# Questionable need for Service Dog for 5 yr old "Autistic"



## Gretchen

There is a family who bought their dog from the same breeder I did that has their dog designated to be a "service dog" (wears the blue vest) for their 5 year old "autistic" son. My words in italics have questionable definitions for me. I thought a service dog was supposed to perform a specific task, I see this dog as an average trained dog which had aggression issues in the past. The 5 year old boy does not appear (during training sessions) to have the qualities I've seen if a few other autistic children, but I could be wrong. He seems to show and acknowledge a variety of emotions and facial expressions, interacts well with other young children, generally seems normal with a high energy level.

I guess I am ranting because I hate to see people abuse things, then what happens is that the legitimate persons end up suffering due to stricter rules and regulations. Maybe this boy has issues at home I have not seen, still I don't understand how this dog could be designated as a service dog without specific training, are there people who do certification when someone self trains their service dog?

Video of boy and dog with trainer - mostly boy hiding and dog searching

Service Dog - YouTube


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## Jax08

Autism has a very wide spectrum from high functioning to not functioning. Why don't you walk right over and ask if the boy is autistic? I imagine you might get told to mind your own business. Who are you to diagnose this child?


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## selzer

I am with Jax. No one wants a label of autism on their kid. ADD maybe, that is a good excuse for poor behavior. Autism is a really negative label on a kid. It is possible that he interacts better because of the dog. Possible. You can train your own service dog, and they do not have to be certified. I think in order to get the dog to school with the boy they will have to jump some serious hoops. I mean if the boy is seriously autistic, then how can you be sure that he can manage the dog, and if he is not, why does he need the dog. There are always hurt feelings and uproar when a school system denies a child from bringing a service dog with them, but I think that the school systems have to do what is best with all the children in mind. A dog with aggression issues would not be a good candidate for going to elementary school with a child-handler.

ETA: my cousin who is about a year or two younger than me was diagnosed with autism when he was about two. He was in special schools and often lived away from home in one school or another. He is currently living in a home for retarded men because he is violent. Autism is nothing you want your kid to have. It is a terrible affliction, disease whatever.


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## AddieGirl

Jax08 said:


> Autism has a very wide spectrum from high functioning to not functioning. Why don't you walk right over and ask if the boy is autistic? I imagine you might get told to mind your own business. Who are you to diagnose this child?




+ 1000000

I worked as a caregiver for 2 boys with autism. They were brothers both under 10 years old. One was "obviously" autistic exhibiting "classic" autistic behaviors. The other was high functioning, and if you only observed him casually for a short period of time you might assume that he was a typically developing child, perhaps with a touch of ADHD. However, they both had their own individual needs, and I can see how each of them could have benefitted from a service dog. My advice is to MYOB and be thankful that you and/or your children don't have to live with Autism (a condition that NO parent would wish to "fake").


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## AbbyK9

A dog is only then a Service Dog if the following requirements are met -

(1) The person the dog works for must be LEGALLY disabled, not just medically disabled. Legally disabled means that they meet the ADA's definition of a disability. The ADA describes a disability as something that SIGNIFICANTLY impairs ONE or MORE major life activities.

(2) The dog must be INDIVIDUALLY TRAINED specific TASKS (three tasks are generally cited as the barebones required minimum). These tasks must be demonstrable (able to be performed on command) and specifically mitigate the person's disability.

So ... what this boils down to is this: 

(1) Is the child considered legally disabled under the ADA?
(2) Is the dog trained specific tasks relevant to the disability?

If so, then the dog is legally considered to be a Service Dog. Ideally, the dog should have a great deal of public access training so that he will behave appropriately in public places where Service Dogs are allowed with their handlers - the dog should also be fine around other people and other dogs, that goes without saying.

There are no certifying agencies for owner/handler trained dogs. 

However, ADI (Assistance Dogs International) makes their public access test available online at Public Access Test - Assistance Dogs International with the caveat that the test should be administered by a professional assistance dog trainer. 

As ADI does not train or provide dogs itself, but rather provides a directory of assistance dog trainers (under Member Programs List & Links), it stands to reason that one could get in contact with a local ADI-accredited trainer and see about taking the ADI public access test under such a trainer's supervision.

One pet peeve ... if a dog has to wear a prong collar in order to be controlled by the handler, then the dog does not have the necessary BASIC obedience needed to set the foundation for Service Dog work. My humble opinion.


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## AbbyK9

Do I think this child is autistic? I don't know.

Do I think a dog that isn't trained specific tasks to help with a disability is a Service Dog? Heck no. Not under the definition of the term. Maybe an Emotional Support Animal (ESA) but they do not have the same rights as Service Dogs. Whole different category.


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## selzer

Are cardiac alert dogs and siezure alert dogs considered service dogs? If they are what is the demonstratable task that they must be able to perform on command?


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## ILGHAUS

From Service Dog Central: (Bolding Mine)

There is a mistaken belief that people with Autism have issues feeling emotions. Autism was once considered a type of mental illness, but it is now recognized as *a sensory processing disorder*. People with Autism Spectrum Disorders may experience difficulty recognizing and processing subtle social cues in facial expression, body language, inflection, and intonation which results in confusion in learning how to recognize and exhibit expressions of emotions, *but not the feelings of those emotions.*

Other sensory processing disorders include blindness (vision processing) and deafness (auditory processing). Service dogs can be trained for some people with Autism to help them gain independence, confidence, and the ability to perform activities of daily living that they could not otherwise perform. For the most part these dogs are *trained to perform tasks similar to those of service dogs for other sensory processing disabilities.* A guide dog for a person who is blind signals the handler when the team approaches an intersection so that the handler knows to stop and check for traffic. An Autism dog might be trained to do the exact same task, except that *instead of giving visual information ("I see an intersection"), the dog gives prioritizing information ("I recognize a situation that requires focused processing")*.

An Autism service dog might signal the handler of important sounds, like that of a smoke alarm. When a person is trying to process 20 different things, including the sounds of crickets, a smoke alarm, the smell of the fabric softener on the sheets, the feel of the fabric on his or her skin, and so on, it may take that person a while to get down the list to the really important information: the smoke alarm. *Those without processing impairments automatically recognize the urgency of the smoke alarm, but many with Autism cannot do so without careful consideration.* They certainly know what it means and that it is urgent, but they must think it through step-by-step to arrive at the conclusion that a speedy exit is required. As with a person who is deaf, a trained service dog can signal the person with Autism of an important event, such as a smoke alarm, the phone ringing, someone at the door, the alarm clock, the kitchen timer, the baby crying, etc. *The dog's signal to the handler reminds the handler to drop all other processing and focus on the sound being indicated by the dog.*

To read this article in full go to Autism Service Dogs | Service Dog Central

_I have permission from the owner of Service Dog Central to copy as much of the articles from the site as I wish for educational purposes. I believe the above is some of the best info that I have read on the topic and am grateful that I am allowed to share. For others wishing to quote any sections of this material please remember to follow the rules of copyright law. Violators will be prosecuted in order to protect the intellectual property of SDC._


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## Samba

Someone else can answer this better than me.

