# Black and Tan VS. Liver and Tan



## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

I have one puppy out of a litter of four that had a distinctly different coat color than the rest that has become more distinct as he ages. They are now five weeks old and I want a second opinion on whether this puppy would be considered liver and tan or is simply a light colored black and tan. Sire is black and tan and Dam is black and red. Let me know what you think.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

From the picture, the pup seems to have a black nose and dark eyes so I would say it is just another variation of the black/tan.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I agree with Lisa, that puppy is definitely not liver. Liver affects all the black in the dog so even their nose will be liver. The pup just looks to be a different shade, now blue is the dilution of black but he still doesn't look like that in this picture. As their noses will be a blue/grey. 

These are liver/tan pups:


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

What color are the parents and grand parents? Possible Sable?? Or just a different marking of Black and Tan.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

are you sure about the parents .

different size, bone, coat and colour?

could there be a dilution factor for blue be present?

black and tan is black and tan whether it is mahogany, "red" , fawn - brown .

is dna parentage check available to you? females can produce offspring from more than one sire in one litter.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I think he looks like a sable.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Is he the only long coat?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess is black and tan. Could be the others will be blanket black and tans, and this will be a long coat saddle-back.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

selzer said:


> My guess is black and tan. Could be the others will be blanket black and tans, and this will be a long coat saddle-back.


That's a good observation, with my pups I did notice the long coat pups took on a bit of a different tinge to their coats until they puppy fuzz left. It wasn't as notable as here though.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

KaiserAus said:


> I think he looks like a sable.


At this age a sable would be mostly tan with a very prominent black dorsal stripe.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Cschmidt88 said:


> At this age a sable would be mostly tan with a very prominent black dorsal stripe.



not necessarily. 









After this, he went completely blonde, with only a small chevron of black on his tail.









and then eventually his adult color


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I sort of thought sable also . That is why I recommended checking paternity on this pup.

easy to do . Get the DNA kit for paternity https://vetdnacenter.com 

you will submit a cheek swab for expected sire , actual dam , and subject pup.

if there is another male hanging around take his sample as well.

state your intentions to the lab so that you get the appropriate number of kits

while you are at it you may as well get their DM kits

they will then either include or exclude the male as being the sire . 

as far as sable the OP stated both parents were black and tan .

it doesn't matter if the black and tan has any sable ancestry . HE / SHE is not sable
so can NOT produce sable . 

the pup looks so different from the littermates - reminds me of a cuckoo in the next

nice looking pup though


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## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

I am 100% certain the sire was the only sire present when the dam was is estrus so there is no possibility of multiple sires. Two of the pups look like they will inherit the dam's long coat and two others look like they will have sire's short coat, but the other long coated puppy is just as black as the other puppies and both mom and dad. I agree the nose pigment and eye color don't align with liver coated puppies and that's what is throwing me off. There is no sable in either the Sire or Dam's pedigree. All are registered as black and tan or black and red. This pair has had two previous litters and I have never seen this color variation before. I'm thinking I'm just going to have to DNA test everyone. Here are some pictures of sire and dam so you have more to go on. The last picture shows them together so you can see the difference in pigment.


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## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

Here is some more puppy pics to get a better idea.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The top photo the puppy does look liver, but he doesn't have the other liver features. How old are they?


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## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

In these pictures they were five weeks old. They are almost six weeks old now.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sire and dam certainly look like well kept healthy animals .

does look like some dilution factor - either liver or blue .

I think the Vet diagnostics link I provided can also do "colour" 

pups do look nice and healthy also.


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## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

carmspack said:


> sire and dam certainly look like well kept healthy animals .
> 
> does look like some dilution factor - either liver or blue .
> 
> ...



Thank you! I am definitely going to do some genetic testing on the sire, dam and pups. I have been meaning to anyway and this puppy just gives me an excuse to do so. Again thank you for the input! I'll post the results of the DNA test as soon as it comes in.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Are you sure he is one of your puppies and hasn't just wandered in off the street, lol - he is much bigger and different to the others, hahahaha


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> not necessarily.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you have a picture to share that actually shows the whole pattern when young? That picture doesn't disprove the stripe thing, I would be super fascinated to see because every sable I've seen has had it.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

It just looks like black/tan but with a different coat type to me, there cannot be any black pigment in the dog (nose, pads,etc) if the dilute or liver gene is present. But I would be curious how it could affect the coat mildly if she carries for those genes. That would be interesting to test for! 

