# No means no and you know that



## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Bella always had a habbit to where she would pick random stuff off the ground and eat it. Which is very dangerous I think that's what caused her surgery. Well this morning I woke up before everyone and I went to the living room so I won't wake up bella and my wife. I got my headphones im listening to music laying on the couch about a hour later bella runs in. Somehow she didn't see me the first thing she did she sniffed around. 

So I said I'll just let her be im thinking she's going to get water. She then looks around like she's looking for someone and then she eats something off the ground. Then she did it again so all I did was stand up. She immediately saw me and ran because she know she gets in big trouble. She usually gets two fingers on the nose (pop) and then crated for a hour. So instead of going to bed like she usually does she jumps on my bed. I walk in the room calmy and say get down. She gets down she also peed just a little bit then I told her go to bed which she fully understands she stops in her tracks and tried to run to my wife. 

That right there blew my mind so I grab her by her extra skin and walked her in the crate. I yelled no, and I shut the crate bella covered her face after that. So my wife always has something to say about bella getting in trouble she always comes to her defense. Some times no means no, and then my wife will let her out and rub her and say it's okay and stuff like that OMG that **** pisses me off !!! And that's why bella always run to her when she know she does something wrong


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

It's tough if all members of the family aren't all on the same page


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Very tough my wife says "I'm mean to bella" my eyes just go big like are you serious !? I spoil her so much, I'm half the reason why she is well behave it's just when bella get out of line im on her back if I can be. I make sure I'm not to harsh, but bella know what she's doing. GSD are very smart and my wife doesn't understand that she thinks she doesn't know any better. If that's the case she wouldn't have ran when I stood up


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So your dog submissively peed and your response was to yell at her, grab her by the back of her neck and put her in a crate? Your wife is correct. You are the one that is wrong. Bella doesn't run to her because she is babying her. She runs to her because you are scaring her. She's giving you signals like submissive peeing and you are punishing her for it.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Your wife is the one she is running to for safety. Your damaging any chance of strongly bonding with your dog. Training is good but she is telling you that your form of discipline is too harsh for her.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I agree with Jax08.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> So your dog submissively peed and your response was to yell at her, grab her by the back of her neck and put her in a crate? Your wife is correct. You are the one that is wrong. Bella doesn't run to her because she is babying her. She runs to her because you are scaring her. She's giving you signals like submissive peeing and you are punishing her for it.


I'm not punishing her for peeing she's nervous she going to be pee I grabbed her by her extra skin because when she got off the bed she tried to run to my wife bella pees when I yell at her it nothing to me. That's not harsh no where near it im not wrong and that's how I feel if I'm not hurting her abusing her in anyway then I'm not wrong


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Saphire said:


> Your wife is the one she is running to for safety. Your damaging any chance of strongly bonding with your dog. Training is good but she is telling you that your form of discipline is too harsh for her.


If telling her go to bed is to harsh then I wonder how you guys punish your dogs lol


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Please don't stir up my story by saying I punish her because she peed please read very carefully and if you think by telling her go to bed is to harsh then your waisting your time writing to me honestly


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

One quick potent correction applied instantly so there is no confusion on the dog's behalf may have more value than an hour of isolation in a crate as the correction.....I'd maybe rethink the use of the crate in your procedure. Perhaps, revisiting your "leave it " training and making it more bulletproof will eliminate many of these other problems. 

SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes way to harsh. Listen to what your dog is saying. If you can clearly tell by her physical reaction - that she is retreating,urinating, and covering her face with the blanket- she more then got the message. You obviously went to far.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm not punishing her for peeing she's nervous she going to be pee I grabbed her by her extra skin because when she got off the bed she tried to run to my wife *bella pees when I yell at her* it nothing to me. That's not harsh no where near it im not wrong and that's *how I feel if I'm not hurting her abusing her in anyway then I'm not wrong*


Read what you are writing. She is submissively peeing when you yell at her. She SCREAMING at you "don't! You are scaring me! I'll be good!!"

It has EVERYTHING to do with you.

Well...if you can't possibly be wrong then it must be all your wife's fault. Must be. Cuz you aren't wrong. Even though you are.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> Yes way to harsh. Listen to what your dog is saying. If you can clearly tell by her physical reaction - that she is retreating,urinating, and covering her face with the blanket- she more then got the message. You obviously went to far.


