# GSD playing with other dogs?



## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Are GSDs supposed to be active with other dogs, like play with other dogs? 

I have been trying to avoid any interactions between my 10month old GSD named, and other dogs. Is that the right thing to do? I read somewhere that GSDs are supposed to be aloof and not care about other things, but I'm not sure if this is true or not. My puppy doesn't really mind other dogs, when I tell him to "leave it", he will, though sometimes it takes some prompting. He is starting to ignore smaller dogs since it's not really fun to him, but for dog's his size, he stares a bit until he decides to listen to me, but it's getting a lot better since I take him to places with a lot of dogs to do training. 

I wasn't aware of poor playing habits when I first got him so when he was around 9-11 weeks old, he developed some poor playing habits according to my trainer (not taking turns, not stopping when other dogs are telling him to). Ever since then, I've been afraid to allow him to play with other dogs. What should I do?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Where in the world have your read or heard that any dog, of any breed, should be kept apart from its species?
It kind of stupefies me that such beliefs could exist, especially today with all science we have about social development.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Where in the world have your read or heard that any dog, of any breed, should be kept apart from its species?
> It kind of stupefies me that such beliefs could exist, especially today with all science we have about social development.


bro idk 😭 I was thinking more like how police gsds don't really care about other people or dogs


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Where in the world have your read or heard that any dog, of any breed, should be kept apart from its species?
> It kind of stupefies me that such beliefs could exist, especially today with all science we have about social development.


he's well socialized tho, he doesn't really mind humans but he has bad manners and I'm working on that with him


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's most probably not bad manners, it's frustration! 

Let him play! Watch so he doesn't dominate or scare other dogs, or that other dogs don't do that to him, but yeah let him play! 

Can you imagine a human child growing up without play? It's part of what is needed to make one whole!!!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

What do you mean "bad manners"?
Play fulfills the same rôle in about any mammal species: it's all about simulating as many real life scenarios and behaviors as possible, to become better at being (a dog, a human, a chimp, à cat, etc.) and develop all the skills you need. It's totally necessary to a healthy neurodevelopment, body awareness, proprioception, observation skills and so on.
So you play fight/flee, you play chase, you play dominant and submissive behaviors, you play anything. And the way a pup plays will of course reflect his individual temperament and the sum of his experiences.
There can't be poor playing "habits" in a 9 weeks old pup. At such a young age, they don't have set habits, it's all moving and evolving fast. If you let a pup interact freely every day as I do, you'll literally see them progress by the hour. A pup will only do the best he can with the skills he has at that point in time.
The pups I foster interact freely with my adults from day one. Some are timid, some are fierce, some are super respectful, some need to insist and pester and be told off by my own dogs a hundred times before they get it. All pups need a whole lot of interaction and responses from their peers to ultimately develop smart communication skills and be the best version of themselves.
These skills will only help them express their full potential, not alter their natural aloofness or anything like that.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's most probably not bad manners, it's frustration!
> 
> Let him play! Watch so he doesn't dominate or scare other dogs, or that other dogs don't do that to him, but yeah let him play!
> 
> Can you imagine a human child growing up without play? It's part of what is needed to make one whole!!!


right... How do I avoid letting him show dominance over dogs?


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> What do you mean "bad manners"?
> Play fulfills the same rôle in about any mammal species: it's all about simulating as many real life scenarios and behaviors as possible, to become better at being (a dog, a human, a chimp, à cat, etc.) and develop all the skills you need. It's totally necessary to a healthy neurodevelopment, body awareness, proprioception, observation skills and so on.
> So you play fight/flee, you play chase, you play dominant and submissive behaviors, you play anything. And the way a pup plays will of course reflect his individual temperament and the sum of his experiences.
> There can't be poor playing "habits" in a 9 weeks old pup. At such a young age, they don't have set habits, it's all moving and evolving fast. If you let a pup interact freely every day as I do, you'll literally see them progress by the hour. A pup will only do the best he can with the skills he has at that point in time.
> ...


would it be helpful if I set up some playdates with other dogs? Are there any specific dog breeds I should let him play around first?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

My feeling is you're trying to do this upside down - asking your dog to ignore others while you prevent him to get any social life. The correct order is 1) fulfill your dog's primary needs (including social), 2) start training.
To make your "playdates" work (they don't need to be play only though, dogs needs to communicate on a whole lot of levels, not just play), you need to supervise AND pick the right buddies.
So for instance, if your dog tends to be a bit of a bully, very insisting, a bit too intense, etc. Take a healthy dominant same size dog with great social skills, who'll know how to be assertive without over reacting.


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## anzit (May 24, 2021)

Allow him to play! Allow him to play, but keep an eye on him so he doesn't dominate or scare other dogs, or that other dogs don't do the same to him.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

I don't know about bad manners, but my baby boy LOVES to play with other dogs! He has an intense need to meet and play with every dog in existence!! He even likes little dogs and can be so incredibly gentle around them. Just yesterday he laid on the ground just so that an older toy poodle mix with an injured spine could jump on his head. 

Police dogs and the like are TRAINED not to care about other things, but that's while they're being worked. You don't want a drug sniffer getting distracted by the promise of belly rubs, or the dog chasing down a fleeing suspect to suddenly run off to go bark at that other dog out for a walk.

That said, dogs learn their social manners by interacting with each other. Just like people, how would you expect someone to learn how to socialize if they weren't allowed to meet anyone but you? Intervene before it gets too bad, but don't avoid altogether. ESPECIALLY if it's still a puppy you're dealing with.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

When I introduce my GSD to other dogs, we typically go for an offleash walk in a large park with great visibility. Then I watch them the whole time to make sure the play is acceptable. If it gets rough, I intervene. I don't let them get too possessive over toys and such etc. It helps if your dog plays with another well-socialized animal. I taught the command "gentle" with treats and it works with play too. I have to have a "good feeling" about the dog and know the owners/trust them.

Juno plays with other dogs but I'm not raising her to think another dog automatically means a playdate.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dogs don’t play with others outside our home. I had them in daycare when they were young and they didn’t care for it. I have walked them with other dogs occasionally.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Valor plays with lots of dogs. Client dogs, friends of the family, we even go to dog parks regularly while camping. He has good manners and plays appropriately. He will down or recall at any moment. He will ignore other dogs when asked.

I understand both schools of thought, restricting contact with other dogs and teaching good manners with other dogs. My lifestyle precludes the former and encourages the latter. He has also always been good with other dogs barring some over excitement that went away through exposure.

ETA: I don't do any formal introductions or anything. If I bring a dog into my house, I just bring it in and observe. I may keep a drag line on the new dog if I get an idea that it may cause trouble. I have verbal control over my dogs and that's always enough.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I have verbal control over my dogs and that's always enough.


That is missing with most dogs and owners we encounter and the reason I am not going to dog parks or arrange play dates. Even people who succeed in the obedience classes do not have good control outside the building/field or they don't understand dog language.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> That is missing with most dogs and owners we encounter and the reason I am not going to dog parks.


I totally understand that, and I am in no way advocating dog parks for the average GSD owner. I spend more quality time training with Valor than most people find acceptable. Also, not all dog park experiences are created equal. I go at slow times, and get a feel for the dogs that frequent a park at certain times.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> That is missing with most dogs and owners we encounter and the reason I am not going to dog parks or arrange play dates. Even people who succeed in the obedience classes do not have good control outside the building/field or they don't understand dog language.


If I only let my dogs meet with dogs that are 100% obedient, I can cross out most of our current friends.
I have good control over mine as I love training and spend a lot of time working with them. But for most other dogs in my area, they'd never down or recall when they are engaged in a high value activity (like huskies that won't recall from diggin, some hunting dogs that would chase small animals if they get the chance, some won't recall when playing with other dogs, etc.) and well, we don't have a problem. Most of the times we don't even need to use obedience because there's simply no issue... and if there was any issue, I can always recall mine and deal with it.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> If I only let my dogs meet with dogs that are 100% obedient, I can cross out most of our current friends.
> I have good control over mine as I love training and spend a lot of time working with them. But for most other dogs in my area, they'd never down or recall when they are engaged in a high value activity (like huskies that won't recall from diggin, some hunting dogs that would chase small animals if they get the chance, some won't recall when playing with other dogs, etc.) and well, we don't have a problem. Most of the times we don't even need to use obedience because there's simply no issue... and if there was any issue, I can always recall mine and deal with it.


My puppy's recall isn't perfect... he's very stubborn 💀 and I don't trust him off leash yet... should I master these things before he's allowed to play with other dogs? or should I just avoid dog parks (or just keep him on leash and walk around fence of dog park as training)? He's the dominant, aggressive type, when he was a bit smaller and met other dogs, he often wanted to put them in their place, but he's getting a lot better now.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Valor plays with lots of dogs. Client dogs, friends of the family, we even go to dog parks regularly while camping. He has good manners and plays appropriately. He will down or recall at any moment. He will ignore other dogs when asked.
> 
> I understand both schools of thought, restricting contact with other dogs and teaching good manners with other dogs. My lifestyle precludes the former and encourages the latter. He has also always been good with other dogs barring some over excitement that went away through exposure.
> 
> ETA: I don't do any formal introductions or anything. If I bring a dog into my house, I just bring it in and observe. I may keep a drag line on the new dog if I get an idea that it may cause trouble. I have verbal control over my dogs and that's always enough.


Ohh ok
Before covid became a big problem in my province, my puppy went to this play thing where it was just him and a few other puppies in a room together with lots of toys around them. He went twice and really enjoyed it, but he got put into time-out 2 to 3 times because he was annoying the other dogs. His "leave it" still isn't perfect, should I work on that before letting him engage with other dogs?


