# Digestion Issues/Opinion on food



## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but when Jones was a puppy, we had ongoing problems with diarrhea. We thought we'd gotten him figured out, and he was doing well on Orijen for quite a while. 

Then he got terrible diarrhea again, and was diagnosed with giardia. We treated him for that, and the giardia is gone, but he no longer was doing well on Orijen, nor was he really interested in eating it. We switched him to a food that is made locally - it's essentially a home-cooked food for dogs. He seems to do ok on it. No diarrhea anymore, but his poop is far from firm. It also seems like the food is not being completely digested, as I can see chunks of sweet potato in his poop.

Here is the food he's on currently (any opinions on the food would be much appreciated!): http://www.myperfectpet.net/products.html . It's the Hunter's blend that he's eating.

My questions: Does this mean that he has a problem with sweet potatoes, or digestion in general? Our vet is starting to think it's an allergy, and wants to put him on HA, which I will only do as a last resort, but I'm not sure what to do in the meantime. He's been on many different foods, so if it was an allergy, it seems like we would have found at least one food that would work. Help! =)


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Do you have a list of the different proteins he's eaten and the different grain/carbohydrates he's consumed? How did he do on each? 

I'm just wondering if it's an allergy if you can do an elimination diet.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Veggies and grains have to either be well cooked and or finely mashed/ground for the dog to digest them completely. Do you see chucks of taters in the product? If so this might be why you see it in the stool.

Your dog just might not do good on that particular food or formula. 

Any weight issues? Have you had an EPI test done?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The sweet potatoes should be pureed for optimal digestion. I would let the people know who make the food that chunks of potatoes will usually come out as chunks.









You might want to try the supplement Perfect Form by Honest Kitchen. Rafi had less than firm poos and I put him on that and it has firmed things right up.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If you are seeing chunks of sweet potato coming through, that's not right. This is supposed to be a fully cooked product and fully cooked sweet potato is mushy and even a little bit of mixing, like that would be needed to make this dog food, would make the sweet potato unrecognizable.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I'm wondering too since the diet is home cooked - what is the bone content like (given the propensity for cooked bones to splinter, unless they are using ground bone)? I feed the dogs raw and bone really firms up their pooh - maybe the calcium/bone content is low?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: jarnDo you have a list of the different proteins he's eaten and the different grain/carbohydrates he's consumed? How did he do on each?
> 
> I'm just wondering if it's an allergy if you can do an elimination diet.


I can list the foods he's been on, and how he's done on them.

Solid Gold Wolf Cub - I put him on this when we got him. He did ok initially, and then started with the diarrhea.

EN - per the vet's recommendation. We couldn't even get him to eat it, so I don't know how it affected his stomach.

Nature's variety instinct chicken - had diarrhea on this

Chicken/rice cooked at home - he has diarrhea on this

Pinnacle - he ate all of the varieties. He actually did pretty well on this food, but eventually stopped eating it. 

Orijen - put him on this because he stopped eating Pinnacle. He did great on it for a couple months. Used both the original and the red meat versions.

Nature's Logic chicken - he had diarrhea on it

My perfect pet - grain version worked ok, was better on grain free initially, seems to be getting worse the longer he's on it

I can't seem to find a common problem - and oddly enough, he seems to do pretty well when we initially switch foods, but the longer he's on the food, the worse his poop gets.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559Veggies and grains have to either be well cooked and or finely mashed/ground for the dog to digest them completely. Do you see chucks of taters in the product? If so this might be why you see it in the stool.
> 
> Your dog just might not do good on that particular food or formula.
> 
> Any weight issues? Have you had an EPI test done?


The weird thing is that I don't see the sweet potatoes in his food, it's only in his poop. The orange really seems to stand out then. Blech.

As for his weight, he's VERY lean. His highest weight was 85 pounds, but you can feel every bone in his body. I think he's lost a couple pounds on this food, unfortunately.

We tested for EPI when he was younger and was having all these problems. It came back on the low end of normal.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThe sweet potatoes should be pureed for optimal digestion. I would let the people know who make the food that chunks of potatoes will usually come out as chunks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm...I'll have to contact them about that, and see what they say. I actually emailed them this morning to ask if they had a grain free food that didn't have sweet potatoes. When I hear back from them, I'll mention that.

I'll look into that supplement. I know I've heard people say it works, so it's worth a shot.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ElaineIf you are seeing chunks of sweet potato coming through, that's not right. This is supposed to be a fully cooked product and fully cooked sweet potato is mushy and even a little bit of mixing, like that would be needed to make this dog food, would make the sweet potato unrecognizable.


I thought it was odd too...but since I couldn't see the chunks in the food, I guess I just didn't think that much about it.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: jarnI'm wondering too since the diet is home cooked - what is the bone content like (given the propensity for cooked bones to splinter, unless they are using ground bone)? I feed the dogs raw and bone really firms up their pooh - maybe the calcium/bone content is low?


I don't think there's any bone in the food, I think it's just a calcium supplement. We had bought some bone meal to mix into it, but stopped giving all of his supplements after this last bout of diarrhea. We wanted to try just the food for a couple weeks, and then introduce things back in to see what helped or made things worse. 

I'm going to start mixing in a 1/2 cup of Orijen at each meal, just to try and put a little weight back on him. If that goes well, we will try adding the bone meal to see if it helps.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlAs for his weight, he's VERY lean. His highest weight was 85 pounds, but you can feel every bone in his body. I think he's lost a couple pounds on this food, unfortunately.
> 
> We tested for EPI when he was younger and was having all these problems. It came back on the low end of normal.


I would either try to treat for critters (intestinal parasites like giardia or SIBO), or do a trial with digestive enzymes, or all of the above! One problem is after they have had problems for so long, they can develop numerous food sensitivities. But before switching foods again (unless maybe try the lamb if he's never been on lamb, it's the only one my boy can handle), I would make sure there isn't something medical going on.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI don't think there's any bone in the food, I think it's just a calcium supplement. We had bought some bone meal to mix into it, but stopped giving all of his supplements after this last bout of diarrhea. We wanted to try just the food for a couple weeks, and then introduce things back in to see what helped or made things worse.


These foods are supposed to be complete, right? Why were you adding bone meal?

Btw, neither of mine can tolerate any type of bone meal.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlAs for his weight, he's VERY lean. His highest weight was 85 pounds, but you can feel every bone in his body. I think he's lost a couple pounds on this food, unfortunately.
> ...


We had him on panacur and metronidazole to treat the giardia, and he had a clean fecal after completing the meds. I have been thinking about trying digestive enzymes...I'll have to talk to my vet about prescribing them.

I don't think we've ever had him on lamb, so that's something I can save and try. I think we've ruled out all the possible medical issues - he's had more trips to vets and specialists than I've had in my entire life! =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI don't think there's any bone in the food, I think it's just a calcium supplement. We had bought some bone meal to mix into it, but stopped giving all of his supplements after this last bout of diarrhea. We wanted to try just the food for a couple weeks, and then introduce things back in to see what helped or made things worse.
> ...


It had been suggested to me by the woman who I buy all my food from. His poop was actually a little better the couple days he was on the bone meal. It could have been a coincidence, but it certainly didn't make it worse. Do you think it's a problem adding it since there's no bone in the food?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirl
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LisaTThese foods are supposed to be complete, right? Why were you adding bone meal?
> ...


It seems to me, that adding bone meal to an already balanced diet is not something you want to do, which makes me question this woman that you buy the food from!

In theory, that food's calcium and phosphorus should be balanced when you get it, bone meal would throw that balance off. Now, if the woman could give a solid reason why more bone meal might be better (maybe they formulate it on the lower end or something like that), then that might make sense. Either a piece of the puzzle is missing, or this woman gave you some bad advice. Hopefully it's a piece of the puzzle that 's missing.

Rereading the first post, there is no diarrhea, only undigested food, and a lean dog. I would try some enzymes. You can do this with or without a prescription.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirl
> ...


Hmmm...she just said that she thought that one of the downfalls of the food was that it didn't have any ground bone in it, so she recommended adding it. It's totally possible she was wrong. Unfortunately, I'm not as knowledgeable of dog nutrition as I should be.

He has had diarrhea on and off his entire life. Right now, his poop is partially formed, soft, and has the undigested food in it. So it's not diarrhea, but it's not normal poop either. It's also light in color, and seems to be a large amount for what he's eating. Theoretically, this food should be very digestible, so there should be less poop.

What enzymes can I buy over the counter? For some reason, I thought they were prescription only.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Here's the nutritional data sheet: http://www.myperfectpet.net/docs/data_sheet_hunters.pdf


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You can just do a trial with OTC enzymes, and if it works, get a script from your vet so that you can buy through enzymeDiane and get a better deal.

Here are the ones I use here: https://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Zymes-Plus As long as your dog tolerates pork, an enzyme trial will be helpful. If your dog doesn't tolerate pork, then you have to try a plant-based enzyme. Btw, most do tolerate pork!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomHere's the nutritional data sheet: http://www.myperfectpet.net/docs/data_sheet_hunters.pdf


Thank you for posting the link to that. I should have done that.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTYou can just do a trial with OTC enzymes, and if it works, get a script from your vet so that you can buy through enzymeDiane and get a better deal.
> 
> Here are the ones I use here: https://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Zymes-Plus As long as your dog tolerates pork, an enzyme trial will be helpful. If your dog doesn't tolerate pork, then you have to try a plant-based enzyme. Btw, most do tolerate pork!


Excellent, thanks for the link! So how do I give the capsules? It looks like the dosing is for humans. 

Sorry I'm asking so many questions - I really appreciate everyone's help! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Enzymes are pretty individual. My 33 lb dog requires 3 times as many as my 77 lb GSD.

I would start with one at each meal. Most folks would empty the capsule into the food, then wait 20 minutes. I've always just given the capsule with the food (dipped in yogurt so he'll take it), and then feed. If they help, then there are all sorts of resources to help you get the right amounts, the right products, etc.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, that sounds easy enough. I'll go ahead and order a bottle of them. If they help, wonderful, and if not, back to the drawing board. =) Compared to all the money we've spent on him so far, these are a bargain. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good luck, I hope that they help!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just an FYI...you don't really need the script to buy from Enzyme Diane.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you so much! I hope they do too! =) It's kind of silly to spend almost 300 a month on dog food that he's not even digesting. =)

And thanks for letting me know that I don't need the script. I'm lucky in that I worked for my vet for four years, and she's a close family friend, so I get more leniency with these things than most people do.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Cool to know Ruth, that is what her website says, and I didn't know otherwise!

Hope this works PuffinGirl!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTCool to know Ruth, that is what her website says, and I didn't know otherwise!
> 
> Hope this works PuffinGirl!


Thank you, me too! It is SO frustrating to not be able to figure out how to help him! =( I hate seeing how skinny he is!


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

Gracie's on the low end of normal for EPI also (2.8) and we give her Natural Balance Lamb and rice - she does great on it. No enzymes at this point.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Natural Balance was the food I was going to try if we decide to start experimenting with allergy stuff. I will definitely keep that in mind to try! 

It's hard, because there seem to be so many variables and so many things to try - it's overwhelming!


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

It is incredibly overwhelming. Take it one step at a time. Before going to enzymes, unless the vet says to, try the food. Give it a good try - meaning no cheating with treats in between. I thought for certain we'd be going to enzymes last January but we started a Natural Balance food (and all was great until they changed the formula). The lamb/rice seems to be the most bland they have out there and <knock-on-wood> it's helping here. Never feel alone, never feel like you're asking too many questions or asking the same questions over and over. We've been there. We've done that. Learn from our experiences, mistakes and trials. We'll all hold your hand through this!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you for understanding! I just feel like I'll never get his issues sorted out, and it makes me worry that he's going to have long term effects from them. 

I'll talk to my vet about trying the enzymes and see what she says. We're going to keep him on the cooked food with Orijen mixed in for a couple weeks and see if there are any improvements. If there aren't, then we'll try the Natural Balance.

We've been great about not giving him treats. He hates it though. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There is no harm, no foul if you try the enzymes. There can be long term nutritional deficiencies that can build when a dog can digest enough food to be okay, but not enough to assimilate all the nutrients completely.

I managed Max for a long time with no enzymes, but I think adding that enzyme several months back is one of the big reasons why he finally added that 5 pounds that he's been struggling to gain for so many years.

It really is a personal preference (philosophy?). Good luck whatever you decide to do.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI can't seem to find a common problem - and oddly enough, he seems to do pretty well when we initially switch foods, but the longer he's on the food, the worse his poop gets.


Indy did this. She had multiple food allergies, bacterial issues, and also needed enzymes.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTThere is no harm, no foul if you try the enzymes. There can be long term nutritional deficiencies that can build when a dog can digest enough food to be okay, but not enough to assimilate all the nutrients completely.
> 
> I managed Max for a long time with no enzymes, but I think adding that enzyme several months back is one of the big reasons why he finally added that 5 pounds that he's been struggling to gain for so many years.
> 
> It really is a personal preference (philosophy?). Good luck whatever you decide to do.


That's what I'm afraid of. =( 

We should have the enzymes by the end of the week, and assuming the vet seems ok with us trying them, then I'll go for it. I figure that the worst case scenario - they make his problems worse, just means that I will stop giving them to him.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI can't seem to find a common problem - and oddly enough, he seems to do pretty well when we initially switch foods, but the longer he's on the food, the worse his poop gets.
> ...


Hmmm...interesting. We did have his poop cultured when he was younger, and that didn't show any abnormalities, so I think we took SIBO off the table at that point. I don't know if we should revisit it at some point or not. We did try Tylan powder though, just for the heck of it, and it didn't seem to make a bit of difference.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

SIBO won't show up in a culture, it's a blood test, and even that test isn't perfect. 

For Indy, she did best on panacur and amoxicillin. For Max's digestive issues, he did best on the tetracycline doxycycline. Both I suspect have tick issues though, that make their gut environment not work right.

Since you've done the Tylan, and lots of other stuff, that makes me think the enzymes should help. They certainly won't make things much worse. If they don't do anything, they'll just give the stools a strong smell.

Have you tried probiotics at all?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTSIBO won't show up in a culture, it's a blood test, and even that test isn't perfect.
> 
> For Indy, she did best on panacur and amoxicillin. For Max's digestive issues, he did best on the tetracycline doxycycline. Both I suspect have tick issues though, that make their gut environment not work right.
> 
> ...


Ooops...shows how much I know! I guess we could always consider doing the test for SIBO, just to do it, but I'm not convinced that's what it is.

Good to know about the smell thing - I'll pay attention to that. There aren't any adverse side effects to them, right?

