# Did I pick the wrong breed?



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Maybe this post is a bit of a rant, but I really would like to know what other GSD owners think. I just read through an old post in the SchH section and it got me a little riled up. That in combination with some comments I have heard and read recently.
I am not a breeder. I haven’t titled a dog in SchH yet. I don’t show in confirmation. I have only owned three GSDs now and consider myself to be at least academically educated on the breed. Even though I am a “new person”, I am still bothered by comments that I have read and heard lately? Maybe I don't know what a GSD is supposed to be. But comments like these disturb me.


· Agility isn't for GSDs. (Maybe not going to beat the Border Collies, but not do it at all?)
· A GSD shouldn't be able to be a therapy dog, you will have to get a pet quality and they might not be able to do SchH.
· You WANT your GSD to go onto the field screaming. That means they want to work.
· “A good balanced GSD isn’t going to be able to compete at the top levels in SchH. They need tons of prey for that.” (Probably true but WHY!?!)
· (At the local carnival) Your puppy is so calm and isn’t scared of anything. Is he in training? (They meant like a police dog, seeing eye dog...)
· A top competition dog can’t be a family pet, they need to focus on the work.

I fell in love with the GSD because they are versatile, noble, loyal, protective, smart... a jack of all trades. With these kind of statements, I am wondering if maybe I am mistaken. I know that no dog is perfect, but...

· Shouldn’t a GSD be able to do any dog “sport” that is related to obedience and physical work? I am not talking about hunting dog stuff, but general things like agility, fly ball, obedience...
· Shouldn't a GSD have steady enough nerves and not be so drivey or so timid that he can be a therapy dog? I am not talking about a dog that is going to be social and want everyone to pet him. I am talking about a dog that will walk with his handler, not bite, not bark, not scream and whine, greet people, and allow them to pet him without freaking out.
· Why is the “breed test” high awards only for dogs that are so drivey that they CAN’T do other things?
· Why in the world would a dog that is breed to be both a worker and a companion NOT be able to LIVE with its handler and still be competitive and conversely why do we have so many GSDs that can only work protection in prey? Not to mention how many can't do SchH at all.
· Why are people shocked when they see my puppy confident and undisturbed at the carnival, parade, and fireworks? Shouldn’t they be saying, “He’s a typical GSD.” Why are they so shocked? I think it is normal. Am I naive?
· Why do I have some SchH people looking down their nose at me because I want to take my SchH prospect dog to the hospital to cheer up sick people? Like if he can do that kind of work he isn’t “good enough” to do SchH work?

*Am I all wrong about what the breed should be?*


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Ruthie said:


> *Am I all wrong about what the breed should be?*


No, you are not wrong...... but maybe naive.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

gagsd said:


> No, you are not wrong...... but maybe naive.


Can you elaborate? I'm genuinely interested.


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## Todd (Sep 6, 2004)

I'm interested too. For the most part, I agree with the OP. Think I read a quote, maybe I dreamed it up, but it was that "a GSD was not best at anything, but in the top three at everything." Almost sure someone originally used versatile in the breed desciption.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I personally do not think your wrong. I do believe that a GSD can be the jack of all trades. Why would a GSD not be able to do SCH then go do therapy? Police dogs work all day then go home and become loving family members, I see no difference. It really depends on the dog, yes some are more suited for SCH and others more for therapy.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

fuzzybunny said:


> Can you elaborate? I'm genuinely interested.


It was meant tongue-in-cheek, hence the smiley.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> · Agility isn't for GSDs. (Maybe not going to beat the Border Collies, but not do it at all?)
> 
> GSD a.k.a. Jack of All Trades
> 
> ...


Nope.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

vat said:


> I personally do not think your wrong. I do believe that a GSD can be the jack of all trades. Why would a GSD not be able to do SCH then go do therapy? Police dogs work all day then go home and become loving family members, I see no difference. It really depends on the dog, yes some are more suited for SCH and others more for therapy.


I am saying they should be able to do BOTH not one or the other.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> I am saying they should be able to do BOTH not one or the other.


That is what I was saying too


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Amy, awhile back I made a thread about which lines I was interested in and what qualities I wanted in my next companion/schutzhund prospect.

I had a few people PM me and even one or so say on the thread that I was basically dreaming. That I was getting my hopes up.

I too regard the GSD as the "Jack of all trades" and they SHOULD be able to do it all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Great post Ruth. I agree with you. There has been so much emphasis on how bad schutzhund has become -- no longer a breed test, etc, etc, etc. I almost think some of the people out there need to go and get Dutchies or Malinois and stop telling us to get Goldens. A GSD is NOT a Golden, but it is NOT a Malinois either. 

As for agility, yes GSDs should be able to do it. They CAN do it as we have vids from the Nationals to prove it, but if you want to COMPETE in agility, you may be better off with a border collie, just because the course and the obstacles were pretty much designed for the size and agility of the border collie. Taking a great dane through a course designed for a border collie, well, you can see that the dog is not possibly going to be as quick. Titling a dog is one thing. Competing is when you are shaving tenths of second off by mastering your body language and getting the very best run. If you are down to shaving tenths of seconds off, well, a border collie might be able to shave a whole lot more time.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Because he supposed to be putting bad guys in the hospital, not helping them get out.


