# Anybody competing in Nosework?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Would love to know more about the sport of nosework, itself. Anybody competing in it?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not, but I'd also love to hear more about competing... 

Frag and I have been training in nosework for the last month and a half under a trainer that competes, but unfortunately there are no competitions in our area to try out. We just signed up for advanced nosework classes today.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Not yet but I did go to a class about it. It was basically a one-time class, they did an overview of what it was and then we got to try some beginners stuff with our dogs. I think Bianca was a little confused because she was trained in tracking and it's quite a different thing.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> Not yet but I did go to a class about it. It was basically a one-time class, they did an overview of what it was and then we got to try some beginners stuff with our dogs. I think Bianca was a little confused because she was trained in tracking and it's quite a different thing.


Yes, my trainer told us tracking is a lot different. I'm not sure how tracking is trained at all, but I have heard that they are not allowed to take their noses off the ground? In nosework it is expected that they sniff throughout the air to find hides hidden higher up in rooms as well. Frag climbed a ladder a few weeks ago to find a scent.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I found out that we have somebody right here in Watertown, a retired Statetrooper that is doing behavioral work and nosework with dogs. We met up today and I am seriously considering it with Yukon. He's too young not to do anything at all and I'd love to do with the two girls too but I don't know if that actually interferes with the SAR work? 

National Association of Canine Scent Work

They use Birch, Anise and Clove...


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

We've been in classes and practicing since last summer, and love, love, love it!! We have registered and will perform in our first ORT (Odor Recognition Test) next month.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am sitting in front of the shop and about to order the scent and the Kit.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm jealous! If it wouldn't mess with Aiden's tracking for Schutzhund then I'd definitely try it. It looks so cool!

Maybe the next dog. =P


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't think it would mess with schutzhund tracking, personally.

I wouldn't do it with a SAR dog because you want to know what they are indicating. Although, I think live find vs nosework would be a lot easier to combine than cadaver/HRD search work--especially if you use a refind in the live find training. I think HRD + nosework would actually compromise your credibility as a trained and certifiable dog team, unfortunately. (Considering HRD dogs sometimes have to work in law enforcement cases or maybe testify in court.)


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

My instructor goes very slowly to ensure a great foundation and love of the search. We didn't start on odor until about four months. No obedience or commands were alowed, only positive reinforcement. It seemed kind of silly when we started, just searching for high value food in boxes, but he works amazingly now. One class series was called Ridiculous Boxes and the teacher did amazing mazes and access problems. My favorite class was when there were boxes hanging by string from the ceiling and they would twirl and swing as the dog was searching. 

All I know is whenever Jake gets his harness on, he gets excited and I just come along for the fun!

I have no experience in Tracking, so I don't know how to compare the two. I'm sure it would help down the road...maybe not training the two at the same time...but, the dog gains confidence in his nose and I learn how to read my dog.  

I'm sure you will have a blast! If you are the same as me, anything I do with my dog is fun and a great bonding experience.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've seen the food approach today. It's very different from what I've seen with Cadaver dogs. Instead of food I learned to use the Scent Ball to imprint the dog with the scent. But the food approach is very interesting as well.

I checked our Area. There is one lady whose been at the workshops but isn't an instructor yet, any other instructor is as far as five to six hours... like I said before, I live in the middle of a frickin wasteland when it comes up to dog stuff.

IT'S FRUSTRATING!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How do you make the transition from the food to the scent? That's what I'm interested in. And how do you reward the dog after you transfer to the scent? Food or Toy?


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

I am far from experienced in the matter, just a student. My instructor says it is Classical Conditioning technique. Now he searches unpaired (the odor without food) but we reward at site when he alerts. The great thing is that in the beginning we would throw food into the boxes so they eventually learn to stick with the scent waiting for the reward which makes it easier to call an alert. Some other students use toys ie tugs, balls, as reinforcement.

I've never heard of a scent ball. I'm sure there are many techniques and processes. I find it all interesting.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

The transition from food to odor was smoother than I expected. You start "pairing." The odor is in a tin with a bit of food under it. Every dog takes a different amount of getting it, but they start making the association that food/toy comes when they smell the odor and alert. 

Did that answer your question? I am a little slow at responding.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So technically, you can use food in the beginning, once you've got the foundation you transition to the odor, go away from the food and reward with the toy, once the dog is actually searching for the odor instead of the food.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

You can reward with food or toy in the beginning or once you start pairing. 

We have a two piece tin that our trainer uses, which is also magnetic for car hides. It has two round tins on a metal base, that unscrew in half. Food goes in one (or part of a tennis ball w/scent) and scent in the other. They find the scent/food but don't get that food anymore, they get rewarded at the site with food or a toy. I mix up using a ball and food with Frag.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

I think some trainers train that way, but mine just has us stick with the same type of reward. Some students had their dogs search for the toys at the beginning because they weren't food driven, and the others that were food driven always reward with food. When we moved to odor, if they were using the toy, they would only put a small piece of the toy with the odor. When they alerted they would reward with a short play session. With the food driven dog we just reward with food, and would throw/place food in the box and at the tin so the dog would keep his eye on the odor instead of us as the source. Thus, the odor is the generator of the reward, not the handler.

This sport is great for reactive dogs since each dog works alone - in training sessions and at the trials.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes, the ball approach is how'd I do it too, simply because the hunt drive is very powerful. The scent on the toy, is what I've been calling the scent ball


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

Someone in our class has the two tins that you speak of. My instructor was just talking about it, but not all instructors have the same opinion: if the food or toy is concealed and not accessible to the dog it may create a problem. She said it is important that they can self reward at the site - via a small morsel of food until you can get there to "secretly" deliver more (not sure how it works with a toy). If they can't self reward at the site, unless you are super quick, they may look to you for the reward instead of sticking to the odor.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

When I moved on to Odor, the students that were working with the ball/toy moved to a different class, so I can't see how that works.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

CynRes said:


> Someone in our class has the two tins that you speak of. My instructor was just talking about it, but not all instructors have the same opinion: if the food or toy is concealed and not accessible to the dog it may create a problem. She said it is important that they can self reward at the site - via a small morsel of food until you can get there to "secretly" deliver more (not sure how it works with a toy). If they can't self reward at the site, unless you are super quick, they may look to you for the reward instead of sticking to the odor.



You start out with imprinting the dog. You play with the scentball and play fetch. After that you hide the ball and the dog searches for it. Then you take the ball away and hide the scent and reward with another ball directly at the source. There are various shaping devices that can be used as well. However, that is the short version.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

I have to go now, but I hope you keep me posted on your experiences


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## lrandf (Nov 3, 2009)

Love, love, love nosework! We have been doing it for about a year now. Nova passed his ORT - Birch last December and we are going for our NW1 in June. The sport is getting popular so hopefully they'll offer more classes and trials later.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> So technically, you can use food in the beginning, once you've got the foundation you transition to the odor, go away from the food and reward with the toy, once the dog is actually searching for the odor instead of the food.


