# The concept of "stay"



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I posted on another thread about stays, and how we used to practice stays in class situations under really high distraction levels. I thought about this some more and realized that our dogs back then were calm, accepting, reliable and that I don't see that nearly as much these days in class situations. It seems as though people have become more nervous about pushing their dogs to accept certain training situations that were common back in the "day" (I'm talking 15-20 years ago).

I can remember lining up a large group of dogs for a down stay in an intermediate training class. There were goldens, akitas, aussies, labs, chows, shepherds - all medium to large dogs back then. This was off-leash - once you were out of novice, you just didn't do on-leash stays anymore because dogs were really taught to STAY in novice training. And once the handlers all walked across the ring (or went out of sight, depending on what they were working on) I would have my Australian shepherd do a recall from one end of the dogs to the other - jumping over each dog as she came down the line. I didn't think of it as impressive or unusual in any way. It was just one of those things we did to proof our dogs back then, and everyone accepted it (as did all the dogs).

We did close stays, where the dogs were only a foot apart. We did circle stays, where the dogs were so close that their rumps touched. We bounced balls through the line of dogs and no dog was allowed to break. We walked along the line of dogs and dropped treats a foot or so in front of them - and the dogs didn't break. We really WORKED on stays and it showed.

Now when I teach a class, I find that sometimes it's hard to bring those high distractions into class. I still do it, to a certain extent, but the problem is that dogs who are learning at an intermediate level (which to me means they're past CD level and working on open obedience - off-leash heeling, jumps, retrieves) don't seem to have that solid stay that they should have at that level. And handlers are not nearly as devoted to the training - they don't want to "stress" Fido, they worry about fear levels, they want it all to be fun. I don't think stays are particularly fun unless you have a lazy dog that likes to stay in one place. They're just something that a dog needs to learn.

I also think that a lot of dogs don't have a very strong leadership (this is NOT in reference to the other post - I think Kathy is a pretty strong, devoted handler). People tend to think of their dogs as little people instead of dogs. They let them get away with things that erode the dog's respect for them - which, from the dog's point of view, means that the person doesn't have the right to insist that they stay for any length of time. I love my dogs (too much, maybe), but I fully acknowledge that they ARE dogs and that (for their good as well as mine) they need to learn certain behaviors.

I also love positive training and I'm a huge fan of rewards and motivators. But I see where people teach their dogs to become too dependent on the treat or toy and when that reward is not forthcoming in a quick manner, the dog loses interest. This carries over to the stays in a huge way - expect the dog to hold the stay beyond a certain level and the dog loses interest and then breaks the stay. When it's a training error (and it usually is) it's hard to blame the dog and expect a handler to correct that dog when the dog doesn't understand. And that's when the stays really fall apart. There's no solid basis because the dog was never taught behaviors in small, logical increments, with properly timed rewards and gradual increases in expectations on the part of the handler.

Any discussion on this? Agree, disagree, questions? *L* Sorry for the rambling, was just typing straight out of my head so I hope it all makes sense.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with you, but I think in many instances it is also because handlers are no longer willing to correct the dogs for mistakes. Years ago (and I'm talking 22-25 years) when I was doing my first OB dogs I felt much more comfortable leaving them on a long sit/down. Now, I'll never do a CDX because I don't trust the other dogs to stay put and not bother or harass my dogs.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I strongly, strongly agree with you!!

Stay is one of those things the dog has no choice to do or not and even when you always teach in a positive way, once the dog has learnt then he knows that they have to remain that way, period. I can't compare one dog or another since 99,9% of the dogs I know that don't belong to a trainer or to someone who does Schutzhund or are not trained at all or I receive a "He used to obey, but once the training finished I never took it outside again and he doesn't respond anymore". So if the dogs barely remember how to sit, the less you can ask is a long stay. (Good way to throw away the training money, BTW)



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest People tend to think of their dogs as little people instead of dogs. They let them get away with things that erode the dog's respect for them - which, from the dog's point of view, means that the person doesn't have the right to insist that they stay for any length of time.


The world would be a better place if kids would not get away with whatever they want... then what is left for dogs?


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## Goofy (Sep 27, 2008)

How do you teach a stay? I am trying this with Goofy, but he keeps following me the minute I leave him.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Here’s how I teach the Stay. I have a ton of teeny tiny VERY yummy treats. I have the dog in a sit and I stand so that I am facing the dog, our toes almost touching. Dog is on leash.

Phase 1

I say STAY and I take a step back with my right foot – ONLY that foot. I IMMEDIATELY step forward with that foot, returning to the original starting position and, as long as the dog didn’t move (and there really wasn’t time for them TO move) I say GOOD STAY!! And reward.

I will repeat this, switching which foot I step back with, for about 10 repetitions. Take a break and then do this again for another 10 reps. If it’s a young puppy that all I do for the day. If it’s older dog I will do another one or two sets of reps – depending on the dog.

I will repeat this training for 2-3 days – just like I described.

If the dog does happen to move I will mark the behavior by saying ACK and return the dog to the sitting position before trying again.

Phase 2

I say STAY and I take a step back with my right foot and then with my left foot. I hesitate for a second then step back up to the dog and reward.

I will change up which foot I start with, just so the dog doesn’t think it ONLY means stay if I start with my right foot.

