# Please help me.......again



## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

I have a now 10 month old GSD I bought as a puppy. We have had nothing but problems with him. I don't know what to do. We have had him at the vet so many times now. We bought him from a breeder who I thought was reputable, *kennel name removed by Admin* here in PA. Good pedigree, imported sire, dam is a drug dog ect. Well, the day I show up to pick up my GSD the breeder tells me he has an overshot jaw. She gives me a $50 discount, and me not knowing any better accept that. And she was sure to write that on the contract! Well to make a long story short, we have been training in SchH since he was 8 weeks old. His bite has become worse. His k-9's are only as long as his other teeth. Needless to say, he won't be able to do the bitework for SchH 1. Along with his horrible mouth, he has had numerous ear infections, has 1 floppy ear, bouts with pano, allergies, and now we just found out his one testicle hasn't dropped. 

Ugh! All these issues we're having. Whats next, hip displasia? Do I have a leg to stand on here with this breeder? Shoud I return the dog, ask for my $900 back?

Plz help, I feel so cheated but yet me and my family are in love with this "dog"

- Bill


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

I think the first thing to do at this point is to decide what you want to do with the dog.

You could try to return him to the breeder (good luck) Have you spoken to the breeder at all about his problems?

Or you could decide to just keep him as a pet.

Once you decide what you want to do you can move on from there. 

The health problems I am sure can be fixed, there are many things that cause ear infections and allergies sometimes it is as simple as a diet change.

Personally floppy ears don't bother me, and I am not sure about taping his ear to make it stand I think he maybe to old?

Just decide what you wish to do and I am sure that people here can help out.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Well if the "breeder" knew you wanted a dog for sport, then they shouldn't have sold you a dog with such a bad bite. I don't see where pa has any allowances for genetic defects. If it's who I think it is, good luck on getting any money back. Maybe they would take the dog back. Pano isn't a big deal, allergies a little bigger deal. BUT 1 nut, 1 ear and poor teeth is a biggie if you were wanting to title/show your dog. 


Choice A, see if breeder will take dog back. maybe but prob won't get any $ back choice B keep pup as a pet, consider it an expensive lesson, and realize that you don't always find good breeders in the same state you live in. 

Next time research, research, research, ask questions, even here on the board, people could PM you if they've heard anything negative. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

Well, my intentions were to have the dog as a "pet" and that is how I approched it. BUT, does that mean I get the runt/mut of the litter? It shouldn't. I paid $900 for this **** dog and I just feel now like I was taken over. It really frustrates me. 

Kind of like owning a lemon car, ya know. I paid good money for it and it runs but boy o boy does it have some issues.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Find him a better home where he can be loved and appreciated!

Dogs are not "its" nor are they cars. They are living creatures and you take on responsibilty for them when you bring them into your home.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Then if you purchased as a pet, unless the breeding has happened numerous times before, allergies might not be a known thing until the 1st litter is older. Pano is common. Ears, tape/glue them. Testicle, ok, pet anyway, neuter him, done.

Dogs are living creatures, as the adage goes, puppies are a crap shoot. Unless the breeding has been repeated, then the breeder prob. has an idea of what it's produced before.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

While I can understand your frustration and it sounds like maybe the breeder didn't do right by you, at the same time you also need to realize and accept that when purchasing a living creature, there are never any guarantees. Sometimes poorly bred dogs turn out perfect in health and temperament, and sometimes even the best bred dogs lose the genetic lottery and end up with a host of problems. It happens and nothing a breeder or buyer can do will prevent what mother nature decrees in some cases.

Did the dog have both testicles when you got him? If so, there is no way the breeder could know that one would go back in as he matured. No way to know if ears will or won't stand when looking at young pups either. Also no way to predict pano (which while annoying isn't a big deal as the dog will grow out of it) or allergies. Ear infections also often caused by allergies, and now way to predict. Also, the severity of allergies and allergy related ear infections can often be easily managed with a correct diet, avoiding foods that contain things the dog is allergic too. This obviously would be the responsibility of the owner to adjust to and accomodate.

Sounds like the only "defect" that was known at the time you purchased the pup is the overbite. The breeder made sure you were aware of it, wrote it in the contract and offered a discount. All of which you accepted at the time. Overbites often do correct themselves as the dog matures. Sometimes they don't, but even then most won't impact a dog's ability to be a pet or do SchH. It sounds like you dog is a rare case where the overbite got worse and the teeth didn't come in properly, which again is something no one could have predicted at the time you got the pup.

