# Cost to train in PP



## mikejohnson (Apr 1, 2015)

Hey guys Im planning on training with my GSD to do PP. Im just curious what the average cost is per hr to train in this area. I know there is a lot that goes into this but I'm just speaking generally.

The place I was planning on taking him wants 200/hr and says they think it will take between 15-20hrs with 15min training sessions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not giving an opinion on the place you're talking about, but I wouldn't pay 200 dollars an hour. 15-20 hours, what if he isn't what you want at the end of it?


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Even if their qualifications are considered the Best , $200 per hour is unreasonable.

And no one, in my experience can train a dog like my wife's dog below in....... 15-20 hrs of work with 15 minute sessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5osw4ynoUI

Or this dog that we trained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDV30QHDyVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVkR2er0a74

It took a lot more time than 15-20 hours of work to train these dogs. 

Bite suits, sleeve's, hidden sleeves, gunfire, fireworks etc. etc.

Whenever we are contacted to train a PPD we first want to find out, "What in your mind is a PPD? What do expect from your dog? On and on the questions go. 

And just because you can afford it, does not mean that your dog is able to perform to your expectations. And, *you need to be trained as well….that is the hardest part.*

We regularly turn people down because, Number one - working with dogs is our hobby, not how we make a living.

Number two- it is not how we make our living, understand?

Does this trainer who charges $200 per hour have videos of the same quality as ours? 

If not, maybe do some research before you spend any money. 

*There are Good Trainers out there, Figure out what you Really Want from your dog, Consider the Liability factors involved in owning a PPD and then do some Research to find a Professional Trainer in your area.*


Kim


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

mikejohnson said:


> The place I was planning on taking him wants 200/hr and says they think it will take between 15-20hrs with 15min training sessions.


You're dealing with someone asking stupidly ridiculous rates and making equally ridiculous promises.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm with everyone else. $200 an hour seems high to me and 15-20 hours is not a lot of time. People forget that just as if not more importantly when teaching a dog to bite, is also teaching when not to bite. Getting them to bite is the easy part. So like Kim said, ask yourself what a PPD means to you. What level of training do you in vision in your head? 

Have you already had your dog evaluated for this type of work? Has he been deemed suitable? Or does this trainer believe they can make any dog a PPD?

If you don't mind sharing your location, where are you?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't believe the OP even has a pup yet and is just looking for a ballpark figure.... both goals and training facilities could definitely change, so now that it's gathered $200/hr is too much and 15-20hrs is not enough..... perhaps someone could provide some realistic figures for him?

he's in oaklahoma mycobraracr.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*mikejohnson *- 

Allow me to give you another example Mike, the first videos I posted were of very serious PPD's ( we don't use Level 1, 2 , 3 like some people do, non-sense stuff).

The videos below are of a dog that was considered a poor candidate for a family pet, let alone a PPD. We took this dog in and spent 9 months working with her.

I also have video of her playing with my Granddaughter, Awesome Dog!!

Nine months of intense work, I eventually sold her to an Elderly couple for the obscene price of $500 (five -hundred)

I know, I know...._Superman never made any money. LOL_


Why, because I play with dogs as a hobby, not a living. 

And we have sold dogs for as high as $20,000, and they were worth it.

Would you be happy if your dog could perform like this dog below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am5SU8Dev2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEIUjbZ0F9k


I don't think those folks could train your dog and you , like this one in 15-20 hrs. But, I could be wrong.


And I don't consider this dog a PPD, she is more of a Family Protection Dog in my mind.

Take your time and ask around, I'm sure someone on this Forum can help you find a good trainer in your area.


Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*Fodder*- Read what has already been said.

What you, or I or Steve etc. think is a PPD is like Night and Day.

Let the OP answer the questions that were given to him, in response to his post and then we can talk about cost.

Seem reasonable?

