# Ecollars help



## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

I just bought e collars for max to fix his minor inside home behavior. I introduced him with #2 stimulation and it seems like he got an idea that when i give him a command he better do it or he'll get shocked. i have no experience with e collars and i am just affraid that using this will make Max scare of things that i dont want him to do. any advise on how to use this device and your experience will really appreciate. i dont want to use this device this everyday because i love max to death and i feel like i am actually huring him or his feeling everytime i shock him. please help!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm going to move this thread to the training section


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi there. I just started ecollar per my trainer's suggestion. Watching Michael Ellis videos on ecollar (3 part series online) and also reviewing the recall video by Michael Ellis where there's a brief section on ecollar helped me. You can do a search for it or let me know if you want me to look up the links. 

I use mine everyday on our walks. My dog's feelings are not hurt because of it. She is still her happy-bouncy-walking-with-a-song-in-her-heart self on the walks and gets that the ecollar stims are just a signal for her to do something and better do it because I will follow up even at a distance. It also helped me tremendously with timing issues when working long distance. Today during our off leash walk, after reinforcing her long distance behaviors multiple times (mainly "leave it" and don't-you-dare-go-chase-that-invisible-thing) with ecollar I got the best ever "front" where it was fast and furious with a very tight finish. I didn't stim her to get the front, but just saying, she wasn't depressed by the ecollar and can be amped up for training still. If used right, the dog won't see it as a torture tool, just as an extension of your magical control over the dog. =) 

I will say, the first introduction to my dog where I used the pager, it depressed her for hours. She refused treats the first time ever in her life. After that, she went back to normal and turns out to have quite a bit of tolerance for the stims.


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

Bear L said:


> Hi there. I just started ecollar per my trainer's suggestion. Watching Michael Ellis videos on ecollar (3 part series online) and also reviewing the recall video by Michael Ellis where there's a brief section on ecollar helped me. You can do a search for it or let me know if you want me to look up the links.
> 
> I use mine everyday on our walks. My dog's feelings are not hurt because of it. She is still her happy-bouncy-walking-with-a-song-in-her-heart self on the walks and gets that the ecollar stims are just a signal for her to do something and better do it because I will follow up even at a distance. It also helped me tremendously with timing issues when working long distance. Today during our off leash walk, after reinforcing her long distance behaviors multiple times (mainly "leave it" and don't-you-dare-go-chase-that-invisible-thing) with ecollar I got the best ever "front" where it was fast and furious with a very tight finish. I didn't stim her to get the front, but just saying, she wasn't depressed by the ecollar and can be amped up for training still. If used right, the dog won't see it as a torture tool, just as an extension of your magical control over the dog. =)
> 
> I will say, the first introduction to my dog where I used the pager, it depressed her for hours. She refused treats the first time ever in her life. After that, she went back to normal and turns out to have quite a bit of tolerance for the stims.


I only found first chapter of that video. can you find me a link for other two. Also, how did you introduce your dog to it. can you tell me more about your expereince.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Please thoroughly review how to use an e-collar before you start going around zapping your dog. They are a great tool when used correctly (which you most certainly are not) and can cause a LOT of issues when used poorly.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Here's the link to the 3 chapters. It's $25 per chapter. Leerburg On Demand | Michael Ellis Remote Collar Theory

I followed the video's ecollar progression - leash pressure, command with leash pressure, command then leash pressure with ecollar, ecollar then command and with leash pressure if necessary, then finally just command and ecollar (command/ecollar order at this stage depends on what I'm working on and what communicates to the dog best - used as a correction or to reinforce immediate compliance on first command). Keep in mind that the main reason I need ecollar is for off leash control - mainly recalls, leave it, emergency downs and waits. I started with the recall on ecollar and once she gets what the ecollar is for, I start to use it for other commands. The video explains the conditioning process and how to set it at the right level. 

If the dog is close by, like inside a house, I rarely use ecollar because I can get her attention easily other ways. What is the minor inside problem you have? Perhaps people on the forum can suggest alternatives to ecollar, especially if minor.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GSDElsa said:


> Please thoroughly review how to use an e-collar before you start going around zapping your dog. They are a great tool when used correctly (which you most certainly are not) and can cause a LOT of issues when used poorly.


This.


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

Bear L said:


> Here's the link to the 3 chapters. It's $25 per chapter. Leerburg On Demand | Michael Ellis Remote Collar Theory
> 
> I followed the video's ecollar progression - leash pressure, command with leash pressure, command then leash pressure with ecollar, ecollar then command and with leash pressure if necessary, then finally just command and ecollar (command/ecollar order at this stage depends on what I'm working on and what communicates to the dog best - used as a correction or to reinforce immediate compliance on first command). Keep in mind that the main reason I need ecollar is for off leash control - mainly recalls, leave it, emergency downs and waits. I started with the recall on ecollar and once she gets what the ecollar is for, I start to use it for other commands. The video explains the conditioning process and how to set it at the right level.
> 
> If the dog is close by, like inside a house, I rarely use ecollar because I can get her attention easily other ways. What is the minor inside problem you have? Perhaps people on the forum can suggest alternatives to ecollar, especially if minor.


some of the problem inside house includes running like crazy back and forth i mean literally for at least 2-3 minutes fast continuously, grab socks and towels in mouth and run, unexpectly start nipping me, start following me wherever i go (doesnt listen to stay command), etc.

I kept him inside with ecollar today for couple hours and i felt like i was in heaven, he just sat there and chewed on his antler and then fall a sleep. i was surprise to watch Tv without getting up 20 times. Let me clear that I didnt used any shock on him i just pressed negative tone button and he behaved well thinkinh that shock is coming if ii dont behave well. I hope this work without me giving him shocks (that's the last thing i want to do, because everytime i shock him i felt guilty for doing that). thanks for your help.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread disturbs me. You have a puppy!!! Why are you shocking him to stop him from being a puppy? Don't you have a crate? That is where I'd put my pup if I needed a couple hours to chill. But I surely wouldn't use an e-collar. 
By the way, I use an e-collar and it took a few months of foundation training before I actually used it in exercises. 

Please re-read this as it is very important if you are going to continue to use it...
*******Please thoroughly review how to use an e-collar before you start going around zapping your dog. They are a great tool when used correctly (which you most certainly are not) and can cause a LOT of issues when used poorly.****


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

pshah0002 said:


> some of the problem inside house includes running like crazy back and forth i mean literally for at least 2-3 minutes fast continuously, grab socks and towels in mouth and run, unexpectly start nipping me, start following me wherever i go (doesnt listen to stay command), etc.
> 
> I kept him inside with ecollar today for couple hours and i felt like i was in heaven, he just sat there and chewed on his antler and then fall a sleep. i was surprise to watch Tv without getting up 20 times. Let me clear that I didnt used any shock on him i just pressed negative tone button and he behaved well thinkinh that shock is coming if ii dont behave well. I hope this work without me giving him shocks (that's the last thing i want to do, because everytime i shock him i felt guilty for doing that). thanks for your help.


