# Victor(people aggressive)-thundershirt/bach flower remedy



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Well as recommended through my other threads about Victor I have tried the thundershirt and bach flower remedy. The t-shirt I could see where it would work well for other dogs, but in Victor's case it is not something I will be able to use all the time. The problem with it is it makes him too hot. He did not lunge for anyone though. He would still follow them closely when they got up. They still had to be cautious with their movements and announce themselves when they came into the room.

He panted heavily with it on. It seemed to overheat him. I did just the t-shirt at first, but like I said he got excessively hot with it on. Then I did a combo of Bach flower remedy and t-shirt that worked ok. He did not lunge for anyone just followed them. He was still watching them all like a hawk though. If anyone moved he went to them immediately and followed them. I took the t-shirt off because he was so hot. He had the remedy that morning and he did ok with that. He drank excessively though. I don't know if it was from having the shirt on earlier or the remedy. He went outside to play ball with them sans the shirt. He did well with that he did not act aggressive with anyone. He ran across the yard to my neice though when she was jumping up trying to get moss out of a tree with a stick. I redirected him from her with his favorite ball. He left her alone then. The remedy did seem to take the edge off of him, but not enough for me to trust him not to act aggressive if something set him off. However since he has been using the flower remedy he has not shown anymore aggression with Lola/ or the other dogs like he did before so I believe it did help with that. 

At this point because I feel like I will never be able to trust him with others I am wondering if I should just go back to crating him and not allowing any interactions with guests. I am not sure if I should venture into prescription meds. with him since he seems to have reactions to natural remedies(excessive drooling/overheating/excessive drinking/panting). I am afraid he is going to react badly to prescription meds. and totally flip out. I am just not sure if I should just accept that he will never do well with my other family/guests and just crate him or keep trying to involve him in the family activities? I am curious as to what other members would do? Isolate him from things that trigger his aggression or keeping trying with prescription meds? 
Thank you in advance and I look forward to any suggestions and/or advice.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

No one? I hope I put this in the right spot.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If it's genetic then the thundershirt is comforting a dog that might not be that scared? Try the DAP pheremones stuff? Maybe it will just mellow him down? Isolation would, I think, make any dog react with more aggression to invaders into his world. 

That would not be a fix for the dog, but a fix for the situation. 

Intact?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are no behaviorist trainers that you can work with? 
With dogs that are reactive, it is sometimes best to crate them when unfamiliar people are over so you aren't overstimulating the dog. I have to do this with Onyx and it is just how it has to be. I don't want to set her up to fail.
I would still try to keep Victor in a structured social environment(some type of training) and with maturity, he may mellow some.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

You know after dumping a ridiculous amount of money into a behaviorist we have come to the conclusion Zoe will never be good with kids except mine- it's the way it is and it can't be fixed. However, now if it is just an adult over or two she is fine!!!!!! So to answer your question the crate may be the best thing. It prevents aggression before it starts, calms the dog, and makes everyone happy- not a bad solution A behaviorist did help us realize why she doesn't like kids in my home though and gave us a better understanding of why the crate in this case is best. We're still working with decoys who come to my home and it's been great. Zoe does not follow strangers in the downstairs anymore unless they head toward our upstairs so obviously thats off limits unless she is crated as well but it does get ever so slightly better I promise.

On a side not the DAP plug in is making NO difference though they do say it can take up to 3 months- if anything it has made her more puppy like and hyper,lol


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> If it's genetic then the thundershirt is comforting a dog that might not be that scared? Try the DAP pheremones stuff? Maybe it will just mellow him down? Isolation would, I think, make any dog react with more aggression to invaders into his world.
> 
> That would not be a fix for the dog, but a fix for the situation.
> 
> *Intact?*


 
No, Victor is neutered. It had no effect on him at all. He is still just as aggressive as he was before. Crating him works as long as he can see the people when they come in the yard. I have to muzzle him and he always is leashed I do introductions and then crate him that goes well. I will look into the DAP as I was recommended this before as well as the thundershirt and Bach flower remedy. I decided to try those two first.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> You know after dumping a ridiculous amount of money into a behaviorist we have come to the conclusion Zoe will never be good with kids except mine- it's the way it is and it can't be fixed. However, now if it is just an adult over or two she is fine!!!!!! So to answer your question the crate may be the best thing. It prevents aggression before it starts, calms the dog, and makes everyone happy- not a bad solution A behaviorist did help us realize why she doesn't like kids in my home though and gave us a better understanding of why the crate in this case is best. We're still working with decoys who come to my home and it's been great. Zoe does not follow strangers in the downstairs anymore unless they head toward our upstairs so obviously thats off limits unless she is crated as well but it does get ever so slightly better I promise.
> 
> *On a side not the DAP plug in is making NO difference though they do say it can take up to 3 months- if anything it has made her more puppy like and hyper,lol*


 
Ok so the DAP does not work then? So you have not been using it for very long? I definately don't need him more hyper.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> *There are no behaviorist trainers that you can work with? *
> With dogs that are reactive, it is sometimes best to crate them when unfamiliar people are over so you aren't overstimulating the dog. I have to do this with Onyx and it is just how it has to be. I don't want to set her up to fail.
> I* would still try to keep Victor in a structured social environment(some type of training) and with maturity, he may mellow some*.


