# Father-Daughter Breeding - How Concerned Should I Be?



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Guess I'm a bit naive, perhaps a little stupid. I'm surprised to learn this week that my 14-month puppy is a product of a father-daughter breeding.

I didn't know that it was a concern to check on. I just assumed it wasn't something that was done. If it was something that I thought was possible, I'd have looked at the pedigree database more closely. Guess Cassie was so cute, & the only long-haired GSD I found in a reasonable proximity, that I didn't do enough homework. It had been several weeks since my prior GSD had passed & I was eager to get a new companion. 

I recently happened upon Cassie's sister & owner at a dog park we started going to (approx 7 miles from my home). We were just 2 GSD owners who just started chatting about our dogs. Never in a million years, would I have expected to meet my dog's sibbling at the dog park. 

Interestingly, after talking to each other on a couple occasions, we discovered we were both at the breeder's home (70 miles away)on the same day. Her sister's owner mentioned the father-daughter breeding a couple of days ago. I was surprised. I've since looked a lot closer at the pedigree & yes it is a father-daughter breeding.

I've since done some Googling. I've read that it possible to have either bad results, good results or perhaps a combination of both. I guess the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) of a parent/offspring breeding is 25%

*Anyone else ever have/had a dog with this percent of inbreeding? Any significant health or behavioral problems? *

*Info on parents:*
Magischen Wachter Von Schattenherz 
*Dam* born: 08. December 2011
Magischen Wachter Von Schattenherz

KHAOS VON SALERNO
*Sire *Born: 05. June 2010
Khaos Von Salerno


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

It really depends a lot on the particulars. Amount of backmassing, what kind of recessive genetic issues you might expect in these lines, and health and temperament of father/daughter. I'd just enjoy your dog. What's done is done.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

NaughtyNibbler said:


> Guess I'm a bit naive, perhaps a little stupid. I'm surprised to learn this week that my 14-month puppy is a product of a father-daughter breeding.
> 
> I didn't know that it was a concern to check on. I just assumed it wasn't something that was done. If it was something that I thought was possible, I'd have looked at the pedigree database more closely. Guess Cassie was so cute, & the only long-haired GSD I found in a reasonable proximity, that I didn't do enough homework. It had been several weeks since my prior GSD had passed & I was eager to get a new companion.
> 
> ...



This isn't a dog, but my Arabian mare was bred to her half brother (both had the same sire) whether intentionally or by neglect. I bought mare and unborn foal, and had the resulting foal for 20 years, til I had to put him down last year. I had the dam for 17 years. 

They couldn't have been more dissimilar. She was a beautiful chestnut with a gorgeous dry head, a beautiful body and the worst legs I've ever seen on a horse. Her son was bay, like his sire, didn't have nearly as nice a head as Amy but he had better legs. Their personalities were different as night and day and interestingly--he's the ONLY foal that survived of that particular line past 5 years old, they all had an intestinal defect which killed the sire, grandsire and resulting foals, except mine. He was healthy for his entire life until his death, never once colicked and if he hadn't injured himself I'm sure he'd have lived longer than 20 years.
When I had their pedigrees done, 20 generations back to desert-bred, the amount of line breeding in both dam and sire lines was pretty alarming. As it was, she never had another foal and he was castrated and neither of them had health issues, nor were they mentally deficient in any way. 

So, yeah inbreeding and line breeding crap happens, often for the stupidest of reasons, but hopefully you'll be fine and so will your dog. 

Sometimes it creates a super animal if the genetics are right. Sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

When I was breeding dairy goats, there were many herds who would breed a whole crop of daughters back to the sire. That would bring out all the "nasties" so you would know what would pop up, and possibly also get you a couple of nice type kids.

Nasties would be culled.

Not something I ever did


----------



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Saco said:


> It really depends a lot on the particulars. Amount of backmassing, what kind of recessive genetic issues you might expect in these lines, and health and temperament of father/daughter. I'd just enjoy your dog. What's done is done.


*Saco:* Thanks for your input. I plan on enjoying her. She is so different from my prior 2 GSD's. Just continue to be frustrated with her bouts of extreme hyperactivity & destructiveness (unlike I've ever experienced). Hoping it's an adolescent phase and not a genetic flaw.



cvamoca said:


> This isn't a dog, but my Arabian mare was bred to her half brother (both had the same sire) whether intentionally or by neglect. I bought mare and unborn foal, and had the resulting foal for 20 years, til I had to put him down last year. I had the dam for 17 years.
> 
> They couldn't have been more dissimilar. She was a beautiful chestnut with a gorgeous dry head, a beautiful body and the worst legs I've ever seen on a horse. Her son was bay, like his sire, didn't have nearly as nice a head as Amy but he had better legs. Their personalities were different as night and day and interestingly--he's the ONLY foal that survived of that particular line past 5 years old, they all had an intestinal defect which killed the sire, grandsire and resulting foals, except mine. He was healthy for his entire life until his death, never once colicked and if he hadn't injured himself I'm sure he'd have lived longer than 20 years.
> When I had their pedigrees done, 20 generations back to desert-bred, the amount of line breeding in both dam and sire lines was pretty alarming. As it was, she never had another foal and he was castrated and neither of them had health issues, nor were they mentally deficient in any way.


