# GSD's and Pitbulls?



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

My friend who has a 3 yo GSD male raised a point the other day that i would like to ask somebody who knows the answer (or at least more knowledge than I do).

That is this - my friends dog (also 3 yo)
was attacked a few weeks ago in the parking lot by a pit bull that escaped from it's owner as they opened up their car to get him out. And then the pit came racing across the lot and atacked her dog who she had on leash as we were standing next to my car talking.

Fortubnately the owner came running over and was able to grab the pit before anything too much happened other than a little fur flying.

My question is this - I told my friend that she and her dog was darn lucky as her dog (83 lb male) would have stood no chance in a fight with the medium to large pit bull male dog. She said that he would have and might have beat the pit if he didn't have a leash on.

Not that we would have ever just let them fight - NEVER!

But would a regular dog of another breed, even a larger one like a GSD, have much of a chance against a pit bull?

And lets pray that none of us ever have a chance to find out!!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Who would win a fight between a Kung Fu master and a JiuJitsu black belt?


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Size doesnt matter as much as the know how and training.. Not to say a 15lbs dog has a chance against a 100lbs of anger..

But a pit against a GS is a fair match. 

Im never worried about the saftey of my pup when he is with me. Ill protect him as much as he protects me.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> Who would win a fight between a Kung Fu master and a JiuJitsu black belt?


Chuck Norris


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Chuck Norris


True. 

Chuck norris cant even beat himself.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Who would win a fight between a Kung Fu master and a JiuJitsu black belt?


Hijacking the thread?

Anyway this one is simple - whoever has the gun!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Hijacking the thread?
> 
> Anyway this one is simple - whoever has the gun!


Lol I'm not exactly thread jacking. I'm also on a martial arts forum and there's *always* a thread like that on the first page, usually posted by some noob who's trying to figure out which art to learn because he wants to be deadly on the street in 30 days. 

In both instances, dog and human, the outcome of the fight will come down to the individuals. Their skills, their level of conditioning, their "heart."


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think they do a show like this on cable tv.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Hum, let's see;

A Herding Breed vs. A Fighting Breed?

:thinking:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

This completely depends on the dog's personality and temperment imo.

If the GSD in question isn't dog aggressive, I doubt it stands a chance against a DA pitbull. Had they both been DA, it would be a fair fight.


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## JonnyRico (Sep 21, 2010)

I'd say a GSD who was trained in Jiu-Jistu!!!


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

depends on the dogs. honestly sometimes im afraid for my GSD when him and my lab get into it. she and my boy friend play fight so she has some fast moves and knows how to fight dirty.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Depends on many factors for both dogs as others have suggested.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

JonnyRico said:


> I'd say a GSD who was trained in Jiu-Jistu!!!



Or if Chuck Norris had a dog. . . .

Do you guys remember a while back where this little kid who was training in JiuJitsu choked out a pit bull that was attacking somebody?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Or if Chuck Norris had a dog. . . .
> 
> Do you guys remember a while back where this little kid who was training in JiuJitsu choked out a pit bull that was attacking somebody?


I think I remember hearing about that. 

Was that the case where the pit was attacking his sister or cousin or something?


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

depends on the particular dogs i would think. that said. i have a friend who's pitbull was tore up by an aggressive GSD.

i would guess the pits would will more often than the gsd's


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Not sure why questions like these even come up, cause it depends on the dog.

A mean nasty unsocialized pitbull can kill a GSD.

A mean nasty unsocialized GSD can kill a pitbull.

A mean nasty POODLE can get the jump on and kill a friendly pitbull.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

codmaster, if i may help clarify the question...

lets assume either both the GSD and Pit are aggressive or both are not. that way we take that "factor" out of the question.

so, similiar temperments... GSD or Pit? I'd have to say Pit.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think in a fight a Pitbull would win


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

Vinnie said:


> Hum, let's see;
> 
> A Herding Breed vs. A Fighting Breed?
> 
> :thinking:


pit bulls arn't exactly a fighting breed unless they are trained that way... and the myth about pitbulls having lockjaw is well... a myth.. plus a german shepherd has a couple pounds of extra bite force (im sure both parties were trained on biting
Bite force competition. Pitbull, Rottweiler, and Shepherd. | Official German Shepherd Guide


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

chicagojosh said:


> codmaster, if i may help clarify the question...
> 
> 
> so, similiar temperments... GSD or Pit? I'd have to say Pit.


As others mentioned.... a nasty mean unsocialized pitbull (bred for fighting) vs a nasty mean unsocialized GSD (bred for herding/tracking/guide dogs). 

Still saying I feel this is a stupid question. Pitbulls were BRED to be fighting dogs. Dog/dog fighting dogs. And breeding does matter. It's why pitbull fighters get normal dogs from shelters, like GSD's, to use as bait dogs to train and get their pitbulls used to killing.................


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> As others mentioned.... a nasty mean unsocialized pitbull (bred for fighting) vs a nasty mean unsocialized GSD (bred for herding/tracking/guide dogs).
> 
> Still saying I feel this is a stupid question. Pitbulls were BRED to be fighting dogs. Dog/dog fighting dogs. And breeding does matter.* It's why pitbull fighters get normal dogs from shelters, like GSD's, to use as bait dogs to train and get their pitbulls used to killing..............*...


