# Another nerve question



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I almost posted this yesterday but didn't. Since I see the other nerve thread, I need to ask. 
I am not looking to breed, I am looking for the breeder's perspective I guess. The topic did come up in a conversation with DH about breeding (friends of ours want to breed their new lab "just one time" before they neuter him). The topic brought us back to breeding GSDs because I know a little more about their issues from being around here. 
Anyway, we were talking about dogs we knew (mostly GSDs) and what their issues may be (in our own uneducated opinion). One dog we discussed, DH thought had nerve issues, I didn't. I think the dog has poor socialization. I think I have a hard time discriminating between the two.

For example, the dog in question does not like a group of people being around him, like when they all come over to see him at once. He doesn't bark or growl or anything, but obviously does not like all of these people coming at him to touch him. That is the only issue with him. Noises, gun shots, new environments, obstacles, etc., no issues. Even walking through crowds is fine. Is it nerves or socialization?

So my question, what are exactly are bad nerves? Where is the line between bad nerves and poor socialization?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Disclaimer - not a breeder*

My female is just like your dog in question. She was improperly socialized when I adopted her at 6 months old. She's 7 now and after all the work I've done with her, I trust her in any situation. However, she does not like people crowding around her paying attention to her. She's fine to be in a crowd of people as long as they're not all glooming all over her. I don't think she has weak nerves, quite contrary she's very confident, she just has personal space issues. She also dislikes other dogs being too close to her, including Otto who lives in the same house. She doesn't do anything other than let out a warning growl, which I don't correct.

Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I would not breed (or buy from a breeding) a dog that had poor nerves for ANY reason. Especially such popular breeds like labs and GSDs. There are many good dogs and good breeders to choose from if one will do the research and be patient. 

I'm not sure how exactly to tell what is the cause of a dogs issues. I think when we talk about weak nerves it is often assumed that the dog was from a good breeding and raised/trained by a good breeder/handler. If the dog was not well socialized or properly trained, I do not see why this dog would be a candidate for breeding anyway, regardless of nerve.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I never thought of it that way. Good point. 
These dogs we discuss will not be bred anyway, guess I am just trying to get a grasp on these things. 
Most of the GSDs we know are working dogs or washouts (like my Kape). All of them are well trained and from good breeding. The problem lies in the fact that they were brought in as green dogs, so their socialization is questionable. I know the kennel where we know get the dogs from does a ton of socialization. Not all the dogs are from that broker. 

SunCzarina- i always thought he had good nerves. He doesn't even mind other dogs in his space.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

It's the old Nurture vs Nature issue.

My $.02 - if a dog has the genetic stuff to display good nerves then even if they weren't socialized properly you could still work with them to get them past their issues.

In other words, if the dog that doesn't like crowds is exposed to them enough (and properly) then they will come to display the good nerves bred into them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know plenty of dogs that were not well trained or had less than optimim socialization that I would breed to. A dog with good genetics often will not show the effects of little training or an abundance of socialization. To the contrary, I have met many dogs owned by regular people who have just raised the dog normally with no training and the dog is an excellent family or watchdog. Usually, when I inquire of the pedigree you see it is a dog from strong genetics. Remember, German Shepherds didn't use to have a perfect home to become great dogs....the great things about shepherd temperament was the dog's ability to ADJUST to the environment it was placed in and still be a productive member. This is true shepherd temperament, IMO, today if a German Shepherd is looked at crossly it is abused in some peoples eyes! This is CRAZY, and we have bred out the adaptibility of this breed, the ability to make adjustments based on situations presented to the dog. Many people today have not really ever experienced "GOOD Shepherd " temperament.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Just because a dog does not like a bunch of people touching them is not indicative of bad nerves IMHO. Some dogs just do not want anybody touching them but a pack member or someone they know so based on the limited description you gave of the lab I could not say that is bad nerves. 

One of my gsd's who has good nerves does not care to be touched by strangers. She tolerates it but does not like it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lauri & Cliff (not that i disagree with liesje LOL) 

Years ago, when I had my first gsd moving out on my own,,and I was young and dumb)) I never took the dog to class, I taught him the basics, I didn't have kids, we didn't 'socialize' with other dogs much,,we just "had him",,,that dog could go anywhere, in any situation and be fine with it,,He was social loved kids, didn't mind other dogs...he was a great dog to live and 'play' with..

The last two gsd's I've had/have also the same way,,very adaptable, (and I grew up and got a little smarter) classes, competed with them, tho I've never really gone the doggie park thing...

It's what I love about the breed, the go anywhere into any situation and be fine with it..

As for the dog in the OP's post,,not liking people all over him/her,,what does he/she do?? GSD"s ,,atleast most of mine anyhow,,could honestly care less about other people,,they are fine with them, but very aloof as they should be...so maybe this dog was just demonstrating his aloofness??? vs non socialization behaviors?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Can't speak about the dog in the OP but my female doesn't do anything, I can just tell it she doesn't like a lot of people all paying attention to her at the same time. 

Aloof is the word for her. Used to be she didn't care if she met anyone new, she loved her family. Having a puppy as outgoing as Otto is has brought out the friendly in her, she actually seems to like meeting new people now, one or two at a time. Not children though, she could have 20 of them swarming her and she's in heaven.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

I would not necessarily call this weak or bad nerves either. GSDs are supposed to be aloof dogs that do not care abotu strangers, they tolerate them but they don't look for attention. Also, maybe this dog is more socially aware, in situations where a lot of people are all of a sudden coming onto her, she has to pay attention what they are doing, because she is more socially aware. Some other dog may enjoy this attention and roll on her back but not this dog.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Just to clarify... the dog in the OP is a GSD. He does not do anything that most people would notice when approached by a group. You can just see it is not a situation he likes. He is also aloof when he is met by new people one on one.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One of the key components to recognising weak nerves comes from the ability to "read" dogs. reading dogs usually takes a lot of experience in dealing with dogs in all kinds of situations, particularly stressful ones in terms of nerves. Body language is often valuable, such as worried look in eyes, hackles up for nonthreatening situation and some threatening situations, carriage of the tail, position of the ears in some situations, or it can be a combinations of these things that give you the read.Often constant jumping back up on the owner when stress is put, is because of nerves and not cause they love ya. The best way to learn to read dogs is in training modules that cause the dog to act and react when pressure is applied. this can be herding, sport, PP, policework,SAR, etc. Oftentimes people who do not work their dogs in some capacity are very limited in their ability to read a dog. But a person that can read a dog does not need for that dog to demonstrate high training techniques to assess whether or not the dog has good nerve. Great nerve sometimes requires the extra lengths, but good nerve is observable in most cases by a practiced eye with general behavoir seen. This is why many times a person will take a dog to a top trainer and the trainer will say his nerve isn't great but we'll see if he can do the work...this is because the trainer can "read" the dog from having a practiced eye from many examples.JMO


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

How a dog handles situation s/he doesn't like can be more indicative of nerve than simply what they dislike. Many dogs aren't gregarious. Djibouti is a youngster & alllll about 'the party', the more the merrier. Grandma Sam willingly tolerates crowds, noise, strangers, including those grabbing/petting/stroking her, but it's not her preference. She's not tense, stressed or even unhappy but she remains pleasantly aloof & doesn't emotionally commit much of herself. She's 10 & considerably more reserved than her grandson.



