs. While yes your dog has the drive, his joints are not well formed, his growth plates are not closed and you could be causing permanent damage. Get rid of the chuck-it.

This dog needs to be worked mentally and physically is my guess. So structured obedience (a class? maybe? on on on with a trainer better) and teaching him to cap his energy is important. He might really excell at nose work. He would really benefit from Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis style tug games... highly structure games to teach him how to use his mouth (because lets face it they love to bite) appropriately and how to bond with you so he learns to take correction from you. The games also teach structure and following the rules.

I highly advise finding a trainer that knows these breeds. I went through 3 trainers who did not know how to work with this dog until I found the fourth that was golden. My trainer owns these dogs and knows what to do. Again, the malinois requires the best out of you so it is time to up your game and commit or rehome him. He does need exercise but he needs mental stimulation equally and that is what appears to be lacking from your description.

Find an IPO/Schutzhund club to help. Or a nose work class.

While a high drive high energy GSD can be similar to a malinois you might join a malinois FB group to get more ideas. There are lots of them. Also keep in mind that malinois can be poor dog park candidates.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I gave my pup chronic biceps brachialis tendonitis by playing fetch with her too much at a young age like your puppy. She had an intermittent and chronic front leg limp like you've described. It resolved with 1 month anti inflammatory (Previcox) and 6 weeks leash walk only. It was really hard but had to be done. I'm not diagnosing your puppy's limp just sharing my experience after X-rays, CT scan, 3 vets and $2k. Regardless the cause of your puppy's limp, he needs to stop running, jumping and coming to a grinding halt for a while; that I'm certain of. When his limp is gone, maybe short tosses where he doesn't get up to a full run to build a retrieve. Maybe running with other dogs when his limp is gone but not for a ball until he's 1. 
Like Karin said, engage his mind with obedience, nose work, tracking, tug for a while. Tug is good exercise for him; hard on your back..


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...se-dont-play-fetch-your-high-drive-puppy.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would do swimming(find an indoor area that you can be in for 30-45 minutes) or a treadmill. I don't think they ever slow down. Good Luck.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

everything dutchkarin said.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

What else do you normally do besides fetch for exercise? 

What is your purpose for having this dog? Does he have a job or sport of some kind? 

Are you working with a trainer? What do they recommend? 

There are going to be times in this dog's life when intense exercise isn't an option. You need to have other outlets. 

Nosework, tug, and obedience are the first things that spring to mind. Learning new things is tiring and can be very low impact. Puzzle toys and games can help, too. 

It also sounds like your pup needs to learn some house manners. There needs to be something between "exhausted and asleep" and "making you cry". 

If you don't have a trainer, I would recommend finding one. An IPO club should be able to provide you with proper guidance, even if you aren't interested in (or your dog isn't suited for) the protection work.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Would definitely lay off playing fetch until you have taken your pup to the vet and had the limp figured out. My pup lives for playing fetch with her baseball, if I did not do it at least once a day she would probably go crazy, but I'm also worried about causing damage so I've modified the ways that we play. What I've been doing is holding my dog by the collar or leash when I throw the ball and throw it somewhere she can't see, like tall grass, then make her do something, sit, down, heel, before releasing her for the ball. My goal is eventually she won't have to be restrained and won't go until released. By the time she gets to go after the ball she does not see it and has to use her nose to find it, slows her down a lot but still gives her the excitement of chasing and hunting the ball. 
In the mean time I'd start doing tracking in the same field you've been playing at. Join a local IPO club to get started. There's a book called Tracking From the Beginning that explains a lot for starting out, might want to get that. Tracking mentally stimulates your dog and I've heard that a long track is pretty exhausting for a dog. Hope this helps!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Great suggestions Astro. I do the same when playing fetch. Tug games are also a nice option- good workout for you, too. 

Also, I like to take my pups out in the woods for off leash romps. It is good for their minds and bodies without being damaging.

Tracking is a great way to use the brain, too. You can start pups off young.

