# Kira's reaction to a rauscous house full of guests?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I witnessed some odd behavior from Kira this past weekend.

Saturday night, we had a house full of friends (maybe 15 adults). The atmosphere was upbeat, with loud music, and alcohol. We were all in kitchen / family room area.
I mention this because I want you to understand that the energy level was high (no pun).

During all this, Kira was a perfect house guest. She simply laid on her mat, with a bone, and bothered no one.

THEN, as the music and people got louder, Kira get got up from her mat, and started "working the room". She was puffed, tail raised, huffy and puffy, and was going to each guest one at a time, and nipping their pants at the ankles if they moved away from where they were standing or sitting. She never appeared to be threatening, and no one was afraid of her. At one point, she walked over to a female friend, and just grabbed her shirt sleeve, and attempted to pull her away from the table.
I corrected her a few times before crating her, but was really curious you think she may have been thinking?

It's hard to completely describe what I witnessed, but it appeared as if she wanted to "_break up the party"._

This is not the first time I witnessed something like this. A while ago, I was playing in the floor with my wife and chilldren. When the play became agitated, Kira started pulling us apart. Of course, I found it cute and funny, but deep down inside I was curious what she was thinking.

Do you think Kira simply doesn't like a rauscous environment, and attempts to calm things down?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Sounds like she was stressed and it would have been better to crate her.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sigh....

Kira is not comfortable with strangers and a lot of commotion in her house. You already know this.

She should have been in her crate, or in a room away from the hubbub.

It is not cute or funny to have a GSD biting and pulling at your guests' clothing. Doesn't matter whether anyone was afraid or not. All it would take is a tiny piece of skin to be caught in the clothing, enough of a nip to leave a bruise or draw blood, and you're in trouble. Why would you risk this? And why would you put Kira in this position?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is going to be my only response to this because nothing has changed -- we have been over this so many times -- the dog is stressed -- it is so not cute or funny and you keep putting your dog into situations that she can not handle.

to add to that I would not put the best, most stable temperament dogs in that situation - not for fear of what the dog may do , but out of respect to the animal who does not need to deal with people harrasing him , getting silly with a few stiff drinks --


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Not sure if you read the whole story. Kira gave no signs of being stressed whatsoever. She was fine. She was on her mat, enjoying her bone. Couldn't ask for anything more from her. People are always over my house, and she never bothers anyone. She's getting older, and much calmer these days.

In this case, as the room dynamics changed, so did she. 

Carmen,
Seriously... Can you PLEASE stop throwing that in my face. I do NOT intenionally put my dog in stressful situations. What the heck could be so stressful about having your dog in a house ful of guests? This is her house, and people are always in an out. She lives here. Should I have sent her to a kennel because I was having a party?
She doesn't even bark at strangers, or normally make a sound at anything. She's been so calm. She loves everyone. She's so friendly, and polite.

I mentioned her behavior because I'm curious why the change.

Freestep,

She was fine.
When I saw what she was doing, I did crate her, and she went to sleep.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> THEN, as the music and people got louder, Kira get got up from her mat, and started "working the room". She was puffed, tail raised, huffy and puffy, and was going to each guest one at a time, and nipping their pants at the ankles


I don't think this is odd at all. 
Dogs are energy mirrors. As the energy level got higher, and people started having more adult beverages, Kira sensed the change and it stressed her out. 

That is why she reacted the way she did. A house full of loud music and people on her normally safe and tranquil territory.

Can't say I blame her. I tend to like peace and quiet, too


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

From what our breeder warned us about, it may be the alcohol and it's effects on people. When we first got Molly, her breeder was doing training with a small group of us and told us some stories of bad outcomes when people drank too much around their dogs.

At first glance it would seem like a loud environment with lots of people might upset her. But last week, Molly who is normally very protective at our business, got the opportunity to watch our local police Emergency Services Unit practice a hostage situation on the business property. There were 15 plus men is camouflage, helmets, pistols around their legs, rifles, and a trained K9 unit - they were loud and serious and sober. Molly was extremely calm and polite to all involved. That's why I say it could be the alcohol and Kira sensing people were not themselves, possibly uncontrollable.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'd say it was the intoxication of the guests that upset her too.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree with Gretchen and Sunflowers. I could see this happening with my very social no-issues previous male. I don't think it's Kira in particular. Now you know.  I know that YOU know Kira best. I also know you love her enough to not do things that you know will stress her out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Kira gave no signs of being stressed whatsoever.


You described a stressed out dog. 
Not sure what you want us to say.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Sounds like she became stressed once the environment became even more energized. You did the right thing by crating her and now you have a better idea of what her tolerance level is. Sounds like a fun party


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I don't think this is odd at all.
> Dogs are energy mirrors. As the energy level got higher, and people started having more adult beverages, Kira sensed the change and it stressed her out.
> 
> That is why she reacted the way she did. A house full of loud music and people on her normally safe and tranquil territory.
> ...





Gretchen said:


> From what our breeder warned us about, it may be the alcohol and it's effects on people. When we first got Molly, her breeder was doing training with a small group of us and told us some stories of bad outcomes when people drank too much around their dogs.
> 
> At first glance it would seem like a loud environment with lots of people might upset her. But last week, Molly who is normally very protective at our business, got the opportunity to watch our local police Emergency Services Unit practice a hostage situation on the business property. There were 15 plus men is camouflage, helmets, pistols around their legs, rifles, and a trained K9 unit - they were loud and serious and sober. Molly was extremely calm and polite to all involved. That's why I say it could be the alcohol and Kira sensing people were not themselves, possibly uncontrollable.


Thanks for the informative response.



Blanketback said:


> I'd say it was the intoxication of the guests that upset her too.


It would seem that way.



Jag said:


> I agree with Gretchen and Sunflowers. I could see this happening with my very social no-issues previous male. I don't think it's Kira in particular. Now you know.  I know that YOU know Kira best. I also know you love her enough to not do things that you know will stress her out.


Of course I do. I questioned her behavior, not mine.



msvette2u said:


> You described a stressed out dog.
> *Not sure what you want us to say*.


^^^^ I think a few may have given me a decent response. That's good enough for me. You don't have to say anything, if you don't have an answer.

Honestly, I don't think I described a stressed out dog. I made it very clear that she was enjoying her bone on her mat. She was unfazed for quite some time.
She may have become stressed at a certain point, but who in their right mind can anticipate that?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think she was ready for the party to be over and was telling your guest that it was time for them to leave!


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

LOL at RobK ... Kira was tired Anthony and just wanted everyone to go home TEE HEE

Honestly, I think it was the alcohol. I don't drink so I've never experienced it with my dogs, but I've heard my friends say similar things about their dogs when they have guests and booze ...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

robk said:


> I think she was ready for the party to be over and was telling your guest that it was time for them to leave!


