# So you think our breed hasn't changed (specially their backs?)



## MaggieRoseLee

2014 article. 
**NEW ** June 2014 ... The Evolution of the Back of the GSD - The German Shepherd Dog

Interesting how many get thru the article


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## sehrgutcsg

There's a video on Google: The German Shepherd, yesterday and today. 






There's not much to say, "the Humans did it."

SGCSG


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## SunCzarina

There's humans here who'd argue that it's the right thing to do. SMH. My dogs look like that refrigerator turned on it's side. Well Otto does, Venus looks more like a broom closet...


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## sehrgutcsg

SunCzarina said:


> There's humans here who'd argue that it's the right thing to do. SMH. My dogs look like that refrigerator turned on it's side. Well Otto does, Venus looks more like a broom closet...


Yeah, you got that right. The human's here will argue at just about anything their dead set against.. Full angulation, is not the stronger frame, Jenn. It's like a bent piece of rebar falling and just the "bow" hits first and the rest goes flat on impact. I love the breed, but I also love the more subtle topline of the American lines.

Not going to start a war here, _just voice it and move on !
_
SGCSG


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## ken k

I perefer the stright backs


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Can anyone offer an explanation of the rationality (or lack thereof) behind the roach backs? (or is it contained in that very long article that I will have to go back and finish when I have an extra hour or so...)

I am so happy that there are still straight backs around!

Susan


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## trcy

I think some of those comparisons in the video have to do with the stack or lack of. In earlier pictures the dogs were just standing normal. As time went on they started stacking the dog to create the slope back. My dog can be stacked to have a slope, but most of the time he's pretty straight. He is German bloodlines.


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## Nigel

Some gsds look like hyenas.


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## CharlieB.Barkin

I'm looking forward to reading the entire article. I won't have enough time until tuesday evening, but I did come across that topic a few months ago. The original GSDs seemed to have straight backs and they seemed to have very long legs. Much more squarely built than today's dogs. That was my impression from the pictures I've seen.


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## Romany

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Can anyone offer an explanation of the rationality (or lack thereof) behind the roach backs? (or is it contained in that very long article that I will have to go back and finish when I have an extra hour or so...)
> 
> I am so happy that there are still straight backs around!
> 
> Susan


Good question,from what I have read it was because they thought they looked better?Maybe someone can explain what there reasoning was.

Personally I prefer the straight backs too
I was told by RCMP Police Dog Services that they went to the 
Czech working GSD lines because the Dogs could stay in Service longer
And were better able to go over obstacles to get there suspect.


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## onyx'girl

Not all dogs of today are extreme....


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## Bob_McBob

trcy said:


> I think some of those comparisons in the video have to do with the stack or lack of. In earlier pictures the dogs were just standing normal. As time went on they started stacking the dog to create the slope back. My dog can be stacked to have a slope, but most of the time he's pretty straight. He is German bloodlines.


A lot of "sloped back" GSD comparisons are very misleading because of stacking. You can make almost any GSD look like it has a sloped back with a dramatic stacked pose. It's clear there have been some major shifts in standards for the various lines that need serious discussion for the future of the breed. Giving the general public the impression all GSDs are frog-legged and roach-backed, or working lines are the only GSDs worth owning because of this is a major disservice. Most of this doesn't apply to the linked page, though.


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## Andaka

sloped back



straight back



same dog


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## Packen

Does not matter what a dog looks like, what the dog accomplishes is key.


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## Pax8

See, I can understand that a dog can look dramatically sloped in the back or even roached due to stacking. What I usually look for is how it affects their gaiting or movement. A shepherd with what I think of as a functional back will have a smooth gait, but one with a true roach back will have that awkward wobble-gait.

I have no problem with sloped backs. Aesthetically, I prefer straight backs, but if either one can do the work then my personal preference is just my personal preference. What I don't like to see is the extreme roach back that can't move properly. We had one at boarding that looked exactly like the picture. It was the saddest thing. His legs wobbled so much, his body had a tendency to say from side to side. No record of hip dysplasia or any joint issues in his medical record...yet. But he in no way moved as I feel a GSD should move. And I have serious doubts that he could make any sort of progress in an actual working sport.


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## Packen

Pax8 said:


> But he in no way moved as I feel a GSD should move. And I have serious doubts that he could make any sort of progress in an actual working sport.


This is where the "title buying" comes in handy. No wonder dogs with weird back are so expensive.


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## Pax8

Packen said:


> This is where the "title buying" comes in handy. No wonder dogs with weird back are so expensive.


"Title buying"? I'm still fairly new to the sport world, so I'm not familiar with this?


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## simba405

Packen said:


> This is where the "title buying" comes in handy. No wonder dogs with weird back are so expensive.


Hahahah. They are expensive indeed.


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## shepherdmom

Andaka said:


> sloped back
> 
> 
> 
> straight back
> 
> 
> 
> same dog


Second picture still doesn't look straight backed to me... He/she? still looks squatted down IMO. 

Tasha (WGSL) has that squatted down look too in fact we think with her tail she looks more bunny than German Shepherd.


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## dogfaeries

Straight is different than parallel. Everyone seems to say "straight back" when they apparently mean "parallel to the floor". Daphne's dog has a straight back. His topline is a straight line. Not arched or sway backed.


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## Romany

Some great photos,there all Beautiful GSD's .


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## shepherdmom

dogfaeries said:


> Straight is different than parallel. Everyone seems to say "straight back" when they apparently mean "parallel to the floor". Daphne's dog has a straight back. His topline is a straight line. Not arched or sway backed.


Ok, I don't know the proper term for it but its not just the back but also the legs are more sloped or squatted or ?? I'm not sure of the proper terms but the dogs today don't look at all like the originals. I much prefer the look of the one from 1920 except for the head.


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## dogfaeries

shepherdmom said:


> Ok, I don't know the proper term for it but its not just the back but also the legs are more sloped or squatted or ?? I'm not sure of the proper terms but the dogs today don't look at all like the originals. I much prefer the look of the one from 1920 except for the head.


The dogs have more rear angulation than the earlier dogs, which is what you are seeing as "sloped or squatted".


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is going to be good - thanks, MRL, I am excited to read this. 

If anyone ever gets a chance to talk to your vets, if they see more than just your GSD, do. Also, even better, talk to a rehab vet. Talk to them about the structure of the breed - spine and rear angulation, what they see, the problems (or not) that they feel that the structure contributes to. It's a very interesting conversation and depending on how well they know you, and how defensive they may perceive you as, you will get some really interesting information. You could have it about a lot of breeds - eyes and elbows in Chows, the short nosed breeds. 

I am always thinking about what the spine does...and how when you have back legs weakened in their functionality as well, and how the spine needs to hold that whole thing up.... 

That makes those elbow x-rays even more important, with the front half carrying about 60% from what I've read here: http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/is-your-dog-a-candidate-for-elbow-replacement of their weight.


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## ken k

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Can anyone offer an explanation of the rationality (or lack thereof) behind the roach backs? (or is it contained in that very long article that I will have to go back and finish when I have an extra hour or so...)
> 
> I am so happy that there are still straight backs around!
> 
> Susan


I saw it on tv, from some AKC person, "better for herding".


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## Bob_McBob

ken k said:


> I saw it on tv, from some AKC person, "better for herding".


Wow, I was kind of skeptical and did some searching around, and it turns out breeders actually tell people this sort of thing. Here's a quote from one Facebook post:



> I went back to the dog show today and I was able to talk to several German Shepherd breeders, it was very interesting on what they had to say. One lady told me that the shepherds are suppose to have a roach back because they are herding dogs, this is what they are suppose to look like, and in Germany and other countries there are hills and by their backs being sloped, it makes it easier for them to climb the hills, plus it makes them faster, they don't need to take as many steps as the straight backs, the straight backs are much slower and they do not glide, the sloped back are suppose to look like their feet are off the ground when they herd. As the straight backs are more clumsy as to the roach back and that is what the judges like to see.


