# Recently Adopted GSD-Extreme Protectiveness



## RebeccaMac (Nov 21, 2012)

Hello,

Please excuse this VERY long post. I'm at a loss.

On 11/16/2012 (yes, 3 days ago) we adopted what appears to be a pure bred male GSD approximately 4 years old. We spent about 30 minutes with him in the "get to know you" area with all members of the household including our dogs and four year old daughter. He was fantastic! Wanted to play with the dogs, wanted hugs from us, never barked except when in play position with the dogs and gentle with my child.

We decided to adopt him and brought him home. We discovered some other great things! He knows sit, down, stay and began responding to us almost instantly within a couple of hours. He is perfectly housebroken though he will not use the dog door. Seems to have no food or toy aggression period. He doesn't go near the trash or the food on the counters and only seems moderately interested in my cat. He lays calmly when not busy and loves playing ball in the backyard. He comes over every now and then for a lean and a cuddle. He seemed great!!

Sunday night (24 hours after bringing him home) two things happened that have me VERY concerned. 

One: he began what I believe is "herding" behavior with my daughter. Nips to the ankles/arms and even nosed her in the face. He whines lightly when this happens and does not bark or growl and I cannot see the trigger except one time she was walking toward the front door. My rottweiler who passed away last year at 2 from a heart defect often nipped at her ankles between the ages of 6 mos and 1 year when they were playing but it was more drooly mouthing and this dog seems to be nipping for real. It has happened a few times since then.

Two: We had 3 people enter the house Sunday even. First, my sister came over. My other dogs bark and rush the door a bit when someone knocks so I didn't think much of him following suit but when we welcomed her in he went berserk. Lunging and barking without ceasing. She is in no way intimidated by dogs and after a few minutes after barking at her he calmed a bit and approached her for cuddles.
However, when my brother-in-law and mother-in-law came over he went at it again. Both are fearful of dogs and he didn't warm up to them period. We kept him leashed and whenever any of them would move he would leave his blanket and lunge and bark. He nipped at my MIL's feet. After about 30 minutes of my brother in law not moving around he went over calmly to sniff and even offered a lick but then started back at the barking and lunging.

I've never witnessed that kind of behavior in an animal to be frank. We took him to the vet today and he greeted dogs in a friendly way but barked a little at the people in the lobby. Once we got into the room however and the vet entered it was serious barking and lunging again. (still no snarling, growling or baring of teeth). They could not examine him in the room with us.

The took him to a separate room in the back to get checked out and once he was out of the room with us immediately calmed. No barking no aggressive reactions nothing. They muzzled him out of concern however but he said he was fine once not in the room with us.

The vet said his behavior is dangerous and doesn't think he should be around my little one. He recommended returning him to animal control as a human aggressive dog. He said protectiveness at that level could indicate prior abuse or inappropriate training and that could be turned against my child. I was hesitant to turn him back in to animal control as I know they would euthanize him. The vet even suggested that may be best! 

I'm very concerned about the safety of my daughter and as much as we love our dogs (who are all rescues or adopted from animal control ranging in age from 2 yrs to 15 yrs) I must, and will, put her safety first. The rescues around here are an option but want you to foster the dog until adoption (I understand the very good reason for this as space/time/money are limited) and I don't want to risk my family's safety. I can take him to the humane society here as they have the reputation of working to rehabilitate but that's a euthanasia risk too. I would work on it myself but as I said I've never witnessed this type of behavior in an animal.

He's a long coated male GSD, approx. 4 yrs. old, recently neutered (less than 1 week ago) that came in as a stray. He was moderately clean with clipped nails, immaculate ears and no physical ailments whatsoever including no kennel cough. He is not hand shy, not scared of loud noises, doesn't seem to want to eat dry food as he acts starving and gets excited about the approaching bowl but looks at me like I'm nuts once he sees whats inside. He does love some chicken and rice however.

Any ideas? Thanks so much for taking the time to read this. Any advice is much appreciated.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

short and sweet , error in management. "Sunday night (24 hours after bringing him home) two things happened that have me VERY concerned"

You placed the dog in the home without much of an introduction to the house rules , if there are any , dropped him in just like a goldfish into the aquarium .


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## RebeccaMac (Nov 21, 2012)

Someone I talked to said that I should have kept folks away for a couple of days and I understand that now but what about the behavior at the vet's office?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Please do this IMMEDIATELY. If the adoption can be saved, this may help. "TWO WEEK SHUT DOWN"
(or return him) 

"I introduced her to 15 people" " he was a bit leery but seems to like my other 3 dogs" 
"she went everywhere with me " 
All in the first few days of the new home..... (!!!) 

Two weeks later we read 
“I think we will have to rehome the new dog" "the new dog barked and nipped at my kid" 
"we had a dog fight"

Ok, folks, here it comes; some feel this is extreme, why? I really do not know. 
But when bringing in a new dog, post finding, adoption, buying, etc, Give it time to adjust to you 
your family and the dogs in the new environment. 

TWO WEEKS - "shut down" 
For the first two weeks, (sometimes even longer) a dog takes in the new environment, who is the top 
persons, dogs, who ARE these people! By pushing a dog too fast and throwing too much at the dog we look like we are not the leaders and the dog can feel it MUST defend itself, as the leader is surely 
no one he has met so far! 
We coo, coddle, drag the dog to home to home to person to person, and the dog has NO idea who 
we are. 
As member Maryellen here said, "This is the dating period NOT the honeymoon" 
When you first met your "mate”, you were on your best behavior, you were not relaxed enough to be 
all of yourself, were you? Just think of the things you do physically once you get to KNOW a person, 
you wouldn’t run up to a stranger and hug them and squeeze them! 
Imagine, if on the first date, this new person, was all over you touching you and having their friends hug you 
and pat you on the head, and jostle your shoulders, then he whisked you off to another stranger’s home and 
they did the same thing. Would you think this person normal and SAFE? Wouldn’t you feel invaded and 
begin to get a bit snarky yourself? Wouldn’t you think to push these people away for obviously your date 
is out of their mind and they aren’t going to save you from these weirdos!! 
Yet we do this to our dogs, and then get upset or worried that they aren’t relaxed and accepting of EVERYTHING 
instantly! 

By shutting down the dog, it gives the dog TIME to see you, meet YOU, hear and take in the new sounds 
and smells of your home. 
I crate the dog in a room by itself if possible.(Believe me, dogs are sensory animals, they know more than you think without seeing it). 
I take it out on a leash (so I don’t have to correct it ..I don’t have that right yet!), I give it exercise time in the yard, 
I do no training at all, just fun exercise and maybe throw some toys for fun, leash the dog if you don’t have a fence outside. But I DO NOT leave my yard, AT ALL. 
No car rides, no other dogs, (unless crated beside them), no pet stores, no WALKS even, nothing but me, my home, my yard. (Unless of course the dog needs to go to the veterinarian) 
Believe me dogs can live two weeks without walks. Walks are stressful for there is so much coming at you! And the new person you have no clue who they are yet. The dog may react to something and we start correcting it with the leash and we just installed a VERY STRESSFUL moment to the dog! 
TEACH the dog by doing the shut down, that YOU are the one to look to, that you are now here for the dog! He can
trust in you and look to you as its new leader!! 
In the house I have the dog out only for about 20 minutes post exercise/yard times. 
And, ALWAYS on a leash. 
Then PUT THE DOG AWAY. Let it absorb and think. 
I do not introduce the dogs for these two weeks, they can be side by side in the crates, (not nose to nose for they can feel defensive) . Some dogs will bond instantly with the other dogs if we don’t bond FIRST with the dog, and this can lead to some other issues, as the dog will look to the other dog(s) for guidance and not YOU! 

Literally in two weeks you will see a change in the dog and begin to see its honest and true personality. 
Just like a house guest...they are well behaved and literally shut down themselves these first few weeks, then 
post this time, they relax and the true personality begins to shine thru! 


So, please, if nothing else for your new dog, give it the time to LEARN YOU as you are learning who they are! 
This method works on shy dogs, confident dogs, abuse cases, chained dogs that come in, rowdy dogs, all temperaments!

