# What happens to the dog with a poor temperament?



## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

I have a question that will require a bit of back story. This is non-GSD related really but I wanted to get a general perspective from people with experience. I hope I'm posting in the right place. 

Earlier this year my husband and I decided we were ready to add another dog to our life (our GSD passed away last year). I had researched another breed and thought we would enjoy having this particular breed. So I did lots of research and found good breeders (everyone I contacted was highly recommended). I ended up connecting with a breeder that had an adult available. I was VERY excited because we wanted an adult and I knew it was going to be a bit of a challenge to find an adult from a well respected breeder that would also be a good fit for our household. So we get the dog and she was SUPER sweet, but she was also what I would consider a complete mess. She was afraid of EVERYTHING and would hardly leave her crate. She had been with the breeder her whole life and I think (although I'm not certain) that she must have spent the majority of life living in an outdoor kennel. Anyway we had her for a week and I contacted the breeder and told her she wasn't the right fit for us. That she was way too nervous and afraid of everything to be the type of dog we were looking for. The breeder took her back and happily refunded our money with no questions asked. 

Ever since this happened I've been wondering what does a breeder do if they end up breeding a dog with "bad nerves"? Do you tell potential buyers that the dog has bad nerves? I can see where that would be a problem, because then you might worry they aren't going to a good home (or no one will want to buy them). 

In our situation, if the breeder had of told us the dog had some issues before we brought her home I would have had different expectations at least. I'm still not sure we would have kept her (especially for the money we paid, very expensive) but I would have looked at it more like a "rescue" dog that would need lots of exposure, patience, etc, so my perspective would have been different.

Just curious what generally happens in situations where a dog doesn't end up being typical of what a breeder is breeding for?


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

GSDreSearching said:


> I have a question that will require a bit of back story. This is non-GSD related really but I wanted to get a general perspective from people with experience. I hope I'm posting in the right place.
> 
> Earlier this year my husband and I decided we were ready to add another dog to our life (our GSD passed away last year). I had researched another breed and thought we would enjoy having this particular breed. So I did lots of research and found good breeders (everyone I contacted was highly recommended). I ended up connecting with a breeder that had an adult available. I was VERY excited because we wanted an adult and I knew it was going to be a bit of a challenge to find an adult from a well respected breeder that would also be a good fit for our household. So we get the dog and she was SUPER sweet, but she was also what I would consider a complete mess. She was afraid of EVERYTHING and would hardly leave her crate. She had been with the breeder her whole life and I think (although I'm not certain) that she must have spent the majority of life living in an outdoor kennel. Anyway we had her for a week and I contacted the breeder and told her she wasn't the right fit for us. That she was way too nervous and afraid of everything to be the type of dog we were looking for. The breeder took her back and happily refunded our money with no questions asked.
> 
> ...



I just wanted to add, we felt awful returning her. She was a very sweet dog and I actually think we would have been a really good home for her (quiet, very routine, not a lot of people coming and going). For weeks and weeks I had thought about contacting the breeder to see if we could work something out where the dog just lived with us (even if she was officially owned by the breeder). But, I ended up knowing that we have limited space, time, etc so really we could only responsibly get one dog. So that is how I ended up going back to GSDs and we will be getting a puppy in Nov.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> In our situation,* if the breeder had of told us the dog had some issues before we brought her home I would have had different expectations at least. * I'm still not sure we would have kept her (especially for the money we paid, very expensive) but I would have looked at it more like a "rescue" dog that would need lots of exposure, patience, etc, so my perspective would have been different.


When dogs are kennel dogs, a lot of times, the breeders have no clue on the dogs nerve base outside of that kennel... Most of the time the dogs never leave the property where they are comfortable.. so they don't get to see the dogs behavior once it's been removed..

I don't know how bad the dog was, that you bought.. But I will say, I've had a few dogs in for training that were kennel dogs, and it did take them a bit to adjust and to take everything in, as the world was a whole new place for them.. After being with me for a few weeks the dogs opened up and were much more confident, out going and relaxed..


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm not a breeder, expert on anything, but in my humble opinion, I don't think 1 week was enough time for the dog to settle into anything, especially after likely being an outdoor kennelled dog. 

There is a 2-week shut down philosophy that a lot of rescues use - it's basically a two week period where the dog does pretty much nothing but "be" and observe the household before it's integrated into anything. This gives the dog the chance to get used to smells, noises, people, and any other activity that goes on in the house. 

Personally, I would give a dog at least 3 months before I would feel confident in assessing behaviours (outside of flat out aggression / an attack) and I would have put the dog through a variety of situations (once it is more comfortable with me, and a bond has been created). 

Just my two cents.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I do not have very good advice on that.. as I am not a breeder, but do you mind me asking what breed it was.. you've just got me curious.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

G-burg said:


> When dogs are kennel dogs, a lot of times, the breeders have no clue on the dogs nerve base outside of that kennel... Most of the time the dogs never leave the property where they are comfortable.. so they don't get to see the dogs behavior once it's been removed..
> 
> I don't know how bad the dog was, that you bought.. But I will say, I've had a few dogs in for training that were kennel dogs, and it did take them a bit to adjust and to take everything in, as the world was a whole new place for them.. After being with me for a few weeks the dogs opened up and were much more confident, out going and relaxed..





Kyleigh said:


> I'm not a breeder, expert on anything, but in my humble opinion, I don't think 1 week was enough time for the dog to settle into anything, especially after likely being an outdoor kennelled dog.
> 
> There is a 2-week shut down philosophy that a lot of rescues use - it's basically a two week period where the dog does pretty much nothing but "be" and observe the household before it's integrated into anything. This gives the dog the chance to get used to smells, noises, people, and any other activity that goes on in the house.
> 
> ...


