# What do you do when a passer by wants to chat?



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

So, working with my reactive GSD I ask for calm focus from her when people pass by. 9 times out of 10 this is great and we are seeing improvements, but she cannot cope when people stop and want to approach her. She goes in to full on panic with lunging and barking which starts from the moment I break eye contact or focus so I can politely ask them not to walk up to her. I'm looking for advice on what to do in those situations. We're doing BAT etc so it's really just the situations where the general public don't understand what we're doing and insist on approaching. She has a yellow dog bandana. 


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

If they are not dog people they will not understand the yellow bandana! Protect your dog and advise them "do not approach, she is in training & is not good with strangers". Most people will understand but be prepared to have to be flat out rude and turn and completely change your route. Also think about a training vest with big bold letters training DO NOT PET!!
Police Service Dog Black Vest Harness with 2 Embroidered &apos;do not Pet&apos; Badges | eBay


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Keep your pace, walk like you mean it and simply pass


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

In the end I do what's best for my dog. If that means taking the long way around I'll do it, if it means being polite and smiling while swerving around someone and calling a "sorry, busy training!" behind me, or being an absolute nasty person and telling someone flat out to back off or get their dog away from mine. I'll do whatever it takes to keep both myself and my dogs and other people safe

I agree that most people even dog owners still don't know the concept of the yellow ribbon so a harness with clear written warnings like Athena'sMom suggests may be a good investment along with a basket style muzzle. While a muzzle may make her seem viscous to Joe Public you will hopefully see most people back off when they see it. A comfortable muzzle doesn't inconvenience the dog in any way so it doesn't cause any harm


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Or you can punish the reactivity and have your conversation and go on your way.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> In the end I do what's best for my dog. If that means taking the long way around I'll do it, if it means being polite and smiling while swerving around someone and calling a "sorry, busy training!" behind me, or being an absolute nasty person and telling someone flat out to back off or get their dog away from mine. I'll do whatever it takes to keep both myself and my dogs and other people safe
> 
> I agree that most people even dog owners still don't know the concept of the yellow ribbon so a harness with clear written warnings like Athena'sMom suggests may be a *good investment along with a basket style muzzle. While a muzzle may make her seem viscous to Joe Public you will hopefully see most people back off when they see it. A comfortable muzzle doesn't inconvenience the dog in any way so it doesn't cause any harm*


I wish muzzles did back people off. For some it is a magnet. "He can't bite he has a muzzle" 

Muzzles are good for reactive dogs, especially when there is a chance of a bite. Just be aware you have an issue to deal with on this as well.

When Woolf has his muzzle on is when I am an absolute witch about anyone approaching because I already know it is going to be one of those 'don't worry. I am good with dogs'


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Twyla said:


> I wish muzzles did back people off. For some it is a magnet. "He can't bite he has a muzzle"
> 
> Muzzles are good for reactive dogs, especially when there is a chance of a bite. Just be aware you have an issue to deal with on this as well.
> 
> When Woolf has his muzzle on is when I am an absolute witch about anyone approaching because I already know it is going to be one of those 'don't worry. I am good with dogs'


Absolutely, there are wack jobs out there anywhere.

When Delgado wears his Halti people will veer away, if he's just wearing his prong they are much more likely to walk up. That's just the Halti, I can only imagine what response a muzzle would elicit


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Not many know what the yellow bandana is. 
Be clear with strangers. Its great you are working on it, in the real world were yes people do approach and frankly a good looking dog is a convo magnet! Everyone wants to say hello to a gorgeous beast. You are best to take an reactive moment like that and as another member said "correct it" or take the route less travelled and work on things in a semi controlled environment. There was a rottie in tys old ob class, he was a fearful dog that had no issues biting, his owner brought him every Sunday and worked woth him at a distance making sure not to overwhelm him and we all knew not to touch him, he did very well ! He even approached andrew at the end of a class for a pat. 

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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

If you can keep your dog under threshold for a particular distance from the person, i would do this. It could be across the road, few yards away or just a yard away. Your dog is your primary concern, If i see a person coming, i go and walk on the other side of the road. OR i have her sit down and crouch down (This i find is what makes HER feel more secure when she is in sit position and i am crouched down facing her) and i do a "party" because people are walking by and its a no big deal, in fact its a "party!" 

You have to find out what makes your dog feel secure, and work with that. Whether or not your standing on your head, you can slowly work it up from there. The other day i let somebody go past her threshold, my fault- and we learn from it. 
If you have to ignore people in order to keep your dog from being reactive, do it. It's what i did for the first half year basically. Now i can talk to people and she doesn't reactive, where as she use to if they talked to us. TIME, patience and counter conditioning strangers to not being a big deal. The worst things you can do are to make a big deal out of it. Think about when you see a person coming, you probably start to tighten the leash (the dog feels this, and it tenses up the dog!) and also you probably without realizing it hold your breathe.. Which is another tense trigger for the dog. We do this without realizing it, so you have to be cognitive about when a person DOES approach, keep it calm, safe and fun. Sing happy birthday in a fun voice if you have to, to keep your own nerves down, that will help. Have treats if you can (high quality, like hot dog or cheese) to associate the person (the scary thing) to a good thing!  

Feel free to message me if you want!


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Basically, you can correct swiftly right before the escalation into panic/pulling happens (it will stop the behavior in it's tracks) or avoid the situation from ever happening in the first place. Working up slowly to having your dog be able to be near people without reacting badly. Could also do a combination of both styles. Personally, I would correct the behavior right then and there but that's me. Do what you feel is right for you and your dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Or you can punish the reactivity and have your conversation and go on your way.


LOL, or perhaps there is a more nuanced approach? 

I think it's fair to say... you should not punish for a behaviour until you have taught him want you want?

This a "bubble dog"  A dog that needs a protective bubble around it until it "knows" how to behave around people! 

Thanks to my GSD with his "people issues," I can say been there done that got it fixed! 

Couple of links, post 8:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.htmlng

"Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" is what I did. I did use a fabric mesh muzzle for a bit, then dropped it, once my guy learned his place was behind me, if I spoke to people.

At first I told him to stay and stepped in front, "No you can't pet my dog he is in training" soon he began to expect to behind me when I spoke to someone. I learned what he looked like when he was OK.

Finally the day came when someone "insisted" on petting him! GSD guy, I had the crossed the street and he crossed to meet us. I did the same as always "he asked to pet Rocky, I knew what he looked like when he was OK. He looked just like that I said OK and stepped aside. 

Rocky was fine! Did not really seem to care but that was good with me...he's not a social butterfly.

Don't know how long it took? Weeks if not months, I wasn’t on the clock.

