# WGR (+ DDR/Czech) Pedigree Questions



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Would really like to hear from Cliff, Christine, Chris, Lee, Lisa, Sue, Jklatsky, Carmspack and anyone else able to give me input on this pedigree and answer/speculate on a few specific questions. 

Here is the 6 generation pedigree

6 generation pedigree for Qodiak vom HausReid

I know several members on this forum have already given input on the dam a while back 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../140040-feelings-pedigree-rackwitz-meute.html

But I would like to hear about the sire's side and this breeding specifically. 

This is basically West German working lines, but with DDR on the dam's side (M litter v Schwarzhorn and Gleisdreieck dogs with Lord further back) and a bit of Czech on the sire's side (Cent An-Sat who is littermate to Cordon An-Sat). 

Here is what I have heard - the sire has been known to produce a fair degree of sharpness. I do not know about the other dogs in the pedigree, but I have heard that Cordon An-Sat was also known to produce sharper dogs. Does anyone recognize any of the other dogs among the more recent generations that may have passed down this trait? 

Also, while I would say that this litter is probably more suited for sport, rather than strictly companionship or real work, I also would like to know if the pedigree may point to a dog with all around, real working potential, and what dogs contribute to that and what dogs may contribute to the more "sportier" qualities. The prey drive is high and thresholds are relatively low, and as far as being "locked in prey" (referring to Cliff's thread), well, his attention can be diverted but he has also been known to tune me out if a cat that's running by gets his attention first - but this seems limited to just cats outside the house (I actually believe the pedigree is Fero and Troll free). However, he is also becoming a more serious dog in maturity, showing the signs of being able to assess a situation and act accordingly. 

Would really appreciate it if anyone can share their analysis, experience, or thoughts or even just confirm something. I'd be happy to hear if I completely off base with anything as well! Hoping to learn from this.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Interesting. He has some very strong mother lines though there is some show stuff mixed in here and there. Have you seen the dog in question? At two, you should be able to evaluate the dog for your needs based on him.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Lisa - Thank you for responding! This is actually my dog Trent  I was looking for thoughts not because I am looking for another dog, but so I can learn and apply what I have read and heard. 

I did not realize Trent was part show lines! May I ask which dogs specifically?

I did not mention this was Trent initially because I didn't want anyone to have reservations when it comes to picking the pedigree apart. I want to hear the full of everyone's speculations/experiences/thoughts.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am not sure I would call him part showlines. He just carries some lines in places I don't like to see them.  I'm kind of picky that way.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

What dogs are you considering to be show lines?


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Lisa, could you please elaborate? Like I said before, I don't mind hearing any negative opinions. He is not a working or competitive sport prospect either way and was bought as a pet/companion and that's what he does best! I really just see this as a learning tool for me and anyone else interested. Would truly love to hear your thoughts and experiences as I value your opinion a great deal.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As I said, this is a personal choice. I don't want to see Canto Wienerau or anything going back on him. He is hard to avoid, but the less there is the better. Yes, these dogs are back a little ways. 

V Vello von Unterhain is out of Canto weak sister, Cilly. 

V1(BSZS) Dando aus Nordrheinland I know he was crossed a lot with working lines to bring improvement in structure, but he has far too many lines back to Canto for my tastes. 

There are more, but I have the flu and I am finding looking at the computer screen unpleasant. This is a personal choice and I am sure people will disagree with me. 


On a positive, he has some really strong mother lines through Matsch Bungalow (I am doing a breeding with linebreeding on Matsch (great dog that brought excellent aggression), Freia Lindenhalle, Afra Stoppenberger Land, Lady vom Salztalblick
, just to name a few.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I like the pedigree a lot because of the diversity in the lines and some really really nice working dogs in the pedigree. Not a pedigree for uniformity, but certainly one for working dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lisa, when you get to feeling better (which I hope is soon!) could you elaborate on what you dislike about Canto?


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> As I said, this is a personal choice. I don't want to see Canto Wienerau or anything going back on him. He is hard to avoid, but the less there is the better. Yes, these dogs are back a little ways.
> 
> V Vello von Unterhain is out of Canto weak sister, Cilly.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lisa, I appreciate it. Hope you are feeling better soon!! 



cliffson1 said:


> I like the pedigree a lot because of the diversity in the lines and some really really nice working dogs in the pedigree. Not a pedigree for uniformity, but certainly one for working dogs.


Glad you chimed in Cliff! I know you mentioned before that there are some lines favored for sport and others favored for actual work in this pedigree. 

