# Thoughts on this litter?



## evanGSD (May 18, 2020)

Elroy Barnero & Hessi Stáhlavský diamant - Witmer Tyson Imports






www.witmertyson.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elroy is super nice. A friend bred to him last year. There is a lot of aggression in that pedigree. What is the breeder expecting to produce from the pair?


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

What are you wanting to do with your pup? What is your experience?


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## evanGSD (May 18, 2020)

We're looking for a mellow family dog with low drive. Not sure what she is expecting to produce. Assuming she is keeping up supply with demand.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

evanGSD said:


> We're looking for a mellow family dog with low drive. Not sure what she is expecting to produce. Assuming she is keeping up supply with demand.


Might not be the litter for you..


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Not a good fit for what you want but great breeding


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

evanGSD said:


> We're looking for a mellow family dog with low drive. Not sure what she is expecting to produce. Assuming she is keeping up supply with demand.


Have you reached out to Randy at all and explained what you’re looking for? i wouldn’t exclude WL dogs entirely and each litter can produce a range of drives.... but, from reputation and dogs i’ve known in passing... her program wouldn’t be the first place i’d look for a mellow, low drive dog.

also, for what it’s worth and to prepare you.... a low drive dog is going to be harder to motivate and train, and i wouldn’t expect any well bred GSD to mellow out for several years.

Talk to the breeder - if she can serve you, let them recommend a breeding/litter that’s right for you, as well as select your pup.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I agree not the right litter for what's you want but great breeding


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

evanGSD said:


> We're looking for a mellow family dog with low drive. Not sure what she is expecting to produce. Assuming she is keeping up supply with demand.


Others may disagree with me on this, but I’m actually not sure a (well bred) German shepherd is the right breed for you. I would not describe this breed as mellow or low drive unless it’s an anomaly or, frankly, poorly bred. I guess it depends on what you consider mellow and low drive. Compared to a pug? A German shepherd would seem to be on speed. Compared to a working line border collie? A GSD could be considered easy. But when someone says they want mellow, I immediately think of a lazy couch-potato that doesn’t need much exercise or stimulation. That should not be a German shepherd.

EDIT: Thought about it and decided that I would need more information before simply saying it isn’t a good breed for you. However, I stand by my statement that German shepherds aren’t typically described as mellow or low drive.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

...and to me, mellow means easy going, not pushy, demanding, impulsive or easily excitable. I think a GSD can be that, but it’d have to be expected from an adult or senior. And of course assuming all of their training requirements and needs have been met early on.

I’d be more inclined to call a dog with low drive the couch potato.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Fodder said:


> ...and to me, mellow means easy going, not pushy, demanding, impulsive or easily excitable. I think a GSD can be that, but it’d have to be expected from an adult or senior. And of course assuming all of their training requirements and needs have been met early on.
> 
> I’d be more inclined to call a dog with low drive the couch potato.


That’s the problem with words that people have to interpret and read into. Whenever I hear someone say mellow, they’re referring to energy level. Each person sees things differently, hence why I edited to say more info was needed before saying a shepherd wasn’t a good fit.

I also wouldn’t call a dog with low drive a couch potato, because, again, I might see drive differently than you. A dog with low drive can be like my golden, who has absolutely zero interest in toys, doesn’t like to chase things because she has almost zero prey drive... about all she has is pack drive. She could never be called mellow when she was a puppy or an adult. Now she could be as a senior. I know lots of dogs that are hyperactive and absolutely obnoxious. Also what I call “low drive.”


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Pytheis said:


> That’s the problem with words that people have to interpret and read into. Whenever I hear someone say mellow, they’re referring to energy level. Each person sees things differently, hence why I edited to say more info was needed before saying a shepherd wasn’t a good fit.
> 
> I also wouldn’t call a dog with low drive a couch potato, because, again, I might see drive differently than you. A dog with low drive can be like my golden, who has absolutely zero interest in toys, doesn’t like to chase things because she has almost zero prey drive... about all she has is pack drive. She could never be called mellow when she was a puppy or an adult. Now she could be as a senior. I know lots of dogs that are hyperactive and absolutely obnoxious. Also what I call “low drive.”


I don’t think you’re so far off... even with the variance of individual words, they (low energy, low drive, mellow, non aggressive, etc) do tend to end up in the same “package” tho not exclusively..... and no, that’s not generally what we think of when we think of a well bred GSD. But since there are reputable breeders producing good “family dogs”, hopefully with the clarification of some terms, a bit of education, effort and the right puppy - the OP can find that.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Actually I have seen some nice Shiloh shepherds if somebody is looking for a more mellow pet. This litter is not mellow. I have only been around one Elroy puppy. Puppy appeared very drivey and trainable but extremely soft. There is a lot of real aggression coming from the mothers side so hopefully the nerves from Elroy can handle it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would look for a Showline or a pet line dog. If I understand correctly what you want, you are looking for a dog that will be good with children and not require a lot of extra training beyond maybe obedience. How much exercise will your dog get? The best way to have a calm German Shepherd is exercise and training, and of course, genetics.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

rotdocpa1 said:


> Actually I have seen some nice Shiloh shepherds if somebody is looking for a more mellow pet. This litter is not mellow. I have only been around one Elroy puppy. Puppy appeared very drivey and trainable but extremely soft. There is a lot of real aggression coming from the mothers side so hopefully the nerves from Elroy can handle it.