(From PBF’s “luvnfstuff”, revised for spelling errors)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the vet should have known this ! did he know you only had him for a day or two and what the circumstances were? Instead he says "The vet said his behavior is dangerous and doesn't think he should be around my little one. He recommended returning him to animal control as a human aggressive dog" . 
Even your initial meeting with the dog was overwhelming . "We spent about 30 minutes with him in the "get to know you" area with all members of the household including our dogs and four year old daughter. He was fantastic! Wanted to play with the dogs, wanted hugs from us, never barked except when in play position with the dogs and gentle with my child." Lots of stimulation including having your current dogs thrust on him . A dangerous dog does not behave like this.

Your vet's statement may lead to the dog being euthanized ---- hooo-- I am the first to say that a unsalvageable risky fear aggressive dog has a better end if put to sleep , for its own self and the welfare of those it would come in contact with -- but from the sounds of it NOT this dog !!

He is confused and hasn't found his bearings , needs to be taught manners , by clear and fair and mutually respectful boundaries .


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

My take is you have a GSD that has been through alot of BS lately. I wouldn't panic just yet. GSDs are naturally protective.. if my dog was doing this, I would rack it up to instinct, and too much too fast for him. He's totally stressed out. (I snap at people when I'm at the end of my rope too, doesn't matter if it makes sense.. ) Give him a "shut down" time. (you can find more info on how to do that here, or someone will explain). Give him as much down time as you can. No vet, no kids, no going out... just let him settle in for a few weeks. Use the crate, and just spend one on one time with him. Introduce him slowly to being out and about and around the kids. Mine is a little nervy, and will "herd" my now 5 year old. If he thinks something is a threat he will "herd" his child away with some force. No AGGRESSION towards the child, just firmly, and sometimes physically placing himself in between (yes, this may knock a small child down). If he is not resource guarding, I would give it a solid chance. He is probably just stressed beyond his limits, and trying to do the right thing in his own way.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

obviously... I type too slow  your answers are below


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the vet should have known this ! did he know you only had him for a day or two and what the circumstances were? Instead he says "The vet said his behavior is dangerous and doesn't think he should be around my little one. He recommended returning him to animal control as a human aggressive dog" .
> Even your initial meeting with the dog was overwhelming . "We spent about 30 minutes with him in the "get to know you" area with all members of the household including our dogs and four year old daughter. He was fantastic! Wanted to play with the dogs, wanted hugs from us, never barked except when in play position with the dogs and gentle with my child." Lots of stimulation including having your current dogs thrust on him . A dangerous dog does not behave like this.
> 
> Your vet's statement may lead to the dog being euthanized ---- hooo-- I am the first to say that a unsalvageable risky fear aggressive dog has a better end if put to sleep , for its own self and the welfare of those it would come in contact with -- but from the sounds of it NOT this dog !!
> ...


What she said!!!!


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## chad2809 (Nov 21, 2012)

This behavior is to be expected until he feels safe with his new family, especially true for a rescued GSD. I highly agree with the two-week shutdown. Sounds like a very intelligent dog, and I hope you decide to keep him and provide a loving home. =)
I am also surprised at the vet did not say anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Most vets don't have a clue about behavior. I agree with taking it easy with him and let him bond with the family. Lots of positive interaction and rewards for good behavior towards in general and your child. Keep the child away from the dog if you cannot watch or manage both. Does he have nice place for himself to retreat? Do the other dogs overwhelm him? He needs his cues from you, not from them. Avoid high value resources lying around until he is fully integrated in the family. Give him a break and take it easy and keep us posted. Thanks for asking for help instead of returning him, that was smart.


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## RebeccaMac (Nov 21, 2012)

Frankly, I think the vet was frightened of him or generally disinterested. We are "between" vets right now (ours moved) and we were unfamiliar with this one. He showed little interest in speaking about the issue and just mentioned that shepherds are notorious "fear biters".

The biggest concern is whether or not he is a risk to the child. I'll speak with my husband about the situation.

The stories and advice are appreciated. The more the better.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

RebeccaMac said:


> Frankly, I think the vet was frightened of him or generally disinterested. We are "between" vets right now (ours moved) and we were unfamiliar with this one. He showed little interest in speaking about the issue and just mentioned that shepherds are notorious "fear biters".
> 
> The biggest concern is whether or not he is a risk to the child. I'll speak with my husband about the situation.
> 
> The stories and advice are appreciated. The more the better.


Doesn't sound like this vet likes GSDs. I would shop around a bit. Any vet that stereotyped my breed would be history  Any dog that has been through such harsh changes all at once is going to be on edge... doesn't take high education to have sensitivity to that. A vet should understand at least a little about general behaviour like this...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

As always, the two week shut down is a **rude term removed by ADMIN** waste of time and I never recommend it.

I wouldn't expect him to be dealing well with the sudden change just yet and would give him a few days of letting him settle in. Best thing you can do is take him out for long and frequent walks to help him with his stress, take off some of his energy, and bond with you. Be gentle and quiet with him, but do be very consistent with what limits you decide to set with him.

I would keep him separate from your child for a few days too until he settles down and then keep the child quiet and still so he has time to get used to her. Be very sure to supervise closely.

If he's still like this after a couple of weeks, then I would reassess and consider returning him.

** People can disagree with ideas, but you will NOT ridicule other members or their ideas.**


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Whether you want to call it a two week shut down or something else, I agree with the others about taking it slow and easy, giving the dog a stable routine, and working on quiet bonding and avoiding overwhelming the dog with too many new situations. 

Some good advice all around. Takes a looooooonnnngggg time sometimes for the real personality of a new adoptee to come out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yet you then say


> the two week shut down is a **** waste of time


That is your opinion but what's interesting is then you go on to recommend, basically, a "shut down", whether you want to call it such or not. 



> would give him a few days of letting him settle in.





> would keep him separate from your child for a few days





> take him out for long and frequent walks to help him with his stress,


Um...this _is_ the "two week shut down". Maybe two weeks is longer than you have in mind but that transition time is usually necessary to avoid things like what have already occurred. 

Done properly, the dog is merely crated instead of let wander around which will accomplish all the above. The dog, in between crating, is taken out, walked (alone), let play in the yard, etc. (with a leash on which is a great idea anyway).

Dogs should never be brought straight from a shelter and then have all these things thrown at them. 
They don't know who you are, and you don't know how they'll react to different situations.

The "two week shut down" is to give them a sense of 1) how your home works, 2) your relation with your family and other pets in the home, and 3) that you are indeed the leader and that will lead to 4) a trust and faith in you so when things start going weird (family comes over) they look to you for guidance.

Right now this dog has no idea who is good, bad, who should be let in the house, etc.
The two week shut down will give him that groundwork necessary to become a member of your household and not become a neurotic basket case as he is already now.

That he's already failed so miserably only serves to further justify and solidify the fact he needs the shut down.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

The poor dog is totally overwhelmed and overstimulated. He needs to be exposed to new situations gradually. German shepherds are a herding breed so the nipping and herding is hardwired in them and may require management.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I highly recommend the two-week shutdown as described by msvette.

However, I think we ought to find a different name for this method, as "shutdown" sounds so harsh, when the process is about the safety and well-being of the DOG as well as the family.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I highly recommend the two-week shutdown as described by msvette.
> 
> However, I think we ought to find a different name for this method, as "shutdown" sounds so harsh, when the process is about the safety and well-being of the DOG as well as the family.


I'd agree some folks take offense, apparently, to the name, without even bothering to read the procedure though.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

So we took 6 MONTHS of just us and our family. We mostly did not have folks over, but if we did Mason was crated in another room with the door closed. He is SUPER friendly and well adjusted and I still insisted that it be all about us, our home and our expectations. I wanted there to be no doubt in his mind how our home works. We are now branching out to organized classes (we did home training, hikes, etc- just the focus was always new dog and family only) and other people entering our world. I think I have a pretty happy, well adjusted dog. Beast had the same 6 month focus period and it served him well too. My kids were even younger then....Girl was 2 when he arrived. It takes time consistency and commitment but the payoff is very worth it!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I'd agree some folks take offense, apparently, to the name, without even bothering to read the procedure though.


