# Found myself in the dark side of youtube.



## misslesleedavis1

So i stummbled upon this little gem, i think this is disturbing on so many levels but one of the more distrubing things about it was the comment by one lady who claimed "people dont realize that this dog was just playing"???? what, even more disturbing was the fact that this man just walked away.

This does not look like play, 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmgVWE84yE


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## my boy diesel

the child wasnt having any fun if that was supposed to be a game


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## crackem

That was no play, that dog should be put down. Those are the things people need to quit making excuses for. That dog is dangerous to everyone, itself included. If that was a teenager or something I'd want to know what happened previous to when the video cut in. A child that small? That dog wouldn't live another day. That was no warning bite.


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## ZoeD1217

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## Courtney

What the heck was that?? That was awful to watch & made my stomach tense.

Was that kid just a passerby?


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## misslesleedavis1

Courtney said:


> What the heck was that?? That was awful to watch & made my stomach tense.
> 
> Was that kid just a passerby?


Seems like the child was just a passerby judging by the way the man just walked off with the dog.


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## RocketDog

I do not believe that was a joke. Not by the way that child was screaming. I cannot believe that it took all those people that long to get that dog off of that child. I would also have NOT let that owner walk away. A dog that attacked one of my babies like that? 

Reminds me of a call my brother once told me about when he was LE for the city of Kent. Three family rotts had been out with the little two year old girl in the back field. They killed her, ripped her little body apart, and wouldn't allow the parents to come near. They did not own a gun and called the police. My brother and his partner shot all three. 

This little child was lucky.


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## misslesleedavis1

All those people and only a about 6 or 7 helping, if they were not there what would have happened to that child, that is scary.


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## sparra

AWFUL.....the dog was still glaring at the child as the owner yanked it away....if he had let go that dog would have been onto that child again in a flash.....can't believe he was allowed to just walk away from the scene.....that poor little kid.


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## gsdsar

OMG!!! That was horrifying. How did those people let that man walk away with that dog?!?!?!?!?!? Disgusting!!! And if I M being honest, that would be one of the times where I would go in full of anger. I don't think the dog would have made it out alive. Honestly. Unacceptable. 

Not the US though, sounded like German or Dutch. Not that that makes any difference. 


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## selzer

That was hard to watch. 

It was 2012, so not this year, but still. I don't care if a little kid panics or screams or pets a dog without permission that is being walked in a busy public area. That dog is dangerous, and it should be put down.


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## SunCzarina

I don't know what country that is but it's horrifying that the owner was allowed to just walk off with the dog.


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## David Winners

That's a horrible thing to happen to a kid. I hope she's OK. At least she didn't get bit. The dog had a hold of her pants.

I wonder what the people that think it's never acceptable to get physical with a dog think about this video. What if that dog was on your leg or arm like that?


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## Packen

You just click and say "uh uh".


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## SunCzarina

Yes that is a rare instance where if nobody has a something (break stick etc) to jam between it's jaws, punching the dog in the head is an acceptable solution. 

However, it's a random dog on the street attacking a child. Not a 6 month old puppy who doesn't know it's own strength bouncing up and tagging it's master on the arm.


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## Konotashi

SunCzarina said:


> Yes that is a rare instance where if nobody has a something (break stick etc) to jam between it's jaws, punching the dog in the head is an acceptable solution.
> 
> However, it's a random dog on the street attacking a child. Not a 6 month old puppy who doesn't know it's own strength bouncing up and tagging it's master on the arm.


I'm doubting that punching the dog in the head would make it let go. 
When my mom's pit bull and lab got into a fight, her pit had a hold of the lab by the throat. I was punching her in the head and face as hard as I could. I made her nose bleed. She didn't budge.


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## Packen

Better option would be to "click, then choke him out".


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## Blitzkrieg1

Another ****ter thats due for a needle, I owned a dog like that. The only thing that kept it from attacking children or anything else was that it was more afraid of me then whoever the object of its aggression was. No fooling around with clickers or excuses control, control and more control. 
The dog was like that from 4 months old btw, only reason it was able to be out in public was "special" attention from day one.


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## SunCzarina

Why would you want to live with a dog like that? Or live like that, always having to manage a dog that can't control itself.

We didn't see what happened before the attack so it's just armchair quarterbacking to say euthanize it. Maybe the careless owner and careless parent let the child ride the dog like a pony.


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## boomer11

Packen said:


> You just click and say "uh uh".


Hahahhaha


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## boomer11

SunCzarina said:


> Yes that is a rare instance where if nobody has a something (break stick etc) to jam between it's jaws, punching the dog in the head is an acceptable solution.
> 
> However, it's a random dog on the street attacking a child. Not a 6 month old puppy who doesn't know it's own strength bouncing up and tagging it's master on the arm.


So the only difference is that one is a puppy? It's only a puppy mentally but a 6 month Shepherd is as big or bigger than roughly 50‰ of dog breeds. 

So if a dog bites a stranger you can punch it but if it bites the owner you just click and treat? What if that pup realizes it can do whatever it wants and biting it's owner gets the dog it's way and suddenly he tries the same thing on a kid. Do you still click and treat the "puppy"?


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## trcy

Konotashi said:


> I'm doubting that punching the dog in the head would make it let go.
> When my mom's pit bull and lab got into a fight, her pit had a hold of the lab by the throat. I was punching her in the head and face as hard as I could. I made her nose bleed. She didn't budge.


Having broken up a few pit fights I have found the hose works best. They do not like water.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I use to like projects. 
Armchair quarterbacking is what you do if you comment on a situation you have never dealt with.


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## Baillif

I got a comment on break sticks deleted for some reason I think it's a dirty word on the forum. 

If I had a prong on that dog I'd have used it to prong him off his feet and slam him off the side of a tree or parked car or the ground or possibly all three.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> I got a comment on break sticks deleted for some reason I think it's a dirty word on the forum.
> 
> If I had a prong on that dog I'd have used it to prong him off his feet and slam him off the side of a tree or parked car or the ground or possibly all three.


How abusive , its owners like you that create dogs like that. Being all mean and scary. The dog was probably afraid and bit the child so he could relieve his stress. I hope you feel like a big man with your prong collars, break sticks and SHOCK collars!


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## KaiserandStella

Ugh.. scrambling at first but they did succeed. Immobilizing the dog was a good idea. You want to prevent shaking and pulling that ends in tearing but it looked like the dog had a hold of the clothing only. The strike to the face it seems is why it released. Although I don't think punching/striking the face of a dog is a very effective corrective technique, I'm glad it worked out in this case. It doesn't always.


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## Sarah~

This is why I carry a break stick on walks :/ call me abusive but when I get a dog to let go with it I bet some would change their mind about them.


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## Blanketback

That was awful! If that was my dog, I'd have given the term "alpha roll" a whole new meaning. Seriously, that's unbelievable!!! Crap, when I said I had a GSD that didn't like kids, I sure hope nobody thought that's the kind of dog I was walking around in public with!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ugh. When you see a small child being drug around helpless like that by a predator animal, very visceral reaction and no sympathy for the dog or it's owners. 

Looks like a beauceron........

Someone did hit the dog, eventually....

Bailiff there have been discussions about breaking up pitt fights here in the past where break sticks were mentioned without issues


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## Gwenhwyfair

Question for our trainers on board here, assuming the dog has not been mistreated by children in the past, what are the reasons behind some dogs reacting aggressively to children?


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## Blanketback

And in post #15 of this thread, too. Huh, what did I miss this time, lol?


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## misslesleedavis1

One of the most disturbing things about this video was the comments it got. Comments about the child being in the wrong by screaming and getting poor pup upset even more. The dog was just playing. The dog should be put to sleep after an incident like that. 

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## SunCzarina

Quote:
Originally Posted by *SunCzarina*  
_Yes that is a rare instance where if nobody has a something (break stick etc) to jam between it's jaws, punching the dog in the head is an acceptable solution. 

However, it's a random dog on the street attacking a child. Not a 6 month old puppy who doesn't know it's own strength bouncing up and tagging it's master on the arm._





boomer11 said:


> So the only difference is that one is a puppy? It's only a puppy mentally but a 6 month Shepherd is as big or bigger than roughly 50‰ of dog breeds.
> 
> So if a dog bites a stranger you can punch it but if it bites the owner you just click and treat? What if that pup realizes it can do whatever it wants and biting it's owner gets the dog it's way and suddenly he tries the same thing on a kid. Do you still click and treat the "puppy"?


Whatever your problem is Boomey, knock it off. No idea where you're getting the click and treat impression. Or you're just making assumptions that all female GSD trainers are clicker trainers. Bad move, very bad.


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## SunCzarina

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I use to like projects.
> Armchair quarterbacking is what you do if you comment on a situation you have never dealt with.


and where is this project now? Why was he so aggressive? Rescue? Mental defective. Just curious, I used to like projects too.


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## misslesleedavis1

Also you cant blame a child for something like that. That little one looked liked he may have been 4. 

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## Blanketback

The whole thing was crazy, but the owner dragging the dog away while it still wanted to go after the child made me sick. My dog would have been a cringing, tail-tucked mess after something so abhorrent. And I'll spell it out for people: this is unacceptable, period. The fact that I'd deal with that issue in such a swift and meaningful way would mean the difference between keeping my dog or PTS, because this can't be repeated EVER. I think they call it a "Come To Jesus" moment.


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## SunCzarina

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Also you cant blame a child for something like that. That little one looked liked he may have been 4.


I would never blame a child that age for not knowing better. 

Just saying, we don't see what happened prior to the dog latching on. The person holding the leash is entirely to blame.

I've had kids up to 6 or 7 come RUN at my dogs with their hands waving to pet them. I always tell the child 'NO! Never approach a dog without asking! My dogs won't hurt you but not all dogs like children' yes I've heard some 'they're mean dogs' nonsense from the parents but the way I look at that is the person's so ignorant they didn't teach their kids not to run up to unknown dogs, their opinion of my dogs is not my problem.


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## misslesleedavis1

Blitzkrieg im curious to know what you would have done in that situation. As a passersby that just happened to run into that whole mess.

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## crackem

SunCzarina said:


> Why would you want to live with a dog like that? Or live like that, always having to manage a dog that can't control itself.
> 
> We didn't see what happened before the attack so it's just armchair quarterbacking to say euthanize it. Maybe the careless owner and careless parent let the child ride the dog like a pony.


it wouldn't even matter if the owners and parents were careless. Any dog that goes after a child that size is a POS. If you're not aware of that as an owner, it's better for all involved that a dog like that be put down. I could live with a warning bite given the right circumstances, I would never in a million years tolerate that type of reaction on a small child from any dog that would own. There are much, much, much better dogs out there that deserve my time and attention. 

For those that chose to give every dog like this a chance, good for you. Now do right by the dog and everyone else and keep everyone safe. Don't make excuses.


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## crackem

as for the rest, there is a difference between managing a dangerous situation and training. I know learning can happen during a situation that is being "managed", but I prefer the training and learning to take place under more controlled situations where choking out, break sticks and head punches aren't in my normal bag of tricks  

In a dangerous situation you do what needs to be done. If you find yourself in those situations often, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your dog or your training skills.


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## crackem

SunCzarina said:


> [ No idea where you're getting the click and treat impression. Or you're just making assumptions that all female GSD trainers are clicker trainers. Bad move, very bad.


Don't worry, I'm pretty sure chicks don't have things like I have dangling between their legs and I click and treat too  well I don't click, but I do mark, same concept.  Lots of us do.

and his comment was either him being facetious or clearly not understanding how "click and treat" would be applied to train a dog. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## ayoitzrimz

I dont know why people have a problem with what bystanders did to protect the kid. I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't hesitate to put a crowbar to a dog's head if that's what it took and I like dogs more than humans (and definitely more than kids). Sorry, a human's life is more precious I don't care what the AR people say. 

I think the guy punching the dog did the right thing. The wrong thing was to let the owner walk away from it. As far as I'm concerned, dog's fault or not I don't know because I didn't see the situation, but that dog should be taken from the owner and evaluated by a professional and then, PTS is not a bad idea but should be decided by a professional. Just my opinion.


