# Progess with Victor(People Aggressive)



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I am so proud of Victor tonight. I had company coming over so I knew I had to try some of the ideas suggested to me from my previous thread. I put on his muzzle and used his prong collar( I have not gotten to order the Leerburg yet)and was able to control him. I did have to choke him down though but it worked. He absolutely hated having the muzzle on. We came in and I had everyone settle down did introductions again and success. I took his muzzle off after he calmed down. I let him know that if he gave any problems it was going back on. I believe instead of me putting him in the outside kennel he was able to see our guests and interact with them only after he calmed down. He does not do well when he is kenneled outside. I got him a 48" crate today so if he gets aggressive he can be crated in our bedroom. I am also going to start crating him when I have to go anywhere. He was playing ball with them and just loving all the attention he was getting. It was so nice to see him being loving with others. He really showed everyone why we love him so much. I was so proud of him. I know we are always going to have to be cautious with him and reintroduce everytime but this is such progress with him. I just has to find a way to control him. The muzzle and choke down method worked. I am very thankful for all the suggestions with him. It really saved us.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Thats great news! I am glad Victor is doing much better!


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

Excellent job. Victor is lucky to have you for his humans. Hopefully, he'll continue to settle down.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Great news! I hope Victor continues on his road to success.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you all. I know we may never stop his aggression but at least I found a way to control it. I was also told by a friend it takes about 4 months before a dog's body will adjust to a neuter. I wonder if this is true. He has actually been worse with his aggression since the neuter so I wonder if it just has not been enough time? He was neutered in the beginning of Oct. He will also be turning 2 in Feb. I hope all this will help too for toning him down. Any which way he will continue to be a lot of hard work but I don't care he is an awesome dog he just never lets anyone see that but my husband and I. Thanks everyone!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what is the "choke down" method you are using?


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

That is great news and what is even more important is that he had a positive experience from it, soon he will or may think everyone wants to play ball with me! Good rehab your doing.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats great news! i'm glad you've figured out a method that works. keep up the good work and way to go Victor!


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> what is the "choke down" method you are using?


 
I was suggested this method on my other thread by KZoppa. It may seem harsh but he has to be calmed when guests first arrive or he will lunge for people in a frenzy mode. I can't just pop his leash. He is absolutely in a frenzy mode when people enter. I had to tighten his prong collar and kinda take him close to the ground as guests were entering our yard. Once they got inside I brought him up and held him collar tight until he was calm. His issues are when people enter his area he goes into attack mode and I have never been able to control him before. This time with me doing this--success.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I was suggested this method on my other thread by KZoppa. It may seem harsh but he has to be calmed when guests first arrive or he will lunge for people in a frenzy mode. I can't just pop his leash. He is absolutely in a frenzy mode when people enter. I had to tighten his prong collar and kinda take him close to the ground as guests were entering our yard. Once they got inside I brought him up and held him collar tight until he was calm. His issues are when people enter his area he goes into attack mode and I have never been able to control him before. This time with me doing this--success.


 
I guess if it works then good for you but in my experience, tension usually creates tension..but as I have said if it worked for you that's great.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Leslie I'm glad it worked. Had i known about leerburg when i had a reactive/aggressive dog myself, i totally would have gotten that collar i told you about. The method works. It may seem harsh but it provides enough of a distraction to redirect the dog. I'm glad i remembered it.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> I guess if it works then good for you but in my experience, tension usually creates tension..but as I have said if it worked for you that's great.


 
when i learned about it, it was a last resort option. Its not usually a method suggested unless other efforts at training havent worked. Its one of those suggestions that work for dogs who like Victor enter in that frenzy mode and cant be broken from it. Most dogs will get the message after a little while that if they behave better, it wont be needed.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> when i learned about it, it was a last resort option. Its not usually a method suggested unless other efforts at training havent worked. Its one of those suggestions that work for dogs who like Victor enter in that frenzy mode and cant be broken from it. Most dogs will get the message after a little while that if they behave better, it wont be needed.


It absolutely was our last resort--so true I had tried everything else. I don't think I am going to have to use it for long because he responded immediately to this. He calmed faster once we got in the house and did introductions. I have tried everything to stop his frenzy mode and this has been the only thing that has worked.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Leslie I'm glad it worked.* Had i known about leerburg when i had a reactive/aggressive dog myself, i totally would have gotten that collar i told you about. *The method works. It may seem harsh but it provides enough of a distraction to redirect the dog. I'm glad i remembered it.


I tried to do the measurements for the collar but I got a really small measurement for him so I don't think I did it right. I am waiting for my husband to get back from a job to let him look at the video before I order one. I can't seem to get the measurement stuff right. He wears like a 20" collar and I got a measurement of like 10" and I believe the Belgian Mal. in the video had a 13" and I know Victor is way bigger than the Belgian Mal. so it just did not seem right.  I don't know.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good job,,I'm all for whatever works, and since this worked, I'd keep doing what your doing)


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> It absolutely was our last resort--so true I had tried everything else. *I don't think I am going to have to use it for long because he responded immediately to this*. He calmed faster once we got in the house and did introductions. I have tried everything to stop his frenzy mode and this has been the only thing that has worked.


 
thats great! immediate response is wonderful. generally after a few times, they're supposed to realize they shouldnt act that way and start responding better to situations. Always a work in progress of course but as long as it works, he should start responding at least a little better.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I tried to do the measurements for the collar but I got a really small measurement for him so I don't think I did it right. I am waiting for my husband to get back from a job to let him look at the video before I order one. I can't seem to get the measurement stuff right. He wears like a 20" collar and I got a measurement of like 10" and I believe the Belgian Mal. in the video had a 13" and I know Victor is way bigger than the Belgian Mal. so it just did not seem right.  I don't know.


 
yeah that does sound off. hope you get it figured out!


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I left Victor crated this time instead of leaving him in the outside kennel and he did absolutely wonderful.The outside kennel just seems to agitate him. He seems cool with being crated in the house instead of being in an outside kennel when I am gone. On the other hand I think I am going to have to start putting Jamie in the outside kennel because she seems to not do so well crated. This kennel is completely secure and safe and also inside another fenced in area so she will be ok. She seems to be good with being outside as to Victor doesn't. Jamie and Victor are completely two different personalities that is for sure.


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## London's Mom (Aug 19, 2009)

Great news! London had a spell of "fear aggression" at that age and I had to continually work with him. I spent tons of time socializing him: taking him to the dog-friendly mall, continuing the obedience classes, leaving him at a very nice kennel while on vacation, enrolling him in day care. All of these methods have helped him overcome his fear and insecurities. I still do much of these techniques, because I feel that he would slip back if he did not continually socialize. Plus, we both enjoy it!


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I was suggested this method on my other thread by KZoppa. It may seem harsh but he has to be calmed when guests first arrive or he will lunge for people in a frenzy mode. I can't just pop his leash. He is absolutely in a frenzy mode when people enter. I had to tighten his prong collar and kinda take him close to the ground as guests were entering our yard. Once they got inside I brought him up and held him collar tight until he was calm. His issues are when people enter his area he goes into attack mode and I have never been able to control him before. This time with me doing this--success.


I'm not sure if what Im about to say will help you or not or if you've already done it but *sometimes* Helios (8MO) will go into a frenzy mode too when he sees someone entering our garage and what you're doing with victor has worked with helios too. I Can't just pop his leash neither so what I usually do is make him sit and if he's so focus on whoever is entering our house that he won't listen to the command i'll "choke him" in order to make him sit ( im using a Fur saver and I've read that they aren't used for corrections but yet it works for me). I've noticed that this method works but what have really worked for me is tiring him out (sp?) _before_ someone is coming to the house. I don't wait to see if he will go into a frenzy mode with whoever is coming instead If I know that they're already outside I go out and take helios with me to play fetch while my mom goes inside with the visitors. When I notice that he's kinda "tired" (normally takes like 10-15 minutes of fetch) I go back to my house and Ill slowly walk him in and If I notice that he's about to react I stop and make him focus on me and then I keep walking by the time we get to the room with the visitors he's fine I make him go down and that's it.

