# Watery foamy diarrhea and whole bones - 9 week old



## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

Hey all - 

Brought home our new 9 week old female GSD (Sammy) this Saturday. Started her on a raw diet of chicken necks, chicken breast and chicken liver. (Started our male 14 month old - Anubis - on Raw, Friday)

She has had terrible terrible diarrhea. She goes in her crate with no warning (she tends to bark AFTER) and we've had to clean her and the crate three times in the last 24 hours.

This morning, we found three small chunks of chicken bone (each the size of a dime) and one glob of chicken fat (the size of a quarter) in with her watery stool. An hour later, she had bubbly diarrhea again (outside thank god). Its very liquid with little solidness to it, if any.

Is this to be expected? Any suggestions on how to help her?

Here is what she is getting by weight:

Her weight: 15 pounds
RMB: 8.4oz per day
MM: 7.56oz per day
OM: .84oz per day

We broke the food up into two meals - she got half her daily total on Saturday night (had kibble the morning at the breeder's...her last solid poop was Saturday afternoon). Sunday she got her daily total split into two portions (morning and night).

Today we decided to try splitting it up into three meals, as maybe it was too much food to handle in two sittings.

Any help is appreciated. I know its only been two days, but its somewhat disheartening to clean up the crate every couple hours.

Our 14 month old seems to be doing fine, other than some loose stools.

Thank you!


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## vomonyxhaus (Feb 15, 2009)

Could be the sudden switch.... was the breeder giving raw with the kibble at all????


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

No - the breeder was not giving raw. She was feeding a mix of 365 kibble (Whole Foods Brand) and Purina Puppy Chow.

The breeder was against us putting her on raw until she was full grown. The breeder is a good friend of the breeder we got our 14 month old from. The two dogs are actually cousins. The puppy is a line bred American Show Line. She was given a clean bill of health by the vet before we brought her home.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

Probably the liver, skin and too much meat to bone and/or too much food period. I suggest giving her a couple of chicken thighs without the skin. These are easy to use because they are small and easy to get the portion size right. At this age I feed the pups about 1/lb per day divided into two meals total.

Are the breasts with bone or boneless? If they have the bone in, I would suggest cutting off the skin and some of the meat and giving this along with a couple necks. I don't usually feed pups this age chicken necks as they are a choke hazard - they are small enough for the pup to gulp down. 

I currently have a litter of foster pups they are a week older than your pup. They eat chicken quarters (small ones) without some of the skin off, thighs or 1/2 of a Cornish game hen (or you can cut up a chicken into 4 quarters), pork neck bones, pork brisket or pork spare ribs (these are easy to cut and portion), turkey tails (small and easy to make the second daily meal if breakfast is large) and duck necks.


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## vomonyxhaus (Feb 15, 2009)

I probably would have not done a sudden full switch... I would have slowly introduced the raw diet....
Mine get Taste Of The Wild kibble (all 3 flavors), Raw and whatever we don't finish off our plates... But I started them on raw from the get go..... Picture giving a vegetarian a hamburger or a strictly meat and potatoes guy a salad....neither will be pretty as their gut is not used to digesting foreign (if you never eat that type of thing) substance...so to speak...


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

When starting it out it's not uncommon to have the runs. That being said, giving 3 things in such a short time is a no-no. Start with wings, thighs or legs. Not all 3. chicken necks can gum up the works, breast is all meat. Liver can def. give the runs. So pick one of the better balanced bone/meat combos and give that for a week, then add say necks in., take it slow.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

Three people saying too much too soon... This is opposite of the advice I received in my research post last week.

I will stop feeding liver for now.

The breasts are boneless - the only bone she is getting is from the necks, which she has to chew for about 3 minutes each to break down enough to swallow.

Can I just feed the necks and breast meat (with more fat/skin trimmed off)?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: JeepnickAny suggestions on how to help her?


I would give her some plain canned pumpkin and nothing else for the rest of the day.



> Quote:Here is what she is getting by weight:
> 
> Her weight: 15 pounds
> RMB: 8.4oz per day
> ...


The loose stools could be from either too much food or the organ meat. I would cut out the organ meat for now and cut the amount back a bit. 

Maybe start with 5% of her weight and see how that goes for a couple days.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks for all the quick responses... Any additional advice is appreciated. Still learning... 

