# E-collar training?



## volkeyn (Nov 25, 2015)

I have my 9 week old pup and was looking online training classes after he is 5 months old...came across a web-site about e-collar training, which they start training the pup after he is 5 months old. 
My breeder told me not to use treats to train...I also don't want to feed him anything that he is not used to...maybe after 5 months old I can start giving him some treats to train...BUT IT IS REALLY VERY HARD TO TRAIN THESE LITTLE MONSTERS...I don't want my pup to lose his soul and be a robot with the e-collar training but looks like there is no other easy way? 
What do you think about e-collar training (below link)? opinions , pros/cons and advises are appreciated...

Northern Virginia Dog Trainers | Off Leash K9 Training

Thanks


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I personally wouldn't be deciding on e collar or not when your pup is so young. I like e collars, have used them on all my adults. I am 9 mos in with my pup and absolutely no need as of yet. I have not needed to put a prong on him yet either. Keep an open mind but get to know your pup.

Food is such a great resource in training and I have used treats since day 1 with all of my dogs, puppies ect. 

I didn't follow the link but if you are considering sending your pup off for training, investigate the trainer long and hard, even harder and more thorough if they plan on using e collar. Ask them whose philosophy of E Collar training have they studied and is most similar to theirs? Ask them if they use the collar as positive punishment or negative reinforcement? If they can't give a satisfactory answer to those questions I would be hesitant. If YOU don't know that much about e collar training, start educating yourself.

But I guess most of all, get to know your pup, don't be afraid to use food and reward, make the dog/pup earn his rewards, and then he sees you as the gatekeeper to ALL GOOD THINGS, everything he wants most he gets from you as reward for good behavior. Then you are engaged with your pup and he wants to work for you....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Huh? It's hard to train these little monsters? I must not have a german shepherd then... 

Mako has proven to be quite biddable and very intelligent. He LOVES training sessions. He can pick up a new command with only a handful of repetitions. From what I understand that is pretty par for the course with these dogs.

I have been using treats since day one. I built drive for tug and ball and phased out treats for some things around 5 months. He has only needed 2, Yes 2, Physical corrections so far in these 10 months (that may change as he has entered the teenage years, we shall see). He has good off leash skills because we have been working on those since day one. Treats are used while shaping new behaviors. Tug is used to reward learned behaviors. Corrections (99% verbal for my boy ymmv) for the behaviors he knows but did not follow through with the command. 

Training things like sit, down, stand, and heel are easy when you have a treat to lure the dog. 

I honestly do not understand why your breeder has told you no treats ever while training. They work. They work well. *shrug*

As for the e collar. It can be a good tool. If you are not familiar with it I highly suggest you work with a trainer you trust who is very experienced in their usage. Atleast until you understand the timing. I have actually shocked myself with them before. On the lowest setting it was barely a pleasant tingling sensation. On its highest it was startling and a bit painful. Left the area slightly numb. Similar to the zap I got from changing a broken light bulb having forgotten to unplug the lamp. Lots of room in between the two to find a setting that the dog would respond to. I would venture to guess that a hard leash correction causes more pain then the e shock stimulation that most dogs would respond to. IMHO if you are comfortable using leash corrections then there should be no moral issues with e collars. In fact I think an e collar is probably a "safer" option in terms of actual damage and injury physical corrections can cause. 

That said. I don't use an e collar. No need for it right now. I do prefer to exhaust positive reinforcement and negatives punishment options before adding a positive punishment while training my dogs. I do believe that it fosters a better working relationship. But each dog varies, mine is thriving this way, others wont. It is a relief to me knowing that something like the e collar is an option. I am adding more and more distance in our training routines and have been considering an e collar (probably on a low or vibrate only setting for my boy, I doubt he would need much more then that) to pair with my verbal correction, but we shall see.

That said, if you are uncomfortable with the idea of an e collar - there are plenty of other options, methods and training theories you can try.

