# Crate training has been an epic fail



## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

My GSD pup is close to or on the 8month of his life. He has up to date on all his shots, has been checked for all infections and has been altered. He is a very active and lively GSD. He has, for the most part, been a decently behaved puppy for the exception of a couple of minor things. Most of which can be fixed with age and constant training; however, I cannot for the life of me housebreak this animal 100%. 

I'm not sure if maybe I expect too much from him and maybe he is not physically able to hold his business in for the lengths of time that I expect him to. When I am home and he is out of his partitioned space in the kitchen he is a peach. When he has to go out he becomes very obnoxious and in your face to let you know, "hey, I have to go out". This is completely cool with me because at least he is letting me know. 

When he is out he holds it for long periods of time. He really doesn't ever relieve himself when I have him out and I am around. My problem is when he is in his partition for the time I am at work or at night when we are asleep. 

I have used enzyme cleaners, white vinegar and everything under the sun in terms of getting the scent out. It doesn't matter to him in the least. He will relieve himself without a problem when I am not around. He used to be crated but that got a bit out of hand since no one ever gave him the memo that dogs dont go where they sleep. This theory worked with my other dog but it doesn't work with this dog. He so stubborn, that even in the kitchen I have him partitioned in, he will relieve himself and find a way to step in the mess and drag it all over the place. This has become and everyday thing with no sign of improvement. I sometimes get home and there is no mess and I take him right out. I love those days. Majority of the days I get home to a mess and I want to ring his neck. 

I work from 9-5 and my house is too far to come home and walk him mid-day. I have been patiently waiting for him to eventually build the muscles to hold it but I'm becoming impatient. 

My toy pug is less than a quarter of the GSDs size and he holds his stuff until we get home with no problems. The pug gets crated since he wont relieve himself in his crate but probably would if I gave him free reign of the house during the day. I never really tested this to confirm because his crate keeps him safe so I dont plan on ever finding out. The GSD doesn't respect the crate as the Pug does.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My 7 month old pup would not make it on a 9-5 work day schedule. No way he would not have to go. He still goes out in the night sometimes also. Mine will go in the crate if he is not let out in a timely manner, I think that is normal. Nothing stubborn about it in any way that I can perceive.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Do you know at what age they have the tolerance to hold it for longer periods of time? 

My other dog is 3 and it's been a while but I do remember going through some serious bumpy roads with his crate training as well.


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

Could you set up and area where he is sectioned off to put a crate in one corner with the door open and a "potty section" in another corner? This could be a small swimming pool filled with ceder chips, sod or the potty pads etc. This is what I was going to do before my son had to move back in with me. Now I have a built in dog sitter while I am at work!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh, and by stubborn I meant that even with space he finds a way to get into the messes he leaves behind. I stopped using the crate because when I got home I would have to clean the crate and the dog. He would lay in it and just make a huge mess. He would have to be bathed daily. It gets cold here, real cold. I opted to remove the crate so at least when I got home I would just have to wash his paws a bit. He walks in the stuff but I dont think he really lays in it now.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm in no way an expert on this matter, but have dealt with it with several puppies and can feel your frustration. I had a male yorkie with the same issue. I thought the crate training thing was a hoax because he would mess in his crate and then literally lay in it. The mess was horrible. And I can't tell you that I was ever able to solve this issue. But he was equally as bad outside the crate. He would lift his leg on everything, no matter how many times I took him out, and finally after 2 and half years I gave up and sold him. Ever since then, I have only owned female dogs. And they have all been so much easier. I have a 2 yr old chihuahua and a 3.5 month old GSD female that both could stay in the crate during my 9-5 work day without problems. My chihuahua, in fact, no longer even needs to be crated. She eventually understood why she was being crated and now she roams free in the home all day and will not mess. My 3.5 month old GSD has never since I brought her home at 9 weeks, messed in her crate. So I can't say for sure if its a male thing, but I know I have had a much easier time crate/house training my females. I do know that the space you've created in the kitchen is probably too much room for him and gives him the space he needs to do his business. That is one thing they tell you in crate training. And as you've seen, it doesn't bother him to step in a little poop. Is his crate too big? He should only have enough room to stand and lay down comfortably. I hope you're able to get some help with this!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: bcannieCould you set up and area where he is sectioned off to put a crate in one corner with the door open and a "potty section" in another corner? This could be a small swimming pool filled with ceder chips, sod or the potty pads etc. This is what I was going to do before my son had to move back in with me. Now I have a built in dog sitter while I am at work!