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## carmspack

oh good lord , thought I had heard it all -- NO NO NO and NO.
none of the above excuses pointed out by ken k and bob mcbob


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## ken k

carmspack said:


> oh good lord , thought I had heard it all -- NO NO NO and NO.
> none of the above excuses pointed out by ken k and bob mcbob


I know, but the real reason is for the "natural stack" right?, most of the AKC shows I have been too, and followed behind some of the GSD shows dogs, looks to me like they are pushing their legs out to the side to walk, I gotta believe by the time the dogs 7 or 8 years old it could barely walk

this is just my 2 cents


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## carmspack

you wouldn't be seeing GSD with the roach at AKC shows .


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## LaRen616

I much prefer the "straight" back GSDs. 

I don't like the way they stack the GSD at dog shows, I don't know why they find that attractive.


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## SuperG

No doubt the breed has changed.....

Most dogs actually had a task many moons ago....real tasks...not just looking pretty..which back then they probably didn't give a crap about....

Over the decades as humans have become more "soft" so have the dogs...why not? What tasks are they performing?

I know there are exceptions to this but in my opinion the only group of dogs which have resisted ( changed at a slower pace) this passage to aesthetics is the sporting group as people still actually use a percentage of these dogs to hunt over.....but a good argument against my opinion would be a Irish Setter....once a great hunting dog....now....just another pretty face.

SuperG


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## Liesje

LaRen616 said:


> I much prefer the "straight" back GSDs.
> 
> I don't like the way they stack the GSD at dog shows, I don't know why they find that attractive.


It's not the stack, it's the dog, lol. GSDs are stacked with the forelegs perpendicular to the ground and the left rear hock perpendicular to the ground. They are stacked this way for AKC, UKC, SV..... The reason dogs look different stacked is because the dogs *are* different, not because they are being stacked differently.


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## NancyJ

I might like to start a thread that says "describe my dogs back" where we post pictures of our dogs in either a neutral standing position or a stack and has people comment on if they think its long or reached or dipped whatever.... Would that be a helpful thread?

I know I can't really make any assessment just looking at a picture of a dog other than that looks decent or that looks odd but that's about it. Either a dog looks nicely put together are they don't to me.....

This whole long back thing to me is different than this roached back thing...it seems?

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## lalachka

Bob_McBob said:


> Wow, I was kind of skeptical and did some searching around, and it turns out breeders actually tell people this sort of thing. Here's a quote from one Facebook post:



Omg!!!!! The slopes on the hills should match the dog's back????

Who makes this stuff up?????


As far as the slope. There was a dog in someone's post earlier, shown stacked and then not stacked to illustrate that it's all how you stack them. 

That dog still has a straight back though. Of course if you stack them then the back will go down. I think any dog's back will, no? You're lowering the back legs and the front legs are not lowered, so there will be a slope. 

But when you look at the pics before - those dogs have arched, roached backs. It looks really bad IMO. 
Also, their butts lol or whatever are cut off, I can't explain it. It looks bad. Poor dogs. It must be hard to move with that shape. 

ETA straight meaning there's no bumps, no arches, no roaches. Just a straight line, sloped or not. 

What bothers me is the curving back.

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## misslesleedavis1

I dont think this looks right, it may be right according to some people but to me not so much,


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## lalachka

Who are these dogs? Poor pup


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## misslesleedavis1

Heres abnother one that looks painful even.


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## lalachka

If someone selected for this it's really sad. Where are yu finding these?


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## KirstenS

misslesleedavis1 said:


> View attachment 219137
> 
> 
> View attachment 219145
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think this looks right, it may be right according to some people but to me not so much,


You can really see in the bottom picture how much the dog is leaning on it's hock, and that is NOT natural. I've also seen videos where these dogs with "roached" backs are also leaning on their hocks when they run. :/


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## misslesleedavis1

lalachka said:


> If someone selected for this it's really sad. Where are yu finding these?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I googled them.


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## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I googled them.



Ohh

Also, I meant selecting as in breeding for these traits on purpose. I think I wasn't clear


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## misslesleedavis1

lalachka said:


> Ohh
> 
> Also, I meant selecting as in breeding for these traits on purpose. I think I wasn't clear
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You most likely were, i am not one to skip back lots of pages and read the first thread. 
I do not know who would want the look of the pup i posted, i do not understand the hump in the backs.


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## misslesleedavis1

The Truth About GSD Structure. by Canidae-Mayhem on deviantART

Very good read,


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## lalachka

Odin looks not that good too, no?


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## misslesleedavis1

lalachka said:


> Odin looks not that good too, no?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


it would be interesting to nail down a few more pics of him forsure,


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## misslesleedavis1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhvPwcQxCgc


here we go..

I do not know what to say, maybe an expert can give you a better idea. AHEM carmen


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## lalachka

I don't like him)))))
I'm not an expert though


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## onyx'girl

his bitework is very weak, IMO...structurally, he obviously looks perfect as far as what the judges like?


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## Liesje

I've seen Odin in person several times over the years (photographed him with his owners when he was just a puppy). He is not my cup of tea, but I would not be writing off the entire breed or even that type based on one dog.


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## misslesleedavis1

onyx'girl said:


> his bitework is very weak, IMO...structurally, he obviously looks perfect as far as what the judges like?


Maybe he was having an off day but he did appear to be mildly disinterested.


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## misslesleedavis1

Liesje said:


> I've seen Odin in person several times over the years (photographed him with his owners when he was just a puppy). He is not my cup of tea, but I would not be writing off the entire breed or even that type based on one dog.


He is SchH3 so he really had done his due, may i ask why he is not your cup o tea?


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## lalachka

Also, why did the owner keep having to lift him up to put him by his side?


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## lauren43

Liesje said:


> It's not the stack, it's the dog, lol. GSDs are stacked with the forelegs perpendicular to the ground and the left rear hock perpendicular to the ground. They are stacked this way for AKC, UKC, SV..... The reason dogs look different stacked is because the dogs *are* different, not because they are being stacked differently.


Can someone explain why they are stacked differently than other breeds?

I just feel that for some of these dogs the AKC, UKC etc has done a disservice to the breeds. I can appreciate a beautiful dog, but when form and function don't coincide with aesthetics I have an issue.


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## onyx'girl

lalachka said:


> Also, why did the owner keep having to lift him up to put him by his side?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The breed survey protection doesn't need to show obedience....or much control. 
Did he get the 3 after that video? I hope so, because he clearly lacked in the protection.


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## Wolfgeist

I was talking to Christine K about this yesterday on the Enthusiasts group. I would love a study to come out that compares actual xrays of the spine - well, the entire back end to compare extremes. Not just drawn references, but real xrays. I think it would be very valuable.


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## Liesje

misslesleedavis1 said:


> He is SchH3 so he really had done his due, may i ask why he is not your cup o tea?


He is a nice dog, has never seemed nervy or sharp, but does not have the drive nor the hardness I want in a GSD. He is also too large and heavy for my taste (not fat heavy, but IMO the breed does not need huge bone and monster heads to me strong and masculine). I've seen him tire out at a small show. As far as looks, I like more black pigment, not just red with faded black. His owners are nice people from what I can tell. He has some sons and daughters that I like better than himself but I suppose that is the mark of a VA dog (producing). I saw him most recently in April. He looked good and is on a raw diet.

PS. The handler in the video clip is not his owner (may be part of the problem?).


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## lalachka

I'm glad it's not. I wanted to say I didn't like the handling (non expert opinion, just my impression and can't explain why I didn't like it) but didn't want to offend the owners. 


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## Liesje

He is owned by two women that I believe are in their 70s. They definitely treat him like a king! One of them had a young female, I believe his daughter, that I liked at least from what I saw.


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## CarolinaRose

Whew, that was very interesting reading but it did take me a while. Probably about 40min at least. I kept getting held up at the top because of the changing GSD pics. Every time the pic changed my eyes instantly got distracted. There was a lot of very good information there and while I certainly will not remember ANY of the technical names he used, I think I learned a little bit there. I certainly bookmarked it for later reference. 

However I don't understand how he didn't emphasize the change in mobility that the shift in back/loin created. This line of GSD doesn't appear to move as smoothly or efficiently (as is so important for the breed) as dogs who have straighter backs and higher hips who are able to actually get their legs underneath them to push off and "fly". I think he could have pushed that point a little harder, since he pointed out the GSD's structure needs to contribute to work efficiently. Maybe he did and I misunderstood it? There was a LOT of information there. 

