# Need help with GS randomly attacking my other dog they're normally best friends with



## Vee2003 (Sep 11, 2013)

I've just suffered a dog incident just now and am still somewhat shaken, so apologies if this post is all over the place.

I have two female dogs. Tika is an all black german shepherd and Abby is an australian kelpie/shepherd. My problem is that every once and a while, Tika will for no apparent reason go completely ballistic and absolutely -rip- into Abby. It's like something triggers her somehow and she completely forgets who Abby is, blocks out the presence of any of us around(she completely ignores being told/yelled at to stop or even grabbed and pried off during this), and just goes berserk on her. People who have seen it have said it's like she momentarily becomes a completely different dog, and having just gone through it again up close I feel that's pretty accurate.

The attacks are short. I don't think any of them have lasted longer than 15-30 seconds, if that. And Tika clearly understands she did something wrong, at least after the fact. The moment she snaps out of HulkRage mode she goes very submissive "I know I just did something really bad" mode, staying low to the ground, tail between her legs, trying to find a chair to hide under, etc. But Abby is a much smaller dog and takes real and serious damage from these things that requires things like vet visits and stitches and antibiotics. I love Tika dearly, but I love Abby too. Does anyone have any idea what is going on with this?

For an example, here is what happened just now- I sleep upstairs. Both dogs were sleeping in my room with me on the floor near each other, being fine. I got up to use the bathroom. Tika followed me, Abby stayed snoozing in the room. I then returned to my room, Tika returned with me, walked over to the snoozing Abby and for no reason I can discern suddenly growled, grabbed her by the neck and started biting/shaking. Abby started yelping like crazy, I yelled at Tika to stop but she ignored me and I had to pry her off. When I got her off Abby's neck she went for her leg, and I pried her off that too, at which point she seemed to snap out of it and went quiet and went and sat in the corner looking guilty while I tried to tend to Abby. I'll have to take her to the vet tomorrow. Tika for her part has been put in a kennel/cage out on the indoor porch for the night.

I just don't get what's causing this. They were raised together, and 99.9% of the time they get along great. They play around with each other, hang out, follow me or my mom or dad around. They sleep comfortably near each other. And they are both great, loving, and obedient dogs who just want to be around their people and each other. Abby is generally submissive to Tika, who is much bigger than her, but other than occasionally laying down and letting herself be sniffed for a moment or two there isn't generally any problem. Tika has had no problems with any other dogs or other people, and when Abby has been recovering from the attacks Tika will sometimes even guard her to make sure she's ok. 

So in summary... They're both sweet loveable dogs. I don't think they hate each other. I don't think anything was happening that should have triggered aggression. And Tika seems to very keenly know aggression is a bad thing and that she messed up when these things happen. Yet they keep happening? Thoughts?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, I really think a vet visit is in order with a full work up. That's just not normal and I hope it's a physical issue which can be diagnosed and treated.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Could be alot of things, guardy behavior of the space/your room? Jealousy, displaced aggression, or it could just be a "bitch" thing,,Bitches when they fight can be nasty nasty. 

I would never ever leave them ALONE together, you might come home to some serious damage one day 

You might have her thyroid checked/vet clearance, while it 'could' be medical, I kinda doubt it, but I'd rule that out.

While it may be hard, I think trying to figure out what, if anything sets Tika off, and work on stopping it before it happens, could help, BUT, if it's just out of 'nowhere' this could be nearly impossible.. Tika has her reasons for doing what she's doing, whether they are rational or not, it's 'her' reasoning.

She sounds like she means business, and with that I would never leave them alone unattended..crate one of them when no one is around. 

Sometimes dogs can just be bullies,,and sometimes females just don't like other females at points in their lives and are going to do something about it.

Sorry I don't really have any other suggestions on a 'cure'..


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Muzzle the aggressor. A fabric muzzle is something that lets the dog know it can't bite and it doesn't look too bad.

I feel there must a problem with the pack structure that you are not alluding to in your post or it may be a physical problem as has been suggested. Is there any other strange behavior that you think is relevant. 

I've seen females fight and they can just switch on and off really quickly. You screaming is not going to help. It will probably make it worse as does prying them apart as the biting dog bites harder when it is pulled from behind. Better to choke her to release or pull towards the other dog to trigger an opposition reflex away from the bite. 

How do you interact with the 2 dogs. How often do you walk them. Are there any games you play with them. Do they resource guard toys or food?


