# The "German Malinois"



## Rerun

I put it in quotes, because of course it's not a real breed. I was doing some searching last night and found that many BYB's will cross the Malinois and the GSD and call the resulting offspring German Malinois.

The name aside, it sounds like a good cross if the right aspects were kept in mind. It sounds like this is done overseas to produce sport and working dogs. Essentially a stockier more powerful Malinois; when the results turn out as desired. Of course puppies are a crapshoot and you could end up with the worst traits of both.

Are there any legit breeders in the states crossing the two, or are they primarily just BYB's? Obviously there are going to be many on both sides opposed to it because essentially you're creating a mutt, but if the lines of both sire and dam are known and the two are carefully matched, it seems to me it's not much more of a crapshoot than crossing two of the same breed. IMHO all breeds were created from the mixing and selective breeding of various breeds, so if the right goals and reasons are behind it, I'm not opposed to selectively crossing two breeds to create a different breed (not necessarily a SUPERIOR breed, just different). One could argue the point of why cross them? Just get a GSD or a Mal. But then again, out of the hundreds of dog breeds the same could be argued in many cases there as well. Why get X breed or create Y breed when you could just get Z breed.


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## BowWowMeow

I guess Rafi is one of these...although Rafi met a mal trainer a couple of weeks ago and the trainer said he's all mal. Every mal owner who has met him has said the same thing. 

From what I've read mal breeders who are breeding for the best all around working/sports dog liberally mix in gsd and don't consider this a mix (because it's been consistently done) so it seems like a semantical question and also very difficult to understand the definition of a "purebred" mal! :crazy:


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## Samba

I think this dog is a malshep....

Dailymotion - Bart bellon - un vídeo de Sports & Extreme


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## Emoore

Better than a Mal-a-doodle.


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## Jax's Mom

How come when one is not in keeping with what the AKC/CKC has decided is right, we label them BYBs? 
If someone knows what they're doing, who's to say they're not a reputable breeder? (Doubt there is an exorbitant amount of these out there, but just sayin')
We've been breeding dogs for 400,000 years (depending on who you ask), so how come we're suddenly done now, all breeds are closed, thanks for coming out! 
Uses for dogs are evolving every day, why should we stop looking at new breeds? I'd love to see a non-shedding GSD in my lifetime! ...Not a shepradoodle, curly shepherd or shepoopy but an actual GSD that just doesn't shed! LOL ...and if it's not too much to ask, one with perfect hips/elbows/eyes and lives upwards of 20 years. Have at 'er BYBs!


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## BlackPuppy

A LOT of the KNPV dogs in The Netherlands are Mal/GSD crosses. Seems for a while that a lot were being imported for LEO work, but I think that's not so true anymore. 

And then those dogs do get bred in the states, but usually by BYBs, like you said. The Dutch Shepherd Rescue had 7 puppies that were the product of a Malinois/GSD LEO dog, bred to a Malinois bitch that wasn't anything special. I went to look, thinking of adopting one of them. They were 4 months old and already huge! I'd probably have one of them if the first puppy hadn't run up to bite Balto. 

Oh, yeah, he was just doing it thinking he was going to make a lot of money selling to police departments and didn't sell a single pup. Thankfully, the NADSR agreed to take them and they all found great pet homes.

Are you seriously looking for one?


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## Rerun

Jax's Mom said:


> How come when one is not in keeping with what the AKC/CKC has decided is right, we label them BYBs?


I have personally never done that....have actually said in prior posts that I think the term BYB is thrown around quite a bit here. However, the mal/gsd crosses I have seen were true BYB's breeding pets to pets for the sole purpose of making some money or letting fifi have a litter. They weren't working dogs with any titles or health clearances. Thus, the term BYB was used.


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## Rerun

BlackPuppy said:


> Are you seriously looking for one?


uh...no. Where did you get that impression?


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## BlackPuppy

Rerun said:


> uh...no. Where did you get that impression?


Hey, just wondering. A lot of people would like a dog like that. The people at the working dog forum probably have some Malinois puppies that are big and muscular. 

What I don't get is the Malinois crossed with Pit Bulls, aka, Donovan Pinschers. Donovan's Pinscher puppies for sale - PuppyPureBred.com


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## Rerun

I think it would be a great cross personally, but I suspect it would be difficult to get one that would be suitable for us given that there don't seem to be too many quality breeders here crossing the two, and the ones that did would likely be crossing them to produce high drive sport or LE dogs, whereas we prefer a low to medium drive dog. I suppose we could always get on a waitlist for a lower drive pup should one be born, but our next dog is likely going to be a sable male working line GSD so another other than that would be a long ways off.


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## Jax's Mom

Rerun said:


> I have personally never done that....have actually said in prior posts that I think the term BYB is thrown around quite a bit here.


Sorry, I didn't mean you were, I too just think the term is overused. That and "puppy mills". I like to reserve that word for when dogs are diseased, sitting in their own filth, rotting alive and mass producing puppies... Not just a breeder breeding a lot of dogs who in my unqualified opinion shouldn't be bred. 
Anyhow, I'm deviating from the original post... Sorry


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## Rerun

Not a problem at all, we are on the same page regarding the terms BYB and puppy mill. I think they are overused a lot causing people to really label breeders who don't deserve the label.


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## BowWowMeow

As an aside: Rafi is a throwaway dog and is just phenomenal. Very high drive but he's got an off switch. Take him outside and he's go, go, go but bring him in the house and tell him to settle on his bed and he does. Super biddable, always willing to learn, always willing to work or play, excellent with all people and animals but totally focused on me. He's to the point now where a squirrel, bunny or deer can run right in front of him and he will stay with me (if told to). If he does give chase he turns himself around and comes back to me immediately (with or without a recall) and puts himself in a sit-stay in front of me. He's a real thinking dog and I have honestly met few dogs with this good of a temperament.


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## KZoppa

i came across an ad on craigslist the other day selling Black malinois. they claimed they were rare but the picture in the ad showing the parents was a PB GSD and a PB mal. The pups looked like bi color mals with GSD pup size. it was very strange. They had that goofy GSD pup body and a skinny lil head. the ad was flagged so i cant post it here.


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## Wildtim

There is no reasonable reason to cross them. There is nothing you would gain by doing so except to be able to avoid having to meet any sort of standard for the qualities your dogs should bring. This means that anyone who does cross them is doing so purely for their own gratification or for the money, in other words they are a BYB.


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## Samba

Someone toss me Bart's byb dog! I don't have any standards.