 
:spittingcoffee:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Don't tell my GSDs, they do or have done everything you mentioned! I love agility. I don't really focus on speed so much as correct handling. You will be better off if your dog has a certain conformation (shorter coupled) but that doesn't mean a specific breed. I focus on gaining speed by working more drive through the course, tightening up corners, getting more collection over jumps, etc. These have nothing to do with breed, but are all handling and training. Nikon got three first place ribbons at his first agility trial after only 6 weeks of agility training. It is not rocket science but it does reveal a lot about the dog, maybe not things specific to being a GSD but I certainly learned things about my dog by doing agility that I did not and probably would not have learned just doing Schutzhund.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Ruthie. 

With you completely on the versatility. Some might be better than others at any given venue but I believe they can do it all. I also believe they can be model (dog) citizens as well.
I have to laugh when I see some posts that seem to imply that if their dog isn't just on the edge of ripping the garage off the foundation or killing every small animal within a five mile radius then there is a problem with not enough drive or aggression or something else. I'd be afraid to go to sleep at night if i had a dog like that. Andy


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruthie, you can have it all...I had a distinguished member on this forum tell me that they didn't believe I was breeding litters that produced "police dogs and family dogs", there are people with this type of mindset, and also lack of knowledge. Now I agree that there aren't a lot of breeders doing that in the big scheme of things....but they certainly can't tell YOU that. You can have it all!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know many people who have multi-titled dogs that live in house with them, as a companion.

If you want to WIN at the highest levels of dog sport, you pick a certain type of dog and do a certain type of training to acheive this.

If you simply want to earn titles, have fun, and still have an all-round companion, of course the GSD can do all that and more.

The GSD is, and always has been, a VERSATILE working dog. From police and SAR, to SchH, to guide and assistance dogs, to therapy dogs--this versatility is what sets them apart from other breeds, IMO.

Personally, I wouldn't want to own a dog that couldn't live in the house and be a good companion, a dog I can take anywhere, a dog that I don't have to worry about. That probably means I'll never win at the highest levels of dog sport. And I don't give a rat's patootie about that.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I absolutely agree with you. I must say, the biggest disappointment about choosing a GSD has been the assortment of GSD owners I've met!
With certain exceptions, the vast majority have been the most self centered, stuck up group of breed fanciers I've met so far (I'm sure there's worse but I'm still young). 
When I had boxers (the clown of dog breeds, for those who are unaware), people used to stop their cars in the middle of the road (I actually had a Toronto bus driver stop his bus once lol), it's just generally accepted that boxer owners' lives will come to a screeching halt to meet another boxer owner no matter what they're in the middle of. Almost like children popping out of houses to run after an ice cream truck, screaming "wait! I have money" except they're yelling "wait! I have a boxer too!"
...well not GSD owners!! LOL 
IF by chance you happen to engage one in conversation, they immediately ask where your dog is from, lines, they start evaluating their ball drive, conclude that their dog is a much finer example of the breed than yours, that they're a much better suited "working home" and you're merely a _pet owner_ and have no business even owning a GSD, politely dismiss you and hope their *working dog* is not distracted or touched or ruined after the exchange.
I'd just like to say to those people, "Could you just get the  over yourself, please?"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Amy, just look at Eris! She is excelling in everything Dianna tries with her. I believe the GSD can do whatever is asked of them, as long as the handler is there to guide and show them the way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax's Mom said:


> I absolutely agree with you. I must say, the biggest disappointment about choosing a GSD has been the assortment of GSD owners I've met!
> With certain exceptions, the vast majority have been the most self centered, stuck up group of breed fanciers I've met so far (I'm sure there's worse but I'm still young).
> When I had boxers (the clown of dog breeds, for those who are unaware), people used to stop their cars in the middle of the road (I actually had a Toronto bus driver stop his bus once lol), it's just generally accepted that boxer owners' lives will come to a screeching halt to meet another boxer owner no matter what they're in the middle of. Almost like children popping out of houses to run after an ice cream truck, screaming "wait! I have money" except they're yelling "wait! I have a boxer too!"
> ...well not GSD owners!! LOL
> ...


Gee and the people chase after me asking about whether or not they are fixed, and then they tell me they have a female and they are sure the puppies out of the pair would be awesome. 

Uhm, uh, I only have bitches...

So, be careful what you are asking for. Turning down puppy pimps is another common theme on the board.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Amy, just look at Eris! She is excelling in everything Dianna tries with her. I believe the GSD can do whatever is asked of them, as long as the handler is there to guide and show them the way.


This past weekend Eris v. Wildhaus titled in agility on Saturday, and a SchH3 on Sunday....how freakin' awesome is that???...trainer is pretty OK too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know, Wayne....thats what I'm talkin about! I wish I had a 1/3'd of Dianna's talents! And that makes how many 3's they've earned?


