# Your thoughts on this breeder? 2nd attempt!



## Aralez

Alright, so i have decided to not buy from the previous website that i brought to some of your attention since most of you said a lot of red flags went up. Also i have decided to bring the price up a bit to a max of 1500.

If you guys could take a look at this website and let me know your opinions once again it will be greatly appreciated.

www.redsabovetherest.com

They specialize in deep red WGSL GSDs but i am not interested in the deep red but rather a nice balanced pigmentation of tan/red with a solid black saddle. Fortunately they have 1 puppy left from their most recent litter who was last to be picked and is still available. I assume its because he isn't deep red since most people who go to their website are looking for the deep red ( i assume ). He is now 3 months old.


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## KZoppa

personally i think they look good but i'm still learning myself. I like the fact they work their dogs. Well their males at least. I didnt see anything that told me they work their females but i may have missed it.


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## Lucy Dog

I'm not really a fan of any breeder who breeds specifically for certain characteristics like a specific color, a certain size, a certain coat, etc. Kind of a turn off for me, but that's me. That doesn't mean they're bad dogs though.

Looking at the pedigrees of their dogs, I do see some very well known WGSL names. I see some names that are in my dogs pedigree too. Other than that, I'm definitely no expert on reading pedigrees, but it looks like your typical german show line pedigrees.

Where are you located? Are you anywhere near the breeder? Do they have any third party references that you can speak to regarding this breeder and their dogs outside of this forum? What are you goals for the dog?

ETA: Some of those pictures look to be photoshopped a bit to enhance that red coat. Maybe it's just me though, but something about those photos make me think they're photoshopped.


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## Lucy Dog

Too late to edit my last post again, but in your other thread... it looks like Robin (robinhuerta) reached out and told you she knows a breeder in your price range with a litter due very soon. 

Did you ever get around to speaking to her about it? If i was looking for a show line puppy, she would be the person I listen to when it comes to those lines. Her reputation speaks for itself.


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## Aralez

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm not really a fan of any breeder who breeds specifically for certain characteristics like a specific color, a certain size, a certain coat, etc. Kind of a turn off for me, but that's me. That doesn't mean they're bad dogs though.
> 
> Looking at the pedigrees of their dogs, I do see some very well known WGSL names. I see some names that are in my dogs pedigree too. Other than that, I'm definitely no expert on reading pedigrees, but it looks like your typical german show line pedigrees.
> 
> Where are you located? Are you anywhere near the breeder? Do they have any third party references that you can speak to regarding this breeder and their dogs outside of this forum? What are you goals for the dog?
> 
> ETA: Some of those pictures look to be photoshopped a bit to enhance that red coat. Maybe it's just me though, but something about those photos make me think they're photoshopped.


I agree i also thought it may be a little edited to enhance the redness but that's a good thing for me because it means they aren't as red as they appear since im not interested in that deep red color anyway. But its also a negative because i guess its sorta deceiving to the customers.

I am located only 2 hours away from them and I'm planning on going down there these couple days. But still, I'm very new to all of this so i highly value the opinions of this experienced forum, above my own.

One goal...my best friend!


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## Aralez

Lucy Dog said:


> Too late to edit my last post again, but in your other thread... it looks like Robin (robinhuerta) reached out and told you she knows a breeder in your price range with a litter due very soon.
> 
> Did you ever get around to speaking to her about it? If i was looking for a show line puppy, she would be the person I listen to when it comes to those lines. Her reputation speaks for itself.


I did get in contact with the owner of the litter. Unfortunately the dam of the litter had too much sable in her black saddle and i want a solid black saddle. She told me that she cannot guarantee that any of them will have a solid black saddle. This might sound a little "weak" but im specific with what i want. I would be dissapointed to spend that much money and not get what i want in the end.


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## Lucy Dog

You mean a bitch stripe? It's pretty common in the show lines and come out as the adult coat comes in. I'm no expert, but I don't think anyone can guarantee a dog won't have some kind of bitch stripe, especially with the show lines. It's that common.

Are you looking to show? If not, are you willing to risk temperament and health issues for a guarantee of a solid black saddle? I know I wouldn't be, but that's just my take on it. Just throwing that out there.

As for the pictures being photoshopped, I definitely look at that as deceiving. Especially when their whole selling point is "reds above the rest". But go there and meet their dogs. You going there doesn't mean you have to buy a puppy. Go there and see what they have to offer.


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## Aralez

Lucy Dog said:


> You mean a bitch stripe? It's pretty common in the show lines and come out as the adult coat comes in. I'm no expert, but I don't think anyone can guarantee a dog won't have some kind of bitch stripe, especially with the show lines. It's that common.
> 
> Are you looking to show? If not, are you willing to risk temperament and health issues for a guarantee of a solid black saddle? I know I wouldn't be, but that's just my take on it. Just throwing that out there.
> 
> As for the pictures being photoshopped, I definitely look at that as deceiving. Especially when their whole selling point is "reds above the rest". But go there and meet their dogs. You going there doesn't mean you have to buy a puppy. Go there and see what they have to offer.


Of course i wouldn't risk temperament and health for a solid black saddle. But cant i get both? I understand that no one can guarantee that stripe but she seems to have a lot more than just a stripe (pic below). I'm interested in a male though, and since its called a bitch stripe should the male not have it? I know I've noticed that its mostly the Dams that have it but im worried that its so much that it will get passed on the the male as well.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&...&th=132ccad986dbf3d7&attid=0.4&disp=inline&zw


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## Lucy Dog

Don't let the name fool you - males have bitch stripes too. Again, it's very common with the show lines - both males and females. 

Can you post the picture here directly? That link isn't working.


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## GSDElsa

If you are that picky about color get an adult from a breeder or find a nice wgsl rescue. Seriously no breeder is going to guarantee things like exactly what that sale is going to look like.


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## Aralez

I understand. Im not asking for a guarnatee im asking for a pretty good chance that it wont have it. 

Anyway, we are getting off topic. I need more feedback on the link i provided in my first post please!

Here it is again:

www.redsabovetherest.com


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## wolfstraum

Threads evolve just as any face to face discussion. Your parameters are specific and limited by price...you have to find lines that keep pigment....you have to have a puppy at a price point...and it has to be a good breeder not a BYB or overly commercial breeder who is not trying to breed to standard...so it is like the old adage...you can have fast and good, you can have good and cheap, you can have fast and cheap - but you can't have fast cheap and good!!!! Talk to Robin about the litter she knows...some lines keep the black better than others....I know an imported Kirchental dog locally who is 3 and nearly a blanket with black face...so they are out there...but importing is going to cost many more $$$

Lee


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## MaggieRoseLee

WHile I agree that I prefer some colors over other (love those sables) I also know that the health and temperament WITH A BREEDER WHO'S BREEDING PROGRAM/PLAN IS ONE I AGREE WITH and will support with my $$$$$$ is even more important at this point. 

I don't look at the $$$$ spent on a puppy/dog as being for the pet that shows up at my house as much at $$$$$ put into a breeding program I agree with, I support, and I want to continue for years to come.

So while I would also tend to look at lines with alot more sables in it  fact is, if the best puppy for me and my lifestyle/background/experience was a blanket back, then that's what would come into my house!

My relationship with a breeder, the support from the breeder FOR THE LIFE OF MY DOG, and their long term goals are what are the priorities for me at this point. Just too many 'good' dogs out there and 'pretty dogs' and 'ok' breeders. I want the breeder who get's ME and I get THEM!


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## Liesje

Nobody's going to guarantee against a bitch stripe, that's impossible. My Nikon has a solid black saddle as does one of his sisters (long coat). All the other dogs in his litter that I've seen in person or seen pictures of have bitch stripes/salt-and-pepper in their saddle (though they all are very red, very good color from both the sire and dam).









If you insist on a dog that doesn't have it, get a dog that's 2 years old or older.

