# GSD vs Dutch and Malinois



## Marissa

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread so feel free to move if needed.

Im very interested in learning more about malinois and dutch shepherds. How are they drive wise and temperment compared to a working gsd. Do they have less of an "off" switch?


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## GregK

Marissa said:


> Not sure if this is the right place for this thread so feel free to move if needed.
> 
> Im very interested in learning more about malinois and dutch shepherds. How are they drive wise and temperment compared to a working gsd. Do they have less of an "off" switch?


 
Dutchies are commonly referred to as Mals with an off switch.

Mals are pretty crazy and yes, less of an off switch. Then again I've come across some pretty crazy German Shepherds that have reminded me of Malinois.


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## hunterisgreat

GregK said:


> Dutchies are commonly referred to as Mals with an off switch.
> 
> Mals are pretty crazy and yes, less of an off switch. Then again I've come across some pretty crazy German Shepherds that have reminded me of Malinois.


I joke that my female is a black mal. Stupid high prey drive. We struggle with the off switch. She's super lean and smallish (~65 lbs) for a GSD.

Someone told me when you have a litter of Mal's/Dutchies, you sell the tan ones as Mal's and the dark brindle coats as dutchies lol... don't know if there is any truth to that.


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## FG167

Marissa said:


> Im very interested in learning more about malinois and dutch shepherds. How are they drive wise and temperment compared to a working gsd. Do they have less of an "off" switch?


I had a Dutch Shepherd and now have a very nice (in my opinion) working line GSD puppy (8 months) and an adult in my household (2+ years). The drive is the same for the toy, I would say my GSD has better food drive. My GSD is pretty small and he is just as athletic and agile as my DS was. This will depend on lines/size of GSD I think. All the DSs and Mals I've seen are athletic to the extreme. My GSD is the exact same. He leaps, bounds, is wicked fast and athletic - I am having a blast with him. My DS was trained in Flyball and Agility but could never compete because he could not be trusted in the trial atmosphere (he was a nipper when stressed - which was in areas with a lot of people). He was WAY reactive. My GSD is fine in the trial atmosphere and is also excelling in his training for Schutzhund/IPO. I can take him anywhere, he's got very solid nerve and is appropriately aloof yet social. The flash of the DS and the Mals, I find, very attractive and appealing. Now that I've found that in a smaller sized GSD male, I am more than pleased and will never look back. Having said that, my boyfriend (also on this forum), knew the issues with my DS and is still planning on getting a Mal for his next dog. His GSD is a monster and absolutely enormous and would be called "powerful" not athletic or agile! LOL

My GSD has a better off switch by a long ways. He can actually sleep deeply. My DS was NEVER sleeping deeply. He had a "go lay down and act calm" command but he was always twitching at the first noise and barking if it happened again. Always on the alert. ALWAYS. He did lay down and we lived in an apartment and he did ok, so it can work, but the "off" switch is not anywhere near as clear as the GSD. The nerve is the difference. I have yet to meet a Mal or a DS with the nice, solid nerve that a good GSD has. That was the deciding point to me. I adored my DS but I will never, ever get another, or a Malinois because the nerve makes or breaks the dog, in my opinion and in my lifestyle. 



hunterisgreat said:


> Someone told me when you have a litter of Mal's/Dutchies, you sell the tan ones as Mal's and the dark brindle coats as dutchies lol... don't know if there is any truth to that.


In KNPV lines they are often mixed and this is often done.


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## lhczth

I think the best way to get a feel for the different breeds is to spend time around them. Most people are biased for their breeds so what they write may be very different from what "YOU" experience.


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## lhczth

> my boyfriend (also on this forum), knew the issues with my DS and is still planning on getting a Mal for his next dog.


NOOOOOOOOO, we can't allow him to go to the dark side. oke:


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## BritneyP

hunterisgreat said:


> Someone told me when you have a litter of Mal's/Dutchies, you sell the tan ones as Mal's and the dark brindle coats as dutchies lol... don't know if there is any truth to that.


Dealing with this on a daily basis, I can tell you that basically, yes, that is 100% true. There are some people in this country that are determined to "conserve" the DS breed (one of my best friends is one of those people), so they will rarely EVER do Mal/Dutch cross breedings. The problem I have encountered most with this is that these "pure" DS breedings don't produce much of anything but dogs that might make good Agility and Flyball dogs. They seem to struggle to get dogs that really, really have the drive and intensity to do the work, and often have less than stellar nerves. Also more frequent hip/health problems than I have ever known DS and Mals to have. 

