# My Rescue Attacked a Pit Bull



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I do foster and last weekend I took back a White Female GSD, about four years old, whom a person that adopted the dog returned. The person had the dog for almost a year. The dog was in foster prior to adoption, and had eight pups while in our care. The dog was never a problem.

The person that adopted the dog, said the dog had attacked about a dozen dogs, and in five cases drew blood. The last attack took place about a month ago. The dog literally tore out her canine teeth and broke her jaw, while attacking a lab. 

So, as a rescue I take the dog back. She is fine with me and my other shepherds, very gentle, and shows no signs of aggression. 

This afternoon I was taking her back to meet her first rescue, who just loved the dog, and took care of her pups. Usually the dog just runs to the door of my truck, and jumps in. However, today she ran past the truck and attacked a Pit Bull. My rescue dog, without canine teeth and with a broken jaw had the Pit on the ground, and this is one of the most vicious attacks I have ever seen. The Pit owner could not seperate them, so I did. I grabbed my rescue dog, and the Pit Bull was just fine. The rescue, a cut nose and bloodly mouth, the latter likely from trying to bite the Pit Bull.

The attack was totally unprovoked, and the Pit Bull is one of the nicest dogs I have ever met. 

My rescue is great, with friends, family and my kids. On leash she was fine at the dog park and the vet's. 

Nonetheless, some have suggested I put her down because of this and past unpreditable attacks. 

The above-mentioned will not happen. I could take her to a trainer we deal with, and he is very good. But she will likely do fine and that is the quandry.

Suggestions on rehab appreciated, and if you think the dog should be put down, I would also appreciate your feedback.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think an easy and humane solution is to muzzle her until you can figure out what's triggering the dog aggression. And obviously you should keep her on leash and away from strange dogs.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Chuck, I agree with Ruth a muzzle and leash are a must.

I know that some times you don't agree, but there could be an under lying medical issue, thyroid imbalance that can cause unpredictable aggression. So a Full blood panel might not be a bad idea. Has she only become aggressive after being spayed. I think there are some studies being done that spayed females maybe more aggressive, they miss the hormone balance.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I would do a check up to see if something medical is going on then try the trainer, then if no success unfortunately have her PTS.I hope one of the first 2 choices work out.Definitely muzzle her till you get her figured out.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are plenty of dogs out there that are not OK with other dog. Also, plenty of single-dog homes. She obviously cannot be loose around other dog. Since there are leash laws almost everywhere, this situation can be managed.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerChuck, I agree with Ruth a muzzle and leash are a must.
> 
> I know that some times you don't agree, but there could be an under lying medical issue, thyroid imbalance that can cause unpredictable aggression. So a Full blood panel might not be a bad idea. <span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style='font-size: 14pt'> Has she only become aggressive after being spayed.<span style='font-size: 20pt'> I think there are some studies being done that spayed females maybe more aggressive, they miss the hormone balance</span>.</span> </span>


</span></span>
I hadn't heard that one but I will run it by my trainer when we meet Thursday.Would a blood test be the way to test it,like in a woman.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That's weird about the spayed female theory. I have dealt with a lot of people and dog aggressive rescues and every single one of them has been a male. Plus so many of the really nasty fights between females include at least one unspayed female.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Her behavior is so strange. Loose, in the house with my other dogs, she is just fine. However, a dog with missing canine teeth and a broken jaw, attacks a very nice Pit Bull. 

I agree with your comments and others. When outside, a muzzle and always on leash. 

One of my other shepherds is going to the vet on Thursday and I will ask him about the blood panel and spaying comments.

Thank god the canine teeth were missing and she attacked a strong dog. 

In retrospect, what happened may have helped, because prior to that the dog has been calm, shy and friendly.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Wisc.Tiger,
Where did you hear of this study?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have to look and see if I can find it again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope that the pitt owner is being understanding and not persuing this. 

Frankly, If I was the pitt owner and I knew that this dog has attacked a dozen dogs, five of them seriously; or if I knew that the dog attacked another so badly that she lost her canines; and you let her just run to your vehicle, I would be in not such a forgiving and understanding mood. 

I would not put a dog down for being dog aggressive. I would segregate the dog and keep it leashed in public. If I had to take it where other dogs were likely to be in close quarters, than I would use a muzzle. 

Who knows why she chooses to fight with some dogs? It would almost be a blessing if it was a medical reason where drugs would be indicated. It can also be a serious condition, a brain tumor or something that makes her feel terribly vulnerable around strange dogs. And I would not rule out the hormone thing. I too heard of a study that spaying females can make them more aggressive. Whether or not you can pinpoint what is going on, I think the situation can be managed. 

I would not be so certain that your own dogs are safe from her though. They may be fine for the rest of her life, or one may go through a doorway first and she may get a bout of rage. Then you are trying to pull apart two gigantic dogs without being injured. Bitches are twice their normal size when they are fighting. 

It sounds like you have your hands full with her. Good luck.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Here are two links.

http://askdryin.com/blog/2009/03/05/can-spaying-make-dog-behavior-worse/

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Like so many others I appreciate your comments. 

I doubt if it is a medical reason, but I will be checking with my vet on Thursday.

I am certain my other dogs are safe. I trust my rescue completely. While in the house she has shown no aggression toward anything. Just relaxed and comfortable. Who goes out first, gets the first treat and all that stuff, they are all fine. The first rescue also had three other shepherds, and there was never a problem.

If the Pitt owner pursued this, I would not blame the guy. I did tell him about the prior attacks, but need to find his address and personally apologize again. Fortunately, the Pit bull was not hurt, probably because my rescue has no canine teeth and a broken jaw.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Timber1I am certain my other dogs are safe. I trust my rescue completely.
[/quote said:


> Why would you trust the dog completely (or even incompletely, for that matter) when she has a history of serious dog aggression?
> I would do everything possible, both in and out of the house, to protect other dogs from her and to protect her from the possible consequences of her dog aggression.
> There could so easily be a fight in your home and major injury and even death could be the result for the dogs involved.
> Sheilah


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Timber,
I agree. Please do not leave this dog loose with your dogs if you are not right with them. Since you are not sure what triggers the attacks, they could happen anytime. There could even be some type of seizure brought on by excitement.

