# Another question about titles & breeding



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

I know that everyone has different goals for breeding, and different standards that they follow for their own breeding programs, but I'm curious about those who do not title dogs before breeding them. I'm curently researching different kennels for the future when I am ready to get a second GSD, and I've come across some that seem to be doing the right thing, do all health testing, etc etc, but no titles, or only some dogs have titles. A common thing is the male is a Sch 1 or 2 and the female is not titled in anything. Same for CH, but I've seen a lot more with Sch. 

If you were considering a kennel, litter, puppy, and only one or neither parent was titled, is that an automatic write off, or would you still consider? If so, what other criteria are you looking at? Just health testing?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

That would depend for me. I would want to see the bitch be able to do something besides produce puppies. At a minimum I would want to see her do some OB at a place other than the breeders back yard. Show me the bitch has something between her ears. Show me the bitch can track on a strange field, show me the bitch can do some agility, show me something besides a pretty body that can crake out puppies.

Also It would have to be a breeding from lines that I know something about.

I am getting more jaded about titles, I want to see the stud and the bitch work if possible.

Val


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

Depends on how the titles were achieved. 
For choosing a breeder, I would (and did w/ Karlo) go with a breeder that works their own dogs and not purchasing an already titled dog for their breeding program. One who researches the match for a complimentary breeding to get outstanding traits of both parents.

I wouldn't have chosen Onyx's breeder(she was a surprise gift from my husband for the family, he did no research) she had 4-H titles on her female, her daughter did agility and obedience with her. Breeder thought this was worthy of reproducing. Have no idea how she chose the stud, but it was not a good match. THe stud owner even had a falling out w/ the breeder so no paperwork was available. She has had three litters with this female, different stud w/ the next two and supposedly will retire her after this last one she had in June. Onyx's temperament is questionable.

I think temperament and health are so very important, it doesn't matter if they have a SchH A or 3. By going with a breeder who had several litters previously, and has a great foundation set for their program, you could look at the past litters and see for yourself whether there were problems or not. Small enough to do that, but enough litters that there was evidence of a worthy breeding program. Before I had placed my reserve, the breeder offered references of previous purchasers.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl By going with a breeder who had several litters previously, and has a great foundation set for their program, you could look at the past litters and see for yourself whether there were problems or not.


just a question... wouldn't the breeder only give you references they know will be positive? how else can you truly see "for yourself"?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

I was given a list of over 20 names. And yes, I thought of that, but if you research your breeder, you can find out if someone is unhappy, they are usually the loudest and by googling, it will come out if they are posting things on the net.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Ha, true, they usually are the loudest, aren't they? =D


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

Personally I am interested in more than titles as far as the breeding dogs' temperament/training. I would not automatically write off a breeder if the dogs were not all titled. It depends on what you are looking for though and your goals. 
Bianca's parents were both titled, SCH2 and 3 and all her grandparents were SCH3 except one was SCH1, great grandparents were all SCH titled yet Bianca who was originally sold as a breeding dog (in other words one who would be able to get at least Sch1) washed out of her Schutzhund training.


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

Very interesting. I just wasn't sure if breeding untitled dogs was considered reputable given other circumstances. Also, as far as health testing goes, besides OFA hips & elbows, what other tests are recommended for GSD's?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

After seeing the yearly decline in the quality of GSD's at the biggest GSD show over in Germany, I think people are just becoming I don't know jaded, fed up with the same old same old stuff. Money talks and big dogs walk.

Val


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends on the dog, temperament and WHY not titled.

There are some titled dogs that are bred and the question is; how did they get there?

But, there are non-titled dogs that are bred and the question should be asked - why? If the breeder is involved in various areas - AKC, SCH, SDA - why not? Is the dog young or older? What is the true goal of the breeding? What dog are they being bred to and why? 