I do know of several owner trained service dogs. They do not have outside certification.


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## ILGHAUS

selzer said:


> Are cardiac alert dogs and siezure alert dogs considered service dogs? If they are what is the demonstratable task that they must be able to perform on command?


Most people in the service dog community do not break down the *type* of dog into such small subsections. The above dogs are not service dogs because of their natural alerting skills but because of the trained response tasks that they do after an alert.

These tasks must be able to be demonstrated on command and they must be necessary tasks trained based on the needs of the handler to mitigate their legal disability.

The alert & response SDs that I know also have other tasks besides those of how they respond after an alert. Such as someone who has major cardiac problems - most are unable to bend over to retrieve a dropped item and many if not most have problems with their mobility.

Remember, a medical condition or medical disability does not always equal a legal disability under the ADA/Dept. of Justice which is needed as part of the equation of a dog being lawfully a SD.


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## AbbyK9

> The above dogs are not service dogs because of their natural alerting skills but because of the trained response tasks that they do after an alert.


This.

A dog that naturally alerts to a medical condition or has been trained to alert to a medical condition would also be required to do other tasks, on command, for its handler - such as fetching medication or calling 911 on a special phone.


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## Gretchen

Thanks for the info about service dogs. I know some of you think I should mind my own business but I just hate to see abuse. Wouldn't we all want our dogs to be service dogs and take them anywhere? My husband's adult niece says her Ridgeback is a service dog so she can avoid quarantines when she travels with it into and out of the U.S. She lies.

As far as autism, I would be surprised a parent would label their child with it it they were not, but you never know. Having a child with another type of disability, we would never mention her disability unless we had to (she hated it). My neighbor's 14 yr old has autism and there were a few autistic kids in my daughter's special ed classes. The boy I'm referring to did not display in my contact with him, the behaviors I noticed in the other children.


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## ILGHAUS

> I just hate to see abuse.


You are part of a large group of us and that dislike often leads to working with advocacy education for many of us.




> Wouldn't we all want our dogs to be service dogs and take them anywhere?


NO... not me or the handlers that I know. I think of this often when people say how lucky SD owners are in that they can take their dog with them all of the time.

Stop and think. Want to run down to the store for some milk. First make sure the dog is clean, if not then a quick wipe down and brushing. Check their tack. Maybe put a harness on the dog, load the dog into the car and buckle to their safety harness. With some dogs this requires removing some of their equipment. Get to the store and find a safe place with enough area to unload the dog. Undo the dog from their seat belt, possibly put equipment back on and then go into the store. Maybe have a customer make rude remarks, be questioned by a store employee, get your milk and then head back to the car to go through the whole process of loading and securing your dog. 

Now think how much work it is to go off for a major trip. I liken it to taking an infant or toddler off for the day or going overnight somewhere. Food, drink, clean up supplies, toys, grooming supplies ...

My handler friends also have to be very aware of the weather. Rain - better take a small towel to dry off muddy feet before going into a building. Very hot - do they need to take booties for their dog to walk over large expanses of hot cement or other surfaces. 

Going to a meeting. Estimate how long it will last. Running late - is it better to potty the dog before going inside and be even later or going in somewhat late and then possibly have to leave during a critical point because the dog needs go outside?


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## GermanShepherds6800

8 out of 10 people using service dogs in the usa these days seem to be frauds. I have seen some out in the dog world claiming as service dog and I seriously doubt they are legit. It is a horrible thing to do in my opinion. I wish there was a procedure to qualify your needs and your service dog. I have trained dogs for service tasks for people that truly need them as well as have been approached by people who do not and I have refused them. I have also traveled to a show or two and peeked into some that are questionable in using them and formed my own opinions about the fraudulent use as well as heard people brag about using vests to get free air flight or just to be able to take their dogs in public. Unless their dog commits a horrible offense there really is nothing you can do about it. I have to chalk it up to when they get final judgment it will bite them in the butt. 

I have serious doubts that a five year old child can be responsible properly for a service dog in public at all times and that is an issue that can be broached as the parent is responsible for the animal.


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## selzer

I would not want the benefits of having a service dog if I also had to have the disability that requires a service dog. Like handicapped parking spaces, want to park right outside the front door? Would you give your left leg for it? Do people abuse things? Yes. And maybe, what goes around, might come around for them too. Who knows. I am happy that I can leave my dog at home.


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## Jax08

Did anyone think that the service dog might be to find an autistic child that has wandered off? I just need to stay off this thread. I"m so put off by having a video of a child posted without the parents knowledge and consent in order to argue that child's disability that I just can't get past that.


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## selzer

Jax08 said:


> Did anyone think that the service dog might be to find an autistic child that has wandered off? I just need to stay off this thread. I"m so put off by having a video of a child posted without the parents knowledge and consent in order to argue that child's disability that I just can't get past that.


I did not even think of that. The vid did not work for me, but you're right. We would even get plenty of guff sitting here critiquing a dog that was posted without the owner's knowledge or consent.


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## bocron

selzer said:


> Are cardiac alert dogs and siezure alert dogs considered service dogs? If they are what is the demonstratable task that they must be able to perform on command?



I worked in the local public elementary school for a number of years as the clinic attendant. Our school had multiple children along the autism spectrum, we also had half a dozen insulin dependent diabetics, one with a severe heart issue and a few with seizure disorders. One of the diabetics and one of the boys with a seizure disorder had service dogs. IMHO the task they performed on command was to alert to a low blood sugar for the diabetic or alert to an impending seizure. As long as they were wearing their vests, they were "on". So as far as I'm concerned they were performing on command since they were alert to their charges all day long. When they got home from school, the vests came off and they got to play and just be (at least the diabetic alert dog, I never really got to see the other dog in his home situation). At bedtime, the vest went back on, and while the dog did go to sleep, he was still alert to the child and had woken the parents to alert them to a low on numerous occasions. 
So I absolutely consider those dogs service dogs. If you have ever been in charge of a diabetic, you realize how serious a real low can be, especially for a small child. I wished every child in our school had one, it would have made my day so much less stressful .


