# Grain Free and Heart Problems?



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A friend's dog almost died during routine dental cleaning when her heart stopped. Two cardiologists have told the dog owner that they've seen heart problems associated with grain free kibbles. They think that certain key minerals (taurine was one) are not being absorbed properly, leading to heart problems that are not detectable except by a specialist.

It's so early, that very few vets, outside of specialists in cardiology, are seeing this connection, and no papers are published. 

The dog was on Origen, and is now eating a kibble with grain. 

I don't feed grain free food, but am wondering if anyone out there might know more about this? My understanding is that only canine cardiac specialists are seeing this so far, and that the research is in the very early stages. 

A few friend's younger dogs have died recently of "heart attack" and I am now wondering if this might be related to diet.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This is interesting do you think it’s the particular dog not being able to absorb taurine. I feed my dogs grain free kibble would like to know more.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I know UC Davis is doing a study on it. I believe there is a Facebook group dedicated to discussing taurine deficiency in goldens. It is being theorized that peas/legumes block the absorption of taurine.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wow I’m so greatful for this thread! Thank you! Would you have that Facebook group name. Time for a change.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I believe @carmspack made a reference about "Pea Protein" awhile back.


Grain Free equals Peas, Peas and More Peas ? Truth about Pet Food


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/about/


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/about/


Thanks for posting this! Saved me from having to find the group again, lol.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I was actually just going to post about this! I have a golden, so I’m over on the Golden Retriever Forum as well, and this is a big topic of discussion. Most members there are recommending Purina Pro Plan. Anyone have thoughts on that food? I know a lot of people say it’s low quality.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There was another article I had bookmarked, I'll have to see if I can dig it up.... 

They were onto a parallel problem way back in the 80's, with cat food. Changing the commercial formulas has almost entirely _eliminated_ the problem in domestic felines.... hopefully follow-up research and information in canines is forthcoming.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Very interesting. Unlike a cat whose body can not produce taurine and must get it from their diet (fun fact. A mouse has more taurine pound for pound than any other animal), dogs make their own taurine as we do. So where is this process being disrupted? And will supplementing help?

Just for the record, I've fed raw for years. I really feel the grain free food is an overpriced marketing gimmick driven by the fear created several years ago with the contaminated wheat.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've heard good things about ProPlan. Right now I feed Canidae All Life Stages, but I wouldn't rule out Pro Plan. 

I've known at least 3 healthy, younger dogs that dropped dead suddenly of heart problems, all eating quality grain free kibble. One was a full sister to my female. 

Very concerning, and a good enough reason for me to avoid grain free foods. I had no idea there was a link between heart problems and grain free kibble until I heard my friend's story yesterday. Her dog is a lab, the dogs I know who died of heart "attack" were malinois or shepherds.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Is it okay to link discussions on a different forum (golden retriever NOT a GSD forum) to this forum? @GypsyGhost


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/about/


Thanks for this!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Very concerning to me never impressed with results grain food at all but not worth the risk i suppose after hearing this with peas being a blocker interesting stuff.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm not sure whether I believe it's linked exclusively to grain/no grain.

Even though lots of kibble includes taurine (especially "better" quality kibble), AAFCO doesn't actually require ANY taurine in dog food. And while there are lots of valid arguments about how canines can self-synthesize, and the USDA has debated the quality of taurine in processed foods, I can't get past the fact that adding it to feline formulas has literally eliminated the resulting cardiac problems. And yet, zero is required for dog food. 

Most of us occasionally give our dogs meaty treats. Liver, chicken, chews, minimally processed dehydrated premium treats, you name it. Taurine, taurine, taurine. 

But IF all you ever fed your dog was a dry AAFCO approved food without added taurine, and IF the composition of squash/legume/pea/other filler inhibits taurine synthesis or absorption..... I suppose it doesn't sound surprising at all that development of taurine deficiency issues is a real possibility. 

I have a big pile of bookmarks on this, don't want to clog up this entire thread but I can pass them along to anyone interested.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> Is it okay to link discussions on a different forum (golden retriever NOT a GSD forum) to this forum? @GypsyGhost


Yes. As long as it is not to another GSD forum, you can post links.



> 19. Since germanshepherds.com relies on advertising revenue to function, posting links other dedicated Germans Shepherd Dog discussion boards, either in the body of a post, or in one's signature is not allowed and will be removed.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm not sure whether I believe it's linked exclusively to grain/no grain.
> 
> Even though lots of kibble includes taurine (especially "better" quality kibble), AAFCO doesn't actually require ANY taurine in dog food. And while there are lots of valid arguments about how canines can self-synthesize, and the USDA has debated the quality of taurine in processed foods, I can't get past the fact that adding it to feline formulas has literally eliminated the resulting cardiac problems. And yet, zero is required for dog food.
> 
> ...


