# Searching for right breeder in Central New Jersey



## Kedyr (Dec 22, 2007)

Happy Holidays!

I will be a first time GSD owner and looking for the right breeder in Central New Jersey area. I thought you all here could help guide me to a good breeder in the area (or should I import one or ship one in from another state, seems wierd to me) and also to critique a breeder as a way to educate myself on different things I have little knowledge on thus far (i.e. line breeding, pedigree details, etc).

First and foremost, I am looking for a companion dog to join my pack, wife, two children (4 years and 2 years), and our house cat. I'm also very interested in pursuing Schutzhund with the GSD, but not on a competitive basis (more of a way for the dog and I to learn about the sport together, to bond together, and to enhance his training with professionals). I'm also looking to purchase the pup no earlier then a spring 2008 litter. My budget is up to $2,500. I don't care so far (since I have little knowledge of) which line the dog comes from as long as it's German and not American, healthy (parents OFA normal/good), correct temperment, genetics are stacked my way for a good long term healthy dog.

After the holidays in Jan, I'll be visiting several kennels in the area. I will also start going to the local club events to meet other GSD lovers and really see what the breed, training, and show/sports are about. I'm compiling an entire list of questions for the breeder and preparing myself and my home for the pup (references, financial / time budgetting, fixing the 16x9 kennel i have on my property, etc).

I would appreciate any help you might have in locating the right breeder for me that you think breeds the kind of pup I am looking for, advice/guidance on the type of lines I should look at, and any feedback on the below breeder and dogs.

After doing some research about the local clubs, I found a breeder who is the president of two clubs (one with USA and the other with GSDCA-WDA). The web site for his breeding program is at: Jagermeister Shepherds .

He has a litter planned with the below dogs in 2008. When I do a Mate! check on the pedigrees, there are several linebreedings coming up that I am worried about. The dam also worries me with the linebreeding, but I have no experience to undestand if this is a red flag or not. 

Sire: Branco vom Banholz; SchH3, IPO3, FH, KKL2 - Pedigree 

Dam: Beau van 't Leefdaalhof ; SchH1 - Pedigree 

As somewhat of a case study, what do you think of the above dogs, what kind of litter they might produce, and the kennel in general from the web site I linked.

I understand there are a lot of other important factors to consider with this kennel, and I will gather that information when I visit, but I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time if the dogs he has and plans to breed are just not correct or desirable.

Thank you for any help you can offer and have a great holiday!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Looking at this, it will be a 2-2 on Dasty. the two dogs you list are half siblings. this is an extremely close linebreeding, then besides that....In fact, under the German system - which is much more quality control oriented than AKC, this close a breeding is not normally permitted.

5 - 5,5.............. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft

5 - 5................ in SG Arthus vom Lünsholz

5 - 5................ in Erle vom Buckower Feld

5 - 5,5............. in V Orlie vom Körbelbach

4 - 4............... in SG Half vom Ruhbachtal

4 - 4............... in V Karlo vom Peko Haus

5 - 5............... in V Ork vom Wolfendobel

5 - 5.............. in Jago vom Haus Gremm

5 - 5.............. in Nancy vom Mutzbach

4 - 4.............. in Gipsy von der Schafbachmühle

5 - 5.............. in Dunja vom Bernet

3 - 3............ in SG Pike von der Schafbachmühle

4 - 4............ in Anja vom Kerpener-Land

3 - 3.......... in SG Forma von Karthago

2 - 2.......... in Dasty Von Der Berger Hochburg


As a novice, and for a home companion dog, I would strongly encourage you to look further. This is not lineage known for being laid back, low prey house dogs.

Lee


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## Kedyr (Dec 22, 2007)

Thank you for the reply.

I'm going to skip that litter as it doesn't make sense for me to get involved with a pup that has so close line breeding like that (I assume they are more likely to be aggressive or have other traits a novice like me might have difficulty handling).

So my search continues. So far, I have the following kennels I will check out:

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/

(thanks rezkat5 for the references!)

Does it make sense for me to look outside of my area? I'm not sure if I can justify the expense of flying across country in search of a companion dog. If I were showing or entering into competitive sports, then no doubt I would take that investment of time and money, but I just can't believe I wont be able to find a good companion dog with great genetics from local breeders (with exercising patients to wait on the right litter).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've never heard of vonwyndmoor, so can't comment. 

I know that T.Floyd is very highly respected for his dogs and for the dog training and teaching he does. I've heard nothing but good things about him on the internet, and that is saying something, considering how the internet seems to sometimes bring out the worst in some people. However, his dogs may also be too strong/serious/drivey dogs for what you are looking for. 

