# HELP ASAP BIG cat and dog problem



## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

I have two cats and of course Max who is now almost 6 months old. He has gone through obidience school. I have read all the threads here about dogs/cats using crates to train them to get used to each other....have crated cats...have crated Max...nothing works, Max is insane with the cats period.

My biggest fear is he is going to kill one of my cats. In the 4 months that we have had Max he has gotten to both cats several times. Sasha, my long hair has been unlucky enough to get the brunt of it as she is not as quick as Leo. Max has gotten her into his mouth and attempted to shake her. I have seen what a Shepherd can do to an animal by this method as my old GSD killed a huge possum in this manner in a matter of seconds.

We have our house gated so that the cats can have safe spots, but in order to get to these spots, they do have to go through the danger zone. Normally if Max is not crated the cats will jump up unto the newel post and wait for me to notice them so that I can go pick them up and bring them into the downstairs safe area. Sometimes, they don't wait and Max is on them like white on rice.

The last attack was the one that scared me the most and both my husband and I were just about done with Max because of fear for our cats. He even had me call the breeder to ask to take him back. I did call and the breeder was willing to rehome him but she made a suggestion that we try first. She suggested we use the shock collar on him. She said she has had to use it one one of her pups who was very prey driven as Max is because he was getting at chickens. 

We got off the phone. I was crying because I really do not want to get rid of Max. DH too was having second thoughts. He is a handful, there is no doubt about it, needs to be watched like a hawk at all times he is uncrated as he is also destructive, but I still love him as does my husband. We just do not want my cats to be hurt because of this.

So we put off buying the collar. Since then he has gone after both cats several times although has not actually made it to where he had either in his mouth (I started keeping his leash on him so I could catch him as was suggested). 

My cats were used to dogs as up until recently we had our other GSD and a black lab. Never had a problem with them with either cat. GSD would chase cats every once in awhile but when she got up to them she would just lay down and whimper wanting to be friends with them. So Sasha every now and then seems to forget that Max is not Lexi and will wander into the room and it starts. Leo, being Leo, is a tease and will sit on the stairs while the dog goes out of his freakin mind. All he has to do is see a cat and he goes into nutso mode. 

So today UPS shows up, DH informs me the collar he ordered came in. I am upset about it. I think it is so drastic and cruel. On the other hand, this is a drastic situation and losing my cats due to us bringing a high prey drive dog into their house freaks me out as well. I would never forgive myself if I lose a cat because of this.

Has anyone had a situation so critical that they have had to resort to this? I already told DH I want no part of it and will not participate in this at all. I will continue watching Max like a hawk and handling it the way I have. 

I know I am rambling about this. I am just so upset that it has come to this. My breeder has told me that she too believes with Max's behavior that he will end up killing a cat, that it is just a matter of time. She says she never suggests using the collar unless the situation is highly critical which she believes this one is. She was the one that first suggested the crating of the cats to me and had been trying to give me support over all these months. I do trust her and believe she knows what she is talking about. 

Finally, she did say that Max would be prime material for the state troopers who are always looking for dogs like him. She would have to keep him until he reaches a year before they take him into their program. I am just so confused. Don't want to let him go, don't want my cat's hurt...don't want Max hurt by shocking him either.

HELP! Is there any other way?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

go to lou castle's website and read his crittering protocol. 

http://loucastle.com/critter.htm

you can use his methods w/out cruelty. 

good luck!


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Can't you just separate the animals? Many people manage to do this even with dogs who are not other-dog friendly. You make certain parts of the house off-limits to Max and other parts off-limits to the cats and then you enforce that very strictly.

I personally think punishing a dog with high prey drive with shocks is a bad idea and unfair. This is another reason it's a good idea to bring a mature dog into the home who has already proven himself with other animals - rather than a pup who is an unknown quantity.

dd


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

First, let me say that I am so sorry that you are stuck in this situation. I know this must be very hard for you. Hang in there!
Unfortunately, I can't give you any advice regarding dogs w/ cats because we don't have cats. However, I can tell you that my boyfriend and I are ready to resort to the shock collar, too, but for a different reason.
My Lab, Bella, has a bad habit of running off into the woods whenever she can slip through the door of my screened-in porch. She takes off like a bullet and totally ignores our calls.
This is very dangerous as we have a two-lane paved road that runs right in front of our house that people tend to speed down on their way to the nearby neighborhood down the road. I don't want Bella running into the road and getting hit, so we are talking about using the shock collar to reinforce the idea that she needs to come when called.
Bella knows all her basic obedience (sit, down, here, stay, etc.). She knows her name. She is just ignoring us because she knows she can. Given the danger she puts herself in, my boyfriend and I feel it's time to give her a wake up call.
This does not mean we intend to be cruel to her. In fact, I'm going to have some friends come over to show me how to work the collar before we actually use it, because my big fear is using it the wrong way and just hurting the dog rather than accomplishing anything.
I too believe that the shock collar should only be used in extreme cases, but after reading your post I believe that you're there. Let me also say that one of my GSDs is a working dog and I know that, for some very driven dogs, being a pet just isn't going to satisfy them. They need a job. If you decide that Max needs a working home, there's nothing wrong with that.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do. It will get better!


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Sorry, editor2, but your dog is not "putting herself" in a dangerous situation - you are. You can fix the doors so that she can't slip out. I too live on a busy road and there are many ways to deal with that situation without resorting to electric shocks. 

It saddens me that the shock collar is now the preferred tool for people. Next we'll be using them on small children. JMO.

dd


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Jarn thanks for the link. I have read it and am sending it to DH to read before he attempts using this collar not knowing what he is doing. According to this article, that can make a real monster out of Max.

DD trust me, this is not something I want to do. We have attempted to seperate both cats and dog but it is not really possible by the set up of our house. My cats have free reign upstairs as we keep a gate on the stairway. They also have two rooms downtairs, kitchen where their food is, and den where they like to look out the window. Actually they have 3 rooms downstairs because I have a dining room with French doors (that keeps Max out) that is accessed through the kitchen for the cats. In order to get through to these spaces cats have to come into the foyer/hallway to go down hall to those two rooms. Max is only allowed in living room and foyer/hall. It is this way because Max has to be where we are (he hates being seperated from us and will whine and go bonkers if we are in a room he is not in) and we are usually in the living room. 

So Max is already extremely limited to where he can go, so much so that I actually feel bad for him. Cats are all over upstairs and have some rooms downstairs. I have even tried putting their food/water bowls upstairs to see if they would stay up there since their litter box and all bedrooms are up there...they do not stay up there. They like roaming the house. If I attempt to shut them into one room up there they scratch like heck to get out as soon as you shut the door or shortly after. Paint has been scratched off all doors that we have attempted to shut cats into.

I have even tried to shut Max into my bedroom which I will never attempt again. He tore apart my pillows, pulled down drapes and gauged the door to get out. He does not like being secluded without us period. 

