# Ball focused GSD & "drop it"



## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

Mavrik & I worked on "drop it" a lot in class. He'll do it, but when we're playing ball with the chuck-it he gets so ball driven that he'll scramble for the ball he just dropped; grab the actual chuck-it; or grab both balls (he can mouth two).

When he gets like this he won't surrender the ball(s). Period. And using a treat is useless because his entire focus is the ball(s).

Our trainer used a short slip lead & I have one (a Klin from Legacy K9). The trainer advised constant pressure until he dropped whatever & he learned with the bite pillow - but he just "takes it" with his balls - and I feel like I'm choking him.

Our trainer moved to Charlotte so I'm currently on my own.

Anyone else ever deal with this level of intensive ball focus?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You might try taking his excitement level down by making it more formal. Play with one ball,have him sit in front of you when he returns. Then drop it into your hand, stay in the sit until you release him to fetch again.Enthusiasm is a good thing!


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

I used an e collar a few times until he got the message. It didn’t take long, a few corrections in one session, and from then on he would out. He already knew how to out when I used the e collar, he just didn’t want to at times. It’s an interesting thing because I love my dog’s ball drive, it makes so many things possible, but at the same time he has to be willing to out.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sonny1984 said:


> I used an e collar a few times until he got the message. It didn’t take long, a few corrections in one session, and from then on he would out. He already knew how to out when I used the e collar, he just didn’t want to at times. It’s an interesting thing because I love my dog’s ball drive, it makes so many things possible, but at the same time he has to be willing to out.


This was Deja as well, especially after a few throws. Waiting her out didn't work as she got more determined to hold on. What does work great is to immediately put her on a down stay, ball in her mouth, as soon as she doesn't release on command, then I ignore her while I play with Bo. Few minutes are enough to get the message.


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## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

I think the e-collar. @dogma13 's 1 ball suggestion is a no go. I just tried it and he won't relinquish the ball (which is why I was using two - and 60% of the time that worked 90% of the time).

I'm aiming for more formal training play. Sit next to me, I chuck the ball, he chases it when I say "break!".

Right now, the best I get is he drops the ball of anticipation of the ball in the chuck-it, I maneuver him to my side by collar and tell him "sit" and then I lightly hold his collar, chuck the ball and simultaneously say "break" and release him.

What he wants is to come barreling up, spit ball 1 at me from 20 feet away and have me immediately chuck ball 2 while he's 6 feet away. Play, play, play.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

ODA564 said:


> chuck the ball and simultaneously say "break" and release him.


No real advice from me. If you throw the ball and simultaneously say a command the dog is likely breaking for the ball and not your words. I'd make sure this isn't happening. Stand on leash - throw - wait a second or 3 - then break. Just to be sure he is hearing the word and obedient to it. Work on the impulse. I had to start with very small not to tempting throws. He may also be breaking from the collar release. 

I have a ball crazy chuck it maniac with a bit of possession. Lots of patience in teaching to minimize conflict. Took alot of time to get him to take food in the presence of a ball.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

ODA564 if you really decide you want things to be different it's very doable by slowing things down,insisting on obedience, and repetition. If you're actually enjoying her crazy intensity that's great too. Totally your choice
In that case carry a mesh bag with several balls so you never run out, lol.She can't cram five or six in her mouth,right?Enjoy!


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## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> ODA564 if you really decide you want things to be different it's very doable by slowing things down,insisting on obedience, and repetition. If you're actually enjoying her crazy intensity that's great too. Totally your choice
> In that case carry a mesh bag with several balls so you never run out, lol.She can't cram five or six in her mouth,right?Enjoy!


He'll try! He can do two tennis-sized balls in his mouth and will guard a third (paw on it).

In all other things, Mavrik is a "soft" temperament GSD who is very obedient. 

I tried to slow things down. One ball and insisting on obedience. He won't release the ball (unless I use his slip collar and I practically choke him out and don't want to do that). He's stubborn (in this).