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## Vee2003 (Sep 11, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Muzzle the aggressor. A fabric muzzle is something that lets the dog know it can't bite and it doesn't look too bad.
> 
> I feel there must a problem with the pack structure that you are not alluding to in your post or it may be a physical problem as has been suggested. Is there any other strange behavior that you think is relevant.
> 
> ...


*thinks*

Unusual stuff... we recently moved, so tensions and stresses may be higher than normal. However, this problem started happening a long while ago before anything involving moving, so I don't know how to think about that, except maybe chalk up increased stress as a danger factor? 

Abby has been getting extra attention since the last attack injured one of her forward legs, so this is sorta a soon after the last event kinda thing, but before that there was a good long time without any problems enough that even I was starting to think maybe it'd been worked out/fixed. I don't know if the extra attention Abby has been getting as she healed contributed to this too? She was nearly recovered so that had also tapered off a bit and things were very nearly back to normal also.


For interactions- 

Abby generally gets most of her exercise through fetch/retrieval games. She gets very very into her retrieving and will run herself till she's good and tired chasing things and it's just what she likes to do, so we do that with her more. Tika can also do that sorta, but she has a habit of not wanting to let go of whatever you just threw. She'll go get it, bring it back to you, then not want to give it to you till her attention span runs out usually several seconds later when she'll finally drop it.

Tika gets more of the traditional walking, and we try to do that at least once a day or failing that every other day. There are also various dog toys around the house that she occasionally chews on, or we occasionally toss for her or Abby. 

Tika does tend to be interested in what Abby is doing, in that whatever Abby is doing she wants to do too. So Tika doesn't tend to "ask" for ball tossing, for example, but if she sees Abby get the ball tossed she will want to join in so we toss toys to her too in those cases.

She is the same way about the food in a sort of weird way. There are two dog dishes for food, and when the food gets put in them she waits to see which one Abby goes for and then wants to eat out of that one. Once she starts eating if Abby switches bowls she'll stick with the one she's currently eating out of, but till then there is that weirdness there. Also to clarify she's not aggressive or mean about it, she doesn't scare Abby off of whichever bowl of food, she just seems to want to share it.

Both dogs get regular attention and pets from me and my mom and my dad. Both dogs are also pretty much free to come hang out in my room when I'm up there, and are free to jump up on my bed and relax or whatever while they hang out. Sometimes one does, or sometimes they both jump up there, and there hasn't been any problems with that thus far apart from needing to clean the sheets more often. Abby was snoozing on the ground when things went bad this morning, so I don't know what was up with that. Both dogs have been in my room fairly often, both before we moved and since we got to the new place too.

They also generally like to sleep or nap near each other, or at least know where each other is. Tika will look around for Abby if she hasn't seen her in a few minutes and vice versa.

We have two kennels/crates/cages that they're comfortable enough with to sleep in, and will go into if we tell them to "kennel up" though they've been sleeping just around the house for the most part for the last several months. I guess that's a change, but again this problem pre-dates that change as well. They are still comfortable sleeping in there if need be, or if it becomes needed to have them in there because people are working around the house or one of them did something bad. Tika is out there now.

Other stuff.. *thinks* Tika is a very "Where her people are" kinda dog usually. If you get up to go to the next room, she'll get up and follow. If you sit down, she'll plop down somewhere. If you get up to back to the previous room she'll follow. She just wants to be where you are all the time. Abby is a little more laid back about that stuff. She's more ok hanging out if you leave the room or go upstairs or whatever, though she'll eventually come looking for you too after a bit, and both come running when called.

That's all I can think of at the moment, I may enlist the aid of the rest of the family here for further infos if needed. I'm sorta still frazzled and somewhat exhausted so I again apologize for the random and disorganized responses. 

In any case thank you to everyone giving their input. It's greatly appreciated.


[Edit] Oh, and I realize I probably didn't react in the best way to the attack that happened this morning, but in my defense I was half-asleep and mostly exhausted, and caught completely by surprise. Abby yelping and screaming didn't help and with the size difference in the dogs I feared Tika might kill Abby so I pretty much just reacted and pulled her off. I will try to remember your advice if I find myself in the middle of another attack, though I hope I won't have to and can find a way to prevent it. But again thanks in any case.


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## Harbud (Aug 27, 2013)

I agree with all the previous posts, and certainly agree they should NOT be together when no one is present. After ruling out medical reasons you should consider enlisting the help of a dog behaviour therapist (not just a trainer) to help sort through this. 
Dogs don't usually attack for no reason. Your two are probably having more exchanges then your human eyes have picked up.


