# Mange



## kcox82

Upon getting home today from buying groceries we looked across the street and lying in our neighbors yard was a blue pit. We carefully approached and realized he was very friendly. So we were able to get him into our backyard easily. 

He has probably about 15-20% hair loss and some sores. Looks like it could be mange or just really dry skin. He had several fleas on him. Have already bathed him and is looking much better. But as I have never had to deal with this I'm not sure if there is more I should be doing to help this pup? 

He is retricted to the backyard at the moment and we are not letting our two GSD's go in the backyard. We have already put flea killer on all the backyard to try and keep from an outbreak.

Just makes me so angry because he is not skinny so it looks like he hasn't been lost for long. And when bathing him we found that he still has stiches in his ears from having them cut. But it is VERY apparent that he has had this skin irritation for sometime. 

So long as all the pups get along it looks like we have a new addition to our family. 

If anyone can provide any advise it would be greatly appreciated. We will of course be taking him to the vet tomorrow to get him further checked out. No one seems to be open on Sundays with the exception of the emergency vets and they won't test for mange.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I would suspect a flea allergy. Can you post pictures? How old is the dog?

Have you reported the dog to A/C, posted on Craig's List and put up flyers?


----------



## kcox82

This has all been in the last hour so I have not put up flyers yet or posted on craigslist. 

My only concern with doing so is this puppy is in pretty bad shape and it looked like whoever had him before did not care to take care of him. Then again I don't want to be irrisponsible. Just want him to be well taken care of. He looks as if he's had a hard life. And with him being a pit... Just want to be careful.

I can't for sure say how old he is other then that he can't be over a year. Probably anywhere from 6-10 months. 

Pictures to follow.


----------



## kcox82

And honestly if I did find the owner I would most likely report him/her for animal cruelty.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I guess you could just call him into A/C and hope no one calls for him. 

I've got some natural shampoo/dip here that works really well to take care of fleas and mange and is also very soothing and healing. 

http://www.pretentiouspooch.com/store/azmiraneem.html


----------



## kcox82




----------



## BowWowMeow

Ouch! I see what you mean.







I was imagining a few spots. I hope that is not sarcoptic mange because it's very contagious. Demodectic mange is not contagious. 

If it is demodex then I can recommend a holistic treatment that will work. Your vet will want to use the toxic stuff though.


----------



## kcox82

Yes, I hope so as well. It did mention that if it was the scabies that after us touching him we would almost immiedtly be itching as well and that has not happened so keep my fingers crossed. 

Just again makes me so angry that people can sit by and watch their animals get like this. It's as simple as if you don't care to take care of a dog then why have one!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Just a word of caution--if it is any type of mange, do NOT allow your vet to give any vaccinations until the mange is under control.


----------



## kcox82

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowOuch! I see what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was imagining a few spots. I hope that is not sarcoptic mange because it's very contagious. Demodectic mange is not contagious.
> 
> If it is demodex then I can recommend a holistic treatment that will work. Your vet will want to use the toxic stuff though.


Any reccomendation would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## pupresq

Sarcoptic mange will not necessarily make you itchy right away. Typically it shows up on people hours later as itchy red welts (similar to chigger bites) around your middle. If it turns out to be sarcoptic, I HIGHLY recommend Revolution (the hw preventative) as a treatment rather than nasty dips - which are a PITA and highly toxic. 

You also might want to dose the rest of your pets with it as well, just in case of accidental transferral. Any blankets he uses need to be throughly laundered in hot water. 

I know everyone freaks out about sarcoptic mange but it's actually MUCH easier to treat than demodex, pretty easy to control, doesn't reproduce so can't spread on people, and it's not all that hardy in the environment. That is what it looks like to me though. 

Feel free to PM me if that's the diagnosis and you want any info on treatment - been there, done that!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

It looks like sarcoptic to you? That's what I thought. But a bad case of demodex could look like that too.


----------



## kcox82

> Originally Posted By: pupresqSarcoptic mange will not necessarily make you itchy right away. Typically it shows up on people hours later as itchy red welts (similar to chigger bites) around your middle. If it turns out to be sarcoptic, I HIGHLY recommend Revolution (the hw preventative) as a treatment rather than nasty dips - which are a PITA and highly toxic.
> 
> You also might want to dose the rest of your pets with it as well, just in case of accidental transferral. Any blankets he uses need to be throughly laundered in hot water.
> 
> I know everyone freaks out about sarcoptic mange but it's actually MUCH easier to treat than demodex, pretty easy to control, doesn't reproduce so can't spread on people, and it's not all that hardy in the environment. That is what it looks like to me though.
> 
> Feel free to PM me if that's the diagnosis and you want any info on treatment - been there, done that!!!


