# Intact Dogs (Speutering Myths?)



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

How tough, or how different, is it to live with an intact dog - more specifically, an intact male? Do they really go ballistic when they come across a female in heat? Do they really have a need to roam and become less obedient? I've never had a dog before, so I have no experience when it comes to this. 

I do plan to neuter my dog, but for several reasons, I would like to wait until he is around 18-24 months (1.5-2 years) old. I know that there is no "best" age to neuter/spay a dog, but from what I've read, I think I would prefer to wait instead of neutering him as a puppy. If that's an unreasonable age to neuter a dog, please tell me. 

I have heard a lot of things about neutering/spaying a dog, but am not sure what's fact and what's myth. I plan to talk to my pup's breeder about it when I pick him up, but until then, I would appreciate some input. Thanks


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The intact males we've had here have been more inclined to mark and typically don't get along as well with other males. Some have been more intent on roaming but not all. In a dog you raise from a puppy you may have better luck with teaching them not to mark than a dog coming into rescue as an intact adult. The health argument for neutering isn't nearly as strong as the health argument for spaying. I still think it's a good idea and will always have neutered males, but IMO it's not really the same as spaying either in terms of importance or benefit. 

Obviously you do need to make sure that your dog doesn't roam and contribute to pet overpopulation and should that situation arise a responsible person would help take responsibility for the resulting puppies. If that seems like too big a risk, people ought to neuter sooner rather than later.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for the quick reply. I know I'll have to be keeping a close eye on him to make sure no puppies result, and considering there will *just about* always be someone home to watch him, I think we can manage that. I am completely for spaying and neutering, I just want to wait until he's more physically mature.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

18-24 months is very reasonable, and will allow him a bit of time to mature, imho.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think it depends on the dog. My last foster, Peri, was neutered after I sprung him from the pound. He was about 2 years old. He was a MAJOR marker but got along fine with other male dogs. 

Rafi was neutered at about 18 months. He had not started lifting his leg yet. He was not a macho guy at all. I adopted him about 4 weeks after his neuter. 

My brother had an unneutered dog who was really full of himself. He often escaped and was gone for days. My brother did not do a good job of watching him. There were dogs in my neighborhood who looked like him.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

It's sad that your brother's dog (fur nephew?) contributed to this overpopulation problem. Was the dog well trained and a good overall dog? I'm hoping that if I raise him as a puppy not to roam and mark, it won't be so bad. But one thing's for sure - he will definitely be supervised all the time. There's no way he's going to be fathering any litters...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ReiDo they really go ballistic when they come across a female in heat


Well, put it this way-- on Mythbusters they did a show where they were trying to find a way to distract a trained (German Shepherd) guard dog so they could get past him and steal something. They tried many things to distract him but the one that worked the best was urine from a female in heat. In fact it was the only thing that was "confirmed" out of the 15 or so things they tried.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Oh. 

Oh boy. >.<


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I had Keefer neutered at 15 months old. He's never marked, and sometimes he lift his leg, sometimes he still squats to pee. He looks very masculine, with a massive blocky head - definitely all boy.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that - Keefer is such a handsome boy. In all honesty, I mostly would like to wait to neuter because I like a more masculine, grown out male (and also because of several articles I read on health effects of speutering young). 

How tough was it keeping Keefer away from bitches in heat?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ReiI'm glad to hear that - Keefer is such a handsome boy. In all honesty, I mostly would like to wait to neuter because I like a more masculine, grown out male (and also because of several articles I read on health effects of speutering young).
> 
> How tough was it keeping Keefer away from bitches in heat?


I forgot to add that Peri was in my care for 2 months before he was neutered (it took that long for the rescue to be able to get him in to the vet) and he was fine around other dogs of both sexes. I did have a few problems with neutered male dogs challenging him but not the other way around. 

And Rafi is not a "masculine" looking dog but he does look the way he's supposed to. My Basu was neutered at 6 months and had a big blocky head and a very stocky, class German line, gsd body. Unlike Rafi, no one ever mistook him for a female dog. In other words, I think the way your dog turns out looking has more to do with genetics than anything else.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I never had problems with Doerak looking for love. There was one intact female in my neighborhood and he liked sniffing her yard, but that's about it. I finally had him neutered when he started having prostrate trouble. BTW, I hardly ever had to leash my boy, he was always good and listened to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: ReiHow tough was it keeping Keefer away from bitches in heat?