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## ayoitzrimz

boomer11 said:


> So the only difference is that one is a puppy? It's only a puppy mentally but a 6 month Shepherd is as big or bigger than roughly 50‰ of dog breeds.
> 
> So if a dog bites a stranger you can punch it but if it bites the owner you just click and treat? What if that pup realizes it can do whatever it wants and biting it's owner gets the dog it's way and suddenly he tries the same thing on a kid. Do you still click and treat the "puppy"?


Yea it's a huge difference. My wife can argue and yell with me but she doesn't go around yelling at strangers or attacking them (she doesn't do it to me either). Owner and dog will sometimes have a conflict. That happens. Dog attacking a random kid on the street IMO is much worse than a little "family argument".


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## RocketDog

ayoitzrimz said:


> I dont know why people have a problem with what bystanders did to protect the kid. I would have done the same thing.* I wouldn't hesitate to put a crowbar to a dog's head if that's what it took *and I like dogs more than humans (and definitely more than kids). Sorry, a human's life is more precious I don't care what the AR people say.
> 
> I think the guy punching the dog did the right thing. The wrong thing was to let the owner walk away from it. As far as I'm concerned, dog's fault or not I don't know because I didn't see the situation, but that dog should be taken from the owner and evaluated by a professional and then, PTS is not a bad idea but should be decided by a professional. Just my opinion.



If that had been my kid and I was there-- well, let's just say **** hath no wrath like a mother protecting her kid. I swear I could rip that dog apart with my bare hands. :angryfire:


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## ayoitzrimz

RocketDog said:


> If that had been my kid and I was there-- well, let's just say **** hath no wrath like a mother protecting her kid. I swear I could rip that dog apart with my bare hands. :angryfire:


I believe you. It's amazing what humans can do when their family is at risk. I wouldn't blame you either


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## KaiserandStella

I like taking on project dogs and want to save them but I think incidents like this are completely unacceptable and children always come first.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Question for our trainers on board here, assuming the dog has not been mistreated by children in the past, what are the reasons behind some dogs reacting aggressively to children?


I'm not a trainer but I'd like to give my input if I may? I'd like to know what the pros think of it. I think there are a couple reasons why dogs may go after human children. 1. Prey. The quick movements of a child coupled with high pitched sounds, and lack of confidence/fear may trigger a prey response. Some dogs may chase but not bite. Some dogs don't see children as prey and then there are dogs that do. 2. Dislike and low tolerance. Some dogs have a small fuse with children and/or puppies. They don't care that the child is not a threat to them. Some are easily annoyed and quick to go overboard "correcting" but won't maul a child. Others have no restraint and want to make them disappear. 3. Fear/uneasiness. The young child's behaviors illicit a prey response in some dogs, while others it's fear-induced aggression. These dogs are usually comfortable with older kids but the small ones 5 and under make them uncomfortable. They react nervously/fearful/uneasy with a child coming towards or walking/running past them. Eventually they may attack.


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## misslesleedavis1

Kaiserandstella, I like your post, im no trainer either but to me that dog looked like he was not scared at all, he looked like he wanted to go back and play tug o child some more ,
David winners,
I think if that dog had a chance to grab skin instead of pants it would have.

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## selzer

David Winners said:


> That's a horrible thing to happen to a kid. I hope she's OK. At least she didn't get bit. The dog had a hold of her pants.
> 
> I wonder what the people that think it's never acceptable to get physical with a dog think about this video. What if that dog was on your leg or arm like that?


Personally, I like to be physical with my dogs. I hug them and rough house with them, and PLAY with them very physically. I am not a fan of physical punishment. Putting a dog into the commanded position, following through with a command, etc, could be considered a physical correction -- but not punishment. 

Would I physically punish this dog? No way. What is the point? I would put the dog down. It isn't right. It isn't safe, and no amount of physical punishment will make that dog safe. It is possible that physical punishment contributed to this dog's demise, but that would only be conjecture, and certainly I think dogs can be this insane without having been treated with abusive punishment over time. 

But of course, one would do whatever they could do to get the dog to release the child and to prevent the dog from getting at the child again. I do not know if punching would be very effective or the most effective, and might increase the dog's energy and persistence. What you would want is for the dog to release it's grip. Increasing the punching and hitting might make the dog bear down and shake. I don't know, and I would never want to be in such a situation. 

But I think I would go for the dog's eyes rather than punching the dog. You have to have a LOT of force to shake a dog with a blow to the head. But it is possible with much less force by going for the eyes, or other vulnerable areas, you might be able to redirect such a dog onto a yourself, so that the child could be removed. 

I don't blame the bystanders at all. I would probably be standing there in everyone's way with my mouth hanging open catching flies. I don't know because I have never been in the situation. I hope, I could be a hero and taking part in the rescue. But it is kind of sweet of us to criticize them while we sit on our warm, safe chairs typing on a computer, and picturing ourselves in our make-believe hero-roles. 

As for confronting the guy walking away with the dog, well, I might follow him and see where he goes, but the guy has a vicious Rottweiler. Having the attack filmed, one would hope they could get a good description of the guy and figure out who he was by it. I would plaster his face all over the six o'clock news with the phone number of the local police. Someone would turn him in.

By the way, I think using an event like this to make fun of people for their training styles, and ideologies, is kind of crappy.


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## boomer11

ayoitzrimz said:


> Yea it's a huge difference. My wife can argue and yell with me but she doesn't go around yelling at strangers or attacking them (she doesn't do it to me either). Owner and dog will sometimes have a conflict. That happens. Dog attacking a random kid on the street IMO is much worse than a little "family argument".


Did you just try comparing your wife to your dog? Lol. Btw your analogy sucks. It's not even close. Pretty sure you completely missed the point. 

Try if a guy beats his wife and gets his way. The guy might try beating up a stranger to get his way since it worked before. You let a dog get away with something serious and suddenly it thinks rules don't apply to it.


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## ayoitzrimz

boomer11 said:


> Did you just try comparing your wife to your dog? Lol. Btw your analogy sucks. It's not even close. Pretty sure you completely missed the point.
> 
> Try if a guy beats his wife and gets his way. The guy might try beating up a stranger to get his way since it worked before. You let a dog get away with something serious and suddenly it thinks rules don't apply to it.


Ok, thanks for being mature about it 

What I meant to say, and I'll try to explain it in simple terms, is that dog handler conflicts do not necessarily translate to outward aggression towards strangers.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Of course you may! . Makes sense what you wrote.

When I watched the video, albeit only once, my initial sense was this dog was in prey drive.

To be clear that doesn't excuse what the dog did, but understanding why a dog would act this way is helpful IMO.

I hope bailiff or David or Carmen chime in too. 



KaiserandStella said:


> I like taking on project dogs and want to save them but I think incidents like this are completely unacceptable and children always come first.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a trainer but I'd like to give my input if I may? I'd like to know what the pros think of it. I think there are a couple reasons why dogs may go after human children. 1. Prey. The quick movements of a child coupled with high pitched sounds, and lack of confidence/fear may trigger a prey response. Some dogs may chase but not bite. Some dogs don't see children as prey and then there are dogs that do. 2. Dislike and low tolerance. Some dogs have a small fuse with children and/or puppies. They don't care that the child is not a threat to them. Some are easily annoyed and quick to go overboard "correcting" but won't maul a child. Others have no restraint and want to make them disappear. 3. Fear/uneasiness. The young child's behaviors illicit a prey response in some dogs, while others it's fear-induced aggression. These dogs are usually comfortable with older kids but the small ones 5 and under make them uncomfortable. They react nervously/fearful/uneasy with a child coming towards or walking/running past them. Eventually they may attack.


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## David Winners

selzer said:


> Personally, I like to be physical with my dogs. I hug them and rough house with them, and PLAY with them very physically. I am not a fan of physical punishment. Putting a dog into the commanded position, following through with a command, etc, could be considered a physical correction -- but not punishment.
> 
> I should have phrased my question differently. I should have asked:
> 
> What do those of you who believe harsh positive punishment has no place in dog training think should have been done in this case?
> 
> I think it was clear what I meant by "getting physical," when taken in context of the previous conversation. I think being evasive by calling getting hugs from your dog being physical is non productive to the conversation and meant to be condescending.
> 
> Would I physically punish this dog? No way. What is the point? I would put the dog down. It isn't right. It isn't safe, and no amount of physical punishment will make that dog safe. It is possible that physical punishment contributed to this dog's demise, but that would only be conjecture, and certainly I think dogs can be this insane without having been treated with abusive punishment over time.
> 
> How is this going to deal with the dog that is currently hanging on to the kids pants? I assume you mean you wouldn't attempt to train the dog after the incident using positive punishment, but would just have the dog PTS. I am specifically referring to what should be done in the moment.
> 
> But of course, one would do whatever they could do to get the dog to release the child and to prevent the dog from getting at the child again. I do not know if punching would be very effective or the most effective, and might increase the dog's energy and persistence. What you would want is for the dog to release it's grip. Increasing the punching and hitting might make the dog bear down and shake. I don't know, and I would never want to be in such a situation.
> 
> I'm glad you have never been in this situation. Part of what I am trying to say is that the situation dictates the response. There are people that get very offended when a trainer talks about the need to apply a severe physical correction in certain circumstances and say that it is never warranted. These same people have never been in this type of situation with this type of dog, yet they call it abuse when someone resorts to harsh corrections.
> 
> But I think I would go for the dog's eyes rather than punching the dog. You have to have a LOT of force to shake a dog with a blow to the head. But it is possible with much less force by going for the eyes, or other vulnerable areas, you might be able to redirect such a dog onto a yourself, so that the child could be removed.
> 
> Right. You do what you need to do. I'm not going to talk about methods because it's always a trigger for people. You handle the situation in a way that makes the dog stop damaging the human.
> 
> I don't blame the bystanders at all. I would probably be standing there in everyone's way with my mouth hanging open catching flies. I don't know because I have never been in the situation. I hope, I could be a hero and taking part in the rescue. But it is kind of sweet of us to criticize them while we sit on our warm, safe chairs typing on a computer, and picturing ourselves in our make-believe hero-roles.
> 
> As for confronting the guy walking away with the dog, well, I might follow him and see where he goes, but the guy has a vicious Rottweiler. Having the attack filmed, one would hope they could get a good description of the guy and figure out who he was by it. I would plaster his face all over the six o'clock news with the phone number of the local police. Someone would turn him in.
> 
> By the way, I think using an event like this to make fun of people for their training styles, and ideologies, is kind of crappy.


I don't see where I made fun of anyone. When I said "I wonder what the people that think it's never acceptable to get physical with a dog think about this video. What if that dog was on your leg or arm like that?" I was being sincere. I think many people have commented about harsh positive punishment out of naivety. They have a firm stance on the subject, calling such methods abusive, but have never been in a situation where a dog is honestly trying to hurt someone. No one has yet answered the question of what they would do if the dog was on their arm like that dog is hanging onto the kid in the video.

About the video: 

I'm not making excuses for the dog here, but rather exploring some possibilities.

I wish we could see what happened before the video started. If the dog and kid were playing together and the dog grabbed the kids pants and tugged, causing the kid to fall down and freak out, the subsequent squealing and thrashing of the kid could cause the dog to go into prey and hang on. It didn't have a hold of skin, and I think if it really wanted to hurt the kid in the first place, it probably would have.


It's impossible to say where this behavior came from without seeing the actions that led up to the start of the video. It seems that the dog is really keyed into the kid, even after it's removed from the bite. A lot of this could be triggered by the squealing and thrashing of the kid, plus being pulled back by the owner. 

If you watch the video with the sound off, avoiding the natural defense response that we all have when a kid is screaming, you will see that the dog is pulling at the kids pants, and never drives in deeper for a real bite, even though it could have. The owner is pulling back on the dog, but the pressure is not constant. The dog could have countered at several times to really grab the kid. 

After the owner has the dog restrained, a bystander hits the dog once in the face with a pretty light blow and the dog immediately lets go. This didn't shut the dog down or send it into avoidance. That's a big dog with a big head. He didn't hurt it with that punch. 

After the dog lets go, it's not dragging the owner around or barking aggressively. It still shows interest in the kid, but goes along pretty peacefully with the owner.