Omg telling her to go to bed she runs to my bed and she lets out a drop is very harsh lol I can't believe that sorry


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not punishing her for peeing she's nervous she going to be pee I grabbed her by her extra skin because when she got off the bed she tried to run to my wife *bella pees when I yell at her* it nothing to me. That's not harsh no where near it im not wrong and that's *how I feel if I'm not hurting her abusing her in anyway then I'm not wrong*
> ...


And in my eyes there's nothing wrong with shouting no at your dog when he or she gets out of hand nothing wrong with that at all so nope I'm not wrong she usually gets the point right there


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ILoveBella478 said:


> If telling her go to bed is to harsh then I wonder how you guys punish your dogs lol


I don't "punish" my dogs. And not a single one runs from me or pees when I tell them to get off the bed. Do I give them fair corrections? Yes. Will I go them them and put them in a crate if they won't settle? Yes.

Dogs will eat things off the ground. They are dogs. They will eat bugs, horse manure, lick grass and trees where other animals have peed. When I see them doing that, I tell them "Leave it". 

I don't "punish" my dogs. I teach them what a command means.

If this is your idea of dog training then please leave the neighbors alone and don't touch their puppy.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ILoveBella478 said:


> If telling her go to bed is to harsh then I wonder how you guys punish your dogs lol


Isolating a dog from it's human, as a form of punishment is pretty harsh....IMHO. I'd rather take that hour and hook my dog up to a lead ( or not if one isn't required ) and train the proper behavior after correcting the undesired behavior.


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ILoveBella478 said:


> And in my eyes there's nothing wrong with shouting no at your dog when he or she gets out of hand nothing wrong with that at all so nope I'm not wrong she usually gets the point right there



I read it on the internet so it must be true.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> Isolating a dog from it's human, as a form of punishment is pretty harsh....IMHO. I'd rather take that hour and hook my dog up to a lead ( or not if one isn't required )* and train the proper behavior after correcting the undesired behavior.*
> 
> 
> SuperG


Are you correcting because the dog already knows? For instance, when I teach "leave it", I do it with food in my hand and food on the floor. They only get fed from my hand and I have my foot ready to cover the food on the floor. Once they understand that, then I have no issue giving them a correction for not leaving something. But to correct the dog without teaching them what "leave it" means is unfair.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Are you correcting because the dog already knows? For instance, when I teach "leave it", I do it with food in my hand and food on the floor. They only get fed from my hand and I have my foot ready to cover the food on the floor. Once they understand that, then I have no issue giving them a correction for not leaving something. But to correct the dog without teaching them what "leave it" means is unfair.


I do it the same exact way


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Not every dog is the same and can handle the same kind of training methods. Yelling "no" at some dogs might work, but it sounds like your Bella is not the kind of dog that should be dealt with in that way. Even though the initial behavior might have been undesirable, in the end it sounds like she gets the message that she will be punished for submitting to you and telling you you're the boss, which is probably very confusing for her.

It sounds like Miss Bella might do better with a positive reinforcement method of training her when it comes to eating things off the ground. As others have suggested, look up ways to teach the "leave it" command, and reward her when she gets it right. The reward can be praise and a show of affection, or treats, or whatever works for her. Eventually you can taper off use of the reward and she should end up with a strong, reliable reaction whenever you tell her to leave something alone.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

ILoveBella478 said:


> And in my eyes there's nothing wrong with shouting no at your dog when he or she gets out of hand nothing wrong with that at all so nope I'm not wrong she usually gets the point right there


she is a young pup...she needs direction not correction. this thread makes me very sad.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Are you correcting because the dog already knows? For instance, when I teach "leave it", I do it with food in my hand and food on the floor. They only get fed from my hand and I have my foot ready to cover the food on the floor. Once they understand that, then I have no issue giving them a correction for not leaving something. But to correct the dog without teaching them what "leave it" means is unfair.



This is how I was taught to teach "leave it" too. Pretty easy. Hey, if an Italian Greyhound can learn leave it quickly, a GSD is a piece of cake...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

The problem with yelling/shouting at a dog is eventually the dog will delay it's adherence to your commands until it is shouted at...because they are smart ....obviously there are cases where this doesn't apply but generally once the shouting/yelling has commenced so have the emotions....commands given with a negative/frustrated/emotionally charged attitude can truly be counterproductive in the overall working relationship. 

