# Seizures



## Michel1127us (Jan 1, 2012)

I have a 2 1/2 year old male shepherd who has had a few seizures. 3 of them I personally witnessed. 2 of them were last night. Since the last one, about 2:40am, he has been pacing, whining ( a little ) and disoriented. He definitely is not acting himself in anyway. Other than taking him to the vet can anyone offer any advice, information etc on how long these symptoms will last? He doesn't even act excited to see me (not normal) or does not want to chase his ball (loves that). He will sit on command but 100% not himself other than that. After the first one we witnessed he came out of it and behaved normally, but not now. Any info or past personal experience is welcomed. Thank you and Happy New Year!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Aw, I'm sorry. 
My girl started her inherited epilepsy two weeks before her second birthday. I believe the term is idieopathic (sp? ...sorry Selzer! lazy) epilepsy. Basically meaning unknown cause.

I would recommend taking him into a vet. You need to rule out tick borne disease, heart issues, etc. Also, meds can and do control them to a point. Meds (usually pheonobarbitol and potassium bromide...although there is Kepra which is pretty $$$$)

When Alice has a seizure it's a full on grand mal type; eyes go blind, stiff posture, "running in place", locking jaws, frothing at mouth. They can last as long as 60 seconds for this part of the seizure. When she comes out of that, it's somewhere between 2--10 minutes of "re-orientation" apparently blind, uncoordinated, (can you blame that?) and very very very affectionate. Annoyingly so, for an aloof female GSD; especially for the cats. It's like she "leaves" and comes back so she wants to find everyone and love them up.
I don't do much except make sure that she doesn't hit her head on anything or fall off a sofa/bed and hurt herself. I also just make sure that she doesn't crash into stuff during the re-orientation. I don't give her any commands other than call her name so she can hear me/find me. It's not a long period but it'll seem longer.

She has one usually in the very early morning (like 1:00 AM----6:00 AM) and usually about every six weeks to two months. She tends to cluster more in the summer if it's hotter.
I keep a log book with dates, times, what was going on around her, and length of seizures, with lenghth of reorientation period. Oh, also, I record her dosages of meds in this book; whether something has been raised or lowered.

I had problems with my first vet, so I went through three of them before I found one that understood: 
Quit overdrugging my dog and let's work on a combination of diet and drugs to slow side effects down. (Ataxia "drunky butt" excessive hunger, etc.)
Write your questions down so you can remember to ask the vet your questions and concerns. 
And, do not be afraid to change vets if you have to.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Dietary changes,

check the thyroid,

check for any evidence of tick disease....

those are the rules outs and the appropriate places to start.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Was he vaccinated recently?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

BowWowMeow said:


> Was he vaccinated recently?


yes, great question!


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## slbirchfield (Jan 30, 2012)

How is your boy doing since the seizures. Mine had one on Sunday, it was his first. He is 4 1/2 years old and has shown no changes in behavior since. Our vet did not think it was a big deal, so I'm trying to do as much research as I can. The first thing that we have done is to move him off of foods that use corn meal of corn gluton in hopes that it will help with any high blood sugar issues.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Bella had a seizure at around 2:30am this morning. We adopted her a little over 2 months ago, she was diagnosed with "light" heartworms in February and has been on Heartgard Plus since then. We were without A/C all day yesterday and it got up to 90 degrees in the house. I tried to keep her as cool as possible and tried to make her drink enough water but I could tell she was miserable. Once the A/C was fixed and the house started cooling down - around 8:00pm - she seemed to be more energetic and even tried to get my step-daughter to play with her. 

The seizure lasted about a minute - legs out straight and trashing, eyes wide open, mouth frothing, and she peed a little. Afterwards, she was very disoriented and seemed to spend the next 5 or so minutes in "re-orientation." She didn't seem to be uncoordinated - at least not any more than when she first wakes up in the mornings - but she was definitely out of it. I called an animal hospital while it was happening and they said if she has another seizure this morning to bring her in. If not, I could wait and take her to my vet this morning which I am doing.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our last gsd had seizures like that too, but it was when she was 11 yrs old. She kept looking up at the sky as though something came down and hit her. Hope Bella is feeling better soon


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I am very sorry that you are going through this, I know because my last female shepherd suffered from seizures towards the end of her life. There are a lot of resources on line that you can go to for information.
It usually takes a while for the dog to completely come out of a seizure, especially if it was a particularly bad one.
I would definitely follow up with your vet and as others have mentioned rule out other causes for the seizure. You definitely want to keep a log of any following seizures to monitor frequency and patterns.
Good luck, I wish you the best!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your dog having a seizure. Definately go see your vet, no need to go to the er. I have gotten a lot of support & info from this group Canine Epilepsy Resources there are a lot of different groups. 
The main thing is keep calm, learn all you can about it and hopefully she will never have another. Let us know how you make out at the vets today. Good luck.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Thank you all. We went to the vet this morning and they took blood and said we should hear something back tomorrow. Even though she is pretty much back to her old "rub my belly" self, I wanted to take her to the vet and have the lab work done to make sure there are no internal issues that could have caused the seizure. 

We adopted Bella at the end of this past April and the woman who was fostering her had taken her in sometime in February. She had also taken Bella to the vet to make sure she was up-to-date on everything and to check for parvo (among other things). She didn't mention anything about seizures when we adopted Bella, but I just sent her an email to verify.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Okay. I am officially freaked out now. Bella just had another seizure about 30 minutes - less than 24 hours since her last one, which was the first one she's had in the 2 months that we've had her. 

During her seizure last night, luckily she was sleeping on the floor in the den. Tonight, however she was on the couch but thank goodness I was sitting there with her. At around 8pm, I decided to play a little xbox instead of going to bed. If I had gone to bed, Bella would have fallen off the couch and onto the hardwood floor. 

A couple people have asked me if she could have gotten into anything toxic and I'm pretty sure she has not. At least, we haven't seen any evidence that she has. 

The only major change or occurrence was yesterday when our A/C was out and it got up to 90 degrees in the house. We tried to keep her as cool as possible - I would try to get her to get up and drink water, but was just did not want to get off our bed where she was laying with 2 fans blowing on her. At one point I started wetting small towels and putting them either on her chest or draped over her neck. Those didn't seem to be cool enough, so I put them in the freezer for several minutes and then laid them on her. I kept doing this throughout the day. If her being over heated yesterday is the cause of the seizures I don't know what I'll do. The guilt would probably kill me.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Bella had another seizure this morning around 4:55am. This one didn't seem to last as long, but that might just be wishful thinking. For anyone who's counting, that's 3 seizures in a little over 24 hours from a dog who has not had any seizures in at least 5 months. I talked to the woman who took Bella in back in February and she said, as far as she knows, Bella did not have any seizures while she was fostering her. 

