# Trainers what do you think of a thundershirt for a puppy?



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

What do you all think of using a thunder shirt on a scared puppy? Do you think it might help?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

No. Stop with the gimmicks and get a trainer. 

Be prepared to accept that you might just have an unstable nervy dog that can only be managed. Not everything can be fixed.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Waste of money. You'll have much better luck just working with a good trainer who can help counter condition stimulus that make the puppy fearful.


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## GSD_x2 (May 22, 2014)

Lots of yummy treats is the cure I know of


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

simba405 said:


> No. Stop with the gimmicks and get a trainer.
> 
> Be prepared to accept that you might just have an unstable nervy dog that can only be managed. Not everything can be fixed.


The trainer is suggesting the thunder shirt.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GSD_x2 said:


> Lots of yummy treats is the cure I know of


Been there done that for 3 months.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Pax8 said:


> Waste of money. You'll have much better luck just working with a good trainer who can help counter condition stimulus that make the puppy fearful.


A trainer is suggesting a thunder shirt. That is why I asked.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Get a new trainer. A trainer should help you with your dog. Not slap some gimmick on it. 

Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer.....


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

No coddling, thundershirts or whatever else. Get the dog out there and expose it to everything. Every day take him somewhere new. Do not let him runaway or shut down. Whether its stairs or walking through a city he has no choice unless you give him one.
If after that he still does not get better PTS and next time buy from a breeder that knows what they are doing and offers a temperment / health guarentee. If by 1 year he is still afraid of the world you got what you got.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> A trainer is suggesting a thunder shirt. That is why I asked.


A good trainer won't be slapping a gimmick on a fearful pup - that's why I said a good one.  If you need to, consider a behavioralist. 

There is a difference between actually monitoring a pup's thresholds and working on expanding those versus just plugging treats in the presence of something they fear. I run into way too many trainers who call plugging treats "counter conditioning". It's not.

If the fear is so intense that you are unable to work under the pup's threshold with a skilled trainer, a behavioralist may prescribe a temporary medication to help relax him and artificially expand his threshold enough for you to build it up. Then he can be weaned off the medication when he has built a higher threshold for the stimulus that is causing the fear reaction. Of course, that is worst case training scenario. Hopefully a skilled trainer or behavioralist will be able to teach you how to work under threshold and build the pup's tolerance.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

simba405 said:


> Get a new trainer. A trainer should help you with your dog. Not slap some gimmick on it.
> 
> Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer.....


First one I tried does pass the puppy and socialization like the horror story in the other thread. 

Second one I tried, I had to bail her dog out of the pound after he went roaming, also does the group socialization.

I have also talked to the petsmart trainer who seems like she knows what she is talking about but you guys say stay away from petsmart.

The thundershirt recommendation comes from another trainer I'm talking with.

Dude is not completely untrained and neither am I or my husband novices. Dude sits, downs, touches, drop it, bring the ball etc. he is also fully crate trained. 

Where else do you suggest I look? I do have an email out to a friend of Baliff who might know of someone in the area. (crossing fingers) 

Money and trainers don't grow on trees. 

Spent a fortune on a neuter today. A drugged Dude has been the most puppy like he has ever been. Jumped into the car, sat up (rather than low scared) the entire trip home looking around and nose up to the window. This evening has been sitting in the living room all night taking treats from hubby rather than running scared. The drugs seemed to help the anxiety. Maybe I should be talking to the vet about Prozac for puppy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No coddling, thundershirts or whatever else. Get the dog out there and expose it to everything. Every day take him somewhere new. Do not let him runaway or shut down. Whether its stairs or walking through a city he has no choice unless you give him one.
> If after that he still does not get better PTS and next time buy from a breeder that knows what they are doing and offers a temperment / health guarentee. If by 1 year he is still afraid of the world you got what you got.


I don't buy from breeders anymore. All of my dogs are messed up rescue/pound pups. I'm not giving up as long as my husband hangs in there. 

I'm no expert but exposing a fearful puppy to everything, is I imagine a great way to make him shut down and turn aggressive. 

I don't need or expect Dude to be a social butterfly. I do want to stop the bark growling at members of the family. (his pack)


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

They been known to help a lot of dogs with anxiety issues.. WE have quiet a few people that come to our class and have used them with success.. Now granted they don't use them in class.. But outside of class they do..

It doesn't work for all dogs just like anything else out there..

I wouldn't discredit a trainer because they suggest you try one..


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've heard mixed reviews on them. Never used one myself but I have considered trying them out. Nothing's ever worked better for me with situations like that than putting the scared pup with a bunch of stable confident dogs and introducing new people, events, and stimuli while they're there to give the puppy a read on how to act.

