# Wow really?



## loveformygermanshepherd

This is so sad to me because 1 it's in the next city over from me and 2 is that for some reason even though in this post it doesn't specify how he felt threatened but to just shoot a dog to me isn't right. Now if the dog was attacking or something then I MIGHT be able to understand... But at least the dog will survive the gun shot wound and hopefully his owners will be responsible to keep him from escaping his home and get put in danger. But the guy probably felt threatened because it was a gsd... Here's to a speedy recovery!! 



http://ktvb.mlnwap.com/article.html#!/9047/56112ee22c17252a4aa72baeafacf0b1


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## DaniFani

I'm going to try and find more info on this story....but, you've made a lot of assumptions based on zero facts....there is a thread right now and the OP was running with her dog and a husky that got out charged her, attacked her, and it had to be beat off with a baseball bat....should this couple have waited for it to escalate to that before they shot? Dogs can be difficult to read, but they can also be pretty easy to read when it comes to feeling threatened by them(and they were walking their own dog, so I think it's safe to assume they aren't terrified of dogs in general)....the fault lays solely on the GSD owner's shoulders. I think if the walkers felt threatened by an off leash GSD, they had every right to defend themselves and their dog. I feel bad for the GSD, but I also don't know if it just got out, by accident, and it's owners were fantastic owners on all other accounts. 

My GSD and Corgi got out when we had an inspector come over and he left the side gate open. My husband didn't think to check, let the dogs out, and came back a few mins later to let them in and they were gone....him and another neighbor started scouring the neighborhood, my husband made up signs, went door to door, and finally found them wandering together, 7 hours later, in the middle of the night....you should probably hold off judgement before you have all the facts...my husband and I were very worried that our GSD would get hurt. He was only 9/10 months old, but he looked full grown to the inexperienced eye, and if it was dark, and he was scared, he might posture, hackles raise, etc....and you know what? If some couple was out walking and he did that, I'm not even saying charged them, but looked like he was going to possibly do something....I would completely understand and be glad it ended that way instead of him biting one of them or their dog. Even though he had never shown that before, you just never know, in the right situation.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> I'm going to try and find more info on this story....but, you've made a lot of assumptions based on zero facts....there is a thread right now and the OP was running with her dog and a husky that got out charged her, attacked her, and it had to be beat off with a baseball bat....should this couple have waited for it to escalate to that before they shot? Dogs can be difficult to read, but they can also be pretty easy to read when it comes to feeling threatened by them(and they were walking their own dog, so I think it's safe to assume they aren't terrified of dogs in general)....the fault lays solely on the GSD owner's shoulders. I think if the walkers felt threatened by an off leash GSD, they had every right to defend themselves and their dog. I feel bad for the GSD, but I also don't know if it just got out, by accident, and it's owners were fantastic owners on all other accounts.
> 
> My GSD and Corgi got out when we had an inspector come over and he left the side gate open. My husband didn't think to check, let the dogs out, and came back a few mins later to let them in and they were gone....him and another neighbor started scouring the neighborhood, my husband made up signs, went door to door, and finally found them wandering together, 7 hours later, in the middle of the night....you should probably hold off judgement before you have all the facts...my husband and I were very worried that our GSD would get hurt. He was only 9/10 months old, but he looked full grown to the inexperienced eye, and if it was dark, and he was scared, he might posture, hackles raise, etc....and you know what? If some couple was out walking and he did that, I'm not even saying charged them, but looked like he was going to possibly do something....I would completely understand and be glad it ended that way instead of him biting one of them or their dog. Even though he had never shown that before, you just never know, in the right situation.


I never assumed anything, I was going word for word from the article. Around here, at least in my neighborhood I am always finding stray dogs, catching them and finding where they live, some of them I have brought home and called animal control to see if they were chipped. Around here at least the dogs that I find rarely ever have collars, tags or any sort of identification and that to me is not right. Call it what you will but just because you are walking your own dog does not mean that you LOVE all dogs. My mother in law for instance walks a 125 lb rottie but HATES pitbulls, and gsd's. So dot assume that just because he is out walking his win dog doesn't mean that he doesn't like gsd's... Around here they would rather shoot a pitbull then try and find their home, and just because they have hackles up whether it's fear or aggression they would shoot. And around my city and the surrounding cities I have met 2 kind of people with maxx, either they love the breed and always want to come pet him, or the second is they hate them and they will cross the street to avoid him. I had a 10 year old boy run away from him when he asked me what type he was. He told me that all the German shepherds that he has come in contact with have always tried to bite him... So when the guy feels 'threatened' who knows, maybe that was just the gsd barking or something... A dog barking at me whether it's loose or not is not grounds for me to shoot it (jmo) now the husky story is a little different... I don't believe that the gsd tried to attack him, otherwise I would imagine that 3 neighbors would have stepped out an probably shot him too. 

All I was saying was that IMO around here we are the type to shoot first and ask questions later. I have had my dogs get out before too, we searched for hours as well... And what saved mine were the fact that they had tags on them so we could be called. We did flyers and posted a ad on Craigslist too... I'm sorry if you thought that i jumped to conclusions on my post. I didn't mean to offend anybody, all I was saying that it upset me, am i wrong for that? My bad if it is... I agree that this lays solely on the owners and I never said that they were bad owners, if that's the case then by having your dog get out by accident then i wouldn't be a good dog owner either... My apologies if I upset anyone, that was never my intention 


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## wyominggrandma

loveformygsd, would it be different if the person who shot the dog was walking a GSD? The article didn't say what type of dog he was walking with his wife, so really can't assume anything at all from this little bit of dramatic newspaper reporting that leaves out so many necessary parts.
Has this GSD been loose many times before and tried to attack or act like it was attacking before? Has this GSD hurt another dog before or chased a child? 
The reporter made it sound like this guy walking his dog on a leash with his wife felt threatened. Maybe he has been threatened before......... I bet there is a lot more to this story than the reporter actually reported.
Kudos to you for catching stray running loose dogs, that is great if you do that and have time to do that and try to find who they belong to. That does not mean every loose running dog, with or without tags is gonna be friendly and let you catch them. I have been bit enough times not to be careful around strange dogs, loose or otherwise.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

wyominggrandma said:


> loveformygsd, would it be different if the person who shot the dog was walking a GSD? The article didn't say what type of dog he was walking with his wife, so really can't assume anything at all from this little bit of dramatic newspaper reporting that leaves out so many necessary parts.
> Has this GSD been loose many times before and tried to attack or act like it was attacking before? Has this GSD hurt another dog before or chased a child?
> The reporter made it sound like this guy walking his dog on a leash with his wife felt threatened. Maybe he has been threatened before......... I bet there is a lot more to this story than the reporter actually reported.
> Kudos to you for catching stray running loose dogs, that is great if you do that and have time to do that and try to find who they belong to. That does not mean every loose running dog, with or without tags is gonna be friendly and let you catch them. I have been bit enough times not to be careful around strange dogs, loose or otherwise.


I agree that this article is lacking a lot of details on what the cause was and what actions led up to the shooting. I don't understand why you guys are basically arguing everything that I have said and yet every other post that has to do with dogs being shot or whatever reason and whatever the situation is at least to me isn't argued this much and is always a sad story. That's the only reason I posted this article, but after all this I will second guess posting anything like this again. IMO I couldn't bring myself to shoot any animal but that's just me, take that as you all will. I reacted the same way when the rottie got shot by cops.. Or when the gsd got shot in someone's driveway. I'm sorry if it makes it sound like I don't feel bad for the people that felt like they had to shoot because I do, but I just couldn't ever do that, that's all I basically posted this article for was because I feel bad for all those involved. Just sad that for whatever reason it had to end in shooting the dog. 


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## jang

Don't feel beat up on...everyone has their opinions and not everyone can agree...Some of us (myself for sure) tend to be too sensitive, or thin skinned if you will , to not get their feelings hurt...Post anything you want, when you want...This is an open forum...


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## loveformygermanshepherd

jang said:


> Don't feel beat up on...everyone has their opinions and not everyone can agree...Some of us (myself for sure) tend to be too sensitive, or thin skinned if you will , to not get their feelings hurt...Post anything you want, when you want...This is an open forum...


Thank you. Yes I do sometimes have thin skin... But for the most part I don't get too sensitive towards other peoples opinions because everyone has one. I guess that I just thought that even through I do understand why everyone is saying what they are due to the lack of information in this particular article and story, and I do understand that there might be underlying reasons why things happened they way that they did and that he could have been walking a gsd himself and this gsd was trying to attack or whatever the reasons behind it. I just thought that there would be more sympathy towards the dog, if the dog was aggressive then there could be many reasons why it was like that.... That's the only reason I posted this 


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## Sookie

I am with you on this, it's extremely sad and I do think it very odd to shoot a dog for feeling threatened. I would not understand if someone shot my dog if she got out of the yard and looked like she "might" attack (many people think every dog looks like it is about to attack because they are scared of dogs - hopefully none of these people will stroll past my dog while she is off leash and open fire!). I will never understand someone firing a weapon because they "feel" threatened or "think" something may happen. That is such a bizarre attitude to me. You can "feel" threatened in any number of totally innocent situations - a man approaching you in the dark in a parking garage when you are alone, for example, may terrify you - but are you justified in shooting him because of that possibly totally unjustified fear? Not in a civilized society. As reported, the article makes it sound as though there was no attack, just a feeling of fear; a perceived threat simply doesn't justify discharging a firearm. If it did, it wouldn't matter if the dog was on its owner's property or not - if a perceived threat justifies shooting to kill, then it would be justified if you were a guest at a kid's party and the family goldie jumped on you - if you think fear justifies shooting, then context is moot.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Sookie said:


> I am with you on this, it's extremely sad and I do think it very odd to shoot a dog for feeling threatened. I would not understand if someone shot my dog if she got out of the yard and looked like she "might" attack (many people think every dog looks like it is about to attack because they are scared of dogs - hopefully none of these people will stroll past my dog while she is off leash and open fire!). I will never understand someone firing a weapon because they "feel" threatened or "think" something may happen. That is such a bizarre attitude to me. You can "feel" threatened in any number of totally innocent situations - a man approaching you in the dark in a parking garage when you are alone, for example, may terrify you - but are you justified in shooting him because of that possibly totally unjustified fear? Not in a civilized society. As reported, the article makes it sound as though there was no attack, just a feeling of fear; a perceived threat simply doesn't justify discharging a firearm. If it did, it wouldn't matter if the dog was on its owner's property or not - if a perceived threat justifies shooting to kill, then it would be justified if you were a guest at a kid's party and the family goldie jumped on you - if you think fear justifies shooting, then context is moot.


I totally agree with you Sookie. If someone was to shoot maxx because he got out of my yard and people thought that he might attack, his hackles would be up and probably barking because he isn't at home and scared... I don't feel like it's anyone's call to feel like their only line of defense is a gun when if someone had to defend themselves. They could use a stick or something non lethal. I just hope that this gsd doesn't get deemed aggressive and PTS  I just wish more people thought about the poor dog that had a bullet put it, that's what this thread should be about, wishing this dog has a speedy recovery and is able to go home. 


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## Jaythethird

This is completely wrong. These are things that will continue to spark dumbasses to try and take away our freedoms of being able to have firearms to protect us. The farthest I am away from a firearm at all times is 15 - 20 feet, depending on where I am in the house. Much closer if I'm out and about. I, as a human being with a male bravado, would like to think that in a threatening situation would be able to put up a pretty good fight without having to result in the use of my firearm. (my knife would be out long before) In a serious dog encounter, if I was truly attacked, you better believe I'm throwing blows. Kicking, punching, biting, ball shots the whole **** nine yards. Then I would use lethal force, if I hadn't prevailed already. This fearful society that is up and coming disgusts me. No one defends themselves. (I guess I shouldn't say no one) And I know some dogs are scary as ****! I've a into a few that I was strategically planning my defense attack lol. But not once did my firearm cross my mind... I hope this guy feels like a complete jackass and I hope his right to defend himself with lethal means is taken away from him. You are not deserving of that right if it is your go to choice. I hope he never sees anyone who forgot to take their ski mask off while quickly running in to grab some smokes, a man who packs a satchel who is late for the bus, a drunk person approaching them on a darkened Street to ask to borrow a phone to call a cab.... 
Pathetic 

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Jaythethird said:


> This is completely wrong. These are things that will continue to spark dumbasses to try and take away our freedoms of being able to have firearms to protect us. The farthest I am away from a firearm at all times is 15 - 20 feet, depending on where I am in the house. Much closer if I'm out and about. I, as a human being with a male bravado, would like to think that in a threatening situation would be able to put up a pretty good fight without having to result in the use of my firearm. (my knife would be out long before) In a serious dog encounter, if I was truly attacked, you better believe I'm throwing blows. Kicking, punching, biting, ball shots the whole **** nine yards. Then I would use lethal force, if I hadn't prevailed already. This fearful society that is up and coming disgusts me. No one defends themselves. (I guess I shouldn't say no one) And I know some dogs are scary as ****! I've a into a few that I was strategically planning my defense attack lol. But not once did my firearm cross my mind... I hope this guy feels like a complete jackass and I hope his right to defend himself with lethal means is taken away from him. You are not deserving of that right if it is your go to choice. I hope he never sees anyone who forgot to take their ski mask off while quickly running in to grab some smokes, a man who packs a satchel who is late for the bus, a drunk person approaching them on a darkened Street to ask to borrow a phone to call a cab....
> Pathetic
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


Amen jaythethird!! I could not have said that any better  I'm so glad that you stated your mind on this thread!!! Thank you so much!!! 


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## selzer

Frankly folks, the ONLY way to protect our dogs is to keep them under our control. I don't know if this yayhoo should or should not have shot the dog. Heck, the way people talk around here about packing heat against dog attacks, it is surprising we do not hear about this crap every week. 

And yet, here it happens. No citations were filed? Why? Because the dog was a GSD running at large, and some people are afraid of them, and some have good reason to be afraid of them when you see half of the u-tubes out there of some dog chewing away at the sleeve. They aren't scottys. They are large, intimidating dogs. If they bite you, they are going to leave a mark. 

Maybe the guy has already paid to have his dog sewed back together after a dog attacked it. Maybe he vowed that would never happen again. We can only guess. We CANNOT protect our dogs when they are running around loose. 

The dog owners have a second chance with their dogs. If they completely blame the shooter, than it won't matter. Their dog will be in just as much danger as before. If they take responsibility, and are more careful about their containment of the dog, maybe the shooter's bullet will give them many more years to enjoy their dog. 

Unfortunately, people spend so much time pointing their fingers at everyone else, they rarely learn anything well enough to make a difference.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I could not open the news thread so did not read it. 

Shooting a dog just because you feel threatened is probably stretching. If the dog was running at you to attack you have the right of defense. 

My neighbor is terrified of my dogs. Despite them never threatening him per se, he is terrified of them as they are GSD's. He may 'feel' threatened by then due to breed but that does not give him the right to harm them.


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## Jaythethird

selzer said:


> Frankly folks, the ONLY way to protect our dogs is to keep them under our control. I don't know if this yayhoo should or should not have shot the dog. Heck, the way people talk around here about packing heat against dog attacks, it is surprising we do not hear about this crap every week.
> 
> And yet, here it happens. No citations were filed? Why? Because the dog was a GSD running at large, and some people are afraid of them, and some have good reason to be afraid of them when you see half of the u-tubes out there of some dog chewing away at the sleeve. They aren't scottys. They are large, intimidating dogs. If they bite you, they are going to leave a mark.
> 
> Maybe the guy has already paid to have his dog sewed back together after a dog attacked it. Maybe he vowed that would never happen again. We can only guess. We CANNOT protect our dogs when they are running around loose.
> 
> The dog owners have a second chance with their dogs. If they completely blame the shooter, than it won't matter. Their dog will be in just as much danger as before. If they take responsibility, and are more careful about their containment of the dog, maybe the shooter's bullet will give them many more years to enjoy their dog.
> 
> Unfortunately, people spend so much time pointing their fingers at everyone else, they rarely learn anything well enough to make a difference.


I agree with you on it being the owners fault for not having their dog under control. 

I would chalk 'not hearing about this crap every week' to my hope that some people so still have minds that think. 

My main point here is that it is a dog. It doesn't even have opposable thumbs. It has one weapon. On one end of its body. That is only capable of moving one direction at a time. 

Your gonna get some scars in life, it's part of it. I guess it's just the neanderthal in me that would rather fight off an attack as it was happening than being the guy who shot something or someone because I was scared. 

I guess I just have a hard time justifying something over fear... Over feelings... Over my own mind making up a situation that, when rationally looked at, probably isn't even really the situation. 

Guns don't kill people, Guns don't kill dogs... That guy knew what he was doing. 

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## selzer

Guns don't kill dogs. Motor vehicles don't kill dogs. Farmers don't kill dogs. Hunter's don't kill dogs. Irresponsible owners that don't bother to contain their dogs properly kill dogs.


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## Jaythethird

selzer said:


> Guns don't kill dogs. Motor vehicles don't kill dogs. Farmers don't kill dogs. Hunter's don't kill dogs. Irresponsible owners that don't bother to contain their dogs properly kill dogs.


Quite the polar opposites. 
Could you explain the situations? 
Considering I fall under all four of your instances, I fail to see when shooting a dog would be an activity. 