So true and so very sad 

They also steal dogs from backyards, that's why I always go outside with my dogs.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

question...

"bred for fighting" what does that really mean? i mean if 2 fighting pitbulls have a pup is that pup "bred for fighting" even though it hasnt' been trained to fight?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

chicagojosh said:


> question...
> 
> "bred for fighting" what does that really mean? i mean if 2 fighting pitbulls have a pup is that pup "bred for fighting" even though it hasnt' been trained to fight?


Natural instinct?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Montana Scout said:


> pit bulls arn't exactly a fighting breed unless they are trained that way... and the myth about pitbulls having lockjaw is well... a myth..


 Well it's certainly true that pit bulls don't have locking jaws but....

They were selectively bred to be willing and tenacious when in a fight either against a prey animal or another dog. That is not something you can train into a dog. It is a bit silly to deny the breed's history because it is no longer PC. 

"It is NOT "all how you raise them". American pit bulls can be confrontational with other animals - they have been bred to conquer fierce animals in the past and an understanding and respect for their heritage is a big part of being a responsible pit bull owner." Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> *They were selectively bred to be willing and tenacious when in a fight either against a prey animal or another dog*. That is not something you can train into a dog. It is a bit silly to deny the breed's history because it is no longer PC.
> 
> "It is NOT "all how you raise them". American pit bulls can be confrontational with other animals - *they have been bred to conquer fierce animals in the past and an understanding and respect for their heritage is a big part of being a responsible pit bull owner*." Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


:thumbup:

While there are tons of great pitbulls out there that are friendly as all get out....fact is that as a breed they were MEANT to be fit both mentally AND physically to fight and kill other DOGS.

GSD's were meant to be fit both mentally and physically for other needs. 

Not either dog's 'fault' for either background and lineage in breeding, it's what humans bred into each breed.


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## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

So, if we just consider "Bite Force" and size, the clear winner would be the GSD....but then if you factor in the sheer tenacity of the PB and their drive to attack until the victim is no longer breathing, then we'd have to give this to the PB. I do think however, that if my Shadow was still alive and we were confronted by a PB, he would fight his heart out to save me....and I believe everyone's GSD would do the same


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Often in the show ring, they will set a staffie up against another staffie, not to have them fight but to mark their temperament and knock them lower if they back down. Staffies, and pit bulls, and many other dogs' breeds were created to build the ultimate fighting machine.

One day as I was heeling Arwen down the street off lead -- I know, my bad. A normal sized pit bull -- about 30-35 pounds, burst through the screen door and charged. Arwen did not fight. She had been in fights with other GSDs, at least, she HATED Jazzie my brother's GSD that came to live with us, and after the fight all three of us needed medical attention, and Arwen was NOT the dog that finally backed down/listened to me enough to make it possible to get them separated. 

Still, she did not TRY to fight the aggressive little pit that rushed us. Instead she kept the thing running in large circles around me until the owners of the pit were able to get out there and grab their dog. At that point, Arwen came back to me and we continued our walk. 

No one was injured. 

They BOTH could have been hit by a car though. 

I really do not know what she would have done if the dog attacked me. Ran to the police station and brought back a cop? Well, anyhow she is gone now and it did not happen so it is useless to sit around wondering what if.

Still, I was surprised at her response to the situation, knowing that she had been in a nasty fight already. She wanted no part of the pit bull fight. I think she was saying, MOMMY, KILL IT!!!! 

At the time I was pretty negative about pitts, and thought that it would EAT me. So I was not going to stick my hand down there and offer it a sacrifice.

As their dog got loose, and my dog did not have a lead on, and neither dog was injured, we both apologized and went our separate ways.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

BestK9GSD said:


> So, if we just consider "Bite Force" and size, the clear winner would be the GSD....but then if you factor in the sheer tenacity of the PB and their drive to attack until the victim is no longer breathing, then we'd have to give this to the PB. I do think however, that if my Shadow was still alive and we were confronted by a PB, he would fight his heart out to save me....*and I believe everyone's GSD would do the same*


No, Niko would run away (the poor honey), as he has proven in the past:blush:. But I'm glad for it, I'd rather he ran home and got help than die trying to save me.


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## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> No, Niko would run away (the poor honey), as he has proven in the past:blush:. But I'm glad for it, I'd rather he ran home and got help than die trying to save me.


Awe....little sweetie Niko....but, I'm surprised his instincts to "Protect" didn't kick in....althought my scenario was completely hypathetical, I still know that my dog would have given his all to make sure I was ok....whether I wanted him to or not.....I guess I assumed all GSD's were built that way.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> Still, I was surprised at her response to the situation, knowing that she had been in a nasty fight already. She wanted no part of the pit bull fight. I think she was saying, MOMMY, KILL IT!!!!


 GSDs are prone to same sex aggression with dogs they live with. IME dogs can have serious same sex aggression with housemates but be pretty indifferent towards strange dogs. 