The lineage of the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd is the same.. I don't know that there is a single DS that doesn't have a Malinois in it's pedigree.


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## ladylaw203

depends on what you want the dog for. I have trained and handled both for many years. My narc dog is a Dutchie from Holland. Rudie Pegge son. VERY high drive. One must be very careful with Mals, and Dutchies too for that matter, with regard to nerve strength. The dogs without an off switch do not have solid nerves. Unable to control that wonderful drive. I reccomend neither to a novice handler. 
It has however,much easier to find the retrieve/ball drive in the Mals and Dutchies for police work than it is in GSDs. Many of them working for police and military


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## BritneyP

FG167 said:


> my boyfriend (also on this forum), knew the issues with my DS and is still planning on getting a Mal for his next dog.


WAHOOO! 

J/K Falon, I'm a total GSD purist at heart, but my Malinois is pretty perfect!


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## Marissa

I worked with a GSD in USAR that was very much what you described FG167 in your malinois and DS. He would never lay down unless asked to, constantly searching, always in a frenzy. Absolutely NO off switch. Great working dog but very intense. He had Czech lines, very social but very reactive as well. I have been around a couple DS in USAR and I have liked them very much. Malinois I always jokingly would say were GSD on crack . Im not sure if this is just my experience of them or if this is pretty accurate. The only ones I have been around however are k9 units and in the vet clinic where it is a high stress situation. I know that you can get different temperments from every breed based on how you raise them and their lines. DS are a very interesting breed and very flashy. But Im very partial to working lines GSD !!


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## Josie/Zeus

GregK said:


> Dutchies are commonly referred to as Mals with an off switch.
> 
> Mals are pretty crazy and yes, less of an off switch. Then again I've come across some pretty crazy German Shepherds that have reminded me of Malinois.


I happen to watch all 3 in our club, and the comment above pretty much sums it up. 

The Dutch S in our club is simply a m a z i n g. His bite work is phenomenal, his OB is to die for, the love he shows for his owner is enviable. 

After it's all said and done, I still prefer GSDs. :wub:


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## Marissa

BritneyP said:


> Dealing with this on a daily basis, I can tell you that basically, yes, that is 100% true. There are some people in this country that are determined to "conserve" the DS breed (one of my best friends is one of those people), so they will rarely EVER do Mal/Dutch cross breedings. The problem I have encountered most with this is that these "pure" DS breedings don't produce much of anything but dogs that might make good Agility and Flyball dogs. They seem to struggle to get dogs that really, really have the drive and intensity to do the work, and often have less than stellar nerves. Also more frequent hip/health problems than I have ever known DS and Mals to have.
> 
> *The lineage of the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd is the same.. I don't know that there is a single DS that doesn't have a Malinois in it's pedigree*.


Thats really interesting, I had no idea about that. There are definatly a lot of similarities with physical characteristics but didn't know so closely related!


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## BritneyP

Yep - brindle Malinois. 


Honestly, I've known a LOT of Dutch Shepherds and really, truly LIKED very few of them. The ones that are considered "Mals with an off switch" are also typically the ones that don't work very well, either. Although, I can also tell you that we have probably about 4 Dutchies in our kennel right now and although the two young ones appear as though they will work out well (their sire is a black Dutch/Mal cross), the two adult dogs don't work worth a crap. They have an insane amount of drive, but want to do nothing with it, lol.. one of them is a nice detection dog, but he won't' do bitework and the other one is a jerk, not super social, and doesn't bite or hunt.


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## FG167

lhczth said:


> I think the best way to get a feel for the different breeds is to spend time around them. Most people are biased for their breeds so what they write may be very different from what "YOU" experience.


Definitely!!!! Jason and I can look at the same dog and see the exact same thing (our opinion on how a dog works/how its drives are, are usually pretty much identical) and then I will say "no way" and he will say "ooohhh I need that!" LOL 



lhczth said:


> NOOOOOOOOO, we can't allow him to go to the dark side. oke:


I keep pointing out how flashy and small Varda and Kastle are and he keeps saying "But..." LOL Although if Varda and Kastle ever bred, I bet he would "need" a pup from that litter LOL and they'd be pissed off mini-GSDs hehehe



BritneyP said:


> WAHOOO!
> 
> J/K Falon, I'm a total GSD purist at heart, but my Malinois is pretty perfect!