And it really is a serious inquiry. I'm not being a smart ss

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## DaniFani

Jaythethird said:


> This is completely wrong. These are things that will continue to spark dumbasses to try and take away our freedoms of being able to have firearms to protect us. The farthest I am away from a firearm at all times is 15 - 20 feet, depending on where I am in the house. Much closer if I'm out and about. I, as a human being with a male bravado, would like to think that in a threatening situation would be able to put up a pretty good fight without having to result in the use of my firearm. (my knife would be out long before) In a serious dog encounter, if I was truly attacked, you better believe I'm throwing blows. Kicking, punching, biting, ball shots the whole **** nine yards. Then I would use lethal force, if I hadn't prevailed already. This fearful society that is up and coming disgusts me. No one defends themselves. (I guess I shouldn't say no one) And I know some dogs are scary as ****! I've a into a few that I was strategically planning my defense attack lol. But not once did my firearm cross my mind... I hope this guy feels like a complete jackass and I hope his right to defend himself with lethal means is taken away from him. You are not deserving of that right if it is your go to choice. I hope he never sees anyone who forgot to take their ski mask off while quickly running in to grab some smokes, a man who packs a satchel who is late for the bus, a drunk person approaching them on a darkened Street to ask to borrow a phone to call a cab....
> Pathetic
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


LOL, Oh my goodness....I've met guys with your bravado and "I'd just kick their *#&" attitude.....please...I've also seen those same guys pee themselves and disappear when the stuff really hits the fan....but you keep telling yourself that you and your big bad self would have "handled it better."  Weren't you also saying something about some meta-militia-army you were building, or martial rule or some nonsense....yep....that's the person whose opinion I want deciding things in this country and owning a gun.....man oh man....double eye roll

To OP, it is a sucky situation...but no one knows the whole story....at all....I couldn't find a single link to it anywhere. I just reserve judgement until I actually know what happened. But some people prefer to blindly start throwing their opinions around and "well I would have handled it better" attitudes....whatever, those people are always the first to look like fools when the whole story comes out, because it's never ever as simple as it looks at first glance.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

selzer said:


> Frankly folks, the ONLY way to protect our dogs is to keep them under our control. I don't know if this yayhoo should or should not have shot the dog. Heck, the way people talk around here about packing heat against dog attacks, it is surprising we do not hear about this crap every week.
> 
> And yet, here it happens. No citations were filed? Why? Because the dog was a GSD running at large, and some people are afraid of them, and some have good reason to be afraid of them when you see half of the u-tubes out there of some dog chewing away at the sleeve. They aren't scottys. They are large, intimidating dogs. If they bite you, they are going to leave a mark.
> 
> Maybe the guy has already paid to have his dog sewed back together after a dog attacked it. Maybe he vowed that would never happen again. We can only guess. We CANNOT protect our dogs when they are running around loose.
> 
> The dog owners have a second chance with their dogs. If they completely blame the shooter, than it won't matter. Their dog will be in just as much danger as before. If they take responsibility, and are more careful about their containment of the dog, maybe the shooter's bullet will give them many more years to enjoy their dog.
> 
> Unfortunately, people spend so much time pointing their fingers at everyone else, they rarely learn anything well enough to make a difference.


I agree with you 100% I am going out on a limb here and say that he probably shot because it was a gsd and he was intimidated by his size, bark breed or whatever. But to know that for sure, I don't. I keep looking at my news and there hasn't been anything updated on a more detailed story  it surprises me that there wasn't any citations given.. 

I hope that his owners (if he has any  ) do take this as a serious eye opener and make sure that their dog cannot get out. Since this happened where I live, I am taking every precaution with maxx even more so now 


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## Jaythethird

DaniFani said:


> LOL, Oh my goodness....I've met guys with your bravado and "I'd just kick their *#&" attitude.....please...I've also seen those same guys pee themselves and disappear when the stuff really hits the fan....but you keep telling yourself that you and your big bad self would have "handled it better."  Weren't you also saying something about some meta-militia-army you were building, or martial rule or some nonsense....yep....that's the person whose opinion I want deciding things in this country and owning a gun.....man oh man....double eye roll
> 
> To OP, it is a sucky situation...but no one knows the whole story....at all....I couldn't find a single link to it anywhere. I just reserve judgement until I actually know what happened. But some people prefer to blindly start throwing their opinions around and "well I would have handled it better" attitudes....whatever, those people are always the first to look like fools when the whole story comes out, because it's never ever as simple as it looks at first glance.


I fail to see where I said I would kick anyone's ass. I merely stated that a my firearm is my last option. And no I'm not building an army, I said I prefer martial law. So who is it that jumping in and throwing things around? Lol
Keep rolling your eyes as your right are infringed upon. Welcome to democracy. I have the same amount of say as someone who reads two posts and think they know someone's attitude or their way of life... Funny world ain't it

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> I agree with you 100% *I am going out on a limb here and say that he probably shot because it was a gsd and he was intimidated by his size, bark breed or whatever. But to know that for sure, I don't. I keep looking at my news and there hasn't been anything updated on a more detailed story  it surprises me that there wasn't any citations given.. *
> 
> I hope that his owners (if he has any  ) do take this as a serious eye opener and make sure that their dog cannot get out. Since this happened where I live, I am taking every precaution with maxx even more so now
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Re-read what you just posted...you have no doubt in your mind that he shot for no reason other than that it was a GSD...but you also can't find any more information on the story and there was no citation?? To me those are all clues that he had every right and was justified in doing what he did....they cause me to "go out on a limb" and think possibly there is much more to this story than some guy just shooting a dog....in a neighborhood....without reason....because it was a GSD....if he just shot some dog that was sniffing the ground, I have a hard time believing that this country's media wouldn't be all over that freaking story.....but you keep assuming you've got it all figured out....


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## DaniFani

Jaythethird said:


> I fail to see where I said I would kick anyone's ass. I merely stated that a my firearm is my last option. And no I'm not building an army, I said I prefer martial law. So who is it that jumping in and throwing things around? Lol
> Keep rolling your eyes as your right are infringed upon. Welcome to democracy. I have the same amount of say as someone who reads two posts and think they know someone's attitude or their way of life... Funny world ain't it
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


How is some guy shooting a dog, that may or may not have been moving towards an attack...an infringement on my rights?? 

I only know you based on your statements, you are right....but guys that talk like you are, really, some of the easiest to read....I knew a couple of guys like this....they were extremists.......use their *threat of fists and "neanderthal" ways, to throw their weight around, were always letting people know they always had a gun close by....felt like if push came to shove, or in the event of some apocalypse they would be some gun toting "Walking Dead" hero, they probably even fantasize about those 'end times'....when in reality, someone like them would probably be the first to go...it's okay....there are many many others like that....and the rest of the world will just sit back and smirk at their extremist attitudes, doomsday proclamations, and end of the world plans....I'm not talking about you...just a rant about some people I know


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> LOL,
> 
> To OP, it is a sucky situation...but no one knows the whole story....at all....I couldn't find a single link to it anywhere. I just reserve judgement until I actually know what happened. But some people prefer to blindly start throwing their opinions around and "well I would have handled it better" attitudes....whatever, those people are always the first to look like fools when the whole story comes out, because it's never ever as simple as it looks at first glance.



And what if your wrong? Your the one saying that you would rather have your own dog shot instead of attacking someone? That's madness... What if this dog really didn't do anything at all to provoke a trigger happy person that just maybe wanted to title and fame of shooting a dog? Some people would actually like that... You are the one that instantly jumped to protect the guy that shot and so you didn't reserve judgment at all. What of this dog was just startled by the people walking and let out a bark just to let them know that he was there? Does that give him the right to shoot someone's dog? Not in my book it doesn't. And trust me.. Here, I have seen many people use other means to protect themselves rather then just shooting.

The truth is, is that unless the story is updated or something happens with it, none of us will really know what happened. Everyone was just giving there 2 cents into the situation regardless if it was "what i would have done in that situation" I'm just glad that some people on here at least feels sorry for the dog... 

I just hope that the dog is ok  



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## selzer

DaniFani, she was agreeing 100% with my post, she said probably in what she posted after that. 










Quote:
Originally Posted by *selzer*  
_Guns don't kill dogs. Motor vehicles don't kill dogs. Farmers don't kill dogs. Hunter's don't kill dogs. Irresponsible owners that don't bother to contain their dogs properly kill dogs._

"Quite the polar opposites. 
Could you explain the situations? 
Considering I fall under all four of your instances, I fail to see when shooting a dog would be an activity. 

And it really is a serious inquiry. I'm not being a smart ss" 

It was in response of the post where you said guns don't kill people -- I agree. People kill people. People kill dogs. But I think that when you have a large dog of a type that many people get BECAUSE of their ability as a deterant or protector -- guard/protection, and you let it run around the neighborhood loose, it isn't the guns or the cars or the farmers or the hunters that are killing your dog. It is you, the owner, that did not do what it takes to contain the dog that killed it.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> Re-read what you just posted...you have no doubt in your mind that he shot for no reason other than that it was a GSD...but you also can't find any more information on the story and there was no citation?? To me those are all clues that he had every right and was justified in doing what he did....they cause me to "go out on a limb" and think possibly there is much more to this story than some guy just shooting a dog....in a neighborhood....without reason....because it was a GSD....if he just shot some dog that was sniffing the ground, I have a hard time believing that this country's media wouldn't be all over that freaking story.....but you keep assuming you've got it all figured out....


And who isn't passing judgment? If I stand correct you are. Just because the media wasn't all over it doesn't mean that he shot the dog for good reasons. You are making assumptions as well.. 


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## Jaythethird

DaniFani said:


> How is some guy shooting a dog, that may or may not have been moving towards an attack...an infringement on my rights??
> 
> I only know you based on your statements, you are right....but guys that talk like you are, really, some of the easiest to read....I knew a couple of guys like this....they were extremists.......use their *threat of fists and "neanderthal" ways, to throw their weight around, were always letting people know they always had a gun close by....felt like if push came to shove, or in the event of some apocalypse they would be some gun toting "Walking Dead" hero, they probably even fantasize about those 'end times'....when in reality, someone like them would probably be the first to go...it's okay....there are many many others like that....and the rest of the world will just sit back and smirk at their extremist attitudes, doomsday proclamations, and end of the world plans....I'm not talking about you...just a rant about some people I know


Merp.... 

Stay on on track hear please. 

I don't even know what 'walking dead' is about. I do at least know it's a TV show, or maybe a movie? 

And I highly doubt you know what the rest of the world would do lmao. 
And if you don't know what some guy shooting a dog will do to your rights............................ 
.............................. 
......................... 
............................. 
..................................... 
.............. 
.................... 

You should go monitor more threads, you are doing great! 





Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> And what if your wrong? *Your the one saying that you would rather have your own dog shot instead of attacking someone?* That's madness... What if this dog really didn't do anything at all to provoke a trigger happy person that just maybe wanted to title and fame of shooting a dog? Some people would actually like that... You are the one that instantly jumped to protect the guy that shot and so you didn't reserve judgment at all. What of this dog was just startled by the people walking and let out a bark just to let them know that he was there? Does that give him the right to shoot someone's dog? Not in my book it doesn't. And trust me.. Here, I have seen many people use other means to protect themselves rather then just shooting.
> 
> The truth is, is that unless the story is updated or something happens with it, none of us will really know what happened. Everyone was just giving there 2 cents into the situation regardless if it was "what i would have done in that situation" I'm just glad that some people on here at least feels sorry for the dog...
> 
> I just hope that the dog is ok
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes. Yes I would rather have my dog shot than my dog attacking someone....my dog's life is not more valuable than a person...neither is my dog's life more valuable than a person suing my family for everything we own/have, because my dog bit them....I guess we'll just agree to disagree....I was not defending the guy, I was trying to make people see that there may be a perspective to this person's story that we are not seeing....just like their may be a perspective to the dog's owner's situation that we are not seeing.....maybe they are great owners, but some stranger left the gate open, maybe they are terrible owners and the dog has bit before...you presented the side you wanted to, I tried to bring perspective to the side no one was paying attention to.....and no...I'm not going to worry about someone going through a *neighborhood* with a gun, looking for a "trophy dog" to shoot and kill....that's pretty extremist....there are way too many "what ifs" for me to say who is at fault, that anyone over-reacted, or that anyone was at fault....you are the one that made the statement "I'm going to go out on a limb..." I never said anything so definitive....I choose to have more information before I even "go out on a limb."


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## DaniFani

Jaythethird said:


> Merp....
> 
> Stay on on track hear please.
> 
> I don't even know what 'walking dead' is about. I do at least know it's a TV show, or maybe a movie?
> 
> And I highly doubt you know what the rest of the world would do lmao.
> And if you don't know what some guy shooting a dog will do to your rights............................
> ..............................
> .........................
> .............................
> .....................................
> ..............
> ....................
> 
> You should go monitor more threads, you are doing great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


Lol, JTT, dog's and animals get shot everyday....the guy wasn't even cited...it didn't even make the news other than that one little blip....you honestly think the left-leaning news teams wouldn't have been all over a guy *discharging a gun in a* *neighborhood* if there was even an inkling that it wasn't justified...or that the left-leaning news wouldn't be all over a police department who didn't cite a guy if they even had a chance of proving he needed to be cited? Focus your passion on true areas that are effecting our rights...I bet you and I would actually agree on WAY more than you think....I just think this is the wrong place to take the stance you are trying to take....I can think of other things that are happening right now that are effecting our gun rights, and I would be right there with you. Just not this one.....I see what you are trying to say, and if, in fact, it is proven that this guy was being a baby, I would agree with you 100% that he was taking a risk in contributing to the horrible stigma that is attached to CCW owners....however, I don't have the info to take that stance....I don't think anyone does...like I said, too many what-ifs....

What if.....he was elderly, the woman with him was elderly, his dog was already bit, the GSD was actually starting to move towards them (I don't know if you've actually caught a GSD during bitework...there isn't time to think if they are close enough), the dog was charging them, the guy gave the dog a chance to get away, the guy decided the GSD was too close and looking to charge and he couldn't protect his wife, himself, or his leashed dog, all at the same time....and of course, he could have absolutely have over-reacted...I don't know....no one knows...


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> Yes. Yes I would rather have my dog shot than my dog attacking someone....my dog's life is not more valuable than a person...neither is my dog's life more valuable than a person suing my family for everything we own/have, because my dog bit them....I guess we'll just agree to disagree....I was not defending the guy, I was trying to make people see that there may be a perspective to this person's story that we are not seeing....just like their may be a perspective to the dog's owner's situation that we are not seeing.....maybe they are great owners, but some stranger left the gate open, maybe they are terrible owners and the dog has bit before...you presented the side you wanted to, I tried to bring perspective to the side no one was paying attention to.....and no...I'm not going to worry about someone going through a *neighborhood* with a gun, looking for a "trophy dog" to shoot and kill....that's pretty extremist....there are way too many "what ifs" for me to say who is at fault, that anyone over-reacted, or that anyone was at fault....you are the one that made the statement "I'm going to go out on a limb..." I never said anything so definitive....I choose to have more information before I even "go out on a limb."


And I do understand the reasons why you said what you said and your right, unless more light shines on the story no one will ever know the true meaning behind it. But all I wanted you to understand is that around here as probably in many places the people here will shoot first and pick up the pieces later, so when I said I was going out on a limb was more of this has happened before.. But like I said it's not just here in Idaho I'm sure... It's not just gsd's that are targeted and all I started this thread for was just share a sad story, possibly one that this dog could have lost his life. 

I would NEVER say that i would rather my dog get shot.. That's horrible  I would just take the extra precautions to never let my dog have a chance to bite.... Not that he would. But if that did ever happen then i would hope that the person would use other methods to get maxx away rather then shooting him. 


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> And who isn't passing judgment? If I stand correct you are. Just because the media wasn't all over it doesn't mean that he shot the dog for good reasons. You are making assumptions as well..
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Please show me where I said "I'm going to go out on a limb" or "this is probably what happened" or "this is what happened".....I have acknowledged many times that yes, he could have over-reacted....how come you are allowed to give your reasons for why you think he didn't, but I can't propose a different side of the story? There are absolutely no facts that support your "going out on a limb." You decided to take ONE phrase in the article "he felt threatened," and draw a your entire conclusion from it....that's fine, that's your prerogative.....I'm just urging you to maybe collect facts before you take an entire stance on something....that's all....


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> And I do understand the reasons why you said what you said and your right, unless more light shines on the story no one will ever know the true meaning behind it. But all I wanted you to understand is that around here as probably in many places the people here will shoot first and pick up the pieces later, so when I said I was going out on a limb was more of this has happened before.. But like I said it's not just here in Idaho I'm sure... It's not just gsd's that are targeted and all I started this thread for was just share a sad story, possibly one that this dog could have lost his life.
> 
> *I would NEVER say that i would rather my dog get shot.. That's horrible  I would just take the extra precautions to never let my dog have a chance to bite.... Not that he would. But if that did ever happen then i would hope that the person would use other methods to get maxx away rather then shooting him*.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh my gosh, you are making some really extreme, presumptive, conclusions from what I said, so I will try and word this to you from your standpoint against my statement.....

So, you are saying, that you would rather your dog attack someone walking down the street, then them shoot your dog?? You are saying, the person being attacked, should not kill the dog attacking them? They should try and figure out a way to do minimal amount of damage to your dog, while your dog is *attacking* them...you're also saying, that if your dog has hackles raised, is moving towards them, in a "I'm-going-to-get-you-charge" way, that you fully expect those people to not do anything until the dog gets a bite in? I am giving you these scenarios, because these are the scenarios I was saying, yes I would understand someone using lethal force...gun...knife...fists...teeth....whatever, to stop my dog from attacking...I made that statement under the pretense that the feeling of "threat" was warranted....of course I would not agree it was right that my dog was shot solely because he was a GSD, or whatever breed they didn't like....but bottom line, if the dog's out, it's my fault (even if I am a fantastic owner who let this tragic accident occur), and if someone "feels threatened" that's my fault....because the dog should have never been out in the first place....

Selzer, that is a good point about people buying this breed because it has a stigma of being a threatening breed....I hadn't really thought of that context before...people get very very upset when people "stigmatize" our breed, or feel threatened by it...yet, most of those same people bought a GSD *because* they wanted that feeling of protection and security, *from looks alone*...they feel that protection and security for a *reason*....so why are they (general they) so surprised when that stigma comes back and bites them in the butt...someone jumping the gun (no pun intended), so to speak, simply because it is a GSD....hmmmm....interesting thing to think about...thanks


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> Please show me where I said "I'm going to go out on a limb" or "this is probably what happened" or "this is what happened".....I have acknowledged many times that yes, he could have over-reacted....how come you are allowed to give your reasons for why you think he didn't, but I can't propose a different side of the story? There are absolutely no facts that support your "going out on a limb." You decided to take ONE phrase in the article "he felt threatened," and draw a your entire conclusion from it....that's fine, that's your prerogative.....I'm just urging you to maybe collect facts before you take an entire stance on something....that's all....


And you bringing your side is perfectly fine. Not everyone is going to agree on everything  I am just ASSUMING that he shot him because he was a gsd and that the dog did nothing intentional just because I FEEL like if this was a rabid dog going for blood then there would be more details, they would make it juicy for all to read. I mean look at what they do with the pitbull attack stories for petes sake ya know? I just would think that if this dog was really going for a attack then there would be eye witnesses or whatever, saying that this dog was attacking or foaming at the mouth. all they said was the gsd was running loose... Something isn't fitting in. There's too many blanks to this story... But yes I agree with you that there is too many what if's in this story but the way society is now, would it really surprise you if he just shot to shoot? 


