# 12 week old puppy killed chicken :(



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Ok, so this happened yesterday. I am raising a German Shepherd puppy, the second in my household- and I knew from the first day she would not have been the dog I'd have chosen personally, but she's the dog I have. I knew from the get go she is stubborn, smart, but pushes limits. Say No--she'll do something you just said no to. Really be serious about it, and she might pause before she still does it. Yell Hey or NO, she stops the behavior. I'm not a yeller though. 

I'm not new at training, I've raised and trained many dogs and horses in my life. This is just a pet bred puppy who I planned to use as my next service dog. But I don't know if she has the ability for restraint that my current adult has, she may never have it. 

Ellie the adult, came as a puppy around this age, 3 months or so. She was told ONCE not to touch my friendly, pet chickens. She's never touched them, has guarded them fiercely and only ever goes after foxes.

Daisy, the puppy, is exactly 3 months old today. Yesterday she went in my barn while I was in the bathroom, grabbed my last buff Silkie hen, and had her dead and was eating her guts by the time I heard the kerfuffle. I first saw her husband Buff Silkie rooster being chased by another, so I went to save him first. Then I spied Daisy and my most lovely dead hen. Yesterday was a very bad day for everyone, including the poor rooster who lost his entire family this summer. I cried all afternoon and Ellie was really upset, probably because I was beside myself.

Now, here's the thing. Even though she's a puppy, she knows no. She knows do not touch the chickens. She has already grabbed that same hen out of the barn once before but got caught in the act and scolded. Yesterday she was sneaky enough to wait till I went to the bathroom in the house, gone no more than 5 mins and she was out front with Ellie, nowhere near the barns. So, she sneaked in, grabbed hen, pulled her out, and then pulled her apart in 5 freaking mins. I was horrifed, for not protecting my hen, I let her down, she's lived here for 5 years with a good dog, and now she died in the mouth of a bratty puppy. All I could think to do was the one thing that I knew might help--I electrified the dead hen via the fencer, and next time she grabbed her, she got a face full of electric chicken. I think she learned that lesson, yet last night when I put her and Ellie out to pee, Daisy got sprayed by a skunk (Ellie didn't, being a wise dog who never repeats a mistake, she was sprayed years ago, she stays away from skunks) --so she's STILL going after things that move. (My poor hen didn't, she was on eggs on her nest on the floor) So, at 5 am, I'm bathing a stinky puppy and ended up leaving her outside tied til my husband got up this am. 

I love this puppy, but if she's a killer, she will not be living here, period. I'm not giving up chickens who've lived their whole lives here in peace, some are over 10-12 years old. She grabbed my oldest hen last week and though she didn't hurt her, as the hen played dead, Snowball died 3 days later (she was 14, so she was on her last summer anyway) Not one is afraid of dogs, so they don't run and trigger her prey drive. And she lives in a house where I let my canaries and finches out to fly around every day, and so far she's never even noticed them particularly. Her crate is literally beside their cages. 

My plan was to let Daisy learn the basics and just be a puppy until I could work more with her without her tangling me up and causing me to fall. Usually I tether to me, but the chicken barns are gross and I do not want any dog going in there for any reason. 

I kept the carcass, gross and sad as it is, and am trying to decide if I should fling her in the direction of the pup and see what her reaction is. But she's a puppy, a very young puppy, and I don't want to screw her up further. Some dogs make terrible farm dogs, but Daisy was born on a farm, raised with parents who are absolutely trustworthy with all the livestock, and they aren't really drive-y, though both are excellent tracking dogs, they guard the baby chicks, literally sit beside the moms and no one is going to touch those babies. I figured she's got the best possible upbringing, yet she still sneaked in a barn and pulled out a chicken and then started eating her. That's pretty serious. 

Oh, and she knows she's in trouble. She was ignored by Ellie all day, it's like Ellie's disappointed in her too. Ellie wouldn't play with her, she growled at her, was just generally unhappy with her. I cannot ignore bad behavior when it comes to other living things, so NILIF isn't something I'm going to learn, can't ignore bad behavior when it comes to creatures I care for. 
Maybe she'll never do it again, but maybe she will, and then what will I do? I can't fence in birds who've lived free their entire existence, protected by a good dog-- and I do know it's extremely hard to stop a behavior like chicken killing once it happens. But again, she's only a very young pup, so is there hope we can get over this? I really can't fence her in, either--99% of the time she's with me, but that 1% and a weak bladder in me, caused the death of a beautiful little hen.


Partial answer to question today--I threw that poor little mangled hen down in front of Daisy, and she literally ran the opposite way. So the electric chicken might just have worked. I really hope so, I have a favourite rooster named Flopsy who is almost as important to me as my dogs, he's a big, sweet Brahma rooster, handraised in the house, a real character.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

I'll note I've had her for 5 weeks now, and she's housebroken-- knows sit, come, heel, down, bed, go pee, and leave it.


----------



## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Alas, this is a mismatch and both you and the puppy will do far better if you find her a good home. She has a strong prey drive, and even if you squelch it now it will very likely fire up again when when she hits adolescence. At which point she will also be a hundred times brattier than she is now.

Where did you get your superdog Ellie? Can you get another puppy from Ellie's breeder?


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Sure, she can learn to leave chickens alone, but are you willing to do what it might take to make her learn? Sounds like a bad match, overall. She might be a better fit for a different home.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> *My plan was to let Daisy learn the basics and just be a puppy until I could work more with her* without her tangling me up and causing me to fall. Usually I tether to me, but the chicken barns are gross and I do not want any dog going in there for any reason.


Effective today, she gets enrolled in farm manners school. You can let a puppy grow up and "just be a puppy" if (and only if) you manage their environment. Some environments are impossible to render safe & sterile (trust me, I know). That's where management comes in.



