# Should I try to get the CGC?



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

My stepdad pointed this out the other day. The CGC helps to get insurance for homes and can get you into a restrictive apartment.

Rocky is completely social outside, but has to be put in a kennel when strangers come over.

Would this be lying if he passed the CGC with flying colors and I use that to get homeowner's ins. when he is fearful aggressive/territorial in home? (takes about 7 visits with him staying in kennel until he is comfy with "strngers")


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Only asking because doesn't homeowner's ins. only apply to "at home" claims. And though he might be perfect in public, if a stranger somehow got to him in the house or future backyard, he would definitely scare them away at minimum


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In my area I've never heard of the CGC getting anyone into a restrictive apartment. Its an insurance policy issue so most of the actual managers have no say in the breeds they allow in. I haven't looked into the homeowners insurance policy, but you can get those no matter what dog you have, it will just increase your premium, and I don't know how much (if any) the CGC will bring that down. A CGC can help convince a private owner that you have a good dog and should be able to live in their place, but that's if they even know what it is and are willing to work with you. 

I wouldn't hang my hat on the CGC to get you into an apartment complex that won't allow GSDs or lower your homeowners insurance by a significant amount.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I would go for it. Passing the CGC isn't lying as long as the evaluator is truthful about their observations.

I don't know anything about apartments or renting.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well altho it's a good thing to have a CGC on your dog, it won't necessarily get you homeowners insurance nor get you into a restrictive place to live.

Homeowners Insurance don't give a rats patooty about a dog, if it's on their "do not insure list" nothing will change that. If a place says "no dogs allowed" or any other such restriction when it comes to dogs, they are usually not going to change their policy.


You have to know what a policy covers when it comes to dogs. 

Get a CGC it certainly can't hurt, but it won't do any good if an insurance co or housing does not allow german shepherds.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks guys! I went to a housing fair this weekend and out of 50 apartments, 5 of them knew what a CGC was and were willing to allow pits/gsds/rotties in ONLY if they had it. 3 of the apartments let those dog types in WITH a prior meeting with the dog and a "doggy resume" with all the dogs training and trainers (with contact numbers and organizations addresses) listed. I was very surprised how educated many of the apartments were.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. If I have my dog out and about with me and it decides to bite someone. They can sue me. My home-owner's insurance protects the bank from my being sued, I think. That is why, when you have a mortgage, they require it. 

Get your CGC. I have never had to present mine to insurance companies or anyone else, but it is a good goal, and might make a difference to a potential landlord. When you go to rent a place, you do not have to tell them about every behavioral issue your dog might have. You tell them that he has his CGC which would be true. And you can back it up with your certificate. There is no lying going on. 

At the same time, knowing your dog is territorially aggressive, you have to ensure that he never has any opportunity to exercise his jaws on anyone. That includes the landlord if they have to deal with something while you are out. So you might have to crate your dog whenever you leave. And after you are installed, I would let them know that your dog will act aggressively if they come in while he is crated. That is not that out of the ordinary. The dog cannot fun, he has to fight if there is a threat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog might be fine if you go and meet with them as he will not be in his home. I would go ahead and get the certificate. It does indicate that you trained your dog to a goal.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I just got into an apartment that doesn't allow aggressive breeds but was willing to do a meet and greet and if she had taken any OB classes. We didn't pass the CGC when she was 9 months because she got too excited when meeting a dog and didn't pass the leaving us for 3 minutes. They didn't know what a CGC was all they were interested in was meeting her which she passed and he just taking 1 OB class. And it didn't matter where it came from. And when we did the meet and greet he met her, petted her and then was like okay great she is welcome here.. All in 5 minutes. 
I'm sure different places will be more/ less extensive in the meet and greet. Some wanted vet/ trainer recommendations, some were absolutely no gsds no matter how mch trainig was done and some let them in and didn't care to meet them. This was in Gainesville, Fl. I'm sure every place is different


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I put a sign in neon yellow on his kennel "Do not pet or open door. Will bite, HARD" right above where you open it. My bedroom door has a sign that says "Warning-Uncrated German Shepherd. Will bite. If maintenance, call xxx-xxx-xxxx." and my front door says "My german shepherd can make it to the door in .5 seconds. Can you?" 

My stepdad told me to take pictures of all the signs just in case some dummy from the apartment ever comes in and ignores all the signs and gets bit when I'm not home. (he is crated when I go to class, uncrated in my room when I go to the gym)

My roommate's parents love all the signs. They are ugly but do their job


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

All the maintenance guys are cool though. Rocky plays with them outside and gets excited when he sees their golf carts. But (as they learned) them coming in the house is a different story. He went nuts barking and growling when they tried to go in my room to mess with the hot water heater (my roomie called it in) and she had to put him in the crate so they could get in the door.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> No. If I have my dog out and about with me and it decides to bite someone. They can sue me. My home-owner's insurance protects the bank from my being sued, I think. That is why, when you have a mortgage, they require it.