I think that your best bet is the last link you posted, Molly Graf of Eichenluft. She used to be a member of this board and we have active members here that have dogs from her breeding, and are very happy with them. As a small hobby breeder, temperament suitable for familly environment combined with work ability are a major focus of her breeding program. I know she has produced awesome dogs that do well on the field, and are completely reliable family companions too. 

Hope this helps a bit.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, i agree that Eichenluft is a winner. molly is one i am considering for my next pup.

debbie


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Jim Hill is Wyndmoor Kennels and in Philly, close to Jersey. I have seen very nice dogs from his breedings. 

One of the nice people in the sport and breeding - one main trait I also look for when refering to breeders.

One of our F girls is out in that area.....


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Quoteoes it make sense for me to look outside of my area?


Never hurts!









Lots of good dogs being produced through out the USA.. Plus lots of good breeders right here on this bb!!


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## cafrhe (Nov 4, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

T Floyd does sometimes have working line/showline crosses. 2 members of my SAR team have litter mates. They describe their dogs as 'medium' drive. Both are working very well. One is also doing schutzhund.

I worked a bit with T this summer and really like him. He knows his dogs!!!

Good luck with your search!


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I would also give thumbs up for T. Floyd and Jim Hill in this area for Schh prospects. Jagermeister also has very competative dogs but I am not sure I would recommend them for a novice. Molly also gets a huge thumbs up









Cherri


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## Kedyr (Dec 22, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Wow, there are a lot of good breeders in the area, mainly in PA. NJ doesn't really have anyone I am considering, althought I will visit Carlos (Jeigermesiter) as he is only 20 minutes from me.

Here is my list so far. I will take the next week to pair it down some to get to a top 5. I can't visit them all!

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/ - May not have pup for novice like myself; depends on litter at the time. Highly recommended 

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/ - Again, might not have the right pup for a novice; depends on litter at the time. Highly recommended 

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/ - vom Eichenluft - Highly recommended and first kennel I really like the guarentee posted, especially around ethics about breed quality dogs (will not give full registration without proof the dog is suitable for breeding). 

http://www.wilmothdogs.com/WK9/ - Highly recommended - have not yet reached out to the breeder 

http://www.vomsilbersee.com/ - Again, highly recommended but have not reached out to the breeder 

http://www.vomrheinland.com/ - I have not received any references or recommendations on this breeder just yet, but came across her from pedigreedatabase message board. I really like the breeding program and gear towards german breeding standards and 'real' german shepherds. She is in MA so the drive will be a good 5 hours.

http://www.frauengarten.net/index.html - Again, highly recommended but have not yet reached out to them.

http://www.wolfstraum.net/ - Lee has provided a lot of feedback and insight to me and his dogs all appear to be top knotch. Drive is a good 5+ hours from me.

My top five so far:

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/

http://www.vomrheinland.com/

http://www.wolfstraum.net/

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I think you will find that many breeders have the same guarantee/warranty. Limited registration until proof of hips and title are also common. Also, you should examine your referring people for their experience in training for schutzhund and titling dogs. All too often, finding a pup is based on a popularity contest and second hand information. I also highly recommend checking how many and what siblings of a pup are doing - in the US we have 3 organizations where dogs can be titled, and all three of those organizations publish results of trials and shows. 

Personally, I will only recommend breeders whose ethics and integrity are proven and known personally, litters whose bloodlines and/or dogs themselves I know personally and then only after knowing more about the needs of the buyer. 

Also, as I mentioned, if you are joining a specific club, then the training director may have some direction he prefers as well.

Lee


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Good advice Lee!

Also wanted to add.. Find out what the breeders goals are with the particular breeding.. Look into what the breeders progeny are doing.. Talk w/the training directors..


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

http://www.njk9.com/gallery.html

http://www.jardogermanshepherds.com/


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Finding a breeder who you can trust to keep their word written or not and who has a good reputation is no easy task. I know some people on this forum that have spent years looking for the right breeder.

The problem is once you purchase your pup and plunk down your hard earned cash if you have a problem with your pup the breeder holds all the cards.

So take your time and visit the kennel and talk to people who have actually bought a dog from that breeder. Make doubly sure your comfortable with the breeder.

One other thing I would never do is buy a dog with a limited AKC regestration. What if you had to sell the dog for whatever reason? You will get all kinds of reasons for the breeder selling you the pup with a limited regestration. Think it thru and see if it makes sense for you.


