# working line pups and drive development



## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

good afternoon all,

I have been reading a lot about puppy development recently and have a few regarding working line pups, drive and temperament testing.

I know that I would like a working lines GSD because of my and my dogs activity levels and my training goals. 

I know that I will be having a breeder pick the pup for me, and I'm certainly going to request a pup on the more mellow end of the drive spectrum.

I have also been reading a lot about the development of drives in working pups.

I am unclear as to how much a breeder can tell about the pups drives in the 10 weeks or so before I get the pup. 

This will be my first gsd and I know I want a driven active dog, but I don't want a "bouncing off the walls" driven dog. 

I don't necessarily intend to train for Sch but I want dog with enough drive to be very responsive to obedience and agility training as I intended to one of these competitively with the pup. However I might well decide to get into SCH training. 

How big of a factor is drive development (the parts that I as the owner would do) in working line pups? If I got a "mellowish" pup from two super driven parents would I be able to condition this pups drives to suite my activity and training levels? 

I realize that genetics are a giant factor in this stuff so I am certainly going to be relying on my breeder for a great pup, but i guess I'm kind of confused as to weither i should request a pup that "isn't suitable for working" or if I should explain that I want a fully "working" dog that I don't intend to do a lot of drive development stuff with. 

I feel that I would rather have a dog that was more "drivey" because i can always give her an outlet and/or stuff to satisfy her drives, than a less than driven dog who i would have more difficulty training up for competitive events. 

I'm sorry if these questions are a bit convoluted but I'm still trying to gain a good grasp on these things and I'm glad this place is full of people with lots of good experience in these matters.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The best a breeder can do is an educated guess. 
My own Kenju I picked because he was the pup that crawled in my lap. ...He grew up to be fear-aggressive and high drive

My advice, if you know what you want, is to find a reputable breeder you trust that also has lots of past litters worth of experience. Someone who has seen the pups and what they grow up to be.

After that, yes..you can build or decrease drive by training methods. For your situation, I would tell that experienced reputable breeder you want a medium-high drive pup. There are a few GSDs doing agility at upper levels. You may want to check into their breeders.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

First, high drive is not the same as high energy. You can have a dog that gets crazy for his ball, but without it he's perfectly happy chilling on the couch. Or you can have a dog that can't stop moving and pacing but you can't really motivate with anything. 

Two years ago I wanted a young dog for SAR. I was looking something between 8 to 18 months, so I asked every rescue telling them what I wanted. I met a dozen of pups that, because they were chewers, barkers, restless, one even with a bad case of SAS. None of them had the drive I needed for SAR. I abandoned the search and got a pup, but it taught me that very fer people really knows the distinction between drives and energy levels. Make sure the breeder you chose is actively involved in training and trains his own dogs, I also know a bunch of breeders of show high-lines who can't recognize between them either.

Second, I would recommend you to meet more dogs before make your choice, to see wich ones are those who excel in competition and between them wich ones you'd be happy living with. The breeder can't pick the perfect pup for you if you are still unsure of what you want.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You could choose working lines or, for what you describe



> Quote:I don't necessarily intend to train for Sch but I want dog with enough drive to be very responsive to obedience and agility training as I intended to one of these competitively with the pup. However I might well decide to get into SCH training.


German show lines -- that group has titled parents, and, depending on the line might have as much drive as you want in your first GSD.

I think if you find a really good, hands on (not one of those flashy mulit litter kennel) breeder who knows his lines (look for a breeder who thinks enough of his own breeding progeny to hold pups back for breeding) you can describe yourself and what you want and trust them to pick the pup.

If you've never had a GSD, you'll be pleasantly surprised with their desire to please and willingness to work for you.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also agree its all in the hands of a good breeder. do lots, and lots of research. a good breeder with proven working lines can work with you on getting the right pup. you get a less reputable breeder they will sell anyone anything for the $$$$$ and you won't get what you want.
the willingness of a breeder to listen and work with potential buyers is worth its weight in gold, anything less is unacceptable.

debbie


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

If possible go meet the parents, and make sure they are the type of dog you would like to own. If possible, while meeting various GSD's, and listening to others, make a list of traits you prefer and things you want to avoid.

There are some breeders who breed for top sport, some who breed for pets, and some whose goal in somewhere in between. For me, I breed working line GSDs, but I also know not every pup is going to end up in an experienced working home, I also don't think a working home is always the best quality home for a dog, so I try very hard to produced a balanced dog and within a litter usually end up with very active high drive pups for the more competitive type of owner, and have other pups that would do perfectly fine in a home as member of the family, or dabbling in obedience or agility and doing very well depending on the motivation of the owner. 

