# Confusing behavior (is this fearful behavior?)



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Today Knuckles confused me. He is very fearful of everything it seems... he is jumpy & barks/growls at people when they come over until he figures out who they are (we don't have strangers come to our house, everyone is familiar to him now). I have been saying for awhile now that I am going to accept him for what he is - a fearful dog - and deal with situations as they arise (not pushing him into things, making sure he's safe, etc). His mom was skitish & his father is afraid of gunshots, but other than that he's pretty confident. I am assuming genetically Knuckles is fearful. 

Today we went to my parents house (he's as comfortable there as he is at home - knows where Grandpa keeps the dog treats even!) and while we were there an old family friend stopped by. Whoa boy, this is the first time he's had to deal with a stranger-stranger. This guy is very loud, has a barrel laugh (hope you know what I mean by that). He's not scary or anything, but he's different than your average person. When he walked in Knuckles looked at him and got up and walked behind me and he paced a little bit for maybe a minute, then he laid down by Grandpa's feet and went to sleep. We sat there for about 45 minutes, him sleeping almost the entire time. He never made ANY attempt to go near this guy, didn't even seem the least bit interested, but any time this guy spoke loud or laughed Knuckles would look up and then lay back down like "oh, you're still here?". 

When we left (before the guy), we had to walk past him. I had put Knuckles in a sit while I was putting my shoes on. Then Knuckles let out a small growl. The guy made no attempt to touch him, but was standing towards him, talking to him/saying goobye to me.

So can someone break this down for me? Was he afraid or not? His behavior was so confusing.


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

Sounds fearful, and he was practicing avoidance instead of aggression. But not so over the top fearful yet that he couldn't lay down to sleep. Have you tried counter conditioning him with high value treats everytime he's around strangers?


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

This was the first time since he was a pup-pup (he's 5 months now) that he had close contact with a stranger. I didn't even think about the treats. 
Hopefully we have another chance soon (our circle of family/friends is pretty close, so everyone who is going to know, he knows... not many other people come around).


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> So can someone break this down for me? Was he afraid or not? His behavior was so confusing.


Not confusing at all. He was afraid of the stranger, but since the stranger didn't approach or directly threaten him, he went to a safe spot and ignored him--avoidance. Then when the stranger did come near he growled--he felt threatened as the distance between them disappeared.

I do think it's good that his first reaction was to get some distance between himself and the "threat", rather than act out aggressively. But when he felt cornered, he growled a warning. If the stranger had had a treat to give him, that would have been ideal. Next time this sort of situation arises, I'd do the same thing--allow dog and stranger to ignore each other at first, then after a while, have the stranger offer a treat (or toss it to him if he's uncomfortable taking it from hand).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kittilicious said:


> *This was the first time since he was a pup-pup (he's 5 months now) that he had close contact with a stranger.* I didn't even think about the treats.
> 
> Hopefully we have another chance soon (our circle of family/friends is pretty close, so everyone who is going to know, he knows... not many other people come around).


The part I put in bold would be a HUGE concern for me if I had a puppy that was fearful.

The WORST THING to do with a fearful dog is to cater to the fears rather than work thru them. Particularly right away with a puppy. 

Many fearful puppies become normal dogs, but not by avoiding everything they are INAPPROPRIATELY showing fear behaviors towards. Instead we need to show them they are guessing wrong, FOLLOW ME, the world is a truly wonderful place full of wonderful things (and usually a whole lot of wonderful pieces of chicken/liver/hotdogs...)

Fearful Scared Anxious Nervous and Timid Dogs

Fearful Dogs | Positive help for fearful, shy & anxious dogs


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The WORST THING to do with a fearful dog is to cater to the fears rather than work thru them. Particularly right away with a puppy.


True, but there's a delicate balance that must be struck... you want to help the pup get over his fears, but you don't want to push TOO hard. If a pup is constantly pushed over his threshold, it can actually make the problem worse. You do have to confront the fears in a way that the pup learns "Oh, is that all it is? That's not threatening at all!" rather than "Oh my god that is something scary and Mom is going to force me to approach it!" 

