# Not registered, but...



## Tambra (Aug 23, 2020)

Not registered, but Shotty is full breed. Dad is entirely black and a protector, Mom is a liver Shepard and a work dog, well she works on chasing toys.

My pup is a year and highly intelligent, he learned hand commands in 30 minutes. Down, stay and scitt it. I have to spell out R I D E, if I discuss his evening trips around the block. He also knows me me is bedtime, and will take his spot on my bed when I tell him its me me time.He is pure Shepard has dads protective nature and moms love of toys. I would like to purchase an unspayed female Shepard, no papers required. My boy needs a playmate.

[breeding solicitation removed by moderator]

Ultimately I'm going to have find him a friend, I can't keep up with his unending energy.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Which one of these catagories would you say you fall into and why?





German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Different Types of German Shepherd Puppy Breeders


Different kinds of German Shepherd Puppy breeders.




www.gsdca.org


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

^^^^ Great chart, I've not seen that before but it nails it!!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That chart needs to be stickied somewhere!!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

that is cool! I never thought of it like that before, but it made me realize I'm basically "a mentor"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> That chart needs to be stickied somewhere!!


i’ve added it to the choosing a breeder sticky... but man, so many of those links need updating 😬


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes Fodder, very true. I found that out the other day when I referred a new poster to that thread...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> that is cool! I never thought of it like that before, but it made me realize I'm basically "a mentor"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> Yes Fodder, very true. I found that out the other day when I referred a new poster to that thread...


same!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have a question about this one:
“To better the breed and continue a well thought-out plan”

I once said here that a good breeder should better the breed and was told by several people in the thread that a breeder doesn’t make the breed better, they breed the best representatives of breed standard so the breed doesn’t decline. So which is it? Does a good breeder better the breed or do they strive to keep to standards?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> that is cool! I never thought of it like that before, but it made me realize I'm basically "a mentor"


I think you misspelled mental. 😬


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have a question about this one:
> “To better the breed and continue a well thought-out plan”
> 
> I once said here that a good breeder should better the breed and was told by several people in the thread that a breeder doesn’t make the breed better, they breed the best representatives of breed standard so the breed doesn’t decline. So which is it? Does a good breeder better the breed or do they strive to keep to standards?


I would say they are one in the same. By breeding dogs to get closer to the standard, you improve the breed. An example would be breeding for dogs with smaller ears if the current state of the breed tends to produce oversized ears. When I say breeding to the standard, I mean working ability and temperament as well. It was just easier to use confromation as an example.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I say both because no dog is perfect, and every breeder's access to genetics is finite. Follow the blueprint as best you can, and try to plan breedings that strengthen an individual's weaknesses, in an attempt to improve.

see? I just "mentored" again, right there


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you for both agreeing with what I thought at the time. I would like to hear from those who said I was wrong then as to what they think now and why. Of course, I can’t find the post or the thread anymore.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> When I say breeding to the standard, I mean working ability and temperament as well. It was just easier to use confromation as an example.


 come to think of it v stephanitz talks about "ears too big begin to droop" in his book. Something about how wolves remain in a constant state of awareness, even while asleep, always listening for danger. The original conformation was standardized around performance, so it really is a good example imo.



LuvShepherds said:


> was told by several people in the thread that a breeder doesn’t make the breed better, they breed the best representatives of breed standard so the breed doesn’t decline.


 this reminds me of something I heard many years ago, that "the whites needed to catch up to the showlines" in terms of movement. More recently I heard "the working lines need to catch up to the showlines" in terms or movement because "lack of angulation is boring to look at."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> come to think of it v stephanitz talks about "ears too big begin to droop" in his book. Something about how wolves remain in a constant state of awareness, even while asleep, always listening for danger. The original conformation was standardized around performance, so it really is a good example imo.
> 
> 
> 
> this reminds me of something I heard many years ago, that "the whites needed to catch up to the showlines" in terms of movement. More recently I heard "the working lines need to catch up to the showlines" in terms or movement because "lack of angulation is boring to look at."


The whites were always known for better hips. Imagine that.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> this reminds me of something I heard many years ago, that "the whites needed to catch up to the showlines" in terms of movement.