The article said the back was developed into a curve because the powers-that-be thought it strengthened the back and made the trot more efficient. I don't buy it. Maybe the back is stronger, I don't really know/understand that. But I can look at a straight-er back GSD gaiting and a curved back GSD gaiting and it seems the me the straight-er back GSD has a further reaching, more efficient ground covering gait. 

And that stack! I wish someone could give me a GOOD explanation as to why the GSD has been assigned such an extreme stack! Correct me if I'm wrong (please) but I don't think any other breed has such an exaggerated, un-natural stack. And I keep reading posts about how this dog or that dog look so different out of the stack, and you can modify stacks to emphasize traits or hide faults. 

Give me an honest stack! Stick the dog in front of me and plant him 4-square. And write the standard to that stack. No more hiding, no more excuses. If it wasn't for this stack we wouldn't have "hock-walkers" which, lets face it, are a crime against nature. The deviantArt post misslesleedavis1 shared had a pic of a puppy WALKING, not stacking but out for a walk with his hock full on the ground. I wanted to cry I felt so sad for him. It's just wrong. 

Wow, I got really rant-y there. I started out with good intensions I swear!  Sorry about how long it is too. I . . . tend to do that


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## Liesje

There's nothing extreme about how the GSD is stacked. The farthest leg back is set perpendicular, just how all other breeds are stacked. My GSDs (who have all been very moderate compared to the extremes in either show lines) all stack this way naturally. They do also stand square but more often pull one foot under when standing alert.

This is probably the best moving GSD I've owned so far. Balanced, very firm, efficient movement. Nothing extreme about her. She weighed 51lbs. She's actually slightly over stretched in this stack.


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## LaRen616

CarolinaRose said:


> Whew, that was very interesting reading but it did take me a while. Probably about 40min at least. I kept getting held up at the top because of the changing GSD pics. Every time the pic changed my eyes instantly got distracted. There was a lot of very good information there and while I certainly will not remember ANY of the technical names he used, I think I learned a little bit there. I certainly bookmarked it for later reference.
> 
> However I don't understand how he didn't emphasize the change in mobility that the shift in back/loin created. This line of GSD doesn't appear to move as smoothly or efficiently (as is so important for the breed) as dogs who have straighter backs and higher hips who are able to actually get their legs underneath them to push off and "fly". I think he could have pushed that point a little harder, since he pointed out the GSD's structure needs to contribute to work efficiently. Maybe he did and I misunderstood it? There was a LOT of information there.
> 
> The article said the back was developed into a curve because the powers-that-be thought it strengthened the back and made the trot more efficient. I don't buy it. Maybe the back is stronger, I don't really know/understand that. But I can look at a straight-er back GSD gaiting and a curved back GSD gaiting and it seems the me the straight-er back GSD has a further reaching, more efficient ground covering gait.
> 
> And that stack! I wish someone could give me a GOOD explanation as to why the GSD has been assigned such an extreme stack! Correct me if I'm wrong (please) but I don't think any other breed has such an exaggerated, un-natural stack. And I keep reading posts about how this dog or that dog look so different out of the stack, and you can modify stacks to emphasize traits or hide faults.
> 
> Give me an honest stack! Stick the dog in front of me and plant him 4-square. And write the standard to that stack. No more hiding, no more excuses. If it wasn't for this stack we wouldn't have "hock-walkers" which, lets face it, are a crime against nature. The deviantArt post misslesleedavis1 shared had a pic of a puppy WALKING, not stacking but out for a walk with his hock full on the ground. I wanted to cry I felt so sad for him. It's just wrong.
> 
> Wow, I got really rant-y there. I started out with good intensions I swear!  Sorry about how long it is too. I . . . tend to do that


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616

I prefer this :wub:


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## Liesje

But that's the same stack. Front is basically perpendicular, left rear is perpendicular, left right falls between the turn of the knee and tip of male anatomy. The difference is not the stack, it's the dog. Your dog has less angulation in the rear.


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## SuperG

Claimed to be one of the better movers of all time....






Not an extreme sloping topline whatsoever when stacked and his back is straight while moving...... overreach is interesting to view.... both hinds pass to the left of his fores...wonder if there is a bit of a "crab" when viewing head on??


SuperG


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## misslesleedavis1

Oooh he moves fluently

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## misslesleedavis1

Takes on this one 

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## LaRen616

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Takes on this one
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Terrible looking.


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## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Takes on this one
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



You know what's really horrifying about all the pics you showed? Someone is stacking them and taking pics. So I'm assuming they like what they have. 


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## CarolinaRose

Liesje said:


> There's nothing extreme about how the GSD is stacked. The farthest leg back is set perpendicular, just how all other breeds are stacked. My GSDs (who have all been very moderate compared to the extremes in either show lines) all stack this way naturally. They do also stand square but more often pull one foot under when standing alert.
> 
> This is probably the best moving GSD I've owned so far. Balanced, very firm, efficient movement. Nothing extreme about her. She weighed 51lbs. She's actually slightly over stretched in this stack.


Your dog is very beautiful. And she looks just fine in her stack. But other dogs don't look so natural, really at all. They don't look like they just walked into their stack like your girl does. Really, compared to your girl, they look like they're bent at the knees, and if you ask me never really straighten up out of the stack. 

I bet your girl CAN really move! I'd love to see a GSD like that in motion. It'd probably be like a breath of fresh air. Actually, my GSD girl 10 years ago looked a lot like your girl (honestly though, yours has better pigment. Don't tell Savannah! )


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## lalachka

Liesje said:


> There's nothing extreme about how the GSD is stacked. The farthest leg back is set perpendicular, just how all other breeds are stacked. My GSDs (who have all been very moderate compared to the extremes in either show lines) all stack this way naturally. They do also stand square but more often pull one foot under when standing alert.
> 
> This is probably the best moving GSD I've owned so far. Balanced, very firm, efficient movement. Nothing extreme about her. She weighed 51lbs. She's actually slightly over stretched in this stack.


 
i don't know how i missed this. she's beautiful, looks very athletic. 
this is showline? why such a drastic difference in looks?


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## Liesje

She was working lines, basically 3/4 west German and 1/4 DDR. Great-grand daughter of Lord, amazing natural tracker but weak nerves, never did protection and could be flighty though I did a lot of agility and obedience with her and she earned a bunch of titles.

She looks more pleasing because she's not extreme, not because she's stacked any differently. She did not walk into that stack, my friend (in the photo) set her up for me.


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## Liesje

Another working line, adolescent male (sorry, I'm only sharing dogs I own/owned, not really comfortable posting other peoples' dogs)


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## lhczth

One of the best moving dogs I have ever owned. Natural stack.


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## SuperG

One of the best moving GSD I have ever known and had the pleasure to call a teammate. She's a bit of a butchy chiquita but a natural poser.

SuperG


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## lalachka

Liesje said:


> She was working lines, basically 3/4 west German and 1/4 DDR. Great-grand daughter of Lord, amazing natural tracker but weak nerves, never did protection and could be flighty though I did a lot of agility and obedience with her and she earned a bunch of titles.
> 
> She looks more pleasing because she's not extreme, not because she's stacked any differently. She did not walk into that stack, my friend (in the photo) set her up for me.



Oh, so she is working lines then. I thought you were showing a showline dog to say that they're not all curved. 

She's beautiful, stacked or not. You can put her in any position and she will still be beautiful. Those dogs are just sad looking though. It'd be interesting to see what they look like unstacked but I'm sure it's not a big diff 


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## Andaka

lauren43 said:


> Can someone explain why they are stacked differently than other breeds?
> 
> I just feel that for some of these dogs the AKC, UKC etc has done a disservice to the breeds. I can appreciate a beautiful dog, but when form and function don't coincide with aesthetics I have an issue.


Think of a GSD like a sprinter -- the stack puts the dog's weight on the front end, the inside leg is underneath the dog for balance, and the dog can move quickly simply by moving the outside rear leg.


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## carmspack

lots of good examples here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html


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## Pax8

jocoyn said:


> I might like to start a thread that says "describe my dogs back" where we post pictures of our dogs in either a neutral standing position or a stack and has people comment on if they think its long or reached or dipped whatever.... Would that be a helpful thread?
> 
> I know I can't really make any assessment just looking at a picture of a dog other than that looks decent or that looks odd but that's about it. Either a dog looks nicely put together are they don't to me.....
> 
> This whole long back thing to me is different than this roached back thing...it seems?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would be VERY interested in that. It would be a good way to look at and describe a wide variety of shepherds instead of having to rely on all the extreme images in a google search.


