# Finding a suitable breeder



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

This is half a vent, half a plea for help, so bear with me.

I am competing/titling my current dog in Schutzhund, and as I had discussed with my husband over the course of a year, we have finally decided on getting a second dog. We agreed that we love the GSD breed, just like our beautiful Klaus, and that is the breed we want to stick with. For completely non-negative reasons, I have decided to go to a different breeder this time, because I want one that has a greater emphasis on Schutzhund. However, I have kept my line of communication open with this breeder as she is an amazing person and has been providing me lifelong support with Klaus, so I suppose, I can always fall back on her if I can't find another.

I have spent countless hours scouring Google for a Canadian (I'm honestly not opposed to American) working line GSD. It could be Czech, DDR, West German working, East German, Slovak--it doesn't really matter to me. But I cannot find a breeder that doesn't have something weird in their FAQ or dogs with roached backs. I'm going to describe some breeders below and please, if I'm being too choosy and it's a non-issue, point it out to me. Maybe I'm just crazy.

One breeder advertised themselves as completely working class, and then had a dog with the most roached back I had ever seen advertised as a breeding dam on their page.

Another breeder said they do not go out of their way to socialise their dogs (and subsequently puppies), and if you want a dog that gets along with strange dogs (I read this as, isn't dog aggressive), don't get a GSD. I felt sick reading that, any dog can be amazing with proper socialisation. They also said they did not certify with OFA because they believe that SV of Germany is better--that is a red flag to me.

I found a Czech GSD breeder in the States, but they have so little breeding experience that I am concerned. The dam is titled, and the sire is _impressively_ titled.

I'm just looking for a straight backed puppy, we already have a red and black so I was hoping for a sable but colour is legitimately takes the furthest backseat to health and temperament. I would prefer the breeder also be in Canada (I'm in northwestern Canada, but I don't mind travelling/shipping).

So far my search has been exhaustive and an exercise in futility. Markers of a good breeder for me are titled in at least IPO1/SchH1, OFA hip rating of good (normal is okay in some cases, I suppose), a detailed but responsible health guarantee, proper puppy socialisation, and obviously a good, caring breeder willing to answer a million questions.

Am I being too picky? Or am I just struggling to find good breeders? Can anyone help out?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am in Alberta. Honestly the good breeders in Canada seem to hide. There are a few but they are rare.
When I was looking for a pup, I got so frustrated I gave up on this country. I had one breeder tell me he had been breeding for 20 years and his wife was a vet tech and he had never heard of DM. I had another tell me if I wanted a camping/hiking buddy I should get a lab. And I got the 'we don't do OFA' speech a few times, but they didn't seem to have any paperwork at all, from anywhere.
Carmspack is in Ontario, she's a member here.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you are a member of a schutzhund club -can't they help out? Even if its dogs that you like in the club where did they come from-not sure where northwestern Canada is -lol Definitely -there are good breeders in Canada-oh and if you have had a breeder that is giving you support that's a good breeder-imo


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Using the 'a' stamp program with the SV out of Germany should not be a red flag. It is a totally legitimate hip/elbow program recognized world wide. Some people find the OFA unreliable and inconsistent. It is a personal choice. 

It is not unusual for GSD to not want to play with dogs outside their pack. That does not mean they are dog aggressive. Being able to function and work around other dogs in a neutral manner is a important, though. Dogs reactive to other dogs seems to becoming more common so it is an important consideration.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If you're already training/competing in Schutzhund, it seems like your current club would be a great resource for finding a working line breeder for your next dog. 

How old is Klaus, and how far have you gotten with his training? Is he not doing as well at trials as you'd like and that's why you're looking to get another dog to do Schutzhund with?


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Isn't Raino Flugge in the Pacific Northwest part of Canada???? I am not sure I can spell the name of his kennel - Kiebitzenhunde??????

So you already have a showline dog.....and what is the focus in your club? Showline dogs or working dogs? I know there are some bigger showline kennels, and their clubs on that side of Canada.

There are tons and tons and tons of breeders in the US....Are you planning to travel by car to cross the border and get a puppy? Where is the best place for you to cross? I can think of breeders in WA, CA, IL, Iowa who all train and trial dogs...

Lee


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't think you are being too picky, but rather picky about the wrong things. We have a couple of members who are in Canada and into WLs. Perhaps start a thread with your location in the title and that way those who know breeders can help?


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Oh - and Lisa is absolutely right about the 'a' stamp program.....I have been doing OFA prelims and official certifications through the SV because elbow certification is required by the SV through their system to get a koer now. With 400+ in cost to do the x-rays, if they are nice solid hips through both, I do not redo them after two.