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> And I do understand the reasons why you said what you said and your right, unless more light shines on the story no one will ever know the true meaning behind it. *But all I wanted you to understand is that around here as probably in many places the people here will shoot first and pick up the pieces later*, so when I said I was going out on a limb was more of this has happened before.. But like I said it's not just here in Idaho I'm sure... It's not just gsd's that are targeted and all I started this thread for was just share a sad story, possibly one that this dog could have lost his life.
> 
> I would NEVER say that i would rather my dog get shot.. That's horrible  I would just take the extra precautions to never let my dog have a chance to bite.... Not that he would. But if that did ever happen then i would hope that the person would use other methods to get maxx away rather then shooting him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


JTT, it's this phrase right here, that in my opinion, is a threat to your and my rights, wrt gun control....the belief that anyone with a gun will shoot first and ask questions later....this belief that most or all people with a gun, or those that decide they have to do it, are always unwarranted, shoot first and ask questions later, etc....Imo, those kinds of broad-sweeping statements that, "this is happening everywhere", are way more dangerous to your rights. I was just trying to point out that you have no idea if this guy was warranted, instead of seeking the whole story, you jumped on the "he over-reacted" bandwagon, fueling the kind of thought process that leads to broad statements of "this is happening everywhere" and people thinking anyone with a gun doesn't know what they are doing.

I would think someone who is so worried about their rights being taken away, would first try and get all the evidence, before agreeing immediately that it was an over-reaction...it being an over-reaction is more detrimental to the overall attitude people have towards guns (leading to stricter laws), then if it turns out that the person firing the weapon had every right to....


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## Jaythethird

selzer said:


> , it isn't the guns or the cars or the farmers or the hunters that are killing your dog. It is you, the owner, that did not do what it takes to contain the dog that killed it.


This is what I was asking you to explain. I guess I just don't know what situation you are referring to... Like what farmer killed a dog? Hunter killed a dog? 
I understand the car part but I'm guessing the car wasn't used as a weapon on the dog. 

Just curious as to why those are the instances you are using. 

















Dani, your still on Merp patrol? 

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> Oh my gosh, you are making some really extreme, presumptive, conclusions from what I said, so I will try and word this to you from your standpoint against my statement.....
> 
> So, you are saying, that you would rather your dog attack someone walking down the street, then them shoot your dog?? You are saying, the person being attacked, should not kill the dog attacking them? They should try and figure out a way to do minimal amount of damage to your dog, while your dog is *attacking* them...you're also saying, that if your dog has hackles raised, is moving towards them, in a "I'm-going-to-get-you-charge" way, that you fully expect those people to not do anything until the dog gets a bite in? I am giving you these scenarios, because these are the scenarios I was saying, yes I would understand someone using lethal force...gun...knife...fists...teeth....whatever, to stop my dog from attacking...I made that statement under the pretense that the feeling of "threat" was warranted....of course I would not agree it was right that my dog was shot solely because he was a GSD, or whatever breed they didn't like....but bottom line, if the dog's out, it's my fault (even if I am a fantastic owner who let this tragic accident occur), and if someone "feels threatened" that's my fault....because the dog should have never been out in the first place....
> 
> I now understand what you are meaning. And I agree that if my dog got out and was attacking someone that would fall onto me, and I hope I NEVER have to face that situation with any of my dogs. And I was only speaking from experience that i would hope that since I have been attacked and so have my pets from other dogs and I have never used lethal methods on them that they wouldn't use lethal on my dog. But I know that every situation is different and everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> DaniFani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my gosh, you are making some really extreme, presumptive, conclusions from what I said, so I will try and word this to you from your standpoint against my statement.....
> 
> So, you are saying, that you would rather your dog attack someone walking down the street, then them shoot your dog?? You are saying, the person being attacked, should not kill the dog attacking them? They should try and figure out a way to do minimal amount of damage to your dog, while your dog is *attacking* them...you're also saying, that if your dog has hackles raised, is moving towards them, in a "I'm-going-to-get-you-charge" way, that you fully expect those people to not do anything until the dog gets a bite in? I am giving you these scenarios, because these are the scenarios I was saying, yes I would understand someone using lethal force...gun...knife...fists...teeth....whatever, to stop my dog from attacking...I made that statement under the pretense that the feeling of "threat" was warranted....of course I would not agree it was right that my dog was shot solely because he was a GSD, or whatever breed they didn't like....but bottom line, if the dog's out, it's my fault (even if I am a fantastic owner who let this tragic accident occur), and if someone "feels threatened" that's my fault....because the dog should have never been out in the first place....
> 
> I now understand what you are meaning. And I agree that if my dog got out and was attacking someone that would fall onto me, and I hope I NEVER have to face that situation with any of my dogs. *And I was only speaking from experience that i would hope that since I have been attacked and so have my pets from other dogs and I have never used lethal methods on them that they wouldn't use lethal on my dog. But I know that every situation is different and everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs about it*.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed!! It's always so nice to come to an agreement on *something* when debating two schools of thought! lol
> 
> Most of us have all been through a dog fight/attack...they aren't pretty, and I would bet 99% of them are never met with lethal force....most people would never want to really hurt a dog....those ones just don't make the news....with the same token, I bet lethal force would have been justified and no one would have been "breaking the law" if they had used lethal force, in most of the dog attack cases....it's just most choose not to, or aren't prepared to do so....I don't *think I could ever shoot a dog....
> 
> I take that back, if my dog was being attacked (like bad) or my kid was even being threatened by a dog...and I had the ability to use lethal force, I wouldn't hesitate...I don't feel the same way about myself, because if I get bite....I'll deal with it....but my kid or dog being attacked...I really wouldn't hesitate...but, **maybe that's what we're dealing with in this situation...the guy wasn't by himself. He had his wife and dog with him....both my spouse and dog I feel protective over...Now, I am the wife, and my husband fills the role of protector, I don't really feel the need to physically protect him...but he may feel that same sense of "protector" over me that I do over my kids and dogs...maybe that explains the use of lethal force instead of "seeing what happens" like you or I may do if we were by ourselves....because I'll tell you one thing, if I was walking with my two year old son, and some loose GSD starting growling, hackles up, and walking towards us, I can safely say I would use lethal force if I had the means....wow, thanks for taking that run-on train of thought with me lol!
Click to expand...


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## Nigel

No charges filed yet in Boise dog shooting - www.kivitv.com

German shepherd shot by man walking his dogs - National Dogs | Examiner.com

These news links have a little more info and witnesses claiming the dog was not acting aggressive.


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## selzer

Jaythethird said:


> This is what I was asking you to explain. I guess I just don't know what situation you are referring to... Like what farmer killed a dog? Hunter killed a dog?
> I understand the car part but I'm guessing the car wasn't used as a weapon on the dog.
> 
> Just curious as to why those are the instances you are using.
> 
> Dani, your still on Merp patrol?
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


The farmer that killed the two huskie type dogs that killed her pigs. 

The hunters that will shoot dogs running deer -- shoot, shovel, shut up. 

The car that drives along and isn't able to stop when the dog darts out in the road. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

The guy with a gun walking his dog with his wife, who kills a loose GSD, for whatever reason.

In ALL these instances, the outcome would have been different if the one person who should be the one that cares the most, the one person who has the power to completely prevent any of these things from happening, just kept their dog under wraps. 

Now I know that every single time a dog is out bumming isn't because the owners opened the front door and say, "come back by dark." But the fact of the matter is, people are too darn reckless when they come to their critters. Oh well, dogs will be dogs, accidents will happen. Sometimes they get out. 

These people need to take responsibility for their dogs. Their dog isn't under control, they have no one to blame but themselves. 

If their dog is playing nicely in a dog park and they are there and some yayhoo pulls out a gun and shoots the dog, crucify him and I will help pound in the nails. But a dog gets run over by a car or shot because he was running loose and menacing, than tough beans. If you wanted your dog to be alive, you would have made sure he was home. 

We might be able to change the law and stop people from being able to carry firearms, but we won't stop the wheels from rolling on cars. The ONLY way we can protect our dogs if they are properly contained. 

I am not sure how I can be more clear.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> JTT, it's this phrase right here, that in my opinion, is a threat to your and my rights, wrt gun control....the belief that anyone with a gun will shoot first and ask questions later....this belief that most or all people with a gun, or those that decide they have to do it, are always unwarranted, shoot first and ask questions later, etc....Imo, those kinds of broad-sweeping statements that, "this is happening everywhere", are way more dangerous to your rights. I was just trying to point out that you have no idea if this guy was warranted, instead of seeking the whole story, you jumped on the "he over-reacted" bandwagon, fueling the kind of thought process that leads to broad statements of "this is happening everywhere" and people thinking anyone with a gun doesn't know what they are doing.
> 
> I would think someone who is so worried about their rights being taken away, would first try and get all the evidence, before agreeing immediately that it was an over-reaction...it being an over-reaction is more detrimental to the overall attitude people have towards guns (leading to stricter laws), then if it turns out that the person firing the weapon had every right to....


I don't own a gun and I'm not familiar with gun laws and such but I don't see how my statement is a threat to gun rights? All I was saying was that it wouldn't surprise me if he did just shoot, as others have said that the guy was just trigger happy... And I never said it was happening everywhere, all I was saying that I'm sure Idaho has not been the only place that has had someone shot just to shoot.... 


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## DaniFani

"A Sunday morning walk in a boise neighborhood ended with a German shepherd shot. A couple walking two dogs were approached by a German shepherd. Witnesses say the dog was not acting aggressively, but the couple felt threatened, and the man reacted by pulling his gun and shooting the dog.

The couple, who spoke with us but declined to go on camera, say the german shepherd was acting aggressively, even biting at their ankles. The man shot the dog, and was attempting to hold her down when the owner came running out."

Now it comes down to who's telling the truth, I guess....although I don't understand the GSD "biting ankles"....how does a GSD bite ankles...unless he was going after the other dog... And the statement from the owner saying "the dog would never hurt anyone" holds no water for me.....no owner says, "yeah, he's insane....I knew he'd bite one day."


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## Nigel

DaniFani said:


> "A Sunday morning walk in a boise neighborhood ended with a German shepherd shot. A couple walking two dogs were approached by a German shepherd. Witnesses say the dog was not acting aggressively, but the couple felt threatened, and the man reacted by pulling his gun and shooting the dog.
> 
> The couple, who spoke with us but declined to go on camera, say the german shepherd was acting aggressively, even biting at their ankles. The man shot the dog, and was attempting to hold her down when the owner came running out."
> 
> Now it comes down to who's telling the truth, I guess....although I don't understand the GSD "biting ankles"....how does a GSD bite ankles...unless he was going after the other dog... And the statement from the owner saying "the dog would never hurt anyone" holds no water for me.....no owner says, "yeah, he's insane....I knew he'd bite one day."


The "witnesses" in the other links side with the GSD owners version.

A German shepherd named "Dalia," was grievously wounded on Sunday by a man who was walking his dogs in a Boise, Idaho, neighborhood, reported Sunday's ABC 6 News.

Dalia's owner stated that he had opened the garage door in preparation to take his dog for a ride, but Dalia spotted two dogs who were being walked by a couple outside of the residence, and she trotted over to them.

Dalia's owner believes that his dog, who had never exhibited any signs of aggression, wanted to play with the couple's dogs - the couple, on the other hand, claim that Dalia was acting aggressively.

*Witnesses to the shooting side with Dalia's guardian, stating that she was not behaving in an aggressive manner.
*
Though Dalia was seriously injured by the bullet that sliced through her shoulder, she is still alive and expected to recover.

No charges are expected against the man who pulled the gun and shot Dalia - in Idaho, it is legal to shoot an "animal at large," if someone feels threatened.

Dalia's owner wishes that the man would have tried to tell his dog to go away, rather than trying to kill her; he noted that German shepherds are often mistakenly portrayed as "aggressive" dogs, even if they are not.


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## DaniFani

"A German shepherd named "Dalia," was grievously wounded on Sunday by a man who was walking his dogs in a Boise, Idaho, neighborhood, reported Sunday's ABC 6 News.

Dalia's owner stated that he had opened the garage door in preparation to take his dog for a ride, but Dalia spotted two dogs who were being walked by a couple outside of the residence, and she trotted over to them.

Dalia's owner believes that his dog, who had never exhibited any signs of aggression, wanted to play with the couple's dogs - the couple, on the other hand, claim that Dalia was acting aggressively.

Witnesses to the shooting side with Dalia's guardian, stating that she was not behaving in an aggressive manner."

It sucks, because i bet they were little dogs, her prey drive kicked in, she was chasing them around the owners, leashes were getting tangled, and instead of properly reading the dog's body language, he thought she could or was going to kill his dog....one bite from a GSD to a small dog (thinking chi chi?), could indeed kill it...but I doubt that's what she was doing....either way, it's not the little dog's owners responsibility to be able to read the drives of other dogs...especially when he is trying to go for a stroll with his leashed animals....the neighbors said the dog gets out all the time....ugh....makes me want to strangle the idiot GSD *owner*....


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## loveformygermanshepherd

But to not even give the dog a warning at least? To try and shoo her home? That to me doesn't make any sense... Even the owner of the gsd said,

"People just have shepherds in general, and I think that's kind of wrong you know. German shepherds aren't these vicious dogs that people take them to be," he said.

I feel bad for them  I feel horrible for Dalia and hope that she recovers fast. 

Now, would I let my dog just run over and meet dogs or people that I didn't know or have met before without him being under my control? No. So no, the owner should not have let her do that and when their at large I guess you can shoot them if you "feel threatened" good to know... 

I hope that something will come of this for the dog and her owners though.. She didn't do anything wrong and for them to just shoot her  especially since other witnesses say she wasn't acting aggressive. There's no grounds to have shot (IMO) 


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Nigel said:


> No charges filed yet in Boise dog shooting - www.kivitv.com
> 
> German shepherd shot by man walking his dogs - National Dogs | Examiner.com
> 
> These news links have a little more info and witnesses claiming the dog was not acting aggressive.


Thank you so much for finding these and sharing!!! Your awesome  


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## DaniFani

I don't doubt that she wasn't trying to kill the little dogs, but we are talking about a large GSD, chasing around a dog, at the ankles of the other owners feet....I mean, can't you imagine the crazy hecticness that was probably happening...the little dogs were probably squealing, increasing the GSD's prey drive.....yeah, I wouldn't have shot the GSD...but it's not on the little dog's owners shoulders to be able to tell if the GSD was being aggressive. They weren't at a dog park, expecting their dogs to interact with other dogs...they were trying to take a walk...and the fact that this dog has been seen out multiple times is what makes me so mad...honestly....when a dog is getting out regularly....it's only a matter of time before something tragic happens.


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## Breitbach343

A dog got shot; it’s sad but let’s be honest here. When has the media delivered a 100% accurate story? Do you think the media might exaggerate to make a story more appealing? Do you think that there are people out there that would say they witnessed the whole thing to get on TV, when in fact they just heard the gun shot? This will go back and forth but unless you were there and witnessed the whole incident, we will never truly know the whole/real story.


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## martemchik

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> But to not even give the dog a warning at least? To try and shoo her home? That to me doesn't make any sense... Even the owner of the gsd said,


Its actually illegal to give off a "warning shot." I don't own a gun but I know that if you pull it...you better be intending to hit a certain target and not just firing it. I'll also assume that since there were witnesses around...there were people near by. Last thing you want to be doing is firing a weapon in any direction. Either you hit someone directly, bullet ricochets and hits someone, or you fire it in the direction of a person, miss them, and then lose your house anyways.

I know we're all dog lovers here. And we love GSDs but the truth is, when our dogs go after smaller dogs, even in a friendly manner, people don't like it. I will try my hardest to pretty much avoid all little dogs. Even at dog parks I will call my boy off of smelling little dogs and saying hello. The look on the owner's faces when my boy is saying hello the doggy way is usually one of concern and almost fear...they don't care that they've watched him for the last 20 minutes be perfectly friendly with all dogs. All it takes is for that small dog to randomly snap, and my boy to snap back in defense, for there to be a dead small dog.

I'm never an advocate for deadly force. I'm actually not an advocate for guns PERIOD. But to allow your dog to do this, then be shocked and outraged when someone does defend themselves or their dogs...is ridiculous. This reminds me of a thread a few months ago of a cop that shot a pitbull that was "attacking" an animal control officer and then there was an article and outrage over that as well. Quite fun sitting back, making assumptions, reviewing a situation from behind our computer screens and thinking "this is what we would do in that split second situation."


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## DaniFani

martemchik said:


> Its actually illegal to give off a "warning shot." I don't own a gun but I know that if you pull it...you better be intending to hit a certain target and not just firing it. I'll also assume that since there were witnesses around...there were people near by. Last thing you want to be doing is firing a weapon in any direction. Either you hit someone directly, bullet ricochets and hits someone, or you fire it in the direction of a person, miss them, and then lose your house anyways.
> 
> I know we're all dog lovers here. And we love GSDs but the truth is, when our dogs go after smaller dogs, even in a friendly manner, people don't like it. I will try my hardest to pretty much avoid all little dogs. Even at dog parks I will call my boy off of smelling little dogs and saying hello. The look on the owner's faces when my boy is saying hello the doggy way is usually one of concern and almost fear...they don't care that they've watched him for the last 20 minutes be perfectly friendly with all dogs. All it takes is for that small dog to randomly snap, and my boy to snap back in defense, for there to be a dead small dog.
> 
> I'm never an advocate for deadly force. I'm actually not an advocate for guns PERIOD. But to allow your dog to do this, then be shocked and outraged when someone does defend themselves or their dogs...is ridiculous. This reminds me of a thread a few months ago of a cop that shot a pitbull that was "attacking" an animal control officer and then there was an article and outrage over that as well. Quite fun sitting back, making assumptions, reviewing a situation from behind our computer screens and thinking "this is what we would do in that split second situation."


I think she meant "shooing" the dog away...telling it to "gohome" etc...


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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> I don't doubt that she wasn't trying to kill the little dogs, but we are talking about a large GSD, chasing around a dog, at the ankles of the other owners feet....I mean, can't you imagine the crazy hecticness that was probably happening...the little dogs were probably squealing, increasing the GSD's prey drive.....yeah, I wouldn't have shot the GSD...but it's not on the little dog's owners shoulders to be able to tell if the GSD was being aggressive. They weren't at a dog park, expecting their dogs to interact with other dogs...they were trying to take a walk...and the fact that this dog has been seen out multiple times is what makes me so mad...honestly....when a dog is getting out regularly....it's only a matter of time before something tragic happens.


Yeah I guess that is true.. Now that you put it that way. Just sad that the gsd has to deal with the consequences for the owners not being responsible for her. It's like this pitbull that i found wondering around my neighborhood, and when I found his owners they told me that that was the 3rd time in 2 days that he had gotten out.. Um... Don't you think you ought to fix that problem? The wife told me that she saw him get out and didn't even bother chasing him because he "doesn't listen" and I turned around and told her that she was lucky that I found him and not someone else.. Haven't seen him since. 


