# Being purposefully disobedient... pre-trial worries.



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I posted this in another thread regarding handling disobedience, when the dog is wilfully disobeying you even when it knows how to perform the command properly. The best comment IMO in that thread was to "put up"/isolate the dog, which I started doing. However it doesn't seem to be helping, though it is early days yet.

Here is my post from the other thread.

I thought it might be best to post a new thread here to solicit advice and perhaps remedy this within the week. My BH trial is next Saturday April 14th.



pfitzpa1 said:


> I have this "problem" with my dog. 90% of the time she is fine but if she is really full of beans and playful she will disobey me and try and engage me in play. What happens is that when I put her in a long down and walk away (30 ft) she will wait until my back is turned and get up and walk around sniffing stuff. When this happens (this is what I was doing) I would walk back to the spot (silently) point at the ground and ignore her. She tries to get me to chase her by play bowing and her "play with me" bark but I ignore her. She would eventually come back and lie back in her spot and not budge the second time. I thought this was a good tactic for dealing with this but she still does it occasionally, so I don't think it is effective (it has helped to some point). This is a little frustrating for me because we are doing BH trial in a few weeks and I can just see her doing this during her long down. Generally if I let her run around and go nuts for a little bit before hand she is less likely to do it, but still not 100%.
> What I have started doing now is that if she does this, I will load her up into the truck immediately and leave for a walk by myself for about 10-20 minutes, while she is alone in the truck. I've had to do this twice in the past few days. The first time, a few days ago, (I put her in a long down at the entrance to the dog park and she has to ignore all dogs and stay while I disappear out of site for about 3 minutes). (I know she can do this as we have done it often before) She broke the down after a few seconds, after which I put her in the truck and went for a walk. After I returned I attempted the long down again and this time she was perfect, A small dog came over to her and attempted to engage her, hopping and barking at her and she didn't budge. I disappeared for 3 minutes and she was happily waiting for me in the down position when I returned.
> This morning it happened again. We had just done a bit of play with another dog, then some tracking and were about to dry run the BH. My buddy was up first so I put Maggie in a long down and she broke it as soon as my back was turned. Again with the "I wanna play" routine. This time I put her in the truck, went back and watched my buddy do his routine, out of view, we chatted for a bit and I drove home and she is now in her cage for a few hours.
> 
> ...


This method might take longer than I thought. I did the dog park entrance long down yesterday and she was perfect. This time old lady with a small black puppy on a retractable leash went over to maggie and the little dog was jumping and practically walking over Maggie. She never skipped a beat and stayed perfectly in position. I thought to myself, wow that really worked!!

Then this morning our club were doing dry runs for the BH, Maggie performed the routine extremely well but while she was in the long down, she got up and moved twice. I was 30 ft away with my back to her. Again she attempted to lure me into playing with her. Now I'm worried she'll do the same at the trial next week. I just can't figure out what is the trigger that makes her behave perfectly in one case and act like a brat the next. 
I have tried exercising her before the long down so she has less energy (which seems to help a little) but results vary.


Any advice appreciated


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I would take a different approach than putting the dog up and ending my session. When a dog understands the "down / stay" command and breaks the down is very serious to me. I use "down" for lie down and "platz" means "down and stay, DO NOT MOVE!" There are several improtant reasons to have a very reliable down /say. First off, in your training for the BH; unless the rest of your OB is absolutely perfect it is hard to pass the BH when the dog breaks the long down. Next this lack of obedience in the down will filter through to other areas of your training. The dog will down properly on articles in tracking and the down before the escape bite will also be problematic. I assume you are planning on doing SchH? The down stay or "platz: command can also be a life saving tool, in the even the dog bolts towards traffice for example.

Here is how I would train it. First, I would teach the down and stay off the field. At home while watching TV. In my yard then at fields with increasing distractions. I would then begin training it during my normal OB at the club. 