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> My feeling is you're trying to do this upside down - asking your dog to ignore others while you prevent him to get any social life. The correct order is 1) fulfill your dog's primary needs (including social), 2) start training.
> To make your "playdates" work (they don't need to be play only though, dogs needs to communicate on a whole lot of levels, not just play), you need to supervise AND pick the right buddies.
> So for instance, if your dog tends to be a bit of a bully, very insisting, a bit too intense, etc. Take a healthy dominant same size dog with great social skills, who'll know how to be assertive without over reacting.


My puppy knows how to say hi nicely to passing dogs (command). Sometimes, I allow him to do that, only in our puppy class though.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

anzit said:


> Allow him to play! Allow him to play, but keep an eye on him so he doesn't dominate or scare other dogs, or that other dogs don't do the same to him.


Is there any way to prevent him from doing so? If he does show dominance over other dogs, is there any way I can correct this behaviour?


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> When I introduce my GSD to other dogs, we typically go for an offleash walk in a large park with great visibility. Then I watch them the whole time to make sure the play is acceptable. If it gets rough, I intervene. I don't let them get too possessive over toys and such etc. It helps if your dog plays with another well-socialized animal. I taught the command "gentle" with treats and it works with play too. I have to have a "good feeling" about the dog and know the owners/trust them.
> 
> Juno plays with other dogs but I'm not raising her to think another dog automatically means a playdate.


That's kind of what I'm scared of... My puppy already gets kind of excited when he sees another dog, if I allow him to play with other dogs, will this behaviour worsen?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Ohh ok
> Before covid became a big problem in my province, my puppy went to this play thing where it was just him and a few other puppies in a room together with lots of toys around them. He went twice and really enjoyed it, but he got put into time-out 2 to 3 times because he was annoying the other dogs. His "leave it" still isn't perfect, should I work on that before letting him engage with other dogs?


Absolutely not, don't "wait until" anything. My pups interact freely with other dogs from day one, and of course they don't come with perfect recall. Obedience takes time, social life is everyday!
What you need is the correct setting with adult dogs, socializing is not putting a bunch of pups in a room and let them go crazy... your dog needs to learn from older balanced dogs.
Dogs don't need commands to be dogs, simple as that. We use commands for our convenience, dogs did'nt wait for obedience class to exist to know how to be dogs.
It doesn't need to be over excitement and throwing toys in the air. Just walk together, be together.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Absolutely not, don't "wait until" anything. My pups interact freely with other dogs from day one, and of course they don't come with perfect recall. Obedience takes time, social life is everyday!
> What you need is the correct setting with adult dogs, socializing is not putting a bunch of pups in a room and let them go crazy... your dog needs to learn from older balanced dogs.
> Dogs don't need commands to be dogs, simple as that. We use commands for our convenience, dogs did'nt wait for obedience class to exist to know how to be dogs.
> It doesn't need to be over excitement and throwing toys in the air. Just walk together, be together.
> ...


O yea, I know a golden retriever that's 5years old and been with my puppy since day 1. Sometimes we go on walks together but that's about it. The golden retriever played with my puppy since he was 9 weeks old, but my puppy started to show aggression and wasn't taking turns and the golden retriever was just letting the behaviour slide. The problem is, none of my friends have big dogs, so it's difficult to find adult dogs for him to play with lol


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Yep, golden retrievers tend to be very soft, probably not the best match for now. You don't have these Facebook dog walking groups in your area? You could also hire a trainer who works with his own pack (mine does).


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

watermelonsnekz said:


> That's kind of what I'm scared of... My puppy already gets kind of excited when he sees another dog, if I allow him to play with other dogs, will this behaviour worsen?


You have to choose who your puppy plays with. If you allow him to play with every single dog he sees, then yes, the behaviour will worsen. I agree that play and socialization is important, but so is ignoring people and dogs. It's balance.

I teach my puppy to ignore strange dogs, and to ignore people. She can look, but she cannot run and meet them. She goes to day care once a week with a trainer I trust, where she spends time with dogs that are stable and well-socialized with clear body language. 

I am particularly careful around packmates, because I have seen packmates gang up on outsiders (if allowed) and my two dogs have also shown me that they are capable of ganging up on another dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Are GSDs supposed to be active with other dogs, like play with other dogs?


I really dislike generalizations like this. Some dogs (of any breed) can be quite social with other dogs, others may be more neutral and basically uninterested in other dogs. There is no "supposed to" or "not supposed to", IMO. We've always had social GSDs to varying extents. What's interesting is that over the years we've gone to many meetups with other GSD owners, at the beach or large multi acre off leash parks. When we've had two dogs, they've mostly played with us and each other, as did other pairs from the same household with their owners. All the dogs were near each other, in a big group running around together, and yet also somewhat separate. 

I think social skills are learned to a certain extent, dogs learn to interact and play with other dogs in appropriate ways by interacting and playing with other dogs. But there's a genetic component too - like people, some dogs are just more outgoing than others.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> I am particularly careful around packmates, because I have seen packmates gang up on outsiders (if allowed) and my two dogs have also shown me that they are capable of ganging up on another dog.


I'm glad mine have never done that, I can certainly see how it could be a possibility though. When we took Keefer and Halo to the park, she didn't care about other dogs at all, if we chucked the ball she would run around other dogs without even a glance, as if they were just a shrub or something. If she and Keef were playing and another dog ran over to join in the fun, she'd gently herd it away from him. She was never nasty about it, it's like she was telling them "he's MY buddy, get yer own". One time we'd thrown a ball for them, I think it was a large Orbee on a rope, and another dog came from the side and got to it first. Halo never broke stride, she ran up to the dog, grabbed her ball out of it's mouth, and ran back to us with it. We were dying with laughter, lol.


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## watermelonsnekz (May 24, 2021)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> You have to choose who your puppy plays with. If you allow him to play with every single dog he sees, then yes, the behaviour will worsen. I agree that play and socialization is important, but so is ignoring people and dogs. It's balance.
> 
> I teach my puppy to ignore strange dogs, and to ignore people. She can look, but she cannot run and meet them. She goes to day care once a week with a trainer I trust, where she spends time with dogs that are stable and well-socialized with clear body language.
> 
> I am particularly careful around packmates, because I have seen packmates gang up on outsiders (if allowed) and my two dogs have also shown me that they are capable of ganging up on another dog.


oo okok ya my puppy's pretty good at leaving other people and dogs alone.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I really dislike generalizations like this. Some dogs (of any breed) can be quite social with other dogs, others may be more neutral and basically uninterested in other dogs. There is no "supposed to" or "not supposed to", IMO. We've always had social GSDs to varying extents. What's interesting is that over the years we've gone to many meetups with other GSD owners, at the beach or large multi acre off leash parks. When we've had two dogs, they've mostly played with us and each other, as did other pairs from the same household with their owners. All the dogs were near each other, in a big group running around together, and yet also somewhat separate.
> 
> I think social skills are learned to a certain extent, dogs learn to interact and play with other dogs in appropriate ways by interacting and playing with other dogs. But there's a genetic component too - like people, some dogs are just more outgoing than others.


Very true that breed plays a role, but the whole species is social, so I've always felt that taking the social part out of the dog may be kind of denaturing. (especially when you have a single dog who would then be totally cut off from his own kind)
Maybe also because this is simply what I have always seen, groups of dogs rather than single dogs, and I feel the infinite diversity of how they communicate and what they learn from each other is just beyond what we could ever foresee as humans. You know what's good for your dog to a certain extent, but sometimes your dog knows best and I have seen such incredible evolutions with my foster dogs just through pack walks and interaction. It's kind of humbling and helps put your role a human into perspective. I know absolutely nothing else in the world, and certainly not me, could have done what other dogs have done for them.

I also feel there's this idea that social = goofy Golden retriever running to his "friends", constantly in playful mode, going to "day care", etc. which is a totally humanized vision. Dogs are not kids, they have their own way of being social. Some won't play as adults, but still love to sniff a couple of butts and walk together, you know, kind of doing their own thing but together. Just because a dog doesn't engage with others in ways their owners would expect/like to see doesn't mean they're not social.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Here's Mike Ritland's take on it:


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Rionel said:


> Here's Mike Ritland's take on it:


I watched the whole 3 minutes, waiting for him to talk about a dog's social life, but he never did lol
This video is not about socialization, it's about why being ignorant of dog communication and allowing nose to nose on tense leashes are an issue.
For dogs, frontal/direct approach, face to face and stare signal conflict. If your dogs are on a leash you need to walk side by side or in line, in the same direction. Nose to nose on a leash with unknown dogs is asking for trouble.
If you want your dog to interact in a natural, efficient way, you simply take the leash off.
What I really don't like about this video is that Mike treats his own audience like a bunch of dumbbells.
Of course your dog doesn't need to do nose to nose on leash with any unknown dog you come across... but calling this "why you shouldn't socialize your dog" is a ridiculous shortcut.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

There may definitely be US cultural divisions on these matters that I don't fully understand. I know you have that concept of "day care" for instance that we don't have in my area, and you see a lot of these YT videos where dogs are completely humanized, kind of treated like kids, garden parties, birthday parties, etc.
My feeling is that Mike may be annoyed by such cultural clichés and is just reacting to them.
He's talking about local human culture/habits, he's not saying anything about dogs. I think as a dog trainer, your mission should be to help people understand what they are dealing with, not just fight clichés with more clichés.
But you can only do so when you are aware how influenced you are by your local clichés and able to be critical of how you respond to them, which I am not sure Mike does from what I've heard in that video. "Why you shouldn't let your dog do nose to nose with unknown dogs on a leash" would be the correct title here.
And then he could have talked about how dogs communicate and why frontal means conflict. I think that would be much more educational than just "don't socialize your dogs!"


