# At my wits end...



## DaniCh07 (Mar 10, 2016)

So Karma is 7 months old this week. We are still having some issues. The first issue i want to fix is her not listening. She WILL NOT come when called and I don't know how to fix this! I get that she probably has come to associate that with fun time being over which is ultimately my fault. So I have been trying to just call her at random times and treat or pet her and then let her go back to the fun. This doesn't appear to be working...

Issue number 2 is pulling on leash. I have tried treats (she doesnt pay attention to them), changing direction( I end up getting disoriented because of how often I have to change direction) stop walking when she starts to pull. She gets the hint that she is supposed to stop and sit until she is back by my side but then as soon as we start walking she is immediately at the end of the leash and pulling again. I can stop walking about 30 times on a walk and it doesnt seem to help! I really don't know what else to try.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You have a normal GSD teenager! Very normal. (and many other breeds at 7 months are crazy teens too) You could search "At wits end" because we hear that regularly. She sounds like a fun hog and independent. 

Really the solution is to up your game at being a handler. And yes, it is all your fault. I'm saying that with a smile. Most of us have been there. The dog is pushing you to become a better handler. GSDs have a tendency to do that. Remember you got this breed because they are intelligent and energetic, not dumb and lazy. Now is the perfect time to invest in more obedience classes with good GSD trainers and spend more time training. 

I would watch a couple videos by Michael Ellis on tugging and play (Youtube). I would find a trainer that helps you build a better relationship in play. Then you use that as the reward for obedience. Sort of "sit, heel... 2 minutes.... tug game whoop it up fun fun fun." You do this enough and they do start seeing you as both the source for mental and physical stimulation.

Second get a prong collar. Learn how to use it right! You could watch a couple videos but ideally it is a trainer because you don't want to become a nag on a prong collar. They can naturally correct pulling with little effort, but you can use it for training too but you need to know how because there is a possibility of creating problems with them.

So I come back to investing in a good trainer now to get you on track to enjoy years with this girl. She sounds fun to me.

Good luck.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Pinch collar for pulling and leash training. E collar for recall refusal or leave it. But you have to know how to use both correctly. Your pup may be young yet for an e collar, but I think I started around that age as I let mine off leash a lot and needed to have a pretty good recall for her safety. Don't let your pup pull against the pinch collar, give a pop/correction if she does. Of course, mark and reward when you get the behavior you're asking for.


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## DaniCh07 (Mar 10, 2016)

How do i go about marking and rewarding? She pays little to know attention to me on walks. If I offer her treats she wont take them.


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## Orson (Aug 3, 2015)

I went to a obedience class specifically for recall and loose leash walking. There are cheap classes that you can take that help you with this specific problem that doesn't involve taking a full family dog class. 

I don't like the prong collar. I agree to disagree when people say that certain breeds and as a veterinary technician I continue to do so when clients bring up their advocacy for the training tool. I used a Halti Head Collar and a long line - That's it. The class exercise that we did at home that did the job was as follows. For recall this really helped me... 

1. Establish a sit / stay 
2. Take a step back and do the "come" command - when they come to you, repeat the steps. 

As time goes on you increase the distance between you and your dog. This increases attention to the owner and makes it a fun exercise for you and your dog. Obviously this is the positive reinforcement method so rewards are a HUGE thing - every time your dog does something that you like reinforce it with a reward. 

If you want to go with Alpha training that is completely up to you. I am not discouraging any style of training - all depends on what style of training works for you. 

As for pulling, the Halti solved all those issues in itself. Every time they pull the Halti will turn their body so they are facing you / making you the centre of attention. After a few attempts at chasing a squirrel they will clue in that you are the pack leader and need to pay attention to whatever you are doing.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniCh07 said:


> How do i go about marking and rewarding? She pays little to know attention to me on walks. If I offer her treats she wont take them.


Micheal Ellis on Leerburg.com has some great free videos that might be helpful to you. The reality is nothing beats a good trainer familiar with GSD's. The trainer isn't so much training your dog as training you on how to train your dog.