LOL!

Anthony, I know you weren't questioning your behavior. I question people that are questioning your intentions. I don't think you did anything wrong. You know her the best. You know what you saw. If you're saying she wasn't stressed, then I totally believe you. She sounded like she was totally enjoying herself there for awhile! Any escalation in 'energy' in the house like that would evoke some kind of response in most dogs. You saw it, you crated her. I don't want to see this turn into a 'put down Anthony' thread. You've done an amazing job with her.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Have to agree with Carmen and Freestep here. This was a stressful situation for her if you realize it or not. 

Maybe not to you, but a room full of noise and commotion is stressful for her. You may not find these situation stressful for you, but a dog that's hackling, tail raised, and nipping at strangers is showing pretty obvious signs of being stressed. 

Kira needs to never be put in these type of situations - it's just too much stimuli for her. You know this from past experiences and all the advice you've received here. She's eventually going to hit her thresholds and it's not going to be good if you keep pushing her like this. 

My advice is to just crate her away from everyone else for her safety and the safety of your guests in the future. She's just not comfortable in these type of situations. The more you do it, the worse it's probably going to get. Not vice versa.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I think dogs are very sensitive to the drug/alcohol thing. Drugs/alcohol are very acceptable in my area. We share a parking lot at our business with a medical marijuana prescription business. Lets just say most of their customers do not look like cancer patients who are looking for a miracle to help with pain, etc. They look like they are already on "prescriptions" when they arrive. When Molly is at work with me, she reacts a lot to these people. Not in an overt way, but is highly alert. She also gets this way when I have to walk her past people standing outside a row of bars in order to get to a stretch of open benches by the beach in my area.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Have to agree with Carmen and Freestep here. This was a stressful situation for her if you realize it or not.
> 
> Maybe not to you, but a room full of noise and commotion is stressful for her. You may not find these situation stressful for you, but a dog that's hackling, tail raised, and nipping at strangers is showing pretty obvious signs of being stressed.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts on this. I don't totally disagree with Carmen and Freestep's response. I disagree with the way they regard me as a dog owner. I'm expected to know as much as they do, and I don't. 
I agree that Kira showed stress, but not initially. How would I have known?
Does everyone remove their dogs from parties? If so, then this is a new one for me.

I have a few questions:

1) If Kira is normally very social, and unfazed by people and company, why would I remove her, if she hasn't shown me that she can't be around a room full of people?

2) Should I have anticipated that the music and alcohol would have an adverse effect on her?

And just to clarify... Kira was loose for a good hour or so, before showing a change in her behavior. People were marveling over how polite she was. I taught her to mind her manners to guests, and allow people to enter my home at will. She goes into a down, stay when I open the door, and doesn't bother anyone.
That's why I questioned the turnaround in behavior.

Just curious....

What do the rest of you do with your dogs, if you have a get together? (assuming your dog is friendly, of course)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I have only had one 'party'. My shepherds were put away in crates, I believe. I know for sure my female was because she was unpredictable. At my son's graduation party, I had to keep them both crated because my family is afraid of shepherds and told me they wouldn't come if I had my dogs out.  I don't know what I'll do now. I'll have to see. Now you know that when things get more loud and excited that it's time to put her away. However, I wouldn't put her away right off since she does well with that. My male liked people, but if they were rowdy he was more on guard.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> What the heck could be so stressful about having your dog in a house ful of guests?


Are you SERIOUS?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

It does sound like a fun party! I can picture the entire scene, I really can...even though it has been a while since I have been to a party.

Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with alcohol being present. I think it has everything to do with a dog that didn't feel comfortable with an escalated energy level. That is what she was responding to. 

Usually the most obvious, most simple explanation is the actual explanation for a behavior. This is a dog that is a little on the reactive side, that was in a room full of people getting progressively louder. At some point she reached her threshold and reacted. She didn't react because of anyone's alcohol consumption or because Timmy fell into the well or because she can smell guilt on the hands of the guy sitting in the corner chair who is cheating on his wife. She reacted because she had reached her stress threshold. 

You might want to look at it as a frustration behavior. My sons liked to play keep away with Jackson and Tanner (my two GSD). Jackson never tired of the game and enjoyed racing between the boys. That was the whole point of the game for Jackson, running from one boy to the other. Tanner didn't see it that way. The whole point of having a ball around as far as Tanner was concerned was for HIM to get the ball and either bring it back to someone or to stand there and chomp on it. Tanner found it very stressful after a few seconds and would resort to growling and mouthing on the feet of whoever had the ball last. He didn't do it because he smelled alcohol or wanted attention. He did it because he was leaking frustration.

I see Kira's described behavior in the same light as Tanner's behavior. She felt stressed because of the increasing energy level in the room, she reached her threshold and was leaking frustration. 
Sheilah


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> THEN, as the music and people got louder, Kira get got up from her mat, and started "working the room". She was puffed, tail raised, huffy and puffy, and was going to each guest one at a time, and nipping their pants at the ankles if they moved away from where they were standing or sitting. She never appeared to be threatening, and no one was afraid of her. At one point, she walked over to a female friend, and just grabbed her shirt sleeve, and attempted to pull her away from the table.
> I corrected her a few times before crating her, but was really curious you think she may have been thinking?


I don't know Anthony...not sure what kind of response you were looking for? 

Guests to my home should never be put in a situation where my dog is nipping at pants at the ankles or being grabbed by a shirt sleeve in attempt to pull them from the spot they are sitting or standing. 

I'm glad you did crate her. 

Guests drinking alcohol or not, your dog, that your resonsible for..IMO was stressed and gave your guests a _warning_ that she didn't like their behaviour and or her surroundings at that moment...not sure what's beyond her warnings and hope you and Kira are never in that situation.

For the record I am not jumping on the Anthony stinks bandwagon...just my honest opinion on this thread alone.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Originally Posted by *Anthony8858*  
_What the heck could be so stressful about having your dog in a house ful of guests?

_


I think it depends on the temperament of the guests. Our previous dog, Mandy grew up with my daughters when they were in junior h.s..I think Mandy thought she was forever a teenage girl (not a dog sometimes). Mandy would love when my daughters had parties and sleepovers and their were a dozen girls all over the floor. But of course they were not drinking alcohol.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I agree that Kira showed stress, but not initially. How would I have known?
> Does everyone remove their dogs from parties?


GSDs? Yes. They are not generally social butterfly, party-animal type dogs.



> 1) If Kira is normally very social, and unfazed by people and company, why would I remove her, if she hasn't shown me that she can't be around a room full of people?


Because you know she gets stressed with a lot of hubbub and activity. I remember you posting about how people were always coming in and out of the house, your kids' friends, etc., and that it was stressing her out. We recommended that you crate her or put her in a quiet room away from the commotion. This recommendation was given was a while back, but it still applies.