I know what both of you mean and I thought a lot about that during the week we had her and also the weeks after returning her. I really questioned if I was making a mistake (especially because I think we would have been a good home for her). I know she would have improved with time but based on my past experience with dogs I felt confident that she would always be the type of dog that was scared and very skittish. I had that type of a dog a long time ago. She was sweet and I loved her a lot but I wouldn't want a fearful dog like that again if I can avoid it. It was draining honestly. Now, if I had unlimited resources (especially space and time! and money!), I would have kept her, knowing I would eventually get the type of dog I was originally looking for (just a normal, sociable dog that was standard for the breed).




wyoung2153 said:


> I do not have very good advice on that.. as I am not a breeder, but do you mind me asking what breed it was.. you've just got me curious.


I know it is sort of annoying to be so vague but I don't feel comfortable saying the breed. The breeder was very supportive and took the dog back, so I wouldn't want to jeopardize any reputations. I know it is a small world out there! 

But this situation did make me think, what do breeders do when they have a dog that has "faults"?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

GSDreSearching said:


> I know it is sort of annoying to be so vague but I don't feel comfortable saying the breed. The breeder was very supportive and took the dog back, so I wouldn't want to jeopardize any reputations. I know it is a small world out there!
> 
> But this situation did make me think, what do breeders do when they have a dog that has "faults"?


No worries. I understand. I have had my own experiences where I won't talk about the specific breeder so instead I PM the person who asks the question or just decline to answer. No hard feelings here!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The dog may have been sound genetically but was completely under socialized. The breeder may have had a good reputation but for whom? Some keep them just for producing puppies, some only take them out to shows and that would be the only socialization they get, which is better than none. I think you did the right thing if you wanted a socially sound dog. A dog that skittish and worried as an adult is a huge project to take on with no guarantee of success. Next time take the dog out of its own familiar environment or take a good trainer with you for testing the potential new dog. Nice that you got your money back though.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think it depends on the breeder-some breeders are upfront and tell the buyers what the issue is-they could sell the dog at a reduced price -or offer a pup later on-or offer to take the pup back-usually there is a contract stating what the breeder will do. Most do not offer temperament guarantee. If the person wanted to keep the dog-hopefully the breeder might also offer suggestions for trainers or be a resource-that would be ideal


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

In the end though if the breeder happily took the dog back and refunded your money -that's good


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with holland. I just rescued a mini aussie, (private rescue), the people who had him said he was friendly, just the 'cats meow"...yep, they dumped him off and tho he's better than he was, he was petrified of everything..Wouldn't go thru doors, stairs, put a collar on him he freezes, god forbid a leash, and he's only 3 mths old..He was over vaccinated/wormed since he was 2 weeks. Forget about going near someone he doesn't know, and heck, if WE try to catch him and he even thinks we're trying to 'catch' him, he's gone..He's much better than he was, loves other dogs/cats, and is very mushy with us when it suits him, but this was NOT lack of socialization, this is pure genetics, and hey I'm really not complaining, because he IS a rescue and he'll live here for the rest of his life, he needed a home, he has his quirks and is what he is..It's just sad that he is the way he is..


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with holland. I just rescued a mini aussie, (private rescue), the people who had him said he was friendly, just the 'cats meow"...yep, they dumped him off and tho he's better than he was, he was petrified of everything..Wouldn't go thru doors, stairs, put a collar on him he freezes, god forbid a leash, and he's only 3 mths old..He was over vaccinated/wormed since he was 2 weeks. Forget about going near someone he doesn't know, and heck, if WE try to catch him and he even thinks we're trying to 'catch' him, he's gone..He's much better than he was, loves other dogs/cats, and is very mushy with us when it suits him, but this was NOT lack of socialization, this is pure genetics, and hey I'm really not complaining, because he IS a rescue and he'll live here for the rest of his life, he needed a home, he has his quirks and is what he is..It's just sad that he is the way he is..


This sounds similar to what we experienced but the dog was over a year old. She didn't know basic commands and didn't seem to know anything about walking on a leash. She was SO AFRAID. It was painful to watch.

I think the situation has really stayed with me for a couple of reasons. 

1) I felt horribly guilty taking the dog back. I mean obviously she is a living breathing creature and I know we would have been good for her.

2). I felt unsettled as I had just begun to venture into the dog breeding world, which can be extremely overwhelming to an outsider. I had done my research, been extremely communicative and open about my life and what I was looking for in a dog and yet, the dog was not at all what I expected. Of course I would have liked for the breeder to tell me the dog had some issue and if I'm going to be honest, reduce the price and give me the option of taking her or not. BUT, I know that is only my perspective. Obviously the breeder has a different perspective.

The whole situation just made me wonder what do most breeders do in this situation. I mean, it must happen to the best of the breeders (I assume?). After all, genetics aren't 100% predictable.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Good breeders can see a dog's temperament by 7 weeks.

They can tell exactly what a dog is and what he isn't. 

If you find out who the good breeders are, you shouldn't have a problem and you won't get a disappointing dog.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> Good breeders can see a dog's temperament by 7 weeks.
> 
> They can tell exactly what a dog is and what he isn't.
> 
> If you find out who the good breeders are, you shouldn't have a problem and you won't get a disappointing dog.