I started out in love with Mal/DS and now I am utterly in love with GSDs. The nerve did it for me, I will never work with a dog that doesn't have the nerve to trial. My DS was such a sweetie I was sure I would never find a dog that was sensitive without being soft that I could have a bond like that with again...and then came Kastle 



BritneyP said:


> Yep - brindle Malinois.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I've known a LOT of Dutch Shepherds and really, truly LIKED very few of them. The ones that are considered "Mals with an off switch" are also typically the ones that don't work very well, either. Although, I can also tell you that we have probably about 4 Dutchies in our kennel right now and although the two young ones appear as though they will work out well (their sire is a black Dutch/Mal cross), the two adult dogs don't work worth a crap. They have an insane amount of drive, but want to do nothing with it, lol.. one of them is a nice detection dog, but he won't' do bitework and the other one is a jerk, not super social, and doesn't bite or hunt.


My DS did protection. He had a lovely full, fast grip and was committed every time I sent him down the field. He screamed the whole time. It didn't matter if we backed off and did things he KNEW and was comfortable with, he screamed (while on the sleeve). 

He also screamed in excitement any time he was off-lead without something in his mouth. He SCREAMED the entire time he ran, every time his feet hit the ground - it was unearthly sounding. It is super common in his particular sire-line. He had INSANE hunt drive - I actually sold him as a personal protection dog based on a video of his hunt drive. Loved that, but I am teaching that to my GSD pup as well. I met a couple of his siblings and they were much less reactive, actually pretty nice dogs, that didn't work as well from what I heard.


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## DanielleOttoMom

Josie/Zeus said:


> I happen to watch all 3 in our club, and the comment above pretty much sums it up.
> 
> The Dutch S in our club is simply a m a z i n g. His bite work is phenomenal, his OB is to die for, the love he shows for his owner is enviable.
> 
> After it's all said and done, I still prefer GSDs. :wub:


I second what Josie has stated the DS is amazing. I love to watch him work :wub:. We both attend the same clubin DFW. We do have all three there.... This DS Loves to W-O-R-K! The Mals love to W-O-R-K! I too am looking into these to breeds now. However I strong suggest these dogs for more experienced handlers. I too will wait 4-5 more years before I look into getting another dog for many reasons. One imporant thing is that I want to be more experienced in being a handler. 

I will always have a GSD though!!


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## ladylaw203

BritneyP said:


> Yep - brindle Malinois.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I've known a LOT of Dutch Shepherds and really, truly LIKED very few of them. The ones that are considered "Mals with an off switch" are also typically the ones that don't work very well, either.
> .


 
with all due respect,you are obviously not seeing good ones. I have been training and certifying Mals and Dutchies for 25 years and trust me there are super ones out there working for police and the military. One must be very careful where they get them from however. My Rudie Pegge son is awesome. Rudie Pegge however, is a very famous Dutchie and is known for producing nice dogs


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## Scarlettsmom

I have always thought the Mal's were beautiful dogs, but now I see that we could never have one. 

This has actually been one of the most educational threads I have read on here. Seriously...Thank you!


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## Jason L

lhczth said:


> NOOOOOOOOO, we can't allow him to go to the dark side. oke:


It's okay. I'm not getting another dog for Schutzhund until Ike gets his 3, at the very least. One nutjob at a time.


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## BritneyP

ladylaw203 said:


> with all due respect,you are obviously not seeing good ones. I have been training and certifying Mals and Dutchies for 25 years and trust me there are super ones out there working for police and the military. One must be very careful where they get them from however. My Rudie Pegge son is awesome. Rudie Pegge however, is a very famous Dutchie and is known for producing nice dogs



I guess I should have clarified.. I've never seen one that I really liked that was a "pure" DS. We have a Rudie son here right now too.. excellent drug dog, too nervy for protection. 

I've seen quite a few "striped dogs" that I liked and some I'd even consider owning, but they are all crosses. some were out of immediate Mal/DS breedings, others had Malinois littered throughout their pedigrees. Rudie was bred to a lot of female Mals, too.

My most favorite dog we've had here recently was actually a Mal/GSD.. only 11 months old, nerves of steel, absolutely unflappable, excellent hunting and just a hammer of a dog in the bitework.


