# GSD's, Mals, and Rotties?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

In another forum I belong too there was a question asked that I would like to ask here.

"In SchH, why do you think more GSD's and Mal's participate and score higher than Rotties or any other breeds?"

What are your opinions on this?

What about each breed makes one "better suited" for SchH over the other? Or would you say that all and any breed can make it as a top SchH dog?


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

as of today, I've decided to learn about ScH, so currently, I know nothing. 

But that question is easy!

GSD are better looking
They are smarter
Probably faster
And just plain badass!

these are purely my own opinions and should not be taken seriously.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

SchH was intended as a test for the GSD and overall, for most of Schutzhund's existence, they have out performed the other breeds. That is because SchH was designed to test the attributes that a GSD is supposed to have. However, a decade or so back, people started to lose their minds and started wanting the obedience to look a bit more Barnum and Bailey-like where flash and speed became the criteria and prey work was all that mattered in SchH. That is when the Malinois started to excel and is also when the people who lacked the talent to train a real GSD started to switch breeds. At some point, things will perhaps shift back to the way it used to be and while Mals will still continue to do well, GSDs will start to be recognized, once again, for the positive traits they possess. Traits that Mals just do not have and never will have.
As for Rotts, they are a carting breed and not meant for SchH. Yes, I have seen a few, ( very few ) , good ones but mostly they lack the balance necessary to do well in SchH.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> As for Rotts, they are a carting breed and not meant for SchH. Yes, I have seen a few, ( very few ) , good ones but mostly they lack the balance necessary to do well in SchH.


Could you be anymore condescending or sanctimonious?


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

^ You calm it Mr.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Just remember you are on the schutzhund form you know...lol


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:Could you be anymore condescending or sanctimonious?


Just stating it as I see it. I have not seen very many Rotts do well in SchH. Mals are able to compete with GSDs but Rotts rarely have. If the facts hurt your feelings, I'm sorry about that. It is what I said though, SchH was designed for GSDs.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Eli_Dog
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Vandal
> ...


I don't see it as either. Rotties are what they are - big burly dogs built to haul a meat cart around. 

One of Morgan's BBFs for the last 6 years has been the rott across the street. Any day of the week she can out run him, out OB him and certainly outsmart him. Never mind he's laying on the porch panting when she's just getting warmed up. Yeah he could over power her easily but he'd have to catch her first. Just my opinion.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have friends that have Rotties and it seems, for better or worse, people are breeding Rotts specifically to do schutzhund now. The two they have possess "prey/ball drive" like a Mal (almost!).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Sometimes its nice when people see things a little differently


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Eli_Dog
> ...


Jenn, this was one of my points on the other thread.

Rottie's a powerful breed do not possess the speed, are not as agile (able to run fast and tight against the blind, etc.) and their overall structure hinders them in this sport (stamina, physical structure, etc.).

I think it's great that this breed is being used in other avenues, but breeding a dog specifically for something that it wasn't "created" to do... I don't know. I like my herding dogs to herd and my carting dogs to pull. JMO.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

'Breeding specifically for something' is 'creating'. Who knows, maybe one day Rotts will be small, fast high prey monsters. Old people will be telling stories from their childhood about 'Rin-tin-tin' Rottweilers who could pull a cart and spend days just hanging out on a porch. And nobody would believe them


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I guess your right. Hahahahaha...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have trained and seen some very nice Rotts, but I agree with Anne. They are few and far between. The best Rott I ever trained with was actually from American show lines. He was fast, extremely athletic and was a super dog in all three phases. He was a rarity. Something I have always respected in the Rotts is how well they jump. When trained right they are like an anchor on both the escape and the drives, but they are slower and rarely drive through the helper on the long bite. MANY I have seen tend to bounce off of the sleeve. Some of the best Rotts I have seen over years are now long gone and only one of their handlers is still working a Rott. The others have either quit, gone to a GSD or a Mal. 

If I remember my Rott history correctly, they were originally a drover breed and are very old.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Correct - they are a herding/drover breed. They may have been used some for carting but I don't think I'd go so far as to call them a drafting breed, at least not exclusively. 

I don't do Schutzhund, so I'm going to answer this when it comes to SAR - and I have seen a few Rotties who had all the agility, nerve, drive, intelligence, and focus of a well-bred SAR GSD. In rescue, I've found them to be typically more stable than GSDs, less nervy, and less prone to SA. That said, like GSDs, the vast majority of them you see around aren't working dogs and like GSDs, a huge majority have been bred away from their actual breed standard until they are no longer physically sound. Like GSDs there exist different lines of them that really shouldn't be compared to one another or compare a byb Rottie to a well-bred working line GSD. 

