# should i return my rescue?



## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

hi i need some advice last november i adopted a black female gsd i had some issues with her .http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...al/370594-adopting-black-female-shepherd.html

i found out why they were fighting it was because she had something in her mouth and my male got too close. anyways fast forward a few months they gotten along fine . but a few weeks ago i had them both out on the least coming back from the garage i had a bag of dog food in my hand i got up to the door and was opening it when two little girls were walking home(other side of the street) from being dropped off the school bus. one little girl made a loud noise and my female heard it and lunged toward them . so i put down the dog food to get a stronger hold of the leash she lunged again the leashed sliped from my hand and off she went running across the street and jumped up and bit the girl on the hand. 

so i got a hold of the dog and took her back in my house and went over to the girls house to explain what happened. the mother and grandmother just asked if she was current on their shots i told her yes and i have the paperwork if they wanted to see it. they said no and they believed me and that they were not going to do anything about it since i had her leashed. i was very very lucky. but now im thinking of returning her to the rescue but i feel that i cant because i feel like im abandoning her like her original owners did,i talked to a couple of behaviorist one said she was probably protecting me or her territory with the girl . but she said it is a fixable issue. i dont know what to do.:help:


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

If you truly feel that this dog is not right for you, then you should take her back. 
Though, personally, I think you should keep her and get some professional help. 
Of course this is completely your decision, but what if you take her back and she ends up in the wrong hands? Someone who ignores her issues. 
Either way, I wish the best for you both.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

That should never never have happened! I would dump the behaviourist they are making excuse for the dog! 

You need to get a trainer! The dog should not have gone beyond the yard! The dog should have stayed if you told it to and the dog should have come back when you called it!

Now the dog has a bite history not good and you did that!. Now you "know" this dog cannot be trusted around children! 

A GSD is not a joke dog! I got my clock cleaned by mine! And I was an experienced dog owner that did real dogs! Even still I had to step up my game and turn his "issues" around. The only one that ever got bit was me (and my other Dominant Male dog) but my GSD issues did not involve outsiders! 

I stepped up my game and today my guy is safe in public and I am very very proud of him. 

So.."you" need to decide are you gonna "Run with the big Dawgs or Stay on the porch?"


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

One thing is, if you return her with a bite history, the rescue may be forced to put her down. Liability insurances it seems won't cover dogs with a bite history, which is why most rescues won't take a dog that has a bite history. The other problem is, you know the dog and have a bond with her and don't want her. It is highly unlikely that a stranger is going to want a dog with a bite history. It is always better to return a dog before a bite happens - if there are problems.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Did the bite break the skin?


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your imput im kinda upset about it because the rescue put in her description that she is good with kids thats why i got her because theres alot of kids that run around here in the summer and i have niece and nephews thats really young too.the other trainer i talked to said that she probably bit someone before he asked me if she drew blood i told him i not really sure but the mother has said so and he said if a dog bit someone the first time it wouldnt puncture the skin (but im not sure if thats true or not)


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Ask the mother how bad the bite was and to describe it. More information is always good so you know what you are working with.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the leerberg site has a bite-chart that suggests whether or not a dog that has bitten and to what extent that the dog can be worked with. 

From what you posted, I think your dog is a good candidate to be worked with. It is awful that this happened. I don't know that it is the end of the world. But you have to be a LOT more careful with her, now that you know what she is capable of.

This was a fraidy dog when you got her. Has this been the case all along. Is it loud noises that make her afraid? What all makes her fearful. 

A single bite on a hand, when you have a fearful dog -- I am guessing a fear-biter now. But, the thing is, she got loose from you, and fearful dogs, when they have the opportunity, generally run, when they are connected, flight is taken away, so they must fight. I don't know why the dog when it realized it was not connected, chose to confront and bite the child.

I don't like what your trainer said about it being protective. I don't think so. I do think this is fixable. Too much aggression is automatically attributed to fear, or protective/guarding, or dominance. It is extremely important that your dog is diagnosed properly so you can choose the best approach.

In the mean-time, don't carry a load of groceries and two dogs' leashes into your house. Leave the dog in the car, and take the groceries in, and then come back for the dog or vice-versa. Too many people try to do too many things at once. If I see someone with a couple of dogs and a passel of children, no way am I going to stop and try to pet the dogs, or talk to the person. No way. The person is over-loaded and doesn't know it. If one of those dogs chose to do its own thing, what would she do? 

This is something about the management that you now have to consider. Your dog, whether this was a response due to something it was afraid of, or because it wanted to stop the noise, or chase away the people that don't belong, doesn't matter, it will bite. And therefore, you don't have the luxury of dropping the lead or being in a situation where you have too much in your hands. 

