# Right breeder/ right puppy?



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I see a lot of posts about people looking for puppies, and most of the replies involve "finding the right breeder". Is it just me or is this completely wrong? Really, you should be looking for the "right puppy", not the right breeder. After all, it is that puppy that you will be working, not the breeder.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

There are three things I want to see if I were to buy a puppy, the pedigree, the parents(chances are I know the parents if I want a puppy from them) and the puppies (the entire litter). 
What is the deal with people thinking that the breeder should choose the pup? If I was buying a pup there is no way in Hades that I would let someone else make this determination for me.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

qth


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## Gladi (Apr 19, 2011)

That's true, what are some important things too look for when choosing a puppy from a litter?

(I'm looking into buying a puppy)


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I much prefer that the breeder pick for me!!! They have been with those pups for 8 weeks, sometimes longer and know exactly which pups have which personalities. Plus, my pup is going to be imported. I have talked extensively to my breeder and feel confident he will send me what I am looking for. He has much more experience than I do picking a pup with certain characteristics out.

I went with my friend when she got her Portie pup - she wanted a very active dog that would run with her every day and do agility. The breeder picked him out. When we were bringing him home, he was sooooo mellow and cuddly and quiet. Didn't want to do much. She was a little concerned he might not be what she wanted. Took him one day to settle in and now he's crazy, hyper and active and exactly what she wanted. If she had "picked" her own pup - she would NEVER have gotten the puppy that she was looking for. One day observation, or even a couple of days is not enough to really know what you are getting.


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## Zeusismydog (Aug 23, 2001)

I think the right breeder is essential. First off how the puppy is raised in the first 8 weeks will have a great impact on how he develops. Huge mistakes/mistreatment/neglect or simple improper handling can effect your puppy. 

For example (and this is just an example). If your puppy never sees the outside of a kennel. Never sees people, never feels the grass under foot. He/she will react a lot differently then a puppy that has had a lot of socializing. 

Also a good breeder can tell you what the puppy is like during it "normal" and relaxed time. I am a firm believer in puppy temperament tests (done at the right age). How do you know how the puppy is going to react to a loud noise if you haven't exposed him/her to it? How do you know if the puppy is a follower or a leader, dominate or submissive? Unless you are experienced in reading puppies it is hard to know. Just because you like the look of one puppy or that puppy comes up to you doesn't necessarily mean that it will be a good fit. Temperament is a huge factor when getting a puppy. If you are a laid back person and you like being a couch potato you don't want the energizer bunny. If you are a runner you don't want a dog that would rather lay on the sofa. If you are a soft spoken person you don't want a dog that will walk over you. How are you going to tell that by just looking at a puppy for an hour? What if on that day the puppy is stressing? He/she is suddenly reserved and quiet, when he/she is not stressing they are full of energy and very self confident.

For example. When I was getting Loki there was another puppy I really really wanted. My breeder said "NO, you would NOT be happy with him." I asked, begged but to no avail. Know what? She was 100% right. That pup and I would have been butting heads all his life and he would not have been happy with me. Sure he liked me and I LOVED him but he was all wrong for me and my life. He was energetic, he had a dominate personality, he had a strong prey. I am low energy and I wanted a dog that was very laid back. Guess what Loki fit the bill exactly. 

I think, IMHO, for a person that know the breed, the bloodlines, and how to read puppies it might be ok for them to choose their puppy. For a novice or someone that can't (or don't know how to, or is inexperienced at) read puppies then a good breeder is a MUST. You do NOT want to just go look at a litter and pick the puppy that is the "best". How are you judging that by?

IF you do pick your puppy that way it doesn't mean you will get a bad puppy. It just means that you will have to adapt to the puppies personality and it will be harder and require more work. Most puppies can be shaped and taught to be "good dogs" but (for example) if you get a laid back puppy and you are a couch potato life will be a lot easier for both of you. If you are a couch potato and you get a puppy that has tons of energy you will have a few choices to make and you (or the puppy or both) will have to adapt. 

Good luck and I hope I haven't confused anyone. I seem to be long winded tonight.


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## Gladi (Apr 19, 2011)

I found a breeder that invited me to go meet the puppies...here's a pic of the puppies' father, any opinions?


