# Hard Surface Tracking



## mycobraracr

Last week I went to a hard surface tracking seminar by Jerry Bradshaw at my local PD. I had a little bit of knowledge on how to do it, but I had a few holes in my program. The seminar was amazing. Jerry and his team were great instructors. So I took my new knowledge, and started my two Dutchies on it yesterday. They are taking to it well. 

What are some of the methods you guys use for HST? 

Winston 5 months old first Hard Surface Track





Cy, my green dog 18 months old and has zero training. First Hard Surface Track


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## CeraDean

Great videos, as always.

I see you have placed treats along the track but did you place something else? There are darker marks that might just be asphalt fixes or something you put there. 

In another words, how did you lay this track different from a grass track?


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## mycobraracr

CeraDean said:


> Great videos, as always.
> 
> I see you have placed treats along the track but did you place something else? There are darker marks that might just be asphalt fixes or something you put there.
> 
> In another words, how did you lay this track different from a grass track?



The dark line, is water. I sprayed water down and walked over the water to hold my scent. I then placed treats along the track to keep their heads down and reward them going forward. Just like in grass, starting with food in every footstep, then slowly fading it away. 

The difference between this and a grass track is what the dog is scenting. IN grass, the dog is more tracking the ground disturbance than human odor. The ground disturbance is the stronger scent so easier for the dog to follow. The hard surface the dog is following the human scent. The water helps to hold the odor when they are first starting. So I sprayed the water down and made about 4 passes over it. Then laid the treats down and ran them. The water also helps me know where I went


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## LuvShepherds

Your dogs both did very well. We have only done grass tracking. I want to try that. My training is all informal but I want to do it the right away. What do you use for treats and how hungry is the dog before you start?


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## CeraDean

mycobraracr said:


> The hard surface the dog is following the human scent.


This! 

Thanks a bunch for your detailed description. 

We're doing the grass tracks but it's not very good for actual application (especially considering we don't have much grass in our forest). I've been told grass is ideal for laying a good foundation of nose to ground.


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## mycobraracr

LuvShepherds said:


> Your dogs both did very well. We have only done grass tracking. I want to try that. My training is all informal but I want to do it the right away. What do you use for treats and how hungry is the dog before you start?



Thanks! I'm using hotdogs for treats. I didn't feed them breakfast, and ran the tracks about the time they would normally eat. So not anything too crazy. If your dog isn't super food motivated, maybe only feed half the prior meal.


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## mycobraracr

CeraDean said:


> This!
> 
> Thanks a bunch for your detailed description.
> 
> We're doing the grass tracks but it's not very good for actual application (especially considering we don't have much grass in our forest). I've been told grass is ideal for laying a good foundation of nose to ground.



It is! I always put a foundation of grass tracking on my dogs. Winston and Cy are the first two that I'm trying hard surface first. Winston did have a couple session of soft surface tracking first, but not enough to really get him going. I do other things as well. Like when I'm busy and don't have time to work them for their meals I'll chuck their food into the grass and make them hunt to find each kibble. I did it to Winston the other night. The little dude was out there for half an hour hunting to find each piece haha. I was impressed that as a puppy he stuck with it that long.


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## LuvShepherds

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks! I'm using hotdogs for treats. I didn't feed them breakfast, and ran the tracks about the time they would normally eat. So not anything too crazy. If your dog isn't super food motivated, maybe only feed half the prior meal.


I can do it early before breakfast. Mine is on a special diet so treats are limited, but fortunately he loves the food.

Is there a reason why you are teaching hard tracking first to those two dogs?


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## car2ner

wow, I've listened to his podcast. Never seen him in action

https://player.fm/series/controlled-aggression/intro-police-k9-hard-surface-tracking


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## mycobraracr

car2ner said:


> wow, I've listened to his podcast. Never seen him in action
> 
> https://player.fm/series/controlled-aggression/intro-police-k9-hard-surface-tracking



He was amazing to learn from! He explains things very well, makes it easy to understand and follow.


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## Thecowboysgirl

mycobraracr said:


> The dark line, is water. I sprayed water down and walked over the water to hold my scent. I then placed treats along the track to keep their heads down and reward them going forward. Just like in grass, starting with food in every footstep, then slowly fading it away.
> 
> The difference between this and a grass track is what the dog is scenting. IN grass, the dog is more tracking the ground disturbance than human odor. The ground disturbance is the stronger scent so easier for the dog to follow. The hard surface the dog is following the human scent. The water helps to hold the odor when they are first starting. So I sprayed the water down and made about 4 passes over it. Then laid the treats down and ran them. The water also helps me know where I went


Thanks for posting this. My dog tracks well on most groundcover, and he tracks in woods/ leaf litter about the same but he really falls apart on hard surfaces. I think a made a big mistake not trying to teach it early on. It's something I've really wanted to do. I think I'll try this! So you spray the water but only walk on it, the water itself isn't scented? I think I've heard of putting dirty socks or something in the water


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## Thecowboysgirl

I was talking about this with an AKC Tracking judge a couple of months ago asking her suggestions to try and get my dog going on hard surface because it's hard to get him to put his nose down and work, he just doesn't think the track will be there I guess.

She said she has tried sock feet, and also smearing like lunchmeat on her shoe soles to try and make a more noticeable scent for a green dog to follow.

My dog usually tracks 20-30 feet ahead of me, @mycobraracr would you think I should get right up there with him to try and get him to put his nose down and work as if he is a green dog because on hard surface he is?


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## mycobraracr

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Thanks for posting this. My dog tracks well on most groundcover, and he tracks in woods/ leaf litter about the same but he really falls apart on hard surfaces. I think a made a big mistake not trying to teach it early on. It's something I've really wanted to do. I think I'll try this! So you spray the water but only walk on it, the water itself isn't scented? I think I've heard of putting dirty socks or something in the water



There is a method of putting dirty stinky clothes in the water. I am not following that method. The theory is, if you can teach them to follow trace amounts of odor then it's easy to raise the amount of odor. If you teach them to track on a lot of odor, then they easily get confused when there is trace amounts. 

The water is just distilled water so there are no chemicals or minerals in it for odor. The water helps hold your skin graphs and stuff that fall off when you walk. You then lay hot dogs, food or something like that along the way for reinforcement. There is more to it than that, and I'd strongly recommend listening to Jerry's podcast on it as well as signing up to be a patron. I believe he has his course notes on it.


