# Internet experts



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I had a long essay written-up, but it really boils down to this: Why listen to them? Why would one seek and apply the advice from a person who knows how to fix all your problems on the internet, but has never produced any actual results?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dang, Zahnburg just blew my cover . . .


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Is it sad that I wanna be a "internet expert"?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Is it sad that I wanna be a "internet expert"?


Yes it is. Wouldn't you prefer to actually be successful?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> I had a long essay written-up, but it really boils down to this: Why listen to them? Why would one seek and apply the advice from a person who knows how to fix all your problems on the internet, *but has never produced any actual results*?


What do you mean by this? I've gotten advice from many people here and it either solved the problem or helped. I'd call that results.

**ETA** Just noticed what section this was in so ignore my comment. I've not had schutzhund training advice.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> Yes it is. Wouldn't you prefer to actually be successful?


Well, the people I consider "internet experts" on the forum ARE successful - so......


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm sure that is true Brandi. However, it seems odd to me that people take advice from people who have more than enough trouble training their own dogs. How is it that people freely give advice when they can barely pass a SchH1 with their own dogs?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Well, the people I consider "internet experts" on the forum ARE successful - so......


 
How so? Who???? They are successful because?????


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zahnburg said:


> How is it that people freely give advice when they can barely pass a SchH1 with their own dogs?


This little rant sounds kind of personal rather than just general. Who are you referring to?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I think someone's got a stick up his butt.  What's wrong with giving advice? It's not like you have to follow it.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

There are a few people who post regularly who know exactly what they are talking about in regards to pedigrees (Cliff, Chris, Christine, Chuck, Daphene(sorry, I butchered your name!) and a few others), training (Chris, MRL, Caroline, Lies, Anne, etc) and health (LisaT, Ruth, etc.). 

I have seen results (titles, working their dogs successfully, recommended by people outside of the forums, have knowledge/experience in one field or another, etc.) and have talked to others who have first hand knowledge of these people as well.

When I have asked for advice (I do have people I go to who KNOW me and MY dog but I also like to be prepared and coming here asking questions and getting other opinions is helpful for that) I have always received sound, honest advice from these people which I can back up with information/advice I have been given by those who work with me or by my vet/holistic vet/etc. 

So to me, those are the people I consider "internet experts" and yes, if I could have half the knowledge and experience they have (and hope to one day since I am just starting out) then I will consider myself successful.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Hi Debbie,

No. Nothing personal. Just something that kind of bothers me. People can say so much on the internet, then you see their training....unbelievable.
I don't claim to be a great trainer, but I have posted (on several occassions) video of my trials. It seems strange to me that we never see video from those that proclaim to know the most.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> There are a few people who post regularly who know exactly what they are talking about in regards to pedigrees (Cliff, Chris, Christine, Chuck, Daphene(sorry, I butchered your name!) and a few others), training (Chris, MRL, Caroline, Lies, Anne, etc) and health (LisaT, Ruth, etc.).
> 
> I have seen results (titles, working their dogs successfully, recommended by people outside of the forums, have knowledge/experience in one field or another, etc.) and have talked to others who have first hand knowledge of these people as well.
> 
> ...


LOL Elisabeth! Exactly what I am talking about!!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Please elaborate. 

These people work their dogs and to me, are pretty dang good at what they do. At least in my eyes.

What YOU consider an expert and what I consider an expert may differ greatly as our experience/knowledge levels are worlds apart at this point in the game.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Please elaborate.
> 
> These people work their dogs and to me, are pretty dang good at what they do. At least in my eyes.
> 
> *What YOU consider an expert and what I consider an expert may differ greatly* as our experience/knowledge levels are worlds apart at this point in the game.


 Maybe this is the issue. 

A lot of people work their dogs, and a lot of people make SchH3; this is certainly not just cause to listen to them. I know more than a few folks who have SchH3 dogs that are absolute morons when it comes to training.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

And I agree with you Art, just because they have titles on their dogs doesn't make them an expert.

I know plenty of people who have many titles on their dogs who know NOTHING about anything.. including dog training!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

So, Elisabeth,

What makes you think a lot of these people that are giving advice here are different?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Elisabeth, you shouldn't have mentioned any names, sorta walked right into it . . .


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Most of the advice given by these people (the ones I have named) is backed up by people whom I trust, watched worked dogs, who have years of experience and were/are successful in their venues. 

