# Advice about prong collar, neutering and a reactive dog



## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

I need some advice please. Kaiser is 11 months, he's been trained with the desensitization/positive reinforcement method which mostly works except with men. Not all men just most. Last week he lunged at a man and attempted to bite him. He goes to the dog park daily, with training he is able to participate with other dogs safely. He greets men at the park no problem. Some separation anxiety started a few months ago and it's a work in progress. The whining and screaming (yes screaming) as been curbed with an e-collar. I must say adolescent sucks!

I think part of the problem is I stopped taking him on long walks since he goes to the dog park 2x a day. As a puppy he was exposed to many different experiences to make him comfortable with sounds, people and situations. I've been inconsistent and recognize my responsibility in our problem

The prong collar would only be to train him to not lunge, I'll use desensitization to teach him to be less reactive. He is currently wearing a Sense-ation harness but pulls sideways which throws me off especially when icy. I won't use a choke collar. The lunging has to stop because once full grown there will be no way to stop him. Also he has a high prey drive and we live in a national park.

Do you think a prong collar would be a solution to the lunging? 

He is being neutered next week even though I wanted to wait until he was older. And I've attended specialized training for reactive dogs as my previous was a rescue who was aggressive with other dogs. 

Thank in advance. :grin2:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

J&K said:


> I need some advice please. Kaiser is 11 months, he's been trained with the desensitization/positive reinforcement method which mostly works except with men. Not all men just most. Last week he lunged at a man and attempted to bite him. He goes to the dog park daily, with training he is able to participate with other dogs safely. He greets men at the park no problem. Some separation anxiety started a few months ago and it's a work in progress. The whining and screaming (yes screaming) as been curbed with an e-collar. I must say adolescent sucks!
> 
> I think part of the problem is I stopped taking him on long walks since he goes to the dog park 2x a day. As a puppy he was exposed to many different experiences to make him comfortable with sounds, people and situations. I've been inconsistent and recognize my responsibility in our problem
> 
> ...


I'd suggest a dominant dog collar. It's been recommended to me for some issues I'm having. A prong can cause conflict, and can add to some of the anxiety he's having with men. If he's keying up and you use a prong, he's going to associate men with the correction. 
What do you mean that he's showing some separation anxiety? Is it the typical gsd, where if you leave the room, he sits by the door and waits? Or is he losing his mind, eating walls? Huge difference. To me, seperation anxiety is an excuse for a dog not being ready to be left alone safely. Unless it's true seperation anxiety. Kind of like how ocd, and add are used. They are true diagnosis, but people use them to as a catch all. 
Why are you moving his neutering up? Does he have a health issue? I'd want to keep the testosterone to help development until he was fully grown mentally and physically. Neutering is not a cure all for behavior issues. In fact studies are showing that it can increase aggression. 
Just out of curiosity, what breed was your previous dog with dog aggression?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don’t know what desensitization/positive reinforcement is; but a dog lunging at a person on leash requires a correction. Also, if I had a dog with that behavior, I would not walk the dog in public on a harness until the lunging behavior is extinguished. I would use either pinch or choke collar for the public walks. I know some people are anti choke collars as some are anti pinch collars, but if the choke collar is only used on walks in public...then if it’s the best option then I don’t see the problem.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

J&K said:


> I need some advice please. Kaiser is 11 months, he's been trained with the desensitization/positive reinforcement method which mostly works except with men. Not all men just most. Last week he lunged at a man and attempted to bite him. He goes to the dog park daily, with training he is able to participate with other dogs safely. He greets men at the park no problem. Some separation anxiety started a few months ago and it's a work in progress. The whining and screaming (yes screaming) as been curbed with an e-collar. I must say adolescent sucks!
> 
> I think part of the problem is I stopped taking him on long walks since he goes to the dog park 2x a day. As a puppy he was exposed to many different experiences to make him comfortable with sounds, people and situations. I've been inconsistent and recognize my responsibility in our problem
> 
> ...


The prong alone isn't a solution. Training is the solution. The prong is the tool you'll use to communicate the training. Don't expect that you'll put a prong on and have a perfect dog. It can happen fast, but you need to look up the prong collar dance first of all. Teach the dog (before you EVER go out) that IT controls the pressure. You do this by going into a distraction free area, such as your yard or a large room or garage. You put the prong on, making sure it fits VERY snug (high and tight just under the jawline and behind the ears). It should not be able to wiggle around at all. It needs to stay high. Make this very rewarding because some dogs don't get it at first. Do it slowly, have lots of treats. Once it's on, you give the dog some leash and let it wander. You very gentle pull towards you, and the second the dog moves in your direction you praise it and release all leash pressure. This teaches the dog that coming to you releases the tension and that going away from you causes it. 

Again proper fit is critical. You can indeed hurt the dog as much as any other collar if the prong is too loose or rides too low on the neck.

You should not ever need more than a finger pop with a prong. If you can't get it done with a finger pop, it was introduced incorrectly or not enough time was spent doing it, and you need to go back to square one. Once you get that done though, start out doing figure eights at home. Do not go to a park, or a track, anywhere with distractions or temptations. Once you have him reliably walking in a heel or at least not pulling, you can slowly add distractions. Once you start building, if the dog reacts simply give it a quick correction. The goal for correction is to catch the behavior before it happens. There is ALWAYS a sign. For example you're walking, tail is up and wagging, ears are relaxed, jaw is open and the dog is panting. Once you see the body tense, the ears perk, the jaw closes and breathing pauses, correction. Break the dog's focus and get it on you. Praise and reward when it pays attention to you. if you wait too late or wait for the reaction, you've missed it and any corrections will only increase drive and further the problem. It's all about timing. You have to pay attention to the dog and everything around you.

There are a lot of good videos on YouTube on how to properly use a prong. But don't worry about naysayers. The prong is far more humane than a flat buckle collar, a martingale, a head halter or the type of harness you're using. It's designed specifically to NOT hurt the dog. It is a communication tool and gives feedback the dog understands and cannot ignore. The others not only don't communicate, but actively harm the dog once it goes into drive and can cause serious damage. But this also relies on the prong being fitted properly. It must be fitted properly. The dog may protest at first. You'll find some will, because again, they cannot ignore feedback anymore. It may want to go check out that bush over there and it knows it can't. That'll pass. It's not in pain, it's under control. It wants to focus on other things but now must focus on you. So bring rewards and give lots of praise. Make yourself the funnest thing in the world. The dog deserves to have fun, so since it now can only focus on you, you're the source!

Edit: Also, you don't need to neuter for this. Neutering will NOT change his personality. Any problems that exist pre neuter or pre spay will still exist after. Behavior issues require correction and training. It's not a medical thing. So if you want to wait until he's older, wait.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I wonder if there isn't a bit of tension feeding down the leash from you due to your experiences with your past dog. That could be part of your problem.

Harnesses are not for dogs with lunging or aggressive behaviors. You need to have control of this problem with your dog and a harness will not provide it. Your primary purpose in this situation is to keep others safe. 