Honestly, I would love this idea. I actually tried this with my Pug when he was young but he never took to actually using it. I ended up just using pee-pads. This puppy demolishes the pee-pads. I could only imaging the mess I would have if I used cedar chips. I really wish I could because at least it would make it easier to keep this area clean. Something like that would just require a little daily maintenance (like a cat litter). This dog wont have it though. 

Any other suggestions? Maybe a way to deter him from making a mess of it? I'm seriously open to all of this.

I wish I could afford to have a dog walker or dog day care but I dont. These services rarely existed in the past anyway and people have always had dogs as pets and have been able to housebreak them. If I could at least find an easier way to have him go without making a huge mess. It could get me through the next couple of months or whenever he is ready to hold it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

When are you feeding? Are you free feeding, cause that could be part of the problem. Scheduled feedings make scheduled poo/pees more possible.

When are you really walking him, not just putting him out in the yard? If I were you, if I had to get up 30 minutes earlier to go out for a walk/ run to make sure he poos/pees, it would be worth it.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TihannahI'm in no way an expert on this matter, but have dealt with it with several puppies and can feel your frustration. I had a male yorkie with the same issue. I thought the crate training thing was a hoax because he would mess in his crate and then literally lay in it. The mess was horrible. And I can't tell you that I was ever able to solve this issue. But he was equally as bad outside the crate. He would lift his leg on everything, no matter how many times I took him out, and finally after 2 and half years I gave up and sold him. Ever since then, I have only owned female dogs. And they have all been so much easier. I have a 2 yr old chihuahua and a 3.5 month old GSD female that both could stay in the crate during my 9-5 work day without problems. My chihuahua, in fact, no longer even needs to be crated. She eventually understood why she was being crated and now she roams free in the home all day and will not mess. My 3.5 month old GSD has never since I brought her home at 9 weeks, messed in her crate. So I can't say for sure if its a male thing, but I know I have had a much easier time crate/house training my females. I do know that the space you've created in the kitchen is probably too much room for him and gives him the space he needs to do his business. That is one thing they tell you in crate training. And as you've seen, it doesn't bother him to step in a little poop. Is his crate too big? He should only have enough room to stand and lay down comfortably. I hope you're able to get some help with this!


When I was using the crate method. His crate was only big enough for him to lay in. Not big enough for him to walk around in. Agreed, that the kitchen is obviously WAY too big a space for him. I just haven't found an alternative method yet and it's easier to take a mop to the floor than it is to find a way to get a dog full of (you know what) through the rest of the (rugged) house and into a tub not to mention finding a way to thoroughly clean and disinfect his crate everyday. 

The crate works wonderfully with the Pug. Though I think you may be on to something with the male/female thing. The pug has had memory lapses in the past where he will lift his leg and just be down right defiant. It hasn't happened in a while (unless I just haven't caught him). I wish my wife and kid picked a female GSD, I had actually (before getting to the breeder) tried enticing them to get a female. When we got there all bets were off and they settled on this demon I let into my house. haha.


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

Sawyer, I actually built a 3' by 4' box and put cedar tow (sp?) in it. It is much finer than cedar chips and the couple of days I had to use it (she had the runs and my son couldn't let her out as much that day) she used the box and didn't make a mess. It was out in the garage in a "run". I left the garage door open and the radio playing so it felt more like she was still in the house. I was surprised she didn't make a huge mess..... my dog is very active and doesn't stop unless I crate her for a time out.

My dog is female, and my last 2 also. I have only had one male GS mix and this was before I used crates. I don't remember about that male dog, but my females have all been easy to house train.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeWhen are you feeding? Are you free feeding, cause that could be part of the problem. Scheduled feedings make scheduled poo/pees more possible.
> 
> When are you really walking him, not just putting him out in the yard? If I were you, if I had to get up 30 minutes earlier to go out for a walk/ run to make sure he poos/pees, it would be worth it.


I dont have an attached backyard so I am with the two dogs on the poop walks and verify that they both do go poop on these walks. If one doesn't go I make a mental note of it so I could take them out again before the end of the night. 

The minute we get outside I'm giving the "bathroom" command which they know means nose to floor and do your business. If I see them busy messing around I tell them "hurry up, because we are going back INside" this usually gets them going because they know its the last call. 

