# Question about prey drive and puppies



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK I am very new to this. Nikon's favorite toy is the puppy fishing pole. I bought mine from a SchH person at a show. It's got a piece of leather shammy on the end of it. He is so crazy for this toy, I have to be REALLY careful if I pick it up to pack it for the club, he will fly out of nowhere and lunge at it. He has bit me or ripped clothes several times when I've not been paying attention, holding it too close to my body. The other day he got hold of it and I was late for something, so as a last effort to get him off it I offered him a handful of food and he gave me a look that flipped me off and kept on tugging. At home when we use it, I basically whip it all over. Our TD said to make sure the dog is worked from all angles, not just in front, so if I back tie Nikon or have Phil hold the line I whip it in a semi-circle, not just out front. Sometimes I flutter it up high so he jumps for it. If he seems less interested I might flutter it in the air until he is barking mad, spitting, and lunging around and then bring it down and let him bite it. Sometimes I just move it along the ground back and forth, in a circle, or a figure 8 so he can never quite catch ut (but every 20 seconds or so I let him get it, and if the grip looks good, I move down and hold it at the rag and we tug). I don't necessarily move my body at all, but I whip that thing around like crazy until he is nuts (and if he happens to be crated and sees me touch that toy he starts barking and ripping at the door of his crate). We take this and a few other toys everywhere b/c my breeder said to get it so he will tug anything, anywhere.

Now when we go to our club, the TD often uses my toys b/c I have that nice flirt pole, a larger leather rag, some smaller puppy tugs that he puts on a leash, etc. He is so much more gentle and mellow about it though, he just kind of slowly drags it back and forth and encourages the dog in a soft, higher voice. Nikon is still obsessed with it and takes every bite he is offered, but I'm wondering if I am making it TOO exciting for him and he's expecting it to be as crazy and fun as it is at home and eventually will not work as well at the club? I always thought he should get as worked up over it as possible and if I can tell he won't be then I put it away immediately and if he is, I make sure to end the playtime and put it away before he gets tired or bored of it. If he's only going to be half-assed about it he can play with any number of his "regular" toys, but the rags and tugs are the *special* toys that only I take out and put away and I want him to want more than anything. Mind you, he will go for this thing even if it's lying still, but it just seems so much more fun to be all crazy about it and get him barking like mad and frothing at the mouth. I can't figure out if I'm doing it wrong or if my TD is just erring on the side of caution since there are some puppies that are a bit more calm and cautious?


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Sounds like your TD knows what he or she is doing. I would stick with TD's advice. No problem getting the dog worked up. Just end the play while he is still worked up rather than when he loses interest. My TD wanted me to back tie my dog and not let her get the toy on one day then let her get it the next day to build her prey drive. He wanted her to be as crazy as possible for the toy.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I will be interested to hear what the more experienced people have to say about this...

Just thinking out loud about what you've posted...

It would seem to me that yes you want them to want the object, to be excited, and animated...but you wouldn't necessarily want them frantic? That could make them hectic later on? You want them to still be able to think at some point when the object (eventually the sleeve) comes out. Is that what they refer to as clear-headed? I recall having to run a lot of circles with my puppy early on carrying the bite pillow and pulling him in and petting him calmly while he held it, and then when he dropped it starting the game over again.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Keep in mind that I'm working with a puppy for the very first time also, so this is only my take on it. There may well be other views and opionions offered that will differ.

I've always been told to work a dog with the _least_ amount of prey movement possible to elicit the desired response. If Nikon gets as excited about the fishing pole and gets his prey drive up when your TD works him gently, than you work him at that level. There is a few reasons that I can think of why you would want this.

As JKlastky was saying, your dog needs to learn to be in a high state of drive, but still be able to think. Now granted, Nikon is still a puppy, so don't want to expect too much, but it builds a foundation of being calm, in control, and in drive, all at the same time. 