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I didn't watch the video but the photo and title would grab attention on Y'tube. There is so much competition for viewers that often titles and thumbnails can be a bit of bait and switch.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think there’s a lot of humanizing going on when you say a dog needs a social life or when you compare them to kids. I don’t think dogs “need” to interact with other dogs. There are dogs I let mine play and interact with, but by and large they are to ignore other dogs. I agree with everything said I this video and I think it is very applicable to the subject.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

But what are opinions when you have science though? They are a social species - and with incredible social skills, which is a huge part of why we got so close to them.
A lot of their brain function is related to social interaction.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> But what are opinions when you have science though? They are a social species - and with incredible social skills, which is a huge part of why we got so close to them.
> A lot of their brain function is related to social interaction.


Based on what I know of studies of free ranging and feral dog populations, dogs aren’t all that social among each other naturally. Some dogs enjoy and seek out interaction with others. Some dogs basically hate every other dog they come across.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Based on what I know of studies of free ranging and feral dog populations, dogs aren’t all that social among each other naturally. Some dogs enjoy and seek out interaction with others. Some dogs basically hate every other dog they come across.


If you would share a couple of references, I'm interested. I foster street dogs, some of which have lived a feral life for years, and though they certainly do not behave like a golden retriever pup at day care, they are all highly socially skilled. (Ways more than most household dogs I've met)
I have also travelled in remote bush regions of Australia where aboriginal communities live with whole packs of semi feral dogs, and the least I can say is these guys know how to stay out of trouble and make things work (both with their own kind and in the way they interact with humans)
As a matter of fact, Buck is the only foster dog I had who came from a household, and also the only one who required extensive rehab work because he had been so underexposed to real life experiences - kind of roaming on a farm all day, not seing much - that he couldn't handle them. Part of the issue was a monster reactivity to other dogs and a lack of social intelligence and nuance in the way he would approach and present himself (which he has now compensated for, through formal obedience work on one hand AND through supervised immersion).
I have certainly never seen anything like this in street dogs.
We also have to use common sense and not jump to conclusions too fast when looking at feral dogs. Street life is tough and there's a small number of dogs who will unfortunately have such horrendous experiences (like life threatening) that they may develop a canine equivalent of PTSD. If you live on the streets and one day some random guys attack you and break your teeth, it'll definitely impact your levels of trust in people. That doesn't mean "humans don't need to be social", that means you had a bad experience.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

And so of course, it doesn't mean your dog should generally not be given the opportunity to experience interaction with other dogs.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> If you would share a couple of references, I'm interested. I foster street dogs, some of which have lived a feral life for years, and though they certainly do not behave like a golden retriever pup at day care, they are all highly socially skilled. (Ways more than most household dogs I've met)
> I have also travelled in remote bush regions of Australia where aboriginal communities live with whole packs of semi feral dogs, and the least I can say is these guys know how to stay out of trouble and make things work (both with their own kind and in the way they interact with humans)
> As a matter of fact, Buck is the only foster dog I had who came from a household, and also the only one who required extensive rehab work because he had been so underexposed to real life experiences - kind of roaming on a farm all day, not seing much - that he couldn't handle them. Part of the issue was a monster reactivity to other dogs and a lack of social intelligence and nuance in the way he would approach and present himself (which he has now compensated for, through formal obedience work on one hand AND through supervised immersion).
> I have certainly never seen anything like this in street dogs.
> We also have to use common sense and not jump to conclusions too fast when looking at feral dogs. Street life is tough and there's a small number of dogs who will unfortunately have such horrendous experiences (like life threatening) that they may develop a canine equivalent of PTSD. If you live on the streets and one day some random guys attack you and break your teeth, it'll definitely impact your levels of trust in people. That doesn't mean "humans don't need to be social", that means you had a bad experience.


This one touches on some of it in the beginning.





Feral Dog - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics







www.sciencedirect.com




Here is another.
(PDF) Comparative social ecology of feral dogs and wolves 
Here is another 


https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=press_ebooks


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

At 2:08 Mr. Ritland says _"...they need to be socialized so that they understand what environments are_". That's how I regard socialization - my dog being exposed to environmental stimuli, and able to tolerate those things. I think he's spot on.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Rionel said:


> At 2:08 Mr. Ritland says _"...they need to socialized so that they understand what environments are_". That's how I regard socialization - my dog being exposed to environmental stimuli, and able to tolerate those things. I think he's spot on.


Of course they need to understand environnement but I don't get how that would be opposed to interacting with other dogs ? It seems to me that it's part of a whole.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> This one touches on some of it in the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read the first one and browsed the second using keywords, and couldn't find any mention that would corroborate that dogs "don't need to be social" or anything even remotely close.
The first one says that feral and stray dogs tend to form various types of packs whereas "free ranging" dogs (owned but roaming free) do not tend to form packs.
Which totally makes sense as dogs that have a home and are fed don't need to form packs to find food and protection...
This doesn't mean they aren't social (what association are you making here?)
The free-ranging dog, that's Marley the dog from our local pub. Has been free ranging since he was 5/6 months old (navigates traffic like a pro, super well adapted, knows how to use the grocery shop automatic doors, etc.) and well, of course he doesn't need to join a "pack" because he has owners, food, etc. but he's still social and quite an amazing reader of other dogs' attitudes.

And about your individual experience, I understand that your dogs interact with some other dogs from time to time. Do you think these interactions (or these bonds if they have actually bonded over time) are worthless? Like they don't enrich your dogs' lives in any way?
(sorry for all the questions, I'm just curious exactly how you perceive this)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

By allowing your dogs to "play" with other dogs, unfortunately you have to deal with their owners.


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## Doug4 (Mar 14, 2015)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Are GSDs supposed to be active with other dogs, like play with other dogs?
> 
> I have been trying to avoid any interactions between my 10month old GSD named, and other dogs. Is that the right thing to do? I read somewhere that GSDs are supposed to be aloof and not care about other things, but I'm not sure if this is true or not. My puppy doesn't really mind other dogs, when I tell him to "leave it", he will, though sometimes it takes some prompting. He is starting to ignore smaller dogs since it's not really fun to him, but for dog's his size, he stares a bit until he decides to listen to me, but it's getting a lot better since I take him to places with a lot of dogs to do training.
> 
> I wasn't aware of poor playing habits when I first got him so when he was around 9-11 weeks old, he developed some poor playing habits according to my trainer (not taking turns, not stopping when other dogs are telling him to). Ever since then, I've been afraid to allow him to play with other dogs. What should I do?


Wow I can’t believe you have this fog and don’t even take time to read about them. One of the most important things you can do with any dog or human is socializing. It late to start which makes it more difficult but can be done. Crazy I hope you start learning before it to late. I know I’m a jerk but the truth hurts.


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## Doug4 (Mar 14, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I totally understand that, and I am in no way advocating dog parks for the average GSD owner. I spend more quality time training with Valor than most people find acceptable. Also, not all dog park experiences are created equal. I go at slow times, and get a feel for the dogs that frequent a park at certain times.


Why????? GSD are no different than any other bread. I’m in my seventies snd me and wife have own one at least fifty years and I had them 
Before I met her. This is my 8th and she is 7 years old . I never ever had issues with my dogs like I read on here. They were all pure breed and home taught with love and just talking. We had three kids and all the neighbors kids would ask if they could take them for walks. Never ever one issue. But I’m sorry to say this is my last as I can’t keep up the exercising they need. All I ask is folks understand the bread. They are the most loving companion you will have.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Doug4 said:


> Why????? GSD are no different than any other bread I never ever had issues with my dogs like I read on here. They were all pure breed and home taught with love and just talking. We had three kids and all the neighbors kids would ask if they could take them for walks. Never ever one issue.


Since you asked "Why?", I can think of a few reasons. 
1.Many people come to the forum to get answers about their dogs' behavior and to get help with training. I am sure that many don't have issues and you don't hear from them.
2. You were lucky or
3. You may have forgotten the issues with passed dogs. The ones in Heaven have turned into angels.
4. In "those days" dogs grew up in community and not isolated and were better socially. Nobody had to sign a disclaimer to take them for a walk.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

That young female BC couldn't be approached by either me or other dogs 12 hours before this pic was taken (so panicked and reactive that her owners couldn't take her to places, which is why they needed my services while they were on vacation). The next day she was swimming in the ocean with the others dogs like she had done that her all life.










Hiking together, that is Buck before I officially adopted him. His previous owners had given up on him because he was so reactive that it made him "unmanageable".









Sniffing together. The brown mutt is Olfy, a street dog with slight food aggression trauma, who would originally charge any dog getting to close to his nose.









Just another foster pup learning to heel though imitation










Hutch the rebellious pup learning to calm down

















All incredibly valuable experiences that don't happen without help from other dogs.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Is there any way to prevent him from doing so? If he does show dominance over other dogs, is there any way I can correct this behaviour?


The trainer who gives me a hand once in a while with my foster dogs works with his own pack of 10 dogs : a couple of Newfies one of which is an official water rescue dog, 2 GSDs and a Malinois, two of which are competition dogs, his older GSD male being an official "chien de sécurité". (it's like obedience + bite work + tactical sessions where the dog will jump through a car window to get the target, etc.)
A Husky mix who's great at policing youngsters, a rehabilitated Amstaff terrier who used to be aggressive, his recently adopted Aussie who also was given away after biting, and finally a Yorkie and a Chihuahua.
Aside from being a trainer, he works in zootherapy in retirement homes and he's hired by the French postal service to raise awareness about dog aggression and train postmen to stay safe when doing their job. His dogs are part of everything he does. He knows exactly how to match profiles to get the best out of it and make your dog progress.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Doug4 said:


> Why????? GSD are no different than any other bread. I’m in my seventies snd me and wife have own one at least fifty years and I had them
> Before I met her. This is my 8th and she is 7 years old . I never ever had issues with my dogs like I read on here. They were all pure breed and home taught with love and just talking. We had three kids and all the neighbors kids would ask if they could take them for walks. Never ever one issue. But I’m sorry to say this is my last as I can’t keep up the exercising they need. All I ask is folks understand the bread. They are the most loving companion you will have.