What about for an active family (no kids, no other pets) who is looking into agility/obedience/tracking as a hobby, and who wants a dog to accompany us on hikes and other activities? We are looking for a well-rounded dog who is social and not reactive, and who has an off switch. We plan on dedicating a lot of time and consistent effort to training. We want a dog who is eager to please and learn, but is loving and able to relax at home. Thanks.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

HapPup said:


> What about for an active family (no kids, no other pets) who is looking into agility/obedience/tracking as a hobby, and who wants a dog to accompany us on hikes and other activities? We are looking for a well-rounded dog who is social and not reactive, and who has an off switch. We plan on dedicating a lot of time and consistent effort to training. We want a dog who is eager to please and learn, but is loving and able to relax at home. Thanks.


Were you asking about the litter originally posted on this thread, or in general?


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Were you asking about the litter originally posted on this thread, or in general?


Specifically about this litter. They have been recently bred and I am deciding whether to sign up for the waitlist.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Have you considered a WGSL pup? I think it might be a good fit for what you want.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Pawsed said:


> Have you considered a WGSL pup? I think it might be a good fit for what you want.


Thank you for your response. Yes, we have looked into WGSL. I think we fall somewhere between a WGSL and a WL with lower drive (for a WL - I'm well aware that GSDs are high drive dogs in general). I appreciate the focus and dedication of WLs for training, and it has been my dream to train my own puppy from scratch. I come from a horse background. I'm a pretty intense and determined person when I work, and I appreciate those qualities in a GSD too. I would like to get into advanced obedience: I admire the obedience displayed by Schutzhund dogs in trials. I'd also like to dabble in tracking and/or agility, but just for fun. I have no aspirations to compete or title. I would take it as far as it was fun for me and my pup, and I would not be disappointed if he or she were not the fastest or most talented. I do not plan on exploring protection or bitework. What I like the most is the deep bond that develops between an animal and its handler, and I want to feel that again.

My husband is an athlete and can throw a ball until his arm falls off. He is excited about having a running and exercise buddy. He also has the personality of a rambunctious golden retriever and will do well with an energetic dog. I enjoy an active lifestyle too, though I'm more interested in the intellectual aspect of training and the psychology of it. Between the two of us, I'm fairly confident that we could meet the mental and physical needs of a WL GSD.

Our dog will be our family companion and we want to be able to take him with us (almost) everywhere. My main concern is that we find a dog that does well in social situations, is not dog or people reactive, and does not have aggression. We like to socialize a lot (pre-COVID) and enjoy meeting our friends for BBQs, for a glass of wine and board games, etc., and our dog needs to fit in to that lifestyle. We would like a pup that is unbothered by strangers and other dogs, and that will warm up eventually to our friends.

I think we will both enjoy the drive and eagerness to please of a WL. But we also need a dog with an off switch when it is time to relax at home. This is why I am thinking of a puppy from a working line that would fall on the lower end of the drive spectrum in the litter. (Even though I realize that dogs with lower drives are harder to train and motivate...). While we will work hard and consistently on training, I'm wary of a prey drive that is off the charts where our dog beelines for someone's yappy lap dog. I would like a dog with a high threshold that is not easily activated. Even though I would never willingly put my dog in a situation that would antagonize him, you can't always control that (e.g. your friend's runaway toddler suddenly grabs the dog, a poorly trained offleash dog on a trail, etc.) - and I don't want a liability. Above all, we want a dog that is game for anything: hiking, road trips, beach day, etc. This pup will be our treasured companion for the next 10-13 years and will be with us throughout our life changes (having kids, maybe moving abroad).

From the research that I've done, it looks like WLs can be wonderful family dogs. I'd be grateful for your thoughts on the matter.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

What you're describing is a labrador or a golden retriever. Have you considered those breeds? Poodles are also extremely intelligent, and social as well with proper training.

Not trying to say a GSD can't work for you, but from your description you'll need to put in a lot of time and conditioning to get the dog you want - regardless of SL/WL! These dogs are meant to have some suspicion and aggression. 

You can temper those propensities with training, but it does take time and lots of it!