Our outside time is very productive. Sometimes the GSD even goes more than once while we wait for the Pug who has to sniff for a good amount of time before findind the "sweet spot" to squat on. lol These dogs really crack me up. I complain about them all the time but I would probably be lost without them. They can be really frustrating at times though.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think it should be better in a few months. But, honestly every dog is different. I don't have the answer. I have had to have someone let mine out if I was not home. In good weather, they stayed out in a pen but I don't really like to do that with no one home. The more a pup is left for a period longer than he can wait, the harder the training will be. I know you have to work to pay the bills, but please be open to the fact that having a full-time job is going to be hard on puppy raising and training and the dog is not at fault for this.


I was thinking feeding schedule is critical, but a puppy has to get a fair amount of calories in a day. My 7 mo old is currently having to eat three times a day to keep weight appropriate. You might look at feeding in the afternoon and evening and making night pottying happen.

My friend came home to poopy mess on Christmas Day with her 12 month old. They just aren't foolproof on this. I, myself wouldn't be and am wondering right now about that last hour on a plane when I won't be allowed to get up and go!

It is not easy with a puppy and a full time job. I have never done that without help in the daytime. I have friends who do an indoor kennel and they create a room where they have a cement floor like a basement and put cedar in an area of it. 
Some create a doggy door to a small outside fenced area. 

Dogs just don't adapt to our modern lifestyle so easily. I have gotten a group of friends on town and we help each other out on days when someone has to be gone for an extended period. 

Of course, a GSD puppy is only going to make a toy of any papers, pads, boxes, etc. If you can't create a space for him to relieve himself or have a way for him to be let out, he is going to be very difficult to keep clean or housebreak. With age the ability to hold it will come, but with the inability to be in a situation where he can frequently go out, the house training may take longer because he is currently being trained to go inside.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: bcannieSawyer, I actually built a 3' by 4' box and put cedar tow (sp?) in it. It is much finer than cedar chips and the couple of days I had to use it (she had the runs and my son couldn't let her out as much that day) she used the box and didn't make a mess. It was out in the garage in a "run". I left the garage door open and the radio playing so it felt more like she was still in the house. I was surprised she didn't make a huge mess..... my dog is very active and doesn't stop unless I crate her for a time out.
> 
> My dog is female, and my last 2 also. I have only had one male GS mix and this was before I used crates. I don't remember about that male dog, but my females have all been easy to house train.


Hhmm, I guess I could try it out. I have nothing to lose really. I wish I had an attached garage with a run. lol I would have tried something like this a long time ago. Easier to sweep the mess if he does make a mess of it. 

Just had a flashback of when I took Sawyer to the beach and also out in the snow. He likes to dig into fine grade particles (sand, snow) is the cedar tow like a kitty-litter? I can see him shoveling all of the stuff out onto my kitchen floor. He can be a tyrant at times. lol


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Are you feeding before you leave for work?


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

Cedar tow is fine "strands" of cedar. It looks like shreads. I had an advantage because the breeder used a set up that was kind of the same as the pups got older. The box was out of boards from Home Depot. I nailed some leftover vinal on the bottom of it. Someone had suggested plastic (garbage bags maybe?) but I KNEW she would dig down and chew that. I didn't care if she chewed the edge of the box.  I also put her in the box a couple of times when I knew she had to go and then praised her, and also put some of the cedar stuff where would go outside. I have ended up not needing this set-up, but I have it if I need to. 

I am too paranoid to leave her outside in a run, and it is too cold here right now anyway.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaI think it should be better in a few months. But, honestly every dog is different. I don't have the answer. I have had to have someone let mine out if I was not home. In good weather, they stayed out in a pen but I don't really like to do that with no one home. The more a pup is left for a period longer than he can wait, the harder the training will be. I know you have to work to pay the bills, but please be open to the fact that having a full-time job is going to be hard on puppy raising and training and the dog is not at fault for this.
> 
> 
> I was thinking feeding schedule is critical, but a puppy has to get a fair amount of calories in a day. My 7 mo old is currently having to eat three times a day to keep weight appropriate. You might look at feeding in the afternoon and evening and making night pottying happen.
> ...


Unfortunately, I agree with everything you have said. It just really sucks because I know what is happening and that's why I am wondering when they are physically able to hold it. 

