# difference betweeen a puppy mill and commercial kennel



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Another thread has me wondering what the difference is between the two.

I always thought they were pretty much the same except a commercial kennel might have better living conditions for the dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pertaining to GSD's I would hope a commercial kennel would have better lines as well as better living conditions. 
But to purchase from either wouldn't be in my plans...I'd much rather go with a small hobby breeder who looks at what they are producing before popping out litter after litter.
Millers and commercial kennels may not take responsibility for what they produce or give customer support after purchase(even though a commercial kennel may say they do on their website or contract) 
Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference, they are producing puppies that they truely cannot keep up with(health, temperament or how they turn out work/show-wise), it is about $ for both.
I do believe if a commercial kennel exchanged a pup due to poor health or temp, they would euth vs helping the dog to live a full life. And very few people return a pup after they've fallen in love with it, so bear the burden of what the breeder shouldn't have produced in the first place.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Good question, I would stay on this thread and see what is said.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks for that input Jane. I also would rather use a hobby breeder.

So do commercial kennels buy dogs with good pedigrees (working and show) and then breed them until they can't breed anymore where a miller would use any registered GSD?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think many commercial kennels import dogs already titled and then live off the titles or the titles on the pedigrees of the lines. Or work as a broker as well.
They don't usually work their own dogs to titles, a few may but they aren't HOT dogs/with exception to a very few.
A miller probably just uses the AKC as their selling point... to the uninformed.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

the legal defintion of a commercial kennel (as recognized by USDA) is someone who raises puppies wholesale to be resold retail. ie a breeder who raises puppies to be sold in pet stores
a broker is someone who buys wholesale and resales wholesale again. so they buy your puppy sell to someone(pet store) who will resale again to the end user

there is no legal defintion of puppy mill, but the assumed defintion is someone who raises puppies commercially, but fails to meet legal care standards or may not even be licensed and inspected at all . It always means a substandard facility(unless speaking to an extremist who makes up their own criteria)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know of a few kennels that I consider "commercial" as they are pumping out about 6 litters every three months...this doesn't fall into the hobby breeder criteria. They aren't wholesale, and charging as much as they can get with price bracketing. IMO, they are a glorified PM as they sure are only in it for the $$.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Commercial kennels are defined in state regulations as well. They do not all match the USDA definitions. 

Kennels inspected by USDA are not where I would want to buy a puppy. For one thing, under USDA regulations, puppies may not be raised within human dwellings. That knocks them out right there. 

So, 

What would you call, a larger kennel that breeds dogs for a specific purpose, such as a large show breeder, or a breeder of guide dogs, or a breeder of police dogs or war dogs. Animals are kept well, records are kept, conditions are good, but it is like so many horses in a stable? 

None are family dogs, all are basically kept in an institutional setting, some sold as puppies, others kept to be trained and either sold as working dogs or shown, depending on which type of facility it is?

Kennels that import many dogs to sell them or puppies to people here. 

Multiple litters, multiple staff, usually another driving factor than simply producing puppies for the pet market.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

chocolat said:


> ...there is no legal defintion of puppy mill, but the assumed defintion is someone who raises puppies commercially, but fails to meet legal care standards or may not even be licensed and inspected at all . It always means a substandard facility(unless speaking to an extremist who makes up their own criteria)


What you described is substandard, why does it matter if its given a name to classify? A backyard breeder is usually also giving substandard care but they are not on the same level as a miller.

why is anyone who doesn't agree an extremist?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, it is possible to meet all the legal standards and still be a puppy mill. Puppy Mill = puppies as a business. Dogs are merely objects to be sold and discarded if they have no commercial value. 
Even if the facility is state of the art, animals are well-fed, vetted, and clean, they can be a puppy mill. The dogs are merely products and a means to an end. If a dog doesn't produce, it is dumped at an auction, abandoned at the pound, or just killed. Puppies are turned over to a broker and sold through petstores to the first person with cash.

Many commercial kennels can fall into this class as well. Some are a bit higher notched because they are marketing the dogs with a purpose, be it show or work. At least those dogs get daily human interaction because it is required to give the dogs any monetary value. In the end, however, the dogs are still merely a commodity and a paycheck. If the dog can't perform, it is dumped off or euthanized. Puppies are sometimes sold through brokers. Others are sold to individuals/companies on a first come first served basis. Homes are generally not screened any farther than insuring that the check cleared. If the owner can't keep the dog, then they are on their own.

A good breeder, on the other hand, even if they have many dogs, CARES for their dogs. Not just the legal definition of adequate care which in most instances means access to water, some type of rudimentary shelter, and food. Many good breeders keep their dogs inside, though some do make use of outdoor kennels to rotate dogs, ensuring that all get quality people time. Dogs are trained to maximize the dog, not the bottom line of profit. If a dog doesn't perform or produce well, it is spay/neutered and placed in a loving family home. The dogs are individuals, loved and treated as such, not just a means to a paycheck. Homes are carefully screened, references are checked and puppies are matched with homes best suited for the pup's individual personality and needs. If the dog later loses its home, the breeder will take the puppy back.


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## White German Shepherd (Jun 8, 2010)

Puppy Mil- Breed just for the money.

Breeder- Breeds to keep the GSD standard, selective breeding, and they wont sell to just anyone.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

interesting that we have over the years increased the emotional value of a dog to an equal to people and yet we still eat cheesburgers and arent worried about the cows or pigs who arent allowed in a living room or rotated in the house from the pasture.
I can guarantee a pig raised as a pet has as much emotion, brains and wittiness as any dog, and they truly enjoy being spoiled as pets.

Just because one keeps a dog in a kennel and takes it out to train ect and doesnt have it as a personal pet doesnt mean they dont care. And there is no sin in wanting to make money when selling a puppy, despite what people are pushing for these days. If someone dedicates their day and time to raising dogs, importing, training etc.. and they can do so and make money, more power to them. What a great way to enjoy your life with dogs than to have them as your hobby and your job.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

My view of a GSD is the result of my evolution in understanding the breed....and I remain a humble student. An aspect of this breed that I admire and respect is the working tradition and the role Schutzhund has played.

"The breeder on a small scale, one who works with one or two bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs he (SHE) can care for his (HER) breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he (SHE) can produce strong sound animals that can be trained."

Max v Stephanitz

Anything else is a departure and something different. The breeder I will get my next puppy from exemplifies the spirit the Captain defined. A person who raises their dogs next to hearth, and trains their dogs themselves to work.

So the question is....is something different wrong? For me, yes.....but there is no denial, the demand exists for other less informed dog owners out there.

Not every pet owner, not every dog owner, not every GSD owner is typical of the collection of folks who make-up this forum.

So I would submit the symptom is the puppy mill (bad conditions) or the commerical breeder (acceptable conditions), and the problem is the uniformed pet owner who has a distinct lack of knowledge and immediate gratification issues.....they are the problem...and there are millions of those problems across the country.

Happy 4th of July!

The easy fix is indeed to treat the symptom....legislate the mass breeder out of existence, thereby limiting access of the stupid to a puppy. They don't deserve a dog anyway.

Supply goes down, demand remains constent to increasing, and the price of a dog goes through the roof. Your $1,500 hobby bred working line GSD goes to $6,000 because that is what the market will bear.

Don't worry, this won't actually ever happen. The pet industry is a $47 billion dollar annual business, and dogs make-up 46% of the revenue stream. There are very large companies with powerful lobbyists that will ensure the 71.4 million homes with a dog have excellent access to animals, and sustain the demand for their products.

I own a pet shop, and I do not sell dogs. I tell my customers to study their breed, research breeders, and take their time....and simply ignore the stupid people.

Wayne


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

" Many good breeders keep their dogs inside, though some do make use of outdoor kennels to rotate dogs, ensuring that all get quality people time".

Not 100% correct and I would not use this as a barometer.

Some breeders that state that they keep their dogs in the house actually keep the dogs *in crates in the house*. Due to work/job, that means minimum, the dogs in the crate 9-10 hours per day, plus sleep time.* So, close to 18 hours per day in a crate*. Dogs can not be let out together in the house, so = more time in crate.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

The difference between puppy mill and a commercial kennel is *success*.

