# Growling and lunging at vet



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

I posted awhile back about our German Shepherd mix, Bailey, who at around 10 or 11 months old went from loving strangers coming up to her and petting her to all of the sudden not wanting to have anything to do with strangers. Now, it has gotten to the point where she won't even let the vet exam her. She growls and tries to lunge at her. Fortunately, we have a great vet and she offered to let me bring Bailey in once a week with treats and she would even come in and try to work with Bailey. Well, after the second visit Bailey was actually letting the vet pet her and give her treats, and even got on the scale for her! She still won't let her exam her though. The vet just has to even look like she's trying to look at something on her and Bailey starts growling and lunging. The Benadryl that the vet had recommended we try didn't even have any effect on her. I even gave her the 75 mg that she suggested, and Bailey only weighs 50 pounds. We did the visits for a little over a month and I finally told the vet that I will contact the behaviorist that she referred us to. She agreed and wished me luck and just had this really sad look on her face like she doesn't know if anything can be done. I am planning on contacting the behaviorist, but now I'm worried that she will never let a vet exam her and I don't know what can be done. Has anyone had experience with this? I asked the vet if they have dogs there that have to be "knocked out" in order to be examined and she said yes and it's usually the larger dogs, and they do have very small dogs that even have to be "knocked out" to be examined because they can't hold on to them while they're squirming. 

I absolutely hate seeing her this way with the vet. I can manage her with strangers by just not taking her out in public, but she HAS to go to the vet! She is such a sweet dog with us and has never shown any signs of aggression, no food aggression, no toy aggression, nothing. She just has the occasional "talking back" or over dramatic attitude when she doesn't want to do something, but she hardly even does that anymore. I've noticed that she will not focus on me when she is with the vet or if she sees the neighbor's dog and that is something that I am STILL trying to work on. Normally, all I have to do is snap my fingers at her and she knows to sit and look at me, but when she is focused on something there is nothing I can do. I have even tried putting myself in front of her and whatever it is she is focused on to let her know that I'm in control, but she just looks around me.

I'm rambling on, but I am just so worried that her fearfulness or aggressiveness will not be able to be changed towards the vet even working with the behaviorist. She just seems to have a really hard time trusting people. Has anyone else had experience with this?

Thank you


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hi Raven, 
Sorry to hear you are going through this, cute pup though! We went through a similar thing with Gandalf, when he was at his worst pretty much at deaths door we took him to a specialist with better equipment.. the specialist had to run a variety of different tests on him when Gandalf was feeling very sick. Gandalf put up a good fight and even nicked the vets hand pretty good, we ended up having to knock him out to get the tests ran. The vet was very understanding considering Gandalf wasn't feeling like himself. Ever since then Gandalf has never liked this vet which is unfortunate since he has the best equipment and knowledge in our area, he does fine with any other vet or person we have went to! But sadly will not forget what happened. Our only solution was to switch regular vets, since he has no bad memories with them he doesn't mind at all being examined. Any serious issues I will still probably take him to our old vet since I trust his expertise the most, but routine checkups we will stick with other people. You might want to try this too and visit another vet from now on, start off on a clean slate... just schedule a visit for a routine check up without any pokes or prods and bring lots of treats and toys.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My experience with a dog that is aggressive at the vets. 
Some strange combination of factors come into play, multiple animal smells, a sense of stress and fear in the clinic and so many vets seem clueless about dog body language. They do a much better job of teaching techs then vets IMHO. 
Shadow is always fine with the techs, always. Hops on the scale, takes treats, rubs against them. Then the vet walks in and all heck breaks loose. Techs do lots of the exam with her normally. 
So, I keep her muzzled for everyone's peace of mind. I keep her in the car until the vet is ready to reduce the length of time she is in the room, I refuse to lift her on to the table which is slippery and scary so she isn't feeling so vulnerable, and I request that the vet enter the room before us so he is there when she walks in and not entering a room where she is cornered and stressed.
I did weekly visits just to weigh her and get pets and treats, but since she likes the techs anyway it had limited success. Now I sedate her for most visits, since without sedation it's tough to get a good exam in. Not enough to knock her out just enough to make her drowsy.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I may get tomatoes thrown at me for this recommendation - but you may want to consider working with her on being muzzled at the vets office. This *may* help calm her down while being examined. It also protects the vet and you being the owner.