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> Gee and the people chase after me asking about whether or not they are fixed, and then they tell me they have a female and they are sure the puppies out of the pair would be awesome.
> 
> Uhm, uh, I only have bitches...
> 
> So, be careful what you are asking for. Turning down puppy pimps is another common theme on the board.


At least that can be construed as a compliment. I'm just getting really fed up with the people who believe that "non working" homes should "find another breed"... I think those people have lost the plot entirely. 
It seems GSDs are better able to comprehend that they're perfectly suited to more than one thing better than most of their owners.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I love my dogs but they are as different as night and day. I guess I now know that the breed you pick probably should match your personality and lifestsyle.What I know now I would still pick a GSD but I would socialize early,work with a well established breed rescue who temperment tests or with a breeder who is reputable. The problem is I will want a pet quality dog who is strong enough ,healthy enough that I can take he or she camping,hiking do rally or agility ride bike trails etc. In regard to other GSD owners well at the local yearly AKC Dog Show Ive met alot of owners and breeders of many different breeds and I think we sometimes resemble the breed we chose. I've met some great people both breeders and show people but I honestly go so I can meet all the dogs,the people are just there. I will probably depending on my health get another GSD ;they are what I picture when you say dog. I will however work with trainers who love the breed and vets who are knowlegable. Bottom line while others may see my dog as inferior ,not worthy of the GSD name but I know they are protective, loyal,smart and mine. If I have been disappointed it is more with myself and my lack of knowledge and a few idiots .


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I know many people who have multi-titled dogs that live in house with them, as a companion.
> 
> If you want to WIN at the highest levels of dog sport, you pick a certain type of dog and do a certain type of training to acheive this.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I am talking about! I know it has been talked to death on the forum, but shouldn't the dogs who ARE the all around GSD with the solid temperaments and versatility the ones winning in the sport that is supposed to be our breed's test? 

Why do I hear people who compete at the regional/national level saying that if the dog isn't "buzzing" all the time he isn't a good dog? The attitude is that the dog doesn't have to think, they just have to want the ball bad enough.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Ruthie, you can have it all...I had a distinguished member on this forum tell me that they didn't believe I was breeding litters that produced "police dogs and family dogs", there are people with this type of mindset, and also lack of knowledge. Now I agree that there aren't a lot of breeders doing that in the big scheme of things....but they certainly can't tell YOU that. You can have it all!!!


I am thinking so!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> · Agility isn't for GSDs. (Maybe not going to beat the Border Collies, but not do it at all?)


Who's been saying that? or at least who's been supporting that point of view.

My girls disagree!:wild:



> They CAN do it as we have vids from the Nationals to prove it, but if you want to COMPETE in agility, you may be better off with a border collie, just because the course and the obstacles were pretty much designed for the size and agility of the border collie. Taking a great dane through a course designed for a border collie, well, you can see that the dog is not possibly going to be as quick. Titling a dog is one thing. Competing is when you are shaving tenths of second off by mastering your body language and getting the very best run. If you are down to shaving tenths of seconds off, well, a border collie might be able to shave a whole lot more time.


Generally, that statement is also true though, about reaching the top levels and winning. It's just a matter of size and physics. Same as a Great Dane is less structurally ideal then a GSD! There are some REALLY good GSD's that can even win at trials. But generally that means that the top BC's made a mistake and didn't qualify. Cause if a FAST Border Collie runs clean, and most GSD's run clean.......... the GSD can be beat out timewise by 10 seconds or more. Getting all that extra bone and length and weight around a course is just not the same.

But that shouldn't discourage people from running with a GSD. And there are AMAZING GSD's out there doing well. One almost even made it into the finals at the last AKC Nationals (just beat out cause of TIME). It is what it is, and I don't think of myself as running against thosee top BC's for time, I'm in with all the other Dobermans/Labs/GSD/Standard Poodles/Other big dogs !!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Well said freestep!*



Freestep said:


> I know many people who have multi-titled dogs that live in house with them, as a companion.
> 
> If you want to WIN at the highest levels of dog sport, you pick a certain type of dog and do a certain type of training to acheive this.
> 
> ...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> At least that can be construed as a compliment. *I'm just getting really fed up with the people who believe that "non working" homes should "find another breed"...* I think those people have lost the plot entirely.
> It seems GSDs are better able to comprehend that they're perfectly suited to more than one thing better than most of their owners.


I have said many times that people who want couch potatoes (no drive, low energy, etc..) should find another breed.
Somone always replies that just because they don't do SchH doesn't mean they shouldn't have a GSD.:help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yeah, but agility is a lot of fun anyway, even if there is always some nasty little border collie taking the class. I am too chicken to enter the girls in agility, though I have trained a couple. I am not ready for the ring yet. May never be. 

