# Landlord issues



## Psalm 23

Hello! I am wanting to get help and honest answers on what to do about my landlord. I have a couple of major health issues and have documentation for all of them..I was told by my doctor that a service dog/emotional support dog would help dramatically..I adopted a wonderful german shepherd,he is 7 months and has already started home training and starts training with a professional trainer in two weeks. The issues is my landlord does not like large dogs,however I don't feel that a small dog would properly help me with the things I need help with. So my question is,how do I go about this? I truly do have major health issues,and I do not understand how a landlord can say no about a dog for someone with disabilities..I live in california,so I'm not sure if anyone knows if there are certain laws against discrimination? My landlord has 5 houses total and his mom lives in one of them with two large dogs;Im not sure if that helps me out at all..Im trying to handle this correctly so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!


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## martemchik

Legally...unless its in your lease to not have dogs over a certain size. He can't do anything at the moment. Now...once your lease is up, or near up, he can offer not to renew your lease.

Right now...your dog isn't a service dog. He's a service dog in training and its up to your landlord if he wants to allow him in your apartment. The dog is currently not protected by the ADA and so its up to the landlord to do what he wants. He's not discriminating against your disability in this case, so he's not breaking any laws. He's just telling you he doesn't want the dog on his property.

I'll tell you this, I'm like 99% sure that if you broke your lease over this, he wouldn't have any chance against you in court if he decided to come after you for the lost rent money. The courts tend to side with the tenants on most issues like this, and in your case, I don't see how any court wouldn't side with you.


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## Mister C

As suggested above, I would start by carefully reading the lease.

You might want to consider offering your landlord some additional security deposit to hedge against the possibility of your dog damaging his property. 

Most of the landlords I know are primarily concerned about protecting their financial interests. I love big dogs but they do have more potential (or at least a perception by some) to cause a larger amount of damage than a small dog. I am speaking about averages--all dogs are different and I have seen some toy dogs do major damage and GSDs do none at all. There is also a perception issue at work here.

What a landlord wants most is a tenant that pays on time, doesn't damage the property, and stays in the property for a long time. Each turnover costs money so by staying put you are increasing his margins. Hedge against increased risk from the GSD with a bigger security deposit and he might just drop the issue.

Best of luck to you.


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## DJEtzel

If you are disabled, you are legally allowed to have an Emotional Support Dog, which does NOT have public access rights, but does have housing (and I believe flight?) rights. You will want to talk to your landlord about the laws regarding Emotional Support Dogs, as this appears to be what you have.


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## Psalm 23

Thank y'all for your help!


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## DJEtzel

Check out the bottom of this article and look more into the "fair housing act"

Psychiatric Service Dogs & Emotional Support Animals: Access to Public Places & Other Settings | Nolo.com

Looks like you'll need a note from your doctor documenting such a need, but that would be all.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> If you are disabled, you are legally allowed to have an Emotional Support Dog, which does NOT have public access rights, but does have housing (and I believe flight?) rights. You will want to talk to your landlord about the laws regarding Emotional Support Dogs, as this appears to be what you have.


No...no you're not. Your disability has to be one that is covered by an emotional support dog. You shouldn't use this as a crutch until your dog is trained to deal with your actual disability.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> No...no you're not. Your disability has to be one that is covered by an emotional support dog. You shouldn't use this as a crutch until your dog is trained to deal with your actual disability.


You're right, I was vague. I meant that if the OP has a disability that her doctor says would be aided by a ESD, then she can legally have one and has housing rights. An ESD does not have to be task trained whatsoever. 

"shouldn't use it as a crutch"... What a thing to say about someone who is disabled and needs a Service dog or Emotional Support dog.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> You're right, I was vague. I meant that if the OP has a disability that her doctor says would be aided by a ESD, then she can legally have one and has housing rights. An ESD does not have to be task trained whatsoever.
> 
> "shouldn't use it as a crutch"... What a thing to say about someone who is disabled and needs a Service dog or Emotional Support dog.


Sorry I used bad language...at least I gave real legal advice rather advice on how to skirt the system.


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## Liesje

I agree with Mister C. My landlord said no pets until I offered to pay him $100 deposit per pet in addition to the security deposit and then he was happy to have 6 pets on the lease agreement. One of my puppies did do some damage but when we moved out we still got money back and he had money to fix what he wanted to fix (I agreed to everything on his list without dispute).


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## glowingtoadfly

Having an ESD with a doctor's note is not skirting the system.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> Sorry I used bad language...at least I gave real legal advice rather advice on how to skirt the system.