Please educate yourself on puppy behavior.
You are punishing a puppy for running in the house, when it is more than likely because you did not provide adequate exercise to get the puppy tired.
Get an expen or a crate and put him in there if you want him to learn to be calm in the house.
He follows you around because you are his whole world.
He wants companionship and wants to play. YOU removed him from his mother and his litter mates and you are all he has right now.

Please do right by this puppy you took into your home and learn how to deal with him.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its a pup bud, at least 1.5 years of craziness ahead. I would not use the E Collar to punish youthful exuberance. Get a crate, and EXERCISE the dog a lot. Work him in OB or sport if possible. Channel his energy and enthusiasm dont crush it. IMO if you raise him this way there is a good chance you will ruine his confidence and self esteem, leading to a shy insecure nerve bag. 
I have strict rules in the house which I enforce with my voice and hands, but the dog MUST have an outlet for his energy. When in the home just crate, its really the best thing for pups.
The E collar is best for Recall and OB once the dog already KNOWS what he is supposed to do and has been introduced to the collar properly. I use it on my 11 month old pup when we are off leash works like a charm.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

CRATE is a must if you want some piece in the house it is a safe place where the pup can relax and you can go about your things.I recentely bought mine for like $100 on amazon.com size extra large.. it took couple of days to get it...best money I ever spent on her.Now if I can't watch the dog I know she is quiet and safe in crate not chewing on the furniture and not destroying the house.. Shocking a puppy because he wants to play is ridiculous,would you punish your kid if it playful? You have to look at the puppy the same way you look at the baby,they don't know any better and they are troublemakers. And also if he is crazy in the house you really need to exercise him, tired puppies are very good puppies


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

pshah0002 said:


> i have no experience with e collars and i am just affraid that using this will make Max scare of things that i dont want him to do. any advise on how to use this device and your experience will really appreciate. i dont want to use this device this everyday because i love max to death and i feel like i am actually huring him or his feeling everytime i shock him. please help!!!


I'd suggest that you take a look at my articles to learn one way to use the Ecollar. Home It's essential that you show the dog how to turn off the stim. I think that the tool is best used at the lowest level of stim that the dog perceives. I also suggest using a tool that has at least 15 levels, more is better, and I recommend the two collars that have at least 100 levels, the Einstein brand (100 levels) and the Dogtra brand (127 levels). 

Your dog should be at least six months old before you consider using the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> I will say, the first introduction to my dog where I used the pager, it depressed her for hours. She refused treats the first time ever in her life. After that, she went back to normal and turns out to have quite a bit of tolerance for the stims.


Many people want to use the vibe feature on their Ecollars. They think that they're _"being kinder"_ to the dog than if they were to use the stim. But that's a bit of anthropomorphism that often doesn't hold true. Many dogs find the vibration more aversive than the stim, and since it's not adjustable, there's little it can be used for if your dog has that response. It seems as if your dog does. I've seen some dogs panic when they feel the stim. I've seen many dogs show some curiosity when they first feel it and then they ignore it, making it just as useless. 

There's one brand of Ecollar that has adjustable setting for the vibe, but they've been bought out by one of the big box stores and I expect that the quality will drop. I no longer recommend them.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> Many people want to use the vibe feature on their Ecollars. They think that they're _"being kinder"_ to the dog than if they were to use the stim. But that's a bit of anthropomorphism that often doesn't hold true. Many dogs find the vibration more aversive than the stim, and since it's not adjustable, there's little it can be used for if your dog has that response. It seems as if your dog does. I've seen some dogs panic when they feel the stim. I've seen many dogs show some curiosity when they first feel it and then they ignore it, making it just as useless.


Thanks for this explanation. After that initial encounter, the buzzer is now useless on her. She's learned it's not "real."


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I believe the OP's dog is over a year old. 

To the OP - sounds like your dog may just need more exercise and general training. A growing GSD can take up a lot of time to train and exercise properly. If you take Max out for walks or play in the park for 1 hr each day and train for about 10 or 15 min at home on something, plus teaching him what is acceptable and not acceptable throughout the day, the dog will settle better at home. It seems like the dog just needs a release for his energy. For the problems you are describing, I think you can work on it without the ecollar. Otherwise his energy will continue to build and just suppressed. 

Can you teach the dog "leave it" so that it's not taking your socks? For every behavior you don't like, teach the dog what you want it to do instead. Don't just say no to everything, if that's what you're doing. All this do take a lot of time initially but in the end you'll have a very very nice dog. 

Feel free to message me privately if you'd like to talk further. I'm no professional trainer but I understand your frustration!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Please thoroughly review how to use an e-collar before you start going around zapping your dog. They are a great tool when used correctly (which you most certainly are not) and can cause a LOT of issues when used poorly.





Sunflowers said:


> This.



These kinds of replies, (while I agree with the sentiment) are frustrating to people because they offer no actual help. No links to books or dvd's to check out/buy, no sites to visit, no suggestions of where to find a trainer, or even a basic premise of the training theory behind the ecollar. I understand people's reluctance to offer training advice with this over the internet, but simply saying to "review how to use one" isn't helpful to someone who's posted in the first post that they DON'T know how to use it and are looking to find out.


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

WOW!!!. I was really surprised with the replies. Nobody actual gave me suggestion or provided any help instead you all just went off and made me feel like i hate my dog and ii am ttrying to punish him. I love my dog more than anyone love their dog(s) on this site. Max is my first ever dog in my family. All I wanted to know was should i use this? is this a good tool? Safe to use? how to use it? but rreplies were shocking. By the way, i am returning my e collar back to amazon.com and I will see what other things i can do to make Max a happy family dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> These kinds of replies, (while I agree with the sentiment) are frustrating to people because they offer no actual help. No links to books or dvd's to check out/buy, no sites to visit, no suggestions of where to find a trainer, or even a basic premise of the training theory behind the ecollar. I understand people's reluctance to offer training advice with this over the internet, but simply saying to "review how to use one" isn't helpful to someone who's posted in the first post that they DON'T know how to use it and are looking to find out.


Well, thanks for the critique, but I actually took the time to PM Lou Castle and linked this post, telling him that someone could benefit from his expertise.