So socializing is especially important for a fearful dog, but it has to be done the right way. Go out in public and ask random passers-by to offer your dog a treat. Don't go to places where people will want to swarm your dog without asking if it's okay. Doggie socialization or obedience classes are a great way to go.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The part I put in bold would be a HUGE concern for me if I had a puppy that was fearful.
> 
> The WORST THING to do with a fearful dog is to cater to the fears rather than work thru them. Particularly right away with a puppy.
> 
> Many fearful puppies become normal dogs, but not by avoiding everything they are INAPPROPRIATELY showing fear behaviors towards. Instead we need to show them they are guessing wrong, FOLLOW ME, the world is a truly wonderful place full of wonderful things (and usually a whole lot of wonderful pieces of chicken/liver/hotdogs...)


I guess I don't see why you feel I am catering to the fears, I'm not. And I didn't really think he acted inappropriately in this situation, except for the growl when we went to leave. (which is why I posted this in the first place, I wasn't sure) We just have not been put in a situation yet where he had to deal with a stranger coming onto his territory, so to speak (my parents house is as much his house as our own). He's seen strangers on walks and on car rides (I take him to the store with me and he sits in the car). No, he hasn't been asked to meet strangers, but we aren't coming across many on walks during the winter and the soonest puppy class near me isn't until spring.
Anyone who would come to our house, he has been around since he was 5 weeks old, so they aren't strangers anymore. 



> Not confusing at all. He was afraid of the stranger, but since the stranger didn't approach or directly threaten him, he went to a safe spot and ignored him--avoidance.


Is the ignoring good or bad?


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

I think what the posters are trying to say, is that when you have a dog who is unsure/fearful about people, you have to create encounters frequently to reshape the way they view people. Frequent, controlled exposures. Now maybe you don't care if your dog is super friendly to every stranger, and that's okay. But you want your dog to get to a point where they base their reactions on your reactions or an actual threat; not a perceived threat (like a kid on a skateboard). I'm sure you just want your dog to be a safe dog to be around, and represent the breed well. So ideally, if this were my dog, I'd be sitting outside stores, libraries, post office, ect... several times a week (yes, even in the cold) and everytime someone passed close by or approached; high value treat time!! (chicken, hot dogs). Eventually you'll get to a point where the dog will see the people, then look to you for a treat. (association) So frequent exposures, in a low stress environment.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

My pup is 5mos. old and we take her somewhere almost everyday and do basically what Dakotasmom said. If you shelter your pup it will eventually make the fear worse. We don't have fear issues with our pup but getting her out is to help insure she stays unafraid.
It does have to be controlled though, so as freestep said not to overwhelm her.
We spend relatively short periods of time at stores or other places where the pup can watch and see that people and strange places aren't scary.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Is the ignoring good or bad?


Ignoring in and of itself isn't bad. The only bad thing is the fact that is afraid of strangers. The way he's handling it is good, in comparison to what he could be doing... acting aggressively, panicking, running away, etc. It's just important to be mindful of his true feelings. Even though he appears relaxed, he's still apprehensive about the stranger.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I guess I don't see why you feel I am catering to the fears, I'm not. And I didn't really think he acted inappropriately in this situation, except for the growl when we went to leave. (which is why I posted this in the first place, I wasn't sure) We just have not been put in a situation yet where he had to deal with a stranger coming onto his territory, so to speak (my parents house is as much his house as our own). He's seen strangers on walks and on car rides (I take him to the store with me and he sits in the car). No, he hasn't been asked to meet strangers, but we aren't coming across many on walks during the winter and the soonest puppy class near me isn't until spring.
> Anyone who would come to our house, he has been around since he was 5 weeks old, so they aren't strangers anymore.
> 
> 
> Is the ignoring good or bad?


I have a pup with a very similar temperament that I have, in the space of 2 months almost turned around. She is still wary of people she doesn't know coming into the house but we have made progress on that front too. Out and about - in the park, the woods etc she now actively seeks people out, whereas when she first used to go out she would back off or growl at anyone that approached her. I have done this by getting her out to places with people every single day and keeping her under her threshold but gradually moving her threshold forwards. Then when we could get close to people with her being relaxed and happy people who wanted to pet her I would explain she was shy and just ask them to drop her a treat. this advanced to her taking them from peoples hands if they held it out sideways and didn't look at her to the point now where she will go up wag her tail at people and sniff at them. She still doesn't like to be petted on the head by strangers but is happy for them to stroke her side or under her chin.

