# How to stop puppy biting



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

My community service for the week 0.


Does your puppy bite? Here is how to make it stop.


As with anything, your puppy is engaging in this annoying and sometimes painful activity for a variety of reasons. He / she can be teething, bored or have a strong genetic impulse to grab moving things like your clothes or hands.


Regardless of the reasoning, this behaviour is unpleasant and needs to stop. 


Behavioural science teaches us that the most effective way to remove a behaviour is punishment. Now before you get your underclothes all bunched up in unpleasant places about the word "punishment" feel free to look up the scientific definition of the word. 
*Punishment* is anything that you remove or add after a behavior that reduces the likelihood of said behaviour being repeated. 
Think about that for a second and then decide for yourself about whether or not punishment is necessary for this particular problem.


Now we have discussed the means lets talk about the method:


Again, science and practical experience teach us that dogs learn faster through the application of neutral stimulus that bridge the gap between *behaviour* and *consequence*. An easy example of this concept is a clicker being used to mark and reinforce a sit. 
Lets say you told your dog to SIT and he did, you then clicked and gave the dog a treat.
In this example the* behaviour* is the sit, the *neutral stimulus* is the clicker and the *consequence* is the treat.
Now in the above example I used the application of Positive Reinforcement to a behaviour to depict the proper application of neutral stimulus to bridge the gap between behaviour and consequence. 


For *punishment* this concept is no different.


I use the word NO as the neutral stimulus or mark if you prefer. So in essence the word NO replaces a clicker to signal the application of punishment. Therefor the correct application of this concept is as follows:
BEHAVIOUR *(Biting) >> >* NEUTRAL STIMULUS *(NO)* >>> CONSEQUENCE *(Punishment)*


Now we know the method lets talk application:


How do I punish my puppy you ask? Well here are several methods that I have used in my practice and found to be effective and not harmful to the dog.


1. Collar correction: I recommend all pups drag a short line attached to their collar while they are in the house. Using this method of punishment simply involves picking up the line and applying a quick sharp pop to the line. Rinse and repeat as necessary If your pup is wearing a training collar like a choke or prong then the result will be more pronounced. Regardless of the collar, most pups find the sensation of sharp pops applied sideways to the collar to be unpleasant.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler picks up line and applies sharp pops until the pup ceases the behaviour if the pup reengages in the behaviour the handler simply repeats the above sequence. _


2. Bonking: For this method you need a rolled towel or a throw pillow for the couch. Something that has some heft yet is still soft and wont injure the pup. Simply toss your bonker at the pup when you want to punish him. Throw distances can vary from a few inches to 15 feet. Most dogs do not like flying objects and have an aversion to them.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler tosses the bonker at the pup - Handler picks up the bonker and reapplies if necessary_


3. Scruffing: Proper application of this method involves the handler simply taking the pup by the scruff firmly and giving him / her a light shake. *Special care needs to be taken to avoid any excessive back and forth movement. If anything you are giving the pup more of a strong vibration then an actual shake.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler tosses the bonker at the pup - Handler picks up the bonker and reapplies if necessary_

4. Teeth in lips: This method is a good way to remove a pup that has latched onto your body or clothing. Simply grab the top part of the puppies jaw and push his lips into his teeth until he lets go.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler wraps hand around the top of the pups jaw and squeezes the lips inwards until the pup ceases the behaviour - Repetition as necessary_

The above are tried, tested and true methods that I have used many times with great success to stop this common issue. 


Some issues people run into with these methods is that the pup constantly reengages in the behaviour or does not cease the behaviour after the handler punishes the dog. In almost all cases this is simply an intensity problem. Remember, in order for the punishment to work and even be considered a punishment in the first place, the pup must perceive your method of choice as an aversive (unpleasant) experience. So if you apply your method of choice and do not see a reduction in the behaviour simply reapply with progressively higher intensity until the behaviour has ceased.


Punishment requires three key ingredients to be effective:
1. Repetition
2. Consistency
3. Intensity


I will conclude with following cautions and reassurances. The fair application of contingent punishment will not have any averse long term effect on your pup's health, emotional stability or well being. Science as well practical experience has taught us this. Teaching alternate behaviours or redirection has a very limited success rate. The application of this method will also have the added bonus of teaching your pup the concept of the word NO and actually making it meaningful. This method can be applied to any bad behavior your pup has.


Happy Training


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Edited version admin please delete previous post:

My community service for the week 0.


Does your puppy bite? Here is how to make it stop.


As with anything, your puppy is engaging in this annoying and sometimes painful activity for a variety of reasons. He / she can be teething, bored or have a strong genetic impulse to grab moving things like your clothes or hands.


Regardless of the reasoning, this behaviour is unpleasant and needs to stop. 


Behavioural science teaches us that the most effective way to remove a behaviour is punishment. Now before you get your underclothes all bunched up in unpleasant places about the word "punishment" feel free to look up the scientific definition of the word. 
*Punishment* is anything that you remove or add after a behavior that reduces the likelihood of said behaviour being repeated. 
Think about that for a second and then decide for yourself about whether or not punishment is necessary for this particular problem.


Now we have discussed the means lets talk about the method:


Again, science and practical experience teach us that dogs learn faster through the application of a neutral stimulus to bridge the gap between *behaviour* and *consequence*. An easy example of this concept is a clicker being used to mark and reinforce a sit. 
Lets say you told your dog to SIT and he did, you then clicked and gave the dog a treat.
In this example the* behaviour* is the sit, the *neutral stimulus* is the clicker and the *consequence* is the treat.
Now in the above example I used the application of Positive Reinforcement to a behaviour to depict the proper application of neutral stimulus to bridge the gap between behaviour and consequence. 

For *punishment* this concept is no different.

I use the word NO as the neutral stimulus or mark if you prefer. So in essence the word NO replaces a clicker to signal the application of punishment. Therefor the correct application of this concept is as follows:
BEHAVIOUR *(Biting) >> >* NEUTRAL STIMULUS *(NO)* >>> CONSEQUENCE *(Punishment)*

Using this method properly will make it easy for your pup to understand that the punishment is a direct consequence of his biting.