This is exactly what happened with my Pug. He used to have an area to go in inside the house. We trained him to go inside. When we moved last year I confined him to an area and finally housebroke him. He was already 2 years old though and holding it was not a problem. It only took two weeks and his entire 2 years of life he went to the bathroom inside. I know he will eventually the GSD will be able to hold it. I just wonder how I can make the time in between a bit easier. 

The Pug poop was tiny and he NEVER wanted to go near it. This GSD, poops and then ALWAYS finds a way to get a paw into it. 

I guess I my real question should be revised a bit. It's not so much that the housebreaking is going south. It's going, it's just going to take a while. 

The real question is, "How can I make the extended period of time it's going to take to housebreak my GSD, an easier one that will make living with him a joy rather than a nuisance" Obviously, picking up a mess isn't ever going to be fun; however, cat owners do this regularly and it's not really a nuisance. I could get used to daily clean-ups. The things I have to do when I get home from work just to clean up my kitchen are insane. 

HELP!


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but your post really strikes a nerve with me (and I'll bet with many others)! Your situation has predictability written all over it.

I realize that you are looking to the board for help but it’s apparent, to me anyway, that you have done very little homework regarding owning and raising a puppy. Puppies are babies and even though each one is different they remain babies for quite some time.
An 8 month old puppy should not be expected to spend the whole day locked in his crate while you are at work.







IF he is going in the house and in his crate it’s because he is absolutely desperate!



> Quote:*When he is out he holds it for long periods of time. He really doesn't ever relieve himself when I have him out and I am around.
> 
> I have used enzyme cleaners, white vinegar and everything under the sun in terms of getting the scent out. It doesn't matter to him in the least. He will relieve himself without a problem when I am not around. He used to be crated but that got a bit out of hand since no one ever gave him the memo that dogs dont go where they sleep.
> *


He doesn’t “GO” when and where you expect him to because you haven’t taught him to do so.







It’s basic and couldn’t any easier. Our puppies learn this before they even go to their new homes! You need to go back to the beginning and teach yourself how to teach this puppy!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaAre you feeding before you leave for work?


I feed him breakfast when I wake up and walk him before I leave for work. Confirmed that he does poop/pee before I leave in the AM.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: EJQI’m sorry if this sounds harsh but your post really strikes a nerve with me (and I'll bet with many others)! Your situation has predictability written all over it.
> 
> I realize that you are looking to the board for help but it’s apparent, to me anyway, that you have done very little homework regarding owning and raising a puppy. Puppies are babies and even though each one is different they remain babies for quite some time.
> An 8 month old puppy should not be expected to spend the whole day locked in his crate while you are at work.
> ...


Honestly, read my posts before you begin to attack me. My dog is NOT crated all day. In fact, he has too much space. If your not going to read the entire thread and don't have any suggestions for me please refrain from posting on my thread. 

I don't really care if I struck your nerve. This really isn't about you...is it?


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: EJQI’m sorry if this sounds harsh but your post really strikes a nerve with me (and I'll bet with many others)! Your situation has predictability written all over it.
> 
> I realize that you are looking to the board for help but it’s apparent, to me anyway, that you have done very little homework regarding owning and raising a puppy. Puppies are babies and even though each one is different they remain babies for quite some time.
> An 8 month old puppy should not be expected to spend the whole day locked in his crate while you are at work.
> ...


I am going to answer your post even though it's filled with assumptions rather than questions.

It's true, I am looking to this board for help and alternative methods as there is no "right" way to raise a puppy as there is really no "right" way to do anything. There are multiple ways to do things. 

I guess maybe the "homework" part just never really works when it comes to real life situations. I have read many books on the subject, had dogs growing up, had dogs before my GSD, surfed this site for almost a year before I became a member, not to mention a dozen other sites on the topic. I guess since you have already compared it to raising a baby, I will entertain the idea. I have two children. I come from a family of 5 children. I read many books on raising a child and so did my spouse. NONE of that literature really means anything when it comes down to actually raising your kids. You can use that literature and wipe your behind with it. That's really all it's good for. I don't know if you have children, but if you do (or once you do), you will know what I am talking about. 

I didn't really expect my 8 month old pup to hold it. Rather I wanted to know what age (approximately) it is expected for them to hold it for longer periods of time. 

