# Halti / Harness / Prong...??



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

So many choices. Don't know which to try.

The G-Man and I are having a battle of wills concerning who's in charge when he's on-leash. At the moment, as you can imagine, he's winning.

He used to walk beautifully on a leash, then one night as we were walking out the front door for a nice stroll, he saw a rabbit and took off, dragging me all the way down the driveway. From that moment on, it was as if something clicked inside his big, thick head and he realized that he can pull me all over the place, if he chooses to. 

I'm really at a loss as to which tool to go with while we're working this out from the behavioral standpoint. I've been trying to stick with his regular old choker, but it's not working. It doesn't phase him anymore. He just keeps pulling, to the point that I'm afraid he's going to hurt himself.

I'm afraid of a prong, mainly because I don't really know how to use one and I'm afraid of hurting him.

I've heard good things and bad things about the Halti-type, gentle leader things.

I've heard mixed reviews about harnesses, too. Some swear by them/some say that I may as well be outfitting him to pull a sled, so unless I want to end up face-down on the pavement, I better avoid them.

So, in your opinions -- what would you suggest?


----------



## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

do you have a trainer that can show you how to properly use the 
prong?

I don't leave the house with B unless he has prong on and that has been since 1 yr old.


----------



## mychance (Oct 22, 2007)

There are those days when I start to wonder if there is an on-line forum for the bunnies and they are plotting to get us all. They show up at the most inopportune times here too! 

I've used the head collars (Halti), prong collars, halters, plain buckle collars - it really depends on the dog. We do use a prong collar on Ward who likes to pretend that his floppy ears are preventing him from hearing any and all instructions when he feels like it. It is very effective and we only need a small correction to get back his focus. However, you are right in thinking they can be problematic when used wrong. Is there anyone who can show you how to correctly fit and use one? 

I've also used a head collar and had mixed results. For some dogs it can work well, some never respond, and I've seen others become more frustrated by it over time. Again I think it has a lot to do with understanding why and how that type of collar works. You may also have to stick it out through an adjustment period while the dog tries to rub it off on ever possible surface. 

I've also used a harness, but it was on a dog that walked beautifully on a flat buckle collar anyway. I'm sure others will have collar suggestions and maybe even training ideas, but that's been my experience.


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Ditto for me to Bo is a 80 pound 6 month old, and he used to walk nice, now if he see something he wants or is scared then he pulls me very hard.

I just have a regular flat colar, so this is a great question for me.


----------



## cjauch (Jul 2, 2009)

We seem to have an abundance of bunnies this year! I was afraid of the prong as well and had been using a halti or gentle leader. We started working with a trainer who showed us how to properly use the prong, and now it is by far my favorite. He wears it anytime we are working and I prefer it to anything else.


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcdo you have a trainer that can show you how to properly use the prong?
> 
> I don't leave the house with B unless he has prong on and that has been since 1 yr old.


I'll second the prong and a trainer to fit it. Mien Luther was the same way to the day he died, he was not leaving the yard without it. Too strong, too stubborn and he knew he was stronger than I am. 

Morgan is 8 now - it used to break my heart to put a prong on her long lovely neck but she was a wild child until she was 4 and I wouldn't walk her without one becuase she'd pull me in a hedge to chase someone cat or squirrel.

Otto is 14 months, someday he might outgrow the need for a prong collar but I don't see the light at the end of that tunnel!


----------



## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I like the prong, but a front clip harness is a good alternative to try. Not a big fan of the Halti - would much rather use the front clip harness. Same theory but better application in my opinion.


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Don't like the Halti. Some love it.

I've used a prong on Dakota since she was 7-8 months. Pulled me off balance in the winter once darting after a snowflake or something. Only intended to use it in the winter, but, she knows when it is on and will not dart out with it. I've only corrected her once, and that was enough. I use it for walks 70% of the time.

