# Is this a backyard breeder?



## Washu (Apr 20, 2007)

http://pjshomeandheartkennel.net/index.html

I am not looking to get a puppy, I just found out from my mom that Dooku came from this breeder. My mom bought Dooku back in 2002, then after I moved out on my own, my mom gave Dooku to me because she was moving into a place that didn't allow dogs. I never really knew about the breeders they got her from, all I knew was that they found the breeder on yahoo classifieds and she cost $500 on a spay contract.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

they are using their 10 month old male for stud already. i would say thats not a good sign. I also dont see if they have done any health testing. they might have, but its not posted.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Browsing the website, I would say yes it's a BYB. Though they do appear to have a beautiful facility and really care about their animals, there are lots and lots of red flags there. 

But that doesn't change anything about Dooku.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

shepherds, airedales, poodles...no health certs, no titles...


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Yes it is.
The sire is being studded at 10 mths.. which is like having your 6-year old son having a baby. They have multiple breeds that they breed, which always makes me cautious when looking at a breeder. None of their GSD dogs have been titled, no health certificates etc etc.
I would say this is a "glorified" backyard breeder since they have a fancy kennel building and fancy website.
Keep looking!


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

And I agree with Chris that regardless of them being a BYB, it does not change the fact that Dooku is a wonderful dog! My Cody is from a BYB and he is my absolute soul mate!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

http://www.geocities.com/petsburgh/fair/1901/chart.html

http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html

has a good sites to compare. 

Just the fact there was a spay contract shows they are way better than many breeders!

I personally prefer a breeder who specializes in one breed. There's more than enough to know with genetics for one breed/breeder, let alone adding the mix of 2 completely other breeds. I also prefer one that would rather spend their money and time getting some type of titles on their dogs, to show their breeding program is (or is not







) progressing the way they would like. 

For me, there are more than enough pretty purebred dogs out there (many many end up in shelters or rescues....) so my $$$$$ isn't going to anyone who is possibly adding to that. 

Instead, I choose to pay for a breeder with a plan and a goal for their breeding program (more than just cute puppies that they can make $$$$ from). And they are constantly keeping track of ALL the puppies they are responsible for (forever), are constantly tweaking their program to make it better and better, and you can see how their puppies/dogs are turning out in the goal they have. Whether in obedience, or search and rescue, police work, tracking, agility, whatever....

Otherwise, I can get a great purebred dog in a rescue and shelter and save it's life! Rather than accidently supporting someone who may be getting pups into those very same shelters! (NOT SAYING THIS BREEDER doesn't take all their dogs back).


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## Washu (Apr 20, 2007)

Wow, many responses so quickly. I was just wondering about Dooku's genetics and got the breeder's info from my mom. I was hoping I could get some insight on any genetic issues or health problems from the breeders.

Dooku is 7 years old, and weighs 70 lbs. And besides incontinence she has no other medical problems.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quoteooku is 7 years old, and weighs 70 lbs. And besides incontinence she has no other medical problems.


She sounds like a great dog! I'm guessing the incontinence is from her spay surgery? That's not uncommon and I don't think there a genetic link for that.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Anyone that breeds "Tiny" or "Teacup" anything is a BYB.


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## Washu (Apr 20, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> She sounds like a great dog! I'm guessing the incontinence is from her spay surgery? That's not uncommon and I don't think there a genetic link for that.


Yes, the vet called it Spay Incontinence. She takes 1/2 a Proin every night with dinner.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

yep my 12.5 yr old female had to take meds for a few years. She would do it more in her sleep than anything else.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wyep my 12.5 yr old female had to take meds for a few years. She would do it more in her sleep than anything else.


Is this something that could just show up after 7 years? Morgan has had a few accidents in her bed recently - 4 since November. Never had a problem before - she was spayed in april (may?) 2002.

I had her sample checked and the vet says there's nothing wrong.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, they can start leaking anytime after a spay, from a few months, to years later. 

Keeta has spay incontinence. I opted to not use the Proin, due to possible long-term health side-effects, and found that keeping her on a raw diet controls the leaking almost 100%. 

Another Raw diet miracle cure!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: SuperpupYes it is.
> The sire is being studded at 10 mths.. which is like having your 6-year old son having a baby. They have multiple breeds that they breed, which always makes me cautious when looking at a breeder. None of their GSD dogs have been titled, no health certificates etc etc.
> I would say this is a "glorified" backyard breeder since they have a fancy kennel building and fancy website.
> Keep looking!