I like Rotties and would consider another as a SAR dog. I have had one as a foster that I will always kick myself for placing. He was AWESOME! Wonderfully stable, athletic, incredible stamina, phenomenal toy drive. Just a very cool dog. Sigh. 

Sadly, I don't think there are as many people breeding good working Rotties as there are breeding working GSDs and it's hard to find them.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it is well known and not sanctiomonious or pompous at all to say where Rotts fall on the bell curve of schutzhund performance. It only takes some experience with the different breeds on the training field. My friends with Rotts well know this and state it often... they very much understand their breed and its characteristics. 

I see Mals predominate in other sport venues. I don't think my 
Shepherd would necessarily excel in the arenas that play more to Mal characteristics. Of course there are exceptions all around... but they are that.....exceptions.

Schutzhund was created by German Shepherd people for assessing the German Shepherd Dog breed characteristics. If the breed did not generally excell there, then someone somewhere would have missed the mark in a most strange way. 

I wonder why my Catahoula can't beat my friend's Cairn at go to ground events? Now it is a more extreme example but still the same answer..... breed characteristics is why. I suppose the looks on those terrier owners faces is pompousness when I show up? I think it only a good understanding of dogs and a venue.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I more or less agree, but Rotties are also herding dogs with a strong protective aspect and shouldn't be the oversized lumbering oafs many of them are any more than GSDs should be 100lb bundles of nerves that walk like frogs. It's not as though someone was asking about a Saint Bernard or something doing Schutzhund.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

No, they didn't ask about a St Bernard but they DID ask about SchH...not SAR or any of the other things you talked about. Now, if someone would have asked those questions, I would not have responded since I don't have any experience with them in those situations. No doubt the well bred ones are good at certain things just like all breeds are but that was not the question.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The first sch club I was in (1979), was the Allemeigher Club of Bill Alexander who owns Arale kennels and breeds Rotts and German shepherds. Bill has been breeding since 1960 and he always said that the Sch test was geared for the German Shepherd. Even though he had Bundesseigers and Klubseigers in his kennels. Have seen some nice working rotts over the years, but they have never been on average as good at Sch as the GS and now the Mal.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: No, they didn't ask about a St Bernard but they DID ask about SchH...not SAR or any of the other things you talked about. Now, if someone would have asked those questions, I would not have responded since I don't have any experience with them in those situations. No doubt the well bred ones are good at certain things just like all breeds are but that was not the question.


I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to the poster above me - just to say that GSDs and Rotties aren't as disparate as some people might assume. I don't disagree with what you posted about GSDs or the origins of the test. Jeez.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I know you weren't responding to me. Just used what you said to clarify that the question was about SchH not if Rotts are "good dogs" in other venues.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Sorry but I've seen plenty of POS GSD's over the years so saying one of the alternate breeds can't or shouldn't be tested in the schutzhund waters is pompous. Not sure how to break the news too you but the sport doesn't "belong" to the GSD. 

You might want to double check but Rotties have been titling in schutzhund about as long as any other breed to include GSDs.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The comments about SAR aren't irrelevant - they pertain to the areas in which the two venues overlap and the comments other people have made. Comments such as:


> Quote:One of Morgan's BBFs for the last 6 years has been the rott across the street. Any day of the week she can out run him, out OB him and certainly outsmart him. Never mind he's laying on the porch panting when she's just getting warmed up.





> Quote:I don't see it as either. Rotties are what they are - big burly dogs built to haul a meat cart around.





> Quote:Rottie's a powerful breed do not possess the speed, are not as agile (able to run fast and tight against the blind, etc.) and their overall structure hinders them in this sport (stamina, physical structure, etc.).





> Quote: I think it's great that this breed is being used in other avenues, but breeding a dog specifically for something that it wasn't "created" to do... I don't know. I like my herding dogs to herd and my carting dogs to pull. JMO.


And yes, I guess your statement that they're a "carting breed." That's not entirely accurate. Rotties are also a herding breed, just like GSDs. Rotties should not be slow, stupid, lacking in stamina, or lacking in agility. 

While they may not do as well in Schutzhund as GSDs, and I have no idea, I don't do Schutzhund, none of the above should be the _reason_ they don't. Both are herding breeds, both have a strong protective instinct. Both SHOULD be athletic agile dogs. (and of course both are victims of poor breeding so that many of the specimens you see running around aren't able to do the things they should.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yeah ....we have had plenty of discussions about those GSDs on here as well. You are right about that, there are plenty of dogs who don't do well in SchH but that wasn't the topic either. The fact remains, if Rotts were that good at it, we'd be seeing more of them in SchH. Maybe that will change if what Mary talked about is happening. SchH was created to test the GSD, what it has evolved into no longer does that, so, all breeds can now come take a shot at it I guess. 

