# How big of a problem do I have???



## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

I have a gorgous 13 month old female GSD weighing in at 80lbs. She is my 1st GS, but I was raised with them in my home as pets, & my father trained others for confirmation, so I am familiar with their behavior a bit. Other than the dog aggression she is very well behaved, obedient, & eager to please. She came into out home at 8 weeks old. I also have 3 other dogs in the home. Two chi's, & one Bassett hound. At 8 weeks she was very good aggressive, & dog aggressive, but amazing with ppl, & continues to be. She has however attacked my old hound on Christmas Eve, bc she came around the corner as the GS (then around 9 months) was opening a bag of Christmas wrapped dog treats. The fight was terrifying. The hound rolled over, but my GS had to be pulled off of her. The hound had puncture wounds in her head, & a gash in her belly. Fast forward two months, & the GS attacks my 11 year old chi just for running up to me and wanting to sit in my lap. Leaves a 4 inch gash in her neck. From that the interaction with the dogs have been monitored closely. A few days later she attacked the smaller younger chi for the same thing. My best guess is jealousy. This might sound crazy, but I know the days when is not a good idea to let one of the other dogs just run up to me. Like tonight, I was in bed, GS was next to me, I'm watching tv, daughter opens the door, and asks if it's ok for the chi to get into the dog bed that is in my room. I had a bad feeling so I said sure but make sure she gets straight into her bed. Well she didn't, she ran up to the side of my bed. GS immediately jumps on her snarling. I had to pull her off. Luckily enough no damage was done this time. Also, when she sees other dogs in public she goes crazy. She is always on lead, & has been socialized immensely since the day I brought her home. I'm starting to be scared to leave her alone in the house during the day with the others. Any ideas, or suggestions would be amazing. I love her beyond words.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Find a trainer and do not leave her alone with your other dogs. Live a crate and rotate lifestyle. This is not something to play around with.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

I don't crate any of my dogs, ever. Unless traveling. We are rotating them in rooms, & that's working well, but we can't continue that forever. They all stay alone in the house all day every day with no problems. I have doggie doors going outside. It's seems the problem is only when we are home, & attention is wanted.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

I have a trainer. My father is best trainer I know, but unless he's living in my home there is nothing he can do that I can't while I am here. So, hopefully there is a way to fix this. She does have a shock, & on days when we are all home, & roaming doing daily activities she wears it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Artemis79 said:


> I don't crate any of my dogs, ever. Unless traveling. We are rotating them in rooms, & that's working well, but we can't continue that forever. They all stay alone in the house all day every day with no problems. I have doggie doors going outside. It's seems the problem is only when we are home, & attention is wanted.


It sounds like resource guarding. It has been escalating and now your where you are. This is about training, management and leadership. I have one that started this crap and I wasn't having it. We are almost past it, I give it another couple months yet. I would suggest you get crates and never leave these dogs alone together. I would not trust doors that can be open in error. Your GSD is escalating and the chances of her seriously hurting or killing the other dogs is very real. You need a trainer to evaluate her to see if it's a resource guarding issue. Some things that can be done is no more furniture for the dogs, no more toys laying around, food and treats while separated. Do not allow her to be in front of you--move her or walk away but don't let her get into a guarding position. You have to be firm with this dog and make sure your other dogs are protected--they are counting on you. I have two that will never get along. They got into a fight in January and I've tried putting them together(the GSD always has a basket muzzle on when I do) and the feeling of dislike seems to be mutual. I'm not fond of crate and rotate but it is what it is. I purchased a $650 crate so the one can't escape and get himself killed. 

Please do not dismiss this. Neutering my male did make a difference but I held out until his growth plates closed. I'm not sure if yours is fixed and I'm not sure it would help anyway.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

llombardo said:


> It sounds like resource guarding. It has been escalating and now your where you are. This is about training, management and leadership. I have one that started this crap and I wasn't having it. We are almost past it, I give it another couple months yet. I would suggest you get crates and never leave these dogs alone together. I would not trust doors that can be open in error. Your GSD is escalating and the chances of her seriously hurting or killing the other dogs is very real. You need a trainer to evaluate her to see if it's a resource guarding issue. Some things that can be done is no more furniture for the dogs, no more toys laying around, food and treats while separated. Do not allow her to be in front of you--move her or walk away but don't let her get into a guarding position. You have to be firm with this dog and make sure your other dogs are protected--they are counting on you. I have two that will never get along. They got into a fight in January and I've tried putting them together(the GSD always has a basket muzzle on when I do) and the feeling of dislike seems to be mutual. I'm not fond of crate and rotate but it is what it is. I purchased a $650 crate so the one can't escape and get himself killed.
> 
> Please do not dismiss this. Neutering my male did make a difference but I held out until his growth plates closed. I'm not sure if yours is fixed and I'm not sure it would help anyway.




Thank you so much for your reply, they are all fixed, & are all females. I do have crates/kennels. I just haven't ever used them. I don't understand what triggers her. These dogs all sleep in bed with me with no problems for over a year now. Believe me, it's not being dismissed, or I would not have looked for advice here. I know nothing about resource guarding.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Artemis79 said:


> Thank you so much for your reply, they are all fixed, & are all females. I do have crates/kennels. I just haven't ever used them. I don't understand what triggers her. These dogs all sleep in bed with me with no problems for over a year now. Believe me, it's not being dismissed, or I would not have looked for advice here. I know nothing about resource guarding.