I think right now though at 9 weeks you shouldn't be worrying about this too much. Focus on bonding and making training FUN for your baby. Use treats if you want to. (About the food he is not used to thing - i started adding variety to the diet on day 3 at home. But if you are worried you can always use bits of his regular kibble or something yummy and bland like boiled chicken) Nothing better then seeing a GSD pup trying so hard to figure out the training games you are playing. Seeing that engagement and enthusiasm is awesome! You can worry about crossing the e collar bridge when you get there.

I'm going to go do a quick training session. I got myself all excited about it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Everything voodoo lamb said, I agree


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I used the local Off Leash K9 Training franchise and didn't really fully accomplish what I was hoping for..... it wasn't basic obedience I wanted out of them...I was looking for training to beat her dog reactivity. The kid I trained with was an ex-military explosives dog handler who spent time in Afghanistan....he was good on using the e-collar for basic obedience but as I said...wasn't my dog's particular need. The protocol he trained with was good and not over the top or even close regarding the use and levels on the e-collar. The trainer I dealt with received some of his education/training from Vohne Liche Kennels in Denver, IN......they seem like a fairly reputable training facility....others may disagree?

If the protocol of all these Off Leash K9 outfits are the same...the vast majority of the stim levels used in their approach is minimal for basic obedience....don't know why it would need to be any other way unless you have a real hard case of a dog.

The highest stim level I believe I used on their collar was maybe a 10 out of 127 while training my dog obedience wise ( dog reactivity training was a different story) and when I put the collar on my neck, a 10 was no big deal...I start to prepare myself by the time it's closer to 20. BUT, my dog never freaked out at these lower levels. I do however have one critique of their protocol and there is no break in period to get the dog acclimated to the collar....they strap it on and go. You might read up on the different methods regarding the introduction of an e-collar and ask appropriate questions to the trainers at N.VA Off Leash K9 regarding this subject....just a suggestion.

As far as treats go for training....well, I have my opinion and it would be that it's a great motivator/reward to teach the desired behavior in the beginning but once the behavior is learned...food treats have their failings down the road as I'm sure your goal is to get the dog to work for you..not a piece of protein. Treats, lures, etc. do work well but you can easily end up with a dog that isn't very consistent/reliable without the promise of treats etc. So maybe your breeder knows something. If I did it all over again with my current dog, I'd of faded out the food rewards much earlier and taken advantage of her other desires as a reward....

Yeah, the age of 5 months is something to consider and I do not know enough to have a valid opinion....seems a bit young to me but that's just me.


SuperG


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree with the posts above. As far as no treats what was the reasoning. I prefer to use freeze dried liver,tripe, and lung for treats. very rarely he will get a fromm cookie. this keeps the treats healthy and seems to be pretty easy on the stomach. Plus I don't see how my dog would have been that engaged and willing if not for something to work for. an atta boy, pet and a ball thrown will only go so far with a 10 week old puppy.


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm kinda surprised about the comment about these monsters being hard to train! I have found that these monsters will do anything in their power to get your attention, so training is so easy! Makes me kinda wish I had a pup but I have my hands full with my grown monsters who already know so much, I'm working hard to find things they don't know to teach them!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why no treats? 

Let me ask you this....If you went to work all week and on Friday your only pay was a pat on the back OR the release of the stim from the e-collar, would you go back on Monday? 

You want them to do something for you then you need to motivate and you need to pay them. Once you do that, these monsters are easy to train.


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## volkeyn (Nov 25, 2015)

Thank you all for the comments and advises. I think I will start giving him some treats for training. As far as e-collar, I will wait until he is 5 months old and decide based on his behaviors at that age. 
IMHO I don't want my pup to focus on the treats instead he should focus on me. Think about yourself, you would do everything for someone you love , right? For your family for example...Maybe this is not true for humans, because we always think about our benefits and if there is nothing for us then we are out of the game. But animals are different and their love must be unconditional, therefore they should obey to please his owner not to get treats. I don't believe in examples like " working all week and getting a pat on my back" thing, sorry...I am not a pro but human physiology and animal physiology are not the same....What I agree is, yes when they are puppy and until they mature they will like the treats , but once they mature they should please their family unconditionally...so maybe training may take longer without the treats but at the end they will do everything for you not for the treats....
That being said, they are puppies and until they mature , yes I will use treats. But as they mature I will gradually cut the treats. I am not a pro but I am listening to my instincts and observing the puppy. It is really hard to have him focused on me as a puppy.
One other question, what happens after you train the puppy with treats and then stop using the treats, let's say after 5 months old. Do they still obey your commands, listen to you? What is their reaction? Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and they stop listening to you?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've always used treats and a clicker with puppies and never had a issue with them not listening when the treats were phased and given less and less. I agree with Michelle, it's sweetening the pot so whether it's a toy or praise or a treat they get rewarded for complying