> *I kept the carcass, gross and sad as it is, and am trying to decide if I should fling her in the direction of the pup and see what her reaction is.* But she's a puppy, a very young puppy, and I don't want to screw her up further. Some dogs make terrible farm dogs, but Daisy was born on a farm, raised with parents who are absolutely trustworthy with all the livestock, and they aren't really drive-y, though both are excellent tracking dogs, they guard the baby chicks, literally sit beside the moms and no one is going to touch those babies. I figured she's got the best possible upbringing, yet she still sneaked in a barn and pulled out a chicken and then started eating her. That's pretty serious.


I truly don't think that does a darn thing.... dogs know the difference between a carcass and a living creature. I would bury the dead chicken and let that be.... 



> Partial answer to question today--I threw that poor little mangled hen down in front of Daisy, and she literally ran the opposite way. So the electric chicken might just have worked. I really hope so, I have a favourite rooster named Flopsy who is almost as important to me as my dogs, he's a big, sweet Brahma rooster, handraised in the house, a real character.


Again, I would bury the carcass and move on, but to each their own.

At 12 weeks, there is a very high likelihood that your puppy is NOT a mindless predatory killing machine. 

More likely just a very young puppy with too much freedom. The majority of herding breed puppies will chase birds if given the chance - it's up to the human to teach the rules, and puppies have to earn the freedom to be loose with other animals.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok, let me start with condolences for the loss of your hen. I also had a pet chicken at one point, and she was killed by one of my dogs. I ultimately rehomed the dog. 

BUT! I had a 4 year old dog who not only killed my hen, but then one of the foster kittens and then a two week old pup. I wanted her euthanized. Someone intervened on her behalf and she was ultimately sent to a home with a middle age couple who's kids were teens and they agreed to no other pets. Ever.

IMO you are asking a lot from a 12 week old pup and to expect her to behave while unsupervised is unreasonable. I am not saying she should have killed the hen. But really? I would almost expect it. They flap and flutter and make funny noises. She's a puppy! They attack blowing leaves for heavens sake.
You said these were "pet bred" pups. So BYB? I have stated before that a pet needs to be MORE well bred then any working dog. They ultimately have more challenging lives then any working dog. You also said that you were seeking a potential service dog. Which begs the question; Why oh why would you risk iffy breeding? Mom might be great, dad might be great, that does NOT mean that that combination of genetics will produce stable pups. It also doesn't mean that mom and/or dad weren't total jerks as youngsters, because most are! I mean come on, we lovingly refer to them as land sharks. We joke about wearing gloves around them. We rip our hair out at their constant, painful, antics.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Do you really think a 3 month old puppy knows and respects ‘no’ and ‘leave it?’ Don’t want to be rude but that’s quite an expectation.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

JonRob said:


> Alas, this is a mismatch and both you and the puppy will do far better if you find her a good home. She has a strong prey drive, and even if you squelch it now it will very likely fire up again when when she hits adolescence. At which point she will also be a hundred times brattier than she is now.
> 
> Where did you get your superdog Ellie? Can you get another puppy from Ellie's breeder?



Nope, they moved back to Germany when they retired.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

ausdland said:


> Do you really think a 3 month old puppy knows and respects ‘no’ and ‘leave it?’ Don’t want to be rude but that’s quite an expectation.



No, I don't. As I said repeatedly, she's a very young pup.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

WIBackpacker said:


> Effective today, she gets enrolled in farm manners school. You can let a puppy grow up and "just be a puppy" if (and only if) you manage their environment. Some environments are impossible to render safe & sterile (trust me, I know). That's where management comes in.
> I truly don't think that does a darn thing.... dogs know the difference between a carcass and a living creature. I would bury the dead chicken and let that be....
> Again, I would bury the carcass and move on, but to each their own.
> At 12 weeks, there is a very high likelihood that your puppy is NOT a mindless predatory killing machine.
> More likely just a very young puppy with too much freedom. The majority of herding breed puppies will chase birds if given the chance - it's up to the human to teach the rules, and puppies have to earn the freedom to be loose with other animals.



It was entirely my fault for assuming she'd "be ok" with Ellie while I went to the bathroom. I am responsible for the death of the hen, not Daisy--she's a puppy and very young, they bite stuff. But she does know that's not cool. I buried the hen while everyone was apparently advising me we are mismatched.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Ok, let me start with condolences for the loss of your hen. I also had a pet chicken at one point, and she was killed by one of my dogs. I ultimately rehomed the dog.
> 
> BUT! I had a 4 year old dog who not only killed my hen, but then one of the foster kittens and then a two week old pup. I wanted her euthanized. Someone intervened on her behalf and she was ultimately sent to a home with a middle age couple who's kids were teens and they agreed to no other pets. Ever.
> 
> ...



I guess Sabis Mom by PET bred I mean they are "just" German Shepherds, not show line or working line, she breeds one litter a year. Nice dogs, good manners, smart, I know the parent dogs really well. But probably would not have been my first choice if we actually had decent breeders within 4 provinces, I'd have had another Ellie if I could.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Saco said:


> Sure, she can learn to leave chickens alone, but are you willing to do what it might take to make her learn? Sounds like a bad match, overall. She might be a better fit for a different home.



And you know this from this one post? Not my first dog or rodeo. She's a PUPPY, she's going to do stupid things and make mistakes. I'm upset because it was MY fault for leaving her for 5 mins. Will I do it again? Nope I will not. She'll be velcro to me.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> I guess Sabis Mom by PET bred I mean they are "just" German Shepherds, not show line or working line, she breeds one litter a year. Nice dogs, good manners, smart, I know the parent dogs really well. But probably would not have been my first choice if we actually had decent breeders within 4 provinces, I'd have had another Ellie if I could.


Where are you located? And where did you get little Miss Sassy Pants from? PM me if you prefer.

