# Choosing a puppy: dominance



## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Can I get some opinions as to how dominance in the pack relates to hardness/softness/bidability or other notable characteristics of the dogs personality as it grows up?

Is a less dominant puppy going to be softer? More or less bidable? More or less apt to work? Apt to be less aggressive? Less apt to be distracted by other dogs?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

They call puppies unreliable for a reason. You may have a 'soft' dog with the pack, but once he goes home, he grows harder on his own. You never know what a puppy will turn into, there are so many factors. Socialization, how he is trained, how he is interacted with. You could take the same puppy, raise him/her differently and end up with many many different dogs. It is the classic Nature vs Nuture arguement, and they both have merits.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> They call puppies unreliable for a reason. You may have a 'soft' dog with the pack, but once he goes home, he grows harder on his own. You never know what a puppy will turn into, there are so many factors. Socialization, how he is trained, how he is interacted with. You could take the same puppy, raise him/her differently and end up with many many different dogs. It is the classic Nature vs Nuture arguement, and they both have merits.


Yeah I certainly understand that. I guess what I am asking is does dominance in the pack play a factor when selecting a pup?

Sounds like you say NO.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

It would depend on what you wanted. I think watching the puppies in the pack is very important and watching them outside of it as well. This is why selecting a breeder who will choose a puppy for you is so important. They have been with the puppies since day 1, know how they react in situations and would have the best rough idea of what they will turn into. 

Personnally dominance in the pack does play a factor for me. However, if my breeder told me that the puppy would grow away from his siblings I would trust their word.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

They say that the dominant pup in the litter is the one you want if you're pursuing SchH or other sport. It makes sense, as the confident alpha temperament is desireable. However, puppies are dynamic and the pup that appears to be the most dominant one day may not be the next. Sometimes the most aggressive pup will appear to be dominant, but is actually just an insecure wannabe-alpha that has learned to use aggression to solve his problems, and this is NOT the pup you want.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Freestep said:


> They say that the dominant pup in the litter is the one you want if you're pursuing SchH or other sport. It makes sense, as the confident alpha temperament is desireable. However, puppies are dynamic and the pup that appears to be the most dominant one day may not be the next. Sometimes the most aggressive pup will appear to be dominant, but is actually just an insecure wannabe-alpha that has learned to use aggression to solve his problems, and this is NOT the pup you want.


I'd think that dominance would reflect onto fight drive = a more dominant dog would be more apt to fight. 

I'm told that the entire litter is very dominant as is the dam. I don't know how to take that though when considering pack dominance/rank. 
In this case the most dominant male has the least drive. He is more interested in chasing the other pups then a ball or rag. The pups are 4 months old and he has been the most dominant pup all along. He did start out as the smallest male though and turned into the largest.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

TechieDog said:


> I'd think that dominance would reflect onto fight drive = a more dominant dog would be more apt to fight.


That's actually not true. A true alpha dog will be confident, which means he feels secure in his position and has little need to challenge anyone. It's the insecure wannabe-alpha that is more apt to pick fights.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I meant more of defense drive as in fight vs. flight.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

let's look at the pedigree , that will be a good guage on the potentials , will give an idea whether you have too worry about extremes in fight or flight.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't think extremes are an issue here. All pups are very solid and confident. 
Sire is Ozzy Barnero, Dam is Uny Milvel. 
I was just curious if dominance within the pack matters or should be considered when making pup selection.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

TechieDog said:


> I meant more of defense drive as in fight vs. flight.


Yes, if a confident alpha is faced with a genuine threat, he will likely fight back as opposed to running away.

I once knew a dog, a Pit Bull no less, who was a very confident alpha. I saw other dogs try to pick fights with Otis all the time. Usually he would just blow them off--if they were posturing and trying to ruffle his feathers, he'd simply turn around and, with tail held high, lift his leg on the nearest bush, then continue about his business. He was afraid of nothing, just didn't see the point of fighting to prove he was superior. He knew he was superior.  He was very good at defusing a tense situation with diplomacy, tolerance, and benevolence. He was a remarkable dog; while extremely drivey and energetic, he was as solid and as balanced as they come. Like an old soul.

On the other hand, if ever a dog launched a full-scale attack on him, he would send that dog packing in a matter of seconds.

How this temperament would translate into manwork, I am not certain. I know that with Otis, a people-loving dog having a very high threshold for aggression, it would take a lot to make him feel threatened, but once that threshold was breached, you could count on a swift, no-nonsense takedown. I would bet that if Otis had ever done SchH, he'd have been awesome as his prey drive was over the top, his bite was powerful, and he knew no fear.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Freestep said:


> That's actually not true. A true alpha dog will be confident, which means he feels secure in his position and has little need to challenge anyone. It's the insecure wannabe-alpha that is more apt to pick fights.


