# BAD Breeder



## LaRen616

My GSD Sinister is a great, amazing, beautiful dog that I absolutely adore :wub: but he came from a BYB and his parents are no longer listed on there website and I find that weird . When I took Sin to the Vet he let out a little cry when she was moving his back left leg around to see if it was ok. She did Xrays and said that he has very, very mild HD but we wont know the real outcome or how it will effect him for another year (he is only a year old). I called his breeder to let her know and she told me to bring him back and they would have him PTS!!!  They told me they would not give me my money back but they would give me another puppy, I DONT WANT ANOTHER PUPPY, I LOVE MY BOY! When I asked her why she would put him to sleep not knowing if his HD would ever hurt him or effect his life she told me that no one wants a dog with HD. I told her I would never dream of taking back my boy only for him to be PTS and that I wasn't looking to give him back or get another puppy, I just wanted my money back. How could someone give back their dog after having it for almost a year????? I would never recommend her ever and I think she's running a really crappy business.


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## Mrs.K

WOW! You don't put them down if it is just mild HD. ****, there are dogs successfully in sport that have mild HD and it doesn't affect them one bit.


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## GSDBESTK9

She should at least give you half the money back.


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## Baby Byron

Big hugs to you and your boy. Sorry you had to hear such load of garbage from his breeder. Mild HD in most cases as others said won't affect the dog's life. Geez... PTS a one year old... what was this person thinking????


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## MaggieRoseLee

Start up with Esther - c for your puppy, and glucosamin/Chondrotin. Keep him lean and exercise as much as you can because strong muscles will help take the pressure off the joint. 

Alot of our dogs have laxity in their hips so will fail their x-rays, but still live long and healthy lives. 

Ester-C: Miracle Cure for Hip Dysplasia???

Hip Dysplasia in Dogs: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention

As far as getting a new puppy or money back or whatever........that should have been clearly spelled out in the Puppy Agreement you signed when you purchased the puppy. If it didn't say they would refund, then they told you up front that they wouldn't...


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## Kayla's Dad

Sorry, but you just need to put this into the lessons learned book. It's a good thing that you found out early so you can manage it. Put your focus there - it sounds like you've already written off the breeder (another good thing) Not worth spending any energy thinking about them.


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## LaRen616

In the paperwork it says that they will either take your puppy and give you a new puppy or give money back, it depends on the situation. But I would be saving her money by keeping my boy and getting my money back instead of her taking him and having to pay for him to be PTS and then giving me a puppy that she wont be able to make money off of right? Why cant she let me keep my boy and get my money back? She would be putting down a great dog for a tiny reason


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## JKlatsky

Just want to add, I wouldn't necessarily go jumping to worst case scenarios. Is your vet an experienced Ortho vet? If not, what she calls very very mild HD, might actually be nothing. I would consider monitoring and supplementing and going back for a 2nd opinion in a year or so to see how everything developed. 

Truthfully, sometimes they cry because they don't like their leg being twisted around. Sometimes it's muscular. In my experience, very very mild HD is not symptomatic in a young dog. Meaning I wouldn't expect their to be pain in the joint. I've seen several mildly dysplastic and moderate dysplastic dogs who compete regularly with no noticeable issue.

What did your contract look like? If you didn't have one, then you do not have the right to expect anything. You basically purchased the Puppy As Is. If they are not abiding by their contract then I would be angry. [ETA- Just saw your post. DH is a lawyer, so how things are worded is important. If it's at their discretion, it's at their discretion. The simple fact of the matter is that right now they may not have the money, so they offer the other option of a replacement puppy. I know you're upset and I'm not necessarily saying that they are a good breeder. The reality is that many contracts write guarantees so that you don't want to use them so they don't have to give them. This includes reputable and disreputable breeders. That's why i consider the majority of guarantees to be worthless.]

I don't like that they offered to put the Puppy to sleep, although I think sometimes that is the responsiblity of the breeder. A crippled dog that is in pain or has some kind of genetic issue is sometimes is better off euthanized. I wouldn't consider mildly dysplastic that kind of issue. In this case, I think they wanted you to keep the puppy and weren't above using a little guilt. 

Also, I guess I just don't get this concept of "guarantees" when it comes to our pets. I think it's a marketing gimic. I understand people purchasing breeding animals. Obviously, if your primary goal is to have an animal that can certify for breeding then that's what you want....but a companion animal? There isn't a person on here who can "guarantee" that a puppy will be free of dysplasia. If you're getting a dog and you've done the proper research then you KNOW this. Like kids, dogs have a way of growing up in ways we don't expect. I mean if you adopt and your kid turns out to have a learning disability or some kind of health issue do you get to return it? Does the agency give you back part of the money?

I bought from a breeder who didn't offer a guarantee. I was satisfied with the health and temperament of the parents, and the health and temperament of the puppies at the time of purchase. I talk to the breeder every couple of months when she checks to see how everyone is doing. And I know that if I had a problem she would take the dog back in a heartbeat because she loves her animals and is proud of what she has produced. 

But when I signed the paper and took that puppy home, he became my responsiblity, not hers. I don't know...just me.


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## GSDSunshine

not much to add, but i was wondering about the vet visit as well. The pain sounds like it could have been Pano, did he/she check the long bones. I would also be curious about the vets ability to acurately read the x-rays.


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## LaRen616

I got a 2 year hip guarantee and the paperwork stated "They will either take your puppy and give you a new puppy or give money back, it depends on the situation."


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## LaRen616

*GSDsunshine*
We took him in for a complete check up. When she tested his right leg it was fine and he did not cry. When she did his left leg he cried. She gave him a little while and said it could be sore from playing with his other GSD buddy. She tried it again and he cried out again. She said that he could be bruised but recommended that he get an Xray. So he got the Xray and she said that it looked like it is early HD. She told me that it is not for sure but that there is a good chance that it is. She said I should bring him back in for another Xray when he turns 2 (so in a year). She also said that if it is HD he could still live a normal happy and painless life or it could go the opposite. I wonder if the breeder has had problems with any of the other pups from the litter because she was very rude and immediately defensive


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## JKlatsky

LaRen616 said:


> I got a 2 year hip guarantee and the paperwork stated "They will either take your puppy and give you a new puppy or give money back, it depends on the situation."