As far as the link, I'd go check out the breeder. I didn't see any red flags big enough to write them off based on a web site. If it were me looking for a puppy, I'd be curious why the males have their titles and the females appear to not have any. I did like that they were using some dogs from their own breedings, not just buying dogs and breeding them. To me they look like nice WG show line dogs but I'd have to go out and meet them to get a better feel for their temperaments and the goals of the breeding program.


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## BR870

Don't want a bitch stripe? Get a sable...  Kidding

Seriously though, you are being kinda picky about what is, when you get down to it, a living being. Bitch stripes happen. Imperfections happen. I promise you, even the people on here with the best most titled dogs will tell you that there are things about them that they wish were different. Some may be closes than others to "the perfect dog", but not one of them is...

I think Wolfstraum summed it up best. Fast, cheap, quality... Pick any two. Or in this case maybe it should be Health/Temperament, Appearance, Price... Pick any two


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## Danielle609

Lies...off topic, but if I haven't ever told you before, I think that Nikon is very handsome! As well as the others too!


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree (about nikon and NO ONE can guarantee what a puppy is going to end up totally looking like..Look at some of the pics of members that have posted puppy and adult pics, some have tremendous amount of color/patterning change.

I also have color preferences, but they are third on the list compared to temperament and health..Sometimes ya gotta 'give', if you want a puppy, otherwise as others have suggested, go with an adult, you get what you see.


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## Liesje

Nothing wrong with *wanting* a dog to have a solid black saddle but trying to find a breeder that will *guarantee* it is a waste of time and if it really is a deal breaker for the OP then we can't probably help. The best you can do is look at the parents and what they have already produced. If you find dogs to your taste, see if there are repeat breedings. But, this will take time and research. If it's really THAT important you will probably have to do a lot of research yourself because most people even breeders of show line dogs don't care, as it is absolutely not a fault. Also be careful to not just go by photos, they are easy to alter and enhance.


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## Emoore

The dam of the puppy you're considering, Leah vom Rotterbarental, doesn't show to have a hip certification and neither does her dam. This doesn't mean they _don't_ have it; it might just not have gotten entered into the database. Something to ask the breeder about. I wouldn't pay $1500 for a dog whose mother and grandmother didn't have hip x-rays. 
Also, read that 5 year guarantee carefully. It sounds great on paper, but some require you to feed some special food or supplement for the rest of the dog's life that they so-conveniently happen to sell, or only guarantee against _life-threatening_ problems or _crippling_ dysplasia.


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## robinhuerta

This is the female that we co-own with the owner of the litter....and is the mother of the litter.
For WGSL female, she actually has very good, strong pigment in both her face and saddle, and comes from a mother exhibiting the same.
Although most bitches will and do have "ticking" or a "bitch stripe" as many call it.....the overall black saddle is very apparent and full.
No reputable or honest breeder can "guarantee" against a possible "ticking" in color of ANY dog they produce.....not from the "saddle" color varieties anyway.....besides being non important in the welfare and temperament of the breed.


























I wish the best for the OP......I hope he/she finds the "perfect" puppy.


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## Danielle609

Robin...she is beautiful!! I also looked up a picture of the stud that you had mentioned in the other post. He is very nice too! I can't wait until I am ready for a pup Robin, the dogs that you produce are just amazing! Still a little heart broken that I won't be getting a Cuervo pup...and I remind DH of that daily (sometimes a few times a day  ) But I have no doubt that whatever breeding I eventually get a pup from will be top notch  (Hubby really, really likes Ivan. Which I admit he is a hot stud :wub: )


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## sitstay

Since there is no way to guarantee color, the best advice for the OP is to go with the best breeder possible. 

If this were me, I would go with the breeder who had been recommended by someone I had respect for. Someone like Robin Huerta, who has a wonderful reputation (one that has even made it all the way to the wilds of Idaho) and puts their money where their mouth is. That kind of referral is priceless. And if your other considerations can be meet there, such as price and reputation, then a concern about how black the saddle will be wouldn't even make it on a list of pros and cons...because NOBODY can honestly qualify something like that in every puppy they produce. And if it can't be done, why use that lack to turn away from a breeder that actually CAN offer you everything else you want and need?

I have to make another comment about the color thing. I'm sorry, but I have to! There are some West German Showline breeders out there that are not honest about their dogs. They color enhance photos on websites to give their dogs a deeper red, a blacker black. Some have even been known to dye their dogs to give the impression of a solid black saddle. So even those that might look like they have great pigment in their dogs may not be able to produce it it real life. 

Good luck in your puppy hunt. Be a smart shopper!
Sheilah


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## msvette2u

Or get an adult whose colors are "set" so to speak.

For instance, in rescue, we have folks who want a certain puppy but need it to be a certain size, and since often we have no history at all on parentage, we recommend either going with another rescue who knows the parentage of the puppy(ies) in question or else adopt an adult that is fully grown. 

Since GSDs colors can often be deceiving when they are puppies (check out GunnerGSD's photos if you don't believe it!) you may ought to go with an adult so you can see it's "adult" colors


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## selzer

That ticking is part of the beauty of the saddle back markings. It is not a fault at all. And the puppies on that site were born August 2nd, 8-2 to 10-4 is 2 months, not three months.


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## Freestep

First of all, the "bitch stripe" is less common in males than in females, especially if the dog is left intact... so you have that in your favor. I know you are just exploring your options right now, but I would seriously consider the pup Robin recommended above all others.

Now, on to this breeder you linked to: personally, I think any breeder who has color as a primary focus is barking up the wrong tree. And I don't see titles or hip ratings on any of the females.

Maybe I'm nit-picky, but this statement bothers me, this whole bit about "convenience" makes it look more like a puppy-selling business than a serious breeding program.

"*We are conveniently located 7 minutes off of interstate 10 in Beautiful Cherry Valley Riverside County, Southern CA near LA, Orange, San Bernardino and San Diego Counties. You are welcome to visit us and our German Shepherd dogs and puppies with an appointment. We offer shipping and accept MC/Visa for your convenience."*


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## Gretchen

msvette2u said:


> Or get an adult whose colors are "set" so to speak.
> 
> For instance, in rescue, we have folks who want a certain puppy but need it to be a certain size, and since often we have no history at all on parentage, we recommend either going with another rescue who knows the parentage of the puppy(ies) in question or else adopt an adult that is fully grown.
> 
> Since GSDs colors can often be deceiving when they are puppies (check out GunnerGSD's photos if you don't believe it!) you may ought to go with an adult so you can see it's "adult" colors


I totally agree. I thought our girl was going to be very black, as it turns out she is a beautiful red and black and developing some tan highlights on her back, so beautiful on the beach at sunset. There are at least 3 German Shepherd Rescues in CA, Nor Cal - Bay area, LA area and Sacramento if you really want to see a certain color type in an adult.

I know many people have their puppies shipped to them, but I am so glad we were able to find a breeder within a decent driving distance so we could pick out our own pup. I let my daughter pick out the pup as I was too emotional about losing our old dog who was a sable coat. I knew it was a bad idea to choose a dog based on its coloring and not personality. So my daughter chose the puppy that kept coming back and interacting with her. Our breeder also included 4 free training classes and vaccinations in the cost and was very supportive when we had questions. I don't know if you'll get that service if you buy from out of the area.


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## Jack's Dad

I don't like that they have an adult dog that will be 9 in January and they want to find a home with a male to be her forever home. I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like it's someone else's dog. If it is their dog they should be it's forever home. They want 500 dollars for it. Unless there is a real good reason I don't like to see dogs that old having to go to new homes.

To the Op I think you have too (many have to haves). Who cares if you get the perfect color if the dog turns out to have bad nerves or temperament. Can you have it all at that price? Yes. Can you win in Las Vegas? Yes.
The odds in both cases are not real good. IMO


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## Kayos and Havoc

I like the males, some nice pedigrees, but I see no info on the females, no OFA's, no pedigrees etc. If you wnat 'just a pet' this breeder is probably oky. But IMHO 'even a pet' should have good hips behind it. 

