# First Time Dog Park Aggression



## JacksMama (Nov 6, 2012)

Hey everyone! :help: I'm new here and I'm hoping that I can get some advice from veteran GSD owners or at the very least some input on what happened to me this morning. My apologies in advance for the long winded post, but I'd rather give more info than less so that you can make the most informed call.

I own a year old GSD/hound dog mix named Jack. He's an adoption so unfortunately I can't tell you his exact age. The vet estimates him at a year to a year and two months, no more. He's incredibly sweet and well behaved. He has been socialized properly during his puppy stage - I took him to meet new people, new dogs, new places (pet stores, different parks, etc.). As I was a graduate student and money was tight, I couldn't afford puppy kindergarten but I made sure to work on all the commands like sit, stay, come, down, leave it, etc. He did really well with most of them although he does still get distracted when there are other dogs around. 

Over the past year, I moved twice. The first time was in-state to a more rural setting and more recently (two months ago) clear across the country to a big city. He's gone from living near a dog park where he would enjoy hanging out with his "friends" to being rather isolated in this new city. To add to that - I got him neutered upon our arrival here which meant 3 weeks of rest while the stitches healed. A further (unfortunate) development arose when they did his blood work for the neuter. Jack was Heartworm positive. He's undergone treatment and the subsequent month's rest (finished October 24th).

That whole time he's been rather isolated with only our other dog, Lola, for company. I decided to take him back to the dog park down here to see if we could get him back into the swing of having friends and enjoying himself.

I took him yesterday morning and he seemed to enjoy himself. I noticed some foaming at the mouth which I chalked up to a potential side effect with his meds. The vet seemed to concur when I talked to him. After this morning and some further research, I'm wondering if it was dog related stress rather than long term effects of the 10 mg of prednisone he was on.

So here is where it gets nitty-gritty. My boy has _never_ shown any kind of aggression before. He's incredibly gentle with my young nephews (3 & 5) and incredibly attentive to my terminally ill father, even going so far as to walk beside him when my father starts to tremble and lose his balance.

We arrived at the dog park today and he was immediately charged by what I thought was a "welcoming committee" - 4 dogs, mixed breeds, his size or a little bigger. Two of them tried to mount him. Jack had his hackles raised and showed his teeth to indicate that he didn't appreciate the gestures. I thought that it settled the matter because both Jack and I walked away from the situation to diffuse a potentially nasty meet and greet. We continued walking down the park and it seemed like every dog who came to sniff him was walking stiff-legged and standing with pushy body language. Jack continued to have his hackles raised and would occasionally growl. 

I started getting nervous with the entire situation and tried getting him to a clear area where I could leash him and leave because the air was definitely too charged with dog tension. Two other dogs came over and began trying to mount Jack as I was attempting to leash him to leave. Jack snapped at them and actively growl/barked showing marked aggression with the whole fiasco. He ran after a particularly pushy boxer while snapping and barking in what was a DEFINITELY aggressive manner. Meanwhile, I'm yelling "NO!" and trying to grab him while the rest of the owners in the park just looked on. (IMHO, they were completely useless and should have controlled their dogs as I was the only fool scrambling around trying to be a responsible owner.)

So - advice? thoughts? I don't want any aggression/aggressive behaviors getting a foothold as he's such a sweet dog. Am I just being an alarmist and nervous Mama? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm also hoping that you don't mind offering advice for a GSD mix. I'm not certain if this is a forum for just pure-breeds. If so, pardon my error. Thanks again!


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess I'd look at it from a human perspective, how would you like all these people charging you, with 'attitude', and pushy behaviors?

If you've never had an agression problem with him prior, I can see this as him defending himself, going into defense mode. Sounds like the other dogs were ganging up on the 'new' kid, pushing buttons, and yours had enough.

Doesn't sound like a pack of a dogs I would want mine hanging with


----------



## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

This is why I don't do dog parks. You might end up with injuries or a dog that has issues from being attacked and I think it was just your dog defending himself if you have never had problems before


----------



## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

The other dogs were being inappropriate in their greeting IMO. If that happened to either of my guys, they would have reacted more harshly than your dog. I take mine to a dog park but it's acres of land with numerous walking trails. The dogs seem to keep moving for the most part and I don't see that kind of behaviour. Perhaps you could try during a quieter time and see how he likes it. I don't blame him for reacting that way though. I would too!


----------



## JacksMama (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks y'all. I guess I'm being alarmist. It was completely uncharacteristic with his normal happy-go-lucky self so I wondered if it might have been stress due to either illness or the moves. Thanks for the reassurances!


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think your pup has gone through a great deal of stress in a very short amount of time. He's been adopted. He's moved twice. He's been neutered. He's undergone heartworm treatment. That a whole lot of things for your pup to deal with. 

If he were mine, I wouldn't stress because of this one encounter. But I'd give him a little more time to adjust. Give him some security. He must have been giving out signals from the moment he entered the park that he was insecure and unsure. The other dogs picked up on that and zeroed in on him. 

I'd go back to the beginning. Treat him as you did when you first got him. Take baby steps. Socialize him, take him (on leash) out and let him gain back his sea legs. Give him a chance to build confidence within himself. Create a schedule for him and keep him on it. Throw a party EVERY time he shows good behavior. Have your entire family join in. If you take him someplace and you see he is starting to stress, remove him from the situation. 

Baby steps. Give him time.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I agree with Jakota and fuzzybunny! If someone approached ME like that, I'd snap at them too!!!


----------



## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

And BTW, ANYONE is welcome here. Purebred owners or not. And I totally agree with the above posts. Your poor pup was only reacting to lots of stress, trying to defend himself. I agree with Lilie's post.


----------



## JacksMama (Nov 6, 2012)

Lilie said:


> If he were mine, I wouldn't stress because of this one encounter.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...



Thanks, Lilie.  I really appreciate this. I was thinking along the same lines although this is the first time I've had to deal with any behavior like this. As a "first time" dog owner (other than the dogs my family owned) and it seems like I'm constantly asking everyone for their advice! I'm aware that I have tons to learn. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JacksMama said:


> Thanks, Lilie.  I really appreciate this. I was thinking along the same lines although this is the first time I've had to deal with any behavior like this. As a "first time" dog owner (other than the dogs my family owned) and it seems like I'm constantly asking everyone for their advice! I'm aware that I have tons to learn. Thanks for the advice.


