# Puppy Kindergarden? This one too strict?



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Petsmart only had one pup in the class time I wanted so I signed up for First Friends PK. They raise, sell and compete German Shep so I thought this would be ideal.

My breeder said just find a place at this age that kept the learning light and focused on socialization.

The class size is 10 pups, large agility type room. For the first week we focus on the clicker, sit in front and come around and sit on the left? 
I asked if they use the prong collar. She said no (phew) maybe by week 5. (yikes) that would make Cooper 16 weeks.

Am I in too deep? Cooper is laid back and easy going but WILL be a large dog and I DO want to be on top of things but I also believe intimidation does not produce well rounded dogs.

Thoughts? I will read the course book and see whatelse worries me.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

My puppy K had heeling and all the basic commands. Some lenghty heeling and stuff.

No prong collars. That's definately too young. Maybe she was saying she'd train YOU on them for future use? I dunno.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Prong collars are a no no in puppy k.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Puppies are little learning sponges. It doesn't sound like it is too much if it is positive, fun and rewarding for the puppy. 

No need for prongs for a puppy. Sounds like your trainer is pretty flexible on the issue. Just say no







.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

no prong, no prong. my puppy classes were light and fun. there was 4 puppies in the class. there was clicker training going on. we didn't do any of the clicker training. i'm not a fan of it. we were there for the socalizing. it was at our vets office so they did everything. mocks examinations, they would ride the exam table up and down. the exam table is electric and it goes all the way down to the floor and up to waist high. bubble wrap was on the floor in one of the rooms and they had to walk across it. the humanes liked that part also. there were cats there that would come up to the puppies. there was a tunnel in front of one of the doors that puppies had to walk through to go into another room. nail clipping, mouth exams, etc. it was a great class. also by it being at the vets office i didn't have to go there when he wasn't being treated. i always take my dogs to the vet when their not being treated so they don't associate the vets office as a place of discomfort. we go there and vet would just pet them and give them treats and maybe just rub here hands over him or look is mouth or something. now when go to vet it's fun time.get alot of socializing in with people, dogs, cats, the woods, the city, car rides etc. expose them to as much as you can. good luck and stay on this site. these people really know dogs. they also really about the GSD. good luck!!!!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

how old is your dog? my dog didn't do any real training untill he 4 months. he house broken, knew his name and was comfortable with his collar and crate. check around and see if he's to young for formal training?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Too young for prong... YES. Too young for positive inductive formal training... NO. I don't like formal healing at this age, but that is a personal preference for the dog I want to develop. Sit, down, recall, recall, recall, recall (get how important that one is?), focus, etc is quite appropriate to teach positively and the perfect time for a trainer to work with you as well.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadhow old is your dog? my dog didn't do any real training untill he 4 months. he house broken, knew his name and was comfortable with his collar and crate. check around and see if he's to young for formal training?


I don't think hes too young for it. He needs the socialization and before 4 months is key to that socialization.

The basics were taught good in puppy K but when we did heeling it was just hit or miss. If your dog didn't get it, it was okay because he's a puppy. It was all for socilization and seeing other dogs and new environments for Puppy K.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks for the responce. I read the course handbook and it di not mention the prong so maybe I miss heard the lady. Also the handbook was stressing positives so I feel better. One ting they wanted us to work on (Iwill not) is the suborninance roll. Pinning the puppy down for x amount of time so the pup KNOWS you have physical dominance over him. PLEASE! I have done it once but I hope I have the balls to refuse the exercise inclass. I am not known for my backbone but I am pumping myself up. At this point disagreeing with one exercise is not worth cancelling.

Also they insist on Bordetella for all the pups? I have to run to the vets today and get that done.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Great. Another class that teaches the alpha roll. My opinion is that I would not work with this class unless you are 100% prepared to say no and not do certain things the instructor is asking. My Spidey sense is tingling. Something tells me this will be bad.


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## KTM450SX (Dec 28, 2007)

What is the alpha roll? Is that when you pin the pup on his side until he calms down? I have been doing that when he attacks my feet or he will not stop biting my pants/feet. Is that bad? The only other thing I have been able to do is tell him Bubba SIT!, and he will Sit as thats the only trick he seems to know right now and he gets a treat for it.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KTM450SXWhat is the alpha roll? Is that when you pin the pup on his side until he calms down? I have been doing that when he attacks my feet or he will not stop biting my pants/feet. Is that bad? The only other thing I have been able to do is tell him Bubba SIT!, and he will Sit as thats the only trick he seems to know right now and he gets a treat for it.


