# Violent Puppy



## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

Gracie, 18 weeks, is an incredibly difficult puppy. She seems to be constantly one step ahead of everything.

One of her biggest issues is biting. She is extremely violent. This evening, she was ripping at my sister's shoes and then began lunging up at her face and arms. She ended up latching on to her arm. Gracie did the same thing to me later on in the evening.

Another issue is that she will stalk us and then "attack". Gracie will run ahead, lay in the grass motionless, and when we are within distance...she will roughly pounce on us. Picture a huge puppy (40 lbs.) flying off of the ground and slamming themselves on to you. 

Her behavior is very difficult to control. Redirection rarely works. She is not attracted to toys and will rarely go after a treat because she is so intensely focused on preying upon us.

At first, I thought that she was lacking in exercise and mental stimulation. However, we can train her backside off, take her to the park for plenty of socialization, play and walk with her for a long time...and she will still break out with these behaviors.

I am scratching my head about what to do. I am sure that I am doing something wrong somewhere, but I am clueless about what more I can do.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So, you want a high drive puppy.....?

Honestly, it sounds like you're doing all the right things. She's an intense puppy... a lot of german shepherds are. Give it time, have patience, stay consistent, and keep doing what you're doing.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Is there any way you can get video of these behaviors? She sounds like she needs a SERIOUS outlet. She needs a way to get that energy out but what you're able to do doesnt seem to be enough. What does she get to chew on?


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> Is there any way you can get video of these behaviors? She sounds like she needs a SERIOUS outlet. She needs a way to get that energy out but what you're able to do doesnt seem to be enough. What does she get to chew on?


I bought her a pack of Bully sticks. She absolutely loves them and will chew on them for hours.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Can you give us a run through of a typical day with Gracie?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

carry a bully stick with you. Use that as a reward for good behavior instead of treats for training, she gets to chew the bully stick for a short time. Kinda like how trainers will use the rope toy as the positive reinforcement for training a new command. If she knows she's going to get something good out of it that she really enjoys, she may be more inclined to chill out a bit. She has to connect the dots between, "I sat when i was told, I get to chew my fun stuff!" or "I stopped biting and wasnt obnoxious and i got to chew my fun stuff!" You can practive nothing in life is free with her ALL the time, even if she is a puppy. She gets nothing good or fun without good behavior. Time outs. Basically.... i guess i would say treat her like a parolee. She has to earn what she wants. Keep training like crazy and socializing and just running her ragged. I'm assuming she's teething since she's 18 weeks so you just need to endure for a little bit longer. Remember, like a human kid, those teeth coming through HURT! She's doing everything she can to ease that pain.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Can you give us a run through of a typical day with Gracie?


Sure.

*8:00* - Breakfast and 3/4 mile walk
*8:30* - crate
*10:00* - Outdoor playtime and training
*11:00* - crate
*12:00* - 3/4 mile walk, lunch, training, play
*1:15 -* crate
*3:00 *- play, grooming, training and another walk if she needs it
*4:00* - crate
*6:00 *- dinner, play, training
*7:00 *- socialization outside of the house
*8:00* - bedtime


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You could lay her meals in a track so she has to work for it, or toss it in the yard so she at least has to hunt for it. 
As soon as she's done teething, I'd start playing some tug with her. Many pups that are oral get the need to bite out thru tugging and it is also mental exercise. 

When you say training, what are you doing? Have you looked at Michael Ellis's free clips on the Leerburg site? Scroll down to the bottom for the freebies: Leerburg On Demand | The Best Source of Free Dog Training Videos On the Web
I would get into a good class with her, if possible.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You seem like you're doing a great job and that's a very good schedule to keep. As I said in my earlier post... you have an intense high drive puppy. 

Just keep up what you're doing and it will get easier as she grows and matures.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> You could lay her meals in a track so she has to work for it, or toss it in the yard so she at least has to hunt for it.
> As soon as she's done teething, I'd start playing some tug with her. Many pups that are oral get the need to bite out thru tugging and it is also mental exercise.
> 
> When you say training, what are you doing? Have you looked at Michael Ellis's free clips on the Leerburg site? Scroll down to the bottom for the freebies: Leerburg On Demand | The Best Source of Free Dog Training Videos On the Web
> I would get into a good class with her, if possible.