 I would be interested as now I’m concerned with those legumes blocking the any taurine from their dry food, their fresh meat and or dehydrated meat they get and taurine they produce. Interesting to see taurine levels can be tested in dogs it’s good to know.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> Yes. As long as it is not to another GSD forum, you can post links.


Great, thanks.

Here is a discussion on DCM in goldens:
Study on Low Taurine, Grain Free Foods and DCM in Goldens - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

Lots of discussion about which foods should be okay, and lots of speculation.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Various members on this forum, one a highly respected breeder, shows her dogs, and actively hunts to title her goldens, recommends Purina Pro Plan. It's so hard to know what to feed!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> I would be interested as now I’m concerned with those legumes blocking the any taurine from their dry food, their fresh meat and or dehydrated meat they get and taurine they produce. Interesting to see taurine levels can be tested in dogs it’s good to know.


The thing is.... there is tons and tons of info about taurine from reasonably credible sources.

_But_, all the info out there right now about the relationship between legumes : taurine seems anecdotal at best. Lots of "maybes". I had a cat with cardiac problems a while ago, and that's what set me off on this.... My cat's problems ended up being unrelated to diet, but the things I read made me question dog food formulas.

Some of the info out there ~ 

AAFCO has zero minimum requirement for taurine in canine formulas. 
https://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/Sit...osed_Revisions_to_AAFCO_Nutrient_Profiles.pdf

Feline diet supplementation (from back before taurine was required in commercial cat food)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1500324

USDA discussion about synthetic taurine/classification, effectiveness.
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Amino Acid Pet Food Formal Rec.pdf

AAFCO recently added taurine as an acceptable component for aquaculture (fish food) formulas, because it does increase vigor (_and yet_ - zero is required in canine formulas?)
https://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/news/features/nwfsc_wins_aafco_approval/index.cfm
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044848614006292

Limited study on taurine status in dogs (fed diet including beet pulp, rice)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4971673/

What happens to taurine when you "cook" (process it)
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wibackpacker- yes i see. I had just found this regarding it linked to rice and high fiber. Thank you for the links!!!! https://www.morrisanimalfoundation....anding-dietary-taurine-and-heart-disease-dogs
I


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This thread is very interesting. THK's Preference base-mix has pea in it too -- I'm going to call them to discuss.  There's no need for that ingredient -- protein is provided by the added meat in the THK diet. Interestingly, Sojo's base mix does not have peas in it (but it does have flax, so pick your troublesome ingredient, I guess).

Even for kibble fed dogs, the chart in the paper about the effect of cooking on Taurine (linked by WI Backpacker above) seems to support the idea of feeding dried beef organ treats -- even "baked" (which I would analogize to drying), those things are still packed with taurine in some cases (though less than raw) -- dried beef gullet, liver, and lung are all readily available as dried treats at Bestbullysticks.com. 

There's also an OTC supplement that one of my vets recommends for heart-compromised dogs: 
https://www.vetriscience.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=900631090


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm finding this topic quite fascinating. I'm wondering what impact will be seen in the next few years due to recent changes in pet food formulas over the last few years. We had the arsenic in rice data come forward and almost all dog food companies rapidly change their formulas away from rice to pea/legume protein as a filler and to cheaply increase protein content. Now there may be a problem with pea/legume formulas. Sad to say but I feel like the dog food industry is going the same way of the human food industry. Carbs are good...carbs are bad. Eat high protein...don't eat high protein. This food is great...wait no it's not. Drink coffee...no don't...yes do??? We don't really have a clue.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Springbrz said:


> I'm finding this topic quite fascinating. I'm wondering what impact will be seen in the next few years due to recent changes in pet food formulas over the last few years. We had the arsenic in rice data come forward and almost all dog food companies rapidly change their formulas away from rice to pea/legume protein as a filler and to cheaply increase protein content. Now there may be a problem with pea/legume formulas. Sad to say but I feel like the dog food industry is going the same way of the human food industry. Carbs are good...carbs are bad. Eat high protein...don't eat high protein. This food is great...wait no it's not. Drink coffee...no don't...yes do??? We don't really have a clue.


 Very Well said.....a never ending issue for years.....what's perfect and healthy today.....is borderline poison tomorrow


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

THK has no plans to remove peas from Preference at this time, but they're taking note and forwarding suggestions. Their Kindly mix doesn't have peas, but it does have a lot of flax. :/ 

Sojo's grain-free base mix has no peas, but it does have flax. Their grain-in (oat) pre-mix has no flax _or _peas, for dogs that tolerate oats well.

