# Won't Respond to E-Collar



## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I started Ammo on an e-collar today, well kind of. I went out and tried to find a working level I was never able to find one. I watched him super close but he never responded. I stopped before I got it to high, around 30 (it's a dogtra collar). He never flinched, blinked, nothing. I tried on pavement, in the pack yard, and even in the house. At one point he even went to sleep. 

I know it's working. I have tested it on myself and when I got around 30 on him I could see his muscles twitch. I did get a response from him when I used the pager button, it vibrates on his neck. He is actually minding pretty good with just the pager button. I'm just not sure if it would work when he gets excited. 

Can someone please help me out with this? Should I just keep turning up the power? Should I just use the pager button? Has anyone had a dog that wouldn't respond to one? What do I do? Help!


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

brush his neck to get as much undercoat out as possible and move the probeds around and try to get them to contact skin and not have a bunch of hair underneath.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

A couple questions. Have you conditioned him to the collar? Or did you just slap it on and go? No that doesnt really matter to you your question about him responding, I'm just curious. 

Do you have the long contacts on it? What model specifically? Not all are the same. Is it high up on his neck and tight?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why do you need an e-collar?



OUbrat79 said:


> I started Ammo on an e-collar today, well kind of. I went out and tried to find a working level I was never able to find one. I watched him super close but he never responded. I stopped before I got it to high, around 30 (it's a dogtra collar). He never flinched, blinked, nothing. I tried on pavement, in the pack yard, and even in the house. At one point he even went to sleep.
> 
> I know it's working. I have tested it on myself and when I got around 30 on him I could see his muscles twitch. I did get a response from him when I used the pager button, it vibrates on his neck. He is actually minding pretty good with just the pager button. I'm just not sure if it would work when he gets excited.
> 
> ...


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> A couple questions. Have you conditioned him to the collar? Or did you just slap it on and go? No that doesnt really matter to you your question about him responding, I'm just curious.
> 
> Do you have the long contacts on it? What model specifically? Not all are the same. Is it high up on his neck and tight?


I am working on conditioning him to it but I get absolutely no response with him. I have the dogtra 1900. I start at 1 and work slowly up. The contacts are fairly long, I'm not sure if they are the longest ones though. I have it placed as high as I can on his neck and tight, on one side. 

I have spent a lot of time researching e-collars and learning to use them properly before I bought one.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> why do you need an e-collar?


We are moving into a house without a fence and I need to train him to a reliable recall. I have spent a lot of time researching and learning how to correctly use one. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How long are the contacts? they may not be making contact. I had problems with 1/2" contacts. I think the ones I have now are 3/4"

I'm surprised you didn't have a strong response yourself at 30. At 20, I accidentally threw mine across the room.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OUbrat79 said:


> I am working on conditioning him to it but I get absolutely no response with him. I have the dogtra 1900. I start at 1 and work slowly up. The contacts are fairly long, I'm not sure if they are the longest ones though. I have it placed as high as I can on his neck and tight, on one side.
> 
> I have spent a lot of time researching e-collars and learning to use them properly before I bought one.
> 
> ...


 
By conditioning, I just ment putting the collar on for a period of time without it ever being turned on. My dogs will wear it for a month or two before ever getting a correction. Thanks for answering and not taking that question in a snarky way 

When using an e-collar you don't need to see the dog convulsing on the floor to know it's working (exageration I dont think thats what you're doing). If your getting the desired result with the vibration then I would ride that as long as you can. The 1900 is a big collar. I wouldn't imagine your dog needs too much. Make sure the contacts are on skin and go from there. Just remember the best e-collar trainers I have ever seen you couldn't even tell the dog was getting corrected. Just enough to get the desired result. I'm sure you have studied this, just making sure. It's so easy to get frustrated and crank it up.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> How long are the contacts? they may not be making contact. I had problems with 1/2" contacts. I think the ones I have now are 3/4"
> 
> I'm surprised you didn't have a strong response yourself at 30. At 20, I accidentally threw mine across the room.


^This
Heidi had the little 280 for a while and even durring protection we didn't go past 8. Although her previous owner lit her up so she just needs a reminder that it's there.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

OUbrat79 said:


> I know it's working. I have tested it on myself and *when I got around 30 on him I could see his muscles twitch.*


:thinking: Isn't that a response?


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Isn't that a response?


I am looking for a voluntary response. When his muscle twitched he was not responding in any way. The muscle twitch was an involuntary response. 


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> How long are the contacts? they may not be making contact. I had problems with 1/2" contacts. I think the ones I have now are 3/4"
> 
> I'm surprised you didn't have a strong response yourself at 30. At 20, I accidentally threw mine across the room.