I am currently keeping in my backyard where we have a dog run but he was running loose in the backyard when we first brought him to our house plus the bath we gave him outside. So would it be safer to not allow our other dogs in the back yard until this clears? We put powder flea and tick killer all over our yard after giving him a bath.


----------



## kcox82

If this is the Sarcoptic mange... Can you all reccomend something that I need to be doing now? Like I said, we bathed him with Zodiac flea and tick killer shampoo that also has protien in it as welll has I have some omega suppliment pills for my other dogs that I gave him. Just feel really sorry for the little guy and want to do as much as I can as quickly as I can.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Pupresq has experience dealing with sarcoptic mange and I have experience dealing with demodectic mange so first I think you have to find out for sure what he's got. 

Regardless he needs to get on some good quality food and I'm sure some supplements wouldn't hurt either to help boost his immune system. Both of these diseases result from having a compromised immune system.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

my aussie had a mild case of sarcoptic mange, (which can be contracted from wild critters) I had her dipped twice,,once then again a week later . I believe at the time, they wanted to put her on ivermectin, but since she can't take ivermectin, I went with the dips only which worked for her. She was VERY VERY itchy, and somewhat itchier AFTER the dip, but I was told that is normal, since the mange mites are under the skin, the dip is killing them off, and they are moving around MORE after dipping before dying off.

It can be spread to humans, however my vet said, that they prefer dogs to humans so the likelihood of them passing on to a human aren't that high. 

First thing to do is identify the mange,,sarcoptic or demodex,,or it could be flea allergie...
diane


----------



## kcox82

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAmy aussie had a mild case of sarcoptic mange, (which can be contracted from wild critters) I had her dipped twice,,once then again a week later . I believe at the time, they wanted to put her on ivermectin, but since she can't take ivermectin, I went with the dips only which worked for her. She was VERY VERY itchy, and somewhat itchier AFTER the dip, but I was told that is normal, since the mange mites are under the skin, the dip is killing them off, and they are moving around MORE after dipping before dying off.
> 
> It can be spread to humans, however my vet said, that they prefer dogs to humans so the likelihood of them passing on to a human aren't that high.
> 
> First thing to do is identify the mange,,sarcoptic or demodex,,or it could be flea allergie...
> diane


I hope very much it is just a flea allergy. Like I had mentioned he was covered in fleas. Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## middleofnowhere

Treatment for demodex works for scaracoptic (spelling on both those...) Yes, not only did my vet misdiagnose mange as allergies for over 2 years but he also misdiagnosed scaracoptic as demodex... Scaracoptic is most easily managed. Uhh it's not hours or days later that you will develop scaracoptic mange -- it is months later or it was in our case. So far as worrying about the yard, there is undoubtedly mange mites there before this guy came by. They are everywhere. It is just when they get out of control that it becomes an issue.

Oh please don't wish for flea allergy! Mange is treatable - flea allergy is forever!


----------



## pupresq

> Quote:It looks like sarcoptic to you? That's what I thought. But a bad case of demodex could look like that too.


Yes, that's definitely true. Just going on the picture, if I had to bet one or the other, I'd say Sarcoptic, but you're absolutely right. Won't know for sure until we get a skin scrape. 

IF the scrape is negative, I would go on and put him on Revolution anyway. It is very easy to get a false negative with sarcoptic mange. You don't always get one in a slide and with the bath you gave, you may have knocked off a lot of the superficial ones (which is a good thing!). Revolution isn't likely to hurt him and will be a flea preventative and heartworm preventative for the month if nothing else. 

Demodex is a lot trickier to treat, and Ruth is an expert there, so I defer to her wisdom. 