I have to do the same when he bites constantly. This is my last resort after trying to redirect or yelp but usually always ends up in me holding him away from me until he stops biting. I let him go, he bites again, I hold him again. Repeat and rinse about 5 times before he gives up. Nothing else I can do.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

An alpha roll is when you pin a dog on it's back or side to dominate them and "show them who's boss". It's a great way to get bit with some dogs, and a great way to inhibit the crap out of puppies. 

When you puppy bites your feet redirect him to a toy that is safe for him to bite. If he is not interested in it, make prey movements with it (like a rabbit would make). Once he bites that praise him.


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## KTM450SX (Dec 28, 2007)

I have tried that giving him a toy, he will sit there growling at my foot while he eats my shoe, squeaking his toy and bouncing it in front of him does nothing. I tried a new thing today I poked my finger in his side (not hard) when he was going to town on my foot and he lost focus of my shoe so I said SIT! and then he did and i gave him a treat.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

That's called flanking, and it's painful. Just my opinion. My focus with puppies is to exercise and train to tire out the mind and body. If the pup can then relax and settle in, great. If not, that is what I have a crate for, and this is coming from someone with a working line high high drive dog. I want my puppy to be a puppy. Nothing more.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Keep in mind that when a wolf pins another animal on its back, the wolf is saying "I Will Kill You." Then he usually does. 

That's what the Alpha Roll teaches your pup about you, how trustyworthy you are, and about your relationship.


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## KTM450SX (Dec 28, 2007)

Hmm ok thanks.. I'll keep trying the toy thing, sometimes he is just obessed with latching onto my feet. Normally he does it when playing fetch he will get his toy start running back to me, half way he drops the toy and goes for my feet.
Silly puppy!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My brother was taking Tori to puppy classes while I was taking Heidi. They got Tori when she was nine weeks old from me. She was an outgoing little pup. They missed week one of puppy at ten weeks. by week four they were talking special collars and alpha rolls with the trainer. They missed week six and gave me Tori back. 

I am glad I got her back. The poor thing smelled like a smoke stack. They said she was defiant, didn't get along with their seven year old bitch, was too interested in the cats, and was deliberately peeing in the house. 

She hasn't had an accident in my house since I got her back. She is not defiant, not even at sixteen months old. She is more afraid of some people than any of my other dogs.

Was this because of alpha rolls? I do not know. I do not think they put a prong on her. I have once or twice, but generally do not need it. I have not needed to put a prong on a dog that was less than 10 or 12 months old. 

And she does not get along with any of my other dogs except her father. 

Positive puppy training is the only way to go.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: mjb03Thanks for the responce. I read the course handbook and it di not mention the prong so maybe I miss heard the lady. Also the handbook was stressing positives so I feel better. One ting they wanted us to work on (Iwill not) is the suborninance roll. Pinning the puppy down for x amount of time so the pup KNOWS you have physical dominance over him. PLEASE! I have done it once but I hope I have the balls to refuse the exercise inclass. I am not known for my backbone but I am pumping myself up. At this point disagreeing with one exercise is not worth cancelling.


I would find a different class to take. If they are teaching the alpha roll then you can be sure they will be teaching other coercive techniques that are not healthy for your relationship with your puppy. See if you can find a socialization class with some positive, reward-based training or a clicker class. 

I trained my first gsd following the advice of the Monks of New Skete (this was 20 years ago). It was all about control and dominance. One of the most valuable lessons I learned about training puppies was from that very dog. When I got Chama I used the same techniques. Chama was a very soft dog so I didn't need to be as coercive with her but when she turned about 4 months old her prey drive kicked in and if she saw a bunny or squirrel she would fly over my fence and take off. One day I was running through the neighborhood chasing and calling her and Massie was right behind me. When Chama came back (as she always did) I was so angry that I immediately alpha rolled her and started screaming at her. *Massie stepped in between us and physically backed me off.* She did not growl or bark at me, she simply pushed me away from Chama. I understood immediately that she was telling me that Chama was just a pup and that I needed to treat her with respect and kindness and not with dominance and anger. 

Since then I have completely changed my approach to and attitude about training. And my relationship with my dogs has vastly improved. 

Your opinion will not be valued in this class. Find another one.


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## KTM450SX (Dec 28, 2007)

Moved post


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

KTM450SX--

You need to start your own thread or join in one about biting (I think there's a biting one going right now).


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## KTM450SX (Dec 28, 2007)

Sorry I'll move it.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Folks there is a difference between an alpha roll and a subordinance exercise. I would think that the exercise in this class is not a forced roll where you dominate the dog but instead an exercise where you cradle the puppy on its back in your lap and stroke it til it quiets, praise and release. 