She catches on to each new training command very easily. She can sit, down, stay, leave it, and come. Currently, we are working a bit on heeling and coming and walking behind me and around to me left side and sitting. At first, I thought that I was teaching her things that were too advanced for her age...but she absolutely loves training and is always ready for the next challenge.

We go to classes once a week and the trainer is helping us to work with her.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What kind of toy are you using for redirection? I liked something soft like a rolled up handtowel and how are you tugging. Growly or Squeeky? Sometimes a dog will be intimidated if you are being growly and wont take the toy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think Leerburg has changed the freebies into pay per view, not much selection in my above link.

This video is a great example for training a pup, you can do this even if you aren't training in SchH. The pup in the video is a couple weeks younger than yours, and if you click on the blog in the thread other videos should link(or the youtube acct)
Bully sticks can be too much sometimes, I would get her a nice raw beef knucklebone to work on when she is crated(supervised) that will help while teething and if her ears aren't up yet, the cartilage in the knuckle will help along with strengthening the head muscles from chewing.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> What kind of toy are you using for redirection? I liked something soft like a rolled up handtowel and how are you tugging. Growly or Squeeky? Sometimes a dog will be intimidated if you are being growly and wont take the toy.


We use her favorite toy that looks like a basketball that squeaks and has two ropes coming out of it. I use a squeaky/happy voice when playing with her and redirecting. Also, while I will move the toy around to get her attention...I will not tug on it hard because she is teething.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

You might want to try different toys, until you find one that she is really crazy for. And remember that she can always change her mind about which toy is fascinating, so be prepared to rotate the high value toys.

Also, it might help if you get a little more proactive in redirecting her. It sounds like you might be waiting too long to try to redirect her. She is already locked onto you/whoever. Can you try to redirect her with a toy or obedience work a little earlier, before she is so focused?

Good luck! Puppies are a lot of work. Some even more than others!
Sheilah


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Hang in there... Be consistent, firm, and fair... It will get better if you do your part


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gracie's My Girl said:


> Sure.
> 
> *8:00* - Breakfast and 3/4 mile walk
> *8:30* - crate
> ...


I am no expert here, but you're putting puppy in a crate for 6 hrs. Granted it's broken up (what I'd recommend too) but is there any way that instead of being stuck back in the crate the puppy can be loose in the house with playtoys, tugs or chews, and gate it somewhere safe? 
Why does she need crated so much?
Also bedtime's awfully early. Our pup goes to bed when we do, around 9-10pm. 

The reason I mention this is our puppy is insanely mellow. But I've noticed he becomes pretty hyper if kept crated more than a few hrs. He spends most his time during the day out and about. 

Not that crate time is bad by any means, but if our dog, being very low-key, gets hyper after a few hrs. in a crate, yours, being a "drivey" dog, could probably use more play time and less crate time?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm kinda hung up on the crate thing to, and it's just me, so don't take it personally.

I don't know if your home all day but assuming you are, since she's in and out of the crate off and on all day..

When I have a puppy and I'm home all day,,the puppy is usually not in a crate, Sure if they need downtime or I need a break, they may go in the crate for a time

But the majority of time they are out of the crate, and yeah you do have to keep an eye on them, but hey that's why I get a puppy

Also agree that crate time is NOT bad, many people work, so it's a must, but I just feel if I'm home, no big deal, they are out with me


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

what are you doing when she starts biting you??? until my guy was done teething i had a soft plastic bottle and i put layers of socks around it. it's really soft on their teeth (like your skin muahahahaha). or even just socks knotted together. i had an old leash too that he loved to chew on because he could get it all the way in the back of his mouth. at 4 months i started to correct him for biting (which he does when he wants to get you to play) and i would scruff him and say no.

in the beginning stages it may seem violent but it's just a crazy hyper puppy with sharp sharp teeth and she doesn't know what to do! puppies are fun but i am SO glad my dog is now almost 9 months. we have other problems-but at least my scratches are healing lol


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I actually like the idea of using the crate throughout the day for a puppy. Just like pretty much everything else you do at this age... it's training. 

It gets them used to going in it. Puppies are constantly sleeping in and out all day... I figure they might as well do it in the crate, so it's not a "culture shock" when they go in it for hours at night.