The point the other poster was making is that by not socialising her at this vital age and working hard on getting her used to strangers you are not helping her get over her fears. It is no fun having a large strong and fearful dog, you owe it to yourself and your dog to build her confidence and make her have a happy balanced life, as she can't spend her life not interacting with anyone.

My dog is still far from perfect in the house and I know I have a long way to go but I actively hunt out people she has never met coming to the house and when they do buiding her confidence and manners with them. 

I think you really need to do the same.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I guess my posts were sort of confusing. Knuckles is not sheltered by any sense of the word. No, we aren't seeing a lot of people on walks right now because of it being winter, but he comes with me almost every day in the car. We also go down to the school at least once a week so that he can sit & watch the kids walk home from school. Thats just a small part of the things we do. 
My OP was about him meeting a stranger *on his own territory, in his own home* (my dads home is just as his home as ours is). He hasn't had to deal with that yet - strangers coming into the house. Outside of our home, on walks, he does pretty good. A couple barks here & there, but we are working on that.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Ah ok. I understand what you are going through and it's not easy. The longer you leave it without him having to deal with it the harder it will be for him. Not as a lecture but as someone who has similar issues I really recommend you work hard on getting people to come over the house and training him to be comfortable and confident with it. Teaching him the correct responses and rewarding him for performing them over and over and over again will really help. 

From a personal perspective, because he is scared I would try and do it without corrections but by guiding him to success and when he does what you want going really over the top with praise and reward.


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## puppyluv (Nov 15, 2011)

I am going through this with my 5 month old puppy too! I didn't realize how anxious/fearful he was feeling until this week when someone came to the door to deliver groceries. I had previously made a habit of having new people greet him at our door with treats with no problem but it had been a while. Now I know that I need to step up our socialization again and how to go about it. I've been having him go around town with me too but not having close enough contact with new people. Thanks!!!!


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

puppyluv said:


> I am going through this with my 5 month old puppy too! I didn't realize how anxious/fearful he was feeling until this week when someone came to the door to deliver groceries. I had previously made a habit of having new people greet him at our door with treats with no problem but it had been a while. Now I know that I need to step up our socialization again and how to go about it. I've been having him go around town with me too but not having close enough contact with new people. Thanks!!!!


I really think there is a complete difference between socializing around town and in your own house. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. 
I'm testing the waters today. I put a "guinea pig" request out on Facebook yesterday for anyone who HASN'T met Knuckles to come over this wknd. We have one couple coming over today to meet him, so we'll see how he does. 
Its hard to socialize at home though, especially when you have a small selection of friends/family who visit.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kittilicious said:


> I really think there is a complete difference between socializing around town and in your own house. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.
> I'm testing the waters today. I put a "guinea pig" request out on Facebook yesterday for anyone who HASN'T met Knuckles to come over this wknd. We have one couple coming over today to meet him, so we'll see how he does.
> 
> *Its hard to socialize at home though, especially when you have a small selection of friends/family who visit*.


While at home is different, and it's great you are having more people coming over.

There IS a coorelation, especially for puppies, with people that you meet and greet OUTSIDE of the home.

And while it's great you are driving him to school to


> We also go down to the school at least once a week so that he can sit & watch the kids walk home from school.


 THAT is in no way the same as when people are up close in the home.

Once again, I recommend getting the baggy of treats out and going out among the masses WITH your puppy. Everyone doesn't have to pet him, but he needs to be comfortable with new people and know YOU are in charge and the leader and if you are calm then so will he.

He won't learn that far away and watching with you. He needs to be with you and close to the new stuff. NOT overwhelming. Not sending him over the edge. But among and with the 'new'. Close up LIKE IN YOU HOME WHEN PEOPLE COME OVER. 