I also wonder why you are moving up your neutering date. If it is to address this issue, it just may backfire on you. Sometimes it is of benefit to just let a dog mature out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NerdicEclipse said:


> Again proper fit is critical. You can indeed hurt the dog as much as any other collar if the prong is too loose or rides too low on the neck.


Do you have more information you can share about this? TIA


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you have more information you can share about this? TIA


Sure. The reason prong collars are such effective communicators is that they are intended to fit tightly and high on the neck. This allows feedback that the dog can't ignore. You can literally issue a small finger pop, a flick of the fingers, and the dog will immediately alert to you and respond. No pain, no force. This area of the dog's neck isn't as tough and you need very minimal input to interrupt the reactive mindset and focus the dog back on the task at hand.

What happens with the prong when it rides lower, is that it gets to the thicker part of the hide. The dog can ignore feedback and you have to get rougher and rougher with input to communicate that increases exponentially the higher the dog's drive becomes. You go from having to issue a finger flick to having to crank on the leash like you're trying to pull down a tree. You're not going to penetrate the skin but you're going to cause bruising and tenderness. And I'd assume depending on the situation and strength of the dog, you could probably cause abrasions.

When the prong is too loose, large skin folds can actually get between the prongs and you can pinch the dog horribly. While again, it's not going to cause permanent damage, it unnecessarily causes pain. At that point you might as well be crushing their windpipe with a flat buckle or snapping their neck with a head halter.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't 100% get on board at all with the concept that the dog will "relate the correction" to anything, so long as the timing of the correction is done right. And honestly, if the dog does relate to the correction under terms that they should not react in order to avoid being corrected, then thats exactly what I would want to accomplish. That said, I have used both a prong, dominant dog collar, and e collar among other tools to curb aggressive lunging. First and foremost, if he is attempting to bite people, he needs to be out of a harness, into a correction collar, and muzzle trained. At this point, he is going to hurt someone in public without them.

Where are you located? People may be able to suggest good training resources.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

GatorDog said:


> I don't 100% get on board at all with the concept that the dog will "relate the correction" to anything, so long as the timing of the correction is done right. And honestly, if the dog does relate to the correction under terms that they should not react in order to avoid being corrected, then thats exactly what I would want to accomplish. That said, I have used both a prong, dominant dog collar, and e collar among other tools to curb aggressive lunging. First and foremost, if he is attempting to bite people, he needs to be out of a harness, into a correction collar, and muzzle trained. At this point, he is going to hurt someone in public without them.
> 
> Where are you located? People may be able to suggest good training resources.


This. I hear people say all the time that if you use a prong, remote collar or whatever to correct a bad behavior that it will make it worse and will make the dog afraid of you. Absolutely untrue. Demonstrably untrue.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

He loses it. The moment he sees me brushing my teeth he starts acting up. He tries to stop me from putting on my shoes, jumps up, barks near my face, paws, wails and lays in front of the door. I started training with an e-collar and positive reinforcement a few weeks ago with success. He'd do all these annoying things when we are getting ready to go out together, now he sits, waits and is quiet. But if I take him to the bathroom then leave him behind he will scratch the door and scream or lay down quietly. I'm currently staying with my son while he recovers from an injury, if I was in my own home, I'd let him learn to self sooth. I've been using the car to let him work out his anxiousness because he needs to learn to work it out himself. Sometimes I think the behavior is more a temper tantrum than anxiety. 

I'm having him neutered because I hoped it would improve some of his behavior, he was a model puppy until puberty. I really want to wait until he 2. 

I considered the dominant collar but worry he will strangle himself when he lunges. I only want to use it as a training tool. My previous dog was a German Shepherd. Kaiser is my third GS and my first puppy in 15 years.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

NerdicEclipse Thanks for the great advice. I'll check out YouTube to expand on your advice. He does heel nicely until a man gets within our proximity. I truly believe the prong collar will be a great training tool to incorporate with positive reinforcement and desensitization. He's my first GS puppy in 15 years and it's not like riding a bike.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> I don't 100% get on board at all with the concept that the dog will "relate the correction" to anything, so long as the timing of the correction is done right. And honestly, if the dog does relate to the correction under terms that they should not react in order to avoid being corrected, then thats exactly what I would want to accomplish. That said, I have used both a prong, dominant dog collar, and e collar among other tools to curb aggressive lunging. First and foremost, if he is attempting to bite people, he needs to be out of a harness, into a correction collar, and muzzle trained. At this point, he is going to hurt someone in public without them.
> 
> Where are you located? People may be able to suggest good training resources.


I agree. But my point was, that if the timing is not right, the correction could be correlated to the stimulus. Not the owner.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

GatorDog - I live two hours from the city, I do have a trainer I've used previously and will contact her if I can't resolve with myself. 


MineAreWorkingline - It's possible. Also, training him to behave at the dog park took a lot out of me, the patience required and consistency burned me out a bit. But he is great at the park so it was worth it. 

After everyone's advice I'm going to wait until he is 2 to have him neutered.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

J&K said:


> He loses it. The moment he sees me brushing my teeth he starts acting up. He tries to stop me from putting on my shoes, jumps up, barks near my face, paws, wails and lays in front of the door. I started training with an e-collar and positive reinforcement a few weeks ago with success. He'd do all these annoying things when we are getting ready to go out together, now he sits, waits and is quiet. But if I take him to the bathroom then leave him behind he will scratch the door and scream or lay down quietly. I'm currently staying with my son while he recovers from an injury, if I was in my own home, I'd let him learn to self sooth. I've been using the car to let him work out his anxiousness because he needs to learn to work it out himself. Sometimes I think the behavior is more a temper tantrum than anxiety.
> 
> I'm having him neutered because I hoped it would improve some of his behavior, he was a model puppy until puberty. I really want to wait until he 2.
> 
> I considered the dominant collar but worry he will strangle himself when he lunges. I only want to use it as a training tool. My previous dog was a German Shepherd. Kaiser is my third GS and my first puppy in 15 years.


Sounds more like adolescent behavior than major behavior issues. 
Positive only is great for shaping behaviors, but not when your dog decides he doesn't have to listen to you. 
I'd find a balanced trainer to help you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NerdicEclipse said:


> This. I hear people say all the time that if you use a prong, remote collar or whatever to correct a bad behavior that it will make it worse and will make the dog afraid of you. Absolutely untrue. Demonstrably untrue.


This may be true for those who know how to properly use these tools... those who understand timing, drives, and can properly tailor to the individual dog... 

But for many layman, an improper correction can in fact make the behavior worse. 

In bitework training naggy prong corrections are used to put the dog IN drive. With true genetic dog aggression cases a prong correction at the wrong point in the prey sequence will lead to an increase in the aggressive behavior. With fear-reactive dogs they can associate the correction with the stimulus. 

Seen it happen more times then I care to admit. 

This is why when dealing with aggression or reactivity a good in person trainer familiar with the breed and the training tools is absolutely vital.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Have you tried a bark collar for the wailing and screaming?


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> This may be true for those who know how to properly use these tools... those who understand timing, drives, and can properly tailor to the individual dog...
> 
> But for many layman, an improper correction can in fact make the behavior worse.
> 
> ...