High drive does not have to equal hyper. Teach the pup to calm down in the house. 

I have malinois, we went for a hike in the snow and now they are totally relaxed in the house. That is how I like it, I don't like crazyness in the house, and they can learn this real young. Have times for play and times for relaxing.


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## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Offleash running did the job for me, my pup would run all the way ahead of me and stop to sniff and then come back to me and then run all the way ahead again. Whenever she no longer run the extras and simply just follows me, I know she is tired enough. However, offleash areas without other dogs are hard to find and are often far away so best of luck. 

But for you, you might need to stop running to prevent injury for now. I feel you, my vet told me my pup needed intense activity as well.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Unless one leg is shorter than the others, a limp indicates pain. Since this pup is limping at a walk, I would take this very seriously. You really need to find out what the injury is and stop doing so much high impact exercise. I know this from experience.

We got a pup at 6 months old that was over exercised, and the soft tissue in his left shoulder was pretty much destroyed. At over 3 years old, he still has almost no muscle on that side, in spite of running around and playing hard every day on our farm. He had to be confined and never let off a leash for over a year and a half, until the limping stopped. Can you spell cabin fever? We had to get very creative with ways to entertain him inside with lots of puzzles and obedience training. 

Even now, he still has to be monitored. If he overdoes it, he will start limping again. It just takes a lot more for him to get to that point now. This may be a life-long issue with this guy, and his problem was created by too much exercise. 

Please listen to what others are saying. You could be doing damage that may never repair.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

I understand the needs of a malinois. This little man and his siblings were found dying under a shed at 1 week old with their abandoned mom. His mom is 1/2 german shepherd and 1/2 malinois, and his dad is full malinois. I didn't know he was malinois until I did a DNA test on him a few months back. I genuinely thought this guy was a GSD and man was I in for a surprise.

I have gone through 2 trainers but none of them understand the breed of this dog and much less understand the needs of a high drive dog. I have been extremely unsatisfied and quit both trainings. I cannot find a trainer that I am comfortable with and that is knowledgeable of Malinois. It makes me feel better that your fourth one you tried was the golden one, I guess I should just keep trying...

I am planning on getting him into agility but that class doesn't start until he is 8 months. He is currently only 5  

Although, he does WONDERFUL at the dog park. He is very submissive and playful. Never ever has aggressive tendencies.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

I actually read your post about your pup previously when I was searching this topic. It is what made me post this because it made me very nervous! I talked to my vet about it and she said keep playing fetch because this breed needs it, but I don't think she understands how fetch is with these high drive dogs...

I'm just driving myself (and him) crazy only trying to do mental exercises. He needs BOTH. Ugh.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Rehoming is NOT AN OPTION. He is very attached and I have dedicated my life out of work to this guy. Like I said, we spend an hour in the morning, hour in the afternoon, and an hour in the evening exercising and training. And after that he is inside with me but even in the home it is constantly learning time. He is VERY well trained and he is perfectly happy and content and calm when he is getting those 3-4 hours a day of vigorous mental and physical exercise. The entire issue is that I CANNOT physically exercise him for the time being as his joints do not seem to be doing well. He is fine mentally exercised, but the problem is getting him the right physical exercise base don his joints at the moment.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> What else do you normally do besides fetch for exercise?
> 
> What is your purpose for having this dog? Does he have a job or sport of some kind?
> 
> ...



When I got him from under a shed I was unaware he was a Malinois until a month ago. Eventually, he is going to get into agility at 8 months.

I am doing lots of mental exercise with him such as training and games, and we tug quite a bit, and we're just beginning nose work. However he seems to needs actual PHYSICAL intense exercise on top of this. 

I have worked with 2 trainers, neither of which I am comfortable with. They are not familiar with the breed or high drive dogs. I am working to find another trainer in which i am comfortable with. I didn't think about getting in touch with an IPO club to find a suitable trainer, thank you for that advice!!