----------



## dogfaeries

lalachka said:


> Oh, so she is working lines then. I thought you were showing a showline dog to say that they're not all curved.




Just to clarify, when talking about showlines, the American ones do not have a curvy back. That occurs in the German ones. It can get confusing when the generic "showline" is used.


----------



## lalachka

dogfaeries said:


> Just to clarify, when talking about showlines, the American ones do not have a curvy back. That occurs in the German ones. It can get confusing when the generic "showline" is used.



I didn't know that)))))


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----------



## sehrgutcsg

I think what I find most interesting about this thread is the lack of a couple of posters who normally are involved in different conversations. I have not seen Bailiff or David Winners comment on this thread because they're only concern is one thing the dog that is trainable to do what they would like this dog to do and I find it funny in a weird sort of way because they really don't care what the dog looks like angulation wise they want to know that the dog is going to react and bite and hold - so all the pictures are very pretty with the breed standard is what the dog does. Sorry for the punctuation, my computer is down and I'm on my phone it's early in the morning and I hope everybody's having a good day!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well, anyone who wants to use a dog for a job of any kind, or sport, should be concerned with their structure, because it's not just about their looks, it's about their health, and how well they will be able to perform, and for how long. It may not matter if you just move from dog to dog as they break down (not implicating either of them in that) but for the average owner and most people in general, having a dog with good structure is hugely important, beyond the looks, for function. 

They may not be interested in commenting on this - I would find it hard to imagine that they wouldn't consider it important at some level though. 

When you go back to the article and just read the functions of the spine - and compare some of the dogs to other dogs within the breed, and then to other dogs in other breeds who also run a lot, and are powerful dogs, there is quite a difference - the look is what you see, but what it does to the animal goes beyond that.


----------



## Liesje

Here is a showline if you want an example of that, 100% WGSL, several photos through the years. Some show the back more straight, some more curved, but IMO the overall picture and proportions do not change. I personally like a back that is lightly sloping (not perfectly level, not super steep) and slightly curved but not roached (wither is the highest point).


----------



## Liesje

This dog is 1/2 showline. I don't have a very recent stack, he is only 8 months old. I liked him very much as a little puppy, now he is going through an ugly gangly phase which is common at this age so I'm not being critical of him right now. As a baby, he was a little more cowhocked than I like, but way less than some (even many workling line puppies) and has outgrown it.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Not flipping back but to the mods that have posted pics. Wow! Gorgeous gorgeous dogs

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----------



## lhczth

sehrgutcsg said:


> I think what I find most interesting about this thread is the lack of a couple of posters who normally are involved in different conversations. I have not seen Bailiff or David Winners comment on this thread because they're only concern is one thing the dog that is trainable to do what they would like this dog to do and I find it funny in a weird sort of way because they really don't care what the dog looks like angulation wise they want to know that the dog is going to react and bite and hold - so all the pictures are very pretty with the breed standard is what the dog does.


To someone whose life and/or livelihood is dependent on a dog their only concern is having a dog, any breed, who can do the job. Structure matters because a dog that has poor conformation for work will not hold up to the riggers of day to day, year to year work. How the dog looks has no importance.

When you start discussing specific breeds than things change. I am a working dog person, specifically working GSD person. I want a dog that looks like a GSD, fits the standard, while maintaining good sound working dog structure. 

Straight shoulders will break down over time. Straight stifles and a total lack of rear angulation are more prone to ACL issues. Extreme angulation behind restricts agility and maneuverability. Huge boned, massive dogs are less agile and tend to have much shorter working lives. Correct structure has nothing to do with show ring structure which no longer promotes a dog bred to work.


----------



## lhczth

BTW, the female I posted is 100% west German working lines (though her mother is from the Netherlands).


----------



## martemchik

What many people not familiar with dog shows need to understand is that MOST of our GSDs are conforming to the standard. So the working dogs, are conforming to the written standard. The dog show, is a very subjective snap shot of the dogs in the ring that day.

Although many people are commenting about what they like/don't like. All that stuff still fits in within the standard. So although "working" people, tend to care more about the working ability than the look...their dogs are still within the standard, because if they weren't within standard, they'd probably have a very hard time working.


----------



## carmspack

Bob_McBob said:


> Wow, I was kind of skeptical and did some searching around, and it turns out breeders actually tell people this sort of thing. Here's a quote from one Facebook post:


does this enable fluid day long motion ?



what standard ? there are 3 subsets with unique interpretations and the animals bear almost no resemblance to one another . Those "sets" being WGSL , American bred show lines and working/sport lines -- am rather puzzled why so many of the Czech dogs posted on broker sites are showing up with almost "American" angulation .

also there is a difference in the topline and the back. Topline includes withers and croup (also back) . A straight back does not mean a straight topline.


----------



## lhczth

This was the best moving dog I have ever owned. She could go all day and she used to. My husband even noticed that as she trotted back and forth with us when doing hay she would change gears when we went faster. She didn't move faster, her stride increased. No extremes. She had nerves of steel, did anything I ever asked (tracking, obedience, herding), went everywhere with me and she taught me what a GSD should be. (A little trip down memory lane)

Her lines were very old despite her being born in '85. 
Itara vom Lerchental 

Not the best picture of her, but what I have.


----------



## carmspack

Lisa , wish there were more like her. Before visiting your pedigree link, and thank you very much for providing it , I guessed - Marko/Bernd - pretty good guess.

we need this . Lovely topline and proportions .


----------



## lhczth

She was a bit oversize, but you would never know it looking at her photo. Funny, I have followed those similar lines ever since (Bernd, Marko, Grief) with some additions along the way. 

Sorry, off topic.


----------



## holland

...who will issue a warning


----------



## lhczth

holland said:


> ...who will issue a warning


 I warned myself.


----------



## carmspack

oh yes how the backs have changed.

now here is a VA 7 "show line" clearly , full "V" background 

beautiful balanced strong backed female !

so the question is how has there been such a transformation , which is not only acceptable, but the desirable norm in the current SV show lines 





VA7 Ondra von Ecclesia Nova


----------



## Liesje

Because people say one thing and do another. They say they are not promoting extremes and are striving to maintain working temperament, but then they breed their bitches to the top V and VA dogs in the US and Germany who either live in kennels or laze about their homes after they earned their "SchH3" (some in 6 months.....???) and never see another day of real work or training again.


----------



## lhczth

I believe it was an SV judge of well renown that said the reason for the arched back was that it is stronger, like a bridge. The problem is that dogs are not bridges and that arch/curve limits flexibility. Of course that could have just been a well planned excuse to justify selling a fault perpetuated by a dog and look that started the trend.


----------



## Liesje

Right, an arch IS stronger....when the object is stationary and carrying thousands of tons on top of it. GSDs don't just stand around with heavy loads on their backs.


----------



## lalachka

Liesje said:


> Right, an arch IS stronger....when the object is stationary and carrying thousands of tons on top of it. GSDs don't just stand around with heavy loads on their backs.



How's the arch stronger for bridges? I never thought about why bridges are arched))))


----------



## shepherdmom

carmspack said:


> oh yes how the backs have changed.
> 
> now here is a VA 7 "show line" clearly , full "V" background
> 
> beautiful balanced strong backed female !
> 
> so the question is how has there been such a transformation , which is not only acceptable, but the desirable norm in the current SV show lines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VA7 Ondra von Ecclesia Nova



Obviously no expert, I don't mean to tick anyone off but the hind end still doesn't look right. The back is straight but how come the legs are so narrow? 




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----------



## CarolinaRose

shepherdmom said:


> Obviously no expert, I don't mean to tick anyone off but the hind end still doesn't look right. The back is straight but how come the legs are so narrow?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I thought the same thing, but I wasn't going to say anything. I like everything else about this dog but the back legs look off. I thought they looked too long and too skinny . . . but like you I'm no expert either.


----------



## Liesje

She doesn't have the coat like today's typey show lines. Maybe she had recently whelped a litter.


----------



## carmspack

a physically hard dry body , trotting structure , built for efficiency .
camera angle .