This morning my mother's friend came today and I didn't really remember she was coming by the time she arrived i was waking up :laugh: I leashed helios and went to the living room he started lunging when he saw My mother's friend but he wasn't really into that "Frenzy mode" he'd listen to the commands but yet He was deeply staring at my mother's friend so I decided to go out, I played fetch with him for about 15minutes by the time i came back to the house he could careless about my mother's friend he didn't even lunge/bark or did anything he's not suppose to

Though He's always leashed when someone is in our house I don't trust him yet since he's not used to having people around our house. It's not the same aggression as Victor but I thot that It may help.

Good Luck!


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Helios said:


> I'm not sure if what Im about to say will help you or not or if you've already done it but *sometimes* Helios (8MO) will go into a frenzy mode too when he sees someone entering our garage and what you're doing with victor has worked with helios too. I Can't just pop his leash neither so what I usually do is make him sit and if he's so focus on whoever is entering our house that he won't listen to the command i'll "choke him" in order to make him sit ( im using a Fur saver and I've read that they aren't used for corrections but yet it works for me). I've noticed that this method works but what have really worked for me is tiring him out (sp?) _before_ someone is coming to the house. I don't wait to see if he will go into a frenzy mode with whoever is coming instead If I know that they're already outside I go out and take helios with me to play fetch while my mom goes inside with the visitors. When I notice that he's kinda "tired" (normally takes like 10-15 minutes of fetch) I go back to my house and Ill slowly walk him in and If I notice that he's about to react I stop and make him focus on me and then I keep walking by the time we get to the room with the visitors he's fine I make him go down and that's it.
> 
> This morning my mother's friend came today and I didn't really remember she was coming by the time she arrived i was waking up :laugh: I leashed helios and went to the living room he started lunging when he saw My mother's friend but he wasn't really into that "Frenzy mode" he'd listen to the commands but yet He was deeply staring at my mother's friend so I decided to go out, I played fetch with him for about 15minutes by the time i came back to the house he could careless about my mother's friend he didn't even lunge/bark or did anything he's not suppose to
> 
> ...


Thank you I appreciate any help I can get. The choke method really saved us. This allows the guests to get in the yard. I do play ball with him but I use this to get him to accept the people once they are in the yard. I get the guests to throw his ball and after that he is fine with them. I was making the mistake of not letting him see who was coming into the yard and putting him in an outside kennel for their safety. This just agitated him more. He needs to be involved with activities and know who entered the yard. We always have to keep an eye out with him and if need be I have the muzzle.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Thank you I appreciate any help I can get. The choke method really saved us. This allows the guests to get in the yard. I do play ball with him but I use this to get him to accept the people once they are in the yard. I get the guests to throw his ball and after that he is fine with them. I was making the mistake of not letting him see who was coming into the yard and putting him in an outside kennel for their safety. This just agitated him more. He needs to be involved with activities and know who entered the yard. We always have to keep an eye out with him and if need be I have the muzzle.


 
sounds like Zena. If they were crated when someone came over she would only get more aggitated because she wasnt able to inspect and make sure everyone was okay. She's nowhere near the aggression level Victor is but she's a good sized dog so her aggitated was never an easy thing to handle lol. Sounds like Victor is more comfortable being able to make sure his people are safe. Glad things are working out for you guys. certainly makes life easier i bet.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Very interesting thread which touches on something I've been pondering, keeping subthreshold vs desensitization. Isolating in a crate or kennel made the problem worse then confronting and dealing with (in a safe way) the triggers, in the op's case people.

I've been fortunate with my puppy she's not been getting into a 'frenzy' over people or dogs, the closest thing she freaks over is skateboards.

The advice I've been given is that of walking away when she reacts which equates with isolating (such as crating or kenneling as described in this thread) that sometimes increases the anxiety.

So what I'm reading here is desensitizing or exposure to the triggers can be effective in reducing reactions. 

For the skateboard issue, my puppy now has her own skate board and we take it for walks with us. Neighbors think I'm crazy but she's now ignoring it more and more.

Any thoughts on this, desensitizing/walking away sub threshold vs desensitizing by just facing the triggers (carefully but) head on? Varies by the dogs and their personalities?


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Very interesting thread which touches on something I've been pondering, keeping subthreshold vs desensitization. Isolating in a crate or kennel made the problem worse then confronting and dealing with (in a safe way) the triggers, in the op's case people.
> 
> I've been fortunate with my puppy she's not been getting into a 'frenzy' over people or dogs, the closest thing she freaks over is skateboards.
> 
> ...


I think it does vary by dog. It is so hard because sometimes the normal advice of isolating does not apply to that particular dog. My isolating Victor definately increased his anxiety. I believed that kenneling him outside away from people was going to be effective-in Victor's case it was not. I think if like in Victor's case if I would have continued isolating him it would have escalated his aggression. I was so concerned by his growing aggression towards people I was to the point I thought I was going to have to euthanize him. He was getting that dangerous with people. I absolutely had to have him face people(face his triggers).I believe by isolating him we were just masking his aggression not really getting down to the root of his problems.I know we may never be able to fully trust him with people but at least he is not downspiraling like before. I am still working on him everyday and it is a going to be a hard road. For us the desensitizing/walking away method absolutely did not work for him. Once again I do think it varies from dog to dog and their individual personalities. I see it as a trial and error-you have to keep trying both methods until you find the one that works for that dog. I am sure there are some dogs that respond well to isolation from their triggers. This is the way I have always known until Victor. Victor has taught me so many things but mainly that all dogs are different and what works for one will not work for the other.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Wow, euthanization would have been a horribly sad decision to have to make. I'm glad you've found something which is helping!

I think you're right and I found this to be true with horses too, you must adjust. I'm not as sure of myself with dogs/dog training and it's hard to not be able to trust your 'gut' on some of these things.

btw - to make you smile RE skateboard desensitization - All she had to do was hear the sound of the skateboards (not even see them just the sound of the wheels and hitting the curbs) at the park and she was mentally 'gone' and those skateboard guys are all over the place (where they aren't allowed!) at the park. So I figured if she sees mom riding them she'll get over it -mostly by laughing at me  cause 47 Year old me, I look real silly on a skateboard. 

Wishing you continued success with Victor. 



JustMeLeslie said:


> I think it does vary by dog. It is so hard because sometimes the normal advice of isolating does not apply to that particular dog. My isolating Victor definately increased his anxiety. I believed that kenneling him outside away from people was going to be effective-in Victor's case it was not. I think if like in Victor's case if I would have continued isolating him it would have escalated his aggression. I was so concerned by his growing aggression towards people I was to the point I thought I was going to have to euthanize him. He was getting that dangerous with people. I absolutely had to have him face people(face his triggers).I believe by isolating him we were just masking his aggression not really getting down to the root of his problems.I know we may never be able to fully trust him with people but at least he is not downspiraling like before. I am still working on him everyday and it is a going to be a hard road. For us the desensitizing/walking away method absolutely did not work for him. Once again I do think it varies from dog to dog and their individual personalities. I see it as a trial and error-you have to keep trying both methods until you find the one that works for that dog. I am sure there are some dogs that respond well to isolation from their triggers. This is the way I have always known until Victor. Victor has taught me so many things but mainly that all dogs are different and what works for one will not work for the other.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Wow, euthanization would have been a horribly sad decision to have to make. I'm glad you've found something which is helping!
> 
> I think you're right and I found this to be true with horses too, you must adjust. I'm not as sure of myself with dogs/dog training and it's hard to not be able to trust your 'gut' on some of these things.
> 
> ...