I am not "preferring" to use a shock collar. Just the opposite. I want to find another solution. I just have tried every possible situation I could think of or have been advised to by my own breeder, Max's trainer and others I have read on this board. For us this is a last resort as nothing else has worked. So I basically see it this way...dead cat, give dog away, or use collar. It seems to me where I do not want to get rid of the dog I love to pieces, there is only one option left. I just have to get my mind around using this collar which I have not been able to do so far.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cindy, when I got Elvis, Cassidy was a year old, 80 pound, wild child of a dog. I had lost my previous kitty Punkin at 15 years old just a couple of months after we got Cassidy, so she hadn't been around cats much. I waited 6 months to get another one because she was just too rowdy and excitable and I couldn't trust her. Elvis was 3 months old, weighed 4 pounds, and was about the size of Cassidy's head. I was TERRIFIED that she'd hurt, or worse, kill him. 

So the first 4 months after Elvis came home he lived in the spare bedroom. I set it up as the cat room, with the food, litter box, and a cat tree. I spent about 20 minutes with him every morning before work, and every evening when I got home. I'd come out and make dinner, and go back in for another hour or two before bedtime. I hardly saw my husband during that time, but I wanted to be able to spend time with my new kitty and make sure he was safe. Sometimes Tom would take Cassidy somewhere with him, and I'd let Elvis out to explore the rest of the house. 

Usually the recommendation is to keep the dog on leash. Cassidy was severely leash reactive, and nothing was guaranteed to ramp her up out of control faster than putting her on a leash around Elvis, so that was instantly out of the question. Another technique is to put the dog in a crate and bring the cat around. Well, leash reactivity is just one of many forms of barrier frustration, and putting her in the crate caused a similar reaction - she saw Elvis, she exploded, he freaked out and ran. So much for plan B. 

The key to having them get along was to have lots and lots and lots of opportunities for the two of them to be in close proximity with Cassidy calm and Elvis able to feel safe, while they got used to seeing and smelling each other. I had daily supervised visits where I brought Cassidy into the room. Because it was a small enclosed space, there wasn't a lot of room for Elvis to run and trigger prey drive, or for her to chase him. Plus, he could hang out on the cat tree, retreating to the top if he felt threatened. 

I sat on the floor with Cassidy, put her in a down, and rewarded calm behavior. I got a special cheese filled bone that she only got in the cat room. She could lay on the floor and chew her bone, she could get up and sniff him if he ventured down the cat tree, but she had to stay calm and gentle. If she got too excited and blew me off, she was banished from the room and her bone was put away. She was very interested in the kitty, and wanted to spend time with him, so I put that totally within her control. As long as she played by my rules she could stay in the room with us. If she blew it, I told her "that's it, you're done!" and tossed her out. 

Sometimes we'd be in the room, and she was calmly chewing her bone, but Elvis wouldn't come down to visit. So I'd make her leave the room, coax him down his tree, and put him in his carrier. I'd let her back in, put her back in a down with her bone, and put Elvis on the floor right in front of her. Fortunately, Elvis was curious and interested (I don't know that I'd do this with a terrified cat), so he was fine with being in close proximity to her as long as he was safe in his crate. I fed them both treats and talked to them, petting Cassidy with slow soothing strokes as she chewed her bone. They'd sniff noses through the bars of the carrier, and I heavily rewarded such exchanges. 

After the first 4 months I started doing supervised visits in the whole house where I let him out, but only for short periods where I was able to give them my full attention. Having Cassidy on leash would have been easier, but that was impossible, so I used a citronella collar. I didn't really want to use an aversive because I wanted the sight of the kitty to always have a positive association, but the citronella would interrupt her long enough for me to get her back in control. If she charged him, I'd press the remote, and then she'd stop and sniff the floor to see where that smell was coming from, and I could mark and reward her for stopping the charge. 

I'd also taught her the "find it" command from an early age, which meant that there were treats on the floor. I started doing tons of find it work with her, initially tossing a handful of tiny treats AT her, a technique recommended in the Difficult Dog class that we took for her reactivity. A dog totally focused on a sight or smell will have their hearing virtually turned off, so simply giving a command won't always work. The tactile sense of the food hitting her would get her attention, and she'd break off the cat and start sniffing around for the food. Sometimes I'd do a rapid fire of treats, one after the other, bouncing them off her back. Eventually, it got to the point where both Cassidy AND Elvis were on the floor together scarfing down treats together, lol! I knew at that point we were getting there. 

I also worked on focus exercises, doing "watch" with her sitting on the floor in front of me while I was on the couch. I started by marking and rewarding a single second of eye contact and worked up to where she had to watch me for at least 5 seconds for the reward. I had my treat bag in my lap, and the ultimate challenge was for her to hold eye contact while Elvis was trying to dive headfirst into the treat bag.









Even after a year, she was still very excited by the cats, (I got Emmy 9 months later), but I was fairly confident that she wouldn't hurt them, even unintentionally, so I stopped watching them every second, although I NEVER left them alone when we weren't home. They learned to read her very well, and knew when to give her a wide berth and when they could approach and groom her, and how to turn off her prey drive by jumping up onto a table or the couch - at eye level they were equals. The cats even started intiating play with her.

I only have a couple of pictures of her with the cats, here's one of Elvis giving her some love:










And the three of them together:










The cats also liked to commandeer her bed:










When she found them in there, defiantly holding court, she'd just wait for them to get out, lol!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i know what you're going through....teagan has HUGE prey drive, i knew i was taking a risk adopting an untested adult from a shelter. 

right now i separate the small animals from teagan. when teagan is crated at night they are allowed out from their rooms. 

i have an e-collar, and have spoken to lou - he was great - the one thing that makes me nervous is that teagan, from the moment i've adopted her, gives very little warning before attacks. i can read her body language better now, part of it is also just knowing her style of how/when she'll go. i don't know her history, but i think her lack of obvious warning either comes from being inappropriately corrected, or that she's a smarty who figured out warnings don't equal success. but i'm not confident enough that i won't correct the wrong thing. what i've decided to do is use it to proof commands she already knows, and keep things fun, before moving into crittering protocols. i use it on myself for physio regularly (why pay to get stim when i've got that at home), but i need to incorporate it more into training w/teagan. i have a trainer who is willing to come work w/me when i first start using it, and i like him overall, but he doesn't follow lou's protocol, more the leerburg way, and i want to use lou's way, i just need to stop being such a wimp about it


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I have a suggestion. Does Max know the leave it command? It'd probably helpful.


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

CassidysMom, I just read your post twice and I appreciate the time it took you to give me your detailed technique. The pics of all your babies together is tugging on my heart strings because I want more then anything for our babies to get to that point. I have had dogs and cats that close before and miss all that harmony...

With this set of animals there are a couple of issues above and beyond the dog wanting to chase and eat them. My cats are part of the problem because of how they are. Leo hates all other animals only likes people...Sasha likes other animals, just not Max and does not like people (even us lol). She was a rscue and from day one did not want to be bothered by people only when she was to be fed. She is not the type of cat that you can just go scoop up without her going all nutty and trying to scratch you. In other words, she is not friendly to people. She did this from day one and I probably should have brought her back but I was afraid if I did and she ended up in the wrong hands, she might either be put to sleep (if again returned to the rescue) or worse, getting someone who might actually hurt her due to her anti-social behavior, so we kept her. I love her b*tchy little self, but I have learned to stay away from her unless she comes to me which is not often. She bonded the most with DH but even attacks him often.