There is nothing wrong with that and I have done this with every dog I have had. This is simply a handling exercise not necessarily a dominance exercise. It goes hand in hand with foot handling, mouth handling etc. It simply tells the pup you are the guy in charge and you need to be able to handle him when you say so. If done correctly it is very gentle and calming not domineering. If done incorrectly it it is an alpha roll.

Give it a chance sounds like a decent class to me. If the handling is too rough you best develop your back bone, stand up for your pup by refusing and leaving. Then you call and request (politely) a prorated refund. 

Not being ugly but if you have a GSD you need to work on your backbone.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I have to agree. I teach puppy classes and basic classes. I have never used an Alpha Roll and dont think it is a smart thing to do. However in my puppy classes I do teach accepting restraint.

So many dogs do not like to be physically restrained but there are times when it is necessary. So I teach things like holding a puppy between your knees while you are kneeling/puppy facing same direction you are and restraining the puppy by having your right hand on their chest and left hand in the collar scratching their neck. This works wonderfully to have a puppy learn to be held back this way and to accept being restrained. I also do the elevating the front feet and clicking/rewarding for relaxed offered positions (down).

Teaching restraint is a good thing! A true alpha roll is not. Please do not be afraid to talk to the trainer either before or after class, or if they are like me, I welcome calls from students at any reasonable waking hour! Call and talk to her/him about your questions and concerns. I know if it were me, I would greatly appreciate it! After alll, I would know then how involved a student I have


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Kathy and Achielles,

Both restraining and cradling the puppy on your lap are night and day different than pinning the pup on it's back or side while taking a dominant posture over it - which I know that both of you know. I just want to clarify for the OP and other newbies that are on this thread. Calmly cradling/restraining with a neutral posture is not an exercise of dominance, and therefore do not inhibit puppies. Both of those are necessary in order to provide basic care (grooming, nail trimming, and health checks) and if you don't start early it gets very tough later. Much easier to restrain a 15 pound puppy without conflict than a 55 pound puppy. 

Virtually any class is better than no class (no pun intended), just go in with a clear cut idea of what you are and in turn are not willing to do or have done to your puppy. Prong and alpha rolls, NO. Positive inductive training in order to shape the behavior you want to see from the puppy is just fine.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

To clarify, I don't do the alpha roll. When he gets out of hand I just do a sit/stay and hold him until he settles. Much like the cradling puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In puppy classes and later classes, I am on the floor between excersizes providing belly rubs while the pup/adult is lying there happy as anything. 

Training should be fun and positive, not only for the dog, but for you as well. You should see a difference in your behavior and the dog's or pup's behavior. You should be having fun, building the bond between yourself and the dog, and building confidence in the dog (and maybe in yourself). I agree with increasing your backbone. There will come a time when what is asked is beyond the ability of your dog. You know your dog. At that time, you need to adjust the excersize to fit your dog. 

I believe our dogs do much better when they are set up to succeed and praised accordingly. There is a trend toward setting the dog up to fail and punishing. I do not like that, at all. So if I am in a class and my dog breaks a stay that seemed too long, or does not perform a task that seemed a bit much, I never punish. I go backwards and break it all up. 

Maybe a more demanding trainer would compete with my dogs and win quicker, but that is not what it is all about for me. I like to place, I love to get the blue, but if we aren't having a good time, pack it up.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i know they need socializing before 4 months. i was talking about sitting and clicker training. at 11 weeks what are they going to learn? in my puppy class it was walking on bubble wrap, the lawn, tile floors, mock exams by the vet, meeting cats, walking through those agility tunnels, people playing with the pups, pups playing with the pups, etc. walking steps and i'm probably forgetting things. i thought it was good. bark at you later.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

At 11 weeks, they can learn to start learning their behavior can make you do things! Start training them to think. That is one thing I love about clicker training. With shpaing and capturing, the dog is actively thinking about what they can do to get what they want (reward of some kind). This builds the foundation later on for being able to teach your dog anything you want or need them to do. Whether it means just walking nicely on a leash or turning lights on or off for you or picking up things you have dropped or finding your kids when they wander off. The relationship between the two of you is built and behaviors are started that will aid in living with your puppy, especially when he reaches adolescense!

The socialization and handleing and everything else is very important. The start of learning how to think with you during training is just as important though IMO.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i was never a fan of the clicker and lots of good things have come with this method. socialization i believe is everything. all encounters all situations. i enjoy introducing them to all sorts of stuff. i think i'm getting socialzed also.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

OK I had my first clas so I know what is meant by the subordience exercise. They put the dog on its side. Hold firmly by its neck and haunches, If the pup is quiet say good pup and pet, stroke, examin feet. He sugests practicing this exercise EVERYWHERE. Park, vet, home and encourage others to stroke. 