You don't want to come home to a bloodbath.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I'm surprised that the group you foster for is willing to take on a bite case.

Most rescue groups cannot afford the liability of a dog with a bite history. If they place the dog and something happens, the group will be liable (they KNEW the dog had a history of biting).

That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lauri, 

Is it considered a bite case if the bitee is a dog? I really don't know the answer to this. Dog aggression and human aggression are really different animals, I would be sad to think that dogs are destroyed for the former, while I understand the necessity to keep people safe. 

I do not like the idea of dogs fighting, injuring, or killing someone's pet, even if it is a rabbit or bird. But dogs are dogs. In most cases, if someone sues you about injuries or death of a pet you are basically out the costs of the vet care and maybe something for their trouble. It is not like hundreds of thousands of dollars that may occur from a serious attack to a person. 

Or does this dog have a history of biting people too and I just missed that?


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I think that this dog needs to be evaluated by someone who is really aware of dog body language to see what, if anything, sets her off. 

There could be a number of health reasons that create the problem. The increased aggression after being spayed is certainly a possibility. It's not necessarily the norm, but it's been shown that some bitches do have an increase in aggression post-spay. I think that most of those dogs are aggressive before being spayed, though (it's not that they suddenly become aggressive, it's just that the aggression increases).

Thyroid problems could create aggression problems, too. Epilepsy is another possibility - my Aussie would become aggressive when she had a slight epileptic attack and at that point would attack whoever happened to be there (sometimes dogs, sometimes humans). 

I honestly would not leave this dog loose with my dogs if I were you. While she has so far shown herself to be okay with them, if there is an unknown precursor to the attacks then one of your dogs could set her off if the conditions were right. It's not worth taking the risk. 

If she's just plain aggressive (and I would say that a dozen attacks is something pretty darn serious) then she may be somewhat rehabilitated but will probably never be truly trustworthy. I am always of mixed minds about this kind of dilemma ... there are so many good dogs, non-aggressive dogs, out there who need help that it seems wrong to spend the extra time and money on a dog that may never become a trustworthy companion (and who may very possibly, down the line, hurt or kill another dog). But that's an ethical dilemma that only the person dealing with the dog can truly deal with. Best of luck to you in working with this girl - 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Timber1,

I'd have to agree, at least muzzle & leash her when out and about and do not let her mingle w/your own dogs. If she should start something, they may return fire and you would be outnumbered and could get seriously hurt yourself. When you have to leave them unattended, I don't think it's a good idea to put a muzzled dog in with unmuzzled especially when unsupervised. Muzzle or not she may start something which would tick off any one or more of your dogs and then the muzzled dog doesn't have anything to protect herself with. Keeping them separate removes all possibility of some freak thing happening. You always trusted her to go from building to vehicle before and today she broke that trust. She could break it again and the next person may not be so understanding or the next dog so lucky. I don't think there is any doubt that there will be a next dog if she's left to her own devices. It's just a question of when.

Please do not disregard the possiblity of this being something medical. If it's thyroid dysfunction - the meds for that are known to work wonders for the majority of dogs and it's very inexpensive medication. I just got like an 8wk supply for $12. (I PM'd you w/more info.)

There's another post somewhere that sums up aggression really nice in my opinion. Because true aggression is rare (like Rage Syndrome) and most aggression comes from other causes one good way to help tell the difference would be if the dog attacks anything and everything no matter what the situation, then it's true aggression. If it is more like something sets the dog off whether it be a situation, another dog or person or whatever, then chances are it's more a fear aggression or perhaps another kind. 

There's also the possibility that after the first attack happened w/the adoptive owner, the owner became afraid or at the very least, nervous about it happening again. The dog picked up on this and it became a learned behavior of attacking in the situation where "the boss" gets nervous around another dog this one attacks. I know that's at least PART of the problem we were having here with ours.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

I'm stunned that this other person (that adopted the dog) did allow the female to attack/ bite other dogs about a DOZEN TIMES!!!


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## Prinzsalpha (Jul 6, 2005)

Let me clarify that the dog mentioned was not a bite case prior to her adoption. We learned of this from her adopter after the fact. Her previous foster home LOVED her. We are shocked by this behavior.Obviously something is going on with her. We will try every avenue to address her behavior. As you know our rescue takes all our adoptive dogs back for any reason and she was returned last week.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: selzerLauri,
> 
> Is it considered a bite case if the bitee is a dog?


Think of it from a legal POV. You adopt out a dog that has a history of attacking/biting other dogs. You warn the adopter about this and tell them that the dog should NEVER be around other dogs.

One day the adopter has the dog for a walk and it gets lose and goes after another dog. The adopter steps in to break up the fight and gets seriously bitten.

Unfortunately, in our sue-happy society that is just too much of a risk (IMPO) for a rescue to take. One single lawsuit could shut them down forever.

I used to believe that we could save every dog. Now I know that's just not true. Harsh reality, yes. It sucks. But to paraphrase Spock - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ... or the one.

Sorry to hijack this thread.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Lauri,

a quick clarification. When the dog was adopted she did not have a history of biting other dogs.

As far as know the dog when adopted have never shown any aggression.

To the person that could not understand why the adoptee never contacted us prior to the several attacks. 

I do not understand that either.

All your posts are good, and worth thinking about. However, I do want to re-read and elaborate a bit.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Why do I trust the trust the dog with my other shepherds. Because she is gentle, calm, waits in line for food, and has never shown any signs of aggression toward my guys. The same thing was true with her first foster, who has German Shepherds and young children. 