The more you reward the positive behaviours the more they offer them. So I'm the opposite and I want to built a foundation with my dog that proves without a doubt I am the BEST thing EVER in their life and if they want something they can come to me to get it. So I would never ever even consider at such a young age introducing something like a ecollar because I don't want to start or ruin the relationship when there's other positive avenues to work with first. That would be my absolute last resort


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I used the local Off Leash K9 Training franchise and didn't really fully accomplish what I was hoping for..... it wasn't basic obedience I wanted out of them...I was looking for training to beat her dog reactivity. The kid I trained with was an ex-military explosives dog handler who spent time in Afghanistan....he was good on using the e-collar for basic obedience but as I said...wasn't my dog's particular need. The protocol he trained with was good and not over the top or even close regarding the use and levels on the e-collar. The trainer I dealt with received some of his education/training from Vohne Liche Kennels in Denver, IN......they seem like a fairly reputable training facility....others may disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was curious as if the e collar helped at all with your dogs dog reactvity in the slightest or made it worse or no change. We have been working through the same issues with dog reactivity was hoping for a cure. Our last shepherd was already trained when we got him at 2 years old. He did not even acknowledge other dogs whatsoever as if they were invisible with no help on my part. Did not interact at all with my moms dogs when we went over. I remember thinking in the beginning there was something wrong with him in this regard. Only can i really appreciate this skill more then ever. If a loose dog approached us he was dominant but they would have a nice greeting and we would walk away. I realize my current dog reactive dog has more of a challenge but i wish would come at least half way looking like this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

volkeyn said:


> Thank you all for the comments and advises. I think I will start giving him some treats for training. As far as e-collar, I will wait until he is 5 months old and decide based on his behaviors at that age.
> IMHO I don't want my pup to focus on the treats instead he should focus on me. Think about yourself, you would do everything for someone you love , right? For your family for example...Maybe this is not true for humans, because we always think about our benefits and if there is nothing for us then we are out of the game. But *animals are different and their love must be unconditional, *therefore they should obey to please his owner not to get treats. I don't believe in examples like " working all week and getting a pat on my back" thing, sorry...I am not a pro but human physiology and animal physiology are not the same....What I agree is, yes when they are puppy and until they mature they will like the treats , but once they mature* they should please their family unconditionally.*..so maybe training may take longer without the treats but at the end they will do everything for you not for the treats....
> That being said, they are puppies and until they mature , yes I will use treats. But as they mature I will gradually cut the treats. I am not a pro but I am listening to my instincts and observing the puppy.* It is really hard to have him focused on me as a puppy.*
> One other question, what happens after you train the puppy with treats and then stop using the treats, let's say after 5 months old. *Do they still obey your commands, listen to you*? What is their reaction? Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and *they stop listening to you*?


Have you ever heard of engagement? Having a pup with enthusiasm to work WITH you?

Unconditional is unfair. You need to be fair to your puppy, and reward for effort. 
Please find someone to mentor you on these skills. You will find that dog training is actually fun!


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

volkeyn said:


> Maybe this is not true for humans, because we always think about our benefits and if there is nothing for us then we are out of the game. But animals are different and their love must be unconditional, therefore they should obey to please his owner not to get treats.


I have a different opinion about this. I'm far from an expert, but I think animals are in it for what they can get, too. If a puppy doesn't experience a positive consequence for his behavior (a treat, play, toy, freedom, praise, etc.) there's no motivation to repeat it. Once they KNOW the behavior and have trust and respect for you, then they will do it because of the relationship... that being you are the leader and they trust and respect you and want to do what you say. But that's after the relationship is formed. 