So in my (trying my best to be) objective opinion, the dog was overstimulated and in prey. It wasn't trying to kill the kid. It is inexcusable for a dog to behave this way. I wouldn't immediately put the dog down, but would evaluate it's response to kids in a manner that was safe to everyone involved. 

Who knows how the owner plays with this dog in his home? Maybe he roughhouses like some on this forum do. If the dog is used to wrestling through very rough play, it may have not understood what was going on until it got smacked in the face. 

It could have been aggression and the dog, thankfully, just didn't know what to do. It may have been thinking that the kid was squealing out of pain and that he was really hurting it. If that is the case, the dog needs a dirt nap. It is impossible for me to tell without really seeing the dog and understanding what sets it off. Others may have more experience and insight into the dog's behavior.


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## ayoitzrimz

David: that was a very thoughtful well put post. Who knows how the owner plays with the dog at home - great point. Maybe the owner and his kids think its fun to run around and let the dog grab at their pants... who knows what really happened without seeing the actions before the video started


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree, very interesting. Thanks for the post David.


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## David Winners

I'm looking hard for a video that was sent to me concerning a Rottie that would constantly nip people in the butt when they stopped paying attention to him or tried to leave the home. He had left some pretty bad bruises on a couple of visitors to the house, and then ended up dragging a kid around much like in this video. The video was shot as a last ditch effort to get help before they put the dog down.

The owner was only about an hour away, so I went right over to help him. The dog was friendly and social, but had no manners and would push people for attention. It was mouthy and totally unresponsive to the owners. Lack of training.

I played with the dog for a bit, and it was obvious that the dog loved to roughhouse. It immediately went into overexcited play mode, redirecting on pillows and people then coming back to me for more play. I then allowed the dog to settle and ignored it for a bit while talking with the owners about what to do. When I got up to leave, the dog bit me hard in the butt, trying to re engage me in play. When I reacted, the dog immediately started the very rough play behavior as before. The owners said this was normal, and that the husband liked to play with the dog this way.

It took some time and reading for the owners to understand how to live with their dog and show it what was acceptable and what was not. They put in the work and the dog was fine. 


I am absolutely not saying that this is the case in the video. I am stressing here that the dog should be evaluated because there could be vastly different reasons for it's behavior.


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## KaiserandStella

Gwenhwyfair & David Winners (well thought out post) - I was thinking prey as well. Felt like the dog was more toying with the idea of being a predator. Regardless, it doesn't excuse what happened or the lack of ability on the owners part to prevent it from happening in the first place. Very unacceptable no matter the reason.


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## Gwenhwyfair

A bit off topic but the butt nipping thing reminded me of horse related training story...that actually fits here...

Where I boarded a newbie to the horse world had a nice Tennessee Walker, nice calm, mild mannered gelding. The owner thought it would be cute to teach the horse to pull carrots out of his back pocket. I warned the guy to not do that, "One day" I told him, "he's going to bite you in the butt". Sure enough month or so later I happened to be there to witness it. He didn't have any carrots in his back pocket so the horse chomped down on his butt. Was sort-a funny in that case, no kids, no real injury....but it's one of those things sometimes we actually 'train the problems' into our animals.


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## selzer

Actually, I was not meaning to be condescending at all. I think there are a lot of people out there with dogs that do not like to be touched, here, there, hugged, people in there face, etc. And they excuse a dog's aggression in those incidents. For a child to be in the face of a dog, for a kid to hug a dog -- I do draw the line at a dog being ridden like a pony though. 

I am very physical with my dogs. I do allow them to jump up. That is something I started with Jenna (after the incident with the other dog) because her training class was so BORING and NOT FUN, I wanted to be able to do something to keep her engaged and having fun, while waiting our turn. I think that sometimes, our physical presence with a dog can provide the dog with the information they need to recognize some stuff about human-canine interaction. And I want that human-canine interaction to be mostly positive. 

But that physical stuff does make a dog understand that I am bigger, not afraid, maybe stronger than they are, all in a very positive manner. 

It was not to be condescending. l do not have any fancy phychology words for that, psych 101 was many years ago. So I do not consider that Positive Reinforcement or Positive Punishment or anything like that. 

I do not have any dogs that do not allow me to be in their face, hug them, touch them anywhere on their bodies, etc. And they are all gentle with me. They learn to jump up gently. They take treats gently. They lick my face, and one of my toughest customers, jumps up on a dog house for her daily hug. And I think that being physical with the dog is a part of that. 

In training I am not a fan of physical punishment. Mostly because I can use my voice and they understand that they did something wrong. I want contact with me to be positive. But they are for the most part dogs that I have had most of their lives or all of their lives. I can't be certain, but when a dog's initial impression of you is this super-strong, powerful giantess you do not generally have to roll the dog on the ground to get it to take you seriously. 

I do have dogs that have been out of my care or purchased, and from the beginning, not being frightened or dancing around them has perhaps given them that same impression -- this person I can follow. This is a person I will allow to do anything. 

My comment about picking on those who try to be purely positive (not me BTW) was an afterthought in my post, and to you and others on this thread, as you were not the only one that likened the two threads. 

This dog-incident was very different than the puppy, I think. Though you make some points about the child not being bitten at all. The problem with all of that, is that the dog continued his tugging pulling going even though his handler/owner and all those other people were trying to get him to stop. If the dog was just playing tug with the kid's pants, then why could the owner not get it to stop? Why did it take a bunch of people? Also, that dog acted like in a heartbeat it would be back over there going for the kid again.


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## selzer

"What do those of you who believe harsh positive punishment has no place in dog training think should have been done in this case?"

David, the thing is this dog wasn't being trained in this case. Using whatever means available to separate a child from a dog has nothing to do with punishment in dog training I think.


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## David Winners

The really dangerous thing in dismissing this behavior, which the owner may do, is that part of the prey sequence is killing. The dog may escalate in the future and be a real danger, especially if ineffective punishment is used on the dog inflicting pain but not enough to cause the dog to go into avoidance. That's why I don't use prong/e-collar corrections on a dog that is aggressing on another dog or human. 

Just because it is prey behavior doesn't mean it should be taken any less seriously than aggression. Please don't think I am being dismissive of the severity of the situation.


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## crackem

Seriously, does it matter what frame of mind the dog was in. It didn't matter if it was pants or a leg that dog was intent on keeping what it had. It was prey and there was intent behind it. It wasn't hpaay play stuff.

Keep making excuses for it, and one day you'll have to make more.


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## crackem

David Winners said:


> The really dangerous thing in dismissing this behavior, which the owner may do, is that part of the prey sequence is killing. The dog may escalate in the future and be a real danger, especially if ineffective punishment is used on the dog inflicting pain but not enough to cause the dog to go into avoidance. That's why I don't use prong/e-collar corrections on a dog that is aggressing on another dog or human.
> 
> Just because it is prey behavior doesn't mean it should be taken any less seriously than aggression. Please don't think I am being dismissive of the severity of the situation.


We must have been typing at the same time


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## KaiserandStella

crackem said:


> Seriously, does it matter what frame of mind the dog was in. It didn't matter if it was pants or a leg that dog was intent on keeping what it had. It was prey and there was intent behind it. It wasn't hpaay play stuff.
> 
> Keep making excuses for it, and one day you'll have to make more.


 Is there something wrong with just discussing the psychology behind the dogs attack? I don't think anyone is excusing it all? I wonder what transpired right before the events in the video and where the dogs owner was at mentally.


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## David Winners

selzer said:


> "What do those of you who believe harsh positive punishment has no place in dog training think should have been done in this case?"
> 
> David, the thing is this dog wasn't being trained in this case. Using whatever means available to separate a child from a dog has nothing to do with punishment in dog training I think.


This dog was absolutely being trained. It learned something from this incident. That's the point. If the appropriate response to an action is taken, it will reduce the chance that the action will happen again in the future. It may extinguish the behavior entirely.

I will speak about the incident I had with Fama, as it is public knowledge. She was overstimulated in her crate when I had to get her out for training. When she came out of the crate, which was in the back of an SUV, she went after me. I raised my arm to defend myself and got her collar, she bit down on my wrist. It went to the ground and She was really going after me. I rolled her over and pounded on her until she quit. I let her up. We were fine, forever.

Single event learning. If the owner had responded appropriately in the video, that dog may never consider that course of action again.


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## David Winners

crackem said:


> Seriously, does it matter what frame of mind the dog was in. It didn't matter if it was pants or a leg that dog was intent on keeping what it had. It was prey and there was intent behind it. It wasn't hpaay play stuff.
> 
> Keep making excuses for it, and one day you'll have to make more.


To address this further, I think it is imperative to understand what frame of mind the dog was in. Understanding where this type of behavior begins will allow you to stop it from getting to this point. Rough, inappropriate play could result in inappropriate behavior. Understanding this and setting boundaries for the dog could mitigate the chances of this happening. It may do nothing for the dog in the video, but understanding the why of the incident will help us avoid this type of behavior in the future.

To avoid observing the incident objectively and just reacting to the behavior is not going to allow us to learn from the incident.


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## Gwenhwyfair

First of all, David, your tone in explanation did not come across as dismissive to the seriousness of this event and well put below.

Put another way > *@ crackem* - Forensics is a part of examining situations after the fact and hopefully learning to avoid them (or in the case of crime catch the bad guy!).

It's _illogical_ to conflate analysis with condoning the actions of the dog.




David Winners said:


> To address this further, I think it is imperative to understand what frame of mind the dog was in. Understanding where this type of behavior begins will allow you to stop it from getting to this point. Rough, inappropriate play could result in inappropriate behavior. Understanding this and setting boundaries for the dog could mitigate the chances of this happening. It may do nothing for the dog in the video, but understanding the why of the incident will help us avoid this type of behavior in the future.
> 
> To avoid observing the incident objectively and just reacting to the behavior is not going to allow us to learn from the incident.


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## Wolfgeist

That poor child - this video makes my stomach turn. Could have gone so much worse... I can't imagine being the parent trying to stop the dog...


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## RocketDog

Single-event learning: that is what I was getting at in that other thread about fair and just corrections. There are some instances were one correction should be all it takes. Not all of them; but some.


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## ayoitzrimz

David Winners said:


> This dog was absolutely being trained. It learned something from this incident. That's the point. If the appropriate response to an action is taken, it will reduce the chance that the action will happen again in the future. It may extinguish the behavior entirely.
> 
> I will speak about the incident I had with Fama, as it is public knowledge. She was overstimulated in her crate when I had to get her out for training. When she came out of the crate, which was in the back of an SUV, she went after me. I raised my arm to defend myself and got her collar, she bit down on my wrist. It went to the ground and She was really going after me. I rolled her over and pounded on her until she quit. I let her up. We were fine, forever.
> 
> Single event learning. If the owner had responded appropriately in the video, that dog may never consider that course of action again.


To speak more of that, and David I don't have nearly the amount of experience you do but my dog went after me once and only once but it wasn't nearly this bad. Was during protection phase training. Working a lot on control, drive containment, and obedience under distractions. Don't remember what led up to this, but giving my dog a correction that was fully justified and properly timed my dog just couldn't take it anymore and snapped at my hand. That was 2 years ago. I dealt with it right there and then. Training has turned from the above to I will not tolerate handler aggression. It was swift, decisive, and without much emotion. He has never done that again and he's been at the same level of stress and higher since.

The problem IMO comes when the handler and dog are in conflict and in an attempt to resolve the conflict the handler isn't doing the right thing, and they end in conflict. My TD used to say you can't end conflict fist to fist, it's your fist above his (imagine him actually making those fists to explain). If you end fist to fist the same conflict will happen again, only this time the dog will escalate because he didn't win the conflict last time, but he didn't quite lose it either.

That doesn't mean beating the crap out of the dog, but it does mean that the dog needs to understand that there are things that are absolutely positively NEVER EVER tolerated. 

This has nothing to do with the original post anymore, just a response to the above.


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## David Winners

ayoitzrimz said:


> The problem IMO comes when the handler and dog are in conflict and in an attempt to resolve the conflict the handler isn't doing the right thing, and they end in conflict. My TD used to say you can't end conflict fist to fist, it's your fist above his (imagine him actually making those fists to explain). If you end fist to fist the same conflict will happen again, only this time the dog will escalate because he didn't win the conflict last time, but he didn't quite lose it either.


