# "conformation"??????????



## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I'm a new puppy parent still awaiting my (mostly eastern DDR lines GSD). I had decided to get the puppy this summer being it as it's the best time to develop a bond train a puppy while I'm only taking 2 classes during the summer. I've learned more in the last 2 months reading and researching about GSDs, then most first time owners would care to ever know. I've read about American show-lines , German show-lines , West German Working lines , East German Working lines , Czech Lines , White shepherds , Alsation UK lines, Shilo Shepherds, King Shepherds (which definitely drifted from the GSD all togher), and Panda Shepherds :crazy:. I've read about the beginnings and history, I've researched charts to decode the hieroglyphics on the pedigrees , and I've read and watched youtube videos on schuthund for hours. I also know I have a crap ton to learn still (which is why I joined). 

Now on to the point I've digressed way too much:

What is conformation (I know kind of vaguely that it is the physical standard, but how much does it vary from organization to organization) are East Lines/Czech Lines the most inline with what the founder of the breed was originally looking for in the dog? This has become my interpretation. Have the evil show-line people who are mutating the dog for a non canine skeletal structure the standard? I'm just going to shut up now and let the experts do the talking. I'm all ears :help:.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Go find a book called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" by the founder of the breed Max von Stephanitz and start reading.
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Shepherd-Word-Picture/dp/9993280054


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

bocron said:


> Go find a book called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" by the founder of the breed Max von Stephanitz and start reading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will go get the book for sure, though could you provide any insight before hand? I'm impatient and my thirst for knowledge is too powerful :hug:.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"Correct" conformation is going to be defined differently by the followers of each and every subtype....period.

Coming from an equine background - it is normal for the animals whose owners want to be competitive in conformation to look vastly different from those whose owners are focused on performance. The conformation horses are very exaggerated specimens, whose physical appearance is drastically different from the animal out there working on a ranch herding cattle.

IMO - it is exactly the same in the dog world...except that dog people argue about which type has "correct" conformation rather than accepting the strengths and weaknesses of the different types which is normal and acceptable in the horse world....

Myself - I think of Frank Lloyd Wright's _"form follows function_"......

Lee


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Technically conformation refers to the external visible details of the dog. The Standard states what those exact details should be (allowable size, proportion, shape of head, that type of thing). The standard also sets forth the non visible traits like temperament and character. 
As to which lines are most inline with what the founder intended, that is subjective. This is why I recommended you get the book, read it yourself and form your own opinion. The first registered GSD, Horand von Grafrath,( V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein) - German Shepherd Dog )doesn't look much like the GSD of today, so the breed was meant to evolve I'm sure. As to the "evil show-line people", the show lines do the most winning in the conformation ring, but that is the way of the world. Those lines are represented, that is the type that is shown, those are the breeders and owners who invest in that sport and who are on the boards of the organizations. So of course they set the trends. The working line people don't generally find that type of competition as satisfying so they leave it to the show line enthusiasts. If you got involved in football in 1930 and then decided it wasn't fun and dropped out, I'm sure you would have been surprised by the difference in football today. 
Personally I think it's a pendulum thing, and it forever swings back and forth. But it is always moving.


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

Von Öhmke - German Shepherd Dogs

Can anyone discredit what this site had to say, explained some new things I didn't know, but most of it I kind of already knew. Anyone know of a site that explains it better and in more depth?


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

bocron said:


> Technically conformation refers to the external visible details of the dog. The Standard states what those exact details should be (allowable size, proportion, shape of head, that type of thing). The standard also sets forth the non visible traits like temperament and character.
> As to which lines are most inline with what the founder intended, that is subjective. This is why I recommended you get the book, read it yourself and form your own opinion. The first registered GSD, Horand von Grafrath,( V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein) - German Shepherd Dog )doesn't look much like the GSD of today, so the breed was meant to evolve I'm sure. As to the "evil show-line people", the show lines do the most winning in the conformation ring, but that is the way of the world. Those lines are represented, that is the type that is shown, those are the breeders and owners who invest in that sport and who are on the boards of the organizations. So of course they set the trends. The working line people don't generally find that type of competition as satisfying so they leave it to the show line enthusiasts. If you got involved in football in 1930 and then decided it wasn't fun and dropped out, I'm sure you would have been surprised by the difference in football today.
> Personally I think it's a pendulum thing, and it forever swings back and forth. But it is always moving.