Kim


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

both understandable and reasonable. I'm also recognizing that to a novice - a short video of a dog biting wether it's IPO1, MR2, PSA3, your version of PPD or mine or Steve's... it may all very well look the same.

but you're right, I'll await more info...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

PP is not my thing but what I'm pretty good at is recognizing good information when I see it! 

And Pirates Lair fits in that category! If the OP's goal is a PP dog in "my view" the OP would do well to consider "Pirate's Lair" advise! 

If I were looking for a PP dog I would consider him a good source of info! Of course if that were my goal?? I'd most likely want to use a Female, 100 %, American Boxer and he'd most likely say "forget it!? 

Shameless plug at it's finest yes ... but I'm "usually" right! 

Carry on all.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Fodder said:


> both understandable and reasonable. I'm also recognizing that to a novice - a short video of a dog biting wether it's IPO1, MR2, PSA3, your version of PPD or mine or Steve's... it may all very well look the same.
> 
> but you're right, I'll await more info...


With my question, I meant to see what the op was looking for, but either way and no matter what he wants, I personally wouldn't pay 200 dollars an hour.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well he now knows $200 bucks an hour is "apparently" too much and he's going to need to find the "right" puppy!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*Steve*- no one in their right mind should pay $200 an hour, *Ever*. 

I'm trying to be polite here.


*mikejohnson*- If you talk to Sport folks (Schuzthund, IPO, French Ring) they will say their dogs do real protection work.

If you talk to PSD/PPD folks they will say their dogs do real life street protection work.

*You are the only one that knows what;* 

- you want and expect from a Personal Protection dog
- you can afford
- your prepared to do to learn about handling
- etc. etc.

A nice titled or non-titled "Sport Protection Dog" with turn key obedience can be purchased (Imported) for as little as $3000 U.S. 

They make nice pets and can bark at strangers, and you can take them to your local club and title them yourself.

Czech/Slovakia pump them out faster than China smuggles counterfeit tobacco in to North America.

Nice Family Pet/Sport dogs......that is all they are! 

Do not ever believe that they are Personal Protection Dogs that will go to War for you.

Personal Protection Dogs can be imported, good dogs too! But then there is a "Grace Period".

Or purchased and trained locally.

Time for you and the dog to Bond! It can take months to Bond with a good dog.

Weak dogs will bond faster than Strong Dogs ....because they are Weak!

When you figure out what it is you want, think about the questions you want to ask and then post them here.

There are a lot of experienced folks on this forum, don't waste their time.

Think about your questions and then ask.


Kim


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> *Steve*- no one in their right mind should pay $200 an hour, *Ever*.
> 
> I'm trying to be polite here.
> 
> ...


 Kinder and gentler but still with an "edge."

I like it ...don't know if that's a plus or not??


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## scrunk (Jun 29, 2002)

I just can't help myself, but my advice is you look for another trainer. I agree the price is quite high, but the 15-20 hours is what really pulls my trigger. I will go ahead and say that is crazy.

Many of the points already mentioned are spot on. Again, ask yourself what it is you really want the dog to do from a protection aspect and set attainable goals. 

I believe PL already stated the bond is extremely important and your ability to handle the dog. 
It is also important you understand how to read a dog's body language. All of this takes a great amount of time. Be realistic, and that can ultimately help you stay safe...

I could go on, but I think you have already been given some great info, I just couldn't resist to reinforce a few points. Good luck.


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## mikejohnson (Apr 1, 2015)

Ok, so to answer peoples questions. I do already have a GSD. I live in Oklahoma city and I take my dog to a reccommended (by many) training facility for obedience training. The owner also does PP training and is the one that did testing to determine if my GSD was a good fit for this type of training.

No I don't think PP means he's been titled in sport, nor do I care to title him in schutzhund. 

Heres what I want from this training: I want my dog to be trained to asses and handle real life threats and situations, no artificial one. I think owning a true PP dog means that not only does the dog listen to my commands but is also able to act with autonomy should I be unable to deliver commands. I think this dog should live harminously with my family and I but be ready and able should the need arise. Essentially as someone else said, I want my dog to be able and willing to go to battle for me or my family and not shy away or be confused because theres no bite sleeve or puffy suit. 