I'm not sure he was ever around any, so I can't say. He never tried to escape from the yard, and at the park (what idiot would bring a bitch in heat to an off leash park anyway?!?!?) he's never been a humper to any gender. Although he does like to stand over Halo and air hump her, LOL! 

I did think that other male dogs were starting to act differently towards him as he matured, but HIS behavior never changed. I went ahead and neutered him because I wanted to make sure it didn't, and that he stayed the sweet social boy that he was.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I have a 9yo intact male. He is one of the best behaved dogs I have ever had. We will mark outside (but I really couldn't care less.) but NEVER in the house. I can also stop him from peeing on things outside just by telling him not to. He doesn't wander and gets along well with ALL other dogs and people no matter the age or sex. (Unless a strange male dog mounts him, then he just wants nothing to do with him, but he isn't aggressive.)


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## TMarie (Jul 6, 2006)

I have a 9 year old intact male. He has never marked in the house, but he will mark outside. He has been around female dogs in heat, but only while on leash, so he would ignore them. 

He was also around my female during two heat cycles before we had her spayed, and he was never interested in her,(although we always kept them separated) however, when my neighbors dogs go into heat, I always know, because then he will constantly bother my spayed females.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it depends on the dog. Now my intact dog is only 6 months, but I've seen other males at his age acting really rambunctious, distracted, trying to hump every dog and even people. IMO, the "problems" that people often associate with a dog being intact are usually just training/behavior. I think being intact makes certain dogs more likely to engage in these behaviors if they are already the sort of dog that will push the buttons of their owner, but I don't think that's the cause per se. My dog has always been more calm and collected, and less interested in constantly humping or dominating all the other dogs than some of the dogs we hang out with, even at this age.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks everyone, that's great to hear! I had thought that it would be a hopeless case and hear a few horror stories. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom He never tried to escape from the yard, and at the park (what idiot would bring a bitch in heat to an off leash park anyway?!?!?)


Oh, I have definitely met my share of idiots. Unfortunately, I don't think I can trust the people here to be responsible enough as to not bring a bitch in heat to a dog park. However, I will be avoiding dog parks until my pup is much older. Fortunately, almost all of the dogs in my neighborhood are spayed/neutered.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

A lot of dog parks have a "no unaltered dogs over 6 (or so) months" rule. (Not that people necessarily abide by all the rules anyway.)

I personally wouldn't do dog parks EVER because people are IDIOTS! (We don't have dogparks in this part of the state anyway.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My first dog (Frodo) was horrible. But it was my first dog, he was a high energy German Working Line / BYB American line cross, and I made a ton of mistakes with him. Evenso, he never humped my leg and he did not mark in my house. 

My second dog, Dubya, as a gentleman. He had a few bad experiences as a pup and was not good with dogs outside of my pack. Other than that he was the perfect dog. He never humped. He peed on everything outside, but no major issues. He did pick a fight with Rushie once, but there were six intact bitches on the premises at that time. He was not good with cats. Had I neutered him, I am convinced that he would still not be good with cats. 

Rushie IS a perfect gentleman. He is three. He has never tried to hump my leg. (He tried to do this with my older brother once though.) He is fine with dogs outside of my pack, has been to shows, never has an issue with dogs or bitches outside my pack. At home, he wants to be the top dog and has had encounters with Arwen, my oldest bitch. Both times she was trying to keep him in line and it back fired. 

Rushie lives with seven intact bitches and Arwen. He has never "gone ballistic once." No point him roaming as the bitches are here, but roaming is not a problem with testicals, it is a problem with containment. My dogs are properly contained and cannot roam. If you prepare properly, this will not be a problem. 

Occasionally, when one of my bitches is in the potent time of her season, he may bark in a higher key, but it is certainly not anything obnoxious. 

