# Is this too much Protien?



## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Hello I am new here. We have had Lulu for about a month or so now and the breeder was feeding her Eukoneba. We (slowly) switched her over to Nutro large breed puppy as I thought it was a good food, we had to give her the wet + dry because she wouldn't eat the dry alone. After awhile she had very loose stools and diareah so I did some research and found that there are many issues with Nutro and it is only rated 2 stars on dogfoodanalysis.com. I finally settled on Taste of the Wild High Prairy which is rated 6 stars on above site. I slowly switched it and her stools almost immediately were normal and she gobbles it up without adding wet food. It is 100% grain free and seems to have an impressive list of healthy ingredients. 

My main question is this. Are GSD's considered "large breed puppy", the guy at the pet store told me that was more for Danes, Mastiffs, etc. The food has 32% protien and I feed her 2 cups morning and evening. Do you think this is too much protien for a pup her age (4 months)? They do have another formula which is fish based and only has around 23% protien I believe. Thanks in advance!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think you have to worry more about the calcium/phosphorous ratio rather than the protein. You don't want them to grow too quickly. One of the most recommended puppy foods is Orijen LBP and I know that has even more protein in it.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes from what I understand, the protien thing is a myth. It is actually the calcium and phosporous levels that you need to watch. I feed RAW, but for the days that I can't (for whatever reason) I have been using Solid Gold Wolf Cub (a large breed formula







). I am considering using the TOTW fish formula since it is for occasional use. I beleve out of all the TOTW formulas it has the lowest calcium and phosporus levels (although it is still on the high side). Good luck, there are alot of knowledgable people on this subject.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

gorgeous puppy!


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

GSDs are large breed. Dane's and Mastiffs are giant breeds. Find yourself a new pet store and while you're at it phone the manager and tell him the guy working there doesn't know what he is talking about.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: gsdlove212Yes from what I understand, the protien thing is a myth. It is actually the calcium and phosporous levels that you need to watch. I beleve out of all the TOTW formulas it has the lowest calcium and phosporus levels (although it is still on the high side).


+1. the lowest calcium level for TOTW is 1.9% in the Pacific Stream, which i think is still on the high side for a gsd pup.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

From all the threads on this subject(there are many and more!)
the only food that is recommended consistantly for puppies is Orijen.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

I feed mine Eagle Pack. Looking into Native Level 1. Not everyone can afford to feed Orijen. Dont worry. You will find the right food for your dogs.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks so much for all your replies! *sigh* I'm bummed because she LOVES the TOTW, gobbles it down and it's affordable (same as Nutro just about). Orijen was my #1 choice when researching but it's not readily available here (about 50 mile drive) and it is quite pricey for us. I hate to switch her for a third time but since the consensus here from experts on GSD's is that it is too much calcium for LBP. What is interesting is on dog food analysis they caution against feeding Orijen large breed puppy to large breed puppies LOL but they say because of protien. 

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=914&cat=8

It's all so confusing







I know the same feed store has innova large breed puppy. I am not sure weather to switch to the pacific stream TOTW or something else, I appreciate all your input.

Oh, btw, the pet store guy wasn't from the store I bought the TOTW, it was actually someone from another store I called who recomended the Orijen, he said I didn't need to get Orijen large breed because GSD was not really large breed, but that may have been because they were out of LBP variety and had to order it LOL


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## Mozart396 (May 11, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOrijen was my #1 choice when researching but it's not readily available here (about 50 mile drive) and it is quite pricey for us.


I buy mine online for about $55 for 30lb bag. I'm sure you can find other 5-6 star foods online as well. Petco carries 5 star foods such as Wellness and Solid Gold and they ship too. Petco has the "buy 10 bags and get 1 free" deal which is essentially almost a 10% discount.

Somebody here (can't remember which thread) did a $/calorie analysis of the "good" foods. You might look at that to make an evaluation of which provides the best bang for the $.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

On further research, the Orijen has 

Protein 42
Calcium 1.4% (min.) 
Phosphorus 1.1% (min.) 

And TOTW Pacific has :

High Prarie protein protein 32 calcium 2.1 ph 1.4

Pacific stream protein 25 calcium 1.9 ph 1.1


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteWhat is interesting is on dog food analysis they caution against feeding Orijen large breed puppy to large breed puppies LOL but they say because of protien.
> 
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=914&cat=8


dog food analysis is not very consistent with their criteria and still cites mythological, outdated thinking. however, i do think most foods with a better ingredient profile tend to be lumped into the 4-6 star category. its a useful site to look at lots of different foods and their profiles in one location, moreso if one avoids reading the written criteria and instead does their own research on a given food, IMHO.

this is the statement from that site about high protein diets:

_Most of the foods rated in the 6* category have high levels of protein. *The caution attached to these foods is an acknowledgement that some veterinary research suggests that feeding high protein dry foods to puppies may contribute to the development or exacerbation of musculoskeletal disorders* (as excess calcium and overall calories are believed to). Equally there is veterinary research that suggests that high protein is not a factor (*and we note that it does not appear to be a problem for puppies fed high protein natural raw diets*). Until such time as the issue is resolved one way or the other, we continue to acknowledge that the issue may exist. We do, of course, welcome the provision of research on this topic._

the research they refer to as showing high protein diets causing skeletal growth problem has long ago been debunked. two of the main problems with the research were:

1) rodents were used for the research
2) very low quality proteins were used in the research

note the admission that high protein in raw feeding does not affect puppies. they go on to mention the role of excess calcium, but i dont recall any warning about feeding the higher calcium foods to large breed puppies. its one of several inexplicable components of that website.

one of the most highly praised kibbles for large breed puppies is orijen large breed puppy at 40% protein and controlled calcium levels. you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who had abnormal skeletal growth problem feeding it.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks Roxy, some great info there! I am learning a lot through this! I actually called my vet for an opinion as well and she said that the TOTW was a very good premium food and she thought the calcium levels will be fine for Lulu as long as I am not giving her any calcium suppliments or treats with extra calcium in them. She said that most the dog food companies have adjusted the calcium to be within acceptable limits nowadays. I am going to keep her on the TOTW though I will try the pacific stream one next time since it is a bit lower and hope she likes it as much (she is VERY picky and she just gobbles down this kibble with no runny stools at all).

I would like to try Orijen but due to the availability and price I think I will see how she does on the TOTW for a few months before deciding to change again. 

Thanks so much for all the help, I feel a lot more educated in this area now!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNite
> I would like to try Orijen but due to the availability and price I think I will see how she does on the TOTW for a few months before deciding to change again.


if you ever do eventually try the orijen, you may find you will need to feed a fair amount less than with the TOTW as it is quite a bit more calorie dense (this was my experience anyway), so it may not be as expensive to feed as you might think. of course, i understand availability is an issue as well. there are some foods id like to be using in my rotation that are only available 90 minutes away or online.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have been feeding my pup TOTW since I brought him home... well 3 days after he got home. The pacific stream food does not agree with my pup at all. The other 2 have been great. Firm stools with plenty of energy on the other 2. He has been on it 10 weeks total and his weight and size are normal with everything I can find. So far I am very happy with the food, excluding the pacific stream formula. His stomach was messed up almost imediately after we started the switch to this food....... I will say that we tried some treats with salmon in it and messed up his stomach also. We started the switch back to the high prairie flavor today. We bought a small bag to try just in case it was like the salmon treat so there would be little waste and just like the treats with salmon, he could not take it. 

When switching over from the prairie to the wetlands we had no runny stools at all. We decided to try all 3 flavors to see what he liked the best and the other 2 he was fine. He did not seem to favor one over the other. We will continue to feed those 2 foods.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks Rapnek! I was sort of thinking... fish... for a dog? Sounds more "catty"







with what you said I think I will keep her on the prairie and maybe later on try the wetland, that sounds yummy and more natural for a dog than fish. I am not AS concerned about the Calcium being way too high since talking to her vet, the vet told me it is good that I am being cautious and educated about it but it's also easy to "overthink" these things which makes it confusing. I do feel a lot more educated in the area now though. She also said that even though diet is very important, most the hip problems they see are genetic. 

I am also finding that Lulu has more energy and less frequent, normal stools since the full switch to TOTW. The Nutro was just AWFUL I would not recommend it to anyone, constant diareah and she hated the flavor. I have a 35 lb. bag here almost full that I am just going to dump  She gobbles up the TOTW like it was steak!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I couldn't be happier with the 2 flavors I use. Of course the constant overflowing energy he has gets old sometimes... especially when it's time for bed. I can tell you that he looks really good... coat wise and I constantly get compliments on him. I would recommend it to anyone.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

LOL I know what you mean about the energy, we live high up in the Rocky mountains and have a huge natural back area. We plan to build our fence in the next month but it is not up yet and I spend most my days outside playing with her on her lead! Her energy is MUCH higher since the TOTW, marked difference. (I almost want to put her back on the Nutro... JK!!!)

I am going to start a new thread in training about HOW to train her to be off lead, right now she thinks it's a game and runs from me and hides under the deck the few times she has "snuck out". I am using a clicker and she does grandly inside .

It's funny, with Lulu, at 10pm almost on the dot every night she just goes into her crate on her own and falls asleep until 7am without waking, that part I am very thankful for!


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Mozart396
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOrijen was my #1 choice when researching but it's not readily available here (about 50 mile drive) and it is quite pricey for us.
> ...


What website is that? I paid about 70/75$ with shipping last time...


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## Mozart396 (May 11, 2009)

http://www.petnetdirect.com/page/1/PROD/ORI-8005

$58.99 per bag. 15% off coupon = ~$51 per bag. flat rate shipping.

http://alpha-nutrition.stores.yahoo.net/orlabrpu29.html

2 bags for $59.00 each. 5% off coupon.

I'm sure there are others. Online seems to be best for Orijen. But since you can get Wellness and Solid Gold at Petco, Petco seems to be very competitive with any online offer.


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