# Titles???!M



## cliffson1

Just wanted to say that I'm definitely not anti titles in any venue for the GS. I think titles help dogs develop to their potential and strengthen the understanding and love between dog and owner. I also think that many many many years ago certain breed titles ( SCH/HGH ) were great tools for acquiring breeding stock and developing breed knowledge for owners that wanted to become breeders. No, I am not against titles at all, but I also know that titles can no longer serve as a breeding endorsement like in years past. Is it better than nothing?.....probably........but the bar is so low now that even with titles scores of dogs are still lacking in breed type and breed reliability. So we must look deeper than titles to assess dogs and breeders today.


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## DaniFani

This has been discussed extensively in the past two weeks. Perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads. A few are still active.


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## cliffson1

OK...thx!


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## RocketDog

DaniFani said:


> This has been discussed extensively in the past two weeks. Perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads. A few are still active.


Perhaps you should get to know who's who on the board a bit better since you're new and then you might understand the reason for certain threads being started.


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## llombardo

cliffson1 said:


> So we must look deeper than titles to assess dogs and breeders today.


 
I agree with this 100%. While titles can help determine certain things, real every day life and situations can determine more, IMO.


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## Lilie

RocketDog said:


> Perhaps you should get to know who's who on the board a bit better since you're new and then you might understand the reason for certain threads being started.


True to a point. But the same folks will reply and the same ole' discussion will be had.


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## RocketDog

But new people might read and benefit; not everyone is on the board every day, and lots of threads get missed. I doubt--could be wrong-- that poster was thinking along those lines of yours.


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## martemchik

The issue with this discussion/topic is that someone like cliff, carmen, robin, chris, or person that has been in the breed for 30+ years, has a lot of experience and knowledge about pedigrees and dogs that 99% of us have never heard of. They understand what kinds of drives they want out of their dogs and what they want to see out of those puppies. That's a lot of trust to put into a breeder who the average puppy buyer has contact with mostly during the transaction and then probably never again.

All a title is, is verifiable evidence that the breeder did what the breeder claims to have done. And that the dog with the title did what was required of it that one time to receive the title (in the case of AKC the dog did it 3 times). The majority of us (me included) don't understand what we want out of a dog like the people I mentioned earlier.

I have some people like them at my club...the breeder I will use for my next dog is at my club and I've had enough conversations and training sessions with them to understand their philosophy, what they want to achieve, and how their goals line up with mine. If I was not at a club, and just had a pet GSD, none of that would matter. My goal would be, a well behaved, social dog. Titles would mean squat (they didn't mean anything to me except a higher price tag on a puppy 3 years ago when I decided to get a GSD).

I don't know...I guess I don't get it...this forum pushes people to get titled dogs. To not solely trust the breeders "word" that their dogs are everything they say they are and more. But then we get people like cliff who make you think otherwise. And make you think that you should look at breeders that might be doing something right although they aren't titling. Problem is...you have to develop a much higher level of trust with those breeders. Which takes much longer than what the average puppy buyer is willing to put into the transaction.

Like cliff said...we have to look deeper to assess the dogs and breeders today. That means joining a club, learning about the breed, seeing 100s of different dogs work, and realizing which breeder YOU agree with. And then we have to hope that each one of us agrees with the standard and the ground work that was laid out when the breed was started. But even with the breeders we have on this forum...not saying any of them are right/wrong...have varying ideas of what the breed standard is and what to expect from the dogs they produce.


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## Jack's Dad

DaniFani said:


> This has been discussed extensively in the past two weeks. Perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads. A few are still active.


Yeah Cliff, you might learn something.

Or you could try the ( Show me your hunk,three legged sables wearing a bandana threads) I've found those to be helpful.


Lilie quote:True to a point. But the same folks will reply and the same ole' discussion will be had.

Which topics does that not happen on. It's going on right now with vaccines.
Then it will be spay/neuter or BYBs. 

Like Rocket Dog said it's mostly for new people.

I would hope new people would consider what they want from this breed and not just whether to use a prong or a halti.


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## RocketDog

Well, and still for those of us not shiny-new. 

Spokane is a big county-- over half million people, but it isn't that "close" to clubs or competitions. You have to travel over the Cascades to the west side of the state for any type of venue. Or go to Oregon around the Portland area. Which is feasible but these are 4+ hour trips each way;, Portland is six on good day, complete with dangerous passes in the wintertime. Of course it's feasible and doable and there are plenty of people on this board who go that far to train and compete. But for those of us who work 60+ hours a week and have three teenagers (Obviously am referring to myself here ) it's not really that feasible. I have learned more on this board then I would've just sitting around doing nothing. And I still learn more every time I read these discussions; it might only be one sentence but suddenly something is clear to me. 

I love reading them.


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## Sunflowers

cliffson1 said:


> ok...thx!


lol


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## Gwenhwyfair

Best Post!!

I notice the showline breeders on the board have pretty much stayed out of these threads.....

I'm not a breeder, have no control over this, am a member of the 99% and in the same boat as you. 

So I have my rescued goober dog and my HD+ showline and that's life. *sigh* 












martemchik said:


> The issue with this discussion/topic is that someone like cliff, carmen, robin, chris, or person that has been in the breed for 30+ years, has a lot of experience and knowledge about pedigrees and dogs that 99% of us have never heard of. They understand what kinds of drives they want out of their dogs and what they want to see out of those puppies. That's a lot of trust to put into a breeder who the average puppy buyer has contact with mostly during the transaction and then probably never again.
> 
> All a title is, is verifiable evidence that the breeder did what the breeder claims to have done. And that the dog with the title did what was required of it that one time to receive the title (in the case of AKC the dog did it 3 times). The majority of us (me included) don't understand what we want out of a dog like the people I mentioned earlier.
> 
> I have some people like them at my club...the breeder I will use for my next dog is at my club and I've had enough conversations and training sessions with them to understand their philosophy, what they want to achieve, and how their goals line up with mine. If I was not at a club, and just had a pet GSD, none of that would matter. My goal would be, a well behaved, social dog. Titles would mean squat (they didn't mean anything to me except a higher price tag on a puppy 3 years ago when I decided to get a GSD).
> 
> I don't know...I guess I don't get it...this forum pushes people to get titled dogs. To not solely trust the breeders "word" that their dogs are everything they say they are and more. But then we get people like cliff who make you think otherwise. And make you think that you should look at breeders that might be doing something right although they aren't titling. Problem is...you have to develop a much higher level of trust with those breeders. Which takes much longer than what the average puppy buyer is willing to put into the transaction.
> 
> Like cliff said...we have to look deeper to assess the dogs and breeders today. That means joining a club, learning about the breed, seeing 100s of different dogs work, and realizing which breeder YOU agree with. And then we have to hope that each one of us agrees with the standard and the ground work that was laid out when the breed was started. But even with the breeders we have on this forum...not saying any of them are right/wrong...have varying ideas of what the breed standard is and what to expect from the dogs they produce.


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## cliffson1

I agree with those that think that some of these topics are redundant, and I know they irritate some people that see things differently, and this is why I have made a conscious effort to limit my discussion on the board. Some things I will bring up once a year FOR the benefit of newer people. But when it comes to puppie, and training, and most of breeding topics anymore, I know for myself I have stopped posting because it does get tiresome. Still, there are many newbies that reach out to the Chris, Carmen's, Sues, Lees, Tim McConnel's and many others to often refute some of the things that are fed to people in the open forum. At the end of the day, people will see for themselves in open society if the ring of truth and credibility is attached to what is said on these forums.....and hopefully it assist someone in getting a good dog and not have to post in the problems section of the forum.


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## Gwenhwyfair

both of mine are rescues.


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## Andaka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Best Post!!
> 
> I notice the showline breeders on the board have pretty much stayed out of these threads.....
> 
> I'm not a breeder, have no control over this, am a member of the 99% and in the same boat as you.


Well, I am the worst kind of show breeder -- American Show Lines. Yes, I am aware of their faults, and also of their strengths. I love the look of a moderate ASL dog herding sheep, jumping in agility, or doing obedience. 

They don't have the fight or the drive of most WL dogs. But they have plenty for me. Enough for most dog sports. Are they perfect, no. Would I trade them for a WL, no.


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## GSDElsa

Well, in DaniFani's defense, Cliff did just start a similar thread yesterday. Cliff's my bud, but no reason to chastise someone for pointing a poster to a simlar thread.


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## Jack's Dad

I forgot to watch for everyone's possible sensitivities.

DaniFani. I meant no offense to you. It just struck me funny because Cliff has many years of experience with the GSD breed. He also had posted in the threads you referenced.

I should have said so and posted many smilies.

My apologies.


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## RocketDog

Sigh. 

I've noticed that you seem to have taken a dislike to my posts. I don't really care actually other than the fact that I don't see any chastising anywhere. If someone can't say what they want to say on this board what good is it? 

I saw the reason Cliff started this thread. All I'm saying is that "chastising" someone else for starting a thread isn't "called for" either.

Andy snuck in there between posts. This was meant for GSDElsa.


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## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> Sigh.
> 
> I've noticed that you seem to have taken a dislike to my posts. I don't really care actually other than the fact that I don't see any chastising anywhere. If someone can't say what they want to say on this board what good is it?
> 
> I saw the reason Cliff started this thread. All I'm saying is that "chastising" someone else for starting a thread isn't "called for" either.
> 
> Andy snuck in there between posts. This was meant for GSDElsa.


I guess we are both guilty.


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## RocketDog

I swear, no one can voice any different opinion or any dislike or anything that might be deemed disagreeable in anyway on this board anymore. 

This is not the only forum I am a member of. Nor is it my first year on a forum. Sometimes, you need to sit back and learn the board before you start telling other posters what to do. Otherwise it might come across a bit like someone who has just bought their first racing bike giving advice to Lance Armstrong on how to ride one. 

And just for you, Andy:


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## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> I swear, no one can voice any different opinion or any dislike or anything that might be deemed disagreeable in anyway on this board anymore.
> 
> This is not the only forum I am a member of. Nor is it my first year on a forum. Sometimes, you need to sit back and learn the board before you start telling other posters what to do. Otherwise it might come across like someone who has just bought their first racing bike giving advice to Lance Armstrong on how to ride one.
> 
> And just for you, Andy:



Or try to teach Lance a good method of doping.


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## RocketDog

Lmao. 

Although he could certainly teach the master class on how to avoid being caught for years and years...


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## GSDElsa

RocketDog said:


> Sigh.
> 
> I've noticed that you seem to have taken a dislike to my posts. I don't really care actually other than the fact that I don't see any chastising anywhere. If someone can't say what they want to say on this board what good is it?
> .


Um, I have no clue who you are and have no idea the last time I responded or even noticed one of your posts. I think you think too much about the people on internet forums.

Andy I didn't even notice your post btw.

Interesting you don't take your own advice.

But anyhow, back on topic.


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## RocketDog

GSDElsa said:


> Um, I have no clue who you are and have no idea the last time I responded or even noticed one of your posts. I think you think too much about the people on internet forums.
> 
> Andy I didn't even notice your post btw.
> 
> Interesting you don't take your own advice.
> 
> But anyhow, back on topic.



Mmmkay. 

Heh.


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## DaniFani

RocketDog said:


> Perhaps you should get to know who's who on the board a bit better since you're new and then you might understand the reason for certain threads being started.


Oh, I've been around long enough to know Cliff is a breeder....I was trying to nicely say, "Do we really need to talk about this again?"....guess next time I'll just say it....


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## DaniFani

RocketDog said:


> But new people might read and benefit; not everyone is on the board every day, and lots of threads get missed. I doubt--could be wrong-- that poster was thinking along those lines of yours.


I guess I just don't see the point in starting a whole other thread...this was discussed, at length, days ago. I know Cliff saw the thread...why not comment on the thread already going instead of starting a brand new one? That was my point.


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## RocketDog

Unlike some on here, I do actually try to take the time to get a feel for who people are; why they're posting, what they're getting at. I am not so self-absorbed I just post a comment and then walk off, happy that I've left a little fairy dust behind me. 

Cliff started this thread (I'm guessing) in response to his other that he also started.


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## onyx'girl

It's his annual reminder....and we should all take heed.


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## DaniFani

Hey,

Get ready for itsy bitsy rant 

I love this forum, the good, the bad, and the ugly  There seem to be a handful of people on here who really know their stuff (Cliff, Carm, etc) and I appreciate very much their input on all topics GSD. Yeah, I'm a noob, yeah this is my first GSD (not counting childhood ones), and yeah I am learning as I go. Do I need these things pointed out every time I have an opinion, lol, no. I have no interest in breeding, but I have become heavily involved in Sch and enjoy all things dogs sport (also doing carting and rally with my Cardigan Corgi). 

Sometimes I don't always feel welcome in certain "buddy buddy" threads. Or, when I do have an opinion I get scoffed at and told maybe I should sit back and let the big boys talk lol. I really don't care though, there don't seem to be a lot of young people in dog sport, titling, or interested in responsible breeding (I am 25) and I would think the older generations would be excited to pass down knowledge and get us "youngens" excited about working and titling our dogs, getting to know the breed, and doing it all responsibly, ethically, and overall bettering the breed. Whether it be by owning/training a dog that can change some of it's negative stereotypes, mentoring via a responsible breeder, etc.... 

In this thread I was simply pointing out that there were multiple *active* threads already concerning this subject. I know Cliff is an old time member, breeder, etc...I read his posts in the other threads too. Just didn't know why, exactly, we needed another thread, stating pretty much what seemed to be the conclusion in the other threads....Yes, titling is awesome, but should never be the sole thing used to select a dog, neither should color, conformation, or temperament. They all need to be looked at collectively and the dog, it's past generations, titles, and breeder ALL need to be taken into account.


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## qbchottu

GSDElsa and DaniFani: good points!

Remember that _everyone_ has an agenda and motivation - interesting how different folks choose to push their agendas accordingly


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## cliffson1

I DID not take offense at what Dani wrote.....really....you noobs take the reigns and carry on....doesn't bother me one iota....I'm trying to keep up with personal requests. Since people are made or compelled to read what I write, like I said I am cutting back drastically on my posts......I evidently slipped this time so you folks carry on and continue with the current topics that aren't redundant:wub:.


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## cliffson1

In response to Dani's post, I really don't see much buddy/buddy threads anymore, actually I see few substantive discussions anymore that bring out the heavyweights. So I think there is plenty of space these days for the warm and fuzzy posts.


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## misfits

Cliffson 1, Here's another point of view. I'm an old guy and when I found this forum several years ago, I was staggered by what I didn't know. I've had german shepherds my whole life, buy because of where I live, high level training and sports was non-existence.---before the internet---- So if you and the other " heavy hitters" started the same thread 5 days in a row I would still read them, Because I want to learn! I've never seen one of your threads I didn't learn something from. .... just saying.....


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## G-burg

My belief is.... It's not the titles that have screwed up the breed, it's the people! Just like everything else in life.. $$

Titles (and the training) do serve a purpose, if you're willing to listen to them.. As does everyday life with your dog, if you're willing to see..


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## cliffson1

@Misfits......I understand.....and truthfully, people like you are the primary reason I even post at all anymore .....take care!


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## lhczth

G-burg said:


> My belief is.... It's not the titles that have screwed up the breed, it's the people! Just like everything else in life.. $$
> 
> Titles (and the training) do serve a purpose, if you're willing to listen to them.. As does everyday life with your dog, if you're willing to see..


 
Leesa, :thumbup:


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## Gwenhwyfair

Showline vs Workingline and the subsets within each are a pretty well worn venue here. When I started posting here there was some pretty hefty showline bashing going on. Doesn't resolve anything.

One doesn't need to be a 'heavy weight' to quickly figure out the_ human drives_ involved in this are really the same, _on both sides_.

Reality is not a zero sum game, we just try to make it so.




cliffson1 said:


> In response to Dani's post, I really don't see much buddy/buddy threads anymore, actually I see few substantive discussions anymore that bring out the heavyweights. So I think there is plenty of space these days for the warm and fuzzy posts.


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## martemchik

To me...I like to see a title (any title) to show that the breeder is at least doing something with the dog and proving that the dog can do something. There's too many out there that don't do anything but breed, and to another extent there are those that just do conformation shows and don't even bother with a simple CD on their champions.

When I first joined, I had plenty of discussions with the "heavyweights" about why an AKC title isn't "breedworthy" but a Schutzhund title is. The answer I got...because an old man 100 years ago said so. And yes...the 3 phases part and blah blah blah about the courage test and drives that it shows. So I wondered why isn't it just as good if a dog has a UDX, TDX, and some other stuff as well...truth is...AKC shows/trials are much easier to find than Schutzhund. They are also much more available to the general public (no need to drive an hour or more to get to training). But still...my view point was destroyed and people went along with the "heavyweights."

Sad thing about this is that most people don't understand Schutzhund. Puppy buyers, could care less about Schutzhund...and we'd be lucky if they've even heard about it. I've talked with countless GSD owners that have never heard of the sport/breed test in the first place but have had GSDs for decades.

As a pet buyer...why do I care that the dog has shown it has the ability to bite, or track, I'm never going to do those things. Actually...I'd rather have a dog that doesn't bite at all as that is a liability I don't want to have. You're asking a lot out of regular people, that just want their Rin Tin Tin, to look into what "drive" means, to understand what kind of dog they're getting, what kind of caveats come with owning a working dog, and to do enough research and see enough dogs in their shopping process to support a breeder that is in line with what they're going to want out of a dog.

I really respect the opinions of those few "heavyweights," but sometimes I feel like they're taken as law instead of opinion. I've been ganged up on plenty of times by other members who seem to think its their job to "protect" the heavyweights and point out to everyone else who these people are. Don't take offense to this...their opinions to carry more weight than the opinions of others on this forum, but they are still just that...OPINIONS. I remember many instances where members that don't even know the "heavyweight" personally will respond to one of my posts with "Do you know who you're arguing with?" As if its a crime to challenge another human's opinion.


