# Operant vs Classical conditioning



## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Hmmm, I read on a shyk9's yahoo group about operant and classical conditioning and I find it very interesting and decided to share it with the GSD forum.

From Shy-K9's 
Classical conditioning and Operant conditioning


" Therefore, the question arises: if you feed a dog who is aggressing, are you rewarding the *aggressive behavior* on an operant level (thus *increasing aggressive behavior*), or are you *changing the association* (for the better, thus eventually *reducing aggressive behavior*) on the Pavlovian (classical) level? It would seem that the two "levels" are working in conflict. In a stressed dog, it appears that the Pavlovian level tends to trump the dog's operant learning ability. Thus, if you take a dog who is very stressed and click and treat while it barks hysterically, you will actually reduce the stress and the barking."


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Kev said:


> Hmmm, I read on a shyk9's yahoo group about operant and classical conditioning and I find it very interesting and decided to share it with the GSD forum.
> 
> From Shy-K9's
> Classical conditioning and Operant conditioning
> ...


But wouldnt you click and treat AFTER the dog stops barking, reducing the barking behavior?


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm still confused about this too.
But from what I understand when you click after the dog stops barking, you are teaching him something like a command so it's operant. Clicking while there is a presence of a trigger, calms the dog down. This would be classical conditioning, you are changing the thought process.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Kev said:


> I'm still confused about this too.
> But from what I understand when you click after the dog stops barking, you are teaching him something like a command so it's operant. Clicking while there is a presence of a trigger, calms the dog down. This would be classical conditioning, you are changing the thought process.


Kinda cofuseing  i can wait until i start attending ABC college! Ill be asking many questions like this! XD


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

An Animal Trainer's Introduction To Operant and Classical Conditioning


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Twyla said:


> An Animal Trainer's Introduction To Operant and Classical Conditioning


thank you very much for the link  I just dont get how you would click while the dog is barking, thereforeit would bark more for that it was rewarded for doing so zccording to operant conditioning. but classical is connecting an one thing with another. Pleasecorrect me if im wrong ive always confused the two


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm guessing it would be like, the dog is barking because of a trigger and you pair the trigger with a treat to get a new emotion.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Kev said:


> I'm guessing it would be like, the dog is barking because of a trigger and you pair the trigger with a treat to get a new emotion.


ahhhhhhh! ill have totry that and see if it works


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Hey there! I actually tried this with Celia on our walk, she is usually pretty aggressive towards this one boxer who barks threateningly at her, and it seemed towork well! She passed by him without a single bark. Now i see how it works x3 thanks


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## Magda (Feb 26, 2012)

Great link thanks! Now to try it with the pups!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kev said:


> I'm still confused about this too.
> But from what I understand when you click after the dog stops barking, you are teaching him something like a command so it's operant. Clicking while there is a presence of a trigger, calms the dog down. This would be classical conditioning, you are changing the thought process.


Kinda, sorta. I would personally not mark behavior that I want to discourage, so no clicking for a dog that's barking hysterically. What you can do is to click and reward everything that's NOT the reaction, even for a brief second. See Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog


It sounds like what you're referring to is counter-conditioning - pairing something good with the presence of a trigger. You change the dog's emotional response by creating a positive association with the trigger - if the reason for the dog's reaction is taken away there's no reason for the reaction and it will eventually extinguish. Ideally, this process occurs with the dog under threshold, BEFORE they react, so you're really not rewarding bad behavior. If the dog is already barking hysterically you've gone over threshold and the dog is not capable of thinking and learning. Make good things happen for the dog at a distance that he notices the trigger but hasn't yet reacted, and gradually you'll be able to decrease that distance. 

If you're working on the dog's behavior (dog has to do something to earn a reward), that's operant conditioning. If you're working on the dog's emotional state (dog doesn't have to do anything in particular to be rewarded, he just needs to be in the presence of a trigger), that's classical conditioning. There are time when one is going to be better and times where the other is going to be better, but I don't think they're necessarily in conflict.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Kev said:


> Hmmm, I read on a shyk9's yahoo group about operant and classical conditioning and I find it very interesting and decided to share it with the GSD forum.
> 
> From Shy-K9's
> Classical conditioning and Operant conditioning
> ...


 
Sounds like a stereotypical and all too common approach to DA. Are they serious - suggesting that when your dog is in full aggression to another dog (not just below threshhold) when you do have a chance to get his attention) that you offer him a TREAT". Yea, I can see that working with my (and many others) dog. 

I guess maybe that they assume that the clicker click noise will shift his attention to you and the great high value treat that is coming; and thus make him forget about that other dog that he wants to kill!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

mi no comprendez.



Kev said:


> Hmmm, I read on a shyk9's yahoo group about operant and classical conditioning and I find it very interesting and decided to share it with the GSD forum.
> 
> From Shy-K9's
> Classical conditioning and Operant conditioning
> ...


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Yes, I have the Click to calm book. Emma Parson recommends to reduce aggression, you click at the lowest point of their aggression while he is over threshold so it would eventually tone down the reaction. If the dog doesn't have the lowest point of aggression, then you click in between breaths. At first her dog wasn't able to focus on the food but by a few month he started taking the food.

To me this seems like a long way to increase threshold. I still prefer staying at a distance and treating sub threshold but it's still an option


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Might be copyright material  so not gonna post it


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Okay, so another thing I learned on ShyK9's. Kinda long so I'll put it in point form
Not sure if it's all true.

-Rewarding a dog when it's fearful will not reinforce their fear because classical conditioning does not enter the realm of emotions.

-A dog, like humans cannot have control over their fears and its an in voluntary action that overrides the learning experience of the dog. So the dog cannot* learn* to be more fearful when they're reacting.

-Operant conditioning takes place in the cortex of the brain and Classical Conditioning takes place in the Limbic system. The Limbic system 
causes involuntary action

-Operant conditioning affects behaviors. Fear is not a behavior 

- A copy and paste  
" Now the inner emotion of fear is typically accompanied by many behaviors--shaking, sweating, increased pulse and respiration, higher blood pressure, withdrawal of blood from the periphery of the body, etc. But these observable behaviors are also not normally under the control of reinforcement or punishment. They are caused by chemical reactions that involve adrenaline, hormones, neurotransmitters, and reflexes."

- Use higher value treats.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Kev said:


> Okay, so another thing I learned on ShyK9's. Kinda long so I'll put it in point form
> Not sure if it's all true.
> 
> -Rewarding a dog when it's fearful will not reinforce their fear because classical conditioning does not enter the realm of emotions.
> ...


huh! all this is extremely interesting and useful. This may help my dog get even more over dog-to-dog aggression


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Kev said:


> Emma Parson recommends to reduce aggression, you click at the lowest point of their aggression while he is over threshold so it would eventually tone down the reaction. If the dog doesn't have the lowest point of aggression, then you click in between breaths. At first her dog wasn't able to focus on the food but by a few month he started taking the food.


Sure this might work but why do it the hard way? To me, I don't want the dog 'rehearsing' his bad behaviors at all. It's much better to work below threshold!


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