If you are of the opinion that all dog breeds are of similar temperament and that all examples of each of those breeds are of similar temperament, I'm not sure we can have a meaningful conversation.

I am a trainer and I use my dogs to help other dogs become stable. I completely believe in the power of a pack of dogs. I do not believe that a dog park is a place where you typically find an actual pack of dogs. It is a much different social situation than a bunch of dogs that live together. 

An example. This picture is of 4 dogs in my home. A Cane Corso that was surrendered to a shelter to be put down for animal and human aggression (bite history), a foster that went through 6 rescue foster homes because he destroyed everything, a pit mix that was kicked off a military base for attacking and injuring several dogs, and a military dog with a history of handler aggression, animal aggression and 12 street bites. If these 4 dogs met at a dog park as strangers, at least one of them would die. In this case, the 3 experienced, stable dogs helped the foster learn what being a good dog (IMO) is all about.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Um...who is the military dog with the history of handler aggression, animal aggression and 12 street bites? 😏


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> By allowing your dogs to "play" with other dogs, unfortunately you have to deal with their owners.


LOL
True... is small talk a hassle to you?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How do you know that? 😅


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

My technique > hu-hmm hu-hmm... hu-hmm lol (most of the time you don't even have to make sentences)
Anyway, all I can do when surrounded by dogs, is watch the dogs... I'm too busy doing that to have a real conversation.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A pack of dog is only functional when they live together IMO. When I had three of my own, it took only a few hours and probably less (has been a few years ago), before an incoming foster dog fitted in. I introduced her to the leader of the group and when he "approved" the others just followed. There was no "oh, your poor thing, just love will take care of it" from my dogs. None of that! She just had to live by the rules from the first moment. If people would apply that same kind of "welcome", adoptions would be more successful.
Susan Clothier once stated the following: "a new dog has three questions: who is in charge, what are the rules and where do I fit in?" Normal sane dogs answer these questions very clearly and we need to do this as well; it is their right.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

So true... human beliefs create issues.
And yes, a "pack" of dogs is different from one to one contact, group walks etc. but I still think various types of interaction can be beneficial, even if you don't have a pack at home. Most dogs in my neighborhood have a dense network and they do bond with each other to some extent (you can see that bumping into dogs they know on daily walks is satisfying tp them) even though they don't live in the same household. I also love the diversity - breeds, sizes, temperaments...- and the knowledge it brings. From the old grumpy Yorshire terrier who doesn't like his butt sniffed too long, to the Husky who doesn't give a **** about balls but loves digging, to how a Beagle sounds when on a track, speedy Whippets, slow giant breeds, etc. all of them bring valuable experiences and new information.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Um...who is the military dog with the history of handler aggression, animal aggression and 12 street bites? 😏


Fama's happy face


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Are GSDs supposed to be active with other dogs, like play with other dogs?
> 
> I have been trying to avoid any interactions between my 10month old GSD named, and other dogs. Is that the right thing to do? I read somewhere that GSDs are supposed to be aloof and not care about other things, but I'm not sure if this is true or not. My puppy doesn't really mind other dogs, when I tell him to "leave it", he will, though sometimes it takes some prompting. He is starting to ignore smaller dogs since it's not really fun to him, but for dog's his size, he stares a bit until he decides to listen to me, but it's getting a lot better since I take him to places with a lot of dogs to do training.
> 
> I wasn't aware of poor playing habits when I first got him so when he was around 9-11 weeks old, he developed some poor playing habits according to my trainer (not taking turns, not stopping when other dogs are telling him to). Ever since then, I've been afraid to allow him to play with other dogs. What should I do?


Yes, it is true that German Shepherds are supposed to be aloof.

Sounds like you're doing well and I'm not sure why you'd want to change things.

German Shepherds do NOT need to play with other dogs to be happy.

_"What should I do?" - _It depends on your lifestyle and what kind of relationship you want with your dog. If I were you, I'd keep doing what you're doing as that is what most pros do too. Unless you're experienced like @David Winners, I think most people create more problems for themselves and make their lives unnecessarily complicated.

Here are a couple of videos that may give you some more ideas:











Good Luck


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

German Shepherds* DO NOT* need to play with other dogs to be happy:









Do Dogs Love People More Than They Love Other Dogs?


Data suggests that we have bred dogs to love people.




www.psychologytoday.com













(PDF) Behavioral and Glucocorticoid Responses of Adult Domestic Dogs (Canis familiaris) to Companionship and Social Separation


PDF | Removal of 1 member of a long-standing pair of adult domestic dog (Canis familiaris) kennel mates from the home run for 4 hr had no effect on the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> But what are opinions when you have science though? They are a social species - and with incredible social skills, which is a huge part of why we got so close to them.
> A lot of their brain function is related to social interaction.


German Shepherds should be interacting with the owner. That's what they were bred for.

They were NOT bred to be social butterflies. 

Properly bred German Shepherd is an "ISTP"


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> My feeling is you're trying to do this upside down - asking your dog to ignore others while you prevent him to get any social life. The correct order is 1) fulfill your dog's primary needs (including social), 2) start training.
> To make your "playdates" work (they don't need to be play only though, dogs needs to communicate on a whole lot of levels, not just play), you need to supervise AND pick the right buddies.
> So for instance, if your dog tends to be a bit of a bully, very insisting, a bit too intense, etc. Take a healthy dominant same size dog with great social skills, who'll know how to be assertive without over reacting.


The social life should be with the owner and its own pack.

German Shepherds DO NOT need doggy day care, "play dates" and all this other nonsense.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> What I really don't like about this video is that Mike treats his own audience like a bunch of dumbbells.


What I like about his video is that he's right. 

Most dog owners are "dumbbells" lol.

Even I can be a "dumbbell" lol.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Of course they need to understand environnement but I don't get how that would be opposed to interacting with other dogs ? It seems to me that it's part of a whole.


The dog doesn't need other dogs it needs an owner that is a leader. The owner should be the one playing with the dog to create a supernatural bond. 

I'm not saying letting your dog play with other dogs is bad, I'm saying it is unnecessary and many times a detriment to your own relationship with the dog.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Doug4 said:


> GSD are no different than any other bread.





Doug4 said:


> All I ask is folks understand the bread.


smh









Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?


If your herding dog reacts badly to sporting breeds, often Labs in particular, you’re not alone. “Herding” can mean anything from gathering a few sheep in the Scottish highlands to managing thousands of sheep in Australia to taking on an uncooperative … Continue reading →




sarahwilsondogexpert.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

@Chloé&Buck

I gotta say, that is an amazing picture with your dogs and that mountainous background.

Very nice!


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> LOL
> True... is small talk a hassle to you?


Most introverts hate small talk


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> The social life should be with the owner and its own pack.
> 
> German Shepherds DO NOT need doggy day care, "play dates" and all this other nonsense.


Hi Jen,

I feel that in the end, you're simply choosing beliefs that are most comfortable for you. I wish we could meet and simply go hike together (if you visit France one of these days, feel free lol), because the power of conversation is limited, the power of experience is a lot stronger.
The beliefs some of you guys have expressed here are very shocking to me (but in a good way too, it's good to read about totally different visions), because it's so far from what I experience every day. Turning a GSD into a robot-like workaholic is easy, does that mean it should be your only goal with your dog? My vision and experience is that when you have extreme selection traits in a dog, it can quickly turn into an obsessive mess if you don't balance them.
My boy Buck? Well, I could have made him totally autistic within a few months had it been my desire. Totally socially disabled, obsessive dog, unable to even "see" what's going on around him, too busy obsessing over a ball or simply over "me me me". But I don't want a dog who's unable to use his brain for anything but work/obedience, and needs me to get a ball out or speak commands to compensate for his complete lack of deeper balance.
More the exact contrary actually, I have a dog who has strong selected tendencies, I'm going to use them, but also balance them. Let him know there's a time for work, and a time to simply be a dog. A time to use his brain for obedience, and a time to use his brain to make sense of the world around him and cultivate intelligence, visual intelligence, olfactory intelligence, social intelligence...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

On a more down'to-earth note, social intelligence could simply save your dog's (or other dogs') life/ass.es.
Do you want your dog equipped for "obedience only" or also equipped for real life/unexpected scenarios? For a perfect world or for the real world?
I understand "control" is a huge thing for some GSD owners, but you simply can't control everything in life. On a few occasions I had free ranging dogs gang up on mine (this thing Juno was talking about) and gosh, I was so glad they had enough experience to know how to naturally defuse conflict instead of just sitting there watching me. Because sending a single stray dog (or human fearful individuals) away is a thing, good luck with a bunch of angry shepherds...
You keep your dog in sit/stay by your side? You're not going to make it. Keep calm and let them do the talking, most of the time there won't even be a fight!
There'll be some growling, a little dominance dance (chin on your neck, no my chin on your neck, no my chin on your neck) and voilà, enjoy the rest of your walk  
The most ironic thing about the human fears expressed here is that the more you avoid real life scenarios, the more you disable your dog. And pushed to an extreme, of course it's going to create dangerous dogs and situations...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> @Chloé&Buck
> 
> I gotta say, that is an amazing picture with your dogs and that mountainous background.
> 
> Very nice!


Thanks, these are the Cantal volcanoes! It is really amazing for trekking and there are a lot of natural sources which means you don't have to carry all these additional gallons of drinking water on you.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> The social life should be with the owner and its own pack.
> 
> German Shepherds DO NOT need doggy day care, "play dates" and all this other nonsense.


