# Breeding a "non-titled" GS, but has titled pedigree?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a question. (Nothing new) 

I had a FB conversation with my breeder. She was suggesting that I do not spay Kira, and consider breeding her. She would handle all aspects of it.
OK, that all sounds nice....


However, here's the tricky part...
If I look at Kira's pedigree, EVERY dog in her pedigree is titled. Her father is 2011 world seiger, and her mother is also tilted.

So Kira would be the first in her pedigree to breed without holding title.

Why would a breeder consider this? Wouldn't breeding my dog be a step backwards in the breeder's tradition of breeding titled dogs?

Just curious.
TY


----------



## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Depends on the breeder and what they're hoping to accomplish.

I think some people get far too hung up on titles personally- ideally yes, it would be nice if all breeding dogs had them, but it comes down to the level of integrity, experience, breed knowledge, and familiarity with the pedigrees said breeder has.

That said, most people who breed without them are either lazy, else not dealing with the best of stock. You have to be smart and know the difference.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Or are doing other things with the dogs where titles are not needed; police work, working farm, etc.


----------



## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

That too. I have several friends who breed Coonhounds (Black/Tan and Treeing Walker), all of whom are worked, none of whom are titled. All good dogs who I would take in a heartbeat if I was looking for a working **** dog.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

You could wait until she is titled.
Assuming that she is within standard in all areas (including temperament), her background indicates that she is breed-worthy.
Even if you don't go through the process of titling her she may very well be a good representation of the breed and one whose genes should be carried forward.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> You could wait until she is titled.
> Assuming that she is within standard in all areas (including temperament), her background indicates that she is breed-worthy.
> Even if you don't go through the process of titling her she may very well be a good representation of the breed and one whose genes should be carried forward.


That's what her breeder said.

I honestly didn't think they'd be interested in breeding a non titled dog, regardless of its pedigree.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

atravis said:


> That said, most people who breed without them are either lazy, else not dealing with the best of stock. You have to be smart and know the difference.


Yep.

Some breeders I would trust to make the decision to breed an untitled bitch, others I would not. My breeder was toying with the idea of me leaving Vinca intact, but I don't have the wherewithall to title at this point in my life, and I certainly have no intention to become a breeder. If she really wanted to breed Vinca, the breeder would lease her back and take care of everything from the time the breeding took place until all the puppies had gone to their new homes. Is your breeder willing to do that, or do they just want you to raise a litter for them?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

there's also the 'money' factor Who'd be paying for YOUR vet costs , and who would be benefiting from selling those puppies? Questions to ask for sure, and honestly, I would get it all in writing..


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Unless your dog has a job to do and is good at that job, I wouldn't breed an untitled bitch. There are more than enough of those around so although the titling/rating process isn't perfect, it does offer some quality control. 

If you did breed her, what would you get? 50/50 split on the litter? Who is doing the selling? Is she going to whelp her? Who pays stud costs? What if there a complication and all the pups are gone, who pays costs related to the gestational vet fees? Who will title the female? You are putting in all the effort to title your dog, you house the dog, you vet the dog, you will be there when she grows old...what are the benefits to YOU in this arrangement? These are the type of questions I would ask myself before considering this type of deal...


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd also be interested in why her and not one of her sisters, one or two of which is presumably going on to be shown and titled?


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

All your questions are valid, and are the reasons I raised the question here.
For whatever reasons, I kept in close contact with her breeder. i also keep in touch with one of her co-breeders on a few of their other dogs.
From what I gather, it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him.
Kira represents one of four females born from his litter. I know the breeder kept one, and the other two are in California and Arizona. Neither are being worked. The breeder is training his in Shutzhund, and is begging me to bring Kira into the club. He's very active in the competitions, and he's done a great job with some of his dogs.
I would love to join, but I don't think I could drive 2.5 hours for training. I hate to drive.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

IMO, if they thought they wanted progeny, they should have put the girls on contracts or co-owns or whatever breeders do.

It's really not fair to go to a family who got the dog as a family pet and ask to breed said pet.
You're not set up to be a breeder nor are you (probably) interested in it.

Not to mention, 6-12 puppies is a _lot_ of work. Do not ever underestimate the amount of time and work you have to put into it.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him.


So, money, then?

Unless you (or they) are willing to train and title your girl, I'd pass.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony you breed the dog , not the pedigree and not the titles. Kira has had issues being soft in temperament , and on the nervous fear-reactive side . You have spent a great deal of time getting advice how to deal with these issues . These are not desirable .
YOU are making a difference in the dogs future - but what if someone were not so patient or had personal identity tied up and was embarrased by the "wimpy" GSD - and took it out on the dog through lack of understanding , bad training -
Kira is lucky to have you.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> IMO, if they thought they wanted progeny, they should have put the girls on contracts or co-owns or whatever breeders do.
> 
> It's really not fair to go to a family who got the dog as a family pet and ask to breed said pet.
> You're not set up to be a breeder nor are you (probably) interested in it.
> ...


My contract gives me full breeding rights. I was the one that chose to keep in contact with the breeder. I their defense, they are NOT in any way pressuring me to do anything. The subject came up in small talk, and they made an offer to take care of everything.
The subject also came up because I had inquired about Kira's upcoming first cycle, and whether or not they favor spaying at a particular age.
It was more of an education process on my part.

It was small talk. Nothing formal. If you read my original post, I was more curious whether they would actually breed a non titled dog.
If push came to shove, they may not even be interested.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nothing wrong with not spaying her and leaving your options open. As to why they want to breed her, who knows maybe they are interested in seeing what that litter can produce? The results aren't going to change just because the dog has a title. The disadvantage of breeding a dog without titles and never titling the dog is that the progeny won't ever be eligible for VA ratings, but that's pretty rare anyway (they'd need at least three generations of titled, surveyed dogs in the pedigree for a VA rating).


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Titles don't make the dog. They may help "prove" what you already know about your dog but that is all they do, IMHO! 

You look at the whole dog IME, does the dog work? Can the dog work well? How is overall temperament? Structure? Health testing? 

There is much more to breeding than to titles, to some people's dismay! 

My own GSD has been used once and is going to be used again soon as a stud dog. He is not currently titled in Schutzhund/IPO but he does have other titles and is a personal protection dog(we are working towards IPO titles), has great health testing results and a temperament to die for. Some people are upset that I have let people use him. But honestly it's none of anyone's business but yours, the breeders and the stud dog owner. Not everyone is going to breed with every breeding even one done responsibly.

Work with your breeder and go from there. A mentor is a great thing to have! I have a couple and would be lost without them!!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> Anthony you breed the dog , not the pedigree and not the titles. *Kira has had issues being soft in temperament , and on the nervous fear-reactive side . * You have spent a great deal of time getting advice how to deal with these issues . These are not desirable .
> YOU are making a difference in the dogs future - but what if someone were not so patient or had personal identity tied up and was embarrased by the "wimpy" GSD - and took it out on the dog through lack of understanding , bad training -
> Kira is lucky to have you.


I don't know that a dog with this type temperament should be bred, regardless of who her sire is.

Who would be screening the potential puppy owners? That is a huge responsibility to know each and every pup were going to a home as great as you've given Kira.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Honestly, I didn't see that post. 

If she is truly soft/nervous/fear-reactive, I personally wouldn't breed her. Temperament is a BIG thing and I wouldn't want to breed a nervous fear-reactive dog. However, I have never met her and thus I don't really know how she is, only what is posted. Have her temperament tested and evaluated by multiple people then go from there.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> From what I gather, it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him..