You never know what happens behind the scenes, and can't tell if someone did or did not actually do something to help in addition to what you see posted.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pshah0002 said:


> WOW!!!. I was really surprised with the replies. Nobody actual gave me suggestion or provided any help instead you all just went off and made me feel like i hate my dog and ii am ttrying to punish him. I love my dog more than anyone love their dog(s) on this site. Max is my first ever dog in my family. All I wanted to know was should i use this? is this a good tool? Safe to use? how to use it? but rreplies were shocking. By the way, i am returning my e collar back to amazon.com and I will see what other things i can do to make Max a happy family dog.


Instructing anyone *HOW* to use an e-collar on a forum is not wise! Look at Lou's site if you want more info on the proper intro/use of it.

Nobody is saying you hate your dog...you just don't know what you are doing with this tool and it is not going to "HELP" your dog! 
Better to know now than before you mess up. We are in it for the dogs well-being only.
Because this is your first dog, find a good trainer to help you with your issues. I'm sure there are many around that would be willing to help you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

pshah0002 said:


> WOW!!!. I was really surprised with the replies. Nobody actual gave me suggestion or provided any help instead you all just went off and made me feel like i hate my dog and ii am ttrying to punish him. I love my dog more than anyone love their dog(s) on this site. Max is my first ever dog in my family. All I wanted to know was should i use this? is this a good tool? Safe to use? how to use it? but rreplies were shocking. By the way, i am returning my e collar back to amazon.com and I will see what other things i can do to make Max a happy family dog.


Sometimes people on forums do get upset when someone comes after the fact and asks for advice, without having done their research first, especially when it involves doing something to the dog that is perceived as detrimental.

Things such as zapping a dog for following the owner around show lack of knowledge about dog behavior, and owners have a responsibility to inform themselves even if it is their first dog. 
This site has so many old threads with hundreds of pages of how-to, and it is easy to inform yourself. 

Had you asked before ever doing anything, the replies would not have been "shocking." 

All of your above questions would be answered much better than any of us could, if you go to a website where they specialize in e collar training and ask the professionals there.


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, thanks for the critique, but I actually took the time to PM Lou Castle and linked this post, telling him that someone could benefit from his expertise.
> 
> You never know what happens behind the scenes, and can't tell if someone did or did not actually do something to help in addition to what you see posted.


Thank you!! i wish someone had told me about Lou Castle earlier. Is this a paid memebership??


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You are welcome.
Here you go.
Home


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, thanks for the critique, but I actually took the time to PM Lou Castle and linked this post, telling him that someone could benefit from his expertise.
> 
> You never know what happens behind the scenes, and can't tell if someone did or did not actually do something to help in addition to what you see posted.


I didn't "critique" your post, but offering a one word post that consists of:

"This", 

really doesn't help the OP in any way that I can see. It basically ONLY offers your own "critique" of the first original post. If you like Lou's methods, you could simply have linked that site in that very first post, stating that here was a starting place for the OP to do some research.

Since people seem moody today, I'm going to qualify this by saying that this isn't meant to sound rude; but when someone posts asking for information, saying to them "Please do some research and inform yourself" seems like a rather rude oxymoron in itself. I mean, they're posting here FOR information. Pointing them to internet sites, as well as offering one's thoughts on ecollars, is more helpful than just the thoughts/opinions alone.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When it comes to e-collar training, there is a difference in instructing~ so offering the OP on how to train her dog is going to take months of instruction if it is done right. Some things cannot be trained on a forum.
I inform myself all the time, because I'd rather do my own research than just read a number of opinions from people I have no idea if they even know what they are writing about.
There are some things w/ training that should be left to the professionals instructing hands on...and this is one of them.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Too late to edit, but I should've added:
I mean how was anyone, especially the OP, supposed to know that you p.m'd . someone else for help?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> When it comes to e-collar training, there is a difference in instructing~ so offering the OP on how to train her dog is going to take months of instruction if it is done right. Some things cannot be trained on a forum.
> I inform myself all the time, because I'd rather do my own research than just read a number of opinions from people I have no idea if they even know what they are writing about.
> There are some things w/ training that should be left to the professionals instructing hands on...and this is one of them.


 I agree Jane and that's a fine sentiment. However, in the couple of posts that I'm basically thinking of, nowhere in either of those posts did they mention seeking a professional trainer. They just said to do some research, which is what the OP thought they were probably doing by posting asking for information here on this forum.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> trainer. They just said to do some research, which is what the OP thought they were probably doing by posting asking for information here on this forum.


You have a point, there.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Actually, sometimes the best advice is just to simply stop what you are doing immediately.

I'm sorry you do not like my post, but I do not give training advice on the use of ecollars any way shape or form over the internet nor do I endorse a particular trainer video or book. I felt it imperitive this individual does not continue their use of the ecollar and I want going to ignore that fact. But it it's all anyone will get on the subject from me....


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Actually, sometimes the best advice is just to simply stop what you are doing immediately.
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like my post, but I do not give training advice on the use of ecollars any way shape or form over the internet nor do I endorse a particular trainer video or book. I felt it imperitive this individual does not continue their use of the ecollar and I want going to ignore that fact. *But it it's all anyone will get on the subject from me..*..



But why didn't you just say that in the beginning? The "Simply stop what you're doing and please find a qualified trainer to help you in person?"

The bolded sentence is what is frustrating for people. It is almost like there is a "closed club" of "in" people, who know what they're doing and don't want to share any info with us lesser "pet" owners. Fine if you don't want to endorse a particular book, video or trainer. But just telling someone to "review" doesn't really tell them anything, let alone help them to find the right direction. 

It's not about whether *I* like it or not.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, thanks for the critique, but *I actually took the time to PM Lou Castle and linked this post, telling him that someone could benefit from his expertise.*
> 
> You never know what happens behind the scenes, and can't tell if someone did or did not actually do something to help in addition to what you see posted.


Thank you - I've done the same thing when there's an ecollar question. 

To the OP - this is just a personal opinion (don't want to stomp on the toes of the Ellis fans). I also bought the Ellis videos. I couldn't GIVE them away, so I tossed 'em. Sgt Lou Castle is the Best around & there's no crapola with him. Go to him, please.

BTW - when you bring up this topic - there will ALWAYS be those that are against their usage. Personally, I wish the nay-sayers would just avoid these threads - they don't like the collars & will never find anything good to say about them. Just come here to fight, IMO.