When the bitches are outside in their kennels, whether they are in heat or not, I only have to call him, and he comes to me to go into his kennel. Occasionally if his snout is checking one of them out, his hearing becomes slightly affective and I have to put on my I-mean-business voice, and he comes directly. 

This is only my idiotic opinion, but I thing 70% of intact-dog-issues are really training issues; 20% of intact-dog-issues are age-related and would have cleared up with some maturing whether or not the dog was neutered. The other ten percent when weighed against the possible issues of juvenile neuter, are not worth considering. 

I did neuter Cujo at about 18 weeks before he went to live with my parents. He is leggy and tall, oversized, he is extremely dominant -- immediately dominating their senior male, and gives **** to all the guys that come over my parents' house. He does squat to pee and NEVER marks. He is epileptic, which could have resulted in one of the many times he has been under anesthetic, not just the neuter -- no other epilepsy anywhere in his lines, or in the other pups out of the litters. He is the only pup to get pano. He is also the only one with major skin problems -- unless the hormones have something to do with skin cells, I do not know if that could have had any impact. He is not good with strange dogs, even my own unless they are puppies. He has not been socialized nor taken to training classes, so what should I expect? 

I currently have 5 full siblings to Cujo and have kept in touch with the owners of the other 7 pups. The sample size is not huge. Harley was neutered early, and other than being a big boy, he does not have these issues. Kosar, Mack and Byner were also neutered young about a year old with no issues. So perhaps, I gave my parents a true runt, not just a little guy.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Timber is not neutered; however, the other dogs Ihave adopted or fostered have been. I should add Timber will never be bred, but after reading recent studies regarding neutering I elected not to neuter this rather expensive GSD. 

I see little difference, except perhaps in energy and ability. The non-neutered dog just performs better. My son had his competitive dog neutered, and finally admits if he had to do it over, the dog would remain intact.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Timber will never be bred, but after reading recent studies regarding neutering I elected not to neuter this rather expensive GSD.


I do not understand this comment.











> Quote: The non-neutered dog just performs better.


That's simply not true. I'm not sure what happened with your son's dog but there are other things that might have caused those changes - like his age. A sample size of one is too small to draw those conclusions. There are plenty of altered SAR dogs that perform fantastically and SAR is an extremely rigorous pursuit requiring high levels of both "energy and ability." Agility is full of altered dogs as well. I agree that altering may not be a good thing for Schutzhund - although I've seen altered dogs that did fine - it does seem like neutering is frowned upon there. But that's just one area. There's not any evidence that altering leads to decreased performance in any number of other areas.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Please, take the time to read the most recent studies from Europe and the US. 

In addition to ability to perform, the dog that nature screws with is more likely to have other health problems.

I have posted a few of the studies on this board, but will not search again for them.

Actually there is tons of info that supports my comments. As I suggested, do some research.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I see little difference, except perhaps in energy and ability. The non-neutered dog just performs better.


I question the broad applicability of your comments, Timber. My Pug is neutered and he never, ever, ever stops moving. His energy level is over the top as it is. I can't imagine what life would be like with him if he had more of it.
My 2.5 male GSD was neutered at 14 months and he is a very capable herding dog. I don't think his ability to perform has been hurt at all by neutering him. 
I am also thinking of the scores of altered dogs performing at the highest levels in agility competition. I think their handlers would beg to differ with you.
I just don't see any difference in working ability between intact and altered dogs. 
Sheilah


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I have done a LOT of research on this topic. If there are studies showing that altered dogs have less energy or ability, please post the links. I have read everything I've seen linked in previous threads and have not seen any studies that support those conclusions.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I just searched the archives using your user name and the keywords "research", "study", and "neuter" (searched each keyword separately) over the past two years which spans your membership and while I found a lot of posts where you make the same claim and mention your son's dog and several where you say that you've posted these studies as many as three times, I can't find any posts with links or any specific information about the studies. Do you know about when you posted these links or what keyword might turn them up?


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I have intact boxer and watched a female in heat at my house and I had no trouble with my boy! However this is a chance I will no longer take as this female boxer grew up with him, so he had no real interest in her (He does however show a big interest in other females that are not in his pack) 

You can teach any male not to mark, intact males that come to me for dog sitting I teach not to go around marking my bushes and things outside my house, and when I go walking off leash they can mark what they will but on leash you are not going to stop every 2 feet to mark and pee where you will! 

