# Genetic Obedience ?



## G-burg

I'm curious to hear/learn what dog(s)/lines bring this trait...

Genetic obedience, pack drive, I've heard it called a couple of different terms..


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## hunterisgreat

G-burg said:


> I'm curious to hear/learn what dog(s)/lines bring this trait...
> 
> Genetic obedience, pack drive, I've heard it called a couple of different terms..


I can tell you my male has markedly higher biddability & desire to be obedient to please me than my females... I think this is coming through my males mothers lines.


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## JanaeUlva

My female is extremely biddable and is such a fun dog because she tries so hard to do what you want and I swear she is the happiest dog I have ever owned. Mike Diehl said her sire Erri was always a happy dog, and I suppose that his success would have something to do with the dogs desire to work with the handler. 


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## elisabeth_00117

My female is extremely biddable. Even as a pup, super focused on her handler, never really needs to be corrected during obedience for anything as she tries so hard to do what is asked. Definitely what I would consider (as a newbie) to be genetically obedient/biddable.


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## lhczth

The line that stands out in my mind right now is Aly Vordersteinwald. I have done two breedings to males out of Aly daughters (the sire lines were totally different from each other) and each time I got very biddable dogs with a strong desire to please. Also some handler softness, but that is not always a bad thing since most people don't need nor want hard as nails dogs.


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## Castlemaid

A National (Canadian) and World level competitor we had here for a seminar a couple years ago, asked to see Gryff's pedigree. Looking over it, he said he had worked and trained in the past with Jabina kennels. 
Happy dogs, eager to please, always LOVED to work, he commented. 

Jabina Fjolle


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## holland

My current working line female has it-but I also think females think more about things -don't know how to explain it-but also my $20 rescue female had it-she just wanted to please and I think she was probably ASL or heaven forbid plain old byb pet lines


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## holland

...and maybe some of her desire to please came from her previous experiences or maybe it was genetic


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## jmdjack

My understanding is that genetic obedience tends to be concentrated in the bloodlines that made up the old herding lines. One example would be the Mummelsee dogs that were at the foundation of the old Kirschental lines (the actual working dogs, not the later show dogs). Some trace this back to the regional breed types that made up the GSD. 

Other names I have come across for genetic obedience are Vello zu den Sieben Faulen (the sire of the B,D,F, & G Lierberg litters) and Valet vom Busecker Schloss. Obviously, this stuff is back in the pedigrees so you have to go back away to find these names. 

Genetic obedience is discussed in some of the articles here: German Shepherd Herding.


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## Vandal

First Leesa, you'd have to define "genetic obedience". Most people have no idea what it "really" is. 

Frankly, the way just about everything is done in IPO training now, the dogs and the exercises are so micro-managed, prey/play driven etc, I don't see how anyone can really see how much of anything their dogs have. Add in what people now "think" a GSD is supposed to act like and there is no way of telling. 

Lots of dogs will follow happily along when there are treats and toys, they aren't stupid. But the ones bred to work, ( and not just in obedience but where they will actively team up with their person without the benefit of all the gadgets and "motivators"), are much fewer and far between nowadays. The way things are headed, will be gone soon enough.
I don't think that many people have seen dogs who really have what you are talking about and if it is there, their training hides it.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> First Leesa, you'd have to define "genetic obedience". Most people have no idea what it "really" is.
> 
> Frankly, the way just about everything is done in IPO training now, the dogs and the exercises are so micro-managed, prey/play driven etc, I don't see how anyone can really see how much of anything their dogs have. Add in what people now "think" a GSD is supposed to act like and there is no way of telling.
> 
> Lots of dogs will follow happily along when there are treats and toys, they aren't stupid. But the ones bred to work, ( and not just in obedience but where they will actively team up with their person without the benefit of all the gadgets and "motivators"), are much fewer and far between nowadays. The way things are headed, will be gone soon enough.
> I don't think that many people have seen dogs who really have what you are talking about and if it is there, their training hides it.


The simple definition for "genetic obedience" that I have come up with is the genetic obedient dog will work hard for me without the need to dangle a carrot (or a sword) over their head. My male is this way. He is profoundly impacted by perceiving I am displeased with his behavior or performance and will actively try to rectify the situation or make me happy even if I am not asking for anything at that point...


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## Merciel

I'm so glad you asked this question! 

As a follow-up: Does anyone know of any currently active kennels who really emphasize biddability/desire to work in their lines? Not just in individual dogs or litters, but as a major part of the overall program?

It's fairly easy to find that type of program in Golden Retrievers and Border Collies (who are, not coincidentally, by leaps and bounds the most popular breeds in competition obedience) but it's proving much harder for me to find in German Shepherds. Compounding the difficulty, most of the AKC competition dogs are American showlines, which doesn't do me a ton of good since I'm primarily interested in WL dogs, and most of the WL breeders are doing IPO, not comp OB. IPO is harder for me to evaluate for a bunch of reasons, so the more translation help I can get, the better!

If I wanted a Golden Retriever I'd already have a top 5 list of kennels, but in GSDs I'm having a much harder time figuring out where to look.


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## G-burg

> Lots of dogs will follow happily along when there are treats and toys, they aren't stupid. *But the ones bred to work, ( and not just in obedience but where they will actively team up with their person without the benefit of all the gadgets and "motivators")*, are much fewer and far between nowadays. The way things are headed, will be gone soon enough.
> I don't think that many people have seen dogs who really have what you are talking about and if it is there, their training hides it.


What I've highlighted is what I'm thinking the term Genetic Obedience is.. A dog that's willing and enjoys working with it's handler for the sake of well working with it's handler and really wanting to please...

Those are the dogs/lines I'm curious about...


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## gagsd

Every time this topic comes up I wonder what exactly IS G.O.

I have one dog who is very compliant, easy to handle and willing to please. I say "sit" and she just never questions it. But off-leash.... she would have a tendency to just run and keep running. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=643748

I have another who is strong, bullheaded, will not be micromanaged (i.e., to achieve "correct" obedience").... but has this weirdly wonderful desire to do things for me. I can call him off stock or a cat while in drive. I can ask him to go from room to room in the house, take him free in fields and on hikes.... he just has this -thing- that seems to be a strong will to work together. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603270-ari-von-den-thermalquellen

Are either examples of GO? I have no idea.


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## G-burg

Jut thinking out loud here..

I also think of a dog that can withstand some pressure or maybe be resilient to be able to bounce back from the pressure.. A dog who is happy with a pat and some praise vs a toy or treats..

Not a hard headed dog with it's own agenda or one you really have to get after to comply..


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## Freestep

I think the question may be, not only what genetic obedience is, but where it comes from... German working lines? DDR? Czech? Particular dogs? Would like to hear Carmen and Cliff chime in.

I have always heard that the old herding lines carry strong genetic obedience, and I have heard it about DDR lines as well, though I've also heard DDR lines described as "stubborn". 