 
Glad you came up with something that works for her. I would be too scared to ride a skateboard. I am not very coordinated plus I like my feet on the ground. I will leave all the agility to Victor  That is a good idea that you can up with. I think if you would have just kept her from them she would have never been comfortable around a board.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

*Not sure what I need to do*

Ok so now I have a new problem with Victor. I can now get the guests into the yard and house via the choke/muzzle method but now after the guests have been there for a while he goes after them when they leave a room or move suddenly. I can't seem to win with him. I am so frustrated with him after all the progress. My guests have to watch their movement and have to announce themselves before re-entering an area. For example, my nephew came into the house and we did the whole introduction thing and Victor was fine with him. He was loving on my nephew and interacting with him great but when my nephew got up to go to the bathroom when he came back out and re-entered the room Victor went after him. Nephew said Victor's name and stood still like I told him to do. I immediately grabbed Victor's collar and had to do another reintroduce. He then was fine with him. Niece got there and same with thing with her he was fine up until she would move or go to the bathroom. I don't know if I should tether Victor to me for my guests safety or try to crate him. Crating him/isolating him from people has always increased his aggression but I am worried for my guests' safety at this point. I can see Victor is never going to be able to be a normal,calm dog around other people. He CAN NOT be trusted. Should I go ahead and just forget about trying to make him a part of the socialization when people are over? My guests have to watch their every movement around him it is like they are walking on eggshells around him. At this point I don't know if I should keep trying to make him a part of everything when guests are over or if I should just go ahead and keep him separated from everyone. Any suggestions? This is a safety issue. I love Victor but I also have to protect my guests too.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Ok so now I have a new problem with Victor. I can now get the guests into the yard and house via the choke/muzzle method but now after the guests have been there for a while he goes after them when they leave a room or move suddenly. I can't seem to win with him. I am so frustrated with him after all the progress. My guests have to watch their movement and have to announce themselves before re-entering an area. For example, my nephew came into the house and we did the whole introduction thing and Victor was fine with him. He was loving on my nephew and interacting with him great but when my nephew got up to go to the bathroom when he came back out and re-entered the room Victor went after him. Nephew said Victor's name and stood still like I told him to do. I immediately grabbed Victor's collar and had to do another reintroduce. He then was fine with him. Niece got there and same with thing with her he was fine up until she would move or go to the bathroom. I don't know if I should tether Victor to me for my guests safety or try to crate him. Crating him/isolating him from people has always increased his aggression but I am worried for my guests' safety at this point. I can see Victor is never going to be able to be a normal,calm dog around other people. He CAN NOT be trusted. Should I go ahead and just forget about trying to make him a part of the socialization when people are over? My guests have to watch their every movement around him it is like they are walking on eggshells around him. At this point I don't know if I should keep trying to make him a part of everything when guests are over or if I should just go ahead and keep him separated from everyone. Any suggestions? This is a safety issue. I love Victor but I also have to protect my guests too.


 
i think you should try tethering him to you. obviously he's reactive in more ways than were known. He would definitely make a good junk yard dog thats for sure. Try tethering definitely. You may very well have to reintroduce him several times before he relaxs and calms down enough to stop charging whenever someone comes back into the room. I think trying to isolate him again will only cause further problems and definitely make things worse. Is he muzzled while the guests are in the house? I dont think i caught whether he was or not. 

I know with Zena, if a male approached me or moved to simply walk past me, she would get snappy and start growling. She was trustworthy for the most part but if a guy didnt approach correctly or he approached from a side directly by me instead of with my husband between me and the male approaching, she got aggressive. We could take her out in public to parades and such but she was always on the short lead (basically a foot long lead) and men who wanted to meet her were warned to approach from my husbands side instead of mine. If they approached properly she was all friendly and tail wags. Women and kids were perfectly fine to approach no problems. It got to the point we were able to stop carrying a muzzle with us and she was allowed a regular leash but still had to stay close. I hope you guys are able to figure out how to correct Victor and teach him exactly whats not allowed. Best of luck.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Ok so now I have a new problem with Victor. I can now get the guests into the yard and house via the choke/muzzle method but now after the guests have been there for a while he goes after them when they leave a room or move suddenly. I can't seem to win with him. I am so frustrated with him after all the progress. My guests have to watch their movement and have to announce themselves before re-entering an area. For example, my nephew came into the house and we did the whole introduction thing and Victor was fine with him. He was loving on my nephew and interacting with him great but when my nephew got up to go to the bathroom when he came back out and re-entered the room Victor went after him. Nephew said Victor's name and stood still like I told him to do. I immediately grabbed Victor's collar and had to do another reintroduce. He then was fine with him. Niece got there and same with thing with her he was fine up until she would move or go to the bathroom. I don't know if I should tether Victor to me for my guests safety or try to crate him. Crating him/isolating him from people has always increased his aggression but I am worried for my guests' safety at this point. I can see Victor is never going to be able to be a normal,calm dog around other people. He CAN NOT be trusted. Should I go ahead and just forget about trying to make him a part of the socialization when people are over? My guests have to watch their every movement around him it is like they are walking on eggshells around him. At this point I don't know if I should keep trying to make him a part of everything when guests are over or if I should just go ahead and keep him separated from everyone. Any suggestions? This is a safety issue. I love Victor but I also have to protect my guests too.


I dont have any tips for you but I do feel for you. 

I hope everything works out for you and for Victor.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Ok so now I have a new problem with Victor. I can now get the guests into the yard and house via the choke/muzzle method but now after the guests have been there for a while he goes after them when they leave a room or move suddenly. I can't seem to win with him. I am so frustrated with him after all the progress. My guests have to watch their movement and have to announce themselves before re-entering an area. For example, my nephew came into the house and we did the whole introduction thing and Victor was fine with him. He was loving on my nephew and interacting with him great but when my nephew got up to go to the bathroom when he came back out and re-entered the room Victor went after him. Nephew said Victor's name and stood still like I told him to do. I immediately grabbed Victor's collar and had to do another reintroduce. He then was fine with him. Niece got there and same with thing with her he was fine up until she would move or go to the bathroom. I don't know if I should tether Victor to me for my guests safety or try to crate him. Crating him/isolating him from people has always increased his aggression but I am worried for my guests' safety at this point. I can see Victor is never going to be able to be a normal,calm dog around other people. He CAN NOT be trusted. Should I go ahead and just forget about trying to make him a part of the socialization when people are over? My guests have to watch their every movement around him it is like they are walking on eggshells around him. At this point I don't know if I should keep trying to make him a part of everything when guests are over or if I should just go ahead and keep him separated from everyone. Any suggestions? This is a safety issue. I love Victor but I also have to protect my guests too.


Has Victor been seen by a vet? Cleared of eye and thyroid issues?

Are you working with a behaviorist/trainer?

There is a lot more going on with Victor than I think you realize. Managing each issue that crops up isn't going to help Victor in the long run. I definitely don't think force and compulsion are what he needs (ie prong/choke).

A lot of times when a dog is trying to control their environment like this it is because they are scared and they lack the confidence in you to keep them safe. He seems to be very sensitive to change in environment from what you have posted. Get the book Scaredy Dog! by Ali Brown. I think after you read it, you might have some more insight into what is going on with Victor. 

Please stop using compulsion techniques on him and start making his environment as predictable and POSITIVE as possible. If you must have people over, put Victor in a room with music and a chewy so he can't hear the guests and can relax.

Victor needs to build his confidence.. do you go to training classes? If you can't/won't then do lots of obedience with him at home and praise they HECK out of him when he gets things right. Do NILIF. He needs to know that you control the environment and that nothing bad is going to happen to him if things change.

You might need to consider meds. Please get help from a qualified behaviorist who can observe what Victor is doing and help you to develop a treatment plan for him. 

I tried to help work with a dog that did a lot of the same behaviors you have been talking about including going after people when they tried to leave a room even if they were just playing with him. The dog was put down because the owner couldn't/wouldn't work with him any more. You owe it to Victor to seek REAL professional help.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i think you should try tethering him to you. obviously he's reactive in more ways than were known. He would definitely make a good junk yard dog thats for sure. Try tethering definitely. You may very well have to reintroduce him several times before he relaxs and calms down enough to stop charging whenever someone comes back into the room. I think trying to isolate him again will only cause further problems and definitely make things worse. Is he muzzled while the guests are in the house? I dont think i caught whether he was or not.
> 
> I know with Zena, if a male approached me or moved to simply walk past me, she would get snappy and start growling. She was trustworthy for the most part but if a guy didnt approach correctly or he approached from a side directly by me instead of with my husband between me and the male approaching, she got aggressive. We could take her out in public to parades and such but she was always on the short lead (basically a foot long lead) and men who wanted to meet her were warned to approach from my husbands side instead of mine. If they approached properly she was all friendly and tail wags. Women and kids were perfectly fine to approach no problems. It got to the point we were able to stop carrying a muzzle with us and she was allowed a regular leash but still had to stay close. I hope you guys are able to figure out how to correct Victor and teach him exactly whats not allowed. Best of luck.


