# Working SV breeders?



## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm looking for a breeder who has typical west german type, withOUT the roached backs. Basically, a typical black and red with dogs suitable for sieger and UKC. But I also want one who has dogs that have very, very good drive for Schutzhund amongst other things (ie agility, tracking, etc.)

Any recommendations? I'm wondering how you all rate Mittelwest dogs working abilities? I love their type, but virtually any dog nowadays can earn a SCH3 title from what I can tell, so I'd like an opinion from people who have strictly working lines.

It doesn't necessarily have to be as good as the strict K9 and protection lines, but I DO want it to be above average in terms of working abilities found in most show lines. And I do want it to be very well pigmented black and red.



Also, my partner wants to know of any GSD breeders (any line except american show) that have red bi-colors?

Thanks!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Just gonna throw this out there... again.

A sloped back is NOT a roach. A roach is when the highest point of the spine exceeds the height of the withers and is highly undesirable in the show ring.

Really wish people would quit throwing that term around willy-nilly.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Look for west german working lines which are still commonly a higher contrast black and tan or even many ddr lines are black and tans

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Working lines have bi-colors but I wouldn't call them red. I've never seen a bi-color that has the same red like a really red WGSL.

Getting what you want from a WGSL is not impossible but you have to look very carefully at the pedigrees and dogs being bred and know what you want. Be very wary of just titles themselves, you'll want to actually SEE the parents working. As recent threads and video footage of the BSZS prove, most of these dogs have SchH3 titles but can barely heel 20 paces and won't engage in bitework. I have a very red WGSL male that is titled in many things and holds his own against many working dogs but it was very important for me to get a good understanding of his parentage. In some respects I also just got lucky because when I bought him, I didn't intend to do Schutzhund. I knew his mother well and saw her train and work many times. I never met his father because he was in Germany (now Denmark) but spoke with his breeder/owner and others who had seen him work before he was sold around just to be bred and never trained or worked after that. If I were to buy another WGSL (which I'm sure I will), I would take my time to find the right breeding.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I dont know if ive ever seen a "red" bicolor
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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Really wish people would quit throwing that term around willy-nilly.


There's really not a better term for a dog that has a curved back instead of a straight one


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My Pecora vom Enckhausen is a bicolor.... with very red points. Her son Ari is a sable with rich chestnut/red points.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Xeph said:


> There's really not a better term for a dog that has a curved back instead of a straight one


Yes there is - just use the correct term. Slope. 

This is a true roach. As far as I'm aware, no one is actively breeding FOR this trait. Highly undesirable and frowned upon in the show ring.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> just use the correct term. Slope.


I don't believe it's a correct term. When I think of a slope, I don't think of a curve. I think straight.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

High Vivvers.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I don't believe it's a correct term. When I think of a slope, I don't think of a curve. I think straight.


Directly from the German standard: 
"The top line extends from the point where the neck meets the skull past the well developed withers and the gently downward *sloping *back to the slightly *sloping *croup without a visible break."


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Konotashi said:


> Directly from the German standard:
> "The top line extends from the point where the neck meets the skull past the well developed withers and the gently downward *sloping *back to the slightly *sloping *croup without a visible break."


There SHOULD be a slight slope as the standard says. But it should also be a STRAIGHT downward slope, as the standard also says (without break). I feel many WGSL have obvious breaks where there is usually more of an extreme slope continuing into the croup. I read this as against the standard, and I also believe this is what the OP is referring to. May not be a true "roach back" but close enough IMHO. 

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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> There SHOULD be a slight slope as the standard says. But it should also be a STRAIGHT downward slope, as the standard also says (without break). I feel many WGSL have obvious breaks where there is usually more of an extreme slope continuing into the croup. I read this as against the standard, and I also believe this is what the OP is referring to. May not be a true "roach back" but close enough IMHO.


Bingo. That's exactly my quibble with it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Pecora vom Enckhausen Pecora Vom Enckhausen
would not be considered a bi-colour , correctly a melanistic black and tan (blanket)


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> There SHOULD be a slight slope as the standard says. But it should also be a STRAIGHT downward slope, as the standard also says (without break). I feel many WGSL have obvious breaks where there is usually more of an extreme slope continuing into the croup. I read this as against the standard, and I also believe this is what the OP is referring to. May not be a true "roach back" but close enough IMHO.
> 
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Apparently this is when the standard is open to interpretation. Funny how I don't recall ever seeing a GSD with a straight back in the big-wig shows for GSLs. At least not recently. (Not saying I agree with it, because _some _are extreme). 

And 'close enough' doesn't make it an actual roach back.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Konotashi said:


> Apparently this is when the standard is open to interpretation. Funny how I don't recall ever seeing a GSD with a straight back in the big-wig shows for GSLs. At least not recently. (Not saying I agree with it, because _some _are extreme).
> 
> And 'close enough' doesn't make it an actual roach back.


If you see my examples. The sable WL has a slight slope through the withers down to the croup without a break in a straight line. Even in a natural stance that dog would have a slight slope. Straight does not mean parallel to the ground. 

And I meant close enough that its a fairly equal fault IMHO

Those show lines simply do not. They have what I would consider an obvious break. I guess it is open to interpretation but I dont know what else "without a break" would mean except a change in the angle of the back. Therefore I believe they are not correct according to the standard.

Ive seen some very nice showlines dont get me wrong. But the standard isnt written so openly that 20 people should read 20 different things

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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> If you see my examples. The sable WL has a slight slope through the withers down to the croup without a break in a straight line. Even in a natural stance that dog would have a slight slope. Straight does not mean parallel to the ground.
> 
> And I meant close enough that its a fairly equal fault IMHO
> 
> ...


Then you're referring to a break in the topline, not a roach.

Also, a break in topline is a fault. It's in the very quote I posted above. 

"...sloping back to the slightly sloping croup *without a* visible *break*."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gagsd said:


> High Vivvers.


LOL, someone once asked me at a show, "what's a 'vizzer'?"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In the example image, I would call the top two broken toplines (the first is worse) and the last one, just....no, ick, there's like *no* topline. Anyway...


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Konotashi said:


> Then you're referring to a break in the topline, not a roach.
> 
> Also, a break in topline is a fault. It's in the very quote I posted above.
> 
> "...sloping back to the slightly sloping croup *without a* visible *break*."


I realize its not a roach and I did say that, I never said it was a roach. I said I feel like they are almost equally bad faults in my opinion, especially when you see many of them in motion and then their back does APPEAR almost roached. Againt doesnt mean it necessarily is. I was also saying that I was assuming that a break in the topline is what the op was complaining about, not an actual roach or the actual slope as ALL german shepherds should have slopes.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I know this thread went off topic, but the op should try Huerta Hof. Germelhaus for the chance at a red bicolor. Huerta Hof: Huerta Hof German Shepherds Germelhaus: =:= Germelhaus German Shepherd Dogs =:= Breeding Top Working Schutzhund GSDs (they are very helpful and quick to reply in contact)


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