One kennel produces useless dogs that can't do anything, while the other produces actual working dogs that can and do _excel at their jobs_.

A "hobby breeder" is someone who breeds their doggy because they want to "have pups" and has no understanding of genetics and hasn't put enough time in as a breeder to be able to make effective breeding decisions.

A true breeder of dogs has his own bloodline, understands both the standards for excellence within his preferred breed type, AND he has enough animals of his given bloodline to consistently and predictably produce good dogs with them.

Anyone else who breeds dogs (be it for "hobby" to create "puppies for homes" ... or just to pump lots of dog flesh out there only for $$) is a sham of a breeder, and is creating dog lives that have no standard for excellence.

Only a truly dedicated bloodline breeder should breed dogs IMO, and I would never buy ANY dog from any breeder unless he or she had consistently-proven to produce excellent working dogs (not show dogs).

Jack


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> A "hobby breeder" is someone who breeds their doggy because they want to "have pups" and has no understanding of genetics and hasn't put enough time in as a breeder to be able to make effective breeding decisions.


I disagree with this statement. A hobby breeder is not a back yard breeder, which is what you are describing. 
A hobby breeder works their dogs and know the lines they are breeding, but doesn't produce many litters~maybe one or two a year. They aren't breeding to be in the business of profitting off their puppies. They are doing it out of their passion for the breed and bloodlines they are reproducing.

A hobby breeder is the same as described in your following paragraph that describe a true breeder(with the exception of having enough animals of given bloodline, you don't need to own several when you can observe the progeny of certain pedigrees).


> A true breeder of dogs has his own bloodline, understands both the standards for excellence within his preferred breed type, AND he has enough animals of his given bloodline to consistently and predictably produce good dogs with them.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

_A "hobby breeder" is someone who breeds their doggy because they want to "have pups" and has no understanding of genetics and hasn't put enough time in as a breeder to be able to make effective breeding decisions._

_A true breeder of dogs has his own bloodline, understands both the standards for excellence within his preferred breed type, AND he has enough animals of his given bloodline to consistently and predictably produce good dogs with them._

Absolutely disagree.
You do not need a kennel full of dogs to learn the bloodlines. You DO need to get out, see other dogs, and develop a network of friends and associates from which you can gather information.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Good question, I would stay on this thread and see what is said.


Agreed!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Absoluetly agree with Onyx' girl and gagsd. There are good quality hobby breeders out there.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> You do not need a kennel full of dogs to learn the bloodlines.


Littleblackbook did not say the above. They said the breeder has their *own* bloodline. And having enough dogs to keep that bloodline stable doesn't mean you own ALL the dogs (many dogs are co-owned).


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

gagsd said:


> Absolutely disagree.
> You do not need a kennel full of dogs to learn the bloodlines. You DO need to get out, see other dogs, and develop a network of friends and associates from which you can gather information.


 
Hello!

Getting out there and "seeing other dogs" is not _breeding experience_; it is seeing other dogs. If I "see" a great dog at its job, this does not mean I myself know how to put that great dog together, genetically. True breeding experience comes from *actually breeding dogs* and actually developing a working knowledge of which dogs within your line tend to produce what traits in their offspring.

I do agree with Xeph that a small group of people working together with a bloodline can develop this knowledge together, but NO ONE who only breeds an occasional pair of dogs will ever become a great breeder, anymore than a guy who occasionally picks up the guitar will become a great guitar player. (Or insert whatever skill set you like.)

People with low standards or expectations are easily pleased by any old "pup" the get or produce ... but people who want to *consistently breed the best in the world* are those who _devote their lives_ to being full-time breeders, they gain more breeding experience than any "part-timer" will ever hope to have, and they invariably develop their own great bloodline within the breed.

There are no exceptions,

Jack


.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Welcome Jack...obviously you are a "full-time" breeder? What is your kennel's name? 
What venues do you work your dogs in? It seems from your posts that showlines are not your niche. 
I googled your name and saw that you also are a reptile, spider enthusiast or "ExoticOddities"?


> True breeding experience comes from *actually breeding dogs* and actually developing a working knowledge of which dogs within your line tend to produce what traits in their offspring.


What if those traits are not what you wanted, and the health or temperament of what you produced is terrible? Then what? Do you take them back if the owners can't handle the vet bills or training costs due to bad temperament?


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Welcome Jack...obviously you are a "full-time" breeder? What is your kennel's name?
> What venues do you work your dogs in? It seems from your posts that showlines are not your niche.
> I googled your name and saw that you also are a reptile, spider enthusiast or "ExoticOddities"?


 
I "was" a full-time breeder 

The trouble with breeding dogs full-time is you become a self-made prisoner, as it's hard to go anywhere with 30-40 dogs to take care of. So, after more than 20 years of dedication, I sold my dogs to a few good, longtime customers who keep the bloodline going, and now I just sell books, DVDs, and products to sporting dog fanciers.

I also love getting out in nature and enjoying wildlife, and I have been trying my hand at nature photography: Welcome to John Koerner Photography

Have a good night,

Jack


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What is the bloodline you produced?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You see, you argue that a "small" breeder, who only breeds a few dogs, cannot possibly get the information needed to know what the bloodlines will consistently produce.

But I would argue, that large, breeders, with 30 - 40 dogs to work, train, and make breeding decisions for, cannot possibly know their dogs as well as someone who only has a few dogs, but dogs live in the house, are part of the family, and the breeders raise, socialize, train, and trial each one of these dogs themselves. 

So, in my eyes, a breeder cannot know a dog that lives in a kennel environment as well as a dog that lives in a family environment.

Different ways of looking at it. 

And if the small breeder starts out with EXCELLENT dogs for breeding, and has an innate understanding of bloodlines and their strengths and weaknesses, and can very skillfully combine all their acquired knowledge - acquired through hands-on work with their dogs and many other dogs, and consistently produce ENTIRE LITTERS of high-quality working ability and faultless temperament, would that not make the small breeder a knowledgeable, experienced breeder?

My own preference would be to go to the breeder whose dogs live in the house, are well-loved family members that share their family's life, are trained and trialled and titled by the breeder to _really_ know their dogs, whose decision to breed is driven by the desire to produce something amazing. I would be concerned that a full-time breeder who depends on puppy sales to earn a living will feel pressured by financial considerations to breed and sell puppies, and thus the quality suffers, and pups and dogs are reduced to a market commodity.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> My own preference would be to go to the breeder whose dogs live in the house, are well-loved family members that share their family's life, are trained and trialled and titled by the breeder to _really_ know their dogs, *whose decision to breed is driven by the desire to produce something amazing*. I would be concerned that a full-time breeder who depends on puppy sales to earn a living will feel pressured by financial considerations to breed and sell puppies, and thus the quality suffers, and pups and dogs are reduced to a market commodity.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

John, I see you bred APBT's. I will admit that I know very little about pit bulls. what kind of performance events did your dogs consistently excell in? What was your client base? 

in my previous post, I'm explaining myself in in terms of what many would consider a good GSD breeder of course. Dogs that are bred for police work, narcotics detection, personal assistance dogs, Schutzhund training, SAR, Personal Protection, Military working dogs, Competitive Agility, Competitive Obedience, and a bazillion other performance and working venues that I can't think of at the moment, and all this and they are still great as friends, active pets, and companions, to young and old. To breed dogs that can do all this, the breeder must truly understand the dog's temperament and mental/psychological make-up, every itty-bitty strength and weakness of character, in order to really know what they are breeding, and I just don't see how that is possible if someone has 30+ dogs to take care off, and said dogs are kenneled. (I assume they are kenneled, I just don't see that many dogs living in the house).

I think that in a large kennel like the one you used to have, just by the sheer number of dogs produced, there will be some that turn out well and will out-shine the average dog, but I'm not sure what qualities you would be looking for in a pit bull, and what where they bred for? Perhaps getting to know the dogs you bred as intimately as a breeder of working GSDs, who is breeding to produce working dogs, is not as important for your goals - in which case, we are talking apples and oranges, and your experience does not translate well to GSD breeding, and what is considered good husbandry and ethical breeding practices in the GSD world does not translate well to APBT breeding. 

