# Professional help results



## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I really have debated posting this for 2 reasons. 1) not sure the replies I'd get and really wanted to give the behaviorist plan a full go and 2) not sure I really believed the behaviorist was right in the first place. I think/ thought my dog was fearful. He thinks he's dominant protective. 

I've posted quite a few times about my dog who was showing some fearful signs, backing away from head pats and barked and lunged at a few men, circled a lady with a hat on including a lady dressed up as the Statue of Liberty earlier this year. Chased a skateboarder down the street, after he knocked my daughter over. She's 20 but really petite. Looks like 16. 

Last month however was the last straw, when my daughter was walking him with me and my son behind her. An approx 5 year approached us running towards our dog. I looked for the mother but she was on her phone and it happened so fast. We don't have young kids around and my daughter got nervous and told him to stop, which he didnt, and my dog started barking and pulling towards the young boy. Luckily my son had yanked back on the leash and the little boy stopped. 
I had been doing counter conditioning with him for months but I really needed help after this. 
Called in a behaviorist who works with the court and dogs that have bitten someone. He does service dog, therapy and schutzhund training and has much experience with fearful dogs and biters.

He came to our house, met Dexter who does what he usually does when I let someone in the house smells them and gets his ball. He jokingly asked me where my fearful dog was. ( by this time Dexters on the couch next to the behaviorist with his head and ball in his lap.) I asked him to come out with us in public because my dog is fearful in public and is afraid of being petted. He spent 2 hours with us and went to a shopping center where his partner met us. 
Some things he observed and talked to us about. Some of them embarrassing and some even worse than fearful. 

Behaviorist results: Dexter is competitive dominant and protective of my daughter. He would bite if given the chance. 

1) Dexter is not fearful, he's dominant with strangers. he does not like being patted on head. Moves head away but moves back in to person patting him. Not a fearful action. He said a lot of german shepherds do not like being petted on the head.

2) he's competitive dominant with people who challenge him. Behaviorist's partner approached staring and Dexter stared back, tail high slight wag, on front paws. Not looking away. Surprisingly Dexter didnt growl or bark at him, but I think its because he didn't get too close. Other people were passing by us while this was happening and Dexter ignored them even though they were close, but kept staring at the partner. 

Protective of my daughter, who he sees as weak. He's anxious in public when she's walking him. He's constantly looking around and watching her behavior. He's too young and immature enough to decide who's bad and who's not. Not his job to decide. Daughter has to become leader.

We have a written plan, basically states:

1) NILF. No more couch, even dog couch. No bedroom at all. No more chicken, treats etc. Dexter is spoiled, especially by my daughter who allows him on her bed, couch etc. too many treats, canned dog food. Dexter receiving too many mixed signals. 
2) said kirkland brand food was good. Not too much protein. He recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues. 
3) he usually recommends blood tests but Dexters behavior is not bad, so he's not recommending it.

4)Daughter has to play ball and tug according to new rules. When she plays with him he never takes the ball to her and drops it and waits for her to pick it up ( like he does with me. I'm a lazy butt so I make him bring it) instead he drops it, waits for her to reach down to get it, he swoops in and gets it before her and she chases him around the yard and house. 

5) no more dog park. He said lots of german shepherds are competitive dominant with other dominant dogs and that's when fights begin. 

I have to say, I really didn't believe him and told him so, but what did I have to lose. 

I'm posting this now because it's been a month this past Sunday and we've seen such a big change. ( it did take 4 days for him to stop climbing on the couch though lol) . Last week my daughter had him on leash at a family park event and several family kids ran up to him. We have been working on not getting nervous. He wagged his tail and played ball with them. He's not 100 percent better because I still see him looking around when she's walking him, and he still stares but....he hasn't barked at anyone so that's a huge improvement.

We are continuing to do some training out in public with the behaviorist so my daughter can feel more comfortable. 

Anyway just wanted to share my experience and hope it helps some others to decide whether a behaviorist might be a good idea, if you are having some behavioral issues. Please keep your fingers crossed for Dexter and I too.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

It's good to hear when positive changes come about. Changing habits is always hard...hope your trend continues...


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> It's good to hear when positive changes come about. Changing habits is always hard...hope your trend continues...


