# DDR Year 2 - what to expect?



## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

All, I'm looking for some recommendations on what to expect in this next year. My boy is a DDR dog who just turned a year old. It has been one heck of a year. I feel like we've just sailed through a hurricane and finally come out in one piece, if missing a few bits of sanity, LOL. I am new to working dogs, DDR dogs and dogs in general and frankly, probably bit off more than I could chew with this dog. But, here we are, still alive, and within just the last few weeks since turning one he seems to have magically turned into a calmer dog. His obedience has also really turned up a notch - it's like he suddenly got more focused, more calm and more aware of what's going on around him. It's absolutely glorious. :grin2:

But along with that he's developed some seriousness. Or is _seriousness_ the right word? He has previously loved every person he's met (except for other dogs.) Over the past couple of months he's been slowly becoming more suspicious of certain things though, particularly people. He started with alerting/barking at random night sounds, then progressed to becoming reactive when startled - if one of us comes to bed late he gets in our face, if we come into the yard without announcing ourselves he gets defensive and the other day we had a friend come over and he became defensive when we let the friend in through the front door. He also got aggressive with the vet recently and he seems to be getting more suspicious of people on walks. He barks, growls and the hackles come up. For a couple of days earlier this week he would react (come out into the hall and bark, growl) any time one of us came in through the garage or front door, but he seems to have worked out that he needs to look and see who it is before he gets cranky. 

In these scenarios we've launched immediately into obedience/training exercises to try to help bring him a sense of control/stability. There has been no praise or scolding over the behavior, more of a redirection into another activity. It takes a little to get his focus shifted over to the obedience, but it does seem to help calm him. I'd love to offer a treat or favorite toy to give an association of positive reward with whatever scary thing startled him, but it seems I never have the treat nearby when the moment happens. The breeder has suggested that he has quite a few serious dogs in his line, so he thinks we are likely seeing the "serious" side of him start to mature. It's actually rather interesting to watch him work through these situations and reason it out for himself, and it makes me so proud when I don't have to redirect him and he works it out for himself. But ideally, I would like to see better discernment on his part before he reacts. 

Any advice for what to look out for with the serious side of things or what skills to really work on during DDR year 2? Are there suggestions for ways to help him learn to differentiate friend from foe or is this something that will settle into place as his brain continues to mature? He doesn't do a lot of meet and greet with people, but we do go on daily walks and see other dogs/people while we're walking. Sometimes he's reactive to other dogs on the leash, sometimes not - this is a behavior that has been steadily improving. I'm not looking for him to be an overly friendly dog, but I would like to be able to trust him to be calm around other people unless provoked. He's otherwise always been fairly unflappable...strange sounds, cars, fireworks, guns etc don't seem to bother him.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

This older thread has some suggestions:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/124865-ddr-temperament-help.html


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Mary Beth, thanks! I also found a thread here too (in case anyone else is interested): http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/308241-ddr-slow-mature-2.html

I think what I'm reading in general is that this phase is the beginning of my dog's maturity stage and that may last awhile...6 months or a year or even longer, depending on how he develops. It also sounds like it's pretty normal for them to bark, be suspicious and be a little "obnoxious" at this stage, because they're feeling these defensive instincts but don't really know what to do with them yet. It sounds like as he matures the discernment will come and one of the best things I can do now is not "push" him one way or the other in those situations.

Doubling down on the training has definitely been a big help and I think I'll work on expanding that to add more complexity. 

It's difficult being a first-timer to know what is something to freak out over and something to just take in stride. The puppy phase was so hard - general GSD advice was somewhat helpful, regular dog advice was relatively useless (ie, my dad's golden retriever advice was simply not applicable) but ultimately, figuring out the "individual" dog here has honestly been one of the hardest things I've done in my life. He plays hard. He loves with a heart that is bottomless. He is so independent and intelligent that learning to "lead" a dog like this has been a tremendous undertaking. And yet he is often still a clueless, run-into-walls excited puppy who just wants to chase a ball that sometimes I just have to shake my head. Even my toddler isn't this hard, LOL. But the change in his maturity level recently has been so quick, it feels a little unsettling. On one hand it's like, "omigosh, I was waiting for this!" On the other it's like "oh crap, now what do I do..."

I just want to make sure I keep learning and working to make us both the best we can be.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Do you have a pedigree that you can post? 

This sounds to me more of a temperament issue than a "DDR" or type issue. From what I can gather from your original post, this very well could be a nerve issue. I would focus more on the temperament of your dog than what to expect from a "DDR" dog. I would like to see his pedigree as that may give some insight and there may be far less "DDR" influence in your dog than you think. This sounds like a genetic issue with nerves, not a "type" issue. If that makes sense. 

At this age your dog raising his hackles around people says something to me.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

Pedigree was discussed here at an earlier date:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-thoughts-personal-protection-training-2.html

I have a litter mate so I am following along with interest. It has been interesting to compare their similarities and differences.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> But along with that he's developed some seriousness. Or is seriousness the right word? He has previously loved every person he's met (except for other dogs.) Over the past couple of months he's been slowly becoming more suspicious of certain things though, particularly people. He started with alerting/barking at random night sounds, then progressed to becoming reactive when startled - if one of us comes to bed late he gets in our face, if we come into the yard without announcing ourselves he gets defensive and the other day we had a friend come over and he became defensive when we let the friend in through the front door. He also got aggressive with the vet recently and he seems to be getting more suspicious of people on walks. He barks, growls and the hackles come up. For a couple of days earlier this week he would react (come out into the hall and bark, growl) any time one of us came in through the garage or front door, but he seems to have worked out that he needs to look and see who it is before he gets cranky.


To me, there's nothing good about your own dog challenging you like that. That's what I'd call a kennel dog. There's probably some that would look at it as a "serious" "real protection" "That ain't no sport dog" type. But I'd start thinking right now about how to live with a dog like that once those behaviors escalate and he bites you for trying to go to bed.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

With unwanted barking behavior the command is Enough! Teach it and enforce it. This is a one year old puppy. In my (brief) experience is the magic change comes around age 2.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

I have a question for the OP. Have you been doing any personal protection work with this dog recently? If not, could there possibly be situations where your dog is at home unsupervised and there are unfamiliar people (meter readers or foolish teenagers) that come into his territory? Maybe your dog has had a negative experience with strangers that has caused him to become more suspicious of people in general. I find it odd that a puppy which you describe as previously "loving everyone he meets" becomes suspicious of people to the degree that you describe, without there being an influencing event.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

This is a genetic and temperament issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly. The dog needs to be reinforced for correct behavior and corrected strongly for inappropriate aggression. The barking and the hackles going up are signs of insecurity. 
@Nurse Bishop this behavior is far more complicated than "Enough." There is no magic change with a nerve issue, only management as Steve Strom is alluding too. 

