# Protection for the Wifey!



## XinnKoda

Hello, I'm new here to this website but I figured this was the best sub-category to post this question. I'm a firefighter here in Utah which means I'm gone a good chunk of the week. I work 24 hour shifts which leaves my wife alone at the house. We live in a good neighborhood but the city we live in has a couple bad parts and there's some places we shop that are a little more "shady" than what I'm comfortable with. My wife is a very skinny beautiful woman. Of course, I get very nervous when she has to go shopping while I'm at work. I recently purchased a GSD (male) and I was curious about him becoming a protection dog. I have him signed up for obedience training and the Canine Good Citizenship program and I'm confident he will pass it with ease. He's very well tempered dog and he behaves at all times. My ultimate goal is to be able to have my wife go shopping with my dog without any hassles from the store. Most stores in the area don't care if you have a dog as long as he's a "Service Dog". I don't feel like I need to send him through a full protection dog training class for her to be safe. I figure as long as Sam (my dog) is there, no one will ever want to mess with my wife. So here's my question, is there a way to certify my dog as a service dog without sending him through the full protection training? I haven't even been able to find any protection classes in my area. What are you suggestions? Someone told me you can make your dog your "Emotional Support" animal which is a service dog. In all fairness, he is an emotional support dog because my wife feels much safer with him around. So, what are your suggestions? I know protection training would be the best option but my wife and I are on a limited budget and I heard protection training is very expensive.

Thanks in advance,
George


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## Draugr

If your wife has no medical need for a service dog, it's both illegal _and_ immoral to pass a dog off as one for her. Doing this makes things VERY difficult for people who actually need service dogs in order to live life normally.

It also takes more than your dog "making you feel better" to be an ESA. If that were the case _everyone's_ dog would be an ESA.

Your dog is going to be naturally protective of you and the house. Intruders generally are going to avoid homes with large dogs or where a lot of noise gets made (barking).

Have her carry a taser, or pepper spray, instead. Maybe get her a conceal-carry license and a small gun if that is legal to do in Utah. I know that varies by state. Here you can do that, you can even open carry.


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## Emoore

No. 

A service dog has to fulfill a legitimate need for someone who has a true disability. Whoever told you about "emotional support" dogs was full of it. 

People who have legitimate disabilities and who need a service dog just to carry out daily functions are very protective of the right to have their service dogs, and someone who doesn't have a disability but who tries to pass their pet off as a "service dog" is viewed about the same way as an able-bodied individual who swipes Grandma's handicapped parking tag so he doesn't have to park too far from the mall entrance. 

In addition, even a fully trained Personal Protection Dog is NOT a legitimate service dog. PPDs are not permitted in restaurants and grocery stores like service dogs are. My advice to your wife (speaking as a petite female myself) would be to learn situational awarenes, learn self defense, and get a CCW.


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## clearcreekranch

I am be wrong, but I don't think protection dogs qualify as "service" dogs. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge will chime in.


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## Emoore

clearcreekranch said:


> I am be wrong, but I don't think protection dogs qualify as "service" dogs. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge will chime in.


They do not.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Can your wife get a concealed carry permit and carry a gun in Utah?


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## Jelpy

Firstly, Welcome to the forum. 
As long as local businesses aren't too picky about letting dogs in, and yours is well behaved, I should imagine you won't need to get him certified as a service animal. 

Also, be warned that German Shepherds may, as a whole be protective, but there are variations in the breed. If My Allie was choosing to be emotionally supportive of something, you can safely bet it'd be the couch.


jelpy


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## Konotashi

How about you have your wife take some personal protection classes? Maybe some gun classes, that way she can protect herself.


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## Castlemaid

Hi George, 

I have a few suggestions:

Send your wife to self-defense classes so as a responsible grown-up adult, she can look after herself. If you see her as helpless and a victim, how can she see herself any differently. 

A protection dog is not the same thing as a service dog. A service dog is used to assist people with medical issues and are specifically trained for certain tasks to assist the person who needs them. Personal Protection dogs do not have the same right of access as Personal Service Dogs. Passing a non-service dog off as one in order to be allowed to access public places that are normally off-limits to dogs is against the law, and as such, people who do this are commiting fraud.

You can't just pick up a dog and make it into a personal protection dog. It has to be the right dog, with the right balance of drives, with the right temperament, from a breeder who knows what to breed for when it comes to PPDs. You may get lucky and a random dog from a shelter or a random breeder may pan out, but the probablity of that is pretty low. 

Training a dog for Personal protection takes years and full involvement from the handler, and require on-going maintenance training. Best to have the owner/handler do the training so that they have the control over the dogs at all times. Is your wife going to be the one taking the dog to training? 

Sounds like you are starting out on the right foot with a well balance dog along with the obedience classes. Having a PPD is a HUGE investment in time and energy, and a HUGE liability in case this dog, thay you got to BITE people, does in fact accidently bite the wrong person. For 99% of the people out there, having a large, well behaved dog at one's side is a superb deterent and about all the protection most people will need,without the added liability.


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## msvette2u

Agreed with all who said get your wife some self-defense classes.
I'm 5'4" and have taken TKD, and along with that, self-defense (taught alongside TKD and using many TKD methods).
I'm not looking forward to being attacked in the least but I am confident I would at least fight to the death (if the attacker had my death in mind) or survive by brutalizing the attacker with my elbows, knees and hands!

I also have a CCW permit and carry my gun daily. I will not be a victim, and although we have a GSD I don't tote him around to make myself feel safer 
Guns fit much better into purses...!


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## Lilie

msvette2u said:


> Guns fit much better into purses...!


....and they don't tend to chase cats!!!!


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## ladylaw203

You have been given good advice. 
Get her self defense classes and a Concealed handgun carry license. 
The dog is NOT a service animal and it is illegal and just plain wrong to attempt to pass it off as one. 
personal protection training is not something that I reccomend to folks. Most civilians are not going to keep up the maintenance training with regard to control and the release commands


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## XinnKoda

Thanks for all the responses! You have given me some good ideas. One question though. I read somewhere about dogs and break ins. In the article I read, this "dog expert" said that the majority of dogs will not actually defend their owners in the event that their owner is being attacked. The dog expert explained that while most dogs will growl at attackers, they won't actually bite them because the dog is too confused and it goes against their training of not biting guests. Is this true? This was one of the reasons I wanted to send Sam through some sort of protection training. On top of all of this, what other training do you suggest? 

-Thanks in advance,
George


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## JakodaCD OA

I think it will depend on the dog as to whether they will attack an intruder or not.

Best bet is for your wife to do as Renee suggests (and others), self defense class and gun permit..

If she takes sam with her to stores and such, and leaves him in the car,,please please make sure it's locked up tight, you don't want a stolen dog 

Most times just the look and bark of a gsd is a good deterrent, but in the end if someone wants to harm you (general you),,you've got to rely on yourself and most likely protect the dog as well..

I'd go thru your obedience classes first, and see what else may interest you and the dog..the possibilities are ENDLESS if you just want to "do" something with the dog,,agility, herding, tracking, rally, all kinds of fun things


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## msvette2u

Lilie said:


> ....and they don't tend to chase cats!!!!


...and in the event of a very bad cat, they could even protect against that cat :laugh:


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## Germanshepherdlova

I agree that your wife should take a self-defense course but know this, most people will not challenge a GSD. Just today, I was out walking my dogs and these two men rode past on their bikes, one of them pointed at my dog as he passed by and called out-now _that_ is protection. I think because they are known as the police dog, most people assume that they would defend their owner.