And, I just got off the phone with the vet and he said the blood tests were all clean so the cause is probably neurological - epilepsy. He suggested prescribing some medication to help get the seizures under control and then setting up consultation with a neurologist.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I am so sorry you are going thru this. You have to get to your vet ASAP your dog should be given a loading dosage of phenobarbitol. 
Kiya had her first seizure then 2 days later she started to "cluster" just as your dog is doing now.
Although it is easier said than done try to remain calm, with vet care you should be fine. I will keep checking this thread.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

All of Kiya's test were negative as well, including an xray of the stomach to see if there was an obstruction. She was only 18 months old at the time. 
The best advice I ever got was from my vet that day "Lets just get the seizures under control and take it from there". 
I did not got to a neurologist or get an MRI. The meds kicked in and she maintained good control.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I know it seems very scary for you but kiya is right , you need to try and keep yourself calm. My last shepherd started off having single seizures and then clusters. 
Do some research on Canine Epilepsy there is a lot of helpful information that you can get in understanding what your dog is going through. Also make sure you keep a journal of her seizures, you will probably find that there are patterns to them.
Good luck, I wish you all the best!:hug:


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

kiya said:


> All of Kiya's test were negative as well, including an xray of the stomach to see if there was an obstruction. She was only 18 months old at the time.
> The best advice I ever got was from my vet that day "Lets just get the seizures under control and take it from there".
> I did not got to a neurologist or get an MRI. The meds kicked in and she maintained good control.


kiya, don't you think that given the dog's age that an MRI of the brain should be done beacuse of her age. I always thought that if a dog was going to develop epilepsy that it was usually in younger dogs and that when they start seizing in older dogs, it's most likely from neurological causes?


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

kiya said:


> All of Kiya's test were negative as well, including an xray of the stomach to see if there was an obstruction. She was only 18 months old at the time.
> The best advice I ever got was from my vet that day "Lets just get the seizures under control and take it from there".
> I did not got to a neurologist or get an MRI. The meds kicked in and she maintained good control.


Agree with Carolyn. My 9 yr old shepherd just started having siezures. Blood work came back negative so he is now on phenobarbital and he has been siezure free for over a week. Our plan is to stay the course as long as it is working.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

My shepherd also tested negative, but her seizures never were under control under two types of anti-seizure meds. She was 7 years old at the time.
I hope that the meds work and she remains seizure free, it's sucha hrad thing to go through.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sorry about your dog. My daughter had seizures when she was younger. She was finally given phenobarbital after little success with other meds. It did the job. The heat could have played a role in bringing on a seizure, stressors in general can trigger one. If my daughter did not sleep well, it seemed to bring one on.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> kiya, don't you think that given the dog's age that an MRI of the brain should be done beacuse of her age. I always thought that if a dog was going to develop epilepsy that it was usually in younger dogs and that when they start seizing in older dogs, it's most likely from neurological causes?


If money is no object sure do an MRI. My thing is so many people dump dogs that have seizures because some vets are just looking to ring up the sale of extensive testing. MRI can be $1500 and what kind of treatment would be available. Would you do brain surgery?. When Kiya began having seizures I was absolutely devastated and ready to do what ever it took to find out why and what to do for her. My vet told me you could spend thousands and thousand of dollars and never get an answer. 
When seizures can not be controled with meds than further testing should be looked into. Every dog is different every case is different and what works for one dog may not work for another.
The chances that this dog had a seizure prior to adoption is very high. Normal medication & testing is realitivly inexpensive and most dogs live a long normal live, like mine.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

kiya said:


> If money is no object sure do an MRI. My thing is so many people dump dogs that have seizures because some vets are just looking to ring up the sale of extensive testing. MRI can be $1500 and what kind of treatment would be available. Would you do brain surgery?. When Kiya began having seizures I was absolutely devastated and ready to do what ever it took to find out why and what to do for her. My vet told me you could spend thousands and thousand of dollars and never get an answer.
> When seizures can not be controled with meds than further testing should be looked into. Every dog is different every case is different and what works for one dog may not work for another.
> The chances that this dog had a seizure prior to adoption is very high. Normal medication & testing is realitivly inexpensive and most dogs live a long normal live, like mine.


Your'e right MRI's are very expensive. With my last dog I opted not to do an MRI, because of the cost and because they did feel given her age that it was possibly a tumor. At her age at the time I knew that we would not be doing any surgery and did opt to try and control her seizures with meds. What other testing could be done?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> Your'e right MRI's are very expensive. With my last dog I opted not to do an MRI, because of the cost and because they did feel given her age that it was possibly a tumor. At her age at the time I knew that we would not be doing any surgery and did opt to try and control her seizures with meds. *What other testing could be done?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Honestly I am no expert, I just live with it for the last 6 years.
> I didn't persue any additional testing. Removing any triggers, if you can identify them or think you identified them is the first steps (then your usually proved wrong about it anyway, we thought stress was Kiya's trigger). Then diet changes, different meds. I feel that if you do find out the seizures where caused by a tumor, at least you know. I will never know and I really don't think there is any other test that could identify a problem.
> I had a story in Newsday to raise awareness and I belong to 2 online support groups that really helped me get thru this Canine Epilepsy Resources and Canine Epilepsy Resources


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for your kind words of encouragement and your advise. It's been over 20 years since I've owned a dog and we never had any issues with our miniature Dachshunds. I have learned so much from this forum. 

My vet put Bella on Phenobarbital - 64.8MG twice daily. A couple side effects I've read are excessive thirst, excessive urination (duh, if she's drinking more, she's peeing more), and excessive eating. I know I should try to maintain her normal eating habits to minimize weight gain, but should I limit her water intake? I try to keep an eye on her when she's drinking to make sure she doesn't gulp it down or drink too much at one time. Although, after the seizures, she was very thirsty.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have never restricted Kiya's water. Bella is on a pretty low dosage so that is good you have a lot of room to work with. Kiya started out on 97mg of pb and my vet also put her on kbr (potassium bromide) he said the 2 drugs work well together and the kbr is not processed thru the liver. I thought I was going to loose her that day. It began about 4am and by the time I got to the vets office at 8am she had at least 6. I had to leave her there and they told me to come back at 3pm. When I got there I was speaking with my vet and one of the tech's came in and said doctor we need you in the back, he just looked at me and said come back at 7pm. Even though they had been loading her up with the pheno she was still having seizures. I went back at 7pm, they didn't want to keep her overnight becuase no one would be there. I was so scared to take her home. She was fine, the side affects of the meds drove me crazy for a few months. Like you I had been around dogs my whole life and never experienced anything like that. It never even ocurred to me at the time dogs could get epilepsy.
I hope your dog does well on the on low dosage, good luck.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Thoughts and prayers are with you! It's never easy to watch a beloved member of the family going through a seizure.

My dog Beau began having seizures at 4 years old, as well. Idiopathic epilepsy was the diagnosis. 

Hopefully, the phenobarbital will help with Bella and you can get control of this.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

I forgot to mention that Bella hasn't had a seizure since 4:55am yesterday morning - over 24 hours. And, to clarify, I have not owned a dog in over 20 years. My ex-wife and I had our miniature Dachshunds for 5 years and they never had any issues. 

I've read the Pheno can take several days to get into the system to become effective, but she seems to be drinking a lot more water than usual. Plus, I'm not sure if it's the Pheno or not but she seems to be more restless and curious about everything.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

If your vet didn't give her a loading dose, yes it could take time to build in her system. I am sure the restless & curiosity is a result of the seizures and the meds. After a seizure they go thru whats called Post-ictal behavior. Some times the recovery period is quick, some times not. I don't let Kiya wonder around, she bumps into things but usually she's back to herself in about an hour or less. I've heard some dogs can take much longer to "come out of it". 
Check out the 2 sites I posted, there is a lot of info.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Update: So far, the only side effects I've seen are restlessness, excessive thirst, and she seems to be a little confused sometimes. I'm not sure about sedation/drowsiness because she's always been pretty sedate. And, I'm not sure if it's related to the PB or the seizures or what but she seems to be a lot more curious than normal. Whenever she's restless and goes walking around the house, she sniffs at everything which is something she didn't really do before. The really strange part is, when I take her outside to do her business, she'll walk around the patio a couple times and then just stand there, even though I know she really needs to go, based on how much more water she's been drinking. I have to coax her over to her normal pee spots. And, if she goes on her own - without me leading her around - she goes just about anywhere, like our backyard is new to her and she hasn't yet established her favorite spots. It's funny, before the seizures, she would mostly pee on one side of the yard (by the neighbors we don't like all that much) and poop on the other (we like those neighbors, but I pick up her poop anyway). 