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

I think the breeder is very important. I want a breeder that has a breeding program that puts out the type of dog I need. I also want lifetime support from the breeder-in that they are always willing to answer any questions I may have during the life of the pup. Most likely due to my location, I will be flying my pup to me. It is very important that I build a good rapport with a breeder and let them know my exact needs so THEY can pick the best pup for my family. There is no way I would feel comfortable visiting the pups once and being able to correctly identify which pup would best suit me when the breeder has been with them for 8 weeks and knows their strengths and weaknesses much better than I could pinpoint in a timeframe of a couple hours.

Another reason I want to find the right breeder is due to health reasons. I lost my last GSD at a very young age due to a severe health issue. This time around I want to make sure I find a breeder that does health screenings on their dogs and so far hasn't had any major health issues in the puppies he/she produces.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

finding the right breeder is step 1 to finding the right puppy. You don't want to go to a person who breeds nothing but pet lines if you want to show in Confirmation. You don't want a breeder who specializes in high drive sable if you are looking for a mellow black and red couch potato. If you want a dog that is going to live a long and healthy life, why would you buy from someone who had an "oops" litter, zero health-testing?

As for the breeder choosing the pup, it's like the others have said. The breeder has known these pups since they were born. They know their quirks and personalities. They know that Pup A is a natural tracker, Pup B loves to strut his stuff and would excel in confirmation, Pup B is a driven pup who lives for the tug. Also, a buyer isn't likely to see the dogs' REAL personality in a single short visit. Maybe not even in multiple visits - think of how different your children behave when you have company vs when it's just the family!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think the right breeder is important, 

when looking for a puppy, I usually have something specific in mind, I DO look at lines/pedigrees, and if you can match those up with the 'right' breeder, then everything will fall into place.

However, say I found a certain line/dogs I am interested in and the breeder hadn't at the minimum done any health testing on their breeding stock, I would probably pass. 

So actually I want BOTH right puppy / right breeder


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

sddeadeye said:


> I think the breeder is very important. I want a breeder that has a breeding program that puts out the type of dog I need. I also want lifetime support from the breeder-in that they are always willing to answer any questions I may have during the life of the pup. It is very important that I build a good rapport with a breeder and let them know my exact needs so THEY can pick the best pup for my family. There is no way I would feel comfortable visiting the pups once and being able to correctly identify which pup would best suit me when the breeder has been with them for 8 weeks and knows their strengths and weaknesses much better than I could pinpoint in a timeframe of a couple hours.
> 
> I want to make sure I find a breeder that does health screenings on their dogs and so far hasn't had any major health issues in the puppies he/she produces.


:thumbup: I completely agree with this.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

_Do not put the "cart in front of the horse"........._
Know what characteristics you want in your puppy....ie temperament, genetics, drives and yes...appearance. (not solely color).
Know ALL the things that make your list.....and then search out breeders that specialize in the same characteristics & ideals that you share.
Speak to them....share your thoughts and concerns.
You are giving yourself a higher percentage of a proper match of puppy & owner.
JMO


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> There are three things I want to see if I were to buy a puppy, the pedigree, the parents(chances are I know the parents if I want a puppy from them) and the puppies (the entire litter).
> What is the deal with people thinking that the breeder should choose the pup?  If I was buying a pup there is no way in Hades that I would let someone else make this determination for me.


But Art, don't you think experience with the breed plays into that as well. Look at the experience you have vs. the experience I have. I will let my next puppy be picked by the breeder, an experienced breeder, because the breeder is going to have a better read on the puppy than I will and have an idea of what the puppy will grow in to based on their evaluation. 

With your experience, you could go watch a litter and evaluate the parents to easily pick out a puppy that is appropriate to what you want to do. For a novice, they might end up with a puppy that is way more than they can handle.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> I see a lot of posts about people looking for puppies, and most of the replies involve "finding the right breeder". Is it just me or is this completely wrong? Really, you should be looking for the "right puppy", not the right breeder. After all, it is that puppy that you will be working, not the breeder.