I just saw a new style (to me anyway) that didn't look like a prong collar. I didn't like how it attached. I have the quick release one which is so easy.

http://www.dogsportgear.com/prong_collars.htm

Never used a harness, but I see a lot of dogs wearing them, mostly small dogs though.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mychanceThere are those days when I start to wonder if there is an on-line forum for the bunnies and they are plotting to get us all. They show up at the most inopportune times here too!
> 
> 
> I've also used a head collar and had mixed results. For some dogs it can work well, some never respond, and I've seen others become more frustrated by it over time. Again I think it has a lot to do with understanding why and how that type of collar works. You may also have to stick it out through an adjustment period while the dog tries to rub it off on ever possible surface.


I'll bet that's what it is -- there's a bunny conspiracy going on here.









I can see that happening with the Halti. He's a very easily-frustrated dog and I don't think he'd care for that strap. What worries me the most is that he could start thrashing around, trying to get out of it and really injure his neck. 



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> I like the prong, but a front clip harness is a good alternative to try. Not a big fan of the Halti - would much rather use the front clip harness. Same theory but better application in my opinion.


I had been looking at one of these. I like the _idea_, but didn't know if it would give me enough control. 
http://www.softouchconcepts.com/

I guess there would be no harm in trying it. Anything I'd try would be thoroughly tested in the yard, behind the fence, before we head out in the open, anyway. 

If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for a trainer and a prong. I don't exactly trust the salesperson at PetSmart to show me how to properly use one of those! 

Thanks guys!


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaryWI just saw a new style (to me anyway) that didn't look like a prong collar. I didn't like how it attached. I have the quick release one which is so easy.
> 
> http://www.dogsportgear.com/prong_collars.htm


I've never seen those, either. I do like the cover, though, so that it looks like a regular flat collar. I can just see the looks I'd get around here in yuppieville, walking Gunner around the neighborhood with a prong collar. LOL. They'd either think he was a trained killer or I was a horrible, abusive dog owner.


----------



## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I have one of those prongs and covers for each of my dogs. They have been very durable and work well not only through regular walks, but all types of training including protection when the collar is under some serious strain. I also have a neighbor that did the unthinkable... decided to get two working line littermate puppies for pets! Luckily very early on I made sure they understood the commitment they made by taking on this arduous task! They have worked very hard with those two, and they are doing quite well at 7 months old with the harness you show there.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD I also have a neighbor that did the unthinkable... decided to get two working line littermate puppies for pets! Luckily very early on I made sure they understood the commitment they made by taking on this arduous task! They have worked very hard with those two, and they are doing quite well at 7 months old with the harness you show there.


Yikes! I'm tired just _thinking_ about that. 
That's good to know about the harness. I'll have to check out the fitting/measuring instructions and go ahead and order one. Wish me luck!


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've used them but I am not a fan of prong collars, and definitely not if you're not sure how to use one. 

I would recommend a headcollar (such as Halti or Gentle Leader) or a front attaching harness (such as Sense-ation Harness) and lots of training so you can switch back to a regular collar eventually.

The main difference between the two is that the front-attach harnesses do not provide much control, they just prevent pulling forward. The headcollars allow you to control the dog's movement much more as you are controlling the head. The front-attach harnesses are usually a lot more readily accepted whereas with the headcollars you need to take some time to acclimate the dog to them before you use them, which can sometimes take quite a while if the dog doesn't like the feeling of something on their face.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Basu was a terrible puller--I thought I was going to need shoulder surgery. I tried the prong and it made little difference (worked great for Chama) and then tried the haltie and he just figured out how to set his head and it gouged his face. 

At about that time the Sense-ation harness came out and that really did the trick for Basu. Since then I've used that with great success.


----------



## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

I use a front clip harness on Nash. I tried a prong at first, as that is what I normally use for a puller, but he would turn and bite the leash. I didn't want that to progress into handler aggression so we tried a head harness next. He flipped out completely, tried it for a few days, feeding him treats with it on, taking it off, but he scratched his face up pretty good trying to get it off. 

So then we tried the harness. It works wonderfully . . . if I clip the leash to both the harness and a martingale collar that is on somewhat loose. Without clipping it to the martingale collar the front of the harness falls down low (and it is fitted correctly) and the leash gets in his legs. It just works better clipped to the collar and harness. It also makes it so if he manages to get out of the harness he is still attached to the leash. He hasn't yet, but just incase. It also seems to give more control having it connect to both the harness and the martingale collar.

