# Who has a problem with a breeder accepting Paypal as a form of payment?



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is there anything wrong with a breeder accepting Paypal as a form
of payment?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

What's the difference between that or me mailing them a certified check?

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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If prefer they did...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think anything is wrong with Paypal. the argument
came up with someone telling me when a breeder accepts
Paypal they're not screening a potential buyer correctly.



Anubis_Star said:


> What's the difference between that or me mailing them a certified check?
> 
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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

It depends. I put a deposit down on a pup from a reputable breeder about 2 months ago and it was via PayPal. 
However, the breeder is in California and I live in Florida. 
I trusted PayPal more so than mailing a check. There was a long list for males, I was #13 and I didn't want to wait a week for my check to get to them and there could be issues with mailing the check or it could get lost.
I'm sure there are also complications with Paypal but it was the best choice for us. 
We got a conformation that the paypal was sent and The breeder emailed saying thy received payment. 
I don't believe it makes them less reputable. It is a business an PayPal is a way of payment. 
It was a nice way to pay because we are so far away. 
If the breeder was closer I might have chose a different option.


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## Fade2Black (Apr 30, 2012)

I would have preferred it. My 6 month old puppy Havoc I had to pay Tracy (Bullinger Shepherds) by check. All the way from NJ to British Columbia Canada. I had no doubt my money was safe and I would get my pup. But I would have preferred PayPal. It made it a lot easier and quicker. With my Kaos (RIP) I was able to pay with PayPal......


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I don't think there's anything wrong with accepting Paypal, but I see a lot of byb/puppymill type breeders who have photos of puppies with a Paypal button next to them, so you can "buy it now", no questions asked.

My issue is not whether breeders accept Paypal or not, but whether (and where) they advertise it on their websites. To me it makes the site look commercial, and I'd wonder if the breeder is screening their buyers, or if just anyone can hit the Paypal button and order a puppy.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> i don't think anything is wrong with Paypal. the argument
> came up with someone telling me when a breeder accepts
> Paypal they're not screening a potential buyer correctly.


Is this related to the other thread? Seems like a strange thread to make when there's already one very similar. I don't think the issue was ever that they "accept" PayPal, since that would be kind of weird to have a problem with that in general, but the way certain breeders and their websites go about it. Like putting a "pay now" button next to a certain puppy's picture on a website, indicating lack of a screening process or matching of puppy to buyer based on temperament.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> My issue is not whether breeders accept Paypal or not, but whether (and where) they advertise it on their websites. To me it makes the site look commercial, and I'd wonder if the breeder is screening their buyers, or if just anyone can hit the Paypal button and order a puppy.


I agree with this.

It's not a huge deal -- it's probably not even in the top 100 things I'd think about -- but anything that smacks of "One click ordering!" for a puppy does kind of turn me off.


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## ndirishfan1975 (Jun 29, 2013)

I think it would be smart... Giving the customers options is never a bad idea. I am personally not a huge pay pal fan but that's a different discussion. 


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

ugavet2012 said:


> Is this related to the other thread? Seems like a strange thread to make when there's already one very similar. I don't think the issue was ever that they "accept" PayPal, since that would be kind of weird to have a problem with that in general, but the way certain breeders and their websites go about it. Like putting a "pay now" button next to a certain puppy's picture on a website, indicating lack of a screening process or matching of puppy to buyer based on temperament.


This is my issue with using paypal. I dont think there should be buy it now buttons and I have all together left breeders sites that accept it as a payment. For me personally I thought it was to "commercial" looking. I paid cash.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't have a problem with paypal.........it is just a way to transfer money.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ugavet2012 said:


> I don't think the issue was ever that they "accept" PayPal, since that would be kind of weird to have a problem with that in general, but the way certain breeders and their websites go about it. Like putting a "pay now" button next to a certain puppy's picture on a website, indicating lack of a screening process or matching of puppy to buyer based on temperament.


Right, that was my thought too.