I agree. But don't you need to find the "right" breeder to find the "right" puppy. In your second post, you stated you wanted to see the parents of the puppy. Doesn't that fall into the category of the "right" breeder?

If I want a puppy to do schutzhund and this is my first time ever, I don't want to just go to any breeder. I want to find the "right" breeder who will help me accomplish my goals by getting me the "right" puppy. That starts with me making a list of traits that I want, watching the dogs the breeder produces, learning pedigrees, etc. I can't just go to any breeder and pick a puppy. 

What came first? The chicken or the egg?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It's all relative. People like you aren't coming on here and asking for advice on how to choose a puppy and a breeder. You not only know the bloodlines, you know what to look for and find what you want.

90% of the posters who come on here are first time GSD's owners (or first time getting a GSD from a "reputable breeder"). Trying to tell me we should be telling them to go over to pedigree database, find the bloodlines they like, find a breeder who is breeding the bloodlines they like, and picking their favorite puppy? Hmmm, yeah, not sure sure that would work out so well. That's like giving someone a set of directions in a foreign language and telling them to carry them out flawlessly.

Good breeders exist to produce good dogs, and pair those good dogs up to the people they belong with. I'm sure most breedres would not have a problem having you come in, evaluate a litter, and leave with the most dominate, outgoing, drivey little guy in the bunch. I hardly think a breeder should be allowing a first time dog owner to leave with that same dog.

And I still imagine a guy like you is going to a breeder you trust that they know what they are doing and are producing good dogs. While your observations count, don't you also discuss each of the puppies and how they have been over the last 8 weeks of development with the breeder that is looking at them every day?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If I live several states away, I let the breeder pick because after all they've spent 8 weeks with the dog and I've spent 0. But I tell them what I want, so to me that's really no different than me picking. In the end, I have the right to refuse whatever the breeder has picked based on what I want. If I show up and don't like the dog, I'm not taking it home - common sense. Chances are I'll like it because I've already done the grunt work finding the pedigree and the sire/dam I'm interested in.

I look at the dog first, but I also won't pay $15000 or so to a breeder I simply can't stand, so in that regard yes the breeder does matter to me. But if it's the best breeder in the world (by my standards) and they don't have dogs I'm interested in, I won't buy from them.

In the context of this board I think people err on the side of caution. Many people don't even know *how* to pick a dog themselves.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Speaking from experience - the breeder MUST be a part of equation. Some are nightmares!!! If you do not have a rapport with the breeder and can trust them, move on to someone else.....there are alot of nice pups out there, but many unscrupulous and uncaring breeders. Most people need or want a relationship with the breeder of their puppy. Personally, some of my best friends are people who have my pups! And on this board, most of the people looking for pups are not high level experienced competitors and they need to have a good relationship with their breeder. Someone I have spent alot of time talking to over the years out in California bought a pup from a breeder in the Midwest a few years ago....and the breeder pretty well known in the sport just has blown her off since getting her money and sending the puppy....the pup has had serious serious temperament issues - possibly Rage Syndrome, and the breeder is totally unresponsive....so getting a pup from a breeder with whom you can have a relationship is important. 

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I can't imagine buying a dog from someone you don't trust. My first breeder didn't have a web site but often in reading these posts think probably people would have advised me not to get a dog there-yet he turned out to be a great first dog. And years later when I had problems in schutzhund he offerred to have me come train there and was encouraging regarding both of my dogs-neither dogs were bred by him. I think its about trusting your feelings when you meet someone.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

What about the moral component?

I once found the right pedigree, the right temperment, testing and look. Met the parents and realized the breeder was operating out of a residential house with about a dozen adult dogs, all in airline kennels. Wow. Amazingly the dogs I met were healthy and sound, and correct. I would have expected sound offspring, but I didn't want any part of that style operation. 

When you open your wallet you cast a vote for the behavior that you are paying for.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

You want the right breeder. When we got our puppy, we were so emotional because we lost a very beloved dog a month earlier. I was in no mood to ask about parents, blood-lines, etc. I wanted to go to someone I could trust and not have to think about those details. I got a referral from two local police officers that got their personal dogs from our breeder. This breeder posts all dogs on line, puppies and adults. He also raises his puppies as if they were going to do police work, exposes them to loud noises, lots of socialization, etc. He offers free training classes when you purchase a puppy and gives continuous support if you need it. He can also import special dogs for you.