I was in a drop in class a couple weeks ago and the trainer had a border collie and tons of titles on her dogs, dogs she trained, etc. During our conversation I found out that her dog now is part of a litter from a world champion dog 20 years ago(from what I understand he is the number 1 border collie ever)..they froze the sperm and picked a mom Oddly enough 20 years ago when this dog was alive this dog produced males and females, but when they bred his sperm(2 years ago) this time it only produced males. So the point would be there are ways to keep the pedigree going without breeding your dog if the dog is titled and known


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

VonKromeHaus said:


> If she is truly soft/nervous/fear-reactive, I personally wouldn't breed her. Temperament is a BIG thing and I wouldn't want to breed a nervous fear-reactive dog. However, I have never met her and thus I don't really know how she is, only what is posted.



Plus, she's only 9 months right? I wouldn't rule a dog in or out based on temperament at nine months. 

*IF* there was any chance I'd be interested in breeding, I wouldn't alter my dog that young. Not saying I approve of the dog and condone the breeding, but personally I like to keep my options open. As it stands I have two intact dogs, one pretty well titled and probably earning three new titles before the summer, and have never had anyone seriously solicit a breeding. I don't like to make decisions or limit my options based on future hypotheticals.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

She is only 9 months? Then I would not alter her right away. I would wait, have her evaluated and then decide at a later date. You have a long ways to go before you can even health test her so there is plenty of time to worry, think and gather information. 

I didn't realize she was still a baby!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is also still time to get her conformation ratings, and possible titles...if breeding is a possible goal, why not?


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Plus, she's only 9 months right? I wouldn't rule a dog in or out based on temperament at nine months.
> 
> *IF* there was any chance I'd be interested in breeding, I wouldn't alter my dog that young. Not saying I approve of the dog and condone the breeding, but personally I like to keep my options open. As it stands I have two intact dogs, one pretty well titled and probably earning three new titles before the summer, and have never had anyone seriously solicit a breeding. I don't like to make decisions or limit my options based on future hypotheticals.


I agree with you.

Kira is a bit soft. However, in her defense, she had a bad experience as a young pup. It was traumatic for her, and it's taken some work to keep her confidence level high.

She is only 9 months, and she's only a family companion. Right now, we're still in obedience, and she just took a pre test for her canine citizens test, and passed. Her next step for me, is to get her started in agility. She seems to love the agility course, and gets fired up when she sees the course.

I wouldn't breed her, if I couldn't give her the attention, and didn't have the knowledge to give her 100% support and comfort during the process.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

She is of course, important during the breeding process, but the pups she produces are a *huge* responsibility. That is the big picture....not just supporting and comforting her during her reproduction.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> She is of course, important during the breeding process, but the pups she produces are a *huge* responsibility. That is the big picture....not just supporting and comforting her during her reproduction.


Yes, another reason why I wouldn't assume such responsibility.

As I said... It was just small talk.

Thanks for taking part in the thread. It was informative.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well time is on your side, so just keep on training, enjoying and working with her!


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Something to really think about down the road if breeding her comes up again:

What happens if she DIES? (Because lets face it, it CAN happen.) You bought the dog, then let them use her, then loose her. Are they going to compensate you? IMO, it really isn't right for a breeder to sell a puppy outright, (meaning NOT on a co-ownership) then ask the owner to breed it for nothing.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BlackGSD said:


> Something to really think about down the road if breeding her comes up again:
> 
> What happens if she DIES? (Because lets face it, it CAN happen.) You bought the dog, then let them use her, then loose her. Are they going to compensate you? IMO, it really isn't right for a breeder to sell a puppy outright, (meaning NOT on a co-ownership) then ask the owner to breed it for nothing.


:thumbup:


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I was under the impression that he wanted to do the litter? Maybe I need to go back read the OP. If it is solely the breeder inquiring about it, I would most certainly want an iron clad contract stating you would be compensated appropriately for any damages done to Kira if any! If you decide to breed her. I would also want some sort of compensation for letting them use her. That makes it more of a "lease" agreement to me, they would be leasing your bitch from you to breed her.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm not how or where I gave the impression that I would be breeding her without compensation.
Why would I do that?

Of course, I would protect myself and Kira if I were to entertain breeding her. I understand the ramifications.


----------



## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Or are doing other things with the dogs where titles are not needed; police work, working farm, etc.


Yup. Just because a dog isn't titled doesn't mean the owner is lazy.

Also, I have seen plenty of titled dogs that were jokes. I would never want pups by them, yet they're titled. I think it's important to look beyond the titles and look at the dog itself.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have to agree with the concern about the nerve issue. Really good nerved dogs are not rattled by much - even trauma as a puppy. I also don't think her attack was really that severe. If I recall this was just a rough and tumble not something that actually injured your dog and sent her to the vet.

That said, I have definitely heard about people breeding WHILE working on titles simply because if may be harder for a female to conceive if she is older. I also believe the show dog world is more open to breeding females with lower leve titles than the working dog world.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> I have to agree with the concern about the nerve issue. Really good nerved dogs are not rattled by much - even trauma as a puppy. I also don't think her attack was really that severe. If I recall this was just a rough and tumble not something that actually injured your dog and sent her to the vet.


Yes like Nancy and Carmen are saying. At 2 months, 8 months, a year, 5 years, whatever, temperament is temperament. They just don't snap out of that, and when you talk about "recovery time" from an incident...generally you mean it in terms of minutes or seconds, not months. At least that's what I thought.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Her father is 2011 world seiger, and her mother is also tilted." and later "
it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him"

the question of breeding seems to hinge around the notoriety of the sire . Check his name on the pedigree data base and see how many progeny he already has . I guarantee you that this is not rare bloodlines needing to be conserved . In truth the excitement is the seeming prestige and vanity , which makes for easy marketability , demand and for the breeder, $$$'s .
Beauty is in the utility . Show me the dog ready to take on the challenges of the world .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

without derailing the topic , Yes JeanK. I've had pups evaluated at 9 months and accepted for police work , Keno -- Metro Toronto 10 plus years service, Purina Hall Famer , Flint 10 plus years service Lindsay, Stark certified at 11 months - Buffalo - dual, later Silva bomb Toronto. And more . 
I am certain Cliff can provide a list.

Temperament . So very very important. All the issues on the forum seem to center around reactive dogs dealing with not unnormal situations , perceiving threat , and either going in to avoidance or taking a defensive swipe .

I see pictures posted of dogs and I spot the fragility , the worried concerned look in the eye. All of this will have implications on training , retention of training , thresholds , careful management.

Then I see bratty , take on the world pups - Wolfstraums current litter , Robins beauty little black Noche . These dogs are going to roll with the punches and come out on top without being affected .

The temperament is there right from the start .


----------



## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Plus, she's only 9 months right? I wouldn't rule a dog in or out based on temperament at nine months.



Why not? This is her genetics! If a good trainer can make a nerve bag dog look good should it be breed? I would say no. If it was my dog of course I would try to work through the issues and title the dog if possible. But a breeder needs to be honest with what they are dealing with and not just what can be accomplished through training.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the question of breeding seems to hinge around the notoriety of the sire . Check his name on the pedigree data base and see how many progeny he already has . I guarantee you that this is not rare bloodlines needing to be conserved . In truth the excitement is the seeming prestige and vanity , which makes for easy marketability , demand and for the breeder, $$$'s .


That's exactly what I was thinking. They shouldn't be trying to get as *many* progeny as possible out of that sire, they should be trying to get the *best* progeny possible out of that sire.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Before the Martin Brothers, didn't the SV actually restrict how many times a stud could be bred to prevent bottlenecks.

Of course the working lines have ALSO certainly been focusing on popular studs......different focus but overused I guess non theless can create the same problems of too much of one thing..........

Of course Vinca has a very INTERESTING mother line which I have asked about before...probably not so well known because it was all Sweedish after 1921, but it goes back on PDB to before Horand...If I had a female I would be inclined to consider it........


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The question should never be "Should a non-titled dog be bred".....as the simple answer should be "Only good specimens of the breed be bred"....
The problem is.....most owners/breeders AND enthusiasts, actually do believe that their dogs are *good specimens*......_it's the honest process of elimination that is hardest....JMO_
Personal requirements, beliefs, standards...are all as individual as the dogs themselves.....and the "theory" that Titled parentage, always means "worthy" offspring....is often the most incorrect based standard of all.....
again...JMO


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

So much information. 
You guys are amazing. 

