# Breeders choosing puppies for buyers.



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Don't know if this is the right section for this topic or not but here goes:

How in the world do "breeders" choose puppies for buyers an age of less than say 6 or 7 weeks of age?

It really bothers me when people post pictures of "their" puppy and the puppy is sometimes only 3 or 4 weeks old. (And sometimes LESS.)

There is NO way, the breeder could know what type of temperment the puppy is going to have and if said puppy will be a good match for the buyer or not. 

It seems to me that the only way the breeders could be choosing who gets what puppy (when the puppy is THAT young) is by color and/or sex rather than by matching the puppies personality to the buyers wants and needs. 

When I see that a puppy has already been chosen for a buyer at that young of an age, for ME that is a giant "red flag" against that breeder. 

If I was buying a puppy and the breeder was sending me pictures of a specific puppy at that young of an age, saying that was "my" puppy, I would FREAK. And likely take my buisness elsewhere. 

Am I totally "off" in my thinking?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

No, you're not off in your thinking. You're spot on.

The only way to make selections of pups at 3-4-5 weeks old is by physical attributes. There is no where near enough personality development yet to base customer selections on anything but physical appearance. While some personality traits begin to surface at those ages, there is still far, far too much left to be seen in each pup to be making lifelong predictions of temperament.

At 6 weeks personalities are really becoming apparent and sorting themselves out. By 7-8 weeks, you can get a very good idea of personality, particularly if things have remained consistent in the past couple of weeks (significant personality changes from 5-6 weeks to 7-8 weeks may require more time to really evaluate).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, Tracy, I wonder too. In the "refund" thread I explained how I obtained Nikon. My breeder does not even accept deposits, b/c you never know who is going to be suitable for what litter/pup and she told me the demand always far exceeds the supply so she doesn't need deposits to guarantee placing the puppy. Anyway, we went to see the litter at 4 weeks, but did not select then. I wanted a male and I wanted to do conformation (Sieger style) so we knew that the long coats were out. That narrowed it to 3 stock coated males. Even among those three there was quite a difference in size and personality. I was not placed with Nikon until the day I picked him up at 8 weeks. The breeder wanted to keep a male for herself or a co-owner too, so we had the three stock coated males out and she was watching them move to evaluate conformation. For me she chose the smallest of the three, to ensure he would be within the standard size and no go over. I liked the fuller coat of the sire and he was the fuzziest of the three (but not a long coat). The biggest one was pushy, not in an aggressive way, but he definitely made sure his needs were met first. Since it was my first puppy and first male GSD I plan to keep intact, we figured the pushiness I could live without (the couple that got him have had GSDs for longer than me). And on that day, Nikon sort of came to me and didn't mind me handling him and such, so we kind of picked each other, but it's not like I walked up to the expen and chose based on his looks. I was there for several hours and the choice was already narrowed to three! It really boiled down to the breeder having raised these pups in her home and knowing each one, and Nikon seemingly tolerating my handling and ways of interacting. I honestly did not want to pick on my own. If I had picked just based on looks and 1/2 hour spent with the litter at 4 weeks, I would not have Nikon







. I've spent some time with many of the other pups since that day, and there are differences between them. There are things I love about Nikon that other owners might not like and vice versa. I feel I did get the most appropriate puppy for *me*, and I don't see how we could have picked at 4 weeks.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i always wondered how a breeder can pick a puppy for someone at 8 weeks, 10 weeks, etc. i think we as puppy owners shape how our puppy's are going to be. the way we socialize, train and give general care makes our puppy's the dog their going to be. i know the line type has something to do with traits but what we do with our puppy's has a very strong influence also.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

thanks for a straight answer on how breeder's pick puppy's for you at such a young age.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:i think we as puppy owners shape how our puppy's are going to be. the way we socialize, train and give general care makes our puppy's the dog their going to be.


True. What a breeder does is pick potential. After that it is up to the handler to shape, utilize and help the dog realize that potential.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I like Gabor's comment when people asked - can you guarantee working ability? 

He would ask, can YOU guarantee training and handling ability, helper ability ........


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedad i think we as puppy owners shape how our puppy's are going to be. the way we socialize, train and give general care makes our puppy's the dog their going to be.