> Quote:IMO, today if a German Shepherd is looked at crossly it is abused in some peoples eyes!


LordLuvUs but yes!!! MyTribe is well acquainted with the fact that I can be a cranky bitch. They just give a canine(or feline) shrug & mutter that I'm in one of those moooods. They're actually remarkably adept at making me catch myself & getting me to laugh at myself, bad mood over!!!

One of my main requirements is that my guys can't be excessively sensitive or emotionally fragile. My household & my neighborhood are utterly wrong for such animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that a GSD that was raised with an active family, teenagers and or children in and out, visiting friends of all sizes, variety of stuff happening all the time, that dog, even without deliberate training and socialization is going to do better amongst a crowd of people than a dog who lives with a single adult, even if that single adult took the dog to classes and spent time socializing it as a pup. And a dog in from a kennel would probably have even more anxiety in that situation. I do not see that as weak nerves.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Sue, that kind of socialization for dogs with good nerves is unbeatable, IMO. Would dogs with weaker nerves, find it overwhelming or intimidating, even if exposed to it from birth? 

Mine was a big, bumptious, noisy, contentious family. For that reason I sought out unflappable dogs (& cats) that either thrived on the insanity or were at least impervious to it. The price I pay is I've often lived with dogs (& cats) willing to give me the furry middle finger at times! Fortunately I love opinionated beasts, even if their opinions don't jive perfectly with my own.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Another important trait of a German Sheperd and is part of the nerve component, is the dog's ability to rebound back from stress/adversity. Trainers will tell you this is often the most important trait for assessing the level a dog is capable of achieving. Nobody expects a pup to be sure around things that it has not been exposed to or somethig new out its territory....BUT...once its been exposed and found not to be a threat how well and QUICKLY does the dog return to normal and comfortable around this situation. This is DIRECTLY related to nerve and all good trainer realize this. If a dog sees a plastic bag blowing in wind and goes up to explore the situation cautiously, and then see its nothing but a beg and goes on about its business, there's nothing wrong with that.....BUT if the dog alerts and explore that plastic bag and becomes fearful after exploring it, or become obsessed with it in a unsure way, or everytime afterwards it see something like that bag blowing around and it always shows the uncertainity, or you have to repeatedly reintroduce this dog/puppy to the bag ad finitum to get it desenitzed......then there are NERVE issues involved because the dogs ability to recover from initial experience is being hampered by weak nerves. You can train over this as Lee points out in another topic but a practiced eye can see that the dog does not recover well and knows the reason. How often have I seen people who have dogs with weak nerves try to pass it off as the dog was abused.....A good GS should even as a puppy be able to recover from most anything that is not "Life Threatening", and mother nature gives them the ability to differentiate the life threatening that's why sound GS puppies will boldly approach new endeavors and handle them quite well. JMO


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yana is a dog with weak nerves. She can be in a crowd, in a park, in dog park, she's great with kids, any types of noises, surfaces, smart, trainable, very good natured but her nerves are weak and her default reaction to new people is fear. At the moment when somebody pays attention to her she gets nervous. She will allow some people to touch her, like a vet or friends that she knows but she's clearly (to me) uncomfortable. Her socializing was very extensive and I did not nurture fearful behaviour. In fact, I'm doing everything the same with the younger pup or even provide less socializing and formal training to him but he's such a solid easy going adjustable dog that takes anything that life throws at him in a stride.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff, excellent posts. Well thought out and explained!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: chrubyJust because a dog does not like a bunch of people touching them is not indicative of bad nerves IMHO. Some dogs just do not want anybody touching them but a pack member or someone they know


I agree with these. I have one of these dogs. She is afraid of nothing, however she prefers to be seek and be given affection by HER human. She tolerates other people just fine, but doesn't particular "enjoy" them.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyPShe is afraid of nothing, however she prefers to be seek and be given affection by HER human. She tolerates other people just fine, but doesn't particular "enjoy" them.


That could also describe my female. She has 2 people she seeks affection from - me and DS#1. Not that she dislikes my other 2 children, they just aren't as special to her as the firstborn. She also enjoys my mother's company but that seems to be as a substitute for me when I'm not here.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm still confused here. Yana also tolerates other people and she doesn't like them in her space. She tolerates vets pocking her all over, she tolerated a stranger guy helping me carrying her when she was injured, but I am confident she is fearful and weak nerved. 

Anton, 11 months old pup, on the other hand not that doesn't like strangers, he just doesn't care of any attention from them. It's not like he doesn't enjoy them or tolerates them, he just simply doesn't care if they are present or not. After a look and quick sniff he'll wag his tail and be done with them and they can pet him, pull his tale, whatever, he just doesn't care like they are some kind of moving furniture or something. 

He will take a treat but funny thing he will not always eat it and sometimes will just spit it out. He's a friendly social dog but he's not this type that will lick you to death and he's becoming pretty aloof with people he doesn't know.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Again, that was what I meant when I talk about reading a dog....Aloof is not indicative of weak nerves....many DDR dogs are extremely aloof and the breed in general has the trait as part of its standard. Weak nerves is usually indicated by a lack of confidence in a given situation. Many dogs have environmental issues from weak nerves such as lack of confidence on slippery or tile like floors. Try walking a dog over a metal grate, its alright for the dog to be not sure the first time, but after the dog sees the grates will support its weight you shouldn't have any problem. Thunder storms are also indicative of nerve issues. Of course all of this has varying degrees, but a good breeder HAS to recognize the source of the issue or lack of confidence because nerve issues are genetic and will be passed onward even faster than HD. And we know how people feel about HD(smile). Good training can disguise some nerve issues but it won't stop the genetics from passing on. Good breeders know that dogs with strong nerves can go into almost any environment or home and make the adjustment....whereas the dogs with weak nerves must have optimim socialization and training to be productive outside the home. If you would talk to people who have been into the seeing-eye business for many years(so that they remember when GS led the field in this endeavor), they will tell you that lack of nerve strength is the main reason the breed is seldom used anymore. This isn't protection training, but it shows that many people(and I don't mean BYB) are breeding dogs that aren't as sound as they preach because a seeing eye dog needs sound nerve and judgement to be effective and our breed has declined in this area. BTW, many high drive dogs have weak nerves but their drives will disguise this to the novice but these same dogs wouldn't pass the seeing-eye training either.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote: BTW, many high drive dogs have weak nerves but their drives will disguise this to the novice


I see this a lot in Mals, but also, unfortunately, in too many GSD that are in sport.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, I definitely agree....nerve might be the most important element that should be considered for breeding as it is necessary for the breed to represent what it was created to be. This is why I have never understood why in the breed ring in America (and I think Germany too as of recently), that they donot have the gunshots during conformation judging. This is a very good way too detect basic nerve issues in a dog. It would be very apparent to all. Afterall, aren't these the dogs that are going to get more breedings if successful than any BYB breeder. Plus their breeding has a wider scope of influence in terms of distance and different partners....so why would GOOD breeders not want to see something as simple as gunshots in the conformation ring to weed out dogs with weak nerves.???? To me the whole establishment (judges, officials, breeders, and consumers) can't convince me that they really want to improve the breed when they won't put measures in place that would expose weaknesses in dogs that are going to have a big impact on the breed by virtue of their champion status. Oh Well, when you don't take these measure than the breed will suffer in nerve strength, thus temperament, thus areas when it can productively serve mankind, thus not the dog it once was. Yes, I am passionate about nerve strength because it is the very foundation of the greatness of this breed, more than any other single component. Without it the breed is no longer a working dog as many so called responsible breeders can't seem to understand. I'm through!!(smile).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Keep on venting. We have the same soap box.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: lhczth
> 
> 
> > Quote: BTW, many high drive dogs have weak nerves but their drives will disguise this to the novice
> ...