Jones has been on probiotics almost continuously up until the last week or so. Last week, we got so fed up that we cut everything out other than food. Our plan is to get him stable on food alone (hopefully!!) and then we can start introducing back in his supplements slowly.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Probiotics help Indy a lot, not so much Max - I'm still trying to find what works for him.

I don't know of any ill effects of the enzymes. Even when Max was on ones that he was allergic to (pork issues), he did well for the first few days, then back to his usual, but with red eyes. So if anything like that happens, I'm sure that you will post!

With Indy, when she was on regular Prozyme first, it gave her mushy stools, but that's not a high quality enzyme product (that version has lactate in it, there is a newer better version I hear).

But no "bad" consequences, and if you are observant (which you are), then you'll get a sense, very quickly, of how he is doing.

I agree that you have to start with a base of food alone, except in the case of an enzyme deficiency. I sure hope that there is an easy fix for you guys!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I am certainly observant - too much so, I think! I'm not sure how many people pay as close attention to their dog's poop as I do. =) My friends and family all make fun of me! I think it's the curse of having worked at a vet's. It's like I know too much, so I worry about everything. It doesn't help that I'm a worrier at heart. =)

I'll let you know how things go, and I'm sure I'll have more questions!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It just means that you are part of the club, for better or worse!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a sneaking suspicion that there are way cooler clubs to be a member of, though!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)




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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

I just skimmed through this thread and can sympathize. I have two gsd with "gut" issues. Just thought I would share my thoughts/ideas.

1. How many clear/negative fecals did your dog have before you stopped treatment for giardia? It is very difficult to get rid of. My male gsd was treat for 4-5 months.

2. Love the Natural Balance Lamb/Rice dog food. It is the only food my male can eat--normal stool and no itchies. My girl does better on grain-free food.

3. Keep a journal of everything you are doing for your dog. My dogs' specialist recommended this because my head was just spinning.

4. I have had good look with serum food allergy testing. It is not 100% accurate but it's a good place to start.

5. Both my dogs were dewormed with Panacur 3 times. Fecals are not very accurate. Such a small stool sample is used that is really is not a good representative sample.

6. Fecal cultures can also be informative and it's a non-invasive procedure.

7. For probiotics, I have had great success with Enzymatic Therapy Pearls IC. Given once daily. Minimal ingredients...great for good allergy dogs.

8. Consider TLI, Folate and Cobolamine and SpecCpl testing. This test for Exocrine Pancreatic Insuffciency, SIBO, B12 deficiency and Pancreatitis.

9. Before my dogs were diagosed (via scope or exploratory surgery) with Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), I wished I would have done long term Tylan with probiotics along with a limited ingredient diet. Pepcid was also a big help.

10. Only make one change at a time.

11. Feeding several small meals throughout the day initially helped stabilize my dogs and with weight gain. Sometimes 1-2 meals is just too much for the GI tract to process. For my male, his body digest food slowly so having smaller meals helps.

12. Routine bloodwork--cbc/chemistries can be informative. Have you done this recently. Can help tell if the dog is fighting allergies, parasites, digestion issues (amylase, lipase, albumin), etc.

Okay, it's getting late and can't think of any thing else right now. If I do, I'll post it. If you have any questions, please ask or email me directly at [email protected]

Best of you to you and you pooch!!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great advice!


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

PuffinGirl....have we not welcomed you to the







club







It's a long standing joke how many of us can quote the volume, consistency and color of our dogs poo and how happy we get the day we get a firm one. 

So....WELCOME!!!!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JenM66PuffinGirl....have we not welcomed you to the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's such an honor.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: krazy_kilumI just skimmed through this thread and can sympathize. I have two gsd with "gut" issues. Just thought I would share my thoughts/ideas.
> 
> 1. How many clear/negative fecals did your dog have before you stopped treatment for giardia? It is very difficult to get rid of. My male gsd was treat for 4-5 months.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to post all the information!

He's just had one negative fecal, so I think we'll recheck that just in case. However, when he had giardia, his poop STUNK and was green, and that has resolved, so it makes me think it's gone.

Thanks also for the agreement on the natural balance - if we need to change his food again, that's the one we'll go with.

A journal is a good idea - I just started one for today!

Who does the serum food allergy testing? My vet has never done it before - does a dermatologist or internist?

He's been on panacur a couple times, and we did have his poop cultured when he was younger. There's was nothing noteworthy that showed up.

We did just do a full panel on him, and everything came back great, for what it's worth.

I don't have time to reply to everything else right now, but I read it all and I really appreciate all your advice! Thank you!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Here are some pictures I just took of Jones. Any feedback you guys can give me would be great! Sorry for the crappy quality - I took them with my Iphone and the lighting wasn't great.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirl
> Who does the serum food allergy testing? My vet has never done it before - does a dermatologist or internist?
> 
> This is who did the testing for me. Your regular vet can do it. Just have your vet call them to send for a kit. Maybe your vet will just charge you cost or maybe a draw fee.
> ...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I had the blood test for allergies for Indy, my regular vet did it (we used the VARL testing, I believe that LJsMom's vet used spectrum labs). It was a lifesaver for us too.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: krazy_kilum
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirl
> ...


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI had the blood test for allergies for Indy, my regular vet did it (we used the VARL testing, I believe that LJsMom's vet used spectrum labs). It was a lifesaver for us too.


Good to know! This definitely sounds like something we should consider.

Did you get a chance to look at Jones' pictures at the bottom of the last page? How do you think his weight looks?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oh, I'm glad you asked, I meant to comment, but forgot! (short term memory issues!)

I think he looks thin. I think his waist is very thin. I also think that because he is younger, his ribs haven't sprung out, which makes him look probably even thinner.

This is how my Max used to look, and he did not put on weight until I treated with the antibiotic doxycycline. I actually treated him on my own initially, told the vet after the fact. Tylan didn't work that well for him. Max also has significant food sensitivities, though I've never tested him.

If you look at his thinness, combined with cowpaddies, it's pretty clear that something is going on. 

He is a very handsome boy too


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for your opinion! Ugh, I hate that he's so skinny! =(

When you treated with the abx, what was your thinking behind it? Treating for SIBO? Trying to cover all your bases?

And thanks for the compliment - we think he's pretty handsome too, but he'd be way more handsome if he didn't look like a furry skeleton. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Actually, my boy had tick issues, but tested negative for everything. The abx were experimental, and I didn't want to put the vet in the position of okaying that, because I knew that she wouldn't be comfortable. As a weird side benefit, he started gaining weight, and just about everything about him got better for him.

Lots of dogs here do better on Tylan, but that wasn't the case for Max. I know a few other folks that used either tetracycline, or amoxicillin.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Oh, ok. I understand not wanting to have the vet approve the abx - I know mine is uncomfortable about trying some of these things, because she doesn't want to make anything worse. 

We did Tylan for about 10 days, and it didn't make any difference at all. I know it's a long-term medication, but he started getting better after being treated for the giardia, so we didn't think we needed to continue with the tylan. Additionally, he HATED it, even in capsule form, so it was a pain to get him to take it.

It's so tempting to try a bunch of different things right away to try and make things better, but I know that won't help. It's frustrating to have to wait this out though!

The plan, as it stands, is to continue with the grain-free cooked food, with a bit of Orijen mixed in, and then to add the enzymes when those come. If that doesn't seem to help, then I'll do the serum testing, and go from there.

I'm so tired of worrying about him! It seems like that consumes so much of my time (and it accomplishes nothing!). 

Oh - where did you get the abx without a script for them?


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

I have purchased Tylan online. Here is one website. You might want to search and see if you can find a better price and/or free shipping.

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&pf_id=16364

My "gut" dogs were on antibiotics, tylan and/or amoxi for almost 18 months. My dogs were such food hounds the Tylan powder did not deter them from eating.

You can also get amoxi without a script. 

You might want to consider a bland diet/limited ingredient diet before doing the serum test. It is my experience with my gut dogs is that they do better with foods lower in fat...some grain free foods can be pretty high in fat. My male used to weigh 72 lbs when i started the Natural Balance Lamb and Rice and now he is 86 lbs...not to bad for a 12 yr old momma's boy! If you want to stick with Grain-Free Natural Balance is an option. Out of all the Natural Balance Foods, the lamb and rice has the highest calories per cup...478 to be exact. For comparison, the other Natural Balance formulas contain the following kcals/cup:

Duck/Sweet Potato 427
Venison/Sweet Potato 409
Chicken/Sweet Potato 438.

Kilum is currently eating 6 cups per day and product poops that bounce!!! Some times, I think this is so much food but I don't care 'cause everything is normal!!


Question--How many cups of food per day are you giving Jones? How many meals?? How much does he weigh? I have some thoughts but need a little more info....

Sorry for the ramblings!! Hope it's helpful!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: krazy_kilumI have purchased Tylan online. Here is one website. You might want to search and see if you can find a better price and/or free shipping.
> 
> http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&pf_id=16364
> 
> ...


It's very helpful! =)

We feed J about 2 pounds of the cooked food, and 1 to 1 1/2 cup of Orijen mixed in. It's done in two meals. He weighs around 83 I think, unless he's lost more weight. His high was 85. We'll get a current weight on Friday.

You're really selling me on the Natural Balance food. My boyfriend actually bought a small bag of it at the store tonight, just to have on hand, as he's sold as well. So we'll think about how we want to proceed in the next week or so. It's so hard to know what to do and where to start.

I feel like I'm rambling too! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think I bought at Lambert Vet, but their shipping is high.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hahaha...with all the money we've spent, high shipping is nothing. =)


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Okay, Dante is only 15 months old. He is still a gangly pup. My male Kilum did not reach physical maturity until he was 3-3.5 yrs old. You will observe some odd stages with him until he matures. He weight and build right now is very appropriate for his age. I don't think you should obsess about it. Obsessing about poop on the other hand is perfectly OK!!! : )


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hahaha...I'll work on focusing my obsessing. =)

I alternate between thinking he looks ok and he's still growing, and panicking that we're somehow letting him starve slowly. I'm obviously quite nuts. =)

Actually, what started the concern about his weight was that he lost 2 pounds after being switched to this cooked food. As I don't know his current weight, I'm not sure if he's lost more.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Going from a regular kibble to a food that is higher in meat protein and lower in carbs and starches, will cause weight loss, but it should help support the muscles.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTGoing from a regular kibble to a food that is higher in meat protein and lower in carbs and starches, will cause weight loss, but it should help support the muscles.


Ok, then that was probably it. It concerned me because he didn't have much weight to lose to begin with! Muscle support is good though - I'm trying to keep him very fit. We do a lot of walking/hiking/etc.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

An update on Jones:

He went to the vet today to have his ears rechecked from an ear infection he had a couple weeks ago. The bad ear last time looks perfect, the good one looks bad now. =( I guess the canal is so swollen she couldn't even see to his ear drum. We're now flushing the ear once a day and putting Animax in it twice a day. He's getting neutered next week, and they're going to do a thorough flush while he's under.

His weight was down to 80 pounds. Needless to say I'm getting very concerned. =( We're redoing the TLI next week as well.

We started him on the enzymes Wednesday night. He's getting one capsule sprinkled in the food per meal. There's maybe a slight improvement, but nothing huge. For his lunch today I let the powder sit for 15 minutes, so I'll see if that makes any difference. We may also try increasing it to two capsules per meal.

We're going to do serum allergy testing in a month or two when his ear is cleared up and he's been off the meds for 30 days.

I was really hoping for some good news at his appt today. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Bummer about the ear, and everything else.

Do try two of the enzymes, and let sit for 15-20 minutes. I would not give them for 2-3 days before the TLI test, just to be sure. Be sure to fast for that test, and make sure that they add the B-12 and folate, which will help check for bacterial overgrowth.

You might want to consider the Natural Balance Lamb and Rice, a small amount, just to see how it works?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I was wondering if we should stop giving them before the test. I had a feeling it could potentially affect the results. And thanks for suggesting the add-ons. I'll talk to my vet about those.

We actually substituted the lamb and rice for the orijen tonight with his dinner, and his poop was still loose with pretty much no form. We'll try it for the next couple days and see what happens.

He's been scarfing down his food, which is unusual for him. I was attributing it to him loving the cooked food, but I'm starting to wonder if the voracious appetite is a symptom too.

I'm not sure if I should try just the NB kibble for a couple days and see what happens, or if I should continue mixing the foods. Ugh...getting sick of this. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Use your instinct, pick one of your options, and stick with it a few days. Ask yourself the question of what to do, and sleep on it, maybe tomorrow morning you will have an answer?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

So, I thought about it last night and this morning, and decided to do a couple days of all NB lamb kibble and see if there were any changes, good or bad. We're still going to feed him in 3 meals, as the smaller meals will hopefully be easier for him to digest.

He scarfed down his breakfast, so I'll have to see how his poop is throughout the day. =)

I know I'm kind of all over the place, but I'm afraid to do anything for too long if it's not working, and cause him to lose more weight!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's understandable that you are all over the place because you've tried so many things.

I hope you see some improvement! When are the tests scheduled for?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah...we have tried a lot over the last year! So the problems are definitely not from lack of effort on our part. =)

The tests are scheduled for next Thursday. He was scheduled to be neutered on Wednesday, have his hernia repaired, and have his ear flushed, but I wasn't comfortable putting him under GA until his weight has stabilized.

On thursday we'll recheck his ear, and if it is still looking bad, we'll have it flushed under sedation. We're going to do the TLI, folate, and B12 at the same time.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Okay, so best not to fiddle too much until then.

The only other thing that I might mention, is some l-glutamine (powder of capsule) between meals...to help repair the digestive tract. Maybe something to think about for a future time.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah...that's what I was thinking. I actually am going to stop the enzymes now too, as they don't seem to be making much difference. He's just getting dry NB three times a day. I want to get as accurate a result as possible.

Thanks for the suggestion of l-glutamine. It's definitely something to try at some point.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I"m anxiously awaiting the blood results......


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

you and me both =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Warning, there's a longish vent/ramble ahead...

I talked to my regular vet tonight about Jones. She'd been out of town the last couple times he'd been in, so we'd been seeing relief vets - I've known them for years though, and completely trust them.

Anyway, she wanted to talk to me about what's been going on with Jones and share her thoughts with me. She's been a family friend for years, our vet for many years, and I also worked for her for four years, so I do trust and respect her, but I'm a bit frustrated right now.

First, she said that there's no accurate way to test for food allergies, so there's no reason to do the plasma test. I understand that the test wouldn't be 100% accurate, but it had seemed like a good place to start at least. She seems to think there's no point in doing it, and that the only way to determine if food allergies exist is to do food trials.

