# Sable, patterns, pigment?



## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Before I disappoint anyone, I have not included a picture (yet) because I wanted to discuss a few things using her as an "example" in description, and trying to apply what I hope I am learning to what I am judging about her...if that makes sense?

One of my dogs is confusing me as to what color she actually is, so it had me thinking...what is the cut off for patterned dogs and sable dogs? From what I have read, it depends on 1) the genetics behind the dog 2) banding of hairs

I do not know the genetics of this dog.

She appears black and red, but does not look like a 'traditional' black and red (you know how a lot of WGSL dogs look...very similar?), and to confuse me more she has bright points - the hair on the inside of her legs is almost white. Is this a pattern thing or a poor pigment thing?

She has a saddle, but it is not cleanly defined. Dark hairs mix with the red on her shoulders and thighs. All of the hairs in her her saddle are banded. Would this mean she is technically a patterned sable, or is this another sign of poor pigment?

Just a few questions before I post a picture...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

without a picture it would be difficult to say -- however from the description you give , especially the white or bright points makes me think that this is a black and tan with poor pigment ,

there is no cut - off . It is either a black and tan . Or it is a sable.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Carmen based on your description.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Poorly pigmented black and tan. She has to have a sable parent to be a sable at all. If both parents are black and tan, she's black and tan


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm going to try and get a decent picture of her today. I was ~95% sure she was black/red but her saddle recently changed color from deep black to all the hairs being banded in the last few months (it seems), so I was not sure. I cannot find any pictures of other GSDs who look exactly like her.

I agree with the pigment thing, it makes sense. But why is her 'tan' a red/mahogany color? She also has a dark mask on her face. But she also has a white chest spot. Is pigment relating to red and pigment relating to black on different genetics in the GSD? They are two different 'types' of pigment, correct?

I know white spots are a fault, but happen. Are these genetic or 'random'?

Thank you for the replies, I know these are very basic questions.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the breed carries a white spotting gene. up to a certain size they are acceptable, though of course not ideal. 

is the banding in her saddle uniform over the entire thing? or is it concentrated primarily along the spine? it could be that she has simply developed a bitch stripe


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

How old is she. Both of my Sables had white on them up until a certain point. Athena has lost all of hers. Apollo still has just a touch on his belly and chest. It is also dissipating.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

She is 18 mos old. She has a wide bitch stripe - is it possible that it just extended to the entire saddle? Do bitch stripes mean poor pigment? Do they mean anything when assessing a dog?

So for a black/tan or black/red, in terms of color...rich colors are preferred, so is a saddle with all black hair more desirable and banded hairs undesirable? Or is it not that important, let-us-see-the-dog-work sort of thing? 

Do bright points = poor pigment?

My initial guess on her color/pattern was black/red with a large saddle and bright points. I read something about banded hairs = sable so I looked at her and went "hmmmm...." and thus this post. I'm asking for my own education, I still think she is beautiful regardless.

Again, sorry if these are dumb/novice questions. I am just trying to understand all the standard stuff more, color/pattern seems a good place to start. 

Her are a few pictures if they upload properly. She isn't stacked or positioned in the first one at all, I was just trying to get a picture of her standing still by a neutral background, lol :grin2:

p.s. Yes, I know she needs to lose a few pounds/be in better shape, we are working on that. I have gone way too easy on her exercise routine and we are changing that. With unknown history/genetics I was trying to be very low impact with her exercise, but as she has matured she started packing on some extra!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Simple answer: She's a black and tan.

Her color really isn't off from what you see a lot of the time.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes, simply a black tan. In that photo, I wouldn't even really consider her "red" Of course, such things can be hard to judge in photos and "red" vs "tan" can be very subjective anyway. 

and she is what is considered a "blanket back" pattern, which is just a more descriptive term for a dog with an extended saddle.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I wouldn't call her blanketed at all. Blankets extend down so the thighs are black.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've heard blanket and extended saddle used for dogs that look like this.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Looks like a regular saddle back Black and Tan (or red), like my dogs. Here's Carly for reference.









She was darker at 18 months. She's 5 or 6 years here.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

All that "sable-ing" around the neck and shoulders, and down the back is common in black and tan dogs. Doesn't mean poor pigment. Carly has great pigment, beautiful dark eyes.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Her red doesn't show up well in the picture (she looks darker in person) but it shows her bright points well.

How is a good way to judge pigment? Are tan/red and black judged separately, or how they compliment one another? 

For tan/red, what is considered poor vs good? Is it the darkness of color or how uniform it is?

Using her as an example, if she has poor pigment: why? Is it the tan or the black? For the black, is it because the hairs are banded? Do bright points = bad pigment? What causes them?
If she has ok or good pigment, why?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

To me, good pigment refers to the leather - nose, pads - being dark. Dark eyes. I've also heard faded saddles, and not much of a mask, as being referred to as poor pigment. I have ASLs, and as long as the dog doesn't looked washed out, the intensity of the tan or red doesn't much matter.


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