# Would you buy a puppy without papers?



## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

Hello,

I bought a puppy for a moderate sum of money, from what I hope is a reputable breeder. However, they're not registered, pink sheets or AKC. More than one person from this forum vouched for his dogs so I still feel it shouldn't be a deal breaker. The parents have pink sheets but the puppies were born in the U.S so they don't qualify for either pink sheets or AKC papers according to him. He breeds European dogs only. Furthermore, we didn't need to sign any contract or anything like that.

He has a history of training police dogs, not one single bad review that I could find, tens of positive ones (which I don't 100% trust), and he seems to be a presentable and knowledgeable man. He sends pictures every now and then, and I really do feel that he is a good breeder and trainer, but it is not easy for me to trust someone with this much money and even more importantly, trust that I'm getting a good puppy that is worth spending my time when she might not be purebred (not probable considering the pictures), and might have bad behavioural problems, health problems, or both.

Should I be running the other way? Is this plain bad practice or perfectly fine? Am I being too skeptical?

Best Regards,
Ispiro.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Try to meet the parent dogs. Papers do not make the dog; it just tells you that both parents were purebreds, not the quality. I don't care about papers but go by the breeder's dogs, references and the parents of the potential pup.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Is he proving a pedigree?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A dog with papers from the SV, pink papers your calling them, qualifies for AKC registration, which is the kennel club in the US, that is recognized. So if he has pink papers on both sire and dam, then there are a couple of hurdles he needs to jump to get AKC papers:

They need the pink papers 
They need photos of the side, and from the front
They need a DNA sample/profile (neither expensive or invasive)
If the bitch was bred there they need a signed statement by the owners.

And then the dogs get full AKC registration. It isn't that difficult to make this happen. For them not to bother with it concerns me. 

No, papers do not make the dog, but buying a dog without papers, means that you are totally going by the word of mouth of the breeder. And it makes me wonder why they do not or cannot register with the AKC. To be ineligible to register dogs wit the AKC, you have to suspended by them. To get suspended by them, you either have to have failed miserably on an inspection, or have lied on dog registrations, or something like that. 

If you are breeding dogs in the US, getting them registered through the AKC is a given. If you can't jump over those hoops, then breeding dogs is probably beyond your capabilities as well. If the dog is not registrateable, or you have no right to register the dog, dog was stolen or sold on a limited registration, or without papers, etc, then breeding the dog is unethical, and buying such a dog is supporting someone who is unethical. 

As a rule, if someone is breeding here in the states and cannot provide AKC registration, I would walk away.

For every rule, there are exceptions. If you have to work on the exceptions, then you have to decide whether or not you trust this guy. 

The papers do not make the dog. Many pet owners, PB dog owners, never bother to send their papers in. If they aren't breeding or showing, or competing in AKC events, they do not actually need the papers. 

There is always the possibility that when we purchase a dog without papers, that we are enabling or rewarding people who have either stolen a dog, is using a rescued dog, or has gotten a dog for breeding under false pretenses. Getting AKC registration for a dog is actually too easy. Why a breeder would choose not to is really a mystery.


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

He told me that he is capable of registering them with AKC but that he wants to stay "European" dogs only and so intentionally avoids American papers because he believes it would reflect an unwanted image. 

He doesn't normally breed his own dogs. He has a reputation of importing dogs and training them and selling them as adults, rarely having puppies for sale. The mom was imported pregnant. He offered to let me see the mom but I can't make it. I will see her on pickup day.

I actually had forgotten that he's not a breeder exactly and imports and trains adult dogs and sells them with their pink sheets that you can use for AKC registration. Nevermind guys. I think this clears it up.

Can I delete threads? Oops.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ispiro said:


> He told me that he is capable of registering them with AKC but that he wants to stay "European" dogs only and so intentionally avoids American papers because he believes it would reflect an unwanted image.


No idea who this guy is, but that reasoning sounds like BS to me. Registering dogs of European origin with the AKC doesn't make them any less European.


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No idea who this guy is, but that reasoning sounds like BShttp://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/editor/separator.gif.pagespeed.ce.N1Un5b6Ha5.gif to me. Registering dogs of European origin with the AKC doesn't make them any less European.


He normally only sells the dog as a trained adult with European papers. He's not a breeder and he imported the mom pregnant. I don't believe he has access to the father. Also he was upfront about all this from the beginning which is why I think I'm going to trust him. 

I'll tell you guys how it goes next week.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Yes, I would buy a dog without papers...from an SPCA or a registered rescue group.