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

astrovan2487 said:


> Would definitely lay off playing fetch until you have taken your pup to the vet and had the limp figured out. My pup lives for playing fetch with her baseball, if I did not do it at least once a day she would probably go crazy, but I'm also worried about causing damage so I've modified the ways that we play. What I've been doing is holding my dog by the collar or leash when I throw the ball and throw it somewhere she can't see, like tall grass, then make her do something, sit, down, heel, before releasing her for the ball. My goal is eventually she won't have to be restrained and won't go until released. By the time she gets to go after the ball she does not see it and has to use her nose to find it, slows her down a lot but still gives her the excitement of chasing and hunting the ball.
> In the mean time I'd start doing tracking in the same field you've been playing at. Join a local IPO club to get started. There's a book called Tracking From the Beginning that explains a lot for starting out, might want to get that. Tracking mentally stimulates your dog and I've heard that a long track is pretty exhausting for a dog. Hope this helps!


Wow, THANK YOU. This is what I needed. Not advice to rehome my pup and that I'm not a suitable owner. Its not that I am not capable of giving him what he needs, it's that his body isn't capable of withholding it right now. I really did appreciate this post. That throwing it in the grass and keeping him restrained until then is a wonderful idea. I think this is going to be our new exercise after his leg thing gets figured out. THANK YOU


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Pawsed said:


> Unless one leg is shorter than the others, a limp indicates pain. Since this pup is limping at a walk, I would take this very seriously. You really need to find out what the injury is and stop doing so much high impact exercise. I know this from experience.
> 
> We got a pup at 6 months old that was over exercised, and the soft tissue in his left shoulder was pretty much destroyed. At over 3 years old, he still has almost no muscle on that side, in spite of running around and playing hard every day on our farm. He had to be confined and never let off a leash for over a year and a half, until the limping stopped. Can you spell cabin fever? We had to get very creative with ways to entertain him inside with lots of puzzles and obedience training.
> 
> ...



That's the weird thing. He only limps when he's at a trot. And it doesn't seem to cause him any pain whatsoever. He';s fine at a walk or at a run. I am thinking one leg may be shorter. We will see what the vet says.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Just thought I should clarify based on responses:

It is not that I am not able to give this pup enough of my time for physical and mental exercises. I know this breed VERY well. I understand that this is not a first time dog owner, it needs a job, how intense this breed is, what can happen if not properly trained, etc. I KNOW. I promise. 

When I do exercise him mentally and physically he is wonderful and all his needs are fulfilled. It is the mere fact that I am UNABLE TO PHYSICALLY EXERCISE HIM AT THE MOMENT AS I AM WORRIED ABOUT HIS JOINTS. And until it gets figured out if its a joint issue, or if he just has one leg shorter, I want to take precautions and not play fetch or do strenuous exercises. However, without doing all this physical activity, the poor little guy goes crazy. 

I am not looking on advice as to whether I am a suitable owner, I am looking for advice on physical exercises I can do that is not harsh on the joints so that his physical needs are fulfilled.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Actually, trotting is where lameness usually shows up first. I thought you had said that he was limping at a walk, and that would be a worse case scenario than limping at a trot. The rule that limping equals pain still applies here. Puppies, or any animals for that matter, don't limp for fun. There is a problem or they wouldn't do that, unless there is a physical abnormality. But don't sit around and feel sorry for themselves because they are in pain. Until it gets to the point that they absolutely cannot overcome it, they just keep going, and they don't complain.

We bought a few puzzles for our pup that you can hide treats in. We still give him large plastic jars, like the ones that animal crackers sometimes come in, and put one, or more, of his favorite toys, or treats, in that. He has to figure out how to get them out. Throw around some cardboard boxes and let him at them. I think the idea of swimming is a very good one.

