# Monks of New Skete



## Courtney

I'm asking about their breeding program out of complete curiosity. I have enjoyed their books & dvd's. Does anyone have a GSD from them? What was your experience like dealing with them? What kind of lines do they have?

New Skete The dog section does not open for me.

Again, just curious & not looking for a puppy/dog


----------



## holland

Before I bought my first GSD I went up there I didn't live too far from there-they have a beautiful place. Their dogs are show lines and I never met their dogs-but talked to them and they were nice. My name was on a waiting list. I went with another breeder and they called me right after I got my puppy


----------



## holland

The dog section opened for me


----------



## NancyJ

I met one of their dogs in the 80s at a tracking club. At the time I had an Am Lines dog (who was actually a pretty decent dog) and felt the New Skete dog was very skitterish....but that was one dog......25 years ago.


----------



## Good_Karma

I've read their books and even filled out an application for a puppy. We didn't get a response for months, and by the time we were approved for a puppy, we already had one lined up (actually two, long story). Plus if I remember right, the puppy was $5000. I think that's an awful lot of money to spend (for me personally) on a dog that's just going to be a family pet.


----------



## bruiser

I have read their books and have their training DVD...I really like them. I don't know about their dogs though, too expensive for me


----------



## carmspack

My thinking is marketing gimmick. Breeding programme run by AKC judge. 
Pups very expenive , why , why , why.
Also, the dogs I have seen were just plainly not so good. One belonged to a teacher friend at my husband's school. Very long bodied , sag in the back, open toes, flat feet, colour paling, health issues (auto immune) and not even good temperament to compensate. She swore she would never go there again.
I have seen others at various training classes - skittish . 
They don't do anything other than pets -(that I know of)
my opinion please investigate and come to your own conclusion
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Anja1Blue

My understanding is that their breeding program - if it still exists - is greatly diminished since its earliest days. When the first book was published, the few monks who were instrumental in getting it going in the first place - who had the vision so to speak - were still alive and fully involved. Those individuals are gone now, and my impression is that there was no individual of the same caliber to succeed them. I liked their books and DVD's up to a point, and certainly their dogs looked good at that time. Mostly what I have heard since has been negative. Even in their heyday I wouldn't have considered a dog from them for the reasons already stated - overpriced, and always had a huge waiting list.
_______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


----------



## blehmannwa

I love the Monks. The kennels are impeccable and each dog in their breeding program is also integrated into the community. The socialization that they do with the puppies is great. I don't know about what changes have been made in their breeding program. My pup is WGSL. It was a long wait but I wasn't in a hurry and he was not $5,000.00. He was $3,000.00.

My pup is classic and showy. He is the easiest dog that I've ever owned. House training was a snap. His nerve is strong--he is unflappable. He is "just" a pet but that can be a challenging job. His pedigree is free of any of the major genetic flaws that plague the breed and the early socialization that the Monks did is evident in his character. He bonded very quickly with me and my family. I consider the price to be fair. I've spent 4 or 5 times that on my big girls' knees and arthritis meds and I'd rather pay up front and hope to avoid a health problem.


----------



## lrodptl

I have had 2 New Skete Shepherds,the first was an unflappable beauty who lived 11 years til torsion and cancer claimed him last August. Shaeffer was Holtkamper/Fleischerheim and an absolute stud who was Red/Brown/Tan and peaked at about 92 pounds. Shaeffer was $1000 in 1999

We now have Fritz whose both parents are from the Kirschental Kennels in West Germany and sold to the Monks. Unfortunately Fritz is a handful. He has a very low nerve threshold,is very excitable by low stimulus and has submission issues. On the bright side he is very gentle with us and very very athletic and obedient. Fritz is 19 months and 94 pounds. Fritz was $2995 in 2009.

Same breeder,2 beautiful dogs,one very stable and the other not so stable.


----------



## lrodptl

Shaeffer










Fritz' Dad New Skete's James


----------



## NarysDad

Courtney, I sent you a pm.

As for their dogs, I don't know them personally but did get lots of information from a very reliable source that their dogs have been very skittish. Back in the 80's you would have had a better chance to get a good dog from them. As for now I hear that the monks are not as knowledgeable as the older monks that had written those books that everyone likes


----------



## blehmannwa

My boy is the opposite of skittish. He's biddable and confident.