That's why I always recommend people research and ask plenty of questions before they use any tools. Even the most basic such as a nylon leash or flat buckle collar. There's not a tool around or even simply moving into the dog's space that can't exacerbate problems if misused. A person shouldn't even have a dog unless they're willing to seek information and help as needed. Every interaction is training. Every interaction is either a correction or a reward. There is no in between. Every time you interact you're either rewarding a behavior or punishing and both can conceivably cause issues down the road. So really, I agree.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

NerdicEclipse said:


> That's why I always recommend people research and ask plenty of questions before they use any tools. Even the most basic such as a nylon leash or flat buckle collar. There's not a tool around or even simply moving into the dog's space that can't exacerbate problems if misused. A person shouldn't even have a dog unless they're willing to seek information and help as needed. Every interaction is training. Every interaction is either a correction or a reward. There is no in between. Every time you interact you're either rewarding a behavior or punishing and both can conceivably cause issues down the road. So really, I agree.


But that's not what you said. You put the absolute of untrue and demonstratably untrue. So you're recanting?


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have you tried a bark collar for the wailing and screaming?


Yes, the e-collar has been a great tool. He has a command word that silences him most of the time. He now sits, waits and is quiet while we get ready to go out. We still have a problem when I out without but we're working on it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

J&K said:


> I'm having him neutered because I hoped it would improve some of his behavior, he was a model puppy until puberty. I really want to wait until he 2.


1. You are heaving a training issue that is not hormone related. It is the training that needs to be fixed, not the dog. Neutering is not training and it won't change his behavior alone.

2. Ditch the harness and use a prong in combination with rewards for good behavior. o not immerse him in situations he or you cannot handle but stay in that grey area where he senses something, yet he can stil focus on you. Check out the Leerburg.com website and order your prong from them. They have great videos for you as well. Double check the picture on this thread earlier for correct placement on the Yellow Lab.

3. Read up :NILIF on this forum to lower his status.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NerdicEclipse said:


> Every interaction is training. Every interaction is either a correction or a reward. There is no in between. Every time you interact you're either rewarding a behavior or punishing and both can conceivably cause issues down the road.


Meh. I have plenty of neutral and non-learning interactions with my dog every day. 

Just a few minutes ago I asked him "Hey Mako, think we should paint the living room grey?" (True story. I was staring at that annoying paint chip by the door)

But of course... I am a crazy dog lady that has one sided conversations with the puppernut soooo....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, these actions must have a correction. Your dog needs to know the boundaries of acceptable behavior and positive only training will only take you so far.

I have found that a prong collar often ramps up aggression where a choke collar will suppress it. It's hard to bark and lunge when you are trying to breathe. Prongs cause pain, which is the point of them, and dogs will work thru pain to get to the object of their desire. 

Why don't you post your general area and people might be able to suggest a trainer to help you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

J&K said:


> Yes, the e-collar has been a great tool. He has a command word that silences him most of the time. He now sits, waits and is quiet while we get ready to go out. We still have a problem when I out without but we're working on it.


Not an e collar, a bark collar.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Meh. I have plenty of neutral and non-learning interactions with my dog every day.
> 
> Just a few minutes ago I asked him "Hey Mako, think we should paint the living room grey?" (True story. I was staring at that annoying paint chip by the door)
> 
> But of course... I am a crazy dog lady that has one sided conversations with the puppernut soooo....


That's not neutral. Any attention or affection we give them is one of two things. A reward, or a correction. If I mindlessly pet my dog or if I talk to her, she sees that as affection from me, and it's a reward for whatever she is doing in that moment. So if a dog is being a brat and you sit and talk to them, pet them or try to calm them, that's rewarding bratty behavior. If I am trying to shove my dog off a counter by hand, if I am trying to sooth them for barking at another dog, if I try to pet them to calm their anxiety as I try to leave the house for example, all of these are rewarding bad behavior. We don't think of it like that because to us, we're trying to achieve the opposite. But it is what it is. This is why you don't negotiate. You don't barter. You only communicate or physically touch when you want to reward or reinforce something. When you want to stop something, it absolutely requires correction. And correction can be a variety of things too. it's not only a collar pop or remote collar stim and so on. There are so many things that are also corrections that we don't think of as corrections.

We as humans think of things in a different way and many people make a huge mistake in forgetting that dogs are not human, they do not think like we do and view things in a very black and white way. I'm not saying it's bad to give our dogs affection or attention. Quite the contrary, we just have to be very mindful of when we do it. Their goal in everything they do is to either obtain a resource, or obtain our attention. That's it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

NerdicEclipse said:


> That's not neutral. Any attention or affection we give them is one of two things. A reward, or a correction. If I mindlessly pet my dog or if I talk to her, she sees that as affection from me, and it's a reward for whatever she is doing in that moment. So if a dog is being a brat and you sit and talk to them, pet them or try to calm them, that's rewarding bratty behavior. If I am trying to shove my dog off a counter by hand, if I am trying to sooth them for barking at another dog, if I try to pet them to calm their anxiety as I try to leave the house for example, all of these are rewarding bad behavior. We don't think of it like that because to us, we're trying to achieve the opposite. But it is what it is. This is why you don't negotiate. You don't barter. You only communicate or physically touch when you want to reward or reinforce something. When you want to stop something, it absolutely requires correction. And correction can be a variety of things too. it's not only a collar pop or remote collar stim and so on. There are so many things that are also corrections that we don't think of as corrections.
> 
> We as humans think of things in a different way and many people make a huge mistake in forgetting that dogs are not human, they do not think like we do and view things in a very black and white way. I'm not saying it's bad to give our dogs affection or attention. Quite the contrary, we just have to be very mindful of when we do it. Their goal in everything they do is to either obtain a resource, or obtain our attention. That's it.


This is true in theory and I too used to think like that when I first started working with the clicker, both as a trainer and dog owner. That was about 20 years ago. In the meantime I am not as rigid anymore and have relaxed quite a bit about all this. Especially since having the WL GSDs. I too talk this silly talk to Deja but she knows when I mean business. It doesn't change her behavior at all. I used to think that cuddling and oohing and aahing would show a dog submission but hey, I grew up too!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NerdicEclipse said:


> That's not neutral. Any attention or affection we give them is one of two things. A reward, or a correction. If I mindlessly pet my dog or if I talk to her, she sees that as affection from me, and it's a reward for whatever she is doing in that moment. So if a dog is being a brat and you sit and talk to them, pet them or try to calm them, that's rewarding bratty behavior. If I am trying to shove my dog off a counter by hand, if I am trying to sooth them for barking at another dog, if I try to pet them to calm their anxiety as I try to leave the house for example, all of these are rewarding bad behavior. We don't think of it like that because to us, we're trying to achieve the opposite. But it is what it is. This is why you don't negotiate. You don't barter. You only communicate or physically touch when you want to reward or reinforce something. When you want to stop something, it absolutely requires correction. And correction can be a variety of things too. it's not only a collar pop or remote collar stim and so on. There are so many things that are also corrections that we don't think of as corrections.
> 
> We as humans think of things in a different way and many people make a huge mistake in forgetting that dogs are not human, they do not think like we do and view things in a very black and white way. I'm not saying it's bad to give our dogs affection or attention. Quite the contrary, we just have to be very mindful of when we do it. Their goal in everything they do is to either obtain a resource, or obtain our attention. That's it.


