# Would you switch trainers over this



## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I have 2 GSDs a 10 month old puppy and a 17 week old puppy. The younger puppy just finished his shots and is now able to go to obedience classes with the older puppy. At the first class the younger puppy had a bit of a temper tantrum...crying for our other dog, pulling towards her, constant crying when it wasn't his turn in the ring etc. The obedience instructor wants us to purchase a small prong collar for the puppy and bring him to class with it on the dead ring...I do not agree with this I think he is way too young. We are already addressing the issue of him becoming too dependent of the older dog at home. This trainer has done wonders for our other dog, and is a trainer we really like but I REALLY disagree with her wanting a puppy that young on a prong. Would you switch trainers? Thoughts?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would not put a prong on a puppy that one for that reason and without conditioning the puppy to a prong. I would not switch trainers but I would have a discussion on that with the trainer.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I would not put a prong on a puppy that one for that reason and without conditioning the puppy to a prong. I would not switch trainers but I would have a discussion on that with the trainer.


Yeah I agree a prong on a puppy isn't a good idea to me


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I am aware that a prong on a 4 month old puppy is not a good idea. I was very put off by the suggestion of one from the trainer. I'm wondering if other members would opt to switch trainers after a suggestion like this?


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

ill just have a conversation with the trainer first figure out why he or she thinks it's okay to put a prong on a puppy. If I smell BS in the air when he or she speaks im switching trainners. Just talk to him or her and let us know what was said I think that's the best way to go about it it's a lot of people on here who know a lot about training


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Personally, I would just be picking another class. One that my older dog was not in as well. Then as the puppy gets older try again for the same class. But right now it's not fair to the puppy. 

You have had good success with this trainer with your older dog, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just take separate classes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Stick with the class. Both dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mikki said:


> I am aware that a prong on a 4 month old puppy is not a good idea. I was very put off by the suggestion of one from the trainer. I'm wondering if other members would opt to switch trainers after a suggestion like this?


That's not what I said.

First, no I would not switch trainers over this. You stated you liked the trainer. Talk to him/her about your concerns and other options. Options such as taking a class with only the puppy (which I would do anyways for bonding and training)

Second, I would not put a prong on the puppy for THIS reason or without any conditioning to the prong. 

However, I personally have, and would again, put a prong on a 4 month old puppy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Takes a certain amount of swag to prong collar a puppy in a group class. Trainer has to either be tactful or a really smooth talker.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I didn't start this thread over whether or not a prong collar for a puppy this young was okay-there are enough threads on that already, but rather to ask what my next move should be. I am not comfortable with the idea. For a little more background, every single dog in this class wears a prong (I have no problem with my older dog, because she's older and I believe needs one at the moment). The other dogs are all older. I am under the impression that the trainer may not be familiar with alternatives because she jumped right to the prong/pinch collar. This is not a puppy/pet obedience class it is a class for competitive obedience. We all pitch in to rent the ring and get some time in the ring with the trainer to work on whatever we want. Everybody sits and watches each other to learn from one another. After getting it all in writing and being able to vent a little, I think I'm just going to do my own research for what collar I want to use and show up to class next week with that.


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## BoyOhBoy!! (Apr 30, 2015)

Could you continue the same class with your older dog and do a separate basic obedience class with just you and your younger pup? I think you might be making it harder on yourself attempting to do obedience with both dogs when your pup, at this time, is more drawn to your older dog than to you.

Mom to Remi


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I go to a GSD club for training. The trainers believe differently with age of using a prong. Bottom line is that its a suggestion and not a reason to switch trainers. Only you decide the method to use on the pup. I wouldn't necessarily pull the pup from the class, I might do an additional class with just the pup. 

Is the pup trying to get to the other dog or to whoever is handling the older dog?


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

If it bothers you then you should change. You will only start to notice other problems and start to regret going.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

My boyfriend comes to class too and we take turns handling each dog. He pulls to get to the other dog. Upon realizing that he is becoming too dependent on the older dog we have began to crate them in Seperate rooms when were not home and limit their time spent together when we are home. We've also been making a point to get each dog out of the house seperately instead of all together. There is another class for just young puppies that we are going to start taking in addition to the other class just with the young pup to create a bond and just for the extra training time:


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

My personal feeling would be that the suggestion alone is not enough to switch trainers. Use an alternative to the prong that you're comfortable with, as you said. Only if the trainer then gives you grief about making your own decision instead of taking his or her suggestion, then I would consider switching trainers.