----------



## carmspack

because she represents her genetics , which is biased towards the northern German states, Thuringia -- 

If you look at her early 1970's and compare her to dogs 40 years earlier , you would see LESS change , than if you compared her 1970's to dogs 40 years AFTER , bringing it to our current times.

There is no comparison particularly since I deliberately chose a SHOW line dog , and a VA dog .

She would have fast ground cover . Good front and shoulder , balance . Ideal for agility.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Wow, just got back and am impressed how well people have done with their photos and comments! 

See, we can learn and be nice


----------



## Xeph




----------



## lalachka

This was one of the first pics I saw when I came on this forum. She's beautiful. I can't get over how amazing looking she is


----------



## Xeph

American Show line. Best on sheep. It's her favorite thing, and I love to see how her drives come out on stock . Hoping to do HT PT next year

But I'm honest about her faults, too


----------



## lalachka

Xeph said:


> American Show line. Best on sheep. It's her favorite thing, and I love to see how her drives come out on stock . Hoping to do HT PT next year
> 
> But I'm honest about her faults, too



Lol what are her faults? It's not looks, is it?


----------



## Xeph

She has more rear than front and is a bit long in the back. This does affect her ability to turn, and she is not my best galloper. She can and does do so frequently (unlike some dogs that are so angulated all they do is trot or pace), but I'm not going to pretend those things don't affect her. Every (physical) fault a dog has affects it in some way


----------



## lalachka

Xeph said:


> She has more rear than front and is a bit long in the back. This does affect her ability to turn, and she is not my best galloper. She can and does do so frequently (unlike some dogs that are so angulated all they do is trot or pace), but I'm not going to pretend those things don't affect her. Every (physical) fault a dog has affects it in some way



Can you post a pic of your best galloper? 

This one is just stunning. And her trot is stunning.


----------



## Xeph

Best galloper, worst trotter


----------



## lalachka

He reminds me of the dog carmspack posted. So what is it that makes a good galloper? Skinny back?
What makes a good trotter?


----------



## Xeph

Less angulation to hinder him, balanced front and rear. I personally feel he lacks angles, but others would disagree. It's why we have so many different styles of GSD.

A dog's movement should be effortless and free flowing. The shoulder needs to open fully to offer maximum reach., and the dog must be able to reach well under himself to propel himself forward.

Lack of angulation affects both of these things. You have increased agility, but decreased efficiency at the trot. Effectively the difference between an animal built for endurance and one built for sprinting


----------



## carmspack

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.







Report this image
Best galloper, worst trotter 
__________________


male dog lacks front , is straight -- not the same


----------



## lalachka

carmspack said:


> This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report this image
> Best galloper, worst trotter
> __________________
> 
> 
> male dog lacks front , is straight -- not the same



I was talking about their backs and back part. To me they look identical almost. No?


----------



## lalachka

Xeph said:


> Less angulation to hinder him, balanced front and rear. I personally feel he lacks angles, but others would disagree. It's why we have so many different styles of GSD.
> 
> A dog's movement should be effortless and free flowing. The shoulder needs to open fully to offer maximum reach., and the dog must be able to reach well under himself to propel himself forward.
> 
> Lack of angulation affects both of these things. You have increased agility, but decreased efficiency at the trot. Effectively the difference between an animal built for endurance and one built for sprinting



What's angulation?

And how can you tell whether the dog has the shoulder that will open fully? Which part of the dog shows that?

I don't mean to take threads places but I read and have all kinds of questions


----------



## Vandal

Here is an article from 1980 where the President of the SV discusses some of the issues with the breed that needed to be addressed.....I think some of them were not. 
He talks briefly about the back in part 2. Not sure these kinds of reports are published or even written anymore. Or if they are, maybe not with quite the same level of honesty.


----------



## shepherdmom

Xeph said:


> Less angulation to hinder him, balanced front and rear. I personally feel he lacks angles, but others would disagree. It's why we have so many different styles of GSD.
> 
> A dog's movement should be effortless and free flowing. The shoulder needs to open fully to offer maximum reach., and the dog must be able to reach well under himself to propel himself forward.
> 
> Lack of angulation affects both of these things. You have increased agility, but decreased efficiency at the trot. Effectively the difference between an animal built for endurance and one built for sprinting


Not sure what you mean by angles? 

I personally like the looks of the 40's and 50's. Now those dogs looked like they could work and kick butt! 

Big heads, nice thick rear legs that don't look like sticks that are going to give out. They looked like they meant serious business. 




























When someone says "old fashioned" German Shepherds that is what I'm thinking of. The back ends today look almost deformed when compared to those beauties.


----------



## lhczth

VA5 in 1967. One of the best producing bitches of all times. Her mother was HGH.


----------



## lhczth

Pirol looks similar to the Alsatian in GB. Longer through the body and short legs.


----------



## shepherdmom

lhczth said:


> Pirol looks similar to the Alsatian in GB. Longer through the body and short legs.


All three are former winners of The Bunderssieger Zuchtschau which is held every year in Germany. Found them on this list.  

Historical German Shepherd Sieger list and photographs


----------



## robk

Ruger, 3 years old. mostly working lines but has some show lines mixed in on top and bottom. I used to hate the way he was developing but he has turned out nice. He is little light on bone but over all I am happy with him;


----------



## lhczth

shepherdmom said:


> All three are former winners of The Bunderssieger Zuchtschau which is held every year in Germany. Found them on this list.
> 
> Historical German Shepherd Sieger list and photographs


Yes. I am aware of that.


----------



## sehrgutcsg

No expert:

Look at the rear feet; firmly flat on the ground in post #s 115, 119 and 120..

Then look at the, "tippy toe" on post # 123. That cannot be comforting to the dog with 50% on the ground instead of 85% on the three other pictures. Their all beautiful, flat footed must be something that has changed as well as angulation and the toplines.

SGCSG


----------



## shepherdmom

lhczth said:


> Yes. I am aware of that.


Oh sorry that didn't come out right  when I read your post, I realized, I had forgotten to post the link of where I found the pictures. Not that you didn't know who they were but just to get the correct citation out there in case others might not know.


----------



## Xeph

> Not sure what you mean by angles?


The angulation of the hindquarter, which is measured at the joining of the upper and lower thigh.

I don't care for the dogs of the 40s and 50s. I can't stand a straight rear. I want to see some turn of stifle. It's a German Shepherd, not a Malinois.

But I am also a person that has no problem admitting that aesthetic is important to me. I have chosen a dog that works over a dog that meets my aesthetic preference, but I'll never think the dog is beautiful just because it works. I want both.

In general, I prefer (American) show line dogs. But that's me.


----------



## Xeph

And robk's dog is standing just fine. He stopped in an odd way, but he stands perfectly fine on his feet


----------



## shepherdmom

sehrgutcsg said:


> No expert:
> 
> Look at the rear feet; firmly flat on the ground in post #s 115, 119 and 120..
> 
> Then look at the, "tippy toe" on post # 123. That cannot be comforting to the dog with 50% on the ground instead of 85% on the three other pictures. Their all beautiful, flat footed must be something that has changed as well as angulation and the toplines.
> 
> SGCSG


Agreed. I don't know the proper terms for it but the entire back end looks less sturdy.


----------



## Xeph

He's standing with his rear close together. That doesn't mean the rear is weak, just means he stopped doing what he was doing and stood strangely. Dogs'll do that from time to time


----------



## lalachka

Xeph said:


> He's standing with his rear close together.


do you know why this happens in dogs? Mine does this all the time, something in his structure makes him stand that way. 

Should I pm you instead? I've been asking everyone here and irl and no one can explain it. I just want to have an idea about what it is, if I can leave it alone or there are problems possible down the line.


----------



## shepherdmom

Xeph said:


> The angulation of the hindquarter, which is measured at the joining of the upper and lower thigh.
> 
> I don't care for the dogs of the 40s and 50s. I can't stand a straight rear. I want to see some turn of stifle. It's a German Shepherd, not a Malinois.
> 
> But I am also a person that has no problem admitting that aesthetic is important to me. I have chosen a dog that works over a dog that meets my aesthetic preference, but I'll never think the dog is beautiful just because it works. I want both.
> 
> In general, I prefer (American) show line dogs. But that's me.