When I got it to thirty on me I could definitely feel it. That's why I didn't want to go higher with him. 


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> By conditioning, I just ment putting the collar on for a period of time without it ever being turned on. My dogs will wear it for a month or two before ever getting a correction. Thanks for answering and not taking that question in a snarky way
> 
> When using an e-collar you don't need to see the dog convulsing on the floor to know it's working (exageration I dont think thats what you're doing). If your getting the desired result with the vibration then I would ride that as long as you can. The 1900 is a big collar. I wouldn't imagine your dog needs too much. Make sure the contacts are on skin and go from there. Just remember the best e-collar trainers I have ever seen you couldn't even tell the dog was getting corrected. Just enough to get the desired result. I'm sure you have studied this, just making sure. It's so easy to get frustrated and crank it up.


I wasn't sure what you meant by conditioning. He hasn't really worn it a lot. I just got it. 

I do have a question for you. When I had it up higher and his muscle twitched does that mean it is getting a good connection or could it cause that without him really filling it on his neck? 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OUbrat79 said:


> I am looking for a voluntary response. When his muscle twitched he was not responding in any way. The muscle twitch was an involuntary response.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are looking for something as slight as an ear flick. 

When I had that little 280 I had on 20 and put it on my arm, my INvoluntary reaction was to throw my arm, tossing it across the room and convincing my husband that I did indeed need psychiatric intervention.

I think it's not making a proper connection if you can get it up to 30 and only get a muscle twitch.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OUbrat79 said:


> I wasn't sure what you meant by conditioning. He hasn't really worn it a lot. I just got it.
> 
> I do have a question for you. When I had it up higher and his muscle twitched does that mean it is getting a good connection or could it cause that without him really filling it on his neck?
> 
> ...


 
I would assume he's getting good contact but I would still check your contacts to make sure. Most collars come with two sets of contacts. You will need the longer ones. I think they are the 3/4 inch as stated. Also the collar needs to be tight. After it's on for a while check it to make sure it's tight. One of my dog's will puff her neck out when getting the collar on so that it's actually loose(smart PITA). Without seeing it, I can't think of anything else. 

How esle have you trained the recall? How are you planning to use it to make it clear to the dog why it's getting corrected?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> When I had that little 280 I had on 20 and put it on my arm, my INvoluntary reaction was to throw my arm, tossing it across the room and convincing my husband that I did indeed need psychiatric intervention.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Bwahahahahaha I love it! When we got ours, Kiersten made me test it out. Now I'm worried that she will put it on me when I'm sleeping and use it if I don't do the dishes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > When I had that little 280 I had on 20 and put it on my arm, my INvoluntary reaction was to throw my arm, tossing it across the room and convincing my husband that I did indeed need psychiatric intervention.
> ...


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> How esle have you trained the recall? How are you planning to use it to make it clear to the dog why it's getting corrected?


He has a very nice "formal" recall, stay till I call him. He is not so good at it when we are playing and he doesn't want to come to me. I have done a lot of on lead training with him, but had always worried about him being off leash. 

I have started using Lou Castle's training technic. Guiding him with a leash to help him understand what response will make the stimulation go away. He has learning it very quick with the pager button. As soon as I touch it he turns around and walks back to me, even in the back yard where he normally wouldn't come. He has proven to be very quick on understanding how to make his next stop vibrating, he really doesn't like it. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OUbrat79 said:


> He has a very nice "formal" recall, stay till I call him. He is not so good at it when we are playing and he doesn't want to come to me. I have done a lot of on lead training with him, but had always worried about him being off leash.
> 
> I have started using Lou Castle's training technic. Guiding him with a leash to help him understand what response will make the stimulation go away. He has learning it very quick with the pager button. As soon as I touch it he turns around and walks back to me, even in the back yard where he normally wouldn't come. He has proven to be very quick on understanding how to make his next stop vibrating, he really doesn't like it.
> 
> ...


 
Good! It sounds like you have done your research.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Good! It sounds like you have done your research.


I really have. I was so worried about causing damage with it that I wanted to make sure I did everything the right way. 

I actually had a guy, not a trainer, tell me to turn it up and shock him good with it once so he knew what kind of power it had. I had to bite my tongue and not say what I wanted to. 