I'm sure you have a much more demanding pup that we do and I'm sure he's a challenge. It sounds like you are doing the best you can with him, and donating a lot of time and effort to him, and that's admirable. I hope you can find some type of activity that doesn't threaten his soundness.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I did a lot of body awareness with my pup. Basically teaching him how to use his body. It can be as simple as having them place their front paws on a perch and learning to circle their hind end around in both directions. Do a search for body awareness and you should find some info to get you started. You don't need to start out with fancy equipment either. I started with an overturned food bowl or I used a rubber livestock bowl I had. My puppies also learn to play Crate Games, DVD by Susan Garrett. A very good foundation for crate manners, impulse control, ect...

Also if you post at least your rough location someone here can probably help you find a good trainer.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Pawsed said:


> Actually, trotting is where lameness usually shows up first. I thought you had said that he was limping at a walk, and that would be a worse case scenario than limping at a trot. The rule that limping equals pain still applies here. Puppies, or any animals for that matter, don't limp for fun. There is a problem or they wouldn't do that, unless there is a physical abnormality. But don't sit around and feel sorry for themselves because they are in pain. Until it gets to the point that they absolutely cannot overcome it, they just keep going, and they don't complain.
> 
> We bought a few puzzles for our pup that you can hide treats in. We still give him large plastic jars, like the ones that animal crackers sometimes come in, and put one, or more, of his favorite toys, or treats, in that. He has to figure out how to get them out. Throw around some cardboard boxes and let him at them. I think the idea of swimming is a very good one.
> 
> I'm sure you have a much more demanding pup that we do and I'm sure he's a challenge. It sounds like you are doing the best you can with him, and donating a lot of time and effort to him, and that's admirable. I hope you can find some type of activity that doesn't threaten his soundness.



We are going to the vet today!! I will update after we get back. I'm hoping my sweet boy is okay.
I LOVE the treats and toys in a jar idea, I will try that tomorrow. Boxes he would just chew to pieces, he loves cardboard. I am currently in the process of finding somewhere where he can swim... I do not want to go to the lake by our house as it's getting COLD here.  I think swimming would be the perfect solution. I will also ask my vet if she knows of any indoor swimming options for dogs.

Thank you for the advice!!!


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Bramble said:


> I did a lot of body awareness with my pup. Basically teaching him how to use his body. It can be as simple as having them place their front paws on a perch and learning to circle their hind end around in both directions. Do a search for body awareness and you should find some info to get you started. You don't need to start out with fancy equipment either. I started with an overturned food bowl or I used a rubber livestock bowl I had. My puppies also learn to play Crate Games, DVD by Susan Garrett. A very good foundation for crate manners, impulse control, ect...
> 
> Also if you post at least your rough location someone here can probably help you find a good trainer.


We have been working on rear-end awareness for the past month. Just like what you said... I put a lid to a box on the ground and have him "turn" and "reverse". He needs a little guidance still with it but he's pretty good  

I am in the Oklahoma City area. If anyone has any knowledge of trainers that are suitable for high drive dogs such as malinois I would be so appreciative!


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

*Update*

Took my little man to the vet!
We are going back to a radiologist vet in a couple weeks, but by looking at him she does not believe it is his joints and he doesn't seem to be in any pain. She believes it is much more likely that it is just his bones growing a little "off" as the same leg he limps on, he faces slightly outwards when he is sitting. This is something that he may outgrow, or it could require surgery down the line a bit. She said she highly suggests to keep exercising him, as she believes the lack of physical exercise in his breed will be more detrimental than exercising him. And if its just merely a growth problem, exercising will not affect that. Although she said fetch is still fine, I think I am still going to be cautious as he does have such high drive. Maybe start hiking a bit more or doing to the dog park, things a little easier and do not affect his joints as much.

Thank you everyone!! Still very curious to see what others do for physical exercise that are easy on joints. I'm loving the suggestions so far!