This is just the reason that I don't do set-ups with aggressive dogs with the intention of punishing the dog. I don't ever try and prompt a fight. I do everything I can to work with the dog, gaining it's trust and respect. The only time I will do this type of thing is if I am defending myself or someone else.

You can come out on the other end with a dog convinced that next time it will just go harder and win.


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## crackem

I can bet I would know long before something like this occurs that there is an issue to work on.


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## Baillif

Packen said:


> You just click and say "uh uh".


Lure him off with a cookie


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## misslesleedavis1

What do you think would have happened if they did not stop the dog?

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## SunCzarina

This all prompts the question: if that were your dog and it took hold of a child like that, what would you do? Right then and there to the dog and afterwards? 

For the sake of argument, DOG's leash is in your hand and the child ran right up to DOG and hugged DOG deeply. You didn't see it coming, child snuck up behind it.

I had a bitch that was terrified of children about the age Venus is now. We didn't have children then, she'd come to me at 6 months old a shattered mess with baggage. We were working up from wanting to hide behind my leg when she saw children to being intrigued from a distance.

My neighbor had 3 little girls as I recall they were from 5 to 9 at the time. These girls would always be out unsupervised and they liked to come pet the dogs through the fence. No matter how many times I told them not to and the bitch snapped at their fingers.

One day I'm talking to the someone outside my fence with the bitch on a leash and one of the girls came up and gave her a bear hug. I didn't see it coming but I was thankful the bitch had a lousy grip. Bitch ended up pinned under me. I may have smacked her across the muzzle, I don't remember it was a long time ago.

There was only one more incident where she put her mouth on a kid. Many years later when she was old. My son's friend's older brother was acting rather like a monkey swinging off an arbor infront of her and staring at her. She nailed him in the stomach, again not a good grip just ripped his T Shirt but she ended up on the ground then too.


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## crackem

David Winners said:


> To address this further, I think it is imperative to understand what frame of mind the dog was in. Understanding where this type of behavior begins will allow you to stop it from getting to this point. Rough, inappropriate play could result in inappropriate behavior. Understanding this and setting boundaries for the dog could mitigate the chances of this happening. It may do nothing for the dog in the video, but understanding the why of the incident will help us avoid this type of behavior in the future.
> 
> To avoid observing the incident objectively and just reacting to the behavior is not going to allow us to learn from the incident.


i don't care if people want to talk about hypotheticals, Talk about them all day long. I don't care what frame of mind this dog was in, he had intent and the kid was lucky he only had his pants. The dog wasn't giving up. ANY dog that makes that mistake is a POS in my eyes. An absolute piece of garbage. I have zero use or need for a dog like that. None whatsoever. There are so many better dogs out there for every purpose under the sun than what a dog like that brings to the table. Any dog that has that sort of intent towards a small child can go away for all I care.

now if YOU like dogs like that and think they all deserve a chance and all deserve to live and all just need training, then you better **** well know what you have and keep everyone safe.

Any dog that has that type of reaction from "play" at home is a dangerous dog. My dogs bite the **** out of me. They do, I can put on any equipment and they'll hit me like i'm some guy I just sent them to hurt badly. A kid that size could come up and put a stick up their ass and they'd move away. WHY? because they're good dogs, not pieces of ****.

anything more than a quick warning on a child that size is an obvious temperament flaw. Excuse it any way you want. it's a dangerous **** dog. Try to understand it anyway you want, it's still a dangerous dog. I don't have tolerance for that, and I have less for humans that want to excuse it or don't know how to control what they have.


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## gsdsar

SunCzarina said:


> This all prompts the question: if that were your dog and it took hold of a child like that, what would you do? Right then and there to the dog and afterwards?
> 
> For the sake of argument, DOG's leash is in your hand and the child ran right up to DOG and hugged DOG deeply. You didn't see it coming, child snuck up behind it.
> 
> .



It's a tough question to answer. But if that were my dog, the one in the video, he would be euthanized. What the dog in that video did was not stopped by a muzzle slap. That dog had 6 people tackling it to get off the child. I would be devastated. But my dog would not see sunset. 

I had one close call. My very first GSD. Off leash in front of my home, and my neighbors son called out to me. My dog spun and took off after him, I screamed "platz", the child took off running ( he was 4), I screamed "platz" again as she ran through the back of him and knocked him down, then laid down herself. The whole scenario took 4 seconds? And after the first failed "platz" I thought she would be euthanized. Crazy I know. But if she bit that boy, done. She did not, he had a scrape from hitting the ground. I cried for nearly an hour. But that 2 seconds of thinking she was going to bite, was all I needed to know my answer. And that dog in that video, whole other level. 

I love my dogs, beyond almost anything in the world. But my love for my dogs does not trump the safety of someone's child. And it never ever will. So I am uber careful now with kids and my dogs, I never want to make that decision. 

Side note, that same dog, was one of the most stable PR dogs I have ever had. She was an amazing SAR dog. Around kids a lot. And she never acted that way again. Don't know why she did that time. 

Side note, th


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## crackem

Gwenhwyfair said:


> First of all, David, your tone in explanation did not come across as dismissive to the seriousness of this event and well put below.
> 
> Put another way > *@ crackem* - Forensics is a part of examining situations after the fact and hopefully learning to avoid them (or in the case of crime catch the bad guy!).
> 
> It's _illogical_ to conflate analysis with condoning the actions of the dog.


ok, so what are you learning? you're looking at a dog with a very serious temperament flaw. I think that was pointed out in my first post. I'm sure this isn't the first sign this dog had that something might happen. 

If you have a dog that sees small children as freaking food, keep them away from small children. Gee thanks for the education


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## David Winners

crackem said:


> i don't care if people want to talk about hypotheticals, Talk about them all day long. I don't care what frame of mind this dog was in, he had intent and the kid was lucky he only had his pants. The dog wasn't giving up. ANY dog that makes that mistake is a POS in my eyes. An absolute piece of garbage. I have zero use or need for a dog like that. None whatsoever. There are so many better dogs out there for every purpose under the sun than what a dog like that brings to the table. Any dog that has that sort of intent towards a small child can go away for all I care.
> 
> now if YOU like dogs like that and think they all deserve a chance and all deserve to live and all just need training, then you better **** well know what you have and keep everyone safe.
> 
> Any dog that has that type of reaction from "play" at home is a dangerous dog. My dogs bite the **** out of me. They do, I can put on any equipment and they'll hit me like i'm some guy I just sent them to hurt badly. A kid that size could come up and put a stick up their ass and they'd move away. WHY? because they're good dogs, not pieces of ****.
> 
> anything more than a quick warning on a child that size is an obvious temperament flaw. Excuse it any way you want. it's a dangerous **** dog. Try to understand it anyway you want, it's still a dangerous dog. I don't have tolerance for that, and I have less for humans that want to excuse it or don't know how to control what they have.


I have no idea where you got the idea that I like dogs like this.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I would dismiss this behavior. I have posted to the contrary.

If you are uncomfortable discussing the dog and the possible motivation it may have outside of the context that it should be euthanized, don't. I think it's important to understand where this type of behavior comes from. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't presume to tell me what should be important to me. If you want to simply the behavior as "bad dog," that's up to you. I feel there is more to it than that and I was asked to discuss possible motivations behind the dog's behavior. So I did.

I'm glad you have good dogs. We're not talking about good dogs with good training and good leadership. You have an understanding with your dogs that certain behavior is acceptable under certain conditions. You have made that clear to the dog. That is not always the case. 

David Winners


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## misslesleedavis1

Im with gsdsar if that was my dog, it would put to sleep.

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## David Winners

For the record, if the owner of that dog was on here asking for advice, I would suggest having the dog put down if they weren't willing to have the dog evaluated and enter a serious behavioral modification program.

David Winners


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## crackem

David Winners said:


> I have no idea where you got the idea that I like dogs like this.
> 
> I have no idea where you got the idea that I would dismiss this behavior. I have posted to the contrary.
> 
> If you are uncomfortable discussing the dog and the possible motivation it may have outside of the context that it should be euthanized, don't. I think it's important to understand where this type of behavior comes from. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't presume to tell me what should be important to me. If you want to simply the behavior as "bad dog," that's up to you. I feel there is more to it than that and I was asked to discuss possible motivations behind the dog's behavior. So I did.
> 
> I'm glad you have good dogs. We're not talking about good dogs with good training and good leadership. You have an understanding with your dogs that certain behavior is acceptable under certain conditions. You have made that clear to the dog. That is not always the case.
> 
> David Winners


so, tell me what we've analyzed and discovered about this dog because all I've seen is some excuses while saying the behavior is bad. IMO a dog like that has no purpose, no use at all. If someone does, then make sure it is safe. I said that post number 1. 

I haven't seen any detailed analysis of the dog. I play rough with my dogs, I've played rough with tons of dogs, I've seen crap dogs played rough with, and NONE of them went after a kid with the intent this dog did. The dog has a temperament flaw. Explain to me what I'm missing?


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## misslesleedavis1

David Winners said:


> For the record, if the owner of that dog was on here asking for advice, I would suggest having the dog put down if they weren't willing to have the dog evaluated and enter a serious behavioral modification program.
> 
> David Winners


As a passersby what would you have done? 



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## crackem

David Winners said:


> I have no idea where you got the idea that I like dogs like this.
> 
> I have no idea where you got the idea that I would dismiss this behavior. I have posted to the contrary.


YOU was a general you. Meaning anybody reading this, if they think all dogs deserve a chance, then i'm talking to them. Not you in particular


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## David Winners

I haven't discovered anything about this dog. I made that clear. Lots of "could and may" statements in my explanations which were asked for. I was sharing experiences I have had with other dogs that may give insight to the behavior. If you disagree or don't think the discussion holds merit, that is your right. 

If this was your dog and you strangled it to death on the spot, I wouldn't blame you one bit. 



David Winners


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## misslesleedavis1

Baillif said:


> Lure him off with a cookie


I dont think that dog deserves a cookie. 

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## David Winners

crackem said:


> YOU was a general you. Meaning anybody reading this, if they think all dogs deserve a chance, then i'm talking to them. Not you in particular


Ok. Thanks for the clarification. I would give this dog a chance to show me what it's temperament was. I certainly wouldn't allow the dog to hurt anyone in the process. I wouldn't hesitate to rehab or euthanize the dog depending on what it showed me. JMHO, and I honestly understand if you disagree.

David Winners


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## Mikelia

I think that if the child had run up and invaded the dogs space, it would have been bitten in the face or hands. I agree with Davids thoughts on what may have instigated the dog. The dog was in prey, maybe the child ran by, the dog grabbed it and the screaming caused the dog to get over stimulated and excited. Whatever caused it, there is absolutely NO excuse for a dog to act like that. If you have a dog who acts like that, it should never be in public without a muzzle. Or it should be dead. It certainly should not have an owner like the dog in that video. 
What would I do if that were my dog and I had the leash? Depending on what collar it was wearing I would lift the dogs head up and twist the collar, or wrap the leash around the top of its neck and keep tightening. Immobilize the dog by putting it between my legs, take away it's ability to shake by lifting its head up and keep tightening the collar/leash until it lets go. If I was a bystander I would rush in and do the exact same thing, as obviously the owner does not know how to restrain the dog. 
I DO NOT recommend the average owner to do this. I have dealt with many seriously dangerous dogs and know how to handle them. I have a good chance of breaking a dog off its hold without getting bit. 
What would I do if I had a dog grab my arm with serious intent to do harm? Same thing. I was working with a rescue dog not that long ago who had a pretty serious bite history and no one could handle him. First time I had him out he did great, I was surprised. Things changed when I went to take his collar off to put him back in his crate. He grabbed my hand and I immediately lifted his front feet off the ground by his leash until he let go. Dog understood, I kept my cool, and we didn't have another issue. 
I used to work for a rescue who dealt primarily with pit bulls. I know from experience most dogs will not let go if you punch or kick them, hit them with buckets or 2x4s and they don't care one bit about water. You need to immobilize them to lessen the damage, and then make them let go. For me, in serious situations where the dog really has intent to do harm, that means cutting off their air flow if I can. Sounds harsh but you have to do what works. Calmly take control of the situation in the best way possible with the tools that you have.


