# Opinions on these litters...



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I've decided to get a pup this winter/spring and am seriously looking at a few different litters. There are two that really stand out to me and a third that I have been thinking about. The pup will mainly be an active companion for me. I live on a large farm and have tons of space and time for whatever kind of pup I end up with. I am also planning on training the dog for blood trailing game (deer) so the need for a good nose, decent drive, and trainability is important. Schutzhund is something I'd love to try but it would just be for fun and no serious competition. The three litters I'm looking at are:
Inka V Schmetterholz X Arko Vom Eichenluft
Robia vom Salztalblick X Drago vom Patriot
Romana vom Lastal X Waiko vom Schaumbergerland
I know the lines are a bit all over the place but I've met some of the dogs personally, met the breeders, and am confident that these are quality dogs with a lot of thought put into each breeding. 
This will be my first puppy, second GSD so I'm a bit new to this. Any information, opinions, thoughts would be very much appreciated.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Can you link to the pedigrees? It makes it easier for people so they don't have to do the searching.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Can you link to the pedigrees? It makes it easier for people so they don't have to do the searching.


Litter from Arko vom Eichenluft and Inka vom Schmetterholz

Litter from Drago vom Patriot and Robia Salztalblick

Litter from Waiko vom Schaumbergerland and Romana vom Lastal


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I, personally, would go for the first one just because I know Arko's sire and then his grandsire and how the latter produced. If your goal was IPO, probably the second would be better.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You are really doing a great job researching this. As far as I'm concerned you are in a perfect place to trust yourself at this point. 

Which parent dogs/lines did you really feel drawn to? Looks/temperament?

Which breeder did you really feel would fit your needs in all the upcoming years with support and feedback? Which did you really feel had the breeding program you felt confident in and want your $$$$$$$$$ to support to continue breeding THOSE types of dogs?

And go with them!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I will jump in since I have a Waiko son. 

Also, disclaimer, the Waiko litter mentioned is not from my breeder.

I have been very happy with my Waiko son, I wanted an active companion that can do IPO local/regional. So far he's exceeded my expectations (and I am working with an IPO helper/trainer so far, so good) but I don't know about the game trailing.

My suggestion is to look at the progeny of the dogs listed, what are they doing? Are they participating in venues and living in homes doing at least somewhat similar activities?

Check for tracking in progeny, look for progeny that are doing well in tracking venues (IPO and others). That may help give you better insight on the trailing.

Other then that, what Maggie said. At the end of the day you are relying on the breeder to help pick the pup that is the best match for your goals. So as much as anything else, selecting the breeder is equally important.

It sounds like you will be providing an excellent home for a German Shepherd btw.  Good luck with your final choice!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh, I just remembered, Astrovan, you're the Stihl mechanic!  You saw the pics of my Waiko son on this forum.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the showline litter should be fine for your goals....then the Drago litter....


Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I dont see any goal to these breedings other then to produce pets with the possible exception of the middle breeding.
Drago has produced thousands of pups I have seen only a couple I would want to feed. I wouldnt go with any of these breedings..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not a fan of what Drago is producing either and I've talked to several helpers and trainers. They all had the same opinion.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

They look ok young but they seem to lack in character for the most part.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> They look ok young but they seem to lack in character for the most part.


thin nerved


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Personally I would not be looking at any of them either - but out of what was referenced.....

Drago isn't the only one I would say produced thin nerves....but then seeing one dog with a specific trait does not mean everythign from a breeder is that way - esp when the dog with the trait is not even related to the breeders current stock.....

Lee


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

I am always amazed at the knowledge of this community! Out of curiosity what does "thin nerved" mean? Jumpy?


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## thaoc (Mar 13, 2014)

*Why isn't Drago producing good litters?*

The drago breeding is interesting to me-I'm shocked he can't produce. Will keep following to see if anyone else chimes in.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thaoc...It can't be that Drago is total dud. 

The Germans asked to have him back for breeding after they let him go to the U.S. I don't think they would have done that if he was 'that' bad. :shrug:

Definitely very popular, lots of progeny. But as our experienced breeders here tell us there are a lot of variables. Is the female a good match? The owners and training or lack thereof are a factor. 

A quick scan shows some progeny out there titling and doing work. 

Progeny list for V Drago vom Patriot


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I've seen nice Drago progeny and I've seen less that nice...same with other highly used males....MUCH depends on teh mother....

the female in that pairing is from a kennel who breeds moderate dogs with good conformation - a friend in Belgium sold them a very very very good looking - true V - very very very STRONG male - they used him for a few litters and he was gone - too much drive and power for their goals...so with that in mind, I would say they will get a nicely tempered, moderately drivy pup who is as suitable for a companion home as a novice sport home....