So we have a jealous cat (Leo) and a anti-social cat, so these are probably the worst two to try to work with Max on. Both cats run away from him, although Leo takes personal pleasure in standing on the other side of the gate, French Door etc and hissing at Max ensuring he will go out of his mind.

Leo hates to be confined and when you put him in the carrier he panics with or without Max around. Most of the work we did with the crate we did with Sasha as she will be crated, and in the big picture, because of the two, she would be the one to come around to Max sooner, if at all. Still it did not go well but that was Max. He can not see a cat and not lose it. They do not have to move at all. Just seeing their face and he is off the deep end, hackles up, ducked down ready to pounce. He is far from perfectly behaved without the cats, he picks and chooses when he will listen to any command. We still work every day with him, but he is not consistent. So introduce a cat into the pic and forget us. He is not hearing anything, he is all tuned out except to the cat. 

We did the crate thing, starting off on far ends of the room and allowing them to "be in the same room together" . After a couple of weeks of just doing this, we could still never get Max to totally settle if the cat was in the room. Our trainer also suggested the bouncing the treats off of him. He had no interest in them as long as the cat was within his sight. He was fixated on her. He would settle for a couple minutes as long as one of us was stroking his chest and relaxing him, but would soon get all stimulated over again and attempt to "sneak" away from us...we had him leashed and he would hope to find us relaxed enough where he could give one good pull to get the leash away from us. He managed it once so I triple wrapped his leash on all following exercises. 

After about 2 months we got to a point where we were able to have the cat and dog about 6 feet from each other. That is where the progress stopped. Cat loses it and starts hissing, Max goes wild and just about breaks are arms off to get to her. He hears NOTHING just focusing on getting the cat. The last session was such a disaster that we stopped attempting this because now I have to put a towel around Sasha to try to crate her because she refuses to be crated. What happened was I had her crated, DD did not realize what I was doing and let Max out of his crate. It happened so fast that Max got by me, got a hold of the crate, picked it up by the handle and tossed the freakin thing with Sasha in it. Obviously she went nuts and was crying and hissing which sent Max into a new level of insanity. He was growling and crazed and attempting to bite through the cage as Sasha was sticking her paws out to try to defend herself. By the time I was able to drag him off the cage, he had again dumped it which forced the lock to open and the door to fall off and Sasha came tumbling out. 

Needless to say it was frightening for all of us. If I now attempt to crate Sasha she turns into the Exorcist and scratches and bites etc. I have had to throw a towel around her while wearing kitchen mitts to crate her to bring her to the vet and she still got me. Once inside the crate she was wild. She will no longer sit in in calmly as she used to. 

I have never had a dog before that the mere sight of a cat sent him into such a frenzy where the outside world is totally shut out. Max is very treat orientated so with every other training we can usually get his attention away from something long enough for him to calm down and listen, but not with the cats. It is soooooooooooo frustrating, stressful, etc. Just the cat coming down the stairs if Max is crated sends him on this whirlwind that it takes several minutes for him to calm down even though the cat is no longer in his sight. I am just at wit's end. 

Now ONE time my DH was able to bring Max on leash into the kitchen with Leo sitting loose on the baker's rack. Max pulled his usual thing, barking, growling, attempting to leap at the cat, but DH kept him on a short leash and after about 15 minutes he stopped barking (THAT was fun) and sat down...he continued to growl the remainder of the time there (about another 15 minutes). Finally Leo decided he was done, jumped off the bakers rack walked right up to Max and did his "boxing" thing in Max's face attempting to scratch him, which he did. I need not tell you what happened from there...let's just say dishes came off bakers rack, broken glass, shouting, hissing and two people trying to calm down a dog that was so agitated, that I had to grab the cat, run upstairs with him while DH crated the dog and covered the crate to allow him to calm down. He was in there barking for more then 10 minutes before we ended up having to go outside to get away from it because we were now stressed to the max as well.

Our house has turned into the looney bin and we are all stressed because of it.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

E-collars are not cruel when used correctly. They can also help correct alot of problems.


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

GSDOwner, yes, Max knows the leave it command but as I mentioned, he stops hearing as soon as he sees a cat. It is as if we no longer exist once a cat enters the picture. I have had to literally take my Sasha out of his mouth and he did break skin and I mean I was ON Max before he even got to the cat. He yanked me so hard that he was able to get the cat into his mouth. I actually put my own hand in his mouth, depressed on his lower jaw to get him to release the cat. I have no doubt that had I not done that Sasha would be dead. 

My breeder told me that of all the years she has been breeding she only had one other dog that had the prey drive that Max has and that is the one she has to use the collar on. She said he was so determined to kill chickens that she had to do it several times before he would stop going after them, and then only by increasing the amount of shock the dog recieved. She said he was relentless. Something tells me this is how Max will be as well







This whole things just makes me cry.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Egads, you've got your work cut out for you!







I agree, the attitude of the cat(s) involved has a LOT to do with how much work it will take and how successful it will be. Since I got mine as kittens they were obviously apprehensive of this large rambunctious thing they'd never seen before, but they are pretty easy going in general, MCs are known for being dog-friendly as a breed, and they'd had no previous bad experiences with a dog to taint their expectations. So all that was a plus, but even so, it took a lot of work, time and patience to get there. I see pictures all the time on the forum where people have cats and dogs that get along great practically from minute one, and I've never been so lucky. In the 22 years I've had cats and GSDs I've NEVER not had to work at it. 

I'd be concerned with Max's reaction too, it sounds pretty over the top. Why did she sell you Max if she knew how bad his prey drive was and that you had cats?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Cindy, Max sounds exactly like Teagan in his reactions. I know it's hard, and frustrating :hugs:


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

CassidysMom, before we went to look at Max I told the breeder that I had cats and had to have a pup that would be able to live side by side with them. She assured me that although her dogs were working line, she has had cats with her dogs before and even sent me pics of her dogs with them. When I went to look at Max she had a ton of pics in her den of many of her animals and several had cats laying right in their legs and sleeping. She did not have cats at that time though. What impressed me is she had a pic of one of her boys that she still had...an enormous boy (140 lbs) with a litter of kittens running all on top of him. The dog just was laying there letting the kittens go to town. That made me feel safe because most of her dogs are big.

There were 3 boys available and one LH female from another litter. I wanted a female as I have never owned a male dog before. The female was 2 months older and she told me that she had a hard time placing her because no one wanted a LH...Oh to be back in that situation again especially having seen your LH's! DD wanted the female, DH and I wanted the regular. I thought if I got the LH I would be spending my life sweeping hair up because you do enough of that with a regular coated shep. The sad part is the girl took right too me and was over kissing me and attempting to give me her paw! Gentle, not mouthy at all. I could kick myself now!!!