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## holland

I saw a GSD/mal cross years ago at a Flinks seminar-my guess as to why someone would do it is for working ability-it looked like a good working dog-don't recall who the breeder was but somehow don't think they were BYB and don't think they were doing it for money-but not sure how anyone knows that or why it matters


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## GSDElsa

Well, the problem I see with crossing 2 breeds is that their is NO breed standard to follow in regards to temperment and structure. Granted, even with dogs being bred to a "standard" things can get screwy, but at least there is a certain amount of control.

Another issue I see is knowing what lines to cross in both breeds. It doesn't seem like there is really a way to "know" what is going to work out because they are not the same breed and it's essentially a big experiment.

And I guess I'd definitely want to know what they are trying to accomplish with the cross. They are 2 separate breeds for a reason. A Mal is generally referred to as a GSD on crack. So what would be the point of combining them? To just get a GSD on amphetamines?

Not to say that it can't or shouldn't be done to the absolute. But just because 2 dogs are good working dogs with slightly different temperments doesn't mean they should be combined.


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## tierra nuestra

This kinda goes with the documentary i watched about pedigree dogs and the kennel club. Akc/ckc/ukc are just letters.to do justice to the breed and what it was developed for,to make a dog to be the best that it can be,health and temperment,to have the breeds true best interests at heart and not for profit or fashion,why not a byb if this is their goals?why not an akc/ckc member too if this is also their standard?


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## BlackPuppy

KZoppa said:


> i came across an ad on craigslist the other day selling Black malinois. they claimed they were rare but the picture in the ad showing the parents was a PB GSD and a PB mal.


I asked a Groenendael breeder friend of mine if she ever gets short-hairs, or heard of that. (wink, wink) Of course, she said that never happens, and no responsible breeder is going to breed a Malinois with a Groenendale.  I think it would be great to have black Malinois. 

There is a breeder of true black Malinois in South Africa, but the dogs are extremely aggressive and crazy, from what I've heard.


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## Jessiewessie99

Kind of off topic/on topic, but I think someone down the street from my school has a Ma/Dutchie cross.

Well, I think most people who are breeding Mals and GSD together are probably BYBs.


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## Klamari

GSDElsa said:


> And I guess I'd definitely want to know what they are trying to accomplish with the cross. They are 2 separate breeds for a reason. A Mal is generally referred to as a GSD on crack. So what would be the point of combining them? To just get a GSD on amphetamines?
> Not to say that it can't or shouldn't be done to the absolute. But just because 2 dogs are good working dogs with slightly different temperments doesn't mean they should be combined.


I agree wtih GSDElsa. There are GSDs with with higher drives that act like Mals, and there are Mals with more medium drives that will act like GSDs. There are too many options in both breeds for me to see much gain in crossing them (except to get a certain look--a black Mal--which is really not a great reason to breed). 

Because I am not really familiar with dutch shepherds yet, I have a questions for those who are.

Does a Mal x Dutch Shepherd cross, which I have seen often on the working dog forum, make more sense than a GSD x Mal cross? I may be ignorant here, but I thought Mals and Dutchies were more closely related. So a cross between the two wouldnt as much a divergence as a Mal x GSD.


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## Jessiewessie99

Klamari said:


> I agree wtih GSDElsa. There are GSDs with with higher drives that act like Mals, and there are Mals with more medium drives that will act like GSDs. There are too many options in both breeds for me to see much gain in crossing them (except to get a certain look--a black Mal--which is really not a great reason to breed).
> 
> Because I am not really familiar with dutch shepherds yet, I have a questions for those who are.
> 
> Does a Mal x Dutch Shepherd cross, which I have seen often on the working dog forum, make more sense than a GSD x Mal cross? I may be ignorant here, but I thought Mals and Dutchies were more closely related. So a cross between the two wouldnt as much a divergence as a Mal x GSD.


 
It looked like a Mal/Dutchie cross. It had the coat color of a Mal and the stripes on a Dutchies brindle coat. It was werid.Maybe it was a PB Dutchie or a PB Mal.


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## Fast

Samba said:


> I think this dog is a malshep....
> 
> Dailymotion - Bart bellon - un vídeo de Sports & Extreme


No it's not. It's a pure Malinois from NVBK lines. Some lines throw bi-colors. There are also blue and liver color Malinois.


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## sagelfn

The local PD recently purchased a GSD/Mal cross

Here is the thread with an article and pictures http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/139544-3-new-k9-dogs-gsd-malinois-mix.html


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## Lesley1905

^^^I read that article you posted...beautiful dog!


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## Samba

Well, that is a pretty malinois with Bart. He did have a GSD/Mal mix that he did quite well with. He says the Belgians have long mixed dogs with the Malinois. I guess they are back yard breeders or just trying to improve those Mals!


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## Dr89

Wildtim said:


> There is no reasonable reason to cross them. There is nothing you would gain by doing so except to be able to avoid having to meet any sort of standard for the qualities your dogs should bring. This means that anyone who does cross them is doing so purely for their own gratification or for the money, in other words they are a BYB.


We all know how plagued the GSD breed is with different diseases, etc, where as isn't the malinois a generally healthier breed? You would have that to gain--more genes in the pool. It'd almost be like picking up where ol' Max himself left off. You would have a "fresh" so-to-speak gene pool by using only the best of both breeds. With where science is with DNA screening and the knowledge we have of how genes and diseases work...if done right you could end up with a VERY hearty breed. It could be just as capable as both the gsd and malinois, with the good working tempermant of the gsd to boot--so i guess the goal being not a better PERFORMING breed, but just a much, much healthier new breed?


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## selzer

I know one breeder who is crossing a dutch shepherd with GSDs. She is definitely the worst type of BYB. She tried to buy a couple of females from me. Was ticked off when I would not sell to her. I found out a few months later what the conditions were like at her place. Glad I went with my gut on that one.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> I know one breeder who is crossing a dutch shepherd with GSDs. She is definitely the worst type of BYB. She tried to buy a couple of females from me. Was ticked off when I would not sell to her. I found out a few months later what the conditions were like at her place. Glad I went with my gut on that one.


Woah! Seriously?? Your girls are American lines, right Sue? It seems like the extremes of Dutch Shepherds paired with American line GSD's would be playing with fire. Eeek! Although I could be off on that, but it seems like even mixing showline GSD's with Working line GSD's can cause a lot of issues sometimes...


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## Samba

What issues might arise?


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## BlackPuppy

sagelfn said:


> The local PD recently purchased a GSD/Mal cross
> 
> Here is the thread with an article and pictures http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/139544-3-new-k9-dogs-gsd-malinois-mix.html


 
Those are all beautiful dogs! They remind me of why I bought my Doerak. It's the look in their eyes.