You've had this dog for several months. I think she is your problem now. I think that the rescue probably wouldn't work with her and find her a new home, because she bit a child, and there are so many dogs out there that need homes, that haven't. It is a liability issue for them. 

I think you are probably going to need to work with a behaviorist/trainer to give your girl a chance. A 3 year old dog ought to be able to pick up basic obedience really fast. Doing that with her on her own, and then together with your other dog, will help build her confidence and trust in you.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

It could have been a prey driven moment for the dog. I agree with everything Selzer has written.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't understand how the leash sipped from the hand. Personally I would not take the dog back for my failings. Maybe it's not the best time to have two dogs out on a leash when the school bus is dropping kids off. The leash slipping I honestly don't get. Once the first lunge happens I'm going to know a second lunge will take place unless I had the dog under complete control. I would have been ready for the second lunge. 

Carrying a bag of dog food in while having two dogs on a leash....why? Unless it's a 5 pound bag the dogs will not be under complete control. I would keep the dog, but ensure I have complete control of the dog at all times.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Pretty simple. Do you have two crates when your preoccupied doing something else that prevents 100% control. ???


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have to ask this based on the other thread with a dog that bit a kid. Why can this dog be worked with but the other one can't? This dog went out of its way to attack a child and the other dog was in its home with circumstances we don't know completely. I do think that with the right trainer this can be avoided in the future, but I'm not understanding some of the logic behind some of the responses in both threads. This dog is not a ticking time bomb bug the other one is? I just don't understand


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I have to ask this based on the other thread with a dog that bit a kid. Why can this dog be worked with but the other one can't? This dog went out of its way to attack a child and the other dog was in its home with circumstances we don't know completely. I do think that with the right trainer this can be avoided in the future, but I'm not understanding some of the logic behind some of the responses in both threads. This dog is not a ticking time bomb bug the other one is? I just don't understand


One bite in the hand and stopping, is a LOT different than bites in the leg, arm and torso (back), and not stopping until the guy came in and pulled the dog off. 

Also a child playing with the grandchildren is a lot different than a dog hearing a large noise and running up to a stranger and giving a single bite. The second situation is not good. But that child walked away, possibly with minimal damage. The first child had bites with all four canines engaged, and not just to extremities. 

These are two different situations totally. 

Furthermore. The first people had the dog for two years, and the dog has a history of trouble with them, and trouble before it came to them. 

The second dog has been in the home for a few months. It should be settled by now, but it seems like a large noise unsettled it. The dog may not have been expected to have the same amount of confidence in its owner, and still responded better in this situation than the first dog. 

It was bad, but there are different levels of bad. Kids allowed into your home, attacked by a dog is really bad. 

It is comparing apples to oranges really.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Selzer, many if not all of your comments are so spot on the money, explained well and appreciated ... Thanks for taking the time ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> Pretty simple. Do you have two crates when your preoccupied doing something else that prevents 100% control. ???


Crates wouldn't have made a difference here. Training would have. None of this had to happen, the leashes were dropped. So what tell the dog to Stay!

Hands are full so what! Open the car door, dog doesn't step out of the car until you release them, training Dog should have been trained to Stay On The Lawn! And not to mention no recall???

So what was t!he dog doing for months?? Obviously "not" being trained?? The OP took the dog out of a situation where it could have found a responsible owner, that would have trained the dog. It had no "know" bite history at the time now it does. 

GSD's get another ding and a kid gets traumatized by big dogs! This dog is "owed' a fair shot at a good life!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Now the owner knows. It's been an awful winter here, and I haven't trained much since November. Now it is time to get out there and work with this dog. 

I drop leashes. I have a problem (medical) where I drop stuff. I training, you can teach your dog a DROP command, kind of Drop or Die. It is an Emergency Down. We train it like a game and get really, really good at it. The dog gets lots of treats, and then intermittent treats, and then that dog goes down every single time, and quick when it hears the word DROP! At that point, you can step on the leash or grab the collar, whichever makes more sense. 

I am really sorry this happened. But I think you can work with this critter.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> Now the owner knows. It's been an awful winter here, and I haven't trained much since November. Now it is time to get out there and work with this dog.
> 
> I drop leashes. I have a problem (medical) where I drop stuff. I training, you can teach your dog a DROP command, kind of Drop or Die. It is an Emergency Down. We train it like a game and get really, really good at it. The dog gets lots of treats, and then intermittent treats, and then that dog goes down every single time, and quick when it hears the word DROP! At that point, you can step on the leash or grab the collar, whichever makes more sense.
> 
> I am really sorry this happened. But I think you can work with this critter.