I place a stake tie out in the ground and run a long line through it and attach the line to the dogs collar. The dog is placed in a down about a foot away from the "stake out" in the ground. I walk away, a few feet at first then over several training sessions I increas the distance to 30' or more. If the dog moves or goes to get up it is instantly corrected by a strong leash correction and the down command is reinforced. The dog is never allowed to move from this spot and never has the opportunity to break the down stay. The dog remains on the long line for each training session until it is 110% reliable. Then a second person monitors the dog and long line when I am out of site. 

I do not start this until the dog already understands the down and stay and is ready for distractions and proofing. Keep in mind that your dog will need to remain in the down / stay for almost 10 minutes while the other dog does it's heeling and OB routine. IMHO, you will not achieve this by putting the dog up or isolating the dog. If the dog breaks and "wants to play" bring it back to the exact spot and put it into a down and make it stay. Your dog may not be ready to be off leash for this exercise at this point if this happens. 

I believe in positive, motivational training but there must be a consequence for disobedience. If your dog understands the command and refuses to do it, there is an issue. If your dog is confused take a step back in training and put the leash on. This is one of those things where there is no grey areas,, only black and white. Do not allow your dog to break the down again and be prepared to enforce it INSTANTLY. 

Jim


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It does not sound like your dog has a reliable long down and you are letting her get away with it. The way you put it, she stays only if she feels like it and if she doesn't there are no consequences for it.

I would highly suggest you start proofing this exercise and correct her for breaking it. Start with very low level distractions so she has a chance of success and then be sure to praise her a lot for doing it right. You can always return to her in training while she's on a stay to reward her with a treat and then leave her again. With success you can gradually increase the level of distractions, the time down, and the distance you are from her.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks slamdunc/elaine for the suggestions. I think my lack of corrections started because initially I was correcting the down while on leash and she got pretty good at it. Then I transitioned to off leash and she stayed pretty good at it. However recently she has been opting to break the down (off leash) in order to try and play. In this situation I can't correct immediately because I still want her to come to me when I call and I can't issue a correction after she willingly comes to me.
So I started back doing long downs, on leash. This way I can make the correction as soon as I can get back to the dog. I did this in the park (quiet field) and she did fine after I corrected her twice. She stayed in a long down for about 15 minutes. I did a 10 minute off leash long down as well which she did perfectly.
Then this evening I sat in the driveway sipping a few beers with Maggie on a long leash in a long down at the edge of the sidewalk. I had to make 2 initial corrections and then she was good for about the 40 minutes we stayed there. People and dogs wandered by on the sidewalk and she did not move. I did return to her every 7-8 minutes and dropped a small treat between her front paws.
I'll continue with this and also proofing at the trial/training grounds and see how it goes.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

40 minutes is way too long to expect her to stay put even with you returning to her from time to time. I would go back to on-leash stays with the distractions so you can immediately get in the corrections she needs. When she's ready for proofing off-leash, try it in contained areas like hockey rinks or tennis courts. That way if she breaks, you do not call her back to you. You mark her break then walk her down, and collar correct her all the way back to her spot and then correct her back down.

When I'm talking about distractions, I'm talking distractions. Try running around her, stepping over her, rolling her ball on the ground in front of her, have other dogs circle her, gently pull on her leash just until she resists. Do stays in the house. Put her on a stay in the kitchen while you go sit in another room. If you do sit stays, she's guaranteed to break if you do it on the bed. Do start easy and then make it harder.

Stays are hands-down the easiest exercise to teach a dog as there is no thinking required on the dog's part to do it. They don't have to worry about position or speed or anything else; it's black and white: do not move until you return.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

_*In this situation I can't correct immediately because I still want her to come to me when I call and I can't issue a correction after she willingly comes to me.*_

That is part of the problem. If nothing else I would have along line attached to her collar and "catch" her or grab the lead. I would not call her back for exactly the reason that you mention. I would go and get her and bring her back to the spot and put her back into the down firmly. I also would not being doing 40 minute long downs and rewarding her periodically. I think that is just to long for a dog at this level. 