As Nikon gets older and advances in his training, one VERY important aspect of a Schutzhund protection routine is a good bark. It takes some experience to hear the difference, but dogs will have a high-pitched, whiney prey bark, and a lower, more rhythmic, more serious defense bark. You need the defense bark for the protection phase. You start by getting the dog to bark in prey (what we sometimes call the "crazy bark", because they are soooooooo hyped up!), and then mold that bark into a more serious bark. If by overdoing the movement during training, the dog will have a hard time switching barking styles as he will be stuck in prey drive due to all that crazy movement. 

Another part of the foundation training for a puppy is to teach it to be pro-active to the tug, as opposed to reactive. A reactive dog waits for something to happen, then reacts to a tug/toy once it is being waved around, and will bark at it. 

A pro-active dog sees the toy/tug, and will initiate the bark to get it moving! Watch your TD the next time he works Nikon. The slow movements are a way of encouraging Nikon to be pro-active. Nikon will want the tug to move: nothing is happening! Nikon will bark at the tug, the TD will start moving it around quickly, or give Nikon a bite! Nikon has learned that his barking makes fun things happen! Tug! Bites! Yeah! This is part of the foundation work for the hold-and-bark. The dog runs to the blind, and will bark to get the helper to move and give him a bite on the sleeve. 

Nikon seems to have tons of natural prey drive and desire to work! Lucky you! Your training will be a lot of fun. You do want to keep him from going into a state of "overdrive", that is counter productive, as it creates a hyper dog that can not focus and stays stuck in the crazy-bark mode.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyI will be interested to hear what the more experienced people have to say about this...
> 
> Just thinking out loud about what you've posted...
> 
> It would seem to me that yes you want them to want the object, to be excited, and animated...but you wouldn't necessarily want them frantic? That could make them hectic later on? You want them to still be able to think at some point when the object (eventually the sleeve) comes out. Is that what they refer to as clear-headed? I recall having to run a lot of circles with my puppy early on carrying the bite pillow and pulling him in and petting him calmly while he held it, and then when he dropped it starting the game over again.


Well, I always thought you *wanted* them to be frantic, to be barking and whatnot. I mean, not like totally out of control, but obsessed with whatever objects you are using for training. But my worry is that *I* put too much into it and he will expect that of a helper later on? I dunno, maybe I'm over thinking it. The TD has seen how I work with him and hasn't said I'm doing it wrong, besides giving me some pointers here and there. 

I dunno, it's kind of hard to explain. I wish my camera had a video function!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidKeep in mind that I'm working with a puppy for the very first time also, so this is only my take on it. There may well be other views and opionions offered that will differ.
> 
> I've always been told to work a dog with the _least_ amount of prey movement possible to elicit the desired response. If Nikon gets as excited about the fishing pole and gets his prey drive up when your TD works him gently, than you work him at that level. There is a few reasons that I can think of why you would want this.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think we are on the same page, Lucia. Let me re-phrase my question because I think you've helped me figure out what my question is: what IS the "desired response" from the puppy? I think that's the cux of the issue. Maybe I expect too much? When I pick up the rag or tug I want to see his eyes light up and focus on that so much he doesn't care if I am tossing treats or if there's other puppies he could play with, and if I don't let him bite at it I want him to bark and bark at it until it comes down to his level or gets offered for biting or whatever. When the TD has the toy, it seems all he's looking for is for Nikon to focus on it enough to follow it back and forth, and to take the bite when he's offered (and re-grip to a better grip if he gets it in his front teeth).

I personally want the barking. The TD doesn't seem to care, at least not yet. Nikon is the only one of the puppies that will really bark at it (his sister has probably the same amount of prey drive but she claws at the ground and kind of whines for it). If Nikon REALLY wants it he will lunge and bark or kind of bounce on his feet and bark. Now some of the other puppies are not as intense or more timid, they need to really be coaxed to even focus on the toy while the other puppies are around, so I'm wondering if the TD is working all the puppies the same? I'm not saying Nikon is some stand out b/c I have no idea how to tell, but I am not kidding about his obsession with his rag! He is barking and lunging while it's another puppies turn, or even if he's in his crate and sees someone else using it. Which brings me to another question....when he does this I lean in and encourage him in sort of a low tone like "gooooo boy!" and pat him or rub his side. Is that OK? I guess I figured as long as he's reacting to the toy/helper and demanding it come back to him I can encourage that? Normally if he acted that way like in a puppy class I would distract him or put him away but this is different, right?

