# aggression towards me when putting pressure on puppy



## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Hi all, I have an 11 month old working line pup that has been giving me serious attitude since I got him back in April. I do go to an experienced trainer pretty much every Sunday. For the most part he is a pretty good pup, about 90% of the time. But when he sees something he wants to go after and gets worked up (such as the cat, or jumping up and play biting my husband or employee) and I try to correct him he immediately starts snarling, drooling and aggressively going after his leash. I try to grab the leash as close to his collar as I can and hold him off his front legs with my arm out stretched so he can't get to my arm or bite me. He refuses to let go of the leash and starts pulling extremely hard. He gets very serious about this and at some point I am waiting for him to bite me. He has also started getting an aggressive stance with me (stiff body, hair and tail up, growling with bared teeth) when he has a chew toy and I come close to him, or get close to him when he is eating. I do not give in to him and basically just take it away from him and put him in his crate till he settles down. I do engage play sessions with him with a ball or tug and he is good with the out for the most part, and then. I have also used an e-collar on him (advice from the trainer) that worked for the most part, till he decides he doesn't want to deal with that then starts going after the leash again. He is also having bouts of food aggression with me. I do obedience training with him pretty much every day. If I have a ball, or a treat, he is perfect. Without the ball or treat he starts nipping at me. My husband really doesn't do much with him so he treats me way different than he does my husband. My husband is getting tired of him always biting and jumping on him whenever he tries to pet him. I also use a prong collar on him. He is the toughest pup I have ever dealt with. But then again he is my first working line, male pup. My husband said he wants to talk to me about possibly returning him to the breeder if I can't get him under control. Any advice?????


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ha ha. Man are you in over your head. First of all. If you have a trainer can that trainer even get that dog under control? If not you need a new trainer. Where did the dog come back from? Also where are you from?


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Yeah, the trainer can get him under control after chocking him up with a dominate collar. In fact he went after the trainer the first couple of times he tried chocking him up but eventually when he ran out of air he gave in and started doing what he asked of him. The trainer is the breeder I got him from and has many, many years experience with training working line shepherds. That is what he breeds and shows. In my opinion he is a very good, qualified trainer for this type of dog. I'm sure he would be able to get him under control without any problem, but I am the one that needs to figure out how to get him under control, lol. I am really attached to this guy, and when he is being behaved he is a nice dog. But man, when I try to get him to do something he doesn't want to do he gets really amped up. I'm feeling like I may not be the right handler for this boy. That maybe someone with way more experience with this type of dog would be a better fit. He would make an awesome police K9. You could beat him over the head with a bat and he would still come after you, lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"He has also started getting an aggressive stance with me (stiff body, hair and tail up, growling with bared teeth)"

Bite waiting to happen .


"He would make an awesome police K9. "

Not so fast here . A LE PD k9 needs to take pressure from all sides . 

I wouldn't pin this dogs behaviour as being typical of working lines -- something is wrong .

I sure would love to have a look at this guys pedigree . This dog is still young so this might be pretty basic to his
genetics .

Part of dog ownership should include pleasure and the feeling of having a canine partner , companion .

This dog sounds like a ticking time bomb . 

Not the dog for you .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hard to say what is causing it exactly. I know a few really really nice working dogs that will do stuff like that if you try to punish or correct them in a confrontational manner. If there is a fight perceived they will rise to the occasion regardless of where it comes from. The resource guarding thing is genetic but wouldn't continue unless the training to get rid of it was bad or non existent. The leash aggression thing could be a learned behavior too. Would have to see the dog to know for sure. I would put my money on improper training. You are for sure not ready for a dog like that though.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote
"Yeah, the trainer can get him under control after chocking him up with a dominate collar. In fact he went after the trainer the first couple of times he tried chocking him up but eventually when he ran out of air he gave in and started doing what he asked of him. The trainer is the breeder I got him from and has many, many years experience with training working line shepherds. That is what he breeds and shows."

good training? needs another bag of tricks.