Many people get a pup with high hopes of doing schutzhund, agility, obedience, Sar, or whatever, either because they think that is what the breeder wants to hear, or they truly have the initial desire, but life gets in the way or they underestimate the level of commitment it takes to pursue such an activity, so it is very important to not only try to be honest with yourself, but also the breeder. It should not be difficult for a good breeder to choose a pup for you that would do well in such activities, but also be a good family member if high level formal training turns out not to be realistic.

More important the the type of home is the type of leader you can be for the dog. Any good GSD definitely needs consistent and confident leadership. 

A good GSD is just as happy walking to bus stops with mom, runnigng errands, going on walks, and playing ball in the yard as they are performing highly disciplined tasks. 

My Hawk, who is many many times SchH3, and has competed nationally many times, and is almost obsessive when it comes to playing with anything I am willing to throw for him, is also just as happy riding in my truck all day on a long road trip or snoozing under my desk. He does not need nor asks to be entertained constantly. 

When you go to visit breeders, and visit as many as you can, even if just to compare, try to see the dogs in the house. Many dogs are revved up when in a kennel situation and can be even more revved once the door is open and they are let out...so it is difficult to see the "real" dog. Maybe they woudl even be willing to meet you at Petsmart or whatever, so you can see how the dogs behave in public. If the dogs do schutzhund or agility or whatever, go see them at the trainign club, watch them work, then spend time with them off the field to help you get the total picture of what the dog is all about. 

Ok...I've rambled....sorry...hope some of this has been helpful....


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I agree that at best it is all an educated guess. I've known breeders who have seen their puppies later on down the road that were sold as pets and could have kicked themselves for letting them go. Also sometimes the best prospects just don't turn out as good as you hoped. However, a more experienced breeder is going to be able to make a better educated guess. Ideally you want someone who knows how their previous litters have turned out and maybe has a dog in their program that they bred and had to the opportunity to watch mature. Definitely want someone who works their own dogs. 

I think what you do has a lot to do with how your dogs turn out. I know when we bought my dog we just bought him as a pet with the idea we might do some competitive obedience or agility. He was an easy going mellow puppy. Did a lot of early obedience and drive squelching. Decided at 5 months to give Schutzhund a try. We were not so sure it would happen. He didn't seem too enthused at first but working on playing and drive building and we were able to bring it right back out. 

He still is what I would consider low-energy. Doesn't waste energy making a fuss in his crate before he comes out, just rests. Pretty much just hangs out when nothing is going on, but bring out his ball or a sleeve and then the carrying on starts! Plenty of drive without being a hyper nut ball. Total on/off switch.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausMany people get a pup with high hopes of doing schutzhund, agility, obedience, Sar, or whatever, either because they think that is what the breeder wants to hear, or they truly have the initial desire, but life gets in the way or they underestimate the level of commitment it takes to pursue such an activity, so it is very important to not only try to be *honest with yourself*, but also the breeder.


This is HUGE - Bold is mine









Being honest with yourself on what is a "I'd love to" and what is a "I will" 'cause life does have a way of getting in the way and if it's really a "I'd love to" it may very well fall by the wayside.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally agree with being honest about your intentions with a new pup. but also believe there needs to be a personality match as well.

for me, i am not a sitter, never have been, never will be. i would not be happy with a dog that wasn't ready to go when i am. i am very active in my every day life being outside doing physical activities, etc. 
i also want to bring potential out in my workingline dogs, and love to see them progress. so, knowing all this about myself helped get me the type of personality in my dogs i am happy with.

on the other hand, i think a good workingline dog should also have a turn off switch and be able to relax after some rigourous activities, and not constantly need to move.

debbie


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## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

thanks ya'll i appreciate the advice. I am certain that a working line is for me. I have a very active and "outdoorsy" lifestyle and am looking for a 24/7 companion who we can go hiking or mountain biking with, but that we can still crush the competition at the obedience trials with.


I am glad you all think its so very important to be honest with myself and the prospective breeders. I will be going to weekly training well into this dogs life in obedience for sure, and possibly agility or SCH. 

I, like debbie, just wouldn't be happy with a dog who I couldn't work and see progress. one of my favorite things is working my dog midnight in obedience because he really likes doing stuff when he knows I want him to do it, and seeing him learn is awesome. When something "clicks" the third or fourth time we do it I love it! even if it doesn't "click" until many more tries it still awesome..more fun than a pack of monkeys with a bottle of rum! 