I think this might be the only base-mix without peas and flax...at TWICE the cost of THK (!!!): 
https://www.drharveys.com/products/dogs/450-paradigm-a-green-superfood-pre-mix


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Magwart said:


> THK has no plans to remove peas from Preference at this time, but they're taking note and forwarding suggestions. Their Kindly mix doesn't have peas, but it does have a lot of flax. :/
> 
> Sojo's grain-free base mix has no peas, but it does have flax. Their grain-in (oat) pre-mix has no flax _or _peas, for dogs that tolerate oats well.
> 
> ...


It has always baffled me why THK feels the need to up the protein content on their base mix... actually, I don’t really understand why they include potatoes and/or peas in their complete formulas, either. Other than cost, that is. 

FWIW, I’ve used the Dr. Harvey’s Paradigm and I felt it gave much better results than I ever saw while using THK Preference. It worked wonders for my allergy/IBD dog when I had access to venison and alpaca for him. It’s the only thing he has ever tolerated other than HPP commercial raw. Expensive as all get out, though.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

GypsyGhost said:


> FWIW, I’ve used the Dr. Harvey’s Paradigm and I felt it gave much better results than I ever saw while using THK Preference. It worked wonders for my allergy/IBD dog when I had access to venison and alpaca for him. It’s the only thing he has ever tolerated other than HPP commercial raw. Expensive as all get out, though.


That's great to hear. I tried the Veg-to-Bowl from Dr. Harvey's last year, and it didn't work well for us, I think due to the flax. I think the store near me carries Paradigm, so I might pick up a bag and see how it feeds out. We've had good luck with the Preference for him, but I really hate paying $50/box for a high quantity of peas. He's getting older, so the Paradigm might be a good thing to switch to anyway, since we're getting into the "danger years" with cancer.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Magwart said:


> That's great to hear. I tried the Veg-to-Bowl from Dr. Harvey's last year, and it didn't work well for us, I think due to the flax. I think the store near me carries Paradigm, so I might pick up a bag and see how it feeds out. We've had good luck with the Preference for him, but I really hate paying $50/box for a high quantity of peas. He's getting older, so the Paradigm might be a good thing to switch to anyway, since we're getting into the "danger years" with cancer.


Neither of my GSDs do well with flax, which eliminates a lot of food options. And my IBD dog absolutely cannot have peas/legumes. I was pleasantly surprised that they both did extremely well on Paradigm. I think it’s worth the cost if you have a dog with health issues or food sensitivities. “Output” was good for both of them, as well. I did email the company and ask if adding bone would cause issues, and they said RMBs or ground bone were fine to give with Paradigm. They just said not to add liver, as to not cause vitamin A toxicity. It stays in my rotation when I can get the proteins my boy tolerates.


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## Bremen (Aug 4, 2018)

*FDA Response to Potential Link Between Diet and Canine Heart Disease*

The FDA released an official statement underscoring the importance of this issue. Although GSD is not one of the "more frequently affected" breeds, it is better to be safe than sorry IMO.

This is my first post so it wont let me attach a link until I have posted 3 times...


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

So what to do???? Adding supplements or giving extras that contain taurine is all well and good, but not if the legumes somehow block the absorption. 

I have been using Wellness but if I look at the log in the FB page, Wellness has been having dogs come up with low taurine levels. I just ordered Victor which if it doesn't cause any digestive or itchiness issues, is what I will use. Less expensive than Wellness and doesn't contain any peas etc.

It was suggested on the FB page to get taurine levels tested before switching to another food. That makes sense but I can't help but feel like I am feeding my dogs poison....

How many GSD owners on here feed grain free? How many have dogs come down with DCM? Wondering just how affected GSDs are by this.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

katdog5911 said:


> So what to do???? Adding supplements or giving extras that contain taurine is all well and good, but not if the legumes somehow block the absorption.
> 
> I have been using Wellness but if I look at the log in the FB page, Wellness has been having dogs come up with low taurine levels. I just ordered Victor which if it doesn't cause any digestive or itchiness issues, is what I will use. Less expensive than Wellness and doesn't contain any peas etc.
> 
> ...


Shadow is on grain free, has been since about 1 year old(8 now) and had a bad heart to start with. I cannot tell you how scared and frustrated I am right now. I recently switched her to Acana, which looks like one of the potential offenders. 
I have not had her tested and I don't think I will because frankly I don't want to know, but at this rate she is going back on Pedigree. 
I was told that with a bad heart, allergies and bad skin grain free was safer and healthier for her. I have done everything I possible could to keep her healthy and totally agree with you, I feel like I have been poisoning my dog.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow is on grain free, has been since about 1 year old(8 now) and had a bad heart to start with. I cannot tell you how scared and frustrated I am right now. I recently switched her to Acana, which looks like one of the potential offenders.
> I have not had her tested and I don't think I will because frankly I don't want to know, but at this rate she is going back on Pedigree.
> I was told that with a bad heart, allergies and bad skin grain free was safer and healthier for her. I have done everything I possible could to keep her healthy and totally agree with you, I feel like I have been poisoning my dog.