Paivi - my favored term is "commercial market breeder"....way oversized dogs - 26 inch FEMALES????? Breeding coated dogs for all coat types, no pedigrees evident anywhere on the site....yes, nice physical plant - but is this breeding for selling pets and profit primarily or to produce dogs who carry on the type and character of the standard? We know the answer - this is the type of breeder that dilutes the breed and floods the population with dogs.

Also - the photo of the male was taken at 10 months old - but there is no way that you can tell how old he is at this point...you cannot even check OFA website to see if any of their dogs are hip/elbow certified as there are few, if any, registered names attached to their photos.

Lee


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## TANDB (Dec 12, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidYes, they can start leaking anytime after a spay, from a few months, to years later.
> 
> Keeta has spay incontinence. I opted to not use the Proin, due to possible long-term health side-effects, and found that keeping her on a raw diet controls the leaking almost 100%.
> 
> Another Raw diet miracle cure!


I've heard that grain could be the culprit!


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

*chuckles*







can tell ya that it happens in people also... not sure if their being "spayed" factors in, but certainly after menopause. That's why all those cute Detrol "Gotta go.. gotta go... gotta go right now"







commercials are on TV... Aging and hormonal changes cause it/


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TANDB
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: CastlemaidYes, they can start leaking anytime after a spay, from a few months, to years later.
> ...


Yes, I heard that also! But she still leaked on grain-free kibble. Even Orijen. So to Raw we will stick!


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## spikey1 (Mar 22, 2009)

I have purchased two Shepherds from this breeder and can without a doubt say that they are two of the greatest dogs ever. I did a lot of research before making these purchases. I have seen her facilities and the care that she gives these dogs, first hand. She has put countless hours of research into these lines, which has paid off in the quality of the dogs. Other customers, breeders, and vets have written her referrals. 

The picture of the 10 month old sire that everyone seems so concerned with was taken when he was ten months, of course he was not breeding at that time. I was impressed by the fact that that sire was the third generation of that bloodline that she has raised. She remains in contact with most of her past customers and stands behind her puppies. Pedigrees were available upon request.

I am thoroughly disgusted that all of you are so quick to chastise someone, when you have not done the appropriate research. I am embarrassed to call myself a member of a group with members like that. Because of that I will no longer log onto this site.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: katielizshepherds, airedales, poodles...no health certs, no titles...


plus breeding oversized dogs....stay away..


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

You know after reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that some of you people need to grow up. You have judged this person just by what you have read and never even visted the place or placed a phone call to talk to the people. It pisses me off to no end how quick some people are to judge others. Every dog we have now days came along due to breeding. Nothing is in it's natural form anymore. Maybe they just want something different.... which is how the German Shepherd came about. Someone wanted something different and you all now have the dog you have come to love. Think about it before you post and be a little open minded. You don't stop 2 fat people from getting married and having children just because there is a chance they will have a fat kid do you? The health risks of an overweight person far out weigh the risk of breeding a dog for a larger breed. After all, when it's all said and done I care much more for a person than a dog. 

I looked at the breeder in question and did not see where they were hurting your breed. There are a lot more people you need to worry about than someone who has a spay contract and has had this bloodline for 4 generations. Just because they choose not to enter their dogs in a working line contest or what ever it's called for this breed does not mean their dogs are in any way inferior to what anyone else has or breeds. The ultimate reason we all have dogs is for a life companion, not to show off a ribbon. If your in this for the dog to work and win you a ribbon then your breeding or buying for the wrong reason. If you need a toy then go buy a playstation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The German Shepherd came about by Captain Max Von Stephanitz (Sp?) wanting a dog that could herd sheep and be used as a war dog. He saw that Germany had some awesome sheep herding dogs and found some of them and started to refine the breed. 

He did not go out of his way to make something new. He took the best of the herding dogs he could find and created a standard and began a stud book and worked dilligently to set the type, always keeping the dog's working ability foremost. 

He began one of the best breed clubs and registries in the world. He had strict demands about what dogs could be bred, that included conformation, and herding and/or working trials. Conformation/Breed Survey, Endurance testing, Hip scores, Schutzhund are all requirements now for breeding in the SV. Many people want inports because they feel that the SV does a better job at assessing dogs for breeding and policing breeding than we do in the states with our AKC. They have a point too. 

The SV is a German Shepherd Dog registry. The AKC is an all breed registry, and too large to meet the scope of the individual registry, so we are comparing apples to oranges and must desist. 

The AKC does offer titles for herding, agility, obedience, Rally, tracking, etc., as well as conformation champion programs, Temperament testing, and Canine Good Citizen testing. 