A GSD pup cost a lot of money these days take your time and be 100% sure your comfortable with the breeder.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Sorry - responsible breeders use limited for just that reason - to make sure their dogs don't end up in some puppy mill or BYB 10 x 10 having litters over and over.

Today there is an ad on the database - FREE - first come, first serve - 2 females 2 & 4 years old - WITH PAPERS - each has had 2 litters - yea, right - whoever bred those two dogs didn't care too much what happened to them and the person who bought them doesn't either obviously. Sorry no cigar - no open papers on females until titled and hips done.

SORRY if this seems mean - right now I am just totally absolutely APPALLED at the uncaring callousness of that ad!!!!!!!

Lee


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

My suggestion is to take your time. I looked for months for a breeder and get references. I joined other GS forums to get an idea what certain breeders were like and their goals. 

Have an open mind about travelling out of state. I could have had my puppy flown home but didn't feel comfortable about it. Instead, I drove 9 hours one way to meet my breeder and pickup my pup because I thought he was awesome on the phone. No regrets.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Agree with Lee on the limited registration issue.

As far as


> Quote:What if you had to sell the dog for whatever reason?


Most breeders who really care about their dogs, and therefore many of those who employ limited registration, also have a First Right of Refusal clause in their contracts. The idea being that the new owner *can't* just sell the dog if they need to or want to. The breeder must be given opportunity to take the dog back, and either keep it or rehome it themselves. The breeder may allow the owner to sell the dog, but not without being involved in the process to help ensure that the dog will be in a good home, and that the breeder will at all times know where the dog is, who the dog is with, and be able to keep tabs on the dog.

If these terms mean losing a customer or two because that person feels they're unreasonable, or that once they pay for the dog it should be theirs free and clear to do with as they will, so be it. I know we've lost a couple customers over these issues because we won't budge on it. Oh well. Doesn't bother me. I don't want to just sell a dog and be done with it. And I'd much rather work with people who understand the reasons behind these stipulations, and who are willing to keep in touch with me and build a relationship with me. Not only have I made good friends that way, but it eases my mind to always know where our pups are and how they are doing, and I feel it certainly helps ensure that both dog and owners are happy long term. There are many other breeders who feel the same way and I'm sure they don't mind if clauses in their contract help weed out potential customers who wouldn't be willing to cooperate on those issues either.


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

DHau
Good for you I thought I drove a lot 4 hours to pick up my pup.
But it is absoultly essiential to see your new pup before you buy it no matter who the breeder is.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Chris elaborated and expressed many of my thoughts that I could not express due to my anger at the moment!

I have lost sales too over this - one to a friend who understood my reasons, says they will sell on limited as well for same reasons, LOL but would not BUY on limited! We are still friends too! Another friend who wanted one of my pups would not budge on it, and very sadly, passed away - which was always one of my arguements for the limited, so the dog does not just dissappear if something would happen to the owner. 

Lee

Lee


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Lee
You seem like a very responsibe breeder but not all breeders show that same responsibility.

From a consumers point of view a limited regestration gives all the power to the breeder. It's the big brother syndrome in spades.
In other words you have to do this or do that or get a Sch 1 before I will give you a full AKC regestration.
What if the husband or wife dies. The customer can't sell the dog without the breeder approving the sale and then the new customer gets a limited regestartion. I don't think so!!

I passed on many breeders because of limited regestration and I'm glad I did. I don't need a big brother in my life telling me what I can do and can not do after in some cases I have paid thousands of dollars for a GSD pup.
How many breeders will give back the total purchase price of the pup and say I'll take full responsibility for that pup?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I have done it twice. 

Personal circumstances in both customer's lives dictated a situation where one was in a bind/personal life status problem, and the other was pregnant and could not handle the working drive high energy female. Both people got full refunds, one dog had some really poor training that is detrimental long term, the other wasn't trained at all, and is now in a great working home - on limited registration. The first guy and I have been talking quite often in the past 2 weeks while we looked for a new pup for him and and I am still on friendly terms with the lady who had the baby, although I don't hear from her much now that kids have replaced dogs in her life. 

The whole point of controlling poor breeding practices and producing better quality dogs is that someone has to draw the line on breeding - AKC full registration and easy money are a big reason this breed is so fragmented, so problematical and so many dogs are rehomed and dumped. AKC does not equal breed worthy or valuable. Schutzhund may have it's holes, it's ways to mickey mouse through, and midnight trials, but overall, it is better than NOTHING. 