This is one of my favorite threads on the board. A ton of good info about introducing dogs to their environment, including appropriate stranger interactions. It's hard to properly say what's going on with your girl on-line but it sounds like she's totally stressed out, boundaries have been crossed with her, as she sees it. She's also still a very young dog. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

I forgot to add that that vet and I have tried both with the muzzle on and with the muzzle off. No difference  I also forgot to add that while her behavior started changing towards strangers around 10 or 11 months, she is now 2 years old and her behavior has slowly started getting worse towards the vet. Sorry, trying to do too many things today, lol. Thank you all for your responses so far!


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Good that you are willing to try a muzzle. My opinion - for everyone's safety have her wearing a muzzle anytime she is going to the vet. Take the time to really shop for one, make it a basket muzzle - NOT the nylon grooming muzzles they have at the vets. 

My question would be is her reactions to the vet, vet office, tech/s or just the whole set up? My troublemaker is somewhat HA - better now (yayyy). At the vet office, he loves the vets, front office all the techs EXCEPT for one. That one tech is I would say is spastic - hyper, jerky movements, not a calm bone in her body - sets him off, thankfully he is muzzled. So think about the office set up and how it may relate to her behavior.

The suggestion I would make is if it comes to having to sedate her - do not let them use ACE. That will only increase your problems. ACE sedates the body but leaves the mind active. Imagine being trapped and unable to defend yourself.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Twyla said:


> Good that you are willing to try a muzzle. My opinion - for everyone's safety have her wearing a muzzle anytime she is going to the vet. Take the time to really shop for one, make it a basket muzzle - NOT the nylon grooming muzzles they have at the vets.
> 
> My question would be is her reactions to the vet, vet office, tech/s or just the whole set up? My troublemaker is somewhat HA - better now (yayyy). At the vet office, he loves the vets, front office all the techs EXCEPT for one. That one tech is I would say is spastic - hyper, jerky movements, not a calm bone in her body - sets him off, thankfully he is muzzled. So think about the office set up and how it may relate to her behavior.
> 
> The suggestion I would make is if it comes to having to sedate her - do not let them use ACE. That will only increase your problems. ACE sedates the body but leaves the mind active. Imagine being trapped and unable to defend yourself.


Yes, I definitely always have her muzzled. One thing we did try at her last exam since the vet thought that maybe it is also a protective thing, was my daughter and I left the room while the vet tried to check out this rash on her belly (Bailey was growling and lunging just because she was trying to look) and the vet said that she still growled a little, but she was better and she was able to look. Her reaction is to the whole set up now. I was able to take her in every couple of weeks to have her nails trimmed, but nope not anymore. She evens starts growling at people now if they just start talking to her! Like I said, I can manage her around strangers and visitors (if needed), but she has to go to the vet. I have heard that about ACE, thanks for the reminder! After reading some of the testimonials on this behaviorist's website and on their Facebook page, I am feeling a little more hopeful. It seems that she has dealt with some major fear aggression towards people.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I see that you posted this before about a lump on her throat. Was this ever resolved? Just a random thought - is she in pain? Some dogs can be aggressive when they are.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/684601-lump-center-throat.html


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Courtney said:


> I see that you posted this before about a lump on her throat. Was this ever resolved? Just a random thought - is she in pain? Some dogs can be aggressive when they are.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/684601-lump-center-throat.html


We took her to the vet for that (when she would actually let the vet exam her, lol) and she couldn't feel it. I will definitely bring that up with the behaviorist. If it is related to the lump, I wonder if she would be aggressive all the time and not just with other people?


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

raven414a - glad the vet did check it out and could not find anything. Not sure what you felt.

You make a good point. If she were in pain of some sort, I don't think she would only be aggressive with those unknown to her. My comment is most likely a dead end (on the pain) but I just wanted to ask because of the previous post.


----------



## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Options from a tech who handles dozens of dogs every day, none of whom want to be there:

Find a clinic that respectfully handles your dog and doesn't cowboy through things. They use "fear free" methods.

Condition to a well fitted basket muzzle. 

Counter condition to handling and going to office. Baby steps.

Sedation. My personal favorite. Animals seem the least stressed out. Very safe and reversible.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Irie said:


> Options from a tech who handles dozens of dogs every day, none of whom want to be there:
> 
> Find a clinic that respectfully handles your dog and doesn't cowboy through things. They use "fear free" methods.
> 
> ...