Now we know the method lets talk application:


How do I punish my puppy you ask? Well here are several methods that I have used in my practice and found to be effective and not harmful to the dog.


1. Collar correction: I recommend all pups drag a short line attached to their collar while they are in the house. Using this method of punishment simply involves picking up the line and applying a quick sharp pop to the line. Rinse and repeat as necessary If your pup is wearing a training collar like a choke or prong then the result will be more pronounced. Regardless of the collar, most pups find the sensation of sharp pops applied sideways to the collar to be unpleasant.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler picks up line and applies sharp pops until the pup ceases the behaviour if the pup reengages in the behaviour the handler simply repeats the above sequence. _


2. Bonking: For this method you need a rolled towel or a throw pillow for the couch. Something that has some heft yet is still soft and wont injure the pup. Simply toss your bonker at the pup when you want to punish him. Throw distances can vary from a few inches to 15 feet. Most dogs do not like flying objects and have an aversion to them.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler tosses the bonker at the pup - Handler picks up the bonker and reapplies if necessary_


3. Scruffing: Proper application of this method involves the handler simply taking the pup by the scruff firmly and giving him / her a light shake. *Special care needs to be taken to avoid any excessive back and forth movement. If anything you are giving the pup more of a strong vibration then an actual shake.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler tosses the bonker at the pup - Handler picks up the bonker and reapplies if necessary_

4. Teeth in lips: This method is a good way to remove a pup that has latched onto your body or clothing. Simply grab the top part of the puppies jaw and push his lips into his teeth until he lets go.
_Example: Puppy bites - NO - Handler wraps hand around the top of the pups jaw and squeezes the lips inwards until the pup ceases the behaviour - Repetition as necessary_

The above are tried, tested and true methods that I have used many times with great success to stop this common issue. 

Some issues people run into with these methods are that the pup constantly reengages in the behaviour or does not cease the behaviour after the handler punishes the dog. In almost all cases this is simply an intensity problem. Remember, in order for the punishment to work and even be considered a punishment in the first place, the pup must perceive your method of choice as an aversive (unpleasant) experience. So if you apply your method of choice and do not see a reduction in the behaviour simply reapply with progressively higher intensity until the behaviour has ceased.


Punishment requires three key ingredients to be effective:
1. Repetition
2. Consistency
3. Intensity


I will conclude with following cautions and reassurances. The fair application of contingent punishment will not have any averse long term effect on your pup's health, emotional stability or well being. Science as well practical experience has taught us this. Teaching alternate behaviours or redirection has a very limited success rate. The application of this method will also have the added bonus of teaching your pup the concept of the word NO and actually making it meaningful. This method can be applied to any bad behavior your pup has.


Happy Training


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So with no discussion of pupp's age, proper management, owner skill, previous interventions tried....

Going straight to does your puppy bite, ok, collar correction, scruff shake, or bonk it....I don't feel good about this at all. We just had someone on here with a puppy doing all kinds of appeasement behaviors and it turns out they scruff shook the pup and it screamed in fear.

I never did any of those things to my puppy. He started getting collar corrections around 9 months when he became huge and tried to throw his weight around with me.

Average joe people don't know what age certain corrections are appropriate, average joe people don't know why their puppy is biting, or even what proper management of a puppy is....


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So with no discussion of pupp's age, proper management, owner skill, previous interventions tried....
> 
> Going straight to does your puppy bite, ok, collar correction, scruff shake, or bonk it....I don't feel good about this at all. We just had someone on here with a puppy doing all kinds of appeasement behaviors and it turns out they scruff shook the pup and it screamed in fear.
> 
> ...


I agree. I found keeping my puppy busy did better than crushing him.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Like many people you are over complicating a very simple solution to a very common problem. Using emotionally charged teminology like "screaming in fear" or "crushing" signals a fundemental lack of understanding of how contingent punishment affects dogs or really any living organism. I won't really bother to explain further. Interested parties can do their own research.

Many pups never develop biting behaviours or if they do do not take to it with any kind of intensity.
In these cases the behaviour will often self extinguish if they are not reinforced. 

For those people that do have a significant issue with biting and aren't content to pretend it doesn't exist, wait until it self extinguishes or try to bribe the dog into alternate behaviours this is how you fix the problem immidiately.

Train a few hundred dogs of varying ages with this and other similar issues then get back to me.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I will also add that people that refrain from correcting their puppy until he or she reaches some magical age where it's appropriate or developes a behaviour that is aggregious enough that they feel they have no other choice do their dog no favors. If anything you hurt your pup by not showing him clarity from day 1. 

Contrary to popular belief owning a puppy does not mean you have to put up with annoying, destructive and socially innapropriate behaviours. 

Contingent punishment brings clarity to the learning process, makes the pup safer and also in my opinion makes the puppy stronger and more resilient in how he or she handles stress.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I have had success with option 4......pressing the flews into the canines......I suppose many will say it's wrong.....but it worked with 4 different dogs.


SuperG


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SuperG said:


> I have had success with option 4......pressing the flews into the canines......I suppose many will say it's wrong.....but it worked with 4 different dogs.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Option 4 is my chosen method too.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Blitzkrieg I absolutely don't think that people should put up with annoying, destructive or socially inappropriate behaviors from a puppy. But there are other ways to deal with them than those you described.

Is there a magical age after which corrections are appropriate/necessary....no...but dealing withthe dog in a way that is appropriate for its age IS important. I never gave my dog a leash correction when he was a baby because he had never done anything that warranted one. So should I have been popping him from day one just to teach him the ways of the world? I don't think so. He is growing into a super young adult that I am quite proud of. He absolutely had boundaries and discipline that was appropriate for him and it did not include any of the techniques you described.