Remember, you can control your dog but you can't always control your dog's enviornment. You pup sounds like he is a solid, well behaved dog. He's just dealing with stress right now. 

There are tons and tons of great threads through out this forum that provide great ideas for games with your dog that help build confidence. Lots of videos, links etc. that are truly helpful. 

Also - there are many, many mixed breeds on this board as well. The only rule we have is that you HAVE to post pictures! We love pictures! 

Welcome to the forum! I look forward to seeing your pup progress back to his ole' self.


----------



## JacksMama (Nov 6, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Also - there are many, many mixed breeds on this board as well. The only rule we have is that you HAVE to post pictures! We love pictures!
> 
> Welcome to the forum! I look forward to seeing your pup progress back to his ole' self.


Yes Ma'am! Here you go. Pictures from the "candid" file. Both times - caught on places he knew he couldn't be on. My favorite is the couch - he's got this "What?? Why are you freaking out about this?" look on his face.

And thanks for the welcome, both from you and everyone.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Welcome Jack'sMama, 
I'd have to agree with Lilie, poor guy had some massive changes in environment. It sounds like he had to escalate his "NO" or "Knock it off" when dogs mounted him. More like a "I MEAN NO!!!!!"
And, to be honest....Boxers just don't take "NO" unless it's a in your face lots of exclamation points put on the end of the statement. Bulldogs are the same way.
If I was leashing my dog and a dog came up and mounted her then I'd be the one to literally shove it off. That's a space issue.


----------



## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree about boxers. Both mine are very dog friendly but this boxer at the park got both of them at the point of growling because that boxer was so aggressive with them including trying to hump them. And what was with those other lazy owners at that park? Did they think it was funny that you were trying to control the situation while they sat on their lard butts and watched while they're uncontrolable dogs acted out?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jack is a cutie pie! He has that old soul look in his eyes.


----------



## JacksMama (Nov 6, 2012)

Nikitta said:


> And what was with those other lazy owners at that park? Did they think it was funny that you were trying to control the situation while they sat on their lard butts and watched while they're uncontrolable dogs acted out?


Honestly, I have no idea. I was so frustrated that I actually looked at one of the men and pretty much said "Could you grab your dog? Please?" It was met with blank stares. I'm petite and while I can handle my dog, handling four of them starts becoming challenging.

CarrieJ: as for shoving off the humpers, I did at first when their owners refused to "engage" in the situation but I was focused on trying to remove Jack from the rapidly escalating tension. I wondered if my tension with the situation may have fed into Jack's aggression. Uh. It was just a mess.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Nikitta said:


> And BTW, ANYONE is welcome here. Purebred owners or not. And I totally agree with the above posts. Your poor pup was only reacting to lots of stress, trying to defend himself. I agree with Lilie's post.


Agree - your guy was defending himself.

Personally, while better to all get along, I would much rather have a dog who will defend himself (might have to do so for you one day!) than one who runs behind his owner or goes belly up when challenged.

And don't forget, your guy is starting to grow up as well.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BTW, many times "mounting" is a dominance behavior not a sexual one. Like a dog putting a paw on the back of another dog. Can be "instant fight"!

Either one would cause my 5yo male GSD to "defend" himself with vigour!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

JacksMama said:


> Honestly, I have no idea. I was so frustrated that I actually looked at one of the men and pretty much said "Could you grab your dog? Please?" It was met with blank stares. I'm petite and while I can handle my dog, handling four of them starts becoming challenging.
> 
> CarrieJ: as for shoving off the humpers, I did at first when their owners refused to "engage" in the situation but I was focused on trying to remove Jack from the rapidly escalating tension. I wondered if my tension with the situation may have fed into Jack's aggression. Uh. It was just a mess.


Take a deep breath and remember that in 200 years, no one will know.

The next step is to lead your dog either collar guide or have him follow you unleashed to the gate and leash him there. That way your dog isn't feeling restrained in a pack setting while you lead him across the park. (I have no idea how big your park is; but I tend to cringe at leashed dogs inside a dog park)
Also if you have to at the gate you are a bit better at blocking the path of dogs intent on dominating your dog. Usually, most dogs will respect a human and give them space. Note: usually, *shrug* I have met a few that had to be introduced to my knee at the gate.

I have used the term: Manage your dog or I will. Your dog is being dominant, and he is NOT playing. 
You'd be surprised if you stay calm, that you can find yourself managing several dogs just on your body language. 
(see first sentence )


----------



## Leshcib (Oct 25, 2013)

I had that happen to me today. My dog was interacting with another dog and then she wanted to fight! We were told that she she did not like other dogs. She has not yet ever shown agression towards my kids or me, but this she was ready to fight! Then I noticed she was chomping and foaming at the mouth!


----------



## loveformygermanshepherd (Aug 16, 2013)

I can't take maxx back to the dog park  I took him there when he was a around 4 to 4 1/2 months old, ( trainer told us to go there..) and all maxx did was bark at the other dogs and then one the dogs got close enough then maxx would want to smell and play. And before I knew it I was pulling the other dogs off of maxx. Now maxx is EXTREMELY reactive to other dogs. Now it might not be only because of the dog park but after was pounced on and attacked a couple times I stopped taking him there. Now I training and managing his reactivity.  I LOVE the concept of dog parks but I DISLIKE most of the dogs and their owners that go there ( to mine at least) people didn't take this elderly woman seriously when she was begging for this young couple to please keep their pitbull back.. And they just didn't care, and before she knew it te pitbull was on her dog.. It just honestly gives me anxiety to go there now  but a lot of people I know and have met take their dogs to their dog parks and have no issues. Must be mine only. Ugh 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> I can't take maxx back to the dog park  I took him there when he was a around 4 to 4 1/2 months old, ( trainer told us to go there..) and all maxx did was bark at the other dogs and then one the dogs got close enough then maxx would want to smell and play. And before I knew it I was pulling the other dogs off of maxx. Now maxx is EXTREMELY reactive to other dogs. Now it might not be only because of the dog park but after was pounced on and attacked a couple times I stopped taking him there. Now I training and managing his reactivity.  I LOVE the concept of dog parks but I DISLIKE most of the dogs and their owners that go there ( to mine at least) people didn't take this elderly woman seriously when she was begging for this young couple to please keep their pitbull back.. And they just didn't care, and before she knew it te pitbull was on her dog.. It just honestly gives me anxiety to go there now  but a lot of people I know and have met take their dogs to their dog parks and have no issues. Must be mine only. Ugh
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A perfect example of why you should never take your dog to a dog park. 