Homeowner's insurance has two components: the catastrophic coverage, which protects the bank's insurable interest in the property in the case of catastrophe like fire, tornado, etc; and the liability coverage, which protects the homeowner from being sued in the case that someone is injured on the property. The bank requires you to have homeowner's because they want "their" property protected from damage. But if your dog bites me in your home, I don't have a legitimate lawsuit against the mortgage-holding bank. The liability portion of your homeowner's insurance protects *you.* I always select a much larger liability policy than what the insurance company initially offers. 

I used to work in insurance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL! My front door has a giant paw print that says, "You may get in, but you won't get out."


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

oooo when I get a house I am copying your sign!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd get it if you think you can. It does hold some value to some landlords, even though in this case I think it is a little mis-conceiving. Still a good certificate to have, and use. I would certainly use it to my advantage, however, make sure anyone you mention it to understands the difference between Canine Good Citizen and Service Dog. A lot of landlords I've talked to DON'T and if Rocky bites someone when they're under the assumption he's a service dog, you could be in for a lot of trouble.

That said, is there a reason why you leave your aggressive dog loose in a house with people coming and going at all while you're not there? Even if he's in your room, it takes one idiot not paying attention (drunk, on drugs, just stupid...) and opening up the wrong door to get bit. Why don't you crate him 100% of the time when you can't supervise? This sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Thanks guys! I went to a housing fair this weekend and out of 50 apartments, 5 of them knew what a CGC was and were willing to allow pits/gsds/rotties in ONLY if they had it. 3 of the apartments let those dog types in WITH a prior meeting with the dog and a "doggy resume" with all the dogs training and trainers (with contact numbers and organizations addresses) listed. I was very surprised how educated many of the apartments were.


In this case you kind of answered you own question. But you should know that the ones that don't allow the dogs without any such rules won't bend them for your dog. So don't expect to live at an apartment that hasn't stated that they like to see the CGC. The apartments in my area either allow or don't allow breeds and it really doesn't matter how titled the dog is, this is usually an insurance issue and unless the AKC is willing to insure each and every dog that passes the CGC as bulletproof, then they won't care and won't allow dogs due to this title.

I've also read that signs like that actually admit liability and knowledge that you have a dangerous pet in the home, so if it does bite someone that was trying to do work, they can still sue you and might have an easier trial to win because you're admitting you knew your dogs problems and he has been known to react in that way.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I've also read that signs like that actually admit liability and knowledge that you have a dangerous pet in the home, so if it does bite someone that was trying to do work, they can still sue you and might have an easier trial to win because you're admitting you knew your dogs problems and he has been known to react in that way.


These signs completely depend on the area. In some it admits liability so that they were fairly warned of the danger. In others it shows that you knew your dog was aggressive and did nothing about it and puts you in the hole. Personally, if I had an aggressive dog, I would be putting up signs regardless, to prevent anything from happening as much as possible. I wouldn't be living anywhere that anyone but myself had to come or go with an aggressive dog though either.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

She said the dog is territorial. How many of your GSD's aren't?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> These signs completely depend on the area. In some it admits liability so that they were fairly warned of the danger. In others it shows that you knew your dog was aggressive and did nothing about it and puts you in the hole. Personally, if I had an aggressive dog, I would be putting up signs regardless, to prevent anything from happening as much as possible. I wouldn't be living anywhere that anyone but myself had to come or go with an aggressive dog though either.


I think the issue with having a sign like that in an apartment is that if you call maintenance and they enter your apartment they should expect to work in a safe environment. You calling them, and leaving your territorial dog out is extremely negligent on your part and no sign is going to protect you from that court case...now in the case of trespassing...if you get bit, you shouldn't be able to sue the owner, and yet somehow you can, that's the justice system for you.

And my GSD is territorial, but not to that extent. If I'm home and someone comes in, he can quickly understand that it is a friend/foe (although we've never had a foe come in), and it doesn't take 7 meetings through a crate for him to accept someone. It usually takes seconds as long as I'm not freaking out for some reason. I have wanted to test him with an unknown person walking into the apartment, just to see his reaction, just can't find a volunteer lol.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I think the issue with having a sign like that in an apartment is that if you call maintenance and they enter your apartment they should expect to work in a safe environment. You calling them, and leaving your territorial dog out is extremely negligent on your part and no sign is going to protect you from that court case...now in the case of trespassing...if you get bit, you shouldn't be able to sue the owner, and yet somehow you can, that's the justice system for you.
> 
> And my GSD is territorial, but not to that extent. If I'm home and someone comes in, he can quickly understand that it is a friend/foe (although we've never had a foe come in), and it doesn't take 7 meetings through a crate for him to accept someone. It usually takes seconds as long as I'm not freaking out for some reason. I have wanted to test him with an unknown person walking into the apartment, just to see his reaction, just can't find a volunteer lol.