Thank you, yes habits are hard to change. I'd find myself settling in for the night to watch the news and Dexter would just casually jump on the couch and put his head in my lap and it would take me a few seconds to realize, he's on the couch:blush: and I'd tell him to get down and go to his bed. I had to be firm for his own good.


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## Ashley_M (Feb 19, 2003)

Thank you for you sharing - very interesting read! I don't doubt his knowledge but I am especially interested in why he recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Ashley_M said:


> Thank you for you sharing - very interesting read! I don't doubt his knowledge but I am especially interested in why he recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.


I can ask him for you.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Ashley_M said:


> Thank you for you sharing - very interesting read! I don't doubt his knowledge but I am especially interested in why he recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.


Yeah, I'd like to understand this also. 
Thank you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Juliem24 said:


> Yeah, I'd like to understand this also.
> Thank you.


I am interested in this because I have noticed after Midnite eats he gets dominant with my male golden. It's like clockwork every day. He eats, then he starts with the other dog(he pokes him and growls and attempts to hump), I stop it and it's over, repeat when he eats again. He is persistent and I think it has something to do with him eating or the food. I have even brought this up in conversation with my friend because I can't figure it out. It last about 30 seconds and then it's over. I don't think mine is dominant aggressive or protective and he doesn't have any behaviorist issues, it's just odd. Maybe it's the protein in the food , which I thought was pretty low but maybe not?


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I will ask why and how much is too much. If anyone has any answers before i talk to him tomorrow. Would like to hear their opinion. I never asked since he said the brand he was on was ok in protein.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> I
> 1) Dexter is not fearful, he's dominant with strangers. he does not like being patted on head. Moves head away but moves back in to person patting him. Not a fearful action. He said a lot of german shepherds do not like being petted on the head.
> 
> 2) he's competitive dominant with people who challenge him. Behaviorist's partner approached staring and Dexter stared back, tail high slight wag, on front paws. Not looking away. Surprisingly Dexter didnt growl or bark at him, but I think its because he didn't get too close. Other people were passing by us while this was happening and Dexter ignored them even though they were close, but kept staring at the partner.
> ...


From this description he does not sound fearful. But without seeing the dog there is no way to assess that over the internet



Msmaria said:


> 1) NILF. No more couch, even dog couch. No bedroom at all. No more chicken, treats etc. Dexter is spoiled, especially by my daughter who allows him on her bed, couch etc. too many treats, canned dog food. Dexter receiving too many mixed signals.
> 2) said kirkland brand food was good. Not too much protein. He recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.
> 3) he usually recommends blood tests but Dexters behavior is not bad, so he's not recommending it.


To me some of this is over the top. Ok restricting bed/couch privleges, if you believe that makes a dog "dominant" fine. But no dog bed? Where is he supposed to lay?

I personally don't believe there is a such thing as too many treats. Perhaps not giving them for no reason anymore (always ask for at least a sit)...but in my eyes my dogs can have unlimited treats (because they are given on my terms of course)

And I've never heard of this low protein thing. I know dogs with much more intense issues than your dog that are fed raw. Their trainer has not requested a food change. I personally don't like Kirkland but only because its made by Diamond.



Msmaria said:


> I
> 
> 4)Daughter has to play ball and tug according to new rules. When she plays with him he never takes the ball to her and drops it and waits for her to pick it up ( like he does with me. I'm a lazy butt so I make him bring it) instead he drops it, waits for her to reach down to get it, he swoops in and gets it before her and she chases him around the yard and house.


What is she supposed to do now?

I guess I kind of get this. Her chasing makes him "dominant" (I personally am not one to buy into this whole dominance theory)...Though in my eyes this is a dog just having fun, he found out that keep away is way better than fetch! 

If she doesn't want to chase him though, I'd walk inside. Pretend he doesn't exist. Watch how fast he drops that ball and wants to go where she's going! Or better yet, perhaps he'll bring it with him to the door.



Msmaria said:


> I
> 5) no more dog park. He said lots of german shepherds are competitive dominant with other dominant dogs and that's when fights begin.


I have to agree with this one. I hate dog parks. The only time I take my dogs is in the super early morning when no one is there. If there is someone there, we go for a walk instead.

Finally after all my responses, if it's working---KEEP AT IT!