> 2) Should I have anticipated that the music and alcohol would have an adverse effect on her?


YES!!



> And just to clarify... Kira was loose for a good hour or so, before showing a change in her behavior. People were marveling over how polite she was. I taught her to mind her manners to guests, and allow people to enter my home at will. She goes into a down, stay when I open the door, and doesn't bother anyone.
> That's why I questioned the turnaround in behavior.


She was stressed. She was able to handle the stress up to a point, but when she reached her threshold, she became upset and started walking through the crowd huffing and puffing, tail up, nipping at your guests... that right there should tell you that the situation was uncomfortable for her right from the get-go. She was putting up with it for a while, lying on her bed chewing a bone, but the stress was building and building, and at a certain point it was too much for her to bear. She should never be put in that position.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Freestep- if the activity doesn't escalate, and it's just people in the house.. do you still think a shepherd should be crated right off? I know they aren't usually 'social butterflies', but if they're always crated when people come over then how are they supposed to know it's OK? I'm curious because I'm wondering how to handle this in the future. We're moving by family, so I expect we may finally have people over.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

I bring my dog in public, a *lot*. He certainly is a social butterfly. I have brought him to bars, cafes, MIDTOWN MANHATTAN, and restaurants, fairly loud, very noisy, and busy places. I keep a keen eye on him, usually he is in a down and is resting. I treat and praise him often. When and if he does begin whining and fussing, I take him on a walk around, if that does not help, then we are out, it is my responsibility to do that. It is no different at home with parties, yes it is his home and likely to feel a little more comfortable, but if he can not handle it, why push it? You did not push it, and that is fine, but you probably should have crated her at the first sign of distress instead of correcting her.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1) If Kira is normally very social, and unfazed by people and company, why would I remove her, if she hasn't shown me that she can't be around a room full of people?
> 
> 2) Should I have anticipated that the music and alcohol would have an adverse effect on her?


1. It's just too much for her. Alcohol, large groups of strangers (to the dog) on her own turf, and past nerve issues is not a very good cocktail. It's like a person with social anxiety type issues. They may be good with smaller and more familiar crowds, but when things get loud and strange (to the dog) like a party can get... it's just too much. It's eventually going to push her over the edge.

2. Yes, but now you know better for future get-togethers.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Anthony it sounds like Kira did ok and tolerated it and then showed her desire for things to calm down or be over. Daisy could handle a party w/ adults very well however 12 folks was about her limit. She and Lucky both got put in the basement or outside to give everybody a good time. I also think the GSD are built to protect and herd. Loud noise and people moving about can bring out the deputy dog in them.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

sit said:


> It does sound like a fun party! I can picture the entire scene, I really can...even though it has been a while since I have been to a party.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with alcohol being present. I think it has everything to do with a dog that didn't feel comfortable with an escalated energy level. That is what she was responding to.
> 
> ...


This makes a world of sense to me.



Courtney said:


> I don't know Anthony...not sure what kind of response you were looking for?
> 
> Guests to my home should never be put in a situation where my dog is nipping at pants at the ankles or being grabbed by a shirt sleeve in attempt to pull them from the spot they are sitting or standing.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that I've been working with her. Of late, she's been a social butterfly, and has not shown me any signs of stress at home.



Freestep said:


> GSDs? Yes. They are not generally social butterfly, party-animal type dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I do recall her issues in the past. I feel that she got past them, and has since become very welcoming in my home. She hasn't shown ANY signs that she doesn't like the comings and goings of people in my home. Teens walk in all day. They pet her, sit with her,and she licks their hands to slop. 

NOW... To talk about her threshold... That's another story. Isn't that a learning experience? Is there a sure fire way of knowing a dogs' tolerance level, without actually pushing it?

I apologize if I come off as a screwed up dog owner, that puts his dog in bad spots, but these spots may not be as recognizable to me, as they may be to you.

I think some of you should be thankful that I'm a caring, loving dog owner, trying my best to learn as much as possible from the many knowledgable folks here.
I could just lock her in a crate, and leave her there all night. 

*****
Just remembered an incident a couple months ago:
Went to a friends for dinner. She had maybe 12 people there. She had a maltese dog running freely throughout the evening.

3 hours later, as I was leaving, the dog charged me, grabbed my shoe, and attacked me. She bit a hole in my shoe. Everyone thought it was funny, because it was a maltese, but I related to that being a GSD, and it wouldn't have been so funny.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Anthony it sounds like Kira did ok and tolerated it and then showed her desire for things to calm down or be over. Daisy could handle a party w/ adults very well however 12 folks was about her limit. She and Lucky both got put in the basement or outside to give everybody a good time. I also think the GSD are built to protect and herd. Loud noise and people moving about can bring out the deputy dog in them.


This sounds about right.

So her behavior is not so unusual?

I guess I should know better next time.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I appreciate your thoughts on this. I don't totally disagree with Carmen and Freestep's response. I disagree with the way they regard me as a dog owner. I'm expected to know as much as they do, and I don't.
> I agree that Kira showed stress, but not initially. How would I have known?
> Does everyone remove their dogs from parties? If so, then this is a new one for me.
> 
> ...


#1. Yes, she should have been removed prior to guests arriving. This was a party and you knew there would be alcohol served and that people may get loud and act out in a way they may not while sober. Unless Kira has NEVER shown any stress behaviors around people/places/situations, then she should have been put up. If this was the first time she has ever shown the behaviors, then it was your "learning" chance. If this was not the first time, then this was more of a "got lucky the dog didn't do more damage" chance. How many times do you want to push that envelope?

#2, It wasn't the music or alcohol that had the effect on her, it was the people's behavior changes that caused her to start stressing. It is a well known rule in the dog world that you should never work/handle/walk/do anything with your dog when you are not 100% in control. If you are under the influence of alcohol or drugs, you no longer have that control, so leave the dog out of the picture.

As for my personal dogs, my 2 Shepherds have NO temperament issues, and have travelled with me all over ****'s half acre, sleeping in hotel rooms, being searched at the border because we had "oranges", have done bite prevention classes with kids 4months - 4years, walked in the Canada Day Parade, done Canada Day demos in a park with 10,000 people all around us.....AND STILL...if I was having a party, where I knew people would be consuming alcohol, I would put them away before any guests EVER got there!