Sorry, I tend to ramble sometimes.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Another Update: Bella hasn't had anymore seizures, so we're keeping our fingers crossed. However, it was breaking my heart to see how the Phenobarb was effecting her. She walks around like she's drunk, she bumps into stuff, she's always slipping on the wood floors. The other day she took a header off the back patio when she decided to attack a tennis ball which was just laying in the grass, minding its own business. When she got to the ball, she over-shot it, tried to compensate and went into a flat spin onto her side. She recovered quickly and acted like "I meant to do that." I couldn't even laugh because I knew what caused it. 

The vet has her on 64.8MG, twice a day. She only weighs 67 pounds. She was already pretty sedate with the light heartworms so she doesn't get much exercise. Therefore, her body is having trouble metabolizing it. I called the vet and they suggested cutting her dose in half - 1/2 pill, twice a day. We started that last night. 

One "good" thing about the polyphagia (excessive eating) side effect of the Phenobarb is that I can put pretty much anything in front of her and she'll eat it. Before, she could be a little finicky from time to time.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm glad you've gotten things under control so far. It takes time to figure out the best course of meds. Once you've gotten it figured out and she's gotten adjusted to the meds I'm sure she'll be fine. Good luck!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

KennyFrench said:


> Another Update: Bella hasn't had anymore seizures, so we're keeping our fingers crossed. However, it was breaking my heart to see how the Phenobarb was effecting her.* She walks around like she's drunk, she bumps into stuff, she's always slipping on the wood floors. The other day she took a header off the back patio when she decided to attack a tennis ball which was just laying in the grass, minding its own business. When she got to the ball, she over-shot it, tried to compensate and went into a flat spin onto her side*. She recovered quickly and acted like "I meant to do that." I couldn't even laugh because I knew what caused it.
> 
> The vet has her on 64.8MG, twice a day. She only weighs 67 pounds. She was already pretty sedate with the light heartworms so she doesn't get much exercise. Therefore, her body is having trouble metabolizing it. I called the vet and they suggested cutting her dose in half - 1/2 pill, twice a day. We started that last night.
> 
> One "good" thing about the polyphagia (excessive eating) side effect of the Phenobarb is that I can put pretty much anything in front of her and she'll eat it. Before, she could be a little finicky from time to time.


All those side affects are "ataxia". I totally understand how hard it is to watch when they are like that. I was told I should expect Kiya to be "lethargic" HA I had the total opposite all she did was pace, her hind end would give out, mindless bark and those big bug eyes.
64mg is definately a low dose which is really good. Watch out about the weight gain, Kiya gained a good 15lbs very fast. Glad to hear all is quiet. Good luck.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

kiya said:


> All those side affects are "ataxia". I totally understand how hard it is to watch when they are like that. I was told I should expect Kiya to be "lethargic" HA I had the total opposite all she did was pace, her hind end would give out, mindless bark and those big bug eyes.
> 64mg is definately a low dose which is really good. Watch out about the weight gain, Kiya gained a good 15lbs very fast. Glad to hear all is quiet. Good luck.


She'll go from sleeping for hours at a time to "Can't-sit-still-gotta-walk-around-sniff-everything-lay-back-down-for-three-minutes-get-up-walk-around-more." I haven't seen any sign of her hind end giving out, but it does seem a little slower than the rest of her body and she'll occasionally drags a hind paw slightly and just for a step or two. 

We've been very careful not to give into her hunger. She'll walk over to where her food bowl normally would be and sniff, then walk around the room and go back to her feeding area, look again for her food bowl and wonder why there's no food there. Then she'll come to me and give a little whine - she's not a very vocal dog. At that point, I'll give her about half a cup of food and she'll be fine for awhile.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Hi there, I am new to this forum too...I just want to start by saying I do not have a dog with those problems, however I DO have a fear of said. Seizures are a neurological disorder. Treating the symptoms - the seizure is not enough. It just masks the underlying problem, whether it be nerve damage, deficiencies, toxins, vaccinations, tumor (ouch, that one is scarey). I don't know much about what your Vet has determined as cause or if (idiopathic means - of unknown origin - no known cause).

Another fancy word - Iatrogenic caused (or Iotragenic?)...this means...Caused by Medical pratictioner whether it be from treatment, or wrong diagnosis.

A huge proponent of seizures is vaccination. Namely rabies. Rabies is neurological disorder...neurological disorder, injecting rabies directly into the blood over and over = neurological disorder.

No matter what your Vet claims. Vaccinations are not safe any more with a neuro disorder..hopefully your Vet is in tune with that. The drug companies include a leaflet in the box that warns against immunating sick animals. Vets throw this out and say perfectly safe. Not true. If you are req.'d by law, your Vet (if has integrity) can write a letter saying your can not "medically take a rabies shot due to illness"

On another note, according to Don Hamilton DVM book "Homeopathic care for dogs and cats"...
B - complex vitamin 
L-Tyrosine and Tryptaphan (x-mas Turkey coma amino acid ) 

Magnesium deficiency may cause noted problem. Adding a Magnesium suppliment (50 mg.) and incorporating Magnesium Rich Foods into your dogs diet, regardless of what you feed, kibble, raw or the like. It has been indicated in Stopping seizures all together w/o use of drugs.

Adding additional B-12 (methylcobalmun version - more bio-available) in sublingual drops (under the tongue), or quick dissolve. Sheps are are prone to Pancreas problems, and malapsorption causing deficiencies. Sometimes B-12 needs and adjuvant thatis lacking, and enzyme called "Intrinsic Factor" this helps transport and use B-12 effectively. It should be used with a multi B and Folic acid (non toxic and excess is excreted in urine).

Ingestion of Coconut oil (raw organic cold pressed) has been shown to increase keytones the brain restoring function (seizures cause damage to cells)

and lastly...amino acid L-Glutamine. Repairs the G.I. Tract, Repairs muscle damage and is one of the only things that cross the "Blood Brain Barrior" 

Google the info, you be surprised what you can do for doggie, that your vet will never tell you (if they even know), re: no $$$ in it for them

Invest in your dogs health, not your Vets Mercedes
Regards


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sorry...one more thing.

Go to a Chiropractor....a lot of neuro problems are caused by misalignment, by pinched nerves and/or slipped disc. Seizure meds won't fix that.

B-12 helps strengthen and nourish the Mylan sheath (spell check?). That is the sheath that covers and protects the nerves so they do not "mis-fire"


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

KennyFrench said:


> Bella had a seizure at around 2:30am this morning. We adopted her a little over 2 months ago, she was diagnosed with *"light" heartworms in February and has been on Heartgard Plus since then.* We were without A/C all day yesterday and it got up to 90 degrees in the house. I tried to keep her as cool as possible and tried to make her drink enough water but I could tell she was miserable. Once the A/C was fixed and the house started cooling down - around 8:00pm - she seemed to be more energetic and even tried to get my step-daughter to play with her.
> 
> The seizure lasted about a minute - legs out straight and trashing, eyes wide open, mouth frothing, and she peed a little. Afterwards, she was very disoriented and seemed to spend the next 5 or so minutes in "re-orientation." She didn't seem to be uncoordinated - at least not any more than when she first wakes up in the mornings - but she was definitely out of it. I called an animal hospital while it was happening and they said if she has another seizure this morning to bring her in. If not, I could wait and take her to my vet this morning which I am doing.


HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!! See in bold re: heartworm meds!...This may very well be the ROOT CAUSE of the seizures.

YOU MUST Absolutely familiarize yourself with MDR-1 Mutation. This means your dog may be unable to remove the drugs deposits in the brain causing toxiicty, seizures and possible death!

THIS is found in herding dogs - most common in collies (3 of 4 have the mutation)...MOST Heartworm meds contain "IVERMECTON"....Toxic with this mutation along with a whole proven list of drugs incuding some anestetics!!!

Get off the Ivermecton drug, get the coco oil and L-Glutamine.
You do not need to "test" for the mutation, just so Vet can use a specific drug.

Just stay away from the noted drugs....you vet should know these. The link provides a list you can give to your vet....the drugs and suspected drugs are listed at bottom of page

Note to all reading this...GO TO THE LINK...take control of your dogs health!

busteralert.org


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Gatorbytes,
That's really good stuff. My girl has had seizures since she was two. Well, two weeks before her second birthday any way. The first vet was annoying as he treated us like morons and would say: 
"Give her another pill"
By the time I called and said "this isn't working; she's over medicated."
He didn't take us seriously, he literally told me to "deal with the behavior issues" Um. No, I pretty much can recognize over drugged vs. behavioral issues.
I've gone through three vets before I found one that I've liked and listens and really tries to work with it.
She still has Ataxia but we've lowered her Pheno levels and she's learned to adjust to it. Too bad really, she would have been really good in tracking. I've taken up looking into dock diving.
I just can't take her to work....too much animation and the floors are concrete. 
If you search, I've posted questions re: homeopathic flea remedies and got some good answers. Stuff that I've saved to Word doc and keep.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I might add as well that DO NOT use a spray bottle for correction training.
My girl doesn't do heat well either and besides her pool, hosing her down, we will lie around and I will use a spray bottle to mist ourselves. She loves it. I'll keep one in my car when we run errands and mist her at red lights. (if it's not to hot to actually go out in the first place)
The little dog that I inherited from my mother used to get corrected with a spray bottle will literally run and hide when I pull it out.
I've been working to overcome that with Zoey. (the weasel)


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

CarrieJ said:


> Gatorbytes,
> That's really good stuff. My girl has had seizures since she was two. Well, two weeks before her second birthday any way. The first vet was annoying as he treated us like morons and would say:
> "Give her another pill"
> By the time I called and said "this isn't working; she's over medicated."
> ...


 
Good for you...you know your dog better than any vet. Hopefully the info provided helps people help their dogs and saves themselves a lot of grief pain and $$$

Research Research Research...
MDR-1
L-Glutamine
Coconut Oil
Magnesium
B complex
B-12 and...
Intrinsic Factor
Chiropractor
Iatrnic caused illness re: vaccination, Ivermectin (Heartworm prevention)


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I understand where your coming from Gatorbytes and thats all fine and well. I deffinately agree about vaccines, heartworm preventives and everything else. Everything and anything can be a trigger for seizures. The sad thing is I never realized how many dogs suffer from them until my dog had them. Unfortunately I've been on this road for over 6 years, I had high hopes of some day she would get off the meds, unfortunately that day will never come. So I try to make the best decisions for all of my dogs that I can.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

kiya said:


> I understand where your coming from Gatorbytes and thats all fine and well. I deffinately agree about vaccines, heartworm preventives and everything else. Everything and anything can be a trigger for seizures. The sad thing is I never realized how many dogs suffer from them until my dog had them. Unfortunately I've been on this road for over 6 years, I had high hopes of some day she would get off the meds, unfortunately that day will never come. So I try to make the best decisions for all of my dogs that I can.


Research Research Research!

I am sorry you have resided that the day will never come...go outside teh conventional box. The cure is in the cuboard. Go the MDR-1 Link...the cause may be in a past drug....heal the brain, the nervous system, optimal diet with focus on disease related deficiencies...

Ya may find hope for what is a seemingly hopeless situation
busteralert.org


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

Bella had a seizure about an hour ago - 12:59am. She just now laid down after stumbling around the house. Of course my wife and I were asleep, so we didn't notice any pre-seizure signs. Although, the power went out for the whole block at around 12:30 but only lasted 4 or 5 minutes. It woke us up, and Bella just laid on floor watching us. I even took her outside to pee before going back to bed.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Sorry to hear about that. Are you keeping a journal? Hopefully it will be a long time before the next one.
It's still very stressful for me when Kiya has a siezure, but not like it used to be. I think now I get more disappointed than anything. We just go thru the motions, it's like second nature now. The count begins again.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

The fatty protection of myelin sheaths if insufficient, brain short circuits as there is no insulation to protect electrical neural travelling....B-12, L-Carnitine (needed to deliver exensial fatty acids to the cells)

Heavy metals are electrically conductive and causes the brain to short circuit. 

In CAT scans show as white dots (metals absorb the radiation so they appear white) on the brain. Those are the heavy metals that deposits.

Ketogenic diet and COCONUT OIL

Seizure control
Although many hypotheses have been put forward to explain how the ketogenic diet works, it remains a mystery. Disproven hypotheses include systemic acidosis (high levels of acid in the blood), electrolyte changes and hypoglycaemia (low blood glucose).[18] Although many biochemical changes are known to occur in the brain of a patient on the ketogenic diet, it is not known which of these has an anticonvulsant effect. The lack of understanding in this area is similar to the situation with many anticonvulsant drugs.[52]
On the ketogenic diet, carbohydrates are restricted and so cannot provide for all the metabolic needs of the body. Instead, fatty acids are used as the major source of fuel. These are used through fatty-acid oxidation in the cell's mitochondria (the energy-producing part of the cell). Humans can convert some amino acids into glucose by a process called gluconeogenesis, but cannot do this for fatty acids.[53] Since amino acids are needed to make proteins, which are essential for growth and repair of body tissues, these cannot be used only to produce glucose. This could pose a problem for the brain, since it is normally fuelled solely by glucose, and fatty acids do not cross the blood–brain barrier. Fortunately, the liver can use fatty acids to synthesise the three ketone bodies β-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate and acetone. These ketone bodies enter the brain and substitute for glucose.[52]
The ketone bodies are possibly anticonvulsant in themselves; in animal models, acetoacetate and acetone protect against seizures. The ketogenic diet results in adaptive changes to brain energy metabolism that increase the energy reserves; ketone bodies are a more efficient fuel than glucose, and the number of mitochondria is increased. This may help the neurons to remain stable in the face of increased energy demand during a seizure, and may confer a neuroprotective effect.[52]
The ketogenic diet has been studied in at least 14 rodent animal models of seizures. It is protective in many of these models and has a different protection profile than any known anticonvulsant. Conversely, fenofibrate, not used clinically as an antiepileptic, exhibits experimental anticonvulsant properties in adult rats comparable to the ketogenic diet.[54] This, together with studies showing its efficacy in patients who have failed to achieve seizure control on half a dozen drugs, suggests a unique mechanism of action.[52]
Anticonvulsants suppress epileptic seizures, but they neither cure nor prevent the development of seizure susceptibility. The development of epilepsy (epileptogenesis) is a process that is poorly understood. A few anticonvulsants (valproate, levetiracetam and benzodiazepines) have shown antiepileptogenic properties in animal models of epileptogenesis. However, no anticonvulsant has ever achieved this in a clinical trial in humans. The ketogenic diet has been found to have antiepileptogenic properties in rats. 