Let's call it the 2 week transition, or adjustment, or something else.

It would be nice if we could use common courtesy and not call something members recommend "stupid."


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd recommend controlling the dog's environment so that he doesn't get into a barking/lunging mode first. And congratulations he is not dog aggressive- that is really super and means one less thing you have to worry about. 

Being defensive/aggressive at the vet is not unusual. Nor is being defensive in the home. He already knows this is your home and will challenge visitors unless you teach him proper behavior. First, put him away when visitors come over. In a separate room for now. Give him a couple weeks to get used to you and his new situation before you put him in a situation where he needs to see people outside of your immediate (home) family.

After a couple weeks, you can start working on training him. You'll need to decide how much training and how much management you want to take on. You can teach him proper door greeting behavior with a "place" command or a down-stay or just by sending him to his crate when visitors are over. You can teach him a focused heel or an "off" command to settle down around strangers outside the home.

And it is very likely the dog will have NO issues with your family and be very affectionate with those he knows. It is the strangers that may cause issues and you simply need to teach the dog proper behavior or leash/manage his environment so that he doesn't have access to strangers who are visiting, etc. 

A dog that is aggressive to strangers coming in the home or at the vets (there's some serious bad juju at the vets for many dogs) is not a dog that is aggressive to family- unless you have seen other signs of issues.

Give him a chance, and let him relax for a week or two. You've never seen a dog behave this way, but it isn't that uncommon. I'd say you have a good, solid GSD on your hands that could go pretty far with proper training. But more important than anything is not allowing this to escalate. Let him relax for a while and get to know you. This behavior is unlikely to go away completely without training, but it may dissipate with time alone.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> I'd recommend controlling the dog's environment....
> 
> ...Give him a chance, and let him relax for a week or two.


And keep a muzzle handy !


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Yet you then say
> That is your opinion but what's interesting is then you go on to recommend, basically, a "shut down", whether you want to call it such or not.
> 
> Um...this _is_ the "two week shut down". Maybe two weeks is longer than you have in mind but that transition time is usually necessary to avoid things like what have already occurred.
> ...


I most certainly do not do any version of your shut down. I just got a new foster today and she's shockingly running around loose in the house with my dogs. I've already had her out for a car ride too. I would have had her out and about walking with my dogs and to the store for socialization, but the weather is really nasty out and will have to wait until tomorrow. I want her to meet people and learn new manners right away.

** comment removed by ADMIN. Rude and not very helpful**


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah Elaine, but you give me too much credit. I didn't devise, or write it. Oddly, the best successes we hear of are when our adopters utilize this method for integrating their newly adopted dogs into their homes 

Your Adopted Dog: The First Two Weeks | HugABull

Crating/Two Week Shutdown Day 4 with Joey

"Two Week Shutdown" |

Dont Bully My Breed

"Two week shutdown" question - DogForum.net | Dog Forums and Community

Newbie needs advice: My dogs are snarling at each other - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums

Even dobie owners!
Two week shutdown? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Rottie owners!
Training & Behavior

I think you're going to be really busy going to all these places to tell them how "silly" and "bizarre" this stuff is 

Oh, a cat forum, now!
http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245314/dog-starting-to-show-aggression

BTW I could list hundreds more references, but I'm sure you get the point


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

RebeccaMac said:


> Frankly, I think the vet was frightened of him or generally disinterested. We are "between" vets right now (ours moved) and we were unfamiliar with this one. He showed little interest in speaking about the issue and just mentioned that shepherds are notorious "fear biters".
> 
> The biggest concern is whether or not he is a risk to the child. I'll speak with my husband about the situation.
> 
> The stories and advice are appreciated. The more the better.


Hi Rebecca,

I am not an expert, and I am very new to this forum and to owning a dog. However I would like to offer some advice, please know that my intentions are good and I want what is best for both your family and the dog.

First of all I would like you to imagine what life is like for your dog, put yourself in his shoes. Imagine you have been passed from pillar to post in your 4 short years, never having a truly loving home. Then one day, you are introduced to a family who are very loving and give you the best home you could wish for. The next day, strangers come to your home, the other dogs are going crazy, you dont have a clue whether this is a threat to your new family, a threat to you, or someone trying to take over your territory. you also dont know if it is simply friends or family of your new owners.

German shepherds are known for their loyalty and courage, it only makes sense for them to become defensive when they are threatened. As humans, we understand what is going on, but dogs dont, so they react, rather than logically thinking about the situation.

I would now like to offer some advice for helping you with this dog, First of all establishing yourself as the pack leader, so your dog doesnt feel he has to.

1. NILIF - Nothing In Life Is Free. I think a good way to show your dog that you are the pack leader is to feed them yourself, this shows them that YOU are in charge of supplying their food. Along with this comes making them work for their food, you said that your dog knows sit, down and stay. tell him to do this things before giving him food, and dont give him it all at once, make his meal a glorified training exercise, thus showing him that you have the authority and not him. Use this to teach him new tricks at the same time, so that this does not become monotonous.

2. Shut down - as mentioned, a shut down is a good way of slowly introducing your dog to new things. Whatever method you use, be consistent, and do not overwhelm your dog, thus bringing him to a heightened state of excitement. Try keeping him indoors for a few days and slowly allow visitations, first by using the same person, for example your sister as she is not afraid of him, and then as his exitement for visitors drops, introduce other people. This may be a difficult task as you should ideally spend a few days on this and as we know that is not always a viable option, but give it a try. use calming and distraction techniques, along with rewards for good behaviour.

3. Keep him leashed AT ALL TIMES. I believe this is a follow on from the shut down theory, what we are teaching the dog here, is that YOU control where he goes, he has to look to YOU for direction, thus promoting yourself to pack leader in his eyes, and removing the need for him to "Protect" you.

4. Herding, This I would like to hope would calm down once the dog learns his place within the family, but if it doesn't, you could try a number of corrections. Set up a controlled environment in which your dog may think about "Herding" your daughter. Have your daughter walk the path she would normally walk and then as soon as the dog looks at her, and you think he might start herding, Firstly shout "AH, AH!" use in a firm, loud manner (Not too loud so your neighbours can hear, but loud enough so that he knows you mean business). At once your daughter should stop and stand still, ignoring any actions of the dog. If your dog listens to you and ceases the herding behaviour, praise him and give him a treat. keep repeating this exercise until the dog gets it. if the dog does not listen to you when you shout, then remove him from the environment so that he can think about what he has done to cause him to be away from his family.

Obviously the herding behaviour is of number one importance since you can deal with the rest, however hopefully by following the advice i have offered, you should see a change in all of these areas.

Dogs are very smart, (especially GSD's) if they are shown that there is nothing to be afraid of, then they will usually settle in nicely, but this does take time, and patience.

The advice I have offered has come from books and other trainers experiences working with dogs, if they do not work, along with some other ideas posted in this thread, please seek advice from a PROFESSIONAL trainer, rather than a vet, when it comes to behavioural issues. also please do not take, one persons opinion, have the dog checked out by a number of individuals, before making any decisions. It may be that the dog is completely healthy and simple needs time and socialisation, or or may mean that the dog has serious psychological issues that can never be resolved.

I look forward to hearing how you get one with your dog


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Well Marc, you might be new to the forum and new as a GSD owner, but your post was beautifully written! 

Lots and lots of wonderful information, advice, suggestions, and your own experience. 

I have one other thing to add to the "herding / nipping." OP - Until you've got solid training with the dog, please don't let /encourage kids / adults to rough house with him. That will simply put him over the top way to quickly. 

I didn't rough house with Kyleigh until she was about a year old. I wanted to make sure that I had a solid understanding of her reactions / lack of reactions, etc. And I now have a solid "OFF" switch on her ... I can get her all riled up, and then stop and say ENOUGH and she's done, and knows that play time is done. This "training" takes a while to get to when you have a high energy dog! I do not let ANYONE else rough house with her, just me.