You are forgetting a key component in operant conditioning though. That the subject determines if a consequence is reinforcing or punishing. 

My dog does not see my normal speaking voice as a reward. He's pretty immune to it as I work from home on the telephone. He hears it a lot and when I address him he focuses to see if there are any key words he knows to pick up some sort of meaning in my speech. In the interaction I had with him earlier - he heard his name, paid attention and determined that I was speaking nonsense and went back to bed. Neutral interaction. Now had I used my higher pitched happy/reward voice or included positive word associations that he knows - then it would be different. 

Then of course, something that is normally rewarding or punishing isn't always so depending on the dog's emotional state - If you get a dog into a state of extreme fear and anxiety - total meltdown territory - all the petting and soothing you do will not be reinforcing the bad behavior - the dog is NOT in a receptive state for reinforcement it is too deep in flight or fight to care at all about your "rewarding". Same on the other end of the spectrum with aggression - issue your correction too late when the dog is already well into fight and it is not perceived as a punishment even if under other circumstances it would be effective as such. 

I think a lot of people underestimate both dog's intelligence and emotional capacity/complexity. They are more than just biological machines you can program through correction and reward.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> 1. You are heaving a training issue that is not hormone related. It is the training that needs to be fixed, not the dog. Neutering is not training and it won't change his behavior alone.
> 
> 2. Ditch the harness and use a prong in combination with rewards for good behavior. o not immerse him in situations he or you cannot handle but stay in that grey area where he senses something, yet he can stil focus on you. Check out the Leerburg.com website and order your prong from them. They have great videos for you as well. Double check the picture on this thread earlier for correct placement on the Yellow Lab.
> 
> 3. Read up :NILIF on this forum to lower his status.


All of this x1000. Especially NILIF.
@J&K You need to change your mindset. You are allowing these things to happen. Stop allowing it, stop putting up with it, and stop excusing it. The whole screaming thing sounds like a temper tantrum. We went through a few when our dog was that age. We didn't put up with it, because it was annoying and made us dislike our dog.

Don't ever let your dog do things that make you dislike it.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> You are forgetting a key component in operant conditioning though. That the subject determines if a consequence is reinforcing or punishing.
> 
> My dog does not see my normal speaking voice as a reward. He's pretty immune to it as I work from home on the telephone. He hears it a lot and when I address him he focuses to see if there are any key words he knows to pick up some sort of meaning in my speech. In the interaction I had with him earlier - he heard his name, paid attention and determined that I was speaking nonsense and went back to bed. Neutral interaction. Now had I used my higher pitched happy/reward voice or included positive word associations that he knows - then it would be different.
> 
> ...


Didn't forget it at all. It's simply a fact. Every interaction has a meaning to a dog. You talking while doing other things is entirely different. You communicating and providing attention to the dog is a positive thing. Often even if the interaction is negative or even harsh in some cases. They view our attention as rewarding. 

I'm not talking about general day to day interactions being critically important, of course. If you talk to your dog as he's lying in the floor an hour after doing something bad, of course that's not reinforcing the bad behavior. If you issue a correction once drive has already spiked, of course your correction doesn't imprint. But this is not up for debate. If you have a dog that is say, counter surfing. And you sit there and pull the "Come on sweetie, get off the counter" while pushing it down or guiding it's feet off the edge, or offering it a reward to get down, you are absolutely positively reinforcing the behavior. If you have a dog that is pulling on leash and you're talking to it AT ALL, touching it or anything else, you are reinforcing bad behavior. Solving leash reactivity or even dog/human reactivity or aggression requires no physical touch and no vocal communication. In fact, either of these is a huge problem.

Indeed if you get into corrections or rewards when your timing is off, it doesn't do anything. But people have to be mindful that EVERY INTERACTION with their dog is training. Period. It's not a gray area. It's black and white. People need to keep that in their mind when they interact. Everything you do is training. From the second you pick up the puppy until the day it dies, the dog is learning, it is training and it views interaction the same. They're not machines, but they're not even remotely human, they don't think as we do and they don't even emote or view emotions or affection in the same way. People make a HUGE mistake when they anthropomorphize dogs.

Not everyone is a trainer or has experience training dogs, especially dogs with behavioral or aggression issues. I get that. Just trying to help. The people that come to us to fix these things generally cause them or cause them to exponentially get worse in the ways I've talked about. It's easily corrected, just always try to help folks save themselves a few hundred bucks and time with their dogs. *shrug*


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> This is true in theory and I too used to think like that when I first started working with the clicker, both as a trainer and dog owner. That was about 20 years ago. In the meantime I am not as rigid anymore and have relaxed quite a bit about all this. Especially since having the WL GSDs. I too talk this silly talk to Deja but she knows when I mean business. It doesn't change her behavior at all. I used to think that cuddling and oohing and aahing would show a dog submission but hey, I grew up too!


20 years ago sounds about right! HUGE advances in research and understanding of a dog's emotional and intellectual capacity just in the last 10-15 years.

Science is catching up to what dog people have known for a long time!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dogs-may-understand-even-more-than-we-thought/

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/150720-dogs-animals-science-pets-evolution-intelligence/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-your-dog-really-does-care-if-you-are-unhappy


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

As a parent I compare these issues with the time I had 15 year-old boys (humans). The testosterone related issues disappeared, both by them maturing and the way we raised them; consequences of behavior, exercise, a teen-job and staying in school. They didn't need to go to the doctor......


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kyrielle said:


> *
> Don't ever let your dog do things that make you dislike it.*


Most behaviors can be addressed using a variety of methods, obviously adjusted by age and the temperament of the particular dog. But if one wanted to sum up successful dog ownership succinctly, I can't imagine how it could be stated more clearly!


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## BOSKY (May 14, 2016)

I did not neuter my GSD and I don't plan on it. The health benefits are not as significant as preached and the data on that is far from acceptable and is often location, breed specific. If I take into account probability, I fail to see the advantage of neutering. Ex.. the probability of him getting out, finding a female who isn't spayed and is in heat, as well as being lose for them to interact, is far lower than the probability of him getting out and being hit by a car. The biggest threat to my GSD is humans as opposed to getting another dog pregnant or the low chance of testicular cancer. Being my dog is a GSD, it was very easy (but took a while) to teach my dog that when he does get out, which has only happened under a controlled environment to test his training, he's learned to go to the front door and lay down. Living outside the city in a more rural area certainly helps. 

But to each their own. I support spay and neutering for population control and if I lived in the city or a heavily populated area, I'd probably neuter him after one breeding. Note: I simply want one puppy from his line. I will breed him once. 