I had one intact GSD to me for dog sitting a few years ago and he did not mark the house until my husband came back home from iraq! My husband came home and this GSD marked the house as his territory! This was funny but he still got corrected for it! 

Most Germans do not allow the dogs to mark in their gardens and it takes about 1 to 2 weeks of staying on top of them to teach them so. 

As far as un-neutered males not getting along? If a female in heat is present then all bets off but under normal circumstances 2 males can get along better then 2 females! 

I'm lucky my females get along better with females and my males get along better with males! 
(Thank goodness)

So your male dog will only get away with what you allow. and as long as they respect you as their leader then you can very easy stop any squabbles.

The spay neuter topic has come up in reguards to my boxer as he has a retained testical and and I will be getting him neutered next winter. 

I deal with both Germans breeders and vets and American military vets....
of course the american vets say no this will not effect his drive and workability, then they proceed to tell me how many military K-9's are neutered....... and look how they work.. True! 

Now I have spoken to breeders and vets that are German and they tell me the same "Neutering will slow them down and make them less serious about their work" yada yada yada....
telling me also that the placement of my boxers retained Hoo Ha does not need to be removed as it is not up in the abdomen there for not heating up which is what causes the retained testical to go cancerous to begin with. 

I do not totally believe this either!
My feelings? 

You cannot use any place in Europe as a back ground for spay neuter argument! 
Sorry but the German's and most European countries in general ( excluding THE U,K) still have the mentality AGAINST neutering except if a medical problem is already present! 

I took such a verbal beating from dog sport people for spaying my GSD at 18 months because I was not going to use her for breeding! 

She works just fine and even at 5 1/2 years old is still a bit loopy when she gets onto the field to do bite work. 


However 1 thing I do find with a late spay at least of females... the later you spay them the harder it is to keep the weight off. even with lots of exercise and less food. (I cannot say this about males yet)


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Berg Wandererthis female boxer grew up with him, so he had no real interest in her (He does however show a big interest in other females that are not in his pack)


I wouldn't depend on who he grew up with, or who he sees as a member of his pack, to control his hormones. Dogs don't acknowledge the same sexual taboos that humans do. I would look elsewhere for an explanation of his lack of interest.
Sheilah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1 The non-neutered dog just performs better.


This is not true. Age of neutering/spaying can have an effect. Doing it before the dog reaches full maturity can affect performance. Doing it after maturity does not.



> Originally Posted By: Berg WandererIYou cannot use any place in Europe as a back ground for spay neuter argument!
> Sorry but the German's and most European countries in general ( excluding THE U,K) still have the mentality AGAINST neutering except if a medical problem is already present!


I think this is an *excellent* point. People often, intentionally or not, skew studies in the direction they want them to go. The European culture is very much against spay/neuter, whereas the American culture is very much pro spay/neuter. So when reading studies to support a point, one should take into account the likely bias of the study.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Of course people skew studies, but frankly most of the competitive dogs I have seen perform are not neutered. And I do not mean show dogs.

I am curious; have you read any of the recent studies that lay out the positives and negatives.

Perhaps it is time you post one, I have posted many.

As for neurtering after maturity, I cannot disagree.

In Green Bay this weekend, let me know via personal E Mail.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Are you talking to me? Let you know what via email?









I have read studies, and since they are so contridictory I take them generally with a grain of salt. My experience is based on years of experience with working dogs. Sure, most aren't neutered or spayed, partly due to the personal preference or bias of their owners (admitedly many in protection work, particularly men, have a strong bias against neutering that is based on anything but how it will affect their dog) and partly as a high number of dogs in performance venues are breeding stock. So of course they are not spayed or neutered, but the reasons for this really have nothing to do with whether the dog could still do the work if spayed or neutered.

But I have seen, and owned, many dogs spayed or neutered after maturity and they still worked the same as they did before. It had no affect whatsoever. For dogs neutered or spayed before maturity, there is no basis to set any opinion on because one never has the opportunity to see the intact mature dog, and altered mature dog and compare them. So it becomes much harder to say what behavior is due to altering, and what is just the dog.