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## David Winners

misslesleedavis1 said:


> As a passersby what would you have done?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Choked the dog off the kid and kept the owner there until the cops got there. If it were my kid, I don't know. I would definitely be emotional about it and probably wouldn't show much mercy on the dog.

David Winners


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## boomer11

A dog that chases down a kid and knocks it down I could understand. I can even understand if a dog bit and immediately let go. A dog that bites and DOES NOT want to let go is a whole different level. That's a dog with some intent. That's a big no no for me.


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## SunCzarina

misslesleedavis1 said:


> As a passersby what would you have done?


Try not to wee myself kicking it in the arse while I dug anything I had out of my bag to jam down it's throat when it spins around and comes after me. That's if I'm carrying the purse and not wearing my dog jacket where I keep the break stick and the mace.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Your mistake is equating a logical discussion with 'making excuses' for the dog.

Now you switch to 'keep them away for kids' as being the 'education' which isn't what is being discussed at all. 

You're deflecting because you thought you had 100% agreement from David and now that you don't you have a choice - 1) admit that your original premise (see first sentence above) was wrong or 2) Toss out strawmen and see if that works because you don't want to concede a point. Naturally you're really just digging yourself in deeper by going with the second choice.

Edumicated? 

See how that works?

Lol!



crackem said:


> ok, so what are you learning? you're looking at a dog with a very serious temperament flaw. I think that was pointed out in my first post. I'm sure this isn't the first sign this dog had that something might happen.
> 
> If you have a dog that sees small children as freaking food, keep them away from small children. Gee thanks for the education


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## crackem

so, tell me, what have you discussed "logically" tell me your conclusions. Let me know if they're different than my first post.

LOL as for strawmen and deflecting??? my original premise is wrong? yeah, the dog is a POS. I'm not wavering from that one bit. it is

anyway, thanks for the education


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## RocketDog

Geez. I'd go all-freaking out on that dog. I'd be punching the sh/# out of it. Likely right in the eyes and the nose and smack on the top of it's skull. I'd freaking WHALE on it: punching, kicking, whatever. 

Just thinking about it starts a burn in my stomach. 

I saw my first big dog get into a fight when the aggressive boxer (who was later put to sleep for attacking it's owner's grandchild and sending her to the hospital) behind us jumped our fence and made for my kids. Because I knew my dog was only protecting us, I didn't whale on him. I remember whacking him on the side and kicking him kind of by his groin. Nothing. But he had a hold of that boxer by the neck and wasn't moving at all-- just crushing it's throat. The boxer was yelping and then quit and started basically going limp. I had run to get the hose by then, I was lucky because it was the end of January. I had to turn the full blast of water into his face to get him to release. Big puncture wounds on the boxer's neck, but the neighbors knew they couldn't ask me for any money for it. 

If it were a kid getting attacked, though. Different story altogether.


----------



## David Winners

boomer11 said:


> A dog that chases down a kid and knocks it down I could understand. I can even understand if a dog bit and immediately let go. A dog that bites and DOES NOT want to let go is a whole different level. That's a dog with some intent. That's a big no no for me.


The thing is, there is a progression there that may have started in exactly the way you stated. First chase, dog is successful and it's self rewarding. Then chase and knock down, dog is successful and again rewarded. Next chase with a knock down and nip, followed by harder biting or thrashing. The behavior escalates because it is self rewarding.

I agree that it is another level. It could be another level of the same behavior however.

David Winners


----------



## David Winners

SunCzarina said:


> Try not to wee myself kicking it in the arse while I dug anything I had out of my bag to jam down it's throat when it spins around and comes after me. That's if I'm carrying the purse and not wearing my dog jacket where I keep the break stick and the mace.


LOL

David Winners


----------



## VTGirlT

Well it seems as though everyone is writing their own opinions and thoughts without filter, so i will too.

First, _I find it absolutely hurtful _ most of you guys say to put the dog down, maybe because my dog has fear aggression to strangers, and this video upsets me on so many levels, and I dont think my dog would go out of her way to hurt someone, i dont give her the opportunity to do so, but she would hurt someone if they pushed her threshold..

I find it interesting how most of everyone response is just about the kid and the dog. What about the dumb (put in a few swear words) owner? He clearly, knows nothing about management.. He is the actual problem..
If it is prey drive, which is what i was leaning towards after watching it, and i agree with what David Winners said, thanks for suggesting that could be a possible reason for the scenario. If it aggression, why is the dog around so many people in an obviously busy area? THE OWNER IS A HORRIBLE PERSON, he is setting his dog up for failure than! If i had to bring my dog into a busy area, she would have her muzzle on, and most people would stay away. And i would have her on two leashes and be on my guard for people and be verbal with them if they think they know my dog better than i do.

Lastly, to the person who said something about, "Why would you want to live with a dog like that? Or live like that, always having to manage a dog that can't control itself." I dont really know the person who said this, so please dont think its an attack towards you specifically, im sure there are many people who feel the same way as you do. But you might find my dog to be in a similar category as the dog in the video having to managed and unable to control itself, and my response is. Because my dog is my responsibility, because she is a great dog and i love her, she is smart, sweet, loyal, i have a great connection with her, i do believe strongly she understands a lot of my emotions and facial expression/body language and i understand her different barks and body posture for the most part- I've never had such a connection with a dog before. I would have to be apathy if i put her down for such a reason, because she is like family to me and i love her so much.. I can't even start thinking about putting her down for medical reasons, much less her fear aggression! I can tell you right now, that YES she is worth it to me, all the management, training, stress, money, life changes i've made for her, she is worth every single one. I hope you will find a dog where you would do the same for it, i'm sure they would for you..

I think i would go as far to say that Yes, if it came down to it, i would go live out in the boonies for her. Because im not the type of person to say, "Cya later, i'm to kill yo now, because i cant take care of you, because your simply too much for me, your too much management and basically you ruin my life and your so not worth it and your a 'Danger to society!'" I believe in true commitment. And if people did more often, we wouldn't have such poorly bred dogs in the first place, with bad temperaments. I work at an animal shelter, and i see it everyday, bad owners, bad breeders, bad temperament dogs, but such great potential- they get the needle. Humans, thats where the problem starts all the time for these dogs who get the needle, so sad animals have to pay for it.

And that poor kid in the video.. If i was his mom i would be so mad at the owner i would probably bash him over the head and after removing the dog from my kid.. Poor kiddo.. And i would make sure that dog has a new person who actually is a dog savvy, who is committed to keeping the dog and everyone else safe.

I've only just barely touched the hornets nest on this one in me.. I try to not comment on these types of things that bother me, but man i just cant on this one.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Normally I find you to be a smart, pragmatic poster here.

However in this case you are getting overstimulated in defense but I still don't think you should be PTS. 

That's my conclusion.




crackem said:


> so, tell me, what have you discussed "logically" tell me your conclusions. Let me know if they're different than my first post.
> 
> LOL as for strawmen and deflecting??? my original premise is wrong? yeah, the dog is a POS. I'm not wavering from that one bit. it is
> 
> anyway, thanks for the education


----------



## crackem

I still have no idea what you're getting at. Where has my position changed, deflected or created strawmen to construe anything other than this dog having a serious temperament flaw?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

@VTgirlT,

You dont sound like the kind of person that would put your dog in the position this particular owner did. 
Alot of people commented on the owner though, and alot of people have said yes if that were my dog i would put it to sleep, me included. I think it would take a very special commited type of person to work with a dog like this and those kinds of people are few and far between, judging by the way the owner fled the situation really tells me alot about him mainly he would rather not deal with a real issue. I doubt he is in the process of moving away from people to protect his dog but i could be wrong. You may have a gut reaction to this because of your dog but you manage your dog and i am assuming you dont allow your dog to shake the pants off of children in the street. Something is clearly very wrong with both owner and dog in this youtube video.


----------



## RocketDog

I just rewatched the video, this time not on my iPad. That dog pulled that kid's pants off. 

Part of the reason I teach and have taught bite prevention classes for grade-schoolers for 13 years is because of an attack that happened years ago here in Spokane. An intact male Rott and an intact female GSD. Attacked a 10 year old boy while he was walking home. Tore every bit of clothing off of his little body except his shoes. He had deep puncture wounds all over, required over 375 stitches plus reconstructive surgery. If a passing car hadn't stopped, with three male utility workers in it to save him, he likely would've died. 

I guess I get where David was going with analyzing 'why', but in the end, it doesn't change the fact that this particular dog should be euthanized. Especially with an owner like that. 

An owner like VTgirlT would never have put him in that position, but there are too many animals that are NOT like that to even think about risking the life of a child.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

How is examining objectively what motivated the dog to attack the kid is 'making excuses for it'.

In addition to providing factual evidence you have the unenviable task of divining the motivations of every person who has asked or answered that line of analysis in this thread.

Of course you're going to have to do this without imputing the worst possible motives or outcomes as you've done already.

But I don't think you can pull it off.....:silly:




crackem said:


> Seriously, does it matter what frame of mind the dog was in. It didn't matter if it was pants or a leg that dog was intent on keeping what it had. It was prey and there was intent behind it. It wasn't hpaay play stuff.
> 
> Keep making excuses for it, and one day you'll have to make more.


----------



## SunCzarina

The person who said why would you want to live like that was me. In response to this.



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Another ****ter thats due for a needle, I owned a dog like that. The only thing that kept it from attacking children or anything else was that it was more afraid of me then whoever the object of its aggression was. No fooling around with clickers or excuses control, control and more control.
> The dog was like that from 4 months old btw, only reason it was able to be out in public was "special" attention from day one.


To which the poster never responded what happened long term to his dog who behaved like this.

I'm also the same person who posted about having had a bitch bite a child that snuck behind her and bear hugged her. Not a serious bite or a dragging off of pants, but a bite non the less.

That bitch was wonderful too. She was also a liability and I knew that from the time she bit the kid across the street. Never to her family, my children were her world but she had a short fuse and she wasn't wired right. Genetic or caused by what happened to her before I had her, who knows. She lived out her life with me, it was a wonderful rich life and I miss her crazy wisdom. However, I don't miss the the management of a dog who's stability is questionable. 

So I get where you're coming from.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

The dog in question lives with a childless couple on a large property as it was useless for my purposes and a liability.

I have posted a vid of her doing some obedience on here before.

This dog was to the point where she looked and acted quite normal unless a stranger tried to touch her. She was also the type of dog that while being a nervebag that would run if her display of aggression wasnt sufficient also greatly enjoyed fear created in others be it people or dogs. 
-Had a friend that was terrified of her and dogs in general. We were hanging out, she was on leash she looked at him and he took a step back she immidiately moved forward and nipped at him. 
-Kids that had stayed with us for days about 6 yrs old that she had been on walks with etc. Kids just happened to run by one time and she went berserk and attempted to bite. There were other occassions with the same children and others.
-At IPO she was out and about doing counter conditioning was acting relaxed and ok. We were standing around, guy who was standing a few feet away walked by infront of us about 4 feet she saw him coming the whole way and at the last minute went for him. Didnt break the skin but almost got the jewels.

Dog was trained with markers, overlaid known commands with compulsion using prong and E Collar. Did alot of counter conditioning with food and toys, but in the end not much changed. Any type of aggression was punished and obedience was enforced with an iron fist. It was the only way to have the dog lead a normal life, went everywhere with me, lots of off leash time and exposure to environmental stuff. 

The dog was an offensive fear biter from 4 months when I first got her and onwards. Probably should have been put down but like I said I enjoyed projects back then.

Point being obedience can be used to mask and control the dog, but the dog will always be what she will be. She could have taken out a kid or senior some day when I took my eye off her and someone snuck up on us. It would likely have looked prey like especially if the target showed fear or ran. Its just what she was, a genetic mess. 
You can live with a dog like that if you know what your doing, but IMO its not worth the risk to those innocent people that are around you. You ultimately have the choice to PTS, confine, or manage. 
I think some more minor cases can be fixed or masked effectively but any kind of successful attack on a CHILD? That dog is finished in my books.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I have a dog now that has tons more prey drive now and guess what she loves chasing those same kids. They run around screaming and acting the fool as kids do. She has never showed any kind of aggression towards them or the multitudes of other children she encounters. Now if the kids were waving a stick or ball around she would remove it from them and probably not to gently as she is young and rambunctious but its not remotely similar to what that vid shows.