When I DID crate him in the beginning. He would go in it even if I was gone for an hour, which would ultimately end up in me having to bathe the dog plus clean/disinfect the crate. I do not crate train him in that method anymore. He did make improvements when I removed the crate from the equation. Maybe this was a bad move? I don't know. According to the "text books" he wasn't supposed to relieve himself in the crate. Maybe the breeder allowed this? Regardless of the reason, I am trying to adapt a different method to find something that works. 

He does GO where I want him to when I am home and able to take him. I guess my real dilemma is finding a way to teach him to go somewhere when I am not home that is not as messy as the current situation. Some have mentiond a box with Cedar. I may look into this. Do you have another suggestion? 

I guess since my dog relieves himself while I'm not home. That makes me a loser that fails at life. Now that we have made the determination that I'm a degenerate. Let's see if we could find a solution to my current problem.

Thanks for any suggestions you may offer.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

I have to agree with Sawyer. 
1) The dog isn't crated, he's partitioned in a part of the house, and
2) I have recommended several friends to the head of the rescue group I got Bear from, and her response is the same as yours. Not just with puppies, but young dogs period. She is always concerned when someone tells her they work an eight or nine hour job. WHO DOESN'T?!?!?! Based on the way I see some people talk, and I got the same feeling from your response, no one should ever adopt a dog unless they're home all day. Well, in the real world people work. Should they never have a dog?
As for the age of the dog, at 8 months old, a puppy is NOT a "baby", a puppy is on the verge of adolescence . While the idea they might have accidents is not crazy, they should be capable of holding it for that period of time, and definitely having more days where they DO hold it, then don't.
Just my two cents, but it "struck a nerve" with me the way you responded, because I've heard it so often from others. Reality is dogs will have accidents, and bumps along the way to adulthood, but Sawyer's expectations aren't crazy, out-there, or even unreasonable, and she/he came here looking for help.
I can tell you I rescued an older adult dog specifically because I don't want to deal with the issue you are, but I'm also intimately involved in the rearing of four dogs currently, one who will be a "teen" shortly, one who IS a baby (10 weeks), another who is literally 5 days old (Mom rejected the pups and a surrogate hasn't been found yet) and still another whose also a "baby" (14 weeks). They are all large breed dogs, but not ALL are GSD's. In fact, only the ten week old is. The only thing I can tell you is control the feeding/watering, take them out every 45 minutes when you ARE home to reinforce the "idea", and maybe find someone who CAN let them out? That may be impossible (Likely it is), but it would give you a definite advantage in teaching Junior to hold it if the "hold it" didn't last as long, but you're not doing anything "wrong", so don't worry.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: EJQAn 8 month old puppy should not be expected to spend the whole day locked in his crate while you are at work.


I respectfully disagree. Mauser was staying in his crate 8+ hours by the time he was 6 months old with no problems.



> Quote:IF he is going in the house and in his crate it’s because he is absolutely desperate!


Not necessarily. Puppies purchased from pet stores are VERY difficult to housebreak because they had no choice but to go where they sleep. It's how they were raised and it can be VERY hard to break.

And there are some dogs that just don't care about being messy. They also are harder to housebreak.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I sounds like, when you are there, he is great. When you are not there he knows he has to do something, so he just potties where he is. He probably "never got the memo" not to poop where you sleep. It's really common in puppies who come from more of a mass production (puppy mill) type of environment, not to say that your's has.

I think you're going to have to just wait it out. Make sure that when you are home there are no accidents. When you aren't home, there's not much you can do. 

I had a similar problem with my female. It may not help, but I'll tell you what happened. She also peed and pooped in her crate, and like you, I got really tired of washing out the dog and the crate maybe twice a day. I borrowed a smaller crate from a friend. Smaller than I normally would use. She could curl up and move around, but that's all. It cured her of soiling her crate. And before you say it's cruel. (And it is.) She was never in it for more than 4 hours a day, and it didn't take long for her to learn what she needed to learn. 

Also, I didn't read all the other posts. So, make sure there's no water with the dog when you are at work, and also stick to a rigid feeding schedule. I feed my dogs twice a day, at 7 am and 5 pm.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

hm.
maybe the dog has seperation anxiety?
just a thought.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well I, myself, think you realize what is going on. I also think it kinda gets people when we post and say "my dog is doing this" etc. Sorry people don't always react well. It takes more to say "my approach and my situation have trained my dog to do this" and then seek an answer. Does that make sense? 