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## qbchottu

martemchik said:


> I really respect the opinions of those few "heavyweights," but sometimes I feel like they're taken as law instead of opinion. I've been ganged up on plenty of times by other members who seem to think its their job to "protect" the heavyweights and point out to everyone else who these people are. Don't take offense to this...their opinions to carry more weight than the opinions of others on this forum, but they are still just that...OPINIONS. I remember many instances where members that don't even know the "heavyweight" personally will respond to one of my posts with "Do you know who you're arguing with?" As if its a crime to challenge another human's opinion.


hahahah I have noticed this as well. So well said. It's worse than a clique in high school - almost comical how it works on here 
It matters more WHO said it rather than WHAT was said - too bad. Didn't realize online GSD forums had popularity contests as well!
To all those taking this content as gospel: PLEASE do your homework - read, research, find out for yourself. Be a skeptic! Formulate your own opinion based on your own roadwork...not what some strangers on online forums drone on about 
I also note the condescending attitude, feeling of inflated self-importance, and attitude of superiority - a disservice.

Someone asked: why don't other viewpoints chime in? Because we don't care to rehash the same argument over and over when it's so very obvious what the agenda of these posts are - so carry on. The ones that are out walking the walk aren't so interested in playing armchair quarterbacks by sitting on online forums talking the talk over and over and over and over.._._beating the same poor, dead horse over and over....



Gwenhwyfair said:


> One doesn't need to be a 'heavy weight' to quickly figure out the_ human drives_ involved in this are really the same, _on both sides_.
> 
> Reality is not a zero sum game, we just try to make it so.


:thumbup:


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## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Showline vs Workingline and the subsets within each are a pretty well worn venue here. When I started posting here there was some pretty hefty showline bashing going on. Doesn't resolve anything.
> 
> One doesn't need to be a 'heavy weight' to quickly figure out the_ human drives_ involved in this are really the same, _on both sides_.
> 
> Reality is not a zero sum game, we just try to make it so.



:thumbup:


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## cliffson1

I don't see the problem with heavyweights these days, so quit whining and carry the ball!


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## Lilie

martemchik said:


> Sad thing about this is that most people don't understand Schutzhund. Puppy buyers, could care less about Schutzhund...and we'd be lucky if they've even heard about it. I've talked with countless GSD owners that have never heard of the sport/breed test in the first place but have had GSDs for decades.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I disagree with the above. 10 years ago, I'd agree. But now with utube and the internet, I think people are more aware of the sport.


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## martemchik

I don't think the heavyweights are the problem anyways...and yes there has been a lot less of them recently.

I like these discussions...and I think being a heavyweight in the GSD world gives you more pull when it comes to breeding to untitled or possibly true working dogs. But if you're not well known, or known to have knowledge, people will question it. Especially without knowing that person for however long that you do have some ability to gauge their pedigree knowledge and be able to support their breeding goals/program.


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## martemchik

Lilie said:


> I disagree with the above. 10 years ago, I'd agree. But now with utube and the internet, I think people are more aware of the sport.


More people are aware...sure...that doesn't mean MOST are. And being aware doesn't mean you understand it. To someone that just watches youtube its just an awesome sport where dogs bite people.


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!! 

The fact of the matter is the free market is what drives this and you come from a LE background that most people do not. Hence the divergent views.

I read these posts and ponder how on earth ANY breed of dog can fulfill the expectation of so many different ideals.

I don't think Labs, or Goldens, even with the split between field dogs and show dogs have THIS MANY expectations put on them.

I come from a background (since 1976) of horses and having been there done that....all I can say is..good luck.




cliffson1 said:


> I don't see the problem with heavyweights these days, so quit whining and carry the ball!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes but would Robin or Andaka be considered a heavyweight?





martemchik said:


> I don't think the heavyweights are the problem anyways...and yes there has been a lot less of them recently.
> 
> I like these discussions...and I think being a heavyweight in the GSD world gives you more pull when it comes to breeding to untitled or possibly true working dogs. But if you're not well known, or known to have knowledge, people will question it. Especially without knowing that person for however long that you do have some ability to gauge their pedigree knowledge and be able to support their breeding goals/program.


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## cliffson1

I come from a LE background?..last I looked this is the BREEDING section of the forum.....first, I have bred litters, unlike many with the strongest opinions. Second, I have participated in much more than LE in this breed(key word being participated), to include showing dogs and sport dogs and breeding herding, pet, and sport dogs.....what perspective am I missing???? And I don't even believe in show and working lines....I believe in sound breeding practices......and lastly, I have often commented favorably about Huerta and Andaka! Now I do admit I get a little short when people post things that are flat out wrong, usually because they don't really know what they are talking about....like some of the above.....but I'm working on improving in these areas:growingtree:, but I promise to work harder or say less.


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## Jack's Dad

I have an interest and view about keeping the GSD a sane breed with a strong nerve base. One that could do actual work or be a safe and sane family companion.

So do some of the heavyweights. 

I don't understand why discussing these things is so upsetting to some.

Redundant threads are the norm on here.

What is a reputable breeder? To vaccinate or not. When to neuter or not.
Positive reinforcement vs correction, Cesar Milan, Puppies ears standing or not, vet medicine vs holistic, BYB's and I could go on and on.

I ignore threads I don't like or have heard too many times or simply don't interest me.

If hearing from lightweights or heavyweights about the breed and what some believe it should be, bothers you, don't read or participate.

There are many other topics to choose from.

Posts from a couple of you are judgmental to the degree you not only want to kill the messenger but the message.

When was the last time Vandal posted. 30 to 40 years of experience as a breeder, trainer, helper at international level. I want to hear from heavyweights like her.

They are disappearing and I understand why but we all lose when the heavyweights get sick of it all.


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## mycobraracr

I don't think this thread or the previous threads have anything to do with what background one comes from. Rather the fact that this breed was designed and created to be a utility dog capable of doing anything and now it's not. To find a dog like that is few and far between. Many people on here claim to have a dog that can do anything but until pushed and tried you really don't know. The fact is the breed isn't even a breed anymore. It is 15 breeds under the same name. It's ridiculous if you think about it.


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## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> I come from a LE background?..last I looked this is the BREEDING section of the forum.....first, I have bred litters, unlike many with the strongest opinions. Second, I have participated in much more than LE in this breed(key word being participated), to include showing dogs and sport dogs and breeding herding, pet, and sport dogs.....what perspective am I missing???? And I don't even believe in show and working lines....I believe in sound breeding practices......and lastly, I have often commented favorably about Huerta and Andaka! Now I do admit I get a little short when people post things that are flat out wrong, usually because they don't really know what they are talking about....like some of the above.....but I'm working on improving in these areas:growingtree:, but I promise to work harder or say less.


Don't say less! Lol...that's the last thing we need.

I think each one of us develops our own list of "heavyweights" and takes those opinions as more developed and with more knowledge behind them. I just get confused/pissed when others stand up for these heavyweights as if they were the law on dogs. I don't mind the person sticking up for their opinion or elaborating on it when it is challenged...but when others decide to challenge the person's decision to question the heavyweight...I have to laugh.

Not saying I don't trust the people on here...but it wouldn't be hard to catfish people. Sure it would take a good year or two of work to gain the trust of the forum regulars...but it could be done. (not saying that anyone on here does that...but it is the internet)


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## qbchottu

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes but would Robin or Andaka be considered a heavyweight?


Of course! Because they are friends/participants on the forum, they are given a free pass as well. How many discussion start with: Showlines are ruining the breed (oh except for Robin and Daphne). 

I like both these women - have dogs from Robin - but it's very amusing how this forum works. How people pick and choose based on their current agenda. If you know the folks pushing their agenda, you are given a free pass more or less.


----------



## Jack's Dad

qbchottu said:


> Of course! Because they are friends/participants on the forum, they are given a free pass as well. How many discussion start with: Showlines are ruining the breed (oh except for Robin and Daphne).
> 
> I like both these women - have dogs from Robin - but it's very amusing how this forum works. If you know the folks pushing their agenda, you are given a free pass more or less.


You have mentioned agenda several times. What is the agenda?


----------



## cliffson1

Andaka and Huerta have been given a pass by me for example because of two things, 1) I respect their knowledge and have said time and time again, I THINK that good dogs come from knowledgable breeders, 2) because they both have introduced genetics different than what they are known for in attempt to strengthen and maintain working traits which I often rant against....no agenda, no favorites, just acknowledgement of what they are doing should be a beacon to others. But again that's my perspective as a breeder or former breeder! Btw, I have championed Bullinger Shepherds repeatedly on many forum....last I checked they were show lines....it is insulting to me that people think I don't recognize good breeders in any of the "lines", but tell me this .....there is a lot that is not right with the breed or breeders......WHO should be the ones to point out faulty thinking??? Or should we just let the newbies learn from non breeders....Help me out here?


----------



## lhczth

Jack's Dad said:


> When was the last time Vandal posted. 30 to 40 years of experience as a breeder, trainer, helper at international level. I want to hear from heavyweights like her.


Jack's Dad,

Anne/Vandal is a very good and dear friend of mine whose opinion and knowledge I respect more than most people in this breed, BUT she was never a helper at the international level.  She competed at the WUSV, did trial helper work and most of all is a phenomenal training helper.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's human nature, it's called affinity bias and it's not always a bad thing.

But what you write is the truth and it comes off as being a bit of the ole two step.




qbchottu said:


> Of course! Because they are friends/participants on the forum, they are given a free pass as well. How many discussion start with: Showlines are ruining the breed (oh except for Robin and Daphne).
> 
> I like both these women - have dogs from Robin - but it's very amusing how this forum works. How people pick and choose based on their current agenda. If you know the folks pushing their agenda, you are given a free pass more or less.


----------



## qbchottu

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's human nature, it's called affinity bias and it's not always a bad thing.


Oh and by the way, I don't narrow it down to just Robin and Daphne - not fair to pick on them. ANY breeder and "heavy hitter" (LOL the inflated sense of self...! Narcissus is alive and well!!!) that participates in this forum is more or less treated with kid gloves whereas "outsiders" are vetted and ground into the mud when the wolves smell blood 

There are different rules depending on the person - amuses me to no end. I won't name names, but go through the vocal breeders on the forum and ask yourself if you did not know who they were, would you still feel the same about them?


----------



## lhczth

Cliff, while I agree with much of your above post, those buying our dogs at times can be the best judge of what we are doing. I would not tell people that just because they do not breed they should not have a voice when it comes to breeding. Just like there are many breeders who are doing a lot of harm and whose voices are not worthy hearing.

Time to run. Elena and Vala are waiting to go hiking.


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## Lilie

lhczth said:


> Cliff, while I agree with much of your above post, those buying our dogs at times can be the best judge of what we are doing. I would not tell people that just because they do not breed they should not have a voice when it comes to breeding. Just like there are many breeders who are doing a lot of harm and whose voices are not worthy hearing.
> 
> Time to run. Elena and Vala are waiting to go hiking.


:happyboogie::happyboogie: Best post I've seen in a LONG time!!!!!


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## Jack's Dad

lhczth said:


> Jack's Dad,
> 
> Anne/Vandal is a very good and dear friend of mine whose opinion and knowledge I respect more than most people in this breed, BUT she was never a helper at the international level.  She competed at the WUSV, did trial helper work and most of all is a phenomenal training helper.


Another oops.

Once again I stand corrected but what you said above is sufficient to the point I was making.


----------



## qbchottu

Oh and I also want to make a note about the thinly veiled marketing ploys that frequently make their rounds here. This forum is just as much an advertising tool to move wares as it is an educating and information tool.

To anyone new and just learning or even those that have been around here for eons: Take everything with a grain of salt - I hope that nobody here is taking the content posted here as undeniable fact and gospel. NONE of us have all the answers - I hope the dialogue can push others to think and find out for themselves. THIS is what I mean by agenda - everyone has one and is pushing it. Be careful to do your part to find your own truth...because when all your facts come from another, your reality will be clouded by another person's tunnel vision.

I for one welcome dissenting views to the "heavy hitters" (lol again)


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## robk

Its not this forum. Its the breed. Its called elitism and the breed is rank with it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I used to be on the anti-showline camp band wagon.

I was going to buy, for the first time in my life, a dog from a 'responsible' breeder and it was going to be a workingline dog because of what a lot of the 'heavyweights' here were posting.

Something to keep in mind....

Then I ran across Ilda who was, because of the conditions surrounding her life, going to be a gamble, I knew it when I got her.

Well, she has turned out to be an absolute blast to live with. She does engender many of the characteristics which make her more true to a GSD standard then does my Smitty (who may well be a mix). She's loyal, great alert dog, aloof but calm with strangers, fine around kids and when tested showed good defense and prey drive (I know, I know it was just SchH but it's something) She loves to be with me and do things with and ride shotgun with me when I run my rounds at night. Would she meet the bar of a 'real good police dog', no.

Still, by accident, she opened my mind to the fact that showline dogs have something to bring to the table, and to puppy buyers and that I should be open to what breeders like Robin and Andaka have to share of THEIR knowledge.

The best comments, in one of the SL vs WL threads was from a couple of people who are considered knowledgeable who said: "I've owned both and they both have their pros and cons the best way to get to know them is to own or be around both lines".

I still hope to get a working line dog someday and since I'm not a pedigree expert, nor really desire to be, I've been reading here and saving links. I have enough miles on me from the horse show world to sort out what's what in the world of breeders and picking the right dog for me. There are* no* guarantees in life.


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## cliffson1

@Lisa.....never said I'm always right...it really doesn't make a difference, what a person thinks about the messenger is natural, the important thing is the message. I respect you and your program, but I don't think that buyers are indicative of a knowledgable breeder....but two people comfortable in their knowledge can have differing opinions without it being offensive. I have two obedience sessions in 40 minutes....we can both agree on this aspect:wub:.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: 

A fair observation!






qbchottu said:


> Oh and by the way, I don't narrow it down to just Robin and Daphne - not fair to pick on them. ANY breeder and "heavy hitter" (LOL the inflated sense of self...! Narcissus is alive and well!!!) that participates in this forum is more or less treated with kid gloves whereas "outsiders" are vetted and ground into the mud when the wolves smell blood
> 
> There are different rules depending on the person - amuses me to no end. I won't name names, but go through the vocal breeders on the forum and ask yourself if you did not know who they were, would you still feel the same about them?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well....fwiw cliff....I saw a t-shirt the other day that I really liked and while I'm not perfect and have been engaging in this thread more then normal, I do try to adhere to the message:

Shutup
Focus
Train Harder!​ 

Can't go wrong with that.


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## martemchik

Problem is that there are some breeders that cater to the working market and think very highly of themselves for it. They also DO look down on anyone catering to the pet market. I've seen/read/heard it way too many times. And too many times I've heard...if you can't handle a working dog the way its meant to be...find another breed. Easier said than done.

I have $1000, I'll buy the dog that I want, and you should all be happy that I'll do my research and get the dog that fits my lifestyle instead of the one that is a police dog or a military dog and will drive me nuts within a year and I'll end up dumping it in a shelter. As wrong as I believe it is that the breed has been bred for the major pet market. It happens with every breed and to sit here and blame the majority of breeders and consumers seems extremely futile to me.


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## cliffson1

Sometimes treated with kid gloves is a sign of respect....and fortunately respect is usually earned from others of respect. I don't understand the agenda point at all, I have never tried selling dogs on this forum, I have been critical of all the lines in areas that they have become too extreme, IMO, I welcome people giving me examples of faulty reasoning or non factual information ( because then I learn and am corrected)....but if people feel this way in terms of an agenda....it is comforting in knowing that many feel like they have been helped and are appreciative.....as for others ....this is what democracy is all about....the cream always rises to the top.


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## qbchottu

Cliff: Curious to know - you have not bred dogs in awhile (if I understand correctly - correct me if I don't), but have you sold dogs related to your breeding program to people via this forum?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Meritocracy this is not.


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## mycobraracr

martemchik said:


> Problem is that there are some breeders that cater to the working market and think very highly of themselves for it. They also DO look down on anyone catering to the pet market. I've seen/read/heard it way too many times. And too many times I've heard...if you can't handle a working dog the way its meant to be...find another breed. Easier said than done.
> 
> I have $1000, I'll buy the dog that I want, and you should all be happy that I'll do my research and get the dog that fits my lifestyle instead of the one that is a police dog or a military dog and will drive me nuts within a year and I'll end up dumping it in a shelter. As wrong as I believe it is that the breed has been bred for the major pet market. It happens with every breed and to sit here and blame the majority of breeders and consumers seems extremely futile to me.


 
I don't understand this logic. So the breed suffers because people like the way a GSD looks but not the fact that it's a working dog. They don't know anything about the "true" characteristics of the breed so we breed dogs that cater to them? I like Harley's and the way look. I find them comfortable but I don't like the way they ride. So even though I have the money to buy one I don't. I go and find a motorcycle that fits my riding style. I DON"T try and create a Harley to fit my style. That would be uncharacteristic to Harley's and their brand.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yet Harleys are still a very popular brand of motorcycle. Free market gives you the choice to choose the motorcycle that fits your wants/needs the best.

Since dogs are no longer bred (as a whole) for their working ability because society no longer demands that the free market has created different 'brands' if you will of GSDs.

There still are dogs being bred that fit the criteria (as Tim said in the other thread) for working as police dogs.

So this circles back to another question that has been asked here often. Should different lines of GSDs be seperated into unique breeds?



mycobraracr said:


> I don't understand this logic. So the breed suffers because people like the way a GSD looks but not the fact that it's a working dog. They don't know anything about the "true" characteristics of the breed so we breed dogs that cater to them? I like Harley's and the way look. I find them comfortable but I don't like the way they ride. So even though I have the money to buy one I don't. I go and find a motorcycle that fits my riding style. I DON"T try and create a Harley to fit my style. That would be uncharacteristic to Harley's and their brand.


