# introducing Marta -- new girl at carmspack



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when I train I don't train for points, I train to observe and understand the genetic potentials of my dogs .
so last month at full moon with a slight dusting of snow enhancing visibility I was able to be a see one of my "new" youngsters engaging in undirected activity.

how it happened .

every evening , anywhere after 11 , sometimes till after 1 , I am out with one of my dogs allowing them free run while I do some chores .
that evening I took longer in the back kennels - one north south 50 foot run (solid wooden back)
from which two east west facing kennels form a rectangle .

usually "pup" follows me or doesn't go far - waiting for me to reappear .

okay finished , come out of the enclosed area , no dog, call dog, no dog. What the ?

earlier the horses had been agitated - presence of a coyote lurking in the bush at the far end of the paddock.

I look into the paddock and I see the 3 of them, rocky mountain horses - all seniors over 20 years of age , nicely organized at the near side of the paddock fencing , where they are usually fed . They were all facing the same direction .

there under their bellies and behind their hind hooves was the "pup" , who would not come out - very concentrated and focused on the horses , going back and forth in a sweeping arc to hold them there.

I watched without any more input . 

the only direct contact she had with the horses previous to this was when she first arrived and I tucked her under my arm to make the introduction. Each horse had a sniff , each nostril . 

then she shot away from them and into the bush . Great . Now what .

the horses started to drift .

when she came out she gathered the horses up again and delivered them to the same spot.

I was very very impressed by her soft way of going about things -- no predatory posturing , or excited prey moves . All very quiet and well managed.

this time she did a full counter clockwise circling of them and when in front of them she would rise on her hind feet and give each one a touch on the nose .

that got me excited because if she was nipping that could be instant big trouble . Instead the horses were calmed and there heads dropped .

so that was a good hour's entertainment , and it was a clear and cold night - enough for me already - 

if I went in the horses would start to follow me , and then she amped up her efforst . Totally counter productive .

so I went to get one of my mature dogs to lure her out , which was good up to a point as she did come out and started to follow us back to the house .

then she saw that the horses were not organized the way she wanted and she went back once again .

went up close with the lure and this time I clipped her onto the leash . 

no training . natural instinct . very methodical execution of a plan she had .

not a behaviour set I would have expected from her pedigree.

introducing MARTA vom Fleming haus , a female I bought to recover a line that I had lost 

Carmspack Brandy Walker

Samba , a former (missed) forum member had Carmspack Samba U-CDX CDX TDX RA 

other progeny tended to be males and they went to work. 

Marta's full pedigree is represented by male who is from previous litter - (repeat litter)

Ender Vom Haus Fleming 


for those that like Brawnson and Kutter


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nice. What is your take on Eick von der Berger Hochburg?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Never met Brawson-but used to take a daughter of his to training -loved her-always wondered who bred Brawson


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WOW ... amazing so that natural instinct bit ... is apparently a thing ... impressive.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Very nice!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wait, you're outside doing chores at 1am?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wait, you're outside doing chores at 1am?


LOL ...I'm gonna add ... flashlight???


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wait, you're outside doing chores at 1am?


oh yes I am .
I love being out and alone - just me and a dog . No agenda . Just observation. No flashlight .
Cold doesn't bother me . I remember many a stormy winter night taking my dog out for a walk. Simon and Garfunkel songs in my mind - hello darkness .....
Sort of reminds you that you are still alive.
Stinging bugs do bother me though .

Bad weather - rain - I head over to the barn and let the dog run on the treadmill or play "find em " games -- can make hides in old furniture, disconnected plumbing , cupboards - whatever I can invent. 
This is usual for dogs going out "to work" - test and build .

One night a few hot summers ago I took a stroll with a dog and ended up in the back near the paddocks. Full moon again. 
I had my back to a couple of bales of hay . Dog lay beside me . I was watching migrating birds as they made their way across the moon . Zen moment .
I fell asleep , to awaken to bird song. 

I read before going out . Do my stuff -- ruminate ideas , come in read and then conk out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't you wonder why I post to the forum and it is 2 a.m ?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Alright. You have my attention. What are the plans for this girl?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Love that story. What a great natural instinct. And also amazing that the horses didn't hurt her, especially when there are coyotes around and they could panic. Yu have good karma on that farm.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Nice. What is your take on Eick von der Berger Hochburg?


I'll work around him. lol . He is solid . He has produced . He has a beautiful deep grip.

I wouldn't have gone out of my way to incorporate Yoschy , but I know what he brings and I know what I have .
I'll be bringing Bernd and Racker into the picture . 

The male line carrying these old lines definitely has vice grips . Kilo would take a french ring bite suit and do a bite to the thigh. The decoy would show his multi coloured bruise from groin to knee in hues of purples and yellows.

here is some more information Males - Fleming K-9 
Diehl's K9 Training LLC

I like the combination that resulted in Rosco.

did she inherit the insatiable ball drive -- oh yes . Any size , any texture - will retrieve wood ,glass, plastic , snow , rocks , pillows and of course standard dog toy or play equipment.

