# How long are your dogs in their crates during the day?



## meli_ssa4

Just curious. Currently my dogs are in their crates from 7AM to 12PM, then from 1PM to 3PM. But we are going to have to switch and leave them for 9hours straight. So just curious of how long other people leave their dogs.


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## Pax8

Mine used to average about 6-8 hours while I was at work, but I live with a roommate now who lets him out a couple hours after I leave for work and only kennels him back up when he leaves the apartment to run errands.


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## car2ner

I'm lucky that I don't have to go out to work so my pup is crated at most 4 hours. Other folks in our club are single and have to work. Their dogs are crated much longer and seem to be doing fine.


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## Ace GSD

Mine is 4 hours weekdays , 6 hours sat/fri and 3 hrs on sunday


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## scarfish

mine are never in the crate during the day. well one is right now 'cause i caught him with his face in the cat box, he'll be in there for maybe an hour. my wife and i work different shifts. i'm home all day with the dogs. when she gets home from work i go to sleep and she has them. when i go to work she goes to sleep and they are locked in the bedroom.

or they just go to work with her during the day.


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## zetti

Luckily, I work from hime, so the 5 mo old only has to be crated a few hours at a time. My 11 yo doesn't have to be crated at all anymore.


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## jafo220

9 to 10 hrs. a day. Out all weekend. Would not normally do this but he is that kind of dog. Last dog never wad kenneled.


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## meli_ssa4

jafo220 said:


> 9 to 10 hrs. a day. Out all weekend. Would not normally do this but he is that kind of dog. Last dog never wad kenneled.


What do you mean? 

I know for sure we could not let our 7month old out in the house, I think he would get into everything. But I think our older dog would be OK. She has never chewed anything in the house. We left her out a few times and watched her using a web cam. She patrolled the house the entire time we were gone. By this I mean she went from door to door, window to window. Never seemed to settle down like she does when she is crated.


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## LaRen616

Sinister is free in the house.

Draven is crated for 8 hours while I am at work.


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## Sunflowers

I can't vote. My answer would be zero. We use an expen, and he is in there maybe 1 to 2 hours a day.
He also sleeps in there at night, from 10 PM to 6 AM.


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## SuperG

Can't vote as well....zero time in crate also.

SuperG


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## LoveEcho

My male isn't crated. My 11-month female would probably burn my house down if allowed to roam, so she is crated 8 hours or so while I'm at work. Occasionally I have to stretch to 9 or 10 hours if something comes up at work, but she gets so much work and exercise it doesn't really phase her.


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## Pawsed

Our dogs are not crated, either. One GSD is 5, the other almost a year and a half. We still have one crate in the bedroom where the older one prefers to sleep, but the door is left open. 

The younger dog learned to open his crate door when he was maybe 8 months old, and did fine left free. He's very clever when he wants to be. He was good in the crate, but didn't sleep in it like our other dog does, so we felt he had no need of it and took it down.


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## Lark

Mine are finally uncrated during the day. My GSD is 2.5 years old, and just recently has started being able to handle being uncrated. They are crated at night still though.


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## MamaofLEO

I wait for the day that Leo (5 month old GSD) can roam free...until then, our el diablo, who ate through 4 beds in the first week (we should have known after 2, right! is crated during his nap, which runs @ 2.5-4hrs, once during the day...he will sleep up to 12-14 hrs at night, through the night. The boards are correct when they say puppies are like babies! We have a 14 year old Black GSD, Shane, that has the run of the house and Leo loves his ex-pen during the day.


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## Ruby'sMom

Never crated our dogs the past. I just recently bought a crate for our 9 month GS and another for 9 year old springer. Springer loves it and sleeps in it all the time. I think he likes to get away from Ruby and have some peace and quiet. Ruby sleeps part time at night. She rather lay down on cool wood floors. I keep the crate doors open, so they can get in and out. And they are in our room. We also have an outdoor fenced kennel that is attached to house that they spend 3-6 hours in a day. One day I forgot to lock access to the house, and we were gone all day. They were both sleeping on the couch when we got home. Ruby was about 7 months at the time. Everything in house was fine. We lucked out.


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## gsdsar

Depends on the day. But 8-10 hours while I am at work. Free other than that.


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## Galathiel

Ugh. My GSD is crated all day and is let out in the middle of the day to goof off with my son while I'm at work. He flunked his test run at staying out (destroyed drywall) and I'm not sure when we'll test it again. He's fine out with someone and if I fall asleep on the couch, he stays out all night. If I go to bed, then he is either crated or sleeping with my son (when he's home). He can't sleep in the bedroom because my old dog hates him and the master suite is HIS domain.


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## MamaofLEO

Galathiel said:


> Ugh...He flunked his test run at staying out (destroyed drywall) and I'm not sure when we'll test it again. .


It is good to know there are other dogs that try to "Shawshank" their way out of rooms  :wild:


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## wyoung2153

I can't vote.. zero wasn't an option. He gets free range of the house and back yard while we are not home. He is really good and never gets into anything.

When he was under a year, he was crated for 8-10 hours a day, with a potty break in between if I could make it home.


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## Springbrz

I can't vote either. I am fortunate to be home all day. When we do go out she has free roam of the house. We don't typically leave her alone uncrated in the house for more than 4-5 hours. More than that and we might crate her. We do crate when we take her on vacation with us and we go out without her.


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## misslesleedavis1

No crates during the day- They are out and about


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## DJEtzel

Mine completely vary, so I couldn't answer accordingly. Sometimes it's less than an hour or two, I work sometimes so it's 4-8, I stayed at a friend's house last weekend for training and he has dogs, so mine stayed in the car in their crates when they weren't training or pottying- probably 20 hours including night time?


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## osito23

Depends. I work 2-3 days/week, so Bear and Winnie are crated 8-10 hours on those days with a potty/play break during lunch. Other days they may only be crated for 1-2 hours at a time. My other dogs aren't crated at all and have free roam of the house.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Our dogs are crated in our bedroom at night, but when we're not home they go into a chain link pen in the garage with a dog door to an outside run, rather than being crated.


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## LaRen616

LaRen616 said:


> Sinister is free in the house.
> 
> Draven is crated for 8 hours while I am at work.


I didn't know we were talking about night time too.

Sinister has not been in a crate at all since he was 2 years old, he is free during the day and during the night.

Draven has never been crated at night time, he is free at night and only crated during the day for 8 hours while I am gone.


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## marshies

Before she turned 2, she was crated 7+ hours while I worked, and let out to potty in the middle by family. She was not reliable in house and would chew when anxious (whether this be anxiety brought on by needing to pee, too much time alone, boredom, etc. She does not have separation anxiety).

After 2, she is reliable loose in the house. I don't test her with human food around, or anything that I don't want chewed up, but she hasn't done much damage other than a couple board game boxes.


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## WateryTart

Pup is six months old, and she is crated for 3-5 hours at a time. I recently had to change my work schedule, but previously I did mornings with her (went in at 9) and my husband did early evenings (home at 4:30), so she was rarely in the crate for longer than 4 hours in one shot. I come home at noon on days when he doesn't telecommute, and I let her out and feed her and spend some time with her. It's nice to have that break in the day.


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## misslesleedavis1

misslesleedavis1 said:


> No crates during the day- They are out and about


If we are counting nights, Ty and shiggs sleep in their crates from about 10pm to 7 30 am


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## WateryTart

misslesleedavis1 said:


> If we are counting nights, Ty and shiggs sleep in their crates from about 10pm to 7 30 am


Oh yeah.

PuppyGirl is crated from 9:30 PM to 6 AM with a break somewhere in there (whenever she asks for it, sometimes it's at 1 and sometimes it's at 5).


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## DJEtzel

I think I answered wrong with my "overnight" comment... OP was just talking about the day... sorry! haha


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## madmaximus

Zero, I hate the idea of keeping my girl in a crate. And she can't defend my house very well in a crate...


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## lauren43

My dogs are def left for more than 8 hours a day. The puppy has enough room to go if he really has to.

But they are never crated while I'm home.


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## trcy

I have three dogs. They are not crated during the day. Mt smallest female dog is crated at night. She sometimes will poo in the house if she isn't, but she has no accidents during the day.


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## meli_ssa4

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I am worried that leaving them for that long would be an issue, but I guess as long as when they are out they are getting enough exercise and mind stimulatin it should be ok.


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## Tulip

Mine's crated 8 1/2 hours when I'm at school on weekdays, and then only about 2-4 hours in the morning and 2 to 2 1/2 hours in the evening when I work on either Saturday or Sunday. The other weekend day I'm home all day.


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## lorihd

Lexie is not crated during the day, but at night she sleeps in her crate, she prefers it that way


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## Wolfgeist

Hunter is loose in the house, he never uses his crate. Zenna is crated maybe 2 hours a day in the morning after they eat? Zenna is crated if we go out somewhere without the dogs (which is rare).


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## AJmom

Saxon is crated at night. But he usually goes right in his crate when he is ready to go to bed. During the day he is never crated unless we have to go somewhere without him.He is nine month old and still thinks socks and toys are a good snack.


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## Bridget

Heidi is never in a crate at all. Of course, she is 13. She hasn't been crated since she was a puppy. Never caused any trouble. Except for getting in the garbage once in a while if we forget to take it out!


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## Buster & Elsa

Zero...Buster and Elsa have free reign during the day in my spacious back yard. They come into the house occasionally. They sleep in a pen area that is spacious and both have large dog houses they sleep in. Per the vet, this is done to protect them...well that and Buster is subject to bark at anything that moves!

When they get out of their puppy stage, they won't be penned up at all. This worked well with our first set of brother and sister GSDs. They lived to be 16 although they were mixed with another breed we never figured out.


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## llombardo

Out of 6 dogs, we are down to just one being in the crate during the day.:happyboogie:	:happyboogie: The one in the crate during the day is out and about at night. He does good for a couple days then he gets bored and takes apart the couch, so back in he goes.


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## GatorDog

Carma is crated when she's unattended, so usually around 8-9 hours while I'm at work. Aiden can be loose.


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## Juliem24

The crate door is open, and Rudy will spend time in there, about 1-2 hours at the most. However, he's the only dog I've ever owned that was NOT crated. Everyone else spent 6-8 hours in crates.


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## gsdlover91

Berlin is left out now. Tesla is crated... When she needs time to "unwind", when we're not home, and during the night currently.


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## meli_ssa4

Thanks everyone for your replies. We have been in our new house now for about 4 weeks. So far we have been able to work from home 2 days a week (because of the weather) but the rest of the time we have been crating Darwin and Rylee while we are at work. The remaining time they are loose. Rylee is now out of her crate at night, but Darwin would be getting into everything so he still get crated at night so we can have some peace so we can sleep. 

So far they have been handling the whole situation very well. As soon as we get home I take them out and we play and do a bit of training for about an hour. By then it is getting dark so we have to come in. I think after Rylee gets more settled into the house we are going to try and allow her to be out during the days as well. I think she is ready now, but my husband has his doubts for some reason.


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## Steve Wright

We dont crate our dog. Must be an american thing.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Steve Wright said:


> We dont crate our dog. Must be an american thing.


Do they not do any type of competition or sport with dogs in your country? If so, how do they contain the dogs that are not on the field?


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## Steve Wright

Good point. Not that I know for sure, but what I have seen people have trailers for dogs that they transport around and at shows ect. they have those little........play pen type things dog go in. Im sure they use creates also. I thought creates were more for when u lived in a cold country or a small house or appartment you could keep your dog inside without him running a muck. 
Anyway I have never heard of a dog sleeping inside in a create in my area as we have big properties and its too bloody hot inside, I even sleep outside some nights in the hamock with the dog. lol


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## Ace GSD

Steve Wright said:


> Anyway I have never heard of a dog sleeping inside in a create in my area . lol


i dont buy that  unless your name is tarzan


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## Ace GSD

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Do they not do any type of competition or sport with dogs in your country? If so, how do they contain the dogs that are not on the field?


They must be professional and highly trained to never be further than 3 feet away from their owner


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## zetti

Only the pup gets crated now, overnight & no more than an hour or two during the day.

The joys of being able to work from home.


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## sehrgutcsg

Bella goes in on her own to eat, so the door can be swinging.. She is inside about 2 hours at a time 2 times a day. She eats dish towels, carpet, ect and has a strong propensity of a intestinal blockage, she's a beautiful crate babe....


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## dogma13

Only overnight.


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## Steve Wright

Nice, my boy has started coming in each night for a few hours before I go to bed. He knows if he lays down in front of the tv and has a sleep he gets to stay in till I go to bed. By 11pm though he is ready go go back out to his world, and back on patrol


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## NanaBear

There isn't an option for "not at all". Nessa has her own bedroom that I share with her for crafts/sewing. We use the command nite-nite Nessa and she puts herself to bed. It is quite comical to watch as she hangs her head and slowly walks to her room.


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## Waffle Iron

I use crates for time outs, relaxing, and if either dog wants to be in the crate, they can. Otherwise, they both have free range and I do not have any issues. My male, Rogan, sleeps at the foot of the bed at night and Lanee sleeps just outside the door in the hallway usually or she goes to the old couch in the "utility room" and curls up on the cleared off corner of it and sleeps.


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## Ruger Monster

Right now he's in there for about 9 hours. I am trying to make it so I can run home during lunch hour, but I work about 25 min each way from work, leaving me all of ~10 minutes to get him fed lunch & taken back outside before leaving again. On a rare occasion I can bring him to work with me - I wish it were everyday  

We're getting an X-Pen this weekend, and putting his crate in there with the door open, so he'll associate it with "bed/safe zone" and not potty in it. We've been leaving him boxed in our kitchen nook at night this week (tall boxes used as gates), but we can't during the day because the Rottie pushes her way in to scope his food dish, which lets him roam unsupervised! At night she sleeps in our room, so he can be left in there without escape. I eventually want him to be able to be left out and about all day at as soon as he's able to be trusted not to chew my expensive couches and is house-trained. I want him to sleep in our room at the foot of the bed like Jasmine does once he's able to


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## SuperG

Zero...none....

Cramped up in a cage for that long seems harsh to me....


SuperG


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## Stonevintage

*Caging dogs is cruel*

How oh how did we ever raise dogs in the past without locking them up in cages like parakeets?

Confining a puppy or dog to a crate/cage for any but the briefest amount of time is inhumane. Get a canary if this is all you can offer. Pups and dogs need room to move around. Just having them in an empty house all day alone with nothing to do is unfair to the dog. Many will show you how bad this is by tearing up your house. 

They need room to move, they need fresh air, they need to play, run, explore and be active for more than an hour per day. Running home at lunch and spending 15-20 minutes with them is not enough in a 9 hour period. Get a gerbil.

Caging a dog has become a substitute for taking the time to train your dog house manners so they don't have to be confined. People get a pup and spend hours in puppy classes training their pup to do all sorts of commands. What about basic training in the house so you don't have to cage them? When a pup is young and not yet trained, keep him in a room blocked off or in a dog size kennel with a dog house, not a small cage. Give him chew toys and plenty of fresh water. Don't make him "hold it" for hours on end.


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## martemchik

Stonevintage said:


> How oh how did we ever raise dogs in the past without locking them up in cages like parakeets?
> 
> 
> 
> Confining a puppy or dog to a crate/cage for any but the briefest amount of time is inhumane. Get a canary if this is all you can offer. Pups and dogs need room to move around. Just having them in an empty house all day alone with nothing to do is unfair to the dog. Many will show you how bad this is by tearing up your house.
> 
> 
> 
> They need room to move, they need fresh air, they need to play, run, explore and be active for more than an hour per day. Running home at lunch and spending 15-20 minutes with them is not enough in a 9 hour period. Get a gerbil.
> 
> 
> 
> Caging a dog has become a substitute for taking the time to train your dog house manners so they don't have to be confined. People get a pup and spend hours in puppy classes training their pup to do all sorts of commands. What about basic training in the house so you don't have to cage them? When a pup is young and not yet trained, keep him in a room blocked off or in a dog size kennel with a dog house, not a small cage. Give him chew toys and plenty of fresh water. Don't make him "hold it" for hours on end.



What is the highest level of training or titling you've ever achieved with a dog?


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## MamaofLEO

Leo is out of his crate (except for sleep at night). He coexists (finally!) with Shane (14 years old). I wish we _had been able_ to do it sooner but he needed to mature. He is also under supervision. We keep his bedroom door open, crate door open and he will drag his blankie and carrot pillow (I can't believe it is still around---bigger one from IKEA, too!) into the long hallway and lay or hang out in room. Shane, our older pup, goes into Leo's room and lays in crate or by his crate. I think the crate will be a tool for us for a long time (travel, sleep etc). 

I concur; dogs need exercise (mental and physical) and need to be out and about---on their time. It took Leo 7+ months to exit his ex-pen and long napped crate breaks. That was Leo. There is no way it is cruel or inhumane. That comment is pretty inflammatory and troubling.


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## Stonevintage

MamaofLeo

Please let me clarify. The title of the post is "How long are your dogs in their crates during the DAY?"

The poll results 4 to 5 hours 40.3%, 7 or more straight 44.2%

This is not counting any hours for pups/dogs crated at night. 

The 4-5 hour people are probably people who come home for lunch, let their dogs out of the crate for 15-20 minutes and then crate them again until they're off work. The other 44% leave them in their crates for 7 or more hours straight. This is probably more like a full work shift of 8.5-9 hours. And this is how they spend their days. People sleep at night, so there's another 8-9 hours gone for any interaction with the dog. The dog is expected to be quiet during the nights, so, these people probably have the dog in the **** crate again all night.

My comment was directed at the poll results and the 90% that responded. It is becoming a common practice and it is sick. It is troubling but was not directed at you. The last time this topic came up, a woman put her two small children in a crate, closed the door, told them to smile and took a picture. She said "see, my children are happy in a crate". Search the crating postings and you will find the photo of the kids in the crate. The moderators apparently though it was funny.


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## gsdsar

I crate 2 of my dogs during the day, one is baby gated in the same room as the others crates. 

I don't think it's cruel or sick. They sleep the whole day anyway, why does it matter where they sleep? 

They are not crated at night or when I am home. They get excersise Anne training when I am home. Or they sleep at my feet and follow me around the house. Being out of the crate does not mean they are in constant motion. I don't know. I don't see the issue.


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## Bebe56

none of my dogs were crated, ever...
and yes, i do own a crate but is more like a place to hide their "valuables" and toys. Tks God, in > than 30 years the worse damage they did was lots of shoe laces, toilet paper and stealing potatoes and carrots from kitchen's cupboard..
My 5 months (almost) old Fritz is a climber and a re-decorator, he can't keep his butt still for more than 5 seconds (except when he supervises my wife cooking, he's lying down and follows every single move, making sure she's doing it right)... yet, he seems to know not to break things, although sometimes he decides the sofa cushions should be in the middle of the living room and whatever is in laundry hamper must be carried outside, in the backyard (imagine my wife's joy and appreciation).
He has 2 beds, one in living room and one by our bed... for some reason he always comes up in the morning (that belly rub could have something to do with it) but always sleeps downstairs.


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## Stonevintage

There's several videos out there on utube. Search "what do my dogs do when I'm not home". It's pretty amazing, they do not just sleep if they're not in a cage. They play with toys, they play with each other, they chew their chew toys, they alert to noises outside, they do sleep, but they are active too. They may very well try to sleep all day in a cage, for lack of the ability to do anything else.


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## pianocandy

Ours is crated for night but I work from home so now that she's getting older and I trust her out around the house the only time she is crated is if my husband is not home and I have students who are scared of dogs. She never goes in my studio anyway but for that half hour I don't think it's hard on her to sit in her crate with a treat in her Kong. Otherwise she lies longingly outside the door wishing for these children to come and play...cause they're obviously there for her and not for piano lessons!


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## Waffle Iron

There is nothing wrong with crating your dog. My GSD's generally roam free, but Rogan, the youngest will stay in his crate all night so he doesn't get into trouble. During the day it's only a few hours at most he's crated as me and my partners work/school shifts only overlap slightly. As he improves with reliability as he grows up, he'll roam free all the time like Lanee does.


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## misslesleedavis1

Sorry,
Exactly what makes you qualified to talk about what other people do with their dogs stonevintage?

Get a grip. It's really not your concern if someone has their dog crated.


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## SuperG

I am curious about something and have a question for those who use crates ...not for transportation but for everyday use around the house in the human's absence.

Is it the goal of all crate users to see the day when their dog(s) no longer need to be crated in your absence or is it something which is viewed as a permanent fixture with no desire to eliminate the use of a crate going forward?


SuperG


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## Nigel

SuperG said:


> I am curious about something and have a question for those who use crates ...not for transportation but for everyday use around the house in the human's absence.
> 
> Is it the goal of all crate users to see the day when their dog(s) no longer need to be crated in your absence or is it something which is viewed as a permanent fixture with no desire to eliminate the use of a crate going forward?
> 
> 
> SuperG


We are working toward "free run" for Ollie, he is the second pup we used a crate with, Ranger was our first. Our older females were confinded to a spare room, they have had "the run" shortly after 6 months as Tuke would jump the gate blocking the doorway. 

Like Stonevintage, I was not happy with the idea at first, definitely not something I'd want to do life long. I've become a believer in their use, it does keep them safe while unsupervised and you just about have to use them to compete. Shows are so busy with people/dogs, it gives them a "safe" hang out in between runs. 

Ollie likes his a lot, he uses it freely throughout the day, Ranger not so much, but he is free run so he only needs crated occasionally.


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## meli_ssa4

SuperG said:


> I am curious about something and have a question for those who use crates ...not for transportation but for everyday use around the house in the human's absence.
> 
> Is it the goal of all crate users to see the day when their dog(s) no longer need to be crated in your absence or is it something which is viewed as a permanent fixture with no desire to eliminate the use of a crate going forward?
> 
> 
> SuperG


For me yes, I eventually want them both to be out of their crates at all times. We have within the past 4 weeks allowed our 2 1/2 year old female to be out full time. She is doing excellent. I think she barked at people walking by the house one day because their was nose prints on the front window and another day the mailman came by to drop off a package and when we got home she was hiding around the corner from the door and growling when we entered. As soon as I said her name she stopped and came running at me. 

Now Darwin, he is a different story, he is very rambunctious and I would most likely bug Rylee all day long trying to play with her. We have a woodstove so for both their safety we don't think it would be best for them both to be allowed out during the day at this time. Hopefully in a few months we can start allowing him out for short periods when we are not home and work him up to being allowed at full time.


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## misslesleedavis1

My are not crated during the day. They are at night, they like their crates. I would assume crates are used as an safe spot for rambunctious dogs that may get into trouble, dogs grow out of this stage and once they do most people are pleased to graduate them to free run of the house.


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## MamaofLEO

*"Crate person" here!*

I'll tell ya, the crate and ex-pen have been a valued part of our life with our pup. Looking over my first post in Oct '14, (Leo loves his ex-pen) we were living for the day that he would be able to be "supervised" free; 3+ months later he is (except for naps and nights) and, although his ex-pen now surrounds our piano (his first biting toy), our trainer(s) said that it (xpen) really was causing him to be aggressive because of its confinement. It took finding a trainer that would give us the time to Leo-fy the house (because, lets face it, if he gets a hold of something, it really is our fault it was available to get) and train both Leo and us how to give him his freedom. Nap time--he goes it his crate (left open in his room)--sometimes, he drags his blankie and carrot pillow into hall and sleep time-eventually will be free at night but for now, at night, he starts on my bed for a couple of hours (on another blankie) and then we say, "bed time" and walk and off to "his house" he goes. I say, to each dog---their own!


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## Blitzkrieg1

When you have trained and owned multiple dogs of differing drive and activity levels you realize there is no correct way . Dogs in the past were often kenneled, often left outside all day, ran loose in neighborhoods etc. Lets not put a golden haze on the way dogs of the past were kept. 

What I will say about the past is that it seems people tended to have more common sense when it came to dealing with negative behaviors. Eg. Newspaper upside the nose .


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## Ruger Monster

Ruger is no longer crated during the day - I got tired of cleaning poop off him when I'd wake up / get home  ... he has a homemade "pen" right now in the kitchen nook, but we're ordering an X-pen for him that we're going to connect to his crate. He's finally sleeping in his crate at night, with the door removed from it, within the pen.

I look forward to the day he wont need to be crated / can roam freely. He has escaped a couple times, & I've found no poop anywhere in the house other than the nook area, or anything chewed up. Pee, I'm sure he had some accidents that dried up before I was home to notice. He's still got a ways to go to be out of the landshark phase though, and to be fully house trained - once we reach that point & get some training done with him, we can't wait for him to be "free" while we're not there.


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## dogfaeries

All three of mine are loose, but I still have to crate sometimes. With 2 intact girls and an intact boy, it's necessary. But most of the time, they're out.


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## HeartbrokenGSDMomfromPF

I see the crate as a training tool for the new puppy. By about 6-8 months we barely needed it anymore. Now it's in storage for when we travel.

As an adult, he is loose in the house day and night, whether we are here or not, and has lovely house manners.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Captain: Hardly ever. Maybe 2 hours in the crate per WEEK. Thats it.,he is free to roam the house with me.

Sailor was NEVER crated except for when I first adopted him. After he gained my trust he didn't need the crate anymore.


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## WateryTart

It would be nice to eventually "graduate" her to being free in the house. I'm told around two years is when I can start to trust a pup enough to make that move. We have cats, though, so I'm not sure if we ever will while they're alive.


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## bruiser

I don't really crate any more unless he is getting in to things when in the house. When I did crate it was two 4 hour blocks with me coming home an hour for lunch. Now when the weather is good they have a doggie door from the house to the backyard.


----------



## Saphire

Stonevintage said:


> Confining a puppy or dog to a crate/cage for any but the briefest amount of time is inhumane. Get a canary if this is all you can offer. Pups and dogs need room to move around. Just having them in an empty house all day alone with nothing to do is unfair to the dog. Many will show you how bad this is by tearing up your house.
> 
> They need room to move, they need fresh air, they need to play, run, explore and be active for more than an hour per day. Running home at lunch and spending 15-20 minutes with them is not enough in a 9 hour period. Get a gerbil.