Animal rights and Peta would love to get their hands on this .


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I have no wisdom to offer, just a comment - it seems that the more I read and listen and learn from experienced breeders and trainers, the more I feel genetics is key. Absolutely key. Had you met or interacted with the parents of your pup before getting him?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*He would make an awesome police K9. You could beat him over the head with a bat and he would still come after you, lol*

I'm not so sure about this, I would probably disagree. Aggression is only thing I test when looking for a LE K-9. Strong nerves, stable temperament and high drives are really important. Handler aggression is overrated, IMHO. Handler aggressive dogs do not run faster, bite harder or search better than a clear headed dog. To deal with all the issues that the OP is having, one needs to be a strong, skilled, knowledgeable, experienced handler and very patient. I agree, the trainer needs a bigger bag of tricks or tool box to deal with this. Hanging a dog with a "dominant dog collar" only goes so far. There are many other issues that need to be dealt with. Owning, handling, working or living with a dog like this is a big PITA. 

I'm handling and working a dog currently that has some leash reactivity and has bit at least 6 handlers or folks before I got him. This dog has some outstanding qualities for a Police K-9 with the right handler. He is an older dog and came to me with some issues, I have worked for about 6 months to correct this. I have worked out the leash aggression and handler aggression and I love this dog. But, he has never squared up on me and growled. That would only happen once. Fortunately, as Bailiff correctly states, the leash aggression is a learned behavior and you are looking at things getting way worse before they get better, in your case. 

I would avoid the prong collar, that is going to get you bit. 

What are the lines or pedigree on this dog? I'm thinking the dog is not truly a "working line dog," but I could be wrong.

I do agree that the OP is in over their head and needs to work with a different trainer to get an objective perspective on this dog's behavior. I would consider returning the dog. It is a hard decision but he may not eb the right fit for you and your family.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Again, I really wish people wouldn't advise people to make decisions like that without seeing the dog or the peoples interaction with the dog. Go get the dog evaluated in person by a trainer (not the breeder) who knows what they are doing with strong dogs, and go from there.

I'm regularly seeing dogs that vets, vet behaviorists, possie only trainers, and whoever are saying should be put down/gotten rid of that can easily be turned around when you find someone knowledgeable that can guide them.

Not saying there aren't dogs out there that need to be put out of our misery, or situations where the best decision is to just straight up rehome the dog but it usually isn't that.

Need to see the dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

A*gain, I really wish people wouldn't advise people to make decisions like that without seeing the dog or the peoples interaction with the dog.*

Advise people to make decisions like what? Get a different trainer to evaluate the dog? Or, maybe the dog isn't the right fit for this family? Based on what the OP has written and described, they are in over their heads. They need help and with the right person advising them and assisting them the dog could potentially be great. However, the road they are traveling is going to be a very rough one with this dog unless they change things up quickly. 

I have never advocated putting a dog down, it's not what I think is needed here. But, rehoming with the right person may be an option before this goes to far and the dog is really a mess.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "What are the lines or pedigree on this dog? I'm thinking the dog is not truly a "working line dog," but I could be wrong."

I would love to know the pedigree .

He may be the end result of someone taking a totally unbalanced working line pedigree which focuses and heavily line breeds on some dogs for "hot" exaggerated drives thinking more is better - when it is not and often counterproductive.

We've seen pedigrees offered by those looking at a litter with thoughts to purchasing a pup for pet or sport universally given bad reviews by those that even have one scintilla of working pedigree knowledge.

Or


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

Sounds similar to my experience with my dog Ryker. First working line GSD, a bit too much dog at the time, in over my head, and attempting to physically dominate the dog (because that myth persists among many long-time GSD people). Once I actually learned more about training and dog behavior, things changed and now we get along a *lot* better.