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## Jack's Dad

mycobraracr said:


> I don't understand this logic. So the breed suffers because people like the way a GSD looks but not the fact that it's a working dog. They don't know anything about the "true" characteristics of the breed so we breed dogs that cater to them? I like Harley's and the way look. I find them comfortable but I don't like the way they ride. So even though I have the money to buy one I don't. I go and find a motorcycle that fits my riding style. I DON"T try and create a Harley to fit my style. That would be uncharacteristic to Harley's and their brand.


2nd post in a row of yours I really liked.

Why call something a breed if it has many different versions.

Just a large dog with pointy ears will do.


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## martemchik

mycobraracr said:


> I don't understand this logic. So the breed suffers because people like the way a GSD looks but not the fact that it's a working dog. They don't know anything about the "true" characteristics of the breed so we breed dogs that cater to them? I like Harley's and the way look. I find them comfortable but I don't like the way they ride. So even though I have the money to buy one I don't. I go and find a motorcycle that fits my riding style. I DON"T try and create a Harley to fit my style. That would be uncharacteristic to Harley's and their brand.


I don't agree with it...but I understand it. People want a cool pet. They want Rin Tin Tin, they want the fearless house protector they see in movies, they want the dog that was on the mission to kill Bin Laden, they want the dog their local police man patrols with, ect ect.

It's the same reason I laugh at the posts of "why do people think my GSD is vicious and going to bite?" BECAUSE that's what our breed is known for!!! You're lying if "intimidation" or the prospect of a good protector isn't just a little of the reason you have a GSD.

Our breed is the 2nd most registered breed in the US...and that doesn't count all the BYB non-AKC and doesn't count any of you sport/import people that don't register with the AKC. I'm going to estimate (on the high side) that 5% of those dogs have seen a Schutzhund field (my dog is in the 95%). Actually probably 95% have never even seen any type of trial...thankfully mine has!


----------



## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Since dogs are no longer bred (as a whole) for their working ability because society no longer demands that the free market has created different 'brands' if you will of GSDs.


This is the crux of it all. For some reason many of you have not let go of the romantic notion of the breed being bred to just do work. Of the GSD herding all day, patrolling all day, looking for drugs all day, and not realizing that the majority of the dogs bred today get to lay on a couch all day.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. And would a really top notch patrol dog which will fight through being stabbed with a knife also be an excellent dog at herding?



martemchik said:


> This is the crux of it all. For some reason many of you have not let go of the romantic notion of the breed being bred to just do work. Of the GSD herding all day, patrolling all day, looking for drugs all day, and not realizing that the majority of the dogs bred today get to lay on a couch all day.


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## lhczth

martemchik said:


> This is the crux of it all. For some reason many of you have not let go of the romantic notion of the breed being bred to just do work. Of the GSD herding all day, patrolling all day, looking for drugs all day, and not realizing that the majority of the dogs bred today get to lay on a couch all day.


Yup and along the way we have watched the breed we love turned into a fear biting, booger barking, crippled, terrified spook. What a horrible injustice to what used to be a highly wanted utilitarian working dog. :teary:


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## cliffson1

@gbchotto.....I have not bred a litter since 2008. I have referred people to others both in this country and overseas to breeders or litters I have knowledge off. These people reach out to me or more often somebody tells them to reach out to me for whatever reason....I have tried to help people get the best dog possible, if they reach out to me, if I know of a good litter and somebody is LOOKING for something that is similar, I have tried to help. I don't have an agenda except to promulgate good solid dogs, and to help people. I don't need the money, I don't need the adoration, I don't clientele, I am not beholden to anyone on this board, and it really doesn't matter what any of the people on this board thinks of me....I am what I am, know what I know, earned what I got, and happen to be willing to share with others.....as for my detractors...lol....isn't that really their problem and their issues. 
My mother always said that when entertaining criticism, consider the source! When I tire of helping people I will get out of the breed....agenda....nah! More a straw some grasp to justify their feelings....hope this answers your question.


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## Gwenhwyfair

My family in Germany had GSDs. My uncle was a Schutzhund judge in Germany for many years (retired now). My Opa was involved in SchH. They had problems with dogs back then. There are stories about the mailman who got bit and cousins jumping the fence to get away from Hans when he was out in the back garden. I thought those were abberations but then this was back in the 1930s?

I have begun to wonder if we don't over romanticize the breed to a point. I read what these dogs are supposed to do, and do well, and think how could that be possible?





lhczth said:


> Yup and along the way we have watched the breed we love turned into a fear biting, booger barking, crippled, terrified spook. What a horrible injustice to what used to be a highly wanted utilitarian working dog. :teary:


----------



## martemchik

lhczth said:


> Yup and along the way we have watched the breed we love turned into a fear biting, booger barking, crippled, terrified spook. What a horrible injustice to what used to be a highly wanted utilitarian working dog. :teary:


Saddest thing is that no one has any control of it. It happens to any breed that becomes popular. And ours has been popular for a very long time. It's gone through so many ups and downs that anyone watching should be extremely nauseous.

But the fact remains...if the breed was a true working breed, and the only GSDs available were herding machines/patrol machines/service machines...I would not be WORTHY of owning such a dog according to what gets discussed on this forum and how much we've "ruined" the breed. And that to me is unacceptable. I'm your average American, there are somethings that I don't care to own which are being regulated at an extremely high rate right now, and there are people fighting for their "right" to own such things, and yet there are people out there that have no problem with telling me what kind of dog I CAN and CAN'T own just because they want it to be a certain way? Come on...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: Well said.




martemchik said:


> Saddest thing is that no one has any control of it. It happens to any breed that becomes popular. And ours has been popular for a very long time. It's gone through so many ups and downs that anyone watching should be extremely nauseous.
> 
> But the fact remains...if the breed was a true working breed, and the only GSDs available were herding machines/patrol machines/service machines...I would not be WORTHY of owning such a dog according to what gets discussed on this forum and how much we've "ruined" the breed. And that to me is unacceptable. I'm your average American, there are somethings that I don't care to own which are being regulated at an extremely high rate right now, and there are people fighting for their "right" to own such things, and yet there are people out there that have no problem with telling me what kind of dog I CAN and CAN'T own just because they want it to be a certain way? Come on...


----------



## cliffson1

@ Gwenhywfair.....YOU tell me WHY the police dog can't also be a good family dog? Litters that I have bred where one or two dogs have become police dogs, the others in the litter went to regular family homes....so tell me why the two must be separate? Tell me how this is inconsistent with the definition of the dog in the German Shepherd standard? Please school me instead of these shots at individuals....I'm interested in your take.


----------



## Ocean

There is a reason why the GSD is the national dog of Germany. In a nation that created the Rottie, Dobie, Great Dane, Boxer, Giant and Standard Schnauzer, Dachshund, etc. there was a time not too long ago when 80% of all registered puppies were GSDs.

It is a finely tuned genetically engineered animal with a large operating envelope but with smaller degrees of freedom in terms of getting it wrong. Just look at the aggression threads in this forum. Most American families that want a large dog I recommend to get a well bred Lab. I have seen aggressive Labs, even been bitten by one, but few that can do serious damage. 

I always say there are a lot of good GSDs out there but too few good enough GSD owners. Yes, a good GSD owner would not have their dog just laying on the couch all day. There are many BYBs and puppy mills that intentionally breed to that market because of the dollars but instead of getting a better Lab they end up with a worse dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

First of all I am NOT taking shots at individuals.

Secondly I asked that in the form of a question not a declarative statement.

Thirdly I'll explain why I think it's a fair question. Having come not from the dog world but the horse world it is a fair question to ask because you'll not see a Thoroughbred race horse being expected to cut cattle, they don't have the physical structure nor temperament for it. You don't see border collies being expected to do patrol work.


I notice YOU didn't just directly answer the question they can with examples of why, instead an ad hom dodge.





cliffson1 said:


> @ Gwenhywfair.....YOU tell me WHY the police dog can't also be a good family dog? Litters that I have bred where one or two dogs have become police dogs, the others in the litter went to regular family homes....so tell me why the two must be separate? Tell me how this is inconsistent with the definition of the dog in the German Shepherd standard? Please school me instead of these shots at individuals....I'm interested in your take.


----------



## GSDElsa

There are a lot of breeders who do not-so-thinly-veiled marketing on this forum, but Cliff is definitely not one of them. He rarely talks about the dogs he's bred/owned/sold.

Some other people, though...

I don't think it is out of the question that a police dog can also be a family dog ("do it all" so to speak). I think my dog is far less sporty than a lot bred today and he'd make a better police dog than SchH dog sometimes. He's pretty civil and suspicious when compared to your average GSD, but he also spends the nights snuggling on the couch with me. But I do think there are plenty of GSD's in general out there that you can't do that with. And I don't necessarily think EVERY single one in every single litter needs to be able to fufill that role, but I do think that they should be bred with the utility dog in mind.


----------



## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> @ Gwenhywfair.....YOU tell me WHY the police dog can't also be a good family dog? Litters that I have bred where one or two dogs have become police dogs, the others in the litter went to regular family homes....so tell me why the two must be separate? Tell me how this is inconsistent with the definition of the dog in the German Shepherd standard? Please school me instead of these shots at individuals....I'm interested in your take.


I'm not Gwenhywfair but I just want to throw this out there...in 2006 (most recent data I could find) there were 43000 GSDs registered by the AKC. Assuming a litter of 10 puppies, and your statistic of 2/10 being police and the others being pets...we would need 5375 litters of GSDs to fill the public demand for the dog and that would leave us with 10750 "police dogs." Not 100% sure...but that seems to be too much supply for the demand of police dogs in this country.

Maybe you're talking "in a perfect world" scenario and I'm just too realistic to discuss such a thing. But I do agree with you that it would be a wonderful world of GSD if it were like you described...2 dogs have the temperament to work, the rest go to pet homes.

I've also seen too many of those dogs out of working litters that do go to pet homes have way too much drive for the pet home as well...so I don't know how we balance all that out.


----------



## martemchik

GSDElsa said:


> There are a lot of breeders who do not-so-thinly-veiled marketing on this forum, but Cliff is definitely not one of them. He rarely talks about the dogs he's bred/owned/sold.
> 
> Some other people, though...


I actually had no idea Cliff bred before he said it in this thread. I knew about his training ability and LE days and I had an inkling he's done some studding. But I didn't know he bred.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I thought he was responding to my remark about excellent police k9 and herding....

Still, I agree with your observations about being realistic.



martemchik said:


> I'm not Gwenhywfair but I just want to throw this out there...in 2006 (most recent data I could find) there were 43000 GSDs registered by the AKC. Assuming a litter of 10 puppies, and your statistic of 2/10 being police and the others being pets...we would need 5375 litters of GSDs to fill the public demand for the dog and that would leave us with 10750 "police dogs." Not 100% sure...but that seems to be too much supply for the demand of police dogs in this country.
> 
> Maybe you're talking "in a perfect world" scenario and I'm just too realistic to discuss such a thing. But I do agree with you that it would be a wonderful world of GSD if it were like you described...2 dogs have the temperament to work, the rest go to pet homes.
> 
> I've also seen too many of those dogs out of working litters that do go to pet homes have way too much drive for the pet home as well...so I don't know how we balance all that out.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I get the whole market forces thing, I've talked about its influence in other threads. 

Its not about GSDs doing actual work. Only a small minority do that now.
If you destroy the basic character of the breed then to me you can call it a GSD and it's heritage might be but it's not. 

You can create almost any kind of dog in GSD clothing.

If the market is to be the end all then there should be splits recognized.

Showline, Working, Pet and anything else people want to breed for.

Just call them what they are so people know what they are buying.

Why do people still not realize that working line dogs are not all psyco dogs who can not stand still. Most of the time my two are relaxing in various places around the house.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Just another thought. The difference between a dog bred purposely to be a mellow pet and a high energy high drive sport dog can be tremendous.

It's not fair to new people buying to lump those two under the general designation of GSD. 

They truly can be like two different breeds.


----------



## Andaka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes but would Robin or Andaka be considered a heavyweight?


Did someone just call me fat???


----------



## Andaka

cliffson1 said:


> Andaka and Huerta have been given a pass by me for example because of two things, 1) I respect their knowledge and have said time and time again, I THINK that good dogs come from knowledgable breeders, 2) because they both have introduced genetics different than what they are known for in attempt to strengthen and maintain working traits which I often rant against....no agenda, no favorites, just acknowledgement of what they are doing should be a beacon to others. But again that's my perspective as a breeder or former breeder! Btw, I have championed Bullinger Shepherds repeatedly on many forum....last I checked they were show lines....it is insulting to me that people think I don't recognize good breeders in any of the "lines", but tell me this .....there is a lot that is not right with the breed or breeders......WHO should be the ones to point out faulty thinking??? Or should we just let the newbies learn from non breeders....Help me out here?


Thanks Cliff.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!! No! Good sense of humor and the patience to put up with threads like this....

YES! 



Andaka said:


> Did someone just call me fat???


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

ahem...now back to the topic at hand. I am of the Asimov school of logic in that I'll believe anything as long as there is sufficient evidence to support the assertion.

Exhibit A, Please note which dog is wearing the Superman Cape.


----------



## cliffson1

@Gwenhwyfair,....I guess the difference in us is I would seek you out for information on horses instead of challenging your statements or experiences with qtrhorses or thoroughbreds.....and maybe that's just a difference of perspective. I've always taught my students in the breed that when you really get good, you are able to recognize who is who and which dog is which dog. I'm certain you can do that with horses! 
Regardless, there are many people who have learned a lot about this breed, and how not to get snookered by fancy website advertisement because of these threads that go past saying every German Shepherd is fine. As a steward of the breed, I feel more of an obligation to them than I do to those that tire of subject matter but cannot stop from engaging. 
I wonder why some of these people who think everything is great, aren't on the training and puppy sections explaining to distressed people why they have the fear biter, hyperactive, insecure, shy puppy, when the breeder and advertising guaranteed they were great. I feel some people have come to breeding section and learned enough to avoid this....and for that it is worth it receiving the disdain of those who see things through rosé colored glasses.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Cliff,

I did try to teach people about horses but it all boiled down to many factors. There are bomb proof quarter horses and their are spooky quarterhorses. Some people cared more about 'pretty' (you can't ride pretty) then ride-ability.

Genetics is genetics and the influences that affect horses are the same *macro* influences that affect dogs now a days.

The question is; is this good or bad in totality?

Some breeds have become extinct. After the industrial revolution horse populations plummetted. 

You know what kept the breeds going? Sports, people with leisure time and money who exhibited or participated in sports. Originally dressage training and the dressage horse were meant as war mounts. Now those horses are no longer used in war and Dressage is purely sport.

Really what this boils down to is a 'branding' war. Everyone wants to 'own' the name of 'Real German Shepherd Dog', even the people who breed the 'big old fashioned' dogs.

Personally I would be fine with a split and unique registeries.

Just as racing Quarterhorses which are crossbred with TBs to race have what is called 'Appendix' in their registration.

FWIW I tried to engage you in humor (like the comment about training) and I did not take anything personally. I hope you feel the same.





cliffson1 said:


> @Gwenhwyfair,....I guess the difference in us is I would seek you out for information on horses instead of challenging your statements or experiences with qtrhorses or thoroughbreds.....and maybe that's just a difference of perspective. I've always taught my students in the breed that when you really get good, you are able to recognize who is who and which dog is which dog. I'm certain you can do that with horses!
> Regardless, there are many people who have learned a lot about this breed, and how not to get snookered by fancy website advertisement because of these threads that go past saying every German Shepherd is fine. As a steward of the breed, I feel more of an obligation to them than I do to those that tire of subject matter but cannot stop from engaging.
> I wonder why some of these people who think everything is great, aren't on the training and puppy sections explaining to distressed people why they have the fear biter, hyperactive, insecure, shy puppy, when the breeder and advertising guaranteed they were great. I feel some people have come to breeding section and learned enough to avoid this....and for that it is worth it receiving the disdain of those who see things through rosé colored glasses.


----------



## DaniFani

cliffson1 said:


> @Gwenhwyfair,....I guess the difference in us is I would seek you out for information on horses instead of challenging your statements or experiences with qtrhorses or thoroughbreds.....and maybe that's just a difference of perspective. I've always taught my students in the breed that when you really get good, you are able to recognize who is who and which dog is which dog. I'm certain you can do that with horses!
> Regardless, there are many people who have learned a lot about this breed, and how not to get snookered by fancy website advertisement because of these threads that go past saying every German Shepherd is fine. As a steward of the breed, I feel more of an obligation to them than I do to those that tire of subject matter but cannot stop from engaging.
> I wonder why some of these people who think everything is great, aren't on the training and puppy sections explaining to distressed people why they have the fear biter, hyperactive, insecure, shy puppy, when the breeder and advertising guaranteed they were great. I feel some people have come to breeding section and learned enough to avoid this....and for that it is worth it receiving the disdain of those who see things through rosé colored glasses.


Cliff, 

I hope you didn't interpret my initial comment as "stop talking/commenting." Yes my later comment was a bit snippy, because I was being told, "do you know who you're talking to", blah blah. The point of my initial post was to try and condense this conversation to one thread, I find it helpful to not have to switch between several active threads, all on the same subject. Each thread had it's good points, and interesting perspectives, it's just nice when it's all in one location, I know, I am an idealist dreamer lol. 

But, please continue to offer your thoughts on things, I think they add a lot. And I also am very appreciative when something is being discussed that requires some opinions from the other side of the spectrum. Noobs like me need to hear all kinds of opinions, and we also need to question all those opinions, not rudely, or condescendingly, just in a way that clarifies and gathers information. When other posters come on with their sarcastic, you should go check out who you're talking to-attitude, it detracts from whatever the topic is being discussed.