So while everyone can understand where you're coming from with your frustration and in many ways you're feelings are justified, at the same time when these things happen.. and they DO happen.. people need to accept the fact that with young puppies nothing is ever guaranteed. There are risks that the pup may not turn out as expected or hoped. The more research and the better the breeder, the less the risks, but nothing will eliminate those risks entirely.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't want to come off harsh but unfortunately $900.00 is not a lot of money for a pure bred dog.I spent $1200.00 for one in June last year.My personal thought is you will probably have to take it as in expensive mistake.I would not be able to give up a dog that I have had for so long,unless I am misunderstanding and you just got him as an older pup.If you have no attachment to him see if you can send him back if not Love him and get him the medical care he needs if anything can be done.Sorry.We all make mistakes and we just have to learn from them.I have.Good luck.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

You will never find a dog that has no issues, no matter how much you pay. They are living creatures and unfortunately are prone to health/temperament issues. 

Seriously, if you resent the dog (and it sounds like you do) re-home him, or find a rescue that can help you. This is your fault as well, you need to take responsibly for your part in this, you didn't do your research and you TOOK the dog even when the breeder told you he had a jaw problem.

I do understand your frustration, but there are many of us who have bought dogs and had serious issues with them, yet we continue to love and care for them and I personally have never referred to my dog as a lemon. ouch, poor pup.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

A question for the Pro's.Is it possible starting a dog so young to do SchH with jaw problems aggravated the over shot jaw?Just a thought.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Quote:I paid $900 for this **** dog and I just feel now like I was taken over. It really frustrates me.
> 
> Kind of like owning a lemon car, ya know. I paid good money for it and it runs but boy o boy does it have some issues.


No, I don't know. It makes me very sad to hear anyone put it that way after they espressed how much they are in love with the dog. 



> Quote:Along with his horrible mouth, he has had numerous ear infections, has 1 floppy ear, bouts with pano, allergies, and now we just found out his one testicle hasn't dropped.


Like Chris Wild said, the breeder made you aware the puppy had an overshot jaw.

All puppies have ear infections. Either you or your vet dropped the ball if after the third one you didn't get preemptive about it. My pup is the same age, I've spent a lot of money on his ear infections but I don't think anyone here has hear me whine about it. I also paid more for my pup.

Floppy ear? Could have fixed that, again, either vet or you dropped the ball.

Pano? My more expensive pup has it. It's estimated one in four german shepherds gets pano. 

Allergies? Again, common in german shepherds. My more expensive pup has allergies, I'm just figuring out what they are. My last male GSD was allergic to most meat. My 7 year old female GSD is allergic to grass! Try keeping a dog off grass.

Undescended testicle, that happens too. Sometimes they're both down and one goes back up. Like someone else said, neuter him, he's a pet and it should be done anyway if you want to be a responsible dog owner.

There are many things far worse that can happen to a dog. 



> Quote:Well, my intentions were to have the dog as a "pet" and that is how I approched it.


Sorry to say that's what you asked for and what you paid for. Maybe you can't do schh with the dog. Do rally or agility if you want to work with the dog.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Well the breeder gave you a "minor" discount for a "minor" flaw - that has now become a "major" issue, so go back & talk to the breeder (personally would NOT have accepted a 5% discount for a jaw issue - they can cost $$$$ to correct & will usually affect the dog for life). 
Did you have a vet do a health exam within the time alloted on the contract (usually 48-72h)? what was the vet's assessment on the jaw? 

Is there anything in your contract about testicles? - he may still drop the second, I'd wait another 6 months or even until he's 2 - if not, then you're outta luck on that one. I would NOT leave the testicle in past the age of 2 re problems that can develop with that testicle.

Numerous ear infections can affect ear development & are likely related to the allergies - what have you done to treat either? did your vet do allergy testing?

Have you been in contact with the breeder through the last several months discussing issues with the pup? 
If 5 pups in a litter of 10 have issues, then that's a breeding that should never be repeated BUT the breeder will only know this if new owners report problems as they occur.

Sadly you can get a 'hard luck' pup no matter where you go, with a reputable breeder you should at least have a source of expert knowledge re the breed, issues, treatment options etc. 
Most puppy contracts will define breeder/buyer responsibility re health of the pup, what does your contract state?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Have you talked to the breeder?


