# Change in performance from helper to helper



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I've noticed some dogs, including my female, vary their performance from helper to helper and I'm trying to determine why. Of couse sometimes its just helper's experience level, but this past weekend a club member got in the blind for the first time ever (brand new to our club and schutzhund aswell) for one of our club president's retired dogs, and the dog's bark and hold was much better than with me (while I'm no seasoned helper, I am working towards being the clubs second helper under close mentorship)... perhaps because this guy is much larger than me? (I'm 5'8, about 140lbs with a light frame, he was maybe 5'10 or more, stocky and guessing around 200lbs). To throw another variable into the mix, he first got in the blind wearing sun glasses.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

The best way I can put it is that some helpers look _boring _standing in the blind, while others have an intensity to them. This is only from watching from the sidelines...  Make yourself look like a threat, and you will be treated like one.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> The best way I can put it is that some helpers look _boring _standing in the blind, while others have an intensity to them. This is only from watching from the sidelines...  Make yourself look like a threat, and you will be treated like one.


I was posturing a little more to the dog than the other guy. The other guy honestly wouldn't know how to posture at the dog or put pressure on him.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Your confidence of understanding the process of bitework and having experience can appear boring 

A new person has lack of confidence and adrenaline flowing through them. The dog smells this and feels the fight is more real or they can be pushier with this guy because the helper is weak


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> Your confidence of understanding the process of bitework and having experience can appear boring
> 
> A new person has lack of confidence and adrenaline flowing through them. The dog smells this and feels the fight is more real or they can be pushier with this guy because the helper is weak


That might be it. I remember the first time I got in the blind for a dog, he just got dirty every time when he doesn't usually get dirty with our regular helper. I wasn't really scared of the dog so much (was around the dog a bunch already, just not as the helper), but really nervous trying to make sure I was going to do what I was supposed to, reward when I was supposed to, etc etc.

Its funny... its sort of like learning to water ski. The first time you do it and fall you forget to let go and get dragged underwater lol. First time I was in the blind, I forget to slip the sleeve lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it depends on a lot of things. My husband tried helperwork once, I knew he wouldn't really get into it but some people in the club wanted him to try. He's 6'4" and 250lbs, very fit and athletic (he plays a ton of sports). We sent a well trained, retired, SchH3 dog in the blind and the dog just pushed my DH around.

I think there always needs to be "reading" the dog and responding correctly. Yes sometimes seasoned helpers, or "trial helpers", or the same helper that always works the dog and isn't thinking outside the box just becomes boring to the dog. But a new helper isn't always more exciting and producing better work. In my DH's case, the dog knew the helper didn't know what he was doing and he let the helper know. So I don't necessarily believe that a new or weak helper is going to bring more fight from the dog. I think the most fight is going to come from a helper that just understands how to read that dog and bring the fight out in a way that draws power and confidence from the dog, regardless of whether the helper is 300 or 150lbs.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

But wait, there's more...

Helpers are human. Even experienced helpers do not read dogs in exactly the same way, and may emphasize different aspects of what they see in the dog. Nor are all helpers equally good at certain things. And how much is the helper _threatening_ the dog vs. _challenging_ the dog vs. _playing_ with the dog? I sometimes talk about the "new helper" effect, where working on a helper the dog doesn't know seems to refresh the dog's work. Some helpers never seem to get boring for certain dogs. Other helpers have a hard time adjusting their presence to fit what is needed on a given dog at a given time (either too much or too little presence).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I think it depends on a lot of things. My husband tried helperwork once, I knew he wouldn't really get into it but some people in the club wanted him to try. He's 6'4" and 250lbs, very fit and athletic (he plays a ton of sports). We sent a well trained, retired, SchH3 dog in the blind and the dog just pushed my DH around.
> 
> I think there always needs to be "reading" the dog and responding correctly. Yes sometimes seasoned helpers, or "trial helpers", or the same helper that always works the dog and isn't thinking outside the box just becomes boring to the dog. But a new helper isn't always more exciting and producing better work. In my DH's case, the dog knew the helper didn't know what he was doing and he let the helper know. So I don't necessarily believe that a new or weak helper is going to bring more fight from the dog. I think the most fight is going to come from a helper that just understands how to read that dog and bring the fight out in a way that draws power and confidence from the dog, regardless of whether the helper is 300 or 150lbs.