As @Steve Strom correctly points out there is nothing good about this right now. AS of now this is not a serious PPD, nor should it be. Perhaps, with a lot of work this dog will be a nice, stable family member. IPO training may help, not protection training. This may be a breeding where drives overwhelm nerve nerve strength and that gives you a dog that is insecure and can't control his nerves. 

When nerve threshold is lower than drives you have issues. Can you correct this or teach this dog how to behave? Absolutely! Will it take work, patience and being open to learning, you bet it will. 

As Steve is alluding too and not saying, don't believe the people that say this dog is a "real dog" or perfect for PPD. The nerves simply don't support that nonsense. Please don't confuse temperament issues with a "serious" personal protection dog.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

is there a "DDR year 1 - what to expect " thread?


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> At this age your dog raising his hackles around people says something to me.


What kind of behaviors would you expect from an average maturing dog at this age? 

From a temperament standpoint I've never considered him particularly nervy, but I'm basing that on an understanding that a nervy dog would have difficulty dealing with/reacting to new situations. It's possible I don't grasp the whole concept. He doesn't show fear or aversion to sounds - cars, trucks, dump trucks, sirens, jake brakes, guns, fireworks, the drag racers on our street, air compressors, car horns, fog horns, etc don't bother him. He's been exposed to them all and could care less. The night barking lasted for a short period from about 9-10 months and doesn't happen anymore. He is pretty independent - he prefers to be in the house with us, but doesn't freak if we put him outside for a couple of hours to do his own thing. Never shown any reaction to bikes, joggers, wheelchairs, kids etc. On walks these days his ears come up and he is curious, but doesn't get aggressive to people on walks - yet. Riding in the car was never an issue and doesn't seem to have any issues if we change up the walk, drive to a different neighborhood, etc. 

Two main issues he's had: 

Other dogs - he was originally pretty outgoing and gradually became more leash aggressive. Through training and exposure we've worked a lot of that out...he still reacts occasionally, but it's extremely minimal. For training, I worked strongly on IGNORING the other animals we encountered. This had a huge impact on him and he started ignoring them too. It's not perfect, but we walked by a lady with another GSD walking beside a man in a wheelchair a couple of weeks ago and passed within two feet of each other on a loose leash and he showed zero interest. That is a win in my book.

The vet's office - he hates it. He'll go in without much issue but once he gets locked in the room he gets upset. He hears/ smells things and wants to get at them. We work obedience in these situations and it calms him down. The recent vet visit where he got aggressive with the vet was the first time I've seen him show real people aggression.




Slamdunc said:


> The dog needs to be reinforced for correct behavior and corrected strongly for inappropriate aggression. The barking and the hackles going up are signs of insecurity.


I have thought about the insecurity side of this and yes, we are working to correct behaviors. Maybe we have not "corrected strongly?" We use an e-collar for most training but rarely need more than a tone. But when he is in these scenarios we go to obedience. He knows sit/stown/come/stay/place pretty solidly. In the couple of times he's come into the hall and barked when we came in the house, I made him "come" then made him go through a routine of sit/down. When he responds successfully (which in these situations he always did immediately) he gets praise. What would a strong correction look like in a scenario like at the vet or with a friend coming into the house? Would you have him in the e-collar?



Steve Strom said:


> That's what I'd call a kennel dog. There's probably some that would look at it as a "serious" "real protection" "That ain't no sport dog" type. But I'd start thinking right now about how to live with a dog like that once those behaviors escalate and he bites you for trying to go to bed.


He's not a kennel dog, if by that phrase you mean "never been socialized, left in a kennel all day, ignored." Our schedules are such that 3 days a week we are both at work during the day, so he does spend that time outside in the backyard. We ARE a working family who gets home between 5-6 pm on those days. The rest of the time one of us is home and he is with us constantly. We usually spend some time in the evening throwing a ball or playing tug. He gets his meals in the house in frozen kongs or tug-a-jugs, anything to give him something to work at. He's with us until we go to bed, usually cuddling on the couch or being a foot pillow, and occasionally (mostly on weekends or when my husband is gone) he sleeps on the bed with us - otherwise he sleeps in his crate. We get up sometime between 3-5 am to go for a 2-3 mile walk or run. He's with us until my husband leaves sometime around 7 or 8. In other words, we spend as much time with him as we spend with each other. 

We have no issues with him in the house or hanging around us - for a large part of the young puppy phase it was a constant battle to tame his energy, but in the last month or so his "off-switch" has been really superb, along with his focus during training. He hangs with my 3 year old and lets him chase him, pull on him, hang on him, etc and I am usually having to pull the child off the dog because he just takes it. He has even started doing special obedience commands just for his boy. If the boy wanders off, the dog follows to keep an eye on him. He has never shown any aggression toward my son.



Steve Strom said:


> To me, there's nothing good about your own dog challenging you like that.


Let me clarify a bit on the aggression, maybe I created some misconceptions here because I summarized.

The times I've come to bed late and he got in my face - I opened the bedroom door, he got in my face with lots of barking, but within a moment he realized it was me and went immediately into a submissive down posture. I don't think he was reacting aggressively to me, per se, but to the sound of someone coming down the hall in the dark when he did not expect someone to be there. I didn't have to correct him, he submitted on his own. We moved his crate into the foyer/living area and he doesn't have issues anymore, even when we get up and come down the hall in the dark. This seems like a sensory thing to me, where he can perceive who we are when he has some visual or audible clue but when he can't see us, he is not sure if it is friend or foe. 

The time my husband came into the backyard from the sideyard and he became defensive, it was like he didn't recognize my husband. He did not try to attack but stood his ground, hackles up, barking and growling. Husband tried to talk him down and he wasn't budging. I came outside and the distraction was enough to diffuse the moment. Afterward, we talked about this and thought he had somehow been startled but couldn't snap out of it without some kind of familiar stimulus. 