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> 2) said kirkland brand food was good. Not too much protein. He recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.


A past behaviorist I worked with had suggested this to me before. I don't know what your behaviorist's reasoning is for it, but my behaviorist's reasoning was based on an Eastern theory that high levels of protein - especially red protein or "warm protein" lent itself to higher energy which could feed more intensity in any sort of aggressive behavior. Less protein, less energy, so less energy feeding into the aggressive behaviors we were working on fixing. 

It makes some sense when I think about it. I have definitely seen the energy spike in dogs that go from a basic grain dog food to a high protein food. I can see how that extra energy could easily lend itself to any existing nervous, guarding, or aggressive behavior.

And a couple friends with collies refuse to feed high protein because their already high energy dogs end up bouncing off the walls. So they feed grain based (think chicken and brown rice) because it seems to temper the energy.

I'm also interested. I'd like to know if both our behaviorists had similar reasons.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Agree with the lower protein.

Woolf is FA - HA and DA. When we first began with his behaviorist, she had us change to a lower protein food, first target was 20% protein. We gradually upped the protein level as his coping skills and recovery improved. We are now at 24-26%, which I think is our final target at least for now. Kibble at this level is plant-based, so we do add meats to his food. Interestingly enough, adding the whole protein of meat does not affect him as higher protein level in kibble. At this point I would prefer to go raw, but the other half has some old ideas about raw and won't budge - <sigh> compromises.

The theory behind it is higher protein will lead to quicker and stronger reactions. It seems to prove true. We would definitely see this as we changed foods. We would have to take 1 or 2 steps back in training during a food change.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I will see behavior is Sunday, as I'm having him work with my daughter and dex in public places so she can get experience using the prong, getting his attention so she can feel more confident. However I did text him and he replied "Too high protein diet can contribute to higher energy resulting in aggressive behavior. 20 to 30% is fine. Some high energy foods have 40 to 60%. Some freeze dried treats can be 90%. We will go over this more on Sunday" So it seems about the energy, like a comment below.

also I forgot to note we are also doing a t touch type massage before and after walks. He showed us how to massage the chest head, ears and muzzle to help dex relax. also for the first 2 weeks we had to totally remove him from any triggers. So we took him to remote areas to hike, so he wouldnt see any kids and not too many people. We also started a herding class to keep him busy since dog parks are out.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

The whole food thing has me a little nervous. Our male 18 month old GSD is starting his teenage years and boundary pushing. We were feeding Royal Canine until I found out had bad it really is. I was going out this weekend to purchase him Acana but now I'm really worried the high protein level will contribute to some of his bad behaviour. Should I go with lower protein?

We are also using the NILIF and find it to help a lot. We didn't let him on the couch for 3 weeks and are just starting to let him up when we say he can. We've gone a little behind in our training the last week but I'm getting back to it.

I'm really glad that what your doing is working and hope it continues that way!


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> .
> 
> also I forgot to note we are also doing a t touch type massage before and after walks. He showed us how to massage the chest head, ears and muzzle to help dex relax. also for the first 2 weeks we had to totally remove him from any triggers. So we took him to remote areas to hike, so he wouldnt see any kids and not too many people. We also started a herding class to keep him busy since dog parks are out.



Now this is awesome! Kudos to you for following it too. Detox and relaxation are super important


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## Portia (Aug 27, 2014)

HI Ms Maria,

I just read your post and it made me realize a few things. Thanks very much for posting this!


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Does anyone have movies on how to massage your German Shepherd Dog for relaxation or links to good ones? 

Don't want to get a bad link and make a mistake lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When Onyx was going thru her reactive stage we did massage before we started every class. The book _Control Unleashed_ has a protocol to follow for relaxation. . These include bodywork (TTouch and massage) and employing Dr. Karen Overall’s conditioned relaxation protocol.
CONTROL UNLEASHED - CREATING A FOCUSED AND CONFIDENT DOG - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Maria it sounds as though your consistency with the plan is paying off. It gave me some stuff to think about. After a month what do you think re the protein issue ? While I may not call it dominance any dog or ,child or teen who sees themself as in charge needs some family restructuring. Worked with families on this issue and its tough work for the parent but it does pay off. I've heard some good things re NLIF. Looking forward to hearing about Dexter's progress.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Msmaria,

Many thanks for sharing the experiences you are going through with your dog...I find it rather interesting as well as quite considerate of you to explore possible remedies via a behaviorist. Please continue to update us on your progress.