I think this litter produced dogs that are versatile as well - Trent has good nerves from what I have seen, and as the "pet quality" dog of the litter his prey drive is more moderate than that of many, but he possesses a certain degree of sharpness, a very natural instinct for protection and appropriate aggression (the ability to judge a situation and act accordingly) but also he can turn off and on and listen to direction even with a perceived threat presented before him in a real life situation. Because of this, I believed that under a better handler there may be a potential for a dog like him to be a sport dog, working dog, or companion dog. Of course there are plenty of faults - not as biddable as the ideal GSD should be, rather poor impulse control, low thresholds (although I know some people will not see it as a fault), etc. 

Does this description surprise you, or do you think you can see where the genetics came into play? If you have the time, could you describe the pros and cons of this combination as a whole? This dog is not yet mature (at 2 years old) and I would be interested in hearing what one may or may not see.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry Trent, some people get twisted when I go into depth on a pedigree so I just give my general feel, but I will say that I think what you are seeing is commensurate with the genetics.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Cliff, many of us find your in depth pedigree analyses educational & fascinating. Please don't stop sharing valuable insights simply b/c not everyone appreciates 'em.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't over indulge or inappropriately promote what you see as "but he possesses a certain degree of sharpness " as you outlined not as biddable as ideal , rather poor impulse control , and (combined with) low thresholds. 

Elements of fear aggression. How many times are you confronted with real life threatening situations. How many times has the dog reacted as if you were confronted with a real life situation. If the answer is many -- move to a better part of town.

So by not as biddable is this in a defensive situation , does the become over whelmed and is no longer clear . If you were to do bite work would the dog out?
Poor impulse control I don't like -- once again is this a reactive dog ? Low thresholds I really don't like because this is the "home" of stabiltiy under conflict . Once again reactive on a situation.

on the pedigree. I would not say that Cordon an Sat producing "sharper" dogs. He did produce dogs with very strong fight drive, high thresholds -- I have a breeding which is double on Cordon .
Your pedigree has some very good animals on it , but I would have gone with the theme instead of just throwing in names.
There are dogs in the pedigree known for sharpness - Asko Joufne Keyleff (Frei Gugge) . You need some other wise the thresholds are so high the dog is too slow to act on a situation , too much and you have fear . Sagus Busecker Schloss which you have twice I believe was an animal that had high reactivity / lowered thresholds. Bred correctly you have excellent outcome, bred without compensating , you have a problem . I do not like that Wicki Pomonia which is Sagus to essentially "Canto" (Celly) , which is likely to produce unstable , sharp shy . I am thinking that whoever did the breeding may have gone to Cordon an Sat to compensate ?? 
I would not have brought Crok Erlenbush into this pedigree and not mixed with DDR Neumann's Jim .

So you have the animal in front of you and you have to deal with him. It is what it is. If you breed don't breed in to more "hot" animals . Get the stability back . 

Don't inadvertantly encourage aggression. 

opinion offered with good intentions , 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That analysis from Carmen is onpoint....read it slowly and go back and look up the dogs she mentions....also the nervebase is crucial...if the dog has sharpness and good nervebase then the clearness in the head will allow him to learn parameters on displaying this trait. If the dog can't handle the aggression and isn't clear, then this can be problematic....still comes back to nervebase as I always say!! Asko/Sagus would definitely give strong aggression for different reasons, but's that another topic.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Emoore said:


> Lisa, when you get to feeling better (which I hope is soon!) could you elaborate on what you dislike about Canto?


Weak nerves and overall character. Canto produced flashy dogs that sold well to international markets and despite warnings about temperament was used and linebred on quite extensively. For a dog that died at 4 he did a lot of damage to the breed. 

For a short while I had a dog who was by a working line male and out of a female who was something like 5,5,5-5,5 on Canto. Worthless as a working dog, but he was a fantastic dog to watch move. He was given to me so he could be titled. Ended up with an owner who bred him even though he couldn't title.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

carmspack said:


> don't over indulge or inappropriately promote what you see as "but he possesses a certain degree of sharpness " as you outlined not as biddable as ideal , rather poor impulse control , and (combined with) low thresholds.


 carmspack, I am almost 100% sure that I used the term "sharpness" inappropriately here. I HAVE heard that the sire was to produce sharpness, but I meant that my dog possesses a certain degree of suspicion combined with a quick willingness to spring forward into action rather than to back down. Someone else with several years of experience in training GSDs for Schutzhund (in a discussion re: sharp dogs) heard that and called him a sharp dog (she has not met him before). 



carmspack said:


> Elements of fear aggression. How many times are you confronted with real life threatening situations. How many times has the dog reacted as if you were confronted with a real life situation. If the answer is many -- move to a better part of town.