Remember, the rescue dog has no canine teeth, and is recovering from a broken jaw. So the attacks, especially the last two, were simply stupid. If the dog ever attacked one of my guys it would help in terms of resolving her issues. But I doubt that will ever happen. 

I do think this is one of those situations in with you all would have to meet the dog. I could bring the rescue into your home, have her meet your dogs, and she would be just fine.

Not only would her behavior be perfect, but she would be submissive to your pets, and never show any signs of aggression. 

However, if she was outside and another dog walked by, she might attack, and there would be no or literally no warning. 

It is not territorial, as some might suggest, because some of her prior aggression took place far from the adoptee's home.

Prior to my taking her back, the dog lived with three cats and was never aggressive. I am told one of the cats would follow the dog all over. 

This is a tough one, and if the dog ever attacked one of my guys she would be gone. However, she has been perfect.

My rescue is working to try and help the dog with a trainer and behavior specialist. So I would appreciate if no one ever implied they are not doing a great job, we are doing our best. And as I mentioned, while in rescue the dog was fine.

I went through the medical stuff with a vet I respect this AM. His comments, including changes in a speyed female were helpful.. His conclusion is the dog's actions are not medically related.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I hope the vet is correct but I would have a hard time buying that opinion without the data from a blood panel to back it up.

I hope the best for this dog.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Ditto Kathy. Brain tumors/brain inflammation can also cause aggression. Some vets are too fast washing the problem off being behavioral without really doing THEIR job.

Do you know if all the dogs that were attacked looked similar- or were of the same breed? If a dog has had a bad experience (was attacked herself) with one particular dog, she might react aggressive towards dog(s) who looks similar to the first that attacked her. Just a thought. Keep up the good work!


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Timber - a vet with esp? I would never close that avenue without a second opinion and real testing. So she is not ill and is a pussycat with your dogs.









If she ever attacked one of your dogs she would be gone - but she attacked the neighbor's dog and is still there.

I am trying to read these posts fairly, but it seems when I read your posts you pose questions then proceed to tell everyone nothing is wrong.

This dog is fortunate you have her and I applaud your attempts to rehab her. I just wish you would not rule out medical issues based on a conversation and I hope she does not prove you wrong with your innocent dogs.

Good luck.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I hate to become a bit defensive, but how silly. If nothing was wrong, I would have never asked for feedback. Maia with her canines missing and a broken jaw attacked a Pit Bull, and as I may have said the Pit was perfectly behaved.

Something is obviously horribly wrong, but I cannot figure it out because she is great with my guys, and was the same with a prior rescue.

Please, never again imply I think the dog is fine, because she is not. Perhaps when you read all this stuff you need to be more careful.

As for the medical tests, that is up to our rescue group. I personally doubt that will help, but if given the OK they will be done.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

I read every post carefully before replying. Actually I don't reply to most posts, because others have often gone before me and I see no reason to duplicate thoughts or suggestions.

I hope she continues to be good with your guys.

Good luck.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI hope the vet is correct but I would have a hard time buying that opinion without the data from a blood panel to back it up.


I agree Kathy. I blew off someone's suggestion a long time ago to have mine tested for thyroid problems. After all he seemed perfectly healthy to me and how could a little bitty thyroid cause behavioral issues? I thought the person was out of their mind the whole thing seemed absolutely ludicrous to me yet, for some reason also stuck in the back of my mind and every once in awhile would whisper to me "have his thyroid checked." I just stupidly kept ignoring the voice.

Well, gee, guess who's eating crow now? ME! I finally took the time to research his symptoms and the thyroid thing almost jumped out and bit me. I say almost because before the test I was borderline yet on being a believer. When I read "low level supports the behavioral changes" right there in black and white on the test results written by Jean Dodd herself - I cried tears of relief and anger at myself for not taking that person seriously a long time ago.

I wish I could remember who specifically made the suggestion to have him tested because I would go to that person and first apologize for blowing off their suggestion and then thank them for making it because it did stick in my brain.

Possibly an additional something that may have brought on the attacks on other dogs after the first one is the adoptive owner. How that person handled the first attack could very well be at the root of the additional attacks. Additionally, if the owner is afraid or nervous one little bit about the dog attacking another dog after the first attack (which to me would be normal) - this dog is going to pick up on that, get nervous himself and ya all know what happens then. 

It would be really good in my opinion, if a really hard look could be taken at the circumstances around the attacks. My own dog was blamed for attacking another, but when you look at the circumstances it wasn't an attack. The other dog lunged at us first which sent mine into fear and/or protect mode. Did it look like a dog fight? You bet. Was it a dog fight? You bet. Was it started by my dog? No. 

Mine is also very direct eye contact sensitive. If Timber1's dog is eye contact sensitive as well and any of the dogs that he/she supposedly attacked did the stare-down thing, this could be an underlying cause. The fact that he/she is ok around his own dogs, makes this example unlikely but not impossible.

Since true aggression is supposed to be so rare, and that he/she is fine with Timber1's dogs and some others - there's got to be a trigger somewhere or something else perhaps situational in play here.

If it could be determined what that trigger is, it would be helpful to determine better the exact type situation that seems to set this dog into attack mode would be to sit down w/the adoptive owner and get a blow-by-blow detailed description of each attack.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerLauri, Is it considered a bite case if the bitee is a dog? I really don't know the answer to this. Dog aggression and human aggression are really different animals, I would be sad to think that dogs are destroyed for the former, while I understand the necessity to keep people safe.


Where I live, the law doesn't take dog to dog aggression to seriously unless the victim dog winds up dead and the incident occurs in a public place especially a dog park. Then it will make headlines.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1It is not territorial, as some might suggest, because some of her prior aggression took place far from the adoptee's home.


Territorial doesn't always revolve around one's yard or home. This just clicked in my head ... for a very long time it was thought that my own dog was over-protective of me mostly because the incidents that occurred were always when he was in my company and not my husbands. Hubby's favorite saying was "That dog OWNS you!" Thus, I was his territory and he would protect it.