We had a friend come over a week or so ago and I had the dog on a leash because I just wasn't sure what would happen. Maybe I shouldn't have done that; he's met people at the door before and never had issues, but he hasn't been leashed. My husband met the friend at the door and my dog and I followed after he let the gentleman in. My dog saw the newcomer and began barking. I put him into a sit/down and he did that but continued to bark, so we started doing figure 8's in the kitchen with sit/down and when he wouldn't calm I put him into his crate. Once in the crate, he was fine, so it may have well have been a fear response. But if that's a nerve issue, why is it showing now instead of the dozen or more other times someone has come over in recent months?

The latest thing that happened is that there were two, maybe three days last week where he "woofed" at us when we came in from the garage. He came out into the hall, stood with head down and shoulders squared, and woofed before he could see who it was. When he saw us, he relaxed and was happy to see us. We've come and gone multiple times since then without the woofing or guard stance. He does still alert to any of us coming inside and will come see who it is, but there's no barking or other aggression stuff. 

I have not felt I was in a fight or flight situation, ever. I have felt annoyed that he's being obnoxious and misjudging the situation, but never felt like if I didn't "do something" quick he was going to hurt one of us. I do want to make sure there are no scenarios where that could be an issue. I don't have a problem increasing the corrections, and I don't have a problem accepting that there's a fear thing here that we need to work on. But I'm having trouble grasping why this is JUST starting to happen. If it was temperament shouldn't we have seen this before now? How does any dog "just know" how to handle these kinds of situations without some kind of exposure/socialization that teaches them this?



GSDguy4EVER said:


> I have a question for the OP. Have you been doing any personal protection work with this dog recently? If not, could there possibly be situations where your dog is at home unsupervised and there are unfamiliar people (meter readers or foolish teenagers) that come into his territory? Maybe your dog has had a negative experience with strangers that has caused him to become more suspicious of people in general. I find it odd that a puppy which you describe as previously "loving everyone he meets" becomes suspicious of people to the degree that you describe, without there being an influencing event.


Hmm. The backyard gate is padlocked and there is a 7 ft block wall around our property, so it's not likely people are coming into the yard to heckle him. We have had a dog walker coming for the last month to walk him during the days we're gone. She's never reported any aggression (she comes in the middle of the day when no one is home) and she is a positive method trainer. As far as I know she's never been involved in or shown interest in protection work. But I ultimately don't know because I'm not there. This is a good point to consider - we stopped the dog walker sessions a week ago just because of cost and we felt like we needed to try harder, which is also approximately the last time we had aggression issues. The vet is coming up again next week, so it will be an interesting thing to observe his behavior then.

We decided to leave all the protection training for later and just focus on obedience and being a puppy for now. He has a high ball drive. Ball is life. So we throw the ball a lot and he kills the ball every time. By that I mean he literally destroys the ball in a single session. I'm still trying to find indestructible balls! He plays a fierce game of tug but the minute I tell him to "drop it" he releases and sits back to wait for the next round. With tug he has no give in him...he will hang on until he is so tired he can't lift his head but he will not let go. The same goes for walks and runs and play. He will work as hard as you think you can work him and still be ready for more. 

He has been a beast to train. If I gave up a fraction of a millimeter, he would take advantage of it. Learning how to be a leader has been one thing, learning how to be _this_ dog's leader had been an exercise in complete frustration. Stubborn would be how I'd have described him before. In the last few weeks that entire picture has changed and he has become what I would call "compliant."


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

NewtonK9....from your further clarifications in last post, maybe I can help. I have owned and bred these lines in the past. I can picture your dog and have a “ feel” for his future development. Send me a pm. ( Give me a day or two to answer as I don’t visit this site daily anymore.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When I say Kennel dog, I'm talking about what Slam said. Management. That's not a dog I'd give a lot of free run too. At a year old, he KNOWs who you are. When they're clear headed,they know who's car pulls in the driveway. When you say "times" like that. I look at that as exactly what Jim pointed out. Nerves. As they mature, yeah, you're going to see the different pieces of their temperament kick in, the suspicion with different people. Territorial of their yard. But at a year old he's experienced all those situations with you enough that he shouldn't react like that. That's his nerves. At that moment he's not clear in the head.

The older he gets, the stronger the drives come up, maybe the nerves don't hold it together all the time. All I'm saying is you have to live with him, and I'd think in terms of management and limiting situations where he's going to "startle" or react aggressively first. I'd crate him at night too.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I have owned and raised a dog like this who turned out to be an exceptional dog. As a young dog, he definitely had an underlying insecurity which he took forward into a rage. The dog was people aggressive, handler aggressive and dog aggressive. I did a lot of work with the dog and HOT him to a SchH 3. The protection work helped him a lot as did all of our training and socialization. That dog would have been a nightmare in a family environment or a weak owner. 

I do not want anyone to think that I am knocking the OP's dog. There is no perfect dog in this world. My point was that the OP needs to focus on temperament and not so much the lines. The dog is what the dog is. The OP is certainly working with the dog and doing a nice job. It's a bump in the road that the OP needs to work out and manage. A dog like this will make you a better owner and a better handler. Dog's like this can teach us a lot.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Slambunk, about the Enough command I also said Teach it and *Reinforce it*. As with correction for disobeying a command he knows. You said the same thing worded differently. 

Slamdunk> "This is a genetic and temperament issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly. The dog needs to be reinforced for correct behavior and corrected strongly for inappropriate aggression. "


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

My bitch at a young age started making a snarly face when told to down. Just a brief snarly face then she would comply. She got corrected and she stopped doing it. Going to the e collar from the prong got me out of her face and perhaps she stopped associating me with the correction. But she stopped that in about a month. Maybe she grew out of it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Slam, this is an interesting concept of innate drives overcoming nerve.

I wonder is there any possibility that the Ops dog can not see well? Does she say something to the dog from down the dark hall or the other side of the door so he knows its you?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@NewtoK9,
I would rule out any kind of medical issues with your dog. You mentioned that he has been a beast to train, but has become "compliant" in the past few weeks. What do you think caused this change? Just curious, is your dog neutered or intact?

Here is what I would do if he were my dog. I would keep working on the obedience, I would work him with the ball or a kong on a rope as a reward. You mentioned that he has high ball drive, I would use that to your advantage. I would be very consistent with him, praising lavishly when he is correct. For behaviors that he understands and knows, he gets told once or given a command one time. He has two seconds to respond and when he does he is rewarded. If he is not doing a trained command, like sit for example with in two seconds, you make him do it. Do not repeat commands and correct for disobedience. Then praise at a higher level then the correction once the dog is correct. 