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## Thecowboysgirl

mycobraracr said:


> There is a method of putting dirty stinky clothes in the water. I am not following that method. The theory is, if you can teach them to follow trace amounts of odor then it's easy to raise the amount of odor. If you teach them to track on a lot of odor, then they easily get confused when there is trace amounts.
> 
> The water is just distilled water so there are no chemicals or minerals in it for odor. The water helps hold your skin graphs and stuff that fall off when you walk. You then lay hot dogs, food or something like that along the way for reinforcement. There is more to it than that, and I'd strongly recommend listening to Jerry's podcast on it as well as signing up to be a patron. I believe he has his course notes on it.


What did you spray it from? And did you walk back and forth on the same track 4 times, lots of AKC ppl have told me this is a nono because the dog can tell the direction of the track and you don't want to train him to go in the wrong direction?


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## mycobraracr

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I was talking about this with an AKC Tracking judge a couple of months ago asking her suggestions to try and get my dog going on hard surface because it's hard to get him to put his nose down and work, he just doesn't think the track will be there I guess.
> 
> She said she has tried sock feet, and also smearing like lunchmeat on her shoe soles to try and make a more noticeable scent for a green dog to follow.
> 
> My dog usually tracks 20-30 feet ahead of me, @mycobraracr would you think I should get right up there with him to try and get him to put his nose down and work as if he is a green dog because on hard surface he is?



They are tracking different scents when on soft surface vs. hard surface. On soft surface they are tracking the ground disturbance since that's the strongest odor. Hard surface doesn't have the vegetation disturbance and the scent in general is less. The scent falls into the cracks, and in between.


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## mycobraracr

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What did you spray it from? And did you walk back and forth on the same track 4 times, lots of AKC ppl have told me this is a nono because the dog can tell the direction of the track and you don't want to train him to go in the wrong direction?



It is sprayed from a garden sprayer. A clean never used garden sprayer. Yes I laid water down four times (walking on it). The dogs can definitely tell the direction of travel. So, after I sprayed the water down, I walked back over it in the direction I wanted the track ran and put down the food. That way the last time I went on it, it was in the direction of travel I wanted. 

Also if you notice, I start into the track from a 90 degree angle. Not straight into it. This helps with casting to a track later, also tells me if they can find the direction of travel. On today's track, Cy quickly checked to our left then went right, the direction of the track. He figured out real fast which direction we were going. Does this make sense?


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## Thecowboysgirl

mycobraracr said:


> It is sprayed from a garden sprayer. A clean never used garden sprayer. Yes I laid water down four times (walking on it). The dogs can definitely tell the direction of travel. So, after I sprayed the water down, I walked back over it in the direction I wanted the track ran and put down the food. That way the last time I went on it, it was in the direction of travel I wanted.
> 
> Also if you notice, I start into the track from a 90 degree angle. Not straight into it. This helps with casting to a track later, also tells me if they can find the direction of travel. On today's track, Cy quickly checked to our left then went right, the direction of the track. He figured out real fast which direction we were going. Does this make sense?


Yes but I'd have to assume they could also still smell the other passes in the other direction?

We do baby tracks for new dogs like that in the grass, back and forth a couple of times. And I've run a new dog on a track I just ran another dog down so obviously they can start off with more scents and then boil it down later


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## mycobraracr

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes but I'd have to assume they could also still smell the other passes in the other direction?
> 
> We do baby tracks for new dogs like that in the grass, back and forth a couple of times. And I've run a new dog on a track I just ran another dog down so obviously they can start off with more scents and then boil it down later



Sure they can smell the other passes, but which one is the strongest scent? That's the one they're most likely to follow. In soft surface I don't make multiple passes, no real need to. 

Dogs can start with more scents, that's the "Stew" method when teaching detection. Teach all the odors at once. Running a dog over a track another dog ran makes sense. Again in softer surfaces, they are following more the ground disturbance than human or dog odor.


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## Thecowboysgirl

mycobraracr said:


> Sure they can smell the other passes, but which one is the strongest scent? That's the one they're most likely to follow. In soft surface I don't make multiple passes, no real need to.
> 
> Dogs can start with more scents, that's the "Stew" method when teaching detection. Teach all the odors at once. Running a dog over a track another dog ran makes sense. Again in softer surfaces, they are following more the ground disturbance than human or dog odor.


So an interesting spin on that-- cross tracks. I've been training cross tracks Since last year because we have TDX dreams. On the TDX the tracklayer is always the older track so I always have my cross track go in at least 2 hours after the original. His very first cross track threw him but since then he might indicate with a look but often does not acknowledge the cross track.

I wonder if that is because he knows it isn't the right person or it isn't the right age. 

I've heard people say to a dog it's like saying follow the person in the red shirt. (the specific track amongst all the tracks)

Mind you 98% of the tracking we've ever done is in hayfields or other nature areas where there is no other human scent but the track


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## Hineni7

I trail, the distinction being not a FST, however, I've never had difficulty with dogs on VST or hard surfaces.. They have just naturally followed the odor wherever it was laid... Even my newest who is now 14mos old, worked hard surfaces as young as 12wks old...


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## dogbyte

I have done something similar, but used RO (or distilled) water and soaked my just worn socks in it. Scent in a bottle. Need to do this more. You inspire me. I have a small pressure sprayer, but need to wait until we don't have 50+mph wind gusts. Loved by a Dutch


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## Hineni7

I've never had difficulty on VST or hard surfaces.. My dogs have just naturally continued to trail.. Even the pup at 12wks was working hard surfaces.. I am not sure if it is us as humans that have the issue more then the dog


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## Jax08

Hmmm...where would one go to learn hard surface tracking? I had to pull my guy from IGP due to grass allergies but he loves to track. This is something he could do!


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## Hineni7

If you know how to teach a dog to track on grass you can teach them to track on hard surfaces... I really think it is the unban that has the issue, lol.

Hydrating the area first is the new fad, and has some science behind it as odor is hydrophilic and gives moisture to dogs nose. Using bare or socked feet can deposit a bit more odor... But if your dog already knows how to follow odor, and they are loyal to it, they will follow it over any surface... As to IGP, the slow FST track will require a bit more finesse, but the theory is the same


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## mycobraracr

Hineni7 said:


> I trail, the distinction being not a FST, however, I've never had difficulty with dogs on VST or hard surfaces.. They have just naturally followed the odor wherever it was laid... Even my newest who is now 14mos old, worked hard surfaces as young as 12wks old...