With Lloyd we used a prong collar and it worked for him. Now he is walked on a flat collar. With Allie we tried a head harness, because she is leash reactive, but she somehow figured out how to pull even with that on. Now we use a plastic version of a prong collar on her. Its not as effective as a regular prong, but it doesn't escalate her reactivity like a metal prong does.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI would recommend a headcollar (such as Halti or Gentle Leader) or a front attaching harness (such as Sense-ation Harness) and lots of training so you can switch back to a regular collar eventually.
> 
> The main difference between the two is that the front-attach harnesses do not provide much control, they just prevent pulling forward. The headcollars allow you to control the dog's movement much more as you are controlling the head. The front-attach harnesses are usually a lot more readily accepted whereas with the headcollars you need to take some time to acclimate the dog to them before you use them, which can sometimes take quite a while if the dog doesn't like the feeling of something on their face.


That's all I need to do, is stop him from pulling forward. He doesn't jump around, acting like a wild man, or anything like that. He just wants to go a lot faster than I typically feel like walking! And since he got away with it once, he doesn't feel the need to control his impulse for chasing small critters anymore, either. 
I'm going to test the harness in the backyard, first. I figure I'll have mom throw a ball while I have the leash - something he'll be [heck] bent on chasing - and see if I have enough control, before we venture out where there's traffic.

And yes, I'd love to switch back to his regular collar, eventually. He'd never been a "puller" before, so I see this as more of a behavioral hiccup. He got away with one and realized that he can do whatever he wants out there. I really want to nip that in the bud, before it progresses.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Melgrj7 I use a front clip harness on Nash. I tried a prong at first, as that is what I normally use for a puller, but he would turn and bite the leash. I didn't want that to progress into handler aggression so we tried a head harness next. He flipped out completely, tried it for a few days, feeding him treats with it on, taking it off, but he scratched his face up pretty good trying to get it off.
> 
> So then we tried the harness. It works wonderfully . . . if I clip the leash to both the harness and a martingale collar that is on somewhat loose. Without clipping it to the martingale collar the front of the harness falls down low (and it is fitted correctly) and the leash gets in his legs. It just works better clipped to the collar and harness. It also makes it so if he manages to get out of the harness he is still attached to the leash. He hasn't yet, but just incase. It also seems to give more control having it connect to both the harness and the martingale collar.


That's an interesting idea. I'll keep that in mind, in case I don't feel like I have enough control with just the harness alone.

I'm afraid I'd have one heck of a time getting him to accept the head collar. He's not food-motivated, so even pairing it with treats wouldn't do much good with him. (He's stubborn and focused and can completely ignore food if his mind is set on something else.) I think it would be a matter of, he'll accept it or he won't - I don't think I could do much to persuade him. lol.


----------



## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

What's the big deal with prong collars? I'm glad there is such concern, but I don't think it takes an expert to show you how to use it, or even how to fit it. Just put it above (higher up than) his regular collar, and use a chain/link to connect the prong collar to his regular collar incase the prong collar comes apart.

Then just give it a quick snap as a correction. I have used it to teach my dog to walk next to me with a "heel" command (it's not a focused look at me heel) and he knows that when I tell him that he must stay by my side. If he is not by my side, he gets a correction, comes back to where he belongs, and we continue. He is VERY good about staying by my side now.

It does not have to be yanked at level-11 all the time either. If it's breaking bad behavior (e.g. jumping up on someone) then it may only take 1 or 2 times of a sudden correction to prevent the behavior. It should work great for a dog who otherwise walks nicely but then thinks he's going to charge after something. Correct him for it (or use it to snap him out of the thought of even trying) then get him back to you where you can continue walking.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Ucdcrush
> It does not have to be yanked at level-11 all the time either. If it's breaking bad behavior (e.g. jumping up on someone) then it may only take 1 or 2 times of a sudden correction to prevent the behavior. It should work great for a dog who otherwise walks nicely but then thinks he's going to charge after something. Correct him for it (or use it to snap him out of the thought of even trying) then get him back to you where you can continue walking.