I did not do the exercise but did not confront the trainer until I have facts on why it is wrong. I would not go back but everything else was positive. Lots of dogs. Cooper turned out to be shy to other pups. Cooper did GREAT with the other exercises. Sit, sit on left side, and down stay. Funny Cooper also was uncomfortable with sithing between my legs for long periods. (seems like an easy exersice).

Anyway I want to figure out, other than my gut is telling me, what is wrong with the subordience exercise an email to see if I continue class and skip this part.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know. I have never held my dogs down. In fact when I am teaching the down stay and they pop up, I generally tell them down, and stay again. If they pop up again people generally put a foot on the lead short enough for the dog to be seriously uncomfortable standing. But the dog chooses this. 

On the other hand, forcing the dog to accept restraint as described here does not seem like an awful thing to do. I am guessing that the purpose is to enforce your position as leader. 

I will be interested in other people's views.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

There are great ways to train that don't involve force - and you can get a really nice, snappy "down" without restraining the dog, too. (Selzer - I disagree - people don't "generally put a foot on the lead" to train the down. -- at least not this person and the person she learned from. Some people train that way - but not people in general. Gosh, I've done obedience training starting over 20 years ago and don't recall ever using this.) There are times when you may need to restrain your dog but if I met with any resistance on this exercise, I'd just let it go.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quoteeople don't "generally put a foot on the lead" to train the down. -- at least not this person and the person she learned from. Some people train that way


Some places certainly do-do this.. But not right from the get go.. There is a process that is followed or I should say a progression that is built upon from week to week..

What I hate about dog training is people can be so NARROW minded.. They don't know how to mix the training up and use pieces from ALL the different methods to THEIR benefit.. They'd rather bash certain techniques or say how horrible it is.. and it should ONLY be done this way or that.. To me that's not a good trainer!

Unfortunately some people don't know how to look outside of their box to better themselves or their dogs!!


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I sent an email to the trainer to see if I can continue with the class without doing the alpha roll. Like G-burg said I did think there were many positives to the class but I know it is not the only one in town. I am going to check out the humane society. It starts next week.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

mjb - You can refuse to do any exercise that you are uncomfortable with. Keep that in mind and you will feel a lot better about whatever class you are in.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, you are paying the bill, you can choose what is right for your dog. If you have a real jerk, power minded trainer that will not accept this, then you are better off without them. 

Middleofnowhere, the foot on the lead has been used in almost every class I have been to with probably ten different trainers, so it is not as unthinkable as you seem to think. 

Once the dog is down and keeps popping up, you place your foot on the lead and the dog finally accepts that it is more comfortable to lie down then to be standing. 

I do not know if I would just ignore a dog that I told to stay. Maybe a puppy in puppy kindergarten, but if you train something and the dog will not listen, then the dog is making decisions he has no business making. You told the dog "STAY." It could save his life someday. 

We first train the dog in a positive way (usually with treats) to get them in the down position. Then when they will down on command, we add the stay. This concept is not so hard as he has probably been doing sit stays for a while. Anyway, the length of the stay is increased slowly and the distance of the stay is increased slowly. By this point you tell the dog what you want once and if he does not do it you help him. 

Using the foot on the leash is not a "leash pop" nor is it punishment. It is simply making it less desireable for the dog to do his own thing than what you want. 

Begging, nagging, and asking the dog does a lot more damage. Allowing a dog to not follow a direct command is not good leadership.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Selzer,

The key word in your statements about this way of training the down and in turn the down stay is DOG, not puppy. In addition, as you added in your last post, even with a dog you teach the exercise positively. Correction has it's place in training, after a dog UNDERSTANDS 100% what is expected. It is impossible for a puppy to completely understand what is expected in one class. Even when a puppy understands, there is plenty of time to add corrections to proof training once the pup is old enough so that a correction will not negatively impact their development. I feel the same way about the alpha roll. Why in the world would you want to make your puppy cower??? I for one have raised different puppies in different ways. My first GSD pup was a male and I trained him using compulsion from day one. It hurt his development, and any time through the rest of his life that I gave him an OB command his body posture would change. Head down unenthusiastic compliance was what I got. With my female, she is fired up to do any exercises. Loves to heel, sits and downs instantaneously and is happy to do it. Recall is so fast if the ground is soft she'll tear it up. You cannot get that from compulsion.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Why in the world would you want to make your puppy cower???