To recap:

Look into Ketogenic diet..follow a doggie type Ketogenic diet (people require grains - dogs do NOT...eating carbohydrates w/protein - bad)
Feed this diet RAW (you can cook the veg for easier digestion), Meat that hasn't been cooked contains all necessary (100% of) AMINO ACIDS - no need to suppliment
Include 2-3 Tblspoons of Coconut oil (Virgin, cold extracted), incorporate slowly increase a tsp. at a time over few weeks re: Ketones...brain is made up of over 60% fat, the brain needs this FAT
Include Magnesium in new diet as well a multi Vitamin/Min. suppliment
DO NOT EVER VACCINATE AGAIN re: HEAVY METAL TOXICITY...research
L-glutamine - amino acid - Brain fuel
STOP HEARTGARD re: MDR-1 mutation...
Hear me now or hear me later...

Your dog is having seizures...you can manage it w/drugs (which doesn't seem to be working) or manage it with what the body recognizes and uses for all processes - food, enzymes, amino acids, vitamins, minerals


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Your dogs seizures are NOT idiopathic.
They are Iatrogenic.

Let food be thy medicine and let the medicine be thy food ~ Hippocretes


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

It's great when people give advice and suggestions but honestly there is no need to preach to others.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

kiya said:


> It's great when people give advice and suggestions but honestly there is no need to preach to others.


Some need a little push, some need a shove...

With all the drugged out fenobarbitol drunken "side effects" dogs I have read about on this site...???

if "preaching" food as gosspel - GUILTY!...

honestly, there is a need, or else there wouldn't be so many people looking for answers for the many unhappy messed up dogs.

I personally don't _expect_ that someone will take the advice per this thread, I can _hope _(for the dogs sake).
Millions search the internet and when they come across this, if it helps a current situation OR prevents one...Then call it preaching, call it advice, call it a warning. I don't care. I CARE about dogs


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> Some need a little push, some need a shove...
> 
> With all the drugged out* fenobarbitol* drunken "side effects" dogs I have read about on this site...???
> 
> ...


 
Phenobarbitol

I could copy and paste all the articles I've read, put all the links to websites on my favorites that I've spent countless hours on, the different support groups I belong to. But when you live with a dog that was diagnosed with "Idiopathic Epilepsy" in November of 2005 you learn there is no "cure all" you try to find what works for your particular dog and yourself. What works for one dog may not work for another. It's just not that cut and dry. Epilepsy is not a new disease.
There is nothing more important to me than my dogs and if sharing my experiences of the last 6 plus years with someone who is new to this helps that person, I am glad. Because when it all began for me I thought my dog was going to die right before my very eyes. Then I found support from others who understood what I was going thru and I wasn't alone.
Please don't turn this into an arguement. 
This is something I feel extremely strong about.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

kiya said:


> Phenobarbitol
> 
> I could copy and paste all the articles I've read, put all the links to websites on my favorites that I've spent countless hours on, the different support groups I belong to. But when you live with a dog that was diagnosed with "Idiopathic Epilepsy" in November of 2005 you learn there is no "cure all" you try to find what works for your particular dog and yourself. What works for one dog may not work for another. It's just not that cut and dry. Epilepsy is not a new disease.
> There is nothing more important to me than my dogs and if sharing my experiences of the last 6 plus years with someone who is new to this helps that person, I am glad. Because when it all began for me I thought my dog was going to die right before my very eyes. Then I found support from others who understood what I was going thru and I wasn't alone.
> ...


Certainly, this isn't an arguement, it's a discussion...
What alternatives did you try other than phenobarbitol?
Epilespy has no cure, but can be managed, how it is managed is a matter of choice...the Dog owner...W/O any other prospects on how to manage, then the only alternative is to take a vets advice.

Consult w/a holistic Vet (integrative as in a DVM), and you will get a whole other perspective on how to manage. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.
I can appreciate your posts in the supportive manner, but sometimes bringing forth a "I know what your going through and have been for 6 years" validates that the OP has no options....he has options.
Your choices and treatment methods are yours...and I hope to never ever have this problem, that is why I will not vaccinate ever again...I saw early warning signs...staring up at ceiling, unresponsive to name, lashing out at everyone and everything (symptom of rabies/rabies vaccine), extreme weight gain (20lbs.) from damage to thyroid (symptom of vaccinosis)...that was in 2008, I spent tons of money trying to change my dogs "behaviour"...I changed his diet, never vaccinated again...my dog has NEVER had a seizure...But I recognized this early and made appropriate changes....including taking grains out of diet


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

When Kiya "clustered" she almost went into status epilepticus, uncontrollable seizures, which could have resulted in death, she was given a loading dosage of Phenobarbital (pb) and a prescription for potassium bromide that had to be compounded at the pharmacy. You can not and must not stop meds once they are on them, anti seizure meds are addictive and you must wean them off with doctors supervision. There was nothing more that I wanted but to get her off the drugs. Shortly after that I went to a well known holistic doctor on Long Island, Doctor Wen. Right off the bat he told me that the conventional medicine must be used in conjunction with his herbal remedy. I took Kiya to him for almost a year, she was to get 8 of his pills ($1 per pill) a day plus the pheno & potassium bromide. After almost a year of no seizures, I began reducing her pb by 15mg every few weeks by consulting with my vet. Once I got her down to 15mg from the original 97mg resulting in a seizure, up the dosage back to 30mg for some time. Last year she had 7 which was a lot for her, we decided to up the dosage to 60mg . I do not do annual vaccines for my dogs any longer, only rabies every 3 years. 
There are too many variables, too many triggers and no way for me to ever pin point what caused this. I was accused of letting my puppy get into rat poison, to later learn that her sire produced 2 litters after her litter, and that 1 pup was put down from uncontrollable seizures from the 1st litter and the 2nd litter had 2 pups that I know of that had seizures.
I also found out that my 30 year old step brother has seizures, he hasn't had one in several years but MUST continue his meds. 
The best advise I ever got was from my original vet, he said "you could spend thousands and thousands of dollars and never get an answer, lets just get her under control and take it from there." That's what I did.
I try not to let it consume me, but at times it does.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

kiya said:


> When Kiya "clustered" she almost went into status epilepticus, uncontrollable seizures, which could have resulted in death, she was given a loading dosage of Phenobarbital (pb) and a prescription for potassium bromide that had to be compounded at the pharmacy. You can not and must not stop meds once they are on them, anti seizure meds are addictive and you must wean them off with doctors supervision. There was nothing more that I wanted but to get her off the drugs. Shortly after that I went to a well known holistic doctor on Long Island, Doctor Wen. Right off the bat he told me that the conventional medicine must be used in conjunction with his herbal remedy. I took Kiya to him for almost a year, she was to get 8 of his pills ($1 per pill) a day plus the pheno & potassium bromide. After almost a year of no seizures, I began reducing her pb by 15mg every few weeks by consulting with my vet. Once I got her down to 15mg from the original 97mg resulting in a seizure, up the dosage back to 30mg for some time. Last year she had 7 which was a lot for her, we decided to up the dosage to 60mg . I do not do annual vaccines for my dogs any longer, only rabies every 3 years.
> There are too many variables, too many triggers and no way for me to ever pin point what caused this. I was accused of letting my puppy get into rat poison, to later learn that her sire produced 2 litters after her litter, and that 1 pup was put down from uncontrollable seizures from the 1st litter and the 2nd litter had 2 pups that I know of that had seizures.
> I also found out that my 30 year old step brother has seizures, he hasn't had one in several years but MUST continue his meds.
> The best advise I ever got was from my original vet, he said "you could spend thousands and thousands of dollars and never get an answer, lets just get her under control and take it from there." That's what I did.
> I try not to let it consume me, but at times it does.