How offensive this comment is to many owners here. By your standards, many of us have no right to our gsd and instead should invest in a canary. Perhaps its inhumane to keep a bird meant to fly, in a cage its entire life. I think it's inhumane and irresponsible to leave an untrained puppy loose in a house to eat power cords, furniture etc. all of which can lead to a painful death. I would much rather come home to my crated puppy and spend happy, quality time with him/her rather than being angry as i clean up the mess and destruction they have unleashed on the home while you were working working to pay for the food, training and vetting that puppy needs. You paint a pretty picture of the perfect household where someone is always home. Your standards mean most homes should not have a dog. 

Many many years ago, Ohhhh 30 or so...I thought dog crates were awful. Times have changed and so have the dynamics of the average household. Not many stay at home parents these days. 

As for what I do. I've not had a cut off date for any of my dogs. They earn my trust for house freedom. Some may or may not earn that freedom. Gus was crated as a young puppy both when we were at work and in the evening when we slept. He is now loose at night but still crated during the day for 2-3 hours...gawd I'm an awful owner eh? When I'm not working, I spend all free time with Gus, I really don't think I could bond or play 2 ball with a Canary.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I like you as a person stonevintage, but highly disagree and am very pro crating in SPECIFIC scenarios. I don't agree crating is right for everyone, every dog, all the time, it just depends. For many people crating is a life saver,for the dog too. Captain loves his crate. I don't crate him normally because I have the luxury of staying at home but, at night, he goes downstairs and chooses to sleep in his crate all night rather than sleep upstairs with us. He just likes it. It's like his little wolf den thing. Haha. When we leave for several hours I put him in the crate as well. Right now I only trust him to stay alone, loose in my home for 30 minutes. One day I will work him up to several hours.

I also don't think it's cruel to keep your dog in your house when you are gone during the day. I think it would be more cruel to leave them outside at the mercy of the elements, hot sun, hit weather, freezing Weather, bad people, stray animals, people trying to steal or harm your dog etc...

Stone vintage, I am curious since you think this is in humane, what is the correct way you should keep an animal when you are gone for several hours. How do you do it?


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## SuperG

I have to assume the goal for all is to allow a dog free rein of it's surroundings. 


SuperG


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## Jack's Dad

SuperG said:


> I have to assume the goal for all is to allow a dog free rein of it's surroundings.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Not much free rein in a crate. Couldn't get into much trouble if left in an empty closet all day. Could you SuperG?


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## Stonevintage

SuperG said:


> I have to assume the goal for all is to allow a dog free rein of it's surroundings.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I assumed that also until I read several posts on this site. The questions were asking if it would be ok to crate a dog all day while they were away at work. I was shocked that this is done. The results of the survey show that the crates are being used to cage a dog for over 7 hours. The posts in which these people asked about caging their dog all day were told that it is acceptable to do so. It is my opinion that this is not except- able as an everyday normal practice. At no point did the posts I read discuss that this was a temporary situation. No discussions on how to eventually transition them to being free were discussed. That is what got me so upset.

Saphire dug this old posting of mine up and once again she eliminated my explanation for the comment which was also posted back then which explained my comment was directed at the people who crate their dogs all day every day while they are at work.


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## KaiserPuppy

Kaiser and Oakley are in their kennels for maybe 3 hours at a time. I come home frequently to let them out to go potty probably 2 times a day while im at work if my wife isn't home all day. They're so spoiled. I also let Kaiser sleep with me every night so he's not in his kennel overnight :b


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## misslesleedavis1

I can't stand crate debates. Crates are valuable tools, they keep dogs safe while traveling and while unsupervised. 
No doubt that some people abuse crates but some people abuse anything and everything they get their hands on. 
I will always have my crates, my dogs use them at night, they have their blankets in them and when I say "bedtime" they all go downstairs and wait outside the crates. They even sleep in them while we are away, door open and all. When raising Dexter he used a crate until he broke out of it a few times and caused no damage to the home, at that point I knew he could be trusted and left him out but you know were that dog is right now? Asleep in a crate. I don't have the luxury of staying home all day and pestering my dogs but I do have the luxury of being in a spot were I am able to off leash safely exercise them for an hour a couple times a day and that to me is adequate. 
I love my dogs, they are well taken care of and from were I am sitting they don't look hard done by because they use crates and I am not up their ass all day.


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## SuperG

_"Not much free rein in a crate. Couldn't get into much trouble if left in an empty closet all day. Could you SuperG? "_



I was nothing but trouble as a kid...in an empty closet...I'd be at it getting out so I could cause more trouble or at least stay occupied physically or mentally....in order to cause more trouble. most likely.

As far as the dogs I've shared this house with over the decades...4 of them..each one earned it's full house freedom's in shorter order than it's predecessor. It makes sense since I had little idea of how to train a dog with my first...certainly not the dog's fault. I will say, one learns a lot through their mistakes...at least I feel I have.

My latest greatest gal owned the house before 6 months...paid a small price on one occasion...a small section of carpeting...but within tolerance. However, with this bitch, I was around 24/7 from day one with her if I chose and that is a huge luxury. For so many, it's different....but my previous 3 had me at a time when I was in this "different" situation.


SuperG


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## Nikitta

My dogs are lucky, in that I'm retired and home a lot. Crate times are only when I'm not at home. I feed them in their kennels and that's it when I'm at home. I can't trust them alone because they would tear the place to shreds going after my cats if I wasn't there. So I didn't take the pole because there is no choice for me. My dogs are not in their kennels anywhere near 4 hours.


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## Saphire

Stonevintage said:


> Saphire dug this old posting of mine up and once again she eliminated my explanation for the comment which was also posted back then which explained my comment was directed at the people who crate their dogs all day every day while they are at work.


You continue to offend many good dog owners on this forum. I didn't eliminate your explanation, I just find it very judgemental of you. Again, to all those that work outside the home and crate your dog's for their safety, you should get a Canary....correct Stonevintage?


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## llombardo

The only one of my dogs that will go and lay down in the crate when the door is open is my oldest and she was never crate trained. She fully enjoys being in there and sleeping. The others do fine if they have to go to the vet or if I tell them to go into the crate but they do not just go in there. 

I do think crates are a great tool but the end result should be earned freedom. I do think they are a great means of keeping a dog or pup safe but I also think that in case of a fire or flood it's a death trap. That thought scares me enough to work on training quickly and efficiently. Even if it means they move from a closed crate to an expen or gated area. 

I don't have a basement and I worry about flooding often. Does anyone else take fire or flooding into consideration when crating their dogs?


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## SuperG

Maybe it's just me....but if I had a canary I'd probably want it flying around the house....can these canaries be trained ??/


SuperG


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## llombardo

SuperG said:


> Maybe it's just me....but if I had a canary I'd probably want it flying around the house....can these canaries be trained ??/
> 
> 
> SuperG


Yep and they can poop in your food while cooking too


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## misslesleedavis1

SuperG said:


> Maybe it's just me....but if I had a canary I'd probably want it flying around the house....can these canaries be trained ??/
> 
> 
> SuperG


Lol yeah! But good luck with the poop


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## onyx'girl

all of my dogs are crate trained...though I only have two set up at the moment and they are for the young puppy. One in the bedroom and one in the breezeway/birdroom(and yes, my birds live in cages, gasp). The three oldest are great loose in the house...both Onyx and Karlo were free around 7 months of age. 
14 week old Gambit settles great in a crate, has done so since he came home from his breeder. At this time, he's crated for about 6 hours total a day, and all night long. Many times I'll go put him in his crate and have to kick one of the other dogs out of it, they all are happy to be crated. I also crate in the vehicles and that is all day long on training days 7 am to about 5 pm. Gambit does well so far on those days too, no carsickness or whimpering.
But he is only crated for about 3 hours total as my kids let him out for potty breaks.
I didn't participate in the poll.


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## SuperG

Well I'm guessing you can't train them easily enough....I'm not getting a canary....


SuperG


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## misslesleedavis1

We don't Lombardo, only because we are home while they are crated. 
If you are concerned about it though you can buy stickers that alert fire fighters of dogs in the home, and I guess if flooding I'd a huge concern you could always elevate the crates


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## Jack's Dad

SuperG said:


> Maybe it's just me....but if I had a canary I'd probably want it flying around the house....can these canaries be trained ??/
> 
> 
> SuperG


I felt the same way with my parakeets when I was a kid. I let them fly around the house but as other have said, take a close look at your food. That may not be a glob of salt an pepper on your plate.


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## llombardo

misslesleedavis1 said:


> We don't Lombardo, only because we are home while they are crated.
> If you are concerned about it though you can buy stickers that alert fire fighters of dogs in the home, and I guess if flooding I'd a huge concern you could always elevate the crates


At this point I have only one in a crate and I moved him by the front door. 

My guess is that if smoke alarms went off and firefighters came in they would all be by the back door. I'm so paranoid about it that I have done my own fire drills and trained them to go to the back door


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## misslesleedavis1

SuperG said:


> Well I'm guessing you can't train them easily enough....I'm not getting a canary....
> 
> 
> SuperG


I learned that canary + being a clean freak and using lysol = canary death

Needles to say no more birds for me.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jack's Dad said:


> I felt the same way with my parakeets when I was a kid. I let them fly around the house but as other have said, take a close look at your food. That may not be a glob of salt an pepper on your plate.


Just wanted to add. Light sockets without bulbs in them can be pretty electrifying for them.


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## misslesleedavis1

llombardo said:


> At this point I have only one in a crate and I moved him by the front door.
> 
> My guess is that if smoke alarms went off and firefighters came in they would all be by the back door. I'm so paranoid about it that I have done my own fire drills and trained them to go to the back door


I think that's pretty cool you fire drill trained them!
Just buy a few stickers alerting workers to the dogs. If you keep up maintenance on everything you shouldn't have to worry and if you cared too you could buy a nest system which tell you thru your mobile phone were smokes detected even carbon.


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## SuperG

llombardo said:


> .
> 
> I'm so paranoid about it


Nothing wrong with planning worse case scenarios......if, in the rarity that it should ever come to fruition....you won't have to kick yourself for never giving it a thought previously.



SuperG


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## MamaofLEO

We crate Leo (still) and look forward to the day he able to be less supervised (I mean, slippers, magazines and clutter that find its way to his mouth is obviously our fault). When he was smaller, we "experimented" with different gates and hallways and crates and ex-pens. Although probably delayed freeing him at 8 months for full run (supervised) with Shane (13+ GSD), we still use his crate at sleep and nap time and when we are out of the house. We don't want him Shawshanking through another wall (see exhibit A, below). He would have only gotten through to the laundry room. < sigh>. 


Exhibit A--Leo's "handiwork"



sidenote: we also have stickers on all windows (1 story, ranch home) for fire/Dog Rescue and our police and fire officers come to our house every 3-5 years to update emergency plan (they do for all residents of our small town, with 1,100 residents and their other pets, horses); they actually have a pet database for emergency (if called for fire or other emergency through the village). Pretty cool protocol.


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## Stonevintage

Saphire said:


> You continue to offend many good dog owners on this forum. I didn't eliminate your explanation, I just find it very judgemental of you. Again, to all those that work outside the home and crate your dog's for their safety, you should get a Canary....correct Stonevintage?


Saphire - would you please stop trying to assuage your boredom by digging up old post's?. You and I had a problem with my very first post on this site. I have not responded to any of your posts in the last 8 months, nor have you to mine. Let's keep it that way ok? Or, if you want, I can post to your oldie but goodie "I'm a correction officer and I'm sick of the mentally ill being able to use the excessive force claim". "I have to fill out a bunch of paperwork". How many people do you think you offended with that post?


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## Chip18

llombardo said:


> At this point I have only one in a crate and I moved him by the front door.
> 
> My guess is that if smoke alarms went off and firefighters came in they would all be by the back door. I'm so paranoid about it that I have done my own fire drills and trained them to go to the back door


Aww crap now I have another "what if" to ponder over!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Interesting to see that I'm not the only one on this website that has bad blood with someone I actively ignore. Regardless, not trying to make fun or anything but, crates IMO really work for a lot of people, I am very pro crate even though I rarely use them. However I have had to use them many times and have been pleased. As a matter of fact, I just bought my mom's spoiled rotten italian greyhound a crate because my mom kept complaining that her dog would chew up her favorite quilts and would poop on her couch which is actually their bed they sleep in. For some reason my mom prefers sleeping on her couch to her bed lol. Anyway, this dog has gotten so out of control and I know it's my moms fault, I told her she spoils her too much, and she just gets real soft when it comes to disciplining her.(as far as setting rules, nilif, actively training her) She knows this. Alas, a crate is the only option she wanted to try while she is away at work. My mom leaves in the morning maybe 8'am, my brother gets home from school around 3. I don't think that's animal abuse, and I think my mom can finally stop washing her poopy quilts and replacing her expensive comforters and quilts. It's actually more humane because when fresca (her dog)is left out to wreak havoc on the house my mom will get mad and spank her, so really if anything, me buying my mom a crate for her birthday present is PREVENTING cruelty to animals. *sigh*


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## llombardo

Chip18 said:


> Aww crap now I have another "what if" to ponder over!


That's what I said when I read a story about a dog drowning in a flooded basement because he couldn't get out of the crate


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## Chip18

llombardo said:


> That's what I said when I read a story about a dog drowning in a flooded basement because he couldn't get out of the crate


Aww Crap!!!


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## Stonevintage

Stonevintage said:


> MamaofLeo
> 
> Please let me clarify. The title of the post is "How long are your dogs in their crates during the DAY?"
> 
> The poll results 4 to 5 hours 40.3%, 7 or more straight 44.2%
> 
> This is not counting any hours for pups/dogs crated at night.
> 
> The 4-5 hour people are probably people who come home for lunch, let their dogs out of the crate for 15-20 minutes and then crate them again until they're off work. The other 44% leave them in their crates for 7 or more hours straight. This is probably more like a full work shift of 8.5-9 hours. And this is how they spend their days. People sleep at night, so there's another 8-9 hours gone for any interaction with the dog. The dog is expected to be quiet during the nights, so, these people probably have the dog in the **** crate again all night.
> 
> My comment was directed at the poll results and the 90% that responded. It is becoming a common practice and it is sick. It is troubling but was not directed at you. The last time this topic came up, a woman put her two small children in a crate, closed the door, told them to smile and took a picture. She said "see, my children are happy in a crate". Search the crating postings and you will find the photo of the kids in the crate. The moderators apparently though it was funny.


Here ya go Barbie. This is my old post explaining my opinion which was posted back to back with the one that Saphire chose to bring forward tonight. This one, along with the other that I posted at the same time explained that my post was directed at people who crate their dogs for the entire time they are at work. It has nothing to do with you crating your dog nor your mom. Please go back and read, no offence either, but I suggested you read the posts and it is apparent you didn't. There is further explanation on page 6 or 7 of this post all of which were posted in conjunction with the one Saphire posted tonight, 6 weeks later......


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Yes stonevintage, I think I totally missed where you told me to read the older posts. Didn't notice it.

Addendum:

I think crates are great for people going to work who are still training their dogs. I feel like the goal of using a crate should be as a training tool until the dog has earned trust to be loose in the house. I don't believe in crating a dog every day of its life 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 10-12 years of life. Unfortunately, for some people they are not willing to put in the work to transition their dog out of the crate (my moms dog).

Then there are some people who have dogs who for whatever reason the dog can never be trusted no matter what it's whole life, this is a whole other can of worms I don't wish to go into now.


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## WateryTart

I don't feel badly about crating my dog during the day. She "goes to work" just like we do and gets a lunch break like we do. I don't think it's the act of cruelty some people do.

Granted, in return she receives 95-100% of our time and engagement when we aren't working. We actively plan weekend stuff that she will enjoy. Evenings are her time. I think there are a range of valid opinions on whether that's a truly fair trade but she's a happy puppy, so I'm not worried.

Ideally we'd work toward letting her have the run of the house but that means leaving her with the cats unsupervised, and we're not entirely comfortable with this. They aren't friends (not for lack of effort on her part but the cats hate her). I guess we will see when she's about 2.


----------



## Stonevintage

And I hope, here's my last post on the topic.

Some have asked, if you don't cage how do you manage?

I worked full time with my last GSD and he was with me from 10 weeks to 14.5 years. Every place that I have ever rented or owned had have this setup or I would not live there with a dog.

1. A secure and adequate fence. 2. A garage our larger (not a Walmart metal shed) outbuilding that would be shelter for my dog. In this out building is a couch with a couple of wool blankets. Doors always open so there is free run from yard to building. At night they were always in the house snug in front of the fireplace or in bed. 5 dogs raised thru time this way, none crated although I did block them off in the laundry room or kitchen when they were puppies until they were potty trained.

We had cats. Puppys got used to the cats while blocked off during potty training so when the puppy finally made first contact with cats - they were old news and not toys. A couple of swats by the cats on the puppies nose (sounds like velcro) and they lived together fine in the house when no one was home. When Smoke got to be 8 years old, he preferred to spend his days in the house - never tore anything up, didn't kill the cats.

My latest pup Summer, has had free run of the house since she was about 5 months old. She's now 10 months old. Damage? 4 pair of 2.00 reading glasses and she chewed about a 5 inch area of molding (wood trim) by the front door. That's it. That's acceptable to me. It will set me back about 20.00. 

IMHO people shouldn't have these dogs unless they have the proper environment to house them in. Thinking that you must have your dog caged in a house because someone might steal it if in a yard may be reality in some areas, but not in most. 

Caging one of these dogs most of the day, then most of the night (while you are sleeping) is an injustice to me.

It seems that so many are afraid of damage to their home or their dog getting stolen or they don't have proper housing in the first place for a dog that crates are just a justification. It's too bad that there are puppy classes for people to teach sit, laydown and socialization with bunches of other puppies, but they are no classes to teach house manners which would give most pups at least a little more freedom than a cage. I read on a post here today that their understanding is that a GSD cannot be trusted out of a cage until they are over 2 years old. Bull&*^t.


----------



## Chip18

Well if I must... I don't understand all the misbehaving house manners stuff myself? We spent two weeks at xmas with our first dog Gunther. We got him at 12 weeks and at 14 weeks we left the back sliding door open, so he was free to come and go as he pleased.

We took reasonable precautions, put things away gave him toys and said Gunther be good, see you in a few hours, bye. Yes we were willing to accept some "damage" but he was a happy well adjusted pup and all was fine.

Four more puppies and same deal!

Stewie did rip into a giant case of paper towels from Costco once but...hey we left them on the floor,so fair game!  

And Rocky who came on board at 7 months same deal...no issues in the house stuff (damage) regards.

But in the interest of full disclosure a crate with Rocky, in retro spec would have been a wise move! "Pack" stuff..but thats a diffrent story.


----------



## Chip18

WateryTart said:


> Ideally we'd work toward letting her have the run of the house but that means leaving her with the cats unsupervised, and we're not entirely comfortable with this. They aren't friends (not for lack of effort on her part but the cats hate her). I guess we will see when she's about 2.


Sounds like a "good" dog "bad' cat scenario! In that link is a Joe Galaxy approach, I think when the "cat" is at issue that is the way to go! You can post any follow up questions in that thread. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6623394-post5.html


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> At this point I have only one in a crate and I moved him by the front door.
> 
> My guess is that if smoke alarms went off and firefighters came in they would all be by the back door. I'm so paranoid about it that I have done my own fire drills and trained them to go to the back door


I understand. I have window in my bedroom that I pull the screen off and insert a room size air conditioner every year. On the day I do this each year, I allow my dog to hop out and in that window a couple of times. My thought is that if worse comes to worse, I will be in bed if fire breaks out, my dog sleeps in the bedroom with me. I'm putting up a blanket up for padding and busting through the glass and me and my pup are doing an exit stage left thru that window. Same goes for intruders in the house. I have one of those NYC door knob pole blocks that I will use and dog and I are going out the bedroom window and I will be yelling "FIRE" like a a screaming banchee. No bad guy would stick around a maniac display like that!


----------



## WateryTart

Holy cow. I think you are more worked up than my dog is, Stone! I'm sorry you feel that way. We will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Saphire

Stonevintage said:


> Saphire - would you please stop trying to assuage your boredom by digging up old post's?. You and I had a problem with my very first post on this site. I have not responded to any of your posts in the last 8 months, nor have you to mine. Let's keep it that way ok? Or, if you want, I can post to your oldie but goodie "I'm a correction officer and I'm sick of the mentally ill being able to use the excessive force claim". "I have to fill out a bunch of paperwork". How many people do you think you offended with that post?


If i haven't posted to your posts in awhile it's because I've nothing to say about them, not because I'm avoiding you or dislike you. I'm not out to get you. Feel free to discuss any posts I've made, I'm a big girl.

Since you have an issue with me, just put me on ignore and you won't see my posts. ?

But, I still disagree with your stand on crating (and I only crate my dog for 3 hours and day max).


----------



## Saphire

Stonevintage said:


> And I hope, here's my last post on the topic.
> 
> Some have asked, if you don't cage how do you manage?
> 
> I worked full time with my last GSD and he was with me from 10 weeks to 14.5 years. Every place that I have ever rented or owned had have this setup or I would not live there with a dog.
> 
> 1. A secure and adequate fence. 2. A garage our larger (not a Walmart metal shed) outbuilding that would be shelter for my dog. In this out building is a couch with a couple of wool blankets. Doors always open so there is free run from yard to building. At night they were always in the house snug in front of the fireplace or in bed. 5 dogs raised thru time this way, none crated although I did block them off in the laundry room or kitchen when they were puppies until they were potty trained.
> 
> We had cats. Puppys got used to the cats while blocked off during potty training so when the puppy finally made first contact with cats - they were old news and not toys. A couple of swats by the cats on the puppies nose (sounds like velcro) and they lived together fine in the house when no one was home. When Smoke got to be 8 years old, he preferred to spend his days in the house - never tore anything up, didn't kill the cats.
> 
> My latest pup Summer, has had free run of the house since she was about 5 months old. She's now 10 months old. Damage? 4 pair of 2.00 reading glasses and she chewed about a 5 inch area of molding (wood trim) by the front door. That's it. That's acceptable to me. It will set me back about 20.00.
> 
> IMHO people shouldn't have these dogs unless they have the proper environment to house them in. Thinking that you must have your dog caged in a house because someone might steal it if in a yard may be reality in some areas, but not in most.
> 
> Caging one of these dogs most of the day, then most of the night (while you are sleeping) is an injustice to me.
> 
> It seems that so many are afraid of damage to their home or their dog getting stolen or they don't have proper housing in the first place for a dog that crates are just a justification. It's too bad that there are puppy classes for people to teach sit, laydown and socialization with bunches of other puppies, but they are no classes to teach house manners which would give most pups at least a little more freedom than a cage. I read on a post here today that their understanding is that a GSD cannot be trusted out of a cage until they are over 2 years old. Bull&*^t.


Here lies the problem in itself. Your idea of proper housing is different from mine. I have a fenced yard but will never leave him in it when I'm not home. Too many things can happen, dogs can escape by digging or jumping and yes people have had their dogs stolen. Bad behaviours have a chance to take hold, just not comfortable with it. Just so you feel ok, I'm not judging you. ?


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## llombardo

While I don't think crating is a permanent solution, I'm not a fan of leaving a dog in the yard either. Leaving the dog in the yard has a zero chance of happening. Mine dig and eat stuff while I'm here, I can't imagine what they would do if I left them to their own devices all day outside in the yard. It wouldn't be safe for them. There are escape artists, people stealing dogs, people poisoning dogs, wildlife and stuff like that.


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## Lykoz

Well the poll is ridiculous to me...

You assume everyone keeps dogs in crates for at least 4-5 hours during day.

You want a real indication, you cant ignore the people whose dogs will never spend so long in a crate during the day.

For all of you saying anything can happen in a fenced yard... 
Please wake up and smell the coffee. 
Dont use false justification excuses. If you dont have a yard, and that is your solution, thats fine. 
But I dont want to hear people saying 'its dangerous'... There is NOTHING dangerous about it.
There is more danger in taking your dog for a walk or a hike off leash. Should we not do that either? The dog could be poisoned...

Its not the Zombie apolcalypse... Dogs are fine...
You are all assuming its not safe to justify keeping a dog in a crate for 8 hours during the day... Which is ridiculous IMO..
The only arguement I can understand, is based, maybe on 'training', but not on health and safety!
I would rather walk through a high crime area for 8 hours than be locked in a crate for 8 hours daily.

I try not judge people keeping dogs in crates for 8 hours at a time...
But please people... Dont give your opinions about a dog being in a fenced yard being unsafe...
Thats ridiculous. In the 8 dogs me and family have had over the years, nothing has happened to ANY of them..
Its a very UNLIKELY for something to happen.
Dogs are not as vulnerable as you think. There is more chance of the dog dying from being forced to be sedentary for 8 hours every day... and another 8 hours everynight... (Total of 16 hours)... 

Then they spend most of the rest of the day in the house... Made to 'behave' and sit anyways... 
That is the hallmarks of what we call a DANGEROUSLY LACK OF EXERCISE...
Even if you walk the dog for two hours every day.. Which is often unrealistic.

So I will not accept anyone telling me it is 'dangerous' to keep dogs outside free in a fenced yard.
It is not.. It never has been. And it wont ever be.

Things happen... But its NOT the NORM!


----------



## Bella67

No, I strongly believe that it is not safe to leave dogs while not being watched outside properly for short or long periods of time. Someone's Collie around my neighborhood just got stolen. Why? Because they left the dog in their backyard, unattended. Same exact thing happened with one of my family member's boxer.. never got the dog back. I rather have my dog safely in their crate rather than risking him getting stolen, hurt, or anything in that matter. 
Part of it is off topic, but here is a picture I saw. It only takes one time for them to be alone in the yard and then they could forever. How would you feel if you saw that your dog was used for fighting? Or for puppy mills? That dog you claimed you would do anything for them BUT put them in a cage because it is 'unfair' for them.