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## GSDElsa

Samba said:


> What issues might arise?


Haha, don't put me on the spot!

But if I recall a thread recently on another board in which a conversation was going on with the thought of crossing american lines to working lines to bring in "new blood." I believe the general thought was that bringing in DDR might be doable because they tend to be "less extreme." 

But that bringing in Czech or WGWL's would be a disaster. Because...well, OK....the following is quoting everyone'e loved Cliff directly from another forum (I was going to try and paraphrase what he said, but I had to go find the thread...there is no way I could explain it so well!). I hope this is allowed and that Cliff doesn't mind...if so, I'm sure it can be edited.

_"The drives and nerve base would become factors. People don't realize that many of the behavoirs that are problemattic with the breed today are the result of the lack of nerve strength. Extreme sharpness, incessant barking, non stop moving, destructive chewing, chasing tails, shyness, noise sensitivity, etc. Now lack of nerve isn't the reason 100% of time but a high high % it is because dogs with sound solid stable nerves can CAP these drives and behavoirs once you teach them they are unacceptable. If its genetic based then your teaching won't overcome the behavoir in most cases. _

_So taking a Czech dog with strong drives in protection,hunt, prey, __or defense, and then overlaying it into a dog with generations of weak nerves is a recipe for the negative aspects of these drives, when not controlled or capped, to abound in the dog. With the DDR dogs you don't have over the top prey drive and a slower maturing of the dog so these issues are less pronounced; as the very active drives often lead to behavoirs that cause dogs to be difficult to handle by everyday people...._

_....The weakness in nerve is a genetic based phenomena based on Tooooo much inbreeding over Toooo long a period of time. This means the negative recessives are entrenched and will not be masked by breeding to an outside line._ _"_

Anyhow, so if this is Cliff's (and even Doc agree with him...so there!  ) thought on what a disaster AL's with Czech dogs could be...I can only imagine where Dutch Shepherds or Mal's falls into the mix.


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## Samba

I have seen people do a cross between american showline and WGWL dogs. The puppies that resulted in that particular cross were of decent nerves. No one was testing them to a high degree but certainly no big issues. Hip production.. not very good at all in that particular pairing.


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## Rerun

GSDElsa said:


> Haha, don't put me on the spot!
> 
> But if I recall a thread recently on another board in which a conversation was going on with the thought of crossing american lines to working lines to bring in "new blood." I believe the general thought was that bringing in DDR might be doable because they tend to be "less extreme."
> 
> But that bringing in Czech or WGWL's would be a disaster. Because...well, OK....the following is quoting everyone'e loved Cliff directly from another forum (I was going to try and paraphrase what he said, but I had to go find the thread...there is no way I could explain it so well!). I hope this is allowed and that Cliff doesn't mind...if so, I'm sure it can be edited.
> 
> _"The drives and nerve base would become factors. People don't realize that many of the behavoirs that are problemattic with the breed today are the result of the lack of nerve strength. Extreme sharpness, incessant barking, non stop moving, destructive chewing, chasing tails, shyness, noise sensitivity, etc. Now lack of nerve isn't the reason 100% of time but a high high % it is because dogs with sound solid stable nerves can CAP these drives and behavoirs once you teach them they are unacceptable. If its genetic based then your teaching won't overcome the behavoir in most cases. _
> 
> _So taking a Czech dog with strong drives in protection,hunt, prey, __or defense, and then overlaying it into a dog with generations of weak nerves is a recipe for the negative aspects of these drives, when not controlled or capped, to abound in the dog. With the DDR dogs you don't have over the top prey drive and a slower maturing of the dog so these issues are less pronounced; as the very active drives often lead to behavoirs that cause dogs to be difficult to handle by everyday people...._
> 
> _....The weakness in nerve is a genetic based phenomena based on Tooooo much inbreeding over Toooo long a period of time. This means the negative recessives are entrenched and will not be masked by breeding to an outside line._ _"_
> 
> Anyhow, so if this is Cliff's (and even Doc agree with him...so there!  ) thought on what a disaster AL's with Czech dogs could be...I can only imagine where Dutch Shepherds or Mal's falls into the mix.


Yes but that is assuming you are crossing nervy dogs with high drive dogs. There ARE american lines that have solid nerves, and if you crossed one of them with say a medium drive dog, I really don't see why there would be any issue. There are quite a few members on this forum that have dogs from mixed lines that are excellent dogs.


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## GSDElsa

Rerun said:


> Yes but that is assuming you are crossing nervy dogs with high drive dogs. There ARE american lines that have solid nerves, and if you crossed one of them with say a medium drive dog, I really don't see why there would be any issue. There are quite a few members on this forum that have dogs from mixed lines that are excellent dogs.


Uh, right...exactly what I was saying? Say, crossing AL's with DDR's isn't going to cause the same issues as crossing Al's with "extreme" dogs??? I would say that most people would agree with in general Dutch Shepherds and Mals are known for being on the extreme end of things. 

There are definitely good AL breeders who give a ton of thought into the breedings they do and I'm sure it can work out given the right combo. It certainly doesn't sound like the breeder Sue is talking about is not one of those people.


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## Rerun

GSDElsa said:


> Uh, right...exactly what I was saying?


No...you said that crossing american lines with working lines would/could cause "issues."

Your example was taking an american line with weak nerves and crossing it with DDR with high prey and protection drive.

I don't agree that crossing american and DDR lines is going to cause issues. What causes issues is crossing the weak nerves into the mix. Not all american lines have weak nerves. It has nothing to do with the line, your example was strictly on nerves.


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## Rerun

GSDElsa said:


> I would say that most people would agree with in general Dutch Shepherds and Mals are known for being on the extreme end of things.


 I guess that depends on what your definition of "extreme" is. If you believe all mals and dutchies are weak nerved basket cases who can't settle and live by the motto "A mal is a GSD on crack" then you probably aren't ever going to think it would be a good cross.


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## Klamari

Dr89 said:


> We all know how plagued the GSD breed is with different diseases, etc, where as isn't the malinois a generally healthier breed? You would have that to gain--more genes in the pool. It'd almost be like picking up where ol' Max himself left off. You would have a "fresh" so-to-speak gene pool by using only the best of both breeds. With where science is with DNA screening and the knowledge we have of how genes and diseases work...if done right you could end up with a VERY hearty breed. It could be just as capable as both the gsd and malinois, with the good working tempermant of the gsd to boot--so i guess the goal being not a better PERFORMING breed, but just a much, much healthier new breed?