So am I right to be encouraging the barking or is it not all that important yet? Again I'm a total noob to all of this but when I watch the protection test at the Sieger shows (yes I'm aware these dogs pale in comparison) the one thing I can't STAND is the dog that outs and just sits there staring at the helper with his tongue lolling! BARK dang you!!! Half the other dogs waiting their turns are barking!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It sounds to me like your TD at this time is concentrating on getting good bites. I don't think you need to worry about the barking too much, it will come naturally for Nikon. Getting to bite full is more of a priority right now. Every puppy is different, as you have observed, and a good TD will be able to prioritize what each dog needs to bring out the best in him. 

I think one common mistake for people to fall into when starting it out, is that they want everything to happen and progress very fast (and I'm guilty of that too!). But having been working a dog that has started later in life, I can see the importance of building the right foundation from a pup, and to not rush things. 

Now, I don't know if this if right, wrong, or just is, but I have found that both with Keeta and Falkor, how they respond to me playing tug with them, and how they respond to the helper are two different things. For example, since I'm the pack leader, my dogs show me more defference. They won't bark at me, not even in play. They don't tug as hard as when they are with a helper. Not sure why, my guess is that they don't really want to fight me for a tug. The helper is seen more as an equal, a playmate at this stage. 
Neither Keeta nor Falkor will hesitate to really hang on and fight for the wedge or the sleeve. When I work them, it is more play, and they do not show the same intensity. When the helper works them, they are more serious about it. 

So not sure how to answer your question about how YOU should work Nikon. You could probably tone it down a bit, because I think you are on the right track when you say that you are thinking that if you always super-animated, then Nikon will loose interest if the helper is not. I agree that could happen, you will have conditioned him to expect it. On the other hand, he is still a puppy, so have fun with him, and make sure that the training is fun for him too! 

As for encouraging to bark when he is in his crate - that I would not do. You may well regret it later on when he gets so hyped up as a grown dog, watching other dogs being worked that he continually busts out of his crate! (It happens more than you think!)

What I did with Falkor when he was itty-bitty, when all we were doing with him was rag work and during the teething lay-over, was to take him out of his crate, and sit by the training field to let him watch other dogs being worked. It always got his interest 200%!!! You should have seen how intent he was on it! (Gee, you would think it was in his blood







). When his excitement got to the point that he started barking, then I praised him lavishly, and ran him back to his crate! This builds drive too, allowing them to get to high level of arousal, and not giving them a chance to defuse their energy, but keeping them frustrated. 

This also taught him that barking OUTSIDE the crate, ON the field was good, as he got praise for it. Now Falkor doesn't bark much in h is crate, but if he had been, I would have ignored it. You don't want to create a dog that barks non-stop in his crate during the whole time you are at training. 

Just that little bit of watching and praising did a lot for Falkor. I didn't get to work him for a month or so after his teething was over. But when I did bring him in for some puppy-tug work after that, he pulled me barking to a sleeve that was lying on the ground and started to jump on it and try to kill it. Up until then, we had ONLY done rag work - yet he was all hyped up and ready to grab that sleeve just from watching other dogs from over a couple months ago. 

Remember not to feel like Nikon has to do everything right, right from the beginning. It's okay if he isn't barking right now - that will come with time and training. From your other posts about Nikon, I would say that working on his bite is more important right now, barking will come to him very naturally.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, that makes sense. Yes the TD does give us a lot of tips about bite, which is good because sometimes I can't really tell what is good and bad. When he is tugging with Nikon he tells me when to give Nikon enough leash to bite, when to encourage if he has re-gripped, etc.

I think I am super animated at home because it's fun! I like getting worked up and doing a lot of tug, I've actually been using it as part of *my* exercise, lol!

