# E Collar Dilemma



## Wayofthewolf (Nov 9, 2009)

I just read a few articles by Lou Castle- some of the best information I've seen yet on E Collars. I am a strictly positive trainer, but I've come up on a problem with my new rescue that I haven't been able to fix- he chases and kills prey animals. (he's frighteningly successful) 

I read Lou Castle's article on "crittering"- the need to start at low-level prey drive in the dog by controling the environment and the prey animal. Here's one problem right off the bat: where do I get controlled prey animals lol? We have cats but I don't think I would use them for bait. What if he got away from me? They'd be goners, for sure. I'm pretty strong, but so is he. I guess the theory would be, I wouldn't let him get excited enough for that to be a problem. 

I wonder if it is possible to do this excersise with false bait? I am thinking of a pelt on a rope operated by someone outside his field of vision for instance. I don't know if this would set him off but if he got the scent, particularly of ****, I bet it would work. Thoughts, anyone?

He works his nose like a hound. My other GSD doesn't scent the ground like he does. Once the nose is down and the tail is up, I don't exist anymore.

bear in mind I don't even have an e-collar yet, I am only exploring the theory to see if it is an avenue worth pursuing.

Thanks for everyone's help I really appreciate it! I would consult a trainer locally who uses these collars but everyone around here seems to be a quack!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I believe Lou has a yahoo group dedicated to the use of e-collars.. might be worth joining...


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Contact Lou directly via email. He will respond back. You may even be able to talk to him via phone.


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## Wayofthewolf (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks I will try him.

J


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree, contact him directly. The e-collar is ideal in your situation.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I talked to him by phone. He will return your phone call - maybe not right away but he will and if you miss him, he will still call back. I also suggest you joining his forum as well.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Glad I found this post as this is *exactly* what our rescued boy does. I have had him get out of our e-fence & also with a e-collar, a SD400 !! Once lost in the woods, the e-collar deal doesn't work the greatest due to the trees & was told e-collars work best in wide open spaces ! Not good for us b/c live in a wooded lot.

I was told to blast him at a high level many spots around our yard & praise him when he comes right back to you. Do this 2 x's a day for a week & not to let them loose at all in the yard during this period. This is done with e-collar on & on a lead with a slight pop when to get him to come to you after the shock.

Was told e-collars that you control are more powerful that a e-fence so this should solve the problem of going through the fence. Haven't started training yet.

I just know he is fine in the yard TILL that deer, etc is there to go chase & NOTHING is stopping him. I have tried the e-collar on low levels, he yelps at times, but I guess I should really get him.

Please let me kknow what advice Lou gives ya.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: WayofthewolfI just read a few articles by Lou Castle- some of the best information I've seen yet on E Collars.


Thanks for the kind words. 



> Originally Posted By: WayofthewolfI read Lou Castle's article on "crittering"- the need to start at low-level prey drive in the dog by controling the environment and the prey animal. Here's one problem right off the bat: where do I get controlled prey animals lol? We have cats but I don't think I would use them for bait. What if he got away from me? They'd be goners, for sure. I'm pretty strong, but so is he. I guess the theory would be, I wouldn't let him get excited enough for that to be a problem.


If you have cats that the dog will chase, that's the best place to start. To ensure that he does not get away from you, use a quality, properly fitted collar and a quality leash of sufficient strength that he can't break it. You should not be able to pull the collar over the dog's head no matter how hard you pull. Make sure that your hand is through the loop of the leash. You might think about using a pinch collar – the dog won't be as tempted to pull against that. 

Your _"cat wrangler"_ can be near a car so that if your dog breaks loose at the start of the work, he can just pick up the cat and get into it. Later in the work, when you approach cllsoer, the dog will have the idea and won't be as interested in the cat so the chance of it happening drops off considerably. 

If you're really worried that you can't control the dog put the cat into a wire crate. Some dogs aren't interested in a caged cat but yours might be. The crate will protect the cat should the dog manage to break loose. But if you use the protocol the dog is started at a great distance from the cat and few dogs will pull hard enough to pull the leash from your hand. They're just not as interested in the cat at a distance from them, as they are when up close. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf I wonder if it is possible to do this excersise with false bait?


