# Confused and Frustrated....



## JillyBean40 (Nov 8, 2011)

Hello everyone. Our pup Thunder (21 Weeks old) has been having an issue with diarrhea recently, and also came down with a rash under his armpits and on his belly. The rash (according to our vet) turns out was caused by a bacterial infection, that he is now being treated for with Keflex, etc..and is starting to clear up. 

The reason for my post today is about his diet. I have been feeding Thunder Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy Chicken & Rice formula since we brought him home at 7 1/2 weeks. The breeder had him on Eukanuba originally. That transition started out with some diarrhea, but eventually got better. His poo however has never been all that consistent on the BB. Most times it's been formed "enough", but still has a bit of softness to it, and other times very mushy, which only happens every couple of days or so. Then within the last couple of weeks it has been consistent diarrhea each and every time. I tried switching him to a bland diet (boiled chicken & white rice), which helped. When I transitioned slowly back to his BB, the diarrhea started all over again. We had all the tests down for parasites, etc. and they've come back clean. Our vet said that he has seen many cases where BB dog food has caused the same issues, and advised me to switch his food. Here's the kicker....he suggested Purina Pro Plan as a good alternative. Stating that it has all healthy ingredients and as far as he knew has never had a recall...etc.

After researching online and on this site, I know that food is crap. Of course I didn't try and argue with the guy. He's the type that has no personality...interacts better with my dog than I. I did agree though that the BB was probably too rich for Thunder so I decided to transition him to something else. I ended up settling on Wellness Super5Mix Whitefish and Sweet Potato. I picked this because it is a limited ingredient food that is supposed to help with dogs with sensitive stomach, etc. After a few days of gradually switching over, there was no change. The diarrhea was still happening. I read online that a 24 hour fast and then another bout of the bland diet would help, but because he's on the meds (that have to be taken with food), I skipped the 24 hour fast and just started giving him boiled chicken breast and white rice again. That was 4 days ago. Since then his poo's have firmed up, and I am now slowly adding the Wellness in. I've so far only added 10 pieces of the kibble for the last two feedings. So far so good. 

Here is why I am confused. I have been corresponding with the dog trainer that we use...keeping him up to date on how Thunder's doing. He's the one who noticed the rash, etc. When I told him about the diarrhea and what I was doing to help the situation, he asked me what foods I was trying. Below is part of his response. I really like this guy and respect his opinions. He is really wonderful with Thunder. I guess that is why I feel like I do right now. Oh, and just so you know, he was a vet tech for quite a few years before becoming a trainer.

_"I'm not a big fan of the newer exotic/"natural" foods that are being advertised as high quality foods because they're typically filled with a bunch of ingredients they don't need. For example, the sweet potato is filled with ingredients dogs do not need. Sweet potatoes (dogs are strictly carnivores and do not benefit from any nutritional value from this), fruits and veggies (again, dogs are strictly carnivores and fruits and veggies can actually have a toxicity for dogs), fish (naturally, dogs would not be able to eat fish, they hunt mammals), and its full of supplements rather than nutrients from a real food source, and it also has taurine which dogs have absolutely no use for at all. Taurine is a nutrient in a cats diet which is also in red bull, its what gives them the energy to be nocturnal and I personally have no idea why they'd put it in there especially since it can also have a toxicity in dogs. Brands like Iams, Purina, eukanuba, hills science diet are all researched and developed to have all they need and nothing they don't and are all very high quality foods with hills science diet being the absolute best. Also, a formula for large breed dogs would be a really good idea because they're formulated for their bones to grow slower and more safely and usually have some form of glucosamine which helps promote healthy joints (think of it as anti-hip dysplasia) which is specifically important since his breed is prone to orthopedic problems."_

So my trainer and my vet are apparently on the same page about nutrition, but is the opposite of what I've read here and other sites online. Why is there such a divide? If it's true about the sweet potato & fish, etc... then should I continue trying the Wellness or switch to something else? I am so confused!!


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Honestly, it sounds like your trainer doesn't really know any more than your vet. First off, dogs are _not_ strictly carnivores. Though the diet of wild dogs and wolves is primarily meat, they also feed on grasses, berries, roots, etc. Second, how can your trainer possibly justify the statement that Iams, Eukanuba, Purina, etc. contain everything that a dog needs and nothing it doesn't when there is far less meat in those foods than in most if not all of the 'boutique' brands. The first listed ingredients in those foods are almost invariably corn based, with meat usually being in a generic meal form that many times does not even contain a specific animal that it derives from.

Not that a dog can't do well on Iams, Purina, Science Diet, etc. On the contrary, many dogs thrive on those foods. But to say that they are better than the more expensive foods which contain far more actual meat is simply a crock.