She also has suggested putting Jones on Purina HA a couple times. First of all, the food is ridiculously expensive. That's not even the problem though - we wouldn't mind spending the money, if I felt like it was a good food. The ingredients look terrible to me though - there's no meat at all in the food! It seems like such an extreme move to make, when there are so many allergy diets on the market that seem to have much better ingredients, and that could potentially work. She completely disagrees with me on the analysis of the ingredients though, and thinks that people get way too hung up on what ingredients are in dog food - that it's more important how much research goes into it.

She wants us to go to an internist again, which is what we've been wanting to do anyway. We'll start with an ultrasound, and then move on to an endoscopy if he thinks it's appropriate.

We're doing the TLI, B12 and Folate tests on Thursday, so I'll hopefully have the results of those by this weekend. His ear flush will be on hold until his neuter, which will be in the next week or two. I've been flushing and medicating it at home, and it doesn't seem to be bothering him so I think we're fine to wait on that.

It seems like every vet you talk to says something different - I know everyone has good intentions and wants the best thing for Jones, but I wish there was some consistency among doctors!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have to agree with your vet. Blood tests for food allergies are notoriously inaccurate and generally a waste of money. Elimination diets are the only reliable way to check for food allergies/sensitivities.

For people that don't want to go to the hassle of an elimination diet, HA can be a good place to go. No one with a dog with terrible GI problems is going to complain about a diet as long as it works so if the HA works, don't look at what's in it.

Endoscopy can be very helpful in finding out what's wrong. Sometimes you can only keep trying to treat the symptoms only so long before you have to go for an endoscopy to get a diagnosis.

The other blood tests are a very good idea too.

Your vet seems to have her finger on all the tests to do for diarrhea dogs.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlFirst, she said that there's no accurate way to test for food allergies, so there's no reason to do the plasma test. I understand that the test wouldn't be 100% accurate, but it had seemed like a good place to start at least. She seems to think there's no point in doing it, and that the only way to determine if food allergies exist is to do food trials.


There are enough folks on this board that will dispute this. There is no way an elimination trial worked for my girl because of her numerous issues. I had to do both, but I never could have done it without the blood allergy tests as a starting point.



> Quote:She also has suggested putting Jones on Purina HA a couple times. First of all, the food is ridiculously expensive. That's not even the problem though - we wouldn't mind spending the money, if I felt like it was a good food. The ingredients look terrible to me though - there's no meat at all in the food! It seems like such an extreme move to make, when there are so many allergy diets on the market that seem to have much better ingredients, and that could potentially work. She completely disagrees with me on the analysis of the ingredients though, and thinks that people get way too hung up on what ingredients are in dog food - that it's more important how much research goes into it.


This is the classic issue with vets knowing very little about nutrition. You have to stick to your guns; sometimes you have to find a new vet if it gets bad enough.



> Quote:She wants us to go to an internist again, which is what we've been wanting to do anyway. We'll start with an ultrasound, and then move on to an endoscopy if he thinks it's appropriate.


The problem with a number of those tests, is that the treatment is all the same - you've either got infection or an inflammatory condiiton. My personal opinion is that I would rather spend the money on the food allergy tests, treat for infection, and then address inflammation and leaky gut syndrome.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

> Quote:We're doing the TLI, B12 and Folate tests on Thursday, so I'll hopefully have the results of those by this weekend.


To me, this sounds like a good idea to check again. Since it sounds like you have been dealing with problems for awhile, I imagine you have already done tons of research. If you have not already checked it out, here is a site with information on EPI/SIBO/B12 problems.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/

Keep a log of everything that goes in and comes out. Try not to make too many changes at once and give them time to take effect. Sometimes it can take a week or two when trying things like enzymes/tylan/b12/probiotics before you see positive results. Good Luck!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ElaineI have to agree with your vet. Blood tests for food allergies are notoriously inaccurate and generally a waste of money. Elimination diets are the only reliable way to check for food allergies/sensitivities.
> 
> For people that don't want to go to the hassle of an elimination diet, HA can be a good place to go. No one with a dog with terrible GI problems is going to complain about a diet as long as it works so if the HA works, don't look at what's in it.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm just hoping that we can find a food that works and that I'm more comfortable with. My first priority though (of course) is his health, so if HA is the only food that works for him, then of course we will put him on it. I'm just very conscientious about what I eat, so it's hard for me to ignore what's in the food I feed my dog. I didn't mean to sound like I don't want what's best for him though!

If our internist feels that an endoscopy is the way to go, after we get the results of the lab work, then we'll definitely do it. We really just want to get to the bottom of what is causing him problems.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlFirst, she said that there's no accurate way to test for food allergies, so there's no reason to do the plasma test. I understand that the test wouldn't be 100% accurate, but it had seemed like a good place to start at least. She seems to think there's no point in doing it, and that the only way to determine if food allergies exist is to do food trials.
> ...


I don't expect the allergy tests to be completely accurate, but it would be nice to have SOME idea if he has allergies, and what they could potentially be. And even if they didn't tell us anything, then at least we could feel like we tried it. We're both of the opinion that we would like to take advantage of all possible diagnostic options available to us, especially when they're minimally invasive ones like blood tests.

The food issue is a very sensitive one for me - and unfortunately, it would be quite uncomfortable to switch vets. We will do it if we have to, but my hope is that by dealing with specialists as well, we'll be able to get a nice balance of opinions. The internist we're seeing is very open to alternative diets, including raw diets, so that makes me comfortable with him.

I understand what you're saying about the additional tests - I think we'll discuss this all with the internist and let him help guide us. He's very well respected and I've had great experiences with him, so I trust his opinions.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AK GSD
> 
> 
> > Quote:We're doing the TLI, B12 and Folate tests on Thursday, so I'll hopefully have the results of those by this weekend.
> ...


Thank you so much for the link! I've indeed done a TON of research. I haven't spent too much time perusing the EPI websites, as I'm going to wait and see what the labwork says on Thursday. Based on that, I'm sure my research will become more tailored.

I started keeping a log of everything Jones is eating and pooping, so hopefully that will provide some useful information.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I thought I'd post a quick update on Jones-the-Lemon. =)

I took him in today to have his ears rechecked and discuss his labwork. His ear looks better, and the swelling is down. I guess there's a wax plug in the canal, but overall, it has improved.

All of his labwork came back within normal limits. The folate and B12 are right in the middle of the normal range, and the TLI is still on the low end of the normal range (7.7). 

His weight is holding steady, and he's not gaining or losing. She said that he's obviously thin, but not enough for her to be super concerned. We discussed food allergies/sensitivities, and she still said she didn't think any testing would be accurate, but she was going to look back at notes she has from various dermatological conferences she's gone to.

Because we still don't have any real answers, we made an appt for tomorrow at 9 with the internist to have him ultrasounded and possibly scoped/biopsied if appropriate. So, I guess we'll see what he has to say, and go from there.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Keep us posted.

I still think a low TLI is meaningful.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Another update on Jones:

Today I took him to the internist. They scoped him and took some biopsies. We won't have the results for several days, so of course I'm going to worry until then! The doctor said that Jones was too skinny for his liking. He also has a shepherd with GI issues, so I think he's really interested in Jones and what we'll find. 

And oddly enough, I just took Jones on a walk, and his poop was some of the best poop I've ever seen from him. After a long, stressful day at the doctor and anesthesia! It makes no sense to me...

Anyway, so now we wait for the biopsies. Any happy thoughts would be appreciated! =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTKeep us posted.
> 
> I still think a low TLI is meaningful.


Wow...we posted at the exact same time! =)

If the biopsies don't show anything, then I'll definitely discuss the TLI with the internist, and see if he recommends giving enzymes a good shot. My regular vet thinks that even though it's low, it's still within normal range, so not indicative of any problems. So, I'll see what the internist says, and go from there. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'd rather treat the symptoms than the bloodtest.

Max's last TLI was about 11, and he needs enzymes.

Be sure to get a copy of the report and post it!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I definitely agree with you about treating the symptoms. I don't have a copy of the TLI, B12, and Folate, but I know that the TLI was the only one that was not right in the middle of the normal range. They did some more labwork today before anesthesia. Almost everything was normal. His PLT was low - I'm not sure what that is. His Cl was high - again, not sure what that means. I'll see if I can get my boyfriend to post the results from today.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

low platelets...any recent vaccinations? Any tick exposure? Do get a copy of all the blood counts and post them here. Low platelets are often a sign of tick disease.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He had a rabies vaccine a few weeks ago. That's the only vaccine. No tick exposure that I know of. He's been on frontline plus since we've had him. 

The bw should be posted soon! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Frontline won't prevent tick attachment, it just reduces chance of disease transmission









Vaccination can cause something called hemolytic anemia, which will reduce platelet count - can't tell if that's what's going on here though. Rabies vax will also increase antibodies against the thyroid, and other things that are happening in the body that we can't see


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlHe had a rabies vaccine a few weeks ago. That's the only vaccine. No tick exposure that I know of. He's been on frontline plus since we've had him.
> 
> The bw should be posted soon! =)


And here it is now...

Jones Blood Work (PDF)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTFrontline won't prevent tick attachment, it just reduces chance of disease transmission
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm...is there another topical that works better than frontline? I wouldn't necessarily even want to use one, but we do a LOT of hiking in areas that are infested with ticks, so I feel like I need to use something.

As far as vaccination, I had to give him the rabies, as that's required by law here, but I don't know that I'll give him any other vaccines without titering. I'm not sure what can be done about it now, though. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

High CA with low sodium would be indicative of Addison's, but the Ca is still normal, and the sodium didn't look odd. I think Addison's can hide....I don't know if younger dogs would have a higher Ca.

The platelets are really a concern. I would run a blood count in several weeks, and if it doesn't improve, I would run a tick panel. The RBC count doesn't look bad at all, but the RDW is at the low end - I don't know much about that one since our panels here don't include it, but it's an indicator (I think) the rate at which the body is regenerating red blood cells. Next time you have him into the vet, might want to have the vet check to see if the spleen is enlarged, and trapping too many platelets. Max gets an enlarged spleen on occasion, haven't figured it out (ultrasound was clear). If the platelets resolve, then that may point to this being a response to the vaccination.

Just kinda weird stuff, nothing definitive.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just read about the hiking.....definitely follow this up. If it's a tick issue, that will affect everything that's going on right now. 

I don't know about tick repellants, I wish I had a good answer that I was comfortable with.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTHigh CA with low sodium would be indicative of Addison's, but the Ca is still normal, and the sodium didn't look odd. I think Addison's can hide....I don't know if younger dogs would have a higher Ca.
> 
> The platelets are really a concern. I would run a blood count in several weeks, and if it doesn't improve, I would run a tick panel. The RBC count doesn't look bad at all, but the RDW is at the low end - I don't know much about that one since our panels here don't include it, but it's an indicator (I think) the rate at which the body is regenerating red blood cells. Next time you have him into the vet, might want to have the vet check to see if the spleen is enlarged, and trapping too many platelets. Max gets an enlarged spleen on occasion, haven't figured it out (ultrasound was clear). If the platelets resolve, then that may point to this being a response to the vaccination.
> 
> Just kinda weird stuff, nothing definitive.


Thank you so much for all your feedback on the bw! We can certainly recheck the cbc in a few weeks - we had a full cbc/chem done at the beginning of January, and I believe everything looked great then, so I don't think this has been an ongoing problem. Definitely worth a recheck though.

Is the enlarged spleen something that could be felt by palpating the abdomen? My vet did that yesterday, and didn't mention that anything felt enlarged. 

As far as the hiking/ticks go - Jones has had this problem since we got him, so I don't know that it could be related to ticks. He came from Chicago in the winter, and it was cold/wet when he got here, so I don't think he could have picked up any ticks that long ago. I guess I wouldn't know for sure though. Is there one tick panel that tests for everything, or are there multiple that you have to run?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good that the vet just palpitated the abdomen - if the spleen was enlarged, he should have felt it, that's how they found Max's.

These dogs, geez, Max has lived in CA, Colorado and Oklahoma, who knows what they can pick up, where, and what the mom can pass on.

I would be curious about the previous cbc, if the platelets were normal, but at the low end (indicating a slow decline of platelets), or whether they were more in the center (indicating more of a sudden dropped, say, from a vaccination).

I hope the platelets resolve and it's not an issue. A tick panel depends on the lab the vet uses, none of them test for everything, and all tests have some faults. I am so jaded about false negatives now that if there was a suspicion, I wuold just run a course of doxycycline, which is what I did - max tested negative for everything.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Wow...this is overwhelming! There are so many things to consider. I think I need to rule out/in one thing at a time. We'll see what the biopsies come back showing, and if they're normal, then I'll discuss the platelets with the internist. I'll see what he would suggest doing.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would look at the platelet value of the last blood test. That is useful and will give you meaningful info!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I actually got it today - it looks like on January 9th the count was 156. So it's gone down a little bit, but I don't think significantly. I'll talk to the internist and see if he thinks that it's a problem, and when we should we repeat the test.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Sounds like it isn't the vaccine.

I would not let the internist dismiss this.

If *anyone* wants to treat this with pred, in case the think it's an autoimmune issue, I would make them add doxycycline, in case there is infection. You don't want pred alone if there is any possibility of infection.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok, good to know. When I talk to him about the biopsies, I'll discuss this with him. We did talk about doing a trial of pred, but he also mentioned doing an abx trial on the off-chance it might help. I'll make sure we don't do pred without the abx, if that is suggested.

Thank you for the head's up! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yeah, and maybe talk to him about the antibiotic doxycycline, in case there is a tick issue?

Do keep us posted!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Will do! Is doxy the only one that works for tick issues?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's the one that works for most of them. Some of the more powerful abx will carry risks of more serious adverse reactions. So it's essentially the broadest one, and the safest one.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Interesting, I didn't know that. I'm learning way more than I ever wanted to about random doggie illnesses! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI'm learning way more than I ever wanted to about random doggie illnesses! =)


Welcome to my world


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hahaha...I wish there were prettier beasties than ticks in your world. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Well, at least I have dogs


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

You're lucky you've got that going for you.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes I am!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok, so the internist just called and we have a diagnosis. I guess he has pretty severe IBD. He's going to be put on Imuran and Metronidazole, and a prescription low fat food. We're doing a tick panel tomorrow, and will be repeating his CBC/platelet count in two weeks. 

Now I'm off to do some research to figure out what we're up against. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

This isn't surprising, since IBD just says that there is an inflammatory process going on - GSDs have a variety of inflammatory processes going on that exhibit in many ways, and that's about always the diagnosis when they scope for something like this.

Imuran is an immune suppresant (much like cyclosporin), and the metro will help with critters in the gut and inflammation. Watch for nervous system side effects from the metro, some dogs will have them. 