How are you making the dog/puppy cower by simply putting your foot on the leash?

Since I work in a training facility, I get to see first hand the effects of dog training.. Not that that means anything special.. And where I train it's more of a balanced approach, positive and negative..

But I think the dogs/puppies handle the training MUCH better than their owners. They are the ones who make matters worse, by putting too many human emotions into it, not working with the dogs/puppies on a regular basis.. They keep the dogs in a gray state/area..


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I was specifically referencing the alpha roll, which was stated in the sentence prior to the one you quoted. 

I am all for balanced... with adults and young adults. I am all about positive with puppies. I just believe it's not neccessary yet. I used to think differently, but proof is in the puddin' so to speak. I want a young dog to happily hit the deck on a platz with bright eyes, tail up and wagging, loaded cocked and ready for the next command. I cannot get that picture if I have to step on a leash to teach or use compulsion to reinforce a command taught to a puppy (with the possible exception of recall since this can get the pup killed). An adult that has been taught an exercise positively deciding to give me the paw when I give a command is a completely different matter. 

For the people that feel that the only way they can handle a GSD is by dominating the crap out of them as puppies with alpha rolls and lots of compulsion in my opinion need to get a different breed.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What you get with forced downs or holding a dog down with the lead is a reluctant, unhappy down. I saw this in the ring a lot. Train by "modified clicker" - that is wait for a volunteered response, name it & praise it, and you'll get a much more enthusiastic drop. Work it right and you'll get a down-stay too.

Zeus - the only breed I'd recommend for compulsion is the "stuffed" one.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> Zeus - the only breed I'd recommend for compulsion is the "stuffed" one.


Compulsion has it's place after a behavior has been learned in certain exercises, but I was not suggesting that other breeds should be beat on. I was saying that if someone felt that since the GSD is such a powerful breed with drive that they could only handle one by alpha rolling puppies and compulsion that they needed to get an easier dog to handle.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

O.K I heard back from the trainer. He was incredible nice and did not mind me not doing the exercise. He did point out it is not meant for discipline but trust. Once the pup learns to stay and relax on his side then it becomes a handy exercise for medicating ears or trimming nails. He again said he NEVER does it as a punishment but so the dog learns to trust you. Sounds good but it sure looked like the old fasion force em down alpha roll to me.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Michelle,

Good news. You obviously have this under control. Sorry this thread that you started went in different directions. Good luck training your little guy, and most of all have fun with him. He's only a puppy for so long and it passes too quickly.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: O.K I heard back from the trainer. He was incredible nice and did not mind me not doing the exercise. He did point out it is not meant for discipline but trust. Once the pup learns to stay and relax on his side then it becomes a handy exercise for medicating ears or trimming nails. He again said he NEVER does it as a punishment but so the dog learns to trust you. Sounds good but it sure looked like the old fasion force em down alpha roll to me.



That's good news!

I'm glad you took the time to correspond with this trainer.. Now you have a better understanding of the exercise.. 

Good luck with your pup and his training!!


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

OK but now I am wondering is this a ligitamate exercise? When I saw it being done there was a lot of howling puppies but he swears by it.
John- the thread has been very informative.
Thanks all.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would prefer to teach a down and roll over command myself. No need to force the pup. The philosophy is different.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

The command is not a forced down. Actually Cooper already knows that. It is a lay on your side for x amount of time. Small amount of time ,treat ect and expand until the dog will relax for whatever time you decide. It would be a helpful exercise for doing his feet or anything.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

If it is an exercise that is done in a positive way, meaning calm happy voice and you end up petting the pup with long slow soothing strokes and then feeling ears, paws, teeth, etc. then sure. If it's just put the pup on his side and hold him there around the neck then no. Personally I like "cradling" a dog. While the pup is standing, have one hand in front of him on his chest and gently stroke him on his side in a soothing way. It is an exercise we do in Schutzhund during protection training that is meant to calm a dog down and clear their heads while you take a dominant position over the dog. It is also called taking a dog "into your arms". I work this as an obedience exercise from a very young age, and once learned is a great way to calm a puppy down as well as cut nails, check ears and teeth, or anything else that you need to do.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Michelle,

I don't see the exercise they way it is being done as a "dominance" exercise or alpha roll. You are putting your dog on its side and stroking him and hadling him til he calms. This is a legitimate exercise as long as it does not get carried away to forcing a frightened pup. Just be gentle. You might try modifying it just a little bit and sit down and cradle Cooper next to your leg or on your lap to do this. If done correctly this is a very gentle method of teaching your pup to accept handling and restraint and maintain trust in his leader.