There was a video of a former member working with her dog and had no idea how horribly she was ruining the dog by her berating of the dog verbally and it created a dog which simply chose to avoid her....and she did this all because she thought it was funny. I am not saying this is the same in your case but...when a dog starts to avoid you or not go into a crate ( for example ) where it no longer has the ability to avoid you or any maneuvering room, there are some clear messages being sent by the dog.


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

punishment thread. Must resist urge to post...oops


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > If telling her go to bed is to harsh then I wonder how you guys punish your dogs lol
> ...


Bella knows her commands she learned fast and we still go over them she defitenly knows what no
Means or leave it we constantly have to say it to her. Her main punishment is going to the crate. And as of the other puppy the way they handle their dog is on them im showing them how I taught bella her commands. But like I said I don't abuse bella I don't go out and lash at her. Still I think your waisting your time telling me I'm to harsh just like my wife is nothing wrong with yelling at your dog when they're out of place


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> she is a young pup...she needs direction not correction. this thread makes me very sad.


Popping her on the nose and dragging to a crate is not a very good way to establish a bond with your puppy. The submissive peeing when you reach for her shows that she is afraid. Instead of punishing her for picking things up off the floor (and why are there all these things on the floor that she can eat??), teach her leave it - the way Jax08 suggested is a good one. These guys are really really smart. You don't have to be heavy handed or yell at them to train them. While some of them can handle it, it's just not necessary. There are better ways to train, and frankly, it would be more enjoyable for both of you.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

SuperG said:


> One quick potent correction applied instantly so there is no confusion on the dog's behalf may have more value than an hour of isolation in a crate as the correction.....I'd maybe rethink the use of the crate in your procedure. Perhaps, revisiting your "leave it " training and making it more bulletproof will eliminate many of these other problems.
> 
> SuperG





ILoveBella478 said:


> Omg telling her to go to bed she runs to my bed and she lets out a drop is very harsh lol I can't believe that sorry


Listen we are all human and we all loose our patience and I am very patient. The other day my dog grabbed food off the table again. I had a bad moment and was mad and grabbed him put in the crate then yelled knock it off real loud. The look on his face was so sad like his heart was broken ,which i never seen before , broke my heart and knew I was to much. Let him out of crate and gave hugs and kisses. I just have to work on the stealing the food from the table and put him in the crate when we are eating and its hectic. He needs to get the idea but he doesnt need to be upset or scared about it. Some dogs pee when they get nervous or excited. She also ran from you and hid her face once she was in the crate. Did she pee because she was excited and playful and was getting your message? Was she running from you toward your wife in a playful teasing manner because she wasnt getting your message?Was she hiding her face from you because she playing a game because she didnt realize you were mad and grabbed and her and put her in the crate. Or did she get your message and was reacting out of fear. You have to read her body language as you train and correct your dog. You have to be honest with yourself then you can fix it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So her confidence level is diminishing day by day...you do not want that to happen, do you?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ILoveBella478 said:


> *Still I think your waisting your time* telling me I'm to harsh just like my wife is nothing wrong with yelling at your dog when they're out of place



I concur. I am totally wasting my time. Totally. Discussing with a rock would be more productive.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Are you correcting because the dog already knows? For instance, when I teach "leave it", I do it with food in my hand and food on the floor. They only get fed from my hand and I have my foot ready to cover the food on the floor. Once they understand that, then I have no issue giving them a correction for not leaving something. But to correct the dog without teaching them what "leave it" means is unfair.


I never trained "leave it " with any item that the dog would ever take possession of....so I didn't use food except as a reward.. it seemed like it might send the wrong signal to the dog as maybe the dog could eventually have the "leave it food " if the dog waited. I actually started training "leave it" when she was interested in eating her crap....I'd leash her up when there was a crap or two in the yard and wander with her...she honed in on it and was told " leave it" ...I used leash pressure ( flat collar ) to direct her away and rewarded with a food scrap and praise....repeated with many items in a similar fashion especially mushrooms growing in the backyard. She graduated to off lead and obeyed and was rewarded...she ended up simply hearing "leave it" and did as such....she still gets a " good leave it" on occasion as her reward.

SuperG


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> onyx'girl said:
> 
> 
> > she is a young pup...she needs direction not correction. this thread makes me very sad.
> ...


The popping on the nose I never had that idea until my breeder reccomended it I never liked that she said it worked for her. I Didn't touch her nose her nose it's just when she ran to my wife I grabbed her by her extra skin and put her in the crate I don't hit bella unless it's reallly necessary even when it comes to hittin I simply grab the muzzle and say no and let go


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kind of the same philosophy. Reward from your hand and redirect from object on the ground. 