Saphire comes over to play with her (waiting for nicer weather). Hunt/search is very good. Does not come out without her find. Does not need support , guidance or encouragement. 

And -- I like Kutter . Will be building on the frame work of his pedigree through what I have.
And -- I like Brawnson . I did have a Brawnson breeding (Carmspack Kohl was tge dan 0 tested by Diehl and Bastiansen (sorry if mucked up spelling) Carmspack Kohl)
one of those , a black dog Tyko just passed away at 13 years of age.

I like everything about Kerta's pedigree.

I see lots of potential here.

allowing her to grow up .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Marta , in spite of the serious dogs in her background and her potential for fire-power is a thoroughly sociable , open, clear dog .
When she was about 12 weeks I took her in to town to walk the block . Into the post office line up , past the school a grand child attends, back to the "village" . I was not prepared to need to walk past the end of a block where two days before an old fashioned car mechanic's and pizza outlet had stood side by side. 
I go into that direction and there is the clang of earth movers - buildings being demolished and earth being razed.
Not a hitch -- an awareness but no stress of hesitation. 
Met people in a non-chalant way.

The only time she looked over her shoulder was , laughably , when an over weight english bulldog was walked past us and it was short of breath and very snorty.

She has endured thunder storms , and the folks next door doing fire works or target practice - long arm .

So I know she is gun sure. 


Just a good looking, pretty sable female , well conformed (will get a picture up at some time) very pleasant to be around dog WHO COULD BE A PET -- she could be a very normal pet - no issues .
Never so much as a burp. No health issues . 

There was no land sharking . No inappropriate behaviour.
In spite of my having other dogs she has not had the opportunity to run and play with them.

When I took my Mathias out to lure her away from the horses that was her first direct contact with another dog. 
She sees them all . But no play. 

First we get the primary relationship established .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Super Carmen.  Keep us updated on her progress!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Loved Kutter!!!!!!!!!!! weather screw ups kept me from breeding Csabre to him!


And you had Bob's Asko in your lines too!!! I have heard he was a good producer as well.



Lee


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## squerly (Aug 3, 2008)

Oh my goodness, you really do seem to know your stuff. I'm very impressed with your dog(s), your knowledge and your lifestyle.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Asko was a great dog - as was his brother who produced well in Sweden.
That is one of the reasons I was so interested in this litter -- Faya, being an Asko daughter.
As I said the majority of pups that Faya produced were males that were lost to me because the went to work - not available for breeding.

I loved Olaf , Olaf von Rauchig Tal

the owner and decoy friend came up and staid a while . Saw some very good footage of the dog at work.

I gave them every opportunity to test the pup any which way they wanted.
She went home with them -- and the rest is history.

Later on Julia Priest of Sonthausen owned (?) and used Asko well in her breeding programme.

Faya , who graces the page of the BrownTrout yearly calendar was a mini-Asko , feminine look a like.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Interesting pedigree. I have either trained with, trialed with and/or saw offspring of several of the dogs. Vala's sire is even in there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Love that story. What a great natural instinct. And also amazing that the horses didn't hurt her, especially when there are coyotes around and they could panic. Yu have good karma on that farm.


that is what surprised me and caused me to stand some distance away and just watch.

I described the event some days later when out and around with Saphire.

she was so "soft" so easy with the horses - even when directly underneath them - at night - when horses can get a little self protective - especially since there had been a coyote.

the rocky mountain horses are pretty spook proof -- mine are - when the neighbour fireworks go off they run to the end of the paddock closest to the neighbour to rubber neck - 
180 degree difference from the morgan I had before that would go into avoidance when silver poplar leaves quivered in the wind.

pretty amazing horses for sure - but still horses where things can go wrong so fast - not out of nastiness but out of size and power.

what had me worried was the "new" behaviour after the second time the dog escorted the horses to the fence -- and that was her rising up on her hind and giving a snout or muzzle punch and the horses dropped their heads - relaxed.

we had one repeat performance not that long ago -- sort of the same time when there was a farm dog thread on the forum.

she would have been an ideal candidate - sense of responsibility , a natural stock sense, a natural control of herself . 

this time she went into their run in shed , one left and she worked on Toffee to get her back into the shed . 

I appreciate the natural skill - but I don't want her going in there on her own. So each time she is out with me she is on leash.


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## melissajancie (Dec 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> don't you wonder why I post to the forum and it is 2 a.m ?



And I thought it was because you have insomnia issues like I do :smile2:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Interesting pedigree. I have either trained with, trialed with and/or saw offspring of several of the dogs. Vala's sire is even in there.


well then that's a good thing.

so do you see sources of active aggression.

I like how the pedigree incorporates the best of WGWL, Czech , and old DDR --


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> Asko was a great dog - as was his brother who produced well in Sweden.
> 
> 
> Later on Julia Priest of Sonthausen owned (?) and used Asko well in her breeding programme.
> ...