I am very glad you were able to clarify some of this for me. I will just keep crossing off breeders from my "short list" and when I get to the ones I want to meet I will just put myself in their hands. 

I have however narrowed my list down to five and will soon be making phone calls and booking plane/rental cars and whatnot.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your questions are not off base, perhaps because I had the same questions when purchasing a pup from a good breeder.

Am I happy with my dog, beyond belief. But has he done everything I hoped for, no. There is one exception and that was SCH training. The dog did everything except he was not aggresive enough. Hated the tug, throw the thing in his face stuff. Just sat down and took a pee.

But he is very protective, and strong.

My point is simple, find a good breeder and accept the fact that like us humans, your dog will not be great in all respects.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Molly at Eichenluft has some great working line litters coming up, she is good at answering questions and guiding.
http://workinggermanshepherd.com


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I am unclear as to how much a breeder can tell about the pups drives in the 10 weeks or so before I get the pup.


I would say if it's a good breeder that understands temperament and drive (+the pedigree) you'd be surprised at how much they can tell in the 10 weeks the pup(s) lived with them..


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## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

thanks ya'll. I read some more on drive development training last night and I think I have a better grasp on it now, but I am still just going to pretty much leave it all up to the breeder that I pick or the one that picks me. I'm in no hurry so I'll probably run up my phone bill calling the breeder son the short list in the next couple weeks. 

I'm so glad I found this place...I was trying to talk to a GSD "owner" who I see at the park sometimes and she basically (in her infinite wisdom) told me that "all working line dogs are untrustworthy and dangerous...they'll steal your guns and wait for you to come home late one night and shoot you and then try to make it look like a suicide then clear out your bank account and give it all to Osama Bin Laden!! Only American Lines will pick up your trash, rake the yard and hop on one foot when you say so." Ok so I obviously embellished a bit but ya'll get the idea.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quote:I am unclear as to how much a breeder can tell about the pups drives in the 10 weeks or so before I get the pup.
> ...


At 10 weeks, the breeder has a darn good handle on the temperaments and drives....and even spending a few hours with pups, an observer can see alot....look how much we saw with the pups on Saturday! Just watching them play and interact can tell you what drives are there (retrieve for example), grip potential as well as social and environmental nerves are pretty obvious. 

Lee


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Exactly!


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## nh_greg (Jul 12, 2002)

midnight804,

Just saw this post and thought I'd add my $0.02 worth.... for what it's worth!

I couldn't agree more with what others have said... be HONEST with yourself on exactly what you want. Also, be sure to ask as many questions as possible of the breeder you're looking at. I learned some valuable lessons after my first 2 gsd's, and determined that I would do as much as possible to make the right decision the 3rd time... (3rd time's supposed to be a charm, right?). Honestly, the 3rd time was a charm for me anyway. I really wanted a dog with a lot of drive, and that all important _on/off switch _. This time I got it, and my SchH dog as well. Guess I was one of the fortunate ones.

Just remember to do your homework, ask LOTS of questions, and be brutally honest with yourself and the breeders that you're looking at. You won't regret it, and if the breeder doesn't seem interested, or won't answer your questions.... steer clear. Oh, one last thing, ask for references, and check them out. A good breeder will have (or should have) a list of people that you can contact and either speak with, or email to find out what they think, and how their experience was. Support _after _ you get your little bundle of joy home is soooooo important. 

Good luck,
Greg


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## Manfred (Sep 15, 2008)

basically what you probably want is one of the puppies in the middle

every litter will more then likely have a alpha male , the bully , and then there will be the shy timmed one , then there's the 5 or 6 pups in the middle.

even by week 6 or 7 the puppies have pretty much established pack order , by week 10 the breeder will have a pretty good idea on each puppies temperament and personalities.

but remember , we are talking about 10 week old puppies , so , well........hum.....good luck............LOL


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

I am new here so I am sure this has been mentioned before, but I am in the exact same situation as you, I am picking up a working pup this saturday. With the exception of I will definately train him in Schutzhund. The Volhard puppy test is what i plan on using to pick my puppy and I think it should be a pretty good indicator of what you are looking for. google it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Puppies are a crap shoot - you get raw material - the best pup can be as easily "ruined" by bad timing, poor helper work, or just plain incorrect training.