Yet again, I see another post about the negative consequences of someone taking their dog to a dog park. Once a dog has been attacked or bullied by another dog, they will most likely be dog aggressive for the rest of their life. Occasionally it is possible to reconcile this behaviour, but the majority of the time I think people, at best, can only hope to manage the behaviour. Some male dogs are just naturally dog aggressive and there is no other option than to manage the behaviour.

I feel a bit like a broken record coming in here and saying it again, but DOGS ARE PACK ANIMALS. Your dog's pack, consists of you, your family members (if any) and your dog. That is your unit, in terms of how the dog sees things. Therefore, it is TOTALLY UNECESSARY to introduce your dog to dogs that are not members of its pack. This applies to people as well, except where interaction is unavoidable or necessary (visitors, vets etc.). When you introduce a new dog into your household, or introduce your dog to a group of dogs, it unsettles pack structure and the primal drive of these animals to form a loose heirachy based on dominance interactions becomes a source of conflict. Sometimes this only occurs once and everything is resolved, and sometimes this is an ongoing thing - depending on the rank drive of the individual.

So if this is a inevitable consequence of dog v dog interaction - which sometimes results in violence, the question is DOES THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE BENEFIT when you consider taking your dog to a dog park. Are there any real benefits of taking your dog to a dog park? I personally don't think so. People talk of 'socialisation', letting your dog learn about 'doggie manners' and how to interact with other dogs in a civilised manner. But as I have stated, dogs are pack animals and there is no need for this, as for 'socialisation', well if engagement with your dog is your major prioirity for the life of your animal (which it should be) then socialisation should focus on desensitising your dog to unfamiliar situations/animals. Allowing your dog to become overly socialised and derive an immense amount of enjoyment out of interactions with other dogs is essentially just reinforcing behaviours that are counter-intuitive to your engagement with your dog and this is typified by the countless times I see people on here write about how their dog get's "distracted" at dog parks and "won't listen to me" or "just wants to play with other dogs". Allowing this interaction undermines your own engagement with your dog, to the point where it would rather spend time with other dogs than interact with you. 

As for the "doggie manners" line of argument (which makes my stomach churn wheneever I hear the phrase) is this essentially code for "force my dog to be submissive to any dog that approaches it, so interactions won't be aggressive and I'll feel all warm and fuzzy about how my dog is interacting with other dogs"??. I don't want my GSD to be submissive to anyone or anything BUT ME and MY PARTNER. Maybe that's just because I'm raising a sport dog. But he's an entact male so it's not like I'd expect him to be, naturally. But if I took him to a dog park (which I wouldn't, but hypothetically) I wouldn't be telling him "no" when he decides to take matters into his own hands, when his OWNER isn't DEFENDING him from overzealous boxers that want to dominate him. In fact I'd be bordering on encouraging aggressive behaviour toward dogs that try to dominate him. But see, he wouldn't feel the need to anyway because I am his pack leader and I WOULD DEFEND HIM. Whether that means getting dog bites all up and down my arms or kicking an aggressive dog in the face so hard that he remembers it for the rest of his life, or just not putting him in positions where he's likely to be attacked in the first place - so be it. I do not want my dog to think that he can't rely on ME because it UNDERMINES my RELATIONSHIP with my dog if he can't TRUST ME 100%. I've seen people actually take dogs that are so fearful of other dogs that they completely shut down, INTO DOG PARKS, lay them on the ground (the dog doesn't move because it's so in shock) and let other dogs come up to it and sniff it and posture up against it - like are you kididing me???

Someone in here said something along the lines of you can control your dog, but you can't control your dogs environment all the time. But I think it's more accurate to say that you can take all appropriate measures to control your dog and you can take all appropriate measures to control your dog's environment as well. When training our dogs, we say that we should never put our dog in situations where he/she is likely to fail. By that same measure we can say that we shouldn't put our dogs in situations where very negative things can possibly occur. Granted, it may not be definate or even likely, that your dog is going to get attacked or bullied at a every dog park you visit, but there is and always will be a possibility, so why risk it when the consequences of such an event could radically impact on the psychological and social health of your animal.

I'm begining to think that dog parks are just a lazy option for exercising your dog, where you can sit back and relax as your dog runs around with other dogs. You don't need to engage with it and mainstream dog training has cultured you into believing that this kind of "socialisation" is somehow beneficial for your dog. Ok, your dog is going to enjoy it, most of the time (when it isn't getting mauled or mounted), but you're just teaching your dog that interacting with other dogs is immensely more enjoyable than any type of interaction it could possibly have with you. So in conclusion, it's dangerous and counter intuitive to your relationship with your dog. Sorry for the essay.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> I'm begining to think that dog parks are just a lazy option for exercising your dog, where you can sit back and relax as your dog runs around with other dogs. You don't need to engage with it and mainstream dog training has cultured you into believing that this kind of "socialisation" is somehow beneficial for your dog. Ok, your dog is going to enjoy it, most of the time (when it isn't getting mauled or mounted), but you're just teaching your dog that interacting with other dogs is immensely more enjoyable than any type of interaction it could possibly have with you. So in conclusion, it's dangerous and counter intuitive to your relationship with your dog. Sorry for the essay.


They're not a lazy option...many people take their dogs to the dog park and walk around with them. It really depends on the dog park. There are really small ones, there are really large ones. And many times, they're the only option for people that live in the city/apartment to be able to take their dog off-leash and give it a bit of exercise that's more than just walking around the block.

This is a rehash of a very old thread...so I'm not going to review the first story. But the recent one...huge mistake to take a 4 month old puppy to a park. The minimum age at our dog parks in my county is 6 months. But its also almost impossible to say that due to that one attack the dog is now reactive. My dog was attacked when he was smaller by a neighbor's dog. We thought they would be fine, she snapped at him, and bit his nose. He kind of stood up for himself but was kind of too small to do anything (neighbor's dog was a border collie). Fast forward to today...I have a very friendly dog. He WILL stand up for himself and tell other dogs to back off...but his initial greeting is always friendly. If the other dog shows aggression...then he's not afraid to put that dog in its place.