There was this nasty little staffie knocking me out of first in Rally for a while there... But that is a story for another day. In Rally or Obedience, I have a prayer for the pretty colors. In agility, I can see the big cane coming out on the field to drag me off.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ruthie said:


> This is exactly what I am talking about! I know it has been talked to death on the forum, but shouldn't the dogs who ARE the all around GSD with the solid temperaments and versatility the ones winning in the sport that is supposed to be our breed's test?


Probably because those that do a variety of activities and performance events with our dogs just don't have the time or financial resources to devote ourselves to all of what we do AND to get on the podium consistently at a level where you are recognized. 

Also I'm not real big on "routines" and pattern training. Honestly, doing Schutzhund and only that just bores me and my dogs after a while. I have nothing against people and dogs who put 110% into Schutzhund but that's just not me and I don't think it ever will be. 

When I trial my dogs I am really trialing them against my own expectations. Often I think I am our worst critic. Really, no one is going to remember or care how we did but me. The trial (in ANY venue) is both a way to expose the weaknesses and strengths and also give us the satisfaction of proving that we have worked hard and reaffirming what I usually already know needs a bit more work. For me it is not about the podium. Every dog club I am in regardless of venue is not one that actually hosts their own events. EVERY field, helper, decoy, dock, arena, course, and ring are away from our "home fields". Part of the test for me is throwing the dog into a completely new environment and seeing what happens.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> A good balanced GSD isn’t going to be able to compete at the top levels in SchH. They need tons of prey for that.” (Probably true but WHY!?!)


Because people no longer understand or know how to train a GSD. It is not really SchH that requires this, it is the ignorance in the trainers. I constantly hear people who want to compete in SchH talking about how their dog needs more prey drive.... not just for protection but for obedience.

I have talked a great deal about the inability of the helpers now to "get inside" and work with what is in the dog during protection. Most are simply teaching the dogs to chase because they lack the skills to bring out what else the dog should be using in protection. It is the same with the handlers in obedience. People think that aptitude in obedience is nothing but prey drive. That is absolutely not what obedience should be based in but the skill level in the people limits them to using a prey object to motivate their dog. Because so many are working this way, this has become what people are looking for in a SchH dog. Breeders are no longer looking to breed dogs with a higher level of pack drive or willingness, just a dog who will do back flips for a toy will do. That is not really a GSD but people no longer want a GSD for SchH. This is what I mean when I say that people are training GSDs like they are any old dog. The people are resorting to tricks and treats to train a dog that was always famous for being more genetically equipped than other dogs as far as obedience and willingness to work with their person. Now they are pretty much working for toys and the person is simply a delivery system.

Only people who have owned a dog like I have talked about will understand what I am saying. Those dogs require a whole other set of skills and like I said, most people do not have those skills nor are they interested in learning them. Requires an ability to read the dog and to have a feel for animals. Also an ability to praise and yes, even correct at just the right time and so on. Those who are less skilled need to resort to the use of toys and gadgets and there are lots of the "less skilled" doing SchH .

It used to be that people in SchH were much more interested in learning about the dogs. It is not like that anymore. There is way too much emphasis on learning training tricks vs looking at and working with each individual dog. I can't come up with a better way to put it at the moment. Not as clear as I would like to make it but it will have to do.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Ruthie said:


> Why do I hear people who compete at the regional/national level saying that if the dog isn't "buzzing" all the time he isn't a good dog? The attitude is that the dog doesn't have to think, they just have to want the ball bad enough.


Because these people are full of .


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

I tend not to care what other people think about my dogs or me unless it is the wife. If I want the dog to do a particular task then I'm smart enough to figure out a way to teach him the task.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> > Because people no longer understand or know how to train a GSD. It is not really SchH that requires this, it is the ignorance in the trainers. I constantly hear people who want to compete in SchH talking about how their dog needs more prey drive.... not just for protection but for obedience.
> 
> 
> That is exactly what I am complaining about!
> ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> What do you think, Anne? You mentioned pack drive for OB. I also feel that is important and I have always looked for that in my dogs even before I knew the term. But, isn't OB about addressing the whole dog, all the drives.
> 
> I may be completely off base, but it seems that if a dog is trained in OB with more than just prey drive, then the handler will not have as difficult of a time getting obedience in other phases. The obedience becomes about working with the handler and not about whatever the reward (or correction) is.


I guess you are wondering what I think about the second paragraph? If so, Yes, I agree. Those are the kind of dogs I have always worked with and look for to work with. They are the best dogs.



> One of the things that I don't like about the dogs that I have seen at trials that I assume are trained only in prey (again limited experience) is that it seems like they only have one speed... full drive. They are the ones that I referred to as screaming or buzzing when going to work. I will never be convinced that is a good thing.


I have worked one dog like this. In some ways he was a wonderful dog but the drive level was more than what was necessary and made training him more than a little difficult. A GSD, especially with a trainer with experience, should be easy to train. They should be looking to interact with their handler. I personally prefer dogs who view me as more of the attraction, not their ball or toy. I use a toy but it is part of the interaction with me, it is not a case where the relationship does not include me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> A GSD, especially with a trainer with experience, should be easy to train. They should be looking to interact with their handler. I personally prefer dogs who view me as more of the attraction, not their ball or toy. I use a toy but it is part of the interaction with me, it is not a case where the relationship does not include me.