 
I'm not saying it's right. but if that's what it says then I would say that they are abiding by their contract. (Although it's a terrible contract if it's that vague) It doesn't say what situation, it merely says the situation. Whose situation? The dog's? Yours? Their personal financial situation? 

It's an "or" and they're offering you one of the options. If you choose not to take it, then you are choosing not to avail yourself of the provisions of their guarantee. Live and learn.


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## onyx'girl

JKlatsky said:


> I don't like that they offered to put the Puppy to sleep, although I think sometimes that is the responsiblity of the breeder.
> 
> Also, I guess I just don't get this concept of "guarantees" when it comes to our pets. If you're getting a dog and you've done the proper research then you KNOW this. Like kids, dogs have a way of growing up in ways we don't expect. I mean if you adopt and your kid turns out to have a learning disability or some kind of health issue do you get to return it? Does the agency give you back part of the money?
> 
> I bought from a breeder who didn't offer a guarantee.
> _I was satisfied with the health and temperament of the parents, and the health and temperament of the puppies at the time of purchase._
> I talk to the breeder every couple of months when she checks to see how everyone is doing. And I know that if I had a problem she would take the dog back in a heartbeat because she loves her animals and is proud of what she has produced.
> 
> But when I signed the paper and took that puppy home, he became my responsiblity, not hers. I don't know...just me.


Completey agree. If you do your *research* and look at what the breeder has produced in the past, you can see whether or not there are issues. 

Many breeders don't care once they have your money and will continue to pump out litters, easier to replace a pup than fix a problem. The throw away society we live in...
and how do you know if you get a replacement, that pup would be healthy?


I also agree that the vet should have positioned your pup correctly/ and have experience in reading them or sent you to an ortho vet.
Did he even mention it may be Pano? 
Onyx was diagnosed with "severe HD" at 6 months, horrid positioning and lucky for us after doing research on it, it was only a bout of Pano.
And if your pup does have HD, get on the supplements now, so he will thrive as he grows!


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## Liesje

The agreement is too vague and should have been clarified before the dog was purchased.

The first thing I would do is see a good radiologist or ortho vet, someone that specializes in this area and knows how to take a proper x-ray. You cannot rule HD in or out by and external exam or moving the dog's leg, it is confirmed with x-rays, but the positioning of the x-rays is super important. There are probably people on this forum that can give you a more accurate reading than many non-ortho vets, provided the x-rays are done correctly.


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## aubie

Start up on gluc/chron supplements and some EsterC. Anna may have mild displaysia in her left hip (seen during her 1 year-ish xray) but we've become proactive.

She's lean and active and once it's warmer (and less flood like here) we're going to step up her water activities.


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## codmaster

What makes you think that you should be able to both keep the dog AND have the breeder return your money? 

In a contract case, I have always heard that the courts can make you whole (as in before the contract) BUT not better than before the contract.

OTOH, perhaps the breeder could return a portion of the purchase price since the dog should be less valuable if it really does have HD??

Tough circumstance and you certainly have my sympathy!


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## LaRen616

Well I am keeping him. I would never give him up. I just think that thats a really crappy buisness she has. I mean who would give up their pet just so he could be PTS and then you end up with another puppy from this crappy breeder that might even end up the same way? I have read on other breeders websites that they give longer guarantees like 3-5 years and they will let you keep your dog and will either give you another puppy or they will give you back your money. All I know is that in the future I will be asking you guys who I should go with when I am looking for another PB GSD and I will plan on spending more than $600 (what I paid for him)


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## Jax08

Do you know the parents hip ratings? Can you post Sinister's pedigree on pedigreedatabase with the parents hip ratings as well? That would be the only way to attempt to warn the next ppl that will buy from this person.


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## LaRen616

I will have to scan his pedigree onto the computer. I got him from ****name of kennel and location removed by Admin****. His father is no longer on their website, which worries me


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## arycrest

LaRen616 said:


> Well I am keeping him. I would never give him up. I just think that thats a really crappy buisness she has. I mean who would give up their pet just so he could be PTS and then you end up with another puppy from this crappy breeder that might even end up the same way? I have read on other breeders websites that they give longer guarantees like 3-5 years and they will let you keep your dog and will either give you another puppy or they will give you back your money. All I know is that in the future I will be asking you guys who I should go with when I am looking for another PB GSD and I will plan on spending more than $600 (what I paid for him)


I'm sorry your puppy may have HD. If he does, I hope he won't have any further problems with it.

I agree with others that the breeder offered you what was in the contract - take the puppy back and give you a new puppy or a refund. BUT I also agree that some breeders say they'll put a puppy down in order for the puppy owner to void the contract and back out of the agreement like you did - this ploy saves them a lot of money I'm sure. 

I'm sure the next time you get a puppy you'll be more careful reading the contract, asking questions, understanding it, etc. However, I honestly don't think price has much to do with guaranteeing that you'll get a better dog or finding a more reputable breeder - there are good breeders who don't charge an arm and a leg, and there are bad breeders whose prices are sky high. While it's true, the majority of the Hooligans were given to me as gifts, I've never paid more than $500 for the ones I paid for and they've all been fantastic dogs.


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## lhczth

LaRen, is your vet experienced with taking HD x-rays and evaluating those x-rays? Many vets are not. Most breeders also require OFA readings on the x-rays and/or having their vets examine the x-rays. 

Mild HD is far from a death sentence, rarely causes pain and at a year, the hips can still tighten. If the dog is in pain already I, personally, would be looking for another source for that pain.


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## MaggieRoseLee

lhczth said:


> LaRen, is your vet experienced with taking HD x-rays and evaluating those x-rays? Many vets are not. Most breeders also require OFA readings on the x-rays and/or having their vets examine the x-rays.
> 
> Mild HD is far from a death sentence, rarely causes pain and at a year, the hips can still tighten. If the dog is in pain already I, personally, would be looking for another source for that pain.


You really need to read that statement above. Cause it absolutely true and should be reassuring.