And just for further clarity, I had no qualms with the subject matter that began this thread, only suggested (I thought as non-confrontational as possible), that it all be kept to the already active threads. This way no points were missed and the people actively interested in and currently discussing said topic, would get the information. Thats all, no offense (to Cliff) meant


----------



## sparra

cliffson1 said:


> @ Gwenhywfair.....YOU tell me WHY the police dog can't also be a good family dog? Litters that I have bred where one or two dogs have become police dogs, the others in the litter went to regular family homes....so tell me why the two must be separate? Tell me how this is inconsistent with the definition of the dog in the German Shepherd standard? Please school me instead of these shots at individuals....I'm interested in your take.


My dog is 1 of a litter of 4.....2 went to pet homes and the other 2 went to the police force.....I am thinking that the same qualities that make Luther our wonderful pet are the same qualities that make his siblings worthy candidates for our police force....but I am no expert....


----------



## cliffson1

Nothing here is personal folks, I consider myself a steward of the breed( and I don't mean that from an elitest view), and I feel a responsibility to support the description of the dog in the breed standard....no more, no less. Many people and breeders have deviated from the standard in what they believe and breed. It's not Cliff's standard, it's the German Shepherd standard! But when I see people post stuff that is inconsistent with the standard, I call them on it. Most often it is personal likes, or practices that lead away from the standard. People get offended like I'm imposing my beliefs....Nooooooo..I'm just trying to help people continue to see the dog in the encyclopedia. People take my posts personal, some show people think I'm anti show, some sport people think I'm anti drive, some people think I think every dog should be a police dog....lol, I value a seeing-eye GS as much as I do a police GS. How does that grab ya! Because both dogs fit into the standard for this breed, and breeders should never lose sight of those dimensions in their breeding....Per The Standard!, not Cliff's say so. 
So no I don't take it personal, but when it comes to breeding, all dogs shouldn't be bred, most owners need to learn before they breed, and the more substance we discuss....the better prepared new breeders will be. If that makes me have an agenda....big smile.....you're right!
I'll conclude on that note ....TC.


----------



## martemchik

sparra said:


> My dog is 1 of a litter of 4.....2 went to pet homes and the other 2 went to the police force.....I am thinking that the same qualities that make Luther our wonderful pet are the same qualities that make his siblings worthy candidates for our police force....but I am no expert....


I'm not doubting your story...but I've heard a story from a "mixed breed" owner who had a GSD. He told me the story of how his dog is actually a GSD mixed with Czech Border Patrol Dog (which is pohranizni straze kennel of GSD) and that the 9 siblings went to work in Guantanamo and he got lucky enough to have the lone dog that went to a civilian home. Breeder was able to feed him a great line of BS in order to sell him a dog that wasn't registered for some reason or another. But the guy paid a lot of money for a grade A story lol.

I've seen enough dogs over the past 2 years (and have owned a working line as my first dog ever) and I can tell you that no...most of the people I know that own GSDs would not be able to handle a working line. Even a working line that is the bottom of the barrel drive in a liter where some dogs end up as police dogs. The idea of a dog needing to do stuff...needing some sort of job...is alien to the majority of the population, they want a dog that lies on the couch, never gets excited, and just goes with the flow. So sorry...I don't see that in my dog...he gets stir crazy after 3 days of not doing obedience or agility work, or getting a nice amount of walking in. Or an extended fetch/tug session. I would not wish my dog on 95% of the GSD owners I know.


----------



## RocketDog

DaniFani said:


> Cliff,
> 
> I hope you didn't interpret my initial comment as "stop talking/commenting." Yes my later comment was a bit snippy, because I was being told, "do you know who you're talking to", blah blah. *The point of my initial post was to try and condense this conversation to one thread, I find it helpful to not have to switch between several active threads, all on the same subject.* Each thread had it's good points, and interesting perspectives, it's just nice when it's all in one location, I know, I am an idealist dreamer lol.
> 
> But, please continue to offer your thoughts on things, I think they add a lot. And I also am very appreciative when something is being discussed that requires some opinions from the other side of the spectrum. Noobs like me need to hear all kinds of opinions, and we also need to question all those opinions, not rudely, or condescendingly, just in a way that clarifies and gathers information. When other posters come on with their sarcastic, you should go check out who you're talking to-attitude, it detracts from whatever the topic is being discussed.
> 
> And just for further clarity, I had no qualms with the subject matter that began this thread, only suggested (I thought as non-confrontational as possible), that it all be kept to the already active threads. This way no points were missed and the people actively interested in and currently discussing said topic, would get the information. Thats all, no offense (to Cliff) meant


Obviously you're referring to me. The thing is, your initial post, DID sound like you were saying exactly that. Like you did NOT know who or why the OP started the thread. If you only wanted to condense threads, why say "perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads" instead of "can we condense these threads, I rather dislike switching back and forth". Two different meanings. One says, go read, the other says lets discuss in one place. I wasn't being any more 'sarcastic' than you. Own what you post is all. 




martemchik said:


> I'm not doubting your story...but I've heard a story from a "mixed breed" owner who had a GSD. He told me the story of how his dog is actually a GSD mixed with Czech Border Patrol Dog (which is pohranizni straze kennel of GSD) and that the 9 siblings went to work in Guantanamo and he got lucky enough to have the lone dog that went to a civilian home. Breeder was able to feed him a great line of BS in order to sell him a dog that wasn't registered for some reason or another. But the guy paid a lot of money for a grade A story lol.
> 
> *I've seen enough dogs over the past 2 years (and have owned a working line as my first dog ever) and I can tell you that no...most of the people I know that own GSDs would not be able to handle a working line. Even a working line that is the bottom of the barrel drive in a liter where some dogs end up as police dogs. The idea of a dog needing to do stuff...needing some sort of job...is alien to the majority of the population, they want a dog that lies on the couch, never gets excited, and just goes with the flow. So sorry...I don't see that in my dog...he gets stir crazy after 3 days of not doing obedience or agility work, or getting a nice amount of walking in. Or an extended fetch/tug session. I would not wish my dog on 95% of the GSD owners I know.*


And I can tell you that working lines are not the be all, end all. My WGSL dog is excellent in the house. He is trustworthy alone outside of a crate at 22 months (and has been for a long time), he will settle and relax even if he doesn't want to if I ask him to. However, he is far from a "couch" dog. Far. This does not mean he can not "go with the flow" though--he does what I ask of him. He also can "not even go three days" without physical AND mental stimulation, and walks don't really cut it for him, unless they are a walk requiring mental effort. I hike him, I work obedience and trick training, and he runs several days a week with me. (In fact, I have been doing quite a bit of speedwork and have not taken him, since I'm doing sprint repeats and do I get the stink-eye when I get home.) I take him with me when I am doing other activities, to train his behavior in different places. He spent the day at my parents house while my family did their spring clean up--unfenced, strange neighborhood, lawn mowers, blowers, trimmers, raking. He spends the day with us while we are using bobcats and 4 wheelers on our property to do our own. Things like this. One day, maybe even two, he can go without heavy exercise, but he most certainly needs mental training work then in the house. Now, I have hiked him and taken him running since he was 8 months old. Did I contribute to his "love" of this, condition this? Possibly. But he is a much happier dog, and his behavior speaks volumes when he appears "fufilled". 

In addition, he has shown proper suspicion, proper aloofness, excellent watchfulness, all with non-reactivity. He displays perfect behavior according to the standard, especially in situations where suspicion and action may be required. He is very confident without one ounce of fear ever having been shown. Of course, he is still maturing, but in all honesty, he is becoming everything I ever wanted in a GSD and I would say that many "pet" owners would not be up to the task of mental training and physical requirements to produce such an excellent result--but I think this could be true of all breeds. Many breeds have "requirements" built into their purpose. But most certainly, proper GSD temperament and nerve is not found only in working lines. I suspect, based upon personal testimonies I have heard and other dogs I have seen, that there are just as many "couch" dogs and dogs with faulty nerve in workinglines as showlines. 

A proper GSD is found in both. To say the average pet owner can't handle working lines is IMHO the incorrect way to go about it--more like, the average pet owner _may not_ be able to 'handle' a properly bred GSD and very very unlikely to handle one with faulty temperament.


----------



## sparra

martemchik said:


> I'm not doubting your story...but I've heard a story from a "mixed breed" owner who had a GSD. He told me the story of how his dog is actually a GSD mixed with Czech Border Patrol Dog (which is pohranizni straze kennel of GSD) and that the 9 siblings went to work in Guantanamo and he got lucky enough to have the lone dog that went to a civilian home. Breeder was able to feed him a great line of BS in order to sell him a dog that wasn't registered for some reason or another. But the guy paid a lot of money for a grade A story lol.
> 
> So sorry...I don't see that in my dog...he gets stir crazy after 3 days of not doing obedience or agility work, or getting a nice amount of walking in. Or an extended fetch/tug session. I would not wish my dog on 95% of the GSD owners I know.


Well that is a great story but I KNOW they went to the police force....

No need to be sorry.....my dog is a pleasure to own and i wish everyone could have a GSD just like him.:wub: 
He is just a pet.....I don't get all caught up in the ins and outs of what he should be in terms of drive yarder, yarder, yarder .....all i care about is that I own a GSD who has a wonderful temperament is good with my kids, won't tear to pieces my house guests, is easy to train and a pleasure to have around....not a heartache.....if he does all these things then he has filled the brief as far as I am concerned. When did owning a GSD become so darn complicated.:crazy:


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## cliffson1

Owning a German Shepherd SHOULD not be complicated, there are literally thousands and thousands of dogs that go back to Border patrol dog that are living in family homes. FACT! ....this is why it is important to have correct information on these forums, instead of a person who has had a dog for 10 minutes, or never had the kind of dog they are speaking on, or heard from a friend that had a cousin tell them, that this is gospel......and when you peel back the onion and look at the facts, then you find that what they are saying is the exception and there are many many many many more instances of it not being the case. But somebody new reads this and runs with it and tells people in their circles and then people come to my training with some far fetched garbage about the breed, that when I question them this is where they got their information that now they have fixed in their mind. I wish I had a nickel for how many times I have seen this happen......this is as damaging to the brand of the GS as some of the breeding purposes. Now I ask some of you, have you found since reading this forum some of the things you were led to believe is much distorted from what you know now?


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## Liesje

In my experienced all my GSDs have been what I wanted/expected when I got them or chose them and I've never been disappointed by them or the breed as a whole, however my first experiences with the breed (experiences that formed how I feel about them and my desire to have them) were not via the Internet but various encounters I had with GSDs growing up (and I'm under 30, so as I am so constantly reminded I must not even know what a "real" GSD is....). 

That said I'm pretty introverted with my dogs. I don't like 99% of most other dogs and probably the majority of other peoples' GSDs either. I know what *I* like and I usually have good leads on who breeds it and how to get it, or in my most recent case we just breed it ourselves. 

I train and title my dogs in almost a dozen different venues and in every one you get crap from people about why you would train your dog in the other venues and talking like their titles are superior. Well, since I actually DO them all, none are any more or less significant to me. I used to get crap (mostly in a joking way) from a friend at SchH training about doing agility and other dog sports, and then when I trialed I beat his national dog in two phases. I took my club level showline dog to an SDA helper certification seminar and he worked on 7 people for two days in 90 degree heat. Put up or shut up is my motto. Don't come to Schutzhund club and tell me agility is a dumb waste of time when your dog is knocking into the jump every time he retrieves and about to break his back on the A-frame. And don't come to flyball and tell me Schutzhund dogs are all vicious "attack dogs" when my dog is never not under my control and couldn't care less what the other dogs are doing while your dog is running around chasing dogs in the other lane.

Anyway I feel like this post is just a bunch of random tangents....but one thing that annoys me about the breed as of late are people who think "drive" is everything. Like a dog is not worth club level SchH if it isn't "insane" or "extreme" drive. And then because this is apparently so desirable, now everything out there is labeled "extreme" drive, even neurotic behaviors that are just that, neurotic. There's NO reason why even a newbie to the breed and to SchH/IPO can't go out after two years and title a club level dog that is medium to high drive.


----------



## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> Now I ask some of you, have you found since reading this forum some of the things you were led to believe is much distorted from what you know now?


The biggest thing I've learned is that I needed to understand what each person thought about "the standard." When the line bashing started...I would always get confused when people looked down on ASL. I'm at a club that is mostly ASL and they looked like fine dogs to me. But then I realized that people just meant that they could never be true working dogs and that was the issue. Not that they weren't good dogs...they have solid temperaments, great with family, could do somethings well (with less gusto than other dogs but still do them). Sure, the likelihood of an ASL dog becoming a police dog, or a national Schutzhund champion is very unlikely, but it doesn't make them these terrible, weak tempered dogs.

In fact...I've seen more fearful, drivey, aggressive, bite and then ask questions later, working lines than I have ASL in my almost 3 years of dog ownership.

One more point on what Lies just wrote...people don't just want to title anymore...they want to be exceptional...they want to compete with the mals for drive and bites and all that other good stuff. You're right, no reason a newbie can't have a SchH1 by the second year with proper training, dedication, and guidance. But people get competitive, they want the over the top drive since it is praised so much in the ring. Balance isn't valued anymore, showstopping is.


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> One more point on what Lies just wrote...people don't just want to title anymore...they want to be exceptional...they want to compete with the mals for drive and bites and all that other good stuff. You're right, no reason a newbie can't have a SchH1 by the second year with proper training, dedication, and guidance. But people get competitive, they want the over the top drive since it is praised so much in the ring. Balance isn't valued anymore, showstopping is.


Luckily, not everyone is this way though. When I think of my own SchH club, there are only one or two people thinking like this, and a good number of successful people who do not think like this and who are not looking for GSDs that act like neurotic Mals.

People just need to spend more time DOING and less time assuming and making generalizations. And not just titling dogs but training and having fun. The range of dogs (breeds and temperaments) and the range of experience in my clubs is quite extensive, not just SchH clubs but flyball, agility, nosework class, etc. I guess the more I'm out actually training and trialing dogs, the less I feel like our breed is doomed and people only care about points and trophies, but the more time I spend in here, the more I might feel that way.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I don't want to get in the middle...just seems like there was a miscommunication between you and Dani.

In blue, I agree with this.

I would just add that individual cases vary. Again I can see parallels here with the horse world. A first time horse owner would not be able to handle a really hot off the track Thoroughbred. Are their some TBs that are of a calmer nature, yes. Can they be managed with help, training, commitment and experience, yes.

So if a person was interested in getting their very first horse I would not recommend a TB to them because the chances of finding one that would be a forgiving first mount is much less then with a Quarter Horse or Tennessee Walker.

This scenario assumes that I don't know the people really well and therefore would opt with a more conservative suggestion to be on the safe side.

The other issue with dogs (of any breed) that require more exercise and mental stimulation is a good number of people don't want invest that kind of energy into a dog. (see obesity epidemic in this country)

My neighbor's first dog in many, many years is a Czech dog. When I saw him with the dog the first time I realized it was Czech dog and told him to head on up to our local SchH,PP, K9 Helper trainer. To my neighbor's credit he did go up there take some lessons, did some board and train too. He can manage the dog in limited environments. He won't go to a park with him or other places because he's a bit intimidated by the dog (the trainer said of his dog, that's a real police dog...I not making that up). So my neighbor manages the dog in limited circumstances with support from the trainer. If this dog had ended up with someone with fewer resources I guarantee you he would have ended up being re-homed. Actually my neighbor is a good person and loves the dog but you know...I just get the feeling this dog would be happier working as LE K9, stretching his muscles and his brains doing what he was bred to do. Anyhoo just an ancedotal example of how sometimes mismatchs do happen and that I think it's more likely to happen with a WL (not always, just from an general what are the odds perspective).






RocketDog said:


> Obviously you're referring to me. The thing is, your initial post, DID sound like you were saying exactly that. Like you did NOT know who or why the OP started the thread. If you only wanted to condense threads, why say "perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads" instead of "can we condense these threads, I rather dislike switching back and forth". Two different meanings. One says, go read, the other says lets discuss in one place. I wasn't being any more 'sarcastic' than you. Own what you post is all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I can tell you that working lines are not the be all, end all. My WGSL dog is excellent in the house. He is trustworthy alone outside of a crate at 22 months (and has been for a long time), he will settle and relax even if he doesn't want to if I ask him to. However, he is far from a "couch" dog. Far. This does not mean he can not "go with the flow" though--he does what I ask of him. He also can "not even go three days" without physical AND mental stimulation, and walks don't really cut it for him, unless they are a walk requiring mental effort. I hike him, I work obedience and trick training, and he runs several days a week with me. (In fact, I have been doing quite a bit of speedwork and have not taken him, since I'm doing sprint repeats and do I get the stink-eye when I get home.) I take him with me when I am doing other activities, to train his behavior in different places. He spent the day at my parents house while my family did their spring clean up--unfenced, strange neighborhood, lawn mowers, blowers, trimmers, raking. He spends the day with us while we are using bobcats and 4 wheelers on our property to do our own. Things like this. One day, maybe even two, he can go without heavy exercise, but he most certainly needs mental training work then in the house. Now, I have hiked him and taken him running since he was 8 months old. Did I contribute to his "love" of this, condition this? Possibly. But he is a much happier dog, and his behavior speaks volumes when he appears "fufilled".
> 
> In addition, he has shown proper suspicion, proper aloofness, excellent watchfulness, all with non-reactivity. He displays perfect behavior according to the standard, especially in situations where suspicion and action may be required. He is very confident without one ounce of fear ever having been shown. Of course, he is still maturing, but in all honesty, he is becoming everything I ever wanted in a GSD and I would say that many "pet" owners would not be up to the task of mental training and physical requirements to produce such an excellent result--but I think this could be true of all breeds. Many breeds have "requirements" built into their purpose. But most certainly, proper GSD temperament and nerve is not found only in working lines. I suspect, based upon personal testimonies I have heard and other dogs I have seen, that there are just as many "couch" dogs and dogs with faulty nerve in workinglines as showlines.
> 
> A proper GSD is found in both. To say the average pet owner can't handle working lines is IMHO the incorrect way to go about it--more like, the average pet owner _may not_ be able to 'handle' a properly bred GSD and very very unlikely to handle one with faulty temperament.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:


Ironically in our basic all breed OB class, the most dedicated people who showed up were us GSD owners (just a coincidence but that's how it worked out in our class) as a result our dogs were top of the class. 