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## GermanShepherds6800

He preforms the exercise with normal range cognitive reasoning and following of direction. In my opinion he has the normal possibility of getting lost as any other child if not more because his mom will be handling a dog thus further being distracted to that rather than just keeping her attention on the child. It would be better for her to watch the child instead of plan how to send a dog for him and accept a free device given out regularly for Alzheimer and other risk people that wander off. These are monitored and work quickly by law enforcement.


My friend uses a service dog for her diabetes full time and he takes his job seriously but she even had to train him the other required tasks that the law requires so that he is a qualified service dog. She did not drive for almost three years until she started using the dog. It is a pain sometimes for her and she is very uncomfortable at times using the dog and as much as she does with her dogs and loves them she would give anything not to have to do this and still does not go into public much because of the problems and reactions of a service dog.

I am not against service dogs but in this child's case He would not be able to control the dog and the mother should concentrate on him not split between him and a dog in my opinion.


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## idahospud49

Ohhh autism, something extremely close to me. I have 8 younger siblings who are all on the Autism Spectrum. The spectrum includes Autism, Aspergers Syndrom, Rett's Syndrome, ADD, ADHD, Childhood Disintegrative Disorder, and PDD-NOS (Pervasive Developmental Disorders Not Otherwise Specified). Well ADD and ADHD depend on who you talk to, some people include it on the spectrum some do not. Anyways, my siblings range from ADHD to several who have Aspergers, with varying degrees of such. If you were to meet them and were unexperienced with the spectrum you would most likely pick out the one who is severely Aspergers, but the rest you would not know. 

From watching less than a minute of the video I would say that yes that kid is most definitely on the spectrum. What his actual diagnosis is, I would have to see more to give you my guess. Animals are excellent for kids on the spectrum, or anyone on the spectrum really. They have a harder time relating to people, they don't follow social cues, etc. An animal allows them to have a connection that they do not always develop with people. 

To put in my little bit of a catty remark, I do not see why you would be questioning the right of someone to have a Service Dog.


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## ILGHAUS

> I"m so put off by having a video of a child posted without the parents knowledge and consent in order to argue that child's disability that I just can't get past that


Guess I am looking at it differently. The video was posted on YouTube and often links are posted for people to look at. I don't see where we were arguing about the child's disability as only one person posted where they questioned the need or if the child was in reality disabled. On that, none of us have the ability or the authority to decide the legality of a SD and at most could only offer our general opinion if we so chose to do so. I don't think anyone other then the OP even gave an opinion on this particular child and dog. The rest of the thread has been on SDs in general and SDs used by handlers on the spectrum. It then went more off topic as threads tend to do by following a natural flow of ideas and opinions. 

In fact, I just now went and watched the video. I see a nice looking GSD being trained to locate a child on command. It looked like the dog and the children were treating it like a fun game between equals. I don't believe that there was any mention of the child taking the dog to school or elsewhere out into the general public. I heard about family camping and children wondering off. 

I've seen videos where the dog was trained to track and block/restrain the child which I don't agree with. This video showed a dog that trailed and stopped short of the child allowing the parent to take over command of the situation. So as to the video itself, I think any parent of a small child might want to train their pet dog to track on command. I did tracking (on leash) training with one of my dogs with neighborhood children and used the same concept. All a big game to the participants.


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## Lin

selzer said:


> Are cardiac alert dogs and siezure alert dogs considered service dogs? If they are what is the demonstratable task that they must be able to perform on command?


Already been said, but if they only performed alerts then no they would not be service dogs. But the service dogs that perform alerts, perform additional tasks as well. The reason is the difference between a trained task, and a bonus behavior. To be classified as a service dog the dog must perform TRAINED tasks, and they need to be able to be performed on command. For example if you're in front of a judge trying to prove that your dog is in fact a service dog, you can't just hope you happen to have a seizure while in the court room. If tasks did not have to be trained and performed on command, anyone could claim their dog alerted to seizures. 

Another reason for this is to prevent people from making things up or calling behaviors that a dog naturally has as a service task. For example, a person with a mental illness cannot claim their dog as a service dog just because it makes them feel better. That is not a task, and that cannot be performed on command. This is a definite plus of a service dog or pet, but is not a task. Neither is affection from a dog. However licking the face in response to having recognized a specific behavior in the person would be a trained task and demonstrable. 

Seizure alert cannot be trained because its not known exactly what the dog is alerting to. Currently, a dog either can do it or not. Of placed seizure response dogs, approx 50% develop alerting. So, again, these dogs are not service dogs because of the alerting but because of the other tasks they perform in addition. 



ILGHAUS said:


> NO... not me or the handlers that I know. I think of this often when people say how lucky SD owners are in that they can take their dog with them all of the time.
> 
> Stop and think. Want to run down to the store for some milk. First make sure the dog is clean, if not then a quick wipe down and brushing. Check their tack. Maybe put a harness on the dog, load the dog into the car and buckle to their safety harness. With some dogs this requires removing some of their equipment. Get to the store and find a safe place with enough area to unload the dog. Undo the dog from their seat belt, possibly put equipment back on and then go into the store. Maybe have a customer make rude remarks, be questioned by a store employee, get your milk and then head back to the car to go through the whole process of loading and securing your dog.
> 
> Now think how much work it is to go off for a major trip. I liken it to taking an infant or toddler off for the day or going overnight somewhere. Food, drink, clean up supplies, toys, grooming supplies ...
> 
> My handler friends also have to be very aware of the weather. Rain - better take a small towel to dry off muddy feet before going into a building. Very hot - do they need to take booties for their dog to walk over large expanses of hot cement or other surfaces.
> 
> Going to a meeting. Estimate how long it will last. Running late - is it better to potty the dog before going inside and be even later or going in somewhat late and then possibly have to leave during a critical point because the dog needs go outside?


GREAT reminder! I've had a friend make a comment about how I "get to take Tessa everywhere" once. I looked at him funnily and said but that's work! 

If I'm preparing for a date, I don't have to just shower an lay out clothes for myself. i also have to make sure Tessa has been bathed recently, or bring her into the shower with me. And if i do that, I have to dry her afterward. Make sure her nails are short enough to not clack on floors. Brush out extra fur so she doesn't shed inside businesses. Harness her up. 

Say I'm going to a movie, when we walk inside the theatre I do a quick scan of the entire room and determine the best place to sit and its not just about a great view of the film, but where Tessa will not be in the way of other patrons. 

Sometimes I have to deal with people approaching me when I'd rather get in and out, or people asking to pet and then giving me dirty looks or being insulted when I say no (despite her clearly displaying 'WORKING, DO NOT PET' patches.) Sometimes I have to deal with people petting without asking, and the result of Tessa snapping out of work mode. If I don't have to deal with any of that, I'll probably still be either stared at or have to hear comments said about me behind my back. 



selzer said:


> I would not want the benefits of having a service dog if I also had to have the disability that requires a service dog. Like handicapped parking spaces, want to park right outside the front door? Would you give your left leg for it? Do people abuse things? Yes. And maybe, what goes around, might come around for them too. Who knows. I am happy that I can leave my dog at home.