You guys are talking about my boy Urro here.. LOL 

I can say that as a pup you really didn't see the nervyness. It started coming out at about 7-8 months of age. He has extreme ball drive though, and if I pull out a ball in almost any situation then he will forget the source of his fear as long as the ball is out. Put the ball away and he starts looking around. 

I did the CGC, TDI with him at the "home" training facility and he passed with flying colors. Did AKC obedience with him and was constantly complimented on him... LOL but they were not looking closely enough, just below the surface of his pretty flashy obedience the nerves were showing thru. A couple of the OTCH trainers would comment on it but for the most part it could be well hidden, but I always knew it was there.

I never did any SchH with him but I fully believe that with the right handler and helper on the home field, he could be titled. (except for the ED)

Yes, Urro has severe ED which is very limiting to him but I have to say that the nerve issue is the worst of it IMO. Bad/weak nerves is a terrible thing to have to deal with. (I *love* my dog, but hate the nervyness)

Having gone from Branca, a dog with absolutely 100% solid nerves to a dog with questionable nerves, well it seems to me that nerves should be the one thing that should be absolutely NON-NEGOTIABLE when choosing breeding stock!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I think a single gun shot test does not test enough for nerves. Some dogs with weak nerves may not react to a single shot, training helps here, and a dog could react if never heard before yet have better nerves. The look in the eye and recovery time is required to help determine this. Also the ability to be thrown into a new situation which they could not be trained for, and the recovery time noted and perhaps done yearly? 

As previously mentioned I had Belgians for years and lately we are hearing more about sound sensitive dogs in later years, and a link to thyroid issues which are causing onset weak nerves. Obviously these dogs should not be bred but like with epilepsy,(another big Belgian issue), often this shows up after the dog has been bred. 

So what I'm trying to say is to safeguard the breed, testing should be rigorous, done yearly and breeders should not try to trick the tests by training. We should all strive to not sink into further health/temperment problems but start proactively working to better the breed. We should start joining together and focus on this and not on who is too big, small, angulated, weak heads, ears etc. The breed must be stable and healthy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Branca, I commend you for your honesty and openess to acknowledge your situation....many people create excuses for examples like yours to justify breeding the dog....and PLENTY of dogs have been titled with conditions such as yours....but more importantly I commend you on RECOGNIZING the importance of this trait in terms of "if" you were a breeder. To me people who don't acknowledge or realize the importance of nerves should no more be breeding than the BYB. Yet you see them lecturing others about breedings because their dog isn't backyard bred. Breeding should be done by people who are knowledge of the breed standard and understand what a German Shepherd should be and don't compromise these things in the name of hips, color, angulation, stifle, shoulder, gait, or anything else. Not saying you should accept deficiencies in these areas either, if possible, but breeding is always a compromise of priorities and when you breed for the wrong priorities "first" then the breed starts to change from what it is supposed to be. 
Trudy, you are right in that gunshots is not always enough, but for the conformation ring it is the most pragmatic thing you can do to expose this tremendously important deficiency. And any breeder that doesn't want this exposed, is part of reason the temperament of many of our dogs today is not suitable to even be a seeing-eye dog much less do protection work. So, for the people who are breeding and abhor protection work, if your dogs don't have the nerve strength to be able to pass a seeing-eye training program because of lack of confidence without you(nerve), the dog STILL should'nt be bred!!! Good posts, Branca and Trudy!!IMO!


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I know its impossible to really assess a dog without seeing them... But, can weak nerves come out in a dog in a more defensive way then a fearful way? Bixler has no noise sensitivitys, no footing sensitivitys, he does not *appear* fearful (to me), but could he act defensive because of nerves? He can be suspicious of people... always people approaching us, he is fine in crowds, fine when we are approaching people, but if someone approaches us that he doesnt know he will usually bark at them in a defensive way. If he is in a down, and someone approaches, he wont bark, mostly just if we are casually standing around and he is not supposed to be doing anything else. Its not with everyone, and I can find no correlation between the ones he decides need barked at. He barks at bicyles the same way, when he was tried in bitework a handful of times he was overly defensive towards the helper and didnt really want much to do with the tug. The helper said he reminded him of dogs used in the military who want nothing more than to make contact with a person to bite. The other day a friend came over, and when he was leaving we both stood up and were about to shake hands, as soon as the guy lifted his hand Bixler was right there barking at him, but didnt try to bite, and I got between them and sent him away. I would think this has to be genetic because he has been with me since 8 weeks and never had a reason to be like this. Its came out a lot more since he has matured... (he is 3.5 yo).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is a very important issue under the topic of "Breeding", Why??, because here in America there are many more breeders that breed GS that don't believe in protection training. Not going down the road of right or wrong, but if people are going to breed without that parameter to test a dogs nerves, then what basis or standard should they be using to determine the dog's temperament is adequate. You see, the examples of nerve weakness listed in previous posts must be connected to the thinking of whether I should breed my dog, as much as an OFA mild. Sooooo....when people come to me and ask me to evaluate their dog in terms of whether they should breed the dog, one of the things I try to get them to see is whether or not they would be comfortable with their dog being the eyes for a visually impaired person. Will loud noises startle the dog, will it trigger automatic aggression, or fearfulness, how long does it take the dog to recover from the unknown,(a dog responsible for helping a visually impaired person can't take 10 times to desensitize it to the backfiring of a car), what about sureness of foot on any surfaces,(certainly the VI person needs this from their dog), the boldness to venture somewhere new at the command of the owner, the ability to stay calm and controlled once it has been trained to do so (again for the VI person). Now these things have nothing to do with protection training but have everything to do with "TRUE" GS temperament. If you are breeding dogs that you wouldn't feel is capable of being trained to do these things, IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME, then to me you are irresponsible as the person you may criticize for breeding with no hip certifications or titles. Many people do it anyway either out of ignorance or lack of understanding, but our breed's decline in nerve strength, resulting in agencies like the seeing-eye foundation to barely look at GS anymore, is the result of people breeding who donot understand what a true working dog should possess and breeding the dog anyway or because of other factors like beauty, structure, or color. JMO. These are necessary but without nerve strength the dog can't work and thus isn't a working dog.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Great posts, Clifton. I think you need to email them to every show and pet (and working) breeder of GSDs that exist. Put your posts on billboards, take out TV ads... but I'm sure it'd fall on deaf ears more than not.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I always agree with you Clifton. Your posts show that you really understand and know the breed, care for it and are not intimidated by authorities in the dog world. You were right on spot with Anton, he's a DDR pup