Actually, now that I brought it up, what were your APBT's bred for? Conformation? And . . . pets, and? I just can't think of ever seeing a working APBT, but that does not mean they are not out there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that John has a valid point. At the same time, I agree with Castlemaid. I think that in the middle lies a larger hobbyist who knows their dogs, works with their dogs, breeds their dogs, and gains the experience needed. 

Unfortunately, without the money that a kennel of 40 can produce, the larger scale hobbyist, must fund their dog experience by working externally to the business which drains the amount of time for training and learning, etc. 

On the other hand the breeder who had one or two excellent bitches, and spends all their money and time developing them and learning and finding the right match for them, and has a litter once every other year or so will never even reach the highest potential for those two bitches. Because a breeding on paper may look extrodinary, and produce less than exciting results. Only by breeding to you gain the experience needed to get a feel for what will work best.

And you breed to produce something spectacular. What spectacular being you produce, you will want to hold back and breed down the line. Or just hang up your hat now. The breeder with 1-2 dogs, turns into a breeder with 3-4 dogs, and the next thing you know, they are eying that hoarders thread nervously. 

I still think that the ideal breeder lies between the large breeder with 40 some dogs, and the tiny breeder with 2 or 3 dogs. Only the ideal breeder will have already won the lottery and not need to spend the majority of their existance surviving, and can dedicate that to their dogs. (God, why haven't I won the lottery yet? Meet me half way, buy a ticket!)


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> What is the bloodline you produced?


Nothing you've ever heard of.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Nothing you've ever heard of.


:rofl:

Oy vey! So, you're saying that you had a large-scale kennel in which you had THIRTY to FORTY breeding dogs, yet you're making an assumption about yourself that someone on here would not know your dogs. What is THAT saying? Not everyone on this board is "exclusive" to GSDs.

There are very few kennels, in my opinion, that excel at "large scale." Exceptions, sure. But managing 30 to 40 dogs is not easy, nor is finding enough excellent handlers to do so. There is no way the owner of the kennel is truly getting to know each and every one of the dogs and handling each on a daily basis to determine if it is suitable to be a bitch or a stud. Even excellent kennels like Eurosport who I consider to be "huge" breeders do not have 30 to 40 of their own breeding stock. They have about 6-7, and import the rest for sale. 

Perhaps there are amazing breeders out there that have numbers that large of breeding dogs. But I can say I have not ever come across a single one in which I think it better, or even comprable to, some of the smaller "hobby breeders" (as you call them) that have maybe only 3-4 dogs they are breeding.

And certainly you youself would be hardpressed to argue that that many dogs are good...after all, you "burned out" after 20 years yourself trying to manage that many dogs. Hardly a long, full career in many job avenues and a blink of the eye in a breed's history. So....your 20 years and a burn out (which I'm sure had been happening over years...hardly good for your dogs), or someone with far fewer dogs who spends 40 years doing it and loves and cherishes every second of it.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> You see, you argue that a "small" breeder, who only breeds a few dogs, cannot possibly get the information needed to know what the bloodlines will consistently produce.


Actually, I argued that a person who only breeds a few dogs cannot possibly have *the experience* as to which of _his own dogs_ can produce what, consistently.






Castlemaid said:


> But I would argue, that large, breeders, with 30 - 40 dogs to work, train, and make breeding decisions for, cannot possibly know their dogs as well as someone who only has a few dogs, but dogs live in the house, are part of the family, and the breeders raise, socialize, train, and trial each one of these dogs themselves.


A large breeder does not work all of his dogs. Since he is a commercial breeder, he will send off his stock to 10-20 different working professionals, and in doing so will gather much more feedback (over a much broader scale) than will someone at home breeding his or her only 2 doggies together.



Castlemaid said:


> So, in my eyes, a breeder cannot know a dog that lives in a kennel environment as well as a dog that lives in a family environment.


Most working dogs are not bred to be in a "family environment," but to do their jobs. Most '**** dogs don't sleep in bed with families and yet they don't have to in order to excel treeing ****. Most varmint-dispatching terriers don't either, nor is it part of their job description. Now, with a non-hunting dog (and personal protection dog) like a shepherd you do have a point.

However, again, feedback from many knowledgeable people in whose hands a breeder places his dogs still tells the breeder what he needs to know. If a dog you produce earns Schutzhund I in someone else's hands, you still know you produced a winning dog ... it doesn't have to be in "your" hands for you to know it turned out to be a great dog.

And by the same token, just because it's in "your" hands, and you like its personality and therefore breed it, doesn't mean your dog has the working characteristics to earn the Schutzund I title ...






Castlemaid said:


> Different ways of looking at it.


I agree 






Castlemaid said:


> And if the small breeder starts out with EXCELLENT dogs for breeding, and has an innate understanding of bloodlines and their strengths and weaknesses, and can very skillfully combine all their acquired knowledge - acquired through hands-on work with their dogs and many other dogs, and consistently produce ENTIRE LITTERS of high-quality working ability and faultless temperament, would that not make the small breeder a knowledgeable, experienced breeder?


Well, I don't think anyone has an innate knowledge of breeding, although I do agree some people "get it" before others do (while some never do get it).

I also agree that small breeders, who start with good dogs, good advice, and who *stick with their bloodline *can produce fine animals with what limited breedings they do make. And, sure, they will become more experienced than someone who doesn't breed any dogs at all.

But such a small-timer will still never make a splash like the full-time breeder will, who has even more good dogs to choose from, and even more overall knowledge of what he's working with. The small breeder will never get his overall experience. They will also never have as many "genetic options" within the bloodline available to make their selection. A small breeder will just be able to repeat the same one- or two breeding decisions they have in front of them.

By contrast, the large breeder not only has a much larger selection of available options on his own yard, but he can also pick up the phone and contact any of several customers (whose dogs have won high honors) and make an arrangement to breed to some truly outstanding specimens of his bloodline that he's produced.

Repeated over time, the large breeder can simply progress with his goals on a much larger and more accelerated scale than can a small-timer.






Castlemaid said:


> My own preference would be to go to the breeder whose dogs live in the house, are well-loved family members that share their family's life, are trained and trialled and titled by the breeder to _really_ know their dogs, whose decision to breed is driven by the desire to produce something amazing. I would be concerned that a full-time breeder who depends on puppy sales to earn a living will feel pressured by financial considerations to breed and sell puppies, and thus the quality suffers, and pups and dogs are reduced to a market commodity.


Well, I can't argue your "preference" with you 

My own argument was going with the *successful* breeder. A successful breeder _is_ successful only when he or she proves to repeatedly produce top-caliber dogs, so your statements about "quality suffering" could not possibly apply to a successful breeder. What you're talking about is a peddler, not a breeder. Sure, anyone would want to buy pup from a small-time breeder over a mass-peddler who has no ethics and breeds without regard to quality, who wouldn't? But that's just a strawman you're building up to knock down, isn't it?

The funny thing is, most of your competent small-time breeders started out by getting their "great stock" from the very top breeders I am talking about 

A truly good breeder produces excellent animals consistently because he is obsessed with genetic excellence within his breed type. He takes pride in his work and is not satisfied with anything but good dogs. Such a breeder will generally replace any produced dog that fails to meet the standard, because his name and his reputation are on the line. By contrast, a peddler doesn't care about what he produces, but I made a distinction between the two back in the beginning 

Hope this clarifies!

Jack


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> "The breeder on a small scale, one who works with one or two bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs he (SHE) can care for his (HER) breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he (SHE) can produce strong sound animals that can be trained."
> 
> Max v Stephanitz


Size does matter!


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> :rofl:
> Oy vey! So, you're saying that you had a large-scale kennel in which you had THIRTY to FORTY breeding dogs, yet you're making an assumption about yourself that someone on here would not know your dogs. What is THAT saying? Not everyone on this board is "exclusive" to GSDs.


I am not saying "someone" wouldn't know my dogs, I am saying she wouldn't.






GSDElsa said:


> :rofl:
> There are very few kennels, in my opinion, that excel at "large scale." Exceptions, sure. But managing 30 to 40 dogs is not easy, nor is finding enough excellent handlers to do so. There is no way the owner of the kennel is truly getting to know each and every one of the dogs and handling each on a daily basis to determine if it is suitable to be a bitch or a stud. Even excellent kennels like Eurosport who I consider to be "huge" breeders do not have 30 to 40 of their own breeding stock. They have about 6-7, and import the rest for sale.