----------



## Saphire

Lykoz said:


> Well the poll is ridiculous to me...
> 
> You assume everyone keeps dogs in crates for at least 4-5 hours during day.
> 
> You want a real indication, you cant ignore the people whose dogs will never spend so long in a crate during the day.
> 
> For all of you saying anything can happen in a fenced yard...
> Please wake up and smell the coffee.
> Dont use false justification excuses. If you dont have a yard, and that is your solution, thats fine.
> But I dont want to hear people saying 'its dangerous'... There is NOTHING dangerous about it.
> There is more danger in taking your dog for a walk or a hike off leash. Should we not do that either? The dog could be poisoned...
> 
> Its not the Zombie apolcalypse... Dogs are fine...
> You are all assuming its not safe to justify keeping a dog in a crate for 8 hours during the day... Which is ridiculous IMO..
> The only arguement I can understand, is based, maybe on 'training', but not on health and safety!
> I would rather walk through a high crime area for 8 hours than be locked in a crate for 8 hours daily.
> 
> I try not judge people keeping dogs in crates for 8 hours at a time...
> But please people... Dont give your opinions about a dog being in a fenced yard being unsafe...
> Thats ridiculous. In the 8 dogs me and family have had over the years, nothing has happened to ANY of them..
> Its a very UNLIKELY for something to happen.
> Dogs are not as vulnerable as you think. There is more chance of the dog dying from being forced to be sedentary for 8 hours every day... and another 8 hours everynight... (Total of 16 hours)...
> 
> Then they spend most of the rest of the day in the house... Made to 'behave' and sit anyways...
> That is the hallmarks of what we call a DANGEROUSLY LACK OF EXERCISE...
> Even if you walk the dog for two hours every day.. Which is often unrealistic.
> 
> So I will not accept anyone telling me it is 'dangerous' to keep dogs outside free in a fenced yard.
> It is not.. It never has been. And it wont ever be.
> 
> Things happen... But its NOT the NORM!


Members of this forum have posted about their dog escaping the yard while they were at work. While running free they were hit and killed by cars. It does happen.

You can't compare leaving a dog in yard while your at work to hiking off leash. Your still supervising while your hiking.


----------



## David Winners

Here's a couple articles concerning dog theft. It happens in my town. 

http://www.akc.org/press-center/pet-theft/

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/dognapped-frightening-facts-pet-theft/147

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20842682,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/08/26/dog-thefts-are-way-up-can-protect-your-pet/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyl...a-surge-of-dog-thefts-across-the-country.html


----------



## Lykoz

Saphire said:


> Members of this forum have posted about their dog escaping the yard while they were at work. While running free they were hit and killed by cars. It does happen.
> 
> You can't compare leaving a dog in yard while your at work to hiking off leash. Your still supervising while your hiking.


THAT IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FENCE PROPERLY!

You want to fence your dog in a yard?
FREAKING MAKE IT UNPENETRABLE FOR THE DOGGIE...
They are not wolves or escape artists.
They want to be in the yard anyways.

This is a management issue...
I could just as easily say they can escape from the crate... Open the door.. and run out...
If your gates are not proper gates... Well...
Is that an issue with keeping dogs outside? Or is it an issue with your fenced yard..?

If you leave a dog in a crate 24/7 its called abuse.
If you forget to take the dog out the crate and it dies of hunger?

Similarly.. A dog outside requires some responsibility, management, and a correct set-up.
If you cant do it.. Its one thing.. 
Its a whole other thing, if you do it incorrectly and then blame the outside...

Its the EXACT same thing as keeping your dog inside..... out of crate...
The worry is incoming possible destruction..


----------



## Bella67

Or it's called either a: the dog jumping the fence because GSD's can jump pretty high or b: someone opening the gate, or easily climbing over it.


----------



## Saphire

Lykoz said:


> THAT IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FENCE PROPERLY!
> 
> You want to fence your dog in a yard?
> FREAKING MAKE IT UNPENETRABLE FOR THE DOGGIE...
> They are not wolves or escape artists.
> They want to be in the yard anyways.
> 
> This is a management issue...
> I could just as easily say they can escape from the crate... Open the door.. and run out...
> If your gates are not proper gates... Well...
> Is that an issue with keeping dogs outside? Or is it an issue with your fenced yard..?
> 
> If you leave a dog in a crate 24/7 its called abuse.
> If you forget to take the dog out the crate and it dies of hunger?
> 
> Similarly.. A dog outside requires some responsibility, management, and a correct set-up.
> If you cant do it.. Its one thing..
> Its a whole other thing, if you do it incorrectly and then blame the outside...
> 
> Its the EXACT same thing as keeping your dog inside..... out of crate...
> The worry is incoming possible destruction..


How do you prevent your dog from jumping over your fence?

Not all dogs are happily contained in a yard. Northern breeds are rediculous escape artists, I used to have 4. 

No need for caps, your scaring me. ?


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> Here's a couple articles concerning dog theft. It happens in my town.
> 
> Pet Theft - American Kennel Club
> 
> Dognapped! Frightening Facts of Pet Theft | Modern Dog magazine
> 
> Dognapped! Pooch Thefts Are on the Rise, Animal Advocates Say : People.com Mobile
> 
> Dog Thefts Are Way Up -- Do You Know How to Protect Your Pet? | Fox News
> 
> Dognappings: organised gangs behind a surge of dog thefts across the country - Telegraph


Age plays a big role... As does breed... As does ease of access..

I believe your dogs are highly trained. Protection trained at that.
I highly doubt ANYONE in their right mind would jump your fence...
To steal your highly driven barking, adult dog, watching its own property.

If you read those articles... You will find it mostly happens out of home.
It happens mostly to pooches and chauhau's...
It happens mostly to puppies who can be re-sold...

Then there are dog-fighting rings... But they mostly look for badly fenced/free roaming dogs.
Again... They give easy bait to build the drive to kill in their pits... 

Again I doubt they would go through the absolute fuss of jumping a secure gate.. Lift the dog over the gate... Who might be viscious... Probably chipped... (They would have to remove the body, or chip to cover their tracks....)


There is no real coherency with this forum based on adult GSD's...

I would never leave a young puppy unattended in the yard.


----------



## Lykoz

Saphire said:


> How do you prevent your dog from jumping over your fence?
> 
> Not all dogs are happily contained in a yard. Northern breeds are rediculous escape artists, I used to have 4.
> 
> No need for caps, your scaring me. ��


Caps is my *BOLDED* text.
Sorry if its not convention. But its faster for me. And makes more sense than using code. 

jumping over the fence? Make it larger...
I dont know what a northern breed is. Is that Husky, malmalute etc.?

Look like anything there is a way. how far you need to go to act. is up to you...
You would need a lot more resources to keep a wolf in a yard...
But it can be done.

Its unsafe to use 'prongs' 'e-collars' too... If you dont use them properly.

A gate is the same concept. You provide a gate that the dog can not escape from.. That locks.. And is not easy access...
Its really not rocket-science.


----------



## SuperG

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> ....so really if anything, me buying my mom a crate for her birthday present is PREVENTING cruelty to animals. *sigh*



I suppose that is one possible rationalization of buying her a crate and the "benefit"....another would be...by buying her the crate you are promoting her to continue in her less than responsible choices to train the dog properly......Crating a dog because the owner has chosen not to be responsible with the dog's training is a very poor defense for the benefits of a crate.


SuperG


----------



## SuperG

Lykoz said:


> So I will not accept anyone telling me it is 'dangerous' to keep dogs outside free in a fenced yard.
> It is not.. It never has been. And it wont ever be.
> 
> Things happen... But its NOT the NORM!


Our experiences dictate our opinions many times....your experiences have shaped your opinion. Your experiences are not a reflection of the rest of the world. However, I respect your opinion as it agrees with your experience and in your particular situation.

SuperG


----------



## llombardo

Lykoz said:


> Well the poll is ridiculous to me...
> 
> You assume everyone keeps dogs in crates for at least 4-5 hours during day.
> 
> You want a real indication, you cant ignore the people whose dogs will never spend so long in a crate during the day.
> 
> For all of you saying anything can happen in a fenced yard...
> Please wake up and smell the coffee.
> Dont use false justification excuses. If you dont have a yard, and that is your solution, thats fine.
> But I dont want to hear people saying 'its dangerous'... There is NOTHING dangerous about it.
> There is more danger in taking your dog for a walk or a hike off leash. Should we not do that either? The dog could be poisoned...
> 
> Its not the Zombie apolcalypse... Dogs are fine...
> You are all assuming its not safe to justify keeping a dog in a crate for 8 hours during the day... Which is ridiculous IMO..
> The only arguement I can understand, is based, maybe on 'training', but not on health and safety!
> I would rather walk through a high crime area for 8 hours than be locked in a crate for 8 hours daily.
> 
> I try not judge people keeping dogs in crates for 8 hours at a time...
> But please people... Dont give your opinions about a dog being in a fenced yard being unsafe...
> Thats ridiculous. In the 8 dogs me and family have had over the years, nothing has happened to ANY of them..
> Its a very UNLIKELY for something to happen.
> Dogs are not as vulnerable as you think. There is more chance of the dog dying from being forced to be sedentary for 8 hours every day... and another 8 hours everynight... (Total of 16 hours)...
> 
> Then they spend most of the rest of the day in the house... Made to 'behave' and sit anyways...
> That is the hallmarks of what we call a DANGEROUSLY LACK OF EXERCISE...
> Even if you walk the dog for two hours every day.. Which is often unrealistic.
> 
> So I will not accept anyone telling me it is 'dangerous' to keep dogs outside free in a fenced yard.
> It is not.. It never has been. And it wont ever be.
> 
> Things happen... But its NOT the NORM!



I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion and whether you accept it or not is on you. I know of dogs that have escaped, I know of dogs that escaped and were killed, I know of dogs that were poisoned, I know of dogs that ate something and got sick, I know of dogs that have gotten into spats with wildlife, I know of dogs that bit a person while in their own yard and the dog suffered. So while it might not be the norm for you, it is a reality here and while you think it's not dangerous I say it is. To each their own. 

Where I live dogs are stolen all the time for bait dogs. 

Why don't you tell the owner of this 7 month old GSD that was stolen for dog fighting then decapitated? No it's not dangerous...

Pit Bull Attacks and Dogfighting in Illinois: Sep 03, 2011 Owner of decapitated dog hopes to save other pets


----------



## David Winners

Lykoz said:


> Age plays a big role... As does breed... As does ease of access..
> 
> I believe your dogs are highly trained. Protection trained at that.
> I highly doubt ANYONE in their right mind would jump your fence...
> To steal your highly driven barking, adult dog, watching its own property.
> 
> If you read those articles... You will find it mostly happens out of home.
> It happens mostly to pooches and chauhau's...
> It happens mostly to puppies who can be re-sold...
> 
> Then there are dog-fighting rings... But they mostly look for badly fenced/free roaming dogs.
> Again... They give easy bait to build the drive to kill in their pits...
> 
> Again I doubt they would go through the absolute fuss of jumping a secure gate.. Lift the dog over the gate... Who might be viscious... Probably chipped... (They would have to remove the body, or chip to cover their tracks....)
> 
> 
> There is no real coherency with this forum based on adult GSD's...
> 
> I would never leave a young puppy unattended in the yard.


I'm not referring to my yard or my dogs. I would never leave Fama in the back yard unsupervised. She can go over a 6' fence in about 2 seconds, and she loves to chase squirrels. 

3 kids jumped my fence a couple weeks ago to take a short cut to their house. If Fama was in the yard, it might not have ended well for them. I stopped them and talked to them about it so they probably won't be doing it again, but it could have been bad.

I think you are underestimating the lengths to which some people will go to steal something and are overestimating the propensity for most adult GSDs to protect themselves and their property.

Absolute fuss of jumping a gate and lifting a dog over... You're talking 30 seconds of work. Most dogs will be right there at the gate. Most dogs will bark a bit, get confused, and then come check you out.


----------



## Lykoz

llombardo said:


> I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion and whether you accept it or not is on you. I know of dogs that have escaped, I know of dogs that escaped and were killed, I know of dogs that were poisoned, I know of dogs that ate something and got sick, I know of dogs that have gotten into spats with wildlife, I know of dogs that bit a person while in their own yard and the dog suffered. So while it might not be the norm for you, it is a reality here and while you think it's not dangerous I say it is. To each their own.


Its the reality everywhere...
Because people don't act responsibly.

I can just as easily say many dogs died of dehydration in their crates, because somebody forgot to take them out or give them water. 

There are studies in the thousands what SERIOUS EFFECT spending 3/4th of your daily life in a crate... 

People MOVEMENT is IMPERATIVE!
Your dogs are sedetary....
Most humans are sedetary!!!!

Imagine being forced to lie down for 18 hours every day?
18 hours people!!!!!!!!

Then you come home... Play a bit with the dog... Go for a short walk...
That does not meet the minimum daily exercise requirements of a 60-70 year old man...

I am sorry.
You people are just justyfing each others behaviour.

I dont want to go on the offensive with the way people use crates.
I am trying to defend that a yard is not dangerous.

But if I need to make people realise what 18 HOURS in a SEDENTARY POSITION really means... I will...
NONE OF THOSE DOGS are getting the minimum exercise...

You move more in your office, typing on a computer, and getting your coffee... Than a dog moves in a crate.

Then you go home... And what... The dogs must sit and behave whilst you watch TV?
Or do you not do anything other than walking your 10 dogs?


----------



## llombardo

Lykoz said:


> Its the reality everywhere...
> Because people don't act responsibly.
> 
> I can just as easily say many dogs died of dehydration in their crates, because somebody forgot to take them out or give them water.
> 
> There are studies in the thousands what SERIOUS EFFECT spending 3/4th of your daily life in a crate...
> 
> People MOVEMENT is IMPERATIVE!
> Your dogs are sedetary....
> Most humans are sedetary!!!!
> 
> Imagine being forced to lie down for 18 hours every day?
> 18 hours people!!!!!!!!
> 
> Then you come home... Play a bit with the dog... Go for a short walk...
> That does not meet the minimum daily exercise requirements of a 60-70 year old man...
> 
> I am sorry.
> You people are just justyfing each others behaviour.
> 
> I dont want to go on the offensive with the way people use crates.
> I am trying to defend that a yard is not dangerous.
> 
> But if I need to make people realise what 18 HOURS in a SEDENTARY POSITION really means... I will...
> NONE OF THOSE DOGS are getting the minimum exercise...
> 
> You move more in your office, typing on a computer, and getting your coffee... Than a dog moves in a crate.
> 
> Then you go home... And what... The dogs must sit and behave whilst you watch TV?
> Or do you not do anything other than walking your 10 dogs?


Then leave the dog inside the home not crated.


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> I'm not referring to my yard or my dogs. I would never leave Fama in the back yard unsupervised. She can go over a 6' fence in about 2 seconds, and she loves to chase squirrels.
> 
> 3 kids jumped my fence a couple weeks ago to take a short cut to their house. If Fama was in the yard, it might not have ended well for them. I stopped them and talked to them about it so they probably won't be doing it again, but it could have been bad.
> 
> I think you are underestimating the lengths to which some people will go to steal something and are overestimating the propensity for most adult GSDs to protect themselves and their property.
> 
> Absolute fuss of jumping a gate and lifting a dog over... You're talking 30 seconds of work. Most dogs will be right there at the gate. Most dogs will bark a bit, get confused, and then come check you out.


The kids jumping the yard is the only real worry... to get a ball... I have done it in the past many times as a kid...

Never got bitten by a dog. Also if you have an appropriate sized gate. It takes at least a 15 year old to do that..
Why not walk around? Probably much easier to get into your property..

Signage.. A barking dog.. Most people will go around.
If your dog was in your yard... Good chance that would have never happened.

This is a thread of 'what if's'....

I am telling you that living in one of the most high crime rate countries in the world for over 20 years... Never had an issue.
If anything they protected the property and my self, just by their 'presence' in deterring such criminality.

Also would love to see people jump this fence... Had the exact same fence in SA, in one of houses I grew up in.









How far you take it... And how paranoid you are of the dog getting stolen... Or if you have an agressive dog.. etc..

Thats up to the individual.
The risks are SO EXAGGERATED on this forum...

But I can guarantee you... No matter how paranoid you may be.. There are solutions.

How far someone will go, is a different issue.

Completely possible to have a dog outside and be completely safe.

Look at these wallings/fences: (A bit of an SA tourhttps://www.google.com/maps/@-26.15...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1Y5fEZkNQ8qejxHUw5RjLQ!2e0

And more:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-26.18...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sIgXTOj72tn6UIMPkYgtOuw!2e0

You could do a lot less...
But please.. Dangerous for the dog?
Please dong generalise...


----------



## David Winners

Lykoz said:


> Its the reality everywhere...
> Because people don't act responsibly.
> 
> I can just as easily say many dogs died of dehydration in their crates, because somebody forgot to take them out or give them water.
> 
> There are studies in the thousands what SERIOUS EFFECT spending 3/4th of your daily life in a crate...
> 
> People MOVEMENT is IMPERATIVE!
> Your dogs are sedetary....
> Most humans are sedetary!!!!
> 
> Imagine being forced to lie down for 18 hours every day?
> 18 hours people!!!!!!!!
> 
> Then you come home... Play a bit with the dog... Go for a short walk...
> That does not meet the minimum daily exercise requirements of a 60-70 year old man...
> 
> I am sorry.
> You people are just justyfing each others behaviour.
> 
> I dont want to go on the offensive with the way people use crates.
> I am trying to defend that a yard is not dangerous.
> 
> But if I need to make people realise what 18 HOURS in a SEDENTARY POSITION really means... I will...
> NONE OF THOSE DOGS are getting the minimum exercise...
> 
> You move more in your office, typing on a computer, and getting your coffee... Than a dog moves in a crate.
> 
> Then you go home... And what... The dogs must sit and behave whilst you watch TV?
> Or do you not do anything other than walking your 10 dogs?


You are making all sorts of assumptions about owners here. Yes, spending 18 hours created and then 6 hours in a down stay is horrible. No one does that.


----------



## SuperG

Lykoz said:


> THAT IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FENCE PROPERLY!
> 
> You want to fence your dog in a yard?
> FREAKING MAKE IT UNPENETRABLE FOR THE DOGGIE...
> They are not wolves or escape artists.
> They want to be in the yard anyways.
> 
> .



Now this is good advice....however I have seen an escape artist or two. And now I get to bore you with a story regarding an escape artist. A wonderful friend of mine lived in a rather remote area out in the woods and had 2 Malamutes...giant dogs 150 and 175 lb creatures. He made a very solid structure for them out of sheep fencing anchored into the ground and built it over 7-8 foot tall, it was large and had a shelter for the dogs in the enclosure as well. He made sure to put the shelter away from any of the perimeters so the dogs wouldn't use the shelter as a stepping stone to escape the pen. So, he tells me one of his dogs was loose and somehow managed to escape, I asked all the obvious questions and he shut me down on all of my guesses and concluded the dog climbed out over the top. I laughed at the notion of a 175 lb dog scaling the panels of sheep fencing...he didn't however. I happened to be up at his place the next day and he had the dogs penned as we hung out inside relaxing. I happened to be looking out the window and watched this jumbo Malamute climbing the fence paneling, it had to use all four of it's feet, off the ground, in the gaps of the paneling as it scaled the fence...it got to the top and kind of less than gracefully flopped over the top and was liberated...I would have never believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. So, we spent the rest of the afternoon putting a roof of sorts on the penned area and that solved the problem.....So, in regards to your " FREAKING MAKE IT UNPENETRABLE FOR THE DOGGIE.."....I completely agree....and once it is impenetrable I would then even make it more so....a bit of overkill isn't such a bad thing at times.


SuperG


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> You are making all sorts of assumptions about owners here. Yes, spending 18 hours created and then 6 hours in a down stay is horrible. No one does that.


18 hours... Shows in the votes.

As for the other 6 hours... A dog in house needs to behave..
A dog outside runs like a madman... Up and down all day.


----------



## David Winners

Or they go train, hike, do protection, tracking, Nosework, bikejoring...

Again, a lot of assumptions.

How much time do you think a K9 unit spends actually working every day, and how much time in a kennel or the back of a cruiser?


----------



## Jax08

My general rule of thumb is when the dog is mature enough to not eat my house, they can be left out of the crate for the day. Any dog crated is let out at lunch when my husband comes home. They can get water and be let out for their business then.

Seger has figured out how to let himself out of the crate and we often find the couch in disarray. We have one dog that has been crated for years while we are gone because she will randomly destroy things. And because that same dog is DA and will fight with my female shepherd. We prefer to not come home to blood.

The crates should be big enough for the dog to stretch. None of our dogs are crated at night.

Crates need to be used responsibly. For the most part, dogs just sleep when you aren't around to interact with. Is there really a difference between sleeping on the floor or in a crate? Not much. The most they do is get up, stretch and find a new position. Which is entirely possible if the crate is large enough.


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> Or they go train, hike, do protection, tracking, Nosework, bikejoring...
> 
> Again, a lot of assumptions.
> 
> How much time do you think a K9 unit spends actually working every day, and how much time in a kennel or the back of a cruiser?


You use prong collars and e-collars too right? Do you think you use them responsibly? I have heard dogs have Broken down completely with incorrect use... would that be correct? Or am I making things up..? Similar concept with building a proper wall/fence/enclosure.
If my dog ran out... It would be my fault.. Not the gate's fault... A good gate used responsibly is not the problem. It got built... It was either put up right or it was not.

Do you think a highly trained k9-unit is the norm?
Those dogs are on the field often.

A normal owner with a dog in the yard, during the day, that is also a house dog, is just as likely to engage the dog and take for walks as someone who crates for 16 hours.

We are talking all things equal.
If you have many, many dogs... You cant possible keep them crated 16 hours. And with 6 hours left in your day, work all of them.

Again my intention was never to make assumptions about kenneling...
But and a big but.... All things equal, it does not translate to happier, healthier, safer dog.
What prompted my response to engage here is the CRAZY dangers of keeping a dog in the yard during the day.


----------



## Stonevintage

It is so sad to think that in some areas people steal dogs for fighting. I decided 30 years ago that I did not want to live in a place where crimes like that can happen. The money was good and all my family is still there (San Diego) but I did not want to live like that. Our local news station at the time at the end of each broadcast posted what your odds of being murdered or the victim of a violent crime each night were.

My neighbors were 2 city police officers and 2 highway patrolmen. Of course, the officers wives routinely filled my head with horror stories. One had a GSD that barked one night. He got up to check it out and saw two guys trying to break into his car. He phoned the neighbors and 4 LE officers in pj's busted the thieves. We put the house up for sale and moved a month later. 

It seems to me that if someone is **** bent on stealing your dog, one crated and ready to quickly load would be a much easier target than one barking like crazy and running around a yard. Breaking in to a house has been known to be done by criminals that are there to steal. 

The area where I live has low crime. There are burglaries but done mostly by crack heads - they steal a few things and they're gone. Mostly from the high end homes (seasonal and vacant most of the year) located around the lake and in rural areas. This because by the time LE responds to the alarm, they are long gone. I listen to broadcastify sometimes and cannot believe the crime that residents of some cities live with.

One guy 3 days ago (placer gold miner from Montana) was at a local restaurant up the street from my house and someone stole a bag from the back of his pickup. It contained 4 pounds of gold nuggets. Idiot. Even my town is not that safe, though many still do not bother with locking their doors at night.


----------



## Lykoz

Jax08 said:


> Crates need to be used responsibly. For the most part, dogs just sleep when you aren't around to interact with. Is there really a difference between sleeping on the floor or in a crate? Not much. The most they do is get up, stretch and find a new position. Which is entirely possible if the crate is large enough.


Not true. They sleep.. because they cant do anything else in a crate..

Dogs interact with their surroundings. To smells. To sounds. They chase birds...
They run up and down... They play with each other.

You dont know this because you have never had outside dogs obviously.

My old Shettie/collie as a youngster.. actually made almost a 25cm deep track, running similar routes over the same grass route... (Garden was split for pool with gates...) So when it was open the dog would always run the same routes up and down, to bypass the in house gates. He run up and down those routes, all day..

The dog even used to kill birds sometimes and leave them at door when I got home...

A whole lot of activity, when I was not around...
I get that the highly trained dogs on this forum cant have this luxury.
But no it is not normal behaviour, for a dog to just sit. and maybe stretch when we are not around... Or to just sleep...
They are highly alert. And they move! They Run... They jump...


----------



## Jax08

When are you going to stop making assumptions about others lives? Just curious since you never once get an assumption you make correct, at least about me. Or do you just choose to be rude and arrogant?

But isn't it awesome that I don't need your approval for the choices I make to keep my dogs safe and well cared for?!:wild:

I'm going out to play now with my poor, neglected, crated dog. Carry on.



Lykoz said:


> Not true.
> 
> Dogs interact with their surroundings. To smells. To sounds. They chase birds...
> They run up and down... They play with each other.
> 
> *You dont know this because you have never had outside dogs obviously.*
> 
> My old Shettie/collie as a youngster.. actually made almost a 20cm deep track, running similar routes over the same grass route... (Garden was split for pool with gates...) So when it was open the dog would always run the same routes up and down, to bypass the in house gates. He run up and down those routes, all day..
> 
> The dog even used to kill birds sometimes and leave them at door when I got home...
> 
> A whole lot of activity, when I was not around...
> *I get that the highly trained dogs on this forum cant have this luxury.*
> But no it is not normal behaviour, for a dog to just sit. and maybe stretch when we are not around... Or to just sleep...
> They are highly alert. And they move! They Run... They jump...