 
He is muzzled when the guests enter and for a short time during introductions. I only have it on for short periods at a time. He will be fine with them(loving on them,playing ball with them)so the muzzle is off at that point but if anyone moves or goes out of a room he acts as if he just was not loving on them. He knows these people all very well. Basically, I can get him comfortable with them but they are not allowed to move around he wants them to stay in one spot the entire time they are there. I am going to try the tethering I already have one made up I use for Jamie. If he gets aggressive then back on with the muzzle. I have also ordered some calming medication as to hope this will help with his agitation.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Has Victor been seen by a vet? Cleared of eye and thyroid issues?
> 
> Are you working with a behaviorist/trainer?
> 
> ...


Victor's issues are not medical. He gets his aggression from his mother. She passed this down to him. He is the result of an irresponsible breeder/trainer. There is another member on this forum who has a dog from the same breeder as Victor also same bloodline that has starting showing the same aggression just not as bad as Victor. I know this is a passed down aggression issue not medical. 

Victor is extremly obedient. He gets training daily. He gets lots of praise. He is a very confident dog he just can't deal with strangers. I do practice NILIF with him and Jamie. As far as the meds thing goes that will be a last resort. I am going to try an all natural calming medication someone referred me to first before I will consider meds from a vet. As I have mentioned before I live out in the country so trainers/behaviorists are not an option for us. I understand your recommendation for a REAL professional, but that is not an option for us other than a vet. There aren't a lot/if any options(behaviorists,trainers) in this area. This is something we are gonna have to deal with on our own. 

The choke/prong collar are the only way I can control him when he is in his frenzy mode if I did not have those items he would attack them. I am not sure if I should tether him or crate him when I have guests? As mentioned before he gets even more agitated/aggressive when crated where he can't see our guests.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> He is muzzled when the guests enter and for a short time during introductions. I only have it on for short periods at a time. He will be fine with them(loving on them,playing ball with them)so the muzzle is off at that point but if anyone moves or goes out of a room he acts as if he just was not loving on them. He knows these people all very well. Basically, I can get him comfortable with them but they are not allowed to move around he wants them to stay in one spot the entire time they are there. I am going to try the tethering I already have one made up I use for Jamie. If he gets aggressive then back on with the muzzle. I have also ordered some calming medication as to hope this will help with his agitation.


 
so he knows them very well but he doesnt trust them. thats what i'm taking from that. I could totally off though but it sounds like he trusts them but if they move to leave the room or come back, they're no longer trustworthy. very curious situation. I hope the natural calming meds help! I honestly hope you guys are able to work with him so he can at least be trustworthy and allowing guests to move about. Obviously he's not a dog for public situations so thats not a new piece of information but it sounds like you HAVE made some progress with him as he's now allowing people onto the property and into the house while you're there. I can definitely say heaven help anyone who decides to break in. Even if Victor is crated while you're gone, i dont think he would be when you got home. I've got a friend who has a GSD mix with similar aggression issues. I'll ask her if she has any other ideas.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Victor's issues are not medical. He gets his aggression from his mother. She passed this down to him. He is the result of an irresponsible breeder/trainer. There is another member on this forum who has a dog from the same breeder as Victor also same bloodline that has starting showing the same aggression just not as bad as Victor. I know this is a passed down aggression issue not medical.


I forgot that was you. I think thyroid issues can be genetic though.



> Victor is extremly obedient. He gets training daily. He gets lots of praise. He is a very confident dog he just can't deal with strangers. I do practice NILIF with him and Jamie. As far as the meds thing goes that will be a last resort. I am going to try an all natural calming medication someone referred me to first before I will consider meds from a vet. As I have mentioned before I live out in the country so trainers/behaviorists are not an option for us. I understand your recommendation for a REAL professional, but that is not an option for us other than a vet. There aren't a lot/if any options(behaviorists,trainers) in this area. This is something we are gonna have to deal with on our own.


What else have you done to educate yourself besides this forum? Have you read books or watched videos on dog training? Have you looked more closely at fear issues? There is such a thing as being overly sensitive to environment changes which can be connected to fear aggression/reactivity. 



> The choke/prong collar are the only way I can control him when he is in his frenzy mode if I did not have those items he would attack them. I am not sure if I should tether him or crate him when I have guests? As mentioned before he gets even more agitated/aggressive when crated where he can't see our guests.


I understand that they are the only way you can control him when he gets like that. You should be managing him so that he DOESN'T get into frenzy mode. The Prong/Choke have been shown to ramp up aggression especially if not timed exactly right. Have you had training on when/how to properly correct with a prong?

IMO, you should not be subject Victor to guests at all. You are pushing him over threshold way too often. Personally, I would recommend against having guests until you can work this out in a safer environment. Have you tried crating him in the room where the guest are but instructing everyone to ignore him? Have you tried putting him in a crate as far away from guests with a music on so he can't hear them and a nice frozen kong or chewy to distract him?

I am not trying to attack you or make you feel like you aren't doing everything possible but I strongly feel the compulsion is NOT the way to go with Victor. Treating aggression with agression rarely works. 

Since you know that aggression is hard wired into Victor, behavior meds may be your only option to just get him to a point where you can work with him. Have you ever dealt with someone that has BiPolar disorder or some other mental disorder? There is something chemically imbalanced in Victor's brain and until (IF) you can bring that imbalance closer to normal, he is not going to be able comprehend things like a normal dog can and therefore you aren't going to get the progress that you want.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> so he knows them very well but he doesnt trust them. thats what i'm taking from that. I could totally off though but it sounds like he trusts them but if they move to leave the room or come back, they're no longer trustworthy. very curious situation. I hope the natural calming meds help! I honestly hope you guys are able to work with him so he can at least be trustworthy and allowing guests to move about. Obviously he's not a dog for public situations so thats not a new piece of information but it sounds like you HAVE made some progress with him as he's now allowing people onto the property and into the house while you're there.* I can definitely say heaven help anyone who decides to break in.* Even if Victor is crated while you're gone, i dont think he would be when you got home. *I've got a friend who has a GSD mix with similar aggression issues. I'll ask her if she has any other ideas*.


That is the one thing I don't have to worry about( someone breaking in) anymore. Victor makes me feel safe that is for sure. He sleeps in our bedroom right by the door so I know no one is gonna be able to even get into the room if they tried. 

Thank you if you get any tips from your friend I would appreciate it. At this point if the tethering/meds don't work I will probably have to crate him in our bedroom away from everyone. I think that will be best for him and guests if those methods do not work.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> That is the one thing I don't have to worry about( someone breaking in) anymore. Victor makes me feel safe that is for sure. He sleeps in our bedroom right by the door so I know no one is gonna be able to even get into the room if they tried.
> 
> Thank you if you get any tips from your friend I would appreciate it. At this point if the tethering/meds don't work I will probably have to crate him in our bedroom away from everyone. I think that will be best for him and guests if those methods do not work.


 
okay heres what she saying (on the phone now). If you have the space available, put a sturdy crate in the livingroom. When guests come over, muzzle him like you've been doing for the general meet and great and then crate him. If he's vocal and obnoxious and just generally anything besides calm and quiet in the crate, remove him to another room without you present until he's calm and then bring him back in and crate him again. If someone gets up to leave the room and comes back in, he has to be in the crate and quiet. if not, repeat the removal process. In the crate, make sure he has a favorite chew or something. She also suggested a shaker can. When he starts getting growly and vocal shake the can as a distraction and tell him quiet. When he's quiet throw in a treat every couple minutes for about a week. She also says to have the guests give him treats at the initial meeting and ask they eat carry a baggie with some treats they can give randomly during their visit. If his behavior doesnt improve aka no negative reactions when guests get up to move around or come back even crated, you should be able to pull him out and keep him tethered to you safely. If he reacts negatively, into the crate he goes until he calms down. She suggested the crating thing for a minimum of two weeks. And muzzled ALWAYS when he's free with guests. She said tethering at this point if he's still reactive to guests moving about is not a good idea because it would probably make him worse in his aggression and you could get hurt in the process if he lunges or something. She's gonna talk to her husband when he gets off work and see if she's forgetting anything but those are the basics. it took them 6 months to get their dog to the point he didnt have to be crated constantly when guests came over but he's always muzzled. He cant be trusted without the muzzle on. Hope that helps you out some. I'll be back on later if he had anything else that she missed. But she suggested medication also.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while I'm certainly not 'against' the advice from kzoppa above, re the crate, sometimes a dog in a crate can become quite 'possessive' of their space and it wouldn't surprise me if he reacted to strangers while IN the crate.. 

