# the anti-vacc crowd should be put in jail-rant.



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

sorry but i am sick of hearing so many people that think scientific research and google research is the same thing. 

having a parvo outbreak here and get so many "experts" refusuing to vacc cos you know vaccinations are just a big government conspiracy to achieve......god only knows what?

same people don't vacc their kids. 

sure there are side effects with vaccs statistically and yes some organisims WILL die as a result of vaccs and yes some vets/docs uncritically promote over-vaccination, and yes there is a profit motive to sell vaccs - vaccine research and production is not publicly funded DUH....none of which is a conspiracy just unfortunate facts.

if yr child or pet is healthy and you don't vacc it's NOT proof that vaccs are a con, it means that those that do vacc has lowered the risk of your child or pet being infected while at the same time YOU have increased the risk of everyone else getting an infection mainly innocent children and pets.

new-age, psuedo-scientists lock em all up before they take us back to the dark ages.

rant off.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

over vax is the issue, not vaxing in general. Pups should go through the vaccine series with rabies done a few weeks separate from the others...and depending on location, some vax's are not necessary. I'll go with Dr. Dodds protocols for any puppies I have, (as I am in the US) and she has researched it extensively.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

hey it's a rant, it doesn't have to be well thought thru so go make sense somewhere else


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Four of my seven dogs have had NO vaccines other than Rabies (required by law). I had Parvo go through my house about a year ago or so. Only two of my dogs were affected. One got a mild case, the other got it worse. Both were treated at home and both recovered fully.

Getting Parvo is not a death sentence. If you catch it fast and treat it correctly you can save your dogs.

Interesting note - the other two dogs in my house that had never had a vaccine did NOT catch the Parvo when my two puppies got it. I didn't separate or quarantine - everyone was together throughout the whole episode. I believe that fresh foods and limited chemicals result in stronger immune systems that can handle things better.

JMHO YMMV


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ymmv??????


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

x11 said:


> Ymmv??????


 your mileage may vary??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

gotcha, thats a new one to me.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i just want to rant about medical professionals whose "continuing education" is done by drug company representatives and who cannot or will not open their minds to the fact that oftentimes the "cure" is worse than the original disease and who have forgotten that they took an oath to FIRST DO NO HARM. it is DISGRACEFUL. i have spent years, YEARS watching it and have personally experienced it too many times to even remember. i feel terrible for people who do not have medical experience and knowledge to protect themselves and their animals from the professionals they go to for help. fortunately, because of cost constraints, the western medical system as we know it is on its' way out. not fast enough, tho.

ps...to clarify...not saying never vaccinate, not saying all docs are bad docs. not saying emergency medicine is not necessary and life-saving. am saying that someday we will look back and be horrified at things like chemotherapy and cholesterol lowering drugs. and ohmygod, drugs like avandia, that they know are bad, are proven to be bad, but the diabetes drug market is a billion dollar a year industry, so they just slap a "warning" on it, settle the lawsuits for millions, and keep on keepin' on. disgusting.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

katieliz said:


> i just want to rant about medical professionals whose........


 
sure, let it all out.

you know what they call alternative medicine that is proven to work....medicine.

aspirin would be one such example. 

i peacefully and respectfully disagree with about every thing you said - sick need protecting from the quacks and charlatan predators that prey on the sick and weak.

i do agree tho that a purely medicinal approach has way up there on the law of diminishing returns it is so expensive talk billions to bring a drug onto the actual market there is very little incentive to do so, conversely to bring a benign at most remedy on the market only costs you the packaging and no intellectual input other than slick marketting.

i also agree that the medicinal approach that tends to not consider the individual so much will be upgraded to a custom-made approach for that specific organism or at least the ones that can affor it and it will rely more on bio-technology than structural organic chemistry which is what most of the medicines now are based on. 

this new approach will hopefully make it before the return of the dark ages some are trying to put us back to.

imo.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

When diet is wrong ~ Medicine is of no use
When diet is correct ~ Medicine is of no need


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@gatorbytes, you betcha...nutrition is everything (which, of course, is not to say that if you're in a car accident your diet will save you, x11, lol).

@x11, i respectfully and peacefully want to bet that you've never worked in the medical field and that you're under, oh probably, 30. i'll also bet you're likely not diabetic, were prescribed avandia by a doc you put your trust in, and then had a heart attack...only to learn that the doc got his facts about the drug from the drug rep...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

people on good diets don't get sick????


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@x11, if you wanna see the future of medicine, check out the cleveland clinic and "functional medicine". alternative, holistic, integrative...all old hat now.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> When diet is wrong ~ Medicine is of no use
> When diet is correct ~ Medicine is of no need


HOGWASH.....


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

nothing is black or white, but for the most part, yes. go read a book called food as medicine. of course, we're kinda screwed now with all the gmo crap-on-a-cracker...and the nutrient depletion of the world's soil.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

katiel yr right about all except the under 30, and thats the one i would have preferred you to be most right about. 

now for my profile of you - do you really believe the world is a worst place because of modern medicine?????

that just seems an extremely ungrateful, and ignorant statement, you prolly have never been in a car with a steering column thru yr chest and out yr spine (i haven't been in that situation just sayin) or any number of things that were just killers less than a few generations ago - having a baby 100 years ago - big risk of a slow and painful death for the mother...just saying.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

you're not readin' my posts closely enough. emergency medicine is another thing entirely. emergency medicine is a lifesaver. western allopathic medicine is not so good at treating chronic conditions, and the cure is often worse than the disease. 

funny but the under 30 was the one i had some doubts about, lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wish we could trust the education and experience of vets and doctors. 

Had I trusted doctors my mother would be dead right now though without them she would be dead too. Had my sister trusted the neonatal intensive care unit, her child would be dead now, more than once, though without them, Gwennie would be dead too. 

If my puppy buyer trusted the ER vet and not called me, she would have had her spayed due to pyometra that was not pyometra, and the real problem probably would not have been found. 

If my vet hadn't of revaccinated my parents seizure dog with a five way, lepto, and rabies all at once, he would not have had 3 days fo cluster seizures. My dad asked and said I didn't think it was a good idea. The vet poo-poo'd it. 

My mom was bleeding and had fatigue and was going to the doctor for probably a year, and she just kept giving her more anti-depressants and paid attention to my father's ailments. She NEVER suggested a colonoscopy. My brother and I had to work on my my mother to get her and Dad to get them. The brochure in that doctor's office had a list of things all of which my mother was save hispanic, and the doctor never suggested it. By the time we got them to do the colonoscopies, the cancer had gone into the lymphnodes and my mom had to endure radiation and chemo, and more chemo, after the major surgery. She is alive today thanks to other doctors and surgeons. 

My sister's baby was in the NICU. At one point she found the baby not breathing and her O2 level way down. She had to get the baby going again. That O2 can cause blindness if you have to have the baby on 100% for any time. The retinas detatch. And the baby had a bad brain bleed after the fact, two brain bleeds, and the doctors suggested twice they sign a DNR on her baby. Gwennie is two now, she dances and talks and walks and is smart. She could have listened to the doctors and she could be dead now. She could have trusted them, and she could be dead now. 

These people have a lot more education and experience than my sister had, or that I have for that matter, and yet, had we trusted them to do right by our families and pets, we would be the ones grieving.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

sparra said:


> HOGWASH.....


ahhh...lol...yuck it up


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

What a terrible thing to say. I want my right to not vaccinate or delay vaccines just as much as you want yours to fully vaccinate. My kids, my dogs, my choice. And if your dogs are vaccinated, my unvaccinated dogs should be no of concern to you. 

My kids are not vaccinated so far (6& 10 months.) My dogs are minimally vaccinated. 
And I did a lot more research than a google search. I have several books on the subject. As well as many articles written my doctors. 

I am not anti vax per say, but we do need to green our vaccines. Space them out and dose them according to the child or dogs size. Not one size fits all. And not 6 viruses at once. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Let food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food ~ Hippocrates

Hippocratic Oath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel;


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> ahhh...lol...yuck it up


Hehe......I saw you use that term in another thread and I thought "Gee i haven't heard that for a long time"


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> My kids are not vaccinated so far (6& 10 months.) My dogs are minimally vaccinated.
> And I did a lot more research than a google search. I have several books on the subject. As well as many articles written my doctors.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And you get away with it because I do vaccinate my kids......just sayin...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

oh sue, dear lord. i remember when you went thru all that with your sister's baby. all those things, all those experiences your family had. there are so many docs (and vets) out there like that. they won't listen and they're very narrow minded. are there good ones? of course. are there trauma surgeons who save lives? of course. and, in all fairness, docs are so handicapped by insurance and time constraints. vets tho, well, no such constraints on them.

our medical system is completely broken (with the exception usually of emergency/trauma medicine), and you literally put your life on the line every single time you enter the hospital or take a prescribed drug. 

okay, end of rant.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

May Cause Outrage: The 9 Biggest Big Pharma Fines Ever

Think pharmaceutical companies have your best interest at heart? Then why have they been repeatedly fined billions of dollars for fraud?

In GlaxoSmithKline's case, the company pleaded guilty to the charges, which included the unlawful promotion of certain drugs (Paxil and Wellbutrin), failure to report safety information, and false price reporting. In a statement on the Department of Justice's website about the case, James M. Cole, Deputy Attorney General said, “At every level, we are determined to stop practices that jeopardize patients’ health, harm taxpayers, and violate the public trust—and this historic action is a clear warning to any company that chooses to break the law.”
If pharmaceutical companies would go to these lengths to sell more drugs, how trustworthy can the products be in the first place? Could these fraudulent practices be the wake up call that leads to an exodus away from "treating" symptoms with prescription drugs that may or may not be effective and usher in a return to holistic healing treatments and prevention methods?

*6. Allergan (2010): *Botox—the cosmetic toxin injected into the face to smooth out wrinkles and plump up lips—was misbranded by Allergan as a treatment for pain, headaches and cerebral palsy. *The ruling also found that the company paid doctors $1,500 to attend presentations on the drug's other uses in order to help the company push out its product*. *The fine: *$600 million.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/02/s...roceedingsofthenationalacademyofsciences&_r=1&

In the new study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, two scientists and a medical communications consultant analyzed 2,047 retracted papers in the biomedical and life sciences. They found that misconduct was the reason for three-quarters of the retractions for which they could determine the cause


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Retractions in the scientific literature: is the incidence of research fraud increasing? -- Steen -- Journal of Medical Ethics

More science


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I have no doubt that one can glean a gazillion articles from the internet pointing to the fraudulent, corrupt, dishonest state of modern medicine.
But is this reason to right it all off??
We just had The Good Friday Appeal over here......raised over 16 million dollars for the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. So many tragic stories of little kids with terrible illnesses which I refuse to believe all stem from "poor nutrition". But also so many uplifting stories of what modern medicine can do for these sick little kids and what true heroes these doctors are that basically give up a normal life in order to look after these kids (nurses included) I just can't believe that it is all bad....there is real hope in these stories and I am so Thankful to be living in a time when modern medicine can save so many lives.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Getting Parvo is not a death sentence. If you catch it fast and treat it correctly you can save your dogs.
> 
> JMHO YMMV


Parvo just with through 3 puppies at the rescue I help with $3500 later they are alive and healthy. Most people don't have that kind of money. Now it is going through the animal shelter which had at least 15 puppies last week when I was there. I'm sure they are not going to put the energy or the money into saving them. So sad to know that many if not all will be put down, because someone didn't vaccinate. So Sad!!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> My kids are not vaccinated so far (6& 10 months.)
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:shocked:

Glad my kids are grown up and out of school and not going to school with your kids. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near non vaccinated kids.


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## skier16 (Feb 21, 2013)

I graduated from college several years ago and I know that my school REQUIRED immunization to be enrolled, only exception was on religious grounds. I dont really know enough to have an opinion on the matter just wanted to add that anecdote.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Parvo just with through 3 puppies at the rescue I help with $3500 later they are alive and healthy. Most people don't have that kind of money. Now it is going through the animal shelter which had at least 15 puppies last week when I was there. I'm sure they are not going to put the energy or the money into saving them. So sad to know that many if not all will be put down, because someone didn't vaccinate. So Sad!!


I know I don't have that kind of money. For 7 bucks at tractor supply I can get my dog a 3 way vaccine and have my aunt give my dogs the shot and I have some piece of mind that my dogs are protected. And my aunt warns me all the time about vaccines she had a husky go into a seizure and die after a vaccine, so she always warns me to be careful and watch my dogs carefully when they are on medicine. But parvo is common in my area so I feel like its worth it to me. Sometimes I think my vet recommends things I don't need, but when I take my dogs to the vet she is always very impressed with their health.

My area is a rough part of town so not everyone takes care of their dogs here lots of lose dogs, dogs on chains and dogs out in yards 24/7 with no shelter. I know a lot of them don't go to the vet and they don't seem to get sick all that often, so there's that.


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> When diet is wrong ~ Medicine is of no use
> When diet is correct ~ Medicine is of no need


 i didnt need to read further.... this 1000 times!!!:thumbup:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

x11 said:


> new-age, psuedo-scientists lock em all up before they take us back to the dark ages.


I am not sure this is the case. The same college biochemistry professors (my undergrad degree is in biochem) who were ranting about trans fatty acids in the 70s were also expressing grave concerns about the growing (then) trend of immunizing for anything and everything and the resulting damage to the immune system. The pre-med and pre-vet students took "dumbed-down" versions of these chemistry classes that did not go into this kind of depth._ FWIW, I do not claim to be up to date on biochem-worked in a different field for years. But it does give some foundational knowledge_.

Those old profs were *not* exactly new age......one of them was a polio survivor who had one leg shorter than the other. I believe in some immunizations....I knew polio survivors....and I was one of the first immunized (1955) as an infant with the salk vaccine -polio killed a lot, and did a lot of damage - but wonder about the SV40 (simian virus in some early batches) that could be lurking..waiting....

I, like many, do give core immunizations (though after the one year booster we are "done"), 3 year (sigh) rabies, and am grateful for all the challenge studies that have already extended re vaccination intervals. I have spent hours upon hours researching leptospirosis only to reveal that the veterinarian who tried to scare me into the vaccine was unaware that the main servovar infecting dogs right now is not in the vaccine and that the vaccine their clinic carried (Pfizer) does NOT prevent colonization of the kidney and shedding of spirochetes but only lowers clinical syptoms (IOW allows the dog to have a low level undiagnosed chronic infection instead of an acute one that would be swiftly dispatched with antibiotics)---Having a dog who works in the woods, gets cut up by briars, and has to work in areas populated by rodents, I am *stilll* on the fence about what to do-.

Most vaccines are unnantural in how they are given because most would be knocked out by the immune system of a healthy animal before they even get to the bloodstream. The fact that cats are given rabies in the leg so they can amputate when cancer develops should tell us that this is not all that uncommon. I would not want to mess around with rabies but am glad the challenge studies are ongoing on this one!

Dark ages / New age? Sure there is always some of that but there is a lot of science behind the concerns.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> :shocked:
> 
> Glad my kids are grown up and out of school and not going to school with your kids. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near non vaccinated kids.


Do you not trust the vaccines to protect your kids? Actually, the unvaccinated kids are much more at risk getting sick from your kids. I delayed vaccines in mine who were NOT in day care but the main source of polio is from the infected feces of the recently vaccinated. I decided though, epidemiologically, natural infections of polio are "gone", that I would immunize my kids for this to protect them from the immunized! 

Footnote: I think this is why the country switched from a weakened live oral polio vaccine to injected, inactivated in 2000. My kids were immunized in the 80s.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

x11 said:


> having a parvo outbreak here and get so many "experts" refusuing to vacc cos you know vaccinations are just a big government conspiracy to achieve......god only knows what?


I think that distance from death and consequence allows people to do this. When you see a picture like this and know that the only puppy who lived in that picture is the one that you have (due to a parvo outbreak in the shelter where multiple stalls of puppies and dogs like this were killed - and then a couple of months later a distemper outbreak resulting in over 200 dead), it is quite upsetting. Not the shelter's fault that people drop animals off, drop sick animals off and don't vaccinate from puppy to adult - there are definitely areas of this country where herd immunity is losing ground. 

Then when you realize that the people not vaccinating are not just the anti-vacc but the people who only think that distemper vaccine keeps their dog from having a bad temper, or who just let them die if they get things...you don't know if you should scream or cry. 

People need to be careful with what they recommend, that's for sure. If there is a conspiracy, they are doing it wrong, because it is the last few years of life that are the most profitable for the medical fields!


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

skier16 said:


> I graduated from college several years ago and I know that my school REQUIRED immunization to be enrolled, only exception was on religious grounds. I dont really know enough to have an opinion on the matter just wanted to add that anecdote.


Most states have at least two exemptions if not three. Medical, religious and personal. For personal all you have to do is sign a card or waiver 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> :shocked:
> 
> Glad my kids are grown up and out of school and not going to school with your kids. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near non vaccinated kids.


This makes me laugh. Your kids were inevitably around other non vaccinated kids many times and you just didn't know it. Plus the whole point of vaccinating is that your kids are supposed to be protected from the diseases. So what exactly would you be worried about? 


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> :shocked:
> 
> Glad my kids are grown up and out of school and not going to school with your kids. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near non vaccinated kids.


But if your kids are vaccinated why would you be worried about non vaccinated kids? If anything non vaccinated kids are at a higher risk.

Vaccines, I am relieved my girls are older. When they were babies/toddlers I did whatever the doctor recommended. Knowing what I know now, it would really stress me out having small children when it comes to vaccines. 

With my boy, I will not give vaccine cocktails. He will not get vaccines that are not high risk in my area. He will not get them every year for the heck of it. Do you know dogs that are titer tested can show immunity for YEARS.

In the end, everyone does what they feel is best.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

trcy said:


> your mileage may vary??


lol


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would be stressed out too. They are giving NEWBORN human babies vaccines right after birth. We know about maternal antibodies in dogs causing vaccines not to "take" because the pups already have antibodies circulating..........helooooo.....any body out there? Some mothers actually *do* breastfeed and give their kids their own protection and all those vaccines are doing is subjecting a brand new baby to risk as they won't actually be immunized.

I honestly believe only a few are on the "NO VACCINE" bandwagon. Most want a reasonable approach and you can thank them for getting those booster recommendations pushed out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I tend to think that healthy dog with a normal functioning immune system does not need a customized diet and can handle a reasonable vaccine protocol. My puppies get 3 distemper/parvo, then rabies at 6 months, both a year from the last previous, and then every 3 years from then on, probably nothing after age 7 or so unless the dog is still active in training/competition then only rabies as required by law until the dog is "retired".


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I guess my point would be that, had not people been challenging the thought behind annual vaccinations in the first place, that 3 year cycle would have never been considered...so now folks are even challenging the 3 year cycle.....all driven by data.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I would be stressed out too. They are giving NEWBORN human babies vaccines right after birth. We know about maternal antibodies in dogs causing vaccines not to "take" because the pups already have antibodies circulating..........helooooo.....any body out there? Some mothers actually *do* breastfeed and give their kids their own protection and all those vaccines are doing is subjecting a brand new baby to risk as they won't actually be immunized.
> 
> I honestly believe only a few are on the "NO VACCINE" bandwagon. Most want a reasonable approach and you can thank them for getting those booster recommendations pushed out.


Yes exactly!! I'm not anti vaccine at all. But I want more research. I want to get rid of some of the nasty ingredients. I don't want my 7-8 pound infant to get the same amount of these ingredients and virus as a 150 pound adult. And I'm not saying my kids will never be vaccinated. In fact, most likely I will do some of them eventually. Very spaced out and only one at a time. 

I hate the whole "anyone who doesn't vaccinate are idiots" mentality just as much as the people hopping on the no vaccine or delayed vaccine band wagon without doing any real research. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

As for the dogs, studies show the vaccines last about 5-7 years if not more. So why would I give a yearly booster? It's common sense, really. 


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

I largely agree with the OP.

I think distrust of vaccines is just linked to a larger trend that distrusts authority (and big business), sees conspiracy theories everywhere, and frankly assumes an attitude that they are part of the 'informed few', while the rest of us are sheep. I also think it's largely been empowered by the internet. People now have access to more information than anytime in history and it's easy to find something that will support pretty much any theory you want. Does that necessessarly make us more informed? I don't believe so when I see comments that all vets who recommend kibble are in the pocket book of the pet food companies, or that all pharmaceutical companies are evil monsters, or that modern medicine is broken. It's not that these systems don't have flaws, sometimes big ones. Of course I don't believe the pharmaceutical companies have my best interest in mind. Their bottom line is money. But is it not possible that they could make money and produce effective drugs ( at least every now and then?) Is there no such thing as independent scientific research in veterinary or human based medicine? Yes, there are a great many things that doctor's and vets don't know, but that doesn't mean they know nothing. To dismiss all of this would be akin to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." ...and although I consider myself to be reasonably informed, no amount of googling and reading is going to place me on the level of a MD who has nearly a decade of education in the field and practices every day. 