I hesitate to advise about most of this without actually seeing it, but I can say that with the resource guarding (growling over food and chew toys), it's only going to get worse if you keep taking the items away. This was a big problem that I caused with Ryker as well. I really would find another trainer. With the methods your current trainer/breeder has you using, it's not going to get better.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

TwoBigEars said:


> Sounds similar to my experience with my dog Ryker. First working line GSD, a bit too much dog at the time, in over my head, and attempting to physically dominate the dog (because that myth persists among many long-time GSD people). Once I actually learned more about training and dog behavior, things changed and now we get along a *lot* better.
> 
> I hesitate to advise about most of this without actually seeing it, but I* can say that with the resource guarding (growling over food and chew toys), it's only going to get worse if you keep taking the items away.* This was a big problem that I caused with Ryker as well. I really would find another trainer. With the methods your current trainer/breeder has you using, it's not going to get better.


I agree with this 100 percent. I don't have near the experience, as those that have already given you advice. I do, however, know about resource guarding. It is common sense, actually. It is about mutual trust and respect. My dog, Natty Boh, was a terrible resource guarder. He was a shelter pup and I was already his second home.

Never take. Always trade. I hand fed Boh every meal and made him do obedience for every bit. He is 4 years old now. Before he gets his bowl, he must touch my hand. I put his bowl down and leave him alone. He doesn't growl, or stiffen, even if I am in close proximity. I would never take his bowl back. Why? He resource guards because he 'thinks' I am going to take his stuff. If I take it, I have just proved him right. Now, he no longer trusts me. It took constant desensitizing for him to learn that he could trust me to not take his things.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Best to find a good trainer to work with you or return the dog to the breeder.

I wouldn't fool around with "putting pressure" on him anymore until you work with a trainer who shows you how to deal with this. If you correct or train a dog in a confrontational way, some dogs will respond with fight. It's not uncommon, and doesn't necessarily mean the dog is poorly bred or excessively aggressive. 

Hanging a dog is a go-to for some trainers, I don't like it much in general. If a dog is trying to rip your face off and you have no choice, sure. But it's sort of a useless deal, there are better ways to correct and teach a dog not to bite the leash, etc. 

Here's an example. If I am playing tug with my malinois, I can kick her (gently), throw stuff at her, stroke her on the side of her body or head, make loud noises, shout nonsense. All this makes her fight more and tug harder. She loves that stuff. To be clear, I am not hurting her. But she is trained, so one quiet, calm "out" and she releases. 

My point is, stuff I do to rev her up just for the game, is fine because she knows the rules of the game. And she knows to target the tug only, too. That's important. But if she wasn't trained in the rules, all the stuff perhaps a person might do to get a dog to release the tug (or leash in the OP's case) just amps the dog up. Then the dog keeps winning and continues to have fun with the tug and you've got yourself a situation. 

It sounds like the OP's dog discovered early on that he has the power to get his human to do what he wants- in this case tug on the leash, or fight over food, or what-have-you. So why not keep doing it. It's rewarding for the dog.

This isn't supposed to be training advice for the OP. Find a good trainer, get the dog evaluated, and decide if you are up for doing what it will take. Then go from there. Returning the dog to the breeder is a fine option, but if you (OP) are interested in keeping the dog, go get an evaluation from a good trainer first. 

This board can probably help you locate an experienced and good trainer in your area.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Thank you all for the wonderful advice. I really don't have anyone else, other than the trainer, to talk to about this issue so I am grateful to hear opinions from others that have way more experience than myself with a working line. 

Muskeg.....I understand everything that you are telling me, and it is very good advice Could you please give me some advice on how to handle the situation when my pup gets ampt up when I have him on a leash. He will see my husband, my employee, the cat, or whatever and want to get to them so he starts with the really hard pulling. I then try to correct him by giving him the heel command and a leash correction. This is when the fight starts. I can almost always get him to ignore anything going on around him, and focus on me, as long as I have a ball with me (the ball is his all time favorite toy) but there are times when I am just taking him out to go potty and do not have the ball with me. This also happens after I have done obedience with him and reward him with his ball. When I try to get him to "out" his ball and put it away he becomes aggressive with the ball. 