There is not a chance I would pay money to a breeder who did not register the puppy. If they can't do something as simple as fill out and send in paperwork what else are they skipping?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Ispiro said:


> *He told me that he is capable of registering them with AKC but that he wants to stay "European" dogs only and so intentionally avoids American papers because he believes it would reflect an unwanted image.
> *



This is complete and total BS. Selling dogs without papers with shady excuses is what perpetuates a bad image. Selling pink-papered adults, fine. But THIS excuse for not registering puppies is a BIG red flag to me (and this isn't being upfront, it's giving excuses for cutting corners). To me it sounds like the dog equivalent of "name dropping," he's throwing out "European" out there because it'll impress people, even though it means absolutely nothing in most cases.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

for me it would depend. If I wasn't concerned in the registration aspect of things, like is it going to 'affect' what I want to do with this puppy, and if I had A WHOLE LOTTA TRUST in this person, I 'might'..

However, if I was spending a LARGE amount of money, I would be rather leery.

Can you PM me the name of the trainer?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would buy a mixed breed without papers. 

I would not buy a purebred dog without papers, you can't truly know if the dog is purebred if it's not registered or has papers. I also like to know my dog's pedigree, health issues, etc.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Would I? Short answer yes, but there are a lot of variables come with that. For me the breed would matter, also the reasoning for why they don't have papers.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends, if he really does sell police dogs, I'm not surprised he doesn't bother registering puppies, especially puppies of imports. That can be more difficult to do (sire needs DNA with AKC, etc) so why waste the time and money when the police don't care about papers or registrations?

I would personally not buy a German Shepherd without papers, but that's because I enjoy showing my GSDs (working lines too) and participating in many events, like breed surveys, that require registration.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

No I would not. Even if I trusted this person , I want the ability/freedom to enter AKC/CKC events should I choose.

When it comes to the price , I am fine with paying a good price for what I think is a good dog. I guess I feel that price is indicative of the years invested by the breeder to get where they are with their program. I'm not so sure I would feel confident in that program if it came from an imported pregnant female. 

Was the female his to start and he sent her out to be bred?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

It would depend on the breeder and their reasoning for me. "I don't register because I want to be more European" is just not a valid reason.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Not unless i had a very close relationship with the person, and i knew the dogs and exactly what i was getting.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think even when it comes to IPO I wouldnt. If I put in 3 years of work, training, and titling...and the dog ended up breedworthy, it would be pretty upsetting not to be able to breed a great dog because it doesn't have a pedigree.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

martemchik said:


> I think even when it comes to IPO I wouldnt. If I put in 3 years of work, training, and titling...and the dog ended up breedworthy, it would be pretty upsetting not to be able to breed a great dog because it doesn't have a pedigree.


Very good point!


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

If I were simply looking for a pet... yes.

If I were looking for a specific purebred...no.

I have had many mutts in my life that were fantastic pets and several purebreds that were papered. Depends on what my intentions would be for the dog. I love them all...


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> I would buy a mixed breed without papers.
> 
> I would not buy a purebred dog without papers, you can't truly know if the dog is purebred if it's not registered or has papers. I also like to know my dog's pedigree, health issues, etc.


The dogs are purebred judging by how they look at 2 months. I don't think I should be worried about if they are purebred. I'm only worried about the quality of care and attention spent on the puppy, and that they aren't being treated badly or anything like that. I can buy purebred puppies with papers from pet stores.



Liesje said:


> Depends, if he really does sell police dogs, I'm not surprised he doesn't bother registering puppies, especially puppies of imports. That can be more difficult to do (sire needs DNA with AKC, etc) so why waste the time and money when the police don't care about papers or registrations?
> 
> I would personally not buy a German Shepherd without papers, but that's because I enjoy showing my GSDs (working lines too) and participating in many events, like breed surveys, that require registration.


He only has access to the mother not the sire. I don't plan on showing or breeding. I would like to train her mostly just basic commands.



Saphire said:


> No I would not. Even if I trusted this person , I want the ability/freedom to enter AKC/CKC events should I choose.
> 
> When it comes to the price , I am fine with paying a good price for what I think is a good dog. I guess I feel that price is indicative of the years invested by the breeder to get where they are with their program. I'm not so sure I would feel confident in that program if it came from an imported pregnant female.
> 
> Was the female his to start and he sent her out to be bred?


I don't believe the female was his to start but I'm sure this is not the first time he used this specific sire.



JakodaCD OA said:


> for me it would depend. If I wasn't concerned in the registration aspect of things, like is it going to 'affect' what I want to do with this puppy, and if I had A WHOLE LOTTA TRUST in this person, I 'might'..
> 
> However, if I was spending a LARGE amount of money, I would be rather leery.
> 
> Can you PM me the name of the trainer?


