# How much different is it raising a Dutch Shepherd from a WL GSD?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

From those of you that had both, is there a big difference between raising them? I spoke to DutchKarin about her dutch, she gave me some good thoughts and advice on the DS. But I wouldnt mind hearing from the rest of you who've had both.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

It's getting closer and I would love some info from experienced owners. I posted this thread months back and maybe it got lost in the mix.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

PM dutchkaren


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> PM dutchkaren


lol he just said he spoke to that person :|


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

They are comparable to the Mailinois. More intense than any working line GSD. If you want a solid working dog to work all day, go for it. That's how I know them.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Pan_GSD said:


> lol he just said he spoke to that person :|


Lol, oops.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I still don't understand why you are choosing a dutchie over a nice GSD? 

Anyone can certainly choose any dog they want, but there are plenty of more intimidating-looking GSDs that would fit the bill of "PPD" but not have some of the quirks of the Dutchies or malinois. And I am a malinois person all the way, but I've seen many homes not work out for these breeds. And then the dog pays. Often with his life.

It's a life choice, not just a dog, and you need to figure out the dog, deal with the dog. This might help- read this article on living with a "championship" malinois...Michaela Kuncová about Jaguar de Alphaville Bohemia - ProfiDOG

Quote (on Jaguar a titled stud dog): 
"The Jaguar’s dominance manifests itself mainly at home. He guards everything from his kennel to toys. I have tried to sort this out as soon as possible, but we got into the situation where things were getting worse and worse. Eventually, I let it go and that is what helped. I started to ignore such tense situations and converted them into the game. The more I tried to sort this problem out and direct him, the worse it got."

This type of scenario, I've seen it, and it's unique to each dog but with malinois, the more you "fight" or create conflict, the more they'll step it up. You need to figure out how to be clear and fair without fighting with the dog. It's not something easy to explain to someone who has never seen it. I'm not one of those people who thinks only top-dog-trainers should get a malinois, but it takes a lot of dedication and just a prong, that's not going to cut it as far as training goes.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> I still don't understand why you are choosing a dutchie over a nice GSD?
> 
> Anyone can certainly choose any dog they want, but there are plenty of more intimidating-looking GSDs that would fit the bill of "PPD" but not have some of the quirks of the Dutchies or malinois. And I am a malinois person all the way, but I've seen many homes not work out for these breeds. And then the dog pays. Often with his life.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the advice. I trust the breeder to set me up with the right pup. I still might get a GSD instead because that is all I know but I'm 95% set on ds/mal. Obviously it's more dedication than just a prong collar, I only advised some members on getting it because they seemed to have no control over a young dog during walks and such. I have been to IPO meets and met some of these dogs and was very impressed with them. 
Also I want a challenge. And even some of the best GSD breeders that I know who test their dogs for everything had them die at 6-8 years old. I don't mean to offend anyone but deep down I feel that the GSD has been mostly ruined by bad breeding. The dutch/mal, in my opinion is still one of those "untouched" breeds. Again, this is just my opinion but it's how I feel and by no means am I saying one is better over the other.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I appreciate the advice. I trust the breeder to set me up with the right pup. I still might get a GSD instead because that is all I know but I'm 95% set on ds/mal. Obviously it's more dedication than just a prong collar,* I only advised some members on getting it because they seemed to have no control over a young dog during walks and such.* I have been to IPO meets and met some of these dogs and was very impressed with them.
> Also I want a challenge. And even some of the best GSD breeders that I know who test their dogs for everything had them die at 6-8 years old. I don't mean to offend anyone but deep down I feel that the GSD has been mostly ruined by bad breeding. The dutch/mal, in my opinion is still one of those "untouched" breeds. Again, this is just my opinion but it's how I feel and by no means am I saying one is better over the other.


IMO, the problem is that those people need help teaching their dogs to loose leash walk which is rather simple and easy using a variety of techniques. A prong, for them, is only a management tool. If they successfully manage the dog with a prong, they will never train it to loose leash walk. That is very unfair to the dog especially when many people fail to remove the prong collar after walking.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Julian, I hear you, and the physicality and longevity of the malinois is part of what drew me to the breed. 

But they are a project dog, for sure, so be ready!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> IMO, the problem is that those people need help teaching their dogs to loose leash walk which is rather simple and easy using a variety of techniques. A prong, for them, is only a management tool. If they successfully manage the dog with a prong, they will never train it to loose leash walk. That is very unfair to the dog especially when many people fail to remove the prong collar after walking.


I completely agree, I don't even suggest touching a prong until AT LEAST 6 months of age and that is only for serious problem pups (the earliest I ever used one was when the pup was 8 months old). But some owners here are small in stature with 70lb puppies dragging them around a crowded city so you have to see their side of it as well.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I completely agree, I don't even suggest touching a prong until AT LEAST 6 months of age and that is only for serious problem pups (the earliest I ever used one was when the pup was 8 months old). But some owners here are small in stature with 70lb puppies dragging them around a crowded city so you have to see their side of it as well.


I am small in stature and my largest dog is @ 95#s. Sometimes I take two or three of my dogs with me. In the past I have owned Great Danes, a Rott, a Wolfhound and other large breeds. It is not about size but training.

Training loose leash walking is easy. Taking a prong on and off is off is frequently what is a challenge for many people.

IMO, most leash pulling is a trained behavior. If somebody spent 6 months training their dog to pull, they can take a couple of weeks to train it not to pull and be better off for it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I completely agree, I don't even suggest touching a prong until AT LEAST 6 months of age and that is only for serious problem pups (the earliest I ever used one was when the pup was 8 months old). But some owners here are small in stature with 70lb puppies dragging them around a crowded city so you have to see their side of it as well.