Have you considered the Rabies vaccination as a cause for relapse (re: aluminum as and adjuvant in the vaccine)?. As you can see in my post this has to be addressed by a mult-facited approach...the list isn't a pick one or the other, it works as a whole...Have you ever titered for rabies? you would be shocked at the amout of antibodies...1:5 ratio means protection...my Homeopathic Vet book describes a dog w/yearly rabies, the ratio 1:64,000, he likened it to nuclear explosion going on in the dog...this dog was having seizures...it was brought under control w/diet, homeopathics, and suppliments.

I feel for you and your dog. It can't get any easier seeing an episode regardless how long you have had to deal with...:hug:

The holistic vet may not have been the "right" one...one pill 8x per day is questionable, was there other protocols he advised to follow, or just that one?...


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

The holistic doctor is well known, highly respected, this was the "herbal" suppliement Epitrol - A supplement designed for animals with primary epilepsy. - White Crane Herbal Supplements! it was 8 pills a day and I simply couldn't afford to continue.

Actually I am more convinced that her seizures are more heredity than environmental. I have tried to go on and live as normal of a life as we can. She does fine, trust me, specially if she sees a squirrel.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> The fatty protection of myelin sheaths if insufficient, brain short circuits as there is no insulation to protect electrical neural travelling....B-12, L-Carnitine (needed to deliver exensial fatty acids to the cells)
> 
> Heavy metals are electrically conductive and causes the brain to short circuit.
> 
> ...


*Whoaaaaaa! Back the truck up...Although L-Glutamine is indicated for so many neurological disorders - in the case of Idiopathic Epilepsy..."cause unknown"...Glutamine should not be taken with any condition that results in an accumulation of ammonia in the blood...disrgard!!!!*


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

kiya said:


> The holistic doctor is well known, highly respected, this was the "herbal" suppliement Epitrol - A supplement designed for animals with primary epilepsy. - White Crane Herbal Supplements! it was 8 pills a day and I simply couldn't afford to continue.
> 
> Actually I am more convinced that her seizures are more heredity than environmental. I have tried to go on and live as normal of a life as we can. She does fine, trust me, specially if she sees a squirrel.


kiya, first i only know a bit about people medicine, not vet medicine. i would just stick with science as in follow the vets advice. i doubt epitrol is doing anything, otherwise drug companies would test and market it for human use, so far they haven't. Not shots for your dogs? distemper and parvo are more of a risk than than uncontrolled seizures. i had great pyr with epilepsy, so i understand.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As far as vaccinations, you can titer and New York does have Rabies exemption for immune suppressed dogs. I just titered for Parvo, Distemper and Rabies and it was $150 for all. Rabies titer was half that.

We all do what we can for our animals and shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not subscribing to a different treatment philosophy.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> kiya, first i only know a bit about people medicine, not vet medicine. i would just stick with science as in follow the vets advice. i doubt epitrol is doing anything, otherwise drug companies would test and market it for human use, so far they haven't. Not shots for your dogs? distemper and parvo are more of a risk than than uncontrolled seizures. i had great pyr with epilepsy, so i understand.


Drug companies would NOT test and market, this is because they cannot patent nature, nature is free, medicine is not...drug companies only use their money to test and market drugs...sounds like the epitrol was working, the ATM machine wasn't, however, that "herb combination" can be broken down and sourced out individually at a fraction of the cost. The cost of Veterinary medicine, whether it is conventional or holistic....it's opportunistic!

I'd much rather find a vet who says go to your local health food store and buy this


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Your dogs seizures are NOT idiopathic.
> They are Iatrogenic.
> 
> Let food be thy medicine and let the medicine be thy food ~ Hippocretes


i understand your passion, but not getting routine yearly parvo and distemper along with scheduled rabies shots is just bad advice. as for your post, first, metal does not absorb radiation, it deflects it. as for you diet, although it may have have some very good value, it will not stop seizures. if it does please post some studies along with the controls that were used used.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunter - I agree with the majority of your posts but there are studies out there, and veterinary organizations, that have proven getting a yearly parvo/distemper is not only not good, but not required as the immunity last much longer.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> i understand your passion, *but not getting routine yearly parvo and distemper *along with scheduled rabies shots is just bad advice. as for your post, first, metal does not absorb radiation, it deflects it. as for you diet, although it may have have some very good value, it will not stop seizures. if it does please post some studies along with the controls that were used used.


I believe this is one of the biggest problems. Yearly boosters are not necessary most vets have gone to 2 year or 3 year protocal. My original vet told me years ago it was not necessary when I had my old GSD Chazzy in for yearly boosters at 8 years old, he told me she did not need them that was before Kiya started her seizures. All my puppies get all required shots, 1 year boosters and now I am deciding with Lakota, who had her 1 year boosters last summer, to do 2 year 3 year or titer. Definately not yearly.


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## KennyFrench (Jun 13, 2012)

I started to respond but I started getting way too long winded. So, I'll just say this. My vet considers himself to be a holistic vet. The *first* thing he wanted to do was run some blood tests to rule out internal organ issues or poisoning. It wasn't until the blood tests came back clear and I told him about the second and third seizures that he prescribed Pheno. And then, it was only to get the seizures under control. 

I read somewhere that a dog's seizure is the equivalent to a human running a marathon. With that in mind, seizures can become a life-threatening situation. If a single seizure lasts more than 1 or 2 minutes or if seizures are coming less than an hour apart, the dog can overheat and can't cool down. This can and has led to brain damage and even death. The important thing is to get the seizures under control, figure out what is causing them and then come up with a long-term treatment. 

Rabies vaccine: I don't have much of a choice here. The city in which I live requires it. I live in the 'burbs but there is a greenbelt and creek behind our house and there are all manner of wild animals out there including coyotes. There is a walking trail that runs along the greenbelt. A neighbor was telling me that a woman was walking the trail one afternoon with her small dog and a coyote attacked and ran off with her dog. Not to mention all the stray/feral cats in the area, one of which was living under our wood deck before we moved in. 

I get so tired of all the drug commercials on TV. It seems the first thing doctors want to do is medicate. I very rarely take prescription medication myself. The strongest thing I take is Ibuprofen and that's only when my allergy-induced headaches get so bad that I can't function. The trouble with having a sick dog is that she can’t tell me where it hurts or how she feels. Bella even has a hard time telling me she needs to go outside.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> kiya, first i only know a bit about people medicine, not vet medicine.* i would just stick with science as in follow the vets advice.* i doubt epitrol is doing anything, otherwise drug companies would test and market it for human use, so far they haven't. Not shots for your dogs? distemper and parvo are more of a risk than than uncontrolled seizures. i had great pyr with epilepsy, so i understand.


First rule dealing with epilepsy - *always question everything, including your vet.* There is no one size fits all, it is trial and error and predominantly the pet owner who lives with the dog to help decide the course of action that best fits the scenario.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> As far as vaccinations, you can titer and New York does have Rabies exemption for immune suppressed dogs. I just titered for Parvo, Distemper and Rabies and it was $150 for all. Rabies titer was half that.
> 
> We all do what we can for our animals and shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not subscribing to a different treatment philosophy.


Wow, Rabies titer here is $200. But I have never had the rabies police show up at my door, nor AC ask to provide proof when re-license.

But Jax reiterates the vaccine exclusion...

