# uncontrollable human aggression



## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

IS there such a thing as true human aggression?? a puppy who was very sick(about 3 months old)found abandoned.This dog is totally loving to my son and girlfriend.Between the two of them they have 5 rescue dogs.This dog once he recovered from starvation-bad worm burden has increasingly shown BAD aggression to anyone other than humans he accepts(son and girlfriend).Other 5 rescues have no dog/human aggression problems and he is treated /trained the same.What is going on? any help appreciated.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont think a 3 month old puppy could hate people like that....?
Did the rescue tell them that?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I may be wrong but it may be a protection thing.If he is only nice to his "owners" that would be my guess.I have no idea of how to fix it though so I'll sit back and watch for advice.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldog
> IS there such a thing as true human aggression??


IMHO - yes.

But - in a 3-4 month old puppy? I'd say it's more fear aggression (due to previous treatment).


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree. Sounds like fear in a puppy that missed out on socialization in his early weeks. Fixable - or at least manageable - but will be a gradual process. The younger they get started, the better. I've seen semi feral puppies actually make a complete turn around but it takes some time and technique. Is there a good trainer in their area who can help?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

sorry did NOT make clear -pup recued at 3 months now about year old.
would really like to hear if maybe in a dog of stressed background-unknown breeding IS it possible that SOME dogs really have HUMAN aggression
Thanks lauri-maybe it is true but uncomfortable to think about.It sure is sometimes true in humans


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

But is he showing aggression towards the current owners?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

but if the dog is good with the owners then the problem is not aggression towards humans it's aggression towards strangers or outsiders. 

I've seen a few dogs who through gross mishandling and abuse had become aggressive towards people (all people) but it's rare and takes a lot to get to that point - as well as a certain temperament of dog. Far more common are dogs that become fear aggressive, dogs would much rather fly than fight but feel cornered because the "intruder" is in their house, near their yard etc. 

I've seen a few dog that had become predatory towards people which could be thought of as aggression towards humans but that's super rare too and of course not at all what you're describing. 

For the most part, dogs are just hardwired to connect with people. 10,000 plus years of genetics are telling them to. And I say this after dealing with thousands of dogs from bad backgrounds, lack of socialization, and unknown or bad breeding. They still almost all want to connect with people and even those that don't want to avoid people not attack them.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

If a dog NEVER aggresses against those humans he lives with but is aggressive to other humans (please suppose this dog is part of a family of 5 dogs that have NOT shown human aggression)Is actual real human aggression possible?NOTtalking single bite/snap but attack? This dog has had full vet workup with no untreated abnormalities.Treated for bad worm infestation.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Basu was like this with strangers. He would have attacked if we had allowed him. In his case it was FEAR aggression. It took a LOT of training and counter conditioning and positive reinforcement but he got better. He was already 4.5 years old when we got him though.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My first question is what breed of dog are we talking about here?

Is he aggressive all the time or is it territorial? For example, if he's walking down the street, is he snapping at strangers going the other way? Or is it more he doesn't want other people coming in your son's home or around his car?

I'm asking becuase I have a dog with territorial aggression. She was abandoned or ran away, lived on the streets for a while and was brought to a shelter at 6 months old, full of worms and with an ear so infected it still sits a little crooked.

Until about the time she was 4, Morgan could not handle company in the house without her leash on. At about 2 years old, she learned to accept certain people that she saw often. She's learned with age to look to me for guidance and I trust her 100% with people in the house _now_


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

1 year is still pretty young. I would not give up on the dog. I think that it is still probably fear-based. The dog is saying get the heck away from me, I do not know you and I do not trust you. So it looks terrible, but is generally fearfullness rather than, Kill, blood, rip, tear, eat the humans. 

If it is fear based, then often times, doing stuff like agility with the dog really builds confidence and improves the bond. While the dog seems to tolerate or even like and show affection to your son and his wife, it does not sound like he believes they are capable of protecting him. That thought is a bit complex for a dog, but the dog does not trust the owners to protect him and will aggress out of fear. 