Not necessarily. Our trainer does it differently, he trained military detection dogs at Lackland AFB before moving to the Bay Area. He uses the same 3 odors that the K9 Nosework people do, so his students can go on to compete in trials, but he'll train on other things too, whatever you want, really. 

He uses the same methods that he used to train military working dogs, but has adapted them for pet dogs who may not have the same level of drive. He starts out pairing the reward and the scent right from the very beginning. He first determines what the dog is most willing to work for, either food or a toy. If it's a toy, he'll put an identical one in the drawer with the odor and hide another one under his arm to reward with, if it's food, he'll put some treats in a separate bowl in the reward, and we use these food tubes as the reward: Kyjen Dog Games Treat Training Tube Fetch & Training Device Dog Toy (Large)

You can get something similar at hardware stores, they're made for storing nuts and bolts and stuff:










Once the dog is consistently alerting to the odor paired with the food or toy, the food or toy in the drawer is phased out, and they are searching on the scent alone. Andrew is in the process of making a series of training DVDs with Leerburg - my dogs were videoed a couple of weeks ago, and are supposed to appear in the first one: Leerburg | Nosework

Here's Andrew working with a couple of dogs - Ruxpin was only 5 month old in this video, with less than 10 training sessions:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> He uses the same methods that he used to train military working dogs, but has adapted them for pet dogs who may not have the same level of drive. He starts out pairing the reward and the scent right from the very beginning. He first determines what the dog is most willing to work for, either food or a toy. If it's a toy, he'll put an identical one in the drawer with the odor and hide another one under his arm to reward with, if it's food, he'll put some treats in a separate bowl in the reward, and we use these food tubes as the reward


so the imprinting is done right from the beginning like with the Cadaver dogs. I much rather use a toy because I'd feel much more confident building it up on a toy.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

I love to hear of different techniques. Thanks for sharing the video and I hope you post a clip of your dog's debut, if you can. 

As in any subject or activity that I begin, it seems as though the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know.  That is why I always stress that I'm just a student and far from knowing all of the ins and outs. I benefit so much from forums like this.

Jake was asked to be a demo dog for a pet expo this coming Saturday to draw more attention to the sport. I'm excited, but he has never performed in front of a large crowd so I hope he can keep his usual level of focus. ummm...and I can too. :laugh:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've done a short notice demo for SAR even though I never performed with my dog in front of such a large crowd. Trust your dog. You'll probably be more nervous than the dog. Just trust your dog. If you guys weren't good you hadn't been asked to perform a demonstration.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks 

btw, I read your other thread about your Frag. You have so much to be proud of!! Congrats!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

CynRes said:


> Thanks
> 
> btw, I read your other thread about your Frag. You have so much to be proud of!! Congrats!



Huh? Frag is DJEtzels Dog. 

Mine are Indra, Nala and Yukon.


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## CynRes (Jan 2, 2012)

Oops! I'm getting too tired. Sorry!!! I have no idea how I got so mixed up. I'd better head off..


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

"*....the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know....*" --CynRes,

The more I wade into the vast sea of knowledge the more I need to surround myself with SWIMMERS haha......but I think what you said would make a better fit for a tattoo on my forehead!

Three of our girls are in tracking.... mainly for educating GM and myself. So I really love reading these threads.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've been doing it with Yukon for two days now and trying to use the food approach. 
He's quite determined.

So those that are doing it a little longer, what ya'll think? 
What can I do? How many boxes? Anything else than just boxes? How long should I use the boxes before I use something else? 

http://youtu.be/lEsIVZeY_B0

He really likes doing it, literally enjoying it and picks it up quite fast but I don't want to rush it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I've been doing it with Yukon for two days now and trying to use the food approach.
> He's quite determined.
> 
> So those that are doing it a little longer, what ya'll think?
> ...


We did two sessions with just boxes (an hour long class, probably 4 searches each + some time at home) before we moved to hiding in other objects. during the second session we worked on hiding treats in clear pastic tupperware with holes in the lid for scent to seep out, to transition them to searching for that in other areas, instead of putting treats in a pile of towels, etc. Then third week started hiding that NEAR the boxes, in towels, under tables, etc. Third week we got rid of the boxes and hid in kitchen places, etc. Fourth week we were doing vehicle searches. 

Frag did this stuff as a puppy (I trained him) so he had a better idea of what was going on, but if Yukon is picking it up quick, there's no harm in trying to transition a little quicker or doing harder hides. You can always move closer to the hide to help him & then move back a step in the training process if he doesn't get it and you're moving too fast. Frag climbed a ladder to find a hide in our second week of classes. XD


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

What behaviors are acceptable as an "alert"? Or what do most folks teach as an alert?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

From what my trainer has told us, any behavior is acceptable as an alert, the handler just has to be able to recognize it and in a competition, say "Yep, my dog found it right here!" or "Nope, this room has nothing!"

Frag's "alert" so far (has not been developed much yet) is backing off of a scent and either sitting/looking at me, or just turning at looking at me. I can tell when he has a scent, so it's easy to know after I see him catch a wiff if he's serious when he stops and looks at me.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I have a question on the nosework. Am I correct in the understanding that the odors being used are odors such perfumed oils and such? Cannot find the rules.....


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> I have a question on the nosework. Am I correct in the understanding that the odors being used are odors such perfumed oils and such? Cannot find the rules.....


The three oils used are Birch, Anise, and Clove. Never anything else. These are the three that the dog has to be able to recognize and distinguish between.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

gotcha. awesome. Something for you all to ponder. Using any other odor to start the dog's training is wasting effort. If you are using a toy reward, use the target odor with the toy for imprinting. You all can train your dogs the exact way that we train our narc,bomb and cadaver dogs. Personally,I would also put some kind of definitive alert on the dog.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> gotcha. awesome. Something for you all to ponder. Using any other odor to start the dog's training is wasting effort. If you are using a toy reward, use the target odor with the toy for imprinting. You all can train your dogs the exact way that we train our narc,bomb and cadaver dogs. Personally,I would also put some kind of definitive alert on the dog.


Everyone does use definitive alerts for their dogs. They're all just different.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well, FYI, standing and looking at you can cause you problems. I would suggest going with the sit if you want passive. Stopping and looking back in distracting venues could be misinterpreted by you. A sit /stare at source would be easy to you to do Also,FYI for those training in this,you will be faced with the same maintenance training issues that we cops have with regard to false alerts . 
Aggressive alert is also easy to train and maintain


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BlackGSD said:


> What behaviors are acceptable as an "alert"? Or what do most folks teach as an alert?


As others have said, anything the handler can recognize as an alert is acceptable according to the K9 Nosework rules. 

Our trainer teaches the sit and stare at source that Renee recommends. You can see an example of it in the video of Ruxpin that I posted above.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Yes, I understood that the alert ,per se, was not mandatory however, not having one can increase false alert issues. Just trying to help. I like to encourage this new thing because at least it shows a bit of the dog's capability of using its nose plus I think folks might enjoy it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We had some trouble with Halo looking back after finding the scent and had to work on getting a few seconds of duration with the stare, so if she looked at it and turned around we'd wait for her to turn back to it again to reward. 

