# Lookin to breed my dog



## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

So I'm thinking about breeding my dog next year. I'm located in South Jersey. Is there anyone here who would be interested in kind of taking me under their wing and helping me find a bitch and produce a very high quality shepherd? 
Before you go jumping down my throat and stand on your soapbox to yell at me at how horrible I am for even thinking it cause you're all so perfect and nothing worse has ever happened (LOL)....
No I'm not just looking to breed him because I love him, or for money, or for bad reasons lol. He is a truly great, sound dog with an amazing temperament, good nerves, and great health. I've had lots of people offer to buy him from me, (not just strangers...but people who are deeply involved in the working dog world and with competitions/SCH). They've offered me money for stud service before, but I passed and those offers are no longer on the table. He comes from a really great, healthy, stable Czech/West German working lines. 
Anyways...if you're serious about helping me out and take me under your wing to really produce a high quality dog, please let me know...I'm trying to reach out to find someone who is really knowledgeable and can help guide me in all areas of this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not a working-line person, and too far away anyway, but a good place to start might be with your breeder.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why aren't some of those "who are deeply involved in the working
dog world" taking you under their wing? you met with them.



LissG said:


> So I'm thinking about breeding my dog next year. I'm located in South Jersey. Is there anyone here who would be interested in kind of taking me under their wing and helping me find a bitch and produce a very high quality shepherd?
> Before you go jumping down my throat and stand on your soapbox to yell at me at how horrible I am for even thinking it cause you're all so perfect and nothing worse has ever happened (LOL)....
> No I'm not just looking to breed him because I love him, or for money, or for bad reasons lol. He is a truly great, sound dog with an amazing temperament, good nerves, and great health.
> 
> ...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Have you done all the health testing on wolf yet? OFA hips and elbows? DM?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

LissG, Did you really just start an "I wannabe a breeder" thread? You've been here long enough to know better than that! 

As you well know, he's going to need to be titled if you want the forum to sanction any ideas of breeding.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

Could you post his pedigree? There are some wonderful people here who can give you a heads up on what his genes can bring to the table, and certain traits that might bring some health, temperament problems. Is there anything special that you would like to share about him? Has he acquired any titles? Please don't take offense, people are going to ask some blunt questions. They do not say it to sound mean, they love the breed as much as you and I do, and their only intention is the betterment of the breed. Good luck.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

And yeah, why don't you talk to your breeder if you are serious about doing this? If your breeder finds out through the grapevine that you're talking about breeding an untitled dog you bought from them, it may not be received well. You should have a good enough relationship with your breeder that you can talk to them if you are considering breeding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I thought it was against board rules to run ads for stud service?


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Do you honestly think you are going to be the one person who is going to hear "Sure, I've got a great female, let's get them together!" on this forum? I've only been on here for a few months and even I know you are either kidding or slightly delusional!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

kjdreyer said:


> Do you honestly think you are going to be the one person who is going to hear "Sure, I've got a great female, let's get them together!" on this forum? I've only been on here for a few months and even I know you are either kidding or slightly delusional!


She's not asking for a bitch to breed her male to. She's asking for someone to help her find an appropriate match and to help her along the way. Someone to take her under their wing. Like a breeding mentor.

Liss... wolf is one of cliff's dogs, right? Have you talked to him about this? He can probably point you in the right direction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I took the take-me-under-their-wing thing as looking for a mentor.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

or a round about way to say she's looking to stud out her "truly great, sound dog with an amazing temperament, good nerves, and great health to really produce a high quality dog, please let me know." Most people with males aren't going to purchase a bitch just to produce one litter with said male. 

I agree with the others that said please have Cliff mentor you....he'd know what lines would compliment Wolf's pedigree or where to find a breeder that may be willing to help you get another high quality dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

So does this Cliff guy title his dogs, health certs, contracts, follows up, train his own dogs? Is he a reputable breeder?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liss - are you working your dog at a club? If so, why not ask the people there? If not, why not join a club and work your dog? Not sure you far into NJ you are but there are 3 good clubs around Philly.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If the Op wasn't known and the dog was of the same caliber but not from Cliff, this thread would have 50 posts right now and be at the top of the charts for some time to come.

I think Cliff can deal with it. Maybe he can even find some humor in it unlike anyone else.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> If the Op wasn't known and the dog was of the same caliber but not from Cliff, this thread would have 50 posts right now and be at the top of the charts for some time to come.
> 
> I think Cliff can deal with it. Maybe he can even find some humor in it unlike anyone else.


It's late, Andy. Everyone's already sleeping. There's always tomorrow.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> It's late, Andy. Everyone's already sleeping. There's always tomorrow.


Your right. I live in California so I expect everyone to be up. Well maybe the fun will begin tomorrow.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> If the Op wasn't known and the dog was of the same caliber but not from Cliff, this thread would have 50 posts right now and be at the top of the charts for some time to come.
> 
> I think Cliff can deal with it. Maybe he can even find some humor in it unlike anyone else.


 
Hahaha You're so right. I even caught myself thinking like that. Like "well I'm sure it's a sound dog so just get health checks and...". Right like that would fly otherwise.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Hahaha You're so right. I even caught myself thinking like that. Like "well I'm sure it's a sound dog so just get health checks and...". Right like that would fly otherwise.


Yeah. I want a puppy from that dog. The heck with all those titles health checks etc....

Myco, you wanna co-own a puppy from that dog?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Yeah. I want a puppy from that dog. The heck with all those titles health checks etc....
> 
> Myco, you wanna co-own a puppy from that dog?


 
YES! hahaha Well that's one puppy sold.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> If the Op wasn't known and the dog was of the same caliber but not from Cliff, this thread would have 50 posts right now and be at the top of the charts for some time to come.


Maybe people on here are tired of the same 'ol, same 'ol? Doesn't really matter where the dog came from.. 

If she's truly looking for a mentor, then like a few others have suggested, maybe the breeder is a good place to start or can point her in the right direction.. Heck maybe she can even go out and train with the breeder if she doesn't already..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is my one post on this subject.....I don't conduct breeding business on open public forums, partially because I neither condone nor adhere to all of the opinions of what the breeding monitors think are appropriate policies. 
I do help people get great sound dogs, either through my breeding or through references. I will put the quality of these dogs up for examination by any of the pseudo experts on breeding on this forum. The serious breeders on this forum know the quality of dogs I deal with. 
I do not own the dog that is being discussed by the OP, though he is of top quality. 
Again, I don't believe in many of the (emotional) things that others do, I only wish to see the breed in excellent shape and I think my views and actions have made a difference. 
TY


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the OP was asking about a "mentor" and didn't ask for opinions on whether her dog is 'stud' material or not. 

Going back to her breeder is a good suggestion, and if anyone has another recommendation for a mentor, just throw it out there.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Maybe people on here are tired of the same 'ol, same 'ol? Doesn't really matter where the dog came from..
> 
> If she's truly looking for a mentor, then like a few others have suggested, maybe the breeder is a good place to start or can point her in the right direction.. Heck maybe she can even go out and train with the breeder if she doesn't already..


Does it have to be the breeder-I mean there are so many people that you could train with-why the breeder -that's just kinda boring-I train with b-eagles-really-and they are kinda cute:wub:


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

OH MY GOD! *I am NOT* asking for someone to go "hey here's my bitch, lets go!!!" *I'm asking for guidance to do this the proper way!* There is no way I would be that irresponsible, I *tried* to make that clear...I'm asking for guidance on what certifications, what titles, where to start. In no way did that original post ask for a bitch to just come over and give me a litter of puppies This is why I'm hardly on here anymore, no matter how good you spell it out people want to assume the worst of you.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> why aren't some of those "who are deeply involved in the working
> dog world" taking you under their wing? you met with them.