Agreed, and I didn't expect a single answer anyway.. I know ideally, I should have been able to draw it out of this dog, but I guess thats what I'm wondering.. what did I miss?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Uniballer said:


> But wait, there's more...
> 
> Helpers are human. Even experienced helpers do not read dogs in exactly the same way, and may emphasize different aspects of what they see in the dog. Nor are all helpers equally good at certain things. And how much is the helper _threatening_ the dog vs. _challenging_ the dog vs. _playing_ with the dog? I sometimes talk about the "new helper" effect, where working on a helper the dog doesn't know seems to refresh the dog's work. Some helpers never seem to get boring for certain dogs. Other helpers have a hard time adjusting their presence to fit what is needed on a given dog at a given time (either too much or too little presence).


That what I was wondering, if perhaps I was having too much, or too little presence, as I was trying to give a little b/c he more interested than the handled expected him to be at first (hadn't been out a while, believe he is 9, but schh1). But the bark and hold was just not nearly as good for me as it was for the other guy. I'm getting a good bit better at reading a dog while working with them and adjusting the pressure as appropriate, but I'm still real green


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dogs can "read" helpers just like helpers read dogs....I was at a DVG club many years ago...there were 2 dogs there, one a rottie, the other a GSD....BOTH dogs actually lifted their legs and relieved themselves on a helper (same guy)...not a small guy, did karate, but just no _presence_...I have a female who I swear would do the same to certain helpers...I can work her on Dean Calderon or Marcus Hampton (as an example) and a few other experienced guys and she shows terrifically...very very strong...on other helpers, her mind wanders looking for someone more interesting?, or she will just ignore them completely, and she will play the game with helpers she knows and likes.. but basically, it is presence, pure and simple....some dogs will bark at a monkey with a sleeve on and others react when the helper IS a threat.

Lee


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

I'll give a little example of something I went through years ago when I was learning to do helper work.

I had worked one trial as a helper, and had switched training groups, so I had a new mentor. I was impressed by how much of a defensive reaction he could get from a dog without touching him, or cracking the whip, or raising the stick, whatever. I watched him carefully and eventually found that I could do some of the things I saw him doing (e.g. posture, approach near or away from the sleeve on the ground, showing or hiding the sleeve or stick, etc) and get some of the same results. After a while some of those things became an instinctive part of my helper work. I'm sure they are not the same as they were in my mentor at that time, because now they are mine. But eventually, you get to where you want the dog to have a certain feeling about you, and you (seemingly) instinctively know how to make him feel that. That doesn't mean I can do that for every dog, or every time, LOL.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

The goal is to train the dog to bark at a passive hepler as intensly as an active helper. A dog going into a blind looking looking around doesnt necessarily mean it is bored and it could just as easily be avoidence.....maybe looking for a way out.

Different people do have a different presence which could make a dog a little dirty or bring a little more power. 

You have made the first observation that many miss or dont understand. You should be able to put a 15 year old girl (not that I would ever do that) in the blind and the dog should do a very nice guard.....maybe a little less intense than guarding on a full grown man but is should be intense and the eyes should not move off of the girl. That is the goal....takes some work to get there depending on the dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mareg said:


> The goal is to train the dog to bark at a passive hepler as intensly as an active helper. A dog going into a blind looking looking around doesnt necessarily mean it is bored and it could just as easily be avoidence.....maybe looking for a way out.
> 
> Different people do have a different presence which could make a dog a little dirty or bring a little more power.
> 
> You have made the first observation that many miss or dont understand. You should be able to put a 15 year old girl (not that I would ever do that) in the blind and the dog should do a very nice guard.....maybe a little less intense than guarding on a full grown man but is should be intense and the eyes should not move off of the girl. That is the goal....takes some work to get there depending on the dog.


We have a 14 year old girl that handles a dog... hmmmm perhaps she would like to learn to be a helper lol


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Deathmetal said:


> Make yourself look like a threat, and you will be treated like one.