Have fun with your puppies - both of you!!!

And welcome to both of you, I think I missed those threads!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RebeccaMac said:


> I've never witnessed that kind of behavior in an animal to be frank. We took him to the vet today and he greeted dogs in a friendly way but barked a little at the people in the lobby. Once we got into the room however and the vet entered it was serious barking and lunging again. (still no snarling, growling or baring of teeth). They could not examine him in the room with us.
> 
> The took him to a separate room in the back to get checked out and once he was out of the room with us immediately calmed. No barking no aggressive reactions nothing. They muzzled him out of concern however but he said he was fine once not in the room with us.
> 
> The vet said his behavior is dangerous and doesn't think he should be around my little one. He recommended returning him to animal control as a human aggressive dog. He said protectiveness at that level could indicate prior abuse or inappropriate training and that could be turned against my child. I was hesitant to turn him back in to animal control as I know they would euthanize him. The vet even suggested that may be best!


I'm just going to address the vet part of this. 

Dogs rely more on their nose than any other sense. It smells like illness and fear and they pick up on that.

First, many animals act up with the owners in the room. Ask any vet or vet tech. They feed off the owners anxiety and the "ohh...it's ok baby" comforting thing many owners do. My husband is not allowed to handle the dogs because he does that.

Second, it's not uncommon for animals to be scared when at the vet. Our boxers back under a chair and shake. Jax cooperates, and used to be very good there until she had to stay the night at a vet's office, but now she's very nervous and pulls me out the door.

And that behavior, in the home and at the vet, is probably NOT protectiveness for you. It's probably fear and anxiety for himself.

Your vet is NOT a behaviorist or a trainer and I hate it when vets give out training/behavior evals. Just because your dog was barking and lunging at strangers, does NOT mean he would hurt your child. *Find a good trainer *and maybe a vet that doesn't have issues with GSDs.

As far as the two week shut down that msvette refers to...she is not the only one that does that and I've heard good things about it. It certainly is not going to hurt the dog in any way. Here is a really good description of it
http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I highly recommend the two-week shutdown as described by msvette.
> 
> However, I think we ought to find a different name for this method, as "shutdown" sounds so harsh, when the process is about the safety and well-being of the DOG as well as the family.


Maybe call it a "settling in period"?

I would hope a good rescue would instruct an emphasise the importance of this. I would find another vet. I have to drive 45 minutes to find a vet I really like, who is very comfortable with GSD's and agrees with my feelings about spay/neuter, vacs and food.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It can take dogs 6 weeks or more to fully bond and be integrated into a household. We recommend when adult or more mature dogs are imported that the new owner take at least this amount of time to allow the dog to adjust to them and their new lives before they start doing serious training. These are dogs coming out of good situations and not dogs that have been placed in shelters or passed from home to home (though some are). I agree with the "shut down" (terrible name, btw since it sounds like they are being locked into solitary  ) concept and hope the OP listens to these recommendations. I might be less stringent in a household with no small children and no other pets, but that is not the case for the OP.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Elaine said:


> I most certainly do not do any version of your shut down. I just got a new foster today and she's shockingly running around loose in the house with my dogs. I've already had her out for a car ride too. I would have had her out and about walking with my dogs and to the store for socialization, but the weather is really nasty out and will have to wait until tomorrow. I want her to meet people and learn new manners right away.


Like with any training tool there are people who are for an against. I have had two trainers recommend against. With some very valid points. Shepherds being social animals like to be with people locking them up for two weeks can be harsh punishment and cause issues. I once read an article about keeping a learning toolbox because each person an animal learn differently. So I keep the two week shut down in the back of my toolbox in case I run across a dog I need to use it on, but for the sweetheart shepherd I just adopted shutting her out for two weeks would have just crushed her. 

I think the thing people need to remember is just like people not all dogs are alike. That two week shutdown from what I can find was created for the Bully breeds which have totally different personalitites than Shepherds... 

I would recommend anyone having trouble with a new rescue to contact the rescue and ask for help. Many have trainers that they contact and get a more personalized response rather than well meaning but potentionally harmful recommendations picked up over the internet.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

What a nice post Shepherdmom! Hopefully it will work at keeping some of the tension out of this thread!

Hope you had a great thanksgiving!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, of course you need to tailor the method to the dog.
No one is suggesting this is done with all dogs, especially those that are fine from the get go. It may be just the thing, however, for a stressed, overstimulated new dog that is acting up. 
No tool works on everything, and no one is suggesting that it does. I think all recommendations here come with a big YMMV.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Shepherds being social animals like to be with people locking them up for two weeks can be harsh punishment and cause issues.


If anyone bothered to read the "shut down" they'd realize you _don't_ lock the dog away for two weeks. That's the whole POINT. 

It's really a huge misunderstanding of the tool. And anyone who knows pit bulls knows they are bigger love sponges than GSDs, oftentimes, especially a new dog to your home.
Before making such statements as "lock away the dog", please read through the articles.

You'll be surprised that you spend A LOT of 1:1 time with the dog when you do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Marc said:


> Hi Rebecca,
> 
> I am not an expert, and I am very new to this forum and to owning a dog. However I would like to offer some advice, please know that my intentions are good and I want what is best for both your family and the dog.
> 
> ...


Excellent post


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> Shepherds being social animals like to be with people locking them up for two weeks can be harsh punishment and cause issues.


:thinking: Who's advocating locking up a dog for two weeks? It's just a settling in period, nothing more - it does not involve isolating the dog. Even if every rescue doesn't NEED it, it certainly wouldn't be harmful either. I think a lot of people have decided this is a bad idea without even bothering to read about exactly what it entails. :shrug:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I think a lot of people have decided this is a bad idea without even bothering to read about exactly what it entails.


I've certainly found that the biggest naysayers seem to have _no idea_ what the "settling in" period entails!

One of the biggest benefits of that (as hundreds of other references can attest) is the dog is able to see how the home works without being a direct part of it.
It's tremendously beneficial especially when you have kids, that the dogs view how the "pack structure" works, before being in direct contact, and often _conflict_, with the pack.

The most ironic part of this is that people come on here saying "my new dog is NOT working out, HELP!" and the anti-"shut down" people say "OH don't do this!". 

Well, what they've been doing is not working, so we recommend they go out on a limb and give it a try, what can it hurt?? Nothing.
What can it fix? Potentially _everything._

**Another huge part of the "settling in routine" is leashing the dog at all times. I have no idea why this works so well but it does, and it's a _primary_ part of the routine. When the dog is not crated, it is leashed to you. If you're single, have no kids, and have no other pets in the home, leash the dog and "wear it"


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, of course you need to tailor the method to the dog.
> No one is suggesting this is done with all dogs, especially those that are fine from the get go. It may be just the thing, however, for a stressed, overstimulated new dog that is acting up.
> 
> It may be, or it may make things worse... all I'm saying is be really careful which tools you use on which dogs.
> ...


No doubt about that.  

Kyleigh : Happy Thanksgiving to you also!!! Have a wonderful weekend. 
I'm off to brave the shopping crowds.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Who's advocating locking up a dog for two weeks? It's just a settling in period, nothing more - it does not involve isolating the dog. Even if every rescue doesn't NEED it, it certainly wouldn't be harmful either. I think a lot of people have decided this is a bad idea without even bothering to read about exactly what it entails. :shrug:


From the two week shutdown posted here: "I crate the dog in a room by itself if possible.(Believe me, dogs are sensory animals, they know more than you think without seeing it)".

^^^^ This right here is what I have a problem with. I absolutely think avoiding stressful situations for the first two weeks is a good idea but I don't agree with crating the dog by itself.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yes, but that doesn't mean the dog is crated by itself all the time!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It doesn't harm a dog to learn to be on it's own, either. At some point it will have to be "by itself", and while you are in the house is a good way to start.

That said, when we adopted an adult GSD, we crated him right in the front room. It worked just fine. 

The shut down is not a "set in stone" formula. Just like any tool it can be tailor made to the situation and the dog.