Now as an adult, trained dog and assuming you're home all day... that's a different story. As a puppy, I see no problem with the in and out of the crate all day thing.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

At 18 weeks, which is a little over 4 months, that crate time doesn't seem excessive to me. I think you both need that time for reasons of sanity. That age is a very bratty age and my girl was very much like yours (she's a total sweetheart now). She was very mouthy and out in the yard she just went nuts. She still does now sometimes. The only thing that worked for us was a firm NO and we made sure we were facing her with good eye contact. Different dogs respond to different things .... don't know what works for yours. According to all of your training success it seems
likely that you will succeed in solving this problem. Keep up the training. Keep asserting your leadership role. She will catch on, but right now she's a teenager and
a part of that is surviving her testing testing testing.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Just chiming in..but that puppy is in the crate 18 1/2 hours a day. I think you have a cabin fever problem! If I am at home, I keep the dogs busy all day starting with a big morning run, barn chores, laundry (going up/down stairs)/ gardening, Petsmart, walks, swimming , dog class, and lots of heel, sit,down, stay practice. 

You are keeping a very active animal confined that wants to run, pounce, play, wrestle, chase, etc.

Hope exercise helps!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

ponyfarm said:


> Just chiming in..but that puppy is in the crate 18 1/2 hours a day. I think you have a cabin fever problem! If I am at home, I keep the dogs busy all day starting with a big morning run, barn chores, laundry (going up/down stairs)/ gardening, Petsmart, walks, swimming , dog class, and lots of heel, sit,down, stay practice.
> 
> You are keeping a very active animal confined that wants to run, pounce, play, wrestle, chase, etc.
> 
> Hope exercise helps!


That's my take too. Bedtime is 8pm and up at 8am that's 12 hours in the crate?! That's too long.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Too much crate time. At that age, mine got crated after breakfast for about 45 minutes. Got about an hour to an hour and a half at lunch time and 45 minutes at dinner time. (I crate around meals because of bloat concerns, so just start the habit when they are pups).
Mine then stay out and about the rest of the day, either following me around, occasionally playing with an older dog, but mostly just hanging and doing what I do. I keep them awake until at least 10-11pm, and get them up around 7:00a or so. 
You may need more external outlets for the puppy energy, playdates with socially adept dogs or even daycare once a week if you can find a good one (not one that allows for crazy behavior and spends all day spraying the dogs with vinegar and water solution!).

Annette


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

Because I am receiving a lot of comments about the amount of crate time, I will do my best to answer them.

I am a full time college student studying to become an x-ray tech. The program is incredibly demanding and it is challenging to balance raising a puppy and studying. My sister also helps with Gracie, but she is a high school student. While we are able to take breaks to be with Gracie, the reality is that we do have serious things to do that interupts all that we wish we could do. We desperately need the time during the evenings and the few hours during the day to study. If we could do it any other way, we would.

This is a bit of a side track, but the puppy is not mine. She is my brother's. However, he has proven himself to be incompetent in handling her and he will not help out with her. Because of this, the responsibility has been taken up by my mom, younger sister, and I. The three of us never planned on being too involved with the dog and are having to make lemonade from lemons. I love Gracie and do my absolute best for her, but the shift in responsibility is difficult to manage at times.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I can definitely see that we have an issue with her energy and that giving her more outlets will help. I am going to encourage other members of my family to lend a hand and get her out of the crate more while I am busy with school. Hopefully, her behavior will improve.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thank you for taking on the responsibility of your brother's puppy and handling it the best you can rather than letting her grow up completely untrained and unsocialized or end up in a shelter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the crate time during the day is not excessive, an hour here, and hour there. I think 12 hours in the crate over night is hard, partly because a four - five month old pup does not necessarily have a bladder size to manage that. It is a long time. Is the crate right with you when you are studying. Is the crate in your room with you at night? 

You might consider an x-pen or baby gate where there is more room for the pup to run about, play with its toys, and not be quite as confined, from say 8pm to midnight, in the room with you. Than out one last time and then crated for the night. 

Just a thought.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think the crate time during the day is not excessive, an hour here, and hour there. I think 12 hours in the crate over night is hard, partly because a four - five month old pup does not necessarily have a bladder size to manage that. It is a long time. Is the crate right with you when you are studying. Is the crate in your room with you at night?
> 
> You might consider an x-pen or baby gate where there is more room for the pup to run about, play with its toys, and not be quite as confined, from say 8pm to midnight, in the room with you. Than out one last time and then crated for the night.
> 
> Just a thought.