My nuetered male WGSL (Havoc)has a bitch stripe and it really adds to his beauty I think. He is in my avatar. 

I would double check the referenced breeder Robin past to you. I would trust her opinion.


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## selzer

If you want a schutzhund dog, buy from a breeder whose focus is schutzhund.
if you want a show dog, buy from a breeder whose focus is showing.
If you want a dog with specific coloring, buy from a breeder whose focus is color.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't like that they have an adult dog that will be 9 in January and they want to find a home with a male to be her forever home. I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like it's someone else's dog. If it is their dog they should be it's forever home. They want 500 dollars for it. Unless there is a real good reason I don't like to see dogs that old having to go to new homes.
> 
> To the Op I think you have too (many have to haves). Who cares if you get the perfect color if the dog turns out to have bad nerves or temperament. Can you have it all at that price? Yes. Can you win in Las Vegas? Yes.
> The odds in both cases are not real good. IMO


Breeders should keep every dog that produced for them until it dies. Breeders should take back every dog from anyone who suddenly finds themselves unable or willing to care for the dog. Breeders should keep every dog with a physical or temperament problem -- don't pass your problems off on others. Breeders should breed for the future and hold back dogs out of every breeding to go forward with. And, breeders should only have one or two dogs so they can give them the time and homelife they deserve. :thinking:

Somehow I just cannot figure out the algebra, geometry, or calculus involved in this calculation. Will it be imaginary numbers, or irrational numbers we are dealing with?

If you have a nine year old bitch, either a bitch who has been in your breeding program, or a bitch that someone returned to you, well what would you rather? That they leave her in a kennel for her remaining 4-5 years? That they euthanize her? That they put an ad on craigslist and give her away for free to people who will sell her to a lab, turn her loose in a junk yard, or use her for a bait dog? 

$500 is not a lot of money, but it is generally more than what a scoundrel will pay. They would probably move on the price tag, but probably only want serious inquiries about her. 

It is not hard to manage an older female in your kennel, but if the right home comes along for one of them, it is sometimes unselfish for the breeder to let her go to a family who will make much of her.


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## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> Breeders should keep every dog that produced for them until it dies. Breeders should take back every dog from anyone who suddenly finds themselves unable or willing to care for the dog. Breeders should keep every dog with a physical or temperament problem -- don't pass your problems off on others. Breeders should breed for the future and hold back dogs out of every breeding to go forward with. And, breeders should only have one or two dogs so they can give them the time and homelife they deserve. :thinking:
> 
> Somehow I just cannot figure out the algebra, geometry, or calculus involved in this calculation. Will it be imaginary numbers, or irrational numbers we are dealing with?
> 
> If you have a nine year old bitch, either a bitch who has been in your breeding program, or a bitch that someone returned to you, well what would you rather? That they leave her in a kennel for her remaining 4-5 years? That they euthanize her? That they put an ad on craigslist and give her away for free to people who will sell her to a lab, turn her loose in a junk yard, or use her for a bait dog?
> 
> $500 is not a lot of money, but it is generally more than what a scoundrel will pay. They would probably move on the price tag, but probably only want serious inquiries about her.
> 
> It is not hard to manage an older female in your kennel, but if the right home comes along for one of them, it is sometimes unselfish for the breeder to let her go to a family who will make much of her.


Breeders should sell or rehome ther breeding bitches or males they are no longer going to use at the youngest age possible. 

If a nice home comes along for a nine year old female that also needs a male companion in the home fine. I have no problem with that. Good Luck.

Why you always picking on me selzer.

All I'm saying is it would be nice if older dogs were not shuffled around whenever possible.
There are far too many older dogs in pounds and rescue.


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## Liesje

I looked at the bitch for sale, looked like a nice dog, didn't strike me as being all that old but maybe I was mistaken?


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Breeders should sell or rehome ther breeding bitches or males they are no longer going to use at the youngest age possible.
> 
> If a nice home comes along for a nine year old female that also needs a male companion in the home fine. I have no problem with that. Good Luck.
> 
> Why you always picking on me selzer.
> 
> All I'm saying is it would be nice if older dogs were not shuffled around whenever possible.
> There are far too many older dogs in pounds and rescue.


I am picking on the attitude, not you. Lots of people think if you are trying to rehome an older dog, you are the scum of the earth. It might be what's best for the dog. I think the bit about a male companion, probably means that she will do fine in a home with a dog, but not in a home with a bitch, and the ideal situation would be one male canine in the home, since most people work, and no one wants to see the dog go into a situation where they will be totally alone for hours on end.

People always assume the worst when it comes to breeders, and put on them impossible expectations. And making a judgement on a breeder due to the fact that they are trying to find a home for an older bitch, is a hard pill to swallow. Lots of breeders help to rehome dogs that are not even of their breeding. Some of these finish their lives with these breeders because it is not easy for them to find homes for old animals either. Not all of them are waving a big banner, saying look at me, look at me, I am helping to find this old dog a home. But once you put your shingle out as a breeder, people come out of the woodwork trying to get you to take dogs they suddenly can't keep anymore.


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## Jack's Dad

Liesje said:


> I looked at the bitch for sale, looked like a nice dog, didn't strike me as being all that old but maybe I was mistaken?


They said she was born in Jan. 2003 and needs a medium to large male in the home she goes to. 

This will probably turn into one of those, "well should they just put her to sleep" then.

It was just an observation about shuffling older dogs around. I would prefer that didn't happen. There are too many that are cast off.


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## Jack's Dad

I don't assume the worst when it comes to breeders.
Lots of people don't want to deal with old dogs or old people. So they send them off basically to die somwhere else than in their home. 

I'm not saying that this breeder is doing that. I simply don't know the reason. It's a nice looking dog but so are a lot of shelter and rescue dogs that are older.


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## robinhuerta

Personally, I think breeders should be responsible for the "golden years" of their breeding dogs. If a great retirement home becomes available....I see no reason that the dog not be offered to it, but on the same breath.....they should never be discarded (or any dog) as old, tattered clothes.

@ the original topic.......I still can't get over wanting a "guarantee" in regards to having a full, black saddle with no "ticking"......
I happened to mention it to my husband.....he thought that I was lying !


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## GermanShepherds6800

Edited photo for selling only color that is not even real. They do NOT title their stock. Look at the mother line on this link:
Leah Vom Rotterbarental - German Shepherd Dog

In my opinion they just breed for puppy pet sales. They have no criteria to select breeding stock other than color and registration.


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## Danielle609

robinhuerta said:


> @ the original topic.......I still can't get over wanting a "guarantee" in regards to having a full, black saddle with no "ticking"......
> I happened to mention it to my husband.....he thought that I was lying !


When I get a pup I have a short list of guarantees that I need...but don't worry my price range is a little higher

1) must NEVER go to the bathroom in the house
2) will NEVER chew anything other than its own toys
3) won't bark unless on command

Do you think that you can guarantee that for me Robin?


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## bocron

Yeah, I didn't like that Leah dog's page either. All the color is off, and if the breeder is falsifying pics to make the dog look redder, what else are they not being honest about. None of the dogs that I saw with the Rotterbarental kennel name were titled or seemed to have any certifications. Maybe they have them, but they aren't listed.
So funny how someone can focus in on some physical feature. I had to walk in the next room to see if my male Highline dog has a "bitch stripe" LOL. Never really thought about it or noticed that as a specific thing, but then again we have mostly had WL dogs and you don't see saddles in those lines generally.


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## robinhuerta

Oh sure Danielle......and his/her poop won't smell either.
What is crazy .....you'd be surprised on how many people may actually "think" that a puppy shouldn't do the things you mentioned....._egads._


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## Lucy Dog

I want a puppy that can do my laundry and pay my bills. Can you guarantee that, Robin? I'll take two if you can.