Ive never trained or been part of training a PP dog before, so when I had the conversation about cost and time I figured since I don't know I should ask a group of people that do know. I seem to have offended some people by asking such a novice question ( if thats the case, I apologize) but I'm really just seeking information so that I can make the best choice for my dog and I. If anyone in knows a good trainer in my area (oklahoma city) or would like to discuss what an appropriate cost of doing this kind of training is I would really appreciate it.

Basically, Im such a novice that I don't know what I don't know. So please excuse the ignorance but we all start somewhere. 200/hr was quoted to me as their standard cost.

Please please please take the time to help a willing and eager owner become more educated about this type of training…


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

my apologies for interjecting that you did not yet have a dog... it was merely based on a post from August where you stated not having had a GSD before and were in search of a breeder/puppy. so you found one? congrats! and I imagine you went with an older pup or adult since he's already being evaluated for PP...?

I don't think you offended anyone... but there wasn't enough info in your original post to gauge your exact needs or seriousness.


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## mikejohnson (Apr 1, 2015)

Fodder said:


> my apologies for interjecting that you did not yet have a dog... it was merely based on a post from August where you stated not having had a GSD before and were in search of a breeder/puppy. so you found one? congrats! and I imagine you went with an older pup or adult since he's already being evaluated for PP...
> 
> I don't think you offended anyone... but there wasn't enough info in your original post to gauge your exact needs or seriousness.


No worries! I did find a GSD and he's a wonderful fit for my family and I. We did choose to go with a little be of an older dog (he's almost 9mo). Please don't apologize, I should have provided more information and for that Im sorry. Im just here to learn and really appreciate as much help as I can get on this subject.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

mikejohnson said:


> Ok, so to answer peoples questions. I do already have a GSD. I live in Oklahoma city and I take my dog to a reccommended (by many) training facility for obedience training. The owner also does PP training and is the one that did testing to determine if my GSD was a good fit for this type of training.
> 
> No I don't think PP means he's been titled in sport, nor do I care to title him in schutzhund.
> 
> ...


Mike

I was not offended by your questions and I sincerely hope you were not offended by my response.

If you don't communicate your question properly.... then people have to ask for clarification yes?

Now that you have taken the time to explain your experience with dogs and what you expect from your dog.

People can provide you with more information in order to assist you.

What you expect from a PPD is reasonable, keep in mind that it is a lot of work to get to that point. a lot will depend on how much work you yourself are willing to invest. 

Take a moment and send an E-mail to Dep. Kyle Quist at; I80 K9 Services

He is in Iowa, but has many contacts in nearby States and can probably provide you with the name of a good trainer who charges a reasonable price for training.

I have personally worked/trained with Kyle. He is experienced and honest.

Hope that helps

Kim


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## mikejohnson (Apr 1, 2015)

Pirates Lair said:


> Mike
> 
> I was not offended by your questions and I sincerely hope you were not offended by my response.
> 
> ...



Kim, 

Thank you so much! Im not easily offended  but just thought others were. I agree i was very vague with my initial questions and that stems from not knowing enough to even ask the proper questions haha. Im quite dedicated in my personal life and investing more hard work towards training appeals to me very much.

Thanks again, I will most certainly make use of this contact info!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks Mike

Good Luck


Kim


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## scrunk (Jun 29, 2002)

mikejohnson said:


> Ok, so to answer peoples questions. I do already have a GSD. I live in Oklahoma city and I take my dog to a reccommended (by many) training facility for obedience training. The owner also does PP training and is the one that did testing to determine if my GSD was a good fit for this type of training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I hope my response wasn't offensive, because my sarcastic tone certainly was not aimed at you...

I commend people who genuinely want to learn and am glad to see you doing some research before you begin pp training. 