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## holland

Yep...my first GSD had mild HD He lived a long healthy life...I never thought his breeder was crappy and I don't think we ever had a contract


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## RubyTuesday

At this point I'd question the vet at least as closely as the breeder. Too many vets assume GS will have HD & are prone to seeing what they expect to see.

IF you get him x-rayed again at 2 be certain it's an experienced vet & that you get good positioning.

There are dogs that have worked &/or competed til 10 with moderate HD. One thing in their favor is that they're very, very fit & strong. IF your guy has HD it's important to develop an appropriate fitness/exercize program. Note that it must build strength without further damaging joints, ie swimming NOT jumping.


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## onyx'girl

I wouldn't wait til the dog is 2, I'd get a good assessment now, just for my piece of mind. If you can post the x-rays here, maybe some of the more experienced can give you their opinion on positioning and the joints. You can go in to your vet and ask to have the films put in their lightbox, take digitals and post them here.


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## Jessiewessie99

Either take her to court, or get a better vet???


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## selzer

You do not have a leg to stand on in court. The contract says that you must return the puppy for another pup or a refund and that is fair, or at least it is what you agreed to, and they seem to be willing to abide by it. 

Guarantees do not guarantee that your dog will not have a problem, but that if the dog does have that problem the breeder will make some compensation. 

I do not refund money. Sorry, but all the money that comes out of producing a litter goes into producing the litter. I spend way more on my dogs than what I make on the few pups I sell. Producing an HD puppy costs just as much as a pup without HD. 

And just because you went the extra mile and have hip and elbow rating on sire and dam does not mean you will not produce puppies with HD. It does not make you a bad breeder. 

My contract allows the purchaser to keep the puppy. If they send in the x-rays to the OFA at two years, I will provide a replacement puppy if the dog does not pass the OFAs. But I also require proof that the current dog has been alterred. 

If your dog has an issue it is good to know, definitely start the ester C. I am curious as to what you are feeding as well and if your pup is lean or heavy. You may want to limit things like training him on agility equipment or jumps, but let the puppy be a puppy. Exercise is a good thing. Mildly dysplastic dogs will generally grow the muscles they need to live a good life symptom free. 

Many, many breeders have the clause in their contract that requires the pup to be returned. They will PTS, because they do not want to deal with people who have a dog of theirs with a problem, even if that problem was disclosed up front, people can be a PITA. So they will just put the pup to sleep, and it keeps most people from returning the dog and claiming a replacement. While it is a common clause, I think it really does smell. 

Good luck with your dog. Chances are he will be able to do most anything. I do not like it that your vet caused him to cry out. HD can only be diagnosed with x-rays, so I do not know what they were thinking except maybe trying to solicit x-rays? I do not remember, did you take him in because of symptoms, limping, etc?


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## robinhuerta

Selzer....I agree with your post.
Also..I would like to ask...was your puppy purchased as a future "breeding prospect"?
We also do not refund a purchase price of a puppy (usually)...we also usually offer a "replacement" as compensation....(unless otherwise agreed upon).
Mild HD is not a death sentence...as Selzer stated, and the dog should be able to live a normal, healthy life as a personal companion. HOWEVER:...if the puppy was being purchased as a form of sport dog or breeding prospect...then the hips and elbows must be able to be "certified" acceptable for breeding.
I think that before you condemn your breeder, perhaps you should try to reach a compromise. 
Why do you consider the breeder "bad"?...just because their "choice" of compensation is not what you "wanted"?.....or because they have the unfortunate luck of producing a puppy with mild HD?.....I guess, I'm missing something....?


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## LaRen616

*Selzer*
I feed him Solid Gold Wolf King but I might change to Solid Gold Barking At The Moon. He is lean and tall. Very energetic and no limping. I took him into the Vet for a physical. We just wanted to make sure that he was in great health. She was going over his whole body with her hands checking for lumps and everything else. She then grabbed his right leg and moved it around to check the mobility and then when she did it with his left leg he cried out.

*Robinhuerta*
No, he was not purchased as a breeding prospect, he was purchased as a companion dog but we do have rights to breed him if we want. We know that he can live a healthy life even if he does have mild HD, the breeder is the one who said that she would have him PTS because no one wants a dog with HD. The reason I say she is a bad breeder is because she DID NOT care at all about one of her puppies that she produced. She gave him a death sentence even though he could still live a happy life. She was rude and showed no interest in what I was telling her and she had no heart or feelings towards my puppy. It made me feel like all she cared about was the money. When she breeds puppies she has 3 or 4 litters all at once. My bofriend and I are very disappointed with her and the way she runs her BYBing


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## robinhuerta

LaRen616
I understand your "disappointment"....it HAS happened to many of us at one time or another.
The silver lining is......your dog should be happy & healthy living a normal life with you, even with mild HD.
I really do hope that you and the breeder can reach a better "agreement".....
Robin


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## LaRen616

Me and the breeder are no longer speaking. She has no interest in our little issue, I just hope I help other people by not getting a puppy from her.


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## welder101

LaRen616 I sent you a PM


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## GSD07

robinhuerta said:


> LaRen616
> I understand your "disappointment"....it HAS happened to many of us at one time or another.


 That's very true, your situation, unfortunately, isn't unique. Some very  people are hiding sometimes under the 'reputable breeder' front. At least your breeder was willing to take the puppy and PTS herself. My breeder told me to put my dog to sleep myself and then come to her and she would give me the replacement  . Yeah, right...


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## selzer

It sounds like you chose a breeder who has some red flags. Now you know that she does not care. BUT, I think a lot more breeders will HAVE to go the route of PTS on a return puppy due to the types of legislation they are passing that limits the numbers of dogs people can have. The one state is trying for a limit on pets of three, the rest have to be breeding dogs. This means if you had to have an emergency spay on your bitch and you already have retired dogs, one would have to be PTS. Keeping every returned puppy and offering them a temporary or a forever home might not even be a possibility. 

I do not know what the rules and regs are in your area, and as you are not a breeder, I doubt that you do off the top of your head, but it is wise for all of us to stay on top of such laws and squash them before they happen. 

If the OP wanted his dog for breeding or agility and now would like to replace the puppy for another puppy, that would not even be a consideration.