After consulting with trainers, books, the boards, here, many different web sites - it seemed then that the problem was that *I* wasn't dominant enough and so he took the dominant position and he reacted very innappropriately at times to others getting to close to me - including my own grandkids. This was contributed to him over-protecting me. But in my gut, I just didn't buy this. There was something missing or wrong with the equation.

So, I continued to research & ask questions etc ... I just was not buying this over-protective thing. Things started falling into place that did make sense when I followed the yellow brick road into fear-aggression. My gut started letting go of the knot inside. It was pretty much like he's a classic case. This research also took me into the information about thyroid dysfunction and then it ALL made sense.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaedchenDitto Kathy. Brain tumors/brain inflammation can also cause aggression. Some vets are too fast washing the problem off being behavioral without really doing THEIR job.


Amen to that! It seems pet owners *have* to be pro-active and stand up to their vets sometimes. They have to do the research the vet should either already know or have the option of putting their finger on readily to refresh something they learned in vet school or something. I feel there have been several instances where my own vet hasn't taken me seriously. So, I then go get my proof and pass it along to her.

People need to understand that vets see many different things day in and day out along with seeing the same thing day in and day out. Like anyone else, they cannot be expected to remember every little thing which is why they have reference books and colleagues to consult with. I've heard some vet stories where it seems to me the vet is just to complacent when it came to treating some things. This particular vet didn't keep up with the most current standard of care and put their own thoughts & feelings into the mix instead of being objective and listening to the owners.

On the other hand, we live with our pets and we are the best judge of visible symptoms. We should not just trust our memories either when it comes time to tell our vets. We are human, we may forget the absolute most important symptom that tells the vet which direction to go in.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Something is obviously horribly wrong, but I cannot figure it out because she is great with my guys, and was the same with a prior rescue.


Here you see without a doubt that there truly is something wrong but you're baffled as to what it is. Understandable, it's hard to diagnose a patient when the patient can't tell you where it hurts. People are giving you good solid suggestions for where this aggression *may* be coming from. The answers aren't always black and white, we can't always see the problem, only the symptoms.



> Originally Posted By: Timber1As for the medical tests, that is up to our rescue group. I personally doubt that will help, but if given the OK they will be done.


You seem so sure, may I ask specifically why you feel strongly that medical tests will not help? Blood test or other medical tests could put the answers directly into your hands along with a way to fix it.

I agree it seems strange she doesn't react badly with your dogs, but then mine gets along perfectly fine with his "sister." It was other dogs that would trigger him.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangI'm surprised that the group you foster for is willing to take on a bite case.
> 
> Most rescue groups cannot afford the liability of a dog with a bite history. If they place the dog and something happens, the group will be liable (they KNEW the dog had a history of biting).
> 
> That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.


That makes no sense, why were the Michael Vick pits not PTS then? I saw a show on them where they have all these high priced animal behavviorists working with them.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

With this dog I am not 100 percent sure of anything, except she is fine with my guys while un-crated in the house,and never shown any signs of aggression in the home.

As for the medical testing, prior to taking her I had two other dogs on meds. We took them off, and in both cases they have been adopted and are doing fine. 

As for the thyroid and speying comments. My vet has been around for almost three decades, and as those of you that know me,I question almost anything.

He told me that based on the dog's behavior with me and my shepherds he seriously doubted it was a thyroid problem. The dog was fine a year ago, with the first rescue who has other dogs, and kids. She is also fine with me and my guys. I forgot to ask, but did wonder if a thyroid issue could suddently develop in a older dog.

Concerning the comments about speying, his response was it is rare, but possible. That in a few instances he has seen dogs that were speyed, and became aggressive. However, because she is so good with us, he doubts that is why she reacts in such an aggresive manner toward strange dogs.

I have said this before, but if she met your dogs in your home, she would be just fine. This has been the case with me and the previous foster. However, if you are out in the yard, and a strange dog walks by all **** breaks loose. The fur goes up and she is off. 

Thanks again for all your comments.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Timber1,

Just a thought but what you might be dealing with is a multiple of things that are just a little bit of a problem, but when put together it is the huge problem.

Let's just pretend that a dog (not saying the resuce dog in question) has a low thyroid problem, spay agression and fear aggression. Now let's say that the trigger for the fear agression is being outside. (My Raya is a much different dog outside, no confined area's she is much better than inside so maybe this dog has the reverse problem.) Now add maybe the reactivity from low thyroid and maybe some spay agression. If you compound all the little problems it becomes a BIG problem. 

Another thought is to have her eyes checked. Just wondering if all occurances with the dog aggression were in about the same light level. I don't know her story, but say if she was a Puppy Mill in a low light barn type thing then maybe she can't handle bright levels of light, it messes with her vision.

Val


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Sashmom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangI'm surprised that the group you foster for is willing to take on a bite case.
> ...


If you watch this video you'll see that the majority of the dogs taken from Vick were NOT 'fighting' dogs. They were the ones that 'failed' to fight or didn't fight well enough. One of the tests the evaluators did was testing them around other dogs.

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/vick/evaluations.html


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Sashmom
> That makes no sense, why were the Michael Vick pits not PTS then? I saw a show on them where they have all these high priced animal behavviorists working with them.


They would have been euthanized if there hadn't been so much media attention. That is the only thing that saved those dogs. Even with all that attention and advocacy happening, at least one dog was euthanized for being too dog aggressive (decided after being evaluated by behaviorists, I believe).
Timber, I think my unease with your current situation with this foster is how you seem to not be willing to look at the possibility that a major fight will happen between your resident dogs and your foster.
You base this belief on the fact that it hasn't happened yet.
Well, you let her outside, unleashed because you hadn't seen her act aggressive and she attacked another dog. So the belief that she wouldn't cause a problem was unfounded.
So, why can't your belief that there will not be a fight in your home also be unfounded? I just don't follow your logic. 
No vet can look at a dog, listen to a verbal recount from a lay person (who may or may not be a skeptic) and reach a definitive conclusion about that dog's health status. At the very least I would want a blood test run.
Does your rescue group have another foster home available where this dog would be the only dog in the home? I would be most interested in keeping her safe from her own behavior at this point, as well as any other dogs she might come into contact with. At least until the behavior is worked out, either with training or medical assistance?
Sheilah


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Val, thanks.