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## Aralez

Lucy Dog said:


> I want a puppy that can do my laundry and pay my bills. Can you guarantee that, Robin? I'll take two if you can.


That's quite enough of that. I don't appreciate the rude sarcastic comments. Yes it is an important factor to me. I have OCD and the ticking stands out a LOT to me and is very out of place to my eye.

I already stated that i understand a guarantee cant be made and still there is 2 pages of people telling me something that has already been said and acknowledged. All i want is a comforting good chance that it wont happen - and if it does, oh well, we tried our best. Obviously it can happen with ANY pup even if both parents don't have any ticking at all, somewhere in the pedigree it might have been there and so there is a chance the pup might get it. I understand this, I'm not a child.

As for those of you who did submit your opinion to the subject of this thread, i appreciate your input. Thank you, it has been very helpful.

I still have Robins recommendation as an available option. The pups haven't even been born yet, so I'm still going to be in contact with the owner of the litter. She offered a fair price but the added shipping on top of it puts me as far as i can go.

I will be going to go to Rotterbarentals property to check them out on Thursday. And thanks to who ever pointed out the age of the puppy in question. I dont know how i made the mistake of thinking the pup was 3 months but i thought that up to the point of reading that correction. It was a huge relief because i was a bit bummed that hes not as tiny as i can get him! 

Once again thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. Even if it was off topic, with the exception of some childish sarcasm, i enjoyed reading peoples opinions on the matter of the old dog up for adoption, etc.

-Jack


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## Lucy Dog

Sorry, man. Wasn't trying to make fun of you in anyway... sorry if you took it that way. Just made a joke with regards to where this thread was going... nothing personally about you. 

But if you do find a dog who can do my laundry and pay bills... please, let me know. I'm definitely still interested.


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## robinhuerta

Jack
The sarcasm is directed to the many unpredictable "requirements or guarantees" that buyers choose to request from breeders.
The list is many....and with each one (including yours) it gets even more profound at times.
Besides the health & temperament issues that can be associated in this breed...breeders are being asked to warranty, guarantee and "magically" produce pups of perfect color, housebroken and well mannered from birth.......
Sorry if you felt the sarcasm wasn't warranted.....*but in all actuality.....*those types of " unrealistic requirements" are and can be a simple reason(s) for some irresponsible owner/buyer to "dump" a puppy or dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Jack, I have been a member here a long time. The response you have gotten is one reason why I do not post much anymore. I understand that you are asking out of a need to know. It may be misguided but the only way to fix that is through education not sarcasm. 

Best of luck to you.


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## selzer

Using OCD as an excuse for wanting perfect coloring in your dog is, from a breeders point of view, a HUGE red flag. I mean, what if you got a new couch and suddenly the dog's graying hair color is now clashing with the new couch or carpet? Well, something has to go. And while it may shock you, there are people who dump their dogs for no less. 

There is no way ANYONE can guaranty your dog's color when it is a puppy. For one thing, that red may pale from diet. How does a breeder guaranty something that can be affected by diet? The ticking may be more likely if you neuter, should we require that you not neuter your dog? 

And frankly, from a breeding standpoint, if you are that anal about the color of the dog, I do not WANT to sell you a dog. I had a call from a gal that wanted a black and red puppy. I sent pictures of the sire and dam, and explained as well as I could the coloring of each. But she was still uncertain. Right then, I decided that I did not want to sell her a puppy. Think about it. Black and Red and Black and Tan are only a matter of the shade of brown in the dog's light coloring. It does not affect temperament, or health, instinct, drive, intelligence, responsiveness to the handler -- anything that makes our dogs a great companion and working dog. So I cut off negotiating with her. I told her that I was sure she would find and awesome puppy but that I did not have one that would suit her. 

I would suggest to you a black dog or a white dog, but even they can have bleed through, or the white can have cream, etc. 

Maybe a lab or a golden or an Irish setter is a better choice for you -- that is not sarcastic, those breeds are solid colors -- no ticking as far as I know.


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## msvette2u

> Sorry if you felt the sarcasm wasn't warranted.....but in all actuality.....those types of " unrealistic requirements" are and can be a simple reason(s) for some irresponsible owner/buyer to "dump" a puppy or dog.


Yep...unrealistic. Completely.
I understand wanting a certain color of dog, we chose our dog (a rescue - he still could change) based on his dark face/coloration, but he's ours now and I won't freak completely out or get rid of him if he develops more tan or even a "bitch stripe", I took it for granted some GSDs were just colored like that. 
The temperament of the dog should matter above color (or more specifically, color "fading) as long as you're going with a responsible breeder who breeds for good temperaments - in colors you like.


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## onyx'girl

You won't find a bitch stripe very often if ever in a working line.
Goldens are different coloration between the lines as well.


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## Liesje

If the ticking/bitch stripe is a real problem you could always color the hair. I mean, you can't do that for a show but if it *really* is a bother and you don't plan to show the dog...


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## msvette2u

:laugh: I thought about that but figured people would think I was being facetious...or I'd get banned!!!


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## Lucy Dog

onyx'girl said:


> You won't find a bitch stripe very often if ever in a working line.


Their entire coat is like a giant bitch stripe!! Well, unless you go all black.


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## onyx'girl

They come in B&T or red too....Red isn't just a showline gift.


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## Lucy Dog

A black and red working line? Black and tan... Yes, but black and red? Not too sure if I've ever seen one of those. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but that's got to be pretty hard to find.

And I wouldn't exactly call that red pigment and the show lines as a whole a gift.


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## onyx'girl

Some do think the red is special.
Personally, I like a deep coloring no matter what....blanket/bi's/blacks/ dark sables are stunning~if red is flowing thru it makes it more so!
Yes, they do come in a darker pigment~considered red...here is a rescue that is listed here on the site:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/urgent/168423-denton-tx-bandit-longhair-sable-male.html

Lies's Pan is a red sable, and we train with a couple of Gabor and Sue's pups that are gorgeous reds.


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## BlackthornGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> A black and red working line? Black and tan... Yes, but black and red? Not too sure if I've ever seen one of those. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but that's got to be pretty hard to find.
> 
> And I wouldn't exactly call that red pigment and the show lines as a whole a gift.


Black and red working line dog here... 










And here,


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## BlackthornGSD

And a "red sable" from working/DDR lines.... (daughter of the 2nd dog shown above)....


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## robinhuerta

I do know someone who had "vertigo" pretty bad.....and although she was a dog owner & loved dogs in general.....brindle, spots and sabled dogs, would set off her vertigo....she HAD to own a solid colored dog.
Weird huh?.....hey...THAT I can understand.


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## Lucy Dog

The first set of pics look black and tan to me, but maybe it's just the pictures.

The second set I'd say is a red sable. Georgeous dogs... Both of them. Any czech lines in the second dog or is she all DDR?


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## msvette2u

Wow!
We use 24petwatch chips which have number/letter combos and here a while back we had As and 4s and that made me almost sick to my stomach!

A4A4A...eep!


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## Catu

selzer said:


> And frankly, from a breeding standpoint, if you are that anal about the color of the dog, I do not WANT to sell you a dog. I had a call from a gal that wanted a black and red puppy. I sent pictures of the sire and dam, and explained as well as I could the coloring of each. But she was still uncertain. Right then, I decided that I did not want to sell her a puppy. Think about it. Black and Red and Black and Tan are only a matter of the shade of brown in the dog's light coloring. It does not affect temperament, or health, instinct, drive, intelligence, responsiveness to the handler -- anything that makes our dogs a great companion and working dog. So I cut off negotiating with her. I told her that I was sure she would find and awesome puppy but that I did not have one that would suit her.


I know this will raise a debate, that the OP will be mad and that most members will think I am rude but... You just said it just before I posted the same.