Leave it is one of my fave commands. It translate to everything. Stuff on the ground, other dogs, other people.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ILoveBella478 said:


> And in my eyes there's nothing wrong with shouting no at your dog when he or she gets out of hand nothing wrong with that at all so nope I'm not wrong she usually gets the point right there


How old is Bella? I've certainly yelled at my dogs from time to time, but if I were having to go around yelling at them all the time that would indicate to me that there was a failure in my training, and that I needed to do a better job teaching them what TO do so I didn't have to be mad at them all the time for misbehaving. I'd work on teaching them not to misbehave in the first place. 

You say she usually gets the point when you yell at her, but it doesn't sound like she does since she's still doing what you don't want her to do. Please listen to Jax and the others. None of us know everything there is to know about dog training and behavior, and thinking that you're doing everything exactly right and nobody else can teach you anything is counterproductive. Lose your defensive attitude and listen to what everyone is trying to tell you.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Kind of the same philosophy. Reward from your hand and redirect from object on the ground.
> 
> Leave it is one of my fave commands. It translate to everything. Stuff on the ground, other dogs, other people.


Amen to that.....


SuperG


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > And in my eyes there's nothing wrong with shouting no at your dog when he or she gets out of hand nothing wrong with that at all so nope I'm not wrong she usually gets the point right there
> ...


Bella is going on 7 months and actually I don't yell her at her all time that's where a lot of you guys are failing to realize she doesn't get in trouble often she's very well behave she didn't start this peeing until 3 weeks ago she even happy pees no when she really excited she does that rarely to


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

If im not responding to you it's not cause I'm ignoring it won't let me respond it keeps saying I'm not writing enough when I'm writing paragraphs 

Super G I will private message you about the corrections. It won't let me respond to you either


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Submissive soft doggy 


SuperG


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

ILoveBella478 said:


> She then looks around like she's looking for someone and then she eats something off the ground. Then she did it again so all I did was stand up. She immediately saw me and ran because she know she gets in big trouble. She usually gets two fingers on the nose (pop) and then crated for a hour. So instead of going to bed like she usually does she jumps on my bed. I walk in


The act of you standing up and her immediately running away, tells me that she is afraid of you and your reactions. I'd stop the yelling, and the nose popping, and the muzzle grabbing. All that stuff is counterproductive. Look, no one is trying to tell you that you are a bad dog owner, just that there are better ways to train a puppy that will get better results.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Kind of the same philosophy. Reward from your hand and redirect from object on the ground.
> 
> Leave it is one of my fave commands. It translate to everything. Stuff on the ground, other dogs, other people.


I seriously love leave it too. And drop it, if I didn't see something in time to say leave it, lol.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I


dogfaeries said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > She then looks around like she's looking for someone and then she eats something off the ground. Then she did it again so all I did was stand up. She immediately saw me and ran because she know she gets in big trouble. She usually gets two fingers on the nose (pop) and then crated for a hour. So instead of going to bed like she usually does she jumps on my bed. I walk in
> ...


Thank you


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I would think the op needs to verbally correct the dog *Before* it picks up what it is not supposed to get.

A simply 'Tssh' would have worked in this scenario instead of the chasing the dog around business after it did what it did.

What is the point of loosing the trust of the dog?

If you are clear and calm then the dog will learn your rules over time.

I think the craft of dog training begins with self control and not loosing ones temper or patience.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

dogfaeries said:


> The act of you standing up and her immediately running away, tells me that she is afraid of you and your reactions. I'd stop the yelling, and the nose popping, and the muzzle grabbing. All that stuff is counterproductive. *Look, no one is trying to tell you that you are a bad dog owner, just that there are better ways to train a puppy that will get better results.*


Yes - please listen to them rather than taking it personally and getting defensive!


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> SuperG said:
> 
> 
> > One quick potent correction applied instantly so there is no confusion on the dog's behalf may have more value than an hour of isolation in a crate as the correction.....I'd maybe rethink the use of the crate in your procedure. Perhaps, revisiting your "leave it " training and making it more bulletproof will eliminate many of these other problems.
> ...