Going to store to get canned pumpkin and will feed her a couple little spoon fulls. Sticking the liver back in the freezer for the rest of the week.

I will also try cutting her back to 5%.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

**UPDATE**

She was given about 1.5 tablespoons of pumpkin about 7 hours ago. All it has done so far is change the diarrhea to orange.

Will update with progress later or tomorrow. Poor girl.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

the bone in the poo is supposedly normal when switching to raw. Its because her digestive system hasnt learned to create the enzymes needed for the digestion of the hard bone. She should get over this soon.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

Also when starting out, maybe you should not feed any organ meat until she is used to the muscle meat and meaty bones..going from kibble to raw can be a shock on the dogs system to some dogs so give it time. Soon you will see those nice firm poo's that crumble the next day


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I don't with hold food from pups, so my suggestion would be to feed her a few chicken necks with the skin off! These are boney and will firm her up naturally. I have fostered and switched alot of dogs and pups and never had a problem especially if I get the portions and meat to bone ratio correct. More bone is better than less when first starting out. Also underfeeding is better than overfeeding. I have had no problems with adding variety quickly. Pups usually tend to tolerate the variety in their diet.
When I started out I weighed everything and tried to figure percentages. Once I moved to a prey model style of feeding I feed by the piece. If the pups get a bigger piece in the morning, they get something smaller in the evening. I feed meaty bones so I don't have to add "muscle meat" the pieces I feed have their own muscle meat attached. The only boney pieces I am feeding the pups right now are occasional duck necks and they will follow a meal where the portion fed had a higher meat content.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

*UPDATE*

Well we took a bit of advice from everyone and gave her some pumpkin yesterday. This resulted in orange diarrhea, but seemed to force her system into pooping more often. She was going about every 45-60 minutes...usually just a mucusy sludge. She went outside 3-4 times last night and once in her crate (from 12am to 7am) and so far has not gone this morning.

She got no food yesterday after the pumpkin. This morning, she got 2oz of chicken necks which had been run through the food processor for a bit (just to help with the large bone chunks) and 1.8 oz of breat meat with skin and fat trimmed off. She also got 1/8tsp of digestive enzymes.

Hoping when she finally poops that its more solid. Will update when situation changes.

Thanks all.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

**UPDATE**

Well, her stool has gone from very watery brown puddles to a terrible brown/green mucus coated ooze. She is also let out a clear mucus by itself just 30 minutes ago.

She is as energetic and rambunctious as any puppy I've ever seen, but her stools still have me worried. The advice that seems to make the most sense is to stop the raw, put her back on the kibble she had at the breeders and see if that makes her stool "normal" again.

So with that in mind, she just had dinner (she got a 12 hour fast yesterday to try and help her stomach settle...and I decided not feeding her again tonight was bad since she is so young and light weight - 14.5 pounds today)... so her dinner tonight was the kibble from the breeder and nothing else.

I am hoping this will get her back to normal. She will get the same kibble meal tomorrow for breakfast. If her stool is not looking better by noon, she is off to the vet. If the stool is normal, she will remain on the kibble through Friday, at which point I plan to mix some raw chicken breast into her kibble (about 10% chicken, 90% kibble) followed the next day by 25% chicken, 75% kibble for a few days - gradually switching her over and giving her time to adjust.

Will update if there is a change.
Thanks for all the advice...keep it coming if you have something to add.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you haven't had a vet check since you picked her up, I would schedule one for tomorrow. Most breeding contracts state a 72 hr. check(it protects you and them), even if the breeder had an all clear from their vet, I would still have my own check out my new puppy. Has the pup been wormed lately? Vaccinations right before leaving the breeder? There are more things that come into play than what you are feeding. 
Instead of kibble, I would do a cooked chicken and double-boiled rice diet for a few days/then move to raw after the puppy has stablized. The puppy chow is not the best quality and you will be adding too many ingredients in an already compromised gut.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

She hasn't been to the vet since we brought her home - the breeder and I use the same vet, and they gave her a thumbs up a few days prior to her coming home with us.

She tested negative for worms at the vet. She received a shot of intervet pro gard 5 a week before we took her home.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

**New Update**

She had kibble for dinner last night...no raw at all. Her diarrhea improved only in that it was less frequent. I took her out four times last night, but this morning (an hour after she was last out) I woke to find her crate so incredibly soiled that it had spattered on the walls and floor surrounding the crate. She too was covered head to toe in nastiness.