Again – there’s no time involved with this phase. You step back and then step forward RIGHT AWAY.

If the dog does happen to move I will mark the behavior by saying ACK and return the dog to the sitting position before trying again.

Do the same number of reps as Phase 1.


Phase 3

Add time. I say STAY and I take a step back with my right foot and then with my left foot. I count to one in my mind and then step back up to the dog.

Phase 4

Add a step. I say STAY and I take a step back with my right foot, then with my left foot and then again with my right. I do not hesitate but walk right back up to the dog.

The rest of the phases follow 3 & 4. Add time, then add steps.

I also change it up a lot. I’ll takes 4 steps back, wait to the count of five, step back in and reward then take a single step back and return immediately and reward. It keep the dog focused on you – they never know when the treat will appear!









The #1 mistake people make is trying to go too far or make the dog stay too long before they are ready.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Melanie,

I completely agree with you. I remember being in classes like you described. The exercises we did I would NEVER think a basic pet owner today could accomplish with their dog.

I think the average joe pet owner has become very lax in training their dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I do it pretty much the way Lauri does, except that I get a lot more distance from the dog before I even start working on duration. And when I do start with duration, I move closer to the dog at first, so that I'm only doing one thing at a time before eventually combining distance and duration. After that, you can start working with distractions (the 3rd "D"), but you want the distance to be close, and the duration short initially. In the class I learned this technique, they referred to it as the "bungee stay" exercise because you take a step away from the dog and then immediately spring back, like a bungee. 

I don't usually stay at each level for a few days though, often it's only one or two training sessions if the dog "gets it" and isn't breaking the stay at all. As long as I only increase the difficulty in small incremental steps I've found that smart dogs like GSDs grasp the concept very quickly. But it should be tailored to the particular dog you're working with. Some dogs may master the single step back in one training session and be ready for more of a challenge immediately, some dogs may need a lot more time at each step before progressing. 

Incremental steps I use are one step back, return and reward, one step to the side, return and reward, one step to the other side, return and reward. Then two steps, then three steps, etc, work up to the length of a room. Picture a half circle in front of the dog, and use it all, stepping straight back, to the right, and to the left. Work slowly up to being able to walk in a circle around the dog, then return to the front position and reward. Once you can take 10 or 12 steps back, still facing the dog, try taking one or two steps away with your back to the dog. Work up to walking away from the dog the length of the room with your back to him before returning to reward. Step briefly around a corner so you're out of sight for a second before returning and rewarding. Be creative! 

With duration, start with a couple of seconds and work up to longer time, but then mix it up so he doesn't know if it will be a 3 second sit, a 10 second sit, or a 30 second sit. You don't want to be too predictable, or he'll anticipate, and self-release. Only do this when he CAN hold a 30 second sit without releasing. 

I also tie a sit until released to eat to mealtimes, gradually increasing the difficulty level to where I can put the dog in a down with the bowl on the floor right in front of their nose, and they'll hold the stay and not eat, even if I'm briefly out of sight. But it takes a long time to build up to that level of challenge.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm glad to see some people understood my ramblings, and even agree! *L* It was just one of those things I was pondering on, thinking about training classes and how everything seems so different today. And way back then, if you were going to obedience trials, the classes were huge compared to these days. I remember showing Dawson to his CD (first obedience title for both him AND me) and having classes of over 35 dogs in NOVICE A (Novice B class was even bigger). But when I trialed Khana last year there were less than ten dogs in Novice B. It seems that most of the obedience trial classes are less than ten dogs anymore, up here anyhow.

And back in those days it was just accepted that your dog would qualify in novice. I never really even considered the possiblity of a failure - my instructor didn't see any reason for us to fail and so I didn't either. It was more a matter of scores - how high COULD we get (I was in the mid 190's with my novice dog - a GSD, of course - and he was a year old). I put eight CD's on dogs before I ever had an NQ in novice. Even with the CDX, Dawson only took six times to finish the title (for those who don't know, a title takes three qualifying scores). 

I know that my focus in obedience has really changed. I was very competitive at first and I really wanted to train for competition. But there came a point where I settled into a more companionable relationship with my dogs and competition dropped way down the list with me - which then affected my training, because I wasn't training daily or with the intensity I did back when I wanted to compete all the time. 

But even with that lower intensity of training, there were certain things (and still are) that stayed vitally important. And the "stay" is one of those. I see the stay, walking on a loose leash and the recall as three behaviors that are really important in a companion dog - even if you never plan to compete. If everyone would teach their dogs those three behaviors they would have much better relationships. I actually don't think that sit is that important anymore and in fact don't even bother to put it on cue until my dogs are older (Tazer learned it this summer when she was a year old, Khana was probably 6-8 months old before she learned it). My dogs still sat, and would sit when I handed out treats or waited at the door, but it was not a trained behavior on command. It was just what they did. Instead I taught stay (along with down and stand, before I taught sit). Stay meant "stay there in that position in that spot". Khana was doing a beautiful stand-stay at a young age and her debut into the conformation ring at nine months was perfect - she did a gorgeous self-stack and then held the stand-stay for the judge to go over her. 

