# We don't want to get rid of our dog!



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

Our black german shepherd 'Mason' has been acting differently lately. My Husband and I came home late one night after going out and he cornered my husband against the wall, growling and showing his teeth. Then 2 days later our 11 month old daughter was crawling around in the floor and went to take his rawhide he was working on. He growled at her and then we took the rawhide away and put him in his cage. (thats where he goes when he is bad) He has always been a great dog though. We got him when he was a puppy so he has grown up with us. We even put him through a month of 'doggie boot camp' for obedience training. Our daughter could do just about anything to him and he wouldn't care, even take away his rawhide while he was chewing it! We talked to our dog trainer and he said since we corrected him immediately he probably won't ever do it again. But I really don't want to take the chance of him biting our daughter. He's 110 lbs! He could seriously hurt her!


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

How old is Mason?

After sending him away for "doggie boot camp", what training have you kept up with? Do you practice the learned behaviors every day while you're out walking Mason, as well as around the house before he gets things, like his food bowl or a treat? Do you practice NILIF?

Personally, I think that when dogs and children are in the same household, especially if the children are young, then their interactions need to be supervised 100% of the time. Just as the dog needs to learn that it's not okay to growl at family members, kids need to learn that it's not okay to go take the dog's rawhide from him.


----------



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

He's 14 months old and he is great with his obedience. We take him on walks every day thats its not raining. Personally, I think anyone whether its a child or an adult should be able to take away a rawhide from a dog at any time. It shows the dog that we are in control and dominant.


----------



## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

Start NILF. Toddlers should never be near an eating, sleeping dog unattended. Cages are never for punishment. They are and need to be a happy place, a place a dog likes to go, a place he can take a rawhide to on his own without fear of encroachment by a cute little cookie cruncher. 

Probably the first thing would be a vet check up to make sure there are no medical issues or vision problems. Husband and you need to take turns feeding him and for everything he gets he needs to do something first.
My dogs are 99.999% trustworthy and even Therapy Dog certified and I still wouldn`t allow my toddler grandchildren unattended with then. Nor would I let them take a bone from them.

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=nilif.html


----------



## Lynnemd (Aug 26, 2007)

I could not agree with Kutzro more. These are dogs and while typically tolerant of us humans and other animals, they are still animals. 

Little children do not inspire dogs to believe that they are the dominant force in their relationship. Please reconsider allowing your toddler that much freedom in how she deals with the dog. He needs to respect her food and she needs to respect his. The consequences of not doing so could be awful. Different story for adult owners - then yes, you should be able to pick up his food, etc. 

I am equally troubled re his pinning of your husband. I don't understand what that was about....hopefully someone here can make sense of it.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What exactly happened at "doggie boot camp?" What kind of training did they use? What kind of training do you use with him?


----------



## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LindsayBelkeHe's 14 months old and he is great with his obedience. We take him on walks every day thats its not raining. Personally, I think anyone whether its a child or an adult should be able to take away a rawhide from a dog at any time. It shows the dog that we are in control and dominant.


OMG, the only reason I train to it is for safety. Never let a child or non owner/ non handler do that. I trained my dogs with a "leave it" or "OUT" command before I take food or toy from them. My older child can tell them to "leave it" and when they drop it then she can take it away. But unless its part of tug play or something it theirs until they let go of it. I'm not sure what line of GSDs you got but your not dealing with a sloppy Basset hound or fat and happy beagle. 

I've trained outs by choking them off the item but I found a better gentler way to get them off the item and its faster. Again I would not tempt the Fates with taking any food/prey item from a GSD without agreed to terms.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LindsayBelke Personally, I think anyone whether its a child or an adult should be able to take away a rawhide from a dog at any time. It shows the dog that we are in control and dominant.


Please think again. There are people with a lot of experience with GSDs commenting on this thread. You may be dominant over the dog but you can not expect the dog to think the child is always dominant over him, because they have their own interaction. That's just expecting too much of any dog's intelligence. Even a GSD. Kids s/d be taught not to take anything away from any dog, whether it's a strange dog or the family dog. And responsible people do not just get rid of their dogs - THEY SUPERVISE.


