# Protective? fearful?! AHH



## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

This is my first time on this forum! And I'd have to say I love it! Down to the issue at hand, I have a 3 year old named Maverick who is what I think is either stranger aggressive, protective, just fearful? Example: He was tied up to the tree in the front yard and me and the kids are out there and the neighbor across the street goes to check his mail (on the curb) he barks and runs toward him with his hawk up from ears to tail! Yesterday this happened before I could correct him to stay. If it's just me walking him I can control him just fine and keep him focused. This is where my problem is, anyone comes to the door crazy barking, so Thanksgiving we had someone come over. Usually with his normal behavior of going nuts when someone he doesn't know comes near the house or near the family one would assume how are you going to have someone over?! I just him on the patio where he could see the guest enter our house. Barking of course the whole time. Then I had the guest go over to the patio door (which isn't glass) just so Mav could get a good whiff of him from under the door. I put a cage muzzle on (just in case), have the guest sit at the table or couch, then bring him in. I tell my guest, don't look at him, touch him or talk to him. Then with surprise Mav just goes over and gives a good smell then in his own way asks to get the muzzle off. I take it off and hes fine (probably don't need it on at all). Once the guest is on our turf because WE invited him in, he seems fine. UGH I don't know what to do about the aggressiveness outside. Someone can walk by the car and he goes nuts. I work him for probably two solid hours, on top of several walks a day. I try to do everything a good pack leader would do, I just think maybe he thinks my kids and husband need protecting? Alone I usually am able to stop the unwanted behavior before it starts...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Regardless of the origin of the behavior the prescription is more or less the same. You need a good counter conditioning training plan to fix it.

If he is fine out in the world and not reactive around strangers on walks there may be an element of territoriality involved rather than nerves or what have you. It's got to be counter conditioned because the behavior with the barking and lunging is self reinforcing to the point of addiction. Dog sees trigger there's a rush of adrenaline dog gets excited dog gets reactive trigger leaves dog declares victory and a rush of endorphins for the success hits him...the trick is to break that cycle before it starts.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

look up barrier aggression


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

Another note, if someone were to approach me for instance, to ask me directions, he would NOT have that. It would take a great deal for me to keep him calm. This is where I'm not sure if its protective or fearful.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The matter of why is harder to discern through a post than to see it in action. If you want to know the why find a good behaviorist. Either way a good counter conditioning program will fix it.

I'm not sure if there can be protection without an element of fear to a certain extent, either they fear a threat to a resource and/or themselves.

Either way the why doesn't matter.


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

Agreed. We want to bring a new puppy to into our pack but I don't want her to learn this undesired behavior. So I'm guessing to wait until I achieve the results I'm looking for 100% of the time?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That wouldn't be necessary. You would just want to keep the puppy separate from your adult dog in the presence of triggers that would set your older dog off, so that the puppy didn't carry on with him. You would probably want to keep them separated anyway except for brief socialization visits so that the little guys primary bond forms with you and the other humans in your house instead of the older dog.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

a dog that is barking and lunging for no reason is rarely ever protective. if someone is asking you for directions, what do you need protection from? a dog that huffs and puffs is just trying to scare the "threat" away. a fearful dog thinks anything out of the ordinary is a threat. when you have him on leash he goes even more crazy because he is restricted. he has a fight or flight response and a fearful dog will want to flee but since he's on leash he cant so he freaks out even more to try to scare the threat away. 

i'd get a good trainer to help you. this might not be popular but to me i'd use an ecollar on a dog like this. meaning i teach him the sit or down command with an ecollar. once he is solid with the command i then add duration. if he breaks the sit then the shock comes. he has to learn that staying in the sit is his "safe zone". then have someone walk by the house. if he breaks the sit to bark and lunge then the zap automatically comes. once he sits again the zap stops. the dog will eventually learn that the zap comes when he leaves his safe zone aka the sit or down. after awhile he'll learn that when a person walks by and he doesnt break his sit then there is no zap. he'll also realize that hey someone walked by and nothing bad happened. over time he'll learn that people walking by arent threats to him so he doesnt need to huff and puff. i'd recommend a trainer who knows what they're doing to help you though. if done wrong, the dog could associate the shock with the person walking by the house. if this is the case then the dog will go even more insane because they think the person is the cause of the shock.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Again it's not really important for changing the behavior itself but protection from a threat that isn't classified a threat to us but is to the dog is still protection. It doesn't mean the dog is super fearful per se it just means there is a difference in opinion between what constitutes a threat between you and the dog. 

In protection work the dog isn't usually allowed to make that determination on his own, it's instilled in training or put on commands. The dog flipping out or reacting to littler stuff doesn't always mean nervy sometimes it's just boredom and it can be relieved through the addictive reactive process I described above. Sometimes it's mistakes in leash work that build drive and frustration and that becomes misinterpreted. Could be the dogs drives for resource guarding behavior are stronger and you're seeing a reflection of that.