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## ladylaw203

If the dog is too nervy for protection he should not be a narc dog Weak nerves can cause issues with narcotic work too. And again, you are not seeing the vast number of nice dutchies working for the police. As a certifying official, I see tons of police dogs and many military as well. Rudi has produced a vast number of working dogs. They all cannot be perfect. There are many nervy GSDs out there,labs etc. It is not unique to Dutchies


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## BritneyP

I agree, Renee.. my point was only that Dutch Shepherds and Malinois are virtually still the same dogs. 

Not going to get into a training debate, but I see about 100 green dogs a year come from Europe and the biggest difference between the ones that make good dual purpose dogs vs. single purpose is their ability to handle pressure, confrontation & environmental stressors in bitework. 

Some really excellent detector dogs make horrible dual purpose dogs simply because they cannot handle what they may potentially see/experience in bitework.


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## BowWowMeow

I really don't have any expertise but since adopting Rafi I have met a number of people who own and train mals and their mals are really biddable, versatile dogs who totally have an off switch. I think there are a lot of poorly bred, super nervy mals out there. 

Rafi is an absolute dream dog. Not for the inexperienced owner but a wonderful dog for me and my lifestyle. And, oddly enough, there isn't a day that goes by that someone doesn't say he should be a therapy dog.


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## BritneyP

BowWowMeow said:


> I really don't have any expertise but since adopting Rafi I have met a number of people who own and train mals and their mals are really biddable, versatile dogs who totally have an off switch. I think there are a lot of poorly bred, super nervy mals out there.
> 
> Rafi is an absolute dream dog. Not for the inexperienced owner but a wonderful dog for me and my lifestyle. And, oddly enough, there isn't a day that goes by that someone doesn't say he should be a therapy dog.


 love to hear that, Ruth! Rafi is a Mal/GSD right?


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## ladylaw203

BritneyP said:


> a year come from Europe and the biggest difference between the ones that make good dual purpose dogs vs. single purpose is their ability to handle pressure, confrontation & environmental stressors in bitework.
> 
> Some really excellent detector dogs make horrible dual purpose dogs simply because they cannot handle what they may potentially see/experience in bitework.


 
I am not going to debate either I have been in the police k9 business for 25 yrs and I see more dogs than that,all breeds and eval dogs for police agencies when they call me. We have well over 250 dogs in our NNDDA nationals alone. If a dog does not have the nerve strength for bitework, the dog is not going to handle scent work well either in certain circumstances such as slick floors, loud noises/heavy equipment, engine noise, and a lot of other stress that we put scent detector dogs under. Bad nerves are a wash for police work. I have been a certifying official for a long time and yes, I see dogs that were trained for scent work that should not have been. Just because they have the drive and CAN be trained does not mean they are what most of us would consider a good candidate. I have had that discussion with many cops over the years about their dogs and had to point out that even though they passed a certification,their dog has limitations due to weak nerves. Most of the time,the single purpose detector dogs did not make it as patrol dogs because they have no defense drive whatsoever and are put into the slot as single purpose because the vendor is trying to spend as little time as possible on the dog. Turn them around.

And as far as mals and dutchies being virtually the same dog.. Well, that would depend on the dog and I do not agree. In general, I am seeing the Dutchies have less nerve issues than a lot of the mals coming over. Again, it depends on where one obtains the dogs. Many of the sport dogs are nervy. But that is true with GSDs as well. These vendors fly them in by the planeload especially post 9-11, My dogs come from specific folks over there that know what I want and what I will not accept

The other situation coming into play is the fact that between the military, police and the private security companies contracting there are thousands, yes thousands of dogs being picked over in Europe. It is much harder to find nice dogs post 9-11 because we are standing in line with tons of folks. We used to go over and haggle a little. No more. the dogs are in demand. Our dollar is not worth what it was either. So, I stick with my friends overseas and purchase strictly from them.


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## jeeharbor

The DS & Mal are a definitely different dog than the GSD. I started in French Ring in 89 with a DDR GSD. We made it to Ring II. This dog was incredibly forgiving and amiable for me being a novice/nervous handler. My next Ring dog was a Czech GSD. We got a Brevet and I pulled her from competition. She was an incredible PP dog... she was confident with a slight amount of defense. She didn't like rules being applied to bitework.... meaning trials. GSD's are as different as the numerous lines out there. I have seen the French succeed in FR with GSD's that were all about sport work. I have seen GSD's that would bite first, ask permission after. It depends on the lines, the dogs' nerves, type of drive, training and exposure. 