Have you tried leaving the muzzle on him while the guests are there and if so, what does he do when they THEN move around or leave the room? 

A friend of mine who had a male gsd, he would let you in the house, but when anyone went to leave, he was notorious for 'butt nipping' , I used to call him a 'chicken poop' biter, he'd grab your butt and take off..While may be a herding behavior, he was also doing it I believe, out of 'fear', and wanting to control situations. 

I"d try leaving the muzzle on him the entire time you have guests, can he take treats thru the muzzle? I like the idea of guests, tossing him treats randomly, 

It's hard to get people for 'guiena pigs",,but if he's muzzled, that should make them feel a tad easier.

Fear or not, and while most wouldn't condone it, I'd be on top of him (not literally), I'd have a muzzle and leash on him, and if he started acting like a jerk, he'd be getting a good correction and put in a down.

I don't recommend anyone who's leery of getting bit to do the above, and most will recommend not using a harsh correction on a fearful dog, my feeling is, I don't think treating a dog who exhibits behaviors like this with kid gloves gets the idea across that it is unacceptable behavior. Of course if the dog is more submissively fearful then no, I wouldn't use a harsh correction, because it will turn them into a marshmellow..If you've got a tough hard headed dog , sometimes they need a stronger hand to get the point across...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> while I'm certainly not 'against' the advice from kzoppa above, re the crate, sometimes a dog in a crate can become quite 'possessive' of their space and it wouldn't surprise me if he reacted to strangers while IN the crate..
> 
> Have you tried leaving the muzzle on him while the guests are there and if so, what does he do when they THEN move around or leave the room?
> 
> ...


 
good suggestions and well said Jakoda. 

As far as any other suggestions from my friend goes, her hubby didnt have anything else except see about having him evaluated by a behaviorist and see if they have any ideas that may help other than medication. I know thats not an option for you as you've stated as much but its out there.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> while I'm certainly not 'against' the advice from kzoppa above, re the crate, sometimes a dog in a crate can become quite 'possessive' of their space and it wouldn't surprise me if he reacted to strangers while IN the crate..
> 
> Have you tried leaving the muzzle on him while the guests are there and if so, what does he do when they THEN move around or leave the room?
> 
> ...


With all that is going on with Victor's aggression do you think it would be a good idea to stop having him interact with people and just crate him in a room away from people? I honestly just don't think he will ever be able to be trusted with people. I was hopeful at first but after this weekend with guests on both Sat. and Sun. I don't think he will ever be able to cope. I was trying to help him be part of the family's activities but he does not seem to able to be incorporated in those situations. The entire time I was constantly worried about what he could or was going to do to our guests. I had to watch him closely as there were many times he was going to grab them and a couple times he was lunging and trying to get at them. I am just trying to make him a part of everything like I do with Jamie but he can't be trusted with people. I had him muzzled off and on but not the whole time. The muzzle stresses him out after a while. If I am going to have to keep him muzzled the entire time someone is over I guess it will just be for the best just to crate him away everyone. What do you think crate away from everyone or keep trying to work with him on this? I am so afraid he is going to hurt someone and it will be my fault for not keeping him away from people.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> With all that is going on with Victor's aggression do you think it would be a good idea to stop having him interact with people and just crate him in a room away from people? I honestly just don't think he will ever be able to be trusted with people. I was hopeful at first but after this weekend with guests on both Sat. and Sun. I don't think he will ever be able to cope. I was trying to help him be part of the family's activities but he does not seem to able to be incorporated in those situations. The entire time I was constantly worried about what he could or was going to do to our guests. I had to watch him closely as there were many times he was going to grab them and a couple times he was lunging and trying to get at them. I am just trying to make him a part of everything like I do with Jamie but he can't be trusted with people. I had him muzzled off and on but not the whole time. The muzzle stresses him out after a while. If I am going to have to keep him muzzled the entire time someone is over I guess it will just be for the best just to crate him away everyone. What do you think crate away from everyone or keep trying to work with him on this? I am so afraid he is going to hurt someone and it will be my fault for not keeping him away from people.


 
i think you should do what you feel is right. Victor could also be feeding off your anxiety which could only be making the situation worse. You have Jamie who is obviously the social butterfly of the two. Victor may not ever be comfortable with those outside his immediate pack and if thats the case which it appears to be, you have to go with your gut. If during those times you do want to involve him, you do have methods you know work and can use. Crates are supposed to be a safe place. If he can handle being in the crate calmly with a bone or some other chew object with company over in the same room ( crate door closed of course) that is great. If you feel its better for him to be in another room crated thats great too. Do what YOU are comfy with. You love Victor. He's not a social dog and wont ever be. In the end result, go with what works for you, Victor and the safety of your guests. I know its tough. You'll get it all figured out. Again, here for ya if you need anything else.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

This is very sad. It seems this is a thread about a wolverine instead of a GSD.
This should NOT be happening with a GSD.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

this is a sad situation and i feel for the OP...........its a very frustrating situation.......i don't think anyone can realize what its like owning a dog like this unless you've had one personally......

i would crate him while people are there, i think its to overwhelming for him to be out around so many people at once...........counter conditioning takes a LONG time, very small steps............in the process of doing this you learn the dogs signals and thresholds and learn when to remove him from situations before he can react......

sometimes to much going on in a small area is to much for these types of dogs..........my dog like this does better in bigger areas, like outside.........i think you need to back way up, start this dog out like you would a puppy, baby steps.......work on Obedience and food, or toy to keep his attention in situations something he really likes..........a new person =food, play etc..........

when i go into a new situation with new people i start at a distance, walking him around doing Obedience, then if i think he's ok, i move in closer and then walk in and around the new people and just have them ignore him, then if he's ok, i keep walking in and around them and start dropping treats near their feet, and then if he's ok, i have then hold their hand out and give him a treat but still ignoring him, then i make him sit beside me and i stand and talk with them and every once in a while drop treats by their feet and have then hold a treat out for him..........long process,,,,,,,,,,,,,but Very effective.............if he did start giving me signals during any of these exercises, i would back up and start again............i am not sure the muzzel is a good tool for him, i think if he was leashed and taken through the above exercises it would be more effective.......but, if you are nervous, its not going to work.......

i honestly would suggest a private trainer to get you on the right track, with a dog like this, you need to become a confident handler, make all his decisions for him, walk him through the steps of becoming a more trustworthy dog.............true, he is what he is, and may never be trustworthy by himself, however, with your guidence, strong Obedience and counter-conditioning you can get to a better place..........i don't think you should try to go this road by yourself, getting some professional help will give you more tools and the confidence you need to work with him.........doing it yourself, is going to be extremely frustrating, and getting frustrated isn't going to help him.......

debbie


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think you should do what you think is right, and most of all comfortable for the dog..

It's a catch 22, you 'want' to socialize him, BUT, it may be stressful for HIM, you and it's a safety issue for guests,,if you don't socialize him, well, how can you work on getting him more comfortable with situations...