There are rascal, resiliant puppies who need a lot more structure and discipline from their people. There are also lots of people/puppy combinations that I strongly believe should not be using to techniques you described, in large part because lots of people have terrible timing, terrible application or the pup's manageme t and environeent is poor and it is being set up to fail,, plus there are huge amounts of puppies out there that aren't that resilient or are really soft/submissive and this might be way to heavy handed for them. 

Now you can go ahead and say a properly bred working line dog shouldn't be soft or submissive or whatever but the fact is that many people buy their dogs from bybs.

Call me emotional or whatever you want. I hope interested parties do research. There is more than one way to train a dog and not all puppies need to be handledd like this


----------



## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

I had immediate success with 3 and 4. I have used 3 with all of my dogs with great results.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When Max was a pup that you couldn't sit on the floor with with just constantly redirecting with a toy he always had to have something in his mouth if it was not a toy it was a person. #1 Leash correcting worked for us it had to be reminded often though. Eventually he listened to "no biting" and again had to be done before he was going to bite. All done with so much repetition! It took awhile for it to stick without being reminded often. Anything physical his brain would bust and get into the puppy crazies thinking it's a big game and even jump on us -so -he kept us or more myself from loosing patience.rThankfully our new pup has Max. I think we felt our pups Luna's teeth on us twice that's not counting knibbles which I know she secretly indulges scraping her teeth against our skin. A simple ouch was all it took for Luna not to bite /teeth on us but that is because she has Max who is more the willing to play with and that makes a tremendous difference.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I have to amend my previous post of using option #4......that's what I did for nuisance puppy biting. However...since I roughhoused with all of them... teaching them appropriate bite pressure when playing super schutzhund puppy games was required....when they would get a bit overzealous...the consequence was my honest reaction/opinion usually coupled with a break in the action.......the pups all seemed to get it quick enough and only clamped on to my forearm with much less pressure. Eventually...they all learned how to slide off the full bite and just grab hold of the shirt, pant leg, sweatshirt etc..with no flesh involved...and then try and shake me like a rag doll....It was good training in case my lawn in the backyard ever caught on fire and I was incapacitated ....I figured the dog could drag me to safety...just like Lassie. Why I get strange looks from my neighbors......I'll never know.....


SuperG


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Actually the timing is very easy to get.. 
Time starts when the puppy bites. I have taught numerous people this and they have never had an issue grasping the concept. If anything the only repetitive issue I see people have is not using sufficient intensity in their correction level. 

I have seen people return or rehome nippy pups because they could not handle or stop the behavior. I have seen dogs that where almost a year still putting teeth into the owners and drawing blood.
The consequences for not stopping the behaviour immediately can be dire for some dogs. 

FYI I do not ever recommend making noises other then marking a punishment when the dog bites you. In many cases it actually reinforces the behaviour.

Worrying about imaginary side effects gets you no where.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Raising an IPO puppy, I don't punish Raff for puppy biting. He easily redirects onto a toy and happily trots around with the prize he just won from me.

If you're considering IPO, PPD or other bite sport, don't be using any of the above punishments. Redirect, redirect, redirect onto an appropriate toy.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Another stupid myth. You must allow your sport dog to act like a hooligan or he won't work. I wonder how you equate allowing your puppy to bite you to his ability to preform protection? Lol never mind I don't want to know.

I just bred and raised a litter of Malinois didn't allow any of the pups to chew on me nor do their handlers, they work just fine including my holdback who I have corrected numerous times for various things. 
Handle, train and do protection with numerous GSD never an issue. 

So no you don't need to put up with your sport puppy chewing on you nor should you.

If your dog has issues with his protection look no further then his genetic quality or the ability of the helper.


----------



## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

*I have seen people return or rehome nippy pups because they could not handle or stop the behavior. I have seen dogs that where almost a year still putting teeth into the owners and drawing blood.
The consequences for not stopping the behaviour immediately can be dire for some dogs. 

*This is why I have the pup I now have. Exactly the reason. Made it in his second home for all of two days!So I agree, it is a problem for some dogs. I was unsure how to handle it exactly. He is not my first 6 mo old nipper, but he is the first one that does it with such intensity.The other dog I had that nipped (previously a kennel dog) was effected by the human reaction to being hurt. He did not like it, so nipping / reaction was self correcting fairly quickly. I have to agree that in this pup, it was somehow reinforced and unintentionally trained into him. He has been much, much better here, but still the behavior is still cropping up*. 

*Thanks for the suggestions on how to handle it!


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

zetti said:


> Raising an IPO puppy, I don't punish Raff for puppy biting. He easily redirects onto a toy and happily trots around with the prize he just won from me.
> 
> If you're considering IPO, PPD or other bite sport, don't be using any of the above punishments. Redirect, redirect, redirect onto an appropriate toy.


A few firm NO's, maybe a light tap on the nose, and a redirect is pretty much all I do. I don't over correct.



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Another stupid myth. You must allow your sport dog to act like a hooligan or he won't work. I wonder how you equate allowing your puppy to bite you to his ability to preform protection? Lol never mind I don't want to know.
> 
> I just bred and raised a litter of Malinois didn't allow any of the pups to chew on me nor do their handlers, they work just fine including my holdback who I have corrected numerous times for various things.
> Handle, train and do protection with numerous GSD never an issue.
> ...


In my experience, it's just a waiting game with pups. Waiting for them to bond with the handler, and waiting for their brains to realize that biting the handler causes pain. They usually stop after 6 months.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks for posting some alternative ways to teach puppies not to bite. I can see these techniques being useful for a tough puppy or a stubborn older puppy that has been allowed to get away with bad habits. 

Every puppy I've ever had from pomeranians and papillons and shelties to GSDs has done some mouthing. Heck, even my human baby tries to chew on my fingers occasionally as he is teething! I usually just redirect and ignore. I've never had a puppy that didn't respond to that, and I've never had a puppy who made me bleed, but I am sure that they are out there. I admit to having used the lip under the teeth technique to make my puppies drop things that they shouldn't have.