I know where Sabi actually came from, and I know someone who got a pup from a later litter. She was a total disaster! All of Sabs siblings were disasters. I got lucky. I know it and I will never risk it again.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

JonRob said:


> Alas, this is a mismatch and both you and the puppy will do far better if you find her a good home. She has a strong prey drive, and even if you squelch it now it will very likely fire up again when when she hits adolescence. At which point she will also be a hundred times brattier than she is now.
> 
> Where did you get your superdog Ellie? Can you get another puppy from Ellie's breeder?



I seldom know JonRob if you are being snarky or serious or both. Ellie is a superdog, thanks, and I made her that way with training. She just has more sense, she acted older when she came. Daisy's not a lost cause at 12 weeks old, and I'm not about to send her off into the ether sphere for MY wrong. I F'ed up by leaving her. But will she be reliable to watch my flock? Nope, never. Will she be a good service dog? Maybe she will work, ask me in a year.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

She needs to be managed 100% - never allow her to be in a situation where something could go wrong. Simple, but very hard to follow. You need to be very disciplined.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Where are you located? And where did you get little Miss Sassy Pants from? PM me if you prefer.
> 
> I know where Sabi actually came from, and I know someone who got a pup from a later litter. She was a total disaster! All of Sabs siblings were disasters. I got lucky. I know it and I will never risk it again.



I'm in NS. No breeders of quality here anymore except roach backs. None in NB either except 2 puppy mills I know of. PEI? Nada. No way of knowing what you are getting, until you get it. Probably the same in Newf. I have the puppy I have, I now have a chicken killing puppy on a farm full of birds, but she's young, she will learn. We stopped Happy when he was a bit older than her, I got him into digging up rats, and never in 12 years did he ever touch anything that wasn't a rat. 



I'll take the hit for messingup. I mostly feel guilty for letting down a hen who thought she was safe in her barn.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Chuck94! said:


> She needs to be managed 100% - never allow her to be in a situation where something could go wrong. Simple, but very hard to follow. You need to be very disciplined.



It's really not that hard. I just have to tether her to me and when I go to the BR, she gets a trip in too. She's with me 99% of the time but occasionally I do need to pee.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I think it would be jumping the gun (big time) to dismiss/rehome a 12 week old GSD puppy solely due to one off-leash chicken accident. JMO. 

Some dogs have an innate understanding that small animals aren't for chasing, but the vast majority *in this breed* need to be taught. And that doesn't mean they need harsh punishment or extreme methods - just clarity, plus management during the learning stage.

ETA: I wish Photobucket hadn't gone the way of the Dodo, I had a long thread years back re: livestock manners on a puppy, but unfortunately without the photos it doesn't make much sense.


----------



## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I was expecting to read a really sad story because all I saw on the side where it says "Recent Discussions" is 12 week old puppy killed. I thought maybe your pup was killed by another dog or by a coyote or something. Then when I clicked on the link, I saw the rest of the title...and I said, "phew."

You said, "I F'ed up by leaving her." Don't worry, I've said that a couple times too. Last year, I didn't watch mine for 15 mins because I thought he was napping. (He was a few months old at that time.) Found him eating his paracord leash. Rushed him to the hospital (because I called emergency hospital and they told me to), they induced vomiting and out came more than a foot of the double ply paracord leash. If I waited and it passed from his stomach to the intestines, it probably would've clogged up his system and then we would be talking about thousands of dollars worth of surgery.

About 2 weeks after that, I came home to him eating his crate pad. A good portion of it was missing. So, I again took him to the hospital. Same deal. You wouldn't believe the amount of foam and cloth that came out of that little pup.

From these 2 incidents, I learned to keep an eye on him at all times and to keep his crate empty of anything...no toys, no pads, etc. Just like you said....it was "MY wrong."

Now, a year later, I can laugh at my stupidity and the experiences we had....as I'm sure you will too.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Maybe I came across as harsh. Having never laid eyes on this pup I can't judge anything at all, really. I read about electrifying the chicken and it sounded rather vindictive and made me think maybe it's a bad fit. I get it, for sure, the anger and loss, but this was just a pup being a pup - the predatory animal she is... and doesn't know better at 12 weeks. 

I fence in my hens and the dogs aren't free roaming with them. Free range hens here wouldn't last long with the wildlife. So maybe someone with more experience training a young pup to leave chickens alone can offer better advice.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> I'm in NS. No breeders of quality here anymore except roach backs. None in NB either except 2 puppy mills I know of. PEI? Nada. No way of knowing what you are getting, until you get it. Probably the same in Newf. I have the puppy I have, I now have a chicken killing puppy on a farm full of birds, but she's young, she will learn. We stopped Happy when he was a bit older than her, I got him into digging up rats, and never in 12 years did he ever touch anything that wasn't a rat.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take the hit for messing up. I mostly feel guilty for letting down a hen who thought she was safe in her barn.


I'm from NS, miss it terribly. Grew up in Dartmouth-will always be Dartmouth no matter what the HRM says, lol.

I do get where you are coming from, there never have been many breeders in the Maritimes. Of any breed. Oddly even most of the Toller breeders are now in ON or BC.

I don't think your pups a killer, I think she just needs management and time. As she ages you will be able to instill the lessons in proper behavior. Her service work will eventually keep her out of trouble as her mind will be occupied. 
A very wise man once told me that when selecting work prospects I should look for the one that had more attitude, because you can train it down but you can't train it up.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

WIBackpacker said:


> I think it would be jumping the gun (big time) to dismiss/rehome a 12 week old GSD puppy solely due to one off-leash chicken accident. JMO.
> 
> Some dogs have an innate understanding that small animals aren't for chasing, but the vast majority *in this breed* need to be taught. And that doesn't mean they need harsh punishment or extreme methods - just clarity, plus management during the learning stage.
> 
> ETA: I wish Photobucket hadn't gone the way of the Dodo, I had a long thread years back re: livestock manners on a puppy, but unfortunately without the photos it doesn't make much sense.