Oh I completely agree, I already asked her why he was ever left loose. 

Just noting the laws that I've read about the signs. I'm sure this is a big difference when you don't own your own home also... the apartment complex has every right to your unit and not being bit in it. 

My GSD is not territorial at all in our house, but does bark at anyone coming home, just so they know he's there.  We have 3 roommates who come over with random friends, family, etc. frequently and Frag is never crated unless we know a lot will be going on just to keep him inside and out of everyone's hair. He's never had an issue with someone randomly walking in, and I've also let friends stop by that he wasn't familiar with or didn't know at all when none of us were home, and he got along fine with them. I think if we were home and were nervous/acting strange about someone he would pick up on it and may act a little different, but I don't forsee him doing much good if we were in trouble. Luckily we have a gun in just about every room of the house.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> ...And my GSD is territorial, but not to that extent. If I'm home and someone comes in, he can quickly understand that it is a friend/foe (although we've never had a foe come in), and it doesn't take 7 meetings through a crate for him to accept someone. It usually takes seconds as long as I'm not freaking out for some reason. *I have wanted to test him with an unknown person walking into the apartment, just to see his reaction, just can't find a volunteer lol*.


Granted. The other part of the issue is that the maintenance guy or whoever is coming in without her there. If it was at all within my power, I'd never allow anyone to enter without me present. 

I'd like to test this, too, but same here, no volunteers. Geesh. No sense of adventure. :shocked:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> She said the dog is territorial. How many of your GSD's aren't?


She said her dog is territorial and AGGRESSIVE. There is a difference in most cases. Mine isn't territorial at all, but has been aggressive out of our home in the past. In our home he isn't aggressive nor territorial.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Would this be lying if he passed the CGC with flying colors and I use that to get homeowner's ins. when he is fearful aggressive/territorial *in home?* (takes about 7 visits with him staying in kennel until he is comfy with "strngers")





DJEtzel said:


> *She said her dog is territorial and AGGRESSIVE*. There is a difference in most cases. Mine isn't territorial at all, but has been aggressive out of our home in the past. In our home he isn't aggressive nor territorial.


No, she actually didn't. She said he was aggressive IN HOME. She did specifically say it is not an issue outside of the home with the maintenance guys. 

If he is showing the aggression/territorialism in home only, and not towards strangers outside of the home, it shouldn't be a hindrance in getting the CGC. My two cents, anyway.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> No, she actually didn't. She said he was aggressive IN HOME. She did specifically say it is not an issue outside of the home with the maintenance guys.
> 
> If he is showing the aggression/territorialism in home only, and not towards strangers outside of the home, it shouldn't be a hindrance in getting the CGC. My two cents, anyway.


Uh huh... so he's aggressive.. I'm not sure what you're arguing? You're trying to ask how many of our dogs our territorial.. but the issue here isn't that her dog is territorial, it's that her dog is aggressive and won't think twice about biting anyone that comes into her house. I never said it'd hinder her from getting the CGC. But we brought up that she should be taking more precautions in her home even though she has a CGC beacuse she's renting and landlords/maintenance have the right to come into her home.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

You stated that your dog is " fearful aggressive/territorial ".
What makes you think he will pass the CGC?
If he does, then you are all set ... you can take your " fearful aggressive/territorial" dog into a restricted apartment.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Uh huh... so he's aggressive.. I'm not sure what you're arguing? You're trying to ask how many of our dogs our territorial.. but the issue here isn't that her dog is territorial, it's that her dog is aggressive and won't think twice about biting anyone that comes into her house. I never said it'd hinder her from getting the CGC. But we brought up that she should be taking more precautions in her home even though she has a CGC beacuse she's renting and landlords/maintenance have the right to come into her home.


Uh huh. Yes, it is established he is aggressive in the home. We don't really know if this is true outside of the home. If it is *not* true outside of the home, the CGC wouldn't be a problem -- at least in that category of the test.

I'm not "trying" to ask anything, nor am I arguing. That's more your forte.

Agreed, more work in the home is warranted. I need to do this same work, as well, as my dog is showing increasing territorialism. As soon as we're off property, all is fine. Just the opposite of how you explain your own dog. Bottom line, I understand to a point, where she is coming from. All is sunshine and roses away from home. 



PaddyD said:


> You stated that your dog is " fearful aggressive/territorial ".
> What makes you think he will pass the CGC?
> If he does, then you are all set ... you can take your " fearful aggressive/territorial" dog into a restricted apartment.


Ugh. Honestly, that's a lot of judgment about a dog that we don't have that much info about -- from this thread.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> Uh huh. Yes, it is established he is aggressive in the home. We don't really know if this is true outside of the home. If it is *not* true outside of the home, the CGC wouldn't be a problem -- at least in that category of the test.
> 
> I'm not "trying" to ask anything, nor am I arguing. That's more your forte.