----------



## Lykoz

Jax08 said:


> When are you going to stop making assumptions about others lives? Just curious since you never once get an assumption you make correct, at least about me. Or do you just choose to be rude and arrogant?
> 
> But isn't it awesome that I don't need your approval for the choices I make to keep my dogs safe and well cared for?!:wild:
> 
> I'm going out to play now with my poor, neglected, crated dog. Carry on.


Ill stop making assumptions when you stop making silly statements...

Dogs just sleep and maybe stretch when we are not around?
By what logic could you even dream up such a thing?...


----------



## SuperG

My doggy in my absence creates wonderful abstract "nose art" drawings on the front window......


SuperG


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I've recorded sailor and captain on hidden camera. They both do nothing while I am gone. Just sleep in the house.


----------



## Lykoz

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I've recorded sailor and captain on hidden camera. They both do nothing while I am gone. Just sleep in the house.


Nothing interesting happening in the house I guess.
They are just bored.

Not to mention I doubt you watched an 8 hour video..
Your dogs sleep for 16 hours? Nice... Maybe he goes to bed late..

Imagine what would happen if a little bird, flew into the house..
Also your house trained rules are being respected by the dogs.

A dog interacting with nature outside is wonderful.

I guess it does not do much for engagement.
But it is what it is.


----------



## Stonevintage

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I've recorded sailor and captain on hidden camera. They both do nothing while I am gone. Just sleep in the house.


What do you do with the dogs you board?


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I only take short stays for boarding with some exceptions. When I board, I try my best to not leave my house. I might leave for 15-20 minutes but that's about it. During that time they are crated. For the really long stays, I will crate them when I am away from the house but, I dont really work outside of the home so the most I would be gone would be a couple of hours and that is not everyday. Pretty much, I am home with them most of the time.

So lykoz, not sure if you were directing this at me but my dogs are not crated 16 hours a day. I don't have a job to go to so they get to stay with me all the time. I live in an area, well a whole city that has crime. I can't trust anyone with leaving my dogs out in the back yard when I am away. Anything bad could happen. So they stay in the house. Much safer. Dogs get stolen all the time here. Home invasions. People stealing stuff from back yards. I feel my dog has more of a chance if he is inside the house and someone breaks in because I have an alarm to alert people of something happening. If he was outside and someone just wanted to go in my back yard to steal something, there is no alarm to help protect or deter them. So anyway, for me, staying inside the house is safer, and much more humane.


----------



## David Winners

Lykoz, your entire argument is based on assumption and supposition, so it's pointless to have a discussion with you.

K9 units see the field often? 

Your house must be boring? 

Thousands of studies on crates being bad? 

You didn't watch a video of your dogs? 

You just make stuff up to support your opinion, and it shows your lack of experience.

Have a nice day.


----------



## llombardo

David Winners said:


> Lykoz, your entire argument is based on assumption and supposition, so it's pointless to have a discussion with you.
> 
> K9 units see the field often?
> 
> Your house must be boring?
> 
> Thousands of studies on crates being bad?
> 
> You didn't watch a video of your dogs?
> 
> You just make stuff up to support your opinion, and it shows your lack of experience.
> 
> Have a nice day.


:thumbup:


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> Lykoz, your entire argument is based on assumption and supposition, so it's pointless to have a discussion with you.
> 
> K9 units see the field often?
> 
> Your house must be boring?
> 
> Thousands of studies on crates being bad?
> 
> You didn't watch a video of your dogs?
> 
> You just make stuff up to support your opinion, and it shows your lack of experience.
> 
> Have a nice day.


I didnt say crates are bad, I have crates... My argument is that a dog in a yard is also not bad... Its all about management. If you followed the conversation from start you would see why I questioned crate use. It was a reciprocation of the absolute 'dangers' of a dog in the yard.

Everything in life has pro's and cons.

You are so engrained with the way you do things, you cant think out the box.
Unfortunately that is what a perfect soldier is supposed to do. Follow orders.
Your dogs are brought up in the same way. 

Crate training, simply put is a major part of obedience. 
You can justify that there are no negatives all you like.
A crate is a tool. So is a wall.
They can both be used correctly or incorrectly.

Neither is 'dangerous' if used responsibly.
How far everyone goes with it.. Is an individual decision.

Same way you dont like hearing Crate training may be 'abusive'... I dont like hearing my dogs are in danger because they are kept in a yard during the day.
There is no angling around the fact that 16 hours a day, in a prone position is 'all sunshine and butterflies', as some admit to doing here. Similarly there may be some risks of having a dog in a yard. We all do what we can afford. And the lifstyle we live with out dogs. Its all a balance. Either extreme is bad.

Overall I think the yard dogs are better off by a long shot in health, safety and well-being.
As for trainability... No comment.. You can tell me that. I wont argue. Ill probbaly agree and learn something at the same time.


----------



## llombardo

Lykoz said:


> I didnt say crates are bad, I have crates... My argument is that a dog in a yard is also not bad... Its all about management. If you followed the conversation from start you would see why I questioned crate use. It was a reciprocation of the absolute 'dangers' of a dog in the yard.
> 
> Everything in life has pro's and cons.
> 
> You are so engrained with the way you do things, you cant think out the box.
> Unfortunately that is what a perfect soldier is supposed to do. Follow orders.
> Your dogs are brought up in the same way.
> 
> Crate training, simply put is a major part of obedience.
> You can justify that there are no negatives all you like.
> A crate is a tool. So is a wall.
> They can both be used correctly or incorrectly.
> 
> Neither is 'dangerous' if used responsibly.
> How far everyone goes with it.. Is an individual decision.
> 
> Same way you dont like hearing Crate training may be 'abusive'... I dont like hearing my dogs are in danger because they are kept in a yard during the day.
> There is no angling around the fact that 16 hours a day, in a prone position is 'all sunshine and butterflies', as some admit to doing here.


Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black....


----------



## Stonevintage

This is from the Humane Society website.

Don't leave your dog in the crate too long. A dog that's crated day and night doesn't get enough exercise or human interaction and can become depressed or anxious. You may have to change your schedule, hire a pet sitter, or take your dog to a doggie daycare facility to reduce the amount of time he must spend in his crate every day.

Puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more that three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for that long. The same goes for adult dogs that are being house trained. Physically, they can hold it, but they don't know they're supposed to.

Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house. After that, it should be a place he goes voluntarily.


----------



## Jax08

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I've recorded sailor and captain on hidden camera. They both do nothing while I am gone. Just sleep in the house.


When I'm gone, my husband will tell me my dogs don't move much. As soon as I come thru the door, GAME ON. His dogs? Same thing. Sierra curls in a corner. Chaos sleeps. As soon as he walks thru in, they are racing to him. 

When we leave for work, Jax lays in front of the door and is still there when my husband comes home for lunch. When I'm home all day and doing things around the house, they are laying nearby.

The last dog I had that lived outside was my Collie. He would roam in the morning and come back to lay on the porch. At most any point, I would find him on the porch when I went outside. he's also the one that chased an Amish buggy and got a broken foot. 

IMO, dogs want interaction. Especially when they are raised to interact with their person. Regardless of level of training, or time crated, dogs still need time to just be dogs and play ball, go for walks or whatever they enjoy. As long as they are getting that time, they'll be just fine.


----------



## Jax08

SuperG said:


> My doggy in my absence creates wonderful abstract "nose art" drawings on the front window......
> 
> 
> SuperG


I have that! I haven't had a clean window in years!


----------



## Stonevintage

Stonevintage said:


> This is from the Humane Society website.
> 
> Don't leave your dog in the crate too long. A dog that's crated day and night doesn't get enough exercise or human interaction and can become depressed or anxious. You may have to change your schedule, hire a pet sitter, or take your dog to a doggie daycare facility to reduce the amount of time he must spend in his crate every day.
> 
> Puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more that three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for that long. The same goes for adult dogs that are being house trained. Physically, they can hold it, but they don't know they're supposed to.
> 
> Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house. After that, it should be a place he goes voluntarily.


This last sentence is key to me. Outside of the people who just don't care, I think that there are people who have not properly trained their dogs not to destroy things in the house while they are gone. That is a training responsibility and if they cannot accomplish it, they need to get some professional help. Don't just keep crating the dog year after year because his training is lacking.


----------



## Saphire

Stonevintage said:


> This is from the Humane Society website.
> 
> Don't leave your dog in the crate too long. A dog that's crated day and night doesn't get enough exercise or human interaction and can become depressed or anxious. You may have to change your schedule, hire a pet sitter, or take your dog to a doggie daycare facility to reduce the amount of time he must spend in his crate every day.
> 
> Puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more that three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for that long. The same goes for adult dogs that are being house trained. Physically, they can hold it, but they don't know they're supposed to.
> 
> Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house. After that, it should be a place he goes voluntarily.


Quote from OSPCA (Ontario Society for the Prevention of cruelty to animals) same as your Humane Society.

Ideally, every dog would live indoors as part of the family and use a fenced yard for play and exercise. But many dogs are left alone in backyards for extended periods and don't receive enough exercise or socialization. Leaving a dog unattended in a backyard is unsafe--he or she can be injured, stolen or harmed by intruders. Canine behaviorist John Wade says: "Leaving a dog alone in a yard is the most significant factor contributing towards aggression that dog owners have no control over."


----------



## WateryTart

It's a good thing I have you, Stone, to point out the error of my ways. I'm so grateful!

My trainers were sure wrong, weren't they. I'll call them and let them know. Today, in fact.

I will also begin shopping immediately for a second house for my dog so that we can commence PROPER training without her destroying the one I own now, and without her spending another minute in that horrible crate. It's a good thing you enlightened me while interest rates are still low. What would I do without you here??


----------



## Saphire

Lykoz said:


> You are so engrained with the way you do things, you cant think out the box.
> Unfortunately that is what a perfect soldier is supposed to do. Follow orders.
> Your dogs are brought up in the same way.


I try to respect that we all have different opinions as hard as that is at times. Many times I feel its how we write our responses that draws lines, myself included.

That comment above is a low blow and uncalled for and for myself who has not served my country or a soldier, is just off the chart the worst insult I've seen posted here. I feel compelled to apologize to David for you.......my deepest apologies for anyone that has that opinion of you.


----------



## Stonevintage

WateryTart said:


> It's a good thing I have you, Stone, to point out the error of my ways. I'm so grateful!
> 
> My trainers were sure wrong, weren't they. I'll call them and let them know. Today, in fact.
> 
> I will also begin shopping immediately for a second house for my dog so that we can commence PROPER training without her destroying the one I own now, and without her spending another minute in that horrible crate. It's a good thing you enlightened me while interest rates are still low. What would I do without you here??


You can discuss with your trainers the content of the Humane Society webpage. Why do you need to buy a new house to house train your dog?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Hey Lykoz can you please explain to me why my guys will go into open crates during the day with the crate door open and have a nap? Before you assume my home is boring I can promise you it's not. 

And while you at it, can someone else explain to me why it's considered safe to leave my dogs outside were any random Joe could take them, feed them poison, they could dig or bark or cause random mayhem while I am doing my thing?

Thanks.


----------



## Chip18

Saphire said:


> I try to respect that we all have different opinions as hard as that is at times. Many times I feel its how we write our responses that draws lines, myself included.
> 
> That comment above is a low blow and uncalled for and for myself who has not served my country or a soldier, is just off the chart the worst insult I've seen posted here. I feel compelled to apologize to David for you.......my deepest apologies for anyone that has that opinion of you.


Uh oh...I did not read it that way myself??

I'm sure it was not meant as an insult??

Maybe it's time to:


----------



## Saphire

I don't know how else you could take that Chip. Can't see outside the box because your a trained soldier? He is the perfect soldier because all he knows now is to take orders?

Perhaps I'm wrong....


----------



## David Winners

Thanks Saphire, but it's not necessary. Any offense on my part would require some modicum of respect for the person issuing the insult. 

Of course there is no level of understanding on his part, concerning being a soldier and what type of critical thinking is required, or in how I train dogs.


----------



## Sunflowers

Lykoz,

I want to know what you would suggest to those of us who have a homeowners association that dictates the height and type of fences we are allowed to have.

Some will only allow you a fence that is 4 feet tall.


----------



## Lykoz

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Hey Lykoz can you please explain to me why my guys will go into open crates during the day with the crate door open and have a nap? Before you assume my home is boring I can promise you it's not.
> 
> And while you at it, can someone else explain to me why it's considered safe to leave my dogs outside were any random Joe could take them, feed them poison, they could dig or bark or cause random mayhem while I am doing my thing?
> 
> Thanks.



Read my posts. Second part is explained.

My dogs also go into open crates to lie and sleep.
Its a choice.
Its also a routine.

The dog is conditioned that this is his life, and this is what he has to do.
He does not know anything else. 

Here is an experiment for you, since you like explaining things.....
Next time you leave your house. Leave your dog in an open crate in a fenced garden. 
See how long the dog choses to stay in the crate, despite very strong conditioning to perform that bahaviour.

How was this 75 year old man able to keep 2 slave daughters for close to 50 years?
Austrian man 'kept two mentally disabled daughters as sex slaves for 41 years' - Telegraph
Control the dogs life enough. And you can achieve close to anything.


----------



## Stonevintage

David Winners said:


> Thanks Saphire, but it's not necessary. Any offense on my part would require some modicum of respect for the person issuing the insult.
> 
> Of course there is no level of understanding on his part, concerning being a soldier and what type of critical thinking is required, or in how I train dogs.


Oh David, I have to laugh. I grew up in San Diego and was around military most of my life.

I've just been thinking, I have never been able to win an argument with a Marine or a Navy Seal. Whatever training they receive sure sticks for the rest of their lives that I can see. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that at all. I respect a person that is strong in their convictions when they have solid evidence to support their opinion. 

I have just made it a point, in my life in casual conversation never to take the bait if they want to debate something. They also have the ability to look at contradictory evidence and stand straight and tall and boldly deny it and that is amazing to me. They're not all right all of the time, but you sure couldn't tell by the way they act.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> This is from the Humane Society website.
> 
> Don't leave your dog in the crate too long. A dog that's crated day and night doesn't get enough exercise or human interaction and can become depressed or anxious. You may have to change your schedule, hire a pet sitter, or take your dog to a doggie daycare facility to reduce the amount of time he must spend in his crate every day.
> 
> Puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more that three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for that long. The same goes for adult dogs that are being house trained. Physically, they can hold it, but they don't know they're supposed to.
> 
> Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house. After that, it should be a place he goes voluntarily.


Leaving dogs in backyards(Humane Society)
Why Dogs Should Be Indoor Pets: Outdoor Risks, Solving Indoor Problems

Dogs like living indoors with their family. They are by nature pack animals, so keeping dogs outside denies them a place in the family pack. According to author and trainer Pat Miller, the reasons given for keeping dogs outdoors fall into two categories:

* Inappropriate dog behavior that can be managed and/or modified (example: 'the dog's not housetrained'), and

* People's preconceived notions, which can also be modified (example: 'dogs should be outside in the fresh air').

Certainly, dogs benefit from spending some time outside. But this time should consist of play sessions in the yard and walks around the neighborhood.

Problems that result from leaving dogs outdoors:

* Dogs kept outdoors are deprived of human companionship and have more trouble bonding with human family members. They have more trouble learning to interact properly with humans. And without adequate supervision and guidance from their owners, dogs can and will develop undesirable behaviors.

* Bored dogs left in yards often bark at every sound or movement to occupy themselves ... dig holes ... fence-fight with neighboring dogs and other animals ... chew and damage fencing, siding, decks and outdoor furnishings ... dig under fencing ... and climb or jump over fences. And when the owners do visit the dog in the yard, the dog is often out of control, having been starved of human companionship.

More risks:

* Escape from the yard, which can lead to being hit by a car, lost in the woods, hurt by people. Also: they can frighten and even bite people out of confusion.

* Taunting and cruelty from youths or adults on the other side of the fence.

* Theft.

* Poisoning.

* Neighbor complaints and threats; visits from animal control officers.

* Accidental release by a passerby, meter reader or service technician. And any resulting bites.

* Frustration from wanting to visit with passing dogs and humans, which can lead to barrier aggression, which fuels aggression towards other dogs and humans.

* Illness and chronic health problems from being out in hot, cold or wet weather.

* Sunburn or heatstroke.

* Flystrike on ears and other body parts, which can lead to open wounds and maggot infestation.

* Electrocution when digging up or chewing on wiring outside the house.

* Development of obsessive behaviors such as tail chasing, fly snapping and self-mutilation as a result of boredom and frustration.


----------



## Jax08

It's sad that we can't have a decent conversation on this board anymore. There used to be so much knowledge and actual discussion. Now it's just judgement and insults and condescending attitudes. Personally, in life in general, I've found the people that scream insults and judgements the loudest have usually experienced and done the least. Same people that blame others when their dog is accidentally let out of the yard or bites someone over a fence. Hard to take that seriously. 

No reason for anyone to get upset by someone else's opinion. That's all it really is...just an opinion. Unless you've lived in that persons house and know exactly all they've done, it's just an uneducated opinion.

So my boy has played ball and done some obedience training. My girl has dug in the mud and played frisbee. And I've gotten the fruit trees trimmed and the raspberries cut down for next years crop. Time to go to work now.

Everyone have a nice day!


----------



## David Winners

That's the nicest insult anyone has ever given me


----------



## Lykoz

Sunflowers said:


> Lykoz,
> 
> I want to know what you would suggest to those of us who have a homeowners association that dictates the height and type of fences we are allowed to have.
> 
> Some will only allow you a fence that is 4 feet tall.


People are failing to understand why I posted the way I did...

People were saying it is dangerous to have a dog outside in a fenced yard during the day.
I highlighted the other side of the arguement.
You can keep your dogs however you like.
Just wanted to point out, every management style has its issues.

Do it responsibly and its ok, whatever you chose to do.

Nothing wrong with crating a dog. Or keeping it inside. Do as you please. Nothing wrong with responsibly keeping a dog in a fenced yard either during the day.
But bashing something you cant do, and calling it unsafe, is unfair.


----------



## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> Lykoz,
> 
> I want to know what you would suggest to those of us who have a homeowners association that dictates the height and type of fences we are allowed to have.
> 
> Some will only allow you a fence that is 4 feet tall.


You tell them that you read on the Internet that the fence needs to be taller. If it's on the Internet it must be true...


----------



## Lykoz

David Winners said:


> That's the nicest insult anyone has ever given me


Was never an insult. I said perfect. A soldier that questions the political motives of his country and why he is there, can be a danger to his peers.
You protect your own at all costs. And do whatever the politicians ask of you.
Some would argue the armed forces you are opposing are doing the same. 

You on the other hand did insult me before I ever said that.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Lykoz said:


> .
> 
> You are so engrained with the way you do things, you cant think out the box.
> Unfortunately that is what a perfect soldier is supposed to do. Follow orders.
> Your dogs are brought up in the same way.



Wow Lykoz, that was so incredibly rude. You must be the master of underhanded compliments huh? You think you can just sneak by and say some garbage like that and no one is going to pick up on it. Let me guess, now you want to argue that it's true!! Soldiers are supposed to take orders! So what you said was a fact and not rude!? Hmmm maybe you will defend it some other way. I hate passive aggressive people and people who give out underhanded compliments to people who have said squat to you, and never instigated anything with you. Doesn't even make sense.myou are so incredibly rude. And that means a lot to me because I can be a rude sometimes when people are hassling me but come on, I never say crap about people who have served their country. 

And p.s. 

Your stupid, and I mean STUPID little video about how a man who enslaved mentally ill girls as sex slaves has NOTHING to do with dogs being kept in a crate. Good job on posting the most unhelpful, extreme case scenario, delusional piece of information you could because you think it correlates with crate training dogs. Please, like really... Stop, you are so rude, and if you really expect us to get our information on crate training dogs, or keeping them in crates from a video about a sex offender enslaving , mentally ill girls, you have really lost your darned mind.


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> It's sad that we can't have a decent conversation on this board anymore. There used to be so much knowledge and actual discussion. Now it's just judgement and insults and condescending attitudes. Personally, in life in general, I've found the people that scream insults and judgements the loudest have usually experienced and done the least. Same people that blame others when their dog is accidentally let out of the yard or bites someone over a fence. Hard to take that seriously.
> 
> No reason for anyone to get upset by someone else's opinion. That's all it really is...just an opinion. Unless you've lived in that persons house and know exactly all they've done, it's just an uneducated opinion.
> 
> So my boy has played ball and done some obedience training. My girl has dug in the mud and played frisbee. And I've gotten the fruit trees trimmed and the raspberries cut down for next years crop. Time to go to work now.
> 
> Everyone have a nice day!


Quick question on fruit trees..do they produce yearly of every other year? I have a peach tree, first year yummy peaches second year nothing


----------



## David Winners

Lykoz said:


> Was never an insult. I said perfect. A soldier that questions the political motives of his country and why he is there, can be a danger to his peers.
> You protect your own at all costs. And do whatever the politicians ask of you.
> Some would argue the armed forces you are opposing are doing the same.
> 
> You on the other hand did insult me before I ever said that.


Should have quoted. This wasn't in response to you.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

... Ugh


----------



## misslesleedavis1

llombardo said:


> You tell them that you read on the Internet that the fence needs to be taller. If it's on the Internet it must be true...


You buy a canary ! Because if you don't do your home owners due diligence then you are not worthy of pet ownership!! 
Oh ya.
???


----------



## Lykoz

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Wow Lykoz, that was so incredibly rude. You must be the master of underhanded compliments huh? You think you can just sneak by and say some garbage like that and no one is going to pick up on it. Let me guess, now you want to argue that it's true!! Soldiers are supposed to take orders! So what you said was a fact and not rude!? Hmmm maybe you will defend it some other way. I hate passive aggressive people and people who give out underhanded compliments to people who have said squat to you, and never instigated anything with you. Doesn't even make sense.myou are so incredibly rude. And that means a lot to me because I can be a rude sometimes when people are hassling me but come on, I never say crap about people who have served their country.
> 
> And p.s.
> 
> Your stupid, and I mean STUPID little video about how a man who enslaved mentally ill girls as sex slaves has NOTHING to do with dogs being kept in a crate. Good job on posting the most unhelpful, extreme case scenario, delusional piece of information you could because you think it correlates with crate training dogs. Please, like really... Stop, you are so rude, and if you really expect us to get our information on crate training dogs, or keeping them in crates from a video about a sex offender enslaving , mentally ill girls, you have really lost your darned mind.


Look I should have realised how controversial that post would be to an American Audience. 
I am not a fan of Patriotism or Nationalism. Albert Einstein shares that view.

As for the link.. I was asked why a dog willingly goes into a crate....
Many reasons.. Really not hard..
I can train a dog to go into a crate and stay there with something a lot of people use here.. (Not for crate training I guess.. but similar concept)
'boundary training with e-collars.... From another thread...'
Easy... Electricity... Electricity stops when it gets in...
Not hard huh? I could create a superstitious dog, that would NEVER LEAVE THE CRATE, EVER...

Ill bet you if i tried that I would get it right. 100% all the time... Pretty easy.
My dogs do go into crates by themselves to lie down... They go in to eat... It is a positive experience.. But its weighted up against even more positive experiences that exist outside.
But if I leave my door open.. And there is a dog outside... No way in eternity is it going to 'voluntarily' stay in his crate.
I was asked a silly question.. So I gave an obvious answer...
Create a positive experience in the crate as asociated with the rest of the world the dog knows...
And bam... The crate is his favourite place.
Easy...

Im not such a dictator. I like well trained dogs. 
But I don't need them to be unfathomably proofed.

The fact is people control all the variables of a dogs life... Similar to a slave in some training circles. We all do it to an extent.
Some more than others. Its all a matter of opinion.


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> Leaving dogs in backyards(Humane Society)
> Why Dogs Should Be Indoor Pets: Outdoor Risks, Solving Indoor Problems
> 
> Dogs like living indoors with their family. They are by nature pack animals, so keeping dogs outside denies them a place in the family pack. According to author and trainer Pat Miller, the reasons given for keeping dogs outdoors fall into two categories:
> 
> * Inappropriate dog behavior that can be managed and/or modified (example: 'the dog's not housetrained'), and
> 
> * People's preconceived notions, which can also be modified (example: 'dogs should be outside in the fresh air').
> 
> Certainly, dogs benefit from spending some time outside. But this time should consist of play sessions in the yard and walks around the neighborhood.
> 
> Problems that result from leaving dogs outdoors:
> 
> * Dogs kept outdoors are deprived of human companionship and have more trouble bonding with human family members. They have more trouble learning to interact properly with humans. And without adequate supervision and guidance from their owners, dogs can and will develop undesirable behaviors.
> 
> * Bored dogs left in yards often bark at every sound or movement to occupy themselves ... dig holes ... fence-fight with neighboring dogs and other animals ... chew and damage fencing, siding, decks and outdoor furnishings ... dig under fencing ... and climb or jump over fences. And when the owners do visit the dog in the yard, the dog is often out of control, having been starved of human companionship.
> 
> More risks:
> 
> * Escape from the yard, which can lead to being hit by a car, lost in the woods, hurt by people. Also: they can frighten and even bite people out of confusion.
> 
> * Taunting and cruelty from youths or adults on the other side of the fence.
> 
> * Theft.
> 
> * Poisoning.
> 
> * Neighbor complaints and threats; visits from animal control officers.
> 
> * Accidental release by a passerby, meter reader or service technician. And any resulting bites.
> 
> * Frustration from wanting to visit with passing dogs and humans, which can lead to barrier aggression, which fuels aggression towards other dogs and humans.
> 
> * Illness and chronic health problems from being out in hot, cold or wet weather.
> 
> * Sunburn or heatstroke.
> 
> * Flystrike on ears and other body parts, which can lead to open wounds and maggot infestation.
> 
> * Electrocution when digging up or chewing on wiring outside the house.
> 
> * Development of obsessive behaviors such as tail chasing, fly snapping and self-mutilation as a result of boredom and frustration.