It's not about Paypal or credit cards per se--it's about whether breeders screen their buyers. When I see a "Pay now" button, I automatically think (rightly or wrongly) that the breeder views puppies as a commodity to be sold to anyone with the money, no questions asked.

If I were a breeder, I wouldn't want people thinking that about me... so even though I'd glady accept Paypal as a form of deposit or payment, I wouldn't put a "pay now" button on my public website. Maybe on a private page along with a copy of the contract, that I could link buyers to once I've screened them.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> If prefer they did...


DITTO !

I surf the web looking for another male GSD. I saw one breeder who accepted PayPal. I did find it rather disturbing tho, that they had their puppies listed as a product !


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Nope to Paypal and all forms of credit cards listed on site. Smacks of commodity...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

umm, what about a check, cashiers check or cash. the
commodity issue doesn't disappear, does it?



Smithie86 said:


> Nope to Paypal and all forms of credit cards listed on site. Smacks of commodity...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so if the breeder accepts checks, cash, money orders or
cashiers checks you feel stronger about the way the
breeder screens their customers? a form of payment 
doesn't insure screening.



Freestep said:


> Right, that was my thought too.
> 
> >>>>> It's not about Paypal or credit cards per se--it's about whether breeders screen their buyers. When I see a "Pay now" button, I automatically think (rightly or wrongly) that the breeder views puppies as a commodity to be sold to anyone with the money, no questions asked.<<<<<
> 
> If I were a breeder, I wouldn't want people thinking that about me... so even though I'd glady accept Paypal as a form of deposit or payment, I wouldn't put a "pay now" button on my public website. Maybe on a private page along with a copy of the contract, that I could link buyers to once I've screened them.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

To have it listed all over the site for ease of purchase, to us, it does infer ease of marketing and purchase. Our choice not to do it. 

Others can and that is their choice. The sites I have seen it listed on usually have multiple litters, so it might be an ease of tracking for them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> so if the breeder accepts checks, cash, money orders or
> cashiers checks you feel stronger about the way the
> breeder screens their customers? a form of payment
> doesn't insure screening.


I don't care what sort of payment the breeder accepts, as long as they screen their buyers appropriately.


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## Ares God Of War (Jan 13, 2011)

I had to put down a deposit via paypal for my English Bulldog and everything turned out good!

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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

My breeder accepts paypal. We actually had several discussions on future breedings and what I was looking for as well as what our household was like before I put a deposit down for my pup. I didn't even get the address to send paypal payments until after all our talks and it was determined we'd be a good fit for the pup. THAT i'm fine with. 

When I go to a site and they have the buy it now button next to a specific puppy or they automatically have a "put a deposit down" with the button next to it, I question that breeder simply because it gives off the impression that they don't screen the buyers. THOUGH there are a couple breeders I've seen where they have the "put a deposit down" with the button next to it but they also say not to submit a deposit without talking to them first and being screened for whether they're a good fit or not. 

It's just an easy fast way to handle payments instead of waiting for payment by check to arrive.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not opposed to paypal, but I would be turned off by the 'buy it now' button


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with accepting Paypal, but I see a lot of byb/puppymill type breeders who have photos of puppies with a Paypal button next to them, so you can "buy it now", no questions asked.
> 
> My issue is not whether breeders accept Paypal or not, but whether (and where) they advertise it on their websites. To me it makes the site look commercial, and I'd wonder if the breeder is screening their buyers, or if just anyone can hit the Paypal button and order a puppy.


My feelings as well...or see the visa/MC option over and over. Easy to purchase puppies shouldn't be encouraged. If you want to discuss payment options, that should be done privately, not thru a click on the website. I agree with Sue too!


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Paypal is just a tool, like the credit card or cash or a check. I prefer Paypal because there is a smaller charge for transfer than a money order, it's secure and leaves a good paper trail, and I'm terrified of carrying or mailing large quantities of cash because I'm afraid it will get lost and I'll be out with no way of getting it back.