I can tell you I have made one decision and that is not to have the dog killed. Years ago an English professor of mine used to get upset because people were not direct in the terms they used.

For example, terms like put down or PTS were used to soften the issue. Reality is if I made a decision along those lines, it would be because I decided to KILL THE DOG. 

I do not believe it is a vision issue because a mom could walk by with a small child, and the dog is fine. However, a combination of the other things you mentioned is possible.

I have a friend that has a Chessie that was severally attacked while a pup. The Chessie will not allow strange dogs to approach him. Yet the dog lives with other family dogs in peace.

I wonder if the answer is as simple as that.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Well the easy answer would be it was one big glaring thing that you could see and work on.

What she is throwing at you is confusing. I would say that there might be an imprint in her brain some place that outdoor dogs are bad and that is a trigger for her. But there maybe some other things that aren't letting her over come that problem. You might just be dealing with a fear aggression problem. The broken jaw and missing teeth, just re-enforced her fear in her head. What bothers me is if it is fear aggression then her first instinct is to fight.

Val


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Sheilah and Val, just a few comments.

Sheilah, I am not totally dismissing the fact the rescue might attack one of my other dogs. They have started out on a good note, but unless I find out if the rescue will harm my other guys, how can anyone help the rescue. So far, so good, but I need to test the rescue a bit, ad obviously cannot do that with the neighbors dogs, and others in our family. 

Remember, this dog was fostered about a year ago, by a family that had kids and other shepherds, and the dog was never a problem.

Val, my problem with fear aggression is the rescue dog, OK finally the dog,s name, Maia, went after the Pit Bull from about 100 feet away, and the Pit was not even looking at Maia. 

More and more, because of a Chessie's behavior toward other dogs, I am thinking Maia was attacked early on in life by another dog. The same thing happened to the Chessie, and he will not allow other strange dogs to even come close. However, with their other dogs, like Maia, the Chessie is fine.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

You do have the option to have Maia wear a muzzle around you dogs (most dogs do well with it and get used to it quickly). In this way you can observe her behavior and at the same time reduce the potential risk to your dogs.

I think it was irresponsible from the previous adopter to let her attack a dozen dogs. After a dog attacks a strange dog once, the off-leash fredom should be over. A dozen attacks let her build a behavior pattern.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I could be way off base here but is there any chance the owner was lying about what happened with the dog? Honestly - breaking a jaw and losing canine teeth sounds a little far fetched to me.
I was just thinking - they sometimes remove the canines for bait dogs for dogfighting rings don't they? So they can't fight back?
Any chance she could have been used for this? Maybe that's why she went after the pit bull, it brought back bad memories...

I am just trying to think outside the box. Please don't be offended.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Believe me, I am not offended. The owner and his family are nice people, and he did take the dog to a behavior specialist, albeit he never followed up. 

In the neck of the woods this guy is from, there are few Pits. Plus, the dog also attacked a poodle, collie, and the worst a black lab, among others.

I saw the attack on the Pit and broke it up. My rescue with a few teeth missing and a broken jaw went after this dog who posed no threat.

As for a muzzle, I agree 100 percent with that suggestion. The muzzle, meeting other dogs and moving on from there for now.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDYou do have the option to have Maia wear a muzzle around you dogs (most dogs do well with it and get used to it quickly). In this way you can observe her behavior and at the same time reduce the potential risk to your dogs.


That would be such a great first step. That way at least everyone could be safe while the behavior gets worked out.
Sheilah


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Outside, I agree fully with the muzzle suggestion. Inside, Maia is simply to good with my other guys to be wearing a muzzle. And if she does get aggressive, I want to observe that.

There have been many suggestions and things to follow up on or think about that I need to digest the info for a bit.

This post has also been viewed by many, so for now I prefer to rest it for a bit, but then promise I will let everyone know how we proceed with Maia. 

My feeling about the dog has not changed. She is fine with me and my guys; however, her aggresion toward strange dogs has to change


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wow, if you did not know the people so well, phgsd's suggestion would really make a lot of sense. They might tell you a dozen fights to explain away scars, etc. And the dog haveing strong reactions to other dogs would be understandable.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: phgsdI was just thinking - they sometimes remove the canines for bait dogs for dogfighting rings don't they? So they can't fight back? Any chance she could have been used for this? Maybe that's why she went after the pit bull, it brought back bad memories ...


Ohmahgosh! Now THAT is something to think about as a possibility!Your thoughts make perfect sense as a very real possibility! I think most of those into fighting dogs will just kill the dog when they're done with them, though.







I don't know that they would go to the "trouble" of returning it to a rescue. 

Most of these dog fighters come across as Mr. Nice Guy. Nobody would have suspected Michael Vick either but look how far into it he was. But if you *really* feel you know this guy then I guess this isn't what happened.

*Timber1* - Yes, a dog can be diagnosed with thyroid problems at any time of their life. GSD's are on the list for those breeds being more prone to it as well.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Selzer, if this dog came from Milwaukee County the suggestion phdsg's made would make a ton of sense. But the dog came to us over a year ago, was not cheap to adopt, and the person that adopted the dog, aside from the adoption fee, spent more then a fee $$$ on medical care and a behavior specialist. 

We know the specialist and also the doctors at the vet clininc.

Maia has no signs that would lead me to believe the dog was abused in the manner suggested. She appears strong and healthy, and there are no signs of having been bitten on her legs or the rest of her body.

Granted the guy waited far to long to return the dog. But he continues to answer my questions about the attacks.