As for the food aggression I have tried hand feeding him, as well as sitting on the floor with his food bowl in my lap, letting him eat out of his bowl never trying to take it from him. It is apparent to me this has become a trust issue. Should I just ignore him and let him growl when I walk by, or maybe start feeding him outside where he can be by himself? To me that almost seems like he is getting his way and almost encouraging him to keep up with the growling rather than correcting him for his bad behaviour?

I really am attached to this boy, and having lost 3 dogs in the past three yrs it is hard for me to think about giving him back, it's like losing another dog. I am definately letting my heart do the decision making for me on this one vs my brain:-( We own a business that is causing extreme stress for my husband and I right now and my husband just wants to have a calm, relaxing home environment at the end of the day. Instead he gets jumped on, used as a chew toy (his words) and watches me get growled and snarled at when I try to correct the issue or feed the dog. He really misses, and wants, another female show line like we just lost a few months ago, something a bit calmer and sweeter. I keep hearing from the others in the class (all working line dogs pretty much from this same breeder) to not give up. That they all went through this, and in another year or so if I keep working with him I will love him. Of course they have been training and trialing dogs for many years, unlike me that just wants a trained protection/companion dog.We quit doing any kind of protection work with him a couple of months ago due to his attitude till I can get a handle on him obedience wise. This is really tough for me because I want what is best for my pup, and I feel like I may not be the right handler for him, and as I stated 95% of the time he is a pretty good boy. But my husband is worried that his leash/toy/food aggression is going to get me bit pretty good one of these days. Having had various breeds of dogs over the past 35+ yrs (including Rotties and GSD's) this is a first for me and I have to say it makes me feel like a failure. Also I know if I give him back and I see someone else handling him, and he does great I am REALLY going to feel like a failure. So confused right now :-(


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm sorry that I am unable to answer your questions and concerns. There are people here who can read and evaluate a pedigree, if you were interested in that. If you are interested in finding a trainer to better evaluate your dog, there are people here who can help you. If you provide your general location, people will try to point you in the right direction of a good trainer.

The only thing I feel adequate to address is feeding. Do you free feed? If so, stop. If not, it should not take the dog more than a minute or two to eat his food. Put his bowl down and walk away. You should not have to walk past your dog in the few minutes he is eating. If you don't go near him. He has no reason to growl. I did not walk by my dog, when I was in the process of desensitizing him. I can walk past him now, because I never, ever touch his bowl, while he is eating. He ignores me now. I am not an issue.

If it makes your more comfortable to feed him alone, do so. He can eat in his crate or outside. If you prefer to do that, until you can have your dog better evaluated, that is fine. You shouldn't put yourself in a situation where you do not feel safe. Personally, I would not sit on the floor and feed him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I wouldn't be sitting on the floor with the bowl in my lap !
That makes you very vulnerable . A dog who is having issues over food and you are putting
him under SOCIAL pressure to come into your zone (stress) and your face is an effortless
bite target.

If I recall you haven't had the dog for a long period of time so there is still a lot of trust issue to iron out.


have the dog present while you prepare his food . It is YOURs . No tidbits , no teasing .
He can't crowd or push you - have him wait before he is allowed to eat it . It is YOURs until
it is HIS . Once you give it - "there you go - take it - good guy" in calm voice and then you
leave him along to eat in peace and quiet . No competition .

when he is finished you call him to you - and praise . End on a good note


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You said he is eleven months old and you stopped protection training with him a couple of months ago. Was he fully obedience trained before you started protection training? What type of protection training were you doing?


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

Sparky BV said:


> As for the food aggression I have tried hand feeding him, as well as sitting on the floor with his food bowl in my lap, letting him eat out of his bowl never trying to take it from him. It is apparent to me this has become a trust issue. Should I just ignore him and let him growl when I walk by, or maybe start feeding him outside where he can be by himself? To me that almost seems like he is getting his way and almost encouraging him to keep up with the growling rather than correcting him for his bad behaviour?