I never said he couldn't get his CGC. I said it'd still be a misconception because the dog will bite any landlord or maintenance man coming into her house. So you are arguing a moot point. 



> Ugh. Honestly, that's a lot of judgment about a dog that we don't have that much info about -- from this thread.


I don't see it as that much of a judgement...


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Just to clarify--

When I say he is fearful aggressive, this is because he barks and growls at strangers and will not let new people pet him when they walk inside. It takes a minimum of 5 visits before he lets new people pet him. He has never bit or even nipped anyone. The reason I think he has the potential to be aggressive is because my friend that had just gotten home from the marines walked in the apartment and Rocky growled and walked up and kind of "head-butted" him with his snout, which was completely closed no teeth showing, twice. 5 minutes later they were playing together, but I won't risk him growling and barking at strangers because that could turn into a bite. I have complete control over him--last time a stranger came in unannounced Rocky went towards them growling and I said "kennel" and he walked by them and went straight in his kennel and didn't come out before I got up and went in the room and shut it. *I guess I am just being proactive to the fact that a growling dog that is scared can bite*.


In response to DJ>>>
This is my apartment. People are not coming or going. The only person in the apartment when I am not in my room is my roommate. She is in nursing school and does not know a single person in the city aside from my friends. (now our joint friends) I do not lock my door because she frequently lets Rocky out to play with the kitten in the living room when I am gone.

Maintenance has my personal cell number and since the first incident they call me to ask when I will be home if they need to come in my room. (We are close w/ maintenance now after all the socializing they have done with Rocky)

My "landlord", I guess you would say this is the General Manager? In my lease they are not allowed to enter my apartment without 24 hour notice.

If a stranger breaks into my apartment somehow, good luck to them.

My dog will not be locked in a crate all day just because he doesn't like strangers in the house. If I invite a new person over, he goes straight to kennel and is not allowed out. I don't see a reason to lock him up when I' gone,when maintenance won't enter my room without me here and my landlord isn't allowed to enter without notice.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> But we brought up that she should be taking more precautions in her home even though she has a CGC beacuse she's renting and landlords/maintenance have the right to come into her home.


Don't know what it's like in OP's area, but here in CA, the landlord/maintenance guys do NOT have the right to waltz into your home whenever they feel like it. They have to give prior notice and have permission to enter the premises you are renting. If they enter without the renter's knowledge or consent, they can get into big trouble--but on the other hand, if they get bitten, the dog owner's going to get in trouble too.

If the dog can get his CGC, it certainly can't hurt, but I don't think it would absolve the owner of any liability. I think most people understand that a GSD is going to be protective of its territory, CGC or no, so it behooves them not to enter your rental without prior notice or permission.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DJ "I wouldn't be living anywhere that anyone but myself had to come or go with an aggressive dog though either."


Fear aggression and aggression are two VERY different things. Especially if the fearful dog has not bitten anyone, only growled and barked and kept its distance.

If the dog is ONLY fearful towards strangers and can be slowly introduced to them over time and they become part of his circle, why would you live on your own? My roommate, her boyfriend, her parents, my parents, my siblings, and about 15 close friends are all on Rocky's "Beloved List". 

All of those people listed met me outside. I walked up to them, saying "Hey! How are you" then handed them Rocky's leash and we walked around the apartment (his potty path) and then they walked in with me. No barking, growling, staring, nothing. He completely ignored them.

Yes, I must repeat this the first 6 times they come over but after that he remembers them and they can walk in the door.

The only thing time he is fearful/territorial is when complete strangers come in the door without him meeting them before.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Don't know what it's like in OP's area, but here in CA, the landlord/maintenance guys do NOT have the right to waltz into your home whenever they feel like it. They have to give prior notice and have permission to enter the premises you are renting. If they enter without the renter's knowledge or consent, they can get into big trouble--but on the other hand, if they get bitten, the dog owner's going to get in trouble too.


If there is any fire or other disaster to the complex, from what I've read in just about every state, maintenance (and emergency personel for that matter) can enter any apartment for any reason. (to turn off gas, extinguish fires, etc.) I would just be worried about the liability of having an aggressive dog loose in an apartment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chelle, in post #21, could you tell me where you got a quote of mine like that? I do not even own a dog -- male. So I have no idea how I could have said all that, could you direct me to where it is. I do not own a territorial male, and Rush and Dubya, my recent males, neither were territorial and would let contractors go into their kennels.