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> What you're describing is a labrador or a golden retriever. Have you considered those breeds? Poodles are also extremely intelligent, and social as well with proper training.
> 
> Not trying to say a GSD can't work for you, but from your description you'll need to put in a lot of time and conditioning to get the dog you want - regardless of SL/WL! These dogs are meant to have some suspicion and aggression.
> 
> You can temper those propensities with training, but it does take time and lots of it!


Thank you for your prompt response. Yes, we are set on a GSD. The whole point is that I want to work on training and conditioning! I am used to working and training with horses, including some tough and difficult ones, and some that were glorified donkeys. But since those horses were already of a certain age, there is only so much you can do. My dream has always been to train my very own dream dog from scratch. For me, training is not just a chore that I need to accomplish X times a day, but something that is ongoing and constant. (Not that it will be all work and no play, just saying that I enjoy taking any opportunity to teach my dog the behaviors that I like). I very much appreciate the drive and intelligence of working dogs, and their eagerness to learn and please (they definitely are NOT glorified donkeys). Mostly, I know that the bond that comes from a longstanding training relationship with an animal has been one of the most rewarding and meaningful in my life, and I am ready to experience that again. To be completely honest, I want a velcro dog 

I agree that GSDs are not golden retrievers and they are aloof rather than sociable, by nature. This is totally fine, and I do not require indiscriminate friendliness with outsiders. But I would like our GSD to either sit nicely next to us when we are hanging out with friends, or at least be indifferent. My biggest fear is to have a highly strung basket case that we cannot take anywhere because they are too reactive. Now, I realize this is somewhat irrational, and that good breeders breed for temperament and solid nerves, and that my husband and I will work hard on socialization so that our pup does not have damaging experiences which lead to fear-based reactions.

But I would love to know your thoughts on the degree of innate aggression. Suspicion is fine - this is a desired and healthy trait. But once our dog realizes that the people we are calmly interacting with don't pose a threat, can I expect a well-bred GSD to be neutral towards them? I understand that what makes them chase squirrels and cats is prey drive, and that conditioning will be required to redirect that to acceptable outlets (and hence choosing a lower drive pup will also help). But I am worried about aggression. How does one mitigate that through training, and is it even possible? Thank you!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Aggression is part of the breed. They were designed to chase and bite people. Yes, there are GSDs capable of fitting into your lifestyle, but as Tim stated above, a lab or golden fits the bill much better and will probably require much less training. 

Would you rather have a GSD in a down stay by your side that you had to keep an eye on or a lab wandering around the party without a care?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

HapPup said:


> Thank you for your prompt response. Yes, we are set on a GSD. The whole point is that I want to work on training and conditioning! I am used to working and training with horses, including some tough and difficult ones, and some that were glorified donkeys. But since those horses were already of a certain age, there is only so much you can do. My dream has always been to train my very own dream dog from scratch. For me, training is not just a chore that I need to accomplish X times a day, but something that is ongoing and constant. (Not that it will be all work and no play, just saying that I enjoy taking any opportunity to teach my dog the behaviors that I like). I very much appreciate the drive and intelligence of working dogs, and their eagerness to learn and please (they definitely are NOT glorified donkeys). Mostly, I know that the bond that comes from a longstanding training relationship with an animal has been one of the most rewarding and meaningful in my life, and I am ready to experience that again. To be completely honest, I want a velcro dog
> 
> I agree that GSDs are not golden retrievers and they are aloof rather than sociable, by nature. This is totally fine, and I do not require indiscriminate friendliness with outsiders. But I would like our GSD to either sit nicely next to us when we are hanging out with friends, or at least be indifferent. My biggest fear is to have a highly strung basket case that we cannot take anywhere because they are too reactive. Now, I realize this is somewhat irrational, and that good breeders breed for temperament and solid nerves, and that my husband and I will work hard on socialization so that our pup does not have damaging experiences which lead to fear-based reactions.
> 
> But I would love to know your thoughts on the degree of innate aggression. Suspicion is fine - this is a desired and healthy trait. But once our dog realizes that the people we are calmly interacting with don't pose a threat, can I expect a well-bred GSD to be neutral towards them? I understand that what makes them chase squirrels and cats is prey drive, and that conditioning will be required to redirect that to acceptable outlets (and hence choosing a lower drive pup will also help). But I am worried about aggression. How does one mitigate that through training, and is it even possible? Thank you!


Don't discount the ability of a lab. A field bred dog will go all day. Honestly they are more athletic than most GSDs. They are intelligent, biddable and capable of anything a GSD can do except protection. 

A GSD with solid nerves and training can hang out at a BBQ just fine. I think you would be fine with a good trainer guiding you and heading off potential problems. I just think you are describing a good lab in temperament and behavior, and wanting a GSD to fit that mold.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I just think you are describing a good lab in temperament and behavior, and wanting a GSD to fit that mold.