I don't think I explained my problem with him very well. He used to walk nicely. Doesn't anymore. 
It's not _just_ the sudden charging after something, though that's a problem, too, and it's where our problems started. He pretty much pulls all the time, now. I usually want to walk at a nice, brisk pace and he wants to GO - to the point where I'd have to jog to keep up with him. I've been trying to work it out using a choker-type collar and he pulls against that like it's a regular flat collar. Doesn't phase him. What I'm afraid of is, if he pulls against a prong like that, he's going to hurt himself, especially since I've never used one and really have no clue how to do so.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

From your description it sounds like a front-attaching harness is likely to work well for your situation. If you can find a store that carries these they might let you try it out before buying to see if it works.


----------



## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

I use the new neck-tech prong collar. It is lite weight, prongs do not show, works great, good control. First day, two tugs, loose lease. Mikko walks good with it. Better then the old type where he still tried to pull. I guess it's up to the handler. I have used it 3 weeks now, walks are walks again, not tracking. Just my opinion..


----------



## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I use a prong and I love it.


----------



## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom
> I don't think I explained my problem with him very well. He used to walk nicely. Doesn't anymore.
> It's not _just_ the sudden charging after something, though that's a problem, too, and it's where our problems started. He pretty much pulls all the time, now. I usually want to walk at a nice, brisk pace and he wants to GO - to the point where I'd have to jog to keep up with him. I've been trying to work it out using a choker-type collar and he pulls against that like it's a regular flat collar. Doesn't phase him. What I'm afraid of is, if he pulls against a prong like that, he's going to hurt himself, especially since I've never used one and really have no clue how to do so.


I wouldn't worry about him hurting himself by pulling against a prong collar. If you have your leash attached to the "live ring", the pressure will be applied all around his neck, not in one spot (as would be if you jerked the leash attached to a flat collar). It certainly wouldn't be comfortable to pull against it, but it's not going to damage him.

The more basic question is, is he disobeying a command when he does this pulling/forging? Have you told him your word that means "walk next to me"? He may not know specifically what you want, and in that case I would not use a prong collar to teach it. It can be taught with positive methods, then corrected with a prong collar if he chooses not to do it.

On the same topic.. I have noticed my dog Riku tends to want to "lead" (which he does by forging ahead beyond the heel, but not pulling) when he is super wound up about walking, or if I've let him out of the car while he's wild/barking with excitement. I don't know if Gunner does the same thing, but it's easier to get a dog to follow you (and care where you are, not pull you around) if he's in a relaxed state than if he's highly charged. It might be something else for you and Gunner to make sure he's calm before leaving the house, if he isn't now.


----------



## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Also, it's a good idea to say something just before you give a prong correction (I use "eh!", like a game show buzzer) so that the "eh!" sound is associated with the correction and that sound alone will often suffice to correct a behavior.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Ucdcrush
> The more basic question is, is he disobeying a command when he does this pulling/forging? Have you told him your word that means "walk next to me"? He may not know specifically what you want, and in that case I would not use a prong collar to teach it. It can be taught with positive methods, then corrected with a prong collar if he chooses not to do it.
> 
> On the same topic.. I have noticed my dog Riku tends to want to "lead" (which he does by forging ahead beyond the heel, but not pulling) when he is super wound up about walking, or if I've let him out of the car while he's wild/barking with excitement. I don't know if Gunner does the same thing, but it's easier to get a dog to follow you (and care where you are, not pull you around) if he's in a relaxed state than if he's highly charged. It might be something else for you and Gunner to make sure he's calm before leaving the house, if he isn't now.


Yeah, he's always gotten pretty wound up when he sees his collar and leash come out. Once we were outside and past the car, though (he's not a big fan of going in the car) he knew we were just going for a walk and would calm right down.