I think you are looking at maturity and then that will not be the complete answer because early training is the most difficult to change. 

added:

Separation anxiety or upset could contribute as mentioned. It is very hard on a young to be left alone all day. These are pack animals and to be away from the pack for extended hours can be very stressful. 

I know you do want to think that dogs are doing well with this set up all over as people have to work and still have dogs, but it really often is a quite a bit of trouble due to the requirements of a dog for frequent intervention and for companionship due to genetics of pack need.

My vet got into this problem with his pup. The mom was very busy with three little kids and the intensive training of frequent trips out, etc didn't happen. He too was amazed his GSD wouldn't stay clean in the crate. They don't do this well unless you able to spend a great deal of time with them 24/7. I ended up taking his pup for 4 months of retraining. I cleaned a lot crates in the beginning. It took a fair amount of work to get her turned around. She is well over a year now and good, but does have an extensive outdoor life.

I think you are going to have to ferret out a way to make this managable regarding clean up and your living space and then be very patient because the foundation of not being clean in the house is well laid. The dog is only doing what it knows because of upbringing and is physically able to achieve, as you know.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

also, is a doggydoor an option?
or even an area on the balcony, if you have one.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DrDoomI have to agree with Sawyer.
> 1) The dog isn't crated, he's partitioned in a part of the house, and
> 2) I have recommended several friends to the head of the rescue group I got Bear from, and her response is the same as yours. Not just with puppies, but young dogs period. She is always concerned when someone tells her they work an eight or nine hour job. WHO DOESN'T?!?!?! Based on the way I see some people talk, and I got the same feeling from your response, no one should ever adopt a dog unless they're home all day. Well, in the real world people work. Should they never have a dog?
> As for the age of the dog, at 8 months old, a puppy is NOT a "baby", a puppy is on the verge of adolescence . While the idea they might have accidents is not crazy, they should be capable of holding it for that period of time, and definitely having more days where they DO hold it, then don't.
> ...


Thanks, for your suggestions and understanding. My wife believes that he is making some progress and takes the good days with the bad days. 

I do understand that in our current situation the dog will take longer to housebreak but I know it is possible. I know many people who are dog owners and work 40+ hours a week and their dogs are housebroken.

My concern was trying to find a method to have the dog relieve himself in a certain location inside my kitchen (the way my pug used to when he was pup) until the pup is old enough to hold it. I realise that it is completely unreasonable to expect the dog to be fully housebroken at his age when there is no one to walk him during the day. That's why I am trying to accomodate him as well as myself until that day is possible.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Just my 2cents.

I think since he's still pretty young, that 9-5 is a long time for him to hold it (certainly not a judgement, people have to work!) 

Also, maybe he gets a little stressy/anxious during the day and well, we know what happens to US when we get stressy, usually we have to go potty))

I have no idea if your kitchen area is big enough, but an alternative I saw someone use with small dogs, (and I imagine it could work with bigger ones!)...is the box type thing, that one poster talked about, but instead of chips, use that fake grass carpet. Line the box with plastic and cover with a cut piece of the fake grass stuff.

As well as being stressed, hopefully, he is not making a 'habit' of peeing /pooping in this area while your gone. But again, at 8 months, I'm not sure that he could hold it that long..

ANyhow good luck !!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Kaitykaityalso, is a doggydoor an option?
> or even an area on the balcony, if you have one.


I wish! I live on the second floor of a two-family house and I have no access to the backyard from my house. My father-in-law lives downstairs but we do not own the house. One day, if we do end up buying the house I want to put a door at the back of the house giving us access to the yard. 

As of right now, I am with my dogs everytime they go to the bathroom, which I guess is good because I can monitor them during this time.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAJust my 2cents.
> 
> I think since he's still pretty young, that 9-5 is a long time for him to hold it (certainly not a judgement, people have to work!)
> 
> ...


Okay, I have seen this fake grass you speak of! Please explain how that works? lol I saw it in a training facility once but have no idea where to get one or how it works. 

If it's truly fake and possibly fixed into the case where he can't rip it out. I think it may be a good solution. I just need more info about it.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

A couple questions.

Is it mostly pee or does he also poop while you are gone?

If it's mostly pee a simple quick fix is to get a belly band. It's a wrap that goes around their waist, covering their penis. Inside the wrap is a pad (I use a female sanitary napkin). That way if they DO pee it gets soaked up by the pad in the wrap.