She also tends to offer a down rather than a sit, which is okay as long as the scent is low enough, but could be a problem if it's higher up. Down is her strongest default behavior so that's what she'll do if I don't cue something else. We did start out cuing the sit once she was indicating on the scent, but need to fade that out so she does it automatically. She's still a work in process.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

It takes time for you to get 100watts on that lightbulb..... haha
The main thing we use to get that solid sit/stare is the desire for the reward. Once they understand that the only time they get their reward is when they exhibit the response that you demand,they will be solid. 
just never compromise. Always remember,when we work dogs it is a contract. The reward is their paycheck. Exhibit the behavior that I want and the dog gets his paycheck. Nothing less gets him paid 

where are the rules for this? cannot find them . I have some friends interested.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's the rulebook, there were some changes made in November: National Association of Canine Scent Work (NACSW)


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> Well, FYI, standing and looking at you can cause you problems. I would suggest going with the sit if you want passive. Stopping and looking back in distracting venues could be misinterpreted by you. A sit /stare at source would be easy to you to do Also,FYI for those training in this,you will be faced with the same maintenance training issues that we cops have with regard to false alerts .
> Aggressive alert is also easy to train and maintain


I guess it all depends on the handler/dog. Frag never stops looking and I just "know" when he stops and looks at me after catching a whif that he's found it. It's the only time he stops!


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

DJEtzel said:


> I guess it all depends on the handler/dog. Frag never stops looking and I just "know" when he stops and looks at me after catching a whif that he's found it. It's the only time he stops!


 
Well, the fact remains,that if his drive for the reward is high there is a very large chance that he WILL eventually try to false alert. It is just what the majority of scent detector dogs do. I understand that you have not handled a boatload of detector dogs so you are not necessarily understanding what I am saying but trust me, they do it. Now the exception are the dogs that are not real bright and are so driven for the reward that it is there or it is not. I have two labs that way. Too dumb to figure out the false alert game. Depends on the dog. Also, since you are inexperienced, FYI, handlers can inadvertently cue the do to alert. This manifests itself in false alerts and/or dog only alerting when the handler cues. This is why we set up blind searches meaning that someone else sets up the scenario and the handler does not know where the aid. As I have said,this type of training will create the same issues that we cops and military handlers deal with because they are dogs.. LOL


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's the rulebook, there were some changes made in November: National Association of Canine Scent Work (NACSW)


 

thank you! Notice that on the NW2 a definitive final trained response will be required and that it appears that the rules changed to present the possibility of a blank area. The blank area is where the false alert situation will come into play. Is AKC moving toward recognizing these titles?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

What I don't like is that you can't trial multiple dogs at the same trial... that really sucks when you live in an area where trials are rare... great...


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

too bad. unless they are trying to limit the number until they get well established


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It really is extremely frustrating if you have two dogs and only one trial in half a year in the area which is another State away. That really gets you absolutely nowhere in the sport.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

There is a nosework class starting here in a couple of weeks- I think I'm going to sign up!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've got the Birch Scent. Just imprinting the ball with the scent and going to work Nala on the scent tomorrow or the day after. 

Question, what known Indications are out there? Is it all passive indications? 

Is the sit the most common indication?


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Stella just finished up a nosework session not too long ago. She loved it. Her trainer started with food in boxes and started pairing the last class we went to. Unfortunately we had to take a break this month but I would like to start again. I am trying to decide whether to continue with nosework or try agility.....


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

ladylaw203 said:


> Well, FYI, standing and looking at you can cause you problems. I would suggest going with the sit if you want passive. Stopping and looking back in distracting venues could be misinterpreted by you. A sit /stare at source would be easy to you to do Also,FYI for those training in this,you will be faced with the same maintenance training issues that we cops have with regard to false alerts .
> Aggressive alert is also easy to train and maintain


What is an "aggressive alert" dog typically expected to do when the scent is somewhere they can't reach?? (For instance a few feet over their head when they are standing on their hinds legs??)

Also, Renee, 

I wouldn't be surprised if active alerts weren't usually encouraged for those hoping to get titles because it could cause them to get "faults" or fail if the dog damages things or excessively scratches vehicles. (Which obviously isn't an issue for a Police K9. )


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackGSD said:


> What is an "aggressive alert" dog typically expected to do when the scent is somewhere they can't reach?? (For instance a few feet over their head when they are standing on their hinds legs??)
> 
> Also, Renee,
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if active alerts weren't usually encouraged for those hoping to get titles because it could cause them to get "faults" or fail if the dog damages things or excessively scratches vehicles. (Which obviously isn't an issue for a Police K9. )


That's a good question. I read in the regulations that pawing a car is a fault. Unless I got that wrong.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

oh,ok,pawing a car bad. sigh Well, that leaves you with the passive sit stare or a bark alert . I think there are regulations with regard to putting it too high. Passive dogs really have a problem with high. One can teach the paw touch as opposed to the dog scratching the paint off of something which is what I train 

Also, why in the world are these "trainers" training the dog to find food??? There is no reason to start out with that unless someone is dragging out the training for more sessions which equal $$$$ 


I am going to help some folks down here with this training.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> oh,ok,pawing a car bad. sigh Well, that leaves you with the passive sit stare or a bark alert . I think there are regulations with regard to putting it too high. Passive dogs really have a problem with high. One can teach the paw touch as opposed to the dog scratching the paint off of something which is what I train
> 
> Also, why in the world are these "trainers" training the dog to find food??? There is no reason to start out with that unless someone is dragging out the training for more sessions which equal $$$$
> 
> ...


Because it's supposed to be a sport for the little man and some dogs just don't have that high prey/hunt drive but they have food drive, so they are working with food instead. 

It's not the police or the military so they don't have to worry about drives. Just let them have fun with whatever the dog is offering. 

That being said, I was shocked when I saw the price for the Nosework Camp. Over 700 Dollars for a weekend with the dog... sorry but I'm not going to pay that much.

And I wouldn't work my dog with food when hunt/prey is available but some dogs, just don't have it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting thread. Just starting Beau on his HRD indication. Have a BSD and wooden boxes for a week [we are rotating the equipment around the team HRD handlers-so I should get once a month or so]. 

All the blank boxes have visual tennis balls and he has unsuccesfully attacked every one with no balls, and is learning that the only way he is going to get is ball is to sit and stare at the right box. He has indicated on all the wrong boxes but he seems to have figured that out quickly. He has also tried to dismantle the right box too. 

Having to elevate the set up as he is throwing a down and I want to encourage a sit.He is definitely staring at source.

Also- the backing up and dancing on the front feet. Is that an excitement anticipation thing? Should I adjust for less throw? Want to work towards a steady calm indication.