If you're that frightened that your dog might hurt your cats, give it a try. It might work. Even if it does not, it will give you some experience in working the protocol before introducing the cat to it. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf He works his nose like a hound. My other GSD doesn't scent the ground like he does. Once the nose is down and the tail is up, I don't exist anymore.


I'd suggest that you not allow such a condition to exist. It's extremely dangerous in today's world that your dog totally block you out. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf Thanks for everyone's help I really appreciate it! I would consult a trainer locally who uses these collars but everyone around here seems to be a quack!


Even if they're not, few trainers are familiar with my method of stopping cat (and other animal) chasing. Mostly they do it the way that this used to be done, blasting the dog, at extremely high levels of stim when the chase started. This works with most dogs but can cause other problems. You may find that your dog powers through the pain if it's done this way, and that it has no effect at all, except to make the problem harder to solve.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgI believe Lou has a yahoo group dedicated to the use of e-collars.. might be worth joining...


The Yahoo group has been replaced by a forum, similar in design to this one. Send a PM if you want the link. Not sure if this forum allows links to other forums to be posted.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I'm very gratified that I've had the opportunity to help some of you via phone.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSsGlad I found this post as this is *exactly* what our rescued boy does. I have had him get out of our e-fence & also with a e-collar, a SD400 !! Once lost in the woods, the e-collar deal doesn't work the greatest due to the trees & was told e-collars work best in wide open spaces ! Not good for us b/c live in a wooded lot.


The problem may be the Ecollar you've purchased. I'm not a fan of that brand for several reasons. One of them is that they're failry low power. For you I'd suggest one that has a 3/4 mile range. That extra power will help punch through the woods when your dog is far away from you. I prefer the Dogtra brand but Tri–Tronics and Unleashed Technology are also good. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs I was told to blast him at a high level many spots around our yard & praise him when he comes right back to you. Do this 2 x's a day for a week & not to let them loose at all in the yard during this period. This is done with e-collar on & on a lead with a slight pop when to get him to come to you after the shock.


I'd not suggest doing this. First of all, high levels of stim hurt! I don't see any reason to cause pain to a dog just to get him to learn to recall. In the worst case, you can get a dog that won't leave your side _"because it HURTS out there."_ Instead I'd suggest that you use low levels of stim combined with THIS METHOD


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Lou,
Thank you much for the link.







We have a very hard headed boy here. With the e-fence I left the darn flags in the yard for 1 yr for him & with our dogs I raised as pups only needed the flags 1 month & they do not test the e-fence at all. I trained & worked with him the same way on the e-fence, but animals mean more to him. He has never killed or got anything, yet !

I was told in order not to have a dead dog to do what I stated in my post above. Shadow is a whole different dog when there's something he wants & this e-fence isn't holding him in that case. I need a major back up. There's times he darts & has both the fence & e-collar on ! This is before I can catch him. If he spots & I zap him saying *leave it*, he will come back to me. It's when I'm not in veiw & he sees or hears the deer, he's off. I'm lost in what to do, but sure hate to keep him in the kennel all the time or inside. Thinking what the trainer said, e-collar is more powerful than fence so, make him respect the yard more by using the e-collar & zap him hard. I know this will make him glued to my side & not want to move about. He did this with fence training & when he did get zapped, you thought he got hit, boy he yelped & I thought, he will never test this fence, wrong.

Sorry to go on here, but would love to have a great *leave it* off of prey & a recall.

I will continue to read your link, didn't get to read it all.

BTW, We got the SD400 b/c got used so, couldn't pass up. I bought another just collar off of eBay so, I have a 2 collar system on 1 remote. Like, but don't like.

I have had them work & come in handy at times, but have had my share of problems needing to send collars back & now waiting for a new remote. I did upgrade from the stock SD400 remote to the one with a screw on antenna & believe with 1/2 mile range. Hope this solves my problems as sometimes (even in yard) when I hit button they get zapped & sometimes not. 