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> Yeah I guess that is true.. Now that you put it that way. Just sad that the gsd has to deal with the consequences for the owners not being responsible for her. It's like this pitbull that i found wondering around my neighborhood, and when I found his owners they told me that that was the 3rd time in 2 days that he had gotten out.. Um... Don't you think you ought to fix that problem? The wife told me that she saw him get out and didn't even bother chasing him because he "doesn't listen" and I turned around and told her that she was lucky that I found him and not someone else.. Haven't seen him since.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Argh, that makes me so mad when you see it multiple times....I found a little mutt wandering down the highway...took it into the shelter and they recognized it when I came through the door....4th time in three months that they'd got it....I guess the owners just have to keep paying a fee to get their dog back....but it's terrible that the dog could have a tragic end because of it....I mean, I found that dog at like 3am on a highway....ridiculous!

I guess what makes me a little more mad is that the GSD owner is trying to garner sympathy over the whole thing! She should get her dog taken away! The fact that she is trying to gain sympathy, feels that she did nothing wrong...is concerning...people don't learn from things if they feel they were in the right....


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## loveformygermanshepherd

martemchik said:


> Its actually illegal to give off a "warning shot." I don't own a gun but I know that if you pull it...you better be intending to hit a certain target and not just firing it. I'll also assume that since there were witnesses around...there were people near by. Last thing you want to be doing is firing a weapon in any direction. Either you hit someone directly, bullet ricochets and hits someone, or you fire it in the direction of a person, miss them, and then lose your house anyways."


I'm sorry, I did mean it like telling the dog to go home. Trying to use other methods first  




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## loveformygermanshepherd

DaniFani said:


> Argh, that makes me so mad when you see it multiple times....I found a little mutt wandering down the highway...took it into the shelter and they recognized it when I came through the door....4th time in three months that they'd got it....I guess the owners just have to keep paying a fee to get their dog back....but it's terrible that the dog could have a tragic end because of it....I mean, I found that dog at like 3am on a highway....ridiculous!
> 
> I guess what makes me a little more mad is that the GSD owner is trying to garner sympathy over the whole thing! She should get her dog taken away! The fact that she is trying to gain sympathy, feels that she did nothing wrong...is concerning...people don't learn from things if they feel they were in the right....


Yep, me too. The shelter did that to me with a yellow lab, they new rosco by name! Made me so mad!! 

I just hope that this was what it took for her to make sure the dog doesn't get out anymore and this was a life lesson. Hoping... 


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## wyominggrandma

The whole situation would have been avoided if the owner of the GSD had control of his dog when he opened the garage door and the dog ran outside "to play" with the leashed dogs on the sidewalk. 
I have been to many many dog shows, seen many dogs come into the clinic, even seen dogs while walking my own come running up and the owners will say" oh, it only wants to play" while growling or hackles up or circling. When the owner is not attached to the dog while it is "coming up to play" how does the owner know what the dog is actually doing?
While I agree that shooting the GSD seems a bit much, the man and his wife walking their dogs on leash might have seen the teeth end of a GSD running loose at them and their dogs with the owner in the garage and not knowing if indeed the dog wanted to play as the GSD owners stated or was going to attack, did what he felt was necessary. What if it had been a child walking a small dog and the GSD came barreling out of the garage and the child went into the street and got hit by a car?
Again, this would not have happened if the owner of the GSD had control of his dog when he opened the garage door.


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## doggiedad

male bravado, you carry a gun and knife.



Jaythethird said:


> This is completely wrong. These are things that will continue to spark dumbasses to try and take away our freedoms of being able to have firearms to protect us. The farthest I am away from a firearm at all times is 15 - 20 feet, depending on where I am in the house. Much closer if I'm out and about. I,
> 
> >>>>> as a human being with a male bravado, would like to think that in a threatening situation would be able to put up a pretty good fight without having to result in the use of my firearm. (my knife would be out long before) <<<<<
> 
> 
> In a serious dog encounter, if I was truly attacked, you better believe I'm throwing blows. Kicking, punching, biting, ball shots the whole **** nine yards. Then I would use lethal force, if I hadn't prevailed already. This fearful society that is up and coming disgusts me. No one defends themselves. (I guess I shouldn't say no one) And I know some dogs are scary as ****! I've a into a few that I was strategically planning my defense attack lol. But not once did my firearm cross my mind... I hope this guy feels like a complete jackass and I hope his right to defend himself with lethal means is taken away from him. You are not deserving of that right if it is your go to choice. I hope he never sees anyone who forgot to take their ski mask off while quickly running in to grab some smokes, a man who packs a satchel who is late for the bus, a drunk person approaching them on a darkened Street to ask to borrow a phone to call a cab....
> Pathetic
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


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## loveformygermanshepherd

wyominggrandma said:


> The whole situation would have been avoided if the owner of the GSD had control of his dog when he opened the garage door and the dog ran outside "to play" with the leashed dogs on the sidewalk.
> I have been to many many dog shows, seen many dogs come into the clinic, even seen dogs while walking my own come running up and the owners will say" oh, it only wants to play" while growling or hackles up or circling. When the owner is not attached to the dog while it is "coming up to play" how does the owner know what the dog is actually doing?
> While I agree that shooting the GSD seems a bit much, the man and his wife walking their dogs on leash might have seen the teeth end of a GSD running loose at them and their dogs with the owner in the garage and not knowing if indeed the dog wanted to play as the GSD owners stated or was going to attack, did what he felt was necessary. What if it had been a child walking a small dog and the GSD came barreling out of the garage and the child went into the street and got hit by a car?
> Again, this would not have happened if the owner of the GSD had control of his dog when he opened the garage door.


I agree. The owner should not have let the gsd go and meet people who didn't want to meet him, or go up to anyone or anything without the owner being in control of the leash... Just a sad reality that people do this all the time, and you know what? I was one of them. After finding out about the facts of this story it hit a little too close to home for me because when I am loading up my baby to go for a walk in the morning, maxx is leashed but I am not holding the leash when we go through the garage. Maxx stays by me but now I know that anything could happen and even though he is still scared of other dogs, he loves people and he could run out and possibly meet someone and that would be it, especially if the person didn't want to meet him. He isn't full grown yet but he is pretty good sized already. This was also a life lesson for me... 


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## selzer

I think it does happen to many of us. I have a bunch of dogs and every one of them, when I open the back gate goes rushing for the back of my car. 93% of them will stay there, right there at the back of my car for me to load them up, regardless to the distractions. 

The other one? I found out Sunday, that the other one is so darn fast that she gets to the back of my vehicle, and then get's bored waiting for me to move on two legs and two bad knees all the way to the back the of the car. So she goes out of the yard along the woods in the back. Right where my neighbor with his elephant-gun likes to do target shooting. 

Uhg! This means I have to leash this baby because people don't just sit at thier back door waiting with their gun to take out a first-time offender. But if a dog make a habit of this crap, a neighbor might think, Target Practice! I cannot begin to understand or change what is someone else's mind. But I can leash the little bitch and keep her safe until I can improve her recall and train her better.


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## Gwenhwyfair

What I don't get is in the other story about the farmer who shot the Bernese Mountain Dogs was charged for it, even though the dogs were on HIS property. He shot them and said it's because they were chasing his livestock and one of the dogs threatened him. 

He was charged for shooting in the line of sight of dwellings (reckless/dangerous use of a firearm). 

This person isn't going to be charged (and it sounds like there were buildings and people/witnesses close by)..... 

I *do *get the point that owners should bear the large part of the responsibility of making sure their dogs are under control and said as much in the Bernese Mountain Dog thread.

BUT we've got a thread going in the General Info section on how to stop attacks and break up dog fights and often no lethal force is necessary.

I had the situation happen where two dogs ducked out of my neighbor's garage as he was lifting the door (large boxer and a pittie) and charged right across the street at me and Ilda (who was still a puppy at the time). They weren't acting friendly, but rather being terriotorial. I stopped them by putting myself between them and Ilda and 'puffing' myself up and shouting at them in an angry commanding voice. That's worked for me more then once.

Yes the owners were in the wrong but *most* dogs aren't going to really attack and you can stop them utilizing many non-lethal efforts.

So I see two sides to this. The owners who should exercise control over their dog but also, mistakes happen and overall serious dog attacks are down in our country.

The problem is when we don't even bother to try and de-escalate any more and resort to maximum force at the drop of the hat. "Go ahead make my day"...... that's not good either.


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## selzer

I don't carry anything on walks, and only once did a pit burst its screen door and rush us. Another time a poodle ran off its porch into us, and a few times ignorant owners allowed unattached dogs come right up, saying they're friendly, oh and the Yorkie at the park that barked and circled Ninja and I all the way back to our car. But I have never had to resort to force to prevent a fight.

However, I am a dog-person. This means more than just owning dogs. I am comfortable around very large dogs and breeds with a reputation for being aggressive. I am not frightened by dogs in general. Lots of people are. You can say not to bring your scaredy dog into public, and not to let an aggressive dog out in public -- that is debatable, but I can see both sides to the argument. But you just cannot expect scared people to stay in the house or car for the rest of their lives. 

And you do not have to be a wimp to be afraid of what a dog might do. I do not know how old that couple was. I am not sure it was mentioned. But a broken hip from a fall, and some people do not recover from that. They go into the hospital and die. A bite for a sick or elderly person can cause way more harm than for a young, healthy adult. 

Nobody deserves to be charged by a dog. If my mom and dad were walking on the sidewalk and a dog charged them, and my dad had a gun, he would probably shoot the dog. He has never done this. And for himself he probably wouldn't. But my mom has been through a lot of health problems, and we are not looking to hasten the inevitable. 

If you want your dogs to be safe, then keep them under control. It isn't rocket science. Dogs barking sometimes should be tolerated. Dogs running unabated toward strangers walking on the sidewalk should not be. And if you have an invisible fence, than it should stop short of the sidewalk, and it should be clearly defined so that people walking can see it, and the dog should be trained to the fence.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

When I first posted this thread I was very angry. I was extremely sad, regardless of what the reasons were behind the shooting. And after finding out more information about it, I CAN see both sides but at the same time I still don't understand why the guy felt the need to shoot the gsd. I honestly think that there could have been other ways of calling her off. I mean, to me it doesn't exactly clarify where the owner of the gsd was. If he was just hanging out in the garage or something, but if the couple would have yelled for him to call his dog off or something then all of this could have been avoided IMO... But once again, every situation is different. 

And I am with selzer on the fact that I am a dog person as well. The aggressive breeds or any breed usually does not frighten me. I have had many dogs run up to me, with or without maxx and some of them have not been very nice. The last time was a boxer and a little dog and the boxer was just curious about maxx but when I stepped in between him and maxx he ran away from me. Now the little dog was very aggressive and was going after my feet and maxx, that one I had to yell and step towards him a few times and he followed us for a while but didn't come much closer because i wouldn't let him. 

I personally think that, at least how I feel is that if your going to have your dogs outside of your home you should have come to the conclusion already since we all don't like to have to face it or deal with it.. There are those people out there that do allow their off leashed dogs to run up and say hi, or dogs get out and they will most likely come and see you ( with good intentions or not) and I think we all need to know all options before using lethal force. Now not every time is yelling at the other dog or stepping towards them going to work so it's not always going to work every time but I at least know I will always try everything I can first before doing something extremely harsh, but so far I have been pretty successful doing what I have done already. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

I was thinking of the video Vislor posted here recently, where in the U.K. if a person just 'feels' frightened they have the right to file a complaint (though in the U.K. far less likely your dog will be shot too....)

So yeah, it's about balance. 

To keep that balance we have to push back on both sides of this.

IMO some people react from a 'personal' mythology rather then assessing the situation as it is in front of them.

So if someone already thinks a loose dog is likely to attack them they'll be more likely to over-react. So while *most* dogs won't really physically attack and statistically serious dog attacks are down people apparently perceive the opposite (thanks in large part due to the way media covers attacks)

State by state stats and explanations here:

National Canine Research Council

So IMO some pushback is in order here. Yes owners are responsible but if we let that meme become too entrenched we may well end up like the U.K.......and legislating public policy based on irrational fear isn't a good thing.




selzer said:


> I don't carry anything on walks, and only once did a pit burst its screen door and rush us. Another time a poodle ran off its porch into us, and a few times ignorant owners allowed unattached dogs come right up, saying they're friendly, oh and the Yorkie at the park that barked and circled Ninja and I all the way back to our car. But I have never had to resort to force to prevent a fight.
> 
> However, I am a dog-person. This means more than just owning dogs. I am comfortable around very large dogs and breeds with a reputation for being aggressive. I am not frightened by dogs in general. Lots of people are. You can say not to bring your scaredy dog into public, and not to let an aggressive dog out in public -- that is debatable, but I can see both sides to the argument. But you just cannot expect scared people to stay in the house or car for the rest of their lives.
> 
> And you do not have to be a wimp to be afraid of what a dog might do. I do not know how old that couple was. I am not sure it was mentioned. But a broken hip from a fall, and some people do not recover from that. They go into the hospital and die. A bite for a sick or elderly person can cause way more harm than for a young, healthy adult.
> 
> Nobody deserves to be charged by a dog. If my mom and dad were walking on the sidewalk and a dog charged them, and my dad had a gun, he would probably shoot the dog. He has never done this. And for himself he probably wouldn't. But my mom has been through a lot of health problems, and we are not looking to hasten the inevitable.
> 
> If you want your dogs to be safe, then keep them under control. It isn't rocket science. Dogs barking sometimes should be tolerated. Dogs running unabated toward strangers walking on the sidewalk should not be. And if you have an invisible fence, than it should stop short of the sidewalk, and it should be clearly defined so that people walking can see it, and the dog should be trained to the fence.


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## Jaythethird

doggiedad said:


> male bravado, you carry a gun and knife.


Yes, I do. Lol. Good reading! Good good boy! 
Not for protection, for recreational activities *****

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13

Edited by ADMIN. Please refrain from name calling. Thank you.


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## alexg

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I was thinking of the video Vislor posted here recently, where in the U.K. if a person just 'feels' frightened they have the right to file a complaint (though in the U.K. far less likely your dog will be shot too....)
> 
> So yeah, it's about balance.
> 
> To keep that balance we have to push back on both sides of this.
> 
> IMO some people react from a 'personal' mythology rather then assessing the situation as it is in front of them.
> 
> So if someone already thinks a loose dog is likely to attack them they'll be more likely to over-react. So while *most* dogs won't really physically attack and statistically serious dog attacks are down people apparently perceive the opposite (thanks in large part due to the way media covers attacks)
> 
> State by state stats and explanations here:
> 
> National Canine Research Council
> 
> So IMO some pushback is in order here. Yes owners are responsible but if we let that meme become too entrenched we may well end up like the U.K.......*and legislating public policy based on irrational fear isn't a good thing*.


As if this had never happened in the US ...


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## selzer

What is an irrational fear for a 20-40 year old is NOT an irrational fear to someone over 70, or a person with any range of diseases. A large dog knocks them down, and they can be hospitalized for months, if they are lucky. 

So how do we know our big dog is only going to rush out toward athletic, young -- middle-aged individuals? Should people over the age of 50 no longer be able to own a dog because they will then have to face the great outdoors where irresponsible dog owners allow their dogs to run up and greet, say high, attack their small dogs? 

Dog attacks are terrible. If a dog is attacking your small dog in front of you, and you intervene, you are putting yourself at great risk for misdirected aggression. 

I don't like that this guy shot the dog. But I blame the owners of the shot dog completely for it happening.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm going to disagree here. If something is *truly* dangerous or not doesn't change in reality based on perceptions. So my goofy Smitty dog is just as safe with a 5 year old as he is with 30 year old or a person in a wheelchair.

Just because one of those people 'fears' him doesn't change the reality.

The what if is going a bit too deep in the weeds argument-wise. What if's surround us all the time what should matter is was there intentional abuse or neglect that caused the 'what-if' accident.

Also, please don't conflate my argument with saying I condone irresponsible owners, I do not. I also don't condone people over-reacting and shooting dogs in public places if there was no clear indication that the dog was being aggressive.

I know I'm walking a fine line but the flip side of this coin is allowing *too much leeway* to fearful people.

Dog attacks are terrible but the fact is they really aren't as common as many people think they are.



selzer said:


> What is an irrational fear for a 20-40 year old is NOT an irrational fear to someone over 70, or a person with any range of diseases. A large dog knocks them down, and they can be hospitalized for months, if they are lucky.
> 
> So how do we know our big dog is only going to rush out toward athletic, young -- middle-aged individuals? Should people over the age of 50 no longer be able to own a dog because they will then have to face the great outdoors where irresponsible dog owners allow their dogs to run up and greet, say high, attack their small dogs?
> 
> Dog attacks are terrible. If a dog is attacking your small dog in front of you, and you intervene, you are putting yourself at great risk for misdirected aggression.
> 
> I don't like that this guy shot the dog. But I blame the owners of the shot dog completely for it happening.


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## Gwenhwyfair

....just know that knife cuts BOTH ways.




alexg said:


> As if this had never happened in the US ...


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## Jaythethird

selzer said:


> The farmer that killed the two huskie type dogs that killed her pigs.
> 
> The hunters that will shoot dogs running deer -- shoot, shovel, shut up.
> 
> The car that drives along and isn't able to stop when the dog darts out in the road. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
> 
> The guy with a gun walking his dog with his wife, who kills a loose GSD, for whatever reason.
> 
> 
> I am not sure how I can be more clear.


Farmers don't own livestock, they grow crops. Ranchers own livestock. 

Just pulling your leg a bit, figured I'd le everyone know that was a joke cause it is so serious here. 

But I agree the responsibility is that of the owner. But the instances I don't believe really comparable, at least not all lumped together. 

A car that can't stop in time to miss a dog is presumably going at the speed at which it wouldn't be logical to swerve and risk your own safety. 

A rancher must protect their land and stock, it is their bread and butter. It's their way of life. It is their job. Their income. Their happiness. It's not a nine to five. Their only choice is to do what's necessary to maintain their lives. 

The hunter has multiple choices. And ultimately is his choice to kill a dog. I would honestly have to say that both parties would be at fault there. It's pretty selfish. It could easily be handles with a live trap and a can of tuna in the area of the dog. 

The man walking, which obviously situations unknown, probably had a fewer time limit in which to act. Obviously he will have to live with his choice. The dog being out completely falls on the owner. But lethal force, I Donno I guess that's what has everyone stirred up. 

I just don't find it appeasing I guess. I have ran into a lot worse animals. Some I have shot, (mostly mountain lions rattlers and bobcats) some I haven't (a few mother moose, range bulls and black bear). 

And no, I don't prefer shooting rattlers I would rather use the 6ft shovel, but sometimes you just aren't packing a shovel. 

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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## selzer

So an elderly person walking a small dog with is wife, should wait for the dog to attack the small dog, or jump on his wife and knock her down, possibly causing her to die, in order to make sure that the dog was actually going to attack the dog or jump on the wife? 