Just a couple of questions to ask.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As a buyer, not a breeder, I would not always write off a dog without titles. Nikon's mother had a SchH1 when he was born but I've seen her work, sometimes two or three times a week, for the past year. She is being trialed for the 2 and 3. In her case, I trust the opinion of someone who has been in the sport for years and is a national competitor and training helper more than just writing her off b/c she "only" has the 1. Also, from a more general perspective, the dog is sound as far as being very social with people and other dogs. Because of my lifestyle I cannot keep and train a dog that is super aloof and very suspicious.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

Titles are important to me, but even more important is the work that has gone into achieving that title because it is through the training to get there that the dog's temperament and nerve is tested and uncovered. To me, that is the most important part of titling. Not just to prove that the dog has met a minimum set of criteria (assuming it was a legitimate title) but because the presence of a title on a dog means that someone, somewhere, knows that dog really really well because they put the time into training to the level of that title. That person is a wealth of information about the dog's strengths and weaknesses, as can be the helpers and others who watched or participated in the dog's training. 

To me, this whole process fails and it's value is greatly diminished when people don't work and train and title their dogs themselves. Because while such a person may have a highly titled dog, if they just bought it that way or sent it off for training, they don't have the first hand knowledge of that dog's temperament that comes from the whole training and titling process, and that knowledge is very important when it comes to making breeding decisions. If the person doesn't have that knowledge about the dog, how can they make sound breeding decisions? If that person has never trained or titled any dog, which is the case with MANY breeders breeding titled dogs, how do they even know themselves what makes a good dog in the first place?

I personally would only purchase a pup with titled parents, and only from a breeder who actively works and trains and titles him/herself. But if I had to choose otherwise, I would be much more likely to buy a pup from an untitled dog, where the breeder is actively training and working dogs, and that dog is being trained and worked, than I would from someone who's breeding SchH3 to SchH3 but just buys titled dogs or sends them off for titling, never training or working the dogs him/herself, and in many cases having never trained or worked any dog. The knowledge of the breeder about what constitutes good nerve, temperament and working ability, both in general and as it relates to their individual dogs, is the most important factor.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It would depend on the breeder. It isn't the titles as much as the knowledge and experience of the breeder, but......I have met very few that know what they are doing when it comes to producing working dogs, period. That includes people titling their own dogs, buying and breeding titled stock and those who don't title at all.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17sVery interesting. I just wasn't sure if breeding untitled dogs was considered reputable given other circumstances. Also, as far as health testing goes, besides OFA hips & elbows, what other tests are recommended for GSD's?


Not so much tests but questions:
One thing to look for or ask about (If you can get references from the breeder) is allergies, do any dogs from their litters have them? Are they poop eaters?(I believe the poo eating is caused because the pups area not getting picked up enough and they have watched mom do it so will copy the behavior til it is a habit, I may be wrong on that, though) So many things to think about when we see all the problems people are posting about their puppies. I know some of the problems are environmental and some are shaped behaviors, but these are the day to day things we have to live with and an Obedience, Agility or SchH title won't tell us these things. 
What is the breeder feeding? I think nutrition is very important, it tells quite a bit about the breeder just in what they choose to feed.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Allergies, missing teeth, producing missing testicles, etc.


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks everyone...very informative answers. I didn't want to find myself immediately turning away from a breeder if they didn't fall into an exact mold of what a good, reputable breeder is. I'm glad to hear that there can be, and are, exceptions to the rules. 

I never thought about titles in this way. It all makes much more sense to me. I have come across many American breeders who are importing titled, sometimes even pregnant, adults and selling their offspring. The word "Imported" seems to be used as an advertising point, but really doesn't mean much when you think about it. 

When I talked about health testing, I want to know which specific tests should have been completed on breeding stock ( I will ask this in a different thread)

Thanks again!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also as a buyer, it depends on what I have in mind to do (if anything) with the dog I'm looking for. IF I'm looking to do agility/obedience/herding/whatever it may be, I'm looking for parents who do it and I prefer to see owner/breeder trained dogs.

My first priorities tho are health and temperament, I have to be able to 'live' with what I get. Dogs don't always produce themselves, therefore the majority of puppies are crap shoots, which are not only affected by genetics but nature/training/environment. 