The tendency for a lot of people is to see a fearful pup and immediately shelter it and put it in a bubble. Sometimes you just have to let them get through it and try to help them see the situation in a more positive light with the introduction of food or something like that. If the thunder shirt helps your dog at all as far as being a wedge to help you get your dog past something then great, but it won't be a magic bullet or anything. Medication won't be a solution either. Then you'll just have a spaced out nervy puppy.

If you want your dog to stop barking at family members mark him with a no at the start of the behavior and punish him till he stops. Simple was that. Then after he stops being an idiot make friends.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Only if the shirt has a covering that says " you've been thundersruckk" and a big acdc logo on it. 

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Only if the shirt has a covering that says " you've been thundersruckk" and a big acdc logo on it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Funny story. Husband was getting gas and there was a teenager getting gas in the car next to him singing ♪ undershirt ♪ to Thunderstruck. We had a good laugh over that one.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Baillif said:


> If you want your dog to stop barking at family members mark him with a no at the start of the behavior and punish him till he stops. Simple was that. Then after he stops being an idiot make friends.


What is appropriate punishment? I do not want to make him more fearful. 

I wish I had a roomful of appropriate puppies to help him. I'm sure some of his fearfulness came from being raised with the ferals and other not normal dogs at Safe Haven. I don't think we have a normal one of the bunch. Even my pack at home has issues. Tasha we think was abused before we rescued her at 7. It took us months of good treats for Ivan to not run and hide if my husband got even the hint of a growl in his deep voice. When we got him from the shelter he had huge sores around his neck. ACO thinks it was from an inappropriately used shock collar. He is a very soft dog. Wiggles rolls and flops every-time she approaches anyone, she came that way when we got her. Buddy was the only normal one of the bunch and he passed away 3 weeks ago which isn't helping the situation at all and dudes fearfulness has increased.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Baillif said:


> If you want your dog to stop barking at family members mark him with a no at the start of the behavior and punish him till he stops. Simple was that. Then after he stops being an idiot make friends.



I too would like to hear what is appropriate punishment in this situation. 

We have a client with a 14week old pup, not GSD, that barks at people whenever they come in the exam room. The owner is giving a strong "no" then correcting on the collar, then grabbing the puppies mouth until it stops barking. Usually takes a few minutes. But the pup is not recovering well. 

I see it happen, and the only thing I can think is that it VERY wrong way to handle the situation. If the pup is fearful of new people, and expressing that fear through barking, the owner is making it worse by using harsh physical corrections, everytime a new person comes in. Won't the pup associate the new people with the corrections, making him more fearful and distrustful of them? If nothing good ever happens to the pup when new people are introduced, how will he overcome his fear of them? She may eventually stop the behavior, but she won't be stopping the fear. 

Honest question, this situation(with our client) has me upset. I would love to give her a better alternative. 


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Maybe saying "no" firmly then the second the dogs stops reward with a treat. Crazy? I did that with shiggs when she barked at other dogs walking by, I said no and then the minute she stopped or diverted her attention I would reward her, now when other dogs walk by she is up my ass looking for treats which is a whole different issue lol but it actually worked, that was wgen I was at my most inexperienced but hey it actually worked.

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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

What issues are you having, exactly? I seem to be missing some back story.

There is nothing wrong with a thunder shirt, I am a trainer, I have recommended them and used them for some situations. They don't work for every dog, but they can't mess the dog up and there's nothing wrong with a trainer suggesting holistic methods to help BAT. 

I use a thunder shirt on my 4 y/o GSD who is afraid of thunderstorms. He does very well with them now - I can't give all credit to the shirt, but it did help bring down his panic so that he could be trained to work through the sounds and learn to behave properly, that is for sure. 

I would say, based on reading what I have here alone, it is worth a shot. I'd be interested in talking to you more about his issues, and I agree that if he is dog-friendly, getting him around another dog or two (that are friendly and confident) could be a great thing for him, training-wise. I would not be giving corrections to a dog that is fearful/aggressive/reactive and anxious in this regard- it is obvious he does not have the strong nerves to handle a correction well and understand what it means- you will likely silence a bark or growl and end communication until he is pushed further over threshold without realization and he will go straight for a bite. Understand why he's doing what he's doing and use positive reinforcement to change his perceptions and manage the situations to prevent him from needing to be on edge to the best of his ability. 