It's important to distinguish between 'Paypal as a method of accepting payment' and 'Paypal as an indicator of an indiscriminate puppy miller'. I'm pleased when I see a breeder I'm hoping to work with accepts Paypal because that's how I'm comfortable paying. I'd steer well away from an amazon.com-like breeder website where I can PAY NOW for my puppy and find it at the airport five days later.

Besides, if I'm a hypothetical breeder (I'd like to be some day!) and someone clicked on a "Pay by Paypal" button that I had somewhere on a site and sent me the full cost of a puppy without any introduction other than "THIS IS PAYMENT FOR MY PUPPY THANKS." do you really think my reaction is going to be "... oh, well I guess I should send them a puppy, then."

It's going to be "HECK NO. This family just blacklisted themselves."


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

I've designed websites for a few breeders. One of the breeders did not take Paypal at the time. I told him I could include a way for people to pay through PayPal on his site and he agreed.
A year later he called me and thanked me. He said everyone who purchased a puppy from him loved being able to just simply pay with PayPal.
I think it's great. Better protection for buyer and seller. You can also create invoices with all the info you need on the pup you are selling.



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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm not opposed to paypal, but I would be turned off by the 'buy it now' button


Agreed! The site should only show that they accept PayPal. Which means after careful selection they create an invoice and request money from the buyer.


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## Odin24 (Jun 29, 2007)

I show cats. Some of the cat breeders now take credit card payments and use those little card swipe things that plug in to your cell phone. Its an easier way for a buyer to make a payment and the breeder doesn't have to hope that the check clears. I don't know of any who have a 'buy now' type Paypal button on their websites though.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i didn't see Freestep's thread. there's nothing strange about
starting a thread that's already started. it happens.



doggiedad said:


> i don't think anything is wrong with Paypal. the argument
> came up with someone telling me when a breeder accepts
> Paypal they're not screening a potential buyer correctly.





ugavet2012 said:


> >>>>>> Is this related to the other thread? Seems like a strange thread to make when there's already one very similar. <<<<<
> 
> I don't think the issue was ever that they "accept" PayPal, since that would be kind of weird to have a problem with that in general, but the way certain breeders and their websites go about it. Like putting a "pay now" button next to a certain puppy's picture on a website, indicating lack of a screening process or matching of puppy to buyer based on temperament.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Personally I love being offered a variety of payment options including credit cards and PayPal.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with using paypal, some breeders just don't use it because it puts the buyer at a major advantage and the BREEDER can get scammed that way. All the buyer has to do is complain to paypal and say "Hey I never got my puppy" and they get their money back.

It is definitely more convenient, though. I've had to send money to parrot breeders in ways that put me in a totally helpless position if they decided to just take my money and run. I only felt comfortable doing that with well-known breeders because their reputation is on the line. I would absolutely prefer using a credit card or paypal over sending money because you do have a safety net that way. I think we've all seen those threads on here where something was wrong with the puppy, the person returned it, and the breeder promised they'd send them the money but basically disappeared with the puppy instead of giving them a refund.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i didn't see Freestep's thread. there's nothing strange about
> starting a thread that's already started. it happens.


I'm glad you started a new thread--it's getting more action than mine did! 

Again, I think you missed the point I was trying to make about Paypal. 

I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT have a problem with a breeder who accepts Paypal or credit cards as a form of payment or deposit. It's perfectly okay, okay?

The issue I have is with breeders ADVERTISING this fact to the general public, by putting a "Pay Now" link right on the homepage. I've explained why, over and over, and I think most people understand what I am saying.

It's a turn-off to me, and I'm not the only one, as evidenced by this thread. However, other people do not seem to have a problem with breeders putting "Pay Now" buttons on their homepage. That's the great thing about America, we can all disagree on what is right or wrong, and no one gets arrested. 