Having 2 dogs on 1 collar is nice, but you don't have the option of using nick/cont & don't have a tone button.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> I was told in order not to have a dead dog to do what I stated in my post above. Shadow is a whole different dog when there's something he wants & this e-fence isn't holding him in that case. I need a major back up.


Many dogs with high prey drive will simply run through the Efence if they see something they want to chase outside it. If you have a quality Efence and a quality Ecollar they have about the same level of power at the highest level. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs There's times he darts & has both the fence & e-collar on ! This is before I can catch him. If he spots & I zap him saying *leave it*, he will come back to me.


You've discovered one of the drawbacks to the Efence. Once the dog is in prey drive his sensitivity to even high levels of discomfort, drops off. The tool does not give good results on every dog. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs It's when I'm not in veiw & he sees or hears the deer, he's off.


That's when the crittering protocol will work. You will not always be present to stop him. He needs to do this by himself. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs BTW, We got the SD400 b/c got used so, couldn't pass up. I bought another just collar off of eBay so, I have a 2 collar system on 1 remote. Like, but don't like.


There are several issues with it, not the least of which is the limited number of levels of stim. It may not give good results with my protocol. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs I have had them work & come in handy at times, but have had my share of problems needing to send collars back & now waiting for a new remote.


Ecollars are very much a matter of _"you get what you pay for."_ 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs Having 2 dogs on 1 collar is nice, but you don't have the option of using nick/cont & don't have a tone button.


Another issue with this unit. If you get a quality unit (one of the brands that I mentioned) you don't lose any features just because you add another collar.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

How do you handle a dog that listens while the collar is on and doesn't when it is off? My 18 month old knows the collar means no cats,I take the collar off and she chases and aggravates them.I don't have any worries of her hurting the cats, just chasing them out of reach and across the road.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks again Lou.









Top 3 you like ? Anyway to get good use out of what I have ? When they are working (hope the remote solves the issue, waiting for new) I get good results. I just need to have him stay on our property. When he escapes it's wooded, but will come out to some roads so, I have to stop this. 

Just not sure how I'm going to go 100% about this.









AllieG,
I agree, they seem to know when the e-collar is on & when off.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGHow do you handle a dog that listens while the collar is on and doesn't when it is off? My 18 month old knows the collar means no cats,I take the collar off and she chases and aggravates them.I don't have any worries of her hurting the cats, just chasing them out of reach and across the road.


This occurs because of a flaw in the training. I've written an article as to why it occurs, how to prevent and how to fix it; that you can read HERE. It's Myth #20.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> Top 3 you like ?


I prefer the Dogtra brand. One major reason is that they offer 127 levels of stim. With fewer levels you may find that your dog does not feel level 5 but level 6 is too high for him. For example, on an Ecollar that has only 10 levels each new level is going to be about 10% more power than the level before it. With the Dogtras that have 127 levels, each level is only 0.8% of a jump in power. In that line my favorite collar is the 2300NCP. Then I like the 1900NCP and then the 280NCP. 

They're about to come out with a new line, early next year that has an interesting feature. They will have a vibration feature IN THE TRANSMITTER that will give turn on when you press a button. That will give you feedback that you are, in fact, giving the dog a stim. It's intended mainly for hunters who are wearing gloves and may not be sure that they are pressing the button. But I see application for pet owners too. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs Anyway to get good use out of what I have ? When they are working (hope the remote solves the issue, waiting for new) I get good results. I just need to have him stay on our property. When he escapes it's wooded, but will come out to some roads so, I have to stop this.
> 
> Just not sure how I'm going to go 100% about this.


You may be able to use your collar with my protocols. There's no way to know until you try. You may find that one of the levels is just right for your dog. But it makes it difficult to adjust up (or down) _"just a little"_ if the distractions level increases (or decreases) just a little.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Why do they have to be so darn smart and us so stupid? 

It makes sense to keep it on and hide so to speak the remote.

How long should an average dog take to learn from the collar?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

I have used a bark collar in the past, not as much now & the dogs knows when on & not. It's put on when the barking is happening & not used all the time so, this is a hard one not to know when on & when not IMO unless left on all the time, which I wouldn't do that.