Because without any certs/titles/testing/pedigree info a few people have asked to just breed my dog. And they wanted to breed him with dogs I didn't like.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I thought it was against board rules to run ads for stud service?


no ad here, if you READ the whole thing, i'm looking for a mentor to tell me how to go about getting the proper documentation (certs/titles/testing, etc) before I do anything.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

LissG said:


> OH MY GOD! *I am NOT* asking for someone to go "hey here's my bitch, lets go!!!" *I'm asking for guidance to do this the proper way!* There is no way I would be that irresponsible, I *tried* to make that clear...I'm asking for guidance on what certifications, what titles, where to start. In no way did that original post ask for a bitch to just come over and give me a litter of puppies This is why I'm hardly on here anymore, no matter how good you spell it out people want to assume the worst of you.


There is your veterinarian-you could always contact a german shepherd club in your area-if there are obedience clubs-other GSD clubs-your breeder as people suggested-it seems it would be easy to find a mentor-you could even pm Cliff he is in NJ I think


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

oh and I almost forgot schutzhund clubs -oops


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LissG said:


> no ad here, if you READ the whole thing, i'm looking for a mentor to tell me how to go about getting the proper documentation (certs/titles/testing, etc) before I do anything.


It is the way you worded your post LissG. 


> Before you go jumping down my throat and stand on your soapbox to yell at me at how horrible I am for even thinking it cause you're all so perfect and nothing worse has ever happened (LOL)....I've had lots of people offer to buy him from me, (not just strangers...but people who are deeply involved in the working dog world and with competitions/SCH).
> They've offered me money for stud service before, but I passed and those offers are no longer on the table.


I don't think posting a plea(ok, not AD) for a mentor or finding the right bitch on this board will get you where you want to go. Training with people, making contacts in person and asking your males breeder who knows the lines well is a better way to succeed in "really producing a high quality dog", after all, the pedigree match is the most important thing.....it isn't like you'd be the one whelping the litter, unless you are looking to buy a bitch for only one litter, which isn't usually what stud owners do.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You mentioned your dog has great nerves. Could you share in what ways his nerves were tested in regard to bitework?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> If the Op wasn't known and the dog was of the same caliber but not from Cliff, this thread would have 50 posts right now and be at the top of the charts for some time to come.
> 
> I think Cliff can deal with it. Maybe he can even find some humor in it unlike anyone else.


I don't think so. She didn't come here and say I'm going to breed my dog. She asked for a mentor to learn more. I've never seen anyone have an issue with someone asking how to learn more PRIOR to making a decision to breed. It's the 'my dog is great, no papers, anyone wanna breed with him" threads that ppl go berserk at.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LissG said:


> So I'm thinking about breeding my dog next year.


Part of the reason for these soapbox responses is probably the title and the first sentence of the thread.
That gets some people's hackles up and sets the tone for the strong responses. Just my 2 cents.
But the OP has declined requests for breeding him, remember?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LissG said:


> So I'm thinking about breeding my dog next year.


Part of the reason for these soapbox responses is probably the title and the first sentence of the thread.
That gets some people's hackles up and sets the tone for the strong responses. Just my 2 cents.
But the OP has declined requests for breeding him, remember?
I also thought that WD was the best and most awesome dog alive and I also was asked for several breedings. It is flattering but if I wanted another pup like him I would go to his breeder since he breeds the dogs I love.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

THANK YOU JAX!!!!! All I wanted was to find someone to help guide me through the right certs, titles, qualifications, etc BEFORE I do anything. Hence the words "help" "mentor" "take me under their wing"....A short time ago I didn't even know you should have all that before doing anything! I'm trying to do the right thing and be responsible. I don't even know where/how to start to get all that. All I wanted was a poke in the right direction like "contact blablabla and they can give you steps on how to get hips/elbows OKd" "heres a good book/website/blog that goes over how to get started/where to turn for these testings/certs/etc" or something like that...
For the record I did get my dog through Cliff, who is amazing. Don't anybody anywhere ever even think Cliff is less then truly great. He is so knowledgeable and just an overall awesome person who is a library when it comes to Shepherds. He is beyond reputable. Cliff is far from me, so I was just putting feelers out there just to see if someone as good as him was a little closer. With my work schedule, it'd be hard to get together with him. 
I don't understand why I have to justify my every word, every decision, everything on here. Anytime people (not just me) come here for a point in the right direction, to try to learn, to ask for help they just get bombarded with people jumping down their throat. It's exhausting. I deleted all my stuff, I won't be coming to this forum anymore. For those of you who HAVE helped, I appreciate your time. As for the others, you really need to stop and put yourself in someone else's shoes. Someone else's standards may not be as high as yours and they may not be perfect like you...but they are doing the best they can with what they know. Take a second and help them instead of being a butt, and maybe you'll make the whole german shepherd breed/community a little better and a little more knowledgeable.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I was joking around. Some lightness on this forum would help. 

I happen to see humor in a lot of things on here but apparently this is all serious business. I'll try to remember that. 

I can read and was aware the OP was asking for a mentor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

welll....excuse me


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

And I actually thought this thread was going well. No one was really being judgmental for a "i want to breed my dog" thread.

Liss... I'm not going to question your dog's pedigree for a second. The first thing I'd like to see from a potential puppy is health testing from parents. Have you done anything yet? If not, call around to local vets and see who does OFA x-rays and for prices. At the very least, I'd like to see hips/elbows/DM all ofa certified. That's me though. I think that would be a good start.

And out of curiosity... why did you want to breed him? If it's not because you love him or for money or anything like that... what's the reason, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

LissG said:


> I deleted all my stuff, I won't be coming to this forum anymore.


Wow, you've been here long enough that I'm genuinely surprised that you think you can post a "I wanna breed my dog" thread without expecting a certain type of reply. And I'm also disappointed to see that, just like the rest of the people who start such a thread and don't get the responses they like, you're going to take your ball and go home rather than stick around and learn.

I thought you were different... :teary:

I hope you will still seek guidance and counsel rather than marching off and breeding your dog just to spite all of us meanies. Cliff doesn't have to be near you in order to help, email is easy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, when you say you would like to breed your dog next year, which is four months away, and the people here think titles and health certs are needed before you even consider breeding, not to mention knowing what you're doing… people on this forum are bound to get agitated.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *G-burg*
> _Maybe people on here are tired of the same 'ol, same 'ol? Doesn't really matter where the dog came from..
> 
> ...


Of course not... But if it's the breeder who was mentioned, then why not? Given his knowledge and understanding of the breed.. Who better to learn from!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Generally when people walk away, slamming the online door behind them, it is because they don't want to face reality. It is an online tamper tantrum. After cooling down, they may get back.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For the record, the parents of her dog has all the certs and titles that are necessary for breeding in Europe much less America, she has been training for quite a while with the TD of the South Jersey Working Dog Club, a SDA club, and a mentor for me when it comes to training/reading dogs. He informed me last week that her dog is a super representative of the breed that you don't see much. Lastly, she does email me periodically for advice, and frankly if she had asked me about posting this question before doing, I would have advised her NOT to for the exact reasons that took place. In the long run she is ahead of the game because she HAS a really nice dog and that's the important thing.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and I think she mentioned that cliff was rather far from her, she's looking for someone near her I believe..

Liss good luck with your boy I hope you find someone that can guide you thru


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> For the record, the parents of her dog has all the certs and titles that are necessary for breeding in Europe much less America, she has been training for quite a while with the TD of the South Jersey Working Dog Club, a SDA club, and a mentor for me when it comes to training/reading dogs. He informed me last week that her dog is a super representative of the breed that you don't see much. Lastly, she does email me periodically for advice, and frankly if she had asked me about posting this question before doing, I would have advised her NOT to for the exact reasons that took place. In the long run she is ahead of the game because she HAS a really nice dog and that's the important thing.


When she first posted I had no idea who the dog's breeder was, I wish she'd have been more forthcoming with this information rather than making a "wannabe breeder" post as though she were some ignorant newbie. She mentioned nothing about training, titles, or anything--just said she was thinking about breeding her dog. Really sorry she posted it the way she did, because of course people are going to reply the way they have. I thought she knew that!

If the dog is as good as they say, it should be easy to title him.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honestly, who cares who her breeder is. No offense Cliff. 

If the answers you would give are not the same, that's hypocritical. 