I was always wondering why on a few occasions you mentioned that here in the US nobody knows how to deal with DDR dogs anyway. What did you have in mind? Would really appreciate your insight.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oksana, thanks for the kind words, its not that nobody knows how to deal with the DDR dogs, its more that our training culture of today is built on instant gratification and training methods that are predicated on fast early development(prey drive, food drive, early expectations), and the typical DDR dog develops maturity later. Why??? Because the true DDR dog has a forty year history of being bred with defense drives being a priority. the defense drive in a dog develops later than the prey drive, so people have to wait for it to utilize it at its fullest degree. Most training modules today don't want to wait until a dog is three or better to start serious training. Then other people compare these dogs with the development they see in many West working and showlines and the progress is much slower. These dogs are usually more aloof and handler sensitive than many other European dogs because of their make-up. They make GREAT family dogs but are not the kind of dogs you can take the leash and give to somebody else and the dog will function well. They can meet stress sometimes with sharpness, but their nerve is connected to their maturity, so often fairly knowledgable people evaluate a DDr dog at say a year and don't see the outward expression they feel the dog should be showing. You know its funny, because yesterday at training, a friend who has an all black male from me that is 3 years old had a really strong day inprotection work. A newer member of our club said to the owner "Boy your dogs has really increased its intensity in the past two months...what happened to this dog" The owner looked at me and smiled and said" Cliff told me when I got the dog that he would mature late because his mother was DDR and for me not to get discouraged, Of course at times I had my doubts, but this dog is becoming exactly what Cliff said he would." This isn't about me but trying to demonstrate the characteristics of many DDR dogs that people often misunderstand.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Cliff, thank you so much for your explanation! That's the key, instant gratification and not willing to understand and explore why the dog behaves the way he does. I remember times when nobody on the training field would even talk with you about protection before your dog was 2.5 - 3 years old (not in the US) and now a dog is expected to be titled and start breeding at this age.

I really enjoy watching my pup maturing, I'm there for him all along the way and I am not going to push him too hard too soon.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good Luck!!!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Cliff, I really understand what you mean. My female is german working lines with DDR mixed in between and she is not only aloof, she is "autistic", in the words of my friends, when it's not about me. She's also very handler sensitive, what can be confused with weakness for people who doesn't know enough. Yesterday a friend helper worked with her in protection and we developed a plan for the next couple of months based on only prey work (that she has and is strong) because she switches too easily to defense mode, and being she barely one year old and with no so good helper work in the past she is on her way to create a lot of conflicts that we want to avoid until she matures more. What I like about her, but can be seen as not so good by others, is that she has not the typical flashy obedience with enthusiasm flooding through her, but she is very concentrated on the job and usually very correct.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Catu, sounds like you and your helper are "reading" your dog well and going down the path that will not create problems that will have to be undone later(like handler/helper conflict), congrats on take it slow and she will be fine. All dogs were not made for flashy obedience and I prefer correct obedience that is capped to flashy obedience that is leaking any day of the weel...JMO


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Clifton, I've long wondered why GSDs were no longer the chosen dog for guide/service dogs. When I was a child GSDs were almost always the breed used in the USA for guide/svc work. I never thought to see the day when they were largely usurped in that capacity.

I've long favored slow maturing dogs. I don't want my teenager to act like a sedate old geezer. Something I find distressing in the show ring is 2-3yo dogs/bitches who look 7-8. ****, by the time they're 5 or 6 many of them look careworn & done in. The excess weight so many breeds favor doesn't help, either.

Oh, great info & beautifully stated, btw.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For those that are interested there is a great article on PDB messageboard under topic of "Elements of Temperament" Especially read the part on nerves!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks! I definitely want to read that.

My 1st IW had mildly wonky nerves. He could be slightly phobic about *things*, especially *things* out of place or behaving weirdly. For example, a shovel fell on him once & he swore to NEVER permit that shovel near him again. Other shovels, fine, just not the killer shovel from Hades. (He wasn't hurt, not even a little, just spooked). Another time he had a bout of explosive diarrhea outside & ran berserk trying to elude his exploding butt. That happened inside once & he vowed to never step foot _outside_ again. (The infinitely wise, very patient Cochise coaxed him out)

People were fine regardless of age, gender, dress, race, attitude or disability. He was fine with wheelchairs, walkers, canes, crutches, scooters & bikes. He was impervious to noises, however loud or close. it was only *things* that bothered him, & only some *things*. 

He was the most discerning judge of character I've known. Despite this, I'd watch him carefully around people 'just in case'. My low income neighborhood has a # of 1/2way houses, residential facilities etc. When walking him, mentally, intellectually & physically impaired people, including children, would frequently rush up to us excited to see the big dogs. Despite grabbing at him, hard 'petting', making uncoordinated herky jerky movements, leaning/moving haphazardly all over him, laughing/talking loudly into his face & squabbling among themselves for 'rights' to pet him he remained utterly calm. absolutely composed & quietly happy with the attention.

Because his nerviness was limited to *things* & not that many *things* he was generally very easy to live with. A mind game I've played for years is whether he should have been bred. I tend towards no, but b/c his quirks were so easily managed, b/c he was excellent with people, dogs & other animals & b/c he lived past 11, I do wonder. (More IWs die by 5 than live to 10. Longevity is, or oughta be, a HUGE IW issue) *shrug*It's strictly a mental game. He was neutered ~1yr & never bred as agreed to when I got him. And it's not something I regret...just something I ponder.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 How often have I seen people who have dogs with weak nerves try to pass it off as the dog was abused.....A good GS should even as a puppy be able to recover from most anything that is not "Life Threatening", and mother nature gives them the ability to differentiate the life threatening that's why sound GS puppies will boldly approach new endeavors and handle them quite well. JMO


Agreed.....but I would not say most people are knowingly trying to pass it off..most people do not realize the difference. See it all the time.... kind of sad actually when you see how many GSD's are out there displaying that behavior....guess it's worse to think that so many could be being abused but not so good to think so many weaked nerved ones are being bred either......


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1For those that are interested there is a great article on PDB messageboard under topic of "Elements of Temperament" Especially read the part on nerves!


Thank you for the referral to this, I printed it out for future reference!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayClifton, I've long wondered why GSDs were no longer the chosen dog for guide/service dogs. When I was a child GSDs were almost always the breed used in the USA for guide/svc work. I never thought to see the day when they were largely usurped in that capacity.