Behavioral issues have been solved with training. I don't need to chop off his testicles to have a well trained and well-behaved dog. I need to be a good owner and train him, exercise him, and give him tasks to keep him occupied. I've been able to train out any aggression but benefited from having a slightly "skittish" dog to begin with. As soon as a fight breaks out at a dog park, he's running for the hills. If a dog gets aggressive with him, he submits or runs for the hills. Training is far more effective in this area than neutering, but again, I'm not against it if the situation calls for it and of course, do what you wish with your GSD. It is your dog. 

I have used a pronged collar for training and the only issues I've ever had is the fit. He's fully grown and in between links. It's either too tight or too loose and it seems to change depending on his coat. After a bath, it's too loose. Two months post bath, it's too tight. But it's ability to correct and the train has been tremendously valuable, even when I get looks and comments from liberal dog owners who find it cruel. I've worn the thing, it does not hurt.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not an e collar, a bark collar.


The e-collar successfully modified inside barking within a week. A silence command word is successful 60% of the time we are out of the house (except for his frenzy at men while on leash). The whining and wailing while we get ready to go out has been reduced greatly, he now sits, waits and is quiet while I get ready. I've only had the collar for 3 weeks and it takes time. The shock mode has been extremely successful at eliminating humping at the dog park. I'm happy with the e-collar and don't think it would be helpful when he lunges at men.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Neutering or not, you need to get your dog under control. 

You need to find a competent trainer who can work with you and your dog, either singly or in classes. You need to stop putting your faith in gadgets, u-tubes, , dog parks, and find someone who knows what they are doing and will teach you how to manage this young dog. 

Your dog's life is currently in grave danger. If he ran in front of a car and broke his hip, you would take him to the vet. He needs a different kind of professional. He needs training. You need training. And it is EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT as taking him to the vet. 

If your 11 month old dog connects during one of these lunges, your home-owner's insurance will probably take a hit. If your home-owner's insurance pays for a dog bite, they will probably drop you. Then you will have to scramble to get insurance, with a dog with a bite history. You may not be able to get insurance with a dog with a bite history, and if you have a loan on your house, you will need insurance. Your dog will have a bite history. Shelters will not adopt him out. Most rescues will not touch him. And you will not be able to keep him. He will be euthanized. Yes, this is a worst-case scenario. But you need to get this fixed. 

Drop the dog park, it is a bad idea for your dog. Exercise your dog. 
I'd drop the e-collar and the sensation harness.
Use the prong collar to correct your dog, not just for lunging, but for behavior that is not acceptable. 
Become consistent. The dog needs to put YOU in the center of his universe. He needs to look to YOU and take his cues from You.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> As a parent I compare these issues with the time I had 15 year-old boys (humans). The testosterone related issues disappeared, both by them maturing and the way we raised them; consequences of behavior, exercise, a teen-job and staying in school. They didn't need to go to the doctor......


It's really getting late here. I thought you were going to say, "the testosterone related issues disappeared, for both of them, when we neutered them." As I said, it is getting late, LOL!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Neutering will not help. I also believe let the dog mature a bit of you decide to neuter. Maturing, training I’m not sure what really helped the combination of both I suppose. I have used prong, ecollar. Timing of the correction is most important. Slight corrections with the herme sprenger neck tech collar - which is a little less of a correction then a regular prong to remind Max to behave works best for us where we don’t need them walking past dogs on streets or beaches, parks etc. and know if he would need a reminders or not by much practice as a young adolescent dog. we have not been sitting in a class room filled with many males dogs in quite awhile so I would imagine a stronger reminder may be needed in that kind of situation.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

selzer said:


> Neutering or not, you need to get your dog under control.
> 
> You need to find a competent trainer who can work with you and your dog, either singly or in classes. You need to stop putting your faith in gadgets, u-tubes, , dog parks, and find someone who knows what they are doing and will teach you how to manage this young dog.
> 
> ...



You appear to have jumped to some conclusions or perhaps I haven't provided the right info. Kaiser can walk by most people and dogs with no problem. The lunging started recently and only with men, particularly men in busy vests. I recognize my responsibility in this potentially dangerous situation.

I consulted the trainer I used previously with an aggressive GS rescue, she helped me turn him around with positive training. While I trust her, she doesn't believe in corrective training or supports the use of prong collars (which is why I've been using the sensations harness). In our small community, not getting Kaiser fixed, use of e-collars, my strictness or even the suggestion of using a pronged collar makes people overtly judgmental with no qualms about sharing their opinions which is discouraging. Trainers in the area don't support corrective training. If necessary I'll go to the city for a consult. Repeatedly driving 5 hours in winter conditions for dog training isn't prudent. 

Kaiser is my third GS and started training from day one, it's not a lack of experience with GS, inconsistency or non-commitment on my part. We are just going through a rough period. The behavior problems started with adolescence and a change it our situation made it worse. I moved from a farm to living in a 3 story walk up, in a National Park caring for my injured son. We have deer, elk, cougars, wolves, coyotes, drunk tourists and the occasional bear wandering around town in the winter which makes a walk stressful with an excitable puppy. Minus 20 weather means you have to make the exercise quick and efficient. My son's dog is completely feral which isn't helping. 

The whining, wailing and pushiness started around 9 months, I had little success with positive training so I decided to try the e-collar. It's proven to be an excellent tool to get his attention when he needs to follow a command. Within a week barking was resolve with the collar and redirection. He now obeys his command word to silence immediately. For the second day without the collar, he sat and waited quietly while I dressed to take him out. In three weeks, we resolve barking, humping and 'whining/pushiness. The car is still an issue but I'm putting up a barrier so he is confined to the backseat and doesn't interfere with my driving.

The dog park is a necessity for exercise, he has no interest in playing with other dogs, he wants to play ball, Frisbee and soccer. He has excellent recall, and an emergency recall if necessary. His strong prey drive was a problem with small dogs but it has been resolved. He walks away from conflict. He is friendly with everyone at the park including men. Other people's dogs are more a problem for me than my own.

Thanks for most of your advice.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

*Thanks for the advice.*

I've decided to add a prong collar to Kaiser's training. The negativity around the use of prong collars cause me to be insecure about my decision. I should have gone with my gut and incorporated it the minute he started to lunge. I've gained some excellent insight from this forum and I thank you!

Also, I won't be neutering him anytime soon.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

J&K said:


> You appear to have jumped to some conclusions or perhaps I haven't provided the right info. Kaiser can walk by most people and dogs with no problem. The lunging started recently and only with men, particularly men in busy vests.


Ok, I am picturing boy scout counselors lol. Sorry, if you don't laugh you'll cry.

I agree with your decisions to go prong and no neutering. Lots of good advice to be found here on this forum. 

One thing I didn't see mentioned...tightening on the lead when you see a man approaching, because you are afraid he will react. No matter what kind of collar you are using, if you take up the slack and are pulling on him, all that tension will go right down the lead. It will make him want to lunge. It is a mistake I was making that a trainer corrected for me. Take up the huge slack by all means, but not to the point where it is taut between you and his collar. Have him sit when a man is approaching, and be ready to deliver correction.