When we go to the dog park...we walk around the half mile loop. My boy might get to play with a dog or two, I make sure they're his size and his energy level. If he starts getting too much for a dog I call him off and we go on our way. In 30 minutes of running around that park, he gets more exercise than if I were to walk him for two hours. So the exercise is very beneficial...if you want to talk about risk/reward. There are many more "success" or "nothing happened" stories from the dog park than there are "my dog got attacked at the dog park" stories. I'd say less than 1% of the dogs that go to dog parks run into problems. So what exactly is the risk?

On top of all that...why is it okay (from the last story), for a puppy to bark at other dogs? Why is it okay for any dog to bark at another dog? In general...barking between strange dogs is not initiation of play...its usually something else. Puppy or not...should never allow your dog to bark at a strange dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah but the vast majority of people (at least at the dog parks around here but I do live in the south and exercise really is not a top priority here...see obesity rates....) do just sit on the benches. They are just talking, reading a book or arguing amongst each other about training methods and who's dog is being 'rude' to the other dogs. 

I think Alwaysaworkingdog's post was spot on for many dog park-goers.

Agree that fights don't always break out though.

What I find amusing is the people will watch me working my dogs outside the fenced area in awe. Not that my dogs are OB superstars ...but.... well I'd rather use them and their dogs to proof my dogs OB under distractions, barking, yelling, dog fights, people fights and my dog holds his down. It's all good. LOL!.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> I wouldn't be telling him "no" when he decides to take matters into his own hands, when his OWNER isn't DEFENDING him from overzealous boxers that want to dominate him. In fact I'd be bordering on encouraging aggressive behaviour toward dogs that try to dominate him. But see, he wouldn't feel the need to anyway because I am his pack leader and I WOULD DEFEND HIM. Whether that means getting dog bites all up and down my arms or kicking an aggressive dog in the face so hard that he remembers it for the rest of his life, or just not putting him in positions where he's likely to be attacked in the first place - so be it. I do not want my dog to think that he can't rely on ME because it UNDERMINES my RELATIONSHIP with my dog if he can't TRUST ME 100%.


Very true! I want my dogs to know that they can count on me this way as well. I've attacked my share of other dogs over the course of my life. One of my dogs would actually not retaliate when he was bitten (happened 3 times) because he knew I was going to go after it first. I've tried to teach my current youngster this, but it's not a situation that I go looking for, lol. I have picked him up to shelter him from a charging loose dog in our neighborhood when he was only 4 months old. I did whack another dog away from us with a leash when it started snapping at him. I also grabbed and pinned another dog when it rolled my boy and bit his ear. 

But those are all incidences that happened on public property, not in a dog park. When you go into a dog park, then you have to assume the worst and hope for the best. I waited until my puppy was 9 months old before I took him to one, and I left many times when I didn't like the other dogs there. I went at odd hours to avoid meeting more than a few strange dogs at a time. I got into verbal altercations with other owners when they refused to control their dogs. I decided that, all things considered, there are better places around here for us to enjoy.


----------



## loveformygermanshepherd (Aug 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> They're not a lazy option...many people take their dogs to the dog park and walk around with them. It really depends on the dog park. There are really small ones, there are really large ones. And many times, they're the only option for people that live in the city/apartment to be able to take their dog off-leash and give it a bit of exercise that's more than just walking around the block.
> 
> This is a rehash of a very old thread...so I'm not going to review the first story. But the recent one...huge mistake to take a 4 month old puppy to a park. The minimum age at our dog parks in my county is 6 months. But its also almost impossible to say that due to that one attack the dog is now reactive. My dog was attacked when he was smaller by a neighbor's dog. We thought they would be fine, she snapped at him, and bit his nose. He kind of stood up for himself but was kind of too small to do anything (neighbor's dog was a border collie). Fast forward to today...I have a very friendly dog. He WILL stand up for himself and tell other dogs to back off...but his initial greeting is always friendly. If the other dog shows aggression...then he's not afraid to put that dog in its place.
> 
> ...


At my dog park the youngest is actually 4 months... It even has a sign showing the rules and that is actually on there. So thank you, but it wasn't my option to take him there.. The trainer I was working with actually told me to do it and as a first time gsd owner and my trainer had so many of them I decided to listen. My bad.. And like I said in my post.. I know that his attacks weren't the WHOLE reason he was reactive but I know my dog and I know that the attacks made him fear other dogs. ( at least a small amount of his issue) 

And for him barking, I honestly didn't know any better.. And when I told my trainer about it, I was told that it's normal and to spray vinegar water at him when he barks. I only did that one time until I stopped. So from the get go I have had bad instructions and since then decided to go off on my own... And actually dogs do bark in excitement and play barks. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

I think dog parks are useful when you know how to use them. We have two nearby, one that's just a fenced in section of grass in the middle of a county park and one that's privately owned with a pond, agility equipment, a lure course and a good bit of area. At the public park, you get your share of clueless people so I generally just work my girl outside the fence, or if the weather's bad during the week you can sometimes get the place to yourself to get to play a real game of fetch not limited by the tiny fenced-in lawns of suburbia.

At the private park, the owner is actually really educated about dog behavior and body language, so every dog has to pass his test before they go in. He also has staff who stay out in the park and make sure everything is going well, so I'll actually take my girl inside there. She doesn't really play with the other dogs, but it's a better place to work under distractions (since she's allowed to be off leash) and she gets used to seeing a lot of different kinds of people/dogs.

I think every dog park is different and depending on where you live they could be dangerous and unnecessary or a really great way to exercise an active dog off leash legally.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I hate dog parks. For me, the risk of neglectful owners and rude dogs is so not worth it for me or my dog. My worry goes from poor dog behavior, uninterested owners to disease and parasites in a concentrated area.

Your dog IMO acted appropriately towards dogs that were bullying your dog. The fact the owners of those dogs did nothing just further proves my point.