That says more about those dogs owners than it does the tools. 

A (Skilled) owner could use a Prong Collar on a puppy. You don't correct puppies if they get that ... no big deal. But ... "most" owners you know ... so yeah best advice is "don't." 

But 70 lbs .... if (walking the dog properly) were merely about the size of the dog??? Then all those "Bichons, Shih Tzu's, etc" and such would dld not be straining at the end of flexi leashes. It's not about a given tool. The problems often start at the other end of the leash.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am small in stature and my largest dog is @ 95#s. Sometimes I take two or three of my dogs with me. In the past I have owned Great Danes, a Rott, a Wolfhound and other large breeds. It is not about size but training.
> 
> Training loose leash walking is easy. Taking a prong on and off is off is frequently what is a challenge for many people.
> 
> IMO, most leash pulling is a trained behavior. If somebody spent 6 months training their dog to pull, they can take a couple of weeks to train it not to pull and be better off for it.





Chip18 said:


> That says more about those dogs owners than it does the tools.
> 
> A (Skilled) owner could use a Prong Collar on a puppy. You don't correct puppies if they get that ... no big deal. But ... "most" owners you know ... so yeah best advice is "don't."
> 
> But 70 lbs .... if (walking the dog properly) were merely about the size of the dog??? Then all those "Bichons, Shih Tzu's, etc" and such would dld not be straining at the end of flexi leashes. It's not about a given tool. The problems often start at the other end of the leash.


Ok guys, lets not get off topic here please. This isn't about when and if you should use a prong collar. Let's just agree that the prong is often the last resort. I used a prong when I lived in a crowded city and it was dangerous to the dog having him pull and lunge at people. This was mostly my fault because I let anyone and everyone pet him as a small pup so he expected love from strangers. My philosophy is different today.

I just want to know if there is a difference in raising a mal/dutch over a WL GSD.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Ok guys, lets not get off topic here please. This isn't about when and if you should use a prong collar. Let's just agree that the prong is often the last resort. I used a prong when I lived in a crowded city and it was dangerous to the dog having him pull and lunge at people. This was mostly my fault because I let anyone and everyone pet him as a small pup so he expected love from strangers. My philosophy is different today.
> 
> I just want to know if there is a difference in raising a mal/dutch over a WL GSD.


Aww ...no problem but you brought it up ... just saying.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ...no problem but you brought it up ... just saying.


Actually I didnt.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ...no problem but you brought it up ... just saying.


Agreed.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> I still don't understand why you are choosing a dutchie over a nice GSD?
> 
> Anyone can certainly choose any dog they want, but there are plenty of more intimidating-looking GSDs that would fit the bill of "PPD" but not have some of the quirks of the Dutchies or malinois. And I am a malinois person all the way, but I've seen many homes not work out for these breeds. And then the dog pays. Often with his life.
> 
> ...





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Agreed.


Doesn't really matter, but I wasn't the one who brought it up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> From those of you that had both, is there a big difference between raising them? I spoke to DutchKarin about her dutch, she gave me some good thoughts and advice on the DS. But I wouldnt mind hearing from the rest of you who've had both.


That's probably a fairly limited amount of people, that have owned both breeds.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> That's probably a fairly limited amount of people, that have owned both breeds.


I know, probably why this thread hasn't taken off and 90% of it is about prong collars.:smile2:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Id stay away from dutchies. If you want a GSD get a GSD. If you want a Malinois get a Malinois. If you want a dutchie you don't know what you want or what you'll end up with.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Id stay away from dutchies. If you want a GSD get a GSD. If you want a Malinois get a Malinois. If you want a dutchie you don't know what you want or what you'll end up with.


Why? Drives? Nerves? Temperaments?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm of the impression that a Dutchie is sorta like a Mal on Crack??


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

As you've found out, there aren't many people on here with first hand Dutchie knowledge. I would suggest you find the closest Dutch Shepherd breeders and go visit a couple. Meet some dogs. Do the same for Mals. These are the people who can really answer your questions. Sorry, but it doesn't appear 'we' can. And if you do it, please let us know what you find out!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Deb said:


> As you've found out, there aren't many people on here with first hand Dutchie knowledge. I would suggest you find the closest Dutch Shepherd breeders and go visit a couple. Meet some dogs. Do the same for Mals. These are the people who can really answer your questions. Sorry, but it doesn't appear 'we' can. And if you do it, please let us know what you find out!


I've done that. Some of the answers I've got were all over the place. Some say that it's like raising a czech GSD, one guy says to make sure you have an 8 foot fence because they can easily jump it. Another guy says that it was the easiest dog he ever raised because they learn so fast and know what's expected of them. They all say to make sure it gets a ton of stimulation. 
Just trying to absorb all the information I possibly can.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Id stay away from dutchies. If you want a GSD get a GSD. If you want a Malinois get a Malinois. If you want a dutchie you don't know what you want or what you'll end up with.



^^^ This. I've seen some really nice dutchies and a lot more not so nice ones. I was on a dutchie kick for a while. Now not so much. I would say they are a lot more sensitive to environmental things than GSD's. So a lot more time needs to be spent with stuff like that. That's my two cents.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> ^^^ This. I've seen some really nice dutchies and a lot more not so nice ones. I was on a dutchie kick for a while. Now not so much. I would say they are a lot more sensitive to environmental things than GSD's. So a lot more time needs to be spent with stuff like that. That's my two cents.