I had taken a very dim view of showlines in general because of some of the things I was reading. Then I got out there (and ended up with a showline by accident really) and now I have a different perspective.

I'd also like to add that Daphne and other showline breeders do seem to care about 'moderate' conformation and good temperaments (even if it may not be top dogs in SchH or Police work).

Overall I think there are positive trends in breeding and public awareness about health testing and so on.

So I have to say my observations match yours and now a days I don't care what people do with their dogs ....just get out there and DO something. 





Liesje said:


> Luckily, not everyone is this way though. When I think of my own SchH club, there are only one or two people thinking like this, and a good number of successful people who do not think like this and who are not looking for GSDs that act like neurotic Mals.
> 
> People just need to spend more time DOING and less time assuming and making generalizations. And not just titling dogs but training and having fun. The range of dogs (breeds and temperaments) and the range of experience in my clubs is quite extensive, not just SchH clubs but flyball, agility, nosework class, etc. I guess the more I'm out actually training and trialing dogs, the less I feel like our breed is doomed and people only care about points and trophies, but the more time I spend in here, the more I might feel that way.


----------



## mycobraracr

The trend I'm seeing, at least in the groups I train with is that people are getting away from the over the top "drivey" dogs. Every one thinks they want one but then they end up with a neurotic, hectic dog that you can't do anything with. In my groups, more and more people are trying to branch out and participate in different venues. I try and play in different protection sports but have recently found I like AKC obedience. So I will be starting that too. I think too many people have that thought that WL's don't settle. My two settle very nicely. They spend a lot of the time on the couch just hanging out. Heidi can actually be a bit annoying. If you're laying on the couch then unless she is in your skin with you she's not close enough haha. But put her collar on and all of a sudden it's like a switch turned on and it's work time! She loves to work! Because of that it makes her easy and enjoyable to train. My puppy is turning out to be the same way (same breeder, similar line so to be expected). I feel that these dogs can do anything thrown at them. Now my job is to do as much with them as possible to see if I'm right. I thought my SL was capable of anything until I changed venues. Then she just fell apart. It was like we had never trained before. Everyone who had never met her couldn't believe it. I wouldn't have believed it either if I didn't see it with my own eyes. So I do think that playing in multiple venues is a good thing. It can show you about what's really under the dog. It's not the titles that show you about the dog as much as the process getting their. 

That's where I think titles are important. You can see what the do has made it through. They show the breeder takes the time to work their dogs and in the process has learned a great deal about their dogs. As long as they are ethical then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. The problem is that I think we forget that most people buying dogs don't have friends that are breeders. They don't have any relationship with them other than that fancy website. So how can you trust a persons ethics and integrity when you don't know them? So at least by having titles as a PART of the checklist it gives us some hope that the dogs are sound. 

Okay my rant is over. I think I blacked out for a moment. haha


----------



## martemchik

mycobraracr said:


> The trend I'm seeing, at least in the groups I train with is that people are getting away from the over the top "drivey" dogs. Every one thinks they want one but then they end up with a neurotic, hectic dog that you can't do anything with. In my groups, more and more people are trying to branch out and participate in different venues. I try and play in different protection sports but have recently found I like AKC obedience. So I will be starting that too. I think too many people have that thought that WL's don't settle. My two settle very nicely. They spend a lot of the time on the couch just hanging out. Heidi can actually be a bit annoying. If you're laying on the couch then unless she is in your skin with you she's not close enough haha. But put her collar on and all of a sudden it's like a switch turned on and it's work time! She loves to work! Because of that it makes her easy and enjoyable to train. My puppy is turning out to be the same way (same breeder, similar line so to be expected). I feel that these dogs can do anything thrown at them. Now my job is to do as much with them as possible to see if I'm right. I thought my SL was capable of anything until I changed venues. Then she just fell apart. It was like we had never trained before. Everyone who had never met her couldn't believe it. I wouldn't have believed it either if I didn't see it with my own eyes. So I do think that playing in multiple venues is a good thing. It can show you about what's really under the dog. It's not the titles that show you about the dog as much as the process getting their.
> 
> That's where I think titles are important. You can see what the do has made it through. They show the breeder takes the time to work their dogs and in the process has learned a great deal about their dogs. As long as they are ethical then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. The problem is that I think we forget that most people buying dogs don't have friends that are breeders. They don't have any relationship with them other than that fancy website. So how can you trust a persons ethics and integrity when you don't know them? So at least by having titles as a PART of the checklist it gives us some hope that the dogs are sound.
> 
> Okay my rant is over. I think I blacked out for a moment. haha


That's exactly right...I also don't see too many problem dogs and I definitely don't see the breed going down the drain. Do I see LE/Military candidates? No...but I also don't see problem dogs that are too dangerous to have around children/family/other dogs. Those are the dogs that scare me, not the "lab in a GSD body type of dog." At least that dog will have a safe home, be a safe pet, and not need much work. The other type of dog...scares me in the hands of the wrong person.

The fact is, the majority of the breed is still stable. We have outliers...and we hear more about the outliers on the forum because people only ask questions when they have problems. No one comes on here going, I have a perfect dog and I'm looking for information about how to fix the problems he doesn't have. In real life...at my club we get 5 dogs a year that truly have aggression issues, out of hundreds of puppies and dozens of other dogs that join to train.

But the thing about titles being part of the ethics equation is correct. That is one of the only ways we can find out more about a breeder. If you're not involved with dog sport, or for some reason decided that you will do research on a venue BEFORE you get the dog (rarely happens), you don't get that connection with a breeder and develop the trust we're talking about when it comes to a breeder choosing to breed an untitled dog and expecting people to accept it and still pay as much for the pups as they would if both dogs were SchH3.


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## lhczth

The sad thing is that in our KPT classes if a good nerved GSD comes to class it is a rarity. We dread seeing a GSD sign up because we see so many that are as I describe. 

Of course this has little to do with titling. I also see dogs out of titled stock that are not correct in temperament.


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## DaniFani

RocketDog said:


> Obviously you're referring to me. The thing is, your initial post, DID sound like you were saying exactly that. Like you did NOT know who or why the OP started the thread. If you only wanted to condense threads, why say "perhaps you'd be better served looking at those threads" instead of "can we condense these threads, I rather dislike switching back and forth". Two different meanings. One says, go read, the other says lets discuss in one place. I wasn't being any more 'sarcastic' than you. Own what you post is all.


Oh Lordy Bee! I don't give a hoot "who he is" or "why he started this thread" It's cute that people like you cow tail to those on the interwebs, his point and "reason" could have just as easily been said in the other threads where it was actively being discussed. 

Thank goodness he has you to watch out for him though, and protect him from those of us that don't "know him."


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## RocketDog

You got all that from my post? Read too much into things often? 

I couldn't care less who posted it. (sorry Cliff, but it's true) It has absolutely nothing to do with Cliff himself. You didn't post what you "say" you meant. It doesn't matter who you were directing it to. Capiche?


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## sitstay

DaniFani said:


> Oh Lordy Bee! I don't give a hoot "who he is" or "why he started this thread"


Well, you should care. If this board runs off all the truly experienced people, you know who we'll be left with? Inexperienced people who read an article in "Dog Fancy" and suddenly become experts, people who own a 4-month old puppy giving advice on alpha-rolling as the cure all method of training and a breeder who is about as close as you can get to being a puppy mill without a USDA kennel license.

What is wrong with people? If you don't want to read a thread, DON"T READ IT! This is ridiculous! If someone thinks a thread is redundant, skip it. 
Sheilah


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## Cassidy's Mom

lhczth said:


> The sad thing is that in our KPT classes if a good nerved GSD comes to class it is a rarity. We dread seeing a GSD sign up because we see so many that are as I describe.


Sad, but true. Our flyball club practices at a Humane Society, and one of our members is the director of behavior and training there. One day I had pulled up and was unloading and setting up my portable crate while Halo was waiting in her car crate. Dawn walked up, said "Hi Halo" and put her fingers up to the bars for Halo to lick. Then she sighed and said "I'm not used to nice dogs". I joked back that she wasn't always nice, lol. Dawn said "yeah, but not like what I see in the shelter". I'm sure because of her job she sees a higher percentage of not nice dogs than the average person, but still - unfortunate that there are so many bad examples of the breed out there.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I run across labs with problems and don't get me started on Weimeraners.

A lady who used to run a boarding kennel near me (and also trained and started Malinois for police) said that in her experience Weimeraners were off the hook unstable more than any other breed she boarded/trained and I've not had much better luck when meeting them. 

Springers have a 'rage' syndrome.

Aussies used to have some lines with aggression issues.

And the worst dog I ever dealt with was a 130# Kuvasv that decided I was not allowed to stand quietly, with MY back to a corner chatting with his owner AFTER I had fed him....no warning he gave me a good sound grrrSNAP right in my mid section. Luckily my belt protected me.

I never liked that dog and would rather take my chance with a dozen GSDs.


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## martemchik

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sad, but true. Our flyball club practices at a Humane Society, and one of our members is the director of behavior and training there. One day I had pulled up and was unloading and setting up my portable crate while Halo was waiting in her car crate. Dawn walked up, said "Hi Halo" and put her fingers up to the bars for Halo to lick. Then she sighed and said "I'm not used to nice dogs". I joked back that she wasn't always nice, lol. Dawn said "yeah, but not like what I see in the shelter". I'm sure because of her job she sees a higher percentage of not nice dogs than the average person, but still - unfortunate that there are so many bad examples of the breed out there.


I know you said it, but yes, her position pretty much guarantees she'll be dealing with the cast offs for one reason or another. The biggest one probably being aggression. I actually don't see too many GSDs in our shelter here, I look constantly as we're looking to foster/adopt one possibly. It's all other breeds, mostly the one breed that shall not be named especially in a sentence where aggression is used.

Every breed has issues. There are always outliers to the norm. It's statistically impossible to not have some dogs have issues. Look at the human race and how many issues we have (and supposedly we're pretty well bred). I don't see an overwhelming % of GSDs having issues. Probably just as many on a percentage basis as any other breed.

The discussion isn't about the problem dogs though...those will always happen. The discussion is about any breeder that isn't breeding to the standard temperament. So not a LE or Military or all day herding dog. Dogs that are just fine in temperament, don't have any ticks, don't have any aggression issues, but just aren't driven to work as much as the standard calls for. Perfectly happy dogs, in perfectly happy homes, that don't want a dog that requires the type of work some working dogs do. Don't get me wrong...I know off-switches exist...my boy has one...but I still can't expect him to lay on the couch for a week straight without getting him some exercise, and the fact is, many people do (and out of a GSD).


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## sitstay

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ...unfortunate that there are so many bad examples of the breed out there.


Which is why Tanner will be my last GSD. I have lived with and loved this breed for almost 50 years, but I am done.
Sheilah


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## cliffson1

@Martemchik.......when I define good GS temperament, I always include seeing-eye dogs, but when people come back with alternate temperament to working being acceptable, they omit the seeing-eye dog, I guess where I am confused is what traits does a seeing eye possess, that would be incompatible for families? If we are saying that seeing -eye temperament is working temperament....then how come seeing-eye foundations seldom seek GS anymore?......it can't be because of too much drive, it can't be because they are too aggressive, it can't be because they can't settle in the house, it's not because of availability, because we have all those German Shepherds in homes that have the "family" temperament many want to see...., and yet ask Seeing eye foundations why they are not using more GS. What prevents GS, especially the low and no drive dogs from performing this noble service to man or woman. 
I am not trying to be overbearing, but I am trying to make a point....the breed should be able to work from seeing eye to SAR to LE or Military, within all those vocations are the different levels of family that a dog can easily adjust to. But people are breeding dogs that fall below the level of any work. This would seem to me to me to indicate something is lacking in the breed, and when it changes then it won't be a need to point it out. I hope this makes some sense, I am not trying judge others or your post, just trying to show a picture and result that illustrates that you don't have to compromise working ability, to have any level of family life and be successful.....so many of us strive hard to educate people about this as much we do bad hips, after all they both hurt the breed.
And from this perspective, I do value titles as helping to keep breed temperament intact.


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## DaniFani

sit said:


> Well, you should care. If this board runs off all the truly experienced people, you know who we'll be left with? Inexperienced people who read an article in "Dog Fancy" and suddenly become experts, people who own a 4-month old puppy giving advice on alpha-rolling as the cure all method of training and a breeder who is about as close as you can get to being a puppy mill without a USDA kennel license.
> Sheilah


I don't know if you read all the nonsense from the get go, but the context of "I don't care who he is, or his reason for starting the thread" had nothing to do with his message, and everything to do with where it was (just condensing it all into one thread). Not sure why Rocketdog has it out for me, he could have let it die several times but wants to keep going. 

Rocketdog,

If I am not allowed to "read into" what you write than you aren't allowed to read into my initial post. You go to great lengths to interpret my initial post and then slam me for interpreting what you say....Let it go man, capiche?


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## DaniFani

cliffson1 said:


> @Martemchik.......when I define good GS temperament, I always include seeing-eye dogs, but when people come back with alternate temperament to working being acceptable, they omit the seeing-eye dog, I guess where I am confused is what traits does a seeing eye possess, that would be incompatible for families? If we are saying that seeing -eye temperament is working temperament....then how come seeing-eye foundations seldom seek GS anymore?......it can't be because of too much drive, it can't be because they are too aggressive, it can't be because they can't settle in the house, it's not because of availability, because we have all those German Shepherds in homes that have the "family" temperament many want to see...., and yet ask Seeing eye foundations why they are not using more GS. What prevents GS, especially the low and no drive dogs from performing this noble service to man or woman.
> I am not trying to be overbearing, but I am trying to make a point....the breed should be able to work from seeing eye to SAR to LE or Military, within all those vocations are the different levels of family that a dog can easily adjust to. But people are breeding dogs that fall below the level of any work. This would seem to me to me to indicate something is lacking in the breed, and when it changes then it won't be a need to point it out. I hope this makes some sense, I am not trying judge others or your post, just trying to show a picture and result that illustrates that you don't have to compromise working ability, to have any level of family life and be successful.....so many of us strive hard to educate people about this as much we do bad hips, after all they both hurt the breed.
> And from this perspective, I do value titles as helping to keep breed temperament intact.


This is my biggest fear when looking for our "working line" GSD(years from now). I just trained with a woman who runs a K9 academy in California. She had several dogs with her, Malis and Shepherds that she was weeding out for the academy. I was talking to her about how hard it is to find a truly versatile GSD, one that can be the Sch champion/police dog/protection/military etc... and still the great family dog(she has a vendor she uses in the Netherlands). 

I've never thought about the seeing eye dog thing before, would you say most LE k9's (GSD) you've worked with or seen have the ability to work all ends of the spectrum? The woman who ran this academy was of the opinion that a lot of LE K9's on the street aren't capable of handling extreme situations. When she went into a department and tested their K9's (that were on the street, mind you) most did not meet her expectations (obviously only one person's opinion, but caused me pause to think).

My fear of going to working lines is sifting through the breeders that breed specifically for that high drive and in actuality have dogs with no cap, neurotic behaviors, bite-first-ask-later, handler aggression, etc.... they may be great in the one venue of Sch or Protection but not able to switch it off with the family in the home...Luckily I have made some great connections with breeders and will be going to train in Germany this summer with some amazing breeders and sch people over there. I know that they will guide me when I decide I am ready for a working line. However, it is still daunting, and I have more tools at my fingertips than most "noobs" so I can't imagine how overwhelming it would be to someone with no connections or mentors. I am starting to truly believe that I cannot trust buying a dog from a breeder, unless I personally know them, know their practice, and work with them and their dogs for awhile, before I'd consider purchasing one. And, to me, it's crazy that it has to be that way. But, I am a naive noob, so everything is crazy to me lol. Sorry for the semi-rant. I'd just like to hear your opinion on the faults in the working lines, and your ideas to fix these problems (ie seeing eye work no longer being something expected of a gsd).


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## sitstay

DaniFani said:


> I don't know if you read all the nonsense from the get go, but the context of "I don't care who he is, or his reason for starting the thread" had nothing to do with his message, and everything to do with where it was (just condensing it all into one thread). Not sure why Rocketdog has it out for me, he could have let it die several times but wants to keep going.


I can only speak for myself, but your original post came across as rude. That might not have been your intent, but that was how it appeared to me. It isn't up to you to decide what has been "discussed extensively" or what hasn't been discussed extensively. You can always notify a mod if you think a thread needs to be merged with another.

It doesn't matter if it is a person like Cliff who has decades of verified, real world experience or some 19 year old kid asking how to potty train a new puppy. Everyone should be free to start whatever thread they want, and everyone else is equally free to read those threads or not read them, as they wish. 

It is easy to be misunderstood on the internet, that is for sure. And it sure does show just how much we rely on body language and tone of voice to impart or ascertain meaning.
Sheilah


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## Cassidy's Mom

DaniFani said:


> My fear of going to working lines is sifting through the breeders that breed specifically for that high drive and in actuality have dogs with no cap, neurotic behaviors, bite-first-ask-later, handler aggression, etc.... they may be great in the one venue of Sch or Protection but not able to switch it off with the family in the home...