Great suggestions, thanks! I'm thinking I probably will have to go with the sedation even after seeing the behaviorist. Even though I have owned dogs all my life, I don't have much experience with sedation. Is it a shot, is there a medication that can be given beforehand? And, if it's a shot how would the vet or tech be able to get close enough to her to administer it without her lunging?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had an aggressive rescue who needed a walking sedative and a muzzle. I would not knock him out fully for a vet exam, so they gave us a tranquilizer that worked very well. It’s not used anymore but because it worked on him, they continued to prescribe it.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Well, just heard back from the behaviorist. They are booked up through June and unfortunately Bailey is due for her heartworm test at the end of June. I was really hoping to get her in at least within a month to get some answers about what I can do for that next vet visit. The behaviorist stated on their email that they do have a waiting list and try to move the appointments up if possible, so maybe that can happen. But now, I'm going back and forth on whether or not to even take her to a behaviorist. I mean, will she ever really be "cured" of her fear aggression? I guess after the vet and I working with her for over a month and Bailey still not letting her exam her, I just feel like it's hopeless. I guess I will ask our vet about a sedative for that heartworm test in June, I just really hope it works, and I wonder why she didn't mention it at all.


----------



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

raven414a said:


> Well, just heard back from the behaviorist. They are booked up through June and unfortunately Bailey is due for her heartworm test at the end of June. I was really hoping to get her in at least within a month to get some answers about what I can do for that next vet visit. The behaviorist stated on their email that they do have a waiting list and try to move the appointments up if possible, so maybe that can happen. But now, I'm going back and forth on whether or not to even take her to a behaviorist. I mean, will she ever really be "cured" of her fear aggression? I guess after the vet and I working with her for over a month and Bailey still not letting her exam her, I just feel like it's hopeless. I guess I will ask our vet about a sedative for that heartworm test in June, I just really hope it works, and I wonder why she didn't mention it at all.


Fenzi Dog Sports Acadamy is running an online Cooperative Canine Care course in June. Might be worth looking into. 

https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2392


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My youngest can't stand the vet. He was fine up until he got neutered at 16 months. I still don't know what happened that day, but I'm convinced something happened. He is fine with the girls up front, ok but not trusting of the vet and he can't stand any of the vet techs. They all wear different color shirts and as I watched his reaction to them I am not sure if it was towards the individuals or if he was profiling them. My gut tells me that one of the techs was not good to him. He hasn't been back since then but is due for shots at the end of the year. We are going to a different vet and I'm dreading it. He will be muzzled for sure and I will be the one holding him. I'm interested in seeing how he does with a different vet and a completely different office. I've never had this issue before, so I will just wait and see what happens on this next visit.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Bramble said:


> Fenzi Dog Sports Acadamy is running an online Cooperative Canine Care course in June. Might be worth looking into.
> 
> https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2392


Will definitely look into that, thanks!


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

llombardo said:


> My youngest can't stand the vet. He was fine up until he got neutered at 16 months. I still don't know what happened that day, but I'm convinced something happened. He is fine with the girls up front, ok but not trusting of the vet and he can't stand any of the vet techs. They all wear different color shirts and as I watched his reaction to them I am not sure if it was towards the individuals or if he was profiling them. My gut tells me that one of the techs was not good to him. He hasn't been back since then but is due for shots at the end of the year. We are going to a different vet and I'm dreading it. He will be muzzled for sure and I will be the one holding him. I'm interested in seeing how he does with a different vet and a completely different office. I've never had this issue before, so I will just wait and see what happens on this next visit.


That's exactly how I feel about it as well, dreading it. I was thinking about that also with Bailey that maybe one time when they had her in the back trimming her nails they might have done something to her. It's hard to tell with her though because she doesn't like anyone coming up to her anymore anywhere (except at the drive-thrus because they have food, lol). That does sound like maybe that's what happened to your youngest one. Best of luck to you!


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

raven414a said:


> Well, just heard back from the behaviorist. They are booked up through June and unfortunately Bailey is due for her heartworm test at the end of June. I was really hoping to get her in at least within a month to get some answers about what I can do for that next vet visit. The behaviorist stated on their email that they do have a waiting list and try to move the appointments up if possible, so maybe that can happen. But now, I'm going back and forth on whether or not to even take her to a behaviorist. I mean, will she ever really be "cured" of her fear aggression? I guess after the vet and I working with her for over a month and Bailey still not letting her exam her, I just feel like it's hopeless. I guess I will ask our vet about a sedative for that heartworm test in June, I just really hope it works, and I wonder why she didn't mention it at all.