If I am afraid of your dog, and it is running toward me, and in my incredible fear of dogs, I turn and try to run away, and trip and fall and break a knee, who is at fault? Me for running, or you for having a dog running toward me with nothing visibly preventing him from getting to me? 

I don't think you would have a prayer in court. Not only would your home-owner's insurance be dinged, but your dog might be labeled a nuisance. 

Look people, most people aren't going to shoot a beagle, or run away from a Yorkie. But the vast majority of people get GSDs because of their size, power, and ability to deter criminals if not protect and guard. We love this breed because they are intelligent, trainable, loyal, courageous, and can be trained to use their aggression and intelligence and instincts in many ways. How can we EVER call people's fear of them irrational. 

It is irrational to expect people to think your dog or large puppy is not going to hurt them or their dogs. Nobody out there has not seen a GSD work on a bad guy or helper either on the TV or on U-tube. And suddenly we should expect people to believe these dogs are big marshmellows that wouldn't hurt a flea. 

If you want to own a formidable dog, then train and contain it properly. And if you foul up, then don't boo hoo about the consequenses to the media to gain a giant pity party.


----------



## selzer

Jaythethird said:


> Farmers don't own livestock, they grow crops. Ranchers own livestock.
> 
> Just pulling your leg a bit, figured I'd le everyone know that was a joke cause it is so serious here.
> 
> But I agree the responsibility is that of the owner. But the instances I don't believe really comparable, at least not all lumped together.
> 
> A car that can't stop in time to miss a dog is presumably going at the speed at which it wouldn't be logical to swerve and risk your own safety.
> 
> A rancher must protect their land and stock, it is their bread and butter. It's their way of life. It is their job. Their income. Their happiness. It's not a nine to five. Their only choice is to do what's necessary to maintain their lives.
> 
> *The hunter has multiple choices. And ultimately is his choice to kill a dog. I would honestly have to say that both parties would be at fault there. It's pretty selfish. It could easily be handles with a live trap and a can of tuna in the area of the dog. *
> 
> The man walking, which obviously situations unknown, probably had a fewer time limit in which to act. Obviously he will have to live with his choice. The dog being out completely falls on the owner. But lethal force, I Donno I guess that's what has everyone stirred up.
> 
> I just don't find it appeasing I guess. I have ran into a lot worse animals. Some I have shot, (mostly mountain lions rattlers and bobcats) some I haven't (a few mother moose, range bulls and black bear).
> 
> And no, I don't prefer shooting rattlers I would rather use the 6ft shovel, but sometimes you just aren't packing a shovel.
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


Uhm the bolded is just not correct, a dog will run a deer to death -- hunters are encouraged to the point of it being a duty to shoot dogs running deer. A live trap will not work in this situation, sorry. The game warden stopped my dad, and told him if he saw any dogs running deer, shoot, shovel, and shut up. 

You're in Idaho, I am in Ohio. Ranchers live out on the range in the west. Farmers live round hear, and we all grow us some pigs, and cows, and sheep, and goats, and chickens, and horses. I got them all in my neighborhood. And not far away are alpacas, and well, I think that that is enough to be going on with. These are farmers, not ranchers. 

The point you are missing is that when your dog is out of your yard and on its own, there are all kinds of perils. You cannot manage which peril he will encounter. Why feel all broken up about him getting shot when he could have just as easily been smooshed?

I do not want my dog shot by anyone, farmer, hunter, guy walking his pooches, nor smooshed in the road. Therefore, I make sure that doesn't happen. If it does happen, then there is no gain in blaming any one but me.


----------



## loveformygermanshepherd

selzer
Look people said:


> Said it perfectly selzer. It is a different way of looking at it. The people that either have had a bad experience with a gsd or also seen what they can do with a sleeve, they are most understandably feared
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer

LOL, we can expect our dogs to deter housebreakers, and crack heads, guys who will shoot each other in gang wars, stab each other, beat each other with bottles, bats, and pipes. But ordinary citizens out for their daily walk should know that they will never hurt anybody. What was it? the knife cuts both ways? We can't have it both ways. We can't have a dog that is going to scare the bejesus out of a bad guy, and not put fear into ordinary people when the dog is obviously uncontrolled.


----------



## Sookie

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm going to disagree here. If something is *truly* dangerous or not doesn't change in reality based on perceptions. So my goofy Smitty dog is just as safe with a 5 year old as he is with 30 year old or a person in a wheelchair.
> 
> Just because one of those people 'fears' him doesn't change the reality.
> 
> The what if is going a bit too deep in the weeds argument-wise. What if's surround us all the time what should matter is was there intentional abuse or neglect that caused the 'what-if' accident.
> 
> Also, please don't conflate my argument with saying I condone irresponsible owners, I do not. I also don't condone people over-reacting and shooting dogs in public places if there was no clear indication that the dog was being aggressive.
> 
> I know I'm walking a fine line but the flip side of this coin is allowing *too much leeway* to fearful people.
> 
> Dog attacks are terrible but the fact is they really aren't as common as many people think they are.


Yes, and this was my point earlier - pages back - that you cannot allow preemptive shooting based on fear - be it shooting a dog or a person. Because obviously some people are fearful; I mentioned in another thread, only somewhat jokingly, that I assume every man at my door is a serial killer. But I don't shoot men who approach me in scary situations just because I am scared of them! Because, well, then you get cases like Yoshihiro Hattori, the Japanese exchange student shot and killed in Louisiana by a scared homeowner because he didn't understand what the homeowner was saying. *Obviously* there are differences between a shot dog and a shot human, but it is the same basic point: shooting based on a fear. And I really believe it is a very slippery slope because if it is okay to shoot to kill based on fear rather than in response to an actual attack, then it will be acceptable for someone scared to shoot your gsd while it is on leash if it barks at them or maybe growls. If it's okay to shoot based on fear, then you would never be able to take your dog out of the house, because how should Joe Scared Public know that you have control of your dog, even on leash? Maybe Joe Scared Public will say he didn't think I could control my big gsd because I am a 120lb woman - so he shot it down on the sidewalk while on leash because my gsd growled at his pomeranian. Not okay in my book. Because if preemptive violence is justified by a FEELING then anything goes and no one's pet is safe, on leash or off, on your property or not.


----------



## loveformygermanshepherd

selzer said:


> LOL, we can expect our dogs to deter housebreakers, and crack heads, guys who will shoot each other in gang wars, stab each other, beat each other with bottles, bats, and pipes. But ordinary citizens out for their daily walk should know that they will never hurt anybody. What was it? the knife cuts both ways? We can't have it both ways. We can't have a dog that is going to scare the bejesus out of a bad guy, and not put fear into ordinary people when the dog is obviously uncontrolled.


You would think that people would realize that if we have the dog out that it wouldn't hurt anybody but just like other breeds out there have been mis-labeled and from other stories on this forum of gsd's being kicked at dog parks, gsd's being treated differently from property management places all the list goes on... I believe that some people have labeled the gsd as a aggressive man eating beast.  and for those of us that have owned or own one know how sweet and gentle they can be. 

I honestly just think that this gsd owner was maybe thinking that this couple wouldn't be terrified of his gsd and they would accept her with open arms. But instead dalia met the end of a gun barrel  yes it was the owners fault for not having her under control, but it was also their fault for believing that all people like having a 80 pound gsd running up to greet them or their little dogs while out walking. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Let's flip that around some...

So a person (any person) over-reacts and discharges a firearm when there are a bunch of bystanders because he assumes it's Cujo coming at him and that's o.k.?

I'd be more frightened of the stray bullets then a dog, heck even when it's cops firing their weapons bystanders get hit.

I'll also extrapolate possible circumstances: There's many different 'kinds' that tote weapons around. 

How do you know this guy wasn't some sort of Dirty Harry wannabe? 

Actually since serious dog attacks are fairly rare (please see the link I shared earlier, it is very interesting) the irrational belief is assuming *any* kind of dog is really going to physically attack.

Where do you draw the line? If a dog is barking at a fearful person and putting it's paws on the fence, the fearful person is then allowed to shoot it because it was 'threatening'. How much leeway do we give to people making judgment calls based *purely* on *un*founded fears? 





selzer said:


> So an elderly person walking a small dog with is wife, should wait for the dog to attack the small dog, or jump on his wife and knock her down, possibly causing her to die, in order to make sure that the dog was actually going to attack the dog or jump on the wife?
> 
> If I am afraid of your dog, and it is running toward me, and in my incredible fear of dogs, I turn and try to run away, and trip and fall and break a knee, who is at fault? Me for running, or you for having a dog running toward me with nothing visibly preventing him from getting to me?
> 
> I don't think you would have a prayer in court. Not only would your home-owner's insurance be dinged, but your dog might be labeled a nuisance.
> 
> Look people, most people aren't going to shoot a beagle, or run away from a Yorkie. But the vast majority of people get GSDs because of their size, power, and ability to deter criminals if not protect and guard. We love this breed because they are intelligent, trainable, loyal, courageous, and can be trained to use their aggression and intelligence and instincts in many ways. How can we EVER call people's fear of them irrational.
> 
> It is irrational to expect people to think your dog or large puppy is not going to hurt them or their dogs. Nobody out there has not seen a GSD work on a bad guy or helper either on the TV or on U-tube. And suddenly we should expect people to believe these dogs are big marshmellows that wouldn't hurt a flea.
> 
> If you want to own a formidable dog, then train and contain it properly. And if you foul up, then don't boo hoo about the consequenses to the media to gain a giant pity party.


----------



## Jaythethird

selzer said:


> Uhm the bolded is just not correct, a dog will run a deer to death -- hunters are encouraged to the point of it being a duty to shoot dogs running deer. A live trap will not work in this situation, sorry. The game warden stopped my dad, and told him if he saw any dogs running deer, shoot, shovel, and shut up.
> 
> You're in Idaho, I am in Ohio. Ranchers live out on the range in the west. Farmers live round hear, and we all grow us some pigs, and cows, and sheep, and goats, and chickens, and horses. I got them all in my neighborhood. And not far away are alpacas, and well, I think that that is enough to be going on with. These are farmers, not ranchers.
> 
> The point you are missing is that when your dog is out of your yard and on its own, there are all kinds of perils. You cannot manage which peril he will encounter. Why feel all broken up about him getting shot when he could have just as easily been smooshed?
> 
> I do not want my dog shot by anyone, farmer, hunter, guy walking his pooches, nor smooshed in the road. Therefore, I make sure that doesn't happen. If it does happen, then there is no gain in blaming any one but me.


I forget you are in whitetail country. My bad. Carry on. 
Seems as if two civilizations will never agree. Just too far different and too little of time. 

Sorry I posted my opinion 

Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


----------



## selzer

Sookie said:


> Yes, and this was my point earlier - pages back - that you cannot allow preemptive shooting based on fear - be it shooting a dog or a person. Because obviously some people are fearful; I mentioned in another thread, only somewhat jokingly, that I assume every man at my door is a serial killer. But I don't shoot men who approach me in scary situations just because I am scared of them! Because, well, then you get cases like Yoshihiro Hattori, the Japanese exchange student shot and killed in Louisiana by a scared homeowner because he didn't understand what the homeowner was saying. *Obviously* there are differences between a shot dog and a shot human, but it is the same basic point: shooting based on a fear. And I really believe it is a very slippery slope because if it is okay to shoot to kill based on fear rather than in response to an actual attack, then it will be acceptable for someone scared to shoot your gsd while it is on leash if it barks at them or maybe growls. If it's okay to shoot based on fear, then you would never be able to take your dog out of the house, because how should Joe Scared Public know that you have control of your dog, even on leash? Maybe Joe Scared Public will say he didn't think I could control my big gsd because I am a 120lb woman - so he shot it down on the sidewalk while on leash because my gsd growled at his pomeranian. Not okay in my book. Because if preemptive violence is justified by a FEELING then anything goes and no one's pet is safe, on leash or off, on your property or not.



Well it would depend. If the owner had the dog on a prong collar and a flexi-lead -- I guess the case could be made for doing the dog a favor. 

Seriously though, why have a leash law? If the dog is on lead, another owner would have a heck of a time suggesting that the dog was out of control. But dogs on leash ARE out of control all the time. People DO get bitten while dogs are on leash. There is a little old guy where I usually train and he has this nasty little terrier, and the guy is oblivious, and well, I guess you have the picture. Also dogs on leash do not have the ability to flight, so fight or flight and flight is out of the picture what is left? Right, Fight. 

The thing is, if the dog is attached to you with an umbilical cord, the chances that between you and the other dog owner whose dog is attached, to be able to remove yourselves and your dogs from and altercation are so much higher than a dog darting out of a garage and accosting someone on the sidewalk. 

Most people see the dog first and think "Oh, it's big" and then they see the leash and VISIBLY RELAX. I am sure you have all seen this. People feel ok if the dog is leashed to a person. 

99.99% of the time, if you are right there, you can keep your dog from getting shot. Off lead or on, because most people really don't want to kill dogs, and usually you can grab your dog or recall it quick enough. But I don't like the odds for even a fraction of a percent. 

Cops are pretty darn courageous everyone tells me, but they shoot and kill GSDs. Why? Probably because they have seen what these dogs are capable of. I suppose all of those guys had rational fear, while Mr. I'm-Just-Out-Walking-My-Dog's fear is irrational. 

I just don't get it. 

Your chances of having a live dog at the end of the day go way up if you kept it properly leashed or contained. There is just no way around that fact. 

You folks want k-9s? You want police dogs? Then you have to protect them. It's really very simple.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. It's a balancing act but I think the degree of lethality should be justified by the degree of *actual* danger presented.

Slippery slopes have two sides....for sure.





Sookie said:


> Yes, and this was my point earlier - pages back - that you cannot allow preemptive shooting based on fear - be it shooting a dog or a person. Because obviously some people are fearful; I mentioned in another thread, only somewhat jokingly, that I assume every man at my door is a serial killer. But I don't shoot men who approach me in scary situations just because I am scared of them! Because, well, then you get cases like Yoshihiro Hattori, the Japanese exchange student shot and killed in Louisiana by a scared homeowner because he didn't understand what the homeowner was saying. *Obviously* there are differences between a shot dog and a shot human, but it is the same basic point: shooting based on a fear. And I really believe it is a very slippery slope because if it is okay to shoot to kill based on fear rather than in response to an actual attack, then it will be acceptable for someone scared to shoot your gsd while it is on leash if it barks at them or maybe growls. If it's okay to shoot based on fear, then you would never be able to take your dog out of the house, because how should Joe Scared Public know that you have control of your dog, even on leash? Maybe Joe Scared Public will say he didn't think I could control my big gsd because I am a 120lb woman - so he shot it down on the sidewalk while on leash because my gsd growled at his pomeranian. Not okay in my book. *Because if preemptive violence is justified by a FEELING then anything goes and no one's pet is safe,* on leash or off, on your property or not.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, not always true. I was working Ilda and Smitty with my trainer in the park last week. Even though they were on leash and clearly obedient dogs this guy would keep watching them over his shoulder as he was working loading/unloading something from his truck.

I've also met people who were afraid of my sister's 10 pound miniature poodle, truly I have.

Technically speaking an irrational fear is a fear based on an event that is unlikely or very unlikely to happen. Such as being afraid of flying in airplanes. 

Yes, planes crash and people die BUT that same person who is afraid of flying but doesn't mind driving a car is more likely to die in a car accident.



btw- I'm thinking your 90% right, a couple of us are just saying we can't constantly be giving in to people's fears because then that will affect OUR rights and freedoms to go places with our dogs.






selzer said:


> Well it would depend. If the owner had the dog on a prong collar and a flexi-lead -- I guess the case could be made for doing the dog a favor.
> 
> Seriously though, why have a leash law? If the dog is on lead, another owner would have a heck of a time suggesting that the dog was out of control. But dogs on leash ARE out of control all the time. People DO get bitten while dogs are on leash. There is a little old guy where I usually train and he has this nasty little terrier, and the guy is oblivious, and well, I guess you have the picture. Also dogs on leash do not have the ability to flight, so fight or flight and flight is out of the picture what is left? Right, Fight.
> 
> The thing is, if the dog is attached to you with an umbilical cord, the chances that between you and the other dog owner whose dog is attached, to be able to remove yourselves and your dogs from and altercation are so much higher than a dog darting out of a garage and accosting someone on the sidewalk.
> 
> Most people see the dog first and think "Oh, it's big" and then they see the leash and VISIBLY RELAX. I am sure you have all seen this. People feel ok if the dog is leashed to a person.
> 
> 99.99% of the time, if you are right there, you can keep your dog from getting shot. Off lead or on, because most people really don't want to kill dogs, and usually you can grab your dog or recall it quick enough. But I don't like the odds for even a fraction of a percent.
> 
> Cops are pretty darn courageous everyone tells me, but they shoot and kill GSDs. Why? Probably because they have seen what these dogs are capable of. I suppose all of those guys had rational fear, while Mr. I'm-Just-Out-Walking-My-Dog's fear is irrational.
> 
> I just don't get it.
> 
> Your chances of having a live dog at the end of the day go way up if you kept it properly leashed or contained. There is just no way around that fact.
> 
> You folks want k-9s? You want police dogs? Then you have to protect them. It's really very simple.


----------



## Sookie

selzer said:


> Seriously though, why have a leash law? If the dog is on lead, another owner would have a heck of a time suggesting that the dog was out of control.


But my whole point - the entire danger of the slippery slope here - is that by saying shooting due to FEAR is acceptable is that the shooter doesn't HAVE to suggest the dog is out of control. He just has to say he was afraid of it. That is my point. Anyone can be scared of any dog in any environment. This dog was a gsd - the next one could be a chihuahua. If it is okay to shoot based on FEAR then the shooter doesn't have to prove anything. He just has to say "I was scared it was going to attack." The whole concern I have is that this is how legal precedent gets set. And thus, if this is acceptable, then it is acceptable for any person to shoot any dog they think *may* attack - be the dog on leash and under control, or not.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Let's flip that around some...
> 
> So a person (any person) over-reacts and discharges a firearm when there are a bunch of bystanders because he assumes it's Cujo coming at him and that's o.k.?
> 
> I'd be more frightened of the stray bullets then a dog, heck even when it's cops firing their weapons bystanders get hit.
> 
> I'll also extrapolate possible circumstances: There's many different 'kinds' that tote weapons around.
> 
> How do you know this guy wasn't some sort of Dirty Harry wannabe?
> 
> Actually since serious dog attacks are fairly rare (please see the link I shared earlier, it is very interesting) the irrational belief is assuming *any* kind of dog is really going to physically attack.
> 
> *Where do you draw the line?* If a dog is barking at a fearful person and putting it's paws on the fence, the fearful person is then allowed to shoot it because it was 'threatening'. How much leeway do we give to people making judgment calls based *purely* on *un*founded fears?