This is true to an extent. BUT, if a buyer wants a calmer puppy with the pups main "job" being a family companion, and they get a VERY high drive pup that would make a working Mal or BC look comatose, no matter WHAT the buyer does, they are likely going to be unhappy with their purchase. Because no amount to training or socalizing is going to make that puppy a naturally calmer, more mellow dog.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi always wondered how a breeder can pick a puppy for someone at 8 weeks, 10 weeks, etc. i think we as puppy owners shape how our puppy's are going to be. the way we socialize, train and give general care makes our puppy's the dog their going to be. i know the line type has something to do with traits but what we do with our puppy's has a very strong influence also.


This is true. The owners shape much of what the dog becomes. But the raw materials the owner has to work with are determined by genetics. Environment cannot change genetics and it is this raw material, the genetic ingredients so to speak, that breeders are evaluating and using to place pups in homes. Most of these raw materials are apparent by 6-9 weeks of age. Some, those that tend to develop later in life, are not. But none are apparent at 3-4 weeks.

Pups are not all created equal in terms of what genetic ingredients they bring to the table. Therefore, determining what ingredients the pup has, and matching that up with the recipe that the new owner has in mind for the dog, is the surest way to ensure everyone, people AND dog, are happy long term.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, some owners have a more specific idea of what they want in their new dog. I think a lot of owners will be shaped by their puppy, kind of learn as they go (that was me with Kenya though she was not a puppy but my first dog) and work with what they have. With Nikon I had certain activities in mind though and that helped determined which of the puppies the breeder should choose from.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

tho not a breeder, I have consider myself darn lucky to have gotten three dogs, picked by their breeders who were exactly what I wanted..

None were picked out for me at 3,4,5,6 , 7 weeks of age,,but with each dog, I gave a pretty detailed "list" of what I was looking for in a dog, what I wanted to do, goals I had, my lifestyle. I never had a specific "look" or "color" in mind, tho I may have 'liked' a color,,that was last on my list. 

I relied on those breeders to pick for me when the time came. Usually it came down to the wire,,the puppies being almost old enough to go to new homes,,when I was presented with "this one" and what did I think as well,,I relied on them and I haven't been steered wrong yet..

I have appreciated the fact that these breeders have a good "eye" in placing dogs, tho puppies are a crap shoot..

So I do consider myself lucky)


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I don't think Lee ended up deciding I would get Hexe until I got there to pick her up! 

Lee.. you made a good choice







thanks!


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

I could never have a breeder choose a puppy for me. I would like to know their input on the choices, but ultimately I have to make the decision.

I also tend to "just know" when the right dog is in front of me, and usually it happens when I am not really looking for a dog!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12I could never have a breeder choose a puppy for me.


I guess that is just because you haven't yet found a breeder whose knowledge, experience and judgement you would trust implicitly.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12I could never have a breeder choose a puppy for me.
> ...


Agreed. I could never make a proper judgment like a good breeder could not having the experience a good breeder would have. The breeder has lived with the pups all their short lives and has watched every interaction, and even if I spend a couple days with the pups I will still be missing the big picture. Plus, if the breeder's experienced in the dog world and breeding and has a good production record, I'll miss all of that experience getting applied to my choice. Sorry, but I think never having a breeder choose for me equals a big loss on my part (and also a good sign that the breeder might not know as much as s/he should).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Like Kristy said, choosing is difficult! I "pick" most of the pups for my owners - one time I let myself be swayed by a friends desire for a specific pup based on a photo. I **hate** giving people photos of pups because you CANNOT tell anything substantial from any photo!! I did not think the temperament on that pup really was right for my friend - and I was proved correct - I wanted to give her a different pup - not as dark colored but different temperamentally. She INSISTED on the dark one and said she could handle and welcomed the personality that I described. Ends up - a couple of years later, she admitted she hated the pup for the first year but persevered. She is titling the dog now and does love her, but the beginning was rocky. I knew that it would be, and never again will I let someone's desire for a color override my judgement. 

For Kristy's pup, as she is a co-own and will eventually (crossed fingers) produce a couple of Wolfstraum litters for us together, I was wavering between three pups who all showed tremendous potential for working. I also was leaning towards Havana - because she was black, but she was the biggest, and there was a possibility of her being at the top or over standard. There are alot of factors to consider and although my heart was with a different pup, when I got them tatooed, all were gone over for conformation annd critiqued by a very well known showline breeder, Hexe was given a big plus on her front and shoulder assembly, while Alice, my favorite was called "a showline pup!" and was very very correct in the hind and wither, she was not as correct in the shoulder....this was the deciding factor - that shoulder is hard to come by in working lines. All three pups are doing super, and I still miss my Alice, aka Gracie, aka Halcyon. But for the situation, Hexe was the best choice for Kristy. There was no difference in working potential in the pups I considered for Kristy - as others say - the pup is the raw material, it is up to the dedication and talent and resources of the handler. 