Personal responsiblity on my part - I will not encourage or condone irresponsible breeding done with dogs I am responsible for producing. Co-ownership seems to be a compromise, but, too often, I have seen that the person with the dog in hand does what they want irregardless of the co-owners wishes. Been there. Warned and ignored. Got burned 3 times now. I have lost sales to a few people over this issue, esp. on females. I respect the consumer side, but I just won't go there. It is a contract - not a control - power play. If you care enough to buy a pup from parents who are top caliber, who have all credentials, who are proven producer/s of pups with titles already, who are internationally known, world caliber bloodlines, then you should care enough about the integrity of the breed to follow suit. It is basically the equivilent of the SV's pink paper process - title & koer and you get registration on the progeny. 

Lee


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Lee
My daughter is a graduate student at dear old state Penn State in State College. One more year and she gets her PHD.
She has grown up with German Shepherds her whole life. This summer she moved to a 400 acre farm and wanted to get a GSD pup. She does a lot of field work and the pup would be pretty much a constant companion for her. I can't think of a better situation for a GSD pup to be in.
We looked around Pa. for breeders actually looked at your site and passed because of limited regestration.
She did most of the leg work and I flew out there to finalize everything.
She setteled on a local breeder near State College who is really big into training. 
My daughter loves her pup and she treats her like a queen.
Moral to the story the GSD pup may not have a european pedagree but she does have a full AKC regestration. The pup is exactly what my daughter wanted.
As far as I am concerened it's a perfect match.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I am glad you and your daughter are happy with her pup. Full or limited does not change the personality of the dog. I vaguely remember talking to someone working on a PhD up that way - may have been her. I don't know of anyone around State College with GSDs who has European dogs and trains...but there are so many people breeding GSDs around who have pups for sale, I don't know most of them who aren't into the SV style of breeding...Is she planning on breeding her or did she spay her?

Lee


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

She has no interest in breeding the puppy has been spayed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I don't think I'll every understand the thinking of the American puppy customer. 

People will talk ad nauseum about bad breeders, denouncing people breeding for profit and starting crusades against puppymills and BYBs. They'll bemoan the numbers of poorly bred dogs running around, and the difficulty of finding a quality GSD, and bash the AKC for having no regulations for breeding. They'll blame breeders for contributing to pet overpopulation, rake a breeder through the coals if one of their dogs ends up in a shelter or rescue or as breeding stock for a BYB, demand legislation to regulate breeders...

But then when breeders employ the devices that they do have at their disposal to keep track of their dogs and ensure the welfare of their dogs, and the breed as a whole, by doing what they can to prevent their dogs from ending up in shelters or in bad breeding programs, people will accuse the breeder of trying to run their lives and dictate what they can and cannot do with their property, call them being Big Brother, or say "oh, that's great, but *I* won't support that kind of breeder".

It's ok if a huge breed club like the SV sets forth strict breeding criteria, or encourages (and enforces) breeding and non-breeding contracts like the CKC does. But when the breeder has no outside agency to police these things and is forced to do what they can themselves to promote good breeding practices and ensure the welfare of their dogs, that's not ok.

Breeding sure is a no win situation.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: larrydee33
> What if the husband or wife dies. The customer can't sell the dog without the breeder approving the sale and then the new customer gets a limited regestartion. I don't think so!!


I'd expect in that situation the spouse would appreciate having a breeder who gave a rat's behind and would be willing to step in and help out finding the dog a new home, whether they got paid for the dog or not. 

And the dog is certainly going to fare better if it's left to a breeder who can take their time finding a new home, and who probably has better connections to do so and more experience matching people with dogs, than if it's fate is in the hands of a spouse who wants to get rid of the dog ASAP, is already depressed, stressed, busy with funeral arrangements and a slew of other pressing issues to take care of, and probably doesn't have the knowledge, contacts, or time and energy, to find the dog a really good home. Chances are if left with that spouse the dog would be sent home with the first person willing to take it, or just dropped off at a shelter. Much better for the welfare of the dog if the breeder was involved and did have to approve the sale.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Thanks Chris - I don't need to write all that out myself now! Ironically, this dog got spayed, so the breeding rights of the owner are a moot point! I have offered to hold papers until a spay is done instead. I have also sold a pup to someone who had been very ill, and heard some grumbling about why I would do that - yes, that was a bit of a problem ethically for me, but the owner and I and a mutual friend all discussed "what if" and there is a agreement if it ever it would come down to anything needing to be done. The owner is thrilled with the dog, it is giving her a reason to get up and go on with day to day living - and God forbid anything ever happening, the dog's future is provided for in either of two ways, both acceptable to me. I feel that I did a good thing for the person, and the dog too!!, in letting that pup go where it went. Limited ?? so what, I don't think the pup has even been transferred out of my name yet!