I think that most helpers are better off not pretending to be something that they are not. When a helper is pretending a dog can see right through the BS. No matter how much you grimace, growl and spit the dog knows what's in your heart. You are much better off developing the things that *YOU* do well, in most cases.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Presence is not limited to an "active" vs a "passive" helper. Yes, there are dog who will do a guard on a sleeve no matter who is wearing it....they will also ignore an unsleeved helper waving a stick and focus on that same sleeve on the ground.

The whole point is that the dog respond to the threat of the "bad" guy - whether in a guard or a turn and attack or a frontal confrontation....Kristi, who has Hexe, will do some helper work - have seen her work Verdi Kathargo quite compentently - but some dogs who are not sleeve oriented or conditioned will not respond to her with correct aggression.

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

mareg said:


> You have made the first observation that many miss or dont understand. You should be able to put a 15 year old girl (not that I would ever do that) in the blind and the dog should do a very nice guard.....maybe a little less intense than guarding on a full grown man but is should be intense and the eyes should not move off of the girl. That is the goal....takes some work to get there depending on the dog.


Maybe this is off topic...but can you explain? Why do you view it this way? The dog should perform the exercise as a routine, and not respond to the level of threat/aggression/power perceived from the helper? What is the hold and bark really, just barking on command regardless of who is in the blind and what they are doing?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Getting into the difference between sport drive and genetic character. Sport dogs - point dogs - are trained to do the exercises for the highest possible points. I have both the pure sport dog and the "real" dog.

Lee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Getting into the difference between sport drive and genetic character. Sport dogs - point dogs - are trained to do the exercises for the highest possible points. I have both the pure sport dog and the "real" dog.
> 
> Lee


I feel the same way. Constantly told my female will score higher, but my male has a very intimidating presence unlike any other dog I've crossed. I BH'ed both dogs at once, and needed a second handler for the traffic test. Many offered to handler my female, on person said "gotta draw straws if you are handling the bitch, and one of us takes him"


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Side note, been working hard on refocusing my female on to helper vice the sleeve and glad to report she has abruptly and thoroughly stopped giving a crap about the sleeve and is now laser beaming the helper


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What you think in your head, the dog can see. Most people have a hard time believing that and want to do too much to get a reaction from the dog. Most of the big reactions from the dog comes when the talented helper is doing something so subtle, the people watching can't see. Again, the dog can. It is not about smell, it is about body language. When your mind is thinking something, your body will show it to the dog and like I said, it is quite subtle. The mistake is trying to get reactions with just your body, you have bring up the emotion you want the dog to see by thinking it. Wish I could find a better way to explain it but what Fast just said is absolutely true. There is a certain personality type that can do this better than others. There is maybe a small element of anger that is raised up by the helper but not released on the dog. Just enough so the dog knows it is there and that the helper is a little bit dangerous.

The other thing is, some people can show the dog presence but can't seem to turn it off or turn it down when the dog responds to it. That, for me, is most important and is what many people seem to not understand. The dog has to know he can control your presence/aggression but if you ignore the dog and keep the presence on high, you make the dog feel helpless. If the dog shows you more, you have to become a little bit less and again, most of this is done in your head, ( or your heart if you prefer to look at it that way). Then, like I said your body will show the dog. When I work a dog, it is a constant changing of attitude that goes on. One second aggressive, the next not so much, the next a little frightened and maybe then back to more aggressive depending on what the dog is doing. Most of it, is hard to see from the sidelines. Usually, if you CAN see it, the helper is doing too much or trying too hard. 

Only the dogs that are dull or stuck in a behavior do I have to show much more to. It is almost like the difference in a rental horse and a horse trained in dressage. The dogs that have seen the good work from the beginning, do not need much to stimulate them while the other dogs have to see WAY too much from the helper to respond. If you do too much of anything with a dog, you dull them to it. If you get a response by doing something one time, and then do it immediately again, you will get a lesser response and so on. You have to always mix it up for the dogs or they get bored and dull. THAT is the mistake I see quite a bit in SchH. Too much routine, too many times to the blind for hold and barks, always in the same place, same time, same helper , same number of barks and so on.