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

She asked basically the same question in Jan. of 2012 and was answered. 

Cliff suggested back then for her to not post in a public forum.

So this is a re-hash and I don't understand why she is offended.

Sounds like a nice dog though.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Here is information on getting a CHIC number for your dog. CHIC numbers aren't well known yet, but I think its a good idea. 
Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information

Find out more about hip and elbow certification here. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Information on the GSD club of America Temperament test. Temperament Testing

That should be a good start.

I would also get a AKC DNA Profile. The tests are to confirm parentage of the puppies if there is any question as to the sire. Should keep the owner of the female honest. 
http://classic.akc.org/store/products/index.cfm?category_cde=DNA&product_view=thumb


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes I said I'd like to breed him maybe sometime next year. yes it's a few months away BUT there ARE 12 months in the year. It CAN be done later. In no way did I say January, you assumed that because that's what you want. In the very first post I DID mention that we were offered money for stud service, but I WAS responsible enough to decline. That right there should've said something about me being serious, trying to learn, and do it right... All I asked for was someone close by to see if they wanted to take me under their wing. I didn't realize I had to put a full profile of me, my dog, my life, and a blood sample on here in order for anyone to take it seriously. Is there anyway a moderator can delete this thread so I can stop getting email notifications?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think Liss has made it clear she is looking for some help in her area in mentoring her. 

Any suggestions?? Let's try to answer her question and leave the other stuff out of it.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Once in a while in our lifetime, we get blessed with a super duper good dog that we want to have other families experience the real beauty of having a GSD. 

Your dog did not come from Joe Schmuck Backyard Limited. He obviously is a GOOD DOG. Your breeder knows what he's breeding.

I hope you get the right person who will take you to the top. Misery loves company, just remember that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No offense taken Gsdsar.....hypocrisy is not new to the board....one reason I often ask folks to pm me.....so as to correct misinformation given by the Internet experts.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LissG said:


> Is there anyway a moderator can delete this thread so I can stop getting email notifications?


You can remove this from your subscribed threads and you shouldn't get any more notifications. You can also change your settings so you don't get notifications on any thread you participate in. I think the board default is to automatically subscribe you to any thread you reply to, but you can still opt out of notifications. I've never gotten any on any of my posts or threads. Go to your User CP to change your settings.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You don't need a mentor if you're the owner of a stud. There's nothing to know. You bring your dog someone and they do their thing.

The truth is...in order to get a bitch that is probably up to your dog's pedigree is that you'll have to become a huge walking advertisement for your dog. This includes all of his titles/health certs/ect. The bitch owner will ask YOU if they want your stud service...and the only way a GREAT bitch's owner will do that is if your dog is titled and health certified. Titles will preferably come in the venue that the bitch owner is pursuing themselves. So that's probably why your 12 month period is very short in the minds of many forum members...if you dog hasn't had any training (in a specific venue) its unlikely you'll get the titles that the really great bitches are looking for in the next year.

Look at your dog's own lines and see what he's got in him, and then it can lead you to understand what those types of owners/breeders are looking for. If you think you can get your dog to the level that a bitch that YOU want to breed to would accept him, then go for it and try. But if you want to breed to a very good, SchH1-3 bitch, with good lines, its probably unlikely that you'll get there in a year.

My word of advice...find the closest Schutzhund club and join it. Get involved in the GSD/Schutzhund/dog world and start meeting people and making connections. Those connections will get you the knowledge you need and also the potential mates for your dog. You'll see the type of bitches you might want to breed to and then see if you get offers.

Your dog has a great pedigree...but as of yet the dog himself still hasn't proven anything. And there are tons of dogs out there with great pedigrees that have proven themselves. Understand where you fit in that market...and where your dog stacks up in that market and then maybe you'll understand what it takes to get "picked" by a bitch owner to which you want to breed to as well.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think finding a mentor for someone who wants to learn and is committed is a better way to go than figuring it out on their own, I'm sure it can be quite daunting as it takes YEARS and YEARS of experience to really get down and 'know' pedigrees, what dogs can compliment what dogs etc.

I have had gsd's 'forever' and know what I like, but would never presume to know what combination of breedings to go with or stay away from. 

I guess that's why I was never interested in breeding It's easier for me to ask a more knowledgeable person that I, their take on what I may be interested in, and also easy to pay a breeder for that 'perfect' puppy


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think finding a mentor for someone who wants to learn and is committed is a better way to go than figuring it out on their own, I'm sure it can be quite daunting as it takes YEARS and YEARS of experience to really get down and 'know' pedigrees, what dogs can compliment what dogs etc.
> 
> I have had gsd's 'forever' and know what I like, but would never presume to know what combination of breedings to go with or stay away from.
> 
> I guess that's why I was never interested in breeding It's easier for me to ask a more knowledgeable person that I, their take on what I may be interested in, and also easy to pay a breeder for that 'perfect' puppy


Same here.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks andy, cliff is my go to when I have a "what do you think this would produce" question he 'pegged' Masi, and I'm sure I'll be asking his opinion again sometime in the future


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Honestly, who cares who her breeder is. No offense Cliff.
> 
> If the answers you would give are not the same, that's hypocritical.


How is it "hypocritical"? If we know the OP has a dog from a known and respected breeder, we know her dog at least has a decent pedigree. That's different from someone who bought an unregistered dog from some yokel on Craigslist and wants to breed it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> How is it "hypocritical"? If we know the OP has a dog from a known and respected breeder, we know her dog at least has a decent pedigree. That's different from someone who bought an unregistered dog from some yokel on Craigslist and wants to breed it.


I have two good dogs with decent pedigrees but that wouldn't make me a good breeder.

I think she should get a mentor. The breed can use new breeders who want to do it right. It may not be with this dog but eventually.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have two good dogs with decent pedigrees but that wouldn't make me a good breeder.


No, but if your dog has a decent pedigree AND gets health tested and titled, you might not be doing the breed a disservice. OP says she wants to do it right, and if she's starting with a good dog from a reputable breeder, she's ahead of most wannabe breeders. All she needs is help in how to go about getting health clearances and titles, which I wish she'd specified in her first post.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Freestep said:


> How is it "hypocritical"? If we know the OP has a dog from a known and respected breeder, we know her dog at least has a decent pedigree. That's different from someone who bought an unregistered dog from some yokel on Craigslist and wants to breed it.


Because, the pedigree of the dog does not mean that it's worthy of being bred. Even the best breeders don't only produce breed worthy dogs. Sorry but they don't. 

I find it hypocritical that the thread started in the way they always do, UNTIL, it was made known where she got the dog. Then all of a sudden people were actually answering the question she asked. 

The " requirements" to breed should be the same for everyone. The whole tone changed. That's hypocritical. Either the dog is worthy or not. If HER dog should have a title and health testing, everyone's dogs should. 

Does the OP have more odds in her favor? Yes. But the " requirements" are still the same. Or they should be. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You don't need a mentor if you own the stud??? Well, personally, if the stud dog mates with a female that is not well-suited, and the progeny are less than desireable, the stud dog can get a bad rep. And that wouldn't be in anyone's best interest. Stud dog owners really should have some criteria as to what bitches they will breed to, and part of that should be how the genetics match up. 

Here is where her breeder, who I now know is Cliff, may be a much better choice than anyone that might be nearer. Since he already has a lot of information on the lines of the sire and dam of her puppy, he can give her a much better idea of what to look for and what to avoid in the area of lines. 

I would think a LOT of this could be done through e-mail, and telephone, if he is willing to help someone out. A single trip to let him evaluate the dog in the flesh would make a lot of sense. 

It is nice to hear that he is in contact with her trainer as well. 

Of course having more than one individual's knowledge shouldn't be a bad thing. 

I would stick with Cliff if I had his dog. But I would want a lot of information on the dogs behind my dogs, and maybe I would wear Cliff's ear out. For this reason, I would, if I was Liss, do a LOT of reading on my own, and get to know a lot of other people as well, so that it does not come across as, I want to breed my boy, where do I start? It is more, I have done this, this, this, this, and this, I am interested in any comments on that, but what I think I lack is... 