By the way, treat training will absolutely work for children! LOL! Most human children behave either for rewards or the threat of punishment. 



> One other question, what happens after you train the puppy with treats and then stop using the treats, let's say after 5 months old. Do they still obey your commands, listen to you? What is their reaction? Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and they stop listening to you?


My 9-year-old GSD is the most obedient dog! I can take him anywhere under voice command. He hasn't gotten treats for performing behaviors for many years. I give him treats sometimes for my pleasure (his fave being dried sweet potatoes) but he listens to me. And he was started on a clicker and treats, just as my current puppy is being trained. 

A treat is just a tool. A tool that introduces you as "the owner and giver of all things good". It's a tool that sets the dog up for a lifetime of training, so the dog realizes... "If I perform this behavior, I am rewarded by this person." It's one piece of the 'relationship-forming' puzzle. Eventually, the dog will perform because of the relationship you form with him, not for the promise of a treat. 

I look at dog training as a toolbox with MANY options available, from clickers and treats to aversives. Any tool *that works* for you and the dog AND adds to the relationship, is a good tool. I would consider an e-collar if there was a specific behavior that I wanted or wanted to stop, and it was the best tool, but only when the dog is older and if I had confidence that I knew how to use it properly, by learning from a professional.

I considered using one for my dog that pulled madly on the leash. But I learned an alternative method that worked perfectly for us, so I didn't need the e-collar.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

volkeyn said:


> .BUT IT IS REALLY VERY HARD TO TRAIN THESE LITTLE MONSTERS.
> One other question, what happens after you train the puppy with treats and then stop using the treats, let's say after 5 months old. Do they still obey your commands, listen to you? What is their reaction? Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and they stop listening to you?


I'm not sure what you are expecting from a 9 week old pup as far as training goes....I'd be most concerned about building a bond with the little guy at this point and some basic house training but mostly developing the bond. The attention span your pup has right now towards additional training is so minimal but certain characteristics and behaviors can certainly be initiated. I'd start to shape a relationship and keep it fun and light....probably through play as you try to create engagement. Your pup probably will have more desire and attention shredding a box to pieces rather than sitting patiently listening to it's new human trying to train him in any formal basic obedience...be patient but look for every opportunity to take advantage of behaviors you can capture and turn into a learning/teaching moment. A pup is going to fail at a significantly higher rate and the more you create the situation where the pup fails, it will only make it more difficult as time passes....so seize the moments where your pup does something properly ( regardless whether it was instructed or not) and make it a watershed moment with your positive communication and feedback to the pup. 

Even though I am not a huge advocate of stuffing a dog's mouth full of food treats...they certainly do have their benefit in the beginning and at other moments...dog's are wizards over their food bowls...IQ seems to spike...amazing how that works but not what I am looking for. As far as transitioning and fading food treats, some good info has been posted already...but you just reduce the frequency and consistency of the food reward...change the intervals of the food reward...make the dog perform with the anticipation of the reward and raise your expectations and the dog's performance level in order to get a food scrap, I suppose. 

Your thought " Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and they stop listening to you?" Well, I guess if that's the case all those treats created absolutely no engagement unless you are wearing a piece of raw meat..something akin to Lady Gaga's meat dress ( I'm embarrassed I know this and apologize in advance). There are numerous ways to get a dog's engagement and the people in here who have competitive dogs and true working dogs have obviously succeeded at creating and capturing the dog's engagement and are the ones who have the best knowledge on this topic IMO. 

One other thought regarding a comment you made..." ... but once they mature they should please their family unconditionally"..Yes, I guess they "should" but only if you earn/deserve that privilege throughout the entire process.

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

volkeyn said:


> One other question, what happens after you train the puppy with treats and then stop using the treats, let's say after 5 months old. Do they still obey your commands, listen to you? What is their reaction? Aren't they disappointed since they cannot get anymore treats and they stop listening to you?


