# My GSD attacked a child



## dex33 (Jan 22, 2014)

Details:
I have a male GSD, 1,5 years old, called Roi, living in an apartment. He spends most of the time with people, I gave him ton of time (most of my day) attention and love for whole of his life. I trained him all the basic obedience skills, and socialized him properly with people, dogs and children. For most of the part he is incredible with everyone (both people and dogs). He is outside for walks for atleast 2-3 hours a day. I never beat him. I try to pet him and make him affectionate as much as I can. But this is the second time he attacks a child.

First time happened while he was young. I used to take him to the elementary school backyard nearby my flat whenever it was empty. I used to throw him sticks so he does fetch & return and get's properly tired, plus it's the single most favorite thing for him, his eyes almost glow when you throw him stuff. But from the very early on he showed strong possession for things. For example, sometimes he would growl at me if I tried to take the stick from his mouth when he doesn't want to let it fall to the ground on command.

So there I am throwing stick for him, and a kid (about 12 y/o) from the nearby building stands by me and watches amusingly. Roi (the dog) returns the stick, lets it fall on the ground and waits for me to pick it up. Suddenly, before i could say anything, the kid hastily tries picking the stick up (having no idea how dogs could react, considering him inferior being) and Roi in a blink of an eye bites him by the hand. Hand starts bleeding, nothing serious, but still from then on I decided to never throw sticks or anything for him, to try to minimize his extreme possessiveness for things, just in case something like that doesn't happen again. (since that was the only time he showed aggression)

That was almost 7 months ago. Since then, he is great with kids, whenever he's on a leash and kids want to pet him, I allow it, and it goes great. He licks their hands, puts his head to their chest so they can pet him and scratch him and so on.

Then, today, this happens:

He needed to go outside to pee, so we went down. In front of my building, there is a grass patch where he always pees. I unleash him there just for a minute so he does both his number one and number two (because otherwise he doesn't want to do it, or he wags me in random directions which is frustrating), so I usually unleash him till he finishes it, then leash him again.

But this time I was talking on the phone, and suddenly this kid comes out of nowhere, running like mad and screaming (he was playing - running away from his friends) but still running and screaming towards me. And again, before I could react, Roi jumps in front of me, and starts growling and biting him by his jacket without any warning. Again, nothing serious, it was a thick winter jacket, and he wasn't actually trying to hurt him (it looked more like he tried to stop him in his place, like he was guarding me). 

No wound this time, but I really want to know how I can train him not to be like that. I understand that he just used his guarding instinct but still...

I know most of you will probably say "use muzzles", but I really would like to make him okay without it, because I believe muzzles are really a last resort, and really restrict dog (he loves picking up stuff from the ground like branches and carrying them.)

Any ideas, advices, thoughts?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The stick...sounds like he was going for the stick and not the kid.

The screaming kid...not sure that he did act inappropriately given the situation.

However, YOU need to take charge and not let him. Up your obedience. Up your recall and leave it. Up your guard in public.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

You know your dog resource guards. You should have worked on this behavior a long time ago. Work on it now. Trade him a higher value treat. Praise him for giving the stick, toy, whatever to you. There is a lot of information here on correcting resource guarding.

Step up your management of this dog. Do not allow your dog off leash. Teach him to potty on leash. And yes - muzzle him. IMO what happened was your fault. You allowed your dog to be off leash. You weren't paying attention to him. You were on the phone. Up your obedience. You need to have a rock solid recall on your dog. Children need to be protected and so does your dog. That is your job.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

dex33 said:


> Details:
> I have a male GSD, 1,5 years old, called Roi, living in an apartment. He spends most of the time with people, I gave him ton of time (most of my day) attention and love for whole of his life. I trained him all the basic obedience skills, and socialized him properly with people, dogs and children. For most of the part he is incredible with everyone (both people and dogs). He is outside for walks for atleast 2-3 hours a day. I never beat him, try to pet him and make him affectionate as much as I can. But this is the second time he attacks a child.
> 
> First time happened while he was young. I used to take him to the elementary school backyard nearby my flat whenever it was empty. I used to throw him sticks so he does fetch & return and get's properly tired. But from the very early on he showed strong possession for things. For example, sometimes he would growl at me if I tried to take the stick from his mouth when he doesn't want to let it fall to the ground on command.
> ...


A lot of people are going to come on giving advice like, muzzling and environmental management. A lot will also say this is fear, bad genetics, resource guarding, etc...Bottom line, no one on the internet is going to be able to truly help you. The internet and forums like this can help with basic obedience stuff, trying to potty train, teaching specific commands, looking for breeders, etc....It really isn't the place to get advice on aggression problems, especially with a dog that has bit twice, both times CHILDREN, and one time drawing blood. You do not have the control you think you have. You need to consult a trainer with *experience in aggression*.