Would love to hear more about this game. Do you have any video?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Would love to hear more about this game. Do you have any video?


Sorry, no video, it is just the Emergency down. or STOP and DOWN in Rally Obedience. You train it on leash, and you just immediately turn into your dog with a treat as you are walking along, and take the treat to the ground and say DROP! and when the dog is totally down, he gets the treat. At first he is treated every time. 

But then you treat every other, or every third time, using just hand signals and the drop. And giving the treat only for the quickest down. You work on it, but you should be able to say DROP or DOWN, whichever your word is in any situation, leash or no leash after some training. 

People have saved their dogs using this. One of the guys that train dogs where I do, had the dogs in the van, and something happened where the door opened, and the dogs came out, and the owner was across the parking lot, and just yelled, DROP! and both dogs did. He was able to get them back in the van without any problems. Scary in a busy parking lot.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

I use to have a Jack Russell with an absolute death wish. The command you described was the first thing the trainer wanted rock solid because she was so flighty and impulsive. It worked , and it was a Godsend. We used the word " freeze" since it did not sound like any other command out there. 

That 15 pounds of dog took years off my life I am sure lol


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Oisin's Aoire said:


> I use to have a Jack Russell with an absolute death wish. The command you described was the first thing the trainer wanted rock solid because she was so flighty and impulsive. It worked , and it was a Godsend. We used the word " freeze" since it did not sound like any other command out there.
> 
> That 15 pounds of dog took years off my life I am sure lol


My Jack Russell terrier has a girlfriend named's Smore's and if I took Nelson to the dragstrip and Smore's was at the quarter-mile and I let him off the leash I am absolutely certain he would be in the 15 to the 16 second bracket he is fast.

He sits at every corner on command very quickly but he is never off lead .

He absolutely loves children, wags his tail and gives kisses .


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

None of my dogs are particularly fond of children. One has patience for ages and will go wide around them. One is curious and uncertain since he's an idiot puppy. The other tends to be okay with them if they are being quiet and still, but if they are flailing or making sounds, she tends to sound off. I know this dog has lived in homes with children and been fine. However, I have a feeling she never truly enjoyed having to deal with the children, and as a result I am very careful with her interactions with them. Her recall is the best out of all of my dogs. Not only will she come when I call, but when someone else calls her or calls their dog to them. 

I agree with others that this could be worked with, and could potentially be turned about with training and careful planning/supervision. Even with a dog who is extremely trustworthy around people, kids, other animals, the potential of something happening is always there. Just because they are okay with your children or family they recognize does not mean it translates to everyone. Especially since kids can be a touch annoying at times to dogs when they're out in backyards (hence a reason the aussie with us cannot be trusted around kids at all - they used to torture him from the other side of the fence daily) and often make strange sounds and movements. 

However, you have to ask yourself if you want to put in the time or if you feel that this incident will forever change your perception of the dog. It is not a good thing for an antagonistic relationship being between you and your dog. Even if you do care about them and want to do right by them, it is not always the right way by keeping them with you. 

We have a foster currently who nipped a child on the rear when it was running around. She had been with her breeder up until 5 or so months (kept in a pen with her mother) so she was not really socialized with people that much. The people who we got her from were in a touch over their heads. They had two labs, a rescued boxer thing and her littermate when they got her (I believe the original female they had died in some manner, and they received this girl). They simply don't have the time to work with all their dogs and she had bonded with her brother more than them. As of now, my roommate (who is the dog trainer) is the one who she adores. She doesn't have much trouble with me, however her insecurities about the world manifest as barking/charging scary things. She has done this toward me, but as soon as she hears my voice, she knows who I am and is fine. Today when out hiking with a group of people, even if she had seen them or been around them, she would pick some to bark and charge at, not necessarily nipping but that is the next progression. It will take time and training to help her work her way through it (as well as confidence building), but it is going to be a labor of time and love.

I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do. Given it is an isolated incident with a single bite, I would personally be more careful about how she is handled when outside and seek the guidance of a trainer who can truly evaluate her and help you. Without being there and seeing what actually happened, the motive/reason behind the bite is guess work. People often want to place the blame on anything but the dog, find some way to justify it, but truthfully it is only speculation and some days it is on the dog. -shrug- Important thing now is to be sure it does not happen again for the safety of all those around, including the dog.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't think it was protectiveness since the child was across the street. I think you will not have both dogs on leash at the same time anymore (and carry something!) I did that once and got drug down the driveway on my face when my two saw another dog!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, my 1st GSD would have done the same thing. He didn't like children, and he did like to air snap. The combination of his sharp teeth and a child's delicate skin would have eventually lead to this if he'd had the freedom to run around with kids. The question is: how often is this going to happen? If you can't manage the dog so that the answer is "never" then you should look at rehoming. It's not fair to the kids - and if the dog is going to do this once, then it's going to do it again. I had no problem at all with my GSD, since making the commitment to guarantee that no kids were ever near my dog was a simple fit for my lifestyle. Maybe you know someone who's living my kind of life and can do it? Or maybe you're already there, and just have to be more careful. Good luck, and I'm very glad that the girl is ok!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with you this sounds like a case that can be worked with.