----------



## lrodptl

NarysDad said:


> Courtney, I sent you a pm.
> 
> As for their dogs, I don't know them personally but did get lots of information from a very reliable source that their dogs have been very skittish. Back in the 80's you would have had a better chance to get a good dog from them. As for now I hear that the monks are not as knowledgeable as the older monks that had written those books that everyone likes


I met most of the dogs in 2009 and they all looked remarkably composed. Brother Christopher who is in charge of the training program has been on the property for 30 years as have several other Monks. They sell about 70 puppies a year I think with a waiting list of about 18 months,where it used to be over 3 years.


----------



## cliffson1

Was called to problem solve a New Skete dog in Phila area last year. Dog was two years old, owner had German Shepherds for past thirty years, was Phila policeman and always worked his dogs out with Phila K9 people. Paid 3500 for dog and had lost his last dog two years ago at 14. This dog was WGSL dog. He was very stunning looking stallion. Decent prey drive, and fair nerve. Very reactive dog in new situations with new people with hair hackling up on neck. Gentleman wanted to train this dog as he did his others and the dog wasn't responding well, so they called me. After three sessions, I had to tell him that the nervebase was not strong enough for the dog to become what he was used to. He was not going to be comfortable with new things, as the guy had socialized him out the wazoo but he still didn't get comfortable with newness. Overall, a nice looking dog, definitely not good working temperament.


----------



## lrodptl

cliffson1 said:


> Was called to problem solve a New Skete dog in Phila area last year. Dog was two years old, owner had German Shepherds for past thirty years, was Phila policeman and always worked his dogs out with Phila K9 people. Paid 3500 for dog and had lost his last dog two years ago at 14. This dog was WGSL dog. He was very stunning looking stallion. Decent prey drive, and fair nerve. Very reactive dog in new situations with new people with hair hackling up on neck. Gentleman wanted to train this dog as he did his others and the dog wasn't responding well, so they called me. After three sessions, I had to tell him that the nervebase was not strong enough for the dog to become what he was used to. He was not going to be comfortable with new things, as the guy had socialized him out the wazoo but he still didn't get comfortable with newness. Overall, a nice looking dog, definitely not good working temperament.


Sounds like some of Fritz' characteristics,a lot of hackling and easily startled. While conferring with Brother Christopher about Fritz' issues he mentioned that once in awhile puppies present these characteristics after placement. He said the puppy aptitude testing is not without fault and the same puppies can test differently with different testers. Fritz' mother Xenia and father James both appeared perfectly normal and balanced to me. They were purchased from Kirschental Kennels in Germany whom I spoke to while confirming James' pedigree.Kirschental has been breeding herding dogs since 1950.
I don't know what percentage of the Monks puppies are weak nerved and I don't know what percentage of any other breeders are either. The Monks reportedly have a high percentage of repeat purchasers of their puppies.


----------



## GSDElsa

Out of curiosity, what do people like so much about these dogs? Even if they were one of the better breeders of WGSL's, $3000 for an 8 week old puppy is a LOT of money. I guess I don't understand what the draw is to spend that kind of money...

I know that WGSL's are more money, period so this isn't so much about them...just crazy people will spend this kind of money on a pet!


----------



## lrodptl

GSDElsa said:


> Out of curiosity, what do people like so much about these dogs? Even if they were one of the better breeders of WGSL's, $3000 for an 8 week old puppy is a LOT of money. I guess I don't understand what the draw is to spend that kind of money...
> 
> I know that WGSL's are more money, period so this isn't so much about them...just crazy people will spend this kind of money on a pet!


Before the internet I was drawn by a unique breeder that is living a monastic life,and inviting adult GSD dogs as constant companions. The dogs are constantly at each Monk's side in their relationship with nature. The fact that they were writing training books relating their experiences in a very different manner was intriguing.I also was very much impressed with the socialization and handling of the puppies from day 1 which requires many volunteers from the local community. I don't know how any other breeder could possibly compete with the socialization of an entire monastic community of Monks,Nuns and lay people. Add to that the very real expectations of ethical standards of being a Monk or Nun and how that would translate to the business of breeding. That's what I based my first New Skete puppy purchase on and that puppy turned out to be a tremendous companion dog for 11 years.Absolutely no training,temperament or behavior issues at all. The $1000 spent in 1999 was worth every penny.9 years later I made my second New Skete puppy purchase for $2995 based on the outstanding quality of dog and friend I got from my first purchase. Unfortunately this 19 month old is not as well behaved or strong nerved and now I wonder if there isn't a certain element of luck involved,no matter the breeding or the socialization.