PREY DRIVE is NO excuse for aggression towards children such a dog has an issue that is genetic and can never be trusted.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

So lets get this straight Blitz you come here and say 'prey drive is not an excuse' even though no one has 'excused' the behavior of the dog.

You further go on to retell a story of a dog you had that sounds like it really had some inappropriate aggression issues and YOU don't PTS it?

The dog in the video may be unstable OR it may not. The only way to determine if the dog is 'unstable' is to have it professionally evaluated, unless you have some sort of divine gift.

Not *every* bite or attack is because a dog is 'unstable'. Sometimes it's because the owners don't know how to handle or train the dog.


----------



## Blanketback

VTGirlT said:


> First, _I find it absolutely hurtful _ most of you guys say to put the dog down, maybe because my dog has fear aggression to strangers, and this video upsets me on so many levels, and I dont think my dog would go out of her way to hurt someone,* i dont give her the opportunity to do so*, but she would hurt someone if they pushed her threshold..


You don't give her the opportunity to do so. Because you're a responsible owner, you shouldn't take any comments here personally. If the video showed that same dog in a muzzle, who lunged on the leash towards the child and that was the end of it, what would people think? Probably nothing. Please don't put yourself in the same category as this idiot owner, because you're a much much better owner and person than this. 

I know what it's like to have a dog that needs management (my 1st GSD didn't like children) so I understand where you're coming from. My dog was the greatest dog in the world, to me. He never got to hurt anyone, because like you I never gave him the opportunity. It honestly wasn't a big deal to manage him - as I'm sure you're noticing with Zelda. You don't push her and she's fine, right? Some people don't want to invest that much time, thought, and effort into their dogs. Or some people demand different attitudes from their dogs. It's all personal choice, and nobody would say for you to get rid of Zelda if you're taking proper care of her, and keeping the public safe. Just because she has some issues with strangers doesn't mean she's a huge liability - because you know how to manage her.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I've related this story before.

I was bit, unprovoked, by a 130 pound, lean raw fed male Kuvasz. 

I was standing with my back to the stairs, the back door was open to the fenced back yard, the dog was between ME and the door, he had an out.

I was having a polite conversation with the owner, dog walked by me, then suddenly without warning turned and gave me a hard nip in the stomach.

He was big enough and powerful enough that he could have done real damage but really the dog is a jerk. He thinks he's the king, his owner never really did anything with him, so outside of being conditioned to go into his pen at night and hang out in the back yard and with family when they are home he's not got any boundaries and he tagged me because he thought he would 'put me in my place'. After the initial shock I got angry because I didn't deserve the bite and he's just a jerk of a dog, allowed to be that way by an overly complacent owner.

After the bite he just calmly walked away, no growling, heckling or posturing, just 'I showed her whose boss' kind of thing.

He's not an 'unstable' he's a dog that hasn't had proper guidance and training. His owner doesn't 'push' him to do things either. He's actually a confident quiet dog that doesn't cower, bark a lot. He's a dog that has the wrong owner. 

Should he be PTS because he bit me?


----------



## Blanketback

You'll never see actual statistics, but I'd venture a guess that there are millions of stories just like yours. Unless you need to visit the ER, the bites will usually go unreported. And if the dog is under 30 lbs. then it's almost excused away like a bug bite would be.


----------



## Lilie

VTGirlT said:


> First, _I find it absolutely hurtful _most of you guys say to put the dog down, maybe because my dog has fear aggression to strangers, and this video upsets me on so many levels, and I dont think my dog would go out of her way to hurt someone, i dont give her the opportunity to do so, but she would hurt someone if they pushed her threshold..


I have an aggressive Golden Retriever. I can't even say it's fear aggression, he has so many loose screws. I can say he is unstable. No doubt. He is lucky enough that I have the capability to manage him. I live in the country. He is in a large dog run in a fenced in yard, with a hot wire on top of the fence. I do not take him out in public. If I wasn't able to manage him, I'd have him euthanized. I am a responsible owner. 

You are a responsible owner. You manage your dog. The owner of the dog in this video, is not a responsible owner. Even if this was the very first time his dog ever acted out (which I doubt) a responsible owner would not have slithered away.


----------



## crackem

and all i've seen is reasons "why" we should talk about this dog, without ever actually talking about the dog.

I've said all that needed to be said about the dog in my first 2 or 3 posts. There isn't anything else that's important.

do people understand prey drive better because of all this discussion??? LOL If you can't look at that dog and see the intent, despite the kid being very lucky, then I question one's ability to judge a dog at all. Aggression comes in many forms, it's root doesn't really matter to me in a situation like that. That sort of situation doesn't "just happen"

a dog with a temperament flaw like that isn't going to be "fixed" trained differently or whatever. 

A kid running up and getting tagged, yes that' happens (though still not acceptable but for different reasons) and is completely different than what this dog did and was doing. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Anybody with two functioning eyes should be able to see that.

a dog taught to play too rough or in a different way doesn't have that intent with everything going on around and too him. They may nip too hard, they may grab a shirt and pull too much, but will release, they may knock a kid down, they don't do what this dog did. ANd the dog did go in for more, the kid was lucky he had 3 people on him that happened to pull the kid one way and the dog ended up with nothing more than more pants.

So other than trying to convince us that it's best to discuss this video for all the nuggets of information that are going to help everyone learn and grow, exactly what did this video teach us that wasn't pointed out on page one of the thread?

Prey drive isn't dangerous, i promise I have dogs with more prey drive than that dog. They also have a **** ton more discernment about what is and isn't prey and if they ever had intent like that on a small child they wouldn't see the next hour of the day.

so tell us, what is this great enlightenment and understand we've all achieved from this "discussion" and what you'd do to fix this serious and dangerous temperament flaw in this dog?

an uneasy dog is a world more easy to maintain and keep safe than a dog with intent like this one. at least with an uneasy dog it's going to bite and when it has a chance to leave it will or if the handler comes to drag it away, it will go willingly. I'd hate to see what this dog would have done had it had actual flesh and didn't have 5 people choking dragging and punching it the entire time. 

you don't need an evaluation to see a dog with intent like that on a small child like that is unstable. I guess we have different standards. To many good dogs that are very "real", "hard", "civil" and any other term you'd like to use to denote what basically amounts to a dog that will crush you for fun with a reason will never go after a small child with intent like that. 

so yes, you are excusing it, because you think there just might be some legitimate reason for it and there isn't.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Good point.

In my case it was because the dog really did not intend to do damage. It's been my experience (and was noted by David about the dog in the video) that they do have the ability to control the severity of their bites.

So while my clothing protected me to an extent, a dog that size, 4 years old, intact, powerful could have really done some damage to me had he wanted to.

So even from big dogs, if they exercise impulse control with the bite, where it's like my case a strong warning nip, then it probably isn't reported either.

She contemplated giving him back to the breeder and PTSing him, but last I spoke with her she's still got him and is managing him. 

She admits she really messed up with this dog but has decided to manage him and knows he's potentially dangerous.

That's why what David wrote was very interesting. If the dog gets away with a behavior one or two times it's possible next time it will feel emboldened to escalate.




Blanketback said:


> You'll never see actual statistics, but I'd venture a guess that there are millions of stories just like yours. Unless you need to visit the ER, the bites will usually go unreported. And if the dog is under 30 lbs. then it's almost excused away like a bug bite would be.


----------



## Blanketback

Even if the child's pants were smeared in bacon grease I'd still have a gigantic problem with the whole sequence of events. Even if the child was being swung by the arms to provoke the dog to tug on his pants, I'd still find this video disturbing.

ETA: if you include warning nips, I'll change my guess to gazillions of incidents, lol!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The problem with what you're saying is NO one is excusing what the dog did. You're having to jump to a conclusion without andy factual evidence to support that because you're guessing at motives. That greatly reduces your credibility because it suggests you aren't being objective.

Fail. Pure and simple.

You have NO way of knowing if the dog is truly 'unstable' or not.

You simply do not. 

One thing is fairly certain, the owners were not capable of handling/training him else this would have never happened in the first place. 

Lastly, I think David has done a much better job, with just the clip from the video, to make some educated guesses, reasoning and suggestions. He's also got the experience and bonfides to back it up.

So it's also reasonable to put more weight on his opinion (and yes it was informative) then you in this case.





crackem said:


> and all i've seen is reasons "why" we should talk about this dog, without ever actually talking about the dog.
> 
> I've said all that needed to be said about the dog in my first 2 or 3 posts. There isn't anything else that's important.
> 
> do people understand prey drive better because of all this discussion??? LOL If you can't look at that dog and see the intent, despite the kid being very lucky, then I question one's ability to judge a dog at all. Aggression comes in many forms, it's root doesn't really matter to me in a situation like that. That sort of situation doesn't "just happen"
> 
> a dog with a temperament flaw like that isn't going to be "fixed" trained differently or whatever.
> 
> A kid running up and getting tagged, yes that' happens (though still not acceptable but for different reasons) and is completely different than what this dog did and was doing. They aren't even in the same ballpark. Anybody with two functioning eyes should be able to see that.
> 
> a dog taught to play too rough or in a different way doesn't have that intent with everything going on around and too him. They may nip too hard, they may grab a shirt and pull too much, but will release, they may knock a kid down, they don't do what this dog did. ANd the dog did go in for more, the kid was lucky he had 3 people on him that happened to pull the kid one way and the dog ended up with nothing more than more pants.
> 
> So other than trying to convince us that it's best to discuss this video for all the nuggets of information that are going to help everyone learn and grow, exactly what did this video teach us that wasn't pointed out on page one of the thread?
> 
> Prey drive isn't dangerous, i promise I have dogs with more prey drive than that dog. They also have a **** ton more discernment about what is and isn't prey and if they ever had intent like that on a small child they wouldn't see the next hour of the day.
> 
> so tell us, what is this great enlightenment and understand we've all achieved from this "discussion" and what you'd do to fix this serious and dangerous temperament flaw in this dog?
> 
> an uneasy dog is a world more easy to maintain and keep safe than a dog with intent like this one. at least with an uneasy dog it's going to bite and when it has a chance to leave it will or if the handler comes to drag it away, it will go willingly. I'd hate to see what this dog would have done had it had actual flesh and didn't have 5 people choking dragging and punching it the entire time.
> 
> you don't need an evaluation to see a dog with intent like that on a small child like that is unstable. I guess we have different standards. To many good dogs that are very "real", "hard", "civil" and any other term you'd like to use to denote what basically amounts to a dog that will crush you for fun with a reason will never go after a small child with intent like that.
> 
> so yes, you are excusing it, because you think there just might be some legitimate reason for it and there isn't.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, the video is VERY disturbing and having been bit a couple of times myself, even as an adult, it's very scary and can affect you. I had visual flashes of the Kuvasz big white teeth flashing right at my midsection, in slow motion, for several weeks after the bite. It's a very primitive fear you know? 

I can imagine for a child, it's many times worse!

Clearly, at the very minimum, the owners were really really in the wrong, from start to finish (taking off like they did).






Blanketback said:


> Even if the child's pants were smeared in bacon grease I'd still have a gigantic problem with the whole sequence of events. Even if the child was being swung by the arms to provoke the dog to tug on his pants, I'd still find this video disturbing.
> 
> ETA: if you include warning nips, I'll change my guess to gazillions of incidents, lol!


----------



## misslesleedavis1

No one has any idea what happened before hand, the dog could have been smacked by the child or they very well could have been playing and the dog got out of control. 

The dog could have a medical issue that caused it to snap and grab the child, or the owner is CRAZY and gave the dog a command to grab the child (its a pretty sick world we live in and crazier things have happened)


That dog looked crazy in the moment, ripping off pants and what not. The dog clearly has a irresponsible owner and if you have a dog that is like that, teamed up with an irresponsible owner then its best the dog goes down, or goes to someone that will manage it forever.