I found the low protein diet suggestion fascinating and did a bit of reading after your post planted the seed....

This study was interesting regarding territorially aggressive dogs.

Summary of Tufts University study on the effect of dietary protein on dog behavior

Other studies and articles suggest that a surplus of amino acids due to a high protein diet can block the amino acid tryptophan which is integral in the production of serotonin ...which supposedly has a calming effect...and could alter some behavior in dogs exhibiting dominance aggression.

SuperG


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks for the link to the book onyx'girl. It looks really good.

SuperG thanks for finding that article. It has out my mind at ease. I'll definitely keep an eye on him when I change his diet though. Hope is to have him on raw by the start of the new year.

Sorry for any thread stealing Msmaria.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When Midnite was reactive I found myself massaging behind his ears in class and really enjoyed it. He has never reacted there, I wonder if the massaging helped and I didn't even know it?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I wonder if the massaging helped and I didn't even know it?


No doubt it helped.

SuperG


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Dog Massage : Dog Massage for Stress & Anxiety: Dog Massage : Dog Massage for Stress & Anxiety - YouTube
sorry i haven't responded earlier. Been busy at work all day. I tried finding a video close to h ow he showed me and had the hardest time finding one. However i found one close in regards to the neck and ears, ( dog is sitting position) however he also showed me to continue down into the muzzle mouth area ( which this video doesnt show) using small clockwise circular motions. 

I started massaging dexter legs last year because he has hip dysplasia so all i have to say is massage and he comes running. He really loves having his neck, chest etc massaged and one time he almost fell asleep while i was doing it. Poor thing almost fell over.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Msmaria,
> 
> Many thanks for sharing the experiences you are going through with your dog...I find it rather interesting as well as quite considerate of you to explore possible remedies via a behaviorist. Please continue to update us on your progress.
> 
> ...


I'm just doing what you guys do every day..sharing info. Without this site I seriously believe this wouldn't be my dogs only problem.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Della (5 month old) is very excited in the am, when I let her out of her kennel. I don't let her outside until she has settled and will hold a sit/stay. I have found the quickest way to settle her is to rub her neck,then back all the way to her tail. She calms very quickly.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> From this description he does not sound fearful. But without seeing the dog there is no way to assess that over the internet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thankyou. I thought over the top too, but I was desperate. I hope after awhile he gets to come back in to the rooms. He has a dog bed in the living room and that's where he goes when we're in the livingroom. It's pretty routine now, he doesn't even look to go on the couch.
I really had a hard time believing he's dominant as he's never shown any dominance to anyone in the family or my old one eyed shih tzu. I can stare at him or anyone in my house and he blinks and looks away. It's just some strangers usually strong men types that he will stare at. I had already accepted my dog was fearful, I'm OK with that. Whether he is or not , I just don't want him barking especially at kids. He's probably barked at maybe 10 people ever in his 19 months but I didn't want it getting worse, which it has been going that direction ever since my shih tau lost her eye.
In regards to diamond and kirkland, I understand your concern. I think about it too. I try to buy bags ahead of using them just in case and registered with dog food advisor because I can't count on costco to notify me. The other day they sent me a letter regarding sour cream I had bought 10 days earlier and had already consumed.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'll tell you what I massage my dogs all the time like that. I never thought anything of it besides its petting them. I massaged Midnites ears just like that in class while we were just waiting and he was in a sit. If that is what relaxed him then I'll tell you it's a pretty powerful training tool. I'm glad that I now know that it can be used that way.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Keeping a dog below threshold limits...is the name of the game many times..

SuperG


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I'll tell you what I massage my dogs all the time like that. I never thought anything of it besides its petting them. I massaged Midnites ears just like that in class while we were just waiting and he was in a sit. If that is what relaxed him then I'll tell you it's a pretty powerful training tool. I'm glad that I now know that it can be used that way.