I didn't see if you said that you had a trainer- if you don't at least book a session. Even if it is 2 hours away. There is a trainer I am using that I like, he is an hour away..3 if there is traffic. I pay a little extra as a result. So I can't afford weekly with him. I booked a 2 hour intro with him, made a lot of progress, and my homework is to get down what he taught me 100%. Then i will book him again and focus on any issues or advanced training. My go to regular trainer here is out of commish for a bit, and I honestly did not like any other local trainers. They all seem to focus on TOO TOO much positive, all are a fan of no pull harnesses like what you are using and I hate harnesses when used for that purpose.

I'll give you an example. They lady around here that is most popular advises habituating your dog to strangers (socializing) by having random people spontaneously treat them like a gumball machine. Have a friends come over, preferably ones they don't know, and have them open the door and just wordlessly feed your dog liver bits. Everybody is your friend!!

Does it work? I am sure. Do I want my dog viewing strangers as a potential friendly food source. NOOOOOOOOO Hey, if I had a chihuahua or similar breed that was precluding us from enjoying company because of incessant barking and such...then , whatever works. But a large dog that I also want to be our protector? No, very bad advice. Get an Irish Setter then.

So I shelled out for less frequent training, realizing it is on me to be diligent about doing what I am told from our limited sessions. 

Good luck, your head seems to be in the right place, you are taking good advice. I suspect this will be a puppy rearing memory you chuckle at once your boy matures.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

J&K said:


> You appear to have jumped to some conclusions or perhaps I haven't provided the right info. Kaiser can walk by most people and dogs with no problem. The lunging started recently and only with men, particularly men in busy vests. I recognize my responsibility in this potentially dangerous situation.
> 
> I consulted the trainer I used previously with an aggressive GS rescue, she helped me turn him around with positive training. While I trust her, she doesn't believe in corrective training or supports the use of prong collars (which is why I've been using the sensations harness). In our small community, not getting Kaiser fixed, use of e-collars, my strictness or even the suggestion of using a pronged collar makes people overtly judgmental with no qualms about sharing their opinions which is discouraging. Trainers in the area don't support corrective training. If necessary I'll go to the city for a consult. Repeatedly driving 5 hours in winter conditions for dog training isn't prudent.
> 
> ...


Other people's dogs are the exact reason to avoid dog parks. You cannot control how other people's dogs will behave or how they'll allow them to behave. Somebody may bring an aggressive dog to the park and just let it loose to 'play'. And I've noticed this is especially true of smaller breed dogs because 'little dog syndrome' is cute. Then if your dog reacts it is their fault as the bigger dog even if the little dog attacks first. Or it goes by breed and GSDs are known as a formidable breed. And bringing toys to dog parks is a major cause of fights. Some dog parks actually ban toys from being brought in for that reason, although people tend not to listen. 

I use examples of my friends a lot but that's because I like to learn from others. She no longer goes to the dog park even though it is the easiest/most convienent way for her to excervise her dog. This is because of numerous incidents one of which was a cattle dog that was attacked by a dauchshund. He retaliated bit down and wouldn't let go. While his owner was trying to pry his jaws apart the dachshund's owners was holding onto it and was bitten in the face by his own dog. He is now pressing charges against the cattle dog's owner including claiming it was the dog that bit him. He is likely to win simply because he has the smaller dog. And the city they live in has a strike record against dogs so if the owner looses her dog gets a strike and then gets whatever the number is 2 or 3 then he has to get put down. 

Incidents like that are very common. Of course it's obviously your decision but please just be aware of the risks. Nothing may ever happen to you but something might and some lessons are not best learned the hard way. 

And good luck with your dog in his training. It sounds like you're really dedicated to him and trying to stay on top of things.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> And bringing toys to dog parks is a major cause of fights. Some dog parks actually ban toys from being brought in for that reason, although people tend not to listen.


^This a thousand times over. Few things will start a dog fight faster than food or toys in a dog park.

The purpose of dog parks is to let dogs run and play off leash with each other, not a place for one on one play time with the owner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

OP: I have been taking my dog to a dog park for exercise almost daily since she was 5 months old, because for me it is also a necessity. My puppy is now 1 yr old, and she's made some great friends with a few other dogs, and I with their owners (several of whom are members of this forum). 

Yes over the past 7 months I have seen an aggressive dog or two come to the park (which is actually against the law where I live). But the regulars, at least at our park, are pretty darn good about watching and tending to their dog's, and won't hesitate to tell someone to leave if their dog is being aggressive. My own puppy has been in a couple scuffles, but they were broken up quickly and no blood was spilled (My pup will not tolerate being bitten aggressively without a response). Virtually everyone who comes regularly to our park knows that my puppy has never been inappropriately aggressive and would vouch for her temperment if any dispute ever occurred. 

To each their own, but for me, even if I had ready access to other areas where my dog could run off leash I would probably still take her to the dog park occasionally, because knowing how to handle herself around other dogs is a good thing for her to know! Just my 2 cents...good luck on resolving your puppy's reactivity, it sounds to me like you're on the right path.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

J&K said:


> I've decided to add a prong collar to Kaiser's training. The negativity around the use of prong collars cause me to be insecure about my decision. I should have gone with my gut and incorporated it the minute he started to lunge. I've gained some excellent insight from this forum and I thank you!
> 
> Also, I won't be neutering him anytime soon.


Good to hear! I too was against everything that was not "clicker and treats" and prong collars even more. But when my adolescent male GSD pulled me off my feet when he saw his best buddy, I was a changed trainer. With the next pup I am not going to wait that long. So puppy, brace yourself :grin2:
You will be so proud of yourself and the dog when you get him through this crazy stage and intact! But be prepared to pull out your hair sometimes.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> To each their own, but for me, even if I had ready access to other areas where my dog could run off leash I would probably still take her to the dog park occasionally, because knowing how to handle herself around other dogs is a good thing for her to know!


...until she comes face to face with a dog that doesn't know how to interact appropriately and who will savagely attack her. Then you wil be too late. I think you are taking a great risk by letting her solve these issues.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

CometDog said:


> Ok, I am picturing boy scout counselors lol. Sorry, if you don't laugh you'll cry.
> 
> I agree with your decisions to go prong and no neutering. Lots of good advice to be found here on this forum.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the excellent advice! I never considered the leash being pull tight would increase the reaction. I've been strictly positive reinforcement training up until 3 weeks ago, it just doesn't work with his new adolescent behavior. I have a trainer I trust but she is against corrective training and dead set against prong collars. I'll find a trainer for a consult but I won't drive regularly in winter weather for classes. And thanks for the vote of confidence it is appreciated.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Good to hear! I too was against everything that was not "clicker and treats" and prong collars even more. But when my adolescent male GSD pulled me off my feet when he saw his best buddy, I was a changed trainer. With the next pup I am not going to wait that long. So puppy, brace yourself :grin2:
> You will be so proud of yourself and the dog when you get him through this crazy stage and intact! But be prepared to pull out your hair sometimes.