I might consider doing agility with this dog. Agility will be a great way to build confidence and bond with your dog. Agility folks are experts at praising and motivating their dogs. 

I would take this dog everywhere, outside of train stations and stand on the platform at rush hour. Every time he is neutral to people passing by he gets a treat. Anytime he shows any inappropriate aggression he gets corrected sternly. Probably, 3 or 4 times harder than you think he needs. 

Before you start correcting him harshly, has he ever shown any handler aggression after a correction? How does he respond to corrections. 

How old is he currently? 

Male dogs, especially working line dogs start to change at about a year or so. What was previously a friendly fun loving pup, now starts to become a more serious dog. They may not tolerate strangers and may start to show aggression as your is. My dog Boomer, did this at a year old. Strangers could no longer pet him and he was a beast at the vet. But, he had strong nerves and a solid temperament that could handle his drives and his aggression. 

I would crate this dog at night as suggested. I probably at this point would not make a big deal of the barking at you when you come in the garage. I'd say his name, tell him firmly to "knock it off" and give him something to do, like sit or down. Praise for the correct behavior. 

Dogs like this need a strong leader and prefer when people take charge. Upping his obedience will help and really taking charge will go a long way. Dogs with this type of temperament can not make decisions on their own. He needs to know you are in charge and he has to respect you and the rest of your family. When he knows you are in charge and how he has to act, he will relax. Having a strong leader will ease his mind.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

We are at the 1 year old mark now; and the changes the OP described are what you are now describing Slamdunc (along with some additional antics, yes).

So, what comes next during year 2? My male is not exhibiting the above, but he is maybe a later(r) bloomer. (Or pulled different genes, or nature vs. nurture arguments, or... ). I get that its all generalizations but its nice to know what CAN be going on and what to look for.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hellish said:


> We are at the 1 year old mark now; and the changes the OP described are what you are now describing Slamdunc (along with some additional antics, yes).
> 
> So, what comes next during year 2? My male is not exhibiting the above, but he is maybe a later(r) bloomer. (Or pulled different genes, or nature vs. nurture arguments, or... ). I get that its all generalizations but its nice to know what CAN be going on and what to look for.


Steve Strom mentioned what will happen. Dogs with these drives and temperament only get stronger as they mature. Some dogs with low thresholds and higher drives need to be handled and managed. They need a strong owner and leader. Some dogs are not the dogs you bring to the family picnic. My two males are good examples of this. They are put outside or away when people visit. Boomer is good with kids, Boru is not. In the wrong household these dogs run roughshod over everyone. They become unruly, disobedient and aggressive. If you match a dog with more drive than nerves you will have a real issue and people will get bit. Boomer is the greatest dog I have ever owned and worked. He is a pleasure to handle and super easy for me. He would have been a nightmare in a household with a novice owner. You need to be prepared to handle these dogs appropriately and be hyper vigilant. With the right owners and management they can be excellent pets. In the wrong home they can be a real pain in the butt.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Steve Strom mentioned what will happen. Dogs with these drives and temperament only get stronger as they mature. Some dogs with low thresholds and higher drives need to be handled and managed. They need a strong owner and leader. Some dogs are not the dogs you bring to the family picnic. My two males are good examples of this. They are put outside or away when people visit. Boomer is good with kids, Boru is not. In the wrong household these dogs run roughshod over everyone. They become unruly, disobedient and aggressive. If you match a dog with more drive than nerves you will have a real issue and people will get bit. Boomer is the greatest dog I have ever owned and worked. He is a pleasure to handle and super easy for me. He would have been a nightmare in a household with a novice owner. You need to be prepared to handle these dogs appropriately and be hyper vigilant. With the right owners and management they can be excellent pets. In the wrong home they can be a real pain in the butt.


Do you allow Boru around immediate family?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cloudpump said:


> Do you allow Boru around immediate family?


No. Not with out me being there. My wife has played with him in the yard and let him out of his kennel. But, it's not worth taking any chances and there is no need for my wife to interact with him. He is a true working dog and needs to be handled that way. He spends lots of time with me and that is what he needs. He is not a pet and shouldn't be treated like one and I don't expect him to act like one.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> When I say Kennel dog, I'm talking about what Slam said. Management. That's not a dog I'd give a lot of free run too. At a year old, he KNOWs who you are. When they're clear headed,they know who's car pulls in the driveway. When you say "times" like that. I look at that as exactly what Jim pointed out. Nerves. As they mature, yeah, you're going to see the different pieces of their temperament kick in, the suspicion with different people. Territorial of their yard. But at a year old he's experienced all those situations with you enough that he shouldn't react like that. That's his nerves. At that moment he's not clear in the head.
> 
> The older he gets, the stronger the drives come up, maybe the nerves don't hold it together all the time. All I'm saying is you have to live with him, and I'd think in terms of management and limiting situations where he's going to "startle" or react aggressively first. I'd crate him at night too.





Slamdunc said:


> I have owned and raised a dog like this who turned out to be an exceptional dog. As a young dog, he definitely had an underlying insecurity which he took forward into a rage. The dog was people aggressive, handler aggressive and dog aggressive. I did a lot of work with the dog and HOT him to a SchH 3. The protection work helped him a lot as did all of our training and socialization. That dog would have been a nightmare in a family environment or a weak owner.
> 
> I do not want anyone to think that I am knocking the OP's dog. There is no perfect dog in this world. My point was that the OP needs to focus on temperament and not so much the lines. The dog is what the dog is. The OP is certainly working with the dog and doing a nice job. It's a bump in the road that the OP needs to work out and manage. A dog like this will make you a better owner and a better handler. Dog's like this can teach us a lot.


I have a similar dog, and a novice so perhaps my perspective will help.

What one could proudly say is "protection instincts starting early" is in fact, nerves. As I read and learn about this this is my takeaway/interpretation so far and please Steve or Jim correct me if I am wrong. Nerves doesn't always mean your dog is chicken or afraid of things, startles etc. It seems to me there are different varieties of nerves coming into play. 

Nerves *can* mean they react first and think later. Everything is bad and potentially a threat until the dog assesses otherwise. It's not coming from bravery or "protection instincts" A dog with steady nerves knows it is you coming into the bedroom long before you have touched the knob of the door. Clear headed means - Hears..smells...not familiar? Then only reacts if needed, if it is not you but a stranger. 