I think he tugs the same with others as with me. At home he probably is a little more intense with me but because I am more animated about it. I let my husband, my sister, the TD, some other people at the club, etc try tugging and he doesn't seem to care who it is. When he was real young I think he was more submissive to me but it seems he's gotten over that. I let him tug from the side instead of having to stare at me and used the flirt pole a lot to create some distance. Now if I want to I can lift him off my feet and stare at him and he doesn't care (tried a few times to see what he would do). The TD does things like grabbing his head, pretending to hit, and Nikon just growls and tugs harder. Should he be less intense with me? If it matters, I plan to try some other things like agility and whatnot and hope to use tug games between him and myself as rewards for that so I want him to like to tug with me.

I think his barking is really good, at least compared to the other dogs (well except for his mother, she is nuts!). But again, I think I encourage that because I like it and it's fun. My other GSD doesn't bark. Nikon had "speak!" on command at 9 weeks (I taught him b/c he would bark at me constantly any time he wanted someone and my other trainer said to put it on cue, and it worked. He barks like crazy at SchH and when we use the flirt pole, but no longer barks at me to demand other things). When he barks in his crate at SchH I simply ignore him (and he's been in two conformation shows already and has not been barking there), but I do pat him and let him bark when he is out. Our TD usually has all the puppies in a line and then he and the helper he is training go down the line with various toys, so Nikon will bark when the dog next to him is working. I know my weakness with ALL of my dogs is that I find things they do well and are fun and just do that all the time and sometimes miss other things we need to work on that are more boring or I just don't know enough about. So probably in Nikon's case we have a lot of fun with prey drive and his barking but probably should be learning more about proper grips.



> Quote:I think you are on the right track when you say that you are thinking that if you always super-animated, then Nikon will loose interest if the helper is not. I agree that could happen, you will have conditioned him to expect it. On the other hand, he is still a puppy, so have fun with him, and make sure that the training is fun for him too!


Yeah, that's my concern, where is the balance between having fun and encouraging a bad habit?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's great that Nikon will play and tug with anyone! He is a very confident and self-assured young dog! Like I was saying in my post, I don't think that it is either right or wrong, it just is, no two dogs will act and react the same way. I was using the example of Keeta and Falkor and the difference in how they tug with me as opposed to how they tug with a helper to try and say that perhaps, you NEED to be more animated with Nikon to get the same response out of him as your TD, and to use your own judgement on what Nikon needs. 



> Quote: think I am super animated at home because it's fun! I like getting worked up and doing a lot of tug, I've actually been using it as part of *my* exercise, lol!


Haha! That is great! It is a good workout, isn't it? Builds your upper body strenght!

Your dogs are lucky to have you! I discourage barking in the house, the car, the crate, anywhere but during training. They would LOVE to go and live with you, LOL! I do ocassionally just let them bark their head off, for as much as I can stand it, just to give them an outlet for that energy. I call it Bark Therapy! 



> Quote:where is the balance between having fun and encouraging a bad habit?


Gosh you ask good questions! Wish I knew that! With the fishing rod thingy, if your TD is okay with your doing what you are doing, then I wouldn't worry too, too much about it. Some of the "bad habits" that I would try to discourage, because I didn't know any better with Keeta and now I'm paying for it, is growling when playing tug, and shaking the tug. - but these may not be issues at all with Nikon. Before Schutzhund, these were things that I found "cute" and encouraged in play. Very hard to get her to drop these habits now - especially in a dog that is prone to naturally shake and growl a lot when in drive. With Falkor, he is allowed to shake toys, but not allowed to shake tugs when we do tug work, and he only gets tugs when we do tug work so I can control that. 

I know with me, if I tried to listen to ALL the reccomendations and advice heard, read, and given to me over the last few years, my head would explode, and my dogs would be living in their crates without any interaction from me except for training on the training field - obviously not what I want out of my relationships with my dogs. There would be rules on how I play with them, how I handle them, what balls are allowed, what balls are not allowed. If I listened to some trainers, there would be so many controls on the dogs they would hardly be able to move on their own without my okay. If I listened to others, my dogs would be running wild with NO controls ever, except when training. There would be balls that were banned, balls that they can chew, balls that are too hard for chewing. Dogs would NOT get treats, ever, NOT be fed, only on the training field, etc, etc, etc . . . the point being, that there are 10000 recomendations and training "rules" out there, and bottom line is that Nikon is your dog, you have to live with him, and you can decide what you are comfortable with and what works best for you and him. 