I personally think focused heeling is a useless exercise unless you're going to compete with your dog. Teaching a dog to walk calmly at your side on a loose leash is much more valuable and that's what we teach to pet people in our classes here. I start out my pet classes with three basic behaviors - stationary attention training, walking on a loose leash, and stay. And our next focus is the recall. Sit and down - they happen, but they're so easy to train that they just aren't really that important to me.

Here I am, babbling again .. *L* .. it's just really interesting to me to think back and consider the changes in thoughts toward obedience and what's important and what isn't.

Melanie and the gang


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I teach a stay way different now than I used to. I used to teach it similar to what's been described - very small increments of change in distance and time until the dog really understood what "stay" meant. I still think those small increments are vitally important - if everyone training their dog would really think about the behavior they're training and then break it into tiny steps, accepting and rewarding each tiny progression on the part of their dog, they'd be able to teach their dog almost anything. The problem is that people get impatient and they have expectations of the dog's understanding that is truly beyond what the dog can do.

I really like having my dogs figure things out for themselves, so I teach the stay in a way that makes the dog realize that movement takes away all possibility of reward. And I do that by using visible food on the floor from the very first session.

I have the dog at my left side, with a flat collar on (leash is optional, usually on but not necessary if you're training alone). I usually place the dog in a sitting position when I first train this behavior. My left hand is in the back of the dog's collar, palm up, holding onto the collar firmly. I take 4-5 small yummy treats in my right hand and I reach out in front of the dog and place the treats on the floor. I don't say "stay" (the dog wouldn't understand it anyway, and I don't ever want to pair "stay" with the dog moving so the command isn't given until the dog has learned the behavior).

Most of the time the dog will immediately try to go to the treats. I simply remain quiet, using the collar to hold the dog back, and never EVER allowing the dog to reach the treats. I wait while the dog attempts to get to the treats. I let the dog be frustrated - it's a good life lesson, you don't always get what you want .. *L*. And it generally doesn't take but half a minute or so before the dog stops and realizes that they're not going to be allowed to move to the treats. And at that point they usually do one of a couple things - they stop and look at the person, or they sit or lay down. 

If they return to the sit, that's immediately praised and I reach forward to grab a treat (quickly!) and stuff it in the dog's mouth. If the dog remains in position, the praising/treating continues without hesitation until the treats are gone. If the dog breaks the position, all verbal communication and treats stop immediately. And then I wait again for the dog to figure out that they have to return to position to get the remaining treats.

On occasion a dog just won't sit. If it takes longer than a minute and a half (which, if you count it out, is quite a bit of time) then I will gently place the dog back into a sit. I don't nag it with "sit! sit! sit!" because that's not what's important at this time. I gently ease it back into a sit and then praise as soon as the butt is down, following that with quick treats as long as the butt stays down. If the butt comes up or the dog lays down, I stop and wait for the dog to think about what has changed and how to "fix" it so that the praise and treats will resume.

I know that a lot of people will read this and think "what an odd way to teach a stay!" but in all honesty, this is the neatest thing to do especially with puppies. We teach 8-12 week old puppies this stay and they will have it figured out at the end of the FIRST session! All the dogs I've ever taught like this have a really good concept of stay meaning "don't move!". They've already tried moving and found that it doesn't work, and that the only thing that brought the treats to them was to stay rock-still.

Once the dog figures out that staying still is the key, then the handler can increase duration (wait for the dog's butt to stay in a sit for five seconds between treats instead of rewarding continuously, then wait for 7 seconds, then 10, etc.) and then you can increase distance (start placing the treats a bit farther away, and then farther, and then to the point of having to leave the dog to place the treats). The dog is so focused on the concept of not being able to move because they never get the treats if they move that it's rare (if done properly) to ever have a dog break a stay.

And as you continue on, you still put the treats out but then treat from your pocket instead, and end with picking up the treats and putting them away so that the dog starts to realize that the treats will come from you instead and those treats on the floor aren't necessarily what they'll get. And when you start moving away, you have to make sure you can always reach any treats on the ground BEFORE your dog does even if that means you have to step on them. After a bit, you just put out one treat, and then no treats (but still treating from your pocket or from a bag of treats on a table, etc.).

The neat thing about this way of teaching stay is that it transfers beautifully to any position - down, sit, stand. When I taught Khana the stand-stay, I simply put a treat down in front of her and she immediately focused (in her head I could see her thinking "woah, I know this one! I don't move!" since she'd already been taught a regular stay). From day one I never had any problems with her moving on the stand-stay, even though she really wanted to visit with the people approaching her. The treat gave her something to focus on, and when she stayed still when a person approached, I immediately praised and brought the treat forward to her mouth for reward. And once she understood, I started treating her from my pocket and then was able to switch to treating her after the entire exercise (stand, stay, leave the dog, examination by stranger, return to dog, release from stay - THEN praise and treat).

By the age of 2 1/2, Khana had been in the performance ring 13 times, with 12 qualifying scores (RN, RA, RE, CD - one time she peed in the ring for an NQ) and never a break on any stay.

Melanie and the gang


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Melanie,

I LIKE that way!! It really has the dog work out for themselves what gets them the treat!!

Might have to try that with my new girl!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I use food on the floor too, but I've never tried it right from the beginning like that, interesting. I do like the presence of treats to mean focus on me. I start teaching that right away - stare at the food all you want and you'll never get it! But stare at ME until released, THAT'S the ticket!