Definitely continue with your plans to work with a behaviorist. They will not only work with training her, but training you as well. There is a lot of things - little and big - we as handlers do that affect these fearful dogs. 

As far as curing.. Woolf isn't 'cured'; he is managed. He has learned coping skills. Dog smart people are relatively safe around him (I decide when and if they are safe). This is a dog that at one point trainers and vets both recommended to pts but now rolls over for a belly scratch.

Post where you are at or I may have missed that. Someone may know of another trainer/behaviorist in the area.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Thank you, Twyla. I am in the Houston area.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I am more concerned about lunging at random strangers. What have you tried to suppress this?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

raven414a said:


> Well, just heard back from the behaviorist. They are booked up through June and unfortunately Bailey is due for her heartworm test at the end of June. I was really hoping to get her in at least within a month to get some answers about what I can do for that next vet visit. The behaviorist stated on their email that they do have a waiting list and try to move the appointments up if possible, so maybe that can happen. But now, I'm going back and forth on whether or not to even take her to a behaviorist. I mean, will she ever really be "cured" of her fear aggression? I guess after the vet and I working with her for over a month and Bailey still not letting her exam her, I just feel like it's hopeless. I guess I will ask our vet about a sedative for that heartworm test in June, I just really hope it works, and I wonder why she didn't mention it at all.


Fear aggression does not get cured. But I did get my dog to the point where she very nearly ignores everything. It was a long, slow process measured in inches not miles.
Vets don't like having to sedate dogs for exams. It makes it tricky to measure things like heart rate, and really difficult to get a good look at a dogs eyes and overall demeanor which are huge tells. They cannot check for pain or discomfort.
A word of warning, stressed dogs react to sedatives differently and many will successfully fight it off. If possible weigh your dog, pick up an oral sedative and give it in the car. Once she is out you will likely need help carrying her in. Standing sedatives pose a risk in that the dog may fight and hurt itself, many don't work well. 
Also be aware that GSD's as a breed often react oddly to some meds. Before sedating make sure you have a muzzle, blankets and wipes in your car. Some suffer drops in body temp, some vomit and some void bladders.

Shadow goes into a mini rage coming out of it, and sometimes vomits.


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I am more concerned about lunging at random strangers. What have you tried to suppress this?


When she had started backing away, lowering her head, and growling at strangers who wanted to come up and pet her, I stopped taking her out in public. She decided one day that she did not want strangers coming up to her anymore. Right now, the vet and the techs are the only people she is lunging at. I had noticed that after her behavior change, when the techs performed the fecal test on her, she turned to lunge at them and they immediately walked out. That was the first time that she did that and I had the muzzle and leash on her. Since then, she has done that to them. I'm wondering if since they walked away from her when she lunged if she realized that she had the power to make them leave or something? 

To answer your question, I have tried snapping my fingers at her because any other time she knows that means to sit and look at me and I have also tried standing in front of her and the vet to try to let her know that I'm in control. Neither one works. That's definitely what needs to be worked on is her focus on me in times like that. She does eventually warm up to people and she lets them pet her, and she actually lets the vet pet her, but she absolutely will not let her exam her.


----------



## Mudypoz (Mar 3, 2016)

I just saw this video from Texas Veterinary Behavior Services, using a clicker to help the dog overcome intense fear at the vets. Being a fan of clicker training in general, I could definitely see trying this.

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=clicker training dog at vet


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Mudypoz, that is funny because that is the behaviorist who our vet referred us to! I went ahead and scheduled a visit. The first available is over a month away, but it seems like she is really good, and they do have a waiting list where they move appointments up if possible. I already feel better just speaking to the girl who scheduled and took all the information. I don't feel so alone anymore, lol.


----------



## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

> To answer your question, I have tried snapping my fingers at her because any other time she knows that means to sit and look at me and I have also tried standing in front of her and the vet to try to let her know that I'm in control. Neither one works.


Caesar Milan techniques are not the cure all that people think they are. It sounds like when your dog started acting out, it got it's way. People walked out the door, you removed the dog from the public and stopped socializing. This only reinforced and compounded the issue. 

I would keep your appointment with the behavourist. They will teach you how to work with and teach your dog. Hopefully, you can get in under control and by that I mean it becomes manageable. But never let your guard down and trust that your dog is finally ok.