Everyone starts somewhere and I myself am still learning every day. I simply don't want to see anyone who couldn't possibly know better get ripped off. I see so many "trainers" scam trusting people into thinking their dog is being trained for pp when in fact all that has been done is create a liability that the owners can't handle. 

If it were my dog and I really wanted more than an intimidating bark and hold on a potential attacker, I would always ask to see dogs they have trained for pp. Get customer feedback, ask tons of questions, and also find out how they evaluate if a dog is capable when the owner brings their own dog. An good trainer will always be honest and tell you that just because a dog can bite, doesn't mean they all should be taught to. I'm not at all assuming anything about your own dog, but I have seen bite work continued on dogs who never had the nerves or stamina to do real protection and the dog becomes a problem instead of an asset. 

I hope this is somewhat useful!


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## 6girl (Aug 23, 2015)

Mikejohson, I'm in the same camp, sort of, I have a 3 mo old female working lines pup that I would like to see become a family protection dog but have no idea who to turn to and don't know what my next steps should be. I'm in the Denver area and have contacted the shutzhund clubs and have had no response from any of them - about 30 days since I emailed them. I want to be a part of the process and know that I have a poo ton to learn and I think my dog is smarter than me already... I get the impression you are like me and would really appreciate advice on where to go, what to do next, etc. Good luck!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

6girl said:


> Mikejohson, I'm in the same camp, sort of, I have a 3 mo old female working lines pup that I would like to see become a family protection dog but have no idea who to turn to and don't know what my next steps should be. I'm in the Denver area and have contacted the shutzhund clubs and have had no response from any of them - about 30 days since I emailed them. I want to be a part of the process and know that I have a poo ton to learn and I think my dog is smarter than me already... I get the impression you are like me and would really appreciate advice on where to go, what to do next, etc. Good luck!



Contact these people. Mountain State K9 Academy


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## Gsdcrazy (Jun 24, 2015)

For all the people answering your post, "that know so much" none of them gave you a general cost per hour did they, and that's what you asked for wasn't it? A general cost lol I wanted to know myself


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Gsdcrazy said:


> For all the people answering your post, "that know so much" none of them gave you a general cost per hour did they, and that's what you asked for wasn't it? A general cost lol I wanted to know myself





Too many variables for a general cost. Every dog is different, everyone's idea of a finished product is different, and everyone's abilities are different. Most of us don't have cookie cutter programs. Anyone who says they can fully train a dog in x time is full of crap or they are not using the most appropriate methods. Best to shop around for trainers and find one who you mesh with. 

I've worked with trainers where we charged $120 per session. That was us driving to your house, working your dog and you. How many sessions? That all depended on the dog and the people's satisfaction of what a protection dog was. I've also worked for trainers where we charged $25 per session. But you came to us and got your dog worked. Again the amount of sessions depends on the dog and you. 

One thing for people to remember. It's not always just the dogs getting evaluated for protection work. It's also the handlers. We've turned away plenty of people based on the humans temperament, not the dogs.


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## Gsdcrazy (Jun 24, 2015)

Now that's a useful reply...thanks for a honest answer


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Too many variables for a general cost. Every dog is different, everyone's idea of a finished product is different, and everyone's abilities are different. Most of us don't have cookie cutter programs. Anyone who says they can fully train a dog in x time is full of crap or they are not using the most appropriate methods. Best to shop around for trainers and find one who you mesh with.
> 
> I've worked with trainers where we charged $120 per session. That was us driving to your house, working your dog and you. How many sessions? That all depended on the dog and the people's satisfaction of what a protection dog was. I've also worked for trainers where we charged $25 per session. But you came to us and got your dog worked. Again the amount of sessions depends on the dog and you.
> 
> One thing for people to remember. It's not always just the dogs getting evaluated for protection work. It's also the handlers. We've turned away plenty of people based on the humans temperament, not the dogs.