You could be right the dog could be nervy but to just assume so based on what was written by the op is in my opinion jumping to conclusions a bit. Ones that I've seen start fights on here time and time again especially if someone brought into question the value of the dog. Not saying you did that, just saying I see it a lot.

I'd hate to see some of you guys with malinois you'd just go assuming the dog is a bag of nerves because it's reactive. If you had a malinois that isn't leaning on the reactive side you might want to worry a bit.

In short we don't know what we don't know and it doesn't really matter that much. The solution is generally pretty similar if not identical in this situation. Also how do you expect a dog to know what and who is a threat and what isn't without training.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Again it's not really important for changing the behavior itself but protection from a threat that isn't classified a threat to us but is to the dog is still protection. It doesn't mean the dog is super fearful per se it just means there is a difference in opinion between what constitutes a threat between you and the dog.
> 
> In short we don't know what we don't know and it doesn't really matter that much. The solution is generally pretty similar if not identical in this situation. Also how do you expect a dog to know what and who is a threat and what isn't without training.


well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree but to me you dont need to train a dog what is a threat and what isnt. all dogs arent born barking at everything until they are told otherwise. they are born neutral and only when they are nervous or unsure is when they bark. if a dog barks at everything then it is born nervous and unsure. 

also what is a threat to me and what is a threat to a dog can be different but in this case, the dog is barking at every single human that walks past. how can every single human be a threat? and just because a dog see's something as a threat does not mean its protecting. its trying to scare the threat away. protecting means a dog that is willing to stand and fight. there is a big difference between a dog that is sharp/reactive and one that is fearful/reactive. a malinois can be overly sharp but if i see one that barks at everything and cant settle then yeah i'd consider it nervy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't even think we are disagreeing. You could be right, nothing you said was untrue in some cases, I'm simply saying there are other causes and possibilities for the behavior.


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks both of you for the responses, you gave me different angles to look at. I think I need to get him to where he's constantly "watching me" waiting for my next command. That will take a lot of time and effort but seeing I am a stay at home mom, I do have the time I can put into it. Any suggestions would be great.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

How old is the dog? How is he with traffic, loud noises, push chairs and umbrellas?

Have you had the dog all it's life.

How would you describe his temperament? 



> anyone comes to the door crazy barking,


I find with dogs like this, it's good getting them used to going to a place, it's bed or another room and staying there when a visitor arrives. When the visitor has entered and sits down let the dog out of it's position and it should go and check put the person. Important for the visitor to continue to ignore the dog for a while until he gets comfortable. 

When dogs bark at visitors they end up being the center of attention. You don't want that. You want to show the dog the visitor is there to meet you and the dog is shown he is not really involved as it is human business. 

Also go through the routine of ringing the door bell and knocking over and over with the dog when there is no visitor at all. Open the door over and over to get him totally used to the noise of the door. Basically his behavior has built up over time so you now need to desensitize him to all noise associated with the door. 

You may find the dog acting nervous around the door when it's open. In which case it's good to get him to sit and not allowed to cross the border. You go outside, come back in a few times. Then bring him out on leash and then back again a load of times. Bring treats and feed when the dog is calm. You start to show the dog the boundary to the house is not a source of stress.



> I work him for probably two solid hours, on top of several walks a day. I try to do everything a good pack leader would do, I just think maybe he thinks my kids and husband need protecting? Alone I usually am able to stop the unwanted behavior before it starts...


What work are you doing. Sometimes being a good leader is making sure the dog knows it's place. Figuring out how to act around the dog to limit the reactivity and telling everybody else how to act around the dog. It is not just providing the walks and doing obedience or games.

For issues like this the dog actually needs to learn about his environment and realize his aggressiveness is not needed. Sometimes you just go somewhere there is plenty of people and just sit there for a while. The dog should observe people and start to realize they are not all threat. 

I would not do any exciting things with the dog like flirt pole. I'd work on calming the dog. I believe reactive dogs need de motivation rather than any motivation. If it has good ball drive or food drive then you can try using that to redirect the dog when getting fixated with people. It is probably beyond that stage but worth a try.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I might add Tyler Mutos video page. A lot of examples of dogs being rehabbed through proper leash control. It is a simple way to change the state of mind of the dog and show him you are in control. Also note Tyler's calmness and composure. It is very important to be above the dog psychologically imo. Never get frustrated or angry. Accept the way it is and wait for it to change naturally. 

Tyler Muto - YouTube


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Great posts by madlab the only thing if add is flirt pole is fine toy distraction is fine. As long as the dog is ignoring triggers and carrying on and playing with you and engaged with you and not practicing his usual habit of reactivity it is a good thing. You pretty much just want to interrupt that cycle of I see I get fixated I get excited I get reactive. Ideally you interrupt between the I see I get fixated part of that behavior. Anytime after that it gets way harder. How you choose to do that is up to you but food or toy would be the most common ways. Some people do it by giving a command they know well like look at me and reward compliance and use aversive to non compliance. I prefer not to just because I want to keep the experience as positive as possible. On the other hand if I mess up and the dog lunges then I'll pull straight up on the leash and keep the dogs front feet off the ground till he sits or downs and then I'll relieve the pressure. Never pull directly in opposition to them.