My 4 year old Shepherd was, once upon a time, very growly and aggressive towards strangers that would try to touch him or linger over him - Still not 100% sure WHY - but we were able to figure out his triggers, change diet, environment, add some holistic medication like DAP, Thundershirt, and Stress-Free calmplex, and use BAT to fix the problems- Now, it's been about a year and a half since he has growled at anyone, including vets doing thorough exams/vaccines/draws, and strangers measuring him for SAR harnesses. I never once corrected his growling or posturing because I didn't want him to stop communicating and potentially go for a bite at some point. I wanted him to think differently- to learn other, safe and appropriate ways of communication to get himself out of those situations and/or to think differently about the stimuli and triggers in general and not view them as a threat, for whatever reason. It worked well, and I have a dog with no bite history on my hands that is all but bombproof now and a demo dog for my training classes.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have a thunder shirt.. Maybe it would help with Grim's reactivity.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The Thundershirt is not a "gimmick". It actually does help some dogs. I had a dog who was afraid of thunder and loud noises. Putting the Thundershirt on him calmed him down enough that he would just lie there and pant instead of racing around trying to find a place to hide. 

I run a grooming salon, and have used Thundershirts with some success. I have a 30 lb. Pug that comes in to have his nails done; he hates it and it is like wrestling a wild boar. With the Thundershirt, he simply stands there and screams bloody murder., rather than spinning, biting, and fighting me tooth and claw. I have a couple other dogs that it seems to help, and yet others that don't respond to it at all. So I'd say, it's worth a try. I think Thundershirt offers a money-back guarantee, so there's nothing to lose really.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> What issues are you having, exactly? I seem to be missing some back story.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a thunder shirt, I am a trainer, I have recommended them and used them for some situations. They don't work for every dog, but they can't mess the dog up and there's nothing wrong with a trainer suggesting holistic methods to help BAT.
> 
> ...


I got pup at 12 weeks from rescue. He is very scared with anyone but me. Daughter came home for a visit and although he made friends every time she got up to go into kitchen or somewhere he would bark/growl and run away. Would run from husband but recently has started the bark/growl with him as well. Husband has been trying since week 12 to make friends with puppy. Puppy will take treats, but when he gets up to go somewhere puppy will bark growl. Not normal puppy loves at all. 

Husband is frustrated and starting to lose his patience. Which makes puppy more fearful. 

Pup is not always fearful which is part of the frustration I think. We don't know which way he will act. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?
v=745427312155561&set=vb.100000648976997&type=3

Pup is ok with other dogs. We have 4. I have also taking him to several socialization classes with other dogs. He hangs close to me but will relax and play with other dogs for a short time. It is more the people he is afraid of. 

He will also do the bark growl fun with my other daughter and her boyfriend. He did it over at their place so it is not just on his home turf.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I got pup at 12 weeks from rescue. He is very scared with anyone but me. Daughter came home for a visit and although he made friends every time she got up to go into kitchen or somewhere he would bark/growl and run away. Would run from husband but recently has started the bark/growl with him as well. Husband has been trying since week 12 to make friends with puppy. Puppy will take treats, but when he gets up to go somewhere puppy will bark growl. Not normal puppy loves at all.
> 
> Husband is frustrated and starting to lose his patience. Which makes puppy more fearful.
> 
> ...


How old is he now? Healthy otherwise? I couldn't see your link- could be a private photo.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> The Thundershirt is not a "gimmick". It actually does help some dogs. I had a dog who was afraid of thunder and loud noises. Putting the Thundershirt on him calmed him down enough that he would just lie there and pant instead of racing around trying to find a place to hide.
> 
> I run a grooming salon, and have used Thundershirts with some success. I have a 30 lb. Pug that comes in to have his nails done; he hates it and it is like wrestling a wild boar. With the Thundershirt, he simply stands there and screams bloody murder., rather than spinning, biting, and fighting me tooth and claw. I have a couple other dogs that it seems to help, and yet others that don't respond to it at all. So I'd say, it's worth a try. I think Thundershirt offers a money-back guarantee, so there's nothing to lose really.


Thundershirt is being offered as a loan for free from rescue. 

My worry is I'm going to make things worse. Is that possible? 

I know my emotions are playing a big part of the problem now. We lost my 12 year old Shepherd 3 weeks ago and I'm starting to be afraid hubby and puppy will never get along.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Thundershirt is being offered as a loan for free from rescue.
> 
> My worry is I'm going to make things worse. Is that possible?
> 
> I know my emotions are playing a big part of the problem now. We lost my 12 year old Shepherd 3 weeks ago and I'm starting to be afraid hubby and puppy will never get along.


 
You could definitely make things worse by training/correcting the wrong way.

I cannot see any way that a thunder shirt could make things worse, however.