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## Lilie

XinnKoda said:


> One question though. I read somewhere about dogs and break ins. In the article I read, this "dog expert" said that the majority of dogs will not actually defend their owners in the event that their owner is being attacked. The dog expert explained that while most dogs will growl at attackers, they won't actually bite them because the dog is too confused and it goes against their training of not biting guests.
> 
> -Thanks in advance,
> George


There are a lot of opinions on this subject. But one thing can be agreed on, a well breed, confident, socialized, trained dog is what you really need within your home. 

I will tell you this. As a young teen ager, I had a GSD that was a family pet. She was well socialized. Never met a stranger. Well mannered. Never spent a day in professional training, but was well trained at home. There are four girls in my family, so you can imagine the traffic we had in our house. She rarely barked. 

I was attacked at a neighborhood pool, was being held underwater while he attempted to remove my suit - she jumped in and bit the attacker in the face, who then freed me and I was able to get away. 

My point is that the foundation you provide your dog is so important as to what type of dog you will have when it's an adult. OB training is a great start.


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## Emoore

XinnKoda said:


> Thanks for all the responses! You have given me some good ideas. One question though. I read somewhere about dogs and break ins. In the article I read, this "dog expert" said that the majority of dogs will not actually defend their owners in the event that their owner is being attacked.


A barking German Shepherd is a *fabulous* deterrent to a bad guy. 99% of bad guys will hear and see your big scary barking dog and choose to target another, easier house. The other 1% will break in with a plan to deal with that big, scary barking dog, and that plan will most likely involve a bullet in his head. He won't get a chance to bite. 

Has your wife considered a nice pistol-grip pump-action 12-gauge with a touch-sensitive tactical flashlight in the foregrip?


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## Anja1Blue

Emoore said:


> A barking German Shepherd is a *fabulous* deterrent to a bad guy. 99% of bad guys will hear and see your big scary barking dog and choose to target another, easier house. The other 1% will break in with a plan to deal with that big, scary barking dog, and that plan will most likely involve a bullet in his head. He won't get a chance to bite.
> 
> Has your wife considered a nice pistol-grip pump-action 12-gauge with a touch-sensitive tactical flashlight in the foregrip?


:laugh: Now THAT'S protection (and I want one!!!!)
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## XinnKoda

My wife actually has a Mossberg 500 tactical pump pistol grip with a Fenix 20 strobe light and a side saddle. We also have a Rock River AR-15 R4 tactical entry which scares most people just by seeing it in the gun case. She used to work at a gun store and between the two of us we have about 20 guns. Her main carry is a Ruger LCP because of its' light weight build. Guns are great tools, but it's nice to have a backup option.


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## DanielleOttoMom

Dang girl!! Look at that gun. If you came to the door with two barking GSD's and a gun like that I would have a heart attack!! You go girl! I have been want to get my CHL for months now. Now I'm looking for classes. Lol.


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## JakodaCD OA

emoore you crack me up LOL,,I'll bet ya got a big purse for that sucker)


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## JakodaCD OA

I kinda don't consider my dog my back up option,,I figure I am HER back up option and hope I never find myself in a situation to use any option..


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## DFrost

XinnKoda said:


> My wife actually has a Mossberg 500 tactical pump pistol grip with a Fenix 20 strobe light and a side saddle. We also have a Rock River AR-15 R4 tactical entry which scares most people just by seeing it in the gun case. She used to work at a gun store and between the two of us we have about 20 guns. Her main carry is a Ruger LCP because of its' light weight build. Guns are great tools, but it's nice to have a backup option.


and your worried about what kind of dog to buy for personal protection? I would suggest a something that barks at noise outside. Or train a small dog to bark at breaking glass, commotion at the door etc. With that armory, all you need is a few seconds warning.


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## ILGHAUS

As more then just a couple have said (and I'm so happy to see that so many of our members here are becoming so well informed )



> ... certify my dog as a service dog ... Someone told me you can make your dog your "Emotional Support" animal which is a service dog. ...


In order to be an Assistance or Service Dog (SD):
1) The handler must be *legally* disabled per the ADA/Dept. of Justice regulations (Not just medically disabled).
2) The dog must be trained to mitagate the handler's legal disabilities.

An Emotional Support Dog (ESA/ESD) *is not* a Service Dog.
An Emotional Support Dog *can not* go anywhere that any other pet dog is allowed except: 
only benefits: is having the dog allowed to live in what is normallly a non-pet housing unit (Must meet various regulations, including documentation of owner's disability and treating doctor prescribes dog as part of treatment, so not always an absolute) and allowed to travel in the cabin of most domestic flights with owner/handler.

With either a SD or an ESD certain documentation must be included in the individuals permanent medical files which can be called into court during dispute cases. These particular medical records can be shared with "the other side" as part of the court case.


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## RocketDog

If your wife is that experienced with guns, how unsafe can she feel?! I mean, saying she's a "skinny beautiful woman" is kind of ridiculous. Ask any violent crime expert and those crimes aren't committed solely against only "skinny, beautiful" people. Most of those crimes are as far from sexually motivated as you can get. 

Getting a GSD (or any "tough" breed for that matter) for protection without being willing to do the entire gammut of finding a breeder who can help you, selecting and shaping a pup, and going through the training is why you read about attacks by dogs against innocent people or kids. 

Any well-socialized dog, who is trained and taken places and met lots and lots of people will know what normal human behavior is--there by recognizing "abnormal" behavior such as an attack.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

My husband was a trucker for the past 10years and Daisy(GSD)Lucky(GSD) as well as Dodger(PIT/Lab) were deterrents to people trying anything around our house . I have to agree a self defense course for your wife and i would add a good alarm system . I personally don't like guns but she needs to know what she is doing with it and that includes practice and classes beyond the classes for CCW. At least thats what alocalpolice officer advised me.I have found that people scoping our house tend to move along quickly due to our dogs. The store part ,does the concealed carry cover that? Ill leave that question to the folks like Lady Law.My dogs did give me a feeling of security but that was more about not being alone.Do you guys have OnStar or the Ford system that is like it. It is a quick way to get emergency services when in the car..On Star is now selling to other cars then GM. Hope you guys never need any of these elements.


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## pets4life

i am not that keen on so called |self defense the attacker is just going to manipulate scare the person take your gun and beat you with it 


dont undestimate people 


mace knives all that crap can be easily taken away from someone if you are alone at night your gun is not going to turn alive on its own and go watch out the window for u while ur dead asleep nor is it going to make sure no one breaks in on its own you cant compare the 2 there is a reason why dogs have been used as protection for hundreds of years. Also depends on your country some places like mine its not even legal to keep them loaded.

But like some people said it takes certain gsds special kind of gsd not just ur avg gsd i would feel safe with some gsds but some gsds most gsds i do not feel safe with thats why pedigrees lines and breeders are so important they weed out the weak keep in the civil strong nerves stability etc..


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## Good_Karma

RocketDog said:


> If your wife is that experienced with guns, how unsafe can she feel?! *I mean, saying she's a "skinny beautiful woman" is kind of ridiculous. Ask any violent crime expert and those crimes aren't committed solely against only "skinny, beautiful" people. Most of those crimes are as far from sexually motivated as you can get. *


Excellent point.


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## Jack's Dad

XinnKoda said:


> My wife actually has a Mossberg 500 tactical pump pistol grip with a Fenix 20 strobe light and a side saddle. We also have a Rock River AR-15 R4 tactical entry which scares most people just by seeing it in the gun case. She used to work at a gun store and between the two of us we have about 20 guns. Her main carry is a Ruger LCP because of its' light weight build. Guns are great tools, but it's nice to have a backup option.


I don't know how you feel safe, you don't have an RPG launcher.

emoore is that you in the pic. because that's my kind of gal. Other than my wife of course.