Annnd..it relaxes you too. Right? Sometimes I do it when we're just hanging out. It's very soothing especially when you see how much they enjoy it. I've been massaging all my dogs this past few weeks and so has my daughter. The only thing is I have to tell them sit before I do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are seeing an improvement, keep up whatever you are doing. Dexter is still a youngster, some things you will keep doing because they become a habit, and some things might slack off after a time, and it may be ok, because as he matures, he may not need the present regime. 

But progress is good. 

Protein, well it sounds a bit like Oliver Twist -- something about meat turning the boy vicious. I am surprised trainers don't want to decrease the amount of molasses or sugar in the dog food and treats when dogs have behavior issues.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

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here is pic of Dex from this weekend at his doggie friends (great dane in pic) birthday pool party. Lots of men around and people in hats, no issues at all. He was relaxed and mingled the whole time. We also went to a movie in the Park this past sat with roughly 500 people and no issues. Not even a stare. Sunday meeting with behaviorist/ trainer got loose leash walking and heeling lessons with daughter. No more running in front of her. He walked by kids, men etc no problems. 
On lighter side behaviorist tried testing Dex with a hat on and large stick walking directly up to him, but dex wasn't fooled he knew who it was and loved it, tried playing with him. Daughter feeling much more relaxed when being out with him now, whewww it feels good.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Msmaria said:


> We have a written plan, basically states:
> 
> 1) NILF. No more couch, even dog couch. No bedroom at all. No more chicken, treats etc. Dexter is spoiled, especially by my daughter who allows him on her bed, couch etc. too many treats, canned dog food. Dexter receiving too many mixed signals.
> 2) said kirkland brand food was good. Not too much protein. He recommends lower protein food for dogs with behavioral issues.
> ...


Excellent, sounds like you are doing a great job.

Just wanted to comment on the plan, I've seen it so many times where a GSD becomes difficult and/or fear aggressive and/or so called behaviour issues simply due to the owner. GSDs in particular need an owner they can trust to handle situations otherwise they feel they have to take control and this makes most GSDs feel stressed and nervous. Also, agree with the low protein diet, it does seem to help and the dog park - oh yes the dog park, in my experience GSDs do fine in dog parks up to about the 1yo, then a lot actually become stressed from super friendly dogs in their personal space - GSDs are much happier with just us.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wanna go to a doggie pool party


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Dex does pretty good at the dog park and we've never had problems. I'm pretty sad to leave but I do agree he was doing things I can see would cause problems down the line. So I'm not taking him anymore.

This is one of the things he does with my daughter. This is at a private dog park and all of these dogs he grew up with so he's pretty good but you can see how he's watchful of if my daughter will get jumped on by the Great Dane, who is dexters best friend. This is because the Great Dane has accidentally knocked her down before. 
P.s. Turn down volume cause its windy lol

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b495/msmarias21/20140901_144441_zps22976620.mp4


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Here's another video, sorry its so bad..lol
What you missed is my daughter calling fluffy my 6 year demon maltipoo over because he's barking at another dog, then Dexter goes over to get him and brings him back to my daughter. My daughter throws the ball for Dex who chases it and is in the process of trying to make it squeak but...then sees my maltipoo being followed by the other dog and goes over until the other dog leaves. Dexter then starts to poop so I cut the video short..lol. But you guys get the point. Like I said he knows all of these dogs very well but were no longer going to public dog parks and when I did, I never took fluffy with us because he likes to start trouble and Dexter gets involved.

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b495/msmarias21/Dexterfluffy_zps435366c7.mp4


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I wanna go to a doggie pool party



We have another birthday party to attend later this month. Sheesh is everyone having dogs and babies in September or what? But really its a lot of fun


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

llombardo said:


> When Midnite was reactive I found myself massaging behind his ears in class and really enjoyed it. He has never reacted there, I wonder if the massaging helped and I didn't even know it?


A class i took for reactive dogs, the guy said massaging the ears, going up and down in between your fingers, with pressure but obviously not hurting them was what we had to do in class. Should help relax them and calm them. In fact with some of the dogs in the class they went from sitting to laying down once we started doing this, including Zelda at the time- which could have been coincidence that most started to lay down. But i still use it, i think it helps relax her when she is under or at the most on the tip of her threshold, i think anything over her threshold where she is way to upwards in her threshold, to come down from it until i take her away from whatever is causing it to be too high of threshold.  Thats just my take on it!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

From what I remember him saying. There are pressure points in the ear, I am assuming something similar to our pressure points in the face that can be massaged during a facial to help ease tension and headaches.