Hineni7 said:


> I've never had difficulty on VST or hard surfaces.. My dogs have just naturally continued to trail.. Even the pup at 12wks was working hard surfaces.. I am not sure if it is us as humans that have the issue more then the dog





Hineni7 said:


> If you know how to teach a dog to track on grass you can teach them to track on hard surfaces... I really think it is the unban that has the issue, lol.
> 
> Hydrating the area first is the new fad, and has some science behind it as odor is hydrophilic and gives moisture to dogs nose. Using bare or socked feet can deposit a bit more odor... But if your dog already knows how to follow odor, and they are loyal to it, they will follow it over any surface... As to IGP, the slow FST track will require a bit more finesse, but the theory is the same



Yeah, trailing is different. Generally they are gathering scent from everything, not just ground scent. When Kimber is doing building searches or open field searches, she is more trailing. It's awesome to watch. She hits the edges of the scent cone and it looks like she ran into a wall. 

The reason a lot of police dog trainers are going to tracking over trailing is because the speed. Trailing is generally faster. Tracking is slower and more methodical. Since they are generally tracking to danger, they don't want to rush into a bad situation or a bad bite. 

There are a lot of similarities, to grass tracking, but some differences. The water is a newer fad. Not super new, but... The reason it works is the surface tension of the water. It suspends the skin graphs and such to the surface making it easier for the dog to pick up. Also and in my opinion equally important is that it lets the handler know where the track is. Otherwise how do you know if your dog is on it, or if it's just smelling the roses? The water and food are only for the beginning stages. It gets faded out.


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## mycobraracr

Jax08 said:


> Hmmm...where would one go to learn hard surface tracking? I had to pull my guy from IGP due to grass allergies but he loves to track. This is something he could do!


Seminars are happening all over. There are also some good books on it. If you're on Instagram, then look at @TK9fire. They basically walk through then steps of this puppy learning it.


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## car2ner

mycobraracr said:


> The reason a lot of police dog trainers are going to tracking over trailing is because the speed. Trailing is generally faster. Tracking is slower and more methodical. Since they are generally tracking to danger, they don't want to rush into a bad situation or a bad bite.


Before I heard this on the Controlled Aggression podcast, "tracking to danger" I hadn't ever crossed my mind. There has to be a balance between finding your target before they escape and not rushing headlong into a bad situation. Can't be easy to find that sweet spot.


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## Hineni7

Agreed on the slower aspect of tracking vs Trailing... As well as why water is used for suspension of odor. My point was just that if a dog follows odor, hard surfaces are not really a problem.. There are intricacies that occur due to odor skating across the surface at times, as well as the bldgs and obstacles creating eddies and odor distortion, but if a dog is loyal to odor, they will follow it to its conclusion. Regardless of surface


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## LuvShepherds

I thought the track must be laid down by someone the dog doesn’t know so they don’t follow their owner’s scent to the start of the trail the owner has set down. If a stranger lays down a scent or walks a track, the dog doesn’t automatically go to it by recognition.


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## Hineni7

Yep! If the handlerays the dogs track, then basically the dog should turn around and look at them expecting their reward... As a SAR K9 handler I never Kay my dogs tracks.. Ever.. I know some people who have, and honestly, they consistently have trouble with their dog on odor.

I've even gotten into trouble telling my dog to ignore the hot track (I have 3 Trailing dogs, so sometimes an end of one trail is the beginning of the next trail for the next dog. Having someone get back to the next end spot if they don't have a car means they walk, basically laying a fresher trail, albeit not directly next to the aged trail about to be run, but still near the start of the track) and run the aged I track I want run... Not a good practice as I want my dog to always find their target odors freshest track.. So I run a lot of aged to hot tracks to help correct my mistakes..


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## mycobraracr

Winston's track from today. This is the mall parking lot in front of Outback Steak House at lunch time. So you could smell the food from there. The asphalt was very broken up in some areas, and I introduced going over a curb/median today. He's progressing well. I am also fading myself out of the picture a bit.


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## Steve Strom

Fading yourself out, the way he concentrates on that track, it looks like you could sit in the truck. Thats pretty nice.


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## mycobraracr

Steve Strom said:


> Fading yourself out, the way he concentrates on that track, it looks like you could sit in the truck. Thats pretty nice.



Thanks! He's taking to it well. I'm staying close just in case he messes up. This is only his third tracking session. 

His bite work and OB are coming along too! 

Winston Launch by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
IMG_6008 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

This is old but... 

69504639_10218043524792319_2901881502352539648_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## mycobraracr

LuvShepherds said:


> I thought the track must be laid down by someone the dog doesn’t know so they don’t follow their owner’s scent to the start of the trail the owner has set down. If a stranger lays down a scent or walks a track, the dog doesn’t automatically go to it by recognition.



In the beginning stages, the handler usually lays the track. When first starting, I don't think it really matters too much.


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## LuvShepherds

mycobraracr said:


> In the beginning stages, the handler usually lays the track. When first starting, I don't think it really matters too much.


Ok, thanks. When do you switch with your dogs?


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## mycobraracr

LuvShepherds said:


> Ok, thanks. When do you switch with your dogs?



For what I'm doing, whenever I have someone else with me haha. In sport like IPO or whatever it's called this week, usually around the 2's is when someone other than the handler lays the tracks.


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## mycobraracr

This is Cy's third session. I backed him up a bit. I felt that he was trying to rush the track. I'm trying to get him to settle a bit more, so I changed the spacing on the rewards to slow him down. I will be starting both boys on articles today I think.


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## Steve Strom

Something I learned that was pretty helpful, settle him down before you begin the track. When they start like that, its tougher to slow them down.


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## mycobraracr

Steve Strom said:


> Something I learned that was pretty helpful, settle him down before you begin the track. When they start like that, its tougher to slow them down.



That did cross my mind, I just wasn't sure if I wanted to start that yet. Cy's story is an interesting one. I've only had him less than 2 weeks. He's 18 months old and has/had ZERO training. I figured I'd pick him up and give him a shot. I really like him so far.


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## Steve Strom

I'd think about at least calmly getting the leash set a few feet from the track.


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## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> Ok, thanks. When do you switch with your dogs?


As far as IGP, as soon as the foundation is on your dog and if you have someone you trust to lay a good track, you should start. Put that in the foundation and you'll reduce issues later. Same with articles. Trade articles with other people for different scents.


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## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> As far as IGP, as soon as the foundation is on your dog and if you have someone you trust to lay a good track, you should start. Put that in the foundation and you'll reduce issues later. Same with articles. Trade articles with other people for different scents.