I don't like it in general when breeders have an aggressive advertising campaign. To me, if a breeder is any good, they shouldn't NEED to advertise--they should have a waiting list for puppies before they even breed a litter. Other people might disagree with me here, and that's fine. But to me, if a breeder is spending a lot of money on advertising, it implies two things to me: either they do not have a good reputation in the dog world and must launch a direct appeal to John Q. Public, or they are breeding too many litters and don't have enough buyers. Now, I could be wrong on both counts, but that is the impression it leaves with me.

In my area, there are a couple of breeders that advertise via banners at Costco. Personally, it makes me want to vomit. But it might not bother most people. I'm kind of a snob. That's why I don't breed--I couldn't even meet my own standards!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I wish my pups breeder accepted PayPal or credit cards. Instead I had to send a certified check through snail mail and have the constant fear it would get lost and I would be out a lot of money. I don't have a check book. So no way to cancel if it got lost. 

So instead, my poor breeder got the endless emails " did you get my check yet?"

But I agree. I would be turned off as well by a "pay now" button. It seems greedy and not thought out. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so lets say there's no "pay now". when you pay you are paying now
or at the moment. the only difference is there's indicator (sign, icon, etc.)
saying pay now. because the button says pay now doesn't mean you have to. 
when you read "pay now" wait a day or so and then pay. lol.



gsdsar said:


> I wish my pups breeder accepted PayPal or credit cards. Instead I had to send a certified check through snail mail and have the constant fear it would get lost and I would be out a lot of money. I don't have a check book. So no way to cancel if it got lost.
> 
> So instead, my poor breeder got the endless emails " did you get my check yet?"
> 
> ...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> so lets say there's no "pay now". when you pay you are paying now
> or at the moment. the only difference is there's indicator (sign, icon, etc.)
> saying pay now. because the button says pay now doesn't mean you have to.
> when you read "pay now" wait a day or so and then pay. lol.


Again, you're missing the point.

It's the point of ADVERTISING Paypal, Visa/MC on a website that bothers me. Screaming to buyers "LOOK how easy it is to get a puppy from us! You can even use a credit card if you think you can't afford a puppy! Here's a button where you can send us payment NOW!" 

That is what the "Pay Now" logo says to me. Others may interpret it differently. 

If I were a breeder, I'd accept Paypal. I could even accept Visa/MC, since I run a grooming business already, I could just run payment through the credit card machine for the salon. I know a lot of breeders also have businesses--grooming, boarding, training, etc--and it's no big deal for them to use the credit card machine they already have (and it's getting even easier now, with the little card swipe thingie you can put on your phone).

BUT

I would not ADVERTISE to the general public that I take Paypal or credit cards and I wouldn't put up a "Pay Now" button on my website. 

After screening my buyers and accepting them, I would tell them via private email that payment can be made that way, and provide a link to my Paypal account.

I don't think you are seeing the difference between discreetly accepting Paypal/credit from pre-screened buyers, and ADVERTISING it to the general public.

The difference is, one says to me "don't even think about paying me for a puppy until I've talked to you first", and the other says "All buyers welcome! Easy pay! Pay now and get your puppy!"

And it may or may not be the case, but that is the impression I get.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I'm glad you started a new thread--it's getting more action than mine did!
> 
> Again, I think you missed the point I was trying to make about Paypal.
> 
> ...


Great post! I agree with your point-of-view on this completely. A lot of high-volume breeders that used to sell to pet stores are now opting to sell directly to John Q. Public via the Internet. It is a problem.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I don't like it in general when breeders have an aggressive advertising campaign. To me, if a breeder is any good, they shouldn't NEED to advertise--they should have a waiting list for puppies before they even breed a litter.


Let me preface this by saying that I basically agree with all the points you're making and I also agree that indiscriminate blast advertising (stuff like putting a sign outside the WalMart parking lot, using pop-up advertisements on websites, or listing dogs on an Internet bundler/broker site) is a huge red flag.

But I don't think "marketing" is or should be a dirty word. Ruffly Speaking had a good blog post about this that occasionally gets linked on the forum; the gist of it is that if good breeders don't advertise, then the general public can't find them, and the general public will keep buying dogs from the breeders they _can_ find, who typically (as we agree) aren't very good.