Some dogs don't need it. Others - can't settle into a home without it.
To write it off completely because you didn't like one part, makes no sense.
Besides, some dogs do need that much "down time", it all depends on the dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

From the first link:



> Imagine it from the dog’s point of view. He might like you, but he doesn’t know you yet. He’s facing new people, new routines, and new rules all at once. He’s stressed, and every additional challenge adds to the stress. Just like a human, our dog may react by becoming defensive and short-tempered, or fearful and shy.
> 
> You can make this transition easier on him by *taking things slowly*, and simplifying the introduction process. We call this the “Two Week Shutdown”. During these first weeks, *avoid unnecessary stressors* while the dog settles in, keep everything positive, and take it slowly.
> 
> ...


How could that possibly be harmful?


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I think some people see the 2 week shut down as a form of sensory deprivation torture like those that cause Stockholm Syndrome.

Every dog is different and some may not need this, and others a variation of it. I have had Benny since a pup and occasionally when he got real amped up over things going on in the house would crate him and put a sheet over the crate. This gave him a chance to calm himself down without isolating him


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> I think the thing people need to remember is just like people not all dogs are alike. That two week shutdown from what I can find was created for the Bully breeds which have totally different personalitites than Shepherds...


Two Week Shut Down from a GSD rescue site
http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Michelle is right, it works for any and all breeds.
Plus I find it vastly interesting that we intro'ed all new fosters into our home just like this - for their safety and our own dog's safety...no matter what the breed...before we knew it was a "method"!

Anyone who has brought a foster or adopted dog home and had things go south _immediately_ has done it. 
Or they brought the dog back to the shelter, hardly a viable option, IMO, unless things were _really_ bad. Instead of tempting fate, we integrate them the same way and it rarely fails.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

So essentially the "two week shut down" is the same thing that I would do with a new puppy. Makes sense to me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

dogsnkiddos said:


> So we took 6 MONTHS of just us and our family. We mostly did not have folks over, but if we did Mason was crated in another room with the door closed. He is SUPER friendly and well adjusted and I still insisted that it be all about us, our home and our expectations. I wanted there to be no doubt in his mind how our home works. We are now branching out to organized classes (we did home training, hikes, etc- just the focus was always new dog and family only) and other people entering our world. I think I have a pretty happy, well adjusted dog. Beast had the same 6 month focus period and it served him well too. My kids were even younger then....Girl was 2 when he arrived. It takes time consistency and commitment but the payoff is very worth it!





shepherdmom said:


> From the two week shutdown posted here: "I crate the dog in a room by itself if possible.(Believe me, dogs are sensory animals, they know more than you think without seeing it)".
> 
> ^^^^ This right here is what I have a problem with. I absolutely think avoiding stressful situations for the first two weeks is a good idea but I don't agree with crating the dog by itself.


I do, if the household is noisy and busy.
Even a dog needs some peace and quiet. 

When Hans was a little puppy I always crated him somewhere else for his naps, otherwise he wouldn't get the good, deep sleep he needed.
This isn't about isolating the dog, it is about giving him some breathing room.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> From the first link:
> How could that possibly be harmful?


I had one trainer tell me it was a terrible thing to do to a shepherd, so when I adopted Tasha I asked the rescue to comment on the two week shut down... Not only was their expert kind enough to answer me in a long email but also comment on it in a blog post. From the Sticky Dog Blog..

"_PS. I have seen a protocol called a "two week shutdown" several websites promote. Some rescues insist on it for all adopters. There seems to be some debate over it's worth. Some people swear by it, some people swear at it._

_I don't see the benefit in *any* form of isolation, the feeling of abandonment and separation from the pack is probably in my view one of the most painful and emotionally punishing ways to distress a dog, a pack animal. _
_*Do not* isolate the dog in the back yard, or the laundry room, or the spare bedroom either. Spend loving time growing your new dog to be the best he can be."_


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmmm...I see the point in what you are saying, shepherdmom, and don't disagree. But I don't think there is a single thing I've ever learned that I didn't modify to some extent.

The dog is supposed to be watching what is going on in the house, out playing with the owner...just not overwhelmed with new experiences like other animals, new places, training, etc. That allows the dog to chill out a bit and bond with the owner. So if you don't like the "isolation" part, why not set up a crate in the area that everyone is in AND one in a quiet room so the dog can have down time if need be?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess the expert doesn't believe in teaching the dog to be OK with alone time.
I think it is important for the dog to be OK by himself. Separation anxiety is not pleasant, and if the dog can't handle separation, that's a sign that he needs more of it.

There have been times when we absolutely could not come home and Hans had to spend time alone, and it was nice to find him sleeping and content when we returned. I contrast this with my parents' dogs who treated them to a screeching whine fest when they would return.

We can probably go around and around on this. I remember similar discussions on parenting boards by people who advocated attachment parenting and those who felt it was important for the child to learn to self soothe. 

No one budged on their POV there, either


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I do, if the household is noisy and busy.
> Even a dog needs some peace and quiet.
> 
> When Hans was a little puppy I always crated him somewhere else for his naps, otherwise he wouldn't get the good, deep sleep he needed.
> This isn't about isolating the dog, it is about giving him some breathing room.


Everyone see's it differently. I choose not to use that particular tool with Tasha. It was not necesary and would have IMO caused her great distress.. She had a place to retreat if she wanted it (a crate with an open door) but she was never locked in. 

Ivan was crated at night when he was a puppy. The crate was in our bedroom next to the bed.. During the day he was always with me. I leashed him to me at times to keep him out of trouble.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> hmmmm...I see the point in what you are saying, shepherdmom, and don't disagree. But I don't think there is a single thing I've ever learned that I didn't modify to some extent.
> 
> The dog is supposed to be watching what is going on in the house, out playing with the owner...just not overwhelmed with new experiences like other animals, new places, training, etc. That allows the dog to chill out a bit and bond with the owner. So if you don't like the "isolation" part, why not set up a crate in the area that everyone is in AND one in a quiet room so the dog can have down time if need be?


That is pretty much what I said several pages back Michelle, It is a tool that is available to use and works for some dogs. I suggested that the OP talk to the trainer at the rescue they got the dog from to see if they had any suggestions because the trainer that worked with the dog would know better than any of us what the OP's particular dog would need.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Ivan was crated at night when he was a puppy. The crate was in our bedroom next to the bed.. During the day he was always with me. I leashed him to me at times to keep him out of trouble.


Same here.
Until he got so big that he made noise at night and woke me up 

We no longer crate him at night or during the day. He stays in his roomy expen on his comfy bed. I really should crate him more often because he needs to be used to that, too.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I guess the expert doesn't believe in teaching the dog to be OK with alone time.
> I think it is important for the dog to be OK by himself. Separation anxiety is not pleasant, and if the dog can't handle separation, that's a sign that he needs more of it.
> 
> It depends on the dog your working with IMO. My Tasha was a family dog at some point who at 7 wound up in a shelter. Living in a mostly outdoor shelter she would pace the fence and bark. She lost her home, her family, and even her tail... The last thing she needed when she came to me was more separation. She needed to be part of a family again. Ivan came to me as a scared puppy, who had likely been abused. People had hurt him. He was so afraid of people he was on the Euth list. Again the last thing he needed was to be isolated. He needed to know that he was safe and would be protected here. He also needed to be socialized, so after he was used to us he had to learn that other people were ok.
> ...


I don't doubt it.  There are a million different training/parenting methods and we all think our way is the best.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No, the best training method is the one that works for that particular dog.

I think the best trainers recognize the need to be flexible and not stick to a one size fits all approach.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

biggest mistake i see new guardians of rescues make is the "too much too soon" syndrome. each dog is different with respect to how much settling in time they need, but they all can benefit from some variation of a slow introduction to house/family routines and exposure to different environmental situations and new people. some of 'em (but not too many), are perfect from the get-go, most take a bit more patience. lots of great ideas and info/links already in the thread. glad you're not too fond of the vet you took him to, sounds like a change is surely in order. be careful, good luck, take care.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

re the "terminology"...i think some people in the thread are way misinterpreting the "two week shutdown" which has nothing to do with isolation. it's simply a way to avoid bombarding the dog with sensory overload before they've had a chance to acclimate.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> No, the best training method is the one that works for that particular dog.
> 
> I think the best trainers recognize the need to be flexible and not stick to a one size fits all approach.