Frankly, I don't care enough about the topic to argue over it or to make it quite this personal. I sure don't care which breeds compete in SchH either, doesn't make a bit of difference to me.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Nothing personal about it to me, simply trying to correct some of the misconceptions in the statements being made about Rotties as a breed that, yes, were not in the original question but became a recurring part of the discussion. I've yet to see a thread on this board where every single post pertained to and only to the original post.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay so a question I am going to pose is this, are "today's Rottie's" the ones that are not equipped for SchH and herding?

I have yet to see or hear about a Rottie herding. 

Yes there are a few Rottie's participating in SchH but the majority of the dogs doing this are GSD's, Mals and I have seen an increase in Bully breeds now participating.

Could this be along the same lines as showlined GSD's are not as "good" as working lined dogs in this venue?

I don't mean to upset anyone, I am just trying to understand as the other forum goers are saying that Rottie's do not belong in the world of SchH or herding for that matter - what the breed was "created" for originally.

I have only met 2 Rottie's in my life, 1 well bred one and the other - not so much. So my experience and knowledge of the breed is limited at best.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have Rotties herding plenty of times when herding at RottieEwe Farms in Wright, MO. I don't know how they are represented in herding overall though.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I don't see many Rottie's around here, even in my home town I have yet to see one.

I have met 1 who was pretty amazing and the other was behind a fence and lived his life out in the yard tied up.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I know at least some good/responsible and potentially working homes are getting away from them because they're so hard to own due to BSL and breed profiling. When we had one, it was next to impossible to find a place to live, insurance etc. German Shepherds are on a lot of the same lists but Rotties have it even worse. Not sure how much of a factor it is for people but it definitely gives me pause when I've considered getting another one.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In 2003 I was in the Upper Buck Sch Club in Pa. The founders of the Club, Mary Beth and Billy Talley were Rottie breeders. Mary Beth titled their then male to Sch 3 FH and competed in a Nationals with him that required her to get a 270 score to qualify. The father of this dog Hutch was an imported German dog that was both Klubseiger and Bunddesseiger in Germany at the regional level. (He was a seiger in conformation and in sch performance). This was one of the sweetest Sch dog I have ever met from any breed. Billy took him to the ADRK Nationals and placed second or third. He had two sons in our club that got titled.
So I have definitely seen and trained with some outstanding Rotts as recently as this decade. Are they as geared to do Sch as a German shepherd that the test was created for....I personally don't think so. But there have been many outstanding ones. Dean Calderon used to be a world competitor Rottie handler back in the day.
On a side note, we had three Rotts participate in our SDA trial in Nov. I was somewhat surprised that these dogs didn't seem to have the speed and agility of dogs I have known in the past. Could be just these particular dog...I am not sure...Just my take.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Eli_Dog... so saying one of the alternate breeds can't or shouldn't be tested in the schutzhund waters is pompous. Not sure how to break the news too you but the sport doesn't "belong" to the GSD.


I must be more tired than I thought because I'm not seeing where anyone made these claims.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are a couple of rotties in the club where I train. Both are still in the beginning stages~the handlers don't consistantly come to train. 
One wouldn't out-they've been working on it since I started going(though I've only seen them there a couple few times since Sept), but last week he looked much better, even did the H & B for the first time. The light bulb may have went on for him!
The other one, I didn't see do any protection work, he is so social, and just wants to visit everyone! The owner is working on focus and obedience for the time being. Both are gorgeous and in great condition. 
I don't see agileness or speed in their structure, compared to a mal or GSD.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

We have a SchH3 Rottie in our club. He is a great dog and a real tracking machine!!!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The Rotts are a working breed. I have heard long time handlers/helpers lament the loss of many working qualities in too many of them. I don't follow them myself to know what lines are producing what characteristics. Maybe folks on the Rottie list would know as they are their bailiwick.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A while back I posted on a Rottweiler forum asking for opinions and experiences between titling GSDs and Rotts in SchH. Since it was a Rottweiler forum, I expected some breed bias towards the Rotties. I was surprised when reply after reply recommended a GSD instead. 
They pretty much said the same thing as what is being discussed here: there are some breeders (but very few) that still work and breed to maintain working ability in the Rottweilers, and those dogs are still very hard to come by - most, like Anne was saying, just aren't balanced enough - not enough drive, too much defensiveness and seriousness. 

So basically the Rottweiler people were saying: if you want a Rottweiler, get a Rottweiler. If you want to do Schutzhund, get a GSD!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lucia, that is very interesting.

When speaking to a Rottie breeder on another forum (she does OB and Conformation) she said pretty much the same thing, if someone wants a SchH dog, that a GSD or Mal would be a better breed to do it with.


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