# Judging at different levels of shows?



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Ok, being a relative newbie to ScH, I have a question.

Is the judging point totals (and for deductions) in each of the three areas noticiabily different at the local, regional, national and international level shows.

More precisily, would exactly (impossible to really compare but assume) the same performance at a local club trial illicit the same numerical score at the international level show?

And should it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Judging gets stricter as one moves up the levels. A 3 is judged harder than a 2, which is judged harder than a 1, which is judged harder than a BH. Each exercise has a certain number of points associated, and also somewhat of a range of deductions for most mistakes, and from there it is up to the judge's discretion how severe the point loss he'll take for it. To determine that the judge will take into account the overall picture that the dog and handler present, what the mistake was and why it was made, and of course the level they are trialing for.

And then yes judging will get more strict again at a regional as compared to a club trial, at a national as compared to a regional, etc...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> More precisely, would exactly (impossible to really compare but assume) the same performance at a local club trial illicit the same numerical score at the international level show?
> 
> And should it?


No and No (in my opinion).


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## khudak (Nov 2, 2011)

Usually, and rightfully so, there are big differences at club vs nationals.. also every judge is different.. I think judging should be Olympic style at nationals atleast


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I am not very experienced in ScH, but I don't see why the same performance at a local show would not deserve the same score at an international one. I assume that they are using the same set of rules for each trial (and also assuming the same judge, of course).

That is what the judge told us at the local show we just had - same performance would get different result score in different venues.

Interesting approach! Good to know of course, if i get to attend different levels of shows.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Think of the world's and national trials as the Olympics of Schutzhund. You wouldn't expect the same high-level judging of gymnastics or figure skating at local events than what you would expect at a National events.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Think of the world's and national trials as the Olympics of Schutzhund. You wouldn't expect the same high-level judging of gymnastics or figure skating at local events than what you would expect at a National events.


Actually I really would expect the judges to use the same system of scoring and the same rules. 

I would expect the average score to be higher at an international show generally but only because of better more skilled competitors. The same performance at a local show should score the same as at an international one. (Ideally of course won't happen due to judges interpretation and approach most likely)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> Think of the world's and national trials as the Olympics of Schutzhund. You wouldn't expect the same high-level judging of gymnastics or figure skating at local events than what you would expect at a National events.


Correct, absolutely not (I used to live, eat, breathe gymnastics). Typically at the beginning of a four year cycle, scores at smaller meets (club or national meets) are all over the place (gymnastics rules change every 4 years after the Olympics and you think SchH/IPO rules are confusing?!? lol). Then they tend to settle but you will not see the same scores at club and national meets as you will in Olympic finals. In fact some competitions nearing the Olympics you will see deflated scores, they are trying to be as strict as they can and get the girls used to how THE event of four years is going to be judged. Depending on who the judges will be or where the event is taking place, the girls will alter their routines, their floor music, even their leotards and how they look to maximize the score. Technically, you *should* see higher scores at season-end events and the Olympics because those are the events they are training for all season or for four years (and especially at the Olympics it's important to keep the audience happy), but at the same time the judges are not going to do anyone any favors and if they are, they will be called out on it (like the 2004 Olympics men's results). 

I don't see dog events any differently. To me, entering a national or int'l event is not just to earn a title but to *compete* and for a competition to happen there needs to be a way of differentiating the results, not just pass/fail SchH3. It's not a competition if you've got 5 or so people tying for each placement. That is why I agree with judging big events being more strict and picky. The difference b/w gymnastics and SchH is not much but in gymnastics you take a start value into account and in SchH everyone starts from the exact same level (100pts), but given that, it makes even more sense that in SchH the scoring at a big event will be more strict, they have to be able to place people 1,2,3,4..... and the only way to determine those placements is the score.

At a club level event I would expect most entrants to be there to demonstrate their dogs can perform the exercises and earn the title, save for maybe a few people who are more competitive in spirit, or have a really exceptional dog, or have already earned the title and are preparing their dog for competition.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Personally I can't think of any judged venue where scoring is NOT different at a local level vs national/international level. That goes for other dog events like AKC obedience as well. When there is a range of possible deductions up to discretion of the judge, say 1 to 3 points for a crooked front, it is pretty typical that at the local level it'd likely be 1 point and at the high levels the 3 points.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

You have actually hit on one of my pet peeves with Schutzhund scorring, though probably not for the reson you think.




codmaster said:


> I am not very experienced in ScH, but I don't see why the same performance at a local show would not deserve the same score at an international one. I assume that they are using the same set of rules for each trial (and also assuming the same judge, of course).
> 
> That is what the judge told us at the local show we just had - same performance would get different result score in different venues.
> 
> Interesting approach! Good to know of course, if i get to attend different levels of shows.





codmaster said:


> Actually I really would expect the judges to use the same system of scoring and the same rules.
> 
> I would expect the average score to be higher at an international show generally but only because of better more skilled competitors. The same performance at a local show should score the same as at an international one. (Ideally of course won't happen due to judges interpretation and approach most likely)


The big thing to remember about the difference between shows from regional on up is that they are not for the same purpose as shows at the club level. 

A club level show is a _trial_ where each dog is to be compared to a benchmark for passing and his score should reflect how much better than that benchmark he does. And the benchmark for passing behavior is higher for a 3 than for a 1 more difficult title and all...

A regional and above show is a competition where each competitor is trying to prove his dog is the best in the region/nation/world. In this type of venue there needs to be a winner. All the dogs are competing at a very high level and the judging has to be very nitpicky to differentiate the dogs and find that winner. 

This is why scoring gets tighter at higher level events. Comparing the scores at a regional or national event to a club trial is often done but really shouldn't be. Personally I wish there was a completely different scoring system for the competitive level so people would quit trying to coompare the national level scores to the local ones.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Our training group showed at a trial that was a week after the Nationals. The judge was a competitor in the Nationals and I wondered if he would hold the competitors trialing to that level. 
He did judge fairly, and didn't really give anyone a break because they were showing at club level.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Back when the SchH1 was the breed title the dog was evaluated and scored with that in mind. Did the dog demonstrate the drives, nerves, obedience, hardness, fighting drive, etc, needed for the breed. They looked at the whole picture and scored based on that picture. I still see some judges that look at the 1 in that manner and are not anal about the points. As the handler and dog progressed in levels the judging naturally became harder and nit picky (but the dog was still part of the picture).

Once one starts to compete at the regional, national and world level, then yes I think the judging should become harder, but not just the points, but also about the dog. 

That, of course, is in my dream world where SchH is not just a competitive sport, but actually has something to do with the evaluation of the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When my friend and I did our SchH1, in protection her dog was not very clean and she made some handling mistakes, but the judge said that when he saw the dog's escape bite, he knew he was going to pass it no matter what the points tally for the little dings here and there, because of the power and fight that the dog showed on the escape and the drive. As much as I am a detail and numbers person, I really appreciate this aspect of judging, even if it does become more and more lost these days. I appreciate that regardless of the points tally, the judge is still considering the overall picture and what the DOG brings to the table, despite a lack of polish or novice handling mistakes that add up in points but tell nothing about the nature of the dog.

I guess at a big national or world competition, I assume that the dog has already earned the titles and has already been subjected to this overall evaluation of his character and now we're just nit picking over points and half points to get a winner.


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