My friend was trying to title her dog and could not find new people to lay track for her. Her dog could pick up a scent of someone he had met even once. She was using purchased scents and had a horrible time finding way to practice.


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## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> My friend was trying to title her dog and could not find new people to lay track for her. Her dog could pick up a scent of someone he had met even once. She was using purchased scents and had a horrible time finding way to practice.


Title in what? What do you mean "purchased scents"?

In IGP, they are scenting crushed grass. The reason to get them on someone else's track is more about the distance between footsteps, corners laid differently. I trade articles with people and try to keep them in sealed bags. If she needs different scents on the articles, just take new ones to work and ask co-workers to carry them for a couple of hours then seal them in bags.

Sometimes you have to be creative in training. I've used kids on a playground for a group before.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I've laid 90% of all the tracks my dog has ever run. He seems to track better on a track laid by a stranger. He was a tracking machine in both tests he has been in

His first track not laid by me was his TD certification track. Second was his actual TD

Almost all the AKC trackers I know do the same


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## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> Title in what? What do you mean "purchased scents"?
> 
> In IGP, they are scenting crushed grass. The reason to get them on someone else's track is more about the distance between footsteps, corners laid differently. I trade articles with people and try to keep them in sealed bags. If she needs different scents on the articles, just take new ones to work and ask co-workers to carry them for a couple of hours then seal them in bags.
> 
> Sometimes you have to be creative in training. I've used kids on a playground for a group before.


Scent detection. She was using some kind of strong scent, like skunk? Or fox pee. I don’t remember. 

So, you are all training for different activities. You are doing IGP. Hineni does SAR. Cobra does protection. Is the training different for each one?


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## CeraDean

Alright. I was tempted enough to try hard surface tracking with my 11 week old. 

Background: he's been doing IGP style tracks since I got him, almost three weeks now. Starting with scent pads, then triangles and now toe to toe tracks. I use kibble because I use half his meals for training. He does about twenty feet pretty well, with deep nose and methodical speed on good days. He does this at home and parks with distraction. In grass, he's usually with the track and not distracted easily. He seems to enjoy himself and we have a good time doing it.

My hard surface process: I used a supersoaker to lay a track in my driveway. I walked the track toe to toe three times all in the direction of the track. I laid a kibble in every foot print.

Vandal didn't seem as happy or concentrated on the hard surface as he is in grass. He got distracted from the track twice and missed two kibbles. I used the close hand gesture like mycobraracr did in the video. I am wondering if it is because I didn't start with a scent pad on the hard surface. Something like a square of water, walked in and then sprinkled with kibble. I know he's young and that can contribute too. I'll try another tomorrow, either a short track or a pad. 

Any thoughts?


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## mycobraracr

LuvShepherds said:


> So, you are all training for different activities. You are doing IGP. Hineni does SAR. Cobra does protection. Is the training different for each one?



There is some carry over, but the finished product is different. For IGP precision is key. Every footstep, micro-step and everything is important. For Hineni, lives are on the line so speed is of the essence and if I remember correctly she posted some threads a while back about some really gnarly searches. Honestly I do various types of tracking, detection and searches. Ultimately I try and prep dogs for dual purpose as well as some sport. My original foundation was in SchH tracking. My first mentor was a world level tracking guy, and he would call me at 0500 and tell me to get my a$$ up and go tracking with him haha. I personally have found that sport style tracking has helped a ton and set a good foundation for the dogs. So I've started every dog on it since. Every dog I've sold has at least started on sport style tracking. Kimber runs tracks, does building searches, article searches and some detection. I think it all is good and fun.


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## mycobraracr

CeraDean said:


> Alright. I was tempted enough to try hard surface tracking with my 11 week old.
> 
> Background: he's been doing IGP style tracks since I got him, almost three weeks now. Starting with scent pads, then triangles and now toe to toe tracks. I use kibble because I use half his meals for training. He does about twenty feet pretty well, with deep nose and methodical speed on good days. He does this at home and parks with distraction. In grass, he's usually with the track and not distracted easily. He seems to enjoy himself and we have a good time doing it.
> 
> My hard surface process: I used a supersoaker to lay a track in my driveway. I walked the track toe to toe three times all in the direction of the track. I laid a kibble in every foot print.
> 
> Vandal didn't seem as happy or concentrated on the hard surface as he is in grass. He got distracted from the track twice and missed two kibbles. I used the close hand gesture like mycobraracr did in the video. I am wondering if it is because I didn't start with a scent pad on the hard surface. Something like a square of water, walked in and then sprinkled with kibble. I know he's young and that can contribute too. I'll try another tomorrow, either a short track or a pad.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Couple things, 1) Make sure there is a good amount of water down. Also use distilled water. Tap water has chlorine, fluoride and other stuff in it that the dogs can pick up on. 2) Use a bigger reward. Like physically bigger. In the beginning stages, you can use some visual aid to help with the process. That's what my hand is pointing to in the video. The next hot dog to work on keeping the head down and forward motion. You can use scent pads like on soft surface, however not necessary. 

This is Winston's last track. I threw some new things at him. Too many at once, so I will back track some. I got a little ahead of myself. There is limited water on the track, I added a couple 90 degree corners, and no hot dogs on the track. There is a food reward (not hot dogs), but it's mashed into the concrete, so no visual aid.


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## CeraDean

mycobraracr said:


> Couple things, 1) Make sure there is a good amount of water down. Also use distilled water. Tap water has chlorine, fluoride and other stuff in it that the dogs can pick up on. 2) Use a bigger reward. Like physically bigger. In the beginning stages, you can use some visual aid to help with the process. That's what my hand is pointing to in the video. The next hot dog to work on keeping the head down and forward motion. You can use scent pads like on soft surface, however not necessary.
> 
> This is Winston's last track. I threw some new things at him. Too many at once, so I will back track some. I got a little ahead of myself. There is limited water on the track, I added a couple 90 degree corners, and no hot dogs on the track. There is a food reward (not hot dogs), but it's mashed into the concrete, so no visual aid.
> 
> https://youtu.be/qWyxhhPAgEQ


Thank you for the pointers. I really appreciate it.

I tried again with more water (distilled this time) and two kibbles per reward. I also reviewed your hand pointing and tried to mimic it more effectively. Your videos really helped. He did much better this time, not distracted and nose down. He missed one kibble pile but I think that was because he saw the jackpot at the end. I'd rather the jackpot be us celebrating together so next time I don't think I'll give him a big finish. We enjoyed ourselves. Thank you again for the original suggestion by the post and then the feedback.