And this can be a slippery slope bc at 8 weeks, when you pick your puppy up, no one can guarantee what it’ll be. 


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Best bomb dog I've ever seen is a lab.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I've had GSDs that hung out at BBQs, mooching food and pets, but I've also had many that were put up when guests arrive. Both are correct and boil down to the dogs personality. You are not going to be able to tell that at 8 weeks and even if you get the right pup it's easy to push them over to the other side.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Many enjoy a good barbecue: For what it sounds like you are looking for in a gsd pup is a pup that has a high threshold, good strong nerves with balanced drives , bideabilty with some degree of socialness would be what you want to look for in a gsd to make a good family dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You can find German shepherds of all lines that fit the bill for what you want. You need to make a good choice in the pairing. Where are you located? Ok more concerned about you have a reliable trainer available to you if you start having issues.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

If you’re really going to train in agility, tracking, and advanced obedience, it’s more enjoyable with a dog that is athletic and LOVES to work. One that doesn’t need to be bribed or compelled to do the job. 

You (and your husband) also need to enjoy living with your dog. 

From your overall description I think you’d be fine with the right working line dog. But IF your dog doesn’t end up being the type of dog to hang out at BBQ’s, you need to be willing to just put the dog up when you have company, and not resent it.

In your search I’d be very clear that you want dogs that are more socially open, can be handled by strangers, and dogs that live in the house and can live loose with other dogs. Among other things. JMHO.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

ETA - IMO, if you’re actually training in three sports, or a three phase sport, you fall outside of the realm of casual pet owner. Doing three separate sports is basically a lifestyle asjustment, and you’ll end up spending a big chunk of time around dog people anyway. Again, JMHO.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Thank you all for your replies - I appreciate it. I have been a fan of GSDs forever: their loyalty, intelligence, and look. (No offense to labs or goldens, but clearly we all have a preference, hence why we're on this forum). Let me reiterate that "will need less training" is not a selling point for me: I love everything about the process of teaching an animal, seeing them get it, working through struggles, adjusting communication, etc.

As @WIBackpacker says, it is much more enjoyable to work with an animal who actually wants to do it. I've worked with my fair share of horses that would work only when it suited them, who were a struggle to motivate, and did the bare minimum. That is frustrating. As for whether I fall outside the realm of casual pet owner - I suppose it depends on definitions. As for training: I would like to get as far as I can in terms of obedience, and this will be a life-long pursuit. With regards to agility and tracking, I would be a hobbyist, and it would be something to check out on weekends. It would be casual with no pretension towards doing 3 separate sports as a "serious" competitor - just for fun. I would try both: if my pup is really good and enjoys one, I'd stick with that one. If neither are fun, no biggie, we can find something else to do. I just want to do activities with my dog and see how far I can go in teaching them things (whether it's a recognized dog sport or a trick like bringing me a beer from the fridge). I am serious about obedience though. So I guess I am casual about the outlet/forum of what I end up doing with my dog, but yes, I am more intense than my friends who have pets.

Dog training is a personal goal of mine: I am enjoying learning about it and would like to keep doing so (with the support of a trainer). I have identified a local dog trainer and classes in my area, but always keen for more suggestions. @Bearshandler  to answer your question, I am in southern California. To be clear, I don't care about having the most accomplished/trained dog for stuff like agility or tracking in terms of "output" (e.g. jumping the best, whatever). Nor do I have ambitions to become a pro. I just like the "input", i.e. trying my best with my dog and seeing where we go. Obedience, however, is non-negotiable for me and is something that I consider foundational and that I will always seek to improve.

Thank you all for describing your experiences with your dogs in a social setting. This is very helpful. Yes, it was my impression that I should look for a GSD exactly as @Jenny720 described: strong nerves, high threshold, biddable, balanced, and sociable (for a GSD). My plan - as most of the advice goes - is to work with a good breeder and trust them to match me with the right pup. It seems that a breeder who knows their bloodlines and raises the puppies should be able to identify the puppy's drives. Yet, some of the posts seem to suggest that temperament in terms of sociability is a crapshoot and cannot be identified at 8 weeks.

My question is this: does sociability have to do with bloodlines and socialization, or is it more random than that? If I understand correctly, drives are different than sociability, and a breeder would be able to identify the pup from the litter with lower/moderate prey drive - so that's cool. Let's assume that we are able to identify drives at 8 weeks (or have a good sense of them), and further assume that me and my husband don't screw up the socialization of our puppy. How would you identify the degree of (potential future) sociability: carefully research bloodlines? Be really specific with the breeder? Or is it luck of the draw? Thank you all.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HapPup said:


> My question is this: does sociability have to do with bloodlines and socialization,


Yes. I believe so. I have one dog that would work for me until he dropped. Just because I asked. And another that is more independent and about her own self. I had to work very hard to put value on ME so she wants to "work". 