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:




wolfstraum said:


> I've seen nice Drago progeny and I've seen less that nice...same with other highly used males....MUCH depends on teh mother....
> 
> the female in that pairing is from a kennel who breeds moderate dogs with good conformation - a friend in Belgium sold them a very very very good looking - true V - very very very STRONG male - they used him for a few litters and he was gone - too much drive and power for their goals...so with that in mind, I would say they will get a nicely tempered, moderately drivy pup who is as suitable for a companion home as a novice sport home....
> 
> Lee


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Wow…lots of good info on here, leaves a lot to think about. I really appreciate the input, negative or positive. If anyone has different litter suggestions that would be due late January to early spring time I would love to hear them. Thanks again for the advice.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Picture just post of a Drago granddaughter-looks like she works and she sure is pretty-lol


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

annabirdie, depending on how you're using the word "jumpy", thin nerved is different from describing a dog with weak nerves (nervous, flighty, fearful, soft, unsound)... it'd be more similar to a person who is quick tempered - not as thoughtful, collected or reliable in their approach, reacts at the slightest bit of pressure. solid, confident responses are desirable although some ppl enjoy quickness and see it as being flashy/showy.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

thin nerved - overly reactive in a negative way - lack of confidence, unsure of new situations and people, quick to be aggressive because of lack of confidence

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The dog has been bred 1000s of times and he has produced what? How many of his offspring are at a competitive level? Much to few considering the amount of breedings he has. Just titling is not enough, this is the minimum standard. 
There are many males past and present with much less breedings that have more progeny showing well at high levels.
What I have personally noted in his offspring is a lack of overall presence in their work. Yes the drive is often there and even in many cases reasonable nerve but their is no real authority in the protection or obedience. Just dogs going through the motions. Seen this trend to often in direct progeny to discount it as a one off. 
I have seen a very nice male that is a grandson that was imported here that looks very good. However he comes out of the Esblokhof kennel who's bloodline is notorious for character...to say the least..lol. Maybe he will be one of those dogs you won't mind once two or more gens back in a ped, but I wouldn't take a chance on direct progeny or a line breeding on him unless I could already see the resulting pup at 6 plus months.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Blitz, technically speaking I don't have a dog in this fight.

I don't own Drago progeny nor have any plans to do so since I've got 4 dogs and that's my limit money and space wise.

Having said that in order for you to make the argument fairly against Drago you'd have to take the time to research progeny of popular much used males in the past, look at titles including work (police, K9, SAR), perform an objective statistical comparison. On the pdb link I provided (which is just a sampling of course) I see progeny with titles and Police work. 

The reality is you've only seen a tiny, tiny sampling of his progeny. Given you have a bias towards what I like to call "Rambo" dogs you're also going to be a much harsher critic on most dogs that aren't velociraptors in Mali fur.

That's ok too. Each to his own but let's at least be fair. Perhaps you should reach out to Gary (owner of Drago) and let him know of the problems you see with Drago. I'm sure that will be a interesting convo.....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's a link to Drago's owners website with contact information. 

Welcome to the Canine Concepts


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg said "What I have personally noted in his offspring is a lack of overall presence in their work"

where are all these Drago progeny you are seeing in southern Ontario?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was wondering the same thing Carmen, eh? . Good morning btw.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwen - how many Drago progeny have you seen worked?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Gwen - how many Drago progeny have you seen worked?


 It doesn't matter how many I've seen. (I'm in the SE so I actually have seen a few!)

I'm not the one making the claim that Drago is a *failure* as a stud dog.

I agree with what Lee said earlier, some nice progeny, some not so nice because that's generally how it goes. Was that way when I was involved in horses.

It's the blanket statements against Drago that I am pointing out as inaccurate.

The evidence indicates otherwise. I've made my case in earlier posts. 

If you don't agree that's o.k. On a macro level I don't see it as black and white, all good or all bad. 

On an individual level I like to look at each dog, each handler and let them be judged as *individuals* based on what they are doing IRL. 

That's all I have to say on this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It doesn't matter how many I've seen. (I'm in the SE so I actually have seen a few!)
> 
> I'm not the one making the claim that Drago is a *failure* as a stud dog.
> 
> ...


LOL Ok. As long as it all looks good on paper, we'll discount people that have worked the dogs and seen the dogs work.

I was asking how many you've seen to get your opinion on what you saw and you would rather snark at me on how that doesn't matter. Great! That's helpful input! Good job!

People are allowed their opinions. They are basing their opinions on what they've seen. You are the one claiming he's a failure as a stud dog. Nobody else said that. 

We said we didn't like what we saw and stated what we saw and stated what we observed. I'm adding to my opinion of what I saw based on the conversations I've had with high level competitors/trainers and helpers who have worked the dogs. 

Of course there are some nice ones out there. The female does bring a lot to the breeding, as Lee stated. And creates a wide variety of drives and temperament.