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> Okay, you sound a bit over your head with this dog. The malinois is not a beginner dog... not that you are... but having a dutch... same as a malinois I can say a couple things. 1)They can be nightmare puppies and if you are not well trained yourself they can learn bad habits from exerting dominance in aggressive ways, to OCD behavior, to uber destructive. 2) They need a lot of exercise and if you are a couch potato it won't work, and 3) they require a lifestyle change. You have to love working with dogs and these in particular thrive with a job. A chuck-it is not a job, it is just chaotic running around.
> 
> So now you have this high drive high energy dog that you have tried to manage with intense exercise but chuck-its are notorious for causing joint injuries in young dogs. While yes your dog has the drive, his joints are not well formed, his growth plates are not closed and you could be causing permanent damage. Get rid of the chuck-it.
> 
> ...



I appreciate you trying to help, but I think you jumped to conclusions on first Malinois owner you came across. 1) My pup is actually the most submissive (towards animals and people), social, playful, and non aggressive pup ever. At dog parks (regardless that you say they are not good candidates), if another dog growls he will lie on his back in a submissive posture to show he is not a threat. He is neither food nor toy aggressive in any such way. 2) He is not destructive either. I am to the point where I do not crate him nor my other dog and they do perfectly fine while I am at work. 3) I am not a couch potato. As mentioned if you read my post, we do physical exercises at least 3-4 hours per day. And we train for at least 1 hour. Outside of this, our "chuck it time" is not chaotic running around. I have him perform a series of commands (sit, shake, down, speak, pivots, etc) before I release the ball. He sprints to go get it, and brings it back. Repeat. It is a structured mix of both mental and physical stimulation.

I will look into the games, I appreciate the advice and suggestion!
As for training, I have gone through 2 I am not comfortable with and continue to look.

As for rehoming, that is not going to happen. I am perfectly capable of providing the life he needs and my life is dedicated to him outside of work. The issue is not that I cannot provide the mental or physical stimulation he needs, it is merely that his body is not allowing it right now due to the growth of his bones. Very different stories.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The trick to living well with malinois (I have three) is not exercise although that is important with any dog aside from the lazy doormat types for the sake of letting the dog be a dog.

The trick to living well is learning how to condition calmness with them in the house. Classical conditioning of calmness is achieved through a mix of exercises and techniques. Exercises like sitting on the dog (someone else can give you an explanation of that as I don't have the time (spoiler alert: you don't actually sit on the dog.) Teaching them to go to place and stay there until released is another. Taking time to force a dog to just chill out with you on a couch and not allowing them to leave until they are perfectly relaxed is another. Correcting them for obnoxious or hyper behaviors in the house is another. Not playing high energy games with them in the house unless there are start and stop cues. Correcting them for expressions of impatience like whining and pacing is another biggie to helping them condition to being calm and not annoying.

You also can't devote all your time with your dog to exercise or training activities because the dog will learn to associate you as a classically conditioned cue for action and excitement. You need to take time with them to just veg out. I'm a professional trainer with a high level sport dog and I don't even train for an hour a day or do 3-4 hours a day of exercise with my dogs. That is way way way over the top.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

htat is an extremely active dog
i know i don't give my dog as much exercise as a normal GSD should
he goes out daily (if jogging 40min / if walking 90~min, sometimes 2 hrs)
and that's it, he just goes out ONCE per day, and that seems to work for my dog, 7 months old male

about twice a month he swims in the pool, and once a week he runs at his pace at my local park (off leash when i don't see anyone around)


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Baillif said:


> The trick to living well with malinois (I have three) is not exercise although that is important with any dog aside from the lazy doormat types for the sake of letting the dog be a dog.
> 
> The trick to living well is learning how to condition calmness with them in the house. Classical conditioning of calmness is achieved through a mix of exercises and techniques. Exercises like sitting on the dog (someone else can give you an explanation of that as I don't have the time (spoiler alert: you don't actually sit on the dog.) Teaching them to go to place and stay there until released is another. Taking time to force a dog to just chill out with you on a couch and not allowing them to leave until they are perfectly relaxed is another. Correcting them for obnoxious or hyper behaviors in the house is another. Not playing high energy games with them in the house unless there are start and stop cues. Correcting them for expressions of impatience like whining and pacing is another biggie to helping them condition to being calm and not annoying.
> 
> You also can't devote all your time with your dog to exercise or training activities because the dog will learn to associate you as a classically conditioned cue for action and excitement. You need to take time with them to just veg out. I'm a professional trainer with a high level sport dog and I don't even train for an hour a day or do 3-4 hours a day of exercise with my dogs. That is way way way over the top.