The last was a black lab, and Maia tore a few teeth out and broke her jaw. If this was a dog used for fight training I seriously doubt he would have taken her to the vet, paid the bills and then returned her to my rescue group. He helped her recover for about three weeks and then returned to my rescue.

My hunch is Maia was attacked at a young age, and that has made her very aggressive toward strange dogs.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Val, her first instinct is to fight, but I doubt it is fear based. A strange dog can be walking 200 feet from us and Maia wants to go after the dog. Yet in my home she is subordinate to my other dogs.

I am tryig to get more info before she came to our rescue group. I do know she lived outside, came with the pups, and Maia and the pups were filthy. After a bath and good care Maia and her pups got very attracted to our first foster, who plans on visiting Maia again next week.

Someone mentioned Maia being used to train fighting dogs. I wonder if it might be the opposite. In short, at some point during her first four years or so was Maia encouraged to attack other dogs. 

Just a thought.

Finally, I am hoping Maia will be posted on Pet Smart. If she is, Maia will come with more disclosures about her background then anyone could imagine. In Maia's case I would also do the home visit and bring her with me. 

Perhaps the wrong venue, but if any reader is interested in Maia, send me a personal E Mail.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog has three legs, one eye, half a tail, elbow dysplasia, is deaf, has EPI, and has bloated twice. Answers to Lucky. Interested parties please call.... 

I know there is someone out there willing to work with a dog with serious aggression issues, but frankly, I'd rather deal with Lucky. 

And as ugly as it sounds, if you or the first rescue do not want to keep this poor bitch, how much more are you willing to put her through? Just maybe the best thing to do is to put her down. It is only a matter of time before someone is seriously sued for this girl. And, that doesn't do rescues any favors. I can understand wanting to save them all, but there must be a point where you say enough is enough. 

If the issue was a physical illness, then maybe there can be something to solve it or help with the symptoms. If it is not, then how many times do you shunt this girl from here to there?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know very much about rescue and dog aggression but I think it's fairly irresponsible for you to let her be adopted without dealing with her aggression issues first. 

What if next she goes after another dog there is a 3 year old in the way?

What if she kills the next dog? What if it's the 3 year old?

I realize you have alot of faith in this girl but, even to me, it's apparent she can't be trusted and you don't know when she'll attack the next time.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Michelle, I appreciate your comment and this issue is one I have dealt with a few times.

No matter how much anyone deals with a Maia's aggression, can the dog ever be trusted completely. I am working on that issue, and some have said you have to test the dog. So we meet other dogs, I require Maia to obey, and a few treats are always helpful.

But how do you test? 

Letting her off lease when a strange dog walks past might be a good test, but what happens if she fails.

Hiring a shrink, she already had one and a good one. 

As for kids, adults and even dogs she lives with, Maia is fine.

So finding the right owner is the key. And the only thing that owner cannot do is let her off leash while outside.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wasn't thinking of her attacking a child with intent. More that a person might be between her and the other dog.

I truly feel for you in this position and wish you the best of luck with her.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

She is so darn good with kids. Even when she attacked the Pit Bull, I think a five year old could have pulled her off.

While the Pit Bull's owner was hitting Maia, I grabbed her around the leash and that was it.

Her reaction to the Pit Bull's owner, very friendly. Go figure.

If a person was between her and the dog, she would go for the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We thought Banshee was an aggressive dog and it turns out she had a thyroid problem. It's not expensive and could possibly solve the problem. I'm another that will vote for that blood test with her.

It's good that she responded to you. That says alot!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I got two of my worst bites pulling dogs I knew very well apart from each other. 

The dogs were not trying to bite me, but the other dog. 

The old lady who is protecting her Yorkie and gets a bite in the calf that takes over a year to heal is not going to separate dog aggression from human aggression.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Jax08, if my recue approves it I wll go ahead and have a full test on Maia.

Selzer, I will take the bites, but only had two. Both came from my Jack Russell Terrier.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Timber1, I am sure you know what you are in for, you probably know how to pull dogs apart without getting bit. But if you rehome this dogs, and it attacks another dog, the new owners or the attacked dog's owners may not be so well informed.

The following is just my opinion.

I think at some point you have to decide not to rehome a dog again. 

If this dog does end up with a human bite -- many human bites happen when owners separate dogs that are fighting, then it will do rescue in general and our breed no favors. 

Frankly, a dog with so much dog aggression, simply doesn't make a great pet. There are tons of good dogs out there put down all the time if you believe what they say in rescues and shelters, that we should focus our attention and resources finding these dogs homes, and not putting a dog that cannot be trusted in the hands of pet owners.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Timber 1, I was just reading this thread and even though I'm not on these boards much anymore felt compelled to reply.

With her history, you should never trust her. I would always keep her muzzled and leashed when outside. She should always have precautions taken; the risk of another attack is too high and the repercussions - to the other dog, to her, to you - are also too high.

Dogs that attack successfully not only build behaviour patterns, they build confidence.

It's been ages since I posted, so you may not remember that I knew Teagan was dog aggressive. We worked on it, with trainers and ourself, and I thought she was doing great. Since she doesn't give off overt warnings in terms of body language, and no vocalization, I learnt to read her. I always assumed her aggression would manifest in a bluffing kind of aggression - rushing another dog, putting on a front, but not serious out-and-out attacking. 

I was wrong. Last June we were in the yard and I had her on leash, b/c I thought that was an appropriate precaution. I got tangled in the leash; I didn't see a man approaching with his 2 dogs. Teagan was sitting quietly at my side, and I accidentally dropped the leash while I was untangling myself (if I had seen the dogs I would've stayed tangled til they were gone). The second the leash hit the ground - the second - Teagan took off. No sound. I looked up and was right behind her. Within a few seconds, b/c I pulled her off right away, she sliced through the muscle and fatty layers from the front of the thigh to the anus. I got her off, the man assaulted me, it was all awful - but that poor dog!!!! I just felt like the lowest person in the world; it was an accident, but a horrible one. Of course I paid for all vet bills and have seen the dog since, but I can never take back what happened.