It is a large amount of money for me, but it seems to be within the common price range for GSD puppies from good breeders. The papers won't affect what I want to do with this puppy. I don't plan to breed or show or anything like that. It is just that every post or article about selecting the right breeder says they should have papers. 

*That said, since you are a moderator, would it be possible for you to edit my main post and add a part saying that he doesn't own the sire, the sire is not even in the U.S and that he imported the dam pregnant?*

I feel this might persuade people that are advising against this to reconsider.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Ispiro said:


> The dogs are purebred judging by how they look at 2 months. I don't think I should be worried about if they are purebred. I'm only worried about the quality of care and attention spent on the puppy, and that they aren't being treated badly or anything like that. I can buy purebred puppies with papers from pet stores.


Puppies can still look purebred and have a Siberian Husky as a grandparent, I am not saying that's the case with the puppies that you are looking at. I am just saying that without a pedigree and paperwork, you don't really know for sure if they are purebred or not.


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> Puppies can still look purebred and have a Siberian Husky as a grandparent, I am not saying that's the case with the puppies that you are looking at. I am just saying that without a pedigree and paperwork, you don't really know for sure if they are purebred or not.


He showed me the parents pedigree but no paperwork. He has a good reputation. I really doubt he would be selling mixed puppies.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It sounds like you've made your decision and are quite comfortable buying from him so I'm not sure what your looking to find out.

Several have shared their opinion but in the end it's what you are comfortable with.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I dunno, I guess if you know 100% that you'll never do those things it's not that big of a deal if this guy is as great as he says he is. The weird thing is, no one in sport would want these pups for the reason I listed, so they're basically either police puppies or they're pet puppies which is a really big jump IMO. If the puppies were that great, and he had this amazing reputation, getting them registered would not only open up a bigger money market for him (for a very small cost) and also get his puppies in the hands of people that would then give him an even bigger name.

I'm always very suspicious of people that sell "police dogs." It's a pretty hard thing to track, and very easy to use as a marketing tool since people would have a hard time fact checking the statements.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Ispiro said:


> He showed me the parents pedigree but no paperwork.* He has a good reputation*. *I really doubt he would be selling mixed puppies*.


So why are you questioning the pup? I am not trying to be a smart alec here but sounds like you have already made your decision.... do you trust this breeder? or not?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If I were buying a purebred dog, I'd want certification proving the litter is purebred. However, any Fido can slip the fence and do the deed. 

If I were going into competition, I'd want papers. 

If I were getting a companion, I wouldn't be concerned about paperwork. 

There is a variable regarding the breed itself. Without proper documentation you can not record historical information for future generations. A breeder who purposely breeds a litter without taking that into consideration, (IMO) isn't reputable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> If I were buying a purebred dog, I'd want certification proving the litter is purebred. However, any Fido can slip the fence and do the deed.
> 
> If I were going into competition, I'd want papers.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

Saphire said:


> It sounds like you've made your decision and are quite comfortable buying from him so I'm not sure what your looking to find out.
> 
> Several have shared their opinion but in the end it's what you are comfortable with.


The big problem was not just if the puppy is purebred. Like I said, it is possible to buy purebred AKC registered puppies from a lot of places. However, the first 2 months of a puppy's life is so important that a purebred puppy would still have behaviour problems, and I would have a considerably less pleasant time raising it if he has been mistreated. I am trying to ask if because of the lack of papers, that means I should assume that the trainer is to be avoided, regardless of their reputation and work with the police, etc. Or, perhaps, I should I still go through with this considering that he has several members from this forum vouching for him, testimonials on his website, he has (what seems to be) a valid reason to not have papers (the sire is not in the U.S, not his, not AKC registered and he imported the dam pregnant).



My2shepherds said:


> So why are you questioning the pup? I am not trying to be a smart alec here but sounds like you have already made your decision.... do you trust this breeder? or not?


I'm not questioning it's breed, only the quality of it. For example, should I assume because there's no papers, that the puppy's parents aren't even who he says they are? Should I assume that he treats them badly because he doesn't register his dogs (which is expected of most reputable breeders)? Are there any questions that I should ask him to help me gauge the quality of the pups?

I hope this clears up some confusion about my intentions with this thread.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lisl has no papers. She was bred from imports for K9 work as her siblings prove. Also, litters before hers have mostly gone on to police or other work. This breeder has been supplying K9 GSD's for around 20 years now and he knows his stuff.