My dog won't take treats on a walk either. Switch to a high value toy. Keep a favorite ball or small stuffy with you as the reward for asked for behavior.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Dogs won't take treats when they are really excited or feeling stressed.Seems like the sights,sounds,and smells during the walk are just way too interesting and she just can't focus on you.Proper use of a prong collar is very effective for recapturing and holding attention.Forget the treats for now,the reward for her will being released to sniff frequently.
What has always worked well for me when teaching recall is to instill at Every Opportunity that coming to me is always a big deal.Always.I always have treats in my pocket at home and out and about and whenever my dog comes near and looks at me,treat and good girl!If I suspect he/she is just too fascinated with that stick,scent,or whatever I will go to him /her instead.Don't give them the opportunity to ignore.It's basically classical conditioning(Pavlov's dog).You program the response.You can substitute a short play session for the treat.
In the case of interrupting pursuit of prey you may have to use an adversive,but the above method is a good foundation.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Orson said:


> I went to a obedience class specifically for recall and loose leash walking. There are cheap classes that you can take that help you with this specific problem that doesn't involve taking a full family dog class.
> 
> I don't like the prong collar. I agree to disagree when people say that certain breeds and as a veterinary technician I continue to do so when clients bring up their advocacy for the training tool. I used a Halti Head Collar and a long line - That's it. The class exercise that we did at home that did the job was as follows. For recall this really helped me...
> 
> ...


Orson,I'm glad the class and the halting worked well for you and your dog.The right tool/method for the dog in front of you.There are other dogs that would seriously hurt themselves slamming the end of a long line with a halti on.Not dissing your method at all,just something to consider before using that tool.


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## beeker (Dec 4, 2015)

I would agree with Orson about the halti collar. I've had success with it. It's based on the idea of 'control the head, control the dog'. Something a bit more controversial (perhaps) concerns adjusting your level of correction. I say controversial because all dogs are different and respond differently, but maybe your puppy needs a more firm type of correction from you. I'm not suggesting yanking him off his feet, but making sure to immediately correct unwanted behavior followed immediately by demonstration of what you do want.

If collar training isn't working, perhaps try something else. The trick is to snap the dog out of what he's doing, maybe with a clicker. I currently have a dog who responds well when she's poked lightly on her hip. It just breaks her concentration (on doing something I don't want) long enough to look at me, which gives me the chance to show her what I do want.

Lastly, I can confidently tell you that you are in good company! Most people on this forum can probably relate to your exasperation. Hang in there..


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A Halti and a long line? Yikes!!! If puppy runs to the end of the long line, her head could snap back with extreme force and cause serious damage! 

I did everything I could to avoid the prong collar with my previous dog - a rescue that never learned to walk on leash and pulled like a herd of wild horses. The prong looked like some medieval torture device, and I felt that going to the prong collar was a sign of my failure to train my dog - after months of frustration I gave in, and with the guidance of a trainer tried the prong - boy, was I wrong about it! It worked so well for a dog that has been desensitized to a regular collar from being tied (in her previous life before I got her). 

Though the name of the collar - Pinch Collar or Prong Collar - gives you the impression that the prongs dig in and pinch, that is not how it works - it's just a feeling of even pressure all around as the force is spread out over a large area. Try it! Put it around your arm, or leg, or even your neck, and tighten the collar - give yourself a correction with it - you'll feel it, you'll certainly sit up and take notice of it, but it won't be what you think. It isnt' the pain of pinching or something digging in - it is strong, but gentle in a way. A prong collar seems to be a very clear method of communication for the dog - and that is what they need to learn behaviours, a clear 'yes' or a clear 'no' .


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## beeker (Dec 4, 2015)

Just want to clarify about the halti collar. My suggestion for its use is with a short leash. The idea is to communicate with the dog that you want it focused on you. I do not put my dogs on a long line until they have demonstrated that they can walk on a short lease and recall when commanded. Likewise, I do not let my dogs off leash (except in an enclosed location) until they can demonstrate focus and recall. 

I think successfully recalling your dog is one of the most important things you can teach and yes, I do believe that any dog can do it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Susan Garett was recommended to me on this forum she offered - free online recall advise called recallers. I found this worked really well and such helpful info. 
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/06/recall-collapse/
https://sayyes.leadpages.co/leadbox...c/5629935204958208/?lp-in-iframe=0&__fromjs=0


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

To the OP - There is some seriously dangerous advice on this thread!!!