In the end, during trialing, that is all I have...me, not a toy and I try to remember this everytime I train!

I guess I see some of the comments at the trials that Amy quoted is comparing the GSD to a Malinois
The flash of the Mal has now set the bar higher for the GSD in obedience. My dog will never have that flashy look, and I don't expect it of him. I guess if I wanted that, I would have gotten a Mal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you think that since some police departments have moved to malinois, that perhaps there is a desire to increase the qualities of the mal in GSDs in the working dogs, to gain back those won over to mals?


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## GROVEBEAUTY (Oct 23, 2008)

I haven't done SCH, but wanted to. I was told that my WGSL male wasn't going to be able to do SCH when he was about 11 months old. This was by a so called SCH trainer without even seeing the dog. I decided that I wasn't interested in trying when the person had that attitude from the beginning. He told me to go get a working line dog and then contact a local club. The club here is about 90 miles away. I guess I decided that was farther than I wanted to go, but still the comment bothered me. I eventually did obedience, rally and some agility training at home. My dogs have OB and Rally titles and I can take them absolutely anywhere without the slightest hesitation. I believe that the GSD should be a dog that can do anything. I have quit going to a couple of forums becuase of some of the attitudes that I have seen. I agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread. 

I also agree that a real trainer will train the dog with his want to please as the emphasis for achieving what you want. I don't like toys or treats for training, the dog has to want to please it's handler. 

I have also shown in AKC conformation. It is hilarious to see the looks my husband and I get. We always get looks from the other exhibitors and it's almost like I can read their minds. They are thinking, "what is that?" I really don't care because we are there to have fun. The ribbons and accolades are just gravy. I always go to a competition trying to better our last performance. 

Sometimes, but rarely will I run into someone who will want to engage in a real conversation. Mostly it is snide and impolite. The funniest thing I get is people will ask me if my dog is a registered GSD because it doesn't have the severe angulation of other GSD's they have seen. I just smile and say yes it's a registered GSD.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

No, your not wrong.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I guess you are wondering what I think about the second paragraph? If so, Yes, I agree. Those are the kind of dogs I have always worked with and look for to work with. They are the best dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> I have worked one dog like this. In some ways he was a wonderful dog but the drive level was more than what was necessary and made training him more than a little difficult. A GSD, especially with a trainer with experience, should be easy to train. They should be looking to interact with their handler. I personally prefer dogs who view me as more of the attraction, not their ball or toy. I use a toy but it is part of the interaction with me, it is not a case where the relationship does not include me.


Both paragraphs. I think you pretty much answered the summary, but I was wondering if you use other drives when training obedience besides pack drive that you mentioned. The way I was taught was that what ever motivator you use, and at that time it was only food, it is to help the dog understand and make it fun for him. Eventually, you can phase out the reward because the emphasis is on the work and the relationship with you (the handler). So do you use prey drive and food drive also when training obedience?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> It used to be that people in SchH were much more interested in learning about the dogs. It is not like that anymore. There is way too much emphasis on learning training tricks vs looking at and working with each individual dog. I can't come up with a better way to put it at the moment. Not as clear as I would like to make it but it will have to do.


Maybe that is why many of us don't feel satisfied *just* doing Schutzhund with our dogs. It is very important to me, but I don't think it really gives me a complete picture of my dogs, at least not to the extent that I personally am looking for. 

One of the things that I think it lacks is how the dog behaves and reacts in busy, chaotic situations. I'm not talking about just taking the dog to a new field to trial. I do a few other dog sports and many of them happen indoors in very small rings where you are performing with your dog and there is utter chaos 5 feet away separating only by a flimsy 2" folding ring gate. One of the things that I've seen as a bonus when walking out onto a SchH field (or something very similar like SDA) during a trial is that you have this whole field basically to yourself with the exception of the judge, possible a steward, and a dog on the long down presumably behaving. To perform the skills required to win at the top level I find difficult but the actually performance environment itself is like cakewalk compared to some other venues of "easier" activities. Today I had Nikon out at a HUGE national dog carnival type event and I entered him in a sport he's never done before. It was a "fun" event for us (very little training required at least not at the level we entered). Even more than performing in the event, what tested the dog was being in front of a large, cheering crowd, having to climb up and down steep shaky scaffolding, having the emcee yelling our names, having insanely loud music blaring while the dogs perform, having every other dog waiting in line sounding off as the other dog took his turn. I like to take my dogs out and do all sorts of stuff with them, so this sort of thing I noticed because my dogs don't simply go from crate or kennel to the training/trial field and back. These are things that some dogs really struggle with that I need to be non-issues for my dogs. The traffic portion of the BH or the practical exercises of the FO are not enough for me to see the true nature of my dog in these environments.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Maybe that is why many of us don't feel satisfied *just* doing Schutzhund with our dogs. It is very important to me, but I don't think it really gives me a complete picture of my dogs, at least not to the extent that I personally am looking for.