Hmm, I still have time to decide. You know what I think I'm overthinking things. It just might be fear of the unknown because all I've known are GSDs. I've had GSDs who were very sensitive to city noise. It just took time, and before I knew it they would sit at my feet perfectly calm in the middle of NYC while a construction worker jackhammers the pavement and a fire truck rolls on by. Thank you for the input, any and all info is much appreciated.:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Hmm, I still have time to decide. You know what I think I'm overthinking things. It just might be fear of the unknown because all I've known are GSDs. I've had GSDs who were very sensitive to city noise. It just took time, and before I knew it they would sit at my feet perfectly calm in the middle of NYC while a construction worker jackhammers the pavement and a fire truck rolls on by. Thank you for the input, any and all info is much appreciated.:smile2:


I live just outside the city and the neighborhood goes 24/7. One thing I can say about all my WL GSDs, and even the showline, they are all impressively environmentally sound, naturally, even as pups. Sound wise, nothing at all phases them.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I live just outside the city and the neighborhood goes 24/7. One thing I can say about all my WL GSDs, and even the showline, they are all impressively environmentally sound, naturally, even as pups. Sound wise, nothing at all phases them.


Very interesting, mind PMing me the breeders you go with?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dutchies are a super mixed bag. They might be super chill and dull in the work, they might be completely off the wall crazy, they might be super off the wall crazy until you put pressure on them and then they go dull as ****. Some of them are super smart some of them are dumb as a bag of rocks. They run the gambit with much higher spread in temperament, drives, disposition than GSD or Mals do. They don't offer any advantages to offset that either.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> From those of you that had both, is there a big difference between raising them? I spoke to DutchKarin about her dutch, she gave me some good thoughts and advice on the DS. But I wouldnt mind hearing from the rest of you who've had both.


Perhaps I missed it, but what are you looking for in a dog? What traits do you like, want, desire? What type of activity level do you want? How much energy and drive are you prepared to handle? How strong of a handler are you? How much experience do you have? These are the questions that I think are important to know or figure out. 

I have owned, trained and worked working line GSD's for years, and I still have 2. I have high drive GSD's and hard GSD's. I also have a Belgium Malinois who is high drive, very tough, hard and not an easy dog to handle. I worked with GSD's, DS and BM"s every day. Comparing decent working dogs of each breed that do well as LE k-9's, GSD's are the easiest to handle. With that said, my current male GSD would be a nightmare in the wrong hands or with a novice owner, hard to manage, handle and possibly overly aggressive. However, he is the easiest dog that I have ever raised from a pup, owned, worked and trained. He is perfectly suited for me, but not for a pet home. 

Comparing working line GSD's to BM's and DS is really applies to oranges. Speaking in generalities, a high drive GSD is often less reactive, a little more clear headed and easier to cap or contain itself. A Belgium Malinois is often very similar in temperament to a Dutch Shepherd. The difference I see between a true DS and a BM is how drives are handled and nerves are expressed. From my experience, a DS handled incorrectly can be handler aggressive. A working DS is a little harder temperament wise compared to the GSD and BM. They seem to show less prey drive as an outward expression, but clearly have it. They are the most serious of the three, and need the strongest handler. Now, my experience with DS's are the Dutch type pf DS that are working patrol dogs. They can be friendly and outgoing when relaxed. But, if not handled or trained appropriately they can become frantic and redirect to whom ever is closest in a stressful situation. DS and BM's are not GSD's and need to be handled and worked differently than you would a GSD. This is not a bad thing, but a slightly different approach to handling and training needs to be taken with each dog. Again, generally speaking a DS will be the most serious of the three, IMHO. I do appreciate and respect the strength of a nice DS. 

Environmentally, all three can be fine and should have no issues. I have seen plenty of environmental issues with GSD's and BM's over the years. But, a good dog from any of these breeds should be environmentally sound. 

Belgium Malinois can run the gamut, from sweet pets to solid working dogs to nervy, drivey, reactive, sharp dogs. I'm no expert on BM's or DS, just my personal experience from a few years of doing SchhH or IPO as decoy and working and training with more than a few LE dogs. IME, I have seen BM's that are very handler sensitive while being significantly hard and punishing to a decoy or a stranger. Dogs that are probably easier to handle because of being very handler sensitive but strong working dogs at the same time. This is not something that I have seen in GSD's or other breeds. Typically, a handler sensitive GSD has so many other issues that it rarely works outs as a LE K-9. Many BM's are exceptional patrol dogs, while being very handler sensitive. With that said, not all BM's are handler sensitive some are very hard. I do sport and canine nose work with pet dogs, several Malinois and the temperament is across the board. On any given Saturday at least a 1/2 dozen Malinois owners come out to train, plus GSD owners. There are some super solid, sweet, easy to handle dogs and some dogs that I won't approach and pet but their handlers have no issues. 

Overall and again in general, the Malinois are the highest drive and far more than most folks want to own as a pet. They need to work and something to do. GSD's can run the gamut of drive as well, from low to decent to nice drives, few have the drives of mine or that of a Malinois. Malinois can be the most nervy or reactive of the three, again as a generalization. I really do hate generalizing about breeds. 

I like all 3 breeds, I appreciate the traits, drives and temperament of the three types of dogs. In many cases BM's and DS are the same breed. But there are folks that specialize in breeding a "certain type" of DS or Malinois. A good dog from any of these breeds is a nice dog to work and live with, but possibly not for the novice pet owner. 

I've been a GSD guy for all of my life, I will always have a WLGSD. I have gone to really liking the Belgium Malinois, especially the BM X GSD cross for a working dog. I have a BM now as my new patrol dog to replace my retiring GSD. I can say there is a big difference between a strong GSD and a very strong Malinois. Handling is different and the motivations and drives are different. The dog has real power, drive and hardness that I don't see very much in GSD's over the past few years. While the power and drive is great, this dog needs a very experienced, strong, fair, firm handler. 