Another great post  Once a friend (different one than referenced above) said that I was 'lucky' to have a disabled parking permit. I replied back that if she wanted I would gladly trade her my disability and parking permit.



bocron said:


> IMHO the task they performed on command was to alert to a low blood sugar for the diabetic or alert to an impending seizure. As long as they were wearing their vests, they were "on". So as far as I'm concerned they were performing on command since they were alert to their charges all day long. When they got home from school, the vests came off and they got to play and just be (at least the diabetic alert dog, I never really got to see the other dog in his home situation). At bedtime, the vest went back on, and while the dog did go to sleep, he was still alert to the child and had woken the parents to alert them to a low on numerous occasions.
> So I absolutely consider those dogs service dogs. If you have ever been in charge of a diabetic, you realize how serious a real low can be, especially for a small child. I wished every child in our school had one, it would have made my day so much less stressful .


As already said, alerting is not a task itself. And as far as diabetic alert, there is a lot of controversy currently. Much of this is due to the failure of anyone with a so called diabetic alert dog willing to allow the dog to be tested or observed for study. 

For diabetes as well as seizures the dogs can still be service dogs due to tasks they perform. Such as reminder to take medication at a specific time, fetching a sugary drink if the person is unable to get up, or fetching the glucose monitor. 

Dogs are still dogs, and are fallible. They also ARE very much like a toddler as ILGHAUS mentioned. With something as serious as diabetes, the care is primarily in the hands of the individual or their caretaker and not the dog. Its not a replacement for regular glucose monitoring etc.



GermanShepherds6800 said:


> In my opinion he has the normal possibility of getting lost as any other child if not more because his mom will be handling a dog thus further being distracted to that rather than just keeping her attention on the child. *It would be better for her to watch the child instead of plan how to send a dog for him *and accept a free device given out regularly for Alzheimer and other risk people that wander off. These are monitored and work quickly by law enforcement.


Bolding mine, and I very much agree. A service dog's purpose is to gain independence. Children do not need independence. And so the dog is not actually for the child in most cases, but for the parents. And in that case it makes no sense to put a dog into the situation and add MORE work for the parent who is already having to deal with a disabled child. 

A child cannot be completely responsible for a service dog, and so in public the parent is having to be responsible for both dog and child. And again, thats a big responsibility and an added toddler! At school, if an autistic child brings the dog someone has to be appointed to be responsible for the care of the dog. Thats just adding the dog into the middle, and it would make more sense to just have an adult be responsible as the childs aid without the dog. 

Now there IS a big plus with the emotional support a dog provides that a human can not take the place of. But thats not a service task, and doesn't qualify the dog to be out in public where pets are not allowed. So my personal belief is those parents should seek a pet or emotional support animal. 

There are some cases that have swayed my opinion about a child having a service dog. Such as the boy with seizures, and he has a vasovagal implant. The dog has a magnet in his collar, and upon a seizure holds the magnet over the implant which can then stop or shorten the seizure. With that sort of scenerio, the dogs immediate response (key is response here, its the dogs response that is the task) cannot be exactly replaced by a service human. 

Also. It IS possible for a parent to fake an illness in their child, its even possible for one to induce it (munchausens by proxy) but its very rare. Autism is on a spectrum, and when you see the child they may also be at their very best, as opposed to at their very worst and a danger to themselves. 



ILGHAUS said:


> From Service Dog Central: (Bolding Mine)
> 
> There is a mistaken belief that people with Autism have issues feeling emotions. Autism was once considered a type of mental illness, but it is now recognized as *a sensory processing disorder*. People with Autism Spectrum Disorders may experience difficulty recognizing and processing subtle social cues in facial expression, body language, inflection, and intonation which results in confusion in learning how to recognize and exhibit expressions of emotions, *but not the feelings of those emotions.*


I'm glad this was said. I'm on the autism spectrum, with high functioning Aspergers. One of the most obvious symptoms in me though is whats called a flat affect, or the lack of expressed emotion in the face. I was kind of shocked when a friend of mine who also has Aspergers assumed that I wasn't feeling emotion due to it not being expressed in my face. 

Over the years, I've taught myself how to express in my face. But since its conscious and not automatic, if I am tired or stressed its too much for me to do. Also if I am concentrating I won't be able to think about it and express, I've had people say I look angry or whatnot. 

Some with aspergers DO have difficulty feeling empathy. It results from having difficulty being able to relate socially, and so difficulty in relating to the emotions someone else is experiencing. But its not as severe as previously thought, with claims that the autistic didn't have the ability to feel empathy. In contrast to my lack of expressed emotions, I feel empathy quite strongly. However my friend with AS does not. He's said bluntly that if it doesn't affect him, he doesn't care. This was in response to asking me if I had feelings about Japan's tragedy. He does not pay a lot of attention to world news, because it doesn't affect him personally. I don't, because it affects me deeply and so I avoid rather than allow it to depress me. However I know he cares very deeply for his friends and family, and I am sure he feels empathy if one of them is hurting.


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## GermanShepherds6800

During my run this morning, I had another thought on this training. Is the child is being taught this training "game" is this really a good thing? Will he understand not to run off in real to play the game without being cued to do it like in training?


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## kiwilrdg

> To put in my little bit of a catty remark, I do not see why you would be questioning the right of someone to have a Service Dog.


I didn't think the OP was questioning the right of the child to have a service dog. The post seemed like it was questioning the status as service dog for a dog of marginal training and aggression issues.


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## msvette2u

Wait a minute...did the parents give consent to you to post a video of _their child_ online!???


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## GermanShepherds6800

did the op post a link to the video parents posted or did she shoot and load the video?

If she posted the link the parent uploaded, then I cannot see anything wrong with doing that. If they knew she took the video and posted it perhaps? I would not like anyone taking and posting of a child if it were mine without my knowledge. There are many ways this could have went.


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## GSDGunner

msvette2u said:


> Wait a minute...did the parents give consent to you to* post a video of their child online!*???


They already did that on their own. Once they decided to post it on youtube, it became a public video. No consent is needed to share it. If they didn't want the public to see the video, they could have made it private.


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## msvette2u

I got to looking again and I think the breeder posted it online...?? 
Either way the OP was questioning the child's disability and/or the need for a service dog at all.

I'd like to add to those who said it's really presumptive to say the child doesn't "appear" disabled. As the mother of a child with "invisible disabilities", it's very sad when people believe just because a child "seems" normal, they are. You'd never criticize someone in a wheelchair missing both legs but invisible disabilities cannot be seen easily yet are of no less consequence than missing both legs or other appendages. 