I agree with all of you. 

And yes, I do agree that too many breeders do try to get as many progeny as they can from a particular sire. 

Now of course, this is nothing more than an uneducated assumption on my part. 
I do not know the business of breeding or proper training. 
Nor am I able to read a dog as well as you guys. 

Good read.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> "Her father is 2011 world seiger, and her mother is also tilted." and later "
> it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him"
> 
> the question of breeding seems to hinge around the notoriety of the sire . Check his name on the pedigree data base and see how many progeny he already has . I guarantee you that this is not rare bloodlines needing to be conserved . In truth the excitement is the seeming prestige and vanity , which makes for easy marketability , demand and for the breeder, $$$'s .
> Beauty is in the utility . Show me the dog ready to take on the challenges of the world .


This forum needs a "like" button.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Right now, Kira is all about $$$$ to them. Sad but true.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Right now, Kira is all about $$$$ to them. Sad but true.


I usually do not speak up but this really irks me.

Do you know the breeder?

Do you know the intentions of their breeding practice?

Have you sat down and discussed specifically the plans they have/want with Kira?

The OP hasn't even had those conversations regarding his dog with them, so how is it that complete strangers are making these accusations like they are truth or fact?

The OP has stated SEVERAL times that this was just a casual conversation between two people. Nothing was discussed in detail.

Does the breeder even know the issues Kira had as a puppy?

I think people need to stop speculating and starting doing some research and find out information for themselves before they start making comments on the internet.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> So, money, then?
> 
> Unless you (or they) are willing to train and title your girl, I'd pass.


This was said on page 3 and you didn't even question it!!
Since Kira has no titles and they want her intact - and all this came up since-- 



> it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as *2011 World Seiger winner*, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him.


Why else would they want to breed a soft, untitled bitch who is pretty much lounging around as a housepet??

(that's not to say Anthony does _nothing _with her, I know he works hard daily training her).

Of course "2011 World Seiger winner sired" is going to be worth some bucks, without that precious title, I doubt any of this would have come up.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Yes, but THAT is my point.

This is all HEARSAY, not coming from the breeder themselves.

I am questioning the comment(s) about it being for money, you just happen to make the comment last.

How do we even know what the breeder was/is going to propose to Anthony? How do we know they even know about her soft temperament? How do we even know she has a soft temperament? Because a new owner with a few seconds of video showed us? Let's have someone qualified to assess her do so and then have the breeder discuss his/her plans with Kira - maybe there won't be any after discussing Kira in depth and having the breeder assess her themselves.

**ETA** I am sorry but I just don't see how people on the internet who doesn't know the dog, doesn't know the breeder or the owner can make these types of assumptions as if they are fact and truth. This forum is turning into a really negative place to be.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

no one should assume anything....about anyone.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> no one should assume anything....about anyone.


Exactly my point.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> **ETA** I am sorry but I just don't see how people on the internet who doesn't know the dog, doesn't know the breeder or the owner can make these types of assumptions as if they are fact and truth. This forum is turning into a really negative place to be.


They're not assumptions, they're speculations at best. We have no idea what the breeder is thinking. Until Anthony talks to the breeder at length about it and tells us what she says, we don't have much to go on. I don't know who the breeder is, so I can't automatically trust their judgment. This forum does have a tendency to come up with worst case scenarios, which is part of the whole decision-making process (at least for me).


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Speculations, accusations, whatever they are labeled, people need to hear it from the horses mouth before making comments about people they don't know.

I think we can all agree to that as intelligent adult members.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, in that case, this forum should not exist, nor should any. 
Anthony wanted answers or at least ideas. We're throwing them out there.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

robinhuerta said:


> no one should assume anything....about anyone.


I agree. It's one thing to offer advice, it's another to assume motives. I think all of us who has owned an intact animal has had the "Wouldn't it be neat. . . . wouldn't it be fun. . . .what do you think the puppies would be like" conversations. 

It's a long way from, "We might want to consider possibly breeding her in the future" all the way to the serious nitty-gritty negotiations.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's true...I agree...but then again, the breeder sold this dog to a pet home, and it seems rather...strange to recommend they not spay her so she may be bred.
Perhaps she's the epitome of what the breed should be, perhaps not.
But they should have put her in a home that understood she may be called upon at some point to carry on her lines.
That's what I go back to, not even talking about titles or temperament.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not about Kira~~I don't think it is a big deal for a breeder to ask for a litter from a female they've produced. If they are keeping tabs on pups achievements and decide she is exceptionally breed-worthy, then asking the owner to help is something to consider/not an issue if you have a great relationship and trust the breeder. The litter should be under the breeders kennel name and the breeder would be responsible for placement of the pups along with the whelping. Of course the owner should be compensated with an agreed amount.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Even if sold to a "pet home"? Anthony, was there mention of this at the time of sale?


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

OK, let's clear things up for you guys.....

I keep in touch (via Facebook) with the breeder, and co-breeder of some of her dogs. 
We speak about temperament, some training tips, feeding, etc...
I enjoy watching them advance their dogs through Shutzhund, and exchange photos.

1) Any discussion about breeding has been in la de da...

2) My contract allows full breeding rights, if I chose to do so.

3) The breeder NEVER mentioned EVER getting in touch with me, for the purpose of breeding a dog with good pedigree. It was MY decision to keep in touch with the breeder. If I didn't have FB, I'd probably never speak to any of them. We initially purchased Kira because we wanted a GS with a good temperament around children. This breeder prides himself on temperament, and others recommended her for the exact reason I purchased Kira.

4) When I purchased Kira, the breeder made it very clear that he preferred homing her to a Shutzhund owner. We went back and forth a few times with different dogs, and my wife wanted Kira. It took some coaxing on my part to get her. 

5) I have no immediate intention to consider breeding her. The breeder saw her pictures, and feels that she's beautiful. It came up as.... "If you ever want to breed her, give me a call".

Only "small talk"

My question was....

Would it make sense for a breaded to break his chain of titled bitches and sires, to breed with a pretty dog with a good pedigree?


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Well, in that case, this forum should not exist, nor should any.
> Anthony wanted answers or at least ideas. We're throwing them out there.


Actually, this is an example of answers and ideas:



carmspack said:


> Anthony you breed the dog , not the pedigree and not the titles.


and this:



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Yes like Nancy and Carmen are saying. At 2 months, 8 months, a year, 5 years, whatever, temperament is temperament. They just don't snap out of that, and when you talk about "recovery time" from an incident...generally you mean it in terms of minutes or seconds, not months. At least that's what I thought.


as a couple of examples out of many. 

This:



msvette2u said:


> Right now, Kira is all about $$$$ to them. Sad but true.


is an attack on someone's integrity out of the blue.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

carmspack said:


> "Her father is 2011 world seiger, and her mother is also tilted." and later "
> it has much to do with Kira's sire. There's much talk about him as 2011 World Seiger winner, and I would have to guess that they'd like to get as much progeny as possible out of him"
> 
> the question of breeding seems to hinge around the notoriety of the sire . Check his name on the pedigree data base and see how many progeny he already has . I guarantee you that this is not rare bloodlines needing to be conserved* . In truth the excitement is the seeming prestige and vanity , which makes for easy marketability , demand and for the breeder, $$$'s .*
> Beauty is in the utility . Show me the dog ready to take on the challenges of the world .


Thank you for the explanation. And this?


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I really don't see the big deal that the breeder would ask. What does it hurt to ask something? 

As others have said, it is a long way from asking a question to finalizing details. I think the assumptions being tossed around by the breeder is sickening. We have no idea what the breeder truly wants. 

It is sad that this part of the forum is also being taken over by the negativity. I mean heaven forbid, someone ask about a breeding question in the breeding section. Really sad. 