While in the process of learning the full body sport of agility, the dog improves his trust in his owner, and looks for direction from the owner, while building his confidence. It is worth a try. And like everything else, a tired dog is less likely to get himself in trouble.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I would be interested in the circumstances, is this only in the home, or is this out in public? Or both? Is it a problem with people coming to the house?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have one that is 1 1/2 who is apprehensive of people....even people he knows if they make eye contact, make certain movements etc. he has been totally socialized from day one, with people giving him food, in classes, Agility, Obedience, etc...

its a long process to help them with this fear/unsure issue. as said above counter-conditioning programs can help, but take alot of time and dedication. learning the dogs triggers, breaking things down and working on things slowly.......

What kind of worm infestation did he have? i have my own theories about that....


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: I dont think a 3 month old puppy could hate people like that....?


Don't ever think that...

Working at a dog training facility for the last 5 years has been a real eye opener..


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

there are many reasons why a pup/dog dislike or are suspicious of people.....

doesn;t neccesarily mean the dog hasn't been properly socialized, or abused, etc......can be the genetic makeup and can be a hard one to figure out.......i think its true that genetically the dog is either attracted to people naturally and comfortable interacting with people, or genetically leary of people.............

i agree with Leesa, even a puppy can show signs of this......which was the case with my young male who is non-trusting of people and feels threatened for no apparent reason other than some of the triggers i see him reacting to with people around....


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I think that there are some young puppies that have bad genetics and that are HA. 

That said, I think some people that say their puppies are HA, just have naughty puppies that need discipline and guidance. I know of an APBT puppy that was labeled HA by it's owner and really he just lacked discipline and management. There was no reason that he had to be PTS, he could have easily been managed BUT the owner had too many other dogs to try and keep him. 

I really feel that true HA puppies are fairly rare when you compare them to the number of puppies produced. A true case of HA would be a tough call and hard to deal with. 

Courtney


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

reply to all
this dog was found in the back lot of a feed store.there were two dead siblings with him.He was immediately taken to e-vet barely alive.He got IV fluids and needed a blood transfusion probably because of HUGE worm infestation.This puppy looked like a balloon on sticks -huge abdomen emaciated body.Vet said worst worm infestation he had EVER seen.Heartworm negative -probably any other worm positive.
1600 dollars later he survived.
Breed question=vet said some GSD/hound cross=looks like GSD but VERY short coat kinda beagle lenghth
history lived with 4 other rescues.always been human neutral in home BUT does not withdraw from visitors but NEVER approaches can be a litle defensive if visitor pushes meeting.
not sure about car behavior -but can be leash aggressive toward strangers.
the aggression was toward a person in home who he knew.This was NOT a bite it was an ATTACK.
Not trying to play some kind of -what if thing!!my son very upset and so am I.Sometimes it's bad to push things


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Has your son ever done any type of class training/socializing with the dog? 

And I guess I would ask, what were the circumstances of the attack on the person he knew in the house? Did , say the person just walk into the house? was he just sitting there and the dog attacked him?? 

Scarey stuff when you have an unpredictable dog like this, but it sounds like he may have been predictable with his previous behaviors?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks Jakoda for reply.As far as I know NO class/group training was done with this dog.Any problems did not seem bad enough till attack occurred.The person attacked was frequent visitor to the house.The dog always ignored but tolerated this person.The person understood dog had problem and also ignored the dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

it's always scarey when something like this happens, and I feel for your son and the person who was attacked, especially an unprovoked attack.

You will probably never know the reasoning behind it, only the dog knows why he did what he did, (to bad they can't talk) and for whatever reason, not that it was excusable at all, the dog felt the behavior was warranted. 

If I were your son, I personally wouldn't trust him around anyone, obviously ignoring him didn't work with this instance anyway. Unfortunately he sounds like he could be a ticking time bomb (and a huge liability) 

Does your son have access to any behaviorists that may be qualified in dealing HA dogs? if so, I'd try to sound one out..