According to the people who are involved in guide/service work, the biggest reason is public perception. The ignorant public is more comfortable having Labs and Goldens around in stores, restaurants, the subway, etc... than those "scary" GSDs. In today's PC society we wouldn't want someone's service dog to intimidate or frighten anyone, and of course we know how quickly some people will throw a fit if they feel offended by a dog or scared by a dog, or God forbid it looked at them crosseyed. So the trend has gone toward more soft, happy, friendly appearing dogs for service work.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In the article on temperament you see that the author refers to the originator of the breed and well as concurring herself that "weak nerves" was the single biggest negative element when making a breeding decision. Not hips, not shoulder, not color, not size, not aggression, not any of the things that you hear people use as the basis for making their breeding decisions. I only point this out because I am sure many on here say "Well that just Cliff's soapbox, and who is he to make weak nerves so important or even equate some of these things with weak nerves". But actually this was something the originator of the breed warned against and prioritized as the most important aspect. Yet, there are many people today who breed weak nerved dogs because of beauty, color, emotions, sidegait, etc. These are the true BYB because they are increasing the mosy important negative trait in the breed! Until people prioritze what they are breeding for correctly, it doesn't matter what the hips or size or sidegait is, the breed will continue to spiral down into the catergory of dyfunctional for what it was created for.....Work. Also, note that kennel dogs in the context of being negative isn't about just living in a kennel. its about the dog being owned and none of the working qualities developed by the owner. the Capt. felt this also would lead temperament down the path of destruction. Its now eighty years later, and if you examine the breed as a whole does it appear the Capt was a good or bad predictor! But you know the real irony....you would think that the socalled back yard breeder is the main culprit for breeding with the most negative attribute being deficient.....but its not the case...the biggest contributors of breeding and maintain the weakness of nerve in the breed is the so called "responsible breeders". That's why I laugh every time I hear somebody refer to another as a responsible breeder based on an internet review(website), when their is no way you can assess nerves from paper or internet.JMO


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I've long been a fan of that article as I think it one of the most comprehensive ones out there on the aspects of temperament, and it's easy for someone without a huge vocabulary of dog lingo to read and understand.



> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1In the article on temperament you see that the author refers to the originator of the breed and well as concurring herself that "weak nerves" was the single biggest negative element when making a breeding decision.


Agree 100%. Weak nerves impact the dog's ability to function in any manner. Not just working but also just being a good family pet. I would rate nerves even above health in terms of breeding priority. Even most serious health conditions can be managed or fixed, though it may be expensive or difficult to do so. But nothing can fix weak nerves. And weak nerves can bring about every bit as much expense, inconvenience, frustration and heartache... plus in many cases a serious issue of unpredictability, danger and liability.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

This article is on Chris Wild website in article section, that's where I found it first. Great info, I wish I knew it before I got my Yana from a 'responsible' breeder. Yana is a picture of health (was before her hip was dislocated but it's a different story), perfect hips, no allegies, no digestion problems, very intelligent, loves to train, track, do obedience, wonderful grip, but her weak nerves make her a disfunctional dog and yes, she's a liability.

Her breeder is still flooding the area with her nervy dogs, and those clueless unsuspecting pet people (just like me) get the dogs that will require a very strong and willing handler to manage them for life. 

Chris, public is not ignorant, there is a big reason to be scared of German shepherds that are walking around here. I think you are just surraunded by so many great dogs and great owners that you forget what it looks like out there in our suburbia.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I had not posted on here but read all of the posts, what a great topic. 

I kind of agree with Oksana's last comment, especially when I know who the breeder is that she refers to as flooding the market around here and unfortunately that breeder is not the only one. She breeds for hips - forget temperament. I do think the general public is ignorant of how to tell good temperamnt so this breeder and others like her have a steady market and our training club sees them in classes barking and lunging and reacting like idiots at everything around them or shying away in fear. 

I had not seen the article on temperamnet but I am going to read it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Unfortunately, Cliff, the founders of the breed used dogs of very questionable character to create the look they wanted. We have many of the problems we do today because the Capt did not follow what he preached. Even the Capt had his faults despite the great work he did in helping to create this wonderful breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, you are right about the Capt. wanting the trophy dog look and using some of the lines that he knew were not as strong. The difference today is that in those days the expectations and use of the dog was for working and so dogs that tended to be used had minimum working qualities. Some were sharper than others, but you didn't regularly see the overt weak nerves that you see today. You talk to people in their sixties and seventies and ask them what they remember of the German Shepherd and most remember them as dogs doing police, military, or seeing-eye work. the ones people owned were impressive and home watchdogs. this was the norm...not to say there wasn't weak nerves but it hadn't been bred upon for generation after generation to achieve an esthetic beauty. I didnot start seeing the "overt" weak nerves until the Lance craze started. I remember the imported dogs of the sixties and seventies before the Martin brothers started sending over the stuff out of Canto, these dogs all had good temperament in varying degrees but not overt shyness. In those days you never saw the "worried look" in a German Shepherds eyes just by taking it some where new. 
Yes, Iagree the breed is comprised of different variances of temperament, but man has made the conscious decision to emphasize the wrong things to breed for, resulting in the deeply ingrained lack of working ability that many have today...JMO


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree, but these weak trophy dogs did not help the breed during its early days and, IMO, their influence is still felt. Only thing that probably saved the breed as a working dog was that they didn't breed trophy to trophy but did bring the ugly working bitches to the pretty trophy dog males. We kept the weakness at bay by paying attention to work along with beauty. Now, well.......... we know the results.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That's all I'm saying in a nutshell.....people continue to breed weak to weak in the name of color,show, sidegait,etc. We can't do anything about the creation part in terms of maintaining the stature of this great dog, but we sure as **** don't have to breed for "our view of what the dog should be" as opposed to what the dog needs to maintain its stature in the dogworld. You see, I'm here now and hope I am contributing to keeping this breed one, that the working world can still come to to get a dog to work for mankind! I know you do to Lisa(smile)!!


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow. I have been away for a bit and came back to find a ton of posts. Great info. I will definitely check out that article later (just getting off backshift). 
Thanks for all the imput.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

How would someone with limited experience be able to tell if the breeder she is looking at breeds for temperament? All breeders say they do. 
Also, is there any way to distinguish a nervy puppy from a stable one? Or any specific test that can answer this question in an adult dog?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaGHow would someone with limited experience be able to tell if the breeder she is looking at breeds for temperament? All breeders say they do.


Ask specific questions about drives, thresholds, behaviors, etc.... Require the breeder to define what their idea of temperament is, and how their dogs measure up to it in detailed terms. And then you need to compare their idea of "good" temperament to yours. Different people have different ideas of what constitutes "good" and "bad" temperament. What a show fancier and working line enthusiast consider to be "good" temperament is going to be alike in some ways, and vastly different in others.

Ask for references from people who know their dogs (not just previous customers).

Do you own research outside what the breeder tells you. If the breeder is active with their dogs and titles them in some venue, there are probably people out there who have seen the dogs and why may be able to give you an objective opinion of them.



> Originally Posted By: AndreaG
> Also, is there any way to distinguish a nervy puppy from a stable one?


Yes. By observing the pups' behavior and reactions in a variety of situations and environments, someone who knows what he's looking at and how to interpret puppy behavior can get a pretty accurate assessment of nerves. Not always 100% accurate, as sometimes pups do change, but that's pretty uncommon. Usually when it comes to nerves, what you see in a young pup is what you get.