I also was against the ecollars - UNTIL I WENT TO LOU'S FORUM. This man is a genius with years & years of frontline experience. He's not a fly-by-night turd looking to bilk $$ from those watching his "videos".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Olivers' momma...the people who've posted on this thread are not anti e-collar nay-sayers. They(we) are telling the OP that learning how to use it effectively is very important! Starting a thread on how to use it is not going to work. From what I've read the OP wants a *quick easy fix* and with this breed there is none. * Slow strong foundation* training is what's needed in every aspect of training.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, if you read the post, they said they were scared of using it incorrectly, and they loved their dog to death and they were afraid of ruining him. This sounds to me like someone who just doesn't understand as much as many on this board. They were willing to come and ask for help here, and instead of the posts reading "Ecollars are excellent tools when used properly, please research some qualified trainers, talk to their clients and get some help in person, because it's too hard to teach this method and learn this method over the internet", they were told to "Stop and review the proper method of ecollars". Where? Where else to ask but a GSD forum? Obviously they don't _know what ecollars are about. _Maybe someone they know and respect in other venues advised them to get one. 

I can tell you right now, some of my best friends in the world, highly educated, highly responsible and empathetic people in almost every way, have _absolutely no freakin clue about how to raise a dog. _As much as I love them, I actually think it may be a blessing that their oldest son is highly allergic to dogs, based upon behavior I've seen them exhibit at my house towards Rocket. Luckily I have a stable solid dog who just takes it in stride, albeit with a confused "Wha..?" The point being, as has been mentioned before, we all start somewhere and they at least had the instinct that they're not doing it right, therefore prompting the post here.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Um, no it's not about a closed club. I am simply not into myself enough to feel I am in a position to be giving strangers on the internet advice on the use of ecollars.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Oh, I LOVE the fact the OP came here for help! I just wanted to make sure some of the negative comments the OP has already gotten & those she hasn't gotten yet will not cause her to leave. Been there, done that. The use of the ecollar is probably the hottest topic here & causes the biggest clashes.

I don't think I was out of line for giving her the warning that this topic may spark controversy. She already saw it for herself & was going to return the collar... My suggestion was that Lou Castle be contacted.

And, as far as finding a topic that fits one's needs - in a forum as large as this - that truly is searching for a needle in a haystack. I'm VERY glad the OP came here.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> *But why didn't you just say that in the beginning? The "Simply stop what you're doing and please find a qualified trainer to help you in person?"*
> 
> The bolded sentence is what is frustrating for people. It is almost like there is a "closed club" of "in" people, who know what they're doing and don't want to share any info with us lesser "pet" owners. Fine if you don't want to endorse a particular book, video or trainer. But just telling someone to "review" doesn't really tell them anything, let alone help them to find the right direction.
> 
> It's not about whether *I* like it or not.





RocketDog said:


> Well, if you read the post, they said they were scared of using it incorrectly, and they loved their dog to death and they were afraid of ruining him. This sounds to me like someone who just doesn't understand as much as many on this board. They were willing to come and ask for help here, and *instead of the posts reading "Ecollars are excellent tools when used properly, please research some qualified trainers, talk to their clients and get some help in person, because it's too hard to teach this method and learn this method over the internet", they were told to "Stop and review the proper method of ecollars". *Where? Where else to ask but a GSD forum? Obviously they don't _know what ecollars are about. _Maybe someone they know and respect in other venues advised them to get one.
> 
> I can tell you right now, some of my best friends in the world, highly educated, highly responsible and empathetic people in almost every way, have _absolutely no freakin clue about how to raise a dog. _As much as I love them, I actually think it may be a blessing that their oldest son is highly allergic to dogs, based upon behavior I've seen them exhibit at my house towards Rocket. Luckily I have a stable solid dog who just takes it in stride, albeit with a confused "Wha..?" The point being, as has been mentioned before, we all start somewhere and they at least had the instinct that they're not doing it right, therefore prompting the post here.



This is what I'm saying.....again. 

I'm done. Obviously people just read what they want. If you don't want to offer a suggestion, why bother posting? You don't have to give instructions or endorse, simply say certain methods require hands-on knowledge from experienced people to gain the most.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I did offer a suggestion. Stop what youre doing


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, I LOL'd at that. But surely you understand my point.....


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> This is what I'm saying.....again.
> 
> I'm done. Obviously people just read what they want. If you don't want to offer a suggestion, why bother posting? You don't have to give instructions or endorse, simply say certain methods require hands-on knowledge from experienced people to gain the most.


 
Is it a full moon or something?

I *DID* offer a suggestion - to contact Lou Castle! You can't just read about how to use ecollars & expect to use them correctly. So I suggested Sgt Castle.

Geez...:crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lou has chimed in...others have suggested Lou. I think the OP understands that Lou's site is the place to go for the info. Whether or not she follows through consistently on the training will be key. 
But before Lou posted, the OP had already been zapping her 14 month old pup for having the zoomies.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Ummm....long after I started posting about that. I wasn't referring to you. What page did you post that on.....3? (This is in response to Oliver's mama)

Edit, actually page 4. 

Jane, my posts were in reference to the first several the op received.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Lou has chimed in...others have suggested Lou. I think the OP understands that Lou's site is the place to go for the info. Whether or not she follows through consistently on the training will be key.
> But before Lou posted, the OP had already been zapping her 14 month old pup for having the zoomies.


When I hear someone use the term "zapping", I assume that they mean the stim is extremely high and painful. I really don't think the OP was "zapping" since he/she didn't describe the dog's reaction like most dogs would react to being "zapped" at high stim (yelping, jumping, avoidance, stressing, etc). And what's wrong with wanting your dog to behave in the house? The OP said the dog was running, grabbing things he wasn't supposed to, nipping. To me, that's not appropriate and it's not just having the zoomies, especially if the dog is nipping at people.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

ShatteringGlass said:


> When I hear someone use the term "zapping", I assume that they mean the stim is extremely high and painful. I really don't think the OP was "zapping" since he/she didn't describe the dog's reaction like most dogs would react to being "zapped" at high stim (yelping, jumping, avoidance, stressing, etc). And what's wrong with wanting your dog to behave in the house? The OP said the dog was running, grabbing things he wasn't supposed to, nipping. To me, that's not appropriate and it's not just having the zoomies, especially if the dog is nipping at people.





> some of the problem inside house includes *running like crazy back and forth i mean literally for at least 2-3 minutes fast continuously, grab socks and towels in mouth and run,* unexpectly start nipping me, start following me wherever i go (doesnt listen to stay command), etc.