I have also tried things they have suggested (mostly with increasing drives in my male or working with his reactivity issues - which are now completely gone) and have had great success myself. The things they have suggested worked - and continue to work over long periods of time.

I have also asked around to other people (some on the forum and others not) and I have heard nothing but praise and good things from them, their dogs, and their training.

Maybe I am naive but I trust them enough to ask and get their opinions, doesn't mean I will use it, but I will ask still.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Elisabeth, you shouldn't have mentioned any names, sorta walked right into it . . .


I realized that after it was too late to change it.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Elisabeth, you shouldn't have mentioned any names, sorta walked right into it . . .


What? Am I the bad guy? For questioning the obvious??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

At the same time, everything applies to Zahnburg too - Why does HE feel he is the expert in deciding who is an expert and who isn't? How do I know that he has titled any dogs, and how do I know if his training is any good? Just another internet expert,  

This wasn't a general comment, his question to you about the people you named, Elisabeth, pretty much shows that he was attacking someone in particular. 

Now, if he wanted to talk about Ed Frawley, that would be different!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Oh please Lucia! There is no need to be so defensive. As for your question, I have posted videoes of my dog. It is what it is. I don't claim to be any sort of an expert, I train my dogs, and I show the results that I get....more than you can say for most.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Most of the advice given by these people (the ones I have named) is backed up by people whom I trust, watched worked dogs, who have years of experience and were/are successful in their venues.
> 
> I have also tried things they have suggested (mostly with increasing drives in my male or working with his reactivity issues - which are now completely gone) and have had great success myself. The things they have suggested worked - and continue to work over long periods of time.
> 
> ...


I am sure that you will learn.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

The way I see it everyone has their strengths and weaknesses in any particular aspect of training. And at the same time different people have different methods/approaches to training certain things. So. If I have a question or concern regarding my dogs and I get advice from someone on this forum, and in my personal opinion I think the person sounds informed on whatever it is i'm asking about and offers a suggestion, and it's not going to hurt to try it.. why not? Who cares if they have a kennel full of SchH3 dogs or if this is their first venture into SchH and they may not have a ton of experience or titles to back up their claims.

Like with anything on the internet the person can take it with a grain of salt, and unless i've missed something I have yet to see someone on here claim to be an expert at anything. I'm here to learn, and welcome all opinions and advice, even if I don't end up using it or really agreeing with it.. that's the beauty of online forums I suppose.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Well I didn't barely pass my Sch I-didn't even come close to barely passing-and I won't be posting videos any time soon-so we should only listen to successful people-got any more advice for me


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Probably a start would be for me not to open my mouth-sometimes we do learn from failure-not always


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hey, if it works?! If I got advice, thought it didn't sound detrimental to the dog, had other people endorse its merit....tried it and it helped...where is the problem? I might not care so much how stupendous the persons particular dog was. 

What is this important learning about the horrors of internet advice that we are going to get? I think I have had some of the worst advice from successful people in person, actually! No matter what the source, you have to exercise your brain too.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Art I'll scan and post my score-books and you do the same.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Over the decades of working and having people learn fairly complex tasks, i found some things to often work. A lot of times the best teachers were those who had recently been in the learning mode themselves. Once they began to show some proficiency, they were genrrally good teachers. They were still in touch with the pitfalls the tasks present to the novice. They knew the step by step processes well as they had recently been immersed in the learning sequence. Often, they were able to relate to the new learner empathetically.

The staff with mastery were not always the best at instructing. They often skipped steps in processes. Now, this is not a bad thing because their deeper understanding allowed this facility to work in still getting the desired outcome(often quickly). The skills were also so much a part of them that could not relate them as well to te novice.

Those with mastery were more intuitive. Great dog trainers become the same. They read dogs without having to think about it consiously. They appear to just "know" what to do. Unfortunately, these important abilitues are built with intelligence interacting with the work over time and can't be taught as easily. Those with mastery are useful to the new learner, but in different ways.

I find the same in dog training. As long as the person has learned good principles and spent time diligently working, though they might not be masterful, they can be effectively instructive! They are still close enough to the learning progression to relate it well to the novice.

JME, of course. Not an expert.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't see where posting video's has a whole lot to do with anything? Most people will only post what looks good anyway.
Does anyone want to watch Karlo run blinds(or not run them) while he is learning that exercise? I doubt it, it isn't pretty.