It sounds like neither dog in your situation was really committed to fighting. Arwen sounds like she was obviously afraid of the dog. Likely the APBT was having barrier frustration and was surprised to find himself on the other side of the barrier. Still highly aroused but not sure what to do about it. Had Arwen reacted differently towards him, it could have been a different story.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know, my dogs are very good with dogs outside the pack, even those that have had altercations within the pack. Pack aggression or same sex aggression, not sure which. But it is almost like, they do not care about outside dogs. 

If Arwen would have turned and went after that dog, it would have been a lot worse for everyone. I think we like the idea that our dogs could take care of themselves, but it is so much better if they never have to.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

BestK9GSD said:


> I do think however, that if my Shadow was still alive and we were confronted by a PB, he would fight his heart out to save me....and I believe everyone's GSD would do the same


In a fantasy world that some people like to live in, where everyones dog is rin tin tin, maybe that would be true. The truth is that this couldn't be farther from the truth.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> In a fantasy world that some people like to live in, where everyones dog is rin tin tin, maybe that would be true. The truth is that this couldn't be farther from the truth.


 
What then would be the truth?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> What then would be the truth?


About what?... Who would win the fight between a pit or a GSD or the whole " every GSD will protect their owner to the death" thing.

The fight probably depends on many different factors... Size, fight or flight instinct, age, body shape. It's really up in the air and you can't generalize between breeds. 

As for the "every gsd will protect their owner" thing, that just not true. Not all GSD's will do that and will probably themselves before they protect their owners. Not always the case though - some digs will naturally protect while some just won't. Look at the example Selzer gave when a pit went after her and her dog. I think people just like the idea that they have a dog that will protect their owners from everything when that's just not reality. It's nice to think though.


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## Smiling_Shepherd (Aug 23, 2010)

2 Stories on this

#1 - pit attack

Many years ago before pits were popular I was walking my 85# male GSD. An approx. 70# pit came blasting right through a closed screen door. The pit charged & jumped mouth open into his side. Since my guy was 100% muscle the pit bounced off of him which kind of surprised me as I expected some sort of teeth to skin connection. My guy turned faster than I could even blink and pinned the pit on the ground by the neck. Immediately at this point the owner was at his dog & grabbed it before they could get into it. Owner left without comment, apology, nothing. So I called the police & animal control. Dog wasn't registered and due to the attack & since the guy couldn't prove vaccinations the dog was taken into AC and held. While the police were interviewing him they found something because the guy was arrested. The guy eventually got the dog released and it did have vacs. At the city hearing the dog was labeled as potentially dangerous. They got off easy.

I have to admit even I was impressed by how well my guy handled himself and stunned at the viciousness of the pit.

_______________________________________________________________

#2 - soliciting a dog fight
Now pits are everywhere. About 2 years ago I was walking one of my dogs in the park and 2 guys walking by me said, Hey do you want to fight that dog against a pit? I called the cops after the 2 had passed me. The cops came out took my statement and my description of them. I found out later they caught them and arrested them. In my case they were charged with criminal solicitation (felony). They were both here illegally and had other warrants. Followed the case until completed. They were eventually deported. I was never contacted to give a formal statement or testify.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Interestin stories - nice people that you seem to meet! Heh! Heh!

One reason for my original question was that one PPD trainer that i ran into at a club meeting once told me that a PB fighting a "regular" dog was like a pro boxer fighting a "regular" guy. Sounds like maybe the "regular" guy might win one of those fights.

But I think my money would be on the "pro".

Esp. with my friends dog - strikes me as somewhat of a wimp.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> About what?... Who would win the fight between a pit or a GSD or the whole " every GSD will protect their owner to the death" thing.
> 
> The fight probably depends on many different factors... Size, fight or flight instinct, age, body shape. It's really up in the air and you can't generalize between breeds.
> 
> As for the "every gsd will protect their owner" thing, that just not true. Not all GSD's will do that and will probably themselves before they protect their owners. Not always the case though - some digs will naturally protect while some just won't. Look at the example Selzer gave when a pit went after her and her dog. I think people just like the idea that they have a dog that will protect their owners from everything when that's just not reality. It's nice to think though.


Really depends on the bond between owner an dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lucy Dog said:


> About what?... Who would win the fight between a pit or a GSD or the whole " every GSD will protect their owner to the death" thing.
> 
> The fight probably depends on many different factors... Size, fight or flight instinct, age, body shape. It's really up in the air and you can't generalize between breeds.
> 
> As for the "every gsd will protect their owner" thing, that just not true. Not all GSD's will do that and will probably themselves before they protect their owners. Not always the case though - some digs will naturally protect while some just won't. Look at the example Selzer gave when a pit went after her and her dog. I think people just like the idea that they have a dog that will protect their owners from everything when that's just not reality. It's nice to think though.


Well, actually the pitt only went for my dog not for me. I think that if Arwen only wanted to save her skin she would have run away and kept running, but she kept circling me, like get it off me, get it off me. If it had turned its aggression toward me, it may have been a different story. 