Invisible Disabilities Association ? Encouraging, Educating and Connecting


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## GSDElsa

I'm not commenting on this issue, but there are absolutely parents out there that would call their kids autistic for attention or any other reason.


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## msvette2u

Wow. Just...wow...!! Because yes, it's so nice to have an autistic child!?? 

And FYI - if somehow people are indeed Munchausen's by Proxy, you actually do need a diagnosis to give the school to get help from them, and any other assistance that may be available to people with children with Autism.


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## WarrantsWifey

Jax08 said:


> *Autism has a very wide spectrum from high functioning to not functioning. *


:thumbup:
You never know unless your the diagnosing doctor. No offense to the OP.


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## selzer

I think that if a person is more comfortable knowing that the dog is able to alert to a cardiac condition, a seizure, or a diabetic condition, that should be enough to consider them a service dog. I think that the bonus would be the training that the dog stay right next to the seizing person, fetches a sugary drink, dials 9-1-1 on a phone. I would think that would differ for whoever owned the dog, and the particular disabilities. A seizure sufferer should not have to demonstrate how the dog lies by their side while they are seizing, any more than demonstrating the ability to alert to a seizure, as both discloses their issue. 

Children are different. Children to not have the same reasoning as adults. They often do not consider long-term consequences of their actions. Should a child with seizures, autism, diabeties, a heart condition be allowed to have their dog in public schools? I don't know. I think where the dog is able to recognize symptoms prior to humans, even in time to prevent a worse situation, I think that the schools should do everything in their power for that dog to be accompanying that child. If that means assigning an individual to manage the dog, trained to recognize the dog's alerting, and what to do when that happens, so be it. This person can be a classroom helper so long as they stay in the vacinity of the child/dog within reason. 

If what the dog provides to the child can be managed by people, ie. the dog picks up a dropped pencil, I think that the school should have more leeway on whether allowing a service dog, or a dedicated classroom helper who can be available to help with the child if necessary. In the remaining 18 hours per day, they can use their service dog to do these things for them. 

Mental/emotional reasons for service dogs may be just as valid as physical reasons. But I think that the safety of other children needs to be considered. If it is demonstrated that the dog has good character and the child can manage the dog, then the school district should determine whether the teacher can handle the situation or if there should be some type of assistant to deal with the special needs.


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## GSDElsa

msvette2u said:


> Wow. Just...wow...!! Because yes, it's so nice to have an autistic child!??
> 
> And FYI - if somehow people are indeed Munchausen's by Proxy, you actually do need a diagnosis to give the school to get help from them, and any other assistance that may be available to people with children with Autism.


Really, people need excuses for their bad parenting. It's not nice at all, but I'm highly surprised people fit it unbelievable that someone would exaggerate something like a child's hyperactivity into autism.


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## GSDElsa

I'm actually most concerned with this video that the breeder in some way acting as if having a GSD is a substiute for an organized search by professionals. If a child goes missing in the woods on a camping trip, the parents should NOT be sending their personal dog out to find them!

I don't like what the breeder is saying around the 1:28-2:00 mark.


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## nitemares

my son is on the spectrum i don't go around parading my sons autism or hide it if someone asks. Autism is not something a parent would want for their children, even if it is high functioning like my son.

now back to topic
Research has proven that just having a dog around children with autism help a great deal. now from what i understand, there are two types of dogs for children with autism. one, a full service dogs that has tasks, like finding a runaway child, calming tantrums, etc. the other are just emotional support dogs, just being there helps. 
I wish i could get a certified dog for my son, but such things are not available in my country. so i'll be happy to just have a dog. my son has drastically changed by just having a cat around (he was too young when my GSD died), he loves to cuddle, if the cat let him and it certainly made him less sensitive to a lot of sensory issues he's had. he has even become more social. 
hopefully our next GSD will also help him in so many ways. with dogs there's more interactions than with a cat. giving commands to dog will boost my sons confidence.




GSDElsa said:


> Really, people need excuses for their bad parenting. It's not nice at all, but I'm highly surprised people fit it unbelievable that someone would exaggerate something like a child's hyperactivity into autism.


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## msvette2u

GSDElsa said:


> Really, people need excuses for their bad parenting. It's not nice at all, but I'm highly surprised people fit it unbelievable that someone would exaggerate something like a child's hyperactivity into autism.



Are you a parent? 
If so, does your child have disabilities? 
I'm suspecting you're not, because you'd never say such things were you a parent...and especially one with a disability. 

For people to second guess this child's diagnosis based on a video is ludicrous, but to insinuate parents just make up diagnoses for their kids to "get attention" is...beyond ludicrous...!


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## WarrantsWifey

msvette2u said:


> Are you a parent?
> If so, does your child have disabilities?
> I'm suspecting you're not, because you'd never say such things were you a parent...and especially one with a disability.
> 
> For people to second guess this child's diagnosis based on a video is ludicrous, but to insinuate parents just make up diagnoses for their kids to "get attention" is...beyond ludicrous...!



I personally think you need to re-read her post. Instead of "fit" put FIND in there.

She wasn't attacking or making snide comments about anything. At first I read it wrong, had to re-read twice to understand it.


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## msvette2u

nitemares said:


> my son is on the spectrum i don't go around parading my sons autism or hide it if someone asks. Autism is not something a parent would want for their children, even if it is high functioning like my son.


This is really putting it mildly...which is why I'm almost laughing it's being brought up in this context but also just SMH because it's so ludicrous to even suggest such a thing. 
If parents suffer from "bad parenting" you can bet they aren't sitting around just making up dx's for their kids...!!!
There's a lot more to disabilities than "bad parenting". Maybe try meeting a parent with _one _child on the spectrum and 2-3 other "normal" kids, and you'd understand it's not "bad parenting"


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## GSDElsa

msvette2u said:


> Are you a parent?
> If so, does your child have disabilities?
> I'm suspecting you're not, because you'd never say such things were you a parent...and especially one with a disability.
> 
> For people to second guess this child's diagnosis based on a video is ludicrous, but to insinuate parents just make up diagnoses for their kids to "get attention" is...beyond ludicrous...!


Well, first of all, where did you get that I was "second guessing" THIS child's diagnosis?

What I think it ludicrous is for someone to think that there are not parents out there that would do exactly that, however.

The comment was the "no parent would" make up a child's diagnosis of autism. Absolutely there are. 

Just because normal, well-balanced people find it absurd and distrubing that someone would do that does not mean there are not people out there that would.