* cvamoca: * Thanks for sharing your story about your Arabian mare & offspring. I'm hoping that Cassie is just having an extreme adolescence & that things will even out in the near future. 

Cassie is long haired & her sister that we met is short haired. Cassie is a beautiful dog & she gets a lot of complements when we walk in the park. Interestingly, I've encountered several people who have had a long-haired GSD in their past. Just hoping that she evens out in the near future & displays a beautiful temperment.

I inquired with the breeder early on, as to whether Cassie was the rowdy puppy in the litter (because of her extremely destructive behavior) The answer I got was that she wasn't. Now, I'll still forge ahead to keep her busy with exercise, play, mental stimulation & obedience training. Hoping the issue is more me than her, so I'll keep training me as well.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There isn’t anything you can do about it now. Why didn’t the breeder disclose this to you? Did they give you the pedigree before you bought the dog?


----------



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> When I was breeding dairy goats, there were many herds who would breed a whole crop of daughters back to the sire. That would bring out all the "nasties" so you would know what would pop up, and possibly also get you a couple of nice type kids. Nasties would be culled. Not something I ever did


*Thecowboysgirl:* Thanks for your input. I'm hoping Cassie doesn't end up with a title of "Nastie". I'm forging ahead, as if she is just an obnoxious adolescent, but when I heard about the father-daughter breeding, I got to wondering.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I found the breeder”s website and see they are mixing WGSLs with pet line and American alone. Royalaire are oversized pet lines. Von Salerno is a reputable breeder of WGSLs and work their dogs. They do a lot of titling. This breeder has 11 breeding females. I wonder what their justification is for mixing lines, and breeding a father to a daughter. I wonder if Von Salerno knows they are using one of their dogs as a stud.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> When I was breeding dairy goats, there were many herds who would breed a whole crop of daughters back to the sire. That would bring out all the "nasties" so you would know what would pop up, and possibly also get you a couple of nice type kids.
> 
> Nasties would be culled.
> 
> Not something I ever did






They do the same with chickens, daughters to fathers and sons to mothers to "fix" certain traits. But chickens are not meant to be rocket scientists. Usually in birds you are working for at least 7 generations or years and you can out cross and cull for undesirable traits. I understand the point of it, but still...don't like it.

I don't know why it would be done in dogs, or horses. Well I do (to fix certain traits), but see above. I'm not a fan.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It all depends on how the genetics go together. Reputable breeders don't breed father/daughter.

It is what it is now. Just check her hips/elbows/tv and love her.


----------



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> There isn’t anything you can do about it now. Why didn’t the breeder disclose this to you? Did they give you the pedigree before you bought the dog?
> 
> I found the breeder”s website and see they are mixing WGSLs with pet line and American alone. Royalaire are oversized pet lines. Von Salerno is a reputable breeder of WGSLs and work their dogs. They do a lot of titling. This breeder has 11 breeding females. I wonder what their justification is for mixing lines, and breeding a father to a daughter. I wonder if Von Salerno knows they are using one of their dogs as a stud.


* LuvShepherds: *Thanks for your input. I don't know why they bred a father & daughter - wondering if it's more lucrative for the breeder to have less dogs & breed only with dogs that they own. They had links to pedigrees on their website. I followed the links, but I wasn't familiar with the pedigree DB. I may have missed it, by identifying with the father's common name, versus pedigree name. I'm not sure how the sister's owner discovered the breeding situation. I'll have to ask him, the next time I see him at the dog park.

I'm not trying to cause trouble for the breeder. I was just a bit stunned to find out about the father-daughter breeding (wasn't something I thought was likely). If the breeder was a back-yard type of breeder, I'd have been more cautious. The owner of Cassie's sister is pleased with his dog so far. Their Facebook page denotes some happy dog owners. Guess others are happy.

At this point, I'm hoping that Cassie is just a rambunctious adolescent (no genetic issues) & that I just need to keep working with her. I started taking her to the dog park about 6 weeks ago. She has been slow to feel comfortable & play with the other dogs. Meeting her sister & another GSD has been good for her & she is starting to get more comfortable with playing chase with them & a few other dogs. At least for the last 2 weeks, when we return home from a walk in the park & a visit to the dog park, she is pooped out for a couple hours (then ready to go again).

I've held off with using an e-collar, but I think I need to start using one to deal with Cassie when she is in a hyperactive state & won't comply with any commands. I have to put a stop to the jumping & biting with me, when she wants to play & while we play.

Cassie is a good looking dog & I get lots of complements, when we walk at the park. Just hoping that her behavior evens out by around age 2 (give or take a few months).


----------



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> It all depends on how the genetics go together. Reputable breeders don't breed father/daughter.
> 
> It is what it is now. Just check her hips/elbows/tv and love her.



I agree. Chalk it up to a learning experience


----------