When I first had Valor he would rush and bark at anyone who walked around in the dark. I too thought it was that he didn't know who it was. The point is he didn't care who it was. He was triggered. He does not do that anymore at all, I jumped on it asap as soon as it was brought to light to me by a good trainer I have used in my area that "it is nerves". Working it has paid off greatly. I did not use my regular trainer (who gave me my first intro to the term nerves) mostly because another trainer that is directly familiar with his sire and such was made available to me. 

We have accomplished a lot. He will never be a dog that a stranger can come up, smush him and love him, but I am fine with that. I am however very vigilant when we are out and about. We established "focus when I ask for it", and that is a wise and safe practice to do with suspicious dogs. He is now aloof towards strangers, but accepts them. Good place to be. He never barks at people in the house walking around in the dark anymore. He only barks appropriately, when someone steps on the property (unless I am outside too). He sits at the door when someone arrives, and doesn't break it until I tell him he can. He briefly checks out who it is, politely, then goes about his business. He no longer death stares them. Once he knows someone as a friend, he is happy to see them. I had a guest over on the couch 2 weeks ago, a when he got up to use the bathroom Valor lifted his head, listened, and went back to sleep. He KNEW it was him. Old Valor would have charged first and asked later. So don't be too upset over the "it's nerves". No owner likes to hear that. But it IS nerves and it is only the end of the world if you don't learn how to bring your dog to his best potential. Get a trainer familiar with these types of GSDs, can't say it enough. We woud have never made this progress without it.

And it will be a lifetime of keeping it in Czech (hahaha couldnt help it). If you don't practice, if you don't stay in "trained" it will always have a chance of cropping up, because it is inherent. Which to me is no big deal, as I love working for it and so does the dog.

The BEST thing we have done (and I was reluctant at first) is IPO training. Through his growing confidence learning bite work (not defensive bite work- prey drive stimulating IPO type bitework) I see the confidence come up, with the confidence UP the suspicion goes down. Just because a dog is not suspicious does not mean he won't be protective if need be. Clear headed means no reason to act like a jerk until you have a reason to act like a jerk. 

I think a lot of new people like us don't fully understand terms like protectiveness, suspicion, nerves, drive. Until we research and learn that is.

I'm sorry if I missed it..but, do you have a trainer? Have you looked into a local IPO club?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Oh and my dog isn't even a year yet. I got him at 5 months old, I was his 3rd home, and I think due to some inherent nerves he was hyper defensive until he settled. Training has helped so much. The dog has tons of potential, and I bet yours does too. Dogs like these are either great! or a disaster, depending on how it is handled. All things I learned in training, all things I have learned at even the few short weeks at IPO clubs. 

I am also aware, as you should be too, that throughout the next 2 years of their lives there will be more change and more emergence of "what we really have here". I really feel that IPO is that puzzle piece that is going to make my dog sing. 

And do not make assumptions. My dog is great with my kids. He also likes when kids come over. He knows my kids friends. But he is only 10 months old and I always watch when they are interacting. I feel he will always love MY kids because they are a part of the household. I do not trust he will always love other kids he doesn't know, or "be fine with women' etc etc. Maybe when he is 3, and we have done tons of training, will I feel I have a well formed opinion of him and his tendencies. Of course I let them interact. Who doesn't want to see a GSD playing catch with a football with kids on the front yard? He is soft with kids. I still watch constantly though. When I can't be interacting as well with him, crate he goes. Sometimes my chores do not get done on the weekend so I can supervise. Priories, it is good for the dog and for the kids.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> No. Not with out me being there. My wife has played with him in the yard and let him out of his kennel. But, it's not worth taking any chances and there is no need for my wife to interact with him. He is a true working dog and needs to be handled that way. He spends lots of time with me and that is what he needs. He is not a pet and shouldn't be treated like one and I don't expect him to act like one.


Jim,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think people should realize there is a different mindset with some of the Dutch breeders compared to many GSD breeders. I think I remember you saying you don't know your dog's pedigree, but he appears to be brindle, so I assume he is at least partially an unregistered Dutch MalX. I think there has been some shift to the Dutch breeding a more social dog as long as the hunt and prey drives are extreme, with a high threshold for defense. But it is also my understanding that some of the older Dutch breeders prefer a dog that is very dominant and tends to get angry in a fight rather than defensive. They are bred strictly for police work and not pets. I know one breeder/importer of KNPV MalX's who shifted away from the older style dog I'm referring to because even experienced K-9 handlers kept returning the dogs because they could not manage them due to their extreme dominance and getting a new handler as an adult.There are some GSDs like that, but still not as intense, and the breed is generally not selected for the more extreme dominance and social aggression. Part of the reason, IMO, is that IPO is the sport of the GSD, and it is primarily an obedience sport in all three phases, and has become more about winning than selecting for specific working traits, such as what would be valuable in a police dog. It is hard to win big trials with an extreme, dominant dog. Plus, even with the working line GSDs, many end up being just pets.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

We were told that Bud was mostly DDR breeding, and had a horribly abusive first year under his belt as well.
He was always what I would term clear headed. If he bit you, it was because he wanted to. And he wasn't much for vocal displays of bravado. 
He was far removed from the GSD's I had seen growing up. His grandfather was the scariest dog I had ever seen, and Bud was the same.
At one year old he was still a bit goofy but ask him if he wanted to fight and he would comply with a grin. As he moved toward two I noticed that his circle got smaller. He was still a goofball with me but people previously enjoyed became tolerated, and some were excluded completely. He didn't fully mature I think until between 3-4, and by that time his circle included immediate family only and no one else. Handling needed to be spot on because he had no qualms about calling his handler out for hesitating or being unfair. The few times earlier in his second year that I went toe to toe with him, I was worried and had he known that I would have been toast. 
I lovingly referred to him as my 2x4 dog. As in beat it through his thick skull, figuratively of course. He became stubborn like a mule and he was doing nothing unless I could convince him he needed to.
Bud barked if strangers approached while he was locked up. Never, ever did he bark at myself, my husband or our son. If I had him in my room or if I was home alone he didn't bark at all. He waited and watched.

I'm trying to think of what he was like at 1-2. It was 15 years ago, and I'm old. Lol. I just thought an uneducated observation might help.