Thank your for understanding


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

With my pups, I trained them to bring me whatever they picked up off the floor, I praised them and traded it for a treat. There wasn't a lot of stuff on the floor they couldn't/shouldn't have because we puppy proofed the house as much as possible. But this can be turned into a game with the puppies own toys - bring me your toy, give it to me for a treat, and then you get it back again. If puppy has something they're not supposed to have, I simply don't give it back after praising and rewarding them for bringing it to me. 

Totally solves the keep away issue too, where puppy makes a game of grabbing stuff and running off with stuff and the owner having to chase the puppy around the house or yard to get it back.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> I seriously love leave it too. And drop it, if I didn't see something in time to say leave it, lol.



Leave it, Out, and platz...3 best commands ever


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> With my pups, I trained them to bring me whatever they picked up off the floor, I praised them and traded it for a treat. There wasn't a lot of stuff on the floor they couldn't/shouldn't have because we puppy proofed the house as much as possible. But this can be turned into a game with the puppies own toys - bring me your toy, give it to me for a treat, and then you get it back again. If puppy has something they're not supposed to have, I simply don't give it back after praising and rewarding them for bringing it to me.
> 
> Totally solves the keep away issue too, where puppy makes a game of grabbing stuff and running off with stuff and the owner having to chase the puppy around the house or yard to get it back.


Love it! 

I instituted this "policy" of trading back when I got my first Italian Greyhound puppy about 15 years ago. I didn't want my 9 year old son chasing an IG around trying to get his stuff back. Worked great, and the puppy thought it was a fun game. Nothing was ever torn up as a result either. Been doing it this way ever since.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> I seriously love leave it too. And drop it, if I didn't see something in time to say leave it, lol.


I thought I was the only one with this philosophy


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Leave it, Out, and platz...3 best commands ever


Absolutely. It covers just about everything, lol.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> With my pups, I trained them to bring me whatever they picked up off the floor, I praised them and traded it for a treat. There wasn't a lot of stuff on the floor they couldn't/shouldn't have because we puppy proofed the house as much as possible. But this can be turned into a game with the puppies own toys - bring me your toy, give it to me for a treat, and then you get it back again. If puppy has something they're not supposed to have, I simply don't give it back after praising and rewarding them for bringing it to me.
> 
> Totally solves the keep away issue too, where puppy makes a game of grabbing stuff and running off with stuff and the owner having to chase the puppy around the house or yard to get it back.


I can't tell you how many times I go to put my shoes on and Brennan or Apollo have my shoe in their mouth in the yard. The trading only works on occasion. I spend a lot of time hopping through the yard


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My Italian Greyhound Zelda was the first one that I taught this. She loved trading things so much, that she began stealing things just to get a treat. One day she stood on the coffee table (life with an IG) and barked at me. I knew she wanted a treat, but told her to go away. She disappeared into my bedroom, came back with one of my sandals, and sat in front of me. "Now you have to give me a treat". Well, she was right, and I gave her a treat, and then shut the bedroom door. She was one clever little dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a saying I got from someone I always listen to ILB. "Their perception is our reality" It's her perception of harsh that matters. Just a guess, but I think you may have been a little inconsistent or just haven't given some things enough time to be actually "trained" and that's causing enough confusion in her that yelling etc.. comes across as harsh to her.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I'll take a stab (only read OP's original post and a few responses).

You aren't being consistent or clear. Time and punishment are off. I don't believe a dog being put in a crate for an hour as a "punishment" is the dog learning anything. While I'm not totally against a flick on the nose as punishment, I don't think it's the best idea here. If I had a consistent problem with a dog (6 month old puppy in this case), with eating things that put it in the hospital. I'd put a martingale and drag line on him/her (if puppy), "set up" scenarios of things on the floor for the dog to be interested in (if the dog wasn't mine). When he/she showed interest or tried to get the thing on the floor, he'd get a pop/pop on the collar, the "leave it command" and maybe another command to come to me or lay down or whatever, which I'd reward (I don't think you NEED this part, I just like it). Depending on the dog's "drive" to get to whatever is on the ground I would adjust the punishment accordingly. Maybe go to a prong, for example. Rewards for complying to my other commands.

If the dog was MINE, I'd have a drag line on the dog at all times and correct things I didn't like in the moment. Counter surfing, couch jumping, cat chasing, child chasing (my male loved to jump on my toddler when he, toddler, was 2 and male was 3 months or so....little). Then we'd just move on. 