There is also this...did not know about it at the time:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog-2.html

Once you have taught him what you expect...then you can correct the crap out of him! I never found that necessary myself.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Courtney said:


> Keep your pace, walk like you mean it and simply pass


This is what I do. If they insist on talking to me, I look surprised and say "You can see me?" and keep on walking.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If someone wants to stop and chat with your dog carrying on like that, then they must really love dogs, lol. I'd say thanks, please help me work on this behavior. If you've got her to the point that 90% of the time she's fine with people passing, that's great. It shouldn't be too difficult to work on actually stopping - just ask for a bit of distance first and work from there. It sounds like you have to transition away from the eye contact on your part?


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Or you can punish the reactivity and have your conversation and go on your way.


Pardon? Heh...
What do you suggest? Details would be most helpful.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> LOL, or perhaps there is a more nuanced approach?
> 
> I think it's fair to say... you should not punish for a behaviour until you have taught him want you want?
> 
> ...


It's fair to say punishing a dog for a behavior you don't want teaches it what not to do fairly quickly. I got over the whole bubble threshold bs months ago. Most of the bubble behavior is handler created in the first place because they basically do leash agitation sessions with their dogs on walks without realizing it. Even a fairly light correction the first time they saw the behavior would have fixed it. For many it's an operant behavior caused by positive reinforcing the behavior by adding distance from the trigger.

Audie if you're interested send me a pm and we can talk about the how's the whys and why it's so effective. 

I'll qualify myself just this once. I have 22 dogs in training ATM. Of those 6 had a chief complaint of leash reactivity to either other dogs on the walk or cars or both. Of those 6 that have been here for 1 and a half weeks none are showing the reactive behavior anymore or fear of dogs or cars or anything of the sort. It's pretty much done (I'm still watching and waiting for relapse). The rest of the time they're here they'll just learn obedience, manners, and play with each other in the yard.

Work on it for months if you want with BAT or LAT or CAT IN THE HAT but it's all CRAP.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Cat in the hat training would be creepy. 

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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Passers by*

When Zeus was younger and in training I hated when people wanted to pet him. It was so distracting to Zeus and it was an interruption in our training routine.

This was especially a problem with one neighbor fellow who always wanted to rough him up when he was a puppy under three months.

Zeus was nippy like all are and gave him a few nips too. All it did was teach the dog to be wary of strangers and to bite. We were friends from way back, so, I didn't chastise him. But I avoided him thereafter.

Then Zeus went into bite training and became even less concerned about biting than he'd been before, developed quite a bite and that was a cause of concern. Zeus is a beautiful animal and people want to see and touch him. But his well-cultured suspicion of people was dangerous. So, at about six months old when he was most unstable and most suspicious I had some t-shirts made that warned people away from him.

Worked very, very well, despite some the negative comments I got from folks on this board who didn't like the idea of a t-shirt warning people of the tendency of my dog to react. I wear the shirts still even though Zeus is much more stable and has shown an aversion to biting, despite his training to do so.

But I still don't want folks walking up to the dog as who knows what jerk he's likely to take offense to one day and lose his aversion to biting. So, here's what I do when someone's approaching.

Firstly, I'm always aware of those who might be around me and I react before the dog has a chance to do so. If I see we're going to be on an intersecting path I take the dog off the road or sidewalk at close heel and give him sit, down stay IN DUTCH. I give those commands loud enough that the other person(s) plainly hear them.

Most people will just walk on by with nothing more than a sideways glance at the dog and be glad to be past him. But some won't and come towards the dog and me.

So, I chant Easy, Easy, Easy as if I'm preempting an action on the part of the dog. Almost everyone stops their approach at that point.

Then there are kids and there are some adults too who are fools. To them I give a very sharp and authoritative "DO NO APPROACH THE DOG" and I hold up my right arm and hand as if to block them. That happens to be the same thing the t-shirt says.

Only one person still approached us after that and even that was in response to their own dog pulling, growling and attempting to attack my dog. I pepper sprayed that dog and by some fortunate miracle of the wind the dog's owner also got a little.

Too darned bad.

LF


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I kind of feel like I'm getting to the next step worth her and that's where we're stumbling. I can keep her calm when people walk by and focused on me (I recently discovered if I make noises like mooing like a cow she completely relaxes!) but unfortunately the better behaved she is the more people want to approach so I really need to come up with a plan. I'm probably too nice to the stranger and should be thinking of my dog more.

I'm going to look at getting her a t shirt or something on her lead which clearly says dog in training and see if that helps. 

Referring to the punishment suggestion......I do believe she needs to know when she's misbehaving but punishing her when she's reacting doesn't work for me. It's not in my nature and because it doesn't sit well with me I just couldn't do it properly. I've seen trainers handle her and stop her reaction within minutes, those trainers have demonstrated techniques which left her terrified of them hence the lack of reaction. She was more scared of them than the other dog. I don't want a relationship with her which is based on fear. She wasn't reactive to people until those trainers, who were strangers to her, worked with her. I'm not saying it's all their fault, it's just not something that worked long term for her. 

Thanks again.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mooing relaxes her! Ha thats cute 

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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sometimes I'll stop and say, "Hey! Glad you stopped! You got $20 I can borrow?" and usually they walk away without saying a word.

I've taught my dog to carry a cup in his mouth for change. That way he can't bark and we make candy money.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lilie said:


> Sometimes I'll stop and say, "Hey! Glad you stopped! You got $20 I can borrow?" and usually they walk away without saying a word.
> 
> I've taught my dog to carry a cup in his mouth for change. That way he can't bark and we make candy money.


HEY !!! I was going to post something very similar....something to the effect..." Yeah...hi, hi ( very insincerely ) you have $20 you could loan me?"


SuperG


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

SuperG said:


> HEY !!! I was going to post something very similar....something to the effect..." Yeah...hi, hi ( very insincerely ) you have $20 you could loan me?"
> 
> 
> SuperG


I was going to say 'we make beer money' , but I didn't want to make folks angry since my dog is still a minor.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lilie said:


> Sometimes I'll stop and say, "Hey! Glad you stopped! You got $20 I can borrow?" and usually they walk away without saying a word.
> 
> I've taught my dog to carry a cup in his mouth for change. That way he can't bark and we make candy money.


Lolol this is amazing. If I had more balls I'd try it


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

Baillif said:


> It's fair to say punishing a dog for a behavior you don't want teaches it what not to do fairly quickly.


The word "punishment" is throwing me off a bit. Punishment seems to suggest negative reinforcement, which may not be the best thing for your companion. How might one punish a dog? 