 This *is* the zoomies, excellent description of it!!
Does this warrant using an e-collar? Or is it an easy way out? She could be playing with or crating or training the young dog, no need to use an e-collar for this behavior. I don't think anyone ever said anything about high stim or yelping, etc....those are your words only. Zapping, IMO is shocking the dog....at whatever level.
The opening post by the OP that stated she used shock not stim before knowing what she was doing with the collar~therefore the comments. And because we have no clue what collar she purchased, that can make a difference as well. Many are not consistent.


> **I just bought e collars for max to fix his minor inside home behavior. I introduced him with #2 stimulation and it seems like he got an idea that when i give him a command he better do it or he'll get shocked. i have no experience with e collars**


So now the OP has been informed of where to go for info. I hope she follows through in all fairness to her dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, the bottom line is those are fun behaviors for a dog, that involve the patience and humor of the pet owner. Those two things mean that you can do what is needed for training - those 3 D's that involve time and proofing. The three D?s of dog training and why you need to know about them | Dog Star Daily

Dogs that love to zoom, love to grab potholders and socks and important papers and help you wrap presents are dogs that you can enjoy! Last night my youngest, smallest dog (30#) did try to help me wrap presents. At first, because I was being so human (need to get this done, got to do it right) I was uptight. Then I looked at the joy in his face as he saw that big, moving paper and shiny bags of bows (bow toys???) and yay I dropped the tape wheeeeeee around the kitchen with that - and I ended up laughing so hard that my presents looked like they had been wrapped by a 2 year old. Had I been serious about wanting to do it well, I would have put him in his crate and given him something to do in there - he has a lot of energy and it needs to burn off. 

OP, take a look at this article: Relationship based Approach to Training | Suzanne Clothier and see where you can go from there. And more of her articles here: Articles | Suzanne Clothier


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

i have found trainer who is willing to help me with this. I dont think we will be using e collar. he's booked up for a month, so the training doesnt start till mid next month. thank you all who tried to help me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yay!! Wishing you and your pup the best! In the meantime there are several threads in the training forums to read!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

pshah0002 said:


> i have found trainer who is willing to help me with this. I dont think we will be using e collar. he's booked up for a month, so the training doesnt start till mid next month. thank you all who tried to help me.


Good.
You may want to exercise your dog more.
The behaviors you describe are those of a dog who has excess energy that he needs to expend.


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## pshah0002 (Mar 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Good.
> You may want to exercise your dog more.
> The behaviors you describe are those of a dog who has excess energy that he needs to expend.


 
Thank you. currently doing 45 - 60 mins a day. will increase it lil more.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> When it comes to e-collar training, there is a difference in instructing


Why is it any different than offering instruction on other methods? Thousands of books have been written on training with all kinds of methods. How is it that this sort of thing won't work with the Ecollar? 



onyx'girl said:


> I inform myself all the time, because I'd rather do my own research than just read a number of opinions from people I have no idea if they even know what they are writing about.


How do you know that your method of _"inform[ing your]self,"_ is not just bringing you _"opinions from people [that you] have no idea if they even know what they are writing about?"_ 



onyx'girl said:


> There are some things w/ training that should be left to the professionals instructing hands on...and this is one of them.


Why is it that you think that the _"training"_ with the Ecollar _"should be left to the professionals instructing hands on...?"_ Why is it OK that people give instructions on other methods here, but not on the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm sorry you do not like my post, but I do not give training advice on the use of ecollars any way shape or form over the internet nor do I endorse a particular trainer video or book.


Do you _"give training advice ... over the internet"_ on the use of any other tool? If so, why is that OK, but giving advice on the Ecollar is not? If you don't, disregard this question.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> I also was against the ecollars - UNTIL I WENT TO LOU'S FORUM. This man is a genius with years & years of frontline experience. He's not a fly-by-night turd looking to bilk $$ from those watching his "videos".


If I ever need a publicist, I know where to look. Lol. I'm no genius though. I've just was fortunate that I fell in with some of the best trainers in my field, and it was their ethos to share their information with anyone who asked. I've made far more than my share of mistakes. I like to think that most of them are behind me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Olivers' momma...the people who've posted on this thread are not anti e-collar nay-sayers. They(we) are telling the OP that learning how to use it effectively is very important! Starting a thread on how to use it is not going to work. From what I've read the OP wants a *quick easy fix* and with this breed there is none. * Slow strong foundation* training is what's needed in every aspect of training.


I've often heard the term _"quick fix"_ applied to the Ecollar. The term usually means something that works very quickly but does not last, such as putting duct tape on a leaky radiator hose to get the car home, until a permanent repair can be made. While the Ecollar does give very quick results, it hardly meets the "temporary" definition. It's at least as lasting as any other method and when applied properly, probably longer lasting. 

It's not necessary to _"start a thread [here] on how to use it."_ My articles are available with a click of the mouse. I'll disagree that * "Slow strong foundation *_ is what's needed in every aspect of training."_ There's no advantage to *"slow," * in fact, most people DON'T WANT slow. The Ecollar gives results very quickly and much other foundation work can be done very quickly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A shaky foundation is just that....will it hold up in the long run? I'd rather do it with the bigger picture in mind and proof it. That to me is training "applied properly". Which for me is going slower to make sure my dog is understanding the exercises and then proofing them with distractions. 
I didn't say the ecollar is a quick fix, just that the OP wants a quick fix and thinks the collar will do it instead of actually training/working with the dog! 
If we all had a remote in our hands, I could just see how well all the dogs in the world would be, especially if the remotes were in the wrong hands. 
If people do not understand the use for it, and just put it on the dog to correct a behavior is that good? I'd hope they'd learn about the training methods before experimenting on the dog, it is only fair.

Timing is very important in the correction and having someone that is versed in ecollar training to help a novice is a bad thing why? 
The OP had been given the advice to clik on your site. That is good advice. 
Not sure why you always have to over-analyze everyone's posts?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And once the OP posted the great information on what he wanted it for, and was able to get (and thankfully was good about accepting) feedback about it, it wasn't anything that you would really want to correct the dog for - playing.  Like bonking a kid for having zoomies too.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> This *is* the zoomies, excellent description of it!!
> Does this warrant using an e-collar? Or is it an easy way out? She could be playing with or crating or training the young dog, no need to use an e-collar for this behavior. I don't think anyone ever said anything about high stim or yelping, etc....those are your words only. Zapping, IMO is shocking the dog....at whatever level.
> The opening post by the OP that stated she used shock not stim before knowing what she was doing with the collar~therefore the comments. And because we have no clue what collar she purchased, that can make a difference as well. Many are not consistent.
> 
> So now the OP has been informed of where to go for info. I hope she follows through in all fairness to her dog.