A dog learns NOTHING with a head gear of any sort....they are horse equipment and meant to LEAD with....for control of fractious animals, a nose or mouth or lip chain is needed as well.


Your dog needs to LEARN - not just be managed with band aids....

The first thing that you missed out on was imprinting a recall on a very little puppy.....I let pups run and roam (in a safe place of course!) and will run away from them - so when they run to catch up, they get praised, they get treats, they get rewarded - so that from the very start being with you is a good thing....


Now you need some help to get your pup on the right track.....look for somewhere that has classes where the teachers do AKC competition rally or obedience.....here you will learn to manage the dog and train these issues.....I am very lucky to have found an obedience club/school where the owners/teachers are experienced competitors and even AKC judges.....the prong is recognized as a TOOL and for many years I have done foundation training there....right now, my pup is learning the A frame and jumps in an agility class so that I can use these skills in IPO....the key is to use the best resources you can and learn from people who are sucessful


Good Luck


Lee


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## beeker (Dec 4, 2015)

To the OP- Maybe head collars didn't work for this person, but I have achieved results with them. They are simply a tool. My suggestions are just that, suggestions, but I wouldn't post them if I didn't know they could work. Find what works best for you and don't be influenced by the flamers on this board.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I used head halter for my Clydesdale pup and was thinking to get a saddle to!!!!!! No really no harm came to my pup when I used a head halter and used for a short period of time because I used it correctly. Max did not become suddenly still depressed and with out life or thrash around like a lunatic and some may do this and then it is time to try something else. I don't think a head halter would be much help on some 7 month old pups. When max was over 6 months I used a neck tech prong college- to works well. Use any collar/tool correctly safely and listen to your dog. The idea to get across to your dog you are most interesting. When Max got out we run get the ball play like lunatics and have fun when he came automatically this brought him to us as he wanted to play. This is best done without distractions then with distraction on a long lead which is the challenge. Off season beaches where no one is around and very quiet trails is where we are always off lead having fun. When Max was a pup we would walk on a trail and when he came to me without even calling him -he was just checking in -he got a treat. When it's time for him to go on a leash I take him off it right away and play more games of fetch so he does not associate the leash with fun ending. Agility is a great away to mold/bridle energy and teach dogs to be focused in the presence of fun. I also like Susan Garret's recallers all great ideas.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

:angryfire::angryfire::rofl:


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## Zaxx (Jun 15, 2016)

If you can get past the appearance of the prong collar, they really do work well. I had not used a prong before, but we got Axl at 5 months, and he had no training started at all. He was constantly pulling and lunging.

I read up on prongs here, and watched videos by Tyler Muto and Jeff Gellman and decided to give it a try.

Axl got used to the collar within about 10 minutes. He didn't fight it or pull at all. Some dogs may take longer but he took to the collar easily.

All I need to do to keep him dialed in is a flick of the wrist. He doesn't wince, squeal or react negatively at all.

I don't mean to sound like an infomercial, but by the end of the first day with the prong collar my 15 year old, 4'9" step daughter was walking him one handed, loose leash and he was sitting when she stopped. The really are effective.

Not to contradict everything I said here, but if you are still not sure about using a prong, search the forum for slip lead leash. There are many members that seem to have the same results using them.

Good Luck!


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

OP-I wanted to add for recall refusal, are you approaching your pup when you tell her to come? That won't work. Try backing up or walk in another direction when you tell he to come. As far as food not being a motivator for positive reinforcement, don't feed her before training. Nothing wrong with skipping a meal or going down for the night hungry. That'll motivate her. Maybe stop bowl feeding all together and feed/reward from your hand. I had to do that for a while. It takes a lot of time and work but it works.


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

I've used a halti before (on a short lead) and it worked beautifully. I used it on recommendation from my trainer for the Guide Dogs program when I was raising a pup. My dog learned to walk beautifully on leash without one, and I would not discourage someone from giving it a try. Every dog and handler especially in the layman world, is different; what works for one may not work for another and vice versa.

I've also used a prong collar for my husky (big pullers, obviously!) and my husband's 85 pound golden retriever who was too strong for me and had never been leash trained before he was 1 1/2 years. Bad husband! *hand slap* Bless his heart, he'd never had a dog and didn't know better. I'm 5' 2" and needed something effective because the dog was almost bigger than me. It works. 