In the end if it's something I want, I' will get it, I also want to see whomever I go with, have a good understanding of the breed if they don't, well that's a pass. Health testing is a must for anyone I buy from )


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17sThanks everyone...very informative answers. I didn't want to find myself immediately turning away from a breeder if they didn't fall into an exact mold of what a good, reputable breeder is. I'm glad to hear that there can be, and are, exceptions to the rules.
> 
> I never thought about titles in this way. It all makes much more sense to me. I have come across many American breeders who are importing titled, sometimes even pregnant, adults and selling their offspring. The word "Imported" seems to be used as an advertising point, but really doesn't mean much when you think about it.
> 
> ...


You are a VERY smart person, and asking ALL the right questions. Some puppy is going to get very lucky.............


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lucina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Stephanie17sThanks everyone...very informative answers. I didn't want to find myself immediately turning away from a breeder if they didn't fall into an exact mold of what a good, reputable breeder is. I'm glad to hear that there can be, and are, exceptions to the rules.
> ...


Thank you! I just want to be sure I do things correctly this time around











> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAalso as a buyer, it depends on what I have in mind to do (if anything) with the dog I'm looking for. IF I'm looking to do agility/obedience/herding/whatever it may be, I'm looking for parents who do it and I prefer to see owner/breeder trained dogs.
> 
> My first priorities tho are health and temperament, I have to be able to 'live' with what I get. Dogs don't always produce themselves, therefore the majority of puppies are crap shoots, which are not only affected by genetics but nature/training/environment.
> 
> In the end if it's something I want, I' will get it, I also want to see whomever I go with, have a good understanding of the breed if they don't, well that's a pass. Health testing is a must for anyone I buy from )


I figure if the parents are healthy, stable, good representatives of the breed, it increases the chance that they will produce the same. It's unfortunate that it doesn't always work out that way, because I think that gives BYBs and PM's a platform to say, "Hey, that champion bred dog that came from health tested parents ended up with HD, might as well buy from me...No waiting lists!" However, it's a chance I'd much rather take lol. 

I'm trying to keep things in perspective as far as what I want to accomplish with my future dog. It's still quite a ways off, so who knows what sport will be interesting to me at the time. I'm planning on starting agility classes with Alexa as soon as her OB class is done. The OB trainer, who also teaches beginner and advanced agility said she has a lot of potential, so that should be exciting! 

As difficult as it is, I'm trying to focus more on breeders than on the dogs themselves...especially since 1-3 years from now the breeding stock could be completely different.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Quote:As difficult as it is, I'm trying to focus more on breeders than on the dogs themselves...especially since 1-3 years from now the breeding stock could be completely different.


I think many great breeders have a certain foundation set and hopefully the stock would be from that. So I would still look at the dogs they have produced. I know of a kennel nearby that has many litters at once on the ground, charges big bucks and has issues with soft ears quite often. They eventually come up with taping-why should they have to be taped in the first place?? These are "World Class" bloodlines...
At least you are researching now and have plenty of time/
I think once you get into agility, you are going to be hooked big time!!! Good luck with it


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> > Quote:As difficult as it is, I'm trying to focus more on breeders than on the dogs themselves...especially since 1-3 years from now the breeding stock could be completely different.
> ...


That's true! You would think after all the soft ears they would realize something isn't working out here...lol

Yes, I am very excited about agility! I hope Alexa enjoys it..I was really hoping to get her involved in a sport!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> To me, this whole process fails and it's value is greatly diminished when people don't work and train and title their dogs themselves. Because while such a person may have a highly titled dog, if they just bought it that way or sent it off for training, they don't have the first hand knowledge of that dog's temperament that comes from the whole training and titling process, and that knowledge is very important when it comes to making breeding decisions. If the person doesn't have that knowledge about the dog, how can they make sound breeding decisions? If that person has never trained or titled any dog, which is the case with MANY breeders breeding titled dogs, how do they even know themselves what makes a good dog in the first place?