To be honest, I had similar concerns. I got my first GSD way back in 1986, but until Halo I'd never had a working line dog before. She was listed on the breeder's website as being suitable as an active family companion or for a working home. Several of her littermates are doing Schutzhund, one is doing SAR, and she has a couple of half siblings out of the same sire who are working as police K9s. 

I made it very clear when I inquired about Halo that I was not interested in pursuing Schutzhund, but that we liked to do a lot of fun things with our dogs. I mentioned that I'd taken agility classes with a previous dog and thought I'd like to try that with my next puppy too. I described a typical day and week in the life of my dogs, to make sure that this puppy would fit our home and lifestyle. Having an off switch was very important to me. 

As it turns out, I never got around to agility classes - we tried flyball first, and she LOVES it! A little over 8 months later, we were in a club and Halo was racing on a team. Today I strapped on her backpack and took her for a 7-1/2 mile hike. We've also done a few dock diving events. But when we're not out doing fun activities she settles nicely, and actually is flat out on the floor quite a bit! 

I think if you go with a breeder who knows their lines well, is careful to place the right puppy with the right family, and you are very clear about what you want and don't want, you should be fine with a working line dog.


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## RocketDog

sit said:


> I can only speak for myself, but your original post came across as rude. That might not have been your intent, but that was how it appeared to me. It isn't up to you to decide what has been "discussed extensively" or what hasn't been discussed extensively. You can always notify a mod if you think a thread needs to be merged with another.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is a person like Cliff who has decades of verified, real world experience or some 19 year old kid asking how to potty train a new puppy. Everyone should be free to start whatever thread they want, and everyone else is equally free to read those threads or not read them, as they wish.
> 
> It is easy to be misunderstood on the internet, that is for sure. And it sure does show just how much we rely on body language and tone of voice to impart or ascertain meaning.
> Sheilah


Thank you, that is a clear explanation, also I would add that I saw this thread as an offshoot of the other one. 

DaniFani-- ha. I "have it in for you"? I believe I made a second post after my first which didn't even reference you or your post. You were the one that came back and started throwing the word sarcastic etc. around. 

And by the way-- I'm not a man, I'm a woman.


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## Tim Connell

cliffson1 said:


> Just wanted to say that I'm definitely not anti titles in any venue for the GS. I think titles help dogs develop to their potential and strengthen the understanding and love between dog and owner. I also think that many many many years ago certain breed titles ( SCH/HGH ) were great tools for acquiring breeding stock and developing breed knowledge for owners that wanted to become breeders. No, I am not against titles at all, but I also know that titles can no longer serve as a breeding endorsement like in years past. Is it better than nothing?.....probably........but the bar is so low now that even with titles scores of dogs are still lacking in breed type and breed reliability. So we must look deeper than titles to assess dogs and breeders today.


This thread certainly took the long way around the barn. 

I agree with Cliff, titles are a piece of an elaborate puzzle that is the total makeup of the dog. In many cases, titles are not "what they used to be" as far as a breed test, and there are indeed many more aspects that need to be examined. 

There are some of us here that focus strictly on the working dogs, and frankly, I could care less about anything non-working, or showline. I do however respect individual people's opinions on what a GSD should be...even if they are not what I envision, or Capt. von Stephanitz envisioned. I can respect your opinion, even though it's troubling to me what some have done to the breed. I don't agree with a GSD that cannot work, but that's what makes the world go round. Capt. von Stephanitz would roll over in his grave if he saw how some "GSD's" look and perform. He stressed utility as a working dog, with working structure, courage, and versatility. In some lines, these characteristics are non-existent.

As for the post that referred to the new people wanting to learn...there is one "Universal Stupid Question" : It is the one that is not asked. I fully support new people getting involved, since clearly they are the future of working dogs, so it certainly behooves anyone with a bit more time at the end of the leash to help them out. We were all new at one point, and sometimes people forget that.


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## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> @Martemchik.......when I define good GS temperament, I always include seeing-eye dogs, but when people come back with alternate temperament to working being acceptable, they omit the seeing-eye dog, I guess where I am confused is what traits does a seeing eye possess, that would be incompatible for families? If we are saying that seeing -eye temperament is working temperament....then how come seeing-eye foundations seldom seek GS anymore?......it can't be because of too much drive, it can't be because they are too aggressive, it can't be because they can't settle in the house, it's not because of availability, because we have all those German Shepherds in homes that have the "family" temperament many want to see...., and yet ask Seeing eye foundations why they are not using more GS. What prevents GS, especially the low and no drive dogs from performing this noble service to man or woman.
> I am not trying to be overbearing, but I am trying to make a point....the breed should be able to work from seeing eye to SAR to LE or Military, within all those vocations are the different levels of family that a dog can easily adjust to. But people are breeding dogs that fall below the level of any work. This would seem to me to me to indicate something is lacking in the breed, and when it changes then it won't be a need to point it out. I hope this makes some sense, I am not trying judge others or your post, just trying to show a picture and result that illustrates that you don't have to compromise working ability, to have any level of family life and be successful.....so many of us strive hard to educate people about this as much we do bad hips, after all they both hurt the breed.
> And from this perspective, I do value titles as helping to keep breed temperament intact.


Delayed response but...

Every service training organization I have looked into breeds their own dogs anyways. So the fact that they don't use GSDs has nothing to do with the quality of the dogs out there but more their choice. There is a club member of mine (GSD club) that raises puppies for one of these organizations, they use a Golden/Lab mix and breed their own dogs. They keep their line going by taking in stud dogs and bitches, but those dogs are just used for making the new service stock...never to actually work. I believe this is how Seeing Eye out in Jersey works as well. They have their own dogs they breed but they do not take in and train dogs from other breeders for service.

A personal story involving a prospect for a seeing eye dog: I was at a dog park when my boy was about 6 months old, and there was a beautiful black GSD there running around and playing fetch with the owner. I of course made friends and found out all about the dog. Came from excellent SchH3 lines, blah blah blah, all the good stuff...well the owner wanted it as her seeing eye dog. Went to a breeder that charged her an enormous amount of money (even for a working line) because this dog was bred to "work." Well...this dog had so much prey drive, so much love of a tennis ball...that it would attack other dogs that came close to the ball. And I'm not talking about a warning snap or two...I'm talking about a 90 pound shepherd at the other dog's throat. Sure...this dog would've made a great SchH dog. Probably a great K9 prospect. But the last thing this dog was ever going to do was be a seeing eye dog.


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## Jack's Dad

Martemckik...

I usually like your posts but this one makes no sense to me.

How is a blind person out playing fetch at a park with a high energy dog?
Most people have to qualify for a seeing eye dog and would not purchase through a breeder. There is no way to know if a dog purchased from a breeder of any line will eventually meet the qualifications to do that kind of work. Hence organizations to weed them out. How would a person with severe vision problems pick out a breeder that they hope might give them a prospect?

The whole misconception about "working line" or working dogs somehow being some crazy creature that is almost impossible for a normal human being is absurd.

They, like all GSDs need leadership, exercise and training but can make amazingly calm and relaxed pets. When they are on they are on and when off they are off.

There are crazy dogs in all lines and there are owners who make dogs crazy in all lines.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jack's Dad said:


> The whole misconception about "working line" or working dogs somehow being some crazy creature that is almost impossible for a normal human being is absurd.


No offense to working line people but part of that misconception is their own fault. Always exceptions-Cliff, Carmen, etc. etc. Actually it comes more from pet owners than the breeders.


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## Mrs.K

It is coming from pet owners. All that crazy stuff that you have to run them four miles a day and they cannot settle is out of this world....

When I see pet people and what they consider high drive....it is medium at best and being a bitch about another dog getting the ball has nothing to do with high drive.

My highest driven dog will not go at another dogs throat, my medium to high drive will.

Some of the crazyness on here about working lines...sheesh...makes you wonder....

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1

Sigh.....ok....whatever you all say!


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## Blitzkrieg1

Cliff I happen to agree with you, I have seen dogs titled and that will title that I wouldnt want to own. 
THAT BEING SAID I would never want to own a dog that COULDNT title in a protection sport (agility and all that looks fun I may even try it but a GSD that is incapable of bite work is not a good one in my books), to me thats not a GSD. Thats something else in GSD clothing. No dog is perfect as I have learned only to well but what all GSDs should have is the ability to work and be a family dog. Not just one or the other. Obviously some dogs are geared more to one venue then the other but for a dog to be unable to fulfill either of the above occupations is a major fault.
I dont care if you arent interested in working your dog. I dont care if the majority of people just want a pet that lays on the couch. Its this type of thinking that has made finding a decent dog so difficult. 
If you just want a pet and dont want a dog with drive or the ability to protect you get a some other breed.
I personally would have no issues with there being a lot less GSDs around. Way too many people want one of these dogs without being able to handle one, as evidenced by the behavior section in this forum.


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## martemchik

You don't have to be black out blind to be considered blind. Most legally blind people can see shapes, and some color, they just have really really really bad vision compared to even those that wear glasses.

Sorry us "pet people" don't have real opinions. I bow down to all of you "real working" owners. That's right...I have no idea what "high drive" is or anything to do with GSD...

My point of view is coming from the people I see own GSDs...and trust me, they wouldn't be able to deal with a medium drive working line. BTW...I have a working line that I do things with, if I didn't do those things, he'd be a handful. But wait...I'm just a pet person, what do I know?

BTW cliff...this is kind of funny considering we just had the "heavy weights" discussion on a different thread. I know you didn't bring it up...but look at the "real working dog" owners stepping all over us regular "pet owners."

Guess we just shouldn't have an opinion on what happens with the breed, we're just the biggest market for those animals that you working people are breeding and trying to find homes for.

By the way...no disrespect Mrs. K...but what exactly do YOU do with your dogs that makes you more than a "pet owner?"


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## Blanketback

Martemchik, I would also question your interpretation of the dog displaying, "so much prey drive." From one pet owner to another, lol - I'd be more inclined to call that 'possessive aggression', or 'guarding behavior'. I'm interested to know why you think that has anything to do with prey drive. No criticism intended, just trying to learn something.


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## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> Martemchik, I would also question your interpretation of the dog displaying, "so much prey drive." From one pet owner to another, lol - I'd be more inclined to call that 'possessive aggression', or 'guarding behavior'. I'm interested to know why you think that has anything to do with prey drive. No criticism intended, just trying to learn something.


True...but its my opinion that a high amount of prey drive can lead to possessive or guarding behavior. If all the dog wants out of life is a tennis ball, of course they're going to get possessive over it. Can you train the dog not to do that? Sure...but like many people on here talk about when it comes to working dogs...there are some things you don't want to take time training into or out of your dog when it comes to temperament, and in my opinion this is a temperament flaw.

My point in that story was that although this was a very to the standard dog, it was never going to be a seeing eye dog. Any of the Schutzhund people on here would've loved to have that thing to handle and train, but it just didn't have the right temperament for seeing eye type things.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Personally it matters not a wit to me that pet owners are the biggest market, thats what has caused many of the issues in the breed in the first place.
Now do you want to define pet ownership?
I may have been considered a pet owner not to long ago. I had a GSD rescue she was my companion, we did active stuff together to burn off her energy and mine, BUT I also expected her to guard my family, property and possessions. To provide an active detterent, which she did several times. If I just wanted a pet I would have got a Golden. I think most people that purchase these dogs expect more then just something to pet and lay on the couch next to them. If that is all you want out of a dog this is not the breed for you.


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## martemchik

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Personally it matters not a wit to me that pet owners are the biggest market, thats what has caused many of the issues in the breed in the first place.
> Now do you want to define pet ownership?
> I may have been considered a pet owner not to long ago. I had a GSD rescue she was my companion, we did active stuff together to burn off her energy and mine, BUT I also expected her to guard my family, property and possessions. To provide an active detterent, which she did several times. If I just wanted a pet I would have got a Golden. I think most people that purchase these dogs expect more then just something to pet and lay on the couch next to them. If that is all you want out of a dog this is not the breed for you.


A pet is any dog that isn't getting worked in a venue. Isn't being trained for a purpose. Sure, they protect and do all that stuff...but at the end of the day they're just pets. And no...you can't tell people "DON'T BUY THIS BREED IF YOU JUST WANT IT TO LAY AROUND" people will buy whatever dog they want, that's just the way it is.

I train and trial my dog in AKC obedience, rally, and agility, and sometimes you get the feeling on this forum that that doesn't even count as working a dog. Since its not an active K9, service dog, military dog, or doing SCHUTZHUND. So guess what...I'm a pet owner as well.


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## onyx'girl

Wow, there is quite a bit of defensiveness in this thread(from everyone!). 
I'm a pet owner as well, I don't consider the dog I train in IPO a 'working dog'. He is my companion and we train several times a week, but it isn't his job. Oh, and he's a working line.


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## Lilie

This has been an entertaining thread to say the least.


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## Blanketback

That's too simplistic though. Martemchik, you also allow your dog the freedom that the breed was intended for - you frequently flaunt the 'leash law' to let your GSD be a GSD. I know you do, from your past posts. I agree with you in that respect: the dogs need to run and it's up to us to find a place for that, since unfortunately not all of us are blessed with acreage. 

Just over 100 years ago, these dogs were out tending flocks. They were depended upon. They were allowed the freedom to think. They could act on their character and aggress when needed. However we want to classify ourselves as owners, it's how we treat the dogs that matters. IMO, it's not just lying around on the couch that hurts them - it's the removal of all things dear to them: freedom to think, freedom to move, freedom to act.


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## Blitzkrieg1

martemchik said:


> A pet is any dog that isn't getting worked in a venue. Isn't being trained for a purpose. Sure, they protect and do all that stuff...but at the end of the day they're just pets. And no...you can't tell people "DON'T BUY THIS BREED IF YOU JUST WANT IT TO LAY AROUND" people will buy whatever dog they want, that's just the way it is.
> 
> I train and trial my dog in AKC obedience, rally, and agility, and sometimes you get the feeling on this forum that that doesn't even count as working a dog. Since its not an active K9, service dog, military dog, or doing SCHUTZHUND. So guess what...I'm a pet owner as well.


Nonsense, let me put it this way, I have two Chihuahuas they are pets I have 0 expectations when it comes to them other then they not behave like little terrorists. My GSD is my companion, my sport dog and also my guardian. If the dog cannot fulfill those roles I have little use for it.

I have expectations of what a GSD should be and what it should offer my household. If I didnt want those things out of a dog I would have got a Golden or some such breed. When most people buy a GSD its because they have the guardian aspect in mind. The fact that many of these dogs are incapable of actually doing that for them is not a factor in their thinking. The average joe just assumes GSD = Guardian, protection dog etc. Most people have that in mind when they obtain one. 
Fyi we can all tell people whatever we want to tell them, its a free country. 
This is a forum I am expressing my opinion, and yes I dont think much of people that buy a GSD without providing it with an outlet for what they were bred to be. I also think even less of breeders that produce GSDs that are incapable of fulfilling the role of a working/family dog.


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## Jack's Dad

Most working dogs no longer work. Hunting dogs don't hunt and most retrievers only retrieve balls and such. Most St. Bernards aren't out saving people from snow covered mountain tops.

The point is people buy any breed for the character the breed was intended for.

Why would anyone want to change the basic core of what a GSD or any other breed is. 

Owners should make an effort to understand what they are actually getting in the breed they choose and find appropriate outlets for their dogs

Unfortunately too many GSD owners don't realize that our dogs will do things other dogs won't. 

Mine take our property, home and especially family very seriously.
You would think they were going to kill someone either coming on to the property or to the door. They will settle on our approval of the person but that doesn't mean they will become best friends with the person.

I see that as typical, for the breed. I don't want them to stop doing that.

If some are not prepared or don't want the protective, aloof, aggressive characteristics that come with the breed then they will be disappointed.

Why try to alter the character of the breed so more people can own something they probably shouldn't.


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## mycobraracr

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Personally it matters not a wit to me that pet owners are the biggest market, thats what has caused many of the issues in the breed in the first place.





Jack's Dad said:


> Most working dogs no longer work. Hunting dogs don't hunt and most retrievers only retrieve balls and such. Most St. Bernards aren't out saving people from snow covered mountain tops.
> 
> The point is people buy any breed for the character the breed was intended for.
> 
> Why would anyone want to change the basic core of what a GSD or any other breed is.
> 
> Owners should make an effort to understand what they are actually getting in the breed they choose and find appropriate outlets for their dogs
> 
> Unfortunately too many GSD owners don't realize that our dogs will do things other dogs won't.
> 
> Mine take our property, home and especially family very seriously.
> You would think they were going to kill someone either coming on to the property or to the door. They will settle on our approval of the person but that doesn't mean they will become best friends with the person.
> 
> I see that as typical, for the breed. I don't want them to stop doing that.
> 
> If some are not prepared or don't want the protective, aloof, aggressive characteristics that come with the breed then they will be disappointed.
> 
> Why try to alter the character of the breed so more people can own something they probably shouldn't.


:thumbup:

My GSD's are work dogs not pets. They have a job. I have expectations of them to perform that job. That doesn't mean that I don't love them or don't spend time with them. I treat them like I would treat any team mate. I take care of them with the expectation that they take care of me. We work together may grab a beer together but that's about it. I consider them my companions but they need to work first and foremost. 

My pit is a pet. He is expected to sleep in the bed, snuggle on the couch, love everyone who comes in the house and so on. I have no expectations of him other than being a well behaved dog and that lies on me. I still work him when I feel like it. He gets titles and certs put on him when I feel like it. If he can't accomplish something then we move on to something else. Completely different than the GSD's.


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## gsdsar

I disagree that a GSD can't be both a working dog and a pet. As someone who has raised, trained and certified multiple GSD as various types of SAR dogs, I say with certainty, they are my pets. 