The SV certifies alot more GSD hips/elbows than OFA as well.


Lee


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Raino is in the opposite direction .
He is closer to you , wolfstraum, on the Atlantic seaboard , PEI , I believe.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

holland said:


> If you are a member of a schutzhund club -can't they help out? Even if its dogs that you like in the club where did they come from-not sure where northwestern Canada is -lol Definitely -there are good breeders in Canada-oh and if you have had a breeder that is giving you support that's a good breeder-imo


I never said my previous breeder wasn't great. I just said for unwritten, completely non-negative reasons, I preferred not to get a second dog from her (at least this time). I will absolutely go back to her if she's the only one I can find in the eight months I have scheduled myself for research. 

We are, unfortunately, a very small club. I've asked around and I'm just waiting for them to return my calls.



> Using the 'a' stamp program with the SV out of Germany should not be a red flag. It is a totally legitimate hip/elbow program recognized world wide. Some people find the OFA unreliable and inconsistent. It is a personal choice.
> 
> It is not unusual for GSD to not want to play with dogs outside their pack. That does not mean they are dog aggressive. Being able to function and work around other dogs in a neutral manner is a important, though. Dogs reactive to other dogs seems to becoming more common so it is an important consideration.


Yes, but a good GSD should be well socialised, instead this breeder warned specifically against socialisation and said they would not be doing this.



> If you're already training/competing in Schutzhund, it seems like your current club would be a great resource for finding a working line breeder for your next dog.
> 
> How old is Klaus, and how far have you gotten with his training? Is he not doing as well at trials as you'd like and that's why you're looking to get another dog to do Schutzhund with?
> Today 09:39 AM


As I said in the OP, while Klaus is a German showline (so his parents were titled SchH3), he is very capable in Schutzhund. I was only looking for our second dog. Klaus is over a year old (drawing a blank on specific months), and he is quite advanced in training for a dog that was started slowly (complications in puppyhood due to something I would rather not say).



> So you already have a showline dog.....and what is the focus in your club? Showline dogs or working dogs? I know there are some bigger showline kennels, and their clubs on that side of Canada.
> 
> There are tons and tons and tons of breeders in the US....Are you planning to travel by car to cross the border and get a puppy? Where is the best place for you to cross? I can think of breeders in WA, CA, IL, Iowa who all train and trial dogs...


Our club is Schutzhund so we look for more an all around utility dog. I am not replacing Klaus in competition or at the club, we are simply looking for our second dog. Bearing in mind this is a future thing and we don't intend to have the pup until 2017, most likely. I am only doing my research now.



> I don't think you are being too picky, but rather picky about the wrong things. We have a couple of members who are in Canada and into WLs. Perhaps start a thread with your location in the title and that way those who know breeders can help?


I'd rather not spam the board!  Guess I made my bed, title-wise. Picky about the wrong things? How so? I'm looking for drive, temperament, and health in a dog that can compete Schutzhund. I'm a little bit confused why you think that. Would you elaborate? Maybe I am being picky about the wrong things.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Are there other clubs close enough for you to see some of the training? That may be helpful with narrowing down what you want.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thank you for the suggestion! I can't believe I didn't think of that.  I will be headed down south next week to take a look.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Something to give a lot of thought to if you're looking to get a little stronger temperament in the new dog, do you have a helper who can work him? When you go, watch how the helpers work each dog and think about whether it will be a good match for you, where you train.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

FWIW I wouldn't put a lot of weight behind breeder socialization. If you're looking for a puppy, I'm assuming you're getting this puppy around age 7-10 weeks? Or are you looking for a green dog? Socialization is something that I do with my own dogs in the way that I see fit. I don't expect much from a breeder in that regard, and if the dog comes from strong genetics, it's really not necessary. If there are certain behaviors that are important to you, you can work on that once you have your puppy. Most breeders of good working lines that are going to be competitive in Schutzhund are probably not going to be doing a lot of extra work socializating their puppies. Being friendly around other dogs is usually not a huge priority for working and sport people. Now, breeding a dog that is clear-headed and neutral is absolutely important, but I doubt you will find many Schutzhund people that are into their dogs being friendly toward other dogs.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

I suppose you get a lot of questions from truly inexperienced dog owners/trainers, I assure you _I am not one._ I was concerned about socialisation because I want to support a breeder who is not only representing a good dog, but has good breeding/training practices. I don't want to purchase a dog from a breeder who has never been calmly walked by a dog on a leash, especially since in Schutzhund, part of the obedience is to downstay calmly while other dogs are worked nearby (never meeting). I did not want to involve myself with a breeder that said simply, "Bah, these dogs will always be dog-reactive."