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## msvette2u

Huh?
In self defense, taught properly, the very first "tactic" is yelling, screaming and getting _away_ quickly from the attacker. However, if you were caught off guard, or they simply ran you down (ran quicker than you and caught you) you're better off knowing some tactics like digging your thumb into the corner of their eye socket and trying to pop it out of it's socket, or simply grabbing a handful of nut and twisting, you're better off knowing these things and having had practiced them (within reason LOL) numerous times beforehand then not doing anything except scream as they are preparing to choke the life out of you or worse.




pets4life said:


> i am not that keen on so called |self defense the attacker is just going to manipulate scare the person take your gun and beat you with it
> 
> 
> dont undestimate people
> 
> 
> mace knives all that crap can be easily taken away from someone if you are alone at night your gun is not going to turn alive on its own and go watch out the window for u while ur dead asleep nor is it going to make sure no one breaks in on its own you cant compare the 2 there is a reason why dogs have been used as protection for hundreds of years. Also depends on your country some places like mine its not even legal to keep them loaded.
> 
> But like some people said it takes certain gsds special kind of gsd not just ur avg gsd i would feel safe with some gsds but some gsds most gsds i do not feel safe with thats why pedigrees lines and breeders are so important they weed out the weak keep in the civil strong nerves stability etc..


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## ILGHAUS

In my previous post I said



> An Emotional Support Dog *can not* go anywhere that any other pet dog is allowed except:


It should have said "An Emotional Support Dog *can not* go anywhere that any other pet dog is not allowed except: "

Sorry


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## pets4life

Lilie said:


> There are a lot of opinions on this subject. But one thing can be agreed on, a well breed, confident, socialized, trained dog is what you really need within your home.
> 
> I will tell you this. As a young teen ager, I had a GSD that was a family pet. She was well socialized. Never met a stranger. Well mannered. Never spent a day in professional training, but was well trained at home. There are four girls in my family, so you can imagine the traffic we had in our house. She rarely barked.
> 
> I was attacked at a neighborhood pool, was being held underwater while he attempted to remove my suit - she jumped in and bit the attacker in the face, who then freed me and I was able to get away.
> 
> My point is that the foundation you provide your dog is so important as to what type of dog you will have when it's an adult. OB training is a great start.



wow that is disturbing who was the man? did he get caught? least u are ok im shocked the dog was able to get his face in the water

someone broke into a house a few houses down and their gsd bit him in the face also and left a trail of blood last year the dog was asleep and the robber was very very quiet when the dog realized he was almost in the house it was to late for a barking reaction so he just bit the robber


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## Emoore

JakodaCD OA said:


> emoore you crack me up LOL,,I'll bet ya got a big purse for that sucker)


Lol that's the home defense gun, I carry a .40cal pistol when I leave the house. Although in TX it _is_ still legal to have a shotgun or rifle in your truck rack. 



Jack's Dad said:


> emoore is that you in the pic. because that's my kind of gal. Other than my wife of course.


Yup that's me.


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## Emoore

pets4life said:


> i am not that keen on so called |self defense the attacker is just going to manipulate scare the person take your gun and beat you with it


Yeah, you're right. It's much better to not learn things like situational awareness and self defense. Just cower behind the dog. Put your GSD in your purse and take it to the supermarket with you and when somebody follows you to your car, just whip the dog out and throw it at him. 





pets4life said:


> mace knives all that crap can be easily taken away from someone if you are alone at night your gun is not going to turn alive on its own and go watch out the window for u while ur dead asleep nor is it going to make sure no one breaks in on its own


I thought we were all in agreement that dogs are great deterrents and alarms?


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## chelle

RocketDog said:


> If your wife is that experienced with guns, how unsafe can she feel?! I mean, saying she's a "skinny beautiful woman" is kind of ridiculous..


Um yeah.!

How about you just move across town where it is safer?

I have a 17 lb Shiba Inu and 25 lb American Eskimo who wouldn't attack a thing, but to hear them carry on, a thief would bypass my house just for the racket they carry on with when someone comes close to the house. (House is set quite far back from the road, no one comes here unless they intend to come here.)

Agree with earlier post that to try to bypass the system with the Service Dog stuff is just plain wrong.  So your wife can't even go into a place of business alone? I can sort of understand the whole thing of you being gone from home overnights, but she can't even shop alone??  Whose paranoid here -- her or you?


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## KZoppa

I cant tell you anything you havent already been told but i will share a story with you. 

Zena is a GSD my husband and I adopted from the humane society back home. My husband got stationed out in NC for our first duty station after he joined the navy. We were living out in town. 

One night, my husband had to stay at the training side of the base so it was just me, the dogs, and my then 9 month old daughter. The house was set up pretty poorly in terms of outside lighting. There was an extension put on the house but when the owners did it, they didnt think a back porch light was necessary and they also didnt think a back hall light was necessary. The only hall light access i had for the back hallway was to run past the scary stairs, past the scary window where you couldnt see anything outside and to the laundry room/guest bathroom to turn on the hall light. 

One night, after my daughter was snug in her crib sound asleep, our male dog started growling towards the kitchen. Didnt think much of it because he's our reactive guy. If he THINKS he hears something, he'll growl and bark and just be really annoying. 9 times out of 10 he's imaging things. Well a minute or two later, Zena started in. I reached for my baseball bat. The back hallway was dark as was the kitchen. I started to get off the couch and walk towards the kitchen towards the back hallway at the backdoor. Riley was busy hiding on the other side of the couch still growling. 

Zena stopped me from going any further. She put herself between me and the kitchen. I could hear someone jiggling the back doorknob. There was a loud crash as the backdoor was thrown open, the back window rattled but didnt shatter. Riley is still growling from the safe side of the couch while Zena is still between me and the back door. I couldnt see anything until a shadow started toward me. They never even realized Zena was there until she was practically on top of them barking and growling. She got a hold of the guy enough to draw some blood but he and his buddy or buddies, never really knew how many there were, took off. 

Zena had no prior training when i adopted her. She knew instinctively these guys werent right and she let them know they werent welcome. Zena is the dog who when i adopted her at 4 years old, proved she was a fabulous dog. She'll let kids do whatever they want to her as she lays there soaking up the attention or ear pulling or tail pulling. But she also knows who is right and who is wrong.

If you view your wife as small and helpless, you need to change that view point. Self defense classes, self defense spray.... There is a lot she can do to take care of herself. You'd be amazed at how fierce a woman can be when she needs to be. A dog will alert to anything outside but taking a dog shopping when its not necessary just to make YOU feel better about her going out.... sorry man but not cool. Keep Sam for home. I'm sure your wife is capable of handling herself if necessary. Especially if you have that much weaponry at home and she knows how to use it!


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## Jessiewessie99

Let's put it this way, don't **** with a women if she has a gun.


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## RocketDog

Kzoppa, what a great story. Besides the fact you must've been scared sh*tless, I mean!

And for the record to the OP: My DH is a firefighter, has been the entire 16 years of our marriage. He works 24 on 48 off. Plus, trades, doubles, callbacks, etc. We have 3 kids. I also own a Smith & Wesson .45 that I am pretty capable with. I love having a dog, mostly for other reasons but I do like having that extra set of ears that hear way better than mine. I'm 5'5 and 120lbs, and not exactly a mud fence. When people ask my DH if he worries when I go out by myself with my friends, drive to Montana by myself for a weekend with friends, go hiking, etc...his response? "HA. My wife can take care of herself. She doesn't need me." 

Maybe you should treat your wife like a capable partner instead of a trophy. Please forgive me if you don't, but it certainly came across that way.


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## msvette2u

Emoore said:


> Yeah, you're right. It's much better to not learn things like situational awareness and self defense.


Oh yeah, that's a huge part of Self defense class. Always be aware of your surroundings. Walk confidently and be prepared for anything. 
In Police training (I'm an ACO) we were trained to never lower our hands below our waist and when I'm on higher alert due to my surroundings I still get my arms up above my waist...