We now have the longest life expectency in the history of humankind. In the west, our life expectency is significantly longer (sometimes decades) than in many parts of Asia and Africa. While the causes for this are complex and many, advances in medicine (including vaccinations) over the last two centries was one of the key factors. It had nothing to do with the relatively recent trend to go green, eat natural / organic, explore alternative medicines, etc. ....and I'm not saying these things don't have value. What I am saying is that their value does not entirely negate everything the "mainstream" discovered before.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Going off topic but whenever vaccine conversations come up I always think about a girl I use to work with. Her son is autistic, she's of course desperate for answers as to why and what happened to her son. She showed me pictures of him as a baby, up until he was two. I will say he clearly had a very animated face, eyes were bright, alert, you can see him engaged in the photos with whatever he was playing with, then when he was two, he slowing started to decline, emotion and light literally seemed to leave this boys face, no expression. The pictures were very hard to look at. She really does believe that the a vaccine or the vaccines he got hurt him. He was fine, then he was not I know stories like this are discredited by most of the medical community but it does make you wonder, gives me pause for sure.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Since I have an education in Animal Care and spent years in a veterinarian clinic, I don't consider my opinion to be based on "google research".

I have seen the results of titer tests on dogs enjoying a minimal vaccine schedule. One dog, 5 years old, was still registered very high antibodies for parvo/distemper 5 years after his initial vaccine set. I have seen this time and time again for those that titer - why re-vaccinate when there is no need? Harsh and harmful chemicals in the body for what? The dog is already as immune as it's going to get.

I don't do kennel cough or the other vaccines because I think they are useless - dog will still get sick despite the vaccine and dogs typically do not die from the flu or kennel cough unless they have immune system issues.

I never recommended not vaccinating. My recommendation was to do a minimal vaccine schedule with parvo, distemper and rabies only. Titer instead of re-vaccinating every three years. Check before you give the shot.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I will give Lisl any required vaccine that is needed to insure her health. Me, not so much.

I had all the usual childhood ailements, measles, German measles, mumps, chicken pox. 

The last flu shot I had was in 1987 and I've had the flu exactly once since then in 2004. I refuse to have a flu shot.

Everyone I work with both at this job and past positions has had the flu at one time or another. I always asked after they return to work if they were immunized and they always answer 'Yes'.

Now, I don't know whether or not vaccines and immunizations screw with your immune system, but judging from my experience and others' with flu, I would say yes, they do mess up your immune system.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> This makes me laugh. Your kids were inevitably around other non vaccinated kids many times and you just didn't know it. Plus the whole point of vaccinating is that your kids are supposed to be protected from the diseases. So what exactly would you be worried about?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I doubt my kids were ever around non-vaccinated kids. The schools I sent them too required them. Same with swim team and softball. We had to prove vaccinations for them to play. 

Things we thought we have gotten rid of are now making comebacks because some people are not vaccinating and schools are allowing it now. Whooping Cough is becoming a huge problem in this area. My kid had asthma when she was little. When you are sitting up in the middle of the night with a kid who can't breath you might feel differently. 

I'm from a different generation. Years ago we gave dog shots left and right. My dogs had 4 puppy shots and were gave boosters every 6 months because I worked at a vet clinic and that is what was recommended if you worked with sick animals. My kids survived and are healthy and my dogs lived longer back then than they do today, so blaming everything on vaccinations In My Opinion is just more junk science. I'll stick with what I know works!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A reprint of an article for a study - Unfortunately I cannot verify against the original article as most of these articles are on a pay for basis. The only discussion I have seen on this study is from the anti vaccine crowd. Ok, not recent, 1999.

Purdue Vaccination Study

An example of a commentary - I take dogs naturally with a grain of salt but please send in the counter-arguments

The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies | Dogs Naturally Magazine

I believe this was done recently
It raises more questions than provides clear answers because the pups were killed at 22 weeks.

Also, to my knowledge, virtually all drug studies done on dogs are done on laboratory strains of beagles. With known genetic variation and propensity to disease, does that give us the info we need to know?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Well, I guess my point would be that, had not people been challenging the thought behind annual vaccinations in the first place, that 3 year cycle would have never been considered...so now folks are even challenging the 3 year cycle.....all driven by data.


I agree, and I personally think the 3 year cycles are probably too much (not sure I'll ever vaccinate Nikon for distemper/parvo again) but I also think for a healthy dog with a functioning immune system it doesn't matter as much. I'll adjust my protocol based on what research shows (and what the law allows) but I'll never not vaccinate for anything nor do I believe that diet can prevent my dog from getting rabies, parvo, or distemper.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Nikki had a mild case of parvo when she was 9 weeks old. It almost ripped my heart out when I had to hand her over and she had to stay for treatment. She stayed at the 24 hour emergency clinic and the high estimate I was quoted was this: $900 per day for 10 days with of course no guarantee that she is going to make it  She ended up staying for three days.

Parvo is a horrible illness and it can very easily be a death sentence 

Michaela


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> When diet is wrong ~ Medicine is of no use
> When diet is correct ~ Medicine is of no need


 
I have to politely disagree on this. I have had Crohns disease for most of my life, and if it wasn't for medicine I probably would be dead. What would be healthy living for most such as eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, its the opposite for me. My body cannot handle it, I get very sick. Trust me, I have tried the holistic route. It ended me up in the hospital and had part of my intestines removed. Lesson learned. Medicine helps keep it in control, I do have flare-ups. But, nothing like before when I decided to go "all natural and healthy".


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

bunchoberrys said:


> I have to politely disagree on this. I have had Crohns disease for most of my life, and if it wasn't for medicine I probably would be dead. What would be healthy living for most such as eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, its the opposite for me. My body cannot handle it, I get very sick. Trust me, I have tried the holistic route. It ended me up in the hospital and had part of my intestines removed. Lesson learned. Medicine helps keep it in control, I do have flare-ups. But, nothing like before when I decided to go "all natural and healthy".


Lots of us with autoimmune issues have this problem. Holistic/homeopathic medicine can be deadly. Healthy food and homeopathic remedies tend to be very high in salicylates, and for those of us who are sensitive it makes things worse and not better.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Lots of us with autoimmune issues have this problem. Holistic/homeopathic medicine can be deadly. Healthy food and homeopathic remedies tend to be very high in salicylates, and for those of us who are sensitive it makes things worse and not better.


Where do you think the auto-immune issue came from in the first place?

From eating an apple?

Or from aluminum, mercury, formaldhyde, MSG delivered directly into your tissues/blood?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Where do you think the auto-immune issue came from in the first place?
> 
> From eating an apple?
> 
> Or from aluminum, mercury, formaldhyde, MSG delivered directly into your tissues/blood?


Mine came from genetics. My mother had autoimmune issues, so did my great aunt, and so on and so forth back before we started poisoning our environment. Almost every female member of my family has had some sort of autoimmune problem. BTW if eating that apple put you in the ER swelling like a balloon you might think twice before recommending it. I know you don't understand. People who don't live with this can not even begin to imagine what it is like.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@gatorbytes... re where the autoimmune issue came from in the first place...exactly. @shepherdmom...about the healthy food/homeopathic remedies salicylates thing = hogwash, lol. wherever did you get that idea? if you were diagnosed correctly by allopathic medicine, of course you wouldn't be going the homeopathic, et.al, route anyway. misdiagnoses is another one of the huge problems in allopathic medicine. they don't want to (or don't have time to), LISTEN to the patient. @bunchoberries, did you get your diagnoses accurately and in a timely manner when you presented with symptoms? because if you did, ýou're very fortunate. you indeed could have died. i've seen it happen.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@shepherdmom, you'd have to go back way further than great, or even great-great ancestors to get back to before the environment was being poisoned. some regulations have been effective, it's just that we keep dumping the toxins into the environment at rate that all the regulations in the world can't keep up with. virtually all these autoimmune diseases can be traced back to toxic load and/or or leaky gut. and, just out of curiousity, are you ever concerned about living in nevada with an autoimmune disease?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

katieliz said:


> @shepherdmom...about the healthy food/homeopathic remedies salicylates thing = hogwash, lol. wherever did you get that idea? .


It is a very real thing. 

The Basics of Salicylate Allergies
Auckland Allergy Clinic – Salicylate Sensitivity


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@shepherdmom...you're misunderstanding...i'm not saying salicylate allergies are hogwash. i'm saying that the theory that homeopathic remedies and/or healthy food "tends to be high in salicylates" is flawed.

once again, i repeat, i'm not saying that someone with crohn's disease can eat anything but a very specific diet. i am NOT saying what would be a healthy diet for the rest of us is, in any way, appropriate for a patient with crohn's. 'kay?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

katieliz said:


> @shepherdmom, you'd have to go back way further than great, or even great-great ancestors to get back to before the environment was being poisoned. some regulations have been effective, it's just that we keep dumping the toxins into the environment at rate that all the regulations in the world can't keep up with. virtually all these autoimmune diseases can be traced back to toxic load and/or or leaky gut. and, just out of curiousity, are you ever concerned about living in nevada with an autoimmune disease?


Katieliz, my mom was born in 1925, my great aunt in the mid 1800's. Are you saying that in the mid 1800's Midwest the environment was poisoned enough to cause these issues? I seriously doubt it! They both had RA. It has been in my family for generations! As far as living in Nevada, I've had autoimmune urticaria and angiodema since I was a kid, long before I moved to Nevada. My cousins who also struggle with autoimmune issues live all over the place. It doesn't matter where we live, we all get some form of it.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

This story of writer as to why she would never get a flu shot...

check out the adjuvants (bullet list) and see how this relates to chronic conditions.

5 Reasons Why I?ll Never Get a Flu Shot | TruthTheory

Remember too, that many chemies were used prior to banning in factories, fields etc....what about weapons manufacturing during WWII...all the women made the bombs as most men went to war...

Hereditory immune issues could fall under epi-genetics...the idea of epi-genetics is if you change terrain, you can alter disease process. You can only do that with good old fashioned vitamins, minerals and anti-ox found in food.

Nutrition and the Epigenome


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> Katieliz, my mom was born in 1925, my great aunt in the mid 1800's. Are you saying that in the mid 1800's Midwest the environment was poisoned enough to cause these issues? I seriously doubt it! They both had RA. It has been in my family for generations! As far as living in Nevada, I've had autoimmune urticaria and angiodema since I was a kid, long before I moved to Nevada. My cousins who also struggle with autoimmune issues live all over the place. It doesn't matter where we live, we all get some form of it.


Yes. I would say the environment could have been poisoned enough in the mid 1800s to cause autoimmune issues. This was the start of the Industrial Revolution and the Mississippi river was a main water way with towns sprouting up along it. They dumped chemicals that were used in all industries out the back door. While the chemicals may not have been as harsh as they are now, they were still poison. Take a look at any 3rd world nation that is industrializing right now and look at the poisons being dumped. Take a look at Mexico and China. Heavy metal poisoning can cause many things as well. Look at the Middle Ages and how many people died from lead poisoning. 
While these don't cause genetic issues such as RA, it does cause many problems including mutated genes that could lead to RA.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

anyone with autoimmune issues could be served by limiting exposure to toxins. nevada is very high on the list of most toxic states in the country.

yes, i am saying that in one form or another there has always been polution of the environment by toxins. only a matter of degree. i also think, and this is just a personal theory, that there is some form of "cellular memory" passed from generation to generation. i also think it will soon be clear that where genetics may really come into play is in the "protection against" arena, thru the p53 gene and it's relation to breakage or shortening of telomeres (omg not even sure if i spelled that right). 

i am still curious as to whether your were diagnosed accurately and in a timely manner by allopathic medicine. did your docs listen fully and respectfully to you? my experience has been that "when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". cut and drug. do you know how much nutrition education is given in medical school. has any md you've ever seen asked you how much water you drink? seriously 80% of the population is dehydrated. hydration and nutrition are so incredibly important. the bedrock of our health. western medicine spends NO TIME learning about these things. well, maybe things are changing, i've been retired for a while now.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as this tangent goes, I am open to *anything that works*. I suffer from horrible, debilitating migraines which are triggered by weather (yay, the ONE trigger I cannot control) and so far the only thing that has not only worked, but is always effective and extremely fast acting is a prescription "triptan" drug (from which I suffer no side effects other than a slightly drowsy, happy feeling which is like icing on the cake!). No other supplements, dietary changes, essential oils, etc have come even close. What works works, whether it's a "normal" pharmaceutical or homeopathic or herbal, I do not care. How I got these migraines I don't really care either because it doesn't change the fact that I have them and they really suck, to say the least. This particular drug has literally changed my life. I thank my GP every time I see her (and this is the same GP that has suggested non-pharmaceutical means of treating my chronic sinus infections, so she's not quick to write a 'scrip and send me out the door). Same goes for my dogs. If they have a legitimate bacterial infection I will run a course of antibiotics, but I don't put them on pred for every little skin legion or hotspot like some vets will suggest. If there is a risk in my area, I'll often use the vaccine. Rabies for example.....not something I'm going to mess around with considering what happens to the dog if they *might* have been exposed but are not vaccinated.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

katieliz said:


> i am still curious as to whether your were diagnosed accurately and in a timely manner by allopathic medicine. did your docs listen fully and respectfully to you? my experience has been that "when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". cut and drug.


Reminds me of a time I went to my MD's office because I thought I was coming down with the flu. I gave permission for an intern to treat me. He actually sat and asked tons of questions regarding how I felt and why did I think it was the flu. Somehow I shared the fact that everything smelled strange to me and I felt I had a strange odor. I also shared that my thought process was slowing down and I felt the urge to lick trees, rocks and other strange things. (I truly thought I was having a melt down.)

This intern realized at that moment - just from TALKING to me - that I was in renal failure. Of course he did the medical testing - sent me to the hospital where I spent 13 days - but if he just treated me for the flu - I'd be dead.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I tend to be open minded depending on severity. Same thing. FWIW I was given a powerful drug for restless legs that made me very very sleepy. Did some research on my own. Figured out Ca, Mg, Zn supplement did the trick without the side effects and MG is good for the heart as well. So.........

Epigenetics is fascinating tangent - good article - Epigenetics, DNA: How You Can Change Your Genes, Destiny - TIME

I honestly do not remember any kids with asthma growing up-I mainly remember the diseases we did get for which there was no vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox). I was in Baltimore MD as a youngster - lots of lead gasoline fumes, lots of pollution, I remember playing in runoff water from the streets, etc.......my younger adult child has all kinds of auto-immune issues...All I get is a little hay fever and a little itchy eyes around cats..same with her dd. She has decided she will adopt when the time comes as she dows not want to "pass them on"...I freaked out when I realized my grandaughters were immunized for Hep B at birth. Mom and Dad were immunized as teenagers per school requirements, why on earth... a BABY? Hep B? makes no sense to me.


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. I would say the environment could have been poisoned enough in the mid 1800s to cause autoimmune issues. This was the start of the Industrial Revolution and the Mississippi river was a main water way with towns sprouting up along it. They dumped chemicals that were used in all industries out the back door. While the chemicals may not have been as harsh as they are now, they were still poison. Take a look at any 3rd world nation that is industrializing right now and look at the poisons being dumped. Take a look at Mexico and China. Heavy metal poisoning can cause many things as well. Look at the Middle Ages and how many people died from lead poisoning.
> While these don't cause genetic issues such as RA, it does cause many problems including mutated genes that could lead to RA.


This is a stretch .... Although the Industrial Revolution was well underway in the U.S. by the mid-1800s, most of the factory complexes were located in the north-east. There was very little industry in the midwest. In terms of the Mississippi being polluted at all, especially enough to influence people in the area in 1850, I think this is reaching. What would the pollutants be? Many of the ships prior to 1850 were sail-based, the others were steam driven. If you're referring to wasted pollutants, I don't know what they'd be...

Coal would have been transported, but I have never heard of it polluting the Mississippi, at least not in 1850. Mass produced oil, gas, chemicals, would have been unheard of as these things came into wide use well after 1850.
You'd be hard-pressed to find any sound historical or scientic evidience for this.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@jocoyn, let me guess...klonopin?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

katieliz said:


> @jocoyn, let me guess...klonopin?


No, it was something for Parkinsons-apparently they are related in some way. Isn't clonopin for anxiety?


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh boy, would I love to rant! Our (human) medical professionals are not supposed to give any remedies that are not pharaceutical, or surgical. If there is a non-surgical option to something, even if they know about it, can't tell you. Well, I supposed they recommend diet and exercize, but they would say, for example, "eat garlic to lower your blood pressure". I went to a doctor and had high blood pressure. I went back every 2 weeks and every 2 weeks is was lower until it was finally normal. The doctor didn't even want to know what I was doing to lower it. (Garlic, BTW.)

I'm sure, to make this relevant, there must be a doggie equivalent.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Mine came from genetics. My mother had autoimmune issues, so did my great aunt, and so on and so forth back before we started poisoning our environment. Almost every female member of my family has had some sort of autoimmune problem.


Okay, I'm straying here, but why is it okay for humans to breed like this, but if we breed dogs with known genetic diseases "we" would be called irresponsible. 

No offense to you Shepherdmom, it's just you brought up a good example. Epilepsy is another good example. Nobody should have to suffer from that.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

katieliz said:


> anyone with autoimmune issues could be served by limiting exposure to toxins. nevada is very high on the list of most toxic states in the country.
> 
> yes, i am saying that in one form or another there has always been polution of the environment by toxins. only a matter of degree. i also think, and this is just a personal theory, that there is some form of "cellular memory" passed from generation to generation. i also think it will soon be clear that where genetics may really come into play is in the "protection against" arena, thru the p53 gene and it's relation to breakage or shortening of telomeres (omg not even sure if i spelled that right).
> 
> i am still curious as to whether your were diagnosed accurately and in a timely manner by allopathic medicine. did your docs listen fully and respectfully to you? my experience has been that "when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". cut and drug. do you know how much nutrition education is given in medical school. has any md you've ever seen asked you how much water you drink? seriously 80% of the population is dehydrated. hydration and nutrition are so incredibly important. the bedrock of our health. western medicine spends NO TIME learning about these things. well, maybe things are changing, i've been retired for a while now.


I presented my family doctor with the symptoms I was having at the time and he immediately sent me to the wonderful GI doctor who I am seeing now. We did barium studies, colonoscopies, biopsies, blood work, etc. Was even tested for Celiac disease, that came back negative thank goodness. They even have a nutritionalist on staff to help create a specific diet for me to follow. On that note, you ask if I drink enough water. Actually, I mostly live on gatorade, water isn't enough to sustain hydration. I loose to much electrolytes with vomiting, diahrhea. Since I cannot have the normal diet as most, I also take many supplements to help replace the things I cannot eat. I just want to add one more thing. I too have a family history of Crohns. My paternal grandmother had it, my uncle (fathers brother), cousin (also fathers side). My GI doc has told me that there is a genetic link, and more studies are continueing.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

.....And I just want to say that I reeeeaaallly miss eating fruit.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

FlyAway said:


> Okay, I'm straying here, but why is it okay for humans to breed like this, but if we breed dogs with known genetic diseases "we" would be called irresponsible.
> 
> No offense to you Shepherdmom, it's just you brought up a good example. Epilepsy is another good example. Nobody should have to suffer from that.


Funny you say this. When I became a member here and started learning about good breeders and weak nerved dogs, I started thinking about it in relation to humans also. Basically, I have a long history of depression, addiction and anxiety in my family and my husbands side has depression and bi polar disorder. Although, I already had two kids, I decided I could not have anymore because I don't want to keep passing these things down to anymore children. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

bunchoberrys said:


> Actually, *I mostly live on gatorade*, water isn't enough to sustain hydration. I loose to much electrolytes with vomiting, diahrhea. Since I cannot have the normal diet as most,


 
BVO that was petitioned to be removed from gatorade is known as a toxin that effects the GI tract...alon with high fructose corn syrup a GMO product that offers NO nutritional value....

Pure Coconut water is natures gatorade, does not contain the above and offers the elecrolytes needed in natural more bio available form, as well antibacterial (again - not in gatorade), another suseptability with gastro issues.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

gatorbytes, i'm thinkin' bunchoberries docs have not shared that info, i'm kinda thinkin' they likely don't know.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

klonopin, which is a benzodiazepine, is now being used for restless leg syndrome. terrible drug. most common use is anxiety and/or panic disorder tho. have a friend who was recently prescribed klonopin, effexor, and halcion (all at once), by a psychopharmacologist, for some time-limited, situational anxiety. he actually has a sign on the glass at his reception desk that says "we do not see patients on tuesday and thursday, we reserve these days to meet and consult with our drug reps". oncologists now have adjacent buildings to their clinics where they administer chemotherapy. it's criminal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GatorBytes said:


> BVO that was petitioned to be removed from gatorade is known as a toxin that effects the GI tract...alon with high fructose corn syrup a GMO product that offers NO nutritional value....
> 
> Pure Coconut water is natures gatorade, does not contain the above and offers the elecrolytes needed in natural more bio available form, as well antibacterial (again - not in gatorade), another suseptability with gastro issues.


Uhm, all the rest of this debate aside, I don't think I want to try pure coconut water, it just sounds really gruesome to me. 

Today for lunch I had roast beef, and cooked potatoes, celery, onions, and carrots with it, and then I had broccoli, cauliflower, corn, brussel sprouts, and yellow squash. 

Ok, I felt in the mood for veggies. I decided today that I do not like yellow squash. Babs got all the rest of the yellow squash. Babs likes the weirdest foods.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

katieliz said:


> klonopin, which is a benzodiazepine, is now being used for restless leg syndrome. terrible drug. most common use is anxiety and/or panic disorder tho. have a friend who was recently prescribed klonopin, effexor, and halcion (all at once), by a psychopharmacologist, for some time-limited, situational anxiety. he actually has a sign on the glass at his reception desk that says "we do not see patients on tuesday and thursday, we reserve these days to meet and consult with our drug reps". oncologists now have adjacent buildings to their clinics where they administer chemotherapy. it's criminal.