Training videos/trial videos.....I'd rather watch a training sequence(retrieve, send out or blind search) and learn the different techniques than watch an obedience or protection trial video. 

I was at a seminar last weekend and both of the instructors even had different theories on training a few of the exercises(and they train together regularly & are very good friends). 
What works for one dog may not for another, so different tried & true methods are encouraged!
I like to read_ experienced_ trainers ways of training, without the access we do have to the internet experts, life would be very different.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Great another one of those threads where someone posts 100-99-99 and is so upset that they lost a couple of points for those crooked sits-I mean doesn't your heart just go out to those people-


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I did not notice anyone mentioning points lost? 

I have really enjoyed learning from Anne on the lousy internet source board here. Had I listened more, could have saved myself some trips to trainers with impressivee score books in my area! ( course in this case Anne has had some decent scores on dogs she trained at times).Really enjoyed my trips to CA and MI to learn more also. Actually,some invaluable learning by way of this board. I am thinking the internet is not so bad myself.

Have seen folks with nice score books. They all had somethimg to offer in some area! But, it is not always all good. Some of it down right detrimental. Did learn a lot about who to have choose me a high dollar, well-trained, titled dog to import and get me on the podium should I desire such.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know how many people on here REALLY listen to the "internet experts" and take what they say as gospel and directly apply it to training? I know I've gotten a lot of info from just having conversations and bouncing ideas off of people on here...but it doesn't mean I'm running off to my trainer and saying "so and so said such and such and I think that's better than what we're doing with my dog now so I'm changing it."

I'm probably one of those wanna be internet experts myself that you're talking about lol. I like to have conversations sometimes that are way beyond my training and experience level. But I think it always gives me some food for thought in the next training session or next time I see a dog being worked. And although I'm inexperienced, I've been able to attend some really great seminars with a wide variety of people in a lot of different dog sports...if I see X issue being addressed and solved in a successful manner and someone here has a similar issue...and I share an idea about the similar issue and what I saw work for someone else...........I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't really see people taking me seriouly. HOWEVER, it doesn't hurt for me to say something even if a conversation ensues that makes me look stuplid lol. Because something was probably learned at the end. But, I also don't think I misrepresent myself either....and sometimes that is the biggest problem on these forums I think...are people who say or imply things they have not actually done.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I don't know how many people on here REALLY listen to the "internet experts" and take what they say as gospel and directly apply it to training? I know I've *gotten a lot of info from just having conversations and bouncing ideas off of people on here...but it doesn't mean I'm running off to my trainer and saying "so and so said such and such and I think that's better than what we're doing with my dog now so I'm changing it*."
> 
> I'm probably one of those wanna be internet experts myself that you're talking about lol. I like to have conversations sometimes that are way beyond my training and experience level. But I think it always gives me some food for thought in the next training session or next time I see a dog being worked. And although I'm inexperienced, I've been able to attend some really great seminars with a wide variety of people in a lot of different dog sports...if I see X issue being addressed and solved in a successful manner and someone here has a similar issue...and I share an idea about the similar issue and what I saw work for someone else...........I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't really see people taking me seriouly. HOWEVER, it doesn't hurt for me to say something even if a conversation ensues that makes me look stuplid lol. Because something was probably learned at the end. But, I also don't think I misrepresent myself either....and sometimes that is the biggest problem on these forums I think...are people who say or imply things they have not actually done.


This is exactly what I do - come here and get a different point of view so I can ask questions with those who actually work my dogs and "train me" in the real world.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Never asked for SchH advice because I don't do SchH but when looking for advice, or even just reading the advice from someone else's question, I base credibility on a few things...

1) Does their advice make sense!?
2) What are their credentials? Do they have anything public (such as a website or postings to prove they have competed) that can prove they have done what they said they are going to do?
3) Are they some new person that just popped up?

However, I have yet to find any piece of advice that fit my dog 100%. There is always something I need to do to adjust to Jax's personality/temperament. And often I've found it's just better to ask my trainer the questions of "how to's" because many people jump in on a question with "expert advice" that makes no sense to me.

I like to read a lot of these threads because I do learn a lot from the discussions, as Justine posted, and it raises more questions that I often take back to my trainer.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Most people post their ideas about what has worked for them. When someone asks, "how do you teach this?" most people will say, "this is how I do it." It is then up to the handler to pick through what they read and decide what works best for their dog. I would do this no matter who the person was giving the advice. 