Is it possible for you to video tape his behavior and upload it to youtube so some of us could see what he's doing to help out more potentially?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> How old is he now? Healthy otherwise? I couldn't see your link- could be a private photo.


He is 6 months. Completely healthy. Let me try again with the link. I changed it to public, I think. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=745427312155561&set=vb.100000648976997&type=3


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Here is a photo of Grim trying out his thunder shirt. If you decide on Prozac and it helps your dog, as it helps many, you have my support. As soon as we have our new fence up we are taking Skadi off of it. Another thing to consider is lactium and l theanine. You can order them in human grade supplements from Swanson's. There are dosing charts for a dog's weight and needed dose on line. I learned about these supplements at a Nicole Wilde conference. Lactium is in Women's Stress Formula by Swanson's. It works within a few days.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sent pms to those with questions. A thunder shirt or medication isn't going to fix the dog training done right will.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Of course! These things are used in tandem with training.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Thundershirt is being offered as a loan for free from rescue.
> 
> My worry is I'm going to make things worse. Is that possible?


 I can't imagine how a Thundershirt could make anything worse. It doesn't hurt the dog in any way. No one is sure exactly why it works, but it has something to do with pressure. It's the same concept as a squeeze chute for cattle; it calms them. Temple Grandin talks about this concept of body pressure, and in fact, she made herself a "squeeze box" that she climbs into and it places pressure on her body, calming her. Like a human squeeze chute.

The worst thing I've seen dogs do with a Thundershirt on, is that some of them react more vocally than physically to whatever it is that scares them. That is, instead of running around flipping out, they'll just sit there and moan, whine, or scream. I'm guessing the dog is venting stress vocally rather than physically, if that makes sense.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't buy from breeders anymore. All of my dogs are messed up rescue/pound pups. I'm not giving up as long as my husband hangs in there.
> 
> I'm no expert but exposing a fearful puppy to everything, is I imagine a great way to make him shut down and turn aggressive.


You're wonderful, Shepherdmom. I know I don't have to tell you to ignore the unhelpful advice (PTS a puppy? Seriously???), but I want to affirm your commitment to helping this puppy and finding resources that work. 

Please send a PM to Mereciel. What she accomplished with her dog, Pongu, is nothing short of spectacular, and I think she'll likely be a great source of training tips and inspiration. She "gets" fearful dogs, their limits, and their possibilities--and unlike a lot of people here, she's successfully transcended limits with one that had a lot of "baggage," and accomplished great things with that dog.

As to your question, I've actually used the TS for a foster dog with severe storm phobia. It doesn't _fix_ the fear. It does seem to help a little. Combined with DAP spray ("dog appeasing pheromone"--available on Amazon), it moves this dog's shut down line a bit -- that's a very small success, but it is one. This is a dog who descends into abject terror when thunder starts. The TS doesn't stop the panic, but it seems to delay the onset. The more I can delay and use that time to treat, praise and distract, the better my chances of helping him. That little extra time while his brain still works is actually pretty valuable to me, as this is a long-term rehab of a dog who lived on a chain, not a quick fix. Moving his panic-line further and further is the goal, so anything that assists me with that, I find useful.

A few thoughts...and these are the thoughts of someone who has fostered many scared rescue pet dogs (not someone who owns and trains and titles fabulous high-end working dogs): do not overwhelm the dog. Taking it everywhere and doing everything and "making it" accept all that isn't likely to work. The pup will likely stop trusting you and fear you. I think that's terrible advice for a pup like this. Instead, praise and celebrate every act of bravery and courage, no matter how small!

The key with new stimuli and new situations is to know where your pup's shutdown line is, and then take it close to but never beyond, that line daily. With a pup that shut-down on leash on walks, just getting her down to the end of my driveway was success--and we promptly turned around and ended it on a good note. Then we got to the edge of my next-door-neighbor's house. Then two houses down. It was at least a month before we could walk a block. It was very, very slow going, but she can walk anywhere on leash now, two years later.

I also don't think dogs like this should be corrected much at all. They're scared of the world, so building confidence is the primary reason for any training -- set them up to succeed, and then reinforce the success over and over. Clicker training is likely to be a great option for a dog like this. The more she realizes she knows the right thing to do and good stuff happens, the more predictable and safe her world is.

Not all dogs are lost causes when fearful as pups. I had a male that was a mess at 11 months when we got him out of the shelter. He stared at corners of rooms and tried to make himself invisible. He eventually morphed into a gregarious, friendly social butterfly with a great sense of humor--but it took more than a year to start to see that. Years later, he was a dog my vet, friends, trainers, and family describe as their favorite GSD because he was so kind and funny -- it's all very, very possible. 