No - borrowed/leased.....came to a sad unnecessary end   


Lee


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Another night owl here...

That is SO cool! Well, she does have some herding lines, but waaaay waaaay back. 

Never know what's lurking in the back 40 that can sometimes pop out and surprise you!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

carmspack said:


> oh yes I am .
> I love being out and alone - just me and a dog . No agenda . Just observation. No flashlight .
> Cold doesn't bother me . I remember many a stormy winter night taking my dog out for a walk. Simon and Garfunkel songs in my mind - hello darkness .....
> Sort of reminds you that you are still alive.
> ...


I'm totally with ya on everything except intentionally being awake at that hour  I love to stand out in the dark and look at the stars and the clouds in the moonlight when the dogs are doing their business. I recall getting to enjoy several magical nights of the brightest stars I'd ever seen when my pup was little and had to be pottied at night.

But... my bedtime is 10pm and unless someone has an urgent issue...I'm sleeping


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

THIS is *SO* exciting to read!

Can't wait to see what's ahead for this little girl!

Best of luck with your program!
Moms


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> well then that's a good thing.
> 
> so do you see sources of active aggression.
> 
> I like how the pedigree incorporates the best of WGWL, Czech , and old DDR --


Yes, several sources for social aggression/active aggression.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Marta is a young dog. I had to ask myself just exactly what is her age .
She was born March 10 . 2016 and I have had her since the middle of May.

sunsilver said
"Well, she does have some herding lines, but waaaay waaaay back. 
Never know what's lurking in the back 40 that can sometimes pop out and surprise you!"

If you look into the pedigree the lines are closer than you think - look at Yoschy for example - Uwe to the
Busecker programme.

BUT -- as I have often said in answering requests to review a pedigree it is not just the appearance of a dog but the entire direction and drift the pedigree takes on through the generations until you arrive at "your" pup.

Herding hasn't been a main consideration - not intentionally conserved.

As I said I was surprised by her ability to read and adjust to the beasts she was working with.
I am just blown away by how she managed to gauge the strength of her "influence" and have these horses comply.

I have had experience with a hard-core farm dog herding breed . Very regimented in recognizing time and routine , and order . Great sense of initiative and responsibility. He was a "header" and was very pushy - too pushy . One setting .

In the von Stephanitz tome there is mention of an English shepherd which is NOT a border collie ! being introduced as part of the "indigenous" herding dogs used to make the breed .
There was genetic evidence (the canine genomic study) that there was a commonality with the GSD, a genetic link .
The Malinois does not have this genetic link to the GSD .

In the past I have provided dogs to working farms, cattle, dairy, sheep , goats .

now back to Marta. She did exhibit natural , raw , behaviour which surprised me. It gives me some ideas on how to tie together bits of make-up to improve the next generations. 
She sure did get a self-reward in doing that job.

would I use her for herding? No. Would I recommend her for herding ? No.

other important things that make a herder's life easy weren't there . The sort of things that some people wouldn't understand and say I was in unicorn land . 

Generally when I look at a pedigree and see advanced tracking FH's 2 and 3 - is a smart dog , well developed areas of the brain , and methodical thinking decision making "on the fly". Look at Eick 100 points. 

In the future she will be paired with some of my Urban Tracking Excellent / bomb/ detection/ tracking talented dogs.

For herding -- carmspack PAX -- who is very handler responsive , tractable, biddable has been doing herding for the last 2 years . He pretty much amazed the instructor and his natural sense .

that pedigree was deliberately built to keep herding traits and genetics alive Carmspack Pax

saphire's Gus is a littermate.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was hoping to meet Marta on her way East to you. Though at least Saphire and I got to share a meal during the trip. I still owe you for the herbs, I haven't forgotten!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

herbs , shmerbs -- never mind - hope you used them well (whatever they were because I forgot) lol
play it forward.

yes , there isn't much not to like with Marta . For a moment I thought I couldn't get her away from Saphire's family !


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

expecting a big snow , thanks Colorado low 

conditions today - no wind worth commenting on , slight sugar frosting of snow ground cover (so far).

before starting dinner , with Marta resting in her crate, I went out with a cube of frozen green tripe - about
3 inches square .

went to back of garage and walked east 40 feet , breeze to my back, did a sharp right hand turn , travelling south , straight line about 150 feet , dropped cube at end , turned and came back on track (which I could see the foot imprints in the snow).

after dinner -- 9:30 (still adjusting to the spring forward deal) , I took Marta out , clipped a leather lead onto her collar , drew the lead across her chest and under her right arm. Bam down goes the head and she knows what to do .
I walk just behind her so that she gets the idea of even pressure pulling forward . There is not a sound from me.
There had been just enough of a light snow fall to cover the steps . And it is dark . No visible clues for either of us

didn't take long at all. 

now all of them are tucked away for the night -- and I am finished as well. Let's see how much snow there will be in the morning.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Marta sounds like a great dog with many talents. I've enjoyed reading this thread. I look forward to hearing all about Marta's progress.


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