Jane, where was this post from the OP? I never saw this one. I was a bit confused when people were saying it was a pup, because the first post I saw never said anything about the age, or what you quoted above. Did some get deleted?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

pshah0002 said:


> *some of the problem inside house includes running like crazy back and forth i mean literally for at least 2-3 minutes fast continuously, grab socks and towels in mouth and run, unexpectly start nipping me, start following me wherever i go (doesnt listen to stay command), etc.*
> 
> I kept him inside with ecollar today for couple hours and i felt like i was in heaven, he just sat there and chewed on his antler and then fall a sleep. i was surprise to watch Tv without getting up 20 times. Let me clear that I didnt used any shock on him i just pressed negative tone button and he behaved well thinkinh that shock is coming if ii dont behave well. I hope this work without me giving him shocks (that's the last thing i want to do, because everytime i shock him i felt guilty for doing that). thanks for your help.


Here it is. I think the dog is 13 months? Something young. Of course, it can be a lot, but then when they get old, you just wish for a day that they would do all that!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh yes. 

I just went back through the whole thread, and I can not find that post. Am I just dumb? LOL Or do I need more coffee? Did it get deleted?

Nvmnd. I saw it finally. Heh.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...re-find/195847-ecollars-help.html#post2649253

Should take you to it - post 8 there is a big quote above it.

Well, for anyone else looking. :rofl:


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I loved the zoomies when Stella was younger. She will still get them once in a while but not daily anymore. I used to let her zoom and just get into it with her. Fortunately we have a basement where she could zoom around without knocking over too much stuff. When it looked like she was about done, I would give her a nice calming belly rub. I didn't discipline her for this behavior. 
I have started using an e collar for "nonsense barking" in the yard. Spoke to my trainer in correct usage. I plan on using it in the future for recall. It seems to be a very effective tool when used properly. My son used an e collar on his dog a while back without any training....BIG MISTAKE. Fortunately he stopped before things went bad. So, I think an e collar has its place. Maybe they are not for everyone and every dog, but it is working well for us in this situation.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

OP's dog is about 14 or 15 months old, based on her other posts. IMO, old enough for ecollar, though maybe not right for the situation she needs it for. 

I appreciate Lou's open minded posts about how he views ecollar. Although I did not start ecollar with Lou's method (Michael Ellis), I do see some similarities. For most things, you can fix it with various methods and sometimes not one is better than the other, it really depends what a person has access to (learn and train) and can use effectively between themselves and the dogs. 

My experience of starting the dog onto ecollar was not slow. Not because I rushed it but the dog got each steps pretty quickly so I just went to the next. I believe the rate of how fast one goes depends on many factors and it's hard to judge the effectiveness simply by the rate of progression alone.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Lou has chimed in...others have suggested Lou. I think the OP understands that Lou's site is the place to go for the info. Whether or not she follows through consistently on the training will be key.
> But before Lou posted, *the OP had already been zapping her 14 month old pup for having the zoomies*.


Another example of permissive society...because the dog is "only 14 months old" - it should be allowed to act like an ass in the house?

"Zoomies" - cute term. Not so cute when a large uncontrolled dog whips thru the house, destroying things in its path. Might be fine with some people. Not with me. Nor is the addition of teeth. I hope the OP talks with Sgt Castle before the new-found trainer starts next month. (I also hope it's a decent trainer). Trainers we found were **** (is that a bad term on this forum?! _ Admin note: Yes!_) This is much like Monday-morning quarterbacking.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Olivers mama said:


> Another example of permissive society...because the dog is "only 14 months old" - it should be allowed to act like an ass in the house?
> 
> "Zoomies" - cute term. Not so cute when a large uncontrolled dog whips thru the house, destroying things in its path. Might be fine with some people. Not with me. Nor is the addition of teeth. I hope the OP talks with Sgt Castle before the new-found trainer starts next month. (I also hope it's a decent trainer). Trainers we found were POS' (is that a bad term on this forum?!) This is much like Monday-morning quarterbacking.


You are placing words that I never, ever used into my post. I personally don't think a 14 month old running through the house is "acting like an ass". Dogs will be dogs after all. When my dogs need outlet for energy it is outside time or "lets train" time, not get out the ecollar time.

But giving it a correction via ecollar for that IMO is a bit over the top because there are many other ways of "controlling" a young dog. 
It isn't about THE ecollar but the way it was used and the OP not knowing enough before using it.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> You are placing words that I never, ever used into my post. I personally don't think a 14 month old running through the house is "acting like an ass". *Dogs will be dogs after all*. When my dogs need outlet for energy it is outside time or "lets train" time, not get out the ecollar time.
> 
> But giving it a correction via ecollar for that *IMO* is a bit over the top because there are many other ways of "controlling" a young dog.
> It isn't about THE ecollar but the way it was used and the OP not knowing enough before using it.


So we have a difference of opinion. With all the fancy training spewed here, I'm personally amazed that a big dog running thru-out the house is "OK". At least you say it's Your Opinion that using an ecollar is inappropriate. Using the collar on a 4-month-old is inappropriate. Using it on an older dog is not. The running thru-out the house is only a small piece, I think. I think the dog probably has other times when he's acting wild.

Personally, *I* do not like Ziva running thru the house. At 88 lbs, she'd run thru you like a bull - if allowed to. In the 2 years we've had her, we either have to bring her in on a short lead, or block her butt all the way down the hallway - or she charges like a bull. And altho that behavior may only be slightly irritating, the fact that she could mow over 1 of my cats & hurt them is unacceptable. That behavior may be OK with some - it is not for me & obviously not with the OP. I don't think that's a bad thing, either.

In fact, if it weren't for my huge medical expenses (thank you, Cancer), I'd have an ecollar AND Sgt Castle at my house tomorrow. Our case may be different, as we're dealing with an abused Rescue, not a young dog raised from a pup in the house. No matter - in the end, we all look for that well-behaved dog.

We should agree to disagree. I'm already aware I am in the minority. And that's OK. My expected lifespan isn't as long as everyone else's. Whatever time I have left, I want a well-behaved dog & I inSIST my cats be safe from a running bull in the house. As I said earlier, I hope the OP visits Sgt Castle's forum & perhaps even talk with him prior to this trainer that was found.

To the OP - BEST WISHES for the upcoming training. Please let us know how things evolve.