You can very often do better not on a script food, but I understand that you are working with the internist here for now.

keep us posted on the results of all the blood work, etc.!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I guess that they said this was a much more definitive diagnosis than they normally see, and certainly more than they expected. I guess it's good that we finally have a direction to take. 

He's been on metro before, and hasn't had any side effects so far, but I know that they're a possibility so I will definitely keep a close eye on him. (Like I ever don't!) =)

As far as diet, I would really like to find something other than a prescription diet for him to eat once we get him stabilized, but I feel like we should stick with the scripted food at least for the next couple months. I just went to the WDJ website and purchased every past article that looked like it would be helpful. I've now got quite a stack of reading to do. 

I will let you know what the results of the tick panel says - is that normally an overnight test?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think the bloodwork takes longer than that.

I bet if you scoped 1/2 of the dogs on the GSD health board, they would have some version of IBD. I am not at all dimensioning the diagnoses at all - it's good that you have it, and that you have a direction to go in. If you can get this under control, it will also help prevent other serious things from developing down the road.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI think the bloodwork takes longer than that.
> 
> I bet if you scoped 1/2 of the dogs on the GSD health board, they would have some version of IBD. I am not at all dimensioning the diagnoses at all - it's good that you have it, and that you have a direction to go in. If you can get this under control, it will also help prevent other serious things from developing down the road.


I'm glad to know it's common - that makes it seem much less scary. It's always an icky feeling to find there's something wrong with your dog, so it helps to know that other people are dealing with it as well!


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Sorry to hear about the diagnosis but at least you have one. 

Both of my gsd, Kilum and Queen, have confirmed IBD. They are under the care of an internist who is truly amazing. Both my dogs were started on Imuran, Prednisone, Pepcid, and either metronidazole or tylan. Plus they started a hypo allergenic diet. Most IBD dogs have food allergies. I started with z/d ultra...did not like the ingredients but saw positive results. I would not hesitate using an Rx diet to start. After a few weeks/months, I had normal poops but slow weight gain then I transitioned them the Iams Rx Kangaroo and Oatmeal. The dogs experienced weight gain. I did not like the price of the food but it helped. Keep an open mind.

Good luck to you and Jones!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! The internist doesn't want to put him on pred right now because he's so young, and he is still feeling great, so I guess we can consider that in the future if we need to. 

We'll start with the low fat royal canin they suggested, and if he starts doing better in a month or two, I may look into switching the food. I found that the restricted calorie natural balance has very similar levels of fat and fiber, so it may work. It's chicken based, but so is the RC. Ultimately, we'll feed him whatever we have to feed him to help his tummy and put some weight on him. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's very likely that you will have to go to a novel protein. I'm surprised that the internist isn't having you do this now?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He didn't mention that - it seemed that the level of fat in the food was what he was focusing on. I guess if we don't see improvements though, we'll try a novel protein.


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## kkalligher (Jan 29, 2010)

Check out the following website:

http://www.morrisanimalfoundation.org/sp...CFQYMDQodCxK6Hw

splenomegaly is generally a result of the spleen engorging with blood cells.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ack...I'm not sure if you linked me to the correct website. The link you sent me was to something about anemia in dogs which often kills them within weeks of diagnosis, so I am desperately hoping that's not what you think Jones has. I did not see mention of splenomegaly, and like I said, I don't think his spleen was enlarged, as he's been to both the regular vet and the internist in the last week and neither one of them commented on it.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

The vet just called and all of the tick panels came back negative. So...I'm not really sure where to go from here. We're rechecking his platelets on Friday, so we'll keep a close eye on that. I guess if they continue to decrease, I'll talk about trying doxy even though they're negative. Ugh...why can't there ever just be an answer to these things?! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I live in the world of no answers with my dogs, it is very frustrating









If the platelets don't come back up, I would go for a trial of doxy. If the vet doesn't agree with it, I would do it on my own. That's what I had to do with Max. He actually gained about 10 pounds when I did that, he was so skinny before that.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ack...for some reason, that seems scary to do a trial of abx without the vet being on board. I guess I'll do what I have to do. 

And I share your frustration! I just want clear diagnoses with clear treatments - is that too much to ask??? =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Do only what you are comfortable with. It took a long time for me to make that decision, and it was with careful deliberation and thought. I also had a dog that was sick for a long time....

Low platelets are usually treated with antibotics or prednisone. If they use pred, and there is infection, there will be an initial positive response to the pred, which will make you think it's working, but then there will be a decline of some sort, as the infection starts taking a hold in a body whose immune system is being suppressed by the steroids. The platelets might get better, but other subtle things start going wrong.

If the tick tests we have were better, without as many false negatives, and if we were able to test for all the possible diseases out there carried by ticks, mosquitos, ponds (at least one "tick disease" is contracted by drinking pond water), etc., then we could be more sure. But our testing has about a zillion downsides to it.

There are other reasons for low platelets, and they can be serious. The doxy with the pred just helps control one variable. Hopefully your internist will combine the two if the platelets don't resolve.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I will have to put some thought into what I want to do from here. It's hard to believe that it's something too serious, as he feels great, and has so much energy, but I guess it could be something serious in the early stages. In that case, I would be very glad we caught it early. Right now he's not on pred, as the internist was hesitant to put him on it. He did say that the imuran is fairly slow acting, so we have a month or so to figure out what's going on with his platelets before the imuran really kicks in. We'll be keeping a very close eye on his levels in the meantime though.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Whatever it is, you have caught it early, which is great.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That's what I'm hoping. =) And we'll do whatever it takes to get his fuzzy butt healthy. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)




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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

For Kilum and Queen, their internist started them both on on Pred and Imuran. Since the Imuran is slow acting, the pred was started just to help get it under control more quickly. Queen was 14 months old when she was diagnosed. She was on pred initially but eventually weaned off after a few months. Initial dose was high but slowly tapered the dose after improvements were observed. Also, bloodwork was initially done monthly---cbc with albumin. Albumin is used as an indicator for digestion. The blood work should be done fasted. 

Kilum always had low platelets so he took two Pet Tab Plus.

Kilum was weaned to a low dose of pred 5 mg every other day. Queen is now of all meds and is doing well with a controlled diet.

Their internist initially treats IBD aggressive and slowly alters medication protocol depending upon the dog's physical improvements (or lack of) and bloodwork.

Just thought I'd share my "experience" with meds and IBD. 

Hugs to you and Jones!
Heather


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for sharing that! =)

He definitely said he didn't want to use pred at this point. I'm not sure if it's because the symptoms aren't that bad right now, or if it's some other reason. His weight has been holding steady, and his poop isn't terrible, so maybe he's hoping he can avoid using it. I don't know. It's interesting how every doctor seems to have a different approach to treating it. It'd be helpful if they could get their stories straight. =)

What food do you feed your babies? 

We're mixing the Pinnacle and the RC right now to transition him, and he seems to be doing fine. His poop has been a little better, but that could be coincidental, or from the metro, or from some other reason I haven't thought of. =)


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Foods that worked for my IBD dogs:

Rx Hill's z/d ultra
Rx Iams Kangaroo/Oatmeal
Natural Balance Lamb/Rice
Nature's Logic Lamb
Nature's Logic Venison
Acana Provencial Lamb
Pinnacle Trout
Natural Balance Duck/Sweet Potato

From food allergy testing, I found what foods to stay away from. So it really helpd narrow down what foods to try. 

My IBD dogs can handle high fat content. With feeding a low fat food be prepared to feed a LOT of food. I was surprised how much food i was feeding my dogs--8-10 cups. After they were stable, I slowly transitioned them to a more calorically dense food. I just could not afford to feed that much food. Plus, the output was just too much also.

Good luck!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I can't believe how much food they suggest feeding - almost 9 cups of the RC! It makes sense I suppose, but feeding that much seems like it would be hard on him too. The Pinnacle trout seems to work fairly well for him, so I emailed my vet to see if it might be a possibility to keep him on that, add the meds, and see how he does. Right now he's getting 1/2 and 1/2 of the script food and the pinnacle, and I'll keep him like that until I hear back from her.

He looks like he's gained a little weight to me, so I'll be curious to see what the scale says on Friday. It wouldn't be the meds, because he's only been on those for a couple days, but it could just be rebounding from his bad bout of diarrhea a while ago. 

We're still going back and forth on the allergy testing. My vets concern is that since it's unreliable, it could steer us in the wrong direction. We've got a few weeks before we could even do it anyway (because of steroids in ear meds), so I'll continue to think about it.

Thanks again for all your information! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: krazy_kilum Albumin is used as an indicator for digestion.
> 
> Kilum always had low platelets,,,,


Can you explain more about the albumin?

Did your vets have any explanation for the platelets? With IBD, is there any type of bone marrow suppression?


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Lisa,

Hope I remember this correctly...it's been along time.

Albumin is a blood protein. If albumin is low, there is leaking of blood proteins from the intestine into the bowel contents. 

Low platelets (Thrombocytopenia) is a potential side effect of Imuran/azathioprine.

The bone marrow suppression is created with the administration of immunosuppressive drugs like pred and azathioprine.

Hope that answers your questions!!! If not, let me know.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Why is your vet recommending a low fat diet? Is there anything in the bloodwork/path report indicating this? Is Jone's albumin low? 

Honestly, I think the Pinnacle Trout is pretty low in fat. I'd stay on that if he is doing well.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He said that these dogs tend to do better on a low fat food. I didn't really question it, because I didn't know much about the disease when he called me. 

I'm inclined to try him on the Pinnacle too, but I'll see what my vet says. And if he does well on the mixture of the two, then maybe I'll even try that for a while. Whatever works. =)

I don't know whether they checked his albumin, so I can't comment on that. I don't know if it's on any of the labwork they've done.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: PuffinGirlI don't know whether they checked his albumin, so I can't comment on that. I don't know if it's on any of the labwork they've done.


Albumin can generally be found on the chemsistry panel.

With having two IBD dogs, I kept a copy of all path reports, bloodwork results, urinalysis just in case. I did this just in case of an emergency or if I had to board my dogs expectantly. I just kept everything in a three ring binder. At one time four of my six dogs were seeing specialists. This is the only way I could keep my head from spinning.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: krazy_kilumLisa,
> 
> Hope I remember this correctly...it's been along time.
> 
> ...


Thanks Heather, I was thinking the platelets were part of the disease process, not the treatment. As a response to Imuran, that makes complete sense. Jones has low platelets before treatment, and it seems low normal on the previous test too.

Jones has high normal ALB and low normal GLOB. I was thinking that the shift meant something, but I don't know what.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I do need to be better about getting copies of labwork. Thanks for the reminder! =) There is SO much to try and keep straight in my head!

That's a little concerning that the treatment could lower his platelets further. Hopefully by keeping a close eye on it, we can intervene if they start getting dangerously low. The vet was saying that the only way to find out for sure why the platelets are low is to do a bone marrow test. This would tell us if he's not making enough, or if his immune system is attacking them. That just seems like such a drastic step to take. =(

Lisa - thanks for checking on the albumin. That's weird that his is high. He's a mystery. There needs to be a Dr. House for dogs!


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Was Jones fasted for the February bloodwork?


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

My whippet mix had bone marrow biopsies done three times---twice by the internist---did not get good samples. Third time it was done by a surgeon---46 slides were submitted---found out that she does have poor bone marrow production. She can't tolerate any meds--so all I can do is to make sure she eats and keep her away from sick dogs.

The bone marrow aspirate procedure is painful and barbaric looking. I was able to observe...would only do it if necessary. I feel so bad my whippet had to have the procedure repeated.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He was fasted because of the anesthesia. 

Your poor doggie. That sounds like it was awful, and exactly what I was afraid of.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thought I'd post a quick update on Jones. His weight yesterday was 183.5, so he's gained about 3 pounds back, so that's good. His platelet count was 144 though, so it's continuing to drop. =(

I didn't want to get the vet who's working today involved, so I'll talk to one of my regulars on Monday and see what she thinks. We'll recheck it again next Friday. Everything else was WNL, so I suppose that's good, but I really wish I knew what was causing his platelets to continue to decrease. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Imuran, an immun suppressant can make it worse in two different ways. One, it's an immune suppressant and it is probably listed as a possible side effect of the drug, suppressing bone marrow production. Or, if there is an infection, it is making the infection worse by allowing the infection to gain an upper hand. 

An easy thing to do would be to get this dog on doxy ASAP and see if it makes a difference. I would not do any more testing, particularly invasive testing, until you try this first. It's cheap, it's non-invasive, and it's possible that there is no test that will pick up what the infection is, particularly if it's a tick disease.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I think that's what I will discuss with the vet on Monday. The only testing I'm doing right now, and the only testing I have planned are the repeat CBCs so we can keep an eye on his levels. But I think it's definitely worth giving doxy a shot, so hopefully the vet is open to trying it!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I hope so too. 
.
IF the doxy doesn't make a difference in those levels, you could be looking at something like Babesia (one of the few tick diseases that does not respond to doxy), or something more serious, like an autoimmune destruction of the platelets, or some other serious blood disease that we don't yet want to talk about


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Hmmmm, if it's autoimmune destruction of the platelets, I wonder if the Imuran shouldn't help with that? That would be a good question for the internist!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ugh...I can't even think about it being something super serious. =( He feels great, and looks great, so I have to assume right now that it's not something major. 

I'll talk to my vet on Monday, and will likely also call the internist to get his opinion on where we should go from here.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I saw my vet last night, and she brought up wanting to put Jones on doxy all on her own, so yay! =) We'll do a three week course and re-evaluate. I think I'm going to keep checking his platelet level every week to see what's going on with them.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I sure hope that it helps. For my 75 pound boy, a low/moderate dose is 200 mg twice a day. I hope that she doses roughly equivalent, 2.5-3 mg per pound. The aggressive dose, which is recommended on the tick list, is 5 mg per pound, twice a day.

:fingerscrossed:


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

She prescribed 200mg twice a day for three weeks. I guess if we see some improvement, but not as much as we hope for, then we'll try increasing the dosage.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

His bloodwork says he is 80 pounds, so that is a good starting point. I sure hope that it helps. It really helps Max's digestive stuff too.

I'm glad it was her idea


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I hope it helps too! She seems to be optimistic that it will, so I will be too. =) And I am SO glad it was her idea! I was not looking forward to arguing with her about it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Take note of how he looks and is acting, digestion, eye redness (if any), so then you will remember to compare it to a week from now!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I'll definitely pay attention! What is the importance of the redness?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Eye redness can be an indication of inflammation, allergies, infection, etc. Max has it, and it gets better on doxy, but he has eye issues too (pannus).