Anyhow. I think the breeder is where to start.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> Because, the pedigree of the dog does not mean that it's worthy of being bred. Even the best breeders don't only produce breed worthy dogs. Sorry but they don't.
> 
> *I find it hypocritical that the thread started in the way they always do, UNTIL, it was made known where she got the dog. *Then all of a sudden people were actually answering the question she asked.
> 
> ...


Check out post #2. And, no, I did not know who she had her dog from, so I would have given the same advice to anybody on here.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I try to stay out of breeding threads, because I own a mutt shep, he's either pee-poorly bred or a cross - with what - nobody can answer 

However, this thread would have gone this direction no matter who started it or who the dog and original breeder were. If Max himself had posted here, he'd get ripped to shreds, you could have a dog who wins best in show at Westminster and gains every IPO title available, is a top SAR dog and on Super Dogs circuit and there would be people who say he/she should not be bred. It's the nature of the game here. 

If the OP said, Cliff was their mentor, they'd be accused of drinking Cliff's kool-aid. The OP is looking for a local breeder to help them. If you see a doctor your whole life, trust them implicitly, have a health issue, you are exercising due diligence by getting a second opinion. If you didn't folks would say you were an idiot. It's a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation and the OP showed real courage in posting this at all!

I stumbled upon this board when I bought Oz, naive and believing in a sea of BYB's and unscrupulous breeders I might find his, I have learned many lessons on this board and while one dog has had 2 surgeries and the other a small health issue this year, I don't put it on this board - because of the way threads turn. Not saying this board is all bad, because it is not, but I will not be arm chair quarter-backed when I have the animal living in my home, under my discretion for treatments, training and if I decide, breed worthiness. I just read mostly and gain knowledge that way, participate in fun threads LOL. I admire all of you who have convictions greater than mine, but for me, I also applaud those willing to put their desires and questions forward in the face of such convictions.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ozzymama said:


> I stumbled upon this board when I bought Oz, naive and believing in a sea of BYB's and unscrupulous breeders I might find his, I have learned many lessons on this board and while one dog has had 2 surgeries and the other a small health issue this year, I don't put it on this board - because of the way threads turn.


I'm confused. What does that situation have to do with "I wanna stud out my dog" type threads?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Because, the pedigree of the dog does not mean that it's worthy of being bred. Even the best breeders don't only produce breed worthy dogs. Sorry but they don't.


All I'm saying is that a dog from a reputable and respected breeder is one step closer to breeding possibilities than an unregistered Craigslist GSD would be. The first step to considering a breeding, before you even see the dog, is to look at the pedigree. If it is good, you can go on to the next step. If it is poor or unknown, you stop right there and don't consider breeding any further.



> Does the OP have more odds in her favor? Yes. But the " requirements" are still the same. Or they should be.


That's all I'm saying. She has more odds in her favor than the Craigslist dog. From there you discuss the requirements.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How did you Or anyone else KNOW she had a dog from Craiglist to even start in that direction.....ya think that might have contributed to where she is now in her feelings???? I don't mine experts assuming, because they usually have the depth to recognize subtle things that make their assumptions correct more often than not....but as a rule ASSumptions often aren't very productive.jmo!


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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

Cliffson, the reason for the assumption for Craigslist is that its more entertaining for the masses. Many people love to flex their superiority instead of keeping an open mind until all facts are in. Having a well-bred dog, I can understand why the OP didn't state immediately where she got her dog from. It really shouldn't have made a difference in the context of her original question.

But to the defense of (some of) those that assumed she didn't have a dog worthy of breeding most likely have had experiences of bad breeding and the resulting health and temperament issues and know that the average person isn't able to breed to improve the breed. 

I'd LOVE to breed one day. As much as I think my pup is perfect, I know the odds are that he isn't. I have ZERO plans to breed him. I didn't buy him with that in mind. But ONE day, when (& if) I feel like I know enough to contribute to the breed, I might head down that road. But I'll make sure my skin is sufficiently thickened before asking advice on an internet forum. Shame, because the internet provides a far wider range of knowledge and resources than dealing only with breeders you "know" in person. I'm an overanalyzer so its in my nature to question things to death before making decisions.

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with sar, 

it goes like this

"I want to breed my dog"
"WHAT??? who is he? is he titled? is he health certified? what's his pedigree. Do you know how many puppies are born each year? What do you know about breeding?"

"the dog is from xxx"
"OH no problem go ahead"

(and that's no criticism to cliff either) 

Very hypocritical, and very ASSuming..

READ what's written, THINK before typing and STOP & THINK again before hitting the reply button. To many
"gun jumpers" here


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> How did you Or anyone else KNOW she had a dog from Craiglist to even start in that direction.....ya think that might have contributed to where she is now in her feelings???? I don't mine experts assuming, because they usually have the depth to recognize subtle things that make their assumptions correct more often than not....but as a rule ASSumptions often aren't very productive.jmo!


I can't speak for anyone else, but *I* didn't assume anything. My only replies directly to the OP were along the lines of "I can't believe you started a wannabe breeder thread, you should know better than that, you know your dog will need to be titled, right?", and "why don't you consult with your breeder?"

I find that many people who have been on the forum for a while and are savvy enough to buy a dog from a reputable breeder are also savvy enough to know the channels to go through before breeding. That's why I was surprised that she started the thread the way she did, and doubly surprised that she was upset by the inevitable replies.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with sar,
> 
> it goes like this
> 
> ...


That's not exactly how it went down. Upon discovering the dog is actually well bred, in training, and spoken well of by the TD, it answered at least three of the inevitable questions like "what is the pedigree", "why not talk to your breeder" and "how do you KNOW his temperament is good?" All it means is that we don't automatically discard the dog for breeding. 

I know some of you will say we shouldn't EVER automatically discard the dog for breeding, but come on. If someone wants to breed their unregistered Craigslist dog, and the dog's pedigree is unknown or full of BYB dogs, you simply stop right there and don't consider breeding any further. If the dog is well bred, in training, and praised by someone who knows dogs, I don't understand why it's hypocritical to say "Okay, the first things are in place, now let's tackle the rest of the requirements."


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

[/QUOTE] "Okay, the first things are in place, now let's tackle the rest of the requirements."[/QUOTE]

My problem with all theses threads is, who is in charge of the requirements.

If I can get the kind of GSD I want, then whether the parents are titled is not important to me. Titles are great but not the end all. I also don't care one way or the other about contracts. Unless you have a very specific need for a certain type of dog most people won't go for a replacement dog anyway.

My point is that people are being judged by some unwritten "guidelines" that John and Jane Doe came up with and many don't agree with.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

> If I can get the kind of GSD I want, then whether the parents are titled is not important to me. Titles are great but not the end all. I also don't care one way or the other about contracts. Unless you have a very specific need for a certain type of dog most people won't go for a replacement dog anyway.
> 
> My point is that people are being judged by some unwritten "guidelines" that John and Jane Doe came up with and many don't agree with.


Actually those "unwritten" guidelines were drawn up the SV.

Granted, this is America, and we do not have to adhere to SV standards. That's part of why the GSD is in such sorry shape in the US--anyone who works with the public's dogs, vets, trainers, groomers, boarding kennels, etc., knows that the average backyard-bred pet GSD is a hot mess.

I personally am not a title Nazi. There are other ways to prove a dog is worthy of breeding, and in the US, we are free to use any, all, or none of them. But just because the AKC allows any GSD to registered and bred, doesn't make it ethical to breed just any GSD--the breed we love will go down the toilet if we breed without any standards at all.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Asking questions is not the same as making assumptions. Nobody assumed or implied that she had an unregistered dog bought off Craigslist.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Actually those "unwritten" guidelines were drawn up the SV.
> 
> Granted, this is America, and we do not have to adhere to SV standards. That's part of why the GSD is in such sorry shape in the US--anyone who works with the public's dogs, vets, trainers, groomers, boarding kennels, etc., knows that the average backyard-bred pet GSD is a hot mess.
> 
> I personally am not a title Nazi. There are other ways to prove a dog is worthy of breeding, and in the US, we are free to use any, all, or none of them. But just because the AKC allows any GSD to registered and bred, doesn't make it ethical to breed just any GSD--the breed we love will go down the toilet if we breed without any standards at all.


