# Shepherd Wolf hybrid



## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

If you had a dog bred with a wolf would your dog's coat change colour with the seasons??? Maybe a goofy question but curious


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Mine never changed color.


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## Wolfie (Jan 20, 2006)

When I cared for a 95% Wolf/Malamute 5yrs ago I never noticed his coat changing color with the seasons.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Wolf pups that start off dark often end up sort of a silver color (black phase) but that's an age thing rather than a seasonal one.


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

You'd have a lot of blowing coat, but colors don't change after adulthood. And you'd have a Wolfdog. Right now most of the animals at Full Moon Farm are blowing coat. I groomed Oengus....mostly Malamute and maybe a touch of Shepherd and Wolf. Save hair for sending off and getting woven into something. I could have groomed and removed hair for an hour......
The term hybrid means they can't reproduce....and BOY CAN THEY REPRODUCE. The wolf and dog have been placed in the same genus ( did I use the right spelling) for some time. 


Powell


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## Shandril2 (Nov 26, 2003)

Mine appeared slightly darker in the summer.
The most notable difference was the amount of coat. In the winter she looked a good 50% larger because of all the thickness.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:The term hybrid means they can't reproduce....and BOY CAN THEY REPRODUCE.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this sentence, but how does hybrid mean they can't reproduce?


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

Generally, hybrids are sterile. 
Tigon/Liger, Hobra/Zorse, Mule/Hinny...typically the offspring of interspecies mating are unable to reproduce because of the different # of chromosomes each parent has.

Wolf dogs are different because wolves and dogs are so close in genetic make-up that they can and do reproduce.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

One of the defining characteristics of a "hybrid" animal is sterility. Conversely, a defining characteristic of specieshood is the ability to produce fertile young. If two individuals can breed and create a fertile offspring, they are by definition of the same species. 

Horse + donkey = mule (hybrid, sterile) 

Dog + wolf = wolf dog (not a technical hybrid, because they can reproduce)


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

My Sable GSDs change in color, nothing dramatic but you can tell


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I must have a different dictionary. My dictionary defines "hybrid" as:

1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

Doesn't say anything about having to be two different species only, or having to be sterile.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

It's not the definition of hybrid, it's the nature of what one is []


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm not sure that brief dictionary listing includes everything you might want to know about hybridization. If you want to know more, this wiki article is a bit more complete, and will explain that the preponderance of animal hybrids are, indeed, sterile. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_%28biology%29

Every example listed at this site of "examples of hybrid animals" are sterile, with the exception of "dog hybrids" used as a term for cross-breeding of dogs. But I don't know of anyone (scientific or otherwise) who uses the term "hybrid" to talk about the offspring of two different dog breeds.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. Hybrids may or may not be fertile. In plants hybridization is actually quite common. In animals, it really depends on the species involved:


Curr Opin Genet Dev. 2007 Dec;17(6):513-8. 
A genomic view of introgression and hybrid speciation.
Baack EJ, Rieseberg LH.

Hybridization in plants and animals is more common and has more complex outcomes than previously realized. Genome-wide analyses of introgression in organisms ranging from oaks to sunflowers to fruit flies show that a substantial fraction of their genomes are permeable to alleles from related species. Hybridization can lead to rapid genomic changes, including chromosomal rearrangements, genome expansion, differential gene expression, and gene silencing, some of which are mediated by transposable elements. These genomic changes may lead to beneficial new phenotypes, and selection for fertility and ecological traits may in turn alter genome structure. Dramatic increases in the availability of genomic tools will produce a new understanding of the genetic nature of species and will resolve a century-old debate over the basis of hybrid vigor, while the natural recombinants found in hybrid zones will permit genetic mapping of species differences and reproductive barriers in nonmodel organisms.

Mary Jane


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

plant hybridization is much different... they aren't mammals lol

I've always wondered if a chimp/human offspring would be sterile or not. We're pretty close genetically, but do possess a different number of chromosomes.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

A quick look on Medline came up with hybridization among apes of different genus (one step higher than species). Animal hybrids occur in the wild and can be fertile. I really can't guess how common it is.

Mary Jane


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:But I don't know of anyone (scientific or otherwise) who uses the term "hybrid" to talk about the offspring of two different dog breeds.


Pretty much everyone who has "designer dogs" refers to them as "hybrids". There's even a Hybrid Dog Registry. And, of course, the dictionary.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Well there you go. I cannot argue with the dictionary. 

Where I come from, when people are talking about hybrid animals we aren't talking about fruit flies, sunflowers, or any of the other "exceptions to the rule." it's not meaningful to split semantic hairs with you or the dictionary. I understand the generally accepted and commonly used meaning of hybrid. And now you do too.