To the OP, I am actually surprised that the statement did not say "crippling hip dysplasia" like the first dog I bought with a guarantee said. I am shocked that she did not even try to explain what we did with about mild hip dysplasia.

Lastly, I have never yet taken a dog to the vet and have them check mobility. Maybe that is not strange. I would be interested if other people have had similar experiences and if they too were encouraged to x-ray. A sentence of mild hip dysplasia may not be correct. I do wonder if the vet was drumming up business. I wonder if he was soaking you. Making the dog cry though, that is strange.

Is your dog neutered?


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## LaRen616

No he is not neutered. We didn't take him there just to check his mobility. We had her check his ears, eyes, body for lumps, temperature, mouth, everything. Thats when she checked his legs.


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## onyx'girl

LeRen, I would still question the x-ray positioning and the vets qualification in reading them...


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## debbiebrown

i think breeders don't like to hear about any bad issues with their pups.........but at the very least they should offer something to the buyer. in this case at the very least some support would have been appreciated........the breeder could have offered info on supplementing the pup, inviromental info, etc..........even if there was no money back, any buyer would appreciate some assistance in caring for an HD dog.,

i agree mild HD dogs can live a normal life if the owner goes accordingly........and to be perfectly honest a good portion of GDS's have at least mild HD or hips that aren't fitting perfectly........


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## selzer

I was only asking about his being neutered because you said he was tall and I was curious if you had neutered him. 

I think my last statement could have been worded better: while I have been to the vet's, they have never checked mobility. If I am there because a dog is limping, they will have me walk around with it and feel their limbs and back to determine where the problem is, but I have never had them out of the blue move my dogs limbs around. I am wondering if this is something other people's vets do to healthy dogs as a matter of course.


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## robinhuerta

Our vet does it to puppies when we bring them in to have them checked as a litter.
Besides ears, eyes, throat, lungs & hearts....he also checks the puppy's mobility in the limbs.


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## AgileGSD

I tend to agree with many other here about guarantees: there is no way anyone can really "guarantee" that a puppy won't have X disease, unless it is a disease that DNA testing is available for (HD is not such a disease).

If you pup is a year old, hip can certainly be accurately evaluated. Ask for your vet to submit them to OFA, which only costs I think $25. They will give you a pre-lim rating (permanent ratings can't be done under 2 but their pre-lims are very accurate), which will allow more insight into the issue.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## wolfstraum

I hate the word "guarantee" - there are no guarantees when it comes to hips!!! A breeder offers a warrenty technically. 

No one INTENTIONALLY breeds bad hips. No one tries to. Some breed higher risk litters, some breed without knowledge of the family, some breed dogs without certifications - but no one wants to produce HD.

My contract does not allow a refund of full purchase price either. A local vet's opinion is not even considered - must be OFA to even consider a 'next step'. Buying a GSD pup is like any thing - there are certain risks that are inherent. When you buy a Dobie, you are buying a breed known to have a high number of dogs with cardial myopthy that die early from it. The breeder tries to plan a litter that does not produce affected dogs. But there is always that risk. If you buy a pup (of any breed!) you accept part of that risk as well.

I agree that from what you say, the breeder was unfeeling. I understand your anger at thinking of your pup put down. But, as you understand, mild HD will not compromise his value as a loving companion dog. 

Not to beat a dead horse - send the x-rays to OFA for evaluation and get the 'expert' opinion. 

Lee


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## debbiebrown

i agree with Lee get the x-rays read by OFA.............that is if the hip x-rays and or hips were positioned right in the first place..........or as someone else mentioned wait a bit until the hips, tendons, muscles have matured then have the x-ray done again to see.......
no one like to get news of HD or any other health issue for that matter..........but having dogs with mild-moderate HD myself i was lucky in that it never bothered them until they got older and arthritis set in and even at that they still were mobile enough to enjoy most things in life...........putting them on supplements, good diet, watching the high impact activities, etc does help preserve things.......


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## Liesje

Sue, my vet does not check mobility unless I'm there for that. I second, third, fourth, whatever...the suggestion to have a GOOD vet take correctly positioned x-rays. HD cannot be diagnosed by external exam and observation of a dog's movement. I'm no expert but was just reading a book on canine diseases and the part on HD says this quite definitively. It is ruled in/out based on x-rays, so until correctly positioned x-rays are done, there's really no point in speculating or slamming the breeder.


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## selzer

Yes, I agree that they should be redone by a vet that is known for good positioning and then sent into OFA. 

Supplementing with Ester-C the dog will not hurt. 

Exersize is good, but should be done with care. I like to let a puppy be a puppy and run and jump at will. But I do not provide the same type of shelters in their kennels where they can jump on and off the concrete at about 42 inches. I do not wear the pup out by cycling with them -- not until they are full grown. I do not force them to do jumps, etc. 

Once they are fully grown and you know what the hips are, you can make decisions on what types of exersize you want to persue. 

Do not overdue calcium. Calcium leaves deposits in the joints and they will cause arthritis to form. That is painful. This has been one of the problems of feeding larger breed dogs puppy foods. Many breeders suggest an all life stages food for the pup and never go on puppy food. 

The dog's hips are what they are. IF they are dysplastic, they are regardless to exersize or feeding. BUT you can make a difference in how much the dysplasia will affect your pup's quality of life. Chances are if it is mild, there will be no issues. But giving a little of this and restricting a little of that can improve or at least limit the rate of deterioration. 

Good luck.


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## GranvilleGSD

My veterinarian and all of the "good" vets that I have worked for check the range of motion on all 4 legs at their annual exams. Since in many cases dogs are stoic creatures, they may be experiencing discomfort that their owner does not notice and they've adapted to thier disability. This is not trying to drum up business (in most cases), but to find problems early so they can be treated.

Chloe was diagnosed at a young age, about 16 months old, in the same manner. I had her in for her vaccines and the vet couldn't extend her hip fully and there was a popping when she moved her elbow. I opted to take the x-rays and she was diagnosed with HD and ED. The x-rays were reviewed by a board cert. ortho vet and I was told to keep her lean, keep her exercised, and start supplements. I wanted to train her in flyball, and was told that as long as I do the mentioned things and the dog wanted to compete, then go ahead. She never showed any signs of discomfort, and to be honest, the first time she yelped and limped was last summer when she was 6 years old. She hurt herself at a tournament and was given some time off with rest and antiinflammatories and she's now back to playing her game.