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmmm...ok. He seems to have seasonal allergies, but his eyes have been good recently. I'll definitely keep an eye on them though. And I already keep a journal of his eating/poop, so I'll keep a close eye on that stuff as well. He's under constant supervision. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LOL :thumbup:


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

It's just a good thing he doesn't really realize it - otherwise I think he'd be self-conscious by now! =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Time for the weekly update on Jones! =)

We rechecked his bw yesterday, and his platelets are up to 166! Needless to say, I was THRILLED with the improvement, but still have no idea what's going on. Either the imuran is kicking in, or the couple days of doxy have done something already. 

I'm rechecking again in 2 weeks to see how the levels are, and then we'll keep a close eye on them once he comes off the doxy. 

His weight is also holding steady, so that makes me happy. He did have terrible diarrhea this morning for the first time in a couple weeks, so that was discouraging. Darn dog is making me crazy!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

:groovy:

I'm betting it's the doxy, and I wouldn't take him off it while he's still on the Imuran.

You might try some probiotics???


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmmm...they were planning on keeping on the imuran for at least 6 months - would you keep him on doxy for that long?! 

As far as probiotics - he's getting gastriplex with every meal, which has probiotics in it. He's getting it at the same time as the doxy twice a day, which I know knocks out the probiotics, but he's also getting it at lunch, so I'm hoping he's getting some benefit from it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would, becuase it sounds like his ibd might be more infectious related than autoimmune.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmmm...interesting. I hadn't even thought about that as an option. I'll have to talk to the vet and see what she thinks. 

Thank you for the advice! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good luck, it might take some trial and error getting the meds right.

I hope he is tolerating the doxy, it can be tough on the system, but so can Imuran.

Hang in there.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

So far he's been doing well. He seems to feel great, and he looks good, so that's reassuring to me. I'm hoping the diarrhea this morning was just a fluke and tomorrow morning he'll be back to doing better.

I just wish there was an easy right answer!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I hope it's a fluke too :fingerscrossed:


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He was back to his so-so poop instead of his awful poop this morning, so that made me feel better! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Well, it's moving in the right direction!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That's what I'm hoping! =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I thought I'd post an update on Jones since it's been a while. He took his last metro last night, so I'll be curious to see if that makes any difference. He's due to finish his doxy on Tuesday, so I need to talk to my vet to see what she things we should do after that. 

We had his platelets rechecked today, so I'll know the results of that tomorrow. I really hope they've continued to go up. If we take him off the doxy, I'll have them rechecked in a week to see if there's been any change.

His weight is still good - right at 85 pounds. He's still lean, but I think that's more a combination of his high level of activity and the fact that he's intact. 

The poop situation is still frustrating. He'll have a couple days where his poop is good (for him at least), and then he'll have diarrhea for a day. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. And even when it's good, it starts out nearly perfect, and then gets a lot softer towards the end. 

Overall, I think he's doing better, but I was hoping to see more of an improvement by this point!


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I would start by putting your dog on California Natural. This food only contains a rice and a meat. And stay away from foods with corn, wheat, glutens or soy in them.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not going to be changing his food for quite a while, as we're trying to get him stabilized first. We've had him on so many foods trying to find one that works, and I am sure that hasn't helped the problem. =(

I did look at that food the other day, and I like that it has the limited ingredients. It's definitely something to consider for the future when we can start addressing his allergy issues. 

Right now he's getting mostly Royal Canin Low Fat, with a small amount of Wellness Core Reduced Fat mixed in. I would love to transition him to the Wellness exclusively at some point, if he does well on it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Sometimes the metro can have that effect too - believe it or not, loose stools can be a side effect. It probably is a combination of the food and his disease process.

You can probably guess that I'm real nervous about coming off the doxy, but I know that you guys are keeping a close check on those platelets. *Definitely* curious to see the latest numbers!!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Huh...that would be weird if the metro was contributing to the diarrhea. That would be too easy of a fix for Jones though!

I'm a little nervous about stopping the doxy too, but my vet keeps insisting we only needed to do a three week course of it. I'm going to recheck his levels about a week after we finish it to see if there's any drop, and then go from there. I will definitely be keeping a close eye on this! =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ugh...I just called the vet, and his platelet count is now down to 133. =( This is so frustrating. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oh, that's not good. That could either be whatever the internal problem is, or the Imuran (he's still on it, right?).

I'm curious to hear what the vet has to say, this is very frustrating!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He's still on the Imuran, so I guess it could potentially be that. I talked to my vet and one of the other vets from the clinic today, and they both think that keeping an eye on it is the way to go right now. The lab says his platelet count is adequate, and he's not at a critical point yet, so we'll just keep an eye on his bw. He's got another cbc scheduled for next Friday. 

I also talked to both of them about continuing with the doxy, and neither of them would recommend it, so I guess we'll see what happens when he comes off of it.

I hate having to wait and see, but I'm not sure that we have any other real options at this point. He feels good and he looks good, so I gues that's what really matters. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I see no reason not to continue it. It's safe long term, and might be helping keeping those platelets in the adequate range. You're giving something that is a heavy duty immune suppressant, and negative on tick tests doesn't mean that there are no tick diseases. Logically, I wouldn't agree with them.

I guess if his platelet level remains adequate, then he doesn't need it. I just hate experimenting like that, because the stakes are high.

:fingerscrossed:


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I see where you're coming from, and I completely understand what you're saying. I have the same concerns, and that's why I'm going to keep such a close eye on his bw. I guess I'd like to try working with the vet, and trying it her way, before I propose my own approach. If his levels decrease more while being off the doxy, I will definitely talk to her about putting him back on it. It's a tough position to be in - I don't want to argue with my vet, but I also want to be proactive with Jones' health.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok, so my vet just called me and we talked for quite a while. She wasn't working today, but she went into the clinic this afternoon and had a chance to look over Jones' labwork. She isn't sure that his platelets are actually even low - or certainly not as low as the numbers indicate. I guess all of his labwork notes that the platelets are clumping, so it's hard to get an accurate count of them. The lab's number they're giving is the minimum number, and they are saying that the number is adequate. 

I think what we'll do next, just for our own peace of mind, is have a hand-count done of his platelets to get a more accurate count of them. I hope that number will come out higher. 

She also is happy with his progress so far since starting the imuran. It's hard not to get discouraged when he's still having diarrhea occasionally, but overall he's doing better than he was.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

That all sounds good. If they are clumping, then the actual count should be higher. The hand count is more accurate. 

If the platelets are dropping while on doxy, that's another whole ballgame, and you don't really want to go there. I'm glad it sounds like this really isn't the case. So glad that your vet was there and took the extra time to look over the blood work and have that conversation with you!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I was really glad she called me too. It made me feel better - though I won't be entirely comfortable until we do the hand count. It's been hard for me to believe that there's something seriously wrong with him because he feels SO good and has so much energy. So I'm hoping that I was right in my wishful thinking! =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think you are right


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I sure hope so! And thank you again for all of the advice and support you have given me. I really appreciate it. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

No problem at all! I just hope that you get Jonas better for the long term!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Me too! We've been struggling with his health since almost the first week we got him. It definitely took away some of the excitement of having a puppy.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Glad to hear Jones is doing well!!

Queen who had confirmed IBD sounds just like Jones--does look or act sick--just has trouble putting on weight and loose stools.

Queen had her first exploratory surgery with full thickness biopsies at 8 months of age. The path report was indicated some inflammation but extremely mild. The internist did not want to start such an aggressive treatment with immunosuppressants so she had has do antibiotics/pepcid for long periods of time plus food allergy testing. No consistent improvement was observed--Queen who is sable looked like a coyote.

At 16 months, she has another exploratory done. The path report reveals moderate/severe IBD along with helicobactor. Within a few days of starting her aggressive IBD treatment, stools became completely normal. And have been ever since. She is now 4.5 yrs old. She is now off all meds. Her IBD is controlled by diet. 

IBD can be so difficult to diagnose/manage. It is great that you are seeing improvement with Jones. Don't hesitate to share your thoughts/concerns about Jones' treatment. Sometimes vets can get stuck in a rut and need help thinking outside the box.

Hugs to you and Jones!!


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

tried going with BARF yet?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

krazy_kilum said:


> Glad to hear Jones is doing well!!
> 
> Queen who had confirmed IBD sounds just like Jones--does look or act sick--just has trouble putting on weight and loose stools.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your experiences with Queen! Jones' poop is definitely not normal, but it's better. I would love to eventually be able to control him with diet, but I'm not really sure how to go about that. How long do you keep them on a food before deciding it's not the one for them? And do you risk exacerbating the problem by trying to find a food that works for them? 

I definitely don't think the prescription diet is "the food" for him, as I haven't noticed any vast improvements since being on it. Ideally, I would like to transition him to Wellness Core Reduced Fat, but I'm doing it VERY slowly, so I have no idea how he's going to do on it.

I talked to the vet again about adding pred to the mix to see if we could make bigger improvements with him, but both vets are very hesitant to use pred in a dog as young as him. I guess it's a possibility in the future though, if we can't get him under control.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> tried going with BARF yet?


Hmmm...I don't think we've tried BARF yet, but we did try several home cooked diets, and none of them seemed to work well for him. Soft poop and lost weight. And right now, I'm so scared to change anything else for fear of setting him back. I guess raw can work for some of these dogs, but again, I'm so afraid of making things worse!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

PuffinGirl said:


> I can list the foods he's been on, and how he's done on them.
> 
> Solid Gold Wolf Cub - I put him on this when we got him. He did ok initially, and then started with the diarrhea.
> 
> ...



I can - CARBS.

There is no bagged kibble that is CARB free. Grain free, yes - but they still contain carbs.

You mentioned that you did a home cooked diet. Did it contain any carbs? Rice, potatoes, etc.

I would seriously think about doing either a home cook or raw CARB free diet.

Also, check any supplements you are using for carbs and the other items high on the allergy trigger list - yeast, flax and alfalfa.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm going to reveal my ignorance here - dogs don't need carbs in their diet? Even the cooked diets had carbs - brown rice or sweet potatoes. It didn't even occur to me that we could do a diet without carbs.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Dogs have no dietary requirements for carbohydrates. That doesn't mean they are good, bad or that a dog should or shouldn't eat them- it simply means that they don't need them. But without carbs a lot of dogs can't digest well the high fat that often comes with all protein diets- this will depend on the dog. If IBD is suspected a high fat diet probably won't work as the high fat can be very irritating to the digestive tract.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

PuffinGirl said:


> I'm going to reveal my ignorance here - dogs don't need carbs in their diet? Even the cooked diets had carbs - brown rice or sweet potatoes. It didn't even occur to me that we could do a diet without carbs.


Dogs do not have the physical ability to digest carbs. They do not have flat teeth nor can their jaws move side to side - both necessary to break down grains/carbs in order to get the nutrients.

Cows have multiple stomachs and regurgitate their food in order to chew it more and more. THEY are designed to eat carbs.

My dogs haven't had carbs as a staple part of their diet. Mauser is 17 months and never had carbs after 8 weeks of age. Spike is 5.5 months and has never had carbs - he was weaned directly to a carb-free raw diet. Tazer and Winnie are both over 10 and haven't had carbs in their diet in over 8 years.

Nope - they don't need them. Some dogs can handle them without problems. Some dogs have alot of problems with them.


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## Shawneeshep (Dec 26, 2004)

I do remember your original post.....my now 4-year old had similiar problems from the onset....and to this day, I have her on digestive supplements....wide range of probiotics, digestive enzymes; found what worked for her and I am sticking to it.
She is very lean, close to 70# but not bones sticking out; vets are very happy with her weight. The one supplement that I use that I think made the biggest difference is Holistic Solution digestive granules; needs to be refrig.

good luck


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I concur - homecooked, grain free (or raw). I don't feed grains.

I would also add a digestive enzyme - I think that was discussed awhile back?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmmm...this is all very interesting. I'll have to do some research about it. I have him on Gastriplex right now, which I believe has some digestive enzymes in it. We have had him on a grain free diet off and on, but I can't say that I notice much of a difference. Wellness Core is grain-free, if we're able to transition him onto that.

And the diagnosis of IBD has been confirmed - the internist told us that he would likely do best on a low fat diet. Is it possible to do a low-fat raw diet?


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

PuffinGirl said:


> How long do you keep them on a food before deciding it's not the one for them? And do you risk exacerbating the problem by trying to find a food that works for them?


I would give a food a good 6-8 weeks as long as symptoms were improving. I did not look for perfection in the beginning. You certainly do risk making things worse by changing things. I read in one of your posts that you are giving a supplement "Gastriplex". Products that have a lot of ingredients can also hinder forward progress. Many dogs with IBD also have food allergies. So, it is easier to give what I call "clean" supplements. Simple products that have a minimal ingredients. Honestly, I did not give any supplements except very potent multi-strain probiotic. This was done at the advice of the internist. My dogs only received Rx meds and limited ingredient diet. One of my IBD dogs saw fast improvements. The ssecond IBD dog it took several months. But I knew I was on the right track because of weight gain and improved stools.



PuffinGirl said:


> I talked to the vet again about adding pred to the mix to see if we could make bigger improvements with him, but both vets are very hesitant to use pred in a dog as young as him. I guess it's a possibility in the future though, if we can't get him under control.


Another facet to my dogs' treatment was altering medication dosages. Initially, Queen who was down to 49 lbs was taking extremely high does of Imuran, Pred and Metronidazole plus a few others. Kilum who was down to 72 was taking 75 mg Imuran and 40 mg Pred plus other meds. You might want to talk to your vet about altering/adding meds for a couple weeks to see if their is improvement. After about 6 weeks, the pred doses came down. Queen was weaned off all meds. Kilum took 25 mg Imuran and 5 mg Pred every other day. The doses were tapered at a very slow rate as not to surprise/shock their symptoms.

In regards to raw foods and immunosuppresants, I would strongly discourage it. Queen when starting her aggressive Rx drug therapy, contracted a fungus called valley fever. She did not respond to the normal treatments. She ended up having to be hooked to an IV pump for 8 hours a day, 3 days per week for one month. The internist said that it was because of the meds that made her reaction so severe. Dogs with a normal, healthy immune system can handle the bacteria found in raw foods. But dogs taking meds like Imuran, pred, budesonide, are not always able to fight off bacteria/infection. 

Hugs to you and Jones!!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I guess I was thinking homecooked, meat and vegetables, no grains, low starch. Grain free kibbles are typically high in starches.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Looking at the ingredients in Wellness, it doesn't look like it's high starch (from what I can tell anyway). The first three ingredients are meat, which makes me happy. I would love to have him on a food that has quality meat, higher protein, and not all the crap that's in the prescription food. 

Jones has been on his meds and the prescription food for about 5-6 weeks now. I've been mixing the wellness in for about 2 weeks, and probably will continue the slow transition for the next several weeks. Then I'll see how he does on it. Assuming that there's no major backslide, I'll keep him on it for at least 6-8 weeks to get a good feel for it. He's definitely doing better overall, and has gained back the 5 pounds he lost. 