No, there truly isn't. Sometimes it is really such a disadvantage living so far out in the country. 

I sure hope he mellows with age. I did find yet another member with a dog from the same place. Her dog is one yr. older than Victor and unfortunately he is the same with the aggression. I was so hoping that Victor would mellow out, but hers hasn't and he is three. Victor will be 2 soon so I don't know if he will. I am hopeful.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I use to use the DAP on my Great Dane..I didn't feel it worked with my dane. You do have to make sure you buy the correct amount for your square footage. I think its one plug in per 500 sq ft or something. I think my GD issue is genetic though (per breeder), so in that case DAP wouldn't work.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Doubtful if he will change unless you can do some training. I don't think that dogs generally stop being aggressive by themselves.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

@just me leslie, I understand your stress. My GD was so people aggressive that he would attack the TV when he heard children laughing or crying on it. The only saving grace I have had is that he is now so old that he hardly notice anything anymore. (most days)


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Doubtful if he will change unless you can do some training. I don't think that dogs generally stop being aggressive by themselves.


I totally agree, I gave up after one trainer and a few meds. Max had already bitten 3 people when I adopted him. Its been a stressful 9 years. Do everything you can.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

krystyne73 said:


> I use to use the DAP on my Great Dane..I didn't feel it worked with my dane. You do have to make sure you buy the correct amount for your square footage. I think its one plug in per 500 sq ft or something. *I think my GD issue is genetic though (per breeder), so in that case DAP wouldn't work*.


 
Well, I definately know Victor's aggression is genetic. He is not fear aggressive he is one of the exceptions because most aggressive dogs are fear driven. So since his is genetic I suppose that means that things like the thundershirt and DAP will not work. I don't want to spend tons of money on another product that won't work. I have a large house so I don't know if the DAP is something I should try. All that I have read here about DAP it does not look promising as it probably won't work for him.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

genetic or not, i think you might be moving to fast with him around people..........even though the Bach Flowers and T-shirt are being used, you still cannot rush things in doing so you are senstitizing rather than desensitizing, but repeating bad habits ............you have to relize that with dogs like these the conditioning takes a long time, and you cannot rush it or you get set back..........the best thing is not to have him in situations you know he's going to fail at.........why don't you back up the distance from people work Obedience around them, let him just get comfortable being busy around people rather than him having nothing to do but follow people around, because doing that he's still practicing his old behavior and could potential react...........its our job to keep them from reacting giving them something else to do.........


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JustMeLeslie said:


> So since his is genetic I suppose that means that things like the thundershirt and DAP will not work. I don't want to spend tons of money on another product that won't work. I have a large house so I don't know if the DAP is something I should try. All that I have read here about DAP it does not look promising as it probably won't work for him.


I'm not so sure that you can say the thundershirt and Essences won't work because it is a genetic problem. The thundershirt works to calm a dog by compression of the nervous system which could still help to keep him calm. I would still be using it. It doesn't have to be on him all the time, I think you are only supposed to use it for short periods.

Which flower essence did you use? Did you consult someone who has been to school for flower essences to help you pick the right one?

I had hoped someone would be able to talk to you about behavioral drugs that has used them. Since it is genetic, I would think that changing his brain chemistry (like we do with humans that are bipolar for example) might help.

I'm not an expert on any of it, those are just my thoughts. I agree with Debbie that you might be trying to do too much too soon. You need to take things slow and just hope for little improvements week by week. You likely are never going to be able to let your guard down completely with him but you can manage his environment to keep him safe.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Sloooooooooooooooooooooow. Yes. 

Woo-woo thought: animal communicator

Hard to find a good one - you need recommendations from people.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i do agree you should get educated on the Bach Flower remedies......there are 38 different bach flower remedies, each one addressing a different feeling.........i think Rescue remedy only has like 5 of them........you have to know what each one addresses and put the proper combo together with some educated help..........i use a combo of 4 for Sam,,,,,,,,you also have to administer it on a regular daily basis, usually 2-4 drops 2 or 3 times a day.............there needs to be regularity for it to work well...........that along with careful conditioning and recognizing the signals your dog is giving, body lauguage etc, before moving forward and proceeding to the next level of exposure.......