Here is your other issue:
*So I started back doing long downs, on leash. This way I can make the correction as soon as I can get back to the dog. I did this in the park (quiet field) and she did fine after I corrected her twice. She stayed in a long down for* about 15 minutes

Ok, please don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to be rude, just to the point. You should not have needed to get back to the dog to deliver the correction. You should have had the leash in your hand the entire time. you can use a 30' long line or make a 50' check cord. Having to go back to the dog loses the critical tming needed to deliver an effective correction. This is a training essential. You must always have the ability to enforce any command in any sitaution instantly and praise and reward instantly when correct. If you have to "get the dog", "go to the dog" or anything else you have skipped steps and are not prepared for that training session. The other problem you have is your corrections or lack of effective corrections. The first correction should have resolved this issue and the second correction should not have been needed. If you had to give two corrections, the first correction was either not strong enough or not delivered effectively. The first correction should have made the dog down and not want to move until released. 

This is not a difficult exercise to teach a dog. However, it seems you may be sending mixed signals to the dog. The down / stay is not play time and the dog needs to understand that. You need to be firm and correct the dog appropriately. The best thing to do would to be ask some very skilled club members how to properly deliver a correction as well as praise and reward. 

I see this often with new people to the sport and new K-9 handlers. I hope I haven't offended you as that is not my intention. I'm just trying to shorten the learning curve and avoid you making the same mistakes I did 15 or more years ago.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Elaine,
We posted at the same time but you are spot on.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> 40 minutes is way too long to expect her to stay put even with you returning to her from time to time. I would go back to on-leash stays with the distractions so you can immediately get in the corrections she needs. When she's ready for proofing off-leash, try it in contained areas like hockey rinks or tennis courts. That way if she breaks, you do not call her back to you. You mark her break then walk her down, and collar correct her all the way back to her spot and then correct her back down.
> 
> When I'm talking about distractions, I'm talking distractions. Try running around her, stepping over her, rolling her ball on the ground in front of her, have other dogs circle her, gently pull on her leash just until she resists. Do stays in the house. Put her on a stay in the kitchen while you go sit in another room. If you do sit stays, she's guaranteed to break if you do it on the bed. Do start easy and then make it harder.
> 
> Stays are hands-down the easiest exercise to teach a dog as there is no thinking required on the dog's part to do it. They don't have to worry about position or speed or anything else; it's black and white: do not move until you return.


I threw a large piece of cheese on the sidewalk about 2 feet in front of her a short while after I had made the initial 2 corrections (the first time she sat up, the second time she turned around to face me). She didn't go for the cheese nor did she stand up when the neighbor came over and petted her. She didn't react to the people walking right by her nose nor the dogs they had either. 

Similarly I have had her in down stays with other dogs practically walking over her and she does not move until I return. When she is good she is very solid. It's the occasional complete break of the down stay that I'm trying to fix. It's almost like she gets bored when nothing is happening and forgets she is in a down stay. When there are lots of distractions she behaves much better. 
That has been the most frustrating part. 

In my local dog park for instance I will put her in a down stay at the edge of the offleash (non fenced) zone and I will walk down to the other end of the park and disappear out of view for a few minutes. She never breaks this down 100% (this is where I taught her the offleash down stay) even though dogs are wandering around her sniffing at her etc. She will wait for me to come back, sit when I tell her and then I release.

At the dog park entrance near the training field, it is about 95%, on the training field while waiting for a bh routine to complete, it used to be 100% but lately (in the last week or so) has become about 50%.

I really need to proof her in the locations I know she is having issues with.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> _*In this situation I can't correct immediately because I still want her to come to me when I call and I can't issue a correction after she willingly comes to me.*_
> 
> That is part of the problem. If nothing else I would have along line attached to her collar and "catch" her or grab the lead. I would not call her back for exactly the reason that you mention. I would go and get her and bring her back to the spot and put her back into the down firmly. I also would not being doing 40 minute long downs and rewarding her periodically. I think that is just to long for a dog at this level.
> 
> ...


No offense taken, I'm always open to constructive advice.