As far as what you can do now, I'd say you're doing a good job. A bath will help. We often use human dandruff shampoo on our sarcoptic dogs because it really cleans out the pores and has some antifungal properties in case there's some secondary infections going on, but it sounds like what you used is fine. I'd keep your other dogs away from him and out of the yard until tomorrow when you know what you're dealing with, but really - do NOT panic! Sarcoptic mange mites aren't very hardy, they will quickly die in your yard, Revolution will kill them on your dogs, and if you end up with a few itchy spots yourself, they will probably be in places that aren't all the visible and you will live - trust me, also been there, done THAT! LOL. 

I almost started crying the first time I accidently brought home a sarcoptic mange dog picturing all my dogs and my family all sitting around bald and itching, but now having dealt with many cases it has NEVER spread to my dogs and I've only gotten it a couple of times, and those where times when I'd been carrying a mangey dog and had had no way to shower and clean off right afterwards (like major rescue operations). Plus it's such a spectacular cure! Take lots of pictures! 

Thank you for saving this poor diamond in the rough!


----------



## kcox82

Thank you all for your WONDEFUL advise!!! You have been more then helpful!!! I will continue to update!


----------



## Avamom

I have to agree it looks like mange more so than a flea allergy....flea allergy gets the hair loss too, but in my experience it also comes with a lot of hot spots from licking and reddness from scratching, etc.

If he is scratching like mad its either sarcoptic or flea allergy...demodectic usually doesn't itch unless he's developed a secondary skin infection.

I know you are taking him to the vet Monday, which is the best course of action but are looking for what to do in the meantime. Unfortunately if its mange there isn't a lot you can do right now until the vet sees him that you haven't already done. Bathing was what I would have recommended.....if you have any nice all natural oatmeal shampoo that would help or a creme rinse. If he is really itchy some benedryl will help and with him being outside make sure he can stay warm since he basically has no hair. 

Starting on a high quality food with some omega oil supplements will be a good start. Proper nutrition and good healthy environment is what he needs most right now and lots of love which it sounds like you have!









Just from pics that all over patchy loss coupled with what looks like a lot of edema and swelling and his age, my vote is for generalized demodectic mange. You will get lots of differing treatment options. If this was a few spots of localized mange I would agree with Ruth and try the holistic approach, it is much easier on the dog and also has great results....she has a wealth of knowledge on that subject and has had great success with it. However, my opinion and experience with mange that is already generalized and widespead like that and already causing lots of swelling is to hit it as hard as you can and that usually means the "toxic" stuff the vets prescribe, oral ivermectin and also dealing with the secondary infections that normally accompany it. All the extra support you can give him, with nutrition and supplements will help tremendously but I think coupling oral ivermectin and the holistic approach of supporting the immune system and the rest of his body with supplements and nutrition is a win-win solution. We have had great success with many mange cases in our rescue. 

Here is a pretty informative site that gives you a good explanation without being too technical. http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html
However, I agree with pupresq (who also has lots of experience with these cases) and the dips are much more toxic and messy and are not the better choice nowadays. I have seen new research and heard from my vet that they are having good success (with both types of mange) with the flea preventative Promeris since it has a small dose of the active ingredient in the dips but not with the side effects and risks.

Make sure you talk with your vet about options and ask them if they have had experience with treating mange cases (if that is what it is diagnosed as). Demodectic mange is usually easily found by skin scrapes, however, sarcoptic is not as easily found and if often not seen in scrapes but can usually be treated for anyways if all the symptoms are present.

If its sarcoptic, its not as scary as you have probably heard and as pupresq has stated, its easier to treat. I have had a sarcoptic mange foster in my home and none of my other dogs got it and he went outside with them and played with them...we were careful to wash bedding often and he was separated and crated in a different room but if your other dogs are healthy they should be fine. I got a few bumps on my arms after bathing him but they were like ant bites and no big deal.

I have a dog with flea allergies and have cured several mange cases....I'd rather have the mange cases, at least you can cure them and the live normal lives, controlling fleas for the rest of the dogs life is much harder!!

THANK YOU for saving him....most people would look the other way at a stray and especially at one that was sick and "ugly", I think he is ADORABLE!!!!









Feel free to PM me anytime, I am happy to help....sorry to be so longwinded!


----------



## LisaT

If it's demodex, this thread might be helpful:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=537799&page=1#Post537799


----------



## Maedchen

His skin condition could've also been caused by bad nutrition. Get a skin scraping done so you know what you're dealing with and then you can decide how you treat it.
Poor boy- I wouldn't go out of my way to find the owner either.







