# Genetics and WGSL colors



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If a WGSL from known German showlines produces a black puppy from a recessive gene from a WL or other line way back in the pedigree, is the dog considered to be a WGSL or part WL or ASL, depending on where the black gene came from? Do WGSL ever produce solid black dogs? If so, why don't we ever see them?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A dog who has been bred for generations for the black and deep brown color and structure to compete in the conformation ring, it is WGSL even if it might carry the black recessive. Generally dogs that carry the black recessive also have a more extended saddle or blanket pattern. Even if a WL was used at some point back a number of generations ago, but then bred back to WGSL for many generations, it is still a WGSL. Friend of mine has a WGSL female that does carry the Lierbergs (Bodo, Bernd and Fin) and also Marko Cellerland (show line that is found more in working lines). It isn't uncommon to find some old show lines like Canto Wienerau and Quanto Wienerau is WL either, but it doesn't make them show lines.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It would be pretty darn uncommon for a dog from many generations of WGSL to produce a black. Some of the old Kirschental dogs had WL in them and it might be possible for a dog going back on those dogs to carry the black recessive for generations and then be bred to another to produce black, but I have never seen one. The extended saddle and blanket patterned dogs aren't favored in the show ring so wouldn't be bred for by people interested in doing well in that venue.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you. I looked up Canto and he looked Black and Tan with a saddle.

Problems in the German Shepherd Dog - The German Shepherd Dog


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes. I was just using him in a WL pedigrees as an example not making a WL a show line.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you. I looked up Canto and he looked Black and Tan with a saddle.
> 
> Problems in the German Shepherd Dog - The German Shepherd Dog


Canto was known for producing washed out colour .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Canto was known for producing washed out colour .


Why was he used so often?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lol -- why indeed .

see http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, lol, explain to me why Marko was SL and Bernd and Bodo were not?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Actually, you know I don't believe in line designation, but I definitely consider Bernd/Bodo and Marko examples of the epitome of the breed. Excellent structure, excellent temperament, producers of excellent working traits, and capable of producing all major pigments when bred to receptive mates. They represent the standard in every aspect( to include pigment types produced) and SHOULD be a starting point for any serious breeder that cares about the complete dog. Jmho


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Lisa, lol, explain to me why Marko was SL and Bernd and Bodo were not?


That was the last time period when 
there was no split at the time --


when talking about show and working lines the definitive 
point of separation is the Wienerau and Arminius Martin brothers
era -- forever changed with Canto.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Actually, you know I don't believe in line designation, but I definitely consider Bernd/Bodo and Marko examples of the epitome of the breed. Excellent structure, excellent temperament, producers of excellent working traits, and capable of producing all major pigments when bred to receptive mates. They represent the standard in every aspect( to include pigment types produced) and SHOULD be a starting point for any serious breeder that cares about the complete dog. Jmho


but Cliff there is a line designation and that is created by and affected by the accumulation of selection priorities.

Bernd and Bodo Lierberg in my mind are still the best dogs .
My longest running pedigree , advanced over the last 35 years plus is
based on the Lierberg's and Marko - and then bringing in old herding 
through OLD kirschental (racker's) and haus knufken etc etc.

you need a high powered telescope to look back into the pedigrees to see common
connections - how many generations take you back to the late 60's , before you see one

and this is true of the ASL's 

the differences satisfy all the requirements necessary to fulfill the AKC CKC etc creation and naming and stud book of a new breed.

that is the problem - we essentially have 3 breeds under one name.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

To add in another colour, who was the SV president who said no sable dog would ever get a VA rating as long as he was president?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Grunfeld German Shepherds


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Marko along with Mutz, Canto and Quanto were the four pillars of the showlines until Marko was pushed out due to his not producing the right "type". Even Mutz pretty much was very limited in his use once the Martin brothers changed the direction of the breed. Yes, Bodo and Bernd were "show lines", but they were brought forth more for their ability to work when work was actually important to the SV. Bodo was eventually sold to the US while Bernd was used by the smart breeders who actually cared about maintaining working ability. We also had Dolf, Gin, Fello and then a full brother that carries a different kennel name (Aro?). Of course you know all of this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> To add in another colour, who was the SV president who said no sable dog would ever get a VA rating as long as he was president?


mmmmm --- There was one sable in an SV show that had the spectators up on their feet booing every time the judge switched him back and forth from first to second place.