The worst part was that my world collapsed - I cried for weeks - but Teagan was thrilled - she was ebuillient for at least a week after the attack. It was really hard to see, but she LOVED it. 

I didn't realize at the time, I thought it was good that she didn't go for the throat, b/c I thought it meant she wasn't trying to kill the other dog, but in dealing with trainers and behaviourists, I've since found out what she was doing was disembowling the other dog. Which was also a huge shock. They are all in agreement that Teagan is a dog that is experienced in attacking, and in killing. 

I voluntarily, since the incident, keep her muzzled and leashed outside of the house. I also do a lot of work with her, but I will never, ever, trust her. 

Like your girl, she's great with my other dogs - they are her pack, and she is top dog, second to me. But she's not good with strange dogs. 

Your girl may not have the same issues that Teagan has, or be as aggressive, but multiple attacks really aren't good. I personally wouldn't adopt her out to another home, and I personally would work with her but keep safety precautions (muzzle and leash) in place at all times. If she can't be kept safely in foster care than I would consider euthanasia. JMO though.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Jarn, I'm sorry for all you have gone through with Teagan. You are very responsible with the actions you are taking and realistic about your expectations of Teagan.

Just wanted to comment that it was a sad but very good post.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm sorry too, Jarn. And I admire you greatly for sticking by Teagan, despite everything that has happened.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Well, it was my fault, not hers, so it was never a question of not sticking by her. But thanks both of you









I admit, I haven't been around b/c I was so ashamed by what happened.

Timber1, I know it's hard to deal with an aggressive dog. I'm sorry you're having to do so.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry about what happened with Teagan. That had to be awful to go through. 

I have had some of my dogs fight within the pack, a few times with bloody cuts. I have a hard time separating them myself so I do not let them run together for the most part. 

Thanks for posting. I think that if we all had perfectly behaved dogs, there would be no forum. I am glad you're back.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: jarnI admit, I haven't been around b/c I was so ashamed by what happened.


Please don't let that keep you away. What happened was an accident and no reasonable person would blame you. You'll still find a lot of support here, so just put what happened behind you and start over again. We've missed having you around!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

once a dog has attacked either a human or another dog there is absolutely no way you can tell for sure if or what or when it will bite again. absolutely no way. maybe the dog will never bite anyone or anything ever again. maybe is not good enough. timber1, i hope, i do SO HOPE, that you are lucky...and that none of your personal dogs pay a price.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jarn, that took courage to write that, and it may well help people and especially other dogs. You are doing the best you can with a tough situation. I hope you stay on the boards, your words help.

About Maia: I would get the full shebang thyroid panel.. not the standard one the vets give. It costs more. Even if the rescue will not pay for it, is there a way that you might be able to pay for this for Maia? I know money must be tight, and all-- could you ask the rescue to help with the expense?

This must be hard on you. You just want her to be HAPPY. You are trying hard for Maia. I am sorry for the stress for you in this situation.

I tend to agree with others who say that this dog possibly should remain permanently "in foster care", and never be adopted out. You (or someone else in the rescue who is extremely experienced) know how to manage and handle her better than someone who is thinking "Gosh, I'd like to adopt a pet!" This would be an ideal chance for Maia to be forever kept by someone who could keep her safe from her own tendencies. 

Even with good screening of adopters, a scenario could go like this: Dog is "great with people," so allowed out of crate as visitors schmooze, chat, socialize in the home. One visitor forgot his music CD in his car, saunters out the door casually... and the dog soundlessly zips out the door, bolts down the street and attacks both a Basset hound waddling along, and the 75-year-old frail Grandma trying to break the fight up, opening a sizable wound in her lower leg and one hand.

Consider that Maia may have a wonderful quality of life in a forever-foster-home where someone very savvy and knowledgable is looking after her and never relaxes the boundaries. Perhaps your foster home, or another within the rescue, could provide the expert, consientious care she requires to be safe, and keep other dogs in the world safe, too.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: jarn Within a few seconds, b/c I pulled her off right away, she sliced through the muscle and fatty layers from the front of the thigh to the anus. <span style="color: #FF0000"> I got her off, the man assaulted me</span> , it was all awful - but that poor dog!!!!


What a traumatic incident. Are you ok after the man assaulted you? Geez, it appears to me you did every thing you could and a slight error of judgement (even though it caused damage) should not have resulted in his behaviour. ((







))


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Wow Jarn, what a horrible accident.







I am so glad you are back and Teagn is still with you. You are very responsible adnnI appreciate you for that.










And Timber1, if you adopt this dog out I think you are a very foolhardy person. Sorry, I call it like I see it.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Jarn, your post was outstanding! & this (IMO) is the icing on the cake, *"Well, it was my fault, not hers,..."*

We all make mistakes....sometime bad mistakes & sometimes those mistakes carry consequences for ourselves & others, but we can only learn from our mistakes if we acknowledge them & take responsibility. You have little to be ashamed of & much to be proud of. JMO.



> Quote:The old lady who is protecting her Yorkie and gets a bite in the calf that takes over a year to heal is not going to separate dog aggression from human aggression.


Sue, you make an excellent point. Many frightened, but determined owners are going to dive in without waiting for the larger dog's owner to take action. Seconds can mean life or death to a small dog. Owners of toy & small dogs are acutely aware that they protect their dog & not vice versa. Even many medium or large dog owners will immediately leap into the fray to help their dog. IF another dog is attacking mine, & the owner didn't know enough or care enough to prevent that, why should I trust that person to break up the fight s/he failed to prevent?



> Quoteog has three legs, one eye, half a tail, elbow dysplasia, is deaf, has EPI, and has bloated twice. Answers to Lucky. Interested parties please call....
> 
> I know there is someone out there willing to work with a dog with serious aggression issues, but frankly, I'd rather deal with Lucky.