Sorry, I should have elaborated.

I think it depends on what you mean by real life threatening situations. I am not jumpy by nature, nor do I live in a dangerous part of town at all, but there the apartment complexes a few blocks down are where several young men/teenagers like to hang out. They do not actually present a serious danger to me, but they have very strange ideas about what is funny and what is not and their attention is often unsolicited. 

While some could be considered friends or close acquaintances, I will admit that others in that group have scared me. They will pop out of nowhere, jump at me, heckle people, etc. Like I said, they think it's all in good fun and some are friends of mine, but if it's late at night (and I often am up late at night or up to 3 - 4 a.m.) and I'm out walking, I have been scared before. 

I am not sure if my dog's reactions would be qualified as fear aggression. Once I greet the person or give my dog the "okay" he calms down - no raised hackles, no anxious look - his ears are forward, eyes on the person, tail wagging, etc. 



carmspack said:


> So by not as biddable is this in a defensive situation , does the become over whelmed and is no longer clear . If you were to do bite work would the dog out?
> Poor impulse control I don't like -- once again is this a reactive dog ? Low thresholds I really don't like because this is the "home" of stabiltiy under conflict . Once again reactive on a situation.


No, I do not believe so. I meant not biddable as in the fact that he does not work for the enjoyment of working and to please me as his handler, but rather he works for a good game of tug or for a toy. I know what an overwhelmed dog looks/acts like and what a stressed dog looks/acts like, and I would be able to recognize that. He is one of the more independent German Shepherds I have known. He is very fun to work with in obedience, but I am constantly getting creative and coming up with new things to hold his interest - he will start off in a highly excited fashion but soon his attention will be drawn elsewhere and he may lose interest in promised rewards. 

And no, I don't like a lack of impulse control or low thresholds, either. 

Is he reactive? He is towards larger male dogs that get in his face, or reactive male dogs. He is towards cats outside the house, but only when they are outside the house (lives very well with cats at home). But not with people, never with people, and he is excellent in new situations faced with foreign objects and noises. This is a dog that I take everywhere with me. We wait outside of grocery stores, we go to video stores, every pet supply store, electronic stores... if the place allows dogs, he comes with me. I can't see myself doing that if he was people reactive. 




carmspack said:


> Don't inadvertantly encourage aggression.


It may have sounded like I enjoy unwarranted aggression in a dog, but I don't. I don't like a dog that is too aggressive or too sharp and I do not encourage it. I praise him when he is calm, never when he is reacting, even if I deem the situation to be appropriate. I value control. 



carmspack said:


> opinion offered with good intentions ,
> Carmen


And I can't appreciate it enough! Thank you very, very much for taking the time to write such detailed analysis. 



cliffson1 said:


> That analysis from Carmen is onpoint....read it slowly and go back and look up the dogs she mentions....also the nervebase is crucial...if the dog has sharpness and good nervebase then the clearness in the head will allow him to learn parameters on displaying this trait. If the dog can't handle the aggression and isn't clear, then this can be problematic....still comes back to nervebase as I always say!! Asko/Sagus would definitely give strong aggression for different reasons, but's that another topic.


Carmen, Cliff, given what I have said of Trent's behavior, what WOULD you two say about the nerve base? 




lhczth said:


> Weak nerves and overall character. Canto produced flashy dogs that sold well to international markets and despite warnings about temperament was used and linebred on quite extensively. For a dog that died at 4 he did a lot of damage to the breed.
> 
> For a short while I had a dog who was by a working line male and out of a female who was something like 5,5,5-5,5 on Canto. Worthless as a working dog, but he was a fantastic dog to watch move. He was given to me so he could be titled. Ended up with an owner who bred him even though he couldn't title.


Thank you Lisa for getting back to us on this, Lisa! I hope you are feeling a bit better at least. 

Ironically, Trent is not a nice dog conformation-wise at all, nor does he have a correct (or even pretty) gait. 

I can't seem to find Canto on his pedigree - could you tell me which generation he is in?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

REI, you have Canto through Straus (5 pen pedigree).

And Vello through Salina (5 gen pedigree). 

And Dando through Drago (5 gen pedigree)


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks Justine!! Found it!


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