----------



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think you have to be so rude about it. I guess for now on I'll only give him rawhides when she is not in the room. This still doesn't explain why he cornered my husband though. Its just so hard to trust him now.


----------



## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm confused was he agressive before or after the training?


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:I see where you are coming from, but I don't think you have to be so rude about it.


Lindsay, I'm sorry you feel that Ocean or the other posters were being rude to you. I don't think they mean it that way, they're probably just trying to put things as plainly and simply as possible. It's also often really hard to tell how something is meant on the web since you cannot hear the inflection. 

I am wondering whether your dog cornered your husband because you guys came back very late at night. Was it really dark where he cornered him? Is there a chance that he may not have recognized your husband until after he cornered him?


----------



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

he was aggressive before his training but only to strangers. Once he was able to sniff and meet the person he wasn't aggressive anymore. Our dog trainer was really interested in attack training him, but I didn't really feel like that was safe, especially with a baby around. He is just basic obedience trained, and walks very well on the leash. I hope this is just a one time thing because I would hate to have to give him away. He's like a member of our family.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Have you had him evaluated by a second trainer? The things you're describing sound like they would be made much worse by "attack training" and I think you were definitely right to decide against that under the circumstances. The fact that your trainer wanted to pursue that with a dog who was aggressive to strangers concerns me. 

The thing about trainers is that they vary a lot and can have very different perspectives and philosophies. Perhaps someone else might have a different take on how to help your dog?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you have time, with a baby I know it is hard, but please read as much as possible on this forum about training and anything else you have the time for. Your dog is doing what he thinks is his "job" and you are the boss to give him direction, correction. There are many books out- Jan Fennell, Patricia O'Connell and even Cesar Milan will be worth reading. Every author does agree to not let a child and a dog unsupervised together. Practice NILIF, and give Mason as much exercise and training that you can. Training is a lifelong thing, not just one class or session. If you truly cannot give him that then by all means give him a chance at a better life, because these dogs just want to please their family and protect them.
I remember when my son was a year old and I had a golden/border mix pup, she really needed a "job"to do, and I was too busy to give her what she deserved. We did work through it and Clover will be 14 on St. Patricks day, and her days are now numbered, she is slowing down, but she has been a really great dog. Remember Mason is still a pup and give him the direction and attention he needs....


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The question regarding training I have is what type of methods the trainer used in "boot camp." We debate compulsion vs. positive training here a lot.

The first order of business is, as mentioned above, to take him to the vet to see if there is something medical going on.

Right next to it is no bones or rawhides when others are present. Babies, friends, family. Bone or rawhide, the dog gets in his crate and time alone. Yes, I can take anything from my dogs at any time. I would not have a child try it. I would hope a baby wouldn't be given the oportunity to be around them with these highly valued chews.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Good for you for working to find solutions to help your family and Mason! I am sure you are open to perspectives in dominance and in looking into behaving differently with Mason so he can live happily in your family with you, hubby, and baby.









You're probably actually however NOT dominant over your dog. If you were, he wouldn't feel he needs to be making decisions about which strangers to be aggressive to and when-- you would be making those choices as leader. (honest-- dogs may be people-aggressive due to weak nerves, all dogs DO bark at new folks, but, he IS making a choice that HE is the one who takes leadership position to screen strangers HIS way) Secondly, Mason, as the packleader, was putting your husband in his place, it sounds like. Mason could easily smell who he was cornering and growling at, even in the dark. Mason very likely felt he needed to remind hubby of his lower-ranking place. 

It's hard to eval over a web forum, but it may be that like many GSDs, Mason needs you to ùse a comprehensive, all-inclusive, consistant daily program using key points such as dinnertimes, reunions with the pack, etc-- to show him in HIS language, where he ranks. No yelling, no hitting, no choke chains, no bullying... this is about using HIS language. It works, too! This involves eating before he eats. Going through doorways before he goes through them.(that is HUGELY important to dominant dogs-- they really notice this, even if we don't) Having him work for anything he wants-- food, waterbowl, toys, treats etc-- even affection-- have him sit, give eye contact, then WAIT.. until YOU release him. Look up NILIF on the web-- it means Nothing In Life Is Free. Mason may need such a program implemented by you. MANY of our dogs here in the forum did, too-- mine included!