Many of the exercises in the popular standardized puppy tests are geared toward testing nerves as well. Though a snapshot in time, as a test is, is never as sound or reliable as long term observation.



> Originally Posted By: AndreaGOr any specific test that can answer this question in an adult dog?


Really the same answer as with pups. While due to maturity and life experience an adult will typically react differently to some things than a pup, the process is the same. Observe the dog in a variety of situations and when exposed to varying levels of stress, and it's usually pretty obvious to someone who knows what they are looking at.

As far as specific tests, there are any number of things that could be done... shoot a gun to test sound sensitivity, jump out from behind a bush and startle the dog and see how he reacts, etc... Severe cases are pretty obvious. A super skittish dog who bolts in terror or has a complete freak out doesn't take a lot of experience to spot. But milder cases of nerve weakness can be much more subtle and difficult to spot if you don't know what you're looking at. The other problem with doing specific tests is that they are just snapshots of the moment, and are in many cases rather one dimensional means of trying to evaluate a very multi-faceted aspect of character. And of course, the accuracy is greatly dependent on the skill and knowledge of the person evaluating the dog's behavior. 

In all cases when trying to judge nerves in a dog, it is best to remove the dog from familiar surroundings. Place the dog in a strange, neutral environment with no comfort of home and owner or other pack mates to provide security, and then see how he reacts.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

..in other words, one has to have years of extensive dog experience to be able to do this, right? So if someone doesn't have this, it's best to trust someone who seems like they do. What specific questions or answers would YOU be looking for if you were to decide if that person would decide well for you? OK let me re-pharse this, because as you said, you idea of a stable good temperament might be different from mine: our goals would be different. Or maybe not? I would be looking for someone who can point me towards a bomb-proof, stable family dog. But maybe they are not so different from those who would do well on your field? Just different drives? (sorry if these questions seem lame, I read a lot, but only had a total of two GSDs in my life, and maybe 4 other dogs that I lived with long term).

ETA: how can you kow if your own dog has good nerves or not? Does it count if she's OK with new things if she is with me, or should I try to see her interact with a stranger in a weird, new situation to see her "real "self? Any specific ideas?
Aslo, what can you do about nerves once you know if you might have an issue, other than keep exposing them to new things and such?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

can anyone give examples of a dog displaying weak nerves in a particular situation vs a dog that just doesn't want someone in their face? 

i think people do have a bit of confusion on weak nerve behavior vs lack of social stuff, or abusive issues. i am sure its an individual thing.

an example. what if someone got a pup from a stable reputable line. they socialized it from the time it was a pup, did classes continually throughout that time, went everywhere did everything right, never had any negative encounters, and the pup still showed nervousness in situations at say 9-10 months old. 

debbie


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think too when you think of dogs you get straight out of shelter, who hop in the car and are ready to go...someone, somewhere did something right-whether knowingly or not. Or dogs being evaluated in a shelter environment. Bad smells, loud, high stress, being pushed by a stranger who may not be able to see that they've pushed the dog too far, yet the dog responds well. The one former ACO I know would never pass a dog that bites because she says this stress can be replicated in the outside world-and that this is the dog's default reaction to it. 

I am not sure how this necessarily fits this discussion, but think that it is not just in training situations that these dogs are tested-some of these dogs just amaze me with their great nerve in truly stressful scenarios and having had really crappy prior lives.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Yep, I agree. On the other hand, a dog can be sg in the shelter and sg completely different in two weeks. For better or worse. As Chris said: any temp. test is really a frozen image, only gives you information about that particular day.
ETA: it would be wonderful if we had tests that would give an idea about the dog's basic, deep character. Like the one I am not sure if it's fair is the food bowl test with a dog that has been starved for months. I would surely object if someone was trying to take my food away when I'm that hungry. Now do this after years of dependable owners who feed me regularly, and I would be like: OK, whatever.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Meisha is 7.5 yrs, always stable temperment to my knowledge, bloat surgery 5 months ago, since then other health issues. So yesterday at the vets vet questioned any behavior changes and I said yes. She has become terrified of my husbands electric shaver. She runs downstairs every time it is turned on. The vet said I wonder if she remembers the shaving prior to surgery and now I wonder, is this a sign of weak nerves? She still behaves at the vets but definitely is unhappy there, she walks in fine, stands for exam and is not growling, or threatening but obviously wants to leave. 

How can you measure weak nerves or is it something seen in lots of situations? days? places? I am confused. When the vet tecs tell me how odd my shepherds are because they are not scared and nervous, since that is a breed trait, do I have the odd ones? Or are mine, specifically Meisha, who suddenly has a fear thing weak nerved as well?


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: trudyMeisha is 7.5 yrs, always stable temperment to my knowledge, bloat surgery 5 months ago, since then other health issues. So yesterday at the vets vet questioned any behavior changes and I said yes. She has become terrified of my husbands electric shaver. She runs downstairs every time it is turned on. The vet said I wonder if she remembers the shaving prior to surgery and now I wonder, is this a sign of weak nerves? She still behaves at the vets but definitely is unhappy there, she walks in fine, stands for exam and is not growling, or threatening but obviously wants to leave.


This is often more a learned behavior than a definite nerve weakness. As you have no idea how traumatic the pre-surgury experience was, and that this sounds like a completely isolated response to a very specific stimulus. I would expect to see this behavior diminish over time as she becomes used to the sound being meaningless again. If in fact there are no other signs in the other area of her life. 

The action she takes when she hears the clipper buzz is the same action a weak nerved dog would take. With a weak nerved dog though you see similar behaviors in response to a wide variety of stimuli as if this is the default reaction to new experiences. Though a dog can be weak nerved if the response isn't this pronounced as well.




> Originally Posted By: trudy
> How can you measure weak nerves or is it something seen in lots of situations? days? places? I am confused. When the vet tecs tell me how odd my shepherds are because they are not scared and nervous, since that is a breed trait, do I have the odd ones? Or are mine, specifically Meisha, who suddenly has a fear thing weak nerved as well?


Nervousness in the dog that is most often used as a police and bomb detection dog, or for search and rescue? I don't think so, this is in no way a "breed trait" your vet tech is coo,coo. The fact that he can actually believe this shows that he has no knowledge of this breed, and has only experienced crappy examples of it.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebcan anyone give examples of a dog displaying weak nerves in a particular situation vs a dog that just doesn't want someone in their face?
> 
> i think people do have a bit of confusion on weak nerve behavior vs lack of social stuff, or abusive issues. i am sure its an individual thing.
> 
> ...


The example seems to me to be a weak nerved dog but it depends on what you mean by nervousness. 

As far as weak nerves, vs. poor social behavior, vs. reacting to abuse, all can often show as similar reactions to stimuli, and the only response as far as assessing the dog goes is to wash it out of any breeding program. Only the best should be breed and the best strongest nerves will not need extensive socialization to react to strange places properly, they will survive the abuse without letting it color their reactions, and they don't have weak nerves. 