All IMO, but hopefully its an opinion you will find useful!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

All of our dogs are very well socialized and overall are very steady in and around new people, things and places. We have one female who is a bit nervy in certain circumstances, but there is almost no rhyme or reason to it so we just anticipate and don't ever leave anything to chance. 
When we have a gathering, we usually let the dogs be around as guests arrive so they are aware they are in the house and that this is an "approved" happening. Then I will take all the dogs and crate them. We usually leave out Gryff, the old guy since he is a total love bug and he will take himself off to his bed in my office when he's had enough.
So, even though I really have no worries in my dogs, I don't leave them out. 
Having said that, I will leave a few dogs out when we host the Schutzhund club since they are all obviously dog savvy and the dogs all know everyone very well and are well behaved around them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Anthony! *I* had trouble being at gatherings with 15 or so Staten Islanders! THE VOLUME! So I am going to make an assumption and guess that the amount of noise that night was significantly greater than in many other parties with similar number of guests. :rofl: Unless you had friends from some exchange program in Greenwich CT...it was probably a lot of fun but also chaotic and LOUD. 

I took 2 of my dogs on a Home Visit for a family originally from Brooklyn. Real Brooklyn, not hipster Brooklyn. There were 2 main adults, 2 other adults, 2 kids. My dogs literally were immobilized by the noise and the gesturing. They sat on either side of me, totally overwhelmed by the volume. There was no alcohol, it was a Sunday afternoon, and it was just a visit, not a party. My dogs looked like the statues they used to have as prizes on Wheel of Fortune. I had a blast and loved that family, but had selected my 2 most people oriented dogs - dogs that would tolerate things on a home check. And we were only there about 2 hours, some of that outside, which helped. Still, it was a lot. If needed, I would have put them in the car. 

sit, stay's post was great. I think NSmiths opinion is pretty good too and bottom line on all of these posts is to not let it happen again, of course. 

_My_ bottom line is I don't always need to know the why of behavior, I just need to...
A. set the dog up to succeed as much as possible
B. try not to let something go on too long or push things too far when I see that I am not achieving A

Those things sound easy, but they aren't always so (oh, look how great he's doing with that dog - chomp - whoops) because sometimes optimism trumps reality. This is a good one to learn from and be thankful that she did not escalate.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

carmspack said:


> to add to that I would not put the best, most stable temperament dogs in that situation - not for fear of what the dog may do , but out of respect to the animal who does not need to deal with people harrasing him , getting silly with a few stiff drinks --


Yup. 



Anthony8858 said:


> What do the rest of you do with your dogs, if you have a get together? (assuming your dog is friendly, of course)


Depends on the dog. Wiva can be out - she will just chill by my feet and not bat an eye at others. She just doesn't care about anyone not her handler and is a perfect aloof GSD. Whiskey will get irritated and police anyone loud or aggressive so he gets put away when people get slurry. My rescue dogs will need to be put away and crated/kennel far away from the noise/chaos. They cannot handle the stress and chaos.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Maybe Kira is like me when I am in a loud and crowded place, I feel like a longtailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. :crazy:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have had parties occasionally, none of my gsd's cared in the least, I never put them up, they weren't social butterflies, just went with the flow

My aussies on the otherhand, particularly my female, is a soft thing, and she does stress when there are more than a few people around, therefore, she is put up so she doesn't 'have' to stress.

I won't comment on Kira's behavior, because I didn't see it I CAN tell you tho, Masi is no social butterfly, UNLESS, it's a person with booze on their breath, I don't drink, my husband doesn't drink, but that dog is "attracted" to boozers 

If she came across a stranger she would have no interest in them, if that "stranger" was drunk, or had booze on their breath, she'd be all over them like a big sloppy lush. Why? I have no clue, but the drunker the better for her. I have concluded if I were ever attacked by a drunk person, Masi would be no help..

Anthony, Masi woulda loved your party))


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Yes I do recall her issues in the past. I feel that she got past them, and has since become very welcoming in my home.


"getting past" something implies that a switch has been flipped and the dog no longer has any issues with it. This is not exactly true. Kira's nature is not that of a happy-go-lucky, laid-back, roll-with-the-punches kind of girl. She has weak nerves, and that is neither her fault nor yours--it's simply what God gave her, and you must always be aware of it--this is her CORE temperament. You have done a world of good for her, as evidenced by the fact that she now is able to tolerate things that cause her stress... but only to a certain extent, and once that threshold is crossed, she's going to start acting out. You want to stop it before it gets to that point. 

She *tolerates* social comings and goings to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean she is entirely comfortable. Just because you can't see signs of stress doesn't mean she isn't feeling it... she is being as stoic and as tolerant as she possibly can be, because she knows that it pleases you. But because of this, it's very easy to overdo it, and she may seem to "suddenly" snap... the stress was building all along.



> NOW... To talk about her threshold... That's another story. Isn't that a learning experience? Is there a sure fire way of knowing a dogs' tolerance level, without actually pushing it?


Yes. You know she is not entirely comfortable with a lot of social commotion where strangers are involved. It is best to simply keep her out of those situations. Don't "test" her. Don't pressure her. She needs to feel safe and secure, but she also wants to please you. This will cause her conflict if pleasing you means doing something she is not comfortable with. You need to be the one to provide safety and security, to give her "permission" to avoid stressful situations. You should always be aware of her comfort levels and of the kinds of things that bother her. Big dogs, parties, lots of commotion and excitement. When in doubt, remove her from any situation that has caused her stress in the past.



> I apologize if I come off as a screwed up dog owner, that puts his dog in bad spots, but these spots may not be as recognizable to me, as they may be to you.
> 
> I think some of you should be thankful that I'm a caring, loving dog owner, trying my best to learn as much as possible from the many knowledgable folks here.


Sorry if we're constantly coming off as "let's beat up Anthony because he made another mistake". I don't think anyone here doubts you are a caring, loving dog owner--just a clumsy one at times.  I don't mean that as an insult. Heck, I might know dogs but I can't parallel park worth a dang, and my husband is always laughing at me... "how long have you been driving?" :crazy:

Believe me, it's frustrating to ME to see you going through these contortions with Kira, because it seems to me like you should have "gotten it" by now... but this is your first GSD, and you don't have a lot of experience with dogs in general, and it's easy for me to forget that things that are second nature to me are totally new ground for you. It's a learning curve, and it's not your problem that other people like me are impatient and frustrated that you aren't "getting it" as quickly as we think you should.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> "getting past" something implies that a switch has been flipped and the dog no longer has any issues with it. This is not exactly true. Kira's nature is not that of a happy-go-lucky, laid-back, roll-with-the-punches kind of girl. She has weak nerves, and that is neither her fault nor yours--it's simply what God gave her, and you must always be aware of it--this is her CORE temperament. You have done a world of good for her, as evidenced by the fact that she now is able to tolerate things that cause her stress... but only to a certain extent, and once that threshold is crossed, she's going to start acting out. You want to stop it before it gets to that point.
> 
> She *tolerates* social comings and goings to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean she is entirely comfortable. Just because you can't see signs of stress doesn't mean she isn't feeling it... she is being as stoic and as tolerant as she possibly can be, because she knows that it pleases you. But because of this, it's very easy to overdo it, and she may seem to "suddenly" snap... the stress was building all along.
> 
> ...