Here's Keef in one of his training classes with food on the floor. He had a bout of SIBO at the time, so he couldn't eat anything but his prescription kibble, so that was our training treat. Thank goodness he's so food motivated that he'd work for kibble, even in the high distraction environment of class, lol!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Lauri, I really like having my dogs figure things out. I truly think that when they can put a reason to a behavior it makes for a more solid behavior. And I also think that dogs need to know what DOESN'T get the reward just as much as knowing what DOES get the reward (if that makes sense!). 

It's a blast doing this with puppies - watching a group of puppy kindergarten pups doing stays with this intent "I gotta hold still even though I'm SO tempted!" look on their faces is just so fun!

Cassidys Mom - you brought up a good point that I didn't even touch on. The focus of the dog should eventually be on the handler, even though initially they are going to look at the food. Once the food starts coming from the person instead of being picked up off the floor, the focus naturally moves to the person - with the dog still recognizing that cue of food (or a toy, for that matter - you can teach this with toys too) in front of them as being a stay-cue. Having that stay-cue is really handy when you start teaching stay in various positions. And when you advance, the dog learns to focus on you when that stay-cue happens because they KNOW that you are the one from who all good things come (i.e. praise and treats and toys .. *L*).

I've really come to value my dog's mind over the past decade and a half. My first training was simply "DO IT BECAUSE I SAID SO" and I had tremendously obedient dogs, but in all honesty that sort of training doesn't teach the dog to think at all. They simply are to respond to your commands with a highly-rehearsed behavior. I have much more fun playing with their minds and seeing how they think and react to prompts. Even though I was successful as a novice trainer (if you judge success simply by my ability to control my dog and earn titles and ribbons), I actually understand and know much more about how my dogs think and learn now even though I don't title much these days. I enjoy THEM more than the competition now, and I think that's a really good step.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

I SchH, we can't use a STAY.
It's simply the last command issued, be it SIT, DOWN or STAND. 

But I too remember before old school was old, and compulsion was king, sessions of STAY with many dogs as you described, lines of dogs on one end, handlers on the other and sequential individual recalls meant to provide distraction and proofing. The circles, the bouncing balls, the treats out front. Who doesn't remember the pic with a line if shepherds and a single black&white cat meandering down the line?

A year ago this month, I won the photo contest with 4 dogs in a down in front of some colorful foliage. One of the comments was "How did you get them to STAY?" My thought was, uhm TRAINING! 

I primarily use praise with pups. They'll do anything for it, as if they
were born trained. In absense of the use of that critical period, consistent and persistence and calmness, with marking, until it is understood, and then corrections if ignored produce quick results.
Still lots of praise, and motivators, treats of toys, but at some point,
unreliable disregard will require correction. Without marking the que word, and understanding of it, correction is abusive, but flagrant disregard is not an option. At some point, that tool is likely going to 
need to be used, whether it's simply a No or Ach!, or physical.

OB implies some discipline. Whether it's witholding the motivating reward and/or physical. NLIF and freedom is our eward. Free to play, be off lead, take the photo, enjoy life with our companions.

Anything else is simply untrained and nowhere near as enjoyable.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I completely agree with you. I remember being in classes like you described. The exercises we did I would NEVER think a basic pet owner today could accomplish with their dog.


I think it depends on the training facility and what their philosophy is.. And, the knowledge of the trainers/instructors.. By the end of our 9 week course we have dogs holding reliable sit/down/stand stays.. A lot also depends on how committed the owners are and what their end goal is..

WE have a lot of folks who go on to compete in the AKC/UKC venue and do extremely well..



> Quote:I think the average joe pet owner has become very lax in training their dogs.


The biggest thing I see is- there is no bond or relationship between dog and handler.. The owners are the ones begging and the dogs could careLESS about them.. That's what I find sad.. So many pet owners have no clue of doggie behavior, what's acceptable and what's not.. 

I won't argue that some pet owners are lazy, they are.. but I also think it stems back from not understanding the canine species..


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

What a cool post!!!! 

Back in the "old days" few dogs broke stays. I have often wondered why? Is it because we are so "positive" we do not want to correct? Or do we just not really understand that positive is not permissive? And that telling the dog they made an error is not necessarily force training?

Melanie referred to me in her first post and essentially she is correct. I am a pretty good leader but Havoc's barking issue is a leadership issue not a dog issue. The stay he broke was mishandled by me. 

We started a leadership class today and when I introduced us I said barking at strangers was a problem for us. He never offered to do that today. I am hesitating - because he barked a few times. Realizing this we can move on.

And work on those stays in a positive but firm manner.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

d0g - I can relate to your reaction when you got the comment about "how did you get them to STAY?". It seems that people - normal people, not weird dog people like us .. *L* - are really impressed by dogs that stay in place on command. Stay, to me, is such a basic behavior but most people don't have dogs that will hold a reliable stay under reasonable distraction.

It also reminds me of the time when a group of us performed in a variety show with our dogs. There were a couple of GSDs (my Dawson and another male), my Aussie and a couple other Aussies, my Chow, a Golden or two, an Akita, etc. It was just a mix of dogs (all purebred, I think, but definitely a variety). One of the questions I got afterwards, from numerous people, was "how do you get all those different breeds to work together?". I always thought that was such a strange concept, that dogs of different breeds would be harder to train together than dogs of the same breed, but evidently a lot of people thought that way.