I can't say that SchH ever gave a "complete picture" but it did show more who the dogs really were, in the trial situation, than it does now. Go look at Gildo in the other thread. Was that a beautiful routine in comparison to the style we see now? Nope, but you got a VERY good idea of what kind of dog that was . Like I said in that thread, not one of my favorites but the protection routine made it clear WHY I didn't like him. Wouldn't need to work him myself to see, like you mostly do nowadays.

IMO, that is what is killing SchH . It is FUN when you work with a helper that brings out what is genetically in your dog. It was fun for me, learning how to do that. It was fun learning about drives and instincts and having more challenging conditions where you did not know what to expect, were not granted practice times on the field at big events and it was not such a shameful event if you didn't score a 99. It was also much more fun when the dogs were trained in a more serious way. Sure it was fun to score well just like now but it matters just a bit too much now. Probably because the scores will be on the internet. 

Things are more fun when they are more challenging, for me at least. Much of the challenge in the test has been removed and that is why SchH will die out. Not from the AR people, from what the powers that be have done to SchH.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> So do you use prey drive and food drive also when training obedience?


I have tried every way of training if only to see what other people are talking about. I have used food and clickers with small pups and I have trained a dog to a SchH 3 using mostly a clicker and a toy in obedience with almost no corrections. That dog responded to that method so, I used it. Was she my ideal as far as a GSD goes? No. Used the clicker on the dog I mentioned earlier also. I tried that because of the drive in the dog and the handling he had received prior to me getting him. He wasn't my ideal either . With the dogs I breed I use a collar and corrections and I will use a toy for a release. I feel like I need to know how well the dogs I am breeding will deal with pressure from me and how willing they will remain under that pressure. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can have a very happy, attentive dog who will prance in the heeling and be quick, when they are trained that way, especially the ones with the right genetics.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

there is nothing in this world like a dog that is genetically willing to please, totally in tune with the owner/handler it makes training fun, pleasant, and gratifiying, i am conviced this is a rare thing in the GSD. from my own experience of owning GSD's all my life i have only had one like this.........
i think alot of things come into play here.......the ability for a dog to bond and have that connection with the owner in every way, without that connection training has a whole different direction.........which takes a ton of effort and experience and even then there are always stepping stones along the way.....

i feel if you have a dog even with some genetic shortcomings as long as you have that bond and connection you can do anything.........

Drives are a great thing as long as there is a balance, unfortunately i don't see alot of that in the GSD breedings at times........to me a balance is a dog that has the drive to do any task, quick, responsive and willing to do it, but also has an off switch and can be a calm house pet, one that can tolerate people, be social without quirky behavior, one who knows the difference between a real threat and a non threat situation, one who has the ability to bond totally to the owner and connect with that person. i think in todays world of GSD's there are to many genetically unbalanced dogs and this takes a totally different training which the general public are not equipped to deal with, in some cases it can even be challenging for experienced people.....i see alot of GSD's that have been totally socialized from day one and still have people issues..........Aloof is one thing, but seeing people as threats is a genetic issue, which stems from and unbalanced, unstable genetic background. Maybe breeding for drives and such is a crap shoot even with stable backgrounds and pops up at times, but i see way to much of this for it to be just an occasional thing.......

to me this breed should be genetically stable in every inviroment...........sure training always comes into play, but you have to have the nerves to work with..........


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

It's a varied lot of handlers and dogs, some are annoyingly vocal. We build our bonds and shape desired behaviors and talk with and to our charges. We use every trick in the book to accomplish work. It's the dance of life with dogs. It's fun to learn, and we learn together. Well bred upper crust or not, the commotion is constant, even when still.

As for SchH, and dogs coming onto the field screamin, not my cup of tea, but hey, if it makes ya grin, let them scream away. I won't dis your noise if it's working for ya.

Look at, Listen to your dog, not the carnival barkers. Both handlers and dogs are individuals, and every relationship is unique, as is every session, track or routine.
Each is a moment in time only the team hears the beat to and we humans get distracted by our own kind and agendas and it can rob us of the focus we need to make the most effective use of those moments.

Just sayin, you ain't wrong, but who cares? Just love the one your with and carry on.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> A GSD, especially with a trainer with experience, should be easy to train. They should be looking to interact with their handler. I personally prefer dogs who view me as more of the attraction, not their ball or toy. I use a toy but it is part of the interaction with me, it is not a case where the relationship does not include me.


My young female Deja most people would think has fantastic prey drive. What she has is a strong desire to interact with me in a game or fight (though when she gets into hunt mode she can be very independent). Her drive for toys was pretty much created through games with me. She knows this is what I wanted and this is how we interact. 

In protection her fight drive is VERY high and, while she learns very very quickly, she also is a little harder to control so far than in obedience. She is picking up OB bites fairly quickly and learned to run blinds 5 to 6 with a clean H&B in a weekend. 