Lee


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Both Chris Wild and Wolfstraum are strictly looking at this from a breeders point of view not a consumers point of view.

Back in the day when a quality GSD puppy would cost you $300.00 to $500.00 that was one thing but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
This now has become a major investment. A breeder has every right to charge whatever they want for their puppies. A consumer can always pass.

But the consumer has very few rights sure we get a contract prepared by the breeder who holds all the cards.
You have to dance to the tune of the breeder and if their is a problem you are left to the whim of the breeder.
You can't even talk negative about a breeder on this forum no matter how true it is.
Sue a breeder yea right especially if they are out of state. Not going to happen.

Look on this forum everyday you see problems with breeders and who is left holding the bag in most cases the consumer.

No wonder it has taken some people on this forum years to find a breeder they can work with and trust.
The consumers problem is the more educated you are the more cautious you become.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Quote: But the consumer has very few rights sure we get a contract prepared by the breeder who holds all the cards.


I don't feel that way at all.. I feel I have all kinds of rights when it comes to my dog.. and yes they were purchased on a limited registration..

If anything the breeder I purchased my dogs from has been nothing but supportive to me.. even on the dumb decision's I might have made..

Even though my dogs are on a limited registration now, I can still compete with them.. It doesn't stop me from having fun with them!

I guess it's all in how you look at it!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

ahhh -Just putting the puppy owner in the role of a "consumer" is an indication of the philosophical differences - my pups are not "consumer goods" to be randomly or whimisically disposed of...they are living creatures and deserve to be owned by people who recognize that when you buy a pup from a concientiously idealistic breeder they are buying more than a warm body/livestock/property item.

Luckily for the consumers, maybe not so much for the pups, there are plenty of people who take the money and give you a pup and it is a done deal - consume away. If a consumer wants open papers, it is not all that hard to find a breeder who will give them to him.

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: larrydee33 but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
> This now has become a major investment.


But what about the breeder's investment in the pups? 
Not just money, but hours and hours and hours of researching lines, training and titling, years of experience and knowledge need to be taken into account also. You can't put a pricetag on integrity. 

larrydee, I'm sure that you and your daughter are very knowledgeable and responsible owners who make a life-time commitments to any dog they may adopt, but sadly, that is not true for everyone, and I think the breeder has the right to make sure that their dogs are not going to end up in the hands of a BYB as a puppy factory for someone else to make money on. Not only a right, but I'd also go as far as they have a personal responsibility in ensuring that any dog they are responsible for having been brought into this world isn't used in that way, churning out cute puppy after puppy, most of whom will end up in a shelter down the road. This holds true also to the pet-owner who might just want to breed "one or two litters, for fun", which is just as bad. Still a BYB in my book. 

A few years ago, I would not have understood much of this. Why spend $$$$$$$ on a puppy when I can get one out of the newspaper for 200$? I would have thought that all this titling business was elitist nonsense. I would have felt as you did, regarding limited registration, that the breeder was a control freak. 

However, after knowing more about these issues, I see things from a very different point-of view. I can see that the breeder will have invested tons more in time, effort, money, caring and personal integrity into each and every dog than whatever sum they sell them for. 

I can see how common the idea that breeding a dog for money, or for other reasons is. This is not something to be taken lightly, considering the number of poorly bred dogs out there, not to mention the well-bred dogs and tons of mixes dying in shelters everyday. 

I can see how a breeder, who is proud of their lines, proud of the end result of their work and effort and dedication, will want to avoid someone undoing all their hard work by breeding a dog from their lines willy-nilly, left and right, with no regards to health issues. 

So if you feel that the breeders out there are a bit too controling, it is because they have to be to ensure the well-being and safety of their dogs. A good breeder is willing to take on responsibility for the life-time of the puppy they have bred. Owners like yourself and your daughters are the minority. It is quite shocking how easily people will discard a dog when no longer convenient. And life being what it is, inconveniences pop up all the time, so most dogs don't have much of a chance at a long and healthy and STABLE and secure life. 

The more I read about what goes into good breeding, responsible ownership, and the plight of MILLIONS of dogs out there who have not been so lucky, the more I support breeders like Lee and Chris. 

And if it takes years for people to find a good breeder they can trust, that is because they are so few and far between. And the owners of dogs of breeders on this forum are never left holding the bag. When new people come on here with breeder problems, invariably, they are more likely a BYB type operation that no one has ever heard of.