G-burg - I know that I see a lack of relationship between dog and owner in a lot of the pet people I've worked with (have taught pet obedience classes on and off for nearly 20 years now). The interesting thing is that most of those people, if asked to describe their relationship, would tell me that it was very strong and that they were definitely the leader. In the meantime, their dogs are dragging them around and fighting every time the owners tried to clip a nail or look in an ear. I think a very valid and important part of a relationship is for the humans to provide that leadership that shows the dog - not necessarily forcefully, but in a way that leaves no doubt - that the human IS the one who gets to choose what happens and when and how. 

I can remember a lady who came to me for private lessons with her black lab. She was having all sorts of behavioral problems with this very pushy young dog, but she told me that she WAS the "alpha". I watched this dog push her around, ignore every command, and growl at her when she tried to put hands on. I gave her simple rules to follow at home - basic NILIF for the most part - and at her next lesson she looked at me with this amazed expression and said "wow, what a difference already!". She'd taken control of the relationship finally and the dog went along, of course. It took that change for her to realize that she had never been considered "alpha" by the dog, and just by doing simple day-to-day changes her dog was now viewing her with respect. And she was so typical for people in that she didn't have a clue as to what leadership meant and thought that she just had a really bad dog.

Kathy - I do think that the shift to highly positive methods created a problem in people's thinking (both with dogs and kids). I think that people became very reluctant to insist on behaviors and tended to worry about the emotional side of their dogs (and kids) to an extreme, which then fed into the whole belief that if you ever corrected it would destroy the dog's (or kid's) confidence. And because of that, people failed to provide the boundaries that all dogs (and kids) need - which, of course, the dogs and kids took full advantage of!

I love love LOVE the concept of positive training, but I've also found it valuable to let the dog know when they're doing something I don't want them to do. While free shaping is really fun and neat and something I like to play with, once I've shaped a behavior and the dog starts offering other behaviors instead of the one I ask for, I think it helps keep the dog from being confused when I say "nope!" or "uh-uh!" - when I say that, my dogs stop the unwanted behavior and offer something else. I think it's really important that dogs know what NOT to do as much as what TO do. That's one of the reasons I like the stay training I described. From the first session they're learning that moving doesn't get them anything. And then you can see them really concentrating on not moving. 

I hope you post about the leadership class and what they cover. I've never seen a class just on leadership and I'm interested in what they specifically work on. 

Melanie and the gang


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: I think that people became very reluctant to insist on behaviors and tended to worry about the emotional side of their dogs (and kids) to an extreme, which then fed into the whole belief that if you ever corrected it would destroy the dog's (or kid's) confidence. And because of that, people failed to provide the boundaries that all dogs (and kids) need - which, of course, the dogs and kids took full advantage of!


Exactly!

If people provided those boundaries from the get go and understood what makes dogs tick, there'd be less out of control dogs and folks would have a better relationship/bond..

I believe also that we hear so much about positive re-inforcement, positive training, positive this and positive that.. That people have a false sense.. It makes them feel like they never ever have to correct the dog and that's a huge misconception.. 

Believe me in our classes we use A LOT of positive methods in the beginning, lots and lots of treats for teaching and shaping a behavior, making sure the dog succeeds and understands, then as the weeks go on, we start pushing the dogs more, start expecting more from them.. Start getting after the handlers too... Making sure they are correcting when it's appropriate, showing them how to correct, teach them (the handlers) to be calm and in control with their voice and body language.. And on the flip side we also make sure the dogs are getting rewarded when they are correct or make the correct choice..

WE also don't have the "one method fits all dogs," if we see a technique isn't working for some we will offer other suggestions, we will talk with the owners to make sure they have done their homework and worked with the dog during the week.. If they haven't we ask that they take a step back.. Because it isn't fair to the dog..


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Your classes sound similar to the ones at my club - especially the more advanced classes, where we really start to build on the base that should (hopefully) have been established in the lower levels of training. There comes a time when things must move out of the comfort zone (for both human and dog) or there's just no advancement. But having that solid, highly-reinforced training beforehand is vital.

I took a seminar from John Rogerson once and he mentioned something that I had never really thought about. He said that the most advanced trainers should be teaching the beginning classes and not the other way around. It seems that most places ease new instructors in by giving them puppy classes and beginning obedience. I can see his point - since all training is built from what you and your dog learn initially, it would be most valuable to have very experienced instructors for the early level classes. Students who have come to my more advanced classes without early quality training have a really hard time.

Melanie and the gang


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## kkms (Oct 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI use food on the floor too, but I've never tried it right from the beginning like that, interesting. I do like the presence of treats to mean focus on me. I start teaching that right away - stare at the food all you want and you'll never get it! But stare at ME until released, THAT'S the ticket!
> 
> Here's Keef in one of his training classes with food on the floor. He had a bout of SIBO at the time, so he couldn't eat anything but his prescription kibble, so that was our training treat. Thank goodness he's so food motivated that he'd work for kibble, even in the high distraction environment of class, lol!