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I agree with everything Jenn says 
"you purchased as a pet" 
There are so many other things you can do with him.

If you are in Love with him as you say then be responsible.
There are no guarantees with any living thing. 

My dog has allergies to what haven't figured it out yet, had plenty of ear infections and I paid a heck of alot more money then you.

But you know what he is mine and I wouldn't give him up for anything!


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. You all have very good points.


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

I'll let you know what the breeder has to say as soon as she "call's me back at her earliest conviniene".


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There's probably not a whole lot anyone here can advise, because it really depends on the contract/agreement between you and the breeder. What was the agreement if health issues came up? How to proceed depends on what was decided before you picked up the dog. Different breeders will guarantee/cover health issues to varying extents. Some breeders will let you pick a new dog free of charge eventually; others might require you "return" the dog before you can pick a new one (many will do this to avoid ever providing a replacement, b/c they know you bond with the dog, issues or not, and most likely won't return it). Good breeders will discuss issues like testicals, hip dysplasia, etc. beforehand so you know how to proceed if it happens.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

You know, there's still tons of stuff you can do with your dog that isn't Sch related...tracking, obedience, agility, etc. If you want to do an activity with your dog, try one of these. I mean, they really are like kids, not every dog can do a certain activity just because we "want them to". They each have their own limitations, mentally or physically.

You did purchase this pup knowing he had a "flaw" which later put a damper on your plans for an activity that has nothing to do with his love or devotion to you as a pet. It appears most of the problems you have with the pup can be fixed or are common in puppies no much how much you paid for them. 

Be thankful it's not some whackjob dog with emotional/aggression issues/bad wiring. While it sucks that you may not be able to do what YOU want to do with the pup, there's still tons of stuff you CAN do with it...like, umm, maybe love him as a member of your family, flaws and all, and not treat him like a machine or like he's the one at fault since you bought him knowing about the jaw issue and didn't take time to do any research? Just a thought....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Most reputable breeders will guarantee testicles - except for pups sold on "pet" (Companion in my venacular) puppies. Look at the contract and see if there is recourse there.

As far as the bite goes - a friend of mine bought a dog out of 2 very well bred dogs - the male a BSP dog, the female a Crok daughter - he was ok at 8 weeks - at 12 weeks, he had a HECK of a bad bite - the lower jaw was probably an inch back of the top...that dog did bitework fine - got a Schh1 before gas prices went through the roof and teh guy quit training - he could have easily done a Schh3.

Lee

Edit to add - the breeder gave him HALF of his money back at 8 months - offered him a different pup who had one testicle with the same half price if he wanted to switch. Family was attached to dog, he kept it and titled it - he had NO written contract at all.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: aubie
> Be thankful it's not some whackjob dog with emotional/aggression issues/bad wiring.


 That's exactly what I keep thinking here. Would you prefer a totally physically healthy HD, allergy, ear infection, pano free drivey unstoppable canine aggressive fear biter with separation anxiety, people and dog reactivity issues? And with a wonderful full bite to boot? They are not so rare as one may think. Health problems is possible to fix or manage, bad nerves are a different story... 

You pup is a real dog, not a 'dog'...


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: solanabeacher Well, my intentions were to have the dog as a "pet" and that is how I approched it. BUT, does that mean I get the runt/mut of the litter? It shouldn't. I paid $900 for this **** dog and I just feel now like I was taken over. It really frustrates me.
> 
> Kind of like owning a lemon car, ya know. I paid good money for it and it runs but boy o boy does it have some issues.












Either try to return the dog, or find him a good home. "This **** Dog" doesn't exactly ooze with love and affection. Sounds like you asked for an inexpensive "PET" dog, then decided that you wanted to do Schutzhund with him. If you'd purchased a dog intended for that it probably would have cost you more. Maybe you tried to cut a corner and it didn't work out?? I hope that the Breeder is able to take back the dog and re-home him with someone who will adore their pet. Instead of kicking the tires and being unhappy.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

I feel sad for the poor dog. Sorry, I can't say more as it might be rude.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1Find him a better home where he can be loved and appreciated!
> 
> Dogs are not "its" nor are they cars. They are living creatures and you take on responsibilty for them when you bring them into your home.