As SAR dogs we do not work 8 hr shifts, or do things that bring me money( well FEMA sometimes) but they are my partners, friends and pets. They go with me places not involved in work, they socialize, the snuggle, they steal covers and hog the bed and they let me cry on their shoulder when needed. 

I would never own a dog that could not be both. EVER. 

Do I expect a lot from my working dogs? Yup. But I expect the same from all my dogs. No dog in my house is allowed to be a terror. 

I do have a remarkable bond with my working dogs. The training and trust is amazing. 

Breeds evolve or they die. Plain and simple. The lack of necessity of a true working dog had caused our breed to evolve. Has caused every breed to evolve. How many Goldens do you know still hunt? How many Labs? Why is their working history okay to poopoo but our breeds is not? Why is okay for us to tell someone to get a Golden as a strictly pet, but not a GSD? Beagle, Bloodhound, Greyhound, terriers, pointers, retrievers, all have a working beginning and a basically pet end. 

I see no reason a GSD, can't be a pet only. An active intelligent pet. Not everyone has the ability to or job to have a working dog. If that's the only "good" home for a GSD, then the breed will die. 

As for Schutzhund vs Working? Eh. You think the dogs knows the difference? To them, they are doing something you asked them to do. That's their job. We, the humans put the differentiation on them. The dogs don't care a whit. 

There are very few utility GSD now a days. As specified by the founder if the breed. Today's utility dogs go to obedience classes, play with kids, patrol the neighborhoods on a walk, do agility, Noseworks, maybe some Schutzhund, come home, play with the family and guard the kids bedroom doors at night. That's utility. Participating in only one aspect of a breed is not. Or only one venue. 

My $.02


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## jmdjack

The notion, expressed more than once in this thread, that working lines cannot live in a family setting and need non-stop "work" is not at all consistent with my experience. I have two working line dogs, a female and a male. The young male in particular has a pedigree filled with dogs known to be high octane. These dogs live in the house with me, my wife, and our two young children. These are not our first GSDs and while I would say my family, including the kids, have a pretty good understanding of dogs and GSDs in particular, we are not "hardcore working" dog folks. Our lives do not revolve around dogs (although the dogs are involved in nearly everything we do) and we do not participate in any dog sports or engage in any formal training activities (although there are training opportunities in everything). 

Simply put, our dogs are first and foremost family companions - darn good ones who are very easy to live with and excellent with our kids. We are an active family and do many outdoor activities in which we can include the dogs, but I have never felt they "need" jobs or anything. They are mellow and easy going in the house. However, when I ask for the drive to come out, it’s there and in no shortage. Then, when it's no longer "go time," they go back to being mellow, easy going dogs. 

My point is this. I think people with an understanding of GSDs and what they bring to the table (or should bring to the table), and a modicum of common sense should not have a problem with a well-bred working line dog. In fact, my young male has been the easiest dog I have had while at the same time being the "most" dog in terms of drive and other things. With that said, I do not think either dog would be a great fit for someone whose expectations are at odds with what a GSD is supposed to be. And, I do not think GSDs should be watered down to account for such people. 

Although I do not "work" my dogs (quotes used because I do not view sport as work), I personally do not want a GSD that is "easy" because it is missing something. I want a GSD that has everything a GSD is supposed to have - drive, protectiveness, courage, intelligence, aggression, etc. - and is "easy" because it has the temperament and nerve to handle it all and be a great family companion. And, for me, titles are just another piece of information in assessing how to get that.


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## cliffson1

Like I said....whatever....lol


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## martemchik

jmdjack said:


> My point is this. I think people with an understanding of GSDs and what they bring to the table (or should bring to the table), and a modicum of common sense should not have a problem with a well-bred working line dog. In fact, my young male has been the easiest dog I have had while at the same time being the "most" dog in terms of drive and other things. With that said, I do not think either dog would be a great fit for someone whose expectations are at odds with what a GSD is supposed to be. And, I do not think GSDs should be watered down to account for such people.


I completely 100% agree with you. The dogs shouldn't be watered down. But the fact is they are. And will continue to be. My dog has been to a school for 8 hours straight entertaining kids without getting tired, and then went to an obedience class for an hour and a half with me that night. I think I was more tired after that day than he was. But I'd be lying if I told you that my dog has what it takes to be a K9, and that any of his siblings could be K9s.

Call me skeptical, but I think if most of us looked at our dogs, we'd be lying if we said our dogs could do police work, or service work and that any of their siblings could. There are some of you out there that did find a litter with true workers in it, but the truth is the dogs have to have that special "IT" and that is very hard to find. Would I like it if all dogs were bred to have that IT? Sure...it would be great. But that just won't happen.

Trust me...I look for everything and more in my future dog. But the point is, without a close relationship to a breeder, where you can develop a lot of trust, to believe them when they tell you that they're breeding to a police dog is just stupid. I don't know how many times someone has come on here and said their puppy was out of a police dog and we all knew they were lying/got lied to by their breeder. If a breeder I knew, and had a personal relationship with (beyond that of a business transaction), told me that they were planning on breeding to a police dog...I'd trust them to do the right thing. But if you're telling me I should be able to trust someone I research for a few months, with the intent of purchasing a puppy, have a few phone conversations/emails, and check out their website...maybe at most check them out at the local SchH club...well that is probably not enough to believe them that their "police dog" is a true K9.


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## cliffson1

@ Martemchik, ..I have said on numerous occaisons that mosts of my posts are directed at breeders and not owners, and that's why I primarily post in the BREEDERS section of the forum. I have the utmost respect for your opinion as a "pet" owner and have never said anything different...so your continually mixing the sentiments of the two areas and claiming that I or others patronize you as an OWNER is simply wrong and misleading.


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## cliffson1

@ Martemchik......in closing I will just say that you as a self proclaimed pet owner, and I as a person who has bred dogs for years, we just see the breed differently. You look at it from an owners perspective in which you have been successful, and I look at it from a breeding perspective in which I have been successful.....how about we agree to both being comfortable in what we are and our experiences....fair enough?.....TC


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## Mrs.K

> By the way...no disrespect Mrs. K...but what exactly do YOU do with your dogs that makes you more than a "pet owner?"


Mentality. That is all it boils down to. And while I don't need to justify myself, just because I'm not on a team doesn't mean I don't work them. As a matter of fact, I've got more source in my freezer than most teams ever will get their hands on. 

However, when it comes down to mentality, I'm so not the average American pet owner and frankly, I don't want to be, because I'd like to keep my common dog sense. 

My dogs are companions and working dogs and they are treated as such. They were bred as Gebrauchshund (working dog) and they will be treated as such. I don't need to title or certify a dog to give the dog a purpose. 
The mentality in the US differs from what I was raised. To me the German Shepherd will always be a working dog, no matter if it is my companion or not and I will always treat the German Shepherd as such. 
Once you stop treating the breed as what it is, that's when they become pets and watered down. My dogs were bred with the intention to be a Gebrauchshund/Working Dog and that is what they are through and through.


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## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> Mentality. That is all it boils down to. And while I don't need to justify myself, just because I'm not on a team doesn't mean I don't work them. As a matter of fact, I've got more source in my freezer than most teams ever will get their hands on.
> 
> However, when it comes down to mentality, I'm so not the average American pet owner and frankly, I don't want to be, because I'd like to keep my common dog sense.
> 
> My dogs are companions and working dogs and they are treated as such. They were bred as Gebrauchshund (working dog) and they will be treated as such. I don't need to title or certify a dog to give the dog a purpose.
> The mentality in the US differs from what I was raised. To me the German Shepherd will always be a working dog, no matter if it is my companion or not and I will always treat the German Shepherd as such.
> Once you stop treating the breed as what it is, that's when they become pets and watered down. My dogs were bred with the intention to be a Gebrauchshund/Working Dog and that is what they are through and through.


Makes sense...but is very subjective. I'm looking for a line, what makes one a working owner and one a pet owner?

My mentality is that of what I would believe is a pet owner, and yet I "work" my dog more than 99.99% of people that I know with dogs and GSDs. Maybe its hard for me to call it work because I love to do it?  But the fact is, I see a working dog as one that does have a written out job, all day, every day. That wouldn't fit most of us because its hard to say that agility, obedience, tracking is really a job unless there is an end goal of some sort. I guess I just don't see a game of fetch as working a dog, or a hike as working a dog...is it more than your average American owner will do? Probably, but its not work in the true definition of the word (or at least my interpretation of it).

By saying its mentality...most of the owners I know could be considered "working" owners. They like to train, they're part of a club, they take an active interest in their dog's life and make sure that their lives are interconnected and not just something that's there when the family has nothing to do.

I think we're all on the same page...just maybe a different paragraph. Maybe what defines the dog is what the owner chooses to do with it, and the dog should just be able to do that. I'm personally very upset when I'm training a new owner and their young dog and its clear that the dog isn't interested and doesn't even have the drive to do simple obedience. Or when someone raises their voice just a little when yelling "NO" and the dog shuts down. I know that that's not how a GSD is supposed to react to those types of things. It would certainly be nice if all GSDs could do anything the owner asked of them or decided to get into...be it the simplest of rally trials or the most difficult of SAR deployments.


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## Mrs.K

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> My GSD's are work dogs not pets. They have a job. I have expectations of them to perform that job. That doesn't mean that I don't love them or don't spend time with them. I treat them like I would treat any team mate. I take care of them with the expectation that they take care of me. We work together may grab a beer together but that's about it. I consider them my companions but they need to work first and foremost.
> 
> My pit is a pet. He is expected to sleep in the bed, snuggle on the couch, love everyone who comes in the house and so on. I have no expectations of him other than being a well behaved dog and that lies on me. I still work him when I feel like it. He gets titles and certs put on him when I feel like it. If he can't accomplish something then we move on to something else. Completely different than the GSD's.


Oh come one, you snuggle with your GSD's on the couch too, aren't ya? 

In my opinion there is a difference between a pet and a companion. I'd say with certainty, that while I treat mine as working dogs and companions they are more loved and better taken care off than the majority of pets I've seen in and around this area. 

I have a lot of respect for my dogs and they will always be respected and loved for who and what they are.


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## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> Makes sense...but is very subjective. I'm looking for a line, what makes one a working owner and one a pet owner?
> 
> My mentality is that of what I would believe is a pet owner, and yet I "work" my dog more than 99.99% of people that I know with dogs and GSDs. Maybe its hard for me to call it work because I love to do it?  But the fact is, I see a working dog as one that does have a written out job, all day, every day. That wouldn't fit most of us because its hard to say that agility, obedience, tracking is really a job unless there is an end goal of some sort. I guess I just don't see a game of fetch as working a dog, or a hike as working a dog...is it more than your average American owner will do? Probably, but its not work in the true definition of the word (or at least my interpretation of it).
> 
> By saying its mentality...most of the owners I know could be considered "working" owners. They like to train, they're part of a club, they take an active interest in their dog's life and make sure that their lives are interconnected and not just something that's there when the family has nothing to do.
> 
> I think we're all on the same page...just maybe a different paragraph. Maybe what defines the dog is what the owner chooses to do with it, and the dog should just be able to do that. I'm personally very upset when I'm training a new owner and their young dog and its clear that the dog isn't interested and doesn't even have the drive to do simple obedience. Or when someone raises their voice just a little when yelling "NO" and the dog shuts down. I know that that's not how a GSD is supposed to react to those types of things. It would certainly be nice if all GSDs could do anything the owner asked of them or decided to get into...be it the simplest of rally trials or the most difficult of SAR deployments.


And there is the difference. Where I'm from Schutzhund dogs are working dogs. Working line breeders are breeding working dogs, the German Shepherd as a Herding Breed, which is under the Category "Gebrauchshund" which literally translates into "Working Dogs". 

The reason I view them as working dogs is not because of police dog work or SAR or whatever else but because the German Shepherd is and always will be a working dog. 

I think it's Interpretation.


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## Jack's Dad

jmdjack and Mrs.K .

As an owner of two working line dogs myself, you two covered what I've been trying to say through about 3 threads now.

The breed needs to be what it was meant to be and potential owners or those who already own need to realize what awesome dogs they have.

Learn how to handle the GSD and have a great companion for life. 

Lets not make them something they are not supposed to be.

Other breeds shouldn't be watered down either IMO.

Let Beagles be Beagles and so on.


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## martemchik

But this is what confuses me...I don't see many people not treating their GSDs like working dogs. They train them, they do things with them, they respect them for what they're capable of. They view them as working dogs...

But the discussion is about the watering down of the breed? Well none of those dogs could ever be a K9 or probably do Schutzhund if their lives depended on it...so when cliff talks about breeding for the highest of excellence of working dog, and we start discussing that its all about how you treat the dog or view the dog, those two things don't equate. Just because I look at my dog as a working dog, doesn't make him one (although he is, I was meant as a general term not myself personally).


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## Liesje

Would you keep the dog if he didn't stack up? Or even if the dog is a fine GSD capable of real work but just not what you are looking to breed?


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## carmspack

this is incredibly sad because somewhere breeders have failed "
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Cassidy's Mom*  
_...unfortunate that there are so many bad examples of the breed out there._

Which is why Tanner will be my last GSD. I have lived with and loved this breed for almost 50 years, but I am done.
Sheilah " 

this is incredibly sad -- because it is true and breeders are failing "....the breed should be able to work from seeing eye to SAR to LE or Military, within all those vocations are the different levels of family that a dog can easily adjust to. But people are breeding dogs that fall below the level of any work. This would seem to me to me to indicate something is lacking in the breed, "


-


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## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> But this is what confuses me...I don't see many people not treating their GSDs like working dogs. They train them, they do things with them, they respect them for what they're capable of. They view them as working dogs...
> 
> But the discussion is about the watering down of the breed? Well none of those dogs could ever be a K9 or probably do Schutzhund if their lives depended on it...so when cliff talks about breeding for the highest of excellence of working dog, and we start discussing that its all about how you treat the dog or view the dog, those two things don't equate. Just because I look at my dog as a working dog, doesn't make him one (although he is, I was meant as a general term not myself personally).


With me it is only slowly sinking in what a big issue there is within the breed because I have been sheltered and had the honor to only know the best of the best of the German Shepherds where even those, that got washed out, still had a purpose in life. 

We never had Seizure issues, never had Heart problems, DM or cancer. I've never been confronted with all those problems until I got onto this forum. A whole new world of the German Shepherd opened up to me. 

I never even knew that DM existed, I was shocked when I saw dogs with wheels and all these issues. That is not what should be done to a proud working breed like the GSD. It hurts me every time I see a proud breed being carried around in a wheel barrow and I couldn't do it to one of my dogs. 

Anyhow, my point is. I was so sheltered from only being around great working dogs that it never even occurred to me that there is such a big issue and when people talk about half dog half frog style dogs, I am like "And what about the working lines?" the breed doesn't consist of only the Showdogs, and most of the time, I wouldn't even consider such a frog creature as German Shepherd. They are man-made abominations but certainly NOT _my _German Shepherd.

Sometimes I wonder if it is really as bad as everyone thinks it is or if we only perceive it as bad because this Forum is such a concentrated place. 

All I have to do is call my father and tell him what I want and he will find it for me. Once he can't find the type of dog that I want, THAN it's time to panic but just look at those few breeders on this forum that produce the creme of the crop. 

Cliff, Carmen, Wildhaus, Johnson Haus and all the others on this forum like Lee, Christine etc. 

All their dogs are working. All their dogs are capable to do whatever they are asked to do and they would still produce these type of dogs if they weren't titling and I know, one day I will have my litter with Nala and if all she has is a Lure Coursing title 

She'll be my foundation bitch, one day...


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## Jack's Dad

Carmen, I'm glad your back and yes it is sad.

Martemchik.

I do think semantics is part of the problem. Being bred with the capacity to work means just that.

Let's say same working line breeder produces a litter of four. One goes to LE, one to SAR and the other two to companion/pet homes. One of the pet homes does agility and the other simply exercises the dog and takes it hiking etc.

They all have outlets, the one hiking and running around with its family is doing its job just as much as the one that went to LE. The difference is training. All things being equal, you could swap the two dogs. They don't know the word work, they are fulfilled doing what they are doing.

It's not necessary to change the breed. It is necessary to breed dogs with solid nerves and temperament and for those who would purchase them to know what they are getting.

It's a fun ride with our GSDs.


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## carmspack

"My point of view is coming from the people I see own GSDs...and trust me, they wouldn't be able to deal with a medium drive working line. "

then why in the world , or what in the world is forcing them to own a GSD? - choose something appropriate , or if you like the "look" then get a Shiloh or one of the new creations that is ersatz .


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## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> Carmen, I'm glad your back and yes it is sad.
> 
> Martemchik.
> 
> I do think semantics is part of the problem. Being bred with the capacity to work means just that.
> 
> Let's say same working line breeder produces a litter of four. One goes to LE, one to SAR and the other two to companion/pet homes. One of the pet homes does agility and the other simply exercises the dog and takes it hiking etc.
> 
> They all have outlets, the one hiking and running around with its family is doing its job just as much as the one that went to LE. The difference is training. All things being equal, you could swap the two dogs. They don't know the word work, they are fulfilled doing what they are doing.
> 
> It's not necessary to change the breed. It is necessary to breed dogs with solid nerves and temperament and for those who would purchase them to know what they are getting.
> 
> It's a fun ride with our GSDs.


And isn't that what Wildhaus and Crooked Creek, for example is producing? One titles, the other doesn't. 

I think that not every breeder is failing. There are plenty of breeders out there that are producing exactly that. There will always be BYB's but as long as there are people out there producing exactly that, the breed will survive.