I agree that there are more GSDs out there with health problems than there are Mals with health problems. But is probably due to how popular the GSD is. The average Mal is way too much dog for the average pet owner. The average GSD is probably a little more mellow, more of an all-around type dog than the Mal. So because of popularity, the BYBs have caused problems in the GSD breed. Also there is no "showline" Mal. So almost every Mal breeder is breeding soley for working ability and temperament. You probably already knew that but my point is......

If you compare a ratio of healthy to unhealthy GSDs that come out of reputable, responsible working line breeders and then compare that to the ratio of healthy to unhealthy Mals that come out of reputable breeders....the differences might not be so huge. Mals have the same problems that the GSDs have but because that breed isn't as popular, the BYBs havent created such a large number of dogs with HD and nerve issues, etc. 

So.....to me, the working line GSD is just about as healthy as a Mal. I don't have exact number on that but, that has just been my experience. So crossing with a Mal would be pointless if you were looking to make the breed healthier. I think most people who cross them are looking to add things in terms of working ability and drives.


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## Samba

I thought there were showline malinois. The people I know with them are quick to tell me that there dog is showlines not working line mal. I don't know anything about the lines, but, for sure, the show Mals I know do not remind me of the working line Malinois that I have seen.


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## Klamari

Samba said:


> I thought there were showline malinois. The people I know with them are quick to tell me that there dog is showlines not working line mal. I don't know anything about the lines, but, for sure, the show Mals I know do not remind me of the working line Malinois that I have seen.


Yeah technically there are some. But breeding Mals for conformation started, what, 20 years ago? For me, there are so few of them, they havent vastly altered the breed, as a whole, from what the "original" was in terms of health. I agree their temperaments might be different, but I don't think they have the line in the sand, yet, like GSDs do when it comes to actual structure, and therefore HD and things like that. 

I think it would take another couple decades for the "showline" Mal, done the wrong way, to start affecting the breeds overall health the way it has in the GSD. So right now, the Mals as a breed really don't have that influence the way the GSD does.

Just my opinion


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## BlackPuppy

Klamari said:


> Also there is no "showline" Mal. So almost every Mal breeder is breeding soley for working ability and temperament. You probably already knew that but my point is......


What are you talking about? There are show line Malinois all over the world, and for much longer than 20 years. Yes, the USA, also. I met a tracking judge who was breeding Malinois over 30 years ago.

Malinois at Westminster 2010 
Belgian Malinois > Videos > Westminster Kennel Club

Crufts Winners 2010 Belgian Malinois
DFS Crufts 2010 Results |

AKC Eukanuba Invitational
American Kennel Club - 2010 AKC/Eukanuba National Championship

Unfortunately, your state, Texas, and Florida have the most Malinois BYBs in the country. Maybe that's why you think there aren't any conformation Malinois.


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## BlackPuppy

Here's a GSD/Malinois mix in a Texas shelter today that the Malinois rescue is trying to pull. The dog was found as a stray, is 3 years old and up to date on shots. His owners know he's there and don't want to retrieve him, so the ABMC rescue is.


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## GSDElsa

Rerun said:


> No...you said that crossing american lines with working lines would/could cause "issues."
> 
> Your example was taking an american line with weak nerves and crossing it with DDR with high prey and protection drive.
> 
> I don't agree that crossing american and DDR lines is going to cause issues. What causes issues is crossing the weak nerves into the mix. Not all american lines have weak nerves. It has nothing to do with the line, your example was strictly on nerves.


 
Um, no....this is what I said about DDR dogs.

*I believe the general thought was that bringing in DDR might be doable because they tend to be "less extreme." *
* and this from Cliff again:*
_With the DDR dogs you don't have over the top prey drive and a slower maturing of the dog so these issues are less pronounced; as the very active drives often lead to behavoirs that cause dogs to be difficult to handle by everyday people...._


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## GSDElsa

Rerun said:


> I guess that depends on what your definition of "extreme" is. If you believe all mals and dutchies are weak nerved basket cases who can't settle and live by the motto "A mal is a GSD on crack" then you probably aren't ever going to think it would be a good cross.


Wow, you're sure on a roll putting unsaid words into my mouth. I said that mals are considered "GSD's on crack" pretty tongue in cheek. I believe that's a pretty common "joke" about the difference between mals and GSD's. 

And where on earth did I ever said anything about mals and dutchies being weak nerved basket cases who can't settle? I believe the quote by Cliff pretty much summed it up nicely as can have EXTREME prey, hunt, fight drive. What the heck does that have anything to do with being "weak nerved basket cases??"


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## Jax08

GSDElsa said:


> *quote by Cliff *


those being the key words.


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## GSDElsa

Jax08 said:


> those being the key words.


Yes exactly! And Cliff certainly wasn't saying those things with some intent on bashing AL's. He's fond of many AL breeders. However, the thought is that there is a basis to the liens that has developed from heavy selective breeding that has made a very specific type of dog. So you take the bloodlines of almost any "typical" American dog--even if it's a good breeder--who has been developed a certain way--and add in something that is the "extreme" in the other direction, and you are asking for a potential clash of traits.

This argument really isn't any different as to why certain working line dogs shouldn't be heavily linebred on. Some dogs don't create the best mix.

I personally gave the issue little thought until the thread that was going on about it, but there was a lot of very good insight given by a lot of very experienced people that made a lot of sense.


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## selzer

No, these bitches were about 75% German Showlines, and the rest American Showlines. I have bred these to German showline dogs since, and I am mostly breeding for German showlines.

Evenso, I am not sure that she would have bred my bitches to the Dutchie. She hadn't mentioned that when she was trying to buy them. I did not like the run of her conversation:

Uhm, what do you think about mud?
Mud?
Yes, do you think puppies should be in mud?
Uh..
Well, I do not think so, I have 13 dogs and they can all run together.
Uhm, well, I do not know that my girls would do that good running around with 13 other dogs. 
I have 13 dogs and 13 pens... 

And so forth.

Six months later a lady at the grocery store talked to me and told me she "rescued" a very ill puppy from the woman, and the lady gave her a very ill older bitch as well. She told me she had about 15 pens, full of mud, and about four dogs in each of them. 

Six months later she called me about a male pup. That is when she told me that she was mixing GSDs with a Dutch Shepherd, because police departments want them. 

I sure hope that no police orgainzations are buying from her. I am waiting for a news story to break on her. I had encouraged the lady in the grocery store to blow the whistle on her, but she just said if she wants another, she will "rescue" it from her. I told her if she is paying this woman money, than she was keeping her in business. That ended the conversation. I cannot call on heresay.