Lastly, I recommend using an essential oil diffuser in the house with an anti-anxiety/calming blend. It's good for your own stress level when you feel like you aren't making progress (we all have those days), and I honestly think it helps the dogs. I like Aura Cacia's Mellow Mix (a blend of Lavender, Lemon, Sandalwood, Roman Chamomile, Petitgrain, and Neroli). As an added bonus, the house smells good!

Resources:
_The Cautious Canine_ (a small 30-p. booklet), by Patricia McConnell
The Cautious Canine book | Dog Training Book | Patricia McConnell
(also on Amazon: The Cautious Canine-How to Help Dogs Conquer Their Fears: Patricia B. McConnell: 9781891767005: Amazon.com: Books)

DAP - I use this one and spray it in the kennel or room where I'm working with the dog--there are many other brands I haven't tried:
Amazon.com : Comfort Zone with DAP for Dogs Spray, 60 Milliliters : Pet Deterrent Sprays : Pet Supplies


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Just want to add...I think Danielle (DJEtzel) is offering really good advice! 

I'm intrigued by the supplements Emily suggested and plan to investigate further--very cool to know they are working.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Baillif said:


> Sent pms to those with questions. A thunder shirt or medication isn't going to fix the dog training done right will.


You should know well that sometimes management tools are needed in order to get dogs in the right mindset so that training can be accomplished

Eta- thank you magwart!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have the supplements, but we decided to use them for Skadi only while we were waiting for the Prozac to take effect, and then stop. 
I know Nicole recommends them for her fearful clients. I may try them on Grim as I do think some calming aids might help his reactivity.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> You should know well that sometimes management tools are needed in order to get dogs in the right mindset so that training can be accomplished
> 
> Eta- thank you magwart!


Right but those would not be my tools of choice for that situation.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Calming products for fearful dogs | Fearful Dogs


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Magwart said:


> As to your question, I've actually used the TS for a foster dog with severe storm phobia. It doesn't _fix_ the fear. It does seem to help a little. Combined with DAP spray ("dog appeasing pheromone"--available on Amazon), it moves this dog's shut down line a bit -- that's a very small success, but it is one. This is a dog who descends into abject terror when thunder starts. The TS doesn't stop the panic, but it seems to delay the onset. The more I can delay and use that time to treat, praise and distract, the better my chances of helping him. That little extra time while his brain still works is actually pretty valuable to me, as this is a long-term rehab of a dog who lived on a chain, not a quick fix. Moving his panic-line further and further is the goal, so anything that assists me with that, I find useful.


 Well said. The Thundershirt is not a cure, it's a management tool that can be helpful in conjunction with training and therapy. 

I had forgotten about the DAP. They make a collar impregnated with the pheromone, too, which may be of some help. I use the spray in my grooming salon. It works for some dogs. FWIW, I put one of the feline pheromone collars on my cat when he seemed to be stressing out, and ever since I've had it on him, his inappropriate toilet habits have completely ceased. He's a cat and not a dog, of course, but it leads me to believe there's something to the pheromone therapy.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't buy from breeders anymore. All of my dogs are messed up rescue/pound pups. I'm not giving up as long as my husband hangs in there.
> 
> I'm no expert but exposing a fearful puppy to everything, is I imagine a great way to make him shut down and turn aggressive.
> 
> I don't need or expect Dude to be a social butterfly. I do want to stop the bark growling at members of the family. (his pack)


Good for you. Someone has to spend thousands on thundershirts, prozac and "behaviorists".

You think I just came up with that advice of the top of my head? I am familiar with that type of dog. I have actually dealt with and trained that type of dog. Exposure will only shut the dog down if you let it. It will not make the dog aggressive unless your physically abusing him every time he sees something he is afraid of or he already has major genetic issues in which case its even more important to get him out there.

Its not about making the dog a social butterfly its about allowing him to exist and function in a world that to his mind is a scary place.

The dog needs to face the environmental stress and with your leadership overcome it. He doesnt need to be coddled that will only validate his state of mind.
You get the dog out into the world. He eats and plays out in the world. He is taught what is allowed and what isnt with an operant conditioning model which includes positive punishment.

Find a trainer like Bailiff who actually knows what they are doing and can show examples of their work. 
Or..take the advice of the internet trainers on here and buy a thundershirt and pump him full of drugs. Then in a year you can put him down when he bites someone and post a sad memorium thread.