Anthony- It is ultimately your decision and your breeders decision. My advice is to contact a good breeder different from your own and ask them questions. A fresh set of eyes is always a good thing and it will help you get better less negative information. I have 3 breeders that I e-mail with on a consistent basis that help me make decisions and give me advice. I take what they all say, mull it over and come to my own conclusions!


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

It actually is not uncommon for wonderful dogs from excellent breedings to be sold to "pet homes".....after all, that is where the majority of puppies are living.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> My question was....
> 
> Would it make sense for a breeder to break his chain of titled bitches and sires, to breed with a pretty dog with a good pedigree?



Yes, it does make sense. It depends on the individual dog and their qualities. IMO- You look at the dog first and foremost, then the health testing, then the pedigree and then everything else. That is JMO.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

robinhuerta said:


> It actually is not uncommon for wonderful dogs from excellent breedings to be sold to "pet homes".....after all, that is where the majority of puppies are living.


It is nice to hear you say this, because I thought the same thing actually.
My only question was, is it typical to have someone contact you about breeding your pet. Or is that discussed at the time of sale?


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Thank you for the explanation. And this?


The wording implies that it is a personal opinion, and given as a possible explanation as to why the the breeder is interested in breeding Kira. Not stated as a true fact. 

I happen to agree that with many of the opinions here, including yours, but watch the wording so you are not attacking and throwing accusations around as a done deal. 

The word "seeming" in the quote you posted allows for a margin of error, a polite and gracious way to allow that there could be other reason outside of the prestige of the sire's name to breed Kira, perhaps some very valid ones. It is treating others, even those we do not know, with the same consideration as we would wish others would treat our own ideas and beliefs. 

A single choice of a word, a sentence structure, can make a big difference in how a post comes off.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gotcha


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would think sometimes you really don't know until they start to mature, do you? Sometimes a dog other than the "pick" winds up being the "winner"

This sounds like a sidebar discussion -- for all we know the breeder may think so highly of Kira that he would offer to put basic titles on her for breeding *if* that choice came up. We really CANNOT speculate on an apparently simple discussion that has gone nowhrere and has not really had follow up.

THere is a lot of time between now and when she would actually be bred, if she was. .......


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well she's certainly not difficult to look at 
And the breeder is trying to get Anthony out on the field to see how she does there.

I guess my only thing is it's just so...weird. I look at my own dogs and I know they are pets (and pets first/only - they are all altered) and wondering if I'd want any of them to have or sire a litter. 
Just...weirdness (to me anyway).


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Msvette2u...it's not "typical"...but it can & does happen.
USUALLY (speaking for myself only)....IF I sell an exceptional female/male, I will be honest and tell the buyer what my *expectations* for the puppy is.....(_meaning)...I will let them know just how nice their puppy actually is....and ask them AT THAT TIME....IF they would consider BEFORE altering their dog, that we may use the dog for breeding in the future (if at that time) we consider the dog....*breed worthy*._
_Of course.....any costs $$ incurred ie...x-rays, titles (if warranted), health checks, stud service, whelping...etc..etc...would be OUR expenses...unless the owner wanted financial compensation from the litter....then we would have to negotiate a beneficial/fair agreement between both buyer and breeder._

Once a puppy is sold...it belongs to the buyer, ultimately...it is the owners' choice, what is done with their dog. JMO

ETA:.....If we "use" a dog for breeding that is "owned" by someone else.....we use a "lease agreement", and the owner has a form of compensation....*whatever is agreed upon*.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> USUALLY (speaking for myself only)....IF I sell an exceptional female/male, I will be honest and tell the buyer what my *expectations* for the puppy is.....(meaning)...I will let them know just how nice their puppy actually is....and ask them AT THAT TIME....IF they would consider BEFORE altering their dog, that we may use the dog for breeding in the future (if at that time) we consider the dog....*breed worthy*.


Ah, good so it doesn't just pop up out of the blue - you could have that in the back of your mind as your pup grew up. 

I just know I like my girls how they look right now...not, um, sagging at any point in their lives.
I know that seems petty but I've seen worse!

Adopters are amazingly intolerant when it comes to recent mama dogs who are done nursing but very saggy there. I always reassure them it'll tone back up and it does, but it's never back to the way it was before a litter. 

I also tell them to explain to anyone who may stare (yes people are that rude) that she was _just _adopted from a rescue


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> Adopters are amazingly intolerant when it comes to recent mama dogs who are done nursing but very saggy there. I always reassure them it'll tone back up and it does, but it's never back to the way it was before a litter.


I've noticed that too. Adopters do *not* want a saggy-boobie'd girl. They're also not fond of scrotal sacs on recently-neutered boys.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> I've noticed that too. Adopters do *not* want a saggy-boobie'd girl. They're also not fond of scrotal sacs on recently-neutered boys.


Oh you did go there :laugh:

I remember asking our _farm _vet about Tristan, if his...leftovers (there, thought of a description finally) would ever go away! She said "yes, eventually it should"! And it did. Whew


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"We initially purchased Kira because we wanted a GS with a good temperament around children. This breeder prides himself on temperament, and others recommended her for the exact reason I purchased Kira.

4) When I purchased Kira, the breeder made it very clear that he preferred homing her to a Shutzhund owner"

Anthony , I applaud you for the sensitivity that you have for your dog and the effort you are putting in to her .
So please do not think that this is taking anything away from you.

The dog though, this is what is being discussed, has had a long history of posts with problems . Whether it was the "dog ran into crate ANY time you corrected her" which could have been raised voice , her lack of connection -- the avoidance wanting to bolt out of the dog park, the posts of her being in the dog park with friendly dog with only intentions of playing , stared at her and she froze and then bolted to your embarrassment , and just the other day her fear reaction to a young girl house guest . 

At minimum the people you bought her from should be interested and concerned with the temperament. I think it is a really really good thing that she did NOT get sold into a schutzhund home !
That was a point I made very early on in this thread . Kira is lucky to have you.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

This thread was about breeding an untitled dog. Not about adoptions and how adopters don't want dogs with saggy boobs. Obviously Kira has a home and will have a home after/if she is bred, so there should be a problem if she develops saggy boobs since I am certain she won't be available for adoption anytime! 

I would be concerned with Kira's temperament. Spend the money have her evaluated by a behaviorist. I am not there and don't know the whole story so I will not judge her based on posts. There is a lot of things that can change and cause reactions etc. Handler/owner nerves seem to play a big role in reactions IME. Talk to your breeder, have them evaluate her if you can. Do you know how the other littermates are doing? Any temperament issues with them?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Just wanted to drop my other 2 cents I have no problem with someone breeding an untitled dog, depends on the dog for me if I'm interested, I'm not a diehard "this dog has to be titled for me to buy a puppy from" person.

That said, I think Kira is a beautiful dog 

Do I think she should be bred? Not for me to make that decision at all, but I will say she wouldn't be the first one bred by her breeder without titles, and again, not saying if she should or shouldn't.

nuff said.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

VonKromeHaus said:


> This thread was about breeding an untitled dog. Not about adoptions and how adopters don't want dogs with saggy boobs. Obviously Kira has a home and will have a home after/if she is bred, so there should be a problem if she develops saggy boobs since I am certain she won't be available for adoption anytime!



Nobody was implying Kira was up for adoption.

Some people on this forum are friends of long-standing, and sometimes jokes, personal discussion, and friendly comments get slipped into threads, then the thread gets back on track.
A friendly discussion is generally not run like a business meeting.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Nobody was implying Kira was up for adoption.
> 
> Some people on this forum are friends of long-standing, and sometimes jokes, personal discussion, and friendly comments get slipped into threads, then the thread gets back on track.
> A friendly discussion is generally not run like a business meeting.


If she is, I'm first in line!!

That said, the average pet home (not sure if Anthony considers himself average or not!) isn't prepared to deal with all the "excitement" of their pet suddenly becoming a mother.