A well socialised animal should have very little to no reactivity (no dog is bomb proof, though), and if a breeder just straight up shut her dogs in and refused to socialise her own dogs, how could I support that? Especially since a dam does have an influence on the personality of her puppies, I believe, anyhow.

This puppy, mind you, is hypothetical for us at this moment. We know we want one in the future, and began our research now. We will be receiving our puppy likely at eight to ten weeks of age, as standard, and will do the training ourselves, including socialisation. I don't expect a breeder to do the socialisation for me, although they usually start it (handling, introducing to new floor surfaces/grass/their own dogs), but as I said above, it wasn't puppy socialisation that bothered me. I am aware that I can work with my own puppy once I have it.



> Most breeders of good working lines that are going to be competitive in Schutzhund are probably not going to be doing a lot of extra work socializating their puppies.


There will be some component of socialisation, as you do not want to have a reactive dog in Schutzhund. Any unnecessary or inappropriate aggression disqualifies your dog, whether toward other dogs or to people. I am not going for being friendly, only indifferent, although a Schutzhund can be a great companion dog and as such non-reactivity is a must.

Sorry if that seemed very hard and cutting! I don't mean to come off as a stone cold cow, but I assure you, I know what I mean when it comes to socialisation.


----------



## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

VomKlaus said:


> This is half a vent, half a plea for help, so bear with me.
> 
> I am competing/titling my current dog in Schutzhund, and as I had discussed with my husband over the course of a year, we have finally decided on getting a second dog. We agreed that we love the GSD breed, just like our beautiful Klaus, and that is the breed we want to stick with. For completely non-negative reasons, I have decided to go to a different breeder this time, because I want one that has a greater emphasis on Schutzhund. However, I have kept my line of communication open with this breeder as she is an amazing person and has been providing me lifelong support with Klaus, so I suppose, I can always fall back on her if I can't find another.
> 
> ...


 You can check out Wendelin Farms in Quebec as well.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sorry, maybe I missed it. Where have the other people in your club gotten their dogs from? If you train with them regularly, just ask them at the next training? Right? 

As for socializing and stuff, plenty and I mean lots and lots of dogs competing in SchH do not like other dogs. Lots and lots. It makes no difference, as long as the dog is under control. They can't be lunging at other dogs on the field, but if they are, you shouldn't be on the field. Normal socializing and exposure is all you need. 

SchH/IPO is about control and training, not being good with other dogs.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I suppose you get a lot of questions from truly inexperienced dog owners/trainers, I assure you I am not one.


Don't be so defensive. No one is talking down to you and no one wants to give you a hard time. Most of what you're stating so factually, just isn't. All the stuff about socializing, training, every little thing with how you'll live with another dog will be determined by the dog. No matter what your previous experience is, this is going to be different.

Something I think is very important to think about. In terms of sport or working dogs, the better the dog, the more help you're going to need. Don't automatically dismiss someone because you may not like how they describe their dogs or what they think of as socialization. Be honest about what you really want to do. Its easy to look at the finished product and really want what you see, but there's a lot that goes into it you don't know about, and I'm not saying you aren't absolutely capable of doing it all, just as long as you're honest with yourself about how much you want it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

VomKlaus said:


> I suppose you get a lot of questions from truly inexperienced dog owners/trainers, I assure you _I am not one._ I was concerned about socialisation because I want to support a breeder who is not only representing a good dog, but has good breeding/training practices. I don't want to purchase a dog from a breeder who has never been calmly walked by a dog on a leash, especially since in Schutzhund, part of the obedience is to downstay calmly while other dogs are worked nearby (never meeting). I did not want to involve myself with a breeder that said simply, "Bah, these dogs will always be dog-reactive."
> 
> A well socialised animal should have very little to no reactivity (no dog is bomb proof, though), and if a breeder just straight up shut her dogs in and refused to socialise her own dogs, how could I support that? Especially since a dam does have an influence on the personality of her puppies, I believe, anyhow.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not really sure how to respond other than to say it sounds like making a mountain out of a molehill? As others have said, if you've already been competing in Schutzhund, ask the people you train and compete with where they got their dogs, take note of the ones you like, and start from there.