It will not go away if you ignore it, and will likely get worse. Jean Donaldson's book "Mine!" is very informative on resource guarding and contains detailed protocols for dealing with it. But at its simplest, you basically toss/drop some good treats when you walk by as your dog is eating from his bowl. This changes the expectation from "human near food = potential threat" to "human near food = good". Ideally you can start this at a far enough distance that he doesn't growl, and get closer over the sessions, but that may not be possible depending on how much space you have. If he happens to growl or show a reaction, don't even worry about it, don't make a big fuss or even say much, just drop the treats anyway.

This is NOT rewarding the growling!! Some people will say it is, but it's not. If you want the fancy science, it's creating a happy Conditioned Emotional Response to your approach while he's eating, not operantly conditioning growling. It will take time and many repetitions (though just do 1-3 reps of treat drops per meal, avoid pestering the dog by constantly walking by and dropping treats) and you'll also need to do maintenance sessions once the guarding seems gone, but it will get better. I also tried all the hand-feeding, holding Ryker's bowl, etc but honestly all of that is management and it doesn't change the dog's underlying emotion like the treat dropping does.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Thank you Stevenzachsmom, your advice is greatly appreciated. I do not free feed, I will do as you have suggested and see if that helps. As for the pedigree, I tried to attach the file with his father and mothers pedigree by dragging and dropping the file but I couldn't get it to work. Not very computer savvy, so then I tried to paste it into a msg and that didn't work out so well either, lol. 

Maxtmill.....yes I have met his father and he is a wonderful, happy, friendly dog. Which my boy is for the majority of the time.I am sure my boy will be if I, or someone else, trains him properly. However, the mother died during the birth so I never got to meet her. I trust this breeder/trainer whole heartedly. I have seen many of his dogs and they have all been good dogs. I am getting the feeling that maybe I am just not ready for a dog like this with my limited training time. Most of the dogs I see in class are there for training at least 2x per week and the owners have trained numerous dogs. They are a very supportive group. I think I am the one having the issues! In fact...I know I am the one having the issues, lol. With the proper training this boy could definately win some titles.

Carmspack....I have been working with this breeder for almost 2 yrs and I do know they have a very good reputation for breeding, solid, healthy working line GSD's for many, many years. The father was Back Slowakia Idol that was sired by V HANK VOM WEINBERGBLICK, which apparently was an outstanding dog.

Bailiff.....I will also head your advice as well!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Why did you do protection work with a dog that isn't suited for it when you are not experienced with it? One of my earlier dogs became very aggressive toward me after several years. I went back and wrote down every thing that led up to it and realized on my own that I had intended to do one thing (stop the dog from barking) and ended rewarding something else (snarling at me). I immediately stopped that training, because it wasn't working, and got the dog back into obedience. This was not a GSD, it was a smaller type breed that is never aggressive. When I was able to isolate the problem, the aggression stopped. Otherwise, I would have given the dog up at age four without thinking twice. Having owned a rescued GSD that needed to be managed but was never aggressive with my family, only strangers, I would not ever do that again. Since owning that earlier dog, I've never had a dog show any aggression toward me because I don't put myself or the dog in a position to allow it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My vote is yes, feed the dog outside or somewhere that he does not practice growling at you or threatening you until you get a reasonable plan for dealing with the resource guarding. Unless outside is not fenced and some other person might happen upon this dog while it is eating?


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## armbrusteri (Jul 16, 2016)

It sounds like your dog's aggression is triggered by corrections and by meddling with his food, both of which are avoidable/changeable things. I really think you should have a trainer who is not his breeder look at the dog. Even though you clearly respect the breeder/trainer, his methods are simply not working for you - you need a different toolset than the one he is providing you.

