# Whats the BIG Deal??



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok, so went to our new first training class today involving just the owners and trainers and nutrition was brought up. The question was asked how many are free feeding. Only myself and one other raised our hands. The trainer went on to say that we have a BIG problem and this is the 50% of the cause of the issues or behavioral problems with our dogs, and that we needed to get on regular feedings ASAP. Though I didn't argue, I completely disagree. Now I've read a lot of the threads regarding free freeding and talked to a friend about it who also advised against it. But until this class, the reasons I was given is because you dont want your dog to overeat and you need to know how much she is eating. 

Once, in the morning, she is given about half a can of wet food mixed with the dry which she eats immediately and equals about 2 cups of food. I then put down about 3 cups of the dry (Wellness for LBP) and it usually lasts about a day and a half. I also incorporate one or two raw bones during the day. I know exactly how much she is eating. She is 5 months and about 40lbs. My vet says her weight is perfect and she looks great. I really have no serious behavior issues with her inside the home, except jumping on the counters, which we are working on.

Our issues are outside the home dealing with fear aggression towards other dogs, and I highly doubt that this is caused by her being able to eat dry kibble whenever she feels like it. She didn't start socializing until 15 wks, so we are simply behind and I feel the fear aggression is the result. The trainer also went on to say that we would have a more difficult time training with treats because our dogs wouldn't be as anxious for the treats because they were never really hungry. This has never been a problem for us either. 

So I guess my question is, why is it such a big deal if I allow her to eat the dry kibble when she's hungry if I know exactly how much she's getting and how often?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think what the trainer was refering to was more along the thinking that when dogs are fed at certain times only, they come to see that resources, like food, are controled by you, the pack leader. It is a subtle way to re-inforce your "alphaness". I'm not a fan of freefeeding (wouldn't work with raw, anyways), but it isn't up to me to tell anyone how to raise their dog, and it isn't up to the trainer either. 

Now, if you were having rank issues with Kaiya (whick I know you don't), then bringing in a lot more controls into what she can and cannot do would make more sense - like not allowed on the furniture, not allowed through doors ahead of you, not allowed any food unless you personally give it to her. But these measures are not always neccessary, and, for example, my dogs are allowed on the furniture, they are allowed through the door before me, and they eat what I give them because free-feeding would not work in a two-dog three-cat household. But the pack is secure, and it takes only one word from me to get the dogs off the furniture, to get them to stop at the door and wait for a release before they go out, and to wait until I tell them that they can eat. 

I think it is jumping to conclusions that your trainer immediately decided that free-feeding will cause big behavioural issues . . . really it is a case-by-case scenario, and with a pup, and no issues so far, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks, Debbie. You always give great feedback. I do make her sit and stay before I give her the canned food or a raw bone, but I am more like you in that I don't use NILF in every situation unless needed. I am definitely the Alpha in my house with both the dogs and the humans and I believe this is something she caught on to fairly quickly, as I have had very little problems establishing dominance. As a long time "small breed" owner, it is taking some time to get used to her fast growing size, but she is by far one of the easiest pups I've ever had to raise temperament and intelligence wise.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Don't know about your instructors reasons to dislike free feeding, but I also do NOT like to leave food out.

I think it helps bond my dogs even more to me to have the GREAT EXCITEMENT of mealtimes, twice aday. And that they are hungry for that meal when it goes down.

I KNOW that my dogs eating habits are a vital clue to their general health. Having 2 times a day to check in on that and know how they are doing is information that I wouldn't have with food left out. With both my current dogs, if they don't immediately eat all their food when I put it down (or even worse, don't show up for the meal) there is something wrong.

One of the first things my vets ask about my dogs is how much they eat, when, and if they are sick.... when was their last meal. I would know that, absolutely and 100% so would be able to give REAL information to help with the treatment and diagnosis.

I see NO benefits to free feeding. Zero (except it would be easier for me to just pile food in a bowl and restock if I noticed it was empty).