I recently read a post on another forum about a GSD who was still play-biting/mouthing his owner at 1-year-old, among other issues. I don't know why some dogs seem to persist in biting. Maybe it is a genetic issue or poor training, or an environmental factor, or a combination of things. (That particular dog has no fenced yard and is not being taken for walks b/c he's out of control on the leash.)


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of the puppy biting can be controlled with management too. Redirect, redirect, redirect! Play with pup, so interaction with human has a set pattern. Tire pup out, set up nap times. A lot of the crazy landsharking that can't be stopped comes from an over-tired puppy having a meltdown. 

Lots of good results from average folks on this forum who implemented regular nap-times into their puppies' daily routine and saw huge improvements in behaviour.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Naps for puppies are the best.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Funny. All of my pup's have been biters. Rosko the golden/ German mix was the worst. Followed by Athena a really close second and Apollo third. I never had to do anything. I looked at them coming up to me wanting to bite and gnaw on me as OK time to play with the puppy. Lots of tug and wrestling. I remember when Rosko was 11-12 weeks old biting and I said Rosko quit and gave him a light tap in the muzzle. my father saying to me. Puppies play with their mouth and biting is a part of it. If you didn't wanna play and interact with a pup and that includes the pup biting, you should have gotten an adult dog. Guess that made sense to me. Now none of my pup's bite on people. Except occasionally Apollo nipping my wife in the butt when she gets home. And that is rare. So not an issue. It looks to me more like he jabs her with his nose to get her inside. 
Anyway, I recommend when the pup wants to bite that means you play with the pup. Play, train, crate time for the dog to learn to chill a little, and chew toys, and chew snacks. 
I think a lot of people use the whole puppy nipping thing as an excuse to get rid of a dog cause their just lazy and don't wanna devote the time it takes to raise a pup proper.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> Naps for puppies are the best.


And for the owners...:wink2:


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Another stupid myth. You must allow your sport dog to act like a hooligan or he won't work. I wonder how you equate allowing your puppy to bite you to his ability to preform protection? Lol never mind I don't want to know.
> 
> I just bred and raised a litter of Malinois didn't allow any of the pups to chew on me nor do their handlers, they work just fine including my holdback who I have corrected numerous times for various things.
> Handle, train and do protection with numerous GSD never an issue.
> ...


Oh this times a million. I raised my last dog that way, old school don't stop the biting or you'll "break" him, let him be crazy or you'll "crush" him and he won't be able to do sport...result? High high drive 85 pound adult that acted like a 12 week old puppy in a lot of ways. Of course it depends on the dog, and I had a dog that A)was high energy and high drive and B) was pretty unaffected by hard corrections as an adult and C) was on the much lower end of biddability as an adult so he didn't really care too much about anything other than himself.

Of course it's all about balance. I correct and then redirect. I prefer leash corrections to hands on, I don't want a dog to be hand shy. Long drag line on the dog/puppy allows me to always be able to correct. Clear and fair. And I agree, most of the time the owner actually isn't giving an intense enough correction. Timing on ending biting and timing on fixing an adult that won't heal (for example) are actually some of the easiest things to teach timing on...intensity (or lack there of) is usually more of the problem, I find.

Today I also wonder, if manners and not letting the dog bite me "breaks" him, do I want to work that dog in sport??? But, most would frown at that line of thought. lol
I like the push the lip into the tooth method, personally.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Another stupid myth. You must allow your sport dog to act like a hooligan or he won't work. I wonder how you equate allowing your puppy to bite you to his ability to preform protection? Lol never mind I don't want to know.
> 
> I just bred and raised a litter of Malinois didn't allow any of the pups to chew on me nor do their handlers, they work just fine including my holdback who I have corrected numerous times for various things.
> Handle, train and do protection with numerous GSD never an issue.
> ...


When Raff play bites, he's not biting me per se, what he wants is a tug game with my clothes. He sometimes nails my leg in the process. He has an impressive grip.

The redirect works so well and so easily, I don't feel the need to escalate to punishment. I'm merely collateral damage.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

"collateral damage" at times can have severe consequences if left unchecked....dogs don't get the benefit of a "twinkie defense".......

Bite accuracy and pressures...when playing....is a significant behavior a dog must learn.....don't know how effectively a redirect will get the message through to the dog.... .all IMHO.


SuperG


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Redirecting your dog teaches it nothing nor does it prevent biting. 
If you want to reinforce your dogs bad behaviours that your business. However, since I posted this thread for people who are interested in a well behaved dog your pouting on the wrong thread.

Many pups simply are not that strong in the behaviour hence why they do not show commitment to the biting or "grow" out of it. It simply is not all that intrinsically rewarding for them.

On the other hand many do find this behaviour intrinsically rewarding. Perhaps the handler makes fun noises like "ouch", some are drawn to use the biting as a drive outlet, some learn that they can get their way in certain situations by using their mouth..the list goes on.

I think it's foolish to wait and see if the dog will grow out of it or try to redirect the dog incessantly and tire him out just so he will behave. Simply stop the behaviour in its tracks.

This brings me to another myth often perpetrated. Your puppy needs hours of exercise to tire him out everyday so he doesn't act like a jerk.. I have had several clients with WL GSD come to me with this idea. Nope your dog needs training and a basic understanding of what he isn't allowed to do. 

Living with a puppy regardless of the drive level should be easy. If it's not look at your training.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Another stupid myth. You must allow your sport dog to act like a hooligan or he won't work. I wonder how you equate allowing your puppy to bite you to his ability to preform protection? Lol never mind I don't want to know.
> ...


When I first got into the game I was told this stupid story as well. Didn't take me long to figure out that wasn't for me. Ifor I can't live with the dog he is useless to me. If teaching him manners breaks his working group ability then he isn't the right dog for me. That being said even lower quality dogs are able to discern the difference between a training field and your living room so I simply don't find this to be the case.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *Redirecting your dog teaches it nothing nor does it prevent biting.*
> If you want to reinforce your dogs bad behaviours that your business. However, since I posted this thread for people who are interested in a well behaved dog your pouting on the wrong thread.