The part in bold in your OP, or anytime anyone explains away a situation (specifically one of aggression and attacks on *children*) using words/phrases like that is always concerning to me. It tells me the OP doesn't understand the gravity of the situation. You have a large breed dog, that is now shown you it will bite children. You clearly can't read the dog's body language, until you contact a trainer, you must manage the dog. Whether that's muzzles, limiting where you take the dog, NEVER...I repeat NEVER, taking the dog off leash, etc...it's up to you. My advice remains, regardless of how "nice he is most of the time" is to seek a trainer with experience in dog aggression and dog's that have bit. If I was the kids parents I went have went after you in every way possible. You're lucky, that can ruin your life and get the dog destroyed.

Don't mean to be harsh, I am always more blunt and harsh when kids are involved. I hate that behavior not being addressed by a professional immediately. Good Luck.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I just read DaniFani's post and honestly that is the best advice you will get.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I just adopted a GSD that I've found out the hard way WILL bite - he bit my boss (lucky me). I IMMEDIATELY bought a basket muzzle and he will wear it in public until he proves me to me that he is over that behavior completely, which may never happen. You are so lucky that nobody has called on you yet... biting a child is a big deal in the states eyes, provoked or not. It is a bummer to have to use a muzzle and I don't enjoy doing it with my own dog, but I understand that I made the decision to keep a dog that has the potential to be a huge liability. Get in training classes with someone who specializes in resource guarding/aggression and start working on the issue. It really helps to have structured training and a nonbiased party involved in it (the trainer).


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> The stick...sounds like he was going for the stick and not the kid.
> 
> *The screaming kid...not sure that he did act inappropriately given the situation.
> *
> However, YOU need to take charge and not let him. Up your obedience. Up your recall and leave it. Up your guard in public.


If my dog lunged out and *bit* a *child* just because it ran up or by screaming, we'd have huge issues. I can't believe that would be suggested as being "appropriate," regardless of the situation. A child isn't a threat. Period. If the child hadn't had a winter coat on, blood could have been drawn. Again.

Also this>>"Sounds like he was going for the stick." Why in the world would you jump to that conclusion, at best it's correct, but at worst the dog was, in fact, guarding the stick from the child, bit the child, and now OP may not do anything about it because someone on an internet said he was "probably going for this stick." Who cares...blood was drawn....behavior needs to be witnessed and assessed by someone in person, with experience in training and "fixing" mis-placed aggression.

That's my problem with internet advice in this situation. Worse case scenario, the dog was truly being aggressive, and because of some things said on the internet, the owner/handler isn't going to go the great lengths to ensure it doesn't happen again. Is going to continue to let the guard down, and allow a bit to happen for the *third* time. I mean, how many times does it take. Jeesh. I'm sorry...but we're talking about *kids* here. 

I agree with your last statement. Along with getting help.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I should add, I of course believe obedience needs to be upped big time. However, no offense OP, I question one's ability to get *reliable* obedience on a dog like this (given the history of two bites and lack of control/management), all on his own with no guidance from a successful professional. That's why my first and only advice is to consult a trainer *with experience in this*. Reliable obedience would be an outcome of seeking a professional for the problem.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Agree with DaniFani. You need someone who knows what they are doing to evaluate this dog in person and work with you. We can't do this over the internet. It sounds like your dog does not have enough limits and knows it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Go with Dani's advice. 

With high prey drive dogs I've found I usually have to inoculate against stuff like that. Zebu *had* a habit of tracking running kids with his eyes. Was clear he was going into prey drive and had he not been leashed at the time he'd have probably gone into pursuit. Was to be expected. Dogs with high prey drive go after stuff that looks like prey unless made to realize it is a bad idea. We worked on it specifically.

Might be prey drive might be resource guarding but without seeing it first hand it is all conjecture. Go see a trainer that has experience with this kind of thing. In the meantime manage the dog better when kids are around. Even a highly trained dog off leash is a calculated risk. No trained dog behavior is 100% reliable.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Kids' sudden movements can spook a dog. I think my dog thinks they are aliens. If I have my dog off leash in a legal off leash area and I see any children, I leash her. Not that she ever ran and attacked them, I just am always vigilant and want to err on the side of caution. I never let children pet her on our walks.

That being said, I would have our dog evaluated by a trainer experienced in GSDs. My dog has had opportunities to bite, but she never does, not even recently when a dog attacked her, the dog was not injured at all. Hopefully your dog can learn bite inhibition.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

"The stick...sounds like he was going for the stick and not the kid."

I agree here, this was not an intentional bite, just over excitement for the stick. My pup grabbed a ball too fast and got my hand, he was all puppy eyes when he realized what happened. But this could not be the case as I don't know the dog at all. Would use cation. 

As for the second, since he is still a puppy and there are kids, he should not be off leash. I only let Zeus of leash in the dog park and if people bring kids there and ignore the sign on the gate, than they are stupid. 