I have already covered this, above.

Your own assumption is that all 30-40 dogs are breeding dogs. Top breeders have mostly pups and growing prospects on their yard, while they breed to their very best dogs. They also have many additional options through their customers.






GSDElsa said:


> :rofl:
> Perhaps there are amazing breeders out there that have numbers that large of breeding dogs. But I can say I have not ever come across a single one in which I think it better, or even comprable to, some of the smaller "hobby breeders" (as you call them) that have maybe only 3-4 dogs they are breeding.


That is a matter of your opinion. But it will always be *a matter of record* that the breeders who produce *the most champions/titled dogs* are those breeders who are full-timers, not part-timers.






GSDElsa said:


> :rofl:
> And certainly you youself would be hardpressed to argue that that many dogs are good...after all, you "burned out" after 20 years yourself trying to manage that many dogs. Hardly a long, full career in many job avenues and a blink of the eye in a breed's history. So....your 20 years and a burn out (which I'm sure had been happening over years...hardly good for your dogs), or someone with far fewer dogs who spends 40 years doing it and loves and cherishes every second of it.


Well, again you're making an a$$umption and are out in left field doing so. I stopped breeding dogs of my own breed choice, the pit bull, because I got tired of watching kennels-full of them get put down and destroyed by HSUS ... and I didn't want to be part of that statistic. I love my dogs, and would still have a yard full of them, if HSUS didn't have a $5,000 reward out for busting "dog fighting rings," which prompts any neighbor you have to drop a dime on you to try to get that money. I watched many lifetime breeders get their entire yards taken, get all of their dogs destroyed the next day (without due process) ... only to have their case dismissed 5 years later on *lack of evidence*. Didn't even make it to court. The media, law enforcement, etc. are all paid-for puppets of HSUS. And I didn't want all my dogs destroyed by the same BS HSUS agenda, so I stuck them with the very "small-timers" you're talking about. That was the only "stress" involved with breeding these dogs, not the dogs themselves.

A GS breeder doesn't suffer from the same media hysteria and canine racism. Yet it doesn't matter what breed of dog you're talking about, the best overall breeders will be the full-time dedicated breeders, not the part time ones.

Jack


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> And by the same token, just because it's in "your" hands, and you like its personality and therefore breed it, doesn't mean your dog has the working characteristics to earn the Schutzund I title ...





TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Yet it doesn't matter what breed of dog you're talking about, the best overall breeders will be the full-time dedicated breeders, not the part time ones.


:rofl:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by *onyx'girl*  
_What is the bloodline you produced?_



> Nothing you've ever heard of.





> Oy vey! So, you're saying that you had a large-scale kennel in which you had THIRTY to FORTY breeding dogs, yet you're making an assumption about yourself that someone on here would not know your dogs. What is THAT saying? Not everyone on this board is "exclusive" to GSDs.





TheLittleBlackBook said:


> I am not saying "someone" wouldn't know my dogs, I am saying she wouldn't.
> Jack


So you know me??? OK...


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> :rofl:


That was a highly-intelligent rebuttal.

Truly impressive.



.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Quote:
> So you know me??? OK...


What I know is that _if you don't know me_, then you don't know my dogs.

Who are you to the world of German shepherds? Anyone?

I just stop by various breed sites to talk dogs, I am no one in the GS community.

Could you please state a list of what you believe to be THE highest-titled GSDs alive right now, and then let me know if they came from full-time breeders or part-time breeders?

This might be illuminating for both of us,

Jack


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jack, as a new poster you come on quite strong on this board, giving your opinion as if it is the only way to do things. You stop by the various breed sites to stir things up and promote your signature DVD's and books...good for you~I wish you luck with your sales.

Does it matter WHO I am in the GSD world, I don't know bloodlines of Pitbulls...what were you breeding them for? What work did they do to prove their breedworthyness?
You can view the list of the GSD's that are participating in the world championships in Spain right now and the kennels they come from. I bet most of those dogs come from "hobby" breeders and not commercial kennels.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Jack, as a new poster you come on quite strong on this board, giving your opinion as if it is the only way to do things. You stop by the various breed sites to stir things up and promote your signature DVD's and books...good for you~I wish you luck with your sales.


Yes, I am promoting my book, but I am not trying to "stir things up," I just provide my opinion on any subject I feel passionate or knowledgeable about (and have quite a lot of experience in).






onyx'girl said:


> Does it matter WHO I am in the GSD world, I don't know bloodlines of Pitbulls...what were you breeding them for? What work did they do to prove their breedworthyness?


It does matter who you are in the GSD world, as one's success at something tends to add (or subtract) weight to/from their arguments. I bred my dogs for many different traits which are neither relevant, nor appropriate, for a GSD forum. The matters I will be discussing on this forum will be *universal principles* that apply to _all_ dogs, which will primarily center around health matters and breeding principles.






onyx'girl said:


> You can view the list of the GSD's that are participating in the world championships in Spain right now and the kennels they come from. I bet most of those dogs come from "hobby" breeders and not commercial kennels.


Where can I view this list and does it also list the kennels the dogs came from? I would be willing to bet quite a large sum that the best/most-titled dogs in the world come from professional breeders far more often than from hobbyists.

As a hobbyist yourself, are any of your dogs participating in this contest?

Jack


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I linked the partipating teams w/underlined word Spain in my post above.

Here is a link to a few videos of the Championship:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/144751-first-videos-wusv-2010-a-3.html


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I linked the partipating teams w/underlined word Spain in my post above.
> Here is a link to a few videos of the Championship:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/144751-first-videos-wusv-2010-a-3.html


Thank you Jane. And I am sorry if I came on too strong.

Most of the hobby breeders I know pretty much bought their dogs from full-time breeders, made a few breedings with the breeder's stock, and though they may have produced a few good dogs ... they never made a dent in the breed standard.

Actually, one of the breeders whose writings I most admire, is the late Mr. Lloyd C. Brackett, whose name I am sure needs no explanation to German shepherd fanciers.

Anway, I will read this link tonight, as I have to get busy with my day for now.

No hard feelings I hope; just stating my views on a touchy subject 

Jack


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> That was a highly-intelligent rebuttal.
> 
> Truly impressive.


Thank you, that is a comment I have never received before, as I am but a humble student of the GSD. Allow me to start by saying, I don’t know Jack about “Pit Bulls”, and the only thing I can say on the subject in absolute terms is that Pete makes me happy. 









A couple of other comments I am comfortable making in absolute terms; 

1.) a working line breeder would generally not breed a GSD until it had been determined breed worthy by accomplishing a title, so your “personality” comment was enjoyable!

2.) the notion you put forth regarding “full-time” breeders is entertainingly perpendicular to Capt. Max’s views.

I like you, you’re funny to me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You are comparing breeding hunting dogs and terriers to breeding GSDs. If you think that their are similarities universal to knowing a good terrier to knowing a good GSD, then that tells me that you are out of you element here. 

Terriers, 'coonhounds, other trailing/hunting/scenting dogs like Beagles, for example, are bred for their hunt drive, pack drive, and scenting ability, again important that a breeder maintains those talents in their dogs - how we all hate it when a pet breeder breeds labs, for example, for the average family, that won't retrieve, is gun-shy, and is afraid of water - very sad! 

But the hunting/scenting dogs you used as examples are bred to work independently. They follow their innate instincts (that need to be maintained by good breeding), and work in a pack. GSDs are bred to work with their human handlers, to be always attentive and directable, but to be able to work independently at a distance away from the handler when required, to think independently when required. A number of instincts and innate behaviours need to be finely balanced in a working GSD, and understanding the fine balance of those different drives and on how to improve one area and tone down another cannot be achieved by just sending the dog away for titling. 
The titling process is a time-consuming training process during which much knowledge about the dog is achieved - what was easy for to learn for this dog, what was hard? How much stress can the dog take and carry on, and so on. Sending the dog away for titling misses this important step, and you loose on gaining that experience with that dog - so saying that getting someone else to train and title the dog, and then tell you about it is the same - to me, is not. Personal experience is just that - personal - it cannot be replicated by talking to someone else. I can be on this board and others 24 hours a day, and read everything that people post about training their dog in Schutzhund, but it still will not, and never will replace the experience I am gaining from training my own dogs in Schutzund. 