Where would I draw the line? Is the dog contained. Is there a fence, is the dog contained by the fence -- the alternative is the dog is out and running about after it jumped over the fence. 

Is the dog leashed? If the dog is leashed to something solid or a person, than you can reasonably believe that you can get away from the dog. If the person does not bother, or is unable to prevent the dog from getting to you, then you need to protect yourself. 

I know you are allowed to protect yourself, and you are allowed to protect livestock. You are not necessarily allowed to kill a dog that is attacking your dog. At least not in Ohio. If you call the sherriff and tell him that the neighbor's dog is trying to EAT your dogs when you try to put them in the car, the sherriff WILL tell you very clearly, "If the dog is coming at you, shoot it." If you persist and say, that it's the dog that the dog is going for, they will him and haw and not tell you to shoot it. What they are telling you is what to say when the sherriff is called about you shooting the dog. 

Believing that everyone is Dirty Harry out there when it comes to loose dogs, keeps my dogs safe. If all ya'all want to change the world by putting your dogs in harm's way, then more power to ya.


----------



## KatsMuse

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Let's flip that around some...
> 
> So a person (any person) over-reacts and discharges a firearm when there are a bunch of bystanders because *he assumes it's Cujo coming at him* and that's o.k.?
> 
> I'd be more frightened of the stray bullets then a dog, heck even when it's cops firing their weapons bystanders get hit.
> 
> I'll also extrapolate possible circumstances: There's many different 'kinds' that tote weapons around.
> 
> How do you know this guy wasn't some sort of Dirty Harry wannabe?
> 
> Actually since serious dog attacks are fairly rare (please see the link I shared earlier, it is very interesting) *the irrational belief is assuming *any* kind of dog is really going to physically attack.*
> 
> Where do you draw the line? If a dog is barking at a fearful person and putting it's paws on the fence, the fearful person is then allowed to shoot it because it was 'threatening'. How much leeway do we give to people making judgment calls based *purely* on *un*founded fears?





Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup. It's a balancing act but *I think the degree of lethality should be justified by the degree of *actual* danger presented.*
> 
> Slippery slopes have two sides....for sure.


You know every time we have "a dog gets shot" thread, they seem to go haywire. 

If I live in in an area where I feel the need to 'tote a weapon'... What "kind" does that make me? 
(I don't believe I'm a ' Dirty Harry' Wannabe, as you put it. I'm cautious and allowed by law to carry, if I so desire.)

Would I shoot a dog just barking in his own yard behind a fence ? No.

The "perception of a threat" can be different for each person...that's the BOLDED part.

I also don't believe everything I read online, in the paper, or see on the news.

 Kat


----------



## DaniFani

I have an honest question, is it a common thing for people to shoot/use lethal force when a dog attacks? And "yeah, it happens all the time look in the news" doesn't cut it for me. The news only report on crazy stories. But in the grand scheme of things, statistically, I wonder how many dogs in dog attacks are actually killed. That means something too, because while people don't want to make laws based on fear, I don't want to have everyone get up in arms over something that really isn't occurring that much. This is one reason why the media drives me so freaking nuts lol. They can make it seem like something is happening all the time, every day, and it happens 1 in 10,000 times, or something crazy like that.

As I said earlier, most people I know have been involved in a dog fight/attack (usually at some silly off leash area), and the other half have a dog run at them that escaped (like that woman in a previous thread who was attacked by a husky). Of all the people I know I don't know a single person who even hurt the other dog, let alone used any kind of lethal force....of course this is anecdotal, maybe some of you have several friends that have shot dogs in defense...but I am just thinking it isn't this terrible thing that is occurring every day or even every week....or compared to the amount of attacks that actually occur, I would assume that the amount that end in a dead dog is a fraction of a fraction of a percent....anyway, I will see if I can find any statistics, because I could be dead wrong....there could be a lot of people using lethal force.....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Believing that every gun totin' citizen is of the soundest and surest judgment ain't right either. 

Not that I believe you think that way, just illustrating that I don't think this is black or white either.

Anyhoo, I do get where you're coming from. I just putting a little bit of pressure back on the other side because I can see how the pendulum can swing too far the other direction.

(btw...as you know, I do enjoy our debates here because you do not make or take things personally........)




selzer said:


> Where would I draw the line? Is the dog contained. Is there a fence, is the dog contained by the fence -- the alternative is the dog is out and running about after it jumped over the fence.
> 
> Is the dog leashed? If the dog is leashed to something solid or a person, than you can reasonably believe that you can get away from the dog. If the person does not bother, or is unable to prevent the dog from getting to you, then you need to protect yourself.
> 
> I know you are allowed to protect yourself, and you are allowed to protect livestock. You are not necessarily allowed to kill a dog that is attacking your dog. At least not in Ohio. If you call the sherriff and tell him that the neighbor's dog is trying to EAT your dogs when you try to put them in the car, the sherriff WILL tell you very clearly, "If the dog is coming at you, shoot it." If you persist and say, that it's the dog that the dog is going for, they will him and haw and not tell you to shoot it. What they are telling you is what to say when the sherriff is called about you shooting the dog.
> 
> Believing that everyone is Dirty Harry out there when it comes to loose dogs, keeps my dogs safe. If all ya'all want to change the world by putting your dogs in harm's way, then more power to ya.


----------



## selzer

Ok, I get your point, but, if the dog is not on leash (if there is a leash law, your area may not have one), then when the cops come to sort it all out, then Mr. Scared-Of-Everything-On-Four-Feet is going to say the dog was uncontrolled and tried to bite me. The cop will ask was it on a leash? Yes. Ok, show me the claw and teeth marks. 

If the dog is not on leash, then the guy is much more credible. 

Most of the people carrying guns out there, at least in Ohio, legally, aren't going to risk their CCP, for target practice on a friendly dog. No one wants that kind of heat. 

I think we are all silly for worrying about it. So far in 45 years no one has shot any dog that I was out with, nor any dog owned by my friends or relatives, nor any dog that I trained with, nor any dog whose owners I have known even in passing. I just can't lose sleep over it. If the dog will rush out to meet a dog, what's to stop the dog from rushing out to meet a bigger badder dog that takes him down and chews his throat off -- I am sure that would be the owner of the bigger badder's dog's throat because he had an aggressive dog in public or something.


----------



## loveformygermanshepherd

Jaythethird said:


> I forget you are in whitetail country. My bad. Carry on.
> Seems as if two civilizations will never agree. Just too far different and too little of time.
> 
> Sorry I posted my opinion
> 
> Howdy from Idaho!
> Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden
> 08/03/13


Don't be sorry you posted your opinion jay  everyone has one, and talking from experience, not everyone is going to agree with everything. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's not 'haywire' it's engaging in a debate. Which is hard to have these days, debates that is. 

You gotta be careful with how you take points made in a debate. There's a certain amount of 'creative rhetoric' used to drive home a point. 

So please don't take these comments too literally.  



KatsMuse said:


> You know every time we have "a dog gets shot" thread, they seem to go haywire.
> 
> If I live in in an area where I feel the need to 'tote a weapon'... What "kind" does that make me?
> (I don't believe I'm a ' Dirty Harry' Wannabe, as you put it. I'm cautious and allowed by law to carry, if I so desire.)
> 
> Would I shoot a dog just barking in his own yard behind a fence ? No.
> 
> The "perception of a threat" can be different for each person...that's the BOLDED part.
> 
> I also don't believe everything I read online, in the paper, or see on the news.
> 
> Kat


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## Sookie

Again, I think my point below answers these... Not about unleashed or leashed. It's about establishing a precedent justifying killing based on fear, regardless of whether your dog is on a leash. If fear justifies shooting a dog, then nothing you can do will keep your dog safe, bar keeping it in your house and on your property where no one can see it. The point is not whether it is likely someone will shoot your dog on leash or not, the point is that it is considered fine to do so, with no repercussions, because it is justified by a feeling of fear. legally, it is terrifying to think someone could shoot my dog with no consequences based on how she looks rather than her actions. I think it is simple: people should not be allowed to shoot anything (or, ahem, anyone) because they *look* scary or because they *feel* afraid.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This guy wasn't charged and by all accounts the dog is friendly (unless I missed some info? which is possible).

In blue - I don't want to get into that because it strays into 2A issues but let's just say it's not really cut and dried.......humans are very complicated critters with different motivators.




selzer said:


> Ok, I get your point, but, if the dog is not on leash (if there is a leash law, your area may not have one), then when the cops come to sort it all out, then Mr. Scared-Of-Everything-On-Four-Feet is going to say the dog was uncontrolled and tried to bite me. The cop will ask was it on a leash? Yes. Ok, show me the claw and teeth marks.
> 
> If the dog is not on leash, then the guy is much more credible.
> 
> Most of the people carrying guns out there, at least in Ohio, legally, aren't going to risk their CCP, for target practice on a friendly dog. No one wants that kind of heat.
> 
> I think we are all silly for worrying about it. So far in 45 years no one has shot any dog that I was out with, nor any dog owned by my friends or relatives, nor any dog that I trained with, nor any dog whose owners I have known even in passing. I just can't lose sleep over it. If the dog will rush out to meet a dog, what's to stop the dog from rushing out to meet a bigger badder dog that takes him down and chews his throat off -- I am sure that would be the owner of the bigger badder's dog's throat because he had an aggressive dog in public or something.


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## DaniFani

Sookie said:


> But my whole point - the entire danger of the slippery slope here - is that by saying shooting due to FEAR is acceptable is that the shooter doesn't HAVE to suggest the dog is out of control. He just has to say he was afraid of it. That is my point. Anyone can be scared of any dog in any environment. This dog was a gsd - the next one could be a chihuahua. If it is okay to shoot based on FEAR then the shooter doesn't have to prove anything. He just has to say "I was scared it was going to attack." The whole concern I have is that this is how legal precedent gets set. And thus, if this is acceptable, then it is acceptable for any person to shoot any dog they think *may* attack - be the dog on leash and under control, or not.


Are we saying that you can shoot due too fear? I thought we were talking about neutralizing a THREAT. A GSD, rottie, dobie, pit, etc....running at you, unleashed, out of control, is a threat....it is....I would be SHOCKED if this guy got cited for shooting this dog...it was a large dog, running at him, and chasing his dogs around his wife and his feet...

Here's another thought for you...maybe the dog wasn't acting aggressively (I'm willing to bet she was just in a high prey drive)...but why is even that okay? A gsd is a big/strong animal, and those not raised with smaller animals many not know how to play with them...and could absolutely kill them on accident by playing too rough....you are trying to debate by using these extreme, unlikely, inapplicable examples....slippery slope scenarios are a funny thing, usually people using them would not be okay if they were applied to a debate that didn't favor their opinion. 

Trying to say that if we say it's okay for a man to defend his wife and pet from a large GSD running at them (and the dog wasn't even running at them, it was at their feet, chasing their dog around...they did NOT shoot the dog running at them, they shot after it wouldn't stop chasing their dog) will lead to people shooting a dog that growls on them from a lead, is just such an extremist scare tactic...it's the same thing that gets gun control enthusiasts mad when the anti-gun control people say, "if we let them take our assault rifles we are eventually going to take all our guns, and THEN the govt will take over and we will have no defense against them." How come people shake their heads at that slippery slope argument, but not the "if you shoot a charging, chasing, GSD then all dogs are going to be shot, even ones that are tied up." 

To me, the extreme slippery slop argument is a very weak one, and something people cling to when they have nothing left to argue/debate their opinion. Yes, slippery slopes exist, but to start freaking out that people are going to shoot your on-leash, walking dog for growling, because THAT's WHERE WE'RE HEADED is such an annoying scare tactic.


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## selzer

DaniFani said:


> I have an honest question, is it a common thing for people to shoot/use lethal force when a dog attacks? And "yeah, it happens all the time look in the news" doesn't cut it for me. The news only report on crazy stories. But in the grand scheme of things, statistically, I wonder how many dogs in dog attacks are actually killed. That means something too, because while people don't want to make laws based on fear, I don't want to have everyone get up in arms over something that really isn't occurring that much. This is one reason why the media drives me so freaking nuts lol. They can make it seem like something is happening all the time, every day, and it happens 1 in 10,000 times, or something crazy like that.
> 
> As I said earlier, most people I know have been involved in a dog fight/attack (usually at some silly off leash area), and the other half have a dog run at them that escaped (like that woman in a previous thread who was attacked by a husky). Of all the people I know I don't know a single person who even hurt the other dog, let alone used any kind of lethal force....of course this is anecdotal, maybe some of you have several friends that have shot dogs in defense...but I am just thinking it isn't this terrible thing that is occurring every day or even every week....or compared to the amount of attacks that actually occur, I would assume that the amount that end in a dead dog is a fraction of a fraction of a percent....anyway, I will see if I can find any statistics, because I could be dead wrong....there could be a lot of people using lethal force.....



I must have been typing my last post when you posted this question, and no, I have never used force on any dog, whether it was actually acting aggressively to me or my dogs or not. Once when riding my bike at 2AM down a deserted stretch of rural highway, I used HALT on a Doberman Pincher because it was going for my foot and it was at my pedal. Right in the face, and it stopped fell into the ditch, and I have no clue what happened to it after that. 

Postal carriers use that stuff. When I was young, dumb, and more athletic than I currently am, I used to ride bikes all night in the country, from town to town. Dogs would chase me on occasion, usually until I got off their set territorial limit. Only that one time did any dog ever come near enough. Later on when I would ride with my sister, I would hear toenails, and I would hang back so if the dog attacked anyone it would be me. Guess I was pretty scared of them. But that is my point, I'm a dog-person. I am not afraid of just any dog.

I have seen what dogs can do to other dogs. Mostly my own bitches having fights, and that is a awful spectacle. It can kill a person with a bad ticker, I am sure. The adrenalin, the lack of rational thought -- I put my fingers in an attacking German Shepherd's mouth trying to pull the teeth apart -- that's nuts. 

And I have heard of big dogs killing small dogs. My brother's dog was pretty chewed up by a GSD. I really don't think that fear is all that irrational. It doesn't take much for a large dog to pick up a small one and shake it, or cut it open.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm going to guess the answer is probably pretty rare.

The other side (like Sookie points out, precedent) will it become more common as an accepted way of dealing with 'threatening dogs'? Which comes full circle to your point about media where stories about dangerous dog attacks make them appear to be more common then they are.

That would then create an atmosphere that someone is more likely to shoot a dog because they 'believe' dogs are on the whole more dangerous then they really are in reality.






DaniFani said:


> I have an honest question, is it a common thing for people to shoot/use lethal force when a dog attacks? And "yeah, it happens all the time look in the news" doesn't cut it for me. The news only report on crazy stories. But in the grand scheme of things, statistically, I wonder how many dogs in dog attacks are actually killed. That means something too, because while people don't want to make laws based on fear, I don't want to have everyone get up in arms over something that really isn't occurring that much. This is one reason why the media drives me so freaking nuts lol. They can make it seem like something is happening all the time, every day, and it happens 1 in 10,000 times, or something crazy like that.
> 
> As I said earlier, most people I know have been involved in a dog fight/attack (usually at some silly off leash area), and the other half have a dog run at them that escaped (like that woman in a previous thread who was attacked by a husky). Of all the people I know I don't know a single person who even hurt the other dog, let alone used any kind of lethal force....of course this is anecdotal, maybe some of you have several friends that have shot dogs in defense...but I am just thinking it isn't this terrible thing that is occurring every day or even every week....or compared to the amount of attacks that actually occur, I would assume that the amount that end in a dead dog is a fraction of a fraction of a percent....anyway, I will see if I can find any statistics, because I could be dead wrong....there could be a lot of people using lethal force.....


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## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This guy wasn't charged and *by all accounts the dog is friendly* (unless I missed some info? which is possible).
> 
> In blue - I don't want to get into that because it strays into 2A issues but let's just say it's not really cut and dried.......humans are very complicated critters with different motivators.


But, does it matter if the dog was friendly? Who's shoulders does it fall on to determine that? Does it come with being a human being that you have to be able to look at a dog running at you and determine instantly if it's nice or not? Or that it should be okay for the dog to run around their feet, chasing their dogs, and you should be able to know that the dog is just playing, *probably won't hurt your dog, and just wait for the owner to get out and call it off?

Like I said, if it was me by myself, lethal force would be out of the question...but if I was with my little son, and the dog came running out, chasing my son, nipping and "playing" should I just let it happen, because I am innately supposed to know that it's a friendly dog and won't really hurt him...even though to my untrained eyes, it looks like he'd really like to take a nice bite out of my son?? (see, I can play the slippery slope game too). And further more, am I actually NOT allowed to defend my son/dog/friend/whatever from the GSD because if I do I will get in trouble?? I think people are way more scared nowadays to actually use their weapon to defend themselves because of the stigmas and media attention...NOT saying that's a bad thing, you better be prepared to defend your reasoning and have good reasoning at that....just saying I don't see a world full of rambos...but I tend to try not to assume extremes are the norm...because I have yet to see statistics that show extremes everywhere....maybe obesity....that's an extreme that is occuring I guess


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## selzer

Sookie said:


> Again, I think my point below answers these... Not about unleashed or leashed. It's about establishing a precedent justifying killing based on fear, regardless of whether your dog is on a leash. If fear justifies shooting a dog, then nothing you can do will keep your dog safe, bar keeping it in your house and on your property where no one can see it. The point is not whether it is likely someone will shoot your dog on leash or not, the point is that it is considered fine to do so, with no repercussions, because it is justified by a feeling of fear. legally, it is terrifying to think someone could shoot my dog with no consequences based on how she looks rather than her actions. I think it is simple: people should not be allowed to shoot anything (or, ahem, anyone) because they *look* scary or because they *feel* afraid.


So one must wait until it slices their dog up or bites their wife, or knocks down the old lady and is not stopping? Where is your line then? At what point can you use lethal force? Only after a killing blow is dealt? 

And elderly person being knocked down by a large dog can die. That is just a fact. If a large dog is running toward or around and around an elderly person that might die if she falls and breaks a hip or pelvis, I think that if you can stop the dog, do it. I really don't care as much about ANY dog as I do about a person that might be killed by something the dog does. Sorry. My mother has mobility and balance issues as well as being blind in an eye, and couldn't take a serious fall. She stays home most of time. But she does have to go to the doctor's quite frequently. If a huge dog was running toward her, or running around her trying to get to her purse (no little dog here), then I think my dad would be right in trying to take the dog out, however he managed it. He isn't any spring chicken either, and I am not looking forward to losing him either. How many more shoulder surgeries does he have in him? Another torn rotator cup is not an experience I want to go through again. And a broken hip? Sorry, shoot the dog. 

My dad has to exercise for his diabetes, and he does walk some. I don't think he would shoot a dog that rushed toward him. But he would if Mom was there. 