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

Could it be some form of Epilepsy?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I feared Tika might kill Abby so I pretty much just reacted and pulled her off.


Did the aggression build up over time. I'm thinking there might not have been damage done the first time the aggression occurred. This suggests how you deal with it is causing more intensity. Certainly screaming is adding tension to the situation. 



> Tika gets more of the traditional walking, and we try to do that at least once a day or failing that every other day.


It's not enough. Walk her more and you might see some improvement. I walk my dogs twice a day. And always at least once. Every second day can equate to 3 walks a week. This can build frustration imo.



> Tika can also do that sorta, but she has a habit of not wanting to let go of whatever you just threw.


This is a sign of a lack of training. I would spend time with Tika on her own and train her a bit more and exercise her by walking and bringing her for a quick cycle. 15 minutes on a bike is great exercise for a dog.

Start to play ball with her on her own. Get a ball on a string and start to teach her to get the ball and release when you say. Make it fun. Hide the ball and instruct her to seek it out. 

Try to figure out reasons why the dogs start fighting. Are there any signs like uncomfortable silence before. Is the heeler dog acting fearful. Research a bit of dog behavior and body language. You need to understand as much as possible in order to help them.

I would also encourage Tika not to follow you around so much. This is like an uncertainty. If the dog is comfortable and well exercised it will just rest when at home. Practice having her stay in one place when you leave the room for a little bit. I think it can get better with a bit of training.


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## Vee2003 (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok, quick status update and apologies for the lack of them so far-

Abby was taken to the vet and treated for about 3 smaller bite wounds and one big/bad one that bone chipped one of her back legs. They fixed it up as best they could and gave us anti-biotics and pain killers to help. Hopefully she'll heal up ok, but the vet said they could refer us to a surgeon if needed if the leg wasn't healing right.

That night my dad came home and was basically of the opinion that it was time to put Tika down. I debated(argued) with him for a while on it, and then spent the rest of the night reading a lot of stuff on dog aggression. A lot of it lined up with some of the stuff here, so I decided to try and make a plan that would hopefully help Tika be ok. I talked to my dad again the when he got home next and he was alright with it, so it looks like Tika is at least safe for the moment.

Going to try and walk her at least twice a day for 30-ish minutes walks if I can manage it. I am also messing around with trying to teach Tika to catch better, since that was suggested, and seeing if I can get her to stay in a room without a person without looking for us right away. Will let you know how that goes. Also going to separate toys and food/water areas for the dogs so there will be no jealousy, and generally keep them apart. This should hopefully solve the problem twice, since if Tika is not/less stressed and has nothing to be mad at Abby about there shouldn't be a problem and even if there is she can't attack her if she's not loose out with her.

I'll try to update again if anything new and interesting happens. And as always, thanks for the help. It has been appreciated.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I worked with a lady who had two lab mix females with similar problems, friends one minute and then sudden fights. One dog tended to be the aggressor. She got with trainer and implemented everything suggested like a real trooper, it was part training and part management.

Separating the food bowls is a good idea. Each dog has it's own bowl and eats it's food from that bowl every time.

I saw WWIII break out between a chocolate lab and yellow lab who had shared the same bowl. The chocolate lab would sometimes guard the bowl just to show she was boss. Finally one day the yellow lab had it and didn't back down and two dogs that had lived peacefully for many years had one of the worst fights I've personally witnessed. (I had warned the owner that he should feed them separately).

My dogs each get fed in the same bowl in the same spot. They know where their spot is and they go to their spot before I will put the food down. Then I'm the 'food bowl police' even anyone of them makes a move for another dog's bowl I stop them. Now it's just with a firm 'No', with the young dogs I body block. I am so firm with this rule they don't even test me anymore.


Good luck!




Vee2003 said:


> *thinks*
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> ...


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## Stephanie Crochet (May 31, 2020)

I have the same situation ~GS 6 yr female and male mini Aussie 3yr that were raised together. Always played well together. GS always been other animal protective but very socialized to people. Don’t understand what happened but recently GS attacks Aussie when we walk out on back porch. 



Vee2003 said:


> _thinks_
> 
> Unusual stuff... we recently moved, so tensions and stresses may be higher than normal. However, this problem started happening a long while ago before anything involving moving, so I don't know how to think about that, except maybe chalk up increased stress as a danger factor?
> 
> ...


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

OP made this post in 2013 and has not been active since.

If you have a similar concern, it would be better to start your own post. 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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