In personality, I much prefer the show line. I like the bigger size and and love the red coloring of many of the show dogs but I really don't like the rears, to me they just look unhealthy. If you go back the first German Shepherds had straight rears. Its only recently they have become weird.


----------



## wolfy dog

shepherdmom said:


> All three are former winners of The Bunderssieger Zuchtschau which is held every year in Germany. Found them on this list.
> 
> Historical German Shepherd Sieger list and photographs


Thanks for this illustration link. To me things went downhill in the late '60s.
But all of this is so personal that we will never find a compromise and I hope we don't because I love the WL dogs for the looks and who they are.


----------



## Xeph

The first GSDs were over 100 years ago. A breed will change in that time.

If the majority of GSDs looked that way now, I wouldn't own one.


----------



## shepherdmom

Xeph said:


> If the majority of GSDs looked that way now, I wouldn't own one.



That is just so sad to me. I care more about personality and traits than looks. The only reason I'm concerned about the looks are the changes are the health problems that have happened because of breeding for looks. 


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----------



## Bob_McBob

What is it you dislike about the early GSD examples? Many of them could easily pass for current working line dogs, aside from a few with unusual facial structures.


----------



## lalachka

*so you think our breed hasn't changed?*

Lol my car broke down with my dog in it and the tow truck driver saw my dog, figured I'm a gsd expert and was like, why is it that all the dogs here have these horrible roached backs? They look crippled. 

He's also from Russia, he's like, it struck me when I first came here, how bad they all look. Why are they being bred. Why aren't they taken out of the gene pool?

I didn't know what to say. Why ARE they being bred?


----------



## onyx'girl

because people will buy them?


----------



## Nigel

I think I've only seen one GSD with a roach, maybe it's more prevalent in some parts of the US.


----------



## lalachka

Simple answers I guess. 

Why do people buy them? It's not obvious at that age unless it's severe?


----------



## LifeofRiley

lalachka said:


> Lol my car broke down with my dog in it and the tow truck driver saw my dog, figured I'm a gsd expert and was like, why is it that all the dogs here have these horrible roached backs? They look crippled.
> 
> He's also from Russia, he's like, it struck me when I first came here, how bad they all look. Why are they being bred. Why aren't they taken out of the gene pool?
> 
> I didn't know what to say. Why ARE they being bred?


Lala... I have had similar conversations. People always ask me about my dog Riley when we are out and about... "what is he?" I typically say that he is most likely a purebred white GSD - I say "most likely" because the truth is I have no idea if there is something else mixed in there as he is a rescue. But, anyway, on more than one occasion people have told me that he *MUST* be mixed with something else because he has a "normal" back and can walk "normally." I typically just tell them that they might be right and continue on my way.

Another example… I was walking along the lakefront with my Mom (who was visiting) and, of course, my dog Riley. A little ways ahead of us someone else was walking their dog. My Mom turned to me and asked me what I thought happened to that dog to make it look/walk like that. I looked at the dog and told her, I don’t think anything _happened_ to that dog (i.e. disease, injury, birth defect), there are just some people who think that is the ideal form for a GSD. She was shocked!


----------



## lalachka

Yeah the perception is out there for sure. Nigel said he/she only saw one gsd with a roach and I myself only saw a few. But I don't see many gsds these days period. 

Anyway, I guess enough of them are out there and are seen by people for them to think that if there's no roach then it's not a gsd. 

I actually had the same comments made to me. That my dog is a mix (he might be, no papers) because he doesn't have the roach. 

The general public seems to expect it. Why - I'm not sure. Maybe saw enough outside, maybe pictures.


----------



## Nigel

lalachka said:


> Yeah the perception is out there for sure. Nigel said he/she only saw one gsd with a roach and I myself only saw a few. But I don't see many gsds these days period.
> 
> Anyway, I guess enough of them are out there and are seen by people for them to think that if there's no roach then it's not a gsd.
> 
> I actually had the same comments made to me. That my dog is a mix (he might be, no papers) because he doesn't have the roach.
> 
> The general public seems to expect it. Why - I'm not sure. Maybe saw enough outside, maybe pictures.


Besides the roach, this particular dog had horrible nerves as well. The owner had little control over it and it had lunged at my dog as well as a couple others. When a prong was suggested by the trainer they owner had a major fit and walked out. Looking at that dog from the side reminded me of my sons ferret.


----------



## SuperG

lalachka said:


> Lol my car broke down with my dog in it and the tow truck driver saw my dog, figured I'm a gsd expert and was like, why is it that all the dogs here have these horrible roached backs? They look crippled.
> 
> He's also from Russia, he's like, it struck me when I first came here, how bad they all look. Why are they being bred. Why aren't they taken out of the gene pool?
> 
> I didn't know what to say. Why ARE they being bred?


Because some breeders and GSD owners must prefer them....remember your mantra about being "judgmental".....

"To each their own" as the saying goes. 

SuperG


----------



## lalachka

Nigel said:


> Besides the roach, this particular dog had horrible nerves as well. The owner had little control over it and it had lunged at my dog as well as a couple others. When a prong was suggested by the trainer they owner had a major fit and walked out. Looking at that dog from the side reminded me of my sons ferret.



Lol ferret!!!! You're so right!!!!

So this dog was a total package lol


----------



## lalachka

SuperG said:


> Because some breeders and GSD owners must prefer them....remember your mantra about being "judgmental".....
> 
> "To each their own" as the saying goes.
> 
> SuperG



This is not about looks anymore. They're crippled. 

I still don't judge. Just trying to understand.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Lala… in my experience, it is not just about whether or not a dog has a “roach” back, rather it is also about extreme rear angulation. To me, when I look at the images that have been posted on other threads of Sieger winners going back in time, the ones from the ~90s on appear very asymmetrical and outright odd. By asymmetrical, I mean if you you were only presented with an image of the front half of the dog you would expect an entirely different look of the back half of the dog than what you actually see. On top of that, when I have seen dogs with this type of conformation in real life, they really do not look healthy in terms of the movement that their structure allows – so, it is not just about stacking. 

I am not a breed expert and I have no desire to become one so feel free to dismiss my observations : ) I am okay with that. Up until about 4-5 years ago, I really never gave a thought to the GSD breed (or any breed for that matter). All of a sudden it seemed that every foster dog I had was a GSD so I started researching the breed so that I could do the best by my foster dogs and educate adopters. Let’s just say I was really surprised to find out how complicated this breed seems to be.

I actually still remember being really surprised that there were so many different “lines” and that there was such huge variation in looks and temperament across the breed. I honestly remember thinking, what is the point of having a "breed" if there is so much variation within it ! 

Now, back to my earlier point about the rear angulation…
I did run across this post recently that starts out strong but ends up being just baffling/confusing/disappointing at the conclusion. 

Article by Leonhard Schweikert - translated - The German Shepherd Dog

Here is another’s take on it:
Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: German Shepherds - have they seen the light?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

LifeofRiley said:


> Article by Leonhard Schweikert - translated - The German Shepherd Dog


The image of the horses was a great visual. (and kind of creepy looking!)


----------



## Lucy Dog

lalachka said:


> This is not about looks anymore. They're crippled.
> 
> I still don't judge. Just trying to understand.


It looks uncomfortable to us, but I'm pretty sure a roached back isn't crippling the dog. It's just a different conformation.


----------



## shepherdmom

Life of Riley. Thanks for the links. Very interesting. I too liked the visual of the horse. 


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----------



## David Winners

Where do you get the low rider horses?


----------



## Xeph

I don't like super straight rears. There are some working lines I like very much, but they are ones that tend to have more angulation (and no, they aren't Czech).

One of the reasons people get a certain breed is how it looks (aesthetic). I care about temperament and personality, but there's nothing wrong with wanting it in (what I consider) a nice looking package.


----------



## my boy diesel

*It looks uncomfortable to us, but I'm pretty sure a roached back isn't crippling the dog. It's just a different conformation.* 
:thumbup:
i can think of a lot of different breeds especially these days that i would call crippled
pugs spring to mind
many pugs have little to no hip sockets 
english bulldogs
all the smash faced dogs who cant tolerate heat 
just for starters


----------



## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> I don't like super straight rears. There are some working lines I like very much, but they are ones that tend to have more angulation (and no, they aren't Czech).
> 
> One of the reasons people get a certain breed is how it looks (aesthetic). I care about temperament and personality, but there's nothing wrong with wanting it in (what I consider) a nice looking package.