You like them, obviously, so have 10 if you want. I'll choose to have none and continue to advise people what I've observed so they can make their own decision. I'm sure Blitz will as well. I'm not sure why anyone would want to shutdown opinions on the negative seen in progeny. It only adds to problems later on in the lines. To each their own.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anytime a dog is used a lot (and, come on, 1000's of times is a huge exaggeration) there will be a variety of offspring out there. Unfortunately popular males get used a lot and often with females that are not suitable for them. This is not always the fault of the male as much a fault of the breeders who breed to a male for the wrong reasons or without fully understanding the crosses they are making. I have talked to people who have actually worked him and like the dog, like the offspring they have seen or own offspring who they are competing with. I have also talked to people who do not like the dog or his offspring or have owned his offspring that didn't work out.

I think we have now beaten this poor dog to death so let's move on, please.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

For the record I was not 'snarking' at anyone, ^what Lisa said.

On the 'snarking' I'm not basing my thoughts on what I've seen personally (because it really doesn't matter what Haz or I have 'seen' that's my point) but rather what both Lee and now Lisa have also said, the big picture. That is all and it's nothing personal. 

I did have a chance, twice, at Drago pups. I passed for various reasons, but not because I was told he is failing as a stud dog...anyhoo.

Now I've got a WGSL and I'm very happy with him. For me he's a great dog to learn with. Someday maybe I will have a nice bi-color Drago pup or not. It's not a priority for me.

In the meantime, back onto the OPs questions.

My best advice, to you as someone who is new to the serious breeder scene....the best thing you can do is look at what the breeder is actually producing. Most of us don't have enough in depth knowledge of pedigrees to make judgments and even then genetics is always going to be a crap shoot too.

You mentioned you wanted a dog to do blood trailing as one of the main activities. I don't think there are any breeders out there producing specifically for blood trailing (?) and from what I've heard people tend to use hunting dogs/hounds for that? So if that is the top priority I think the next questions that should be asked what qualities in a GSD will make it good for blood trailing?

Would a breeder who produces a lot of SAR dogs be the best? Seems like strong tracking would be important.

I don't know enough about game trailing to be able to advise how these disciplines would cross over. 

Anyhoo....as someone who is only a few steps ahead of you on this path my recommendation would be to focus more on the breeder and what that breeder is producing IRL rather then getting involved in the competition between stud dogs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Gwenhwyfair said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't matter how many I've seen. (I'm in the SE so I actually have seen a few!)
> ...


And how many have you worked or seen?

There are just as many high level competitors that both like and dislike him, that I know of. 

I can advise that I've seen multiple that I have liked very much, and some I've liked less. I can say the same for every stud out there. It's all a matter of opinion and I sure do hope OP takes most with a grain of salt.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Blitzkrieg said "What I have personally noted in his offspring is a lack of overall presence in their work"
> 
> where are all these Drago progeny you are seeing in southern Ontario?


There was one actually but unlike some I actually travel for this dog thing. See dogs, talk to handlers, talk to helpers, work dogs, buy dogs..hope I am not being to confusing.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Blitz, technically speaking I don't have a dog in this fight.
> 
> I don't own Drago progeny nor have any plans to do so since I've got 4 dogs and that's my limit money and space wise.
> 
> ...


 
I have seen enough in different countries with different bitches to get a pretty good feel for what he produces. I have talked to enough people I trust to properly eval dogs about some of his progeny. 
I can form my own opinion. If you think different go buy a pup.

You can run a science experiment if you like. 
Or you can keep it simple, where are the puppies, how many are competing, what do they look like in the work (many videos), how many are for sale and by who, who is breeding to Drago now.
Then look at another stud like Quardes, Chris Spod Lazov, Javir or whoever and do the same comparison. The results are clear if you want to see.

Who knows, if I see a young dog from him that works well and has clear joints I might buy him for my protection program. I certainly wont risk a pup and that is my opinion nothing more or less.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I have talked to people who have actually worked him and like the dog, like the offspring they have seen or own offspring who they are competing with. I have also talked to people who do not like the dog or his offspring or have owned his offspring that didn't work out.


And don't you think much of it comes down to personal preferences? I know people who didn't like Javir. Not crazy about most of what he produced. I've seen 3 females from him and liked each of them. Granted only 3 out of how many? But I liked them. I haven't liked the Drago progeny except for one female. But compared to the Javir daughter that she wasn't my thing. Personal biases and preferences play a much larger role than we admit.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Agree.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And, for the record, he is not my type of dog so I would not use him for one of my girls because of that.

It is interesting what people like and don't like. I got to recently see pups by a male that is being used quite a bit lately. I know the dam of this litter and she is a super nice female, but I was not thrilled with the puppies. People oo and aaaa, but I just saw thin nerves. 