Holy cow. Well the mineral supplement helped me. Apparently phosphoric acid in sodas can mess up the mineral balances as well and I later quit diet coke entirely [and *that* solved the reflux issue]

Well I got put on all kinds of expensive blood pressure medicines until I went on the web, figured out I needed more potassium and less sodium and viola! Not ALL people are sodium sensitive but I am one of them.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

nope sue, i only use it in smoothies, but it adds no taste to those (and what i use is clear). man your lunch sounds great, though i haven't eaten meat since i was 17 and back on the farm, when "joey" showed up on the dinner table. i'd never connected a face to a slab of beef before. but i do feel very strongly to each his own for all personal decisions. and i also enjoy seeing that people can share opinions and debate here and the thread has not deteriorated into being unkind or disrespectful.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

selzer said:


> Uhm, all the rest of this debate aside, I don't think I want to try pure coconut water, it just sounds really gruesome to me.


It's quite bland, my dog loves it - not too much though, in the summer on especially hot days I give him a 1/4-1/2c after walk when he is flattened and panting...he likes "blue monkey" brand - coconut mango flavour


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@nancy, viola! 99% of us are SO mineral deficient. i had a reverse osmosis water filter system installed...took me a while to figure out that what they do is remove all the minerals from your well water. 

our current medical system is just beginning the process of morphing into something called functional medicine. cleveland clinic and u of wisconsin are on the forefront of the movement. but the old ways are not gonna go easy. too much $$$$$$$$$$. it's all about the $$$$$$$. cost containment will finally force the issue. interestingly enough, u of m docs are, few at a time, one here, one there, leaving the u to practice functional medicine in private practice. but not enough of 'em to make getting an appointment with one before august possible, lolol...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

katieliz said:


> anyone with autoimmune issues could be served by limiting exposure to toxins. nevada is very high on the list of most toxic states in the country.
> 
> yes, i am saying that in one form or another there has always been polution of the environment by toxins. only a matter of degree.
> 
> i am still curious as to whether your were diagnosed accurately and in a timely manner by allopathic medicine. did your docs listen fully and respectfully to you? my experience has been that "when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". cut and drug. do you know how much nutrition education is given in medical school. has any md you've ever seen asked you how much water you drink? seriously 80% of the population is dehydrated. hydration and nutrition are so incredibly important. .


I actually went into remission moving to Nevada. At least for the first 5 years or so. It is back, not surprising since it always comes back. *sigh* One thing you need to remember about diagnosing, is that when I first got this 30+ years ago there were not the diagnostic tests that are available today so no I wasn't diagnosed accurately. It took them years and years... also one of the signs of autoimmune is the fact that it goes into remission and then comes back. When I first got it, no they didn't have a clue. They were sure I was allergic to something. It was my fault, I wasn't following their diets accurately (even though I was) etc. and so forth. Then they decided it was chronic and just started throwing pred. at me. It made the hives stop and I didn't know what I was doing to my body so I took it for years. But medicine has come a long way and now there are other options. None of them work as well, but the side effects are less. As far as dehydration, I've lived in desert area's much of my life I've heard that same old dehydration speech from a million doctors. I've been tested, I'm not dehydrated. 

To the person who made the comment about genetics. I agree, had I known back when I had my kids, what I know today I would never had passed along these horrible autoimmune issues.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> BVO that was petitioned to be removed from gatorade is known as a toxin that effects the GI tract...alon with high fructose corn syrup a GMO product that offers NO nutritional value....
> 
> Pure Coconut water is natures gatorade, does not contain the above and offers the elecrolytes needed in natural more bio available form, as well antibacterial (again - not in gatorade), another suseptability with gastro issues.


Some reasons coconut might not be good for you:
from: Coconut, An Optimal Source Of Fat? | Paleo Diet Lifestyle

Some people are allergic to coconuts like they can be for other tree nuts;
Coconut meat contains levels of lectins, which can potentially irritate the gut lining;
Most coconut milk preparations contain guar gum as a thickening and homogenizing agent, but some people seem sensitive to it;
Some people are intolerant to the high levels of salicylates in coconut products;
The potent antibacterial and antifungal properties of coconut oil might not always be beneficial, especially when commensal (beneficial) bacteria is also being killed. People with gut flora imbalances might want to try limiting their coconut oil consumption if it makes them feel worse;


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Everyone has to make their own minds up about health care be it for humans or animals. 
Be careful what you search for on the internet, there is a research paper somewhere to back up any point of view you want to take. 

Arguments over to vaccinate or not to really hit home with me, most people will argue for or against and say look at my kid or dog they're doing great and I didnt' vaccinate. 
I dont' have all the answers and I'm not saying the vaccination or medical programs are all perfect. 
BUT
I have wrapped a dead baby up and handed that baby to it's parents, and not just once, Babies that could have been saved if their parents had vaccinated or followed medical advice that was given to them. 
It's all fine to argue a point when things are going right and you can say "See it works " 
But what if it doesn't "work".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ten Vaccine Myths | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Franksmom said:


> Everyone has to make their own minds up about health care be it for humans or animals.
> Be careful what you search for on the internet, there is a research paper somewhere to back up any point of view you want to take.
> 
> Arguments over to vaccinate or not to really hit home with me, most people will argue for or against and say look at my kid or dog they're doing great and I didnt' vaccinate.
> ...


It works both ways though. My good friend had two puppies that she vaccinated for lepto at the vet. She put them in a crate in the car and drove home, about 7 minutes. One pup was alive the other was dead when she got home. 

The I just wrapped up a dead baby argument works for people who do vaccinate as well. Vaccinating cannot guaranty you that the dog will not get sick and die. I guess you put it through the chart: 

If you vaccinate and your puppy survives to a ripe old age, Yay!
If you vaccinate and your puppy dies or has severe complications, Awww!
If you don't vaccinate and your puppy survives to a ripe old age, Yay!
If you don't vaccinate and your puppy dies or has severe complications from contracting an illness that he should have been vaccinated against, Uhg!

And then you look at the percentages that you can find. 

Most of the people who vaccinate have no _certified _complications, nor do they get those diseases. 

How many known cases of severe vaccine related complications are there opposed to how many dogs are vaccinated in the same time-frame. And how many dogs have complications that _may_ be attributed to vaccinating or over vaccinating? (Hard to get accurate results when vets would be involved in the tally, and a lot of vets seriously do not want to consider the possibility). 

What about not vaccinating ever? How many dogs have never been vaccinated and reach old age? And what about minimum vaccinations? 

How many dogs are lost or suffer problems from diseases that have vaccines that generally protect puppies. Is there a way to get the numbers. 

Parvo scares the bejesus out of me. I vaccinate my dogs as puppies, and then was vaccinating every 3 years. I am considering stretching that to 4 years. And I take other precautions as well. There are no shortcuts. People have to look at their options and find data, and make the best decision for their situation.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Ten Vaccine Myths | Dogs Naturally Magazine


:rofl: Proving Franksmom's point.

"Be careful what you search for on the internet, there is a research paper somewhere to back up any point of view you want to take."


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think you just have to be smart about it and vaccinate fo things that there is really a danger of.

I personally think it's pretty insane not to vaccinate a puppy for parvo. But at the same time I'm a healthy adult with little public contact who shuns the yearly flu shot (but talk to me next year when I have a baby in daycare).


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

selzer said:


> It works both ways though. My good friend had two puppies that she vaccinated for lepto at the vet. She put them in a crate in the car and drove home, about 7 minutes. One pup was alive the other was dead when she got home.
> 
> The I just wrapped up a dead baby argument works for people who do vaccinate as well. Vaccinating cannot guaranty you that the dog will not get sick and die. I guess you put it through the chart:
> 
> ...


True it does work both ways. That's why I say do research but be careful how you research something. 
Everyone does have to make up their own mind on how they will vaccinate or medically treat. Question what the vet wants to do and get a second opinion if needed, be informed. 

Complications from vaccines are out there, I would never ever say something could not happen from getting a vaccine. 
Some of the complications blamed on vaccines are a point of view, you can take the same symptom and some will say "It is a complication" and some will say "It is not a complication" Depends on who you ask and their point of view. 
I wish there could be 1 study that would set the whole thing to rest, but I don't think there ever will be. Too many different points of view already leaning one way or the other going into the studies to get a true result. 


My point of view till I'm proven otherwise, in my mind, will be to vaccinate, because to me I'm doing all I can to keep my baby or puppy healthy, because if they did catch a disease I could have prevented with a vaccine ( I know vaccines are not 100% ) I could not forgive myself for that. 

I know that can flip the other way people will say "But what if the vaccine caused a deadly reaction" To me the chances of catching a disease are much more then having that reaction


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

bga said:


> This is a stretch .... Although the Industrial Revolution was well underway in the U.S. by the mid-1800s, most of the factory complexes were located in the north-east. There was very little industry in the midwest.


So there was no industry in the midwest in the mid to late 1800s in Chicago? St. Louis? Cincinnati? 




bga said:


> You'd be hard-pressed to find any sound historical or scientic evidience for this.


Not really


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I live where Gary, IN and Chicago pollution falls out....40 miles inland from the Lake MI shoreline. I also live within the same miles of two nuclear power plants, one of which is constantly getting shut down for safety issues. 
I'm not going to fret over not vaccinating my dogs when there are so many other things to occupy my brain. 
If I wanted to live safely, it surely wouldn't be in this neck of the woods.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

*Confirmation bias*

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.
_:_ http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/mind_brain/

Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study.
Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis.
As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence.


From Science Daily.


There is no vaccine for it either.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

diet may save you if you're in a car accident. if the person in the
accident is a fairly round one the Medics or Fire Dept. may not
be able to get the person out of the car. :crazy:



katieliz said:


> @gatorbytes, you betcha...
> 
> >>>> nutrition is everything (which, of course, is not to say that if you're in a car accident your diet will save you,<<<<
> 
> ...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

bga's statements don't appear correct to me. can anybody speak to when the industrial revolution began (no time to google, lolol).


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

ohmygosh doggydad, for (i believe) the second time ever...we agree!!!


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> So there was no industry in the midwest in the mid to late 1800s in Chicago? St. Louis? Cincinnati?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
None of these cities had the heavy industry that the north east did, but in any case, the mid to late 1800s would not have polluted the Mississippi by 1850. If it's so easy to find evidence, by all means, post a link!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> *Confirmation bias*
> 
> In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.
> _:_
> ...


*Conformation Bias*


Conformation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward conformation of the different lines or types in a breed.
Conformation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that conforms to their preferences, (ie. looking for show line dogs that have bad hips) and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconform to their preference.
As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in choosing a dog.

Oops sorry, off topic. 

Yes we will tend to look for evidence that supports what the already believe. I think that is part of human nature. But then you have someone who has always vaccinated for everything as her vet prescribed and a friend tells her that her own pup died from the vaccine. 

Then that individual starts looking around to see if there is something more to that than some possibly funky flaw in the dog that cause it to not survive the vaccine. 

So I think it is possible to have an open mind about something and have it clearly shaken by your own experience or someone else's experience, and then you go looking to see how common this actually is, and whether you should adjust what you do because of it. 

I mean, if it was your puppy that died from a lepto vaccine, and the vet said, yeah that happens sometimes, but you still should vaccinate for lepto, well, how many puppies should you lose to a lepto vaccine in an attempt to possibly avoid a lepto illness? There are a lot of vaccines our there, coronavirus, kennel caugh, not all of them are for fatal diseases, and might cause more harm than they avoid.


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

katieliz said:


> bga's statements don't appear correct to me. can anybody speak to when the industrial revolution began (no time to google, lolol).


 
Which statements specifically? The Industrial Revolution began in England in the late 1700s. It started in various other places, like continental Europe and the U.S. a few decades later. 1810-1830 in the U.S., but again, the north-east was where most of the heavy manufacturing was located.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> BVO that was petitioned to be removed from gatorade is known as a toxin that effects the GI tract...alon with high fructose corn syrup a GMO product that offers NO nutritional value....
> 
> Pure Coconut water is natures gatorade, does not contain the above and offers the elecrolytes needed in natural more bio available form, as well antibacterial (again - not in gatorade), another suseptability with gastro issues.


Actually, they originally had me on MCT oil (more commonly known as coconut oil), Mct oil promotes intestinal health by ridding the body of troublesome microorganisms that cause chronic inflammation such as
Crohns. Unfortunately, we did not see great results and discontinued. They did suggest coconut water as well, but changed that part of the supplements after the lack of success with the coconut oil. So, its not like my doc is not trying something different, he truly is. I guess I'm lucky that he's not as drughappy as other docs. And as to the gatorade....it works. And I really don't have much to choose from, I stick with what my body accepts.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the Erie Canal, and the railroads had places like Cleveland going by the mid 1800s. I guess maybe I should look that up though. I do know that in the 1950s pollution was nasty in Cleveland, and prior to that people really weren't holding companies accountable. So, I would expect in 1850 there might have been more pollution in places like Cleveland than there is in 2000. 

I mean just before the civil war, the North had trains and manufacturing, and the south was pretty much crippled as it had farming. I guess I should google.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

bga said:


> None of these cities had the heavy industry that the north east did, but in any case, the mid to late 1800s would not have polluted the Mississippi by 1850. If it's so easy to find evidence, by all means, post a link!


I did not say they had the heavy industry the northeast did. I said they had industry, thus pollution. Nor did I state they had the chemicals that we do now. IN fact, I stated the obvious and mentioned heavy metal poisoning. I believe I mentioned the middle ages and lead poisoning also.

You seem to be an expert of some sort so by all means, do a google search and come up with the same links from universities that I did and do your own research. I'm going to go work now.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think the Erie Canal, and the railroads had places like Cleveland going by the mid 1800s. I guess maybe I should look that up though. I do know that in the 1950s pollution was nasty in Cleveland, and prior to that people really weren't holding companies accountable. So, I would expect in 1850 there might have been more pollution in places like Cleveland than there is in 2000.
> 
> I mean just before the civil war, the North had trains and manufacturing, and the south was pretty much crippled as it had farming. I guess I should google.



Don't Selzer. Too much time on the computer or cell phones or TV or Microwaves can be very toxic.


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I did not say they had the heavy industry the northeast did. I said they had industry, thus pollution. Nor did I state they had the chemicals that we do now. IN fact, I stated the obvious and mentioned heavy metal poisoning. I believe I mentioned the middle ages and lead poisoning also.
> 
> You seem to be an expert of some sort so by all means, do a google search and come up with the same links from universities that I did and do your own research. I'm going to go work now.


An expert no, but I did major in history, so I tend to challenge broad assertions made without any proof. You made the statement. the onus is on you to give the evidence... seems odd that you haven't considering the links are apparently a copy and paste away. Have fun at work!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I did not say they had the heavy industry the northeast did. I said they had industry, thus pollution. Nor did I state they had the chemicals that we do now. IN fact, I stated the obvious and mentioned heavy metal poisoning. I believe I mentioned the middle ages and lead poisoning also.
> 
> You seem to be an expert of some sort so by all means, do a google search and come up with the same links from universities that I did and do your own research. I'm going to go work now.


****I stated the "opposite"...(not obvious)


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@jack'sdad, isn't that the truth. we are living in some of the most toxic times ever, and all of it invisible and unproven. air soup, and nowhere to hide. our cells will have to mutate. evolution.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> So there was no industry in the midwest in the mid to late 1800s in Chicago? St. Louis? Cincinnati?


This is from Wikipedia so take it for what its worth... " the Second Industrial Revolution in the transition years between 1840 and 1870, when technological and economic progress gained momentum with the increasing adoption of steam-powered boats, ships and railways, the large scale manufacture of machine tools and the increasing use of steam powered factories" 

However I seriously doubt that toxins from the industrial revolution had hit a little farming town in the middle of nowhere Missouri enough to give someone RA. My great-aunt was not the first person in my family to get RA she was just one I can cite because I did meet her one time before she passed. She was very very old and I was very very little.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I dont get your argument ts. If you believe the vaccinations protect your dog then why are you concerned about unvaccinated dogs? These diseases will never be eliminated like small pox was.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

jack's dad said:


> *confirmation bias*
> 
> in psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.
> _:_
> ...





katieliz said:


> bga's statements don't appear correct to me.



bingo!!!!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> But at the same time I'm a healthy adult with little public contact who shuns the yearly flu shot (but talk to me next year when I have a baby in daycare).


Haha......yes.....same here. We have started kinder this year and already have had a couple of lurgies which is unusual for us.....I think we will be getting a few more!!!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Don't Selzer. Too much time on the computer or cell phones or TV or Microwaves can be very toxic.


:spittingcoffee: I'll save her the trouble. The Erie Canal was completed in 1825. Missouri became a state in 1821. In the mid 1800's the part of Missouri where my family is from, St. Joseph, became a gateway for wagon trains west. 

It always amazes me how these threads morph. What started out as a thread on vaccinating dogs, turned into a thread on history from the mid 1800's. :crazy:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> :spittingcoffee: I'll save her the trouble. The Erie Canal was completed in 1825. Missouri became a state in 1821. In the mid 1800's the part of Missouri where my family is from, St. Joseph, became a gateway for wagon trains west.
> 
> It always amazes me how these threads morph. What started out as a thread on vaccinating dogs, turned into a thread on history from the mid 1800's. :crazy:


 Now we got it. Horse poop mixed with dust causes RA.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Perhaps "bull ...." would be a better example...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

life is a learning process, as well as an evolutionary one. these threads are an evolution of learning...reader discression is advised, lol...


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

katieliz;3296569...reader discression is advised said:


> as is keeping a sense of humour...


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

sparra said:


> bingo!!!!


Originally Posted by *jack's dad*  
_*confirmation bias*_

_in psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors._
_: _

_confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study._
_Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis._
_As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence._


_From science daily._


_There is no vaccine for it either._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *katieliz*  
_bga's statements don't appear correct to me._


bingo!!!!


Right... I'm the only one on here vulnerable to confirmation bias. I am still unsure what statements Katieliz was referring too, but the ones I made about the industrial revolution were correct.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

omg where are the spelling police...lol...i detest making spelling errors, lol. bga, i WILL get back to you on what i was referring to, but i am always multi-tasking and sometimes don't have time to go back and see what i meant about anything, lolol...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Now we got it. Horse poop mixed with dust causes RA.


Now that I could buy off on if you have some supporting documentation. Maybe a wiki link? 

I'm still vaccinating my dogs tho.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Now that I could buy off on if you have some supporting documentation. Maybe a wiki link?
> 
> I'm still vaccinating my dogs tho.


Would you settle for testimonials?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

bga said:


> Originally Posted by *jack's dad*
> _*confirmation bias*_
> 
> _in psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors._
> ...


No,no,no,no.......I was pointing out that immediately after Jack's Dad post about confirmation bias someone gave an example......your statements don't appear correct to her, perhaps not because they are not correct, but perhaps because they don't fit her ideas/beliefs......this thread is way too exhausting......I'm off to smell the toxic roses......


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

sparra said:


> No,no,no,no.......I was pointing out that immediately after Jack's Dad post about confirmation bias someone gave an example......your statements don't appear correct to her, perhaps not because they are not correct, but perhaps because they don't fit her ideas/beliefs......this thread is way too exhausting......I'm off to smell the toxic roses......


Oh ok.... I apologize ... I misunderstood. You're right the thread is getting exhausting, and I'm clearly tired enough to go to bed...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Would you settle for testimonials?


:rofl:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

sorry i missed what happened between about the third and last post - anyone care to re-cap for me, skimmed something about the civil war and toxic chemical plants in the 1800's mid-west???


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

justa bunch of differing thoughts and opinions. kinda took on a life of its' own, lolol...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

did the cuckoo birds sing?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

a chorus!

nighty-night. finally get to sleep. long day.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

x11 said:


> did the cuckoo birds sing?


 
lol...whats a cuckoo bird???

oh, and welcome back to your thread


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

katieliz said:


> oftentimes the "cure" is worse than the original disease and who have forgotten that they took an oath to FIRST DO NO HARM. it is DISGRACEFUL.
> 
> horrified at things like *chemotherapy* and cholesterol lowering drugs.


Statements like this, honestly and bluntly, infuriate me. And I say that because I work very hard, at two clinics and then doing a large amount of shelter medicine volunteering. I am a certified technician, I went through all the schooling, did my internship at a very respected emergency hospital. Work now in a very well respected emergency and referral clinic. With, IMO, some of the best ER doctors you could ask for. Board certified criticalists, etc. I am glad to know that all I'm doing is killing patients left and right with our "treatment" protocols.

People have a FEW bad experiences and label the entire field. Even if you had 3-4 sh*t experiences with doctors, maybe you just got dealt 3-4 sh*t life cards. It amazes me that ONE medical experience combined with google can justify people being "experts" over those that have actually gone to school and work daily in the field. I am half way through my third shift of the week, and I have seen/hospitalized 26 critical/emergency patients in that time. But hey, what do I know? What experiences have I had?

We'll look down on chemotherapy in horror? Please tell that to every cancer patient that has gone through remission because of their chemotherapy! We had 2 dogs in today alone for chemotherapy treatment with our board certified oncologist. But you're right, that lymphoma probably would of gone into remission on it's own, right?