Puppy tests are snapshots --- you can test puppies and get results 1-2-3 one time - and 24 hours later get totally opposite results! I had a SAR trainer look at a pup this weekend - the pup wanted to smooze and didn't show toy/rag interest....an hour later with someone else the pup was a retrieving fool....and tugging like crazy on a rag....OBSERVING that pup told me about the prey drive and *I* knew the first tester was getting a false impression. The second tester could not believe it when I told her about the previous interactions.

frankly, I don't like puppy 'testing' - esp when novices and first time people think it is a way to pick a pup....I place the pups after discussion with the prospective owners and agreement on their suitablity.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Lee about using a puppy test to pick a pup. This is not a good way to go, and in terms of working prospects, the Volhard test falls well short of being able to pick out a pup for SchH. If you must use a puppy test to decide, there are others, like PAWS that are much better for working prospects.

If you're going with a breeder who knows schutzhund and working dogs (which IMO you should be if your goal is SchH) that breeder will likely be far better able to determine which pup in the litter is a good fit for your goals than you will be able to after a few minutes testing puppies. This is why most good breeders pick the pups for the customers, rather than let the customers pick.

If you have to pick yourself and the breeder doesn't have much feedback, I would try to take an experienced person along with you to evaluate the litter. Someone who has done this in the past and knows what to look for in a young SchH prospect.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

I really dont see the differences between the PAWS test and Volhard. Maybe I looked up the wrong one? I hear what you are saying about letting the breeder pick, but wouldnt this cause a problem down the line if the dog doesnt end up being what he was suppossed to be? The breeder doesnt guaruntee temperment, only health. So then what, I resent her for picking out a pup that isnt what i wanted. At least if I use a test to evaluate the dogs and it doesnt work out I know that is the dog I picked. Maybe I just have too strong a mistrust of other people. Like people have said in the end, I could pick the best dog, and he could still be ruined by a negative experience.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: dreamofwrx The Volhard puppy test is what i plan on using to pick my puppy and I think it should be a pretty good indicator of what you are looking for. google it.


If I were a breeder I wouldn't allow that. Just imagine that there is a litter of 10 to choose from, and every customer starts performing the test on puppies. It means that the last pup would be rolled over and dominated by strange people at least 10 times or more. 

Also, if you do not trust the breeder to pick a pup for you then find a different breeder you feel comfortable with.


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## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

Thanks Ya'll this thread has been most informative and I'm very happy we have a bunch of very experienced breeders and pup raiser here. 

I will CERTAINLY be letting the breeder pick the pup for me and will (when looking for the breeder I choose or chooses me) let them know very specifically what I am looking for with this pup and more importantly ,the fantastic dog it will become.


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## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

you guys rock!! I was reading about this in like ten different places before I asked the initial question and I'm much more clear on these matter now.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: dreamofwrxI really dont see the differences between the PAWS test and Volhard. Maybe I looked up the wrong one? .



Volhard test 

PAWS test 

There are HUGE differences. In fact, the intro to the PAWS test in the second link points out many of them.

The Volhard test is designed to test pets. It does not test working ability. It has only one exercise (Retrieve) that even comes close to touching on drive and the different instincts one would look for in a SchH prospect, and then it misgrades the results of that putting the optimum reaction (returns with object) as a 3.

The Volhard really only assesses basic nerve and basic trainability, and does those only in a very basic manner. Most any well temperamented GSD litter should score 1s, 2s, and 3s on the Volhard. Mostly 1s and 2s. I can't think of a single pup we've ever had that wouldn't have scored there, but that doesn't mean they were all good SchH prospects. To find a good SchH prospect requires using more than just the Volhard test. The PAWS test is designed to be used in conjunction with some of the Volhard test exercises for nerve and trainability, in order to identify whether the pup also has the genetics to work.

When selecting a pup for SchH, you also need to assess drive, grip, willingness to fight, chase, retrieve, as well as focus, problem solving, and I also like to assess scenting ablity and concentration. Most breeders of working dogs assess those things themselves through observation over a several week period. Those who do also use some form of puppy testing to evaluate pups, make sure at least some of these aspects are included in their puppy tests. Most breeders I know, myself included, have developed their own puppy tests that they use, but overall they all are testing pretty much the same thing, using mostly the same or very similar exercises. As an "off the shelf" puppy test, the PAWS test does a fairly decent job of testing most of those things, whereas Volhards' test does nothing to assess those things. 