When I raised that litter past year, one of the pups was mine, but I sold him to buy Akela. One guy called me asking for red sables, I talked him about the parents, the litter, the traits I saw in that particular pup but all he cared was for a sable, but not a pale one. I told him the price was twice as much as I was really asking to scare him away. If I were a breeder I wouldn't like to sell a pup to someone who places such a high value on something aesthetic.

Everyone can have the priorities in life that they want, but as much as buyers should look at breeding program that fits what they believe, breeders have the right to place their puppies in homes where what you breed for will be mostly appreciated.


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## BlackthornGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> The first set of pics look black and tan to me, but maybe it's just the pictures.
> 
> The second set I'd say is a red sable. Georgeous dogs... Both of them. Any czech lines in the second dog or is she all DDR?



Both of the black/tans are actually really red, but bright light does wash it out somewhat. 

You can see the red somewhat better in these pictures...































The 2nd black and tan and the sable are Ludwigseck/Grafental bloodlines, so all DDR, nothing Czech.


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## Catu

another black and red working line


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## Lucy Dog

Catu... Is that dog all working or a show/work? Any other pictures of that dog?


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## Lucy Dog

Christine (or anyone for that matter)... Would you consider this dog black and tan or black and red? She's working lines.


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## BlackthornGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Christine (or anyone for that matter)... Would you consider this dog black and tan or black and red? She's working lines.


Looks black/red in these pictures. 

One other thing that's different is that the working dogs don't have as MUCH tan/red area and their individual hairs are generally (not always!) shorter. 

Do I think that these dogs are as red as some of the reddest of the show dogs? No, not in general (although Oda, the red sable, is close).


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## Catu

Lucy Dog said:


> Catu... Is that dog all working or a show/work? Any other pictures of that dog?


All working as far as I know. He was from a client, this is the only other picture I have of him and I haven't seen him since 2008.


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## Lucy Dog

See... I'd always consider these working line dogs more black and tan than red. When I think of red... I think of show line red. Seems more tan to me.

Show line red...that should be a crayon color.


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## Aralez

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Jack, I have been a member here a long time. The response you have gotten is one reason why I do not post much anymore. I understand that you are asking out of a need to know. It may be misguided but the only way to fix that is through education not sarcasm.
> 
> Best of luck to you.



Thank you.


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## Jessiewessie99

I have only seen 1 red sable, and he was at my shelter. Very nice. I want a a Long coated Black and Red WGSL, but if the right dog ended up being another color or not a Long coated I would be happy to take the dog as long as it matched what I was looking for besides color. Color should be the last thing you need to worry about.
I know you want a puppy, just so you know, rescues and shelters do indeed get puppies. So don't disclude them just yet. Rescues and shelters do get papered dogs!

Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck in your search.


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## Aralez

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have only seen 1 red sable, and he was at my shelter. Very nice. I want a a Long coated Black and Red WGSL, but if the right dog ended up being another color or not a Long coated I would be happy to take the dog as long as it matched what I was looking for besides color. Color should be the last thing you need to worry about.
> I know you want a puppy, just so you know, rescues and shelters do indeed get puppies. So don't disclude them just yet. Rescues and shelters do get papered dogs!
> 
> Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck in your search.


Thanks. To me it seems like the temperament and health is much more viable than the specific looks that I'm looking for which is why I'm searching based on that. If the looks match perfectly and the health and temperament doesn't then of course its a no. I'm under the impression that as long as you purchase from a reputable breeder chances of getting the puppy that best fits you are pretty good. So the difficulty of my research at this point is finding a reputable breeder within driving distance at a price range of 1000-1200 to a max of 1500 if everything checks out the way i like, who has both parents with solid black saddles so that the chance of the Male puppy getting the ticking is as low as possible. And if all that works out perfectly and the pup ends up getting the bitch stripe when it grows up, that's fine. I'll know that the breeder and I did the best we could to give me what i want.

Honestly, I've thought about why its such an issue to me. Its pretty trivial, and i wish i didn't feel this way, but i do. I think I've realized why i don't like it so much. No one i know or have known has ever owned a German Shepherd, at least not as long as I've known them. So I've never had a close look. When ever i have seen a German Shepherd I've just taken a casual look and noticed tan/red with a black saddle. If i imagine a German Shepherd in my mind i see a color of tan/red with a black saddle. Its as if its embedded in my head that that's what a German Shepherd should look like. If i ever saw anything apart from that color combination (up until about 3 years ago) i thought it was a mutt! Not a pure bred! Its a mix! I didn't know what a Working Line was. I didn't know anything about them other than they are the best dog breed in the world. If i saw a working line i probably wouldn't have even been able to recognize it as a German Shepherd. I thought it was some dog. So when i see the ticking it throws me off. It doesn't have a "clean" look. Not clean in the terms of dirty, but...cleeean. 

Now, i have this tingling feeling in me about the ticking and sable colors in general...that feeling you get when you don't like something but you sorta kinda feel yourself starting to dig it...? Upon my research i have came across the ticking a lot now and its slowly becoming accustomed to my eye. I think i can safely say im open to a little light ticking. No where close to being open to a full bitch stripe though.



P.S. To those of you who are going to continue attacking me about this (oh before you say it "we aren't attacking you!" ok...i feel attacked.) obsession with the color thing..save it. Ive heard enough. I'm trying to get over it. Thank you.


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## GSDElsa

Seriously if this really effects your ocd in a negative way, and you only have that budget, rescue an adult from a rescue or from a breeder (retired female).if you truly have ocd and the bitch stripe bothers you its more as simple as saying "oh well I tried." This isn't sarcastic but you are obviously completely focused on color. The only way to satisfy your alleged ocd is to get an adult that is already set in their color.


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## wsmarks

Sounds like czech or DDR is the way for you to go Bro. rich beautiful colors of red and black, with some silver and sable highlights. Good working drives and genetically superior. Good health and good hips in general and longevity.


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## marshies

Aralez said:


> Thanks. To me it seems like the temperament and health is much more viable than the specific looks that I'm looking for which is why I'm searching based on that. If the looks match perfectly and the health and temperament doesn't then of course its a no. I'm under the impression that as long as you purchase from a reputable breeder chances of getting the puppy that best fits you are pretty good. So the difficulty of my research at this point is finding a reputable breeder within driving distance at a price range of 1000-1200 to a max of 1500 if everything checks out the way i like, who has both parents with solid black saddles so that the chance of the Male puppy getting the ticking is as low as possible. And if all that works out perfectly and the pup ends up getting the bitch stripe when it grows up, that's fine. I'll know that the breeder and I did the best we could to give me what i want.
> 
> Honestly, I've thought about why its such an issue to me. Its pretty trivial, and i wish i didn't feel this way, but i do. I think I've realized why i don't like it so much. No one i know or have known has ever owned a German Shepherd, at least not as long as I've known them. So I've never had a close look. When ever i have seen a German Shepherd I've just taken a casual look and noticed tan/red with a black saddle. If i imagine a German Shepherd in my mind i see a color of tan/red with a black saddle. Its as if its embedded in my head that that's what a German Shepherd should look like. If i ever saw anything apart from that color combination (up until about 3 years ago) i thought it was a mutt! Not a pure bred! Its a mix! I didn't know what a Working Line was. I didn't know anything about them other than they are the best dog breed in the world. If i saw a working line i probably wouldn't have even been able to recognize it as a German Shepherd. I thought it was some dog. So when i see the ticking it throws me off. It doesn't have a "clean" look. Not clean in the terms of dirty, but...cleeean.
> 
> Now, i have this tingling feeling in me about the ticking and sable colors in general...that feeling you get when you don't like something but you sorta kinda feel yourself starting to dig it...? Upon my research i have came across the ticking a lot now and its slowly becoming accustomed to my eye. I think i can safely say im open to a little light ticking. No where close to being open to a full bitch stripe though.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. To those of you who are going to continue attacking me about this (oh before you say it "we aren't attacking you!" ok...i feel attacked.) obsession with the color thing..save it. Ive heard enough. I'm trying to get over it. Thank you.