The operative word there is "may." If this was Babsy, I know she would not have allowed the dog to attack me. Jenna? Not sure really. Most of them I have trained from early on to be around other dogs. 

I think someone was right that neither dog was committed to fighting. I think that once the pitt was out, it ran toward us, my dog ran and it chased. There was no contact between dogs, dogs and people, or people. If the dog would have bit down on my leg and I started hollering, I think that would have raised the stakes. And when Arwen saw red, she would not worry about herself at all. If the dog would have bit her, I think she would have turned and fought. Glad neither of those things happened.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Not sure why questions like these even come up, cause it depends on the dog.
> 
> A mean nasty unsocialized pitbull can kill a GSD.
> 
> ...


THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have a pitbull myself and have been raised around pits and GSD's. For one thing like someone posted above...they are NOT a fighting breed. People have trained certain dogs to be fighters. You could train a German Shepherd to be a fighter, or any dog for that matter. Its a really a shame to see that society has come to think that all pits are mean and vicious. This topic really gets my blood pressure up! My stepdad was attacked by a standard poodle who won awards in the show ring...hmm?? My moms GSD has never been socialized with any dogs (we are working on him now) and my pitbull is terrified of him. I'm sure she could handle her own but I dont even want to think about that. The news plays a big part in ruining pitbulls. They never show stories of people getting attacked by Labs, rottis, or golden retrievers. Pitbulls have the same behavior score as some of the other common breeds. Zella has never went after anyone. My sister trusts her around her kids way before she trusts her own dogs. I hope one day people will learn that its not this breeds fault...its societies! Here's a picture of the best girl in the world


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

They are talking about pitbull type dogs and other dogs, not people. 

There are dogs - who in their standard - list other dog aggression or intolerance as a trait. 

http://www.akc.org/breeds/akita/
http://www.akc.org/breeds/scottish_terrier/
(ones who actually talk about temperament in their AKC breed standard)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And the breed was created for bull baiting or dog fighting. They mixed bull dogs and terriers to get a dog with the power and courage to bait bulls with the tenacity of terriers. They were bred to fight. Dog fighting was a big deal in society and they created awesome dog fighting breeds. To deny that doesn't do any good. 

Rewriting history does not change it, misinformation is not a good way to change people's perception of the breeds.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Pit Bulls where bred to fight. a GSD has no chance
against a Pit, what dog does????


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Thank you for this realistic post! It is a fact and I know it upsets people, but that is the history of the breed. They are powerful dogs that I personally will never trust them around other animals the way I trust my other dogs. (about 90% trust) Does that mean they are horrible animals? Nope, but people need to be aware of their tendencies that have been bred into them genetically for a purpose that humans wanted at that time.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> Rewriting history does not change it, misinformation is not a good way to change people's perception of the breeds.


 ITA. I remember someone coming to my agility class with a really awesome APBT and participating in the group play session held before the class. This person was adamant that because she hadn't ever treated her dog with anything but kindness and because the dog had never been trained a fighter, she would always be dog friendly. And as a youngster she was pretty dog friendly. Then one day, she wasn't and her owner was so shocked that I had to pull her off the other dog. From that point on, she was pretty willing to fight with most dogs, if given an opportunity. She wasn't "fight crazy" but certainly willing. The exception was one of my Belgian girls - those two got along extremely well and it never escalated past play with them. The dog went on to get obedience titles and the owner went on to become a much more educated ambassador for the breed :thumbup:


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## Glacier (Feb 25, 2009)

And here's a through breed history page straight from the horses mouth.
APBT History

No one is saying that they're vicious, but to deny that dog aggression runs through the breed is foolish. Now I know that various lines carry varying degrees of dog aggression. I'd never trust a pit not to fight, and that's just a fact of life. You can go to any good APBT forum and you'll here the same thing. I love the breed, but I know what they are. Just like expecting a GSD to have the same high human bit threshold as a pit is foolish.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Hmmm....All the pit mixes I have met at my shelter weren't really DA, they just barked at other dogs, but alot of the other dogs did that. When I met pit mixes outside my shelter while walking my own dogs, they just got excited and wanted to play.

ETA: The reason I say Pit Mixes, is because I am not sure if they are purebred APBT or not. And plus most of the Pitbulls at my shelter are mixes.


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## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> In a fantasy world that some people like to live in, where everyones dog is rin tin tin, maybe that would be true. The truth is that this couldn't be farther from the truth.


What do you base your statement on? You didn't know my dog or his heart or our bond, so what do you know about our truth?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

BestK9GSD said:


> What do you base your statement on? You didn't know my dog or his heart or our bond, so what do you know about our truth?


I believe her post was in response you following your statement with "I believe everyone's GSD would do the same"


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> Really depends on the bond between owner an dog


Not really. Some GSDs are so weak nerved they'll run from a car door being shut. Others that don't have such weak nerves don't have defense drives and will run rather than fight. Why do you think its so hard to find good Police/Military dogs and PPDs?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

BestK9GSD said:


> What do you base your statement on? You didn't know my dog or his heart or our bond, so what do you know about our truth?