I see many benefits for the health and well-being of my dogs. So I feed my dogs twice a day, they eat it all right away. And I have the information I need about their health and welfare until the next meal.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with Lucia on this one, in your case, I don't really see a problem with it since YOU aren't having problems with it.

It could become a problem (or maybe that's not the right word ) IF you decide to get another dog at some point..

I don't free feed, only because I have 3 dogs, and they are all food hogs, so free feeding wouldn't work here at all (in fact the food wouldn't last LOL)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tihannah said:


> Thanks, Debbie.


That was Lucia!  But I agree with everything she said.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That was Lucia!  But I agree with everything she said.


I actually thought it was quite the compliment to be confused with you!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I actually thought it was quite the compliment to be confused with you!


LOL! SRY! Debbie is always one of the first to answer my posts and both names start with "CAS"? lol. As soon as you said that I scrolled back up and was like, DUH! I'm getting old! So correction! You both always give great feedback! lol


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm with Lucia on this one, in your case, I don't really see a problem with it since YOU aren't having problems with it.
> 
> It could become a problem (or maybe that's not the right word ) IF you decide to get another dog at some point..
> 
> I don't free feed, only because I have 3 dogs, and they are all food hogs, so free feeding wouldn't work here at all (in fact the food wouldn't last LOL)


Well, that IS the other thing I was called out on. I do have 2 other dogs. My yorkie and chi. And...try not to hit me...they all eat out of the same bowl with the dry. With the canned/dry mix, I separate them into different rooms and give separate bowls. The little ones, even though I have offered, have no interest in the raw bones whatsoever. I believe my yorkie gave me a disgusted look the first time I gave her a raw bone, and my chi looked at me like "What the heck am I supposed to do with that?" lol. But as far as the dry, they eat when they want, and there's never any squabbling about it. My yorkie (7 yrs) is the top dog. And if she happens to be eating, the others give their space. Kaiya is next. And the chi is a one kibble at a time dog~ meaning she picks one kibble, prances into another room, and then chews up the one kibble. Takes about 5 or 6 trips and then her meal is done. All had a recent vet trip last week, and all are healthy, and at good weights.

On another note though, and something else the trainer mentioned concerning nutrition. Out of the 20 something people in the class, only 2 of us were feeding quality food~the rest were feeding Iams, Science Diet, Purina Pro Plan, and one even said Gravy Train! lol. The trainer okayed the first 2, but nixed the last two. Then went on to say that we should avoid giving our dogs "High Protein" foods? I was thinking, wouldn't that eliminate most of the high quality foods? She said that feeding our dogs lots of protein contributed our puppies to hyper activity. I feed Wellness LBP and some raw, and its top ingredients are all meats. Kaiya isn't hyperactive act all outside of normal puppy behavior. Am I missing something in this message?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> I actually thought it was quite the compliment to be confused with you!


Back at ya babe! :rofl:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't free feed, just because I like to know how much they are eating. plus, Freya would eat 40lbs of food in a day I think! She was free fed before we got her, sharing a bowl with another dog. As a result, she inhales food because she thinks that someone else might eat it first. The woman just took out a coffee can full of food whenever she noticed that the bowl was empty. 

It took a bit of work to figure out how much she needed to eat to keep her weight good. Esp since we got her on a better quality of food lol

One of the first signs of a sick dog is lack of appetite. could be a sore tooth, could be an upset tummy, could be just plain feeling icky, but if I'm not monitoring exactly how much they are eating, I wouldn't know


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> One of the first signs of a sick dog is lack of appetite. could be a sore tooth, could be an upset tummy, could be just plain feeling icky, but if I'm not monitoring exactly how much they are eating, I wouldn't know


That's my feeling also.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Food is such a high value resource, I just can't bear to waste the "meaning" of it in my relationship with them. I try to use everything to my advantage with them and food is one of my great tools. I don't think there is something wrong with free feeding particularly, just can't imagine feeling inclined to do it.