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## Rerun

GSDElsa said:


> Wow, you're sure on a roll putting unsaid words into my mouth. I said that mals are considered "GSD's on crack" pretty tongue in cheek. I believe that's a pretty common "joke" about the difference between mals and GSD's.
> 
> And where on earth did I ever said anything about mals and dutchies being weak nerved basket cases who can't settle? I believe the quote by Cliff pretty much summed it up nicely as can have EXTREME prey, hunt, fight drive. What the heck does that have anything to do with being "weak nerved basket cases??"


You seem to be wanting to argue. I'm not trying to argue. You stated/quoted earlier in reference to crossing American showlines and DDR that you might end up with the DDR drive and the weak nerve of the showline. You quoted it because you seemed to agree with it. My opinion is that that's an inaccurate line of thinking, because in doing so one is ASSUMING that the breeder is crossing into the mix a weak nerved showline. Not all showlines are weak nerved, and if the breeder is breeding any weaknerved dog then that's obviously irresponsible breeding in the first place. As someone else asked earlier, what "issues" would arise from crossing the two? All you talked about was the weak nerve from the american showline, but if you selected a dog with solid nerves what other issues are there? This is rather off topic anyway, as the thread was about the mal and gsd, not showlines and working lines (GSD).


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## GSDElsa

Rerun said:


> You seem to be wanting to argue. I'm not trying to argue. You stated/quoted earlier in reference to crossing American showlines and DDR that you might end up with the DDR drive and the weak nerve of the showline. You quoted it because you seemed to agree with it. My opinion is that that's an inaccurate line of thinking, because in doing so one is ASSUMING that the breeder is crossing into the mix a weak nerved showline. Not all showlines are weak nerved, and if the breeder is breeding any weaknerved dog then that's obviously irresponsible breeding in the first place. As someone else asked earlier, what "issues" would arise from crossing the two? All you talked about was the weak nerve from the american showline, but if you selected a dog with solid nerves what other issues are there? This is rather off topic anyway, as the thread was about the mal and gsd, not showlines and working lines (GSD).


OH MY GAWD. No, I have repeatedly said that if a cross was to happen between American showlines and a working line, the cross that would be "doable" would to cross with a DDR dog because they tend to be less extreme in their drives than, say, a Czech dog.

And no, it's really not very off topic even if the example has shifted to GSD combos. People seem to be of the opinion that crossing two types of dogs is always going to create the perfect middle, when that is in fact not always the case. Crossing 2 extremes often results in nothing more than bringing out the worst from both sides. 

Of course there are very reputable AL breeders...Andanka is one I have a ton of respect for (I'd say Selzer, but I didn't realize her dogs were actually mostly WGSL's). But she even admits that there have been some bad things that have happened in the line in the past that good breeders are having to fight through. Breeding 2 polar opposites to each other isn't really the best way to fix the issue. It could likely bring out the bad traits that the line has been trying to fix. And I feel this goes for all lines. None is perfect.

COULD it work? I'm sure it could. But I'm sure it would take an ridiculously knowledgable breeder about ALL bloodlines and pedigrees. There is a reason why there isn't an influx of AL's x Czech dogs...just like when you do see GSD x Mal crosses (at least none I've ever seen), it's not with AL's and Mals.

And what was being said by Cliff is totally pertinent to this discussion, as the conversation revolved around why it wouldn't work to add "new" blood such as Czech dogs into the AL's to fix the excessive line/inbreeding that was happening with AL's for awhile. Just like this conversation as to why deciding that a GSD x Mal was the best thing since sliced bread.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> Evenso, I am not sure that she would have bred my bitches to the Dutchie. She hadn't mentioned that when she was trying to buy them.


Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I thought you meant when she wanted to buy them that her intention was to use them as her brood bitches.


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## selzer

Oh yes, her intentions were to raise them to be brood bitches, she just did not mention the Dutch shepherd until the next year when she was looking for a male. 

I talked to this woman for a good hour or more each year. I know I could have just shut her off by asking to do a home visit or something like, but I like talking to people and giving them the opportunity to hang themselves. This is why, sometimes this is a full time job. How else would I hear someone tell me that "trained" the pup to stay out of the garbage by ductaping rotting meat to the muzzle for three days. Sometimes, listening to people is like watching a serial killer, slasher or horror flick: fascinating, disgusting, gross, infuriating.

This lady was so slimey though, she would have agreed to the home visit and directed me to a neighbor or family member's home -- well, not after she told me she had x number of dogs.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> This is why, sometimes this is a full time job. How else would I hear someone tell me that "trained" the pup to stay out of the garbage by ductaping rotting meat to the muzzle for three days.


Uh...did someone wanting to buy on eof your puppies actually say this?!


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## selzer

Yes, and no, they did not get my address. Telephone screening is an important part of this, and why I do not like the idea of using an internet site or application to screen people. I would be afraid that the application would lead people to say what I want them to say. 

Instead I just let them wear out my ear drums. If I can talk to someone for an hour and still want them to raise a puppy of mine, it seems to work out ok. I just give a little nudge to get them off and running. You would be surprised some of the stuff I hear. Like how Dog 1 was hit by a car and killed, dog 2 was hit by a car and killed, Dog 3 was hit by a car and killed. Uhm, so how are you going to keep this dog from being killed in the road? Oh, we will train him to the boundary lines. Those other dogs were retarded. RETARDED! #$%^ Who is RETARDED???? But of course, I just smile to myself and give a little affirmative noise, and encourage them away from my dogs. They do not get my address.


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## GMalimom

*GSD/Belgian Malinois pup*

I am looking for a GSD/B Mali pup in the NC, SC, VA, TN or GA area. I currently have a 2 1/2 yr old neutered male and would love to find another pup. Does anyone know of any pups available in these states? This pup would be fixed and never used for breeding and would be a family pet. Thank you!
GMalimom


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## AgileGSD

Rerun said:


> I think it would be a great cross personally, but I suspect it would be difficult to get one that would be suitable for us given that there don't seem to be too many quality breeders here crossing the two, and the ones that did would likely be crossing them to produce high drive sport or LE dogs, whereas we prefer a low to medium drive dog. I suppose we could always get on a waitlist for a lower drive pup should one be born, but our next dog is likely going to be a sable male working line GSD so another other than that would be a long ways off.


 Someone here has been involved with a litter of them bred for LE. These puppies were "fostered out" (for socialization purposes), evaluated for LE and the ones who they didn't feel were ideal for LE were placed as pets/performance dogs. I didn't at all get the impression they were extreme high drive. I may be able to get contact info on where these guys came from. With the two I met, one looked very much like a Mal and the other more like a GSD. 