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

Maverick is 3 years old, I have had him all his life, however we went from my husbands parents' house with a total of 6 different people there, not one of us being a clear pack leader (first problem for me now!) to moving with just my husband and two kids. I now find myself having to reestablish my ranking over him. 

When I work him, I take him where the most distractions would be, to do basic obedience on 4ft leash, 30ft leash, I have my two year old give him commands which all he obeys. I live on a naval base and exactly 3:30pm everybody comes home, tons of traffic, school buses etc. I've been taking him out there just to observe. He usually just lays and watches ears perked. 

Other than that his temperament is actually pretty laid back. He's got my 2 year old and 9 month old crawling on him. He's not a very hyper dog, yes he needs exercise, but definitely not as active as I thought he was going to be. When I am working on commands, getting him motivated is the hardest part. 

He has been to obedience training (4 week boot camp). At first they weren't going to take him because they thought he was to risky. Then once he was away from us and only with the several trainers he was fine. He hadn't been crate trained until then either, but in a matter of one night he was good to go. 

He's got the potential, just need to get him there!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The pack leader stuff has been debunked by science over and over. Go to the library and check out the book called the culture clash by jean Donaldson. Aside from being a good read it will help kill off some of those popular notions that are going to be holding your training back.

http://youtu.be/pEXQsYEaYcI

That is a good vid on it but the book is better if you want the nuts and bolts of it from a behaviorist.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

PS try not to get lost in his dead soulless eyes...lol


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

you weren't kidding! O_O


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## OhWhyChyGuy (Dec 4, 2013)

UPDATE: I waited for my neighbor to come home (which set him off yesterday). As he pulled into his driveway I had Maverick lay down and kept his focus with a treat. He looked at him a few times while he checked his mail, but continued to keep looking at me for a reward. No barking, no fixation, didn't even get up to address the uniformed man. Progress. YES.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah and that was just interrupting it isn't even a set behavior yet. If you really get in there with a serious desensitization routine he will come outta this. I doubt he is going to be a very hard case.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Again it's not really important for changing the behavior itself but protection from a threat that isn't classified a threat to us but is to the dog is still protection. It doesn't mean the dog is super fearful per se it just means there is a difference in opinion between what constitutes a threat between you and the dog.
> 
> In protection work the dog isn't usually allowed to make that determination on his own, it's instilled in training or put on commands. The dog flipping out or reacting to littler stuff doesn't always mean nervy sometimes it's just boredom and it can be relieved through the addictive reactive process I described above. Sometimes it's mistakes in leash work that build drive and frustration and that becomes misinterpreted. Could be the dogs drives for resource guarding behavior are stronger and you're seeing a reflection of that.
> 
> ...


In my humble opinion you hit the nail on the head! Bill

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Also boomer could also be right.really need to see dog

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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with bailif some dogs are also sharper than others and will see something as a threat that might not be, these dogs are usually for more experienced people but it doesnt mean they wont tear someone a new one when things go bad, the problem is these days most seem to be nerve bags that is why people will label them that but in reality aftering seeing a lot work in pp you realize nothing is really what it seems.. SOme dogs have a lot of social aggression.


Like the other person said if the dog is very stable in public but aggressive around the house sounds like territorial dominance to me.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would wait to get a puppy until you have had a chance to work on things with your current dog. anytime you have a problem dog that really needs to be addressed before adding another. because no matter how careful you are things do rub off on impressionable pups. get a private trainer and focus on the issues you have, it may take a while, but you can get to a better place. then at that time you will be more prepared and can experience the joy of a new pup without the stress of other issues.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

debbiebrown said:


> *i would wait to get a puppy until you have had a chance to work on things with your current dog*. anytime you have a problem dog that really needs to be addressed before adding another. because no matter how careful you are things do rub off on impressionable pups. get a private trainer and focus on the issues you have, it may take a while, but you can get to a better place. then at that time you will be more prepared and can experience the joy of a new pup without the stress of other issues.


I'm 100% in agreement with this. I purposely have a 5 year split in age between my dogs EXACTLY so I can spend the time to train, go to classes, socialize and make one dog 'practically perfect' before even thinking about adding another.

Our dogs absolutely pick up things from the other dogs in the family. So if the older dogs are good, then it's wonderful. If the older dogs have issues then I've just now DOUBLED the problem and usually the older dog gets worse with the 'reinforcements' joining the mess!!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Absolutely! its a disaster waiting to happen.............take care of the problems you have first...........you will be doing yourself, your current dog and your future pup a Huge favor......


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