 You sooo made me laugh with this. And I agree.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> selzer said:
> ...


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Patti, so many replies, but yours hit the bases more then most.

Maia is scheuled for a full exam and thyroid testing on Thursday. For whatever reason, since being adopted over a year ago she put on 20 pounds and nows looks like a small polar bear.

My rescue will support the vet and training expenses to the extent I decide. I am also able to provide financial support.

Maia is happy with me and my other dogs, and so gentle in our home.

Your comment about the guy that goes out to get a CD, is almost precisely what happened when Maia attacked the Pit Bull. I took Maia out to jump in the truck, and bingo, the next thing I know is she has this Pit pinned.

The kicker with me keeping Maia, is I live in a flood plain and am not allowed to put up a fence. So an incident like you describe could happen again.

Maia and I have been working on getting her to settle when strange dogs walk by, and there has been progress. Nonetheless, as I mentioned before I would never be comfortable allowing her off leash.

An experienced adoptee, with a fenced in yard might work. If the person(s) has kids and other dogs Maia will be fine.

I do not understand her behavior and likely never will.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I don't have fences (I rent). Seriously, muzzle her. It's not a big deal to do and it adds an extra layer of safety and hopefully can stop incidents like what happened with the pit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1For whatever reason, since being adopted over a year ago she put on 20 pounds and nows looks like a small polar bear.


You have just described our boxer that has a thyroid problem. Excessive weight gain, aggressive...We can never trust her around strange people or strange dogs and we just deal with it. Banshee also had hair loss and huge bald patches.

I'm glad to see the rescue is going to pay for her workup.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yes this does sound very much like thyroid. Hope it gives you some answers. And if it is medically related, the aggression may diminish with medication.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Kathy,

the results of the thyroid testing and other tests came back today. The results were good in all respects. The thyroid results were right in the mid-range of normal. The vet even questioned why I wanted the thyroid tests done, because apparently if a dog has a thyroid problm there are other signs. 

Let me add this, Maia is the fourth dog I have fostered this year, that has either been on meds, or some suggested the problem could be meidcally related. The prior three I fostered all arrived on meds, and all three were taken off the meds, at the advice of a trainer we work with, not a vet. All were labeled as aggresive, either by a shelter, humane society or previous rescue group. In reality, only one the the previous three were actually aggressive, a dog named named Zoie who is the subject of a prior post.

All three are doing well in their new homes, one adopted by a lady doctor from San Francisco, who cannot figure out why anyone would have put Cowboy on meds.

It just seems like everytime a post comes up about a dog that might seem difficult to deal with, half the people that respond throw out medical reasons. It seems to me very similar to someone drugging their child with Ridalyn, instead of trying to resolve the underlying problem.

Just a thought.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well...you could look at it that way or you could look at it as crossing off all potential problems before deciding on an answer to the problem.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Michelle,

hopefully the potential problems have been crossed off. I must admit I am a bit paranoid, so feel better after the results from the Vet. Are you the same folks that gave us Bella, she is doing great.

What bothers me is so many think a dog's problems are health related. I tend to think must result from abuse, or at best no training.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Some dog's problems are from abuse.
Some dog's problems are from lack of training.
Some dog's problems are from a health problem.
It makes sense to check out all avenues before assuming that the problem is any one of the three. If a dog actually does have a health problem that can be treated with medication then it makes sense to medicate them under a vet's care.
I don't think it is good to assume that all problems that dog's have stem from only one cause. And medical problems are the easiest first thing to check. Yes it costs some money, but if it were me, I would want to check in to all possibilities before I assumed that I knew what the problem was.
At lest in this case you know that thyroid is not the source of the dog's problem since the testing is done.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that when a dog's behavior changes dramatically, you want to eliminate possible health reasons first. 

Think of it this way, if the thyroid test came back positive for a thyroid issue, and the medicine eliminated the aggressive behavior and the old dog returned, no serious behavior modification techniques would be necessary, and you would not feel the need to blame the dog. 

And as bad as this sounds, and it is true with humans and dogs, only a percentage of serious abuse cases turn to aggression. 

It's actually quite frustrating when people come up to a dog and stretch their hands up over the top of the dog's head, and the dog looks up or backs up to look at the decending hand, and the people say, "oh it is so timid, it must have been abused."

There are many reasons for aggression. Abuse and gross neglect is one, another is medical reasons, another is poor nerves, another is lack of socialization/experience, and the list goes on. 

The way I look at it, if there is a physical reason for a behavior and I can manage it with drugs or diet, or understand it and manage it by containing the dog with the understanding that the dog has a physical problem, then ok. If it is something that is caused by pain, like a growing tumor, where an operation is not possible, then a decision should be made for the dog. If it is not physical in nature, then you may have to make a decision for the dog as well. I don't believe every bite case should be euthanized, but I think that some of them maybe should be, in those cases a thyroid condition might be a life saver.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Thanks, the kicker is we have no evident Maia's behavior ever changed dramtically. She came to our rescue group with several dirty and filthy newly born pups. At that time she was probably about three years old. Her first foster, Deb, has a large fenced in yard, and a few kids, also other shepherds. They all got along fine; however, during that time Maia was never in contact with strange dogs.

My hunch is Maia's aggression toward strange dogs existed long before our rescue ever took her in. At Deb's house she had a large fenced in yard and no contact with strange dogs.

Once adopted the situation changed.

I have no answer, just trying to help her to the best of my ability.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Michelle,
> Are you the same folks that gave us Bella, she is doing great.
> 
> What bothers me is so many think a dog's problems are health related. I tend to think must result from abuse, or at best no training.


No. I don't know a Bella but it's nice to know she's doing great anyways. 

It could also be combination of things happening with an animal. I think Banshee losing her littermate exaggerated the thyroid condition with depression. She had a really rough couple of years before she got better.


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