I wasn't trying to single out your dog. Obviously, I don't know you and I don't know your dog. I was making that reference to the average dog owner and their dog.

You said in one of your earlier posts that all GSD's would protect their owners with their own lives when in danger, but that's just not true. Obviously there are some that would I think people just watch too many movies and want to believe their own dogs can be like the dogs on TV for whatever reason.



sagelfn said:


> I believe her post was in response you following your statement with "I believe everyone's GSD would do the same"


It's actually him, not her , but yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say. 



sagelfn said:


> Not really. Some GSDs are so weak nerved they'll run from a car door being shut. Others that don't have such weak nerves don't have defense drives and will run rather than fight. Why do you think its so hard to find good Police/Military dogs and PPDs?


Again, agreed. Nice post.


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## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

I guess I was lucky to have a dog with great heart and courage and incorrectly assumed that "everyone" was as fortunate. I apologize for my "blanket statement".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Just think, I bet that our dogs also think that their owners would protect them also!

And many won't, no doubt!


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## BestK9GSD (Oct 26, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Just think, I bet that our dogs also think that their owners would protect them also!
> 
> And many won't, no doubt!


Good point! Full shelters and horrible stories of abondonment are proof of that huh?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, is that the point you were trying to make Codmaster? I interpreted your statement to mean: My dog expects me to keep him safe on a daily basis, be it from a loose dog, or a snake ,or a big scary truck zooming by, or a crazy guy who gets in his face.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> Well, is that the point you were trying to make Codmaster? I interpreted your statement to mean: My dog expects me to keep him safe on a daily basis, be it from a loose dog, or a snake ,or a big scary truck zooming by, or a crazy guy who gets in his face.


Not quite - my point above was that some dogs (like some people) probably have exaggerated ideas about what their owners 9or dogs) might do in an emergency. (BTW - proabably the same about family members and friends - my thought is that until and unless you have ever been "under fire" so to speak, no one can be really sure what they or their dogs will do in said emergency.

With that said,yes, I expect to protect my dog from some things, usually by avoiding some scenarios where he could be in danger. How ever I would still certainly NOT expect him to run away or hide if someone threatens him!

In the case I cited above with my friends dog, I would expect Baron to be right at the end of his lead just watching the man approach or perhaps not as ideally be barking and lunging to defend himself. I would also expect Baron to listen to my commands during this - i.e. Quiet, Stay or the like.

Just as I would certainly hope and expect him to defend the same if someone ever comes at me or a family member in a similar fashion.

That guy was an idiot in my own humble opinion by acting like that to a dog who was ignoring him and his dog and just trotting by and not really that close either.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Odd topic.. lol And I'm a little late, haven't read every post, but I will put my 2c in.

Let's say a 45 pound APBT against an 75 pound German Shepherd... Both in top shape - it depends on the individual dogs. If the GSD was really into the fight and had a hard mouth(hard bite) well it could certainly kill the pit by suffocating, biting into an artery, ripping the abdomen open.. However, if the GSD didn't get one of those lucky bites there is little guessing of who would win. APBTs have been bred for centuries NOT to give up and to put their all into the fight. They will go for three hours and lay on each other panting and biting. They will drag themselves across the pit with two broken legs to keep fighting after they've been given the chance to quit.. that is something I've never seen another breed do.

GSD are very tough animals, and could do major damage to another dog, but the problem is they don't have the want, the urge, to fight and keep fighting, they would want to give up after ten-twenty minutes or less, whilst the APBT would keep on, and on, and on. I expect a young, fit and able GSD to be able to hold his own for a few minutes, but it is not in them to keep going for what could be hours.

I had a very unfair fight between my GSD bitch and my bulldog bitch (who was a mutt, maybe APBT, maybe Amstaff mix) and the GSD wanted to quit within a minute, she scampered the second I got the pit off of her. My male GSD got into many fights, we lived in a more rural setting then and would go out in the woods, in country areas, and have run-ins with other dogs. He would have a quick scrap with them no problem, but the second they submitted or ran off he let them go. He got into it with an Am bulldog mix once, that was a very nasty fight and he did not quit until I managed to beat the other dog off of him, but he was defending himself, he wasn't fighting because he wanted to. That is not the case with a fighting breed like an APBT, they don't fight for dominance or resources, when they get into a real fight they fight simply to fight, and keep fighting. It is in them like herding and protectiveness is in GSDs. 