This is not as hard/overwhelming as it sounds. Once you start, it becomes a habit. Mason will not only calm down (hey, there's much less stress when you are no longer at the top), he will no longer challenge hubby anymore. He may begin to look to YOU when strangers call, even if he barks a bit.

Or.. Mason may not need any of this, it is hard to eval over a forum. The cost for a good canine behaviorist (not trainer) would be worth it, if you have doubts or need guidance. They can be really very helpful in determining cause for behaviors!

The baby incident is actaully easy to correct-- the baby cannot be dominant over the dog, so the baby cannot be allowed near the dog when he eats, sleeps, or enjoys a rawhide. And it's a positive that Mason growled to tell the baby off, rather than biting. We all know canine lumps-o-pudding who would allow a child to reach for their rawhide, but many GSDs wouldn't.


----------



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

Its funny that you said that! I always let him go through the door before me and I let our dogs eat before we do! I had no idea everything I was doing was making him the dominant dog. I'll definitely take your advise and we'll see where it goes from there. Thanks!


----------



## pjindy00 (Feb 19, 2007)

Sounds like NILIF may do a lot for your family and Mason.

I had never heard of it before coming to this forum. It has become habit in our household, and it really does make a HUGE difference! At first it seemed like a lot of work, but now I don't even notice that we do it. 

Our dogs wait to go through the door, and then do so nicely (rather than a mad dash in or out), wait to eat until told they can, etc.

Another problem that this solved for us was that my dogs will now "quiet" whenever I tell them to. Doesn't matter what they are barking at, or if other dogs are going nuts, mine will stop and come quietly. Yes, they are still interested, but no more noisy pups! We have the quietest yard in the neighborhood! Now, after that being effective for nearly half a year, my dogs seldom go beyond an alert bark even on their own. None of this yapping for minutes on end...it's pretty nice!

NILIF may be a "lifesaver" for your pup - it seems so simple, yet it means a lot to the dog!


----------



## Lola1969 (Mar 6, 2007)

Hi Lindsay,

Wondering if your husband had anything to drink that night? Some dogs have been known to not like the smell of alcohol on their humans.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lindsay, some great books to read are The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell (be sure to get the original book, not her book of a similar title that has stories of how to be your dogs best friend)... another good one is by Patricia McConnel about being the packleader. http://www.dogwise.com will have the exact title if you put in her name.


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I hadnt realized how powerful NILIF until I see the difference in my dogs, I have a foster that I am training, he settled right down once he understood where his place was, no rushing out the door, what is interesting is they compete with each other to get out the door before the other, but not me, they absolutely must sit nice and wait until I release them to go.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

i just went to a behavior modification trainer for mikko who was getting a little too protective of me. our situation is different from yours but i think you can also benefit from the advice. she said to gain pack structure you must control five different areas 1. space 2. height 3. toys 4. food 5. water

to control these aspects:

1: space- dogs have an idea of personal space in which the alpha controls space. when you walk towards your dog, does he move right away? if not, he thinks he is in control of space. you need to practice walking right into him so that he moves (do not use hands or feet just push with your body- not in an aggresive way, just to move him). you will soon notice he jumps out of YOUR way. whereas before he may have been expecting you to jump out of HIS way.

2: height- dogs also use height in their pack order. ever see a dog put their head on top of another dog's shoulders? they are controlling height. if you let him on the couch or bed, its okay, but YOU control when he is allowed. if he tries to get up there just nudge him with your body again (no hands or feet or words, just nudge). when he goes somewhere else to lie down, you can then invite him on the couch on your terms. also every so often tell him to get down.

3: toys- the alpha always gets their pick first and always decides when they want to play. do not let him nudge you to play and drop toys in your lap. when he does this, simply nudge him away again (no hands no feet or words) and turn your head the other way, ignoring him. when he leaves, wait a few minutes then invite him to play. so now its on your terms. when you get him a new toy- do not present it to him as his new toy. you and your husband and baby play with it in front of him. then simply throw it on the ground as if you're bored with it and he can have your leftovers.