Keep the obedience at the forefront. I can tell you that Bud could track ice cubes on a glacier and his obedience was stellar but he was not used for protection. He seemed to be of the mindset that if he needed to protect me there was no need to out. I tried clicker training and very nearly got bit. He was a dog who thrived on clear leadership, defined commands and structure.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jim,
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think people should realize there is a different mindset with some of the Dutch breeders compared to many GSD breeders. I think I remember you saying you don't know your dog's pedigree, but he appears to be brindle, so I assume he is at least partially an unregistered Dutch MalX. I think there has been some shift to the Dutch breeding a more social dog as long as the hunt and prey drives are extreme, with a high threshold for defense. But it is also my understanding that some of the older Dutch breeders prefer a dog that is very dominant and tends to get angry in a fight rather than defensive. They are bred strictly for police work and not pets. I know one breeder/importer of KNPV MalX's who shifted away from the older style dog I'm referring to because even experienced K-9 handlers kept returning the dogs because they could not manage them due to their extreme dominance and getting a new handler as an adult.There are some GSDs like that, but still not as intense, and the breed is generally not selected for the more extreme dominance and social aggression. Part of the reason, IMO, is that IPO is the sport of the GSD, and it is primarily an obedience sport in all three phases, and has become more about winning than selecting for specific working traits, such as what would be valuable in a police dog. It is hard to win big trials with an extreme, dominant dog. Plus, even with the working line GSDs, many end up being just pets.


Very good post, Chip! Why do many sport people get upset at the explanation you have just given....doesn’t mean either dog is better than other, but as you succinctly describe, their are different focuses in some aspects that after a prolonged period will result in distinctions that are predictable and observable.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jim,
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think people should realize there is a different mindset with some of the Dutch breeders compared to many GSD breeders. I think I remember you saying you don't know your dog's pedigree, but he appears to be brindle, so I assume he is at least partially an unregistered Dutch MalX. I think there has been some shift to the Dutch breeding a more social dog as long as the hunt and prey drives are extreme, with a high threshold for defense. But it is also my understanding that some of the older Dutch breeders prefer a dog that is very dominant and tends to get angry in a fight rather than defensive. They are bred strictly for police work and not pets. I know one breeder/importer of KNPV MalX's who shifted away from the older style dog I'm referring to because even experienced K-9 handlers kept returning the dogs because they could not manage them due to their extreme dominance and getting a new handler as an adult.There are some GSDs like that, but still not as intense, and the breed is generally not selected for the more extreme dominance and social aggression. Part of the reason, IMO, is that IPO is the sport of the GSD, and it is primarily an obedience sport in all three phases, and has become more about winning than selecting for specific working traits, such as what would be valuable in a police dog. It is hard to win big trials with an extreme, dominant dog. Plus, even with the working line GSDs, many end up being just pets.


Yes, Chip you are correct. The Dutch K9 guys that I now and I have two coming to visit and train with us in September are 30+ year K9 guys. They are also KNPV judges and National level competitors and decoys. The dogs I see coming from Holland for our Tier 1 Military guys are more social, high prey, high hunt and low defense. Or an extremely high threshold for defense. I spoke to some trainers that visit Holland several times a year to hand select dogs. They are spending about 13K on dogs in Holland and have a nice selection to choose from. They have said that the high defense dogs are not seen as much anymore. This mirrors my experience with the dogs I am seeing lately as well. Now, these dogs have extremely high fight drive, they are hard to unnerve and hard to rattle. Defense is not needed when you have this much prey, hunt and fight. If you dog bring out the defense you run the risk of losing the clear headedness of these dogs. 

The Dutch K9 guys do not like handler aggressive dogs, just as I do not like HA dogs. If I see it in testing I will pass on that dog. Handler aggressive dogs do not bite harder, run faster or track better than non handler aggressive dogs. They sell the Handler aggressive dogs to us.  

I have gotten a pedigree on my dog, and he is a Mali X DS mix. The KNPV line dogs are much different than WL GSD's no doubt. Dutch Shepherds are different than GSD's as well. The only comparison I was making is the management of reactive and potentially aggressive dogs. That is the same.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CometDog said:


> I have a similar dog, and a novice so perhaps my perspective will help.
> 
> What one could proudly say is "protection instincts starting early" is in fact, nerves. As I read and learn about this this is my takeaway/interpretation so far and please Steve or Jim correct me if I am wrong. Nerves doesn't always mean your dog is chicken or afraid of things, startles etc. It seems to me there are different varieties of nerves coming into play.


I think this sums it up really well. To me this means even more when it comes to living with these dogs then it does in relation to sport, where a little nervy edge doesn't have to be a bad thing.



> WHAT IS ‘NERVE’? One of the most important genetic traits tested in IPO is the dog’s nerves. Anyone who has ever struggled to remain calm and think clearly while experiencing a high level of stress might appreciate what strength of nerve means for the behavior of a dog. The nervous system, or “nerves”, controls the level of excitement, stress, aggression, fearfulness, and nervousness the dog feels, and determines what behaviors the dog will display as a result. It is a key component of the dog’s genetic temperament. Strong nerves allow the dog to react appropriately to his environment, and allow him to remain composed while under pressure or threat. Dogs with strong nerves will have a greater ability to “think” and make proper judgments. All of these are characteristics desirable not only in working dogs, but in companion dogs as well


In this thread, my point is to live with a dog like this a little differently to create a little more predictable and consistent routine. Not so much free run for him to be in a position to act out on every little thing that bothers him. That paragraph is from this article:

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I see you got your quote on "What is nerve?" from USCA. I have to disagree with their view that IPO is a valid test of a dog's nerves. It weeds out the weakest dogs, but that is about it. Pretty much the same for all the protection sports. IMO, a dog needs to be pushed into situations far beyond what various protection sports offer to test nerve. One could even argue that some IPO dogs are so high in prey the nerve issues are masked. Remember, all the show line German GSDs from show lines have to have an IPO or herding title and they are not know for strong nerves. I am not knocking IPO or other protection sports and am all for them, but I think the quote you selected is more propaganda than truth.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think one _*could*_ probably argue almost anything. I'll side with Anne's description of how nerves fit into a dogs temperament as not only accurate, but very relevant to what a lot of people see away from those awesome back lot tests of real dogs.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Does she say something to the dog from down the dark hall or the other side of the door so he knows its you?


Yes - if I announce myself there is no barking. I did employe this tactic and it worked like a charm. Right now his crate is in the living room and he seems a bit happier sleeping there. He has full view to all entrances in the house there. If I come out of the bedroom in the ⁯middle of the night, he shows no aggression. Sometimes he doesn't even raise his head.