I bought a working line puppy from a breeder who consistently produces dogs that title and do very well at Schutzhund among other dog sports. Since I bought my puppy at 8 weeks, he had no real socialization outside of spending time with the breeders, the dam, and his littermates experiencing various things around their house and kennel. My dog never had issues walking on a leash. He still holds the record for being the fastest German Shepherd dog in the U-FLI flyball league and if you know anything about flyball, you understand that a dog has to have a clear head to compete in that environment (8-12 dogs loose at once, balls everywhere, people running and screaming, dragging toys and waving them around). He was never nervy or aggressive to people (other than in the context of actually doing bitework). I titled him in three sports aside from SchH and he completed his SchH3 several times including passing scores at multiple national trials with my friend, his handler in Schutzhund. He is now retired and lives with a family that has a wonderful little girl. Every week I see new pictures of him playing with "his girl". He's a wonderful dog, but not because the breeder spent hours socializing him as a wee baby puppy. His nerves are good, solid genetics. It's in the breeding. You can socialize your own dogs however you want, that's the beauty of finding a good breeder breeding sound dogs. If the breeder keeps their dogs in a kennel and doesn't care if their dogs hate all other dogs, what's it to you? If you want your dog to be neutral around other dogs in close proximity, train that.

Many people on this forum and in this thread have been doing Schutzhund for a long time (I don't even really consider myself in that category though I have titled two dogs), so we know what makes a good Schutzhund dog and we know what the rules are. I think most people who are regulars on this forum and do Schutzhund also have dogs that live in their homes as companions and pets, so we are not unfamiliar with owning and titling German Shepherds that have the drive and aggression to work on the field but the nerve and the off switch to be a pleasant companion. All of my GSDs have been my home companions first and foremost, and I personally have not had trouble finding ones that I can train and title as I please and enjoy living with at home (including bringing with me to work every day, bringing to family functions, having a family with a newborn live in my home for a month, stay a my friend's dog kennel while I'm on vacation and be fine with other dogs, etc). 

I just think that you're making the field of possible dogs and breeders unnecessarily narrow by only considering breeders that are intentionally doing early socialization with puppies, leash training, etc. When I buy a Schutzhund or sport dog prospect, I'm "buying" the potential - a dog that has a solid pedigree that allows the breeder and I to predict the temperament and health of the dog. I'm not really paying for early training and socialization by the breeder, that's my job.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what lines have you been looking at?


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I don't know anything about Canadian breeders. Checking with your club, discussing it with them (Who would you go to if you were looking for a new pup? type of question). is a great idea. Another one would be to look at the Canadian dogs that competed in the DVG America nationals last year - talk to those handlers. (Everyone likes to talk about their dogs, where they got them and how wonderful they are).
If you are open to US folks, I'll send you a PM about my "go to" for working line GSDs.Just let me know.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"If the breeder keeps their dogs in a kennel and doesn't care if their dogs hate all other dogs, what's it to you? "

this , then , is part of their standard and what they will reproduce .

do they even know their dogs?


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't think preventing reactivity is as simple as early socialization. Genetics is important here. What kind of early socialization are you looking for? If you look at this page you will see some of the socialization done by the breeders of my new pup (F litter). I couldn't be any happier with her. 

https://www.facebook.com/Meerhout-Shepherds-157810971768/?fref=ts


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I don't think preventing reactivity is as simple as early socialization. Genetics is important here"

exactly .


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Firstly, yes, I did get a bit short and I apologise for that. But I feel as though my concerns are valid and they should be addressed with respect, not with dismissal. A dog is a lifelong commitment and I have every right to turn down a breeder for any reason, especially if their breeding practices are unsatisfactory.



carmspack said:


> "If the breeder keeps their dogs in a kennel and doesn't care if their dogs hate all other dogs, what's it to you? "
> 
> this , then , is part of their standard and what they will reproduce .
> 
> do they even know their dogs?


I absolutely agree with the above statement. I can't imagine ever even supporting, or giving money to, a breeder who had standards such as that.

But it's all packed into one bundle, a dog's personality is a sum of genetics, early socialisation, and then how its new owner raises it as well. I want all parts to be equally good. Early socialisation is not inherently important, but it is a good indication of the breeder's standard and practices.

I spoke with my fellow club members, although like I said, we are few and there are some inactive members. A club member referred me to Wildhaus, I can't find anything negative about them and they seem to be very ethical, so that I do like.

I'm also curious about Haus Dooling but I cannot find much information about them (I think they are a genuinely small breeder).

And I am very open to going to the US for a dog  I have no problem with that at all.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Haus Dooling has nice dogs and Susan is top notch. Yes, she is a small breeder and a national level competitor.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

VomKlaus said:


> But it's all packed into one bundle, a dog's personality is a sum of genetics, early socialisation, and then how its new owner raises it as well. I want all parts to be equally good. Early socialisation is not inherently important, but it is a good indication of the breeder's standard and practices.
> 
> I spoke with my fellow club members, although like I said, we are few and there are some inactive members. *A club member referred me to Wildhaus, I can't find anything negative about them and they seem to be very ethical, so that I do like.*
> And I am very open to going to the US for a dog  I have no problem with that at all.