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## BR870

Emoore said:


> Yeah, you're right. It's much better to not learn things like situational awareness and self defense. Just cower behind the dog. Put your GSD in your purse and take it to the supermarket with you and when somebody follows you to your car, just whip the dog out and throw it at him.


Heck ya!

:thumbup:


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## KZoppa

RocketDog said:


> Kzoppa, what a great story. Besides the fact you must've been scared sh*tless, I mean!
> 
> And for the record to the OP: My DH is a firefighter, has been the entire 16 years of our marriage. He works 24 on 48 off. Plus, trades, doubles, callbacks, etc. We have 3 kids. I also own a Smith & Wesson .45 that I am pretty capable with. I love having a dog, mostly for other reasons but I do like having that extra set of ears that hear way better than mine. I'm 5'5 and 120lbs, and not exactly a mud fence. When people ask my DH if he worries when I go out by myself with my friends, drive to Montana by myself for a weekend with friends, go hiking, etc...his response? "HA. My wife can take care of herself. She doesn't need me."
> 
> Maybe you should treat your wife like a capable partner instead of a trophy. Please forgive me if you don't, but it certainly came across that way.


 
oh yeah i was terrified. My daughter sound asleep in her room and me with a baseball bat and one chicken dog and one dog who honestly had proven before she would not hesitate to bite if necessary (thank God for her!!!!). Managed to call the cops who asked me to put Zena up. I told them no way, not happening. They respected my decision after the learned i was home along with my baby girl. they just kept their distance from her and i kept her under control. 

OP, i do have to tell you, I've had a couple shepherds in my house who would have jumped through a window to get away from someone or something and left me to be attacked. Had one who literally would run and hide whenever someone knocked on the door or rang the doorbell. Just please keep in mind, not all dogs, or in this case, GSDs, will take on someone who tries to get into your house. They're excellent for visual and sound deterrants but not all of them will protect like Zena did. 

Example, my two big dogs will keep someone from breaking in just by being here and only one barking (my female doesnt bark, she just wags her tail) but my immediate neighbors are more likely to have a break in because they have yip yap ankle biters who make great footballs and dont pose much of a threat, whereas the mere presence of my big teddy bears.... would you want to question whether the dog those teeth belong to is going to rip you a new one? And anyone truly intent on harm is NOT going to let a dog stop them. Something to keep in mind. Self defense. I was ready to beat whoever invaded my home to a bloody pulp that night.


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## middleofnowhere

What amazes me about this thread is how worried people are. Like some of you, I am not sure what century the OP is out of with his attitude toward women. His wife must recognize this attitude and since she evidently married him, buys into it. They both must think she is dependent on his physical protection. This attitude probably contributes to the fact that men are much more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women.

I don't go for guns either. I think one is better off knowing how to use their body as protection because after all another weapon can be taken away from you. 

I think my dogs have always been visual deterents but so has my attitude when I am out with them. I can get way uglier than the dogs.


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## Samba

I was wondering why I don't have a lot of guns or concern myself if the dogs here might defend...it finally dawned on me! Fat and ugly!  The best protection in the book! It is going to be tough to quickly stuff me in a car!


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## RocketDog

^lmao, Samba!


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## Emoore

msvette2u said:


> Oh yeah, that's a huge part of Self defense class. Always be aware of your surroundings. Walk confidently and be prepared for anything.
> In Police training (I'm an ACO) we were trained to never lower our hands below our waist and when I'm on higher alert due to my surroundings I still get my arms up above my waist...


And for God's sake, keep your hands out of your pockets! Shoulders back, head on a swivel, look people in the eye. Practice taking in as much about a person as you can in one swift glance. What are they looking at? Where are their hands? Are they getting too close to your "bubble"? PUT THE IPHONE DOWN!


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## msvette2u

Samba said:


> I was wondering why I don't have a lot of guns or concern myself if the dogs here might defend...it finally dawned on me! Fat and ugly!  The best protection in the book! It is going to be tough to quickly stuff me in a car!


:rofl:
Thanks for that laugh before I head off to bed!!!


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## KZoppa

Emoore said:


> And for God's sake, keep your hands out of your pockets! Head on a swivel, look people in the eye. Practice taking in as much about a person as you can in one swift glance. What are they looking at? Where are their hands? Are they getting too close to your "bubble"?


 
carry your keys in your hand! I usually carry mine like brass knuckles lol. Ready to key someone up real good! 

Common sense can go a loooooong way in protecting oneself!!!

I also have a defense spray called saber that i carry with me when i go out at night. I do most of my grocery shopping and errands on payday at 1am because i can get a lot done without the kids and i can move a lot faster when i dont have to play nice to someone who feels the need to take up the entire store isle just to talk on their phone!


----------



## Emoore

The Female of the Species-- Rudyard Kipling

When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride, 
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside. 
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail. 
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man, 
He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can. 
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail. 
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws, 
They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws. 
'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale. 
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male



.....read the whole poem here: The Female of the Species - Kipling


----------



## Chicagocanine

Since we're on the subject-- I'm just curious what people recommend if people cannot physically do tae kwon do or whatever, and live in an area where you can't carry guns/tasers?


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Oh yeah, that's a huge part of Self defense class. Always be aware of your surroundings. Walk confidently and be prepared for anything.
> In Police training (I'm an ACO) we were *trained to never lower our hands below our waist and* when I'm on higher alert due to my surroundings I still get my arms up above my waist...


 
Must walk pretty funny! Heh! Heh!


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## KZoppa

Chicagocanine said:


> Since we're on the subject-- I'm just curious what people recommend if people cannot physically do tae kwon do or whatever, and live in an area where you can't carry guns/tasers?


 
a self defense spray. as i said earlier, carry your keys in your hand, preferably so some are sticking out between your fingers. Scream like crazy and use that survival instinct. Fight like crazy whether you know actual "moves" or not and always be aware of your surroundings. Lock your car doors when you're driving during the day AND during the night. Try to never park in a dark area in a parking lot or on a street. Avoid alley's. If possible have a friend with you. If something doesnt feel right, example walking to your car at night from a store, turn around and get security to walk out with you or call the police. Listen to your "gut". We have instincts for a reason but too many people choose to ignore them. Dont ignore them.


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## codmaster

Most "self defense" courses that I have seen are mostly useless because they don't teach attitude. most people today, esp. adults, have never been in or even close to a "street fight" with no rules except "SURVIVE". have never been attacked by someone seriously intent on hurting them. takes a real attitude adjustment for these folks to be effective in a real self defense situation.

For example i have a 17 yo niece who has been studying Karate for about 4-5 years and really thinks she is very good at it. I worry that if she ever needs to use it in a street situation she will freeze or just be shocked that someone is really trying to hurt her. The SD courses must address this emotional/pscy. attitude and expose students to real fighting.

I.E. in the street, if you knock your assailant down or even if they just slip, you don't run, you take advantage of the situation and wail the heck out of them to stop them right now! At least that is what i was taught (and it works!). Shoot if you need to!

Just a thought about "self defense" for what it is worth!


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## blehmannwa

I live near a high crime area, a drug and prostitution corridor. We have a lot of homeless people and some hooligans from the inner city high school infesting our park. I am rarely nervous. Even when I was walking my doddering old Shepherd crosses, the shifty looking people gave me a wide berth. I'm a well fed, middle aged lady now but I've been in a sketchy places in my past. I'm always aware of my surroundings, I own my space and I carry my cell phone. I dress casually and wear shoes that I can run in.

I know my neighborhood very well. Plus, I talk to everyone. Had a long talk with one of the homeless guys about the kitten he keeps in his hood. Most people are harmless and knowing your neighbors is a good way to keep safe.