Of the GSDs I've owned, most of them did seem to have "genetic obedience"... a willingness to please, a quickness to obey, a keenness of focus on the handler. They came from all different bloodlines, too. I think that, since the breed was founded on it, it runs through all bloodlines to some extent, even BYB dogs. My first dog was a GSD mix, and even she had genetic obedience in spades. Along with that came a hardness and resilience that forgave all my mistakes in raising and training her. If she hadn't been a mix, she'd have been the perfect GSD.


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## gagsd

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html


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## G-burg

> Frankly, the way just about everything is done in IPO training now, the dogs and the exercises are so micro-managed, prey/play driven etc, I don't see how anyone can really see how much of anything their dogs have. Add in what people now "think" a GSD is supposed to act like and there is no way of telling.


I understand this completely Anne.. I'm not even sure I would know, to be honest.. I have an idea working with my own dogs and what they bring and having the opportunity to work other dogs and see what I don't like

Given I've only been in the sport for about 6 years.. So I'm coming into it when a lot of the training had changed and the dogs have changed.. I was taught to use a toy to engage/motivate the dogs prey drive or make them so crazy for the toy that they'd just about do anything to get it...

But on the other hand I was also taught to use myself as a motivator from my very first trainer's wife I worked with in Schutzhund.. She told me if nothing else you always have yourself to build drive and engage the dog...


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## holland

gagsd said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html


I like what Christine said in this thread-about her first dog having it


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## Catu

My male is the most biddable dog I've worked with. In obedience we are struggling with him keeping sit while in drive, and will stand over and over, so not he doesn't have any kind of robotic obedience. He doesn't always sit at the first command either but he really feels my mood and a stern No is worst than any prong on his head. Where I see his biddability is in tracking, where while concentrated on his track he feels every slightest "good boy" or "no" I say. But more than in formal training I see his good nature in day to day life. Even as a pup he was never destructive because he needed to be told just once what he was allowed to chew and what no. My friends are always amused how I "talk" with my dogs because I just need to use a soft conversational tone to get them to do what I want, as in "Hey guys, don't you think it's too late and time to go to bed?" And they just sigh and go upstairs to their beds, where the only command is "bed". I'm the envy of my friends with children  

Akela, even more than Diabla, is of the dogs I've owned the one I can trust 100% off leash, and take into consideration that around here off leash and stray unneutered males are a given wherever you go.

Of his mother lines Anne can speake better than me and from his father lines I've also been told there are dogs known for his biddability coming from old herding lines. Im certain its a trait his breed did take into consideration for producing him, because it's something we had talked about, years before the mating.

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## robk

As for IPO, I think it is in the training, not the trialing that you get to see your dog. After all, in a trial we are seeing a finished product. Sure, the trial is micro managed for scoring purposes. Why not, it is a competition. What you see in training is what reveals the dogs true nature, in my opinion. I know I don't have 30 years of experience like some people on this board, but I have eyes and can see a dog's reaction to pressure in training as plainly as someone else. I can tell when a dog is happy to be engaged with his handler and not just focused on the toy. I can also see both the strenghts and weaknesses in my own dog through the training process. So yes, I believe IPO has value in disclosing what is below the surface., ie Genetic Obedience and hardness. The value is in the training process more so than in the exhibition of the finished dog during the trial. (again, just my opinion).


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## gagsd

Catu my male sounds much like yours. Even in protection, I use a gentle "come, come" to get him to return to me after "winning the sleeve," a quiet "aus." Yelling is counterproductive as he is deeply affected by my "anger."

Again, not a soft dog or a compliant dog..... just something else going on. 
When training is a partnership he works well. Days that training is not a partnership..... weeelllllll.....

I worked him on sheep for the first time in a year the other day and he was just joyful. Rode home with a smile that lasted two days. He is blissful when doing a job that satisfies his drives.


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## G-burg

I'll have to check out the other thread.. Hopefully they listed the actual dogs/lines..


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> Catu my male sounds much like yours. Even in protection, I use a gentle "come, come" to get him to return to me after "winning the sleeve," a quiet "aus." Yelling is counterproductive as he is deeply affected by my "anger."
> 
> Again, not a soft dog or a compliant dog..... just something else going on.
> When training is a partnership he works well. Days that training is not a partnership..... weeelllllll.....
> 
> I worked him on sheep for the first time in a year the other day and he was just joyful. Rode home with a smile that lasted two days. He is blissful when doing a job that satisfies his drives.


my male is like that. Its not the volume or firmness of the command, just the presence of anger that messes with him. I can scream my head off at him so long as I'm not anger, and likewise if I whisper an anger-laden "pfui" it has profound impact.


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## wolfstraum

Lots of 'old herding lines' behind Kyra, and she was happy to work for praise...could care less about a ball...but always on her own agenda! Would never have called her 'biddable'.....but bred to Xito, I got dogs who just wanted to be with you and would work for you....ball and food were good rewards, but praise and petting was more than enough validation for them in training....Csabre learned all her retrieves for food and praise...never needed any force (and a German trainer at a seminar held her up as a shining example of how good retrieves could be with a force retrieve).....now I haven't trained any of her pups far enough along to see how they compare yet ....the one I have seems that he could be as well...

Lee


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## G-burg

Lee would you say the von der Maineiche dogs carried this trait?


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## wolfstraum

to some extent - Kougar I definitely wanted to interact with you...but he had some genetics that were a PIA to deal with...the Fero screaming thing....but Csabre definitely has it...and from teh time I spent with Xito...he certainly was a smooze and worked hard to engage you ....Xento is in every dog I have, even the non Xito ones...and not one has ever been a butthead (ohter than some of the stuff KI did like not wanting to out...but that was bad training too)

Komet is learning capping NOW, and really offers and wants to please....

Lee


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## G-burg

I see that with my Kougar.. He wants to please and he wants to be correct.. And he has some of those old herding lines and the Maineiche..

I see the same in my Wildhaus dogs too but won't know which dogs in their pedigree it's coming from.. 

Lucia mentioned Jabina Fjolle and know some sons and daughters to him I see the same willingness and or love to interact with their handlers..


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## mycobraracr

This Genetic Obedience or pack drive, is the reason I have gone with the breeder I have. Many people talk about it, but I haven't truly seen it except out if this particular dog Zeppe van't steyneveld . I'm not saying many of you don't produce it, I just have not had the opportunity to work dogs from your kennels yet. I have said it's something special in the dogs. I have seen about twelve dogs out of him and I have a daughter and grandson out of him. Both are remarkable in the sense that they truly want to please. A toy is just a bonus. It makes trialing easy, as they are just waiting for their scratch on the butt or pat on the head and a "good dog".


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## carmspack

Yes to Lisa , and will detail the pedigree on Aly Vordersteinwald .

Definitely yes to Vandal (hi! long time no see) "

First Leesa, you'd have to define "genetic obedience". Most people have no idea what it "really" is. 

Frankly, the way just about everything is done in IPO training now, the dogs and the exercises are so micro-managed, prey/play driven etc, I don't see how anyone can really see how much of anything their dogs have. Add in what people now "think" a GSD is supposed to act like and there is no way of telling. 