I have a Wildhaus dog, have another from their foundation lines(Beowulf sired) and train with many from their breedings. If you look on their website it is very transparent. All litters are listed with the dogs accomplishments. Several generations are doing very well from the foundation line(these breeders don't buy and sell off breeding stock, but have a planned program with their lines) The dogs are very versatile in the venues the owners are training in, not all are in IPO yet most every one that I've seen will turn right on when tested in the sport. People doing agility or competitive obedience with their dog for years will come and visit and decide they want their dog to experience a round of bitework. It is very cool to see the helper tap that genetic sleeper and the dog is excited to have it awakened. 
To be honest, thresholds and reactivity is genetic. You can make a dog be reactive however.
I teach my pups to be neutral to other dogs from the getgo. Other dogs are not to be looked at as a friend, foe or anything other than another dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was referring to the items already mentioned by Lisa and Lee, prior to my post. 

SV hip ratings, socialization issues that you were concerned with. They had already clarified those points of concern you mentioned.

Good luck finding your new puppy! 





VomKlaus said:


> <snipped>
> 
> 
> I'd rather not spam the board!  Guess I made my bed, title-wise. Picky about the wrong things? How so? I'm looking for drive, temperament, and health in a dog that can compete Schutzhund. I'm a little bit confused why you think that. *Would you elaborate?* Maybe I am being picky about the wrong things.


----------



## GSD2727 (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, I believe I know which breeder you are referring to about not socializing the dogs/pups. I would suggest that when read something that you are not sure about, instead of assuming the worst, contact the person and ask for clarification. IMO that is an excellent breeder and one that I would purchase from in a heartbeat. Very nice dogs. You have missed out on an excellent breeder and upcoming litter due to your concern over a statement that you took way too extreme IMO. Their dogs are NOT dog aggressive and their pups from previous litters are doing very well. They are actually socialized and exposed to things pretty darn well, I see videos and pics posted all of the time with some of what is done with the pups when they are with the breeder. 

With that said, I tend to agree that GSDs are not generally "Golden Retrievers with other dogs". They are usually not "dog park" dogs. I do not go out of my way to socialize my dogs with strange dogs either. Why should I? 

IMO there are other things that I would be more concerned about and looking at when choosing a breeder.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you are looking at getting a puppy now rather than in the future, Paul Harnage in VA, breeder of Kao Von Vereinigte Stolz - USCA National winner, WUSV competitor, has some male pups from Athos Wanner Hohen available - their dam is from a littermate of Kao...I have seen the dam in training, the sire in training (at a seminar) and of course, know Kao as well, having seen him often at training/seminars as well as competitions.... 

Paul is an establish breeder whose dogs go back to a female he had titled in Belgium, where she also produced a WUSV dog who was owned by a well known judge/competitor from the Netherlands....that litter should give you a workable pup with good nerves....

Lee


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

GSD2727 said:


> Well, I believe I know which breeder you are referring to about not socializing the dogs/pups.


She's a Canadian breeder, and I had actually spoken to her some time before you commented, I asked her to clarify what she meant by that statement and said she merely just did not want people comparing her dogs to Labradors. She is not sure whether her bitch is actually pregnant at the moment, she told me. We had a nice chat after that, and I'm keeping her on my shortlist. I'm not sure how I missed out on anything at all, in the end, because it's not like I meant offense, or ridiculed her publicly, and in the end, all I did was contact her for clarification (before you commented, like I said).

I think you're being far too aggressive and focused on one aspect of my post. I am allowed to turn down any breeder for whatever reason I'd like, as well, because a dog is a lifelong commitment and I'm allowed to be picky. But I also mentioned temperament, drive, good health (including the necessary tests), and I look for good breeding practices. This post was not about the breeders I overlooked but actually about the breeders I couldn't find.

Thank you for your help nonetheless.



> If you are looking at getting a puppy now rather than in the future, Paul Harnage in VA, breeder of Kao Von Vereinigte Stolz - USCA National winner, WUSV competitor, has some male pups from Athos Wanner Hohen available - their dam is from a littermate of Kao...I have seen the dam in training, the sire in training (at a seminar) and of course, know Kao as well, having seen him often at training/seminars as well as competitions....
> 
> Paul is an establish breeder whose dogs go back to a female he had titled in Belgium, where she also produced a WUSV dog who was owned by a well known judge/competitor from the Netherlands....that litter should give you a workable pup with good nerves....