I also have no doubt that Felony, the pit-bull, is a huge deterrent to most petty criminals. I know for a fact that she will defend the house. We had a dogsitter that she only knew from class come over when we were out of town. Our GSD crosses hid upstairs but Fel planted herself in our living room and gave him the eye and a low growl. He said he almost wet himself. Fortunately,when he said her pet name, she recognized him and let him in.

Havoc is an imposing dog and I think that he has a protective streak, but I don't let him make decisions about what I should be protected from. Most dogs aren't good decision makers.


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## doggiedad

some GSD's will protect some won't. i think if you want
a PPD you have to do it right from the start to the end.
talk to some people that know PP and they know where
to buy a dog that has potential to be a PPD. there's no short cuts
to having a PPD. i also think rather than having a dog to
protect you i think you should be protecting your dog. ok,
you have this big barking Shep barking at someone on the
property. as they near the door or window Shep is there
barking, growling and holding his ground. the intruder hears
and sees the dog through the window but they continue
to enter. at that point your dog is in trouble. if the
intruder continues to enter the house after hearing and seeing
the dog then they know they can over power the dog. a gun,
a bat, a pipe, a big knife and poison can over power a dog.i think your wife needs a gun. is your wife afraid of being out and about
or are you afraid for her??



XinnKoda said:


> Thanks for all the responses! You have given me some good ideas. One question though. I read somewhere about dogs and break ins. In the article I read, this "dog expert" said that the majority of dogs will not actually defend their owners in the event that their owner is being attacked. The dog expert explained that while most dogs will growl at attackers, they won't actually bite them because the dog is too confused and it goes against their training of not biting guests. Is this true? This was one of the reasons I wanted to send Sam through some sort of protection training. On top of all of this, what other training do you suggest?
> 
> -Thanks in advance,
> George


----------



## doggiedad

are you saying to be safe get a female dog??? :crazy: 



Emoore said:


> The Female of the Species-- Rudyard Kipling
> 
> When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
> He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
> But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
> For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
> 
> When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
> He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can.
> But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail.
> For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
> 
> When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
> They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws.
> 'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale.
> For the female of the species is more deadly than the male
> 
> 
> 
> .....read the whole poem here: The Female of the Species - Kipling


----------



## Daydreamer

I second the concern about teaching "attitude" with the self defense classes. When I was taking karate several years ago few people in the class wanted to spar with me because I didin't "fight fair". One woman even complained to the instuctor that I didn't let her have her turn! I was not in the class to take turns and play nice, I was there to learn how to defend myself better.


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## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> Must walk pretty funny! Heh! Heh!


Have you ever seen a police officer with his hands jammed in his pockets...??

As far as attitude...in academy we were taught all kinds of wonderful things on how to disable an attacker, and when I got home, I asked my husband if I could show him what I'd learned. 
I wound up hurting him and he didn't want to be my demo any longer


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## Lilie

doggiedad said:


> are you saying to be safe get a female dog??? :crazy:


Is there any doubt?


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## msvette2u

Chicagocanine said:


> Since we're on the subject-- I'm just curious what people recommend if people cannot physically do tae kwon do or whatever, and live in an area where you can't carry guns/tasers?


Why wouldn't you be able to do basic self-defense courses?
Where do you live that carrying a handgun is outlawed, Chicago as your name suggests?
I've heard of women carrying a roll of coins in their fists to give an attacker an extra wallop but I'm not sure if that'd work.
Maybe call your local police dept. and ask them for suggestions. Some even offer free self-defense courses.


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## billsharp

Just curious--you keep referring to sending the dog "out" for training. I think most people here recommend that you and wife participate significantly in the basic training so the dog can bond with you and obey you both. The training is most effective if both of you participate. Your wife will need to be very well-bonded with your dog and have a lot of knowledge and experience in how to react and control the dog if she is going to take it out in public, especially if it is protection trained.


----------



## Emoore

codmaster said:


> Most "self defense" courses that I have seen are mostly useless because they don't teach attitude. most people today, esp. adults, have never been in or even close to a "street fight" with no rules except "SURVIVE". have never been attacked by someone seriously intent on hurting them. takes a real attitude adjustment for these folks to be effective in a real self defense situation.


I do agree that the value of a self-defense class is extremely limited if you're not getting hit. I boxed for two years and took two years of Krav Maga, and the most important thing I learned in those disciplines was to get my teeth rattled, my ears ringing, my nose bleeding all over my shirt, and still keep fighting. Not something that comes naturally.

However, I think that all knowledge is power, and even in disciplines like TKD and Karate where you don't get your face busted up, you still learn to be aware and conscious of other peoples' movements, you still learn to punch and kick, and I do think that's better than knowing nothing.


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## ladylaw203

Quality pepper spray is an option


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## lhczth

XinnKoda said:


> My wife actually has a Mossberg 500 tactical pump pistol grip with a Fenix 20 strobe light and a side saddle. We also have a Rock River AR-15 R4 tactical entry which scares most people just by seeing it in the gun case. She used to work at a gun store and between the two of us we have about 20 guns. Her main carry is a Ruger LCP because of its' light weight build. Guns are great tools, but it's nice to have a backup option.


The dog is an alarm system and a good one can be the first line of defense, but we are ultimately responsible for the rest. Self defense training and knowing how to actually use the guns you have in a stressful/life and death situation is much more important.


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## LaRen616

XinnKoda said:


> My wife is a very skinny beautiful woman. Of course, I get very nervous when she has to go shopping while I'm at work.


You think that only thin and pretty women get targeted by creeps and weirdos?

Well thank goodness I dont have to worry about being attacked.


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## martemchik

To the OP, a PPD is very hard work, its not like in the movies where once the dog is trained it is ready to protect you for the rest of its life. I know you said "partially" but sadly this is not something you do half way. Anyone in Schutzhund will tell you the bite work part is never done half way. When I got my dog I thought it would be cool to make him a PPD but realized I don't have nearly the time necessary to accomplish this. Like everyone else said, if a gun is an option and you feel that unsafe then thats your best bet, I personally have never felt the need to carry a handgun and thats probably because I grew up in the Chicago area. If I ever felt that unsafe to go shopping/live in an area, I would move. In most places you would really be surprised at the liability of shooting a gun and injuring/killing another human being. Self-defense has a different definition in every state.

And I currently reside in Wisconsin, where in a few weeks we will be allowed to get conceal and carry permits. However, it is up to businesses to decide if they want to allow guns on their premises and already most are posting that they are not allowed in. All Milwaukee government buildings have banned them, and many restaurants have signs posted about it.

Just a word of caution, if you do decide to partially/fully train your dog in PP, and then sneak him into public places (where dogs are not allowed) as a service dog, if this dog ever bites anyone be it in defense of your wife or not, you will be in for the biggest legal battle of your life, I can pretty much guarantee that one.


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## msvette2u

I can't see how a municipal code could override a state one?
We were taught that municipal (city) codes could be less restrictive but not more restrictive than a state code, and a state code can be less restrictive but not more restrictive than a federal code/law.
So federal overrides state and state overrides municipal, or city. 
What's up with that?

***Ah I just looked it up and it's built into the law. http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/ConcealedCarry/ccw_frequently_asked_questions.pdf
That's very interesting. I wonder what will happen if some whack job carries an automatic weapon into a business that has a sign up saying no concealed weapons, so some patron left their own personal gun in their vehicle and said whack job starts knocking people off?
Kind of vain for businesses to be sticking up signs banning handguns on their premises. 
I'm of the opinion, the more the merrier, as long as people have their permit!!!