My dog's meals are simply one of their greatest pleasures in life and I am happy to create that experience for them by not having food always available. It's like the best meal you ever ate was when you had worked up a big appetite. It enhances their experience this way. Same as with toys, affection, play, etc. If these things are freely available the dog does not have as "rich" an enjoyment of them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If that trainer thinks Science Diet is a good food then she needs to do some more research. The first ingredient in most of their food is "chicken by-product meal". That's the head, feet, feathers ground up and dehydrated. Iams is not any better.

As far as free feeding...I had problems keeping my dogs weight where it should be. That's why we stopped free feeding and I never gave it another thought past that so this thread is really interesting!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My lot are given their food in their crates, they inhale it, and then the go outside for the day. When I bring them in, they get their food again, they inhale it and then they are in for the night. I know immediately if someone is sick. They are crated when they eat because I do not want to start problems. Sometimes I have them sit and wait, sometimes not. 

This is true of all my dogs except for the puppy. She has her half of the room and her doggy door to her kennel. She has a large bowl of food and a bucket of water. I put two cups of food in her dish. At the next meal, I look to see whether she ate it all. If she has, easy, put another two cups in. If not, I have to decide how much if any to give her. This is as close to free feeding as I get.

I know that if I picked up her dish, she would be more likely to eat when the opportunity arose. I do not see it as a major problem though.

In one or two of my classes, the trainer looked around at the dogs and said they all looked good weight wise, she would not have to do the over-feeding conversation. 

I think we go to training classes for teaching the dog how to sit, down, and heel with or without distraction, not to consider food choices. For one thing, a food that is good for Yorkies may not be the best choice for sheps. 

It sounds like she is trying to connect food to behavior and training. I think that if you are having a behavior problem, then looking at food, and how it is distributed.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Samba said:


> Food is such a high value resource, I just can't bear to waste the "meaning" of it in my relationship with them. I try to use everything to my advantage with them and food is one of my great tools. I don't think there is something wrong with free feeding particularly, just can't imagine feeling inclined to do it.
> 
> My dog's meals are simply one of their greatest pleasures in life and I am happy to create that experience for them by not having food always available. It's like the best meal you ever ate was when you had worked up a big appetite. It enhances their experience this way. Same as with toys, affection, play, etc. If these things are freely available the dog does not have as "rich" an enjoyment of them.


I completely understand this, but think I am meeting this pleasure somewhere in the middle. Meaning, I only free feed the dry food. When the canned or raw food comes out, there is the excitement and eagerness. But I also feel like because there is always some form of food there for them, they feel no need to inhale their food or wolf it down. There is no aggression or fighting between the dogs over food either. And I have all females, all intact. Maybe its because they're females? I don't know. But if one is eating from the bowl, and another approaches, she knows she can just come back later to get what she wants. Of course, it helps that my other 2 dogs are 4 and 7 lbs... If I had another GSD or similar sized dog, I'm positive I would be on a feeding schedule.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Those are good points and it all depends on one's desires and goals really.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

my only worry would be that you wouldn't notice if someone stopped eating. esp the little guys! of course, I don't feed canned, only a bit mixed in (think tablespoon) on rare occasions. even if they were eating normal on the canned, wouldn't mean there wasn't a tooth or other problem that kept them from eating the kibble.

though, most of the people that I know with little dogs (esp those under 4 lbs) free feed. that is because the dogs often have trouble regulating their blood sugar unless they eat multiple times a day. Probably because their tiny tummies only hold like 4 pieces of kibble.

As for the gulping down food, that entirely depends on the dog. Rayden has never inhaled his food. Freya is like a vacuum, then she will check to see if Rayden is done because she wants his leftovers. I've started using blocks that she has to pick around to slow her down. Dh said he would't be surprised if she just ate those too...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

As people have pretty well stated, I think the two points here are - you are wasting a resource if you free feed and especially with more than one dog you really don't know what is happening if you free feed.

- If food is always available, the dog(s) begin to take it for granted and you loose a drive that you could use (as in for training).

- The "don't know who's eating what when" is pretty self explanatory.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my last Shep had food out all of the time starting
when he was 8 weeks old. i fed him can food mixed with
goodies. after feeding him his wet food and i left a bowl
of kibble out for him. he never over ate and i didn't have any issues
with him, health or social.


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