Lee


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12I could never have a breeder choose a puppy for me.
> ...


Couldn't agree more!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would never force someone to take a pup that they didn't want, but fortunately that hasn't happened yet. When we pick a pup for someone, we're able to give them very good reasons WHY that is the right pup for them. In a couple cases we have had people interested in a particular pup based on photos, etc... but a different pup was selected for them and once we explained why, they gladly took the pup we picked and things thus far have worked out well.

There have also been a few times where we had 2, and once 3, pups that we felt would be suitable for a person. In those cases, if the person was able to come here to interact with the pups and pick their pup out, we have let them do so. Giving them a choice between the few pups we felt would be suitable, telling them details about each, and ultimately letting them make the decision. Those have worked out well too. But I'd never just turn a customer loose with a litter, or a bunch of pictures, and let them pick out which one they want. No way. Even someone very experienced in puppy selection isn't necessarily going to be able to make the right choice after just one or two visits.

Example, in our E litter we only had one male. We had several people interested in males, but 2 people in particular that we were especially interested in selling too. Both were looking for very different traits for competition in very different venues... one competitive SchH, the other competitive agility. By the time the pups were 6 weeks old or so, it was clear this pup was better suited for the SchH person.

The potential owner was someone with 25 years SchH experience and who had titled many HOT dogs and this pup was everything he was looking for. He was a bit leary on letting us pick the pup for him after a couple situations of letting breeders pick that didn't work out, plus he's got twice the experience in SchH that we do! But I assured him this pup was the right one. Well, a few days before he was due to come pick up the pup, the pup came down with some sort of intestinal bug and was acting lethargic and just a bit off. Vet couldn't figure out what it was. I called him to tell him this and told him that it might be better to wait for the pup to get over whatever he had. He wouldn't be able to really evaluate the pup when he visited with the pup being sick, and I didn't want to send him home with a sick puppy. He insisted on coming up anyway. Of course, when he got here the pup wasn't exactly impressive in drive or anything else. We talked a bit, and he decided that he'd take him anyway as a trial run and see how the pup acted once he got over being sick. We discounted the pup a bit because he was sick and to cover any vet bills the new owner would incur and they were on their way.

The owner isn't the best at keeping in contact, and the most I've gotten in terms of updates since then is little snippets of things are going well, but no details. I saw this dog, now 2 years old, last fall. When I asked the owner what he though, his eyes lit up. "THIS is my next competition dog, no doubt about it!" was his response. His only complaint was that the dog is small (about 70lbs), and while the size doesn't bother him personally he's annoyed that helpers underestimate the dog's speed and power.









Had this owner gone by what he saw on that one visit when the pup was sick, he would never have taken that pup. But he trusted what we told him about the pup, and now he couldn't be happier with his dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with Lucia,

Since I trusted the breeders I have gone to, THEY were the ones living with these puppies for the first 8 weeks of their lives,,paying close attention to their development, who did this, who did that, which puppy was more laid back, more energetic..

I certainly never expect a breeder to be 'on the mark',,but knowing that "they knew" how those puppies developed having spent way more time with them than I ever had,,was the knowledge I was counting on and as I said,,I have not been steered wrong yet)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am sure there are also times when a breeder cannot 100% guarentee how pups can change in personality after they leave and go to homes.
sure some might show the drive and confidence at 7-8 weeks old, but i have seen pups like this turn and be the complete opposite at 3 months and up. not just fear periods but something that just changes and sticks.
so, even though i would trust a reputable breeder to pick for me, it is also a crap shoot with some pups.
i have always had better luck picking my own, even though i can understand a breeders concerns in doing that.

debbie


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, Lucia. If I doubted a breeder's ability to asses their own puppies, why the heck would I give them my money and get my 10-15 year best friend from them?!?!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

deb- I definately agree pups can be a crapshoot,,I consider myself DARN LUCKY! 

I have a male aussie who is the 'bain of my existence',,a rescue I got at 12 weeks old, he sounded like just what I was looking for, but in the end, really wasn't..He's still here, loves my husband and vice versa and is a happy boy, just not what I had in mind ))

Liesje> I agree with you also! unfortunately even trusting a breeder's ability to pick the perfect dog isn't foolproof..puppies change,, but again I consider myself darn lucky that I've gotten what I wished for)

I guess I would ask,,(not that this has happened to me and hopefully never will!) what would you girlz do, if say, you did your homework, paid a good chunk of change for this 'dream puppy' and it wasn't what you envisioned by the time the dog was a year old? 