Have you thought about, or consulted a behaviorist? I do think it's a good idea.

Genetics can be so hardwired into a dog what may work for him in one instance, the next instant, well it could all go down the drain..

I definately like and have practiced the distance thing, as debbie describes above.

Paddycakes, your right it should not be happening with any dog, but this is by no means the only dog that exhibits this kind of behavior


I may have missed it, but how is he out in public?? Like say, if you took him for a walk on a leash around "people" not other dogs??


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also think you should do what you think is right, and most of all comfortable for the dog..
> 
> It's a catch 22, you 'want' to socialize him, BUT, it may be stressful for HIM, you and it's a safety issue for guests,,if you don't socialize him, well, how can you work on getting him more comfortable with situations...
> 
> ...


 


When he is in public he is ok as long as no one gets near me. He of course is always on the leash. If he is in the truck and someone gets near he will try to get them so I never leave the window down. He does ok sometimes at the vet but he will growl at certain people. I have to muzzle him sometimes at the vet . I take him to the opposite side of the room away from people and then he is fine. The vet has to take him outside in the hallway away from me so he can't see me to exam him or give vaccinations. Our vet knows his history and knows what to do with him to prevent any aggressive behavior. When he was neutered he was cool and went just fine with the tech, but when I am near if he thinks someone steps wrong or is coming towards me he will go for them. I can hand him off to a tech and he is fine, but I have to hand him off. I have to give the ok. Once I hand him off he is just fine with that person.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think it sounds like you need to let Victor know that your in charge not him, it appears he has taken the roll of protector because he feels he's the leader...........i really think you should bite the bullet spent the money and get professional help so you can work on being a good leader and handler............it will be money well spent and i do think with time and dedication you can be successful..........it doesn't happen over nite, it takes time, but once you start seeing some progression its well worth it.......


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'd also get him out in public more, and start teaching him a good 'leave it'...It sounds like he does 'better' in public, with much more going on doesn't have time to focus in on 'one' thing or person.

I wouldn't let anyone come up and pet him, I would have people put him on the big "ignore", 

Masi is not a fan of strangers out in public, (at home she is a big mush with anyone/stranger or not),,anyhow, I take her alot to the outside malls, crowds etc, and just "walk". She's never bitten or lunged at anyone, but prefers strangers don't pet her, it just is what it is.. Anyhow, if I'm out and someone is approaching, I just say "leave it" and keep walking.. It seems to take the DECISION of possibly doing something out of her hands I think anyhow

While that won't help you at home, it does get him out in public around people, and used to them being in his space..

I do agree with debbie, having someone come in and evaluate will also help


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree with Diane in that you can at least get him out in public, if you feel you can handle possible situations that might occur being out...........although, if you feel you are not capable of handling those situations again i think some professional guidence would be very helpful...............

my male is like Dianes Masi in that he does Not like strangers petting him or in his space...............even people he knows well cannot cross the line and get to touchy feely with him, but he has begun to trust some of our close friends and he will play with them and let them scratch under his head and front in small doses.........i just try not to put him in situations where i know he will react because we are working on things in slow steps.................


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

This is definitely a scary situation. My friend was mauled by a GSD who showed these attributes and it has scarred her for life (as you can probably imagine). I am reading your descriptions and they are all the same. The dog would be muzzled when people came over and then would be fine after about 15 minutes. When my friend went outside to get something from her car and then when she came back in, the GSD attacked. It was the most frightening thing i have ever witnessed. A full grown GSD male is hard to stop and not to mention scary. With two adult males pulling him off of her, he even turned on us. Luckily we secured his head and body, got the muzzle on and only got scraped by his paws. Please, please do the right thing and seek professional help with the dog. You definitely don't want the liability. I wish you the best.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I want to thank you all for all your help and until we decide the next course of action Victor will be crated away from guests. I thank you all for your time and help.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Leslie, i just wanted to let you know that you guys are in our thoughts and prayers here for a solution that works for you all around. I know you love Victor and i dont blame you for feeling safer with him around but i also dont blame you for feeling stressed over his behavior. Thats a lot to handle. So sending good thoughts, prayers and strength. And just remember to take a step back and take a nice deep breath before stepping back in.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I want to thank you all for all your help and until we decide the next course of action Victor will be crated away from guests. I thank you all for your time and help.


I wish I could be of more help, I'm just catching up on this thread...all I can add is you sound like a very caring and dutiful dog owner and I send you best wishes that you'll find a solution which is comfortable for you and Victor.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Leslie, i just wanted to let you know that you guys are in our thoughts and prayers here for a solution that works for you all around. I know you love Victor and i dont blame you for feeling safer with him around but i also dont blame you for feeling stressed over his behavior. Thats a lot to handle. So sending good thoughts, prayers and strength. And just remember to take a step back and take a nice deep breath before stepping back in.


Amen
So sorry that you have to go through this and best of luck in working it out.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Just wanted to update on Victor. He is not getting any better with his aggression. He now on top of everything is starting to single out my mastiff mix(Lola). We recently lost Lola's companion dog due old age(Kacee,12yrs-RIP) and now she is alone. I am trying to incorporate her into our activities and into the house, but Victor won't leave her alone. He blocks her from moving and stares her down all the time. She is frightened of him. Lola has never been aggressive a day in her life btw. We have had her since she was 4mths. old. He bit her in her face yesterday and she did not know what to do so she just kinda stayed by me. 

I have found out recently that Victor came from Czech lines/American/German showlines which apparently is a bad combo.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/149082-pohranicni-straze-cs.html
He is the result of bad breeding. His aggression is definately in his bloodline. At this point we just don't know what to do anymore. We love him but are just so upset over his increasing aggression. 

We have tried to medicate him(calming pills) which did not work. He still was lunging and barking at guests. He was crated after several attempts to medicate was in ineffective. I have been managing him by just crating him because I know he is never gonna be able to tolerate guests. The new aggression towards my mastiff is what is concerning me now. He also has taught Jamie some bad habits too. She is starting to snatch things/toys away from Lola and Samson(minpin)Victor taught her that. 

At this point I just don't know what to do? I am getting to my wit's end with him. We love him but I don't know where to go from here for the sake of our home and our other animals. I make myself sick with worry for him and our other animals. I just want all of the animals to get along and no one have to be separated from another, but Victor is making this difficult. 

Thanks for listening.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

So sorry things aren't going better. Is he on prescription behavioral drugs? (just wasn't sure if it OTC stuff or not from the way it was worded) If it's not prescription then that's the only thing I can think to try. It seems like you've tried a lots of things so far.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Just wanted to update on Victor. He is not getting any better with his aggression. He now on top of everything is starting to single out my mastiff mix(Lola). We recently lost Lola's companion dog due old age(Kacee,12yrs-RIP) and now she is alone. I am trying to incorporate her into our activities and into the house, but Victor won't leave her alone. He blocks her from moving and stares her down all the time. She is frightened of him. Lola has never been aggressive a day in her life btw. We have had her since she was 4mths. old. He bit her in her face yesterday and she did not know what to do so she just kinda stayed by me.
> 
> I have found out recently that Victor came from Czech lines/American/German showlines which apparently is a bad combo.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/149082-pohranicni-straze-cs.html
> ...


I am so sorry to hear this Leslie, I was hoping that things were getting better for you.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> So sorry things aren't going better. Is he on prescription behavioral drugs? (just wasn't sure if it OTC stuff or not from the way it was worded) If it's not prescription then that's the only thing I can think to try. It seems like you've tried a lots of things so far.


I used an all natural calming aid that was suggested to me. The lady who suggested it works heavily with rescues and knew of this to work for stressed/aggressive animals. The vet is my next course of action. I will be making an appointment soon to discuss whether or not my vet thinks that prescription meds should be the next step for Victor. This vet knows his history and knows how to deal with him.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

First of all I apologize if you mentioned this earlier and I didn't see it when I went back thru.....

What I DID see was all of us trying to recommend, the best we could, from the info you gave, assistance. Which resulted in a complete mish mash of suggestions that may or may not work and by picking and choosing and just trying to do them from what we post may have just confused your dog even more....