There's a lot to think about and consider


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Emorre- That is fine but it gets fairly frustrating when it happens over and over. 

In the end, it is Anthony's decision. Not everyone will agree with a breeding, you have to take the good and bad, the advice with a grain of salt and make your own decisions. I personally won't breed to anything I wouldn't keep a puppy out of or to a dog that can not work. While my dog isn't titled in IPO yet, we are working towards them. To me that makes a difference. You have a lot of things ahead of you anyway before you can make an educated decision since she isn't old enough to health test yet. If she hasn't been DM tested, that is something that you can do now!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And let's face it. Even a lot of working line breeders in the US breed a lot of bitches that don't have anything except for the BH. So technically, if all they have is a bh, they don't have a title ergo, they breed an untitled bitch.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh, well there's a whole ton more who don't even have a BH, so there ya go 

Maybe titles don't make the dog, but it's nice to see them all the same, to know the dog _could_ be titled!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Oh, well there's a whole ton more who don't even have a BH, so there ya go
> 
> Maybe titles don't make the dog, but it's nice to see them all the same, to know the dog _could_ be titled!


Pretty much any dog can be titled, one way or the other. That's why you can't look at the title itself. You have to look at the whole picture and know what exactly you are looking at.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

If the dog is within the standard in ALL categories (ahem, temperament is one) and she has a solid genetic background then who needs titles?
Does this bitch meet all the criteria?
JMVHO


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I can think of a number of reasons. 

First off it's an indicator of workability
Secondly it's an indicator that the breeder is actively working his dogs and does something with them. 
Third, it shows consistency in the pedigree. It's an anchor and you know what kind of level the dog was competing or working at. 
Fourth, if the dog has been actively worked on the field the dog was seen by many people and these people can give you a witness report. Knowledgeable people see your dog and confirm what you already know and can pass it on via word to mouth.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

don't get me wrong, I think titles are great, and applaud all those breeders who strive to make these dogs what they should be, but I wouldn't rule out a dog because it wasn't titled. Just my thing. I know what I want, temperament and health are tops on my list, titles are a bonus, but if they aren't there, and I want it, I'll get it.

I have had one gsd out of untitled parents, and well that girl was #4 in akc rankings in agility, granted it ws quite some years ago, and maybe most dont consider 'agility' a title of importance but it was an accomplishment to be proud of.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

A dog working towards titles but that isn't titled yet/a dog that is not titled or working towards it can be just as good and in same cases better than a dog with titles. 

A title is a piece of paper, that states your dog did good on that day, at that club in that situation! They are good to have and I am striving towards titles with my dogs. But at the end of the day with or without titles, he is the same dog. 

I will always strive to achieve titles but they are not the be all end all. A dog's working ability and temperament is much more important to me with titles or without. 

It is up to the 2 people doing a breeding to look at it objectively, have a good understanding of things and look at the whole dog good and bad. If you don't like a breeding, then don't buy a dog from it!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I can think of a number of reasons.
> 
> First off it's an indicator of workability
> Secondly it's an indicator that the breeder is actively working his dogs and does something with them.
> ...


Thank you for your informative post.
I think there has to be a standard, and if a dog isn't conformationally correct, or temperamentally correct, it will come out in the long run by lack of titles as well.
Who is to say what is what, where is the standard otherwise?
Do we throw all standards and all titles out and just do what we want to because we want to do it?

I mean it's a free country but still...who'd want a puppy from untitled stock over a puppy from titled stock when the cost is the same for both puppies? 

Isn't this how GSDs came to be in the plight they are in?


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I actually know of a few people that are rather large in the IPO world, who chose a puppy from an untitled dog instead of one with titles. 

I can see where someone who has NO idea about IPO would be set on titles. But when you are in the sport, you know that not all titles are gained legitimately. You also realize that sometimes things get in the way of getting a dog titled. 

Who is someone to say that someone elses' dog isn't good enough to breed just because the dog lacks a title? Presumptuous much? A dog can be to the standard without a title IMHO.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> A dog working towards titles but that isn't titled yet/a dog that is not titled or working towards it can be just as good and in same cases better than a dog with titles.
> 
> A title is a piece of paper, that states your dog did good on that day, at that club in that situation! They are good to have and I am striving towards titles with my dogs. But at the end of the day with or without titles, he is the same dog.
> 
> ...


That is correct. However, a title is not completely worthless either.


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Oh no! I am not saying that a title is completely worthless! They do have some weight in a lot of things. One of the reasons that I will be striving towards a title till I just can't anymore is because I want that piece of paper!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of looking at the title, look at the breeder and what they are producing! I know a couple of breeders that know pedigrees and aren't actively trialing/titling~though they do train. But they are producing dogs that go to handlers who excel with them. Look at the big picture, not just the snapshot of a title. Sending dogs off to Germany to earn titles doesn't impress me as much as a breeder who is knowledgeable of pedigree matching and their reputation to produce good sound dogs for many different lifestyles and endeavors.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Instead of looking at the title, look at the breeder and what they are producing! I know a couple of breeders that know pedigrees and aren't actively trialing/titling~though they do train. But they are producing dogs that go to handlers who excel with them. Look at the big picture, not just the snapshot of a title. Sending dogs off to Germany to earn titles doesn't impress me as much as a breeder who is knowledgeable of pedigree matching and their reputation to produce good sound dogs for many different lifestyles and endeavors.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

At least in the US that is actually possible. Germany, not so much.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Pheww...

After reading this thread, I need a glass of wine.
Also, based on the internet evaluations, I'm thinking maybe I should trade my dog in. She sounds like a reject.


----------



## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Pheww...
> 
> After reading this thread, I need a glass of wine.
> Also, based on the internet evaluations, I'm thinking maybe I should trade my dog in. She sounds like a reject.


Most of us have dogs who are not breed worthy. Or maybe I should only speak for myself Doesn't make them rejects especially if the dog was gotten as a pet. But I do frown on dogs with temperament issues or health issues etc. being used for breeding. I would never get a dog from a person who I knew had breed dogs with questionable temperament no matter how much I liked the particular pair that was being breed at the moment. I just wouldn't deal with someone who would purposely do that for obvious reasons or who did it because they cannot accurately judge temperament because then they have no business breeding at all.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Anthony, you should know by now that bringing up a hypothetical breeding question will result in a 300 page thread that veers off the actual question into 70 different directions.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yah, like how you're gonna deal with her sagging boobies?? 



And ditto to what Clyde said!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony she's not a reject . You got the dog as a pet . When it comes to breeding there has to be critical evaluation . I question the breeders who like Clyde said "because they cannot accurately judge temperament " . What were they thinking in wanting to save her for a schutzhund home. There would have been the situation where she would have been traded in . It would not be fair to the dog to subject her to the pressure of training and stress of being confronted by a decoy . 
We can only judge by comments you have made since you got the dog , from her hiding under the table at dog park to being "spooked" by your guest in the house . 
You got her as a pet . You can be forgiving. Go to some trials or training clubs and see the dynamics of dogs at work . How would Kira fare?

Breeding is about improvement .

Look , you have a black and red female with a status sire . You'll be stopped by people on the street who will show interest in your dog , be interested in a pup, even have a male that they may offer to do the deed .
You'll have to wrestle with all the issues and come to a conclusion that you can live with.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony she's not a reject . You got the dog as a pet . When it comes to breeding there has to be critical evaluation . I question the breeders who like Clyde said "because they cannot accurately judge temperament " . What were they thinking in wanting to save her for a schutzhund home. There would have been the situation where she would have been traded in . It would not be fair to the dog to subject her to the pressure of training and stress of being confronted by a decoy .
> We can only judge by comments you have made since you got the dog , from her hiding under the table at dog park to being "spooked" by your guest in the house .
> You got her as a pet . You can be forgiving. Go to some trials or training clubs and see the dynamics of dogs at work . How would Kira fare?
> 
> ...