---

Grim was reliable with sit at source and I did not push the stare but I want it with Beau.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I was thinking about building a two-man BSD. Meaning, without the automatic system. You can have a second person behind the wall that actually drops the ball into it without the ball being visible to the dog. However, that's the thing. You need a helper.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We all have plans to build ball walls of our own. But that is time and money and I need to get moving on the indication now.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Because it's supposed to be a sport for the little man and some dogs just don't have that high prey/hunt drive but they have food drive, so they are working with food instead.
> 
> .


 
I understand all of that. BUT one trains the dog to find the target odor and rewards with food. One does not train the dog to find food THEN add the target odor. That is training the dog twice if that is how it is being done.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Also- the backing up and dancing on the front feet. Is that an excitement anticipation thing? Should I adjust for less throw? Want to work towards a steady calm indication.
> 
> ---
> .


 
That is the problem with the BSD. That is why I do not use it much. I can tell when a dog comes to me that has had over exposure. Lose that for a while. The dogs back up in anticipation of the reward being launched. Back up a step or two. Place the training aid or scented reward at the dog's eye level. Demand the instant sit/stare as close to source as possible EVERY time. Then deliver the reward. This must get to be a habit before you move on. Does this make sense?

Also, the Randy Hare style box is great for passive sit/stare and you can deliver the reward yourself. Look at those. I bought five of them but they can be built fairly easily

The main thing is to *always* demand the sit/stare close to source and never compromise. The alert needs to be rock solid before moving on to working scenarios. Once the lightbulb goes off the dog will transition the crisp alert to the field. BUT BUT the foundation must be there before moving on or it WILL get sloppy


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> That is the problem with the BSD. That is why I do not use it much. I can tell when a dog comes to me that has had over exposure. Lose that for a while. The dogs back up in anticipation of the reward being launched. Back up a step or two. Place the training aid or scented reward at the dog's eye level. Demand the instant sit/stare as close to source as possible EVERY time. Then deliver the reward. This must get to be a habit before you move on. Does this make sense?


Yes - I had a session yesterday, backed off because that is what I saw and I was not going to mark and reward dancing and backing up--sounds like I pegged the problem.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

ladylaw203 said:


> . BUT one trains the dog to find the target odor and rewards with food. One does not train the dog to find food THEN add the target odor. That is training the dog twice if that is how it is being done.


That is exactly what I was thinking. WHY do they not use the target odor from day 1?
Anyone that is taking classes ever asked?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I think the general idea with food is just like the one you have with tracking. First the dog needs to learn that he actually has to search something and what he's searching for. You can't just put the source out and expect your dog to find it since he has no idea what he's looking for. 

With tracking you lay food tracks and have the dog track the food. Same thing you do with the boxes. You put the food out in a box and let the dog search. 
With tracking, then you add the articles to the food but you still have a piece of food underneath the article. At least that is how I learned it from my father. Then the food is completely removed and at the end of the track they get the jackpot. 

Same with the boxes. Once they have the general idea what they are supposed to do, you add the scent and then you remove the food and use it as reward. 

That being said, I wouldn't let them search boxes for food for too long. I'd have them do it two or three days and then add the scent right away and remove the food as soon as possible.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

But with a trailing dog you don't bait the track and they learn to follow the scent trail.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

I took a class last year. It seems like the organization send out DVD's to anyone who wanted to "teach" a class or it was something they bought. I was friends with the teacher and she said I could borrow it but I never took her up on the offer. Reading through the posts it sounds like everyone did exactly what we did. It just seems to be the "hot" thing to do right now. Errow is way too extreme in his antics and indications meaning he actually wanted to search. I had a hard time dealing with the pet poodle strolling through the scents and clearing not wanting to be there. So I didn't continue on with it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> Also, since you are inexperienced, FYI, handlers can inadvertently cue the do to alert. This manifests itself in false alerts and/or dog only alerting when the handler cues. This is why we set up blind searches meaning that someone else sets up the scenario and the handler does not know where the aid. As I have said,this type of training will create the same issues that we cops and military handlers deal with because they are dogs.. LOL


Thanks, but I'm not that inexperienced. Already know all about it and I don't usually hide searches for this purpose. Either my SO or trainer does. 



ladylaw203 said:


> Also, why in the world are these "trainers" training the dog to find food??? There is no reason to start out with that unless someone is dragging out the training for more sessions which equal $$$$





ladylaw203 said:


> I understand all of that. BUT one trains the dog to find the target odor and rewards with food. One does not train the dog to find food THEN add the target odor. That is training the dog twice if that is how it is being done.





BlackGSD said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking. WHY do they not use the target odor from day 1?
> Anyone that is taking classes ever asked?


I assume it's just like training anything else. You want the dog doing what you need it to do before adding extra commands/work. The dogs need to figure out what the game is and what's expected of them before they're told to find a specific scent, too. And since most dogs are motivated by food, they start with hiding food for them to find. Extra scents can confuse a dog that has no idea what it's doing already.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> But with a trailing dog you don't bait the track and they learn to follow the scent trail.


Try that with a bunch of people that come from the city and have never done anything with their dogs whatsoever. You go the easiest route possible. The easiest way is to go via the food. 

It's not trailing, it's not SAR, it's not police work... it's a sport for every dog owner team out there. You want to break it down so the general public can do it. 

What you do, or I do is different, we chose the direct way via the prey/hunt drive.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

DJEtzel said:


> Thanks, but I'm not that inexperienced. Already know all about it and I don't usually hide searches for this purpose. Either my SO or trainer does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With all due respect, you are inexperienced with regard to we who have been training scent detector dogs in the real world for almost 30years. I am not being ugly,just pointing out that many of us have trained literally hundreds of scent detector dogs and this is what this is  My advice is free here. Take it or leave it. I get paid a lot of money for my training advice. I am simply trying to help folks here for free


And,that is incorrect. Training the dog to find food is training the dog twice. AND is one training the final trained response along with that?? Extra scents ,as you put it, is how we train the dogs. We use a scented reward along with the target odor. Now,I do realize that most of these dogs do not have the retrieve drive that we use.HOWEVER, one puts the treats ( I say treats because a true food reward dog is trained utilizing food depravation. This type of training is using treats). out along WITH an abundance of the target odor. Once the dog is searching and offering an alert,to a degree,one removes everything but the target odor. Dogs can scent discriminate . Multiple scents do not confuse the dog. Training on treats first is simply doubling the effort. The target odor can be included in the imprinting phase with no problem


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Yes - I had a session yesterday, backed off because that is what I saw and I was not going to mark and reward dancing and backing up--sounds like I pegged the problem.


 
you did!! I see a lot of high drive dogs anticipating the launch of the reward. They love it!! But,it can create that backing up behavior as does chunking the reward from a distance. I do like the BSD. I have that as well as the walls etc. I use this mostly for bomb dogs whose handlers have chunked the reward from Dallas and created a dog who sits and looks back at the handler. consistent delivery of the reward from source will prevent this from ever occurring.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm watching the Randy Hare videos right now. Thanks for posting about him.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> But with a trailing dog you don't bait the track and they learn to follow the scent trail.