An idea for leash training I learned from a local dog trainer and that I've been using with success for my puppy. This leans on treat training but if you ration your dog's food and do a mix of training treats I would think you could get some interest in them. (I use the Blue brand, my dog loves them and the ingredients look good) and little bits of cooked chicken breast (because I happen to usually have some in my fridge.) I bring the leash to a 2 foot lead where the dog is by my side. Say your dog's name. Then click, and treat. Every time your dog looks at you, click and treat (eventually you taper off the treats) but the goal is to get your dog paying attention to you and in turn they will walk beside you with slack in the leash. If they're not paying attention, make them sit or change directions. I just started doing this with my puppy and she is responding well to it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A Halti ... gezz .... yeah ... uh "NO." OP ... you've already take the most important first step in gaining control here, "Out Think Your Dog." That process done "properly" involves "Training" your dog to "Make Good Choices!" Not tricking them into "behaving" with the use of gimmicks. 

In the "Real World" people that are already used to yanking and cranking on there dog to get them to behave ... will continue to do with some gimmick on there dog but if they have "crap on there dog heads" that's going to be a problem! No serious "Trainer" or "Dog Owner" uses that crap, it doesn't train a dog to make "Good Choices" it tricks them into behaving. 

Getting it right involves using "real tools" and putting work in. Those tools would be a "Regular Collar and a Flat leash," a "Prong Collar" which for the record is the only collar that (does not concentrate pressure at a single point of contact on the dog's neck) or my tool of choice a Slip Lead Leash, which could injury a dog if used incorrectly (for the record.) But go to basics, and the foundation for getting the "Walk" thing right ... looks like this:






Oh and most likely if your dog gets over the top you?? You find yourself pulling straight back to struggle to regain control??? Yeah ... that's not gonna work, a proper correction is a slight tug "Sideways" to "get the dog off center" then "turn around" or "proceed" forward depending on your skill set. 

And that "slight tug" should be delivered "before the dog reacts to distractions" ie ... don't even think about it dog ... "make a better choice." If a dog is being "tricked into behaving" GL,EZ Walk, Halti etc, one has no idea if they have a dog that is "capable of making Good Choices." That is not a dog I would trust to do "anything reliably??" But hey ... that's just me ... or is it. 

But that stuff said getting you involved into an ongoing debate involving the use of tools among people that "know how to train a dog" ... is not necessarily that helpful?? So ... most likely the "walk, thing and the recall thing are only the tip of the iceberg?? You need a blueprint to address the whole behaviour of the dog, not issue after issue as they crop up. That said ... start here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

That post first and then click on the thread, most likely that member has asked questions that you have yourself?? And the recall thing?? There are lots of ways to train that. Personally I think the simplest is to use a 6 foot leash and start training "Place." 

Once trained use multiple "Placemats" and you can eventual drop the leash and "Recall" the dog to you and to another "Place Mat." KISS, as I am prone to say and in the "Real World" with our newest member on "BoxerForum" and among the youngest well trained "puppies" "I've" ever seen???

Pirates Lair has some alos but I lost the link?? 

"Smokeyandthebandit" 
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLawjxwGrwTGLZlzgjx37f5Kk3lVHL8qX2

I did ask him about the recall training and I believe his answer was "No" nothing special it just happened as part of the "process" in training "Place."


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

beeker said:


> To the OP- Maybe head collars didn't work for this person, but I have achieved results with them. They are simply a tool. My suggestions are just that, suggestions, but I wouldn't post them if I didn't know they could work. Find what works best for you and don't be influenced by the flamers on this board.


You are new. Don't call people flamers because they disagree with you. I have used every type of collar and the head collar is by far the most dangerous if the dog pulls or jerks. They will literally harm themselves without knowing it if they fight it too much. The best way to teach it is when they are young and then reinforce with treats for a long time before using it on a walk. My older dog will use one but hates it because she can't scan for threats, which is her thing. So, I can use it but it's not the best choice. A friend who uses them all the time gave me a lesson on proper use. I would never use it on my puppy as I know he would get hurt. As was said above, the right method for the right dog. And for the right handler.