Actually I think the SV contributes to the decline of the breed but that's just my opinion and a different topic.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Actually I think the SV contributes to the decline of the breed but that's just my opinion and a different topic.


You have a problem with the SV requirements, or the organization? Maybe you could start another thread, I'd be interested as to why you think the SV contributes to the decline of the breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Actually those "unwritten" guidelines were drawn up the SV.
> Granted, this is America, and we do not have to adhere to SV standards. That's part of why the GSD is in such sorry shape in the US--anyone who works with the public's dogs, vets, trainers, groomers, boarding kennels, etc., knows that the average backyard-bred pet GSD is a hot mess.
> I personally am not a title Nazi. There are other ways to prove a dog is worthy of breeding, and in the US, we are free to use any, all, or none of them. But just because the AKC allows any GSD to registered and bred, doesn't make it ethical to breed just any GSD--the breed we love will go down the toilet if we breed without any standards at all.


The OP didn't ask for permission to breed their dog, why is that so hard to understand? They were looking for someone in their area they might be able to connect with in the hopes that they could learn more about the ins and outs of breeding. 

You (generally speaking) don't get to decide who breeds dogs, it's not your job. You only get to decide which breeders you want to support.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You have a problem with the SV requirements, or the organization? Maybe you could start another thread, I'd be interested as to why you think the SV contributes to the decline of the breed.



Look at the Fat Lady has begun to sing. A sticky in The Breed Standard forum and tell me if you would want a puppy out of those dogs. 

Sorry for being off topic.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Freestep said:


> I'm confused. What does that situation have to do with "I wanna stud out my dog" type threads?



Nothing I guess, just my way of complimenting the OP for having courage to post a question which received backlash - it's not an "I want to stud my dog thread", it's an "I'm looking for help thread". Calling this thread or equating it with the "I want to stud my dog threads", is like comparing apples and oranges.

I used that example and I'll use another, had I come on this board when I discovered Oz's hematoma, the thread could have gone nicely or it could have turned into a circus, as it was I did post on a different board after I had gone to the vet and had a course of treatment - after all these years I have figured out that about 30% of the responses you get on a thread here are people with real world experience and the rest are google searchers, people spouting rhetoric and people who believe no matter what you do, it's wrong. If I had posted I chose to treat with Arnica, I would have had the anti-homeopathic crowd telling me I was wrong, I would have the horror stories of blood spurting everywhere from hemotomas opening, how does your vet know it's a hemotoma and I might have three people who said, yeah we see where you are coming from, go for it. As it was, the ear healed in 2 weeks.

There is a definite cycle to threads, especially those that contain the words in the title like, breeding, homeopathic, alternative, Iams, aggressive. 

The OP asked for a breeding mentor, instead she got a bunch of questions on her dog's suitability, instead of, here's a breeder near you, contact them through their public website and let them assess the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> You have a problem with the SV requirements, or the organization? Maybe you could start another thread, I'd be interested as to why you think the SV contributes to the decline of the breed.


It seems like a lot of people here think that the SV isn't doing a great job of producing good specimens of health, conformation, and temperament. 

But I think that will pull the thread off course. Several of us suggested going with the breeder regardless of the origin of her dog. So it wasn't a Cliff's dog is automatically IN sort of thing. 

The OP, is looking for someone closer to home, and in that I suppose, whoever she trains with may be someone to gain advice and knowledge from, and maybe that individual can recommend a real, live, person that they know beyond keystrokes and pictures over the internet that might be a good person to help her out.

Another point to add is that the person that she uses as a mentor need not be a GSD person, it may be a Rottweiler person, or a Doberman person or an English Setter person. Yes, Rotties and Dobes are working dogs, and their breeders have a lot of things in common with us, though not the lines themselves. ESs and other breeds have different qualities that make them breedworthy, but you can learn a lot about the process regardless to the breed that is being bred. And Cliff is still out there for questions more specific to the dog he bred.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I do have to admit the "tone" definitely changed as soon as Cliff defended said dog. I know OP was asking for a mentor and what not...but its interesting how much the tone changes when someone like Cliff defends it (or its found out a "accepted" breeder bred said dog). It's also interesting that the dog has gotten "approval" from a TD and that makes things alright.

I think the reason that people responded the way they did, and didn't think the dog was titled/trained/ect was because generally when you belong to a club of that sort you don't need to go online and ask strangers for advice on finding a mentor or information on breeding a dog. I'm part of a club and I've learned much more about breeding and the ethics of it from my club than from this forum, and no offense to anyone on here...but I respect the opinion of those people much more than I do strangers on an internet forum.

One of the biggest pieces of advice we give prospective breeders/puppy buyers is to go to a club and see the lines of dogs there and pick one from there. Or see if any of them match your dogs lines (many times they do in the same area/SchH club). So why would anyone that's part of a club like that really ask for advice on hunting down a mentor? I feel like its safe to assume that type of person isn't in that type of club, or have any kind of background in the accepted rules of breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Even if they are not in a group or club, they still can have a very breed worthy dog....assumptions, titles, and certs don't make a dog breed worthy, the actual dog and the compatibility with the proposed mate makes a dog breed worthy. And I saw nothing in the original post that would have given me this information, if I didn't know the dog. Some of the most experienced and knowledgable breeders on this forum seldom if ever make assumptions or make snarky comments to these type posts. It's usually the people who have been in the breed 15 minutes to an hour, or even people that have never put two dogs together who jump in feet first.....figure that out rationally.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing, people keep bringing up the piece about "tone" changing when Cliff entered into the thread....well I submit the same would have happened if it had been Chris Wild, Lisa, Carmen, Sue, Lee, Andaka, Robin, and others. Why wouldn't it???? If I was making a comment about A specific ASL dog and Andaka or Jimmy Moses clarified something about the dog, I would be intelligent and respectful enough to change my tune because I realize they know more about this subject matter than I, and learning is more important to me than being right, so I will change my tone and my view too if I respect their knowledge base .....hey but that's just me....I'm from the old school!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> One other thing, people keep bringing up the piece about "tone" changing when Cliff entered into the thread....well I submit the same would have happened if it had been Chris Wild, Lisa, Carmen, Sue, Lee, Andaka, Robin, and others. Why wouldn't it???? If I was making a comment about A specific ASL dog and Andaka or Jimmy Moses clarified something about the dog, I would be intelligent and respectful enough to change my tune because I realize they know more about this subject matter than I, and learning is more important to me than being right, so I will change my tone and my view too if I respect their knowledge base .....hey but that's just me....I'm from the old school!


Oh for sure it would happen...but the point is that there is no reason to attack those that "attacked" the OP over the original first post. None of the information that later came to light was included and therefore, IMO, the questions and comments were quite warranted.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> Even if they are not in a group or club, they still can have a very breed worthy dog....assumptions, titles, and certs don't make a dog breed worthy, the actual dog and the compatibility with the proposed mate makes a dog breed worthy.


Cliff... how would you suggest someone new to the breed that wants a quality dog to find a puppy in these type of situations? Someone without knowledge of pedigrees and has no one to ask for help? Just a regular joe public dog owner looking for a healthy and happy puppy.

Say someone wants a puppy and knows someone that has a litter. This person has bred two great dogs like the one being discussed here with excellent pedigrees, but the dog isn't worked and has no titles. The breeder tells the potential buyer that the dogs are great, and they are, but how does the puppy buyer know they're getting a quality dog with a sound temperament? They can go out and meet the dogs, but the dog isn't worked, so they can't really see it in action. How much are they really getting out of a 30 minute meeting with a dog in it's home as far as temperamant correct for the breed goes? They just kind of have to go by what someone that is trying to sell them is telling them as true.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> go to a club and see the lines of dogs there and pick one from there. Or see if any of them match your dogs lines (many times they do in the same area/SchH club). So why would anyone that's part of a club like that really ask for advice on hunting down a mentor? I feel like its safe to assume that type of person isn't in that type of club, or have any kind of background in the accepted rules of breeding.