From the little that I know, I think the reaction of a "alpha" dog might depend on the reaction of the other dog. Submit = no fight. Resistance = fight!


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## Josh's mom (Oct 30, 2010)

We were looking for a confident dog for an eventual tracking/narcotics K9 partner for my husband. We consulted the head of training at the local dog academy. He gave us a link to the "Volhard puppy aptitude test for working puppies". We did the tests on Josh when he was 7 weeks old. He was the alpha male of the litter, and 3rd out of 6. All the other pupples followed him around, too cute! We were told that alpha males can be bull-headed, and he has been, at times. He has remained pretty confident though.

Google the Volhard puppy aptitude test and try it out


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

During pup selection you are evaluating the litter for many things, not just dominance. There are many other variables that you should be looking at and how they inter-relate,

1. Food drive
2. Pack 
3. Prey response
4. Environmental response 
5. Nerve

For best results evaluate litter away from breeder's property (new environment). Pups do not change, if someone experienced evaluates the litter, it is not a crap shoot. Pup grows up exactly how it shows itself during development, it is a matter of recognizing the traits.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Just on gut, we never go for the "dominant" pup. We prefer to go with a more balanced, outgoing, confident but not bossy pup. The one that initiates play and seems to be well liked is a good choice for us. My husband and I currently have dogs from the same dam, different sires. We both wanted a pup from the dam because she is very confident but in a very engaging way. She is also a SchH3 so that helps .
What you see in the litter is a controlled dynamic to some extent and doesn't always translate to the big wide world. I listen to the breeder's assessment since they have spent the most time with the litter, but like to see a pup by itself away from the group when I go to see the litter. 

Annette


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

dominance is overrated. don't worry
about it. train and socialize and you're going to
be just fine ( you and the pup).


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## neiltus (Mar 10, 2011)

I am going to ditto what doggiedad, bocron and packen said, I don't want the alpha in the pup pack, I want the crazy toy food drive that is not shy of new things. Easy as pie to train this dog.

The dog who thinks he is in charge of everything and has no interest in me...well, we will not have a good working relationship.

An alpha will not be any better at SCH than any other properly trained balanced dog.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Josh's mom said:


> He gave us a link to the "Volhard puppy aptitude test for working puppies".


I've always wondered how accurate this test is, does anyone know?

I have the results for our two dogs along with the results of their sires and dams when they were pups and a few of the grand/great grand sires etc. It's kind of interesting to look at the dogs as adults and see if they still have those traits.

It cracks me up when I look at the one for Annie's dam. On the last test, _Energy Level,_ hers says High, and then there's a note that says "very busy, stole the testers watch"


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## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

Any pup will one day be a combination of his genes and life experiences. His genes are fixed at birth. How the are expressed can be shaped to some extent but they are what they are. I have video of my 14 month male at about seven weeks calmly eat'en his chicken and letting a low rumble out when one of his siblings got to close. If that didn't work then he made sure they understood in no uncertain terms. Their toys was his toys, ect. 
When he stepped out of his crate as an eleven week old after a 10 hour flight the first thing he did was bark in my face and pee'd in the lobby for what seemed like five minutes from holding it the whole flight! LOL
He was dominant then and is now. From the first day he has been handled with a firm but fair hand. NILIF to the max. Sit in and out of doors, sit for food, not allowed in kitchen or any furniture and especially our bed. He is kept in crate a lot of the time in the house else he tries and establish part of it as his personnel "den" and put both me and him in a position neather like to be in. 
When he eats he doesn't like me next to bowel. Sorry. My food, my bowel. If he grawels I remove the bowel. He eats when he can behave. Of course he is nuts for a tug and was taught the aus from the start. He will get possive over it especially if I look hard at him and grawel at times. Ok game over. Tug goes back on the hook till he thanks about it. My tug not his. Any time he's out he has fur saver with tab at the least and when feeding and training a pinch as well. Any physical agression at all is delt with immediately in black and white terms.
Hear is a pup that was dominant in the litter and was raised as a dominant pup to control that. Not abused but controled and still he pushes the rules!lol To wife or others he's just a big oaf who he see's as not a threat to his position. Of course I am training him in Schutzhund and this same drive makes training a blast. 
Look at the pedigree of pup. The sixth place pup in Auron's litter if slipped in another litter at birth might have ended up on top with a breeding that was non working.


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