I said I'd never use a prong. I use one sometimes. I said I would never use an e collar. I didn't understand them. A collar is only one tool. Proper use is important.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DaniCh07 said:


> How do i go about marking and rewarding? She pays little to know attention to me on walks. If I offer her treats she wont take them.


You have a "PM"


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## Orson (Aug 3, 2015)

Very good point. I highly recommend using a short leash in the beginning. I started with a 4 foot leash and now we use a 6 foot leash. This is not a training tool to be used with a flexi leash in the beginning or a long line, that's really not a good idea.


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## Orson (Aug 3, 2015)

I work as a veterinary technician and the majority of injuries caused by training that I have seen has been the improper use of a prong collar. That's why I don't like using them. In fact, I live in Toronto, Ontario and the majority of dog training classes will request that you use a head collar or gentle leader and have banned prong collars completely. I am assuming this is mainly due to the popularity of positive reinforcement training. Even though I do not like using a prong collar I still think this is a little extreme as every dog is different and have their own mental pathway to learning how to adapt to the dog that you want them to be. 

The reason I'm saying this is I'm seeing a lot of biased opinions on the head collar despite my main point which was you needing to find what works for yourself and your dog. If you find the prong collar works better, I am super excited for you! -But if you find it's doing nothing, than don't be afraid to try different training options / exercises / styles. 

To settle all of those "OHMERGERD LONG LINE PLUS HEAD COLLAR" / "THIS THREAD SCARES ME, HEAD COLLARS AHHHH" people here I will list the basic rules of a head collar that any dog trainer will tell you. 

#1 - Do NOT start with a long line. That is crazy to attach a dog who is unfamiliar with wearing a head collar to a long line. Always start with a 4 foot leash or what's called a "street level" leash and work your way up. 

#2 - If you own a FLEXI and attach it to a head collar you are also crazy. Slamming on the lock when your dog is running 100 miles per hour? 

#3 - Realize that this type of training takes time and doesn't happen overnight. You are learning to harness your dogs intelligence into your favour while establishing a pack leader status.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> The first thing that you missed out on was imprinting a recall on a very little puppy.....I let pups run and roam (in a safe place of course!) and will run away from them - so when they run to catch up, they get praised, they get treats, they get rewarded - so that from the very start being with you is a good thing....


Why oh why can't we make these pearls of wisdom a sticky?



beeker said:


> To the OP- Maybe head collars didn't work for this person, but I have achieved results with them. They are simply a tool. My suggestions are just that, suggestions, but I wouldn't post them if I didn't know they could work. Find what works best for you and don't be influenced by the flamers on this board.


This is a forum where many heavily rely on the prong and others use it train. Sadly from what most post, once they put a prong on, training stops and the prong becomes a permanent fixture to manage and control.

Regarding the halti, I know a very experienced dog trainer and breeder of serious working line dogs that does not hesitate to recommend the use of a halti. 

Just out of curiosity, were you able to get your dog trained and retire the halti?


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## Orson (Aug 3, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why oh why can't we make these pearls of wisdom a sticky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I only use it when I'm running with my dog in the morning for safety. Other than that I don't really use it any more but don't get me wrong nobody has retired the halti the first time. If you have, I give you a virtual high five! haha. It took about three times before I felt like we were on the same level / understanding.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Orson said:


> I work as a veterinary technician and the majority of injuries caused by training that I have seen has been the improper use of a prong collar. That's why I don't like using them. In fact, I live in Toronto, Ontario and the majority of dog training classes will request that you use a head collar or gentle leader and have banned prong collars completely. I am assuming this is mainly due to the popularity of positive reinforcement training. Even though I do not like using a prong collar I still think this is a little extreme as every dog is different and have their own mental pathway to learning how to adapt to the dog that you want them to be.
> 
> The reason I'm saying this is I'm seeing a lot of biased opinions on the head collar despite my main point which was you needing to find what works for yourself and your dog. If you find the prong collar works better, I am super excited for you! -But if you find it's doing nothing, than don't be afraid to try different training options / exercises / styles.
> 
> ...


Orson, in your very first reply you recommended a halti and a long line.The use of the long line was what some us took issue with.Just keep in mind all of the newbies and non members reading these posts and proofread before you hit send.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Orson said:


> I only use it when I'm running with my dog in the morning for safety. Other than that I don't really use it any more but don't get me wrong nobody has retired the halti the first time. If you have, I give you a virtual high five! haha. It took about three times before I felt like we were on the same level / understanding.