I think that perhaps you mean, "correction?" And, no, it isn't semantics. There is a big difference between the two.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Baillif said:


> It's fair to say punishing a dog for a behavior you don't want teaches it what not to do fairly quickly. I got over the whole bubble threshold bs months ago. Most of the bubble behavior is handler created in the first place because they basically do leash agitation sessions with their dogs on walks without realizing it. Even a fairly light correction the first time they saw the behavior would have fixed it. For many it's an operant behavior caused by positive reinforcing the behavior by adding distance from the trigger.
> 
> Audie if you're interested send me a pm and we can talk about the how's the whys and why it's so effective.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Baliff. Took a dog that was 14 weeks old to an experienced trainer. Taught me what to correct for with a prong collar. 10 days later, the dog was way better. I wanted to stop the bad behavior immediately-- not let it go on and on. At 5 months old he is still very good about not reacting in parks.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

> The word "punishment" is throwing me off a bit. Punishment seems to suggest negative reinforcement, which may not be the best thing for your companion. How might one punish a dog?
> 
> I think that perhaps you mean, "correction?" And, no, it isn't semantics. There is a big difference between the two.





Baillif said:


> It's fair to say punishing a dog for a behavior you don't want teaches it what not to do fairly quickly. I got over the whole bubble threshold bs months ago. Most of the bubble behavior is handler created in the first place because they basically do leash agitation sessions with their dogs on walks without realizing it. Even a fairly light correction the first time they saw the behavior would have fixed it. For many it's an operant behavior caused by positive reinforcing the behavior by adding distance from the trigger.


Change the word punishment to correction and I agree with that. To me corrections = immediate physical reprimand for misbehaving. Personally, I don't like ignoring problems. I think dogs should have strong consequences for negative/dangerous actions. Of course corrections have to come from a good place (not angry, frustrated, vengeful, sadistic etc) When applied correctly/justly they make for a respectful/safe dog citizen.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Audie1 said:


> The word "punishment" is throwing me off a bit. Punishment seems to suggest negative reinforcement, which may not be the best thing for your companion. How might one punish a dog?
> 
> I think that perhaps you mean, "correction?" And, no, it isn't semantics. There is a big difference between the two.


There are four quadrants to operant conditioning.

Positive reinforcement
Negative reinforcement 
Positive punishment
Negative punishment

When I say punish I mean positive punishment. Doing something aversive after a dog performs an undesirable behavior to interrupt the progression of the behavior and decrease the chances of it occurring again until the behavior stops happening.

And I do not mean correction because a correction could be positive punishment or negative punishment or negative reinforcement.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> Change the word punishment to correction and I agree with that. To me corrections = immediate physical reprimand for misbehaving. Personally, I don't like ignoring problems. I think dogs should have strong consequences for negative/dangerous actions. Of course corrections have to come from a good place (not angry, frustrated, vengeful, sadistic etc) When applied correctly/justly they make for a respectful/safe dog citizen.


Immediate physical reprimand for misbehaving is positive punishment.

We agree. You have your terminology wrong.

Correction is a very very vague term.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

The problem with correcting, punishing or even attempting to change a growl or bark from a dog who is fearful reactive (which is what most dogs are when aggressive, and its usually quite obvious!) is that you are basically telling them to stop giving us warning signs that they are scared, feel uncomfortable and for particular dogs feel like they are being molested. lol 
Telling them to not bark or growl, to be quiet- is telling them to stop the communication that they are over threshold, but it will NOT change the way they feel, they will still be fearful but it won't be as obvious, and that is where the dogs who look like they just switch from fine to suddenly biting. You know those dogs who are suddenly "fixed" from their aggression, and are laying down and being "calm" its them actually shutting down or not communicating with us- which if it gets to a certain point the dog takes no more- and bites. 
For Zelda, I am basically working on changing her response to unfamiliar people from one of fear to one of calmness and being okay with the situation. During this process i need to keep her safe and people. I am changing that emotional state of fearfulness which in lots of dog cases can and does lead to aggression. Thankfully Zelda gives lots of signals (barking, growling, lip curls) and calming signals (yawning, sniffing ground, looking other way, etc.) Which i do not want to stop, because it lets me know when its over her threshold and this is important not to stop, as it can lead to an unpredictable biter. Which is never easy to work with.. *instead of trying to change her reaction to strangers, i want to change her entire emotional response (fear), because that is what is causing her reactions.* 



Amurphy26 said:


> Thanks everyone. I kind of feel like I'm getting to the next step worth her and that's where we're stumbling. I can keep her calm when people walk by and focused on me (I recently discovered if I make noises like mooing like a cow she completely relaxes!) but unfortunately the better behaved she is the more people want to approach so I really need to come up with a plan. I'm probably too nice to the stranger and should be thinking of my dog more.
> 
> I'm going to look at getting her a t shirt or something on her lead which clearly says dog in training and see if that helps.
> 
> ...


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Immediate physical reprimand for misbehaving is positive punishment.
> 
> We agree. You have your terminology wrong.
> 
> Correction is a very very vague term.



Most people have a bad connotation with the word punishment. It's associated with negative emotions (anger, frustration, revenge etc) and an after the fact - ongoing process of senseless repercussion.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I'll qualify myself just this once. I have 22 dogs in training ATM. Of those 6 had a chief complaint of leash reactivity to either other dogs on the walk or cars or both. Of those 6 that have been here for 1 and a half weeks none are showing the reactive behavior anymore or fear of dogs or cars or anything of the sort. It's pretty much done (I'm still watching and waiting for relapse). The rest of the time they're here they'll just learn obedience, manners, and play with each other in the yard.
> 
> Work on it for months if you want with BAT or LAT or CAT IN THE HAT but it's all CRAP.


Sorry man I was not challenging you??

Just offering another point of view. I have had "this" problem with one dog. And he has"Ataxia" so choke chains and prongs were not an option for me.

Leerburgh is certainly not a Positive only trainer but I found him before I found this board.

Nears as I could tell the only thing required was time and keeping people out of his? Not really any "skill" required, other than the ability to walk a dog on a loose leash and keep people out of his. Did the same with other dogs (move on and ignore) and dog reactivity was never a problem I had to deal with.

My thinking is it's pretty much a "idiot" resistant approach (nothing is idiot proof, ), No need for correctly timed corrections.

Did not mean to single you out, must be my approach? I really tick them off the "behaviourist" on Boxerworld!

One of them has "issues" with the Sit on dog thing!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, if someone wants to chat with YOU, that is good. Tell the person, that your dog is in training, and to ignore him. Do not stare at him, and have your conversation. Instead of waiting for your dog to react, tell your dog what you want the dog to do. SIT, DOWN, whatever. But take the focus off the dog. And as people talk to you (keep it short at first) the dog should visibly relax, then move on. No petting for now. 

Of course if the dog is barking and lunging at the other person, without the person approaching the dog, without the person staring at the dog, then protect your dog, by keeping everyone safe.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Actually, if someone wants to chat with YOU, that is good. Tell the person, that your dog is in training, and to ignore him. Do not stare at him, and have your conversation. Instead of waiting for your dog to react, tell your dog what you want the dog to do. SIT, DOWN, whatever. But take the focus off the dog. And as people talk to you (keep it short at first) the dog should visibly relax, then move on. No petting for now.