I kinda find it sad that to you the difference between a puppy mill and a commercial kennel is success . . . successful as in making more money? Bringing you recognition? where are all those dogs now? What performance venues where they participating where they earned all those titles? You avoid the question, talk of titles but not of what the dogs where trained for and what titles they earned? 

And it depends on how you define success too. I guess money and recognition is one way to define it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think some of the confusion is between a BYB (backyard breeder) compared to a commercial breeder compared to a 'responsible' smaller breeder (that most of us fully support).

RESPONSIBLE OR BYB ?

While clearly the longer you breed and more litters under your belt, you should (hopefully) be getting more knowledge and experience. To me you can do this with only one or two litters a year and dogs you train yourself and are also in your home. 

So it's a BALANCE of being proactive to listen, learn and educate yourself constantly on your chosen breed. Then using that for each breeding, learning from past litters while constantly trying to improve and tweak your own breeding program.

With the GSD temperment so important, really having a hands on attitude for all the adult dogs in the program PLUS on each puppy in the litter to be able to analyze and match up puppy owner/background/experience with each puppy in the litter.

PLUS...

One of my main differences between a responsible breeder and one that is not is in the Puppy Warranty. The part that the breeder is ALWAYS responsible for their puppies forever and if an issue comes up they will take the puppy OR adult dog back in a red hot second to either live IN THEIR HOME for the rest of it's life, or they will find a great forever home.

I just don't feel any huge commercial breeder is able to do the same with so many puppies. And I will never give .01 cent to any breeder who will otherwise end up with dogs from their breeding program in a kill shelter or if they do take it back in an outdoor kennel for it's lifetime.

Too many dogs in the USA. *Millions killed each and every year in the USA. * If a breeder isn't able to limit the number of their dogs to be able to always be responsible and ASSURE (as best as they can) that they will be able to give their dogs the best life they can FOREVER, then they aren't a breeder I will support.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Nothing you've ever heard of.


A super-secret FBI kennel breeding dogs with frickin' laser beams on their heads!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Emoore said:


> A super-secret FBI kennel breeding dogs with frickin' laser beams on their heads!


 :spittingcoffee:

If I wasn't just taking a quick work break, I would so be photoshopping right now.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Thank you Jane. And I am sorry if I came on too strong.
> 
> Most of the hobby breeders I know pretty much bought their dogs from full-time breeders, made a few breedings with the breeder's stock, and though they may have produced a few good dogs ... they never made a dent in the breed standard.
> 
> ...


It is always nice to chat with someone with a differing view point. I think you will find this type of post will leave people more open to hearing you out and discussing it cordially than some of your earlier ones.


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## myripchoco (Oct 22, 2010)

Max von Stephanitz on commercial breeding:

_Dog breeding must be done by a dog-lover and cannot be a profession. The work of breeding service dogs must be the work of dog-lovers, (such as) the Shepherd with sheep breeds as a dog lover, for they have the desire to breed for exemplery, efficient and useful dogs.


The dog bred as a business is no longer bred for his service to the breed, but for his market value. The direction of the breed then is dictated by the desires of the market, usually Novices to the breed, who knows nor cares (nothing) of the weal and woes of the breed, knows nothing of the value or aptitude for work...he often only has eyes for Imposing, Remarkable and even a Ruffling Swashbuckler.

The breeder on a small scale, one who works with 1 or 2 bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals & their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong sound animals that can be trained.

Breeding on a large scale and in a Kennel is the ruin of all sound shepherd dog breeding. It is not possible to keep shepherd dogs in 'herds'...his master must be able to be busy with him, especially as a young dog

A dog raised in a kennel craves to escape from such crass stupidity into liberty, the presence of people,...to play & work (and) causes a state of continuous exasperation that frets at their nerves...many acquire a craze for purposeless actions...often harmful to themselves,

The Internationalism of The Big Bank Balance has been the downfall of the Shepherd Dog.
_


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Emoore said:


> A super-secret FBI kennel breeding dogs with frickin' laser beams on their heads!


:laugh: That's great!!!

But thinking more on the discussion Jack (or is it John?), you have a lot of good points - there are large commercial GSD breeders that consistently produce good dogs - especially in Europe, and you are right that many of the successful smaller breeders started out with breeding dogs acquired from the larger, commercial kennels. 

I think the issue where people disagree, is your assertion that being a large commercial kennel makes for a better breeder than being a small hobby breeder based on dogs available for breeding, and based on volume of dogs coming out of the kennel that are successful in their chosen field - but that really depends on what the breeder is breeding for. 

I you are breeding Greyhounds, and have 80 dogs in your kennels, you take the fastest dogs with no known health issues in the line, and breed them, and you end up with wicked fast dogs! (well, you hope, anyways) -but that is only one variable that is being selected for. 

When breeding for working/service dogs, there are such a multiple of variables to select for, that intimately knowing the dogs you are breeding is becomes much more critical - and can better be accomplished through small breeding operations, where the dogs live and train and work and interact not only with the owner/breeder, but with many different people too on a regular basis.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jack is making an amazing amount of sense. How refreshing!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, pay close attention to Jack's comments about HSUS. A Puppy Mill is what they define it to be and what laws they get passed using that term to elicit emotions vs "thinking" from the general public. For AR people, a puppy mill is ANYONE who breeds. The sooner you "dog people" realize that, the safer our dogs will be.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Often I feel the difference between a puppy mill and commercial breeder (for better or worse) is whether or not the AR agenda is attached...

I guess I'm not as harsh on the "commercial breeder" thing as some. Really, anyone who sells a dog is "commercial". Some breeders don't work a day job, they spend their day training and caring for their dogs. I don't care if they sell enough nice puppies to cover the cost of living. There's a difference between breeding dogs well and just being exploitative. As a buyer I look more to the dogs - the genetics, the health, their accomplishments - than rank breeders based on their balance sheets.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)




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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Thanks, Doc, for being good. This time...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Now facing the "puppy mills" being used by AR to further agenda in my state. Ugh! These people use abused animals to make money and to further their AR agenda. Not my kinda animal advocates in any way.

I find it is difficult to define what "type" of breeder a person is. It takes some time and experience in dog world to begin to sort things out. Even then it is really a personal decision as to what breeders you want to support. I find myself much less worried about defining breeders than I am about the right to breed animals in general these days.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't know  about "pitbulls" other than there are way more of them than homes for them and they are being ruined more than any other breed by irresponsible breeding and ownership.

I'm wondering what the point of a commercial kennel of APBTs would be. The breed is not highly sought after for police/military work, service work, or (legal) dog sports. What good is it to breed "great" dogs if they have no purpose? 20yrs and 30-40 breeding dogs is thousands of dogs and for what? A great hobby breeder could have produced great dogs as well but in a way that doesn't lead to thousands of unwanted dogs.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Andaka said:


> Thanks, Doc, for being good. This time...


You're welcome. This time :angel:

Andaka - Zederland Valkyrie :wub:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> What good is it to breed "great" dogs if they have no purpose?


For the people dedicated to the breed, they do have a purpose. In fact, a new sport is being developed FOR the Pit Bull, to show their strength and versatility in various avenues.

There are MANY of them participating in Weight Pulls as well.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

When Dayna received her TDI, the therapy dog next to her was a "Pit Bull"...the type that looks like a body builder...just ripped!!! and one of the sweetest dogs spreading cheer in a hospital wing.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Doc said:


> You're welcome. This time :angel:
> 
> Andaka - Zederland Valkyrie :wub:


Thanks, Doc. She is a spoiled little love bug who lives with my sister as a watch dog and deterent to bad guys in her neighborhood.

But back on topic, I have had my share of success with just a few dogs that lived in the house, went to dog shows, and performance trials. Because of only having a few dogs at a time, I was able to have one of the most widely titled dogs of his time, and another was the #2 show GSD in the country in 2004.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack, you said you are not interested in show dogs. But then you mentioned champions. I was just at a little party of some major GSD show people watching the nationals. These people have champions, and one owns a previous Grand Victrix out of his breeding. I have been to their homes, some of them. I see four to eight dogs, not forty. 