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

While I won't presume to state what people "understand" I will add this. In the wild hybrids of polar bears and grizzlies have been found. They are different species but the resulting offspring is not sterile. Hybrids of lynxes and bobcats have also been found neither are they sterile. So yes, it depends as MaryJane said and is not carved in stone to be completely "understood" to be any one thing or another. Hybrid merely means a cross of one thing and another. Anything beyond that is incidental.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I think people in the scientific field are just to lazy to find a proper term for hybrid









I remember years ago that the actual term for hybrid (at least it seems to be) was sterile.

Like anything, things are found out and change over time. To bad definitions dont changes as quickly. lol


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think this is one of the more misunderstood concepts coming from science to the popular culture - and not because scientists are too lazy. I'm not sure I understood that. 

The misunderstanding stems from something taught in school (by people who are typically not scientists themselves) about the biological species concept. The idea _as it's taught _is that the definition to a separate species is that it can't reproduce with other species and that if and when they mate the resulting offspring are sterile (e.g. a mule).

However, this is _not _actually what it means and "species" is a human attempt to put labels on things that may or may not have such bright dividing lines between them. Plenty of species are very closely related and over time people may change their mind about how to classify animals - same species (lumpers), different species (splitters).

Interspecies hybridization occurs all the time in the natural world. Where one species range abuts the range of another, those animals may mate, and the offspring may be perfectly fertile. There are lots of examples of this from salamanders to songbirds. 

What the biological species concept means is that the line between species when classifying animals is that they typically _don't _reproduce across species under natural conditions, not that they _can't_. Often the reason they don't has to do with geographical or behavioral characteristics (mountain range in the way, the time of year they mate etc) rather than biological incompatibility. 

The reason the dog/wolf cross community has a problem with the word "hybrid" is that it implies dogs and wolves are two different species, even though dogs are descended from wolves and so, of course, they are very closely related. But even in the wild canid realm, wolves (_Canis lupus_) and coyotes (_Canis latrans_) can and do reproduce. Clearly different species. The offspring are pefectly fertile hybrids - and it's okay to use that term to describe them. *Hybrid doesn't mean sterile*. The point of the species concept there is that coyotes and wolves don't reproduce under natural conditions. They do it when there's been a loss of mates because of population declines of, say, wolves in that area. 

Like many things the word has become politicized beyond its scientific meaning. 

All that said, while wolves and dogs are genetically very close, they are behaviorally quite different and IMO it is an unkindness to mix them. Thankfully most "wolf hybrids" are actually northern breed mixes and have no more recent wolf ancestry than my Border Collie, but real wolf/dog crosses, wolf hybrids, wolf dogs, or whatever else you want to call them do exist and they have a pretty difficult time of it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqAll that said, while wolves and dogs are genetically very close, they are behaviorally quite different and IMO it is an unkindness to mix them. Thankfully most "wolf hybrids" are actually northern breed mixes and have no more recent wolf ancestry than my Border Collie, but real wolf/dog crosses, wolf hybrids, wolf dogs, or whatever else you want to call them do exist and they have a pretty difficult time of it.


Amen to that.


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## moribelle (May 20, 2008)

I couldn't agree more. They feel misplaced because they don't know what to do with themselves, it must make them very unsure as well as insecure, and that is a bad mix. I can only say "BAD HUMANS, BAD HUMANS!"


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

My friend has a GSD/wolf mix and he is the most sweetest thing ever. Very polite and very obedient.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

This is one of the problems with wolfdogs - many of those that are supposed to be (even sold as) wolf/dog mixes don't actually have any wolf in them at all and it can be really hard to tell. Of the ones that do really have recent wolf heritage, the amount of wolf in them varies quite a bit. So when you meet a dog that is supposed to be part wolf it may not be or the actual percentage of wolf may be a lot lower than the owner was told. 

If your friend's dog lives like a GSD, stays in the house, is well behaved etc, chances are good that it has little wolf in it - and that's a GOOD thing! Wolfdogs in my experience actually _are_ usually very sweet, can be extremely loving and even gentle, but rarely are high content animals obedient and very very rarely (or maybe never) do they make good house pets. Even low content animals can have definite issues outside the norm for regular dogs but that depends on which side they favor. Some low content animals do okay.


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## Guest (May 26, 2008)

Not necessarily. I've seen full-blooded wolves who were completely responsive to commands. Remember, dogs originated from the wolves that hung around our ancestors' campfires that were more trainable. In wolves and wolf-hybrids, just like dogs, it varies from one to another.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Sorry - should have been clearer. Yes, certainly, wolves can be extremely responsive to commands depending on the training used and the motivation. I'm referring more to the drive that dogs have to do what we want them to do. Wolves simply aren't wired like that. They may have very strong relationships and bonds with people but they're missing that 10,000 + of learning to interact with and please people. Even with individual variation, they're very different from dogs.