Wildtim said:


> There is no reasonable reason to cross them. There is nothing you would gain by doing so except to be able to avoid having to meet any sort of standard for the qualities your dogs should bring. This means that anyone who does cross them is doing so purely for their own gratification or for the money, in other words they are a BYB.


 Everyone has their opinions but it would seem a lot of people would disagree with this, since the cross is a pretty common one for sport/work. 




BlackPuppy said:


> I asked a Groenendael breeder friend of mine if she ever gets short-hairs, or heard of that. (wink, wink) Of course, she said that never happens, and no responsible breeder is going to breed a Malinois with a Groenendale.  I think it would be great to have black Malinois.


 There was a breeder who has Mals and Groens who had an oops litter between the varieties once. The color genetics of the Belgians are not quite as straight forward as was once though: Powered by Google Docs


Also FWIW Groenx Mal litters are occasionally done in other countries.


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## Ricky Mav

GMalimom said:


> I am looking for a GSD/B Mali pup in the NC, SC, VA, TN or GA area. I currently have a 2 1/2 yr old neutered male and would love to find another pup. Does anyone know of any pups available in these states? This pup would be fixed and never used for breeding and would be a family pet. Thank you!
> GMalimom


Have you checked out "ebay classifieds"?


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## Ricky Mav

I see nothing wrong with the mix, that in my opinion has been going on in one way or another since the inception of both breeds. I will definitely say that it has been more prevalent with some of the Belgian and Dutch breeders.I'm pretty sure that the Belgian breeds are older than the German Shepherd breed. 
Here's a video of 



 you can see some German Shepherd types there. If you look at the video, you can see dogs that look like Horand von Grafrath (SZ-1), Hektor v. Schwaben (SZ-13), Roland v. Starkenburg (SZ-1537), etc.

Here's a video of



 from 26 seconds on this video to about 58 seconds up to the early 1930's will demonstrate my point.


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## PaddyD

Volker was the best of all time.
JMHO


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## Mrs.K

Quite a few actually go into police and security companies, plus Raiser wanted to cross them into the German Shepherd. It's the only mix I wouldn't mind owning myself


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## Ricky Mav

PaddyD said:


> Volker was the best of all time.
> JMHO


I don't know how his temperament and working ability was, but I like the looks of Klodo. Norbert looks good too. In fact, I have had Malinois/Dutch Shepherds who looked like Klodo, Norbert, and Roland.


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> plus Raiser wanted to cross them into the German Shepherd.


No he did not. That statement was made for shock value, he wasn't serious.


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> No he did not. That statement was made for shock value, he wasn't serious.


Pretty much ANYTHING he says is for shock value and he is _never_ serious... recently, he hurt and discredited not only himself but especially the RSV2000 more than he could have ever imagined by degrading another breed using inappropriate language for the sake of shock value and then he turns around and says he wasn't serious to do damage control. That didn't go so well with a loooot of people an he's lost quite a bit of reputation because of it. So ya...


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## trudy

I think the creation of a new breed should have a purpose..how about all the doodles??? there are so many crosses now they are all great, and lets talk about King Shepherds, Shiloh Shepherds, oversize old Shepherds, etc.....WHY must we encourage breeding 2 breeds and not knowing what we are doing??? Why must we ruin the Mals??? How about GS to Goldens???How about GS to Rotty's??? Come on folks if you love your breed don't breed creating mutts, and remember Mals are only 1 variety of Belgians!!!! And thanks to people with the mentality of interbreeding breeds we are finding these same people are ruining the Mals, PEOPLE read the standards, breed to the standards, that means there are not supposed to be big heavy Mals!!!!


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## holland

I didn't read this whole thread but I have seen a GSD XMal- I really doubt that he was bred by a backyard breeder and that term gets tossed around a lot here- There are countries that focus on just getting a really good working dog and don't focus on papers etc-You might not like it but they probably don't care


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## holland

Never mind-this post is a year old and I already posted on it


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## carmspack

trudy I agree , let's never encourage ANY breeding where the breeder does not know what he is doing , whether it is two breeds , or one breed (purebred) . It ends up the same , a mess .
Read the standards . 
All the mixes that you mentioned are conversation pieces at the dog park . There is no reason.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Chris Wild

Yes, the cross is popular amongst kennels breeding specifically for work. Especially the KNPV folks. But I see a difference between breeding to produce a product and breeding to maintain a breed. And whether it's doodle breeding for pets, breeding for specialized agility and flyball dogs (which is becoming very common), or breeding for specialized working dogs those all fall into the cateogry of producing a product and have nothing to do with breed maintenance. 

Can it be a good cross in terms of producing a good product? Absolutely. But as *breeds*, neither offers enough to the other to justify considering opening up breeding books to allow for these crosses. Not when breeding to maintain either the GSD or the Belgians as breeds.


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> Yes, the cross is popular amongst kennels breeding specifically for work. Especially the KNPV folks. But I see a difference between breeding to produce a product and breeding to maintain a breed. And whether it's doodle breeding for pets, breeding for specialized agility and flyball dogs (which is becoming very common), or breeding for specialized working dogs those all fall into the cateogry of producing a product and have nothing to do with breed maintenance.
> 
> Can it be a good cross in terms of producing a good product? Absolutely. But as *breeds*, neither offers enough to the other to justify considering opening up breeding books to allow for these crosses. Not when breeding to maintain either the GSD or the Belgians as breeds.


Agreed!

Still, it's the only mutt I wouldn't mind owning myself, if I could get my hands on a nice one.


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## holland

carmspack said:


> trudy I agree , let's never encourage ANY breeding where the breeder does not know what he is doing , whether it is two breeds , or one breed (purebred) . It ends up the same , a mess .
> Read the standards .
> All the mixes that you mentioned are conversation pieces at the dog park . There is no reason.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


...Umm don't you think that KNPV people know what there are doing. I don't know I'm thinking they might...


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## carmspack

ummmm read again . yes they know what they are doing. So did "Donovan" . 
There is a difference for purpose bred -- off registry - not confined to pure - breed if there is a defined goal with knowledge of the breeds being brought together and knowledge of the particular two partners , genetic backgrounds, being brought together.

I said let's never encourage ANY breeding where the breeder does , and maybe I should have done this , NOT know what he is doing --- and that includes any breeding whether show , or work , and there are many .

good thinking ... , the KNPV people have the advantage because they are thinking outside of the box , 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lmilr

I'm not an expert or anything but I absolutely love the GSD/Malinois cross.
That's a big reason why I have one and he's exactly what I wanted and expected


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## suzzyq01

Mushers in the beginning/still crossed Siberian Huskies with Alaskan Malamutes to create a combo of the both. I don't really see much of a difference with this type of breed crossing. This is how the Alaskan Husky came to be, It is not a breed because there is no regulation of the linage but it resulted from breeding the Siberian for speed and endurance to the Malamute for strength and stamina. Together they created the perfect sled dog. 