Worked for me!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> The problem with correcting, punishing or even attempting to change a growl or bark from a dog who is fearful reactive (which is what most dogs are when aggressive, and its usually quite obvious!) is that you are basically telling them to stop giving us warning signs that they are scared, feel uncomfortable and for particular dogs feel like they are being molested. lol
> Telling them to not bark or growl, to be quiet- is telling them to stop the communication that they are over threshold, but it will NOT change the way they feel, they will still be fearful but it won't be as obvious, and that is where the dogs who look like they just switch from fine to suddenly biting. You know those dogs who are suddenly "fixed" from their aggression, and are laying down and being "calm" its them actually shutting down or not communicating with us- which if it gets to a certain point the dog takes no more- and bites.
> For Zelda, I am basically working on changing her response to unfamiliar people from one of fear to one of calmness and being okay with the situation. During this process i need to keep her safe and people. I am changing that emotional state of fearfulness which in lots of dog cases can and does lead to aggression. Thankfully Zelda gives lots of signals (barking, growling, lip curls) and calming signals (yawning, sniffing ground, looking other way, etc.) Which i do not want to stop, because it lets me know when its over her threshold and this is important not to stop, as it can lead to an unpredictable biter. Which is never easy to work with.. *instead of trying to change her reaction to strangers, i want to change her entire emotional response (fear), because that is what is causing her reactions.*


It is a much faster and better process to get rid of the reactivity first and then counter condition while the dog isn't going insane.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Baillif said:


> It is a much faster and better process to get rid of the reactivity first and then counter condition while the dog isn't going insane.


Could be something to it Mr Baillif!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There's definitely something to it. I'll give you an example of how it can go although this isn't necessarily the case with a dog it often could be.

There was a dog that came in recently. It was an English bulldog/pit bull mix or something of that sort. Socialization didn't happen and the dog became fear aggressive of people and then was leash reactive because the owner or trigger people positively rewarded the dogs aggression with adding distance. On top of that the owner was tightening the leash and basically using back pressure on the line like you would if you were agitating a dog for a bite.

They went to a really good positive reinforcement only trainer in this area that tried to counter condition at threshold and all that crap and they could never get the dog under control. She did do a good job teaching him flashy fast recalls down sit and all that mess though.

So the dog gets to us. We had to make friends because he wanted to kill everyone on staff. Once I built up trust and won him over with some natural balance I put an e collar on him and started punishing him for every reaction or act of aggression he made toward anybody.

About 10 stims and a week into it we had him at our cookouts loose off leash unmuzzled. Could take him for walks in public and joggers were running by him on trails and not only was he not reactive he was comfortable and relaxed. He was still reserved around strangers but quickly warmed up to new people. In any case he wasn't biting anybody.

So how did this happen? Simple. The counter conditioning the positive reinforcement trainer used worked. However the reactivity was an operant behavior at that point. It happened because it was trained into the dog like a reflex. The reasons for the behavior formation may have been mostly gone but the behavior remained until punished to eradication which in that case happened very very quickly.

A behavior like leash reactivity easily becomes self reinforcing. It maybe starts because the dog is uncomfortable and then barks out of fear. The trigger pulls away out of fear or concern or the handler moves the dog away and the dog gets a surge of adrenaline followed by a rush of victory endorphins. Might as well be doing heroin. It's why it's so important to interrupt that process and punish it so that it stops occurring. Then the counter conditioning can happen with a dog that isn't stark raving mad.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I have perfected the look of death. People usually won't approach after seeing it. 

If people are passing and I'm not sure what their intentions are. I will have the dog sit/stay while looking as unapproachable as possible. I also have a vest that says "do not pet". My dog is very sweet. I doubt he would bite someone unless they did something very aggressive around him. I don't want to take any chances though.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Not to derail this thread, but I do have a genuine question for Baillif.

Once you punish a fearful dog's reactivity, what do you do next?

My question assuming the dog genuinely is fearful, once you have disallowed its reaction to fear, what next?

You always highlight the positive punishment in your solutions to these problems... are you saying you can positively punish away the emotion of fear?


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## BorderKelpie (Apr 26, 2010)

Baillif said:


> There's definitely something to it. I'll give you an example of how it can go although this isn't necessarily the case with a dog it often could be.
> 
> There was a dog that came in recently. It was an English bulldog/pit bull mix or something of that sort. Socialization didn't happen and the dog became fear aggressive of people and then was leash reactive because the owner or trigger people positively rewarded the dogs aggression with adding distance. On top of that the owner was tightening the leash and basically using back pressure on the line like you would if you were agitating a dog for a bite.
> 
> ...


Thank you! All of a sudden, things make sense now. 

You've explained it well, it's about the balance. I think I can work on fixing my reactive dog once and for all.  We've gone overboard, time to bring it back around. 

cool


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I definitely agree with, creating more distance rewards the dog. I've found BAT2 much more effective.

Bailiff I can definitely see how that approach would work and it is a different one to the trainers I was referring to. Didn't want to tar you all with the same brush.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

atravis said:


> Not to derail this thread, but I do have a genuine question for Baillif.
> 
> Once you punish a fearful dog's reactivity, what do you do next?
> 
> ...


You're not punishing fear. You can't punish an emotion. You are punishing a reaction. When you are approaching a situation the dog normally would have reacted in before punishment was applied you can emotionally support your dog as they are being successful and when they make it past a ways without incident you can have a freaking party. Food, praise, toy whatever. Let that dog know they did the right thing. It isn't long before they get over whatever it was.

The other thing you'll find is most dogs that show reactivity are not doing it out of fear anymore. They're doing it because that's what they did that's what they do and uninterrupted that's what they'll continue to do.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Baillif said:


> The other thing you'll find is most dogs that show reactivity are not doing it out of fear anymore. They're doing it because that's what they did that's what they do and uninterrupted that's what they'll continue to do.


Yes, and the other thing is, is the dog actually showing fear? How do you know? Extreme cases are obvious, just as extreme aggression is obvious. But when you have a dog barking, lunging and pulling without those extreme signs, then how do you know the dog isn't showing something else, like maybe bad manners or excitement - or both, lol. I'd guess that most of this behavior is easy to stop if you can nip it in the bud - but then gets progressively more difficult when it gets labeled wrong, excused away, and managed instead of accepting it and dealing with it in a timely manner.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right it doesnt matter what the label is with leash aggression or aggression in general. Aggression is aggression and aggression responds to punishment unless it is a medical issue. 

People put terms to behaviors like separation anxiety to make a dog seem like a victim of some sort of mental disease. You know what 99% of separation anxiety cases really are? Its a spoiled dog that learned it could escape confinement by throwing a temper tantrum until the owner felt sorry for it or got tired of the noise. Then maybe it learned to escape crates and would go so far as to break teeth in the attempt, or a dog that throws a fit until its owners come back because it worked at some point in the past. Its operant behavior because at some point it worked.