> Originally Posted By: dreamofwrx I hear what you are saying about letting the breeder pick, but wouldnt this cause a problem down the line if the dog doesnt end up being what he was suppossed to be? The breeder doesnt guaruntee temperment, only health. So then what, I resent her for picking out a pup that isnt what i wanted. At least if I use a test to evaluate the dogs and it doesnt work out I know that is the dog I picked.


If you want a guarantee about suitability for SchH, you should be looking for older dogs, not puppies. With pups there are no guarantees. Breeders typically don't guarantee temperament because how the dog turns out in the long run in terms of ability to do SchH is every bit as dependent on the raising and training it recieves as it is genetics. A pup who has solid nerves and good drives as a pup has solid nerves and good drives. Those things rarely change as the pup matures. But the end result is heavily dependent on environment, and that is something the breeder has no control over.

But at the same time, raising and training can only mold behavior and cannot put into a dog something that wasn't there genetically. The best raising and training in the world can't make a low drive dog into a high drive one, or a nervy dog into a confident dog... but ironically, the reverse isn't true. Bad raising and training can severely inhibit a dog's willingness and ability to express his natural drive and it can make a genetically soundly temperamented dog into a fearful, dangerous monster.

I guess if you're looking at it from the negative standpoint of who to blame if the pup doesn't work out, then you picking so you can't resent the breeder is more logical. But IMO that's a pretty poor attitude to be approaching puppy selection with. And since you haven't done SchH before, haven't raised a pup for SchH before, haven't selected a pup for SchH before and apparently (based on you opinion of those 2 puppy tests) really don't know what to look for in a SchH prospect, I think you're somewhat setting yourself up for failure. Puppies are a crap shoot either way, but you can definitely stack the odds of getting a good SchH prospect heavily in your favor by picking bloodlines proven successful, a breeder with a proven track record of success producing SchH prospects, and an educated decision about which pup in the litter is the best pick for you. I don't know if you've done steps 1 and 2, but from your posts it doesn't appear that you have the knowledge yet to be doing step 3 by yourself.

No offense meant, we all had to start somewhere and none of us were born knowing how to test pups or pick one for SchH. But rather than random guessing based on only very limited and, in the case of Volhards' test, very incomplete and misleading information, we're better off letting people who do have that knowledge and experience guiding our decisions.

If I were going to buy a racehorse, I'd be sure to have someone who knew about racehorses and how to select them pick for me, whether it be the seller or an objective 3rd party. Because I KNOW I don't have the knowledge to have any hope of picking a good one myself. And that's a lot of money, and emotion, to invest without doing everything possible to make sure I get what I want and stack the odds of success in my favor.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

-very informative post, I will relook at the two tests and go back over what you have written, and come up with a proper mixture according to your reccomendations. I admit i thought there was a recall section and a tug section on the volhard. I guess I confused that with all my reading online between the two options. So yes i see the differences between the two tests. That is my fault for typing first and re reading second.


-I have been doing schutzhund for about four months, however, very basic parts of it with my older dog. Beginner ob, bitework (just moved up to the wedge), and tracking (walking along side with food every three steps)

-As for the breeder she has titled dogs to Sch 3 before and works all of her dogs. I just have had negative experiences before with breeders and feel like i trust myself over someone else. Thats not to say she isnt trustworthy or has a good opinion on which dog is right for me. But i have to have a household pet and a schutzhund dog in the same package. So some of the temperment testing in the volhard test seemed ideal to me. It is not just a "sport dog" for me that will be kenneled until training. If he doesnt get top titles, that is ok with me, as long as he can do the work and have a sound nerve.

-again, an older dog would be better for guarunteed sport dog, but he will be a pet first, working dog second. If I came across sounding like I wanted a hardcore Sch prospect I am sorry.

-And to the other poster I dont agree with rolling any dog, so I will not use that part of the volhard test.

Thanks again for the insight, and if you have anything else to add, I look foward to it. All advice is appreciated.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since the breeder is experienced with dogs for SchH, and has been living with the pups for several weeks so has a much better understanding of each pup's personality than anyone can gain in just a couple visits, I would seriously seek her input on which pup or pups she thinks is suitable, and why. It's the why that's the important part. Don't let her just point to one, ask her why she thinks that one is a good choice for you. Most breeders have no problems with these questions, and can easily answer them, and I think after listening to what she has to say you'll feel more comfortable heeding her recommendation.

Nothing wrong of course interacting with the pups yourself. You should do that. As a breeder I wouldn't allow everyone wanting a pup to take them off and run formal puppy testing on them, but doing certain elements of the puppy tests in your interaction with the pups will show you what you need to know, and most likely confirm the breeder's recommendation. 