I have 2 DS, 4 Mals, my old GSD. I went to the DS because I needed "more dog" for French/Mondio Ring with more athletic ability to do the jumps and honestly.... an easier dog to train for the sport of my choice.

Both my DS can come off the bite field and immediately walk into a preschool and be safe buddies to all the children. My DS have "Lab" type personalities in their down time and Mal qualities that can be turned on in an instant. My Mal's are too defensive, on edge. They do not calm down in the house like my DS and GSD's.

My husband chooses to compete with Mal's because he likes a harder dog than I do. Choices in dog breeds comes down to experience, handler personality, lifestye.


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## BowWowMeow

BritneyP said:


> love to hear that, Ruth! Rafi is a Mal/GSD right?


I don't know. He looks like a mal in the summer and a gsd x mal in the winter. He is the right size for a mal and he has a mal personality. All of the people have mals or who trained with mals say that he is a pb mal for sure. He looks like some of the mals from Europe but since he is for sure from a byb in Ohio, i really have no idea.


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## BritneyP

ladylaw203 said:


> My dogs come from specific folks over there that know what I want and what I will not accept



As do ours.. 


I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, since our opinions (which is the only thing we're expressing here) have both been formed based on our own personal experiences. 


I'm a GSD purist anyway... love my Malinois, but I'll always prefer GSDs.


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## Marissa

What are their coats like to live with compared to a GSD? I know they are not as thick/heavy. Do they shed just the same. I have seen some malis with a fuller coat, are these different lines?


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## BritneyP

Marissa - 

coat type can vary, just like some GSDs are a little fluffier than others, some have very tight coats, etc. 

It can have to do with lines, but generally speaking, Malinois and Dutch Shepherds have much shorter coats than GSDS. It does NOT, however, mean that they shed any less, lol. My Malinois probably shed more than my GSD because they don't have the same type of undercoat that they just blow out a couple times per year like the GSDs. That's really the only time my GSDs shed. One of my GSDs actually has an extremely tight, close to the body coat.

The biggest difference you will see in Mal's coats is often times when you see what looks like a big fluffy Malinois. They are actually a separate breed called a Tervuren.


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## TechieDog

The DS's in our group are physically larger/broader than the Mals and do not seem anything like brindle Mals. I am very impressed with the DS's. They work very intensely both at OB and bitework. One seems to have an off switch the other not-so-much. 

I have seen some DS's that look just like brindle Mals too. 

It seems to be harder to get a really good DS than it is to get a good GSD. Mals seem to be all over the place but more common than the good DS's.


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## ladylaw203

BritneyP said:


> As do ours..
> 
> 
> I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, since our opinions (which is the only thing we're expressing here) have both been formed based on our own personal experiences.
> 
> 
> I'm a GSD purist anyway... love my Malinois, but I'll always prefer GSDs.


 

Yep. My opinions are based on years of training and handling police k9s on the street as well as certifying for police agencies. I am about the mission . period. 

With regard to coats of the Belgian ;Malinois, Groenendael, Laekenois, Tervueren. Over the years,I have seen only a couple of Laekenois at seminars. odd looking. Mals and Dutchies generally have a close coat. The reason they are imported in mass is that it is easier to find the retrieve drive that we need for scent detection training in the Mal and Dutchie. I love the GSDs naturally, but in general, the mals and dutchies are more agile and easier to find the drive. They also have a longer working life than the GSD. My 13 1/2 year old Dutchie bomb dog died two weeks ago. She worked until the age of 12. KNPV PH1 Met Lof. Very nice female. We see few GSDs working much past the age of 7-8. Retrievers,dutchies, and Mals just have longer working lives all things being equal. Just depends on what one wants.


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## ladylaw203

jeeharbor said:


> The DS & Mal are a definitely different dog than the GSD. I started in French Ring in 89 with a DDR GSD. We made it to Ring II. This dog was incredibly forgiving and amiable for me being a novice/nervous handler..


 
Love French Ring!


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## FG167

jeeharbor said:


> TBoth my DS can come off the bite field and immediately walk into a preschool and be safe buddies to all the children. My DS have "Lab" type personalities in their down time and Mal qualities that can be turned on in an instant. My Mal's are too defensive, on edge. They do not calm down in the house like my DS and GSD's.


You have a full sibling to the Dutch Shepherd that I used to have, if I'm not mistaken. He absolutely did not settle, could not, under any circumstances be trusted around children and hated to have strangers come up or pet him. 