You may still have to do that. Some dogs just cannot function safely in a family environment no matter what is done. 
Hence the importance of buying from someone that knows what they are doing or if you are dead set on pound pups you better be able to know how to select a pup that is not going to be a complete mess.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

a cautionary letter | Nancy Tanner


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When I first got the dog I fostered back from my dad he was very anxious. I got the thundershirt and he got it off and ate it. We did much better without it.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Makes me think of Temple Grandin's "Hug Machine".

I'm sure there's something to a thundershirt.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

I've seen a big ankle rap used for the same effect as a thundershirt. Rap it firmly around just enough to apply pressure so the dog feels comforted. 

It didn't really have any visible affect on the dog's behavior(which was just whiny because he didn't like car rides). I'm sure it varies from dog to dog as well though


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have adopted two fearful dogs and re-trained a few others. A thundershirt absolutely cannot hurt. One shy dog that I trained got a great deal of comfort from wearing a t-shirt, pulled up at the back with a rubber band (so that it was tight around her body). I would also look into t-touch. 

When I adopted Basu at age 4.5 he was terrified of everything and everyone. He was an 80lb. WGSL gsd. He barked so ferociously at people that people who didn't know him were terrified of him. That worked well to keep them away from him so he kept doing it. He had been kept in a cage for most of his life and was strongly "corrected" (=hit repeatedly) for barking and anything else he did that his owner didn't like. When I adopted this dog and looked into his eyes, he was not there. He had checked out. 

If I would have given him a physical correction he would have shut down immediately. In fact, the method of training I used at that time was much like what Bailiff is suggesting. It worked great for my first gsd, who was a very hard and confident dog, but not so well for my rottie mix and not at all for Basu. 

What worked for Basu was a lot of counter-conditioning, strict NILIF, rewards for the tiniest steps in the right direction, learning to control my own reactions and 100% consistency. I learned to read him very well and managed him very carefully. 

Even though everything was a new experience for him, I did not keep him locked in my house or yard but instead we did a lot of walking, hiking and travelling. Chama was confident around people and that helped Basu. I kept things low key for him (did not let strangers approach him) but made sure he got to do fun things (play, etc.) in different places. Eventually he would approach people with dogs (looking for treats!) and then finally he allow strangers to approach him but that was always on my terms and he had a strict protocol he had to go through first. 

Management was key with him: he lived for 6.5 years after I adopted him and although he greatly improved (people who met him when I first adopted him couldn't believe he was the same dog), I had to manage him carefully all of his life. 

I did many levels of training with Basu. I also exercised him a lot, every day and made sure he got play time with other dogs. I also read every book out there on shy and fearful dogs.

The other thing I would recommend, if you haven't already done so, is to join the shy dogs yahoo group. 

And trust your instincts: do not do anything you think may cause further harm.


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## 45yearsofGSDs (Sep 19, 2013)

Lots of time, patience and consistency - had my best successes that way


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your replies! I am going through them now and following all of the links! 

I will try to respond to more later but I did want you to know that I am listening and reading. 

Thank you!!!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I think BowWowMeow, Magwart, Freestep, DJEtzel and other people in this thread have given you some really good advice.

I would definitely _not_ recommend punishing the dog for exhibiting fearful behaviors or overwhelming him by exposing him to situations that you know are going to be way above his ability to handle.

I don't really have a lot to add. In my opinion, the basic information on how to handle a fearful dog is pretty simple and not that difficult to find. _Doing_ it is another matter entirely, though. Actually putting in the work takes a ton of time, effort, emotional energy, and patience.

A Thundershirt might help. I have known dogs for whom it was extremely helpful. I've also known others for whom it didn't do anything (Pongu was one of these; I think he was just too severe a case for that relatively minor assistance to make any difference for him). If you have a chance to try it for free, I vote to go ahead and try it. Can't hurt, might help.

(As far as my own fearful dog story goes, there's a whole dumb thread about that, but here's the slightly shorter version: Champion of Terror: The Tale of Pongu the Insane | Team Unruly )


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Or..take the advice of the internet trainers on here and buy a thundershirt and pump him full of drugs.


 I haven't seen a single person here say that a Thundershirt will magically cure the dog, nor have I seen a single person advocate "pumping him full of drugs". Pretty much everyone is saying "a Thundershirt can't hurt, give it a try and see if it helps your training and counter-conditioning." 

I think maybe a couple of people said that Prozac was helpful for their dog, but that's a far cry from saying "Just pump him full of drugs and everything will be fixed."

I'm not sure what your suggestions are for the problem, but others might have different experiences, and successes. It happens all the time, so keep an open mind.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Good for you. Someone has to spend thousands on thundershirts, prozac and "behaviorists".