As for the down exercise. Stepping on the leash and applying upward pressure to down the dog is a legitiamte method to teach the down. I would not use it on a puppy. I would not use it until I had tried other positive methods like luring or shaping first. There are some dogs that just don't get it until you apply some compulsion to it. Try the gentle way first by capturing his down. He will lay down on his own and when you see him doig it mark the behavior with a happy "YES!" or clicker and give a treat.

BTW... food for thought for all trainers out there. ANY obedience that we ask of our dog is compulsion. Why- because we are affecting the dogs behaivor and asking them to do something they would not normally do. I think the key is using cooperative compulsion.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I also have seen the down done with standing on the leash but more as a reminder of something already learnt not initial teaching. Cooper's favorite exercise is the down. He is so laid back he enjoys just laying there and getting treats. He is a caracter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have never seen it done where you pull up on the lead to get the dog down. Only standing on the lead to keep the dog down.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Do many send their pups off to train? One of the assistants think I should leave Cooper for a month. Take a training class with him once a month during that time. Isn't this awful young? She is worried Cooper is too bonded to me. She claims by sending him while he is young I will not have to untrain bad habits.

The worst thing about this is my husband kind of likes the idea. 

He had a shepherd that he sent off for a year. It was a fantastic dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

no way.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

You could have said much more, but anyone that is stupid enough to leave there new GSD for a month should never own one. 

I am in an ill mood tonight, but what is this poster thinking.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

No.

I would never (even if I wasn't a trainer) leave a dog somewhere to be trained by someone else. Boarding training is how many trainers make good money. Poor Cooper would be in a kennel and worked with once or twice a day and not get any of the wonderful experiences he will get with you. Do not give them your puppy or your hard earned cash for them to train them. Afterall, you won't be there and will not see what methods are used to train him to be that "trained" puppy.

Read everything you can get your hands on regarding dog learning theory, operant conditioning, compulsion training, dog behavior & origin. Read books and watch videos. Talk to people here (and if you have a kennel club, yeah even them too). Gess what, learn everything yourself and not only Cooper but your other current dogs and future dogs will be all the better for it! A bad habit is not a big deal (well depending on the habit). You can learn how to prevent habits from forming and you can train new ones. Don't let "bad habits" be a reason for sending him away.

GSDs are dogs that bond! Of course Cooper is bonded to you! Seperation anxiety is not healthy, but a bonded dog is! Even if it is SA, at his age you should easily be able to turn things around to the positive. Again, not a good excuse for boarding training.

As for your DH... tough, it is just laziness on his part. Of course he wants someone else to do the work. My DH free time would be multiplied exponentially (sp?) if I had sent the dogs off for training rather than learning and doing it all myself! Tell him to get involved with training rather than tuning out.

Good luck!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWMichelle,
> 
> 
> BTW... food for thought for all trainers out there. ANY obedience that we ask of our dog is compulsion. Why- because we are affecting the dogs behaivor and asking them to do something they would not normally do.


Uhh, what you smokin' tonight Kathy? Good try but I ain't gonna let it fly.

Basically, in positive training, you work with behaviors the dog does naturally and reward what you want. Luring isn't forcing, rewarding isn't forcing -- so No I will not let you define it as compulsion. I can't remember the term that, was it George Orwell in 1984?, came up with something or other speak. That's where definitions are twisted around so that the meaning of words is messed up. So, no, Kathy, stop it.








Good try but I ain't gonna let it fly.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm addressing multiple posters with this reply. 

1. Do not send your puppy out to be trained. Also, there is no such thing as your puppy being too bonded to you. Your main goal in life in regards to your puppy currently is to make him think that everything good in life comes directly from you. I am not saying that every "send away" trainer uses questionable methods, but when your income depends on showing quick results in training dogs the temptation to train using almost pure compulsion is what I worry about. I just will not ever trust anyone else with the care of my dogs. It's not like they can tell you what happened.

2. I think Kathy was referring to the end result of training with an adult dog. Once all the positive training is done we are asking our dogs to comply with our wishes. Again, compulsion is a valid tool in proofing.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Thank you so much for the reassurances.
First I didn't want to do it because I couldn't see missing out on all that time with him. Also I do not think he has SA. We are careful to leave him alone several times a day and he stays quietly in his crate.
When the trainer was at the stables trying to give me pointers on keeping Cooper safe from the horses I think she was frustrated that while handling Cooper, he kept looking to me.

On the positive note she did give me some training exercises to work on to teach him the horses are not big toys.