 

Yep. never used food in my life. Other motivators for tracking/trailing training. Sport folks use food depravation. Again, not treat training. Dog eats when he successfully completes the track. And that is ONLY when he eats.  Big difference in treat reward,conditioned response and food depravation training which is how ATF trains their bomb dogs


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> I'm watching the Randy Hare videos right now. Thanks for posting about him.


 
Those boxes are pretty cool. Dont get caught up in that tug stuff. Only works on dogs who like to tug. My soft mouthed retrievers would look at him like he was nuts......LOL He will tell you that too those boxes rock though and would not be that tough to build.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> Those boxes are pretty cool. Dont get caught up in that tug stuff. Only works on dogs who like to tug. My soft mouthed retrievers would look at him like he was nuts......LOL He will tell you that too those boxes rock though and would not be that tough to build.


so how do you use them for the retriever?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> With all due respect, you are inexperienced with regard to we who have been training scent detector dogs in the real world for almost 30years. I am not being ugly,just pointing out that many of us have trained literally hundreds of scent detector dogs and this is what this is  My advice is free here. Take it or leave it. I get paid a lot of money for my training advice. I am simply trying to help folks here for free


I'm not doing anything like training scent detector dogs. Nosework is not sniffing for bombs and it's not trained the same. Patronizing me is not helping at all. I may not be working a detection dog, but I know what the sport is, how to train it, and how to trial for it and didn't ask for your input on false alerts, handler cues, or anything else. You're being extremely "holier than thou" in this thread.



> And,that is incorrect. Training the dog to find food is training the dog twice. AND is one training the final trained response along with that?? Extra scents ,as you put it, is how we train the dogs. We use a scented reward along with the target odor. Now,I do realize that most of these dogs do not have the retrieve drive that we use.HOWEVER, one puts the treats ( I say treats because a true food reward dog is trained utilizing food depravation. This type of training is using treats). out along WITH an abundance of the target odor. Once the dog is searching and offering an alert,to a degree,one removes everything but the target odor. Dogs can scent discriminate . Multiple scents do not confuse the dog. Training on treats first is simply doubling the effort. The target odor can be included in the imprinting phase with no problem


Once again, how YOU train dogs is your business, but every nosework trainer I've heard of trains this way, so there's got to be a good reason for it. You aren't training average dogs for nosework, you're training well-bred dogs to sniff out explosives or drugs. You really can't compare the two.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would love to go to a Randy Hare seminar - I gather though if you say the handler can deliver the reward with those boxes -- do you just go box to box and hold your hand with the ball over the PVC pipe but only release the ball if you are at the correct box with the correct indication and the dog learns to ignore the ball in your hand? 

I always thought it was a two person operation like the wall.

EDIT - food. I have seen fairly low drive dogs worked with food and a clicker with Koenig's bucket and click method [which is just marker training and a very old technique with blocks]. For what I am doing I don't want it because I want a more focused and independant dog than that method seems to produce...but wouldnt that work with a food driven dog for a sport?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not doing anything like training scent detector dogs. Nosework is not sniffing for bombs and it's not trained the same. Patronizing me is not helping at all. I may not be working a detection dog, but I know what the sport is, how to train it, and how to trial for it and didn't ask for your input on false alerts, handler cues, or anything else. You're being extremely "holier than thou" in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, how YOU train dogs is your business, but every nosework trainer I've heard of trains this way, so there's got to be a good reason for it. You aren't training average dogs for nosework, you're training well-bred dogs to sniff out explosives or drugs. You really can't compare the two.


 
Did not mean to offend,simply offer help as I am to folks locally and yes,scent detection training is the same. Dog is trained to search for a target odor and indicate on same. No difference other than some restrictions on the final trained response. It IS the same. And, along with that,the handlers will experience the same pittfalls as we police k9 trainers,such as false alerts,fringing,alerting on human odor due to lack of proofing etc etc. which can prevent them from doing well in the sport. And a lot of those nosework trainers were not scent detector dog trainers and do not know this stuff. I have two friends who are holding classes and they do not train that way because they train scent detector dogs. All I have been attempting here is to help folks do well in something they are interested in. If that is offensive, sorry.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Nosework attracts all kinds of people and dogs, many of which are reactive pets that have been adopted etc. The food is used primarily to build motivation. While it may be teaching twice, many of the dogs would not be able to learn nosework without the motivation of the treats. 

We did Nosework 1 and found it fun but slooooowwww due to the way they have the courses setup around here (6 weeks per level -1 hr per session and 5 or 6 levels). The scents are not even introduced until Level 2. Though I did get a lot out of pre-class discussions with Gail McCarthy, the trainer, who is also an experienced SAR and GSD person.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I would love to go to a Randy Hare seminar - I gather though if you say the handler can deliver the reward with those boxes -- do you just go box to box and hold your hand with the ball over the PVC pipe but only release the ball if you are at the correct box with the correct indication and the dog learns to ignore the ball in your hand?
> 
> I always thought it was a two person operation like the wall.


Yep. I have the ball hidden on my person. While the dog is staring at the source, I ease the ball into the pipe. If the focus is correct,the dog is not noticing what I do. I hang them on posts,trees etc where I can somewhat step behind the box while the dog is staring at the opening. 
pretty cool design. Also build one and never use it though so you have a total blank


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

TechieDog said:


> Nosework attracts all kinds of people and dogs, many of which are reactive pets that have been adopted etc. The food is used primarily to build motivation. While it may be teaching twice, many of the dogs would not be able to learn nosework without the motivation of the treats.
> 
> We did Nosework 1 and found it fun but slooooowwww due to the way they have the courses setup around here (6 weeks per level -1 hr per session and 5 or 6 levels). The scents are not even introduced until Level 2. Though I did get a lot out of pre-class discussions with Gail McCarthy, the trainer, who is also an experienced SAR and GSD person.


 
I hear ya. But the target odor can be introduced with the treats thus expediting the training. At a point,once the lightbulb is on, the treats are removed and the target odor remains. Then the handler simply rewards the dog for locating it. That is a heck of a time commitment. I had thought about just putting on weekend seminar or something but then some folks probably have trouble traveling. Gas is going sky high too
I think it is pretty cool and folks seem to enjoy it


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> Did not mean to offend,simply offer help as I am to folks locally and yes,scent detection training is the same. Dog is trained to search for a target odor and indicate on same. No difference other than some restrictions on the final trained response. It IS the same. And, along with that,the handlers will experience the same pittfalls as we police k9 trainers,such as false alerts,fringing,alerting on human odor due to lack of proofing etc etc. which can prevent them from doing well in the sport. And a lot of those nosework trainers were not scent detector dog trainers and do not know this stuff. I have two friends who are holding classes and they do not train that way because they train scent detector dogs. All I have been attempting here is to help folks do well in something they are interested in. If that is offensive, sorry.