And another male that people all really talk about who I also would not use because of a nervy nasty edge I have seen in both the dog himself and some of his kids. It is sort of a "to each his own".


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

People see one dog and base their whole opinion on that dog....

I was recently told that my dogs are "screamers" and "leak drive" - based on ONE - 1 - UNO - dog.....his sire was well known to produce this - he was line bred on a dog well known to produce it...Yet this person - a fairly well known competitor - advised a potential puppy buyer NOT to buy from me due to this ONE dog...BTW - a litter mate to that one dog produced a top National competitor and a WUSV competitor....more linebreeding on that same dog,so yes, a bit of drive can "leak"....

That same female family produced a top National competitor in Belgium, a female who has been top placed female in several National events...a little powerhouse....but based on one dog who "screams and leaks drive" - my whole breeding program was condemned.

Oh - I don't have anything from that family any more either, and haven't for 7 or 8 years - the person condemning the dogs tried to buy a young female from me (dam of the dog competing nationally LOL, and half sister to the drive leaker) - AND the person who was told not to buy a working pup from me, was advised to buy from a friend of the person passing judgement....

There are several males out there that people ohh and aww over that I would not use because I saw progeny,from one for example, that could not cap, could not settle and thin nerves as well - I look at the whole pedigree and can see where these things come from quite often......and another one I know of 4 litters, and the most consistant quality is the inconsistancy in the pups - each litter is just all over the place drive wise - from insane to totally lacking in teh same litter....there is a term we use in horses called "prepotency" - the ability to stamp progeny with certain things no matter what the dam's is her her side brings...That quality is what makes a dog a sire down the road rather than a contributor of sperm.

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's the problem Lee. Well two problems really. Some of this is driven purely by competition between breeders or competitors who will condemn an entire program based on ancedotal evidence. Some of it is based on newbies who haven't figured the above out and will believe a more experienced person. These are opinions. Then there are personal preferences like the whole too much prey vs defense civil arguments. 

So if a stud is more "sporty" with prey those who don't agree with that won't like that stud and vice versa. Opinions and preference. 

This is different however, from labeling a stud or entire program as a total failure, based on opinion or preference, that crosses the line, that's bashing and often inaccurate.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the Germans would have asked to have Drago back for breeding if he was *that* bad. Go through the trouble and expense. 

Also, I have heard bad things about every breeder on this board. Every.single.one. I take it all with a grain of salt, most of the time.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

I've spoken with an individual who bred his female to Drago once. He said the progeny tended to be pretty drivey and energetic compared to other males she was bred to.

No mention of nerves or anything else, though. I should have asked in more detail.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends on the female, as well as the combo. Sometimes, combos do not click at all, no matter how nice the pedigrees.

Depends on maturing rate of the dog. What we have seen, slower maturing level in some dogs. People tend to overlook that or attribute it to something else; it is usually a lack of patience on the handler's part.

Depends on the true experience of the handler, helper, training director. We have also seen dogs messed up, due to lack of experience of all 3 and not all dog issue....


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Over the years on the internet and in person I've seen and heard people spend a lot of time ripping another person's dog a part...and I wonder what the motivation is for that. You can say its personal preference but you're also saying he's got bad nerves which=not a good dog-you don't have to post that twice for people to understand what you're saying-at least be honest in that you are trashing someone else's dog-welcome to the wonderful world of dog sport....Also and I truly believe this the people in the sport who trash other people when you're not around they trash you-which is why I prefer most dogs to people-even my dog that sucked at schutzhund-Go out form your own opinions...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

holland said:


> You can say its personal preference...


I will say it's personal preference. I can even give you examples.

1. Friend has a dog that will leak drive just walking around. IPO3. Did great in the sport. That noise would make me lose it. She doesn't even hear it. Did it make a bad dog? NO! Is there anything to trash? NO!

2. Two other friends have dogs that never stop. One a half sister to my dog. Different mother. Again, that would drive me nuts. The dogs are fantastic. Super strong females that have much to bring to the breed. No way, no how would I want one to live with.

Personal preference does not mean the dog is bad. It may just mean it's not a dog that YOUR personality can live with. I have enough hectic energy of my own and need a dog that balances with that, not adds to it.

So I found the dogs I saw to have thin nerves. Another person might love think it's drive and build from it. Blitz thinks they lack character, another might think it's a calm, focused dog. I don't get why everyone is up in arms over opinions...they are just opinions based on our own experiences and biases.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The above is my opinion based upon my experiences


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

you didn't have to post 2 I understood the first time


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

holland said:


> you didn't have to post 2 I understood the first time


~sigh~ Why do you always have to be like this? I just posted two different examples of dogs with different personalities to fully explain my thoughts. Nor was I arguing with your opinion. It's valid and most often true. There was no reason to be defensive and respond like that.


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