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I just want to let everyone know that Victor was euthanized earlier today. My husband and I had to make this hard decision with him due to the fact that he yet again ran(lunged) after a family member. He also attacked our mastiff again she is ok though. Lola(mastiff) was afraid of him. It was not an easy decision and our hearts are broken, but we felt as if the choice was the right one to make for our remaining dogs and family. I can't speak for my husband, but I am heartbroken over this. We stayed with him until he closed his eyes. He was not alone. We were there with him. It was not Victor's fault he was so aggressive. My husband and I loved Victor very much, but we just could not trust him not to hurt one of our other animals or our family. 

The only comfort I do have in this situation is that at least while he was with us he got to enjoy life and play. His previous owners kept him in a crate 90%-95% of the time due to his aggression with people. He did not get to play or have fun and just let loose. When he came to us he did not know how to even play or walk on the grass for that matter. I take comfort in knowing that at least we gave him that. He was happy to have a yard to run and play in. 

I hope that everyone on this board can forgive us for this and I am still wanted as a member here. It will break my heart even more if I am not wanted here anymore. I also would like to say I truly appreciate all help/advice and support I have received here trying to help me with Victor.
Thank you so much.


Leslie


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

:hugs: Hugs to you and your family for having to make that difficult decision. 

Leslie, IMO there is absolutely nothing to forgive. You did what you think was best for Victor and your family. Victor is now free from the anxiety he felt every day. 

:halogsd: RIP Victor


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

It's not appropriate for anyone to judge your decision--you and your husband made it after a great deal of thought and consideration and with love for Victor. May the demons that plagued him in life be his angels now.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

^ agree


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Im sorry. I know you tried to help him.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Ok so the DAP does not work then? So you have not been using it for very long? I definately don't need him more hyper.


Oh no  I didn't read past what I quoted yet... comment is moot

So sorry  I don't know the full details of the situation but I don't judge people for making a sound decision even if its a tough and unpalatable one. Sorry for your loss


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry. You went above and beyond to try and save this dog, you have nothing to apologize for. I commend you for the lengths you went to and know you did all you could. I'm glad he had the time he did with you.


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

May I ask a question?
What is this dog eating, brand, formula, etc?


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Yikes, I am sorry, I did not read the last portion of the posts.
I apologize for any upset my last inquiry has caused any upset.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you all for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

So sorry for your loss. Even though it is a difficult decision, take heart in the fact that you did all you could.
He's free now and will be waiting to see you at The Bridge.


:rip: Victor


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

WOW! What a difficult decision to have to make. My deepest sympathy to you and your family!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Leslie, no one would fault you for the most difficult decision. And your right, if you hadn't taken VIctor he would probably never have know happiness within a family.

I know how very hard this has to be and I know you went above and beyond for him.
Don't blame yourself because you couldn't rid him of his demons.

And of course don't you dare think of leaving this board. Hugs to you all I'm so sorry you had to make this decision(


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## CHawkins (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm sure this was a very hard decision to make. I am also sure that you made his life the best while he was with you. May you find peace.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Leslie,
Not many people would have even tried with Victor. You worked so hard and made his time on earth the best he ever knew. I am so very sorry for your loss. I know this was such a difficult decision for you and your husband.

Big hugs!
Jan


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you so much everyone. I have his picture and collar on my desk right where I can see him everyday. I will never forget him. I learned a lot about GSDs thanks to Victor and that is something I will have with me forever. Jamie is doing ok, but she keeps looking for him. She has been following my husband and I around all day. I hope she will be alright she was very attached to him even though he would sometimes get very mad at her and beat her up.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Leslie, my condolences to you and your family. I know the decision was very difficult and Victor was let go with compassion and love. I hope you can find comfort in knowing you had to do it for him so he could be at peace. 
Run free Victor :halogsd:


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks to everyone. I appreciate the compassion. It helps make it tolerable for me. I feel like I failed him. I know this is part of the grieving process. I have been here before many times with old and sick animals, but I have never had to do this for aggression. It just hurts real bad. I am so confused and still going over everything in my mind. Like I said before I have never had to deal with this level of aggression in an animal so it just makes this whole thing a little worse. I guess I just needed to vent a little-so thank you all for listening.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What a rough decission.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Leslie, it is so clear to everyone here that you tried hard to help Victor. He is at peace now. My condolences to you and your family.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

so, sorry you had to make this decision..........you tried the best you could and did what you thought best for him and for your family........


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear about Victor but you did everything you could for him.

I am so very sorry for your loss!

RIP Victor.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Stosh said:


> It's not appropriate for anyone to judge your decision--you and your husband made it after a great deal of thought and consideration and with love for Victor. May the demons that plagued him in life be his angels now.