I don't know why my videos are showing I deleted,when I didn't delete them??? but yet when I press the play button , they play?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I just wanted to comment on the part of play. My dog is also dominant and challenging but not in the normal ways. It was coming out mostly as possessiveness although he does not like head petting either. Working with my trainer, I too totally restructured play. I went to training to completely re-learn how to play with this dog and the nuances to how we play are really quite amazing. I have heard that this is a foundation piece of Ivan Balabanov's work. If you think about it, play is where much of our relationship is created and sustained with our dogs. It is just if you have this kind of dog (dominant), it is much more nuanced than you think. I have had four other dogs in my life and never had to think about play, just did it and never had an issue. But I have never had a dominant dog at this level. What I didn't realize is how I was letting him drive the game, exercise possessiveness, not trust me, etc. Restructuring the game and play, restructured our relationship. Super cool in my experience and so glad that you had the same.

I think the rules that some people balk at (couches and bedroom rules)are not just about dominance but about clarity. My dog needs crystal clear rules and commands or he will totally do what he wants. Again, my other dogs it was not as necessary, but without clarity, Tygo thinks there are no rules. No rules and he takes over in anyway he chooses. I think that is what this trainer was doing. Make the rules crystal clear. 

Anyway, so glad it is working and keep it up. It only gets more fun and pleasurable from here.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

DutchKarin said:


> I just wanted to comment on the part of play. My dog is also dominant and challenging but not in the normal ways. It was coming out mostly as possessiveness although he does not like head petting either. Working with my trainer, I too totally restructured play. I went training to completely re-learn how to play with this dog and the nuances to how we play are really quite amazing. I have heard that this is a foundation piece of Ivan Balabanov's work. If you think about it, play is where much of our relationship is created and sustained with our dogs. It is just if you have this kind of dog (dominant), it is much more nuanced than you think. I have had four other dogs in my life and never had to think about play, just did it and never had an issue. But I have never had a dominant dog at this level. What I didn't realize is how I was letting him drive the game, exercise possessiveness, not trust me, etc. Restructuring the game and play, restructured our relationship. Super cool in my experience and so glad that you had the same.
> 
> I think the rules that some people balk at (couches and bedroom rules)are not just about dominance but about clarity. My dog needs crystal clear rules and commands or he will totally do what he wants. Again, my other dogs it was not as necessary, but without clarity, Tygo thinks there are no rules. No rules and he takes over in anyway he chooses. I think that is what this trainer was doing. Make the rules crystal clear.
> 
> Anyway, so glad it is working and keep it up. It only gets more fun and pleasurable from here.


Thank you for posting this, because I think that is the same with us. I thought dominance was a dog that challenged you for authority. Which is why I didn't actually believe the behaviorist. My dog does not challenge me in any way and is quite obedient and even submissive. I think this is what I had the hardest time with.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

so my roxy's behavior doppelganger is making huge progress~~~ now can you send your behavior person over to my house 

I haven't read all of the comments yet but had to bounce in on this one and look for suggestions.....I was at our local mom and pop pet store the other day and the owner was talking about this lower protein thing.....and now I see it here cuz I had NO CLUE what he was talking about and neither did he ...he only said after we were talking about Roxy that he has heard of people with high energy dogs going low protein....however in his whole store we were still coming up with the lowest protein right at around 28....

..........so HELP ...........I need a list of some at least 4 star foods with a low protein level that I MIGHT be able to find around here. Right now she's bouncing between blue buffalo rice and lamb / and / taste of the wild bison ( just cuz she's a picky little eater)


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

ps I just don't get this whole dog park thing -- I am going to let everybody who is against it ...be there and let those for it..be there. I think it's going to be on a case by case determination.