But I'm just voicing my opinion, as others have. I'm not criticizing, we all have different stands on different issues. Varied opinions and different point of views make forums and discussions interesting, educating and eye-opening. I for one am glad that discussions such as this one start and evolve, because in the past I have learned a lot from them, and still learn from them on a daily basis.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Excellent post, Chris. It sure seems like we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

The fact that people THINK of dogs as consumer goods to be bought, sold, traded and disposed of because someone 'paid money' for them is the reason so many dogs end up in shelters, and the reason why puppy mills exist.

A dog is not the same as a card or a table. The 'owner' should not have the right to do whatever he/she wants with the dog just because he or she paid money for it. And a good breeder will always feel responsible for each and every dog they brought to the world... and will enforce that responsibility through a contact.

I for one would never support a breeder who sells their puppies WITHOUT limited registration or who sells pups to the highest bidder.


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Castlemaid
Very nice post it shows much thought and concern.
My problem is not so much the money issue once I agree to aprice that issue is setteled. It is more with breeder control.

I have had 5 German Shepherds in my life time I learned many things about this wonderful breed from each and every one.
All 5 of them led a full and healthy and happy life no matter what happened it was my responsibilty to see to that.

But to have a breeder tell me what I can or can not do with my dog is way over the top.
Some people might be fine with that but or me I feel that I am more than qualified to make any decision concerning my dog if I need the breeders advise I will ask for it.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: larrydee33Castlemaid
> Very nice post it shows much thought and concern.
> My problem is not so much the money issue once I agree to aprice that issue is setteled. It is more with breeder control.
> 
> ...


And why should any breeder entrust you with a puppy THEY brought to the world and let you do 'as you please'? Because you say you are qualified? So does every Tom, **** & Harry that goes to buy a puppy. They all feel 'qualified' to make decisions about their dogs, and while you may be qualified, most are NOT.

The contract is there to protect the DOG. It's there to make sure the dog doesn't end up in a puppy mill, or in the pound, because unfortunately, the vast majority of people who buy dogs are neither qualified nor knowledgeable to make those decisions, and breeders cannot possibly know whether the person they are selling the dog to is or isn't a good candidate based on their 'word.'


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: larrydee33Lee
> From a consumers point of view a limited regestration gives all the power to the breeder. It's the big brother syndrome in spades.
> In other words you have to do this or do that or get a Sch 1 before I will give you a full AKC regestration.
> What if the husband or wife dies. The customer can't sell the dog without the breeder approving the sale and then the new customer gets a limited regestartion. I don't think so!!


Jeez and after over 30 years with GSD`s I was totally mistaken. Seem`s to me it`s the breeders that care about improving the breed that apply certain restrictions. It`s their reputation on the line and this is a small world where reputation is everything. 
Perhaps some people consider a dog just property then I would agree. It`s just a consumer good so then the end user would have their discretion.
Thank God for breeders that will forgo a sale in the name of responsible breed stewardship.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag.

i commend any breeder for thouroughly questioning potential buyers, geting references and anything else they have to do to ensure their pup has a safe happy home with lots of stimulation, socialization, etc. even if it is a first time gsd owner, chances are if the breeder takes time to educate them, and the people seem open to all the information the breeder gives them, and the breeder is willing to be available for questions and concerns for first time buyers it can work. its gotta be a hard business to let pups go. but being in the business for any legth of time i am sure most breeders have a pretty good idea after talking to people who is going to be a good owner and who isn't.

debbie


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Am I missing something here? The only restriction in our contract is breeder has first right of refusal. How is that a bad thing? The contract also HELPS me, it lays out what happens in the event of something like hip dysplasia. I don't see how a breeder having that little bit of control is a bad thing. I have no interest in breeding (and apparently neither does larrydee). So I don't care about papers. I don't plan on ever having to give up my dog but if God forbid something happened to cause this (most likely it would be something happening to ME because I know my husband could not handle Flash on his own) I know Flash will be taken care of in the way he deserves to be taken care of. He will not end up unwanted and euthanized in a shelter. How in the world is any of this a bad thing?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

"the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag."

Depends. I posted this on another thread, I think..

People can and have told breeders anything . People can say they will work, show, etc the dog and ask for a top dog. References? They will only give you specific ones. And then, for whatever reason (changing situation, time, $$ or no inclination), it does not happen.