Is he disobeying a command? I'd have to give him some latitude here and say no. It was never an issue, so it wasn't something that was formally taught. From day one, he just 'got it' and would walk next to me willingly. He'd get to the end of his leash, but he wouldn't pull - he'd always stop or at least slow down. (It was as if the thought of pulling just never occurred to him. lol.) I would praise him for walking nicely, but there was never any formal training or commands. 
Whenever I'd see him zero in on a rabbit (or a squirrel, or a cat, or whatever) I'd shorten the leash, tell him "Don't even think about it" and would get his attention back on me. That was always enough to do the trick. What happened that one night is, I was turned around locking the door behind us and didn't see the rabbit. He did, and since he didn't hear the "don't..." I imagine all bets were off as far as he was concerned and he figured he was free to go charging after it. He was quite pleased with himself and thought it was great fun. It really seems like a switch was tripped in his brain, right then and there. It was like "Wow - so I can just put my nose to the ground and go! I didn't know I could do that! This is fabulous." LOL. And that's what he's done ever since. I can't get his focus back on me for a second. I've tried to simply stop walking and just stand there until I have his attention, but that doesn't work. I have about twenty pounds on him, so he just pulls me right off my feet.









I picked up an Easy Walk harness this weekend, but it's been so god-awful hot here that we haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I'm just getting him used to the harness, itself, right now.


----------



## norske (Aug 28, 2009)

Interesting suggestions. Or one could properly train the dog in the first place.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I use a prong, but wouldn't recommend it unless you know how to fit it and how to use it.

A gentle flick of your wrist should do it!


----------



## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

I use a harness and it works wonders, Baya hated collars, pulled like crazy to get out of them but we put on the harness and she is much easier to train and work with. Of course shes a pup still but it helped her behavior


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I own all three and have used all three. All I can say is it really depends on the dog.

The one tool that I have heard many dog savvy people despise is the head halters.

When I am using a prong I don't get crap from pedestrians b/c they can't really see it. If it's fitted correctly, the dog's hair eventually falls over it and all they can see is where the lead is connected to the chain. A lot of people see the head halter and think it's a muzzle and that the dog is dangerous (which is not why I hate them). Nikon usually has a prong on for a walk because we walk to a field where we train (SchH) and then take a walk back home. He wears his collar and carries the ball or tug toy in his mouth so I'm not walking with all this stuff.

Personally I'd try a front clip no-pull harness first.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

The weird thing about the prong is lately whenever I walk Obie with the prong I would get accosted by other "prong" people. They would come up to me and start talking about how glad they are to see another one using the prong, how it's not really cruel, how they have been hassled by friends and family about using the prong, etc. etc. It's like a support group or something. Really weird.


----------



## bmass01 (Apr 7, 2005)

Different dogs, different situations.....I think I own everything under the sun....Dallas uses a halti for walks around town on a 3ft leash, a harness for walks in the park on a 25ft lead. Dakota gets a medium prong on a 3ft lead for walks around town, a small prong for all training and either a flat buckle or fur saver for trial or events where a prong is not allowed. 

They are all tools, what matters is the training and consitancy in training.

Good Luck!


----------



## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I just bought a prong this last week and used it on Saturday for the first time with Koch who is approaching 80# and 11 months old. 

I must say, it is instantly a different dog at the end of the leash. 

We had the issue of Koch pulling and pulling on her leash, so much so that she would pull my girlfriend to the ground on occassion. Obvisouly for her safety (of the dog) we have decided to try the prong. 

It is a quick fix for a problem we are working on correcting. I want a dog that can loose leash walk and we will get there. But, for her safety (and my girlfriends sanity), we have decided to go with it and a 15'' leash for walking. 

Honestly, I wish I did it sooner. Even if we go without it, she has picked up fast on heeling. It wasn't my optimal way for her to learn, i'd much rather it be all "positive" training, but it is what it is. We haven't had to give her a correction yet, rather if she gets ahead of us, we stop walking and so does she.


----------



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I outfit so many dogs in my classes with prong collars on another forum I belong to we call it power steering for your dog. The biggest question I get from clients is must my dog wear one for the rest of his life. 

My answer is there is a way to transition your dog from a prong to a normal collar properly but in the begining you do not want your dog to become collar smart.

Desensitizing is another problem. You really have to master the "POP" snap in your wrist to get the proper correction and not PULL or tug in one long motion back towards you. 

The way best to describe this is a tug of war game.....
Which team wins tug o war? the team that gives a bit of slack then POPS the other team back. (I have only had 2 people in over 10 years give me the right answer on that one) 

Then the next step is to hand the owner the loop end of the leash and tell them to hold on tight as I demo the type of pop that is required and the difference in feeling between the pop and pull correction. ( Thanks to Bernhard Flinks for teaching me how to demo this properly to clients







)


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> Personally I'd try a front clip no-pull harness first.