Slamdunc said:


> @NewtoK9,
> I would rule out any kind of medical issues with your dog. You mentioned that he has been a beast to train, but has become "compliant" in the past few weeks. What do you think caused this change? Just curious, is your dog neutered or intact?


We're seeing the vet next week to look at health.

The only thing I can think of to cause the mellowing is that we increased his exercise. He was getting a couple miles of walking 3 times or so a week, interspersed with play sessions and training. Managing his energy has been a bit of a balancing act for us because we've never had this much dog before,so figuring out where the set point was on his energy level has taken some trial and error. If we weren't giving him enough exercise he was just a beast, period. Hard to have around in the house and hard to have outside the house. I know this is working dog 101 but we're a family of computer geeks, not athletes. General dog advice doesn't really prepare you for an active dog's exercise needs. The trainer (who incidentally breeds GSDs) thought 30 min a day would work. I'm not knocking her in any way because she gave me a lot of great advice, but um, for this dog, not a chance. This dog needs more like 4 (or more) hours of active work - exercise and mental work - a day. At least. 

So we reorganized our priorities as a family and now he is getting around 3 miles a day 7 days a week, with a mix of walking, running and as of this week, trail hikes. We are using structured walks and doing training of some sort while out. It's not just a pleasant stroll around the lake, it's work for both of us. If he's done a good job I'll let him have some unstructured time just sniffing and exploring towards the end to give him a little time to relax. The minute he shows a negative behavior - such as pulling, focusing on another dog, etc, it's back on the short leash and working. All that's made a big difference in his energy level. When we get home we do ball, training and/or tug. Finally, he has to get his meals out of kongs or tug-a-jug type things. We rotate through about 6 different types to keep him from getting bored. We adopted the mentality that nothing is free.

Now to some extent we've been doing most of this off and on over the last year but in the last couple of months we really started to focus on bringing it all together. When we're on it he does really well and we like our dog. When we're not on it, it's like living with a tasmanian devil who destroys everything in its path. It became apparent that the dog needed us to kick things up a notch despite our busy lives and the ROI is that we get to live more peacefully within our family. So we've been trying to do that and be consistent at it, and the response he's shown has been really amazing.




Slamdunc said:


> Before you start correcting him harshly, has he ever shown any handler aggression after a correction? How does he respond to corrections.


There has never been any handler aggression. Multiple people have trained and corrected him in different ways and he has always responded well. He responds best to positive reinforcement using praise and food reward and rock solid consistency. But you have to have clear boundaries on your terms of what you want him to do or else he ends up "training you" just to give him treats. He has to have a clear understanding of the goal and the consequences and will take any inch of leeway you give up. Sabis' mom describes him perfectly:



Sabis mom said:


> I lovingly referred to him as my 2x4 dog. As in beat it through his thick skull, figuratively of course. He became stubborn like a mule and he was doing nothing unless I could convince him he needed to.


He is stubborn as a mule. Block-headed. Beastly. You could try beating him with a 2x4 but I am almost certain he would take it from you and beat you back. This dog works beautifully for strong leadership but will walk all over you and then laugh if you bring a weak game. I sometimes think he has a mischievous streak and tests me randomly just to see if I'm paying attention. The old me had a lot to learn here and there's probably a lot still to go. 



Slamdunc said:


> There is no perfect dog in this world. My point was that the OP needs to focus on temperament and not so much the lines. The dog is what the dog is. The OP is certainly working with the dog and doing a nice job. It's a bump in the road that the OP needs to work out and manage. A dog like this will make you a better owner and a better handler. Dog's like this can teach us a lot.


This. This right here is the heart of it. My boy has his sweet, loving moments to be sure. He is actually pretty sweet most of the time. Wouldn't trade that for all the world. But it is the need to meet the challenges we face and mature into a team that really gets me interested in this dog. I can see inklings of it sometimes. Yesterday on a trail hike he figured out that if he kept me on the easy paths it was less effort for us both. When it was less effort, he got to enjoy more of the experience. And so did I. There was this unspoken bond of teamwork to get up the trail together. To _depend_ on one another. It was really a fantastic experience. Now ideally I want to be able to translate that bond, that teamwork, to someone breaking into my home and how we both react. I don't think you're going to see that in any dog at a year old. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you can read a dog's temperament at a year and know they'll later be good for that. I can't predict what my dog will be like at 3 because I simply don't have the experience, but on the trail, he was at his best. When he is certain about his job he is amazing to behold. When he is uncertain, that's when we struggle. 



CometDog said:


> I think a lot of new people like us don't fully understand terms like protectiveness, suspicion, nerves, drive. Until we research and learn that is.
> 
> I'm sorry if I missed it..but, do you have a trainer? Have you looked into a local IPO club?


Definitely agree with not understanding all the terms. That's been a little tough to figure out, and I think some folks use them differently, and some people have their own thresholds for what falls in the realm of acceptable behavior. Some people spend their lives chasing "the perfect dog." And all that's fine. Same thing happens with humans too. I'm far from perfect, I wear my emotions on my sleeve, and I've only learned to tamper down my rawr, rawr, rawr reactivity with age. LOL. I think as Slamdunc suggested, it's about learning the strengths and weaknesses of dog and owner and working to make us both the best we can be.

I live in a rural area and the closest IPO club (really, any club) is about 45 min away, unfortunately. IPO sounds interesting, but I just don't have the time to put toward it right now. I didn't originally get this dog to do sports - I wanted a protector for our family and I still feel like that's our goal. Although I think he would enjoy Agility so I have been trying to make some time to build a couple of props to start working on that. I also wouldn't mind trying tracking, but haven't gotten enough time (between school, dog, work and family time) to invest in researching and figuring out how to start on that yet. 

_____

I GREATLY appreciate all the advice offered here, both new and experienced. I knew to expect that after about 12 months there would be some maturation changes and some suspicion coming in, and I guess I wondered if this was related to what I was now seeing. From what I understand, old DDR types can have a higher defense which makes them more suspicious/reactive. In the eyes of folks who are looking for a more balanced or lower defense drive dog for IPO or police work, that may be less desirable. And it seems like higher defense in an immature dog could definitely result in less clear-headedness, kind of like what happens when a teenage boy comes into his hormones. I agree, if the handler doesn't anticipate or prepare for that it could definitely turn a "bratty" dog into a dangerous dog later. 