ETA: I really do not want to test whether or not any of my dogs will attack when I am not present.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> I think the issue with having a sign like that in an apartment is that if you call maintenance and they enter your apartment they should expect to work in a safe environment. You calling them, and leaving your territorial dog out is extremely negligent on your part and no sign is going to protect you from that court case...now in the case of trespassing...if you get bit, you shouldn't be able to sue the owner, and yet somehow you can, that's the justice system for you.
> 
> *And my GSD is territorial, but not to that extent. If I'm home and someone comes in, he can quickly understand that it is a friend/foe (although we've never had a foe come in), and it doesn't take 7 meetings through a crate for him to accept someone. It usually takes seconds as long as I'm not freaking out for some reason. I have wanted to test him with an unknown person walking into the apartment, just to see his reaction, just can't find a volunteer lol*.



Ok, I was given credit for this quote somehow and it isn't mine.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If there is any fire or other disaster to the complex, from what I've read in just about every state, maintenance (and emergency personel for that matter) can enter any apartment for any reason. (to turn off gas, extinguish fires, etc.) I would just be worried about the liability of having an aggressive dog loose in an apartment.


Ok...did you not read my post? The dog is not running around the apartment. It is in my bedroom. There are SIGNS on my front door, bedroom door, and the kennel that there is a German Shepherd inside that can possibly bite. That gives everyone a heads up.

Also, I said my dog is fearful and potentially FEAR-aggressive because of fear and guarding its territory. NOT just aggressive. Those are two VERY different things. 

As you said, you have never had a complete stranger bust in your home when you aren't there. So shouldn't YOU and every single other person in the world with untested dogs crate them while gone *just incase* their house catches on fire?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> Chelle, in post #21, could you tell me where you got a quote of mine like that? I do not even own a dog -- male. So I have no idea how I could have said all that, could you direct me to where it is. I do not own a territorial male, and Rush and Dubya, my recent males, neither were territorial and would let contractors go into their kennels.
> 
> ETA: I really do not want to test whether or not any of my dogs will attack when I am not present.


Selzer, I have absolutely no idea why that happened. It was Djetzel's quote. Why it quoted you, I am totally clueless. All I did was click the "quote" button! Sorry!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> Selzer, I have absolutely no idea why that happened. It was Djetzel's quote. Why it quoted you, I am totally clueless. All I did was click the "quote" button! Sorry!


Nope, not mine! Try again?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, not sure either. LOL.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think Martemchik


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

There's a ghost in the machine somewhere. aranoid:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Ok...did you not read my post? The dog is not running around the apartment. It is in my bedroom. There are SIGNS on my front door, bedroom door, and the kennel that there is a German Shepherd inside that can possibly bite. That gives everyone a heads up.
> 
> Also, I said my dog is fearful and potentially FEAR-aggressive because of fear and guarding its territory. NOT just aggressive. Those are two VERY different things.
> 
> As you said, you have never had a complete stranger bust in your home when you aren't there. So shouldn't YOU and every single other person in the world with untested dogs crate them while gone *just incase* their house catches on fire?


I understand that it is a fear based thing, but I would still be worried about leaving an aggressive (for whatever reason!) dog loose (anywhere!) in a house while I was gone, where people COULD have to enter for unknown reasons. Just my opinion. 

And that's NOT what I said... if you go back and read my post on the stranger matter, I stated that I've had numerous friends that Frag didn't know walk into my house to wait for me, my roommates have had strange family members walk in, etc. etc. and Frag doesn't mind one bit. I have no reason to crate him because of this, and I feel it'd be a fair risk for anyone else to take if there dog hasn't shown aggressive tendencies in their house before. That's just a little overkill. But a dog that you KNOW is territorial in your house? I wouldn't risk that personally. 

However, I will admit that I was under the assumption by your vague post and quotes of signs that you knew Rocky WOULD bite and that's why I offered my two cents on the matter. If I had known he was just nasty I probably wouldn't have bothered, although I still feel it's an unsafe risk to take. It's your risk and your dog though, by all means.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Nope, not mine! Try again?


You're right, I'm sorry!



selzer said:


> I think Martemchik


Yes it was.

I have no idea how that got all goofed up. I am sorry to have misquoted selzer and DJEtzel. That was strange.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> If there is any fire or other disaster to the complex, from what I've read in just about every state, maintenance (and emergency personel for that matter) can enter any apartment for any reason. (to turn off gas, extinguish fires, etc.) I would just be worried about the liability of having an aggressive dog loose in an apartment.


Oh, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of emergency situations.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> So shouldn't YOU and every single other person in the world with untested dogs crate them while gone *just incase* their house catches on fire?


I do, but only because after my shop burned down I am ridiculously paranoid about fire.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> I do, but only because after my shop burned down I am ridiculously paranoid about fire.


I know this is going way off course here, but in case of fire, isn't a crate the _last_ place you want a dog?


I shudder just thinking about this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I know this is going way off course here, but in case of fire, isn't a crate the _last_ place you want a dog?