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## LuvShepherds

Why do you use your hand to guide him? Can he find the track without it? Could you use a short traffic lead rather than dragging a leash? Or is there a reason he needs to be leashed?


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## Steve Strom

CeraDean said:


> Alright. I was tempted enough to try hard surface tracking with my 11 week old.
> 
> Background: he's been doing IGP style tracks since I got him, almost three weeks now. Starting with scent pads, then triangles and now toe to toe tracks. I use kibble because I use half his meals for training. He does about twenty feet pretty well, with deep nose and methodical speed on good days. He does this at home and parks with distraction. In grass, he's usually with the track and not distracted easily. He seems to enjoy himself and we have a good time doing it.
> 
> My hard surface process: I used a supersoaker to lay a track in my driveway. I walked the track toe to toe three times all in the direction of the track. I laid a kibble in every foot print.
> 
> Vandal didn't seem as happy or concentrated on the hard surface as he is in grass. He got distracted from the track twice and missed two kibbles. I used the close hand gesture like mycobraracr did in the video. I am wondering if it is because I didn't start with a scent pad on the hard surface. Something like a square of water, walked in and then sprinkled with kibble. I know he's young and that can contribute too. I'll try another tomorrow, either a short track or a pad.
> 
> Any thoughts?


For the foundation work with him, I'd stick to one or the other. Since he was already started on grass with the scent pads etc. I'd stick with that and add the different surfaces later. In every different type of tracking, you use previous tracks to build for the next tracks. I'd worry that your going to miss some opportunities with that.


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## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> Scent detection. She was using some kind of strong scent, like skunk? Or fox pee. I don’t remember.
> 
> So, you are all training for different activities. You are doing IGP. Hineni does SAR. Cobra does protection. Is the training different for each one?


IGP is very obedience based tracking. Footstep to footstep, no air scenting. It's actually unnatural for the dogs. 

SAR, K9 work, AKC is based in air scenting.

Faren will continue with IGP style since she's my up and coming sport dog. A friend who is a K9 officer is going to help me get Seger started in hard surface tracking to keep him involved without what he's allergic too bothering him. AKC has an urban tracking title we can work towards. From what I understand, it's easier for the dogs to go from IGP to air scenting but not so easy the other way. So if you are going to to IGP then start with that foundation.


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## CeraDean

Steve Strom said:


> For the foundation work with him, I'd stick to one or the other. Since he was already started on grass with the scent pads etc. I'd stick with that and add the different surfaces later. In every different type of tracking, you use previous tracks to build for the next tracks. I'd worry that your going to miss some opportunities with that.


Always value your opinion Steve 

I agree the foundation is important. I admit part of me wanting to do hard surface was impatience and the coolness of it. But the other reason was worrying about Vandal getting hung up on grass and having difficulty later in life adjusting to a different surface. (Background for everyone else: Vandal will be doing human finding in my personal life, not SAR but close). 

I seriously doubt I will lose my son in an open grassy field like IGP, it is more likely to happen in a loud or crowded urban setting, high chance of indoors. There's also the issue of training availability, we have to drive to find a grassy field which we do currently three to four times a week but then I am juggling the kids and training the puppy which adds a fun additional layer to the training. There's also the factor that very soon, there isn't going to be a lot of grass to work with, just snow. I'm not sure how people do winter IGP tracking training.

In Vandal's current training regime, we are also doing hide and seek in the house. I notice that he rarely puts his nose to the ground during these games. He checks previous spots and maybe air scents but not as his go to, maybe because there is so much of our scent in the house. I believe I am correct to want to get his nose down if he can't find the hider.

Or it really could all boil down to impatience to do something that would apply. :grin2: I will give it some serious thought.


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## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> IGP is very obedience based tracking. Footstep to footstep, no air scenting. It's actually unnatural for the dogs.
> 
> SAR, K9 work, AKC is based in air scenting.
> 
> Faren will continue with IGP style since she's my up and coming sport dog. A friend who is a K9 officer is going to help me get Seger started in hard surface tracking to keep him involved without what he's allergic too bothering him. AKC has an urban tracking title we can work towards. From what I understand, it's easier for the dogs to go from IGP to air scenting but not so easy the other way. So if you are going to to IGP then start with that foundation.


That is good information, thank you.


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## mycobraracr

CeraDean said:


> Thank you for the pointers. I really appreciate it.
> 
> I tried again with more water (distilled this time) and two kibbles per reward. I also reviewed your hand pointing and tried to mimic it more effectively. Your videos really helped. He did much better this time, not distracted and nose down. He missed one kibble pile but I think that was because he saw the jackpot at the end. I'd rather the jackpot be us celebrating together so next time I don't think I'll give him a big finish. We enjoyed ourselves. Thank you again for the original suggestion by the post and then the feedback.



Steve is dead on. I'd stick to one or the other for the foundation before switching. With Winston and Cy, I'm trying to do the hard surface first, since I've never done it that way. 

Don't worry about him missing pieces of food. It's about the behavior. I have no problem with and actually like when my dogs skip over the food because they are so into the track itself. I also wouldn't jackpot the end. That can encourage them to speed up to get to that instead of focus on the track in front of them. 



LuvShepherds said:


> Why do you use your hand to guide him? Can he find the track without it? Could you use a short traffic lead rather than dragging a leash? Or is there a reason he needs to be leashed?


 My hand is there to help guide them on the track. At the beginning stages like these guys are, there is some visual help. I don't want them to pick their head up to look for the next food drop, rather I'll guide them so their head stays down. In the recent videos, I'm starting to pick my hand up since they are hunting the track on their own. Well except for Winstons last video, but he had virtually no visual aid. The food drops were mashed into the ground, and the water was drying up. 

I can't use a traffic lead, as the leash is under their leg. It's dragging right now, because I'm staying close in case they need help. As they progress, I'll be moving back on the line. That probably won't be for a while as we still have a LOT of other steps to do first.


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## mycobraracr

Jax08 said:


> A friend who is a K9 officer is going to help me get Seger started in hard surface tracking to keep him involved without what he's allergic too bothering him.


How exciting! I’d love to hear the methods he’s using to teach it when you start ?. There’s always a million ways to teach something and I like to learn all the methods I can. Helps with problem solving when things come up.