I still believe LissG should have contacted her breeder(whoever)as the breeder would be the best in helping choose a bitch to compliment her male. 
The way she worded her first post was odd, she set the tone for many of the responses.

There is at least one good facebook page that has really good breeders actively posting on it. They are helpful with their knowledge and share so much experience.
I'm surprised she didn't seek out that one, instead of a pet GSD board~ Kind of like asking the GSD community fb page to help her lol

As far as going to different clubs to find a mentor, or look at lines, it depends on the club.
I've gone to a couple pay to train groups and see a broad spectrum of 'breeders', not sure I'd want one or any of them as a mentor just because they know HOW to breed. 
Many clubs don't want people visiting just so they can study the different types of GSD's. 
Some are very welcoming, but not all want or need visitors coming and going, it can distract from the training going on.
We had a visitor recently that followed along while I was tracking, very vocal and loud when speaking. I know my dog needed to work thru that distraction, but it wasn't very respectful of the visitor, IMO.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I obviously know nothing about breeding as compared to you Cliff. 

As someone who has been in the market recently for a decent pup, and knowing how difficult it was to find a decent dog I have no patience for people that clearly know jack about their dog, never worked the dog, dont know its pedigree, wanting to start breeding. Most of the results seem to end up on pedigreedatabase advertised as extreme working drive superstars. 
As a buyer who doesnt have similar industry knowledge that you do this can lead to bad mistakes that cost money, time and emotional distress. I for one have no time for these folks and I dont mind when others rip them apart on here.

Im not saying this is the case in the OPs case but if she has the access to you and other people like you who know her dog, why is she wasting time on an internet forum?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Cliff... how would you suggest someone new to the breed that wants a quality dog to find a quality puppy in these type of situations? Someone without knowledge of pedigrees and has no one to ask for help? Just a regular joe public dog owner looking for a healthy and happy puppy.
> 
> Say someone wants a puppy and knows someone that has a litter. This person has bred two great dogs like the one being discussed here with excellent pedigrees, but the dog isn't worked and has no titles. The breeder tells the potential buyer that the dogs are great, and they are, but how does the puppy buyer know they're getting a quality dog with a sound temperament? They can go out and meet the dogs, but the dog isn't worked, so they can't really see it in action. How much are they really getting out of a 30 minute meeting with a dog in it's home as far as temperamant correct for the breed goes? They just kind of have to go by what someone that is trying to sell them is telling them as true.


This times a 100!! I think it's so funny when people say, "well those that are opinionated about people wanting to breed don't know anything about the breed. Or haven't put two dogs together...etc." No offense to those that share this opinion. But there are two pieces to the breeding puzzle, the buyer and the seller. In today's world, unfortunately, you can't just go by people's word....and more often than not you need *proof*. I have no problem if it isn't SchH...but *something*, LE, SAR, seeing eye, contracting, military, any of the plethora of other sports that test temperament, nerve, etc....As a buyer, my opinion matters, especially if it's part of the majority. Add to that knowledge/experience of shelters, over abundance of dogs, etc....and yes...I believe that person's opinion is very valid....even if it's *only* the opinion of a buyer and not a breeder. Why do you have to be a breeder to say what you'd want in a dog/puppy's parents? Or what you'd expect from a breeder, as a buyer? As a buyer, I expect there to be some solid proof of the parent's/lineage's solidity. 

Of course anyone can put any two dogs together, no laws or rules say you can't...but you ask people whether to breed a dog (not this thread, it was clear that the OP was looking for a mentor, to me), you are going to get opinions from buyers and sellers(breeders)....it bugs me how against the buyer's opinions some of you are....it's just an opinion and an explanation of what we'd want to see to have peace of mind that we were stacking the cards in our favor. It's like we aren't allowed to have an opinion about what to expect until we've had GSD's for 15 years...and any dogs in the mean time....well, good luck, because you don't know what you have anyway lol.

If OP or any of these people were to set up a website, listing their dogs, with no titles, no working jobs, no certificates, etc...and the only things they could say about the dog is "well, his breeder says he's breed worthy" most of you would be telling any buyers to run the other way! It's just silly to me that unless you've bred dogs or been around GSDs for 20+ years you can't say what you expect in a breeder, to someone considering becoming a breeder....that you're spending your money on....silliness....imho.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Danifan.....then the next time someone asks me for advice on a breeding....I will send them to you....fair enough!
@ others....it's not about giving a response...the OP was not upset about people giving a response....it was responses based on opinionated assumptions some of which the people knew Jack about. It was the " TONE" assumed by some repeatedly. I'm waiting for an answer to why the breeders with demonstrated knowledge on breeding and dogs seldom take the strident approach??? That seems a bigger "Red" flag in this argument than the ones I hear. Here's what I am seeing, people want to protect the breed from BYB, or people who haven't experience breeding, or people who haven't done all the due diligences( in their opinion), so they must respond stridently ....I guess for the good of the breed:crazy:.......my point; people should view the quality and source of the opinions as just as important ....for the good of the breed also.....Ouch! Some of you don't like that because it assumes certain things about quality of your opinions....well welcome to how OP feels. 
Their is nothing wrong with responses, that isn't the issue....making negative assumptions like Craigslist references without inquiring or knowing is inexcusable and Not the fault of the OP. This has been going on on this board for a long time, it has decreased some because people have been called out on it, but it's still reoccurring. 
Also, it has been my experience that the vast majority of breeders are not mentors, nor should be. Sorry, folks it sounds romantic, but it isn't real. The type of information she is looking for is more likely found in active people in the breed who are staying up on current dogs and lines. That can be very difficult to find these days, because often unless you are in a club, then it's difficult to connect enough to mentor somebody. In NJ almost all the sport clubs are filled or run by world type competitors who are looking for like minded members if they even accept one. The OP did NOT ask for a breed assessment of her dog...but usually when people can't answer the initial question in these type posts because of the compulsion to posts they zero in on the dog or the person's bona fides......answer the post or refer them to somebody who can....what's wrong with that?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last point,...lol, I am not saying only experts should respond to questions of breeding, if you are reading that I probably stepped on your toes, or you have reading comprehension problems...I am saying that the passion and thus actions for the good of the breed, should apply to posters as well as perspective breeders. If we want well informed breeders, should we not want well informed posters? Things need to be sound on both ends of the equation for things to be balanced. Sometimes, when people ask me info about breeding, dogs, etc, I send back and say I don't have enough info to give an opinion....I need this or that....if just this occurred in these threads we would see much less of these kind of train wrecks in my opinion. Plus it allows the compulsive people who have to post on everything, do so without offending anyone....win-win!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> The OP did NOT ask for a breed assessment of her dog...but usually when people can't answer the initial question in these type posts because of the compulsion to posts they zero in on the dog or the person's bona fides......answer the post or refer them to somebody who can....what's wrong with that?


I think this was my point all along. That most people did not answer the question. 

I think the tone change would have happened with any if the aforementioned breeders. It was not Cliff specific. I just don't get why we needed any of this. Why not just answer the dang question if you are able?