But...what is a bit more of a warning flag is the fact the dog ran across the street to bite the child.

So that's not biting out of fear IMO, because the dog had the option of flight and didn't take it.

So I think it would be helpful to understand what would motivate the dog to advance on the child and bite...could be prey drive OR some form aggression?

Again agree this is a case where it's worthwhile to try and fix this but .... with a great deal of caution and an experienced GSD trainer. 





selzer said:


> One bite in the hand and stopping, is a LOT different than bites in the leg, arm and torso (back), and not stopping until the guy came in and pulled the dog off.
> 
> Also a child playing with the grandchildren is a lot different than a dog hearing a large noise and running up to a stranger and giving a single bite. The second situation is not good. But that child walked away, possibly with minimal damage. The first child had bites with all four canines engaged, and not just to extremities.
> 
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can't tell you what to do obviously

I will say, a dog that takes off across the street to nail a kid, is a dog that needs some serious management. 

I hope you can find a good trainer/behaviorist and be better prepared/vigilant in the future


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I will say, a dog that takes off across the street to nail a kid, is a dog that needs some serious management.


This! I don't think you can make a decision about this until you really, REALLLLY understand what that was all about. That behavior is deeply troubling.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> This! I don't think you can make a decision about this until you really, REALLLLY understand what that was all about. That behavior is deeply troubling.


No kidding. I hope they are able to figure it out. If unable to figure it out, then you have to assume it's a dog that just makes really bad decisions when they are over-aroused and keep the arousal level down, work on impulse control, have the right tools for physical control and management.

Since it has only been a few months, training could really help if OP is willing to put in the time and find good people to work with. I didn't understand the depth of my rescue's problems at two months, and the way I handled her back then I think is totally crazy now. I can see her getting worked up a mile away, but it took a long time to be able to read her. 

It might be helpful for OP to discuss the situation with the rescue even if returning is not an option. If they think everything is just hunky-dory, then they can't help. Also they will probably want to know that a dog they listed as good with kids just bit one. It might help them re-evaluate what they tell potential adopters about handling a new dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Kaimeju said:


> It might be helpful for OP to discuss the situation with the rescue even if returning is not an option. If they think everything is just hunky-dory, then they can't help. Also they will probably want to know that a dog they listed as good with kids just bit one. It might help them re-evaluate what they tell potential adopters about handling a new dog.


This is a great suggestion! This would go a long way in helping both the dogs and the new owners. It's not fair when someone adopts a dog and it turns out to be something beyond their scope of management. I know someone whose favorite breed is rottie, and she brought one home from the shelter under the belief that it was good with children - until it bit her child and she had to return him. Lose/lose for everyone, when you consider that now the dog is doomed, the child is hurt, and the person in the middle is still filled with guilt and anger over this easily preventable situation, years later.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I can't tell you what to do obviously
> 
> I will say, a dog that takes off across the street to nail a kid, is a dog that needs some serious management.
> 
> I hope you can find a good trainer/behaviorist and be better prepared/vigilant in the future


 I agree. The dog caught you by surprise this time, but now you know. So now you need to make sure you're prepared and in control in the future. 

Perhaps having the dog muzzled as an extra precaution when out of doors would be a good idea, until you figure out what happened and work your dog through it with a trainer. 

Good for you for being so upfront with the parent and making sure the child was ok. I'm glad they were reasonable about it, but you must make sure it never happens again.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> It might be helpful for OP to discuss the situation with the rescue even if returning is not an option. If they think everything is just hunky-dory, then they can't help. Also they will probably want to know that a dog they listed as good with kids just bit one. It might help them re-evaluate what they tell potential adopters about handling a new dog.


Excellent idea. Note too, as others have stated, this dog must be managed diligently & with the utmost caution. She's also at that age where the adult temperament & attitudes are really coming out. Train thoroughly & be very aware of all that she 'says' & does. You need to be certain that her 'bad' behavior isn't escalating. For you sake, for her sake & for everyone's sake, do not assume that she won't attack again. From what you described this was nothing like a simple defensive bite or fear reaction. Love her, love her deeply, but do so with both eyes open & all senses on full alert.


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