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## Jax08

mycobraracr said:


> How exciting! I’d love to hear the methods he’s using to teach it when you start ?. There’s always a million ways to teach something and I like to learn all the methods I can. Helps with problem solving when things come up.



****She

And she's one of the top SAR people in NYS as well. Years of experience in trailing and SAR. 

She had me start on dirt to change the scent from vegetation. Easy since we have a newly cut corn field behind us. Just footstep tracking, all food (I step on the food so it's buried in the dirt). I didn't see a difference in ability from the row that had a tire track and I could scuff a little more to the hard packed dirt that couldn't be kicked up. 

I have two videos of him but it's on facebook. If you send me your page, I'll shoot them to you in a message.


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## CeraDean

Steve Strom said:


> For the foundation work with him, I'd stick to one or the other.





mycobraracr said:


> I'd stick to one or the other for the foundation before switching.


I can read the writing on the wall. When two people I respect say the exact same thing, you got it! I'll stick to grass. Thanks for helping out a noob :grin2:


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## Jax08

CeraDean said:


> I can read the writing on the wall. When two people I respect say the exact same thing, you got it! I'll stick to grass. Thanks for helping out a noob :grin2:



You say you want to teach the dog to trail your child if need be? That's more SAR with air scenting. Have you talked to anyone in a SAR group or K9 officer to determine the best way to go about this?


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## CeraDean

Jax08 said:


> You say you want to teach the dog to trail your child if need be? That's more SAR with air scenting. Have you talked to anyone in a SAR group or K9 officer to determine the best way to go about this?


Thanks for your interest Jax. I do agree finding my son would be very similar to SAR techniques. I have not talked to a SAR group or K9 officer. I have been told that IGP is the best foundation work so I am starting with that and will do my first club meet bringing my dog in a few weeks (no protection tho). I am also reading 'Following Ghosts.' Honestly, I am a little worried about talking to a SAR group while being so ignorant about tracking/trailing. Talking to a K9 officer seems a stretch to me for some reason. Since getting Vandal, I feel like I've have learned a lot through working with him. He's such fun! Maybe I'm ready to talk to a SAR group/member.

How would you suggest I talk to a SAR group? I was thinking of asking if I could come be a hider at one of their training days.


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## Jax08

I would not want an IGP dog looking for me if I were lost. They haven't been taught to really use their air scenting abilities. Look for an SAR group in Michigan and contact them.


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## Jenny720

I have done formal nose work training by an instructor and then non formal trailing for fun. Often just having the dogs find the kids hiding in the woods. Quite awhile back I had contacted a local sar trainer who is active in sars work to learn more. They have lessons. My daughter was also interested in sar as well although I have no idea how she find the time for that. Some life events postponed things. Last spring I picked up my daughter early from school. I brought Luna just to ride along. I took her out and told her to find Cameron. Luna trailed or looked liked she tracked my daughter on cement from the parking lot all the way to the same door my daughter used to enter the school I noticed she did not pick up her head once and she was on a feverish mission until she reached that door handle. There were hundreds of kids also that had took the same route to get into the school hours ago. It was impressive because I have not done much scent work with her and only very informal out of the blue find the kid games. My daughter did remind me of the the skill she has yesterday also. She really is impressive. Max and Luna play off each other to and looks like they try to outdo each other. Contacting a local sar team would would be the best plan as Michelle suggested.


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## CeraDean

Thanks Jenny. That’s a great story. These dogs sure are amazing. We piggy backed a hiding session this weekend: a kid hid, Vandal found and while he was getting his down and treat, I hid and then repeat. He really liked that game. 
I think you two have great advice and I’ll reach out to a SAR team soon. Thanks for thinking of our situation ?


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## Jenny720

CeraDean said:


> Thanks Jenny. That’s a great story. These dogs sure are amazing. We piggy backed a hiding session this weekend: a kid hid, Vandal found and while he was getting his down and treat, I hid and then repeat. He really liked that game.
> I think you two have great advice and I’ll reach out to a SAR team soon. Thanks for thinking of our situation ?


They really are quite amazing. The dogs save so many lives or give closure to many families. I feel safer when is see a dog working at airports and train stations. That was the summer before last. Luna is always more with her nose glued to the ground which it looks like she has had training in tracking but not I am not sure if the breeder did any tracking work as a young pup and Max is more airscenter. I had reached out to someone local who I know is a gsd breeder /show handler who also did sar work and she gave be the number to the sars trainer who was a lot more local then I thought. Max’s breeder had puppies that went off to be cadaver dogs and I had always been interested in scent work, tracking ,trailing detection works Cat Warren has a book what the nose knows a really great book about her cadaver work. after her dog passed she planned to get to get into cadaver and sar work with her new pup. Not sure if she ever did If so I do hope she writes another book about it.

The book in original version 
https://catwarren.com/


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## mycobraracr

I decided to try Kimber on an HST today. It wasn't the easiest track for a beginner, but I figured I'd see what she could do since she already understands to follow odor. She does article searches, IPO tracking, building searches and some detection work. So she at least knows what I'm asking her to do. She did great! She checked the track a couple times, skipped one of the 90 degree corners, but followed really well. It's kinda hard to see in the video, but the water was almost completely dried up when we ran it. This one was also aged 5 minutes. I'm really happy with how she did. I really only brought her, because she's getting jealous I've been working the dutchies so much. She knows she's my number one haha.


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## Slamdunc

I have only watched the first two videos and haven't read all the comments. I teach hard surface scent discrimination tracking seminars to LE agencies. The hydrated method works really well to get dogs acclimated to hard surface. It works extremely well for converting dogs that were trained traditionally on grass and have trouble on hard surfaces. That is the first stage of our system for tracking and we use it for a month or two, then we progress to "tracking in drive." 

One thing I noticed in your video is your hand down in front of the dog and guiding or helping the dog. That is something I've seen a lot of K-9 handler's and civilians doing to help their dog out. It is something that I do not do. I have to work with handlers in some of my seminars to stop doing that. IMHO, the best thing you can do is let the dog work it out all by itself. The dog learning to problem solve, recognize odor and show a loss of track indication starts with the first hydrated track. Allow the dog to leave the track and reacquire the track on it's own. Just do not let the dog wander to far off, only a few feet then stop and wait the dog out. Watch for the head snap and the dog recognizing the odor and going back to work on it's own. 

Just like any other tracking, we can not teach a dog to track. Dogs know how to track, we just have to teach the dog to track in the style that we want. The design of the track and placement of food is the key. Your serpentine tracks are the perfect way to start. 