Yes, Kiya did go outside the box, and it was too expensive. We are having a forum discussion...not a guilt trip. I'm not looking down on her, I am however miffed by conventional western medicine and the toll it is taking on our pets. People put faith and trust in the Docs...I think it is a disservice that Vets are NOT proactive by taking the steps to minimize toxicity (still vaccinating even though seizures are present). Inserts in vaccines say not to vaccinate a sick pet...Epilepsy is illness. That in my eyes is malpractice


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

kiya said:


> I believe this is one of the biggest problems. Yearly boosters are not necessary most vets have gone to 2 year or 3 year protocal. My original vet told me years ago it was not necessary when I had my old GSD Chazzy in for yearly boosters at 8 years old, he told me she did not need them that was before Kiya started her seizures. All my puppies get all required shots, 1 year boosters and now I am deciding with Lakota, who had her 1 year boosters last summer, to do 2 year 3 year or titer. Definately not yearly.


you are correct, guess i am dating myself. i am in north jersey and am very familiar with LI, with raccoons and other wildlife in our area, all carrying rabies, parvo and 3 cases of distemper here in sussex county, i vote for controlling the seizures and shots to prevent other problems.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carolyn - If you decide to titer, PM me and I'll send you the place where my doc sent the titers. He looks around for the best price.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> i understand your passion, but not getting routine yearly parvo and distemper along with scheduled rabies shots is just bad advice. as for your post, first, metal does not absorb radiation, it deflects it. as for you diet, although it may have have some very good value, it will not stop seizures. if it does please post some studies along with the controls that were used used.


How do you know diet won't stop seizures...repair the wiring. May not stop due to many factors such as enviromental toxicity (unavoidable), but can reduce the frequency, the toxins you put in (incl. type of food), the dosing of meds, and in some instances stop altogether.

Brain tumer may be the cause...chances of fixing that are pretty slim. But if it because of heavy metal toxicity...prevent, nourish, remove


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

because i subscribe to that school of thought that this not caused by food or enviroment, tumor, head injury, and genetics. i have not seen one study in "humans" that points to metals. if that was the case it could be cured, not just managed. again show me a study that proves me wrong. the diet you advocate, i am sure has its place, and some of what you say is true, but whatever you call it, chicken soup is not going to cure epilepsy. nor will it prevent parvo, distemper or rabies. you do understand that if people follow your advice and stop these shots, some dogs and people are going die.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> hunter - I agree with the majority of your posts but there are studies out there, and veterinary organizations, that have proven getting a yearly parvo/distemper is not only not good, but not required as the immunity last much longer.


we don't disagree at all, i am from the era of yearly vaccines. either the vaccines have improved or the science has improved, but there is science behind your statement. there are ways to prove that the vaccine is still working longer than expected through blood tests. booster shots may be replaced with blood tests and given only if needed. i just disagree boosters without blood tests should just be eliminated. i have also "heard" of a super parvo, i have not researched it, but it seems to be resistant to current vaccines.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

gator, i think you and i are going to have to just agree to disagree, although i see value to your approach, i believe it should be used with, not instead of current vet medicine. also, i just went to a funeral for a friend who just died of lung ca. non smoker, into health and alternative medicine. his type of ca would have responded to cheo an could have lived a good 3 years longer. he instead went with alternative medicine promising a cure, charged him thousands of dollars and he lasted 4 months, as they promised a cure not just a few more years.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> because i subscribe to that school of thought that this not caused by food or enviroment, tumor, head injury, and genetics. i have not seen one study in "humans" that points to metals. if that was the case it could be cured, not just managed. again show me a study that proves me wrong. the diet you advocate, i am sure has its place, and some of what you say is true, but whatever you call it, chicken soup is not going to cure epilepsy. nor will it prevent parvo, distemper or rabies. you do understand that if people follow your advice and stop these shots, some dogs and people are going die.


Then you subscribe to the school of ignorance. If it is none of the above, then what is it that is causing the seizures...and what is it that you cannot comprehend about the roll diet takes,drugs, toxins, vaccines, water, deficiencies...it's not one thing, it's a cluster...and one thing, one drug, one herb ain't going to fix it or help it, but prevention can for future dogs....the primary reason for my post was to encourage for the SAKE of the animals who is suffering from drug side effects on drugs that are not working well....there are other things that can be done.

L/U the Ketogenic diet...look up coconut oil and it's roll in stimulating ketones in the brain in altzheimers...better yet here is a link...happy reading

Keep it simple and read the third link...

Peer Reviewed Research | Coconut Oil
Research on Coconut Oil | Coconut Oil
Coconut Oil – Here’s what you need to know about this amazing rejuvenation and healing oil | TruthTheory

No one is going to die because people stopped their dogs shots as long as they had their first year done, and then get tested (titers) to see if they have antibodies that show they are protected...the only ones dying are the pets that are subjected to the malpractice of inoculting sick pets. Period. It's called Vaccinosis...do you jam a lead pencil in your arm? then why jamb aluminum and formaldehyde in your dog...parvo is a puppy illnes, bortadella is a self regulating bacteria...even if pooch gets the shot, can still get kennel cough

And to clarify...I never said to stop giving anti seizure meds. In case you misappropriate that.

The problem is, despite the meds, The dog is still having a lot of seizures


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> gator, i think you and i are going to have to just agree to disagree, although i see value to your approach, i believe it should be used with, not instead of current vet medicine. also, i just went to a funeral for a friend who just died of lung ca. non smoker, into health and alternative medicine. his type of ca would have responded to cheo an could have lived a good 3 years longer. he instead went with alternative medicine promising a cure, charged him thousands of dollars and he lasted 4 months, as they promised a cure not just a few more years.


I am sorry about your friend...cancer is tricky, and sometimes too far advanced for any treatment including chemo.

I recently read a poll of cancer doctors - when asked if they were diagnosed with cancer would the subscribe to the treatment they prescibe....75% said NO. That's Cancer doctors. Studies found only 2-4% of patients benefit from chemotherapy and is well documented and known that the killing the healthy cells along with the cancerous ones not only is ineffective but opens the door for the disease to excelerate...Most Chemo patients don't make it to their 5 yr. cancer free mark. Sometimes the treatment is worse then the disease.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Book Description*

Publication Date: *May 1 2003* 
Veterinary vaccines are given to prevent disease, yet studies show that they are often debilitating and fatal. They have been linked to autoimmune and neurological disorders, including cancer, diabetes, arthritis, tumors, seizures, allergies, digestive problems, organ failure, and many other serious ailments. Many veterinarians, both conventional and holistic, are questioning the validity of annual revaccination. They are moving away from this arbitrary recommendation which is unsupported by science. Many also refuse to use certain vaccines because the disease in question is either so benign or rare that the risks associated with vaccination outweigh any promised benefit. This important book provides information on all canine and feline vaccines. It includes several personal stories of vaccine damage to family pets, as well as hundreds of studies documenting veterinary vaccine safety and efficacy problems. As a concerned pet owner, you can now make informed decisions about the health and welfare of your precious four-legged friends.

*Review*

"Finally, an educational resource on the problems with 'preventive' medicine. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why drug companies deny vaccine reactions. This book will educate the public."

"Injection and immunization are not synonymous. The automatic yearly application of multiple vaccinations with disregard for the vaccinee's individual life circumstances is a dangerous development." 

*About the Author*

Catherine Diodati, MA, is a vaccine expert, legal consultant, and biomedical ethicist. Her research has been published in several science journals, including the Canadian Medical Association Journal and Medical Hypotheses. She is the author of "Immunization: History, Ethics, Law and Health," the first book to examine vaccination from a bioethical perspective. Catherine travels internationally to provide professional presentations on vaccination. 