My point? You can have a VERY wide span of temperaments/drive/suitability within one litter, let alone within one breed. I think everyone has made valid points and that the OP should make a decision based on who/where their breeder may be and ask for the specific dog that they want. I wanted what jeeharbor has described that his DS is, and I found that in a GSD - not too common to have a GSD that likes to fling itself about and has the athletic/agile ability like a DS. I was also used to the over-the-top drive ready at a moment's notice from the DS that I raised. Again, I was warned not to expect any of that in a GSD - and yet, I got it, I am so lucky


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## BritneyP

FG167 said:


> My point? You can have a VERY wide span of temperaments/drive/suitability within one litter, let alone within one breed. I think everyone has made valid points and that the OP should make a decision based on who/where their breeder may be and ask for the specific dog that they want. I wanted what jeeharbor has described that his DS is, and I found that in a GSD - not too common to have a GSD that likes to fling itself about and has the athletic/agile ability like a DS. I was also used to the over-the-top drive ready at a moment's notice from the DS that I raised. Again, I was warned not to expect any of that in a GSD - and yet, I got it, I am so lucky



I wholeheartedly concur!


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, there is a lot of ranting and raving going on lately, that Shepherds don't have the same qualities, that you barely find one that would retrieve copper, metal let alone hold onto it and that's the reason they switched the breed because "they've had enough of the German Shepherd."

I myself thought about getting a Mal, even bought one but turned out he's a little too much on the sharp side for what I wanted to have him for and sold him to the Police in Germany. 

I like Dutchies. I like the way they look. But the ones I've seen at the Schutzhund Club are not the ones I'd like to have. They definitely had some nerve issues going on. Now the Mals I've seen were all nice dogs and one Mal, AbbyK9's Mal... that is one exceptional dog, especially for what she's been through and with the missing front teeth. She is a DARN GOOD DOG! And that's the type of Malinois I'd like to have if I do get a Mal. 

More likely, as long as I have access to dogs like her:





I'll stick with Shepherds. Yeah, they shed, they don't work as long as Mals but if we'd all switch the breed because of that... where does that leave the working line Shepherds? Where does that leave our beloved breed? I'd rather stick with them and support those breeders that contribute TO THE BREED instead of leaving it behind and in the hands of those that destroy it day by day.


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## BlackPuppy

BritneyP said:


> Dealing with this on a daily basis, I can tell you that basically, yes, that is 100% true. There are some people in this country that are determined to "conserve" the DS breed (one of my best friends is one of those people), so they will rarely EVER do Mal/Dutch cross breedings. The problem I have encountered most with this is that these "pure" DS breedings don't produce much of anything but dogs that might make good Agility and Flyball dogs. They seem to struggle to get dogs that really, really have the drive and intensity to do the work, and often have less than stellar nerves. Also more frequent hip/health problems than I have ever known DS and Mals to have.
> 
> The lineage of the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd is the same.. I don't know that there is a single DS that doesn't have a Malinois in it's pedigree.


*This is so untrue! That is all I'm going to say. Don't believe it. *

I (DSCNA - Dutch Shepherd Club of North America) am working with the AKC to allow Dutch Shepherds into the FSS. We are only allowing purebred DS without Malinois into the registry. If you saw the two side by side, you'd know they were not the same breed.

I should add that 99% of the DS bred in the USA are mixed. That is what people see and people know in this country. (USA)


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## Mrs.K

BlackPuppy said:


> *This is so untrue! That is all I'm going to say. Don't believe it. *
> 
> I (DSCNA - Dutch Shepherd Club of North America) am working with the AKC to allow Dutch Shepherds into the FSS. We are only allowing purebred DS without Malinois into the registry. If you saw the two side by side, you'd know they were not the same breed.
> 
> I should add that 99% of the DS bred in the USA are mixed. That is what people see and people know in this country. (USA)


Thanks for pointing it out. :wub:


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## BlackPuppy

If you want to see what a DS looks like, go to my web page, and also scroll to the bottom to see my dog's parents.


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## ladylaw203

Nice dogs  Well, you must understand that some have limited exposure to really nice examples of the breed. They make judgements on that small group. True with other breeds too . I have been handling Dutchies and Mals for many years. I call my Dutchies, Mals with leather seats and chrome wheels.....LOLOL


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## Marissa

BlackPuppy said:


> If you want to see what a DS looks like, go to my web page, and also scroll to the bottom to see my dog's parents.