I think that an important piece of the puzzle, if we're going to change that, is for us (and by "us" I mean "everybody who likes purebred dogs of any sort, doesn't like puppy mills, and wants to see standards improve") to reduce the stigma attached to thoughtful, targeted marketing. Because if we keep saying that good breeders can't do it, then good breeders _won't_ do it, and it's just going to be that much harder for Joe Q. Public to find them.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Must be a sign of the times, no?!

I wonder if this is happening more with breeders that produce multiple (4, 5, 6 a year) litters vs. the breeders that produce 1 maybe 2 litters a year?

What's wrong with the old fashion way?? Maybe in doing it that way you have time to really think things through, on both ends and it's not so instantaneously like buying that cool pair of shoes or jacket.. :shrug:


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

As long the breeder isn't allowing the buyer to purchase immediately, I don't see a problem with the payment option.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think it's even as much of a problem that they advertise but that they advertise the fact that they accept paypal.

ETA: I've seen some sites that have a small paypal button or a blurb that you can use it to send payments. Others have basically added flashing neon logos "NOW ACCEPTING PAYPAL!!" and use the ease of purchase as a selling point


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Paypal cost the seller 3%. If they don't mind picking up the tab for the cost of doing business, nothing to worry about.

I won't use them for political reasons.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> the gist of it is that if good breeders don't advertise, then the general public can't find them, and the general public will keep buying dogs from the breeders they _can_ find, who typically (as we agree) aren't very good.
> 
> I think that an important piece of the puzzle, if we're going to change that, is for us (and by "us" I mean "everybody who likes purebred dogs of any sort, doesn't like puppy mills, and wants to see standards improve") to reduce the stigma attached to thoughtful, targeted marketing. Because if we keep saying that good breeders can't do it, then good breeders _won't_ do it, and it's just going to be that much harder for Joe Q. Public to find them.


You make a good point.

Targeted advertising could be a good thing, assuming that the breeder still does all the necessary legwork to screen their buyers. I guess the problem would be reaching good, responsible puppy seekers and filtering out the riffraff, and that could be a challenge for the breeder. How would one accomplish this? The fact that we live in the age of the Internet is great; breeders who have good, informative websites can give of world of helpful information for puppy seekers, and possibly even educate JQP a little.

I suppose informational brochures in veterinary clinics, training centers, pet supply stores, etc. might not be a bad idea. Passing them out at Costco or Walmart, maybe not so much. Perhaps they could underwrite nonprofit organizations, educational/news publications, TV or radio. I myself have used my local NPR station to advertise my grooming business, and found some really excellent clients that way. The trick is finding the right demographic, and being willing to educate JQP before selling anything.

Reputable breeders have always been able to rely on word-of-mouth to the dog community, but JQP doesn't always know where to find good breeders--they tend to look in the newspaper classifieds, craigslist, the bulletin board at the feed store, etc. Those that do an Internet search on their chosen breed can be overwhelmed with crappy BYB sites and, if they're not schooled in what to look for, it's enormously confusing... especially when ten different breeders will say ten different things about the breed.

If a breeder is to advertise, I'd like them to say something along these lines:

"We are von xxxx German Shepherds. We breed for quality, not quantity, and all our breeding animals have been tested and proven for health, hips, proper structure, and temperament. If you are interested in adding another member to your family, please phone or email us to discuss whether one of our puppies would be right for you."

I would want the breeder to inform that a puppy is not a commodity, investment, or status symbol. I would want to come away with the impression that buying a puppy requires more than an easy payment, and that I should expect some questions as to my lifestyle, goals, background, family, and expectations. 