The Falk lines seem to be known for biddability, which is what my male is from and other Falk lines I've see have that same willingness to please and work with their people. 

So to answer just that one line from your post - I very much think that biddability is genetic. And I think you are referring to biddability to the handler, not social? I think that with training and work, you can create a working relationship with dogs that aren't genetically predisposed to want to work. Reference the Russian Fox study. I think that is relevant to this question even though it's a different species.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sociability refers to bloodlines some breedings may have a breeding with more known social traits depending upon what the breeder is breeding for. Also each pup in a litter vary and some pick up more social traits that are passed down then the litter mates. So when this can be see I do not know.
These are questions you want to talk to different breeders and important you tell them what you are looking for.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Be very selective, and spend time around lots of GSDs. You'll decide what you like and what you don't. And then you can seek out breedings from the dogs that you like.

This forum is full of posts made by stressed out people who were mis-matched with entirely the wrong type of puppy. In a lot of cases, there's nothing _*wrong *_with the dog, but it's a terrible fit for the person who bought it. 

There's also a very common trend of people thinking that dog sports will be fun, so they go out and buy a puppy that has all the right genetic "stuff" to do all the things. Then the reality of thousands of miles and many many hours in the car, long days and very early mornings, etc. turns them off and they don't continue. Then they resent the dog because they don't want to bend their lifestyle around the dog's above-average needs. 

I don't say any of the above to try and turn you away from the breed - but the reality of dogs with a lot of drive isn't everyone's cup of tea.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. I believe so. I have one dog that would work for me until he dropped. Just because I asked. And another that is more independent and about her own self. I had to work very hard to put value on ME so she wants to "work".
> 
> The Falk lines seem to be known for biddability, which is what my male is from and other Falk lines I've see have that same willingness to please and work with their people.
> 
> So to answer just that one line from your post - I very much think that biddability is genetic. And I think you are referring to biddability to the handler, not social? I think that with training and work, you can create a working relationship with dogs that aren't genetically predisposed to want to work. Reference the Russian Fox study. I think that is relevant to this question even though it's a different species.


Thank you, @Jax08. I was actually referring to sociability (openness, tolerance) to others - not biddability towards the handler. What I love about GSDs is their genetic eagerness to work and please their handler. I think even a GSD with low biddability would be far superior than many other breeds in terms of willingness to work. My question was less about the relationship between our dog and us - I am fairly confident that with enough work, training, and support from others - my husband and I can provide the right structure and leadership for the dog to want to want to please us. (But yes, I totally take your point that temperaments vary and we might need to work harder to get our dog interested in us).

Rather, I was curious about the relationship of the dog with the outside world - their tolerance towards others who aren't their people - and what determined that.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

As mentioned, the pedigree the OP asked about has a number of dogs with strong aggression and is not a good match for what she stated she was looking for in a dog.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I’m watching this thread as I’m a first timer with what was a crap shoot and I fouled up tons of times with him but, no one’s been hurt, I was dedicated and still am to his training although not perfect, a small percentage of my life has changed due to his “faults” one biggie, I won’t board him so trips with Dh alone aren’t happening but we were never vacationers anyway. and I pretty much take him everywhere with a modicum of constant awareness of his surroundings which has become muscle memory for me.

He is DA but even with that we were able to do scent work and trial successfully. It took work but I almost always found that work to be fun.

Why am I telling you this, because you are starting out way ahead of where I was and we have not only survived but thrived.

I say listen to these wonderful people, especially about the particular litter you are looking at and maybe start another thread asking for breeders to look into. 

Just don’t ever take for granted how powerful they are and what they were bred for no matter how loving your pup will be to you and Dh. I don’t and it has kept us out of trouble.

I think you and Dh sound like a great first time GSD owner. 

Wish you luck.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

HapPup said:


> How would you identify the degree of (potential future) sociability: carefully research bloodlines? Be really specific with the breeder?


Yes. All of our GSDs (6 since 1986) have been varying levels of social. If that's important to you, be sure and stress it with the breeder. The more specific you can be about what you want and don't want, and which things are a must have and which are dealbreakers, the better. You can definitely find a dog with the drives to do all the sports/activities you mentioned that are also great active companions.

I fell into flyball with Halo. She was our first working line dog and I wanted to find something fun to do with her beyond just obedience classes and hikes and swimming but I didn't have any particular goals and wasn't looking to compete. I found a "for fun" flyball class, and since flyball classes were harder to find than agility classes I signed up for that first with the intention of doing an agility class later. We never got there, lol. She took to flyball like it had been invented especially for her so after the class was over I found a club and trained with them for a few months. They invited us to join, we started racing, and continued for 5 years until she developed DM and I had to retire her.