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## nitemares

yes Justine after re-reading your post i realized that this is what you meant. sorry for misunderstanding, English is not my mother tongue.


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## msvette2u

There are a lot of people on here second-guessing this child's diagnosis. The title of the thread has the word "autistic" in quotes, and the OP said they felt the diagnosis is "questionable". 

I will give you that perhaps some mentally off-balanced people may make stuff up (about lots of things, their kids included) but to say "parents will make things up" as a generalization is wrong as well. 




GSDElsa said:


> Well, first of all, where did you get that I was "second guessing" THIS child's diagnosis?
> 
> What I think it ludicrous is for someone to think that there are not parents out there that would do exactly that, however.
> 
> The comment was the "no parent would" make up a child's diagnosis of autism. Absolutely there are.
> 
> Just because normal, well-balanced people find it absurd and distrubing that someone would do that does not mean there are not people out there that would.


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## selzer

Other than the original post, I do not see many people questioning the diagnosis at all.


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## AbbyK9

> There are a lot of people on here second-guessing this child's diagnosis. The title of the thread has the word "autistic" in quotes, and the OP said they felt the diagnosis is "questionable".


I hope I am not one of the ones you feel are second-guessing the diagnosis.

I read the original post as the OP being honestly concerned that this family may be passing off a dog that is not a Service Dog as a Service Dog - which is a concern that I share, not necessarily in this case in particular but in general, as I've come across many fakers who just "want to bring their dog".

I tried to give more information on what makes a Service Dog (being trained specific, demonstrable tasks that mitigate the person's disability) and the requirements to have one (being considered legally disabled under the ADA).

I don't think it's so much about saying that people with invisible disabilities don't need or deserve Service Dogs, but their disability still needs to qualify as a legal disability in order to have a Service Dog.


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## Hillary_Plog

One pet peeve ... if a dog has to wear a prong collar in order to be controlled by the handler said:


> There are a variety of disabilities that lesson a persons ability to use/control their muscles/limbs/bodies where, if, the dog (and even if they are service dogs they are still DOGS and are opportunistic) decided that they wanted to forge ahead to greet someone or sniff something, etc., the pinch collar is an effective way for someone that needs an aid in controlling the dog.
> 
> I have several clients (I train service dogs) that are low level quadriplegics who have limited dexterity and function in their arms/hands. The pinch collar is a very useful tool, and much appreciated, if they ever need to (in a rare situation) give a correction or gain control of their dog.
> 
> These are dogs that have had over 2 years of formal service dog training and are better trained and behaved than most children I know...so, having a pinch collar on a service dog is in no way indicative of bad/no training.


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## GSDElsa

AddieGirl said:


> + 1000000
> ...children don't have to live with Autism (a condition that NO parent would wish to "fake").


Someone made this comment. There are people out there that would "fake" autism in their child (or any other number of things).

My comment was nothing more or nothing less than that. I do not assume this woman or any other parent is or is not exaggerating her child's condition based on that or a video. Merely stating there are people out there that would and do.


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## selzer

I think ADD and ADHD were being diagnosed almost like a fad for a while there. Everyone I met had an ADD kid. And they did use it to excuse bad behavior. Schools liked the diagnoses because kids who had "special needs" brought more money from the government to the school. They would suggest which doctors to take the kid to. The diagnosis also usually came with prescriptions that made the kids easier to manage.

ADD is a serious disease too, and if a kid really has it, he can learn much better with the meds. Unfortunately, I think it has been over-diagnosed, and kids taking meds that do not have the problem, can have more trouble actually learning.

I do not know that people are running out trying to get an autism diagnosis on their kid in droves. While ADD or ADHD usually has the perception of a bratty kid, Autism unfortunately has the perception of retardation. And usually people do not want to wave a flag with my kid is retarded on it. 

There are kooks everywhere, but Autism is not one that even kooks try to manufacture.


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## GSDElsa

I'm not just talking about autism in particular but serious "problems" in general. I mean, just look at the number of people faking needing a service dog. I would gather based on stories I've hear that the majority of these people are faking needing a service dog for a mental disability............


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## AbbyK9

> These are dogs that have had over 2 years of formal service dog training and are better trained and behaved than most children I know...so, having a pinch collar on a service dog is in no way indicative of bad/no training.


But you are only using the prong collars on clients' dogs where the clients have limited strength or dexterity, correct?

The majority of "service" dogs I see - and that's in quotations because I doubt that most of them are actually service dogs - that are on prong collars lack basic obedience skills and their handlers do not have any strength issues, as is often both proven by the fact that their dogs still forge and pull with the prong on while out in public with these people.


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## msvette2u

> And usually people do not want to wave a flag with my kid is retarded on it.


Exactly...ADD/ADHD, while maybe overdiagnosed, is still a medical condition and a doctor does have to dx it.

As for the other - people "faking" an illness (???) to have a service dog - the problem is, you don't have to list your illness, so I don't see a bunch of people sitting around saying "I'm THIS" or "I'm THAT" to take their dog places. 
They simply buy a vest and put it on the dog. 

I saw this type thing numerous times on a recent trip to California and was appalled momentarily, but then again, I'm not going to sit around and suppose they don't have an illness or mental condition, because as wrong as it is to do the fake service dog thing, it's more wrong to claim they don't have anything wrong when they may in fact, do.


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## AbbyK9

> I saw this type thing numerous times on a recent trip to California and was appalled momentarily, but then again, I'm not going to sit around and suppose they don't have an illness or mental condition, because as wrong as it is to do the fake service dog thing, it's more wrong to claim they don't have anything wrong when they may in fact, do.


I wish more stores and places of business were aware of the fact that they may, in fact, ask a person if the dog is a Service Dog *and* what the dog does for them. That would help weed out some of them fakers.

I've had people tell me they know this "great trick" for bringing their dogs places - just tell them the dog is a Service Dog. Really. They told me that right to my face. I proceeded to tell them that it's highly illegal and hurts REAL disabled people with REAL Service Dogs ... but I doubt it fell on anything but deaf ears.


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## GermanShepherds6800

> I wish more stores and places of business were aware of the fact that they may, in fact, ask a person if the dog is a Service Dog *and* what the dog does for them. That would help weed out some of them fakers.
> 
> I've had people tell me they know this "great trick" for bringing their dogs places - just tell them the dog is a Service Dog. Really. They told me that right to my face. I proceeded to tell them that it's highly illegal and hurts REAL disabled people with REAL Service Dogs ... but I doubt it fell on anything but deaf ears.