Freestep,
Thank you for writing this ^^^^

It was beautifully explained, and well understood.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I can understand where you're coming from, Anthony...

This is my take on it. I have a GSD that is likely very weak-nerved though has barely shown it... He used to growl at people if they grabbed him for pets and he didn't know them, on leash.

That's not going to stop me from taking him places, doing things with him (agility, dock diving, flyball, dog park) and having people over. Some people think I'm setting him up to fail, some people think he's amazing and incredible, some people don't know him and have no opinions. _I _know exactly what his threshold is that MIGHT illicit a growl, or has in the past, even though with the help of a trainer we have worked through this intensely. I don't let anyone pet him when he's leashed, and when we're at the dog park in the office, he stays by me, if anyone gets too interested in him I tell them he's pretty aloof with people and would prefer you to just throw a ball for "bonding" time instead of hug him like a bear... If I can't supervise, he's crated. 

It took us a good 6 months to a year to figure out WHY exactly he was doing this, then to fix it (it was related to a medical issue, but being weak-nerved, it just kind of stuck around a bit, after) and carry on our lives. In that time we tried a lot of stuff, I had a lot of "helpers" test him and a lot of training happened. He was put in numerous different situations under my watchful eye (just like your situation!) to see where he would start getting stressed/agitated. 

Now we're to the point where I know his threshold and keep him under it, I'm never going to push that for any reason, and I do all I can to ensure he stays under it, even if it means yelling at people or shoving them (which I have and will do to ensure my dog is safe and alive, even if it means getting an assault charge; I'm not going to lock my dog up in my house for the rest of his life... he's only 3) to avoid conflict/contact.

We can have people over just fine, anyone can walk into the house, he's not going to fret or get stressed like Kira might. I don't know how long you've had these issues with her or the full extent of them... but it seems like you're finally getting to the point where all-around in any circumstance you know exactly what she can and can't handle, as noted by the change in behavior. So now you need to start making sure you keep her below that threshold... if she started to act stressed after so many people or so long, or maybe when she finished her bone, don't wait as long next time. It's not to say that your dog can't be a dog and a part of the family and fun, just cut it short to avoid her feeling overwhelmed next time. Or, just let her meet everyone for a moment then put her back away, for an hour or so, then let her out again, so that she's still getting attention and potty breaks and you're not feeling like you are abandoning her, but she's still under threshold and safe. 

I hope this makes sense, and good luck with her! I'm certainly used to being treated like an idiot about my dog from people online... whom have never even met him, most of whom who haven't even SEEN him. So don't feel too bad about what people say on the internet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .

From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
This is the dogs nature . 
the end.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .
> 
> From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
> When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
> ...


Carmen, (I knew you couldn't resist)

Your concerns are valid, but not YET with Kira. She doesn't have a GSD personality as we expect it to be. At least in MY EYES, not yet. She's very passive, super friendly, and to be honest, doesn't even growl at anything other than the cat that keeps going into our garbage. All the guests knew her, and everyone petted her. When she started to "get excited", they first laughed and said "hey, your puppy wants to play". As I walked over I can see that something excited her, and she was going from guest to guest nipping at their pants leg (mouthing), but not making actual contact. I called her off a couple times, and each time she responded, and (as you mention) tested my authority. She kept going back for more. That was MY RED FLAG. Kira ALWAYS listens to my commands. In this case, I sense that she was going "someplace else". She was as excited as she would be if I was holding her frisbee, and getting ready to fling it. Something changed from 3 minutes prior. From what I'm getting from this thread, she passed her threshold of stress tolerance. That's when I crated her. She was sleeping a few minutes later.

Carmen, after reading your response above, I can't help but to realize how right you are, and easily this could have been tragic. Maybe I am guilty of taking her timid personality for granted.Maybe my expectations of her exceed her ability to stay balanced. Maybe I've "humanized" her to the point of forgetting that she's a dog, and she could react, and cause physical harm to someone.

I know there are times where most feel I get beat up for some of my threads, but I'll admit that they may be deserving from your perspective. From the outside looking in, not only have i set her up to fail, but I may have put others in harm's way. I honestly didn't see all this.
Kira's maturing, and she's capable of anything. I happen to look at her as a gentle puppy.

Thank you


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Dang - I said only one post on this -- okay so maybe two .
> 
> From the view point of your guests . What did they do when the dog snapped and walked around the room like some possessed beast , all hackles and tail . This is such a serious warning from the dog who has entered the fear aggressive zone where in her mental state she may have been unavailable to you calling her , or may have been so overloaded with stimulation and anxiety that she may have snapped at you when you tried to get her by the collar - if she was even wearing one (as I am seeing more and more "naked" dogs) . You are so lucky that there wasn't more damage to the incident. What if the person had hit the dog out of surprise or screamed out of surprise - then you would have had real life decoy-work in your living room.
> When you have guests they should be comfortable and uninhibited , not guarding their actions or not enjoying themselves. Not everyone likes GSD's , many people have issues from bad experiences as a child, not everyone likes dogs . Don't get yourself into the position where you will have some law suit from a bite that could have should have been prevented.
> ...


Carmen is 100% right......Good for you realizing this may have been a very bad situation 
My dog is very stable....no temperament issues. If we have other kids over he is put away. We recently had my hubby's 40th with more than a house full......he was away from all the action in the kennel with our other dog......no way were they going to be around all those people......don't feel guilty about putting her away.....she will thank you for it!!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

sparra said:


> Carmen is 100% right......*Good for you realizing this may have been a very bad situation *
> My dog is very stable....no temperament issues. If we have other kids over he is put away. We recently had my hubby's 40th with more than a house full......he was away from all the action in the kennel with our other dog......no way were they going to be around all those people......don't feel guilty about putting her away.....she will thank you for it!!


How else would I know these things, if I wasn't willing to throw myself out there ? :wild:

I'll keep taking my lumps.... I may not be on par with many around here, but I'm light years ahead of the guy standing next to me at Petco.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you know you really need to wake up and stop
romanticizing about Kira's behaviour. you put
her in bad situations then you're baffled by her 
behaviour.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> you know you really need to wake up and stop
> romanticizing about Kira's behaviour. you put
> her in bad situations then you're baffled by her
> behaviour.


Can I ask you a question?

Do you go to dog parks?

Answer truthfully, because I know the answer.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i go to the dog park in my neighbor. i take my dog
to the woods where there's 10 to 25 dogs playing.
i take my dog to parties, i have parties. we visit
people. people visit us and bring their dogs. we go
to restaraunts, bars, stores, etc. i have a "go everywhere" dog.



