# start line stays



## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

As some of you know (and have seen) start line stays with Kahlua are my biggest problem - in trials. She is fine in class but the excitement of the trial just blows her self control out the window. 
I have been trying different things to see what works. I was taking her off but then figured she really didn't know why she was being removed - by the time I got her back she had done a few obstacles so I doubt that taught her anything. I reward a stay with lots of praise (plus she gets to run <G>) and that works - sometimes.
Today I went to a match - 4 runs and a chance to work 4 stays. First run - she had an absolutely perfect stay (and a nice run). Second run, she started to break but reset herself - no obstacles taken. Third run - I ran out of luck )) First was a tire to dog walk. Too much attraction ) I take off leash - she is fine. Set her up, she is fine. I take a step she is through the tire. Call her back and resit her, talk a step she is through the tire. Five times!! Hey that's why I drove 1 1/2 hours to work on this )

So I take her back and resit her and leave - wow I got to the dogwalk - didn't want to blow my luck so released her. Ran the course and back to start - set her up and this time I got to top of upside!! Fourth run she stayed - again a jump was first - must be jumps are less appealing )

Anyway I was happy she broke her stay in the match - its hard to fix if she is always good when I have the chance to do something. But I really need to figure out what is best to do at a trial when her excitement is even higher.

I will have a good chance to work on it at our club trial in a few weeks. I am not entered to run her but my trainer asked me if I could come and work all the Master level classes in return for working on her start line stays in all the Starter and Advanced classes - can't turn that down. So any tips as to what I should try given these opportunities. My trainer says I should take her off the minute she starts to go if leash is still on. Anyone agree???

Pat


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Take her off? Take her off the agility field? Is that what you are describing? I'm not experienced at agility so probably not getting the picture.

Are you rewarding the stays in any other way than letting her go forward if correct? Are you going back to her after a successful stay and releasing to fun tug game? Giving fun active food reward?


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

yes - the idea was to remove her and not let her play unless she stays on the start line. So I would take her to her crate, no talking and just ignore her.

Pat


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

I can't reward them in a trial. In class and at matches I reward with food. I have done tons of control work with her off the field. I will leave her in her "lineup" and wait position, walk away with her toy and then release her to the toy. I have always done this - I use "quit" as my release word and I have rewarded a good "quit" forever. 
Outside of a trial I can leave her at the end of a football field and walk away, throw her ball and she will not release until I use the command. So she has control - just loses it all when she goes to the ring.

I can even leave her outside the ring and walk a short bit away and release. She loves to tug so that is her greatest reward.

But when you are in a trial you just can;t reward other than verbally.

Pat


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh probably someone has lots of experience with this...

But I have never been a fan of those kinds of consequence games with a dog.

I find it much better to reward the stay in itself. Go to her...release to tug game, release to food and you move back creating a little prey game to get the food from your hand.

Make this staying a bit separate from always going forward. Make there be another possible and exciting reward rather than forward movement.

I have usually been able to get dogs to mess up in practice if they mess up in a trial. I haven't failed at the "he only does this at competition" challenge yet. Create more excitement in practice and reward, reward the stay with something other than proceed to your agility object. 

I wouldn't have any fun doing that removal thing myself so probably wouldn't opt for it. You don't get to help and reward correctness that way.

Maybe try to get some real excitement going at the start in practice. Dogs running next to, taking obstacles, people jumping running next to, you doing something very exciting... I don't know..but sounds like she needs proofing and work in the midst of excitement.... got to create that somehow...hmmmm


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

http://www.powerpawsagility.com/articles/startline.html

Does any of this relate??


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

It sounds like you are getting a handle on this, and I agree taking her off the course AFTER she's already not only broken the stay but also taken equipment is just not going to be clear to her at all.

I know that for me, I have to set Bretta WAY back from the 1st obstacle (if there is room) because that helps keep the excitement down a bit for her.

Also, when I was working on her stays, I never pushed to see how far away I could go before she'd break. Because I was causing her to break................ see what I mean? I was actually almost setting her up to fail because I knew we were having problems in general so EVERY time she failed in the startline stay it would confirm the lack of clarity for her. Added to the fact the further away I was in the lead out when she broke made it 100% that my timing for her STARTLINE issue was going to be muddied with all the equipment she did before I corralled her.