I do totally agree that you don't necessarily need "day care" though, and nothing I've said is related to day care as this concept is foreign to me. My dogs have never been to any doggy day care and I was not even sure what exactly it was when I registered here.
I wouldn't go on to say this is "nonsense" for others though, as I don't know their dogs, their needs or their environments.
And I can imagine that if you live in a society where dogs don't have any natural outlets to learn social skills, then you may need to create artificial ones, that may not be as good as a more natural approach but may still be beneficial to some.
What I think may be detrimental though as I said earlier is just throwing a bunch of pups in a room and stop there. Pups can be allowed to play with other pups but they also need contact with balanced adults.
The problem when nothing comes naturally anymore is that you have to recreate various artificial situations to make a whole... and well, I understand in some environments it can be more difficult.
For me it's easy really, I just open my front door and go for a walk. I know I'll come across a lot of dogs, youngsters, adults, various sizes, temperaments ad breeds...
The only thing you need is understand dog communication, and from there you make sure you get the best out of your environment.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> smh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Breeding doesn't take the dog out of the dog... it only shapes some preexisting instincts.
Why see instincts as limitations instead of looking into how you can make them work for you?
If you don't want your dog to herd other dogs, you let him know. I don't get how you could speak so high of their intelligence and still believe they can't distinguish between situations.
Buck actually has strong herding tendencies and it's totally manageable and doesn't prevent him from interacting with any other breed.
These behaviors (stop excitement/movement, claim personal space) may even come handy in some situations. Shepherds are often great at calming down excited dogs. At the sports club I went to when my girl was younger there was a couple of adult GSDs who would stop over excitement that way, I've also seen them break up fights.
There was never an issue with these dogs, who certainly interacted with dozens other dogs on a daily basis. They were just excellent at what they were doing.
You know, these dogs who "dislike" over excitement and "rude" behavior are actually the ones I look for when I have pups. I don't care they don't look "nice" from a human perspective, I only care about what they teach from a canine perspective.
And to be honest, I'm happy my neighbors don't think the way you do, because I'd hate loosing the shepherd portion of our community. I love these dogs, exactly the way they are, and they do help us in many ways.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> smh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is so true! At the advice of a trainer I don't use anymore, I took my WL to daycare. When I picked him up, they couldn’t locate him on their camera. They finally told me he spent most of the day hiding under a bench to keep away from the Lab and Golden puppies who ”just wanted to play.”  I never took him back. I’ve considered getting a Lab next and decided against it because he would hate a puppy like that in his face all the time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

@Chloé&Buck I have spent time in Holland and Germany. The dog (people) culture is very different here in the states, particularly in urban areas.

If a dog is seen running free, most people will call animal control and have them picked up. Owner pays a fine.

I have my dog off leash most of the time, which is kind of illegal. The law states I must have a leash on the dog or other means of control. I believe I can prove other means of control if necessary. Just this past week we were camping. Many times a day, I would leave the camper with my dog off leash and walk to the hiking trails or around the campground. It's amazing how many people get offended that my dog is off leash. He is friendly or aloof to strangers and other animals. He doesn't bother anyone at all. Doesn't bark at other dogs that are barking at him. There is no cause for offence, but it upsets them that I don't have a leash on a well behaved dog.

It is uncommon for people here to spend time with their dogs other than a short walk. Most of my client dogs are "fixed" through relationship, exercise and socialization.

It is hard to put into words just how different the dog culture is over here. In the middle east, there are large packs of feral dogs that just get along. In Korea, dogs roam the streets and people are nice to them. There was a small pack that lived right outside the base where I was stationed. I used to go out on Saturday mornings and play with them.

This is to say that I understand where you are coming from, and the possibilities to raise dogs in this manner are scarce in the US.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I feel that in the end, you're simply choosing beliefs that are most comfortable for you.


Actually, I cited a study on page three that _"shows just how domesticated our pet dogs have become and how their orientation seems to have shifted more towards humans than to other dogs."_

_








(PDF) Behavioral and Glucocorticoid Responses of Adult Domestic Dogs (Canis familiaris) to Companionship and Social Separation


PDF | Removal of 1 member of a long-standing pair of adult domestic dog (Canis familiaris) kennel mates from the home run for 4 hr had no effect on the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




_



Chloé&Buck said:


> But what are opinions when you have science though?


I'm just curious if you have any literature that can support your opinions ?






Chloé&Buck said:


> Very true that breed plays a role, but the whole species is social, so I've always felt that taking the social part out of the dog may be kind of denaturing. (especially when you have a single dog who would then be totally cut off from his own kind)





Chloé&Buck said:


> All pups need a whole lot of interaction and responses from their peers to ultimately develop smart communication skills and be the best version of themselves.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

15 Dog Breeds That Prefer Humans Over Other Dogs


As humans we often feel that every dog should love other dogs – after all, they’re dogs! However, there are several breeds that actually prefer human company to other canines. If you are looking for a dog that will choose you over a romp in the dog park, you may want to consider one of these...




iheartdogs.com


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Jen84 said:


> Actually, I cited a study on page three that _"shows just how domesticated our pet dogs have become and how their orientation seems to have shifted more towards humans than to other dogs."_
> 
> _
> 
> ...


Honestly, what "documentation" is required to watch and observe the obvious? All animals, or mammals at least, learn manners and correct behavior by interacting and sparring with other animals of their species. It's normal, natural, and very important to normal development.

Seems to me you are giving a lot of credence to questionable sources. Just look at the animal world! It's pretty clear really.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Honestly, what "documentation" is required to watch and observe the obvious? All animals, or mammals at least, learn manners and correct behavior by interacting and sparring with other animals of their species. It's normal, natural, and very important to normal development.
> 
> Seems to me you are giving a lot of credence to questionable sources. Just look at the animal world! It's pretty clear really.


I am saying that a German Shepherd working dog does NOT need to socialize with other dogs to be happy or "whole". It is not what "is most comfortable for me", it is science and my experience from raising two German Shepherds in completely opposite ways one of which is what you guys described.

When you say things like:_ "Can you imagine a human child growing up without play? It's part of what is needed to make one whole!!! "_

You are suggesting that German Shepherd needs to play with other dogs to make it whole and that human play is inadequate to satisfy their social needs_. _Well, I don't believe this. I am open minded but it is going to take more than a few posters opinions to change it.

I mean perhaps what you guys are saying could be true for a particular breed of dog, but in my experience, and from my studies, this is not true for working line German Shepherd.




tim_s_adams said:


> It's most probably not bad manners, it's frustration!
> 
> Let him play! Watch so he doesn't dominate or scare other dogs, or that other dogs don't do that to him, but yeah let him play!
> 
> Can you imagine a human child growing up without play? It's part of what is needed to make one whole!!!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> All animals, or mammals at least, learn manners and correct behavior by interacting and sparring with other animals of their species. It's normal, natural, and very important to normal development.


This is true for juveniles. Plenty of adult mammals do not play with bother adults. Plenty of canine species do not associate with others as adults outside of breeding. Every time two adults encounter each other it isn’t going to be happy fun time. Often times it will be a fight. When two dame sex dogs that have a more dominant, less social temperament meet, it’s usually a lot more than posturing to determine position. Oftentimes it isn’t about establishing pack dynamics, but driving away the stranger. The type of temperament I look for in a dog isn’t going to lend itself to quick fights either. When I point out those feral and stray studies, one thing glossed over is most of those dogs spend their time solitary, not with each other. All dogs don’t need social interactions with other dogs, especially unknown dogs.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@Jen84 Are you really asking me to link "literature" here, to indicate that dogs are a social species with great adaptation skills? Dogs have an incredible intraspecies communication palette, how disconnected from them do you have to be to need a study to prove this? Just look at them!
If you are really interested in research though, you can surely find dozens of good reads on these subjects (ethology, neurosciences). You are lucky, as a lot of it is available in your language.
Linking some trivial articles and making it look like they support your view isn't my idea of a conversation. Again, herding instincts and bad practices in some "day care" facilities that you have been to don't "prove" that GSDs in general should be allowed NO contact/interaction with other dogs. (neither do caps and underline)
Why not share your thoughts and experiences? And if you have actually read the posts you are quoting, why do you keep boiling it down to "day care"/"play dates"/"social butterflies" and more clichés? Social interaction doesn't mean "play only", it's a whole package, from greeting, butt sniffs, to mimicry/mock behaviors to more formal behaviors, to the occasional conflict with agonistic postures, appeasement signals, to basic affiliation behaviors like mouth licking + following, etc. (there are just too many to list and that's what I enjoy observing every day)

Look at some of this guy's pictures for instance (Entre Hommes & Chiens, Frédéric Guérin, Éducateur canin - Zoothérapeute), see how many breeds are interacting? Shepherds (GSD, Groenandael, White Swiss...), Amstaff and Staffordshire Bull terriers, Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, hounds, labs, mutts... Look at their facial expressions and body language. Dogs interact in a huge variety of ways.
Do you see "nothing" on such pics?
Fetching balls and obeying commands is a completely different thing. It doesn't use/activate the same skill set in a canid.
And I think it's really not doing justice to their amazing intelligence to limit their life to one-to-one interaction with a human being, just because you can do it to them. Our dogs have such amazing potential, don't you want to explore it? What is putting you off and how could you believe you need to cut off your dog from everything else to get his focus or "bond" with him?
This FB guy's dogs are amongst the most well-behaved, connected and obedient I have ever met.
My dogs meet dozens other dogs on our hikes, and it fascinates me how smartly they adapt to whatever comes their way. And believe me, they do learn every step of the way, for a whole lifetime, just like us. Social learning doesn't "stop" at primary socialization phase.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

From my experience observing pet dogs they seem to be interested in each other.In my younger years dogs were allowed to roam in my neighborhood and they all got along fine interacting with each other.Now I'm in a rural area where some dogs are still allowed to roam and it's not unusual for one to stop by to visit with my dogs. After some posturing and checking each other out they may play for a few moments or just hang out for a while before going on their way.
David is correct in that leash laws and many areas in the U.S. make natural interactions difficult.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Here's a short clip in which a bunch of strays get a little overexcited in a street of Istanbul. 