Honestly, I would prefer to wait for the right pup rather than purchase one now.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I see the dam from the litter Lee is referring to is from Vom Diamond kennels. They are putting out some nice dogs. If I were looking for a dog, I would be looking at this kennel.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thank you for the response! I will definitely look here.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

VomKlaus said:


> She's a Canadian breeder, and I had actually spoken to her some time before you commented, I asked her to clarify what she meant by that statement and said she merely just did not want people comparing her dogs to Labradors. She is not sure whether her bitch is actually pregnant at the moment, she told me. We had a nice chat after that, and I'm keeping her on my shortlist. I'm not sure how I missed out on anything at all, in the end, because it's not like I meant offense, or ridiculed her publicly, and in the end, all I did was contact her for clarification (before you commented, like I said).
> 
> I think you're being far too aggressive and focused on one aspect of my post. I am allowed to turn down any breeder for whatever reason I'd like, as well, because a dog is a lifelong commitment and I'm allowed to be picky. But I also mentioned temperament, drive, good health (including the necessary tests), and I look for good breeding practices. This post was not about the breeders I overlooked but actually about the breeders I couldn't find.
> 
> ...


If you seriously want a puppy that is workable - then look at a breeder who has produced workable puppies *consistently* and has proven themselves...sure there can be new breeders with 1 or 2 litters who might work too, but I like loading the dice! I recommended Paul as he has been in the sport for over 15 years, and produced multiple dogs who have been titled....the von Diamond female he has is actually from his own bloodlines - unfortunately the Kimon Quenta daughter should carry his kennel name, when people don't understand the system for naming, mistakes get made and dogs misidentified with incorrect kennel names
...von Diamond is actually much newer to the sport and breed than Paul. Now he registers pups in his kennel name before selling them...

The right puppy can be out there and available right now - or in 6 months....don't just arbitrarily turn down a puppy because it is available now....

Litter from Athos von den Wannaer Höhen and Jessie Vom Diamond

Lee


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thanks Wolfstraum (didn't recognise you in guest form for whatever reason)! That's very helpful information, I will definitely look at Paul but I won't be taking a puppy now. Like I said, these are future plans and I am only doing research now. My timeline for the puppy is late 2016 to 2017, so I will see if I can go onto their list, but won't be buying a puppy now.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you are doing research -why not visit other schutzhund clubs in your area-it might be a good way to find a breeder


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

VomKlaus said:


> Thanks Wolfstraum (didn't recognise you in guest form for whatever reason)! That's very helpful information, I will definitely look at Paul but I won't be taking a puppy now. Like I said, these are future plans and I am only doing research now. My timeline for the puppy is late 2016 to 2017, so I will see if I can go onto their list, but won't be buying a puppy now.




Ok - I missed it that you are looking for that time frame! There are many breeders to look into if you are starting now!


Lee


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

holland said:


> If you are doing research -why not visit other schutzhund clubs in your area-it might be a good way to find a breeder


Thanks for the response Holland. As I said, I have looked into doing this  I was hoping to get people's experiences here as well.

And no problem Lee, and yes, there are plenty! I'm excited to begin this long journey forward and I hope there's a lot I can learn about the breed by talking to many breeders before I make my decision. I emailed Paul Harnage (he was hard to track down) to ask him a few questions and I am excited to hear back.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Hey Lee/Wolfstraum, I just want you to know that I do really want to PM you back, but my post count needs to be 15 and I can't PM anyone yet! D:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

vomKlaus can you explain this "that has a greater emphasis on Schutzhund"
in relation to your current dog , and in relation to the bloodlines that are of interest to you .

It sure sounds like you found a good supportive breeder ,who you may fall back on if you can't find another . 

If I were that other breeder -- that would bother me .

So are you saying you want a podium dog?

Are you that podium trainer?

I bet Debbie Zappia could take a pound puppy and hit the mark . 

If your club can't train to that level you won't have the same success.

Emphasis on Schutzhund , IPO , is not an emphasis on the best qualities of the breed .


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thanks for the reply Carmspack.

I would prefer another breeder because my current dog was bred from showlines. He is a conformation dog through and through. The breeder is great, and if I wanted to show in conformation, I would go through her--but this is not what I want at this time. I said that I would go back to her to dispel anyone who thought perhaps I found an unethical breeder. Preferably, I would like to find a new breeder who offers the same support, and cares just as much about her dogs.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

An old Wolfstraum post 

something to think about vomKlaus so that you don't get wooed by "the emphasis on schutzhund" 

"

AGAIN - not specific to any one dog!!!

