# Lou Castle Crittering And Aggression



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Alright, so, I'm not going to get into serious detail as I'm pretty sure I can confirm I have a problem, but here's a little info:

I decided I would take Koda to the dog park tonight for one last "hoorah" since he's getting his Immiticide shots tomorrow and won't have a life for two months. Well, he went after a Rottie. It wasn't awful, but it was completely unprovoked. I made a thread like this before in regards to a Boxer pup he went after a while ago. This isn't cool, and it only started after he got attacked by an Akita and a Grate Dane (Two separate occasions). So now I'm pretty sure he's got fear aggression towards other dogs because he's been attacked. Awesome. It only seems to be towards males, not females, and certain ones. I'm pissed because I feel like this could have been prevented. Screw dog parks. Whatever.

Point of this thread. Has anyone done this, or looked into it?:

LOU CASTLE - CRITTERING AND AGGRESSION

I found a video on YouTube of two dogs that apparently used to want to kill each other, then after using that method, the video shows them romping around having a grand old time. If Koda seems to still have an issue with aggression after his heartworm treatment I'd like to look into this method of training if anyone can confirm that it works. So...anyone?


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Lou Castle is a member of the forum, so I'm sure he will notice this at some point and can help you out!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lin said:


> Lou Castle is a member of the forum, so I'm sure he will notice this at some point and can help you out!


He's also good about answering his emails [email protected]


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Lin said:


> Lou Castle is a member of the forum, so I'm sure he will notice this at some point and can help you out!


Seriously? Hah...I'm awesome. I didn't know that. Well if he's a member, then I bet he can back up his method! I'll be sure to try it when Koda's through with his treatment if he's still having an issue.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I have been considering using his method for my dogs squirrel and cat obsession, but haven't decided yet.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think there is a difference between "aggression" and "fear aggression". In my opinion (and I am not a trainer but went through the same thing with Jax when she was attacked....Aggression needs to be managed.  Fear aggression needs to be overcome.

Buy the book Fiesty Fido. It's cheap and will give you lots of insight into a dog with fear aggression.


----------



## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Be VERY careful, I can see your dog associating the shock coming from the other dog using this method.
You may have tragic results, if your timing is not spot on.

If you have not already, I would also watch Michael Ellis' short video.

"Proper Use of the Electric Collar"

Leerburg


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I think there is a difference between "aggression" and "fear aggression". In my opinion (and I am not a trainer but went through the same thing with Jax when she was attacked....Aggression needs to be managed.  Fear aggression needs to be overcome.
> 
> Buy the book Fiesty Fido. It's cheap and will give you lots of insight into a dog with fear aggression.


When you went through this with Jax, what happened? Did she start attacking other dogs unprovoked as well? How did you get her over it? I'm going to look into this book. I'm pretty sure I'll be hiring a trainer when the time comes, I've got to get him over the heartworm first, that's going to be two months. I'm just angry with myself over this whole thing. He was completely fine before the attacks. He would get mounted by dogs and just stand there, no reaction whatsoever, didn't even bat an eyelash. Now after those attacks he growls at certain males that come near him, then starts barking, then it escalates to him staring them down and attacking. I know this all came about because he's not yet neutered. The guy with the Great Dane who went after him said so himself, that his Dane doesn't like unneutered males. Well sorry man, that's not my freaking problem, you control _your_ dog! The guy has no idea why Koda isn't neutered yet, he probably thinks I've had him since he was a pup and that I'm keeping him intact to breed him or some bull**** like that. He doesn't have a clue that Koda is going through heartworm treatment and can't get neutered until that's taken care of. Now because he couldn't control his dog Koda is suffering the consequences.

Ugh...Sorry. I needed to rant. I still blame myself on some level. I feel like if I hadn't brought him to the dog park before he was neutered that he wouldn't have been attacked, but how was I to know he would encounter dogs that didn't like intact males? Then again, it's the other guys fault for bringing a dog that would attack another male! I just hope this isn't a life long thing! Ahhh... Either way. This needs to be addressed after the heartworm. I won't be taking him anywhere near a dog park until after he's neutered and the aggression is under control, if ever.