Thanks for the confidence builder. It really is a crazy stage it's like having a rebellious teenager.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> OP: I have been taking my dog to a dog park for exercise almost daily since she was 5 months old, because for me it is also a necessity. My puppy is now 1 yr old, and she's made some great friends with a few other dogs, and I with their owners (several of whom are members of this forum).
> 
> Yes over the past 7 months I have seen an aggressive dog or two come to the park (which is actually against the law where I live). But the regulars, at least at our park, are pretty darn good about watching and tending to their dog's, and won't hesitate to tell someone to leave if their dog is being aggressive. My own puppy has been in a couple scuffles, but they were broken up quickly and no blood was spilled (My pup will not tolerate being bitten aggressively without a response). Virtually everyone who comes regularly to our park knows that my puppy has never been inappropriately aggressive and would vouch for her temperment if any dispute ever occurred.
> 
> To each their own, but for me, even if I had ready access to other areas where my dog could run off leash I would probably still take her to the dog park occasionally, because knowing how to handle herself around other dogs is a good thing for her to know! Just my 2 cents...good luck on resolving your puppy's reactivity, it sounds to me like you're on the right path.


I'm in a National Park with wild animals wandering around town for the winter. Going to the outskirts of town is an even worse option. And I don't have a back yard. The dog park is the less of two evils. Kaiser avoids conflict but doesn't fear the dog after and continues on with his enjoyment of the park. I've had problems with aggressive dogs but I'm fierce about the owner controlling their dog. Living in a small community helps because we see each other outside the dog park on a regular basis. Thanks for your two cents.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

Kazel said:


> Other people's dogs are the exact reason to avoid dog parks. You cannot control how other people's dogs will behave or how they'll allow them to behave. Somebody may bring an aggressive dog to the park and just let it loose to 'play'. And I've noticed this is especially true of smaller breed dogs because 'little dog syndrome' is cute. Then if your dog reacts it is their fault as the bigger dog even if the little dog attacks first. Or it goes by breed and GSDs are known as a formidable breed. And bringing toys to dog parks is a major cause of fights. Some dog parks actually ban toys from being brought in for that reason, although people tend not to listen.
> 
> I use examples of my friends a lot but that's because I like to learn from others. She no longer goes to the dog park even though it is the easiest/most convienent way for her to excervise her dog. This is because of numerous incidents one of which was a cattle dog that was attacked by a dauchshund. He retaliated bit down and wouldn't let go. While his owner was trying to pry his jaws apart the dachshund's owners was holding onto it and was bitten in the face by his own dog. He is now pressing charges against the cattle dog's owner including claiming it was the dog that bit him. He is likely to win simply because he has the smaller dog. And the city they live in has a strike record against dogs so if the owner looses her dog gets a strike and then gets whatever the number is 2 or 3 then he has to get put down.
> 
> ...


My only exercise option is the dog park because of my location. Kaiser avoids conflict without becoming fearful. I've had my showdowns with owners in the past which has always resulted in the owner keeping their dog away from us. Fortunately it's a small community so everyone knows each other. Kaiser used to become aggressive about dogs constantly stealing his toys but that behavior has been curbed by me retrieving the toy from the offending dog immediately. It's amazing how many people chase their dog around begging for the toy so they can give it back. Thanks for the advice and vote of confidence.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

J&K said:


> My only exercise option is the dog park because of my location. Kaiser avoids conflict without becoming fearful. I've had my showdowns with owners in the past which has always resulted in the owner keeping their dog away from us. Fortunately it's a small community so everyone knows each other. Kaiser used to become aggressive about dogs constantly stealing his toys but that behavior has been curbed by me retrieving the toy from the offending dog immediately. It's amazing how many people chase their dog around begging for the toy so they can give it back. Thanks for the advice and vote of confidence.


well then, perhaps you are becoming a good role model in your dog park. "I expect y'all to train and control your dogs, then we can play in peace". 
The dog parks around here usually forbid toys, although some people do bring them in anyhow. Can have a rule if they don't enforce it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

J&K said:


> My only exercise option is the dog park because of my location. Kaiser avoids conflict without becoming fearful. I've had my showdowns with owners in the past which has always resulted in the owner keeping their dog away from us. Fortunately it's a small community so everyone knows each other. Kaiser used to become aggressive about dogs constantly stealing his toys but that behavior has been curbed by me retrieving the toy from the offending dog immediately. It's amazing how many people chase their dog around begging for the toy so they can give it back. Thanks for the advice and vote of confidence.


Taking a toy away from a dog that is not your own is a good way to get yourself bit.


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## BOSKY (May 14, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> ...until she comes face to face with a dog that doesn't know how to interact appropriately and who will savagely attack her. Then you wil be too late. I think you are taking a great risk by letting her solve these issues.





J&K said:


> My only exercise option is the dog park because of my location. Kaiser avoids conflict without becoming fearful. I've had my showdowns with owners in the past which has always resulted in the owner keeping their dog away from us. Fortunately it's a small community so everyone knows each other. Kaiser used to become aggressive about dogs constantly stealing his toys but that behavior has been curbed by me retrieving the toy from the offending dog immediately. It's amazing how many people chase their dog around begging for the toy so they can give it back. Thanks for the advice and vote of confidence.


Go to the dog park and enjoy the socialization. Don't let those with bad experiences prevent you from creating your own. While I agree, dog parks are not the safe havens they claim to be, you have a GSD. It's not like you're taking a Pomeranian out there with no defense mechanism. You own one of the most powerful breeds on earth. As long as they don't do anything and you don't run into a pit with a bad owner, you're going to be fine. I've seen my GSD put other dogs in their place when they get too aggressive with him and he's the most passive dog I've ever owned. He submits and is friendly unless another dog bites him, at which point he usually alerts the owner it is time to remove this toy from his area or consequences. His growl and teeth are enough to alert the owners. He has never once attacked a dog even when he's been attacked himself. That's what constant work with your dog produces. 

In regards to the ball, have the other owner get it for you and ask them to control their dog. Or wear a glove. It's just not worth the risk to yourself. You shouldn't have to retrieve the ball from someone else's dog. Communication with other owners goes a long way and the vast majority of the time they'll be compliant with your requests.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

BOSKY said:


> Go to the dog park and enjoy the socialization. Don't let those with bad experiences prevent you from creating your own. While I agree, dog parks are not the safe havens they claim to be, you have a GSD. It's not like you're taking a Pomeranian out there with no defense mechanism. You own one of the most powerful breeds on earth. As long as they don't do anything and you don't run into a pit with a bad owner, you're going to be fine. I've seen my GSD put other dogs in their place when they get too aggressive with him and he's the most passive dog I've ever owned. He submits and is friendly unless another dog bites him, at which point he usually alerts the owner it is time to remove this toy from his area or consequences. His growl and teeth are enough to alert the owners. He has never once attacked a dog even when he's been attacked himself. That's what constant work with your dog produces.
> 
> In regards to the ball, have the other owner get it for you and ask them to control their dog. Or wear a glove. It's just not worth the risk to yourself. You shouldn't have to retrieve the ball from someone else's dog. Communication with other owners goes a long way and the vast majority of the time they'll be compliant with your requests.