I understand that. I am more wondering what happens when a breeder recognizes they have a nervous dog (or puppy)? Do they tell the potential buyer, hey I think this one is going to be nervous? Should they tell a buyer? I understand there could be some pitfalls with that idea too. If you think you have bought a nervous puppy, chances are you might create one.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

While again, I do think it was great the breeder refunded your money and took her back, I would "think" since the dog was over a year old, that she could have disclosed more information about her..However, since she only lived with the breeder, it sounds like the dog was most comfortable and probably normal acting 'there', vs being put in a home outside her comfort zone. So maybe the breeder "thought" she would be just fine elsewhere? 

I think there are alot of breeders who are going to be upfront about each of their puppies, and good breeders can "peg" those puppies when young, but then some are just in it for the money and won't disclose anything if they even 'know' it. Hopefully good breeders will place puppies in homes that will be good for that individual puppy, in other words, I (tho Im not a breeder) wouldn't put a high energy pushy puppy with someone wanting a more med / low energy biddable puppy..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GSDreSearching said:


> I understand that. I am more wondering what happens when a breeder recognizes they have a nervous dog (or puppy)? Do they tell the potential buyer, hey I think this one is going to be nervous? Should they tell a buyer? I understand there could be some pitfalls with that idea too. If you think you have bought a nervous puppy, chances are you might create one.


I can't answer the what happens but I can relate to the unexpected "afraid off everything dog??"

And yes you should have been told! Your expectations would have been different! And a week is not enough time. That is how long I gave the Chi I was thinking off taking.

He was afraid of "everything" had no seen a leash in life (Got that solved quick!) But beyond that nothing! Gave him a week no change ...screw this don't care that much back he goes!

Not my greatest moment. 

But I was sandbagged that is not how he acted at home?? So I was ill prepared to deal with it??

It takes yet again a very specific skill set to deal with "fearful" dogs! I would say that by and large just a butt load more patience then the unwary are expecting??


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> Good breeders can see a dog's temperament by 7 weeks.
> 
> They can tell exactly what a dog is and what he isn't.
> 
> If you find out who the good breeders are, you shouldn't have a problem and you won't get a disappointing dog.


A well respected breeder is breeding sound temperament which to me means they are not afraid of everything. A reputable breeder knows their dogs whether they are kenneled outside or not. A reputable breeder should not have "kennel" dogs who have never left the property, or been exposed to life outside of the kennel/home. 

I could take any of my breeders dog's home and they would not be afraid of "everything" in fact I think I'd be hard pressed to find something that may scare them. This is an adult GSD sold for top dollar, new home or not, the only thing that should take time is your bond IMO. A rescue dog is a totally different situation where you must accept a questionable background and breeding. 

I 2nd what Sunflower says above, a good breeder knows their dogs and offspring.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I still don't think anyone is really answering the OP's question. And I am also curious of the answer. 

Hypothetical: You are an excellent well respected breeder. You do everything right. You breed for the best temperament and health. You have a litter and get that one in hundred (or thousand) pup that just isn't up to breed standard for temperament. What do you do with this pup? Do you euthanize it? Give it away with disclosure? Give it away without disclosure? Sell it for a reduced price? Keep it and deal with what you produced? 

^^^ This is what I think the OP is curious about. OP correct me if I'm wrong.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Springbrz said:


> I still don't think anyone is really answering the OP's question. And I am also curious of the answer.
> 
> Hypothetical: You are an excellent well respected breeder. You do everything right. You breed for the best temperament and health. You have a litter and get that one in hundred (or thousand) pup that just isn't up to breed standard for temperament. What do you do with this pup? Do you euthanize it? Give it away with disclosure? Give it away without disclosure? Sell it for a reduced price? Keep it and deal with what you produced?
> 
> ^^^ This is what I think the OP is curious about. OP correct me if I'm wrong.


This is exactly what I'm wondering about! Clearly you worded it much more concisely than I did.  

Based on some of the responses I think there is a presumption that good breeders don't end up with puppies like what I've described. I didn't think that would be true but maybe it is?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't think any of us can answer this.
Breeders are people.
It depends on the person.
Some will rehome, some will keep the dog, some will euthanize.
I don't see why this matters.
Don't beat yourself up for not wanting to deal with a dog like that. This was a purchase, not a rescue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Breeders generally have more dogs than the average pet home. Yes, they can know a lot about the temperament of a dog by seven weeks -- not everything. The dog at seven weeks old is with his dam and littermates all the time. Once the pup leaves the dam and littermates, it has to sink or swim. And, final temperament is not there. At 7-8 weeks old puppies in general are very happy to go up to everyone. at around 4-5 months old, some will generally be a little more hesitant toward complete strangers. You do not know which ones will be more like this at 7 weeks. Sorry.

But, by considering the sire and dam and siblings, you can have a good idea of how a pup will respond.

Now take that pup and put it in a kennel where the schedule is pretty fixed and then take that dog and home it at 1 year old. It might take that dog a few more days, maybe weeks to adjust to family life than a 7 week old puppy. The dog has lost a crucial period -- young dog socialization, even if the breeder took it to the vet and classes, it did not live in a family in the house, and it is likely to have some adjustment period, even if it is a dog with good genetics and decent nerves. It will improve and not be a total weenie for the rest of its life. 

Breeders can provide a home for the dogs that don't make it out in the world, that have bad nerves. This means that when you add these dogs to the retired breeding stock, and the up and coming dogs and bitches, and the ones that have a structural issue or a digestive issue, that they are not euthanizing, but aren't trying to sell either, the breeder will generally have more dogs than is good for them or the dogs. It becomes a vicious cycle. The dogs could be fine in a home, but the breeder is then attached to them too. The breeder would do better to euthanize. But it is not the dog's fault, and, it is one thing to have a biter, it is another thing to have a dog with weak nerves who is not aggressive. 