Now, don't get me wrong. We DO over vaccinate, I agree. We DO push some things, like early spay neuter, premature dentals, etc... way too easily, I agree. I am CONSTANTLY pulling up research papers and arguing with my vets. The Internal Medicine doctor here has banned raw food from even entering the clinic, so I sneak Berlin's food in a brown paper bag. But for the most part, your vet and their technical staff are there to HELP your animal. And hopefully refer to specialty doctors when they feel the case is beyond their scope. If I had a dog that had a bad reaction to a vaccine, I too would be very cautious. It's human nature. But some of the advice I see on here makes me sick, it is just so DANGEROUS. People saying don't vaccinate for this or that or whatever... when the animal is potentially at high risk? You could be killing someone's pet. We've lost dogs to lepto, distemper, recently we had a RABIES cat. Not only could these diseases of been prevented, but two of those have now potentially risked NUMEROUS people that came in contact with those pets.

To not only not vaccinate your puppies against parvo, but then BRAG that two of your dogs have survived parvo?? You know what you're doing? You're putting parvo into the environment on your clothing, and you are setting up other dogs to become infected and DIE. You know why we don't have the rabies cases in America at the rates that foreign countries do? Because we VACCINATE our domesticated pets against it.






shepherdmom said:


> Things we thought we have gotten rid of are now making comebacks because some people are not vaccinating and schools are allowing it now. Whooping Cough is becoming a huge problem in this area. My kid had asthma when she was little. When you are sitting up in the middle of the night with a kid who can't breath you might feel differently.


In anti-vax defense, many things are coming back because we DID over vaccinate. Penicillin was grossly overused and now many strains of bacteria are penicillin resistant. There are now new stains of TB that are even deadlier, and resistant to the vaccines because we over vaccinated and followed improper vaccine protocols.




FlyAway said:


> Okay, I'm straying here, but why is it okay for humans to breed like this, but if we breed dogs with known genetic diseases "we" would be called irresponsible.


Sometimes I feel like a horrible human being, every time I see commercials for places like children's hospital, with the poor little boy or girl with cancer, and it says something like "Thanks to your support we can provide funding to finding treatments for little Susie so she can grow up and have a family of her own" I just think 'oh great, so little Susie can make a whole new generation of little cancer kids'



Franksmom said:


> I have wrapped a dead baby up and handed that baby to it's parents, and not just once, Babies that could have been saved if their parents had vaccinated or followed medical advice that was given to them.
> It's all fine to argue a point when things are going right and you can say "See it works "
> But what if it doesn't "work".


Sadly it's a viscious cycle. I can take a picture of every puppy we lose to parvo. On the flip side, can you look at the 7 year old renal failure patient and not say MAYBE it was this or MAYBE it was this that caused this.

I guess all I'm trying to say is yes, be smart and do your research. Don't take everything at face value. But TRUST your vet and technicians. They aren't out to steal your money and kill your pet. If you don't trust your vet or even their diagnosis, get a second opinion! As far as vaccines, look at your exposure. If you have a family of raccoons living in your back yard, distemper and lepto vaccines might be a good idea.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anubis_Star said:


> I guess all I'm trying to say is yes, be smart and do your research. Don't take everything at face value. But TRUST your vet and technicians. They aren't out to steal your money and kill your pet. If you don't trust your vet or even their diagnosis, get a second opinion! As far as vaccines, look at your exposure. If you have a family of raccoons living in your back yard, distemper and lepto vaccines might be a good idea.


All in all, I think your post is very good and well thought out. But - *Trust?* - not completely because in my 57 years, I have seen "good" doctors/vets make enough serious mistakes in hastily thought out judgement to challenge and second guess them and second opinions are not so easy to get on everyday things and quite expensive to chase down. The average doctor thinks about my situation for 5-10 minutes while I may spend days...always trying to find peer reviewed journal articles against which to assess. I am truly impressed with veterinary specialists, but no so much with many clinicians in general practice. 

I Honestly believe that, for some diseases, such as rabies the public health need overrides the individual rights but for others, I am glad to live in a country where I can excercise a certain amount of choice. Would not personally think about avoiding distemper and parvo vaccines (but not every 3 years!)

There are 4 vets at the non-holisitic clinic I have gone to for several years. The holistic one helped me in many things but I do have some concerns there. 

I raised my concerns (in an email to the regular clinic-after a very dismissive and fear mongering experience -where I also got the "tsk tsk head shake" about wanting to space out vaccines) about the efficacy of the lepto vaccine as well as concerns Pfizer product could do more harm than good vs the non adjuvantated Merial product which is the only one demonstrated to prevent colonization and shedding (per transcript of veterinary presentation at NC State, as well as published literature) and realizing that any lepto vaccine will not prevent bratislava, the most significant servovar now...but...I digress...I have dismissed the arguments against the vaccine by Dogs Naturally et al. and am trying to look objectively at the science. FWIW though, when I asked about "all these cases of lepto" I come to find out it is typically a diagnosis based on symptoms, not verified by the available blood + urine tests ....

One vet got back to me so we can talk about this (have to make appt). Will let you know if I wind up with an intelligent discussion on this supported by data that I don't have at ready access or whether I get a repeat of the scare technique with misinformation given by the first vet-or if they can demonstrate that I was given accurate information. [And, FWIW despite the dire warnings of the primary vet at that clinic, Beau is keeping his testicles]...Is that too much to ask? Vaccines are given to all their client dogs..... I don't expect them to be up on specialty fields but this is part of their core business!

Sometimes I think some preventive measures are aimed at being the lesser evil for most dog owners who are not daily assessing their dogs, not feeding them to support a strong immune system, and not reacting appropriately at early signs of problems.....I can't even BUY a HW preventive at that clinic that does not have flea meds in it! I check the dog every day for fleas and he is not picking them up and not scratching. Why would I use them?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who cringed at the chemotherapy comment. It's a pretty toxic drug, yeah, but how exactly are we supposed to treat cancer--herbs and chanting?? Yikes.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> All in all, I think your post is very good and well thought out. But - *Trust?* - not completely


I agree with everything you say. I guess our definition of trust just defers slightly 

In my mind, you can TRUST someone but still question some calls. I TRUST the doctors I work with, I trust that they have my pet's best interest at heart. But they have made certain suggestions that I haven't necessarily agreed with, and we've sat down and talked it out. I personally think it's an unhealthy relationship if you walk into your vet's office expecting them to make poor judgment calls and expecting to have to scrutinize every little treatment suggestion. That's what my opinion of what trust in your vet means.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

we will be treating cancer with stem cell transplants, organ cloning, nanotechnology, and other modalities that will make our current protocols appear barbaric, but no "herbs and chanting", lol. lots of new research being done. lots of new and better stuff comin' down the pike. only time will tell which "opinions" are more accurate. we've been working on curing cancer for a long, long, long time now. 

and trust your doc and your techs as partners in your care, but always educate yourself. and be very wary of big pharma.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, good points. I had one there I trusted but she got swooped up by Hills.....Now the search is back on. I honestly don't challenge the vet that much but that fact my dog is in woods and swamps regularly places different challenges on him than most pets. Preventivs are used for attempting to manage the tip of the iceberg.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

something like 160 billion has been spent on "research", this does not include pharma sales, "breast, colon, bone, ovarian, hodgkins, etc.,cancer awareness charity drives" doctors bills and so on....

This is the biz end of cancer - a cure will never be found, treatments yes, cure no....the cure is in prevention of turning on cancer cells - and turning on killer T-cells - immune support through nutrition and herbs incl. culinary...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> This is the biz end of cancer - a cure will never be found, treatments yes, cure no....the cure is in prevention of turning on cancer cells - and turning on killer T-cells - immune support through nutrition and herbs incl. culinary...


I couldn't agree more.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@gatorbytes...totally agree with the first part of your post, but if the patient has a defective or damaged p53 gene, and/or shortened telomeres (sp? still gotta look that one up, lol), no amount of nutritional intervention can mitigate the onset of disease. that will need genetic manipulation. unfortunately, there's so much money to be made in maintaining the status quo that progress slow. research already supports the theory (or a variation thereof), that we all have multiplying, cancerous cells throughout our life, throughout our body...it's the control and/or destruction of those cells that makes the difference, which is decided by the hand we're dealt genetically. at the moment, stem cell transplant is the best tool in the box. but better are coming. i stand by my opinion that we will, indeed, someday wonder what ever were we thinking...injecting poison into the bloodstream and trying to strike a balance relative to killing the cancerous cells but not the patient. it's also quite interesting...if you were to take a survey of chemotherapy receipients at any major medical center...you might be surprised at how few docs are amongst those patients. nutrition and hydration do make a huge difference tho.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This isn't going to go over well here, but after watching my mom go through Chemo, I would put my dog down first. If my dog is diagnosed with cancer, it is not operable, and she seems to be in pain, I will make the appointment and put the dog down. A dog is a dog, not a person. I will encourage my mother to go through chemo again, if it ever becomes necessary. 

But I know people who have chosen not to go through chemo and have instead died. That was their choice. Humans have that choice. And for humans, we cannot put in their veins a liquid that will ensure that death will be pretty quick. 

A part of my deal with my dogs is that I provide for them food and shelter, companionship, veterinary care, and an easy way out if at all possible. If my dog was burned over 70% of its body, maybe less, I would put the dog down, even if the dog might fully recover. Months of suffering is something I just don't think I should make a pet endure. I feel the same way about chemo.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lots of personal feelings on the subject, everyone's entitled to their own opinions and those opinions should be respected. respecting is not agreeing. in a 30-odd year career at a major medical center, i learned that death is not the enemy. there are those who will disagree and that is their right. but it's such a personal subject, like politics and religion, that perhaps in the interest of the thread remaining civil, we should put the subject to rest and go back to the vaccination debate. or just call it a day on the thread itself. in closing my posts on the subject, i would only urge everyone to learn all you possibly can about your own body, about the reality of the current medical system, and to read and learn the side effects and contraindications of every single medicine they're ever prescribed. trust is good but knowledge is better.

and, btw, my deal with my dogs is exactly the same as your's. nobody will ever be accusing me of waiting too long. they have given me so much, i never make them wait when it's time.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

selzer said:


> This isn't going to go over well here, but after watching my mom go through Chemo, I would put my dog down first. If my dog is diagnosed with cancer, it is not operable, and she seems to be in pain, I will make the appointment and put the dog down. A dog is a dog, not a person. I will encourage my mother to go through chemo again, if it ever becomes necessary.
> 
> But I know people who have chosen not to go through chemo and have instead died. That was their choice. Humans have that choice. And for humans, we cannot put in their veins a liquid that will ensure that death will be pretty quick.
> 
> A part of my deal with my dogs is that I provide for them food and shelter, companionship, veterinary care, and an easy way out if at all possible. If my dog was burned over 70% of its body, maybe less, I would put the dog down, even if the dog might fully recover. Months of suffering is something I just don't think I should make a pet endure. I feel the same way about chemo.


Just want to point out that the amount of chemo given to dogs is in an entirely different proportion than that given to people. Nice essay about it: Chemo for pets: The price vs. the physical welfare conundrum | petMD Some dogs can go into remission - cancer is really too general a word - specific type matters greatly, then staging. The Magic Bullet Fund that helps people pay for cancer treatments for their pets won't even help pay for treatment for certain types of cancer. http://www.themagicbulletfund.org/Apply.shtml

x11/OP: Science-Based Medicine The final nail in the coffin for the antivaccine rallying cry “Too many too soon”?


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

katieliz said:


> trust is good but knowledge is better.


Absolutely. BUT, we also have to make sure our knowledge is gained from good sources. 

Look, I get frustrated when a doctor or vet is dismissive of my concerns. And I am a biomedical researcher! I am just knowledgeable enough about disease to be a hypochondriac . If I have a question about their treatment protocol, I ask, politely. I cite references, and I LISTEN when the doctor tells me her reasoning. Most of the time it's based on science, on previous experience with patients, and yeah, a little gut intuition on her part. Doctors do train, and they do have to continue their education. Honestly, most of them aren't "blindly following the pharm recs" either. 

IMHO, if we really want to change the patient/doctor relationship in this country, we need to stop fighting the proposed health care changes. The system is broken as is. There is no financial reward for carefully working with patients and for preventing disease. 

Also, lets please stop attacking and de-funding basic science research. Wonder why Big Pharma is so powerful? We're sitting back and letting THEM fund the research. But hey, it's OK - as long as it makes money, right?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My friend has been breeding and showing GSDs for over 50 years. She has also worked in a vet clinic, not as a vet. She has told vet's a thing or two and has been acknowledged by the vet as having been right about them. 

Vets in general have a lot of experience with dogs. My friend has a lot of experience with GSDs. There is a difference in that the vet is looking at the dog population as a whole and she is drawing upon experience with the breed. We are talking about a lot of dogs. She has her own dogs over decades, dogs she has produced, and many, many people that she is connected to through her contacts in the GSD world. 

If it is something ordinary, I go to the vet and get what I need. If it is out of the ordinary, I call her. I may not take her advice 100% every time, but she has been right too many times to ignore. Now I have people calling me for advice with dogs. I could take the easy way out, and say, take her to the ER, go with the vet. Already though I have countered an ER vet's advice and was right. I got that dog to another, better clinic that was able to properly diagnose her and leave her reproductive organs intact. 

There are some things that vets push, whether what they learned in vet school at the time, or just personal bias with respect to what they have encountered in general with the dog-population. They are unlikely to change these core beliefs when they have spayed or neutered so many dogs so young, and have followed aggressive vaccine protocols with their clients. To allow the suggestion that these things may not be good for dogs in general would be hard to take. What vet wants to believe that his clientel's average lifespan is 2-4 years younger at death because of something they pushed? 

And these are the vets that are teaching tomorrow's vets too. They will be violently opposed to alternative thinking. 

The people who think we are only thinking that vets want to do this stuff to line their pockets are actually rather insulting. If money was their main object, most vets would be in engineering or other more lucrative fields. Your average vet really doesn't make all that much money. But that doesn't mean there aren't other things, maybe even more important than money that causes them to over-look or avoid possibilities. Humans are good at blocking things that have potential to show how much damage they may have caused. 

I don't believe that vets are ignoring their oath to do no harm, in order to improve their profit margins, and pay over-head. 

I do believe they can be closed-minded on some things because the alternative can be hard to handle. 

I trust that the people that I have looking at my dogs are good people. I do not trust that they know what is best for them or what is wrong with them. They generally look at the symptoms and start a treatment plan with regards to what has worked with similar symptoms with a high percentage of dogs, and then if that doesn't work, they move on to diagnostic testing. This keeps costs -- owner-costs down. I work with them to decide what to do for each dog. The dogs are my responsibility. The choices are mine. And it is up to me to either accept whatever a vet suggests, or to go through a process of choosing another course of action, beginning with getting as much information from the best sources I can.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who cringed at the chemotherapy comment. It's a pretty toxic drug, yeah, but how exactly are we supposed to treat cancer--herbs and chanting?? Yikes.


Oh, no, we use homeopathic tonics for that. Magic water potions based on a system of "rules," each one more embarrassingly ridiculous than the last, all of which violate the most basic rules of physics and mathematics.



Not to knock all alternative medicine, mind you, I'm sure there are some methods out there that actually work, or actually do something to the body, and if not proven to work, at least have a chance of working based on the fact that they are _doing something_. But the only ones with any proven efficacy that I'm aware of are what we use today in mainstream treatment.

I always cringe at statements like that, too. Our modern understanding of science and medicine is why we don't have an infant mortality rate of 20%, and why we don't risk dying from infection every time we get a cut. Regressing back to such an ignorant time, using methods of magical healing supposedly based on theories of disease transmission that have been disproven for a hundred years or more (miasma), just because of a bad experience, or because side effects, or because it's the hip thing to do...

It's scary.

EDIT: Actually, though, a vast, vast majority of our modern medicines are sourced from herbs/plants, or a synthetic based on a plant. I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of chemotherapy drugs, but most of what we use today either came from a plant or was synthetically developed based on a plant, or to mimic the specific chemical in a plant.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

check the stats please on our infant mortality rate. 

and now we are not dying from infection because we get a cut, we are dying of infection because we've been in the hospital, and because we've been given, have ingested, and/or absorbed so many antibiotics that we can't keep up with what the bugs have morphed into. familiarizing onself with the specifics and origins of chemotherapy drugs will create an understanding that they are not derived from plants. there is a really good reason why those who administer them suit up.

and not sure who on the thread was talking 'bout magical healing...but 'twas not i.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

@sunsets...not a googler here. got to be very careful where knowledge comes from these days.


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## Mr. Aero (Nov 12, 2012)

Two words "Herd Immunity"


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

katieliz said:


> check the stats please on our infant mortality rate.


I don't know what it was, nor do I care - that wasn't the point. The point is, it used to be exponentially higher - which is why there is a common misconception that people used to only live to the ripe old age of 40. _Average_ lifespan was lower in the past due to extremely high infant mortality - if you lived past early childhood you stood a good chance of living to see your 70th birthday.

Out of curiosity, however, I did look it up. In 1900 in the United States, infant mortality was around 10%. In the 19th century (the 1800's), some European countries had rates as high as 25%. Diseases most kids today have never even heard of killed many children before their first birthday. Pertussis, diphtheria, etc. Measles is another one, but most kids have heard of it due to several modern outbreaks in areas where vaccination has ceased. I cannot even imagine bringing a child into this world and being unable to do anything but _pray_ that they reach their first birthday. Now we take that for granted - it is a major and unexpected tragedy if a baby dies so young. My grandmother had thirteen siblings. Only eight of them survived to adulthood.



> and now we are not dying from infection because we get a cut, we are dying of infection because we've been in the hospital, and because we've been given, have ingested, and/or absorbed so many antibiotics that we can't keep up with what the bugs have morphed into.


Which largely is a consequence of misuse of antibiotics, both in how they are prescribed, and in humans who think they can simply stop a course because they feel better in a few days, and they don't want to "keep taking that poison." Or just alter it willy-nilly. I had a friend who decided to take half-doses twice as long to "be sure she got everything." Both methods, by the way, are an excellent way to teach bacteria resistance.



> familiarizing onself with the specifics and origins of chemotherapy drugs will create an understanding that they are not derived from plants. there is a really good reason why those who administer them suit up.


I was quite clearly talking about pharmaceutical drugs in general, not chemotherapy drugs in particular.

On top of that, multiple types of chemotherapy drugs are derived from plants, so I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about. There is one in particular that I'm aware of that is a synthetic derivation of a chemical found in the periwinkle plant.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey you! Hope you and the pup are well! 


On topic, I ran into an herbalist and while I don't have a problem with it as a supportive therapy (assuming their have been unbiased clinical trials) she was overboard with the 'all natural' stuff. 

In Germany they actually do indepth clinical trials and on herbal remedies with a proven results Dr.s will recommend or prescribe them.

Won't see that happening in the U.S. tho....can't patent and charge a 500% margin on herbal products and they may actually have to have **gasp** competition. 



Draugr said:


> Oh, no, we use homeopathic tonics for that. Magic water potions based on a system of "rules," each one more embarrassingly ridiculous than the last, all of which violate the most basic rules of physics and mathematics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Won't see that happening in the U.S. tho....can't patent and charge a 500% margin on herbal products and they may actually have to have **gasp** competition.


It looks like they might also be making some money, too - not as much


> At $33.9 billion, CAM accounts for approximately 1.5 percent of total health care expenditures and 11.2 percent of total out-of-pocket expenditures on health care in the United States.


 but someone is making money, I would guess: 


> The $14.8 billion spent on nonvitamin, nonmineral, naturalproducts is equivalent to approximately one-third of total out-of-pocket spending on prescription drugs ($47.6 billion), and the $11.9 billion spent on CAM practitioner visits is equivalent to approximately one-quarter of total out-of-pocket spending on physician visits ($49.6 billion).


PLUS 3.1 billion (in one year) dollars on homeopathic medicine. 

The Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States: Cost Data | NCCAM










It is poorly regulated here as well: Science-Based Medicine Homeopathic regulation diluted until no substance left

When my one dog was diagnosed with GI lymphoma, I contacted a person who makes "individualized" herbal/Chinese medicine combos for dogs. I got back a list of things to buy - my dog passed very quickly, and I never ordered, but I was curious because someone had sent me the list that this person had sent for their dog - different breed, sex, disease - same list. So I asked a couple of others, same list, different breeds, diseases, etc. I don't think that love of money is an evil that is exclusive to anyone kind of person or anything else.

I will say I have gone to Doctors of Osteopath, have used acupuncture on my pets, chiropractic on me, Reiki (which is the big woo-woo) on my pets and me, and have used a communicator. 

However, I think that people like Suzanne Somers http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...dangerous-misinformation-about-cancer-part-1/ and total anti-vac, total anti-med people are as dangerous as the doctors and vets with no intellectual curiosity - and that following the money is not just something you should do with traditional medicine.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> However, I think that people like Suzanne Somers Science-Based Medicine Suzanne Somers’ Knockout: Dangerous misinformation about cancer (part 1) and total anti-vac, total anti-med people are as dangerous as the doctors and vets with no intellectual curiosity - and that following the money is not just something you should do with traditional medicine.


Yes.

But the FDA has caved to corporate pressure in the past few decades and streamlined the new drug approval process. The sample sizes tested sometimes defy rational statistics [from the point of being both a CQE and from working with some corporate statisticians who left pharma industry in disgust]

Not sure how CVM (center for veterinary medicine) is impacted but it is really scary seeing new drugs quickly approved then withdrawn due to adverse effects. I wonder if thalidomide (this was not approved in the USA but was in Europe and Canada) would have been approved it if came out today, not the 1950s.