I don't believe dogs need to play with other dogs to be happy. If it is important to you, why not find someone with a well adjusted dog and make dog play dates. So much safer for your dog.


----------



## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

martemchik said:


> When we go to the dog park...we walk around the half mile loop. My boy might get to play with a dog or two, I make sure they're his size and his energy level. If he starts getting too much for a dog I call him off and we go on our way. In 30 minutes of running around that park, he gets more exercise than if I were to walk him for two hours. So the exercise is very beneficial...if you want to talk about risk/reward. There are many more "success" or "nothing happened" stories from the dog park than there are "my dog got attacked at the dog park" stories. I'd say less than 1% of the dogs that go to dog parks run into problems. So what exactly is the risk?


C'mon, martemchik, really? You're from Wisconsin, home of Leerburg Kennels, the most esteemed centre for behavioural and training knowledge in the entire Northern Hemisphere (at least I think), in fact all my posts are just a re-hash of Ed and Michael's material, it's surprising how big they are, yet how little of their material reaches this forum. Anyway I expected you to agree with me of all people, considering your roots 

What I think is your problem is that you seem to be fixated on exercise. Don't get me wrong it is extremely important. And running your dog off leash has that benefit. But the focus should be on engagement. And that's what I was talking about, people who go there and let their dog off leash seem to just 'zone out', why waste 30 minutes just letting your dog run around loose, an meet a few dogs when you could be playing fetch? or better tug? or even working on your heel. They all exercise the dogs joints and muscles just as well.

I don't know exactly what the risk is. I don't have enough time or resources to perform my own study of dog park fight incidence. What I was saying was that there is always a risk there and the benefit doesn't justify it when there are so many other things you could alternatively do. I don't believe it's as low as 1%, but it depends on what you're constituting as a "fight" or an "incident".

If I'm going on my own experience, and we're talking about significant fights, not just a nip here or there, I have witnessed a fight at a dog park probably 1/2 of the times I've been to one. That means there's a 50% chance by my measure that a fight will occur, granted only a few dogs will be involved in that fight so that probability is further split into say 20% or 2/10 dogs are involved in that altercation on average. And they're independent events so 0.2 x 0.5 = 0.1 so a 10% chance by my measure, that your dog will be involved in a fight. But this is likely to be highly variable and not all dogs are equally likely (e.g. entact male vs desexed female, pitbull vs poodle) to be involved in a fight. That's just a random ballpark guesstimate though, and doesn't really hold any validity. just as your 1% doesn't constitute anything.

lets not forget that there may be negative consequences to allowing free interaction, even if you don't see your dog fighting, it may be forced into submission in other ways, what does this do to a dogs confidence? I don't want my dog to experience that, I simply don't.

So we're going to have to agree to disagree but I do not personally believe that there is any real benefit to begin with, AND even if there was, that this would outweight the potentially negative experiences that my dog might have.


----------



## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I tend to agree with alwaysaworkingdog. Dogs are pack animals and do form loose packs when in off leash areas, however in dog world there is dominant and submissive, there is no equality and whilst the dogs may have worked it all out in a matter of seconds, some owners don't understand this and think the more dominant dog is being a problem. Owners cause the problems, not the dogs.

My experience with dog parks has not always been good, however due to where I live it is my only option for off leash exercise. 

I have only ever come accross 2 out of control red zone dogs, I generally find owners to be the problem, some are unable to control and/or don't bother to control their dogs and think it is very cute and funny that their dog is challenging my 2 GSDs. 

I have also experienced a lot of passive aggression from owners of other breeds, sometimes when I enter a dog park with 2 GSDs people make me feel as though I shouldn't be there and will leave or put their dogs on lead - they really make it obvious they don't like the breed, I've been in ear shot of nasty comments about the breed and had people ask me stupid questions such as 'are they guard dogs'. Fortunately my 2 GSDs are ball focus so are only interesed in playing their game of ball and will ignore other dogs - they just aren't interesed in them, most of the time the other dogs accept this and go onto other things, however some owners really make you feel 'not liked'. 

The passive bullying from other owners got so bad for us that we decided to not go to our local dog park and drive about 25 minutes to another larger off lead dog park which has been the best thing for all of us because there is 1 huge area for socialising and playing etc then there are 3 good size training pens where we can exercise our GSDs with balls or do obedience training without worrying about other dogs approaching us, we then walk them on lead around the edge of the larger off lead dog park. My 2 GSDs are much happier with this, they seem much more relaxed, probably because they are not bothered by other strange dogs and I am much more relaxed. 

It has become evident to me that my 2 do not need to interact with other dogs, they see other dogs at the park, and are very happy to watch from the outside. I do sometimes put them in the larger off lead park if there are only a couple of dogs, however due to my male being an EPI dog, his temperment has changed and he has become fear aggressive so I will muzzle him when in the large area just in case he reacts. He accepts the muzzle with no problem and has allowed other dogs to come up to him for a sniff and he has his sniff and there have been no problems - the muzzle is helping him to greet properly and he is slowly gaining the confidence he has lost over the past few months due to EPI.

My advice to new owners of GSDs is to avoid dog parks and maybe let your puppy watch the other dogs play from the outside and to do on lead walking. If you want socilaisation at a young age then try obedience training (they will get to socialise after class). However if you want off leash exercise and dog parks are your only option then to observe the dog park dogs for a while and if you feel the other dogs are not under control by their owners then to not go in and try another time.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Harry and Lola said:


> due to my male being an EPI dog, his temperment has changed and he has become fear aggressive .


I don't understand this. Can you explain?


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It's funny how people who have difficulties in Dogparks usually give out about the other owners present. You have to expect irresponsible owners at dogs parks.

But still if I had to use one I would but I would leash my dog on entry and totally gauge the energy there before allowing my dog off leash. 

I think if your dog is on leash then you can deflect other dogs away from you and project a stable pack not to be messed with, so other dogs don't infringe on your space.

If you don't have this confidence or stability then you should not be going into a busy dog park with roaming dogs.

Generally the energy can be gauged from outside the park. It would probably be a good idea before entrance to a dog park to stand by the side and watch how the dogs inside behave.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No way.