Deejays_Owner - I see where you're coming from. I don't want Koda thinking the shock can be attributed to a bite from another dog. I've been against shock collars of any kind from the beginning. Bark collars, etc., but I don't know what else to do, I've never dealt with aggression before. As I said, I'm sure a trainer is going to be in order when the time is right...


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

*Melina*
*"Ugh...Sorry. I needed to rant. I still blame myself on some level. I feel like if I hadn't brought him to the dog park before he was neutered that he wouldn't have been attacked, but how was I to know he would encounter dogs that didn't like intact males? Then again, it's the other guys fault for bringing a dog that would attack another male! I just hope this isn't a life long thing! Ahhh... Either way. This needs to be addressed after the heartworm. I won't be taking him anywhere near a dog park until after he's neutered and the aggression is under control, if ever."*

I take my unaltered male to the dog park and we have never had an issue with other males whatsoever.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well...first we sent the fostered doberman to a new foster home. She apparently had enough of him and sent him to the E-vet for 13 stitches. Once that stress was reduced at home, and she wasn't constantly looking over her shoulder to see if she had to defend herself, she has steadily gotten better.

Yes. She started attacking any dog that got in her space. You could see her tense up and then it all fell apart. Even with some of the nicest, calmest dogs we know. With her it has nothing to do with how the other dog is behaving but about her fear. "I'll get them before they get me" is the motto of the day. She still barks at some dogs. I try to anticipate it and turn her the other way. Then walk back and repeat until she calms down. I don't care if she ever plays with another dog again but I want her to be able to be around them without being scared.

I'm not convinced that him being intact has alot to do with his reaction. It may be contributing but it sounds like it's fear rather than hormones or dominance.

Buy Fiesty Fido and The Other End of the Leash. Both books are very helpful in understanding why they are reacting and what signs to watch for so you can catch it before it escalates. Do NOT ever let him get to the point where he is staring down the other dog. Once he starts barking, or hopefully before, turn him the other way and get his mind off the other dog.

It sounds like he's picking up a vibe from some dogs and 'warning' them off before they get to close. First, keep him around safe, steady dogs. Make sure you are calm and not giving off vibes to add to his fear. Don't let him fixate...ever. With Jax, any kind of correction feeds her frustration and fear so I don't put any correction collar on her and if there is one I don't use it. It's all about getting her calm and relaxed.

It's still a work in progress.


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> *Melina*
> *"Ugh...Sorry. I needed to rant. I still blame myself on some level. I feel like if I hadn't brought him to the dog park before he was neutered that he wouldn't have been attacked, but how was I to know he would encounter dogs that didn't like intact males? Then again, it's the other guys fault for bringing a dog that would attack another male! I just hope this isn't a life long thing! Ahhh... Either way. This needs to be addressed after the heartworm. I won't be taking him anywhere near a dog park until after he's neutered and the aggression is under control, if ever."*
> 
> I take my unaltered male to the dog park and we have never had an issue with other males whatsoever.


I know a lot of males will smell the testosterone in an unneutered male and it will intimidate them, causing an attack. Koda's a very confident dog, too, so maybe he just sent out signals? Who knows. The attacks were completely unprovoked though. He did nothing to warrant being attacked, I kept a very close watch on him and he didn't solicit the attacks. I watch all of the dogs' body language at the park. With those attacks, Koda wasn't asking for it. The only thing I can think of is the fact that he's not yet neutered and is confident in himself.

Like I said, though, before those attacks, he was completely fine at the park. He would let dog after dog mount him without even so much as a growl. Now if certain males get near him, he growls, barks, and it escalates from there.

During the times he was attacked all he wanted to do was get away, he didn't fight back, he tried to run, tail between his legs, ears back, he was scared...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Melina said:


> During the times he was attacked all he wanted to do was get away, he didn't fight back, he tried to run, tail between his legs, ears back, he was scared...