I still have a good bit of skepticism RE homeopathy but am quite willing to try it for a condition for which allopathic medicine does not offer much. 

I had a large kidney stone many years ago of "the type that does not dissolve" and was told I would have to undergo surgery. A friend snuck in a homeopathic medicine for that and I figured "Well, what's the danger?" danged if that stone did not disappear. 

So they scratched their heads, told me I must have passed it (mind you this thing was wicked- causing me to urinate out big clots, painful, AND they had me filtering my urine) and I went.....really? REALLY? wouldnt I have felt it pass or caught it in the filter?

As a chemist who has taken graduate level courses in quantum mechanics...well....I am still skeptical but it is no matter, matter is after all not but energy.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In Germany they do clinical (double blind, placebo controlled) studies on herbals/extracts before Dr.s will recommend them. Homeopathics are a different ball game.

Since I have a lot of family in Germany they will send us some of these tested, tried and true remedies. 

I'm fine with companies making a fair profit, I am a business owner myself, however what we have in the states is not a free market when it comes to pharma.

My Doc had me on a particular brand name med, price kept going up and told her I can't afford it anymore. She was surprised it wasn't generic yet, the reason it wasn't generic is the company added a vitamin and re-upped the patent.

Some drug companies will actually pay generic makers to NOT make their drug in generic after the patent expires.

Now I'm a big believer in the free market but a few big players gouging and monopolozing - a free market does not make. 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> It looks like they might also be making some money, too - not as much but someone is making money, I would guess:
> 
> <snipped>
> PLUS 3.1 billion (in one year) dollars on homeopathic medicine.
> ...


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> In anti-vax defense, many things are coming back because we DID over vaccinate. Penicillin was grossly overused and now many strains of bacteria are penicillin resistant. There are now new stains of TB that are even deadlier, and resistant to the vaccines because we over vaccinated and followed improper vaccine protocols.


This doesn't make sense to me. Viruses can only change if they are active.
If they are able to become active again in the environment then yes they can change. Whooping cough has made a big come back over here in the last 5 years or so which coincides with our immunization rates falling to the lowest they have been in years. There is a new strain now which has emerged which our vaccinations do not seem to prevent. 
Maybe I am totally off base here but it seems to me that by vaccinating LESS has allowed these viruses to rear their ugly head again thus allowing them to mutate.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

sparra said:


> it seems to me that by vaccinating LESS has allowed these viruses to rear their ugly head again thus allowing them to mutate.


Seems to make sense to me. By not vaccinating at all, don't we benefit from and rely on all the ones who are?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Science And Vaccines | Dogs Naturally Magazine

Most of our vaccine posts are met with skepticism. Vets and pet owners alike want to know what evidence is behind our articles. Most of our articles are based on information that we can fully reference and, time and time again, we provide evidence to support our claims of vaccine dangers. It is good that people are skeptical of what they read, that they don’t blindly follow what they read or hear. We love when people ask for proof because we ask the same questions. *What nobody seems to ask for is proof that vaccines work.* This comment may seem tongue in cheek, but the reality is, nobody has done this research. Here are a few things you might not know about vaccines, in the words of vets, doctors, immunologists and pet owners


Wildlife biologist Dr Roger Burrows noted that ‘Lions in Serengeti National Park (SNP), followed by those in the Masai Mara of Kenya, died like flies in 1994 from a new strain
of canine distemper (CD). This followed a period 1992-94 when domestic dogs of agropastoralist/farmers to the west, and Maasai pastoralists dogs to the east of the SNP boundaries were being experimentally vaccinated against rabies during a vaccination trial .The same new strain of CD in the rabies vaccinated domestic dogs was subsequently found in the lions and was then found to have caused the death from CD of most of a captive colony of wild dogs in Mkomzai Game Reserve in Tanzania in 2000-2001 – these wild dogs had been vaccinated against CD (using an inactivated strain developed for North Sea Seals!).”
“Following this, in 2007 the same new CD strain was for the first time identified in free living African wild dogs in Maasai areas to the east of SNP where mass vaccinations of
local domestic dogs were being carried out against CD, CPV (parvovirus) and rabies. The outbreak confirmed in one large wild dog pack was associated with high mortality of this highly endangered canid species’.”
“When local breeds of domestic dogs around Serengeti National Park (SNP) and the Masai Mara of Kenya were vaccinated against rabies, and then soon after succumb to a virulent outbreak of CD, it would seem to indicate that the rabies vaccinations caused some immunosuppression and thus increased susceptibility to CD.”

....“Canine parvovirus is closely related to feline viral enteritis virus.” says Catherine O’Driscoll. “The sudden widespread appearamce of the disease in 1979 has led to the suggestion that it originated from an attenuated feline enteritis vaccine strain.. ..Read that sentence again: it is thought that a vaccine caused parvovirus.” (What Vets Don’t Tell you about Vaccination, p 129)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

eye opening , scary book , "The Secret History of the War on Cancer" [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Secret-History-War-Cancer/dp/B003STCMWO/ref=pd_cp_b_1[/ame]

see who bankrolls and see who profits !


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

great little read Pukka's Promise by Kerasote - covers everything from food , to vaccinations , to spaying (life shortening !!) http://www.amazon.ca/Pukkas-Promise-Quest-Longer-Lived-Dogs/dp/0547236263/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365891414&sr=8-1&keywords=pukka%27s+promise


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Eat For Health - The Anti-Cancer Diet

faraja101 | Faraja

Anticancer: A New Way of Life: David Servan-Schreiber, Robert Fass: Amazon.com: Books

--- yes he passed away , but that was 20 years after being diagnosed with brain cancer -- extremely interesting speaker . RIP


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> great little read Pukka's Promise by Kerasote - covers everything from food , to vaccinations , to spaying (life shortening !!) Pukka's Promise: The Quest for Longer-Lived Dogs: Amazon.ca: Ted Kerasote: Books


Don't forget the toxic toys that Ted tested(lots of T's in that sentence!) If you look at toys for your dogs, how many are made in China, how many say non-toxic? Dogs constantly have a toy or a chew in their mouths.....do you know what is in the toys you purchase? I've been recently looking at labels and there are few safe ones to choose from. And now Cuz's are manufactured in China.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> ....“Canine parvovirus is closely related to feline viral enteritis virus.” says Catherine O’Driscoll. “The sudden widespread appearamce of the disease in 1979 has led to the suggestion that it originated from an attenuated feline enteritis vaccine strain.. ..Read that sentence again: it is thought that a vaccine caused parvovirus.” (What Vets Don’t Tell you about Vaccination, p 129)


I read the sentence again......two words....."suggestion" and "thought"......well it must be right then.....


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

sparra said:


> I read the sentence again......two words....."suggestion" and "thought"......well it must be right then.....


Conspiracy theorists thrive on bizarre, loosely linked ideas like this, and the sales from their books about it. They have an idea of they want to be true and grab data from every which direction to make it so, and invent some laughably embarrassing narrative, usually riddled with logical holes, to make it so. _Literally_ the complete opposite of science (where you theorize and make conclusions from observed data).

I'll stick with science, reason, and rationality over wild speculation and insanity.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

suggestion and thought/wishful thinking is the currency of the the psued-science"*unproven*" crowd.


fact is i am yet to meet a doctor that says whole organic/naturally grown foods and balanced diets of fresh green leafy vegetables, fresh fruit and variety of fresh meats/fish etc all in moderation is *bad* for you and that doing regular excrcise, minimising stress, spending time with family....etc is *bad* for you.

i have never met a doctor that reccomends *you eat more *processed foods full of artificial additives: colours/flavours/preservatives, sleep little, do no excercise or have any recreational outlet.....just never met one???

the conflict i think is deep-grained and a backlash to the world that is and the world people would like, market research has proved that just about everyone in the developed world *wants* ethically produced, whole fresh organic foods etc, same market research also shows that when it comes to buying the weeks groceries that the product that is a few cents cheaper will always sell more of - *market fact* proven over and over yet people still SAY they will support ethically produced, organic blah, blah but in general they will not, *simple proven fact of the market*. there are a minority of financially well off people that might be different and an even smaller minority of people that base their life around what they preach eg wholistic etc but the vast majority are happy to be green-washed and buy the heavily processed cheaper food with a picture of a water fall in the forest on the label to save a few cents per item.

as long as we believe in unlimited economic growth then we will get the increasingly toxic foods we eat, the poison air we breath, destruction of our soil base and just about everything else that will keep us reliant on big pharma, big industry, big mining, big energy...


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> This makes me laugh. Your kids were inevitably around other non vaccinated kids many times and you just didn't know it. Plus the whole point of vaccinating is that your kids are supposed to be protected from the diseases. So what exactly would you be worried about?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The whole point of vaccinating is not only to protect yourself from the disease its also to protect the entire community. Its called Herd immunity. It only is effective if a a vast majority of the community is vaccinated. Thats why its important and annoying to those of us who are responsible and get ourselves and dogs vaccinated when others make unscientific statements scaring others into making a dumb decision. 

Some information about what I am talking about:

"Herd immunity
If a critical number of people within a community are vaccinated against a particular illness, the entire group becomes less likely to get the disease. This protection is called community immunity, or herd immunity. On the other hand, if a critical number of people in a community do not get vaccinations, diseases can reappear.

In 1974, the Japanese government stopped vaccinating against pertussis because of public concern about the vaccine’s safety and due to the decline in the deaths caused by whooping cough. Five years later, a pertussis epidemic in Japan affected 13,000 people and killed 41. Similarly due to low measles vaccine uptake a measles outbreak occurs in US in 1989. The outbreak resulted in more than 55,000 cases of measles and 136 measles-associated deaths."

source: Vaccine Immunity


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> *What nobody seems to ask for is proof that vaccines work.* This comment may seem tongue in cheek, but the reality is, nobody has done this research.





JPF said:


> In 1974, the Japanese government stopped vaccinating against pertussis because of public concern about the vaccine’s safety and due to the decline in the deaths caused by whooping cough. Five years later, a pertussis epidemic in Japan affected 13,000 people and killed 41. Similarly due to low measles vaccine uptake a measles outbreak occurs in US in 1989. The outbreak resulted in more than 55,000 cases of measles and 136 measles-associated deaths."
> 
> source: Vaccine Immunity


And they still want more proof........


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Herd immunity will never apply to a community like dogs. There are lots more strays and completely irresponsible owners than there are responsible owners rejecting the so called science of vaccines. And most of the vaccines are for diseases carried by wild animals which will never be vaccinated. The environment is where dogs get these things, so if you want your dog safe then lock it up in a room.

Ill repeat- dogs arent getting sick from each other as much as from wild animals. Vaccination science is not where it needs to be. They just changed many vaccinations from annual to 3 years. That means they were overvaccinating for years.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

volcano said:


> Herd immunity will never apply to a community like dogs. There are lots more strays and completely irresponsible owners than there are responsible owners rejecting the so called science of vaccines. And most of the vaccines are for diseases carried by wild animals which will never be vaccinated. The environment is where dogs get these things, so if you want your dog safe then lock it up in a room.
> 
> Ill repeat- dogs arent getting sick from each other as much as from wild animals. Vaccination science is not where it needs to be. *They just changed many vaccinations from annual to 3 years. That means they were overvaccinating for years.*


And this is huge. Suddenly everyone should be put in jail for not having 100% faith in Veterinarians and the AVMA, when they have been over-vaccinating dogs for years and years, and they probably still are. 

As for people, we live 70 years, 80 years, 90 years, and we get vaccinated for most stuff how many times? Once? MMR, Small Pox, Polio. We don't keep going back every three years until we are dead.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

JPF said:


> The outbreak resulted in more than 55,000 cases of measles and 136 measles-associated deaths."
> 
> source: Vaccine Immunity


136 people in 1989 was equal to .00000005% of the population.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> 136 people in 1989 was equal to .00000005% of the population.


thats also .00000005% percent of the population that didn't need to die. I'm not sure your point????


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> And this is huge. Suddenly everyone should be put in jail for not having 100% faith in Veterinarians and the AVMA, when they have been over-vaccinating dogs for years and years, and they probably still are.
> 
> As for people, we live 70 years, 80 years, 90 years, and we get vaccinated for most stuff how many times? Once? MMR, Small Pox, Polio. We don't keep going back every three years until we are dead.


wheres your proof we are over vaccinating?

and why are you comparing humans with dogs? That is not always a good comparison. Some medicines that work great in rats do not work at all in humans.

I don't have 100% confidence in anything. But I think that like most people who trust the scientific process, that it our best bet for finding the truth.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

volcano said:


> Herd immunity will never apply to a community like dogs. There are lots more strays and completely irresponsible owners than there are responsible owners rejecting the so called science of vaccines. And most of the vaccines are for diseases carried by wild animals which will never be vaccinated. The environment is where dogs get these things, so if you want your dog safe then lock it up in a room.
> 
> Ill repeat- dogs arent getting sick from each other as much as from wild animals. Vaccination science is not where it needs to be. They just changed many vaccinations from annual to 3 years. That means they were overvaccinating for years.


"so called science of vaccines"?!?!?...hilarious. Its sad that we even have to respond to such a comment. Where is your research showing that there is no scientific proof of the effectiveness of vaccines? Or that herd immunity doesn't apply to dogs??? Please point me to one peer reviewed study that makes such a dumb conclusion...please.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I didnt mean they dont work, but why reapply annually or 3 years? There is a lack of science on that.


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## MichelleMc (Mar 3, 2013)

unfortunately I have had many experiences with parvo. When I was young with my family dogs, and with my own as a adult. I've seen too many dogs suffer with parvo. Is a horrible disease. Since I began vaccinating my dogs none of them have gotten parvo. When I adopted my husky puppy from the dog pound, she had parvo. I'd had enough experience with it to notice it immediately. She's alive because of it. All of my dogs have been extremely healthy so far. They are ages, 14,12,10,1 and 6 months.
I know there are reasons not to vax, but after seeing how terrible parvo is I will risk it.
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

I have not "vaccinated" a child of mine since my now almost 17 year old daughter almost died at 15 months old. The majority of the diseases they are vaccinating against are rare to none, and risk of injury from vaccines is substantially higher than EVER being exposed to the disease. Also, vaccines are only effective for 5 to 10 years... seen any of the BABIES that got the holy chicken pox vaccine, and came down with shingles, some have died, others permanently disfigured? Now they are finding Guardasil CAUSES cancer, after they pushed it on people without adequate research.
I have 3 kids, 15, 14, and 5 that have NEVER been shot... they just require WAY to many vaccines for tiny babies. It is ridiculous. I should be put in jail? Because I cared enough to educate myself and protect my children from something that is clearly harmful to them? Oh well. 
On the other hand, my dogs.... Parvo is VERY common, and horribly destructive, and puppies need protection. My dogs are vaccinated against parvo. I have lost puppies to parvo, while vaccinated littermates were unaffected. No, it is not 100%, but it makes a difference preventing a horribly agonizing death, and is EVERYWHERE. Even if you catch it early, it is a nightmare. I feel Parvo vaccines are worth it, but that's as far as I go. If there was some terrible disease that affected humans, and was a very high chance my kids would get it, I would vaccinate against it... but shooting them full of hundreds of shots, that protect against little to nothing for a short time... NOT HAPPENING. Sexual disease shots for newborns? Oh hail no. It is out of control... put common sense back in it. Common sense has left the building


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

dazedtrucker said:


> I have not "vaccinated" a child of mine since my now almost 17 year old daughter almost died at 15 months old. The majority of the diseases they are vaccinating against are rare to none, and risk of injury from vaccines is substantially higher than EVER being exposed to the disease. Also, vaccines are only effective for 5 to 10 years... seen any of the BABIES that got the holy chicken pox vaccine, and came down with shingles, some have died, others permanently disfigured? Oh hail no. It is out of control... put common sense back in it. Common sense has left the building


The majority of diseases are rare because of those vaccinations. 

Whooping cough is making a come back because some people are refusing to vaccinate. 

Common sense is vaccinating against horrible terrible childhood diseases. 

Idiocy is because one had a bad reaction once, making out like all vaccinations are terrible.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> The majority of diseases are rare because of those vaccinations.
> 
> Whooping cough is making a come back because some people are refusing to vaccinate.
> 
> ...


If you actually take the time, to learn about the whooping cough come back, most of the people getting it WERE VACCINATED. Do the research. They are not rare because of the vaccines, they were naturally dying out ANYWAY... I am not an idiot, and NONE of my kids has had a terrible childhood disease. There is just TOO MUCH mandated. Why on earth should babies be vaccinated against an STD?? Babies DIE from the vaccine... not from Hepatitus B. When the risk outweighs the benefit, why on earth would you do it to your child?!? That is true for far too many of them....


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Example of government mandates killing a child.. yes, he was already sick.. but the law says "GIVE HIM THE VACCINE". It killed him...I can post HUNDREDS MORE. Ian's Voice Have done my homework... tenfold.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

dazedtrucker said:


> If you actually take the time, to learn about the whooping cough come back, most of the people getting it WERE VACCINATED. Do the research. They are not rare because of the vaccines, they were naturally dying out ANYWAY... I am not an idiot, and NONE of my kids has had a terrible childhood disease. There is just TOO MUCH mandated. Why on earth should babies be vaccinated against an STD?? Babies DIE from the vaccine... not from Hepatitus B. When the risk outweighs the benefit, why on earth would you do it to your child?!? That is true for far too many of them....


I gave my kids all required vaccines. They are happy and healthy grown ups today, so I have no need to research more. It worked! In the 80's I worked at a vet clinic, and we gave our dogs shots every 6 months and when friends all around me had dogs dropping like fly's from Parvo mine were healthy. 

I just love how the anti vacc crowd does a little research on the internet, thinks they know better than doctors and vets who spent years and years in school learning this stuff.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Those who would have a whole group of people jailed because they assume their decision is not based on valid reasons should be jailed.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Bottom line, you take the risks you want with your children, and I'll do the same with mine.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Bottom line, you take the risks you want with your children, and I'll do the same with mine.


Your kids should not be allowed into school with mine. You choose to take that risk, but you are putting others at risk with your decisions. Just sayin....


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> The majority of diseases are rare because of those vaccinations.
> 
> Whooping cough is making a come back because some people are refusing to vaccinate.
> 
> ...


Remember when chicken pox was just a childhood disease? I remember when the fax came out. The primary reason for giving it was so that parents wouldn't have to miss work, and kids wouldn't have to miss school. Now, it is being listed as one of those deadly childhood diseases. Same with measles, mumps and rubella. 
By the time our fourth child was born (10 wks premature), we'd had enough experience with side-effects that hospitalized our other kids, that we were done with the 'coincidence' theory. 

My daughter had pertussis when she was 3, though the CDC was reluctant to name it since she'd had one vaccination at 2 months. So, either the one vaccine did just fine....and protected her when the disease is most dangerous......or pertussis is like the flu and well managed for a great majority of people. I harbor no resentment towards whomever she might have caught it from. Know why? Because we all determine which risks are acceptable to us.

Incidentally, until the age of seven, our boys each spent no less than 40 days of hospitalization. This excludes countless emergency room visits following each vaccination.

Daughter? Even with pertussis, was never hospitalized outside of when she was born (7 wks). One emergency room visit following first shots and treated for asthma.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What I don't get is how you feel that the unvaccinated kids are putting the vaccinated ones at risk if you believe so strongly in the vaccines. 

Back when my kids were vaccinated for polio, the primary source of polio was, in fact, the vaccine. While I was not too concerned about naturally occuring disease, there were numerous cases of disease being transmitted through the feces of vacinnated kids and I felt vaccination was my only option.

There is no disputing that. That is why they have since gone back to a killed vaccine in the United states. That is always a risk with a modified vaccine and the majority of vaccines are modified.

Polio vaccine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> What I don't get is how you feel that the unvaccinated kids are putting the vaccinated ones at risk if you believe so strongly in the vaccines.



Intentionally unvaccinated students putting other children at risk

Many Parents Skipping Kids' Shots, Putting Other Kids at Risk - US News and World Report

The Harm of Skipping Vaccinations or Delaying


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

dazedtrucker said:


> .
> On the other hand, my dogs.... Parvo is VERY common, and horribly destructive, and puppies need protection. My dogs are vaccinated against parvo. I have lost puppies to parvo, while vaccinated littermates were unaffected. No, it is not 100%, but it makes a difference preventing a horribly agonizing death, and is EVERYWHERE. Even if you catch it early, it is a nightmare. I feel Parvo vaccines are worth it, but that's as far as I go. If there was some terrible disease that affected humans, and was a very high chance my kids would get it, I would vaccinate against it... but shooting them full of hundreds of shots, that protect against little to nothing for a short time... NOT HAPPENING. Sexual disease shots for newborns? Oh hail no. It is out of control... put common sense back in it. Common sense has left the building


I was hospitalized last year when I became dreadfully ill. Marrow stopped producing red blood cells. Excruciating pain In all of my joints. White count was 101. Not 101,000. Not 1100. Turned out, I had Parvo B19. Parvo B19 is the same virus that causes Fifth's Disease in children, which my children have suffered with no ill effect. I should have been immune, but had just had thyroid removed, and immune system was crap.

Relating now to your post: my daughter weighed all of four pounds and had yet to reach the date she was originally due to be born (premature)-and she was given full dose. When I voiced my concern, I was told that our bodies are designed to take such things in stride. 