----------



## crackem

ok, we've ascertained you like David. I haven't failed on anything. This dog had focused intent on the small child Yes, or yes? if you can't see it, YOU have failed. His motives aren't even important because a dog like that with that intent on a small child is nothing but a headline waiting to happen. Unstable? yes to most of us

But apparently you have an excuse as to why this might be acceptable. So let's hear it. He needs to be evaluated?? he just was and has shown he can't discern a small child from something tasty or dangerous. It took 3 people chocking and punching the dog and another handful to keep pulling the child away from his jaws and becoming lunch. Honestly what more do you need to see?


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I've related this story before.
> 
> I was bit, unprovoked, by a 130 pound, lean raw fed male Kuvasz.
> 
> I was standing with my back to the stairs, the back door was open to the fenced back yard, the dog was between ME and the door, he had an out.
> 
> I was having a polite conversation with the owner, dog walked by me, then suddenly without warning turned and gave me a hard nip in the stomach.
> 
> He was big enough and powerful enough that he could have done real damage but really the dog is a jerk. He thinks he's the king, his owner never really did anything with him, so outside of being conditioned to go into his pen at night and hang out in the back yard and with family when they are home he's not got any boundaries and he tagged me because he thought he would 'put me in my place'. After the initial shock I got angry because I didn't deserve the bite and he's just a jerk of a dog, allowed to be that way by an overly complacent owner.
> 
> After the bite he just calmly walked away, no growling, heckling or posturing, just 'I showed her whose boss' kind of thing.
> 
> He's not an 'unstable' he's a dog that hasn't had proper guidance and training. His owner doesn't 'push' him to do things either. He's actually a confident quiet dog that doesn't cower, bark a lot. He's a dog that has the wrong owner.
> 
> Should he be PTS because he bit me?



This is a ridiculous comparison. I wonder how you'd have felt if that dog had drug you around for over 30 seconds, while you were screaming and 3 people were pulling you and one or two people were on the dog.


----------



## Blanketback

Gwen, it's not _just_ that the owner took off, it's the _way_ they did it. That dog was looking back, ready for more, with the leash giving it the room to prance and parade and have the utmost of confidence. *That* wouldn't fly with me, not for a millisecond.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Whether I 'like' David or not is not pertinent.

There's been times where I've agreed with you! Sometimes I let it be known and sometimes I'm sitting here at my computer, nodding in agreement while reading your posts.

In this case what I really 'like' is the objective reasoning David employed in addition to the fair caveats he peppered in. Plus he's known to have a good deal of hands on experience as a trainer/handler of dogs.

What you keep doing is trying to frame this as black and white, ignoring the caveats people keep saying because, I'm taking from your posts, that any dog that bites a kid should be PTS <if that's wrong correct me but that's what I take as your overall position.

I agree with David, based on the limited info we all have here, a professional hands on evaluation would NOT be a bad idea.

BTW- keep in mind that the dog 'Brutus Buckeye' (did you see that thread?) that dog had a history and mauled a 7 year old inflicting multiple bite wounds requiring stitches. If that had been my dog, he'd be PTS, period.

So it's not personal.

It's in this particular case I don't agree with you, 



crackem said:


> ok, we've ascertained you like David. I haven't failed on anything. This dog had focused intent on the small child Yes, or yes? if you can't see it, YOU have failed. His motives aren't even important because a dog like that with that intent on a small child is nothing but a headline waiting to happen. Unstable? yes to most of us
> 
> But apparently you have an excuse as to why this might be acceptable. So let's hear it. He needs to be evaluated?? he just was and has shown he can't discern a small child from something tasty or dangerous. It took 3 people chocking and punching the dog and another handful to keep pulling the child away from his jaws and becoming lunch. Honestly what more do you need to see?


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## RocketDog

How do you know crackem doesn't have a good deal of hands on experience handling and training dogs? For years?

Just because people don't talk about it all the time doesn't mean they don't. 



David is open about his life because it's part of his job. Others are not so open. Sometimes it's good to remember that not everyone is what they appear to be online.


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## crackem

no, i never said any dog that bites kids should be put to sleep, I said any dog that has intent like THIS dog towards kids this small should be put to sleep or kept away from society. Like I said, everything that need be said I said in my first couple posts.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh brother.



What part about


> *I can imagine for a child, it's many times worse*!


 From my post do you not understand?

Dang, if you want to play internet 'gotcha' you're going to have to do better.




RocketDog said:


> This is a ridiculous comparison. I wonder how you'd have felt if that dog had drug you around for over 30 seconds, while you were screaming and 3 people were pulling you and one or two people were on the dog.


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## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh brother.
> 
> 
> 
> What part about From my post do you not understand?
> 
> Dang, if you want to play internet 'gotcha' you're going to have to do better.



YOU compared YOUR bite to THIS VIDEO. What happened to YOU is NOT what happened in the VIDEO. Doesn't matter whether it's a child or not. 

TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. PERIOD. 

And wtf does 'raw-fed' have to do with a biting dog? Who cares how the dog was fed? Raw doesn't have anything to do with it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That's fine. I also agree with David, theoretically if this were your dog and you decided to PTS it, I'd would *NOT* criticize you for making that decision.​
Just don't impute motives when people discuss the 'drives' or state of mind the dog as 'excusing' it.

Tip....when debating or trying to convince folks of the validity of your point don't assume 'why' someone thinks something, it really does take away from your argument. Just sayin'.....you know?



crackem said:


> no, i never said any dog that bites kids should be put to sleep, I said any dog that has intent like THIS dog towards kids this small should be put to sleep or kept away from society. Like I said, everything that need be said I said in my first couple posts.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Now who is being ridiculous?

*I expressed empathy!! I don't give a flip if it was not expressed in a way YOU demand it should be.
*
Why is it you get into stuff like this with people on the internet?

I saw you got into it with Dani too.

You're always going on these off topic rants, taking things WAY out of context or twisting it to start a fight.

I'm not going to answer your question about the raw fed because you'd just misconstrue that too, it would be a waste of time.



RocketDog said:


> YOU compared YOUR bite to THIS VIDEO. What happened to YOU is NOT what happened in the VIDEO. Doesn't matter whether it's a child or not.
> 
> TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. PERIOD.
> 
> And wtf does 'raw-fed' have to do with a biting dog? Who cares how the dog was fed? Raw doesn't have anything to do with it.


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## RocketDog

You make no sense. You post something, I respond to how it is not even close to a valid comparison, so you 'straw-man' your response into how it's 'off-topic'. 

I think I'm going to look for that ignore feature someone just mentioned to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Please do....I'll help you find it if you need help. 




RocketDog said:


> You make no sense. You post something, I respond to how it is not even close to a valid comparison, so you 'straw-man' your response into how it's 'off-topic'.
> 
> I think I'm going to look for that ignore feature someone just mentioned to me.


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## crackem

so, then for the 5th 6th?? more time, what nugget of importantce did you discover from your discussion that wasn't revealed in the first page of this thread? What have you learned you can do differently that isn't blatantly obvious to everyone. What understanding have you gained about a dog like this that would make it safe? sane? stable? as if a dog that can't discern food from child and takes the intervention of 5+people to keep a kid from becoming lunch could ever be deemed "stable"

I'm curious to know


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## ayoitzrimz

alright alright settle down everyone


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## crackem

funny yesterday you're talking strawmen and deflections for what reason? I guess only you know. And today you bring up a comparison that has no business being compared and get upset when it's pointed out? Seriously, I'm certain even your got to guru david would agree the situations aren't remotely similar.


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## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Now who is being ridiculous?
> 
> *I expressed empathy!! I don't give a flip if it was not expressed in a way YOU demand it should be.
> *
> You asked directly "Should that dog be put to sleep because it bit me?"
> 
> Why is it you get into stuff like this with people on the internet?
> 
> I saw you got into it with Dani too.
> 
> You're always going on these off topic rants, taking things WAY out of context or twisting it to start a fight.
> 
> I'm not going to answer your question about the raw fed because you'd just misconstrue that too, it would be a waste of time.



YOU compared them directly. Asking if that dog should be put to sleep, like people were suggesting here. Your experience has no place in this discussion as it's not remotely similar. I don't recall 'demanding' you express empathy in a different way.


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## Gwenhwyfair

What makes you think this dog is 'cugo' incarnate?

For the 5th or 6th time what evidence do you have that this dog is really and truly unstable?

Why do you think your knowledge would automatically exceed that of a person who would evaluate the dog in person.

btw- Being facetious ain't going to get you anywhere. The only thing I was addressing to you was the whole 'making excuses' deal.

Other then that, the rest of it is internet flim flam.



crackem said:


> so, then for the 5th 6th?? more time, what nugget of importantce did you discover from your discussion that wasn't revealed in the first page of this thread? What have you learned you can do differently that isn't blatantly obvious to everyone. What understanding have you gained about a dog like this that would make it safe? sane? stable? as if a dog that can't discern food from child and takes the intervention of 5+people to keep a kid from becoming lunch could ever be deemed "stable"
> 
> I'm curious to know


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## Gwenhwyfair

Do you need help finding ignore or do you just want this thread to be shut down?



RocketDog said:


> YOU compared them directly. Asking if that dog should be put to sleep, like people were suggesting here. Your experience has no place in this discussion as it's not remotely similar. I don't recall 'demanding' you express empathy in a different way.


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## RocketDog

It's kind of like an accident scene. It's so bad, confusing and mixed up, it's hard to look away from a train wreck. The incoherence is fascinating. 

I'll get there, don't worry. Many people have pointed me in that direction.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Your desire to 'get people' on the internet does not = incoherence on my part.

Just for the record, I'm not taking it personally as I've seen you do this to others on this forum. 



RocketDog said:


> It's kind of like an accident scene. It's so bad, confusing and mixed up, it's hard to look away from a train wreck. The incoherence is fascinating.
> 
> I'll get there, don't worry. Many people have pointed me in that direction.


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## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Your desire to 'get people' on the internet does not = incoherence on my part.
> 
> Just for the record, I'm not taking it personally as I've seen you do this to others on this forum.



I'm not interested in 'getting' you. Not once have you responded to HOW your little bite in the stomach in any way equates to a full-on attack by this dog to this child. The dog in your situation didn't engage, didn't hold on, walked away under it's own mind. This dog didn't. 

You just keep saying I'm 'demanding' empathy. I never said that once. Then you have moved on to saying I'm 'out to get you'. 

Who's straw-man-ing now?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Of course you are, else you'd not be so angry and 'all caps' and twisting what I said in the worst possible way.

In blue, I haven't 'kept saying' that to you. I said it once but your trying to be dramatic, because, you're not really interested in an honest conversation. 

What I *do *keep saying is, by all means put me on ignore...I'd be perfectly fine with that. Put your keyboard intentions where you mouth is, so to speak. 

Here, I'll help you: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...desk/165847-faq-how-ignore-members-posts.html




RocketDog said:


> I'm not interested in 'getting' you. Not once have you responded to HOW your little bite in the stomach in any way equates to a full-on attack by this dog to this child. The dog in your situation didn't engage, didn't hold on, walked away under it's own mind. This dog didn't.
> 
> You just keep saying I'm 'demanding' empathy. I never said that once. Then you have moved on to saying I'm 'out to get you'.
> 
> Who's straw-man-ing now?


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## Blanketback

Barring the obvious - that what the dog did was unacceptable - I'd say that the owner was the unstable one. You have to wonder what's wrong with someone who'd think that just getting the dog away from the child was the end of the incident. Or maybe they had a fit when they got home, but by that point the learning opportunity for the dog was long gone, since the event was already a 'success' from the dog's POV.

ETA: people don't want to "ignore" if they continue to engage - it's just an easy insult. People who really don't value another's contribution to a thread either scroll past or dismiss the content.


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## RocketDog

And, again. No response to my question, no addressing how your 'scenario' applies here. 


I see how the ball rolls. And honey, I'm not angry. I apply caps when I feel that people have reading comprehension issues, the larger print may help.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, the humans definitely should have known better.