Of course the dog isn't neutered, just like expected.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: Maedchen...Poor boy- I wouldn't go out of my way to find the owner either.


Ditto that!!


----------



## kcox82

The verdict is in... it's demodex. No infections or fungus which is REALLY good, healthy weight. So just get this knocked out and he will be a very happy little guy. The vet wanted to give me a prescription dip but I said no thanks after your guys helpful hints.

Upon doing more research over the past day and half I've read that most times this is brought on by lack of immune systems and poor nutrition.

I have been doing a lot of studying on the raw food diet for my other dogs and the more I do the more I am leaning towards it.


----------



## kcox82

Any information you can give me for natural means of knocking this aweful stuff out would be most appreciated. Everyday I lean more towards this after reading all of the horrible things that can come from the stuff the vets prescribe.

Thanks!!!








Kim


----------



## BowWowMeow

Just have a second and can't remember if it's posted on Rafi's thread that is referenced in this thread but I have had huge success with these two products:

NEEM shampoo: http://www.pretentiouspooch.com/store/azmiraneem.html

NEEM spray (I sprayed it on every day): http://www.pretentiouspooch.com/store/azmiraneemspray.html

You also want a really good immune booster like mushrooms. Check http://www.onlynaturalpet.com and search under immune booster and read the reviews. 

I am able to buy the Azmira stuff locally as well as lots of other holistic products. Do you have an animal health food type store in your area?

Does he also have some secondary skin infections? If so, you'll need something to fight those too. I'll be back later tonight.


----------



## LisaT

Did you read the link that was posted above, to the sticky in the holistic section?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Holy schnikeys! For something that diffuse, I would want to use a traditional (but non-dipping) approach. I would probably want to take him to dermatologist. Congratulations? on your new dog?


----------



## kcox82

Yes, he is staying safely with us. Did introductions this morning to our other puppies and him and my male LOVE each other which is very much a blessing! Everyone is getting along. He is eating great and have already seen a HUGE improvement just from giving him a bath yesterday to get all those nasty fleas off him. Looks much, much better today!!!









We have named him Kenta which means healthy and strong in Japanese to give him some encouragement. But I have no doubt he will rebound wonderfully... you can tell he has a strong spirit about him.


----------



## kcox82

Yes, sure did. I went this afternoon and got the supplements listed. I thankfully had some omega pills that I had been giving him since yesterday and I think that helped a lot as well. Skin is feeling much better, it was horribly dry yesterday. He is doing 100% better today! He is barely itching. Setteling in very nicely. Soaking up all the love.


----------



## kcox82

Update...

Have switched Kenta (that's what we named him) to the raw food diet... this his is second day and MUCH improvement. I think the demodex was coupled with an allergy because he had hive like bumps all on his underside that have now gone away. 

Everyone is getting along wonderfully... it's so funny to watch him and my 10wk old GSD play, she doesn't realize how small she is. She has no fear of him or my other GSD. 

I again appreciate all your guys advice!


----------



## BowWowMeow

That's great! Please post pictures as he heals! Also, keep notes on what you used and what you think worked and what didn't. 

Glad to hear that everyone is getting along so well.


----------



## kcox82

I will post a few tonight.

Have another vet appointment today to scedule a neuter and get the stiches out from where somone had clipped his ears. And then from there we should be great... on the road to recovery!


----------



## kcox82

Here are a few current pics of Kenta... Sorry it has taken so long to post them. He is doing excellent!!!


----------



## LisaT

What a difference a month and a half makes!!!

Absolutely wonderful, and great job -- kudos









So what exactly was it that you did, we can try to link this thread to the other mange thread, if we don't lose it.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Wow, he looks great!


----------



## kcox82

-We ended up having to use the Ivomac, but thankfully we were able to do it with 1.5ml every other day. 
-On top of that we gave him neem baths every other day until all is sores went away. 
-Gave him supplements with lots of omegas. 
-And have fed him raw. 
-And of course lots of love and fun time.









But he is doing extremely well, just wants to be loved more then anything(it is very evident were ever he came from he was neglected in this manor... he craves attention). Everyone is still getting along wonferfully. Now that he has learned what toys are he can't get enough of anything that squeaks. Honestly couldn't have asked for a better family member, just all around amazing guy.


----------



## LisaT

What a great story -- he looks very content in those pics -- thanks for posting an update!


----------