3 days later, we were in ER. Her lips were blue, her respirations were 190, low-grade fever, and she was audibly wheezing. Same as her brothers used to do. A month of breathing treatments, and antibiotics to stave off secondary infection.....and a pediatrician who, despite the charts that proved a pattern with our other children and all indications of a repeat with this one, insisted it wasn't vaccination related.....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

@ Shepherdmom -- Doesn't this only put the UN-immunized children at risk? Not the immunized ones?


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Your kids should not be allowed into school with mine. You choose to take that risk, but you are putting others at risk with your decisions. Just sayin....


Since your children are vaccinated and mine aren't, then mine are the ones 'at risk'. If your children's Immune systems are so weak that they require vaccinations and bubble living in order to be'safe', then you might consider home schooling.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Intentionally unvaccinated students putting other children at risk
> 
> Many Parents Skipping Kids' Shots, Putting Other Kids at Risk - US News and World Report
> 
> The Harm of Skipping Vaccinations or Delaying


Intentionally unvaccinated? As opposed to what...unintentionally unvaccinated? No bias in THAT report.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Remember when chicken pox was just a childhood disease? I remember when the fax came out. The primary reason for giving it was so that parents wouldn't have to miss work, and kids wouldn't have to miss school. Now, it is being listed as one of those deadly childhood diseases. Same with measles, mumps and rubella.


You and I must be from different worlds. When vaccines started coming out it was to prevent deaths of children not so that parents wouldn't miss work. 

If you think 100-150 deaths a year from chickenpox is an acceptable risk more power to you. CDC - Chickenpox Surveillance - Varicella

I got chickenpox as an adult when my kids had it. (the vaccine wasn't available yet) it is no easy childhood disease it was horrible and I was very very sick. I was so happy when I heard they had a vaccine for it so kids and adults both wouldn't have to suffer what I went through. 

As for the rest of the ones you mention they are even worse than the chicken pox. Try this link.... Immunizations - General OverviewMeasles, Mumps, and Rubella - Immunizations - General Overview Health Information - NY Times Health


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> @ Shepherdmom -- Doesn't this only put the UN-immunized children at risk? Not the immunized ones?


Didn't you read the articles? They explained how it was putting everyone at risk.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The articles really indicate the only kids put at risk are those without immunizations OR with compromised immune systems. I did read them.

It does not make sense to me to flood a child with a good working immune system with injected vaccines (not the natural way you get sick and bypassing the first parts of the immune system) to protect those with imparied immunity. Now, I am not sure what causes some kids to have racked up immune systems in the first place. It seems that should be a very large focus of healthcare given the number of kids with allergies to everything.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Since your children are vaccinated and mine aren't, then mine are the ones 'at risk'. If your children's Immune systems are so weak that they require vaccinations and bubble living in order to be'safe', then you might consider home schooling.


My kids are grown up. They had chickenpox before there was a vaccine. I remember what it was like before these vaccines were widely available. I for one am grateful for modern medicine that stopped much of these illnesses in kids. I hate to see us going back to that place where friends died when they were little because there was no way to avoid it and I think its criminal that now there is a way to keep them safe some parents are shunning it. You do what you want but I hate to see your kids suffer because you think you know better than the scientists, doctors, and those of us who managed to survive through it.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Didn't you read the articles? They explained how it was putting everyone at risk.


Know how many children die from asthma and secondary infection due to prolonged asthma attacks? Beats chicken pox death. But it's great that you would so readily discount my decision to longer take that risk with my kids.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> You and I must be from different worlds. When vaccines started coming out it was to prevent deaths of children not so that parents wouldn't miss work.
> 
> If you think 100-150 deaths a year from chickenpox is an acceptable risk more power to you. CDC - Chickenpox Surveillance - Varicella
> 
> ...


The overhwhelming majority of problems with these diseases arises when adults get the illness. Many people will be immune without getting sick because their immune systm will cut it off at the pass. Makes more sense to me to titer a child when they go into their teens - THEN - immunize for diseases for which they have no immunity.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> The articles really indicate the only kids put at risk are those without immunizations OR with compromised immune systems. I did read them.


From the second source I cited. "
"It does matter for non-exempted children. While with measles vaccination, one dose gives 95 percent protection, the pertussis [whooping cough] vaccine is very good but not perfect. Pertussis wears off over time. [So] even if a child was vaccinated, it's still possible to get pertussis," Rodewald explained. "With a lot of exempters, you can attract an outbreak. We're seeing a lot of pertussis right now."

So even vaccinated children are now at risk.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Know how many children die from asthma and secondary infection due to prolonged asthma attacks? Beats chicken pox death. But it's great that you would so readily discount my decision to longer take that risk with my kids.


Not only does my daughter have Asthma since she was a tiny baby but so do I. Those vaccines make it safer for us. Have you seen a kid with asthma get whopping cough? I have. I spent many a night in a steamed up bathroom trying to help my kid to breath between coughs. Been there done that got the t-shirt.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

@shepherdmom

http://www.update-software.com/BCP/WileyPDF/EN/CD001478.pdf

see what you garner from all 149 pgs of this on whooping cough...

the blanket statement that the *choice* of NOT vax. is to blame for the outbreak is complete falicy...when in fact is to do with the type (whole) bacteria being pulled do to MAJOR adverse effects AND the a modified version NOT being as effective and/or wearing off over time as to why there is a resurrgence....the numbers are also do to low income/poverty striken third world countries which is the norm do to malnourishment and compromised immune systems and living in filth.

Mass media hype is filtered from big pharma


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Not only does my daughter have Asthma since she was a tiny baby but so do I. Those vaccines make it safer for us. Have you seen a kid with asthma get whopping cough? I have. I spent many a night in a steamed up bathroom trying to help my kid to breath between coughs. Been there done that got the t-shirt.


Except that for us, every vaccination would trigger such severe asthma response that my kids were hospitalized and suffered subsequent pulmonary infection. We're talking more than 'steaming' in the bathroom. 

As the answer to your question is 'yes'. I have seen an asthmatic with whooping cough. Please read my posts.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> @shepherdmom
> 
> http://www.update-software.com/BCP/WileyPDF/EN/CD001478.pdf
> 
> ...


As we have already proven we can both pull studies from the internet that support our particular sides. You choose to believe what you want. I was around before some of the vaccines of today were widely available and I have seen the good changes because of them. You want to blame big pharma go ahead. I personally thank big pharma for saving the lives of millions.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Once again and with feeling: my reasons for not vaccinating my youngest is based on our family history with the vax'ing. Careful risk assessment went in to making our decision, and I believe that without benefit of having lived through our horror, it is presumptuous for anyone to decide that I was uninformed, ignorant, or should be jailed.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> As we have already proven we can both pull studies from the internet that support our particular sides. You choose to believe what you want. I was around before some of the vaccines of today were widely available and I have seen the good changes because of them. You want to blame big pharma go ahead. I personally thank big pharma for saving the lives of millions.


Do you know what/who the Cochrane Collaboration is? They are not for profit, unbiased and used by the World Health Organization


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Except that for us, every vaccination would trigger such severe asthma response that my kids were hospitalized and suffered subsequent pulmonary infection. We're talking more than 'steaming' in the bathroom.
> 
> As the answer to your question is 'yes'. I have seen an asthmatic with whooping cough. Please read my posts.


I spent nights in steamed up bathrooms because that what was available back then. We didn't have the nebulizers etc. so forth and other treatments that they now have thanks to big pharma and the medical research you are so quick to criticize.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Do you know what/who the Cochrane Collaboration is? They are not for profit, unbiased and used by the World Health Organization



Cochrane Collaboration - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Not only does my daughter have Asthma since she was a tiny baby but so do I. Those vaccines make it safer for us. Have you seen a kid with asthma get whopping cough? I have. I spent many a night in a steamed up bathroom trying to help my kid to breath between coughs. Been there done that got the t-shirt.


Was your daughter hospitalized for pneumonia secondary to her asthma directly following vaccinations? How often? How often have you watched her lips turn blue for no apparent reason? How many fevered nights in that tent in the hospital, hooked to tubes, monitors? 

I envy parents who have asthmatic children whose symptoms can be controlled. We didn't have that luxury. Our battle with our boys was constant. How often did they have attacks? By the time they were four, they could tell you what their peak flows were before actually checking. They knew that 'retractions' meant when they were three. 

How often has your three year old come running to you to tell you his little brother was retracting? 

Our youngest son took steroid pills by the time he was 2 because his stomach couldn't take the liquid prednisone anymore.

And we prayed their lungs would survive that fourth run with pneumonia that required hospitalization before they turned 2. 

Thanks....but no thanks.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Was your daughter hospitalized for pneumonia secondary to her asthma directly following vaccinations? How often? How often have you watched her lips turn blue for no apparent reason? How many fevered nights in that tent in the hospital, hooked to tubes, monitors?


Yes I have watched my kids lips turn blue, not because of the vaccinations but because she was sick because kids get sick. They are less sick now because of vaccines. I have been in the emergency room in the middle of the night holding a crying baby while they tried to get an IV into her to get her the medicines that she needed. She still has the stuffed bear they gave her at the hospital. 

Thanks to vaccines and modern medicine and some of the stuff they came up with as she got older she is happy and healthy and working on her masters degree.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Cochrane Collaboration - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com


Sooo??? what is the point about that link and acupuncture...they review science based medicine, it was other that tried to determine a placebo w/retractable needles?...besides there is so much more to energy healing that drug companies will never understand (or choose not to b/c they cannot attach a $ amount to the body's inate ability to heal itself w/o the interference of drugs) 

and the end said C.C. was "excellent"...skeptic's dictionary I guess is also the go to for the WHO? 

comparing apples and potatos

I have had whooping cough (3 weeks off school), chicken pox, mumps on one side....I don't think I ever had the flu that I can recall, NEVER pneumonia or bronchitis...haven't had a cold in 5 yrs. (and then it was less then a week) and prior not in 10 yrs.

Born in '66, there were nominal vax. - don't know which one caused teh scar on your arm, but I don't have. 

I am not as health conscious for myself as I am my dog, so have no idea why I don't get sick...dumb luck? No flu vaccine EVER?!


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Yes I have watched my kids lips turn blue, not because of the vaccinations but because she was sick because kids get sick. They are less sick now because of vaccines. I have been in the emergency room in the middle of the night holding a crying baby while they tried to get an IV into her to get her the medicines that she needed. She still has the stuffed bear they gave her at the hospital.
> 
> Thanks to vaccines and modern medicine and some of the stuff they came up with as she got older she is happy and healthy and working on her masters degree.


Charted timing of attacks, in our case, points to vaccines not causing the attacks....but exacerbating asthmatic tendencies. 

Only one bear, eh? 

Btw...my daughter is my healthiest kid thanks to not vaccinating.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> From the second source I cited. "
> "It does matter for non-exempted children. While with measles vaccination, one dose gives 95 percent protection, the pertussis [whooping cough] vaccine is very good but not perfect. Pertussis wears off over time. [So] even if a child was vaccinated, it's still possible to get pertussis," Rodewald explained. "With a lot of exempters, you can attract an outbreak. We're seeing a lot of pertussis right now."
> 
> So even vaccinated children are now at risk.


If there is a signficant risk, why is there not titer testing to ID immunity gaps. 

Oh.....this ruling means things will get worse before better. Immunizations have always had an easier ride on the safety front. Carte Blanch to push-em-through with no concern for long term consquences

Supreme Court vaccine ruling: parents can't sue drug makers for kids' health problems - Crimesider - CBS News


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Sooo??? what is the point about that link and acupuncture...they review science based medicine, it was other that tried to determine a placebo w/retractable needles?...besides there is so much more to energy healing that drug companies will never understand (or choose not to b/c they cannot attach a $ amount to the body's inate ability to heal itself w/o the interference of drugs)
> !


The point had nothing to do with acupuncture per say but the fact that their own studies contradicted each other, from the article. "While the Cochrane Collaboration is an excellent place to begin one's research on a health-care treatment, it is not an infallible guide and should be considered within the context of all the available evidence regarding a treatment." 

As to you never getting sick I have no idea. Some people are just lucky like that. Some have autoimmune issues that show up later, they never get sick because they have a hyper immune system and are just fine until that system starts attacking them.

I personally have always struggled with sick. From the time I was little, ear infection after ear infection to chronic autoimmune angeodema and urticaria, to asthma as an adult, between that and having a nurse for a mom I am unfortunately more knowledgeable than I want to be about this stuff. I will point back to the fact that my family has struggled with illnesses for years long before vaccines and polluting of the environment became a factor. 

I would say that genetics has just as much to do with things, and to not vaccinate is a dangerous form of Russian roulette.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It broke my heart to read about the gorgeous naturally reared puppy from a good breeder dying of parvo in the loving memory section. The strong immune system of the naturally reared pup was supposed to beat the parvo. I am shocked that breeders post about parvo on their premises and among their pups and adults. Everybody their own, but I would not purchase a pup from a breeder who had parvo on their premises. 

I am all for natural health (raw, supplements, etc.) and titers, but totally denying vaccinations is absurd. I understand that some people are more sensitive, and sensitivity should be handled on a case by case bases. My pup had a reaction to his first combo shot and we developed a vaccination schedule (one at a time and premedication) for him and it worked fine. After he acquired immunity, he was titered. He was always very healthy. And I watched puppies die of parvo in rescue after $3000/day ER treatments - because the owners did not vaccinate. It is painful to watch the suffering and treatment is extremely expensive and not successful.

Steve Jobs did not fare so well on naturals for his cancer and regretted going late with conventional medicine that people keep trashing.

I am grateful that I lived in an age of vaccinations. The doctors and nurses came to the school and vaccinated everybody. Nobody ended up in emergency rooms after these vaccinations.

I lived through the last smallpox epidemic in Europe. Vaccinations were in effect for 50 years, which minimized the damage. A vaccinated person, a pilgrim from the middle east brought it to Europe. The person had a mild case and recovered quickly because of the vaccinations but managed to infect several people which ended up in a 170 person epidemic. Martial law was enacted and the entire affected population was revaccinated. My mother, an MD, was in lockdown in her hospital because one of the hospital patients was in the same ambulance as one of the infected people. It is scary, and I am grateful for the vaccinations I got (got revaccinated 4 times before the vaccine "took").


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

BTW what on earth are the unvaccinated children doing with the feces of the vaccinated children so that it affects their health. really.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

RebelGSD said:


> BTW what on earth are the unvaccinated children doing with the feces of the vaccinated children so that it affects their health. really.


Because not all children have proper hand washing hygeine drilled into them. Most assuredly not preschoolers who SHOULD be supervised but often are not. 

From watching hospital staff and doctors, they don't either and many childcare workers who are changing diapers then preparing snacks were not necessarily the brightest bulbs in school either. You don't have to have clumps of feces all over your hands to have virus and bacteria on your hands which is easily transmitted between between people. The gels are a joke.

It is not an issue NOW because they changed the vaccine due to people catching polio from newly vaccinated children! 

Polio Transmission

I am actually not entirely opposed to any vaccines for kids or dogs and I think a lot are in that camp. But we have to consider the value and risk associated with the massive cocktails of vaccines for anything and everything nowadays. I don't think a lot of the safety advances that have been made (such as removing thimerosal, looking at ways to remove aluminum adjuvants [which boost immune response but can have unwanted allergy side effects]) would have been considered had it not been for public outcry.

How DOES a newborn baby contract Hep B, which is a blood borne pathogen? I was immunized for Hep B at the ripe old age of 30 and only because I was working in a laboratory testing human blood 8 hours a day.

I agree on the whole flu vaccine [not taking it]. I am not sure I have ever had the flu. I am 57 and had all those childhood diseases {vacinnated DPT, Polio, Smallpox-caught everything else} I have had the ocassional stomach bug or cold but they normally only last about 1 day for the stomach and 3 for the cold and are typically minor. I will admit pine pollen gets to me but not really bad...but pine pollen is massive in quantity.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> If there is a signficant risk, why is there not titer testing to ID immunity gaps.


IDK I would guess probably because titre testing is cost prohibitive. My vet does titre testing on her own dogs and says that her's have gone 8 yrs rather than the 3 but she follows the 3 when recommending because most people don't want to pay for the expense of a titre test.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Titers ARE available. I had to prove immunity to measles when I went back to grad school because I had never been immunized for it .... it was not that expensive but I don't recall what it cost.

Thing is, even when a titer is down there is a good chance you still have immunity - the levels of circulating antibodies drop but it is still there in the memory cells ready to crank back up.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I did not believe in the flu vaccine and did not take it for years. was sick more or less every year, i have sick people sneezing at me all the time at work. this year i was required to get it because of patient contact at work and I fared better.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

"I just love how the anti vacc crowd does a little research on the internet, thinks they know better than doctors and vets who spent years and years in school learning this stuff."

Wow! I have a label! I am part of the anti-vac crowd. Actually, I am not, but I am part of the anti-over vac crowd.

My dogs get rabies vacs every 3 years, only because it is law. Otherwise they would get titers just as they do for parvo and distemper.

One just had his titers run last week ($60) and is still protected against both parvo and distemper. I titer annually due to requirements of being a therapy dog and thank goodness our program accepts them!

This was year 5 of titers. My other dog will get her titers run this coming week and I expect she is also still protected. If not, I will get the vac.

And I absolutely do trust my vet or I would not be both working for him and taking my dogs (and cat) to him. For those who do not want to titer for parvo and distemper my vet gives those vacs every 3 years. Many in our area still give them annually. Why?!

I have two senior dogs, one with auto-immune issues and one just diagnosed as hypothyroid. No way will I add annual vacs to the mix.

There have been some very good discussions in this thread - and unfortunately a lot of assumptions made about those of us who do not blindly do something just because "that is the way it has always been."


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i am a confirmed sheep victim of the big pharma conspiracy, confirmed this after seeing multiple litters of puppies violently spasming to death on the cement floor in a sterile room of the rescue/shelter i volunteer at a result of parvo/distemper, vaccinations could have avoided all this and the shelter would rather spend the money on food for the pens full of young, adult and senior dogs than spend the thousands saving the unvacc'ed puppies - life looks good when you just click on the internet links of things you want to see and don't have to look at real life consequences unfold jmo.

volunteers had a job scrubbing every point of contact and more of the puppies and people that handled them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

X11, why don't you conserve your disrespect for those who are allowing these litters to be produced, probably from poorly bred poorly fed parents and dumping them on the shelter than those who are questioning the direction vaccination programs have taken and are honestly concerned about the rising trend of immune system disorders and cancers?

FWIW "life looks good when you click on the internet" There was NO INTERNET when I first started having these discussions. First one in 1976 in a universlty biochemistry class, led by professors who werve very concerned about the rising number of childhood immunizations. Subsequent ones 1982 and 85 when my own children were born. No internet then, either. These are not new discussions/concerns. Not just unthinking uneducated people clicking on links and bucking the "conventional" wisdom.

If you make choices to delay or alter vaccinations, then you need to take other measures to prevent illness and provide rapid medical care when needed. Most of the unvaccinated pups in shelters are from people who just plain don't care. 

Most of the people who are questioning this have pushed and driven the improvements we are seeing in vaccine schedules and design. We are in good company-certainly a number of veterinarians and professors of veterinary medicine are also challenging current vaccination processes.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Nancy, don't worry i have much disrespect for the people that created these litters, most were not accidents or puppy mills, the puppy mills all vaccinate for economic reasons. they are the result of breeders that breed litter after litter to sell at local markets and they avoid the costs of micro-chipping/vacc/worm/tick...etc. the puppies are cheap to purchase but the breeders still retain a high profit margin cos they actually never invested a single cent in their production.

the angst here is just spill-over.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Skye'sMom said:


> One just had his titers run last week ($60) and is still protected against both parvo and distemper. I titer annually due to requirements of being a therapy dog and thank goodness our program accepts them!


So $60 for a titre but only $7.00 for the all in one shot at the feed store. Hmmm I wonder why titre testing hasn't caught on?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> So $60 for a titre but only $7.00 for the all in one shot at the feed store. Hmmm I wonder why titre testing hasn't caught on?


 
Well if you are buying $7 vaccines from a feed store and doing yourself, and your dog has a vaccine reaction and your spend several grand to save it's life...you will not be covered by the vax. company. You see if your vet confirms a vax. reaction and contacts the manufacturer, you cna be re-imbursed for expences. 

Oh and most pay vets to do vaccines at various prices and incl. visit fer well over $60.

Many members on this forum would love to know where $60 titers were done as a thread awhile back was being quoted 400 bills...gouge...ouch

Oh, and you if admin. vaccines from a feed store is quite common in the USA, then you have to wonder why there is no concrete evidence of adverse vaccine reactions and there fore need to study further (but again - won't happen as no money in NOT vaccinating)

AND x11 - parvo is just as rampant in vet clinics, shelters, puppy mills etc. When you take a puppy who has been yanked away from what it knows - feed a substandard, denatured diet, vaccinate it - supressing the immune system for approx. 10 days, then yeah - risk of parvo...it's not herion, instant fix once jabbed into the dog, plus there is maternal immunity - pup is vax'd, doesn't take do to M.I. go to vet - pup contracts parvo, gets a shot for parvo and the whole kitchen sink...

Dogs aren't getting sick JUST b/c derelict anti-vax. crowd...dogs are getting sick b/c of big pharma...go back and read about epi-genetics


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> One just had his titers run last week ($60) and is still protected against both parvo and distemper.