I understand completely what you are saying, and as a fellow puppy-buyer, can empathize with your point. 

When I initially posted for breeder recommendations, I emphasized health and temperament, and made no mention of looks. A FANTASTIC breeder in my country was recommended to me by all. Do I want a dog from this breeder? YES!! Do I think my dogs will have the best temperament and health? YES! Did I get a dog from this breeder? No. I told the breeder that I wanted a tan/red and saddle-backed GSD, and asked if she had those colors amongst her current lines since she had pictures of them on her website. She told me outright she did not breed for color, and did not have such a dog. She wished me good luck and we went our separate merry ways. Am I still in touch with her and do I still learn from her, yes.

Health and temperament will come out of many reputable breeders. You are spending a lot of money and committing to the next 10+ years of your life. I see nothing wrong with trying to stack all the odds in your favor in terms of gender, lineage, etc.

I am just as shallow, and value a dog that fits my aesthetic preferences as much as you do, so I understand. But I think combining the price point, the health, the temperament, and the specific looks might be difficult. I am looking at the GSD market right now, and my puppy will be close to 2000 including shipping.  

Best of luck to you! Post pictures if you have some luck with your search criteria.


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## Aralez

GSDElsa said:


> Seriously if this really effects your ocd in a negative way, and you only have that budget, rescue an adult from a rescue or from a breeder (retired female).if you truly have ocd and the bitch stripe bothers you its more as simple as saying "oh well I tried." This isn't sarcastic but you are obviously completely focused on color. The only way to satisfy your alleged ocd is to get an adult that is already set in their color.


"Oh well we tried" because its my dog and i will love it to death no matter what. No condition, especially not my light case of ocd, can come in the way of that. It immediately becomes very simple to say "Oh well". Will i be a little bummed? Sure. Ill get over it as soon as i look at his face and he gives me a big wet kiss.



marshies said:


> I understand completely what you are saying, and as a fellow puppy-buyer, can empathize with your point.
> 
> When I initially posted for breeder recommendations, I emphasized health and temperament, and made no mention of looks. A FANTASTIC breeder in my country was recommended to me by all. Do I want a dog from this breeder? YES!! Do I think my dogs will have the best temperament and health? YES! Did I get a dog from this breeder? No. I told the breeder that I wanted a tan/red and saddle-backed GSD, and asked if she had those colors amongst her current lines since she had pictures of them on her website. She told me outright she did not breed for color, and did not have such a dog. She wished me good luck and we went our separate merry ways. Am I still in touch with her and do I still learn from her, yes.
> 
> Health and temperament will come out of many reputable breeders. You are spending a lot of money and committing to the next 10+ years of your life. I see nothing wrong with trying to stack all the odds in your favor in terms of gender, lineage, etc.
> 
> I am just as shallow, and value a dog that fits my aesthetic preferences as much as you do, so I understand. But I think combining the price point, the health, the temperament, and the specific looks might be difficult. I am looking at the GSD market right now, and my puppy will be close to 2000 including shipping.
> 
> Best of luck to you! Post pictures if you have some luck with your search criteria.


Thank you. Yes, it has and will be very difficult. Ive been searching since this time last year. Im going to have to amend some of these requirements of mine a bit and compromise with myself soon because I'm not getting anywhere.


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## KZoppa

OP, i have VERY specific requirements for my next dog. I absolutely adore sable shepherds. I'm not a huge fan of the saddle black black and tans. My current female is a patterned sable, meaning she's sable with a saddle. 

My dream dog is a black sable male on the larger end of the breed standard for weight. This pup will have to have a handler focus from the start that i can build on instead of having to totally start from scratch on. Parents health tested and free of hip and elbow problems and ideally tested to DM and free of that as well. Will have to have the potential to do agility, schutzhund, obedience.... pretty much anything i can do with the dog if i want to and succeed at it. Has to be able to learn to get along with my cats because i intend on always having at least one cat in the house. Has to be good with kids of all ages (with socialization properly i'll win on that front anyway). Aloof with people outside my family with a protective instinct (that i wouldnt know about until the pup was older and probably at full maturity) that can and WILL bark at the door but quiet immediately when i say so (this will require training as will all other things). 

My dream GSD has a world of potential in my world. And in all seriousness, i'm NOT a fan of showlines. For me their coloration is 2nd to last on my list for desireable colors. white GSDs being the very last because me and white clothes dont mix so by the end of the day the dog would probably have some sort of stain on them (lol i'm serious when i say i'm horrible with anything white). 

I've spoken with Robin, several times in fact on POSSIBLY getting a pup from her or someone she recommends. She knows exactly what i'm looking for in terms of personality and desires and its not a big secret on this board that i much prefer sables over "classic" coloration. thats just me. i'm rough around the edges like that. Robin has showlines but her reputation speaks for itself and despite my color prefence, i do have a growing interest in getting a dog from Robin regardless of possible color. 

I can understand on a very high level wanting a specific coloration. I really can. But i can honestly say in my control freak nature, I would glad forfeit the coloring I want if i could find my dog who matches what i'm looking for in personality. The color of the dog will not determine your relationship with the dog. 

There's my peice. Please try not to focus so much on color as what really matters in the end is the health of the dog and the temperment of the dog. As humans, we often spend way too much time judging on looks, even when it comes to animals. 

My suggestion to you...








Sit down and HONESTLY write out a list of desireable personality traits you'd like to have in your puppy or adult. EXCLUDE COLOR COMPLETELY!! Dont even think about color. Color is the least of the worries in determining a family member that will depend on you for 10+ years. If you go to a reputable breeder anyway, THEY will pick the puppy that best matches your needs because they've been with the puppies since birth watching them and learning who they are. They may try to take your color preference into consideration but you could be waiting YEARS for that perfect puppy and i dont know about you, but i'm impatient and years wouldnt be an option for me.


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## Liesje

FWIW most of the working line bi-colors, blankets, and black/tans are black and tan. This is really because on most of them, the area that would be "red" (as far as black and red show lines go) is black. Some of the pictures in this thread show dogs that an SV judge would say lacks red undertone in the parts you can see down the leg. Does it really matter? No, I've seen the judges give this critique and it not effect the dog's placement whatsoever. It doesn't matter to me, but as far as looking at working line color from a showline standpoint and how the judge would critique the color vs. how we feel about it, the "black and red" is rare.


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## BR870

Aralez said:


> P.S. To those of you who are going to continue attacking me about this (oh before you say it "we aren't attacking you!" ok...i feel attacked.) obsession with the color thing..save it. Ive heard enough. I'm trying to get over it. Thank you.


I don't think it is your wanting a dog with no bitch stripe that is causing everyone to pile on... I think what everyone is getting hung up on is that you are being picky in both color and price. If you were willing to pay MORE for such a demand I could understand. But wanting what you want, and expecting to pay less than standard market price comes across as unreasonable IMO.

You know... Beggars can't choose a Gift Horse in the mouth... Or something like that :wild:

If you were to come on and say "I want a black and red/tan puppy with very good pigment and no bitch stripe and I am willing to pay $500 more than a standard showline puppy" I bet you would have alot more recommendations from people about places to look. If for no other reason than because as your price range opens up, so do your available options...


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## Celtic Wolf

*Breeder*

Our dog, a working line, is sable.
His temperament is a greater criteria than his color to us.
Beauty is in the eye for some.
Longtime love comes from the your bond with
the dog - in my case that is his personality, his
Temperament.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I must admit - I like the black and tans, black and reds, and blanket backs. I do not like sable. I have seen many sables, some are lovely some are not. In fact, my not being real fond of sables may affect my choice of breeders for the next pup. 