Work on "leave it", "no" and talk to a trainer.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> If my dog lunged out and *bit* a *child* just because it ran up or by screaming, we'd have huge issues. I can't believe that would be suggested as being "appropriate," regardless of the situation. A child isn't a threat. Period. If the child hadn't had a winter coat on, blood could have been drawn. Again.
> 
> Also this>>"Sounds like he was going for the stick." Why in the world would you jump to that conclusion, at best it's correct, but at worst the dog was, in fact, guarding the stick from the child, bit the child, and now OP may not do anything about it because someone on an internet said he was "probably going for this stick." Who cares...blood was drawn....behavior needs to be witnessed and assessed by someone in person, with experience in training and "fixing" mis-placed aggression.
> 
> ...


Yup. When I was a kid we had a dog, a big rottie/lab mix (we think). First time he bit me it was on the hand/arm during play. I was about 5 years old. Second time was similar, I think maybe I was near his food. My parents took it semi-seriously but thought it was just nipping during play or me getting too close, and though both bites drew blood neither was "serious." But they were wrong. The third time he bit me was on the face. Upper teeth *just* missed my eye, lower set of teeth got my jaw. I needed quite a few stitches and my dad (hard as nails law enforcement type) to this day can't quite talk about having to take me to the hospital and stand by while they strapped me down to stitch me up. Luckily our dog didn't get my eye, luckily the scars, although still visible (probably more to me than anyone else) aren't bad at all considering what could have been. But my parents thinking it was just playing or being a little food protective allowed for the aggression to get worse and almost end very badly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sound advise has already been given so I just say what my motto is. My guy is rock solid on the streets around strangers,vet office in lines with other dogs etc. No darting at cats or fast moving creatures, his default is to hold station period unless told unwise.

But children, I have no idea? He's never dealt with them and I never put him in any situation which he has not been trained for.

If he "needed" to be around kids I would proof him. He'd wear a soft muzzle around kids until I Knew he was safe around kids. Actually I think he did get petted by a child a long time ago. I had him on a leash wearing a fabric Blk muzzle /BLK GSD and a mom and her little girl wanted to pet him, I said OK because he was muzzled (only time I allowed him to be petted for years) the kid was petting him and he was fine..no reaction slight wag of the tale. The mom noticed the muzzle and freaked grabbed her kid and moved along! He did fine but a single episode of good behavior isn't enough for me.

The other night we were out for a walk and a little girl noticed "the prancing doggie" he has Wobblers so he moves like Scobby Doo, she's moving towards us and I swiftly move away! Now I'm probably the rude A Hole with the dancing GSD in that household but I don't gamble with anyone's safety!

I treat kids like Dog Parks...just say no! 

Non child household...full disclosure


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*" I decided to never throw sticks or anything for him, to try to minimize his extreme possessiveness for things"

*I am not suggesting right or wrong but just an opinion. Read up on the "right of ownership" regarding a dog and whether your action cited above would have any affect on his "extreme possessiveness". I doubt by simply never throwing sticks changed his mentality regarding "right of ownership".

My bitch definitely expressed and vied for 1st place on her "possessions" and I stopped it cold as soon as I saw this behavior exhibited as a pup. I took opportunity at that time for two reasons.....One because she was a pup and much easier for me to take the repercussions ( getting bit or snapped at ) and two, it was the proper time to introduce her to, who was who in the relationship. I proceeded to utilize certain moments to claim my position...such as feeding times, playing with toys, giving her a bone and basically I was at will, whenever I chose to put my face in her food bowl while she was eating or take a toy from her jaws..as well as the bones she was enjoying. My bitch knows that her "right of ownership" is contingent on my wishes not hers.

Watch how dogs interact and "protect" their possessions, it's an education. A dog whether standing or lying down with their bone, toy or stick placed between their front legs is in a zone which speaks volumes and a more possessive dog will start to display certain behavior in regards to whether anyone has a chance to take it from them without some attitude. I would suggest that if your dog has an understanding of "who is who" there is no reason that you cannot take this item from them but if the dog sees itself as the rightful owner, you might encounter some "attitude"....to say the least.

How does any of this relate to your situation regarding the protective behavior your dog exhibited? Here's my opinion....your dog is the leader in your relationship hence it protects you and decides what is a threat, separate of your wishes. I have tried to create an environment with my bitch that I PROTECT her...it's just that simple...it is the bottom line of being the leader hence I can claim whatever I want without protest from her...such as a stick, food etc. To some this might sound strong-armed but a dog craves leadership and if you do not provide the leadership than your dog will gladly accept the role and the consequences which come from this might lead to exactly what you are concerned about. 

I am not the least bit concerned that my bitch will not protect me when the time comes as it will be blatantly obvious to her when it has come to that point. Yes, my gal does all the posturing, alarm barking etc. but when I evaluate the situation at hand and take my position as leader, she takes her position since I am in charge and she is protected. 

I simply believe your dog has taken the leadership role and gets to determine what is a 'threat" and reacts accordingly since he has no option.......currently.

Good luck and I am sure you will work through this situation and BOTH of you will benefit from the changes in the relationship.