Anyway, I have to admit that the breeder DID suggest the female coated for me. She was 4 months and she had been working with her already so the dog already knew most of her commands and was just a kissy thing. Several times the breeder said I think she has picked you...do I listen???? NOOOOOOOOOO

My first shep was working lines and although she was a bit harder for me or should I say required much more attention and exercise then my last shep, I thought we were capable of handling Max. He was my 3rd shep and we have also owned other breeds and trained them as well...

I fell in love with Max before I ever went there. She had pics of the 3 boys and he just was the cutest thing so I went there with him in mind already. I knew he was mouthy, but all of them were. He was the middle dog, the biggest one was more then 5 lbs bigger then Max and had a real attitude. Def ALPHA which is not what we wanted. The littlest was a baby, whined, and whined and had to be with the breeder, being held. This was due to being so small at birth that she had to give him special attention. She did not think the pup was going to make it. So then there was Max. He took to me right away and of the three boys, he was on me and very curious about me and was also a kissy faced guy and that just did me in...

When I called and asked if she still had Quessa, of course she was gone...I was actually going to go back and get her as well as Max and that was after seeing your pics of your dogs! DH said well probably a good thing because having two pups at the same time might lead to craziness around here HA! Quessa was already pretty much trained and just needed a little finishing off.

So in breeders defense, she did try to direct me to another dog and pointed out to me that Quessa had just about NO prey drive and was good with other animals (we had a lab at the time as well). I did notice the mouthiness of Max but as I said, the others had it too. I saw Max's mom, dad and grandfather (the big ole guy with the kitties all over him) and felt pretty confident we were all set. Maxi's mom Foxi was a huge gentle girl....Xabu his dad, huge very alert dog. Now thinking back at the visits we had there, Xabu took longer to settle then all the dogs there







Xabu had been promised to the state trooper program but the breeder decided to keep him for her breeding program and gave them another dog. She has told me that he has sired many litters an this particular breeding of Foxy and Xabu has been a high demand breeding. They are planning a repeat breeding this year and already she has a waiting list for these particular pups by some people who already have pups from this breeding or missed out on the last because she only had 3 from last litter. 

So now I am feeling incompetent







DH and I are far from dog trainers but up until now have always owned well behaved dogs that we have personally trained. I knew it was going to be different with Max from day one. I wrote it off initially thinking he was the first male I ever owned. It is more then him being male though...


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

how is your dogs other training going? do you do NILIF? 

LandosMom


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Also, I am not the type of person who takes an animal then decides oh he isn't working and gets rid of it. I have had animals all my life and no matter how nasty behaved (Sasha) I have never given any of my animals away. They have all left due to old age or unfortunate illness or accident. Being in this position tears me apart.

I keep thinking perhaps Max should be a working dog with a real job. Knowing him the way I do he would probably be very happy at that type of life. I wonder if I am doing him a disservice by trying to make a pet out of him when maybe that is not really who he is.

Then again, I am attached to him, so aren't other family members. He is very attached to us, he sits/sleeps on the couch next to me every night while I watch TV or read with his head on my lap. Talk about a velcro dog! He is at the point now where he is FINALLY checking in all the time except when he is trying to kill my cats. He loves sitting and watching me garden and loves fetching his ball or cuz...If we are sitting he will grab his cuz and put it right into our lap...I can not imagine not having him anymore. He has filled the huge gap we had after losing our other GSD and more recently, our lab. We are all very attached to him.


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

LandosMOM, yes we do NILIF. 

Gerry is Maxi's grandfather on his mother's side, he is Foxi's father. I did see pics of Gerry but did not see him. Foxi was from Gerry out of Lil...

So you know Kathy! I really like her and her dogs are awesome. I have never been to a breeder where so many dogs were actually HOUSE dogs. She had at least 8 dogs in the house not including puppies when we went to see Max the first time. We totally fell in love with Gildo. My DH still wants him







Kathy has been very helpful through all of this. I think she is a quality breeder and her dogs are awesome.

Do you have one of her pups? Our trainer has Maxi's half brother from Gildo out of Foxi. GORGEOUS boy who is a therapy dog and ENORMOUS!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I know that the cats have interacted with the dog before, but I think this article may have some helpful tips for you.

http://www.petco.com/Content/Article.asp...fromnewpet=true


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

GSDOwner, thanks for the link. I have read it before soon after I brought Max home and understood he thought the cats were propelled really fun squeak toys and realized we had a problem.

Rereading it I did forget one thing and that was the scent of the cat on a towel. We did it once and then forgot about it. I think I will begin doing this again so at least the dog learns to be in his crate with the scent of the cat without going bonkers...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, I did that too - I rubbed a towel on each of them and then on the other so that they'd be 'wearing' each other's scents, lol!


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

I guess at this point I am just wondering if Max was your dog, having done all that we have tried to do to attempt to assimilate him with the cats, do you think the collar is my only option left? That is where I feel we are and I hate it. 

Have any of you used the collar and was it successful for you? If people have not had success I do not want to put Max through this. I would actually rather give him back to the breeder then torture him (may be melodramatic lingo but that is how I view this collar) and have it not even be effective.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

Cindy-

I don't think that you will be torturing him. Find someone who knows how to use the collar properly. 

Since you asked, if I were you, I would step up his obedience and NILIF and be very strict/militant but fair for a while and see if that makes anything better. no couch. then see how things stand with the cats. i would try and correct him (on leash) before he fixates on the cat.

Keep in mind you have no way of knowing what type of home he will go into when being re-homed. Who's to say that they won't find the behavior unacceptable and use the e collar?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Same issue at my house... Did our dog get the same possum? 

Anyhow, I use the http://www.invisiblefence.com/product_solutions/products/index.asp#
and plan on training to e-collar as well.

The units referenced above are great and allow me to 'fence' the dogs out of rooms that are then 'cat safe.'

I've not only had a possum presented to me, I've had a GSD dock a cat's tail - years ago.

The big problem is that you can't train cats not to act like prey. The dog that docked a cat's tail was the same dog another cat could hold at bay with a look.. go figure.

good luck.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

When you train him, if he has a high drive, have you tried walking him before the training? Since he's tired he may not have as much inclination to run at the cats. Just a thought.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wow, this sounds like a very scary situation. This does not sound like prey drive as much as aggression. Chama has extremely high prey drive (just ask her squirrel and bunny victims and all the mukrat and deer she has chased) but has never, ever chased a cat in a house. And when she does go after prey it is not in the way you describe. 

I brought in a dog this past fall that I intended to adopt but ended up fostering because he was cat aggressive. He went absolutely nuts when he saw Cleo--hackles up, barking, everything that you describe. There was no way I was going to let them be anywhere near one another (Cleo is 15) so I_ kept them completely separate unless he was wearing a leash and the leash was in my hand._ He lived upstairs and Cleo lived downstairs and I spent equal amounts of time with them both. 

I would not have Max off leash at all if your cats are out and about. It is too dangerous for your cats. Training him to a basket muzzle is also a good idea because then you don't have to worry about him grabbing them if he's wearing the muzzle. All it takes is one good shake and your cat will be dead, please do not take any chances. I think you can counter condition but it will be a very long process considering how reactive, fast and powerful he is. 