I decided a vet trip was in order so I phoned and they said they would take me in an hour. So I cleaned her up as best I could in the limited time and wisked her off to the vet.

The vet said she had very slightly elevated bacteria levels in her stool (they swabbed her) and no evidence of Giardia (sp?). She checked out healthy other than having watery poop, so he prescribed a wide spectrum antibiotic and another medication for her tummy...both pills. We were told she should show great improvement within 24 hours and should be all better by Saturday...and if she isn't to bring her back in.

So thats where we are. She is still very energetic and drinking water and eating what we give her. She played for two hours non-stop with my adult GSD last night and had a blast. So it seems this is just an upset tummy, possibly a minor infection. Glad we took her in and hope it clears up quickly.

As for her diet, we have decided to keep her on kibble until things even out. She gets a teaspoon of canned with her kibble, so when the can is gone, we will start putting a teaspoon of finely chopped chicken breast in with the kibble. Once she is doing good on that, we will switch gradually. Seems she just has a sensitive tummy.

Thanks for all the support and info. I'll update when she is better or if things continue poorly.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I know RAW must have it's benefits but after my ordeal with Athena I won't do it again.It sounds like she may have the same as what we dealt with and the Vet said the RAW may have been the cause.If she was fine before the RAW and does good on the dry kibble I would stick to what her tummy can deal with.Hopefully the meds will take care of the bacteria.Did he prescribe FortiFlora also?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I would still do antigen test for giardia, just to be on a safe side. Now you understand the reason why it's recommended to keep puppy on the same food, even not the best one, that the breeder fed for a while, just to eliminate any health concerns and be sure that diarreah and everything else is food related and not worms, giardia, coccidia etc. Good luck with your puppy!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I would find a good quality kibble and do a gradual switch over and stick with kibble till she gets older and her tummy matures too.Some dogs tummy's are too sensitive for RAW.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I would still do antigen test for giardia, just to be on a safe side. Now you understand the reason why it's recommended to keep puppy on the same food, even not the best one, that the breeder fed for a while, just to eliminate any health concerns and be sure that diarreah and everything else is food related and not worms, giardia, coccidia etc. Good luck with your puppy!!


Vet said the antibiotic will take care of anything that is there, including giardia. Hes treating for it just in case, rather than wait a couple days for a test.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI would find a good quality kibble and do a gradual switch over and stick with kibble till she gets older and her tummy matures too.Some dogs tummy's are too sensitive for RAW.


The breeder tried several different kibbles with the litter and they all caused "pudding poo"..her words. The stools on this kibble are not perfect either, but better than others I suppose. I had wanted to switch our 14 month old to raw for some time, and figured since she had problems on kibble that we might as well do them at the same time.

It didn't occur to me until it was too late that the stress from being taken from her litter mates and introduced to a new environment, new dog, new people was too much when combined with a new food as well. Not to mention waiting to see how her health was on her old food.

Lesson learned.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

It could I suppose be possible that these dogs had a bacteria problem from day one.The Fortiflora is a probiotic to get good bacteria back in the stomach.The Antibiotics are going to mess up the bacteria too but is needed.

We all do things as new dog owner that we go Duh afterwards. I just can't chance it again for Athena.In a month she lost almost 10lbs and was just miserable.Good Luck


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with above, the pups probably had a bug. I would still take in a stool sample when you go to the vet. A pup can be clear, and have worms again within a week or two.


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## Jeepnick (Jul 7, 2008)

Shes taking Amoxicillin and Metronidazole, per the Vet. She showed great improvement (no more diarrhea) within 12 hours of her first dose, and by 28 hours, she had her first bowel movement and it was much more solid. As of yesterday afternoon, her stool is completely normal again.

The vet thinks is possible she had giardia and just tested negative - that the stress of a new home and being taken from her litter made it flare up.

At any rate, she is much better now and gaining weight again. Whew! Sticking with kibble for her for now. Will work with Raw again later on.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Glad you were able to sort it out Hopefully you _will_ be able to try raw again later.







Let us know if/when you do.


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## Allie (Aug 7, 2008)

Hi -
I do not feed raw but I was following this thread as I saw it when you first posted. So glad Sammy is doing better. She sounds like a great puppy.


Mary Lou , Allie (4 year old GSd) and Murphy (10 plus rottie/chow)


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