I saw mentioned that many pits aren't DA or AA... They don't need to be. A VERY well known, excellent fighting dog (one who's seen 8+ matches) has pics on the internet up of him laying there taking a beating from a cat, and another with him posing while a ton of his puppies crawl all over him biting on him... Open aggression towards animals has nothing to do with fighting ability.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Montana Scout said:


> *pit bulls arn't exactly a fighting breed unless they are trained that way*... and the myth about pitbulls having lockjaw is well... a myth.. plus a german shepherd has a couple pounds of extra bite force (im sure both parties were trained on biting
> Bite force competition. Pitbull, Rottweiler, and Shepherd. | Official German Shepherd Guide


That's is a myth.. It is in their blood and it is a trait of the breed, the urge to fight is in APBTs like herding is in GSDs.. It's just a trait of the breed.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> My male GSD got into many fights, we lived in a more rural setting then and would go out in the woods, in country areas, and have run-ins with other dogs.QUOTE]
> 
> hi apbt, why are you allowing your dog to fight so often? were you hiking off leash thinking there would be no one else out there?
> 
> i just noticed the "my male gsd got into many fights" and thought...why? isn't he on lead? or perhaps at dogs parks?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I lived in an area where everyone thought it was fine and dandy to let their dogs run loose. When we were out hiking/roaming in the woods or out in country area, we ran into loose pets or strays who would usually come after my dog. No, he wasn't on lead when we hiked, his recall was amazing (I could call him directly out of a fight) and it was rare to see another person out there. If the dog wasn't aggressive he'd play with them or just ignore them, so I was not overly worried, and I too was capable of handling another dog if it was more than a small scrap he got into. 

It's been many years... I've since moved to a much more populated area where it's not the norm to see a dog off lead roaming and there is a leash law anyway.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> I lived in an area where everyone thought it was fine and dandy to let their dogs run loose. When we were out hiking/roaming in the woods or out in country area, we ran into loose pets or strays who would usually come after my dog. No, he wasn't on lead when we hiked, his recall was amazing (I could call him directly out of a fight) and it was rare to see another person out there. If the dog wasn't aggressive he'd play with them or just ignore them, so I was not overly worried, and I too was capable of handling another dog if it was more than a small scrap he got into.
> 
> It's been many years... I've since moved to a much more populated area where it's not the norm to see a dog off lead roaming and there is a leash law anyway.


You agree that water and blankets won't break up a fight, but you could recall your pit out of a fight?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> You agree that water and blankets won't break up a fight, but you could recall your pit out of a fight?


I had a GSD... I don't think I said I had a pit. I wouldn't have a pit loose where other dogs are known to pop up anyhoo.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

codmaster said:


> . . . But would a regular dog of another breed, even a larger one like a GSD, have much of a chance against a pit bull? . . .


Interesting topic. I read every single post and I'll give you my take. While I can't predict in general about what breed would win such a fight, I can predict how my dogs in particular would fare. 

There's not a dog on this planet that could take down Mastro or Cleo, not even a 250 pound Pit with 9" fangs, because my hip is always being ridden by either my SA 1911-A1 in .45ACP or my Glock P20 10mm. I'd have no compunction whatsoever about giving a good dose of lead poisoning to an attacking animal. 

I wouldn't enjoy it, wouldn't get a rush from it, wouldn't relish it. But I'd sleep like a baby that night knowing I protected my babies. 


:groovy:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> Interesting topic. I read every single post and I'll give you my take. While I can't predict in general about what breed would win such a fight, I can predict how my dogs in particular would fare.
> 
> There's not a dog on this planet that could take down Mastro or Cleo, not even a 250 pound Pit with 9" fangs, because my hip is always being ridden by either my SA 1911-A1 in .45ACP or my Glock P20 10mm. I'd have no compunction whatsoever about giving a good dose of lead poisoning to an attacking animal.
> 
> ...


Well I can't say I blame you for that, BUT that also kind of answers my question on who you think would win a fight. 

Also I would hope that you are one **** of a shot with your pistol - pits are extremely fast and evasive in a fight and don't forget your dog would also be pretty close and moving around fast. Not an easy shot!


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

How would a stun gun work in terms of being effective yet safer than a firearm (not so final)? You never want to harm your own dog by mistake and minimal effective force to neutralize the agressor is my preferred method of operation. 

Is a stun gun or a firearm the most effective deterrent, or might there be another alternative?


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Well I can't say I blame you for that, BUT that also kind of answers my question on who you think would win a fight.
> 
> Also I would hope that you are one **** of a shot with your pistol - pits are extremely fast and evasive in a fight and don't forget your dog would also be pretty close and moving around fast. Not an easy shot!


thats why guns come with clips of ammo now (c: 

and for tazering, im not 100% sure, but if your using the prong ejection tips, then you might just end up killing the dog

oh and i wouldn't bother with pepper spray, dogs have a higher pain tolerance and can lash out quicker than the effects to actually kick in


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Well I can't say I blame you for that, *BUT that also kind of answers my question on who you think would win a fight. *
> 
> Also I would hope that you are one **** of a shot with your pistol - pits are extremely fast and evasive in a fight and don't forget your dog would also be pretty close and moving around fast. Not an easy shot!


Why?

I do not like dog fights. Not ANY dog fight. I do not like the way the adrenalin rushes and the feeling of helplessness etc. 

I do not carry around a gun. But if I had no problem shooting a pitt or a Rottweiler that attacked my dog, why would I not shoot a Yorkie or a poodle? 

I do not WANT my dog fighting with ANY dog. If my dog is bitten by a Yorkie and turns and grabs and shakes it, it would be just as dead as if I shot it, but my dog would not be looked at as a mad killer -- I would. But why? Why would it be ok if I shot a Rottie or a huskie or a pitt? Why would it be ok to shoot only if I thought my dog would not win the fight? 