Reading this I have come to conclude that if you breeding a bitch to a stud you did not raise and train then your doing just what your saying above Chris, not making sound breeding decisions. 

My reasoning, just as you wrote above, that you don't know the goods on the stud. YOU are not the one who trained and titled him so you don't know his breaking points. You are taking someone else's word on him just as if you paid someone to title your dog... .Which means as a breeder your breeding to a dog you don't truely know. 

Face it, breeding is a hit and miss thing. All dogs started out as non titled dogs. 

The biggest thing I want to add... If your buying a puppy from a non titled sire/dam then make sure they are house dogs. For a person to keep a dog in the house then they must be pretty level dogs or their house would be completely messed up. People that don't care about their dogs.... or spend lots of time with them will usually have then in a pen on outside. 

Working dogs..... Dogs that are used on a farm should not be included in the pen dogs. These dogs prove theirself all the time with the work they do. Still you should always test those dogs before you purchase a pup. 


EDIT.... AND GET PUPS FROM PEOPLE WHO CARE ENOUGH TO AT LEAST MAKE SURE THE HIPS ARE GOOD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

IMO, the key to meaningful breeding is knowledge and experience of the DOGS being bred, and the standard of the breed so you know what you are trying to acheive is correct and not what you LIKE or what people told you is right. Personal preference cannot be important for breeders like it can be for owners. Knowledge can come from many sources, it can come from experience, it can come from interviews/conversations, it can come from facts,etc. Historians, often have not MET the person they are considered experts on, but they have done the due diligence to be able to write or converse on the subject accurately and indepth. 
The problems with many breeders today is they lack the experience or the knowledge, or in some cases both, of the dogs and the standard. So they rely on the titles and the certs, and what they LIKE, to make breeding decisions regardless of the dog or the standard. You see people it is NOT the Sch title that we want to produce, it is the work ability that it takes to acheive the title. Its not the OFA excellent, its the functional hips that ALLOW the dog to do the work in an exemplary manner. Great hips and little work ability is of little use as great work and little hips to the BREEDER. Both have imbalances that are too far from center that the dog cannot be standard. For the owner, a dog with great hips and little work ability may be fine, but for the breeder this is the road to nonperforming dogs that diminish the nobility of the breed. Today people breed titles and certs exclusively, and yet the breed is further from the standard in terms of what the dog should be able to do, than ever. Why, because you can advertise these things and NOT have to have the original " knowledge and experience" and still be perceived as a "reputable breeder". If this was truly the case the end result of what the breed is today should be so much better than what it is, and yet it isn't. A minority of the breed can actually do any meaningful work or have stellar incorruptible temperament. You would think that with the many people who breed with titles and certs this should be the inverse. I see far many more dogs from titled parents these days then thirty years ago, and yet I see far more dogs that couldn't assist a visually impaired person, or protect a police officer, then I did thirty years ago. Why haven't the titles and certs dramatically improved these things???? 
In conclusion, I say that titles and certs are a valuable PART of the equation, but only a part for me as a breeder. I usually purchase dogs from titled dogs, and yet I really pay no attention to the title if that makes any sense to people. A sch 3 is nothing to me, but a Sch 3 at a national event is has meaning. But Sch is primarily the result of training and I also can't lose sight that training will not pass genetically. So it still ultimately comes down to experiences(having trained a dog to know what you look at IF you view the dog) and knowledge,(to be able to stay away from the genetically inferior dogs that glutton the place these days). 
Hope this post makes sense. JMHO


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Very well said, cliftonanderson1!!


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: FredDVery well said, cliftonanderson1!!


X 2.
I have learned so much about what constitutes a sound breeding program and the level of knowledge that can only come from years of working dogs, and understanding bloodlines and what they bring to the table.
In short, I have learned what I don't know, but certainly that I have no business breeding dogs. Guess that makes me a responsible breeder, doesn't it?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1IMO, the key to meaningful breeding is knowledge and experience of the DOGS being bred, and the standard of the breed so you know what you are trying to acheive is correct and not what you LIKE or what people told you is right.
> 
> Personal preference cannot be important for breeders like it can be for owners.
> Knowledge can come from many sources, it can come from experience, it can come from interviews/conversations, it can come from facts,etc. Historians, often have not MET the person they are considered experts on, but they have done the due diligence to be able to write or converse on the subject accurately and indepth.
> ...