And, we do not breed our two doggies together. A hobbyist will find the right stud for their bitch and then pay a stud fee. Some keep dogs, but that does not mean they only use their dogs for their bitches. 

The problem with the two bitch theory, is if you are trying to produce excellent dogs, how can you hold back puppies, that would push you over the two bitch limit. And what do you do with the dog whose owner gave it back to you? Does it bump one of your two bitches, so you can give it a forever home? 

I think if you are going to breed seriously, you are going to have the dogs you have bred or intend to breed, progeny of your breeders that you are raising and training as they develop, possibly a returned dog that you will have to heal, train, socialize, work with before you can attempt to rehome, and you will have dogs that have either been retired from your breeding program or have dropped out of your program for one reason or another. You might find homes for these, or keep them. But Every dog you keep boosts your number of dogs, and reduces the amount of time you spend with each individual.

It is about balance.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Somebody brought up the WUSV as a criteria of excellence. I think if you analyzed where these dogs (participating in WUSV) came from, you would find most came from Europe. If you would look at the kennels they came from in Europe, I don't think most would be small hobby breeders. I think many would be European commercial breeders. So there is a disconnect somewhere???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Cliff, I linked it-because of this question:


> Could you please state a list of what you believe to be THE highest-titled GSDs alive right now, and then let me know if they came from full-time breeders or part-time breeders?


The WUSV is supposedly the best in the world of GSD's at this time. Maybe not in everyones opinion, but they would not be invited to compete if they(and their handlers) were not something very special.
And yes, many are from Europe where the standards are different for raising dogs...
this thread is about puppy mills vs commercial kennels and I think it got sidelined. Which is fine as many aspects of breeding were brought up. 
But the "best of the best" certainly are not coming from puppy mills. 
And some of those competing may be coming from smaller "hobby" breeding kennels and not commercial kennels.
I doubt any millers are concerned with bloodlines or pedigrees at all, the almighty $$ is their only concern.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> Thank you, that is a comment I have never received before, as I am but a humble student of the GSD. Allow me to start by saying, I don’t know Jack about “Pit Bulls”, and the only thing I can say on the subject in absolute terms is that Pete makes me happy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well, glad you like me 

I don't know who Capt. Max is, but I don't base my viewpoints on what I've read from someone else, but from my own experience and observations. Plus, it is just basic logic: anyone who does something full-time is going to have more experience and knowledge at that "something" than will a part-timer. I don't care if you're talking tennis, playing the guitar, racecar driving, woodworking, whatever. The person who devotes his life to something, and does it for a profession, will be *light years* more capable and knowledgeable at that "something" than will a part-time hobbyist.

Some of you seem to have a severe mental block and keep confusing a puppy mill (someone who just sells "dogs" for money) and a professional breeder (someone who has dedicated his/her life to _perfecting a breed type_, and who sells their fine animals for money).

The hobby breeder is certainly a preferable alternative to a puppy mill, but the hobby breeder will never hold a candle to the professional breeder. He may produce an occasional excellent animal too ... but that is only because the hobby breeder (in all probability) got his own foundation dogs from a professional breeder 

Jack


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> It is always nice to chat with someone with a differing view point. I think you will find this type of post will leave people more open to hearing you out and discussing it cordially than some of your earlier ones.


Point well-made.


.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> But thinking more on the discussion Jack (or is it John?), you have a lot of good points - there are large commercial GSD breeders that consistently produce good dogs - especially in Europe, and you are right that many of the successful smaller breeders started out with breeding dogs acquired from the larger, commercial kennels.


Exactly. The more you think about it, the more you will see I have merely spoken the truth.








Castlemaid said:


> I think the issue where people disagree, is your assertion that being a large commercial kennel makes for a better breeder than being a small hobby breeder based on dogs available for breeding, and based on volume of dogs coming out of the kennel that are successful in their chosen field - but that really depends on what the breeder is breeding for.


Well, the small hobby breeder can produce good dogs too (after all, he bought his dogs from the professional), but he just will not be able to do so on as large a scale. Further, he owes the quality of his own dogs TO the professional breeder from whom all hobby breeders invariably purchase their stock.






Castlemaid said:


> I you are breeding Greyhounds, and have 80 dogs in your kennels, you take the fastest dogs with no known health issues in the line, and breed them, and you end up with wicked fast dogs! (well, you hope, anyways) -but that is only one variable that is being selected for.


Exactly. But it is not just "one" variable that is being selected for, though I do agree with your point.






Castlemaid said:


> When breeding for working/service dogs, there are such a multiple of variables to select for, that intimately knowing the dogs you are breeding is becomes much more critical - and can better be accomplished through small breeding operations, where the dogs live and train and work and interact not only with the owner/breeder, but with many different people too on a regular basis.


I also agree with this statement in spirit. But the thing about it is, a truly professional breeder *works with his dogs*. He brings the pups in and works with them, he assesses their drive, their intelligence, etc.

Most "hobby breeders" go to work and only see their dogs when they come home. The professional breeder is out there with his dogs all day long. No, not every doggie gets to sleep in bed, LOL, but that does not mean every dog hasn't been given daily attention and work. I usually had 4 senior dogs in-house, and would bring the pups in to get socialized and "follow the leaders" like ducklings. I found this was the quickest way that the pups learned, by following and watching well-socialized adults 

I agree with you that _for the dog_, it's better to have one-on-one attention from an owner. No one could argue that. But the paradox is a person with only "one dog" is never going to make much of a breeder.

Jack


.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Vandal said:


> Jack is making an amazing amount of sense. How refreshing!


Why thank you 

.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Well, glad you like me
> 
> I don't know who Capt. Max is, but I don't base my viewpoints on what I've read from someone else, but from my own experience and observations. .........................................Jack


I know you don't breed GSD's but that is just a teeny bit funny to see on a GSD board! And though you may never base your viewpoint on what you've read from someone else, you may (just may :wub take a quick look on the following site to just GENERALLY read up on why Capt. Max was mentioned. (short read with pictures so won't take more than a few minutes) 

The German Shepherd Dog, breed history

GSD History - German shepherd dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have read the definition of puppy mill that some of you feel, I think look at large breeding operations like Eurosport, Jinopo, Creative Kennels, and I don't see a lot of difference. Yet, I WOULD buy a dog from any of those operations in a minute.....just me!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The difference is those kennels do care about bloodlines and pedigrees...a puppy mill does not.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know you don't breed GSD's but that is just a teeny bit funny to see on a GSD board! And though you may never base your viewpoint on what you've read from someone else, you may (just may :wub take a quick look on the following site to just GENERALLY read up on why Capt. Max was mentioned. (short read with pictures so won't take more than a few minutes)
> The German Shepherd Dog, breed history
> GSD History - German shepherd dog


 
Hello again, and thank you for the links. I will read them later this evening. 

I have no problem admitting my ignorance on any subject, when it's pointed out. I humbly admit I am ignorant on virtually all of _the specifics_ of what top working German shepherds are bred for as well as who breeds top shepherds. 

But what I *do* know are the fundamental principles of breeding dogs and establishing a line of dogs that is able to stand the test of time, and I also know what kind of dedication it takes to build that kind of excellence in a bloodline of dogs. I also possess the kind of health and medical knowledge about dogs that 99.99% of even top breeders (of any breed) do not have.

You will find I am as quick to admit my ignorance, when justified, as I am to assert my knowledge, when justified.

You also will find I am the type of person to help anyone with a dog in need, any time, whether it is one of my dogs or not.

Anyway, my girlfriend and I are getting ready to go up to St. Marks, FL for the weekend to enjoy the migrating Monarch butterflies---so hope yall have a great weekend.

Jack


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> The difference is those kennels do care about bloodlines and pedigrees...a puppy mill does not.


 
Agreed.

The other difference is truly professional breeders are obsessed with maintaining (and improving) *quality* in their dogs.

Take care,


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> The difference between puppy mill and a commercial kennel is *success*.
> 
> One kennel produces useless dogs that can't do anything, while the other produces actual working dogs that can and do _excel at their jobs_.
> 
> ...