Should just call it like it is. Dog is being a spoiled jackass because the handler was an enabler.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

LOL! But that's pretty harsh criticism that not too many people want to hear.  You might be able to get away with in IRL since people are coming to you for help with their unruly beasts, and you're giving them back a well trained dog that they can enjoy. IME, people don't want to be told that they're mucking up their dog with their poor handling. Just the other day I noticed this with a good friend of mine, who was asking for a"sit" before throwing my dog's water toy - argh, she didn't wait for the sit!!! She had a long face when I took the toy away, and told her this was a very bad practice. Sigh, what can you do?


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Right, but on that same note, how do you know it ISN'T fear?

I've not trying to start an argument on whether or not punishment works. It does.

What I want to know, is it fair to assume a dog is just being a "jackass" because its expressing a behavior that we don't like?

For example, you adopt a dog from the shelter. Dog throws a fit and lunges and attempts to bite anyone that moves a hand towards it to touch it, including yourself. 

Do you just punish the reaction? What if, this particular dog, had been severely beaten its entire life by its prior owner, who only eventually dumped it because the dog finally lashed out and bit them (dog operantly conditioning itself, as you said, self-reinforced biting = freedom from pain). 

I understand these are "what ifs", but I do want to know your process here. Do you treat EVERY case of reactivity the same? Punish the reaction, praise the aftermath? Do you assume _all_ dogs are just being "jackasses"?


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I am headed back to start reading comments...but I WAS GOING TO POST THIS EXACT same thing today! At least I'm not the only one dealing with it


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think you have to look at the subtle behaviors the dog displays way before the more obvious ones, and go from there. If you wait until the last moment to analyze the behavior, then you're not going to learn anything about the dog's motivation.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I have learned to say "no" when people ask if they can pet roxy -- I've gotten past the giving wordy explanations to just a "no"...but when people stop to talk to me and she's going bat **** crazy -- that's where I'm stumped. As long as we are walking and nobody approaches us or makes eye contact or talks..she's good..the minute somebody strikes up a conversation with me ...it starts. I've moved back to the harness since the pulling pretty much stopped ( except when we first get out of the car to "meet" and "greet" with the rest of the dogs we walk with)...they are all pulling to get to each other like they haven't seen each other in years when in fact it's only been 24 hours...after that walk is great as long as people don't talk or approach us


and edit -- the ONLY dog that walks that is people friendly is a labordoodle ...the rest of them all "react" the same way to people talking/approaching. ..so it's not just Roxy --- and to mention this is the same dog who when we go to the dog park spends 98% of the time mingling with the other owners..looking for pets and conversation.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

atravis said:


> Right, but on that same note, how do you know it ISN'T fear?
> 
> I've not trying to start an argument on whether or not punishment works. It does.
> 
> ...


You have to read the dog to know where it's coming from, but generally it doesn't matter. Get rid of reaction first then counter condition if necessary.

But a case like that? Real talk? If you see a dog like that at the shelter then don't rescue. Put the dog down. There are tons and tons of dogs out there with zero issues or at least way more minor ones to adopt instead that take way less resources time and money and IMO it is severely misguided folly to waste time on severely troubled dogs when there are great ones with great temperaments being put down all the time.

Now if you've already made that mistake or someone's taken that mistake and is committed to sticking it out and dropped it in my lap and they say hey train this dog (it has happened several times here already so I have experience with those dogs) generally the first step is build trust and relationship with the dog first. That's the same step you have to take with any dog though. After that it depends on the dog. A case like that needs to be evaluated on a dog on dog basis.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

If it helps your discussion the OP (me) is not a jackass or an enabler, is aware she's not been the best handler, is working on reactivity and making progress with positive reinforcement and the dog is reacting out of fear. Her response to being chased or confronted by another dog or by a strong male handler is pure fear. She stops eating, shakes, squeals and basically flips out. She does not lunge or attack she retreats in to herself. She was attacked by a few dogs over the first year of her life. When on a lead with me she used to react every single time regardless of distance from trigger, she even reacted to the smell of another dog. We're at the stage now where she doesn't react at people unless they approach her. Success through positive training so far. There's been lots of helpful advice.

Cheers 


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lyssa, I think that if all these dogs are reacting like this, and they're all part of the same pack walk, then they all need to learn the "quiet" command, lol. Seriously, there's no reason for the carrying on. I'm not discounting that some dogs will be panicking and bucking to get out of the collar to flee from whatever they're afraid of - but that doesn't sound like what's going on.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Interesting Baillif, thank you for the responses.

OP, I'm happy to hear you are making progress and doing will with your dog.

Wish I had something better to input towards your original question- honestly, I don't have people come up to me very often when I'm out with my dogs. Maybe its just a vibe, no clue.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

It sounds like I'm being too polite. Part of the problem is my other dog is a therapy dog and very friendly. So when they see me with a dog they expect a nice reaction. People think if you have one well behaved then all your dogs must be. Unfortunately it's not worked out like that. 


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

OP, have you considered getting a vest or something for the dog that says "IN TRAINING" or "STAY BACK"? Something like that. There will always be people who ignore such things, but it might keep some of them away. 

I personally don't like people touching or coming up to my dogs while we are out training, aggressive or not. That's mine and the dog's time together, to work on whatever it is we're out there working on. I don't like having to break that up. Again, not generally a problem I run into, but if I was having it I might invest in something big and obvious that people could clearly understand that I wanted them to give us distance.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I'm sorry if some of this sounds insulting - it shouldn't be. I know for a fact that I'm an enabler supreme with my loudmouth - who isn't reacting out of fear, but from his happy jackass attitude. He loves the sound of his voice, that's all. And so do I, for the most part. He's hilarious! But he can take it too far too, and needs to be reminded that the entire world doesn't share my enthusiasm for his constant commentary. 

But your dog is different, and has some issues. I read how your vet manhandled her and that's not going to help her trust strangers at all. But I still think that if people want to stop to chat with you - _not_ pet your dog - then this can help her in the long run, to accept them in close proximity.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm definitely not insulted, just didn't want people to think I'm an idiot or at the beginning of this 'journey'. I'm quite interested in all the different training methods and how they work. I've no trainer or classes and live in a remote island so this is a long game for us and I rely quite a lot on info from books and this forum.

I like the idea of a vest. I think I will give that a try


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't think folks are thinking your an idiot! I also don't think what your seeing is unusual? I raised my GSD the same as I did my other dogs, bullies. They had no people problems but my GSD did??

I did not need a trainer or tools, it was pretty much conflict free. A vest is nice but you would need to buck up and just keep people out of his face.

Here is an additional approach post 12 :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...k-she-shy-cause-shes-chick-2.html#post4200098


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks Chip18. One thing I've found interesting with her is her behaviour towards people we are with. For example, I was walking our other dog on a busy beach and bumped into some friends. We walked along chatting and my husband came down with the reactive dog. Normally she would of gone crazy at them but because me and the other dog were already there she treated them like they were her long lost friends. We can't do every meet like that but it gives me hope and in my mind confirms that she doesn't have enough confidence in me as an owner so I know what we need to work on. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Lolol this is amazing. If I had more balls I'd try it


I take this back. It's amazing to do to people that are overstepping boundaries, like you ask them not to come close or not to pet and they still do it. 