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> By conditioning, I just ment putting the collar on for a period of time without it ever being turned on. My dogs will wear it for a month or two before ever getting a correction. Thanks for answering and not taking that question in a snarky way
> 
> When using an e-collar you don't need to see the dog convulsing on the floor to know it's working (exageration I dont think thats what you're doing). If your getting the desired result with the vibration then I would ride that as long as you can. The 1900 is a big collar. I wouldn't imagine your dog needs too much. Make sure the contacts are on skin and go from there. Just remember the best e-collar trainers I have ever seen you couldn't even tell the dog was getting corrected. Just enough to get the desired result. I'm sure you have studied this, just making sure. It's so easy to get frustrated and crank it up.


Yup, i did the same thing, slap in on over a month before doing anything.
Best is to hire a trainer


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I trained my dog to an ecollar, the stim went up when the proofing stages began. If he was in a higher state of drive, he ignored the level that previously had him thinking. 
I try to make sure the level is appropriate for the state of drive my dog is in, and don't nag, yet don't go to the unfair level. If I ever feel frustrated, I won't even touch the remote. 
When we are doing outs down field, my helper is the one using the remote. I want to be fair at all times. 
And timing is everything!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

OUbrat79 said:


> I really have. I was so worried about causing damage with it that I wanted to make sure I did everything the right way.
> 
> I actually had a guy, not a trainer, tell me to turn it up and shock him good with it once so he knew what kind of power it had. I had to bite my tongue and not say what I wanted to.
> 
> ...


If he has a mind of his own, or any kind of drive he will need to feel the power of "god" at some point. Teaching stage is one thing, but as Onyx said when you add distractions and excitement into the mix sooner or later he will try to blow you off. 

I use a dogtra surestim and my working level is 21 most dogs I have used it on are 20-23, distractions/drive 25-30. Rabbit, 65 on one dutchie..lol. It didnt stop her from trying it again and she was a super soft submissive dog.

Check tightness I find most people dont snug it up as much as they should so they dont get the best contact. You shouldnt be able to get more then one finger under the collar. You can also try the HAWX strap which allows alot of tightness with flexibility.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get a professional trainer FAMILAR with using remotes, show you and calibrate it to your dog. You don't have the knowledge or understanding of the principles to use this tool effectively....even if you get a response from you dialogue you will run into additional problems in progressing forward.
Plus you have a powerful tool and need hands on instruction for this level, jmo!


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

The e-collar is a fantastic training tool when used correctly, nothing can compare with a wireless correction. 

They are great to tweak responses after the dog has the concept of what you are training and or stopping unwanted behavior. 

Use the long prongs and have the collar tight to the point where you can just get 2 fingers between the prongs and the skin. 

I like to train from both ends, rewards and praise for good behavior along with swift and sure consequences for bad behavior.

Assuming your collar and transmitter are working fine along with the prongs being in contact with the skin, you will see a reaction.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I worked with Ammo today and found a working level. It's pretty high though, 27. He over reacts a little to it but when I try lower he won't respond at all. I think he's just a little hard headed. If he is distracted by something I have to move it up to 33 to get a response from him. I'm hoping with more work I will be able to move those numbers down. 

Before anyone gets upset about the numbers being to high, I am following advice given by LouCastle. He has been helping me with how to properly use the collar. 


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

OUbrat79 said:


> I worked with Ammo today and found a working level. It's pretty high though, 27. He over reacts a little to it but when I try lower he won't respond at all. I think he's just a little hard headed. If he is distracted by something I have to move it up to 33 to get a response from him. I'm hoping with more work I will be able to move those numbers down.
> 
> Before anyone gets upset about the numbers being to high, I am following advice given by LouCastle. He has been helping me with how to properly use the collar.
> 
> ...


By the sound of your last sentence it sounds like you have contacted lou (if not you should, he is great at getting back with ya!) he usually does a great job explaining things, he will solve all of the issues your having.
Wow your boy has a high tolerance! Celia's working is 10 and up to 15 in distractions. I cant even feel these levels! I use the pager as an avoidance correction, as she responds more dramatically to it so i only use it for certain situations. And as for the first time getting the e-collar stories, when i first opened the package and took it out, i cranked it up to 60, pressed the stim button, and yes, i also threw it xD


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

maureen_mickel said:


> By the sound of your last sentence it sounds like you have contacted lou (if not you should, he is great at getting back with ya!) he usually does a great job explaining things, he will solve all of the issues your having.
> Wow your boy has a high tolerance! Celia's working is 10 and up to 15 in distractions. I cant even feel these levels! I use the pager as an avoidance correction, as she responds more dramatically to it so i only use it for certain situations. And as for the first time getting the e-collar stories, when i first opened the package and took it out, i cranked it up to 60, pressed the stim button, and yes, i also threw it xD


I do have regular contact with him. He has helped me a lot. I am starting to get a bigger reaction out of the 27. Yesterday I had it down to 23 with him responding. Although he went to inspect a dog and I had to turn it back up to get a reaction. 