I've seen it too many times where the off leash dogs take advantage of an on leash dog and you know about leash reactivity too. The 'regulars' often mob the newbies at the entrance gate. There's a catch pen and you are supposed to unleash your dog before you open the gate into the open off leash area. So I would not recommend that, at least the way our dog parks are set up here.

BTW I don't have difficulties in dog parks because I don't go in them. 

I do watch the dogs and people going in and out and the vast majority of the dogs have little to zero training. Some do but most dogs I see at our local dog parks have no recall, no leash manners, barely a sit if that.

Most of the people who train around the park do as I do and train outside the fenced area on leash or long lines and guess what our dogs usually have decent OB on them too.

So......while admittedly anecdotal the pattern is clear, at least in our area.




MadLab said:


> It's funny how people who have difficulties in Dogparks usually give out about the other owners present. You have to expect irresponsible owners at dogs parks.
> 
> But still if I had to use one I would but I would leash my dog on entry and totally gauge the energy there before allowing my dog off leash.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW- for city dwellers who are looking for off leash areas to exercise their dogs in a town near me they have a great idea. There are large fenced pens that you rent for a nominal fee. YOU have complete control of that pen while it is rented by you and no uninvited people can enter with their dogs. If you don't have something like that in your area it may be something to push for with your local town/county councils/board.


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> BTW- for city dwellers who are looking for off leash areas to exercise their dogs in a town near me they have a great idea. There are large fenced pens that you rent for a nominal fee. YOU have complete control of that pen while it is rented by you and no uninvited people can enter with their dogs. If you don't have something like that in your area it may be something to push for with your local town/county councils/board.


Yeah that sounds awesome! We have a small fenced in yard which was plenty of exercise when my girl was tiny, but at 9 months she has tons of energy without the fully devolved hips to be able to go on bike rides yet. That pretty much leaves us with dogs parks or ignoring the leash laws :/


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Madlab


> I would leash my dog on entry and totally gauge the energy, (in dog park) before allowing my dog off leash. [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

having a dog on leash while entering a dog park is a really bad idea. i've seen dogs freak out a lot faster while on leash then if they were off leash. they feel restricted. they created the pen area to take off your dogs leash for a reason. its not just there for looks. 

you expect your dog to sit while a bunch of random dogs run up and sniff it? with most dogs this will end up with a freaked out dog.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> you expect your dog to sit while a bunch of random dogs run up and sniff it?


I expect my dog to sit when I command it. 

With out any command he is unlikely to sit while a bunch of dogs sniff him, but he may or he may try keep his back side to the ground if he is intimidated by a group and not looking for trouble.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There are 2 rules at the dog park I went to: no dogs on leash and no food/treats inside. I think that no toys would be another good rule, after seeing some dogs get pretty possessive over the balls brought in. One English bulldog was so intense he was even attacking the chuck-it stick, lol. 

Madlab, you're not asking a GSD to sit there, are you? I know you want your dog to follow commands whenever you issue them, but I just can't imagine a GSD (having the temperament that it does) tolerating a bunch of strange dogs all over it while maintaining a sit. You must be talking about a different breed?


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

My dog is a boxerxLab and female is a bullmastiffXlab. I think it is dog behavior in discussion here. My dog loves meeting and greeting and can get aggressive and was especially around 2 years old. It took work to achieve the level of control he now has. When I'm training him, I can heel him through groups and have him sit under high distraction.

Interesting a trainer I know with Gsd's, his dogs are stuck to him and seriously uninterested in meeting other dogs. His dogs are trained for competition and are so much more under control than my non Gsd. I've seen him heel through groups of dogs, granted it is not the same scenario as we are speaking of but i feel he could have his dog in a heel or sit and his dog would be totally focused on him. 

I feel people with their dogs with no control become a target for random dogs while people with high levels of control over their dogs get respected by random dogs.

Interesting that it is a rule for dog parks to be unleashed. Generally I would rather have the power to leash my dog when i wish no matter where i am.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Same here - At the dogs parks I visit (while I don't go in the fenced areas) the signs posted outside state that dogs inside the fenced area must be off leash. Probably because of leash reactivity. I've seen some people go in with their dogs on leash inspite of the rules and they get scolded by the regulars to take the leash off.

I can make my dogs sit in very close proximity to other dogs too (it was part of our OB class group training). I just choose not to do something like that amongst a bunch of loose untrained dogs.

yeah well I'm going to be more humble and admit that if a group of 5, 6 or 7 or more untrained off leash dogs are milling around my dog that I might just miss the body language of one a split second too long and then my dog will pay the price.

I don't think it's a good idea but you knock yourself out if you can manage yourself, your dog and a bunch of untrained off leash dogs....you've never met before.

:shrug:



MadLab said:


> Madlab
> 
> 
> > I would leash my dog on entry and totally gauge the energy, (in dog park) before allowing my dog off leash. [/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm, can you discuss dog behavior without mentioning their temperament? I'm sure many people have their GSDs trained to great heights, and they deal with distractions as a matter of course. But asking them to sit still and tolerate a group of dogs rushing at them, and who knows what else? Maybe I'm a softy, but to me that sounds cruel. 

I agree that the random dogs can sense the control that exists between dog and owner, but as far as actually respecting them for it? I doubt it. I think they know that said person won't take their crap and are simply smart enough not to push things, lol. 

Yeah, the leash rule seems odd, when you have dogs fighting over balls, lol. But there it is.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It is a hypothetical argument and it is hard to actually prove these points. Many different scenarios can occur and each will have a different outcome depending on the circumstances.

My general opinion is, 

Dogs will not attack a dog accompanying a human if the human is totally in control of the dog and the dog is trained. The dogs respect people instinctively and when the human projects their true animal power dogs will not attack too easily. 

Dogs may need to be trained or in direct threat or protecting territory or it's owner to actually attack a person. By having a dog in strict control to it's master, the on coming dogs have to actually take there attention off the dog and look at the person and contemplate attacking the combined power of the dog and the human rather than the dog on it's own. 

It is the bones of my own views on dog human interaction. If you know the true behavior of dogs then you can manipulate them in different scenarios.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's not really that hypothetical. Part of reasoning includes the 'so it would logically follow'.

It would logically follow that the more variables you throw into a mix (in this case dogs off leash in a dog park) the more chances there are for a bad outcome. 