With this dog my praise means the world to her. If I start to get frustrated or mad (very bad) she will get confused. If I am fair and show her what I want then she is pretty darn easy. She is very much (except in protection) like my very first GSD. Both she and her brother (he has a ton of drive for toys, but is different in other ways) have made me bring out some old "ideas" in training that I haven't had to use in a long time. It is sad that most people would have probably discarded these dogs. 

I am seeing many more dogs now that work for the toy and nothing else. They don't care about the interaction with the handler. The handler is a means to their goal (toy or food) only. I am not sure this is because of sport or because these dogs don't require as much of a thinking handler.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Vandal said:


> With the dogs I breed I use a collar and corrections and I will use a toy for a release. I feel like I need to know how well the dogs I am breeding will deal with pressure from me and how willing they will remain under that pressure. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can have a very happy, attentive dog who will prance in the heeling and be quick, when they are trained that way, especially the ones with the right genetics.


:thumbup: :toasting:

Of the dogs I've titled, the one who is absolutely the happiest and most attentive dog I've EVER shown is the dog who needed the most pressure and physical corrections. I WANTED to train him "nicely" but that just wasn't his nature! Hope I never have to deal with another dog like that ever EVER again but I'm a much better trainer for having gone thru the experience.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Once again, I think I have maybe given the wrong impression. While there are dogs who require more compulsion to "get it" during the initial work, it certainly doesn't have to be a case of taking a dog's head off and after the initial work, ( maybe two sessions), there is no need for corrections because the dog understands. What matters most is that the praise meets or exceeds the level of correction , the timing of both is right and that the dog is receiving direction in a way that makes it easier to understand what the handler wants. More like a " no, not there...here" kind of thing. All the dogs I have trained this way prance like your picture, with the legs being thrown up high like that. There is a look to it that you can rarely get by luring or using a ball or clicker, because the handler becomes the attraction, or is already, because of the dog's genetics.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Once again, I think I have maybe given the wrong impression. While there are dogs who require more compulsion to "get it" during the initial work, it certainly doesn't have to be a case of taking a dog's head off and after the initial work, ( maybe two sessions), there is no need for corrections because the dog understands.


That pretty much sums up Mike.....well except for the "2 sessions" part, it took way more than 2 sessions  Those first couple of years weren't much fun, to be honest! and I'm talking about household manners and basic politeness, we didn't start serious obedience training until he was about 3. But it really was worth it, he has turned out to be a pretty fun dog to show. Fortunately he seems to have good longevity, since it took so long to get him to this point. He's 8 now, and finally somewhat mature!



> What matters most is that the praise meets or exceeds the level of correction , the timing of both is right and that the dog is receiving direction in a way that makes it easier to understand what the handler wants. More like a " no, not there...here" kind of thing.


Yes exactly! The correction has to make sense to the dog, and the praise has to be meaningful. I see too many people put everything into the correction and then when the dog gets it right they go silent, no feedback whatsoever. 



> All the dogs I have trained this way prance like your picture, with the legs being thrown up high like that. There is a look to it that you can rarely get by luring or using a ball or clicker, because the handler becomes the attraction, or is already, because of the dog's genetics.


Oh I agree 100%! I just put that picture up because I'm always hearing that dogs "shut down" because they've been corrected. Not really. Dogs can shut down when they don't understand the correction, or when there's too much pressure and it never ends. but the correction itself, well, we're talking about dogs that body slam as a favorite form of expression and bite each other when playing. A pop on the collar shouldn't cause them to "shut down"....but then you already know this <G>

I love that picture because it was taken in the Utility ring at a big trial. No we didn't get a placement that day, but Mike worked with a lot of enthusiasm. A schutzhund trainer I've worked with used to tell people that Utility sucks the life out of German Shepherds...but he had to admit that my dogs do look like they enjoy it. 

So dogs don't shut down because a trainer uses corrections, and it's not that obedience is "boring"....if the dog shuts down, it's usually a communication problem rather than the sport. That's MHO anyway.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ruthie said:


> One of the things that I don't like about the dogs that I have seen at trials that I assume are trained only in prey (again limited experience) is that it seems like they only have one speed... full drive. They are the ones that I referred to as screaming or buzzing when going to work. I will never be convinced that is a good thing.


I agree. I know a dog V rated in obedience (and maybe all three phases) with very correct, beautiful, flashy obedience but in MY opinion the dog is really a nutcase. NOT a dog I could ever take to a large event and just walk around. It's not even just a matter of on/off switch but when the dog is on he is so loaded his eyes look like they're bugging out. Now again, maybe if all I ever did was SchH that would be just fine but I've got to bring three dogs to a parade this weekend, they need to be able to calmly and happily walk in the parade (wearing silly t-shirts for the school we are supporting/promoting) and then socialize afterward. I can't do that with a dog that is literally screaming any time it's out of its kennel.