I'll answer my own question) I honestly don't know since it's not really happened to me..


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I wince also when people show pictures of "their" new puppy at such a young age. Unless they willing to adapt to whatever the dog's needs are....and there is only one of whatever sex they are dead set on...but otherwise...nobody here knows which puppy is theirs until at least 6 weeks old.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

unfortunately I think alot of those people who show off Fido pics at such a young age,,are looking for a 'color' and 'gender' vs more important things like temperament and health..which is kinda sad to me..

I'd rather have a butt ugly healthy solid tempered dog than a beautiful one ))


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

well Diane you got lucky on that too, none of your dogs i've seen are butt ugly! especially the little princess!









Deb


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well hey you got some lookers yourself ))) 

And I had one "dumb as a rock" gsd, he was gorgeous to look at but nothing upstairs)) I gotta have dogs with brains to keep me busy)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thanks they take after their mom! LOL! couldn't resist that one! Brains, well, they might take after their dad.........ah hem!

anyway, its all a crap shoot no matter if ya pick one yourself or have someone else pick for ya. no way, no how can anyone really know how an 8 week old pup will turn out down the road..........

debbie


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebi am sure there are also times when a breeder cannot 100% guarentee how pups can change in personality after they leave and go to homes.


Of course not. There is no absolute guarantee with any living creature. Even though we usually talk about there being no guarantees as it relates to health, it applies to genetic temperament as well.

Yes, pups can and sometimes do change. It doesn't happen very often though. It's pretty rare for a pup showing good drive when young to fizzle out and not have any when older. Much more common (especially with males) for pups to be late bloomers in that regard, and what appeared to be a lower drive pup grows up to be a higher drive pup, with the drive kicking in at a much later age. Also pretty rare for a solid pup to develop nerve issues as it matures, or a nervy pup to suddenly become solid. The vast majority of the time, what you see at 7-8 weeks is a good indicator of what the pup will grow up to be. But no, it's not always completely accurate. Of course, the older the dog, the greater the environmental influences on the development of temperament and behavior.

But, if a pup is going to change, it will change regardless of who picked it out and matched it to the owner. So IMO it's still always a safer bet to have the person who has the most comprehensive knowledge of that individual puppy, and likely of it's close relatives and their developmental patters too, be the one making the selection.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OA
> I guess I would ask,,(not that this has happened to me and hopefully never will!) what would you girlz do, if say, you did your homework, paid a good chunk of change for this 'dream puppy' and it wasn't what you envisioned by the time the dog was a year old?
> 
> I'll answer my own question) I honestly don't know since it's not really happened to me..


That is a really good question, and I'm not sure if I would know the answer myself. I have thought about this when looking to get another dog for Schutzhund. Before getting Falkor, my dogs where just for being dogs - didn't have plans or expectations beyong them being companions - which is a pretty easy slot to fill. All they really needed to do was be there!

So I did think long and hard about what would happen if I got another dog specifically for Schutzhund, and with some weird quirk of fate, though promising at first, he did not pan out and would not have been suitable for the training - or if he got injured so that Schutzhund was definitely out, but I still have a dog for 10 years or so to care for, and no dog to pursue my training goals.

Well, I just had to accept that it could be a possibility. Though going to a good, experienced breeder would greatly reduce such a possibity, it still could happen, as nothing is guaranteed. So I just went into this being aware and accepting that there might be risk, ever so small, that my new Schutzhund dog was NOT a Schutzhund dog, and I was willing to live with that, and make the changes in my goals and interests that would be more appropriate for him. 

Though I wasn't really worried about it. And now with what he has been showing me at 8 months - I REALLY don't have to worry about it!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I completely agree with Lucia. I got my puppy, that my breeder picked out for me, as a pet first and foremost, as you never know if you will move to an area where you can't train in whatever sport you got the puppy for, you get hurt and can't train, the dog gets hurt and can't train, the puppy doesn't turn out the way you thought it would. If any of those happened I would still love my dog and have a wonderful companion dog for the rest of his life. Fortunately, my puppy, as many of you are getting sick of hearing, has turned out to be better than I ever expected and he's the most fun thing on four feet.

I figure that the puppy as he leaves the breeder's is the raw material and what you do with him after that will determine how he turns out. With how willing, confident, yet soft, my dog is, in other hands he could have been ruined by a harsh upbringing. By building trust and making life and training fun for my dog, he totally trusts me and will do anything I ask of him with all he's got.