You can see they are being pushy with that Kangal (chasing, blocking him, etc.) and at some point he gets pissed off and lets them know, then the dogs calm down and go on with their day.
Are Kangals "bred to be social butterflies"? Of course not, neither do they need to go to day care. Doesn't prevent them to interact, learn and communicate efficiently and smartly.
I don't know for you, but for me we're talking about the most fascinating facets of dogs here. It's not optional or superfluous to me, more like the main reason why I love being surrounded by dogs.

A few clips of African painted dogs (love them!)













YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




www.youtube.com




Anything looks familiar?






























































Who's who 
You switch their pajamas, would you still be able to tell?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

They are all different and I would think it’s what they were brought up being accustomed to and their social ability level, regular access to stable dogs, etc. There is joy out of watching dogs play is it necessary no, it can be beneficial exercise wise if dogs are around other stable dogs. If bad experiences outweigh good experiences it can cause dog agression issues.

I have not had one German shepherd or dog that ever wanted to meet the any other dogs outside their pack. Growing up I always had dogs off leash. My first German shepherd , Karat, a working line did not even interact with the dogs he lived with or the cats. For a time he lived with me at my moms house who had a collie and two American Eskimo’s all female. He completely ignored them I have never really seen that before. It was as if they did not exist. It seemed to upset my collie when she tried to interact friendly with him. The cats seem to enjoy him ignoring them. It was the reason my then boyfriend’ landlord told him he could not keep the dog their because it would not play with her lab but completely ignored him not that he did anything wrong but it seemed to bother them for some reason. The dogs I have now do enjoy very much enjoy each other max and Luna enjoy playing with each other and Max who was only exposed to a grumpy chihuahua and my moms dog who ran him over seemed to very much know how to play and teach a young pup under his wing so I observed it’s very natural even without much direct interaction. All my German shepherds prefer owner pack interaction then dogs they don’t know. When at beach or park or outings.

Max not liking other dogs outside his pack but now ignoring. I knew he would enjoy any dog I brought home once adjusted whether be pup or dog.

Friday before Memorial Day expecting the beach to still be crowded was empty just seagulls and helicopters. Max having the best time with his people.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CPb0hBHBCLE/


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> @Chloé&Buck I have spent time in Holland and Germany. The dog (people) culture is very different here in the states, particularly in urban areas.
> 
> If a dog is seen running free, most people will call animal control and have them picked up. Owner pays a fine.
> 
> ...


True, thanks for the insight David. Really interesting actually, I love to hear about what "dog culture" looks like around the world, it certainly varies a lot from a place to another.
I also love to observe stray groups, you can learn so much just by watching them! The way you work is very similar to what our local trainer does.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> They are all different and I would think it’s what they were brought up being accustomed to and their social ability level, regular access to stable dogs, etc. There is joy out of watching dogs play is it necessary no, it can be beneficial exercise wise if dogs are around other stable dogs. If bad experiences outweigh good experiences it can cause dog agression issues.
> 
> I have not had one German shepherd or dog that ever wanted to meet the any other dogs outside their pack. Growing up I always had dogs off leash. My first German shepherd , Karat, a working line did not even interact with the dogs he lived with or the cats. For a time he lived with me at my moms house who had a collie and two American Eskimo’s all female. He completely ignored them I have never really seen that before. It was as if they did not exist. It seemed to upset my collie when she tried to interact friendly with him. The cats seem to enjoy him ignoring them. It was the reason my then boyfriend’ landlord told him he could not keep the dog their because it would not play with her lab but completely ignored him not that he did anything wrong but it seemed to bother them for some reason. The dogs I have now do enjoy very much enjoy each other max and Luna enjoy playing with each other and Max who was only exposed to a grumpy chihuahua and my moms dog who ran him over seemed to very much know how to play and teach a young pup under his wing so I observed it’s very natural even without much direct interaction. All my German shepherds prefer owner pack interaction then dogs they don’t know. When at beach or park or outings.
> 
> ...


I have still never met a dog who would ignore other dogs to the point it would look as if he couldn't even see them (outside from work of course... if you get a ball out, my dog can also be blind that way, as a lot of working breeds can be)
But should I see a dog naturally act that way... well I wouldn't have a problem with that. I only have a problem with taking it for a fact that GSDs should never interact freely with other dogs.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Chloé&Buck Yes it was interesting to see a dog not in drive that ignored dogs they even lived with it to that degree. Since the dog was two years old when we brought him home, I originally thought he was trained that way. I think it was more of just a natural tendency though. 

I think the issue comes with the increase of issues with unknown dogs and the bad experiences that can occur. The amount of access to stable dog’s to balance it all out is often a challenge especially to those not immersed in the dog world is why it is often heard.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> @Chloé&Buck I think the issue comes with the increase of issues with unknown dogs and the bad experiences that can occur. The amount of access to stable dog’s to balance it all out is often a challenge especially to those not immersed in the dog world.


Oh OK, so would you say most dogs you come across on a daily basis are unstable?
Sounds like a vicious circle then.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@chloe&buck On a daily basis unknown dogs are not much of an acknowledgement or much of a thought to even think to record. Most dogs we come across throughout the years that are off leash are often dogs that charge us in the neighborhood. Dogs in classes were always taught to be ignored no interactions. Dogs in beaches and parks , store , towns I have to say are always on leashes.

I would always recommend one on one socializing pups to dogs that are already known to be stable dogs to have the best experience and outcome and set a solid foundation for future interactions versus a dog park that is a small fenced area with unknown dogs and unknown owners. It is also important to acknowledge if you pup/ dog is social or not to other dogs when venturing to a dog park type setting or any setting.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

watermelonsnekz said:


> My puppy's recall isn't perfect... he's very stubborn 💀 and I don't trust him off leash yet... should I master these things before he's allowed to play with other dogs? or should I just avoid dog parks (or just keep him on leash and walk around fence of dog park as training)? He's the dominant, aggressive type, when he was a bit smaller and met other dogs, he often wanted to put them in their place, but he's getting a lot better now.


If you have a "stubborn, dominant aggressive type" that you don't trust off leash, why the heck would you go to a dog park? 

What will you do if your dog starts a dog fight?
What will you do if your getting-better dominant aggressive type dog goes to take a round out of another dog?
What if he meets a really aggressive dog that squares up on him?

Ask anyone who regularly frequents dog parks if the have seen a dog fight or near dog fight....I think you'll get 90%+ affirmative. And dogs aren't the only issue there, it's usually the idiot owners as well.

"down, come, off" are mandatory for the dog park imo since very few others will have that down


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I really dislike generalizations like this. Some dogs (of any breed) can be quite social with other dogs, others may be more neutral and basically uninterested in other dogs. There is no "supposed to" or "not supposed to", IMO. We've always had social GSDs to varying extents. What's interesting is that over the years we've gone to many meetups with other GSD owners, at the beach or large multi acre off leash parks. When we've had two dogs, they've mostly played with us and each other, as did other pairs from the same household with their owners. All the dogs were near each other, in a big group running around together, and yet also somewhat separate.
> 
> I think social skills are learned to a certain extent, dogs learn to interact and play with other dogs in appropriate ways by interacting and playing with other dogs. But there's a genetic component too - like people, some dogs are just more outgoing than others.


And not just different within the same breed but different personalities within the same litter. It's called a generalization for a reason


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Oh OK, so would you say most dogs you come across on a daily basis are unstable?
> Sounds like a vicious circle then.


You weren't addressing me, but I think because when circumstances prevent dogs from being free to act like dogs they can get frustrated and sometimes neurotic/unstable.By circumstances I mean leash laws and regulations.Also in the U.S. animal aggressive (genetically) breeds have become popular unfortunately.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think present day there is more social pressure to have super dog social dogs. There are dog parks and doggie daycares that give social dogs more outlets. There is though social restraints but I do not see it as such a bad thing at all compared to the latter. Growing up in the 80’s there was much more harm to dogs roaming off leash being dogs and not fixed being dumped and abandoned. “It’s a dogs life” is a negative phrase mostly pertains to dogs that are being dogs and free to roam in European countries. I would think they would trade that for a leash and a good home in a second.

- just a warning some of these photos are real upsetting of these homeless dogs.








The stray dogs in Europe


As Animal friends we stand united - although we mention some countries - we must remember that there are good people in every country and that many reputable NGOs are working tenaciously to help the...



www.esdaw-eu.eu


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

For the readers among us, _The Hidden Life of Dogs, _by Elizabeth Marshall, is a fascinating and enlightening book. The author took an anthropological approach (think lady in khaki shorts going to live among an African tribe) with her own dog, most of which were huskies. They ended up becoming what most of us would think of as feral. They also had rich and full social lives, full of interactions and explorations and developments. Reading this book showed me how stunted and limited the social lives of most suburban American dogs really are.

That being said, one must adapt to the environment one finds oneself in (or leave). What I have found is that roughly half of all dogs we meet on walks snarl, lunge, or bark at Jupiter. This is a large contrast to my observations at the dog park (I took Jupiter nearly every day from about 3 - 8 months), where altercations of that sort were rare. 

One thing you notice is that, if you have a GSD, it's always your fault/your dog's fault. The chihuahua or yorkie who started it is a precious, harmless baby who is thought of as cute and innocent. 

I am not sure that Jupiter would ever have made a great dog park dog. When we went, he mostly ignored other dogs and just wanted to play fetch all day. Once in a blue moon, he'd wrestle with one of his few playmates. He certainly never ran about in the middle scrum with all the huskies, and I don't know that I've ever seen him play bow to another dog.