OMG i can't wait to get to this point with niko. its so very hard though.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Melanie, I couldn't agree more on your point that the most experienced trainers have to teach the basic obedience. I'm in my CGC class right now and the instructor is busy with that agressive dog working with her all the time while her assistant is running the class. The assistant is VERY inexperienced as a trainer and I'm basically just working on my own stuff with my puppy using the class as a distraction. 

I'm also taking the leadership class with Kathy and WOW, what a difference! Even though the leadership class is much more basic that the CGC class but the trainer's level of a competence and experience makes a world of a difference.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I'm also taking the leadership class


What's a leadership class? What exercises do they teach?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The leadership class is not an obedience class it is a relationship class. They use a lot of follow me games, massage and calming exercises. They will teach sit, down, come, walk on lose leash and curb (wait). The curb exercise is not really a wait in one spot, it is a boundary exercise - as in do not cross into this space.

The class is geared toward helping owners that have relationship based issues with thier dogs and to help folks like Oksana and I that heve a pretty handle on our relationships, to improve on it. I think every dog and his person should take a class like this. 

We are trying to get BlackGSD to come down with Siren and go to a class with us........

Once you pay for the series of 4 classes you can repeat with your dog as aften as you like, it is for the life of the dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

When we had our forst class on Saturday we all introduced oursleves adn one problem we had with our dogs. I said Havoc was barking at strangers. The instructor said he has not even offered to do that here. She really liked Havoc.


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## Ledera (Oct 19, 2008)

Stay was the first command I taught Sophie. I have her sit and stay before we leave to go out, she then comes in and sits without me prompting her to, staying in that position until I give her a treat.....it's a very important command for them to know asap. Sophie and I are working on the "look at me" tool. We are 2 weeks in and she's really picking up on it. I want her to pay attention to me and only me, regardless of what's going on around her. I take a treat in my hand, have her sit and I put the treat up to my nose, point at the tip of my nose with treat in hand and tell her "look at me". The minute she makes eye contact with me, she gets the treat. We are at a point now where she looks at me and waits for her release command from sit/stay position, prior to going outside or eating. I have never allowed her to go to her bowl without my telling her it was ok to. She will sit, stay and wait for how ever long it takes before she takes one kibble out of her bowl....and now she looks straight into my face for her release command. It's amazing. 

The only real challenge I've had, educating her wise, is at the front door when the bell is rung by anyone. Sophie tries to bombard the door and take over, either barking perfusely at whom ever is at the door, or jumping up to greet those she knows and accepts into our house. Neither behaviour is acceptable to me, but I wasn't sure how to correct it properly. Now I make sure I have a bag of treats with me when I go to the door, I have her sit while I give her the "stay" command and I feed her treats everytime I tell her to stay. She tries to get up before I give her the release command, because she is dying to know who is at the door and either wants to greet them or scare them away!







It's in my mind that she will greet whom I allow her to, and not on her terms, but on mine. It's taken a lot of patience to come this far with the front door issue, and by this far I mean, she will sit while I give her treats, but is too anxious to stay and wait for the release command.....it's a work in progress.......she's a gem in all other areas, I suppose she can't be perfect at EVERYTHING! LOL









Ledera


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks for explaining Kathy!! Sounds interesting..


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: kkms


OMG i can't wait to get to this point with niko. its so very hard though. [/quote]

It's actually not that hard! The more your dog is into food, the easier it is to teach him to ignore it and focus on you. Focus becomes the path to getting the food, staring at the food or breaking the stay to try and get it means he'll NEVER get it - they pick that concept up very quickly.

Keefer was 6-1/2 months old in that picture, but I had been having him sit and wait until released with his bowl on the floor since he was a little puppy, pretty much as soon as he knew the sit command. 

Not a great quality pic, but here he is at almost 5 months old - I had worked up slowly to where I could be on the other side of a closed gate and he would still wait until being released, even though he could have easily had his head in the bowl before I could have stopped him:










Kathy, sounds like a great class - I'd love to hear more about it too - what kinds of exercises you're doing each week.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I'll let you know this next week!!!!! I took Kayos through this class 3 years ago and we had a good time.


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## kkms (Oct 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: kkms
> ...


It's actually not that hard! The more your dog is into food, the easier it is to teach him to ignore it and focus on you. Focus becomes the path to getting the food, staring at the food or breaking the stay to try and get it means he'll NEVER get it - they pick that concept up very quickly.

Keefer was 6-1/2 months old in that picture, but I had been having him sit and wait until released with his bowl on the floor since he was a little puppy, pretty much as soon as he knew the sit command. 

Not a great quality pic, but here he is at almost 5 months old - I had worked up slowly to where I could be on the other side of a closed gate and he would still wait until being released, even though he could have easily had his head in the bowl before I could have stopped him:










Kathy, sounds like a great class - I'd love to hear more about it too - what kinds of exercises you're doing each week. 
[/quote]

i am trying the focus with a cookie reward. but he is so very easily distracted. today i tried it with on of his favorite squeaky toys. but he lost interest really quick.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Kathy and Oksana, I think that class sounds really neat! I don't know if we'd have enough demand for it here. I've noticed that people here tend to either think they already have a good relationship with their dog, or they just want to train obedience exercises and don't see any need to do this "touchy-feely" stuff. 