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## BoyOhBoy!! (Apr 30, 2015)

Maybe you could try a freedom harness during this class? While you or your partner are practicing obedience with the older pup, you could use the harness to redirect your younger pup to focus on you. When he does (while using the front/chest clip), you reward with a treat. I don't think this will fix the problem of the fixation on your older dog completely, but in combination with a separate obedience class, it might help.


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## Jayfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

I would work with the puppy separately at home and in a variety of other places, making sure to create a strong bond. You said that you are now limiting their time together. That's good. Become the center of the puppy's universe. As others have mentioned, consider putting him in a separate class, and once he has proven himself capable of handling higher distractions and is more focused, start putting them together again. Also, ask your trainer and discuss alternative solutions to the problem. After all, they are there to help you.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

We are going to a different puppy specific class on Sunday. I'll report back how it goes!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I would be more concerned that the trainer was okay with having two resident dogs in the same class than I would be about suggesting a prong. 

I hope separate classes works for the OP. I think they'll see a big improvement in behavior.
Sheilah


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

if the trainer is good with your older dog, why not keep that one in class and work on the puppy yourself?

Classes aren't always necessary and the younger pup would benefit with more one on one with you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm with Jax Mikki. I wouldn't put the prong on and jump right into the middle of a class trying to stop everything with it. But, I don't think I even waited till 4mos to show any of mine what a prong is and condition them to it. You're going to use one at 6mos or something? Why not calmly intro them to it before that?


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't know how to quote a post from my phone, but sit stay what would be wrong with a trainer allowing two dogs from the same house into class together? It's not like I was trying to handle both of them at the same time, my boyfriend that also lives with the dogs was handling as well. 

To answer the other post (can't figure out how to quote from my phone). I have not started to condition him to a prong because if he doesn't need one I will not be using one. I hardly think crying to play in class is reason to use a prong, and it's something I'm already working on correcting.

Moving forward, I have him in a different puppy obedience class that him and I will go to once a week. He was purchased for show, so we will be going to a breed handing class as well. My other dog will continue to go to the other obedience class. As the puppy gets older and ages out of the young puppy classes he will probably go to the obedience class too.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, hey Mikki, it isn't a weapon to be used against him. Its just a collar. If you don't want to use one, that's fine. Just think in terms of training what you want, don't focus on the equipment in terms of needing something. Have fun with him.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I understand the prong is not a weapon lol, I use one with my older dog just don't agree with using one on a young puppy and wouldn't choose to use one if I didn't have to.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

As a side note, he was bought to be shown...you can't use a prong collar on akc grounds so I wish to avoid using one to train when I can't use one in the actual venue we train for


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Mikki said:


> I don't know how to quote a post from my phone, but sit stay what would be wrong with a trainer allowing two dogs from the same house into class together?


They need to learn how to operate out in the world separated from each other. They are very close in age and should have the benefit of your full attention while training. You can't give your full attention if one is squealing like a stuck pig due to the frustration of not being able to reach the buddy/housemate. It isn't fair to anyone involved.

I have spent a lot of time in training classes over the years and the trainers I know and respect will not allow puppies/dogs that share a home to train in the same class. They don't want the distractions of having the buddy/housemate near-by and they don't want to encourage the kind of over reliance often seen in housemates, especially when the housemates in question are as close in age as yours are.

I have seen show handling classes where multiple dogs from the same home are training. But if the dogs were young/green and frustrated by the separation, the owners/handlers were asked to only bring one at a time so they could work on independence without the distraction of the other dog to contend with. Seasoned dogs have experience training/showing with housemates and don't carry on if a buddy they live with is training/showing in a neighboring ring. But, in my experience, those dogs were trained separately to begin with. They were given the time to learn the ropes before being asked to concentrate on the training even with the distraction of a housemate nearby. 

So, my concern would be working with a trainer who didn't suggest separate classes before suggesting a piece of correction equipment. It sounds like your younger puppy hasn't been taught how to ignore your older puppy. Why use a correction tool like a prong when you haven't trained the behavior you want first? 
Sheilah


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

You can always go with the plastic prong to make yourself feel better about it. It still has similar aim but is plastic and doesn't look spiky like a prong.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

Thank you Sheilah for that well thought out explanation, it makes me feel a lot better about the choice to have the puppy in classes of his own!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Set your pup up to succeed and then praise him for it. 

By taking two youngsters to the same class you set the dog up to fail. You may not have realized that. Not all dogs would have been frustrated and itching to go and do with you, just most of them. So it is really a not so good idea to have the two in the same class. Punishing the dog for this at this point is, I think, not a good suggestion.

Having your boy friend get more exciting, teaching the pup stuff on the outside, lots of treats, lots of praise so the puppy is getting good attention and is not focussed on what you are doing with the older dog, is an idea.