He freaks out over the pager. It's actually kind of funny, I get this huge reaction when he is doing something wrong and I punch the pager button to get his attention. I told my husband we should have just bought him a cell phone. 


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

OUbrat79 said:


> I started Ammo on an e-collar today, well kind of. I went out and tried to find a working level I was never able to find one. I watched him super close but he never responded. I stopped before I got it to high, around 30 (it's a dogtra collar). He never flinched, blinked, nothing. I tried on pavement, in the pack yard, and even in the house. At one point he even went to sleep.
> 
> I know it's working. I have tested it on myself and * when I got around 30 on him I could see his muscles twitch. * I did get a response from him when I used the pager button, it vibrates on his neck. He is actually minding pretty good with just the pager button. I'm just not sure if it would work when he gets excited.


The most common problem that people have with the Ecollar, when they think that their dog is not getting a stim, is poor contact. That can be due to a loose strap or contact points that are too short. (Other times, they've forgotten to turn both the RX and the TX on – (I've done this a couple of times, it's not just a rookie mistake ... or perhaps I'm still a rookie). 

But since you're seeing the muscle twitch it's apparent that your issue is none of these. Since this is a GSD forum, I'll assume that's what you have. It's pretty unusual that he's not showing any of the classic responses, GSD's are usually such drama queens. In any case, he feels the muscle twitch, even if he's not showing the classic signs. Think of you having some sort of involuntary muscular twitch. You can feel it and it's not pleasant. 

I'd turn the stim as low as you can and still see the slightest twitch, and go to work. If you don't see a change in behavior in the first 10-20 leash pulls when teaching the recall, go two numbers higher. I sometimes tap the pager button when this problem comes up, and that seems to "wake up" the dog to the stim and then you can proceed "normally." 

I don't recommend using the vibration for either teaching or correcting after the behaviors are learned. It frightens some dogs, until you condition them to it. It's not adjustable so if the dog ignores it in a distracting situation, you can't turn it up. And if you train with it and the dog blows you off in that distracting situation, you can't transition to the stim, because he's not been trained what it means.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Isn't that a response?


DING DING DING .......... Winnah.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> When I trained my dog to an ecollar, the stim went up when the proofing stages began. If he was in a higher state of drive, he ignored the level that previously had him thinking.


This is the case with any tool/method. When the dog is distracted, he needs more power, whether that power comes in the form of a stim, a leash correction, or a positive reward.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

OUbrat79 said:


> I do have regular contact with him. He has helped me a lot. I am starting to get a bigger reaction out of the 27. * Yesterday I had it down to 23 with him responding. * Although he went to inspect a dog and I had to turn it back up to get a reaction.


This is pretty common. Some dogs become sensitized to the stim and you can go lower and lower. You also learn to read the dog better and learn to use the stim level that's as low as he can feel. 



OUbrat79 said:


> *He freaks out over the pager. *


This response says that it's too aversive for him. There's no reason to frighten your dog. Stick with the stim, he knows how to control that. He knows that he has to do something (and what that something is) to make it stop. He does not know that with the pager. He's moving towards you for protection from something scary.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Dont feel bad about the high stim levels, my dogs working level without high distraction is anywhere from 23-27, and with distractions, so far we have been up to 35.  I have not heard a single peep out of him though, it does NOT hurt him (I stimmed myself at the same levels too LOL). But I can see how its uncomfortable to him. I followed Lou Castles protocol with finding the working level, and am following his protocol with recall and sit, and down. It has worked wonderfully thus far, and I do not see any adverse reactions from using the e-collar.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I had to get longer contacts than the original ones. Made a world of difference. And I have to adjust the stim level to coincide with the drive or distraction level of my dog. We are usually under 20 on the Dogtra IQ. That is with no distractions. We have gone up to 45 when she is really distracted or focused on something else. I accidentally had it up to 100 once....definitely got her attention...I felt terrible. Still feel awful when I think about it. Fortunately she seems to have gotten over it and doesn't seem like there were any bad effects. Sorry Stella.....


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I may try the longer prongs and see if I can drop the levels. He is getting better with it, I haven't worked him as much as I should. He wears it a lot of the time and definitely has better manners with it on. The idea of taking it over 40 scares me, I don't think I will ever have to. 

I haven't tried him off leash, to many loss dogs around here. I want to make sure his recall is rock solid be fore I try that. 