Lots of dogs will follow happily along when there are treats and toys, they aren't stupid. But the ones bred to work, ( and not just in obedience but where they will actively team up with their person without the benefit of all the gadgets and "motivators"), are much fewer and far between nowadays. The way things are headed, will be gone soon enough.
I don't think that many people have seen dogs who really have what you are talking about and if it is there, their training hides it. "

and yes to Lee -- the Maineiche dogs lent themselves to this because of attention to herding lines - (not trialing herding but continuation of old herding genetics)


link http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...biddability-genetic-obedience-pack-drive.html
Samba's Samba is a daughter of carmspack leroy
as is Buffy "badge on my collar" http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...spack-buffy-badge-my-collar-breeding-wor.html

genetics -- Maineiche which joined Marko Cellerland with a dam carrying Claudius von Hain which merges important herding lines to Knolle haus Hain , and to the herding lines of von Burg Fasanental particularly Norbert - and to herding genetics of von Blasienberg . 
Racker Itztal brings in Pirol Kirschental who again brings in Valet (see above) and the "other" herding lines of Kirschental - Centi - progeny of Dori WANDERSCHAFEREI -- (Hain, Fasanental , and Forellenbach genetics (on many DDR dogs) 
on the Leroy pedigree Kilo's dam brings in Valet and Veit and Seffe Busecker Schloss , Eros Busecker Schloss (repeat) plus Racker Itztal (see above) and his lines to Kirschental's Dori , another source to Racker Itztal. 

Many of these combinations would have been on the dog that Lee, ms Wolfstraum recommended to hunterisgreat . that stud being Django Djurjim (spelling please)
I said this male would bring in versatile utility and intelligence because of the potential in his background. It helps if the female has rich resources to this as well.

here you can SEE it http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...189671-nickolas-journal-dogs-development.html

Aly Vom Vordersteinerwald V Aly vom Vordersteinwald 

Aly is a progeny of Troll , son of Fero , who little known to many does carry lines to old herding . This through Alfred Hahn's (mr Busecker Schloss) favourite male of all time Faust Busecker Schloss . Faust was a casualty of War and Hahn looked for essence of Faust , tried to re-create him in his breedings . Faust brings in Onyx Forellenbach and the Hohen Espe herding genetics .
My dogs came through a Boris progeny Brix Laimbachtal who was from Bert haus Knufken a well known herding breeder through Deija Distelrasen - von der Hain (herding) Boris through a Rocco Busecker Schloss grand daughter , Fonda.
so Fero can provide some good material . Troll came from a click combination . The dam is Askia bringing Bernd Lierberg and 

submitting this more to follow


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## carmspack

Aly vom Vordersteinwald - Askia bringing Bernd Lierberg and Sirk and Seffe Busecker Schloss (as already given), Marko Cellerland ..

Each, Troll and his sire Fero had the genetic background for balanced , animals with herding drives , tracking drive, pack drive , but this is something that has to be maintained in each generation going forward . The selection seemed to be away from this potential , so instead Fero in a pedigree is often associated with extreme sporty drives verging on reactive and hard to cap.
Aly also benefits from Maineiche and the base of the Busecker Schloss . Details into the background links to herding genetics already listed in detail earlier in previous post.


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## G-burg

> Each, Troll and his sire Fero had the genetic background for balanced , animals with herding drives , tracking drive, pack drive , but this is something that has to be maintained in each generation going forward . The selection seemed to be away from this potential , *so instead Fero in a pedigree is often associated with extreme sporty drives verging on reactive and hard to cap.
> *




Thanks Carmen and everyone else.. I'll have to read through the blogs..

I'm training a dog now who has Fero I think 3 times. Definitely a more sporty dog.. A dog when the toy comes out is all she cares for and it becomes hard for her to think.. We're making progress but it's been slow.. She's a tough little cookie too.. You can see she is only working for the toy not me..


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## carmspack

personally I wouldn't want that -- 
I think too much selection has been not on the talent but on the motivator . If you want a dog to track select a dog that shows natural tracking drive . So much emphasis has been put on determining which pup has ball drive so that we can shape and motivate behaviour. So we have booty crazy dogs who form relationships with the motivation - food or toys -- and not the symbiotic relationship with the handler .
You see youtubes of young dogs being shown obedience in heeling exercise . The dog's snout is firmly attached to a tidbit of a treat in the hand . The dog isn't thinking . 

Samba said in her contribution that her dog (carmspack) Samba lived her life doing everything plus some , anticipating what needed to be done , without need or use of a leash. Only when she went into competition did she realize the dog needed a leash attached , and the dog had to become used to it.

I had a contact in Germany who unfortunately I haven't heard from for the last while , who had a contract with land management , clearing weeds and brush as an environmentally "green" solution. She used sheep to graze the area and used dogs , but they were not GSD , nor did other people in occupation use GSD . They were selected from the altdeutsche hutehunde or alternatively altdeutsche schaferhunde* Altdeutsche Schäferhunde or Altdeutsche Hütehunde Altdeutsche Hütehunde Zuhause - ALTDEUTSCHE HÜTEHUNDE*


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## cliffson1

Good post Carmen....this is trait for many to recognize much less understand....comes through a lot of the old east herding lines also.


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## carmspack

I also wrote , in my limited German , to a gentleman who is one of the last professional wanderschaferei -- and he does not use "breed" GSD , but the traditional races which would have gone into the gene-pot from the beginning.

To much of what is tested for isn't a natural inclination but the results of being micro managed , as Vandal said . The GSD is so distorted , so market driven that you have custom designer versions , huge , heavy, extreme prey, panic-attention to ears , colour , and then the different groups - ASL, WGSL , sport lines . Here , this from Marbury 

*" Long Road, New Challenge!* 
OK! So I've been flapping my gums about being scared of high drive/working shepherds because the responsibility scares me shirtless. Instead of hiding my head in ASL's I took the plunge; I had the opportunity to try on a working girl for size for a month and I took it (I have a household vacancy since I'm homing my male back to his breeder).

She's a gorgeous little 5.5 month old lady and WOW is it a change from what I'm used to. "

There is no one GSD .


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## carmspack

definitely Cliff . I have tried to find those lines and use them to advantage . 
Lord , Jeff Flamingsand , Ali Granert , G and H Ritterberg thanks to the Himpels going back to Fasanental herding


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## JanaeUlva

Don't know if this falls into what people are calling genetic obedience that is being described as a will to work with the handler that goes beyond working for a toy or food. But as mentioned in a previous post, Minka is such a fun dog to train because she is happy and biddable. Even as a puppy, she would repeat behavior that got her sincere verbal praise. As an example, I would take her hiking, when she was under a year old, and have her jump up on boulders and fallen trees. When she would hop up there I would tell her what a great dog she is. The next time we would go to these areas to hike she remembered every boulder and tree that I asked her to jump up on and would hop up on each one untold. To this day, 3 years later, she remembers each and every obstacle that I asked her to jump up on and will do it again for praise.

Yes she likes to be rewarded with a ball or food and we do that. But I also use much sincere praise and you can see in her posture and expression that it means a lot to her. 

Once she learned that my laughter means I am happy with her, I had to be careful what I laughed at because the behavior would be repeated.