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## Guest (May 26, 2008)

I have to differ at least in this much, the wolf desire to fit into the pack would drive a trainable individual to please the human it perceived as alpha. Yes, dogs and wolves are wired differently, but not so far apart as some might think. In fact, dogs such as Alaskan Malamute, Akita, Chow, Siberian Huskies, etc. have many wolf-like traits. Remember too that all dogs are genetically almost indistinguishable from wolves. There is not that vast a gulf between them.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Pack drive and trainability are somewhat different. You would be hard pressed, for example, to train a wolf in obedience sufficiently to obtain a CD (or equivalent) and I have yet to encounter a wolf that could live as a dog - unattended in the house, okay with cats etc, no matter how high its pack drive and strong its relationship with humans. 

Don't get me wrong - I have a deep love and admiration for wolves. That's one of the things that drove me to be a wildlife biologist (I study carnivores and human/wildlife conflict). I am fascinated by both their differences and similarities to dogs.


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## Guest (May 27, 2008)

Oh I never said they were the same by any means. Obviously not, but more alike than most people think.

I bow to your greater knowledge of them. I'm not without some knowledge of wolf hybrids myself. I fostered one for over a year. Fritz was a great one too. Police I knew from providing developmental training for GSDs that went on to become police dogs brought him to me after a drug bust he was seized in. They saw how nice a boy he was and thought if anyone could give him a chance it would be me. I'm happy to say that eventually I placed him with a wolf-hybrid organization that guaranteed a full life for these guys. It is a great place and he did indeed have a full life there. I would've kept him myself if I could've, but as you said, and I well knew, he wouldn't be trustable with children and I was getting married. That was 20 years ago.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I bow to your greater knowledge of them.


Sorry about that! Didn't mean to whack you on the head with my profession I just didn't want you to think I was pulling my info from thin air because I agree there are a lot of misconceptions about them.







I also used to do some wolfdog rescue. That was interesting.



> Quote: Oh I never said they were the same by any means. Obviously not, but more alike than most people think.


I agree they're more alike than some people think - especially in that wolves and wolf dogs are certainly not bloodthirsty monsters and are instead sensitive and loving animals. But on the other hand I think they're considerably _less_ alike than a lot of people think and that's why I tend to pipe up like a broken record on these threads. 

I think there are too many people who believe that if you raise a wolf or wolfdog from puppyhood or if you just love it enough you end up with an incredibly intelligent and beautiful... dog. And I've seen too many cases of that fantasy ending badly. You can raise a wolf with all the socialization, care, and love of a well raised dog but what you end up with is a very different animal. Not an evil or necessarily even dangerous animal, but not a dog. 

The animals that everyone always cites "I had a wolfdog growing up and he was wonderful" are almost always either northern dog mixes or very low content animals. I totally agree that some low content animals can assimilate and live happy dog lives. The problem is the cache of the wolf dog and the tendency for people to bill animals as being considerably higher percentage than they really are. Then someone who knows one of these low/no content animals goes out and gets a real wolfdog and disaster ensues.









Ray Coppinger has done some interesting work comparing wolves and dogs and somewhere I've got an essay John Fentress did about the wolf he raised. I'll try to post links if I can find them.


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## Guest (May 27, 2008)

The biggest difference people are unaware of I should think is how much smarter wolves are than dogs. Their brains are considerably bigger and better developed as I'm sure you're well aware of. I thought it also worth mentioning.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Agreed! Hilariously smarter. I have some good stories about trying to escape proof an enclosure and the resident (high content wolfdog) kept sneaking up and stealing my tools. I don't actually think he was trying to thwart me or understood exactly what was going on but he was one stealthy bugger! He did figure out a lot of things though - how to wear down the batteries without getting shocked when we thought we'd supplement the real fence with an invisible one; how to take the gate off its hinges... 

Other things I wish more people knew - (in addition to the escape artist thing) - most of them have high prey drives and if they do there may be very little you can do about it. Small animals beware! Also that high content animals can be impossible to housebreak and extremely destructive. Also they make poor watch dogs and are not generally protective of people or property. 

They are, however, often extremely loving and as you say, very very intelligent. 

I think most people that think they want one would be much happier with an intelligent GSD.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqAlso they make poor watch dogs and are not generally protective of people or property.


That is exactly correct, and a great way to show the difference between wolves and dogs.

You are alpha with your canine. If that's a wolf/wolfdog...well, it's the alpha's job to be protector.

With domestic dogs, they will take the protective role even though a low ranking wolf would not.

BTW...this thread has turned out fantastic.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks for all of the info!!!


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## Shandril2 (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: pupresqAll that said, while wolves and dogs are genetically very close, they are behaviorally quite different and IMO it is an unkindness to mix them. Thankfully most "wolf hybrids" are actually northern breed mixes and have no more recent wolf ancestry than my Border Collie, but real wolf/dog crosses, wolf hybrids, wolf dogs, or whatever else you want to call them do exist and they have a pretty difficult time of it.
> ...


Yep, Amen to that.
I had a wolf/hybrid when I was young. No other animal ever came close to her .... but her life was not in any way a 'fair' one.


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