I went to a seminar with some rather successful German handlers this spring. I also got to watch them train and discuss training with them while I was in Germany in March. They had some really cool ideas, some which were very original (something that is pretty rare) that I have played around with to use in my own training. Some I will use and some I won't for various reasons. IMO this is how all training advice should be looked at whether coming from an expert or coming from someone on a message board.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zahnburg said:


> Why would one seek and apply the advice from a person who knows how to fix all your problems on the internet, but has never produced any actual results?


See, this still sounds to me like it's about someone in particular. Is this person actually proclaiming THEMSELVES a expert, or does it just chaff your hide that other people are responding to him/her as if s/he IS an expert? And if people are not treating this "internet expert advice" as the gospel of dog training, but rather as a jumping off point - something new to try, ideas to bounce off others at their club, as Justine said, what's wrong with that?

I don't do Schutzhund, but I read a lot of the threads because they're interesting and I like to learn, and HAVE learned quite a bit. I watch a lot of the training videos and the discussions that follow from them. Some of the training techniques can be useful in a general way, not just for Schutzhund, and I often pick up great tips that way. As Samba said, if it sounded good, wasn't detrimental to the dog, other people had tried it and it worked for them, what's the harm in trying it? I don't care if the person is an actual expert, an internet expert, or no expert at all but simply learning, like me, they may have a perspective that never occurred to me before that I might find useful.

And I love Samba's point about people in the learning phase being closer to the step by step process of training a skill, and as such can often better communicate that to others than someone who has an intuitive mastery of dog behavior and training. That's a gross generalization, of course and doesn't apply to everyone, but just because someone is a highly skilled trainer that does not necessarily mean that they are going to be the best at teaching that skill to someone else. Knowing how to do something and teaching someone else to do it don't always go hand in hand because they don't involve the same skill set.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lhczth said:


> Most people post their ideas about what has worked for them. When someone asks, "how do you teach this?" most people will say, "this is how I do it." It is then up to the handler to pick through what they read and decide what works best for their dog. I would do this no matter who the person was giving the advice.


:thumbup:


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> But, I also don't think I misrepresent myself either....and sometimes that is the biggest problem on these forums I think...are people who say or imply things they have not actually done.


You nailed it. And this goes to Onyx's question about the importance of video; it is a bit harder to misrepresent your self when people can see what you are actually doing (or not doing). 

Again Debbie, it is a general observation and not about anyone in particular. And it plays out again and again on the internet.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Well, my video's suck and I KNOW I am a bad trainer (for now.. lol) so I am definitely no "internet expert".  My poor dogs are stuck with me as their handler... poor, poor dogs.. lol.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Well, my video's suck and I KNOW I am a bad trainer (for now.. lol) so I am definitely no "internet expert".  My poor dogs are stuck with me as their handler... poor, poor dogs.. lol.


 But this is my point. You COULD be an internet expert! Everyone can! No experience required, just read a book or watch a video and type about it on the internet.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Can you link to some threads where you've seen this happening?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Can you link to some threads where you've seen this happening?


No, because then it is no longer general; is it?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think regardless of the subject there are internet experts. Go to the health and food sections...you'll find tons of people. Rescue and breeding? Many people who have read a few threads, never rescued or bred, and they are answering like they've been doing it for years. Been to an agility lesson? Expert! I went to the Masters Tournament for Schutzhund a few weeks ago. So I"m an expert now! Not! But I went away with tons of questions.

So this is indeed a general topic.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zahnburg said:


> No, because then it is no longer general; is it?


Aha! :rofl: oke:


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Still not about any one person Debbie. It happens all the time. I am sure you could find 100 different threads with 100 different internet experts. Jax seems to know of a few.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> Jax seems to know of a few.


That's cuz I'm an expert on experts.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> That's cuz I'm an expert on experts.


That would be expert on *"*experts*." *


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

now I Have to say Elizabeth, your videos don't suck I enjoy watching them, seeing you and your dogs progress..

I lean towards what Lisa said,,I think if someone asks a question, and one answers,atleast for me, I am always about "what I would do or have done is"..and hey if they want to try it, fine, if not, fine to..

I do see alot of diversity with answers at times, and well you can believe them or not I guess


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

You must have read a book Jax, that qualifies a lot of folks as experts. 