... That's a legal right. It's not skirting anything. There are federal LAWS pertaining to this. Sorry that you were WRONG about ESD rights and laws. 

eta; If the OP came here and said, "omg I love dogs and really find comfort in them and my landlord won't let me have one, what can I do!?" I certainly would not have offered this advice. She said she was disabled, her doctor recommended the dog. That means she can have an ESD and it has the right to live anywhere that may not normally allow dogs under the Fair Housing Act.


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## martemchik

Actually...if you really NEED a service dog NOT a ESD...but while that dog is in training you call it an ESD so that your landlord leaves you alone about it while you train said service dog (basically using the legal system to scare the landlord into doing what you want)...it's skirting the system.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think a dog can be both an ESD and a service dog in training. The two are not mutually exclusive and maybe the OP needs both.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> Actually...if you really NEED a service dog NOT a ESD...but while that dog is in training you call it an ESD so that your landlord leaves you alone about it while you train said service dog (basically using the legal system to scare the landlord into doing what you want)...it's skirting the system.


That isn't what anyone recommended, and the Dr. recommended an ESD. A dog can most certainly start off as an ESD if a Dr. signs off on it, and move on to be a SD with proper task training. That's what a LOT of people do and it is completely warranted and legal with the proper disabilities, which it appears the OP has.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> If you are disabled, you are legally allowed to have an Emotional Support Dog, which does NOT have public access rights, but does have housing (and I believe flight?) rights. You will want to talk to your landlord about the laws regarding Emotional Support Dogs, as this appears to be what you have.


You basically did...you have ZERO idea what the disability is, and without that knowledge recommended that the person call the dog an ESA because an ESA is much easier to pass by legally and much harder to question than an SD (doesn't need any actual trained task).


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## martemchik

The advice given is basically banking on the fact that the landlord will be too scared or just not willing to put up the money for a legal battle…when in fact, I just did a quick search of the issues and the landlord has a lot of rights when it comes to denying an ESA. Mostly due the fact that the dog was acquired BEFORE speaking with the landlord and letting the landlord know the issues at hand that might require one. A lot of this is also that the tenant would end up having to prove in court that there is a connection between the tenant’s disability, the ESA, and how “reasonable accommodations” (waiving a no pet clause) will lessen the effects of the person’s disability. On top of that…the accommodation needs to not have any undue financial burden on the landlord.
There are tons of reasons why you should do this the right way, talk with your landlord, and figure things out without threatening legal action or tricking people by using a law neither person understands. The moment you start using terms that YOU yourself don’t understand, and basically backing the other person into a corner with the legal system, is the moment you’re probably going to lose a lawsuit. The fact that the dog arrived BEFORE the landlord knew about any of this…is a huge issue in this case. Basically you’ve backed the landlord into a position where he has no say about anything that happens due to fear of a legal battle.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> You basically did...you have ZERO idea what the disability is, and without that knowledge recommended that the person call the dog an ESA because an ESA is much easier to pass by legally and much harder to question than an SD (doesn't need any actual trained task).


I don't need to know what the disability is. She said her Dr. recommended it. If not, she can't get a note and won't be able to give the note to the landlord, so she can't have the dog. There's no way she can "get away with it" without the note from the doctor, like I stated. ESDs are easier to prove because airlines and/or housing has to have a doctor's note for them, and SDs do not need such approval.


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## sehrgutcsg

We all love our dogs here, period. I see no reason that a dog will replace a psychologist or a psychiatrist. If your doctor is drugging you, then that needs to be addressed before the dog in training becomes the primary issue at hand. You will never get better by having a furry creature in your midst. The landlord is the third issue, far from important at this juncture.

You and your well being # 1.
Finding peace in between your ears # 2. 
Having a furry creature in the apartment, house or condo # 3.
Dealing with a landlord who is stubborn # 4.

See, I am happy right now, I don't care what other's think, do or say and especially how they feel.. See, I feel great irrespective of the external forces of the Universe... Do you > ?

SGCSG


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## martemchik

I want to add something else. OP said that they believe only a large dog will give them what they need in regards to a SD. Which makes me believe the disability is physical, not emotional or psychological. Which to me says, the dog will probably not qualify as an ESA. If it could qualify as an ESA because the disability is emotional/psychological…why does it have to be a large dog and not a smaller dog like the landlord has requested? Is a large dog any better at doing an “untrained task” than a small dog is?