Absolutely not offensive, especially since it's also very important for Cadaver. I'm like a sponge when it comes up to detection. The only reason I want to do Nosework is to learn how to train these dogs without ending up in a legal mess. It's the PERFECT way to get into detection without having to fear legal repercussions. 
It feels like a waste to use a dog like Nala for that but there are more dogs like her out there. She's going to be my first detection dog, she's got the drive and everything she needs and she's perfect to learn it all. From Scratch.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

ladylaw203 said:


> I hear ya. But the target odor can be introduced with the treats thus expediting the training. At a point,once the lightbulb is on, the treats are removed and the target odor remains. Then the handler simply rewards the dog for locating it. That is a heck of a time commitment. I had thought about just putting on weekend seminar or something but then some folks probably have trouble traveling. Gas is going sky high too
> I think it is pretty cool and folks seem to enjoy it


That's exactly how they introduce scent too. They pair it with the food and then go to scent only and reward with food at the location. They teach how to reward at the location as the last part of the level 1 classes. 
The way its setup around here with all of the 6week sessions and levels it is a huge time committment AND it is costly too since you have to pay for 6 levels. For some dogs and handlers that may be needed but I really would have appreciated something more expedited!


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

You can see how they have the levels broken out and what each level includes here: Especially for Pets - K9 Nose Work
Most of the places around here are exactly the same way. 
It is $180 for each level which includes (6) 1-hr sessions.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> You can see how they have the levels broken out and what each level includes here: Especially for Pets - K9 Nose Work
> Most of the places around here are exactly the same way.
> It is $180 for each level which includes (6) 1-hr sessions.


12 Weeks without Scent at all? 

I tell you what, I've got Nalas Ball in the scent bag with the birch scent and will take her out later to play with the scent ball to get her imprinted, I do that probably for the next two weeks, gradually raising the level and then replace the ball with the odor itself.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I can see how it might take that long if you have a dog that has nooooo drive whatsoever and you really have to build it up first. But if you have a dog that is in the game from day one... why would you drag it out over 12 weeks until you finally get to pair the reward with the scent. 

I don't know if it is to make money or to truly teach the people how to read their dogs. Look at that video, does anyone really need to do it for 12 weeks to understand how the dog is working scent?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> HOWEVER, one puts the treats ( I say treats because a true food reward dog is trained utilizing food depravation. This type of training is using treats). out along WITH an abundance of the target odor. Once the dog is searching and offering an alert,to a degree,one removes everything but the target odor. Dogs can scent discriminate . Multiple scents do not confuse the dog. Training on treats first is simply doubling the effort. The target odor can be included in the imprinting phase with no problem


That's how we do it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Why would you wait until level V to teach the final trained response? If each course is six weeks long... and you do five courses, isn't that a bit long to wait for the final trained response?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Why would you wait until level V to teach the final trained response? If each course is six weeks long... and you do five courses, isn't that a bit long to wait for the final trained response?


yep. the NW1 does not require a traditional final trained response from what I am reading,yet the NW2 does. That would mean many many many more sessions for $ Just sayin. There is no logical reason that I can come up with to train a dog to locate a target odor,be rewarded for same and not simultaneously teach a FTR other than to drag it out. If I am wrong someone enlighten me. If the person wants to carry on to the NW2 title,THEN they must train a definitive FTR. silly. Oh well. 

Mrs.K. yes, this is something you could do without the subsequent liability legally. However, for that to cross over,it must be done correctly. Like I say, folks will get false alerts,dogs fringing, yadda yadda just like we do. Just being a dog in the scent detector dog world


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Mrs.K. yes, this is something you could do without the subsequent liability legally. However, for that to cross over,it must be done correctly. Like I say, folks will get false alerts,dogs fringing, yadda yadda just like we do. Just being a dog in the scent detector dog world


That's what I'm planning to do. Keep on posting about the methods. Those boxes are easy and cheap to build. The beautiful thing is, I can do it correctly, not having to worry about legal issues, where to get the source from, to certify or re-certify and learn on my own terms, time and dime. 

Yeah, I'll probably run into all these issues but that's going to be part of the learning process. So I can educate myself on detection without having to go through all the cadaver hoops.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Let me know how cheaply and easily you can build the boxes. I know folks who did make them decide that buying them already made was worth the expense (about $100 each) ... they look easy enough. 

From experience with HR= hot boxes are always kept separate from the other boxes and only used with the target odor. One box is always blank, other boxes can have things in them but not target odor. Of course I never reward on residual odor but why add it to this kind of training.

----

The way the nosework program is set up does seem a long and circuitious route to get there...but perhaps it is from a different starting point with learning how to read dogs, and working with dogs who may not be the kind selected for detection work in the first place....

I am only taking my time with Beau to teach things like puppy manners, obedience etc. Now that he can hold a sit and stay I think we have the maturity to sit and stare at source. Probably could have done earlier had I not been getting Grim ready for his NAPWDA recert [I was not prepared for the new obedience test- I had control but nothing formal]---and of course, now, Grim is recertified and not working and may not ever work again .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Alpha K9 sells them for 145 dollars plus shipping. They were talking about immitations etc. I think a box can be build for less than 45 dollars material. The material for the plattform cost 10 dollars IF even that much at all.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> That's what I'm planning to do. Keep on posting about the methods. Those boxes are easy and cheap to build. The beautiful thing is, I can do it correctly, not having to worry about legal issues, where to get the source from, to certify or re-certify and learn on my own terms, time and dime.
> 
> Yeah, I'll probably run into all these issues but that's going to be part of the learning process. So I can educate myself on detection without having to go through all the cadaver hoops.


 
I meant that in a good way We all have to learn and keep learning. This is a good way without all of the pressure.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Let me know how cheaply and easily you can build the boxes. I know folks who did make them decide that buying them already made was worth the expense (about $100 each) ... they look easy enough.
> .


 
sorry about Grim

The thickness, quality, treated vs non etc on the wood will determine the expense. Plexiglass is high. I have also built boxes replacing the plexiglass with the kind of board with the holes in it that you use in the garage for hanging stuff. cannot remember the name. :crazy: stuff is cheap.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

pegboard!! it is pegboard


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> I meant that in a good way We all have to learn and keep learning. This is a good way without all of the pressure.



That's what I thought. I can see the pressure on others that train their first cadaver dog. There is so much more involved. Nala will be doing Area Search on top of that, of course. If it does interfere with Area Search, I'll pull her out of the training and primarily do Nosework. The gain will absolutely make it worth it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Because it's supposed to be a sport for the little man.....


Wow, condescending much?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wow, condescending much?


 Although the legal aspects of this does not apply, the training methods , problems the handlers can encounter etc are the same as with our police k9s,therefore,I think folks who do well at this can feel pretty darn good about it.  I have always thought that some kind of working scent detector dog title would be nice. And who knows where they might eventually take this. No difference in training a dog to find the clove scent and my training my dog to find contraband. Same methods can apply. Like I say, I think it is pretty darn cool and hey, add the remote and carkeys to the dog.....


