# Information on a TN Breeder



## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Ok, so Im new here and am hoping to find some info on a breeder we are considering purchasing from in TN. I havent found a hometown forum so Im posting here (please let me know if this isnt the right place).

This will not be our first GSD, however it will be the first one from a breeder. We are looking at a place in Dickson TN called Twin Oaks and havent been able to find to much on them in terms of reputation and breed quality. 

Iv been to see the current litter and they had both the bitch and stud there (both of whom were beautiful and very well behav). I was put a little off as they didnt breed them at the location we saw them at, however we will be going to the breeding location on our next visit. Sorry to be long winded, but Iv had family screwed by a dishonest breeder before and I dont want to run into that problem twice. Any input you guys have would be greatly appreciated.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Do you have a kennel name? Hard to give an opinion without any information.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Is this them? 
Twin Oaks Kennel


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Emoore said:


> Is this them?


Yes. That is them. So far they seem to be pretty decent, however I havent been able to find to much background info for them. I know there is a much less reputable breeder by the same name a few years ago that was a few hours north of us in Kentucky so Im worried that they may have moved and set up shop down here.


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Do you have a kennel name? Hard to give an opinion without any information.


Sorry think that got lost in the original post. The breeder is called twin oaks. Another poster put the link up. We are looking at their current litter.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Not anyone that I would consider for a puppy, but that all depends on what you are specifically looking for and want to do with your puppy.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Never heard of them. And they are in the area.

Check with Jeff Lund at Schneiden Fels in Franklin KY. He breeds, he shows, he trains and titles. Great temperament on the dogs.


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Look at Sequoyah too!


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

mnm said:


> Not anyone that I would consider for a puppy, but that all depends on what you are specifically looking for and want to do with your puppy.


Im not worried about temperament to so much as health and ethics. Met both parents and they seem to be in pretty good condition. The kennel offers a 2 year replacement policy (not that we would return a sick dog, but its a confidence builder) for health problems. My leading cause for hesitancy is that they dont seem to be well known despite having several breeding dogs. It just seems weird not having some sort of history online somewhere.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I have no knowledge of this breeder. This is based purely on the website. They appear to be breeding German Show Line dogs, but they don't look like they do anything with their dogs besides breed them. They don't look like they do any showing or titling or working. From the outside looking in, it looks like they bought some nice dogs to breed and sell puppies. The reason this worries me is because German Show line dogs, even more so than other lines, all go back to the same few dogs. The 5-generation pedigrees look different, but if you go back 7 or 8 generations, it's all the same names over and over and over again. I worry about people breeding dogs with that much genetic overlap when they're not doing any form of testing for temperament and soundness beyond the obligatory OFA's. 

I think the reason they're not well-known is because they don't work or compete in anything. Most breeders that are well-known are getting out and going to clubs and events and getting their dogs out there and subjecting them to the scrutiny of other people who know the breed.


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Emoore said:


> I have no knowledge of this breeder. This is based purely on the website. They appear to be breeding German Show Line dogs, but they don't look like they do anything with their dogs besides breed them. They don't look like they do any showing or titling or working. From the outside looking in, it looks like they bought some nice dogs to breed and sell puppies. The reason this worries me is because German Show line dogs, even more so than other lines, all go back to the same few dogs. The 5-generation pedigrees look different, but if you go back 7 or 8 generations, it's all the same names over and over and over again. I worry about people breeding dogs with that much genetic overlap when they're not doing any form of testing for temperament and soundness beyond the obligatory OFA's.
> 
> I think the reason they're not well-known is because they don't work or compete in anything. Most breeders that are well-known are getting out and going to clubs and events and getting their dogs out there and subjecting them to the scrutiny of other people who know the breed.


Are there typically certain specific breed defects? I know shepherds tend to have hip problems and spine fusing, but is there more out there than that?

Their site links to the dogs pedigrees, which go back 7 generations. Here are the links.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...36-kassandra-vom-lenard&p=long-generation&d=7

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2183398-bash-vom-haus-omega&p=long-generation&d=7

Google translates the sites, but I still have no idea what Im looking at in terms of breed specific strengths and weaknesses.


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

GsD87 said:


> Are there typically certain specific breed defects? I know shepherds tend to have hip problems and spine fusing, but is there more out there than that?
> 
> Their site links to the dogs pedigrees, which go back 7 generations. Here are the links.
> 
> ...