Do you clicker train? I would start that now and reward like crazy any time the cats are within sight and he is calm. I would assign a word to the cats (I use kitty) and say it, direct his attention to them (ideally very far away at first and then gradually closer but not close!) and reward when he looks but does not react. Again, this is a very slow process but does work. 

As someone else suggested, I would also be sure he is getting the appropriate outlets for his energy (2-4 hours of exercise a day) and that he is in training classes too. 

You have a long road ahead of you--good luck and please, keep those cats safe!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowWow, this sounds like a very scary situation. This does not sound like prey drive as much as aggression. Chama has extremely high prey drive (just ask her squirrel and bunny victims and all the mukrat and deer she has chased) but has never, ever chased a cat in a house. And when she does go after prey it is not in the way you describe.


Good point. Keefer has wicked prey drive, and he WILL chase the cats in the house, but I never worry that he will hurt them, he just thinks it's fun.







Hey, if they run.......









D & K are not nearly as good with the cats as Cassidy was, and that's because they were introduced to the cats (who by then were used to living with a dog) as puppies. I was never worried about the safety of my cats around them, so I didn't work with them as much as I did with Cassidy, who I KNEW was a danger to the cats. Pure laziness on my part. 

I agree that this will be a long involved process.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i don't know if this helps with respect to dogs like chama or keefer vs. max....i just realized teagan doesn't hackle, so she's not quite like max, and as always, she is silent until she realizes she has been thwarted from her goal.

i had a professional come in to help me w/her, and he agreed she has very strong prey drive. but what he said - and maybe this is where the difference is w/dogs like max or teagan (and it's all the small animals w/her), is that she wants to kill. he said a lot of dogs with high prey drive want to play with, and dominate, their prey. teagan goes straight for the 'kill'. 

maybe max is similar? a prey drive more focused to killing than playing?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes-there is a name for that. I asked in another thread a while ago and they called it...something. But it's not really the same as prey drive? Maybe prey aggression? Who answered that question...chruby, castlemaid, someone did! Darn it! 

Because it is the intent-I want to chase a cat because it moves is different than I want to chase a cat to catch it. And then the...scary part. 

It is also I bet related to pack vs. prey drive. A dog with high pack drive may be able to let go of something before a dog with low pack and high prey. 

http://www.leerburg.com/dog-cat.htm has a no nonsense approach. 

When you have teachable dogs (and my cat tells me which are and which would eat her) you can do a lot of positives and shaping of behavior and make it fun to be nice to kitty. I hope you can work it out for all involved, whatever that may be.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i just googled and found this:
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/predatory-aggression/page1.aspx

not the most positive on prognosis....but i do agree, it's not a matter of the dog being bad at all.

i found another site that said prey aggression can be fixed with a couple of well-timed corrections....reaaalllly....teagan hasn't gotten that memo









i wonder if dogs who have been sucessful in a predatory situation would be more like to be be prey aggressive. but that's getting off of max, sorry maxismom!


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Well one thing that we have changed as of late...our trainer suggested that to walk Max we take him out of the area to walk him because he was already very good with his boundaries. He did not go out of the yard, just one time. When we first got him I made a habit of walking him around the perimeter of most of our property, leaving off much of the back wooded area as I do not want him to ever feel he has free reign to roam the woods. Where we live our back woods goes on for miles so if he ever got loose out there, well, unless he came when called, we would never find him. So I pretty much set his boundries right off the bat. 

Since he did so well with this the trainer felt we should take him out of the area to walk. We were doing that but since we are way out, in order to get someplace to really walk him takes a while to get to. Because we have been busy working on yard etc, he was not getting those long walks like he was and we did notice right away how he had too much pent up energy as a result. So we have begun walking him in our area again to tire him out. He also does much better with his training when he is not all full of piss and vinegar...

As far as other aggressions, he does not show any at all. He loves people and will sit right away so that people can come up to pet him. He is great with other dogs no matter how big or small. He is even good with my son's small chug who runs like the wind which seems strange to me since he wants to eat the cats when they do the same thing. There is no food aggression, toy aggression...nothing. Other then the cat issue the only issues we have to really focus on is a more consistent recall, him wanting to rough house play a bit which we do not allow because until he is trained, we don't want anyone getting him all hepped up or allowing him to feel at any point that he is leader of the pack, and of course not wanting anyone to get hurt...Every once in awhile he will get mouthy (he was real mouthy in earlier months) but is pretty good at stopping if we say leave it. If he doesn't we ignore him and or put him in his crate for a few minutes and let him out to try it all over again. He usually comes out very humbled and willing to play more gently. That stuff though is pretty much his age and puppy stuff. Who hasn't been clipped by one of those razor teeth from their pups ya know.

For awhile I was clicker training because the trainer suggested it when he seemed to not be listening to me or checking in when he was supposed to be. I stopped doing it which was probably not a good idea because he was coming along nicely with it







I stopped because I lost the clicker DUH and have yet to replace it! 

Max is definately the type of dog that needs to be handled consistently. Some dogs you can slip every once and awhile and no biggie, with Max though it has to be constant, so stopping the clicker, especially when he was doing so well with it, was probably a big mistake on my part. DH, DD and I are usually diligent about keeping on the same page with our commands and the way we are training him also. He tends to get a little wilder with my DD because she runs and hops all over the place acting like prey...

I have not used the clicker when it came to the cats. The reason why is I really need both my hands available to be able to handle him when the cats are around. He only weighs about 58# but he is already the strongest dog I have ever owned. My DH has a hard time keeping him still if Max wishes to go elsewhere. When he yanks we stop right on the spot until he settles down and checks in...but there are times he has had my DH looking like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. That is why we have been consistent on keeping on his training because we are both aware of we can not handle him at 58# at 5 months, we will have no control of him when he is older and topping out his weight. 

I too have started keeping his leash on him when he is loose in the house. He has already eaten through 4 of them...the one we now have is metal and I hate it, but he does not knaw through it. 

Max is never left loose in the house unless either DH or I are also in the room with him. We do not even allow DD to watch him alone knowing that if a cat comes down the stairs there is no way she could control him and save the cat. 

So all in all, he is a good dog and is certainly trainable and with more time working with him on certain areas I have no doubt that he will come around to be a well behaved dog. The cat issue though I really do not see that getting better doing only what we have already tried. I will attempt the clicker with him and see if it does any good. I have BEGGED DH to not put the color on him and let me try to keep working with Max. He really does not want to use it either but does want the insanity to stop.

He did agree that IF it comes to using the collar he would follow the method that was described in the first link on this thread. After reading through it and seeing the structure of it all, I think if it is going to work, that would be the best method for success. 

My sister's friend in TX called me tonight to talk about this because she used to breed and show shepherds and has used the collar. She was attempting to reassure me that it does work, if done right it is very effective with minimal discomfort for the dog. I know she still has her own personal dogs and horses etc and is excellent with them. I always considered her to be as big an animal lover as I am so it surprised me when she called to tell me she has used the collar at all. 