We are still training with him and on weekends I get to see a group of 10 or more dogs as adults that came from his facility. They are large, strong and beautiful. People see our dog and know she came from this person. 

I let my teenage daughter pick our pup, she did not go for looks, she went with the one that was most interested in her, the one she felt bonded with her, so I would say I pup picked us.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Zahnburg said:


> I see a lot of posts about people looking for puppies, and most of the replies involve "finding the right breeder". Is it just me or is this completely wrong? Really, you should be looking for the "right puppy", not the right breeder. After all, it is that puppy that you will be working, not the breeder.



People who are actively involved with Sch, dog sports, conformation etc. aren't normally the ones to come on to the forum and ask about where to buy a puppy. They already know the bloodlines, who's producing what and where to look for the right dog. 

You may have this knowledge now, but did you have it when you got your first dog?

If someone has no idea what makes one pup better than another one, you can't tell them to look for the _right pup_ because they don't know what that is. There are hundreds of threads on this forum from people who thought they had gotten the "right" puppy, and now spend countless hours and money trying to fix all the dogs problems. 

It's smarter to tell someone to find the right or a reputable breeder than it is to tell them to find the right puppy. The problem is, the "right breeder" for one person isn't always the right one for someone else and "reputable" is subjective.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think that, the less experience you have, the more important the "right" breeder is because you really have to lean on their knowledge and expertise. For someone getting their first pup, their first GSD pup, or their first "quality" GSD pup, picking the right breeder is essential. For someone who really knows dogs, knows bloodlines, and has experience, the 'right' breeder is not as important.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks guys for taking the time to reply, and I think you are all 100% correct. I really think Emoore sums it up nicely. 

Maybe there has already been one at some point and I missed it, but I think a good discussion about testing and selecting puppies would benefit a lot of people.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I think that, the less experience you have, the more important the "right" breeder is because you really have to lean on their knowledge and expertise. For someone getting their first pup, their first GSD pup, or their first "quality" GSD pup, picking the right breeder is essential. For someone who really knows dogs, knows bloodlines, and has experience, the 'right' breeder is not as important.


Agreed.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> But Art, don't you think experience with the breed plays into that as well. Look at the experience you have vs. the experience I have. I will let my next puppy be picked by the breeder, an experienced breeder, because the breeder is going to have a better read on the puppy than I will and have an idea of what the puppy will grow in to based on their evaluation.
> 
> With your experience, you could go watch a litter and evaluate the parents to easily pick out a puppy that is appropriate to what you want to do. For a novice, they might end up with a puppy that is way more than they can handle.


Very true.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dr. Teeth said:


> When you open your wallet you cast a vote for the behavior that you are paying for.


Exactly. That said, I think what I look for in a breeder is more relaxed than some (I don't have a cow if a breeder imports a dog and ends up selling it, or re-homes a retired breeding or competition dog, and a few other things that some people consider "unethical"), but the GSD is such a popular breed I don't feel like I have to fork over big bucks to someone I can't stand just to get the type of dog I want. If it came down to that, heck I'd just breed my next dog myself.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Zahnburg said:


> Maybe there has already been one at some point and I missed it, but I think a good discussion about testing and selecting puppies would benefit a lot of people.


I think there has been one at one point, but feel free to start another.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> Maybe there has already been one at some point and I missed it, but I think a good discussion about testing and selecting puppies would benefit a lot of people.


Please start another one! It would be a most beneficial subject!


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## koda00 (Apr 27, 2009)

sddeadeye said:


> I think the breeder is very important. I want a breeder that has a breeding program that puts out the type of dog I need. I also want lifetime support from the breeder-in that they are always willing to answer any questions I may have during the life of the pup. Most likely due to my location, I will be flying my pup to me. It is very important that I build a good rapport with a breeder and let them know my exact needs so THEY can pick the best pup for my family. There is no way I would feel comfortable visiting the pups once and being able to correctly identify which pup would best suit me when the breeder has been with them for 8 weeks and knows their strengths and weaknesses much better than I could pinpoint in a timeframe of a couple hours.
> 
> Another reason I want to find the right breeder is due to health reasons. I lost my last GSD at a very young age due to a severe health issue. This time around I want to make sure I find a breeder that does health screenings on their dogs and so far hasn't had any major health issues in the puppies he/she produces.