He used to be able to peaceably meet other dogs on-leash, but over time, he has become less accepting. He also remembers dogs that threatened him in the past and seems to have built up a mental list. Now, he'll bark or lunge at many of them--which will always be considered my fault, since I'm the one with the big black scary GSD.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think it’s interesting to see the different genetic traits each breed has and how it effects their perceptions. Huskies are super social dogs they are bred to be super social dogs and bred to be independent to make tough decisions if need be. It is a breed that works side by side with other dogs daily on a sled team working together. Those social traits are heavily cemented in a husky. Huskies are a breed that thrives in a dog park setting along with labradors, golden retrievers as you will see mostly of. German shepherds are bred to protect the pack of sheep from wolves and which transferred to their pack of people from outsiders who may cause harm. They are a breed that is bred to work one on one with there person. Just knowing this you can see the possible social challenges that can arise in dog park situations with German shepherds or dogs with protective instincts unless they had some extra social traits. People choose their breed for certain reasons that go along with their interests and priorities and most often other breeds are not often understood. As long as the owner understands the dog they have and it’s comfort levels.

Dogs are domesticated and purebreds are bred with specific purposes and specific traits.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

watermelonsnekz said:


> Are GSDs supposed to be active with other dogs, like play with other dogs?





Cassidy's Mom said:


> I really dislike generalizations like this.





WNGD said:


> And not just different within the same breed but different personalities within the same litter. It's called a generalization for a reason


Um, duh? Did you misunderstand what I was saying or are you just pretending to? It's the "supposed to" part of the statement I was addressing. I don't believe that _any_ breed is supposed to like or not like other dogs. Your dog may or may not adhere to any particular trait, even those that are common in a breed, or considered desirous in that breed, and that's perfectly okay. My dogs are "supposed to" be exactly who and what they are.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

CactusWren said:


> For the readers among us, _The Hidden Life of Dogs, _by Elizabeth Marshall, is a fascinating and enlightening book. The author took an anthropological approach (think lady in khaki shorts going to live among an African tribe) with her own dog, most of which were huskies. They ended up becoming what most of us would think of as feral. They also had rich and full social lives, full of interactions and explorations and developments. Reading this book showed me how stunted and limited the social lives of most suburban American dogs really are.
> 
> That being said, one must adapt to the environment one finds oneself in (or leave). What I have found is that roughly half of all dogs we meet on walks snarl, lunge, or bark at Jupiter. This is a large contrast to my observations at the dog park (I took Jupiter nearly every day from about 3 - 8 months), where altercations of that sort were rare.
> 
> ...


The book sounds cool, I'm adding it to my list 
Something you just said and I have read elsewhere in this post surprises me though: when you say your dog doesn't really care about other dogs because he "just wants to play fetch".
I mean, I know as humans we often like to think of fetching and other such activities as "games", but obviously to a working breed, this is work. They definitely switch to working mode as soon as you get a ball/ritualized thing out (or just give them commands), with that focus and intensity we all know.
So how would you expect a GSD to do anything but obsess over the ball if you keep carrying a ball everywhere you go?
If you throw a ball/toy, your dog is going to fetch, fetch, and fetch. It's definitely the only thing he's going to do and I doubt having clowns dancing polka around him would stop him from fetching.
It's not because it's the only thing that's "good" for him, it's because his brain is wired that way. It activates reward pathways in the brain just like an addictive drug, of course the dog's gonna want to use again lol Doesn't mean it's the only thing you should let him do.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I see my dog's needs as varied, working with me is one type of activity, but it should definitely not be the only thing in his life.
If I have a type of dog who naturally tends to be hyper-focused and hyper-specific, I'm not going to push that to an extreme by throwing a ball or giving commands 24h and let him live in that bubble, totally cut off from the rest of the world. I'm rather going to balance all these needs and make sure to also build the deeper foundation my dog needs to be all-round stable.
I personally would never get a ball out at a group walk. The ball may be convenient to get your dog's focus back in half a sec when you need to, but it's otherwise unnecessary and detrimental in social situations.
Buck is actually so intense on the ball that he can "forget" to relieve himself as long as he's "working". If it's that intense that the dog forgets to pee, of course he's not going to explore and greet other dogs when he's in that mode... The point of hiking, walking with other dogs, etc. is to chill, sniff, do what he has to do you know. Not be a little ball fetching robot.
If I want him to fetch, do nose work or any one-to-one activity with me, I choose my moments. And in these moments I don't expect him to care about anything else, and I don't see it a proof that "he doesn't need anything else" (cause he does). It's just called working VS not working, nothing more.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dogs who have a strong drive for the ball and it is their favorite game it’s an instinct that motivational drive it’s part of who they are. It is either there or it is not. It certainly doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they enjoy or the only thing they do with their people. They certainly can enjoy whatever you find them to enjoy as that varies also and that would be for you to observe, tap into and give opportunities to do so. If a German shepherd enjoys playing with other unknown dogs there is nothing wrong with that but it’s not part of many gsd nature and there is no harm it being aware of it. I did not read this entire thread but I don’t see anywhere that people are suggesting tossing balls on hikes 24 - 7. I know for one when Max is getting one on one time which he does enjoy more then anything, I play his favorite game at the beach with his ball. The two males that I have/had would carrying their ball around after in a very proud way after to wind down the game. When the game is over it’s over the ball is put away in a back pack and on to do something else. I have to enjoy myself and I am sure other people do as well and that does not include tossing balls in the heat or any weather all day. I do make certain that we all have a good time doing all the things we all enjoy and part of that is also walks, hikes and swims.



































I


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@Jenny720 I do play the ball too and I'm not saying you shouldn't, sorry if I made it sound that way. (I was only talking about that "prefers the ball so doesn't like dogs" association)
I just think it's also my role to give my dogs a chance to experience various things, including when it requires a little effort from me.
So when someone asks if they should give an 11 month old dog some occasions to interact, my answer is yes, make an effort, learn more about dogs, find compatible profiles for your dog if you need to and see for yourself (rather than "no GSDs do NOT NEED this, period")


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

All of my shepherds where the same regards to not wanting to interact with unknown dogs outside the pack one being more truly aloof then the next but would rather enjoy playing games with ball, and or hikes , swimming, walks do nothing etc. within their circle. Personally Knowing some nice dogs to socialize with your pup on walks hikes is the route to go versus doggy day cares and small area fenced off dog parks as for reasons I mentioned earlier.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> All of my shepherds where the same regards to not wanting to interact with unknown dogs outside the pack one being more truly aloof then the next but would rather enjoy playing games with ball, and or hikes , swimming, walks do nothing etc. within their circle. Personally Knowing some nice dogs to socialize with your pup on walks hikes is the route to go versus doggy day cares and small area fenced off dog parks as for reasons I mentioned earlier.


Well I wouldn't personally know about day care as I said, but from what I have read here, it's clear that the staff in some of these facilities have no clue how to supervise dogs... (by the way, don't you need some professional background to run one of these "doggy day care" places in the US?)
Also, why would you want to leave your pup in one of these places and just walk away? When introducing a pup to other dogs you should be there to observe and guide - it's the whole point, not just put a bunch of pups in a room, grab pop corn and carelessly check on them once in a while through a cam (what the ****?!)
Sorry for insisting but I was shocked when I read LuvShepherd's story, and I am even more shocked you would take such an event as proof that your dog is incompatible with other dogs. It doesn't mean anything other than these practices are bad.

From what you're saying Jenny, I feel our visions are not actually that far apart, we may just have different definitions of "socialization". I tried to make it clear that a dog with good social skills isn't a dog who's going to run up to every unknown dog like a baby cocker spaniel, it has nothing to do with this really, it's a complete misconception to think that's what social skills should look like in an adult dog. To me socialization means that a dog who has experienced a wide variety of situations and contacts with other dogs is better equipped for life. You know, the main reason why social species have to acquire such skills is simply to avoid unnecessary conflicts and stay alive, it's quite simple really, doesn't mean they should behave like puppies...
From what I have read about that 11 months old GSD, and given how scarce the contacts have been, it's quite obvious this dog hasn't had the opportunity to learn and adapt.
This could get him and his owner in trouble one of these days.
Of course you can always train your dog to be "quiet"/ignore stuff, but I'd rather have a socially smart quiet dog, than a socially dumb quiet dog who, in the eventuality of unexpected approach/contact, will not know any nuance but fight/flight.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

"_There is a misinterpretation on the social exposure to people and dogs . No contact need be made . The young dog is given exposure and the handler provides the model for behaviour. Nothing to see here , carry on , you keep on walking.
In a breed where there is supposed to be stranger aloofness, neutrality , I think it is wrong to have a great deal , especially of over the top gooey , attention and interaction with admiring strangers.
You put them in stress , they get an adrenaline rush, they want the adrenaline rush ?? like young males that jump off cliffs or bungee jump, or day traders that thrive on risk , or dogs that are ball junkies.
Then they crave, they are denied , then you have frustration , which they fight against and so on it goes.
Selective , managed meetings, fine , brief and then on you go " - _@carmspack









rethinking "popular" early socialization


taking it back to early socialization -- Bequavious asked "So what do you suggest for these people? Perhaps a dog is genetically predisposed to low frustration tolerance or perhaps it has been developed in him (whether purposefully or not), but do you think there are ways to increase that...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> So when someone asks if they should give an 11 month old dog some occasions to interact, my answer is yes, make an effort, learn more about dogs, find compatible profiles for your dog if you need to and see for yourself (rather than "no GSDs do NOT NEED this, period")


It depends on your lifestyle and what you want the dog for.

As I mentioned, I have raised a German Shepherd in the way you describe and one that is leading a very isolated life with almost zero exposure to dogs and people other than from a distance.