SuperG


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sookie said:


> Yup. When I was a kid we had a dog, a big rottie/lab mix (we think). First time he bit me it was on the hand/arm during play. I was about 5 years old. Second time was similar, I think maybe I was near his food. My parents took it semi-seriously but thought it was just nipping during play or me getting too close, and though both bites drew blood neither was "serious." But they were wrong. The third time he bit me was on the face. Upper teeth *just* missed my eye, lower set of teeth got my jaw. I needed quite a few stitches and my dad (hard as nails law enforcement type) to this day can't quite talk about having to take me to the hospital and stand by while they strapped me down to stitch me up. Luckily our dog didn't get my eye, luckily the scars, although still visible (probably more to me than anyone else) aren't bad at all considering what could have been. But my parents thinking it was just playing or being a little food protective allowed for the aggression to get worse and almost end very badly.


Thank you for sharing this story. Too often it takes a "serious" bite to wake people up. All the warning signs, sometimes even bites, are ignored or explained away. My husband also has scars on one side of his face from two GSD's. He was 4, standing on a fence at farmer's house (friend of his dads) and the two shepherds stalked and attacked when he tried to climb off the fence. My husband had to get over 20 stitches, and part of his eye is a slightly different color from the rest because of where a tooth nicked it. Those dogs had "nipped" family members before. However, it wasn't bad enough that anything was done. People explained it away, blaming the kid, dog's nature, etc....

That's why I'm particularly passionate in this area, and get heated when people say, "oh he probably didn't mean to bite the kid." Especially people who are reading a story, after the fact, and have never met the dog "irl" before. It always amazes me that some people's go to is to say it isn't a big deal or it probably wasn't on purpose. Why wouldn't you error on the side of caution and assume it was resource guarding or a serious bite and advise in that fashion? 

Downplaying something, especially when the first line of action was to come to the internet, and not seek a professional, usually leads to inaction on the part of OP. Imho, OP already did the least invasive thing, went to the internet instead of seeking a trainer. I believe, when a bite is involved, the only thing that should encouraged is to come to terms with the gravity of the situation, and encourage to consult someone in real life with experience.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DaniFani said:


> If my dog lunged out and *bit* a *child* just because it ran up or by screaming, we'd have huge issues. I can't believe that would be suggested as being "appropriate," regardless of the situation. A child isn't a threat. Period. If the child hadn't had a winter coat on, blood could have been drawn. Again.
> 
> Also this>>"Sounds like he was going for the stick." Why in the world would you jump to that conclusion, at best it's correct, but at worst the dog was, in fact, guarding the stick from the child, bit the child, and now OP may not do anything about it because someone on an internet said he was "probably going for this stick." Who cares...blood was drawn....behavior needs to be witnessed and assessed by someone in person, with experience in training and "fixing" mis-placed aggression.
> 
> ...


I did not say it was appropriate that he bit the kid. I swear you just like to pick things apart and argue. Excuse me for responding while I am working. Should know better because I don't have time to write a book to explain what I was thinking like many others do.

I have zero tolerance for a dog that attacks children. ZERO. The only "advice" I ever give with aggression stories on here, because I've had aggressive dogs, is get a trainer.

My response was to the OP's position that the kid was screaming and yelling and running towards them. That is not normal behavior and the dog knows it. How old is the kid? Does the OP state this anywhere? Is this kid a young teen? Or is it a 5 yr old? There is a huge difference in what is appropriate depending on the age, size and what could be perceived as a threat. 

If I'm standing there minding my own business and a young teen comes at me screaming, given that young teens are often the size of small adults, then I am not going to fault my dog for reacting. I wasn't there so I'm not going to say this was inappropriate as we are missing to many facts. Maybe you have those facts and I just missed them. Do you know the age of the "kid" in this story?

However, the dog better have excellent recall and an excellent out. If the owner can't immediately call the dog off then the dog has no business being off lead in public.

The stick...because the dog only bit his hand and I've had it happen many times with my dog. I'm not stating a "known" fact. I'm giving an opinion based on what was presented.

Is there a reason you always go on the attack with people?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

If it was just the biting when reaching for the stick, I might say you just have a high drive dog who was in the moment and made a mistake.

But the growling is something different. This sounds like resource guarding and it is NOT acceptable behavior. I can appreciate that a kid running up screaming would upset a dog, but biting in response is not ok.

You've two times had your dog bite a child, you need to take every precaution with this dog to make sure it doesn't happen again. The next time could land you in really hot water and be the end of your dog.

Get a professional involved immediately, you need some intensive training done with this dog, and if you see a kid close by, you need to remove your dog from the situation.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> The stick...sounds like he was going for the stick and not the kid.
> 
> The screaming kid..*.not sure that he did act inappropriately given the situation.*
> 
> However, YOU need to take charge and not let him. Up your obedience. Up your recall and leave it. Up your guard in public.


That was your exact quote...."not sure that he acted inappropriately." How am I supposed to assume that means anything other than, "he acted appropriately." You said he didn't act inappropriately....so....what the heck would anyone assume when they read that? 