I will leave Schutzhund out save to say, that it measures the dog's ability and training in obedience, tracking and protection. 

People who are just breeding dogs that are not testing them, and having them tested by an impartial judge, and more than one, do not have the whole picture. Your doggy might be perfect in your home and with your family, but be a basket case in public. They may be a bundle of nerves around other people or dogs. You as the buyer of a puppy are taking the breeder's word that his dogs are breeding quality. And breeders can be kennel blind. 

Think of Harry Potter's Aunt and Uncle and how they could not see ANY of their son Dudley's many problems. Dog owners are the same way about their "babies." If they notice that their dog is flatter across the back, they say that slope is bad, and their dogs are the original or some such hooey, making excuses and covering their dogs' flaws, or simply not because they do not see them. 

Good breeders have their dogs evaluated by others, train them and watch them through the process of titling to evaluate their character, notice their flaws, and breed to mates that are correct, where their dog lacks. This is called by some "improving the breed." I do not like this name because it implies that we are constantly changing the breed. The breed is good the way it is. But NO dog is perfect. We want to improve our lines. 

For example, we may breed poor feet to good feet to improve the feet. We then evaluate the litter, if we have good feet out of the litter we take another step.

Ribbons are nice. They say that the owner cared enough to get their dog ready to be shown, has a dog that can be shown, and sees the need to do more with this breed than pump puppies out. If a breeder is neither showing in some time of trial or in conformation, than the breeder is breeding pets for the creation of more pets. 

Two years ago, I was not against this. But seeing what goes into the process of getting dogs titled, and what people do when they show dogs in conformation, I have completely changed my views. Going the route of titles or championships mean that your are serious about producing solid examples of the breed you love. 

It depends on where you want to put your money. Do you want to support breeders who are educated about the breed and are doing everything in their power to produce healthy, good tempered, solid dogs, or do you want to support people who have a bitch and dog and shazam, now we have puppies, want one?


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74Maybe they just want something different.... which is how the German Shepherd came about. Someone wanted something different and you all now have the dog you have come to love.
> 
> The health risks of an overweight person far out weigh the risk of breeding a dog for a larger breed. After all, when it's all said and done I care much more for a person than a dog.
> 
> ...


Don't want to start a war here but I was appalled when I read your post. Clearly you need to think about what you are posting and where you are posting it. This is the BREEDING section of the GERMAN SHEPHERD forum, where breeders chat with one another about improving the health, temperament, and conformation of the breed and offer help and suggestions to people who are interested in obtaining a quality puppy regardless if it is for companionship or bound for the show ring. If you read the Subject Line of this thread, clearly the OP wanted to know if more experienced people thought this kennel would be considered a Backyard Breeder. Just because they love their dogs and have a beautiful kennel facility and keep in contact with puppy buyers does not make them a quality breeder. It's a good thing this was posted here and not on the Pedigree Database board, if you think we are cruel....

Breeding oversized dogs or coated dogs is not the worst thing in the world (although some may disagree), but it is not the best thing for the breed. They have a breed standard for a reason, and those "working line contests or whatever they're called" are there to make sure that the dogs fit within certain aspects of that standard. Females that are 26 inches are 2" OVER the standard size. As others have said, it does not appear from their website that they do any health testing on their dogs, and they do not give the registered name for you to research it. This IS detrimental to the breed! So many health problems plague the breed that to breed without doing at least hips/elbows is unethical. Perhaps they have been health tested and if so, that is great, they should post that info on their website.

I am glad the OP got a wonderful dog, and that the other poster was happy with their 2 dogs as well. Their females and their young male appeared to be nice looking dogs. I am glad that they love all their dogs and keep in contact with buyers and sell on spueter contracts. Their kennel facility is beautiful. But to the OPs original question, yes I would consider this a BYB or probably more a small commercial kennel, especially as they talked about the competitive puppy market in their about us page.

It appears that their other dogs are oversized too. I don't know what the breed standards are for Poodles and Airedales, but 74# Poodles?? I'm a groomer and I've never seen a 74# Poodle!