That would have to be what the tenant would have to prove…how THAT particular dog is the one that needs to be the ESA. The landlord made an accommodation…he said small dog. But tenant is arguing a large dog is necessary. So you see how in this situation, ESA is not the clear cut/easy solution…and why it should never be the easy solution?


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> That would have to be what the tenant would have to prove…how THAT particular dog is the one that needs to be the ESA. The landlord made an accommodation…he said small dog. But tenant is arguing a large dog is necessary. So you see how in this situation, ESA is not the clear cut/easy solution…and why it should never be the easy solution?


I don't see it at all. It's a RIGHT. If the Dr. thinks a dog will help, they can write a note and the landlord doesn't get a say. It is illegal for him to say that the dog the Dr. signed off on as an ESD is not appropriate and can't stay there. End of story. I'm not sure why you think it's such a grey area. It's very black and white. It's either a Dr. prescribed (if you will) ESD or it's not.

eta; You can question the OPs disabilities all you want, but it's not fair or moral. They said they have more than one. One could be physical, one could be emotional/mental. They want the ESD to do mobility or task work in the future to aid a second disability, so they have every right to get a dog they want for the future that will also help aid them NOW.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> I don't see it at all. It's a RIGHT. If the Dr. thinks a dog will help, they can write a note and the landlord doesn't get a say. It is illegal for him to say that the dog the Dr. signed off on as an ESD is not appropriate and can't stay there. End of story. I'm not sure why you think it's such a grey area. It's very black and white. It's either a Dr. prescribed (if you will) ESD or it's not.
> 
> eta; You can question the OPs disabilities all you want, but it's not fair or moral. They said they have more than one. One could be physical, one could be emotional/mental. They want the ESD to do mobility or task work in the future to aid a second disability, so they have every right to get a dog they want for the future that will also help aid them NOW.


Lol...just google Emotional Support Animal. You'll see plenty of court cases and how judges have ruled. I know you think its a RIGHT...but ALL your RIGHTS can be challenged in court...and, laws aren't black and white...that's probably one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

And like I said, I read it, and the court could tell you that you could get a DIFFERENT ESA that does fit into what the landlord approves. So the landlord has made an accommodation...he said he'd approve of a small dog and yet the tenant is arguing that only a large dog will do. Unfortunately, at this point, the dog isn't an SD and the dog doesn't fall under the protection that is warranted for an SD. If the tenant does need an ESA right now...more than likely ANY animal will do...so why does it have to be that exact one? IT DOESN'T.


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## Rocket

martemchik said:


> The dog is currently not protected by the ADA and so its up to the landlord to do what he wants.


Nor will it ever be. The ADA doesn't give the dog rights, it simply gives [person with disability] certain protected rights, one of those is to have a service dog.


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## martemchik

Want to add...this is a CIVIL law...which means TONS of grey and very challengeable in court. This isn't a criminal law where the government is the one doing the prosecuting.


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## glowingtoadfly

The OP stated that the doctor believes a service dog/ emotional support dog is neccesary.


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## Rocket

glowingtoadfly said:


> service dog/ emotional support dog


Those are 2 very different things.


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## DJEtzel

This is ridiculous. I can't help but laugh. I'm bowing out.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes, but the OP's doctor said both may be neccesary and it is possible to have a dog be both.


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## Rocket

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, but the OP's doctor said both may be neccesary and it is possible to have a dog be both.


I don't disagree, but qualifying for one =/= qualifying for another.


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## martemchik

DJEtzel said:


> This is ridiculous. I can't help but laugh. I'm bowing out.


You should. There's a huge difference between reading the law and understanding it, and just thinking you have some idea of how it works or how it SHOULD work based on what your morals/ethics tell you. Unfortunately, the laws don't always follow what our personal beliefs about the subject are.


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## martemchik

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, but the OP's doctor said both may be neccesary and it is possible to have a dog be both.


It's possible...but you're not getting the point. An ESA (by law) can basically be any animal. It doesn't have to be YOUR particular animal. So if by law...a small dog can help you with the disability...and the landlord has allowed a small dog...then the court can easily say "get a small dog." It doesn't have ANY right to FORCE the landlord to accept the larger dog as the ESA. Since the disability can be helped by ANY animal...there is no legal basis to challenge the landlord that YOUR dog has to be YOUR ESA. It's the tenants responsibility to prove that only the large animal can help with the disability...which could be hard because if you have a psychological disability, how is it that the size of the dog matters?