If you are at the point where you are considering getting rid of the dog, what harm is there in seeking a second trainer's opinion?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is a major , significant piece of information that goes into the makeup of this dog's temperament 

quote OP "However, the mother died during the birth ."

who was the dam ? (pedigree)

how was this dog fostered out to a surrogate dam?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I was hoping a breeder would chime in on the impact of the mother dying. Orphan foals can be a nightmare.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I was hoping a breeder would chime in on the impact of the mother dying. Orphan foals can be a nightmare.



Hard to say without knowing if the litter was fostered to another dam and raised by her, was bottled fed alone or along with the rest of the litter.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

giving a pedigree of the sire does not give enough information .

I would go so far to say that the information on the dam is more important as the fetus experiences her internal nervous state .


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## dogloveuk345 (Sep 13, 2016)

is he crated?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

But isn't that chicken already out of the coop? Analyzing pedigree at this point isn't so useful for the OP, I'd think. 

If she wants to keep the dog, the OP should best seek a second trainer's input, and deal with the dog (of whatever pedigree) in front of her. 

While I agree the death of the dam might be significant, the dog is what the dog is, and that is what the OP has to deal with, and that is best evaluated in person, not through pedigrees. To me, the dog sounds fairly typical, for a dog without boundaries, and an inexperienced or possibly weaker owner. He also may be under-exercised. But again, someone actually needs to see and interact with the dog to actually give recommendations. 

Doing basic bite work is fairly common with young pups destined for IPO or similar. Nothing the OP has posted makes me think that her dog is not suited for protection sports, but that he needs better handling. At the club there was a very nice shepherd with a weak handler, who was banned from bite work until he got under control and got his BH. Not a bad dog, but just a weak handler. That's not real uncommon. But again, this is all rather useless over the internet. Obviously an in-person evaluation is necessary. 

OP- not trying to make you feel bad. Some dogs are much harder to handle. Does anyone at your club have suggestions?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sparky- not sure I can help, but for a start, what kind of corrections are you giving your dog?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah muskeg I understand where you are coming from - but I like to look at pedigrees .

It will tell you whether you will be fighting "Nature" or compensating for "Nurture".

Some dogs just are . They can be genetically shy, difficult , angry , anti social, hyper suspicious., (or the opposite of each one of these )
All the effort isn't going to change things much , so you need to prepare yourself to handler this for
the rest of the dogs days.

The OP has already said that this is fairly typical of the breeder , the type he likes, which is neither here nor there as long as the right home and handler is found for that dog. , which may not be the OP .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A few thoughts. An ecollar should have stopped all that nonsense, so the fact that the dog decided he wasn't going to respond, tells me it's not being used properly. I also question why this breeder would sell such a challenging dog to someone new to PP training and WL. It sounds like a dog for an already experienced owner.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A pedigree IS very important information if we cannot see the dog in person! Some aggression is inherited, some created, and some a combination of both. Example: If your dog was linebred on Crok very closely, I could unequivocally tell you that you are over your head without my seeing the dog. Also, the lack of the dam raising the puppy could be very very important to what he is in relationship to people or other dogs. Ideally, I would say get a second opinion from experienced person besides the breeder. The issue right now isn't whether he is a good dog, but rather whether he is a good dog for you with your skills and abilities.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Searched and looks like this is the pedigree:

Litter from Back Slowakia Idol and Xara z Holykova

Dam's name from here (under 'Past Dogs')
German Shepherd Dog, True Haus Kennels


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

That is a working line pedigree for sure.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@mycobraracr

Isn't this a kennel you are personally familiar with? Any insight for the OP?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> @mycobraracr
> 
> Isn't this a kennel you are personally familiar with? Any insight for the OP?



Yes I know the kennel. I have a strong suspicion that I know the OP and her previous dog as well. OP this is Jeremy F. (SDA Decoy). The dog world is filled with enough drama, I can't touch this one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> A pedigree IS very important information if we cannot see the dog in person! Some aggression is inherited, some created, and some a combination of both. Example: If your dog was linebred on Crok very closely, I could unequivocally tell you that you are over your head without my seeing the dog. Also, the lack of the dam raising the puppy could be very very important to what he is in relationship to people or other dogs. Ideally, I would say get a second opinion from experienced person besides the breeder. The issue right now isn't whether he is a good dog, but rather whether he is a good dog for you with your skills and abilities.