So for the next pup I was looking for a dog that could do well in the sport. I wanted fast, athletic, social with people, either social or neutral with other dogs, with biddability and drive. The breeder knew exactly what I was looking for and I loved her description of the dam and the pups. I got everything I was looking for in Cava and couldn't be more pleased with her. Knowing what you want, communicating that honestly, and having a breeder who knows his/her lines, will listen and make the best match (or tell you that they don't generally produce the kind of dog you're looking for), will increase your odds of success.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Be very selective, and spend time around lots of GSDs. You'll decide what you like and what you don't. And then you can seek out breedings from the dogs that you like.
> 
> This forum is full of posts made by stressed out people who were mis-matched with entirely the wrong type of puppy. In a lot of cases, there's nothing _*wrong *_with the dog, but it's a terrible fit for the person who bought it.
> 
> ...


That's exactly right. I understand the necessary need to gate-keep and give fair warning to others, but it seems to me that the right GSD in the right family can be an absolutely wonderful family dog. After all, dogs have been selectively bred to live with humans (and not just work) with humans for thousands of years.

RE: dog sports. I completely agree. That is why I am not looking for top competition sport dogs. The nearest Schutzhund club is far away from me and that is not realistic. I have found some cool agility and tracking instructors very close to me. I am approaching this very much as a casual thing. But the point is, we always want to do something. If tracking is fun - then awesome. If not, we can do something else at the weekends. My husband is into water sports - I don't think GSDs are particularly water dogs, but if it turns out that the dog is into it - then great. Otherwise, we'll hike, play, do obedience. There are some sheep herding classes out in the valley - we might check that out one weekend. I anticipate that it will very much be a mix and we'll dabble. But our weekends will surely revolve around dog-friendly stuff, and of course we plan on exercising/training daily.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HapPup said:


> Thank you, @Jax08. I was actually referring to sociability (openness, tolerance) to others - not biddability towards the handler. What I love about GSDs is their genetic eagerness to work and please their handler. I think even a GSD with low biddability would be far superior than many other breeds in terms of willingness to work. My question was less about the relationship between our dog and us - I am fairly confident that with enough work, training, and support from others - my husband and I can provide the right structure and leadership for the dog to want to want to please us. (But yes, I totally take your point that temperaments vary and we might need to work harder to get our dog interested in us).
> 
> Rather, I was curious about the relationship of the dog with the outside world - their tolerance towards others who aren't their people - and what determined that.


Yes. That is genetic as well. Absolutely. But I think the two qualities go hand in hand. Dogs are more civil. Nerve is relevant. Genetics are genetics. Again - the Russian Fox study is relevant to your question. I would disagree that a GSD with low biddablity is superior to other breeds in willingness to work. I would disagree that any dog of any breed would be superior in that circumstance. I would also disagree that any dog will just want to please you. They do it because something is in if for them, and it may appear that they are doing it for you, but an independent creature is just that. My female doesn't work for me. She works because she thinks there is a tug hidden on my body. I taught her that interaction with me gets her what she wants - to bite things. My male would work for a piece of sand as long as it was coming from me. My female needs external motivators. My male just needs my attention and anything external is a bonus. Those traits were evident in both at 8 weeks old. Neither biddability or sociability are aspects you can isolate because to many other temperament/personality components are involved.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> As mentioned, the pedigree the OP asked about has a number of dogs with strong aggression and is not a good match for what she stated she was looking for in a dog.


You're right - and I thank you and others for the feedback on this particular pedigree. I took the conversation towards sociability in general as I was curious. Apologies if I veered the thread off-topic.

Randy's reputation is stellar - and she has lots of very accomplished dogs. But I do not think this particular line would work for us.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HapPup said:


> the right GSD in the right family can be an absolutely wonderful family dog.


Yes. All. Day. Long. Yes. The key word here is "right"



HapPup said:


> After all, dogs have been selectively bred to live with humans (and not just work) with humans for thousands of years.


And some lines have been selectively bred to be more civil and have more natural aggression. It doesn't take to many generators of dogs to have this be a genetic trait in the lines. 

btw...don't tell my male that GSD's aren't water dogs. LOL


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> btw...don't tell my male that GSD's aren't water dogs. LOL


Same - ALL of our GSDs have been water dogs!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just to point out that a well bred GSD should be aloof to strangers. It's in the standard. They shouldn't want to go socialize with everyone as adults. They should be neutral to strangers. My male is that. I can send him to "say hi" and he will go sniff and come back. Not a lot of interest in strangers. My female will bite just for fun if a stranger breaks her rules of engagement.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Same - ALL of our GSDs have been water dogs!