4: food- the alpha always gets first pick on what they want to eat off the carcass- this translates into modern pet life by you pretending to eat his food before you give it to him- then simply place the bowl down and walk away- he is eating your scraps- the parts that you are too good for- so he thinks.

5: water- very similar to food. for the first week or so you control when he gets fresh water. when you give it to him swirl your finger in first so he thinks you are drinking it and he is getting left over water- not the best and freshest water. 

my trainer said you don't have to do 4 and 5 forever, just for a week or so. the others become part of your life. if you notice he is getting better, you can once in a while let him get away with dropping a toy in your lap or something like that.


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

There is some great information in that advice. Thanks for sharing!!!


----------



## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Lola1969Hi Lindsay,
> 
> Wondering if your husband had anything to drink that night? Some dogs have been known to not like the smell of alcohol on their humans.


True, these are German Dogs and anything but a good stout German beer will piss them off.


----------



## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: kutzro357
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lola1969Hi Lindsay,
> ...


Oh I dunno, mine are ok with Guinness or Killian's but Milwaukee Beast will make them insane


----------



## LindsayBelke (Jan 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lola1969Hi Lindsay,
> 
> Wondering if your husband had anything to drink that night? Some dogs have been known to not like the smell of alcohol on their humans.




Yes he did have a couple beers that night


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I just came across this thread, and with regards to the alcohol, I just found out some interesting stuff about Sasha's past that is kind of related:

She'd been given up by her original owner because she was becoming increasingly aggressive (would bite!) towards one of the owner's roommates, despite having lived with these guys since 8 weeks. She was about 3-3.5 years at the time this started.

Sasha wouldn't let Alex into the house, she would corner and growl, snapping at him if he moved. She even bit his arm when he reached for a slice of pizza her owner had brought home. Worked with a trainer for months, to no avail. Eventually, I adopted her, worked out her issues with fear aggression and dominance, and she's fine.

BUT, I found out the other day, that Alex was a MAJOR JUNKIE. I met him once, and he gave me the creeps, something just wasn't right, like you could tell he was on something. 

I think that must have had something to do with her behavior towards him, though it doesn't excuse the dog in this case. Unless the husband was stumbling drunk, or really not acting like himself.


----------



## Rosie (Oct 22, 2007)

I have noticed that all dogs go through an adolescence stage too, where they think they know more than you do. He is starting to test you. Listen to all the people on here that gave you such good advice. I never really realized any of the pack order stuff until I got Rosie. She is constantly testing us and I can see it in the way she treats my Mother part of the time.
Our last GSD didn't respect my nephew's daughter either but thank goodness she was a kind a loving dog and only squeezed between or body-slammed her when she got too close to me. I would never trust Rosie with a child unsupervised at this point in her training and she loves kids.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Ok, I didn't read every reply so maybe this has been covered, but..

Dogs will behave as dogs and children will act like children.

I raised three children with GSDs and this is my opinion.

Train your dog for sure - sounds like you're working on that, but do not rely on training to guarantee safety.

Training the dog - especially in areas that just don't seem natural to them (share my rawhide???) is only half the battle. Children (and a lot of adults for that matter) need to know how to behave around dogs and what triggers certain responses.

Since a young child, baby, cannot understand this, you have to control those scenarios.

Never let your baby 'test' your dog. Don't expect your dog to 'share' with baby. Never put your child in this type of situation, please.

I don't think taking the rawhide and kenneling the dog is enough to say the 'dog will probably not do this again.' And 'probably' isn't good enough when the safely of a baby is at stake.

Your dog is probably a good dog, but is being tested (11 months old?) beyond what he is able to control.

Health, challenge, environment - hey, they can have a bad day too - can cause your dog to react only once in a dangerous way. That once may scar your baby, or worse.

Bottom line - children and dogs are unpredictable.. don't leave them alone together, don't let your child ever take anything from your dog's mouth. Please!


----------