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## dzg

Merciel said:


> As a follow-up: Does anyone know of any currently active kennels who really emphasize biddability/desire to work in their lines? Not just in individual dogs or litters, but as a major part of the overall program?


The fact that no one answered this question is rather telling ... read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. Sad.

I looked into this quite extensively a while back and only 3 kennels came up:
Carmspack - Carmen Duggan
Shannon Lake - Ruth Yeulett
Rancho Rhein - Phyllis

All the above emphasize on old herding lines and genetics that produce consistent "old world" biddable dogs and their stock is very old proven bloodlines selected primarily for genetic obedience. 

Can others add to this list?


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## Saphire

dzg said:


> The fact that no one answered this question is rather telling ... read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. Sad.
> 
> I looked into this quite extensively a while back and only 3 kennels came up:
> Carmspack - Carmen Duggan
> Shannon Lake - Ruth Yeulett
> Rancho Rhein - Phyllis
> 
> All the above emphasize on old herding lines and genetics that produce consistent "old world" biddable dogs and their stock is very old proven bloodlines selected primarily for genetic obedience.
> 
> Can others add to this list?


i have a carmspack dog who is all of the above.


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## onyx'girl

> *Originally Posted by Merciel*
> As a follow-up: Does anyone know of any currently active kennels who really emphasize biddability/desire to work in their lines? Not just in individual dogs or litters, but as a major part of the overall program?





dzg said:


> The fact that no one answered this question is rather telling ... read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. Sad.
> 
> I looked into this quite extensively a while back and only 3 kennels came up:
> Carmspack - Carmen Duggan
> Shannon Lake - Ruth Yeulett
> Rancho Rhein - Phyllis
> 
> All the above emphasize on old herding lines and genetics that produce consistent "old world" biddable dogs and their stock is very old proven bloodlines selected primarily for genetic obedience.
> 
> Can others add to this list?


Yes, Wildhaus, even though they aren't breeding from "old herding" lines, the dogs are biddable, with genetic obdience as well as work ethic and the titles and achievements from most every litter produced speaks volumes about the program and foundation. And they are in the 3rd generation now of breeding from the foundation.....tells me they are in it for reasons we like to see and approve of?


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## mycobraracr

dzg said:


> The fact that no one answered this question is rather telling ... Sad.


 
Not really. You can see this in lots of kennels. Not just from old herding lines either. I see it in kennels that actually compete with their dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1

If they dont compete how can you know what they have? When I go to a trial I try to find out were all the dogs I like come from. When someone brings a nice dog to the club I ask were they got it...likewise for the not so good ones. I would be interested to see this genetic obedience paired with workability.

I saw a very nice tandem at trial recently believe the dog was Gandalf von der Schiffslache dont know if he has genetic OB but I liked his intensity and the control and relationship he had with his 4 foot tall handler. He was about 100lbs so it was cool to see.


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## carmspack

"I would be interested to see this genetic obedience paired with workability."

what do you think it is ??

genetic obedience --Nicholas as in the blog on this forum - now a working certified bed bug detection dog -- and the same spirit in the repeat litter - Arthur, Mercer and Kade - 

Leroy and his progeny Sable and Buffy -- bomb dogs in Washington.

working - yes -- titles - not necessarily - genetic obedience is a creative co-operative component of a dog --

others who I know that look for it Sontausen , Nicklesberg, John Paver - with his Orex , certain combinations -- it must be maintained and deliberately sought for and can disappear in a generation or two if the focus is not there to select for it . 
nothing to do with obedience / drill performance


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## dzg

_*Originally Posted by Merciel*
As a follow-up: Does anyone know of any currently active kennels who really *emphasize biddability/desire to work in their lines*? Not just in individual dogs or litters, but *as a major part of the overall program*?_


The critically salient part of the Merciel's question are bolded in red .... from my research looking into bloodlines and then speaking to breeders there are VERY FEW Kennels that emphasize this. The ones I did find I listed.

Thats why there is a proliferation of the usage of treats & toys to motivate the dogs to "work for you" ... they are working for the treat or toy NOT you. This is utilization of the dogs drive not indicative of their genetic obedience ...

This has all been covered in past Genetic Obedience threads in detail. So I'm not going to rehash it here, its all in the archives if you have a few hours to while away and read.

In the meantime if others have other kennel names to throw into the mix please list them so all can benefit.

p.s. I'm not comment on Schutzhund, my views on that "sport" are public domain on this forum and last time I aired them I got chased out of dodge by the schutzhund posse.


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## Freestep

dzg said:


> All the above emphasize on old herding lines and genetics that produce consistent "old world" biddable dogs and their stock is very old proven bloodlines selected primarily for genetic obedience.
> 
> Can others add to this list?


I don't know enough about bloodlines to identify "old world herding lines", but I know Julia Priest of von Sontausen specifically looks for "genetic obedience"... biddability. Her dogs tend to be very eager-to-please types that will work hard to win the handler's approval. This makes them super easy to train.


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## wolfstraum

dzg said:


> The fact that no one answered this question is rather telling ... read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. Sad.
> 
> I looked into this quite extensively a while back and only 3 kennels came up:
> Carmspack - Carmen Duggan
> Shannon Lake - Ruth Yeulett
> Rancho Rhein - Phyllis
> 
> All the above emphasize on old herding lines and genetics that produce consistent "old world" biddable dogs and their stock is very old proven bloodlines selected primarily for genetic obedience.
> 
> Can others add to this list?


I do.....I have two female families....one carries and has some of the lines Carmen mentioned very heavily ....Lierburgs, Haus Himple, has Marko Cellarland...

5 of 7 pups in this last litter in working homes.....one got an HGH at 23 months ) thanks to PHGSD) others are working in IPO and all those are very talented...some are more natural trackers than others, some are more extreme in protection, but all are doing well in training....all are very happy to work and quick learners....most of these characteristics are solid in their dam and some in 2nd dam....ball drive is good, that was added via the dam's sire (Xito Maineiche - who was a Marko Cellarland grandson)...

These pups are 3rd generation of my ownership/breeding/training with 4th to come next year hopefully.

Lee


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## Castlemaid

I don't know if one can make assumptions about the state of working dogs being produced by a few comments or lack of a few comments on a public forum - you have a small window of input here: 

I'm sure many breeders have the genetic bidability as a focus of their breeding program with success, and I'm sure that many breeders who have it all over their website wouldn't know genetic bidability if it hit them in the face, despite their claims (just talking about the thousands of potential breeders out there). 

I think that you can find genetic bidability in many lines, including American Showline, German Show line, and the many sub-sets of working lines. Some questions are just too broad in scope to be able to give definitive answers.