My advice would be to figure out what exactly you like and what you want. All three breeds offer some excellent traits with the right dog and breeding. I would go and visit breeders, clubs and see all the dogs that you can. Talk to a lot of people and get as much feedback as you can. 
.
Best of luck in your search


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc does that mean Boru didn't work out? He was a mal/dutch cross, right?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have trained with Dutchie in clubs and with the police. I basically agree with Slamdunc and Cobraracr. I have found there to be more of them that I didn't like than like. I have seen some fine LE and club dogs that function at high levels, but usually with very knowledgeable handlers. The drives and intensity of this breed on average requires a good owner/handler.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Slamdunc does that mean Boru didn't work out? He was a mal/dutch cross, right?


I still have Boru, he is working out just fine. It has taken a little longer than anticipated to get him to where I want him. Not all his fault, mostly that Boomer is still working and not retired yet. I haven't had the time and resources to square away his last remaining issues. Namely, the time to train. In August I started running and instructing a Patrol School with a new green handler and dog. This is giving me the opportunity to focus on the things with Boru that I was unable to do by myself. Namely, a reliable out and eliminating the conflict and hecticness that he came to me with. His reactivity has diminished, he has found a happy place and is very trusting and respectful of me. He is a good example of a handler sensitive dog that has strength, drive and strong nerve. I do not like handler sensitive dogs for myself, I will not create or foster handler sensitivity in a dog to make them easier to handle or work. There has been a lot of fine tuning and the handler sensitivity is diminishing and the clear headedness, impulse control and containment is really coming through. Although he has put his teeth on me a few times, it wasn't really handler aggression if that makes sense. It is frustration and redirecting to the leash, all serious reactivity and leash aggression. If you put Boru in a serious environment and agitate him he is "on,"sharp and there is a lot of teeth flying around. While it is very helpful in handling Boru to realize that he is really not coming back on me, it still hurts when your hand is on the leash that he is biting. it is also somewhat comforting to have worked that out that the aggression is not directed at me, and that makes it easier for me to deal with and manage. He is up to about 7 bites on other handlers and people so far, not counting me. I don't consider him to have really have bitten me, yet. Five of those bites were other handlers before I got him and two since I've had him. Those were on 2 people that took him out of his kennel with out me being present. A couple bites were fairly serious. He truly is a one person dog. He and I get along really well and he really likes me. With me he is extremely friendly, affectionate and has a strong desire to please. I think he is an awesome dog and will be an awesome patrol dog and he would make an awesome SWAT team dog. I may go that route with him. 

Boru is a very strong dog, excellent tracking dog and searches like a machine. Managing that strength and drive is a handful and takes a lot of work and planning. He is not a GSD and can't be worked like one. I am thinking, since I do not have a pedigree that he is a brindle Malinois. He is more Malinois than DS in temperament. But, that can be like splitting hairs. It has been quite a ride with him over the past few months. Taking a 3 1/2 year old dog like him that has had some harsh treatment combined with several bites on other handlers and his strength and drive and basically rehabilitating him has been a lot of work and effort. It is paying off, I will try to get some video today. With all that said, I love this dog and he was meant to be with me. I just have to be up for the challenge everyday.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thanks for the update on Boru. I am happy he is with you

Pity the first actually any...bad guy he catches. They will be wishing they had surrendered I bet.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm so glad you and Boru found each other. Obviously several others gave up on him and just kept passing him on. That probably didn't help him in one way but it did lead him to you!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I still have Boru, he is working out just fine. It has taken a little longer than anticipated to get him to where I want him. Not all his fault, mostly that Boomer is still working and not retired yet. I haven't had the time and resources to square away his last remaining issues. Namely, the time to train. In August I started running and instructing a Patrol School with a new green handler and dog. This is giving me the opportunity to focus on the things with Boru that I was unable to do by myself. Namely, a reliable out and eliminating the conflict and hecticness that he came to me with. His reactivity has diminished, he has found a happy place and is very trusting and respectful of me. He is a good example of a handler sensitive dog that has strength, drive and strong nerve. I do not like handler sensitive dogs for myself, I will not create or foster handler sensitivity in a dog to make them easier to handle or work. There has been a lot of fine tuning and the handler sensitivity is diminishing and the clear headedness, impulse control and containment is really coming through. Although he has put his teeth on me a few times, it wasn't really handler aggression if that makes sense. It is frustration and redirecting to the leash, all serious reactivity and leash aggression. If you put Boru in a serious environment and agitate him he is "on,"sharp and there is a lot of teeth flying around. While it is very helpful in handling Boru to realize that he is really not coming back on me, it still hurts when your hand is on the leash that he is biting. it is also somewhat comforting to have worked that out that the aggression is not directed at me, and that makes it easier for me to deal with and manage. He is up to about 7 bites on other handlers and people so far, not counting me. I don't consider him to have really have bitten me, yet. Five of those bites were other handlers before I got him and two since I've had him. Those were on 2 people that took him out of his kennel with out me being present. A couple bites were fairly serious. He truly is a one person dog. He and I get along really well and he really likes me. With me he is extremely friendly, affectionate and has a strong desire to please. I think he is an awesome dog and will be an awesome patrol dog and he would make an awesome SWAT team dog. I may go that route with him.
> 
> Boru is a very strong dog, excellent tracking dog and searches like a machine. Managing that strength and drive is a handful and takes a lot of work and planning. He is not a GSD and can't be worked like one. I am thinking, since I do not have a pedigree that he is a brindle Malinois. He is more Malinois than DS in temperament. But, that can be like splitting hairs. It has been quite a ride with him over the past few months. Taking a 3 1/2 year old dog like him that has had some harsh treatment combined with several bites on other handlers and his strength and drive and basically rehabilitating him has been a lot of work and effort. It is paying off, I will try to get some video today. With all that said, I love this dog and he was meant to be with me. I just have to be up for the challenge everyday.