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## cliffson1

I agree with Lee in that there is no guarantee with hips and breeders that advertise that are misleading. You can set up warranty, but no such thing as guarantee. 
As for the dog itself, this is just my opinion, if you are not a breeder and plan to use the dog in breeding, and if you are not a working/sport competitor, than a dog with mild HD can live just as fulfilling life, for just as long as any other dog. Enjoy the dog and a good long life to both you and the dog!!


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## holland

I believe that my vet is good but if I was going to do hip xrays I would go to an ortho vet and in fact my regular vet even said it was better to do that...if xrays have already been done the ortho vet might be willing to just look at the xrays...I don't know but getting xrays done gets expensive


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## GSD07

LaRen616 said:


> I just wanted my money back. [/quote]
> 
> I missed this part when reading your post. I would never expect my money back for a puppy that developed some kind of health problem. Support, help, yes (now I don't anymore, and if the breeder does provide it that it's a nice surprise that I appreciate greatly). Puppies are living creatures and I would not expect anyone to guarantee their health despite all contracts etc, breeders are not Walmarts.
> 
> Right now I have a pup with mild HD and I am so thrilled to have him, I am passing on replacement that was offered, I am thankful to the breeder for giving this pup to me, and I will go to that breeder again and pay the full price for another pup if the time comes because I want to support her. Why? Because the temperament of this pup is stellar, and that's what matters for me.


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## debbiebrown

Oksana,
you do have a great point there............i sure would prefer having a great stable temperment even if the dog did have mild HD.........vs a fairly healthy dog with a lousy temperment............believe me i hear ya, i REALLY do............

to the OP, enjoy your pup, try to get an educated reading on the x-rays, research alternatives and ways to preserve the hips, etc, i am sure as long as no other serious health issues arise your dog will live a normal life expectancy........just enjoy him and move forward.....


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## Jessiewessie99

Aren't breeders or real responsible ones supposed to provide health records on the puppies they sell?We didn't get Molly from a breeder, but we still got her health records.I am just wondering.And what are the physical signs of HD, and about what age do GSDs get HD?I am not sure Molly may get it, because she doesn't have those hips liek most GSDs.


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## mysablegsd

If they hadn't told you they would put him to sleep, would you have given him back and gotten a new puppy?


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## LaRen616

No, I would *NEVER* give him up. Not for anything. He's my best friend and my son


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## Liesje

What do you mean by "health records"?


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## JakodaCD OA

Jessie, when a breeder sells a puppy, there is absolutely no way to tell at that young age what the hip/elbow status would be until they are older. 

Not all gsd's end up with HD, but if they do have un normal hips, they are most likely born with it, but again, no one could possibly "know" until the puppy is older,

I'm not one that puts much stock in guarantees, puppies are such a cra* shoot it's not something any breeder can foretell. It's nice to get a guarantee, but I honestly don't expect money back, a refund, or really 'anything' back should my dog end up having bad hips/elbows. So far, knock on wood, I have not had a dog with HD or elbow problems,,other things sure, but not those..)

And I agree with Oksana, I just want good temperament, without it , you have nothing)


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## LaRen616

Well they shouldn't give that guarantee then. That's like false advertising. 

I love my dog to death, I formed a bond with him the night I brought him home. He has brought me nothing but happiness. I would never give him up. He has the best personality, sweet, affectionate, happy, friendly, careful with little dogs and kids and full of life.


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## onyx'girl

Have you had the films looked at by anyone other than your vet? Do you plan to?


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## LaRen616

No, I have not had anyone else look at his films yet. I plan on getting him Xrayed again maybe when he is a year and a half or when he is 2. I will have them looked at by a professional though like all of you suggested


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## onyx'girl

Do you have copies of them? Can you go to your vet and ask to take digitals from their lightbox? Then you could post them here for opinions...after all, you did pay to have the x-rays taken, the vet should be ok with you taking pics of them.


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## LaRen616

I do not have copies but I can get them


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## Jessiewessie99

Liesje said:


> What do you mean by "health records"?


When my parents got Molly, they got papers saying saying she was checked out by a vet when she was born and had the proper care when her mom had her and brothers & sisters, saying they were healthy and had no diseases and that neither of the parents did.


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## JKlatsky

Jessiewessie99 said:


> When my parents got Molly, they got papers saying saying she was checked out by a vet when she was born and had the proper care when her mom had her and brothers & sisters, saying they were healthy and had no diseases and that neither of the parents did.


That's a health certificate, and yes by law any dog needs to be sold with one (at least here in FLorida, I assume all states). The health cert only says that the puppy received the proper legal vaccinations, had a fecal, was wormed, and seems to be free of communicable diseases. They will do a physical where they check for heart murmers and obvious physical defects like undescended testicles or unbilical hernias. These things are usually noted on the health cert, to ensure that the buyer is aware of them. Although I've not seen health checks on the parents on a health cert before, so I don't know about that.

However HD can only be diagnosed with Xrays, and is usually not visible in very young puppies. The soonest you can check via Xray is through the PennHip procedure at 16 weeks, but the majority of vets will tell you that waiting until the dog is done growing gives you a more accurate Xray. That's why OFA certifys at 2, and the SV at 1yr. Many a dog with no mobility issues can still be dysplastic.


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## Jessiewessie99

JKlatsky said:


> That's a health certificate, and yes by law any dog needs to be sold with one (at least here in FLorida, I assume all states). The health cert only says that the puppy received the proper legal vaccinations, had a fecal, was wormed, and seems to be free of communicable diseases. They will do a physical where they check for heart murmers and obvious physical defects like undescended testicles or unbilical hernias. These things are usually noted on the health cert, to ensure that the buyer is aware of them. Although I've not seen health checks on the parents on a health cert before, so I don't know about that.
> 
> However HD can only be diagnosed with Xrays, and is usually not visible in very young puppies. The soonest you can check via Xray is through the PennHip procedure at 16 weeks, but the majority of vets will tell you that waiting until the dog is done growing gives you a more accurate Xray. That's why OFA certifys at 2, and the SV at 1yr. Many a dog with no mobility issues can still be dysplastic.