I apologize for my rant, but this one kinda hit a nerve tonight.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

Haha Sue, guess I'm not the only one writing novels tonight!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lindsay, Yep I am really windy tonight. Not sure what the standard is for standard poodles but we have a gigundo one in our obedience classes.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

Just looked it up. Didn't really have a listed weight on the breed standards so I googled it. Average size of a Std. Poodle is 45-65 pounds. Parti-colored (or the black and white ones) are disqualified in AKC but allowed in UKC. Airedales are 40-70 pounds, the ones listed on the site in question were over 70.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Lets look at it this way. Lets say you go out and buy you a new Ford Mustang. This car is great and will run 150 MPH. Do you run 150 MPH just because you can? Some people will and some will not. Just because you like to drive fast and test out your car does not mean I am wrong for not wanting to. You may want to put high speed rated tires on your car where I am fine with the factory tires that came on it. You may also want to put a high quailty radio and speakers in your car and I just want the factory settings. That does not make me wrong or make it a waste for me to purchase this car. Everyone does not want the same out of a dog. People are different. This breeder may not want to put his dogs to the test just like I would not want to test out my new Mustang. It doesn't mean his dogs are any less in anything but being tested. I am sure that when the your standing in front God He will not ask you what you did to better the German Shepherd breed... He will ask you how you treated your fellow man and the creatures of the earth which He put here for us. Don't knock the breeder for not wanting to trail a dog. I have tested dogs before. It's not always what it is cut out to be. In the end you have nothing but a bunch of ribbons and trophys that you can't take with you. The memories of that dog will far out last the trophy they won for being best of show or what ever they get it for. But you guys will never understand it because in the end you see yourself as above all others who breed and do not show. It is a sport... that is it. Everyone will not want to compete in it. 

Further more... The dogs from this kennel are spay dogs and will not be introduced into the breeding pool. They will have no effect on your dogs from here on out. Why fault them or get into a name calling war with someone who has no affect on you what so ever? You may have just taken a great pup from someone who was dead set on a dog from this kennel by calling it a backyard kennel. I'm sure to some over in Germany all the kennels in America, including yours and who ever else is on this foum are considered backyard kennels.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy this site for the most part. I enjoy seeing people happy with their dog of choice. The happiness a pup or adult dogs brings to one's life is not measurable. I am happy with my pup even if he is only AKC registered and I don't know what kind of lines he is out of. I did not go seeking a pup to show or train for attack. I went seeking a friend. I think I have found him. He has filled a void left by my AKC registered Lab who I lost after 11 years. No he will not retrieve the duck I just took but he will be my friend as long as I am his and then some. I have trained many of dogs in my life for their use. I have had beagles for rabbits, Labs for birds and English Coonhounds for raccoons. They all have been leash broke and taght basic obediance. The Labs a little more than the others since they were in the house from time to time. They were taught hand signals and such due to the job at hand. Each dog served a purpose. I don't fault any of you for training your German Shepherds to what ever level you wish. My faults with you come from the name calling and the thought you are better than others just because you participate in a sport others find uninteresting. My views may get me kicked off this site but they are my views. We have freedom of speech and you all have used yours. I have now used mine. If I offend you with my views then I am sorry but that is what makes us all different.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

One more thing I want to add before I go to bed... it's after 1 here on the East Coast. Once you call someone names or talk bad about them then you have probably turned them for life. Who's to say the breeder your talking about was not wanting to start showing his dogs and got on here to read and saw what was said about him. Now he is pissed off and wants nothing to do with your shows or this website. He tells a few friends and the next thing you know 50 people who may have started showing dogs now have a bad taste in their mouth for the whole deal. That's how I feel about it now. If I ever wanted to show dogs or compete I don't think I want to now since reading what was wrote about someone you don't even know. He may have the best thing since sliced bread and you guys would be falling all over yourself to breed to him or get a pup out of him but he remembers what was said and written for the whole world to read. Do you think your getting any of his bloodline to add to yours? I don't think so. 

This forum is open to the public all around the world thanks to this great thing we call the internet and now not only have you slandered his name you have posted his personal website for people to see the so called backyard breeder.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Does this breeder take a dog back if the buyer wants to return it?


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 Now he is pissed off and wants nothing to do with your shows or this website. He tells a few friends and the next thing you know 50 people who may have started showing dogs now have a bad taste in their mouth for the whole deal.


I don't think there is a shortage of people "showing" GSD's in the first place.









On the flip side, how about prospective puppy buyers who read this thread and start to become educated what a well bred GSD is. Hopefully, we can keep them from buying one that is bred by a BYB.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Perhaps a listing of makes someone a BYB as compared to a "real" breeder will help some of us understand what the controversy is all about.

IMHO, folks in here are quick to judge someone as a BYB when the accuser knows nothing about the breeder in question.

There can be little question why the AKC membership is in a free fall downward. If your dog doesn't have certain bloodlines or in favor with a biased judge, your dog is worthless according to the AKC and its rabid supporters. We all know that shows can be thrown based on who the judge is or who is payed off. It is a matter of fact - unfortunately.