Timber, how many true working or sport dogs have you owned, trained, or seen on a regular, long term basis (by regular and long term I mean once or twice a week, for months or years on end) in training and competition, both before and after they were spayed/neutered, on which you base your "neutering negatively impacts performanc" opinion? I'm particularly interested in protection work as this is a venue where this would be most likely to be seen, particularly in males as the male hormones can influence certain aspects of aggressive behavior, but any serious sport or working venue will do.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I am curious; have you read any of the recent studies that lay out the positives and negatives.


Do you mean studies or do you mean the various opinion pieces? I have read both but they're two completely different things. I've read everything I can get my hands on and with the op eds, I've looked through their references and gone and read the actual studies they're based on. Interestingly, they quite often don't show quite the same conclusions the op ed writer would have you believe. 



> Quote:I have posted many.


I can't actually find any evidence that that's the case. Can you give me some suggestions of keywords to try? I've tried "neuter", "study", and "research" with no luck.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

I think it is important to keep a close eye on your male if he is intact. From a shelter workers experience, when we start seeing a lot of females in heat, we also start to see a huge increase of intact males being turned into the shelter as strays.

If your dog is so inclined, he will find a way to escape and breed.
: )

Make sure he is chipped, and that Washington County Animal Services has your current information in the computer. This will ensure a quick return should he get the urge to break away.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

I dunno, it seems to me from my own limited experience work ethic got better without the distraction of sex drive. 

I think folks make more of the whole deal than it's worth, and unless you intend to breed, it simply doesn't much matter, except for the likelyhood that a nuetered male is less likely to wander, thus become exposed to who knows what accidental situations would arise form that. My guess would be more intact males get lost, hit by a car, etc 
than those altered.

Just my $.02


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Chris, competitive dogs, I jhave been involved with far to many recently, but only for the past three years.

Again, we missed you at the competition in Green Bay this weekend.

When you are going to an event let me know. I would be happy to meet you.

As I said in a prior post, being neutered at maturity I cannot comment on or disagree with your comments. Being neurtered as pup, no way. 

There are health issues related with neutering, and whether you want to accept these studies, or take them as a grain of salt is your call.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If you've read the studies about health concerns, I'm sure you've seen that there are actually health pros and cons on both sides. Looking solely at health the case for an early spay of female is considerably stronger than early neuter of a male because mammary cancer is fairly common whereas male dog reproductive cancers are not. 

As far as neutering having a negative impact on "performance" "ability" or "energy" as you have stated, I cannot find any published studies that support that claim and am eagerly awaiting the links.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Any dog is likely to wander if you don't bother to contain it. Containing the dog is a containment problem. Yes an intact bitch will cause a dog to trot across the street. So will a deer or a squirrel. People should not be so **** careless as to let their boys loose. 

Bitches will be just as quick to take off and hook up as a male. 

The responsible thing to do is to contain your dog. It is not impossible.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Hier hier I agree 110% with Selzer!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Agree, aside from health concerns one of the reasons Timber is not neutered.

All of the females on my Island are spayed, and as I mentioned before Timber will not be bred. Just to many rescues to foster.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for all the great input. I am not concerned about working ability, as I plan for him to be a companion dog only (although I might look into a sport for fun). I would really appreciate any online articles or references to show that neutering/spaying has negative health effects. 

Of course, I will do everything to keep him contained and safe, and I mean even after he is neutered. I'm not going to be one of those people who let their dogs run amok, especially if there are bitches in season.

I also do plan to microchip, but am still looking into the specifics of that.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Here are 2 studies for you.

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665?cookieSet=1

Personally - I prefer to leave my dogs intact. Some dogs have a higher sex drive than others so it's impossible to generalize. My male is a JRT and he goes nuts when the girls are in heat. I have also had intact adult GSD males here who were clueless. I have seen all kinds of dogs and all kinds of personalities in both intact and spayed/neutered dogs. So really it is a personal decision!

I think you are doing the right thing by waiting til your dog is about 2 years old to neuter. I wouldn't do it before then.


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