Furthermore *as a general rule* GSDs aren't always the best 'dog park' dogs for the reasons stated by BlanketBack, some do fine and I know members here who take their dogs to parks with no problems but temperament and breed play a role. Here's a good take on that issue> Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?

Do you train actual protection dogs? I'm just wondering because sometimes you post things that don't match up with what I'm learning from trainers I work with who have actual dogs/creds for LEO/Protection and sport.






MadLab said:


> It is a hypothetical argument and it is hard to actually prove these points. Many different scenarios can occur and each will have a different outcome depending on the circumstances.
> 
> My general opinion is,
> 
> ...


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I'm just wondering because sometimes you post things that don't match up with what I'm learning from trainers I work with who have actual dogs/creds for LEO/Protection and sport.


Can you give an example please. 

I'm a hobby trainer interested in dog behavior. I research protection training, schutzhund and ring sports.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahh O.K. Appreciate you being honest about that.

You know one thing I learned really quickly from trainers with bona fides was not only what I didn't know, but what I didn't know that I didn't know. 

That's why if I give any training advice, especially when it come to aggression or protection training it's to go find an experienced GSD trainer. 

As to the dog park issue in general (and I'm sure this isn't 100% nothing is) but I've yet to run into a serious trainer personally (who does protection/SchH) actually *using* a dog park for training. Once in a blue moon I've seen a guy with some working line puppies in the small dog area. My current trainer doesn't train in dog parks (PSA/SchH guy) because of the reason stated earlier by Alwaysaworkingdog. He does train around the outside perimeter on leash as it is a good area to proof OB under distractions.

Again I'm sure there's some exceptions and maybe a member of this board will be one but it's not super common amongst the working dog folk I've interacted with personally. Mostly because again, what Alwaysaworkingdog stated, it's actually not *that* conducive to training goals in sport or protection.



MadLab said:


> Can you give an example please.
> 
> I'm a hobby trainer interested in dog behavior. I research protection training, schutzhund and ring sports.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have used dog parks. Not often. And to mixed results. 

Had my female attacked by a "regular pack" and literally had to kick dogs off if her while the " owner" say in a bench. Called AC and news rules were written allowing each person 3 dogs Max. This woman had 7 dogs in there. 

I never took my girl back. 

My male and I would go to very out if the way park. Never more than 3-4 dogs at any one time. He was fine. Would just pester people to play with him. Never wanted to play with other dogs. Stopped going when a woman brought in a VERY dominant, pushy in your face Am bulldog. I asked her to control her dog, the others in the park responded for her " he is just saying hi". I left. 

I will occasionally take my lab, but have not in over 3 years, because she is dog neutral. She totally ignores them, no matter what vibe they are giving off. Last time we were at a park it was with another labx. That dog was very dog shy, but very active. The owner was concerned when I went in. But after a few minutes if realizing that my dog was neutral, the two started playing fetch. No issues, just two dogs running after a ball. It was nice and the woman was very thankful. That was actually the last time I went to a dog park. 

I prefer to work and okay with my dogs separately. Not a huge fan. But fir some dogs they work. 

OP, your dog was showing signs of stress. Other dogs were being inappropriate, he was responding as expected. He has been through a lot. His interactions with other dogs should be in controlled environments with known safe dogs. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## harrisbrown99 (Oct 26, 2013)

My dog use to be aggressive. Now is she lay back. There are owners who do not train them dogs and be bad, make them feel like my dog is the s.... and is fun to them when dog attacking other. Niya keep on going, she looks, but that's it. We know now in park almost who is who. The aggressive one I go on the other side and keep her short on leash and heel. I have no time for lawsuits.


----------



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

JacksMama said:


> Hey everyone! :help: I'm new here and I'm hoping that I can get some advice from veteran GSD owners or at the very least some input on what happened to me this morning. My apologies in advance for the long winded post, but I'd rather give more info than less so that you can make the most informed call.
> 
> I own a year old GSD/hound dog mix named Jack. He's an adoption so unfortunately I can't tell you his exact age. The vet estimates him at a year to a year and two months, no more. He's incredibly sweet and well behaved. He has been socialized properly during his puppy stage - I took him to meet new people, new dogs, new places (pet stores, different parks, etc.). As I was a graduate student and money was tight, I couldn't afford puppy kindergarten but I made sure to work on all the commands like sit, stay, come, down, leave it, etc. He did really well with most of them although he does still get distracted when there are other dogs around.
> 
> ...


Your dog chose fight over flight and it's COMPLETELY NORMAL.
Most dog's in the dog parks have their own "PACK" already, so they see your dog and any other dog that they don't know as an intruder to their territory.
You should always remember that your dog sees you as his ALPHA and his PROTECTOR.
Same thing happened to me and my dog when we were taking a break from the dog park for like 4 month's and when we got back a group of dog's charged at us.
First thing you should do is stay calm and don't show your dog that you're afraid of them.
Make a stabbing posture with you're hand and hit the closest dog's neck.
You need to be very assertive, look at their eyes and say "No!" right when they get closer to your dog.
Do it while you're walking straight to them, they see it as "Clear the way, 
i mean it !!".
This information based on my own experience with dogs, i'm not a qualified dog trainer.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> Your dog chose fight over flight and it's COMPLETELY NORMAL.
> Most dog's in the dog parks have their own "PACK" already, so they see your dog and any other dog that they don't know as an intruder to their territory.
> You should always remember that your dog sees you as his ALPHA and his PROTECTOR.
> Same thing happened to me and my dog when we were taking a break from the dog park for like 4 month's and when we got back a group of dog's charged at us.
> ...


WHAT?????

Let me get this straight...you suggest people walk into a dog park and hit any dogs in the neck with a stabbing motion if they are running towards you and/or your dog??

OP....please do not do this!

Good way to get bit by a dog and hit by an owner.


----------



## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I don't understand this. Can you explain?


With EPI, organ, immune, nervous and all other body systems may become compromised to one degree or another. A lack of nutrients sometimes results in temperament changes which may express themselves in fear and/or aggression.

When I think about how long he may have had EPI and when he started to change from a happy, confident, dominant boy to a boy that is very anxious and showing fear aggression it all seems to fit together. It is not in is nature to be fearful or aggressive. He is naturally dominant, and I suppose eating like a horse and pooing like a cow and starving to death all at the same time will and does have a definate negative impact on their temperament and behaviour.