Is a pup that was pinned at 3 months considered to had a bad temperament? In my opinion ANY pup that gets pinned, and repeatedly shaken like a rag doll for a few minutes would be a bit apprehensive around other dogs.
That's why I asked the questions "how to handle the hiding under the table".
.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that temperament is genetic. If a dog has a bad experience as a pup, it doesn't change the dogs genetic temperament. It changes the way the dog sees other dogs.

Carmen, in your defense, there's only so much judgement you can make, based off a few posts in a social forum. I've had "email arguments" because of a misinterpretation of the text.
Kira passed her Canine Citizen test. She's active in agility, and is tops in her class. She's used by her trainers to "lead by example" for the other trainees.

Whatever is considered "good temperament", is clearly shining through, and her outgoing personality is evident.
Getting "spooked" in your own home by a stranger will happen to ANY dog, and is not an indication of fear.
I'm seeing just the opposite. I'm seeing a very confident dog, that doesn't hesitate to do anything.
I think she went through certain "issues" because of her early experience with an aggressive shepherd, and because of my efforts, has gotten through it.

Her agility trainers can't believe she's only 9 months.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Is a pup that was pinned at 3 months considered to had a bad temperament? In my opinion ANY pup that gets pinned, and repeatedly shaken like a rag doll for a few minutes would be a bit apprehensive around other dogs.
> That's why I asked the questions "how to handle the hiding under the table".
> .
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that temperament is genetic. If a dog has a bad experience as a pup, it doesn't change the dogs genetic temperament. It changes the way the dog sees other dogs.
> ...



My golden retriever was attacked by a Rott(the Rott had his whole mouth around my dogs head) at about the same age and after a couple weeks of going out and about he did fine. He was just starting obedience school and the trainer had a Rott, so he faced this Rott soon after his attack. I have had several dogs in my home since then and he's been in contact with several with no problems...all he wants to do is play He also went on to get his CGC!! There is nothing wrong with a dog that has had trauma in its life to take time to adjust to it.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I just want to make a quick point about the CGC in general. 

It doesn't show anything other than the fact that the dog will respond to the owner. It doesn't show good temperament. I have had 2 fear aggressive GSD/mixes who passed easily. I have a fear aggressive brain injured dog who passed, not as easily, but who tested and passed the night 2 "normal" GSDs did not. 

I just hate to see that test used as anything other than as an indication that a dog has been trained to do the things in the test. It's nice! It's good people take it and work towards it. It's just not a temperament indicator.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I just want to make a quick point about the CGC in general.
> 
> It doesn't show anything other than the fact that the dog will respond to the owner. It doesn't show good temperament. I have had 2 fear aggressive GSD/mixes who passed easily. I have a fear aggressive brain injured dog who passed, not as easily, but who tested and passed the night 2 "normal" GSDs did not.
> 
> I just hate to see that test used as anything other than as an indication that a dog has been trained to do the things in the test. It's nice! It's good people take it and work towards it. It's just not a temperament indicator.


I agree. The CGC is not an indicator for temperament. If anything, it validated a certain level of stability around other dogs, and people. Nothing more.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anthony. 
She is just a puppy.

You ask for opinions from people who have not seen her in real life and repeatedly mention issues that point to some weakness in temperament beyond the puppy scuffle with no puncture wounds and I am sure seconds felt like minutes..... Issues also having nothing to do with dogs. Having owned several GSDs and some with issues and two with stellar tempermants, including my current puppy who is constantly blowing me away with his attitude towards the world, I realize how important it is and how we take for granted and accept less than we should demand because we think it is the norm. We are talking about dogs that should be fully capable, hardwired, to work under gunfire. [not after extensive conditioning to it but to take whaever comes their way in the real world without having to be socialized to it first]

I guess what I am saying is, we know how much you love Kira and how important she is too you but she is just a puppy and the odds are not really all that much better than most of our dogs. And why does it seem to be so important that she is? She looks like a pretty little thing for a showlines dog and she meets your needs as a family member. Isn't that enough?

*If she is truly all that you think she is then go out and work her, title her, koer her and do a real temperament test that pushes the dog and puts her under pressure.* The CGC is a meaningless test of the dog and even more meaningless when it is given to a puppy before the true agression can come out. My little dog agressive female flew through it with flying colors as a 2 year old adult. When we evaluate team dogs for temperament issues, they are on a stake out with the owner nowhere in sight. FWIW, we started doing stake out tests after realizing that the CGC did not show us the true dog.

Edit. I posted while you were posting.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anthony8858 said:


> Getting "spooked" in your own home by a stranger will happen to ANY dog, and is not an indication of fear..


How did you come to that conclusion? 

Actually I have had a fearful dog raised from 8 weeks old, and he was never spooked in the comfort zone of his own home...Though outside was a different story..and we had kids and all kinds of people (including two in wheelchairs) come into our home...

Anything NEW was a challenge for him. We managed him by extensive socialization and to most folks he seemed to be a normal dog but he had to be socialized to new things.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Nancy,
This was already discussed in another thread. 

I can't imagine a dog quietly sitting in a room, and a total stranger suddenly appears from the basement and just stands there 20 feet away in another room, and not bark. 
It just seems like a natural response.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok, I was thinking of some other threads. ......... I had not even read that one. You ask for opinions - you get them. Take from then what you choose.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread just little bits and pieces-but if you trust your breeder why not have a discussion with her when the time comes and if you are out doing things with your dog you will meet people who have been in the dog world for a while-you will know what their experience is and you can ask them their opinion-You don't really know what the experience is of some of the people post on this thread or even who they are really....Some of the responses have been ridiculous-how does anyone know if the breeder is breeding for money and if they are doing it well whose business is it Its nice that your breeder has expressed an interest in breeding your dog-hope things work out for you


----------



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I can say that my dogs would rush over to the person to investigate. They may have barked at the person depending on the exact situation. 

Trauma can affect a puppy. I personally feel that a solid puppy will take a lot less time to recover than a puppy with some underlying temperament issues. I am NOT saying this is the case with Kira as I have not met her in person. 

I will say that when my APBT puppy was 3 months old, 2 Siberian Huskies attacked her, one had her by her little head. It was more traumatic for me than it was for her. I took her to the vet and she was her normal self with other dogs. An incident like that can make this breed really dog aggressive in some cases. Just 2 weeks ago, a Rottweiler attacked her. Picked her up be her side. Thankfully she went right back to being her normal self after each attack, it didn't take weeks or special handling. A dog with a really good temperament should roll with the punches IMHO. 

That said, I have never met Kira, don't know her temperament and can't judge her off some internet posts. My advice is to still get her temperament tested and have some knowledgable people look at her!


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Also, based on the internet evaluations, I'm thinking maybe I should trade my dog in. She sounds like a reject.


Don't take that attitude. 

All of us here have "reject" dogs, if you want to call them that. In fact I'd argue that 98% of GSDs are "reject" dogs. Luka was sold to me as a "reject", a very nice dog who just wasn't strong enough for sport, and therefore not for breeding. It doesn't make her any less valuable to me, or any less worthy of love, attention, and care, and the best that I can give her, just as your Kira does.

No dog is perfect, but ideally, you want to be breed the very BEST to the very BEST. Selecting breeding animals is like getting into Harvard or Yale. It SHOULD be difficult. Breeding dogs should be tested and challenged. If they can pass the tests and prove equal to the challenges, then yes, they should be bred. But it's dang few that make it, out of all the GSDs in the world. 

Sure, you can breed the "okay" to the "okay" like BYBs do, and maybe come up with some "okay" dogs, but that is not what breed stewardship is about. Even breeding the very best to the very best, you will get some "okay" dogs in the litter, and those dogs go to pet homes--like yours--and live out wonderful lives as a loving active companion dog. In some ways, it's a better life and it's definitely an easier one! Be happy you don't have to take on the responsibilities of breeding, because they are HUGE.