That's what I went with and I absolutely love it.
My only complaint is that it can loosen up a bit after we've walked for a while. But I just attach the leash to both the harness and a loose martingale, like Melissa suggested, for some added safety and it works great!

We're making progress with the "heel" concept, but with the harness, at least I know I have enough control while we're working on it. I don't have to be afraid that he's going to pull us both out in front of an oncoming car, should he decide that he wants to chase something.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinThe weird thing about the prong is lately whenever I walk Obie with the prong I would get accosted by other "prong" people. They would come up to me and start talking about how glad they are to see another one using the prong, how it's not really cruel, how they have been hassled by friends and family about using the prong, etc. etc. It's like a support group or something. Really weird.


Ya know when people go around trying to justifiy using something, maybe there's something in that. 

Prong users LOVE to suggest prongs and see other people using them because it makes them feel strength in numbers. Maybe if others are doing it, I am not so bad for doing it too. Maybe if others are using it, then maybe I am not such a failure because I cannot control my dog with out a correction collar. 

I cannot wait until PETA and the animal rights wackos convince the government to ban these. I find them every bit as bad as chaining a dog. 

I live quite nicely with nine GSDs, and I do not "pop" any of them. When I walk my parents 90+ pound GSD that is completely untrained, I do not "pop" him either. It is so unnecessary.


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I am completely pro-prong. I have tried just about every collar option there is with my boys and it has worked the best for us. Addressing those you specifically mentioned.

Halti- Although it works well for some dogs, it just annoyed the heck out of Moose and I thought Bison was going to snap his neck flinging himself around to get it off.

Harness- To my dogs, harness=pull Amy down the street

Prong- Love it! We refer to it as “power steering”. I was very hesitant to use the prong because it looks so scary. But several things changed my mind.

1. Our breeder demonstrated the proper use of it with one of their dogs. I still wasn't convinced until they put it on my arm and gave it a pop like you would if it was on your dog. It didn't hurt at all. I understand that the dog doesn't feel in the same way that I do, but this was just the first step. 
2. My husband did a ton of research and found that autopsies of dogs who wore prongs had less tissue damage than those who wore chain/choke collars. 
3. I tried it out! Our walks were completely different! Moose no longer was completely annoyed and frustrated and Bison didn’t drag me down the street. 
4. However, the most convincing to me is their reaction to it. When I would pick up the halti, they would run away. If they even hear the prong jingle, they run full speed over to it and bark and run in circles. Obviously, they don’t think it is cruel.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah and my dogs will do that if I reach for the leash or let the car keys jingle, they just want to go. They do NOT love the leash or the prong. 

So far I heard of one study done years ago, funded no doubt by the prong companies, which in fact could sway results. But I heard to that it was common practice to hang dogs up by choke chains until they stopped struggling. Yeah, there WOULD be damage. 

ANYTHING, even your precious prong collars can be abused. 

My problem is the need for correction collars. 

If you have had the dog from a puppy and you need a correction collar than you did not train your dog properly. People are not dogs, but if you were at work and not trained for a job, so they decide to put a shock collar on you and shock you every time you make a mistake, would that be fair? Would you be happy? 

Yes, the dog gets excited when he hears it jingle, that is because he thinks he is going to get to go WITH you. 

The reason this topic totally irks me is that these dogs WANT to please you. They WANT to please us. They want to be with us. Instead of training them how to walk nicely on a lead with patience and practice, we jump directly to correcting them with a correction collar and popping them. 

Will it damage the dog? Probably not. I have heard of people putting a hole in their dog's neck with a prong, never heard of that with a chok chain, but whatever. Will it damage your relationship with the dog? Well, that is really hard to gage. I think it depends on how hard or soft the dog is and what their touch sensitivity is. 

Oh yeah, the dog associates the pop with the leash or the collar and not with the human on the other end of it. Well, I can tell Babs to "Go to the car" or go in the back yard or go to my bed or any number of things, and I can guarantee that she KNOWS where a correction is coming from. In fact, I hate the idea of a correction magically coming out of the blue. 