Being afraid of things is not necessarily weak nerves. Look at how the dog recovers from something that frightened her. Look at how she reacts. If she snaps or bites that is not good. If she tucks her tail and pees, that is a little extreme but probably not dangerous. if she tucks her ears and flinches, but then moves forward to investigate -- that is not bad, she recovered, and likely, as she experiences more and more ordinary living she will have fewer and fewer reactions. 

We want purebred dogs. But we sometimes don't accept that if we want people to breed dogs, that sometimes there will be dogs living with breeders who would do better living in a family of their own. These dogs can go and live in families, but it might take more than a week for them to come out of their shell. Remember that lots of times breeders are pretty darn sure of themselves, and that dog has known the breeder since she was born. She can walk out with the breeder and go into the jaws of the veterinarians office with never a shrink or shudder WITH HER BREEDER. Because the breeder is confident, and the dog trusts her. 3 years later going into a new situation with people she never met before means her world has turned upside down. She does not know and trust this new person, nor does the new person have the confidence or trust in her. 

So we can have a good dog just in a new situation. The breeder does not see anything amiss in the dog, and the dog just needs to settle and learn her new situation. And different breeders have different levels of interaction with the outside world. 

still, some dogs with much attention to socialization will be more weenie than other dogs with less. So it is also individual. The dog will still fully trust the breeder though.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> We want purebred dogs. But we sometimes don't accept that if we want people to breed dogs, that sometimes there will be dogs living with breeders who would do better living in a family of their own. These dogs can go and live in families, but it might take more than a week for them to come out of their shell. Remember that lots of times breeders are pretty darn sure of themselves, and that dog has known the breeder since she was born. She can walk out with the breeder and go into the jaws of the veterinarians office with never a shrink or shudder WITH HER BREEDER. Because the breeder is confident, and the dog trusts her. 3 years later going into a new situation with people she never met before means her world has turned upside down. She does not know and trust this new person, nor does the new person have the confidence or trust in her.


Thanks Selzer - I always enjoy your posts! This part really resonated with me and is the reason I debated for weeks (and still even sometimes think about) contacting the breeder and asking her if we could work something out where the dog would live with us. I guess at the end of the day I just couldn't justify paying that much money and not getting the "standard" (which made me feel awful. It is really hard to put a price tag on a dog). I don't know, I feel like the dog would have benefitted HUGELY from being in a regular home (but with that said, I do think her issues went beyond a lack of socialization).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Then explain to me how some shelter dogs can go through heck and still be just fine?
Isn't this good nerves?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If I was a breeder and someone returned the dog and wanted it back the answer would be no-I would refund the dog but if it came back to me I would either keep the dog or really focus on finding a home that would be committed to the dog


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Then explain to me how some shelter dogs can go through heck and still be just fine?
> Isn't this good nerves?


I had a shelter dog-have no idea what she went through but when she came to my house she was not just fine-she was emaciated and it took her a long time to become comfortable-but when she did she was an awesome dog-and I wouldn't say she had nerve issues

There are dogs who go through heck and are just fine


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> Breeders generally have more dogs than the average pet home. Yes, they can know a lot about the temperament of a dog by seven weeks -- not everything. The dog at seven weeks old is with his dam and littermates all the time. Once the pup leaves the dam and littermates, it has to sink or swim. And, final temperament is not there. At 7-8 weeks old puppies in general are very happy to go up to everyone. at around 4-5 months old, some will generally be a little more hesitant toward complete strangers. You do not know which ones will be more like this at 7 weeks. Sorry.
> 
> But, by considering the sire and dam and siblings, you can have a good idea of how a pup will respond.
> 
> ...


That may be true for newer or less established breeders. I believe well established breeders can and do predict the temperament. If it's a new breeding introducing new lines into an established breeding program, a reputable breeder IMO would disclose what they expect or are hoping to see. 
I do not believe a well bred GSD with good temperament should be afraid as an adult...period. I would not consider purchasing for top dollar if that is what they displayed. 

The Canadian Kennel Club breed standard states the GSD should be fearless and self confident. The GSD must not be timid or nervous nor react to sights on sounds.

How can you say being afraid of everything does not reflect temperament?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

holland said:


> I had a shelter dog-have no idea what she went through but when she came to my house she was not just fine-she was emaciated and it took her a long time to become comfortable-but when she did she was an awesome dog-and I wouldn't say she had nerve issues
> 
> There are dogs who go through heck and are just fine


We aren't talking about rescue dogs here. We are talking about an adult GSD of which the OP paid top dollar and expected a dog that represents what a GSD should behave like and be. I too would have been disappointed and having owned a nervous dog in the past, I too would have returned.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> That may be true for newer or less established breeders. I believe well established breeders can and do predict the temperament. If it's a new breeding introducing new lines into an established breeding program, a reputable breeder IMO would disclose what they expect or are hoping to see.
> I do not believe a well bred GSD with good temperament should be afraid as an adult...period. I would not consider purchasing for top dollar if that is what they displayed.
> 
> The Canadian Kennel Club breed standard states the GSD should be fearless and self confident. The GSD must not be timid or nervous nor react to sights on sounds.
> ...


MWDs will bite people when they come up to them. Sometimes they bite their own handlers. They come home from war, and are sometimes very afraid and unsuitable for duty. I suppose they had weak nerves. Maybe some things are terrifying. And some situations are, with respect to what the dog is accustomed to. 