Great post!!

I hope you don't mind I added some spaces to make it easier to read.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74
> 
> Reading this I have come to conclude that if you breeding a bitch to a stud you did not raise and train then your doing just what your saying above Chris, not making sound breeding decisions.
> 
> My reasoning, just as you wrote above, that you don't know the goods on the stud. YOU are not the one who trained and titled him so you don't know his breaking points. You are taking someone else's word on him just as if you paid someone to title your dog... .Which means as a breeder your breeding to a dog you don't truly know.


I don't know Chris that well but know her well enough to know that she is not breeding based on someone else's word. That is ludicrous. A good breeder can meet the studs, watch them train, watch them compete, their owners and trainers will be open about all of the pros and cons. Also important, a breeder like Chris would evaluate a potential stud's progeny, and other dogs in his litter or pedigree. Sometimes the best dog in trials is not necessarily the best producer. It is not just about the points and the title. I know Chris and the other people in her program put so much time and care and research into selecting the appropriate studs.

This is not the same as buying titled bitches from here and titled studs from there and pairing them off because they have the titles and supposedly good pedigrees. Likewise I steer clear of breeding programs where one or two studs are used on half a dozen or more bitches...then the next year a new stud is bought or leased, rinse, repeat. I see this a lot with show line kennels.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I don't know Chris that well but know her well enough to know that she is not breeding based on someone else's word.


I don't 'know' Chris at all but judging from all I've read here I agree, Lies. IF I was interested in WL, Chris is among those I'd be seeking advice from.



> Quote:That is ludicrous. A good breeder can meet the studs, watch them train, watch them compete, their owners and trainers will be open about all of the pros and cons. Also important, a breeder like Chris would evaluate a potential stud's progeny, and other dogs in his litter or pedigree.


Yep...BUT that's equally true of those that buy titled dogs rather than actually doing the titling. FTR, nothing precludes people from buying titled dogs & doing additional training/evaluation. IF the 'best' breeders train & title their breeding bitches, it follows they should train & title the studs they use on those bitches.

Frankly, whether they're show, working or companion breeders, IMO, the best breeders consistently produce what they're striving for, (which must include temperament, health & longevity) are clear as to what that is, describe it honestly & stand behind the pups they sell. There are people producing excellent dogs that have neither the interest nor the time for organized competition. They know their dogs, thoroughly train & work their dogs & in many cases evaluate them more ruthlessly than an outsider would. 

Many of the unwritten rules as to what makes a 'good' breeder are focused on everything but the pups produced & the adults those pups become. As rapnek74 pointed out, these unwritten rules can be inconsistent &/or illogical. I believe a great deal of this pretzled logic comes from formulating arguments as to why titles are important to people seeking quality pets. 

Some schutzhund enthusiasts select for a temperament grossly unsuited to strictly companion homes. How are unsuspecting puppy buyers to know this, or know which shutzhund focused breeders to trust versus those better avoided? That information is at least as important to puppy seekers as who titled/trained the breeding stock.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*



> Quote:IF the 'best' breeders train & title their breeding bitches, it follows they should train & title the studs they use on those bitches.


Some breeders do not want stud dogs on premises and as long as they do what Lies describes, can have a good match for their breedings thru their research.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:Some schutzhund enthusiasts select for a temperament grossly unsuited to strictly companion homes. How are unsuspecting puppy buyers to know this, or know which shutzhund focused breeders to trust versus those better avoided? That information is at least as important to puppy seekers as who titled/trained the breeding stock.


You go and meet the dogs, meet the breeder, hopefully see some pups so you can evaluate for yourself. If you are a novice you take along someone who can help you make that decision. This is what was done before the internet because the way people chose puppies. 