I will keep my dogs out of fights if in anyway possible without a gun.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

codmaster said:


> . . .
> Also I would hope that you are one **** of a shot with your pistol - pits are extremely fast and evasive in a fight and don't forget your dog would also be pretty close and moving around fast. Not an easy shot!


Ideally I'd drop it before it got to one of them, but we don't live in an idealistic world. I wouldn't shoot from afar, I'd get up close and personal and be willing to take some damage myself and get the gun pointed at the bad guy at point blank before I shot. 

I'm hesitant to tell this but I will. I recently shot a dog that was attacking another dog that runs wild and visits the various ranch houses in my neck of the woods. Just about everyone has their own name for him because no one knows who owns him - if anyone. We've tried to take him in but he's the most wiry and athletic critter I've ever seen especially to be a yellow lab. Our name for him is Marvin because when he first showed up I took one look at him and said "Look it's starvin Marvin." 

We fed him and he stayed around for a few months but one day - in fact the day before this last Super Bowl him and our nearest neighbors dog disappeared. The next day on Super Bowl Sunday another of our neighbor's down the road reported to us they had been broken in to while attending a SB party. We all surmised the thieves had been methodical and gotten rid of the dogs prior to coming back the next day to do their dirty deeds. 

Fast forward to this Sunday morning maybe 2.5 months ago I reckon when we hear this gawd awful noises of screaming and yelping and something banging against the glass screen door at our back bedroom door. I jumped into a pair of skivvies and opened the door and there was Marvin being mauled by another dog I'd never seen. Well I shouldn't say he was being mauled but this dog was biting Marvin on his hind quarters every few seconds and not love bites. Marvin had come to us for help so I started out the door to run this dog off but that was a bad idea. 

The dog made for me and he was growling and bearing his whites while covering the few feet between us and I was back inside the door like Earl Campbell going through would-be tacklers. My wife was by then staring out the door yelling shoot that **** dog it's rabid! I immediately grabbed the sidearm off the bedside table and went back to the door. By that time which was only a few seconds I guess Marvin had given up on us and had started to run off again. I ran after the both of them and the bad dog turned to attack me but this time I knew I didn't need to run. 

Let me describe very generally what a dog does when he gets hit with a .45ACP Golden Sabre hollow point in the mid section. He starts spinning at the single spot on earth where was when he took the round trying to dig it out with his teeth. the sound is awful. I didn't waste time putting him out of his misery. When you make that head shot it's over that instant. That's why you want to get up close and personal if you ever find yourself in that unfortunate situation where you have to kill a dog, or any living animal for that matter. i didn't have to do that because the separation between it and Marvin was enough that I had not fear of hitting Marvin. 

The dog was not rabid it was feral but I didn't have time to explain that to my wife at the time. We don't see feral dogs come up that close to the homestead usually but this one was probably somewhat feral in that may have had some human contact at an early age. 

I suppose I have now thoroughly hijacked this thread. I don't think a dog-shooting experience really fits in but I have typed the whole sordid thing out so I'm leaving it. If it's inappropriate or offensive to anyone though I'll delete it. 






.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Did you have it tested for rabies? 

Feral dogs contract rabies. Marvin might need to be quarantined or euthanized as well. If it was 2.5 months ago, he is probably in the clear.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

selzer said:


> Did you have it tested for rabies?
> 
> Feral dogs contract rabies. Marvin might need to be quarantined or euthanized as well. If it was 2.5 months ago, he is probably in the clear.


No I didn't but I should have. I gingerly scooped it up in the skid steer bucket and placed it on a brush pile at the back of the property I had planned for that evening. 


It was irresponsible in hindsight but this place gets pretty hectic and it was one of those weeks where I couldn't take one more thing on my plate for next week. Sometimes you just got to survive and we were in survival mode at that time. 

I saw Marvin in a pasture about a 1/2 mile away a couple weeks ago living it up chasing something small that I couldn't see. I know it was Marvin because he has this most peculiar gait that you've ever seen. I wish he would hang around. No way he'll pop back in now these Shilohs would put the fear of Lucifer in him. 



.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> It was irresponsible in hindsight but this place gets pretty hectic and it was one of those weeks where I couldn't take one more thing on my plate for next week. Sometimes you just got to survive and we were in survival mode at that time. .


Thats scary to hear from someone who clearly loves their gun as much as you. The way you describe how you shot that dog says a lot...:crazy: I'm not going to say anything else.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Thats scary to hear from someone who clearly loves their gun as much as you. The way you describe how you shot that dog says a lot...:crazy: I'm not going to say anything else.


I don't understand this comment..

I actually liked how horribly graphic he described the shooting. For everyone here saying they'd kill a dog attacking theirs, they have no idea what it's like most of the time. It is NOT pretty. I have not had to kill a large animal thank God. In a fight you really don't have a good choice of what to hit first, and your best bet is a side shot, to get the dog off, then a head shot. You and going to see and hear some horrible things after the first shot and Jupiter described it..