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> "I would be interested to see this genetic obedience paired with workability."
> 
> what do you think it is ??
> 
> genetic obedience --Nicholas as in the blog on this forum - now a working certified bed bug detection dog -- and the same spirit in the repeat litter - Arthur, Mercer and Kade -
> 
> Leroy and his progeny Sable and Buffy -- bomb dogs in Washington.
> 
> working - yes -- titles - not necessarily - genetic obedience is a creative co-operative component of a dog --
> 
> others who I know that look for it Sontausen , Nicklesberg, John Paver - with his Orex , certain combinations -- it must be maintained and deliberately sought for and can disappear in a generation or two if the focus is not there to select for it .
> nothing to do with obedience / drill performance


 
You can watch dogs do obedience or "drill" and see a lot about how the dog relates to the handler imo. You listed a bunch of dogs doing single purpose work..thats not uncommon. What does it have to do with genetic obedience? Are you saying those dogs only had the drive to find their target items based on their relationship with the handler? They would have learned to identify the target odor without any paired reward, just praise from the handler?

How much of this is genetics and how much is the handler being an effective communicator and meshing well with the dog?

I think schutzhund as with many things is what you make it. You can watch garbage schh 3 dogs or great schh 3 dogs. I think a dog thats competetive in IPO or most other bitesports shows more versatility then any single purpose dog if we really want to get into comparisons. jmo

Why are many of the "great" stud dogs we see in many pedigrees nowadays known for being hard headed, independant strong dogs?


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## carmspack

some get it , some don't .

genetic obedience has nothing to do with training -


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## Liesje

Maybe I'm way off base but....I feel like it's really my responsibility to foster a strong bond and trust between myself and my dog more than it's my dog's responsibility to be genetically obedient. Why would I want a dog, a companion, a partner that is genetically DISobedient? ETA: I guess I mean that I'd hope my dog's willingness to be obedient and work as my partner in a variety of ways has more to do with the fact that we've been together as a team since he was 7 weeks old and not just his genetics. I would assume that if I handed him off to a stranger they would not get the response I do or be able to work with him like I do just because he has the potential, genetically, to be obedience and a good working dog. You get out what you put in, dog and human.


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## carmspack

no, once again it has nothing to do with obedient or obedience . That is why this was put out All Things "Dog": August 2012

not because he was the first or last , but to show people the difference --

also way back in the early 80's I did videos for a guide dog institution showing an entire litter with this extra level 

not exclusive to GSD - had an English shepherd / aka American Farm Dog which had "it" -- could run the farm on routine by himself -- self initiated 

not every litter has it -- just because it comes out of a kennel with a program -- has to be deliberately sought for -- if it were from me I would not dream of saying that each and every combination would have it -- I would let you know and I would show you 

am finding the need for deep ancestral herding , not trialing , and appropriate for the breed style herding genetics to be part of the answer.

one combination 5 progeny over two litters and all had "it" 

I did put out the challenge before , if you have one , show me -- 

I did say that John Paver , who had to rigorously defend himself and his dog Orex on another forum years ago, and Ellen Nicklesberg , and Julia Priest of Sontausen and Lee Hough had , do have, and do know what it is.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Liesje said:


> Maybe I'm way off base but....I feel like it's really my responsibility to foster a strong bond and trust between myself and my dog more than it's my dog's responsibility to be genetically obedient. Why would I want a dog, a companion, a partner that is genetically DISobedient? ETA: I guess I mean that I'd hope my dog's willingness to be obedient and work as my partner in a variety of ways has more to do with the fact that we've been together as a team since he was 7 weeks old and not just his genetics. I would assume that if I handed him off to a stranger they would not get the response I do or be able to work with him like I do just because he has the potential, genetically, to be obedience and a good working dog. You get out what you put in, dog and human.


Agreed, I also think you click better with some dogs over others. I think your relationship plays a big role in how responsive and quick to learn the dog is. Im sure genetics do play some role, though I think "genetic obedience" is often over rated. 

You get a high drive pup with an independent mindset and you start thinking to yourself you missed the genetic OB boat. Then the dog ages a bit, calms down, your training starts to click and the dog becomes much more intuitive to your wishes and picks up the training much faster and just seems to get it more.. Wonder how many think of this as genetic OB? Or maybe you have an easy going pup that just cares more about pleasing you.

Ill say it again though, when you read about some of the "great" dogs touted on here or ask people that knew them. They all seem to have been difficult as young dogs.


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## Liesje

I can't really "show" one when I don't really get it.... I love my dog the way he is, I would clone him if I could afford it. I can't wait to get one of his sons and I am doing my best to line up breedings that compliment him in ways that maintain all of the traits I already love. If I can't do that then to be honest I may not get another GSD because the bar has been set. I guess if he doesn't have "it", then I don't need "it"....?


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## robk

I am having a difficult time understanding this issue as well. I have two dogs with very different personalities. Both are great dogs. One is very drivey and has been very easy to train. He responds very quickly to corrections and he picks things up very quick. However, he is also very possessive and independent as well. When we are not training he is satisfied to be laying around by him self or off at the edge of the property barking at a neighbor. My other dog is completely different. She is not so quick to pick up on what I am asking of her. She has been slow to learn even basic commands. However, she is very attached to me. She will follow me very closely. She is only interested in being in the general area that I am. She is not really that interested in things that are not directly concerning what we are doing right now. She will not even wag her tail when a stranger pets her but immediately wags her tail if I so much as cast a glance at her. She will bring me things to play with her as well. Now which one of these two dogs is more genetically obedient? The independent one who picks up commands very quickly or the one who doesn't but wants to be with me all the time?


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## Saphire

I found this....maybe helps to further explain.

Genetic obedience”*is connected to the pack drive which is the social aspect of the prey instinct. *It is expressed as a strong willingness to be with and to cooperate with the shepherd*— to accept direction from the shepherd. *”Genetic obedience” is the braking and steering mechanism the experienced shepherd uses to “direct” the high drive and natural behaviors the dog brings to herding out of the prey instinct. *A dog with “genetic obedience” only needs to be shown by the shepherd what the job to be done is and, once he understands, does the job willingly, reliably and, above all, independently*— this is “education”.* A dog with this drive not only*wants*to work, but it wants to work*in cooperation*with the shepherd. *Trainers with a “master/slave” mentality toward the dog are an affront to the genetic make up of this kind of dog.* On the other hand, a dog lacking in “genetic obedience” needs to be commanded by the shepherd and often, in the beginning, compelled to obediently perform the same tasks whether it wants to, or not*— this is “training”. *Both of these dogs will be able to herd sheep, but there will be a significant difference in their performances. *For example, the dog with “genetic obedience” whose instincts are “directed” will learn to work reliably and independently in*cooperation*with the shepherd; while the dog lacking in “genetic obedience” which is trained to work on and obey commands*will learn to remain reliant on*the shepherd.


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## Merciel

robk said:


> My other dog is completely different. She is not so quick to pick up on what I am asking of her. She has been slow to learn even basic commands. However, she is very attached to me. She will follow me very closely. She is only interested in being in the general area that I am.


Maybe you have a dog who's biddable but, alas, not that bright?

My Crookytail is like that. He _wants_ to work. He is desperate to please. I've been trying to teach him to walk backwards lately (it's homework for his agility foundations class) and instead of just walking, he flings himself backwards through the air, which is a hilariously awkward feat for an 85-pound Akita mix. I should get it on tape.

But he's so, _so_ dumb. It's not that he's lacking in biddability, just brains.


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## Chris Wild

I have a dog here next to me on the couch who is the poster child for genetic obedience. The only way I can think of to describe the concept to those who don't fully understand it is to describe her.