Anyway, I really appreciate all the suggestions from everyone. You have managed to bring up a couple of things that I will try first before throwing my hands up and letting DH try that collar. I just need to feel I have done absolutely everything else possible. I never used corporal punishment raising my kids as I do not believe it works and is cruel...I feel the same about my animals. This just has me so flustered because I have never owned a dog, nor knew anyone with a dog who could not allow it near their cats. I knew they existed, just never met one. I feel bad having to go "visit" my cats upstairs because even if Max is crated they don't want to be within eyeshot of him. Leo is not liking it especially because his favorite thing was laying on my lap and napping. I feel bad for the cats the most because this was their domain for years and although they never loved my other dogs, they managed to ignore them, come and go as they chose and do their own thing. They are not very happy having their lives so disrupted NOR being run down and cornered by Max.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i've had the same sort of problem - working w/teagan around the small animals has been limited for me b/c of the danger to them and my need to be fully ready to step in.

sorry, maybe i missed it - have you muzzled him? i have never allowed teagan off-lead when the small animals are out, but in our old space there was not as much room and sometimes i'd tether her right to me using a traffic lead and muzzle her if the cats were not away (though only esme was stupid enough to come close). i found, just as teagan will not vocalize when aggressive (any form of aggression, not just prey) unless she knows she's been thwarted, she was markedly less aggressive while muzzled (and tethered still of course). given her intelligence, i've no doubt she knew her effectiveness was limited. the muzzle could be a helpful tool for max. (and if you've already discussed, my apologies)


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Actually we have never muzzled Max. He had a mask thingy used on him during one of the earlier classes so he did not really see the other dogs, not because he wanted to fight with them, rather he wanted to play lol...

Ya know I thought about a muzzle awhile back and then forgot all about it. It is definately worth a try. At least he could NOT hurt the cats even if he wanted to. I am definately getting him a muzzle. I think that is a good idea.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Quote:Because it is the intent-I want to chase a cat because it moves is different than I want to chase a cat to catch it. And then the...scary part.
> 
> It is also I bet related to pack vs. prey drive. A dog with high pack drive may be able to let go of something before a dog with low pack and high prey.


Yeah, I would characterize my dogs as the first rather than the second. They have caught Elvis out and about at floor level, and if he just stands there they don't know what to do with him. But they loooove to chase him if he runs! Keefer is the same way with little dogs at the park. If they stand there he'll go up and sniff them and lick their muzzles, but if they're running around, he'll chase them. I can call him off though, and he never tries to hurt them, he's just got a thing for small, fast moving furry critters. He sees that speedy movement and his head whips around.

According to the Volhard Canine Personality Test Keefer has extremely high pack drive to go along with his extremely high prey drive, which makes him very trainable. Well that, and his ridiculous FOOD drive, lol! 

Cindy, you can put a clicker on a lanyard around your neck, or on a wrist coil, or even get a clicker with a finger loop. I usually either have mine attached to my treat bag, or on the wrist coil. That way it's near my hand, but I don't have to worry about actually holding onto it, and can still use both hands to control the dog if necessary.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

just one thought - i wouldn't assume max could NOT hurt the cats wearing a muzzle - size/weight difference, he may still go after them. teagan was certainly still focused on the small animals, but also somewhat resigned to being muzzled and tethered - i wouldn't have trusted her just muzzled. but, you know max better and how strong this is with him, so i guess it depends on that.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

Prey drive is not a problem. Prey drive is wonderful when directed at frisbees, balls, tugs, sticks, etc.. The problem is inappropriate prey-drive. Prey is anything that runs and doesn't fight back (ie. delivers a negative consequence). So a dog will learn to respect a running dog, and most dogs learn to respect cats boundaries, but if your dog is fearless, the cats are prey. So it's your turn to step in. Which you are doing. I'll just second the Leerburg cat-dog article as good advice, or go with e-collar advice for crittering with Lou Castle. Do continue all the clicker & positive reinforcement training in any possible way, but when it comes to the cats, place their needs and safety first. If your dog has pack drive, your attitude counts too. Put your cats #1 on the heirarchy. If your dog behaved this way towards a child, what would you do? Let the dog know your cats are your puppies and are not to be harmed or looked at like they are food. Be firm and 100% consistent, whatever course you choose. If you choose Purely positive training you must absolutely ensure you NEVER give the dog the opportunity to practice the prey-drive in the first place. If you are using a balanced approach, you need to ensure the dog NEVER has a pleasurable experience of prey-drive. Make prey-drive to the cats NOT FUN and ignoring the cats a BIG PARTY. 
How you do this, is your decision based on your training philosophy. For the records, I basically used the Leerburg approach with a pinch collar.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

If you do use the collar, please find a trainer to help you. Its not as simple as just pushing the button and you can make the situation worse than it is.

The collar is not a cruel tool in the right hands. I have used it to train all 4 of my dogs.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

I think that Ingrid makes a good point here. Blaming prey drive seems to me to be a cop out. If you are pack leader *you* decide what is acceptable whether he has high prey drive or not.

As a pack leader you need to step it up. Real strict NILIF. Max is at the bottom of the totem pole. The cats are yours and he is to not touch them or there are consequences 100% of the time. E collar? maybe. have you tried the prong to correct? As a pack leader you should not let the cats tease him either.

It is really clear that you love Max. Look really carefully at whether you are being a strong, fair pack leader to your whole pack all the time because that is what he needs more than anything. I would do this now because I believe that there is an unwanted aggression component here and not just prey drive.

LandosMom



> Originally Posted By: kaslkaosPrey drive is not a problem. Prey drive is wonderful when directed at frisbees, balls, tugs, sticks, etc.. The problem is inappropriate prey-drive. Prey is anything that runs and doesn't fight back (ie. delivers a negative consequence). So a dog will learn to respect a running dog, and most dogs learn to respect cats boundaries, but if your dog is fearless, the cats are prey. So it's your turn to step in. Which you are doing. I'll just second the Leerburg cat-dog article as good advice, or go with e-collar advice for crittering with Lou Castle. Do continue all the clicker & positive reinforcement training in any possible way, but when it comes to the cats, place their needs and safety first. If your dog has pack drive, your attitude counts too. Put your cats #1 on the heirarchy. If your dog behaved this way towards a child, what would you do? Let the dog know your cats are your puppies and are not to be harmed or looked at like they are food. Be firm and 100% consistent, whatever course you choose. If you choose Purely positive training you must absolutely ensure you NEVER give the dog the opportunity to practice the prey-drive in the first place. If you are using a balanced approach, you need to ensure the dog NEVER has a pleasurable experience of prey-drive. Make prey-drive to the cats NOT FUN and ignoring the cats a BIG PARTY.
> How you do this, is your decision based on your training philosophy. For the records, I basically used the Leerburg approach with a pinch collar.


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

First off Jean, i somehow missed your post last night. Thanks, I have bookmarked the site you posted. I read a bit of it and now have a question...

How do I know if my dog has low pack drive? I ask this because from the beginning I felt a bit of a disconnection with him even though he is glued to my side or another family members most of the time. 