What do you mean by "someone in their face"? A weak nerved dog acts fearful a strong nerved dog does not. Any action beyond that basic emotional state isn't related to nerve so much as previous experience handling similar situations.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the answer and I certainly hope she gets over this new behavior, although it is very specific and isolated. I hope Ty remains strong nerved and doesn't copy this new behavior. 
Also thanks for clarifying things too, so an isolated event caused probably from shaving during emergency surgery probably doesn't mean weak nerved if isolated and it ends, but many such reactions to different stressors would definitely be weak nerved.

Also I agree vet tech should see more stable dogs, how sad that there are more poorer examples of this great breed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: trudy
> Also thanks for clarifying things too, so an isolated event caused probably from shaving during emergency surgery probably doesn't mean weak nerved if isolated and it ends, but many such reactions to different stressors would definitely be weak nerved.


Precisely. An isolated stimulus, particularly one that is known to have a possible correlation to a traumatic event for a dog, to me isn't indicative of weak nerves. Even a couple of isolated incidents or reactions to stimuli that can't be traced to a traumatic event aren't necessarily indicative of weak nerves. You've got to look at the dog's overall behavior to a wide range of different stimuli and stressors over a long period of time.

Weak nerves typically manifest themselves as patterns of behavior. Dogs that are skittish in general, unsure about new surroundings in general, sound sensitive in general, etc... are weak nerved.

A true to life, and rather amusing example: Our ol' boy, Kaiser, was for most of his early years afraid of pumpkins. I have no idea why. I know he didn't have a bad experience with a pumpkin. He did eventually get over it after a few years of being socialized around those darn pumpkins at Halloween time. It is the only thing in his entire life of which he has ever been afraid. An isolated incident like that speaks to a personality quirk, phobia, whatever you want to call it, but certainly not weak nerves. But the same sort of reaction to a wide range of strange and unfamiliar objects... or all vegetables in general... would indicate more than just a bizarre personality quirk.

This is why things like temperament tests and such need to be taken with a grain of salt. While they can be useful in terms of providing SOME information, they are not definitive and should be considered only part of the equation. Long term observation in a variety of situations is the best way to really determine nerve strength. This is why thorough training programs for titles are important for assessing nerve and temperament of breeding stock, IMO. Because they expose the dog to a wide variety of environments, situations, stressors and require him to perform complex tasks under those condidtions. And they do so over an extended period of time. Many dogs can appear strong nerved at home, in their familiar and safe environment, with the constant company and support of their owners and other pack mates. But take them out of that element and start throwing a lot of stressors at them, and they fall apart. 

We must also remember that there are 2 components to what is commonly referred to as "weak nerves"; threshold and recovery. Threshold being the amount of stimulus required to get a reaction, recovery being just that.. how quickly the dog recovers and returns to business as usual. IMO, nerve strength is better judged by recovery than threshold alone. Some dogs are more reactive than others... they are more sound sensitive, higher levels of suspicion, and just a bit more hair trigger than others. Just as with people.. some people startle easily, others are very difficult to startle. A reactive dog isn't necessarily a weak nerved dog IF he recovers quickly. He may not be the best choice for certain families, but he's not necessarily weak nerved. It's the dog who once triggered displays extreme behavior and takes a long time to recover, or doesn't recover at all until completely removed from the situation, who is the truly weak nerved dog. Most dogs like this are also lower threshold... so they are triggered easily and then don't recover well... but not all. Some can have high thresholds, but once that threshold is reached they fall apart. 

Environmental influences can also seriously impact the dog's threshold level. Bad experiences with a particular stimulus will artificially create a low threshold for reaction to that stimulus. Likewise, good socialization can through lots of positive experience raise a dog's threshold level, artificially making him less reactive. But how he acts once that threshold is reached, and how quickly or slowly he recovers, is much less suceptible to environmental factors and much more dependent on who the dog is genetically. Of course, dogs can through training be taught to react in a specific way to a specific stimulus, and in this way environment can change the dog's reaction and recovery in that *specific* case and in some ways cover up the weakness in the dog. But training will rarely produce a completely globalized behavior, so when faced with a different stimulus or situation the dog's true colors will still come out. Yet another reason why getting dogs out of the house and familiar routine and throwing a lot of different things at them and seeing how they do is the best way to get a true understanding of the dog's nerve strength.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaGYep, I agree. On the other hand, a dog can be sg in the shelter and sg completely different in two weeks. For better or worse.


Yup. A shelter environment is an extremely stressful one and can take a real toll on a dog's psyche, and skew any attempts to determine his overall nerve and temperament while he's still in that environment. It can take weeks, sometimes months, after being removed from a shelter environment for a dog's true personality to fully come out. This is why so many dogs do make significant changes in personality once removed from that environment. Dogs who appeared a bit schizo in the shelter may be fine once out of it. These dogs still aren't the strongest nerved, as a really strong nerved dog would behave in a sound manner even in a shelter. But they aren't necessarily weak nerved either, especially not if they recover with minimal baggage once removed from the situation, and may turn out to be fine for most people.

The truly odd thing is when a dog appears sound in the shelter, but turns out otherwise after being removed from the shelter. Typically it's a pretty safe assumption to expect that a dog who displays sound nerve under the stress of the shelter environment is sound nerved in general. But that's not always so. Evaluators need to be able to tell if the dog is acting calm and laid back because he truly is that way and his nerves are that strong, or if he's acting that way because he's shell shocked. A dog's reaction can be inhibited because he is completely overwhelmed by the environment, and thus his temperament is nearly impossible to truly gage. A weak nerved dog in an extremely stressful environment, like a shelter, can go into a state of learned helplessness where his nervous system is practically shut down due to overload, so he barely reacts to anything at all. Once put in a less stressful environment, he starts to recover and his true personality comes out, and the dog who used to seem steady and unbothered turns out to be a nerve bag because his system is no longer overloaded so his true reactions surface.




> Originally Posted By: AndreaG Like the one I am not sure if it's fair is the food bowl test with a dog that has been starved for months. I would surely object if someone was trying to take my food away when I'm that hungry. Now do this after years of dependable owners who feed me regularly, and I would be like: OK, whatever.


IMO, that is one of the most stupid tests ever. Those who came up with it and advocate it have absolutely no understanding of the canine psychology behind resource guarding behavior (or the simple fact that in a canine society, resource guarding is allowed and pestering any dog... even a lower ranking one... while he's eating is a huge taboo) and how easy it is to work with. Though working with it starts by NOT pestering the dog while he's eating.

The thought of how many dogs are being labled as aggressive or dangerous, and subsequently PTS, because of this stupid test and the misinterpretation of canine behavior that it leads to makes me sick.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: debbieb
> 
> an example. what if someone got a pup from a stable reputable line. they socialized it from the time it was a pup, did classes continually throughout that time, went everywhere did everything right, never had any negative encounters, and the pup still showed nervousness in situations at say 9-10 months old.
> 
> debbie


Adolescence can be an interesting time for determining nerve strength.

If a puppy has always showed nerve weakness, and continues to do so consistently over a long period of time, that would indicate weak nerves. But again, one needs to look at the overall behavioral pattern of the dog, and not put too much weight on isolated incidents, and look to recovery as a better indicator of nerve strength than threshold.