Blanketback said:


> Barring the obvious - that what the dog did was unacceptable - *I'd say that the owner was the unstable one*. You have to wonder what's wrong with someone who'd think that just getting the dog away from the child was the end of the incident. Or maybe they had a fit when they got home, but by that point the learning opportunity for the dog was long gone, since the event was already a 'success' from the dog's POV.


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## RocketDog

Blanketback said:


> Barring the obvious - that what the dog did was unacceptable - I'd say that the owner was the unstable one. You have to wonder what's wrong with someone who'd think that just getting the dog away from the child was the end of the incident. Or maybe they had a fit when they got home, but by that point the learning opportunity for the dog was long gone, since the event was already a 'success' from the dog's POV.
> 
> ETA: people don't want to "ignore" if they continue to engage - it's just an easy insult. People who really don't value another's contribution to a thread either scroll past or dismiss the content.



People shouldn't post scenarios or thoughts if they don't want to discuss them, I guess. Should they?


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## Blanketback

I don't see the problem though. Saying that they can understand how horrifying it must have been, because they've also been a victim, isn't an issue with me.


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## RocketDog

I think you need to read that post again. Describing the scenario as similar, applying to the discussion here regarding the video, and asking if that dog should also be put to sleep, isn't saying they can understand how horrifying it must've been. Yes, there was one sentence in there mentioning the child, but the last sentence asked that question.

Edit: Actually, in _that_ post, no mention of the child at all.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, 'honey', you're easy to read.....

Dang skippy I'm not going to answer your question. There's not one whit of honest intent in how you responded to my post or your 'questions'. 

heh. you - "I'm going to put you on ignore" huff huff

me - "Well, O.k. go ahead."

you - "No now I'm not because, because, because......." 

Here again: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...desk/165847-faq-how-ignore-members-posts.html







RocketDog said:


> And, again. No response to my question, no addressing how your 'scenario' applies here.
> 
> 
> I see how the ball rolls. And honey, I'm not angry. I apply caps when I feel that people have reading comprehension issues, the larger print may help.


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## Galathiel

I think it's crazy to get to het up over some posted comments. You can say you're not, but you repeatedly pick at it. Just ... move on and discuss the OP .. or be done. Talk about a tempest in a teapot! That's what this thread has devolved to. I found the different opinions (key word .. opinions) quite interesting. Why does another person's opinion need to be destroyed just to prove your own? I'm confused. Generic you for some of this.


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## Blanketback

It's an honest question since it indicates an unstable dog, either through prey, dominance, whatever. Would you keep a dog that bites a guest in the stomach? Ok, that's a ridiculous scenario - obviously your dog would be crated if that was the case, lol! That's something we all have here, an automatic sense of responsibility. Too bad that couldn't be applied to all dog owners across the board, eh?


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## RocketDog

I wasn't trying to insult you. I have a million ways to do that.  

I was thinking of trying to save my brain. Honest intent? I think I just showed exactly what your intent is here. Your post, and subsequent responses to my questions, speak for themselves.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks.

It's not that big of a leap.

Unless you're trying to make someone 'look' bad on the internet.



Blanketback said:


> I don't see the problem though. Saying that they can understand how horrifying it must have been, because they've also been a victim, isn't an issue with me.


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## Sarah~

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I've related this story before.
> 
> I was bit, unprovoked, by a 130 pound, lean raw fed male Kuvasz.
> 
> I was standing with my back to the stairs, the back door was open to the fenced back yard, the dog was between ME and the door, he had an out.
> 
> I was having a polite conversation with the owner, dog walked by me, then suddenly without warning turned and gave me a hard nip in the stomach.
> 
> He was big enough and powerful enough that he could have done real damage but really the dog is a jerk. He thinks he's the king, his owner never really did anything with him, so outside of being conditioned to go into his pen at night and hang out in the back yard and with family when they are home he's not got any boundaries and he tagged me because he thought he would 'put me in my place'. After the initial shock I got angry because I didn't deserve the bite and he's just a jerk of a dog, allowed to be that way by an overly complacent owner.
> 
> After the bite he just calmly walked away, no growling, heckling or posturing, just 'I showed her whose boss' kind of thing.
> 
> He's not an 'unstable' he's a dog that hasn't had proper guidance and training. His owner doesn't 'push' him to do things either. He's actually a confident quiet dog that doesn't cower, bark a lot. He's a dog that has the wrong owner.
> 
> Should he be PTS because he bit me?


I'm actually really having a hard time finding where Gwen said this situation was similar to the video?? 

I'm reading it as this is something that happened to Gwen where the dog bit unprovoked and was not unstable as an example to crackem of a dog that bit somebody for no reason but did not necessarily need to be PTS. I think this is a misunderstanding.


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## crackem

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What makes you think this dog is 'cugo' incarnate?
> 
> For the 5th or 6th time what evidence do you have that this dog is really and truly unstable?
> 
> Why do you think your knowledge would automatically exceed that of a person who would evaluate the dog in person.
> 
> btw- Being facetious ain't going to get you anywhere. The only thing I was addressing to you was the whole 'making excuses' deal.
> 
> Other then that, the rest of it is internet flim flam.


hmmm, what evidence? hmmm, if only there was a video of a large dog very focused and very intent on getting a small child of about 4 years of age, with 2-3 people punching and kicking and choking the dog and another 2-3 people pulling the small child in the opposite direction to avoid the child becoming lunch. If only such a video existed LOL

did you not see it? because if you did, you'd have your evidence. A dog that sees a small child like that as lunch is anything but stable. It doesn't matter if there was screaming, it doesn't matter if there was running, it does'nt matter if he ran up and hit the dog. That intent on a child that small is completely unacceptable for any reason. It's a headline waiting to happen. So many dogs with so much more will never in a million years have a reaction like that to a child so small. nor should they.

it doesn't matter if someone thinks it was play that escalated. If you do, that's your excuse, reason, whatever you want to call it. I think it's crazy because any decent dog that doesn't see a small child as food will realize after the first chomp or kick, or punch or when it starts losing air, that "hey, maybe this isn't a good idea" and a dog that can't, such as the dog in this video is anything but "stable" I guess we just have very different definitions.

Stable is a dog that can never be exposed to a child and have one jump off the 4th step and land on it with 3 more right behind him and she just rolls over and gets belly rubs. Try that same thing with an adult and she'd be eating lunch  a stable dog knows the difference between a 4 years old and lunch or threat. At least in my world.

If YOU think there is reason otherwise that would somehow give us some level of understanding that would make this reaction acceptable, I'd love to hear it. Let's go, you've had 10 11 pages of your discussion now and telling us all we should accept that, so let's hear it. You either have your reasons why a reaction to a child like this is understandable, or you don't. If you don't, how is your stance any different than the one presented on page 1 of this thread?

i get the difference between understanding why and saying it's ok. I said it really doesn't matter because the dog has a screw loose. Either you have the position that it does matter, thus I'm looking for reasons why? will it somehow make the dog safer? will it somehow uncross his wires and tighten the loose screws? will it fix a serious temperament flaw? Or you don't and just want to argue? Or you really feel that there is a legitimate reason a dog should have this type of reaction to a child this small? i"m still waiting to hear why?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, clearly you thrive on and try to perfect the 'art' of insulting people on the internet.

I must admit, that's not a passion of mine.

Perhaps you could try not being so offensive the way you ask questions?

I think then, you would save your brain.

Just a friendly little suggestion. 





RocketDog said:


> I wasn't trying to insult you. *I have a million ways to do that*.
> 
> I was thinking of trying to save my brain. Honest intent? I think I just showed exactly what your intent is here. Your post, and subsequent responses to my questions, speak for themselves.


----------



## RocketDog

Sarah~ said:


> I'm actually really having a hard time finding where Gwen said this situation was similar to the video??
> 
> I'm reading it as this is something that happened to Gwen where the dog bit unprovoked and was not unstable as an example to crackem of a dog that bit somebody for no reason but did not necessarily need to be PTS. I think this is a misunderstanding.



The discussion was about situations as _depicted in the video. _Whether or not dogs that acted _as such_ should be evaluated. Or euthanized. Whether or not the intent should be explored. Some felt that this looked for excuses for the dog, and might lead to keeping the dog. Introducing the bite scenario was a waste of time because it was _not_ anywhere close to the situation in the video, therefore it is not a valid comparison model to the discussion.


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## Lilie

Blanketback said:


> Barring the obvious - that what the dog did was unacceptable - I'd say that the owner was the unstable one. You have to wonder what's wrong with someone who'd think that just getting the dog away from the child was the end of the incident.


Perhaps they were just a coward and didn't want to take responsibility for their dog's actions. Coward, either way. 

For me, I look at a dog like that and want to know how it got to that stage. That dog could be any dog I own. But that would be placing the owner of the dog in the same mind set as me. And he just ain't there. 

I have to divide the dog's action into two stages. One, the initial bite. Certainly not excusable, but I can see the 'why' in the initial bite. But the 'hold' is what makes me nervous. The 'hold' after people beating on the dog to get it to turn loose.


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## Gwenhwyfair

If it were my dog, I probably would be PTSing as you would. I fostered a dog that was child biter and the decision was made, after consulting with a couple of trainers and a veterinarian that it needed to be PTS. So I'm not against putting down dogs that bite people. 

Why would you be against a professional, someone like David say who has experience with dogs like this, from evaluating the dog before PTSing? 

I'm curious why are you SO against just that idea? Is that you wouldn't trust an evaluation?

BTW you didn't answer my question about the 'Brutus' thread? Did you see that thread?

In blue, O.K.






crackem said:


> hmmm, what evidence? hmmm, if only there was a video of a large dog very focused and very intent on getting a small child of about 4 years of age, with 2-3 people punching and kicking and choking the dog and another 2-3 people pulling the small child in the opposite direction to avoid the child becoming lunch. If only such a video existed LOL
> 
> did you not see it? because if you did, you'd have your evidence. A dog that sees a small child like that as lunch is anything but stable. It doesn't matter if there was screaming, it doesn't matter if there was running, it does'nt matter if he ran up and hit the dog. That intent on a child that small is completely unacceptable for any reason. It's a headline waiting to happen. So many dogs with so much more will never in a million years have a reaction like that to a child so small. nor should they.
> 
> it doesn't matter if someone thinks it was play that escalated. If you do, that's your excuse, reason, whatever you want to call it. I think it's crazy because any decent dog that doesn't see a small child as food will realize after the first chomp or kick, or punch or when it starts losing air, that "hey, maybe this isn't a good idea" and a dog that can't, such as the dog in this video is anything but "stable" I guess we just have very different definitions.
> 
> Stable is a dog that can never be exposed to a child and have one jump off the 4th step and land on it with 3 more right behind him and she just rolls over and gets belly rubs. Try that same thing with an adult and she'd be eating lunch  a stable dog knows the difference between a 4 years old and lunch or threat. At least in my world.
> 
> If YOU think there is reason otherwise that would somehow give us some level of understanding that would make this reaction acceptable, I'd love to hear it. Let's go, you've had 10 11 pages of your discussion now and telling us all we should accept that, so let's hear it. You either have your reasons why a reaction to a child like this is understandable, or you don't. If you don't, how is your stance any different than the one presented on page 1 of this thread?
> 
> *i get the difference between understanding why and saying it's ok*. I said it really doesn't matter because the dog has a screw loose. Either you have the position that it does matter, thus I'm looking for reasons why? will it somehow make the dog safer? will it somehow uncross his wires and tighten the loose screws? will it fix a serious temperament flaw? Or you don't and just want to argue? Or you really feel that there is a legitimate reason a dog should have this type of reaction to a child this small? i"m still waiting to hear why?


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## RocketDog

Lilie said:


> *Perhaps they were just a coward and didn't want to take responsibility for their dog's actions. Coward, either way*.
> 
> For me, I look at a dog like that and want to know how it got to that stage. That dog could be any dog I own. But that would be placing the owner of the dog in the same mind set as me. And he just ain't there.
> 
> I have to divide the dog's action into two stages. One, the initial bite. Certainly not excusable, but I can see the 'why' in the initial bite. But the 'hold' is what makes me nervous. The 'hold' after people beating on the dog to get it to turn loose.



It almost appeared to me he wanted to get out of there while he still could.


----------