I am sorry, but nothing is fearless. Nothing. Lots of working line dogs must be muzzled at the vet. Why? Because the vet is a scarey place and having someone like the vet poking you or listening to your heart, digging in your ears is scarey. But no one counts that as bad nerves for a working line dog. My dogs are fine with vets and vet techs and groomers. That does not mean they have good nerves. It does not mean they have bad nerves. It means they are not freaked out when I hand them off to others. And yet. Lots of dogs have these issues, and no one says -- go back to your breeder the dog sucks. Sorry. But I think we are often to quick to say weak nerves in a lot of situations. If WLs do it, it is aggression or individuality, or God knows what. 

I know a long time breeder and AKC conformation judge. She says that temperament is the first thing she looks for. Then she says, if it is a night like tonight (thunder and lightning), she would take that into consideration. What does this mean? Dogs that show fearful behavior during storms are perfectly ok? Or, that her lines have a weakness in this area. 

If your dog shakes when it is thundering or there is lightning -- send it back to the breeder because it sucks. Really, weak nerves. But most people just deal with this issue. Plenty of dogs in Canada probably have this issue too. And it probably indicates weaknesses in other areas too. But whatever. 

Lots of shelter dogs are just fine because they did live in a family situation until they got big and not so much fun anymore. Then they were put in the back yard on a chain until the neighbors started complaining, and then they were dumped. Different story than for a dog that spent from 0 to 12 months in a kennel 24/7, save for a few excursions to the vet. That dog never lived in the house save maybe for the first couple of weeks or months. But they missed on on a lot of the formative period, between two months and 12 months.

The dog at 12 months is afraid of all the new stuff it is seeing. But it was only given a week. It was shell shocked. I'm sorry, but some dogs would be fine within a few days, others might take a few weeks. For a dog that was seriously abused it might take longer, even with good nerves.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Saphire said:


> We aren't talking about rescue dogs here. We are talking about an adult GSD of which the OP paid top dollar and expected a dog that represents what a GSD should behave like and be. I too would have been disappointed and having owned a nervous dog in the past, I too would have returned.


Just to be clear it wasn't a GSD, it was a different breed. However, everything else you mentioned is the same.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Saphire said:


> holland said:
> 
> 
> > I had a shelter dog-have no idea what she went through but when she came to my house she was not just fine-she was emaciated and it took her a long time to become comfortable-but when she did she was an awesome dog-and I wouldn't say she had nerve issues
> ...


It wasn't a GSD. It was a breed she won't state. And to be honest, without knowing the breed it's hard to tell what to expect. 

There are spaniels, sight hounds, other breeds that I don't expect to be overly bold in a new situation. 

Not all breeds are bred to be fearless.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> MWDs will bite people when they come up to them. Sometimes they bite their own handlers. They come home from war, and are sometimes very afraid and unsuitable for duty. I suppose they had weak nerves. Maybe some things are terrifying. And some situations are, with respect to what the dog is accustomed to.
> 
> I am sorry, but nothing is fearless. Nothing. Lots of working line dogs must be muzzled at the vet. Why? Because the vet is a scarey place and having someone like the vet poking you or listening to your heart, digging in your ears is scarey. But no one counts that as bad nerves for a working line dog. My dogs are fine with vets and vet techs and groomers. That does not mean they have good nerves. It does not mean they have bad nerves. It means they are not freaked out when I hand them off to others. And yet. Lots of dogs have these issues, and no one says -- go back to your breeder the dog sucks. Sorry. But I think we are often to quick to say weak nerves in a lot of situations. If WLs do it, it is aggression or individuality, or God knows what.
> 
> ...


I think that's a cop out IMO.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

GSDreSearching said:


> Just to be clear it wasn't a GSD, it was a different breed. But everything else is the same, top dollar (maybe more expensive than a GSD actually).


Ok s me theory applies. Unless the breed calls for a nervous dog afraid of everything, it should not be seen in an adult coming from a reputable breeder without a very clear heads up to the buyer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> I think that's a cop out IMO.


 Ok, fine. 

Then why is everyone so big on socializing puppies? Really??? To the firemen and the fire trucks and the vet and the police department and the school kids, and the whatever. We go on and on and on for days about how important socialization is. 

Well, it either is or it isn't. 

The dog is who it is. 

I guess you should be able to keep the thing for three years in a 10 x 15 kennel and take it out and throw it into a home with people it never saw before it and it shouldn't even hiccup twice.

Good luck on that. 

Personally, I think socialization is over talked about and over done. A dog is who he or she is, and if the dog has good temperament it does not need to meet the firemen and the fire trucks and the garbage men, and the UPS man, and the pizza delivery man, and ride on a subway. 

Heck, we shouldn't have to accustom our dogs to a muzzle. Just put the **** thing on if you need it, with no fan fare, a dog with good nerve will be fine with it. 

As with most things. Dog trusts you. You can take it to the vet and they can do what they need to do and the dog doesn't eat anyone. Easy peasy. 

Walking down the street, and a hoard of motorcycles comes by. Dog NEVER saw a motorcycle, he sits quietly at your side, no probem, easy peasy. Dog has good nerves. Does not need to be socialized to motorcycles. Maybe to horses. Not to motorcycles. or fire trucks. or parades or fireworks or gunshots.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have no idea what the breed is. A friend has adopted several Poms from a breeder after she was done breeding. The first one was outgoing and a lovely dog, which unfortunately, was stolen they think by a neighbor and then sold.

They got another one that also had a good temperament with strangers but was shy sometimes and liked to hide, so they werne't always sure where she was in their house. They didn't realize the dog got into the yard, fell into some water and drowned.