See Max came into our home shortly after we lost our GSD Lexi who was a sweetheart. With Lexi there was no doubt she was a solid pack member. She could not be distracted or "lured" away from us unless we gave her the okay...if there ever was a dog that that looked to me for validation, it was her.

With Max, even though he is always wanting to be with us, I just don't feel that he is connecting as well as he should be. I sense a thread of independence in him that I have yet to be able to overcome. He was very stubborn to learn "check in" and still is not 100% with it but much, much better then he was. I continue to work on this with him every single day because if I miss a day, it is almost like starting from day one the following day. 

Also, the other thing that I don't like is if he exhibits a behavior or does something that is unacceptable, we have made it a habit of giving him a "time out" in his crate. It is only between 5-10 mins that we keep him in there, but the point is, you mess up, you don't get a second chance, attempting to enforce that he can not just do what he wants. He is good with me, I take a hold of his color and he will walk with me to his crate, get in, and I shut the door, ignore him for a few minutes, then let him back out. Not always, but more often then not, he is humbled and will behave after being let out. 

Now when my husband does this, sometimes he will struggle with him. Max is pretty strong so it becomes a wrestling match. He is still a pup so sometimes he will attempt to nip my husband. He doesn't actually bite down hard, but he will nip. This pees off my DH so much that the struggle is REALLY on as DH is attempting to correct him on the nipping as well as get him crated. DH will usually at that point wrestle Max down on his side, hold him down a few seconds while telling him NO firmly. He will settle but when DH attempts to take him to his crate again, Max starts wrestling him again, as if they were playing. Is he not getting the point or is he actually attempting to fight back?

Another thing, he loves people. ALL people. When they leave, he whines for a few seconds. I get the sense that he would willingly go away with anyone, that the connection he has with us "could be replaced" by someone else easily







I may be wrong about that but the thought has crossed my mind. Our UPS man has fallen in love with Max and makes it a point to stop in to bring him a treat and pet him every time he makes a delivery here. Max gets so excited, tail wagging, when he hears the truck pull in, runs to the gate to wait for the UPS guy to come to the door. He will remain sitting and wait for the UPS to come to him, pet him, and get his treat. After he leaves, Max runs to the window and whines as the truck pulls out, and he watches him drive away. Not sure if it is Mr UPS he is missing or the treat though lol...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a link to the Volhard test: http://landofpuregold.com/personality.htm

Keefer scored 90 out of a possible 100 on prey drive, and 80 on pack drive.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I just tried that. Teagan was:

Prey: 90
Pack: 60
Fight: 75
Flight: 15


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yikes, 75 on the fight drive along with a high prey and moderate pack drives!









Keef was 40 on the fight and 10 on the flight drive.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dena's scores were 65 on both prey and pack, 35 on fight, and 10 on flight.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomYikes, 75 on the fight drive along with a high prey and moderate pack drives!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Adopting her was a bit like having a bomb explode in the house...."WTH just happened??!!" I admit, I went through a period of not being scared, but perhaps....wary? of her, but I realized we couldn't live like that. I had someone come into help us, and it sounds dumb, but I did a lot of visualization. As I started to step up....not that it was smooth, but I gained more confidence, and we've got a pretty good relationship now. 

It's funny though, I always thought she'd have strong pack drive, not moderate. She seems pretty rank driven to me - I don't see her as a true alpha dog, but I've always like Patricia McConnell's description of a 'testy, status-seeking dog'. 

She got 15 on flight b/c she got 10 points for not standing still while being groomed (of course, she keeps flopping over onto her back and showing me her belly, but hey....I'm keeping her at 15!

But I'm going off-topic again


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did you read the explanation at the bottom?
*
For most of what you want your dog to do, he needs to be in pack drive, such as:

come
walk on a loose leash
sit
down
stay

For most of what your dog wants to do, he is going to be in prey drive, such as:

chase the cat
follow the trail of a rabbit
retrieve a ball or stick
sniffing the grass
digging

You can readily see that those times when you want him to behave you have to convince your dog to forget about being in prey drive. Most often it is prey drive that gets dogs into trouble. The dog with high pack and low prey drive rarely even needs training. Such a dog doesn’t:

chase bicycles, cars, children or joggers
cats or other animals
roam from home
steal food
chew your possessions
doesn’t pull on the leash

In other words, he is a perfect pet. *

So the higher the pack drive, the more likely they are to behave well without a lot of training, vs a dog who is more likely to blow you off and follow his/her own agenda. A dog who is very high in prey drive and very low in pack drive would NOT be easy! Keefer's pack drive is _almost_ as high as his prey drive, so although they are both strong, he wants to do his own thing only slightly more than his desire to go along with the pack leader (me!).


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

darnit! i just added everything up, i didn't go down any further. oops! 

well, for the first month i had teagan, she refused to follow any command. i thought, how could a 5 year old dog not know sit? wow! and then one day, i told her sit, she stopped, looked at me, even cocked her head a bit, and sat. and from that day forth....like i said, we definitely have our moments, but it was sort of a watershed in training her, a 'okay, you can tell me what to do' moment.


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## cgarrity (Apr 22, 2008)

I have a 4-year-old domestic shorthair cat that my 8 month GSD pup would love to maul. The other dogs all get along with the cat. I've managed to keep them apart. I put the cat in another room when the GSD comes in the house so that the cat is not traumatized. The GSD has been a little better when he sees the cat, but I definitely don't trust him with the cat. It took my Weimaraner about 1 year to get used to the cat when the cat was a kitten 4 years ago and the Weim was an adult dog. Eventually the Weim accepted the cat. I always kept them separated and one day when the cat was outside I came home from work and the cat and the Weim were in my pool area peacefully co-existing. The cat actually went in the Weim's territory on its own and they worked it out. It took a long time. 

I would recommend keeping them separated. They may never be friends but if the cats are out of sight when the dog comes in the house then that may solve your problem for the time being.


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Cassidy'sMom thanks for the link to the test...

These were Max's scores

Prey 90

Pack 65

Flight 45

totl Flt 35

Now I have to ask what is the difference between flight and total flight?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

In the order of the test the drives are:

Prey
Pack
F*i*ght (engage)
F*li*ght (run away)

Totals are just the totals of each column.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm really sorry to hear you're having such a problem between Max and your cats. I can imagine how unsettling the situation is and how upset it makes you.

I second those who encouraged you to increase the amount of NILIF you use. I would do it to the point of not even allowing him to eat from a bowl - he has to work for every single bit of food he gets. That means you put his food in a bowl, then set it on the table and ask him to sit. When he sits, he gets a small handful of food. Then you ask for another behavior, and another, until the food is all gone. I would also not allow him on furniture, insist that he stay behind you when going through doorways, etc. I have a list of "rules" that you can think about (www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html - go to pack hierarchy). For a dog with such a high prey drive, I'd suggest ALL the rules until you get things worked out more.

And I'd also recommend some hard exercise. Walking on leash is not enough. I don't know how much actual hard exercise Max gets, but he should probably get several sessions every day of chasing a ball or stick or whatever (running hard to get it, returning, throwing again) until his tongue is hanging out the side of his mouth and he's showing obvious signs of being tired. Ideally this is done off-leash so that he can truly run, but if you don't have an area for that you could put a long (say 50') line on him and just be sure not to throw outside the length of the line.