Some people around here take any disagreeing as bullying or arguing. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, don't post on a forum. I told you I completely agree with your last statement. I agree with a lot of people around here, and get pm's constantly from other's saying how thin skinned, and unable to hear disagreements some of you guys are, and that they agree with me, but that it's worthless to try and explain anything to some people around here without them getting extremely defensive. It's not going to stop me from disagreeing.

OP said the kid was running around playing with other kids, chasing each other and screaming....most teenagers I know aren't out playing tag. If OP comes on and says it was a teenager/borderline adult, it still wouldn't much change my opinion. My strong suspicion, when he says "my dog attacked a *child*" he means a young *child* not teenager, but you're right....I will still error on the side of caution and advise getting a trainer, nothing more. 

Lots came on and agreed with my advice. This is a potentially dangerous situation, imo (and that of plenty of others) it isn't the time to explain away behavior like you did. If you didn't mean to "explain away" the behavior, that's fine. However, in your very short "he probably was going for the stick" and "I don't know that it was inappropriate" explanations, I just honestly don't know how else anyone would take that than you saying it wasn't necessarily inappropriate.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Again, nothing serious, it was a thick winter jacket, and he wasn't actually trying to hurt him


I find this pretty humorous. How do you think the dog would bite the kid if he didn't have his jacket on?

Need to be extra vigilant with a dog like that. Many dogs will protect an owner if someone comes screaming at them. 

Use a long leash for potty breaks. And remain focused when looking after your dog.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I did not say it was appropriate that he bit the kid. I swear you just like to pick things apart and argue. Excuse me for responding while I am working. Should know better because I don't have time to write a book to explain what I was thinking like many others do.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for a dog that attacks children. ZERO. *The only "advice" I ever give with aggression stories on here, because I've had aggressive dogs, is get a trainer.
> *
> ...


No where in your original response did you tell OP to contact a trainer...that's the whole reason I posted, because I thought OP should get a trainer immediately, not let the internet folks diagnosis his dog without ever meeting or observing him. You only explained your interpretation of each situation, and then said "However, YOU need to take charge and not let him. Up your obedience. Up your recall and leave it. Up your guard in public." Where did you say go get a trainer? Like you "always do." I don't remember your posts, and you may always say that. However, you didn't here. So, sorry to disagree again, but it definitely isn't the "only advice" you ever give, and you didn't give it at all here.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Get over it lol


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My pup and I get together with my neighbor and her lab pup quite often. She also has a young child that likes to run around screaming like a maniac. That's what kids do. I always tell her and her son that this can't happen around my dog, because he'll bite. I explain that he's not a savage beast out for blood - just a young dog joining in the games: but that's how dogs play so you have to be careful. Period. I can't guess at the reasons for what happened in your situation, but ultimately it's no different than my situation. I can't let my 2 year old GSD loose with my neighbor's 4 year old child if there's running with screaming involved. It's nice to see the 3 of them racing around together, but even then I have to make sure that the child doesn't swing something over his head and get my pup jumping at it. It's just how it is. My rules are no screaming and no toys involved - or sticks, whatever. It means I have to watch them like a hawk, but that's how it is.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

to the OP's original points:

When we play stick toss, we do a tug game. My dog growls. It's part of the game. Have I got my hand in the way a time or two? Yes, I have. I think stopping the game was probably a mistake. Working through the issue might have been better.

Screaming child - Dog off lead in an area where others of any description/size/age may be passing. "Handler" in lala land (on phone). Dope slap to handler. The dog is still a young dog - game for apprehending/intercepting fast moving objects (whose dog could have resisted a screaming, fast moving object as incoming?) Wake up. Buck up to the annoying walk around until your dog finishes his toilet ON LEAD. 

Apartment living is challenging. Face the challenges, move to a house with a fenced yard, or rehome the dog before something bad happens.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

middleofnowhere said:


> to the OP's original points:
> 
> When we play stick toss, we do a tug game. My dog growls. It's part of the game. Have I got my hand in the way a time or two? Yes, I have. I think stopping the game was probably a mistake. Working through the issue might have been better.
> 
> ...


Finally! Sanity!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

One last thing, I just want to say I didn't mean to "attack" you...I just disagree strongly with the beginning parts of your FIRST post. You never mentioned a trainer. I felt this was so much more than "maybe not inappropriate" because OP said the dog resource guards a lot and that he has from a puppy. Guarding and biting is VERY different then meaning to grab the stick and accidentally grabbing the hand. Could he have just been going for the stick?? Absolutely (see I can agree)! However, because of the history the guy gave ("has strong possession and growls at me") I am going to assume the worst. Could he just be play growling during tug?? Absolutely! It could also just be mis-placed prey drive, etc....However, when blood was drawn on a 12 year old (not sure if you consider that a child, but I do), and another young person was bit...I'm going to assume the worst, and advise to that (a trainer will be able to evaluate if it is just prey or possession or fear, etc However, there are different ways to deal with all those things, depending on what it is). 