Your dogs are beautiful congrats!! Im not necessarily looking at getting a DS or Mali anytime soon but have thought about it for the future. My next dog will be a GSD and I have the breeder already picked out, but would very much like to work with a DS someday. I dont do French Ring or Schutzhund. I work SAR with my GSDs and doing other things on the side for fun (agility, rally etc). I was interested on how the two other breeds would fit into my life style. More so the DS. Sounds just like GSDs however, they vary tremendously. I have the laziest GSD currently with prey drive but zero hunt drive. Will work for his toy but at home is content laying around. I tell people he doesn't know what breed he is lol. I also worked a GSD that was balls to the wall 24/7, no off switch, extremely reactive and nervy. I guess thats why its always good to know exactly what you want when buying the dog


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## BritneyP

BlackPuppy said:


> *This is so untrue! That is all I'm going to say. Don't believe it. *
> 
> I (DSCNA - Dutch Shepherd Club of North America) am working with the AKC to allow Dutch Shepherds into the FSS. We are only allowing purebred DS without Malinois into the registry. If you saw the two side by side, you'd know they were not the same breed.
> 
> I should add that 99% of the DS bred in the USA are mixed. That is what people see and people know in this country. (USA)


I'm sorry to have struck some sort of nerve, Carole.. but what IS true is the fact that I have a lot of friends who own, breed, train and title Dutch Shepherds.. I'm pretty intimately familiar with the breed. One of my best friends is the founder of the North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue.


What sort of evidence would show the general public that Dutchies are not bred as mixes in Europe, as well? Truth be told, MOST of the Dutch Shepherds I know personally came from Europe and many of them are, in fact, mixes.

This is clearly a "discussion" that could go on forever, as most of it is a matter of opinion (I don't really care what people's credentials are and I have no interest in getting in a "one upper" contest), so I will politely bow out and go bag up some turkey necks for my dogs.


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## Stella's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, there is a lot of ranting and raving going on lately, that Shepherds don't have the same qualities, that you barely find one that would retrieve copper, metal let alone hold onto it and that's the reason they switched the breed because "they've had enough of the German Shepherd."
> 
> I myself thought about getting a Mal, even bought one but turned out he's a little too much on the sharp side for what I wanted to have him for and sold him to the Police in Germany.
> 
> I like Dutchies. I like the way they look. But the ones I've seen at the Schutzhund Club are not the ones I'd like to have. They definitely had some nerve issues going on. Now the Mals I've seen were all nice dogs and one Mal, AbbyK9's Mal... that is one exceptional dog, especially for what she's been through and with the missing front teeth. She is a DARN GOOD DOG! And that's the type of Malinois I'd like to have if I do get a Mal.
> 
> More likely, as long as I have access to dogs like her:
> Nala and the Copper Pipe - YouTube
> 
> I'll stick with Shepherds. Yeah, they shed, they don't work as long as Mals but if we'd all switch the breed because of that... where does that leave the working line Shepherds? Where does that leave our beloved breed? I'd rather stick with them and support those breeders that contribute TO THE BREED instead of leaving it behind and in the hands of those that destroy it day by day.



Great point!


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## Mrs.K

BritneyP said:


> I'm sorry to have struck some sort of nerve, Carole.. but what IS true is the fact that I have a lot of friends who own, breed, train and title Dutch Shepherds.. I'm pretty intimately familiar with the breed. One of my best friends is the founder of the North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue.
> 
> 
> What sort of evidence would show the general public that Dutchies are not bred as mixes in Europe, as well? Truth be told, MOST of the Dutch Shepherds I know personally came from Europe and many of them are, in fact, mixes.
> 
> This is clearly a "discussion" that could go on forever, as most of it is a matter of opinion (I don't really care what people's credentials are and I have no interest in getting in a "one upper" contest), so I will politely bow out and go bag up some turkey necks for my dogs.



Britney... not sure if I said it before. But a lot of what is coming out of Europe to the US is the garbage. If they can get rid of it by selling it to the US for good money, they will sell it because Americans pay for it. 

It's just like with the Quarter Horses and Germany. What isn't good enough, is sold to Europe. It's just the way it is.


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## Marissa

Who ARE the good breeders for DS if I decide to ever go that route? I would prefer not to ship overseas....


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## ladylaw203

But a lot of what is coming out of Europe to the US is the garbage. If they can get rid of it by selling it to the US for good money, they will sell it because Americans pay for it.