Mushers did not compete with their dog years ago for titles like we do with German Shepherds, they choose a healthy high performing dog in sledding. 


If it wasn't for cross breeding we would not have the wide selection of breeds we have today. This trend will continue as "new" breeds are created by cross breeding. The Czechoslovakian Vlcak is a newly recognized breed by the UKC since 2006. Another example is the Alaskan Klee Kai which was recognized by UKC in 1997 that is a result of cross breedings of Siberian Huskies, Schipperke's, and American Eskimo Dogs. 


I am all for it, just by responsible breeders. Crossing breeding and new breed development should be left up to the experts. Not just someone who owns one of each breed and wants to try something new!


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## Fast

I think that some of you guys might not understand the mindset of the Malinois breeder. To most the Malinois is not seen as a breed, but is seen more as a type. They don't care about the paper work they care about the temperament and physical traits. So if the dog is a mix and looks and acts like a Malinois they call it a Malinois. And if these mixes are good enough they will be bred.


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## Catu

Lets face it, breeds are an invention of the last century. I wish dog people had the same mindset than zoo-technicians have and would strive more for traits instead of pureness. Do you worry about homogeneity? it can be done with cross breeding too if done properly, you just have to understand that there are terminal animals that are meant to do the job and do it well and it doesn't mean they are for breeding.

And if you don't believe it is possible, take a look at what is done with pigs and poultry.

.


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## Mrs.K

Fast said:


> I think that some of you guys might not understand the mindset of the Malinois breeder. To most the Malinois is not seen as a breed, but is seen more as a type. They don't care about the paper work they care about the temperament and physical traits. So if the dog is a mix and looks and acts like a Malinois they call it a Malinois. And if these mixes are good enough they will be bred.


Yep, that is why you can see quite a few Mals that have no papers, horrible ear sets, yet they are worked in competition, on the job and bred and people just don't care about that kind of stuff. As long as it is for Utility I have no issues with it. If it is for money and "designer" purposes... that is something I can't agree with.


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## Ricky Mav

Catu said:


> Lets face it, breeds are an invention of the last century. I wish dog people had the same mindset than zoo-technicians have and would strive more for traits instead of pureness. Do you worry about homogeneity? it can be done with cross breeding too if done properly, you just have to understand that there are terminal animals that are meant to do the job and do it well and it doesn't mean they are for breeding.
> 
> And if you don't believe it is possible, take a look at what is done with pigs and poultry.
> 
> .


Very good points. Here is the grandson of Horand v. Grafrath, if someone asked what breed of dog this is, would you say "GSD" or "Mal" or "DS"?


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## prophecy

I think that mix would produce some kick-azz working dogs,if the 2 were paired correctly.It's more of a ''working'' mix(functional) so I'd guess it's not a favorite of the BYB community.(at least not as much as ''poos and doodles'') So my short answer is 'no',it's not likely a BYB mix.


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## BlackPuppy

Mrs.K said:


> Yep, that is why you can see quite a few Mals that have no papers, horrible ear sets, yet they are worked in competition, on the job and bred and people just don't care about that kind of stuff. As long as it is for Utility I have no issues with it. If it is for money and "designer" purposes... that is something I can't agree with.


Same with Dutch Shepherds. That's why I got mine from "show" lines. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-what-difference-few-months-make-non-gsd.html


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## cliffson1

The Malinois predominantly is owned and bred by people with the best interest of the breed per it design......the German Shepherd is not!!!There are some who truly put function first, but most owners and breeders want a cosmetic dog!!! And that is the reason the breed is no longer considered the utility dog it one was!!


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## Rerun

It is unfortunate that some people look at a breed souly for the purpose of it's look. It is one thing to have a great dog, and want it to be pleasing to the eye. But another to want a dog just for it's appearance. In another thread recently about GSD's and mals, a member made a comment to the effect of the mal was just an ugly skinny knock off of the GSD. It's really not worth debating about with some people, but for 1) I think the breed is beautiful and of course am partial to MY mal in particular, but for 2) it's not a breed that was bred for beauty, it was bred to work. So if someone wants a beautiful showline GSD that can't work, I will take an "ugly skinny" (said tongue in cheek) malinois anyday.


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## Whiteshepherds

Rerun when you talk about your Mal is it a Belgian Malinois or is that another breed but similar?


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## Rerun

He's a belgian malinois


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## trudy

do you realise a Belgian Malinois is a separate breed from the other 4 varieties in the US ONLY!!!!! In all the other countries it is a variety only, all 4 are Belgian Shepherds, and the people who say they are breeding for purpose not looks, well they might as well breed mutts, you ruin a breed by not maintaining its look as well as its function..and crossing them is only done to ruin a good breed, you would all freak if we all wanted to breed poodles or labs with German Shepherds..well stick to maintaining and improving the breeds as they are..and lets not indiscriminately breed anything. A black long coat Belgian has the same abilities, sadly too many in the US are poor tempered but they are not all like that, any more than the weak tempered Terv's in the US...again not all but the breed can and is interbred in all other countries, thereby maintaining better stronger temperment in the other countries...most police dogs in France were long coated black Belgians, and may still be I haven't kept up on the facts


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## Debbieg

Don't know about the the difference between the US and other countries but my trainer breeds Malinois in the US and the dogs I have seen from her breeding are to me beautiful in looks, temperament and working ability.

Loups du Soleil Working Malinois


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## trudy

DebieG, there is NO difference in the breed in other countries, the reason the split in the US was for the show ring each could be shown in group, in some countries since all are 1 breed which ever variety wins that one is in group..the problem is that people wanting to breed to make mutts come up with dumb reasons like not enough of a breed for genetic diversity, there are lots of the breed, but intervariety breeding isn't allowed in the US, so in order to have it the female must be sent to Canada to whelp, or another country...also in a litter you can have the other variety...long coated pups born in a Mal litter are coated Mals, when in fact they are Tervurens...so DQ fault, or different breed...very messy business, I believe they should have remained 1 breed with varieties, adn if needed representation in group ring do like spaniels etc, with all varieties represented..