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## pets4life

if the dog is naturally civil but very stable with some training its going to be a good protection dog but its just going to cost the OP A lot of money when its bonded to her its not going to "forget" how to bite and fight for her the dog is a good dog he or she will have it in them, they can take it for testing and continue with their own OB training a very stable civil dog is a smart dog its not gonna go off and just bite people unless shes attacked. But again for a dog like this its gonna cost them a lot you unless they take a chance with a puppy. You can go to good breeders and ask for this type of dog gsds are the best breed in the world now for protection i hate to say this but they out beat every other breed rotties dobies when it comes to the real deal if u look at certain bloodlines. This is why everyone comes to gsd's for real personal protection cause if they look at other breeds they are not going to find real good breeders that have good dogs. Gsds have taken over. Their orignal purpose wasnt the same but they have exceeded other breeds in pp i talked to a few trainers and they admit themselves for pp they would tell clients to search for a gsd way way way before searching for a dobie or rottie so a lot of people are probably gonna be comming here with these type of questions. Its just not practical anymore for people to look for any other breed even trainers with 15 plus years experience admit it. There are mals and dutchies but they arent exactly for a novice owners and require much more work. 

I agree though with her shopping during the day and stuff self defense and things is good for her she cant just be so dependant on something all the time thats silly when i said i dont buy into self defense i meant people use it as a all time defense walking into bad areas thinking they are safe cause they got self defense training i just seen things end bad before with overly conf people but i agree the self defense is very good for someone to learn but again its a deterrant and i wouldnt depend on that a good dog is a powerful dangerous animal and the two of them would get out of the situation together. It sounds like this woman needs it since she wants a service dog but should be left at home or walks and she should get all the training she can plus tools. She can just have it all. As long as she understands the work involved with having a high energy strong dog she can easily just change her whole world and stop being her husbands lil victim. lol

Even livestock guardian breeders have clients come looking for protection dogs they send them away saying go find a good gsd


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## msvette2u

Self-defense isn't used as a bullet-proof vest or superhuman powers, it's just another tool for "just in case".
I don't know who wanders around in dangerous areas because they learned some self-defense techniques! 

But you could be anywhere and suddenly need some of the self-defense techniques, even "safe neighborhoods.
We came out of a grocery outlet in The Dalles, OR, and there just one car from ours was what appeared to be some gang members messing around, at least 5-6 guys. They were sitting on the hood of their car and milling about, almost as if in wait for us coming out of the store. 

I was glad I knew my self-defense, but who would suspect I might need it in broad daylight in a tiny "safe" town like The Dalles??

I see it as a "just in case", not a shield for walking deliberately into dangerous areas 

Has anyone knocking females taking self-defense classes actually _been_ through a self-defense course??


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## martemchik

msvette...the smaller the section of government the more restrictive they can be. Compare this to the marijuana laws popping up in different counties all over the US. The federal government can prosecute you for having the marijuana, but the county/state won't. Remember that the court system is divided into county/state/federal and it really depends on where the two people live (that are involved in the case) to where the lawsuit will be filed and what laws/precedents are in affect.

And just saw your edit, it will be interesting, and sadly that's what worries me. There isn't really a culture of conceal carry here. The law says one thing, but precedent hasn't been set yet at what to do if a situtation like that arrises, and precedent trumps written law in the United States so the first time this happens it will go to the state supreme court and they will figure out what to do.


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## msvette2u

That's just not right. If it's a law you can carry a gun legally, concealed or not, no freaking stores ought to have a ban not allowing it. 
That's just not right!


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## Shaina

Just something interesting to add about self defense classes - when I was in highschool we had a class built into our curriculum that taught a lot of the moves and really worked us hard. At the end of the semester we were told we would experience an "attack" simulation, which was a HUGE man that had been working with us throughout the semester and we had to get away from him. Granted her never HIT any of us, but he did grab us, drag us by our legs, pick us up, etc. It was EXHAUSTING and by far one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do (this man was huge.... huge huge huge.) At the end of the "fight", we were told that we actually had to do it AGAIN with another man. Originally there were two men helping, and we were told that we would have to simulate with one of them at random, but that wasn't the case, and none of us had contact to tell the other classmates so we were all taken by shock. I wish I could find the videos of it, man it was hard.


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## Draugr

msvette2u said:


> That's just not right. If it's a law you can carry a gun legally, concealed or not, no freaking stores ought to have a ban not allowing it.
> That's just not right!


I think here, privately owned business CAN ban pretty much anything they like (well, so long as it doesn't violate civil liberties laws, or things like that). But, publicly owned business CANNOT. While I doubt you are going to see a sign on your local Wal-Mart that says "Law-abiding gun owners welcome in our store" I don't think they can prohibit it. That may vary by state, though. Not sure.


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## martemchik

It makes no difference if its publicly owned or not. Its a private (in the sense of its not government which is considered public) company and therefore can do whatever it wants on the premises it leases/owns. These are not the types of decisions that are voted on by the shareholder so it makes no difference. As long as its private property, they can do whatever they want. A store is no different from your home. A corporation is considered a person in the eyes of the law.

Msvette, thanks for that pdf, I'm going to study it after work just to see how restrictive this law is. I'm not considering getting a gun or a permit, I'm just very interested in laws that are hightly debated and the confusion that arises over them. Gun ownership and use is very questionable in the United States, I think most people have no idea in what situations they are allowed to use it without legal liability on themselves.


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## msvette2u

You are right, and people need to study those things before sticking a gun on.

These help, though 

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

Carry Concealed


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## Chicagocanine

msvette2u said:


> Why wouldn't you be able to do basic self-defense courses?
> Where do you live that carrying a handgun is outlawed, Chicago as your name suggests?


I have back issues, but I was really thinking more about my mom... She can barely walk right now (really bad arthritis in her knees and recovering from a broken ankle.) We both live in Chicago.




msvette2u said:


> Self-defense isn't used as a bullet-proof vest or superhuman powers, it's just another tool for "just in case".
> I don't know who wanders around in dangerous areas because they learned some self-defense techniques!


Well, I don't purposefully wander in dangerous areas, but the crime rate here even in the "safe" neighborhoods is not zero.


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## msvette2u

I'm not sure for out and about safety, especially for your mom, but I bet the police department may have suggestions for at home safety, and more for the out-and-about safety as well. 

Things like setting a dog bowl out, some toys, putting up a "beware of dog" sign even if you don't have a pet, for the at-home suggestions...

Oh, and I have back issues as well, including a disc trying to go bad on me, and can do many of the self-defense things still. Don't rule them out. There's even a technique where you slam cupped hands over both their ears, if done correctly, can burst their eardrums. The eye thing can be done as well, by anyone regardless of how strong you are. Most can be performed even if you are being held relatively tightly, if you don't struggle but rather use some of the techniques to disable your attacker. 
On all the movies I ever watch, the woman's wide open to attack the attacker, yet struggles to get away instead of fighting back. That's what I'd focus on, injuring and disabling your attacker, even if being held tightly to them, most the things I learned were things you could do even in that situation.


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## Chicagocanine

msvette2u said:


> Oh, and I have back issues as well, including a disc trying to go bad on me, and can do many of the self-defense things still. Don't rule them out. There's even a technique where you slam cupped hands over both their ears, if done correctly, can burst their eardrums.


Well I was thinking more about an actual self-defense class, that I might not be able to do one due to my back and I know my mom couldn't because she can barely make it to her car some days.


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## ksotto333

I've had my CCW for 3 years now. I haven't carried (yet) but like knowing that I can if I feel the need. The class itself was very educational in regards to be self aware of situations, how to present yourself, in essence how not to need to use a gun but being able to if necessary. I would like all 3 of my daughters to take the class just for all the different information they will receive. Not to be too picky but I would not want to be called Wifey, it seems to go along with the "thin, beautiful" comment.


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## Dainerra

most state gun laws have a section for what businesses need to do if they don't want to allow concealed carry. There is usually a requirement of a certain size sign, displayed in certain places around the premises. Bars and places that serve alcohol are not allowed to allow weapons inside under most carry laws.