My point was, why assume the best and possibly let another bite happen??I'm NOT saying you are trying to "let another bit happen" I simply think your advice could lead someone to not doing much (leading to another bite)...because to me, it seems like you thought both situations weren't big issues. I apologize if that's not what you meant (obviously no one wants to see a kid bit). I just don't know how anyone else would interpret "I don't know he acted inappropriately."


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## newtexas (Oct 22, 2013)

Has anyone considered the age of the "Puppy" in the first instance. He was only seven to eight months old and was probably just going for the stick. The second situation alone necessitates a good trainer.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I did not say it was appropriate that he bit the kid.* I swear you just like to pick things apart and argue. Excuse me for responding while I am working. Should know better because I don't have time to write a book to explain what I was thinking like many others do.*
> 
> I have zero tolerance for a dog that attacks children. ZERO. The only "advice" I ever give with aggression stories on here, because I've had aggressive dogs, is get a trainer.
> 
> ...


I see it this way too, I am usually working when I post, in between phone calls. I did not see anything wrong with Jax08 assessment. Please remember we are not paid professionals.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Please take the bickering to PMs for the sake of sticking to the topic.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> Please take the bickering to PMs for the sake of sticking to the topic.


No. Really. Please don't.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm sure somebody has probably mentioned this a time or two, but I'll repeat it. 
Do not let your dog off-leash. The only time I let my GSDs off leash is when we are at my Grandparents' house, which is 100 acres of countryside.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree with having the dog evaluated by a trainer and getting some serious OB on the dog.

If you don't like walking the dog around to do its business, put it on a long line. 

No cell phones while walking the dog. I think you need to pay attention to the dog. JMHO


David Winners


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I agree with having the dog evaluated by a trainer and getting some serious OB on the dog.
> 
> If you don't like walking the dog around to do its business, put it on a long line.
> 
> ...



Completely agree on the "pay attention". I have found being one step ahead of your pooch makes a world of difference when it comes to distractions and triggers.

SuperG


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

it is normal for young dog to want to play, anything running is a game in their eyes. For that reason I am extremly vigilant with kids (other than mine) even in my home. I try to explain that they should not play with my GS as she might bite palyfully (12 months old), also, she will run after you if you run. It is amazing how she picks youg kids and tries to get them to play and they get scared and try to run. When I was young I had GS male pretty big and friendly but my best friend was terrified of it, it would try tu run away from it and dog would chase it until he stopped. For those reasons I explain to people with kids that they can play with my golden (11 years old) as she si fun and safe as mature, GS is off limit for direct play with kids under 10. Even then I explai n some 'house" rules to mitigate potential incidents. During the training it was explained to us that we should instruct approaching kids to stay distance and only allow them to interact with our dogs when asked for permission and we find environment to be neautral and safe for interaction. So to be safe, keep kids away from yound inexperience dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Completely agree on the "pay attention". I have found being one step ahead of your pooch makes a world of difference when it comes to distractions and triggers.
> 
> SuperG


It also helps build engagement because the dog sees that you are interested in what is going on and playing an active role in what you are doing together.

David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

all i see in this thread are excuses for the dog. young, accidentally biting hand while going for stick, dog was startled by kid yelling, etc. 

there really should be no excuses for biting a kid. ultimately its the owners fault for not recognizing the faults of the dog. if the dog growls and is possessive of toys, how the heck do you even allow a kid to get close enough to reach down to grab the stick? that part doesnt add up. 

even if a kid was running and yelling, you shouldnt have your dog off leash if you cant recall it or put it in an emergency down.

everyone here has a different theory for why the dog bit. my theory is that the dog was resource guarding. dogs are good at targeting. i fling my ball on a rope around at 100 mph and my dog never misses and bites my hand. tough to think the dog couldnt grab on to any other part of a stick other than the kids hand. all these different theories just goes to prove that you need to find a really good trainer who has dealt with german shepherds before. its impossible to tell you why the dog did what he did without being there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kids run and scream. 

We socialize puppies to children we feel confident will control themselves and listen to instructions. This is important so that impressionable puppies do not have a really negative encounter with children when they are still very impressionable -- good socialization in this period is really, really good; bad socialization in this period is awful. 

When a kid comes flying out of the blue at a young dog, yet a puppy, but adolescent, it can spook a dog, or it can make a dog who does have some guarding or protection instincts, under-developed and not trained, make a mistake. 

I am with Jax and Middleofnowhere on this. 

Your dog is a youngster, it needs for you to get out there and get training, under the supervision of a competent trainer, and probably the best bet in group classes that are cheaper than one on one training, so that you can continue to go over a period of months, possibly many months. 

It is impossible to socialize a dog to every possible scenario. We hit the main ones, and a dog that has plenty of experiences to fall back on AND has had his confidence in himself built by good training, and his confidence in you as a leader, the dog will be unlikely to react terribly in such a situation. 