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

raven414a said:


> Has anyone had experience with this? I asked the vet if they have dogs there that have to be "knocked out" in order to be examined and she said yes and it's usually the larger dogs, and they do have very small dogs that even have to be "knocked out" to be examined because they can't hold on to them while they're squirming.


Our vet gave us the dog version of Valium once he was a year old. He's always HATED being examined by the vet to the point where he's snapped at them. He doesn't hate any person specifically and is fine with them when they aren't poking and prodding.

We give him 2 tablets (not the 3 recommended as it would put him on the floor) and he pretty much looks and walks like he's hammered. He's still awake enough to growl and complain at being examined, and we still make him wear a cloth muzzle to make it clear to him that there's to be no funny business. So he just resigns himself to the situation and puts up with whatever has to be done.

Once the vet is finished, the muzzle comes off, she gives him a cookie (after we make him sit for it--nothing for free, sorry bro), and everybody's kosher again.


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

raven414a said:


> When she had started backing away, lowering her head, and growling at strangers who wanted to come up and pet her, I stopped taking her out in public. She decided one day that she did not want strangers coming up to her anymore. Right now, the vet and the techs are the only people she is lunging at. I had noticed that after her behavior change, when the techs performed the fecal test on her, she turned to lunge at them and they immediately walked out. That was the first time that she did that and I had the muzzle and leash on her. Since then, she has done that to them. I'm wondering if since they walked away from her when she lunged if she realized that she had the power to make them leave or something?


To answer your question: yes. They shouldn't have walked away. Backing up and giving her space would have been fine, but other than that they should have stood their ground while you gave her a command. Once she followed the command and at least offered some submissive response (a quick look away would have been just fine) or looked at you, then they could walk away. Lunging =/= vet techs go away. Listening to you = they go away.

I also think not taking her out in public was a bad idea. Instead, you should have told people not to pet her. The same logic above applies:

Dog = uncomfortable. Dog growling =/= stranger goes away. Following owner's command and owner saying something to stranger = stranger goes away. Dog = relieved.

End result: owner + command to dog + command to strangers = safety, relief, comfort.
Secondary result: owner = safety, relief, comfort.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, what is this GSD mix mixed with?


----------



## raven414a (Feb 2, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is this GSD mix mixed with?


The shelter had her listed as German Shepherd/Black Mouth Cur


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

raven414a said:


> When she had started backing away, lowering her head, and growling at strangers who wanted to come up and pet her, I stopped taking her out in public. She decided one day that she did not want strangers coming up to her anymore. Right now, the vet and the techs are the only people she is lunging at. I had noticed that after her behavior change, when the techs performed the fecal test on her, she turned to lunge at them and they immediately walked out. That was the first time that she did that and I had the muzzle and leash on her. Since then, she has done that to them. I'm wondering if since they walked away from her when she lunged if she realized that she had the power to make them leave or something?
> 
> To answer your question, I have tried snapping my fingers at her because any other time she knows that means to sit and look at me and I have also tried standing in front of her and the vet to try to let her know that I'm in control. Neither one works. That's definitely what needs to be worked on is her focus on me in times like that. She does eventually warm up to people and she lets them pet her, and she actually lets the vet pet her, but she absolutely will not let her exam her.


I have been thinking since the start of this thread this dog was inadvertently majorly reinforced for this behavior. They do this stuff because it works. Act out--owner jerks them away from whatever or the person backs up because they are scared. 

You need to turn that on its head. Remove upsetting stimulus when the dog controls herself. Which means, trigger needs to be something dog can tolerate without blowing up. Impossible to know over the internet (why you need a good trainer to help you). But example:

--dog can go into empty exam room and be restrained by owner (do you know how to restrain the dog properly? If not start there, and with a good muzzle)

--can you restrain dog while she hears someone outside exam room? If she could tolerate that without blowing up, I would reward and remove her from vet altogether for the day.

--Can you restrain dog and get her to hold still and not blow if she sees a tech from across the lobby of vet, yay reward and remove from vet for the day. Better yet if there is a second person who can operate a clicker and high value food reward while this is going on.

--Same idea in public, take her to the grocery store parkinglot or somewhere. Park very far away from everyone. See if you can find the distance at which she can see a stranger and not react and if she does not show aggression, you can reward by inviting her to put more space between herself and the stranger. 

You have to be very good at warding people off so some idiot doesn't barge in to pet your dog and ruin everything.


----------