Like I said, my breeder has hinted at keeping my Vinca intact for possible future breeding. However, I am not so enthusiastic about the idea. It would be a long road and I don't have the wherewithall to title, so I would have to trust my breeder and her evaluation of Vinca when she matures. Currently I am leaning toward getting her spayed, however. It's just too much responsibility. On the outside chance of breeding her, the breeder would lease her back and take care of everything from conception until all the pups are placed. I'm not a breeder.

Kira has the perfect home with you. From reading your many posts about her behavior in the past, it's clear that her nerve base is not as strong as it could be. That is okay, it doesn't make her any less worthy of love. She's a beautiful dog and like Carmen said, people will stop you on the street and want to breed with her. You have to be strong and resist this flattery. 

Our breed has a problem with nerve/fear issues, and so it's especially important to breed genetically sound, bombproof dogs with nerves of steel. All things considered, Kira has come a long way and her confidence is improving day by day, all because YOU have put a lot of time, effort, and training into it. But like others said, you can't change genetics. A dog with nerves of steel could get pinned by another dog and shaken like a ragdoll as a puppy, recover from it within seconds, and go back for more. I've seen it! Nerves of steel allow a dog to rebound from a traumatic experience like it never happened. MOST dogs, including Kira, will have some negative effect and association after trauma at a young age, so yes, you could consider it "normal" for her to have some issues to overcome after her experience. However, we don't want to breed just "normal" dogs, we want to breed extraordinary dogs, the very top percentile, the cream of the crop. They are rare, and it's even more rare that one is misidentified and sold as a pet.

Love Kira with all your heart, she is special, she is a wonderful pet with many good qualities, and she is lucky to have you.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Don't take that attitude.
> 
> All of us here have "reject" dogs, if you want to call them that. In fact I'd argue that 98% of GSDs are "reject" dogs. Luka was sold to me as a "reject", a very nice dog who just wasn't strong enough for sport, and therefore not for breeding. It doesn't make her any less valuable to me, or any less worthy of love, attention, and care, and the best that I can give her, just as your Kira does.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you.

Well said.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Is a pup that was pinned at 3 months considered to had a bad temperament?


A puppy getting "pinned" by an adult dog is normal and typical. I'd hate to tell you all the times when an adult dog whipped a puppy's behind here at our home. We get in rescues all the time and our most recent adoptee is Ruger, he defers to our adult Dachshunds because, despite the age difference, he's a puppy and they are adults, and in the dog world, that's what adult dogs do. 

I once went to let my dogs in from outside and found Tristan beating the living daylights out of Pebbles and she just got up, I got her cleaned off (dirt and saliva - no blood drawn, no injuries) and she just went on about her day. She doesn't fear Tristan, and didn't even that same day, and in fact they sleep together on the couch all the time.

Granted, the dog in question isn't living in Kira's pack, but Kira was not injured, just frightened. Mama dogs do the same thing to their puppies all day long, and again, members of their own packs will as well. 

As to the "reject" part, as everyone has said, most of them _are_ rejects. Heck all my own dogs are even _pet_ rejects!!

Someone else suggested you visit Sch training and that's a good idea. Would Kira be able to handle someone hitting her as she "attacked" them?



> Our breed has a problem with nerve/fear issues, and so it's especially important to breed genetically sound, bombproof dogs with nerves of steel.


:thumbup: 

I'd be hesitant to buy a dog from any breeder willing to breed dogs with soft temperaments. Within any working litter you're going to get pet quality dogs anyway, so you have to breed the best of the best to even produce a few with the correct temperaments and conformation to win in any ring.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Someone else suggested you visit Sch training and that's a good idea. Would Kira be able to handle someone hitting her as she "attacked" them?


It would be a great idea to take her to a SchH club and have her evaluated. Her true colors will almost certainly show.

I took Vinca to a training club when she was, I believe, 5 months old. She watched the protection with little interest until the helper "threatened" her (I do not know why he would do any defensive type work with such a young pup; we haven't been back). She barked aggressively, then bolted backward to the end of the leash, then charged back foward to the other end of the leash, she seemed confused. Another reason I am not convinced she should be bred. Ideally you would want the pup to charge forward and stay forward.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Uhm, my bitches do not pin their puppies, never. My puppies will occasionally pin other puppies. 

It's the other way around, puppies pin the dam:









Fiesty little bugger:









My puppies generally have a puppy license until they are between 4-5 months old where the dam usually lets them do anything, no corrections. And the other dogs are very careful with puppies, though just because of the size difference, I do not allow much access to puppies.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Not even when she's eating??
When puppies are 3-4 weeks (the ones we've raised anyway) mama snarls like she's going to rip their heads off when she's eating and they get close to her bowl. Almost every mama dog we've had does that though.

PS. now I'm curious so I looked it up on youtube -


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I still think it's premature to judge temperament. I'm not saying undesirable (for breeding) aspects are not present or not able to be evaluated at 9 months but I don't think the OP possesses the skills to make that call. No offense meant to the OP either. Since the dog doesn't yet seem to be involved in any serious training with a club like a good SchH club, none of us can make that call as armchair breeders. No, I do not believe a dog getting pinned as a puppy should matter and a normal GSD should literally bounce right back, but I'm not going to sit here and say "OMFG never breed that dog!" either. Neither of my dogs were anything like they are now when they were 9 months old. They didn't show any glaring problems with temperament, but as a whole I personally won't consider a temperament in or out for breeding until the dog is actually nearing maturity. To me 9 months is still a baby! Heck, Pan is nineTEEN months old and I still refer to him as The Puppy.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

seltzer, when we've had rescued mamas and a litter either born here or found within a day or so of their births, at about 3-4 weeks the pups will crawl in her bowl while she's eating. She'll go all ape-sh*t on them growling and guarding her food. 
My assumption was she's trying to teach them to not just wander into another dog's food later on in life??

Anyway - mamas do discipline their puppies and as the pups go out into life, other dogs discipline them if they are around other older dogs. Puppies just losing their puppy licenses will get readily disciplined here. We supervise and don't let much of it occur but we do allow older dogs to discipline "bratty" puppies, for instance, with no bite inhibitions, if they were taken too young from their moms (that is, we get them into rescue at 6-7-8 weeks of age). 

Being pinned by another dog (when you're a puppy yourself) is just that - dog forms of discipline. Why they do these things is beyond me but I know it's universal.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I still think it's premature to judge temperament. I'm not saying undesirable (for breeding) aspects are not present or not able to be evaluated at 9 months but I don't think the OP possesses the skills to make that call. No offense meant to the OP either. Since the dog doesn't yet seem to be involved in any serious training with a club like a good SchH club, none of us can make that call as armchair breeders. No, I do not believe a dog getting pinned as a puppy should matter and a normal GSD should literally bounce right back, but I'm not going to sit here and say "OMFG never breed that dog!" either. Neither of my dogs were anything like they are now when they were 9 months old. They didn't show any glaring problems with temperament, but as a whole I personally won't consider a temperament in or out for breeding until the dog is actually nearing maturity. To me 9 months is still a baby! Heck, Pan is nineTEEN months old and I still refer to him as The Puppy.


Yep.



msvette2u said:


> seltzer, when we've had rescued mamas and a litter either born here or found within a day or so of their births, at about 3-4 weeks the pups will crawl in her bowl while she's eating. She'll go all ape-sh*t on them growling and guarding her food.
> My assumption was she's trying to teach them to not just wander into another dog's food later on in life??
> 
> Anyway - mamas do discipline their puppies and as the pups go out into life, other dogs discipline them if they are around other older dogs. Puppies just losing their puppy licenses will get readily disciplined here. We supervise and don't let much of it occur but we do allow older dogs to discipline "bratty" puppies, for instance, with no bite inhibitions, if they were taken too young from their moms (that is, we get them into rescue at 6-7-8 weeks of age).
> ...


