# IPO Questions



## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

My 2 y/o male Chunk recently passed his BH and did OK but not great. We went to another club's field where he had occasionally worked out for the test. My question is that when we got back to our field it seemed as though he took several giant steps backwards. He is a nervy dog to begin with and he went from doing IPO 2-3 level protection exercises back to avoiding the stick.
To be sure we have worked on that issue and it seemed to be fixed for 4-5 months and now it has popped up again. He has done all sorts of environmental work, off site biting and suit work and now that we are going back to IPO prep training he gets nervy. 
Has anyone dealt with this and how did they deal with it...? I came home from the BH trials thinking Great, all I have to do now is get him to learn dumb bells, the send out and finish tracking.. I was hoping for an IPO1 winter trial but now who knows??
Thanks for your input, drive by bombs not needed, positive constructive criticism welcome..
Phil


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How old is he? Truly if a dog shows nerve at a stick hit, I personally don't think the dog is enjoying the sport(protection phase). My dog powers up at the stick hits.

If your dog has been rushed and isn't mature mentally then I'd excuse the behavior somewhat. But.....I think the dog is showing what is in his heart. You need to decide how to procede. At the end of the day, the genetics always trump the training and foundation.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

It is hard to analyze something like this online, nobody can see exactly how your dog reacts and make a proper recommendation. I don't know who you train with or where, but I think it would be worth it to have an experienced helper/competitor work with you to try and figure out what the issue is and how to try and overcome it. Maybe attend a seminar with a trainer who may specialize in building confidence or working with dogs that have less than ideal nerves? Hopefully this issue can be resolved for you and you can get your IPO1 with him. IF he was taking stick hits before, I don't see why you can't get him back to that level with some hard work?

Lots of IPO competitors have problems to solve and overcome, you just gotta keep training and try to figure out how to help your dog overcome this particular hurdle. Sometimes genetics work against you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do your best. As long as you aren't stressing your dog out and making him miserable, of course. I know several people on the forum here have competed with "less than ideal" dogs successfully, so hopefully they can chime in with some good advice for you!

Congratulations on your successful BH, and good luck in your future IPO endeavors!


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

O.Girl.. Thanks for the input... I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can. 
In the case of genetics, he has one side that is all work and the other that is mostly all sport. He's always up for the fight but is just now really showing signs of being the "Butt Head" stubbornness that comes out in real working dogs. Is he showing signs of pronounced hardness that sch dogs are supposed to show.. He takes on the challenge of stick hit other things along that line but it was pretty discouraging to see him not necessarily flinch but direct the fight away from the stick which my trainer says is avoidance. He really loves to go to the field to do his protection work.. He isn't fearful and has begun to show a lot of dominant traits that are necessary for IPO. 
The day he flaked I had to really correct him because he growled at a friend at work. (The dog is no longer welcome at my work now.) Fortunately he was on the leash, he has never really liked this guy (one of the two at work). He didn't bite him but growled menacingly as he jumped up to push him away. (Long story, not really relevant to what I am talking about in this thread..I think it goes back to the butthead theory.)
O-girl, I have read a lot of your posts and really respect your opinion.. In this case I hope it isn't that he doesn't want to do IPO.
I hope this helps, thanks for the input.
Phil


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How old?


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

2 years old.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He's directing his aggression at the stick not the helper? Or going into avoidance or leaving the sleeve at a stick hit.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

O.girl.. He has a great grip and rarely does anything but improve his grip or regrip. before the bh trial we stopped all but one 6 blind search with a bite at a work out. (He does two at a time with a platz at 2 & 4 to be called again.)
The bite work was warm up bites on the pole and then off to the suit top for bite work 2 weeks before the trial. He bit so hard several time he drew a little blood, he caught the trainer off balance and pulled him down and one time the bite was so hard the trainer couldn't get out of the suit. (His personality lit up like a jr. high kid that just won his first real fist fight.)
As far as I can tell he's not biting or fighting towards the stick, but just trying to avoid it.. Another example of the same thing was when we did the official IPO1 protection routine for the first time ever he kept looking around the blind to see if I was going to join him... He normally barks or bites until I get there and only slightly acknowledges me when I show up at the blind. A casual glance or maybe a slight head bob.. It used to be much more of a problem but we have trained him to focus on the trainer.. We often have groups of people walk around the bite blind while he is working as a distraction... The only one that distracts him is me when I make noise and go in and out of his line of site...
Again, I hope this makes sense to you please let me know if it doesn't.. Thanks again for your input.. (Sorry I'm writing so much but I want to get this phase behind us..
Phil


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you done call outs? Do you use ecollar and out him w/collar? Are the stick hits playing into outing-timing? Do you pattern train the routine? The helper has used the stick to 'brush' him with no issue, it is just the hit that is an issue?


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Have you ever hit him with a stick at home? Serious question. 

I've seen dogs disciplined with a fly swatter that were weary of the stick or whip and were much more comfortable when helper put those away.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks again for your replies, sorry for the delay in getting back to you I got busy at work and I'm just now getting back to the forum to reply. I had to shoot a night trial last night and had my Saturday Honey do list.. (Plus my Sat. afternoon nap....)
I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can, this has really helped me to think thru things that I am my trainer are doing that might cause his occasional nerves..