Some of the reactive stuff has come and gone - like the night barking, the coming into the house barking. At least in some situations, he appears to be learning through experience. Once he gets the concept, he's good. I'm not correcting him harshly in these scenarios but rather, reminding him who his leader is and what his job is. This behavior seems like a maturity thing to me but maybe he will always have some suspicion. I think it's wise to keep this in mind and actively work on it as we go forward. Knowing that he may react first gives me a better understanding of what to focus on with him. I can work on desensitizing him to situations or people, socialization, and reinforcement of acceptable behavior. I can learn how to give him better leadership and signals. Obviously, we have a lot of work ahead of us.

I feel like you all have given a lot of advice to think about and work into our program. I DO very much agree that he will continue to require strong leadership and training. I never thought this would be a dog I could just train and then we'd be good. Training is or should be, in my opinion, a lifelong endeavor. I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do together.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey Newtok9s, I’d work with the agility folks before you start work on your own. Jumping young dogs can potentially cause injury (sometimes life long) if done incorrectly.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I think one _*could*_ probably argue almost anything. I'll side with Anne's description of how nerves fit into a dogs temperament as not only accurate, but very relevant to what a lot of people see away from those awesome back lot tests of real dogs.


I detect some sarcasm. If you think of IPO as a sport competition that is judged on a performance with specific expectations, you realize it is largely about the training and the skill of the handler and how good his helpers are. If you look at evaluating a dog for real work, like a PSD/LE dog, you will see few to none of the exercises of IPO used to evaluate a dog's nerves. An IPO dog is rarely subjected to pain or extreme environmental challenges, which I assume you are referring to as "awesome back lot tests." Trials are done on nice, flat grassy fields and the dog knows exactly what to expect every single time. On top of that, in the BH they really prefer a dog with no social aggression.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just a tad. Even in a sport competition you can see the dog and get an idea what potential he may or may not have. The problem with social aggression is the way people will use it as cover for inappropriate, nerve bag stupid. A dog can pass a BH with social aggression, he just has to be able to behave. Shouldn't be that difficult in something as phoney as IPO, you would think?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Besides, the topic is the behavior of the op's dog, and I think a good, general description of nerves is helpful. I don't like IPO because they don't have slick floors doesn't have any relevance here.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

OP- just food for thought. I had dismissed IPO because I thought I didn't have the time to "commit". Work full time, 3 kids under 12, 2 have disabilities that are significant. Turns out I do have time to learn how to get to BH and IPOs. I don't have the time to "compete" but I do have the time to accomplish it. It is not nearly as involved as I pictured (I could make it that way, but I don't have to make it that way)

I go 2 Saturdays a month, it is a one hour ride and a really nice afternoon with laid back cool people who are genuinely into it for the dogs. I practice what I have learned on my 2 Saturdays during the weeks in between. There is no rush to get to BH. When I do trial it will be in front of friends facing the same judge.

I have literally done 4 Saturdays over 2 months, only that, and I still see lots of confidence in my young dog that was not there before. Winning against a helper, their victory parade and return to their den with their opponent's former possession (the sleeve)...the first time you see a young dog's face that just did that..you KNOW it is good stuff for them. 

I won't beat a dead horse, just wanted to point out it doesn't have to be a way of life. Even a little exposure and use of the club's knowledge and tools (A helper's skill is very important I am told)..will be beneficial.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I think one _*could*_ probably argue almost anything. I'll side with Anne's description of how nerves fit into a dogs temperament as not only accurate, but very relevant to what a lot of people see away from those awesome back lot tests of real dogs.





Steve Strom said:


> Just a tad. Even in a sport competition you can see the dog and get an idea what potential he may or may not have. The problem with social aggression is the way people will use it as cover for inappropriate, nerve bag stupid. A dog can pass a BH with social aggression, he just has to be able to behave. Shouldn't be that difficult in something as phoney as IPO, you would think?


This type of circular argument exists in people defensive sports/hobbies too. All sports are a test for bigger things. That is how sports came to be. Play is not just for fun, play is for learning, testing, and staying ready for something much bigger. Whether you are a human, dog, lion.

And you won't know until you know and there is no real pleasant way to find out. 

I do a lot of firearms competing and tactical training. As a result I have a few LE friends I have made over the years. We were treated to simulations that civilians do not often get to do. Pain penalty bullets, clearing buildings. Rounds that break skin even though you are wearing under armour, a t shirt and sweatshirt.

What do you learn? You learn you haven't really trained until you have trained scared. And here is where you take all of the trophy winning sports people, all the people who took tons of "tactical" classes and you see who gets left on the cutting room floor. You see who seems to always be busy when the training is offered again. So there are those that will go to the next teir, and those that will stay in their comfort zone.

I see dog sports in the same light. It's a proving ground to be sure. When you look at the dogs training, who is a bag of nerves screaming on the sleeve and snapping. Who is having fun. Who wishes they could bite some more. But, you just won't know until you know, and dogs not being as complex (we think) as people can be broken if it gets for real and they get runned off. So why would anyone take them to that level of a proving ground? To see if they can really work, that's is it. In my opinion you only need to do that for a dog if he is going to be military, LE, or a PPD.

I can see an analogy for nerves with dogs/people too. And it is relevant to OPs questions. When people think it is protectiveness and not "nerves"....the person who HAS to make sure everyone knows they are a black belt, law enforcement, in the mafia, whatever...they want to back you down before yo even THINK of challenging them. It's a posturing (hair standing up, charges and barking in your face), not because they are brave and "can get sued for using their hands since they are so trained"..(cue the seismic eye roll) it is because they are AFRAID they may not truly be able to throw down.

People who are trained and confident that they can DO, just go about life in a calm state, rarely mention their credentials unless asked, and only react if they need to. Just like clear headed dogs.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

And I would like to add..as a comfort to those dealing with the dreaded nerves- Does it mean if a person who postures and bluffs CAN'T deliver the goods? Who knows, he sure doesn't. He will probably try quicker than a confident person, out of fear. Deescalation skills take a vacay when you are in high fight or flight (in drive)

Maybe he will surprise himself and therefore gain confidence, or maybe he already knows he can't and is just hiding it. It's why I feel, even as a novice, building confidence is the way out of the bag of nerves, maybe, even if it improves it. Hence why a good handler can bring a nervy dog to a good place, whereas it becomes a disaster with a novice if nobody recognizes it and seeks help from the experienced making it the best it can be.


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