But if someone just wants to say something nice then being rude is not the way to go. 
I haven't had problems like this. People always ask and respect being told they can't. 

I also always walk either looking at my dog or the floor. Helps from having people want to talk to you. 

In fairness, you come out with a dog like this and people will be drawn to you. You can't act like you're a superstar being harassed when you're not asking for it. Most people just want to admire your dog. Most people take no for an answer.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

The worst one was when a school girl came rushing up to us and immediately bent down and started patting her. I shouted to her don't come over to the dog but she just kept coming. She thought it was my other dog who she had seen in the high school. My dog didn't have time to react and when my blood pressure returned to normal we had a lovely chat.....until 2 horses came cantering down the pavement.....in the middle of the town! 


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

If the dog is in public why should the public make way for the dog ? This makes no common sense at all 
(I have a dog aggressive male who is highly protective of myself He came that way See some trainer charged alot of money ruining a well bread dog Sch at a year of age A wip and a sleeve Because of this I am the fifth owner of this dog I have taken dogs such as this for over twenty years now )
The advice mostly is crap It is the handlers responsibility to have care and control of the dog No Exceptions 
A suggestion pay closer attention to the signals the dog is reciving from the handler What signals the dog is transmitting to the handler The distance from the stressor needs to be increased to a comfortable level for both dog and handler


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> If the dog is in public why should the public make way for the dog ? This makes no common sense at all
> (I have a dog aggressive male who is highly protective of myself He came that way See some trainer charged alot of money ruining a well bread dog Sch at a year of age A wip and a sleeve Because of this I am the fifth owner of this dog I have taken dogs such as this for over twenty years now )
> The advice mostly is crap It is the handlers responsibility to have care and control of the dog No Exceptions
> A suggestion pay closer attention to the signals the dog is reciving from the handler What signals the dog is transmitting to the handler The distance from the stressor needs to be increased to a comfortable level for both dog and handler


A few of . and , might have helped.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol canyadoit you just can't catch a break on this forum. Everyone wants to educate you


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm not asking any member of the public to make way for my dog. Simply asking when I say don't approach my dog, you don't approach. Not sure where that came from as the whole topic was on what to do when a passer by WANTS to approach. 


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Here is what I do 
1 dog sits 
2 person shakes my hand 
3 dog lays down on cue word
4 if person wants to pat dog dog sits on cue word The dog is not encouraged to interact with general public
My routine each time


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Lalachka I am honered they take time to pass their knowledge of my errors to me I sincerely extend my thanks
None answered though If you dog is in public why should the public make way for your dog ? 
My answer is 
They do not need to at all in anyway To suggest other wise is foolishness


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Something to try Get several folks you know explain that they will be guinea pigs for the dog Using them expose the dog to the to lots of commotion flighty movement anything that elevates the stress level Keep working the dog this way in time it will become stable 
The dog should be rested well before this exercise is started As it tires the fight or flight will start to show Before that shows the exercise must stop This state of mental exhaustion needs to be crowded to bring results If crossed and the dog starts to shut dwn you went backwards If not crowed close enough you went no were It is a fine line between the two Each dog is different each time this is done
I care how your dog preforms in public Simply because how the public perceives the gsd effects my dogs and myself 
If no public interaction is wanted with your dog while in public try a cage muzzle There is no mistaking the message these send no one but the foolish will approach the dog then imo
Apologies for my gramer spelling etc in advance


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So what do you or your do if it's a kid in a public place that just runs up to you? My male was dog reactive, but has always liked people and loves kids. Shortly after he got past this he and I were tested. I got him to the point where we could run to the pet store, get whatever and leave. One day we went and they were having an adoption event, so there were dogs everywhere, I took a deep breath and walked in with all the confidence I could and he did ok, but there was no time for him to focus. I almost made it to the checkout when a lady approached me, Midnite knows to sit as soon as someone approaches and he did, he ended up facing all the dogs. The lady was mentally challenged and kept talking, I am not rude but I could feel the fear creeping up that he would react(he was never quiet when he reacted, he sounded vicious). Just when I thought I could get away the lady's three kids came running up to us. Now my fear is that the kids will be in the middle of his reaction. I managed to stay calm and confident and then I looked down and he had laid down on his own with these kids all over him. The lady goes on to tell me that all three kids were mentally challenged in some way or another. I'm thinking how do I walk away without being rude? Midnite never reacted the whole time and dogs were within a few feet of him, that was a huge turning point for us. I don't know if it was me remaining confident or if he sensed something about the kids. The whole point is that kids tend to just run up to dogs and any dog owner needs to be prepared. If there is any question to how the dog will react to people then the dog should not be in a public place or should be muzzled, especially if kids might be present.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Exactly. If you're not sure of your dog will react then muzzle or don't take him there. Bottom line is you can't control everyone else. Control what you can, your dog and yourself


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Or simply make a decision to turn and walk away...as rude as it might be....if, as you say, you cannot trust yourself or the dog....turning and appreciating thresholds might serve everyone better at particular times. However, it sounds as if your pooch did great and impressed you with his "cool" when you were a bit doubtful....you now have a new standard as he has proven himself in a difficult situation for many.....good job.

Onward and upward.

SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Or simply make a decision to turn and walk away...as rude as it might be....if, as you say, you cannot trust yourself or the dog....turning and appreciating thresholds might serve everyone better at particular times. However, it sounds as if your pooch did great and impressed you with his "cool" when you were a bit doubtful....you now have a new standard as he has proven himself in a difficult situation for many.....good job.
> 
> Onward and upward.
> 
> SuperG


Shortly after that he became a certified therapy dog and more recently both of them passed the GSD temperament test with flying colors. I did take that experience and moved forward with confidence. I have him to thank for that. I was amazed at how many GSD's couldn't get past the first two tests. Those were a stranger touching me in a friendly way and a person petting the dog. Some dogs were just terrified and barking and backing up.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Amurphy26 said:


> The worst one was when a school girl came rushing up to us and immediately bent down and started patting her. I shouted to her don't come over to the dog but she just kept coming. She thought it was my other dog who she had seen in the high school. My dog didn't have time to react and when my blood pressure returned to normal we had a lovely chat.....until 2 horses came cantering down the pavement.....in the middle of the town!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ok that falls under the heading of "crap happens" but it's an opportunity to learn!

Your dog should have been to your side or behind you (which I did with Rocky but pretty much not the norm) and you should have stepped in front of your dog.

If you lose it, you can freak your dog out and he could respond "inappropriately!" Rest assured kids freaked me out to but using the "Who Pets" thing kids or adults my dog doesn't care!