This good news for him is that after about 5 weeks of EPI medication he is exhibiting a much more calmer temperament and with help from me is slowing gaining his confidence back.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Interesting. It's not something I saw in my 2 EPI dogs so I was curious. My last EPI dog was DA and weak nerves but that was genetic.


----------



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Saphire said:


> WHAT?????
> 
> Let me get this straight...you suggest people walk into a dog park and hit any dogs in the neck with a stabbing motion if they are running towards you and/or your dog??
> 
> ...


My dog will take a bullet for me as I will for him so if I need to take a risk and get bitten i will take it, because it's my responsibility to protect my dog no matter what.
Your dog should know that he has a stable leader.
Hit by an owner? Oh please...
Dog owners should not let their dogs charge at other dogs or attack them.
Your comment described me as a crazy man who walks in dog parks and hit dogs for fun.
I've been in this situations before and got no bites or owners hitting me.
because the owners did knew that their dog was the problem.








Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Poor you dealing with 2. I have to admit when the Vet told me he had EPI and I went home and researched it, I was so worried about managing it and obessed with him putting on weight, however it has been too bad at all. Just give him a Creon before feeding him - easy.

What does DA mean?


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

DA means dog aggressive. My first EPI dog was a Siberian husky and was fairly easily managed she lived to almost 15.
My last was a GSD who was more difficult to manage but we did find a routine that worked fairly well. I had.never thought about possible personality traits being linked to EPI.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> C'mon, martemchik, really? You're from Wisconsin, home of Leerburg Kennels, the most esteemed centre for behavioural and training knowledge in the entire Northern Hemisphere (at least I think), in fact all my posts are just a re-hash of Ed and Michael's material, it's surprising how big they are, yet how little of their material reaches this forum. Anyway I expected you to agree with me of all people, considering your roots
> 
> What I think is your problem is that you seem to be fixated on exercise. Don't get me wrong it is extremely important. And running your dog off leash has that benefit. But the focus should be on engagement. And that's what I was talking about, people who go there and let their dog off leash seem to just 'zone out', why waste 30 minutes just letting your dog run around loose, an meet a few dogs when you could be playing fetch? or better tug? or even working on your heel. They all exercise the dogs joints and muscles just as well.
> 
> ...


According to my calculations...even incidents happen about 1% of the time. My boy was raised in a 500 square foot apartment in the middle of the city. We visited the dog park a lot...I'm talking 3 times a week when possible. And I saw a fight very very rarely. Maybe its the people here being more responsible and just not taking aggressive dogs to the park...but we don't have many issues. Plus...I've noticed when I walk in to the park with my GSD, a lot of people take notice. Our parks are very well "self-policed" by the public that goes there. People remember the not so friendly dogs and aren't too happy when they see them there over and over again. You do see a lot of people taking this forums advice and leaving when things get uncomfortable. Most people don't care about their dog losing confidence, their dogs don't need confidence, they're pets. On the other hand, some people like seeing their dogs lose some of the confidence they have. I've been told many times that people are happy that a bigger dog waltzes into the park once in a while because their dog needs to be shown that they're not the boss of everyone. Not that the dogs are being aggressive, but they definitely establish a pack order.

Now...the whole Leerburg thing...who cares about who that guy is? He trains completely different dogs than what I want. I love that my dog is social, I love that he's a free thinking pet, and even though I do obedience with him and trial, I don't want the type of dog that Leerburg preaches about. See the one poster about the kind of advice you can get from a trainer. I'm also not one to just blindly follow the direction of some trainer that I've never even met lol.

Like you said...you don't have the time or the resources to do your own research on dog parks. So all that you're talking about is secondary stories that you've read off the internet or heard from others. Others generally tell you the bad stories or the crazy stories...they don't tell you the time they go to the dog park and nothing happens. This forum is full of stories like that...I had a bad day at the dog park, without adding that they've been at the dog park hundreds of times before and that nothing has happened before. No one comes on and makes a post about how they went to the dog park and their dog ran around and played with other dogs and then an hour later they left without any problems. It's just not an interesting story...


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> At my dog park the youngest is actually 4 months... It even has a sign showing the rules and that is actually on there. So thank you, but it wasn't my option to take him there.. The trainer I was working with actually told me to do it and as a first time gsd owner and my trainer had so many of them I decided to listen. My bad.. And like I said in my post.. I know that his attacks weren't the WHOLE reason he was reactive but I know my dog and I know that the attacks made him fear other dogs. ( at least a small amount of his issue)
> 
> And for him barking, I honestly didn't know any better.. And when I told my trainer about it, I was told that it's normal and to spray vinegar water at him when he barks. I only did that one time until I stopped. So from the get go I have had bad instructions and since then decided to go off on my own... And actually dogs do bark in excitement and play barks.


Actually it was your option to take him there...no one forced you to. I don't get why you're angry at me and trying to defend your decision to blindly listen to ONE trainer. I'm glad you went with someone else as the whole spraying vinegar at him was also excellent advice. I've dealt with plenty of trainers in 3 years of my dog's life. I never blindly followed a single one...even the ones that have achieved more than I can ever imagine with my dog.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Saphire, I know 2 people with EPI GSDs, and they've both told me the same thing - that their dogs have some aggression and that there's a link. Maybe there's been some recent studies done? I believe they're both involved with an EPI news group so maybe this info came from there? 

MadLab, your ideas are interesting. From my own observations, I can't agree with you. But then again, maybe you're on to something. The random dogs that have rushed up and bitten my well-trained GSD were untrained themselves, and maybe they just didn't respect humans in general. The dogs that I have assumed were going to bite my dogs didn't do it, but I attributed this to the fact that I was ready to knock their blocks off and they didn't want to accept the challenge.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A person at my club has a dog with EPI, she is very reactive. It's just an "injured dog" thing. Not sure it has to do with her personality of temperament because before she developed the EPI she was fine. Once it really hit...she became very reactive and will stay that way. The dog probably doesn't feel right, feels injured, and so they are in danger when other dogs are around. In general, packs of dogs will try to weed out the weak and will team up and attack the weak. Dogs with EPI are weaker and so they probably feel threatened by the others.


----------