Exactly. Been that way for 30 years that I know of. That is why we have to be careful with all breeds that we import and know the folks well that are choosing the dogs or we go ourselves. America has always had deep pockets.


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## holland

Sorry I am always off topic-but I got side tracked by the Belgian lakenois-looks like a large terrier-that is so cool-what are they like?


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## Marissa

Anyone on good breeders?


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## GregK

http://www.foxtal.com/

I'm not sure if she's currently breeding or not but this is where I got my wonderful girl!


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## TechieDog

Try Vrijheid Dutch Shepherds


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## Marissa

TechieDog said:


> Try Vrijheid Dutch Shepherds


Beautiful kennels. Had this one recommended to me by a wonderful DS handler, and her dogs are beautiful. Glad to see others like it as well :thumbsup:


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## Marissa

FoxTal's website is WAY out of date....


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## TechieDog

Marissa said:


> Beautiful kennels. Had this one recommended to me by a wonderful DS handler, and her dogs are beautiful. Glad to see others like it as well :thumbsup:


There is a dog in our group from Vrijheid that is super nice. I'd talk with them if I were looking for a DS.


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## GregK

Marissa said:


> FoxTal's website is WAY out of date....


 
I know. I'll find out for ya.


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## Marissa

TechieDog said:


> There is a dog in our group from Vrijheid that is super nice. I'd talk with them if I were looking for a DS.


That seems to be the best one that I have come across. Sounds like the woman is very good at placing the right dog with the right handler. Thats very important to me


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## GregK

FoxTal is still breeding. Shoot her an e-mail. I know Deb's not very good about the website stuff.

Also know of another possible breeding. My girl's littermate. She has insane drive!!!


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## FG167

TechieDog said:


> Try Vrijheid Dutch Shepherds





GregK said:


> http://www.foxtal.com/


Both are excellent.



Marissa said:


> That seems to be the best one that I have come across. Sounds like the woman is very good at placing the right dog with the right handler. Thats very important to me


I really like Asheley, she is super nice and I would trust her to place a dog in the right home.


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## BritneyP

FG167 said:


> Both are excellent.
> 
> 
> 
> I really like Asheley, she is super nice and I would trust her to place a dog in the right home.



Asheley is great and she does have nice dogs.. I've met a lot of them. Not over the top, but they have good, stable temperaments and make good pets as well.


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## Marissa

Thanks guys. I have really enjoyed this thread. Learned a lot!!


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## BlackPuppy

BritneyP said:


> What sort of evidence would show the general public that Dutchies are not bred as mixes in Europe, as well? Truth be told, MOST of the Dutch Shepherds I know personally came from Europe and many of them are, in fact, mixes.


Sorry, I thought this thread died. I keep looking for new posts and found none until now. 

The mixes from Europe are KNPV. The KNPV even has a pedigree database, but they don't care what breeds go into the dog. Landelijk - Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging These are what are coming over to the USA because there's a market for them and Americans will pay a lot of money for a dog. 

Sadly, this has caused a decline in actual purebred Dutch Shepherds. The Dutch (HH) breed club, NHC is promoting the breed and encouraging breeding among owners to keep it from going extinct. Actueel NHC There are some really nice photos on their websites of actual Dutch Shepherds. 

If you are talking about Christie. I have been to her place and met her dogs. Her foundation dogs are really nice. But I don't know their bloodlines. 

I recently fostered a rescue for the NADSR and was very sad for the dog. It was bred with no regard at all for conformation, just drive. It loved to play fetch and had great drive for that. It was a little nervous, but it had just spent a week in a kennel. The thing that I found sad was it's conformation. It was taller than long by about 3 inches, and for a mature dog it was very skinny. I guessed that it was around 6 years old, but had the body of a 18 month old (with super long legs). Thing is, he was so affectionate he was irresistible! 

Most of the DS breeders in the US are selling dogs like this and making big money.  There are a few good breeders if you want over the top drive.  But, sport people would rather have than.

Both my Laekenois and my Dutch Shepherd are from Europe. They are breed in homes. The breed club encourages anybody with a dog that meets it's strict breeding guide lines to breed their dogs. A lot of Americans might call them BYB, but breeding is regulated by the Breed Club. If you don't meet their requirements, the dogs will not be registered.


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## Marissa

Thanks for sharing the rescue with me. I may look into fostering


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