I could not agree more. My friend has faced some bad people with bad comments but she even told me it is worth it to educate the people. Her dog wears his vest and her diabetes is not a visible disability so people have been rude to her, but she bites her tongue and educates them. I can tell it hurts her and makes her feel attacked each time though. She also greatly wishes a registry that is goverment run to liscense the service dogs so that if people see the tag they know it is a legit dog and then she would not have to go through this each time. She also wants businesses required to hold a class on teaching employees about service dogs.


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## AbbyK9

> She also greatly wishes a registry that is goverment run to liscense the service dogs so that if people see the tag they know it is a legit dog and then she would not have to go through this each time.


The really sad part is ... there are many "companies" that sell Service Dog tags and ID cards for a fee. All you have to do is check the box on their website that says, "I swear my dog is a real service dog", pay your fee, and you get a tag.

I've seen a lot of fakers with those tags, including ones who were showing off their "service dogs" on TV or in the local print media. And the sad thing is, every time someone with a fake Service Dog tag goes into a store, it makes employees so much more likely to question the next REAL Service Dog because it doesn't have a tag like that.


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## GermanShepherds6800

she refuses to support one of those companies and gives each person she speaks to the info that they are not regulated and that those are fake. She hates they make money off doing that.

I went back and listened to the sound on the video. I find it is being used to try sell puppies only which I found distasteful because the dog clearly is not even tracking. They are not showing the dog much but you can catch glimpse of dog watching where they run here and there and the dog clearly is making zero effort to "scent". Fraudulent offers from this person on the video claiming to be training this dog to track the lost children and trying to use this to sell more of his dogs. He states he helps his customer train their dogs to be service dogs and tracking and he clearly does not even have a clue. I also want to point out the dog in the video clearly lacks obedience training and cant imagine how it acts in public pulling the woman like that and her failing to handle the dog with even a prong. I see an excuse to call the dog a service dog and he truly does not seem to have any real service dog type behavior displayed in the video as I see it.


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## Lyz

I find it hard to believe that any parent would lye about a child with autism, irregardless of the reason. It's just such a severe thing to tout around - and I don't mean this offensively - but most parents are grateful to not have a child with any sort of disorder, handicap, or condition. To say your own child has it to bring your dog in public would be one of the higher ends of excuses I've heard for such, and thus, not likely.

There are people that turn pets into service dogs or put vests on dogs and start calling them services dogs just because "they can" and that the laws aren't clear, or leave a lot of room for such things - but this does not seem like that situation by a long shot. 

That said, I do question the legitimacy of many service dogs. 
This is not one of them.


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## Lin

Parents lie about their children having disabilities as both a way to excuse misbehavior, and as a way to attract attention. No, it is not an enjoyable thing to be disabled or have a disabled child. However these people are getting the attention and sympathy from others WITHOUT truly having a disabled child, and so yes it is pleasurable for them. The fact that its very hard to care for a disabled individual doesn't matter when its a lie. 

I use a prong on Tessa. I don't need it, but its a sort of emergency brake so to speak. I've worked her in her rolled leather collar as well. But typically I work her on her prong in case there was ever an emergency. Before service dog training, there was an incident where she pulled me clear off my feet and dragged me about 6 feet before stopping. Though with her training I highly doubt she would ever do such a thing again, if something DID happen I would be in much more danger and easier to pull over today. I also like that if necessary, you can give a much subtler correction with the prong. So if Tessa forgets her manners and goes to try and sniff food in a grocery store, i can give her such a subtle correction its not noticeable. For anyone with horse experience, I use the prong like a curb vs a snaffle. Its not about my dog not being trained, but about fine and subtle control of my trained dog. Even fully trained service dogs are not infallible. Training goes on for the lifetime of the dog, otherwise its all to easy to let bad habits develop.


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## Hillary_Plog

AbbyK9 said:


> But you are only using the prong collars on clients' dogs where the clients have limited strength or dexterity, correct?
> 
> The majority of "service" dogs I see - and that's in quotations because I doubt that most of them are actually service dogs - that are on prong collars lack basic obedience skills and their handlers do not have any strength issues, as is often both proven by the fact that their dogs still forge and pull with the prong on while out in public with these people.


The majority of the service dogs produced out of the organizations I've worked for have been mobility dogs, so that innately implies that, yes, the individuals with disabilities have limited function of some part of their body...

BUT, I have also assisted in the training of a dog for a woman with a visual disability (legally blind, but still sees well enough to recognize a face or somebody's body type) who did not need a true guide dog, but rather a dog that did some of the same tasks (stopping at crosswalks, obstacles in a store, etc.). She is in her 60's and does not have a disability other than her vision....she uses a prong. 

Are you now implying that if you were to see her in a store getting groceries, that you would be under the assumption that she is "faking" or that her dog is "poorly trained" or "lacking basic obedience"??? Her dog went under the same RIGOROUS certification process through our organization as every other dog.

Look...let's for a moment, take a step back and realize that there are two "bodies" producing service dogs currently: an organization or business that trains dogs through a designed curriculum; and owner/trainers who are training their own dogs. Whether you are seeing a dog on the street that came from an organization or is owner trained, every body/every trainer likes to use and has a preference for the various tack used for the dog/dogs they train (in fact, I'm sure every person on this board has a preference for one training device or another). 

For instance, I know of an organization that uses Gentle Leaders on all of the SD they produce. I know of another organization that uses choke collars on every SD AND Therapy dog they produce....one of the main reasons, other than the above mentioned for control, is that the dogs are being issued to "common" people...people that are not dog trainers and frankly, for the most part, have maybe never even trained a dog other than sit and shake. And, even though, most reputable organizations require the client/dog team to do on-going training in order to keep their issued certification, they all get lackadaisical, or forget, or get busy, or are overwhelmed with issues/obstacles relating to their disability and the SD ends up getting a bit "soft" in his training.

This does not mean that the SD lacks any particular training or that the person is "faking" because their dog has a choke or prong on...it's a safety precaution that is taken by not only MANY, MANY big organizations...but also owner trainers, like Lin...who I know is a GREAT handler/trainer.


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## msvette2u

Lyz said:


> I find it hard to believe that any parent would lye about a child with autism, irregardless of the reason. It's just such a severe thing to tout around - and I don't mean this offensively - but most parents are grateful to not have a child with any sort of disorder, handicap, or condition. To say your own child has it to bring your dog in public would be one of the higher ends of excuses I've heard for such, and thus, not likely.
> 
> There are people that turn pets into service dogs or put vests on dogs and start calling them services dogs just because "they can" and that the laws aren't clear, or leave a lot of room for such things - but this does not seem like that situation by a long shot.
> 
> That said, I do question the legitimacy of many service dogs.
> This is not one of them.