When it comes to an SD. It's a little more cut and dry. Tenant has a physical disability...only a larger dog can help mitigate that disability. Landlord would have to accommodate the larger dog.

Do you see why claiming that the SD in training is and ESA for the time being isn't LEGALLY viable? In theory...you can do it, and you could convince the court or the landlord that the dog is an ESA and you get to do what you want. But...to call a dog an ESA so that you can get by while you train him is in all technicality skirting the law. It's using terms that people don't understand, and a fear/unwillingness to go through legal channels to force someone to do something they DON'T have to do.

I know most of us will have a soft spot for PWD...and you want to say they have rights. Well guess what...landlords have rights too.


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## sehrgutcsg

martemchik said:


> Well guess what...landlords have rights too.


+1 ------------ totally agree; Martemchik.. 

SGCSG


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## llombardo

Here is a thought, something I just learned. If the landlords insurance doesn't cover the dog, then the OP can't have that dog or will have to move. Maybe that is why the landlord is saying no?


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## Liesje

I take back my previous comment. According to this page, the landlord probably cannot require (so shouldn't accept) a deposit:

I'm a landlord. What are my rights concerning emotional support animals? | Service Dog Central

This page also outlines several scenarios where a landlord would NOT be required to allow an ESD GSD.


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## LoveEcho

I'm a landlord and you'd be amazed how few rights we have in general. You factor in someone with disabilities (or who could make that argument with doctor's notes, etc)... and we are just names on a deed to the property. 

The long and short of it is that leases don't actually mean much in terms of rules for the tenant- they protect the tenant, not the property owner. It's an extremely lengthy and difficult (and expensive) process to get a tenant out for breaking terms of a lease.


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## scarfish

if the landlords get annoyed over throwing laws in their face they could always decide not to renew the lease. they don't have to give a reason. IMO it would be best to tell them the situation and offer a pet deposit.


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## middleofnowhere

Landlord/tenant laws vary greatly from state to state. Arkansas tends to favor the landlord; Oregon the tenant. It also depends on the housing. If it is a home owned by an individual different rules apply than those owned by companies I think. (That was the case years ago anyway.)


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## ILGHAUS

Too many pages of going back and forth with some personal opinions based on knowledge being gathered via search engines while posting - though there are a couple of posts from people that are correct.

Start all over again. Discuss with your doctor if he is recommending a Service Dog *OR* an Emotional Support Dog.

"my doctor that a service dog/emotional support dog would help dramatically"

Emotional Support Dogs must be prescribed by your mental health caregiver or team. This is to be notated in your medical file. 
* Remember they are for individuals being treated for a *"disabling mental illness".*
* "ESAs are *not* task trained like service dogs are."
* ESAs can not go anywhere that a pet dog is not allowed with the exception of living in a rental unit where pet dogs are not allowed and flying in cabin on a commercial aircraft with owner.

Quote from Service Dog Central (SDC) with permission for me to use in educational work:
An Emotional Support Animal is a dog or other common domestic animal that provides theraputic support to a disabled or elderly owner through companionship, non-judgmental positive regard, affection, and a focus in life. If a doctor determines that a patient with a disabling mental illness would benefit from the companionship of an emotional support animal, the doctor write letters supporting a request by the patient to keep the ESA in "no pets" housing or to travel with the ESA in the cabin of an aircraft.

ESAs are not task trained like service dogs are. In fact little training at all is required so long as the animal is reasonably well behaved by pet standards. This means the animal is fully toilet trained and has no bad habits that would disturb neighbors such is frequent or lengthy episodes of barking. The animal should not pose a danger to other tenants or to workmen. But there is no requirement for fancy heeling or mitigating tasks since emotional support animals are not generally taken anywhere pets would not ordinarily go without permission (the exception being to fly in the cabin of an aircraft, even if the airline does not ordinarily accept pets).

It is important to note that having a diagnosis of a mental illness, by itself, is not sufficient to qualify a person for an ESA unless that illness is so severe it disables them. Only a judge can truly determine whether a person is legally disabled. However, a doctor can probably make a medical determination of a person's disability and on that basis prescribe an ESA. To qualify as disabled under federal disability rights laws, a person must experience substantial limitations on one or more major life activities because of their mental illness.

Emotional Support Animals | Service Dog Central


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## ILGHAUS

To OP, I wanted to give this statement by itself to make sure that it stood out.