Ditto!


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> *It looks uncomfortable to us, but I'm pretty sure a roached back isn't crippling the dog. It's just a different conformation.*
> :thumbup:
> i can think of a lot of different breeds especially these days that i would call crippled
> pugs spring to mind
> many pugs have little to no hip sockets
> english bulldogs
> all the smash faced dogs who cant tolerate heat
> just for starters



Just cause everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. 




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## my boy diesel

who said it was right??


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## SuperG

lalachka said:


> This is not about looks anymore. They're crippled.
> 
> I still don't judge. Just trying to understand.



"crippled" ??? Originally you stated "they look crippled"....now they are 100% bona fide crippled...I see.


They intentionally are breeding "crippled" GSDs? Wonder why the Kennel Clubs around the world allow the breeding of cripples ?


Hmmmmmmmm.....sounds like a judgment to me.


SuperG


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## Germanshepherdlove

Whiteshepherds said:


> The image of the horses was a great visual. (and kind of creepy looking!)


Agreed! That would cripple a horse, so I do think it's also crippling to a dog.


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## lalachka

When I talk about roached backs, I mean a roached back and no butt. I don't know the right words. 

So the dogs walk funny. To me that's crippled. 
I agree that the roach alone is not crippling, my boy has one and he's really fast (so far, will see what happens). But he has a pretty square butt. 

So I'm talking about the dogs with the roach going down abruptly at the butt. Like the pics earlier. And not even that extreme. I didn't like Odin either. But he's not crippled. 

Is there a definition on crippled? 
I'd think it's subjective. I see some people that i'd say are crippled but they're walking


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## Blanketback

Something I'm curious about: how much does tail set play into the aesthetics of the back? It seems to me that my current GSD's tail is placed much lower than my previous GSDs - and if it were up just a couple of inches then he'd definitely have that "square butt" look to him.


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## shepherdmom

Blanketback said:


> Something I'm curious about: how much does tail set play into the aesthetics of the back? It seems to me that my current GSD's tail is placed much lower than my previous GSDs - and if it were up just a couple of inches then he'd definitely have that "square butt" look to him.



Good question. I'm curious to this answer too. 



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## SuperG

lalachka said:


> When I talk about roached backs, I mean a roached back and no butt. I don't know the right words.
> 
> So the dogs walk funny. To me that's crippled.
> I agree that the roach alone is not crippling, my boy has one and he's really fast (so far, will see what happens). But he has a pretty square butt.
> 
> So I'm talking about the dogs with the roach going down abruptly at the butt. Like the pics earlier. And not even that extreme. I didn't like Odin either. But he's not crippled.
> 
> Is there a definition on crippled?
> I'd think it's subjective. I see some people that i'd say are crippled but they're walking


I agree....the term "crippled" can be used in a subjective manner. However, there are many a GSD which are "world class" and looks like they are walking on their hocks. 

I think it would be interesting if the Sieger winners of yesteryear could be put up against the more modern winners and witness the differences in performance and movement. Obviously, it can't happen....but my wager would be on the past champions.

Here's a couple links that are great examples of the slow changes over the years...perhaps you have seen them or they have already been posted. I disagree with some of the premises made by the author in the first link but the pictures do not lie. I believe the second link is much more objective as it only shows Sieger winners.

past to present in the german shepherd

Federation Winners


SuperG


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## Nigel

LifeofRiley said:


> Lala… in my experience, it is not just about whether or not a dog has a “roach” back, rather it is also about extreme rear angulation. To me, when I look at the images that have been posted on other threads of Sieger winners http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/436705-rehoming-gsds.html* back in time, the ones from the ~90s on appear very asymmetrical and outright odd. By asymmetrical, I mean if you you were only presented with an image of the front half of the dog you would expect an entirely different look of the back half of the dog than what you actually see*. On top of that, when I have seen dogs with this type of conformation in real life, they really do not look healthy in terms of the movement that their structure allows – so, it is not just about stacking.
> 
> I am not a breed expert and I have no desire to become one so feel free to dismiss my observations : ) I am okay with that. Up until about 4-5 years ago, I really never gave a thought to the GSD breed (or any breed for that matter). All of a sudden it seemed that every foster dog I had was a GSD so I started researching the breed so that I could do the best by my foster dogs and educate adopters. Let’s just say I was really surprised to find out how complicated this breed seems to be.
> 
> I actually still remember being really surprised that there were so many different “lines” and that there was such huge variation in looks and temperament across the breed. I honestly remember thinking, what is the point of having a "breed" if there is so much variation within it !
> 
> Now, back to my earlier point about the rear angulation…
> I did run across this post recently that starts out strong but ends up being just baffling/confusing/disappointing at the conclusion.
> 
> Article by Leonhard Schweikert - translated - The German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Here is another’s take on it:
> Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: German Shepherds - have they seen the light?


Good post, I agree, especially in bold. I knew little about gsds before getting our two BYB females. Tuke didn't look like most I've seen, but she does resemble those in the pics from the early 1900s. Her litter mate sister, Zoey looks like those from the 50s. 

I'm also not completely sure I understand what describes a "roach". The dog I referenced earlier had a very pronounced camel like hump.


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## wolfy dog

I have noticed that many dogs in the rescue and shelters look like the original GSD. Why is that?
I have had several clients with BYB GSDs who were to die for (the dogs)


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## lalachka

SuperG said:


> I agree....the term "crippled" can be used in a subjective manner. However, there are many a GSD which are "world class" and looks like they are walking on their hocks.
> 
> I think it would be interesting if the Sieger winners of yesteryear could be put up against the more modern winners and witness the differences in performance and movement. Obviously, it can't happen....but my wager would be on the past champions.
> 
> Here's a couple links that are great examples of the slow changes over the years...perhaps you have seen them or they have already been posted. I disagree with some of the premises made by the author in the first link but the pictures do not lie. I believe the second link is much more objective as it only shows Sieger winners.
> 
> past to present in the german shepherd
> 
> Federation Winners
> 
> 
> SuperG



I like 1940 to 1970. In 1970 the first roach is shown.


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## carmspack

the dog that I posted, VA7 Ondra von Ecclesia Nova
does represent when changes begin , with the use of Canto Wienerau , born in 68 , deceased 4 years later. Canto was "recommended" for improvements in the back .
First generation improvement shown, but people can't leave well enough alone and more is better , or is it . Intense inbreeding began and the trait was exaggerated.
Many other problems intensified, poor health, ligaments , temperament .


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## Vandal

shepherdmom said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Blanketback*
> _Something I'm curious about: how much does tail set play into the aesthetics of the back? It seems to me that my current GSD's tail is placed much lower than my previous GSDs - and if it were up just a couple of inches then he'd definitely have that "square butt" look to him._
> Good question. I'm curious to this answer too.


You are referring to the angle of the croup. There are numerous articles regarding the standard that explains the ideal angle of the croup, where the back is and how the withers should meet the back. When you understand correct, you will understand just how incorrect the dogs you are referring to are. Many dogs now have flat withers, a roached back and the croup just doesn't even appear to exist ...it's a straight downward drop after the roach...that's how incorrect it is. 

My experience with the people breeding these dogs is this. They are inexperienced and talk to a judge who tells them a story about how correct it is. Because this person is a judge...he MUST be right....and the story takes on a life of it's own. Others do know the truth but want to win so they go along with the story. 
The movement of the show GSDs now is so incorrect they have been forced to change the graphic for their shows to represent those poorly structured dogs. Sad and sick but that's the way things seem to go. Just like in SchH, you have people who want to believe, so they take up the party line knowing in the back of their mind that it is not really the truth but since they are participating in it, they need it to be something with meaning.....so let the fairy tales begin.


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## lalachka

Why did he die at 4?


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## Vandal

Read the article I posted on Page 12. He is discussed there as are some of the other topics in this thread.


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## lalachka

Vandal said:


> Read the article I posted on Page 12. He is discussed there as are some of the other topics in this thread.



The one in print? A pic of the article? I tried, almost impossible to do on the phone.


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## carmspack

digestive disorders, blood clotting disorder .... see ice berg breeders for the low down http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## lalachka

I was able to read it. So why didn't anyone listen to him? He's saying all the right (seems to me) things. 