So when my problem was the startline, I just work the startline with the goal of setting her up to succeed rather then pushing the distance to find out where she would fail. 

If I KNEW I could set her up, go laterally, wait a bit for the 'stay' and then release her for a successful start, then that's what I'd do for a trial or 2 and see how it would go. MUCH easier to catch her early, see her twitching to break, and be CRYSTAL clear to her what I wanted cause my timing is better when I'm right there.

Only when I had a bunch of successes just lateral would I move a bit past the first obstacle with the same intent. What distance did I pretty much KNOW she'd keep her stay on? Once again with the goal of having her succeed, not pushing the distance to see when she'd fail.

Cut to now, a few years later and I can lead out 3 obstacles. But do I always cause I can? No way. Cause she still is so ramped and excited she does those tiny frog hops before settling at the line (another reason I set her way back). But I hold my criteria and don't move far until she settles. 

I also 'test' her startline all the time. The games are a good place for this cause alot of time I don't really need a lead out at all, but I still always do one, but just a one jump lead out. These leadouts really allow me to watch her, be close to show her I'm not always so far away she can take advantage. 

It has REALLY helped that I don't do an 'obedience' heel to the startline and have her then sit in heel position. That doesn't work for us. Instead we move to position and I face her, bump her back if I need to (so my back is to the course and where we are going) then I tell her to wait and start to leave. 

If she starts to scoot forward and I'm near I just walk back and bump her back with my feet and knees............only I bump her FURTHER back then she started! Later I add the 'back back' that will bump her back when I'm pretty far away, cause I just need to take one step towards her and she thinks 'mom is coming she must mean it' and fixes herself.

She doesn't like me in her space and she doesn't like being bumped back. So she CHOOSES to stay in place or back up rather than go face to face with me. THis is NOT a correction at all, it's just her choice. If she moves forward, I WILL bump her back. If she stays in place then life is good!

I know I can't push for any distance until she's rock solid close. And then I need to 'baby step' my way further out and away. 

BTW, have you seen Susan Garrett's 'Success with One Jump' DVD series? Or gone to one of her camps/seminars (they are up in Canada somewhere!). She does alot of work with teaching a solid stay with an excited and enthusiastic dog, I bet you could pick up some good tips there.

From Cleanrun


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Samba, that's a great article, specially the part about how our dogs are more visual than verbal so teach themselves to release on our movement and NOT our release word.

I know I had to start video taping myself cause I would SWEAR up and down I wasn't moving a hair when I said 'ok'. How embarrassed was I to find out that not only do I drop my arm, I also bob my head! The video doesn't lie and when I finally listened and learned to REALLY not move a hair, and just give the verbal, things improved.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hopefully your ideas will help Pat and Kahlua. I am going to save your post for myself too!!

I love that One Jump Video also. It is packed with information and techniques.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'd also highly recommend Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed: http://controlunleashed.net/book.html

I know she's got specific exercises for perfecting the start line stay in her book, but I don't recall exactly what they are. But there's SO much wonderful information in her book that it would be best to buy it and read it yourself. I think she's an absolute genius when it comes to dog behavior. I've read the book twice and used many of her exercises with Keefer & Halo, and she's also got a DVD that I plan to buy at some point that demonstrates all the exercises in the book.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

My boy is so tempted to break his start line so we practice it all the time. I leave him at the start line and go out however far, put out my hand, say "good" or some other words, then go back and release him with his ball. This way he gets rewarded for holding it. My dog gets released from his start line in practice way more than he gets to go. 

If your dog can't hold it that long, don't go out very far. Definitely hit as many run and dones as you can and have someone stand behind your dog and say "go" several times to desensitize her to that.


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks Jen. I have the dvd and in fact I have taught it that way. Using the toy tossed behind her and releasing her backwards etc. I like that part of it and so does Kahlua ) 
I agree that moving far away isn't a good idea. I did it today because I was at a match and even then didn't go farther than the next obstacle. I know I can go farther in class - heck I've gone to the end of the ring and she stayed. 

I also can get lateral distance. I've left her at start line and walked to the finish line to drop my leash at a trial - and she stays. Once I take one step forward though - game on )) So I do like your idea of using lateral and releasing her.