"they" did not want a sable --- and he was a great looking dog and had better temperament and bite work - it could have been a positive change 

Fred Lanting and the English Videx group had lots of comments on that .

the name will pop up

--- and then you have ill informed close minded people insisting on sables being washed out and should be avoided --- 
sure -- if that sable is actually a black and tan genetically but so washed out (Canto) with bitch stripe and fading pigment - check the white nails --that it looks like a sable, a poorly pigmented sable at that -


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> That was the last time period when
> there was no split at the time --
> 
> 
> ...


As I have often said, it is really too bad Canto didn't die at birth like his brother instead of at 4. It sure would have been much better for the breed.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I think it might have been Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook kennels.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sirius Dog[/url

sunsilver - I am sure I mentioned the sables name in the iceberg breeders thread

I think the judge was Messler?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I think you're right, but Peter or Heinrich?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Peter Meßler gave VA to a sable so it wasn't him.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

When I mentioned Hassing's name, I meant he was the one that asked the judge the question, of course. Koos breeds a lot of very nice sable dogs that can work. The foundation for his lines are mostly Busecker Schloss.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

WGSL do come in black:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2552251-nord-shtolts-yatta-kella is SG rated and black coming from Russian lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Peter Meßler gave VA to a sable so it wasn't him.


but not Sieger -- 

this was back in the days of the gsdeuro forum 
I can picture the dog 
recall videos of some competitors and observers spitting mad to hava sable there , recall Lanting articles and the dogs name is just beyond being able to grasp it


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> When I mentioned Hassing's name, I meant he was the one that asked the judge the question, of course. Koos breeds a lot of very nice sable dogs that can work. The foundation for his lines are mostly Busecker Schloss.


Koos bred for work. 
the Busecker dogs were based on a Greif Lahntal son, Sagus.

selecting sharper dogs for his program -- so Greif and Fero 

van Tiekerhook - van Tiekerhook not mincing any words about his feelings
about show lines !


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Pretty sure it was Timo: Gallery: VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten

Re Koos: have had this article saved to my computer since it first came out!

https://www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/news/103-after-us-the-great-flood.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Timo vom Berrekasten was 2X VA2, 1X VA4 and was VA1 in Austria. He also went V1 at the Landesgruppen before the SS. I don't have time to research if he had much influence in breeding. He was bred, but nothing like the more popular VA dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sunsilver -- Bingo - yes it was Timo . thanks


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have had two German breeders/Judges that Timothy SHOULD have been Seiger, but it was NOT going to happen in Germany no matter what he did or produced.
One of Marlo's parents was an HGH dog. 
Mutz was not really a Canto SL dog, coming over Ajax v h Dexel if my memory serves me correctly.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, Mutz wasn't a Canto SL dog, but he was used still when Marko was removed from chosen bloodlines for the Sieger show.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am happy to have Marko in my primary line's background.

Marko son -- Marko Marko vom Abtei-Eck
beautiful use of Marko / Bernd / and Ajax all in one. - old herding lines -- 
used beautifully by haus Knufken - herding lines - first to produce Thilo and again to produce Pusta haus Knufken
(a pedigree to study ) Pusta vom Haus Knüfken (marko linebreeding)

Pusta is a very important dog to me .

Marko and his progeny produced working herding dogs .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Me too Carmen. He was right on Nike's 5 generation pedigree. Also my first GSD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Lisa that a Kirschental black and red would probably be best chance of getting a possible black, and it's probably to late for them at this point. Btw, if I was an ASL breeder and wanted to tap into WGSL, the Kirschental dogs or a close descendant of Timo/Arlett kennels could bring in some pigment and genetic diversity.


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