How do I make a correction on a 50' leash, surely any correction would be ineffective at that range. The first correction I made was when she sat up. She didn't move from the spot, just sat up. At this point she was tied to the fence on a 6ft leash. I was about 20' away, walked back to her , she was still in the original spot, just sitting, and pushed her down by the scruff of the neck, issued the command again and praised her. The second time was identical, however I was about 100' away at the time. She sat up as I came back into view from behind a fence. I walked over and issued a much stronger correction which was the last one she needed. After that we did offleash down stay , with me about 40 ft away with my back turned to her which she did perfectly.

If I just stand beside her she will stay down for as long as I am there.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If she's breaking when she's bored, down her in the kitchen and you go in the next room and sound like you are having a great time.

I still say that you need to be much more into proofing with distractions as most people have a terrible time really understanding how to do them. I guarantee that I could get your dog to break with you by her side and that's only using fair distractions. The point to distractions is to get the dog to make a mistake so you can correct her. It doesn't have to be a huge correction or a huge mistake, but a mistake none the less. She doesn't learn anything if she's not corrected for making a mistake. Be very sure to really lay on the praise and reward when she does succeed though.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

pfitzpa1 said:


> How do I make a correction on a 50' leash, surely any correction would be ineffective at that range. The first correction I made was when she sat up. She didn't move from the spot, just sat up. At this point she was tied to the fence on a 6ft leash. I was about 20' away, walked back to her and pushed her down by the scruff of the neck, issued the command again and praised her. The second time was identical, however I was about 100' away at the time. She sat up as I came back into view from behind a fence. I walked over and issued a much stronger correction which was the last one she needed. After that we did offleash down stay , with me about 40 ft away with my back turned to her which she did perfectly.
> 
> If I just stand beside her she will stay down for as long as I am there.


Have you discovered the wonderful world of markers? both positive and negative? When you are at a distance you can give your dog a negative marker so that they understand why they are being corrected once you get back.

Pushing her down by the scruff of the neck is not a correction. Moving on a stay is a collar correction and if she continues to break, you need a harder collar correction.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Have you discovered the wonderful world of markers? both positive and negative? When you are at a distance you can give your dog a negative marker so that they understand why they are being corrected once you get back.
> 
> Pushing her down by the scruff of the neck is not a correction. Moving on a stay is a collar correction and if she continues to break, you need a harder collar correction.


You mean like "bad dog" or "Phooey"/"nein"? as the negative marker?

What do you define as the correction being hard. Is it the level of pain the dog experiences or the level of "shock" (as in surprise)? Because she really reacts to my scruff of the neck correction if I really mean it.


Thanks for the input BTW.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Have you discovered the wonderful world of markers? both positive and negative? When you are at a distance you can give your dog a negative marker so that they understand why they are being corrected once you get back.
> 
> Pushing her down by the scruff of the neck is not a correction. Moving on a stay is a collar correction and if she continues to break, you need a harder collar correction.


On hindsight, I remember actually doing this back when I first started the long down. From a distance if I issued a "no/bad dog/some negative sound" then she would self correct and lie back down and I have lost the opportunity to make a physical correction.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

A negative marker is something you use consistently to mark the exact moment your dog went wrong. It can be a "no" but I prefer a much faster sound like "ack". It doesn't matter what you use so long as it's fast and short and you use it consistently so the dog knows what it means. These are super effective once you start doing anything where you are more than a few feet from your dog.

Corrections must be unemotional so your dog doesn't associate you as the cause of their pain, instead they take it as a response to what they did or didn't do. Scruffing your dog is totally inappropriate and ineffective as a proper correction as it's very physical and emotional. Always, always, always use a leash and collar for corrections - unless you are using an ecollar.

I get the feeling that you don't know how to give a proper correction when you say you are scruffing your dog and you don't know what a harder correction means. Do you understand how to give snap collar corrections and that they can be mild or hard?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

pfitzpa1 said:


> On hindsight, I remember actually doing this back when I first started the long down. From a distance if I issued a "no/bad dog/some negative sound" then she would self correct and lie back down and I have lost the opportunity to make a physical correction.