*Excellent answer, thank you!*

You forgot to mention that Pet Smart and other such places have a set cost for serious people who require prices on a forum or web site. LOL 


Kim


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## Gsdcrazy (Jun 24, 2015)

Yeah I thought that was what this gsd forum was for, to get other peoples thoughts on everything from home care to training, yes I'm a very serious gsd owner ,I own 4, but we can do without the sarcasm


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Taking advice on a Forum is risky, Mycobraracr and myself attempted to provide some experienced advice. 

Maybe you should read the post both of us made. I thought we were being helpful given the venue.

The problem is trying to figure out what people want, what they are capable of etc.

The majority of experienced dog owners could not handle a professionally trained PPD. For the simple reason that they have never actually seen or handled one. 


Maybe I am wrong, but it sounded like you started off with the sarcasm in your previous response.

I meant no offense to anyone, and the original poster did say thank you.


Kim


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

mikejohnson said:


> Hey guys Im planning on training with my GSD to do PP. Im just curious what the average cost is per hr to train in this area. I know there is a lot that goes into this but I'm just speaking generally.
> 
> The place I was planning on taking him wants 200/hr and says they think it will take between 15-20hrs with 15min training sessions.


Hi Mike. Our trainer charges $250.00 for 8 classes of PP.


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## Gsdcrazy (Jun 24, 2015)

Your petsmart answer was the sarcasm,We don't need that on this forum, the person that made the original post didn't want anything written in stone or a binding contract just a general price


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm sure theres a sarcasm forum out there for your sarcasm Kim, Stick to the dogs here, or we'll start a petition.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

There are loads actually

Just found this nugget from a 'native Internetian'

'Why people use sarcasm in forums'



> Some people use sarcasm to showcase their character. Displaying a strong command of the nuances of sarcasm-- and thus language-- can signal to readers a writer's wittiness and sense of humor. When sarcasm is executed successfully, readers may gain respect for the writer's intelligence.
> 
> However, sarcasm may end up reflecting negatively on the writer. This can often be the case when a less witty writer, in an attempt to broadcast their wit to others, implies someone else's lack thereof.


https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-post-sarcastic-replies-in-forum-threads


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Pirates Lair said:


> The majority of experienced dog owners could not handle a professionally trained PPD. For the simple reason that they have never actually seen or handled one.
> Kim




^^^^ This! 

People also need to realize, that they could pay the $100 for a session or whatever the price may be and it could be over in 5 minutes or the dog could possibly not even get a bite. It all depends on where the dog is at. We've actually had someone leave upset, saying they weren't paying us to play tug with their dog. They could do that at home. This was a five month old puppy. Every dog starts somewhere. There is a process.


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## Gsdcrazy (Jun 24, 2015)

I also thanked mycro for his response, you have a good night ,I'm going back to ufc now


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*"I'm going back to ufc now"* :hug:



Have a good night


Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*To answer Madlab and GSDcrazy* - I promise, my last post on this Forum.

Unlike most of you Internet Posters, I am one of the few that actually post my real name. 

It is not about you or me, or egos or titles….it it always about the Dog! 

Have fun in your internet world.



Mr. Kim Moore
Chilliwack, BC Canada
[email protected]


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I was being sarcastic, apologies

Though you had thicker skin than that though


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Or what a minute, are you being sarcastic there??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pirates Lair said:


> *To answer Madlab and GSDcrazy* - I promise, my last post on this Forum.
> 
> Unlike most of you Internet Posters, I am one of the few that actually post my real name.
> 
> ...


many of us are fairly transparent on this board. Promotion isn't always the reason for it... no reason to leave the site if you aren't feeling the love. Instead maybe stick it out and show what you are made of!
Yes, I agree, it should always be about the dogs, and not ego or titles...but this breed we are all so passionate about.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

*


mikejohnson said:



Ok, 

Basically, Im such a novice that I don't know what I don't know. So please excuse the ignorance but we all start somewhere. 200/hr was quoted to me as their standard cost.