That's not how motivational training works.  You don't just use a bunch of treats until a certain age and then suddenly stop. In the beginning, the rate of reinforcement needs to be high, but as commands are learned and become generalized, you can move to a random reinforcement schedule and then begin to phase out food or toy rewards, _for that behavior_. But if you're training something new, the rate of reinforcement for that would be high, and if you're increasing difficulty to a learned behavior, by training in a more distracting environment, for example, the rate of reinforcement should reflect that. It's an ongoing process. 

You can and should also pair rewards with praise and real life rewards. I used treats to teach my dogs to drop a ball so I could throw it for them again. But now, having the ball thrown again is the reward, I don't need to use food anymore because I'm no longer training the "out".


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jenny720 said:


> Was curious as if the e collar helped at all with your dogs dog reactvity in the slightest or made it worse or no change. We have been working through the same issues with dog reactivity was hoping for a cure.


It helped in a way I didn't appreciate while this particular training was occurring...as well as made a difference in an obvious way. The higher level stims I referred to with no "freebie" was targeting the reactivity and nothing else..if my dog broke from any commanded position because of the presence of another dog, she took hit from the collar at a higher level than any other training exercises....I had to catch her before she was over threshold and basically break the escalation of her reactivity. This higher level application did help but did not eliminate the problem overall. However, what I found later on was by increasing her overall obedience and adherence to it, using the e-collar on very low settings had more benefit in the big picture. By increasing the obedience skills of my dog and being able to keep her under command in situations where she used to lose her crap, she is able to exist in the environment without these fear/aggression tendencies coming to fruition...basically she has discovered her reactivity is not required and she can rely on me. A while ago, Slamdunc described how his dog operates in situations where if he didn't have the full engagement and obedience of his dog, the dog would not be able to accomplish the task at hand. Enhanced obedience and a higher level of engagement/focus on the handler seems to be the ticket to beat my dog's reactivity. It's a chore but the overall process makes both human and dog a much better team.

SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes thank you. I was curious if it made a difference. Always e collar on back of my mind. We are doing well especially in training in noseworks we sit for nearly 3 hours next to other dogs with theM Sitting nearby and or passing us for potty breaks. Having him focusing on me so far had no occurrences is his class. Having him practicing small obedience exercises also helps i find when a dog is going to pass close. I also noticed he is more relaxed around the other dogs in this class as we are there for a period of time. It is when a dog is focusing on him is the issue if i dont catch it fast enough mainly if we are out and about. Focus yes is the only key no doubt. It is a long road. Constant effort and learning not to go backwards. I notice as he maturing the focus is more intense so it will be on our side.


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## stingeragent (Mar 23, 2016)

To the OP. There is nothing wrong with using treats in the beginning. This is the easiest way to train a pup. As the others have said you don't have to keep using the treats, even when they are young. If you have a smart dog you can teach something like sit within a session or 2 easily. Once they know what they are supposed to do, don't reward every sit. Make sure you still mark it , however you choose to do so. If the pup sits the first time treat, then ask again, dont treat, then ask again, maybe give them a good head scratch, ask again treat,, and just continue to mix it up from there. Ultimately after they "know" the behavior you want to keep them guessing. There's no reason to teach sit at 2 months, and keep treating for every sit up to 5 months of age, it doesn't take anywhere near that long. Also if you have a dog that loves toy's, after they have the behavior down you can very very easily reward them with a toy. If they like chasing the ball, have them do 5 repitions of sit, or down or whatever, and then praise them and let them chase a ball a couple times. Rinse and repeat. Some dogs are also very tug motivated. Reward them with a quick tugging session instead of a treat, ( again this is all after they know the behavior). As for Ecollars, do not, I say again do not get a cheap one off of ebay. I researched a lot on ecollars, and being cheap at the time I bought a 0-100 level stim one off ebay. Now from the research I did I saw that most people typically can't even feel the ecollar until a level 20, so naturally, i get my ebay collar in the mail, crank it up to 20, slap it on my arm and pow, it was excruciating. Felt like I had grabbed a power line. I can only image what a 100 would have felt like. If you want to be humane, I'd say always test it on yourself first. If I hadn't have done that, there's no telling what my dog would have gone through. You won't have that issue with a good name brand one in the 150+ price range though. They can be great tools, you just have to have good timing to make sure it is effective.


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