Do you have any tips on picking a pup? The drive to the breeder is about 8 hours away but I think it's worth it in the long run. I have heard the usual tips like make sure the pups charge the fence, don't pick a shy pup, see how they react to dropping a pan on the floor, toss your keys and see which one picks it up or retrieves it, pinch him on the side...
anything else?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd defer to someone like slamdunc who has seen and handled many more dutchies than I have. The one I saw was dumb and super hectic. Drive to boot, but impossible to direct. 

I like the look, attitude, and general behavior of a malinois better. If I were looking for a protection dog only, not a sport dog but a deterrent dog, that is easy to handle, I'd look into a good solid GSD.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Julian G said:


> Do you have any tips on picking a pup? The drive to the breeder is about 8 hours away but I think it's worth it in the long run. I have heard the usual tips like make sure the pups charge the fence, don't pick a shy pup, see how they react to dropping a pan on the floor, toss your keys and see which one picks it up or retrieves it, pinch him on the side...
> anything else?



Hmm, those aren't quite what I look for in a pup but I might be looking for something different in a GSD. Definitely not the shy one, nor do I want the one who charges the fence when I walk up, nor the one who is clearly dominant. The last two might be nice if you're seriously wanting a dog to 'work' but not if you want a social pet. When I picked out Enya I was looking for where she was in the pack, what was her reaction time to sudden things. I walked around a corner and startled the puppies, all but her ran about ten feet and then turned to look at me. She went three feet and turned, looked at me and then walked right up to me. Love that response. I watched her interaction with the other pups. She was neither the most dominant nor the most submissive. She'd chase a toy and bring it back or just run and play with it. She kept checking back in with me. She was very alert and curious about everything. When she turned and walked up to me after my accidently scaring her she also turned and laid down next to me. When the other pups took off and ran under a shed she came back to me. I think there's more to looking at pups then just tests. But I wouldn't follow the ones you gave very closely, that's just me.


Seriously, if you're going to a good breeder they should be matching you and the puppy by your experience, what you want to do with the dog and the puppy's personality and temperament (as well as drive, etc., if you want a dog to work).


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Typically, a handler sensitive GSD has so many other issues that it rarely works outs as a LE K-9.


Could you please elaborate on this. I am not disagreeing with you, but would like to hear your thoughts on this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> I do not like handler sensitive dogs for myself, I will not create or foster handler sensitivity in a dog to make them easier to handle or work.
> 
> There has been a lot of fine tuning and the handler sensitivity is diminishing and the clear headedness, impulse control and containment is really coming through.


How does one foster or create handler sensitivity?

How does one diminish handler sensitivity in an adult dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Do you have any tips on picking a pup? The drive to the breeder is about 8 hours away but I think it's worth it in the long run. I have heard the usual tips like make sure the pups charge the fence, don't pick a shy pup, see how they react to dropping a pan on the floor, toss your keys and see which one picks it up or retrieves it, pinch him on the side...
> anything else?


I would be careful with this. Your perfect puppy may just be having a bad day when you go to visit and cause you to eliminate him. Your breeder has been able to observe the pups for weeks.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Keep in mind there are two lines of dutchies. FCI is the "pure bred" lines. That means??? 10 generations of brindle brindle breeding or so. KNPV lines... Slamdunc's Netherland patrol dogs.... the dutch and mal are the same dog just different coat colors. In Europe a bindle dog is a DutchX and a fawn dog is a MalX. Both brindle and fawn show up in the same litter. Happens all the time with the KNPV lines. The X gets dropped for some reason when the dogs cross the Atlantic. 

Some patrol dogs are FCI some KNPV... KNPV lines tend to be preferred due to traits bred for.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I read a bit about this topic on a few Dutch websites (mainly forums). Found, surprisingly, a few people with a Mal and a DS sharing their knowledge. They basically all say the same DutchKarin just said. If you're looking for serious training, then don't take a pure bred DS, only an xDS. 
Most things I've read have already been said by others here, so I will spare myself to translate, lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've seen some super nice Dutchies(from KNPV lines) and I do know, they are not for novices but make really great partners with the right handler. I admire the ones I have seen from those lines. I have seen some others that are not.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> Keep in mind there are two lines of dutchies. FCI is the "pure bred" lines. That means??? 10 generations of brindle brindle breeding or so. KNPV lines... Slamdunc's Netherland patrol dogs.... the dutch and mal are the same dog just different coat colors. In Europe a bindle dog is a DutchX and a fawn dog is a MalX. Both brindle and fawn show up in the same litter. Happens all the time with the KNPV lines. The X gets dropped for some reason when the dogs cross the Atlantic.
> 
> Some patrol dogs are FCI some KNPV... KNPV lines tend to be preferred due to traits bred for.