LOL, no, I was not talking the first time, I meant in the long run. :smile2:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

MAWL I retired my prong recently and switched to a martingale.Yay!I went with the prong initially because I just wasn't able to communicate with Samson effectively with a regular collar.I blame arthritis and lack of strength in my hands as I age.A light touch is all that's needed with the prong.And now a light touch with the martingale works exactly the same.


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## Orson (Aug 3, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Orson, in your very first reply you recommended a halti and a long line.The use of the long line was what some us took issue with.Just keep in mind all of the newbies and non members reading these posts and proofread before you hit send.


Ah yes I see how people would get up in arms about that part of comment. I also stated right in the beginning that I went to a specialized class for this specific type training (recall) but I guess I should have emphasized that I was under the supervision of a professional in a training facility. Thanks for the heads up.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> MAWL I retired my prong recently and switched to a martingale.Yay!I went with the prong initially because I just wasn't able to communicate with Samson effectively with a regular collar.I blame arthritis and lack of strength in my hands as I age.A light touch is all that's needed with the prong.And now a light touch with the martingale works exactly the same.


:groovy::congratulations:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well ... most likely with "some dogs" and some owners, it can be used safely?? Don't know ... personally I think they are crap and "trick a dog into behaving" properly "when it works." I would not "trust a dog" that was trained by using one, to do as I "expect" in "any" situation.

Rocky and I don't see a lot of well trained dogs on our walks around here but when we do, we take notice! As it happens one of them was a GSD a Tan and Black and he walked calmly beside his owner as "Rocky" did "off leash" behind me. (We take turns on pointe ... kinda our thing.)

So I stop and address the guy from across the street, he stops and we talk, Rocky stops his dog stops. The difference ... "Rocky's head is held high and he calmly waits. The "Halti guy" ... his GSD's head hung down as if he were to embarrassed to look up?? 

I felt embarrassed for the dog myself but his owner seemed to be quite content with his dog's "Demeanor." His dog walked well on leash so ... it's all good. We said have a nice day and moved on. I prefer my dogs ... "not beat down demeanor" over his dogs demeanor ... thank you very much. 

I'd be curious as to how many MWD, LE or PPD owners are eager to put there lives in the hands of a "Halti Trained" dog??? My "life" does not depend on my dogs ... but I "expect" the same level of obedience. But as I am want to say ... I am not a "Pro." But ... this "guy" is. And my thanks to whoever posted it first.  :

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/02/10/the-head-halter-torture-pain-and-nonsense-explained/

People are of course free to use "whatever works for them and there dog" my advice would be if one wants to go the "gimmick" route ... start with a puppy! But ... put that crap on a dog with "serious freaking issues" and ... good luck with that! 

I prefer "proper tools" that work with "all dogs" myself, others of course are free to disagree.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> MAWL I retired my prong recently and switched to a martingale.Yay!I went with the prong initially because I just wasn't able to communicate with Samson effectively with a regular collar.I blame arthritis and lack of strength in my hands as I age.A light touch is all that's needed with the prong.And now a light touch with the martingale works exactly the same.


No disrespect intended "dogma" but your undercutting "your" ability to train a dog. 

The function of a "Martingale" is simply to keep "Slippery Headed Dogs" from backing out of the collar.

Hand on to an "unskilled" owner and they still won't be able to walk there dog. That is based on input in my Slip Lead Thread. And yes of course ... Great Job!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> No disrespect intended "dogma" but your undercutting "your" ability to train a dog.
> 
> The function of a "Martingale" is simply to keep "Slippery Headed Dogs" from backing out of the collar.
> 
> Hand on to an "unskilled" owner and they still won't be able to walk there dog. That is based on input in my Slip Lead Thread. And yes of course ... Great Job!


Thanks Chip!A martingale is also like a prong turned inside out.It feels the same to him and me and we can still "talk" to each other.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Thanks Chip!A martingale is also like a prong turned inside out.It feels the same to him and me and we can still "talk" to each other.


LOL ... I translate that to "Snug and High" on the dog's neck ... that's a big part of the secret to success, in properly walking a dog. 

Good job.


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