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## carmspack

The breed will survive but in what form?
One barely recognizable as a gsd? And even so you have to consider all the pressures from not being able to lease an apartment with a gsd in tow, get insurance , anti breed legislation. 
I'm not so sure --- some of those "plenty of breeders" are getting long in the tooth , getting older , retiring because of personal health -- this is why , I believe, Cliff continues to raise the same thread --- to inform the new-to-breed , from all aspects. 
On the forum we have a young lady who wants to become a breeder and asked to be mentored--- even so , she was enthusiastic and jumped the gun (twice) (maybe again?) --- and everyone told her why her decisions were contrary to what she wanted to accomplish.


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## x11

what is this rubbish that breeders have failed, if they are selling puppies and lining their pockets then the breeders themselves do not consider themselves failures, irrelevant what anyone else thinks???

lets face it most of the people buying GSD's would not know a good dog if it bit them in the face, the biggest issues most gsd owners have is blocking any sign of working traits in their over eager puppy just being a puppy and deciding which color bandana/collar best highlights their dogs eyes.

Mrs K with respect, you seem to hold a lot of stock in the german system - are you not looking at germany with rose tinted glasses, the german system is as corrupt decadent and pathetic in general as crufts and the akc. why is the german millitary and leo etc buying predominately mals for working dogs and not there own home gorwn GERMAN shepherd for the GERMAN police and the GERMAN army instead they buy dogs from, BELGIUM, SWEDEN, FRANCE, NETHERLANDS....???

have you not seen the pathetic YT clips of weak sv dogs being coached by pet friendly decoys to take a bite and stay on the bite under trial conditions - it is shameful and hard to watch these poor cowardly dogs that are born and bred in germany being titled in the german system, so sad for the dogs o be put thru that and shame on the breeders who just seem to laugh it off.

cliff please don't give up on us few newbs that actually are trying to learn and do the right thing by the breed.


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## Mrs.K

LOL
X

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jack's Dad

[/QUOTE]
the biggest issues most gsd owners have is blocking any sign of working traits in their over eager puppy just being a puppy and deciding which color bandana/collar best highlights their dogs eyes.

Too funny not to give some recognition.

Anything else on your mind x11.


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## x11

yeah i am starting to think my butt looks too big in my training apron - thoughts?


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## Mrs.K

x11 said:


> what is this rubbish that breeders have failed, if they are selling puppies and lining their pockets then the breeders themselves do not consider themselves failures, irrelevant what anyone else thinks???
> 
> lets face it most of the people buying GSD's would not know a good dog if it bit them in the face, the biggest issues most gsd owners have is blocking any sign of working traits in their over eager puppy just being a puppy and deciding which color bandana/collar best highlights their dogs eyes.
> 
> Mrs K with respect, you seem to hold a lot of stock in the german system - are you not looking at germany with rose tinted glasses, the german system is as corrupt decadent and pathetic in general as crufts and the akc. why is the german millitary and leo etc buying predominately mals for working dogs and not there own home gorwn GERMAN shepherd for the GERMAN police and the GERMAN army instead they buy dogs from, BELGIUM, SWEDEN, FRANCE, NETHERLANDS....???
> 
> have you not seen the pathetic YT clips of weak sv dogs being coached by pet friendly decoys to take a bite and stay on the bite under trial conditions - it is shameful and hard to watch these poor cowardly dogs that are born and bred in germany being titled in the german system, so sad for the dogs o be put thru that and shame on the breeders who just seem to laugh it off.
> 
> cliff please don't give up on us few newbs that actually are trying to learn and do the right thing by the breed.


LOL I am the biggest critic about corruption out there and the one person actually constantly bringing it up.

That being said. 30 years ago there were the same "oh my gosh this breed is doomed" discussion as today.
If the police was solely looking for Mals they wouldnt be paying for expensive advertisement in the SV papers. There is a lot of exaggeration going on. Trust me, there are still GERMAN shepherds born and raised in Germany going to the German police.

Dont believe everything that is coming from the Bild Zeitung which is the equivalent to the British Sun. Ask five departments and they will all give you a different answer.



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## mycobraracr

Mrs.K said:


> There is a lot of exaggeration going on. Trust me, there are still GERMAN shepherds born and raised in Germany going to the German police.


True! Everyone seems to think military and LE is nothing but mals and dutchies now days. That is so far from truth. Fact is mals and dutchies have a whole other can of problems of their own.


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## x11

lets talk actual numbers and not hype, emotion or opinion. anyone have the official stats on that to take the opinion out of it. seems the few leo and mwd dogs that post on forums substantiate the anecdotal claim that the gsd is overall the minority working dogs and fading fast. but without being able to produce the stats myself i will assume i am in error.


as far as the sv dogs having no business in schuts actually titling under dubious conditions/decoys i have seen enough with my own eyes to know that it is true albeit on YT.


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## Mrs.K

x11 said:


> what is this rubbish that breeders have failed, if they are selling puppies and lining their pockets then the breeders themselves do not consider themselves failures, irrelevant what anyone else thinks???
> 
> lets face it most of the people buying GSD's would not know a good dog if it bit them in the face, the biggest issues most gsd owners have is blocking any sign of working traits in their over eager puppy just being a puppy and deciding which color bandana/collar best highlights their dogs eyes.
> 
> Mrs K with respect, you seem to hold a lot of stock in the german system - are you not looking at germany with rose tinted glasses, the german system is as corrupt decadent and pathetic in general as crufts and the akc. why is the german millitary and leo etc buying predominately mals for working dogs and not there own home gorwn GERMAN shepherd for the GERMAN police and the GERMAN army instead they buy dogs from, BELGIUM, SWEDEN, FRANCE, NETHERLANDS....???
> 
> have you not seen the pathetic YT clips of weak sv dogs being coached by pet friendly decoys to take a bite and stay on the bite under trial conditions - it is shameful and hard to watch these poor cowardly dogs that are born and bred in germany being titled in the german system, so sad for the dogs o be put thru that and shame on the breeders who just seem to laugh it off.
> 
> cliff please don't give up on us few newbs that actually are trying to learn and do the right thing by the breed.


Oh and one more thing, the German Police relies on a budget. They have around 1500 euro for a green dog. The German Shepherd is simply too expensive. People make more money exporting rather than selling within in the country.

Malinois are much cheaper than the German Shepherd, which may change since the market is shifting so I wouldnt be surprised if the Malinois was becoming more expensive. 
The same is happening with Czech dogs. If people only knew that some of those huge kennels are pumping out litter over litter over litter...

The Malinois has its own issues within the breed...there is no such thing as the perfect breed without issues. Wait until the market oversatuates.. It will happen eventually with every breed.

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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> "My point of view is coming from the people I see own GSDs...and trust me, they wouldn't be able to deal with a medium drive working line. "
> 
> then why in the world , or what in the world is forcing them to own a GSD? - choose something appropriate , or if you like the "look" then get a Shiloh or one of the new creations that is ersatz .


No one is forcing them to own a GSD...the WANT one. People want an assault rifle...and although I don't think they should have one, they still buy one. You can not sell your dogs to whom ever you choose...but the fact is those people will find someone to sell them a dog...and it might be someone that produces just as good of a dog. With enough money, they'll ship in a green dog from Germany and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.


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## martemchik

I did want to add...I don't see that many bad dogs...or terrible tempered dogs that are dangers to society. I see dogs that have less than desired temperament and drive for ME and most of the "working world." What one of YOU thinks is standard temperament, is way different than what another breeder believes, so there's really no judging them as being wrong or less correct than any one of you.

The US military predominately uses Malanois...mostly due to the cost and their versatility. They're smaller (require less food) and so cheaper to keep. They are also lighter allowing handlers to carry their dogs on their shoulders much easier. The US military has a Malanois breeding program and I'd actually be quite shocked if they had many (if any) GSDs. Nothing to do with ability...just a smaller package. If the US military wanted to breed GSDs they'd be just as successful at producing amazing GSDs like they do amazing Malanois.


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## Cheyanna

martemchik said:


> I did want to add...I don't see that many bad dogs...or terrible tempered dogs that are dangers to society. I see dogs that have less than desired temperament and drive for ME and most of the "working world." What one of YOU thinks is standard temperament, is way different than what another breeder believes, so there's really no judging them as being wrong or less correct than any one of you.
> 
> The US military predominately uses Malanois...mostly due to the cost and their versatility. They're smaller (require less food) and so cheaper to keep. They are also lighter allowing handlers to carry their dogs on their shoulders much easier. The US military has a Malanois breeding program and I'd actually be quite shocked if they had many (if any) GSDs. Nothing to do with ability...just a smaller package. If the US military wanted to breed GSDs they'd be just as successful at producing amazing GSDs like they do amazing Malanois.


Interestingly enough, the North Korean military breeds and trains GSDs.


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## onyx'girl

Cheyanna said:


> Interestingly enough, the North Korean military breeds and trains GSDs.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And they all look like they are from the same lines. Clones? lol 
Now North Korea releases bizarre video of military dogs attacking effigy of enemy minister as they again threaten to attack | Mail Online


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## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> I did want to add...I don't see that many bad dogs...or terrible tempered dogs that are dangers to society. I see dogs that have less than desired temperament and drive for ME and most of the "working world." What one of YOU thinks is standard temperament, is way different than what another breeder believes, so there's really no judging them as being wrong or less correct than any one of you.
> 
> The US military predominately uses Malanois...mostly due to the cost and their versatility. They're smaller (require less food) and so cheaper to keep. They are also lighter allowing handlers to carry their dogs on their shoulders much easier. The US military has a Malanois breeding program and I'd actually be quite shocked if they had many (if any) GSDs. Nothing to do with ability...just a smaller package. If the US military wanted to breed GSDs they'd be just as successful at producing amazing GSDs like they do amazing Malanois.


Funny thing. One of my friends husband is a kennelmaster. They got their dogs from the von Liche kennels. The majority is Shepherds. They are stationed here with us.
Even more interesting. From the same division but different unit...one of my Clients husband, deployed as mwd handler and guess what, they have a Pit Bull within the Unit. Most popular dog in the Unit from what I hear. Also have quite a few Labs but the majority is still Shepherds. Same here on post and with the local police. There are some Mals but it isnt the majority.
Mightvalso be a geographical thing.

It really depends on the units and where they get their dogs from. 

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## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> Funny thing. One of my friends husband is a kennelmaster. They got their dogs from the von Liche kennels. The majority is Shepherds. They are stationed here with us.
> Even more interesting. From the same division but different unit...one of my Clients husband, deployed as mwd handler and guess what, they have a Pit Bull within the Unit. Most popular dog in the Unit from what I hear. Also have quite a few Labs but the majority is still Shepherds. Same here on post and with the local police. There are some Mals but it isnt the majority.
> Mightvalso be a geographical thing.
> 
> It really depends on the units and where they get their dogs from.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That surprises me that the different units actually have a choice. I know that most dogs come out of the Lackland breeding program. It might also depend on the type of dog you need. I've seen the pits being used for drug/bomb detection, but never as a patrol or all-around dog or apprehension dog.

I know the Milwaukee PD has a pitty as a drug dog...but all their patrol dogs and apprehension dogs are GSD imports from Eastern Europe. It is nice to hear though that the different units/branches still use the GSD. I know my club just donated some money to the local PD (suburb) so that they could get two new dogs and they WILL be GSDs. The handlers are even going to join the club and do some training with us (no bite work).


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## Mrs.K

They are tedd's.
I doubt they had a choice which dogs they were getting from von Liche. 

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## mycobraracr

martemchik said:


> The US military predominately uses Malanois...mostly due to the cost and their versatility. They're smaller (require less food) and so cheaper to keep. They are also lighter allowing handlers to carry their dogs on their shoulders much easier. The US military has a Malanois breeding program and I'd actually be quite shocked if they had many (if any) GSDs. Nothing to do with ability...just a smaller package. If the US military wanted to breed GSDs they'd be just as successful at producing amazing GSDs like they do amazing Malanois.


 
Just curious where you got this info from?


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## carmspack

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_"My point of view is coming from the people I see own GSDs...and trust me, they wouldn't be able to deal with a medium drive working line. "

then why in the world , or what in the world is forcing them to own a GSD? - choose something appropriate , or if you like the "look" then get a Shiloh or one of the new creations that is ersatz ._

No one is forcing them to own a GSD...the WANT one"

Well actually from the original post which stated that those people could not handle a medium drive dog -- the answer is they do not want a GSD they want a dog that L O O K S like one . That is the difference. 

Once again there is a standard which sets up an expectation of what one should get when choosing a breed . Or else what is the purpose of having distinct breeds with distinct physical and character differences.


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## cliffson1

The military attempted a breeding program in the seventies, at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Md. It produced the Bio- Sensor dogs fore the Army....it was an unmitigated disaster, so they discontinued the program. If you want a really serious intelligent working approach to the breed nationally and individually, do some research on what they are doing and have been doing in Sweden for years in terms of military breeding.


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## carmspack

Yes Cliff -- as was explained to me by a Swedish military k9 handler their national breeding program is just that -- a program with generations of in-house , selected, directed genetics so that you get a high rate of predictability .
Same story with UK's London police k9 breeding program.

North American attempts at replicating the success tend not to work out because there is no plan - not a long term one. I know of attempts that have started, been abandoned , tried again many years later . I think the big difference is that in those attempts there is a best-to-best approach , more phenotype to phenotype , without necessarily recognizing whether what the considered breeding partner shows is based in deep genetics or from good training.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Yes Cliff -- as was explained to me by a Swedish military k9 handler their national breeding program is just that -- a program with generations of in-house , selected, directed genetics so that you get a high rate of predictability .
> Same story with UK's London police k9 breeding program.
> 
> North American attempts at replicating the success tend not to work out because there is no plan - not a long term one. I know of attempts that have started, been abandoned , tried again many years later . I think the big difference is that in those attempts there is a best-to-best approach , more phenotype to phenotype , without necessarily recognizing whether what the considered breeding partner shows is based in deep genetics or from good training.


One thing I have wondered regarding Guide Dogs. 

Are they actually still having the same requirements as they had 30 years ago? Would the dogs from 30 years ago actually still pass as Guide/Service Dogs or would the fail since the requirements became more strict? 

Also, what about those that don't pass as Guide Dogs but make excellent Police Dogs? Wasn't there recently something in the news about a dog that was washed out of the program but then sold as Police Dog? 

Just because a dog doesn't work out in one venue, doesn't mean the dog can't do anything else. 

The German Shepherd still is one of the most versatile breed and sometimes I wonder if the "Oh my gosh, this breed is doomed" predictions aren't a weeeee bit exaggerated.


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## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> One thing I have wondered regarding Guide Dogs.
> 
> Are they actually still having the same requirements as they had 30 years ago? Would the dogs from 30 years ago actually still pass as Guide/Service Dogs or would the fail since the requirements became more strict?
> 
> Also, what about those that don't pass as Guide Dogs but make excellent Police Dogs? Wasn't there recently something in the news about a dog that was washed out of the program but then sold as Police Dog?
> 
> Just because a dog doesn't work out in one venue, doesn't mean the dog can't do anything else.
> 
> The German Shepherd still is one of the most versatile breed and sometimes I wonder if the "Oh my gosh, this breed is doomed" predictions aren't a weeeee bit exaggerated.


It was turned into a detection dog...not an apprehension or all around dog. So although its still a K9, there is a difference in what it was doing.

Carmen...I'm not sure what you keep trying to prove...that's exactly what I was saying...people want a dog that looks like a GSD but doesn't act like what most of us expect. I'm not saying its right...I'm just saying its what happens. I also refuse to discuss teaching them that its wrong for them to own a GSD (even a water downed one) just because I or WE think the dog's temperament isn't up to par with the standard. Anytime you tell someone they SHOULDN'T own something, they go out and get it just to prove you wrong.


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## cliffson1

A detection dog is a working dog, a police dog is a working dog, a SAR dog is a working dog, a military dog is a working dog, a seeing-eye dog is a working dog .....they all are working or providing a service for man....the continum is very varied just as the GS uses as utility dog is very varied. BUT there are many breeders today that are breeding dogs that cant do NONE of those things! they lack nerve, courage, nobility, and confidence, to be able to work in service for man at any of these vocations.....we should never encourage these breeders I dont care what people want. Some people are quick to crucify BYB, but if you producing dogs that dont serve the standard between the ears, are you any different then the person breeding dysplastic dogs, shy dogs, fear biters, etc.....Nope! Breeders like anything else must proof their stock whether it is titles or certs and even advanced ancillary training to maintain the traits the breed was created for.


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## G-burg

> Breeders like anything else must proof their stock whether it is titles or certs and even advanced ancillary training to maintain the traits the breed was created for.


:thumbup:

In the end.. The breeders with the knowledge and know how are always going to produce the traits for those of us who want a true working dog! 

There are still a lot of good breeders in this country that are doing just that! Who haven't been side tracked by other driving forces!


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## björn

Guidedogs as far as I know shouldn´t be like a policedog where you need a certain aggresion and much "motor" for the search/trackingwork. Even if you have a policedog as a goal in the breedings there will be dogs suited for different directions. When the state breed GSDs in sweden the jobs the dogs was able to do was depending on the drives/mentality of the dog, so in the same litter maybe one was send back to the fosterparent if they wanted it as a pet, maybe one was policedog and another one a sentrydog etc. Guidedogs they breed labradors for, even if they also tried to cross GSDs and labradors for the ultimate guidedog.

Even if the breedingprogram is managed by the state or civilian breeders, I think the multipurpose policedog is a good goal, afterall sports like SCH and others is originally supposed to mimic the policedog job, and most work today you need a dog intressted in nosework or than can do bitework or a combination of both like the dual purpose policedog.


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## AGK

On the topic of service GSDs. I work with organizations training service dogs and many GSD breeding programs are being dropped because too many people are afraid of them. No organization I know of will place a breed of dog with someone inherently afraid of the breed. Fewer people have fear issues with Labs, Goldens, etc... Most of the trainers I know still own and work their own GSDs.


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