I guess it doesn't matter whether they're in a crate or not, I guess if I was really that paranoid I'd want to keep them outdoors. But then I get paranoid about something happening to them outdoors.  I guess I'm just generally paranoid.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> However, I will admit that I was under the assumption by your vague post and quotes of signs that you knew Rocky WOULD bite and that's why I offered my two cents on the matter. *If I had known he was just nasty I probably wouldn't have bothered,* although I still feel it's an unsafe risk to take. It's your risk and your dog though, by all means.


 

My dog is *nasty* because he doesn't like strangers in the house? What a rude and condescending statement. My post was not vague--My post had NOTHING to do with crating my dog away from strangers. *****Comment removed by Admin*** 

How pitiful that you stoop to attack my baby Rocky.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

You truly disgust me.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> My dog is *nasty* because he doesn't like strangers in the house? What a rude and condescending statement. My post was not vague--My post had NOTHING to do with crating my dog away from strangers. You brought that up because you will find any reason to attack me after I made you look like an ignorant fool on a pitbull thread almost a month ago. Grow UP.
> 
> How pitiful that you stoop to attack my baby Rocky.


Your poor "baby" is a liability. I didn't attack him or you. I merely stated that he was "nasty" towards people because he is, he just doesn't bite yet. Growling, nipping, lunging, head butting, etc. are all "nasty" behaviors from a dog, I was just using the word as a description. 

** Comment removed by Admin. Personal and has nothing to do with this discussion****


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

*** comments removed by Admin****


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I wouldn't call that fear aggression, maybe a mix of fearful and territorial reactions. In most occasions when we actually label a dog fear aggressive it's because the dog will bite and will attempt to bite if it means the uncomfortable stimulus is going to leave. 

My boy will bark and growl at new people coming in, he is fearful of strangers although has improved greatly as we can actively attend events without a problem. When new folks come in I put him on leash and do some obedience first then do LAT, and reward positive interactions. He also likes to do tricks for the guests (not at my suggestion lol). But if someone were to be an idiot and ignore the signs and just go straight for him and continue to push it, they'd likely get nipped, but he's always been one to avoid those situations.

He does have his CGC.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

is the bickering and name calling really necessary??

There are ALOT of dog who aren't going to let a stranger in their house I doubt this dog is the only one. 

DJ it must be hard knowing you are "right" ALL the time. Sheesh take a chill pill.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a public warning to the OP and DJEtzel to knock off the personal attacks and stay on topic.

ADMIN Lisa


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Your poor "baby" is a liability. I didn't attack him or you. I merely stated that he was "nasty" towards people because he is, he just doesn't bite yet. Growling, nipping, lunging, head butting, etc. are all "nasty" behaviors from a dog, I was just using the word as a description.
> 
> ** Comment removed by Admin. Personal and has nothing to do with this discussion****


How can you say a dog you have never met is nasty towards people? My dog has never nipped or lunged. If you read any of my posts you would know that. Unfortunately, you ignore my posts and continue personal attacks on me and my dog. Growling is not a nasty behavior -- a dog *should* growl if strangers are coming into the house.

PS>>EVERY dog is a liability  My stepdad is defending a 120lb English Bull Mastiff's owners in court that jumped on an 8 year old licking him and the kid fell and hit his head on a table and now the parents are suing, despite the only damage being the kid crying. 

*I don't see how you turned "should I get my dog's CGC even though he growls and barks at strangers" into a conversation of "Wow. Your dog is nasty towards people and is a liability and you need to crate him 24/7"* Can you please stay on topic or get off the thread? 

Thank you Admins for removing the Nasty comments made by DJ before I could see them.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Although I believe your dog would be fine getting the CGC it kind of pains me that you're "cheating the system." It reminds me of the time someone posted about how as a CGC evaluator they wouldn't pet dogs on the tops of their heads but rather under their chin because some dogs react to head pats. It's nothing against you or your dog, just that it shows how the CGC isn't a complete test of a dog's ability to be a "good citizen." Your dog might get through all the tests, but its not really a good citizen with the way it acts at home. I'm not saying it acts bad, just not how I would picture a CGC dog acting.

Anytime you start titling a dog with titles that are supposed to make other people feel safe around your dog, and yet they can't in certain situations it diminishes what that title means for everyone else that has it. I'm just imagining an apartment complex allowing your dog in, and having him react the way he does, and that changing their opinion of what CGC means, which can hurt the other people trying to move in there with their CGC "aggressive breed" dog.

I'm not saying this as a knock against what you're doing, you're following the rules that are currently in place, its just upsetting that the CGC is being used as a work around. On some level its the same thing as bringing your very well behaved GSD places and making him out to be a service dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Growling is not a nasty behavior -- a dog *should* growl if strangers are coming into the house.


I don't think you have a nasty dog, but growling is a nasty behavior if it is towards people that have been invited into your home and YOU have no issue with them being there. They are not strangers if they are allowed to be there and your dog should not have an issue with it. What I do like is that you are working through this with your dog, and keeping him kenneled when needed to make sure he doesn't do anything (doesn't sound like he would, but he could).