As for your first sentence, many pet breeders and show breeders also breed dogs that are grossly lacking in temperament and the nerves needed for strictly pet homes. Far too many from my experience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> Many of the unwritten rules as to what makes a 'good' breeder are focused on everything but the pups produced & the adults those pups become.


There have been many a great breeder who have changed their mind about studs based on progeny. Likewise you will find repeat litters based on the quality of the progeny from that pairing. I don't see how anyone could disregard studying progeny and be a 'good' breeder, at least not by my 'rules'.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:There have been many a great breeder who have changed their mind about studs based on progeny. Likewise you will find repeat litters based on the quality of the progeny from that pairing. I don't see how anyone could disregard studying progeny and be a 'good' breeder, at least not by my 'rules'.


Absolutely, Lies. How did you construe differently from what I posted? When I chose a breeder the very last thing I looked at were pups. Healthy pups are adorable regardless of lines, background, breeding. I was most interested in what particular bitches, dogs & matings produced (ie progeny). It was not so much the pups (all adorable) as the _adults they matured into_ that I was interested in. Again, where did my post imply differently?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

I guess I don't understand the statement "Many of the unwritten rules as to what makes a 'good' breeder are focused on everything but the pups produced & the adults those pups become." 

How can anyone be any sort of good or even average breeder without evaluating their progeny?

I know for a fact that some great breedings and great studs have been put on hold because of questions about the progeny, or lack thereof. Not all working line breeders are looking for "points dogs" prey monsters that have no off switch. I guess we all have our own ideas about what constitutes a "good" breeder bu IMO ones producing dogs that at the very least are not suitable for companionship would not be on my list.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

Jane, I don't disagree but I think it's disingenuous to insist 'good breeders' title their bitches while not applying that reasoning to the dogs they use. Either good breeders can buy already titled bitches/dogs as well as title them, or they can't. 

Lisa, while show & pet breeders commonly produce dogs 'grossly lacking in temperament' I don't think <u>good</u> show & pet breeders will. Many exemplary schutzhund breeders breed pups where some will be suitable for novice owners, while others select for a temperament that isn't suited to strictly companion homes or novice owners. The difference is these are good breeders _choosing_ a temperament that will be unmanageable in many inexperienced households. It's not a 'bad temperament', but it absolutely requires the right owner & environment. How will novice puppy buyers know the difference, especially when it's often advised to have pups shipped sight unseen from across the country?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

*Re: Another question about titles & breeding*

What I got from what Ruby said (and I could be wrong) was some sarcasm regarding 'good' and that too often when people, especially those who are new, are looking for "good" breeders they are looking for quantifiable things. Certifications, titles, etc. Things that are tangible. And that they too often overlook the actual product- the offspring. 

To kind of throw an analogy at you...You've got a recipe and it has ALL kinds of good things that you like to eat and are good for you...but when you actually make it, it tastes like garbage and even your dogs won't eat it. 

So if what you put together puts out garbage, then you probably shouldn't do it again. This doesn't seem to be always be true for breeders. The parents have titles and certifications and beauty and brains...So it MUST be a good breeding! To me, the end result should be a more important consideration when evaluating a breeding program.

To me, a really great breeder tracks their progeny and is constantly updating their opinion about their breeding stock as they get more and more experience.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:How can anyone be any sort of good or even average breeder without evaluating their progeny?


They can't. We're agreed on that. However, breeders can consistently & predictably produce sound, healthy, long lived pups regardless of whether they accept credit cards, advertise in the newspaper, use titled dogs (or title their own), sell on speuter contracts, ship their precious pups (different breed has this commandment), require 3 page applications & use correct grammar & spelling. 

In a breed as rife with health & temperament problems as the GSD, prospective puppy buyers should make temperament, health & longevity their major concerns. So much of the advice given for weeding out breeders doesn't really address any of that.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

JKlatsky, yes & absolutely! I want a breeder I can work with if problems arise, but more importantly, I want a dog I love living with for many, many happy, healthy years.