Then you come to a form to interact with people that have a deep seated passion for a German Shepherd - regardless of whether it is titled or not - and folks take aim on those that do not agree with the majority of folks in here. It is a sad commentary that people think they have the right to label someone a BYB - especially when you know nothing about them and not willing to find out find about.

Even if a breeder can trace their bloodline and breeding philosophy back 60 years and to the "best" dogs (recognized by the AKC and UKC) in this country, most in here still call him/her a BYB. Why? Is it because you are quick to judge and do not take the time to trace bloodlines or appreciate the historical aspects of bloodlines? Or is because the current dogs have not been subjected to biased judging at a shows and are at the mercy of a judges interpretation of a given standard; particularly if you know, from the start, that your breeding philosophy is not in vogue now? Heck, I can have the healthiest and most medically correct certifiable dog in a show but if it doesn't "look" right to the judge, it's not a winner? Give me break. 

I really would like to see the criteria that most of you use - it must be an unwritten creed or only available to certain people - that separates a BYB from a "breeder".

I applaud those who are breeding for the health and improvement of the GSD and trying to eradicate sever medical/physical conditions that effect this breed. I do not applaud those folks who label others before knowing the facts.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thank you DOC! Someone else on here has an opinion different from the masses and is not affraid to express it. Breed standards are put together by human being on what they want a dog to be like. It's a good thing human being don't have a breed standard or we all would be in trouble. I am not like everyone else. I am 6'4 and 290 lbs. I would surely be cast out as an oversized human. My eyes are blue and my hair is brown. There is another scratch point. My shoe size is 15... well my feet are also too big. There is no way I would be able to enter a show. How about those people who meet and fall in love with someone of another race. Now they have children and they are not pure bred. Guess they are out also. I have no problem with you guys wanting to keep the breed pure.... as pure as it can be since it's a mixed breed to start with. I also do not have a problem with you wanting to show off your dogs or enter your dogs into test. It's human nature to want to compete. The problem here is if any one dog does not fit the mold of what YOU see as a German Shepherd then it's off with his head! These dogs were not put here to compete in the type test you guys put them in in the first place. So with that said who is to say he is wrong and you are right? He or she is breeding dogs to put a puppy in a home or a dog in a test. The same as most of you guys. He is charging a price for that pup just as you. He is getting checks done on his dogs and providing those pups with a high level of care. Nothing different from most of you. Who is to say that what he is doing is not better for the breed than what you are doing? Oh, that's right.... You are!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> I really would like to see the criteria that most of you use - it must be an unwritten creed or only available to certain people - that separates a BYB from a "breeder".


Fair enough. Here are mine. I typed them out a few years ago. Any breeder not meeting ALL of my criteria, I don't consider reputable (and that would mean either a BYB or puppy mill) and I won't consider purchasing from, regardless of their bloodlines.



> Quote:What makes an ethical and reputable breeder? Only those that meet ALL of the following criteria:
> 
> 1. An ethical breeder breeds for the improvement of their breed, period. They do not breed because they want to make money, because they want to experience the miracle of birth, because they think they have a dog worth breeding (according to them), because their friends want a puppy from their dog, etc. They breed because they have done enough research, exhibiting, training and competing to conclude that mating X-female to Y-male should produce dogs that express traits desirable within the breed (examples: correcting size, improving pigment, structure, working drive, etc).
> 
> ...


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## Lisa963 (Mar 23, 2009)

A: I've reported you for violating these wonderful people's privacy & integrity!!

" You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this WB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise volatile of any law. "

B: After SEVEN YEARS, you are deciding you have a problem with them? Sheesh!!

C: I have one of her GSD's and he is absolutely gorgeous!! He is healthy, smart and has the most wonderful temperment!

These people that you are trying to defame are the most wonderful and caring people who love and stand by their furkids for life!!

You should be ashamed of yourself!

and ps: I feel sorry for your dog .. it seems like the problem is not where she came from , but most like whos care she is in now!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Welcome first time poster. Please feel free to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you and your dogs. Photos in the Pictures section are always appreciated too!

In your reading of the board rules, you also may have noticed that personal attacks are not allowed on the board.

And if you read this thread, you will find that the OP does not "have a problem" with the breeder, her dog or anything else. She was merely asking more experienced people for their opinions on the kennel her dog came from. The fact that others answering her question and stating their opinions was viewed by some as an attack on the breeder, is certainly not her fault. 

I am closing this thread as it has now degraded into nastiness. If people wish to continue the discussion of what makes a BYB and what doesn't, they can start a new thread discussing the topic in general and leaving specific kennels out of it.

-Admin


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