I noticed that the title includes - solving indoor problems of which I see no mention. Does it say to crate for 8-9 hours per day as the quick, easy and healthy solution? Or does it offer tips to people on how to house train their dog? That would be useful, as for the rest - not my experience in the 45 years I've owned dogs.

Most of these articles are talking about dogs that are left in the backyard for more than 8 hours per day. Mine never were, they were in the house with me and weather permitting I have the back door open when I'm home so they can come or go as they choose. Mostly, they choose to be out until they are tired. This morning, Summer had a showdown with Mr. Squirrel, found an old toy she'd been missing, got a pet from a stranger walking by (with my permission - had her in the front yard for a while) Another big truck just pulled up in the alley and she wants go out again to see it. Lots of stuff she is fascinated with out there.


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> I have that! I haven't had a clean window in years!


I laughed when I read this. But I don't have them on the inside, I have nose prints on the outside. My dogs hate being outside without me and sit by the door waiting for me to let them in. At that time they decorate my door


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## Jax08

All of our windows are to high for outdoor window art.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> I noticed that the title includes - solving indoor problems of which I see no mention. Does it say to crate for 8-9 hours per day as the quick, easy and healthy solution? Or does it offer tips to people on how to house train their dog? That would be useful, as for the rest - not my experience in the 45 years I've owned dogs.
> 
> Most of these articles are talking about dogs that are left in the backyard for more than 8 hours per day. Mine never were, they were in the house with me and weather permitting I have the back door open when I'm home so they can come or go as they choose. Mostly, they choose to be out until they are tired. This morning, Summer had a showdown with Mr. Squirrel, found an old toy she'd been missing, got a pet from a stranger walking by (with my permission - had her in the front yard for a while) Another big truck just pulled up in the alley and she wants go out again to see it. Lots of stuff she is fascinated with out there.


This is what it says(the only issue would be holding pee longer then they can and adult dogs can hold their per for 8-10 hours)

Until the dog learns good house manners, confine him in a dog-safe room, puppy pen or crate inside the house when you're not there to supervise. Baby gates as well as doors can be used to control access to various parts of your house. Be sure to leave him several safe, interactive dog toys, such as a Kong toy stuffed with some treats and a little peanut butter or cream cheese. Make sure the dog has access to fresh water, especially when you're gone for a long period. When first using a crate, teach the dog that good things happen in the crate, and reward him when he displays calm behavior.

* Never use the crate for punishment, since that will cause the dog to develop a negative association with the crate. You can use the crate for a time-out, but keep things cheerful -- for example, if the dog gets revved up again after an exercise session ends, you might say 'Oops! Time out' and instruct him to go to the crate in a calm, upbeat voice. Miller suggests an indoor, portable tether as a good alternative to a crate for time-outs when you are home to watch the dog. A time-out should be a short, pleasant interlude for the dog.

* If you have to be gone from the home longer than the dog can hold his or her urine, arrange with a dog walking service or neighbor to take the dog out. Some people have taught dogs (usually small breeds) to use a box containing commercial dog litter or Astroturf that can be hosed off.

* Avoid leaving food, garbage and debris in areas that your dog can access. Clear off counters and put trash and garbage cans in closets, or use cans with tight-fitting lids.


----------



## SuperG

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I hate passive aggressive people and people who give out underhanded compliments to people who have said squat to you, and never instigated anything with you.


Wonderful example......as is my mentioning of it.


SuperG


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> This is what it says(the only issue would be holding pee longer then they can and adult dogs can hold their per for 8-10 hours)
> 
> Until the dog learns good house manners, confine him in a dog-safe room, puppy pen or crate inside the house when you're not there to supervise. Baby gates as well as doors can be used to control access to various parts of your house. Be sure to leave him several safe, interactive dog toys, such as a Kong toy stuffed with some treats and a little peanut butter or cream cheese. Make sure the dog has access to fresh water, especially when you're gone for a long period. When first using a crate, teach the dog that good things happen in the crate, and reward him when he displays calm behavior.
> 
> * Never use the crate for punishment, since that will cause the dog to develop a negative association with the crate. You can use the crate for a time-out, but keep things cheerful -- for example, if the dog gets revved up again after an exercise session ends, you might say 'Oops! Time out' and instruct him to go to the crate in a calm, upbeat voice. Miller suggests an indoor, portable tether as a good alternative to a crate for time-outs when you are home to watch the dog. A time-out should be a short, pleasant interlude for the dog.
> 
> * If you have to be gone from the home longer than the dog can hold his or her urine, arrange with a dog walking service or neighbor to take the dog out. Some people have taught dogs (usually small breeds) to use a box containing commercial dog litter or Astroturf that can be hosed off.
> 
> * Avoid leaving food, garbage and debris in areas that your dog can access. Clear off counters and put trash and garbage cans in closets, or use cans with tight-fitting lids.


It's hard to argue with their recommendations but to me, this article falls short like most of the others. The Humane Society statement "Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house" again, to me is key. The big hole I see is that there are no tips to converting your pup from crate to house freedom via training. Outside of the last sentence in the article, it doesn't go into it at all. I wish there was more information available to help people make the conversion.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> It's hard to argue with their recommendations but to me, this article falls short like most of the others. The Humane Society statement "Crate your dog only until you can trust him not to destroy the house" again, to me is key. The big hole I see is that there are no tips to converting your pup from crate to house freedom via training. Outside of the last sentence in the article, it doesn't go into it at all. I wish there was more information available to help people make the conversion.


It comes down to training and exercise. Even then not all dogs are ready at the same time. I can't even tell you how much training, exercising, and swimming my youngest golden gets and he will still destroy stuff. He isn't in a crate anymore but he is behind a gate for his own safety. If he decides to bust out of the room, he will be back in a crate. He might earn his freedom when he is 10 the way he is going.


----------



## WateryTart

Stonevintage said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing I have you, Stone, to point out the error of my ways. I'm so grateful!
> 
> My trainers were sure wrong, weren't they. I'll call them and let them know. Today, in fact.
> 
> I will also begin shopping immediately for a second house for my dog so that we can commence PROPER training without her destroying the one I own now, and without her spending another minute in that horrible crate. It's a good thing you enlightened me while interest rates are still low. What would I do without you here??
> 
> 
> 
> You can discuss with your trainers the content of the Humane Society webpage. Why do you need to buy a new house to house train your dog?
Click to expand...

I...never mind. Can't help you.


----------



## Jax08

:rofl:


----------



## Chip18

Jax08 said:


> It's sad that we can't have a decent conversation on this board anymore. There used to be so much knowledge and actual discussion. Now it's just judgement and insults and condescending attitudes. Personally, in life in general, I've found the people that scream insults and judgements the loudest have usually experienced and done the least. Same people that blame others when their dog is accidentally let out of the yard or bites someone over a fence. Hard to take that seriously.
> 
> No reason for anyone to get upset by someone else's opinion. That's all it really is...just an opinion. Unless you've lived in that persons house and know exactly all they've done, it's just an uneducated opinion.
> 
> So my boy has played ball and done some obedience training. My girl has dug in the mud and played frisbee. And I've gotten the fruit trees trimmed and the raspberries cut down for next years crop. Time to go to work now.
> 
> Everyone have a nice day!


Isn't it odd that the "Boxer" folks are the ones urging folks to be civil??

Just saying,.:hug:


----------



## Jax08

I'm actually a Collie person converted to a GSD person. Someday when I'm to old for a GSD, I'll have another Collie.


----------



## Nigel

llombardo said:


> I laughed when I read this. But I don't have them on the inside, I have nose prints on the outside. My dogs hate being outside without me and sit by the door waiting for me to let them in. At that time they decorate my door


Do you have straw covering your yard? Hard to tell with the nose art?


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## glowingtoadfly

Hey, be nice to David Winners. He has been volunteering his time to help admin the growl club Facebook group.


----------



## Stonevintage

This post has received 5,421 page views so far. That leads me to believe that there are people out there that have some questions. 

It would seem that people would want to help with suggestions on how to help an owner free a dog from 8+ hours in a crate. I don't think many would think that this situation is ideal for any dog. Can we try to help them out with training methods that have worked for us?

What brought success and how old was your pup when he "earned his freedom"? Did you hit a bump and can't get past it but are close to your pup "earning it's wings"?

The only suggestion I have and what has worked for me with my dogs are; Have plenty of chew toys on hand for the dog at all times - chewing helps ease anxiety and boredom. When house training my command is "mine" this is different from "leave it". "Mine" means the object is never to be touched by them, ever. When I catch them with something they shouldn't have I show it to them and say "mine" and redirect them to a chew toy and say "ok". I don't use the word "no" because it's non-specific and for my dogs, pretty much shuts down learning. Also, start slow with brief periods of absence and extend the time out.

That's all I have, does anyone else have any constructive suggestions that might help people? Can we make the extra effort exclude anything but helpful advise?


----------



## selzer

My dogs are generally kenneled outside, for the most part within a fenced yard when I am not home. I have crates for traveling in the Explorer, for sleeping it when very cold, and for putting dogs in to keep them safe when I am moving dogs around or cleaning their areas, mopping, etc. 

There is nothing in my house for them when I am not there. Outside, they can run around and they are all around their canine buddies, though most of them are kenneled separately for safety. 

I thought crates were cruel until my first GSD broke his leg being hit by a truck. Then I had to crate him 24/7 save twice out per day to potty, for eight weeks. Well, my super hyper working/pet line GSD did not mind the crate at all. Wow. This was the dog that ATE my couch one day. And every day would take everything not nailed down in my kitchen and drag it into the middle, into a big pile, chewing some stuff, and peeing and pooping, while I was at work. Every day I came home and exploded, because I thought crates were cruel. 

Then I resorted to chaining him outside while I was at work. This would have been ok, except that my are is very rainy and the rain turns the soil to mud when you have an active monster pup-dog dragging a cow chain back and forth over it. Which means bringing him in and bathing him before you can enjoy him at all. And pretty soon that doesn't happen, and then you have a dog on a chain 24/7. 

The dog got run over by a truck and I bought a crate. Since it was summer and no AC in the house, I crated him on the porch. That worked well. When the weather turned, I brought the crate inside and crated him inside when I was not home. When I was home, he was with me -- after the leg healed. 

That was the last dog I chained regular. I don't own a chain now. But when I was building the kennels, I tried to keep Jazzy, my brother's working line bitch on a chain that had a line back and forth from a tree in the front yard to my front door. I left her in the morning before work, and while I was driving it started to drizzle. 

Eight hours later, Holy Moses!!! It looked like something out of Animal Cops. The front yard was a mud pit. The dog was mud from her snout to her tail. Her legs were covered with solid mud. It was insane. I could just hear myself saying, "Really, this all happened in 9 hours." 

Yeah, I moved the trolly out back behind the shed where it was a little higher and dryer, and added wood chips until I could get the back yard fenced. I could not leave her and Arwen loose together in my house because they wanted to kill each other. Arwen was an escape artist and could not be crated when I was gone or she would bust her teeth getting out of a crate. She mutilated 5 separate crates of various types. 

Jazzy on the other hand broke my window three times, twice trying to get in to the house and once trying to get out after something in the yard. Went through the window. That dog was simply unsafe given the run of the house because she went THROUGH windows. 

Yay, had her for two years before my brother got himself situated and got her back. Thinking, she's long gone now, but my window is still boarded up, and my TV antenna that she chewed through has never been replaced. A crate would have been more humane, but I had to crate her at night while I slept, and I just didn't think it fair for her to be crated during the day too. 

So I built the kennels. Secure kennels within a fenced yard, can be the best bet if the neighborhood is good -- like, I live out in the country with county property and a river behind. I know my neighbors on the one side, and have only one other set of neighbors beside the Amish down the rode across the street and the farmers down the road across the street in the other direction, and both probably would thank me for keeping my animals on my property and not bothering their livestock and horses. 

I thought crates were the preferred way people kept dogs when they weren't able to be right with them, until the Cleveland cop threatened to arrest me for having my dog in a crate in my vehicle in 50 degree weather with the windows open for her safety. Uhg! He said that she could only be in that crate for 1 hour, and I could chain her in the back of the building, but she couldn't be in the crate. When I asked him if he could point out where in the law it says that, he threatened to arrest me have have the animal people come and take the dog. 

And, so, now I am back to wondering if people really do crate their dogs, LOL! Kennels allow dogs to drink and potty at will, to play with balls and toys, to rest on cots or lawn furniture, curl up in or on their house for a nap. They may be wet when you get home, but shouldn't be muddy if the kennel is on concrete, so they can easily come inside without having to give them a full bath and brush. And a kennel can be pretty much dog-proofed which is hard to do with a yard or house in its entirety.


----------



## llombardo

Nigel said:


> Do you have straw covering your yard? Hard to tell with the nose art?


Yes I have straw covering the yard. That is why I leave the nose art, I don't have to look at the straw


----------



## Saphire

selzer said:


> My dogs are generally kenneled outside, for the most part within a fenced yard when I am not home. I have crates for traveling in the Explorer, for sleeping it when very cold, and for putting dogs in to keep them safe when I am moving dogs around or cleaning their areas, mopping, etc.
> 
> There is nothing in my house for them when I am not there. Outside, they can run around and they are all around their canine buddies, though most of them are kenneled separately for safety.
> 
> I thought crates were cruel until my first GSD broke his leg being hit by a truck. Then I had to crate him 24/7 save twice out per day to potty, for eight weeks. Well, my super hyper working/pet line GSD did not mind the crate at all. Wow. This was the dog that ATE my couch one day. And every day would take everything not nailed down in my kitchen and drag it into the middle, into a big pile, chewing some stuff, and peeing and pooping, while I was at work. Every day I came home and exploded, because I thought crates were cruel.
> 
> Then I resorted to chaining him outside while I was at work. This would have been ok, except that my are is very rainy and the rain turns the soil to mud when you have an active monster pup-dog dragging a cow chain back and forth over it. Which means bringing him in and bathing him before you can enjoy him at all. And pretty soon that doesn't happen, and then you have a dog on a chain 24/7.
> 
> The dog got run over by a truck and I bought a crate. Since it was summer and no AC in the house, I crated him on the porch. That worked well. When the weather turned, I brought the crate inside and crated him inside when I was not home. When I was home, he was with me -- after the leg healed.
> 
> That was the last dog I chained regular. I don't own a chain now. But when I was building the kennels, I tried to keep Jazzy, my brother's working line bitch on a chain that had a line back and forth from a tree in the front yard to my front door. I left her in the morning before work, and while I was driving it started to drizzle.
> 
> Eight hours later, Holy Moses!!! It looked like something out of Animal Cops. The front yard was a mud pit. The dog was mud from her snout to her tail. Her legs were covered with solid mud. It was insane. I could just hear myself saying, "Really, this all happened in 9 hours."
> 
> Yeah, I moved the trolly out back behind the shed where it was a little higher and dryer, and added wood chips until I could get the back yard fenced. I could not leave her and Arwen loose together in my house because they wanted to kill each other. Arwen was an escape artist and could not be crated when I was gone or she would bust her teeth getting out of a crate. She mutilated 5 separate crates of various types.
> 
> Jazzy on the other hand broke my window three times, twice trying to get in to the house and once trying to get out after something in the yard. Went through the window. That dog was simply unsafe given the run of the house because she went THROUGH windows.
> 
> Yay, had her for two years before my brother got himself situated and got her back. Thinking, she's long gone now, but my window is still boarded up, and my TV antenna that she chewed through has never been replaced. A crate would have been more humane, but I had to crate her at night while I slept, and I just didn't think it fair for her to be crated during the day too.
> 
> So I built the kennels. Secure kennels within a fenced yard, can be the best bet if the neighborhood is good -- like, I live out in the country with county property and a river behind. I know my neighbors on the one side, and have only one other set of neighbors beside the Amish down the rode across the street and the farmers down the road across the street in the other direction, and both probably would thank me for keeping my animals on my property and not bothering their livestock and horses.
> 
> I thought crates were the preferred way people kept dogs when they weren't able to be right with them, until the Cleveland cop threatened to arrest me for having my dog in a crate in my vehicle in 50 degree weather with the windows open for her safety. Uhg! He said that she could only be in that crate for 1 hour, and I could chain her in the back of the building, but she couldn't be in the crate. When I asked him if he could point out where in the law it says that, he threatened to arrest me have have the animal people come and take the dog.
> 
> And, so, now I am back to wondering if people really do crate their dogs, LOL! Kennels allow dogs to drink and potty at will, to play with balls and toys, to rest on cots or lawn furniture, curl up in or on their house for a nap. They may be wet when you get home, but shouldn't be muddy if the kennel is on concrete, so they can easily come inside without having to give them a full bath and brush. And a kennel can be pretty much dog-proofed which is hard to do with a yard or house in its entirety.


I too had a beautiful kennel system years ago when I lived in the middle of nowhere. I don't trust my neighbour's in town.
Now I'm just considering getting a Canary.


----------



## Nigel

llombardo said:


> Yes I have straw covering the yard. That is why I leave the nose art, I don't have to look at the straw


I had to give in and do the same thing, with 4 dogs our grass in back is long gone!


----------



## igottabecrazy

Indie has 5x5 kennel in the basement complete with a television. Probably going to buy 2 more panels to go to 5x10 soon. She hangs out there about 8 hours a day during the school year. Not much at all when the kids are on break. She is still a stinker at 2 so I won't leave her out unsupervised for more than an hour. She entertains herself by harassing the cats. They usually start it. I am not worried about her hurting the cats, more about the potential for property damage and injury.


----------



## llombardo

Nigel said:


> I had to give in and do the same thing, with 4 dogs our grass in back is long gone!


I'm having my landscaper come out next Saturday to go over a plan. I'm going with mostly stone and just leaving some grass for using the washroom. I'm making the dog run bigger so that Batman has more of his own space with whatever dog he is getting along well with that day. I might get adventurous and go with a couple different stones


----------



## Lykoz

An interesting piece on the activity levels of wolf.
This is an indication of the 'natural' activity dogs were at some point evolved from. I think it ties in on the sedentary lifestyles we often accept as 'sufficient'.

None of us get close to any of these figures. Makes you think.


*"The life of a wolf is largely occupied with walking. Wolves are tremendous walkers. Day after day, wolves commonly walk for eight hours a day, averaging five miles per hour. They commonly travel thirty miles a day, and may walk 4,000 miles a year.

Wolves living in packs walk for two basic reasons - to capture food and to defend their territories. Isle Royale wolf territories average about 75 square miles. This is small compared to some wolf populations, where territories can be as large as 500 square miles. To patrol and defend even a small territory, involves a never-ending amount of walking. Week after week, wolves cover the same trails. It must seem very ordinary.

The average North American human walks two to three miles per day. A fit human walks at least five miles/day" *

Source: All About Wolves | The Wolves and Moose of Isle Royale

Not saying dogs are wolves.. Just something to consider.
The minimum activity level for a dog imo should not be less than a human. Dogs like to patrol their territory. Even if it's a small garden.


----------



## Lykoz

Lykoz said:


> An interesting piece on the activity levels of wolf.
> This is an indication of the 'natural' activity dogs were at some point evolved from. I think it ties in on the sedentary lifestyles we often accept as 'sufficient'.
> 
> None of us get close to any of these figures. Makes you think.
> 
> 
> *"The life of a wolf is largely occupied with walking. Wolves are tremendous walkers. Day after day, wolves commonly walk for eight hours a day, averaging five miles per hour. They commonly travel thirty miles a day, and may walk 4,000 miles a year.
> 
> Wolves living in packs walk for two basic reasons - to capture food and to defend their territories. Isle Royale wolf territories average about 75 square miles. This is small compared to some wolf populations, where territories can be as large as 500 square miles. To patrol and defend even a small territory, involves a never-ending amount of walking. Week after week, wolves cover the same trails. It must seem very ordinary.
> 
> The average North American human walks two to three miles per day. A fit human walks at least five miles/day" *
> 
> Source: All About Wolves | The Wolves and Moose of Isle Royale
> 
> Not saying dogs are wolves.. Just something to consider.
> The minimum activity level for a dog imo should not be less than a human. Dogs like to patrol their territory. Even if it's a small garden.


The funny thing... Is what I was trying to find in my search was how many hours do wolves sleep or have 'downtime'... I was thinking out my personal box, to try find more support for crates. I always try search AGAINST my conceived notions. Eg. I know lions spend large portions of their days sleeping and immobile, especially after feeding and the hunt. Crocodiles barely move AT ALL during the day. They bake in the sun and save energy expenditure, so thier meal 'lasts'. Does not seem to be the case with the wolf.

Dont get me wrong. If I did not have a yard, I would act differently. I would still own dogs. 
Everyone does the best they can. And for their own reasons. Nothing wrong with that.
Just know different ways of thinking also have logic behind them.
Dont get stuck into 'collective systems' of thought.
I try absorb everything I can. My decisions and thinking will change over time, and that is a positive in my book.

The most efficient trainers who achieve the most, need as much absolute control over their dogs lives to succeed... For them a kid at a gate harrasing their dog whilst they are not there, and getting a bit of a'reactive' dog is something they see as 'bad management'.. They dont want to deal with that, as unlikely as that may be, they dont want to ever take that chance. They dont want to risk their reputation, by giving advice or having a dog that is not responding to their training methods because of 'outside influence'.
The question is how much are we willing to enslave our dogs, just to achieve those superior infinitely closer to infallible training management.

But hey.. Might as well never let your human kids not do anything outside your supervision. Everything 'positive' or 'negative' will be in your 'control' (Or we like to think so).

To add further to this... Achieving the max indication here is not only possible.. But it will have decreasing utility, or benefit.
However the lower mobility levels (Just running up and down a yard from time to time, as opposed to being completely sedentary) Will have a huge utility of added benefit.


----------



## Jax08

Dogs are not wolves. Look up the average sleep time for dogs.


----------



## Lykoz

Jax08 said:


> Dogs are not wolves. Look up the average sleep time for dogs.


It's funny how many top trainers/owners often refer to wolves to back their training or feeding choice regiments. 
However often say dogs are not wolves when it does not suite them, or considering exercise requirements. (The all positives against day crating altogether are the only ones who consistently downplay the influence of the wolf)

Wolves have more downtime if food is plentiful or they made a kill.
They have more downtime when they are starving.

But they still get incredible amounts of activity in no matter how you look at it.
To conclude, of course dogs are not wolves 

The English bulldog is also not a wolf.
I'm sure that dog has so much natural downtime that weather it's in a crate or out it makes no difference. But I bet the funny thing is a bulldog might not need to be crated at all to not do damage in most cases. (Could be wrong).
But be careful what you wish for. That is also an example of a breed with the shortest lifespans and most health defects. 
Did you even know they are more prone to hip dysphasia than the gsd?

Everything in context.
It's all a balancing game.

There is no right or wrong.
Just knowing that everything has a consequence.

So when people highlight the dangers of a dog in a yard. Please take a minute to think of the dangers of it not been afforded that.


----------



## Jax08

jesus...never mind. It's ok if you aren't capable of finding the answer to how long dogs sleep to prove the point you were trying to make or unable to make the connection to why my statement is relevant.


----------



## llombardo

If you feed a wolf and it doesn't have to hunt, it is not going to travel much. It would be content to just sit back and relax. 

If a dog is trained and not destructive in the house or outside, chances are that they will sleep in either place when not engaged with their owners. 

If they are destructive they will be destructive in or outside.

My dogs want to be wherever I am and when I'm not here the safest place for them is inside, whether it's in a crate, behind a gate, or on the couch. 

On two occasions now I have left two different dogs outside on accident. Robyn the female GSD was over night. My other dogs gave me signs she was out there I now realize. She didn't bark at all, I found her on the morning sleeping by the door looking rather sad. She flew in the house. The second time was my oldest golden a couple weeks ago. He barks if he if out there for 30 minutes, so I'm sure he wasn't quiet. It's been two weeks and he still won't go back outside unless I'm with him or by the door. He no longer takes his time when I call him to come in. After his time outside he slept until the next day. 

IMO leaving a dog outside is a method used by those that don't trust their dogs inside, which would be a lack of training. After being outside all day I'm sure they are easy to handle after the owner comes home from working all day. They are knocked out from the air and most likely just slept all day if they didn't cause any trouble.


----------



## Lykoz

Jax08 said:


> jesus...never mind. It's ok if you aren't capable of finding the answer to how long dogs sleep to prove the point you were trying to make.


I didn't even look...

It's an impossible statistic to find. Crated dogs sleep more. Different breeds have different activity levels... Age of dog.. Conditioned training.. Outside stimuli..
Wolf is brilliant for this because there is no human influence. The influence they do have however is they actively have to hunt for food.

I think some point in the future I am going to get a reliable fitness tracker to monitor the steps my dogs makes during my time away from home whilst others would be taking 0 steps in a crate, to drive this home.

My yard is small. I wish I had done that in SA.


----------



## llombardo

Lykoz said:


> I didn't even look...
> 
> It's an impossible statistic to find. Crated dogs sleep more. Different breeds have different activity levels... Age of dog.. Conditioned training.. Outside stimuli..
> Wolf is brilliant for this because there is no human influence. The influence they do have however is they actively have to hunt for food.
> 
> I think some point in the future I am going to get a reliable fitness tracker to monitor the steps my dogs makes during my time away from home whilst others would be taking 0 steps in a crate, to drive this home.
> 
> My yard is small. I wish I had done that in SA.



I bet you will be surprised at how your dog doesn't move as much as you think. Seriously why would the dog move? To dig? To run the fence line barking? To chase a squirrel? To hunt? What is out there that would make them move if it wasn't to be disruptive or destructive? They might walk around in the beginning and that gets boring real quick, so they either get into trouble or sleep. There is no in between if you think about it.