 
:thumbup: i to completely agree w/this! my breeder picked out both my pups for me


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are many different ways to train a dog and they all work or else they would be obsolete. There are many different ways to pick a good dog and they all work if things fall in place and some degree of luck. In the older days most GS fell into a range of 1-3 and people who wanted this type dog sought the GS. Expectations were based on 1-3 and a higher percent of dogs turned out that way so people were generally happy with their dogs. Today, GS range from 1-13, and there are 5 different subsets, and people don't really know good GS traits because some reputable breeders are breeing dogs in the 4-13 range that little reflect the breed. So it is very difficult to tell a person the best way to acquire a good dog. Just my take!
All you have to do is go to the puppy threads and read about all these people who are acquiring these puppies from breeders with issues of insecurity, unmerited aggression, inability to cope with new things, etc. and many of these dogs come from reputable breeders, good parents, and forever warranties. 
The bottom line is I think you have to trust a very very knowledgable breeder, with dogs that represent what the breed should be. 
A final note, imo, beware of ANY breeder who makes excuses why their dogs do not exemplify the breed in all aspects.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

We picked the breeder and the puppy.

The breeder because we wanted a 'guide dog' type temperament and this breeder had a reputation for calm, easy going German Shepherds. 
In other words, not a high drive shepherd, police or military style this time.

And we picked the puppy, Miss Molly, mostly because she made perfect eye contact with both of us and still does.
As far as the easy going part, she is a very wonderful, calm dog. Perfect for us old farts who prefer calm at this stage of our lives.

I would say selecting the right breeder for what you want is essential.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

We picked the breeder, then the puppy picked us.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> I see a lot of posts about people looking for puppies, and most of the replies involve "finding the right breeder". Is it just me or is this completely wrong? Really, you should be looking for the "right puppy", not the right breeder. *After all, it is that puppy that you will be working, not the breeder*.


Ah........but the 'right' breeder is the one who I find who has the same goals for their dogs/puppies that I am looking for! A breeder who asks me tons of questions so then based on their experience with their dogs may (or may not  ) be able to help with with the litters and type of dog they are breeding! 

It's funny but, for me, I no longer thing of the $$$$$$$ I pay for a puppy as paying for a puppy :wild: . That's because no matter HOW perfect a breeder you may find, there will always be a bit of a genetic crapshoot in the mix if you are getting a puppy. So I think of the money going to support the breeder I have selected and to SUPPORT THEIR BREEDING PROGRAM!

That's why I prefer breeder sites that explain on their home page their background, experience and goals for their breeding program. Cause if they aren't goals I support or their dogs aren't the type I'm looking for, then my money is staying in my hands and I'll continue the search. Specially since I prefer the smaller kennels/breeders that, by the time they pay all their training bills, trialing bills, stud fees, vet bills, etc. they barely make money (or lose money on smaller litters) in the end.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

You definitely want to pick a breeder that produces what you are looking for. Really, I perfer that breeders pick the pups for pet buyers. The average pet buyer knows what they want, but don't know how to evaluate the pups. Why not let the breeder pick for you? The breeder not only knows how to evaluate the puppies and see which one suits you, but the breeder knows the pups. The breeder knows the puppy that's going to headstrong and maybe aggressive and the shy pup. 

I am wary of breeders who let you pick the pups, especially if they don't help or give some guidance. It makes me think that they don't care about how the pup fits the person.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it has to be the right owner.



Zahnburg said:


> I see a lot of posts about people looking for puppies, and most of the replies involve "finding the right breeder". Is it just me or is this completely wrong? Really, you should be looking for the "right puppy", not the right breeder. After all, it is that puppy that you will be working, not the breeder.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

If I could not personally see puppies myself....I would rely on an experienced breeder to assist in choosing the right puppy for me....it is in the best interest of the breeder, buyer & puppy to do so.


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