At first I was intimidated having Cooper. Being my first GSD and wanting to "get it right" led me to listen and read everything. The more I am with him I realize a pup is a pup and if I stick with my instincts and basic common sence I will be fine.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDIf it is an exercise that is done in a positive way, meaning calm happy voice and you end up petting the pup with long slow soothing strokes and then feeling ears, paws, teeth, etc. then sure. If it's just put the pup on his side and hold him there around the neck then no. Personally I like "cradling" a dog. While the pup is standing, have one hand in front of him on his chest and gently stroke him on his side in a soothing way. It is an exercise we do in Schutzhund during protection training that is meant to calm a dog down and clear their heads while you take a dominant position over the dog. It is also called taking a dog "into your arms". I work this as an obedience exercise from a very young age, and once learned is a great way to calm a puppy down as well as cut nails, check ears and teeth, or anything else that you need to do.


Actually John, I don't think the mindset is to "take a dominant" posture over the dog. Actually, if you are taking a "dominant" position over the dog I don't think it is going to have a calming affect on the dog. As you stated, the purpose of cradling the dog is to let it unload and be calm after the bitework so dominating IMHO is not the correct mindset. 

Why would you want to be standing over the dog in a dominant position if you want the dog to be calm?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Chris,

When you cradle a dog in the SchH sense you are absolutely taking a dominant position over your dog, which is exactly why many puppies fight it at first. This is also where you see issues when there is conflict between dog and handler (two people that you and I trained with had these issues). Once the dog understands that the handler will not take the prey from them and that they have to allow the handler to cradle them, then it can be a calming exercise. The stance you are taking (leaning over the dog) is dominant to the dog regardless of what is running through your head at the time of the exercise. I do not ever think about dominating my dogs while cradling them, but to them I am in a dominant position. Bernard Flinks works this as an obedience exercise by saying "into my arms" to the dog, which is slightly different than how we did our cradling (working up the leash for a cradle) during foundation work with Dave.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Michelle,

You're very welcome, and you're doing great with him. The only way you get a puppy to focus on you and basically ignore others that are trying to handle them is by working with them a lot and in a positive manner. That does not just happen by "hanging out" with them. From your sig I see you have a boxer. If your boxer is a well behaved member of your family, you easily have the ability to do the same with Cooper. From the boxers I have seen and been around, they are fun dogs but much more stubborn than most GSD's and take more to train.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDChris,
> 
> When you cradle a dog in the SchH sense you are absolutely taking a dominant position over your dog, which is exactly why many puppies fight it at first. This is also where you see issues when there is conflict between dog and handler (two people that you and I trained with had these issues). Once the dog understands that the handler will not take the prey from them and that they have to allow the handler to cradle them, then it can be a calming exercise. The stance you are taking (leaning over the dog) is dominant to the dog regardless of what is running through your head at the time of the exercise. I do not ever think about dominating my dogs while cradling them, but to them I am in a dominant position. Bernard Flinks works this as an obedience exercise by saying "into my arms" to the dog, which is slightly different than how we did our cradling (working up the leash for a cradle) during foundation work with Dave.


Have to disagree with you there John. Hopefully by the time that you get to the point that your dog is holding and being cradled with a sleeve you have the trust established that you aren't going to steal the sleeve from them. I think the key here is trust, not dominance. The whole point of "into my arms" is to have your dog relax and trust you. Of course your dog should see you as the alpha leader and look to you for approval but to use the word "dominate" I think is perhaps a poor choice of a word. 


As far as the two people that we trained with that had "possession" problems with their dogs, Bernard Flinks advised (and I have it on tape to prove it) one owner to stick an e-collar on their then 9 month old dog to resolve it. Trust me, it created and exacerbated the problem ten fold. Since then handler has been training with a real professional and has been given very simple advice on how this could have been handled without creating such conflict.

I am not sure exactly who you are referring to when you mention a second owner??


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

John
You have been great. I do think the boxer was/is more challenging. Cooper just instinctively wants to please.

As far as standing over, it is a dominence position period. Dominence does not have to be a dirty word. For the dog to TRUST he has to see you as the leader and thus have a position of dominence over him. Again this is a good thing. At least in all I have read this is my take on it.

I want to be the alpha, I want to be dominent , I just do not think cooersion or force is the most productive or effective way to achieve those goals.

Again this is my very humble take on the process.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I see what you are saying Chris, and you are right in your perception of what cradling is meant to do. I never said the exercise is meant to dominate the dog in any post, I said it is a dominant position. It just is. Any time you lean over a dogs shoulder or back and make them stay there you are taking a dominant position. Making a puppy understand that this is a safe place for them and that nothing bad will happen when they come into our arms is key, but there is a reason most good puppies fight it at least a little in the beginning - because it is a dominant position and good SchH prospect puppies are not very submissive. This should be established during rag work long before a dog is on a sleeve.