Ehh... Gracie's girl sounds smart. Sasha has figured out how to open up the baby gate... ON to the next test of a high drive puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are different types and sizes of baby gates.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

JulieBays said:


> Ehh... Gracie's girl sounds smart. Sasha has figured out how to open up the baby gate... ON to the next test of a high drive puppy.


 mine was opening doors and tops of plastic bottles!


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

Concerning the crate time, I'm now feeling guilty because I have to crate my pup as well. What do people do who work full time? I wouldn't trust my 8 month old to be out and about while I'm not home so I crate him while I'm at work. I was lucky enough to be at home the first 3 months we had him but since then I've had a full time job. He's in his crate from 8:30 to 4:30 with an hour break when I come home for lunch. After work I make sure the rest of the time is spent playing and training. Does this seem too much? I feel bad, but I since I have to work I don't know what else I can do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pups will adjust, but they won't build muscle tone when crated more than 6-8 hours per day. IMO, some of the 'bad' behaviors occur due to too much crate time. They get out of the crate and go nuts with the freedom. I also think that goes with leashing/tethering. If a pup is constantly on a line, they will take off when finally free. If they are loose during training sessions or when out in the yard, the urge to take off when unclipped is not even in their realm.

My pup was allowed to be uncrated at 7 months, and wasn't destructive at all. I started night time freedom and he proved himself(so did Onyx) to not chew or destroy.
I took him to work with me, left him in the vehicle(crated/cool spring weather) and gave him many short breaks/training/exercise sessions during the day. 
It does depend on the dog, of course, mine seem to have pretty good off switches. 
I always provided safe fresh knucklebone type chews when the pups were crated and played lots of tug(when they weren't full blown teething).


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

jennyp said:


> Concerning the crate time, I'm now feeling guilty because I have to crate my pup as well. What do people do who work full time? I wouldn't trust my 8 month old to be out and about while I'm not home so I crate him while I'm at work. I was lucky enough to be at home the first 3 months we had him but since then I've had a full time job. He's in his crate from 8:30 to 4:30 with an hour break when I come home for lunch. After work I make sure the rest of the time is spent playing and training. Does this seem too much? I feel bad, but I since I have to work I don't know what else I can do.


The hour for lunch is huge. So he gets 3.5 hours morning and afternoon. If he were loose he would probably just shut down and lie around anyway so you are doing him no harm. If he didn't shut down, who's to say how much mischief he would get into. It's not as though he is going to do chores or watch TV while you are out. He's just a dog.
Does his crate look out through a window or something like that? That might make things a little better for him. My dog is in an enclosed breeze way so she can look out the front window or back slider and bark at anything that moves. But she doesn't, she just lays there and waits for someone to show up and make her day.


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> The hour for lunch is huge. So he gets 3.5 hours morning and afternoon. If he were loose he would probably just shut down and lie around anyway so you are doing him no harm. If he didn't shut down, who's to say how much mischief he would get into. It's not as though he is going to do chores or watch TV while you are out. He's just a dog.
> Does his crate look out through a window or something like that? That might make things a little better for him. My dog is in an enclosed breeze way so she can look out the front window or back slider and bark at anything that moves. But she doesn't, she just lays there and waits for someone to show up and make her day.


Thanks, that made me feel better. Yes, he's near two big windows which we keep open. Also have safe toys in the crate with him. Ok, I guess it's not too bad then


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

MicheleMarie said:


> mine was opening doors and tops of plastic bottles!



Heh! That's what we are all dealing with. Poor Gracie's girl. The sis is trying and I understand how hard it could/can be.

What we could do is try to figure out what Gracie's girl can do to help this dog. Hmm.. She has to study. I have a high PREY drive pup. There is no way I could have studied around her. NO WAY. She needs attention from me a lot. She needs a job at 4 months old. It sounds weird but it's true. She is so happy when she is doing something for mom. Maybe the OP needs to focus on engagement more. MRL is usually right on this. :smirk: Engagement might be the key that unlocks this pup's ability. I'm just repeating what I have learned here.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

What I am trying to say which might not be clear is this: Engage your pup the few hours that you have the time. Really engage them and make them your world. They seem to know the difference. Anyway, I am just dealing with Sasha so I might be wrong but if you do have a high drive pup then it's imperative that they trust you. They are smart and aren't going to trust you if you don't prove it to them. You prove it through training and engagement. I am an total convert to this.


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