Finally made it through the whole thread, and I think it is this statement that I have a problem with as I do with most blanket statements.

Saying that ALL hobby breeders only care about having pups and know nothing about genetics is IMO inaccurate. This would be a much better definition of a BYB.

There are many hobby breeders, some on this forum who are extremely knowledgable about genetics and bloodlines and they ARE producing not only dogs that are earning working titles but ones who are actually working in herding, SAR, drug detection, police K-9...

Discussing if a full time commercial kennel is better than a hobby breader is a completely different story, and IMO much more relevant than just saying all hobby breeders are crap (yes, I am paraphrasing).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay, I'm just basing what I read about commercial kennels in the beginning of this thread and the impression I would get is not that favorable. I only read negative things that they don't do that would make them unacceptable to some. Though I am confused I think I understand.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Okay, I'm just basing what I read about commercial kennels in the beginning of this thread and the impression I would get is not that favorable. I only read negative things that they don't do that would make them unacceptable to some. Though I am confused I think I understand.


I think a lot of the problem in this thread is what people are calling "commercial kennels." It's the skematics...there is a difference between a kennel that does it full time as a job and a kennel that had good bloodlines yet still has the behavior a-la puppy mill (using a name to back up sales without producing genuinely sound dogs, not working with the dogs individually, etc). I can think of a couple "BIG" names is the WGSL world that seem to fall under this category. 

The way I'M thinking of "commerical breeder" in this thread is esentially the puppy brokers of GSD's out there. And I think this is the way many people are thinking of the term as well. I really don't think that anyone is arguing that because a kennel has a lot of dogs and does it full time that they aren't good breeders. I DO think it makes them a bad breeder if they get so big that the kennel owner(s) is no longer taking a truly active role in each dog and are simply using a big name to sell more mediocre dogs than excellent ones for the almighty dollar.

There are quite a few kennels that come to mind that fall under this category.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay???!!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> I don't know who Capt. Max is, but I don't base my viewpoints on what I've read from someone else, but from my own experience and observations.


Buddy, that's like walking into a Christian church and saying, "I don't know who this Moses guy is or these Peter and Paul characters are, but I don't base my viewpoints on what I've read from someone else,". . . and then you proceed to try and argue Christian theology.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, good comparison, and here I thought you were going to say, "Not sure who these Peter, Paul, and Mary, people are but..."


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> here I thought you were going to say, "Not sure who these Peter, Paul, and Mary, people are but...


I thought the same thing!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Capt. Max wrote the equivalent of "The Little Black Book" of German Shepherd breeding, raising and training 100 years ago as part of his life-long work of founding and establishing the breed standard for the German Shepherd Dog. 

Oh look! First American edition!  

1E German Shepherd Dog Word Picture: Stephanitz 1923 - eBay (item 200277725747 end time Nov-08-10 19:57:22 PST)

Yours for ONLY 1500$!!! 

But you can get re-prints for a more reasonable amount, thank goodness!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> LOL, good comparison, and here I thought you were going to say, "Not sure who these Peter, Paul, and Mary, people are but..."


Lol, so far as scholars can tell, Mary didn't actually write any of the Bible. Moses, Peter, and Paul did. Thus my choice of those three.


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## myripchoco (Oct 22, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Oh look! First American edition!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, now that's just silly. I just bought a 1st edition from an old book store 2 weeks ago for $3.50. Though it's a bit worn


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

myripchoco said:


> LOL, now that's just silly. I just bought a 1st edition from an old book store 2 weeks ago for $3.50. Though it's a bit worn


I would _so _sell that on ebay.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Buddy, that's like walking into a Christian church and saying, "I don't know who this Moses guy is or these Peter and Paul characters are, but I don't base my viewpoints on what I've read from someone else,". . . and then you proceed to try and argue Christian theology.


Well, let's look at your rant a bit deeper.

First of all, if you actually studied theology, you would realize there is almost _nothing new_ in Christian doctrine;

Secondly, the basic principles of effective living were in existence long before Christianity ever surfaced. There are many other religious sects that teach decent ideologies for effective human living and morality that are in harmony with the best teachings of Christianity.

Third, just because somebody isn't Christian (or hasn't read the bible) doesn't mean that person isn't a moral or pious individual, nor does it mean what that person says as no relevance to a Christian.

In closing, there have have been fine, moral people who lived long before Christ was born, and there are millions of fine, moral people of other cultures in this world today who have never read the bible.

In short, your "point" is actually _the opposite_ of the truth, as there are thousands people from other religious cultures who can and do offer any person (who is willing to listen) uncountable tidbits of time-proven wisdom.

Christians surely don't have a lock on "being good" ... and neither do GSD breeders have a lock on correct breeding principles.

Jack


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> doesn't mean that person isn't a moral or pious individual


Now just what IS piety?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Christians surely don't have a lock on "being good" ... and *neither do GSD breeders have a lock on correct breeding principles*.
> 
> Jack


This is a GSD board. I and I'm assuming others in this thread unless specifically saying otherwise are talking about breeding GSDs. Capt. Max wrote the book/Bible on breeding GSDs and what the breed should be. I'm not sure what the confusion is. Breeding standards are different for every breed. IMO though, just like GSDs set the bar for other dog breeds GSD breeders set the bar for other breeders.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Well, let's look at your rant a bit deeper.
> 
> First of all, if you actually studied theology, you would realize there is almost _nothing new_ in Christian doctrine;
> 
> ...


Dude, sounds like you like to scrap. 

Captain Max Von Stephanitz is the founder of the German Shepherd Dog breed. Saying you do not care what he thinks to a bunch of GSD people, is the same as not caring about what Moses, Peter, and Paul wrote to a bunch of Christians. 

That statement was not set up to start a conversation about religion. So please get over yourself and find some other forum to start trouble on.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

selzer said:


> LOL, good comparison, and here I thought you were going to say, "Not sure who these Peter, Paul, and Mary, people are but..."












opcorn:


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> ... and neither do GSD breeders have a lock on correct breeding principles.


I think working line GSD breeders who traditionally train & title their own dogs in herding or schutzhund have a "lock" on specifics that are not common to the correct breeding principles of dogs.

I am asking because I genuinely do not know.....is there a breed of dog that requires a working title to be considered breed worthy as compared to GSDs?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

opcorn: all I have to say is YIKES!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

If you read the history, you will discover that Max was not a good breeder and depended on the breeders in various regions in Germany to "create" what he had in mind. Particularly the breeders from the Bravarian region. So although he is credited as the Father of the German Shepherd, the creator of the original standard, he himself was a lousy breeder.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

TheLittleBlackBook said:


> Well, let's look at your rant a bit deeper.
> 
> First of all, if you actually studied theology, you would realize there is almost _nothing new_ in Christian doctrine;
> 
> ...


Wow, you totally missed that analogy. The point was that getting on a GSD forum and completely discounting anything that Max said isn't going to win you any friends.

I don't think it is a stretch to assume that you are on the forum to not only discuss breeding, but promote your book. So far, you have insulted the majority of GSD breeders on here (wouldn't they be your target market?) by calling them ignorant and questioning their motives and alienated the GSD lovers who are just interested in breeding information by insinuating that your opinion is more important than the founder of the breed that they love.

I am thinking you MIGHT want to reconsider your marketing strategy. :blush:

:headbang:


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Doc said:


> If you read the history, you will discover that Max was not a good breeder and depended on the breeders in various regions in Germany to "create" what he had in mind. Particularly the breeders from the Bravarian region. So although he is credited as the Father of the German Shepherd, the creator of the original standard, he himself was a lousy breeder.


Max doesn't just look like Uncle Fester, he is an idea guy...a dog visionary...the canine stategic thinker....the CEO of Shepherds who organized chaos into a breed, motivated the breeders of the day to follow a standard, established a breed worthiness test that cultivated a market in military/law enforcement during a time when flocks of sheep were in decline and the future of herding was fading. I am ok with the notion he sucked as a breeder.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

at least he wasn't a miller...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The little black book guy does not even know his name, I do not think he could possibly know whether or not he suckes as a breeder.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> at least he wasn't a miller...