1. Outs - yes and like all dogs, some are great and then he get's sticky.. the fodon (sp?) usually has the same results... 20%
2. E collar - Used in obedience parts of protection only, when he's in drive the dogtra has to be set pretty high. 105 or so... Regular obedience 65-85 depending on his mood.
3. Timing.. Probably so but I have never paid attention, I will now..
4. Pattern Train - Yes, broken down into parts, we are now putting the IPO1 protection pattern together complete.
5. Stick (both questions..) a. O-girl The handler does both rub, fake swing and hit.. nothing that would cause him to flinch from serious pain, he just started doing it again.. b. Gib-This is the dog that if you were to compare him to a child you were raising rarely needed to be disciplined. He got none at a really early age (we've had him since birth, he chose us out of 8 pups in my females litter.) He is kind of like the child you never had to worry about while you had some real monkeys on the other hand. Very level headed, has the work button to turn on when you want him to bite then goes back to happy dog when you are done. No implements, feet, fists etc were ever used on him. He was occasionally scruffed when he misbehaved but since we have his mom here she disciplined him as well.

So I feel like I'm on the shrink's couch but it has really made me think thru his training, and now as we start to get serious I've got to get this figured out so he doesn't flake in a trial..

Phil


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Holy smokes what kind of dog dogtra do you have that you need to use 60+ for a dog not even in drive? Or what kind of a freak dog do you have? Lol

Well either your dog's nerves aren't as great as you think or he developed superstitious association with the ecollar. I would lean ecollar. 

Not knocking how you train but for me personally if I have to zap the dog repeatedly at over 100 then I would take a step back and approach the problem from a different angle.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Does he need to be warmed up? That tells me he may have some reservations about engagement with the helper. Does he work better out in the open vs in the blind?
What is the reason that you need to use the ecollar at such a high level? My dogs level runs around 35 or so, he's a thinker and I use it very rarely.
Have you worked him in just a fursaver and made obedience the focus, if he's biddable as you say, just verbal should work. He's only 2, maybe the foundation has been rushed, most 2 yr old males are not yet mature. If you think he may flake, put him up for a season and see where he is at maturity.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Phil, you must know Joel Monroe. Have you ever worked with him? You described him as nervy. Right now it sounds like you're adding a lot of control and the obedience to protection? Maybe its just cumulative? Pressure in his head you wouldn't think of? Maybe you could take a look at what you're working and change your pace and plan a little?


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Wow.. great food for thought.. sorry but I am going to write a book again..
Gib
1. Chunk has pretty high working drive, when we warm him up.. when this is done he rarely flakes.. Great point.. we didn't do it right after the trial we just started putting the pattern together and I had to stand off while he barked and held.. could be this was part of the issue.
2. The ecollar isn't really heavy handed, chunk has some strong protection drives.. but I had toned it down and stopped using it two weeks before the trial during the obedience phase of his training. fur saver only on the dead ring with collar corrections only.
3. He is a nervy dog, we're trying to work around it and minimize it when it occurs.. 
O-girl
1. at the start of his protection training we started warming him up right out of the car.. Now its a few bites before we start working (over a 1.5 year period or so)
2. blind v open field - I think that the open field is his most comfortable place.
3. I'll talk with both of his trainers and ask if they think we are rushing it.. I would like to get a "1" by next spring if possible...
Steve.
Joel is one of the trainers where I work Chunk but.. My primary trainer is Greg Osmundson at Kreative Kennels. He and Joel are about 2 miles apart and have worked together in the past. WOW is where we got the bh. We only work there occasionally and I really appreciate Joel's critiques.. I take the info back to Greg and we digest it. One thing for sure, I am not looking to compete nationally, most of the WOW members either want to or do at some time in their SCH training. Chunk is my 1st sch but my 3rd gsd.. My hope is to be a club level sch participant as I am way too old to start up another competitive obsession now.. (63) I like the pace and plan suggestion and I will probably discuss that with Greg.. we work out 3x per week and if I throw WOW in it could be four..
Thanks again to all, I am trying to work thru all the things you write...

Phil


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One thing I'd consider Phil, is to knock off all the suit work and environmental stuff for a while and concentrate on what you're doing in Sch. If he isnt coming off the sleeve and he'll still out, it may not be great, but you won't fail for those things.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

couldn't agree more.. thanks..

So I watched a dog go out of control before it got on the field for obedience.. (ipo3) what do you all do in prep for a trial.. do you keep the same routine, cut back or wind down.. do you do more work? I am curious, I know that all dogs are different but how do you approach an up coming trial?


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

What was the purpose of the suit work? 

For me personally a week before trail I go out and do the entire routine every day. Same clothes. Same routine of leaving the house. When I get to the field I take my dog off to the side and put him in drive with the same routine. Basically day of trail the dog wakes up and it's just like the last 4 days for the dog. Nothing special.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

I guess the thought was change of pace, in retrospect it probably was a mistake...


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