It really is so frustrating. I was thinking of testing my 2 but maybe I will just go ahead and switch foods. I have had my share of food trials with my 7 yr old....she has had itchiness since she was young...even did raw for a few years. And my 2 yr old was tested last year for EPI (which was negative) but probably had SIBO. Several months of diarrhea and weight loss was not fun. It was treated and now he is doing well. I hate to change food when both are doing so nicely on it but I will give Victor Hi Pro Plus a try and hope not to see hot spots, itching, and diarrhea again.....


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'd forgotten about this thread. FWIW, I've been having an interesting email conversation with Dr. Harvey/Paradigm. They're pretty responsive and helpful. I'm about to start transitioning from THK to Dr. Harvey's -- the limbal melanoma we had removed this summer tells it's past time. I like Paradigm's ingredient list a lot more than THK's...though my dog will miss his liver treats! I will supplement Taurine with it though.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Magwart said:


> I'd forgotten about this thread. FWIW, I've been having an interesting email conversation with Dr. Harvey/Paradigm. They're pretty responsive and helpful. I'm about to start transitioning from THK to Dr. Harvey's -- the limbal melanoma we had removed this summer tells it's past time. I like Paradigm's ingredient list a lot more than THK's...though my dog will miss his liver treats! I will supplement Taurine with it though.


I’ve also seen way better results with Dr. Harvey’s than I did with THK. Their Paradigm formula is the best base mix on the market, I think.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Did you comply with Dr. Harvey's added oil recommendation (5 tsp/day)? 



I often feed 80/20 (or even 70/30, if we've gone through a weight loss cycle at the, due to not eating during vet stays and surgery recovery), so I'm thinking I'm going to add less extra fat than he suggests. KetoPet Sanctuary says 70/30 is optimum fat/protein for cancer dogs on their protocol, which got me thinking it's PLENTY as their protocol is a very high fat diet. I'm slightly annoyed that Dr. Harvey doesn't have a way to scale the added fat to the % fat in the meat -- his response was basically, "You know your dog best."


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Did you comply with Dr. Harvey's added oil recommendation (5 tsp/day)?
> 
> 
> 
> I often feed 80/20 (or even 70/30, if we've gone through a weight loss cycle at the, due to not eating during vet stays and surgery recovery), so I'm thinking I'm going to add less extra fat than he suggests. KetoPet Sanctuary says 70/30 is optimum fat/protein for cancer dogs on their protocol, which got me thinking it's PLENTY as their protocol is a very high fat diet. I'm slightly annoyed that Dr. Harvey doesn't have a way to scale the added fat to the % fat in the meat -- his response was basically, "You know your dog best."


I did, mostly. Sometimes I’d add less oil if I was feeding a particularly fatty meat (lamb trim, for example) or sardines. I rotate it in to my girl’s feeding schedule, and plan to do the same with my puppy once he reaches a year old. My boy tolerates rotating Paradigm in fairly well, but only with llama or alpaca meat, which I can’t always get (he has IBD). I stick to the oil recommendations for him, as his protein options are low fat to begin with. I haven’t fed it in a couple of months, but I’m planning on ordering again soon. 

I did use it for a while with my senior (who had cancer) before she passed away last year. I stuck to the oil recommendations for her regardless of what meat I was feeding.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Most of the foods recommended on this forum are not available in Canada, and raw is absolutely not an option. Not just because I am broke and unemployed but also because for probably the next year or two I will be living in a travel trailer.
It is unbelievably frustrating to try and feed a healthy food when things like this keep happening.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Magwart said:


> Did you comply with Dr. Harvey's added oil recommendation (5 tsp/day)?
> 
> 
> 
> I often feed 80/20 (or even 70/30, if we've gone through a weight loss cycle at the, due to not eating during vet stays and surgery recovery), so I'm thinking I'm going to add less extra fat than he suggests. KetoPet Sanctuary says 70/30 is optimum fat/protein for cancer dogs on their protocol, which got me thinking it's PLENTY as their protocol is a very high fat diet. I'm slightly annoyed that Dr. Harvey doesn't have a way to scale the added fat to the % fat in the meat -- his response was basically, "You know your dog best."



I am trying to drop 10 pounds off my girl and she doesn't eat a lot. I wonder how this would work if I did a 1/2 portion of this and 1/2 of the Orijen Light and Fit


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