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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Ok.....All I asked for was a reference to a mentor who is closer to me. It should NOT matter if I post details on the dog like certs/titles/pedigree/traits. To you it might matter, but the truth is anyone online can make it up and slap those abbreviations at the end of their dogs name. I could've thrown that all in there just for your approval, and this whole thread would've been different. But I'm being honest. So why is it such a big deal? The dog could have the best certs/titles/pedigree and still NOT be a good candidate to breed. What if my dog had perfect hips and every title known to man, but was a total psycho and overly aggressive and a basket case? Does that still make him a better candidate then a "craigslist dog" (the kind most ASSUMED I had)??? The fact that I didn't post any of the specifics shouldn't matter because I didn't ask you if my dog was worthy of being bred. You can not determine that online. I don't want to have a mentor through the internet, as some have suggested emails. How can I get a feel if the person is real or not? How can they properly evaluate my dog? Anyone can make up anything online and come off as an expert, particularly to someone like me with no experience/knowledge in this area. 
No one really answered the question, you all just argued over wether I was credible or not, and if my dog was good enough. Fact is, that is not for you to decide. This whole thread is just 10 pages of people arguing over assumptions, guidelines, shenanigans, and people saying "did you really just ask that???"....EVEN THOUGH the original post SAYS CLEARLY I'd like a mentor who is closer to me and that I WAS responsible enough to decline offers of stud service. This was not an ad, this was not me asking for someones bitch to pop out puppies. A bunch of you understood that and sent me messages, so I know I wasn't speaking German.
Yes the tone did change some when you all found out my dog does come from a good breeder and has good lines and Cliff happens to know about what my dog is capable of since we are in the same club....but like I said, that shouldn't matter. I asked for a mentor to guide me through titles/certs, not for you all to judge and make up your mind. You've never met me or my dog, so you can't evaluate if he's worthy.
Not that it should matter, but since some keep asking along the lines of "if you're really in a club, why not just ask them"....but I have put feelers out in my club, but what's wrong with a second opinion? I clearly don't know anything in this area so why just take one person's word for it? Why not get another opinion or 2 or 3 to fully educate myself and make an informed decision? Isn't THAT the responsible thing to do? :crazy:


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Hi, I apologize for my snarky remark, I posted the first thing that crossed my mind rather than actually offering a considered reply. Which, I have no business doing either since I know less than nothing about your question.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

On the self-education front, a good book that was recommended to me by several knowledgeable breeders, and which I'm presently plowing through, is Carmelo Battaglia's Breeding Better Dogs.

It's out of print, and used copies on Amazon can get pretty pricey (mine was almost $40), but it's dense and pretty in-depth without being inaccessible and although I haven't finished it yet, I definitely can see why it came so highly recommended.

Books are no substitutes for mentors or firsthand experience, of course. But they can help you figure out who actually does know enough to be worthy of your trust, and they can give you a basic foundation in the subject.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LissG said:


> I clearly don't know anything in this area so why just take one person's word for it? Why not get another opinion or 2 or 3 to fully educate myself and make an informed decision? Isn't THAT the responsible thing to do? :crazy:


I don't think asking for help on this board is the responsible thing to do when it comes to breeding. There are a handful of breeders on here, and a whole lot of posters. Going to your dogs breeder for advice on who may be able to mentor you is the most responsible thing you could have done. It would have saved you from having to defend yourself. Instead of asking for a breeder mentor, maybe ask a well known stud dog's owner for some information on how to best ready your male for his future. Stud owners aren't hard to find and many of them may be of help.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I haven't read all the post...but to me this all seems silly-and I agree with Jane. Also I just think there is more involved when you are breeding the female-the owner of the female has to whelp the litter and place the puppies-usually. The owner of the stud dog just has to decide whether they want to breed to the female -and if they don't there is no issue and apparently there are a few dogs that you have already decided that you don't want to breed to-I am not involved with schutzhund don't train with GSDs even-but if I wanted to breed -there are people I would know to contact-


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LissG said:


> Does that still make him a better candidate then a "craigslist dog" (the kind most ASSUMED I had)???


Who assumed that? :thinking: I've read every single post on this thread and did not see a single person making that assumption, but maybe I'm just dim and missed it, lol. 

As I said before, questions aren't assumptions, they're just questions. People can provide as much or as little detail in their posts as they like, but they have to be prepared for people to ask questions without getting all bent out of shape if they leave out stuff that might be pertinent to the situation.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

@cliff....No need for such a flippant remark...I just don't understand why all the opinions can't be given and understood where they are coming from....most are buyers, some sellers(breeders), and some fringe-craziness. I just think it's silly that unless you are a breeder (and a well-known one at that), and respond in what other's deem as a "polite" way, your opinion is slashed, of lesser quality, and this is all pointed out followed by cute little emoticons lol! Your opinion is extremely valid and of high quality. I just happen to think there is nothing wrong with someone asking for proof of some kind of validity of temperament/soundness/lineage and of course health testing....after that advice has been given, and possibly explained, well then I absolutely agree that the quality of most opinions after that depends on the experience behind the poster. 

But I think anyone can suggest those things....breeder...buyer...pet owner...shelter worker...farmer...lol, it doesn't take whelping 25 litters and training 102 military dogs to be able to suggest those avenues be taken first to prove the dog.....me personally, as a buyer, that isn't enough, but it's a starting point.....after those things are "proven" through whatever avenues, then I ask people like you, with experience, that can "look" at a dog's soundness, and give their opinion on it. No toe-stepping here, I'm a little tougher than that . Just don't understand the thought behind who you need to be to suggest testing/titling/certifying and finding a mentor.

Now, if I was sitting here watching a video of a dog doing bitework and spouting off my opinion on it's soundness, temperament, etc....well of course that would be of absolute lower quality than say you, or myco, or lies, or anyone with experience in bitework lol....I just don't see how suggesting getting the dog into some arena to prove it's soundness is something that should be left to fellow breeders. That's all. I'm not defending the fringe-craigslist assumptions....just people that are saying what they'd look for in a potential breeder. I am learning a lot by being here, and even in my short time here am learning to curtail my opinions, leave most training advice to people with more experience, and check my newbie-passion at the door....just don't think it's a huge deal who is saying, hip/elbow, medical screening, proving dog's soundness, etc....I think it's something that pretty much anyone can say. 

But now that I've re-read everything, maybe you and Andy are referring more to the negative "don't breed your dog" statements and the assumptions that are being made....

@OP....sorry you are getting such a negative response...it was clear to me that you were simply asking for a mentor(which is so much different than the types of threads that usually get this response). I didn't pipe up because all I could say is find a club, ask your local LE K9 trainer, or maybe your breeder. Those might be some good avenues to look down....maybe nothing there, but maybe something. Good luck! I think it's great to see someone who wants to become a breeder, wants to learn a lot along the way, and isn't doing it flippantly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> Not a working-line person, and too far away anyway, but a good place to start might be with your breeder.


Liss, and anyone else who missed it, this was the very first post after the original post, post #2.

I actually thought I was answering the question. I must have missed the part in post #1 that your breeder was too far in distance as a mentor. 

So I am a little offended that you said no one answered your question. 

And, I think others had the same advice. And when I did read later on that you felt Cliff was too far, I gave other advice about finding a mentor, where your train, or of a different breed, etc. 

I am sorry that there was some shtuff on this thread, but really, you've been around here long enough to expect that. Really. 

I think I am done. I try not to be judgemental in these kinds of threads, and answer the questions regardless to how long someone has been around here, what type of info they give in their posts, etc., but no matter what, all they choose to see is the negative. It is really kind of depressing. Time for a break.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

LissG said:


> Ok.....All I asked for was a reference to a mentor who is closer to me. It should NOT matter if I post details on the dog like certs/titles/pedigree/traits.


Maybe it *shouldn't* matter, but on this forum, it does. Not saying it's right, but it's the way this forum always goes--you post with a subject line like "lookin to breed my dog" and you're bound to get a lot of replies, and not all of them are going to be positive or helpful. I'm really sorry and I don't mean to pick on you, but you've been here long enough that you should have known what to expect when posting that subject line! Had your subject line been "lookin for a mentor", I bet it would have gone very differently.



> No one really answered the question, you all just argued over wether I was credible or not, and if my dog was good enough. Fact is, that is not for you to decide. This whole thread is just 10 pages of people arguing over assumptions, guidelines, shenanigans, and people saying "did you really just ask that???"....


Welcome to the forum! That's the way EVERY breeding thread goes. Again, I hate to harp on this point, but I don't know why you expected anything different?



onyx'girl said:


> I don't think asking for help on this board is the responsible thing to do when it comes to breeding. There are a handful of breeders on here, and a whole lot of posters. Going to your dogs breeder for advice on who may be able to mentor you is the most responsible thing you could have done. It would have saved you from having to defend yourself.