Roxy LOVES the dog park and we have NEVER had an issue ( yes ..anything can happen and you can bet your life I am following her a round and watching for dogs that look like trouble makers coming in) 

I had taken a break from there for a few months but me and my friends loaded our dogs up and headed up there the other night. I am guessing right around 20 dogs and a couple other german shepherds in there. NO ISSUES ........NONE! Roxy let's the owners pet her....plays with the other dogs....etc 
When we walk she doesn't want ANYBODY touching her for any reason. Doesn't want anybody looking like they might even be thinking of touching her. to the point that I have one of those leash sleeves that says in bright yellow coloring and black lettering DO NOT PET -- other side says IN TRAINING. 
Last night walking out here...( I have the WORST TIMING) I am convinced of it....I head out with her get about 1/2 a block and realize the other reactive dog that lives next door to us....here they come > OMG -- WHY??? so it starts before we are even close ...Roxy is pulling and barking etc. So I get up close ( it's the mom who has the dog this time) ....we try to let them meet and both of them hackles are up ..and teeth are showing. Back them up and keep walking. This dog can come over in our pen and play with Roxy .....but when they meet each other on a leash ...all **** breaks loose. 
I do NOT get it.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> so my roxy's behavior doppelganger is making huge progress~~~ now can you send your behavior person over to my house
> 
> I haven't read all of the comments yet but had to bounce in on this one and look for suggestions.....I was at our local mom and pop pet store the other day and the owner was talking about this lower protein thing.....and now I see it here cuz I at he has heard of people with high energy dogs going low protein....however in his whole store we were still coming up with the lowest protein right at around 28....
> 
> ..........so HELP ...........I need a list of some at least 4 star foods with a low protein level that I MIGHT be able to find around here. Right now she's bouncing between blue buffalo rice and lamb / and / taste of the wild bison ( just cuz she's a picky little eater)


Kirkland costco brand is 4 stars, low protein. But l know they've had a few recalls years ago ( diamond) so it's a hit or miss with this board. I'm sure there has to be others.
I'm with u on the dog park, love it. I really think that's why dex is so good with all size dogs.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

This is an interesting read. Thanks for sharing! I'm glad Dexter is doing better.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> To me some of this is over the top. Ok restricting bed/couch privleges, if you believe that makes a dog "dominant" fine. But no dog bed? Where is he supposed to lay?


if this hasnt been addressed yet i would guess that it means the dog feels he owns too many things and dogs should never feel they own things in the house
a dog that does not have issues can have a dog bed but a dog with issues should not feel he has privliges like couch and bed and its own bed

it just helps the dog remember hes the lowest member of the pack
leaders control the resources and a comfy place to lay is a resource

btw dogs can sleep just fine on floors or lawns or in crates with no beds or blankies


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

While I think food can be significant for an animal's health, I do not believe that the protein is the problem.

Based on what I know about dog nutrition and how a dog processes food, I'd expect carbs to be much more of an issue- giving that sugar rush and insulin boost of highs/lows. A dog on high protein, high fat, low carb diet would have a more naturally digested, steady source of energy than one on a low protein, high carb diet. If the food is low protein, it is probably high carb. 

I've heard of more than one person who had a hyper dog mellow the dog out by feeding fewer or no carbs and more fat/protein. As far as meat/protein and aggression being linked, I don't buy it. Some of the most non-aggressive dogs I know ("eurohound" sled dogs) eat very high protein/fat diets. Aggression is mostly based in genetics, with some nurture/training, not diet-based. 

That said, if it works for you, go for it. I have no issue with the placebo effect- if the changes in the dog are just based on owner expectations- the end result is still positive and no harm done. It sounds like you found a trainer who is making great progress for you and your dog. I'd never knock that!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Sorry i didn't address. 

Yes, the dog can have a dog bed. It's just not in my room anymore, it's in the livingroom. At least for now, after a solid couple of weeks we can move it back into the bedroom. Dex usually just sleeps on the floor outside my room as its been hot lately and the wood floor is cooler. He doesn't recommend dogs on the couch ever he said. But insists if I let him on he has to be invited! Since dex doesn't guard the couch from anyone I think it's ok, but then again what do I know. 

Dex is continuing to improve. It will be a month and 1 week since he's barked at anyone. hes less anxious and more playful on walks. I would video it but u saw how my last 2 videos turned out lol


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Very interesting and motivational  Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to continued updates


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Just wanted to update. Will try to update for awhile so everyone can see how things are going. I will be honest as possible, even if there are setbacks. As I'm hoping others will be helped by our progress or setback. 