Yet it has worked for so many people.. So clearly, it does prevent biting as the dog grows and matures...

I have nothing against people wanting to go straight to corrections, but to make a bold statement like that is just wrong and incorrect..


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I'm personally not a fan of any physical correction of a puppy. For me physical corrections come once a dog understands why it's being corrected. Puppies don't understand yet. A lot of the time when they are biting they are exploring. Look how they play with each other. Lots of teeth clacking and biting. For me it's all about management. If a puppy is super bitey. That usually tells me they are active and have enough energy to learn. So I use it to my advantage. Pull out a toy and start working grip development. Bite dig, bite dig, bite dig. Generally they will wear themselves out. Or I use that time to teach other things. I've raised a good number of puppies, and IME they tend to grow out of it themselves once teething is over.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The thing is a lot of "newbies" miss the window of opportunity where a "slow roll" could have worked. 
Most likely among the fails are:: 

*1) Redirect with a toy
2) Turn your back
3) And squeal like a piggy
*
Puppies will get corrected by "Momma" and I'm not a "Breeder" ... but I doubt "Momma" does any of those three??? That kinda sorta speaks to taking direct action?? 

I would "imagine" having a six month plus puppy, chomping on ones hands, feet and arms would start to get old after a few months?? And if one is doing something and it's not working ... then they need to do something different?? 

But "some" cringe at "laying hands" on a puppy or leash "corrections" there is still another direction action "option." The Pet Convincer. :
Pet Convincer.com

Or use a "Bicycle Air Pump" about half the cost and it should not be aimed at the puppy/dogs eyes or ears.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> However, since I posted this thread for people who are interested in a well behaved dog your pouting on the wrong thread.



Really? Someone disagrees with you and instead of responding like an adult you write this? Rude, plain and simple.


----------



## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

Are you guys maybe over simplifying this? 

There are different dogs and different ages coming from different backgrounds with nipping occurring at different times. 

So what works and is appropriate for some, will not work and is inappropriate for others? There is also different levels of tolerance from different owners. No mouth vs soft mouth.

I think it is great if redirect works. Perfect if ignoring the dog after he gets nippy works (it has worked for me in the past). The squeal thing I am doubtful of unless it really hurts and you are truly pissed off which is similar to stopping all interactions and ignoring the pup. Let the dog figure it out.

But sometimes these do not work and you need different tools.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The thing is a lot of "newbies" miss the window of opportunity where a "slow roll" could have worked.
> Most likely among the fails are::
> 
> *1) Redirect with a toy
> ...


I thought you stuck to rescues? I didn't know you did puppies? What are your experiences with 8 weeks to 6 mos? Have you found any issues with the pet convincer (or bike pump) in young puppies?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I thought you stuck to rescues? I didn't know you did puppies? What are your experiences with 8 weeks to 6 mos? Have you found any issues with the pet convincer (or bike pump) in young puppies?


These days yes "rescues" and none of them have been biters. 

The puppies were mine many many years ago ... "Band Dawg/APBT/Boxers and Boxers pretty sure I did the muzzle grab and a no and beyond that I went with a "Soft Bite Approach." We played "ruff." So I went with control and I said when enough was enough.

They did chomp on me but ... not really transferable?? They did continue to chomp on my wife for a bit as she did more of the "Squeal Like a pig" Struddell thought ... wow cool again!! And then she tried the turn the back thing ... Ok I'll bite you in the butt! But after a bit they got the verbal and "No" sufficed. They never chomped on guest but "Struddel" would lick the crap out of people! 

That's "roughly" what I did but to many years have passed to recount exactly?? When I get another puppy ... I'll keep better track of what I do. 

But the PC and I'll add the Bonker aslo, when I first became aware of them ... I thought they were a Joke?? But the trainers "I" follow that deal with dogs with serious issues. Kept mentioning them again and again??? 

But I'm a "Show me" kinda guy and those guys "show there work!" And when they finally posted clips, I was convinced so I started to share that information. And ... "specifically" to your question and how the "PC" works in the real world for "regular folks?? Here you go.:

Pet Convincer Question (Chip18 this is for you!) - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And folks seem to already be having a cow becasue I pointed to the all time favorite "everybody does this" go to's??? 

I did not say those can't work, I did say that those that come here in desperation becasue there puppy is biting the crap out of them .. have most likely tried those and ... it ain't work out??? 

My wife proved number two and three to be a "Fail" with "our" puppies and I'm not a turn my back or squeal like a pig kinda guy .. so I never bothered with those. But hey with the right puppy (whatever that may mean??) Those might work out just fine??? But if they don't ... do something different.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I could not disagree more with the statement that redirecting doesn't work. Redirecting is how I taught both of my 2 most recent GSDs what was acceptable to chew on. 

One of the things no means to my dogs is "this will not be permitted". I do start that from baby babies. But when they are babies I say no and then make it physically impossible for them to repeat whatever it was so they understand it is not negotiable. But that does not mean they are going to get a physical correction. They might get a crate time out, they might get a non punitive physical intervention like being led away by a leash from a thing that they want to chew but shouldnt. 

My dog is soft and he is sensitive and if I had gotten on here, read this and not known any better and started scruff shaking him or throwing stuff at him I think the result would have been very poor.

Maybe there are puppies who could benefit from this type of discipline, I try not to get too black and white in my thinking so as the rule out possibilities I have not encountered.

There are DEFINITELY puppies who don't need this type of discipline because I do have experience with those.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Have you found any issues with the pet convincer (or bike pump) in young puppies?


Part two ... "nope no first hand experiance" thus far "SLL" is the only tool "Rescues" will actually hand to you! 

And thus far it's all I've needed. In retrospect ... I suppose I missed an opportunity to test, the PC with my "24 hour" former cat chasing "Pit of the street rescue??" Most likely ... the "PC" would have worked just fine?? I had to "roll hard with a SLL as that is what I had at hand! I was it worked out fine but, I was disappointed becasue I couldn't honestly say "anyone can do this. 