It also depends on the person doing the training. A hard correction coming from someone who just isn't comfortable doing hard corrections is just not going to work. Which it is why it is so important for a breeder or a rescue to try to mix the correct personalities with the correct dogs.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We have always done some sort of "decompression" introduction with new dogs. Some adjust in a couple of days, some take a couple weeks. We adjust accordingly and always err on the side of caution. We do segregate the new dog, sometimes in a crate in a place they can observe but relax, and some do need the crate in a more isolated area. Once again, we adjust accordingly, if we isolate a dog based on a history we've been given and the dog seems lonely and wants more interaction then we move it in a more accessible area. If the dog seems stressed by the activity around it, then we move him into a quieter area until he feels safe with those surroundings and upgrade the input from there. Or maybe move the crate into a family area but cover with a blanket so they can get used to the sounds and just acclimate. No 2 dogs have ever been exactly the same.
We also do training and daycare with some seriously challenged dogs and do the same things professionally. Most dogs adjust in a few days, but we have had a few that took a week or two to give us the signals that they were ready for more.
I agree that maybe the term "shutdown" is what sets some people off before they even read it, but that is a marketing issue beyond my pay grade .


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

bocron said:


> We have always done some sort of "decompression" introduction with new dogs. Some adjust in a couple of days, some take a couple weeks.
> 
> 
> I agree that maybe the term "shutdown" is what sets some people off before they even read it, but that is a marketing issue beyond my pay grade .


This I believe describes the situation perfectly. For anyone that does not know what the shutdown means, they may well think that it involves complete seperation of the dog, crated for 2 weeks. This is completely not the case.

The "2 week Shut down" is a program designed to cater to people who need step by step instructions on how to handle a dog, it gives you exact rules to follow in order to cater to most owners and thier dogs. The situation this creates, is that all dogs are different and all owners are different. If the two week shut down does not work with you or your dog, then alter it to cater to your needs. You are working with live animals, there is no exact science, if you think that areas of the "2 week shut down" are "harsh" or "cruel", or may not even work with your dog, then create a solution that will accomplish the same thing, in a different manner.

Personally with my dog, I got her at 7 weeks, she had her first injection at 8 weeks, second injection at 10 weeks and was finally allowed to go for walks at 11 weeks, so I was almost forced into a 4 week shut down. I used this period to introduce her to family and friends in a controlled environment, making sure that I only allowed them to greet her when she was calm. When friends came round to visit and she got boisterous, I would crate her. This was never a problem since she loves her crate and toys. I would also kee her leashed a lot of the time, for example, last night we had 10 people coming round, this was extremely exciting for her, so I made sure to keep her leashed the entire night. This was mainly for safety reasons, as we had a lot of wine glasses on low tables. there have been nights when we have had other people round and she has been allowed to stay off leash. the important thing to remember is simply not to overwhelm your dog, especially an adult german shepherd, due to their size and strength, so introduce them to new things gradually, there are many ways to accomplish the results of a stable dog, without adhering to every step of the shut down system, if that is something you dont agree with.

It is important also to remember that a lot of owners who are set against the 2 week shut down, likely have dogs that do not need it (I do not believe my dog needed it) however there are dogs that DO need it, and so this formula should not be discouraged just because someone does not like the methods involved. we have to use whatever methods needed to achieve the result of a well behaved dog, and it is our job as TRAINERS to work out what is the best (and by that I mean what the dog responds to, as well as what is good for the dog. For example, if your dog is doing a negative behaviour, you may quickly discourage this by violently beat it, however this creates psychological problems in your dog that can not quickly be reversed, and gives the dog a miserable life, rather than a happy one. So bear this in mind, when considering training methods) form of training for our SPECIFIC dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The "trainer" has no idea of which they speak. If they did, they would not refer to it as "isolation"; and they'd also not be paranoid about a dog learning that it can be left alone and survive.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I like the "decompression period" or "settling in period" name better. 

I find that some people are just more intuitively aware of what a dog needs, while, as pointed out, others do better with a step-by-step process to follow. 

For example, I remember asking someone about their border collie at a dog park. We just got her today from the shelter!! They proudly explained. I just smiled and nodded, but in the back of my mind I was screaming at them:

"You just adopted her today, you don't know ANYTHING about this dog, and the first thing you do is bring her to a dog park and let her run loose? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING????"

Sorta trying to give people some guideline about starting off slow and low-key with their newly adopted dog is not a bad thing . . .


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> For example, I remember asking someone about their border collie at a dog park. We just got her today from the shelter!! They proudly explained. I just smiled and nodded, but in the back of my mind I was screaming at them:
> 
> "You just adopted her today, you don't know ANYTHING about this dog, and the first thing you do is bring her to a dog park and let her run loose? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING????"


Amazing self-control you have there . This is why I quit going to public dog parks, I found myself having to internalize all kinds of stuff and I would leave just wanting to explode!


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

"I agree that maybe the term "shutdown" is what sets some people off before they even read it, but that is a marketing issue beyond my pay grade ."

(made me laugh)


Yes there is the *shutdown* a dog will do itself if over commanded to point of confusion and after avoidance doesn't help clue the handler into "this ain't working!" (too much compulsion can cause this)...so reading 2 week shutdown does make one cringe if you remember old school ways from before new school ways existed.

It can easily take 3-4 weeks of "dating" before the newbie is confident his/her needs will be met and then the real character can shine through, and a honeymoon may not be the outcome one wished for, especially if not enough time was taken to sort the hierarchy of this pack, now in conflict as it absorbs the intruder. (Not all members may think this is a good thing) 

Using a crate for management and quiet time, keeping it simple until some bond begins to grow, all these things sound sane to me. 

There is a lot of prejudice in our society against our breed, and it can affect folks' reactions. Your vet hasn't ever owned one, I'll bet. 

I understand your concerns, telling kids not to run isn't likely to work all the time, and it can trigger unwanted herding or worse in some and that is
worrisome. Taking it all slower might have prevented that altogether, but it happened, and so it's a worry, but if you back up, slow down and work on the bond, over time it can be overcome.

Employ a lot of praise whenever appropriate, you should see improvement rather quickly. If it's all too much, you'll have to punt, but you aren't there yet, or he'd already be gone.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> I like the "decompression period" or "settling in period" name better.
> 
> I find that some people are just more intuitively aware of what a dog needs, while, as pointed out, others do better with a step-by-step process to follow.
> 
> ...


I find this comes from humanizing dogs and forgetting they are animals and will do just fine if crated. 
I'm sure you've run across plenty of folks who are totally anti-crate and I always wonder...what if you got sick or a family member passed and/or you had to fly somewhere _with_ your dog? It would have to be crated, and likely will at _some _point in it's life. But we get plenty of dogs in foster who've never been intro'ed to a crate in their entire life.

We always recommend crating, to our adopters, too, because last thing I want is newly adopted Rover to chew an expensive pair of shoes and get returned over it.
At least lay the foundation...

I see the "decompression period" as laying the foundation for the rest of the dog's time in the home.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I will take the word of two different trainers both experienced, well respected, good recomendations one from a trusted 501(c)3 rescue, the other from my vet.. over random internet people. When they both tell me isolating for two weeks is BAD then I feel the need to question that tool. I can see situations where it might be helpful but I can also see how it can be used wrong and could be harmful. 

I hope the op and others who are following this thread go and talk to trusted experts before attempting a "shut down".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> isolating for two weeks is BAD


Isolating IS bad! I totally agree!