Thank you Cliff !


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ohh Kay. If someone familiar with this kennel isn't interested in commenting, I'll take that as a sign to step off. 

Can't help over the internet for this type of issue anyway.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Very nice pedigree / strong breeding.

He sounds like an **** how much of it is legitimate social aggression / rank drive vs learned protest behaviour is impossible to see without at least some video.

With this type of dog you have to train smart. He loses all freedom and decision making ability. When you do the obedience set yourself up to win and always make sure you do. Muzzles and back ties will help. Make your obedience firm but fair. If you are using tools like a prong or e collar you better have very good timing.
A trainer that knows how to train this type of dog vs simply overpowering him is what you need.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Ohh Kay. If someone familiar with this kennel isn't interested in commenting, I'll take that as a sign to step off.
> 
> Can't help over the internet for this type of issue anyway.


I agree. There is more to this than we are reading.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree. There is more to this than we are reading.


Or maybe, Jeremy just doesn't want to be involved in an online discussion regarding people he knows that may cause issues in real life because the working world can have a LOT of drama in it?? It's not necessarily anything bad.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Or maybe, Jeremy just doesn't want to be involved in an online discussion regarding people he knows that may cause issues in real life because the working world can have a LOT of drama in it?? It's not necessarily anything bad.



This is basically it. I was a training decoy for this club/kennel. This is how I know the OP we used to train together. I now have my own club 30 minutes away. This Club and I work very hard to promote and grow SDA, we have a good working relationship. Out of respect for them I would rather not discuss them on an internet forum where things can get taken out of context, they are not here to defend themselves and have something get back to them that I "said" on the interenet that wasn't meant the way someone may have taken it. 


Also, I do know the OP. I worked her previous dog. She is very sweet and dedicated. We all want to get second opinions sometimes. I myself have learned a lot from this forum and still PM certain people for advice, share video and critique videos for one another. That's why we are here. I don't know any more about this particular dog than what was posted in this thread. I think I met him when he was about 8 weeks old, but other than the facebook posts about him, I know nothing. So again, it's not anything good or bad, I'd just rather discuss this with the OP in person and not on the internet for the world to interpret the way they see fit. SDA has no drama and I'd like to keep it that way.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> This is basically it. I was a training decoy for this club/kennel. This is how I know the OP we used to train together. I now have my own club 30 minutes away. This Club and I work very hard to promote and grow SDA, we have a good working relationship. Out of respect for them I would rather not discuss them on an internet forum where things can get taken out of context, they are not here to defend themselves and have something get back to them that I "said" on the interenet that wasn't meant the way someone may have taken it.
> 
> 
> Also, I do know the OP. I worked her previous dog. She is very sweet and dedicated. We all want to get second opinions sometimes. I myself have learned a lot from this forum and still PM certain people for advice, share video and critique videos for one another. That's why we are here. I don't know any more about this particular dog than what was posted in this thread. I think I met him when he was about 8 weeks old, but other than the facebook posts about him, I know nothing. So again, it's not anything good or bad, I'd just rather discuss this with the OP in person and not on the internet for the world to interpret the way they see fit. SDA has no drama and I'd like to keep it that way.


That's exactly what I thought. It's interesting how a simple statement can have so much more read into it than was meant by the poster. When I see someone posting a problem on this forum, I want to help if I can. But when I also know there is more behind it than a simple post can explain, I want to know when to back off. I wasn't implying anything from your post. I hope you realize that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Or maybe, Jeremy just doesn't want to be involved in an online discussion regarding people he knows that may cause issues in real life because the working world can have a LOT of drama in it?? It's not necessarily anything bad.


I didn't say there was anything bad, only that there was more information than we have. Drama starts when we misunderstand.


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