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## robfromga (May 10, 2012)

Please dear God toss that collar in the dumpster. If you have a puppy that NEEDS a ecollar, you have a huge problem. 99.99% of dogs that are forced into submission have owners that don't understand dog or bread behavior. You have a HUGE communication problem with the dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

robfromga said:


> Please dear God toss that collar in the dumpster. If you have a puppy that NEEDS a ecollar, you have a huge problem. 99.99% of dogs that are forced into submission have owners that don't understand dog or bread behavior. You have a HUGE communication problem with the dog.


Anyone who thinks that modern use of modern Ecollars involves _"forc[ing a dog] into submission"_ is demonstrating how little they know about how the tool can be used.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> Anyone who thinks that modern use of modern Ecollars involves _"forc[ing a dog] into submission"_ is demonstrating how little they know about how the tool can be used.


So true. Our dog is almost 2 and we have been using the e collar with him since he was around 1.5. It has literally changed his life. He is dog reactive and couldn't be trusted 100% off lead with other dogs around. Working with a professional trainer to introduce the e collar we now are able to take him anywhere. His recall is 100% and he will interact nicely with other dogs or ignore them completely. Whereas before we would not take him anywhere other dogs could be around, he can now go. 

I would agree that starting out with an e collar, a professional trainer is great but not totally necessary. 

Also for anyone thinking they are cruel should try one on themselves. At the normal "working level" it feels like one of those muscle stimulation machines (anyone who's has physical therapy would be familiar). Unless he is highly stimulated this level gets his attention. Rarely do i have to move the dial.

Just my 2 cents...


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## robfromga (May 10, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> Anyone who thinks that modern use of modern Ecollars involves _"forc[ing a dog] into submission"_ is demonstrating how little they know about how the tool can be used.


Really ? The 8-10 sheps and the mals that I've owned or fostered must have been exceptions. The ecollar is a total last resort. If you have to rely on shocking your dog to listen then your training methods needs dressing up. 

Have at it though, not my animals. Guess you should get out the belt for the 3 year old that talks back too. The ecollar is a crutch for the trainer that can't devote the time a animal needs. 

Try working the dog, work his tail end off. Figure out what he's good at and capitalize on it. When he's tired, then train. Or you can just whoop him real guud!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

robfromga said:


> Or you can just whoop him real guud!


You can whoop up on old Lou Castle real guud, if ya'll wants to.

However you might at least look at his credentials first. 

Loucastle.com or just google Lou Castle.

You probably still won't like e-collars but Lou probably forgot more about dogs than a lot of us ever knew.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

robfromga said:


> Really ? The 8-10 sheps and the mals that I've owned or fostered must have been exceptions. The ecollar is a total last resort. *If you have to rely on shocking your dog to listen then your training methods needs dressing up.*
> 
> Have at it though, not my animals. Guess you should get out the belt for the 3 year old that talks back too. *The ecollar is a crutch for the trainer that can't devote the time a animal needs*.
> 
> Try working the dog, work his tail end off. Figure out what he's good at and capitalize on it. When he's tired, then train. Or you can just whoop him real guud!


Just what this topic needs --- more sarcasm. The ecollar is not a crutch, but a tool. Never hurts to keep one's mind open or gather a little more education for oneself.

I take it you are of the age group that never "got the belt". Well, for most of us that did, it wasn't abuse, it didn't kill us, & most of us learned not to repeat whatever action we did to get the belt in the first place. At least, I did. No one's talking about a "whooping" here. It's obvious you know next to nothing how these collars are used.*** very rude commend removed by ADMIN**.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> This *is* the zoomies, excellent description of it!!
> Does this warrant using an e-collar? Or is it an easy way out? She could be playing with or crating or training the young dog, no need to use an e-collar for this behavior. I don't think anyone ever said anything about high stim or yelping, etc....those are your words only. Zapping, IMO is shocking the dog....at whatever level.
> The opening post by the OP that stated she used shock not stim before knowing what she was doing with the collar~therefore the comments. And because we have no clue what collar she purchased, that can make a difference as well. Many are not consistent.
> 
> So now the OP has been informed of where to go for info. I hope she follows through in all fairness to her dog.


 
I find it intersting that you bolded every word except a really important one: NIPPING. The dog is biting when it get's its "zoomies". Also, we don't know if the OP has young kids. A large dog running around, nipping, and not listening is dangerous, especially if you had kids or guests, or maybe grandma and grandpa come over to visit. "Zoomies" are acceptable OUTSIDE behavior, not inside the house, IMO.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I find it intersting that you bolded every word except a really important one: NIPPING. The dog is biting when it get's its "zoomies". Also, we don't know if the OP has young kids. A large dog running around, nipping, and not listening is dangerous, especially if you had kids or guests, or maybe grandma and grandpa come over to visit. "Zoomies" are acceptable OUTSIDE behavior, not inside the house, IMO


I bolded the description of the zoomies. As I posted above, when this behavior happens with my pups, I take them *outside *or turn their activity into a training session, because clearly they are asking for attention. If it is not a good time, then crate is the place they go. I don't see any point in getting out an ecollar for this behavior! 
I would crate a dog when company comes over if they are an overexhuberant juvenile. 
I'm done going round and round in this thread, but I'm sure someone will quote my post for whatever reason. 
So get out the ecollar and have fun...even if you have no clue how to use it. Its all good.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> Just what this topic needs --- more sarcasm. The ecollar is not a crutch, but a tool. Never hurts to keep one's mind open or gather a little more education for oneself.
> 
> I take it you are of the age group that never "got the belt". Well, for most of us that did, it wasn't abuse, it didn't kill us, & most of us learned not to repeat whatever action we did to get the belt in the first place. At least, I did. No one's talking about a "whooping" here. It's obvious you know next to nothing how these collars are used. ** rude comment removed by ADMIN**.


Right! I agree with you 100% Olivers mama! The whole point of any training is to create reliability regardless of method or tool. There is nothing wrong with e collars and when used properly is a wonderful training tool. 

I want to take a second for everyone to think about this. If you are using a regular collar, regular leash, choke chain, prong collar, halti head collar ALL of these training devices/tools can be used in an abusive way. When people do not have proper knowledge or experience using ANY training device bad results can happen. 

The e collar has been given a bad name. It is not a crutch. It is not a torture device or a last resort tool. It is a highly effective training tool when used correctly!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> A shaky foundation is just that....will it hold up in the long run? I'd rather do it with the bigger picture in mind and proof it.


Not sure how this crept in here. My articles are set up with _"the bigger picture in mind"_ and they involve proofing to ensure reliability. 



onyx'girl said:


> That to me is training "applied properly". Which for me is going slower to make sure my dog is understanding the exercises and then proofing them with distractions.