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## jimmym1981 (Dec 5, 2008)

Elaine said it perfectly!!!


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## Nikkia (Jul 27, 2008)

I don't agree with people choosing the exact dog you will take home. We choose the pups for the owners by personality but even then the owner still gets a choice on which puppy they will be taking home.

you can usually tell by the way the puppies interact with one another. There is always an alfa, beta, and omega. The alfa puppy is the dominant puppy it's eats first in our litters we have observed that the other puppies always submit to them during play fights. The beta puppies eat second as far as we've observed in our litters they win and loose equally in play fighting. The omega's are the most submissive puppies in the litter. They eat last they occasionally play fight but usually watch from the side lines.

Unlike some breeders we keep our pups until they are 8 to 10 weeks old we feel that even after being weaned they still have a lot of things to learn from their mom. This is why we are usually pretty accurate on determining the personality of the pup.

When we choose the puppy for the owner we don't choose the exact puppy they get but let them choose from the puppies who we feel will best fit in their home. We let owners who have had experience with the breed but are still pretty new choose from the omega puppies omega's are usually people pleasers and are very easy to train. More experienced owners who have good knowledge of training can choose from our beta or omega puppies. They are a little bit more stubborn but are still fairly easy to train. Alfa puppies we only sell to owners who have a lot of experience with the breed and how to handle their behavioral issues properly and even then they can still choose one of the others.They are harder to train they are very stubborn and will try to take over. People who don't know how to handle and train these dogs can end up with a real tyrant.

We choose which puppies a new owner can choose from because we want our puppy and new owner to be happy together. Training problems are one of the main reasons dogs get put into shelters. We have designed our methods of placing puppies to make it easier on the dog and the new owner. We have delt with training all three personalities and know how hard it would be to put a first time owner up against an alfa puppy just because they thought it was cuter than the other pups.

I do admit we can't say this is how the puppy will be for the rest of their life because some do change. It all depends on the owner letting a beta get away with to much will cause him to decide to lead while leading an alfa can tone his dominating instinct over humans down.

We help our new owners make an educated decision on which puppy to get. We help them determine weather they are looking for a male or a female. A dog for show or a pet and narrow it down until they find a puppy they are happy with.

Hope I explained it well enough for you to understand how we place our puppies it is a hard subject for me to explain to some people if you have any more questions I would love to answer them.


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## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

If it's a good breeder, I trust them with every single decision, including which pup is best for me. Even if that means waiting for a different litter to be born.

Breeders know the most about the pups, considering they've been with them since birth.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Nikkia,

But aren't you talking about Papillions?


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDNikkia,
> 
> But aren't you talking about Papillions?


That's what I thought.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I picked my pup, however I rec'd considerable guidance from the breeder in making my selection. I passed on 2 stunning long stock coats (which I love) b/c she was certain 1 was wrong for me (a bit shy) & as pretty as the other was, he didn't make my blood sing, he just lacked the bit of oomph & pushiness I like in my pets. There was another pup from Djibouti's litter that caught my eye, but she felt he was a poor fit b/c he's noise reactive. (No real sacrifice there. I liked Djibouti better)

I'm fairly flexible in many areas. I can handle a range of activity levels, personalities & temperaments. What's crucial to me, is an unflappable, solid, steady, utterly reliable dog. He can be hard headed or sweet, willing or ornery, easy as pie or somewhat difficult, aloof or outgoing. Each has it's charms, but I don't want a skittish, high strung, fearful, insecure dog.

IF Djibouti's breeder chose the pups for her buyers rather than the buyers making a 'directed selection' that would have been all right, too. She clearly knew what I wanted & also what I wanted to avoid. Taking her advice worked out beautifully. My little Djibouti is perfectly suited to me, a dream come true.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDNikkia,
> 
> But aren't you talking about Papillions?


I believe so.

Nikkia,
There is a HUGE difference between a lap dog breed and a working breed. I can't think of any common personality traits found in Papillions that a halfway decent dog owner couldn't handle. 

But there are plenty of people who may want a GSD, or think they are ready for a GSD, who can NOT handle a GSD. Particularly one of working temperament. And those people aren't going to have a clue how to evaluate young pups and pick out a suitable one. Placing a GSD in an inappropriate home is disasterous. There is a LOT more that can go wrong than with a Papillion.