For example, I have a lunging whip that is Keeta's most favorite toy in the world! This thing really flies! And so does Keeta after it! She jumps, she twirls, she launches and twists and grabs and tugs! Her intensity and drive for this thing is insane! She is like Nikon with the fishing rod. When I bring it out, she just about knocks me over trying to grab it. Now people could say: don't use it, she will become dependent on high and crazy movement from the helper to maintain drive and interest. Yet that is not the case. I would say that playing with the crazy lunge whip actually built her drive and intensity over time. 

Now Falkor already has so much drive, that I can't use the lunge whip with him, he goes into over-drive - he just gets so hectic and crazy, he wants to bite anything that moves - including my arms and hands. I don't want to push him into a state of uncontrolled, hectic drive, so I don't use the lunge whip with him at all. 

All to say, that there is no black and white answer to your question. I'd talk to other Schutzhund people (and I hope other people will chime in) and see what they have to say, and use your common sense and gut feeling as to what works best for Nikon.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My shaking do you mean if he gets to take the toy for a victory lap or whatever but wants to shake it instead? I know he will shake if I let the toy go so at home I very rarely let him take it. He doesn't "out" and I don't really know the proper procedure for letting him have the toy and somehow getting it back. (OMG he is destroying a soda bottle right now and shaking it SO hard I can't believe his brains aren't flying out!) The TD's routine usually involves getting the dog animated, letting him bite, doing some tugging, and then if the dog is still intense and the grip is good, he drops the tug and then I run with Nikon while he carries the toy. I have a leash on his harness but the TD also has me put one on his collar so I can help him keep his head up and hold the toy as long as possible. When he drops it we are instructed to keep moving back into our place in line, or kick the toy away so he can't have it unless the TD is working with him or he gets a victory lap. He drops it and it's done, he's lost control, no chewing it or shaking it. I don't think he tries to shake it while tugging, but he leans his butt way down and jerks and jerks on it backwards, hopefully that's OK.

I understand what you mean about advice. Not only am I new to this but Nikon is not a working dog bred for SchH. He's got to be a good companion dog as well and I don't budge on certain aspects of manners and basic training. He's done a puppy class and passed the STAR which probably involved some things hardcore SchH people wouldn't do. I don't need him to have top drives and get top scores, I want him to be a well-rounded dog with a solid temperament. I want to show him in Sieger shows so by default he will have to be titled in SchH at some point, but I do NOT want to be one of those people that does the bare minimum or sends my dog away to get some shady titles. I don't expect to win SchH trials but some of the dogs I've seen at Sieger shows are downright embarrassing to me so I won't have that either. If he doesn't cut it or doesn't enjoy it we can move on to something else. The SchH thing is hard for me b/c it seems so much has to be done as a puppy or you will never catch up!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Quote:My shaking do you mean if he gets to take the toy for a victory lap or whatever but wants to shake it instead?


Yes. That's why when I do Tug work with Falkor, I will do it outside, and have in on a line, and when he wins, I run with him (in little circles in the driveway, LOL,) and keep him from shaking, like you do. When you are running with him, and he wants to shake the tug, give little jerks on the line to lift his head and run FASTER! They can't run and shake at the same time! 

In the house, I don't tug with him much - he might bring me a knotted rope or other toy for play, and I'll tug with him a bit, and those things he is allowed to shake if he wants. 



> Quote:I don't think he tries to shake it while tugging, but he leans his butt way down and jerks and jerks on it backwards, hopefully that's OK.


Oh, that's perfect! That is exactly what you want! When you play with him and he does this, let him move backwards as he pulls you. Pretent he is overpowering you! Make a big deal of it. Let him win while he is pulling you like that, pretend you were just too weak to hold him and resist his pulling, and make a big deal of what a good, strong boy he is! That will build his confidence, and he may hold/carry the tug longer if he feels he won it fair and square! 