I agree with you totally. My previous GS and I could have been eaten by a bear when we hiked but it didn't stop me from doing something we both enjoyed. The dog park has it's risks but it's the only place we have to play ball, something that brings Kaiser extreme joy. My responsibility is to make conscious decisions on how to be safe. We avoid busy times, leave when problem dogs are there. Sometimes we leave because a type small dog will kick in Kaiser's prey drive. He isn't allowed to become ball crazy because it leaves him open to aggression. We leave when kids arrive because I don't know his reaction to kids. We play at the end of the park away from the gate. We only play chuck-it when we are alone because dogs steal the ball and it frustrates us both. 

Fortunately, Kaiser is aloof with most dogs he just wants to pee on every tree, dig in the snow and play ball. He tends to just walk away from an aggressive dog. He's been nipped by other dogs, but as he's matured, become coordinated and experienced, he is more confident and the aggressive dogs leave him alone. 

I wouldn't approach a dog I didn't know. I've asked permission from the owners to retrieve the toys given the never ending cycle of theft. I know the dogs since we spend nearly every afternoon together. One owner chases the dog around trying to get the toy back with no success. The other says he'll drop it eventually and the other yells non-stop for the dog to drop it which never happens. When it's below minus 20, we have maybe 30 minutes to play before we have to leave, I don't have time to waste waiting for someone who can't control their dog.

Thanks for the support and advice.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Don't forget to back the prong up with another collar coupled to lead. Leerburg.comwas suggested and is super. And they would most likely sat backup with a dominant dog collar. The idea is,in a milder situation,to just take the air away from the dog,nothing more. But it is there to render a real aggressive dog unconscious or more. But that is not why you would need it. I have used one years ago on my late male GSD that inherited some of his dads handler aggression. Just briefly took his air away a few times (I am short and old) and problem worked out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J&K said:


> You appear to have jumped to some conclusions or perhaps I haven't provided the right info. Kaiser can walk by most people and dogs with no problem. The lunging started recently and only with men, particularly men in busy vests. I recognize my responsibility in this potentially dangerous situation.
> 
> I consulted the trainer I used previously with an aggressive GS rescue, she helped me turn him around with positive training. While I trust her, she doesn't believe in corrective training or supports the use of prong collars (which is why I've been using the sensations harness). In our small community, not getting Kaiser fixed, use of e-collars, my strictness or even the suggestion of using a pronged collar makes people overtly judgmental with no qualms about sharing their opinions which is discouraging. Trainers in the area don't support corrective training. If necessary I'll go to the city for a consult. Repeatedly driving 5 hours in winter conditions for dog training isn't prudent.
> 
> ...


My impression of dog parks are half-acre fenced lots with a couple picnic tables where clueless dog owners socialize or talk on their phones, while their dogs run around together, bullying other dogs and getting into scrapes. If your dog park is for interaction between you and your dog only, then maybe that probably works just fine. 

Mostly, if dogs are having behavioral issues, then, they need to make fewer decisions. All the decision making comes from you. And usually the dog park experience, ramps dogs up and does nothing for the owner/dog bond. The dog has too much freedom in most dog park environments. So, when there are behavioral issues, the idea is to use EVERYTHING to improve the owner/dog bond. Exercise, on leash, is preferable to running about doing your own thing, or chasing other dogs, etc. 

It doesn't matter who your dog is having a problem with. What I said about home-owner's insurance, and shelters and rescues not taking a dog with a bite history does apply. You know your dog and your situation. Just think about it. 

It does make sense to get a trainer that is not afraid of correcting dogs. There is a place for positive training. I use positive training all the time. It works. If you have a good foundation in training. You need the same tools that you use with corrections: timing, consistency, motivation, engagement, clear communication, repetition, and so forth. You can do a lot with positive training, but it is not just an aversion to punishment or corrections. It is a variety of tools to motivate and improve a dog's bond with its owners. Training should be 90-95% positive. We should be setting dogs up for success and praising them for succeeding. That is good training philosophy. 

I have no problem with correcting a dog. But I find the more experience I have with dogs, the less I need to correct them. I set things up so that the proper behavior in most instances is the obvious choice, and sometimes the only choice. With maturity, the dog learns with very few negative markers. I don't train with e-collars, prong collars, or any type of harnesses. For me, I find them unnecessary. I would rather someone use a prong collar than sustain a battle of any magnitude with a dog. If that is pulling/dragging/not responding to commands, etc. Good leadership does not include matching our strength with our dog -- no battle of wills. We are the leader, they are the follower, end of discussion. There is no discussion. If the prong collar moves us into the level of no-discussion about wills, if there is a discussion, then it is better to get that resolved even if it includes a prong collar. 

I am totally and completely against e-collars. Lots of people here like them. People I know use them. They are good people. I know a great trainer, who installs e-fences and trains dogs with e-collars. Not my thing, so I am not going to comment on what you are doing with the e-collar, others can address that if necessary. 

You need a trainer who is not averse to the tools you want to use or are using.


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## J&K (Nov 11, 2017)

UPDATE: Adding the prong collar to Kaiser's training worked perfectly! No more lunging or barking at men. The collar put me back in control, it's so much easier to focus on training when I don't have to worry about him lunging. Over the last two weeks I've slowly increased his exposure to different stimuli and situations while on walks. Yesterday he was startled by two men on the walking trail, he looked at them and continued walking with me. Today a man jogged by and no reaction! 

I discovered his dislike for construction vest is the reflective material. He has the same reaction to skiers. I purchased a construction vest and hung it in the hallway so he can get used to it. While he no longer lunges or barks at construction workers, he show signs of stress so I'm cautious. Also, people entering his space needs more work, while he doesn't bark ect, he still gets tense. 

I truly regret not walking him as frequently once he started going to the dog park, we've returned to two walks a day and one visit to the park. 

Putting a barrier in the car to keep him from jumping around has ended the temper tantrums mostly. Before we go to the dog park, we sit in the car until I'm ready to leave. When we arrive at the park, we sit in the car until he sits quiet at the door. Each day it's happening a little bit faster. 

Thanks to the many people with such helpful advice, it's truly been appreciated.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

:happyboogie:


J&K said:


> UPDATE: Adding the prong collar to Kaiser's training worked perfectly! No more lunging or barking at men. The collar put me back in control, it's so much easier to focus on training when I don't have to worry about him lunging. Over the last two weeks I've slowly increased his exposure to different stimuli and situations while on walks. Yesterday he was startled by two men on the walking trail, he looked at them and continued walking with me. Today a man jogged by and no reaction!
> 
> I discovered his dislike for construction vest is the reflective material. He has the same reaction to skiers. I purchased a construction vest and hung it in the hallway so he can get used to it. While he no longer lunges or barks at construction workers, he show signs of stress so I'm cautious. Also, people entering his space needs more work, while he doesn't bark ect, he still gets tense.
> 
> ...


:happyboogie: This is so good to hear. Keep up the good work and don't let your guard down when things improve.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

That's great! Excellent problem solving there. 

Maybe it's now time to move the vest outside and hang it on a tree in the sun where the wind can move it about. Construction workers are moving around and the sun is very bright on those vests, so I imagine there's some reflective flash that Kaiser is seeing.


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