Good luck to him, it's not going to be an easy road I think.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks-sad but because of the extent of the aggression involved think maybe my son is thinking of euthanizing this dog.I guess relunctantly I might agree.HAARD for me to say.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

it is a really hard thing..do you think the dog is happy?? I mean is he happy with his immediate family???

I feel bad for the dog to because something is just not right when a dog attacks with no warning/reasoning.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Can he seek a behaviorist before doing the no turning back alternative?
It would stink if all the dog needed was direction and he got the needle.

I count my blessings every time I hear of someone with a people aggression dog.I think dog/dog aggression is easier to deal with.I just know she isn't going to like another dog so I do everything in my power to keep her from not having contact with them.

I wish them luck on what ever the decision is.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks for your support.Dog-dog aggression is soo hard to deal with (I have that problem)but dog-human can be soo worse.Have not had communication with my son since my post yesterday-and I understand ( sometimes you need some space and time to deal with your problems.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I feel for the puppy/dog, but I also feel for your son. It IS a huge liability. 

It sounds like he already put a lot of money into this poor pup, he gave the dog a shot at a normal life. I am afraid that somethimes our best efforts are not enough to overcome what people have put them through. 

I personally think that your son should euthanize this dog. I am sorry that this is the outcome, but unless your son is 100% sure it will not turn on family members, and can keep it crated whenever there are visitors, and muzzled when in public, then I think to prevent them from a bad lawsuit and to prevent serious injury to another person, I think that they should humanely euthanize the dog.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

My experience with dogs that are aggressive towards non-family members is that they don't transfer that behavior towards their family. They may never be trustworthy with guests but can be crated or put in a separate room when people are over and live a normal and happy life the rest of the time. Granted, it does require a commitment to keeping the dog out of situations where it can get into trouble. 

Can you tell us more about the circumstances of the attack?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the dog attacked a regular customer though. I don't know. It sounds like a full fledged attack and not just a bite or two.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

person was NOT customer but regular visitor.SOO hard for me to judge/and yeah probably should NOT .to my knowledge this was an attack not a bite and maybe agree euth the best thing,


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry, just a way of saying the person was around all the time -- a regular customer.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqMy experience with dogs that are aggressive towards non-family members is that they don't transfer that behavior towards their family. They may never be trustworthy with guests but can be crated or put in a separate room when people are over and live a normal and happy life the rest of the time. Granted, it does require a commitment to keeping the dog out of situations where it can get into trouble.
> 
> Can you tell us more about the circumstances of the attack?


Yeah-you just can't expect them to be "out in the world" like other dogs but they can still have tons of fun and enjoy a great life. No law says dogs have to go to public places, can't be crated when people are over, etc.







These are dogs you just don't ever let make a decision. They can learn, and they can improve. Until they do, you set them up for success all the time by creating tight boundaries for them. 

You have Tufts in your general area. They not only have an incredible behavioral clinic, but PetFax services. http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/ I would go there before making any decisions. I would also want at least one other behaviorist that I trusted (and that takes some research) to also take a look at the dog. 

I would take human aggression over dog aggression any day. Rarely do you have an off-leash person rushing you trying to sniff your dog's butt... (trying to lighten it up but that truly is my preference if I had to have one)


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are plenty of dogs out there that are not good with strangers (under strangers I mean people that do not live in the home - as opposed to people that visit, even multiple times). It requires some management to have the dog safely confined while visitors are in the home.

In this case it is hard and unfair to make recommendations, especially regarding euthanasia, without knowing the circumstances leading to the attack/bite. If the person is badly injured, animal control may require euthanasia. It sounds like the dog did not have formal training or evaluation, so it sounds like not all avenues have been explored before discussing euthanasia.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, growing up, euthanasia was not something we discussed. If a dog bit the baby, he would be put down. There was no question about it. We knew that would be the answer and it only happened one time with a dog that had been hit by a truck. He recovered, but then he eneded up biting the baby, and my parent's took care of the problem.