This is exactly correct. Boru is a "brindle colored Malinois." He is a KNPV titled dog and came from Holland. I had assumed he was a DS until I met with Hennie Bolster and Ruud Leus at a K-9 seminar in NJ. Ruud and Hennie are friends and I brought Boru to train with them to get some insight on his training and issues. I was told that he was a Malinois by them. I'm sure he is some kind of X. As I said I am not a DS or Malinois pedigree expert, but I have been told the dogs from Holland are the same dog as Dutch Karin correctly states, just different colors. Boru is more Malinois to me, but I do see some DS traits as well. Either way he is an awesome dog, he just brought some extra baggage with him on the flight over.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Here is a well known breeder of the knpv lines. Notice the brindle and fawn breeding adults. He does not breed brindle to brindle and fawn to fawn specifically. He breeds for the traits he wants, brindle, fawn doesn't matter to him. In the US we talk Dutch Shepherd and Malinois, in Europe these would all be DSX and MalX and the color determines the term. Mike Suttle is well known for breeding specifically for LE and military. 

Logan Haus Kennels - Tactical K9 Training and Working Dogs

My dutch is FCI so you see brindle brindle for many generations. Baillif has an Ot Vitosha mal, an FCI mal, so it is fawn to fawn for many generations.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does one foster or create handler sensitivity?
> 
> How does one diminish handler sensitivity in an adult dog?


First off, I'm sure there is a genetic component to "handler sensitivity" and thin nerves. Some dogs will genetically be handler sensitive. Others are created.

How does one create handler sensitivity? IMHO, depending on the dog it can be as simple as being an overbearing handler, one that keeps his / her dog under their thumb so to speak. Tone of voice can do it, constantly snapping commands at a dog in a correction tone. Being more negative than positive when dealing with a dog, correcting a dog for every little infraction like it is the end of the world. Not understanding the importance of praise and reward, not understanding the proper ratio of praise and reward to your dog. So many people learn how to correct, hammer or punish their dogs; far fewer people really understand how to properly praise and reward their dog. Many will rush out and get a choke chain, prong or E collar and not understand how to properly pet, praise and reward their dog. 

How many threads do we see on dog forums asking for advice on using corrective tools like prong or E collars? Look a the "_famous_" E collar site that on one page says do not praise your dog after applying compulsion to the dog and it reacts and complies with the command?????? :frown2: This is a problem.

How many threads do we see where people are asking how to properly praise or reward their dog? I can't recall one thread where some one asked about how to properly praise their dog. It should be a simple concept that everyone should instantly get, understand and implement. However, proper praise, how to reward, the timing, ratio and value to a dog are very often needed to be taught to dog owners. 

Harsh corrections, unfair corrections, correcting a dog for a behavior that it doesn't understand or has not be trained to do will cause handler sensitivity. Using your hands to hit or correct a dog is another way to do it. Training or correcting in anger, not being able to control ones temper when training can do it. Training or teaching behaviors through force and not understanding how to properly apply it. Like many do when using the E collar method of "teaching the dog to turn the stimulation off" with out really understanding the concept. :surprise: The old "yank and crank" style of training can certainly screw a dog up. 

How does one diminish handler sensitivity? If it's genetic it's a matter of modifying the handler's behavior to fit the dog. If it is handler induced then by being fair and building trust. By praising and rewarding more than correcting or punishing. By rewarding on a scale of 5-10 X or more greater than any punishment or correction. By using the proper tone of voice and teaching the dog that hands are for praising and petting only. Set the dog up for constant success until the sensitivity is better. Spending time to destress the dog after training and just hanging out and relaxing with the dog. Letting the dog be a dog. That is how I go about it. Naturally, this is just my opinion from working with dogs. With some dogs handler sensitivity can be managed and used to your advantage and make training easier and more effective. Boru, is a beast and dog that wants to bring the fight and get into the action. He is also rather handler sensitive. This was created by his training before I got him, it's not a genetic thing. He had some heavy handed training and it has caused him to be handler sensitive. It has also caused him to be reactive and aggressive to people that he doesn't trust or know. I've spent months working through this and building a relationship of trust and friendship. I've had to desensitize him to prong collar corrections and toy possessiveness. It took several weeks to take a toy from him with out seeing a whole lot of pearly white teeth. Now, I can simply grab a toy that is in his mouth and remove it with out any issues. I use his handler sensitivity to my advantage and corrections can be less than a dog of his size, power, aggressiveness and determination might normally need. Getting his trust and respect has gone a long way to reducing his handler sensitivity and reactiveness.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> Do you have any tips on picking a pup? The drive to the breeder is about 8 hours away but I think it's worth it in the long run. I have heard the usual tips like make sure the pups charge the fence, don't pick a shy pup, see how they react to dropping a pan on the floor, toss your keys and see which one picks it up or retrieves it, pinch him on the side...
> anything else?


It really depends on what you are looking for in a dog. What do you want to do with the dog? I have a series of tests that I do when selecting a pup. I like the dominant, outgoing confident pups, confident and with good nerves. I do use a modified version of the Volhard tests, I simply like the dogs that they don't. The more alpha, dominant and stronger dogs. I do like the puppies in the litter that seek people out and want affection, but are happy to go off on their own and play. I look for dogs with high prey drive, hunt and retrieve drive. The pups that will stand up for themselves and will object to being turned over, etc. 

I do some of the same things that you mentioned. At the end, I go with my gut after analyzing what i have seen.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> First off, I'm sure there is a genetic component to "handler sensitivity" and thin nerves. Some dogs will genetically be handler sensitive. Others are created.
> 
> How does one create handler sensitivity? IMHO, depending on the dog it can be as simple as being an overbearing handler, one that keeps his / her dog under their thumb so to speak. Tone of voice can do it, constantly snapping commands at a dog in a correction tone. Being more negative than positive when dealing with a dog, correcting a dog for every little infraction like it is the end of the world. Not understanding the importance of praise and reward, not understanding the proper ratio of praise and reward to your dog. So many people learn how to correct, hammer or punish their dogs; far fewer people really understand how to properly praise and reward their dog. Many will rush out and get a choke chain, prong or E collar and not understand how to properly pet, praise and reward their dog.
> 
> ...