If I go with working lines I want a female black and tan with moderate drive. If the dog that matched me were sable it may be a show stopper for me. I may be a snob (I don't think I am) but that is my preference. 

I love the WGSL. I like the look of the dog and they are generally a nice moderate dog, except for Havoc, who is over the top drivy. 

I see no problem with the OP wanting something specific in regard to coloring but it is real hard to guarantee no ticking at all. I like the ticking in HAvoc's shoulders, it adds to his beauty.


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't see a problem in wanting something specific either, as I said earlier, I have my color preferances as well. 

However, as kathy said, I don't think any breeder can guarantee no ticking.

We all want the perfect dog, beauty and brains but the fact is, most of us do have dogs that have something we don't particularly like. 

While you have a budget you don't want to really exceed, I guess something to consider is, would you be able to afford a serious medical condition should it crop up? 
I'm not saying you have to spend 5000 bucks on the 'perfect' dog, but no matter the initial price of ANY dog, you have to take into consideration vet costs especially if a medical emergency popped up.

I'm not sure it's been discussed but have you (the OP) ever had a gsd before? Or any dog prior to your search? Just curious.

So many things to consider when getting any animal, and they aren't all perfect tho we wish it could be so.


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## cliffson1

You know me...just plain common sense...with that said ......THERE are no guarantees with puppies....whether it is size, color, angulation, even temperament....you can be reasonably close if you have been breeding the same dogs for 4 or more generations, but thats pretty much it. With that said if you feel that strong about color, look to get an older pup(18 months to 2 years) where the basic characteristics are in place. There is a reason you have been looking for a year to meet all your demands. If it must be a puppy accept that there are no guarantees before you get the pup. Lower the expectations, or increase the age of the dog you want...either will work.


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## Lakl

Something the OP should also consider... You mentioned that the litter Robin suggested wasn't even born yet, so it's still an option. You should know that a litter at that price point coming recommended from a breeder like Robin won't last long, and before you know it, the pups will be spoken for. Just from my personal experience and the heartache I've experienced with my first 2 GSD's and breeders, if I were recommended a pup at that price point from Robin, there would be no thinking twice about it. It could be purple and yellow polka dots! Lol. Seriously, you've been offered a golden ticket...IMO...and the breeders you've inquired about is like choosing between a Dell and an Apple computer at the same price point...


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## Liesje

I would focus on temperament and if the dog develops ticking, dye it. Even a 2 year old dog is no guarantee. My guy just turned 3 and *just* started developing the slightest bit of ticking right on his wither. I would not be surprised if it spread as he ages.


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## selzer

Lakl said:


> Something the OP should also consider... You mentioned that the litter Robin suggested wasn't even born yet, so it's still an option. You should know that a litter at that price point coming recommended from a breeder like Robin won't last long, and before you know it, the pups will be spoken for. Just from my personal experience and the heartache I've experienced with my first 2 GSD's and breeders, if I were recommended a pup at that price point from Robin, there would be no thinking twice about it. It could be purple and yellow polka dots! Lol. Seriously, you've been offered a golden ticket...IMO...and the breeders you've inquired about is like choosing between a Dell and an Apple computer at the same price point...



Yupp, palms sweating, I want, I wwaaant!!!! Purple and yellow polka dots would probably go over great with the nieces too. 

Got to mention too, that cost of shipping is always over and above the cost of the puppy. If it costs me $200 for the flight and 69$ for the approved shipping crate, and 20$ in gas to the airport and back, it will definitely cost the buyer and extra $300 for shipping. Because think about it, if someone drives over, and takes the pup home, they are paying full price for the puppy. I am not giving them $300 off because I did not have to ship it. Course, I have no clue how much it costs to ship a pup as I don't ship puppies. I might drive half way to meet ya, but I prefer to meet the people I sell puppies too. So I don't ship them. I have so few that it is easy for me to follow this rule though. Either way it is a hassle. If it is too hot, you can't ship, too cold, you can't ship, and I would be biting my nails the entire time until the new owners confirmed they have the puppy.


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## s14roller

It's funny b/c I started off the same way...wanting specific this and thats...it drove my breeder crazy. Looks was also basically the top of my list.

If I had to do it again, I'd take character, temperament, intelligence, focus, obedience, etc all over looks. 

I got lucky that I have a beautiful girl...she gets compliments even in classes with other GSDs...but everytime I see a dog that performs obedience better, I realize I would trade the looks for the performance if given the option. With more solid training, my dog will get there also, but it seems to have come easier to some other dogs based on personality, focus, or whatever you want to call it. 

If I were you, I'd also strongly consider getting a young dog ... one that's like 1 year old or something. If I was to do it again, that'd be a route I'd strongly consider. Personality, looks, etc. are all easy to see at that point...you miss the month or 2 of the cute puppy...but they grow so quick...and frankly, dealing with a landshark for 5 months isn't the most fun lol.


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## maxtmill

*red & blacks*

My first GSD was mostly black, very pretty. My next GSD is going to be a red red red & black dog - I just think they are stunning! Can anyone recommend a breeder that has red & black GSDs? I would love to visit their websites & take a look! I see absolutely nothing wrong with looking for a dog of a preferred color. My other dogs are of certain colors, fawn, merle, brindle, cream, etc. There ar5e simply preferences.


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## maxtmill

*red & blacks*

My first GSD was mostly black, very pretty. My next GSD is going to be a red red red & black dog - I just think they are stunning! Can anyone recommend a breeder that has red & black GSDs? I would love to visit their websites & take a look! I see absolutely nothing wrong with looking for a dog of a preferred color. My other dogs are of certain colors, fawn, merle, brindle, cream, etc. There are simply preferences.


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## bocron

maxtmill, it would probably be better if you started your own thread. Also a bit more info other than color would be helpful, where you are, what you would like to pursue with your next GSD, your prior experience, that type of thing.

Annette


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## WestCoastGSD

I know this thread is long since dead and over but I just saw this and wanted to respond. This breeder is my friend and her dogs are in fact the color as pictured on her website, I shot the photos of Leah vom Rotterbarental myself. We showed her female Majenta back when she was 5 months old in a WDA show and Rudiger Mai excused us from the class because he was convinced the dog had been colored, we forced the WDA to take hair samples and test the hair as their entry form had stated they had the right to do, so we enforced it and they tested it and in fact the results of course showed there was no color on the hair, because there was none. Her motherline carries that dark red color and it works similar to a sable gene in that one parent must have been born that color in order to produce it. The puppies are born that dark red if they got the gene, so she will have litters with deep red puppies born and regular black/red like we all get in our litters. I don't want to get into a titling argument, but her females are not titled, but she always breeds to titled males. She sells all her dogs on limited registration all going to pet homes. And by the way the 8 year old female Lucy found an amazing home and travels cross country with her new parents in their very plush RV and actually came by for a visit just last week and is doing superbly. Just wanted to come on here and clear up the color issue regarding her red dogs.  Thanks for listening


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## onyx'girl

WestCoastGSD said:


> I know this thread is long since dead and over but I just saw this and wanted to respond. This breeder is my friend and her dogs are in fact the color as pictured on her website, I shot the photos of Leah vom Rotterbarental myself. We showed her female Majenta back when she was 5 months old in a WDA show and Rudiger Mai excused us from the class because he was convinced the dog had been colored, we forced the WDA to take hair samples and test the hair as their entry form had stated they had the right to do, so we enforced it and they tested it and in fact the results of course showed there was no color on the hair, because there was none. Her motherline carries that dark red color and it works similar to a sable gene in that one parent must have been born that color in order to produce it. The puppies are born that dark red if they got the gene, so she will have litters with deep red puppies born and regular black/red like we all get in our litters. I don't want to get into a titling argument, but her females are not titled, but she always breeds to titled males.* She sells all her dogs on limited registration all going to pet homes*. And by the way the 8 year old female Lucy found an amazing home and travels cross country with her new parents in their very plush RV and actually came by for a visit just last week and is doing superbly. Just wanted to come on here and clear up the color issue regarding her red dogs.  Thanks for listening


Why do they only go to 'pet' homes? GSD's are working dogs, color shouldn't be a reason for breeding them, nor should a big blocky head,which seems to be the next 'flavor".