We ARE talking about children here, yes. There is a reason that children get bitten more often. They run and scream. They stand yay-high and stare into dogs' eyes. They do not wait to ask permission to approach and pet dogs they do not know. They are unpredictable a lot of the time. They are fascinated by dogs, and they do not always make proper adult decisions. We do need to protect children. 

We do need to keep our dogs on lead in public places until we have perfect confidence in them and in us -- that doesn't happen overnight. Dogs have to mature. Dogs have to have a strong bond where they listen to us regardless to the distractions or the location. 

Don't text while driving. 
Don't talk on the phone, while the dog is in a public place, where children might just run up to him. 

I would have to see what happened to this winter coat before deciding whether or not the dog needs to be muzzled in public. If a GSD, even a large GSD pup wants to hurt someone, a winter coat isn't going to stop it. I don't like the behavior. But I am not sure that the dog is attacking so much as it needs a muzzle. If the owner pays attention, keeps the dog on leash, and starts regularly training the dog with a trainer, it will probably not be necessary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

boomer11 said:


> all i see in this thread are excuses for the dog. young, accidentally biting hand while going for stick, dog was startled by kid yelling, etc.
> 
> there really should be no excuses for biting a kid. ultimately its the owners fault for not recognizing the faults of the dog. if the dog growls and is possessive of toys, how the heck do you even allow a kid to get close enough to reach down to grab the stick? that part doesnt add up.
> 
> ...


Once upon a time, about 65 years ago, my dad knew a German Shepherd in the neighborhood. Yes, even when I was a kid, it was not abnormal for dogs to be tied outside, and children of the neighborhood would come up to them and pet them. GSDs must've been different back then, because this was TYPICAL. 

Anyway. He knew this dog in the neighborhood and he liked to play with it. He would throw the stick, and the dog loved the stick and loved for my dad to throw the stick for him. It was a good long stick, and my dad was playing hard with the dog. 

My dad at one point went to throw the stick and then put it behind his back. He was seven years old, little Half-hungarian kid. Probably the size of my niece Analisa. Did I mention that the stick was a long stick? Well, the dog had taken off, and not seeing the stick turned back and saw the stick and lunged for it. 

I suppose, you can probably see how my dad's head was in the path of GSD teeth. 

Now that dog was not in the wrong. And my dad would be the first to say so. The dog immediately let go. It did prevent my father from owning a GSD until my mother put her foot down and I gave them Cujo. 

Your dogs may never miss when they go to tug on something, but lots of people's dogs do miss and get finger/hand sometimes. Are we to assume that those dogs have bad eye-sight, or poor eye-hand coordination, or that they intend to nail their owners some of the time? 

There are a lot of different types of bites and aggression. There is fear and reactive bites. Dogs who lack confidence do bite too often. There are herding bites, when a dog tries to herd children or others away from their person, puppies, or kid -- not usually painful, but certainly not something we want to encourage. There are other types of bites. The bites that bother me the most, are those that puncture, bruise, are coupled with multiple bites or attempts in an incident, bites that target the throat or head instead of extremities. 

I think it is important to look at every incident openly and honestly, so that you can determine the best course of action for your dog. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances where you should have been more present, more careful. Sometimes the dog is just going for the stick. 

If the OP said, the dog went for the kid 3 days ago, and now went for another kid again, I would be more concerned. But the first incident was a lifetime ago for this dog. 8 months to 15 months is forever in maturation, etc. 

My guess is that the owner played with the puppy really hard, the puppy got into the stick stuff, and got the kids hand. The owner seems to feel that the dog was resource guarding the stick moreso than just missing and grabbing it. And, not being there, I think we could take his word for that. He definitely felt that the game was dangerous and at that point cut it out. So it isn't the owner making excuses for the pup. I think the pup was in a high play mode with a stick, and might have make a mistake, whether it was in aiming for the wrong part of the stick or in guarding this stick that they were playing with, who knows. I wouldn't condemn a puppy on what happens in a moment of extreme play. 

A fifteen month old dog can bite through a coat, if he wanted to. I guess I am not ready to hang the pup.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> No cell phones while walking the dog. I think you need to pay attention to the dog.


Absolutely, and this is something you can start doing immediately, while you look for an experienced trainer. Whenever I'm out in public with my dogs, I'm looking at the dog, even if I'm talking to someone. I may glance at the person from time to time, but my attention is on my dog. On leash, with no other people around or at least at a safe distance, it's fine to talk on your cell phone. But off leash in an area without clear lines of sight in all directions - not worth the risk.