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Every dog is different. 
My dog has high pain tolerance. I used einstein e collar, in non distracted area, he used a 35(that only able to get minor attention).
In more distracted area normally set to 41 to 50. He has long coat and i already used a longer contact point. I think the long coat plays a role too


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

cliffson1 said:


> Get a professional trainer FAMILAR with using remotes, show you and calibrate it to your dog. You don't have the knowledge or understanding of the principles to use this tool effectively....even if you get a response from you dialogue you will run into additional problems in progressing forward.
> Plus you have a powerful tool and need hands on instruction for this level, jmo!


I AGREE!

That way you would immediately be able to figure this out. If you can't even get thru the very first training stage, then chances are there will be more issues with the collar as you go along. Reading is great to SUPPLEMENT a great trainer.

I also think your collar is too LOOSE plus the contacts are too SHORT. Did you switch out to the longer prongs that should come with the collar? A beagle has much shorter fur around their neck then our breed.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I AGREE!
> 
> That way you would immediately be able to figure this out. * If you can't even get thru the very first training stage, then chances are there will be more issues with the collar as you go along. *


Actually many beginners are so afraid of causing harm to their dogs, based on the myths, misconceptions and rumors that they've seen repeated on the Net and elsewhere, that they're overly cautious at this, the initial stage of using an Ecollar. But after a bit of coaching, to get them past this sticking point, they encounter very few issues and if they do arise, they're of a minor nature. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Reading is great to SUPPLEMENT a great trainer.


If you have a _"great trainer"_ then _"reading ... to supplement"_ him can cause confusion. Rarely do two trainers agree 100% on anything and so if you read something that disagrees with what he's telling you, it may introduce doubt and needless worry. If what you're doing is giving you the results you desire, stick with the trainer. ONLY if It's not, do I recommend outside reading. Once you get the basic training done, THEN I think that outside reading to gain knowledge, is a good idea. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I also think your collar is too LOOSE plus the contacts are too SHORT. Did you switch out to the longer prongs that should come with the collar?


The issue can be either one of these, or as you say, sometimes both. The Dogtras do not come with extra contact points. A good dealer will find out what kind of dog you have so he can make a recommendation as to the length of contact points that one will need. If you need to change them at time of purchase, there's no extra charge. If you need to go longer or shorter after purchase, they're available directly from Dogtra.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

OUbrat79 said:


> I have started using Lou Castle's training technic. Guiding him with a leash to help him understand what response will make the stimulation go away. He has learning it very quick with the pager button. * As soon as I touch it he turns around and walks back to me, even in the back yard where he normally wouldn't come. He has proven to be very quick on understanding how to make his next stop vibrating, he really doesn't like it. *


I don't suggest using the vibe mode. As you say, _"he really doesn't like it."_ If it's this obvious to you, chances are that it's too aversive, and so you get the slow response _"walk[ing] back to you."_ This "walk" should become faster and faster very quickly, but if it's too aversive, it probably won't.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If he has a mind of his own, or any kind of drive he will need to feel the power of "god" at some point. Teaching stage is one thing, but as Onyx said when you add distractions and excitement into the mix sooner or later he will try to blow you off.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of the term _"the power of 'god' "_ but I don't agree. When a dog is distracted he'll need a higher stim level then when he's at rest. It's the same thing as when you're in a noisy environment, and the person you're talking to has to _ raise his voice _ to be heard. The only time I think that _"the power of 'god' "_ is necessary is in a worst case scenario when the dog is running towards extreme danger, as when chasing a cat towards a busy road. Then I'll press the button and spin the dial to the top. I'm less concerned with causing a bit too much pain than I am with saving the dog's life. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I use a dogtra surestim and my working level is 21 most dogs I have used it on are 20-23, distractions/drive 25-30. Rabbit, 65 on one dutchie..lol. It didnt stop her from trying it again and she was a super soft submissive dog.


If you've not shown a dog how to shut of the stim you might get this result. There's no connection between having a _"super soft submissive dog"_ and how that dog will respond to stim. I suggest that you take a look at this protocol. CLICK HERE


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## PaulH (Aug 24, 2005)

My new dog did not respond to my Dogtra at all. But the TriTronics worked like a charm. Trainer says it happens. 
Paul


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

PaulH said:


> My new dog did not respond to my Dogtra at all. But the TriTronics worked like a charm. Trainer says it happens.
> Paul


Perhaps we're using the phrase _"did not respond"_ to mean different things, but I've put Ecollars on well over 4,000 dogs. The only time that a dog _"did not respond"_ to one was when it was defective, I'd forgotten to turn it on, or it wasn't making good contact, no matter what the brand.


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