A questionaire does not give you a feeling - talking directly to the person does. Will it be a 100%? No, but a good (don't laugh) BS indicator for a certain section of people will help. Both Gabor and I talk to people. People talk differently to different people and you pick up more that way - good and not so good. We have turned donw people for stretching the truth - if they do that when looking into a pup, what else are they "stretching" about?

We send the contact for review and ask for questions.

But, when the person signs the contract - they are saying that they agree with that contract and it's contents. So, when the buyer does not follow the contract or something outside the contract (that they read and agreed to) happens, then what is the correct course?

I do not like co-ownerships. Had one. Breeder did nothing, no support/$$, nada, except claim credit for a dog that was not worked, titled and show by her.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

"the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag."

Depends. I posted this on another thread, I think..

People can and have told breeders anything . People can say they will work, show, etc the dog and ask for a top dog. References? They will only give you specific ones. And then, for whatever reason (changing situation, time, $$ or no inclination), it does not happen.

A questionaire does not give you a feeling - talking directly to the person does. Will it be a 100%? No, but a good (don't laugh) BS indicator for a certain section of people will help. Both Gabor and I talk to people. People talk differently to different people and you pick up more that way - good and not so good. We have turned donw people for stretching the truth - if they do that when looking into a pup, what else are they "stretching" about?

We send the contact for review and ask for questions.

But, when the person signs the contract - they are saying that they agree with that contract and it's contents. So, when the buyer does not follow the contract or something outside the contract (that they read and agreed to) happens, then what is the correct course?

I do not like co-ownerships. Had one. Breeder did nothing, no support/$$, nada, except claim credit for a dog that was not worked, titled and show by her.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: Nat
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: larrydee33Castlemaid
> ...


Totally agree here!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: lhczth Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.


Yup.







And as was said, if people don't like it they won't be hard pressed to find another breeder with terms they find more reasonable.



> Originally Posted By: jesusicaAm I missing something here? The only restriction in our contract is breeder has first right of refusal.


Actually, the main bone of contention seems to be limited registration. Most other common contractual terms haven't been discussed.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lhczth Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.
> ...


And I just don't understand it, especially since the dog was spayed!







What use is that full registration if the dog has been spayed? I don't understand why that would be a deal breaker given plans to NOT breed.







The poster also questioned why breeders should get the dog back instead of the owner being able to sell the dog on their own.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Oh, and also questioned restrictions in general and argued against contracts. Unfortunately that is the way most people feel, they have paid for the dog now they can do whatever they want to it and they should never have to hear from the breeders again. That is by far the prevailing view on non-dog boards.







They fail to realize the contract helps protect the buyer as well.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Question:

Of the breeders posting, who bought their dogs on limited registration?


I will answer 1st: we did/do not.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Other question:

If you keep a puppy back from your breeding and then later sell it, do you start (can you?) the puppy on limited? 

My understanding that once on a full registration, you can not change back to limited.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Quote:Of the breeders posting, who bought their dogs on limited registration?


No, never have. Even the breeders that normally require it have sold to me with full registration. I also sold my entire B litter with full registration since I knew the ethics of the people who got them. 



> Quote:If you keep a puppy back from your breeding and then later sell it, do you start (can you?) the puppy on limited?


No, I register the pup with full registration.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

I bought one dog on limited, titled, OFA and koered the dog. His papers were released.

The pups I register in my own name to assess and hang onto for a time, I usually put limited on...Furious, my ****** female is on limited. Males, I *may* put on open. And no, once the registration is done in "full", there is no AKC process to revert to limited. I have sold several older pups on limited, and released them to full as per the contract. I keep original signed releases in each sold dogs folder that I expect to be titled, with the contract, and a note that they can be processed if contract is fulfilled, in the event I die.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Quote:Of the breeders posting, who bought their dogs on limited registration?


A couple times, yes. And it was no problem. In one case as soon as the bitch got her OFAs and SchH title and breeder gladly and quickly signed over full registration. Others we washed out for whatever reason and rehomed to other people, transferring the limited registration to them. We've also purchased several without limited registration, because the breeder just didn't deal with limited registration or it was an older pup purchased from an individual who had the dog already on full registration.




> Quote:If you keep a puppy back from your breeding and then later sell it, do you start (can you?) the puppy on limited?


In the past, when we've fully intended to keep the pup ourselves long term, we registered on full registration. So if we did have to rehome the dog the full registration would go with it. That hasn't posed a problem yet as the only time we've rehomed pups we kept back ourselves was because they washed out due to Mild HD, so obviously they would never be breeding quality and in both of those cases they were spayed before being rehomed, so transferring the full registration wasn't an issue. 