*Unless you have a "disabling mental illness" you can not claim that your dog is an Emotional Support Dog at any point.*


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## ILGHAUS

Effective March 15, 2011 
Department of Justice (DOJ) definition of Service Dog as it pertains to Title II and Title III of the ADA 

"Service animal means any dog that is *individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability,* including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not service animals for the purposes of this definition. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the individual´s disability. Examples of work or tasks include, but are not limited to, assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to the presence of people or sounds, providing non-violent protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, assisting an individual during a seizure, alerting individuals to the presence of allergens, retrieving items such as medicine or the telephone, providing physical support and assistance with balance and stability to individuals with mobility disabilities, and helping persons with psychiatric and neurological disabilities by preventing or interrupting impulsive or destructive behaviors. *The crime deterrent effects of an animal´s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition*." 

(Bolding is mine for emphasis)


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## Betty

Thank you TJ, I've been following this thread for my own education and was hoping that you would chime in.


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## ILGHAUS

Reasonable Accommodations for Assistance Animals under the FHAct and 
Section 504 

Quotes:
The reasonable accommodation provisions of both laws must be considered in situations where persons with disabilities use (or seek to use) assistance animals (4) in housing where the provider forbids residents from having pets or otherwise imposes restrictions or conditions relating to pets and other animals. 

An assistance animal is not a pet. It is an animal that works, provides assistance, or performs tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability, or provides emotional support that alleviates one or more identified symptoms or effects of a person's disability.

Questions regarding this notice may be directed to the HUD Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Enforcement and Programs, telephone 202-619-8046. 

Issued: April 25, 2013 
Expires: Effective until Amended, Superseded, or Rescinded 

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=servanimals_ntcfheo2013-01.pdf

*****

There are indeed many grey (conflicting) points in this document. Remember this is from the Federal Level and there may also be State Statutes to add into the mix. 

For questions on the State Level contact your State's Attorney Gerneral's office.

I try to stay out of housing questions and rather give links to laws, who to contact with questions and the advice to seek further legal assistance (if needed) with a qualified attorney with knowledge on this topic.


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## martemchik

I’d rather post the law as well…but it’s clear that people need some guidance on how to interpret the law and some information on how the law has been interpreted before since our justice system is very much based on the precedent set by prior court rulings which interpreted the statute and not the statute itself.
The advice given earlier about “just call it an ESA” was based on an extremely limited understanding of the laws and a very broad idea of what the law is trying to get across. My feelings about the terrible advice were basically that when someone does that, they’re betting that the landlord won’t take the time to understand the law, or spend the money to have someone explain it to them, take the tenant to court, and figure out what the real legal rights are. Basically it’s betting that allowing the ESA is easier and less of a financial burden than going to court over it.
Anytime someone says “It’s their RIGHT” they don’t quite understand how the law works and what their rights truly are.


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## Cheyanna

OP is in California. I am in California. Fiona is licensed by the state of California as a service dog. Not sure if they do it for emotional support dogs. Once, your dog is able to do at least one of the tasks needed and is competent in it, you can get the license. Your trainer will know what point that is. Mine told me for Fiona. Where in Ca are you?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka

ILGHAUS said:


> To OP, I wanted to give this statement by itself to make sure that it stood out.
> 
> *Unless you have a "disabling mental illness" you can not claim that your dog is an Emotional Support Dog at any point.*


This can be so widely interpreted. Is drug addiction a disabling mental illness? What about depression?
What's disabling? Where's that defined?


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## lalachka

LoveEcho said:


> I'm a landlord and you'd be amazed how few rights we have in general. You factor in someone with disabilities (or who could make that argument with doctor's notes, etc)... and we are just names on a deed to the property.
> 
> The long and short of it is that leases don't actually mean much in terms of rules for the tenant- they protect the tenant, not the property owner. It's an extremely lengthy and difficult (and expensive) process to get a tenant out for breaking terms of a lease.


It's interesting to read that. Can you give some examples? I rent all the time and I feel like it's me that has no rights. I don't need much but just as a comment, reading the lease, it seems like the landlord is covered for everything and can do what he wants. Which is fair, it's his place. I don't get the feeling the tenants have all the rights


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## ILGHAUS

HUD
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
451 7th Street S.W., Washington, DC 20410
Telephone: (202) 708-1112 TTY: (202) 708-1455

Definition of Disability: Federal laws define a person with a disability as "Any person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; has a record of such impairment; or is regarded as having such an impairment."