I want it to be training play as opposed to frenzied play.

I should add he drops the ball to go inside when play time is over - he knows what to do. And this never came up in training because there was no ball chucking.


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## gonzales (12 mo ago)

Toy Method






Prong Collar






E collar - Better know what you're doing here. I recommend learning from Larry if you go e-collar.


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## xthine (Nov 9, 2018)

Josie’s whining reverberates in the neighborhood when we work on ball retrieves. She’s much better about it now as far as outs but still is very vocal with anticipatory movements when I have her wait to be released for the retrieve.

How is your dog with outs using a tug toy? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

gonzales said:


> Toy Method
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My trainer and I worked on e-collar with both the late Otto and with Mavrik. I know what I don't know.


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## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

xthine said:


> Josie’s whining reverberates in the neighborhood when we work on ball retrieves. She’s much better about it now as far as outs but still is very vocal with anticipatory movements when I have her wait to be released for the retrieve.
> 
> How is your dog with outs using a tug toy?
> 
> ...


With his bite pillow or a tug ball he'll drop it (on command) about 65% of the time (maybe 70%), And he'll drop it with just firm pressure on the slip tug when he doesn't do it at once. He'll also wait for his release on those.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

ODA564 said:


> I should add he drops the ball to go inside when play time is over - he knows what to do.


You've answered your own question with the statement above! Your dog doesn't know what it is you want, most probably because you're trying to teach him within the context of the game. Yet he "knows" he has to drop it to go in, and so does it no problem!

You can use a slip lead or prong or ecollar to sort of force the behavior you want, or, figure out a way to elicit the exact behavior you want without the force. In both cases it's a matter of teaching the dog the behavior you're after in a way that the dog understands!

My preference, and advice, is to lose the force and teach the behavior one step at a time. Don't accept anything less than 100% compliance with each step in the process, and make that compliance worthwhile to the dog!

Done correctly, he'll figure that out on his own too!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Switch to a tug (or another toy) and get to 100% immediate compliance. Then transfer to a ball with a rope. Get to 100% immediate compliance. Transfer to a ball and then use corrections for non compliance.

I've trained a ton of green dogs with no out whatsoever, including dogs that won't out with 2 e-collars. This method works in my experience.

Timing is critical here, as is communication. I ensure that the dog is fluent in markers before we start. You also have to be patient to begin with and the party has to be huge for compliance.

A great reference for this method is the Michael Ellis video The Power of Tug, or something like that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

To explain further:

A ball is a terrible object with which to teach out. You have no control and the dog has all the control. Switch to something you can control and build the habits you want. Then transition to other things with corrections (proofing).


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## femafgm (8 mo ago)

ODA564 said:


> Mavrik & I worked on "drop it" a lot in class. He'll do it, but when we're playing ball with the chuck-it he gets so ball driven that he'll scramble for the ball he just dropped; grab the actual chuck-it; or grab both balls (he can mouth two).
> 
> When he gets like this he won't surrender the ball(s). Period. And using a treat is useless because his entire focus is the ball(s).
> 
> ...


See one of my previous posts-oh yeah! I found that she would play quite nicely just wearing an e-collar, very collar wise, and suddenly just becomes an angel. And no, I didn't hammer her with it, mostly tone for marker, one less thing to juggle. But stim did help her understand that "drop" wasn't a suggestion.


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## femafgm (8 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> You've answered your own question with the statement above! Your dog doesn't know what it is you want, most probably because you're trying to teach him within the context of the game. Yet he "knows" he has to drop it to go in, and so does it no problem!
> 
> You can use a slip lead or prong or ecollar to sort of force the behavior you want, or, figure out a way to elicit the exact behavior you want without the force. In both cases it's a matter of teaching the dog the behavior you're after in a way that the dog understands!
> 
> ...


Yes, that's interesting, mine too....she would clutch that thing for dear life, but when we got to the door and I said drop, out it went. Very surprising, but employed it to teach her that giving it was a good thing, usually a bunch more treats!


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