Yep. You have to remember that this forum has a few experts and a LOT of armchair experts. There are certain questions I would never ask on this forum--I'd call, email or PM someone whose opinion I trust. I know you are simply looking for a mentor, but you'd be extremely lucky to find one by going through this forum. I understand your dilemma, when I was first looking for GSD and SchH people to help me, I didn't know who to talk to or how to go about learning. I was lucky enough to meet some people through the SchH club and got to develop a good relationship with someone I consider a mentor. But it took years and a lot of face time at the club, and letting people get to know me before asking too many questions.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

I HAVE been here for a long time, and ya know what? I see tons of threads on here and I don't comment on them. Why? Because if I don't have anything positive to contribute or I am unable to help them, why bother?


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Selzer-I do appreciate your response I did read it, it wasn't over looked  
Merceil-I'm looking up that book as we speak  thanks for the recommendation!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well, if this is the way "this" board is, some of you shouldn't be upset at the way "some" breeders are. Reminds me of the media....they want to pass judgement on everything they see or hear, but never want to be held accountable for their shortcomings. 
Trust me threads like this is a major reason why many forum members with wealth of knowledge post so little....I'm sure that's good for the breed.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am confused -what would stop people with lots of knowledge from posting??-because others are judgemental-that doesn't make sense to me


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well maybe they are posting and I keep missing their posts....is that better?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Liss, I never post on breeding threads because I've never bred a dog and I have no clue what goes into the selection of mating GSDs. But I'm making an exception here, lol. 

In my short time on this site, I've only seen a few members get away with asking about breeding their own person dogs. These members post alot, and everyone knows they work with many many GSDs. Even they get the inquisition, although not to the extent that someone else would. It is what it is. I'm actually surprised that the topic is even allowed on this forum, because really when you think about it, it's a violation of the rules. Maybe this topic should be banned? I'm only half joking...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Well, if this is the way "this" board is, some of you shouldn't be upset at the way "some" breeders are. Reminds me of the media....they want to pass judgement on everything they see or hear, but never want to be held accountable for their shortcomings.


Look, because I'm acknowledging that something is a certain way, doesn't mean I'm saying it's right or wrong. I notice trends and patterns over time.

As for "being accountable", I'm not sure what you mean by that. I can only control what I say, I can't do it for others, nor would I want to.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> *I don't think asking for help on this board is the responsible thing to do when it comes to breeding.* There are a handful of breeders on here, and a whole lot of posters. Going to your dogs breeder for advice on who may be able to mentor you is the most responsible thing you could have done. It would have saved you from having to defend yourself. Instead of asking for a breeder mentor, maybe ask a well known stud dog's owner for some information on how to best ready your male for his future. Stud owners aren't hard to find and many of them may be of help.


WHAT!? We have an ENTIRE SECTION for breeding and questions.

I personally don't think ANY question is a WRONG question. I don't know where or who her breeder is...mine is a long distance away. 
None of that matters.

(I also didn't know we had rules about what we should or shouldn't ask about in the breeding section.)

I didn't have a problem understanding her initial post - that she was looking for a mentor. 
Actually, I have a lot of respect for both current and prospective breeders WANTING TO LEARN/ know about "both sides of the coin", so to speak.
IMO, it benefits us all.

No matter what the Title of the thread is, once you get into it and read, you know what's being asked. 
If this thread had gone in a different direction, I may have actually learned something myself. 

Usually, If I have anything to add that will help, I'll post. 
Otherwise, I'll go on. 

Unfortunately in this case, I can't help.
I do hope she finds someone that will be able to answer her question(s) and or willing to help.

JMHO  Kat


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I missed where I said anything about right and wrong....was only making an analogy.....lets move on....I think everyone understands each other.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

KatsMuse said:


> *Originally Posted by onyx'girl*
> I don't think asking for help on this board is the responsible thing to do when it comes to breeding. There are a handful of breeders on here, and a whole lot of posters. Going to your dogs breeder for advice on who may be able to mentor you is the most responsible thing you could have done. It would have saved you from having to defend yourself. Instead of asking for a breeder mentor, maybe ask a well known stud dog's owner for some information on how to best ready your male for his future. Stud owners aren't hard to find and many of them may be of help.
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ...


Since you quoted my post but failed to bold the next sentence which was the reason for my first sentence, I obviously didn't make myself clear. 
There are many better places to find a mentor to stud out her dog than asking here.... because she opened herself up to having to defend herself. If she never posted the thread and contacted her breeder for advice on where to begin(who I read in another thread is only 40 miles away) she would have been better off. 
Asking questions is great, I don't know if asking for a mentor and naming names is something that should be done on a public forum. What if everyone started naming breeders in her area to mentor her, would that have been a better outcome to her plea?


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Maybe I did ask my breeder, but like I keep repeating, I don't just take one person's word. I'd like multiple opinions/suggestions. Get as much knowledge as possible to make the most informed decision. Most people have a situation in life (any situation-could be a relationship issue) usually they ask multiple people/friends to get their thoughts/opinions before making a decision. Which is what I'm trying to do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So... as Dr Phil says "how's that workin' for ya?"
I wish you the best, hopefully people pm'd you some names of stud owners/breeders to contact for more opinions/suggestions.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

LissG said:


> Maybe I did ask my breeder, but like I keep repeating, I don't just take one person's word. I'd like multiple opinions/suggestions. Get as much knowledge as possible to make the most informed decision. Most people have a situation in life (any situation-could be a relationship issue) usually they ask multiple people/friends to get their thoughts/opinions before making a decision. Which is what I'm trying to do.


That's actually smart. But like Cliff said, "not all opinions are equal". Although I find that quote hilarious, I like it!  

Simply to avoid frustration and aggravation on your part, I wouldn't ask this particular forum breeding questions. You should be talking personally to people whose judgment you trust. But there we are back to the problem--you're trying to FIND someone you can trust. Where the heck do you start? Outside the training field, there's a few Facebook groups with a more breeder-centric bent, so if Cliff can't help you, you might be able join one of these groups to get some contacts closer to you.

Oh, and just a suggestion... as you do acquire contacts and inquire about possible mentorships, do not start your correspondence with "lookin to breed my dog".  Tell them you are new to all this, but you have a promising young male in training and you want to know what steps are needed to prove him breedworthy. You'll still get differing opinions on that, and someone will always grill you. But don't take offense. If you really want to learn, keep listening. It will quickly become apparent to everyone that you're not just some BYB-wannabe, and that you're serious about doing things the right way, and then I bet that help will be more forthcoming.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Although I said something similar in a PM, this thread may be read by people other than the OP. 

I think it is not a bad idea to use various people as your go to contacts for the various aspects of breeding. 

You might be able to discuss the bloodlines with Cliff or someone else.

You might be able to find someone from your training club to discuss what you need to look for in a bitch to complement your dog. 

You might be able to find someone who raises Rottys or Retrievers to give you a lot of great advice in the area of whelping the litter.

And you might find someone in your breed club to help you decide what you want to screen your dog for and what you will require of the bitch. 

There are threads in the general breeding section with a lot of good information about whelping and raising a litter of puppies. Read through some of those threads and pay attention to the advice given by various posters and then choose one or two of the posters, and PM specific questions. 

I think in all, the people who have been there, done that, are pretty willing to help where they feel comfortable in their knowledge.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Lisa: Unfortunately I don't know of any good breeders in your area that would act as a mentor. If Cliff said you have a good dog, I am sure you do, however, a lot of breeders that take the time to title their female, most likely will not chose a stud that has not been titled. A breeder friend is going thru that struggle at the moment. She works an incredible gsd male whose owner has no desire to title, however, she said he is one of the best gsd's she have ever seen. Another breeder at our club would love to use him in his program. Health testing has been done, but he struggles with "non title" part. My suggestion would be to continue training your dog and if he is that good, someone may be interested in him and decide that his pedigree and attributes are what they need in their breeding program. In exchange they maybe willing to mentor you at the same time. Hopefully if he is as good as you say, you decide to Title him so that more breeders would be willing to consider using him.

Cheryl


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