Also most people in the US think only Malinois when talking Belgians and beleive the others are fluffy 'pretty' dogs with no working ability..and in some they sadly are..but in many countries where intervariety breeding is allowed and encouraged you keep the stronger temperment in all varieties.. This is just me trying to educate and try to STOP the intentional breeding of cross breeds


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## BlackPuppy

Yes, there are lots of the Other Belgian varieties "working" in the US and other countries. Sadly, most Malinois in the US are not bred for conformation. My dog included. But it's very difficult to get a "show" Malinois from the show-line breeders. Unfortunately, my breeder was not a "responsible breeder" and while she's a nice dog, she has a lot of problems. 

Here is a brief summary of why they are 4 separate breeds in the USA. The Groenendael (Black long coat) was the first Belgian imported to the USA and they were used in the NY police department. When they started showing in the AKC with all 4 varieties, the Groenendael people said that the other dogs were so far from the "standard" that they weren't even like the same breed. So, the Groenendael was the only "Belgian Sheepdog" in the AKC. 

I have seen working Groenendaels, but no working Tervurens. Doesn't mean they don't exist someplace. Though, I do know a lot of Herding Tervurens. 

The Laekenois is the last to enter the AKC. It is also a strong working dog with a Police and War dog background. It's origin included guarding the flax fields in Belgium. It was allowed into the AKC companion events in 2008, and was finally allowed in conformation in 2011, but still only in Miscellaneous group, not even in Herding group. There is slightly over 150 dogs registered with the AKC. 

The UKC does consider all 4 to be one breed, and they are shown as varieties and then in total. 

Class over. 

Oh, intervariety breeding is no longer allowed in most registries without a very good reason. But, when you have a litter, the puppies are registered the way they look, not by what the parents. 

And it doesn't appear that Loups du Soliel does any conformation work with their dogs at all.


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## trudy

I can never understand why some working kennels don't pay more attention to conformation..A dog can only work as well as the structure allows it, and the over size that so often is bred for destroys the speed and agility the breed is known for..

Black puppy, thanks for the history about the Belgian breeds, in Canada you are still allowed to breed inter variety, and I know of several US breeders who have sent females up to be whelped, so pups are then registered according to birth, not parents..I remember years ago, about 30, that Tervs and Groens could only be imported into the US with 3 generations of the one type, yet still both had litters wth the other varieties in them, sure sent some great looking dogs into Canada, where they could at least still hit the show rings..As well I don't know which countries don't allow inter variety breedings, I knwo most Laeken have Mals as a parent or for sure grand parent, and intervarieties are always being advertised on facebook's Belgian puppies pages..Knowledgeable breeders should breed according to so much more than coat color and length, and Groen/Terv breedings have rich blacks and reds, no reddish blacks etc..


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## Debbieg

trudy said:


> I can never understand why some working kennels don't pay more attention to conformation..A dog can only work as well as the structure allows it, and the over size that so often is bred for destroys the speed and agility the breed is known for..
> 
> Bl.


Just because a kennel is not showing in Conformation does not mean they do not care about structure. Many of the loups de soleil dogs do Mondio and other sport and I believe some are with the police. Most are in working are very active homes. They must have the correct structure. 

Many who choose sport venues or who have dogs working do not have the time or desire to show in conformation. That does not mean the dogs do not have the right structure. The fact these dogs work, and do well in sport suggests they do have correct conformation as well as temperament doesn't it.


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## AbbyK9

> I asked a Groenendael breeder friend of mine if she ever gets short-hairs, or heard of that. (wink, wink) Of course, she said that never happens, and no responsible breeder is going to breed a Malinois with a Groenendale.  I think it would be great to have black Malinois.


There are black Mals out there. Actually, TriState K-9 in Ohio currently has a black Mal bitch, Donna. They were looking to breed her but I think they ended up selling her to a Police Department.


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## Catu

Debbieg said:


> Just because a kennel is not showing in Conformation does not mean they do not care about structure. Many of the loups de soleil dogs do Mondio and other sport and I believe some are with the police. Most are in working are very active homes. They must have the correct structure.


And if the 99% of the other breeds had taught us something is that the show ring doesn't care for real working structure and more about extremes.


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## idahospud49

Jax's Mom said:


> How come when one is not in keeping with what the AKC/CKC has decided is right, we label them BYBs?
> If someone knows what they're doing, who's to say they're not a reputable breeder? (Doubt there is an exorbitant amount of these out there, but just sayin')
> We've been breeding dogs for 400,000 years (depending on who you ask), so how come we're suddenly done now, all breeds are closed, thanks for coming out!
> Uses for dogs are evolving every day, why should we stop looking at new breeds? I'd love to see a non-shedding GSD in my lifetime! ...Not a shepradoodle, curly shepherd or shepoopy but an actual GSD that just doesn't shed! LOL ...and if it's not too much to ask, one with perfect hips/elbows/eyes and lives upwards of 20 years. Have at 'er BYBs!


Agreed!!!!


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## AgileGSD

Debbieg said:


> Just because a kennel is not showing in Conformation does not mean they do not care about structure. Many of the loups de soleil dogs do Mondio and other sport and I believe some are with the police. Most are in working are very active homes. They must have the correct structure.


 I know a Loups de Soleil bitch who IMO could finish in AKC. Of course, her owner has zero interest in such things 

Neither breeding for work/sport or the breed ring guarantees a dog will have "correct structure". In UKC conformation (Belgians in UKC are always judged by a breeder judge and the dogs are rated and critiqued at every show), Belgians are judged largely on their head type and outline. A dog with a course head, heavier bone but lovely movement will generally not finish in UKC. In AKC, what judges are looking for in the breed depends on the judge. Some prefer a courser dog, some a more refined dog, some look just at movement, some have to see a certain expression, some have cosmetic hang-ups that will cause them to not put a dog up such as light eyes or white on the chest, some judge based on who's handling the dog and with some, it's anyone's guess. As far as work goes, dogs with the drive and temperament for it can and do work past physical limitations. You can't judge structure based on how well the dog does bite work or how well the dog runs after stuff or jumps. Our rescue corgi doesn't have what anyone would consider to be ideal structure, yet he's a crazy fast agility dog, jumps 12" without issue. Many "proper" corgis jump 8" because their owners feel 12" is too high for them. When we were doing flyball, everyone kept saying "I don't understand how he can be so fast!". It isn't because of his structure - he's got crooked, short legs and isn't all that balanced. It's because that's who he is, he's a dog who loves to go-go-go-go all the time and he does nothing slow.

There are breeders who are using Tervs and Groens out of working Mal lines, some in the US. Denise Fenzi probably has the most established breeding program of working Tervs: Sprite Working Belgian Tervuren 

It is true that IV breeding is still pretty common in many countries.


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