I agree and in fact I've never met a parent of a child who claimed the child was disabled to "get attention". Because I am on a message board (actually I run it) for disabled kids, nobody comes on their (unless mentally ill themselves) to claim their kid's got a disability. When they come on the support list, it's legit and they are at their wits end from trying "usual" ways to discipline and love their kids, and it's not working because of the disability. 

Nobody I've seen out and about with bratty kids (and there's tons) looks around and says "Oh, they have autism!" just does not happen.
Nobody with bratty kids out and about (and I've seen plenty) looks up and says "Oh they are ADD". Does not happen.

I've never met a parent at any of the school functions who states their child has ADD or Autism. In fact, in 27yrs. of going to school functions and interacting with parents, never once have I met anyone who stated their kids have a disability when they did not obviously have a disability and were in special ed for it. 
Nobody enrolls their children in special ed without a teacher knowing/stating the child needs it and no parent likes having a child in sped, no more than a child likes being in sped.


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## selzer

Wouldn't a person with limited mobility have trouble getting a prong collar on a dog?

Using a quick release prong would be even harder to get on, and easier to accidently come off, I think a bad idea for someone who seriously needs a service dog for limited mobility/hand arm strength reasons.

Someone who is confined to a wheel chair, but has good upper body strength could use either I suppose. I would hope that a service dog would be rock solid with other people and dogs though, and should not need that extra amount of insurance, breaking power, whatever.


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## Gretchen

I see from these postings, I was in error to judge whether or not this child needs a service dog vs. just having a well trained family pet. I also learned, in the future I could ask what a dog's task is. I assumed those questions were prohibited as there is so much privacy relating to health issues.

I am still surprised a service dog does not need a certificate in training, or at least a Canine Good Citizen award if not trained by an organization specializing in service dogs. I also wonder how the growing use of service dogs beyond physical disabilities (for behavioral and psychiatric uses) will impact schools and businesses in years to come. I sincerely apologize for offending anyone, and next time wait until my emotions settle down before I type.


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## Lin

msvette2u said:


> I agree and in fact I've never met a parent of a child who claimed the child was disabled to "get attention". Because I am on a message board (actually I run it) for disabled kids, nobody comes on their (unless mentally ill themselves) to claim their kid's got a disability. When they come on the support list, it's legit and they are at their wits end from trying "usual" ways to discipline and love their kids, and it's not working because of the disability.
> 
> Nobody I've seen out and about with bratty kids (and there's tons) looks around and says "Oh, they have autism!" just does not happen.
> Nobody with bratty kids out and about (and I've seen plenty) looks up and says "Oh they are ADD". Does not happen.
> 
> I've never met a parent at any of the school functions who states their child has ADD or Autism. In fact, in 27yrs. of going to school functions and interacting with parents, never once have I met anyone who stated their kids have a disability when they did not obviously have a disability and were in special ed for it.
> Nobody enrolls their children in special ed without a teacher knowing/stating the child needs it and no parent likes having a child in sped, no more than a child likes being in sped.


Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm fairly sure you haven't personally run into someone with my genetic disorder. It being rare, its a pretty safe bet. However I can assure you it is real.



selzer said:


> Wouldn't a person with limited mobility have trouble getting a prong collar on a dog?


Yes and no. Depends on the cause of the limited mobility. I do have difficulty with regular prong collars due to nerve damage in my hands. Someone with only shoulder or elbow issues causing limited mobility could easily put a prong on a dog. Occasionally I have to ask my roommate or boyfriend to give me a hand, so I don't spend 10 minutes putting it on. 



selzer said:


> Using a quick release prong would be even harder to get on, and easier to accidently come off, I think a bad idea for someone who seriously needs a service dog for limited mobility/hand arm strength reasons.


My quick release prongs are very easy to get on. I much prefer them over my standard prongs. To date, I've never had a quick release fail but I have had a standard prong come undone. Regardless of the reason for prong use, if you are not 100% sure your dog will respond off leash you need to be using a backup. I have custom prong collars I've made due to the misconception that a prong alone means an untrained dog, and they have the added benefit of being a backup in case the prong was to come apart. My newer one, is a cover for the prong links and a buckle nylon collar instead of the chain. Very simple to put on and take off, and no quick release to fail.


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## AbbyK9

> For instance, I know of an organization that uses Gentle Leaders on all of the SD they produce.


I know which organization you are talking of and I do NOT think it's a good thing that they use head halters on all of their dogs. 

First, because of public perception - a lot of people honestly believe that head halters are "muzzles" of some kind. 

Second, because of the possibility of injury to the dog. I know a lot of people are all about head halters and controlling the head, but I'd much rather see a dog on a prong than on a head halter any day of the week. A lot of people who use them just use them badly ... I can't imagine what it feels like for a dog to be allowed to drift ahead, then hit that end of the lead and have his head snapped around. Ouch. 

Suzanne Clothier has a great article on head halters that I very much agree with, it can be found here --> Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters



> I know of another organization that uses choke collars on every SD AND Therapy dog they produce....one of the main reasons, other than the above mentioned for control, is that the dogs are being issued to "common" people...people that are not dog trainers and frankly, for the most part, have maybe never even trained a dog other than sit and shake.


I think that putting a choke collar on a Therapy Dog - a dog whose whole purpose is to allow other people to pet it - is a dangerous thing to do. It would be so easy for a child's fingers to get caught up in a choke - kids like to play around with the collars when visiting with Therapy Dogs. Or for an old person's skin to become pinched and injured. (I think most of the Therapy Dog organizations are also very adamant about the fact that dogs MUST be on a flat collar or harness as they consider dogs not "well trained" if they need a prong, head halter, etc.)

I don't know ... I just have a problem with making a training aid a permanent solution, for pets or for Service Dogs, but more so a Service Dog because they should be better trained than the average pet dog and be focused on their handler without the use of a prong, head halter, or other control devices.

I understand the argument that someone with a lack of hand strength or hand dexterity may need (or feel safer) having more control with a prong or head halter, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think a prong or head halter should be NEEDED on a Service Dog. The dog should be well-trained enough that they could be called to refocus or stop verbally if they get distracted or lunge forward for any reason.

Have I used a prong for training? Of course. It's a great tool. But it's just that ... a tool to reach an end (trained dog). Once no longer needed to control the dog, it should go. Same with head halters, front-clip harnesses, etc.


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## Lin

AbbyK9 said:


> The dog should be well-trained enough that they could be called to refocus or stop verbally if they get distracted or lunge forward for any reason


A verbal correction to refocus or stop while working is really not the best. It would attract much more attention or have people assuming your dog is not trained than a subtle collar correction that only you know happened. 

Tessa can definitely refocus or respond to a verbal correction. Actually with her, a physical correction is much milder than a verbal correction. So for both subtlety as well as being as unobtrusive as possible, the prong can be a better option.


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