Bunch of people on "Boxer Forum" whining and crying over Cat chasing dogs! And they aren't getting the "Cat never chases the dog bit" and no way are most of them willing or capable of delivering the kind of correction I had to with a SLL ... but the "PC" for a correction and a no chase policy ... yeah ... that might work!! And most likely ... the "PC" could also sneak in under the radar with rescue groups! Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I could not disagree more with the statement that redirecting doesn't work. Redirecting is how I taught both of my 2 most recent GSDs what was acceptable to chew on.
> 
> One of the things no means to my dogs is "this will not be permitted". I do start that from baby babies. But when they are babies I say no and then make it physically impossible for them to repeat whatever it was so they understand it is not negotiable. But that does not mean they are going to get a physical correction. They might get a crate time out, they might get a non punitive physical intervention like being led away by a leash from a thing that they want to chew but shouldnt.
> 
> ...


 You gave the "characterisation" of the "types of dogs all those things I named will work on not me. 

As for "redirect" well "apparently" like "corrections" that is subject to interpretation?? The owners that come here with 6 months +, puppies biting the crap out of them, have already "most likely tried "that" and it did not work for them, if it did ... they would not be here for "biting puppies??" And they would mostly have no idea what a "Soft or a Hard" puppy is??? 

The people that "know what they are doing" know how to "work with the puppy" in front of them. Those that haven't figured that out yet ... apparently get the "crap bit out of them" until they do???

If they can stop that problem "right now" then they can come up for air and will be in a better postion to move forward. The thread is about giving people "options" no one solution fits all??

But put me in the address the "issue directly camp." For some reason when I did pick my puppies they tend to be the most "resilient" of the litters worked out fine.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Part two ... "nope no first hand experiance" thus far "SLL" is the only tool "Rescues" will actually hand to you!
> 
> And thus far it's all I've needed. In retrospect ... I suppose I missed an opportunity to test, the PC with my "24 hour" former cat chasing "Pit of the street rescue??" Most likely ... the "PC" would have worked just fine?? I had to "roll hard with a SLL as that is what I had at hand! I was it worked out fine but, I was disappointed becasue I couldn't honestly say "anyone can do this.
> 
> Bunch of people on "Boxer Forum" whining and crying over Cat chasing dogs! And they aren't getting the "Cat never chases the dog bit" and no way are most of them willing or capable of delivering the kind of correction I had to with a SLL ... but the "PC" for a correction and a no chase policy ... yeah ... that might work!! And most likely ... the "PC" could also sneak in under the radar with rescue groups! Thanks for reminding me.



Am I understanding that you have only used the SLL when correcting a dog and not all the other things you suggest people do? Without knowing if they'll work? Because of videos you saw? And you think suggesting the PC for a cat chasing/killing dog _might_ work and would suggest trying it? The cat could be dead by then! I can promise you it would never stop any dog I've ever had that chased cats, if I could chase after them fast enough to use it!


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

ĪFunnily enough, I too, was able to put a stop to puppy biting without having to use physical corrections. 

Management, redirection, and negative punishment (removing myself) worked for my guy.

Not saying that will work for all dogs and owners, just like the techniques in the OP'S thread might not be the right choice for all dogs. 

But it worked for me. And apparently several other posters on this tread ^_^


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip you will notice I said that from my experience raising puppies there definitely are puppies for whom redirection and proper management work fine.....

I also said I try keep an open mind that there are dogs and situations I have not encountered and those might require corrections mentioned in this thread. 

My main goal in posting here was so that if someone came along and read this they would then know that the OP's methods are not always necessary or the only way.

I have met two adolescent GSDS with bad manners, still biting at an age where it is no longer tolerable or acceptable. Both were raised by people who almost certainly were doing a lot wrong...were super unprepared to own a gsd, and I feel like adding corrections like this without a trainers help just from reading it on the internet....into that already messy environment...well...that just rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I think the key word people are missing is management. Puppies don't need to be free and loose every second of every day. So when my puppies are going crazy, they either work or get put up. They are super mouthy, I either channel it into something productive or put them up. Problem solved. IME once they are done teething, the mouthy behavior usually stops. My experience doesn't just come from my puppies, but my recent litter, client/club dogs, board and trains and so on.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

To add on to what CobraRacr said... I have encountered this in other people and to a lesser extent, myself...where you do something one or even ten times, and if you still have to do it you think maybe it wasn't working so you give up.

What I have found is that it was working, it just wasn't done yet. The pup hadn't had enough repetitions, or wasn't old enough to be able to apply it or remember, quite yet, or whatever. I don't know what the magic number is. And anyway it is probably different for each puppy. But sometimes I have found there is just no replacement for good ole perseverance.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> ĪFunnily enough, I too, was able to put a stop to puppy biting without having to use physical corrections.
> 
> Management, redirection, and negative punishment (removing myself) worked for my guy.
> 
> ...


I have had a lot of biting puppies. All but one didn't bite and that dog was not a German Shepherd. My older one didn't bite hands, she preferred noses, even if it meant jumping. I never had to use punishment or a harsh correction. With one dog, I pushed in on its lip, the dog bit itself on accident and never bit again. That was more an accident than intentional on my part. The nose biter got redirected. My other dogs got treats in a fist, or a change of environment (crating, going outside) or a lot of other creative ideas. Going right to a strong correction shows a lack of creativity. For me that would be a last resort and then only if nothing else worked at all.

I also think people who buy older puppies or buy pretrained dogs haven't had the same kind of experience with our breed as those who get puppies at 8 weeks.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> I think the key word people are missing is management. Puppies don't need to be free and loose every second of every day. So when my puppies are going crazy, they either work or get put up. They are super mouthy, I either channel it into something productive or put them up. Problem solved. IME once they are done teething, the mouthy behavior usually stops. My experience doesn't just come from my puppies, but my recent litter, client/club dogs, board and trains and so on.