Ledera, it sounds like you have a really great start with your dog! The behavior at the door is pretty classic. I know all of mine get really excited when someone comes to the door, and even more when they see that it's my Mom or brother .. *L* .. I don't worry too much about it anymore, I figure they're my alarm system and I know they'll stop barking when I insist.

kkms - if your dog loses interest early in the focus game, you probably should go to much higher level treats. Instead of cookies, use little bits of cheese or meat. I have steps set up for teaching focus with treats on my website (www.kippdogs.com/tips.html). You WANT him to know you have really yummy treats so that he learns to look away from the temptation and at your face. In my method, my hands are within easy reach of the dog and initially they lick and nose at my hands until they learn that it just doesn't work - they only way to get a treat is to look at my face. It's very effective and helps them figure out that focusing on the treats is never the right behavior (which is nice later on when teaching more advanced behaviors).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## kkms (Oct 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestKathy and Oksana, I think that class sounds really neat! I don't know if we'd have enough demand for it here. I've noticed that people here tend to either think they already have a good relationship with their dog, or they just want to train obedience exercises and don't see any need to do this "touchy-feely" stuff.
> 
> Ledera, it sounds like you have a really great start with your dog! The behavior at the door is pretty classic. I know all of mine get really excited when someone comes to the door, and even more when they see that it's my Mom or brother .. *L* .. I don't worry too much about it anymore, I figure they're my alarm system and I know they'll stop barking when I insist.
> 
> ...


i am trying to get to your website and it says there is no such website. i want to read it.

is it ok to treat with those things? will he not only always want that to eat? ARGGGG help!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm having some problems with my site right now - sorry about that! Hopefully it will be up again soon.

It's okay to use really nice treats for training sessions. You just don't want to overdo it. Keep the treats very small (tiny cubes of meat or cheese, etc.) and hand them out one at a time. You might give three or four while praising, but give each separately while you praise. The idea is not to fill him up but to give him something he REALLY wants. 

I use "high level" treats when in really distracting areas, and "low level" (like biscuits) in places where the dogs aren't very distracted. For my dogs, that means I can train with kibble in our own shop. If out in public where there are a lot of people and dogs around, I will probably carry bits of beef heart, chicken breast, etc. For rewards at an obedience trial where things are more tense and much more distracting, I'll use an ARby's roast beef sandwich or something equally tasty. It all depends on how much I'm going to be asking of my dogs.

Now, with GSDs you can probably get away with not using quite as high level treats as I do with my Chows (who are not the most naturally obedient dogs in the world .. *L*). My older girl, Trick, could be trained with snowballs - as long as she thought I was going to pick up some snow and throw it for her, she'd do anything I asked! And praise went a LONG ways with the shepherds, but is not nearly as enticing to the chows. So some of this will depend on your dog and how much he relates to you.

I've never had a problem using really good treats and then not having my dogs want to eat their regular meals. But I do keep a mental calculator of how much I'm giving my dogs, and if they've trained a lot that day I might cut their meal down a bit to avoid giving them too many calories. And I usually train when they're hungry, which makes treats even more enticing.

Hopefully my website will be up soon - I'm going to email my webhost provider again and see if he's on it!

Melanie and the gang


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

There is something our agility instructor calls fast food and fine dining. Both require the same amount of food reward but delivered differently.

Fast food is you tell the dog good job and give him the treat. Fine dining is for a WOW reward!!! You use the same piece of soft food and break into micro pieces and rapid fire the reward one piece at a time. 

What is funny is you are giving the same amount of food but the dog will work harder for fine dining than they will for fast food.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Kathy, your leadership class sounds wonderful. Please share what you do as you go along!

I am a "pet person" and my training goal is to have a good partner/friend. One thing I've found that works so well with GSDs is to find a way to somehow communicate to them that they are doing a job. I don't care about attention heeling - but want sit, down, stay and a great recall for day-to-day life. 

The job/work thing is kind of an attitude - maybe another way to describe/think about "leadership"? As an example, our last Shepherd, Klaus, took his "job" of helping us get the mail VERY seriously. Each day, we would tell him, "Time to get the mail!" and he would spring to attention, follow us to his appointed spot on the driveway, down, and wait for us to return with the mail. We would release him, show him the mail, and thank him profusely for his help. He was thrilled and looked forward to this every day. We never "proofed" him (with the exception of the occasional barn cat passing by), but his focus was amazing, he never moved and was definitely on a mission.

This probably sounds silly, but finding things like this that allow us to actually apply the otherwise seemingly senseless sit/down/stay/recall stuff in normal life is key for us in developing a good partnership.

Our new pup, Luther, accompanies me each day to clean the horse stall. In the beginning, when he was a baby, he learned to stay away from the horse and out of the stall when I was in there. I would stop every few minutes to toss a ball for him or just make a little fuss. By six months old, he was a real pain in the neck - always searching for attention - now old enough to have his own job. So he has a job, too, and is in a down-stay in "his" place while I work. I talk to him and tell him what a good boy he is and thank him for his help. We are both MUCH happier.









Being a GSD, Luther LOVES water and carrying water buckets back and forth became a real problem. (Tough to do with a big dog diving into the bucket every few steps) So - we did a little work and now Luther's job is to bring his Jolly Ball on the trips back and forth. He sits and waits while I put in the water bucket and then I throw the ball for him.