The breeder sold them a third dog who was scared of her own shadow and preferred living in a crate, except when the woman was home alone, then she slept in the woman's lap. They loved that dog and kept her until she passed away at an old age.

All three were from the same home, same treatment, same socialization and they were all completely different. They were also miles different from my GSDs.

We are so used to GSDs we don't always understand breed differences.

To the OP, she may end up keeping the dog. The fact that she took her back so quickly tells me she wasn't surprised. It's not your problem. She might sell the dog to another home. I don't know of a reliable breeder that would euthanize or dump a dog into a shelter or rescue, so assume the dog will remain with her unless it's succesfully rehomed.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> Ok, fine.
> 
> Then why is everyone so big on socializing puppies? Really??? To the firemen and the fire trucks and the vet and the police department and the school kids, and the whatever. We go on and on and on for days about how important socialization is.
> 
> ...


Not everyone is inclined to take puppy everywhere fro the purpose of socializing. There was a fantastic thread here about early socialization. Went into much detail about the role of genetics.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It's both Saphire. I went to a very excellent private trainer with a disturbed dog we were fostering so I could learn to be a better trainer myself. He said that there are dogs who aren't fazed by anything, but without proper socialization, they aren't going to be the best they can be. Why not do both? Try for the best breeding you can get, or the most well adjusted rescue, and then work on socializing too? It seems unfair to the dog to say we want a dog but we don't want to put the effort in to allow them to learn to be comfortable in many situations. The trainer told me that he regrets people pay for his advice and then don't follow it, then come back a few years later with a dog who had been well adjusted but bites the postal carrier.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's both Saphire. I went to a very excellent private trainer with a disturbed dog we were fostering so I could learn to be a better trainer myself. He said that there are dogs who aren't fazed by anything, but without proper socialization, they aren't going to be the best they can be. Why not do both? Try for the best breeding you can get, or the most well adjusted rescue, and then work on socializing too? It seems unfair to the dog to say we want a dog but we don't want to put the effort in to allow them to learn to be comfortable in many situations. The trainer told me that he regrets people pay for his advice and then don't follow it, then come back a few years later with a dog who had been well adjusted but bites the postal carrier.


Sorry but I don't believe all dogs need a lot of socializing to reach their full potential or be a good dog. Good breeding and temperament allows this.

A dog that needs socializing to learn to not be fearful is showing a weakness that I believe is genetic.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Saphire said:


> We aren't talking about rescue dogs here. We are talking about an adult GSD of which the OP paid top dollar and expected a dog that represents what a GSD should behave like and be. I too would have been disappointed and having owned a nervous dog in the past, I too would have returned.


 I understand we aren't talking about a rescue dog-she wasn't happy with the dog returned it got her money back - and she started this thread because she is concerned about the dog and is now thinking she wants the dog back-seriously I hope the dog finds a good home -


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

oh and she'd take the dog -she just doesn't want to pay money for it-these days you pay money for rescue dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that the breeder may not give her the dog back, but if she did take the dog back, then she should expect it to take a couple of weeks for the dog to settle in. No, the dog should not be afraid of everything. But a dog that hasn't experienced anything, should not be expected to go into a completely different situation and be 100% within a few days.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

holland said:


> oh and she'd take the dog -she just doesn't want to pay money for it-these days you pay money for rescue dogs


Good luck on that. Only buyers are allowed to be concerned about money. It's a lose-lose situation for the breeder. Even if she gives the dog to this person, she will chronicle her pains with the dog, and the breeder will suck in everyone's eyes. The buyer will still bother the breeder with questions and frustrations. I dunno. The breeder is better off keeping the dog, even if maybe it would be better in the home.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, I'm not going to argue with you because we obviously have different experiences on socialization. I respect the trainer we researched and decided to pay money to, and his experience having trained thousands of dogs is that those who aren't socialized don't do as well as those who have been. They might not all need the same level, but they need to be introduced to people and other dogs. His experience is that most people don't introduce their dogs to other dogs, and it shows.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, I'm not going to argue with you because we obviously have different experiences on socialization. I respect the trainer we researched and decided to pay money to, and his experience having trained thousands of dogs is that those who aren't socialized don't do as well as those who have been. They might not all need the same level, but they need to be introduced to people and other dogs. His experience is that most people don't introduce their dogs to other dogs, and it shows.


I think you meant me not Selzer.
We all do what we feel is right and works for us. You absolutely should continue doing what works for you.
I would also hang onto a trainer that has successfully trained thousands of dogs. That's a crazy accomplishment!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP - bottom line: let it be. It would be just too nervy to ask to be given the dog. You made your decision.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, I'm not going to argue with you because we obviously have different experiences on socialization. I respect the trainer we researched and decided to pay money to, and his experience having trained thousands of dogs is that those who aren't socialized don't do as well as those who have been. They might not all need the same level, but they need to be introduced to people and other dogs. *His experience is that most people don't introduce their dogs to other dogs, and it shows.*


That is a very interesting statement. As somebody that frequents parks and dogs parks and allows my dogs to freely interact with other dogs, I can say that I don't have problems with leash reactivity with my dogs, pulling and lunging to other dogs, rushing to meet new dogs, disobedience around other dogs and other dog to dog problems attributed to my dogs when they encounter dogs such as the ones we see posted so frequently on here. 

I understand some people work their dogs in various venues where they prefer to have their dogs ignore other dogs, but my goal is a dog friendly dog without issues when meeting and greeting, and exposure / socializing with other dogs has always worked well for me.