And, I agree, I don't think my husband would dare to call me his "wifey" lol


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## kiwilrdg

In Virginia a business must post signs clearly at the entrances that firearms are not allowed. If I see one of those signs I do not go in even if I am not carrying (unless I am going in on the line of duty, then I can go in armed anyway).



> And, I agree, I don't think my husband would dare to call me his "wifey" lol


I think if I called my wife "wifey" that I would be the one who would need OC spray, a defense dog, and firearms. My wife does not like carrying firearms but she has OC spray in her purse.


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## Emoore

Ok, now we're just getting a little to far into these peoples' personal relationship. I personally wouldn't want to be called "wifey," but my husband and I have other fairly embarrassing nicknames for each other. Just because he thinks she's thin, hot, and calls her wifey doesn't mean he doesn't respect her. I'd much rather have that than than have a guy coming on here saying his "ho" was fat and ugly.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Ok, now we're just getting a little to far into these peoples' personal relationship. I personally wouldn't want to be called "wifey," but my husband and I have other fairly embarrassing nicknames for each other. Just because he thinks she's thin, hot, and calls her wifey doesn't mean he doesn't respect her. I'd much rather have that than than have a guy coming on here saying his "ho" was fat and ugly.











Emoore, you sure that's not your hubby on here worrying about you?


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## msvette2u

ksotto333 said:


> I've had my CCW for 3 years now. I haven't carried (yet) but like knowing that I can if I feel the need.


Um...if you "feel the need" it's going to be too late.
Check out this site, dust that gun off and strap it on you.
Cornered Cat

Eight killed in California salon shooting ? USATODAY.com

There was a huge need yesterday, and my feelings on this are, I don't want to be sitting there without my firearm should some madman burst into somewhere I least expected it and start shooting. I want that thing handy so that I maybe, might be able to take him out before he takes too many people out. Or me.

Same here, less than 200 miles from me.
Motive unknown in shooting near Issaquah school - seattlepi.com

In this day and age I think everyone who goes out in public, if they can carry, do it. I'm sick of seeing these shooting rampages and if more citizens were legally armed, maybe there'd be less of this crap going on. 
I didn't use to feel comfortable carrying a weapon when I first got my ccw, and I bought a gun with a lot of safety features. I didn't want a revolver to carry around, it had no real safety on it! I didn't carry my Beretta locked and loaded, that was dangerous!
Then I began to get more experience out shooting, and carrying and I realized, guns just don't go off for no reason. 
I now have my Beretta but my new carry gun is my Ruger LCR. Ruger’s Radical New Lightweight Compact Revolver .38 Special LCR
The only "safety" feature is that you have to pull harder on the trigger than my semi-automatic in it's locked and loaded position.

Anyway...for those of you who feel self-defense is out yet can't carry a weapon, please reconsider. Do what it takes to feel confident and avoid becoming a victim. 
For those who can carry, do it. Don't wait another moment. 

This is an old video but it's motivational.


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## ksotto333

I saw that after I posted and had the same thought..We've been planning on going to a local range for the regular practice sessions, it's been a bit too long and I want to refresh myself first. I also work 3rd shift alone in a building, yet another reason to carry.


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## msvette2u

ksotto333 said:


> I saw that after I posted and had the same thought..We've been planning on going to a local range for the regular practice sessions, it's been a bit too long and I want to refresh myself first. I also work 3rd shift alone in a building, yet another reason to carry.


You may have to search a while to come up with a good carry system. I loathe carrying my gun in my purse, since my purse sometimes doesn't even make it into places with me, and I leave it in the cart at the store if it's quiet in that store. And you may have to change your wardrobe at times to fit the gun...but it's worth it!


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## ksotto333

The laws in Ohio were just recently changed, not that I hang out at bars but anyplace serving liquor including restaurants are now legal to carry in. (no alcohol intake is allowed though) The rate of CCW license holders in Ohio is steadily growing..


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## katieliz

op has left the building. 

btw, skinny and beautiful or fat and ugly ho are both disrespectful...but possibly not equally so.


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## Draugr

As soon as I get my personal protection permit (expired, I'm saving up the money to purchase a lifetime permit), I'll be open carrying my Glock 40 everywhere I go in a hip holster. Loaded, one round chambered. Like msvette said guns do not go off for no reason. If I ever actually need it, chances are it is going to be in a situation where taking the time to work the slide could cost me or someone else their life.

Where I live a personal protection permit is either open carry only, or open and conceal carry. The former is only issued in very specific circumstances, almost all permits are open/conceal carry.

It is uncommon to see people open carry around where I live but not unheard of. More people need to do it, be good 2nd amendment ambassadors.


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## bigD103

just carrying a gun and having a license could be a terrible idea. if you aren't emotionally ready to pull the trigger than your gonna do more damage to yourself than an assailant. coming from the military and doing alot of clandestine things amongst the general population i can tell you that if you're wife or anyone for that matter has never pointed a gun at someone and pulled a trigger, they probably wont be able to. pepper spray or a taser. dont give a gun to someone who isn't emotionally ready to take a life


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## Emoore

bigD103 said:


> if you're wife or anyone for that matter has never pointed a gun at someone and pulled a trigger, they probably wont be able to.


That's funny because if you keep an eye on the news, nearly every week there's a local news story somewhere in the country about a self-defense shooting. The latest was in my neck of the woods when a father heard a noise in the middle of the night and walked into his son's room to find an intruder holding a knife at his son's neck and demanding money. The father put two in the intruder's chest. A few months ago in Oklahoma a man broke into a lady's home by using a lawn chair to break her glass back door. She killed him with a shotgun. This week in Akron a man attempted to abduct a woman in her car-- she couldn't kill him because of the way he was holding her, but she managed to pull her gun and scare him off by shooting into the ground. In Memphis earlier this month, an assailant tried to rob a Papa John's delivery driver at gunpoint. The driver shot and killed the robber. 

Those are 4 off the top of my head. Are they all retired Navy SEALs?


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## chelle

bigD103 said:


> just carrying a gun and having a license could be a terrible idea. if you aren't emotionally ready to pull the trigger than your gonna do more damage to yourself than an assailant. coming from the military and doing alot of clandestine things amongst the general population i can tell you that if you're wife or anyone for that matter has never pointed a gun at someone and pulled a trigger, they probably wont be able to. pepper spray or a taser. dont give a gun to someone who isn't emotionally ready to take a life


I remember many years ago telling my father I was considering getting a gun.

He asked, "Can you shoot to kill?"

I said, "Um, well, I don't know, I'd probably try to shoot their leg or something?"

He said, "If you can't shoot to kill, do NOT get a gun."

It was a highly impressionable conversation. I never got the gun.


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## msvette2u

If someone was threatening my family or myself, yes I could shoot to kill.


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## kiwilrdg

> He asked, "Can you shoot to kill?"


That is a question that does need to be asked but it is also a question that needs proper context.

If you are at the point that you should shoot you are at the point that you are in extreme danger. This means you are not really shooting to kill, you are shooting to live.

If you do decide that you need to shoot you need to be ready to shoot to stop the threat. You need a large target area that will stop the attacker. That means the center of body mass so the shot is likely to be fatal. The question is, if you are in trouble, are you ready to make the decision to shoot? You also need to remember that even if you kill your attacker and it is judged by a court as being justified force, you will still be a victim because you will still have the traumatic memories and second-guessing as to whether the shooting was the only way. Of course, being able to look back on it and wonder is still better than the alternative.

Avoiding trouble should always be the primary self-defense method. Whatever backup you have should not stop you from staying out of trouble if possible.


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## GSDElsa

It is so strange that people will broadcast what guns they own....making yourselves targets much? That's great your guns protect you when you are HOME, but when you're not they can simply go bye bye. 

Anyhoo.