Many years ago, we took our first dog (and subsequent ones) to a wonderful trainer who did teach all the requisite stuff, but also taught how to apply it in day-to-day life. His sense of humor was amazing and those classes were really fun. We did all kinds of things - including trying out agility equipment. No one left with a snappy attention heel, but all had the beginnings of great relationships. 

The transition from formal obedience classes to day-to-day life is not intuitive for a lot of people. It sure wasn't to me! From many classes today, one gets the idea that if you tell your dog to sit several times a day, he will learn it and life will be good. A connection to things like sit and wait to be released for dinner as the dog's part of the feeding "job" - gets lost for many.

I am no great trainer - we would be a disaster in a show ring - and encounter our share of problems - but I am so grateful to our first instructor from many years ago, who taught us how to do the initial training, and then use our imaginations and incorporate our dogs into our lives.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Martie, what an excellent post! You are absolutely right that the behaviors taught in obedience classes should (first and foremost) be carried over to the everyday activities that people do with their dogs. And yes, I can see that with many people the concept gets lost.

When I first started taking (and then teaching) obedience classes, we had huge groups (20-30) and taught in a big school gym. We expected about a 50% drop-out rate. Everything was done with choke collars and lots of corrections. Relationships, leadership, and practical day-to-day application of behaviors was never discussed. Basically we were teaching the people how to pass a novice obedience trial class, so they learned heel, sit, down, stay, stand for exam, and recall. And the last night of the eight week session was a "test" where each person had to go through the novice obedience exercises and get scored. All-in-all, it scared a lot of people and even those who made it to the last week would often not show up because they didn't want to take the "test".

I'm very happy to say that the classes I taught evolved into much more sensible and user-friendly classes. The idea moved from having a competition dog to having a good family pet. We started using more rewards, tying in the ideas of what we were doing to practical uses around the house, and discussing relationship and leadership and how to develop good leadership through non-aggressive ways. I started having 100% of my students stay with the class throughout the entire six weeks. And our last night of class was games that showed how much the dogs had learned. 

Part of the concept of leadership is to recognize and address what the dog needs - including "jobs" for dogs. Every dog needs a job, whether it be bringing in the paper, waking up the kids, keeping a lap warm .. *L* .. and dogs with established jobs are happier and have better relationships with their owners. Structure is a GOOD thing and helps people avoid having problem behaviors crop up in their dogs.

Kathy - I LOVE the "fast food" and "fine dining" idea! I may have to borrow that .. *G*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Martie, I do compete with my dogs but they are family pets first. So I too require the same things you do. The leadership class is designed for the plain old family pet. It has nothing to do with competition. Although I do compete and can translate the obedience to the house environemnt, many cannot. And the leadership class is always a good reminder to me that the home environment is far more important than training for the ring.

On week one we sat and lsitened to lecture about what dogs need in llife. Exercise, discipline, consisteny, affection. We learnd how and when to give this things. The instructor talked about using drag lines and management. Then we did a simple neck massage to relax and calm our dogs. Then we learned the follow the leader walk. The handler walks backwards and the dog walks forward following the handler. This will be translated into a loose leash walk. 

With the follow the leader walk the dog must walk to you. If the dog resists the dog is popped with the collar. No it is not jerked, the pop is a hey you, I'm moving - move with me.

Our homework handout describes how to interact with your dog when it is calm, how to move your dog on a drag line, suggestions for exercise. And requires the neck massage and follow the leader walk to be practiced several times a day. Then we are required to do a short leash power walk every day - basically a Cesar Milan type walk for lack of a better word to describe it. it is just a head up, standing straight, I am in charge walk. 

Tomorrow is week 2 and we will do more work this week.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Kathy, thanks for filling us in on what's happening in the class! I find it really interesting.

The "follow the leader" method is what I use to teach my beginners how to start their dogs on a loose-leash walking, except we use treats too. The handler has her hands together at her stomach, with treats hidden inside. The dog follows the handler as they back up and is given a treat every step, then every other step, and gradually fewer and fewer treats until the dog is following well without being treated frequently. This also helps teach the dog a nice front position once we start recalls. 

Once the dog is following consistently, the handler pivots so that the dog is at the left side on a loose leash, and rewards that position. It's really effective, and if the dog starts to pull on the leash the person just falls back into the "follow the leader" exercise, backing up so that the dog follows again. It gives a way to visually and physically bring the dog's focus back to the person.

Please keep letting us know how the class goes! 

Melanie and the gang


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Melanie, your class sounds wonderful! No wonder people are staying throughout. You're doing a great thing for people - and especially their dogs. Most people with a new dog/puppy need to know - or be reminded - of the things you are teaching - and they need to have fun. It IS fun to have a new puppy (along with frustrating and exhausting!). 

Thank you, too, for further explaining the "Follow the Leader" method. I had not heard of that.

Kathy, thank you so much for sharing your Leadership Class activities. I (and I know so many others) will be really interested in how it progresses and if you think it enhances your relationship with your dog. Sounds pretty darned good already!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That's the technique Suzanne Clothier demonstrated at the seminar I went to. She didn't use a name for it, but it was exactly as you described.


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