----------



## Lykoz

llombardo said:


> If you feed a wolf and it doesn't have to hunt, it is not going to travel much. It would be content to just sit back and relax.
> 
> If a dog is trained and not destructive in the house or outside, chances are that they will sleep in either place when not engaged with their owners.
> 
> If they are destructive they will be destructive in or outside.
> 
> My dogs want to be wherever I am and when I'm not here the safest place for them is inside, whether it's in a crate, behind a gate, or on the couch.
> 
> On two occasions now I have left two different dogs outside on accident. Robyn the female GSD was over night. My other dogs gave me signs she was out there I now realize. She didn't bark at all, I found her on the morning sleeping by the door looking rather sad. She flew in the house. The second time was my oldest golden a couple weeks ago. He barks if he if out there for 30 minutes, so I'm sure he wasn't quiet. It's been two weeks and he still won't go back outside unless I'm with him or by the door. He no longer takes his time when I call him to come in. After his time outside he slept until the next day.
> 
> IMO leaving a dog outside is a method used by those that don't trust their dogs inside, which would be a lack of training. After being outside all day I'm sure they are easy to handle after the owner comes home from working all day. They are knocked out from the air and most likely just slept all day if they didn't cause any trouble.


You don't even trust your dogs to interact with each other alone...
And you telling me Its only because I don't trust my dogs to be left inside alone?

Many people who crate do it for the very same reason.

I would love you to leave all your dogs inside, uncrated and then post a picture of the house after, and weather the dogs all made it ok.

Some people/ dogs, pull it off...

But it's not fail safe proven. 
I'm sure those people have had 'those days' when the dog went through the garbage or ate up furniture..
Most of those people dog proof the house quite a bit, or have restricted access to the the dog in house.

Also all the stories I hear about domesticated wolves being escape artists and digging holes to escape every fence fathomable... Dog/wolf hybrids included...
I am sure they are all starving to death and not being fed daily..


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## Jax08

Lisa - Don't feed into it. He just wants to argue with irrelevant information and abstract ideas and throw out insults. Just put him on ignore and move on


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## llombardo

Lykoz said:


> You don't even trust your dogs to interact with each other alone...
> And you telling me Its only because I don't trust my dogs to be left inside alone?
> 
> Many people who crate do it for the very same reason.
> 
> I would love you to leave all your dogs inside, uncrated and then post a picture of the house after, and weather the dogs all made it ok.
> 
> Some people/ dogs, pull it off...
> 
> But it's not fail safe proven.
> I'm sure those people have had 'those days' when the dog went through the garbage or ate up furniture..
> Most of those people dog proof the house quite a bit, or have restricted access to the the dog in house.
> 
> Also all the stories I hear about domesticated wolves being escape artists and digging holes to escape every fence fathomable... Dog/wolf hybrids included...
> I am sure they are all starving to death and not being fed daily..



I have 7 dogs that are mine. *Five* of those are left out daily without a crate and all are out when I am home and at night Without issue. One is behind a gate and one is in the crate. The only reason the two aren't out is that they stand a chance to get into stuff that could be dangerous for them. And every now and then I leave them out to see if they are ready. They remain out of the crate until they get into something. They get into more trouble outside as a group then they ever do inside. 

Do you trust your dogs to be inside alone? What happens if you do leave them alone in the house? Do you even know?


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## llombardo

This is what my deprived dogs do all day because they don't live outside during the day...I might be biased, but they all look pretty happy, content, and alive..pretty good for not trusting them to interact with one another? I trust my dogs and have a great pack.


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## dogfaeries

llombardo said:


> I'm having my landscaper come out next Saturday to go over a plan. I'm going with mostly stone and just leaving some grass for using the washroom. I'm making the dog run bigger so that Batman has more of his own space with whatever dog he is getting along well with that day. I might get adventurous and go with a couple different stones


You have to share your plan! My yard is completely buried in straw right now since spring is here. Muddy yard + 3 GSDs + dog door to living room = unhappy me. 

I've kind of lost track what the argument is right now in this thread, lol. I use crates when dogs are puppies, to keep everyone safe. I use them when I am home, and when I'm at work. In fact, I'm in the position to take a puppy to work, because I'm a groomer. All four of my last puppies have grown up at the shop, and only got to stay home when they were past the chewing up my house stage. 

My three dogs are all home alone while I go to work. They have a dog door to a very secure dog yard. No one is going to steal them and they aren't going to escape. Nine times out of ten, this is what I come home to:


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## Jax08

I really like that table Diane. hmmm...I wonder if my husband can supersize it for a dining table


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## llombardo

dogfaeries said:


> You have to share your plan! My yard is completely buried in straw right now since spring is here. Muddy yard + 3 GSDs + dog door to living room = unhappy me.
> 
> I've kind of lost track what the argument is right now in this thread, lol. I use crates when dogs are puppies, to keep everyone safe. I use them when I am home, and when I'm at work. In fact, I'm in the position to take a puppy to work, because I'm a groomer. All four of my last puppies have grown up at the shop, and only got to stay home when they were past the chewing up my house stage.
> 
> My three dogs are all home alone while I go to work. They have a dog door to a very secure dog yard. No one is going to steal them and they aren't going to escape. Nine times out of ten, this is what I come home to:



Sweet picture I'm telling you I can have the door wide open and they are all inside, when I get up to go outside they all follow me. I have run small errands and left the door open and when I come home they are all inside too. I have a secure yard with locks on all gates and none of mine have ever attempted to dig under or go over the fence.

I'm considering a dog door once the yard is how I want it. I'm considering a pool and I have to figure out how to not get them to go in it. They all like swimming and they all could easily jump in the pool with or without proper access. 

I'm looking at a couple different stones and granites, maybe a couple bushes for peeing pleasure. A couple boulders even. I'm removing anything that they like to eat as of now. 

My yard is full of straw to. I hate the in between when grass is not there but might eventually be there.


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## dogfaeries

Mine don't have the run of the house when I'm gone. They are in the living room/kitchen/dining room area. I don't want or need big dogs on my fluffy white bedspread.

I have two crates set up in my dining room. The girls eat in their crates and Russell eats in the kitchen. I also have to use crates when I have a bitch in season. Crates are great when it's stormy outside - I put the dogs in a crate with a big raw knuckle bone, and everyone is happy.

This whole crate debate seems silly to me. A crate is just another tool. At my house it does double duty as a dog bed.


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## dogfaeries

Jax08 said:


> I really like that table Diane. hmmm...I wonder if my husband can supersize it for a dining table


thanks! I LOVE that table. It's a Heywood Wakefield cocktail table, and it SPINS.


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## Lykoz

But they also do this when they hear a sound or something happens outside. I would imagine they do the same, when I am gone.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0f00180p6qdavx/2015-03-29%2017.58.11.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0f00180p6qdavx/2015-03-29 17.58.11.mov?dl=0


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## Jax08

dogfaeries said:


> thanks! I LOVE that table. It's a Heywood Wakefield cocktail table, and it SPINS.


While spinning would make passing a dish easier, I'm thinking it may be a bit much to fun for a dinner table!


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## dogfaeries

I never really answered the "how long are your dogs crated" question. 

As puppies, basically they are crated all day when I'm working, BUT they are let out every 30 minutes because I am able to do that because I'm a groomer, and the puppy is at work with me. And because puppies are way more fun than working, they get played with a lot at work.
At home, they still go into their crates, if someone can't watch them every second. 

When they are older puppies, I start letting them sleep loose at night, no crate. I also have a dog door, and that means if the puppy has to pee, then they just let themselves outside. And they do. Russell started using that dog door when he was 10-11 weeks old, and has never had an accident in the house. If I close the dog door, he'll bang on it if he needs to go out. 

Bottom line, your dog shouldn't live in a crate. But as a puppy/young dog, most of them need to be confined for their own safety and the safety of all your belongings! And as adult dogs, there are many times you need to crate them.


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## dogfaeries

Jax08 said:


> While spinning would make passing a dish easier, I'm thinking it may be a bit much to fun for a dinner table!


You should see the dogs run around it! They'll brush up against it, and it twirls around. Pretty funny.


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## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> While spinning would make passing a dish easier, I'm thinking it may be a bit much to fun for a dinner table!


I would rather enjoy messing with people this way


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## Jax08

I like the lines. Simple and clean but not blah.


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## Lykoz

dogfaeries said:


> Mine don't have the run of the house when I'm gone. They are in the living room/kitchen/dining room area. I don't want or need big dogs on my fluffy white bedspread.
> 
> I have two crates set up in my dining room. The girls eat in their crates and Russell eats in the kitchen. I also have to use crates when I have a bitch in season. Crates are great when it's stormy outside - I put the dogs in a crate with a big raw knuckle bone, and everyone is happy.
> 
> This whole crate debate seems silly to me. A crate is just another tool. At my house it does double duty as a dog bed.


I do all of those things too.

My point of contention is just that leaving dogs outside in the yard when you are not home has its own set of benefits. 
People too often cite that as dangerous.


Unfortunately I became embroiled in an argument where I am not against crating. Just trying to highlight the pro's for a secure fenced, free roaming dog, when we are gone.

I hope I never have to get into this debate again. 

Dogs can be in crates responsibly, and they can be in a yard.
My dogs growing up, 8 in total, have survived the perils of being free to run in yards of varying sizes for over 20 years. The risk is overstated. In fact if done responsibly, there is close to no risk.

I took some risk in SA... Because I had them circle my car, as I opened the gate to get home. I found this to be invaluable for security reasons.
When I asked my breeder who was involved in Schh.. How I could train that, she gave me the cold shoulder. She told me it cant be done reliably, and a dog could run into the street... She would not even entertain speaking about it, and said she would not sell the dog. They did run out a bit in the start. (Was not at a busy street/ pedestrian walk way)...

But eventually they learned perfectly, and never did that.

I always find it strange how some protection circles, or at least Schh trainers think its okay to have active duty dogs, and bomb sniffing dogs... 

But it is 'irresponsible' for me to expect my dogs not to run out an open gate, when I enter my property. It was of huge value in SA, just having them circle the car. The piece of mind was great. In fact, I am not certain, but I think one day, a suspect car with I think 4 individuals tried to cut me into my gate whilst it was opening to hijack me... They even opened their doors, and almost got out. And as the dogs ran out to circle the car as they usually do, they changed their minds, got out of my back end.. (Where I could not reverse, or go forward... I was stuck) And just drove off.
Friend had a similar story... Where they saw them and were actually were armed with heavy duty firearms, and had second thoughts.

I dont expect my dogs to do that anymore however. I don't even have a drive in gate/electric gate.


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## dogfaeries

Jax08 said:


> I like the lines. Simple and clean but not blah.


It's mid-century modern, made in the 40's and 50's. I'm crazy about it. I'm glad none of the dogs tried to chew on it as puppies. I might have cried. (see how I tied this back into crating your puppy, lol?)


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## Jax08

Jax ate the lion paw off an antique table and Seger ate the corner of an end table that my husband made. Sneaking little buggers. I knew they were to quiet.


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## llombardo

dogfaeries said:


> It's mid-century modern, made in the 40's and 50's. I'm crazy about it. I'm glad none of the dogs tried to chew on it as puppies. I might have cried. (see how I tied this back into crating your puppy, lol?)


My first thought when I seen it is that Brennan would have a field day with it.


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## dogfaeries

Lykoz said:


> I do all of those things too.
> 
> My point of contention is just that leaving dogs outside in the yard when you are not home has its own set of benefits.
> People too often cite that as dangerous.



I do understand that some people live in areas that they don't feel comfortable leaving their dogs outside unattended. Whether it's the threat of a dog being stolen, or barking and driving the neighbors crazy, or escaping. On the other hand, I think some people go overboard the other way and are over the top protective. I don't have to live with those people, so... whatever. 

I have a dog door, so my dogs CAN go in and out. I got it years ago when my Doberman was unable to be home all day in the house without needing to pee. I put the dog door in, and my life became magical. I seriously couldn't function with dogs without that dog door.


----------



## Lykoz

dogfaeries said:


> I do understand that some people live in areas that they don't feel comfortable leaving their dogs outside unattended. Whether it's the threat of a dog being stolen, or barking and driving the neighbors crazy, or escaping. On the other hand, I think some people go overboard the other way and are over the top protective. I don't have to live with those people, so... whatever.
> 
> I have a dog door, so my dogs CAN go in and out. I got it years ago when my Doberman was unable to be home all day in the house without needing to pee. I put the dog door in, and my life became magical. I seriously couldn't function with dogs without that dog door.


I respect what everyone does here.

I actually respect them all as good owners, contrary to belief. Even DW, who constantly calls me inexperienced, clueless, and that he does not respect me. Even on topics, I do have experience on. He has gotten away several times and I allowed him to take over with his experience. I didnt argue. Just accepted what he was saying. But this is not one of those times. I have a solid grasp of what it is to keep a dog in a yard. This is not one of those times that I don't have personal experience, or suited to discuss activity levels. I pushed back this time. And I got drilled for it. Maybe, too hard, I don't know. Didnt think of the 'impact' what I said might have in the eyes of others. And possibly to the individual. (Even though he does not respect me) But it was not unprovoked.
But I like to call a spade a spade.

And I dont want to hear that a responsible owner that keeps his dog with all safety considerations in a yard is not safe.

Thats just a lie...
It might not be safe, with a specific dog, or a specific area, or with a specific walling, or if the house is opposite a busy road.. Etc. Etc. Etc..

But the crux of the arguement, like crating, and like prongs and e-collars.
You can do it responsibly or not. You can chose, or chose not to take certain risks.. With keeping a dog in a yard.. If you are enough of a perfectionist... There is close to 0 Danger at all....
If I had an incident, again, it would be my fault, not the tool. It would be my implementation of it.

I agree, peaceful is a good way to get along. If people dont challenge and tell people its never safe to keep your dog in a yard, I dont need to have a go at the other side. (I am actually part of the other side to to a lesser degree).

To each their own. Just know no approach is 'perfect' or 'adaptable' to everybody's needs/lifestyle.


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## Lykoz

We all try weight up everything, and give ourselves and dogs the 'best' in our opinion. That is a balance between health/lifestyle/freedoms/control/living in our human social world.. Etc.


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## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> If you feed a wolf and it doesn't have to hunt, it is not going to travel much. It would be content to just sit back and relax.
> 
> If a dog is trained and not destructive in the house or outside, chances are that they will sleep in either place when not engaged with their owners.
> 
> If they are destructive they will be destructive in or outside.
> 
> My dogs want to be wherever I am and when I'm not here the safest place for them is inside, whether it's in a crate, behind a gate, or on the couch.
> 
> On two occasions now I have left two different dogs outside on accident. Robyn the female GSD was over night. My other dogs gave me signs she was out there I now realize. She didn't bark at all, I found her on the morning sleeping by the door looking rather sad. She flew in the house. The second time was my oldest golden a couple weeks ago. He barks if he if out there for 30 minutes, so I'm sure he wasn't quiet. It's been two weeks and he still won't go back outside unless I'm with him or by the door. He no longer takes his time when I call him to come in. After his time outside he slept until the next day.
> 
> IMO leaving a dog outside is a method used by those that don't trust their dogs inside, which would be a lack of training. After being outside all day I'm sure they are easy to handle after the owner comes home from working all day. They are knocked out from the air and most likely just slept all day if they didn't cause any trouble.


Wolves aren't a great comparison. Aside from hunting, much of their travel is done marking and protecting their pack's boundaries. Wolf packs set up boundaries to protect their hunting territories and pups. Whoa be to the stray wolf or small pack that strays into a larger packs turf. It is certain death. Most territories are large in size requiring miles of travel every day to keep their scent posts (pee) fresh as warning markers. They also bury a large kill and mark it as "their property" to return to later. These behaviors are "built in" and in some hybrids it's very hard to keep them confined no matter how well they are fed. 

Wolves behavior when not denned up with pups or with an adequate food source territory will follow the herds for their food source, again, the ability and desire to travel many miles is beneficial to their survival. 

I don't think that domestic dog stray packs do this as their social order and natural instincts are not as well defined.


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## Stonevintage

Jax08 said:


> Jax ate the lion paw off an antique table and Seger ate the corner of an end table that my husband made. Sneaking little buggers. I knew they were to quiet.


It is when they're quiet you have to worry. They know! I use fireplace screens to protect a few things until Summer is completely house trained. This includes areas with electrical cords. Because they are tri fold, you can balance them so if a pup messes around in the area, they go down with a bang but won't hurt the pup. When she was much younger she bumped one and it fell down and made such a racket she won't go within 5 feet of them anymore. Same with things on the counter or table top. She jumped up and pawed a plate off the counter one time - so noisy - she hasn't tried since with any counter or table top.


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## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> I'm actually a Collie person converted to a GSD person. Someday when I'm to old for a GSD, I'll have another Collie.


Well, it might be your lucky day....my BIL needs to rehome his 6 year old male ...I thought I mentioned before...this Collie is the yin to my dog's yang. 

Mellow and gentle....and what the heck...you're never too old or young for a Collie.

He's in the front.


SuperG


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## SiegersMom

I grew up in the country..no fences, dogs ran free. Did not know anyone that fenced their dogs. You knew what houses you could get out of the car and go to the door without being eaten and what houses you waited for them to come to you. We had two dogs ran over. One did not make it, one did. That was just how it was done back then. Today I am much more safety concerned than we were when I was a kid growing up. I still live in the country but my dog does not free roam. He does however have a fenced area outdoors. Currently a kennel attached to the house with access to a garden porch but we are putting up a wire and rail fence so he will have a large day pen. He crated indoors until around 8-months now stays inside at night and when we are home. I feel in my area and our situation he is much better off having freedom. It is different for everyone but this works for us.


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## wick

Hmm there should be an option for less than four (nights not included) Depending on the day and my schedule I crate Wick at night and around 3-4 hours OR LESS. I do online school and am a stay at home girlfriend because my long term boyfriend travels for work. I only crate him when I am cleaning or when I leave the house because otherwise I can watch him vigilantly every second, while doing homework I let him sleep at my feet because he is usually tired enough from our walks, romps outside, and playing tug. I know he is a spoiled little cutie


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## wick

Lykoz said:


> I respect what everyone does here.
> 
> I actually respect them all as good owners, contrary to belief. Even DW, who constantly calls me inexperienced, clueless, and that he does not respect me. Even on topics, I do have experience on. He has gotten away several times and I allowed him to take over with his experience. I didnt argue. Just accepted what he was saying. But this is not one of those times. I have a solid grasp of what it is to keep a dog in a yard. This is not one of those times that I don't have personal experience, or suited to discuss activity levels. I pushed back this time. And I got drilled for it. Maybe, too hard, I don't know. Didnt think of the 'impact' what I said might have in the eyes of others. And possibly to the individual. (Even though he does not respect me) But it was not unprovoked.
> But I like to call a spade a spade.
> 
> And I dont want to hear that a responsible owner that keeps his dog with all safety considerations in a yard is not safe.
> 
> Thats just a lie...
> It might not be safe, with a specific dog, or a specific area, or with a specific walling, or if the house is opposite a busy road.. Etc. Etc. Etc..
> 
> But the crux of the arguement, like crating, and like prongs and e-collars.
> You can do it responsibly or not. You can chose, or chose not to take certain risks.. With keeping a dog in a yard.. If you are enough of a perfectionist... There is close to 0 Danger at all....
> If I had an incident, again, it would be my fault, not the tool. It would be my implementation of it.
> 
> I agree, peaceful is a good way to get along. If people dont challenge and tell people its never safe to keep your dog in a yard, I dont need to have a go at the other side. (I am actually part of the other side to to a lesser degree).
> 
> To each their own. Just know no approach is 'perfect' or 'adaptable' to everybody's needs/lifestyle.


I agree it is all about knowing your dog and being smart about it this is not a black and white subject. Our puppy can climb chain link fences already so that type is already our of the question!!! Luckily I find the wood paneled fences nicer anyways  Someday if he plays safe in the yard as an adult he will be allowed a doggy door but like you said I will just have to wait and see what he is like then


----------



## Jax08

SuperG said:


> Well, it might be your lucky day....my BIL needs to rehome his 6 year old male ...I thought I mentioned before...this Collie is the yin to my dog's yang.
> 
> Mellow and gentle....and what the heck...you're never too old or young for a Collie.
> 
> He's in the front.
> 
> 
> SuperG


:wub: Totally not fair!


----------



## Stonevintage

SiegersMom said:


> I grew up in the country..no fences, dogs ran free. Did not know anyone that fenced their dogs. You knew what houses you could get out of the car and go to the door without being eaten and what houses you waited for them to come to you. We had two dogs ran over. One did not make it, one did. That was just how it was done back then. Today I am much more safety concerned than we were when I was a kid growing up. I still live in the country but my dog does not free roam. He does however have a fenced area outdoors. Currently a kennel attached to the house with access to a garden porch but we are putting up a wire and rail fence so he will have a large day pen. He crated indoors until around 8-months now stays inside at night and when we are home. I feel in my area and our situation he is much better off having freedom. It is different for everyone but this works for us.


Same here. I want her to have freedom and where I live does not have the horrors of dog theft, poisonings etc.I have decided to get a kennel also just for practical purposes. She can have run of the large yard and house when I'm home but sometimes, I need to get stuff done and she wants to be out. A nice kennel in a shady area and a big dog bone - we'll, I think she'll like it.


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## selzer

Well, the night before last the wind was blowing so hard that I woke up with my front door wide open. The back is fenced, not the front, so had I any dogs loose in the house, they would be out the door chasing Amish horses or getting their paws or noses stuck in traps, or getting run over in the road, or being target practice for the guy next door with the elephant gun. 

Instead, everyone was safely kennels or in their baby-gated areas, and they live to see another snowy morning, and all the sunshine this afternoon.


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## ThorsonVonThorson

I would never crate a dog. It seems cruel to me. My dogs have always been well behaved and I trust them to have full run of the house when I'm not home. They need to be able to move around at will in order to protect our house as well as themselves in case of some sort of emergency... like a fire. But to those of you who do. To each their own I guess.


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## wyoung2153

ThorsonVonThorson said:


> I would never crate a dog. It seems cruel to me. My dogs have always been well behaved and I trust them to have full run of the house when I'm not home. They need to be able to move around at will in order to protect our house as well as themselves in case of some sort of emergency... like a fire. But to those of you who do. To each their own I guess.


There is quite a bit of benefit to crating your dog.. just on sheer safety in general. Do a little research on the subject.. without feelings involved.. honestly, not being argumentative or rude.. but I think you should take your feelings out of the equation and research it a little bit. My dog is very well behaved, crate trained and loves his crate when we need it. Happily goes in there, not screaming to get out.. but that's just me, and many others here..


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## bruiser

*Crates*

Bruiser loves his crate, it's like his bed. It is his save little cave although it is a pretty big he can stand and lay down in it stretched out. We travel a lot so he likes his home with him in motels. We also camp and although he prefers to be with me in the tent he likes his crate outside to lay in. I no longer use a hard crate I have a extra large soft crate we fold up when we travel. He could totally rip it to shreds if he wanted to or had to get out, although I no longer zip it closed unless I'm in a hotel room. Here is what I use, Bruiser has the biggest one. 

Amazon.com : ABO Gear Dog Digs Pet Crate, X-Large : Dog Digs Collapsable Crate : Pet Supplies


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## Lilie

ThorsonVonThorson said:


> I would never crate a dog. It seems cruel to me. My dogs have always been well behaved and I trust them to have full run of the house when I'm not home. They need to be able to move around at will in order to protect our house as well as themselves in case of some sort of emergency... like a fire. But to those of you who do. To each their own I guess.


I travel a lot with my dogs. Having them comfortable in a crate is very important to me as well as my dogs. 

I take one of my dogs to tracking events where there are many other dogs there. My dog will remain quiet and safe in his crate when we aren't working. He gets to relax and rest until we are called out to work again. 

I have several windows in my home that are just a foot off of the floor. I worry that if I left a dog loose in my house when I'm gone and someone comes up to my house (I live in the country) they may become overly stimulated and pounce right through the window. 

I am in a hurricane area - if we had to evacuate or (Lord forbid) we end up having to go to a shelter, my dogs wouldn't be allowed in the shelter unless they are crated. I know if that ever happened, my dogs would be quiet and comfortable in their crates. 

I think one very important reason for me, is in the event one of my dogs become ill and require an over night stay at the vet clinic, I know that being crated won't be something they'll stress over. 

Not crating your dog or crating a dog is a personal choice. There really isn't a right or wrong answer. But I assure you, crating a dog isn't inhumane or cruel. It would be, if you abused using the crate and left your dog in it 24/7.


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## Justin0406

*No more crate*

My dog graduated from the crate around 9-11 months. Prior to that he was crated 6 hrs before my wife arrived home. Full roam of the house since 12 months


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## Ryankappel

In the research I've done, dogs really like crates. They act as sort of a "Den" to them. They can go in, know they are safe in that little area. Obviously if your dog is supposed to be protecting your entire house then the crate would do no good; but if he is just supposed to be relaxing until you get home, crates are great for the dog. My dog Wolf loves his crate. I leave the door open if I'm home and at night he will sleep on my bed for a bit, then lay on the floor, then just walk into the crate and sleep in there for 2 or 3 hours. it's his little den. 

there is really no need to see it as cruel. A properly crate trained dog usually loves the crate.


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## Lilie

Ryankappel said:


> In the research I've done, dogs really like crates. They act as sort of a "Den" to them. They can go in, know they are safe in that little area.


My GSD hasn't need to be crated due to trust issues since he was a year old. But I still lock him up every night. If I don't, he thinks it's his job to watch me sleep.....2" from my face.


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## bruiser

Lilie said:


> My GSD hasn't need to be crated due to trust issues since he was a year old. But I still lock him up every night. If I don't, he thinks it's his job to watch me sleep.....2" from my face.


:laugh: Bruiser gives me kisses (licks in the face) periodically at night 

They are such lovers :wub:


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## Justin0406

Ryankappel, 
Justin is the same way... 20 min. on the bed, an 1hr on the floor and then he goes to his crate which remains open throughout the day. I placed a sheet over all of the open areas except the front to give him a den experience. Sometimes we look for him only to discover he's in his crate. He also has a 4'x8' kennel in the yard for outdoor alone time.