He's a lunatic. He jumped off a 6' high, eroded, creek bank when he was 5 months old. I was like "great...I'm going to have to jump down there and walk a mile out of this creek". Zero self preservation when it comes to bodies of water.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. That is genetic as well. Absolutely. But I think the two qualities go hand in hand. Dogs are more civil. Nerve is relevant. Genetics are genetics. Again - the Russian Fox study is relevant to your question. I would disagree that a GSD with low biddablity is superior to other breeds in willingness to work. I would disagree that any dog of any breed would be superior in that circumstance. I would also disagree that any dog will just want to please you. They do it because something is in if for them, and it may appear that they are doing it for you, but an independent creature is just that. My female doesn't work for me. She works because she thinks there is a tug hidden on my body. I taught her that interaction with me gets her what she wants - to bite things. My male would work for a piece of sand as long as it was coming from me. My female needs external motivators. My male just needs my attention and anything external is a bonus. Those traits were evident in both at 8 weeks old. Neither biddability or sociability are aspects you can isolate because to many other temperament/personality components are involved.



THIS! Be sure you are heeding the excellent advice on this thread. In some of your responses, I sense a good deal of intellectual acuity that is negated by a bit of wishful thinking. Stay focused on the facts that are being offered and your results will be much closer to what you want.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Besides aggression, a dog with very high prey drive can be difficult for less experienced people to raise and manage. For someone who nows how to use that type of prey drive to train a dog, it is an asset. There are working line pups in litters that are highly sociable, clear headed with good nerves and manageable prey drive. You just have to find the right breeder and breeding and hope you can trust the breeder. I was with someone last night who bought a dog from a well known breeder that a lot of people on this forum are probably familiar with. The dog has significant temperament issues and she would not do anything to compensate the buyer.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

German shepherds can have a range of socialness and still be aloof to strangers. . I’m not talking about labradors. Also dogs that have a high pack drive are very much into their people and family. The more suspicion a dog has the more watchful of others outside the circle he may be. Thresholds the higher the threshold the dog will be not as quick as to react. Socialization plays a big part of shaping what you have getting your pup accustomed to things you enjoy.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

That prey drive is a good point a high prey drive has its off leash challenges ot


Jax08 said:


> He's a lunatic. He jumped off a 6' high, eroded, creek bank when he was 5 months old. I was like "great...I'm going to have to jump down there and walk a mile out of this creek". Zero self preservation when it comes to bodies of water.


All of my German Shepherds love the water just as I do. Lol Luna climbed the pier and either fell or jumped on as the


Jax08 said:


> He's a lunatic. He jumped off a 6' high, eroded, creek bank when he was 5 months old. I was like "great...I'm going to have to jump down there and walk a mile out of this creek". Zero self preservation when it comes to bodies of water.


I love water dogs. No one can convince me that German shepherds do not have gills under all that fur Lol!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think the general statement that usually comes here applies. The best thing is to go out and meet some of these dogs so you can learn what what type it is you really want. You can also talk to the owners to see how they are on a regular basis. You could take two working lines on this forum that meet what you want, but see two very different dogs. Some of those differences are harder to put in words. For me anyway.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, there is absolutely no reason why a WGSL couldn't do everything you want a dog to do with you and potentially have less possibility for finding yourself with way too much dog.

I have a white shepherd who would probably be a great dog for you too, although he did go thru some reactive phases. We worked thru it and he has grown up to be a really great dog...trustworthy down to a tiny toddler taking his ball and trying to throw it. He will patiently wait for the ball to hit the ground and get it without bumping that toddler.

My old WL female would probably have grabbed the ball out of the kids hand and bitten it by accident in the process. She was very trustworthy not in drive but add a ball to the scene and I didnt trust her with kids. I never let a child play with her. 

Same dog in a working capacity had a child literally bounce a balloon off her head and she did not react. Very safe dog but different animal with ball or water.

My white dog has more than enough drive and ability to do any sports you'd want to do that aren't bite sports. He LOVES to train, he lives to get it right, he is an awesome competition dog.

There are definitely great non workingline dogs that may be wonderful for you and a little less octane.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Just to point out that a well bred GSD should be aloof to strangers. It's in the standard. They shouldn't want to go socialize with everyone as adults. They should be neutral to strangers. My male is that. I can send him to "say hi" and he will go sniff and come back. Not a lot of interest in strangers. My female will bite just for fun if a stranger breaks her rules of engagement.


Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I agree with the above. I'm trying to find the former and avoid the latter.

I am interested in lines that have _not_ been bred to be more civil and have more natural aggression. I do realize that the original litter in the thread is not for us. The conversation just evolved to a more general discussion on those traits. I do not know the norms of this forum, so apologies if this is better moved to a new thread. But if anyone has any recommendations for breeders to check out, I'd be grateful. I have already done a lot of research on breeders and have a spreadsheet of those that meet minimum requirements (regarding screenings, etc.). But I'd be particularly interested to know if there are breeders that would not be good fits because they tend to breed for natural aggression (please PM me in that case). Thanks all.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> btw...don't tell my male that GSD's aren't water dogs. LOL


Ha! My husband said he wanted to try to surf with our dog. We'll see how that goes...