In general, a physical or mental impairment includes hearing, mobility and visual impairments, chronic alcoholism, chronic mental illness, AIDS, AIDS Related Complex, and mental retardation that substantially limits one or more major life activities. Major life activities include walking, talking, hearing, seeing, breathing, learning, performing manual tasks, and caring for oneself.

People with Disabilities - HUD


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## lalachka

ILGHAUS said:


> HUD
> U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
> 451 7th Street S.W., Washington, DC 20410
> Telephone: (202) 708-1112 TTY: (202) 708-1455
> 
> Definition of Disability: Federal laws define a person with a disability as "Any person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities; has a record of such impairment; or is regarded as having such an impairment."
> 
> In general, a physical or mental impairment includes hearing, mobility and visual impairments, chronic alcoholism, chronic mental illness, AIDS, AIDS Related Complex, and mental retardation that substantially limits one or more major life activities. Major life activities include walking, talking, hearing, seeing, breathing, learning, performing manual tasks, and caring for oneself.
> 
> People with Disabilities - HUD


Oh, so depression and addiction are on the list. Those are pretty easy to fake. A determined person can create a paper trail


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## martemchik

lalachka said:


> It's interesting to read that. Can you give some examples? I rent all the time and I feel like it's me that has no rights. I don't need much but just as a comment, reading the lease, it seems like the landlord is covered for everything and can do what he wants. Which is fair, it's his place. I don't get the feeling the tenants have all the rights


If you actually go to court...leases aren't worth the paper they're written on. The average expense to evict someone is in the hundreds of dollars. To evict someone, a landlord has to have all their ducks lined up in a row, and one thing missing, the judge will likely side with the tenant.

Standard contracts are very funny in today's world. The fact that the tenant doesn't have the opportunity to negotiate the contract, and its just given to them as a "take it or leave it" thing...makes the contract very grey in the eyes of the law. Many contracts also don't really list out what the landlord's duties are...so if the tenant brings up even one thing that the landlord didn't do, that could be considered breach of contract by the landlord. Any kind of undue delay in a repair or something else could backfire on the landlord really quickly.

Most "release of liability" contracts have been overturned when challenged. When you actually study law, and not just base your knowledge on written word/law...it's really interesting how contracts are viewed. Most people think that once they have a written contract, everything is set, it's not even close. Most of our law is based on precedent and not on the statutes that we have written.


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## martemchik

lalachka said:


> Oh, so depression and addiction are on the list. Those are pretty easy to fake. A determined person can create a paper trail


It's not all that simple. But say you actually do have depression...for years. Landlord can challenge why its only NOW that you need the dog. Why wasn't this something that was mentioned earlier? Why is it THAT particular dog that has to be the ESA? Why can't a dog under the weight limit do that job? It can get very messy if the landlord wants to push it.

SD...a little different, you can show how a bigger dog is necessary when they're doing actual tasks for you.


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## Mister C

lalachka said:


> It's interesting to read that. Can you give some examples? I rent all the time and I feel like it's me that has no rights. I don't need much but just as a comment, reading the lease, it seems like the landlord is covered for everything and can do what he wants. Which is fair, it's his place. I don't get the feeling the tenants have all the rights





martemchik said:


> If you actually go to court...leases aren't worth the paper they're written on. The average expense to evict someone is in the hundreds of dollars. To evict someone, a landlord has to have all their ducks lined up in a row, and one thing missing, the judge will likely side with the tenant.
> 
> Standard contracts are very funny in today's world. The fact that the tenant doesn't have the opportunity to negotiate the contract, and its just given to them as a "take it or leave it" thing...makes the contract very grey in the eyes of the law. Many contracts also don't really list out what the landlord's duties are...so if the tenant brings up even one thing that the landlord didn't do, that could be considered breach of contract by the landlord. Any kind of undue delay in a repair or something else could backfire on the landlord really quickly.
> 
> Most "release of liability" contracts have been overturned when challenged. When you actually study law, and not just base your knowledge on written word/law...it's really interesting how contracts are viewed. Most people think that once they have a written contract, everything is set, it's not even close. Most of our law is based on precedent and not on the statutes that we have written.


Nice post Martemchik.

I will give you another example Lalachka. If a tenant fails to pay the rent in my county the landlord must file a lawsuit against the tenant. If the landlord wins the sheriff is called to evict the tenant. The tenant can wait until the sheriff shows up at their door, pay the sheriff the back due rent and then they can stay in the rental. The landlord must repeat this process no less than 4 times in a year period before it is really final and they must leave. And as Martemchik points out, winning such a suit is not guaranteed and is expensive.