I did the same thing with my male, at a much younger age, with the toddler jumping. He had a drag line on, and was popped back for jumping on my 2 year old with an "OFF" command. It only took 2 or 3 times, and he never did it again and still doesn't now. I actually have a picture I caught of him jumping up perfectly vertically to get a "lick" in on my son, without laying a paw on him. These dogs are too dang smart. ;-)

The whole big body posturing, chasing, flicking, kenneling, etc...Is all so busy and confusing, imo. It just creates a state of chaos. I think Jax's method would work if done from the get go, and may take some time that most pet owners won't commit (just being honest). 

On a little puppy? Sure. But a 6+ month old that's already been put in the hospital for eating things and is this far down the "you scare me...I'm confused...I have no idea what you want" path. I'd probably up the ante at this point (if I was given the dog, not the one that created the issue). If I created the issue, or it was my dog, I'd put a drag line on like I said earlier. But, the handler would have to get better at timing, consistency, and clarity, with a dog they've already set standards and created relationship dynamics with.

Disclosure. I am NOT saying my thoughts are the only way, or the "right way." Just some off the top of my head thoughts while drinking my coffee this morning and I'd love to hear other trainer's thoughts. I've only been "training" for 2.5 years (pet dogs for the last year or so....under the guidance of someone doing it much much longer than I), and usually "leave it" is kind of brought into our other obedience. IE...dog is put in a down around distractions and punished for breaking the down (distractions are later on in the training, not from the get go obviously). Or is heeling around distractions and punished for breaking the "heel" etc...I've haven't specifically dealt with a dog that needs to be "broken" of eating things off the ground. But I have dealt with counter surfing, couch jumping, etc...Where the dog was just punished quickly, and in the moment, for those things, while we worked on other things. It wasn't a "big setup" just something that was dealt with in the moment and moved on. 

However, relationships were built with these dogs. I wasn't just the "bringer of punishment," the dogs are happy to be worked, happy to see me, happy to comply....we had a relationship that wasn't going to be ruined by punishment for counter surfing, couch jumping, etc....Because it was clear and consistent and balanced. If that makes sense. These are mostly dogs with years of bad habits built into them, dogs "given up on" and about to be taken to the pound, or 9-15 month olds that had basically had no structure or guidance or obedience and just had run of the house. Most of the time they just needed clarity and consistency. I know I keep repeating that, but I just see a lack of it time and time again.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I think the craft of dog training begins with self control and not loosing ones temper or patience.



Completely agree....sounds so darned easy, doesn't it ? LOL. 

The upside to taking your approach is I have become more patient and more in control of my emotions/temper when working with my dog. Even though my expectations are higher for my current dog than previous dogs, we have achieved much more....and a lot of it has to do with exactly what you posted......now, if somehow I could transfer this better control of my emotions/temper/self control towards humans...I'd really be on the roll.


SuperG


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

A reliable down is my absolute favorite command as well. It's one of the first things to be taught to a new client dog. SO many people come in and say their dog knows...and they list off the usual, sit, down, stay, come...etc....But when asked to perform these with us, the dog's act like they are being spoken a foreign language. Or their butt hovers over the ground for a second, long enough to get a treat (if their food drive overpowers there...new people drive), and they're crazy again. I don't really blame the owners, it's so so so common. The owners just need to be taught, like the dogs, that things are just going to be consistent and clear now. Down means down until I release you, sit means sit until I release you, heal means heal until I release you. Once they (the people and the dogs) realize and implement this new mindset, things usually go quickly and smoothly.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> There's a saying I got from someone I always listen to ILB. *"Their perception is our reality" It's her perception of harsh that matters.* Just a guess, but I think you may have been a little inconsistent or just haven't given some things enough time to be actually "trained" and that's causing enough confusion in her that yelling etc.. comes across as harsh to her.


YES! This dog is saying loud and clear in her mannerisms that it's too harsh. And I totally agree that's she's probably confused, which makes the yelling unfair and stressful for her.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

While your ways might not be my ways, it may be that if your dog was of a different temperament, nothing you did during that incident may have fazed her. My first dog was a lab and all I had to do was to look at him sternly and that was enough. Newlie is my first GSD and requires more discipline that Max, but he is still pretty soft for a shepherd. Different dogs sometimes require different methods. It seems to me that Bella just requires a softer touch from you. I know that you love her and are trying to keep her safe, but I think you are scaring her a little bit. A firm "No" might be all that you need with her. Above all, you want to treat her in such a way that she will run to YOU when she is scared and doesn't know what to do.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