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Heartandsoul said:


> I’m watching this thread as I’m a first timer with what was a crap shoot and I fouled up tons of times with him but, no one’s been hurt, I was dedicated and still am to his training although not perfect, a small percentage of my life has changed due to his “faults” one biggie, I won’t board him so trips with Dh alone aren’t happening but we were never vacationers anyway. and I pretty much take him everywhere with a modicum of constant awareness of his surroundings which has become muscle memory for me.
> 
> He is DA but even with that we were able to do scent work and trial successfully. It took work but I almost always found that work to be fun.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your kind words, and congratulations on your great dog!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Are you willing to ship? You might want to put your general location out and maybe there are breeders near you, or clubs for you to visit to see if there are dogs that you like there.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Jenny720 said:


> That prey drive is a good point a high prey drive has its off leash challenges ot
> Depends on the training you do and what type of bond you have with the dog. Ozzy has very high prey drive yet is off leash 90% of the time. He has never been allowed to chase anything yet sometimes his prey takes over but I can stop him in his tracks and he comes right back. It’s all about the type of dog you have and excellent training from the beginning. Having experience with high drive GSD is a plus.
> 
> All of my German Shepherds love the water just as I do. Lol Luna climbed the pier and either fell or jumped on as the
> ...


Yep my boy is insane for the water, well dock diving anyway.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

HapPup said:


> Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I agree with the above. I'm trying to find the former and avoid the latter.
> 
> I am interested in lines that have _not_ been bred to be more civil and have more natural aggression. I do realize that the original litter in the thread is not for us. The conversation just evolved to a more general discussion on those traits. I do not know the norms of this forum, so apologies if this is better moved to a new thread. But if anyone has any recommendations for breeders to check out, I'd be grateful. I have already done a lot of research on breeders and have a spreadsheet of those that meet minimum requirements (regarding screenings, etc.). But I'd be particularly interested to know if there are breeders that would not be good fits because they tend to breed for natural aggression (please PM me in that case). Thanks all.


yes, it’d be best to start your own thread with your location and the breeders you’re interested in so far. feel free to reference or link to this thread if you feel it’d be helpful....


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Are you willing to ship? You might want to put your general location out and maybe there are breeders near you, or clubs for you to visit to see if there are dogs that you like there.


I am in California and willing to travel for my pup, and even ship. I am in southern California.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

HapPup said:


> I am in California and willing to travel for my pup, and even ship. I am in southern California.


in that case, just go get him!!!! since i can’t have him 😭😭😭


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fodder said:


> in that case, just go get him!!!! since i can’t have him 😭😭😭


oh my <3 <3 <3


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> oh my <3 <3 <3


i know!!! darn cat...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My bias is stay away from show lines or lines bred for color. I think you can find a good working line pup if you network and do some research. You want a “sporty” dog that is not extreme in prey with good nerves and low risk of health problems. You can PM me and I will try to steer you in that direction if you are interested in that type of dog, but I am limited in that, that is not the type of dog I am that familiar with, but I can check my brain bank. You also probably don’t want a GSD that is a wuss but has a higher threshold for aggression. If you are not planning on doing bite work, you don’t need a dog that can fight a man and win, but a dog that will display confident, defensive aggressive posturing to a fairly overt threat which will usually deter the threat.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I will say keep your options open and look at show lines. They may be exactly what you want. There are many showline breeders that breed for more then just color. I have a asl Max and Luna a wgsl. Great fun dogs. Max a super sponge with learning, protective and clear headed. He really matured into one awesome dog. Kids come with commotion especially young visitors the dogs are phenomenal with them. Max a higher prey drive I had to stepped up my off leash training and for the better.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

HapPup said:


> Specifically about this litter. They have been recently bred and I am deciding whether to sign up for the waitlist.


Since its a repeat breeding, did you contact Randy and ask her what the first litter produced and maybe what type of owners the pups went to? She doesn't breed stupid, over the top, and unmanageable dogs from what I've ever seen.


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Since its a repeat breeding, did you contact Randy and ask her what the first litter produced and maybe what type of owners the pups went to? She doesn't breed stupid, over the top, and unmanageable dogs from what I've ever seen.


I did, thank you. The breeding had just occurred and she also has a long waitlist. We had an initial conversation on more general aspects, and it indeed seems that she does not breed stupid.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

HapPup said:


> I did, thank you. The breeding had just occurred and she also has a long waitlist. We had an initial conversation on more general aspects, and it indeed seems that she does not breed stupid.


Did she have any recommendations for you? Other breedings? What did she think about this breeding for you?


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## HapPup (Dec 1, 2020)

We didn't get that far. I made initial screening calls to learn about her breeding philosophy, etc.


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