Do you honestly think you stick the dog in a bedroom by itself for two weeks, SM? And never visit it? Or walk it? Or play with it?
That would be bad, indeed!! I'd never recommend that 

For those reading, read the _entire_ article, don't just pick out one sentence and think that's what you do it :thumbup:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It seems like some people are stuck on the word "isolate", even though that's not what anyone is suggesting. Since everyone is saying that isolating a dog for 2 weeks is bad, I'm not sure what the arguing is about - it sounds like complete agreement to me!

I did 2 DAYS of _Social_ Isolation (from the K9deb website) with Cassidy before starting NILIF, and it totally turned her around. But she was never _physically_ isolated, although she was crate trained, as all of my dogs since then have been. She was our oldest puppy, 20 weeks old when we got her.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I will take the word of two different trainers both experienced, well respected, good recomendations one from a trusted 501(c)3 rescue, the other from my vet.. over random internet people. When they both tell me isolating for two weeks is BAD then I feel the need to question that tool. I can see situations where it might be helpful but I can also see how it can be used wrong and could be harmful.
> 
> I hope the op and others who are following this thread go and talk to trusted experts before attempting a "shut down".


Please explain, in your opinion, exactly what the 2 week "'shutdown" program involves.
I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> Please explain, in your opinion, exactly what the 2 week "'shutdown" program involves.
> *I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.*


I _know_ we're not! :crazy:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I will take the word of two different trainers both experienced, well respected, good recomendations one from a trusted 501(c)3 rescue, the other from my vet.. over random internet people. When they both tell me isolating for two weeks is BAD then I feel the need to question that tool. I can see situations where it might be helpful but I can also see how it can be used wrong and could be harmful.


The "shutdown" or "settling in" period does not involve isolating a dog for two weeks. If that is the take-home message after reading the instructions for the process, maybe it needs to be re-written in order to emphasize that this is NOT about isolation.

I actually think it is well-written the way it is, and it makes perfect sense to me. However, we have to take into account all levels of reading comprehension, dog-savvy, etc. Some folks simply get overwhelmed by a whole page of information and sort of skim through looking for keywords, and "isolation" might be a word that pushes buttons. 

Shepherdmom, did you read it all the way through? What gave you the impression that the method entails two weeks of "isolation"? I'm honestly curious. The write-up does mention periods of isolation in order to help the dog be comfortable by himself and prevent separation anxiety, but did you take that to mean the dog is to be totally isolated the whole two weeks?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm curious, too, where SM got the idea a dog is completely isolated...because if you read the below (I bolded some parts) you see the dog is anything _but_ isolated!




> *I take it out on a leash (so I don’t have to correct it ..I don’t have that right yet!), I give it exercise time in the yard, *
> I do no training at all, just *fun exercise and maybe throw some toys for fun, *leash the dog if you don’t have a fence outside. But I DO NOT leave my yard, AT ALL.
> No car rides, no other dogs, (unless crated beside them), no pet stores, no WALKS even, nothing but *me, my home, my yard. *(Unless of course the dog needs to go to the veterinarian)
> Believe me dogs can live two weeks without walks. Walks are stressful for there is so much coming at you! And the new person you have no clue who they are yet. The dog may react to something and we start correcting it with the leash and we just installed a VERY STRESSFUL moment to the dog!
> ...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Please explain, in your opinion, exactly what the 2 week "'shutdown" program involves.
> I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.


Rather than answer everyones messages seperately I'm going to try and answer all with the same message. 

First off yes, I read the entire two week shut down, I also forwarded it to the trainer exactly as it was posted here. I also went out to other sites and read several versions of it, which all pretty much say the same thing. Put dog in crate, let dog out to play, go potty, and to eat. Otherwise keep dog in crate away from action, so dog can watch and process what is going on. Am I misunderstanding? If I am maybe it should be re-worded. Because the other people I posted it too picked up on the exact same thing I did without any prompting from me. 

Please understand I'm not trashing the entire two week shut down, I think it has some really good points and it is a tool like any other if used properly with the right dog might be helpful, but if used improperly on a needy dog it could be damaging. Which is why I'm saying someone without experience, or with some experience like me (not an expert) should talk to their rescues and trainers to find out what they recommend and how it should be modified for the dog they are adopting. 

Maybe I'm overly cautious, but after a bad experience myself... I want to make sure I do everything I can to get it right.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hope the op can ascertain what most of us mean, 'cause the theory's a good one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

"Needy" dogs need it even more..."needy" is.not a trait to encourage.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> "Needy" dogs need it even more..."needy" is.not a trait to encourage.


So you lock them up in a crate and make them watch for two weeks? 

Nope not happening in my house. This is how my needy dogs get treated.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is not like that and we've all tried to explain it, and you refuse to acknowledge that...after everyone has tried.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is the last of our own personal dogs we did a "two week shut down" due to his horrible past and situation when we got him.

And this is just days into the "shut down". Look what a miserable poor dog he is, all isolated! How tragic is this?


















(so sad and lonesome!!!!)









You can continue to choose deliberately to misunderstand and distort it, that's not our issue, though. And advising people to avoid it based on your distortions is really a disservice to them and their dogs.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This is the last of our own personal dogs we did a "two week shut down" due to his horrible past and situation when we got him.
> 
> And this is just days into the "shut down". Look what a miserable poor dog he is, all isolated! How tragic is this?
> 
> ...


Beautiful dog! 

Please quote where I have told people to avoid the two week shut down? You know that I had a bad experience, and that is how I found this board, so I made sure when I got Tasha to ask very specific questions on how to introduce and how to make things as smooth as possible for her. I wanted to make sure and get it right. I am sharing what I was told.

I have said repeatedly that I am not attacking the shut down. I am not and have never claimed to be an expert. I am just sharing what I have been told by the experts I talked to and am suggesting that the OP talk to their rescue experts.

As a rescue yourself, you know the dogs you place and the people you are placing them with. Wouldn't you rather have them call you, than ask for help from random people on the internet who were not involved in the situation and might not have all the facts?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

?? What is this if not an attack?


> So you lock them up in a crate and make them watch for two weeks?


That's like saying prong collars are "vicious torture devices". It's not only unfair it's extremely inaccurate. 

And that's the vein in which you have referred to the two week shut down every time you discuss it. _All_ your comment tells me is you _still_ don't understand what it's about, or how it works.
I posted the photos to show you that it's not about isolation, far far from it. I'm sad you still refer to it as such, and, again, it's totally inaccurate for you to do so.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> ?? What is this if not an attack?
> 
> It is what the two week shut down tells you to do.
> 
> ...


How would you have me refer to it if not isolation? What do you call keeping the dog away from the pack? I would like to point you to again the response the expert gave after reading the two week shutdown. 

"_I have seen a protocol called a "two week shutdown" several websites promote. Some rescues insist on it for all adopters. There seems to be some debate over it's worth. Some people swear by it, some people swear at it._
_I don't see the benefit in *any* form of isolation, the feeling of abandonment and separation from the pack is probably in my view one of the most painful and emotionally punishing ways to distress a dog, a pack animal. _
Apparently I am not the only one who is thinks it is isolation. Look arguing about this is getting us nowhere. Please understand I am not attacking you. As Sunflower said two or three pages ago... 

"We can probably go around and around on this. I remember similar discussions on parenting boards by people who advocated attachment parenting and those who felt it was important for the child to learn to self soothe. 

No one budged on their POV there, either "

Enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend. I am going to bed it is way past my bedtime.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

the 2 week shutdown is just basically an adjustment period from rescue/shelter to new home... dogs do get overwhelmed.. take a dog out of a shelter into a home and the dog needs to de stress from shelter life to a home life instead of concrete floors and 24/7 barking... its just a way to let the dog see how the house works , and just gives the dog time to adjust to the new home. i dont do it with puppies, but i do do it with any dog i bring here, i might not do the entire 2 week, it all depends on the dog... some dogs need this, especially to learn who is in charge- you dont want the dog in charge as that can turn out bad..

and for every trainer that agrees with this method you will find those that dont. two trainers can always agree the third isnt doiing training right lol...

you dont put the dog in a crate and lock him in there, you just give him a safe place to go should he be stressed so he can relax and watch what is going on...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

sm, the way to stop an argument is to just stop arguing. just sayin', imho.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> You know that I had a bad experience,


What was your bad experience, and how does it relate to the "shutdown"? I must have missed that thread.



