# Out of motion exercises



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Does anyone have good training videos for the sit and down out of motion?


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

No video, but I've heard of this method called "blocking". 

Schutzhund-Training.com - Motion Exercises


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I don't have anything video-wise but I've always trained the behavior while playing ball. So eventually I can do a down or sit at distances as well as when the dog is in motion. Then tacking it on to the heeling is fairly simple. The stand in motion is a little harder due to the fact the dog is already standing but I have it trained so they really know what it means to stand from a sit or a down. Currently I'm working on getting the stand at a heel. Not as easy in my mind.

So in agility I have to make sure I tell Minka to hup on to the platform before giving a down or sit command because she will drop like a rock where ever she is at.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I guess I should say, that like many other behaviors I like to train it away from the final behavior so in this case the heeling.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have the sit/down pretty much... but would like to add speed in. With this particular dog, compulsion is not the best choice. I do not use electric.
So I am working the speed by rewarding. 

So I guess what I am asking is.... when/how do you reward the out-of-motion exercise to build speed?


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

With Minka I do a variation on the two ball play where I get a fast game going over a short distance. Meaning sometimes I throw the ball to her mouth or away from us but not to far in order to keep the pace up. Then cue a sit or a down, periodically. In the beginning I would give her time to figure it out and reward with a ball. Now if she doesn't go to position fast enough I say OK instead of marking it and don't throw a ball. I encourage her to run a few steps cue again. Fast performance gets the ball. Also the down must be correct meaning no sit to a down. I want a straight drop into a down. Anyhow that has worked for me. Hope this helps.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I don't believe that a mark and reward works very well to speed up positions. There are too many associations the dog can make that are not related to speed. How does the dog know why you are rewarding or withholding? 

I think that if the dog is in the correct mindset the positions will be fast. The elements are: 



dog feels comfortable and attentive with handler
dog feels confident
dog understands the exercise
dog is in drive
If you can get those elemnts together the dog will will be both fast and accurate. And keep in mind that accuracy is waaaaaay more important than speed. The most common screw up in schutzhund comes from handlers trying to squeeze .05-1 out of an exercise. They have a dog that is almost perfect but in their quest for perfection the whole thing blows up.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Fast said:


> I don't believe that a mark and reward works very well to speed up positions. There are too many associations the dog can make that are not related to speed. How does the dog know why you are rewarding or withholding?
> 
> I think that if the dog is in the correct mindset the positions will be fast. The elements are:
> 
> ...


That makes sense so what I'm really doing now, since she knows the game, is building the drive and focus so the majority of the time she responds quickly. Thus, I'm building habit? Because outside the game, in agility or while heeling or anywhere (so far) she drops like a rock on cue, I would say 99% of the time.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

JanaeUlva said:


> That makes sense so what I'm really doing now, since she knows the game, is building the drive and focus so the majority of the time she responds quickly. Thus, I'm building habit?


Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it. 


I also make sure that my dog knows what's coming. Before the build up, while the dog is in basic, I tell him that the sit is coming. That way he feels confident about the position.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Properly introduced and used used electric is a great tool for building speed... Keep in mind you are not frying the dog, and the whole thing relies on the stim being well low enough as to be ignored if you haven't taught the dog that the stim means the exercise is incorrect


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it.
> 
> 
> I also make sure that my dog knows what's coming. Before the build up, while the dog is in basic, I tell him that the sit is coming. That way he feels confident about the position.


The wayi was taught to train this is to always step off the left foot for the sit in motion and the right foot for stand in motion. Both commands also given on there respective foot. I also have a "lighthearted" high pitched fuss when the sit is next, and a lower toned drawn out fuuuussssss when we are doing a stand. It works great


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

If you have the dog doing the exercise but not a speed you like, you can also when the drop slowly give a no and then do the exercise again and if they do it fast give lots of praise. Also you will need to give the dog some small visual cue that the sit is coming up or even a verbal.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> Properly introduced and used used electric is a great tool for building speed... Keep in mind you are not frying the dog, and the whole thing relies on the stim being well low enough as to be ignored if you haven't taught the dog that the stim means the exercise is incorrect


If the dog has been taught that the stim means that he's incorrect then how can you build speed? Look at it from the dog's perspective. He is doing what he has been rewarded for countless times; sitting out of motion in 2.5 seconds. Now today you decide that you want him to do it 1.5 seconds. So you go to the field, do your build-up and tell the dog to sit. 

When do you stim the dog? Before you say sit or after? 

Do you stim the dog while the sit is in progress? 

How does the dog know that he wasn't punished for sitting?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I appreciate all of the feedback so far. 

Since my dog knows the sit/down out of motion (and he is not slow like a hydraulic sit) it sounds like what I need to work on is prepping and clarity. He is still pretty green, so I may be getting ahead of myself.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

szariksdad said:


> If you have the dog doing the exercise but not a speed you like, you can also when the drop slowly give a no and then do the exercise again and if they do it fast give lots of praise.



How does the dog know what you are saying "no" about? How do you stop the dog from thinking that you are negative marking for speed?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> If the dog has been taught that the stim means that he's incorrect then how can you build speed? Look at it from the dog's perspective. He is doing what he has been rewarded for countless times; sitting out of motion in 2.5 seconds. Now today you decide that you want him to do it 1.5 seconds. So you go to the field, do your build-up and tell the dog to sit.
> 
> When do you stim the dog? Before you say sit or after?
> 
> ...


Depends on who you're talking to but for me for building speed it would come pretty much immediately after the command, and turn off once the exercise was complete. Yes there is stim while the exercise is in progress. The dog learns very quickly that he can turn of the stim just by completing the exercise. The dog will begin anticipating the command naturally and trying to beat the stim. You get very quick motions. This assumes that you are absolutely sure the dog understands the exercise, and that the dog absolutely understands he is in control of the stim. You have to keep in mind you are working with "annoying" levels of stim, not "punishment" levels. I don't use stim that is at a painful level. Additionally, I also vibrate, "OK", wait a second, and reward.

You DONT just throw on a collar and start working that way... there is a great deal of foundation work to teach the dog how the ecollar works before you use it in this manner. Otherwise it doesn't work at all, dog probably won't even notice the stim. To the dog, the stim means "I can turn this thing off and a reward is forthcoming". Its a very positive experience for the dog, not a negative one.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Fast said:


> How does the dog know what you are saying "no" about? How do you stop the dog from thinking that you are negative marking for speed?


Hey Fast,

Maybe you can tell us what you would do to build speed in these exercises rather than discrediting everything other people say? I'm curious to know how you would handle this if you wanted to add speed to the exercises out of motion


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think this is what Fast is talking about.....


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Hey Fast,
> 
> Maybe you can tell us what you would do to build speed in these exercises rather than discrediting everything other people say? I'm curious to know how you would handle this if you wanted to add speed to the exercises out of motion


Forgive me for quoting myself.
_
I think that if the dog is in the correct mindset the positions will be fast. The elements are: 

_


_dog feels comfortable and attentive with handler_
_dog feels confident_
_dog understands the exercise_
_dog is in drive_


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

gagsd said:


> I think this is what Fast is talking about.....


Yes that's a huge part of it. But I also want to stress that it's also about accuracy. I could make pressure and it would work fine *for the speed*. But IME pressure tends to make the dog inaccurate about the position.


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