Yea, one of those.I didnt know the proper name for it.I just called them Health Records.


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## selzer

It is not required in Ohio. I give a pamplet provided by the vet that tells when they received their vaccinations, and wormings. I keep certificates from the OFA for the dam, and for the sire if I own the sire, if not, I can point them to OFFA.org. I show them to puppy buyers as required.


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## JakodaCD OA

LaRen, from what you posted that your guarantee stated, it said something like, THEY, the breeders, had the option of giving you money back and/or replacing the dog at THEIR discretion.

So your guarantee is just that,,at THEIR discretion. The decision on giving you money back is THEIR decision and from the looks of it, they decided they would rather replace with a puppy. 

Just a lesson learned that if you get a contract, to read between the lines)


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## LaRen616

Another reason why I hate my breeder!!!!!!!

My *Dog*: Sinister Black Lawler 


****** pedigree removed by Admin*****

My dog is inbred! Just found out! Now I know why his father is no longer with them!


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## Ares2010

It is hard to tell if a puppy will have HD, if the parent's don't it doesn't mean that the puppy won't and vs versa. I don't see how it can be guarenteed at all. Always check the parent's out first.


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## dogsnkiddos

Old Bitch was a health MESS and we found out EARLY (she had TPO at 6 months for severe hip dysplasia, has dicoid lupus diagnosed around 4 months, thyroid issues, incontinence issues, eating disorder,it went on and on- all diagnosed in her first year). As we got the health info I called her breeder. I did not expect anything FROM the breeder. I assumed that the health info I gave her would help her adjust her breeding program. I also hoped she would share the dx (at least the HD dx) with the littermates so they might get an early heads up (ours was discovered while dealing with something else). I never asked for or expected a refund or another puppy. That she did not offer either did not make me think she was. That she did not take the information as useful and that she did not make adjustments or let littermates know DID.

That said, Old Bitch has had a nice long life. She has a solid, loving personality. Her HD has slowed her in her old age, but diet, supplements, swimming, and a few hip surgeries through out her life and she has been good. HD does not always have to be a death sentence.


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## Andaka

LaRen616 said:


> Another reason why I hate my breeder!!!!!!!
> 
> My *Dog*: Sinister Black Lawler
> 
> ****** Peidgree removed by Admin*****
> 
> My dog is inbred! Just found out! Now I know why his father is no longer with them!


No you don't. You just assume that they no longer have him because he is not on their website anymore. He may have been retired or sold.


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## LaRen616

Well I doubt he is retired. He is only 3 years old. Maybe they sold him


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## AnnaRiley

Let me tell you I would get a second opinion. I was told my dog had HD at 18 months. He's now 7 and guess what. Had new x-rays done to what out what was going on because he seemed to have difficulty sitting down. Well, it was not HD - never was HD. I looked at the new x-rays and I, with totally no reading of an x-ray could tell there was no HD. Got old x-rays from old vet and sent to new vet . Simply someone did not know what they were looking at.


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## lrodptl

LaRen616 said:


> My GSD Sinister is a great, amazing, beautiful dog that I absolutely adore :wub: but he came from a BYB and his parents are no longer listed on there website and I find that weird . When I took Sin to the Vet he let out a little cry when she was moving his back left leg around to see if it was ok. She did Xrays and said that he has very, very mild HD but we wont know the real outcome or how it will effect him for another year (he is only a year old). I called his breeder to let her know and she told me to bring him back and they would have him PTS!!!  They told me they would not give me my money back but they would give me another puppy, I DONT WANT ANOTHER PUPPY, I LOVE MY BOY! When I asked her why she would put him to sleep not knowing if his HD would ever hurt him or effect his life she told me that no one wants a dog with HD. I told her I would never dream of taking back my boy only for him to be PTS and that I wasn't looking to give him back or get another puppy, I just wanted my money back. How could someone give back their dog after having it for almost a year????? I would never recommend her ever and I think she's running a really crappy business.


 My 10 year old GSD was diagnosed with mild HD at 8 months old. You'd never know it with the active,happy life he's had.


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## Brighthorizondogs

I would send the x-ray in for prelims to the OFA and see how they rate it. They would be more accurate. Then you can do it again in 1yr and see if they rate them any differently. I think the official rating is confirmed by 3 radiologist at the OFA if I remember right. Another thing to do is PennHip which compares his hips to the breed, every year the number can change because the average changes but you don't need to ever redo it. It will say his hip are better that ?% of the number of GSD tested. This is a slightly expensive test and is usually done by breeders only. The OFA is done by both breeders and sometimes to confirm the hips and elbows are ok for agility and working dogs. It only cost the amount for the x-rays and I think $35 or 45 for the hips only. If you do it again when he turns 2 I'd do those too and send them in too as it isn't much more to have both certified. Make sure when you send in the papers, you initial the part that gives them permission to publish abnormal results. I did that to mine and now when you look up my dog's parents, her record shows up showing there is a problem. I actually made sure they had the health certifications and still had trouble. So if the breeder decided to breed her siblings, people will see their pup's aunt has pretty bad elbow dysplasia. It shows up on her half siblings ofa records, parents, siblings, etc. So anyone getting a pup from the same lines will know about it but i really think it comes from her mom's side as I can't find many records on the OFA for her mom, just her mom and her mom's dad. Her dad's records go back generation and generations.


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## White German Shepherd

you have to do your homework before spending the money...


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## AbbyK9

> And what are the physical signs of HD, and about what age do GSDs get HD?I am not sure Molly may get it, because she doesn't have those hips liek most GSDs.


Many dogs with hip dysplasia never show any outward signs of their condition, although some move with an altered gait, especially when running - "bunny hopping" can be an outward signs.

In most cases, dysplasia is found and diagnosed when you do x-rays. A lot of breeders require their puppy buyers to do x-rays on their dogs and send them to OFFA for rating by the time the dog is two years old. 