Also, the landlord must pay 3.5% interest on the security deposit in my area. No way are you getting that kind of rate at a bank.


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## lalachka

martemchik said:


> It's not all that simple. But say you actually do have depression...for years. Landlord can challenge why its only NOW that you need the dog. Why wasn't this something that was mentioned earlier? Why is it THAT particular dog that has to be the ESA? Why can't a dog under the weight limit do that job? It can get very messy if the landlord wants to push it.
> 
> SD...a little different, you can show how a bigger dog is necessary when they're doing actual tasks for you.


Are you a lawyer? Lol in any case I wouldn't want to mess with you legally


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## lalachka

Mister C said:


> Nice post Martemchik.
> 
> I will give you another example Lalachka. If a tenant fails to pay the rent in my county the landlord must file a lawsuit against the tenant. If the landlord wins the sheriff is called to evict the tenant. The tenant can wait until the sheriff shows up at their door, pay the sheriff the back due rent and then they can stay in the rental. The landlord must repeat this process no less than 4 times in a year period before it is really final and they must leave. And as Martemchik points out, winning such a suit is not guaranteed and is expensive.
> 
> Also, the landlord must pay 3.5% interest on the security deposit in my area. No way are you getting that kind of rate at a bank.


This procedure sounds really tasking. But this can only go on until the lease is up, right? I think usually the first lease is for a year and the landlord gets a feel for you and then you get the option. 

So at the worst case you have 2 years of pain. 

I guess I see what you mean. You have rights but a tenant that doesn't own much and doesn't have much to lose can really hurt you. 

I do have to say that some landlords take advantage of good tenants. My friend in next building. Pays rent on time in cash, gives no problems. She has stories you won't believe when it cones to repairs. 

Like they were repairing something upstairs and she ended up with s large hole in the ceiling. Took 4 months of chasing them, calling every day, to fix it. 
And more stuff like toilet not working for a month or so, bathtub, I forgot what else. 

My building is about the same but I'm handy so I just do everything myself. Otherwise, asking for anything to get done is like pulling teeth. 
Actually, I learned to do many things, like heavy duty plumbing and fixing walls and floors and doors because chasing them to me was too stressful.


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## martemchik

We can equate a lease, or a long contract, to just a scare tactic that most people follow because they don't know how the court system works and think that all a landlord has to do to evict you is be able to catch you breaking one of the clauses. It's amazing how many of those clauses can be found illegal or set the expectation of a tenant too high when you do get into court.

You can basically equate it to the advice given earlier in this thread..."call your dog an ESA and the landlord HAS to allow it." Again...basing that on the fact that the landlord will be too scared to challenge the law, or the fact that you've called the dog an ESA to do anything about it. Many times, when you do present these kinds of things to anyone out there, they take it as fact and lawful because they just don't know any better.


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## martemchik

In Wisconsin...the landlord actually can't remove you if you're a good tenant. Unless they're changing the state of the property (so from a rental to a personal or maybe selling it). In Wisconsin, a signed lease for any period of time is automatically renewed to a month by month unless the tenant otherwise notifies the landlord and tells them they're moving out. After that, they just need to give the landlord a month notice before moving out.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm an accountant, so I have had law classes. It's really fun. We focused on a lot of stuff like tenant/landlord law because while in college (and after college) its probably some of the more important stuff for someone to actually know.


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## lalachka

martemchik said:


> We can equate a lease, or a long contract, to just a scare tactic that most people follow because they don't know how the court system works and think that all a landlord has to do to evict you is be able to catch you breaking one of the clauses. It's amazing how many of those clauses can be found illegal or set the expectation of a tenant too high when you do get into court.
> 
> You can basically equate it to the advice given earlier in this thread..."call your dog an ESA and the landlord HAS to allow it." Again...basing that on the fact that the landlord will be too scared to challenge the law, or the fact that you've called the dog an ESA to do anything about it. Many times, when you do present these kinds of things to anyone out there, they take it as fact and lawful because they just don't know any better.


I'm one of those lol. I believe the lease


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## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> It's interesting to read that. Can you give some examples? I rent all the time and I feel like it's me that has no rights. I don't need much but just as a comment, reading the lease, it seems like the landlord is covered for everything and can do what he wants. Which is fair, it's his place. I don't get the feeling the tenants have all the rights


An example.... tenant with children didn't pay rent. The eviction process took almost a year and was extremely expensive because the tenant had children- making it not a cut and dry process...lots of court hearings, etc. Said tenant also trashed the property- holes in the walls, etc. We never recouped any money for rent or damages and the tenant lived in the home without paying during the entire process. It's also really difficult and expensive to go after someone for damages beyond what a security deposit covers. Because of all of this, we were also unable to sell the property in the mean time. 