Vaccine Guide for Dogs and Cats: What Every Pet Lover Should Know: Amazon.ca: Catherine J.M. Diodati: Books


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

huntergreen said:


> . i have also "heard" of a super parvo, i have not researched it, but it seems to be resistant to current vaccines.


I as well. I talked to the vet that does chiro on Jax. He said the dogs are dead in 24 hours. He thinks that the current Parvo vaccine may hold some cross protection. Viruses and bacteria mutate...proven...our role in their mutation is pretty far reaching.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GatorBytes;

I started a separate thread on Alternative vs Traditional because this one is way beyond seizures.

I think the discussion is worth while.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> GatorBytes;
> 
> I started a separate thread on Alternative vs Traditional because this one is way beyond seizures.
> 
> I think the discussion is worth while.


Terrific Jack's Dad...I have a link(s)


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## Twitchy (Mar 19, 2012)

Wow, timely thread, I haven't been here in months but the day I pop back in there's a huge seizure thread.

Here's my 2 cents. 

My dog is 1.5yrs old. Had her first seizure before her first birthday. Minimally vax'd (parvo/distemper, rabies given almost 2 months after last parvo/distemper, NO bordetella, Lepto, or flea meds ever given) Ate high quality dry (orijen) and now switched to RAW for about 6 months. Was spayed to prevent surging hormones from lowering threshhold for seizures. Takes coconut oil, vitamin C, fish oil, and vit E. We do not use any kind of pesticide around our house and she is not out unattended to get into anything. She is very micro managed as I am a self avowed control freak. We have NOT managed to go 2 full months seizure free since this nightmare started. Even with meds (she takes an expensive human drug that minimizes side effects/liver damage) she cannot go 2 months (yet, I have hope still). 

I have not given her the 1 year booster shots. I am torn. Part of me wants to get her those at least and then never vaccinate again. Part of me says forget it I'm not taking a chance that they will lower her threshhold even a bit. 

She sees her regular vet a lot and her neuro as well (since she takes a drug my regular vet is not familiar with). Bottom line, the neuro feels that this is a case of Genetic Epilepsy. Basically, she got the suck end deal of the recessive genetic deck. Could have been hiding in recessive genes for generations until it paired up just right.  Crap happens. 

I have to accept this and deal with the dog I have. This means doing as much as I can to not cause further seizures or lowering of the threshold but also accepting that she is going to have seizures sometimes no matter what I do. 

My 1st job is to make sure she has as few as possible to avoid the "kindling" effect where the brain learns to fall into this pattern. The meds have helped. I think the RAW diet MAY help, it certainly does NOT hurt. 

My 2nd job is to make sure she lives a full, happy life. She has epilepsy, but epilepsy does not have her. Trite, but true. So we play, we train, we enjoy each seizure free day we are lucky enough to have. We are disappointed and sad when seizures happen and break whatever our current streak is but we deal with it and we MOVE on and we reset our count back to zero. 

I think looking into alternative causes/treatments (low thyroid, vaccinosis, etc) is worthwhile but I also think that acceptance is vital as well. Great if you can find something that you can treat naturally and "cure" your dog's seizures if they are actually a symptom of something else rather than the diagnosis of epilepsy. But I don't believe that's the case for every dog and letting your dog continue to seize and seize because you are determined to "find" the cause is ridiculous. My dog lived a pretty "natural" life before epilepsy and definitely lives a less processed one now but the importance/help of the drugs she takes cannot be overlooked as well. Does it suck that she will take meds for life? Yup, but that beats coming home to find her in status and taking her to an er vet hoping that they can pull her out of status and then hoping that it hasn't caused life alterating brain damage from the high temps and stress on the dog.  

Epilepsy sucks. But it could be worse. 99% of the time my dog is my same old normal dog. 1% of the time she's not. I worry about her. I have to schedule my life a little weird sometimes to make sure she gets her drugs. Do I wish I had a dog that didn't have epilepsy. God, YES! But I don't. I have her. So I do what needs to be done. I love her to bits and she's worth it and then some.

Twitchy.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Hi Twitchy sorry to hear about your dog. Since your really looking into alternatives, did you ever look into gold bead implants? Also kbr (potassium bromide) is not processed thru the liver, it could be considered as an add on drug.
Just for the record after 6 years being on phenobarbitol, Kiya's liver values are not that bad, last time alt was in the 332 range (which isn't bad considering, shes due to be tested now). I had started giving her silymarin milk thistle 1000mg shortly after she began this journey. Last summer my vet thought it might be good to give her more so we agreed to double the dosage to bid (twice a day).


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

kiya said:


> Hi Twitchy sorry to hear about your dog. Since your really looking into alternatives, did you ever look into gold bead implants? Also kbr (potassium bromide) is not processed thru the liver, it could be considered as an add on drug.
> Just for the record after 6 years being on phenobarbitol, Kiya's liver values are not that bad, last time alt was in the 332 range (which isn't bad considering, shes due to be tested now). I had started giving her silymarin milk thistle 1000mg shortly after she began this journey. Last summer my vet thought it might be good to give her more so we agreed to double the dosage to bid (twice a day).


 
That's Awesome!!! adding in dandilion will also work as an adjuvant to the milk thistle...add leaves to food (finely chopped + extra nutrients) and the root as tincture (alcohol free in this case), dandilion also mild diuretic which helps w/flushing kidneys which takes brunt when liver is under stress...but I'd check with holistic vet first on that one


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

So I take it she was vaxed as puppy - was the protocol of spacing vax on first rounds? Has she been immunized since - at 1yr.?

Do you filter her water? These are just questions - not critisims, nor guilt trip as seems to be implied by others about my posts.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> because i subscribe to that school of thought that this not caused by food or enviroment, tumor, head injury, and genetics. i have not seen one study in "humans" that points to metals. if that was the case it could be cured, not just managed. again show me a study that proves me wrong. the diet you advocate, i am sure has its place, and some of what you say is true, but whatever you call it, chicken soup is not going to cure epilepsy. nor will it prevent parvo, distemper or rabies. you do understand that if people follow your advice and stop these shots, some dogs and people are going die.


 
You asked...re: Aluminum, this is from a website "National Vaccine Information Centre...below is a database of disease (see #8 on the list in first link)

Aluminum - Diseases | CTD

And this page (from same source incl. FDA, CDC)

Aluminum In Vaccines

And that is just aluminum...how about mercury?

Mercury In Vaccines

I have more...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

tks gator, interesting reading, some of the studies i find irrefutable. very eye opening. imho, i still feel there is greater risk of rabbies, parvo and distemper with out the vaccines than the risks assoc with vaccines. where i live, rabbies is a real threat with raccoons being the greatest risk. advocating not using the rabbies vaccine is still bad advice. if people follow this advice it will result in death of dogs and i am sure a few people. i think the answer is better vaccines, but until then i will just ask, when was the last time you have come across a recent case of polio, diptheria, tetnis{sp} yellow fever ect. for all the downsides we can find with modern meds we can't ignore that people are healthier and living longer more active lives. there are no ready answers to these problems, many items have been pulled off the shelves at local health food stores due to contaminates, often lead, same problem as with vaccines with less control. 
also, things are going to get worse now that a majority of mfg. of these items are going to china. steve


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

gater-bytes, did you use the lymes vaccine, i am assuming you didn't. wht do you use for to prevent tick bite, and also what do use to prevent heartworm ? tks


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