I think once you start getting involved in SchH or other venues with Nikkia, this will become quite clear to you.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

The breeder made suggestions on which pup I should select, he suggested a male that ran right up to me and bite my shoe and started humping it. at the time I didn't have a lot of experience(still don't) with working line GSDs but I felt that I really didn't want to deal with a ranky hard headed prey monster when I was new to the sport. I picked a female that like to play and chase, I got to say I'm really happy with her.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

MaxGunnar, it sounds like you made a wise choice. I'd think most breeders would prefer to see people with an easier dog if they're new to Schutzhund & lack previous experience with sport/working dogs.

I've heard that many more people *think* they want to do schutzhund than follow through & become serious participants. It can be a bad situation if these people get a crazy to work dog & then wimp out on it. Too often the poor dog will be blamed if it's bored, restless, destructive, barks, digs, escapes while seeking an outlet for its under utilized mental/physical energy. 

An acquaintance is currently trying to put together a 1st class sled dog team! He's never owned a Husky, Malamute or even a medium large dog, but he wants a sled dog team! He's extremely lazy as well. (And lives in town!) But he wants a sled dog team! His wife & sister have tried reason, ridicule & threats to dissuade him to no avail. He insists it's his 'life long dream' & none of us can understand or appreciate that. People all too often fail even with their strictly pet Huskys & Malamutes but this numpty thinks he's gonna put together a team of the wily tricksters. I only hope he runs into breeders ethical enough that they refuse to sell to him (& make it clear his 'dream' is actually a fantasy).


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Chris, pet lines with solid temperaments, such as my Djibouti, are undoubtedly the easiest GSDs to live with, & even they can be too much for people who have only known typical Golden or Lab type dogs. It's kind of like the difference b/w a (true)JRT & a Papillon. Both are small, attractive, personable & will make wonderful pets with the right people. One is a dog. The other is an Habanero crossed with TNT. My friend affectionately calls his Jack Russell Terrierists.


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## Nikkia (Jul 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDNikkia,
> 
> But aren't you talking about Papillions?


I am talking about both, this is how Nikkia's breeder also places her dogs. When I bought Nikkia I was given the choice between the beta and omega female puppies. She showed me their scores on their structure tests (hastings evaluation) and showed me which puppies were show prospect and which puppies where pet prospect. I wanted one with a good sound structure that I could show and compete with. We narrowed down the two best pups for what I wanted to do Nikkia and her sister. I spent 15 minutes interacting with each pup without it's litter mates and found that Nikkia was very outgoing and was more focused than her sister. I am very happy her breeder helped me choose her, even though she is a pain at times she has been so trainable and fits in so well with our family. We are good friends with her breeder as her breeder breeds and shows german shepherds and papillons she has been doing this for almost 15 years. In the end they still choose the puppy but we inform them on which puppies lean more towards what they are looking for so they can make an educated decision on which dog they want and they are not blindly choosing a puppy. Although the new owner is limited to the group (alfa, beta, omega) they can still choose any puppy from that group and down (so if they were limited to beta, they could choose from the beta and omega puppies the alfa is the only one they couldn't have). 

Nikkia's breeder has been using this method for placing both breeds for almost 6 years now and in that six years has not found any of her dogs in a shelter and has only been given back one.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

But there is MUCH more to placing pups than who ends up where in the litter heirarchy etc...

What about prey drive, hunt drive, desire to retrieve, fighting behavior, sharpness, grip, possessiveness, willingness to counter, scenting ability, concentration, focus, distractability, resiliency, hardness, nerves when exposed to a WIDE variety of different things including gunshots, slick floors, dark enclosed places, heights.... the list goes on.

Those are all things that no buyer can assess in 15 minutes, or an hour, or a couple days. Especially when we consider the fact that that short visits only provide a snapshot in time (the same with formal puppy tests actually). If a puppy is overly tired, not feeling well or any number of other things it may appear to be much less dog that it really is during such short visits. This is why good evaluation of puppies comes from long term observation. Something the breeder is best positioned to do.

Plus, what one breeder considers an "alpha" based on their experience with a bloodline may be more omega-ish if compared to a puppy from another bloodline. In my experience, the most laid back, soft, omega puppy in many working litters is still FAR more intense a dog than the "alpha" in many show or pet bloodline litters.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

how I plan to get my next puppy is pretty much the way I selected Erika. I got to personaly see the bitch (Roxie) and the dog (Kane) work in obed, agility , tracking, prey and defense. Kane went on to get some Sch titles. Roxie is now in my kennel(under my desk keeping my feet warm). I wish I could just look at titles and read pedigrees but I really started this game too late in life.


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