Please please please take the time to help a willing and eager owner become more educated about this type of training…

Click to expand...

*Mike. My pup was just moved up to advanced obedience and I was wondering about what we'd do next...so, I'm only casually considering pp.
I know you're looking for some basic info. I hope this helps.
A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread asking 3 very basic questions about pp. 
Castlemaid responded to the thread and these are her answers:*
At what age would a dog begin PP training? *

Depends on the dog. Puppies can start foundation work from the time they are a few weeks old. Foundation work usually consists of drive building, grip developement, and making the 'work' fun and rewarding, so they are very comfortable with what is being asked of them as they get older, and the work becomes more serious with real stress added in.

Some dogs do best when left to mentally mature before introduced to protection work. Experienced handlers/owners/trainers can determine what approach will work best for each dog. 
*

What level of obedience training does a dog need to reach before beginning PP? *

This is a really difficult one to answer, because there is no universal or widely accepted levels of 'Obedience Training' or 'Personal Protection' training. Unless you are participating in a sanctioned event, like AKC obedience wich has set exercises, or IPO, which also has set exercises, trainers usually set their own training levels. I've seen 'advanced obedience' classes that to me were pretty much basic obedience, and so on. There is no set levels of Personal Protection training - some trainers will teach your dog to bark when on a line, and call it Protection training. I've seen trainers on-line advertise different levels of PP training, going into detail what each level is, but they are levels that THEY themselves made up. If someone came to me and said "My dog is trained to Level 3 PP, it can mean ANYTHING! 

Obedience is about control Do you have control of your dog? Do you have a relationship and engagement with your dog? This is not about teaching a dog to sit, or heel, or do a front position. This is about your dog listening to you and respecting you. That comes from on-going work and on-going obedience exercises to establish that control under extreme distraction. In IPO, it can take two to three years of intense, constant training to get to that point, just to give you an example. 

*After the dog is fully trained, would he return occasionally for something like a refresher course. * 

Depending on what you expect from your dog, 'fully trained' can take a long time, and a big commitment. The main thing the dog is trained to do is to have confidence in himself and hang on come high or low water when going for a bite on a person that might fight back, and trained to be responsive to the handler - so the protection part is something that comes naturally to most dogs (assuming they have the temperament), but the control part is the hard part that takes years of work. Refresher trainind is to maintain that control, and will be required for the life of the dog. I think most people who are serious about having a PP do at least weekly training sessions - monthly at the very minimum.  
__________________
Lucia

*Gryffon Vom Wildhaus*


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I've only been back a couple months.... Kim has "left" twice already... this time with his full name and social security number, last time with a photo of guns. everyone has their unique personalities, occasionally with some useful information mixed in - cool thing - we can scroll past anything and anyone you want but the more you engage ego driven redirections in a conversation, the more they'll carry on. if it's really about the dogs, let's be about the dogs 

laugh if you want, cry if you need to, PM as needed.... but it's all just words on a screen guys!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I could be wrong, but somehow I perceived OP's comment as questioning the value of the money to be spent for what he was being offered and was looking for confirmation. Not everybody has a bottomless pit for a wallet and he might have a fixed price in mind that he can afford to spend. There is a big difference between spending $1,500.00 and $5,000.00, at least to most of us I would think.


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## 6girl (Aug 23, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Contact these people.


That looks like a great place, but is a looong ways from Golden. Any closer to me recommendations? Thank you very much!

Deb


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

6girl said:


> That looks like a great place, but is a looong ways from Golden. Any closer to me recommendations? Thank you very much!
> 
> Deb



I'm not overly familiar with Denver. Is this any closer? I've played with them before as well. 
Dog Training Center-Supplies

Most of us drive an hour plus to training. I helped start and am a decoy for a training facility, and I still drive an hour and a half to get to training. Just an FYI. When I go to other groups to play or get different things, they are three hours plus.


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