Appreciate it, WIbackpacker and I agree. Just because she's been here for 5 weeks doesn't mean she's not going to screw up,(She's a puppy!) or that I should give her up--she's part of our family. I will just never give her another opportunity to score those prey points--one mistake is a mistake. I probably should NEVER have posted, because I knew I'd get the REHOME/you're-a-bad-owner/rehome or else argument, but I'm 55 not 19, and I can train my dogs. I expect her to learn this lesson, and I expect ME to never make the mistake of leaving her alone again. 



It's chore-time in NS folks, gotta go to the barns.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeeeppers...she's just a baby that needs training. I doubt she even meant to kill the chicken. I don't think she needs to be rehomed. Just teach her the chickens are not squeaky toys. Every puppy I've had will chase prey. You just teach them not to. It's not brain surgery. 

OP - you got this under control. I'm sure you'll teach her right from wrong.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I agree with WB, too soon to say she's a hard wired chicken killer. The flailing chickens do is a very attractive draw for a curious pup. My girls are bybs from a farm, have higher than average prey drive, and would chase critters if allowed. Training and management will go along ways, but so will the bond and working relationship that develops with time.

We are new to chickens and only started our small flock this spring. Zoey follows me everywhere including the chicken yard and I know she would love to chase them, but has refrained for the most part. I've had to use a few verbal corrections so far, but she is coming around to understand that like our cat or the critters we encounter on hikes she is not to chase.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My 2c: don't overly romanticize your "good" dog. And FYI I have done it too and been called on it, and I appreciated it so not saying like I've never done it.

The other one, I think you know what you need to do.. maybe you just didn't fill in the blanks in your head quite enough. Like, you say she knows leave it and no and not to bite (my loose paraphrase). But the blanks I mean is all the tiny steps in between the initial leave it, on a leash, at a distance of ten feet, to leave it, off a leash, at a distance of 3 feet. There is no way a baby this age is finished, proofed around livestock. Esp chickens. They are so easy to kill.

Predatory behavior CAN be the end of the road for a service dog. But I had a prospect once that I continued to work with after she had also killed a hen. We were gone for the day and my step saughter was supposed to be taking care of things. She turned the dog out on the farm (outside a fenced yard) so she didn't have to deal with her. After who nnows how long the dog found and killed a hen. I was furious to say the least. It never would have or had to happen with proper supervision and training.

That's what it boils down to, constant supervision with the ability to follow thru, meaning maybe pup is on a long line you hold so if she fails a command you can follow thru immediately.

You listed some other behaviors this puppy did that were lead ups to the kill. Those, and any interest at all, should be corrected immediately.

I had another dog who was a super killer, would kill animals larger than himself (75lb dog), down to the smallest. And with e collar training and vigilance he had a great and safe life on the farm with a herd of dwarf dairy goats. He trained for the day they would break out and pop up in his face, because that's what goats do. That day came twice, with kids no less, and he stood down. No attack. He was able to walk thru the pasture with the adults with me off leash by the end. 

Two different dogs of mine I mentioned her, the super killer was absolutely not a service dog prospect and no dog with that kind of desire and follow thru should ever be.

The other one was not unmanageable or dangerous she was just left totally unsupervised for a day with loose chickens and the inevitable happened.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I also think it's awfully hasty to say rehome the pup because she killed a chicken. OP, if you do the work you can absolutely make her a pet who is safe with you on the farm. If you want to continue to leave her unsupervised then she will certainly continue to kill. But I think you said you understood you can't do that. 

And she may have to be on a long line too. I don't know how big your property is but even in sight a dog can kill a chicken before you can stop them if they are not on a leash.

Don't underestimate how rewarding that experience can be for a dog, and how much they will try to do it again, and the puppy MAY have already put it together that she can only play with chickens when you aren't looking which makes her a little more difficult to deal with


----------



## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

cvamoca said:


> I seldom know JonRob if you are being snarky or serious or both. Ellie is a superdog, thanks, and I made her that way with training. She just has more sense, she acted older when she came. Daisy's not a lost cause at 12 weeks old, and I'm not about to send her off into the ether sphere for MY wrong.


 No snarkiness here at all. Ellie is indeed a superdog. My rehome recommendation was based on your description of what you wanted and got with Ellie--an extremely biddable dog from a very young age:



cvamoca said:


> Ellie the adult, came as a puppy around this age, 3 months or so. She was told ONCE not to touch my friendly, pet chickens. She's never touched them, has guarded them fiercely and only ever goes after foxes.


and your description of what you got with this puppy--a far more typical puppy:



cvamoca said:


> I am raising a German Shepherd puppy, the second in my household- and I knew from the first day she would not have been the dog I'd have chosen personally, but she's the dog I have. I knew from the get go she is stubborn, smart, but pushes limits. Say No--she'll do something you just said no to. Really be serious about it, and she might pause before she still does it. Yell Hey or NO, she stops the behavior. I'm not a yeller though.
> 
> I love this puppy, but if she's a killer, she will not be living here, period. I'm not giving up chickens who've lived their whole lives here in peace, some are over 10-12 years old. She grabbed my oldest hen last week and though she didn't hurt her, as the hen played dead, Snowball died 3 days later (she was 14, so she was on her last summer anyway)


When I read your post, you struck me as an older, experienced dog person who knows what she wants in a dog, and this is obviously a good thing. If this is unlikely to work out with the puppy, she has a far better chance of finding a great new home at this cute age than she does as a rowdy, bratty, gangly adolescent. The problem would be finding a really biddable GSD, as this admirable trait has been largely bred out of GSDs.