I really appreciated this post. I will look up the "sitting on the dog" (Lol I actually questioned for a second about if you actually sit on them). 

May I ask how exactly you correct them for obnoxious or hyper behaviors? In the last couple days (probably since he has not been getting physical exercise) he has been starting to "demand" attention by whining, dropping ball at my feet and barking at me (RUDE), etc. It is completely not acceptable. I am just unsure how to correct them appropriately.

Also, how do you force them to "chill out" when they're in hyper mode? Do you restrain them and only release when they are exhibiting calm behaviors?

Thank you so much for this!!!!


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

*Trainer recommendations?*

Does anyone have trainer recommendations for high drive dogs such as my kiddo in the Oklahoma City area??

Thought I'd give it a shot in case anyone knows of a reputable one


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Pan_GSD said:


> htat is an extremely active dog
> i know i don't give my dog as much exercise as a normal GSD should
> he goes out daily (if jogging 40min / if walking 90~min, sometimes 2 hrs)
> and that's it, he just goes out ONCE per day, and that seems to work for my dog, 7 months old male
> ...


I must admit I am pretty envious. I can usually cut it going out twice a day... once in the morning so he is calm in the house while I am at work and doesn't tear anything up. And once when I get home so he doesn't drive this momma crazy after a busy day at work. But through both of those we have to at least go out for an hour.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

AmandaLaynee said:


> I really appreciated this post. I will look up the "sitting on the dog" (Lol I actually questioned for a second about if you actually sit on them).
> 
> May I ask how exactly you correct them for obnoxious or hyper behaviors? In the last couple days (probably since he has not been getting physical exercise) he has been starting to "demand" attention by whining, dropping ball at my feet and barking at me (RUDE), etc. It is completely not acceptable. I am just unsure how to correct them appropriately.
> 
> ...


You can but it's more complicated than an answer that can be given simply, and to a large degree it is an industry secret. I get paid a lot of money to answer that question. Basically I teach the dogs a system of communication. Things I want to see occur more are rewarded and things I don't want to see anymore of are punished. I use a system of markers to facilitate clear understanding so that the dog can quickly and clearly link good actions with good results and bad actions with bad results. I teach the dogs how to be punished, how to react to it, what makes it worse what makes it better, IE don't try to escape a consequence and stuff of that nature. It allows me to be black and white with them on how I want them to behave. 

Part of the reason I can't give you a simple answer is that process isn't simple for the uninitiated. I shape the understanding of what a consequence is, how to react to it, how not to react to it, and do so in a way that won't damage my relationship with the animal, it will in fact make that relationship much stronger. I know how to balance things out, and explaining all of that isn't the easiest thing in the world. The understanding of the system is put on the board and train dogs that come through the program the ins and outs of how to properly correct dogs is a 2-3 hour long lecture at the end of that program for the owners, and then several hours worth of hands on handling for the owners. 

There is an ethical obligation to do aversive control clearly, consistently, and with the proper amount of tact.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Restraining is a possibility though as long as the dog isn't a complete jerk if you do it. I've seen mal puppies that will try to tear you up for doing that.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Baillif said:


> You can but it's more complicated than an answer that can be given simply, and to a large degree it is an industry secret. I get paid a lot of money to answer that question. Basically I teach the dogs a system of communication. Things I want to see occur more are rewarded and things I don't want to see anymore of are punished. I use a system of markers to facilitate clear understanding so that the dog can quickly and clearly link good actions with good results and bad actions with bad results. I teach the dogs how to be punished, how to react to it, what makes it worse what makes it better, IE don't try to escape a consequence and stuff of that nature. It allows me to be black and white with them on how I want them to behave.
> 
> Part of the reason I can't give you a simple answer is that process isn't simple for the uninitiated. I shape the understanding of what a consequence is, how to react to it, how not to react to it, and do so in a way that won't damage my relationship with the animal, it will in fact make that relationship much stronger. I know how to balance things out, and explaining all of that isn't the easiest thing in the world. The understanding of the system is put on the board and train dogs that come through the program the ins and outs of how to properly correct dogs is a 2-3 hour long lecture at the end of that program for the owners, and then several hours worth of hands on handling for the owners.
> 
> There is an ethical obligation to do aversive control clearly, consistently, and with the proper amount of tact.



I understand the complexity of all of this, it is why I am so distraught on not finding a trainer I am comfortable with. I really like the whole system of communication, it is what I believe in. I am trying to work on that with my pup but I just feel as though I should probably get on the hunt again to find a good trainer. Hm, here we go again. 

You seem very knowledgable and I really appreciate you taking the time to try to explain some of this to me, although as I'm sure you assume some of it is over my head as I am not a trainer. It gives me hope that you have 3 mals and think 3-4 hours of exercise a day is over the top. Maybe now, I will focus more on rewarding calm behaviors and not trying to just tire him out.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It can be broken down to where you would understand it isn't rocket science, although the learning theory science behind it is fascinating. 

The problem is the actual hands on part, the practical part of it is something that needs to be coached in person to really get. It isn't as simple as following a protocol because things go wrong and you need to be able to trouble shoot.

I'll give you an example. You try to hold a dog in place to get him to settle and he decides to bite you to get let go. It works and over time the dog learns he can bite you when you're trying to hold him in place so that he can go do what he wants. If you don't know how to respond you can create a problem.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Our pup also turned his leg out, sitting, running, standing, all the time. It must have relieved a bit of pressure on his shoulder and he no longer does that routinely. When he starts to do that now, even if he's not yet limping, we know he needs to be kept quiet, and he will stop turning that leg out with a little rest.

He also didn't exhibit any signs of pain, other than the limp. No manipulations could get him to react at all. That is, until one day when my husband was checking him over and lifted that shoulder straight upward. Then he yelped. 

I hope you will soon find out what is causing your dog to be uncomfortable. In the meantime, please listen to Bailliff. He knows what he is talking about, and, from what I have read here, he has some amazing, very accomplished dogs.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

AmandaLaynee said:


> Just thought I should clarify based on responses:
> 
> It is not that I am not able to give this pup enough of my time for physical and mental exercises. I know this breed VERY well. I understand that this is not a first time dog owner, it needs a job, how intense this breed is, what can happen if not properly trained, etc. I KNOW. I promise.
> 
> ...


Is it possible he has Pano? I don't know if Mals get this too? If so, he will outgrow it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Treatment would be basically the same.


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## AmandaLaynee (Sep 5, 2016)

Pawsed said:


> Our pup also turned his leg out, sitting, running, standing, all the time. It must have relieved a bit of pressure on his shoulder and he no longer does that routinely. When he starts to do that now, even if he's not yet limping, we know he needs to be kept quiet, and he will stop turning that leg out with a little rest.
> 
> He also didn't exhibit any signs of pain, other than the limp. No manipulations could get him to react at all. That is, until one day when my husband was checking him over and lifted that shoulder straight upward. Then he yelped.
> 
> I hope you will soon find out what is causing your dog to be uncomfortable. In the meantime, please listen to Bailliff. He knows what he is talking about, and, from what I have read here, he has some amazing, very accomplished dogs.


This sounds EXACTLY like my pup!! Turns his leg out when he sits, walks, etc. But in no pain. I try to do manipulations every couple days to make sure everything is fine.
Did you ever find out what was wrong with your baby??


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