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## Dixie May (Jun 20, 2011)

*Being the Main Attraction...*

Dixie is my first GSD & about 13 weeks old. We have had her since she was 6 weeks & obviously we are in love with her!

She does a great job listening to commands with no distractions OR if we have a treat but obviously my desire is for her to listen and obey because she wants to please me. 

Any advice on how do I get to this point of being the attraction Anne?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hi, Dixie May. You may want to start a new thread so people see your question. 

ADMIN Lisa

****


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I agree. I know a dog V rated in obedience (and maybe all three phases) with very correct, beautiful, flashy obedience but in MY opinion the dog is really a nutcase. NOT a dog I could ever take to a large event and just walk around. It's not even just a matter of on/off switch but when the dog is on he is so loaded his eyes look like they're bugging out. Now again, maybe if all I ever did was SchH that would be just fine but I've got to bring three dogs to a parade this weekend, they need to be able to calmly and happily walk in the parade (wearing silly t-shirts for the school we are supporting/promoting) and then socialize afterward. I can't do that with a dog that is literally screaming any time it's out of its kennel.


:thumbup:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

dOg said:


> It's a varied lot of handlers and dogs, some are annoyingly vocal. We build our bonds and shape desired behaviors and talk with and to our charges. We use every trick in the book to accomplish work. It's the dance of life with dogs. It's fun to learn, and we learn together. Well bred upper crust or not, the commotion is constant, even when still.
> 
> As for SchH, and dogs coming onto the field screamin, not my cup of tea, but hey, if it makes ya grin, let them scream away. I won't dis your noise if it's working for ya.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

lhczth said:


> They don't care about the interaction with the handler. The handler is a means to their goal (toy or food) only.


And for those that know what they are doing, the toy is a means to their handler.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do think the toy is an important part because it creates a bridge between dog and handler. The dog shouldn't be working for the toy, but the toy should enable the interactions that are motivating and rewarding for the dog. I learned this lesson the hard way, trained one dog using luring for food and toys. Maybe I just suck as a trainer and/or had a dud of a dog but I found it very difficult to get the same "umph" from my dog without the toy in the picture. The lure had become a crutch and the dog was working for the TOY. It was also exhausting for me, having to bust out this toy and do this choreographed dance in front of my dog just to get his drive up to a workable level. Started over and learned that my dog actually responds best to a totally different style of training that uses more compulsion but the toy still comes as the release and the play which is fun and de-stressing. With my young dog my goal was NO luring at least not past the first half dozen reps to simply show the dog what I want. I just had the dog out for some play and obedience and was using the method of working the dog for a short bit and then releasing the dog to grab the toy (don't like it in my hands or on me, I want to move freely). We're able to work with the toy but not end up with a dog that is ONLY working for the toy or so overloading he's screaming and twitching for the toy. My neighbor interrupted us and I just asked the dog to sit calmly which he did while we talked and I inadvertently waved the toy around as I gestured. The toy by itself isn't much more than a chew object.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

vat said:


> I personally do not think your wrong. I do believe that a GSD can be the jack of all trades. Why would a GSD not be able to do SCH then go do therapy? Police dogs work all day then go home and become loving family members, I see no difference. It really depends on the dog, yes some are more suited for SCH and others more for therapy.



u cant compare a police going home and being a loving pet to a therapy dog, how sweet and gentle a protection dog is with its family does not tell us anything about the way it would act if we took that dog into a hospital and let a bunch of strangers pet and cuddle it with it, the dog may be okay with it or it may not be 

many protection dogs out there are great with their family but wont just let a stranger come up and hung or cuddle them in public


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How about a dog like Andy Maly Vah, police dog, Sch dog, PSA dog, CDX dog and THERAPY dog....you can have it !! In our club we just lost a Bouvier,13 years, that was one of the hardest, toughest dog in the club....absolute monster on the protection field....was therapy certified and went to the Nursing home and hospital every Tuesday night. There are definitely dogs out there that can excell at both....heck my 18 month old male Chris could very easily do both. Good German Shepherd breeding should be producing dogs that can do both....not every dog in the litter but definitely some.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I absolutely agree with you. I must say, the biggest disappointment about choosing a GSD has been the assortment of GSD owners I've met!
> With certain exceptions, the vast majority have been the most self centered, stuck up group of breed fanciers I've met so far (I'm sure there's worse but I'm still young).
> When I had boxers (the clown of dog breeds, for those who are unaware), people used to stop their cars in the middle of the road (I actually had a Toronto bus driver stop his bus once lol), it's just generally accepted that boxer owners' lives will come to a screeching halt to meet another boxer owner no matter what they're in the middle of. Almost like children popping out of houses to run after an ice cream truck, screaming "wait! I have money" except they're yelling "wait! I have a boxer too!"
> ...well not GSD owners!! LOL
> ...


I LOVE that post! :rofl:

I totally get what you mean. In fact, its what has kept me from taking my dogs to the local ScH club 

Also, a happy dancing banana holding a sign that says poop...I don't even know what to say hahahaha


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