Don't worry about the "out" yet. Outing a young dog too much can cause grip problems in the future. At home, I let Falkor bring into the house all his cherished sticks, ice clumps, dirt clumps, etc, because I don't want to have to turn having to give up his stuff into a fight (which I quickly throw back outside once in the house and dropped and forgotten). I let him bring his tug or wedge into his crate when we train. He usually drops it once in the crate, so I don't have to out him. Will be interesting to see what happens once he starts trying to get in his crate with an entire sleeve in his mouth, LOL. 

I've no doubt, that when Nikon will get his SchH titles, they will have been truly and fairly earned!


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

When I did tug play on training field with Juli, the TD would get her all worked up with minimum movement of the prey rag, always moving the rag away from her not toward her. Once she got hold of hit he would play tug for a while, then I would run her in a circle with the prey item in her mouth. When she dropped it the game would start over again always keeping her drive on. Sometimes if you stroke the underside of their head they will drop the prey item.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThe SchH thing is hard for me b/c it seems so much has to be done as a puppy or you will never catch up!


This could not be farther from the truth! I know most (if not all) here will disagree with me but the main thing to do during puppyhood is let them be puppies. That's it. Other than scent pads and tracks with lots of food, Flash did not start real training until he was 14 months. That was when we started to do stuff and only recently (around 17 months) did we REALLY start to train. It wasn't until then that we started fussing and we only dabbled in bitework between 14 months and then. Puppy circle? Flash has never been in one of those. Rag work? He's never done it. Bite pillow? He doesn't know what they are. Puppy sleeve? Never. We waited for him to "grow up" and then went straight to the sleeve. No grip or barking issues whatsoever. And it certainly didn't take work to get him to understand the whole point of protection. Instead, we had more of a total dog to work with, not just prey. And had we done bitework from an early age we would NOT be further along than we are now. In fact I'd argue we may even be behind where we are now but that's for another discussion. Like I said, though, the vast majority of people will not agree with this.

What has been said by others is correct. You want him to be active, not reactive. Barking=things happen, not things happen=barking. I did have a flirt pole for puppy Flash and he loved that thing. And if you can get him to bark, DO IT! This will prove to be invaluable during your obedience. Every single obedience session is started by me throwing the toy on the ground out of Flash's reach and him barking for it. Then I grab the ball while holding him back (getting harder and harder to do!) and off we go. Barking=drive. You are not tapping into your dog's drive until you get them barking for their toy. In fact, barking for toy during obedience is so important I will say it again. You are not tapping into your dog's drive until you get them barking for their toy. And of course his barking here is different than his protection barking.

My .02 that's worth more like -.02.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK one other question...lately he's been bringing Cuz' and putting them in my lap, since they are gross, I say "ick!" and throw it, then he chases it and brings it back, rinse repeat. It took me a while to figure out he is starting to enjoy balls and fetch, so sometimes when he brings me a Cuz ball I hold it and stare at him and don't throw it until he starts barking and bouncing at me. Is that similar to what you are talking about? I don't squeak it or roll it around, just hold it still out of reach until he demands I throw it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would listen to my TD and lay off the internet advice...Why??? because decisions on what is the best thing to do, varies with the "reading " of the puppy, unless you are experienced enough to read yourself...but if you were,, you wouldn't be asking the question in the first place. It is impossible to READ YOUR DOG from what you are posting because the things that the TD is reading may be pertinent for right now, or for things that he/she sees that may develop in the future based on his reading your puppy's temperament....Trust your TD unless you have reason not to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's not that I don't trust him, but admittedly his experience is training police dogs, not SchH dogs, and I know SchH on some levels can be black/white, at least that's the way it seems. For example for his tracking he does not care if the dog is air scenting, cutting corners, etc. His goal is to find an article ASAP, or find a missing kid. Precision really doesn't matter at all. We did have a guy who titled SchH dogs who was being a second helper for a while but he hasn't been back in a while.

Plus, I just like to talk about stuff online. Like Jessica said if I did *everything* everyone ever advised we'd be ALL over the place (and that applies for everything not just SchH).


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