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## Jazmeena (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with Ken about the food! One thing to also consider at this point - is that the antibiotic for the rash can also cause diarrhea - just keep that in mind. There have been a LOT of posts about Blue Buffalo stools that are not fully firm/soft, and we just switched ours from Blue Buffalo as well for that same reason. She didnt have diarrhea, and stools for "formed" about 70% of the time but still very soft and mushy.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the wellness brand has had some problems with quality control lately. please try pinnacle trout and sweet potatoe made by breeder's choice. (as far as i know), this food has never been on a recall list or had any quality problems. the ingredients are also very high quality. my registered shepherds have always been on it, but when i REALLY saw what it could do for a dog was when i began doing rescue ('07), and saw the unbelievable change in coats, skin, body odor (NONE!), stools (smaller tootsie roll stools), and brightness in the eyes. a very well respected (and veterinary connected), michigan breeder turned me on to this food. if you have to feed kibble, this is some of the very best. your trainer is WAY BEHIND on being educated about the nutritional value and quality of ingredients of all those foods he talks about. pretty well known nowadays that they are junk.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Your trainer is an idiot. Dogs are omnivores, not strict carnivores, and do benefit from sweet potatoes, fruits and veggies, and fish. Taurine is an amino acid for the heart. It's true that dogs can and do make their own taurine, but there are a number of dogs that don't make enough and that's why it's added.

There are a number of reasons your pup isn't doing well on the kibble you are feeding. He may need a lower fat content, a higher or lower fiber content, or he may be sensitive to some of the ingredients in it. All things to consider when trying something else.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

As Jazmeena said, antibiotics can cause diarrhea. Try offering some probiotics to support healthy gut flora.

On the other hand, I don't agree that Iams, Eukanuba or Pro Plan are "crap". Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach formula is quite popular among the EPI/SIBO community, why? Because it's EASY ON THE STOMACH. Many dogs end up with a lot of problems because people read on the internet and then jump on the "high quality" foods that get 5 stars on review sites written by people who have no education whatsoever in anything animal, such as the human dentist who runs Dog Review Advisor. Not to say higher quality foods are bad in general but I think people need to get their heads out of their rear and start doing what is right for their dogs. If you are feeding a food and it's causing diarrhea, stop trying to "wait it out" or switch to another rich food that continues the diarrhea and refuse to think outside of the box. (Just as if someone was feeding a cheap food and the dog was doing bad, they should be open to trying a better food) Some dogs simple DON'T do well on super expensive/"high quality" foods. And the trainer is right, Hills, Purina, Iams/Eukanuba, ect have been tested for dozens of generations vs. many of the newer foods.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

well the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. try the pinnacle. unless i miss my guess, you'll see for yourself.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Pinnacle is a good food, but that doesn't mean it's going to be the best food for every dog. The proof could be pudding...pudding poops.  Doesn't hurt to try it but for people to claim x food is the "best", be it Science Diet, Orijen, Pinnacle, Taste of the Wild, Kirkland, whatever is ridiculous.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Dogs are not omnivores; they are opportunistic carnivores. Yes, there is a difference. 

Also, it is my opinion that Purina, Science Diet, Iams, and Eukaneuba (amongst others) make mostly crap, especially for the price on some of these brands. Might as well feed Ol' Roy; same quality but actually charges what they're worth.  Not saying you need to feed top of the line, but there are many other foods at a similar price point with much better ingredients.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Verivus said:


> Dogs are not omnivores; they are opportunistic carnivores. Yes, there is a difference.
> 
> Also, it is my opinion that Purina, Science Diet, Iams, and Eukaneuba (amongst others) make mostly crap, especially for the price on some of these brands. Might as well feed Ol' Roy; same quality but actually charges what they're worth.  Not saying you need to feed top of the line, but there are many other foods at a similar price point with much better ingredients.


I just love Food Nazis. :crazy:

*Ol' Roy Complete Nutrition*
Ground yellow corn, meat and bone meal, soybean meal, chicken by-product meal, wheat middlings, animal fat [preserved with BHA and citric acid], natural flavor, brewers rice, salt, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, color added [red #40, yellow #5, blue #2], zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex [source of vitamin K activity], riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate

*Ol' Roy Kibbles N' Chews*
Ground Yellow Corn, Soybean Meal, Whole Wheat, Beef Meal, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Animal Fat (Preserved With Bha), Chicken By-Product Meal, Water, Corn Gluten Meal, Propylene Glycol, Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vegetable Pomace (Carrot, Celery, Beet, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach), Dried Beet Pulp, Brewers Rice, Potassium Sorbate (A Preservative), Calcium Carbonate, Carboxymethyl Cellulose, Iron Oxide, Titanium Dixoide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Artificial Color (Red # 40, Yellow # 5 & 6, Blue # 2), Zinc Sulfate, Cheese Powder, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Manganese Sulfate, Garlic, Copper Sulfate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Monitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Folic Acid.

vs.

*Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach*
Salmon, brewers rice, canola meal, oat meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), salmon meal (natural source of glucosamine), pearled barley, brewers dried yeast, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.	

*Pro Plan Natural Selects Chicken & Brown Rice*
Chicken, barley, dried egg product, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine), brewers dried yeast, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), brown rice, oat meal, pea protein, dried beet pulp, natural flavor, fish oil, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, dried tomatoes, dried carrots, dried sweet potatoes, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, DL-Methionine, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. 