Thanks for mentioning the concern with the gastriplex. He seems to be doing ok on it right now, but I will definitely keep it in mind!

If we don't continue to see improvement, I will talk to the internist about playing around with the meds to see if we can find a regimen that gives him bigger improvements. Like I said, they're both really opposed to giving him pred, so I'm not sure what else we could add into the mix.

Thank you for mentioning your experiences with raw feeding and the immune suppressive drugs! I had not thought of that, but I can see how it would be a concern!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

We had the hand-count done yesterday, and they came back 174. So he's in the normal range, albeit a low normal. We're going to recheck again in a couple weeks, and then a month after that, and assuming the number remains about the same, then we're going to assume all is ok.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Glad that the actual count is higher.

Is he on or off doxy?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He is off the doxy - he took his last dose Tuesday morning. I'll be curious to see what the number is in 2 weeks, when he's been off of it even longer.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Me too. 

If you see anything like a bloody nose or the symptoms noted at his link: Thrombocytopenia in Dogs , then I would have him looked at sooner.

Okay Jonas, you're supposed to get better now!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Oh, absolutely! I worked at this vet hospital for 4 years, so unfortunately am all too familiar with those symptoms. =( 

If he so much as looks at me wrong, he'll be back in there to be checked. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

:thumbup:


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

My mom's female has IBD...initially he vet gave her a pres. med as a means of managing the problem....she did not want to use this med long term so we looked at diet to manage the problem....Faith eats half Wellness Core (fish blend) and half home-cooked. The home cooked does not contain beef (beef seems to be an allergy and caused increased bouts of IBD with her). It does contain various veg. and small amounts of grain such as millet or oats on occasion. In addition, she gets fish oil and psyllium added to each meal. If she has a flair up (hasn't been one since last summer and it was stress related) slippery elm (powder form available at your health food store) added to her meal seems to take care of it. She has not needed a prescription med. in well over a year. Don't know if it would work for you, but we have had great success..... Good luck!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for sharing that! I do hope to eventually control him with diet so that we don't have to give him meds long-term. The supplement we're giving him now has slippery elm in it, along with some other things that are supposed to be good for intestinal health. 

He seems to be doing better the last week or so (fingers crossed!), so I'm hoping that he's starting to have some consistent improvements. Stress and excitement do seem to play a role for him too. If he gets really worked, it seems like his next poop is always softer. Maybe he needs valium. =)


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

glad to hear he is doing better.....Faith took some time with meds to get it under control but once that happened it seemed to be much easier to be able to just use diet as a preventative.....there will be the odd set back so don't get too worried when it happens.....oh, forgot to add, a good digestive enzyme also seems to help.....it must be nice to finally see the light at the end of the tunnel through all this!!!! keep up the good work...

"Maybe he needs valium. =) "
hahahahaha, I hear ya on that one!.....


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

The set backs are frustrating! I am trying to look at the big picture though, and appreciate the fact that he's showing some improvement. And I have a feeling he's never going to be a "normal" dog, so I'll have to come to terms with that. 

I think the gastriplex has some digestive enzyme in it. I'll have to double check. I also have some other stuff I could try again, to see if it helps him now that he's feeling better.


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

So I just skimmed through most of the post's on this. Sounds exactly like Jake, we went through all the same things. Ended up with he's just sensitive, for a clinical name; IBS. He is on Gastriplex by Thorne. Works wonders!

He still get's boughts every once in a while, but it can always be tied too .. a treat he wasn't supposed to have or over excitement at doggy daycare. We have more good days than bad ones now.

We (vet and myself) are keeping our finger's crossed that he grow's out of it. There are 2 major things that nipped it in the butt:

Gastriplex
"Cool" Diet (eastern medicine)

Good Luck!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Jones is on Gastriplex as well - it seemed to have great reviews, so I figured it was worth a shot! He's definitely doing better, but honestly, I'm not sure how much of that is attributable to the Gastriplex. It certainly can't hurt though!

What do you feed Jake?

I'm hoping as Jones gets older he grows out of it a little too - at least grows out of the excitement that causes some of the issues!


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

As pup he was on Merrick PuppyPlate . . did not work out good at all. Jake also had severe reactions to his puppy vaccines. We now pre-treat with Benadryl. We titered him before his 1 year old shots, the results were like he had never been vaccinated at all. The vet attributes it to an 'over reactive' immune system that just rejected the vaccine as a pup. We plan to titer again before he's due for the next round. The Benadryl helped alot, no reaction to the DHPP, we are going to do the Lepto separate. As I digress . . back to the food.

We went from the Merrick to California Natural Lamb & Rice. Did awesome on that for about 6 months, then got bit by a spider. After that he could never tolerate that food again. That's when we started the Gastriplex and the 'cool' diet; Fish (white), Pork or Duck. NO chicken, chicken fat or red meat. So we ended up with Acana Pacifica (same company that makes Orijen, lower protein level). He did the best on that food until they changed their ingredients, added more Salmon. He started vomiting it up and diarrahea. After trying all the other Fish food out there, I'm talking I tried probably 6 different ones, we ended with California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato. Knock on wood, doing good and likes to eat it. He got bored with the Acana after awhile.

I know it's frustrating. Jake can't have ANY treats it seems like, everything throw's him off. We have resulted to boiled hamburger and 'treat's' made out of his kibble. Basically grind up the kibble until it's flour like, mix with water until it's dough like, cut out and bake. I've added no sugar applesauce and bannana's, seems to work ok.

As far as the Gastriplex .. I'm with you on that I'm not exactly sure how much it helps, but it does something. He was with out for about 1 month (was on back order). He seemed to do about the same as he did with it for about 2 months. Then it all went down hill again. We have not idea why . . started him back on it and it fixed it.

For now we are just leaving well enough alone. He's gaining weight finally, he'll be 2 in about a month, so he should be done growing and can thicken up. We have more good days then bad days 

The vet has said we have 1 other option. Try some 'eastern' medicine 'cooling' herbs in his food. But my vet is pretty confident as time goes on, he will grow out of it.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Very interesting...it seems like they have similar reactions to food. They'll do fine on something for a while, something sets them off, and then they can't eat it anymore. That's also interesting about the fish - Jones has always done fairly well on fish too. Right now, we're looking to transition him to the wellness core reduced fat, which has poultry in it, so we'll see how he does. They also have the fish variety, so that would be something to try too.

That's awful about the vaccines - what a stressful thing to deal with! We haven't vaccination J for anything but rabies since he was a puppy, so I'll probably do a titer for the distemper and parvo at some point and see what his immunity is like. 

Thank you again for sharing your experiences with Jake! It's interesting to read what works and doesn't work for other dogs.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ugh, I'm so frustrated! =(

Jones has been doing so much better, and then today, for no reason that I can figure out, has had complete diarrhea both times he's pooped. Nothing has changed. He hasn't eaten anything new and hasn't had anything particularly stressful or exciting going on. 

I fed him several small meals today hoping that would help, but he had diarrhea tonight, so it didn't seem to. Just needed to vent.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You stopped the doxycycline, that's what changed.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

But we stopped it 10 days ago. If that was it, wouldn't it have shown up sooner?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Not necessarily.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I know you think we should keep him on the doxy, but I guess I'm just not sure why we should. Right now there's absolutely no sign of any infection - apart from his platelets that appeared to be low, but are likely not, every other count in the CBC is normal. 

I'm not trying to be difficult or argue with you, but I guess I just don't understand what the thought is behind keeping him on it.

I ran into my vet today while walking Jones, and talked to her for a minute. She's going to have us start him on 20 mg of Pred EOD, hoping that will help him.

What was weird about this bout of diarrhea was that it's very much like he got into something he shouldn't have - urgent, liquid, mucous, all that disgusting stuff (which is completely different from how his diarrhea normally is), but there is nothing he got into. I'm going to take a fecal in tomorrow on the off-chance that he has giardia again. 

I overcooked some white rice for him this morning, and I'm giving him very small meals of that with a little canned salmon mixed in. I'll see how he does on that for the next couple days.

I was reduced to tears this morning by the frustration of this whole situation.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There are two reasons for the doxy. I am concerned about the platelets and there being a tick disease infection of some sort; it does not matter that the tests were negative, as all tick tests have a false negative component, and that's assuming that the right diseases were tested for.

It is possible that the doxy can control the IBD. I would have tried to wean off he Imuran rather than the doxy, but most vets would do what was done in your case. Now you have your boy on Imuran AND pred, and both of those are scary meds. Doxy is a powerful immune modulator. The doxy and niaminacide protocol might help, and I would rather treat with the least damaging of drugs. The others scare me for the long term, and it's also possible that the platelets are a side effect of the Imuran.

But none of that matters, since I'm not going to convince the vets of any of that. However, when you can't get them stable, and you have to keep adding more powerful meds, then it might be time to start evaluating what you might do different. Acupuncture for the digestive system? Homecooked diet? homeopathy?

I guess I am hoping right now it's a giardia issue? The immune suppressive drugs could bring it out.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok...I understand that now that you've explained it, and I will talk to my vet about it. We haven't put him on pred yet, and I won't until I talk to her about it more. This is a tough position to be in though, as I trust my vet, and the internist is very well respected. 

The problem is that no one knows the "right" answer, and we have to try things and see if we can find something that works. I'm really trying to do the absolute best I can for my dog, and it's scary not knowing if it's really the right thing to do.

I thank you again for your help and your advice, and don't want you to think I'm discounting anything you're saying - but I also have to work with the vets and consider what they think the right thing to do is.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

No, I realize that you aren't discounting what I say. I know that you are working with folks that you do trust, but also that those kind of folks go about things different than I would. 

I would be using diet and supplements and alternatives as a first defense. The next would be immune modulating drugs, but I would start with the safest ones, that might hit two birds with one stone (the doxy, immune modulating and for infection), and if that doesn't work, then up to the big guns. 

The Imuran, the pred, those are the big guns. There aren't many places to go if those don't work. I also think that most of these things are best solved with minimal drugs if possible, which means really jumping into the alternatives. With your boy being so young, I would be emphasizing treatments that work towards improved long term health, rather than trying to manage symptoms. I know the docs think they are doing that, but my opinion is that these treatments don't improve health, they manage conditions.

Now the GSD immune system can be pretty messed up, which means that none of this is easy


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I've already been thinking about a lot of these things - where do we go from here if this doesn't work? Believe me - it terrifies me. I'm in tears as I'm typing this. I am desperately trying to get Jones healthy, and we had been doing so much better until the last couple days. I'm just going to have to do some thinking about how I want to proceed next.

Do you have any recommendations for holistic vets in the San Diego Area?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

These chronic illnesses are so very difficult, I completely know how you are feeling.. 

I'll ask on the other board and see if folks have any knowledge of a good holistic vet in that area. Like any other vet, there are good holistic vets, and bad holistic vets. I hope that we can find you a good one.

I can tell you, I never made progress with the dogs here, unless I had a plan. I've often had to fight to have the vet listen to it, and try out some of the things that I've wanted to do, but it's usually paid off.

With IBD, I would start with a homecooked diet with nothing pre-prepared, no grains, low starch, and then go from there. I'm also big on throwing the kitchen sink at a problem and attacking it from all sides.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Here you go:

Holistic Vet in the San Diego area? - GermanShepherdHome.net

Holistic Vet in San Diego area?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That would be great if you could check on vets!

I feel like I've had a plan, and I feel like he was improving, so that's what is so frustrating about this setback - it came out of nowhere.

Do you have any recipes for a homecooked diet like that? Or a link to a website that does? I really want to make sure that I'm meeting all of his nutritional requirements.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

LisaT said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Holistic Vet in the San Diego area? - GermanShepherdHome.net
> 
> Holistic Vet in San Diego area?


Thank you!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

PuffinGirl said:


> Do you have any recipes for a homecooked diet like that? Or a link to a website that does? I really want to make sure that I'm meeting all of his nutritional requirements.


I've sent you a pm.

Remember, right now, his nutritional needs really aren't being met, part of the disease process


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the pm! I'll see if they have any recs down here.

I know he's not getting everything he should right now. =( A couple days ago I would have said he was, but now he's quite clearly not. =(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You will figure something out, Jones is in good hands, it will just take more time.

On the flip side of everything I said, krazy kilum used all those meds and was ultimately able to wean off of them, so I might be all wet. How helpful is that????

Hang in there, you will find the right way :hugs:


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the hugs. It's just so frustrating to be willing to try anything and everything and not be able to help him! I'm doing some research into holistic vets, and asking some people down here for recommendations, so hopefully I can find someone good to take him to.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There's still a couple of pm's I'm waiting for replies on.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you so much for doing that. I really appreciate it. =)


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

wow, sorry to hear about the set back....it's always tough.....I would have to agree with what LisaT has to say:

"I would be using diet and supplements and alternatives as a first defense. The next would be immune modulating drugs, but I would start with the safest ones"

A good homemade diet and homeopathy would be where I would head.....but that's just MO.....You were looking for recipes....there's lots out there, just quick here's two sites (careful about what foods you choose if you don't know about allergies and sensitivities), but you may want to invest in a good book.....Dr. Pitcairn's Natural Health for Dogs and Cats has been very helpful for us......

Home food for cats and dogs
DogAware.com Articles: Introduction to Homemade Diets for Dogs

I'm not sure where you're at with the diet at this point, but I can say it also took us a while to figure out beef was a trigger for our girl Faith.....once she went to homemade with chicken and turkey it really made a difference...... while we were going through what you are now, my mom did decide to use Salazopyrin because getting it under control became very hard......it worked very well (was a tough decision b/c she wanted to stay away from that type of med.); but it did take a little while for the new diet to really kick in.....though ever since she has not had one bout.

Hang in there!....it will work out in the end....


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks so much for the links and for sharing your experiences with Faith. I would of course prefer to be as conservative as possible with the meds, but we've had no luck for over a year, so I felt like meds were our only good option at this point.

I am using some supplements that are supposed to be good for IBD, and will continue to use them. The diet is still up in limbo - prior to this last bout, he was eating 50/50 of a prescription low fat diet and wellness core reduced fat and had been doing well. And then something set him off this weekend, so I'm hoping I can get it under control and we can go back to that mixture until I can find something better.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

PuffinGirl, when Indy was young, she had terrible digestive problems. Just what she went through should have made her an honorary GSD. This lasted for a couple of years. I never had any invasive testing done on her.

She would be fine for awhile, and then everything would go to heck. I just couldn't get her stable for any length of time. What that was all about, was that in spite of everything I tried for her, it became clear that she would never heal while on kibble. There are too many "irritants" in kibble, and it is not consistent enough.