I don't know what a signal can be, but a handshake, a hug, or any kind of "I'm happy to see you" behavior from you should signal to your dog that this person is welcome in your territory. I know this works because my dog feeds off of the energy I give off to people coming into my home. I have never had anyone come in that wasn't welcome or expected, so I have never felt threatened and therefore the dog has never reacted in any protective way towards a person. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you have said that he doesn't have the best nerves before, and I think you're doing everything possible to protect him from himself so to speak. You're a great dog owner in my book and have a great way of managing his issues.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Although I believe your dog would be fine getting the CGC it kind of pains me that you're "cheating the system." It reminds me of the time someone posted about how as a CGC evaluator they wouldn't pet dogs on the tops of their heads but rather under their chin because some dogs react to head pats. It's nothing against you or your dog, just that it shows how the CGC isn't a complete test of a dog's ability to be a "good citizen." Your dog might get through all the tests, but its not really a good citizen with the way it acts at home. I'm not saying it acts bad, just not how I would picture a CGC dog acting.
> 
> Anytime you start titling a dog with titles that are supposed to make other people feel safe around your dog, and yet they can't in certain situations it diminishes what that title means for everyone else that has it. I'm just imagining an apartment complex allowing your dog in, and having him react the way he does, and that changing their opinion of what CGC means, which can hurt the other people trying to move in there with their CGC "aggressive breed" dog.
> 
> I'm not saying this as a knock against what you're doing, you're following the rules that are currently in place, its just upsetting that the CGC is being used as a work around. On some level its the same thing as bringing your very well behaved GSD places and making him out to be a service dog.


That's exactly how I feel. As an AKC CGC evaluator, I am very strict about who I pass and who I don't. I've had people rage at me over the fact that I've failed their dogs over menial things that fall outside the acceptable behavior to pass a CGC test, "But they ONLY jumped on ONE stranger". I am strict because it's a reflection on the CGC program and myself. 
I was holding a test which included a large mix breed dog. No one knew what kind of dog he was but I suspected Boxer. When we got to the part of greeting a friendly stranger, the dog lunged at me. I stopped the test and pulled the owner aside and just let them know why I had stopped the test. The guy FREAKED on me, telling me that HE doesn't like strangers. OK, well... Greeting a friendly stranger is a requirement on the test. I thought the guy was going to punch me. The more agitated the dad got, the more agitated the dog got. I had to have them escorted out of the facility. He waited for me in the parking lot to confront me, so I had to call the police. Some people can not handle rejection. This guy terrified me.

Being polite in the house should be a factor in evaluating a dog for temperment. Unfortunately, it is not. I think the C.L.A.S.S. program encompasses much more than the CGC. I believe this is curriculum is much more about teaching the handler/owner than just the dog's manners.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Although I believe your dog would be fine getting the CGC it kind of pains me that you're "*cheating the system*." It reminds me of the time someone posted about how as a CGC evaluator they wouldn't pet dogs on the tops of their heads but rather under their chin because some dogs react to head pats. It's nothing against you or your dog, just that it shows how the CGC isn't a complete test of a dog's ability to be a "good citizen." Your dog might get through all the tests, but its not really a good citizen with the way it acts at home. I'm not saying it acts bad, just not how I would picture a CGC dog acting.
> 
> Anytime you start titling a dog with titles that are supposed to make other people feel safe around your dog, and yet they can't in certain situations it diminishes what that title means for everyone else that has it. I'm just imagining an apartment complex allowing your dog in, and having him react the way he does, and that changing their opinion of what CGC means, which can hurt the other people trying to move in there with their CGC "aggressive breed" dog.
> 
> I'm not saying this as a knock against what you're doing, you're following the rules that are currently in place, its just upsetting that the CGC is being used as a work around. On some level its the same thing as bringing your very well behaved GSD places and making him out to be a service dog.


I think really this is the whole basis of this thread. That's why she posted in the first place -- it didn't seem "right" to her to let the CGC gain her housing "credit," knowing how territorial the dog behaves at home. This falls back on those renting the apartments out as well. They really should be better informed on just what the CGC is and its limitations.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, cheating the system would involve her having the doctor write a note saying the dog was a service animal or therapy dog.

I think a CGC is just that, a CGC.

As pointed out, many dogs would not allow a stranger to "waltz right in" (LOVE that comment!), not just GSDs either, but wait a moment, isn't that why we got these dogs? Many of us wanted to have a dog who helps to ward off strangers entering our home.

It only becomes an issue when there's people who will have a need to and even a legal right to waltz right in, because the owner lives in an apartment.

If I were the OP I would simply crate the dog so to avoid anything happening like the maintenance needing access to that room.