At a very early age, 4-5 weeks, she had a very strong desire to work with me. Puppies are generally very engaging and love to interact, but she was different. She was heeling alongside me at that age, and when I'd stop would swing around in front and sit to look up at me. None of that was trained. Sure, I encouraged it, but I didn't teach it. She just did it. And she's really been that way ever since. Engagement came naturally. She was born with it. I had to show her what behaviors I wanted and didn't want, and put cues and words to them, but there wasn't a lot of actual training involved in training her. She has always had total focus on me, total desire to do whatever I wanted... all I had to do was figure out how to show her what I wanted her to do. 

She likes food and toys, and sure I use them in training, but they are not her main motivator. She works for me and even as a youngster just starting formal training she would work as happily for praise, smiles and pets as she would for food or toys. As an adult, she actually works *better* for praise and pets than for food or toys. I never had to work on fading those lures and motivators out, or come up with gimmicks to make her think I still had them hidden on my person somewhere, because they aren't what she works for and never have been. And that is not because she is low drive for them. She is very high drive for food and insanely high drive for toys. Malinois level drive for toys in this girl. Control in protection has been practically perfect from day one, without her having to be taught the secondary and without needing corrections. I say sit, and she sits. I say heel and she heels. This is an area that for many, especially high drive dogs, is a constant battle and balancing act. To keep them obedient to the handler when they really want to do something else. With Heidi it's not a problem because no matter how much she wants to do something else, she wants to please me more.

Not only has she been a very easy dog to train, but an extremely easy dog to live with. I can take her off lead anywhere and she won't wander off. If deer or rabbits run by and she starts to chase, a simple "no" is all that is needed. Not a loud, bellowed "NO", just a reminder in a normal voice. It didn't take tons of training or an ecollar to accomplish that. I tell her I don't want her to do it, so she doesn't do it. When we first started letting our chickens free range this summer I took her for a walk around them while they were ranging. This was the first time she'd seen them loose and not cooped up, and she started to get excited, but looked to me for guidance. I simply told her "leave it" and she settled down and continued to walk amongst them with curiosity, but absolutely no desire to chase them. Had I told her she could chase them, I'm sure she would have. But I made it clear, just voice, no corrections needed, that they weren't to be chased. And she's been completely reliable around them ever since.

She comes from a litter of 12, and all of the puppies in that litter have quite a bit of genetic obedience. In the case of this litter, they got it from both sides. Their dam, Raven, has quite a lot of it herself as did their granddam, Ira, and there is quite a bit of it in many other half-siblings, cousins and other close relatives going back on the same lines. Another litter out of Raven, by a different sire, has almost as much as Heidi and the other Hs. In Heidi's litter we got more of it than usual and more than we've seen in most of our other litters due to the influence of the sire who brought a huge amount of this himself.


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## Liesje

Maybe I've just been lucky but so far the GSDs I've trained have all been very biddable, want nothing more than to be with me and train, but they were still all very different. Nikon sounds the most like what people are describing but again, I've always attributed our working relationship and intuition with each other to simply having been together nonstop for 5+ years. I guess I can see it compared to other breeds but to me a GSD that is stubborn or aloof to its handler or doesn't like to work or train has something wrong with it, no?

I also appreciate that my dog will "check" me if I'm being unfair or unreasonable (I do not mean bite me). For example, I can have him doing backflips for his favorite toy but if I throw it over a cliff, he ain't gonna jump! These times are rare but there have been times where I've asked him to do something not safe or something stupid and he has not complied with good reason and I've been fairly disobeyed. Maybe the genetic obedience thing is more evident when you consider what your dog *won't* do just because you are dangling a ball? 

I love dogs that are very "natural", I guess, and have a lot of innate drive and instinct that we channel rather than attempt to create. Other than GSDs my favorite dogs are primarily livestock guarding dogs. I'd sooner get a Great Pyr than say a Malinois. One person's "stubborn" is another person's "smart" or even survival.


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## Chris Wild

Lies, IMO much of what you're talking about doesn't fall under "genetic obedience". That sort of intelligence, including what is often referred to as "intelligent disobedience" is another trait that a GSD should have. And one that is actually imperative for some forms of work, such as guide dogs. But it's different from genetic obedience.

Heidi wouldn't jump off a cliff after a ball. She's crazy drivey, but has too much common sense for that. She probably would jump off the cliff just because I asked her too though. She actually as too much GO in some ways. Now her mother is very biddable, but not Heidi's level of GO and she also has the capacity for intelligent disobedience. So Raven wouldn't go off the cliff after the ball or because I asked her, and would essentially tell me I was an idiot for even considering the request. Ray is more correctly balanced that way and shows more the correct spectrum of traits for a GSD than her daughter as Heidi has so much GO it could override her common sense.


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## Liesje

So.....good secondary obedience/control? Is that it? If that is it then I like it. I don't like watching protection routines where it looks like dog vs. handler vs. helper, lol. I like to see dog/handler working as a team, I like to see the bond and the respect even if the dog doesn't have the flashy fancy obedience or comes through a long bite like a runaway train. Reminds me of a time I watched a BH and was pleasantly surprised that the dog and handler looked *better* on trial day than what I expected based on training and I swear it was because of the bond and connection that was there. The handler walked on the field with confidence and trusted that the dog was there to work and work well and he did.


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## Chris Wild

Liesje said:


> So.....good secondary obedience/control?


Yes, but more than the finished product it relates to how that was achieved. Any dog can be taught to have good secondary obedience and control. But was it easy, where it came naturally to the dog, the dog was able to easily learn to perform known behaviors despite the level of distraction and desire to do something else (engage the helper) and the dog is able to remain clear headed when in a state of high drive and stimulation and hear and respond to the handler (also a function of nerves here)? Or did it require lots and lots of training, repetition, drilling the exercises, and making the dog comply in order to achieve that control?

I don't remember if you were there on Sunday at the SMSPC trial, or just Saturday? On Sunday Dianna did the IPO1 with Isis and she was worried about the secondary in protection. The reason she was worried wasn't the usual reasons (fear that a high drive/high aggression dog might lack control). She was worried simply because it hadn't really been worked in training so she felt unprepared and unsure of what her dog would do because they hadn't practiced the actual exercises much. I think Isis had done maybe a dozen outs on the helper or set ups for the escape prior to trial, only one or two side transports and heeling down field for the courage test, and I'm not sure she'd ever done a single pick up in the blind out of the H&B prior to trial. 

But Isis did it all just fine in trial without a lot of training and prep in the exercises because she has a lot of GO and very good general training. Sit means sit. Down means down. Heel means heel. Out means out. It doesn't matter if there is a helper on the field or whatever else is going on. And that is the case with her more because of who she is than anything else. It certainly isn't due to lots of compulsion or other means to make the dog know she'd better do it.. or else.