Allow me to clarify one thing, I have absolutely no problem with anyone responding to a question or giving their advice no matter what level of experience they have. 
However, I think it is wrong for folks to hold theirselves out to be much more than what they are, and to allow people to think they are getting advice from a knowledgable and experienced trainer when in fact they are not. 
It is like that song from Brad Paisley "I train so much better online"


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Art I definately agree with you, and I love Brad Paisley's video, he does make some hilarious ones


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I will gladly listen to, and ask for advise from anyone willing to give it. This doesn't mean I am going to put that advice in practice. I take in as much advice as I can, weigh it's credibility appropriately, and draw my own conclusions and practice that


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Art, didn't we have this conversation recently?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't do schutzhund so I'm not even a novice but sometimes I learn from these threads. Not this one though. Art thinks there are lots of people who misrepresent themselves as experts. Then they give advice. If you are knowledegable enough to recognize that they are misrepresenting themselves then ignore them and move on. It's the internet.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I guess, look out for trainin' posers!

I do know this, I am not medically treating my dog from the internet!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hunter Jack said:


> I don't do schutzhund so I'm not even a novice but sometimes I learn from these threads. Not this one though. Art thinks there are lots of people who misrepresent themselves as experts. Then they give advice. If you are knowledegable enough to recognize that they are misrepresenting themselves then ignore them and move on. It's the internet.


I think Art's point is a LOT of people are NOT knowledgeable enough to recognize this and get the impresion that people have accomplished a certain set of things because of implied or outright lied experiences. Sometimes they can be a bit convincing...

The point of the thread is a "buyer beware" type thing, and to engage in conversation as to how you pick someone to listen to on the internet. There haven't been many biters, though...I know they are out there ducking behind their computers though :rofl:


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I personally have gotten great advice from your so-called internet experts and when applied showed immediate improvement in that area. To me, that is results. I'll remember who gave this advice and pay more attention to what that person says in the future.

Just like any other advice, you have to judge for yourself what's worth its weight and what should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Couple points...

I don't know about other people, but I don't get my info from just one source. I ask my TD, club members, read, talk on the forum... then decide what is best for me and my dog. So what is the harm in listening to multiple veiwpoints, some experienced, some not?

Sure, I would rather hear from an expert or someone with a lot of experience, but most rarely ever post on newbie questions.

It is sometimes nice to hear/see what other people at my level are doing, and even if they haven't titled yet, they are learning from somewhere.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Absolutely nothing wrong with that Amy; but that is not what I am saying here. 
For instance I will give a somewhat extreme example: Let's say you are having trouble with the stand, and I give you some advice. Now let us suppose that I have never taught a stand, heck, let's say I have never owned a dog BUT I have misled you into thinking I am, I don't know, Ronny van den Berghe. It is a little different getting advice from Ronny than it is getting advice from Joe down the street who has never held a leash, don't you think? 
Further more, I see all these folks saying "well I can weigh the credibility of the responses" No, you really can not. If you do not know then you do not know, and if you knew then you would not be asking strangers who have never seen your dog or training what to do.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Art, you have a point. The only thing that you do not take into account is that people simply like to talk about dogs, training, etc., and often come to this forum just to talk dogs, no actions attached


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

We once had a member here that had thousands of posts, most of them giving advice on everything from training issues to food. I was in awe of this person's ability to read something and regurgitate the info as their own.

They had at that time never, never, never owned a dog.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with that Amy; but that is not what I am saying here.
> For instance I will give a somewhat extreme example: Let's say you are having trouble with the stand, and I give you some advice. Now let us suppose that I have never taught a stand, heck, let's say I have never owned a dog BUT I have misled you into thinking I am, I don't know, Ronny van den Berghe. It is a little different getting advice from Ronny than it is getting advice from Joe down the street who has never held a leash, don't you think?
> Further more, I see all these folks saying "well I can weigh the credibility of the responses" No, you really can not. If you do not know then you do not know, and if you knew then you would not be asking strangers who have never seen your dog or training what to do.


I agree with what you are saying. That is why I am leery of advice from people who don't post about their dogs, or experience, or anything. Also, why I am overly cautious about repeating that I am new or saying that I am not an experts when I post responses. It probably gets annoying, but I don't want to misrepresent myself. 

But, I think even as a new person that hasn't titled a dog yet, I can still talk about what I am learning, things I have tried... Many times I am just parroting what my club members teach me anyway.