And yes, my worst fear is fire, not for our belongings, most of which could be replaced, but my parrots and my dogs left home, crated or not


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think this has anything to do with crating or not crating the dog. I'm sure if OP knew maintenance was coming, the dog would be in a crate. Clearly the dog is managed beautifully with the issues that it has. The OP was wondering how ethical it would be to get a CGC on her dog, show it to an apartment, let them move in, while knowing that the dog has problems that the CGC doesn't test for and are much more relative to the living situation.

Its a wonderful ethical question. I myself didn't realize what OP was asking until the 4th or 5th page. As much as it pains me, as long as you're following the rules I don't think there's anything wrong with getting the CGC and proving to your potential apartment complex that your dog has it. Its up to them to realize what the test involves and what it means your dog can do.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> My stepdad is defending a 120lb English Bull Mastiff's owners in court that jumped on an 8 year old licking him and the kid fell and hit his head on a table and now the parents are suing, despite the only damage being the kid crying.


 
JERKS!!! :angryfire::angryfire:


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Thank you for answering the question. I am not trying to cheat the system. I had never thought about it until my stepdad brought it up. Rocky could get the CGC in about 3 months of training. Right now he can pass every part except supervised supervision. He can only do until I am out of site. If I am half a mile away but he can see me, FINE. But if I am 5 feet away behind a car, NO.

Just to confirm, no one at my apart is in danger. I would rent a house if this were an issue. All 10 people on my floor can come into the apartment with no problem. This is because when they moved in we went door to door and had everyone pet him and give him a treat. (remember, he has NO problems outside of the apartment now thanks to socialization!) We did this 7 days in a row, at least when people were home. I let all of them know never to enter the apartment without telling me, even if just asking to borrow sugar. (They don't know Rocky is kept in my room***)

The only issue MAY be if there was a fire. Honestly, I don't know if I posted the following on this thread or another but you can find it somewhere----I CRATE Rocky when I am in class and UNCRATE him when I am at the gym! This is because I go to the gym from 6am-8am in the mornings, when my roommate is home. Letting him stay out, in my room, with the door locked for 2 hours is not a liability issue to me. (roomie has a key if it is locked)

Also, good suggestion about "teaching" that a handshake means FRIEND. As I said, right now he is PERFECT outside. So all we do is meet the stranger outside and walk around with them for about 5 minutes while he pottys. Then they walk in the house with us and there is not a single bark or growl or even fear. The ONLY problem is when a new person walks straight through my door without ME opening it, or when someone walks in after I open it and yells Hi. Rocky is 110% perfect with the "KENNEL" command. I am confident that if he started to lunge from far away and I even WHISPERED kennel, he would stop immedietely and go to kennel. Prey drive or fear drive, this is his one PERFECT command.

Thanks to everyone for saying I am managing him well. If we have more than 4 people in the house, he goes crate. Just because if I have four girls over they are usually randomly screaming/yelling/giggling/ being very loud and it is too much for him. 

I am 150% sure that my dog will NEVER bite someone unless I am not home, there is a fire, my roommate perishes and is unable to get to him, the firemen break in the door and scare him.....EVEN then, I don't know if he would do anything. He may just run in his kennel.

The reason I am this confident is because I am proactive and leave NOTHING to chance with my boy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think it is cheating. The CGC is a test of how the dog does in public around other dogs and people, as well as some basic training/manners. Cheating would be slipping an evaluator a 50 dollar bill, and getting a pass even though the dog flew into another dog, or could not manage the supervised separation.

I think you should go ahead and get the certificate. I think it is well worth the training, and well worth the couple of bucks for the certificate. I think that it says to potential landlords that you are on the journey of being a responsible dog owner. It does not say that the dog is no threat to anyone ever.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

martemchik said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with crating or not crating the dog. I'm sure if OP knew maintenance was coming, the dog would be in a crate. *Clearly the dog is managed beautifully* with the issues that it has. The OP was wondering how ethical it would be to get a CGC on her dog, show it to an apartment, let them move in, while knowing that the dog has problems that the CGC doesn't test for and are much more relative to the living situation.
> 
> Its a wonderful ethical question. I myself didn't realize what OP was asking until the 4th or 5th page. As much as it pains me, as long as you're following the rules I don't think there's anything wrong with getting the CGC and proving to your potential apartment complex that your dog has it. *Its up to them to realize what the test involves and what it means your dog can do*.


Exactly. I credit the OP for considering the ethical aspect -- how many people would?

She's doing a fantastic job of management. Thumbs up.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

chelle said:


> Exactly. I credit the OP for considering the ethical aspect -- how many people would?
> 
> She's doing a fantastic job of management. Thumbs up.


Agreed!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Another agreed here!

and I can't see how to have a GSD that doesn't let strangers come into his territory is that odd. Or I'm missing something or the wormhole transferred me to a Labrador Retrievers forum...


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