The situation you explain with Bernard and the e-collar happened prior to my involvement with the sport. I do know Dave disagreed with that approach, and that Bernard obviously did not intimately know the dogs entire history just from one weekend seminar. To insinuate that Bernard is not a "real" professional given his track record of success due to this one incident with what many would call a "one in a million" hard dominant bitch seems a little extreme to me but if that is your take then that's your opinion. I have heard other bits and pieces, but again I try to stay out of those things since they have nothing to do with me and Lord knows I do not need to fan that fire (which I have no idea how it started to begin with) any more than she has. 

The second owner started with his male pup just about the time that you and I did. You were gone by the time the issue really reached the boiling point. Every week the pup would keep growing and getting stronger and stronger and the handler could not cradle the dog. It has created a lot of issues for him that he is finally just starting to work through since he stopped making excuses about it an just made the dog do it by holding him there calmly (which is SO much easier when a pup is 25 pounds than 75 pounds).


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Michelle,

That is exactly what I was trying to convey. Dominant behavior does not have to be about conflict. Calm dominant interaction with our dogs is in my opinion the most important method of communication. This is why so many unwanted behaviors from our dogs can be modified without "correction" by using non verbal body language (i.e. ignoring, occupying your own space, etc.) 

GSD's biddibility/desire to please is one of the many reasons why I love the breed so much. 

I wish I could spend all day every day with my dogs and bring them to work. You and Coop are lucky.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDI see what you are saying Chris, and you are right in your perception of what cradling is meant to do. I never said the exercise is meant to dominate the dog in any post, I said it is a dominant position. It just is. Any time you lean over a dogs shoulder or back and make them stay there you are taking a dominant position. Making a puppy understand that this is a safe place for them and that nothing bad will happen when they come into our arms is key, but there is a reason most good puppies fight it at least a little in the beginning - because it is a dominant position and good SchH prospect puppies are not very submissive. This should be established during rag work long before a dog is on a sleeve.
> 
> The situation you explain with Bernard and the e-collar happened prior to my involvement with the sport. I do know Dave disagreed with that approach, and that Bernard obviously did not intimately know the dogs entire history just from one weekend seminar. To insinuate that Bernard is not a "real" professional given his track record of success due to this one incident with what many would call a "one in a million" hard dominant bitch seems a little extreme to me but if that is your take then that's your opinion. I have heard other bits and pieces, but again I try to stay out of those things since they have nothing to do with me and Lord knows I do not need to fan that fire (which I have no idea how it started to begin with) any more than she has.
> 
> The second owner started with his male pup just about the time that you and I did. You were gone by the time the issue really reached the boiling point. Every week the pup would keep growing and getting stronger and stronger and the handler could not cradle the dog. It has created a lot of issues for him that he is finally just starting to work through since he stopped making excuses about it an just made the dog do it by holding him there calmly (which is SO much easier when a pup is 25 pounds than 75 pounds).


As far as cradling is concerned or taking the dominant position, I have also seen many handlers at the same level as the dog, kind of in a kneeling position, next to the dog. This is also done a lot as well and not a "dominant" position, per se. But for the sake of beating a dead horse into the ground, yes, standing over a dog is a "dominant" position but I don't think "dominating" your dog is the mindset behind the exercise, again, calmness and trust. 

As far as the situation with Bernard, since the helper was there and disagreed with the way it was being handled, perhaps he should have spoken up or at least questioned the situation. As you stated, Bernard was not extremely familiar with the dog but the helper was, perhaps a discussion would have been enlightening. After all, that's what seminars are all about.







That does concern me a bit and the dog's owner was a newbie at the time. At this point I'm sure they would not let that happen since they have been better educared. If you really want to stay out of those issues than perhaps we can discuss via pm. I have since seen dogs with similar issues as we are discussing and it was not handled with an e-collar. Of course, every dog is different but the situation was handled quite simply. I was not insinuating the Bernard is not professional but even as you stated, the dog's helper did not agree with the way the situation was handled and the owner of the dog has since been given advice and seen the same problem in other dogs handled by a professional. Just stating the facts.







Thank you for helping me fill in the blanks though. I was not aware of some of that background information. 

The second dog you brought up had issues because of the way the handler was playing/interacting with the dog. I am sure he eventually began to interact in a more appropriate way which in turn alleviated the conflict and built the trust which is needed to cradle the dog and have it calm. Glad to hear he is improving.


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