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

ladylaw203 said:


> yep. the NW1 does not require a traditional final trained response from what I am reading,yet the NW2 does. That would mean many many many more sessions for $ Just sayin. There is no logical reason that I can come up with to train a dog to locate a target odor,be rewarded for same and not simultaneously teach a FTR other than to drag it out. If I am wrong someone enlighten me. If the person wants to carry on to the NW2 title,THEN they must train a definitive FTR. silly. Oh well.
> 
> Mrs.K. yes, this is something you could do without the subsequent liability legally. However, for that to cross over,it must be done correctly. Like I say, folks will get false alerts,dogs fringing, yadda yadda just like we do. Just being a dog in the scent detector dog world


The Nosework sport requires the dog to locate the scent within inches and they are pretty picky about that. If the dog locates the scent in an item for example but gets it on the wrong corner of the item then it is a fail.
The way they have the courses setup I am sure it is partially for non-motivated dogs (the sport was designed for pets with issues) and partially so that they can make $. I found it way too slow for us (and expensive too). They did show some subtleties in the first level such as getting the dog not to ignore corners of rooms etc.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> yep. the NW1 does not require a traditional final trained response from what I am reading,yet the NW2 does. That would mean many many many more sessions for $ Just sayin. There is no logical reason that I can come up with to train a dog to locate a target odor,be rewarded for same and not simultaneously teach a FTR other than to drag it out. If I am wrong someone enlighten me. If the person wants to carry on to the NW2 title,THEN they must train a definitive FTR. silly.


The people who started the sport of K9 Nosework have their system, which does seem like it adds more steps than necessary. But if you want to teach a class and call it K9 Nosework, you have to go through their training and become certified or whatever they call it, and use their system to teach your classes. They are willing to protect their name and training methods with legal action if it comes to that. 

Our trainer doesn't technically teach "K9 Nosework" because, like you, he trained detection dogs professionally and doesn't need their help or their organization. 

We pair the reward (food or toy) and the scent right from the beginning, we initially reward on change of behavior (such as a sudden head turn back towards the source), then a lock on source, and at that point we add the sit. No point in working on the sit until the dog is consistently finding the odor, but once they are, there's no point in waiting further either.

You don't have to have used any particular training method to enter a trial, and our trainer's students typically do extremely well, often testing on all three odors at the same time.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We pair the reward (food or toy) and the scent right from the beginning, we initially reward on change of behavior (such as a sudden head turn back towards the source), then a lock on source, and at that point we add the sit. No point in working on the sit until the dog is consistently finding the odor, but once they are, there's no point in waiting further either.


That sounds like how I first learned to do it. We actually used a clicker to mark recognition, then used blocks, then prompted the indication. Very standard, old school stuff I think. Maybe not the clicker but the approach.

For cadaver work I like the way I have learned more recently (I started Grim this way in 2006) with scented throws, then hides with toys, then primary reward at source because it seems to produce a more independant searching dog. I have been to several seminars where it seems to me dogs started on the blocks seem to look to the handlers for more direction in how to search then those who were hunting for odor from day one.

With him I was not as good with primary reward and saw some of the problems with throwing balls at source [which I did fix by always taking my butt and the toy to source] --


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> With him I was not as good with primary reward and saw some of the problems with throwing balls at source [which I did fix by always taking my butt and the toy to source] --


so you threw the ball from distance when he indicated on the source?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, that is very common but my intent now is to always take the reward TO source and present it at source. If someone can get there to set it out, then I can haul my butt to it to reward...

I did have problems with breaking the stay with the throw and sloppy indications. I got some help with that on obedience stays by learning to throw the ball past the dog not to ever reward between you and the dog or call the dog in for reward. 

But I figure I want that dog to stay with source and, like for a live find dog, his job is to stay there until I get to the hide.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

wow...i was just taking stella to nose work for fun. but sounds pretty serious on here.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

katdog5911 said:


> wow...i was just taking stella to nose work for fun. but sounds pretty serious on here.


Don't let the fun be ruined by us. 

Have fun with it and do it for the fun. I'm just utilizing the sport to learn for Cadaver work and that's the ankle we look at it. It's the very same concept used for drug, bomb, cadaver dogs. But it's hard to get the sources for cadaver and you are always under pressure to certify, do it right etc. 

The sport takes that pressure out of the picture, so yes, it's a lot of fun but it also has a seriousness to it. At least for me


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> The people who started the sport of K9 Nosework have their system, which does seem like it adds more steps than necessary. But if you want to teach a class and call it K9 Nosework, you have to go through their training and become certified or whatever they call it, and use their system to teach your classes. They are willing to protect their name and training methods with legal action if it comes to that.
> 
> Our trainer doesn't technically teach "K9 Nosework" because, like you, he trained detection dogs professionally and doesn't need their help or their organization.
> 
> ...


 

Oh I figured them out. Drag it out, more sessions, more $ . Oh well. Gotta love capitalism. LOL

I have two friends doing the same thing. Are the trials in conjunction with an AKC event or stand alone?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Yes, that is very common but my intent now is to always take the reward TO source and present it at source. If someone can get there to set it out, then I can haul my butt to it to reward...
> 
> I did have problems with breaking the stay with the throw and sloppy indications. I got some help with that on obedience stays by learning to throw the ball past the dog not to ever reward between you and the dog or call the dog in for reward.
> 
> But I figure I want that dog to stay with source and, like for a live find dog, his job is to stay there until I get to the hide.


 
easiest way is to just waltz up to source. PITA but it works.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> easiest way is to just waltz up to source. PITA but it works.


More like trudge through the sucking mud and briars to get to source - not at all graceful  --- when I changed to that approach though committment to source improved considerably.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> But I figure I want that dog to stay with source and, like for a live find dog, his job is to stay there until I get to the hide.


Actually, since the majority does the re-find, the dog leaves the subject to come back to indicate that he has found something and sometimes, if the subject is too far away the dog travels between the subject and the handler to lead the way.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

True - with the refind but the dog ONLY gets the reward when the handler and the dog and the subject are together...That was what I was trying to say. They don't get paid until you get to the location.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> More like trudge through the sucking mud and briars to get to source - not at all graceful  --- when I changed to that approach though committment to source improved considerably.


 
LOLOLOL I know about sucking mud yes, it does. And the other cool part is with a dog totally motivated by his reward,in the real world the handler will not be able to inadvertently pull the dog away from source because the dog is NOT NOT going to leave until that reward is received.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> True - with the refind but the dog ONLY gets the reward when the handler and the dog and the subject are together...That was what I was trying to say. They don't get paid until you get to the location.


 

Yep. And Mrs K. the majority of folks do not necessarily do a refind. Look at FEMA standards . Many of us do not


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> True - with the refind but the dog ONLY gets the reward when the handler and the dog and the subject are together...That was what I was trying to say. They don't get paid until you get to the location.