I have used these before for my boy Remi when he had bladder control issues (he leaked).


Another idea - sometimes dogs learn things by accident. Your boy may have learned that once you leave he needs to pee.

Try this. Go about your normal morning routine, getting ready to leave for work. Leave the house, drive off, circle the block, drive back up, go back in the house and take him out to go pee. If he does go give him lots of praise and then put him back in the house and then really leave.

It also helps to teach a dog to go on command. My Cocker, Tazer, is starting to have bladder control issues. On nights when it's VERY nasty outside I can open the door and tell him GO POTTY and he'll run and pee right away.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Really not judging you at all! With your living and working situation, I think what is going on is not suprising. I would actually expect it. 

Hang in there! Be patient and don't resent the dog because it is us humans who ask them to adapt to situations that can be pretty challenging.

Also, I have never gotten a pup when there couldn't be frequent interaction and pottying etc. I get an older dog in those situations. I don't know how people who work and don't have a kennel situation pull it off in real life.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Nah, you don't wish! I hate doggy doors!







Like my dogs would ever get that much control, or know what to do with it...it would be terrifying to them and to me knowing they could just go in and out, with whatever they caught in their mouth...totally blowing my vet budget out of the water when they obstruct on a rock. It's like leaving them outside unattended but worse, because then they, or other animals their size who can get in the fence, can get in the house too! 

You'll work it out. Would your FIL be willing or able to let him out every day half-way through? Is there a trusted friend or family member who could? That is what I would be looking for and would pay for someone to do it. Heck, I worked a job where I NEVER got potty breaks and finally I told my secretary that part of her job was to run interference for me so I could get to the restroom! So, I guess I've paid for me to go potties in the daytime too! 

I think he's learned if he has to go, he had better do it, and it doesn't matter where. I kind of understand this...it is a little painful to hold it and it can create other problems like UTIs or impacted bowels. 

They do make big hunks of indoor sod type stuff like someone said, and not just for smaller dogs from what I can tell! I think I've seen an ad on this site. 

You can't fix really what you aren't home for...that's what makes this so hard. 

I do know a smaller sized crate will possibly work, as much as that alternative makes me feel all short of breath! But if it's for a short time, that's not so bad. You will know then if he can hold it or not, and if he can't you need to work for him. 

And here's a weird thought-talk to the dog. Either yourself or through a communicator. Yeah, I know...but I will tell you that when Mariele was still peeing and pooping in the house after almost 8 months (she was over a year-head injury) the thing she wanted to do was to sleep out of her bed. So I made a deal with her, don't poop in the house in the daytime, sleep out of your crate at night. Weirdest thing, she stopped pottying in the house. I would remind her every morning. The one day she made a mistake, that night she walked right into her crate. I cannot explain it.







I know I sound INSAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE, but whatever, it worked! 

Bottom line (no pun) after the rambling- pay for someone to let him out. A little money will take away a lot of stress for all!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks to all who have been making suggestions. It helps to spark some new ideas.

The infomercial for this thing is so wacked out I laughed during it but I wonder if it would work.

Check this out:

https://www.besttvbuys.com/pottypatch/ver3/index.asp?did=978&refcode=p2

Its called, "The Potty Patch" LOL


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen those Unfortunately I think I know what my 7 month old GSD would do with a potty patch and its not use the potty! I also wondered how you empty a gallon of big dog pee?!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Sawyer498Thanks to all who have been making suggestions. It helps to spark some new ideas.
> 
> The infomercial for this thing is so wacked out I laughed during it but I wonder if it would work.
> 
> ...


Do they have a GSD sized one? 

One thing I know about my dogs is, if they have to go, really have to go and I'm not there,they will do it on a small area rug. So, maybe a 3 x 4 piece of indoor/outdoor carpet (or fake grass) with something underneigth would work.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

that grass looks like the fake stuff,,but yeah not a big area on that infomercial.

The "fake" stuff, (I'm not sure you can find it now, may be out of season?) You could check lowes/homedepot, I know places like walmart carry it in the spring/summer..You can buy it in rolls, some people put it on their decks.

It's basically fake grass) I'd line an area with plastic and put the grass on top cut to the size of the area with boards to hold it in place/block in an area ..