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## Kolby (Jul 1, 2014)

I’m certainly no expert but I would work on reducing the chance of a negative reaction by building value in a positive reaction.

Here’s a simple method I recently used when working with a dog who was highly reactive and fearfully aggressive towards other dogs in close proximity; the goal of the exercise was to have my dog (Kolby) approach and greet the reactive dog (Shadow) without any issues. I would have tried a similar approach with a people reactive dog. 

We began the exercise with the two dogs roughly 150ft apart to ensure Shadow was in his safe zone. We then walked both dogs in the same direction while maintaining the distance apart. After each successful turn we decreased the distance, praised and rewarded, then repeated. Any time Shadow appeared even remotely distracted by Kolby’s presence his owner would call his name, wait for a head turn, and immediately reward. If Shadow refused to look away after the initial call the owner would simply turn around and walk back in the opposite direction (to avoid devaluing the recall and reduce the chance of a freak-out). As Shadow became more comfortable with the exercise we started walking towards each other and adding sits/downs while waiting for the other owner + dog to pass by (always praising for correct decisions). We eventually shortened the distance until Shadow was calmly within a feet of Kolby, followed by snout to snout.

Like I said, it’s a very simple approach but it has worked well for me quite a few times. 

You can do many variations of this exercise just remember to control your environment when starting out. Ask a friend (preferably someone your dog has never met) to meet you on a field and have them start at a distance away from you. Play a highly rewarding focus/decision making game with your GSD while your friend gradually approaches - decreasing the distance with each successful trial. You want to minimize your losses from the start so change the criteria if you see any signs of unwanted behavior. The point is for your dog to focus on the task and not your friend (the stranger). Continue to cycle through until your friend is within arm’s reach and is able to approach you. This doesn't necessarily mean they should have a conversation with you; maybe a handshake is all your dog will be able to tolerate at first. It may also take several sessions depending on the severity of your situation so be patient with the process and make adjustments as needed.

Allowing aggressive reactions to happen reinforces them. But avoiding strangers won't solve the problem ether. Controlling your environment while in training and slowly transitioning it to the read world may be what your team needs. Again, no expert here, just going off of some ideas that have worked for me.

Hope some of this helps! 
Cheers and best of luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

There is a "hugh" difference between "ignoring" people and avoiding people. My guy was taught to "ignore" both. And that’s what he does.

I have taken him to parks for proofing. Other dogs can approach him with out issue, he isn't allowed to play with "strange dogs" but he has no issues with them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kolby said:


> I’m certainly no expert but I would work on reducing the chance of a negative reaction by building value in a positive reaction.
> 
> Here’s a simple method I recently used when working with a dog who was highly reactive and fearfully aggressive towards other dogs in close proximity; the goal of the exercise was to have my dog (Kolby) approach and greet the reactive dog (Shadow) without any issues. I would have tried a similar approach with a people reactive dog.
> 
> ...


I used this approach with Midnite also. The problem is that most people aren't going to let their dog be subjected to a possible issue. I was lucky enough to have a neighbor with a stable GSD. Midnite barked from a distance but got quieter as we got closer then started barking again. Once he was able to smell the other dog he calmed down even more. I don't allow my dogs to meet other dogs face to face, so we positioned the dogs so Midnite could sniff his butt. Within 10 minutes the guy took both dogs for a jog, he had one on each side. By the time they came back they were next to each other. This gave me lots of hope and more confidence.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks again for the advice. I like the idea of teaching her to move and stay behind me and ignore. A lot of what I've been doing and how I teach her has involved little lead handling and allowing her to make a decision because as soon as I put tension on the lead she reacts so it's involved a lot of 'watch me'. For example we see a dog or person coming towards us and I have to stop to get her focus or move out the way so I stop walking. Lead is usually tight now so I step in to it to relieve tension on it. After a few seconds she automatically looks at me, is rewarded and we step to the side, I ask for a down or sit which she does and she keeps focus on me till the person passes. It's taken a long time to get to this stage. Set ups with neighbours etc like was described wouldn't help here as this is when strangers just walk up but thanks for the info.
Thankfully there is only one area here where kids play so we don't walk there much now. We're not avoiding it just because of the kids but also because of the horses. If she reacts and spooks a horse there could be serious injury so it wouldn't be responsible for me to take her there. I suppose it's more a question of moving on to the next stage. She doesn't react to people now unless they get within 2 metres or less of her and are heading towards her. I don't feel a muzzle is the answer because I guess I have to accept that them approaching is the only way we're going to get passed the next step and they won't do this if she has a muzzle. As her general training progress she's more responsive to me so when she does react it lasts a shorter time and is brought under control quicker. These are reactions. She acts without thinking. Example - someone has approached without warning, she reacts by barking and lunges, I pull her back, tell her down and ask for focus. She does it and 10 seconds later is lying relaxed at my feet. It's taken a while to get to this so now it's all about dealing with the actual reaction. Because she is fearful of men in particular I feel I really struggle in this area. A deep man voice stops her instantly, before she reacts but I don't have one of those or upper body strength and prong and e collars aren't for me. 




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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Amurphy26 said:


> Normally she would of gone crazy at them but because me and the other dog were already there she treated them like they were her long lost friends.


This is interesting. Do you think it was because she's better behaved when your DH has control? Or did she already know these people, so they weren't such a threat to her? Obviously nobody can tell over the internet exactly what's going on, but I'm wondering if there's a big difference between how you and DH react to her reactivity.


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## Kolby (Jul 1, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> There is a "hugh" difference between "ignoring" people and avoiding people. My guy was taught to "ignore" both. And that’s what he does.
> 
> I have taken him to parks for proofing. Other dogs can approach him with out issue, he isn't allowed to play with "strange dogs" but he has no issues with them.


There is also a huge difference in teaching an aggressively reactive dog to ignore compared to one without any underlying issues. 

Now I’m not making a claim about which side of the spectrum your dog started on (because I don’t know) but in regards to Amurphy26’s dog, it would help the dog and the owner alike if the root of the reaction was addressed, not masked.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Amurphy26 said:


> Thanks again for the advice. I like the idea of teaching her to move and stay behind me and ignore. A lot of what I've been doing and how I teach her has involved little lead handling and allowing her to make a decision because as soon as I put tension on the lead she reacts so it's involved a lot of 'watch me'. For example we see a dog or person coming towards us and I have to stop to get her focus or move out the way so I stop walking. Lead is usually tight now so I step in to it to relieve tension on it. After a few seconds she automatically looks at me, is rewarded and we step to the side, I ask for a down or sit which she does and she keeps focus on me till the person passes. It's taken a long time to get to this stage. Set ups with neighbours etc like was described wouldn't help here as this is when strangers just walk up but thanks for the info.
> Thankfully there is only one area here where kids play so we don't walk there much now. We're not avoiding it just because of the kids but also because of the horses. If she reacts and spooks a horse there could be serious injury so it wouldn't be responsible for me to take her there. I suppose it's more a question of moving on to the next stage. She doesn't react to people now unless they get within 2 metres or less of her and are heading towards her. I don't feel a muzzle is the answer because I guess I have to accept that them approaching is the only way we're going to get passed the next step and they won't do this if she has a muzzle. As her general training progress she's more responsive to me so when she does react it lasts a shorter time and is brought under control quicker. These are reactions. She acts without thinking. Example - someone has approached without warning, she reacts by barking and lunges, I pull her back, tell her down and ask for focus. She does it and 10 seconds later is lying relaxed at my feet. It's taken a while to get to this so now it's all about dealing with the actual reaction. Because she is fearful of men in particular I feel I really struggle in this area. A deep man voice stops her instantly, before she reacts but I don't have one of those or upper body strength and prong and e collars aren't for me.
> 
> 
> ...