Moving forward, whether we plan to keep the pup ourselves long term or we're just keeping the pup back to assess and grow out for a bit, and the intentions from the start are that we may or may not keep the pup even if it does grow out well, we'll put it on limited from the get go. That way there is no issue if we rehome it, and easy enough to switch to full if we decide to keep it. All the pups we've placed with co-owners have been on limited, even though the co-owner couldn't breed them without our sign off. It just covers the possibility that the pup may wash out and they decide to rehome it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

Just wanted to add... Like Lisa did with her B litter, I'd be willing to consider selling a pup on full registration to an experienced person who's ethics were well known either through reputation or because I knew them personally. Though the contract would still state no breeding before titles and OFAs. But for a novice, or someone I'm meeting for the first time as a potential customer and who doesn't have a sound reputation that proceeds them, it's limited registration or no puppy.

I have sold 2 pups to people who had 20+ years experience and had titled many dogs, both on limited because the new owners were fine with that and had no worries about it. To these people I'd have gone with full registration if they'd asked, but it wasn't an issue for them.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: larrydee33
> Back in the day when a quality GSD puppy would cost you $300.00 to $500.00 that was one thing but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
> This now has become a major investment.


An investment is something that generally goes up in value. Buy yourself a $2500 puppy and spay it and see what your investment is worth. Heck, don't spay it but let it be a pet for a couple of years and see what it is worth..... Not a very smart <u>investmen</u>t I am afraid.

If you buy a puppy that has limited registration but in the contract it is spelled out that you get full registration once ___________ happens (titles, hips x-rayed, etc etc) and the breeder dies? Well guess what? AKC can lift the limited registration. Seen it happen. Just save your contract.


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## Kedyr (Dec 22, 2007)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

For what it's worth, this consumer (and I don't even like that term in context of purchasing a pup to join my family) actually finds breeders who offer only limited registration (to new buyers) a responsible act. I believe this lends a certain credibility to the breeder that they care more about the breed/dog and less about the sale itself. This tells me the breeder is more likely to be honest, have integrity, have standards that the breed/pups meet, and is overall going to be more attractive for me.

I might change my mind on that as I continue to go through the process of finding and purchasing a pup, but so far I have an inclination for breeders who have responsible contracts vice breeders that are looking for a sale and want to walk away from the deal.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

But, the question still stands: what breeders do limited 100% of the time? 

Or is it subjective, depending on the situation -disqualifying faults such as long hair, missing testicals, etc, the ability and/or experience of the owner?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: Smithie86But, the question still stands: what breeders do limited 100% of the time?
> 
> Or is it subjective, depending on the situation -disqualifying faults such as long hair, missing testicals, etc, the ability and/or experience of the owner?


Thus far, we have done it 100% of the time on pups we've sold. The only exception has been on pups we kept ourselves, and we plan to change that moving forward just to eliminate possible problems if we have to rehome the dog because it doesn't work out.

There are cases where we'd be willing to consider not doing limited, but those are rare. And there are cases where no matter what we would never sell the pup without limited (such as coat, missing testicle, etc...)


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/
















http://www.vomsilbersee.com/














(If you are looking for German Show lines, Chris is awesome!)

http://www.wolfstraum.net/














(I believe Lee has a very nice litter right now)


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## AmyH24 (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*

http://www.wilmothdogs.com/WK9/ - Highly recommended - have not yet reached out to the breeder 

I have one of their dogs. He will be turning 1 at the end of this month. I love Kathy. She was helpful and extremely knowlegable. We made the tripout there form LBI area. He is very well mannered and a quick learn. We are training in Lakewood but I have thought about doing Sch. with him. The problem is everything is a haul. 

Wilmoth came reccomended from someone on this board and I have never been disappointed. Please feel free to PM me if needed.


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## gmgali (Jun 11, 2006)

*Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer*



> Originally Posted By: kutzro357http://www.njk9.com/gallery.html
> 
> http://www.jardogermanshepherds.com/


I am looking for a show line in nj, ny,ct, pa area.
I looked at jardo website.
The dogs are beautiful, but no titles.
Can you please tell what you know about them?
Thank you.
galina


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## Noles20 (Dec 27, 2011)

Lots of great info in this thread. My wife and I just said goodbye to our girl Jetta and we are planning for our next GSD.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

we also just lost our gsd., can't say we are ready for a pup yet. in my short time on this forum i have learned more about some breeders than i would learn by visiting their kennels by searching many of their posts and threads.


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