----------



## GSDElsa

I think it is luck, but everything I've heard recently about their breeding program today is fairly close to the description that you give about your current dog's temperment issues. Perhaps suggesting the ethics aren't quite there. IMO.


----------



## NancyJ

I think it would be hard to draw conclusions about ethics based on some breeding results. The fact that they are not taking applications may mean they are re-assessing.

Their first book (late 70s) was revolutionary at a time when all training I knew of did not consider the dog to be any kind of sentient being and it was all about yanking the dog into position and punishing them for leaving it.

I think the 80s were a big time of change for the good and the bad......and maybe a lot got lost in the translation. While they made the alpha roll popular, I believe they saw the error of their ways and recanted...(though I do not have any of their books other than the first one which is very dusty somewhere)

I think though as long as it is a sideline and money making business as opposed to a passion for the breed (and the originator of the progrom died I think of a heart attack very early on) then I would ask those questions.

Kirschental -- I dunno -- old herding lines but gone to show in more recent history --- I have seen some of those too and they were the same way, and wonder if that is not where the skittery comes from.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I know that gsd rescue groups have ended up with New Skete dogs that were either dumped in shelters or surrendered to the groups and New Skete has not even responded when contacted about taking the dogs back.


----------



## blehmannwa

The dogs that I met there appeared to have lovely temperaments. My pup has some of the same genetics as Irodptl's second dog and as I said before his nerve is very strong so I would imagine that luck has to factor in. Of course, there is also the matter of expectations--I would not expect my boy to train with a K-9 unit as in Cliffson's example.

As for the cost, I consider that I'm paying it forward. I've spent over 3 times that on knee surgeries, medications and vet visits on my rescues. I like knowing that pup's lines are free of dysplasia and other undesirable traits. Of course there is an element of luck there but my oldest rescue girl has had joint problems since she was three and I'd really like to avoid that. 

Another reason for the price is the quality of the kennels. The care that the Monks and companions give these dogs is evident in every interaction. I wanted to avoid purchasing a shepherd from a breeder who sees their dogs as stock. I'm troubled by some of the large breeders attitude towards their dogs. 

Lastly, there was an element of wish fulfillment in the purchase. I read the Monks before I even had a dog. At the time of the original publication I only had ever heard of Barbara Wodehouse and that way did not work for me. The Monks introduced me to a different model of dog training with the dog as fully integrated member of the family.
I visited Cambridge NY as a starving grad student and New Skete was pointed out to me. I didn't make a visit at that time but it made the Monks and their work more real to me.
I used the Monk's to train my first two rescue dogs when I finally was able to afford dogs. As I became more involved in training, I adapted different methods and different philosophies but the Monks were my introduction and foundation. It was really wonderful to visit and support a place that I had admired for so long.


----------



## lrodptl

BowWowMeow said:


> I know that gsd rescue groups have ended up with New Skete dogs that were either dumped in shelters or surrendered to the groups and New Skete has not even responded when contacted about taking the dogs back.


I contacted Julia at New Skete and she said they have never ever been contacted about returning a pup or dog in the last 4 years. She said the policy is to help with rehoming or to take the dog back.


----------



## lrodptl

jocoyn said:


> I think it would be hard to draw conclusions about ethics based on some breeding results. The fact that they are not taking applications may mean they are re-assessing.
> 
> Their first book (late 70s) was revolutionary at a time when all training I knew of did not consider the dog to be any kind of sentient being and it was all about yanking the dog into position and punishing them for leaving it.
> 
> I think the 80s were a big time of change for the good and the bad......and maybe a lot got lost in the translation. While they made the alpha roll popular, I believe they saw the error of their ways and recanted...(though I do not have any of their books other than the first one which is very dusty somewhere)
> 
> I think though as long as it is a sideline and money making business as opposed to a passion for the breed (and the originator of the progrom died I think of a heart attack very early on) then I would ask those questions.
> 
> Kirschental -- I dunno -- old herding lines but gone to show in more recent history --- I have seen some of those too and they were the same way, and wonder if that is not where the skittery comes from.


They regularly close off the application list when the litter projections are covered with buyers.