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Vinnie said:


> Hum, let's see;
> 
> A Herding Breed vs. A Fighting Breed?
> 
> :thinking:


Perfectly said


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

But also a man stopping protection breed.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

codmaster said:


> But also a man stopping protection breed.


They still do not have the drive to keep fighting with no regard for self-preservation. Bulldogs will continue fighting, the real ones, with no face. Literally.. Shepherds, not being bred for that trait, will stop if faced with death in most circumstances.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs, maybe; not necessarily the same for bitches. 

That is why I find it odd that they seem to fight dogs moreso than bitches -- the fighting people. 

Bitches are evil. They do not care if they have gaping holes in them. I have heard of bitches fighting while the owner is gone, and when they get home there is blood everywhere, and one bitch is dead and the other needs to be put down.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Dogs, maybe; not necessarily the same for bitches.
> 
> That is why I find it odd that they seem to fight dogs moreso than bitches -- the fighting people.
> 
> Bitches are evil. They do not care if they have gaping holes in them. I have heard of bitches fighting while the owner is gone, and when they get home there is blood everywhere, and one bitch is dead and the other needs to be put down.


Could be the same reason that most police dogs are males - bigger and stronger. maybe!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> They still do not have the drive to keep fighting with no regard for self-preservation. Bulldogs will continue fighting, the real ones, with no face. Literally.. Shepherds, not being bred for that trait, will stop if faced with death in most circumstances.


Probably true although i suspect a few GSDs have a similar drive - at least so i have heard from some Sch people, but not nearly as many as in the true fighting lines of the pit bulls.

I have also heard (second hand of course) that many of the bully breeds have been bred so many generations for other than fighting that this extreme gameness is fading even in these breeds.

As far as gameness and the ability to carry on - some hounds have it also when they are trailing dangerous game they will continue even when suffering fatal type wounds.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I love how you described bitches Selzer.. lol They are pretty nasty when they have it in for each other.. dogs are more interested in seeing who's the boss. Bitches just want each other dead.

Females are tested and matched, female on female, as much as males... Nobody with a proven male would breed to an unproven bitch unless she had an amazing pedigree of proven dogs.



codmaster said:


> Probably true although i suspect a few GSDs have a similar drive - at least so i have heard from some Sch people, but not nearly as many as in the true fighting lines of the pit bulls.
> 
> I have also heard (second hand of course) that many of the bully breeds have been bred so many generations for other than fighting that this extreme gameness is fading even in these breeds.
> 
> As far as gameness and the ability to carry on - some hounds have it also when they are trailing dangerous game they will continue even when suffering fatal type wounds.


That is a very admirable hunting dog to do that... a tough and driven dog. 

Gameness is hard to describe.. to see a dog proving himself game would be very rough to watch, I have seen it (videos) a few times.. They separate the dogs and take them into separate corners. Then they give the one who is getting the worst end of it a chance to cross the pit and show he still wants to fight and wants more.. I have seen a dog with two obviously broken front legs cross the entire pit and fall into the opposing dog. That is game. The dog had no self-preservation, and there was no reason for him to keep going other than the want to keep fighting. And as I said, the worst thing I've seen was one dog having his whole face taken off, nothing but bone and eyes, and continue to keep going. That was disturbing.. but that is the intense want to fight they have, I cannot think of many breeds that have FIGHT drive that strong. These dogs are given several chances to quit, but they just won't. 

I think a GSD who is being faced with death is an intense opponent... for sure. I have already posted about the accident I had with the GSD and the bulldog, the GSD was 13 against a bulldog in her prime and she held her ground reasonably well, she didn't back down until she was could get away, but then she took that chance and quickly retreated because the bulldog just wouldn't stop.

I understand we are talking about a no rules outright dogfight.. but a GSD against and APBT under the Cajun rules.. there would be no contest. A GSD is smart enough to realize they need to stop, or that they have been outmatched. A bulldog is bred not to ever stop. So if, under the rules, the underdog is given numerous chances to give up and walk away I think a GSD would take it.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> I don't understand this comment..
> . . . . You and going to see and hear some horrible things after the first shot and Jupiter described it..


Thanks for sharing your perspective. I shared my experience for the very reason you described; most people fortunately never have to experience that but on a forum this large it's likely someone will. 

I saw sage's snotty reply and chose not to respond. You can't help someone like that who categorizes people immediately based on one single post, nor can you reason with them. Calling me someone who "loves my gun" lol. Guns are tools just like a hammer or a roll of tape. I don't love my roll of tape, my hammer, nor do I love my guns. 

I love my Saviour and my family and my animals. Guns are cold and without a soul or spirit but when you need one sometimes nothing else will do the job. I would rather have subdued the dog with my handy dandy roll of duct tape but I don't think he would have cooperated. 




.


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## beowolf (Sep 3, 2010)

In a recent episode of Send In The Dogs they showed video filmed in public of a GSD being attacked by TWO pitbulls - The GSD survived with a few stitches and had been a 1 on 1 fight I think the pitbull would have got beat up. But, not even two of them finished the GSD, he survived. And then there's the GSD in Ohio who survived 8 gunshots at close range!!


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