Anthony8858 said:


> Can I ask you a question?
> 
> Do you go to dog parks?
> 
> Answer truthfully, because I know the answer.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i go to the dog park in my neighbor. i take my dog
> to the woods where there's 10 to 25 dogs playing.
> i take my dog to parties, i have parties. we visit
> people. people visit us and bring their dogs. we go
> to restaraunts, bars, stores, etc. i have a "go everywhere" dog.


I'm glad you answered honestly, because in my opinion, there's just as much of a chance that your dog is put into a "bad situation" as anyone else.

Why is it OK for your dog to run with 25 dogs in a dog park? Is it because you know your dog's tolerance level, or you trust the other dogs to behave? Either way, there's always a chance that something could go terribly wrong.

I'm curious how you know that he'll never get too excited at a party, or fight with a Mastif at the dog park?

Did your dog tell you this?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony , he said he has a "go everywhere" dog.

You do not.

Your DOG keeps on telling you , PEOPLE on the forum keep telling you, that your dog is not this type , and can't handle it . 

To this point the dog has always responded in a fear - FLIGHT . You go back in all the exchanges that we have had and you will find one where I said the day will come when she will be overloaded and bite someone (instead of get her self out of the picture).

That day has come. 

She did not retreat to a quiet corner , in some other room. 

She stressed to the point where she took the other option, can't go into flight , so must go into fight. 

She was not cutely trying to clear the room. She was trying to find relief .


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Why is it OK for your dog to run with 25 dogs in a dog park? Is it because you know your dog's tolerance level, or you trust the other dogs to behave? Either way, there's always a chance that something could go terribly wrong.


This is a matter of understanding the dog(s) you have and being able to anticipate their behavior the majority of the time. Also, if you have a steady, clear headed dog, the other dogs will absolutely pick up on it and act accordingly. As you have mentioned in other posts I believe, Kira also has the ability to bring out the punk in other dogs. This is not uncommon and that is they kind of dog who should only socialize under very experienced supervision.

We have 9 GSDs, 7 are WL and 2 are WGSL. Of those 9, 7 of them are "go everywhere" dogs. The remaining 2 are less thrilled with certain situations but we know that. The one female is fine 99% of the time and has gotten better over the 2 years we've owned her (we got her as an older pup). We understand her temperament and we push her when we feel we should and back off when it will be detrimental to her advancement. She is rock solid with other dogs, so I take her to our dog park every day. But we have been doing this for more years than I'd like to admit so I feel we have a good grasp of how to deal with it. The male is just a big, busy boy who could care less about people other than us and doesn't enjoy playing with other dogs so we don't put him in those situations as a matter of habit. When we do, he is extremely obedient and I don't worry about him, but other people are nervous around him. He is one of those "serious" dogs who just gives off a vibe. So I don't feel the need to force people to be around him, except the Schutzhund club folks who all find him a delight. He has never growled or barked inappropriately, much less made contact, he just looks at people a certain way and they get uncomfortable. 
We have plenty of clients who have dogs that sound a bit more like your Kira. I am constantly stressing to them that they are playing with fire when they put her in a situation that has the potential of pushing the dog into fight or flight. When that response is at the top of their psyche, eventually it will be fight. The nipping of guests was a little bit of flight forward, if it continues she will up the ante. Since that didn't work, she will have to try harder next time she feels pressured. 
Like you've said you are pretty much a novice and the hand you are playing is a tough one. I appreciate the time you spend on here trying to make her life the best it could be, but this is not generally a condition that can be cured, it is a condition that will need to be managed. When she hits 7-8 years old, she will most likely morph into a more blasé dog about things, but that will also depend on how she is allowed to mature from this point on.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Bocron,
Thanks for understanding. 
Just a quick question ...
How do you know your dogs' limits? Were they pushed ?
And if so, would I be wrong to assume that you would never push them again. 

Could we both agree that I've now learned about Kira's limit with regard to parties?
After all, I did learn that dog parks are off limits, and I now avoid them. 

Carmen, I completely understand and don't disagree. I'm not arguing any points. I recognize my dogs' shortcomings to the best of my ability. 
My point with Doggiedad, was HOW does one know they have a " go everywhere dog"? Many people take their dogs to dog parks, until something happens. Doggiedad seems 100% certain that nothing could happen. Why is he so confident?
Is it genetic? From what I've learned from you and many others, it might be. 
Is it the handler or owner? Did I do this to my dog? Seems like a good possibility. 

Now to backpedal over the past year, I've done tons of "go everywhere" socializing with Kira. She has no problem going everywhere. 
She does have her limits, such as dog parks , and the now obvious loud parties. 

My point is how would one determine a dogs' " go everywhere" personality, without actually being out in that situation? 
Is this something an average dog owner should be able to determine, without pushing the limits?. 

I occasionally meet up with her trainer from her beginner class, and her trainer thinks she's amazing. She would never know Kira's "other side " without actually witnessing it. 
Should she?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Anthony, a lot of what you are asking can be determined by experience of the handler AND the genetic makeup of the dog.

We know our dogs limits because we purchased them with that in mind. My husband has had GSDs his entire life, and I have had working/breeds for at least the last 30 years. We don't' have nervy dogs because a)we know what we are looking at (for the most part) when we see the pedigree before we buy the dog, b) we work with breeders and sellers who have like knowledge and c) we look at a litter or prospect with said experience. 
We don't always bat 1000, but we come pretty close. Even a dog who may wash out of a training expectation will still be a great pet for someone in the long run.
To use a car analogy, we have a great big pickup truck with not-wonderful breaks. The truck will stop, you just have to be an experienced driver to anticipate how the weight and speed will affect the stopping power. Because of her inexperience, we don't let our 16yo daughter drive this truck. Maybe in a year or two after a lot more road time she will have the ability to judge it, but for now she doesn't drive it. 
We had a client a number of years ago who taught me a lot about this. It was a young couple who had bought a Beauceron from a breeder in France. The Beauceron as a breed is more suspicious and reactive, not a great breed for a novice. When the dog was around 2yo they started having issues with it becoming aggressive with people. They called us since the Beauceron club said we were the only trainers in the area with ANY experience with the breed (I had 5-6 Beaucerons at the point IIRC). The first visit, both husband and wife came. The dog was nervous, but adjusted to us and we got a little bit of work done. The second visit, the husband was away so the wife came alone. When she got out of the car with the dogs and started heading up the walkway to where we were standing, the dog became a freak. Pulling, growling, snarling, you name it. My husband told the woman to stop in her tracks but she just kept running her mouth and coming at us, all the while the dog is getting more and more agitated. Finally my husband had to YELL at her to STOP or someone was going to get seriously hurt! She froze and when the dog quieted down a bit we told her to put the dog on a down to see if it would relax. Finally it did and we had to "make friends" in a nice slow manner all over again.
Lesson here was the handler. The dog was obviously scared and yet the lady couldn't read it. The dog was telling her they were basically heading for a cliff and yet she wouldn't stop. The dog had no confidence in her handler to keep them safe. The poor dog decided to react with the first thing that she knows which was to try to scare us away since mom was clueless to the "danger". Obviously when the husband was there the dog felt protected and accepted us because he said it was fine. There are different levels to this, but this combo of nervy dog with clueless, scared handler was a time bomb. So a dog like yours is a handful, but for us may be a bump in the road whereas for you it's a crater. If you got Kira 4-5 dogs down the line, the issues would be more obvious to you and your ability to read them and adjust would change the dog. 
So back to the car thing, when I was 16 a Ferrari with touchy brakes would have been a very dangerous thing to me. Now that I'm in my 40's and have participated in many Driver's Track Days at local tracks with experienced instructors, that same Ferrari would be a blast. You got a Ferrari with touchy brakes for your first car when a nice sedan would have probably been easier. Can you learn to drive that Ferrari, with caution and instruction my guess is yes. Just don't attempt Le Mans without learning the local parking lot first.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