I titer as well. I paid $75 for Jax's parvo/distemper and the doc said she would never have to be vaccinated again. Why would I pay that over a $15 shot? Well...why not? She was 4 when I titered. Say she lives another 6 years. 6*15 = $75. Guess I didn't lose anything there. Second, with documentation coming out that over vaccinating is causing medical issues, again...why not? In the end it saves you money. I just had this conversation with my vet. I think, and he does as well, that as more people titer the costs will come down and more vet offices will do them in house. Getting the rabies titer legal was a really big issue with him and Christine noted on the PA Rabies exemption thread that Dr. Schultz is soon providing a species specific titer for that.

I just re-vaccinated my cat as he is 8 years old. The dead vaccines have been shown to cause cancer. The MLV vaccines are safer. The vet only had the dead vaccines so I went with that given a 1 in 10,000 chance. Now, I hadn't vaccinated him since his 1 year shot and won't vaccinate him again for the rest of his life. How many of those cats with cancer from the vaccine are vaccinated every year? Probably way more than the ones that aren't over vaccinated.

People need to use their heads with the health of their animals. Modern, Western, medicine is not evil nor it is the end all of medicine. If my vet disagrees with something I'm doing then he tells me. If it reasonable, he agrees with me or expands on it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Well if you are buying $7 vaccines from a feed store and doing yourself, and your dog has a vaccine reaction and your spend several grand to save it's life...you will not be covered by the vax. company. You see if your vet confirms a vax. reaction and contacts the manufacturer, you cna be re-imbursed for expences.


Which is why they get their first puppy shot $18.00 + Exam $35.00 at vet and I give shots from then on. BYW $53.00 is still less than $60 for titre and I got the impression from my vet that titres cost her well over $200.00 on her own dogs and were even more expensive for general public.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I titer as well. I paid $75 for Jax's parvo/distemper and the doc said she would never have to be vaccinated again. Why would I pay that over a $15 shot? Well...why not? She was 4 when I titered. Say she lives another 6 years. 6*15 = $75. Guess I didn't lose anything there. Second, with documentation coming out that over vaccinating is causing medical issues, again...why not? In the end it saves you money. I just had this conversation with my vet. I think, and he does as well, that as more people titer the costs will come down and more vet offices will do them in house. Getting the rabies titer legal was a really big issue with him and Christine noted on the PA Rabies exemption thread that Dr. Schultz is soon providing a species specific titer for that.
> 
> I just re-vaccinated my cat as he is 8 years old. The dead vaccines have been shown to cause cancer. The MLV vaccines are safer. The vet only had the dead vaccines so I went with that given a 1 in 10,000 chance. Now, I hadn't vaccinated him since his 1 year shot and won't vaccinate him again for the rest of his life. How many of those cats with cancer from the vaccine are vaccinated every year? Probably way more than the ones that aren't over vaccinated.
> 
> People need to use their heads with the health of their animals. Modern, Western, medicine is not evil nor it is the end all of medicine. If my vet disagrees with something I'm doing then he tells me. If it reasonable, he agrees with me or expands on it.


I guess I'm confused. I was under the impression that you had to titre every year. Is that not the case?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> *...dogs are getting sick b/c of big pharma...*


 
yep thats all a whole bunch of newbs will need to hear as proof against all of western medicine, prepare for the new dark ages.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You don't "have" to do anything. I have no intention of titering every year. The latest AAHA vaccine recommendations state the vaccines have been proven to be effective for 5-7 years or longer. I know they were still good 3 years after the vaccines thru the titers and the levels were high enough that I should never have to vaccinate her again. If that is the case, why would a person need to prove that every year? You may need to titer for rabies every year if the titer becomes a legal source but there is no reason to titer yearly for the others.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The advice I was given was to titer after the first adult set of vaccines (first annual booster) and if the dog is shown to have circulating antibodies you are good.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

x11 said:


> yep thats all a whole bunch of newbs will need to hear as proof against all of western medicine, prepare for the new dark ages.


The newbs can and hopefully will do their research and make up their own minds.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

The only challenge of titers is whether boarding and training places and service/therapy dog organizations accept it and the frequency they require.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

x11 said:


> yep thats all a whole bunch of newbs will need to hear as proof against all of western medicine, prepare for the new dark ages.


It's already happened, at least around here. I know one person who won't use HW preventatives. Another is always sending me Dr. Becker links and won't vaccinate her dog, and is also on the verge of eliminating the HW.
I'm upset about this, because these people aren't doing any research on their own. I've been told not to give the lepto shot by these folks. Well, my vet thinks otherwise. I live in a swampy area and every year I fight with the raccoons over who has dibs on my attic. I'm getting tired of people who don't do their homework telling me what to do.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> The only challenge of titers is whether boarding and training places and service/therapy dog organizations accept it and the frequency they require.


A lot of them don't in my area and that is a big problem for those of us who have to leave our dogs sometimes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> It's already happened, at least around here. I know one person who won't use HW preventatives. Another is always sending me Dr. Becker links and won't vaccinate her dog, and is also on the verge of eliminating the HW.
> I'm upset about this, because these people aren't doing any research on their own. I've been told not to give the lepto shot by these folks. Well, my vet thinks otherwise. I live in a swampy area and every year I fight with the raccoons over who has dibs on my attic. I'm getting tired of people who don't do their homework telling me what to do.


People need to use their heads....

HW - where do you live? That is so important. If a person is in a southern state where HW is rampant, then give it year round. Whether it's western or holistic, just make sure it's not snake oil from a witch doctor. In the NE, where your chances are slim. I give May to the first hard freeze. This is a dewormer. It kills what was left the month before so no sense in giving before the mosquito's even come out.

Lepto - again...look at your environment and what the dog is exposed to. Lepto has a high rate of reaction. My friend's dog almost died. Jax's shoulder swelled up to the point she couldn't walk and she screamed. Other dogs are fine. Ask if the strains in your area are in the vaccine. If they aren't then you are wasting your money.

Nobody should be harassed over their choices nor should people follow others blindly.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

homework??? to these people the most easily digestible color by numbers explanation is the best as far as they are concerned and frankly i think they a menace to public health.

for those that like a bit of intellectual humour and not 3 second slapstick this guy about sums it up as far as the alternative medicine crowd go;

listen to the words, it's a great antidote to the lunatic healing power os crystals crowd;

_*ADMIN NOTE: some offensive language in video - discretion advised. *_


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

What I have a problem with is breeders promoting no vaccinations at all and natural rearing. And promoting the notion that parvo is no big deal when the dog's are raw-fed. The buyers who trust this can and will end up with a dead puppy sooner or later.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ummm....you might have given a warning on some of the vulgarity in your little video given some of our members are young teenagers.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ummm....you might have given a warning on some of the vulgarity in your little video given some of our members are young teenagers.


Most young teenagers today's language would make that video look like a church social.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> ummm....you might have given a warning on some of the vulgarity in your little video given some of our members are young teenagers.


if those teenagers are typical they prolly seen thousands of stylised hollywood brutal murders on television, played hundreds of hours of hyper realistic first person shooter games the best possible training available to de-humanise fellow humans, had unlimited and unsupervised access to the internet full of real footage of combat, beheadings, free porn......doubt that vid would rock their world that much.

shame thats all you got out of it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

x11 said:


> shame thats all you got out of it.


Why are you so insulting? What exactly is it you think I got out of it? You have all sorts of assumptions, don't you?


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

"So $60 for a titre but only $7.00 for the all in one shot at the feed store. Hmmm I wonder why titre testing hasn't caught on? "

Among people I know active with their dogs, agility, herding, etc. titers have definitely caught on.

If I was not active in animal assisted therapy, I would not have the titers run every year. At most, every 3 or 4 years. 

I would not use a feed store vac - I would prefer if one is given that it be during a wellness check for the dog. That said, my vet only charges about $14 dollars for the 3 year DHLPP.

Just as I pay for better food for my dogs, I am willing to pay for better care. 

Someone asked where titers are so cheap. Where are they not? I am in Ohio. The range here seems to be about $60 to 80 depending on the profit margin.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> Ask if the strains in your area are in the vaccine. If they aren't then you are wasting your money.
> .


Well, when I asked -- they don't even test for it. If a dog shows up with symptoms it is assume lepto and they don't differentiate. It is not a CDC reportable either anymore. The 4 ways have the same servovar and do not have bratislava which is a major contributor to lepto. I will update if I can get off to go meet with the vet because I asked about some recent research based on an NC State presentation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's not Lyme's I'm thinking of possibly, is it Nancy? It's been so long since I read up on Lepto (since Jax was a baby and she had her reaction) that I could be wrong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> Someone asked where titers are so cheap. Where are they not? I am in Ohio. The range here seems to be about $60 to 80 depending on the profit margin.


It all depends on where they are sent out too. Your vet should research this to get the best price. Cornell was crazy high even though that was the closest. I think Jax's were sent to Auburn but I would have to look.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks x11, that was funny. I'd send it to some people I'm thinking of, except their attention span isn't developed enough. What, listen to 10 minutes of actual words? Lol. 

Nancy, I'm watching for your update regarding the lepto vax. I know there've been dogs having an allergic reaction, and I know it's no guarantee, but I still do trust my vet in these matters.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blanketback - it's my understanding that mostly small dogs have reactions. I wonder if Jax was possibly double vaccinated because I got her from a shelter when a baby. Or maybe it's because she was a puppy that she had a reaction.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> It's not Lyme's I'm thinking of possibly, is it Nancy? It's been so long since I read up on Lepto (since Jax was a baby and she had her reaction) that I could be wrong.


No, lepto is the one with the strains. I am going to write up the results of my vet visit to discuss this-bratislava and hardjo infect dogs but are not in the blends; my understanding from an article in a police K9 magazine is bratislava is really the big one showing up. 

This really is a good link to an article on the state of vaccines 
From a respected professor of veterinary medicine, emeritus (Ford) at NC State

It addresses the lepto questions I am pushing my own vet [where I am saying I will consider - IF - you give the Merial product but I don't want the Pfizer product] and discusses the other vaccines.

2012 VACCINES & VACCINATION:The FACTS vs. The FICTION


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Nancy! Look forward to reading it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Skye'sMom said:


> I would not use a feed store vac - I would prefer if one is given that it be during a wellness check for the dog. That said, my vet only charges about $14 dollars for the 3 year DHLPP.
> 
> Just as I pay for better food for my dogs, I am willing to pay for better care.
> 
> Someone asked where titers are so cheap. Where are they not? I am in Ohio. The range here seems to be about $60 to 80 depending on the profit margin.


Well I'm a pet household. If feed store shots are good enough for the rescue I help, good enough for the local shelter, then they are good enough for me as well. For over 30 years I've given once a year all in one shots. (at one point in the 80's we were giving them every 6 months). My dogs all have lasted well into old age and have never gotten lepto, parvo, distemper, etc... The feed store shots are the exact same shots my vet gives, I know, I have checked into it. So if you want to waste your money go right ahead but I'd rather spend it on getting them a new Kong or something else. 

BTW for many years I fed old blue, the cheep feed store knock off of old Roy. My dogs did just fine. Oh yeah and I raised littermates successfully too so all you hoity-toity only have one dog at a time, I'm better than you because I spend more money, can go..... Ok deep breath I can't say that here. I'll just leave it for you to finish the thought.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> hoity-toity


 
tehe


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Wow - another new label. 

"all you hoity-toity only have one dog at a time, I'm better than you because I spend more money, can go.."

I am retired and work two (dog related) jobs to make ends meet. It is a matter of my choice on what to spend my money on. Just as it is my choice not to have more pets than I can afford to keep the way I choose.


Back to the original reason for the thread, I do believe we over vaccinate animals. I have found a way (titers) not to do that and I will continue to choose that route.

I don't feel that makes me any better or any worse than those who choose to continue annual vaccinations. I do feel the changes in protocol for rabies and DHLPP vacs supports those of us who have long suspected that all those shots were redundant at the least, and very likely even harmful to our dogs.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i would consider it an honour to be called hoity-toity , make a good name for a pup.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Skye'sMom said:


> I am retired and work two (dog related) jobs to make ends meet. It is a matter of my choice on what to spend my money on. Just as it is my choice not to have more pets than I can afford to keep the way I choose.
> 
> 
> Back to the original reason for the thread, I do believe we over vaccinate animals. I have found a way (titers) not to do that and I will continue to choose that route.


Whatever  its why I live out in the middle of nowhere so people like you don't put my dogs at risk.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Not long ago vets decided to change the location, on the body, where they vaccinated cats.

More and more cats were developing injection-site cancers. They used to be injecting the vaccine in the cat's shoulder.

Now they inject the vax into the cats back legs. That way, if there is a problem, they can amputate the leg and possibly save the cat.

To me, that's just a bandaid. Why not find the CAUSE of the problem?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> *This really is a good link to an article on the state of vaccines *
> From a respected professor of veterinary medicine, emeritus (Ford) at NC State
> 
> 
> 2012 VACCINES & VACCINATION:The FACTS vs. The FICTION


That was a really good read...thanks for posting it...

It unfortunatly won't be read by the pro "over-vaccinate" diehards, even though it is by a repected prof. and the AAHA


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

@shepherdmom.....as long as you a clear that the typical single dose 7 way vaccine you get at the feed shop only has 2 of the 6 strains of lepto that commonly affect dogs. Some of the 25 dose 7 way products have 4 strains as do the stand-alone lepto vaccines....

Do you get revaccinated annually for all your shots? Just curious. I had my last polio vaccine around 1960 so I must be overdue......for another...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Whatever  its why I live out in the middle of nowhere so people like you don't put my dogs at risk.


How is a dog that is checked for immunity instead of vaccinated putting your dogs at risk?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> @shepherdmom.....as long as you a clear that the typical single dose 7 way vaccine you get at the feed shop only has 2 of the 6 strains of lepto that commonly affect dogs. Some of the 25 dose 7 way products have 4 strains as do the stand-alone lepto vaccines....
> 
> Do you get revaccinated annually for all your shots? Just curious. I had my last polio vaccine around 1960 so I must be overdue......for another...


I live in the southwest. Lepto is not a problem here. I usually get the vaccine without it. 

As for me I get re-vaccinated every year for my flu shot, every so often on tetanus and pneumonia. I've kept up on everything my doctor has told me I need.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

volcano said:


> I didnt mean they dont work, but why reapply annually or 3 years? There is a lack of science on that.





Jax08 said:


> I have no intention of titering every year. The latest AAHA vaccine recommendations state the vaccines have been proven to be effective for 5-7 years or longer. I know they were still good 3 years after the vaccines thru the titers and the levels were high enough that I should never have to vaccinate her again..


There is no lack of science, and there are reasons for the 3 year vaccinations. Studies show that MOST dogs retain immunity for 5-7 years, but some only have high titers for 3-4 years. They make the protocol in hopes of covering ALL dogs, not MOST. Wouldn't it be a shame if the vaccine protocol was every 7 years but you had the dog that only maintained immunity for 4 years? 



jocoyn said:


> Well, when I asked -- they don't even test for it. If a dog shows up with symptoms it is assume lepto and they don't differentiate. It is not a CDC reportable either anymore. The 4 ways have the same servovar and do not have bratislava which is a major contributor to lepto. I will update if I can get off to go meet with the vet because I asked about some recent research based on an NC State presentation.


We test for lepto frequently. Now, it's not a completely reliable test. Mostly testing for antibodies the body is producing as it fights lepto. Theoretically a dog that has had the lepto vaccine in the past could test positive. But vets aren't diagnosing off tests alone. It's a combination of test + vaccine history (Or more often NO vaccine history) + most importantly SYMPTOMS. We've lost patients to lepto. And yes, correct, the vaccine does not cover all serovars of lepto. But it covers 4 of the major strains (and I feel like some vaccines do cover bratislava)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do not know of a single vaccine that prevents bratislava 
Merial Recombitek 4 is the only one with known ability to prevent shedding
I know the vet we have uses Pfizer. 

If they are shedding spirochetes they have a low level chronic infection wouldn't they? And could still be a source of infection for other dogs. That is my issue!

Also there is cross reactivity with some of the antibodies - you have to do PCR for accurate identification. 

From the link I posted above - Dr Ford - NC State

_Because duration of immunity (DOI) information on the 2-way leptospirosis vaccines had never been defined, veterinarians and academicians have questioned the need to administer leptospirosis vaccine every 6 months (or more often) to sustain a protective level of immunity. Recently (August 2010), the Recombitek® 4 Lepto vaccine (Merial) was released in the US; this product does carry a label claim of 15.5 months DOI for L. grippotyphosa. Data is available that demonstrates a 12 month DOI for serovars L. canicola and L.icterohemorrhagiae. Unique among the currently licensed leptospirosis vaccines, challenge studies conducted at Cornell have shown that the Recombitek® 4 Lepto vaccine does prevents infection as well as shedding of spirochetes. Currently, this is the first and only USDA licensed leptospirosis vaccine with a label claim for prevention of infection and shedding_

Information from Foster and Smith
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=454

I believe the Pfizer vaccine has an adjuvant and the Merial does not but I could be wrong. I would like to see the package insert which would contain basic overview of clinical trials.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anubis_Star said:


> There is no lack of science, and there are reasons for the 3 year vaccinations. Studies show that MOST dogs retain immunity for 5-7 years, but some only have high titers for 3-4 years. They make the protocol in hopes of covering ALL dogs, not MOST. Wouldn't it be a shame if the vaccine protocol was every 7 years but you had the dog that only maintained immunity for 4 years?


Which would be why I *used the science* *and titered* *per my vet*. I'm not sure what you are arguing about with me? I didn't pull the information out of the air nor do I ever recommend a person not vaccinate. I urge everyone to do their research and use their heads.

And the recommendation per AAHA is not every 3 years anymore per the new guidelines that came out last year.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Not long ago vets decided to change the location, on the body, where they vaccinated cats.
> 
> More and more cats were developing injection-site cancers. They used to be injecting the vaccine in the cat's shoulder.
> 
> ...


They did find the cause. Dead vaccines....

Dead vaccines cause inflammation. Inflammation causes the cancer. MLV vaccines do not cause the inflammation reaction like the dead vaccines do. Just had this conversation with my vet last weekend when vaccinating my cat. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the cats vaccinated year after year with the dead vaccines are the ones with the highest rate of cancer. A cat on a limited vaccine regiment would not have the exposure. that would be my uneducated theory.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Low titer results doesn't mean the dog isn't immune.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Draugr said:


> Low titer results doesn't mean the dog isn't immune.


That is correct. It is covered in the article I linked by Dr Ford, NC State
But titers do indicate immunity and is a good way to test a dog to make sure the immunizations actually "worked"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Draugr said:


> Low titer results doesn't mean the dog isn't immune.


My understanding, per my vet, is that while a low titer doesn't mean the dog doesn't have immunity but may need to be boosted. 

If my dog showed a low immunity, I would titer again in a few months to see if it is dropping or, if low enough, revaccinate. Vaccines do "wear off". I had to have an MMR booster when I went back to school because they found they only last about 10 years. And tetanus...there is a reason that you have to have a booster every few years to be protected. The same theories should apply to animals.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting. Before about 1980 the MMR was a killed vaccine and duration of immunity for killed vaccines was not as long as attenuated (modified live). 

Polio WAS modified live (actually the first vaccine was killed but some issues with batches not being killed drove the country to modified live but it was the primary sourc of polio so they want back to the killed vaccine. Which I gather may loose efficacy after awhile.

Tetanus, well that is a bacteria and all bacterial vaccines are killed, not modified, and wears off as well.

I know I was titered for measles 35 years after the actual infection and had a strong titer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmm...I would have had mine pre 1980 so when I went back to school in the late 90s, NYS required a MMR booster because of a campus outbreak, where they learned the immunity only lasted about 10 years. 

Polio - I was actually the year after they stopped but Mom snuck me in to be vaccinated a year early to get it.

Did you actually have the measles? Does that give a different immunity than a vaccine? I always wondered that. If you get a virus, you can't get that same virus again...if that is true, why do vaccinations not do the same?


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> So $60 for a titre but only $7.00 for the all in one shot at the feed store. Hmmm I wonder why titre testing hasn't caught on?


Wonder why not everyone pays through the nose for top of the line dog food, either. 

See how that sounds?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Wonder why not everyone pays through the nose for top of the line dog food, either.
> 
> See how that sounds?


Sounds about right. I refuse to pay through the nose for top of the line anything. Its a waste of money. I refuse to pay through the nose for people food too. Name brands mean nothing as far as I'm concerned. 

Now what does that have to do with vaccinations?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

shepherdmom, why do you concern yourself with what people spend their money on? Very bold to tell people they are wasting their money. Throwing out there "hoytie toytie" based on what someone spends because you wouldn't. Very odd. Guess you consider yourself the outspoken type, huh?


Glad that you & your vet are on the same page and your happy with your pets care. Perfect.


I am as well. My vet supports limited vaccination & titer testing. I will pay close to $150.00 for both parvo & distemper. For me it's not about the cost, it's about what's best for my boys health & well being. I would pay that over and over before giving a vaccine that he doesn't need. No biggie, to each his own.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Courtney - I'll look up Jax's titer and PM you the place. I only paid $75 for the titer for both.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Michelle, much appreciated


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Sounds about right. I refuse to pay through the nose for top of the line anything. Its a waste of money. I refuse to pay through the nose for people food too. Name brands mean nothing as far as I'm concerned.


You do what you want, and what is right for you.

