# This is a fun video



## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

These dogs are tenacious, not bad for volunteers and citizens training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8JLMfIUwsw&feature=related


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Can't say I am impressed. Spinning then slamming the dogs by the decoy a bit injurious to the dog and really not required. I have seen some dogs get their spine and stifles toasted with that--so much for the working career. Maybe the bad guy would do that but for training? Not for me.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

You play like you practice. While there can be too much of it, it's still needed none-the-less. What we do isn't sport. The worst time you can find out the dog can't take that pressure is during an actual situation. Real bad guys sometimes really fight the dog. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DFrostYou play like you practice. While there can be too much of it, it's still needed none-the-less. What we do isn't sport. The worst time you can find out the dog can't take that pressure is during an actual situation. Real bad guys sometimes really fight the dog.


Exactly. We are not playing out there. Just one example is a friend of mine on a stop one night. In a flash the violator jumped him. Guy was huge and mentally unstable. He managed to get my friend's sidearm and point it to his head. Before he could pull the trigger,my friend's k9 hit him. The crook hit the dog in the head with the handgun,knocking her down. The fight started again. The k9 kept engaging the guy and he kept hitting her full force in the head with the handgun. Both cop and k9 were fighting for their lives. This dog would NOT stop engaging which gave my friend the time to pull his second weapon and terminate the crook. My friend was fine and the k9 was ok after being taken to the vet and xrayed. That dog took multiple hits to her head full force and kept fighting. She saved my friend's life that night. My organization gave her an award at our convention and we all petted her hair off. So, this kind of training is most certainly necessary


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I definitely understand that the dog on the street has to take it all. And that K9 handlers MUST train real. My friend is a K9 for the City of St. Paul, MN. She has explained to me this principle. My point is a young dog who has the potential for a long working career can get injured a never see duty and are washed out. That is all. Kinda like the QB who takes a horrible beating in the game then wheres the red shirt for practice until he takes a hit again later in the week. I guess the impression of the videos was that slamming the dog down was occuring all the time during training. Of course as I think about it more, the dogs are well conditioned like human pro athletics and cut down on injuries.But from what David said a tough fight needs to be trained for. The pressure must be trained for. Thanks


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

More experienced schutzhund people might be able to answer this for me...I saw a part of the video where the decoy finally gave the dog the sleeve, and the handler encouraged the dog to spit it out and keep advancing toward the now-sleeveless decoy. My question is, would that method ever be used in training a schutzhund dog? I ask because I have never seen that done before and I wonder if it's only done with PPD/K9 training, if there are special situations that would call for it, or if they're just plain training incorrectly. Thanks!

-Jackie


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GhostwolfMore experienced schutzhund people might be able to answer this for me...I saw a part of the video where the decoy finally gave the dog the sleeve, and the handler encouraged the dog to spit it out and keep advancing toward the now-sleeveless decoy. My question is, would that method ever be used in training a schutzhund dog? I ask because I have never seen that done before and I wonder if it's only done with PPD/K9 training, if there are special situations that would call for it, or if they're just plain training incorrectly.


Yes, many SchH people do that. Many do not. Depends on the dog and the goals of the training.

I'm one that does encourage that behavior. I want a dog who views the decoy as a challenge/threat. I do not want a dog who just plays tug-o-war with the sleeve. My goal is a dog who is sleeve sure in the sense that it will bite the sleeve, and no where else, when a sleeve is present, but who will also fight (and bite) without a sleeve when the situation calls for it. We regularly do bite suit work, and have done hidden sleeve and muzzle work in the past, with our SchH dogs. I feel this way not just because it lends itself to additional more PPD type training, which we do sometimes do, but because it is a better test of the dog's genetics. Sleeve or no, the dog is supposed to be fighting a person, not playing a game. That is what SchH is supposed to test. Regardless of it's use of sleeves, it can still do a very good job of testing that, but even more can be learned about who the dog is by doing some out of the SchH box type work in training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That was a good question Jackie, and as Chris explained, it is good training to train a dog to view the helper as an adversary, and not just see the sleeve as a tug toy. Early in the training phase, many dogs get very equipment focused and that is normal and expected as the dogs are started out with very little stress, and the tug/sleeve is first introduced as a prey item - but to achieve your goal of building the dog's confidence, and testing his courage and willingness to engage, you have to get the dog "helper/threat" focused. 

For example, here is a pic of my mixed breed being worked: 








Notice that the sleeve is behind her, yet all of her focus in on the "bad guy". (Real Schutzhund people - as opposed to wannabes like me - are welcome to jump in and further comment or correct). He is advancing towards her in full frontal pose, with direct eye contact and a threatening look on his face. The distance between him and Keeta is very small, yet she meets his advance fully by pulling towards him, continued barking, keeping the line taught, and returning the eye contact without missing a beat. 

At this point, many dogs will be overwhelmed by the proximity of the threat, and will back away, and/or go for sleeve on the ground as a safe place to be, as getting the sleeve has always been the release of the stress.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

I agree with you both...To me, a dog that views the protection phase of Sch as "just a game" does not exemplify what the protection phase was designed for.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Good grief. Um, I accidently edited part of your post because instead of hitting reply, I hit edit.







THAT is what happens when the phone rings. Does it help if I tell you that I spent all day with contractors repairing my place from Hurricane Ike and I am traumatized? I'm sorry,I'm sorry,I'm sorry....did I say I am sorry?







I don't even remember what I was going to post.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If I remember right Ghostwolf was asking at what point in the training is the dog switched from playing in prey to actually being pressured for defense.

I'm not sure if I can answer that question - I'm still learning what Schutzhund is about, still learning what the helper does to train and develop a dog, and still learning about reading my dog when under stress. What I know is that it was an EXTREMELY gradual process, with just tiny bits of more pressure and threat brought forward, with the helper acting (overacting LOL) being scared and intimidated in order to build confidence.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidIf I remember right Ghostwolf was asking at what point in the training is the dog switched from playing in prey to actually being pressured for defense.


The simple answer: when the dog is ready for it.

There is no magic age, as it depends on the dog's temperament, nerve, and his development through other the other stages of learning in protection work. 

Some dogs are ready for some defensive pressure relatively young, others not until full maturity. Likewise, some can only handle a little bit and never more than that, others can handle quite a lot, and some can never handle much at all, regardless of age. Each dog also has a different idea of what constitutes "defensive pressure". For one dog, it may be the helper just acting a bit suspicious or making eye contact, for others it might take a full frontal attack for the dog to feel pressured. It's completely up to the individual dog, and that's why having a good helper who can read the dog well, put on pressure when called for and, most importantly, relieve that pressure in the right manner when the dog responds properly, is so important.


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