Actually, one of the many reasons some breeders decided to work towards recognition as a distinct breed (for the whites) was because they didn't like the direction the show lines were taking. They had no desire to "catch up". If anything they wanted to avoid going down the path the ASL's were taking at the time.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> this reminds me of something I heard many years ago, that "the whites needed to catch up to the showlines" in terms of movement.


Actually, one of the many reasons some breeders decided to work towards recognition as a distinct breed (for the whites) was because they didn't like the direction the show lines were taking. They had no desire to "catch up". If anything they wanted to avoid going down the path the ASL's were taking at the time.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

@Whiteshepherds do you know where I can find some of that old fashioned regalwise-snowcloud-tumbledown-shadow type today? I wonder if your peds come down from there via goldfields/apache? maybe?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry - picked the wrong breeder, as it's the one I am most familiar with !
Of course, those lines are still out there, even if the kennels aren't:

Click on the numbers to see past the 3rd generation: Kia-Caprice vom Weissen Wächter

I picked this dog, because she's got a BH!



> Actually, one of the many reasons some breeders decided to work towards recognition as a distinct breed (for the whites) was because they didn't like the direction the show lines were taking. They had no desire to "catch up". If anything they wanted to avoid going down the path the ASL's were taking at the time.


EXACTLY!!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

hoofprint looks real good, and mrs berno is_ not at all _above tippy toeing across the bluewater bridge w/ an illicit WGSD pup under her skirt 

I wonder if little igor v dunklemgrau x WGSD = "silver sable?"


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

What is a "Shepard"? Maybe you mean a German Shepherd Dog?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> berno von der seeweise said:
> 
> 
> > @Whiteshepherds do you know where I can find some of that old fashioned regalwise-snowcloud-tumbledown-shadow type today? I wonder if your peds come down from there via goldfields/apache? maybe?
> ...


What is it you like about that dog? What do you mean when you say old fashioned...size, head, topline ?? Just curious.

I'm not sure those old bloodlines have a whole lot of influence today but a few breeders who come to mind with Regalwise and Tumbledown in their lines (way back) are Victorious White Shepherds, Surefire, Foxhunt, White Star Shepherds (closely affiliated with Victorious), maybe Celestial WS?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What do you mean when you say old fashioned


researching the database I see what looks like introgression to me. Specifically w/ the berger blanc suisse business. To be honest I like a little introgression, provided it's all the way down bottom right on the ped, where it's supposed to be. I'm really not picky. I like a good german shepherd, no matter what color it is. But I'm just not crazy about the other white "shepherd like" breeds. So when I dig down into the database and find what looks like introgression coming down from top right, it turns me off. But I still have *plenty* of faith in a real white GSD.









my vet gave me this thing late last winter. Frozen sire "heavy duty" 7/8 east german yada yada. May as well be an altogether different breed from the GSD I remember. I like him ok, but he's definitely overbred. No doubt in my mind I could cross him to a ham sandwich and get improved preydrives, so a WGSD may be in my very near future here?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> researching the database I see what looks like introgression to me. Specifically w/ the berger blanc suisse business. To be honest I like a little introgression, provided it's all the way down bottom right on the ped, where it's supposed to be. I'm really not picky. I like a good german shepherd, no matter what color it is. But I'm just not crazy about the other white "shepherd like" breeds. So when I dig down into the database and find what looks like introgression coming down from top right, it turns me off. But I still have *plenty* of faith in a real white GSD.
> 
> View attachment 562592
> 
> ...


I'm no spring chicken and am second generation German Shepherd. I didn't make the switch to strictly workinglines until the 80's. I do not recall any of these German Shepherds having excessive and inappropriate prey drive until the last couple of decades. I hear the same from many other people. There are even threads on the topic in this forum and others about the modern day prey monkeys that have evolved. Are you confusing this breed with another? You like to mix and match things, or so you say...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I am a natural born mixer matcher


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> researching the database I see what looks like introgression to me. Specifically w/ the berger blanc suisse business.


You lost me. All dogs are the same species. Doesn't introgression mean moving genes from one species to another ? Anyway......