Agreed. My sympathy for your difficult time and decision.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you everyone! Everyone's comments have helped so much. Jamie jumped in the bed this morning and gave hugs and kisses to us-it was precious. Jamie has been very attentive and very loving with both of us. It is like she can sense the heartache we are going through. Her loving on us has helped a lot.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm sure she can sense how upset you are and it has to be hard on her too-- this whole experience will no doubt bring her closer.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I am so sorry but you did the right thing. It is one thing for a dog to be aggressive with strangers, but attacking family and household pets crosses the line


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I am so sorry about Victor  . I was always hoping that he would get better, but sometimes they just can't be helped. I think you did everything you could, and I am happy you made this tough decision before someone got seriously hurt  . It's gotta be so tough to get to that breaking point .... RIP Victor


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

PupperLove said:


> I am so sorry about Victor  . I was always hoping that he would get better, but sometimes they just can't be helped. I think you did everything you could, and I am happy you made this tough decision before someone got seriously hurt  . It's gotta be so tough to get to that breaking point .... RIP Victor


Yes,it was really tough to come to the decision. Yesterday was not a good day we had to euthanize Victor and we also learned our 15.5 yr. old cat will have to be euthanized soon also. She has cancer and can't survive the surgery to remove the huge tumor. Her kidneys are shutting down due to her age. It was a lot to take in all in one day.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh no, I'm so sorry. You have really been through a tough time. I hope it helps to know that others are keeping you and your family in thoughts and prayers.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm so sorry about your cat. You didn't need to face this so soon. I kind of like to think that no one goes to the bridge alone. When kitty crosses on this side, Victor will be waiting on the other.

Hugs and Prayers,
Jan


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Oh no, I'm so sorry. You have really been through a tough time. I hope it helps to know that others are keeping you and your family in thoughts and prayers.


 
It certainly does help. This forum and all of you wonderful people on here have been my saving grace. I never expected to love this forum as much as I do. It is the only site I am on. I am not a member of any public forum or social sites other than this one. The support here has helped me tremendously.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I'm so sorry about your cat. You didn't need to face this so soon. I kind of like to think that no one goes to the bridge alone. When kitty crosses on this side, Victor will be waiting on the other.
> 
> Hugs and Prayers,
> Jan


Thank you, Don't you worry about her she will have many of our past furry family waiting for her. We have always loved animals and have had many, most from cradle to the grave so to speak. She will not be alone that is for sure.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Yes,it was really tough to come to the decision. Yesterday was not a good day we had to euthanize Victor and we also learned our 15.5 yr. old cat will have to be euthanized soon also. She has cancer and can't survive the surgery to remove the huge tumor. Her kidneys are shutting down due to her age. It was a lot to take in all in one day.


Oh no,  Im so sorry for all that you are going through right now with your animals. They make such an impact on our lives, that's for sure. Im glad that Victor is finally at peace, but like I said I was always holding out hope for him, but I am glad you were able to make a responsible decision for him and for everyone else. That takes courage. I am glad you were able to have him for the time you did, because in the pictures you have of him, he definatley has a big smile on his face which shows you gave him a good life.

I am hoping for the best for your kitty too. I hope she has some more sunny days ahead for her. Hugs to you for all of this, it really has to be alot to take in in one day.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh Leslie, I'm so sorry. I know how much you love him, and that you did everything possible. :hugs:


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I just wanted everyone to know that I will be passing Victor's thundershirt on to Tanner(Minnieski). Tanner is a part of Victor(same parents/different litters) and I feel as if this shirt needs to be passed on so hopefully it can help another. If it was not for this forum we would have never found each other so I am so thankful for that. I hope that shirt can help Tanner as it could not help Victor. Thanks once again to everyone for the continued support.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

That's such a generous thing to do-- hopefully Tanner will find some comfort in it.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Stosh said:


> That's such a generous thing to do-- hopefully Tanner will find some comfort in it.


It just feels like the right thing to do. I mulled over whether to send the shirt back or not, but I just could not do it. I just hope it can help Tanner. I want to see Tanner succeed in overcoming his genetic aggression where Victor just could not for that would give me great comfort.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I am sorry for your loss(es) if I didn't post that early. I might have to research about the Thundershirt, to see if it could help Macy.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Thank you Leslie, for everything. I'm going to work as hard as I can with Tanner. My heart is breaking for you and for Victor. I'm glad that we were able to find each other.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Leslie i am so sorry!! I've apparently missed a great deal! I know you tried everything you could with Victor. The fact that you tried says so much. He had a chance to experience the love of a family. You gave him something special. Sorry for the tough decision you guys had to make. Never easy.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you everyone.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I know I am late, but I just want to say I am truly sorry for your loss. You did everything you could to help him. He did know that there are humans out there who love and care.

RIP Victor


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I know I am late, but I just want to say I am truly sorry for your loss. You did everything you could to help him. He did know that there are humans out there who love and care.
> 
> RIP Victor


Thank you so much. He will never be forgotten by us he taught us so much. The knowledge we have now and this wonderful forum is definately helping us to raise Jamie properly.


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