Now I'm convinced he has fear aggression. That's exactly how Jax behaved at first also and then it escalated. It's the other dogs that needed collars! Poor Koda!


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I'm not convinced that him being intact has alot to do with his reaction. It may be contributing but it sounds like it's fear rather than hormones or dominance.


No, I'm saying I think that he was attacked by other dogs because he's still intact. I know other males can smell the testosterone and perceive it as a threat. He's naturally a confident dog, but prior to the attacks, he wasn't an aggressive dog. When he was attacked, all he wanted to do was get away. Before the attacks, he was confident in himself, would walk around with his tail up, greet other dogs, but never stare them down or growl. As I said, he would let dogs mount him and wouldn't do a darn thing about it. Now, after the attacks, he growls at certain males that get near him, then it grows into barking, then staring and fixating, and finally following the dog around and staring them down, and finally an attack. It's like you were saying, kind of an "I'll get you before you get me" kind of thing.

I'm almost positive the reason he was attacked is because he was both a confident dog and not neutered though, and other males saw that as threatening. So I'm kicking myself in the ass for bringing him to the park before he had been neutered. How was I to know that some jackass would bring a dog that didn't like intact males though? And that he would get attacked for just being him? I've never had an intact male dog, this is all new to me...I just feel like this all could have been prevented.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That makes sense. But I do NOT think this was your fault in any way! You can't control someone else's dog and you shouldn't have too. 

Get those books. I think you'll be surprised at what his body language was saying to the other dogs and you'll learn so much. I'm always finding something in there and thinking "I've seen her do that!" 

btw...sent you a PM


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know, I guess I shouldn't blame myself, but on some level I know that dog parks aren't the best place to go, yet I went anyway. After the first attack from the Akita, I went back and the Great Dane attacked, you think I'd get it. I just felt like Koda wasn't getting to go anywhere and socialize, now I get to deal with this. Then again, those people shouldn't bring aggressive dogs. The guy with the Great Dane knew his dog was prone to attacking, so it is _his_ fault. Now that I know Koda may have a tendency to do that, you better know darn well I'm not bringing him there until I get it figured out, if at all.

I know Koda's body language pretty well. I can see him tense up now, see when he gets a look in his eye, when he fixates, wants to follow a dog around. I know that a slight tail wag isn't always a good thing. I'm amazed at how ignorant people are to the body language of their dog at the park, though. As soon as I saw him start that behavior yesterday, I grabbed him and sat him down and tried to get him to focus on me to calm down. He did, then the guy with the Rottie was on his way out, so I let Koda go, that's when he went after him. Ugh...

Got your PM, thank you, I did respond.


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

My Bo is aggressive towards other dogs, he was never attacked and he was neutered at 4 months old due to his testicle was in his abdomen. He became aggressive at 6months old, he went to puppy social classes and basic obedience class, it started during OB class. I have no idea why. I have control of him and never let him get close to other dogs as I don't know what he will do. He is very powerful. You would never know by his cute face. I have not used any training collars yet, Good luck with Koda and keep us updated.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Melina said:


> I know Koda's body language pretty well. I can see him tense up now, see when he gets a look in his eye, when he fixates, wants to follow a dog around. I know that a slight tail wag isn't always a good thing. I'm amazed at how ignorant people are to the body language of their dog at the park, though. As soon as I saw him start that behavior yesterday, I grabbed him and sat him down and tried to get him to focus on me to calm down. He did, then the guy with the Rottie was on his way out, so I let Koda go, that's when he went after him. Ugh...
> 
> Got your PM, thank you, I did respond.


Then you also need to train recall solid enough to have him come whenever you see that body language begin. If you have good enough control that you can interrupt him and recall him things would be a lot easier to manage.

I am using an e-collar for that myself now.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Melina said:


> I found a video on YouTube of two dogs that apparently used to want to kill each other, then after using that method, the video shows them romping around having a grand old time. If Koda seems to still have an issue with aggression after his heartworm treatment I'd like to look into this method of training if anyone can confirm that it works. So...anyone?