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## SuperG

Ryankappel said:


> In the research I've done, dogs really like crates. They act as sort of a "Den" to them. They can go in, know they are safe in that little area. Obviously if your dog is supposed to be protecting your entire house then the crate would do no good; but if he is just supposed to be relaxing until you get home, crates are great for the dog. My dog Wolf loves his crate. I leave the door open if I'm home and at night he will sleep on my bed for a bit, then lay on the floor, then just walk into the crate and sleep in there for 2 or 3 hours. it's his little den.
> 
> there is really no need to see it as cruel. A properly crate trained dog usually loves the crate.



Humans tend to rationalize their actions......you have done your rationalizing regarding the use of a crate...." In the research I've done, dogs really like crates." Others rationalize it differently hence they choose not to use a crate.

SuperG


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## wyoung2153

Titan has NEEDED a crate for years. But every time I set one up if we're watching another dog or for another reason, in he goes.. he just loves his little space.


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## Jenny720

Max is 8 months old and is crated about 4 hours a day 4 days during the week and one day on the weekend 6-8 hours. He is to young to roam and one day the crate was not shut right and he chewed the arm of our chair. We planned to get a kennel and put in the garage (heated for winter)to use instead of crate so he has more space until he can be trusted to have free range.


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## wyoung2153

wyoung2153 said:


> Titan has NEEDED a crate for years. But every time I set one up if we're watching another dog or for another reason, in he goes.. he just loves his little space.


Should have said hasn't**


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## selzer

I have crates so that if I am moving dogs around, no one bites or fights with another. So those dogs (3) are crated for an hour to an hour and a half while I am taking care of the others. They are perfectly fine with that. 

I had Moof in the other night. It's a little different waking up to a big hairy dog's mug in your face. LOL!


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## lorihd

my dog is crated at night, that is her bed and she loves to sleep in it. that said I have to crate her, so I can take out the parrots, have to rotate the animals.


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## Matt O

Should I crate my 7week old pup ? I work mon-fri. I have the holiday weekend off then I took off a week. Just to spend as much time as possible with the pup. He goes in the crate & sleeps. Although I don't shut it or lock it because e starts whining


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## corbalflag

my german shepherd is now 8 months old and i only leave my home here and there 2 or 3 hours at a time...when i come home (even after thinking i have puppy proofed) there is always something he destroyed...he is nuetered....i've never crated him...is it too late? how do i go about crating him so that he enjoys it when i'm gone to do errands?


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## wick

corbalflag said:


> my german shepherd is now 8 months old and i only leave my home here and there 2 or 3 hours at a time...when i come home (even after thinking i have puppy proofed) there is always something he destroyed...he is nuetered....i've never crated him...is it too late? how do i go about crating him so that he enjoys it when i'm gone to do errands?


Nope its never to late, fosters for rescues even crate train adult dogs that don't have good house ettiquite  google crate games, or search using the forums search tool to look up old threads that include crate games. For us the best thing has been three fold: tire him out first thing in the am, largest crate possible with a comfy bed, and a nice loud noisy fan/ ac to drown out the neughborhood noises. We keep the lights off with the crate covered with a light sheet and he naps the whole time, happy as a clam. Just make sure he is exercised and has pottied right before or they will be antsy to get out.


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## wick

Matt O said:


> Should I crate my 7week old pup ? I work mon-fri. I have the holiday weekend off then I took off a week. Just to spend as much time as possible with the pup. He goes in the crate & sleeps. Although I don't shut it or lock it because e starts whining


Hi  we live nearby in perry GA. I really recommend you crate your puppy while at work To keep it safe  they do whine for the first bit, but if you look up crate training on google you can find great directions for it! I love aspca's website theyhave very detailed instructions for many training issues/ commands including this. That's a really great start that he is already sleeping in it!


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## Jax08

corbalflag said:


> my german shepherd is now 8 months old and i only leave my home here and there 2 or 3 hours at a time...when i come home (even after thinking i have puppy proofed) there is always something he destroyed...he is nuetered....i've never crated him...is it too late? how do i go about crating him so that he enjoys it when i'm gone to do errands?


Buy the dvd Crate Games. It's well worth the money.


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## Jax08

Matt O said:


> Should I crate my 7week old pup ? I work mon-fri. I have the holiday weekend off then I took off a week. Just to spend as much time as possible with the pup. He goes in the crate & sleeps. Although I don't shut it or lock it because e starts whining


Yes, you should crate him. But a full work day without being let out to go the bathroom is a pretty long time for a 7 week old. Do you have anyone that can let him out? Or can you go home at lunch to do so?


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## Stonevintage

There is an alternative. If you have an area that is safe and free of anything that can be chewed on, you can block off that room to give more freedom. After all, the point of crating is to keep them safe and prevent damage to material objects.

I used my laundry room. Easy to block off. Easy to potty train and disinfect, and easy to train to "ask" to go out (back door there). I have trained 2 GSD pups this way in the last 15 years. No safety risk, easy to clean, no damage to household items. and I feel better knowing that they are not movement restricted as in a cage

Others will have different opinions, that's all good. It's just been my preference. Only suggesting it if you have the proper area in your house.


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## 115pounds

I have never crated any of my dogs and I never will...


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## Cassidy's Mom

115pounds said:


> I have never crated any of my dogs and I never will...


Have you gotten any of them as puppies? What did you do when you couldn't directly supervise them? I'm curious how you kept them from chewing things that could harm them or cause a blockage, and prevented them from peeing and pooping in the house when you were sleeping, or showering, or cooking and eating meals, or were at work. 

If I hadn't crate trained my dogs I couldn't bring them to hotels, or take nosework classes, or compete in dock diving, or race in flyball.


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## Bridget

My dogs are crate trained, but never in crates unless we take them somewhere like to a hotel, Dock Dogs. Never in crates at home.


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## dpc134

This must be the "new age" thing now, first it started when dogs moved inside the house, now dogs are being moved out of crates, soon they will be sleeping in our beds and we will all be crated...


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## 115pounds

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you gotten any of them as puppies? What did you do when you couldn't directly supervise them? I'm curious how you kept them from chewing things that could harm them or cause a blockage, and prevented them from peeing and pooping in the house when you were sleeping, or showering, or cooking and eating meals, or were at work.
> 
> If I hadn't crate trained my dogs I couldn't bring them to hotels, or take nosework classes, or compete in dock diving, or race in flyball.


My ex and kids watched then when I was working and yes he did chew some things, but I have always had a large box with a ton of things for my dogs to chew. It's funny because they all new where their toys were and were trained pretty early to get the toys from the box and they have all had their favorites. I also tried to puppy proof the house as good as I could. We have a room next to the kitchen with a low door that he could see us and yes he has pooped in the house. But I have been pretty lucky with house training all my GS, the old newspaper spankings seem to work and I believe it is the noise that does the trick.


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## amburger16

I remember getting a puppy as a kid and never using a crate.. even as a child I knew it was ****. I will never train another way again. Bear was crated daily up until a few days ago. Out of 3 days running free at 7 months for 6 hours a day he has ripped the rubber off the handle of a screwdriver. Completely my fault, I'm not even sure where he found it. So in 5 months he has destroyed a dust pan, a screwdriver handle and 2 empty pepsi boxes. If no crate, I can only imagine what my house would look like. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## NightingaleGSD

My girl is never in her crate unless she wants to be. Sometimes... On rare occasion we will catch her in there. Haha. So,etimes we put her in there if we need her out of the way when we are doing stuff in the house but other than that... She just kind of hangs out wherever.


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## MishkasMom

Never used a crate for any of my dogs but I had the luxury of working from home and keeping an eye on them when they were young, in the last 15 years only lost one shoe and one plant, lol.


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## Otakubenny

If your dog isn't destructive then I would experiment with leaving the crate open so that he has the option to walk around the house.


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## meli_ssa4

Exciting news both dogs are now out of their crates full time. YAY!! We were really worried with Darwin, but he has been great. It has been about 2 months now and nothing has happen. We started leaving him out at night at first so we were home in case he started getting destructive, then slowly allowed him to be out during the day when we weren't home. We did this over our 4 week vacation and by the time we went back to work he was all set. I think they play around a bit in the living room, but nothing has been moved/chewed/broke/etc.


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## Jackal

I crate for 6-8 hrs when my naughty nieces visit for the day. as they dont deserve to be near my dogs and are cruel to animals. 
I crate all night long when we are bush camping, so dogs cant bugger off hunting wildlife. So 8hrs. 
I crate whenever we have a party, to prevent scrounging of food. 
I use the same crate on the back of the truck. 
When i go to stay with folks, they sleep in crate. 

Basically, i dont crate train. Pups are taught by older dog, the crate is a really highly valued den, that the winner gets to sleep in each night. And every pup ive brought into the pack 'gets it' real fast. And all my dogs play that game i used to as a kid with telephone boxes, how many of us can we fit in the contained area.


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## zudnic

Mine is only crated at night for bedtime. 10pm until 8am. He's six months old now and sleeps through that time perfectly. 

Now if I left the house for work and they stayed at home. Id do one of these

Lucky Dog? European Style 6 x 10 x 10" Kennel with Cover and Frame

or at minimum this

Lucky Dog Uptown Welded Wire Box Kennel 6'H x 8'L x 4'W

Concrete isn't rocket science. For very little money the dog could be very comfortable and secure at home.


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## Mavi

*I agree*



Otakubenny said:


> If your dog isn't destructive then I would experiment with leaving the crate open so that he has the option to walk around the house.


I'm berg lucky...my girl is only 3.5 months and I so this with her and it works great. She is teething now and we found a chunk of wood she loves and chews like crazy makes a mess but a quick vacume I'm the morning and were golden. Better than her eating the furniture. Feel blessed


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## MythicMut

Mine is crated at night for sleep and for about 30/45 minutes after he eats so I can eat in peace. Also crated if I have to go out or on an errand. That's it except he has access to the crate if he wants to use it. He can open the door on his own to go in.


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## AaronG

Reading through this because I've been a little worried about this. I've always been home and never had to really crate a dog, ever, but I've always had a little more mellow of a breed. I'm glad to see there are people here who can let them have free roam of the house after they've earned trust.


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## 1stpuppy

I crate my dog in the morning when I go to work my husband works night and gets home when I leave so he sleeps 5 hours and the first week she was only 7 weeks old she did not like it she is now okay with it . She seems to only destroy with my husband. But she is not crate at night she has more open space and goes in and out of the crate as she feels.


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## Birbeck

7 Hours a day while at work, unfortunately. (Make up for this by having her out constantly, walking many hours, play, etc)
Had to purchase a massive solid steel cage and have wood cut to size for her. She has pretty severe separation anxiety, but seems to be getting better. Plan on installing a camera in the house to better monitor her (and everything else) when gone to discourage bad behavior/see what she's up to so she has more wiggle room.


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## LaRen616

Sinister was granted full freedom from his crate when he turned 2 years old.

Draven was granted full freedom from his crate a couple of months before his 2nd birthday.

So the crates are no longer in the house, they are in storage.


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## Ajax & Harper

I have never even owned a crate for either of my dogs, so my answer is 0. They have free roam all day. Yeah they get into trouble every now and then but it just gives me the opportunity to teach them and correct them - I find they learn faster this way.


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## Rendezvous_At_Midnight

Since I don't work and stay at home all day, the only time Rendezvous gets crated is during the night, for bedtime purposes. Once she starts getting older and more trustworthy she'll likely just be allowed to roam the house freely at night. Though until then we have a time schedule to let her out every so often even after we go to bed.


She's done incredible and not 1 accident in her crate what so ever! Even after an upset tummy episode the first half week we had her.


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## ruger123

Ruger is only crated when I go away somewhere that he isn't allowed, which isn't frequently. Maybe 4 hours a week, tops.


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## DogSupport

I never put dogs into crate. I only put them to a garden, so they can play.


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## Seth&Co

I don't use the crate anymore -- haven't since his molars came in. We have it in the garage in case we need it for some reason, but when he's home alone he gets to lounge on the sofa.


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## Bigwillt

When Leo was about 18 months, we tried him out one day and he did fine. Before then, he stayed in a crate 9-10 hours a day while we were at work.


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## KillRbee18

meli_ssa4 said:


> Just curious. Currently my dogs are in their crates from 7AM to 12PM, then from 1PM to 3PM. But we are going to have to switch and leave them for 9hours straight. So just curious of how long other people leave their dogs.


Meli_ssa4,
I tried leaving Titan in a crate for a couple of hours and he demolished it. So to answer your question, when the wife and I have to leave him home he has free range to the house and it's been great. In the past he would tear up the house; now he goes to his bed and lays down.


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## voodoolamb

Less then 5 hours a week on average. 

I haven't used the crate regularly since he was house trained and done teething.


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## crazyontrt

We are both shiftworkers, we have been working completely opposite shifts since we got our pup in April. So he's only crated for half and hour when we are leaving/coming home.


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## KillRbee18

If not trained properly there will be no wire crate that can hold them in; unless you weld one yourself with thicker wire guage. I once tried to hold him in one and locked him in our garage and he still managed to get in the house within the hour.


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## Gers4lyfe

No longer in the crate. When he was no longer than 4.5 hours

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk


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## InControlK9

I never really crated during the day mostly just at night about 5-6hrs


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## Agaribay805

I no longer crate on a regular basis because I dont feel like I need to. She is potty trained and doesnt chew things up anymore. I still have my crate set up in my room and use it occasionally for safety reasons. (When the babysitters come and we are gone, the gardeners, etc...)


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## 115pounds

*Never ever*

I have never put any of my dogs in crates. I feel it's like putting your dog in jail.. Being retired my dog is by my side 24-7. When I worked my dog/dogs had run of the house and they never did anything.. LOL, I never left food out and I have always put the garbage in the kitchen cabinet below the sink.


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## selzer

If you look on the crate as "jail" the dog will probably see it as a really negative thing. It doesn't have to be that way. 

All dogs should be accustomed to a crate, so if they ever need to spend time at a vet, they will not have more trouble just because of the unfamiliarity with a crate. 

A crate can be a very positive thing. I don't like to use absorbent materials in a puppy's crate, but for older dogs, there is no reason why there should not be a dog bed in there and the door standing open. A dog can have a special safe bone or chew toy that he gets only when crated. It can be a positive place and indicate it is time to relax/rest. 

All my dogs are accustomed to crates, and some will be crated when traveling. None of them are locked in a crate for anymore than an hour or two when I am moving other dogs around or working in kennels. 

Usually I crate Milla between 11:30 and 12:30 each day while I clean kennels and fill water buckets, etc. So about an hour. Last week or the week before, I forgot to put her out in her kennel. I got home at about 1:00 am, and took care of the parakeet and guinea pig before I went out to let Babs and Quinnie in, and saw Milla in the crate. I felt so bad, that was 13-14 hours she was locked away. I let her out, and the next day, she was perfectly fine going back in the crate while I did the morning work. This is a dog that is never crated, save maybe when it is cold, I will bring them in and crate them for the remainder of the night, they go right to sleep. 

Certainly kennels are nicer, they can run about, rest, sleep, eat, drink, and potty, while being safe from the many things they can manage to do that are dangerous, given the run of the house, unsupervised. But we shouldn't look at crates as evil or look down on people who use them regularly. Some dogs are fine from a young age, others are not and would be a danger to themselves if given too much freedom. We have to stop thinking about dogs as though they are people. They are not. Jail is not a concept they have, positive or negative. If your dog trusts you, and you do not clobber anything with a lot of negative feelings, your dog will be perfectly ok crated while you are at work or otherwise unable to supervise.


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## 115pounds

That is your opinion and in my opinion it is like putting your dog in jail!!! And that is that,, how would you like to be in a little tiny room? It could be positive for yo to, if your jailer was positive, ya. I am 65 years old and have had at least one GSD since I was 21 and I have never crated a one of them and I see absolutely no reason to. With the correct training they will do no damage to your home. I also had some punks try to break into my house and my dog bit the guy and the 2 of them ran off. Sure glad I didn't have him crated because who knows what these guys were up to. I don't want to start a fight but I am positive that their is more than one person who agrees with me and you should start a poll asking that.


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## girardid

Id like to see all the anti-crate people raise a working dog with out a crate. And "train" a 3 months high drive pup not to chew anything... please


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## lexiz

Luckily we only have to crate our dog for a couple of hours per day, if that. Since my older brother and I are both in graduate school, we live in the same house, and most of his classes are online. Vesper just hangs out with him, because some days I'm at school for the entire day. However, Vesper has had to be kenneled for 7 hours on a few occasions. 

Also, if we are going to be gone for only an hour or two, we just let Vesper have free reign over the house.


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## Bjax

115pounds said:


> That is your opinion and in my opinion it is like putting your dog in jail!!! And that is that,, how would you like to be in a little tiny room? It could be positive for yo to, if your jailer was positive, ya. I am 65 years old and have had at least one GSD since I was 21 and I have never crated a one of them and I see absolutely no reason to. With the correct training they will do no damage to your home. I also had some punks try to break into my house and my dog bit the guy and the 2 of them ran off. Sure glad I didn't have him crated because who knows what these guys were up to. I don't want to start a fight but I am positive that their is more than one person who agrees with me and you should start a poll asking that.


I don't think you understand what selzer is trying to say. My dog, Ajax is 11 months old and we haven't used his crate in months for confinement. He's earned his freedom. He's the perfect dog when his left alone in the house, no accidents, nothing chewed on. Even so we have kept the crate. Every couple days, I tell him "bed time" and he happily runs to his crate and I give him a treat. Sometimes I let him out immediately, other times I wait a little.

I also don't like the idea of confining him, but it doesn't matter if you or I think of the crate as jail. What I don't want is my dog thinking of the crate as jail. That's a very important distinction. There is going to be a situation outside of my control that necessitates him being confined, an example would be if he had to stay at the vet's, and when that situation occurs, I don't want him being stressed due to the crate or cage.


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## SuperG

I'm somewhat in 115pounds camp.....granted I used a very large enclosure outside with an access door to a dog house inside the garage for a very short time period.....but ultimately all of my dogs earned full access to the inside of the house when no one was home. 

I can appreciate the need for keeping dogs separated in multi-dog families at times.....but I've only had one dog at a time...I'm sure it makes things much easier.

I'm not positive about this...but the dog crate was "invented" in the 1960's.....so millions of people somehow managed to do without for quite some time.

I don't care one way or another what others do regarding crates......I just know what works for me and my dogs over the decades....plus....there's nothing like that warm greeting every time I open that front door upon my return.

SuperG


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## lalabug

how can you even tell if a person is a troll or not?? LOL


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## Sabis mom

Shadow is crated while I am at work. It is for her protection not because she is bad. 
She has proven that her curiousity will get her in trouble. She is the dog that climbs shelves to investigate shadows and reflections. 
I leave her loose for the hours that I am home and she does fine for a few minutes alone. She sleeps on my bed with me. I cannot think she is suffering. She likes her crate and will paw the door open to get in. 
If I expect to be late I have someone stop by and let her out to pee.
I have recently debated emptying the spare room out and leaving her loose in there with her toys. I am just worried about the window. She has already gone through one.


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## zetti

girardid said:


> Id like to see all the anti-crate people raise a working dog with out a crate. And "train" a 3 months high drive pup not to chew anything... please


My Czech (obviously WL) puppy has mega food drive, he learned the word "treats!" for crate. He can't hurl himself in there fast enough. He does a cute little happy dance spin in his way inside. He's done so well with his housebreaking and keeping his crate clean, he just graduated to his Big Boy Box--a Size 700 (Grate Dane size).

My eight year old girl has free run of the house, but I find her asleep in her crate all the time. Whenever she's not close to me, I know she's put herself in her crate.

I really don't remember how we raised puppies before crates. I started using one at a friend's recommendation in 1986. I don't remember before that. We do tend to block out traumatic experiences.


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## lytrefry

I usually crate two of my girls(puppies) during the day if I have to run out to the store or at night time.. so not very often(during day). Otherwise my three others have the run of the house all the time! 
I love the crates. It has saved my house and all of my things! Lol I can't imagine coming home with all of them out. Hopefully the younger ones will learn and can leave them out too. I'm sure it will happen in a few months. They love the crate and so do I! I had my three older ones crate trained when they were young. And sometimes I find them laying in the crate!! 
It's a safe and cozy place to take a nap :smile2:
Once dogs have learned enough manners to be let out of the house then I'll take away the crates!


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## lytrefry

I forgot to mention.
My first dog. We did not crate train her! She chewed through three floors, madehuges holes right to the wood. She also chewed dry wall to the insulation! She was bad! She chewed through cupboards to grt to the garbage.. learned my lesson after that! Crates are excellent!! And it is certainly.not a jail! They love it!


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## Sabis mom

zetti said:


> My Czech (obviously WL) puppy has mega food drive, he learned the word "treats!" for crate. He can't hurl himself in there fast enough. He does a cute little happy dance spin in his way inside. He's done so well with his housebreaking and keeping his crate clean, he just graduated to his Big Boy Box--a Size 700 (Grate Dane size).
> 
> My eight year old girl has free run of the house, but I find her asleep in her crate all the time. Whenever she's not close to me, I know she's put herself in her crate.
> 
> I really don't remember how we raised puppies before crates. I started using one at a friend's recommendation in 1986. I don't remember before that. We do tend to block out traumatic experiences.


That last line made me spit coffee through my nose! Lol. 
I did not bother with crates until I got a Great Dane. The list of things she ate and destroyed is long and a bit disturbing. It includes the crate.
I am fuzzy on the details but I remember sitting on the floor crying a lot. Lol.


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## dogfaeries

I've tried to take Russell's crate away from him several times, but it always results in a meltdown. He's convinced he can't eat without it. No matter what I try, he wants his crate back. So it sits in the dining room and the puppy uses it as her bed sometimes 

I think years ago we shut puppies up in the bathroom or the utility room with a gate usually. I've been using crates for 30 years. Every puppy I've had for the last 20 years has been raised at the grooming shop, in a Great Dane crate. Easy peasy.


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## Jenny720

We keep Luna in the crate a few hours during the day and at night. She is only 5 months old. When we brought her home she adjusted to the crate right away and in the car. Topper we has a crate which he will sleep in all day he can come and go as he pleases. When we leave the house Topper will gets locked in the crate. We also have a garage and the basement area if gone for long periods of time. As of now Max is the only one who has free reign in the house when we are gone.


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## Misha111

I got our first GSD 20 plus years ago. That girl could take out an electric socket faster than you could get a car down the drive. And trust me, I did climb out of a downstairs window and back the car down the slope without turning on the engine on when she was asleep in the hope she wouldn't notice. She did!! She was a year old when we got her and it took a lot of hard work and extensive remodelling of our house (by her!!) before she calmed down.
My second pup, funnily enough, was in a crate from day one. We could have stopped using the crate really early on with her but she got so stressed without it, that we kept it up all her life.
My current pup, we got at 5 months, she is a chewer but thanks to the crate, she is entertained by her nylabones and kongs when she is in there and I don't have to worry about leaving her. She is very happy to go into her crate.


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## WIBackpacker

SuperG said:


> *I can appreciate the need for keeping dogs separated in multi-dog families at times*.....but I've only had one dog at a time...I'm sure it makes things much easier.


^ That, is key.

If you are a multi-dog family, and you add in random "guest" dogs that you watch for friends and family, or foster, options for separation are absolutely needed.


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## selzer

I baby-gate more than I crate, which is kind of nice when I am there and when I am not because the dog doesn't need to break out. They can of course climb over the x-pen and the baby gate, and probably hang out watching videos all day in my living room, and when they hear the car in the drive, they hide the popcorn and scramble back over their respective baby gates. 

Well anyway, the Werewolf is a little over one and ready to have my room the bathroom and the hall at night. Or so I thought. I cannot just open her gate and let her have her area and the doggy door to the outside as well, or all my underwear would be outside on the melting snow every day. 

But if I close that gate, she can play with her toys, and come up to sleep with me. And that usually means I wake up with Skunky and Snakey, and Ducky, and Squirrel, and half a dozen of her other "pets." Yesterday I woke up with her soggy skunk and Squirrel, and my shoe! Who wants to sleep with a men's size 9.5 4E trainer that has been in service for over a year???

Ah well, we'll try again with my shoes up on a shelf. At least she did not molest the shoe in any way.


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## selzer

WIBackpacker said:


> ^ That, is key.
> 
> If you are a multi-dog family, and you add in random "guest" dogs that you watch for friends and family, or foster, options for separation are absolutely needed.


If you have multiple dogs or multiple bitches or both and you haven't nicked their nads, than you probably will need some manner of reliable separation. Sorry but throwing a towel at them from across the room, or using a bonker is not going to work when your little missie is flagging for your boy. And it certainly will not carry forward when you are not there to supervise. 

And if you have bitches that don't get along, your only alternative may be rehoming if you aren't willing to separating and you don't want one to kill the other when you are there or not there. 

I am not in favor of crating for hours on end. If the dog needs to be crated 10 hours/day when you are working and traveling to and from, and 6-8 hours at night while you are sleeping, you need to re-think your set up and make some changes.


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## dogfaeries

Scarlet (a little over 5 months old) sleeps loose at night. The lights are off, the big dogs go to sleep, and she does too. In the morning I find her either in Russell's crate, or the recliner. She goes to work with me, so she spends those days in a huge crate, but sleeps most of the time she's there. Someone always seems to be at home lately, so she's rarely crated there, unless everyone is going to be gone. 

Crates are a great tool, and every dog is different. Use accordingly!


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## WIBackpacker

Right. Or, you foster or do favors for friends. Leaving Unknown Guest Dog loose in the house with your own resident dogs while you go out for the evening could end badly.

A number of my friends are having babies at the moment, and our house has been jokingly referred to as the Dog Maternity Resort. Someone has to watch the canines while the humans are all gathered at the hospital. Crates are good.