Yes. Absolutely. 

I find most of bad puppy and dog behavior can be managed. I personally am not comfortable using physical corrections during the teaching phases of training for most dogs. So pups get put up a lot while learning rules and commands.

It works for me, my lifestyle, and the dogs that I have owned.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I think the key word people are missing is management. Puppies don't need to be free and loose every second of every day. So when my puppies are going crazy, they either work or get put up. They are super mouthy, I either channel it into something productive or put them up. Problem solved. IME once they are done teething, the mouthy behavior usually stops. My experience doesn't just come from my puppies, but my recent litter, client/club dogs, board and trains and so on.


Exactly. Use common sense. Do what fits the dog in front of you at that moment in time. Puppies need exercise and they also need time alone to learn how to calm themselves and settle. One-size-fits-all doesn't work and will lead to problems down the road.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> Am I understanding that you have only used the SLL when correcting a dog and not all the other things you suggest people do? Without knowing if they'll work? Because of videos you saw? And you think suggesting the PC for a cat chasing/killing dog _might_ work and would suggest trying it? The cat could be dead by then! I can promise you it would never stop any dog I've ever had that chased cats,* if I could chase after them fast enough to use it!*


Well thanks for the part in bold. Dog v Cat 101 ... use a freaking leash! If you have to "chase the dog to deliver a an "aversive" then you've already "screwed up!" You're not gonna "deliver an effective "consequence" if you have to chase down the dog first???

I'd have luv'd to see the "individual" that would "think they'd have a hope in HE$$ of stopping "Sally" leash free?? Now that... would be a fool! 

So to answer your question ... yes I will be recommending the "PC" as an "aversive" on "Boxerforum" what those members are doing now is clearly not working. And I was out of ideas?? They will tell me if the "PC" works?? 

And as for me as regards the "SLL" yes ... thus far ... all I use! But don't sweat it I heard from no less than "Jeff Gellman" that you can't use a "SLL" to properly correct a dog??? That came as news to me??? But until my "Pit Chasing Cat" experiance ... I never had the need to "seriously" correct a dog. Any corrections given before are pretty much transparent to on looker. No big deal, a SLL can be used as a "Rapier or a Broad Axe," depends on how it's used?? But you know Jeff has dealt with thousands of dogs and I have only dealt with a handful ... so he would know. I thought the"SLL" was fairly simple? But you know more it's "apparently" more of an "Art than a Science?? But those that still want to try it, just "PM" me. And I do what I can to explain what I do. 


And the "things I suggest and recommend are based off of my "experiance" and the trainers "I" follow and recommend are available to "JQP!" They* "show there work"* and if people are that suspect??" They can contact those trainers themselves. Those guys are on air on youtube answering ... pretty much "every" question that comes up here ...* "every week!"* I "gravitated towards Sean and Jeff because "I" apparently work like them???

People that "know me" understand how I work and if they don't ... they ask questions! My most favorable mention was on "Boxerforum" in a "PM" and he said "Thank You for being different!" People seek me out "apparently" and they are not looking for a "debate." They want "crap free advise!" "Find a Trainer"does not work for everyone?? And for those that can ... I got there backs.

So I suppose I can say sorry... I learned so much from so few dogs??? But as I also say ... there is always that guy. You can do a search on that one if you like.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Chip you will notice I said that from my experience raising puppies there definitely are puppies for whom redirection and proper management work fine.....
> 
> I also said I try keep an open mind that there are dogs and situations I have not encountered and those might require corrections mentioned in this thread.
> 
> ...


Well you have to have the ability to read a dog but that comes with "experiance!" 

By and large most dogs I've worked with are "claimed pullers" and yeah when handed over to there regular handlers were "proven to be "still" serious pullers??" But I have used a "SLL" on a few "serious "claimed pullers" and without any apparent effort ... in 4 minutes or less they, walked as well on leash as my "Struddell" (White Boxer) which is high praise indeed! Anyone could walk her on leash issue free.  

But ... it depends on the dog! When I had the opportunity to work with a "freakishly big headed "Pitty???" I was not real eager to do my "standard slight tug sideways with that dog!!" It took "me" ten minutes just to get him to move??? He sat and won't move ... I kept leash pressure on and waited, then he finally moved! But he was not dot one yet??? He reared up and resisted??? That was new for me?? But I waited ... now more than four minutes had passed so "new territory for me here??? And then after ten minutes ... he moved! And when he did ... he darted hard right across my legs ... "WTH???" I'd not seen this before??? 

Seeing that with that dog ... had I been given the opportunity ... I'd have gone with the "KMODT" and a fifteen foot leash! But the owner did not care ...10 minutes was to much time for him?? And he had two more "Pits" just like this one at home and he was good with being dragged down the street??? 

I have no disagreement with what you do?? But the point of the thread was... "I thought" for those that have not "thus" far figured it out??? If the puppy has gone beyond ... I don't know 4 months and is still "biting" the crap out of it's owner ... then it's time for those owners to "Keep it Real" for those puppies.

Most likely the window of opportunity for "effective redirect" is pretty short??? If some owners miss it ... they are in a whole new world?? Those are the owners that come here for help and telling them the same old "stuff" that they have already tried ... is not that useful??? 

And for the record ... I've not worked with a truly handler aggressive adult dog yet! But I have recently learned that there is a GSD Rescue local to me! Gonna go up there and see if I can help??? Most likely ... they don't have a lot of "volunteers" eager to take on hard cases??? So you know I'll see what I can do. 

But to be clear I have no issue with your "assessment??" All of "this" is just my typical rather long way of explaining what I said what I did.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Well thanks for the part in bold. Dog v Cat 101 ... use a freaking leash! If you have to "chase the dog to deliver a an "aversive" then you've already "screwed up!" You're not gonna "deliver an effective "consequence" if you have to chase down the dog first???
> 
> I'd have luv'd to see the "individual" that would "think they'd have a hope in HE$$ of stopping "Sally" leash free?? Now that... would be a fool!
> 
> ...