Then again, JQP who is used to picking up a puppy outside Walmart or off craigslist may be surprised and possibly put off by the "intrusion" that careful breeders would require, and would deliberately seek out a BYB that doesn't ask questions.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

That is exactly what happens Freestep. A lot of people loose interest when they see the price. More when they find out the breeder will ask them questions and even more when they find out that they probably won't be able to pick the "prettiest"pup in the photo. Forget about a spay/neuter contract. 
I don't have any problem at all with advertising. Advertising yourself is part of the way you spread your name and compile that waiting list of puppies.
It is very different than "buy now buy now"sell to anyone with cash breeder. The focus of one is on the quality of their dogs and what they have accomplished. The other focuses on making sure you know the price and telling you how many easy options you have to make a payment

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

I just bought a new pup today. I have to go to the bank and get a money order and use overnight mail for a deposit. This is 2013 I will gladly pay the 4% paypal charge so I do not have to run around like its 30 years ago.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

I really have no problem with it. It would of been alot easier when I got Jonas, if his breeder used paypal.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Freestep is on the same wavelength as I am on this.

Step one-Contact breeder.
Step two through 20-Both parties feel each other out and a decision is made to purchase a pup.
Final step-Buyer-"Oh, now that we have decided to do business, I guess you'll be wanting a deposit or payment in full, what's best for you." Breeder "Check, cash, Paypal....whatever." Buyer "Paypal?! Sweet, instant and easy." 

Then the breeder gives a PRIVATE non-advertised paypal account for funds deposit. 
If I saw a "Buy Now" button you couldn't get the idea of puppymill out of my head with a scalpel.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I guess the problem would be reaching good, responsible puppy seekers and filtering out the riffraff, and that could be a challenge for the breeder. How would one accomplish this? The fact that we live in the age of the Internet is great; breeders who have good, informative websites can give of world of helpful information for puppy seekers, and possibly even educate JQP a little.


I think you answered your own question there. 

Here is the tale of my early search for a breeder (and, incidentally, how I wound up on this board). I hope Chris Wild won't mind me talking about her website, because I think it's one of the best examples out there of how a responsible breeder can and should effectively market their dogs. (Also, I don't actually _have_ a Wildhaus dog -- or any breeder's dog -- so hopefully this won't be taken as talking up any particular breeder. I don't have their dogs! Don't take my word for any of that. I'm just talking about websites here.)

Several months back, I decided that my next dog was going to be a performance puppy sourced from a responsible breeder. I wanted a puppy who could compete at a high level in Rally and competition obedience, and who might be able to do a little Schutzhund and/or agility if things happened to work out that way. But my primary focus was and is Rally/obedience, because those are the sports I'm already active in and know that I want to pursue.

And I had a pretty good idea that I wanted a GSD, because Pongu is a GSD mix and I like a lot of things about him. So, armed with a general sense that I wanted a "working" GSD (meaning "performance," because at the time I did not know the jargon of working line vs. showline), and knowing nobody in my training club or competition circuit who runs a GSD, I hit up the almighty Google.

I don't remember my exact search query but it was probably something like "working German Shepherd breeder." As it happens, this brings up a bunch of what I now know to be good kennels on the first page of results (which is great! means the good breeders are putting up a good SEO fight against the puppy millers!), but at the time I was not aware of the existence of this forum or any particular breeder's reputation and was just going purely off the websites.

I _love_ looking at breeder websites. There are a lot of really good ones on the Web. Clean design, beautiful pictures, lots of great action shots, helpful articles, and gorgeous pedigree/puppy pages. That "world of helpful information" is very much out there, and I think good breeders are by and large doing a great job of explaining on their sites why good breeding matters and how their programs are a cut above the rest.

Even among those, though, there were several things about the Wildhaus site that I thought were particularly good:

-- right on the homepage, there's a brag list noting the dogs' recent accomplishments. This tells me a lot of things very quickly: these dogs are capable of doing many different types of sport and work, they're consistently active up to the present day, and there is a continuing demand for this breeder's puppies in solid performance/working homes.