In general, if you're worried about HD and want to make sure your dog has good hips, x-rays are recommended. It's best if they are done by a vet who knows what they are doing, as many general practice vets poorly position the hips, which affects the reading.

Leerburg has an excellent article on positioning for x-rays and why it's important,
here - The Importance of Good Positioning on Canine Hip X-rays

There is no "age German Shepherds get hip dysplasia." While any dog, regardless of breed, can get HD, it doesn't mean that all of them will or even that most of them will. Large breeds tend to have a higher incidence of HD when compared to small breeds, and some breeds are more prone to it. According to OFFA, the breed most likely to be affected are Bulldogs - 73% of all Bulldogs rated by OFFA have been found to be dysplastic. Incidentally, German Shepherds rank 40th on OFFA's HD statistics, with less than 20% of dogs rated by OFFA being dysplastic.


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## Jessiewessie99

White German Shepherd said:


> you have to do your homework before spending the money...


She did, but she knows better now.


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## selzer

And this is why, if you want to be a breeder, you have to like people a whole lot.

If people buy an office chair, and it has a mechanical failure, and they call the manufacturer. The manufacturer looks up the warranty information and then sends them a new part. They do not let you keep the old chair, and send you a new chair. they do not give you your money back. 

With any half-way decent breeding situation, the $600 dollar puppy purchase price does not cover the cost of vet care, training, and food for their dogs. And there are a ton of other expenses, training, trialing, licenses, registrations, supplies, and the tons of time that goes into all of it. 

So when the OP calls up and says, "My vet says my puppy has mild HD, I want my money back." Well, so sorry. If you bought a bicycle and after a year you bent the rim, are you going to want your money back? And keep the bicycle??? 

Breeders and painted with a pretty negative brush. If you charge ANYTHING, you are money grubbing and selling family members, and doing it for the money. 

If you do not have the breeding stock tested and trialed and not too old and not too young and not too many breedings, then you are irresponsible.

If you have only had this litter, then you are inexperienced.

If you have more than one litter per year, you are a puppy mill.

If you have less than 20 years experience, you don't know what you are doing and no one should trust you. 

If you have more than 20 years experience, than you are old school probably not doing everything that people expect you to.

If you have ever produced a dog with an issue, you are the scum of the earth.

If you find out that somebody wants to give up your dog, you better be prepared to buy back the dog -- not just take it back, and to pay what they want, including their costs for training, vet care, and heartguard. I mean REALLY! And to buy their other dog too, that has nothing to do with you. And to pay for its training, vet care and heartguard.

You must be available around the clock, taking care of puppies full-time, but you MUST NOT make a living by doing so. 

But I ask you, what do breeders get from their puppy buyers? What guarantees do they make to us? 

While HD is a polygenic condition, it can be seriously affected by the environment and feeding, and possibly early neuter/spay. We can make suggestions and even put it in the contract that the dog will not be spayed or neutered until after it reaches 2 years, but people will do it anyway. 

People will let the puppy jump off of decks because it is cute and then complain if the dog develops a limp. 

They will call and tell us proudly that the 4 or 5 month old puppy is now running three miles with them every morning. 

They will let us know how well he is doing on Purina, or Iams, or Science Diet. 

They will totally ignore what we say about adult food and put the dog on puppy food and keep it on puppy food. 

They will let the puppy get run over by a car, or electrocuted, or poisoned.

They will forget to bring the health record to their vet and allow their vet to re-vaccinate the puppy month after month. 

They will take a brand new puppy, en route to home for the first time, and stop at a pet store and let the puppy walk around on the floor and sniff other dogs.

They will let the puppy be overweight, looking like a coffee table. 

There are some really awesome people out there purchasing puppies from us, who call and give us updates, not just call to tell us about what horrible thing happened to the dog, that actually read through the paperwork we prepared for them, and actually hear our advice and make a conscious decision to follow it or not. People who train and socialize their dogs. They do exist, but they are not necessarily the norm.

Maybe the breeders SHOULD have told them up front what the hip guarantee said and why. But to tell the truth, I am trying to get the people through the first few days without overwhelming them. Telling them NOT to take them to the pet store, what to feed, NOT to let the vet re-vaccinate the dog too soon, and on and on. 

I mention my hip guarantee, but I really doubt that the people actually HEAR what I say about it.


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## Crookedcreekranch

You know I really like how you tell it like it is Selzer.


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## holland

Yes ditto


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## Gsdldy

Loved it selzer, your post is sooo very true. I have occasionally had litters myself. I also have a contract that covers all of those things. If someone has a puppy that they cant keep due to any situation I WILL take it back, and depending on the problems, issues, or reason they didnt want or couldn't keep that puppy at my discression I MAY refund money, do a partial refund, exchange a puppy for another if it is a temperment or personality issue where the puppy just didnt fit their lifestyle, etc... I take it on a case by case issue. 

I have only had 1 puppy returned and that was because the family lost their job and source of income and couldn't afford to keep the puppy. I did give them a refund, but mostly because they had taken great care of this pup and I knew this wasn't a situation that they could have forseen. It hasn't happened to me so far but IF I had someone call me with a 1 year old dog and they stated their vet said it had HD I would ask them to have MY vet or one i approved of X-ray it. If it was a situation where at 2 years the dog was shown to have crippleing HD then I would offer 1 of 2 choices 1. Return the puppy and I will give a full refund or a replacement pup. or 2. offer a partial refund if they wanted to keep the dog. 

While I do feel sorry for the OP for going through this dont panic yet. Let him grow and mature and any issues he has as a young dog may resolve. I would also get a second xray from an orthopedic vet that knows the proper positioning and how to correctly read the x-rays.
Sorry I rambled on so much, Good luck to the OP and let us know when you have new developments, I'm interested to see how his hips change with maturity.


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## selzer

I currently do not have in my contract that I would refund money. But, I can understand why I might want to. If someone returned a badly neglected pup, saying that it had HD, and they wanted a replacement puppy, I would rather give them their money back and be done with them, then to constantly tell them that there is nothing available that would suit them at present. I would not put another pup in that environment. I would offer the money back instead. 