I also like using the games to work on this - I will and do call her back and re-sit her in Gamblers or CPE Fullhouse where all I lose is time and she generally can make it up with her speed - if not its a lesson run.

I also try to give her real positive experiences at the start line. Like only asking for a second of staying still and then giving the release word so I am the one releasing. Running with her is okay but she is fast and there are and will be classes where I need to be out a few jumps ahead.

I have a dvd about start line stays and impulse control and I like the one premise in it that you first teach the release not the stay and reward the heck out of the release. Kahlua knows she has to sit and wait for the release to get her tug so for her that word is magic and means lots of fun with mom. Guess I'm just not as much fun as the equipment although I have to say she loves to stop in the middle of a run and play with me so she is not 100% focused only on the equipment.

Pat


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

I've done Control Unleashed (have the book marked and highlighted a lot )and it is really good. It has helped us a lot. I still use the LAT (look at that) when we are in line waiting to run. The main problem with her book though si that unless you can get into a situation with others to do the other exercises you can only go so far and I have not been able to do that. I do know a few people who also use it and when we are at matches together we work on it while the other dog is in the ring and help each other which is good but infrequent.

Pat


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

Interesting article. Her suggestion for class is what we do. I try to get her to break - I lead out, jump up and down, toss her tug, say "ready, set, banana, etc." if she breaks I go back and we leave and another dog gets to have its turn. Usually this only happens once but I have had a class where she didn't get to do many of the sequences (full moon that night) )
I also do stays in various situations including at the pool. Kahlua loves to swim and I will leave her in a wait, go to the end of the pool and release - by then she is quivering big time but she stays. She has to do a sit stay every single time we go in or out a door including at the trial. I have done crate games with her and she has to stay in her crate until released. 

I like the suggestion she has of taking the leash off at the gate and walking to the start line. It seems that it is the action of slipping the leash over her head (or unclipping the collar) that gets her revved up - almost like it is her signal to go. And yes I do the same thing in class.

But I know I am not the same confident handler at a show as I am in class or at a match where I know I can fix it. 

We had a trial where we ran a contest at the end of the day in a Jumpers class. Had to handle the dog standing on a table in middle of the course. That meant a huge lead out. I decided to try it and a friend asked if I wanted her to hold Kahlua. I opted to leave her and walked to the table. She not only stayed perfectly, she ran more than half the course at a distance with me on the table. 
True the excitement of the trial wasn't there except we had all the same dogs , people standing around, the judge in the ring, dogs waiting to go in after her, a dog ran before her etc.

I think there the difference was me. I was confident and calm and knew she would stay because I know she can do it. I am just not like that at a trial so I have that to overcome too.

Pat


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know in AKC they changed the rule so I think you can't take the leash off the dog until the timer says 'Go or Ready' which usually means you are already in and set up on the line (if I'm wrong with this feel free to chime in!).

Also, have you got someone to video YOU when you do your release. I'm not kidding how I would have SWORN I wasn't even blinking when I did my 'ok' and then I saw the video. The small tilt down of my head while at the same time lowering my outstretched arm was obvious on the video. Showing I DO have a movement as well as a verbal on my release. This is what makes our reactive dogs that want to go go go ANTICIPATE that we are doing the release at any small twitch or movement that is close to what we've accidentally been doing on our real releases. 

So now I try to teach that me moving all around and twitching assures that there is NO release, so just like everyone else suggested (and I'm sure you do) I exaggerate my movements some of the time to mess with her to see if she breaks, and other times do lesser things. So NOW, my walking and moving into place should show her that NO WAY have I released her, and when I get into place I take a deep calming breath (which I'm sure IS a cue for her now but it's ALWAYS when I'm in place and looking at her) try to make sure she's looking at the bar (Susan Garrett







) and then stand like a stone until she's actually OVER the first jump.

While I lose the distance by not moving until she's over the first jump, this has really helped me to stand like a statue in an exaggerated way while being able to continue to stand and watch to make sure she DOES stay until the release. I found when I was rushing and trying to beat her to where we were going it was only making her more frantic and pushing the line.

Set her up to succeed! Don't push the distance and then do it slowly. I even make my classmates yell and remind me to remember to go back and reward at the startline when things are going well and I start taking her 'waits' for granted.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I totally agree with the suggestions given thus far.