Often times during adolescence though, young dogs will go through periods of apparent nerve weakness which may or may not be actual nerve weakness. These are commonly referred to as "fear periods" though I think that is an over simplification. This is where knowing the typical temperamental characteristics of the individual bloodlines, and developmental stages of those lines, is important.

Many dogs, particularly of certain bloodlines, have higher degrees of sharpness and suspicion than others. What often happens when a dog begins to mature is those characteristics come out sooner than others. A young dog begining to experience feelings of sharpness or suspicion before he has the mental maturity, fully developed confidence, and positive life experiences to help him deal with those feelings can overreact and thus appear "nervey" until the rest of his brain matures and catches up.

While it's generally safe to assume that a dog who appears of strong nerve throughout puppyhood and adolescence is indeed strong nerved, it's not always accurate to assume that a pup or adolescent who exhibits some nervey behavior at certain times is weak nerved because it may just be a case of unbalanced mental maturation.

To give an example. We have a nice young Czech male in our SchH club. The first few times he came out, he appeared to be a very nice young dog. A few weeks later (I belive he was 8 or 9 months old at the time) he was showing some very squirrely behavior.. barking and lunging and hackling, people couldn't get near him. Very fearful, concerning, dangerous behavior. But this was somewhat of a new development for him. According to his owner, he hadn't been that way when younger, we hadn't seen it his first couple weeks at training, and this behavior had just recently started. It wasn't isolated to club, but he was acting that way towards strangers in general, anywhere she took him.

Knowing this bloodline can have a sharp side, and knowing this was a recent development and not a long term pattern of behavior, we decided to give him some time to see if he snapped out of it before making any decisions on whether or not to continue pursuing SchH with him. We expected he would and that it was a case of his suspicion suddenly coming out before he was really mentally able to handle it, so he was overreacting. A fear period. For the next couple of months she continued to socialize him (going back to having people just toss him treats from afar) in public and at club. All he did at club was play, socialize, get some treats and then go home again.

A few weeks ago they arrived, and he came bouncing out of the car, tail wagging, wanting to run up and greet everyone. A completely different dog. With time and patience, the rest of his brain caught up in development and he'd developed a filter for his reactions and had learned some judgment. That sharpness is still there and could be triggered, but is no longer being triggered in inappropriate situations. He's now as social and friendly as could be in normal situations, and is making excellent progress in training. Anyone who'd seen him a couple months ago would have considered him a weak nerved dog to the point of being dangerous. Anyone seeing him today would never think such a thing, and probably would have a hard time believing it was the same dog.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Excellent in depth posts as always, Chris!! 

What about if a dog is dog reactive? For example, Anton does bark and sometimes hackles when sees another dog. He is not dog aggressive and will get along with other dogs if introduced properly at the beginning, but the strange dogs may be a trigger.

For example, yesterday on our walk off leash we suddently run into two people with their dogs on leash. They appeared out of nowhere and I was startled myself. Anton started barking and moved towards them, tail high, hackles up, big boy bark, but he came back to me when called so I put him on leash and we passed by those people and dogs. He didn't bark when on leash but had his hackles up. What does this say about his nerves?


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

<span style="color: #3333FF">Very interesting discussion. Great posts Chris.


So what do you think about a dog who was very shy/timid (seamingly without past bad experiences) that is "getting over" her fears? Is she genetically fearful or what I like to call hypersensitive? </span>


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

When KC was about a year old we were at the park and decided to head down and watch some older folks playing Bocce. We sat on/by the picnic table under the pavillion. When they were done three ladies came over to see KC. 

Lady 1: When the lady asked to pet her, KC looked to me for permission, left her sit and walked a couple steps forward to the lady. Lady said, "I have ALWAYS loved Shepherds and used to have them. I still would but my apartment will not allow them. Such awesome dogs." (KC returned to my side and sat again)

Lady 2: Asked to pet KC, KC looked for permission but STAYED sitting next to me. Head a little lower, tip of her tail slowly wagging as lady 2 approached her. Lady 2, "I LOVE dogs but have always been a little intimidated by big dogs. But she is just so beautiful and polite I wanted to say hi to her." KC remained sitting at my side, head a little higher, tip of her tail slowly wagging. 

Lady 3 was very nervous: She too asked to pet KC but was very timid, nervous, fearful. I looked down to my side to give KC the ok but KC was behind me, crouched down, ears pinned back, eyes very soft, head very low barely peeking around my legs. Many people would take one look at her and claim her to be a shy/fearful/weak-nerved dog. Quite honestly, it took me the longest time to figure it out. As the lady approached, KC retained her position behind me but streched her head LOW and in front to receive the attention, ears back and a very soft, no-eye contact with the lady, gentle expression. As the lady stood back up she was MUCH more relieved. "I was just a child in the south and remember German Shepherds being used to break up marches and attacking people. I have ALWAYS been terrified of them since I was bit as a child. Your girls just seemed so sweet I had to come meet her." 

Many people would have misread in KC with lady number 3 as being shy when in reality she was throwing EVERY calming signal in the dog world to a person that was obviously frightened and facing one of her worst fears (lady 3's words not mine). Basically this was HUGE for this lady. KC rarely seeks attention from ANYONE human or critter but she has a certain knack for helping people (and dogs) to get over their fears of dogs (or GSD in particular). 

All of these ladies met KC within a 5 minute time period. To me KC displayed PERFECT GSD nerve/temperament in all three scenerios. (Among many other situations over the years).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Chris this really should be a "sticky" you and TIm have really put out there info to think about..

I really like your adolescent post,,gave me food for thought with my own young dog that unfortunately, had some negative experiences that I thought would mess her up for life, (my fault not hers) but thankfully, she has a pretty fast recovery and we've reworked things so I don't think it will be lasting damage..

just wanted to say, GREAT posts!


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## SpeedBump (Dec 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild jump out from behind a bush and startle the dog and see how he reacts, etc...


My recently adopted 7 year old dog would probably attack if not leashed (in my backyard) and would certainly lunge and bark ferociously. Nerves or just a defensive behavior?




> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> In all cases when trying to judge nerves in a dog, it is best to remove the dog from familiar surroundings. Place the dog in a strange, neutral environment with no comfort of home and owner or other pack mates to provide security, and then see how he reacts.


I would expect a lot of dogs without their owner might react badly, strong nerved or not, if does not know the environment or people it is placed with for the test. Or am I way off base?

Mark


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You are right Mark, a lot of dogs would react negatively(unsure, uneasy, somewhat fearful) in a new environment....but it is because they have weak nerves which is a German Shepherd major fault!!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

this afternoon while taking Ty, 9 months, for a walk on the flexi, he suddenly barked and hackled. I looked in the direction he was looking and the neighbor was hunched over his garbage readying it to go out while in the garage, we live in a semi so this is attached to our garage. We could only see a hunched man from the rear. I knew who it was and Ty showed no fear but was pulling to investigate so I called out and went over. He turned and stood and Ty licked and wagged his tail and was totally under control. 
I think that was perfect, he alerted, then wanted to investigate and was still friendly and never once hesitated. Then he met the kids on the walk with normal ease.


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