I was introduced to the breeder from the K9 officer (my neighbor across the street) who also has a partner from this breeder, after the K9 officer finding out the type of GSD I wanted.

I have no doubt of her pedigree and the breeder has no reason to lie. I've seen the photos of her siblings at work and the officers who take care of them.

Lisl is the best GSD I've ever owned and I'd buy another GSD from this breeder without question.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

The fact they have no papers has no bearing on whether the pups will be mistreated. Two very separate concerns.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm not questioning it's breed, only the quality of it.* For example, should I assume because there's no papers, that the puppy's parents aren't even who he says they are? Should I assume that he treats them badly because he doesn't register his dogs (which is expected of most reputable breeders)?* Are there any questions that I should ask him to help me gauge the quality of the pups?

I hope this clears up some confusion about my intentions with this thread.[/QUOTE]

That falls to your faith in the breeder and your trust in his honesty. I would assume without papers to trace a lineage and discern the personality/traits of other progeny that there is no absolute method to discover what you need. Talk to the breeder try to get the references and contact information from previous owners of his line and make a decision on that. If that is not good enough I would recommend you go with a breeder that has a paper trail for his lines and therefore eliminate the doubts you are having. IMO even the best of breeders can have an off the hook pup now and again, just less likely to be a prominant issue in a "proper" breeder of a good line. Also, I have known people who have really good lines with papers and treat the dogs like crap. Perhaps you should consider a closer prospect to assure yourself with your own eyes just what type of breeder you are dealing with? 

As far as the questions you should ask.... anyone can lie.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Since I am privvy to the breeder/trainer, I say YES, I would. Of course I wouldn't IF I was going to go into high competative sport, because I'd want that registration, but if I were looking even to do, rally/obed/tracking, getting an ILP/PAL on the dog would be fine by me.

Not sure what I'd 'pay' for a dog with no reg papers, but that's up to the OP..

I WOULD want a copy of the pedigree tho, and probably show my "go to" person and see what they thought..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No idea who this guy is, but that reasoning sounds like BS to me. Registering dogs of European origin with the AKC doesn't make them any less European.


I think I know who this guy is and he's reputable. His dogs are quality. 

He trains and sells police dogs and protection dogs. These buyers have no need for papers. I didn't realize his reasoning was that it would be portraying them as something they aren't. That lacks common sense. A pedigree is a pedigree.

I know two of his dogs. The one does not have papers and I thought it was a high price for a dog with no papers. I'm not sure about the other. However, both dogs are very nice.

OP - please PM me the name. I'm pretty sure I know who this is.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I personally wouldn't. I had no papers for one of my dogs for a while before the issue was finally resolved, and it would have really sucked to not be able to compete with her in the venues that I wanted because she wasn't "purebred" on paper. 

Maybe if I 100% knew I would never do any competitive purebred sport, then I would do it. I wouldn't want to spend a lot on a dog with no papers though..


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I think I know who this guy is and he's reputable. His dogs are quality.
> 
> He trains and sells police dogs and protection dogs. These buyers have no need for papers. I didn't realize his reasoning was that it would be portraying them as something they aren't. That lacks common sense. A pedigree is a pedigree.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of someone who is definitely not reputable....did the OP state where they are located? Now I'm curious!!


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

Alright guys I have decided to go through with it. Thanks for the help and advice. I will tell you how it goes soon!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and we want pictures of the little pooper!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your going through with it. I wouldn't. Because I do like to do some performance events. PAL/ILP isn't good enough for me because it requires the dog to be spayed or neutered. And I often show at 1 year or under. So it would be a no-go.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sue, maybe the OP doesn't want to do performance events, and maybe they plan to spay/neuter so that' doesn't matter either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> sue, maybe the OP doesn't want to do performance events, and maybe they plan to spay/neuter so that' doesn't matter either.


Right, Diane, that is why I qualified that "I wouldn't." When you mentioned the PAL being ok, you didn't mention that the dog would have to be altered. A lot of current thought is to alter after the dog has reached sexual maturity, or, better yet, when it is fully mature, or even not at all. I just wanted to point out that PAL requires the dog to be altered. If that isn't an issue, than that would be fine. And, if they aren't going to do any performance events, there is no point in bothering with a PAL.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

In my opinion, Papers are only good if you want to breed them. My boy was not papered. Only because he was given to our family for free. But both parents were both purebred.