Trialing and competition is not the end result...it is a _*sport*_.....the Schutzhund test was designed as a demonstration and critique of breedworthiness.....in today's world, we have gone to totally unbalanced dogs - ie extreme prey, extreme anatomy with no drive, extreme aggression, extreme ??? whatever you want to classify the ASL as, extreme mediocrity as BYB dogs surpass all others in far far far greater numbers to the detriment of the breed and the poor dogs who are euthanized by the tens of thousands in this country....

I HAVE trained wtih some very very good people
I HAVE trained several dogs and gotten quite a few titles
I HAVE seen Belshick and a few progeny "up close and personal" (albeit when he was a senior)
I HAVE been around some top competition dogs - even handled them a bit
I HAVE bred some nice dogs - competition, LE, SAR, HGH, various other sports besides IPO - and my breeding is going into the second generation in IPO now and doing pretty well at more than club level (Nationals - IPO3 WDC and Regionals in US, National level in Belgium)
Every one of the dogs I have bred (that I know of) are also stable, balanced, family companion dogs as well - live in a home, not a kennel - whether competing in a sport or just as family dogs


VERY few people need a dog who is so over the top that he is difficult to control....personally, I have trained more than one dog who was pretty extreme in drive....that quite a few well known trainers said would V in protection at the National level.....do not have the resources (club, helper, back up at home, $$$ and now physical ability added) to pursue that as a goal....one dog leaked drive too much and it took me, as a novice, quite a while to control him...he did V in protection, and was very much admired by eveyone who saw him or had him on a sleeve....ruined in OB unfortunately - between Dean and Anne, I got enough solid training advice to get him through OB with enough points to pass, but it took almost 2 years - those dumbbells are 40 points!!.....So I know that these extreme dogs can be heartbreaking.....if an owner does have the right helper/trainer/advice - the dog ends up washed out, given away, sold .....

The people who want, need, can deal with a dog that over the top are few and far between - and they buy adults in Europe....most people out there want a good dog, with good temperament who is biddable, who they can live with. 

Someone remarked about stud dogs who had many breedings being sold....Lots of high profile dogs are sold - when breeders move on to the newest popular dog, when the owner has an upcoming dog, selling an established male is common - dogs are BIG business.....why let a dog languish in a kennel when his breedings are dropping off, you have another one to promote and you can get a big price for him....it is REALLY common in the show line world, several BSP winners have been sold when the demand for breedings drops off....some before they are even used for breeding if the price offered is big enough.....it is business, pure and simple....

Lee 
__________________


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thanks Carmen,

I do understand the implications of having a working breed and I have lived in my life with many working breed dogs. I assure you that I am not an inexperienced owner and I am not concerned.

Like I said in the OP, I am looking for high but balanced drives, good temperament, good topline, and good joint health. There's obviously much more to it, as well.

I am not a clueless puppy buyer, I swear! Haha.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have never met Raino but visited his club several times and met quite a few of his dogs -you might want to contact him-he is in Prince Edward Island


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

ADMIN WARNING: I've deleted a couple of posts that were but petty bickering and personal disagreements being aired out in public. Please keep such arguments off the board.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Vom Klaus, what other working breed dogs do you have experience with? what other venues of handling working dogs have you participated in in the past? It will help people suggest breeders that are more apt to produce dogs that will be a fit for you and your husband. Best results come about when people are HONEST about what they know and what their experiences are. 

(and Hi! How are you, LOL!)


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

(Oh hello! :laugh thank you for the great advice

My experience with working breeds actually borderlines on the strange. Many rottweilers in the family, which are powerful dogs of course, but on a different level of the GSD. While not competitively (that I know of), my father trained obedience and his dogs to track, and my grandfather trained his dogs the same, and I was privy to the same experiences growing up.

I also have hands on experience with Cane Corsos, the Japanase standard Akita Inu, other GSDs of work line, though I did not own them personally. Oddly enough, I have owned a Pomeranian which I trained obedience, but never actually ended up competing. I also have had the pleasure of owning two Newfoundland/Border collie crosses, and while they were frustratingly difficult at times, they were highly intelligent. I have trained plenty of dogs (clicker/R+ training), and am currently scheduled this week to train another working line GSD whose behaviour is out of control due to owner inexperience, plus, again, this week scheduled to train a mystery cross due to inappropriate behaviour around a baby.