A prong would go a long way here for control and confidence for you. It took me about 4 months to get my dog not reactive. I didn't just take him for a walk and wait for people/dogs to pass. In fact for the first couple months we sat 20 feet from thd entrance of the pet store and on a park bench. We stayed at that distance until no reaction then moved closer. During this time we worked on watch me and leave its. Then we started walking around the park. When a dog was approaching I would put him in a sit. Sometimes I used watch me, then I started taking treats and throwing them in the opposite direction, he would be so busy looking for the treats that he wouldn't even bother with the dog, this helped with him getting used to dogs within 10 ft or so. Then the last phase was actually walking him and NOT putting him in a sit when a dog approached. At first I would see the dog and do a u turn with my dog telling him let's go in a very happy voice. I went through a phase of using all these things together to. So I think I did things exactly opposite of you and didn't shoot for the walking first, but the conditioning of the dog for a walk. He was finally able to start classes and he can sit or lay down with dogs brushing against him without problems. It's a long road.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kolby said:


> There is also a huge difference in teaching an aggressively reactive dog to ignore compared to one without any underlying issues.
> 
> Now I’m not making a claim about which side of the spectrum your dog started on (because I don’t know) but in regards to Amurphy26’s dog, it would help the dog and the owner alike if the root of the reaction was addressed, not masked.


Agree! 

Yeah you don't want to call out my dog! He is on the record here..."what would my dog do!!!"

He was my intro to "Red Flag" dogs! Quite a bit different experience for me! Serious inter pact aggression issues and then "people issues on top of that! Suffice to say had I not "opted" to keep him...he would have most likely been put down! 

His "people issues" did not show up for 7 months, got him as a rescue at 7 months. A low growl greeted company for the first time!!?? 

That was as far as that got!!! He never got a chance to go further!!!

What I outlined is what "we" did and it worked out just fine. 

As llombardo, stated it's not easy to find other dog owners willing to use there dog as a "_guinea_ pig"

I did find someone in my neighbour that would do just that, had I know about a muzzle for my Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab at the time, I would have taken him up on it. But "I" was not willing to take the chance with someone else’s dog! 

So I tend to go solo, my dog is safe in public, safe around other dogs... he looks to "me" to me for direction!


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Lyssa, I think that if all these dogs are reacting like this, and they're all part of the same pack walk, then they all need to learn the "quiet" command, lol. Seriously, there's no reason for the carrying on. I'm not discounting that some dogs will be panicking and bucking to get out of the collar to flee from whatever they're afraid of - but that doesn't sound like what's going on.


 
oh it's a scene -- Roxy and Sophie are not social butterflies ( my shepherd and the 1 labordoodle) ...they will ignore people walking past...but if they start walking towards us ...hackles up ...barking commences. Roxy really doesn't lunge at people she's more vocal. Sophie -- she's more on guard...I am 99.5% sure there would NEVER be any attempt to bite...it's more warning noise. Then we have the socialite Bella who loves everybody ...there are no strangers in Bella's life as long as they are petting her. ( I need that happy medium cuz I'm really not that fond of having an over friendly dog either)


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> This is interesting. Do you think it was because she's better behaved when your DH has control? Or did she already know these people, so they weren't such a threat to her? Obviously nobody can tell over the internet exactly what's going on, but I'm wondering if there's a big difference between how you and DH react to her reactivity.



This is fairly typical when either of us is holding her and the other person has already done the introductions without her present. She's the same when she comes back from a walk with one of us and there is someone new in the house. She loves them like a long lost friend. 

With regards to addressing the root of the problem with this dog it all started with our next door neighbours Pappilon attacking her through the fence from when she was 12 weeks old. The neighbour refused to do anything about it and we've since moved. Following on from that she was making massive improvements until at about 11 months when she was chased and pinned twice on one walk by another GSD when she was playing with her sister. Since then she's been unable to relax around other dogs. 

Prong collars - I'm never going to use one. I've heard about the success people have with them but I won't use one. 


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## Nikkavy (Nov 25, 2012)

*This might be my problem...*

Thanks Bailiff for the story & explanation.

I have a 2YO spayed female white shepherd who is sometimes reactive on leash especially when walking near our apartment complex. Most reactivity is focused on dogs - she goes hackles up, uses her big dog bark for most any dog she sees on the street. Mostly I think this is wanting to investigate (she also barks at things "out of place" like someone's trash bag in the hallway or someone far away she can't see well). There are a couple of dogs she really dislikes and I think her bark is a little different in those cases.

However she is always friendly (if rather disinterested) with other dogs at her daycare/training, our classes, and the dog park. She likes to focus on the tennis ball or sniffing everything more than playing with other dogs but is not mean to them. I discussed this with my trainer who works her as part of weekly daycare, trainer says she can't offer much advice because she NEVER does this with her even on leash in the city when other dogs lunge at her. She's offered to do a private session and come to my home, we may do that sometime soon.

I do correct her and walk the other way when she barks/lunges/pulls at other dogs on the street. With the headcollar I am more gentle but with the prong she gets a good strong "straight up" correction as much as I can manage though sometimes it's also a backward pull just to get her to move the way I want. She does better on the headcollar but really hates it even after 8 months.

Any suggestions to get her to just stop this altogether? I have tackled her a few times and held her down as our trainer does for jumping/acting out. Works but the memory must fade and she's back at it after a few days.

Thanks again, this thread and your comments are very helpful.






Baillif said:


> There's definitely something to it. I'll give you an example of how it can go although this isn't necessarily the case with a dog it often could be.
> 
> There was a dog that came in recently. It was an English bulldog/pit bull mix or something of that sort. Socialization didn't happen and the dog became fear aggressive of people and then was leash reactive because the owner or trigger people positively rewarded the dogs aggression with adding distance. On top of that the owner was tightening the leash and basically using back pressure on the line like you would if you were agitating a dog for a bite.
> 
> ...


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

can u take off her bandana while walking? it just attracts attention 

dog clothes make people wantto chat


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