At trial things weren't absolutely picture perfect with regard to position and such, but it was very good. More training would perfect the behaviors and get full points instead of SG points. But at the end of the day the dog did it without a lot of training specifically for those exercises because that's just who she is as a dog.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> I did say that John Paver , who had to rigorously defend himself and his dog Orex on another forum years ago,


Are you talking about the DDRGSD-L? I remember John Paver and Orex, and I remember a few arguments and him getting kicked off the list eventually, but he was very knowledgeable and I had a great deal of respect for him. I don't remember what the flap was over his dog Orex, though... can you remind me?


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## carmspack

Chris is making so many good points . I can see Ravens pedigree and see where this quality is coming from "usual suspects" .
It is hard to describe something that is naturally given by the dog . The bond is not "tight" controlled in the way you have a chain and anchor. Much more fluid , requiring decisions to effectively achieve a goal. A herding dog does not need to be told what to do . They are left to their own observations, own decisions , and can work on command or work independently , reliably, in charge , with responsibilities , whether there is someone there in charge or not.
Ellen Nicklesberg has many a time written about leaving her dog in the fields while she has left the property . 
I had a police dog that was sent to look for some article in a field -- persistent , every one took a break -- and the dog continued back and forth for an hour and a half . Of course the dog was in view but there was no need for supervision . The dog had its task and it was relentless.
High natural tracking skills are often a feature of this genetic obedience.
The connection to and the work with the handler in a partnership is voluntary .
As far as trials , Journey , recently attaining her IPO 1 with high marks, first trial for both handler and dog , and with much interest from the judge, was introduced to exercises virtual days before the trial.


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## carmspack

Yes that is the one . Not the ddr list , I believe it was in the euro list. Ellen Nicklesberg, Paver, and myself were in a discussion , much like this topic, more along the lines of natural instinctive tracking , self- rewarding . Apparently we had smoke coming out of our bums -- and so he lost his cool .
Julia Priest had left before for similar reasons .
Things got out of hand, immature , "what are you smoking because I want some of that "
constant derision from the someones who have been in dogs for all of 5 minutes (figure of speech)

better things to do I guess


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> Chris is making so many good points . I can see Ravens pedigree and see where this quality is coming from "usual suspects" .
> *It is hard to describe something that is naturally given by the dog . The bond is not "tight" controlled in the way you have a chain and anchor. Much more fluid , requiring decisions to effectively achieve a goal. A herding dog does not need to be told what to do . They are left to their own observations, own decisions , and can work on command or work independently , reliably, in charge , with responsibilities , whether there is someone there in charge or not.*
> Ellen Nicklesberg has many a time written about leaving her dog in the fields while she has left the property .
> I had a police dog that was sent to look for some article in a field -- persistent , every one took a break -- and the dog continued back and forth for an hour and a half . Of course the dog was in view but there was no need for supervision . The dog had its task and it was relentless.
> High natural tracking skills are often a feature of this genetic obedience.
> The connection to and the work with the handler in a partnership is voluntary .
> As far as trials , Journey , recently attaining her IPO 1 with high marks, first trial for both handler and dog , and with much interest from the judge, was introduced to exercises virtual days before the trial.



This is exactly how my last dog was. He was not a GSD, but this was him exactly. He only wore a collar when he was out in public because it was the law, not because he needed one. We used to have to hunt for his leash. He did whatever I asked him to, and I never spent one formal minute 'training' him, really. Except for when I taught him to 'speak' at the age of 9. 

My current GSD is lacking this mostly. Maturity is helping, but I can definitely see the difference. He is obedient, but not genetically the way my other one was.


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## carmspack

Rocket Dog I believe that entirely.
Contrary to some of those that think you can find this trait everywhere - it is not at all common.
I would not say that all my dogs have it . Some do in spades , other combinations not so much . This does not mean that either end of the description , those with and those without , lack hard working drives .

As I said I did have an English Shepherd , aka American farm dog , NOT a border collie , that would put most GSD to shame . Yet he never had a single obedience opportunity . He had a temporal sense and would get frustrated, almost anxious , if you prevented him from doing his farm chores (which we have because we have horses ) . That was his sense of responsibility.


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## Blanketback

I'm happy to hear that there is actually a name for this, lol. Genetic obedience. I used to say that GSDs were perfect because you didn't have to train them - they trained themselves. All they needed to know was what you wanted from them, and voila they gave it to you. Now maybe I'm not talking about the same thing, but this was the conclusion I came to with my first 2 GSDs, because I didn't train either of them at all and yet they never wore leashes either. The most they ever got was a "no!" when they strayed from what I wanted, and they were able to figure out the rest for themselves.


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## onyx'girl

Until you have a dog with G.O you don't really know what it is. It is refreshing and a joy when you see it!


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## RocketDog

onyx'girl said:


> Until you have a dog with G.O you don't really know what it is. It is refreshing and a joy when you see it!


Yes, and unfortunately, it spoils a person.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Things got out of hand, immature , "what are you smoking because I want some of that "
> constant derision from the someones who have been in dogs for all of 5 minutes (figure of speech)


Ah yes!  It happens on every forum, including this one. I eventually left the DDRGSD-L because of it. I did listen and learn a lot while I was on that list, but the bickering, sniping, name-calling, emotional immaturity? Ugh. We all have our moments, but it was so rampant on that list that I simply couldn't take any more.

But that was, what, 10-15 years ago? Does that list still exist? Seems that now with Facebook groups, email discussion lists have gone the way of the dodo.


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## carmspack

it was the euro list .

although this "The most they ever got was a "no!" when they strayed from what I wanted, and they were able to figure out the rest for themselves. " is so easy to deal with - genetic obedience goes far beyond that . 
A dog that is inhibited or submissive can have the same response as your description blanketback. Not saying this is the case with yours in particular.

Genetic obedience dogs are powerful , drivey, dynamic dogs .

It does spoil a person --- I keep looking for it --- goldmine when I find it . One combination produced it reliably, powerfully in 5 out of 5 progeny --- . Demonstrated it many times with the litter repeat .


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## Wolfgeist

Genetic obedience does spoil a person, for sure. You get into the habit of speaking to the dog like they are a human, because they just gather up cues and various words or whatever they need from what you are saying and just do it because they want to do what you say. Go that way - dog goes wherever you point or gesture subtly. Go downstairs and platz, dog leaves the room, goes downstairs and lays down and waits for next command... lays in the same spot for an hour and a half... Various commands, often not what the dog was trained with, and he still does it.

That's my newbie experience, anyway.


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> It does spoil a person --- I keep looking for it --- goldmine when I find it . One combination produced it reliably, powerfully in 5 out of 5 progeny --- . Demonstrated it many times with the litter repeat .


Teaser!! Which combination?


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## Merciel

Agh you guys are really fanning the flames of my puppy fever, and just when I'd started to get it under control, too!


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## David Winners

Carmen, 

Do you think the Gandalf (Lubek son) breeding shows potential for genetic obedience? I see it in descriptions of Journey, and Mike Suttle said Lubek was a very easy dog to work, but unbelievably hard in the fight. I'm paraphrasing, but basically that's the gist of it. 

Do you see the potential?


David Winners


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## John C.