Wrong. You marked it wrong so it was wrong and you go back and correct. What she does after you marked it doesn't matter. By marking and not going back to correct, your marker lost all meaning to her and you lost your position in her eyes and that's why she stays only when she feels like it.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> A negative marker is something you use consistently to mark the exact moment your dog went wrong. It can be a "no" but I prefer a much faster sound like "ack". It doesn't matter what you use so long as it's fast and short and you use it consistently so the dog knows what it means. These are super effective once you start doing anything where you are more than a few feet from your dog.
> 
> Corrections must be unemotional so your dog doesn't associate you as the cause of their pain, instead they take it as a response to what they did or didn't do. Scruffing your dog is totally inappropriate and ineffective as a proper correction as it's very physical and emotional. Always, always, always use a leash and collar for corrections - unless you are using an ecollar.
> 
> I get the feeling that you don't know how to give a proper correction when you say you are scruffing your dog and you don't know what a harder correction means. Do you understand how to give snap collar corrections and that they can be mild or hard?


When I tie down Maggie I always use the dead ring (just force of habit for when she's riding in the back of the truck), maybe I should go back to the live ring for long downs. I have no problem doing a snap collar hard/soft correction, though I've done it mostly for correcting bad behavior rather than for correcting training issues, it's just not terribly easy to do when one end of the leash is tied to a fence, however a longer leash would probably solve that. 

What type of snap correction do you issue, for platz/down?

I've always heard/read it must be in the downward direction. I've seen guys in the club drive their dogs heads into the ground while correcting the platz by stomping on the leash/chain. This never seemed effective to me, at least in creating a sharp platz. I never did this with Maggie and her platzs are 100% and like lightning.

I agree the scruff method is probably emotional, at least that's how I feel Maggie reacts when I do it to her in a hard fashion. Normally when I do it it's a gentle correction, for example when she is in a down stay during our dinnertime. If she moves then I bring her back to her original position and gently put her back down with a little shaking scruff of the neck correction. I think I picked that one up from the Monks of Skete book. It's always been useful when there was no collar/leash on the dog, she's pretty much nude when she's at home.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Wrong. You marked it wrong so it was wrong and you go back and correct. What she does after you marked it doesn't matter. By marking and not going back to correct, your marker lost all meaning to her and you lost your position in her eyes and that's why she stays only when she feels like it.


Interesting, that could be the root of my problem. I think I was going off the idea that if the dog made a mistake and figured out how to correct it, that was a good thing. But I guess me marking it is not really the dog figuring it out, rather the dog reacting to avoid the correction?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If your dog is breaking then you have moved too quickly in the training. Put her on a 15' long line and stand maybe 6' away facing her. Mark the behavior when she is correct and go back, give her a treat, and move away again. Build on distance and time slowly. Far easier to teach stationary exercises slowly than to have to go back and correct the dog. I also use opposition reflex type ways to proof my dogs (putting first light and then stronger tension on the line in an attempt to pull the dog out of position). I do this first on a fursaver and later on the pinch. Anyhow, except in an extreme case I have never had to use an overly strong correction for the long down. Strong corrections can create issues of avoidance where the dog runs away from the handler, zips around, tries to play, etc. My normal correction is a "no" and then taking the dog back and asking for the down. I will also use a word (a bridge?) to let my dog know it is correct from a distance but I can stay where I am. 

So, step back and retrain your long down. The upcoming BH shouldn't make you want to rush your training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with Lisa on this. If the long down is not reliable, the basics have been rushed. 

Another thing you can do is hold a small hand mirror when you are standing in front of her with your back turned, so you can keep an eye on her. As soon as she tries to move, use a verbal correction. Reinforce the Platz, or use No!, or Eh-eh!!!, whatever your dog knows. Correct when she is just thinking of getting up, watch her and be ready. 