Hi Melina. That video shows an extraordinary result. Usually all that happens is that the aggressive dogs stops being aggressive. 

My first recommendation is to stop going to the dog park. Too many out of control idiots there. And they bring their dogs too. lol. Besides anything else you have no idea of the state of health of those dogs, their vaccinations (not a big deal if yours are current) and any skin conditions they may have (that are a concern).


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I think there is a difference between "aggression" and "fear aggression". In my opinion (and I am not a trainer but went through the same thing with Jax when she was attacked....Aggression needs to be managed. Fear aggression needs to be overcome.


 
In my experience the overwhelming majority of dog–to–dog aggression is fear based. For this I recommend two things. One is teaching the recall and the sit (even if the dog already knows those movements) with the protocols ON MY WEBSITE. 

Then use the _"Crittering Protcol"_ that's already been linked. Doing the first builds the dog's confidence and doing the latter, works on the aggression.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Deejays_Owner said:


> Be VERY careful, I can see your dog associating the shock coming from the other dog using this method.


This happens with other methods of using the Ecollar for this issue. It doesn't happen when my protocol is followed. 




Deejays_Owner said:


> You may have tragic results, if your timing is not spot on.


_"Spot on"_ timing is not required for my protocol. If you have "excellent timing," learning occurs very quickly. But if you only have "good timing" learning still occurs without "tragedy." It just takes more reps. 

_"Tragedy,"_ which I'll guess means that the dog associates the stim as coming from the other dog, can occur with high levels of stim. The dog believes that the other dog hurt him from a distance. But since my methods uses stim at the level where the dog can first perceive it (it's uncomfortable, rather than painful) it doesn't happen. 




Deejays_Owner said:


> If you have not already, I would also watch Michael Ellis' short video.





Deejays_Owner said:


> "Proper Use of the Electric Collar"


I like that video. It's especially interesting because he talks about using the Ecollar for _"escape – avoidance training."_ Not too long ago Mr. Frawley (who hosts that website) said that he considers that _"escape training is abusive."_ He fails to realize that he uses it. But that's another topic.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Melina based on your description of his body language when he was attacked, I agree with Jax08 that it's fear based.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread is from when Onyx was having issues and Lou chimed in often, if you want to take the time to read thru it, it may help you.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-ugly/87010-can-fear-aggression-overcome.html


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Then you also need to train recall solid enough to have him come whenever you see that body language begin. If you have good enough control that you can interrupt him and recall him things would be a lot easier to manage.
> 
> I am using an e-collar for that myself now.



Rider - I see what you're saying. :thinking: This behavior is new though, I've only seen him do the stare down a couple times now, but I know what's coming when he does it. This time with the Rottie when he starting staring I called him and he came and seemed to fixate less, though it obviously wasn't enough, so I definitely need to work more with him.

Either way, he's at the Vet' overnight tonight for the treatment...I'll be picking him up tomorrow and we'll go from there...


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahhh, thank you guys. I skimmed over all the responses from both Lou and everyone else, I'll read over them in greater detail tomorrow, but I'm very appreciative.

Don't take this in a negative manner, but I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is going through, or has gone through this. It sounds like this happens quite often. I've been kicking myself in the ass feeling like I could have prevented his fear aggression somehow, but now I guess I just need to look forward and deal with it as it's already an issue. I can't say it enough, I need to get him healthy, then this issue will be addressed. Again, I'm just glad to know that this can be dealt with and worked through, I was starting to get upset thinking he may be this way the rest of his life, and all from two attacks that could have been prevented.

Thank you guys...