So while we all mean well and give the best advice we can.... for real and serious issues like it seems you have.........you need REAL AND SERIOUS HELP. 

so............

WHERE ARE YOU GOING AND WHO'S THE BEHAVIORIST YOU ARE USING? Because there is nothing like 'real' help from someone who is right there to watch you, your family, your dog, your situation, strengths/weaknesses and is able to act immediately with suggestions to tweak and continue to improve you dogs behavior.

Dealing with dog aggressions can be extremely difficult for any and all of us. I know if it was a situation I couldn't deal with I'd immediately start taking my dog to anyone/anywhere that I could. And if a month with one person wasn't working then I'd try someone else.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know Texas is a huge state but here were some trainers/behaviorists I just found:

http://www.prlog.org/10811829-low-cost-leash-aggression-reactivity-dog-training-clinics-every-monday-in-austin-texas.html

http://www.trainingbytara.com/

And while I have no direct information on those people, I do know the people who work at http://www.raspberryridgesheepfarm.com/index.aspx and you may be able to contact them to see if they know anyone in Texas.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> First of all I apologize if you mentioned this earlier and I didn't see it when I went back thru.....
> 
> What I DID see was all of us trying to recommend, the best we could, from the info you gave, assistance. Which resulted in a complete mish mash of suggestions that may or may not work and by picking and choosing and just trying to do them from what we post may have just confused your dog even more....
> 
> ...


 
I truly live out in the country where you have to drive 20 mins or better just to get to a town. The only options I have are vets. This is the only professional help I can find near me.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know Texas is a huge state but here were some trainers/behaviorists I just found:
> 
> http://www.prlog.org/10811829-low-cost-leash-aggression-reactivity-dog-training-clinics-every-monday-in-austin-texas.html
> 
> ...


Thank you I will look at them.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

I haven't been able to read everything on this post but I have recently gotten a book from the library called Click to Calm it is about calming the aggressive dog it may be worth a good read if you have not already reviewed it. Glad Victor is getting better.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Unfortunately Leslie is right - Texas is one of those places where if you live in the sticks, you REALLY live in the sticks. It can be 20 minutes to a "town" with a grocery store and a church, and over an hour to the nearest city. We had to drive 1.5 hours one way for dog training when we lived in TX. And it turns out that they weren't even that good of trainers. I can see how training options are limited.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that he's getting worse. I hope the vet is able to help you out with medication that will actually help tone down the aggression at least. I hope you guys are able to figure it all out. Never easy to deal with a challenging animal. You guys are still in our thoughts and prayers.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Leslie,
Something else you may consider is seeing if a behaviorist is willing to work with you by watching videos of the behaviors and offering suggestions (assuming you have a digital camera or some way of recording).
Prescription medications definitely may be more effective than all-natural remedies. They may have to try a few before they find the best one. 
And, give yourself credit for sticking with this dog and trying every method. I had many moments like this with my rescue dog (and she wasn't even aggressive to this level) and sometimes you just need to hear that you are doing a good job and that your home is better than 99% of other homes would be for Victor.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you all for your help and thoughts. It truly helps me deal with Victor on a daily basis. 

Has anyone ever had to use prescription meds. to help with aggression? I tried to find some info on behavior meds. but could not find much. I also read there are side effects and that scares me. I don't want his aggression to get worse that is for sure.:crazy:


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Regen is on clomipramine for SA and also has been prescribed xanax & valium for SA and reactivity. She has never had 'true' aggression issues, though, she is reactive and so she can appear aggressive toward other dogs and small children. 

Even though the vet didn't tell us to do this, we tapered up to the recommended dose on all of the meds instead of just giving her the Rx dose right away. No issues with side effects except a bit of initial drowsiness and nausea with the clomipramine.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Runswithdogs said:


> Regen is on clomipramine for SA and also has been prescribed xanax & valium for SA and reactivity. She has never had 'true' aggression issues, though, she is reactive and so she can appear aggressive toward other dogs and small children.
> 
> Even though the vet didn't tell us to do this, we tapered up to the recommended dose on all of the meds instead of just giving her the Rx dose right away. No issues with side effects except a bit of initial drowsiness and nausea with the clomipramine.


 
Does she have to be on these meds for the rest of her life? Like everyday? Do they make her manageable? Sorry to be asking so many questions I am just trying to learn all I can about medicating. I have never had any dog with "mental issues" like Victor.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

are you on the other board? There was a topic going on there about the 'thunder shirt'..to use on dogs that are not only sound phobic, but aggressive..Val had also posted about some tabs she uses on one of her dogs..If I can find the thread I'll post it, maybe you could try the stress tabs??

Sorry to hear Victor isn't progressing(

here it is http://www.germanshepherdhome.net/f.../Search/true/Re_Thunder_Shirt.html#Post119775


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> *are you on the other board?* There was a topic going on there about the 'thunder shirt'..to use on dogs that are not only sound phobic, but aggressive..Val had also posted about some tabs she uses on one of her dogs..If I can find the thread I'll post it, maybe you could try the stress tabs??
> 
> Sorry to hear Victor isn't progressing(
> 
> here it is Thunder Shirt - GermanShepherdHome.net


This is the only forum that I am a part of. 

I will read the entire thread on the thundershirt and the pills and do some research on it as well. I wonder if I give the thundershirt a try will I have to medicate too? Thank you this gives me another option for helping him.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I guess that Victor will wear an XL thundershirt. I am ordering one from Amazon. I am going to try anything I can to help him. Thank you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Join that board, and let them know how it works, I know others are really interested especially debbieb, who is contemplating using it as well


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Join that board, and let them know how it works, I know others are really interested especially debbieb, who is contemplating using it as well


I will do that. Thank you


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think a combo of things the T-shirt and flower essences and behavior training can work wonders..............i have heard really good things about the thunder shirt, in fact i am ordering one for my problem child...........i am trying not to put Sam on prescription drugs unless absolutely necessary, there are many alternatives, and also if not already mentioned Melatonin is another one thats had good reviews for toning things down.................
don't give up, its just a matter of finding the right tools and help.........keep us posted


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i think a combo of things the T-shirt and flower essences and behavior training can work wonders..............i have heard really good things about the thunder shirt, in fact i am ordering one for my problem child...........i am trying not to put Sam on prescription drugs unless absolutely necessary, there are many alternatives, and also if not already mentioned Melatonin is another one thats had good reviews for toning things down.................
> don't give up, its just a matter of finding the right tools and help.........keep us posted


Thank you, I feel the same I do not want to have to resort to prescription meds either. The calming pills I gave him before did not have melatonin they had valerian root in them and they only slightly took the edge off. He salivated a lot with them. Are you going to try a combo of melatonin and thundershirt? or seperately? Do you have any specific brand or type of melatonin?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

You guys should look into the DAP plug in and the calming cap!!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the plug is worth looking into as well, its a matter of what someone thinks will work the best based on the issues at hand.......

i am going to do the Thunder shirt and Bach Flower remedy first.........i have used Bach Flower spray before for one of my dogs that was not crazy about going to the optimologist and having his eyes fiddles with, it did take the edge off....so, i am thinking the t-shirt and the Bach combo with the training i'm doing should help to keep his attention on me and off non-threatening things.......


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

First I want to say I am so sorry you have to go through this, it just ticks me off that people breed these dogs!

Second have you read the last post about Tanner http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/148995-update-tanner-long.html 
maybe some of the things they have been doing for Tanner you could try and see if it helps? I wish you the best of luck.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

unfortunately these dogs are coming from some reputable breeders...............maybe these nervous fearful dogs are just genetic duds, maybe the problem has creeped up from several generations before, who knows, but its not just a BYB problem..........very sad............


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

vat said:


> First I want to say I am so sorry you have to go through this, it just ticks me off that people breed these dogs!
> 
> Second have you read the last post about Tanner http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/148995-update-tanner-long.html
> maybe some of the things they have been doing for Tanner you could try and see if it helps? I wish you the best of luck.