Our pups learn (if we teach them) to look to us, watch us, get guidance from us, learn from us, react according to US. So we need to expose them to new stuff, guide them safely thru, so they learn 'HEY, Mom/Dad is in charge and knows what they are doing after all!' 

Sorry if I'm confusing with my recommendations. I also have few people ever coming to my house so realize THAT is not where I can socialize my pup. So what I do is become proactive with all the opportunities outside my home, and guess what? My dogs all do fine when people I want in the house come and visit. Here are some examples:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm a little concerned only because at 5 months old my boy was happy meeting anyone and everyone that was around. He never cowered and would be pulling towards people on the street to say hello. The older he got the less he did it, and would only greet people he already knew. I know that even at a young age he was never scarred of strangers in or out of the home. We've never tested him on a true stranger that comes into the house (and hope to never have to), but I do know he does feed off my energy very well and depending on how I feel he reacts accordingly. I've only once been "fearful" of a situation outside and he got all chesty and puffy.

I worry about the avoid and hide behavior because it might turn into aggression at one point. He's only 5 months old and is still unsure of himself (which he should be) but when he gets older he might decide to take things into his own paws. I know you said that you think he's genetically fearful, but I would really try to work him past these kinds of situations. At 5 months he shouldn't have a worry in his head and coming up to say hello to a lot of people. I'd expect a change in personality pretty soon so this might become an issue down the road.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I would also be very concerned that after 45 minutes in a room with someone who it sounds like was being totally neutral to him a 5 month old puppy would not be curious enough to at least try and smell the person.


The aloofness at such a young age combined with the fearful behaviour could cause some major issues as an adult unless you work through them now. Sorry I didn't notice are you participating in any classes right now?

Also you don't need to have the strangers give your puppy treats at first. I like to start out by just dropping treats on the ground around strangers (who are pretending the puppy isn't there) and see the puppies reaction. Is he comfortable enough to take food?

You can do this at home also. When people come over you can just drop treats then have the strangers drop treats. I would be curious how your puppy responds to this.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Clyde said:


> I would also be very concerned that after 45 minutes in a room with someone who it sounds like was being totally neutral to him a 5 month old puppy would not be curious enough to at least try and smell the person.


Yep, that was my main concern too. Every other puppy I know would have been all into trying to figure out who the guy was. Thats why I was/am confused.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Someone came over today he had never met. He barked and tried to act like a big bad dog and about a minute later he was licking her hand. During the barking he was pretty cautious, but not as scared as I figured he would be.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Someone came over today he had never met. He barked and tried to act like a big bad dog and about a minute later he was licking her hand. During the barking he was pretty cautious, but not as scared as I figured he would be.


Making sure that all encounters he has with strangers ends in a positive way is good. I am glad he recovered so quickly this time.

The fact that he was barking is one of the indicators that he was scared. The thing is the more a fearful dog practices these types of behaviours the more confident they will become in the display. But it is all rooted in insecurity even if they don't look scared.

I would have this person come over again and again to see how quickly his initial fear is over come each time. Also if you can have the other guy that was the initial reason for this post come over again and again that would be a great opportunity to practice. Keep practising with a variety of strangers until your puppy becomes comfortable with you inviting new people into your home.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

We had quite the interesting walk to the school corner today. I think I brought Knuckles along... there was this really cute sable dog in my house that I put the leash on and he acted like Knuckles, but somewhere from the front door to the road an alien intercepted my Knuckles for a lookalike. 

He walked perfect even though the Golden was walking off leash ahead of us (he usually wants to get up to her). He wasn't pulling on the leash or anything. We passed some kids and he didn't even bark. Hmmm strange. Then we stop at the corner and I see a friend of my oldest daughters who hasn't met Knuckles and I asked her if she wanted to help me (she knew what I was doing because Taryn texted her this wknd). She comes up and this dog that I thought was Knuckles was all tail wagging and face licking. HUH? Then another girl came up... same thing. 

This dog confuses me. 

He did do something new today - jumping. In all the face licking and petting, he kept wanting to jump up onto everyone. I guess I couldn't have a perfect day, he had to throw a wrench in the whole thing. LOL So now we continue the socialization and start working on all 4 paws on the ground.


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