*Edit - I have another question, that I can think of: I was reading on some websites (Though I guess they're talking about an alternative method of training/thinking/whatever) that if your dog has an aggression issue of some kind that you, as the owner, don't have true "alpha" status over the pack, you and your dogs. What they mean by that is if you're in a public place with other dogs (Dog park, whatever), and your dog decides to attack another at will when you didn't give him the 'okay', then he's defying you as the "alpha" as he did whatever he pleased. You didn't say it was okay to attack, but he did what he wanted, therefore you're not the leader, he thinks he is. Is there any truth to this? I know that I have good alpha status at home, though. Koda isn't food or toy aggressive. I always enter doorways first, he sits for his food and leash, he doesn't pull on walks, I don't step over or around him if he's laying down. I'd like to think that I'm "pack leader"...


----------



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Melina said:


> Rider - I see what you're saying. :thinking: This behavior is new though, I've only seen him do the stare down a couple times now, but I know what's coming when he does it. This time with the Rottie when he starting staring I called him and he came and seemed to fixate less, though it obviously wasn't enough, so I definitely need to work more with him.
> 
> Either way, he's at the Vet' overnight tonight for the treatment...I'll be picking him up tomorrow and we'll go from there...


You'll have a while to think it over while he's resting from the immiticide treatment then.

I have to build that solid response as my girl gets carried away with other dogs playing. She can get pretty rough with her play, and get pretty pushy chasing dogs and trying to make them play or run, she is not asking them she is demanding like they are her toy or something even when the dog is clearly not wanting to. Sometimes I think she's drifting into prey drive too far on them, including my other dog. She's got a quite strong prey drive.

I am using an e-collar for training, and it does work well to interrupt her and get her to me to calm her down when she starts fixating on a dog like that.

My interest in Lou's technique for aggression and crittering is more to turn her off of cats and squirrels and such.


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

LouCastle said:


> Melina based on your description of his body language when he was attacked, I agree with Jax08 that it's fear based.


Haha, Lou, I just realized by reading the other thread that I made when Koda went after the Boxer pup that I had a brief conversation with you in that thread before. I didn't realize I had talked to you, I apologize.

I also mentioned in that thread that I wasn't ever going to get a remote collar. Well, guess what, here I am! It looks like I'll be getting one when his heartworm is all taken care of. I'm generally against anything that causes pain to a dog, but after reading up on the collars, it sounds like they're not terribly painful if you've strapped one onto a child! At this point, I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to get Koda over/manage his fear aggression.

If it's alright, can I contact you when the time is right (It will be a couple months) to see what can be done to manage his fear aggression?


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Remote collars should never be painful! Its not that they are "not terribly painful" but that used correctly are not painful at ALL. If they are inducing pain, they are being used incorrectly. Same with prong collars etc.


----------



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Lin said:


> Remote collars should never be painful! Its not that they are "not terribly painful" but that used correctly are not painful at ALL. If they are inducing pain, they are being used incorrectly. Same with prong collars etc.


Lin, that's good to know. As I said, I'm not for any pain inducing methods of training. I don't understand people who swat their dogs on the snout or the behind, what do they think that's going to do? The dog has no idea what that was about. I was of the belief that bark collars, shock collars, remote collars, etc. would give the dog a fair shock that would be pretty painful, but it doesn't sound that way now that I've read up on them, as long as they're being used correctly as you've stated. I'm all for positive reinforcement, and would normally not go the remote collar route, but if it's going to remedy Koda's fear aggression when the time comes to address it, you better believe I'm going to try it.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Melina said:


> Lin, that's good to know. As I said, I'm not for any pain inducing methods of training. I don't understand people who swat their dogs on the snout or the behind, what do they think that's going to do? The dog has no idea what that was about. I was of the belief that bark collars, shock collars, remote collars, etc. would give the dog a fair shock that would be pretty painful, but it doesn't sound that way now that I've read up on them, as long as they're being used correctly as you've stated. I'm all for positive reinforcement, and would normally not go the remote collar route, but if it's going to remedy Koda's fear aggression when the time comes to address it, you better believe I'm going to try it.


 
The first thing I did when my trainer set up the collars for my dogs was put them on my own neck and push the button.

They were not painful at all.

Though if turned up they definately are, that -can- give the dog a very strong jolt if set high enough to do so, or if you accidently hit a knob and turn them up without realizing it.


----------