The FCI doesn't allow mixing two pure breeds to develop a new breed. The parent club for the BBS in Switzerland followed FCI rules for breed recognition using GSD's, no other species were introduced. If you're implying another breed was introduced it would not have been done with common knowledge. Maybe you mean the pedigrees reflect an inconsistency in type? 



berno von der seeweise said:


> But I'm just not crazy about the other white "shepherd like" breeds. But I still have plenty of faith in a real white GSD.


By way of the standard no white GSD is considered a good specimen of the breed but as long as their pedigrees show they're purebred they're "real GSD's".


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Maybe you mean the pedigrees reflect an inconsistency in type?












granted, selection pressure x linebreeding will generate _RAPID_ phenotypical variation; but some of the stuff in the database looks awfully spitzy to me. Am I to assume _the entire_ bbs genepool descends from Lobo white burch? That's certainly not the story as told by the peds in the database. I'm seeing an awful lot of missing links back there. Especially for a bunch of well heeled swiss conformation enthusiasts. But as they say, the truth is always stranger than fiction.



Whiteshepherds said:


> By way of the standard no white GSD is considered a good specimen


I'm happy to dissent. The breed hasn't exactly "improved" since dq imo. Far be it from me to demand anyone else be forced to admire a white dog. Genetically speaking however, the wider an isolated population varies, the more biologically sustainable it is.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> but some of the stuff in the database looks awfully spitzy to me. Am I to assume the entire bbs genepool descends from Lobo white burch? That's certainly not the story as told by the peds in the database. I'm seeing an awful lot of missing links back there.


Spitzy? 

You'd have to ask the Swiss why Lobo was given that distinction, I really don't know the reasoning behind it but no, the entire BBS gene pool did not descend from Lobo. The BBS breed didn't descend from AM and Can White Shepherds either but that's what it says in their standard. (the foundation dogs were GSD's)

As informative as it can be, PD isn't an official registry or a stud book. I wouldn't read too much into what's not there.



berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm happy to dissent. The breed hasn't exactly "improved" since dq imo. Far be it from me to demand anyone else be forced to admire a white dog. Genetically speaking however, the wider an isolated population varies, the more biologically sustainable it is.


No argument from me.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Whiteshepherds said:


> BBS breed didn't descend from AM and Can White Shepherds either but that's what it says in their standard.


so have the am can white shepherd breeders -limited- themselves to breeding white x white only, or do they still occasionally use standard colored gsd stock dogs?


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## Ladonnamarie81 (Sep 29, 2020)

Tambra said:


> Not registered, but Shotty is full breed. Dad is entirely black and a protector, Mom is a liver Shepard and a work dog, well she works on chasing toys.
> 
> My pup is a year and highly intelligent, he learned hand commands in 30 minutes. Down, stay and scitt it. I have to spell out R I D E, if I discuss his evening trips around the block. He also knows me me is bedtime, and will take his spot on my bed when I tell him its me me time.He is pure Shepard has dads protective nature and moms love of toys. I would like to purchase an unspayed female Shepard, no papers required. My boy needs a playmate.
> 
> ...


Just because you have a smart dog doesnt mean it is of breeding quality, your dog is also not registered, hiw do you inow you wouldn't be imbreeding your dog. How do you know the hips, and elviws if the dogs and its lineage


Tambra said:


> Not registered, but Shotty is full breed. Dad is entirely black and a protector, Mom is a liver Shepard and a work dog, well she works on chasing toys.
> 
> My pup is a year and highly intelligent, he learned hand commands in 30 minutes. Down, stay and scitt it. I have to spell out R I D E, if I discuss his evening trips around the block. He also knows me me is bedtime, and will take his spot on my bed when I tell him its me me time.He is pure Shepard has dads protective nature and moms love of toys. I would like to purchase an unspayed female Shepard, no papers required. My boy needs a playmate.
> 
> ...


if you want a friend for him, get him neutered and get a neuteted shelter dog. Yoir dog is not genetic tested, not x rated, not pedigreed. You have no idea what lines he is. If you love your dog and love the breed. Get your boy neutered. Puppies are expensive to whelp and a million things could go wrong.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I do have one word of advice: if you think getting a second dog will free you up, think again.
German Shepherds want to be with their PEOPLE.
You get a second one, you will have TWO dogs waiting for you to do something with them.
If you are ok with doing twice of everything, including training separately, then by all means, go for it.


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