It is possible, that a diet change alone, may help you get Jones stable with the medication plan that you have now. If the diet isn't right, the body won't be stable, and you'll have flairups. This may or may not be relevant in your case.

There is a book out, The Specific Carbohydrate Diet, Breaking the Vicious Cycle: The Book that talks a lot about Leaky Gut Syndrome and what kind of foods will help heal it, which will help with IBD, IBS, Crohn's, etc. For humans, it's a very difficult diet to follow. I find the information about the gut extremely helpful, the diet not as helpful. For the dogs, I've followed a simple rule of meat, veggies, and flax primarily (with supplements) and haven't used her diet. When my mom had all sorts of digestive problems, I put her on the same diet 

Just something to add while you are mulling things over.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you for the book suggestion! The couple that makes the home-cooked food Jones was on for a while is going to do some experimenting to see if they can make a food that works for him. I'll forward these suggestions on to them and see if they can incorporate them into the diet. They've been awesome and have volunteered to make sample batches of food to see if we can find one that works for him.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

Sorry to here about Jones' flare.

Have you considered having Jones tested for food allergies? Before you change foods or supplements, I would strongly recommend it. I had great success with serum food allergy testing. They are not 100% accurate but they can help narrow down your search and possibly let you know if any of the supplements are the culprit. What is nice with the food allergy testing is that there is a basic panel plus you can add on additional foods you think are suspect allergens. Here is the company I've used The Spectrum Group

Also, when either Kilum or Queen would have a flare the specialist would have us go back to our previous treatments/protocols. Also, take into consideration environmental stressor as they can cause a flare.

Hugs to you both!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Another thing you should consider is the fact that a majority of dogs that suffer from IBD also suffer from SIBO. Only about 40% of dogs actually come up positive on the folate test for SIBO though. If he was doing well on the doxy, I would speak to the internest about doing a long term treatment for SIBO. It wouldn't hurt. The long term treatment consists of Tylan, doxy, or Flagyl. However, the Tylan has the smallest chance of negative side effects. The treatment would also need to last a minimum of 6 weeks.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

krazy_kilum said:


> Sorry to here about Jones' flare.
> 
> Have you considered having Jones tested for food allergies? Before you change foods or supplements, I would strongly recommend it. I had great success with serum food allergy testing. They are not 100% accurate but they can help narrow down your search and possibly let you know if any of the supplements are the culprit. What is nice with the food allergy testing is that there is a basic panel plus you can add on additional foods you think are suspect allergens. Here is the company I've used The Spectrum Group
> 
> ...


We have definitely thought about it - but it seems that all the vets think they're unreliable enough that they could actually be a detriment to us (meaning they could throw us off track). It may be something to re-address though.

I have definitely noticed that stress or excitement can cause Jones to get worse, but this time there was absolutely nothing that would have caused him to get worked up, so that's ruled out.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

jaggirl47 said:


> Another thing you should consider is the fact that a majority of dogs that suffer from IBD also suffer from SIBO. Only about 40% of dogs actually come up positive on the folate test for SIBO though. If he was doing well on the doxy, I would speak to the internest about doing a long term treatment for SIBO. It wouldn't hurt. The long term treatment consists of Tylan, doxy, or Flagyl. However, the Tylan has the smallest chance of negative side effects. The treatment would also need to last a minimum of 6 weeks.


We did have him tested and he came up negative for SIBO, but I didn't realize that the percentage of false negatives was that high. When I talk to the vet I will also discuss this with her. We have some tylan left over from a previous trial with it, so it would be easy enough to start it again and see if it makes any difference.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just to beat a dead horse







....some of us use doxy for SIBO


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Hahahaha...you're such a doxy peddler. =)

Jones' poop was much better this morning, so the rice seems to be doing the trick for the first time ever. I talked to my vet for a long time last night, and we both think he much have gotten into something or drunk some bad water or something to cause this latest episode, so assuming I can get him stabilized, we're going to hold off on the pred for now. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and see if he continues to improve. 

I'm taking a fecal in to have it tested, so we'll see what that says.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

[It is possible, that a diet change alone, may help you get Jones stable with the medication plan that you have now. If the diet isn't right, the body won't be stable, and you'll have flairups. [/quote]

BINGO!.....if you are worried about the time involved, we were able to do it with a diet of half Wellness Core Fish, half home cooked and several supps....my mom didn't have the time to do all home cooked.....she only prepares once a month and freezes.....may or may not work for you.....just another idea.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm sure there's a diet out there that would work well for him, but he's already been on SO many different diets, and I don't want to exacerbate the problem by switching him around even more. My goal is to get him somewhat stable, and then do some experimenting with foods. I'm not opposed to cooking for him, so I'll have to do some research to see what that entails.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

[email protected].

I don't know if you have joined yet, but this is the link for the IBD support group on yahoo. They have loads of great information. Also, with an IBD dog, they can do wonderful on the food you have them on but out of nowhere start having issues again. Alot of times, when that happens, you have to switch the protein they are eating. They will need to be started on a new novel protein diet.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

jaggirl47 said:


> [email protected].
> 
> I don't know if you have joined yet, but this is the link for the IBD support group on yahoo. They have loads of great information. Also, with an IBD dog, they can do wonderful on the food you have them on but out of nowhere start having issues again. Alot of times, when that happens, you have to switch the protein they are eating. They will need to be started on a new novel protein diet.


What do I do with the email address? Is that how I join? :blush:

When you have to switch to a novel protein, can you eventually go back to what they were eating? Because at the rate Jones has issues, he'd be out of proteins in about 6 months. =)


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

You send a message to them for membership. You will be emailed a questionaire to fill out with all of the info about your dogs. Once it is approved, you will be able to join the group. I am also going to try to post a long message sent to me about IBD dogs.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Ah, I see. It's like a secret club. =)

I'll send them an email now. Thank you again for suggesting the group!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Please also understand that list members are not veterinary/medical/health care providers or professionals and cannot give veterniary/medical/health care advice. The list is not a substitute for appropriate veterinary consultation, examination, diagnostic testing, and supervised treatment. These are additional reasons why we generally limit membership to those owning or caring for dogs which have confirmed diagnoses of IBD.

When possible, path examination of tissue samples can be extremely
helpful wrt diagnosing gi conditions because it will actually look
for a number of other diseases/conditions in addition to IBD. If IBD
is confirmed, information on the type, location, extent and severity of
the IBD may prove extremely helpful in tailoring an initial treatment
plan. IBD is a highly individualized disease, and treatment needs to be tailored taking into account the particular dog's disease state, dietary history, and response to various meds/diets.
It is also important to keep in mind that unfortunately a number
of IBD dogs actually can have multiple auto immune disorders, and/or
secondary conditions, and not just IBD, and the as yet additional conditions may be
contributing to the difficulties of stabilizing the dog's condition.
For example, with Addison's disease, symptoms in some dogs can be the same or very similar to IBD. Addison's cannot be ruled out on the basis of a normal chem panel
or normal electrolyte levels; the only accurate and definitive test
for Addison's is the ACTH Stimulation test. If your dog has not had this
test, you might want to discuss it with your vet (however, current and recent past steroid use can invalid the test results). We have had a number of
dogs on list in the past who were thought to have IBD that on further testing
were found to have Addison's.

Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI), bacterial overgrowth of the small intestine (SIBO) and/or B12 deficiency may be other possibilities in dogs having gi problems.

EPI results when a dog's pancreas can no longer produced the digestive
enzymes required for the body to digest food and absorb needed
nutrients. EPI may come on as a sudden event or gradually over time. Young GSDs
may develop EPI as the result of an inherited recessive gene, but older
GSDs and dogs of other breeds may also develop EPI through other mechanisms
such as chronic/acute pancreatitis. EPI is diagnosed through the TLI test;
Texas A&M is a national center of expertise for running this fasting blood
test. Dogs properly tested fasting with low normal TLI may be in the process of developing EPI. Please note that we have seen a number of dogs on list, particularly GSDs, who exhibit symptoms of EPI with low normal TLI values who on subsequent retesting are clearly found to have EPI.

SIBO is diagnosed through a fasting blood test, with elevated folate
levels indicating existence of SIBO. SIBO cannot be determined from
routine fecal or routine blood testing. SIBO is most frequently a secondary
condition to some other gi problem, so if a dog is determined to have
SIBO, some consideration should be given
as to whether or not an as yet undiagnosed primary gi problem exists.
SIBO may be chronic in some dogs and may be difficult to control if the
primary condition is not also treated and controlled. SIBO is commonly
treated with gi specific antibiotics such as Tylan or Flagyl, with other systemic
antibiotics sometimes being used depending upon the type of bacteria
involved in the SIBO. In some breeds such as GSDs, SIBO can be a primary condition.

B12 deficiency is determined by low cobalamin levels, another
specialized fasting blood test. B12 deficiency usually results from
some sort of malabsorption problem such as EPI, SIBO or protein losing
enteropathy (PLE). B12 deficiency is treated using B12 injections, as oral supps
are generally insufficient to remedy the deficiency. If a dog has B12
deficiency, again, some consideration needs to be given as to the
primary condition resulting in the deficiency.

The folate and cobalamin tests are frequently run as a panel due to
there being sometimes a relationship between the two. While a number
of labs can run folate and cobalamin tests, Texas A&M is a national
center of expertise for running this panel.

Pancreatitis is another possibility which is typically diagnosed
using the more specific PLI test, although sometimes the TLI test for EPI may be
diagnostic for pancreatitis since abnormally high TLI levels are
usually indicative of pancreatitis. Once again, this is a fasting blood test
for which Texas A&M has special expertise.

If tick exposure is a possibility in your area, tick borne disease (TBD) may be another possibility. This is an often overlooked disease/condition
whose symptoms very frequently are the same or similar to those seen
with IBD.

The assistance of an experienced specialist
in internal medicine or gi specialist may also be very helpful in
determining the cause(s) of your dog's symptoms.

If your dog does actually have IBD, then it is very important to
understand the impact of IBD related inflammation on your dog's condition. Generally
IBD dogs on diagnosis will need at a minimum to be switched to a novel
protein/novel carb diet (novel meaning the dog has never previously eaten the ingredients) or one of the hydrolyzed diets. Sometimes vets unfamiliar with the dietary requirements prescribe "bland" diets of chicken or boiled beef and rice or similar commercial diets (such as Hill's I/D) containing ingredients commonly found in high volume dog foods such as chicken, wheat, corn, and/or rice. If the dog has previously eaten any of these food ingredients, these ingredients are not novel and should not be used in a novel protein/novel carb diet for an IBD dog.


Depending upon the type,
nature, extent and severity of disease, the dog may also need one or more meds
(various steroids/immune suppressants are commonly used) to
control the IBD related inflammation. If IBD related inflammation is
not controlled, the dog may quickly become IBD intolerant to the new food
ingredients. This is one reason why it is very important not to feed
previously fed/eaten food ingredients to which the dog may be IBD
intolerant, as these food ingredients may trigger IBD related inflammation.
Particularly suspect foods wrt IBD intolerance may be those food
ingredients fed at the time of diagnosis or for some period of time before the IBD
symptoms developed. It may also be more likely that dogs with more
extensive or severe disease will need meds at least initially to
control the IBD related inflammation and failure to use appropriate meds in such
cases and attempting to treat the IBD initially with diet changes alone may
result in progression of the disease and/or the dog becoming IBD intolerant
to even more food ingredients, making the IBD even more difficult to treat.

Strict dietary control is almost always a key part of
successful treatment of IBD. When feeding commercial foods, treats,
or supplements, it is very important to carefully scrutinize labels for
any ingredients which may pose an IBD intolerance problem. IBD is a
lifelong condition and once a dog has become IBD intolerant to
certain food ingredients, the dog generally cannot go back and eat
those foods again without triggering IBD related inflammation which may
cause progression or worsening of the disease.

IBD can be successfully controlled and managed in many although
unfortunately not in all dogs, with treatment of dogs having severe
and extensive disease sometimes being very difficult. IBD treatment is
also highly dependent upon the individual situation. What works best for
one dog may not work at all for another. Owner diligence wrt diet and
treatment protocols is also very important. Keeping a careful daily journal of
symptoms, diet, meds, exercise etc may be very helpful especially in
the initial stages in evaluating how a dog responds to particular
treatments or identifying problem food ingredients etc.


I know it is long, but this provides some good info.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Wow, thanks! I emailed them, so hopefully I'll hear back soon!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Here's the website: IBDogs : IBDogs

I didn't know there was such a group - silly me, isn't there a yahoo group for everything???


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

PuffinGirl said:


> We have definitely thought about it - but it seems that all the vets think they're unreliable enough that they could actually be a detriment to us (meaning they could throw us off track). It may be something to re-address though.
> 
> I have definitely noticed that stress or excitement can cause Jones to get worse, but this time there was absolutely nothing that would have caused him to get worked up, so that's ruled out.


Digestive upset when there is stress or excitement is really a measurement of the robustness of the health of the digestive system.

Indy's food allergy tests (blood tests) were an absolute life saver many years ago. They have to be combined with food trials, but they were right for us.

Max tested negative for SIBO, but gained 10 pounds once I treated him.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the link to the website. I've never even heard of Yahoo groups, so this will be a new experience for me!

I completely agree that the fact excitement causes him diarrhea is a sign that his GI tract is ridiculously sensitive, but I just expect that he'll always have issues of some sort. =)

I've been re-thinking the allergy testing, and may just decide to do it for the heck of it. I know my vet doesn't recommend it, but I may tell her I want to do it anyway. It's non-invasive, and might tell us something helpful.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

PuffinGirl said:


> I've been re-thinking the allergy testing


If you're going to do it, I would suggest using VARL or Spectrum and NOT Nelco.

VARL: PRODUCTS


The Spectrum Group


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for that suggestion! Spectrum was who I was looking into, so we'll probably go with them.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Keep us posted on the recommendations by the IBD group too, we want to know how things are going!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I haven't heard back from the group yet, so I'll follow up in a couple days.

His fecal came back negative, which is good I guess. This morning his poop was really good - he's eating mostly rice and canned salmon, with a little kibble mixed in. He went again this afternoon and it wasn't as good, but he had also been really worked up about a long car ride/hike, etc, so I wasn't too surprised. It was mostly formed, but soft, which seems to be normal for him when he's really worked up.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I contend the less kibble the better for an IBD dog, BUT there are lots of dogs out there with IBD on kibble! Of course, my dogs do well on salmon, not as well on canned salmon. Of course....