 Second Breed

7 generation long pedigree for Kassandra Vom Lenard


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GsD87 said:


> Are there typically certain specific breed defects? I know shepherds tend to have hip problems and spine fusing, but is there more out there than that?
> .


Hip and elbow dysplasia. Degenerative Myelopathy. Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. Fear Aggression. Bad nerves. Titling/working is designed to flush out the last two, as you often won't see the signs in a dog that is kept on its own property.

I know you say you aren't worried about temperament, but I'd much rather have a dog with hip problems than fear aggression.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Hip and elbow dysplasia. Degenerative Myelopathy. Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. Fear Aggression. Bad nerves. Titling/working is designed to flush out the last two, as you often won't see the signs in a dog that is kept on its own property.
> 
> I know you say you aren't worried about temperament, but I'd much rather have a dog with hip problems than fear aggression.


This!

Check out this information put together by people from this site: How to Select a Breeder - German Shepherd Guide

Moms


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Emoore said:


> Hip and elbow dysplasia. Degenerative Myelopathy. Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. Fear Aggression. Bad nerves. Titling/working is designed to flush out the last two, as you often won't see the signs in a dog that is kept on its own property.
> 
> I know you say you aren't worried about temperament, but I'd much rather have a dog with hip problems than fear aggression.


So I know it sounds weird to not worry about temperment, but its the one issue Iv dealt with before. Our first GSD was a rescue and had serious kennel and fear aggression. Took a couple of years and some serious training but hes now the most friendly and sociable creature on earth. Its the medical stuff that cant be treated that Im more concerned about.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GsD87 said:


> So I know it sounds weird to not worry about temperment, but its the one issue Iv dealt with before. Our first GSD was a rescue and had serious kennel and fear aggression. Took a couple of years and some serious training but hes now the most friendly and sociable creature on earth. Its the medical stuff that cant be treated that Im more concerned about.


Yeah, but if you're going to buy a dog from a breeder you should think temperament just as much as health. Otherwise you may as well save your money and rescue another dog. Have you gone to this breeder's place and had any contact with their dogs?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And Nashville DOg training club is near them for AKC OB, Utility, Agility and showing. There are a lot of opportunities for nosework and barnhunt in the area.

They do not compete in anything, nor do they get out and about...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GsD87 said:


> So I know it sounds weird to not worry about temperment, but its the one issue Iv dealt with before. Our first GSD was a rescue and had serious kennel and fear aggression. Took a couple of years and some serious training but hes now the most friendly and sociable creature on earth. Its the medical stuff that cant be treated that Im more concerned about.





Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, but if you're going to buy a dog from a breeder you should think temperament just as much as health. Otherwise you may as well save your money and rescue another dog.


Steve is so right. I have a rescue who has poor nerves and is reactive. I can't express what a joy it is to have a dog with no issues. Can I deal with reactivity? Yes. But to go somewhere with my dog that doesn't have it and be relaxed instead of stressed and no guard..well...it just makes all the difference in my relationship with my dog.


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## GsD87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, but if you're going to buy a dog from a breeder you should think temperament just as much as health. Otherwise you may as well save your money and rescue another dog. Have you gone to this breeder's place and had any contact with their dogs?


We met the bitch and stud dogs and they were both very well behaved. Just to make sure the personalities worked we brought our dog to the meeting. Both the parents had no issues with him and didnt show any signs of aggression or skiddishness.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well behaved on their own territory...take them away from the norm and how are they? Can they deal with stress or pressure in the outside world? The breeder should be investing in training, not just breeding, to prove they have goals and an actual breeding program, not just breeding to make puppie$. 
I would do a bit more research before committing to this particular breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You mentioned you want a breeder with ethics. Well, breeding without testing their breeding stock (show ratings, titles, breed surveys, health) is not ethical. There's no evidence they aren't doing this, but there is no evidence they are. It's unethical to breed without concern for temperament, whether the buyers care or not. A red flag to me is that they are basically saying all their studs are interchangeably good. Well, a knowledgeable, ethical breeder would have a lot more to say about the pros and cons and individual temperament of each dog than encouraging buyers to pick at random. I used to be fairly involved in German show line dogs and attended several events in or near TN and KY and I've never heard of this breeder or seen dogs from them. I would pass, there are respected, ethical breeders that offer the same type of dog in this same area. JMHO


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Lies....

We live about an hour from there and have never seen them at any working (IPO, AKC, nosework) or show events.

They might be another breeder that just buys titled stock and breeds = commodity broker :-(


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