Thank you, I always keep in contact with Minnieski about Tanner. Victor and Tanner are from the same parents but different litters. Tanner is not as bad as Victor thankfully. Anytime she posts about Tanner I read the post and we also PM each other. 

I do have some ideas and are currently researching them, thanks to debbiebrown. This gives me a little hope for trying to find something to help Victor. 

Yes, it makes me angry too that people just breed dogs for profit and don't think of the consequences of bad bloodlines or how much heartache it causes the new owner. I can tell you this I have learned so much about the importance of a good bloodline.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its not a very pleasant thing to get a dog with these issues......we all go out and research try to find a good breeder and lines hope to get a stable solid pup.......who knows what goes wrong, but the wiring isn't quite right.............and most of these owners have done all the right things, socializing, classes, etc, etc.........makes me mad when its blamed on inviroment, i guess thats easier than admitting there might be a flaw in the breeding line........
whatever the reason, thank god there are people like us, that pick up the pieces and commit to helping these poor guys..........
we should start our own support group for genetic duds...........  the best advice i can give is if something doesn't work keep trying to find other answers, and do seek support from those who understand, it helps keep things positive ...........


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Does she have to be on these meds for the rest of her life? Like everyday? Do they make her manageable? Sorry to be asking so many questions I am just trying to learn all I can about medicating. I have never had any dog with "mental issues" like Victor.


No, she will come off of them as soon as she has had a sustained period (2-3 months) anxiety free. She only gets the anti-anxiety drugs occasionally. I was also reluctant to put her on those meds, but the vet was fairly adamant that if she had cancer, or an open wound, I wouldn't tell her not to prescribe antibiotics, and her emotional suffering was equally in need of prompt and effective treatment. It put things in perspective for me.

In my case, I tried Rescue Remedy and calming pills and DAP diffusers and none of them helped. We didn't try the Thundershirt because at that point I was sick of spending so much money on things that didn't work.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you really have to research and know about the flower essences and know how they all work together..........there is a flower essence for each problem, and you have to have the right combo to work, plus put 4-6 drops 4-6 times a day for it to be effective..........there is something like 50 different essences, i think Back Flower has maybe 8 of them.........


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Leslie, if I had a dog with aggression or temperament issues I'd probably neuter him to scale back on the testosterone & prevent hormonal swings. That said, I wouldn't expect it to have much over all effect b/c most aggression problems aren't usually rooted in hormones & can't be solved by withholding them. I absolutely believe it was a wise decision, but one that might have only subtle (if any) effects.

Debbiebrown, many of us (myself included) are convinced temperament is genetic. Environmental pressures or support will effect how the temperament is expressed, ie building confidence in a fearful dog, restraint in a reactive dog etc, but the temperament itself is genetic. 

Your idea of seeking support from others is an excellent one. Consider contacting those who have shared some your experiences. IF you've worked with a trainer, or behaviorist, perhaps s/he could help put you in touch with others to possibly form a local group. Mom believed her respiratory support group added years to her life b/c they had knowledge even her medical specialists weren't aware of. It sounds as though Leslie is already doing some of this with Minnieski.

Don't let others 'blame' you. As with humans, no dog is perfect, and they all need & deserve love, respect, appreciation.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> Leslie, if I had a dog with aggression or temperament issues I'd probably neuter him to scale back on the testosterone & prevent hormonal swings. That said, I wouldn't expect it to have much over all effect b/c most aggression problems aren't usually rooted in hormones & can't be solved by withholding them. I absolutely believe it was a wise decision, but one that might have only subtle (if any) effects.
> 
> Debbiebrown, many of us (myself included) are convinced temperament is genetic. Environmental pressures or support will effect how the temperament is expressed, ie building confidence in a fearful dog, restraint in a reactive dog etc, but the temperament itself is genetic.
> 
> ...


 
Victor is already neutered and no it had no effect on him at all. I wish it would have. He had cryptorchidism(undescended) so he had to be neutered, but I was hoping it would help a little bit with his aggression. Like I said before it had no effect on him at all. In the beginning right after the neuter he was actually more aggression for a little while. 

I absolutely know Victor's aggression is genetic. His mother was the same way as far as the frenzy mode. He is a mix of Czech and American/German showlines which is not a good combo. It is a fight everyday to deal with his aggression, but I am trying to help him.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Years ago, when da Vinci my Irish Wolfhound was neutered, he initially acted more obnoxiously male for 1-2 wks (more marking, bratty teen behavior, quasi 'challenges'). I wondered then if the surgery somehow triggered a brief testosterone surge, but I don't know. He wasn't at all risky, even at his brattiest, so it was 1/2 comical & 1/2 exasperating. After the behavior faded it never again presented. He was emphatically a male dog, but not obnoxiously so.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also think diet is an important factor for these types of dogs, not sure anyone addressed this.............its definitely a no no to feed high preformance foods.......researching nutrition and diet for this issue also could help........


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Hi, I haven't read every post in this thread but I was wondering if you have done any of the B.A.T. (behavioral adjustment training) exercises? I did a search on this site and didn't find anything.
My 2 older dogs go balistic when someone comes to the house. Not an "I am going to rip you to pieces" bark but the "I will bark my head off untill you go away" bark. I started doing threshold exercises and even my husband was amazed at the difference in them. I can get them to be quiet and focus on me and of course the tasty high value treats. Now when a repair man or someone comes over they know "quiet gets cookies" and they don't percieve the intruder as a threat. They still bark of course but it is much easier for me to regain control.
I thought I had the website saved but I don't, I found it as a link from a shy k-9 site, it really helped in my case. 
I hope you are able to find something that will work with Victor.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

kiya said:


> Hi, I haven't read every post in this thread but I was wondering if you have done any of the B.A.T. (behavioral adjustment training) exercises? I did a search on this site and didn't find anything.
> My 2 older dogs go balistic when someone comes to the house. Not an "I am going to rip you to pieces" bark but the "I will bark my head off untill you go away" bark. I started doing threshold exercises and even my husband was amazed at the difference in them. I can get them to be quiet and focus on me and of course the tasty high value treats. Now when a repair man or someone comes over they know "quiet gets cookies" and they don't percieve the intruder as a threat. They still bark of course but it is much easier for me to regain control.
> I thought I had the website saved but I don't, I found it as a link from a shy k-9 site, it really helped in my case.
> I hope you are able to find something that will work with Victor.


 
Well nothing works food,treats,cookies with Victor. As soon as he sees someone at the gate/in the yard that is not myself or my husband he goes after them. He will not stop for anything. That is the problem and it is not just a "go away" bark he will bite and/or grab that person. He did it at his other home. He has not bitten anyone here so far because we won't give him the opportunity. He has grabbed my nephew by the leg before though. He did this even after introductions. He does not care who it is or how many times he has been introduced to them. He WILL go after them. We realize that Victor is dangerous so now we crate him before anyone comes over. Thank you for your suggestions though. I appreciate any help or advice.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

did you have his Thyroid checked? maybe someone already covered this........


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Victor is already neutered and no it had no effect on him at all. I wish it would have. He had cryptorchidism(undescended) so he had to be neutered, but I was hoping it would help a little bit with his aggression. Like I said before it had no effect on him at all. In the beginning right after the neuter he was actually more aggression for a little while.
> 
> I absolutely know Victor's aggression is genetic. His mother was the same way as far as the frenzy mode. He is a mix of Czech and American/German showlines which is not a good combo. It is a fight everyday to deal with his aggression, but I am trying to help him.



I know you have had and are having a challenging time with Victor but I would like to say Thank You for not giving up on him! So many people would have dumped him off on someone else by now and he would have ended up being passed around until he ended up in a shelter alone and confused and waiting to die or either just dumped him in a shelter themselves. It takes a very special person to continue to keep a dog in their home with these kind of issues and I really do thank you for it. I honestly don't know that much about aggression so I certainly can't give you any advice. But it seems to me, even if Victor has to be placed in a crate in another room when you have guests over and he can't ever be out when there are people at your house, at least he is in a home with people who love him and that he loves back.


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