-- the articles about different types of German Shepherds, how the puppies are raised, etc. showed a lot of knowledge about and love of the breed, and were also very informative to someone like me who was new to GSDs. In reading those articles, I could not only learn a lot about the breed, but get a sense of who the breeder was and why they were doing what they were. A genuine love for the dogs comes through on those pages. I appreciated that.

-- the links page includes a lot of very good sources on all topics ranging from food choices to vaccine protocols and sports equipment. It also has links to Suzanne Clothier and Karen Pryor, both writers/trainers for whom I have a great deal of respect. The inclusion of those links tells me that this is a person who has and wants to share knowledge about dogs, and that I'm pretty much on the same page as this breeder regarding training approaches, which I take as an encouraging sign that this is somebody I can work with. Also, if I were not already familiar with them, those links would be another helpful resource for getting started with dog-friendly training.

-- as somebody who has very little firsthand experience with Schutzhund (and none at the time that I was doing this search), the sites that tended to emphasize _exclusively_ protection sports and police dogs were a little bit of a turn-off. I wasn't looking primarily for a bitework dog. My primary goals are in other sports. Too much emphasis on pictures of flashing fangs, and few or no pictures of other things, led me to believe that perhaps those dogs were more than I could (or wanted to) handle, and that the breeder was aiming for a different market.

These things are not unique to the Wildhaus page, and lots of breeders have similar things on their sites. I'm just using that site as an example for discussion because it happened to be the first one that really clicked with me, and I think it's helpful to be able to talk about concrete examples. As another example, Blackthorn has a dog blog linked on their site, which is great (and fun for me to see where our blogrolls overlap!). A number of other breeders have blogs as well, and that is always SUPER helpful in conveying a sense of personalities, guiding philosophies, and "hey, our dogs mean more to us than money."

To the extent that I count as a "responsible puppy seeker," then, those were among the things that I specifically took as indicators that this was a breeder I wanted to work with.

Probably there are people out there in the world who would react to an info-laden site with "OMG WHAT IS ALL THIS CRAP, I JUST WANT TO BUY A DOG FOR $250." And probably some of those people would be deterred by seeing all that stuff and realizing that hey, this person probably is not just going to give me a dog for $250, no questions asked. Therefore, site design definitely acts as one filter.

All that stuff is, in some sense, "marketing." Participation on a forum like this can be "marketing." It _also_ happens to be fun and informative and helpful, and is a far cry from obnoxious blast advertising.

So that is my super long disorganized off-topic novel about that. Apologies to everyone who got carpal tunnel scrolling past it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Freestep said:


> You make a good point.
> 
> Targeted advertising could be a good thing, assuming that the breeder still does all the necessary legwork to screen their buyers. I guess the problem would be reaching good, responsible puppy seekers and filtering out the riffraff, and that could be a challenge for the breeder. How would one accomplish this?
> .


that is a problem for EVERY breeder, whether they advertise online, accept paypal or only rely on word of mouth from people who have purchased dogs from them before.

They would filter out the "bad" buyers the same way that breeders have filtered them out since we first domesticated dogs. You talk to them. You let them talk. You ask questions. You get references. You talk to them some more. 

The internet isn't going to change how a GOOD breeder screens buyers. It might mean that they ship puppies more frequently because they have a wider audience who sees their dogs but it isn't going to have an impact on HOW they sell.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> They would filter out the "bad" buyers the same way that breeders have filtered them out since we first domesticated dogs. You talk to them. You let them talk. You ask questions. You get references. You talk to them some more.


Oh, I know that, and you're absolutely right. What I meant to say is, is there a form of advertising that helps pre-filter puppy seekers a bit? 

If I were a breeder and I wanted to advertise, I could put up a banner in Costco. Now, there is a certain demographic that shops at Costco, and it's not exactly rich with responsible dog people. It's better than, say, Walmart, but I think I would want my target audience to be a bit more dog-savvy. 

So maybe I'd think about putting up a flyer at pet supply stores, veterinary clinics, or training centers, just to target people who spend money on their pets. It's not necessarily the perfect audience, but better than most. If I went for too broad an audience, I'd be spending so much time screening buyers that I wouldn't get any work done!