If one of my dogs "attacks" another human being, I will put that dog down; unless the dog is protecting me or the indiviual is there uninvited for some bad reason. If one of my dog's bites someone, than I have to up the training, change leadership style, build the dog's confidence, improve containment and never let it happen again. 

I think there is a difference between a dog backing up, hiding, pulling away from, barking, growling, snapping, and finally connecting with an idiot, and the dog that runs forward without warning biting, and tearing and attacking to the point where it is completely in the red zone. If it came totally out of the blue, maybe I would try checking the dog out with the vet first, but I just don't know. I do not know if it would be a discussion. I think it would be just a sad trip to the vet and a lonely return.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I wish we had more info on the attack, and I'd like to hear again after you've talked to your son and things have calmed down a little bit.

Like was the dog lunging and barking and connected once...or was it an all out mauling?

It's probably easy to say shoulda, coulda, woulda at this point, but this dog really sounds like it should have had serious socialization and training from day 1. I think there is a molding period with some dogs that have had a rough start to life and likely come from a BYB during those first few months they are rescued that can make or break whether they succeed or fail. I think they have to know who the leader is, made to feel safe, and see a zillion things right off the bat.

But, there are genuinely bad seed dogs out there, too.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Update on my post about human aggression--just able to talk to my son about outcome.The dogger is presently enrolled in dog training classes and doing well.He was mildly agressive to other dogs in household-non aggressive to other dogs BUT aggressive to people.He is still being a work in progress and still NOT safe with people outside of his house.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad tho your son is working with him, hope this helps get him under some control , please keep us updated)


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

This is sounding a bit more like a dominance issue..... Trying to move up in the pack.....
Keep us posted.....


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogUpdate on my post about human aggression--just able to talk to my son about outcome.The dogger is presently enrolled in dog training classes and doing well.He was mildly agressive to other dogs in household-non aggressive to other dogs BUT aggressive to people.He is still being a work in progress and still NOT safe with people outside of his house.


I believe that Jean Dodds can cite some very impressive statistics that, in one study, a majority of human aggressive dogs actually have thyroid dysfunction. I was just looking over the notes the other day from the workshop of hers that I atttended. She also noted that thyroid dysfunction is being found earlier and earlier, and considering the way that this pup started off, then I wouldn't be surprised if some physical system of his was a bit compromised. Being about a year old would not be too young for thyroid dysfunction.

I would highly recommend getting the pup tested, a full thyroid panel, which includes a free T4, free T3, and TgAA (thyroidglobulin). Most vets, when testing for thyroid dysfunction causing behavior problems, don't have the first clue on what panel to run, nor do they know how to interpret the results. For this reason, I would recommend either having the blood run through Jean Dodds lab, or insisting on the panel at the vet that includes the TgAA (again, most vets don't have much of a clue about this), and then once the panel is run, pay the $35 for the consult with Jean Dodds. The test should not be run shortly after a rabies vaccine, as the rabies vaccine will increase the antibody response to the thyroid. If this pup is due for his rabies, it might be interesting to see if this gets worse after the vax.

If you can get through all the annoying highlighting, etc. all the info and links that you need are found here: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM You can even call or email the lab first, and ask about the link between thyroid dysfunction and human aggression.

Best of luck with the pup.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

TgAA=thyroglobulin antibodies, not thyroidglobulin!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have been looking into health issues regarding fear of humans and displaced behavior......abnormal brain activity.etc.

if this dog was malnurished at a young age the brain might not have had the proper nutrition to form properly........lack of cholesterol is one.........also if the pup had an infestation of worms that would be a huge player in robbing of nutrition. there are so many possibilities here.......

we have a thread here on medical issues regarding aggression, mostly naming thyroid conditions, but there are so many other conditions that can cause displaced behaviors......


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

baring any health problems you have a real issue here. The word "attack" is certainly a huge red flag. I make no secret that I have a very aggressive dog but she never had the chance to bite someone. A dog like this needs total control from the owner. My trainers taught me that thinking about the dog's past life is a human thing, it doesn't matter "why" or where the aggression comes from.
I love my dog but I am not sure how far my love would go if she seriously hurt someone.


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