A dog's life may be worth a serious injury to someone, but all the owner would have had to do was to contain their dog, and it would not have happened. 

How would any of you feel if your dog rushed up and knocked over a little old guy, and he broke something, was in the hospital for months, and you found out he never made it out of the hospital? The guy might have had several more years, or he could have fallen the next week. No way to know. But knowing your dog did that -- now the little girls' grandpa will never teach them how to fish. It's awful. We need to protect our dogs by keeping them contained. A dog does not have to be the Tasmanian Devil Dog to injure someone really badly.


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## Sookie

DaniFani said:


> Are we saying that you can shoot due too fear? I thought we were talking about neutralizing a THREAT. A GSD, rottie, dobie, pit, etc....running at you, unleashed, out of control, is a threat....it is....I would be SHOCKED if this guy got cited for shooting this dog...it was a large dog, running at him, and chasing his dogs around his wife and his feet...
> 
> Here's another thought for you...maybe the dog wasn't acting aggressively (I'm willing to bet she was just in a high prey drive)...but why is even that okay? A gsd is a big/strong animal, and those not raised with smaller animals many not know how to play with them...and could absolutely kill them on accident by playing too rough....you are trying to debate by using these extreme, unlikely, inapplicable examples....slippery slope scenarios are a funny thing, usually people using them would not be okay if they were applied to a debate that didn't favor their opinion.
> 
> Trying to say that if we say it's okay for a man to defend his wife and pet from a large GSD running at them (and the dog wasn't even running at them, it was at their feet, chasing their dog around...they did NOT shoot the dog running at them, they shot after it wouldn't stop chasing their dog) will lead to people shooting a dog that growls on them from a lead, is just such an extremist scare tactic...it's the same thing that gets gun control enthusiasts mad when the anti-gun control people say, "if we let them take our assault rifles we are eventually going to take all our guns, and THEN the govt will take over and we will have no defense against them." How come people shake their heads at that slippery slope argument, but not the "if you shoot a charging, chasing, GSD then all dogs are going to be shot, even ones that are tied up."
> 
> To me, the extreme slippery slop argument is a very weak one, and something people cling to when they have nothing left to argue/debate their opinion. Yes, slippery slopes exist, but to start freaking out that people are going to shoot your on-leash, walking dog for growling, because THAT's WHERE WE'RE HEADED is such an annoying scare tactic.


Okay, then let me be more clear. It is not a slippery slope, it just is. It is not okay to shoot an animal just because you are afraid. And that is what we are talking about. A man was scared of the dog - it sounds like it wasn't being aggressive - but he is legally allowed to shoot it because he was scared. The simple fact that he, wife, and dog are unharmed is proof that the gsd was not a threat. Unless you believe he was such super fast he acted a millisecond before tragedy struck. The whole point is, I repeat, that people fear different things in different ways, and because fears are not often grounded, it should not be okay to kill based on them. I am NOT , I repeat, NOT afraid people will randomly start shooting on leash dogs saying they were afraid, but I am outraged that it is a viable defense. Just like I do not believe people go around shooting minorities who happen to wander onto their property - but I am outraged that, like the case of Yoshihiro Hattori, the unjustified fear of a homeowner legally allowed him to shoot a student dead with no repercussions. So, I suppose my point is less that it is a slippery slope, then it is simply a very bad loophole to allow fear as a defense when it comes to shooting and killing. It is NOT a scare tactic, that is how legal precedent works! That is why people get all angry when murderers use a Twinkie defense - right? Because a precedent has been set. So don't think of it as a slippery slope if you think that I am employing scare tactics, just realize that it IS a precedent that will allow a certain number of people to shoot and kill dogs who were not at all dangerous and were not off leash or off property. That is just a fact based on the law as it stands.


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## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm going to guess the answer is probably pretty rare.
> 
> The other side (like Sookie points out, precedent) will it become more common as an accepted way of dealing with 'threatening dogs'? Which comes full circle to your point about media where stories about dangerous dog attacks make them appear to be more common then they are.
> 
> That would then create an atmosphere that someone is more likely to shoot a dog because they 'believe' dogs are on the whole more dangerous then they really are in reality.


My completely emotional, probably way-to-optimistic-expectations of humans, answer, would be I think even with heightened media attention, bottom line, I think *most human beings couldn't just willy nilly take a life....sometimes I think people are way more sympathetic and understanding when it comes to an animal than they ever are even with a human. 

For example....I watched this movie "Olympus has Fallen" pretty cheesy action thriller movie, but anyway, one of the scenes 1000's of people are being killed, and as a audience member I'm thinking it's terrible that all those people are dying, but then a police officer lets a dog go to attack and the dog is shot and killed...as the audience member I have no emotional investment to this dog anymore than all the extras that were being "killed" but something about the yelp and death of that dog made me react more than ALLLLL the humans being shot. Same with that movie with WIll smith where he has to kill his GSD, I cried when he killed the dog, not when his wife and child were killed in the beginning...granted I was more emotionally invested in the dog's "character." 

But I just think us humans can yell, shout, and pound our chests, but when push comes to shove...I really believe we will choose the least confrontational way of dealing with things before the most confrontational...lethal force....of course there are fringe people who don't act like that...and they are the ones in the news....but, overall, I don't think taking your dog for a walk is going to become a "hopefully my dog doesn't get shot" scenario....although, like I said, I can be painfully optimistic sometimes....someone has to be, right? lol


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## Gwenhwyfair

Can't really argue with you on some of this because it heads off into 2A territory but there is such a thing as social norms shifting despite reality.

Yeah, sometimes it does matter if the dog was friendly, especially when a firearm is used in a residential area.

There are numerous things this man AND his wife could have done instead of shooting the dog. 

In blue, I haven't made absolute or declarative statements like that so where are you getting the below from? 

Are we talking with each other or are you debating another person?





DaniFani said:


> But, does it matter if the dog was friendly? Who's shoulders does it fall on to determine that? Does it come with being a human being that you have to be able to look at a dog running at you and determine instantly if it's nice or not? Or that it should be okay for the dog to run around their feet, chasing their dogs, and you should be able to know that the dog is just playing, *probably won't hurt your dog, and just wait for the owner to get out and call it off?
> 
> Like I said, if it was me by myself, lethal force would be out of the question...but if I was with my little son, and the dog came running out, chasing my son, nipping and "playing" should I just let it happen, because I am innately supposed to know that it's a friendly dog and won't really hurt him...even though to my untrained eyes, it looks like he'd really like to take a nice bite out of my son?? (see, I can play the slippery slope game too). And further more, am I actually NOT allowed to defend my son/dog/friend/whatever from the GSD because if I do I will get in trouble?? I think people are way more scared nowadays to actually use their weapon to defend themselves because of the stigmas and media attention...NOT saying that's a bad thing, you better be prepared to defend your reasoning and have good reasoning at that....just saying I don't see a world full of rambos...but I tend to try not to assume extremes are the norm...because I have yet to see statistics that show extremes everywhere....maybe obesity....that's an extreme that is occuring I guess


----------



## DaniFani

Sookie said:


> Okay, then let me be more clear. It is not a slippery slope, it just is. It is not okay to shoot an animal just because you are afraid. And that is what we are talking about. A man was scared of the dog - it sounds like it wasn't being aggressive - but he is legally allowed to shoot it because he was scared. The simple fact that he, wife, and dog are unharmed is proof that the gsd was not a threat. Unless you believe he was such super fast he acted a millisecond before tragedy struck. The whole point is, I repeat, that people fear different things in different ways, and because fears are not often grounded, it should not be okay to kill based on them. I am NOT , I repeat, NOT afraid people will randomly start shooting on leash dogs saying they were afraid, but I am outraged that it is a viable defense. Just like I do not believe people go around shooting minorities who happen to wander onto their property - but I am outraged that, like the case of Yoshihiro Hattori, the unjustified fear of a homeowner legally allowed him to shoot a student dead with no repercussions. So, I suppose my point is less that it is a slippery slope, then it is simply a very bad loophole to allow fear as a defense when it comes to shooting and killing. It is NOT a scare tactic, that is how legal precedent works! That is why people get all angry when murderers use a Twinkie defense - right? Because a precedent has been set. So don't think of it as a slippery slope if you think that I am employing scare tactics, just realize that it IS a precedent that will allow a certain number of people to shoot and kill dogs who were not at all dangerous and were not off leash or off property. That is just a fact based on the law as it stands.


It's easy after the fact, or when you aren't the person who's dog is being chased around your feet by a 80+ lb dog, to say, "well, obviously it wasn't a threat, obviously the man over reacted, obviously this is now setting a precedence." I disagree....and I guess we'll just agree to disagree....the second we start seeing people shooting a passing, on-leash, dog, I'll be the first to "pound the nails in" as selzer said, ....but I think the man had a right to defend his dog...and I absolutely think you are employing "slippery slope" tactics...you are saying because this man shot a dog chasing his dog around his feet, off leash, out of control (the dog was NOT in control in any way shape or form), that it will lead to people shooting a dog...on a leash....walking by....that is a slippery slope argument........but we just fundamentally disagree, you think that humans should be able to tell if a dog, off leash, chasing their leashed dogs, on a side walk, is friendly or not....I disagree....those people have every right to walk down the side walk, un-accosted....

Like I said, if this dog was tied up, on leash, or they were at an unleashed dog park....different story....but imo, it is not the smaller dog's owners responsibility to look out for anyone else's dog, except his own....we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sookie's got a point ya know....


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## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Can't really argue with you on some of this because it heads off into 2A territory but there is such a thing as social norms shifting despite reality.
> 
> There are numerous things this man AND his wife could have done instead of shooting the dog.
> 
> In blue, I haven't made absolute or declarative statements like that so where are you getting the below from?
> 
> *Are we talking with each other or are you debating another person?*


Not you....and I absolutely agree that the man and wife had other options...where I tend to question is, was it their responsibility legally, morally, what have you....to explore those options? Or did they choose an option they had every right to choose, that could have been prevented if the GSD owner took care of his dog the way he was supposed to?....lets not forget the fact that this dog has been reported to be out a lot more than once....the owner should have been cited every time.....It's kind of like everyone wanting stricter gun control laws after Sandy Hook....but no where was their talk of taking a good long look at our mental health system....that infuriated me...There needs to be an all-encompassing self reflection by our country......with, I think, mental health at the top of the list...it took the tradgedy at the navy yard....where a guy tried multiple times to seek mental health and didn't get it...for us to be like "hmmm, maybe it isn't just the guns.." It's the same thing here, we are so quick to expect people to DEAL with out of control dogs....and only a small bit of attention and "heat" is brought on the source of the entire problem...someone not properly confining their animal...multiple times....we never want to put responsibility on the "actor" only the "reactor." If that makes sense. 

PS. Don't mean to bring in politics, just trying to show a correlation to help people to understand my thoughts.  Not debating politics or gun control, just showing a trend in our country to blame the people that are "dealing" with the problem...instead of the actual problem.


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## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sookie's got a point ya know....


Guess we'll agree to disagree.....I think sookie is using an extreme slippery slope scare tactic. If I am ever scared to walk my dog because I think someone will shoot him, then I will eat my hat.....I understand the thought process of you sookie, just disagree.


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## selzer

A lot fewer dogs would be killed by cars, if more dog owners believed every pedestrian was a dog-killing, gun-toting, Dirty Harry Wannabe. 

Deal with the problem. The problem is loose dogs. Let's keep them contained folks. And we won't have to worry about it. 

Let's not worry about what precendent this incident _might_ set. Let's set a new precedent, let's set a precedent that dog owners are responsible for their dogs, dog people keep their dogs safe.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh O.K I wasn't sure if you were referring to some points I made earlier. 

In purple, true.

RE: slippery slopes, they are and aren't a logical fallacy. I used to be of the opinion they were always a logical fallacy, but then I started to think another way, to look at it as pendulum swings.

Public opinion does shift and sometimes it'll shift too far out of center for comfort and that's where the 'slippery slope' comes in.

*If* it can be documented then it's a truism, right? When it comes to the use of lethal force then the rate of incidence per capita tolerance levels naturally go down so slight shifts are perceived as more extreme...if that makes sense?

anyhoo, check your latest PM gotta run.

Enjoyed the discussion. 





DaniFani said:


> Not you....and I absolutely agree that the man and wife had other options...where I tend to question is, was it their responsibility legally, morally, what have you....to explore those options? Or did they choose an option they had every right to choose, that could have been prevented if the GSD owner took care of his dog the way he was supposed to?....lets not forget the fact that this dog has been reported to be out a lot more than once....the owner should have been cited every time.....It's kind of like everyone wanting stricter gun control laws after Sandy Hook....but no where was their talk of taking a good long look at our mental health system....that infuriated me...There needs to be an all-encompassing self reflection by our country......with, I think, mental health at the top of the list...it took the tradgedy at the navy yard....where a guy tried multiple times to seek mental health and didn't get it...for us to be like "hmmm, maybe it isn't just the guns.." It's the same thing here, we are so quick to expect people to DEAL with out of control dogs....and only a small bit of attention and "heat" is brought on the source of the entire problem...someone not properly confining their animal...multiple times....we never want to put responsibility on the "actor" only the "reactor." If that makes sense.
> 
> PS. Don't mean to bring in politics, just trying to show a correlation to help people to understand my thoughts.  Not debating politics or gun control, just showing a trend in our country to blame the people that are "dealing" with the problem...instead of the actual problem.


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## DaniFani

I would worry about a precedent if I believed the man that shot the dog was 100% in the wrong....but I don't....that's where you and I will, I guess, just not agree, Sookie. 

I would be worried about a precedent if I thought something 100% wrong was done, and gotten away with....but I do.not.think this person was 100% wrong....any of your other extreme examples, shooting a leashed/fenced dog, and the shooter got away with it...I would be the first to agree that a horrible precedent was set....but that isn't what happened here....a large dog ran up to a couple with two small dogs, was chasing their dogs around, was out of control, and was killed...regardless of play or not, I PERSONALLY do not believe for a second that that responsibility lays on the little dog owners shoulders...at.all...therefore you and I disagree that a "bad" precedent was set. If I believe anything I hope more people, like OP, think a little harder about containing and controlling/training their dogs...and that's a good precedent in my book ;-). Yes, accidents happen, but legally it is not the other dog owners responsibility to DEAL with the GSD owners "accidents."......I use the term "accident" very very lightly here, because this woman's dog has gotten out on multiple occasions....hence the complete lack of sympathy for her...at all.....


And you keep talking about fear....if you are threatened are you not "fearful." Yes, I agree that it has to be a reasonable reason for feeling "threatened"....i think that's even in the law....and you and I just disagree whether or not this man "should have" felt threatened/fearful....as selzer pointed out, we get these dogs BECAUSE they are intimidating, and then you expect people to not be intimidated/fearful of them running at them and chasing their little dogs...that just does not make sense to me at all....again, agree to disagree...neither of us are going to convince the other whether the man was justified or not.....I do not think a precedence was set, except hopefully people will control/contain/train their dogs better, and we all know that is a rare thing in this country as well ....that's all.


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## Sookie

DaniFani said:


> Guess we'll agree to disagree.....I think sookie is using an extreme slippery slope scare tactic. If I am ever scared to walk my dog because I think someone will shoot him, then I will eat my hat.....I understand the thought process of you sookie, just disagree.


You are misunderstanding me completely.


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## DaniFani

Sookie said:


> You are misunderstanding me completely.


okay


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## Nigel

I think its a case of a trigger happy idiot with an over active imagination (witnesses corroborating with the dogs owner version of no aggression) meets irresponsible GSD owner (dog allowed to meet and greet strangers uncontrolled/supervised.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

I see 2 good and informative sides to this... I do NOT believe that this guy had any right to shoot the dog. I DO believe that the owner shouldn't have let dalia run out. I also agree that this man acted out of pure fear and nothing else. From what i gather from the video and the article is that all this happened within seconds and for the guy to react that fast by just pulling his gun, I don't believe that he had enough time to actually try to think of other options. But shooting her was not right. And I will stick to that, and I hope that the prosecutors office decides to press chargers on the shooter. 

Now dani, just curious? Where are you getting that these were small dogs or a small dog that the man was walking? In the video it shows 2 full size huskies. Now whether those are the people or no I don't know, It does say that they didn't want to be revealed... Just wondering if I missed something 

And selzer I completely agree with you that if we want to stop seeing this tragic stories then we must contain our dogs and make sure that WE keep them safe at all times  

Sookie I see where your coming from too. I also do wonder sometimes if people are going to able to justify shooting or killing something based out of fear and fear alone. There have been plenty of times in my life that I have wanted some sort of weapon in my hand even though the situations never turned that way. I myself tend to be on the more fearful sides of things.. About everything. A guy walking by my house when I'm alone, walking to my car at the store when I'm alone.. The list goes on. And now a days I feel like there are a ton of people out there just like me, who would base their decisions strictly on fear, so who's to say that, take tonight for instance. I'm walking maxx and there was a accident in my neighborhood and there were 3 cop cars. Cops walking everywhere and tons of people watching the events taking place. Maxx was alert the whole time, watching people and if anybody got to close, he would let out a bark ( we're still working on reactivity) and this lady walking her 2 big dogs across the street, maxx' hackles went up and he was barking. When I got home and thought about it.. What if someone felt threatened? What could they do, and get away with?? 


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## DaniFani

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> I see 2 good and informative sides to this... I do NOT believe that this guy had any right to shoot the dog. I DO believe that the owner shouldn't have let dalia run out. I also agree that this man acted out of pure fear and nothing else. From what i gather from the video and the article is that all this happened within seconds and for the guy to react that fast by just pulling his gun, I don't believe that he had enough time to actually try to think of other options. But shooting her was not right. And I will stick to that, and I hope that the prosecutors office decides to press chargers on the shooter.
> 
> *Now dani, just curious? Where are you getting that these were small dogs or a small dog that the man was walking? In the video it shows 2 full size huskies. Now whether those are the people or no I don't know, It does say that they didn't want to be revealed... Just wondering if I missed something *
> 
> And selzer I completely agree with you that if we want to stop seeing this tragic stories then we must contain our dogs and make sure that WE keep them safe at all times
> 
> Sookie I see where your coming from too. I also do wonder sometimes if people are going to able to justify shooting or killing something based out of fear and fear alone. There have been plenty of times in my life that I have wanted some sort of weapon in my hand even though the situations never turned that way. I myself tend to be on the more fearful sides of things.. About everything. A guy walking by my house when I'm alone, walking to my car at the store when I'm alone.. The list goes on. And now a days I feel like there are a ton of people out there just like me, who would base their decisions strictly on fear, so who's to say that, take tonight for instance. I'm walking maxx and there was a accident in my neighborhood and there were 3 cop cars. Cops walking everywhere and tons of people watching the events taking place. Maxx was alert the whole time, watching people and if anybody got to close, he would let out a bark ( we're still working on reactivity) and this lady walking her 2 big dogs across the street, maxx' hackles went up and he was barking. When I got home and thought about it.. What if someone felt threatened? What could they do, and get away with??
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, I don't think you missed anything....I don't know why the heck I thought small dogs?? I think it was because of the couple saying the shepherd was biting their ankles?? I don't understand that, why would it be biting ankles...unless it was herding?? I agree, it does appear that the huskies are the dogs, what are the chances of two bystanders having two dogs, hanging around??....also I think they were talking with the police?? I do apologize for assuming it was two little dogs. 