I can say with confidence that a well bred working line German Shepherd does NOT need to socialize with other dogs period.

Have you raised a well bred German Shepherd with little social contact with dogs or people to "see for yourself" ?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> It depends on your lifestyle and what you want the dog for.
> 
> As I mentioned, I have raised a German Shepherd in the way you describe and one that is leading a very isolated life with almost zero exposure to dogs and people other than from a distance.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you still haven't shared a single piece of personnal rationale though... 
Raised your current dog in isolation and think it's great? Well tell us why then.
Would love to know why you would give such advice to a complete stranger too.
I haven't done "well bred dogs" yet, I'm more into rescues. My trainer's shepherds are "well bred" though, he'd jump out of his chair if he could read this.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Even if we leave the dog's individual well-being and safety aside, let's see it from the man-dog relationship perspective if you like.
From my experience, nuance in the communication you develop with your dog during off leash walks and free interactions hugely reinforce dog-owner trust and in particular the dog's receptivity to your slightest signals, mood, body language, etc.
When I got Buck I jokingly called him "the beast of Gevaudan", because he was just so rough, sprinting straight ahead in all directions, trying to scare other dogs - and even people - away as he simply didn't know how to deal with situations, always in red alert mode, ears up, loud, fast and furious ball of nerves.
Part of my job has been to work one-on-one with him and teach him how to keep cool, etc. but another important part of my job also consisted in letting him learn through freedom and contact with other dogs, which became possible with an increasing number of dogs as we progressed. 
That way he acquired both obedience + first-hand experience. He has acquired much nuance in the way he approaches other dogs, and in the process, our dog-human communication also became increasingly fine-tuned. (now during free interaction in a group of other dogs, he'll very often check in with me, make eye contact, wait for guidance when he's unsure, ears go back to capt any signal from me, etc.)
If they get a little overexcited, "tsh tsh", "oh oh easy" is enough to calm them down, you don't need to rush to your dog to leash him or ask him to ignore or heel, see what I mean?
Thresholds and increments in communication appear, etc. (I know I'm not revealing anything to you there but just making my point)
There's this world of fine-tuned communication, having an on-going "conversation" - verbal and non verbal - with your dog from a distance without using any physical means, etc. that's incredibly beneficial to man-dog relationship in my opinion. How could you experience this if you just keep avoiding situations or raise a dog with "zero exposure" @Jen84?

I wish I could understand your position but you're not really helping me here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Chloé&Buck The most popular thing to do in the USA with ones dog is to go to dog parks and daycares.( this has been over the course of recent 15 years) Not everyone knows people who have dogs and it has become a way for dog owners to connect or a place to have their dogs get exercise. It is where all the bad bully type habits occur and dogs pay that forward and are practiced often because many owners do not train their dogs or pay attention and or think that dogs should work things out mentality in regards to many dog parks. (Not all dog parks are the same or people that go there are the same) These types of scenarios do not lend itself well to breeds as the German shepherd that are known to have aggression, higher level of defensive traits, and not to be genetically social but more genetically controlling which levels all vary. Another issues people are not aware of the stress/comfort levels of their pup and push it causing issues. 

I myself , have had no experience with day cares or dog parks just stories I heard and or witnessed. My parents took their dog as a pup to the dog park who was repeatedly bullied and unbeknownst to me had become a bully herself and ran over Max as a real young pup. Along with dogs charging off leash in the neighborhood where his only interactions with dogs was ignoring dogs in a very large obedience class. My mistake was not making a point to balance that bad puppy experience with some good experiences. Although, I am in a place where I am happy where we are.

As for dogs charging off leashes in the neighborhood dogs are often territorial of their property and the owners have that same mentality of let them work it out as they come aggressively barreling across the street and owners look on with crazy admiration. This mentality in my opinion and what I have noticed compared to past years adds to the social decline all around as it’s one sided.

When dogs roaming free here in many states there were always many problems I have seen them myself growing up. Present date we have had states like Texas who has a enormous stray dog /feral issues. There were a pack of dogs that killed someone. They are not without issue.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Ah I see @Jenny720, it helps understand why some of you guys may be really annoyed by that "trend".
Sounds more like a cultural trend than anything else really, many US people seem to idealize dogs as "fur babies" and at the same they don't take charge at all... I agree it's a peculiar pet culture.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Well, let's celebrate at least none of us in into this


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Chloé&Buck That is really creative, adorable and looks like fun I have to say.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Ah I see @Jenny720, it helps understand why some of you guys may be really annoyed by that "trend".
> Sounds more like a cultural trend than anything else really, many US people seem to idealize dogs as "fur babies" and at the same they don't take charge at all... I agree it's a peculiar pet culture.


You don't think they do that in France lol :

_"Brissard says too many people think a pet is like a stuffed animal that can be thrown away when they're tired of it." _









In France, The (Abandoned) Dog Days Of Summer


Every summer, French vacationers abandon an estimated 100,000 pets as people head off on long vacations. They say it's too expensive to find someone to care for the animals, and they can't bring them along. A campaign against the practice is under way.




www.npr.org





And from what I understand, France dumps more pets per capita than Canada.

_"The French have the unfortunate distinction of being the European "champions" for abandoning pets that have become too cumbersome for their summer trips."_









Why the French are 'European champions' at abandoning pets


Tens of thousands of pets are abandoned every summer in France. What's behind this sad phenomenon?



www.bbc.com


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Last warning Jen


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Given that states in the US have leash laws, and the context that a leash attached dog is tied to his resource (his handler), I think this guy makes good points:


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Rionel said:


> Given that states in the US have leash laws, and the context that a leash attached dog is tied to his resource (his handler), I think this guy makes good points:


I completely understand that off leash dogs can be an issue, and I've experienced it myself as this was one of the main challenges I faced back when I was working on Buck's leash reactivity. But you know... we still made it and reached our goals. And all things considered, a bit of challenge only makes you smarter at navigating the environment.
Should things always go exactly as planned, where would be the challenge?

Though I think it's important to educate people and raise awareness on all dog matters, I also think it's wise to acknowledge that you can't discipline "the rest of the world" and make it perfectly suited to your needs, that's just not going to happen. You simply have to adapt to your environment and make the best out of it.
Stay positive and take the challenges as they come instead of sticking to a rigid attitude, to overcome challenges you need to be flexible, anticipate, adapt, learn.
The odds can go against you but sometimes they can be in your favor too, use your opportunities. Chat with other owners in your area, adapt to your local life and habits instead of getting annoyed and resentful. If you know the local habits well enough, you'll know how to adapt, and where to go depending on what you want to find/do with your dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think being flexible and relaxed is most important to help move on from any situation. Each situation is often a learning one. Your dog is picking up on all your energy as well. Being resentful or aggravated is not helpful and adds to things but it is a process and it’s very important to understand the fact that it’s okay if your dog does not need to like approaching charging dogs, and the fact that most often no dog does get hurt, is when one can actually begin to relax. There are people who think all dogs should welcome their dog in their space whole heartedly-no matter how the dog approaches and if they do not the dog should be kept locked away especially a German shepherd. It takes much process and practice to navigate the waters in the best ways that are beneficial to your individual dog.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> There are people who think all dogs should welcome their dog in their space whole heartedly-no matter how the dog approaches


Isn't that just being an adult dog though?
We have Brittany spaniels, retrievers, huskies, bully breeds, mutts and shepherds of all sorts around here and most adults do not like their personal space invaded by any strange dog, that's just a normal adult dog attitude.
Thinking a dog should be locked away because they don't like their space invaded is ignorance of how adult dogs behave when given a chance to learn and grow. I guess some over-protective behavior from the owners can create issues though, with dogs who never learn to behave in an acceptable way in the dog "code of conduct" so to speak.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Joyce, a Brittany spaniel we often hang out with, is actually one of the most assertive males I have ever met!
Hates frontal/excited approaches, doesn't want other dogs in his face and will let them know very efficiently.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When you have dogs off leashes and allowed to do whatever it is they like as it’s easier for the owner as they do most often have no control it is what you have to contend with. In addition some people do not understand many dogs especially German shepherds really have no want or need to interact with dogs they don’t know.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@Jenny720 do you have friends come over with their dogs or do you visit friends who have dogs?
(You currently have two GSDs right?)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

No I had dogs my entire life and it was never a thought ever for friends to bring their dogs. I do have lots of family /friends over all the time or the kids friends over and many are not dog people. Dogs playing together was never a focus for me. I grew up with many of my dogs off leash often as well accompanying on bike rides etc. Times have changed though and there is a switch in focus though for many to have dogs interact with one another which is all well and good if you have dogs that enjoy this.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

OK, kind of the contrary for me, most people I know take their dogs about everywhere with them unless there is a good reason not to (like places where dogs are banned of course).
In the summer I'll often go for a little road trip and visit various friends in various regions, a lot of them also have dogs.
A lot of the elders around here have dogs, and they'll walk them, stop to buy baguette, then grab a drink at the local coffee. Not unusual to see whole tables of locals with their dogs chilling next to them on the terrace.
This is at the pub, you can see the owner's Bullpei at the back.









That same Bullpei on one of his visits at our farm, just having a mud bath. He' such a character, cracks me up.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sounds like a great time. Great pics! I take my dogs to many places as well just most of my family and friends do not have dogs. There are few outdoor restaurants one can take dogs to in nice weather. I don’t to see to many dogs at outdoor restaurants but many seems to be enjoying the beaches.There is a dog app of dog friendly places. We have a local icecream shop that always hands out free ice cream to the dogs. Many weekends include the dogs often in outings. Beaches although often crowded is my favorite place to take them in the summer.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I take my dog everywhere. Virtually everyone that owns a dog that visits my house brings their dog(s). I'm all about it. 

It is just not the dog culture in this country.


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