Ditto.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, you are complaining that your $900 comapanion isn't perfect? Hmmm. I actually feel sorry for the breeder because the dog is only nine months old. When it is struck by a car and breaks its leg at two will it be the breeder's fault for not supplying you with a dog that knew not to run in front of cars? 

You have not mentioned what you are feeding this dog. Recurring ear infections and skin problems are often due to poor diet. I would think that they would take longer than nine months to be full blown, but I don't know. 

You wanted a companion and you ended up trying to do Schutzhund with the dog. That is all well and good, but it does not sound like you discussed your desire for a schutzhund dog with the breeder. Breeders are not mind readers. 

Retained testical and Pano. For a companion, these are not troublesome. If the nut stays in, then you will be charged for a spay rather than a neuter I think, but it is not a huge deal. 

There are some issues that people on this board deal with regularly, megasaphagus, DM, bloat -- stuff that will break your heart and take your dog down by degrees. And you are bellyaching that you paid a pet-price for a pet-quality dog. Sure other pet-quality dogs have made it nine months with fewer issues, but puppies are not guaranteed perfect. 

If you return your problem dog to the breeder, she may find it another pet home, or she may euthanize it. I almost think she would prefer to get it back from you as the next 13 years, she may not want to be attacked every time your dog looks at you funny. 

I will say this too though: if you spend $2000 for a puppy from schutzhund parents with awesome pedigrees. You still may end up with a dog that prefers to smell the flowers and play with the guy in the bite suit. When we buy a living breathing being with a personality, we have to assess them and make decisions that go in line with what the dog is good at. Dogs aren't kids, but if you want your kids to be a doctor a lawyer and an engineer, sometimes you end up with an artist, and author, and a social worker. 

I would let the breeder know what is going on with the pup, but I would ask her what she feeds her dogs. Maybe she will suggest a few things for your dog. Maybe she will suggest giving you a replacement. 

I replaced a pup that was run over -- long story and it was not the owner's fault, but I wanted them to be a happy customer. It is possible that she will feel this way. But if she does not, you have a contract, if it is not listed in the contract, then you are out of luck and should not hold a grudge against the breeder. 

If you checked her out and ensured that she is titling her breeding stock, and doing health checks, etc., she is probably not dragging down a profit at $900/pup. That is about a break-even figure if you are doing stuff right, and depending where you live, how often you breed and how many canines you are supporting.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Just wait til the stomach problems start.I spent $300.00 this week on medical care for my $1200.00 dog.That's not including the over the counter meds.2 weeks ago I spent another couple hundred on other stomach problems and Xrays.The good out of it is I found out she has excellent hips for.Love him or try to return him.It's not his fault he was born not so perfect.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if you have even been in contact with the breeder since the beginning. My pup had pano, and I let the breeder know. There were three others out of 9 that also had it, but they are all long legged and large. My pup had temperament issues, and we discussed it, I have been in contact with her since we brought Onyx home, she wanted as much info as possible for future breeding of her bitch(this was first litter). If you maintain a good relationship with your breeder, without being a PIA then you wouldn't have to come here to purge your frustrations. I agree with the above, love your pup for who she/he is and count your blessings. On the Schutzhund, did your training director start the bitework too early? It could account for the teeth misaligning even if there was a problem to start~ 8 week pup?, tugging should be managed with care, especially when adult teeth are coming in.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: Retained testical and Pano. For a companion, these are not troublesome. If the nut stays in, then you will be charged for a spay rather than a neuter


I wish! cryptorchid here runs between $800 & $2000







The $2000 dog came back with virtually the same $$$$ from 3 different vets - luckily my friend started a new job at a specialist clinc & one of the vets did it pro bono (rescue dog)


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just paid $65 to have my small male with a retained testicle neutered


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

Thank you all. You have really brought a lot of things into perspective for me. I re-read my posts and some things didn't come out right. I do love this dog with all my heart and would never give him back. This is the dog we chose and this is our dog until death do us part. I have just been frustrated with all the health issues we've been having. I've come to the realization that he probably won't be a SchH dog and those weren't my intentions when I bought the dog. We bought him for a companion, a pet, and his is that. He is loving, loyal, protective, ect. That is what we wanted, that is what we got. Together we'll sort our the heath issues as they come and go. I am thankful for his good temprament and his trainability. Again, thanks for your comments and perspectives on my Sargie. 