Let me just say that it is my choice. My kids are grown. If hubby and I now choose to rescue then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. I've had dogs from breeders and have spent thousands at the vet. Breeder dogs do have issues too. If I now have the time and the resources available to give back some of the love animals have given me over the years then why wouldn't I? 



> Find a trainer like Bailiff who actually knows what they are doing and can show examples of their work.


I am trying to do that. I have asked on several different threads for trainers in this area and so you know, I have also asked Bailiff for for his recommendation of trainers in the area. 

If my question about a Thunder shirt offends, I am sorry but it is helping me to decide which trainer and which methods to use. 

I really appreciate everyone chiming in and please keep the comments coming.  I have received a couple of trainer recommendations pm and if anyone has more I would love love love to have them.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Let me just say that it is my choice. My kids are grown. If hubby and I now choose to rescue then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. I've had dogs from breeders and have spent thousands at the vet. Breeder dogs do have issues too. If I now have the time and the resources available to give back some of the love animals have given me over the years then why wouldn't I?
> 
> *Nothing wrong with rescue however your post came off as dismissive towards the quality you get when you go to a breeder that knows what they are doing. If you are going to the right people that sell dogs with health/temperment guarentees and are using good genetic material then you have a much better chance of avoiding those vet and trainer bills.*
> 
> ...


A trainer with PROVEN success is the way to go. Good luck.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Whichever route you go in training.. Just be consistent with it.. The worst thing you can do is flip flop back n forth.. Or not give a particular method time to work before you switch it up..


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I too would like to hear what is appropriate punishment in this situation.
> 
> We have a client with a 14week old pup, not GSD, that barks at people whenever they come in the exam room. The owner is giving a strong "no" then correcting on the collar, then grabbing the puppies mouth until it stops barking. Usually takes a few minutes. But the pup is not recovering well.
> 
> ...


My dog does this too, barking when the vet enters the exam room. The first time it happened (at about the same age) my vet brushed it off and said my dog was just saying "Hi" and I'm grateful that I have a vet with GSD experience that could ignore it. I did mark the behavior with a "no" and asked for quiet, but I didn't turn it into a huge ordeal with my puppy, by holding his muzzle closed, and giving him a very good reason to freak out. I think this is excessive, and probably counter productive.

I don't think this is necessarily fear either. When you're in the exam room with your pup, the two of you are relaxed, and then all of a sudden the door (that the dog didn't even know was there) opens up - I think that might be a reason for a pup to be wary. I know my pup is extremely loud too, in all circumstances. I don't think correcting with a "no" is wrong here, but only in the sense that I'm telling him I don't want him woofing away. But after my no, I used distraction on my part and ignoring on the vet's part, and that's what got him quiet.

I have always found that ignoring dogs goes a long way to helping them overcome their initial apprehensions. If they get to watch things from a distance, and can approach when they're ready to give some sniffs, and they're left alone to do this, they can figure out things are ok on their own. 

Shepherdmom, I don't know about the thundershirt, but I feel bad that your husband isn't having the bond with the pup that you are. Have you tried having your DH do all the feeding? And giving the pup a very wide berth the rest of the time? He's still very young and he'll change alot over the coming months. I know he's in the right home and you'll look back on this as a learning time


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I have always found that ignoring dogs goes a long way to helping them overcome their initial apprehensions. If they get to watch things from a distance, and can approach when they're ready to give some sniffs, and they're left alone to do this, they can figure out things are ok on their own.


Yes, Xena is like that, she used to be terrified of everything except me and even though she has bounced back so well every once in a while someone will move too fast, do something out of the ordinary, and she will bark at them. A big deal for her, she very rarely barks. I tell her no, it's okay and then the person totally ignores her and let her come check them out and she's fine. 

I remember once she was very upset because my boyfriend's cousin ducked down behind the couch to fix the leg back there. It was funny because it was so random, she was jumping around sideways like a cat with her hair on end


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Magwart said:


> You're wonderful, Shepherdmom. I know I don't have to tell you to ignore the unhelpful advice (PTS a puppy? Seriously???), but I want to affirm your commitment to helping this puppy and finding resources that work.



I am not all that wonderful but Thank You! I can't tell you how much I needed to hear that yesterday when I read your message.  

I am doing my best. I just hope I don't screw it up too bad!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Shepherd mom you are awesome and I am sure you will do great.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I was skeptical, but now I am a convert. It has given him the ability to listen when he is scared. He is still scared but now he can focus enough to function.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Love this!


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Tried "Thundershirt". Complete waste of money. He ripped it off within minutes. Now I have one cant use it. You want it?