I fully understand the consequences (and subsequent joys) of owning a working dog. I already wake up around 4am to 5am (depending on my mood) to work with my current dog, as anyone who is serious about sport needs to train at least a little bit each day. I also study the theory of training, and learn from other trainers as often as I can, because I believe in having as many "tools" in my training toolbox as possible. We use a flirt pole, go hiking wherever possible, do trick training just to keep him engaged and thinking.

I have worked with plenty of dogs, working breeds included, I train pro-bono around my local area because there are plenty of inexperienced dog owners who just need a little bit of help. My area of focus in training, is teaching the owner methods to control their dogs, such as rewarding the dog for displaying good/appropriate behaviours, because training a dog whose owner won't be consistent is relatively futile. Yes, new to Schutzhund this year, but I have a wealth of experience training dogs outside of it that I think it will translate well.

Thank you, if you have any more questions regarding my experience, as I'm sure I left some out, please feel free to PM me (as I think this is my 15th post and I can finally reply!)


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> The right puppy can be out there and available right now - or in 6 months....don't just arbitrarily turn down a puppy because it is available now....


This is very true Lee. I have ended up with my best dogs because they came along when I wasn't looking and not because I was looking. Heck, I just sold a very nice young male to a woman that wasn't looking right now, but loved what she saw in this pup. 

As far as the litter Lee is recommending, I bred to Athos in 2013 and am very happy with the litter. Super nerves, a lot of drive for the work, very clear, good with kids, social in a social setting, very very high hunt drive (though this is strongly in my lines). The dogs are doing detection work, nose work, IPO, PSA and are all also pets.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

Thank you for the reply, but like I said, this is a puppy that I would want late 2016 or some time in 2017.  I'm not just turning it down for no reason, I promise.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think I will clarify this 

"Are you that podium trainer?

I bet Debbie Zappia could take a pound puppy and hit the mark . 

If your club can't train to that level you won't have the same success."

sometimes, no , never mind, more often than not , people have dreams of making it big time in the sport -- IF only they had the RIGHT dog . 

I called upon Zappia's name because she is an excellent trainer - she could basically take any dog and make the pigs ear a silk purse -- exceptional training skills 

on the other hand there are people who have treasures , raw diamonds , that will never get to shine because the dogs are better than the people handling them . 
If results don't come quick , because of lack of practical and intuitive skills, then the dog is a bum and sent off .

Clubs -- there are old style balanced dogs that are not modern-prey oriented , and never come out to their best because they have never been properly decoyed , or trained.

right dog - wrong hands , wrong club.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dogs that aren't prey monsters tend to be the ones that won't get the highest points in IPO. How many judges like that type, the more serious dog that isn't the flashy type? 
I agree, they need to be worked differently and luckily, in my area there are still some good helpers that are known for balancing drives and bringing along the dog that has more defensive genetics.
SDA is a better venue for these dogs, they are not judged so much on the handling skill but the dogs instinctive genetics.


----------



## VomKlaus (Mar 19, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I think I will clarify this
> 
> "Are you that podium trainer?
> 
> ...



Thanks Carmen, but I will clarify what I'm saying: I'm not looking for a podium dog. I'm looking for a dog that has a strong, straight topline, good hips, good/clear temperament, balanced drives, etc. Thank you for your input. I'm not looking to go to championships or anything. Like I've said multiple times, I understand the complications that come with owning a working dog. This will be a family pet for us, as well as a dog that will be in Schutzhund, _again fully understand prey/play/defensive drives_.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can't find one?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think it's that hard to find a good dog, sure there are alot of unscrupulous breeders out there, but the good ones far outweigh the bad ones..If one does their research, knows the breed, gets referrals, even a newbie shouldn't have a hard time finding a breeder/dog that is versatile as well as everything on your list..

Alas, some purchase on impluse, no research and end up with whatever they end up with..

There is no "perfect" dog out there, but there are many that can meet the needs of the person looking. Every dog teaches us something different. 

Good luck in your search.


----------



## tunez33 (Mar 21, 2016)

Not sure where or how far you're willing to travel, but this breeder in Mass will have a litter on April 16. It was one of the first breeders I started talking to but I don't plan on competing at all with my next dog just basic agility and etc and won't be training for schutzhund.

http://www.abbykennels.com


----------



## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

holland said:


> I have never met Raino but visited his club several times and met quite a few of his dogs -you might want to contact him-he is in Prince Edward Island


I have a dog from Raino if you ever want to chat. Cuervo's a great dog with his own little quirks. We've had our fair share of challenges with that being said I would not hesitate to get another dog from him as he's been supportive every step of the way in our training/bringing home baby/any other issue that has popped up a long the way.


----------