I will admit it, I am not a trainer, and my boy is not that great.. He does sit, down, stay, heel.. He lets me walk out the door first, he knows leave it and no. When we see something on our walk, I just say caca, he leaves it. We are working on greeting people at the door, he get soso excited.. He is frustrating, but so dang cute, when he is bad, I go quiet, then all I can do is laugh.. Silence, he dislikes that, and thats punishment enough for the both of us.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Debanneball said:


> I will admit it, I am not a trainer, and my boy is not that great.. He does sit, down, stay, heel.. He lets me walk out the door first, he knows leave it and no. When we see something on our walk, I just say caca, he leaves it. We are working on greeting people at the door, he get soso excited.. He is frustrating, but so dang cute, when he is bad, I go quiet, then all I can do is laugh.. Silence, he dislikes that, and thats punishment enough for the both of us.


It sounds like your doing great! Add some new tools:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6954578-post4.html
The "Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog" should help you to get where you want.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Plenty of good advise has been given! The "problem" as I see it is not so much about the dog as it is the owner??

The "secret" to training dogs is to be flexible in what you do, what you know and what your willing to learn.

All the advise in the world is useless if an "owner" shows little flexibility in there thinking.

Just my two cents.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> It sounds like your doing great! Add some new tools:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6954578-post4.html
> The "Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog" should help you to get where you want.


Thanks...will do! It sure would be nice to have people walk in safely!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> With my pups, I trained them to bring me whatever they picked up off the floor, I praised them and traded it for a treat. There wasn't a lot of stuff on the floor they couldn't/shouldn't have because we puppy proofed the house as much as possible. But this can be turned into a game with the puppies own toys - bring me your toy, give it to me for a treat, and then you get it back again. If puppy has something they're not supposed to have, I simply don't give it back after praising and rewarding them for bringing it to me.
> 
> Totally solves the keep away issue too, where puppy makes a game of grabbing stuff and running off with stuff and the owner having to chase the puppy around the house or yard to get it back.


Such a great idea


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

I hope you decide to take some of the great advice one here on board  she sounds like a sweet, soft pup who doesn't do well with strong corrections. 

Whichever way you go, I still think you and your wife need to raise this pup with the *same* clear, fair, and consistent approach. These dogs are so perceptive, I bet she is also picking up on the frustration between her two humans when there is a disagreement.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Whacking her nose is a poor way to try to teach her anything. That's why she ran away from you. Why not prevent her from eating things by sweeping them up?
And submissively peeing will never get better with you manhandling her. You'll be lucky if you don't get bitten doing that.
I don't see this ending well for Bella!


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Read threw the pervious post please


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> I can't tell you how many times I go to put my shoes on and Brennan or Apollo have my shoe in their mouth in the yard. The trading only works on occasion. I spend a lot of time hopping through the yard


That's a management issue.  If you have dogs that aren't yet to the point where they won't grab shoes and run off with them, shoes shouldn't be left on the floor. 

Keefer was never a destructive chewer, and although Halo was, (and still is, to a certain extent!), shoes have pretty much always been safe around them. I think Halo chewed the laces off Tom's Keen sandals once, and that was it. But even so, I STILL always put my shoes up when I take them off, it's just habit not to leave them on the floor. Tom's shoes are of course, always strewn about the floor.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Read threw the pervious post please



You can use the more formal through or the less formal thru... but threw??


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I taught it was threwh


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> With my pups, I trained them to bring me whatever they picked up off the floor, I praised them and traded it for a treat. There wasn't a lot of stuff on the floor they couldn't/shouldn't have because we puppy proofed the house as much as possible. But this can be turned into a game with the puppies own toys - bring me your toy, give it to me for a treat, and then you get it back again. If puppy has something they're not supposed to have, I simply don't give it back after praising and rewarding them for bringing it to me.
> 
> Totally solves the keep away issue too, where puppy makes a game of grabbing stuff and running off with stuff and the owner having to chase the puppy around the house or yard to get it back.





Chai said:


> Such a great idea


I should add a disclaimer that this can sort of backfire, lol. Halo loved this game SO much that she would look for things to bring me. Eyeglass and TV remotes off the table were some favorites. She was pretty good about stuff on the floor (shoes, clothes, dropped pens and such), she preferred a challenge, so she'd get things off the kitchen counter (knives, yikes!), and off tables and our desks. She'll still grab potholders out of the kitchen and chew them, and is not totally reliable, at 6 years old, not to eat the TP right off the roll. 