BTW, I am truly sorry for the loss of your chickens. One of my neighbors has chickens that are very sweet and I would become quite attached to them if they were mine.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Lyka herds chickens. Crios kills chickens. I found this out the hard way. I thought if I had any dog to worry about around the chickens, it would be Lyka. Crios is a goofy happy go lucky play with everything and everyone kind of dog. Lyka had already been proofed before I got Crios. I got him at 9 months, took him to the farm at a little over 10 months. Our chickens on the farm free range on one side of the acreage, and Lyka loves herding them into their coop at night. I figured Crios would have fun with the herding too. My mistake, he killed 3 before I could call him off. His prey drive is through the roof, and I should have realized this before I sent him out into a field of chickens. I beat myself up pretty good over that, and I’m not attached to my chickens. They are just egg bearers for me. 

It must have been so heartbreaking to lose a hen you truly loved. I have no advice, I just keep Crios out of the fields when we are on the farm, he is only good around the large animals (horses specifically). Just wanted to let you know you’re not alone, we’ve all made mistakes with our dogs that cost us something, whether that be monetary or personal. It took me a good bit of time to not look at Crios with disgust. So even if you are mad at the pup, it’s understandable, and does eventually go away. I was more mad at myself, and that hasn’t so much gone away yet. 

I hope you have success in the future with your pup and ?. I never tried to get Crios used to them without killing them, because I didn’t need him to follow me. I hope it can be done for you sake. My condolences on the loss of your hen.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm from NS, miss it terribly. Grew up in Dartmouth-will always be Dartmouth no matter what the HRM says, lol.
> 
> I do get where you are coming from, there never have been many breeders in the Maritimes. Of any breed. Oddly even most of the Toller breeders are now in ON or BC.
> 
> ...



OMG, how small the world is! I lived in Dartmouth from the time I was 18 all during my career. Dartmouth was where I did all the best of my fun stuff! It will always be Dartmouth, not HRM to me, too. (I'm from Shubie)

Every single dog is an individual, and every owner is different. I do take my job seriously, though. I hope to have 10 years or more with her, same as Ellie, and 12 for Happy. 

We've always had an older, wise" dog who would help to teach our "new" dog. They do help with all the hard stuff for us, the behavior stuff for instance. 
Housebreaking, really helps having an older dog lead by example. 

Daisy's a great all around puppy. Very friendly and social. She was probably the most outgoing in her litter, her tail always wags, and she's always happy to meet new people, unlike Ellie who was way more fearful, has always been shy with strangers- but in a tune-them-out kind of way. Daisy loves everyone, all the time. 

We'll get through this- I'm asking a lot of a puppy, 
She is whip smart, puppies are like sponges at this age, so she will learn from this. I do a lot of work with her off and on leash many times daily. She's only crated when hubby leaves for work or if I have to leave on an errand, otherwise she's allowed free rein in the house.

Most of my chickens are literally on the doorstep almost every sunny day. The puppy and I go out every 2 hours like clockwork, and she's been excellent until this past week. The other birds are large, and I don't think she'll go after them, she "knows" them. 

And you know what? Ellie has a beige squeaky long fox toy that Daisy took the squeaker out of (she did that in her litter, too- I visited them from week 4 onward) and Daisy absolutely loves those toys. My poor Buff Silkies absolutely resemble those toys. Very much. Right down to losing the squeaker. 


The good news is there's no one else in the barns that Daisy can reach, they all roost over her head, now. Gave the poor rooster to a place he'll again have more buff Silkie girls. The hen I lost was gorgeous though and a good mother. I'll miss them they were a project for years.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dated a guy from Shubie when I was a kid, creeping up on 50 now! Older brothers all paddled, spent a ton of time on the lake. Dartmouth was a great place to be a kid, although I did not have a great childhood. 
Anyway, puppies will be puppies. Shadow used to disembowel stuffies. Always had to remove the squeakers and it was a bit creepy to watch her feel around with her teeth and then tear open just the right spot. I was always afraid of the damage she could do to a small animal. 
I don't really think it will prove to be an issue. She sounds like a really fun pup and you seem to have a plan. I know back in the day chicken killers met rough ends but I like to think we have evolved.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A reason to rehome would be if you hated her for killing the chicken and couldn’t ever forget. It sounds like you are upset or sad, but don’t blame her. Another would be if you couldn’t train her. Neither seems to be a problem. So, train her or find a trainer to help you. I’ve never heard of farm manners but it sounds like a good idea.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Sorry for you loss. That is really sad. I am new to chickens, just started my flock in May, so I don't have any advice, but I'm wishing you and Daisy the best. I'd be interested in updates. So far our GSDs have shown interest but not a lot of predatory behavior around our pullets. They are seperated by chain link though. I haven't done a lot of training with the dogs and the chickens yet because it's been so oppressively hot and humid even after the sun goes down. I'm going to get around to it though just in case there are accidental encounters someday.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

JonRob said:


> No snarkiness here at all. Ellie is indeed a superdog. My rehome recommendation was based on your description of what you wanted and got with Ellie--an extremely biddable dog from a very young age:
> 
> and your description of what you got with this puppy--a far more typical puppy:
> 
> ...



Thanks JonRob, I appreciate your taking the time to thoroughly explain. I absolutely adore chickens, my big Brahma Flopsy, I would lose my mind if he got killed. But he's smart enough to have a tough guy appearance. (He's a sweet dork who burbles to me and drops food like I'm his hen) 



Seriously, Ellie is an amazing dog, a dog who has never done a single bad thing. She just knows things, almost by osmosis. No puppy is ever going to measure up to her, unless it was...her, again. They only come around once in a lifetime, though.


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

cvamoca said:


> It's really not that hard. I just have to tether her to me and when I go to the BR, she gets a trip in too. She's with me 99% of the time but occasionally I do need to pee.