I've had dogs that pull, and strong willed dogs, and intelligent dogs, and I do not NEED a prong to control them. You can get a thousand people to swear by them, and that doesn't make them any less horrible. It just means that a thousand people have found a short cut to training their dogs.


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Selzer,

Yes, you certainly have some strong opinions. And my intention was not to start an argument. The post was to provide information on collar options to the person who started the post, no to make this a soap box competition. I am sure they are intelligent and can make a decision that is best for their dog.

I would, however, like to correct one thing. I never said that my dogs love the prong. My point was that they don't DISLIKE it. My dogs do DISLIKE the halti. When I would pull out the halti they would run and try to avoid it even though they wanted to go for a walk or ride. This tells me that they do dislike one option even if they want to please me. 

Deni,

Obviously, this is a controversial topic. Bottom line is you need to select what works best for YOU and your dogs. The best way I can suggest to do that is try them out. The local pet store is a good place to try out collar options without having to purchase.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Ucdcrush
> ...


I'm sorry, I missed what your trainer is recommending? I've found that most of my training isn't JUST about the equipment I use, but more importantly how I use it (fit it, timing of use......etc.). 

So I also recommend doing this the easy way. With your trainer and what they suggest. Though if they continue to recommend the regular choke collar (which not only doesn't usually work but also can do harm ( click here for info)  I'd probably just go to someone else.

I agree that we don't all HAVE to use a trainer. But if it's better for our pups to learn fast, well, easier and clearer (cause when what I am doing is NOT working, clearly I need to learn something else) and a great trainer helps. It's all about finding the trainer for me. BEFORE the problem is overwhelming and the dog is an adult.


----------



## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieDeni,
> Obviously, this is a controversial topic. Bottom line is you need to select what works best for YOU and your dogs. The best way I can suggest to do that is try them out. The local pet store is a good place to try out collar options without having to purchase.


Yeah, I guess it is. lol. I admit - I used to HATE prongs. I thought they were barbaric and cruel. But I've learned enough on this board to have reached the opinion that they're perfectly safe and effective on the right dog, in the right hands and used properly. 
That said, I didn't think it was the best option for Gunner. He's too sensitive and too soft. If I make training or walking unpleasant for him, he'll get stressed-out and shut down. I figured the harness was best for him. It's not uncomfortable for him, yet gives me enough control to keep us both safe for the time being.






> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> I'm sorry, I missed what your trainer is recommending? I've found that most of my training isn't JUST about the equipment I use, but more importantly how I use it (fit it, timing of use......etc.).
> 
> So I also recommend doing this the easy way. With your trainer and what they suggest. Though if they continue to recommend the regular choke collar (which not only doesn't usually work but also can do harm ( click here for info)  I'd probably just go to someone else.
> ...


I agree on the regular choke collars. I always liked them with Gunner because I knew he couldn't slip it, had we found ourselves in a situation. But it clearly wasn't the right collar to use when he started pulling.
I haven't called in a trainer, yet. I may or may not have to - we'll see how it goes. I've started from square one, teaching him the actual 'heel' command. So far, indoors, he's got it. I want to work with him just a little bit more inside the house and then move it out to the yard.
If need be, I'll find a good trainer around here, but we _might_ be able to fix this without one. At least I'm hoping we can.


----------



## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

[/quote]
I had been looking at one of these. I like the _idea_, but didn't know if it would give me enough control. 
http://www.softouchconcepts.com/

I guess there would be no harm in trying it. Anything I'd try would be thoroughly tested in the yard, behind the fence, before we head out in the open, anyway. 

If that doesn't work, I'll be looking for a trainer and a prong. I don't exactly trust the salesperson at PetSmart to show me how to properly use one of those! 

Thanks guys! [/quote] 



I just got one of the SENSE-ible harnesses. Iska pulled so hard I was worried about harming her neck. For her, this works great. It gets her to move back or forward so that I can keep her roughly along side me as we walk and it doesn't hurt her.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Liesje
> ...


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Happy to hear you found something that works well for you and Gunner!


----------