Yes, she really did this - 3 times! (we're apparently slow learners) :wild:










She made up a game where she brings me her bone to hold for her while she sits or stands there and chews it, and she'll also bring me her precious Orbee ball so I can take it away and give it back to her. She'll just sit in front of me with it in her mouth until I do, and then she'll go lay down and chew it. When Keefer was a puppy, if he picked up something off the floor I could say: "what have got, is that for me?" and he'd come to me with it all happy with tail wagging. 

Here's Halo's game:






I love the trust that this shows. :wub:


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm officially in love with Halo. Can I have her?


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Read threw the pervious post please


I do not know to which *previous* post you are referring, but my comments remain the same.
Smacking your dog in the nose makes no sense at all, you have a management issue with her, and a relationship issue.
If she's submissive peeing already don't jerk her around by the scruff of the neck! This isn't rocket science! A dog who submissively pees is saying "I give up, don't hurt me" and you went and hurt her anyway.

This dog is going to wind up biting someone one of these days. Their jaws could crush our hands yet they choose not to do that, but how long can you go on being physically abusive to a dog and expect it to not finally retaliate?
At the very least you're wrecking your relationship with her; at the worst you are going to wind up being bitten and then what'll happen? Bella off to the vet for that final ride?? 
Or give her away or sell her because "you can't trust her"? Has it occurred to you that _she_ can't trust _you_?
This is all on you and your "training methods". I find it laughable you'd even consider "training" your neighbor's dog! If they have any sense at all they'll decline your generous "offer"


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

shepherdmom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > Read threw the pervious post please
> ...


I'm sorry professor I used a incorrect term. Is there anything else you would like to point out ? Like how you guys really get on my nerves sometimes. Or even better, how you guys can be very judgmental. Go write a paper or something.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm sorry professor I used a incorrect term. Is there anything else you would like to point out ? Like how you guys really get on my nerves sometimes. Or even better, how you guys can be very judgmental. Go write a paper or something.


Funny.....heheheheheh

SuperG


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm sorry professor I used a incorrect term. Is there anything else you would like to point out ? Like how you guys really get on my nerves sometimes. Or even better, how you guys can be very judgmental. Go write a paper or something.


What your seeing is frustration. People who have been where you are, new gsd owner. Have made mistakes and learnt from them. Have watched others make mistakes and helped them to correct or avoid.

You honestly do not appear to want any suggestions or refuse to see how to correct what is going on in your home. Your wife thinks it's wrong, peoe here think it's wrong but you still defend the path your taking.

I believe you love your dog and I believe because of that you don't feel your being harsh or damaging. Try some new approaches before discounting them, see how they can work and watch a beautiful bond develop.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm sorry professor I used a incorrect term. Is there anything else you would like to point out ? Like how you guys really get on my nerves sometimes. Or even better, how you guys can be very judgmental. Go write a paper or something.


Many people learn from their mistakes and although it is frustrating to have them pointed out I usually end up appreciating it in the long run. Posting in different places over the years has improved my grammar and spelling significantly.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Many people learn from their mistakes and although it is frustrating to have them pointed out I usually end up appreciating it in the long run. Posting in different places over the years has improved my grammar and spelling significantly.


I write well anyway but here's a helpful tool for people struggling with proper punctuation and spelling and general language usage 

https://app.grammarly.com/


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm sorry professor I used a incorrect term. Is there anything else you would like to point out ? Like how you guys really get on my nerves sometimes. Or even better, how you guys can be very judgmental. Go write a paper or something.


oh boy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

dogfaeries said:


> I'm officially in love with Halo. Can I have her?


Somedays……yes. :help: We love her fluffy little butt too, she's a pretty awesome dog when she's not being totally incorrigible.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

This is interesting...


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

another pointless thread.
Why make one when you will ignore the advice given? :|


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## Sheera67 (Mar 29, 2015)

Some of the comments in this thread directed to the op are very childish , on the other hand some of them are very valid , do some people actually get a kick out of belittling people or is it just stupidity. 

If the op doesn't want to listen to ideas from other posters then that is his choice, one post of advice is all it takes and move on to another thread. Leaching around to see if the op has replied back with comments that are not PC is not really helpful 

Some things op has said and some things posters have said on this thread are just a complete waste of time :flushed:


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