If training is set up properly it's not necessary to _"go slower to make sure [the] dog is understanding the exercises."_ Proofing should be part of all training. 



onyx'girl said:


> I didn't say the ecollar is a quick fix, just that the OP wants a quick fix and thinks the collar will do it instead of actually training/working with the dog!


The insinuation here is that using an Ecollar is not _"actually training/working with the dog."_ That's just silly. 



onyx'girl said:


> If people do not understand the use for it, and just put it on the dog to correct a behavior is that good?


I don't think that anyone is advocating that. 



onyx'girl said:


> I'd hope they'd learn about the training methods before experimenting on the dog, it is only fair.


THAT, is what people here, who use the Ecollar, are advocating. 



onyx'girl said:


> Timing is very important in the correction and having someone that is versed in ecollar training to help a novice is a bad thing why?


I don't think that anyone said that this was a bad thing. But some are saying that having a trainer immediately available is necessary. It's not, and not everyone can afford that. 



onyx'girl said:


> Not sure why you always have to over-analyze everyone's posts?


I think that I analyze "just enough." lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Anyone who thinks that modern use of modern Ecollars involves _"forc[ing a dog] into submission"_ is demonstrating how little they know about how the tool can be used.





robfromga said:


> Really ? The 8-10 sheps and the mals that I've owned or fostered must have been exceptions.


Yep, really. Not sure how owning a few dogs has anything to do with knowing the many ways that an Ecollar can be used. Can you tell us?

If you, or anyone else wants to use the tool that way, they can. But thinking that it's the ONLY way to do it, just shows, as I said, how little that person knows about how the tool can be used. Please, do us all a favor, read my article called Teach the Recall and show us where the dog is _"forced into submission."_ 



robfromga said:


> The ecollar is a total last resort. If you have to rely on shocking your dog to listen then your training methods needs dressing up.


The Ecollar is far from a last resort. Perhaps you feel that way because you don't know much about the tool, as proven by your previous statement. Please show us where ANYONE in this discussion has said that they _"have to rely on shocking [their] dog to [get him] to listen."_ 



robfromga said:


> Guess you should get out the belt for the 3 year old that talks back too.


Thanks for AGAIN demonstrating how little you really know about Ecollars. Anyone who equates using one, to using a _"belt for the 3 year old that talks back"_ CLEARLY has no idea of ways that they can be used. You only display your lack of knowledge with statements like this. 



robfromga said:


> The ecollar is a crutch for the trainer that can't devote the time a animal needs.


Please show us some advantage to taking MORE time to solve a problem, than it needs. 



robfromga said:


> Try working the dog, work his tail end off. Figure out what he's good at and capitalize on it. When he's tired, then train.


Dogs learn best when they've NOT had their _"tail work[ed] off,"_ just as does any animal. Since you're so fond of anthropomorphism, try this. Have a child run around a track till he's exhausted, and then try to teach him long division. He can't learn a thing, he's too busy trying to catch his breath. That's some pretty bad advice you've just given there. 



robfromga said:


> Or you can just whoop him real guud!


ANOTHER example of your ignorance of the tool. These debate techniques might work on forums where very few people have experienced the tool. Here, you're not going to make much of an impression. If you'd like to learn something about the Ecollar rather than just repeat nonsense that you've read or heard from others, who know nothing about the tool, I'd suggest that you take a look at my articles. I've linked to the one on the recall and it's a good place to start. 

Here's what we know about you from your previous posts. 

You can't get a group photo of your dogs because you're not able to _"get them to settle down."_ 
You've got a 9-10 week old puppy who is being "aggressive" towards one of your other dogs ... You've _"t[r]ied leash corrections, making him sit...[you're] at a loss."_ 
Previously you wrote that you've _"owned " dogs in [your] life..." Yet, in this post you write, "The 8-10 sheps and the mals that I've owned or fostered..." Which is it, "6-7 dogs" or "8-10" dogs? 
[*]Regarding the "aggression problem" with this puppy, you state, "I'm guessing its his prey drive sparking up?" Drive, especially prey drive, doesn't manifest itself at this age except to the smallest degree. 
[*]Back in May (just 7 months ago) you wrote, "The training will be a first, *I've never taken a dog to a class before, it will be a learning experience for us both."* 
[*]You diagnosis your puppy's aggression as "fear type aggression" and then ask, "How do I work him into self confidence?" 
[*]Your 14 week old dog is showing aggression toward other dogs and you ask, "Other than just socialization how do you train out fear aggression? ...What should I do when he starts barking at a dog 75' away, that has shown no threat? How do I redirect so I can reward the proper behavior?" 
_
_ 

robfromga I really don't think you're experienced enough to be giving dog training advice OF ANY KIND here. You're not a trainer and in fact you've only been to one training class in your entire life of owning dogs, that one, as a student. You're welcome to your opinion, but people should be aware of your lack of experience in training dogs. Now they are._


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lou, I use an ecollar....I'm not against them. The OP put it on her pup before she knew how to use it! That is the crux of this thread 


> a highly effective training tool* when used correctly*!


I believe this is the whole issue....using it correctly is the most important thing!


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Lou, I use an ecollar....I'm not against them. The OP put it on her pup before she knew how to use it! That is the crux of this thread
> 
> I believe this is the whole issue....using it correctly is the most important thing!


Yes it is, but somehow it got turned into whether the behavior the OP's dog was exhibiting was acceptable, whether it should be addressed by them by being able to get the dog to stop, rather than just ignoring the behavior by crating or putting the dog outside.

It's their dog, and they want to train their dog so it will stop running around like a nut in the house when told, "out" things on command, and stop biting.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

ShatteringGlass said:


> I find it intersting that you bolded every word except a really important one: NIPPING. The dog is biting when it get's its "zoomies". Also, we don't know if the OP has young kids. A large dog running around, nipping, and not listening is dangerous, especially if you had kids or guests, or maybe grandma and grandpa come over to visit. "Zoomies" are acceptable OUTSIDE behavior, not inside the house, IMO.


I agree.
15 months old is still a puppy but a very large one. Excusing bad behaviour because the dog is 15 months old and a GSD with lots of energy just sets one up for a big problem down the road. 
Just like excusing bad nipping as the "landshark" phase.
It seems to depend upon the makeup of the household sometimes. People with a dog and no kids can laugh about "zoomies" around the house, knocking things down or a puppy drawing blood every time it nips BUT in a household with young children these behaviours are dangerous. 
Careful what you excuse on the premise of an excited GSD......as if not well under control by 15months I would think it is the reason a lot of these dogs would end up in a shelter.


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