Another good week. No barking at all. He's even sitting better for petting. I need to get some pics of strange men around him, but I'm still too busy watching him to pull out my phone to take a picture. Plus that would be a little weird. Asking a stranger " excuse me, do you mind me taking a picture to prove to some people that he's allowing you to pet him and not ttrying to tear your face off" 
I have posted this pic in another thread, but I think it shows how many people he was around this sat afternoon and he didnt have any issues. He was only interested in all the balls and squeaky toys that were available to play with. He even allowed a strange male vender at the event to fit him with a doggie backpack. He only smelled him in the face as he wrapped it around him to secure it.
He's still not the type to seek out people and doesn't lick anyone, but at least he's not barking, staring and more relaxed around men.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This makes me nervous. It seems like two weeks ago you were asking about whether or not you were doing the right thing, and talking about the dog going after a guy, and reacting to a small child within the previous month. 

Now you show a picture of the dog in a regular zoo. I am sorry, but, there are people, kids, water, dogs, chuck its, toys, commotion. It looks like flooding, and while that can work in some situation, it can also go way wrong. 

If it does, than the dog will most likely be euthanized -- no longer in your hands, and charges may be filed against you as well. I guess I probably wouldn't risk it until I had a lot more time into the new training/behavior regime.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

selzer said:


> This makes me nervous. It seems like two weeks ago you were asking about whether or not you were doing the right thing, and talking about the dog going after a guy, and reacting to a small child within the previous month.
> 
> Now you show a picture of the dog in a regular zoo. I am sorry, but, there are people, kids, water, dogs, chuck its, toys, commotion. It looks like flooding, and while that can work in some situation, it can also go way wrong.
> 
> If it does, than the dog will most likely be euthanized -- no longer in your hands, and charges may be filed against you as well. I guess I probably wouldn't risk it until I had a lot more time into the new training/behavior regime.




Thank you Seltzer for your advice. I did post two weeks ago however it was not about asking questions of whether i was doing the right thing. It was about my experience with a behaviorist and how its helped. as been 4 weeks of taking him out in public every day. (First 2 weeks no triggers) 6 weeks total working with the behaviorist . He has not shown any anxious or aggressive behavior in that time.he is trained not to go after any other ball but his and if anybody else or another dog goes after it he leaves it. We have trained him that way since 6 weeks as I have 2 small dogs. How long do you suggest before I have him off leash in a public event? Actually that question doesn't matter because we rarely go off leash in public anymore.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Msmaria....

You have made some great successes with your dog....is the low protein diet still in effect?

SuperG


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Msmaria....
> 
> You have made some great successes with your dog....is the low protein diet still in effect?
> 
> SuperG


Yes, still below 20%. The only thing that has changed ( saw behaviorist on weds) and he said he can come back in the bedroom but on his dog bed. If daughter allows him on bed he has to be invited up, but not often. Still no couch etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lyssa62 said:


> so my roxy's behavior doppelganger is making huge progress~~~ now can you send your behavior person over to my house
> 
> I haven't read all of the comments yet but had to bounce in on this one and look for suggestions.....I was at our local mom and pop pet store the other day and the owner was talking about this lower protein thing.....and now I see it here cuz I had NO CLUE what he was talking about and neither did he ...he only said after we were talking about Roxy that he has heard of people with high energy dogs going low protein....however in his whole store we were still coming up with the lowest protein right at around 28....
> 
> ..........so HELP ...........I need a list of some at least 4 star foods with a low protein level that I MIGHT be able to find around here. Right now she's bouncing between blue buffalo rice and lamb / and / taste of the wild bison ( just cuz she's a picky little eater)


I feed Infinia Salmon and Sweet Potatoe, the protein is 22%. There are different flavors. It's listed as a 5 star food, but the flavor I use is 3.5 stars. If you read on dog food advisor some of the flavors due to meat content get lower ratings.

It says...
Above-average protein. Near-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.
Free of any plant-based protein boosters, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a notable amount of meat.
Bottom line?
Infinia Dog Food is a plant-based kibble using a notable amount of assorted meat meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 5 stars.
Enthusiastically recommended.
Please note certain recipes are sometimes given a higher or lower rating based upon our estimate of their total meat content.


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