Too bad he wouldn't use kitty litter)))


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Blackpuppy- They have a large size 27" x 34" for larger dogs. 

Samba- lol, good question! I have no idea. I guess maybe there is a pan of some sort underneath the face grass? My wife asked where the poop goes. lol I think you just have to pick up out of the fake grass. 

That's my biggest concern. Sawyer is a curious type. He would pee on pee-pads and then shred them. I guess he just got tired of looking at them and thought it would be fun to destroy them. I dont really know how he would react to this thing or if he would even attempt to use it but I guess stranger things have happened. 

So far, the options are getting some sort of box to put into the kitchen and filling it with cedar or this fake grass stuff. Anyone else use anything different that works for them? I'm open to all and any solutions. 

Thanks again.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAthat grass looks like the fake stuff,,but yeah not a big area on that infomercial.
> 
> The "fake" stuff, (I'm not sure you can find it now, may be out of season?) You could check lowes/homedepot, I know places like walmart carry it in the spring/summer..You can buy it in rolls, some people put it on their decks.
> 
> ...


Haha, I tried kitty litter with my pug when he was young and he hated it. He never take to it and I have had experience in the past training a rather large rabbit I used to have to relieve himself in kitty litter. lol People thought I was crazy. I had a pet rabbit the same way some people would have cats. He would just lay around the house and when he had to use the bathroom he would go in a litter box. 

I haven't had any luck with dogs though...I have a feeling if I tried it with Sawyer he would dig it all out as if he would eventually hit China on the other side or something. He dug into the beach this summer when I took him out there. He looked all too happy doing it too. I could see my entire kitchen becoming a litter box.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Well, excuuuuussse me (as Steve Martin would say)!!!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My take on this is that you really need someone to get home mid day for a toilet break for a while. Probably can wean him off that after a week or so. You are kinda setting him up for failure. I'd rather have mine wade through it (she has on occassion and it IS frustrating) than eat it (she has on occassion but I think that's getting better.) 

IF you can't do that you might try piddle pads. They are rather amazing. Walgreens has them fairly cheap right now.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I luv Steve Martin!! Saw him live when I was just a pup!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think you should take your dog out more often.
take your dog out over night. instead of leaving your dog
crated 9:00 to 5:00 have a sitter come in and let him
out (several times if needed).


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereMy take on this is that you really need someone to get home mid day for a toilet break for a while. Probably can wean him off that after a week or so. You are kinda setting him up for failure. I'd rather have mine wade through it (she has on occassion and it IS frustrating) than eat it (she has on occassion but I think that's getting better.)
> 
> IF you can't do that you might try piddle pads. They are rather amazing. Walgreens has them fairly cheap right now.


I have tried pads. He uses them and turns them into confetti and has New Years style celebrations in my kitchen. Then I have to be the party pooper when I get home stop the party and pick up the mess.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi think you should take your dog out more often.
> take your dog out over night. instead of leaving your dog
> crated 9:00 to 5:00 have a sitter come in and let him
> out (several times if needed).


I take him out multiple times when I am home with him. In fact, he gets my attention rather well when he has to go outside to do his business. He gets real annoying and in my face and starts lifting my arms as if to get me to rise up onto my feet and take him out. 

He never has accidents when I am home. It's when I'm not there that these accidents happen. I'm not really comfortable with letting strangers into my home when I'm not there. I don't know maybe it's just a Jersey thing or I'm just not that trusting of people I don't really know. I wish there was someone I knew who could walk him but if there was...I wouldn't be here right now discussing this issue. 

I have thought of bringing a crate to my fathers house which is 15 minutes from my job and dropping him off there in the AM and then going there at lunch time to walk him. That would mean he really would be in a crate for several hours at a time though. He has an older lab that roams around the house all day I don't know how Sawyer would react to him being crated and the other dog being loose. I guess maybe I could give that a try.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I fear that if I take this course of action. He may continue to relieve himself in the crate which is never a pretty site and then there is the problem that it's not my house and I will be the reason my father's house stinks. Not too sure how long that arrangement would last. lol

If he did make a mess of the crate at my father's house my resources would be limited as far as cleaning him up is concerned. I would have to drag him outside in the blistering cold and hose him down. That's not a comfortable situation for either me or the dog. hehe.

I wish it was still warm outside. Then it wouldn't be a problem. I could hose him down everyday if need be until he held it.


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