There is an old saying at one of the bigger parks I go to among us that have been walking our dogs there for years, when you see a leashed dog, 9 out of 10 times you see an owner problem.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDreSearching said:


> I have a question that will require a bit of back story. This is non-GSD related really but I wanted to get a general perspective from people with experience. I hope I'm posting in the right place.
> 
> Earlier this year my husband and I decided we were ready to add another dog to our life (our GSD passed away last year). I had researched another breed and thought we would enjoy having this particular breed. So I did lots of research and found good breeders (everyone I contacted was highly recommended). I ended up connecting with a breeder that had an adult available. I was VERY excited because we wanted an adult and I knew it was going to be a bit of a challenge to find an adult from a well respected breeder that would also be a good fit for our household. So we get the dog and she was SUPER sweet, but she was also what I would consider a complete mess. She was afraid of EVERYTHING and would hardly leave her crate. She had been with the breeder her whole life and I think (although I'm not certain) that she must have spent the majority of life living in an outdoor kennel. Anyway we had her for a week and I contacted the breeder and told her she wasn't the right fit for us. That she was way too nervous and afraid of everything to be the type of dog we were looking for. The breeder took her back and happily refunded our money with no questions asked.
> 
> ...


I guess the short answer to your question is usually nothing good.

I took a 2 year old Sheltie from a breeder, he hid under my bed for a week. Beyond the usual Sheltie edge, this dog was afraid of everything. Several months later when I finally admitted he was a bad match for me I returned him. The breeder euthanized him. I was devastated.
When Bud was first seized by his breeder he was supposed to be euthanized. Bit different, he had been abused and was injured and so aggressive he could barely be handled. As a breeder his goal was to not stress the dog further and not risk one of his dogs injuring someone. It took weeks to get near him, months to be able to actually work him.
I am unclear why a breeder would charge more for an older dog, and to be honest I am not sure you gave the dog a fair chance.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Great thread

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400690


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

While socializing puppies is great, I can honestly say I don't socialize my puppies , when I have one, that much, YES they are exposed to alot of things, LIFE mostly, and I've never had an issue with my german shepherds going with the flow the rest of their lives. 

I DO believe if they are sound to begin with, that isn't going anywhere no matter a rescue or breeder dog. 

Sure I do think a dog or puppy needs some time to adjust to a new home, however, they will be what they be. Some dogs just cannot adjust and don't.

This rescue (non gsd) that I have, is ALWAYS going to be a weirdo..Sure he's better now at 7mths of age, but, he's not going to be rock solid "I can walk into anything" type of dog..My other mini aussie is just that, take me anywhere, put me into anything, I'm ok with it, as well as my gsd(s)..

I'm not against socializing puppies, however, I think most of it has to do with the make up of the dog which will determine how it reacts the rest of its life..


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Thanks for all of the conversation everyone. I really enjoy this forum, I feel like I always learn or see a new perspective. 


My apologies, I didn't make myself clear in some of my later posts, I am NOT going to see about getting the dog back. We did think about it seriously for a couple of weeks after we returned her but at the end of the day I don't have the capacity for more than two dogs. I knew she wasn't the type of dog that I really wanted. That is what lead me back to german shepherds and we are getting a puppy in mid-November. We already have a (awesome!:wub sheltie, so that is my limit. Now, if I had a farm and I didn't work and I had money trees growing on that farm, I would have a different perspective. 

I don't think about this situation every day or anything but I had read a post with a poll on here yesterday about nervous dogs and it made me think about that situation. I was curious to have different perspectives on what breeders generally do if they have a dog or puppy that isn't the breed standard. 

As one poster said, there isn't really one answer. I guess, in general, different people will handle it in different ways. 

Anyway I appreciate the conversation and it gave me some different things to think about. Thanks!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> While socializing puppies is great, I can honestly say I don't socialize my puppies , when I have one, that much, YES they are exposed to alot of things, LIFE mostly, and I've never had an issue with my german shepherds going with the flow the rest of their lives.
> 
> I DO believe if they are sound to begin with, that isn't going anywhere no matter a rescue or breeder dog.
> 
> ...


 Totally agree with this. Bud was horrifically abused for the first year of his life, with careful work he became a solid dog.

Shadow has never been anything but adored, she is a blithering mess half the time and only careful management offers her a life at all.

Training can overcome a lot, it cannot undo genetics.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Bottom line is, it depends on the breeder -- what happens to the dog. 

I had a dog returned to me. They had a couple of kids and the 12 year old would tease the dog by trying to get the dog to lunge toward him. The younger child had the dog sleeping in her room. Or rather, Trainer #2 told them not to crate the puppy in the kitchen, to take it to the bedroom. So they tied it to a line above the window above the bed -- hard to picture this, I know. (Trainer #1 thought the dog needed to be socialized to other dogs so she through the puppy (10 weeks old) in with her three adult dogs for several days). Anyhow, at just under six months old the pup had gotten tangled in the lead and fell off the bed and hurt her elbow very badly. They x-rayed and said elbow dysplasia. Their vet used x-ray eyes and felt she had hip dysplasia in both hips too. The mother admitted the boy was teasing the dog and was now a bit afraid of her. Great. I came and got the dog and the x-rays. The elbow was completely swelled up. I took her and the x-rays to my vet -- no problems here. She felt we should wait and see on the elbow.

I asked the lady if she thought is wasn't hip/elbow dysplasia would she keep the dog? She said yes.

I took her home. 

This was a broken dog. She did not want anything to do with me. Not violent, not viscious, just only interested in dogs. And she needed to heal. 