This was a bit more than a mommy correction.
We were walking on leash, and a large GS off-leash, came out of nowhere, and ripped her off the ground, and was shaking her 12 pound body like a ragdoll.
The day before, Kira was romping with her 120# male GS "Thor", without issue.
After that, she wanted no part of anything bigger than her.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lies, I've seen maybe undesirable traits in my younger dogs that disappear with maturity.

Anthony, you are such a good owner, Kira is so lucky to have you. whatever you do I know you'll have Kira's best interests at heart))


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Lies, I've seen maybe undesirable traits in my younger dogs that disappear with maturity.
> 
> Anthony, you are such a good owner, Kira is so lucky to have you. whatever you do I know you'll have Kira's best interests at heart))


 
Thanks Diane.
I may be guilty of sensationalizing a few new topics, and get myself in trouble 

Kira is doing fine. 

I'm setting an appointment with her breeder for next week. He has a couple of her littermates in Shutzhund training, and he agreed to evaluate her, and see why I'm ruffling so many feathers around here.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know what, he is not on the forum and what does it matter about feathers being ruffled over here? I think you are being way too concerned about what others think about your puppy based on the information you have given us. 

Just tell him people are concerned, based on what you have said, about her nerve strength and let him assess. Of course he, like you, may have a certain amount of bias. There are certainly different schools of thought in the GSD world about what is important in the German Shepherd, else there would be no delineation of working vs show.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> *You know what, he is not on the forum and what does it matter about feathers being ruffled over here? I think you are being way too concerned about what others think about your puppy based on the information you have given us. *
> 
> *Just tell him people are concerned, based on what you have said, about her nerve strength and let him assess.* Of course he, like you, may have a certain amount of bias. There are certainly different schools of thought in the GSD world about what is important in the German Shepherd, else there would be no delineation of working vs show.


 
Nancy.... It was a joke. Relax.

Ruffling feathers, ...like in ME getting people upset.
Like I just did...again.

Nothing to do with the dog.

And yes,.... I mentioned everything I mentioned here, and all my concerns. 

He said he will take a look at her.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> seltzer, when we've had rescued mamas and a litter either born here or found within a day or so of their births, at about 3-4 weeks the pups will crawl in her bowl while she's eating. She'll go all ape-sh*t on them growling and guarding her food.
> My assumption was she's trying to teach them to not just wander into another dog's food later on in life??
> 
> Anyway - mamas do discipline their puppies and as the pups go out into life, other dogs discipline them if they are around other older dogs. Puppies just losing their puppy licenses will get readily disciplined here. We supervise and don't let much of it occur but we do allow older dogs to discipline "bratty" puppies, for instance, with no bite inhibitions, if they were taken too young from their moms (that is, we get them into rescue at 6-7-8 weeks of age).
> ...


MSVette2U, I am just saying what I have witnessed with aproximately eight litters over the course of six years, and four different bitches. I leave the dam with the pups the entire time, eight weeks, or even longer if a pup is with me longer. And I have never had a bitch act aggressively over their food with the puppy. They are in when the puppies are fed, and they generally allow the puppies to crawl right up under their mouths and eat food from the dish. 

Also, Babs took her chicken leg quarter over to the whelping box and gave it to the puppies. They were almost eight weeks old. That is a high value item around here. 

I would imagine that maybe dogs that are dropped off, starving, might be more concerned about their food. Bitches who are food aggressive, might be ok with the puppies for a while, but then have less patience. But from what I have witnessed, I have never had a bitch go ape over food with one of her puppies. 

As for discipline, the pups are given a free pass for the most part. Maybe that is because I give the bitch an out. She can jump a small fence and get out of there when she needs to. I prefer this method. I do not allow adult dogs to discipline puppies, that is my job. Dogs are dogs, and they can inadvertently hurt a puppy, and it would be irresponsible of me to leave a young puppy to be bullied, harrassed, or even disciplined by an adult dog or even a significantly older pup. 

At the same time, dogs live in the present, and a single bad incident should not mar them for a significant amount of time if they have a good solid temperament and have been given some positive socialization experiences.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> They are in when the puppies are fed, and they generally allow the puppies to crawl right up under their mouths and eat food from the dish.
> 
> Also, Babs took her chicken leg quarter over to the whelping box and gave it to the puppies. They were almost eight weeks old. That is a high value item around here.
> 
> I would imagine that maybe dogs that are dropped off, starving, might be more concerned about their food. Bitches who are food aggressive, might be ok with the puppies for a while, but then have less patience.


I just have never seen that but then again, ours would be together in a pen due to, well, other dogs - not related to any of them.

I have witnessed, just once, puppies lick their mom not long after she ate, and she puked and let them eat the vomit!

But I've never seen a mama "share" her food with puppies - that said, we try not to have puppies, if a mama comes in and can be spayed prior to the birth, we prefer to do that. We've only had nursing moms maybe 6-8 x over 10 yrs. 

I wonder if being a stray/starving (usually they don't come to us in the great of shape which is why they are in rescue) is the difference?

I do allow other dogs to discipline puppies but only if they didn't have a mom, period.

Interesting dynamics


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In wolf packs, the dogs will come back from a hunt, pups would run to them and lick at their faces so that they would regurgitate some of the food for them. Not just the dam does this. But I have never seen my girls do this yet. I know it is natural.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> In wolf packs, the dogs will come back from a hunt, pups would run to them and lick at their faces so that they would regurgitate some of the food for them. Not just the dam does this. But I have never seen my girls do this yet. I know it is natural.


Yeah I just didn't think I'd ever see it in dogs, since they are so domesticated, well, and there's usually not a need for it!? It was really quite interesting in a kind of gross way.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have heard of it, not that uncommon. I do not think it is a matter of need, but just a dormant instinct that reproductive hormones stir in some bitches. 

It is amazing when you watch a dam with her first litter, how she knows what to do. I mean, you can sit outside the whelping box, and imitate pushing, and coax puuuush, but her instincts are really amazing. She knows to pull the gunk off the puppy, knows to clean it, knows to let it suck, and while I generally pull them out when she is having another, it is amazing how aware she is of them, where they are, even when she is having contractions. And when the puppies cry, she immedieately figures out who needs what. They are awesome mothers.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It is amazing when you watch a dam with her first litter, how she knows what to do. I mean, you can sit outside the whelping box, and imitate pushing, and coax puuuush, but her instincts are really amazing. She knows to pull the gunk off the puppy, knows to clean it, knows to let it suck, and while I generally pull them out when she is having another, it is amazing how aware she is of them, where they are, even when she is having contractions. And when the puppies cry, she immedieately figures out who needs what. They are awesome mothers.


I know - well we rescued that entire litter that a mama had (earlier in the day) out in a freaking pile of brush, and they were all cleaned up, cared for nursing, etc. She was not going to let us near them, either! 
I don't know if it was her first litter but I always get a bit amused when people go to such lengths to make sure everything is right, with the whelp box, shoe strings for cords, clean towels and blankets, etc...then a mama crawls under a building or some other 'den' and gives birth out there by herself in the country and everyone survives! 
Not that all the other is a bad idea


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Now I've never whelped a litter but as a general rule, I never expect German shepherds to be willing to share their food bowl with other German shepherds.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I just assumed mama was "tougher" on them so they'd know, when they got older, to not fiddle with other (older) dogs' food.

BUT she was not "mean" about it, she sounded all mean but she wasn't, because it did not deter them for long!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> Now I've never whelped a litter but as a general rule, I never expect German shepherds to be willing to share their food bowl with other German shepherds.


Maybe because you have never whelped a litter. GSD dams are simply awesome. GSD puppies do share the food dish as a general thing. Then Mom comes in and finishes it off, probably some instinct to keep things clean and keep bugs away. Her instincts are amazing. And she will let her puppies do just about anything.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The reason we do not see it more often in our domestic dogs is because we tend to wean our pups ourselves. There are a number of raw feeding breeders that do allow their bitches to start the weaning process on their own. For these breeders the bitch regurgitating for their pups is normal.


----------