Of course, that assumes that there is demand for puppies. I honestly have no idea what demand is like for GSD puppies at the moment, but the reputable breeders I know don't seem to have a problem placing litters.

There's another interesting question. Would demand for well-bred dogs from reputable breeders (as opposed to bybs) skyrocket if they were to educate the public via an advertising campaign? And if so, would these breeders feel compelled to breed more litters, in order to satisfy demand? Pondering.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> What I meant to say is, is there a form of advertising that helps pre-filter puppy seekers a bit?


Kinda-sorta.

As I said somewhere in that huge ginormous post upthread, certain site designs and contents probably act as one filter.

Another way to get targeted advertising is just by social networking. This, I think, is more about the general "halo effect" that breed fans (can) have in the wider world. It isn't so much up to the breeders to educate in this regard; it's up to all the rest of us.

I'm pretty active on a couple of other message boards (yes, there are boards I spam up _even more_ than this one). The other boards are more general interest, but on them I post a lot about my life-with-dogs, and I blog about it too.

As a result of my blatherations on Facebook and other boards -- which were mostly about dogs I was fostering at the time, but not specifically aimed toward getting anyone to _adopt_ those dogs (in fact a lot of it was just me whining and moaning about various unglamorous hassles that go along with fostering) -- I somehow managed to place quite a few foster dogs with some far-flung friends. One adopter drove 20 hours each way to adopt a shelter mutt (and it was the bitey crazy high-energy one I posted about a few days ago -- _not_ a highly adoptable dog!). Another, who was a referral from friends who adopted a previous dog, bought a plane ticket to fly her dog across the country. To me, it's remarkable and touching that people were willing to undertake such hassles to adopt regular ol' shelter mutts -- but such is the power of social networking.

I've unintentionally persuaded a number of friends and relatives to get into fostering, just because I'm always blabbering on about my shelter mutts on Facebook and other corners of the Internet. I've gotten people involved in dog sports because I blabber all the time about _that_.

And since I've started blabbering about wanting a purebred performance puppy and how I've been looking for a good breeder, I now have friends who are thinking about doing that too. (In fact, on that note, if anybody knows of a good performance Tervuren breeder, please shoot me a pm! I've got a friend who might be looking for a puppy down the road...)

I'm not special in this regard, and there's nothing about my experience that can't translate to marketing good, responsible breeders' programs. Lots of other people on this board have talked about the admiration that their well-bred dogs earn in person. A lot of the general public just doesn't know much about dog sports or good purebreds or, for that matter, how easy and companionable and rewarding life with a rescue dog can be.

So... well... blabbering _works,_ is what I'm trying to get at.  I've found some wonderful, dedicated pet homes for foster dogs via blabbering. I think just about any breeder would have been happy to place a suitable dog in those homes, and I don't see any reason that they wouldn't be able to use the same type of "HEY LET ME TELL YOU ALL ABOUT MY DOG NOW I AM GOING TO TALK AND TALK AND TALK" effect to find them. Word of mouth is so powerful.

As for whether increased demand would induce good breeders to produce more litters -- that's a good question! I hope an actual breeder will share some thoughts on that, because I would really like to know too.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think that responsible breeders are going to start breeding more to "satisfy a demand". That kind of goes against what makes them a responsible breeder in the first place.

I don't look at having a web page as "advertising" in the way you are talking about. A webpage is merely a listing of dogs. You have to know what they are before you can find them. They aren't walking around putting links everywhere saying "come buy my dogs"


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## AlexLafram (Oct 17, 2020)

This is an old thread but I like PayPal 
Safe for the buyer, the seller 
I’ve backed out of deals for handbags if the seller won’t use PayPal 
Personally, if i am going to be spending 5k-10k on a vintage Chanel, I am not EMT’ing the cash, it’s not like you are going to Holt’s and they have a fool proof return process, and that is where pp helps


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