Canto died of hemophilia? I don't think I saw his cause of death

ETA Carmen, I see. So why was a dog so sick bred? He has other qualities that were too amazing to be let go?


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## lhczth

The Canto type was very popular with international buyers. $$$$$$$$


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## carmspack

the dog that was given as an example , which people did not seem to like , 2x VA 1 Pirol von der Buchenhohe actually has a nice layback , natural withers , straight back and good length and placement of croup.

good structure --- 2X VA1 Pirol von der Buchenhöhe


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## lalachka

lhczth said:


> The Canto type was very popular with international buyers. $$$$$$$$



Why? They didn't know about his problems? His looks (I remember reading that it was his looks that made him popular or something like that) outweighed the health issues?


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## lalachka

carmspack said:


> the dog that was given as an example , which people did not seem to like , 2x VA 1 Pirol von der Buchenhohe actually has a nice layback , natural withers , straight back and good length and placement of croup.
> 
> good structure --- 2X VA1 Pirol von der Buchenhöhe



I like him. 

Anyway, I went to your link and saw an ad. No comments


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## Vandal

Canto was popular with the German breeders as well. There were certain things they were trying to accomplish by using him.....most all of it regarding structure. The Canto/Quanto cross was very popular during the 80s and 90s to achieve the structure they were looking for. Unfortunately, that cross was not the best at producing strong fight drive and the show lines started to deteriorate in that regard. Many people blame Quanto because he is associated by kennel name, relation and that cross. While not always known for producing fight drive, he had good character and produced it....unlike Canto who was weak in character and health.


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## lalachka

All this is very interesting. I wish a few people from here lived next door))))) and let me come, watch and ask questions. 

Anyway, I do understand how disappointing it must be for someone who really loves the breed and knows about it, to watch what's happening. The deterioration, irresponsible and thoughtless breeding and so on


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## SuperG

lalachka said:


> So why was a dog so sick bred? He has other qualities that were too amazing to be let go?


Unfortunately, some breeders are willing to accept certain flaws in certain departments in order to achieve a pup or two which brings out the quality they are breeding for....in certain breeds it is pathetic as to the shortcomings much of a litter might be subjected to.....but what the heck...if you get one keeper and 6 disasters..I guess that is considered successful breeding by some.

SuperG


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## shepherdmom

SuperG said:


> Unfortunately, some breeders are willing to accept certain flaws in certain departments in order to achieve a pup or two which brings out the quality they are breeding for....in certain breeds it is pathetic as to the shortcomings much of a litter might be subjected to.....but what the heck...if you get one keeper and 6 disasters..I guess that is considered successful breeding by some.
> 
> SuperG



Which wouldn't be as horrible if they were culling the other 6 but instead they are putting them under spay/neuter contract and sending them out into the pet world. 


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## carmspack

quote "was told by RCMP Police Dog Services that they went to the 
Czech working GSD lines because the Dogs could stay in Service longer
And were better able to go over obstacles to get there suspect. "

Compared to what?


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## SuperG

shepherdmom said:


> Which wouldn't be as horrible if they were culling the other 6 but instead they are putting them under spay/neuter contract and sending them out into the pet world.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly !!!

SuperG


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## LifeofRiley

I have always been curious to know when the GSD split from being one breed to one that has multiple and distinct lines all with very different characteristics? What happened and why? 

Was it always that way but just not known? Has globalization and technology made everyone more aware of differences that have always been within the breed? Random thoughts... : )


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## carmspack

there was a split pretty much from the start. 
"Breed" being a relatively new concept , where external uniformity is a priority . Dogs have always been at work and regions , having slightly different needs , would have type familiar to that area, because it functioned well, it worked.
Phylax society was for breeding a wolf-like looking dog with reliably erect ears.
Benched events for comparison and competition began , some things sacrificed to achieve a look , problems result ,and the working dogs are called on to correct things again.


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## SuperG

LifeofRiley said:


> I have always been curious to know when the GSD split from being one breed to one that has multiple and distinct lines all with very different characteristics? What happened and why?
> 
> Was it always that way but just not known? Has globalization and technology made everyone more aware of differences that have always been within the breed? Random thoughts... : )


In reference to your query......RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


I posted this a month or two ago.....found it interesting.

SuperG


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## shepherdmom

SuperG said:


> In reference to your query......RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different
> 
> 
> I posted this a month or two ago.....found it interesting.
> 
> SuperG


Those are Finnish shepherds, it would be interesting to see a study of how those are different from German lines and American lines.


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## LifeofRiley

shepherdmom said:


> Those are Finnish shepherds, it would be interesting to see a study of how those are different from German lines and American lines.


Yes, that would be very interesting. Ever since I started looking into purebred dogdom (which has been a very recent phenomena), I thought that the AKC was sitting on a huge untapped opportunity to monetize the data set they currently have, or could dictate receiving as part of the registration process. And, I suspect, if they were to move in that direction, they could off-set their dependence on registration fees which have, IMO, led them down the path of being an obstacle to healthy breeding programs.


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## Doc

Greed, politics, and money - the root of all evil - has ruined this breed.


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## sehrgutcsg

Doc said:


> Greed, politics, and money - the root of all evil - has ruined this breed.


There's a few more you left out: Ignorance, mismatching of species, breeding for color, breeding the largest to the largest, angulation preferences, the list could continue but I love my dog, flaw's included. It's not her fault of human intervention. Let's go for a walk, it's daybreak in CA. :wild: You know how I know it's daybreak, the bird's outside my window are singing !

SGCSG


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## David Winners

Mismatching of species? 

David Winners


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## SuperG

shepherdmom said:


> Those are Finnish shepherds, it would be interesting to see a study of how those are different from German lines and American lines.


Finnish Shepherds ??? Yes, the study took place in Finland and used 62 GSDs from Finland but is a "Finnish Shepherd" a variation?... or simply transplanted dogs from somewhere else in Europe?

SuperG


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## sehrgutcsg

David Winners said:


> Mismatching of species?
> 
> David Winners


Good morning David !!,

Just back from an hour walk, 5:45 - 6:53 - looking for sticks to chew on.. Found three.

I think I meant breed choice of pairs and mixing of breeds: a.k.a. mutts.

It's all good here, 6 months 63.5 lb. female. Training fair, working as hard as I can, for a Navy Sailor Guy, (that's a navy joke we spoke about 3 months ago).

Worked up a good morning sweat, re-hydrating with arrowhead water, looking for some love and acceptance, in this World of ammo, frauds, cons and thieve's. I think for the most part I got it covered... lol

Stay strong !!

SGCSG


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## Blanketback

Thank you for explaining my tail set question, Anne 

I have another question, which might seem silly but it's something I've often wondered: I know the GSDs that do win might not be to the liking of some, but what are the siblings like? I'm curious about that, because my dog is SL, and he had a noticeably different shape from some of his littermates. The breeder knew which puppies she wanted to keep back specifically for showing and he wasn't shaped the same way as they were. So, I was wondering if the GSDs chosen specifically for the show ring are truly a representation of what those entire lines are producing - if that makes sense?


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## shepherdmom

SuperG said:


> Finnish Shepherds ??? Yes, the study took place in Finland and used 62 GSDs from Finland but is a "Finnish Shepherd" a variation?... or simply transplanted dogs from somewhere else in Europe?
> 
> SuperG


IDK, :laugh: I'm a pet person. I know there are Czech lines, West German lines, DDR lines, Swiss lines, American lines..... I guess I was just assuming there was a Fin line.


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## David Winners

sehrgutcsg said:


> Good morning David !!,
> 
> Just back from an hour walk, 5:45 - 6:53 - looking for sticks to chew on.. Found three.
> 
> I think I meant breed choice of pairs and mixing of breeds: a.k.a. mutts.
> 
> It's all good here, 6 months 63.5 lb. female. Training fair, working as hard as I can, for a Navy Sailor Guy, (that's a navy joke we spoke about 3 months ago).
> 
> Worked up a good morning sweat, re-hydrating with arrowhead water, looking for some love and acceptance, in this World of ammo, frauds, cons and thieve's. I think for the most part I got it covered... lol
> 
> Stay strong !!
> 
> SGCSG


Sounds like a great morning! Glad to hear you're doing well  

David Winners


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