Would I switch trainers because they made a suggestion I disagree with? It depends. If I was afraid to ignore or state why I choose not to do what they are suggesting, then yes, switch trainers -- that wouldn't be a respectful trainer/student relationship. If the suggestion makes you feel distrustful of the trainer's knowledge or skill and you feel that it will impede your ability to learn from the trainer, than finish the set of classes and do not sign up again.

My trainer suggests prongs a lot, and the students pretty much all use them. Except me. And I am ok with that. She is the most knowledgeable trainer around here, and has the most experience, and is the most accomplished. I find that I have to have a reason NOT to accept her recommendation/advice, where with most trainers that I have dealt with, I have to have a reason (understand why and how they are trying to accomplish whatever it is) to accept what it is they are saying.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I had a pair of pups (3 years difference in age) that I trained at the same time. Our routine at home (after food & toilet) oldest did obedience lesson of a few minutes while youngster watched. The oldest tethered while youngster did obedience work. Then two dogs and human went for a short walk.
I also took both dogs to the same class, working them first one, then the other, then switch again for a few rotations. Kept a long class session fresh for both dogs. 

But regarding whether or not to use the prong --if you don't want to use it, don't use it. End of that. I was going to say "end of discussion" but in my experience it isn't. If I don't want to use recommended equipment, I've found myself challenged repeatedly. So a great opportunity to practice saying "no."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have trained two in the same class, but since it is just me out there, I left one back in the crate in the vehicle, and half-way through switched dogs. My dogs get zero attention for barking in the car, and they quickly learn to stay quiet in the vehicle -- good travelers. 

But that is hard if you are in a less-safe area and cannot keep a close watch on the vehicle, especially with a baby-puppy. And if the vehicle is that close, then, the pup will hear what is going on, and try to chime in making everyone miserable.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

If I didn't want to listen to what the says trainer, I wouldn't go to class there.


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## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I went to the puppy class with a different trainer today and only my youngest puppy, and he did fantastic! He was working through the distractions of the other puppies like a pro. It's looking like he will be in this puppy class until he ages out and his own breed handling class.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Personally, I would just be picking another class. One that my older dog was not in as well. Then as the puppy gets older try again for the same class. But right now it's not fair to the puppy.
> 
> You have had good success with this trainer with your older dog, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just take separate classes.


I got to here and agree with that. I might ask the trainer after class if s/he can elaborate on why the prong at such a young age and the specifics of how it would help your puppy.

I had a prong on my puppy when she was younger than 17 weeks, but we were instructed on proper fit, use, and conditioning.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Mikki said:


> I didn't start this thread over whether or not a prong collar for a puppy this young was okay-there are enough threads on that already, but rather to ask what my next move should be. I am not comfortable with the idea. For a little more background, every single dog in this class wears a prong (I have no problem with my older dog, because she's older and I believe needs one at the moment). The other dogs are all older. I am under the impression that the trainer may not be familiar with alternatives because she jumped right to the prong/pinch collar. This is not a puppy/pet obedience class it is a class for competitive obedience. We all pitch in to rent the ring and get some time in the ring with the trainer to work on whatever we want. Everybody sits and watches each other to learn from one another. After getting it all in writing and being able to vent a little, I think I'm just going to do my own research for what collar I want to use and show up to class next week with that.


When we got Leo (our 1st pup from week 6), around month 3 or 4, we saw the brattiness pop up and we looked up a reputable trainer via the American Dog Training Assoc. (https://apdt.com/) and she was, odd, to say the least. Told us historical significance of dog training, how to give treats to Leo, to definitely NEVER let Leo and Shane (14 year old Sr. GSD) meet or interact, and to keep Leo on either a Martingale, pinch, or prong collar. She never touched Leo, who was still in his ex-pen, and appeared to be frightened of him (he was like 25# or so and sitting nicely, showing off his GSD Training Center of Chicago--GSDTCC-- training). We paid her and showed her the door after she peddled her organic food and treats and tools. We got our current trainer (and our original board and train trainer) from our vet (and also 2 people from our GSDTCC and a trainer at our vet)...we LOVE her! We were told our application of positive training would take longer (by both her and people at the GSDTCC) and we were cool with that---and it has taken longer (at age 1, he is 95% at where we want him to be, training wise, walk wise, and stranger-interact wise), but to us, well worth it. 

I would go with your gut; if the training is not what you like, find someone who jives with how *you* and *your pups* want to learn and train. Ask your other training mates if they do outside training and who they have been recommended to. 

Also--awesome on the new class instructor! There are great trainers out there---glad you found one!!! 

Good luck!


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