And he had a real vision in what he wanted to create, above and beyond cute puppies and nice pets . . .


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And after all this rhetoric, we STILL don't know what Jack's (John's?) Pit Bulls were bred _for_! Not one example of what kind of titles and championships his dogs earned!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> And after all this rhetoric, we STILL don't know what Jack's (John's?) Pit Bulls were bred _for_! Not one example of what kind of titles and championships his dogs earned!


He could at least give the name of his kennel instead of "you wouldn't know" 
Anyone could read a bit and join a board claiming to have been a successful breeder but without proof its just hot air


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> He could at least give the name of his kennel instead of "you wouldn't know"
> Anyone could read a bit and join a board claiming to have been a successful breeder but without proof its just hot air


My guess would be Vice Grip Kennels - search the pit bulls forums under his name, names of his books (The Pit Bull Bible) and the kennel, draw your own conclusions.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> My guess would be Vice Grip Kennels - search the pit bulls forums under his name, names of his books (The Pit Bull Bible) and the kennel, draw your own conclusions.


Yeah I did, wasn't too happy with what I found - but with all the secrecy surrounding his kennel, his dogs, and what his dogs actually excelled at, I wasn't expecting to find obedience and agility champions in his lines. 

Quite a few names on the internet if others are interested in googling: Jack Koerner, John Koerner, and California Jack.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Reading through other breeds forums cracks me up. It's amazing the differences in the attitudes and general feel to the threads versus over here. I mean, can you imagine what would happen to someone if they started posting about culling a dog? Oh dear......

Seriously night and day. Which proves even more of a point that LBB doesn't really hold a candle in earning anyone's respect here. The two breeds and how to breed them are not even remotely comparable.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> Max doesn't just look like Uncle Fester, he is an idea guy...a dog visionary...the canine stategic thinker....the CEO of Shepherds who organized chaos into a breed, motivated the breeders of the day to follow a standard, established a breed worthiness test that cultivated a market in military/law enforcement during a time when flocks of sheep were in decline and the future of herding was fading. I am ok with the notion he sucked as a breeder.


Max was kicked out of the Army for his choice in a wife - a "lower" class individual in the eyes of the elite Germans; was a spoiled "rich" boy who got his rank based on his family's bank account; he saw a herding dog while sitting on mountain; he established *his* organization (built entirely to satisfy his ego) and pissed off all the other founders to the point that they walked out and Capt. Max ran rough-shot over anyone who challenged him. The gentle farmers/breeders went back to their world and took their dogs and breeding knowledge with them. So from an organizational stand point he was instrumental in the "creation" of the German shepherd - he was a horrible breeder and even moved to Bravaria where he could be close to the best breeders in Germany - namely the Krone Kennel in Wurttemberg.

Breeding is a science and an art, not a personality. Max had a caustic personality and a lack of knowledge in the science and art of breeding.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Doc said:


> Max was kicked out of the Army for his choice in a wife - a "lower" class individual in the eyes of the elite Germans; was a spoiled "rich" boy who got his rank based on his family's bank account; he saw a herding dog while sitting on mountain; he established *his* organization (built entirely to satisfy his ego) and pissed off all the other founders to the point that they walked out and Capt. Max ran rough-shot over anyone who challenged him. The gentle farmers/breeders went back to their world and took their dogs and breeding knowledge with them. So from an organizational stand point he was instrumental in the "creation" of the German shepherd - he was a horrible breeder and even moved to Bravaria where he could be close to the best breeders in Germany - namely the Krone Kennel in Wurttemberg.
> 
> Breeding is a science and an art, not a personality. Max had a caustic personality and a lack of knowledge in the science and art of breeding.


 
For me.....regardless of your recollections from when you used to hang with Uncle Fester, I remain enamored with what Max accomplished, or is credited with accomplishing, and the strategic direction that was established one hundred plus years ago when breed worthiness was augmented by establishing schutzhund in addition to herding. I appreciate how intertwined the GSD is with herding/schutzhund and the tradition of what it means to the breed, along with my admiration for the working aspect of what it means to breed GSDs.

So Doc, what is your point?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill

Yeah, I'm sure Stephanitz had enemies on his time, but the fact that the GSD is now one of the most popular breeds in the world and the most versatile one proves that maybe... justmaybe... he was right.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> For me.....regardless of your recollections from when you used to hang with Uncle Fester, I remain enamored with what Max accomplished, or is credited with accomplishing, and the strategic direction that was established one hundred plus years ago when breed worthiness was augmented by establishing schutzhund in addition to herding. I appreciate how intertwined the GSD is with herding/schutzhund and the tradition of what it means to the breed, along with my admiration for the working aspect of what it means to breed GSDs.
> 
> So Doc, what is your point?


My point? MAX WASN'T A BREEDER. Is that clear enough for you? And I do remember hanging around the arrogant SOB! The breeders from Wurtemberg were wonderful and really made the dog what it is today - not Max. Max organized it and created the blueprint. He would not take advice from breeders, herders, farmers with working dogs in his decisions but depended on the knowledge of breeders to create "his" dog. he deserves credit for his ability (?) to recycle an organization dedicated to working shepherds but as far as being the person that actually produced these dogs .... NFW could he do it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And now his vision is on the verge of being ruined by oversized dogs breeding and low drive to make the pet market happy.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> And now his vision is on the verge of being ruined by oversize breeding and low drive to make the pet market happy.


Yeah, all those money hungry greedy BYBers. What are we going to do with them?

It's a shame the standard has been rewritten so many times and Max's Official Stud Book never recorded a stud that was used if it was too tall. I think many would be surprised at what was used to create Max's shepherd dogs. But that's history and knowledge that isn't acceptable - but it happened. 

Genetic diversity - what ever happened to that? Schwabian, Thurngiana and Wurttember dogs were all used to create Max's dog. And they all contained very different shapes, sizes, and characteristics. Wurtember dogs were bigger than the standard but were used in the early breedings; therefore, there are oversized genes in the pool weather anyone likes it or not. 

There are alot of folks in here with oversized dogs. And there are even breeders that adhere to the standard but would mate a pair even if they know the results would be an oversized dog. I guess Max would have a lot of us black-listed if he were still around.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> And now his vision is on the verge of being ruined by oversized dogs breeding and low drive to make the pet market happy.


Or nervy little mental cases that drag their rump around or working dogs that are kicked around after performing on a field because they didn't obey.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You know, I am not convinced every time someone says, Max says this and Max says that. It is good to have a basic knowledge about the history and original purpose of the dog, and what the forefathers were thinking. 

But having a breeder of bird dogs or sight hounds or toys or fighting breeds come on and say he could care less about what the founder of our breed has to say, that is another matter altogether.

The idea that an ideal breeder would have just two bitches is simply out there in my opinion. Four bitches? that sounds better. I think that there are people who want to stick by whatever this guy says just because who he is but they make it completely impossible to move forward or to exist at all really. 

They say you must take dogs back.
But have only two bitches.
You need to be breeding with the expectation of keeping one of the puppies
But have only two bitches.
You must keep dogs forever and never rehome.
But have only two bitches.
You must not breed anything with any problem whatsoever.
And not rehome.
And not euthanize.
And not cull.
And have only two bitches.

With this mindset, the excellent German Shepherd Dog breeders would breed one litter in ten years, maybe. 

The breed will go to the BYBs and Puppy Millers.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Doc said:


> Or nervy little mental cases that drag their rump around or working dogs that are kicked around after performing on a field because they didn't obey.


Well, if someone kicks their dog, that has nothing to do with the breeder. 
The odd dog that is over the standard is not the issue, as it has been pointed out a bazillion times, it is breeders who insist on the "bigger is better" breeding mentality without consideration to other working temperament, which is very misunderstood by the pet breeders. 

So some large dogs where used in the early breedings, okay. But there is still a standard that was aimed for, and the size brought down with successive breedings to what was more appropriate for a working dog (i.e. medium size).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Oh good grief. This has been a bumpy, up and down thread with some pretty hefty opinions but also some good debate and food for thought. But now it's headed down a path that's been well worn and really doesn't need to be trodden yet again, especially since it takes things even further off topic of commercial/professional/mill breeding. So I'm closing the thread before the nastiness really starts.

-Admin


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