Some of my solid black pups had more of a brownish tinge until they lost their puppy fuzz. Not the best pic but here's one example:









And a solid black stock coat puppy where you can see the brownish tinged puppy fuzz versus the definite black adult coat coming in.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Your puppy is black and tan. I have a coatie right now and have three stock coated siblings. The stock coats are black black black, while my coatie has a brown coat. It's just kinda "sunburned" looking. She'll be black and tan once that fuzz is gone.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Luna coat was very dark and then all that fuzz looked became the same sunburned color. Her coat once again looked rich in pigment once all that puppy fuzz left. She is a stock coat.


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## britsGSD (Jun 2, 2017)

Cschmidt88 said:


> It just looks like black/tan but with a different coat type to me, there cannot be any black pigment in the dog (nose, pads,etc) if the dilute or liver gene is present. But I would be curious how it could affect the coat mildly if she carries for those genes. That would be interesting to test for!
> 
> Some of my solid black pups had more of a brownish tinge until they lost their puppy fuzz. Not the best pic but here's one example:
> 
> ...


This looks very close to the pigment in the puppy; Mostly black with hints of brown and rust especially in the sun. I am curious to see how it turns out. He stands out so much against the other pups.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Cschmidt88 said:


> Do you have a picture to share that actually shows the whole pattern when young? That picture doesn't disprove the stripe thing, I would be super fascinated to see because every sable I've seen has had it.


Sorry, I don't mean to derail the OP but here is my sable... he didn't get that dark stripe that you show for your sables.

He was more pale all over, then got a little dark triangle and then started getting darker all over.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

KaiserAus said:


> Sorry, I don't mean to derail the OP but here is my sable... he didn't get that dark stripe that you show for your sables.
> 
> He was more pale all over, then got a little dark triangle and then started getting darker all over.


You can see the black stripe in the pictures you posted, it's just faint due to the pigment not being as strong and he is not as young as they are in those pics. The pups I posted are very darkly pigmented sables.  He's also closer to the solid tan phase in those pictures, the puppies I posted were 5/6 weeks old. They're currently in that phase where they look mostly tan too. The pup originally posted is younger, which is why I used the younger comparison. ^_^ 

Here's what the darkest of those puppies I posted looks like now:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Cschmidt88 said:


> You can see the black stripe in the pictures you posted, it's just faint due to the pigment not being as strong and he is not as young as they are in those pics. The pups I posted are very darkly pigmented sables.  He's also closer to the solid tan phase in those pictures, the puppies I posted were 5/6 weeks old. They're currently in that phase where they look mostly tan too. The pup originally posted is younger, which is why I used the younger comparison. ^_^
> 
> ]


my sable pup never went through a young phase where he had a black stripe. However, once his adult coat started coming in, the chevron on his tail started spreading up his back. I have lots of photos of him at 5-6 weeks old. Not all sables have the same coat and not all go through the exact same color phases.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> my sable pup never went through a young phase where he had a black stripe. However, once his adult coat started coming in, the chevron on his tail started spreading up his back. I have lots of photos of him at 5-6 weeks old. Not all sables have the same coat and not all go through the exact same color phases.


Can you share some? I love seeing that type of stuff, it's neat to see the differences.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Cschmidt88 said:


> Can you share some? I love seeing that type of stuff, it's neat to see the differences.


Your album photo shows he had the stripe. I have never seen a sable without it to some degree, some more obvious than others, but even on super dark black sables, it's just not easy to see on them because of the intensity of the pigment but it is there.

Not all puppies are going to be exactly the same in overall look due to difference in coat and pigment strength, but they do go through the same basic phases, born dark, gradually lighten, and then darken again once the puppy fuzz comes out, it is just how the gene works. Just as black and tans go through the same basic change of dark and losing black as they mature, the amount of black they lose just depends on their individual pigment.  The puppy in the picture has solid black sides which you will not see once a sable at that age, even super dark black sables will show some degree of lightening, the degree of which just varies. ^_^


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't have any pictures in there of him at 5-7 weeks unless it's a head shot type photo. I don't have any full body shots of him at that age. At that stage, he was a solid grey looking.

sables also have varying degrees of darkness when born. That is why one of the best gauges of how dark they will be as an adult is to know what color they were the first week to 10 days. 

As soon as Singe started to get his adult coat he got the stripe. The color spreads up from the chevron and the down from the backbone. Believe me, the amount of grooming and conformation handling we were doing there was no black stripe from 8 weeks until the adult coat started to come in.


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