Also, keep in mind that as the dog progresses it does not need to track with it's nose down on hard surfaces or any surface for that matter. The best Police K-9's are more trailing dogs than tracking dogs. My dog will trail on hard surfaces with his head up and move quickly, he is extremely accurate and driven. But, he will periodically go nose to ground on sidewalks and streets. Which is a nice thing to watch but absolutely not needed to track a person across busy parking lots and down city streets.


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## Slamdunc

One other thing, we always work in very busy parking lots to start. Like a Walmart, Home Depot, etc. I want cars driving over and tons of people walking across the first tracks. We start in heavy pedestrian areas with lots of vehicle traffic. I do that from day even in the seminars I teach. The dogs learn form day 1 to ignore distractions and other odors and people. That foundation really helps when we move to the more advanced tracks.


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## mycobraracr

Slamdunc said:


> I have only watched the first two videos and haven't read all the comments. I teach hard surface scent discrimination tracking seminars to LE agencies. The hydrated method works really well to get dogs acclimated to hard surface. It works extremely well for converting dogs that were trained traditionally on grass and have trouble on hard surfaces. That is the first stage of our system for tracking and we use it for a month or two, then we progress to "tracking in drive."
> 
> One thing I noticed in your video is your hand down in front of the dog and guiding or helping the dog. That is something I've seen a lot of K-9 handler's and civilians doing to help their dog out. It is something that I do not do. I have to work with handlers in some of my seminars to stop doing that. IMHO, the best thing you can do is let the dog work it out all by itself. The dog learning to problem solve, recognize odor and show a loss of track indication starts with the first hydrated track. Allow the dog to leave the track and reacquire the track on it's own. Just do not let the dog wander to far off, only a few feet then stop and wait the dog out. Watch for the head snap and the dog recognizing the odor and going back to work on it's own.
> 
> Just like any other tracking, we can not teach a dog to track. Dogs know how to track, we just have to teach the dog to track in the style that we want. The design of the track and placement of food is the key. Your serpentine tracks are the perfect way to start.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that as the dog progresses it does not need to track with it's nose down on hard surfaces or any surface for that matter. The best Police K-9's are more trailing dogs than tracking dogs. My dog will trail on hard surfaces with his head up and move quickly, he is extremely accurate and driven. But, he will periodically go nose to ground on sidewalks and streets. Which is a nice thing to watch but absolutely not needed to track a person across busy parking lots and down city streets.





Slamdunc said:


> One other thing, we always work in very busy parking lots to start. Like a Walmart, Home Depot, etc. I want cars driving over and tons of people walking across the first tracks. We start in heavy pedestrian areas with lots of vehicle traffic. I do that from day even in the seminars I teach. The dogs learn form day 1 to ignore distractions and other odors and people. That foundation really helps when we move to the more advanced tracks.




Thanks for the input Jim! Yes the first few tracks, I had my hand in front to guide them. I've already faded that out. My goal is to keep their head down. At lest at this point with the boys. I want them to think nose deep while they're learning. I will release the rains once they get further along. Like with my Kimber tracks, she is checking the track and using some air scent. That's okay for her since she has a LOT more experience with using her nose. 

I am using various parking lots all over. I've been using the mall and various restaurants around lunch time. I have also started them on articles, and will be using those on the tracks soon. 

Thank you for the input. It's always welcome!


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## Sabis mom

@mycobraracr, thanks for starting this thread! 
The only dog I have ever really tracked with was Sabs and like everything else she did it like she was born to. Herding, tending, tracking, protection, search, detection and foot warmer. Lol. Straight out of the box, no training required. 
Since my interest is all about tracking, building searches, detection, etc. My intention was always to do the training with the next one and I have NO actual idea how to train so the information from threads like this will be invaluable. Can't think how to use the training but I like training.
And thank you to @Slamdunc for your always detailed explanations!


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## CeraDean

Slamdunc said:


> One other thing, we always work in very busy parking lots to start. Like a Walmart, Home Depot, etc. I want cars driving over and tons of people walking across the first tracks. We start in heavy pedestrian areas with lots of vehicle traffic. I do that from day even in the seminars I teach. The dogs learn form day 1 to ignore distractions and other odors and people. That foundation really helps when we move to the more advanced tracks.


That's interesting to start with distractions. You'd think it would be better to get the behavior and then proof it with distractions. 

I do have a question about 'distractions,' that word could mean active people walking around during the actual track or scents of past people mixing with your track or both. 

Which do you guys use?


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## Hineni7

While I don't do tracking per se, mine would be Trailing for SAR. But if the dog has drive to follow odor, lowing for all sorts of distractions be it odor (which are present regardless how pristine we think we made the track) or other things allows the dog to actuality tune those distractions out and not influence their capability. Often if too pristine and quiet when a new distraction is added it becomes the focal point of contention with the odor. Introducing all together the dog learns quickly what his focus should be on


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## CeraDean

Hineni7 said:


> While I don't do tracking per se, mine would be Trailing for SAR. But if the dog has drive to follow odor, lowing for all sorts of distractions be it odor (which are present regardless how pristine we think we made the track) or other things allows the dog to actuality tune those distractions out and not influence their capability. Often if too pristine and quiet when a new distraction is added it becomes the focal point of contention with the odor. Introducing all together the dog learns quickly what his focus should be on


Thank you for clarifying Hineni. Your background is very applicable to my pursuits. 

I think we've unintentionally followed this distraction idea because I do a lot of our tracking work near playgrounds while my kids play. There's lots of foot traffic, kid screams, cars parking, and squirrels darting.


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## Hineni7

Perfect! Those are the distractions and the human odor that actually aids in the progression and honesty of the dog


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## mycobraracr

These are my tracks from today. There was a decent amount of distractions today. Multiple vehicles drove through my tracks, a semi even parked on one, so we had to skip a section, and about fifteen or so people walked through them, and so on. 

Winston's was actually two tracks. At the end of the first one, he was still nose down, so I let him bring me to the second and run that. The tracks are getting much longer now. It's hard to tell in the video, but the food drops start out big, but get progressively smaller as we go. The occasional big one to keep him going. There are also bigger sections with no food. 





Cy's track was long with a lot of 90's in it. We skipped a portion because the semi parked on it, but that didn't seem to throw him off at all. The water was also drying up a bit on him. There were some bigger cracks and divots that defintely trapped the odor and took it different places. I could basically say he was going to run a crack before he did it. 