----------



## lrodptl

blehmannwa said:


> The dogs that I met there appeared to have lovely temperaments. My pup has some of the same genetics as Irodptl's second dog and as I said before his nerve is very strong so I would imagine that luck has to factor in. Of course, there is also the matter of expectations--I would not expect my boy to train with a K-9 unit as in Cliffson's example.
> 
> As for the cost, I consider that I'm paying it forward. I've spent over 3 times that on knee surgeries, medications and vet visits on my rescues. I like knowing that pup's lines are free of dysplasia and other undesirable traits. Of course there is an element of luck there but my oldest rescue girl has had joint problems since she was three and I'd really like to avoid that.
> 
> Another reason for the price is the quality of the kennels. The care that the Monks and companions give these dogs is evident in every interaction. I wanted to avoid purchasing a shepherd from a breeder who sees their dogs as stock. I'm troubled by some of the large breeders attitude towards their dogs.
> 
> Lastly, there was an element of wish fulfillment in the purchase. I read the Monks before I even had a dog. At the time of the original publication I only had ever heard of Barbara Wodehouse and that way did not work for me. The Monks introduced me to a different model of dog training with the dog as fully integrated member of the family.
> I visited Cambridge NY as a starving grad student and New Skete was pointed out to me. I didn't make a visit at that time but it made the Monks and their work more real to me.
> I used the Monk's to train my first two rescue dogs when I finally was able to afford dogs. As I became more involved in training, I adapted different methods and different philosophies but the Monks were my introduction and foundation. It was really wonderful to visit and support a place that I had admired for so long.


In my 2 visits there,they appear very devoted to their dogs and the dogs looked happy and well adjusted. It's a very unique situation where every breeding dog has a constant human companion and the puppies could not be more cared for.


----------



## NancyJ

Ok - I think what is going on here is fair. Several of us have had negative PERSONAL experiences with some of their dogs and others have had positive experiences.

People can and should make their own assessments.


----------



## lrodptl

GSDElsa said:


> I think it is luck, but everything I've heard recently about their breeding program today is fairly close to the description that you give about your current dog's temperment issues. Perhaps suggesting the ethics aren't quite there. IMO.


I couldn't say as I don't know what other backgrounds the other breeding dogs have. I only know my most recent pup is 100% Kirschental. I have started a FB page for New Skete German Shepherd Owners so I could connect with other owners and get some feedback but so far (2 months) I have no new members. I can't imagine that men and women who are living a life of prayer could knowingly breed problem animals. My limited conversations with them makes me feel that they are proud of their program.


----------



## lrodptl

jocoyn said:


> Ok - I think what is going on here is fair. Several of us have had negative PERSONAL experiences with some of their dogs and others have had positive experiences.
> 
> People can and should make their own assessments.



I have had one extremely positive experience and Fritz is not what I bargained for but I'm not perfect either and he is very loving.


----------



## blehmannwa

I agree with you Irodptl. I was so impressed with the kennels and the dogs. I got to meet a few of the brothers and tour the new church with the gorgeous icons. 

My pup is everything that I wanted. He's never far from my side and while he can be a typical annoying pup--his puppy eval has the word "mouthy" penciled in--I can see his potential.

Thank you for contacting Julia about the shelter dog rumor. I've heard that before as well and I'm glad that you followed up on it. It struck me as out of character.


----------



## BowWowMeow

lrodptl said:


> I contacted Julia at New Skete and she said they have never ever been contacted about returning a pup or dog in the last 4 years. She said the policy is to help with rehoming or to take the dog back.


There is a member on this board whose rescue ended up with several New Skete dogs and this is from her. However, this was at least 3 years ago so it is certainly possible that it wasn't in the last 4 years. 

But I find it really surprising that they have never been contacted in 4 years about returning a dog since they sell so many. What does the contract say?


----------



## Andaka

I sold two dogs to the Monks for breeding 25 years ago when Scootie Sherlock of Caralon Kennels was helping them find breeding stock. She would often take Caralon and other stud dogs up there to spend some time so that the Monks did not breed themselves into a corner. 

A dog sired by "Duce" got his Utility Dog title.


----------



## cliffson1

Prayer is not going to improve genetics!


----------



## carmspack

there was nothing new about their training method -- 
the raising method had been used by guide dogs trainers some 30 years before the Monks (and others) including real life herding people who had the dog with them as extensions of themselves and the dogs picked up the job almost through osmosis.
You don't need a village to handle the pup to be socialized . That is artificial . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

In all my time running around in the circles of working dogs, and always, by habit, for a reason , have never met a "monks" dog in the working dog world.
If they were so expertly bred and so expertly socialized where are the dogs that made anything of themselves.??

That is one wicked price tag on a young pup -- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## lrodptl

BowWowMeow said:


> There is a member on this board whose rescue ended up with several New Skete dogs and this is from her. However, this was at least 3 years ago so it is certainly possible that it wasn't in the last 4 years.
> 
> But I find it really surprising that they have never been contacted in 4 years about returning a dog since they sell so many. What does the contract say?