As for what Mareg said. That is the way I try to approach it also. In the beginning, you have to do a bit more but the idea is to work away from the helps that bring the drive up . Where the dog learns to load to the right drive level by simply seeing the helper. That should be the goal from the beginning of the training. You want the dog to load the minute his foot hits the field. Not easy to teach without a really good helper.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Good post Anne.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Wolfstraum

You are off a bit......yes a dog is supposed to respond to a bad guy or what tehy percieve as a threat......but in reality the dog is supposed to respond to a person when you turn the dog on. Some dogs may not percieve a threat but when you tell them there is a threat they better turn on and be ready to rumble. If you are happy with dogs barking at a sleeve on the ground or not barking at a helper in the blind bless your heart. Some dogs bark at a sleeve on the ground and others at the man....well, that is where proper training comes in.....and something they call balance. If your dog comes in and wont bark a a small person without equiptment, your dog was improperly trained. The dog is supposed to work through aggression in the blind...how can it be properly tested it is a game?


Liesj

No, a hold and bark is not a bark command and a "routine" is a series of individual components put together in a routine. You must teach them how to handle each individual component and what it is about....if not you are doing obedience.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Hey, side note... what side of the blind does everyone teach the dog to go around. Specifically, would you think it better to teach the dog to always come around the non-sleeve side of the blind as it seems to help them position better since the sleeve isn't right there in the face the second they round the blind, or, always come around the downfield side of the blind to help keep the dogs overall downfield pace closer to the handlers downfield pace


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I let them choose on their own. Dogs are "sided" like humans. My dog always turns right. I learned this b/c I started flyball, and they check right away which direction the dog prefers to turn naturally and then train that turn off the box. He goes around the blinds and picks up a dumbbell the same way. My puppy....I'm not really sure, I'd have to check but it isn't that important to me.

When running blinds I taught both my dogs to return to me and platz and not just run them without control or direction. If we are running them like in trial, then I direct them to another blind before they come all the way back so it is seamless.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is getting a bit off topic. 

I used to let the dog choose. Now I want them coming in stick side. I want the dog coming in on the man.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> This is getting a bit off topic.
> 
> I used to let the dog choose. Now I want them coming in stick side. I want the dog coming in on the man.


That is my thinking as well.. I want the sleeve to not be the first and closest thing. 

I figured it would be better than making more threads.. but maybe I'll make a generic "Hunter's Questions and Discussions" thread?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you are a lifetime premier member does that entitle you to go off topic


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

holland said:


> If you are a lifetime premier member does that entitle you to go off topic


Don't care, but it does NOT entitle ANY member, even NOT Lifetime Premium , to continually make sarcastic digs at others.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Maybe... I'm also the OP of this thread, so I sort of decided the topic in the first place.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Don't care, but it does NOT entitle ANY member, even NOT Lifetime Premium , to continually make sarcastic digs at others.


 
If you are so bothered by my comments do something about them-you are the moderator aren't you-don't you have the power to do something-gosh though I would really hate to be middle management thats just boring


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Guess I'll pass on the lifetime premier member-sorry


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bumping this thread, I'd like to read more discussion on it(both topics~blind running and the helper work, not the membership status)


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Bumping this thread, I'd like to read more discussion on it(both topics~blind running and the helper work, not the membership status)


How about this. I went and tested what sides my dogs are. Male is a righty, female is a lefty. Have them running the blinds consistently in their respective sides.

Worked the dog in question in the original post twice since this thread. Recorded the other guys as well. He was leaning over imposing at bit more. Yesterday I put a little more pressure on him and the b&h was much nicer.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

mareg said:


> Wolfstraum
> 
> You are off a bit......yes a dog is supposed to respond to a bad guy or what tehy percieve as a threat......but in reality the dog is supposed to respond to a person when you turn the dog on. Some dogs may not percieve a threat but when you tell them there is a threat they better turn on and be ready to rumble. If you are happy with dogs barking at a sleeve on the ground or not barking at a helper in the blind bless your heart. Some dogs bark at a sleeve on the ground and others at the man....well, that is where proper training comes in.....and something they call balance. If your dog comes in and wont bark a a small person without equiptment, your dog was improperly trained. The dog is supposed to work through aggression in the blind...how can it be properly tested it is a game?