Interesting thread. Glad it was resurrected as I missed it the first time around. I've always thought my beloved Cosmo, who we lost last year, had genetic obedience, or at least a high degree of biddability. We did a fair amount of obedience training and I rarely gave him a correction. If he failed to follow a command it was usually because he spaced out, or was anticipating a "sit" out of motion and I gave him a "down" instead. In the house, to get him to go into his crate all I had to say was "container", even though he knew this usually meant he was going to be left alone for the next couple of hours.

He was also extremely handler sensitive. A hard stare could usually get him to immediately stop what he was doing. Similarly, I had to be careful watching football games or political debates, because if I got mad and started yelling at the TV it would really upset him (he was usually at my feet when I watched TV and assumed it was something he'd done).


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## carmspack

Vandal said:


> First Leesa, you'd have to define "genetic obedience". Most people have no idea what it "really" is.
> 
> Frankly, the way just about everything is done in IPO training now, the dogs and the exercises are so micro-managed, prey/play driven etc, I don't see how anyone can really see how much of anything their dogs have. Add in what people now "think" a GSD is supposed to act like and there is no way of telling.
> 
> Lots of dogs will follow happily along when there are treats and toys, they aren't stupid. But the ones bred to work, ( and not just in obedience but where they will actively team up with their person without the benefit of all the gadgets and "motivators"), are much fewer and far between nowadays. The way things are headed, will be gone soon enough.
> I don't think that many people have seen dogs who really have what you are talking about and if it is there, their training hides it.


 
I just have to use this .

John C if you are interested in the topic here is another , longer thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html

this one will save a lot of time and provide pedigrees from where to expect genetic obedience http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/191809-genetics-herding.html

first job in breeding is find the qualities that you want, breed deliberately to that goal . One or two generations are not enough . Ascertain achieving this , then stabilize the genetics so that you have a predictability for similar results. This then shows genetic penetration . Next step is to maintain what you have .



genetic obedience has not much to do with obedience.
genetic obedience is not softness or submission .
by nature the dogs need to have a hard resilience and be bloody-minded to willingly take on the job with and without direction .

Genetic obedience is the willing co-operation of the dog to co-ordinate efforts effectively with the handler to achieve an end result . That description takes it outside of herding use.
Manfred Heyne has some excellent words here German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne

this one is from another breed , lots to think about here !
Working Aussie Source Stockdog Library: The Difference Between Herding And Obedience Training, by Tenley Dexter

xxxxxxxxxxxx

next on Lubeck


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## carmspack

David Winners said:


> Carmen,
> 
> Do you think the Gandalf (Lubek son) breeding shows potential for genetic obedience? I see it in descriptions of Journey, and Mike Suttle said Lubek was a very easy dog to work, but unbelievably hard in the fight. I'm paraphrasing, but basically that's the gist of it.
> 
> Do you see the potential?
> 
> 
> David Winners


 hi David -- I cannot speak about Gandalf's breeding potential in the area of genetic obedience.

I have been in touch with Gandalf's owner, having been a fan and observer of his GSD breeding program for some time .
He had a female KNPV that could benefit from a shift in the next generation and so he chose Lubeck " I mated her with Lubeck, a KNPV KKl1 temperament full and lively male with a high “will to please”.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...anding-knpv-dogs-results-dutch-nationals.html

so Gandalf is off to an excellent start 150/150 -- 
his brother Gideon is a Dutch working military patrol/explosive detection dog . That was the two males out of a 3 pup litter. The female is , to my knowledge , in a home .

I congratulate Frank Stommels for so consistently producing GSD that can be at the tops of the KNPV , met Lof . 

the male I have selected after almost a year of researching is a Lubeck son .
Lubeck is the icing on the cake . The dam of this Lubeck son has remarkable genetics in that she brings in MORE old herding stock which will complement Journey's pedigree beautifully. 
I showed Stommels the pedigree and he saw what I saw .


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## carmspack

the "Nicholas" dog combination , proved itself twice with dogs old enough to work and evaluate , and is most promising in the last repeat which finally provided a female to work with for the future.

Nicholas http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...189671-nickolas-journal-dogs-development.html

we'll try him again with Claudia -- "that" should be strong in genetic obedience Carmspack Stan Carmspack Stan is sire (brother is a dual police dog)
Nick's dam is Chiba vom Parchimer Land
Carmspack Claudia sister to bomb dog Silva, Carmspack Claudia


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## John C.

Carmspack, 

Thank you for your comments and links. I took a look at the one on breeding lines, but haven't yet worked my way through the lengthy thread on genetic obedience.

Interesting that genetic obedience seems to sometimes be paired with dogs from a herding background. I guess this makes sense when you think of the degree to which a sheep herder and their dog need to work together.

Its also interesting in that, based on the research I've recently been doing in preparation for getting a new puppy, there seem to be a couple of well respected breeders here in New England that have been focusing on putting sheep herding titles on their dogs, rather than the more traditional Schutzhund title.

Finally, after much research and visits to a number of kennels, my wife and I are finally getting a new puppy who was born a few days ago and hopefully will be ready to come home with us in early June. Coincidentally, he does come from a long line of herding dogs on his mother's side (Kirschental). (I recognize that a lot of the later Kirschental dogs are considered more WGSL dogs, but we've always loved the look of the German show lines, had the chance to meet the breeder, both parents, and a couple of puppies from a prior breeding of these two dogs and liked everything we saw). As Winston Churchill observed in another context, selecting a puppy isn't the end of the process, or even the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning. Now its up to us to socialize and train the dog and do our best to bring out his full genetic potential.

And yes, I will be posting pictures once we get our new puppy - because who on a forum devoted to GSD's can resist pictures of GSD puppies.


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## carmspack

John C -- got a pedigree ?


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## glowingtoadfly

JanaeUlva said:


> My female is extremely biddable and is such a fun dog because she tries so hard to do what you want and I swear she is the happiest dog I have ever owned. Mike Diehl said her sire Erri was always a happy dog, and I suppose that his success would have something to do with the dogs desire to work with the handler.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your female's sire is my girl's grandsire... So interesting! If you want to pm me more about Erri, that would be great!


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## björn

Isn´t "genetic obedience" common in breeds used for herding originally, like GSDs and the malinois, especially the malinois is a breed many describe as even quite sensitive and soft towards the handler. Some say we focus to much today on GSDs who a wants to please the handler and subordinate himself to the handlers whises, a softer type of dog in generall. A dog who wants to cooperate with the handler is positive I guess, but this could mean depending on the person a dog who have an inborn desire to please you, or a dog who can take a correction without being either to sensitive or become aggresive, or a dog who really hasn´t so much inborn desire to submitt towards a person who by force trying to get the dog doing something but still have a ability to cooperate if it sees a meaning doing so, he must look up to the handler as a positive force and not a negative force that tries to dominate the dog. The latter dog I suppose many would call lacking in genetic obedience/will to please even if it could be a good dog for a handler who can train such dogs.

A dog that lacks severly in cooperation ability I guess is a very independent one who sees no benefit in cooperating with humans and who also may lack any real drive to do the work so you don´t have much to work with. I don´think breeds like alaskan malamute or hunting spitz breed for independent work are the ultimate obedience dogs


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