Perfect explanation. A bad or harsh correction out of nowhere for something minor really kills the trust (IME). I always felt that trust and bond is the most important part of any relationship (again, in my experience). After reading that I think I'll be fine, thanks for all the information and the time you took to share.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> *I've had to desensitize him to prong collar corrections* and toy possessiveness.


Could you elaborate on the bolded?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mineareworkingline asked:


*I've had to desensitize him to prong collar corrections and toy possessiveness.*
Could you elaborate on the bolded?

Sure. In the beginning Boru would redirect to his leash for a prong correction. It didn't necessarily have to even be very hard. But, the reaction could be severe depending on what you were taking him away from. For example, doing obedience and paying with a kong on a rope, then trying to get the toy back. If I told him to sit and out the kong and he then broke to pick it up, I would give a pop on the prong. Or out the kong and try to take him back to the car when the session was over, he would redirect to the leash. Redirecting to the leash isn't a huge deal, unless your hand is on the leash.  It was significantly worse when trying to remove him after a set of bite work was over. Trying to walk out of a building and he would try to rush back in to get to the decoy and he would get a correction and redirect. Doing OB around a decoy was challenging. Keep in mind that this is a dog that clearly understands his obedience commands. He very well knows, sit, stay, out, down, heeling, etc. He is very well obedience trained. However, one issue I had was when he was amped up in drive, he suddenly became deaf and would ignore commands and become reactive. 

I started pairing light pops on the prong when rewarding with his toy. I'd pay with the toy and as he was about to catch it, I'd give a pop on the prong. Doing that really seemed to help with the leash aggression. Steve Strom posted a really good video showing this and it works. Unfortunately, I have no idea where that thread is or the video to repost. Perhaps, Steve can repost the video. Pairing the prong with the reward went a long way. Stepping up the corrections to get him to out and gaining his respect also went a long way. The dog has a lot of conflict from prior training for outing, as is evident in his PH1where he barely would out at all and was dirty. I do not like frantic, hectic behavior in bite work as I feel most of that is handler or training induced. I certainly have been working on the reactivity and it is going well.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Mineareworkingline asked:
> 
> 
> *I've had to desensitize him to prong collar corrections and toy possessiveness.*
> ...


Maybe @*Steve Strom* will see this and re-post the video. I never thought about pairing a correction with a reward, to me it just sounds like it would be confusing to the dog. Almost looking forward to the correction? Or getting more comfortable with receiving one to not go up the leash.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I never thought of a reward for a correction either, but it makes sense. The dog who would be 'aggressive' at a correction now instead of looking for a 'target' for that frustration would be looking for the reward or toy. Now there is a good reason to out an object or a decoy and it would build respect for the handler and a reason to do what it's asked to do.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

JulianG,
Not exactly. It has to be done correctly. You are not pairing a true "correction" with the reward. The dog just realizes the stimulus from the prong can be a good thing and not something to become aggressive or reactive too. 

Don't think of it like the dog is getting "corrected" to get his toy or reward. That is not it at all. You are desensitizing the dog to the prong. All it does is change how the dog relates to a prong collar correction. 

I'm sure some one smarter than me can explain it much better the video would certainly help


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

That makes sense. I think you explained it well. Would you use this to begin with, with every correction on a prong, or only when working. I guess what I'm asking is, how do you start? Do you just go for a walk the first time and have the toy ready to be introduced when he needs a correction?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I think I understand, the dog saw the prong pop as maybe an attack on him, but you made him associate the pop with something good. I never really had to give a harsh correction, maybe I've been lucky. I use the prong to "snap him out of it" mostly. Like I had a problem with dog aggression, anytime he would see another dog he would turn into a wild beast. I used a slight pop to get the focus on me and then reward.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Deb said:


> That makes sense. I think you explained it well. Would you use this to begin with, with every correction on a prong, or only when working. I guess what I'm asking is, *how do you start?* Do you just go for a walk the first time and have the toy ready to be introduced when he needs a correction?


I think he was just talking about desentitizing his dog to the prong personally. When he received him, he had prong aggression (from my understanding). Maybe it was because the previous handlers did a number on him with the prong. So he had to get him to stop reacting aggressively to the prong. Kind of like how he had to train the dog to "load up" in the car, in a previous thread.
You might not need to "start" if your dog isn't reactive to the prong.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is the one link:





And here's a little different exercise with a different explanation:


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Julian G said:


> I think he was just talking about desentitizing his dog to the prong personally. When he received him, he had prong aggression (from my understanding). Maybe it was because the previous handlers did a number on him with the prong. So he had to get him to stop reacting aggressively to the prong. Kind of like how he had to train the dog to "load up" in the car, in a previous thread.
> You might not need to "start" if your dog isn't reactive to the prong.


I understand that and I've been lucky in that I've never had to put one of my own dogs on a prong. I'm just interested in learning about this and part of comprehending it is to understand how to use it correctly. For me, when I'm learning about something new, I like to understand the whole process. Incorrectly using a technique in training can lead to failure.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Deb said:


> That makes sense. I think you explained it well. Would you use this to begin with, with every correction on a prong, or only when working. I guess what I'm asking is, how do you start? Do you just go for a walk the first time and have the toy ready to be introduced when he needs a correction?