You will probably get a faster response by joining from the website. IF you don't hear back from them, you might give that a try.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I had the canned salmon around here, and I know he's done fine on it in the past, so it was a quick and easy solution. =) He seems to be doing ok right now, so hopefully that continues as I increase the amount of kibble. I'm definitely not convinced that kibble is the right thing for him, but he's going to be on it for at least the next couple weeks until I can get a game plan on what to do with him. It's likely not ideal, but I hope it'll be ok.

And thanks for the suggestion - I'll try on the website if I don't hear back soon!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I thought I'd post an update on Jones as it's been a while.

We went to the internist for a recheck on Wednesday. He's happy he's gained, but he would like to see his poop better and more consistent. Neither of us was ready to put him on pred yet though, so I'm glad we agreed on that.

We're having a local company make a personalized home-cooked diet for him. It's low fat and low fiber, and has chicken and salmon as the protein sources. He LOVES it, and seems to be doing ok on it. His morning poop is almost normal looking, but his afternoon poop is much softer. I'm hoping that might improve as he adjusts to the food.

We also started him on pancrezyme tablets just to see if they make any difference. I can't tell if they are, but I'll give it a while and see if they seem to be making any difference overall. 

His labwork still looks good, so that's nice. His energy level has been great and his appetite is even better. 

I did just get back from the emergency vet because he tore a chunk of his pad off, so the fun never ends! =)


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

About the pancrezyme tablets. My experience has been that they really don't work very well. The powder is preferable.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Good to know - I was afraid of that. They didn't have the powder in stock, so we would have had to order it and it would have taken about a week or so. We only got a month's supply, so we can switch to the powder soon and see if it makes any difference.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Overall, a pretty good update 

What type of grains/starches are in the diet?

That paw stuff sucks


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

There is rice and potatoes. He did well when he was eating just rice and meat, so I had her leave the rice in. 

As far as the paw goes, he's been amazingly good about not bothering his bandage. I think it's the first time I can say he's been a good dog about anything! =) Of course it rained this morning, which wasn't even forecast, so it was a pleasure walking him in his ziploc bag. =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a question - have any of you used Seacure for your dogs and their digestive issues? I did some research and it seems like it can work magic (which of course I don't expect) but I bought some to give it a try. I was curious if any of you had had any experiences with it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I have heard very good things about Seacure, though I've never used it. 

I was just curious about the starches.

Did you ever get on the IBD group?

It sounds like he is doing reasonably well, which is good news


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah, I think he's doing ok. I was mixing in some extra chicken, rice, and potato into his cooked food to give him some extra calories. Oddly enough it gave him diarrhea, even though it's the same stuff that's in the cooked food. He's an odd duck!

I'll give the seacure a try for a month or two and see if I notice any difference. With his food and his supplements/prescriptions, poor Jones is eating about $1000 a month! It's too crazy to think about for long. =)

I was just thinking about the IBD group in the shower. I'll email them the results of his biopsy right now.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I stopped adding up what it costs per month for me to keep Max going. I hope that Jones provides you with some financial relief soon


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That was probably a very good idea. =) 

It would be nice, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon! If we could cut down on the vet bills, that would be awesome. =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

A quick update on Jones:

He seems to be doing fairly well. Almost all of his poop has been solid for a couple weeks now! I think he may have also gained a little weight, which would be awesome. I'll have to get him weighed soon. 

I tried the pancrezyme, but I think it made his poop softer, oddly enough. I'm not using Solid Gold's seameal, which has plant based enzymes in it, and that seems to be working well. I know most dogs don't do well on the plant enzymes, but it seems to working for him, so I'll stick with it for a while. =) I guess it could also be coincidental, and he would have started doing better even without it, but I'm going to continue using it just in case.

He's been really itchy lately though, so I'm going to have to figure something out with that. I'm working on getting the testing kit from VARL so we can run an allergy test. I have a feeling that the itchiness is environmental, as it's warming up here, and everyone's allergies have been terrible. I know there is a lot of pollen in the air, so I'm sure that could be contributing to his allergies. 

Overall though, we seem to be headed in the right direction.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's very possible that Jones has issues with pork, which means that regular enzymes won't be so helpful. My Maxwell has this problem, I use plant-based enzymes for him. Tula, who doesn't post here much at all anymore, has an EPI dog that she manages with plant-based enzymes for the same reason. I think it's great that the SeaMeal helping!

Oh geez, allergies everywhere, and itchy dogs everywhere...I think it's an epidemic!

I'm glad that he is stable, and improving!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

PuffinGirl said:


> He's been really itchy lately though


Could be allergic to the kelp in the Seameal.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

LisaT said:


> It's very possible that Jones has issues with pork, which means that regular enzymes won't be so helpful. My Maxwell has this problem, I use plant-based enzymes for him. Tula, who doesn't post here much at all anymore, has an EPI dog that she manages with plant-based enzymes for the same reason. I think it's great that the SeaMeal helping!
> 
> Oh geez, allergies everywhere, and itchy dogs everywhere...I think it's an epidemic!
> 
> I'm glad that he is stable, and improving!


What brand of plant enzymes do you use? I'm SO happy he seems to be doing better! I've probably just jinxed it now though. =)

There does seem to be a lot of allergies going around! I think the weather is a big part of it here.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

LJsMom said:


> Could be allergic to the kelp in the Seameal.


Hmmm...I guess it could be a possibility, but he's always been itchy, and it just got worse the past couple weeks. I think it got worse before we even started the seameal. The weather here has been so crazy though - we've gotten a ton of rain, so things are growing like mad, but then in between rain is gets REALLY warm out so everything is blooming. I'm thinking part of it is seasonal allergies.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I had blood drawn for allergy testing today, so I hope we're able to learn something valuable from that! 

He's been doing pretty well - his morning poop is completely normal, but his 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, of the day are normally much softer. It's as if the excitement/stress of the day causes it. There are no other differences between the meals. Right now he's eating 3 meals a day of 2 cups each, and I think I'm going to make his dinner 3 cups, and cut his lunch to 1, to see if I can get him to better digest more food.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of those tests!

Yeah, it sounds like he is still having digestive issues, but it's being managed.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Me too! I'm guessing that there have to be a combination of food and environmental allergies. If something in his food is a possible allergen, then I'll have to decide what we are going to do with his food! 

The digestive issues are frustrating - it's definitely not the food that's the main issue at this point, as his morning poop looks great, but I hate how it goes downhill during the day! If he does ok with the larger meal at night, I'll have to consider having him eat the majority of food in the evening so that he gets the maximum benefit from it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

PuffinGirl said:


> The digestive issues are frustrating - it's definitely not the food that's the main issue at this point, as his morning poop looks great, but I hate how it goes downhill during the day!


I hate to tell you, that's a popular misconception, but it still might be a food issue. 

If the food is an irritant, resting over night might be enough for his digestive system to handle the food. But during the day, with more stresses in addition to the food irritant, his digestive system can't handle it. The right food, calms the digestive system, and evens out the digestion throughout the day.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That's so not what I wanted to hear! 

Hmmm...well, I guess I'll wait and see what the allergy test says, and then go from there. I'm a bit nervous about changing foods and causing setbacks, but I'll certainly do it if I have to. 

I'm guessing feeding him one giant meal at night isn't an option? =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LOL, no, not an option! I do feed less in the morning and more at night though.

Any food switch is a gamble


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## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

I'm curious too what Jones might be allergic too. Hopefully, it isn't much. Niko had lots of odd stuff which basically restricted him to any dog food other than ZD.  That's what we are doing for now. 

Niko wishes his cousin good luck!!! 

Tanja


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

LisaT said:


> LOL, no, not an option! I do feed less in the morning and more at night though.
> 
> Any food switch is a gamble


His poop was good this morning even with the bigger meal last night, so I'll do that for the time being.

I'm just so nervous to switch his food when he's doing better than he has in a long time, even if he's still having problems. Oh well, I'll see what the results show and go from there.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Fluffypants said:


> I'm curious too what Jones might be allergic too. Hopefully, it isn't much. Niko had lots of odd stuff which basically restricted him to any dog food other than ZD.  That's what we are doing for now.
> 
> Niko wishes his cousin good luck!!!
> 
> Tanja


Jones says "Thanks Niko!" 

I wouldn't be surprised if he's allergic to everything, because that's how things seem to go with him. I'm hoping that's not the case though! 

Is Niko still doing better on the ZD?


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## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

You did both tests - food and inhallant? I'm curious too and hopefully his allergies are mild. Dust mites, grass and mold are tough ones... I think that's Niko's biggest issue. He is doing ok on the ZD, loves the food, his face looks better, but is still itchy... caught him rubbing his face/eyes on the ground and with his paw when I went home for lunch to let them out. 

I bought extra face cloths and wash his face a couple of times a day. His ears are ok.. a little better, but I can't tell if the pollen is not so bad on certain days either. I have been giving him hydroxzine daily too and I think that has also been helping.

He is still itchy on his body, flanks, and licking his feet and butt alot. He smells too... been bathing him weekly. I'm leaving him smelly for our Derm. appt. tomorrow. LOL. 

When will you get your tests back?? VARL was pretty quick when I sent them... only a few days.

Tanja


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

We did the full panel - so extended food, customized environmental, and mold. I don't know when we'll get the results, but I'm hoping it's by early next week.

I'm glad Niko is feeling a little better, and I hope the derm can offer you something to give him some relief! Oh, and washing his face is probably a good idea! I'm sure he's enjoying his extra attention! =)


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## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

That's good that you did the full panel... it's worth it and I don't think it's much more as far as money goes. My vet got the results faxed fairly quickly... although it was only the food test (my tests were done separately - derm did inhallant prior). I called them several days later and they said oh yea... it's right here. Although, they don't really send out for any allergy testing... they always refer to a derm. 

Yes, Niko does like the extra attention... LOL He is such a ham... sweetest dog, couldn't hurt a fly. LOL Although, I hope he doesn't have a fit in the derm's office... he get's so nervous. I think I may ask to leave the room... I think for some reason he does better without me there. All his medical stuff has caused him to be so nervous at the vets. 

Tanja


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Fluffypants said:


> That's good that you did the full panel... it's worth it and I don't think it's much more as far as money goes. My vet got the results faxed fairly quickly... although it was only the food test (my tests were done separately - derm did inhallant prior). I called them several days later and they said oh yea... it's right here. Although, they don't really send out for any allergy testing... they always refer to a derm.
> 
> Yes, Niko does like the extra attention... LOL He is such a ham... sweetest dog, couldn't hurt a fly. LOL Although, I hope he doesn't have a fit in the derm's office... he get's so nervous. I think I may ask to leave the room... I think for some reason he does better without me there. All his medical stuff has caused him to be so nervous at the vets.
> 
> Tanja


The test wasn't that expensive - I think the full panel was $185, which is quite a bit cheaper than Spectrum. I'll give my vet a call on Monday if I haven't heard back before then. 

Jones is always better when we're not there too. They take him in back for anything they need to do to him and swear he's an angel. I'm not so sure I believe them. =)


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

PuffinGirl said:


> The test wasn't that expensive - I think the full panel was $185, which is quite a bit cheaper than Spectrum


Which lab did you use?


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

We used VARL. It was recommended by a couple people, and cheaper, so I thought I'd give it a shot.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think it was cheap because they set it up special for you. The markup the vets would usually charge would make the extended panel a lot more expensive. You got a deal!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah, you're right. That's the cost to the vet. However, Spectrum said on its website that their cost for a similar panel was around $300 I think, so I still think they'd be more expensive.

My vet is going to mark up her cost a little to cover the tech's time, but it will still be a great deal!


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## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

Just to give some sort of idea... I paid (back in 2/2007) $389 for the intradermal skin test and the blood test for inhallant. Tufts combined the price, so it's hard to tell how much the blood test only was. They did charge me separately for tranquilization- $49 and tranquilization reversal... $39 which is for the skin testing. $30 to Fedx and $18 for a blood draw. I used VARL for the food test since that is who Tufts uses out here. 

It's definitely a good price! LOL It's hard to find any good prices for vet stuff!

Just an FYI... if you need any of the shampoos, ear stuff... all the things I posted on my thread about Niko... do NOT buy them from the vet. For Ex: The Douxo Chlorehexidine shampoo was $45 at the derm... it's $25 online at Entirely Pets.... so there is quite a mark-up. I kind of knew this when I bought the stuff, but was just at my wits end and didn't want to wait for the Douxo in the mail. LOL Niko is getting his tubby today!

Tanja


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I definitely won't be buying any of that stuff at the vet! Thanks for the head's up! I was looking at the different Douxo shampoos on Entirely Pets but don't even know which one I would get for Jones. I just need a general shampoo for an itchy, sensitive, allergicky dog. And none of them have that in the description. =)

I hope Niko enjoys his bath today. Make sure the water is nice and warm for him! =)


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

Petmed.com is also a good source.

Glad to hear that things are improving


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the recommendation!

I do think he's improving - I just wish it was more consistent. He would probably say I'm too demanding of a dog mom. =)


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I've been terrible about updating this thread, but I figured, better late than never. =)

We did the serum allergy testing on Jones, and then eventually did the skin testing. We started him on allergy shots for his environmental allergies. Based on the serum testing, he has very few food allergies, but I guess we don't know really how accurate that is. 

Of course, he's terribly allergic to everything in his environment, including human dander. Because we started the allergy shots in the peak of allergy season, the derm said that we may not see results for 6 months or more. He seems to be doing fairly well though, so I'm not too worried about that.

As for the IBD, we ended up weaning him off the imuran because I didn't really feel like it was making a difference. Several months off of it now, I can't say that I've seen much of a change, so I'm glad we took him off of it. He's still doing "ok." Most of the time, his morning poop is good, and his evening poops are usually formed, but soft. He feels great, his appetite is good, and I think his weight is holding steady, so I'm kind of in a holding pattern. I know everyone says that IBD dogs have to be on a novel protein/carb, and he's certainly not on that, but he seems to be stable at least. I hesitate to change things when he's not having major problems. I do have his food company working on another custom diet for him made of novel ingredients, so that if we need it in the future, we'll have it available. 

Hmmm...I think that covers most of what's been going on in Jones' world. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I've been wondering how things have been going. Indy is also allergic to human dander. Cats too. I figure since I am allergic to her, we make the perfect pair.

The allergy shots should help, and down the road they may even help with the digestion, having less of a load for the body to handle. I'm glad he's doing well off the imuran - the less of the heavy hitter drugs, the better!


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

He's allergic to cats, too! These darn GSDs! =)

That's what I've been hoping too - that the allergy shots will have a positive impact on his IBD. And I'm very glad to have him off the imuran, especially since it didn't seem to be doing very much. That being said, if and when he have to change his diet, I'll probably put him back on it for a month before the diet change, to try and ensure that the new diet works.


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