Yes & when that happens you need to put her in her kennel


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

cvamoca said:


> Thanks JonRob, I appreciate your taking the time to thoroughly explain. I absolutely adore chickens, my big Brahma Flopsy, I would lose my mind if he got killed. But he's smart enough to have a tough guy appearance. (He's a sweet dork who burbles to me and drops food like I'm his hen)
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, Ellie is an amazing dog, a dog who has never done a single bad thing. She just knows things, almost by osmosis. No puppy is ever going to measure up to her, unless it was...her, again. They only come around once in a lifetime, though.


Yep everyone of us has our "heart dog" - Rollo is mine


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> Lyka herds chickens. Crios kills chickens. I found this out the hard way. I thought if I had any dog to worry about around the chickens, it would be Lyka. Crios is a goofy happy go lucky play with everything and everyone kind of dog. Lyka had already been proofed before I got Crios. I got him at 9 months, took him to the farm at a little over 10 months. Our chickens on the farm free range on one side of the acreage, and Lyka loves herding them into their coop at night. I figured Crios would have fun with the herding too. My mistake, he killed 3 before I could call him off. His prey drive is through the roof, and I should have realized this before I sent him out into a field of chickens. I beat myself up pretty good over that, and I’m not attached to my chickens. They are just egg bearers for me.
> 
> It must have been so heartbreaking to lose a hen you truly loved. I have no advice, I just keep Crios out of the fields when we are on the farm, he is only good around the large animals (horses specifically). Just wanted to let you know you’re not alone, we’ve all made mistakes with our dogs that cost us something, whether that be monetary or personal. It took me a good bit of time to not look at Crios with disgust. So even if you are mad at the pup, it’s understandable, and does eventually go away. I was more mad at myself, and that hasn’t so much gone away yet.
> 
> I hope you have success in the future with your pup and ?. I never tried to get Crios used to them without killing them, because I didn’t need him to follow me. I hope it can be done for you sake. My condolences on the loss of your hen.


We'll get through it, my husband always says "It's peace and love here" to the dogs, it's peace and love. 

Course, he is not a chicken lady, and one less to him means we're one bird closer to his happy, theoretical "40", chickens. 

She was a fierce little hen, and beautiful and soft, and if there had been chicks this year she'd have probably properly flogged Daisy and Daisy would not like to repeat being flogged by a very angry ball of bantam hen. 

I'm sorry I let her down, sorry I let them both down. Hopefully that's the last time.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Please don't beat yourself up! Sorry for your loss, people who have had pet chickens understand, people who haven't probably never will...

I grew up on a farm and we always had chickens, as did all our neighbors. Most of the time, a chicken killing dog would always remain a chicken killing dog. So, I was a bit skeptical that you'd have a chance at breaking your pup of this. But your electrifying the carcass was actually a brilliant move IMHO, and it very well may have solved your problem, with diligence and management of course in the future. I hope, for your sake and the dog's it worked. Best of luck, and again, stop beating yourself up!


----------



## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

Don't do anything rash with the pup. Use a long line and just say 'leave it' when you feel it's right. The pup will learn and maybe even become a protector; more so if it's with you when you feed, water, collect eggs.

Just be watchful.

Just saying, we have free range chickens and Saint is often off leash among them. He knows the chickens are important to us so he tolerates them.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My (adult 60 lb) mutt dog was instantly cured of chasing chickens when I put him on a long leash and re-introduced him to the flock after getting a strong rooster. He didn't even dare to run by pullets after that.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> My (adult 60 lb) mutt dog was instantly cured of chasing chickens when I put him on a long leash and re-introduced him to the flock after getting a strong rooster. He didn't even dare to run by pullets after that.



My roosters are sweet mushballs, though usually the Police Geese keep Ellie on her toes and away from the flock. However, for some reason, Daisy is their Krytonite. They'll sneak up to Ellie from behind and pull her big coyote-like tail, but Daisy they are semi afraid of. She usually just sits and looks at their hissing, snakey necks. Maybe it's because right now she's mostly black, doesn't look like a coyote...I don't know what's in the minds of the geese. In this picture, Ellie's hiding inside the first door, and Daisy has decided to join her. The geese are giving her grief.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

1. I'm pretty sure my pup (9 months now) would have killed a chicken if he got the chance. Predator.
2. I'm not sure a 12-week old pup knows what "no" means, even if they know "sit," "down," and are potty-trained. They might get scared when someone yells NO!!! at them, though.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

CactusWren said:


> 1. I'm pretty sure my pup (9 months now) would have killed a chicken if he got the chance. Predator.
> 2. I'm not sure a 12-week old pup knows what "no" means, even if they know "sit," "down," and are potty-trained. They might get scared when someone yells NO!!! at them, though.


At that age they can only be a pup. We ask way too much from them.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, I have no advice to offer. I just want to tell you how sorry I am about your hen. We get so attached to our pets - even the small, unusual, unique ones. It hurts. I have confidence you can get this figured out.

Please don't beat yourself up. It was a tragic accident. Stuff happens - really fast.

HUGS!


----------



## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

Are you serious? You let a 12 week old puppy run around on their own and you are mad because she killed a chicken? I couldn't even finish reading....She's a PUPPY. She's a BABY. You have unreasonable expectations for a 12 week old puppy. Maybe you should re-home her.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

crittersitter said:


> Are you serious? You let a 12 week old puppy run around on their own and you are mad because she killed a chicken? I couldn't even finish reading....She's a PUPPY. She's a BABY. You have unreasonable expectations for a 12 week old puppy. Maybe you should re-home her.


I think (know) this might be a bite harsh. Maybe you should have taken the time to read the entire post. She knows it was her fault. She had to run in for a bathroom break, and her chickens are free range on the property. 