I just really never saw "Internet experts" as that huge of an issue. I think that when you post on a forum you have a certain expectation. You know that you are going to get answers from a variety of people. Plus, you start to learn who people are either by reputation or by meeting them and it is a good way to connect with people you otherwise wouldn't get a chance to connect with.

With me, sometimes it isn't about getting advice. If there is something that I REALLY need to learn, I talk about it at my club. That is why I joined it.

Sometimes just want to talk about dogs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Betty said:


> We once had a member here that had thousands of posts, most of them giving advice on everything from training issues to food. I was in awe of this person's ability to read something and regurgitate the info as their own.
> 
> They had at that time never, never, never owned a dog.


Do you have to have a dog to give training advice? And are you supposed to credit who you learned a training technique from-I am guessing that people who taught me certain training techniques learned them somewhere else-maybe not It doesn't matter that much to me-if it works I'm glad they shared it


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

I know helpers that have titled few dogs or even none of their own...but are great at reading and training dogs in protection. I know of hundreds of people who have titled many dogs that do not have a clue on how to develop a protection program. So, number of dogs titled does not equal knowledge...at least in protection.

The net is where many beginners come to get information when they first get started. I know I did.....no one to help where else can you turn? You go to the net for any other question in life....why not dogs? That is what a public forum is about.

some people do have experience and do give good advice, whether it is to help people, sell puppies or make themselves feel good.....it doesnt matter they are still giving advice.

Even if they do have experience, titled dogs and are giving what some consider good advice...I know I could find at leat three people within a day that will swear the experienced person does it all wrong.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I guess I'm lucky since I'm married to someone who is a great helper and has titled multiple dogs to SchH3. But, I still like to read training advice here. Sometimes I feel like we get stuck in a training vacuum since we work together as a club all the time but rarely get to venture out. I will find good videos online of a technique or see an interesting article and will discuss it with my husband. I know I don't have to follow the pack, so to speak, so it's up to me what I do in the end, right?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

holland said:


> Do you have to have a dog to give training advice? And are you supposed to credit who you learned a training technique from-I am guessing that people who taught me certain training techniques learned them somewhere else-maybe not It doesn't matter that much to me-if it works I'm glad they shared it


For me I like getting advice from people with experience. <Shrug>


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LOL Betty - I remember that person too....and when she did finally get a dog - what a total absolute disaster!!!! Had no clue how to deal with or train the dog....

That aside, there is a saying - a a T-shirt!

The only thing 2 trainers agree on is that the 3rd trainer is wrong.

Lee


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

wolfstraum said:


> LOL Betty - I remember that person too....and when she did finally get a dog - what a total absolute disaster!!!! Had no clue how to deal with or train the dog....
> 
> That aside, there is a saying - a a T-shirt!
> 
> ...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

On the flip side you can give spot on advice and fail utterly at applying your own advice in your own life. That happens all the time with interpersonal relationships, finance, etc. 

For example, I can tell you all to never ever let yourself get frustrated in front of the dog during training b/c your demeanor with change, the dog will pick up on it, and the training will suffer... doesn't mean I don't sometimes get frustrated, or keep training when ideally the training should be put shelved for the day. 

Giving good advice is not nearly as hard as following good advice


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> The only thing that you do not take into account is that people simply like to talk about dogs, training, etc., and often come to this forum just to talk dogs, no actions attached


This is how I approach it. I just like to jabber about dogs and training (or any of the other things I'm interested in....I'm not some anti-social dog lady!). It is not a penis measuring contest for me. No one has to read/listen or try anything and likewise I hope no one is seriously offended if I roll my eyes or laugh at their posts. I spend a lot of time on the computer for the jobs that I do and while I'm multi-tasking or on a break I read dog forums. So what. As for who I am and what my dogs accomplish, well I use my real name and my dogs are in my sig. If people read more or less into that, not much I can do.

I do believe that in general, many people are very good at instructing others and helping to problem solve without results. Before I owned dogs I did gymnastics competitively. Some of the best coaches are ones that never got very far. The best gymnastics coach I ever personally had was a high school math teacher that played tennis. I didn't care, I told him what I wanted to do and he helped make it possible. So even "in real life" I do not limit who I listen to only to those that compete nationally or have multiple SchH3 club dogs. On the contrary I've met several people who seem to consider themselves experts that you couldn't pay me to train with.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think he's saying you can't get advice or listen to what people are saying. When I first started it was also about the time the interent was getting bigger with message boards in the late 90's early 2000's. I was enamoured with a few internet peronsalities. I read everything they wrote and couldn't wait to get a dog and do all these things, because I was learning everything. 