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## zetti

Sabis mom said:


> That last line made me spit coffee through my nose! Lol.
> I did not bother with crates until I got a Great Dane. The list of things she ate and destroyed is long and a bit disturbing. It includes the crate.
> I am fuzzy on the details but I remember sitting on the floor crying a lot. Lol.


Ooohhh, I just love Danes! Do you have any pics?


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## zetti

lytrefry said:


> I forgot to mention.
> My first dog. We did not crate train her! She chewed through three floors, madehuges holes right to the wood. She also chewed dry wall to the insulation! She was bad! She chewed through cupboards to grt to the garbage.. learned my lesson after that! Crates are excellent!! And it is certainly.not a jail! They love it!


It gets really scary if you think about the things they *could* have chewed, like electrical cords. Raff took a huge interest in those when he was eight weeks old.

His breeder introduces her puppies to the crate and he shipped in one, so he took to it easily. Once I added the treats and his food in there, it became the world's most valuable real estate.


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## lytrefry

They really are life savers.. I've heard of a lot of puppies taking a liking to electrical wires..


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## zetti

115pounds said:


> That is your opinion and in my opinion it is like putting your dog in jail!!! And that is that,, how would you like to be in a little tiny room? It could be positive for yo to, if your jailer was positive, ya. I am 65 years old and have had at least one GSD since I was 21 and I have never crated a one of them and I see absolutely no reason to. With the correct training they will do no damage to your home. I also had some punks try to break into my house and my dog bit the guy and the 2 of them ran off. Sure glad I didn't have him crated because who knows what these guys were up to. I don't want to start a fight but I am positive that their is more than one person who agrees with me and you should start a poll asking that.


I'm sure I wouldn't like being crated. But then, I'm a human, not a direct descendant of the wolf, meant to seek out a den.

Crating feeds right into the dog's natural denning instinct. If you pay attention, you'll probably notice your dogs curling up in corners, under tables and other den like spaces

It's only when we insist on projecting human traits onto our dogs that we misread them badly. Often to the detriment of the dog.


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## zetti

lytrefry said:


> They really are life savers.. I've heard of a lot of puppies taking a liking to electrical wires..


Yup, my Raff thought they made fine tug toys.


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## lytrefry

zetti said:


> I'm sure I wouldn't like being crated. But then, I'm a human, not a direct descendant of the wolf, meant to seek out a den.
> 
> Crating feeds right into the dog's natural denning instinct. If you pay attention, you'll probably notice your dogs curling up in corners, under tables and other den like spaces
> 
> It's only when we insist on projecting human traits onto our dogs that we misread them badly. Often to the detriment of the dog.



Couldn't of said it better!


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## Nigel

I use to think crates were messed up, but I soon found their value. None of my previous dogs were crate trained. Our youngest Ollie loves his and uses it throughout the day his choice. He's also restricted activity while he heals up from his groin pull. Ranger our other male used one while he recovered from his acl tear and surgery. I don't know how you'd keep them from causing further damage while in recovery without containment.

Competing in close quarters venues would be a nightmare without a crate, we use soft crates for that.


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## Jack's Dad

zetti said:


> I'm sure I wouldn't like being crated. But then, I'm a human, not a direct descendant of the wolf, meant to seek out a den.
> 
> Crating feeds right into the dog's natural denning instinct. If you pay attention, you'll probably notice your dogs curling up in corners, under tables and other den like spaces
> 
> It's only when we insist on projecting human traits onto our dogs that we misread them badly. Often to the detriment of the dog.


I think we need to be careful about these comparisons. 
Wolves may have had dens but they spent many hours hunting, even days if need be. That can hardly be compared to a dog spending 10 t0 20 hours a day in a crate and going on a few walks or playing. 
Wolves that are tracked have been found several states away from where they were released. I am no wolf expert but wolves really work for their keep. 
The thread originally was about length of time spent in a crate, not whether crates were good or bad.
My personal opinion is that crates can be very useful but too many dogs do spend too much time in them.
I grew up pre crate and somehow we survived.


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## SuperG

zetti said:


> Crating feeds right into the dog's natural denning instinct. If you pay attention, you'll probably notice your dogs curling up in corner*s*, under table*s* and other den like space*s*


You have numerous crates throughout your house for your dogs?

SuperG


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## Shooter

I only crate(d) my dog(s) overnight for the first year. After the first year Scout would sleep in his crate sometimes since I left the door open. Otherwise he slept with his head facing the sliding glass door like he was on watch. He was always good to push his big wet nose in the middle of my back to let me know when he had to go outside.

Ranger currently is crated up at night and I take him out a minimum of once a night. During the day when I'm working I keep him in his kennel outside.


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## selzer

I grew up pre-crate. Our dog was chained in the back yard with a dog house 98% of the time. The dog was trained to stay in the kitchen or back hallway if it was well below 0. That was pre-crate. 

When we first got Princess, I was 16, my sister 18. Since I had to go to school earlier, my sister got stuck cleaning up all the poop throughout the house when the dog was sick and trying to wake us to go out. I don't know if being crated would have made that easier or not. But it would have kept her out of the garbage. That dog too landed outside with a dog house. She lived beyond 14 and survived an aggressive form of stomach cancer. But I think she would not have been any the worse off for being crated at night. The first dog we crated was Pip, the English Setter. He was a house dog his entire life, about 15 years.


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## Jenny720

Crates came along way. I remember the crates had wider openings on the top of the crate which our collie pup had gotten her head stuck in. I'm glad I was home to catch that.


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## Liffey

Where's the option for 0? I don't own a crate. Just never seemed to need it


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## SamsontheGSD

9 AM to 1 PM then 2 PM to 330 PM for the first few months. Then we moved to baby gating him in the kitchen/breakfast area for the same time periods. Not much trouble he can get into unless he chews on table and chair legs, and that hasn't happened. Our last one had the run of the house once she was no longer a puppy and could be trusted.


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## Chizzy

I did not want this to be my first post, but I am disspointed to see so many crate their dogs and for so long, in a forum I thought well of. Why is there no 0 option? 

I would get a crate if the potty training is worth it and to give my dog a little house for her own. Other reasons, no, the owner should do everything possible to fix the problems the dog has, that is their responsibility. Chewing and getting on the furniture is trainable. If the owner needs help, training classes. Is the house kept tidy and child/dog safe? Has cordoned off areas been tried? Cage is a last resort, and I have a feeling too many use it as the easy way and make excuses instead. 

Maybe I am exceptionally lucky I have a good dog but my dog is left alone in the house at night while we are asleep or for an hour or two if we go out. I have never come home to anything worse than a chewed pencil, she does not get in the trash, she doesn't go inside the rooms where she is not allowed, she does not get on the sofa, she'd leave her calling card, fur on the couch, if she did. If we are gone for longer periods of time she is outside in our large backyard. I guess I am also very lucky that in the 25 years and five dogs (three GSDs, two adopted mutts) I have had nothing has happened to them when they were left outside. I do not believe cage users love their dog _so much more_ than others that they only cage their dog to coddle them away from any bizarre dangers she may face unsupervised. 

I know the general response here is going to be to each his own/its my business, well the idea of a dog, a German Shepherd no less, in a wire box for 7 hours bothers me and that the pracitce seems to be becoming more common. A dog is not a toy to put away when its convenient. If the general member here does use a cage, I feel I cant be a member here after all.


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## RZZNSTR

average is about 2 hours.


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## SamsontheGSD

Chizzy said:


> I did not want this to be my first post, but I am disspointed to see so many crate their dogs and for so long, in a forum I thought well of. Why is there no 0 option?
> 
> I would get a crate if the potty training is worth it and to give my dog a little house for her own. Other reasons, no, the owner should do everything possible to fix the problems the dog has, that is their responsibility. Chewing and getting on the furniture is trainable. If the owner needs help, training classes. Is the house kept tidy and child/dog safe? Has cordoned off areas been tried? Cage is a last resort, and I have a feeling too many use it as the easy way and make excuses instead.
> 
> Maybe I am exceptionally lucky I have a good dog but my dog is left alone in the house at night while we are asleep or for an hour or two if we go out. I have never come home to anything worse than a chewed pencil, she does not get in the trash, she doesn't go inside the rooms where she is not allowed, she does not get on the sofa, she'd leave her calling card, fur on the couch, if she did. If we are gone for longer periods of time she is outside in our large backyard. I guess I am also very lucky that in the 25 years and five dogs (three GSDs, two adopted mutts) I have had nothing has happened to them when they were left outside. I do not believe cage users love their dog _so much more_ than others that they only cage their dog to coddle them away from any bizarre dangers she may face unsupervised.
> 
> I know the general response here is going to be to each his own/its my business, well the idea of a dog, a German Shepherd no less, in a wire box for 7 hours bothers me and that the pracitce seems to be becoming more common. A dog is not a toy to put away when its convenient. If the general member here does use a cage, I feel I cant be a member here after all.


Most dogs are ok with the den like nature of a crate as long as it is within reason. I know Samson still voluntarily took naps in his crate until we moved it to the garage. I do agree that 7 hours uninterrupted is excessive, and not something we do.

For us, we definitely have to keep him in the kitchen for now. He's big enough to get his head up to beds, chairs, and tables, but young enough to think that foil candy wrapper our daughter left out is something worth eating. Or the lamp chord, TV remote, etc. One can only train to those things when they're at home.

Our last Shepherd never had a crate. I did come home once to find she had dragged the couch accross the living room and deposited in front of the door. It was very confusing when the door wouldn't open that afternoon.


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## ShawnB

I have never used a crate and never thought I would either until I got my new puppy. I work a lot of hours and on average he is in his cage about 8 or 9 hours unless I have to work overtime then it can be as much as 12 hours. I always felt a crate was unnecessary and kind of cruel but now I understand the importance of it. If I don't keep an eye on Drako being he is 11 weeks he gets into everything. He's learning his boundaries but still likes to tug on lamp cords and chew on the edge of the furniture. If I left him roam he'd have my house destroyed and possibly hurt himself. He's to the point where when he is out, he plays and goes back to his cage occasionally and takes a nap on his own. I have talked to many people who are in the same situation I am in.... single, working a lot with a new puppy and they do the same thing I do and thier dogs have all adjusted well. 

For now when Drako is out he gets plenty of exercise and play time and when I have to leave he almost seems to know and goes to his cage and gets in it when I gather up his toys and put them in the cage. I'm very surprised he doesn't cry or freak out, he takes his favorite toy to his pillow and lays down.


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## Levi T

0 I dont want to be in a crate, so im not putting him in a crate, besides hes home alone for 4 hours


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## konathegsd

My dogs are crates for zero hours per day. I leave them alone for 2-4 hours a day 2 days a week. Anything over 4 hours and I?m not happy.

I do everything in my power to never have to leave them alone for more than 4 hours at a time. I?m a full time college student who works as well and this has worked out wonderful


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## Gunnertheterrorist

Gunner is crated 9-10 hours during the week while I'm at work and he's fine with it. When I get home we go out for a 4-5 mile hike and he's out rest of the evening until bedtime. He's 2 years old and still can't be trusted to have free roam of the house. Weekends he's out mostly unless I need to leave for a bit.


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## Trix

We picked up Neo at about 9 weeks old this summer. My wife stays at home so we didn’t need to crate our pup very much. Around 3-4x a week for an hour or two while we went to the gym or out to dinner. He really didn’t care for it despite us doing everything “right” for him to enjoy it. 

At about 12 weeks old we left for a 2 month cross country camping trip. We camped 38/41 nights. Needless to say, we never crated him as we were with him 24/7. Maybe once every few days we would leave him in the car (running and locked) for an hour while we worked out or the other rare thing. After 8000 miles in the car he was completely peaceful in there. 

Once we finished the trip, we used the crate a bit more and he loves it now. We’ll be watching tv in the living room and he just goes to a back room and lays down in his crate. He’ll do it for hours, sometimes even just play in there, door open. 

As long as your dog clearly enjoys it, nothing wrong with putting them in there. Just make sure you give them plenty of exercise and training when they are out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Armistice

I've gone through different potty training styles and have landed on giving her freedom of the living/ dining room. She is only crated for an hr at breakfast and an hr at dinner. I'm home to take her out every 10-20mins


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## selzer

Milla is crated for 45minutes to 1 hour per day. I have crates open for Jenna, Babs, and Quinnie, and sometimes they go in them. Jenna sleeps in hers, it is an airline crate and it is like a cave. I think Babs sleeps in hers some of the time. Hard to say. At night she sleeps next to my bed. Quinnie sleeps in my bed.


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## pashana

Total 0. Proplems at first but now at The age 25 weeks over, freeroam at The House alone, while i am working and no pees, poops, or any destruction..


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## egwinjr

we have an odd mix, the most it ever ends up though is 9 or 10 hours like 1 or 2 days a week depending on our work schedules. most days were lucky though as my fiancé is off twice during the week and I'm off all weekend, on days our work overlaps the two that get put in kennels see maybe 5 hours tops. 

my gsd mix free roams all day but as a puppy she spent 12 hours a day in a kennel for a while due to my work schedule. it was rough and I felt bad but I retained her from a previous relationship as a 10 week old puppy and no way was I going to give her up and the girl that left moved out of state and couldn't take her. thankfully that wasn't long lived and shes treated like royalty anyway in the house lol. 

the other two, one 10 y/o yorkipoo stays out at night or while we are home but in her old age seems to be fond of her kennel during the day while no one is home plus if left out she will pee on the floor from time to time. the other a 1 y/o mini aussie is a terror if left alone and will destroy things out of boredom. at night lately weve been trying to leave him out but **** open his kennel door and go in to sleep anyway. when we put our shoes on to leave he runs to his kennel already as he knows its time to rest. 

its not perfect and we would love to have them all out all the time but some of it is for their own safety and some if just they cant be trusted. to offset this we made sure when building a new home to purchase a plot with plenty of land so that they have easy access to outside while were home to train and play.


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## Nekro

Currently only about 4 hours max during the weekday. I work nights and my wife works days, so our schedule works best for our puppy at the moment but not my wife. Since I spend more time with the dog than her lol. When we have gone out she spends about 6 hours in her crate. When it comes to sleep she can easily go to sleep at 9:30 till around 6 when she starting whining to go out and pee.


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## clipke

I currently run a business out of my parents house, so I'm home all day with the dogs. I do put my shepherd puppy in his crate if I need to go anywhere that I cannot bring him. He has pretty bad separation anxiety and destroys everything he can get his mouth on. I don't see any point in crating my adult dog while I'm gone, but when he was a puppy he was crated for at least 8 hours a day while I went to work.


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## Bentwings1

My Aussie goes to work with me. She has to stay in her crate due to dangers in the shop. Welding and grinding sparks and chasing mice in the steel,rack. She gets to go on walks in the field about four times a day for 20-30 minutes each depending on weather. Sometimes she likes to stay in the truck but it has to be cloudy and no warmer than 60. I check her hourly and the windows are open. At home she has the run of the house. The kitchen floor or bathroom floor are favorites. I have the leave a few dirty clothes on the bedroom floor for her too. She has a nice bed but only sleeps there for a couple hours when really tired. She will curl up on the bed for a while either on her blanket or on my pillows. She is really restless sleeper often waking me in the wee hours to go out.

My GSD preferred to stay in his kennel or run in the fenced back yard. He rarely came in the house except for really rotten weather. Then he curled up by the door. He would rest on his carpet or blanket but usually scratched it to a pile and maybe rested his head on it. He would curl up next to me while I was reading but if I moved he would head for the door.

The Boxers were like partners. They all slept on the bed, taking as much of it as possible. Infamous for passing gas, they would look at me like I did it. Sometimes even barking like they were cussing at me.

Byron.


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## RuthArt

I had a kennel run in the back yard (covered with wire/tarp 6'x8'); if we left for any length of time, Wiena would stay in there where
she was protected. I didn't want to leave her in the house in case there was a fire, there would be no
way out. 
When we kept her in a crate at church, it was for only a couple of hours, then out to play with the kids after church.


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## Armistice

I hate crating during the day, but no backyard and too many accidents made me do it. Starting after breakfast, she has supervised free roam of the living/ dining room. When I notice her sniffing around too much for my liking, then she goes in the crate for 1-1.5 hrs. She's then let out, we go potty, then she's back into the free roam area

At night, she's crated from 9 or 10pm- 7am. She's let out every 4-5hrs

She's doing better with free roam. Used to have an accident if it was longer than 10mins. We've been crating more the last week and tonight she was out for 30-40mins playing with toys and such before I put her in the crate. I think she's finally getting it

She's only 13wks


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## GandalfTheShepherd

We brought the crate back out since it's christmas time and lots of dangerous decorations he could eat. Not to mention tons of relatives over, turkeys with bones he could choke on and visitors feeding him things he is allergic to... I would just rather not. It also gives him a safe place to escape to from all the noise and excitement if he wants, he loves his crate. He is great in the house and never destructive when I leave him out (up to 5 hours on occasion). But I do accept no matter how perfect he normally is he is still a puppy and all those cables and tinsel could do some serious damage. The crate will go back up after the holidays.


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## dave2336

Mine are out all day. The 12 week old GSD stays in his crate at night.


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## Armistice

I'm going to update my last post (only 3 posts up) that for the last few weeks, Zoe has been allowed to be out of her crate all day and she's almost 5mos now. She is still mostly confined to the living/ dining room area, but she is allowed access to the hall and kitchen frequently and if the cats aren't there

We still crate at night from 11pm-ish until 7am-ish. We will prob continue that until at least 1yr old or we know 100% that she's housebroken... which I don't believe she is quite yet


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## selzer

I am a big fan of crates, and a big fan of not crating. I prefer kenneling them. Right now, Heidi is the only one I shut in a crate, and only for an hour or so when I am taking care of the other critters. Babs and Jenna and Quinnie have crates in their in/outs, that have their gates tied open, so they can rest in them if they choose to. 

When it got miserably cold a few days ago, I brought Odie in and crated her in the hallway, along with Lassie. I through Kojak in with Jenna so he would have an in/out. I put Heidi in her crate. I brought Joy in and crated her next to Heidi. I used an x-pen to hook to a 4'x32" crate to give Hepsi and Cujo an area. I crated Milla next to Ninja. Crated Bear across from them. Brought Babsy and Quinnie up into my bedroom, and gave the rest of the sun-room (where most of them were crated) to Karma and Ramona, where they could go in an out. 

A month ago, I took Quinnie, who has never been shut in a crate, to the IX center for a dog show. It is called the Classic and generally there are thousands of dogs and maybe twice as many people there. In order to do the walk-through, you either have to crate your dog, or have someone hold your dog and as I was there on my own, I needed a crate. I was hoping to get a soft crate (lighter), but no luck. I bought a small metal crate and put it up and put her in it. I sat next to it, then walked off to sign in and get my number and come right back. I took her out of the crate, and waited until the walk-through to put her back in. She made no fuss. None. 

After she got through her run, (I promised her a hot dog), I put her in the crate and walked out of sight and was gone for a good 15 minutes, maybe more getting her a hot dog and me a pretzel. I came back and she was calmly lying down in the crate with her paws crossed waiting for me. We had two shows on Saturday and one on Sunday, and repeated that with no problems. Frankly, I would not have faulted her if she carried on like a banshee. Who does that to a dog in their first show? Lock them in a crate when they have never been crated before in their life? Probably the same person who put her on a down stay and then walked over and sat at a table in the same show and ate lunch with her nieces, while the show went on around her. 

At night she still carries my sandles to me in the bed when she thinks it is time for me to get up and let her out. She has a rather extensive petting zoo of animals that she brings into my bed. I never know what I might wake up next to. But she is cute, and I love her and all her toysies. It is funny to roll over onto Flea or Snakey, or Badger or Skunky. Lady Bug, or Bee or a rather soggy Bear and so many more. As long as she doesn't bring me the toilet brush -- I think she was trying to tell me something that day. 

But the answer is, regularly, 1 hour. Occasionaly, 6-8 hours.


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## Jpage24.87

Sitka is crated for about 7 hours, 5 days a week while I work out of the house. I make sure he's fed and watered, and play a bit in the am. Sometime I can sneak away from work for 10 minutes and let him out to stretch and potty, then straight back until I'm finished at work. Once I'm home I try to do everything with him. We play outside, train, and feed. I don't usually kennel him when I'm home unless he needs a chill pill, and he sleeps wherever he drops while I'm home. On The weekends he is hardly crated, unless I have to run an errand he can't attend. Otherwise it's all fun and games!


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## JaxsMom

Jax is crated from 7:30 till 12:30 Mon-Thurs. My neighbor comes over and lets him out for about 20 mins then puts him back in and he is out again at 3 when my daughter comes home off the bus. He is rarely crated Fri-Sunday, only if I have errands to run, and sleeps with me at night. Eventually I will phase out having my neighbor come over and he will be crated from 7:30 till 3.

He will be 7 mo on the 16th of this month.


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## airbearmd

We have had 5 Shepherds and only the last two have been crated. We generally only use the crate in the daytime for an hour at the most when our guy gets too rambunctious and needs a timeout. During the night we crate him when we turn in, otherwise he is up on the bed, which we don't want. Our last Shepherd was allowed on the bed and he became overly possessive and thought the bed was his. He loves his crate and all we have to do is say "Crate" and he streaks for the bedroom to get in. We keep the crate by the bed so he always feels part of the pack. We never use the crate as a "punishment!" The crate needs to be a place of refuge and safety for him, especially when the grandchildren visit!

It seems counter productive to leave home and not let the Shepherd have free reign of the house, since only a complete idiot would try to break into a house with a German Shepherd home. We started this "free reign" idea in small increments making sure each time that he was not going to suffer separation anxiety and tear the house up. We can now leave him for hours alone with free access to everything. This method has worked very well with our last two Shepherds.


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## Hazel GSD

Actually, Hazel is only in her crate at night. In the daytime, she is outside or inside free


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## Nikka Khrystyne

The way mine and my husbands schedule works they aren’t crated for more then 4-5 hours at a time. He comes home from work just as I’m leaving. And then pups are crates when he gets ready to sleep. By the time he leaves I’m on my way home. If we go out to run errands or do anything we try to be back an hour before max bladder Capacity which is around 6 hours at their age. 

Even then I usually don’t like to be gone for more then 4 hours without coming home to let them out and play before leaving again. 

If we are going to going out in a different city or going to be out late, we have my husbands younger brother come over to sit with them. 

He will take them to the bathroom every couple hours and play with them. We tell him he can put them inside the crate when it get late to sleep, but when he’s there but he usually just let them sleep outside the crate all night till we get home while he plays video games.


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## aalleenn

Spike is in big box over the night and 2 hours at day. But my fence is almost finished and he will be free 24h )


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## Lexie’s mom

Lex was crated overnight for the 1st couple of months. Not any more. We have a gated living room/ kitchen area and someone is home most of the time.


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## Petra's Dad

Usually 0 unless we are leaving the puppy while we go shop or something.


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## GSDchoice

Zero.
He's a totally nondestructive dog who has never had an accident in the house (knock on wood).
However, before you begin to compare...he has other significant issues, believe me!! 

He *is* crate-trained though and will go in when I point (trained behavior left over from his first few months with us, when he was crated every night.)


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## LRP

We do not crate either of our dogs unless there is a health issue (spay ect… ). They have free roam of our very large, very heavily fenced backyard. When we are home, they are inside with us. When we are at work or sleeping they are outside in their yard. They have a large, covered kennel (door always open unless we need them inside it), a covered patio attached to the house with lots of bed options, dog houses ect… but they love there back yard and will choose to sleep in whatever new hole they have dug during the day. We have completely re-done our fencing so they are secure. We have cameras all over to make sure they are protected. We do daily training sessions with each dog separately, give them lots of exercise and attention and they really are perfect dogs. They bark when they are supposed to (other dog or human near their house... ) I know a lot of people swear you have to crate your dogs but I think with the right training and making sure your dogs are healthy and given the proper amount of attention, they do fine on their own in a backyard.


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## dojoson41

in winter about 8 hours when at work (right next to the door that the firemen told me to do so they dont have to go into a burning house, they are right there for the FMs to pull the whole cage out). In spring/summer/fall outside in 15X15 kennels then aloud to run around in the connecting 50X50 run when not running around with me on the farm or in the house.


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## IdunGSD

She received her crate when she came to me but never sleep or kept in it. She had experience with crate in breeders farm though. I put her old toys in the crate. Used to put her puppy bed in it too but she eventually dragged it out. She would hide her treats in the crate and look for her toys. I think she did want a crate or small space to hide. She loved to sneak under my bed or sleep under a table.


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## WNGD

None of my dogs have ever been crated after about 4-5 months of age. 
They have the run of the house if I'm not home but I also mostly work from home. 
Rogan's total destruction as a pup was one shoe he started on and a stick from the firewood pile beside the fireplace


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## Guinevere

Sunflowers said:


> I can't vote. My answer would be zero. We use an expen, and he is in there maybe 1 to 2 hours a day.
> He also sleeps in there at night, from 10 PM to 6 AM.


What is an expen?


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## Guinevere

Guinevere said:


> What is an expen?


NEVERMIND, I searched in forum and found it. Yes, we used an ex pen when Beloved came home at 9 weeks. It was good for a few weeks and then she walked it around the room, jumped on the sides, etc. We reinforced it and taped to the floor so she pulled the tape up. Etc etc etc. You all know what I mean. Thanks guys


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## Rabidwolfie

Other than when he goes in there voluntarily with the door open, my pup is usually only in his bed overnight, and only because he eats the cat's food if he's not (which he will not touch during the day even when I'm not watching him for some reason. Only at night)


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## NiabiTheGreat

Sadly, 10 hours right now. I work full time. I will move to PT in July-August, then he will only be in there 6 hours. Usually, he is not in one at all but, he does have SA and will destroy walls/doors/windows. So I do have to crate him. Thankfully he does ok, just sleeps the entire time.


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