I don't agree that this has any correlation to someone shooting an on-leash dog, on a walk(your fear and others worrying about a "precedence")...I just don't...I do think that the man acted too soon, and it isn't a comfort knowing there are people that will do that...but in the eyes of the law I don't think it's illegal...nor, honestly, do I think it should be....the law specifies "at large" for a reason...it doesn't say "if you feel scared or threatened by any animal anywhere." The GSD was out and had gotten out multiple times before. If he shot a dog on leash walking by, or at a dog park where off leash dog-on-dog-contact is expected?? Well, this would be a totally different discussion.... 

Another thing I am not understanding, witnesses say the guy came running out of his house *after* the dog was already shot and people were yelling....if he was in his garage, watched the dog get out, why wasn't he right behind the dog? I know this doesn't have anything to do with the shooting itself...but if my dog slips out and I am right there, I am chasing behind the dog....makes me wonder who is telling the truth though, or if the guy saw the shepherd get out and didn't bother to follow immediately?? That also lines up with the shepherd being out many times before (the owner being a tad negligent). I wonder if the person would have shot the shepherd if the owner was running up to them...I would guess not, because the person would probably have felt the shepherd owner could call his dog off. It makes me wonder if the gsd owner just expects everyone else to deal with the dog being off leash and "at large." He reminds me of those dog owners that let their dogs run up to everyone, while yelling "it's okay, he loves other dogs." I don't care, I don't want my dog meeting him...my dog may be fear reactive, nip at your dog...and then it's on...

.......that's the problem with eye witnesses and different accounts...no one knows exactly what happened except for the people that were there. I'm very curious to see if charges will be filed and/or if the guy will be cited.


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## Nigel

DaniFani said:


> No, I don't think you missed anything....I don't know why the heck I thought small dogs?? I think it was because of the couple saying the shepherd was biting their ankles?? I don't understand that, why would it be biting ankles...unless it was herding?? I agree, it does appear that the huskies are the dogs, what are the chances of two bystanders having two dogs, hanging around??....also I think they were talking with the police?? I do apologize for assuming it was two little dogs.
> 
> I don't agree that this has any correlation to someone shooting an on-leash dog, on a walk(your fear and others worrying about a "precedence")...I just don't...I do think that the man acted too soon, and it isn't a comfort knowing there are people that will do that...but in the eyes of the law I don't think it's illegal...nor, honestly, do I think it should be....the law specifies "at large" for a reason...it doesn't say "if you feel scared or threatened by any animal anywhere." The GSD was out and had gotten out multiple times before. If he shot a dog on leash walking by, or at a dog park where off leash dog-on-dog-contact is expected?? Well, this would be a totally different discussion....
> 
> Another thing I am not understanding, witnesses say the guy came running out of his house *after* the dog was already shot and people were yelling....if he was in his garage, watched the dog get out, why wasn't he right behind the dog? I know this doesn't have anything to do with the shooting itself...but if my dog slips out and I am right there, I am chasing behind the dog....makes me wonder who is telling the truth though, or if the guy saw the shepherd get out and didn't bother to follow immediately?? That also lines up with the shepherd being out many times before (the owner being a tad negligent). I wonder if the person would have shot the shepherd if the owner was running up to them...I would guess not, because the person would probably have felt the shepherd owner could call his dog off. It makes me wonder if the gsd owner just expects everyone else to deal with the dog being off leash and "at large." He reminds me of those dog owners that let their dogs run up to everyone, while yelling "it's okay, he loves other dogs." I don't care, I don't want my dog meeting him...my dog may be fear reactive, nip at your dog...and then it's on...
> 
> .......that's the problem with eye witnesses and different accounts...no one knows exactly what happened except for the people that were there. I'm very curious to see if charges will be filed and/or if the guy will be cited.


From the limited amount of info this is what I came up with, The guy opened the garage door, the gsd DOES trot out, the owner doesn't think anything about it because nothing negative has happened in the past, he'll call him back in a minute when were ready to go. Had the dog tore off when the door opened or the owner heard yelling prior to the shooting, he probably would have tried to stop his dog-maybe he's the irresponsible, everybody likes my dog type? - this is my guess anyways, hopefully they'll follow up on this story if there's more to it.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Nigel said:


> From the limited amount of info this is what I came up with, The guy opened the garage door, the gsd DOES trot out, the owner doesn't think anything about it because nothing negative has happened in the past, he'll call him back in a minute when were ready to go. Had the dog tore off when the door opened or the owner heard yelling prior to the shooting, he probably would have tried to stop his dog-maybe he's the irresponsible, everybody likes my dog type? - this is my guess anyways, hopefully they'll follow up on this story if there's more to it.


That's what I think too. I think dani is right when she says that when dalia went trotting to the people he probably didn't think to call her back because like dani said, the dog has been seen out before and had "no complaints" I agree that if the guy was yelling and making a fuss then he probably would have been out there or called his dog back after he heard all the commotion. I hope that they do update the story, i would like to know if anything happens 


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## DaniFani

@Lovefor and Nigel....Maybe I'm too mad at the owner? But man does it grind my gears that he didn't go after the dog...for whatever reason....like I said, I have had fear aggressive dogs that were not okay with other dogs....how am I supposed to manage my own dogs when idiot owners let their dogs do whatever they want, furthermore, how are we supposed to hold people accountable for this type of off-leash, no recall/control, dog/dog owner problem. I guess the answer is the fine for being off-leash, but obviously this guy doesn't give two hoots about that. I mean, that's great that YOUR dog (general you, not you two at all) likes other dogs, but if my dog bites out of fear, and your dog reacts, and we have a dog fight on our hands...that is not my fault(and, unfortunately, there are a LOT of fear aggressive dogs out there)....but my dog will pay the price, and so will yours....it just makes me angry...even the nicest dog, if bitten or attacked by a fearful dog, will defend itself. 

This is more a rant about this type of dog owner than this incident. At what point do we say, "ya know, something this tragic is bound to occur, via a car, farmer, etc...(as selzer pointed out)....when you expect others to just 'deal with' your 'friendly' dog." How does someone like this usually learn lessons?? When something tragic finally happens...I am not saying the dog should be shot/killed to teach the owner a lesson...I am more just upset that this is what it takes for some fool to think, "huh, maybe I should care more about containing/training/controlling my dog." 

For what it's worth, when I had my FA dog, if someone's off leash dog came running up and the owner was running behind saying, "Fido, come, come Fido! FIDO! Come! COME!" And then said, "it's okay, he's friendly." I usually would yell back, "yeah, well my dog hates other dogs and will bite him...."Even though I had control of my dog, and would usually be able to just shoo the other dog away, I thought maybe if I said that, the other owner would consider that maybe his current method isn't such a wonderful idea....probably just thought I was crazy for walking a fearful dog...how dare I, right?? But I can hope maybe he'll think twice....I'll usually say the dog isn't okay with contact, even if he could care less (my corgi freaking loves other dogs)....but I don't think I should be expected to have him interact with every dog....:shrug:


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Exactly dani, I mean seriously why should we out walking our own dogs, fearful or friendly have to face other dogs that are not controlled? There has been so many times that I have had to run off loose critters from getting too close. But I guess this is all going to be a rant as well because as long as there are irresponsible pet owners that don't make SURE that their animals are contained properly then this will never end.  it's a sad reality really... If everyone thought like we did where we don't want ANYTHING to happen to our animals because of something we can control then we wouldn't have this issue. But that's a lot to be expected... 

To me, if both dogs aren't contained by leash or in a off leash area ( which most people take their dogs to off leash area if their dogs are friendly and they want them to have interaction with other people and animals, at least I would HOPE so ) then we should be able to enjoy our time out of our house in peace. But then again some people ( myself included before I came to this forum) thought that the best way to socialize your dog was at a dog park and the dog MUST play with other dogs to be happy. Maybe that's what this guy was thinking. That if his dog wants to say hello to these 2 other dogs, then why not? Why call her back because everybody loves a 80 lb gsd trotting to them right? 

And yes I believe that the 2 huskies were the dogs. But there lies another question that we might not ever know... 


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## martemchik

I think many of us GSD owners really don't realize what our dogs look like in full sprint, full concentration, to go and do something. My dog is super friendly, and I see him as that little puppy that I brought home 3 years ago. A few weeks ago at a lure-coursing event a friend of mine took some pictures of him doing his thing. There's one...its truly intimidating and scary. It really made me realize what people see when they look at my dog.










Now...if that's coming at your 10 lb dog...what would you think? Oh and has anyone ever watched an IPO trial? A majority of those dogs wag their tails and are having the time of their life while their biting the sleeve or running at the helper...do you really expect a regular person to read that kind of body language and realize its not truly "friendly"?

I'm pretty good at reading dog body language, but if a GSD is charging at me, I'd think twice. I don't tote a weapon so that's not an option for me, but I'd be worried. I'm usually not very worried as I do have a pretty bad-ass dog on the other end of the leash, and he can read aggression very very well, and the only dogs that have ever come at me have been tiny friendly little neighbor dogs.

It's really not setting any kind of precedent that isn't already set. Truth is...you can pretty much protect yourself in any way you want if you believe you're in danger. A dog...is a dog. It's a piece of property and its not up to the person seeing them charging at them to try and figure out the body language of that dog or the prior history of that dog's temperament in the few seconds they have before the dog gets there. 99.9% of people WILL NOT shoot a dog that comes at them. This was ONE PERSON with a quick trigger. This should be more of a discussion on gun laws/gun culture (and NO ONE wants that).

There are people on this forum that have admitted they would shoot any dog that comes onto their property. There have been people that have suggested to others that they shoot a dog that constantly comes onto their property and pees on a bush. Seriously...all it did was pee on a bush. You'd all be pretty shocked to find out about the wide range of opinions about reactions to the things that dogs do on this forum.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

martemchik said:


> I think many of us GSD owners really don't realize what our dogs look like in full sprint, full concentration, to go and do something. My dog is super friendly, and I see him as that little puppy that I brought home 3 years ago. A few weeks ago at a lure-coursing event a friend of mine took some pictures of him doing his thing. There's one...its truly intimidating and scary. It really made me realize what people see when they look at my dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now...if that's coming at your 10 lb dog...what would you think? Oh and has anyone ever watched an IPO trial? A majority of those dogs wag their tails and are having the time of their life while their biting the sleeve or running at the helper...do you really expect a regular person to read that kind of body language and realize its not truly "friendly"?
> 
> I'm pretty good at reading dog body language, but if a GSD is charging at me, I'd think twice. I don't tote a weapon so that's not an option for me, but I'd be worried. I'm usually not very worried as I do have a pretty bad-ass dog on the other end of the leash, and he can read aggression very very well, and the only dogs that have ever come at me have been tiny friendly little neighbor dogs.
> 
> It's really not setting any kind of precedent that isn't already set. Truth is...you can pretty much protect yourself in any way you want if you believe you're in danger. A dog...is a dog. It's a piece of property and its not up to the person seeing them charging at them to try and figure out the body language of that dog or the prior history of that dog's temperament in the few seconds they have before the dog gets there. 99.9% of people WILL NOT shoot a dog that comes at them. This was ONE PERSON with a quick trigger. This should be more of a discussion on gun laws/gun culture (and NO ONE wants that).
> 
> There are people on this forum that have admitted they would shoot any dog that comes onto their property. There have been people that have suggested to others that they shoot a dog that constantly comes onto their property and pees on a bush. Seriously...all it did was pee on a bush. You'd all be pretty shocked to find out about the wide range of opinions about reactions to the things that dogs do on this forum.


Your dog is beautiful!!! But yes I see your point... If that dog was running at me i would be worried too.  But that is what most people get the breed for right? To look intimidating and be a good protection/guard dog... Like selzer pointed out, because of the resources people have to see what this breed of dog does or could do, i would think that most are going to find them frightening. 

And no, I agree with you that it shouldn't be up to someone just out walking their dog to have to determine if the 80 lb gsd or the 10 pound min pin is mean or friendly. But like dani said, even a friendly off leash dog could get bit by a FA and then there would be a dog fight. I'm pretty good at body language myself too but I could improve though. 


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## loveformygermanshepherd

And here is another heart breaking event due to the owners wrong doing... Shot this dog in front of kids  and the dog was a mother of 6 puppies. Outraged that these people let their dog go outside freely without a leash even though they know the leash law. 

And why are their witnesses saying she wasn't aggressive and some we're saying she was. If anything I would think she just let some warning barks out to alert her people. Poor puppies have no mother now  stupid owners... The kids knew she was nice but the officers didn't. It all could have been avoided with her being on a leash... 


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## loveformygermanshepherd

Sorry... Here's the link

http://ktvb.mlnwap.com/article.html#!/9047/c3fce1445f7c4ad77cd39d25c7cce932


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## selzer

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> Sorry... Here's the link
> 
> http://ktvb.mlnwap.com/article.html#!/9047/c3fce1445f7c4ad77cd39d25c7cce932
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Irresponsible people do unintelligent, irresponsible things, and their dogs suffer. She just lets her dog out to run around, get knocked up, bark at the cops, get shot. So now they have six 2-week old puppies that they need to figure out how to raise. 

Jerks. And they're breeding (they have a 2-year-old son).


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## loveformygermanshepherd

selzer said:


> Irresponsible people do unintelligent, irresponsible things, and their dogs suffer. She just lets her dog out to run around, get knocked up, bark at the cops, get shot. So now they have six 2-week old puppies that they need to figure out how to raise.
> 
> Jerks. And they're breeding (they have a 2-year-old son).


It just shocks the crap out of me... Their also in a apartment complex. I have been watching Facebook on this story too and there are so many mad people at the cops, saying that he could have used non lethal ways because he has them on his belt and I agree with that somewhat, and that the child was RIGHT there! But like I keep saying.. The mom shouldn't have been bred to begin with but also the owners should not have let her just walk around unleashed. Just keeping your dog on a leash would have probably saved this poor dog  my heart does go out to her puppies and that little boy  


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## selzer

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> It just shocks the crap out of me... Their also in a apartment complex. I have been watching Facebook on this story too and there are so many mad people at the cops, saying that he could have used non lethal ways because he has them on his belt and I agree with that somewhat, and that the child was RIGHT there! But like I keep saying.. The mom shouldn't have been bred to begin with but also the owners should not have let her just walk around unleashed. Just keeping your dog on a leash would have probably saved this poor dog  my heart does go out to her puppies and that little boy
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



The kid wasn't hit. If some yayhoo was shooting, the cops would have had to shoot back, kids running around our not. The owner of the dog is a total zero. No sympathy for her at all. The dog looks like a pit mix, and the cops tend to kill those. If it is a pit mix, then even less sympathy because people with those dogs can't afford to just let them run around at large. Idiot owner.


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## loveformygermanshepherd

selzer said:


> The kid wasn't hit. If some yayhoo was shooting, the cops would have had to shoot back, kids running around our not. The owner of the dog is a total zero. No sympathy for her at all. The dog looks like a pit mix, and the cops tend to kill those. If it is a pit mix, then even less sympathy because people with those dogs can't afford to just let them run around at large. Idiot owner.


Yes they do like to target them. And I agree, if you have a pitbull, or any of the bully breeds people need to keep a more watchful eye on them 


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## Sarah~

loveformygermanshepherd said:


> Yes they do like to target them. And I agree, if you have a pitbull, or any of the bully breeds people need to keep a more watchful eye on them
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:thumbup:


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## Mr. D

selzer said:


> The kid wasn't hit. If some yayhoo was shooting, the cops would have had to shoot back, kids running around our not. The owner of the dog is a total zero. No sympathy for her at all. The dog looks like a pit mix, and the cops tend to kill those. If it is a pit mix, then even less sympathy because people with those dogs can't afford to just let them run around at large. Idiot owner.


We had better training than that. Always know what's behind or in front of your intended target. Police shooting with innocents running around is irresponsible. Clear the area, then kick a**.


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## Sri

martemchik said:


> I think many of us GSD owners really don't realize what our dogs look like in full sprint, full concentration, to go and do something. My dog is super friendly, and I see him as that little puppy that I brought home 3 years ago. A few weeks ago at a lure-coursing event a friend of mine took some pictures of him doing his thing. There's one...its truly intimidating and scary. It really made me realize what people see when they look at my dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now...if that's coming at your 10 lb dog...what would you think? Oh and has anyone ever watched an IPO trial? A majority of those dogs wag their tails and are having the time of their life while their biting the sleeve or running at the helper...do you really expect a regular person to read that kind of body language and realize its not truly "friendly"?
> 
> I'm pretty good at reading dog body language, but if a GSD is charging at me, I'd think twice. I don't tote a weapon so that's not an option for me, but I'd be worried. I'm usually not very worried as I do have a pretty bad-ass dog on the other end of the leash, and he can read aggression very very well, and the only dogs that have ever come at me have been tiny friendly little neighbor dogs.
> 
> It's really not setting any kind of precedent that isn't already set. Truth is...you can pretty much protect yourself in any way you want if you believe you're in danger. A dog...is a dog. It's a piece of property and its not up to the person seeing them charging at them to try and figure out the body language of that dog or the prior history of that dog's temperament in the few seconds they have before the dog gets there. 99.9% of people WILL NOT shoot a dog that comes at them. This was ONE PERSON with a quick trigger. *This should be more of a discussion on gun laws/gun culture (and NO ONE wants that*).
> 
> There are people on this forum that have admitted they would shoot any dog that comes onto their property. There have been people that have suggested to others that they shoot a dog that constantly comes onto their property and pees on a bush. Seriously...all it did was pee on a bush. You'd all be pretty shocked to find out about the wide range of opinions about reactions to the things that dogs do on this forum.



:thumbup::thumbup:

And what a handsome dog!!

Do people usually go for walks with their dog carrying a gun?? Isn't that what is outrageous? And no, not everyone gets this breed because of their intimidating looks or protection value.


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## Mr. D

Sri said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> And what a handsome dog!!
> 
> Do people usually go for walks with their dog carrying a gun?? Isn't that what is outrageous? And no, not everyone gets this breed because of their intimidating looks or protection value.


Why is concealed carry outrageous? Not make this borderline political, but the opinion was already brought up there needs to be conversation on gun laws/culture.


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