Something else to ponder, while having a lead out is a huge benefit, sometimes at trials our dogs may get stressed or us handlers feel stress thus resulting in a break at start line because we move to far out of their comfort zone.

When I was trialing my female gsd, for years she had a wonderful startline stay, but as she got older, trials got bigger, noisier, she just wasn't up for those huge lead outs. With that in mind, my trainer had me back up, start line stay, step only a couple of steps away and run with her vs leaving her. IT was a much better set up for her and I could tell by her performance. 

Also, altho I see alot of people stay their dog and walk off and it works, the majority of dogs you see breaking those start line stays are the ones where the handlers have turned their backs on their dogs. 

So I definately agree on not pushing the distance , run with your dog if you have to and of course never turn your back on them.)

Just something to ponder


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How are the stays reinforced while the dog is staying? Reinforcing the release word a lot would amp up the release behavior way above the stay behavior. I don't think dogs may realize that they had to "stay" in order to get a release very well. I like to reward while still sitting. Now of course, food that is super rewarding is not possible with all dogs. And the obstacles are so fun!

It sounds like proofing for all sorts of things would be so critical. I see I will need to go out there and do the boogie woogie as I never know what inadvertant twitch I am going to display!!

It sounds tricky and might not work at a trial... but I have a recall sequence that I use because my dog will anticipate the recall like a nut. I don't recall the dog until I have taken steps back toward her. She waits for this sequence in practice. When showing, I delete the last part, of course (its not a legal part of exercise), so she remains sitting until the command. The dog is more excited at the show, so I have never had her not recall because she is still waiting for the entire sequence. She will come on command because her drive for that is very high.

I have been to agility classes where the start line stay is an issue. Since I was more "obediencey" I noted that not so much effort was spent on that behavior. It seemed like to both dog and handler it was a prefunctory nuisance prior to getting to the FUN stuff. I realized this behavior would have to be a real work of art in training with a super drivey dog.


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

First check out this video - her super start line stay in the Jumpers Challenge we did this summer. I was confident and calm and she stayed although she was really eager to run.

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii68/...competition.flv

I don't want to sound as if I don't reinforce the stay and only the release. In training I go back lots and reward with great food. I also will go back and reward with a game of tug and then re position. Although I have found that the tugging gets her ramped up so high that she can't think as much so I have reduced that especially before a run and use a more calming food.

Jen you are right about AKC and leashes but I don't do much AKC and it is allowed in venues I compete in mainly. And as I said I do the motion stuff - you should see me jumping up and down in class, waving my arms, taking steps forward as if to run etc.

Funny thing is she knows the drill. We had a class once where we ran without giving any verbals. Kahlua would not release from her start line until I finally said I have to give the verbal. Then we get to table. She refused to leave the table until I used her release word - just glued herself to the table top - was ready to go but she waited. My trainer and I know she has a good understanding of the exercise as she has had tons of training in various locations and I have proofed all the motion stuff and even using different words. To her "quit" is the magic word that means fun is going to come - whether its playing tug, getting her ball or running agility.

And as I said the "stays" are reinforced and rewarded all the time, before she gets outside, going into buildings - we go though food a lot just getting into our main trial building as we have double doors )
Takes a while to get in there as she has to sit and wait while I open the door and step ahead of her and then reward her for waiting and then release into a reward.

I like to run with her as I don't have the pressure of the stay but she is so fast that she will be 4-5 obstacles ahead of me while I'm still miles behind and for a young dog that can spell off course really fast )

BTW thanks for the all the suggestions. I find it really helps to talk out problems like this.

Pat


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Pat... your dog is too smart!! I don't know what to do about that!


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

LOL yeah she is - clearly smarter than I am <VBG> I really think its such a combo of things - she is young, immature, excited, wants to just get moving and has not yet developed full self control. Her breeder says it will come with maturity - so hope I survive in the meantime )

Pat


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If she is young, then it probably will come. Impulse control improves with maturity. I know you are a good trainer so simply doing no harm shouldn't be hard for you while you wait on her young brain.


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## lylol (Feb 18, 2009)

Crate Games... its a great way to reinforce impulse control and build solid startline foundation... or retrain it... and its a "game" adding value to the whole idea of sitting and waiting


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

We have done that too )) Works great in the crate not so much on the start line ))

Pat


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