As for saying that they would euthanize the pup, and actually euthanizing the pup for mild dysplasia, I just don't know. I know that one would not want to breed the dog, so it would not be doing anyone any good at the breeders and it would be better for the dog to be with a family. But then even being very up front with a problem and giving the dog away, the new owners could be a serious nuisance about the dog. Could I put one of mine down for that, no. For crippling HD, I think that it would really depend.


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## Gsdldy

I agree, I "think" if someone brought a dog back to me due to mild HD most likely I would have it spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home. If it was crippleing that is another situation, I think I most likely would have it euthed as I have seen dogs suffer with it and it is kinder to let the dog go and be pain free. BUT I do have all of my puppy buyers OFA the dogs by 2 - 2 1/2 years that way if a certain breeding is produeing severe HD I can be aware of it and know not to repeat that breeding, same with temperment.


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## G-burg

For the puppy buyer, it all comes down to picking the right breeder and what they stand for! and why they are really breeding dogs..

Unfortunately you learn that along the way.. We've all made mistakes in the beginning, but hopefully you learn from those mistakes.. I know I did when I got my very first shepherd way back when.. and this dog had some serious health issues..


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## BlackPuppy

It could go the other way, also. 

I had x-rays taked for Doerak to send to OFA. The vet showed them to me and said they looked fine, but the OFA results came back Moderate Dysplasia. She probably thought they were fine because, as my ortho specialist said, "they (hips) are probably better than 75% of the GSDs walking around today".

Doerak lived with some painful days and some not so. As he got older the pain was worse. I always had some meds on hand for his worse days, but the pain never stopped him.


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## holland

I don't look at it as making a mistake in the begining I made a choice. My first GSD lived 12 healthy years and after he died I found a pic of him gently taking a dog biscuit from my friends 3 year old. He might not have made it at schutzhund but then neither did I and to me that pic said everything.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> And this is why, if you want to be a breeder, you have to like people a whole lot.
> 
> If people buy an office chair, and it has a mechanical failure, and they call the manufacturer. The manufacturer looks up the warranty information and then sends them a new part. They do not let you keep the old chair, and send you a new chair. they do not give you your money back.
> 
> With any half-way decent breeding situation, the $600 dollar puppy purchase price does not cover the cost of vet care, training, and food for their dogs. And there are a ton of other expenses, training, trialing, licenses, registrations, supplies, and the tons of time that goes into all of it.
> 
> So when the OP calls up and says, "My vet says my puppy has mild HD, I want my money back." Well, so sorry. If you bought a bicycle and after a year you bent the rim, are you going to want your money back? And keep the bicycle???
> 
> Breeders and painted with a pretty negative brush. If you charge ANYTHING, you are money grubbing and selling family members, and doing it for the money.
> 
> If you do not have the breeding stock tested and trialed and not too old and not too young and not too many breedings, then you are irresponsible.
> 
> If you have only had this litter, then you are inexperienced.
> 
> If you have more than one litter per year, you are a puppy mill.
> 
> If you have less than 20 years experience, you don't know what you are doing and no one should trust you.
> 
> If you have more than 20 years experience, than you are old school probably not doing everything that people expect you to.
> 
> If you have ever produced a dog with an issue, you are the scum of the earth.
> 
> If you find out that somebody wants to give up your dog, you better be prepared to buy back the dog -- not just take it back, and to pay what they want, including their costs for training, vet care, and heartguard. I mean REALLY! And to buy their other dog too, that has nothing to do with you. And to pay for its training, vet care and heartguard.
> 
> You must be available around the clock, taking care of puppies full-time, but you MUST NOT make a living by doing so.
> 
> But I ask you, what do breeders get from their puppy buyers? What guarantees do they make to us?
> 
> While HD is a polygenic condition, it can be seriously affected by the environment and feeding, and possibly early neuter/spay. We can make suggestions and even put it in the contract that the dog will not be spayed or neutered until after it reaches 2 years, but people will do it anyway.
> 
> People will let the puppy jump off of decks because it is cute and then complain if the dog develops a limp.
> 
> They will call and tell us proudly that the 4 or 5 month old puppy is now running three miles with them every morning.
> 
> They will let us know how well he is doing on Purina, or Iams, or Science Diet.
> 
> They will totally ignore what we say about adult food and put the dog on puppy food and keep it on puppy food.
> 
> They will let the puppy get run over by a car, or electrocuted, or poisoned.
> 
> They will forget to bring the health record to their vet and allow their vet to re-vaccinate the puppy month after month.
> 
> They will take a brand new puppy, en route to home for the first time, and stop at a pet store and let the puppy walk around on the floor and sniff other dogs.
> 
> They will let the puppy be overweight, looking like a coffee table.
> 
> There are some really awesome people out there purchasing puppies from us, who call and give us updates, not just call to tell us about what horrible thing happened to the dog, that actually read through the paperwork we prepared for them, and actually hear our advice and make a conscious decision to follow it or not. People who train and socialize their dogs. They do exist, but they are not necessarily the norm.
> 
> Maybe the breeders SHOULD have told them up front what the hip guarantee said and why. But to tell the truth, I am trying to get the people through the first few days without overwhelming them. Telling them NOT to take them to the pet store, what to feed, NOT to let the vet re-vaccinate the dog too soon, and on and on.
> 
> I mention my hip guarantee, but I really doubt that the people actually HEAR what I say about it.


Selzer, don't hold back why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Seriously, what you say has a lot of truth in it and gives a very good view of the situation from the breeder's position.


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## Rusty_212

My wife and I learned the hard way after our first 2 that we purchased from basically a byb. They were both great dogs as all GSD are but they were from the same litter and the male lost the use of his rear legs after only 8 1/2 yrs. and his sister after 12 1/2 yrs. Both had HD and I actually helped the male around for 6 months with a towel under his belly until we and he had enough. He started waking up at nite and I felt he was in pain but I didn't know for sure. Still one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life, it sux.
So when we got our third dog, we purchased from one of the top breeders in the Midwest and he turned out to have the best hips our vet ever saw on a GSD. And although he passed when he was only 10.8 yrs. he still got around very well.

Of the 4 we have owned so far, I wouldn't trade anything for the time we've had with them.


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