I suggest you read the section on my website on desensitizing. I think Max is over the top in his reactions and desensitizing as a purely positive method would take a long time. You would probably have more success in using a combination of positive reinforcement (for non-reactivity) and negative reinforcement (as per the crittering protocol in Lou Castle's information) with the shock collar. You have to find a point in Max where he stops reacting and starts thinking, and that may very well take something beyond positive reinforcement. I'm not big on suggesting that someone use a shock collar, but I'm also a realist. When it comes to a situation that may be life or death for one of your cats, it is probably kinder to consider the low level stimulation shock collar training.

I, too, agonized about using a shock collar on my dog a few years ago. I did NOT want to use it, but we had a problem with zooming off and reactions to moose (which are tremendously common up here). Moose can kill a dog easily. I didn't want my dog to be dead, and I chose to use a combination of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement (with the shock collar) - and it has been effective. I don't use the collar for other training. It was purely to deal with a dog with a very independent mind and a particular problem. You are not a bad person in any way for considering this in order to try to save your cats and your sanity in living with a dog with such a high prey drive. I respect that you don't want to use the collar and that you are concerned for your dog's well-being. I think that's the way it should be and that collars that provide shock should never be used lightly. But in the right situations there are reasons to use these tools, and this is likely one of those situations.

When you follow the protocol of finding the lowest working level of stimulation for your dog, you will probably find that it isn't as painful as you think it will be. I'm not going to sugar-coat it and say it's not uncomfortable, irritating and yes, even painful at times, but the training teaches the dog that they have the power to stop this from happening. And you'll probably find that when Max gets worked up, he may not even feel that stimulation - which is one of the reasons why you go through a specific set of exercises designed to teach the dog to not react to the animals at a distance and then gradually work in closer. 

Hopefully the collar you bought has a lot of stimulation levels so that you can use the lowest possible. Mine has 100 levels and they go up in very small increments of stimulation so I can be pretty precise in finding the working level. 

In all honesty, it's very possible that Max will never be trustworthy around your cats even with training. His prey drive is part of his genetic personality and while he may learn control to a great extent, you will probably never want to leave him in a situation where he has access to cats when you're not around. It just isn't worth the possibility of losing a cat. So that's something that you will want to keep in mind. You have a decade or more ahead of you where you will have to keep your animals separated. That's a difficult situation.

Best of luck to you and whatever you choose to do. Please read through all the information you can in regards to the shock collars and take what works for you. In regards to Lou, he and I have had our go-arounds but I would suggest really reading his information and understanding the concept of low level stimulation. It's not the old style of "turn up the dial and make 'em yelp" that used to be used. And if you can find someone with experience in low level stimulation and desensitization/crittering, that would be even better. Having a professional there to help you through this would be a big relief for you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Melanie, I already do make Max sit and wait for his food. We have also hand fed him since day one. Not actually in our hand, but we hold the bowl. It was suggested by the breeder to ensure he did not develop any food aggression. Once he sits and waits a couple minutes we let him eat a bit then take the bowl away, place it on the table in front of him, and he has to sit and wait until I place the bowl in front of him again. We usually have 3 "waits" for one meal. I started doing this part on my own because he is a gulper. We lost a dog to bloat and I am petrified of it happening to another one. That is also another reason why we hand feed him.

We used to play a lot of fetch with him while he was on his training leash but one day a motorcycle went by and Max was off like a rocket. He did not make it to the motorcycle but DID run right into the road. Now I am afraid of letting him loose to fetch and only do it if I have someone else out there with me so we can catch him if he takes off. He is far from 100% on his recall, actually his recall sucks and is another thing we have been working hard on.

I have not seen the collar, I refuse to look at it. DH said it has 10 settings. So it is obviously not the one you have. 

I did go out and get Max a muzzle tonight. He hates it of course but that is expected. I am not going to bring the cats into the room with him for a couple of days. I want to have him wear the muzzle for awhile each day before I bring in my kitties and then I will use Leo and crate him. He hates being crated so tonight I put the crate with a very soft baby blanky in it on my bed where Leo likes to hang out and left the door open on it. I put in one of his favorite catnip toys and left the room. I went up awhile ago and Leo was sleeping in the crate! I was pretty happy when I saw that. So I will do that for a couple of days before I attempt to close the door on it. That freaks him out. I just think Sasha has been traumatized enough with the crate situation and Max and will see if I can get anywhere with Leo. Of course he is the PITA that loves to tease Max. Can you say instigator??? That is Leo!


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

Hi Maxismom. Why not take the e-collar out, and try the settings on you. Start at the lowest level and stop when you want to. You may just be afraid of the unknown. Also, since DH already bought the collar, you should read up on how to use it, and try to get DH educated too, as he may (I'm guessing probably, as they are not cheap) go ahead and use it without your approval so you want to do your best that if it gets used, it gets used correctly. (see Lou Castle's crittering protocol for the cat problem)
Time-outs don't make much impression on a hyper dog. There is too much of time lag between behaviour and consequence. If you're going with negative consequences, it has to be one that 'ends' the behaviour (dog doesn't do it again, or at least not immediately). A negative consequence is defined by the dogs behaviour. I'm seconding Melanie's advice. Read over what she tells you about desensitizing and getting Max to the point where he stops reacting and starts thinking--an e-collar used correctly would be appropriate. If you go that route, you'll also achieve off-leash obedience and be able to give Max plenty of exercise.
I've been through these circumstances exactly. I was determined to train Dynamo purely positively. Then I used 'time-outs', then a squirt gun--none of which made any impression at all on her. The prong collar did, an e-collar would of. Just saying this because I've been there, I really have. I remember going to bed a 7pm and crying every night because I loved Dynamo but I loved my cats too and I knew they were in danger. Dynamo also chased an ATV once (got to clock her speed on that incident).
If you are not using negative consequences, do make sure Max doesn't practice his prey-drive on the cats. That means, the minute he begins to get exited (the "look") remove him from the situation. Don't put him back in that situation. If you are doing things purely positively you MUST find something that excites/interests your dog more than the cats. Sorry, I can't think of anything, this is the point where I find other tools.
PS. I never leave my dogs alone with cats, even if I think its okay. Sooner or later, it happens by accident, though, and you want to be sure that when that day rolls around, the dogs attitude to the cat is friendly or neutral.








see how relaxed they all are. Dynamo is the one on the floor. I've lost the pic I've had of her sharing her beanbag chair with the cats.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

Any progress?

LandosMom


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## bpierce (Aug 10, 2007)

I am not a professional trainer and will probably have everyone on my case for this but I have worked with so so many dogs over so so many years. I have used an electric collar after having been taught how by a trainer. It was not awful, it saved the life of my dog by changing his behavior and focusing him. AND I was not associated in any way with the tingling sensation he got as I was not the one inflicting anything on him other than the NO before the zap. Actually my baby (who is full grown and big) only needed a very low setting and one or two lessons but then again all dogs are different. Used correctly it worked for me.


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