As for having a household dog and SchH dog in the same package, this isn't difficult to achieve provided the genetic temperament and nerve are sound. Most SchH dogs who live in kennels do so because it is the choice of their owners, not because they can't be house dogs. It's personal choice and a matter of raising and training more than genetics. Dogs of sound temperament and nerve make good pets, and those things are also required to be successful in SchH. Sure, in a dog for SchH you need drive and other things that aren't needed in a pet, but the need for sound nerve and temperament never changes. And if the temperament is there, nothing that makes the dog a good SchH dog is going to preclude it from being a good companion as well. Most SchH people, including a lot of breeders and a lot of the more hard core competitors, also have their SchH dogs as family pets living in the house. So I'd say what you're looking for is more the norm than it is unusual, and shouldn't be difficult to achieve.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildSince the breeder is experienced with dogs for SchH, and has been living with the pups for several weeks so has a much better understanding of each pup's personality than anyone can gain in just a couple visits, I would seriously seek her input on which pup or pups she thinks is suitable, and why. It's the why that's the important part. Don't let her just point to one, ask her why she thinks that one is a good choice for you. Most breeders have no problems with these questions, and can easily answer them, and I think after listening to what she has to say you'll feel more comfortable heeding her recommendation.
> 
> Nothing wrong of course interacting with the pups yourself. You should do that. As a breeder I wouldn't allow everyone wanting a pup to take them off and run formal puppy testing on them, but doing certain elements of the puppy tests in your interaction with the pups will show you what you need to know, and most likely confirm the breeder's recommendation.
> 
> As for having a household dog and SchH dog in the same package, this isn't difficult to achieve provided the genetic temperament and nerve are sound. Most SchH dogs who live in kennels do so because it is the choice of their owners, not because they can't be house dogs. It's personal choice and a matter of raising and training more than genetics. Dogs of sound temperament and nerve make good pets, and those things are also required to be successful in SchH. Sure, in a dog for SchH you need drive and other things that aren't needed in a pet, but the need for sound nerve and temperament never changes. And if the temperament is there, nothing that makes the dog a good SchH dog is going to preclude it from being a good companion as well. Most SchH people, including a lot of breeders and a lot of the more hard core competitors, also have their SchH dogs as family pets living in the house. So I'd say what you're looking for is more the norm than it is unusual, and shouldn't be difficult to achieve.



10-4 I will def ask her opinion and compare it to my own feelings about the pups in question. I agree 100% with your last paragraph of having both worlds, and I believe you stated it before that there are some elements of the volhard test that can be used. The dog must have a "sound temperment and nerve" (for family purposes and training purposes)*edit Soooo, just to make sure we are on the same page, and to get the most confident dog capable of both tasks I should...

-Listen to the breeders opinions first
-Interact with the pups after that
-Take elements from both tests and compare to her recomendations.

I guess my final question is, to determine a strong nerve and confident personality (besides genetics) What elements from the Volhard test would you recommend I mix in with the Paws test?

Thanks again,

Andrew


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Things like social attraction, following, etc... are just part of interacting with pups. Nothing formal about it, and no need to try to be assigning numerical scores to puppies. Look for the bold, confident ones who come rushing over to mob you.

I don't see a need for visitors to torture pups with rolling, pinning or toe pinching. While some of this is usually incorporated into the official 49 day temperament tests breeders often do, it is not something that pups should be subjected to multiple times by visitors. Inquire of the breeder about the hardness and dominance level of each pup. Even if they didn't do an official puppy test with toe pinching, etc... they should have good insight into this just from observing the pups for several weeks. To do it again during a visit isn't an important enough insight into puppy temperament to justify, makes bad experiences for the pups, and I can think of no worse way to tick off a breeder than start pinching and rolling their puppies, so I wouldn't do those.









Only other thing I'd really do from Volhard would be the sound sensitivity, as that's one way to gain insight into nerves and resiliency. But again, better have the breeder's permission. And I don't consider running toward it *barking* an appropriate response, even though Volhard gives that a 1. You want a pup who either doesn't startle and then investigates, or startles but immediately recovers and investigates. The startle response is neither here nor there in terms of assessing nerves. The important thing to look at is recovery.

Basically in terms of assessing overall temperament and nerve, just look for bold, confident, curious, social puppies who recover quickly from anything that startles them.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

thanks for all the advice, sorry to hijack the thread, and I of course will post results tommorow after I get home.


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