What you seem to be missing is that the big problem is that you're letting Kira go over threshold before removing her from these situations. When a dog goes over threshold, _that_ is when bad things happen. As the handler of a reactive dog, you need to learn to read your dog better and remove her _before_ she gets to the point where she is running in fear or going around nipping at people. Further, you need to learn to change your mindset from "how much can she handle?" to "will this stress her out?" and if the answer is yes, you remove her before there is a problem. It doesn't matter exactly how many people at a party she can handle, or whether she only goes over threshold when the party kicks up a notch--you know that she's uncomfortable, and there's no reason to force her to tolerate it. Try to train yourself to think like that.

As far as pushing a dog, I don't think you should be concerned about that with Kira at this point. You _never_ push a reactive dog to the limit--it only makes them more fearful, more reactive. An experienced handler can carefully expand a dog's comfort zone _to a degree_ (based largely on the dog's natural temperament), but you have to really know what you're doing in order to do so safely and without making the dog worse.

Look at the party from Kira's perspective. She's nervous, but tolerating all these noisy invaders in her house because she knows that's what you want. But she's not sure you're right about that. Eventually these noisy people go too far--maybe it's the noise, maybe it's just that they've been there too long, whatever--and she takes things into her own hands. She nips them and tries to clear them out. Then, she gets to go to a safe place away from it all, where she doesn't have to worry. She's just had an experience which reinforced her behavior--you nip, the problems go away. *This doesn't mean you were wrong to put her in the crate.* That was the best thing to do at that point. The problem is that you should have put her there *before she began nipping.* This is why it is so important to head these situations off before they escalate--every time she practices that behavior, it's going to reinforce it.

I have two "go anywhere" dogs and two dogs who have varying levels of reactivity and fear issues. I can honestly say that I've never had a bad incident with any of them, but I've also been doing this for many years and I am able to see when my dogs are getting stressed and fix the situation well before they go over threshold. If I didn't do that, I might still not ever have a bad incident, but I'd be causing my dogs a lot of unnecessary stress and playing with fire when it comes to a possible bite. Since you are a more novice handler, you should probably plan to err on the side of caution until you get a better handle on reading your dog.

As for how you get a "go anywhere" dog, it's a lot of factors. Genetics are definitely a big part--my most reactive dog never had anything bad happen or anything, but he's from (non-GSD) lines known for intense herding work and territorial aggression. Early socialization and proper training are a big issue. The handler also plays a role--a nervous handler isn't going to give his dog the kind of confidence they need to handle whatever comes at them.

And no, your trainer isn't necessarily wrong to not see this side of Kira. Many dogs are only reactive in certain situations.

It is a difficult training problem and I don't mean to be harsh, as it does sound like you are trying. However, it also sounds like you really need to back off and spend a lot more time learning about dog behavior in general and your dog in particular before worrying about how far she can go in these situations you know upset her.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

From RowdyDogs:

*She's just had an experience which reinforced her behavior--you nip, the problems go away. This doesn't mean you were wrong to put her in the crate. That was the best thing to do at that point. The problem is that you should have put her there before she began nipping. This is why it is so important to head these situations off before they escalate--every time she practices that behavior, it's going to reinforce it.
*
_ ^^^^There is just NO WAY I would have looked at this as you explained. ^^^^_

Thank you all for taking the time to write some great replies. It's all appreciated.

I'd like to sum this up.

Based on what I've read, we can agree that much of your actions are based on knowledge and experience. The last two responses clearly indicate this.

There aren't too many people willing to come on this board and "take their lumps" as much as I do. But with each lumping and thumping, I walk away with something learned from the experience. Sometimes I get it, and sometimes I don't. I think Kira is a difficult case for someone without the knowledge and experience that most of you have. She's a marshmallow with me, but has reactive tendencies that aren't always anticipated by an inexperienced handler like myself. I've documented her actions as much as possible, and sometimes go back and either read my posts or watch a video, and see what I've missed. 

I don't intentially push her limits, but I may not clearly know when to pull her back either. I didn't have to come here and describe her actions that night I had the party, but I chose to see what I can learn from her actions.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> The dog had no confidence in her handler to keep them safe. The poor dog decided to react with the first thing that she knows which was to try to scare us away since mom was clueless to the "danger".


This is exactly what Kira was doing when she was nipping people at the party. She accepted the guests at first, because it was expected of her, but she was never entirely comfortable... she sensed danger, and Daddy was oblivious to the "danger", so when she reached her threshold, her doggy brain said "Someone has to do something about this dangerous situation, and Daddy's not going to, so *I* am going to have to do it!"



Anthony8858 said:


> My point with Doggiedad, was HOW does one know they have a " go everywhere dog"? Many people take their dogs to dog parks, until something happens. Doggiedad seems 100% certain that nothing could happen. Why is he so confident?
> Is it genetic? From what I've learned from you and many others, it might be.
> Is it the handler or owner? Did I do this to my dog? Seems like a good possibility.


Most of it is genetic. Kira has weak nerves. That is genetic. She's improved greatly as she has matured, and learned how to handle stress--up to a point--but it doesn't undo her genetics. Because you continued to put her in stressful situations, she's gotten somewhat desensitized; she's done the best she can. Did you "cause" her weak nerves? No. Did you make it better or worse? On the whole, I think you've made it better, but you've seen what can happen when she's put into a situation where she's pushed past her threshold. Have you done irrepairable damage? At this point I don't think so, but if she continues to be pushed, you're likely to see more aggressive behavior come out. If she learns that aggressive behavior can solve her problems, THEN you have a bad situation on your hands.

Honestly, not every dog is a "go everywhere" dog. In fact, a lot of GSDs are not. How do you know which dogs are "go everywhere" dogs and which are not? Dogs with weak nerves are NOT. Period. Any dog that shows fear or aggression in a seemingly normal situation should not be pushed into the role of a "go everywhere" dog.