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

Only hiccup for me is dropping a large sum of money on a dog with no papers that you're going to have as a companion, no competition or work. Seems like a waste of resources...both your money and the dog's assumed breeding. You may have a very frustrated dog on your hands if all you're planning to do is basic commands.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

This one is easy.....NO....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just figure that if the dog is purebred, that some breeder, somewhere got screwed if someone is selling the dog's pups without papers. 

Maybe the dog's grand-dam sold the pup on a limited registration, to prevent it from being used as a breeding dog. Or maybe because it had a fault. Maybe it was stolen from someone. Maybe someone had no right to the dog because they failed to pay for it. 

That's why I wouldn't pay for a dog without papers. Papers are so easy to obtain. Buy a dog with breeding rights if you want to breed them, and do it right. It's like Question 1, does the dog have full registration? If not, then no, don't breed her. 

Yes, there are oopses. When we accept it and condone it with our pocket books, everyone who deliberately breeds dogs they do not have full registration on, need only say "Whoops!" and all is well in the world.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Can't litters born in the US from FCI registered sire and dam be registered with the FCI through the FCPR?


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Nope. No papers = free for me.


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## Kiki42 (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm wondering how the OP feels about their decision. I purchased a dog through a similar situation (wonder if it was the same source) and I could not be happier with the outcome. I knew that temperament and drive were the most important factors for me. I wanted a working dog, with the right kind of disposition to do a specific type of job, and so I went with someone who understood working dogs and with a reputation for training some very impressive police K9s. I was paying for the stability and drive and not everyone wants to compete- he found me a dog that is perfect for my purpose and I'm satisfied that I paid for her worth. 

By all means you need to be responsible in selecting someone who you feel you can trust and who you know will be accessible if something does go wrong (don't just buy a puppy from the back of someone's truck), but I don't think the dog should be devalued if they are the right dog for the right purpose from someone with a good reputation to back up their offers. I trust what I can see far more than what is written on a piece of paper.


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

Kiki42 said:


> I'm wondering how the OP feels about their decision. I purchased a dog through a similar situation (wonder if it was the same source) and I could not be happier with the outcome. I knew that temperament and drive were the most important factors for me. I wanted a working dog, with the right kind of disposition to do a specific type of job, and so I went with someone who understood working dogs and with a reputation for training some very impressive police K9s. I was paying for the stability and drive and not everyone wants to compete- he found me a dog that is perfect for my purpose and I'm satisfied that I paid for her worth.
> 
> By all means you need to be responsible in selecting someone who you feel you can trust and who you know will be accessible if something does go wrong (don't just buy a puppy from the back of someone's truck), but I don't think the dog should be devalued if they are the right dog for the right purpose from someone with a good reputation to back up their offers. I trust what I can see far more than what is written on a piece of paper.


It's been a month now but definitely no regrets. One thing I should not is she is a little fearful of other dogs.

I have pictures! Day 1, Day 7, Day 21, Day 30, Bonus pic

I hope nobody is upset over bumping thread. I thought maybe more people are interested in how it went.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she is adorable! glad you are having a good experience with her

As for the little fearful of other dogs, not unnormal, she is small, the other dogs may be intimidating to her,,my suggestion, find someone with a very neutral dog or maybe a puppy? and get together for some socializing time


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> she is adorable! glad you are having a good experience with her
> 
> As for the little fearful of other dogs, not unnormal, she is small, the other dogs may be intimidating to her,,my suggestion, find someone with a very neutral dog or maybe a puppy? and get together for some socializing time


We're enrolled in PetSmart puppy classes. She barks at the other dogs or nips at their face sometimes. I keep her sitting until she is calm before I let her go to the other puppies because I wouldn't want the other puppies to be scared either. It ends up with her sitting barking at the other dogs and other owners avoid her.  There's a big one year gentle giant that puts up with her but I can tell he's getting annoyed with her.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sometimes a 'pack' of puppies/dogs can be quite overwhelming to a puppy, I personally, don't like the free for alls some puppy classes allow because again, can be overwhelming. 

Good luck tho, are you near the breeder? Maybe he can help you out with socializing as well.


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## Ispiro (Sep 22, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> sometimes a 'pack' of puppies/dogs can be quite overwhelming to a puppy, I personally, don't like the free for alls some puppy classes allow because again, can be overwhelming.
> 
> Good luck tho, are you near the breeder? Maybe he can help you out with socializing as well.


Not next to the breeder, no  Maybe I should try to find more dog owners in Worcester.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Puppies go through many stages during growth.. There are times they are very aware of their surroundings and thus, more reactive... I would keep taking her places and socializing her (cautious of over stimulating her, but building her confidence) and definitely see if I could find a puppy playmate... She is adorable  congratulations!


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