LOL LOL - I think you misread or I was not clear enough for you....no way do I want MY dogs barking at a sleeve on the ground....my "real" dog will do a very nice strong H&B in prey on a diminutative helper in the blind...because she has been trained to guard. She will stop barking when told to sit in the middle of the field, and resume at the guard command. But it is not the sleeve she focuses on. I do not have nor would I want a breeding female (or male) who was that sleeve oriented. Even my sporty female will stay focused on a helper if he discards the sleeve....and does one of hte nicest H&Bs you will ever see in a female....she has produced the same (go look at videos of Dan Cox' Furious female, a daughter of my sportier female) Somewhere on youtube there are some of each female.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo always runs blinds coming around them stick side, we tried to teach him to go the other way and it didn't sink in. It was frustrating for all to try to get him to do it, though he finally did with major checks. But he still prefers to go around the other way. My TD/Helper wanted him to go the other way, and after discussion, we decided to just let him do it Karlo's way.

I took 2 weeks off from training due to life's interruptions so we'll see what he does next week. I would rather him do his natural way if the conflict is just too difficult to train it otherwise. 

He'll work on pretty much any helper on any field, strange fields are no big deal, pressure will make him fight harder, and more confidently producing more power.
A year ago, that wasn't so, but maturity and good training from our helper has brought out the best in him.
His hold and bark is textbook perfect according to my TD/Helper. It is genetic and not anything to do with his training.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Karlo always runs blinds coming around them stick side, we tried to teach him to go the other way and it didn't sink in. It was frustrating for all to try to get him to do it, though he finally did with major checks. But he still prefers to go around the other way. My TD/Helper wanted him to go the other way, and after discussion, we decided to just let him do it Karlo's way.
> 
> I took 2 weeks off from training due to life's interruptions so we'll see what he does next week. I would rather him do his natural way if the conflict is just too difficult to train it otherwise.
> 
> ...


The guy I train with had me throw a ball out and let both dogs go get it, paying attention to what direction they did the 180 in. Then did the same throwing it against the outside of the blind (or a wall.. something so they cannot overshoot), then did the same letting the dog see the toy placed in the blind. Both dogs consistently preferred a side, so thats the side that dog works.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Knowing if your dog is right or left sided is a very good thing to figure out and take into account for somethings in training. Not just the blind search, but especially the retrieves. If a dog is left sided, practice tossing the dumbbell right of center over the jump and wall. Then when the dog picks it up and turns left, he's lined up center on the jump/wall for the return. Or if a right sided dog, vice versa. Whereas if a left sided dog and the dumbbell lands ot the left, by the time he's turned his most direct route back to the handler may be around the equipment rather than over. Granted, this is something every dog should be proofed for before trialing, but it still pays to give every advantage in trial to get the most points. I've met very few dogs who didn't have a strong preference for one over the other and little things like that taken into account in training and trial can make a bit of a difference.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Knowing if your dog is right or left sided is a very good thing to figure out and take into account for somethings in training. Not just the blind search, but especially the retrieves. If a dog is left sided, practice tossing the dumbbell right of center over the jump and wall. Then when the dog picks it up and turns left, he's lined up center on the jump/wall for the return. Or if a right sided dog, vice versa. Whereas if a left sided dog and the dumbbell lands ot the left, by the time he's turned his most direct route back to the handler may be around the equipment rather than over. Granted, this is something every dog should be proofed for before trialing, but it still pays to give every advantage in trial to get the most points. I've met very few dogs who didn't have a strong preference for one over the other and little things like that taken into account in training and trial can make a bit of a difference.


I'm left handed. Can I throw the dumbbell with my left instead of right hands? I can't possibly be that accurate with my right hand lol


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm left handed. Can I throw the dumbbell with my left instead of right hands? I can't possibly be that accurate with my right hand lol


I would practice until you can throw the dumbbell right handed. I'm left handed too and did just that. Trying to throw left handed just means that if your dog is in correct basic position you will hit them in the head. and if you move to throw better you might cause your dog to move and lose points that way.

Dumbbell throwing is one area the handler can help the dog and can practice without the dog. I suggest making a thre foot circle out of a garden hose and practice tossing into it until you can hit the circle reliably from 16 paces away, then practice throwing over obstacles like the a-frame.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

long ago, my favorite AKC trainer/judge had us learn to throw dumbbells with a hulahoop target - also taught retrieves with the method that is pretty much what all the schutzhund videos are doing now....

Lee


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