PS...........We left him sleep in bed with us last night


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

That's good to hear...sometimes when we type it comes across very "wrong or harsh" sounding and that's not our intentions.

Like I said, there are still tons of activities you can do with your pup. The most important being lots of petting and loving!

I'd love to see pics of your Sargie!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You are not from California are you? They did a nightline with a few dogs they already knew what was wrong with, and about eight of the 12 vets came back with competing horrors and expensive treatment plans. 

I had a cat that was cryptorchid and they charged me for a spay rather than a neuter. I cannot see why it would cost more than that.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Some of you jump on him too quick. It is obvious he is not happy with the dog and he has the right not to be. Every dog is not perfect as you all know. A breeder that sells a dog that is known to have a defect should get what ever bad mouthing they can get from people. Anyone that is into breeding dogs and lets something leave their kennel that is not up to par with other dogs is not much of a breeder. 


A dog can be loved no matter what they have wrong with them and should be loved no matter what. In my opinion the dog should have been kept by the breeder and fixed. If he/she did not want to do that then there are other roads they can follow. Find a home for the dog and give him away if someone wants him for a pet. Never sell a dog that is less. It hurts you in the end. The breeder needs to know what happens with that pup over his/her life if at all possible for future breedings. 

I don't know how much experience the OP has with dogs. It looks to me that he did not have much and the breeder took him for money on a lesser pup. This happens a lot more than people realize. When someone that does not have experience with dogs gets a lesser pup they will never be happy with what they have. It will always be something pointed out about the dog by someone else that will hurt them forever. It's hard to sell a pup to someone new to the dog world.

What I am trying to get across in this post is... It does not matter what your buying a pup for there is no reason you should get a lesser pup than anyone else. It is just as much the breeders fault as it is his in my opinion. Probably more since the breeder is suppose to be a professional. The breeder should have told the buyer a lot more than the pup has a bad bite and I'll give you 50 dollars off for taking this pup off my hands. There is no telling how many people the pup had been offered to before the one she/he took for the money.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I disagree. Culling litters is an old practice, but not well received now adays. 

People can always feel that they have been shortchanged if they choose. 

Breeders should only give a dog away if it is to someone they know very well. Free is not a good word when associated with puppies. If a person cannot feel ok about a dog that was discounted, then how much worse would they feel about a dog that was worth nothing, that was free. 

Free dogs often fall into the worst hands, dog fighters, labs, etc. And free dogs are easier to dispose of when you need to change the decor. Free dogs are easier to chain out back, and are not worth preventative, decent food, or training classes. 

Some people who need a free dog, do not have the money to properly care for the dog. 

**********************************************
Everyone has a different opinion of how many dogs a breeder should own. 

A breeder should hold back puppies that are show or working quality to determine their suitability for their breeding program. 

A breeder should take back puppies/dogs whose owners find they can no longer provide a home for. 

A breeder should provide a home for dogs that need to be rescued for whatever reason. 

A breeder should keep every pup that is not 100% perfect, too. 

The problem is that all of these dogs require love and respect, time within the home with the family, training, veterinary care, food etc. It will quickly become impossible for anyone. 

So you are really saying that breeders should cull the litter, then the OP would only be having the very normal issues he has mentioned and not the jaw issue. 

I have not heard that the jaw is giving the pup trouble eating. But maybe you are right and the pup is better off dead. Then his owner wouldn't regret all the money he spent on him, or any future money he will cost his owner. 

***********************************************

This pup will cost his owner plenty in years to come. Maybe he will get cancer, maybe epilepsy, maybe he will bloat. Maybe the dog will need to be euthanized after he runs out in front of a truck. 

Maybe some of us should not buy any puppies until they are born fully trained and 100% perfect. And someone will STILL complain about how much they cost.


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow selzer.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI wonder if you have even been in contact with the breeder since the beginning.


I wonder if my pup's breeder is tired of hearing from us. We send her a brief e-mail and photos, what seems like, every other day


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/solanabeacher/newarrives063.jpg?t=1240240736


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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)




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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)




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## solanabeacher (Mar 5, 2009)




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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Lovely puppy!!!
You should be proud of him!
You can get good advice about health issues in the health section.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

He is adorable! And he looks very sweet.










RebelGSD is right. Stick around and post his health problems in the health section if they should come up. There is so much knowledge on this board and a lot of support as well.


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