I just don't get it man, east ddr and czech dogs are gorgeous they are bread for health and drive I know, but they are also have more muscular builds, block heads, shorter snouts, straight backs, I could go on all day... *Is there any conformation ring that favors this kind of healthy epitome of a dog look(that East/Czech lines posses)?* German lines have mutated the dog and the American show lines are even worse! Why do these people make up the rules? Also why does such a beautiful dog come out the working lines when they are only breeding for health, drive, and temperament? I'm going to have to go buy that book that was suggested to me. How can people in there right mind breed for particular traits that are "rare" and mutated and ignore all the other features and then the worst part declare it as the beautiful one! Dogs aren't super models they're dogs and American show lines are just as empty and diseased as shallow anorexic American super models, but I guess that goes with our screwed up culture that only cares about instant gratification and consumption!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Once again, the people who favor performance in a dog aren't going to spend time in the conformation ring, so why do you think any conformation organization is going to award that look or type if no one with that type is going to show up and spend money or time on that endeavor. You are new to the breed it seems and is like a college kid who just discovered politics. Read, watch and learn a bit before trying to start a coup .

Oh, and over the last 2 decades I have lived with or trained GSDs of pretty much every type described in that site you linked to. There are good and bad within all. I will say that we had 2 DDR dogs in the early 90's and they were not like the "DDR" dogs of today (I put that in quotes because I don't think there are many DDR dogs around, they are mostly diluted). We currently have in our house 2 WGSL dogs, 1 Czech WL male, and 5 other WL dogs of various bloodlines. I know which are my favorites, but that doesn't mean I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Each has attributes that are valuable within the breed.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> it is normal for the animals whose owners want to be competitive in conformation to look vastly different from those whose owners are focused on performance. The conformation horses are very exaggerated specimens, whose physical appearance is drastically different from the animal out there working on a ranch herding cattle.
> 
> IMO - it is exactly the same in the dog world...except that dog people argue about which type has "correct" conformation rather than accepting the strengths and weaknesses of the different types which is normal and acceptable in the horse world....
> 
> ...


Yeah, what Lee said!


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

bocron said:


> Once again, the people who favor performance in a dog aren't going to spend time in the conformation ring, so why do you think any conformation organization is going to award that look or type if no one with that type is going to show up and spend money or time on that endeavor. You are new to the breed it seems and is like a college kid who just discovered politics. Read, watch and learn a bit before trying to start a coup .
> 
> Oh, and over the last 2 decades I have lived with or trained GSDs of pretty much every type described in that site you linked to. There are good and bad within all. I will say that we had 2 DDR dogs in the early 90's and they were not like the "DDR" dogs of today (I put that in quotes because I don't think there are many DDR dogs around, they are mostly diluted). We currently have in our house 2 WGSL dogs, 1 Czech WL male, and 5 other WL dogs of various bloodlines. I know which are my favorites, but that doesn't mean I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Each has attributes that are valuable within the breed.


Yes, I'm a college student, but at almost 27 does that not make me a man? I think I'm entering my physiological prime, so I don't like being called a kid, plus I believe I'm smarter than the average Joe(which isn't saying much considering I'm an American) and wiser than my avg peer. Though I digress and I know you didn't mean any insult by it. Yes my new pup is diluted (though I've had people help me research his lineage extensively and he still is mostly east german with a little west german working lines in him and a drop of czech). Though by the demeanor of him thus far and his parents, he seems to have inherited some of the desired traits of the DDR I'm looking for, though only time will tell. Since the Czech is almost identical to the east lines in structure and function, I plan to purchase a female of Czech down the road. Hypothetically if they both are completely free of all known diseases and disorders and have the right combination of temperaments, structure, drive, and schutzund titles, I'd plan to potentially breed the pair. That's a lot of what ifs and I still have a lot to learn, though it's nice to dream. *Are the Czech lines still pure and not as diluted?* Knowing the answer to this question will be potentially useful a couple years down the road when I have the space and land for a 2nd GSD.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Uhmm, I didn't say you were a kid, I said you were like a college kid who has just discovered politics. In that you are new to the breed (I was guessing) and are very excited about the whole venture. 
In actuality your age never came to mind.


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

bocron said:


> *Once again, the people who favor performance in a dog aren't going to spend time in the conformation ring, so why do you think any conformation organization is going to award that look or type if no one with that type is going to show up and spend money or time on that endeavor*.


I wasn't asking that at all, that is obvious to even to a novice like myself, what I was really asking was are there any organizations that have conformation that goes along with the working qualities and base their conformation on the principles of the east and Czech structure/form?


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## The_Dude (Jun 8, 2012)

bocron said:


> Uhmm, I didn't say you were a kid, I said you were like a college kid who has just discovered politics. In that you are new to the breed (I was guessing) and are very excited about the whole venture.
> In actuality your age never came to mind.


Didn't mean anything by it and I'm not offended, sorry if I upset you, I have a tendency to over explain, ramble, and digress. Old habits hard to break : /


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The breed is judged by the standards set forth by the mother country, Germany (well, unless you compete in the AKC breed ring). Short muzzled, fat headed dogs with massive bone like many of the DDR dogs and some Czech are really no more correct than a short muzzled, fat headed 68cm show line or a straight shouldered, flat withered unbalanced working line.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am closing this thread. The OP was a member just banned yesterday.


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