If you really, really carefully read a lease, most of it talks about what the landlord CAN'T do. 

It comes down to... yeah, you (general you) think you have no rights because you can't have a pet, can't do this or that (paint walls, whatever).... but when it comes down to it, it can extremely difficult to evict someone for breaking the terms of a lease, and the property owner loses almost all rights to that property in the meantime. What's the definition of "rights" then?


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## lalachka

LoveEcho said:


> An example.... tenant with children didn't pay rent. The eviction process took almost a year and was extremely expensive because the tenant had children- making it not a cut and dry process...lots of court hearings, etc. Said tenant also trashed the property- holes in the walls, etc. We never recouped any money for rent or damages and the tenant lived in the home without paying during the entire process. It's also really difficult and expensive to go after someone for damages beyond what a security deposit covers. Because of all of this, we were also unable to sell the property in the mean time.
> 
> If you really, really carefully read a lease, most of it talks about what the landlord CAN'T do.
> 
> It comes down to... yeah, you (general you) think you have no rights because you can't have a pet, can't do this or that (paint walls, whatever).... but when it comes down to it, it can extremely difficult to evict someone for breaking the terms of a lease, and the property owner loses almost all rights to that property in the meantime. What's the definition of "rights" then?


Yeah, lol, that's what I meant. Can't do this, can't do that. 
I've never gone this far and if I was a landlord in this situation I'd be pissed. 

I believe you that this is how it went down but how did the courts decide that it was ok for you to lose on a year of rent and have your place trashed? All because she has kids? I don't get the logic on this


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## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> Yeah, lol, that's what I meant. Can't do this, can't do that.
> I've never gone this far and if I was a landlord in this situation I'd be pissed.
> 
> I believe you that this is how it went down but how did the courts decide that it was ok for you to lose on a year of rent and have your place trashed? All because she has kids? I don't get the logic on this



To make a long, complicated story short, she argued that she'd be homeless, and you can't throw children out on the street. The courts did end up ruling in our favor (hence why she was eventually evicted), but it's a multi-step process full of appeals, etc... if the tenant keeps dragging it out, it can be weeks or months between hearing dates and then it can go to court, etc. Plus, if she makes just ONE rent payment (out of many missed), it extends the process further- as someone else mentioned, with the police showing up.


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## lalachka

LoveEcho said:


> To make a long, complicated story short, she argued that she'd be homeless, and you can't throw children out on the street. The courts did end up ruling in our favor (hence why she was eventually evicted), but it's a multi-step process full of appeals, etc... if the tenant keeps dragging it out, it can be weeks or months between hearing dates and then it can go to court, etc. Plus, if she makes just ONE rent payment (out of many missed), it extends the process further- as someone else mentioned, with the police showing up.


Are you still renting? Or she was the one that made you stop?

This doesn't sound like fun


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## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> Are you still renting? Or she was the one that made you stop?
> 
> This doesn't sound like fun


We didn't rent for a long time after that. When we were unable to sell our house when I had to move for work, we decided to rent it out... we've had pretty good tenants in there, great people. Now that we are trying to sell it again (they are on a month-to-month lease), it gets tricky with showings, etc.... but that's not really a legal matter so much as just us trying not to be jerks.


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## Dainerra

lol In Arkansas, there isn't even a requirement for the landlord to make sure the home is habitable. 
It's easy to get a tenant out as well. In AR, failure to vacate is a criminal offense. So, if the landlord gives you a notice, you can be arrested within 24 hours.


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## lalachka

Dainerra said:


> lol In Arkansas, there isn't even a requirement for the landlord to make sure the home is habitable.
> It's easy to get a tenant out as well. In AR, failure to vacate is a criminal offense. So, if the landlord gives you a notice, you can be arrested within 24 hours.


Echo, lol, move your properly there. Sounds like landlord's heaven


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## ILGHAUS

OK all of this info is fine but this is Guide, Therapy & Service Dogs so let's keep the subject of posts more on that please. 

Remember most of the above posts are business with rental and eviction laws in general in the U.S. 
What we deal with say in Assistance or Service Dogs in the U.S. is under our Civil Law. Other countries will of course vary.


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