I teach leave it first, when they're young but not for a reward or toy. I walk him past something I know will get his attention and tell him leave it followed by a light pop and I just keep walking and praise calmly as he follows along.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks, Steve. And the videos you posted also gave a good explanation. I really like this, wish I'd known it years ago. I'm still working Enya on a flat color but have a feeling I may need to go to a slip with her, while attentive, she's also quite an independent young lady. We're working on a leave it, especially with the cats. She's about 50/50. If they don't move she's good, if they do she's onto them. She only wants to play, but I've had to remove a cat's head a couple of times from her mouth. She wants to play, no biting on them, so that's good. But not a good game at all. The cats just lay there and wait for me to get her off. It's interesting to watch her with my daughter's outside cat, she has learned to respect that one as she's felt his claws on her face. She'll try to herd him and keep him in one spot. In full mode, there is no leave it. Gotta love a puppy, We're working on that.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve,
Thanks for posting those videos. They explain it pretty well. Julian G is correct, I am doing this because of my dog's reaction to corrections and I want to change that behavior. Joanne Plumb is excellent and her videos are very worthwhile. Her approach to corrections trained behavior is excellent. I agree 100% with her on not correcting a dog for a behavior that it has not been trained to do or understand. It is a fundamental concept in my view of dog training. That is why I am against the old "yank and crank" style to teach behaviors and those that use E collar stim to "teach" a behavior and teach the dog to turn the collar off.  I prefer to train and teach behaviors positively, corrections come for disobedience when the dog understands what he has done wrong, that is fair IMHO. Corrections also come when the dog understands a behavior and decides not to do the behavior that is commanded. 

There is a lot to be learned from both videos that Steve posted. Joanne and Mike Diehl are both excellent trainers and handlers.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> Steve,
> Thanks for posting those videos. They explain it pretty well. Julian G is correct, I am doing this because of my dog's reaction to corrections and I want to change that behavior. Joanne Plumb is excellent and her videos are very worthwhile. Her approach to corrections trained behavior is excellent. I agree 100% with her on not correcting a dog for a behavior that it has not been trained to do or understand. It is a fundamental concept in my view of dog training. That is why I am against the old "yank and crank" style to teach behaviors and those that use E collar stim to "teach" a behavior and teach the dog to turn the collar off.  I prefer to train and teach behaviors positively, corrections come for disobedience when the dog understands what he has done wrong, that is fair IMHO. Corrections also come when the dog understands a behavior and decides not to do the behavior that is commanded.
> 
> There is a lot to be learned from both videos that Steve posted. Joanne and Mike Diehl are both excellent trainers and handlers.


I believe the same thing. It's why my first question (of many) to the obedience class Enya is going to was what method do you use for training. Training should be fun and exciting, making the dogs eager to learn, not something that's not engaging and full of negatives. It's the same with children, they need to know the expectations before any punishment.


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## kast2L (Aug 23, 2016)

Hey @Julian sorry I wasn't able to respond to your PM, not enough posts on the forums yet lol. I have a Mal and he is awesome, but I had the luxury of working at home during the first few months of having him. I got an x-pen to control his area and I feel like with any dog its a lot of work but I also got my guy fixed around 5 months so that probably helped with more serious behavior issues. Alphonse is 9 months now, definitely not where I want him to be because I cannot devote as much time. The worst thing he has ever done is chew a phone charger and a pair of my wifes shoes. I always redirected him when he tried herding us with a toy or something he loved to chew on, he tried to chew on table legs, gave him a toy and told him good when he chewed on that instead and now I can trust him to only chew stuff that is his (apparently my socks are his too and only my socks not my wifes!). 

The exercise stuff is important and I recommend feeding more then the bag (if not raw) says depending on how hard they exercise. They aren't lying about the energy though, he'll go hard for 10 minutes, be tired and 5-10 min later act like it never happened, but usually once I got that initial energy out he was good to hang out in the house, but again I set boundaries for him, gate for the kitchen and gate for the main hall way so he can't do what he wants. I got really frustrated at times and I knew it wasn't a dog issue, it was a ME issue. So I studied up and learned how to better communicate with him and its been an awesome experience. 

Also MATCH THEIR ENERGY! As another poster said every day is a challenge and my guy still challenges me at 9 months but I meet that challenge every day.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

kast2L said:


> Hey @*Julian* sorry I wasn't able to respond to your PM, not enough posts on the forums yet lol. I have a Mal and he is awesome, but I had the luxury of working at home during the first few months of having him. I got an x-pen to control his area and I feel like with any dog its a lot of work but I also got my guy fixed around 5 months so that probably helped with more serious behavior issues. Alphonse is 9 months now, definitely not where I want him to be because I cannot devote as much time. The worst thing he has ever done is chew a phone charger and a pair of my wifes shoes. I always redirected him when he tried herding us with a toy or something he loved to chew on, he tried to chew on table legs, gave him a toy and told him good when he chewed on that instead and now I can trust him to only chew stuff that is his (apparently my socks are his too and only my socks not my wifes!).
> 
> The exercise stuff is important and I recommend feeding more then the bag (if not raw) says depending on how hard they exercise. They aren't lying about the energy though, he'll go hard for 10 minutes, be tired and 5-10 min later act like it never happened, but usually once I got that initial energy out he was good to hang out in the house, but again I set boundaries for him, gate for the kitchen and gate for the main hall way so he can't do what he wants. I got really frustrated at times and I knew it wasn't a dog issue, it was a ME issue. So I studied up and learned how to better communicate with him and its been an awesome experience.
> 
> Also MATCH THEIR ENERGY! As another poster said every day is a challenge and my guy still challenges me at 9 months but I meet that challenge every day.


Sounds like every GSD I ever had lol. Thanks for the reply.


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