Kimber's track was by far the hardest of them all. The longest, almost zero water by the time she ran it, and less food. I give her much more freedom on the track to do what she want's since I trust her more. She has a lot of experience with her nose. There are a few times where you see her check the track or start to go off. Same thing as Cy's, she was catching the odor in the cracks and chewed up pavement. She even nose down and tracked me all the way back to my phone. This was only Kimber's second or third HST.


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## Sabis mom

The boys are looking good. And Kimber is always fun to watch. I honestly enjoy watching you work your dogs, it's always informative and I like the way you interact with them.


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## Hineni7

Jax 08 said: 
You say you want to teach the dog to trail your child if need be? That's more SAR with air scenting. Have you talked to anyone in a SAR group or K9 officer to determine the best way to go about this?

SAR trailing is not air scenting.. Yes, the dog is allowed to use air odor if the track is not offering the odor needed, especially because our mission trails may be 24hrs or more old. My IPWDA tests were 18hrs old and we were parallel to track, on track, and then a proximity alert for last 100yards was air scent due to the winds. 

We have air scent dogs as well which specifically use the air for location. UT our Trailing dogs are using ground (human) odor for the bulk of the trail. Just wanted to clarify, unless I misread


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## CeraDean

Sabis mom said:


> The boys are looking good. And Kimber is always fun to watch. I honestly enjoy watching you work your dogs, it's always informative and I like the way you interact with them.


I agree that this is a great thread. I like the side discussions and also seeing the progress of the two pups. Always a pleasure to see Kimber with you, mycobraracr



Hineni7 said:


> Jax 08 said:
> You say you want to teach the dog to trail your child if need be? That's more SAR with air scenting. Have you talked to anyone in a SAR group or K9 officer to determine the best way to go about this?
> 
> SAR trailing is not air scenting.. Yes, the dog is allowed to use air odor if the track is not offering the odor needed, especially because our mission trails may be 24hrs or more old. My IPWDA tests were 18hrs old and we were parallel to track, on track, and then a proximity alert for last 100yards was air scent due to the winds.
> 
> We have air scent dogs as well which specifically use the air for location. UT our Trailing dogs are using ground (human) odor for the bulk of the trail. Just wanted to clarify, unless I misread


Thank you for clarifying, once again. 

Gathering from this thread, it seems that in SAR the dogs leave the handler and return with results, for the majority. Whereas police K9 may often stay with their handler and have good reason to track more slowly (partner backup). Sport tracking gives a good foundation but isn't very applicable and not often in a variety of different environments. We're missing game tracking. I wonder how that is different.


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## mycobraracr

Sabis mom said:


> The boys are looking good. And Kimber is always fun to watch. I honestly enjoy watching you work your dogs, it's always informative and I like the way you interact with them.


Thanks! I'm happy with their progress. It's hard to not try and rush it. I'm only in week 2 of their tracking. I'm trying to get them out 4 times a week. I've only been twice this week so far. So I have to get them out today and tomorrow at some point. 
@Hineni7 How long does it usually take you guys to get a dog from start to finished/certified?


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## Hineni7

CaraDean said: Gathering from this thread, it seems that in SAR the dogs leave the handler and return with results, for the majority. Whereas police K9 may often stay with their handler and have good reason to track more slowly (partner backup). Sport tracking gives a good foundation but isn't very applicable and not often in a variety of different environments. We're missing game tracking. I wonder how that is different.

No.. SAR air scent dogs do leave and return to handler if they found someone and then take them to the person. SAR trailing dogs are usually on line and follow the track or the odor trail to the given person, just like a tracking dog. 

Mycobracr, it depends on discipline. I've certified 3 different Trailing dogs all only took about 7mos for trailing. Air scent 6mos..HRD about the same.. Article/evidence/GSR 3mos...HOWEVER, I train a lot! Most would say 18mos to 2yrs to certify a trailing dog. I personally think that is a long time... Air scent is still usually faster as the dog is out of odor more then in and is Jon scent specific most of the time.. 

Once a dog is solid in human odor, and if they have the drive, certifying in the other disciplines is not that difficult...although water HRD holds special nuances and difficulties that influence how odor is detected (dog can't take itself to source)...


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## Jenny720

Great thread!


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## cdwoodcox

This is a good thread. Cara Dean. I would suggest you talk to a SAR trainer before you do much work trailing. It's easier to train right originally rather than fix problems unintentionally taught training. There is good reading they can recommend also.


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## mycobraracr

Well, I did track the boys the last two days. They didn't go as I wanted. I have zero time or patience right now. So I wasn't in the best of moods, but took them out anyway. Saturday's tracks I didn't record. They were longer and multi surface. I changed the type of reward I was using. They didn't go so well. 

Yesterdays tracks were not what I was hoping for with either. The water was evaporating quick and I didin't know where the tracks went after a while. Neither of them ran their whole tracks, since I didn't know where they were, I pulled them off. There is still food on the track, but it's spaced out. Here are the videos of these tracks. I'm not happy with them at all, but's it's what I got done.


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## mycobraracr

Sorry I have updated this at all. I had some KNPV friends out from Holland for 12 days. I haven’t tracked the boys as much as I had wanted. We were training other things, but we are back at it. Here is Winston’s track from today. He’s 6mo now. I think this was his first time seeing stairs. I didn’t think about that until after the track. There is a slight breeze going from left to right on the screen. I am doing 90 degree corners, and have zero water on the corners. Not a lot of food on the track, some leading into the corner, and then on the other side of the corner to let him know he’s on it. The water dried real quick, this was at a boat ramp, so I think the ground is used to the water. 

https://youtu.be/9-sIZN9ZA9g


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## Hineni7

Jax08 said:


> IGP is very obedience based tracking. Footstep to footstep, no air scenting. It's actually unnatural for the dogs.
> 
> SAR, K9 work, AKC is based in air scenting.
> 
> Faren will continue with IGP style since she's my up and coming sport dog. A friend who is a K9 officer is going to help me get Seger started in hard surface tracking to keep him involved without what he's allergic too bothering him. AKC has an urban tracking title we can work towards. From what I understand, it's easier for the dogs to go from IGP to air scenting but not so easy the other way. So if you are going to to IGP then start with that foundation.


Actually, SAR Trailing is not mostly air scenting.. That would be air scenting which is a different discipline.. Trailing is scent specific and utilizes ground odor from the person and they are allowed to air scent if that brings them to the subject faster.. But my track overlays are consistent proof that the dogs are following the person, not always on top of the track but most definitely parallel


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