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## Lucy Dog

Shouldn't you be defending the dogs temperament and health, not the fact that they're really as red as the pictures show? If I were to bring up a thread that's almost 6 months old, I'd be here backing up other things besides the dog's pigment. 

Just my opinion, but I think most people _here_ can care less how red or tan these dogs are. That's kind of the point of this whole thread if you go back and read through it all...


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## WestCoastGSD

You know what Paul, I only brought the color up because it was being insinuated that she was deceiving people by coloring her photos of her dogs. She has been breeding for about 18 years and has many happy as well as repeat customers. She has many dogs that have become therapy as well as guide dogs and also has donated pick puppies to a local guide dog organization for the blind, one from a litter last year is currently in training. So I guess you could say I've now defended their temperament. Hips and elbows are also done in Germany and OFA, the females page has just yet to be completed as you can see when you compare it to the males page, pedigrees are also yet to be added to the female page like on the males.


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## robinhuerta

Hi WestCoast!
How is Zamp doing? Is he attending the USA Sieger Show in May?

...._sorry to hi-jack this old thread...just wanted to say Hi!...._


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## WestCoastGSD

Haha!! Hi Robin, Zamp is doing great, thanks for asking  No way am I traveling across country for a third time in a row LOL!! Just not really worth the money to me to end up in the same place again, especially since I can't drag a progeny group with me  Plus his daughter Malibu that was SG7 at the NASS is in Germany right now for titling, and I don't really want to drag him and a couple of puppies that far away. How are you doing?


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## LARHAGE

I just want to say welcome Westcoast! I love your Zamp, I hope you intend to stick around and contribute!


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## Emoore

WestCoastGSD said:


> This breeder is my friend





WestCoastGSD said:


> She has been breeding for about 18 years and has many happy as well as repeat customers.



Wait, are you West Coast GSD, or are you friends with them? I'm confused.


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## Catu

She/he is West Coast and she commented about Rotterbarental. This is the kennel that both WestCoast and robin are friends of.

Welcome WestCoast!!


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## carmspack

few problems here -- the breeder , the web site , curiously devoid of People , interacting with the dogs , what's up with that . The dogs are displayed like items , shoes in a shoe catalogue , all style and colour.
The web site brags . *Rotterbarental has donated German Shepherd puppies & dogs to the Guide Dogs of the Desert for the blind and a Service Dog for a victim of a violent crime.*

Having never heard of this organization I check in to it Guide Dogs of the Desert
The organization "uses a few" gsd .
It would have been more meaningful is the kennel had said that the dogs were successful , certified , guide dogs, not just the fact that they donated them. That was a trick used by someone local to my area . The dogs were awful , couldn't sell them in a dead-time , so donated them to local guide. Used that for promotion . The truth was the pups were donated. The truth is they were promptly returned but that is never mentioned.
The breeder doesn't work with the dogs , how would they know what is working appropriate. 
The buyer , OP. In your minds eye how do you imagine living with a GSD is like . If there is anxiety over perfection in colour does that bleed over into behaviour to what the dog must or must not do.
What attracted you to the GSD?
If colour is that critical why not a Rottweiller?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ

It looks like the OP got a puppy in October, had some kind of breathing issue that was going to be a trip to the vet and never came back here.

I hope the puppy is ok.....there are so many things that can be imperfect though about a dog........


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## robinhuerta

I do not know the breeder the OP was refering to....(Rotterbarental)...sorry.
I do know West Coast....(very nice person BTW)...and I like her stud dog Zamp....very nice dog.


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## DunRingill

Some of the pictures on the Rotterbarental web page do have rather a photoshop look to them. I have no idea if the color was "fixed" but the lighting and focus/sharpness of the dog doesn't always go with the background, and that makes the dog look edited. Might be something as simple as editing to clean up the background and the dog was never touched, but we really have no way to know.

I've played with photo editing software JUST enough to not automatically trust posted photos anymore!

That said, even tho I don't do "show dogs" anymore, I rather like the look of some of the dogs on the pages.


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## Freestep

Interesting. I have come to the conclusion that some dogs are TOO red. I like rich pigment, but when it's the color of a Rottweiler or an Irish Setter, it just doesn't look right to me... I can't put my finger on it. Just personal preference, I guess. I'm not a big fan of deep red Golden Retrievers, either.


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## holland

I like the deep red golden retrievers -didn't look at the website but guess I also like red pigment in a GSD too


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## cliffson1

I think some of the pitbulls have real nice red pigment!


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## Lucy Dog

Hey, WestCoast... if you ever come back to check in..

I was looking at Rotterbarental's website (the breeder you're defending) and they've got your Zamp listed as one of their dogs. Are you guys partners?


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## WestCoastGSD

Lucy Dog, 

Yes, we co-own Zamp as he was a fairly expensive dog, too rich for my blood alone at the time. He lives at my house full time.

To everyone else:

As for the photos on the site, again the color has never been touched, what good would it do her to make them redder when clients come in person to meet the dogs LOL! And if she only bred for color then please explain the black and very tan female Queen. Yes backgrounds have been fixed on some of course, you are all welcome to go to her house to meet her dogs at anytime, yes they are very red, except for her black and tan female of course, and yes they are extremely well cared for, they do not spend their days in a kennel, they have free roam of her property in a couple of nice grassy yards on her acre, more than I can say for most kennel breeders out there. She is home all day and cares for her dogs herself, she has a working husband and she does the dogs. As for them being displayed like shoes, that is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've read on here to date, as I said previously her website is in the middle of a revamping and the past puppies page and other family photos are not on there at this time, better get them back up I guess according to you so it doesn't look like a shoe store, gimme a break people. I understand there is a lot of crap out there and you feel the need to judge, but how about you save the judgement for things you have actual facts about instead of assuming, (which we know how that makes us all look) and putting statements and assumptions out there when you truly know nothing about the person. Ever heard the saying don't judge a book by it's cover? Look it up.

Regarding the donated service dogs, like I said before the picks of the litter were donated. Dogs were not returned, they are working. Because an organization does not list every dog they've ever trained on their site does not mean they weren't trained and aren't working. That organization actually had stopped using GSDs for a number of years and only recently started using them again, the puppy she donated recently was from a litter last year.

Not everyone in the dog world is out to deceive you. I would never align myself with someone that was deceptive, lying to clients will only bring heartache on them and trouble on you. 

I'll leave you now with a few photos to hopefully satisfy your curiosities and accusations. This is getting a bit old though so can we please move on to bigger and better things. 

Thanks for listening once again, and just so you know I will defend my friends til the end when I know that they are honest and good people. You will never see me defend someone that I do not know is honest or good.


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## Lobobear44

Aralez said:


> Alright, so i have decided to not buy from the previous website that i brought to some of your attention since most of you said a lot of red flags went up. Also i have decided to bring the price up a bit to a max of 1500.
> 
> If you guys could take a look at this website and let me know your opinions once again it will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Breeder German Shepherd Puppy for Sale
> 
> They specialize in deep red WGSL GSDs but i am not interested in the deep red but rather a nice balanced pigmentation of tan/red with a solid black saddle. Fortunately they have 1 puppy left from their most recent litter who was last to be picked and is still available. I assume its because he isn't deep red since most people who go to their website are looking for the deep red ( i assume ). He is now 3 months old.


I actually know a German shepherd from there. Man he is an amazing dog. If he lived around my area I would walk him.


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## NancyJ

The original thread is from late 2011/early 2012
2014 is a good time to put it to bed.


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