Anthony8858 said:


> Why is it OK for your dog to run with 25 dogs in a dog park? Is it because you know your dog's tolerance level, or you trust the other dogs to behave? Either way, there's always a chance that something could go terribly wrong.


There's always a chance in life of something going terribly wrong. A plane could crash right in the middle of the dog park. But if you KNOW your dog, you can have some sense of what he can and can't tolerate. How do you know? By watching his behavior. If Doggiedad's dog has been well-socialized since day one and has never shown signs of fear, nervousness, aggression, or stress, it's fairly good bet that he's a stable dog with strong nerves. Kira, when placed into certain situations, has shown fear, nervousness, aggression, and stress since day one. That should have been your first clue that she may not be a "go everywhere" kind of dog. Sure, she can ride around in your truck, go for walks, play with friends, normal dog stuff. But, as you realized, she should not be put into dog parks, she should not be forced to put up with a lot of people and commotion in the house, and I wouldn't take her to sporting events or things like that.

Dogs are just like people in this regard--some people are social, outgoing, and confident; they love parties and social events. To other people, such events are stressful. Some people are shy and introverted, and prefer to be alone, or with close friends in a small group. Nothing better or worse than anything else, it is what it is, and should be respected. No use trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Dogs are just like people in this regard--some people are social, outgoing, and confident; they love parties and social events. To other people, such events are stressful.


Excellent explanation. To me, it's extremely stressful to be around a crowd, therefore I tend to avoid it. 
It's not "bad" or "good" to be that way- it just _is_.
None of my own dogs would tolerate a houseful of people and I won't subject them to it.
It's that simple.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

bocron said:


> The male is just a big, busy boy who could care less about people other than us and doesn't enjoy playing with other dogs so we don't put him in those situations as a matter of habit. When we do, he is extremely obedient and I don't worry about him, but other people are nervous around him. He is one of those "serious" dogs who just gives off a vibe. So I *don't feel the need to force people to be around him*, except the Schutzhund club folks who all find him a delight. He has never growled or barked inappropriately, much less made contact, he just looks at people a certain way and they get uncomfortable.


I absolutely love this part of your post (the best)!


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't have many parties anymore but do entertain guests for holidays. I have not crated any of my dogs for these events. Stella goes into her crate by herself if she has had enough. If I thought one of my dogs was getting snarky or stressed I guess I would put them in a separate room or crate. Haven't had to yet. Stela seems to be able to tolerate more noise and such as she is maturing. Even my 3 year old grandson doesn't phase her too much anymore. In fact it seems she is really starting to enjoy playing with him!:groovy:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i got my pup when he was 9 weeks old. he was in a puppy class
at 10 weeks old. everyday, several times a day he had short
training sessions. everyday several times a day there was socializing.
i wanted my dog to be a pet/companion and the only way i figured
he could be the "go everywhere" dog was to to expose him to
many life encounters. when my dog was 6 months to 9 months
old he was attacked at the dog park several times. i figured he
was attacked because he was to young. i stopped going to the dog
park. i went to play groups and had play groups at our house. when
my dog was 1 yr old maybe 1&1/2 yrs old i returned to the dog park.
the attacks stopped. in the area in the woods where he plays and there's
sometimes 25 dogs running there's never a scrap. the dogs just play
like crazy. the creek is low in this area of the woods and people cross
the creek on their horses. the dogs are all around the horses and they
never bother the horses.

the reason i know i have a "go everywhere" dog is because
he goes everywhere with us without any problems.

i'm not certain about anything when it comes to my dog. i trust
my dog as long as i can see him or he's leashed. when dogs are together
anything can happen. they think and react independently of us.


Anthony8858 said:


> Carmen, I completely understand and don't disagree. I'm not arguing any points. I recognize my dogs' shortcomings to the best of my ability.
> My point with Doggiedad, was HOW does one know they have a " go everywhere dog"? Many people take their dogs to dog parks, until something happens. Doggiedad seems 100% certain that nothing could happen. Why is he so confident?
> Is it genetic? From what I've learned from you and many others, it might be.
> Is it the handler or owner? Did I do this to my dog? Seems like a good possibility.
> ...


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> *i got my pup when he was 9 weeks old. he was in a puppy class
> at 10 weeks old. everyday, several times a day he had short
> training sessions. everyday several times a day there was socializing.
> i wanted my dog to be a pet/companion and the only way i figured
> ...


The people here that know Kira, will say that I DID EXACTLY as you did.
Maybe Kira never recovered from her attack. Maybe it is all about nerve. Apparently, your dog got over it.

*If I ever brought Kira to the dog park, and subjected her numerous attacks, this board would have me neutered!*


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> I don't intentially push her limits, but I may not clearly know when to pull her back either.


That's great that you can see this. Whenever I read your threads, it seems that we're coming at the issues from opposite ends: you're asking, "Why does she _do_ that?" and I'm thinking, "You let her do _what_?" 

It's very interesting to try to understand canine behavior, but it's probably better done on someone else's dog, lol. Sometimes I think it's easy for me to train a dog just because I'm a very impulsive person, so I can jump right in and correct/redirect before anything even has a chance to happen. 

And other things seem to be coming from a different angle too - take the dog park: you think that people stop going after something happens, but that's not quite the whole story. In fact, I rushed my puppy right over to the dog park the day after a neighbor's JRT acted like a complete psycho, just so my guy would have 'good' dog memories fresh in his mind, instead of 'whoa! evil or what?!' 

I know you're doing the best that you can, and that's all anyone can ever do. Nobody can fault you for your efforts, but they do point out where you've fallen short - and you take it very well indeed.


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## Finnick<3 (Oct 29, 2012)

With the safety of my dogs in mind, I have always crated them in a closed room when I have multiple guests ESPECIALLY if I am serving alcohol.

Alcohol generally doesn't improve anyones balance or sense of responsibility. I worry that someone will stumble/trip, fall or knock into my dogs and injure them. A door left open or even a well intentioned person feeding my dog something they shouldn't have could be a disaster. 

There's more to consider than stress when you have multiple guests in your home.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I think there is a lot of good insights here. The only think I might add is that people can be stupid about dogs and these days a stupid person trick resulting in them being bitten will ALWAYS be considered the dogs fault...

I am just amazed when I go out with my dogs what I encounter. Just yesterday a neighbor walked up to Grim grabbed his cheeks and planted a kiss on his lips then hugged him around the neck before I got him free. Yes! No issue with the dog but it could have been and it would have been a mess if it was. I wrongly assumed a woman in her 50s would have more sense than that! 

Now mix folks with alcohol and a party and who knows what........ My dogs are fine but I usually put them up when folks come over unless they are "dog" folks. Too many people anymore view dogs as furry little people.


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