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Tried the "Thundershirt". Complete waste of money. He ripped it off within 2 minutes. You want it? I use love and redirection when he gets scared or nervous.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Shepherdmom, are you on Facebook? Join Fearful Dogs. There is a lot of good info in that group.


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## Baleato (Apr 10, 2013)

I just attended a 3 day seminar 'Scientific dog training with feeling' by Dr Ian Dunbar; if you ever get a chance to attend one of his dog workshops or seminars take it, he was wonderful. 
One of the techniques that he talked about seems like it would help your husband and dog. He recommended (for example for a dog that is fearful of children) that you stop bowl feeding your dog and for a few weeks all food comes would come (in your case) from your husband by hand. Not necessarily all at once, like a meal. You can use it randomly, or to reward good behaviour, but ALL food comes from your husband and it's important that he does not give any harsh corrections for behaviour, instead showing the dog the behaviour he does want and then rewarding the dog when it's given.

As others have said before me, never correct growling, it's the best way to create a dog that goes from upset straight to a bite. People will miss what to us are obvious canine body signals and say 'I don't know what happened the dog was fine and then it bit me'. 

Are there certain situations your pup is really fearful in? It's important to remember that socialisation isn't just exposing your dog to as many things as possible, it's doing so in a way that creates a positive impression on your dog. But you probably know that 
Great to hear that the thundershirt is helping you


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## Baleato (Apr 10, 2013)

And as a neat little introduction to fearful dogs UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine just posted this on their facebook page.
May Ask a Trainer: First Steps for Fearful Dogs | One Tail at a Time


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's great news, there's nothing like seeing a fearful dog come out of their shell. It's the little things that encourage you and I applaud you for sticking with him


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> Tried the "Thundershirt". Complete waste of money. He ripped it off within 2 minutes. You want it? I use love and redirection when he gets scared or nervous.


I've got one, thanks, but I know Safe Haven would love to have it or maybe a rescue closer to you might want one.  When they do work they are amazing.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Baleato said:


> I just attended a 3 day seminar 'Scientific dog training with feeling' by Dr Ian Dunbar; if you ever get a chance to attend one of his dog workshops or seminars take it, he was wonderful.


I am already a fan of Ian Dunbar and have had one of his books for a while. 

Since we have had this pup Super High Value treats only come from my husband. We have had fearful dogs before just never one that was so fearful none of the usual methods worked. The Thundershirt is helping so that the other methods are starting to work. Hubby has been able to play tug and feed treats.

BTW thank you for the link!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Shepherdmom, are you on Facebook? Join Fearful Dogs. There is a lot of good info in that group.


I am on Facebook.  I just asked to join.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Shepherdmom, I don't know about the thundershirt, but I feel bad that your husband isn't having the bond with the pup that you are. Have you tried having your DH do all the feeding? And giving the pup a very wide berth the rest of the time? He's still very young and he'll change alot over the coming months. I know he's in the right home and you'll look back on this as a learning time


Sorry I'm getting to these messages kind of late. We have tried that. We have tried all the methods that we have learned over the years for fearful dogs. Ivan was fearful as well but in a different way, but nothing that worked for him has worked for this little guy. 

It was really interesting that after his neuter surgery, he was up acting like an almost normal pup. Sitting up in the car looking out the window instead of being hunkered down... and the same way at home with hubby. It was like the drugs from the surgery gave him confidence. But by the next morning it had worn off and he was fearful again.  

That was when I finally decided to give the Thundershirt a try. Many had mentioned it couldn't hurt so I decided to give it a shot. I really thought there was no way it could work. But it is. 

Its not a instant cure but after the first few hours we could already see a difference. My husband is even more amazed than I am if that is possible. It is giving pup enough confidence that the other things we had been doing are finally starting to get through. Instead of one step forward and 10 back it has been little steps forward each day and as long as hubby is seeing progress he is happy. So yea!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm so glad you're seeing positive results with it  that's great news!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm also glad your seeing positive results, what works for one may not work for another.

I had an aussie who was thunder phobic, got the t shirt, it certainly didn't cure her, but seemed to calm her some, as well as melatonin..


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)




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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! Getting a very shy dog out to a place like Petsmart and successfully through class is a huge achievement. It is monumental progress for dogs like this. Huge, huge kudos to you for getting him this far.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Congratulations here also! I take it the car is no longer an issue?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Yay Dude!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks.  Dude is doing great. We still have things we need to work through and some things just can't be changed but finally I can see the progress. :happyboogie: 

Thunder-shirt helps greatly, but its so hot I haven't had him wear it for a couple of weeks. 

He does ok with the car as long as air conditioning vents are on him. Luckily my car has back vents. He still can not ride in crate in car without getting sick.


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