I'm more concerned with rampant allergies than whether or not Shepherd is spelled correctly. I need a dog that's a treasure with children, perfect grammar is not a requirement. I pay by check. I don't give a ratz patoot if others pay with Visa. Lengthy discussions with breeders can be as informative & invaluable as those largely unenforceable contracts some are ga-ga for. I want relevant information on extended family but I'm largely indifferent as to which organizations the humans are members of.

Too many of the criteria suggested for determining who's a 'good breeder' are artificial & have little if anything, to do with the pups produced. JMO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyWhat I got from what Ruby said (and I could be wrong) was some sarcasm regarding 'good' and that too often when people, especially those who are new, are looking for "good" breeders they are looking for quantifiable things. Certifications, titles, etc. Things that are tangible. And that they too often overlook the actual product- the offspring.


Oh I completely agree on this. I was just confused based on the context, what she had quoted from my post. I was simply referring to stud selection NOT being simply "taking someone else's word". Just because some breeders do does not make it good or ideal.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

We all agree that many "titles" and "certifications" are full of deception. I would therefore not put a great deal of value in some dogs that have such titles. After studying their pedigree, examining the dog, observing said dog in action both in the ring and more importantly around the house/kennel, finding offspring from said dog, observing the offspring, and weighing what I value in a German shepherd, then i would pick my dog. I could care less if it has such and such title or how many letters come after his name. I know, by observation and bloodlines what to expect. Some breeders will pee in your boot and swear it was raining. 

By comparison, not all medical doctors are good doctors. Some are down right terrible but they have the right letters following their name. Unfortunately, I think some breeders and buyers place too much importance on titles and give health and temperament very little attention.

I am not convinced, nor will I ever be, that a breeder must title his own dogs to know them especially when the titling is riddled with corruption and greed.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Doc... Too many times have I seen the best dog get shut out by ones not deserving. It goes back to who the owner is or who's pocket is getting full. 

I have judged several AKC Field Trail events and will never do it again. The last one did it for me. That was 9 years ago. 

I have no reason to believe it's different in other type events.


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

Good Morning all! I am very interested in this thread. I am planning my first GSD litter this spring. It took me many years to find a bitch worth breeding and I now have one. If I could clone her I would. 
Question....what is the top 5 most important things you look for in a breeder? sire and dam?
ok...let the discuss begin!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know I look for both bitch and dam to have SOME kind of title. Just shows the owner is concerned with actually have some kind of health/temperament rather than just getting $$$$$$$$$$ for the puppies.

I also look for a good puppy warranty/agreement thingy (technical breeding term there).

Having a GOAL for their breeding program that can be seen in their choices for breeding. So I guess education in the breed.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

A good breeder should be able to tell you why they chose to breed their female, and why they chose that particular male to breed her to. They should also be able to tell you what they hoped to produce by doing that breeding.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Breeder;
1. I like to see a breeder who knows the breed he/she is dealing with. I expect them to know more than I do about the breed.
2. I like a breeder who works/trains/titles/etc. his/her own dogs.
3. I like to see a breeder with goals for breeding that I can admire
4. I like to see a breeder who isn’t afraid to say that even though they can, they are not going to breed their Dam this time because.....
5. Personality - it’s a long term relationship between buyer & breeder and I want to feel like I can get along with the breeder for the long term.

Sire and Dam;
1. Have they had previous litters? Would a dog from the previous litter suit what I’m looking for? What did they produce? If no pervious litters, what about their parents & siblings? 
2. How is their temperament? How was the temperament of their ancestors?
3. How is their health? How was the heath of their ancestors? How old did their ancestors live to be?
4. Are they titled? What kind of titles do they have? Who trained them?
5. Will the puppy work for what my plans entail?


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

SO far so good....thanks everyone for answering! Keep them coming!


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## valkyriegsd (Apr 20, 2000)

I've always felt wary of breeders that can't/won't tell you what their dogs' weak points are. If they can't see them or won't admit to them, how can they breed to correct them??


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