We’ve ALL made a dumb mistake or 20 with our dogs. We are all flawed. Because we are human. And humans were never meant to be perfect. No need to beat her up more than she’s already beat herself up over it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you need a bathroom break, put the pup in a crate. Don't even try to take him with you.....


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

crittersitter said:


> Are you serious? You let a 12 week old puppy run around on their own and you are mad because she killed a chicken? I couldn't even finish reading....She's a PUPPY. She's a BABY. You have unreasonable expectations for a 12 week old puppy. Maybe you should re-home her.



Maybe you should READ the entire thread, you know--like all the words, before you post? 

I know it's my fault, thanks. And no she's not going anywhere. I don't give up on things just because it's hard. I left her alone with my other dog, I accept responsibility.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

CactusWren said:


> 1. I'm pretty sure my pup (9 months now) would have killed a chicken if he got the chance. Predator.
> 2. I'm not sure a 12-week old pup knows what "no" means, even if they know "sit," "down," and are potty-trained. They might get scared when someone yells NO!!! at them, though.


See below. (or above. Previous posts) 

I have always used marker words like Yes/Good! and ACK/no to mark something or to interupt something. They "get" our tone of voice even if they don't get the words themselves. Plus, I was crying, Ellie was upset, the puppy knew things were not right in her usually happy puppy world. She's a smart puppy, smarter than Ellie was at that age, really quick to catch on thing

I think she'll leave the chickens the heck alone, after that.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cvamoca said:


> See below. (or above. Previous posts)
> 
> I have always used marker words like Yes/Good! and ACK/no to mark something or to interupt something. They "get" our tone of voice even if they don't get the words themselves. Plus, I was crying, Ellie was upset, the puppy knew things were not right in her usually happy puppy world. She's a smart puppy, smarter than Ellie was at that age, really quick to catch on thing
> 
> ...


----------



## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

When I was little early 70s we had sled dogs (Huskies) we went on a vacation to Yellow Stone we had people take care of the dogs while we were gone they didn't do a good job we had a farm over 300 chickens, when we were driving up the long drive we could see chickens half barried all over,the dogs had dug out and killed almost every chicken. My dad took the dogs and shot them all I tried holding them back I couldn't some 49 years later it stills bothers me greatly I would have rather had those dogs than a million chickens that's me I know people have all kinds of pets and love them like children so I am truly sorry for your loss but a dogs love and devotion is powerful and healing love don't give up on them


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Luke, that is a terrible story. I have one old sled dog (Alaskan husky) and he's now 11. He'll kill a chicken as quick as thinking so he is kept separated. Really hard to train a husky not to kill chickens. It wasn't that the dogs were bad, it's what huskies do (they are not the easiest pets). The fault lies firmly with the humans involved. 

Very sad story. Wish I hadn't heard it.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> When I was little early 70s we had sled dogs (Huskies) we went on a vacation to Yellow Stone we had people take care of the dogs while we were gone they didn't do a good job we had a farm over 300 chickens, when we were driving up the long drive we could see chickens half barried all over,the dogs had dug out and killed almost every chicken. My dad took the dogs and shot them all I tried holding them back I couldn't some 49 years later it stills bothers me greatly I would have rather had those dogs than a million chickens that's me I know people have all kinds of pets and love them like children so I am truly sorry for your loss but a dogs love and devotion is powerful and healing love don't give up on them


That must have been really traumatizing. I'm sad that happened to the chickens, the dogs, and to you. I'd be furious at the people who were supposed to be taking care of the animals. Ughhh. How awful.


----------



## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

Ya animals pets it didn't matter he had no problem killing them I think it was the way he was raised I would like to hear how the Ops puppy is doing


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Spaces, spaces, why you always creat too many spaces?


Thecowboysgirl said:


> cvamoca said:
> 
> 
> > See below. (or above. Previous posts)
> ...


----------



## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

I read enough, believe me (10 paragraphs was way more than needed). You started out with it's not the dog you wanted...Your other dog was perfect...You have unreasonable expectations of this puppy.


----------



## shebasdad (Oct 16, 2018)

This has got to be a prank. Right?


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

crittersitter said:


> I read enough, believe me (10 paragraphs was way more than needed). You started out with it's not the dog you wanted...Your other dog was perfect...You have unreasonable expectations of this puppy.


 I wish to **** I could delete the whole thread, but I can't. It was stupid to air it here.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cvamoca said:


> I wish to **** I could delete the whole thread, but I can't. It was stupid to air it here.


I'm sorry you lost a chicken that way, but overall, I don't see this as any great failure on your part. We all at some point go through that its a different dog lesson. My 2nd Rott taught us. I have 2 shepherds now because the older one disappointed me and wasn't the dog I wanted. We still love him. 

Now that you've hopefully made the correct association in her mind as far as biting chickens, I'd put some time into very deliberately teaching her how to behave correctly around them.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> I wish to **** I could delete the whole thread, but I can't. It was stupid to air it here.


No you weren't. It always helps to talk through things, plus some of us understand your grief.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cvamoca said:


> I wish to **** I could delete the whole thread, but I can't. It was stupid to air it here.


Threads can take off in a number of directions, with a variety of opinions, not all will see the story through the same lens. I see someone who's adult GSD has been an easy keeper and got a pup from a sire/dam that appeared similar in temperament. They took what appeared to be a very low risk gamble based on previous puppy experience and learned a hard lesson. Folks have taken similar risks and may have gotten away with it or only had minor repercussions. People can also become distracted and unintentionally do the same thing. Crap happens to the best of us.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, LOVE the picture of Daisy and Ellie. They are gorgeous! BTW, I am glad you started this thread. I have learned things. I hope it also helped you to get perspective and think things through.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm glad you started your thread and I'm sorry you lost your favorite hen. I've only had my pullets a few months, but I'd feel terrible to lose one this way. It's a good reminder for all of us to be careful when we have other pets and livestock in our houses and property. I hope you continue to share with us.