I left her be for 6 months. I did nothing in way of training, socializing, pushing myself on her. I fed her, and talked to her while cleaning her kennel, but beyond that, I let her alone. 

Dolly will be six in March. She has had no further problems with hips or elbows. She is intact, but has never been bred. I have taken her to classes and she passed her CGC test. She is excellent with my nieces, and is fine every time I take her anywhere. She is very affectionate with me. She has good temperament. But the first few weeks back with me, she had to regroup. That is not an indicator of bad temperament. It can be an indicator of needing to get used to trusting people again when you have discovered that some people are not trustworthy. This dog is not reactive with other dogs or people, she is not afraid of loud noises, fireworks, guns, storms. She is an overall good representative of the breed. Strangers can handle her for grooming and for vet care. 

Sometimes a dog needs a few weeks to adjust.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is a very interesting statement. As somebody that frequents parks and dogs parks and allows my dogs to freely interact with other dogs, I can say that I don't have problems with leash reactivity with my dogs, pulling and lunging to other dogs, rushing to meet new dogs, disobedience around other dogs and other dog to dog problems attributed to my dogs when they encounter dogs such as the ones we see posted so frequently on here.


Sigh .... and my dogs don't do "Dog Parks" don't socialize with other dogs and I can say the exact same thing! 

My dogs are at "Zero" risk for a bad "Dog Park" encounter and I advise others to do the as do many "Pro trainers."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Bottom line is, it depends on the breeder -- what happens to the dog.
> 
> I had a dog returned to me. They had a couple of kids and the 12 year old would tease the dog by trying to get the dog to lunge toward him. The younger child had the dog sleeping in her room. Or rather, Trainer #2 told them not to crate the puppy in the kitchen, to take it to the bedroom. So they tied it to a line above the window above the bed -- hard to picture this, I know. (Trainer #1 thought the dog needed to be socialized to other dogs so she through the puppy (10 weeks old) in with her three adult dogs for several days). Anyhow, at just under six months old the pup had gotten tangled in the lead and fell off the bed and hurt her elbow very badly. They x-rayed and said elbow dysplasia. Their vet used x-ray eyes and felt she had hip dysplasia in both hips too. The mother admitted the boy was teasing the dog and was now a bit afraid of her. Great. I came and got the dog and the x-rays. The elbow was completely swelled up. I took her and the x-rays to my vet -- no problems here. She felt we should wait and see on the elbow.
> 
> ...


Glad you got her back! Were you able to learn anything to prevent a situation such as that from happening?? 

I don't think I could be a breeder myself ...no one would be good enough for my puppies!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Glad you got her back! Were you able to learn anything to prevent a situation such as that from happening??
> 
> I don't think I could be a breeder myself ...no one would be good enough for my puppies!


Maybe. 

Maybe I learned to always trust my gut. 

I brought Bear and Dolly for these people to see. Bear was the most confident of the three females, Dolly had the most drive (she's the one that, at 7 weeks old, got the bone with rope from her litter of 7, and rushed off through the tunnel. She then defended her bone/rope sometimes against 2-3 puppies pulling on the other end, and 45 minutes later she still had possession.) 

When I met with the folks, they had both children with them. I let the puppies out and watched. And watched. My gut was saying, sell them Bear. I started suggesting Bear. The more I did they gravitated toward Dolly. Bear is black and tan, Dolly is black and red. I suggested. I strongly suggested. I gave them all the reasons. I told them that Dolly had more drive. I told them that Bear is more confident and people oriented. They were certain that Dolly was it. I felt pretty certain that Bear would be the better choice. 

But then, if I insisted on Bear, that might start off their relationship with the dog they felt was the lesser. I gave in. I did not feel warm and fuzzy about the situation, but I couldn't put my finger on it. 

Sometimes it isn't going to work out. This person I met and talked to for a little over an hour. Another person I talked to several times over the course of a year. At the beginning of that year she was on my no way in Hades list. After the year, the progress she seemed to have made, I felt she was probably going to make a suitable home. She did exactly what she was going to do in the beginning before a year of coaching. I got the dog back. 

It isn't going to be 100%. Some people are not going to make it through the puppy stage. Others are going to have life changes and might need to give you the dog back at some point down the line. Of course, I feel pretty confident with people who have owned GSDs before. But I can't require it. And some of my first-time owners do fine. 

I should've trusted my gut in both cases. But, then again, my gut has been wrong before. The lady with the parots picked Helga and I thought she would be back with me before the week was out. She called me a few times. But the dog is now nearly four, she is doing fine. 

Then there was the guy buying a puppy for his teenage son. The kid wanted beagle/dachsund. The guy wanted a GSD for him. 11 days later I got the dog back. The pup was chasing his kitty. I turned her around and sold her to a police officer in Southern Ohio with no negative comments whatsoever. But I should've trusted my gut there.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Maybe I learned to always trust my gut.
> 
> ...


Your comments re-inforce the concept to trust your breeder. As a first time GSD owner, I was worried about too much dog and the breeder picked my boy for me because she thought he would be "easier." I have had to learn a lot more handler skills because he turned out to be a lot of dog. I feel much more confident handling him since we joined a Schutzhund club and I've gotten good training guidance The trainer said he is not a "***** cat," he will stay with me on the field and not run away.

But, I really do believe my breeder matched us well and Simon turned out to be my heart dog. I've been blessed throughout my life with some very good dogs. But Simon is special and we share an incredible bond that I did not know was possible. I try to appreciate our time together every day, as our dogs' lives are way too short.


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