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## rjstrotz (Jan 16, 2014)

*Regarding the situation where the kid picked up the stick and was bitten, the bite truly appeared to be accidental. The facts don't indicate that the dog lunged at the kid... just that the dog wanted the stick at the same time the kid took the stick. The dog does not KNOW this stranger and likely had an adult picked up the stick, uninvited, the dog would have accidentally bitten the adult stranger as well--- an accidental bite, not an intentional bite on the hand.*

*The advice given that the dog needs training is good advice. The dog should be trained that human hands on his toys should be LEFT ALONE until the human hand releases the toy and gives the OK, TAKE IT command.*

*Regarding the lunging kid, who appeared to be LUNGING at the dog's owner, it is obvious that this dog was protecting his owner from a lunging human being. The dog had NO DIRECTION from its human because its human was on the phone. Had the human been paying attention, the human would have assessed the situation*
*and given the DOWN or LEAVE IT command, or simply moved the dog (on leash) out of the kid's way. I do not fault the dog and I would not label this dog as being aggressive.*

*This dog is loyal to its owner which is a quality to be admired.*
*However, its human needs to be attentive to the environment.*

*Let's face it, most kids today are more ill-behaved than wild dogs.*


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

rjstrotz said:


> *0l
> Let's face it, most kids today are more ill-behaved than wild dogs.*


*

Really?*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

rjstrotz said:


> *Regarding the situation where the kid picked up the stick and was bitten, the bite truly appeared to be accidental. The facts don't indicate that the dog lunged at the kid... just that the dog wanted the stick at the same time the kid took the stick. The dog does not KNOW this stranger and likely had an adult picked up the stick, uninvited, the dog would have accidentally bitten the adult stranger as well--- an accidental bite, not an intentional bite on the hand.*
> 
> *The advice given that the dog needs training is good advice. The dog should be trained that human hands on his toys should be LEFT ALONE until the human hand releases the toy and gives the OK, TAKE IT command.*
> 
> ...


There are natural protective instincts, that some dogs have to some extent. I am not sure that was what was happening here. 

In fact, for a fifteen month old puppy to be protective of its owner with no protection training to that extent, would be kind of surprising. 

I think it is far more likely for a dog to have been startled by the child and not knowing what to do he chose fight over flight. Which gives the owner information about his dog. This dog will be more likely to fight than to flee. 

If a dog is leashed, they aren't stupid and know that the leash will prevent them from fleeing, so they are much more likely to fight or at least act like they are willing to fight -- barking, lunging, growling, general reaction. This dog however was not leashed, and still chose fight over flight, which is a point in the story that gives me pause.

As for the stick incident, the owner made a mention about the possessiveness the dog seems to have. It could have been an accident, but if the game was to bring the stick back until the owner picks it up and throws it again, and the kid picked it up, the dog chose to act differently because of who picked up his stick. I agree if a strange adult did the same thing, the dog would have probably acted the same way. Whether he meant to bite the child or just grab the stick is still a question though.

We do expect a lot from dogs though. I mean, like, we expect them to card everybody before they decide how to react to them. A dog may treat infants different than toddlers different than little kids different than older children. But a dog may not define adult human the same way we humans do. A 12 year old running at them may be the same as a 35 year old running at them. 

OP, your dog is young. With continued socialization and training, your dog should be able to have joggers or skaters run toward you without reacting, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't happen over night. It takes training and maturation and experiences with direction from you.


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## lindadrusilla (Dec 29, 2013)

I keep my dog on a leash at all times except in an enclosed area. Kids are a no-no, cos he hates them (i think) after some children chased us and threw stones! 

If he sees a tiny human within sight of 10 metres, he'd start growling. 

And yes, all attention to be on dog and surrounding when out together. If u have to have your phone, use a handsfree. 

I'm writing on my cell now cos we're in the tennis courts playing tug of war... 




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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

it sounds to me more like prey drive. not that it is exceptable to go biting kids or running people. more training is definitely needed, more self control etc. true, that no training is 100% in the right situation, but certainly evaluating and setting the dog up in appropriate training will help.


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## martincho (Jul 12, 2012)

Well, you got a lot of good advise. I hope you will act on it.

Frankly, my advise would be that you give the dog to someone who will be far more responsible, understands the responsibility of owning such a dog and will not do stuff like get on the phone while the dog is off-leash on the street.

Get a fish tank.

Sorry for being harsh. There's zero excuse in my book for putting children in danger like that. It's beyond insane. I don't know where you live, but it could also be criminal. 

And, of course, this is also how otherwise good dogs end up getting killed. A clueless owner does everything wrong and the dog and a kid pay for it.

I don't think anyone in this thread took this tone with you. Let me be the ass who does. You need to consider whether or not you are or can become qualified to have a dog like this. This is the kind of ownership that gives entire breeds a bad reputation. It causes those of us who are responsible GSD owners all kinds of problems.

Don't get piranha's, they bite.


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## FullyCompletely (Oct 16, 2013)

You should have full control of your dog at all times. He is smart, he has no respect for strangers (Why should he?). Ask strangers to keep their distance (no petting or playing). A GSD is loyal to its people, not to random people. Work on training your dog to focus on you and ignore people. Other people will become fixtures in the environment. You should be able to eventually ask for him to switch his attention away from anything and to focus on you. Then you can be a leader and provide guidance for your dog, you can divert his attention before he gets himself in trouble 

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