----------



## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

shebasdad said:


> This has got to be a prank. Right?


Heh.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

*12 week old puppy killed chicken *

Sorry for you loss and situation OP. I’m sure all this hindsight feedback is not helpful as you know what you should have and should not have done. 

I guess my only comments are she might not be the mean viscous dog you kind of portrayed. She’s a puppy. I have an 11 week old one right now. I could see him thinking it was a live squeaky toy like all his others just more fun because it runs away and can be chased. You also seem to think a 12 week old puppy should know better. Not going to happen. 

Don’t give up on her. You seem to know dogs, pups and nature but at the same time you seem naive with regard to what happened and determining this dog is bad and not for you. 

Good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Sorry for you loss and situation OP. I’m sure all this hindsight feedback is not helpful as you know what you should have and should not have done.
> 
> I* guess my only comments are she might not be the mean viscous dog you kind of portrayed. *She’s a puppy. I have an 11 week old one right now. I could see him thinking it was a live squeaky toy like all his others just more fun because it runs away and can be chased. You also seem to think a 12 week old puppy should know better. Not going to happen.
> 
> ...


 Honestly, I don't think I've ever portrayed her as mean or vicious, ever. She's not in the least bit mean, she's a very sweet and very friendly puppy. Way friendlier than Ellie, and far more outgoing. I just have to keep her mind engaged. 

This entire week we've worked in front of the chickens, and around that barn specifically, just doing sit/stay, downs, etc. So, she's way farther along working among HUGE distractions than most people's dogs ever are. Most people's dogs would kill a chicken if they could. 
She's been fantastic. Doesn't even see the chickens around her, including 2 half grown chicks. She's a good puppy, with that one problem which hopefully will never be repeated.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> *
> This entire week we've worked in front of the chickens, and around that barn specifically, just doing sit/stay, downs, etc. * So, she's way farther along working among HUGE distractions than most people's dogs ever are. Most people's dogs would kill a chicken if they could.


Good to hear! 

Verbal control is so necessary, especially for those of us whose households include residents that are lower on the food chain.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 13, 2017)

Wow. Did this post bring back a sad memory or what? My dog Rego is now 1.5 yrs old. When he was just under a year, I went hiking with him. I made the bonehead error of letting him be off leash before he could be fully trusted (LOL, I still do not fully trust him!). Anyway, my wife and I were out in the forest with him. We had just got done working his fluffy little @$$ off and he was tired! As we were walking back to our home, a tiny fawn jumped out in front of us. Rego obviously re-gained his strength back and took chase, fast! I’m watching, my wife is screaming. As I am watching I am thinking he will never catch that fawn, meanwhile he is getting closer and closer and the little fawn is growing tired. Rego closed in and grabbed the fawn by its neck. The fawns mother appears, super pissed off. Rego takes chase on her, dropping the little fawn, who is still alive. Now I’m thinking, oh ****! If he tangles with mom, she will surely kill my dog. My wife takes off after the dog and doe of course never being able to catch them, they were gone. I return to where he left the little fawn and I am crying. I think I have lost my dog in the forest and here is this little fawn. I carry a .38 with me when I hike in the forest. I know I do not have to tell you what I had to do for this fawns sake. Then I go help my wife look for my dog, who eventually comes out of the forest and dragging toward us. I was not mad at my dog, but I was scared. Do I have a little killer on my hands? My wife hated the dog for months. I think she is over it now, but still... I call my breeder, and i am very upset (with myself). The breeder said don’t worry. He was just being a dog who was left to his own devices. My wife is terrified because we have a cat. Will my dog kill the cat? Fast forward to now. He is a yr and a half. The cat stands up to him and there is no problem. He is a good dog and I don’t worry about him being a “killer” any more. For us, it was an isolated incident, and I feel he was just being an immature pup. Give your pup another chance. I am sorry for your loss, but like you said, it is up to us to supervise.


----------



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> Wow. Did this post bring back a sad memory or what? My dog Rego is now 1.5 yrs old. When he was just under a year, I went hiking with him. I made the bonehead error of letting him be off leash before he could be fully trusted (LOL, I still do not fully trust him!). Anyway, my wife and I were out in the forest with him. We had just got done working his fluffy little @$$ off and he was tired! As we were walking back to our home, a tiny fawn jumped out in front of us. Rego obviously re-gained his strength back and took chase, fast! I’m watching, my wife is screaming. As I am watching I am thinking he will never catch that fawn, meanwhile he is getting closer and closer and the little fawn is growing tired. Rego closed in and grabbed the fawn by its neck. The fawns mother appears, super pissed off. Rego takes chase on her, dropping the little fawn, who is still alive. Now I’m thinking, oh ****! If he tangles with mom, she will surely kill my dog. My wife takes off after the dog and doe of course never being able to catch them, they were gone. I return to where he left the little fawn and I am crying. I think I have lost my dog in the forest and here is this little fawn. I carry a .38 with me when I hike in the forest. I know I do not have to tell you what I had to do for this fawns sake. Then I go help my wife look for my dog, who eventually comes out of the forest and dragging toward us. I was not mad at my dog, but I was scared. Do I have a little killer on my hands? My wife hated the dog for months. I think she is over it now, but still... I call my breeder, and i am very upset (with myself). The breeder said don’t worry. He was just being a dog who was left to his own devices. My wife is terrified because we have a cat. Will my dog kill the cat? Fast forward to now. He is a yr and a half. The cat stands up to him and there is no problem. He is a good dog and I don’t worry about him being a “killer” any more. For us, it was an isolated incident, and I feel he was just being an immature pup. Give your pup another chance. I am sorry for your loss, but like you said, it is up to us to supervise.




Unbelievable, literally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 13, 2017)

Really? Why?


----------