*Iams Simple & Natural Chicken, Rice & Barley*
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Monosodium Phosphate, Salt, Dried Apple Pomace, Dried Carrots, DL-Methionine, Dried Peas, Choline Chloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Dried Spinach, Dried Tomatoes, Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, Brewers Dried Yeast, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

*Purina One Beyond Chicken & Whole Oatmeal*
Chicken, chicken meal, whole oat meal, whole barley, soybean meal, whole brown rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), dried beet pulp, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, caramel color, salt, dried carrots, dried tomatoes, dried apples, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

*Purina One Beyond Lamb & Whole Barley*
Lamb, chicken meal, whole barley, whole brown rice, whole oat meal, soybean meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, dried beet pulp, natural flavor, fish oil, salt, caramel color, whole blueberries, dried sweet potatoes, dried spinach, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

*Eukanuba Pure Adult*
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Natural Flavor, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Fructooligosaccharides, Monosodium Phosphate, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, Brewers Dried Yeast, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

And just to throw out another "grocery store" brand which is actually a very very reasonable price...

*Rachel Ray Just 6 Lamb Meal & Rice*
Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Natural Chicken Flavor, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Folic Acid.

Obviously the same quality as Ol' Roy, amIright?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

of course, no food is for every dog. no food is the "best" food. one can only recommend what one has seen really good results with _all_ the dogs _they've_ ever fed it to.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

katieliz said:


> of course, no food is for every dog. no food is the "best" food. one can only recommend what one has seen really good results with _all_ the dogs _they've_ ever fed it to.


That's why I like REAL "tried and true" opinions over review sites. :thumbup: I don't mean to come off as rude or anything. Like I said, Pinnacle is a good food if it's something they want to try, one I too would recommend. Your first post just came off as "it's the best".


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

ive come to learn that what works for one dog wont work for another.Years ago my vet reccomended pro plan for my shepherd..he said it was good food at a good price..so thats what i gave him and all my fosters for 14 years..never had a problem and everyone was healthy and fit and happy. Now when i just got my new puppy i too read so much stuff online and reviews etc that my head started spinning ....and it made me think back to the days when i was a kid and my dogs were given some alpo kibble and a can or 2 of alpo a day..and those dogs too lived forever...of course im not saying i would ever feed my dogs alpo todaybut i still go by the rule of looking at the first ingredeints and making sure they are real meat


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Lol, yes I do hate food Nazis.


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## MsMailbawx (Jan 5, 2012)

I am new here and probably just speaking out my butt, BUT i would like to say that IAMS is a food my family have fed our dogs. My dog elvis was on IAMS for years, and had a gleaming coat and was in great shape overall on the food (and with exercise, obviously) Ryker (My Shepherd) is now on IAMS and I am having the same results with him, I always get compliments on how wonderful his coat is and his stools are well formed. Im not saying IAMS is the only way to go, I am just saying that just because the almighty internet says that all these holistic foods are the way to go, DOES NOT MEAN they are the only way to go.  Every dog is different, there is no cookie cutter dog food, or one size fits all. but just because its holistic and 65.00 buck-o's doesnt mean its better then IAMS or any other brand you can find for 30.00 at a regular supply store like Target or Walmart. as for your trainer, I dont think he was right about saying that all dogs eat is meat, and vets arent really qualified to tell you what to feed your pet, although i would trust a vet more then myself haha. good luck with thunder  I am sure this will all sort out!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks Chance GSD . I never even thought of some of these.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

The trainer is clueless. 

Unless you want to feed raw, your dog will have to get some kind of filler (starch) since it's what holds the kibble together. Or they do make dehydrated foods but those are super expensive. It's funny that the trainer says dogs are carnivores but he pushes foods that have the least amount of actual meat in them!

It's about filler quality...corn is terrible, and is one that I believe is used in SD, and the other cheap foods. It is not very digestible and is one thing many dogs are allergic to. Better quality foods use better quality fillers, like sweet potato.


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## JillyBean40 (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow! Thanks so much everyone for all the replies, opinions & advice. Although there were a lot of different stances on this subject, I must say that I am less frustrated than I was when I originally started this thread. Seems like I'm not the only one who feels like my head is spinning about what to feed my dog. Thanks again!


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

i used to feed BB and had a lot of soft stool because of it, but it made their coast so shiney, i have since switched to kirkland which i believe is wilderness, i know they have had some quality issues in a few states but until anything comes to my end ill stay with them. The dogs like it and its made them have perfect poop and nice coats.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

phgsd said:


> The trainer is clueless.
> 
> Unless you want to feed raw, your dog will have to get some kind of filler (starch) since it's what holds the kibble together. Or they do make dehydrated foods but those are super expensive. It's funny that the trainer says dogs are carnivores but he pushes foods that have the least amount of actual meat in them!
> 
> It's about filler quality...corn is terrible, and is one that I believe is used in SD, and the other cheap foods. It is not very digestible and is one thing many dogs are allergic to. Better quality foods use better quality fillers, like sweet potato.


THis!!^^^^


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## Vaks (Dec 30, 2011)

Verivus said:


> Dogs are not omnivores; they are opportunistic carnivores.


:thumbup:

Hélène xx


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