Ok, will try the recall training. How often & long to work on this & at anytime should the dog be allowed loose in the yard while trying to train this ? What if you do get a velco dog when your outside, but you want them to be able to be out in the yard without you out there ?

Shadow has a great recall, as I will be outside & call them while walking around the yard & all 3 will come. I treat & praise ! 

It's the recall off of distractions that isn't working with them & Shadow is the only 1 to test the e-fence. 

This area is hard for me to train b/c we don't own cats & mr deer comes in & out of yard when he wants, can be in morning afternoon, etc ! So how should I train crittering ?

I just feel lost & like I'm never going to be able to have Shad run free in the yard like the other dogs & NOT test the e-fence while I'm inside (which I do watch out all windows). I'm outside babysitting, it's better, but I would love away from that, the trust that he will NEVER get out of our yard.

Thanks for your time Lou...........


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> How long should an average dog take to learn from the collar?


It depends on the dog, how good you are and how often you work. I can teach a recall in 2-3 sessions with the average dog. Proofing it in various situations really depends on how many place I want to get to and how many distractions I want to throw at him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> Ok, will try the recall training. How often & long to work on this & at anytime should the dog be allowed loose in the yard while trying to train this ?


Basic rule of dog training is to not allow the dog to make any mistakes during the work. That is, in between sessions don't allow him the opportunity to screw up. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs What if you do get a velco dog when your outside, but you want them to be able to be out in the yard without you out there ?


Not sure I understand. If you're not there, he can't be Velcro Dog. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs This area is hard for me to train b/c we don't own cats & mr deer comes in & out of yard when he wants, can be in morning afternoon, etc ! So how should I train crittering ?


I recommend that you borrow a cat from a friend. The cat is in no danger and in the long run you may be saving its life and/or the lives of other cats. Many dogs generalize from the cat to other animals in the same size range. You can substitute a small horse for the deer. A few dogs need the actual animal they chase to be used, but those are rare. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs I just feel lost & like I'm never going to be able to have Shad run free in the yard like the other dogs & NOT test the e-fence while I'm inside (which I do watch out all windows). I'm outside babysitting, it's better, but I would love away from that, the trust that he will NEVER get out of our yard.


The ONLY way to ensure that is to either build a hard wall that the dog can't get over or under or get rid of the dog. Everything else works towards that end, but in the end, he's still a dog that likes to chase. You can ALMOST eliminate it, but like anything else in dogs, there are no guarantees. 

I'd suggest that you train the recall and the sit with the Ecollar with my method as well as do the crittering protocol. When you do this the dog comes to understand that it's his actions that trigger a stim and it's his response to commands that makes it stop. THEN you can use it as a "leave it." If you try using it for that before the other work is done the dog may make the wrong association and then you may have a problem. 

I'd also suggest that after you teach the recall that you teach the dog that the vibration (I think your collar uses a tone) means the same thing as a recall command. If you're indoors and see him break thorugh the fence, you can hit the tone button and it will call him. But you have to teach this, just as you did with the voice command, it does not happen naturally.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks again.









I meant, velco dog at your side or in eye sight doing 100% fine, but when you leave, that's when the issue is. That's the issue I want fixed. The dog can be out in the yard with the other 2 dogs alone w/o me right there.

I feel it's just always going to be if I'm not out in the yard with him, then he needs to be kenneled or come inside. Will not give him up, but don't want anything to happen to him IF he can't keep his butt in the yard. I want him to be able to run, play, etc for an 1 hr or so with the others on the property, but having the e-fence contain him. Just can't do that unless I'm out there with him. He has gotten out with me out there with him though, but there was a good amount of distance (I was off doing something, he watching for anything & everything to move) between us.

Does a e-collar lose it's power when used with an e-fence collar ?

Does a e-collar lose it's power when multiple dogs are on it ? 
Have the SD400 remote & upgraded (waiting for them to send) to a SD800 with longer range, but both have where you can add up to 3 dogs & I have only 2 on it. You lose the nick & tone button in this case.