> As a rescue yourself, you know the dogs you place and the people you are placing them with. Wouldn't you rather have them call you, than ask for help from random people on the internet who were not involved in the situation and might not have all the facts?


It's interesting that when someone has a question or concern, they come here in hopes of finding knowledgable and experienced answers. But when they disagree with something, we're just "random people on the internet".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I don't see the benefit in any form of isolation, the feeling of abandonment and separation from the pack is probably in my view one of the most painful and emotionally punishing ways to distress a dog, a pack animal.


This is so funny...because 1) you/your dogs are _not _the new dog's pack yet. That's the whole point; and 2) what do you do when you leave? As in...go shopping...go to work...??
Do you leave the brand new dog, straight from the shelter, with your own dogs? Do you leave that dog you've had a mere day, or days, out loose in the house, when you don't even know it, or how it will react to you being gone? Ask Pachon how that went! 

That's what crating a dog and leaving for work (like millions of us do) does! Separates the new dog from the "pack". 

** comments removed by Admin. Sarcasm does nothing to further a discussion. **


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

We also recommend a form of the two week shutdown to transition dogs into their new homes. There are a few dogs that don't need it, but the majority do. The adoption contract even specifies that the dogs should be exposed to new situations gradually. The adjustment usually goes smoothly when people follow the advice.

Problems usually occur when people insist on dumping everything on the dog during the first week, family, guests, training, Petsmart, bath, vet... The dog is stressed out and overstimulated: chewing something up, accidents or a nip and the dog goes back to rescue because he/she is not as perfect as the dog they had for 10+ years.
The other problem class is people who refuse crating. While there is a dog here and there who will be safe in the home from the get go, most benefit from crating during the adjustment period. The opponents of crating are the first to return the dog for the first mistake.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Freestep said:


> It's interesting that when someone has a question or concern, they come here in hopes of finding knowledgeable and experienced answers. But when they disagree with something, we're just "random people on the internet".


Among these "random people" on the internet are many experienced knowledgeable trainers, breeders, rescue people willing to share their advice. Because of them I learned to question my vet and eventually find a new one; learned that Benny at 15 months was not dominant , dangerous, and a ticking time bomb, like the positive only trainer had said; found a balanced trainer who help me train Benny to be a great companion, go almost everywhere dog; and have good ideas about what to look for in a breeder when it comes to getting my next pup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are a thousand different ways to train a dog. What works for one person and one dog may not work for another and nobody needs to have something they don't believe in shoved down their throats and then insulted when they don't want to follow it. This is why people don't ask for advice on here anymore. The thread was about the OP's dog, possible fear reactivity and aggression at the vet

...instead it's pages and pages of trying to make Shepherdmom believe in one particular training method and insulting her because she doesn't.

So...does anyone actually have advice for the OP? Who I'm sure has left the board in frustration.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> T
> 
> So...does anyone actually have advice for the OP? Who I'm sure has left the board in frustration.


Anyone?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Um...we gave our advice. 
Most of us were on board with giving the dog plenty of downtime. Which is what this dog needs if it's going to survive in the OPs home.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It should state specifically how much time the dog is crated, where the dog is crated, how many times he is taken out, and for how long.


Well the article has been understood clearly and utilized by hundreds if not thousands, so I don't think that's what's really wrong here.

The article also says some dogs don't need the full 2 weeks, some don't need any, some need more, to "play it by ear" and "listen to the dog". 

In our case, there was no way I was going to integrate a 95lb. dog who'd never lived with other dogs, really, let alone small dogs, into a household with some 6 small dogs by tossing him into the existing pack and saying "sort it out".

While we took the full 2 weeks, each day he was slowly more "integrated". It all depends on the dog.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

My views and suggestion are probably more controversial than the 2 week shut down (which I agree should be implemented in this case)

Working strictly from what was posted it appears to be that the reactivity began after that first uncontrolled reaction to visitors by all the dogs in the house. If the resident dogs are allowed to be chaotic in greeting the new dog is going to be overwhelmed by the experience. Once the limbic system is engaged in a flight or fight response it can take days for a dog to recover. And then the dog had other visitors? And a trip to the vet? 

2 week shut down. Train the other dogs to be mannerly when the doorbell rings or someone knocks and visitors enter. Ramp the atmosphere DOWN before you allow the new dog complete run of the house. Tether the dog to you when he is in the house and out of the crate. Work attention training almost constantly. Introduce to and play with one resident dog at a time. 

Some trainers will say, regarding certain behaviors, "it is only a problem if it is a problem for you." When it comes to greeting guests to my home I completely disagree. When it comes to how a dog reacts to the vet I completely disagree. No other person should be subjected to scary and unmannerly dogs. It matters if it is a problem for other people in those situations. And it matters to the dog. 

IMO. YMMV. All the usual disclaimers.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I have deleted the most recent back and forth arguing about the 2 weeks "shutdown". Let sleeping dogs lie and agree to disagree or I will be sending out warnings. *

*Hopefully the OP is still reading. *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

something else to consider, most dogs in shelters dont show their true colors... some dogs that do well meeting dogs they will live with show well at the shelter and get along great with the resident dog..... then, once the dog is home from the shelter and is finally relaxed, shows some dog reactivity or dog aggression... this is why some folks like to give a dog a few weeks to destress... its called the honeymoon period for some dogs, they act all perfect when you bring them home then once they are comfortable their true colors show (sorta like dating- everyone is on their best behavior in the beginning then once they are comfortable their bad habits come out lol).. i think that since you have resident dogs your new dog is picking up on their behaviors (like how they greet folks at the door) and that isnt a good thing for a new dog... letting the new dog destress will help with behavior issues.. some dogs when stressed will act out, which is what your new dog is doing.. he isnt sure of what he is supposed to do, so he is doing what works for him... you could up his exercise and practice some obedience while leash walking (which will also bond him to you) and work his mind... some dogs will pick up on the resident dogs behaviors, so if your dogs are doing anything naughty and arent being corrected the new dog will see this and figure he can act the same way... which is why for some dogs a destressing time frame is needed..... its not isolation you can use baby gates too and gate the new dog in another room if you dont want to use a crate... some dogs show their true colors immediately, some take a few weeks, and some can take months to finally settle in and show their true colors.. it all depends on the dog itself... i have seen that if a new dog is given solid structure right from the start the transition goes smoother.. a set schedule on feeding/walking/training etc that is in black and white with no grey areas works really well for the new dog...


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

I really hope the OP hasn't stopped reading, because there IS some good advice in this thread.

I experienced a similar thing (albeit on a much smaller scale) with my GSD resuce, Heinz. Took the sad, malnourished dog home, rehabbed him, and for about 4 months everything was great. I thought I had lucked into the world's nicest dog - nothing upset him, I could take him anywhere! He was perfect! 

And then the issues started. My formerly happy-go-lucky, sweet loving dog who would let ANYONE pet him was turning into a barking, threatening monster whenever a new person approached! I thought I had rescued an ill-tempered, aggressive beast who was just now showing his true nature. I was afraid to let him near people. 

Thanks to some threads I found on this forum, and the advice of other experienced dog owners, I sought help at a local boarding kennel with a good training program. Heinz and I had a consult with one of their trainers, who thought that some of his aggressive behavior was due to his overexcitement and my lack of clear instruction. We enrolled in a group obedience class and I learned a lot about working with my dog - mostly how proper timing of the release/reward is everything! 

Anyway, I learned how to make him more comfortable in strange situations by being a good, consistent pack leader (note I didn't say "Alpha") and giving him clear instructions. It helped us immensely. And I learned that if I have to pack a pocket full of treats to distract him when we go into a high stress environment, it's not a moral failing on my part  (I have a very treat-driven dog)

My opinion is that GSDs like to Do Stuff. If you don't provide them with Stuff to do (in the form of a command, or a job, or some kind of redirection), they'll come up with something on their own. Which might not be what you had in mind


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