But we will do the same, and will ignore those who look down on us for spending more. We worked for the right to do whatever we want with our money.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> It unfortunatly won't be read by the pro "over-vaccinate" diehards, even though it is by a repected prof. and the AAHA


I find it very difficult to take your posts seriously when you make disparaging comments such as this one. If you're referring to me: I've spent many hours reading about the lepto shot, everything from 'Aunt Martha's Krazy Kures' to the IVIS site. 

I'm trying to mitigate risk. I live in an area rife with lepto. I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of undeveloped land, and the wildlife that come with it.
The area is swampy, with marshes, and we spend all summer swimming in the river. I believe I would be negligent if I didn't give this vax.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> I'm trying to mitigate risk. I live in an area rife with lepto. I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of undeveloped land, and the wildlife that come with it.
> The area is swampy, with marshes, and we spend all summer swimming in the river. I believe I would be negligent if I didn't give this vax.


And that, IMO, is exactly what you should do. It's why I gave Jax the Lyme vaccine last year and will again this year at her yearly checkup. We are in an endemic area and the occurrences of Lyme are increasing exponentially in animals and humans. 

And unfortunately, Lepto and Lyme vaccines do not have long term immunity so are needed every year (per Dr. Dodds)


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I find it very difficult to take your posts seriously when you make disparaging comments such as this one. If you're referring to me: I've spent many hours reading about the lepto shot, everything from 'Aunt Martha's Krazy Kures' to the IVIS site.
> 
> I'm trying to mitigate risk. I live in an area rife with lepto. I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of undeveloped land, and the wildlife that come with it.
> The area is swampy, with marshes, and we spend all summer swimming in the river. I believe I would be negligent if I didn't give this vax.


Unfortunately I'm in the same boat, lepto is too big a risk in my area and where we visit. Even my vet who supports limited vaccinations agrees with me that both dogs should have it each year. 

As for the comments regarding people paying too much for quality food and the like, they're entitled to their own opinion and it doesn't mean I love my dog less or more or am less intelligent then them


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> I find it very difficult to take your posts seriously when you make disparaging comments such as this one. If you're referring to me: I've spent many hours reading about the lepto shot, everything from 'Aunt Martha's Krazy Kures' to the IVIS site.
> 
> I'm trying to mitigate risk. I live in an area rife with lepto. I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of undeveloped land, and the wildlife that come with it.
> The area is swampy, with marshes, and we spend all summer swimming in the river. I believe I would be negligent if I didn't give this vax.


I completely understand why you give lepto. I don't give lepto because my area is not high risk. I have gone back & forth on this one because we hike alot but at this time am going to pass. It will be revisited again.

Hepatitis, this will also be discussed with my vet as I understand it's on the rise.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I find it very difficult to take your posts seriously when you make disparaging comments such as this one. If you're referring to me: I've spent many hours reading about the lepto shot, everything from 'Aunt Martha's Krazy Kures' to the IVIS site.
> 
> I'm trying to mitigate risk. I live in an area rife with lepto. I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of undeveloped land, and the wildlife that come with it.
> The area is swampy, with marshes, and we spend all summer swimming in the river. I believe I would be negligent if I didn't give this vax.


Nope, not refering to you at all

However I am refering to any and all who make blanket statements that vaccines are based on science and then challenge those against annual/tri-annual to provide "peer reviewed" studies to dispell the scienctific myth...AND YET, these same posters are NOT providng science based *proof* themselves, just flipping the others off (not you blanketback), just media links that get their story b/c it was leaked by those that benefit from sensationalism ($$$) then go on to say they will trust their vets opinion and big pharmas opinion, but not the opinion who has no finacial gain despite the studies, challenges, stats, stories, blogs, and threads of vaccine reactions.

Big pharma donates money to AVMA, funds CDC studies, FDA and veterinary schools (especially where funding is cut)...So vets aren't scientists, they preach what they are taught - if a vet went to an interagtive school then they would promote health as learned (and conventional vets should extend their education), but when $2-300,000 is spent on an education to dispense drugs, snip gonads, and squeeze anal glands, jab vaccines and sell pesticides for use in some area's with almost NO HW for use for 6 months, then I will continue to wag my finger at the state of health care BOTH human and animal...steroids don't cure they mask, antibiotics are way over scripted, hot spot comes back...stronger abx....give a clinical name to it "folliculitis" or flea bite dermatitis rolleyes...

You alter the immune system, dump pesticides in the blood, but blame the skin issues on food...well food too is a problem...whole other thread

Jocoyn provided an easy to understand link - nobody who is pro-annual vx. has said WOW, why doen't my vet read this....it wasn't a blogger who wrote it...it was a professor


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

In my area, rabies used to be a terrible problem. Over a decade ago aerial bait-dropping cut down on this considerably. Lyme's is now showing up, when we'd never seen it here in the past. With the decline in bat populations, mosquitoes are hard to keep in check. I do what I can, with what I can. I plant things to encourage beneficial insects and also to discourage the nasty ones. But it's so darned discouraging when other people are taking a 'do nothing' approach and will opt out of HW and now vax as well, and question me for my choices - which are hard decisions for me to make, keeping the well being of my dog first and foremost in my mind.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> You do what you want, and what is right for you.
> 
> But we will do the same, and will ignore those who look down on us for spending more. We worked for the right to do whatever we want with our money.


Excuse me?? I don't look down on anyone. Except those who abuse animals. It was being implied that I wasn't giving my dogs the best care, because I choose to give the vaccines myself and I don't titre. 



> "I would not use a feed store vac - I would prefer if one is given that it be during a wellness check for the dog. That said, my vet only charges about $14 dollars for the 3 year DHLPP.
> 
> Just as I pay for better food for my dogs, I am willing to pay for better care


Well la te da... sorry I refuse to spend a fortune on one dog when save more by being prudent with my money. What you do with your money is your business but don't you dare talk to me like you are better than me because you choose to spend a fortune at the vet or on dog food. 

My dogs are healthy, loved and vaccinated. Because I choose to not buy into the whole "big pharma" is bad doesn't make me a unworthy dog owner.

and those that are implying that I'm uneducated because I don't buy into the pseudo science brought about by the holistic nazis are full of it. Just because someone makes money doing something does not make them evil. There is a reason we have agencies like the FDA, the CDC and the AVMA and to discount their recommendations because we feel we are smarter than the experts.... Well that seems to me to be to be a foolish choice.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Jocoyn provided an easy to understand link - nobody who is pro-annual vx. has said WOW, why doen't my vet read this....it wasn't a blogger who wrote it...it was a professor


Why should I say wow, why doesn't my vet read this? I know a professor who thinks global warming is not real. Just because a professor said that should we believe it? Should we run out and say OMG this professor thinks global warming isn't real so go ahead and keep pumping toxins into the atmosphere? Or should we go with the current consensus of experts? 

Until a majority of vets and professionals say different, I'll stick with the recommended guidelines over one persons opinion floating around on the internet. Thanks!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Excuse me?? I don't look down on anyone.


It was your "hoity toity" comment.
It is one thing to state what you do, another thing to say that others who don't do as you do are assuming airs, pretentious, and haughty.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> There is a reason we have agencies like the FDA, the CDC and the AVMA .


Ok, well, we know those agencies are perfectly incorruptible.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The link is buried so I will repost.

2012 VACCINES & VACCINATION:The FACTS vs. The FICTION

Richard B Ford is respected by the veterinary profession and is a co-author of the AAHA vaccine guidelines. He is professor emeritus at NC State Vet School. The Vet school has a pretty good reputation for its vector borne disease laboratory and epidemiology. When a friends dog got pseudorabies (100% fatal, you should look it up due to feral swine) they were the facility that diagnosed it. The AAHA Guidelines are Voluntary Guidelines that many many many practices follow. 

AAHA Yearly Conference 2010 | Program Speaker Bio Details

I went out of my way to *not *find someone out of the mainstream. The article is very informative about recommended vaccines, types of vaccines, titers, dosing frequencies etc.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> The link is buried so I will repost.
> 
> 2012 VACCINES & VACCINATION:The FACTS vs. The FICTION
> 
> ...



Thanks, Nancy. I need to lower my hackles and read the info, LOL.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That article is what I will be discussing with my own vet since he claims there is only ONE lepto vaccaine (the Merial which I cannot buy online) that (a) has no adjuvants and (b)has clinical data to show it compeltely clears the infection.

I would possibly give lepto every year to lower my odds (your dog can still get it because it only covers 4 strains) IF I were not also pumping in the adjuvant which is the main cause for concern. 

FWIW-humans can get lepto through cuts, mucous membranes and swallowing water. Swimming is a main route of entry in the US. There is no human vaccine. The preventive in lepto endemic areas is doxycycline given one dose per week.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> It was your "hoity toity" comment.
> It is one thing to state what you do, another thing to say that others who don't do as you do are assuming airs, pretentious, and haughty.


Is it not pretentious and haughty to look down on me for going to the feed store for my shots? 

Is it not assuming airs when she said that


> Among people I know active with their dogs, agility, herding, etc. titers have definitely caught on.


implying that those who don't do sport are better than the rest of us? 

The comment was not directed at you Sunflowers and I'm sorry you took it that way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

can we PLEASE get back on topic?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> The link is buried so I will repost.
> 
> I went out of my way to *not *find someone out of the mainstream. The article is very informative about recommended vaccines, types of vaccines, titers, dosing frequencies etc.


and I did read it the first time contrary to what has been implied. Lypto is not an issue in my area, Rabies is mandated by the state, I don't give Bordetella as I never board my dogs or take them to daycare. I'm already following the vet guidlines for the 3 years on the shots. 

and finally this "18. Antibody titers as a valid assessment of immunity.

FICTION: Antibody titers can be used in place of annual vaccination boosters to assess immunity.

FACT: It depends! 

Seems to support my decision not to titre but instead choose to go ahead and give the vaccine.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shepherdmom, I replied privately. 

I am on the fence about the Lepto vaccine now, given what I read about the low occurrence rate down here. 

I did vaccinate Hans when we were up north, because we literally had foxes peeing in the yard. I saw them. 

He had no side effects.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> and I did read it the first time contrary to what has been implied. Lypto is not an issue in my area, Rabies is mandated by the state, I don't give Bordetella as I never board my dogs or take them to daycare. I'm already following the vet guidlines for the 3 years on the shots.
> 
> and finally this "18. Antibody titers as a valid assessment of immunity.
> 
> ...


Not really - read beyond "it depends" -- Honestly I don't care how often you immunize your own dogs but don't give the rest of us a hard time and tell us we are putting your dogs at risk for doing titers or even not immunizing after the intial series is complete. 

"Fact: Titers for CDV, CPV, and feline parvovirus (panleukopenia) correlate extremely well with immunity...dogs/cats that have a “positive” titer are considered immune…quite likely for many years. Fact: a “negative” titer does not always correlate with susceptibility. Antibody is a glycoprotein and does dissipate over time. Animals that were previously vaccinated may lose Ab over time; however, immunologic “memory” (B-lymphocytes) is retained for many years for these 3 diseases. Exposure to virulent virus in a previously vaccinated, but antibody negative patient, typically results in a rapid anamnestic ‘boost’ of antibody titer and a protective immune response"

*In other words - boostering a dog once it has a low titer is being more cautious than is probably needed-because the immune system still remembers the virus.*

You are right, Lepto is not active in Northern Nevada though it is in No Cal and Southern Nevada. Many of us, inlcuding me, have to face a decision about this one so I felt it relevant.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> can we PLEASE get back on topic?



Topic...


> the anti-vacc crowd should be put in jail-rant.


Ok I say yes.  they should be put in jail and I think I've done my own share of ranting already. :rofl:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Not really - read beyond "it depends" -- Honestly I don't care how often you immunize your own dogs but don't give the rest of us a hard time and tell us we are putting your dogs at risk for doing titers or even not immunizing after the intial series is complete.
> 
> You are right, Lepto is not active in Northern Nevada though it is in No Cal and Southern Nevada. Many of us, inlcuding me, have to face a decision about this one so I felt it relevant.


Going way back the OP's rant was about Parvo, and really where I was agreeing having just dealt with three parvo puppies at the rescue kennel where I help. 

I doubt that titres are even a subject that comes up with the type of people who dump sick puppies in shelters. I am talking about people who have yards full of dogs that are not ever vaccinated at all. The won't even pay for the $7.00 feed store shot much less a titre.

However the thread got hijacked by the anti-vacc people so I kinda just went with it. I find it interesting the way these threads morph and change over time. For a big section in the middle of this thread that was about kids and getting them vaccinated and into school, which again was way off of the original post. 

Now its moved onto Lepto and since I have no dogs in that fight, being in Northern Nevada, its time for me to move on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hmmmm. 

I have no articals or links to back up this. 

But I think that the study tested lots of dogs 5 years post vaccination, and some 7 years post vaccination and found the titers all within the acceptable range, and the vet doing the study felt that the immunity was lifelong, but that they could only give 5-7 years as that was what they actually tested. 

One thought is that after the 1 year booster, you titer the next year or in three years and if your dog has immunity then your are good, no more vaccinations are necessary. 

But I could be all wet on that. That is how I initially heard it, and it makes sense to me. I mean, I had chicken pox when I was a kid, and I never got it again because I built up antibodies against the disease. I never got measles or mumps or reubella because I was vaccinated against those and I was never revaccinated. 

Parvo is terrible, but I think the majority of the dogs/puppies that get parvo got it because their dam had never been vaccinated and they were exposed when they were unprotected. 

I think we do over-vaccinate. 

On the other hand, I have never dealt with parvo. I am terrified of it and distemper, but having not experienced it, maybe I am not fearful enough. 

I just took some 11 week old pups to the vet for their second set of puppy shots. I am not against vaccinations, but I am against over-vaccinating. And I will not vaccinate against some stuff because I feel the possibility of severe reactions is worse than the possibility of getting infected and needing treatment. 

Parvo and Distemper are killers. I think most of us do vaccinate our critters against those and rabies. We are just trying to be smart about how often we do it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 24, 2011)

*Vacs*

I think a good 'limited vaccine vet is good to rely on. My 3 yr old shepherd gets her 6 in 1 every year but nothing else except her rabies every 3 yrs. It depends on the area where one resides with their dog on what 'is out there' that needs to be addrssed as far as shots. Some vets give the 5 in 1. Lime disease does not need to be given unless one lives in a lime disease area, Corona the same as well as rattlesnake. I've never had problems with vacs in 7 german shepherds we've had over the years. But again, they have gotten limited vacs. I do know that titers are only as good as when they are given, the titer can go down in between testing and disease CAN slip thru. I'd never chance titers. 
Nancy from Temecula


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i will say that i am now more inclined to learn about less vaccination protocols than when i first ranted - seems it's about making an individual health plan based on yr individual dog and environmental circumstances which requires a higher standard of knowledge, effort and input of the owner in a dialogue with the health provider.

i can now fully understand the uncritical blanket vacc approach promoted by my vet as they feel a responsibilty to the whole community health of the dogs in their area and know a blanket approach is prolly best overall as most owners are not going to create an individual health plan for their dogs.

i really appreciatte the enlightened discussion that changed my uncritical views.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I got something, too. I think if I were actually breeding dogs I would consider maintaining parvo titers high in the female to provide strong maternal antibodies to the pups before the first immunizations for parvo. 

A single Modified Live Parvo vaccine would not be as bad as a cocktail of many vaccines and I think that seems to be far more of an issue than distemper or other diseases at that tender age.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

I have personally seen animals come into our hospital die horrible deaths from parvo, distemper, and lepto. 

Parvo is by far the most common.

These are not fun diseases. They are very awful to see. Just the routine of gowning up an going through every little step of isolation protocol is a fatigue in and of itself. 

On top of that, to then watch your patient bleed out of its orifices and suffer at the very start of its life...over something preventable...

In every single instance, the animal had not been vaccinated, and majority were under 8 weeks of age. The lepto dog was never vaccinated but was from out of state. It was having complications when the owners had traveled to my area to visit family. Lepto is a vaccine I do not feel comfortable with due to reported reactions, but it still killed this dog. Not sure what to think now.

p.s. - This whole thing of "your vet is a money hungry selfish jerk" nonsense needs to stop.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

TankGrrl66 said:


> I have personally seen animals come into our hospital die horrible deaths from parvo, distemper, and lepto.
> 
> Parvo is by far the most common.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

I was not going to reply any more on this thread, however since I have been repeatedly quoted, I feel I should.

It is obvious to me that my statements are being taken personally and inaccurately rather than in the spirit they were made.

Example:

"Is it not pretentious and haughty to look down on me for going to the feed store for my shots?"

I apologize that you thought I was looking down on you. First, I was not. Second, since I was not looking down on you I don't deserve the repeated being called pretentious or haughty, hoity toity etc. You are making assumptions about me that are far off the mark. 

You will not titer - I will not buy vacs at feed stores. That is a statement not a put down. Not because they are from feed stores - because I prefer that any vacs given are part of a complete wellness exam. "I prefer" - I did not say "everyone should". 

I do not think am being pretentious for my belief any more than I think you are. Just personal opinion.



As far as this "implying that those who don't do sport are better than the rest of us?"

That is amusing to me. I don't "sport" either so I am not sure why you would make that assumption.

This was in reply to your statement that titers have not caught on. Dogs that do compete in herding, agility etc are some very physically strong dogs. And I find (me, personally) that their owners tend to do a lot of research and discuss among themselves changes in things like vacs, foods, exercise and other things. I learn from them and then do my own research.

They seem to be among the first to feed raw, look into alternative medicine and yes, titer instead of vac. They have some awesome healthy dogs - just as I am sure you have awesome and healthy dogs.

I thought this was a discussion and was not aware that those with differing opinions would be subject to being slammed.

Since the name of the thread is "the anti-vacc crowd should be put in jail" I guess I could easily have taken that personally. I did not - I took it as an invitation to discuss the difference between anti-vac and over vac.

I am enjoying the well thought out posts by many on this thread. I have learned a lot.

Again, I did not set out to or intend to put anyone down for having different opinions than my own. However, I also do not feel responsible for anyone warping the meaning of what I say.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't buy vaccinations from the feed store because I am afraid they may not have been handled and refrigerated properly through the transportation, storage, etc. But, then, I am ok with it if that makes me hoity toity. 

If you think I am hoity toity, I won't lose sleep over it. 

If you mess up my name, we'll have to talk.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

setser, setser, setser.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes, Seltzer.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

It really has been a great thread.....lots of good info.

I too will be considering 3 year vaccinations for my dogs.....why spend the money of it is not necessary.
I haven't shifted on vaccinations when it comes to my kids though.....I view that as more of something I need to do for them AND society whereas it really makes no difference to anyone else how I handle my animals shots.

I think there is a big difference between humans and dogs when it comes to the vaccination debate.....it just gets plain confusing when you try and compare the two.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, Seltzer.


Haha....yes that is a common one......


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

:wild:

Glad someone has a sense of humor tonight! 

I swear it has to be a full moon or something.

I think I need a shot. 

And a beer.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

a shot AND a beer!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

selzer said:


> :wild:
> 
> Glad someone has a sense of humor tonight!
> 
> ...





x11 said:


> a shot AND a beer!


Now this should be a thread!!!

we can make it a drinking game...do a shot, make a post...interesting to see if turns into a drunken idjit war, or a alcoholic hazed love fest:wub:

kind of like the random thread, but with booze


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Who says the random thread does not have booze? Pass those jello shots, and the brownies!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

selzer said:


> Who says the random thread does not have booze? Pass those jello shots, and the brownies!


 
brownies (?)...hmmm (slowly nods head)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah the brownies were those special ones a while back.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't buy vaccinations from the feed store because I am afraid they may not have been handled and refrigerated properly through the transportation, storage, etc. But, then, I am ok with it if that makes me hoity toity.
> 
> If you think I am hoity toity, I won't lose sleep over it.
> 
> If you mess up my name, we'll have to talk.


I can't believe this thread is still going. 

I think that the post office handles them the same, if they are going to the feed store or to the vets office. I'm not losing any sleep over it. Besides if I vaccinate every year and I only need it every three I'm sure one of the three shots will be good right?  

I think I can get Selzer right at least until I have the shot AND beer. Not so sure I could get my own name right after that. :toasting:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Skye'sMom said:


> I was not going to reply any more on this thread, however


Grab a shot AND beer and didn't I see that someone has brownies? .... After Boston, all this petty bickering seems meaningless. eace:

Time to relax and :doggieplayball:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> ...do a shot, make a post...interesting to see if turns into a drunken idjit war, or a alcoholic hazed love fest:wub:


 
just tried...don't feel any different but just wanted to say i really love man


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

x11, this thread was actually very imformative. Thanks for starting it

I personally like when threads read like a face to face conversation. A topic can stray but it was a good read.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

selzer said:


> Yeah the brownies were those special ones a while back.


Speaking of brownies, whatever happened to JessieWessie?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

arycrest said:


> Speaking of brownies, whatever happened to JessieWessie?


I don't know, was thinking of her after making that comment last night. Hopefully she's just busy with school or something.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

selzer said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My litter that got Parvo had a fully vaccinated dam, that did not get Parvo, and was surrounded, and totally saturated with it. The Parvo came on after the pups were 12 weeks.. some had left for new homes, and didn't come down with it. The pups were vaccinated as well... my yard was apparently the source... just info...


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This little one broke my heart

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/loving-memory/177070-rest-peace-cierny.html


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