TRUE!!! Yes, very true. That's how they start pendeling between the subject and the handler. 


@Renee, yes, that is true too. In NY you have to be a fireman or police officer to do FEMA... though. :smirk:


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Just signed up for a 6-week Intro to Nosework class! I guess the odors won't be introduced until the next level class though.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

great!! keep us posted how you like it


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

A friend recently introduced me to it, we'll be meeting next week to go over progress and fix any mishaps. Right now we're just at strengthening the association with the scent rather than the object.
Actually recently made a video, the program made some of the clips overlap so some of them searching was cut out. Nothing serious though. Darn I hate that program! lol





So far it's been a lot of fun.


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## lrandf (Nov 3, 2009)

*NW1 Trial*

We just got back from our first nose work NW1 trial. Unfortunately Nova didn't pass this time but he got 3 out of 4 elements. We went over the 3 minutes time limit on his interior search. It was completely my fault, I was too heavy handed with him and didn't let him work. Actually we didn't search the area where the odor was because I was leading him rather than him leading me. On the positive note, Nova did a wonderful job this past weekend and placed 3rd on vehicle search out of 48 dogs and got himself a really nice ribbon! I was so proud of him. :wub: We are hoping that they'll have more trials on the east coast so we can try again soon. 

One of the most important things I learned from this trial is to trust your dog or his nose and believe in him. Don't be too heavy handed with the leash or follow too closely. Let him do the work and don't try to be a dictator.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

lrandf said:


> We just got back from our first nose work NW1 trial. Unfortunately Nova didn't pass this time but he got 3 out of 4 elements. We went over the 3 minutes time limit on his interior search. It was completely my fault, I was too heavy handed with him and didn't let him work. Actually we didn't search the area where the odor was because I was leading him rather than him leading me. On the positive note, Nova did a wonderful job this past weekend and placed 3rd on vehicle search out of 48 dogs and got himself a really nice ribbon! I was so proud of him. :wub: We are hoping that they'll have more trials on the east coast so we can try again soon.
> 
> One of the most important things I learned from this trial is to trust your dog or his nose and believe in him. Don't be too heavy handed with the leash or follow too closely. Let him do the work and don't try to be a dictator.


 
3rd in the vehicle search is very impressive! Congrats.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Well it's been a year since Stella tried a nose work class, and we are back at it. She is onto odor only after about 4 classes, and has done a car search, and a shed search. She seems to really enjoy it and is getting faster and faster.

My problem is how to determine an alert from her. The instructor doesn't want us to train one right away. She wants us to observe our dog and see what the dog does naturally as an alert. Stella seems to just stop sniffing after she finds the hide. I would like to teach her an alert of some sort. Any suggestions?

This is really a great sport for Stella as she has reactivity issues and here we can just have fun without being on red alert all the time!


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

I attended an Andrew Ramsey nosework seminar a week ago, & had a blast! I enrolled both of my dogs (Alexa-recently adopted 1.5yr old GSD/Mal female & Rory-8 yr old GSD/Lab that I've had since she was 3 months old). 

Both of my dogs did really well & I plan on enrolling them both in a 6 week nosework class through a local dog trainer (who hosted the nosework seminar). I'm in the process of buying a house, so I will wait until we are moved & settled before I enroll them.

I've played the "find it" game with Rory (when I still had Koda), by putting her in the bedroom, & I hide treats in carious places in the living room, then tell them to "find it". It's great fun for them, & Rory being part Lab, *loves* finding the treats. LOL

We ran each dog through a series of searches, starting off really easy, showing the dog where to look, prgressing to moving the target scent further down the set of drawers (same method used in the Leerburg nosework videos-with Andrew Ramsey). Since both of my dogs were new to scentwork, they used treats for them to find. After our lunchbreak, we ran each dog through again, & Andrew started combining the sccent (birch) with the treats, & ended up using just scent & Rory was finding it! I was so proud of her!!

Alexa was excited to "play" the second go around, apparently she decided it was a lot of fun.  She would start off with a pounce, once given the go ahead, it was funny to see.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Andrew Ramsey? 

I'm sooo jealous now!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I saw this thread pop up again and realized I had posted February 2012 about signing up for a Nose Work class. Well, we really liked it and Mikko passed his birch ORT in November and got his NW1 Title on his first try in March!

It's fun being in a sport that GSDs really excel at. There were so many GSDs at the trial- and the #1 overall dog was a GSD. We're usually the only GSD (sometimes one other) at the agility trials we go to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just started with Nikon recently. He did his ORT last weekend and we're trying to enter a trial in June (it's a lottery so I don't know yet).


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Andrew Ramsey?
> 
> I'm sooo jealous now!


 Haha! Yep! I was quite impressed with him! He was so good with the variety of different dog personalities, including some timid ones, & he adjusted the training for the needs of the dog. 
I'm really glad my friend recommended him!
He's coming back to WA sometime, to do more seminars, & I hope to attend one again.


I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I saw this thread pop up again and realized I had posted February 2012 about signing up for a Nose Work class. Well, we really liked it and Mikko passed his birch ORT in November and got his NW1 Title on his first try in March!
> 
> It's fun being in a sport that GSDs really excel at. There were so many GSDs at the trial- and the #1 overall dog was a GSD. We're usually the only GSD (sometimes one other) at the agility trials we go to.


Congrats!! How exciting!!



Liesje said:


> I just started with Nikon recently. He did his ORT last weekend and we're trying to enter a trial in June (it's a lottery so I don't know yet).


 Good luck on your trial!


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

I have enrolled in a class and have started my Shepherd in both Tracking and Nosework. It depends on the command I give her. She does both nose to the ground and air scent. I will be excited to take her to trials--in both!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I know this is an old-ish thread, but wanted to update that Tara passed her birch ORT in January and earned her NW1 title over the weekend at her first trial.  She was pronounced in all four elements and also received the Harry Award (for the rescue dog that shows extraordinary ability and spirit in nose work). I am so proud of her and excited about her future in the sport!

Trial photos are here: Stover Photography


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I found someone about 45 minutes from me that teaches nose work classes. AND found out that there will be a NACSW ORT (all 3 scents) at the dog show in Springfield, MO that I'm entering in November. So, ya, I get to see something new. 


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> I found someone about 45 minutes from me that teaches nose work classes. AND found out that there will be a NACSW ORT (all 3 scents) at the dog show in Springfield, MO that I'm entering in November. So, ya, I get to see something new.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Cool! I might be there - that's the next ORT that's within a reasonable distance from me and Tara needs to test on Anise and Clove still. I'm hoping before a trial in Columbia, MO on November 23.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

That's exciting! I'll look for you there.  I'm showing in conformation (Sage in the classes and Carly in Best of Breed). Can't wait to do other things with them too. 


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

We are currently training and I hope to trial both my guys this year. Our PSA trainer is actually becoming a judge! for the sport which is awesome! She currently trains detection dogs as well. Should be exciting!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Great job Tara! WOW! AWESOME!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks, Elisabeth!


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