I think it's absurd that people are finding offense to him calling his wife "wifey." Who cares what nick name he has for her? And why is saying your wife is smokin' offensive?


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## LaRen616

I dont have a problem with him calling his wife "wifey" I dont care what he calls her but when he said that he is worried about her because she is skinny and beautiful, he makes it sound like only skinny, beautiful women are targeted.


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## Lilie

My husband has called me his "Ole' lady" since I was 18 years old. I think I'd rather be called 'wifey'. Could be because now I'm old. 

Great point, Kiwilrdg! Worth repeating:

"If you are at the point that you should shoot you are at the point that you are in extreme danger. This means you are not really shooting to kill, you are shooting to live."


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## DFrost

Just a small point that may prove valuable to anyone in such a situation. Police are not trained to "shoot to kill". Police are trained to use deadly force to stop the threat. May sound like nothing more than semantics, but there is a big difference. Your goal to stop the threat.


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## kiwilrdg

As much as the stereotype (defenseless "wifey") has led this topic off course, it is perhaps one of the best self-defense concern threads I have seen anywhere online. Self-defense is not about hurting anyone, it is about not letting your fears stop you from living your own life and this thread has shown a nice balanced view of a real hot-button topic. 



> It is so strange that people will broadcast what guns they own....making yourselves targets much? That's great your guns protect you when you are HOME, but when you're not they can simply go bye bye.


There are a few areas where I will not go without being armed but that is because I may encounter a people with personal business against me (from when I work in the jail). I would not usually carry if I were not working for the Sheriff because I feel more comfortable and happy in my ability to not be a target than my ability to hit a target. 

I worry about people who feel they are safe from anything because they have a gun. They often forget that the other guys might have more guns.

When learning to shoot I strongly recommend learning and practicing weapon's retention. My wife and I are both alive today because I had a retention holster and could hold onto the grip to keep a guy from working my pistol out of the holster in the street.



> Your goal to stop the threat.


Very important point. Even though center of body mass is likely a fatal shot, shooting to stop the threat rather than to kill may be what will keep your case on the self-defense side of the law. Saying the wrong word can change everything.


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## Emoore

kiwilrdg said:


> I worry about people who feel they are safe from anything because they have a gun.


I don't think I'm safe because I own a gun. I own a gun because I know there's no such thing as "safe". I think you'll find most responsible gun owners feel the same way, and that the gun is one final layer in an entire onion of safety and security measures.


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## kiwilrdg

> I think you'll find most responsible gun owners feel the same way,


I agree. It is the few gun owners that are not responsible that I worry about. They make the rest of us look bad.


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## hattifattener

Draugr said:


> . Loaded, one round chambered.


are you people living in war zone?

i like guns,actually doing some gunsmithing (illegal here in LV :blush

but to carry that freakin' thing (9mm sig p220) with me all day every day - no,thanks! it is annoying.


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## kiwilrdg

> but to carry that freakin' thing (9mm sig p220) with me all day every day - no,thanks! it is annoying.


Everyone views danger differently. While in the US we have not had political unrest (despite what the news makes things look like). We do have a fairly high crime rate in a few areas (but most areas have a low crime rate). Since we have not had a lot of danger the amount we have seems like more to us. There are also political reasons that are beyond this board's policy.


I agree, carrying is annoying.


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## msvette2u

There are shootings nearly every day where I live. 
I'd prefer to remain alive than be a target with no weapon on me.


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## mwiacek10

chelle, had a similar conversation with my father. Couldn't tell him for sure, so he bought me a double barrel 12 gage and told me they would see that coming around the corner and turn around running! That was over 20 yrs ago. I still have it in my bedroom closet. Thankfully, never had to pull it out.


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## hattifattener

msvette2u said:


> There are shootings nearly every day where I live.
> I'd prefer to remain alive than be a target with no weapon on me.


shootings almost every day... and i did not see/hear even one in my whole life. i guess i have missed something.
what is the reason of those shootings? gang wars or what? sorry for silly question.:blush:



kiwilrdg said:


> Everyone views danger differently. While in the US we have not had political unrest (despite what the news makes things look like). We do have a fairly high crime rate in a few areas (but most areas have a low crime rate). Since we have not had a lot of danger the amount we have seems like more to us. There are also political reasons that are beyond this board's policy.


thanks for explanation!
in fact i would never even point gun at other person...
i keep them just because i like them.
it is irrational somehow

but what about gun related accidents? are they common? not every person is capable to handle gun (especially semi auto) safely...


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## Emoore

I guess you've kinda got to understand background. I grew up on a cattle ranch in Texas. I still live in a very rural area of Texas. For me, growing up there was absolutely none of the mystique or mystery surrounding guns that a lot of people seem to have. I didn't consider them any more dangerous or out of the ordinary than my horse or a power tool. You ask about gun-related accidents and say that not every person is capable of handling a gun safely. To me that puts guns firmly in the same category as chain saws and ATVs. For the record, in my extended family we have had 3 chain saw accidents, countless horse and cow-related injuries, 2 motorcycle accidents (one fatality), one serious kitchen blender injury, and zero gun accidents. 

To me, coming where I come from and being raised the way I was raised, owning a gun is as much as a no-brainer as owning a blender or stove. Use it correctly and don't be an idiot.


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## hattifattener

i see..
but one guy was clicking revolver while sitting next to me. and there was one round in it.
he forgot it.
and i can tell you that .22lr is nothing more than wasp sting.i was lucky though that bullet did not hit any bone in my arm,just went thru. 
really no big deal.


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## Emoore

hattifattener said:


> i see..
> but one guy was clicking revolver while sitting next to me. and there was one round in it.
> he forgot it.


Well, that kinda goes along with the "use it correctly and don't be an idiot" thing, doesn't it? I know a guy who lost a couple of fingers in a kitchen blender. Use it correctly and don't be an idiot. I know a guy (seems like they're always guys, aren't they?) who has three parallel scars on his thigh from three different occasions where he hit himself with his chainsaw. Use it correctly and don't be an idiot. 

Idly clicking away with a revolver and having the muzzle pointed at someone are two colossal no-nos in gun safety.


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## chelle

mwiacek10 said:


> chelle, had a similar conversation with my father. Couldn't tell him for sure, so he bought me a double barrel 12 gage and told me they would see that coming around the corner and turn around running! That was over 20 yrs ago. I still have it in my bedroom closet. Thankfully, never had to pull it out.


I never got a gun. Not so long after our conversation, I gave birth to my son and all the horror stories about children finding guns and killing themselves or others scared me too much.

I knew, of course, the gun could be locked down tight, but my thinking was, in an emergency, how much good would that do. So never got one.

Now, at 41, I could shoot to kill. If you're in my house up to no good, all rules are off. That ambivilence I had in youth is no more.

Dad is a big gun guy. Skeet shooter. Very, very serious about gun safety. It's something I'm thinking about, especially considering my bf and I are possibly breaking up and my son has moved out and I'll be here alone with the dogs. In that situation, I will have a gun, but I'll get Dad's training and do it legal.

I pray I would never have to use it.


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## msvette2u

Gangs, yes, primarily. 
If you're not involved in one of course you're safer but it doesn't stop them from just randomly doing drive-bys.

I was raised in Alaska and guns were a huge part of our lives there as well, for safety against 4 legged animals, primarily bears. 

Here, we carry them for gang activity and keep them @ home (loaded and ready) for intruders, be it gangs or meth manufacturers who poke around looking for things they can sell.

Yakima County Gangs -

Interesting factoids about the gangs in this area at the link above.
I joke about carrying my gun every day; but when I go to Yakima I carry two


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## hattifattener

Emoore said:


> Well, that kinda goes along with the "use it correctly and don't be an idiot" thing, doesn't it?


sure.

that was PERFECT example of what not to do with gun.

pity it is not recorded,would be good educational video.


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