Because right now, by the time you become aware that she has broken her platz and you are moving towards her to correct, her mind is somewhere other than the long down, and now your approaching her is positive attention, and something more interesting than holding a platz, so her bad behaviour gets rewarded and reinforced.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

pfitzpa1 said:


> When I tie down Maggie I always use the dead ring (just force of habit for when she's riding in the back of the truck), maybe I should go back to the live ring for long downs. I have no problem doing a snap collar hard/soft correction, though I've done it mostly for correcting bad behavior rather than for correcting training issues, it's just not terribly easy to do when one end of the leash is tied to a fence, however a longer leash would probably solve that.
> 
> What type of snap correction do you issue, for platz/down?
> 
> ...


Jeez, no! If I saw anyone drive their dog's head into the ground for a correction, I would pack up and never come back. If this is the sort of training you are getting at your club, I am terribly sorry for you.

Collar corrections should always be done in the direction you want your dog to move, so in this case it would be toward the ground. This is a snap correction with your hands, not your feet, and always on the live ring. 

If you have to tie your dog up, it should be on a much longer line so the dog doesn't think she's tied up.

Stop with the scruffing and lose the Monks of New Skete book. If you are going to be training, even in the house, put a collar on her. Put a jerk lead on it if you don't want to have her drag a leash. My own puppy wears a buckle collar so I have something to grab if needed at home. If I'm going to do any training, I put his pinch collar on him. When he gets older and is reliable in his training, he will be naked like my other dogs.

I really think you need to go back to doing distractions, on-leash, by your dog's side, in order to really get a more solid stay before doing anything else.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Jeez, no! If I saw anyone drive their dog's head into the ground for a correction, I would pack up and never come back. If this is the sort of training you are getting at your club, I am terribly sorry for you.


No need to be sorry for me, I too cringe when I see it happen but it isn't the norm. Not everyone at the club does this and it's not part of the training, it's just something you will see people do occasionally when they get frustrated with their dogs. Unfortunately nobody/rarely corrects the owner when this happens. We had one lady bring a 1.5 yr old shepherd to our club one day. She was a breeder and had just got this female from another breeder. The female was completely untrained. The lady beat her dog into submission, it was sad to see but nobody did anything about it (at least not at the time, I never saw her again so maybe one of the senior members did say something later). A little later in the session, someone suggested something to her and she got all angry, and she shouted "Don't tell me how to train my dog" at the person.
It was my second week at the club, but I saw enough good stuff there to stick around.

Unfortunately our club doesn't have a cohesive training philosophy, everyone trains their own dogs their own way and even the club heads have different training styles (at least in obedience) Bitework is very consistent as it is usually managed by 2 guys with same philosophy..
I think the club attitude is that people come and go, only the serious people who train their dogs well will stick around for the long run.



Elaine said:


> I really think you need to go back to doing distractions, on-leash, by your dog's side, in order to really get a more solid stay before doing anything else.


Yeah, I'm going bask to basics and a firmer hand. Thx.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Maggie passed both BH and AD this morning. She did great. Her long down was solid as a rock. Thanks to all for helping me get her back on track.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good going. Congratulations.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Way to go! Congratulations, that is a nice accomplishment.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Reinforce the Platz, or use No!, or Eh-eh!!!, whatever your dog knows. Correct when she is just thinking of getting up, watch her and be ready.
> 
> .


I was just watching an IPO1 video and I noticed one bite routine where the dog was put in Platz, the handler goes behind a blind and the dog is expected to chase/bite the handler when he attempts to escape.

Is the handler giving the dog a command to chase, or is the dog purposefully breaking the platz in this case? (it wasn't obvious from the video)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

In the old rules, the dog is guarding the decoy, so when the decoy runs, the dog is supposed to chase and bite, no command is given. The protection routine is always the same in SchH, so the dogs know when they are supposed to hold their platz, and when they are supposed to watch and go. 

With the new IPO rules, the dog is given a command to go after the decoy. Part of the reason for the new rules is exactly because of the inconsistency in training (long platz - not allowed to move, protection platz, dog decides to break the down on their own). 

With the new rules, the dog is not supposed to make that decision on their own, but shows that they are still taking direction from their handler.


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