Chip, a novice owner comes on here and says his GSD is chasing the cat, wanting to kill the cat and you tell him to use the PC. Where does he read that the dog is supposed to be leashed? You didn't mention that. You didn't mention it on the Boxer Board. And why the heck should they have to go to the Boxer Board to get an answer on a GSD board? Cat vs Dog 101? Where do you explain that to the novice owner? They come on here and read what you wrote and off they go chasing after the dog who is chasing after the cat. They probably have little chance of catching the dog with the PC and hopefully in the meantime their cat has escaped to a safe place from the GSD, if not, their cat could be dead. And many GSDs are not going to stop because of a bicycle pump! Not one of mine would probably even notice it. And I doubt a pit bull would care less about a bicycle pump either. If someone listens and does exactly what you wrote, they could have a dead cat.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Deb said:


> Chip, a novice owner comes on here and says his GSD is chasing the cat, wanting to kill the cat and you tell him to use the PC. Where does he read that the dog is supposed to be leashed? You didn't mention that. You didn't mention it on the Boxer Board. And why the heck should they have to go to the Boxer Board to get an answer on a GSD board? Cat vs Dog 101? Where do you explain that to the novice owner? They come on here and read what you wrote and off they go chasing after the dog who is chasing after the cat. They probably have little chance of catching the dog with the PC and hopefully in the meantime their cat has escaped to a safe place from the GSD, if not, their cat could be dead. And many GSDs are not going to stop because of a bicycle pump! Not one of mine would probably even notice it. And I doubt a pit bull would care less about a bicycle pump either. If someone listens and does exactly what you wrote, they could have a dead cat.


One of the dangers of pet owners acting like they are trainers and giving out advice. I try to only advise people when it's something I have experienced myself, just like you do.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> Chip, a novice owner comes on here and says his GSD is chasing the cat, wanting to kill the cat and you tell him to use the PC. Where does he read that the dog is supposed to be leashed? You didn't mention that. You didn't mention it on the Boxer Board. And why the heck should they have to go to the Boxer Board to get an answer on a GSD board? Cat vs Dog 101? Where do you explain that to the novice owner? They come on here and read what you wrote and off they go chasing after the dog who is chasing after the cat. They probably have little chance of catching the dog with the PC and hopefully in the meantime their cat has escaped to a safe place from the GSD, if not, their cat could be dead. And many GSDs are not going to stop because of a bicycle pump! Not one of mine would probably even notice it. And I doubt a pit bull would care less about a bicycle pump either. If someone listens and does exactly what you wrote, they could have a dead cat.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5062642-post32.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6614082-post4.html

Off the top of my head! The rest my ... personal experiance ... how about up to five dogs, 18 cats and 15 years of first hand Cat/Dog experiance and "never in all those years" a "single Cat v Dog issue!" 

Freaking strays come over the fence and eat out of my house/out door cats bowls and my dogs don't give the strays a second glance! My dogs don't even "perceive cats on walks," I see them they do not ... Cats are not "Prey" so for dogs I "Train" they don't care about cats! 

And as regards the "BoxerBoard" for me ... I don't give a crap where information comes from if it's of value to me I use it. And lots of others have "gotten over it." And the Boxer Board and me not menting the leash ... well try again.:

Note the date and note the leash:
Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - My cats are terrified and I need advice!!!

And as for that "hard core" prey driven cat killing cat if I come across such a beast ... rest assured one of us will be going to the VET or the ER! And if that happens then yeah that particular will need to find a new home cause one of us is going to have change and it will not me be! I don't expect anyone else to be that "hard core" but I am and I strive to break that crap down to a more "workable level" for JQP. 


And again as I clearly stated here and in my numerius previous past post ...* "use a freaking leash!"*Apparently that is a much more difficult concept to grasp then I realized ... so my bad ... I'll work on it. 

So yeah that's my first hand experience and yes Cat v Dog ... "I'm" that freaking good! So you know ... everybody else "tool free and SLL or Regular Collar and Flat leash ... that can match that record ... stand up and be counted. Or you know try Victoria Stilwell, I went there on a lark to see what she said ... her advise for Cat V Dog ..."Find a Trainer!" Nuff Said.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip said: _The rest my ... personal experiance ... how about up to five dogs. "I'm" that freaking good!_ 


Forty years, too many dogs and cats to count. Thirty years a dog trainer. But I don't brag I'm that good. If you're going to tell people how to fix their problems by posting real trainer's videos and methods, please make sure you put in all the info, especially things like keeping the dog leashed to you when throwing a towel or using a bicycle pump, to stop them from killing a cat. If you only give half the method someone will have a cat killed or be seriously hurt when they try to pull the dog off the cat.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> Chip said: _The rest my ... personal experiance ... how about up to five dogs. "I'm" that freaking good!_


Well I think the above is slightly out of context ... but good enough. 



Deb said:


> Forty years, too many dogs and cats to count. Thirty years a dog trainer. But I don't brag I'm that good. If you're going to tell people how to fix their problems by posting real trainer's videos and methods, please make sure you put in all the info, especially things like keeping the dog leashed to you when throwing a towel or using a bicycle pump, to stop them from killing a cat. If you only give half the method someone will have a cat killed or be seriously hurt when they try to pull the dog off the cat.


Well at this point ... I'll not be able to beat forty years, so I'll (flatter myself) and count that as a match! Well played Madam. 

My reply to "Cloud" was not "intended" to be a complete "Cat v Dog" protocol ... as anyone that did a search for "me" would "clearly see." Advice from the "experts" is there as well as "what I do." In replying to "Cloud" .. I realized I'd missed an "opportunity" to test the "PC" myself with a hard core case. 

My reply was not intended to be a "how to" ... so I kinda took exception to "folks" making "assumptions" about what I do say. I should have handled myself better ... kinda more like this ... my bad.


----------