What is going on with this system is.............

Sometimes when you hit the button for a collar it works & it don't. SD had me do a test where you put the remote behind your back & hand over the antenna. Did this & green light on both collars stayed & didn't turn red. I hoping the new remote will solve my sometimes they worked, sometimes they don't issue !!

Would it be wise since I can't afford another brand & have this one to try & get the SD 1800 (I think) remote that allows you to have more dogs on it, but still have your tone button ? Not sure the $ even to do this & if we can.

I only invested in e-collars to use for bad habits. I put the collar on my other male & female 2 times & that stopped them from chasing 4-wheelers. I never had to put back on them again. Shadow is just a hard head !









~Thanks~


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## Wayofthewolf (Nov 9, 2009)

Lou- 

I was so busy reading your E Collar forum that I missed all of your posts here, and I see that you gave me some really great feedback a few days ago. Sorry I didn't respond, I just didn't see it, and thanks again.

If you or anybody has thoughts on this I'd love to hear: in every effort I've made to eliminate an unwanted behavior I found the need to tell the dog what I DID want them to do instead and then reinforce that in every way I could think of. 

Once I begin training and I let my prey-chasing rescue know that crittering is not an acceptable passtime any more wouldn't it be so much easier for him if I could then offer him a constructive outlet for that prey drive? Question 2: won't it be hard to really put a stop to the crittering if I DON'T give him some kind of alternative? My female is as hot on toys as he is on game, so she's easy. I play hide-and-seek with her in fields where she has to search out her toy, etc.

It has been hard for me to really get the new guy interested in toys, partly because he just doesn't care that much and partly because my female's a toy bitch and she always steals things from him and tries not to let him play (although I do take him out alone b/c of this) Are toys and toy games a sufficient replacement for the thrill of the chase?

This question specifically for Lou- On another post I mentioned how once he puts his nose down I don't exist anymore. what if I was able to teach him to track in partnership with me? I have no idea how to teach tracking but I would be willing to learn if it was a constructive way to put this dog's energy to good use. 

Just brainstorming, would love input, thanks!


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Wayofthewolf,

So sorry & didn't mean to highjack your thread. I'm just so happy you posted b/c that's why I came to this section, I was going to ask the same thing & why start another thread.

I'm like you, at whits end b/c the prey drive is crazy & they do zone you out once something is spoted !

Our other 2 GSDs will chase, but nothing like our rescue.

Best of luck to ya & I guess we will read & learn.


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## Wayofthewolf (Nov 9, 2009)

No prob- I don't consider it hijacked anyway. I appreciate hearing everyone else's problems and experience too...


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I'm not a big fan of e-collars but, just like every other training TOOL, they have their place.

If I was in a position where I needed to use one I would look to Lou for help.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs
> I meant, velco dog at your side or in eye sight doing 100% fine, but when you leave, that's when the issue is. That's the issue I want fixed. The dog can be out in the yard with the other 2 dogs alone w/o me right there.


I think that your best bet is to do the crittering protocol. Usually this stops the dog from chasing game and may keep him in the yard. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs I feel it's just always going to be if I'm not out in the yard with him, then he needs to be kenneled or come inside.


You may be right. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs Does a e-collar lose it's power when used with an e-fence collar ?


No. It has nothing to do with the Efence. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs Does a e-collar lose it's power when multiple dogs are on it ?


Ditto. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs What is going on with this system is.............
> 
> Sometimes when you hit the button for a collar it works & it don't. SD had me do a test where you put the remote behind your back & hand over the antenna. Did this & green light on both collars stayed & didn't turn red. I hoping the new remote will solve my sometimes they worked, sometimes they don't issue !!


You may find that this issue continues, especially as the collar ages. They work well when new but after some use, especially if they get banged around a bit, they often become unreliable. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs Would it be wise since I can't afford another brand & have this one to try & get the SD 1800 (I think) remote that allows you to have more dogs on it, but still have your tone button ? Not sure the $ even to do this & if we can.


I think your best bet is to invest in a better quality unit. Then you only have to buy it once. 



> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSs I only invested in e-collars to use for bad habits.


Ecollars were originally invented to stop hunting dogs from chasing undesired game. They worked well for that issue but that was with very highly driven dogs and in limited situations. Using the Ecollar only for only stopping bad habits by punishing the dog for doing them is very limiting.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf
> If you or anybody has thoughts on this I'd love to hear: in every effort I've made to eliminate an unwanted behavior I found the need to tell the dog what I DID want them to do instead and then reinforce that in every way I could think of.


My recommendation is to do both. Learning theory tells us to reinforce what you want repeated and punish what you don't want repeated. Using only one side gives incomplete communication. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf Once I begin training and I let my prey-chasing rescue know that crittering is not an acceptable passtime any more wouldn't it be so much easier for him if I could then offer him a constructive outlet for that prey drive?


As long as it does not involve the animals that he used to want to chase. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf Question 2: won't it be hard to really put a stop to the crittering if I DON'T give him some kind of alternative?


Usually it's not but it depends on the dog. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf Are toys and toy games a sufficient replacement for the thrill of the chase?


For most dogs they are. 



> Originally Posted By: Wayofthewolf This question specifically for Lou- On another post I mentioned how once he puts his nose down I don't exist anymore. what if I was able to teach him to track in partnership with me? I have no idea how to teach tracking but I would be willing to learn if it was a constructive way to put this dog's energy to good use.


Right now he's tracking what interests him. It's probably the same animals that he likes to chase. If you can channel him into tracking something else (that might be hard since he's been doing it for so long) it will provide him with a job. You might have to do an advanced form of crittering called _"scent in a bottle."_ It's described in my article on this.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Lou,

Read over your recall training & started it tonight. I need to do slightly different tomorrow as I didn't do 100% right.

They kind of know *here*, but putting a stim to it is different (I have clicker trained this). I went to putting a stim to it to get it down 100% + needing it for the prey drive dog. I would like to train all 3 GSDs this *here* so, they come to me asap !

Anyway, another question is, when do you use the nick or tone button ? I read you say to use cont. most of the time. Just not sure how to train the nick/tone if wanting to use ? 

SD sent me a SD1800 remote with a 3/4 mile range & also it allows me to have 2 dogs on it with them both having the cont., nick, tone button now. Also upgraded the collar to a SD 400S (stub. dog) for 1 collar. I didn't have the extra money to buy a Dogtra so, making this do.

I didn't get off level 1 for either dog tonight. No yelp, but a slight jump. You don't want it too high, correct ?

I know the recall is most important to teach b/c want to call them off of anything (if possible).

They know other commands w/o the use of an e-collar, not sure I should stim now giving them commands or only for the recall for bad habits ? 

Thanks for any other advice. Now that I have a much better remote, would like to train right.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I just bought the 400S,I to can't afford the Dogtra.I have to use the continuous on the one or two or she doesn't notice it.I think I would have to do the 3 for the nick to work.Does it matter what you use as long as they notice it? I would rather use less to get a result.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

AllieG,

My feeling is that you probably don't want alot of pain/ouch so, I would say start lower & see what happens & then move up. That's why I just asked to see IF you want a big time ouch or just a slight jump. I sure didn't even get off level 1 for both.

One thing I must say is, Sport Dog is a wonderful company to work with & they are sure there to help you & if it's not right, they make it right.









Lou,
Also wonder about training the *here* inside, say a garage area ? Was afraid if done always outside, they might not get 100%. 

I know tonight when I tried on my male I normally never use this kind of collar on, he was like..... oh crap & started to go foward instead. I was afraid of confusing him with the e-fence, we sure wasn't anywhere near the fence boundary.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Bump...... Lou, posted on 11/24 7:18 pm & hoping you will read, didn't want to start a new post. Just had a few more questions, sorry.


Thanks


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

http://www.loucastle.com/

LuvourGSs, I'd just go to his site directly and use the email info provided there to contact him.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeehttp://www.loucastle.com/
> 
> LuvourGSs, I'd just go to his site directly and use the email info provided there to contact him.


K, thanks !


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