I don't have it with me but I went through a very difficult time with Fritz and fear aggression and submissive urination and I contacted them to tell them I think Fritz and I was a bad match. I said I was going to contact GSD rescue as I was heartbroken about Fritz' fear of me. Julia was frantic when I called and said "Don't do anything til Brother Christopher contacts you". Brother Christopher immediately e-mailed me and then phoned me and he had quite the calming effect. He explained the possibilities of helping Fritz and I and counseled me on the first steps for 90 minutes. He offered to take Fritz back to New Skete for a 2 week evaluation and recommendation. He provided me access to another IACP behaviorist near me that he trusted and Brother Christopher oversaw the strategies. It's been 12 months since then and Fritz is much better but not perfect and I've had to do some serious behavior modification of my own. The point is that they were immediately available when my relationship with the dog was in crisis and pledged to work it all the way through with me. I think it's another benefit of a breeder that also has a fulltime training program that has been operating for 20+ years and offers insight and counsel til a problem resolves. Their priority is to keep the dog with the owner and they are able and willing to help that happen.


----------



## lrodptl

carmspack said:


> In all my time running around in the circles of working dogs, and always, by habit, for a reason , have never met a "monks" dog in the working dog world.
> If they were so expertly bred and so expertly socialized where are the dogs that made anything of themselves.??
> 
> That is one wicked price tag on a young pup --
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


It's a Monastery first and foremost and they are living a monastic lifestyle,not parading around the country in dog shows. It's unique and people seem to miss the point that they are Monks,they rarely leave the property.
They profess to breed and provide the "best possible companion dog.


----------



## cliffson1

But the breed is a working dog, and surely they aren't keeping all their dogs at the monastery, so for the dogs that go out in the world I would also think you would at least see them in obedience, tracking, etc. Regardless of where the dog comes from, it should still possess the traits of a balanced working dog. Not saying their dogs can't work, but I think that for the reputation, price, and marketing, they should be better represented in the world the German Shepherd was made for.JMO


----------



## blehmannwa

As it was pointed out, The monks profess to breed the best possible companion dog. That is their market and being a companion is an aspect of the work that the German Shepherd was made for.


----------



## lrodptl

cliffson1 said:


> But the breed is a working dog, and surely they aren't keeping all their dogs at the monastery, so for the dogs that go out in the world I would also think you would at least see them in obedience, tracking, etc. Regardless of where the dog comes from, it should still possess the traits of a balanced working dog. Not saying their dogs can't work, but I think that for the reputation, price, and marketing, they should be better represented in the world the German Shepherd was made for.JMO


All their breeding dogs are kept on the 1500 acres at the Monastery. They have a waiting list for their dogs and many,if not most,are return buyers such as myself. I had no plans to show my dogs,I wanted a family pet. I don't think they have any control over whether the purchaser shows their dogs or not. The Monks themselves live the life of a Monk,each with a canine companion. I don't think they market their dogs except through their website and word of mouth as companion dogs.


----------



## cliffson1




----------



## lrodptl

TompkinsSquare said:


> I looked at my dog's pedigree and he's descended from Xenia. Why did they keep breeding her line? Most aggressive dog I've ever owned.


Money. New Skete gets $4000-$4500 per puppy.


----------



## cliffson1

You try to educate people, but it's really challenging these days.


----------



## Moriah

cliffson1 said:


> You try to educate people, but it's really challenging these days.


I've noticed being on the forum, that some members got their first GSD, learned about pedigrees, care, and the training of GSDs more fully, and then were prepared to make better decisions when acquiring another GSD.

I have learned so much about GSDs!!! I treasure my GSD and having him has forever changed my life with dogs and I am a way better handler and owner. Believe me, I would run a working-line GSD litter's pedigree through Carmen's and Cliffson's filter before ever making a decision on another GSD.


----------



## Deb

Moriah said:


> I've noticed being on the forum, that some members got their first GSD, learned about pedigrees, care, and the training of GSDs more fully, and then were prepared to make better decisions when acquiring another GSD.
> 
> I have learned so much about GSDs!!! I treasure my GSD and having him has forever changed my life with dogs and I am a way better handler and owner. Believe me, I would run a working-line GSD litter's pedigree through Carmen's and Cliffson's filter before ever making a decision on another GSD.



I will be looking to them to get my next GSD from.


----------