Could even regurgitate a few bits myself  on my way to being an expert. Then I actually started training, learned I didn't know that much. paper (screens) and the training field are a lot different. 

Then I actually met some of these people and saw their dogs and realized I really needed to temper the images of people I had formed by reading on the interent. I do like to still listen and read to what people have to say, but what I take out of it has seriously changed over the years.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Another component is time. I think I spend about ten times as much time online messing around than training my dogs. And that's not to say the dogs need MORE training or that I don't spend enough time training, but that there's really only so much quality training you can do in one day, and I do see my dogs as my companions and not robots or something to get medals and pictures on a podium. Sometimes I read/watch/discuss things online I never had any intention of doing with my dogs. Yesterday my dad and I were joking about a dog surfing contest that was on TV.

Sometimes I feel that the problem is not so much that there are internet experts or people misrepresenting themselves, but that too many people sell themselves short. Having fun training dogs and earning titles along the way is not and should not be rocket science. As long as the dog is enjoying it and you are there to advocate for your dog there's no reason a newbie can't get decent results training their dog and can't engage in good discussion about training.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The advice I heed almost without question is the advice of those few who instruct me how to do something, I try in front of them and it doesn't work, they take the lead and say "watch", and my dog magically becomes flawless, and then the process repeats for a while until I can pinpoint the subtle cause of my failure.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Betty said:


> We once had a member here that had thousands of posts, most of them giving advice on everything from training issues to food. I was in awe of this person's ability to read something and regurgitate the info as their own.
> 
> They had at that time never, never, never owned a dog.


I think I know who you're talking about, and that first dog the person got was a rescue that ended up getting sent back because s/he couldn't handle it. It's not even that the advice was so terrible, it's just that it's easy to think you're an expert when it's all theory and you've never had to actually apply it and see how it works in reality. I gather it was a humbling experience for him/her....


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

crackem said:


> I don't think he's saying you can't get advice or listen to what people are saying. When I first started it was also about the time the interent was getting bigger with message boards in the late 90's early 2000's. I was enamoured with a few internet peronsalities. I read everything they wrote and couldn't wait to get a dog and do all these things, because I was learning everything.
> 
> Could even regurgitate a few bits myself  on my way to being an expert. Then I actually started training, learned I didn't know that much. paper (screens) and the training field are a lot different.
> 
> Then I actually met some of these people and saw their dogs and realized I really needed to temper the images of people I had formed by reading on the interent. I do like to still listen and read to what people have to say, but what I take out of it has seriously changed over the years.


:thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> I don't think he's saying you can't get advice or listen to what people are saying. When I first started it was also about the time the interent was getting bigger with message boards in the late 90's early 2000's. I was enamoured with a few internet peronsalities. I read everything they wrote and couldn't wait to get a dog and do all these things, because I was learning everything.
> 
> Could even regurgitate a few bits myself  on my way to being an expert. Then I actually started training, learned I didn't know that much. paper (screens) and the training field are a lot different.
> 
> Then I actually met some of these people and saw their dogs and realized I really needed to temper the images of people I had formed by reading on the interent. I do like to still listen and read to what people have to say, but what I take out of it has seriously changed over the years.


I know of a few such people (on other forums). They call themselves "behaviorists" and might have degrees in animal behavior but have never actually titled a dog to do anything yet they always seem to attract a flock of followers. They can train a dog to do a bunch of tricks but have never put it to the test under the pressure of a trial. They usually offer the same one-size-fits-all solution regardless of a dog's breed or the owner's level of experience. I've seen many of the "positive only" pet training type people unknowlingly put way more pressure on a dog in ways I am not comfortable with (and my SchH club decided I was the biggest hard-a in our club).


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think we can learn something everyday from others....even if it's what "not" to do.
I enjoy listening to the "experiences & opinions" of others, even if I don't share in their ideals.....I still learn something. *I don't post much regarding these topics*.
With some of the advice...I've actually learned "why" some problems are/have become so common recently....
*Read and learn...is my opinion*


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## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

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My buddy however is amazing at schutzhund over 450 schutzhund titles!!!! Show some love on facebook, search for top schutzhund training or visit his site at topschutzhundtraining.com

Thanks and I appreciate it, helping him as he has helped our dog out immensely!!!


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