I never had one until my youngest came along. It's been a learning experience. I don't see any triggers either, he just didn't want the other dog(it is my older GSD) by me. He tried doing it with a couple of the others but they just ignore him. He actually stopped when they ignored him. Not letting him in front of me helped quite a bit. 

You also have 3 females and same sex aggression is very real. Females tend to not forget and yours seems to fall in this category. Even with management that can be dangerous. At this point I would keep the GSD by herself and let the other two be together. Don't bd surprised if it has to be like that permanently. One mistake can be fatal.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

llombardo said:


> I never had one until my youngest came along. It's been a learning experience. I don't see any triggers either, he just didn't want the other dog(it is my older GSD) by me. He tried doing it with a couple of the others but they just ignore him. He actually stopped when they ignored him. Not letting him in front of me helped quite a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> You also have 3 females and same sex aggression is very real. Females tend to not forget and yours seems to fall in this category. Even with management that can be dangerous. At this point I would keep the GSD by herself and let the other two be together. Don't bd surprised if it has to be like that permanently. One mistake can be fatal.




There is no warning, she just attacks. The other 3 dogs are very old, & roll immediately when they see her coming, she's a bully.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Artemis79 said:


> There is no warning, she just attacks. The other 3 dogs are very old, & roll immediately when they see her coming, she's a bully.


She charges at them, puffed up chest and tail in the air?


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

llombardo said:


> She charges at them, puffed up chest and tail in the air?




Never noticed what her tail does, & her hair is so long. It happens so fast with no warning at 
all. She just hops on top of them, snarling. They immediately roll over. Like she jumped directly off the bed onto the little dog. She's on them and growling almost at the same moment.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

llombardo said:


> She charges at them, puffed up chest and tail in the air?




I can say I notice how alert she is when she is in that mood. If that makes any sense. Like she hops to attention. It's so hard to actually say there is no waring bc that same lil
cho has done that same thing 100's of time with no problems. She just gets so furious so fast.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You have two small dogs and an old dog and an adolescent, dog-aggressive gsd who is looking to run the show. You have a very serious problem and it will get worse as she matures. I would condition her to a muzzle and have her in it and leashed whenever she is out with the other dogs. When you can't directly supervise you need to crate her. The last thing you want is to come home one day and find that she's killed one of your dogs. There are members on here who have something like this happen so please don't think it couldn't happen in your household. 

I would not allow her on your bed right now and I would be sure you are following NILIF and other protocols that will allow to make clear to her that you are a clear and confident leader and not a resource to be guarded. 

There are people on this board who live with a crate and rotate situation in order to keep their dogs safe. This may be what you'll need to do. I personally wouldn't be using a shock collar unless you really know what you're doing. If she determines that the aversive happens when the other dog is there she might redirect onto the dog. Just out of curiosity: Have you corrected her (with the e-collar or otherwise) for growling at any point? 

Please do consult an experienced trainer to help you with this before things escalate any more.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So what does your father say about this? He is there and able to observe the dog in person. Even if he has never seen her attack he should be able to get some kind of read. My trainer knew things about my dog that I never once mentioned within 5 minutes of meeting him. 
What are you doing with the e collar. does the dog know that she controls the stim or does she think it just comes on at random times? In another post you said that your dog will bite the throat of stuffed animals in a primal fashion while falling asleep. What makes you think that one day it won't decide to fall asleep while throat biting one of the little dogs. I think separation is important right now. I also think maybe a visit to another trainer experienced with aggressive GSD's should be on your IT. Right now its just stuffed animals and small dogs. Maybe someday its your niece,nephew,friends kid, spouse, etc...


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

llombardo said:


> It sounds like resource guarding.


It looks exactly what it is. Here is another great post about resource guarding from another thread. Mine does that too but in a very mild form, mostly when I'm kneeling down or sitting on the ground. But I'm working on correcting this behavior before it escalates any further. Here is the post:

"
Originally Posted by Castlemaid View Post
Hi Mark, 

If you would like some help, try and be open and not take offense if some of the suggestions people make rub you the wrong way. You may have to change your view about Niko and and how you view your relationship in order to get control of this behaviour. 

What you are seeing is not protectiveness, but resource guarding. Puppies and one year-olds are not mature enough to develop this type of protectiveness. Resource guarding is very common, and is seen even in young puppies. Basically, Niko has considers you as HIS, and he does not want to share. Though initially this sounds like loyalty, it isn't. He regards you as a precious resource, in the same category as food, a bone, a favorite toy. 

Usually when resource guarding of a human happens, especially the owner and handler, it means there is a break-down in pack structure. He is controlling you, but deciding who gets to interact with you. As said above, (but you might have misunderstood the reason behind the previous opinions), and he has been allowed to resource guard you for a long time, and each time he does, it reinforces in his mind that you are a possession. 

It can be a bit of a shock for people to learn this. If you think about it, a subordinate member of the pack would never even dream of controlling the leader in this way, of making decisions for the Alpha. I don't really see him as an Alpha dog (real Alphas are super-duper rare, and a nightmare to live with. What you have is a confident pup (good job on that!), that was allowed to resource guard from an early age, and now it has affected how he sees himself in relationship to you. 

Many people see it as protective behaviour, and want to encourage this. But true protective behaviour comes from a place of inner confidence, and is called upon when a real threat arises, not when a human wants to socialize with friends, or wants to pet another dog. 

Pack leadership is gained (and lost), through ongoing small daily interactions with our dogs. Often the process of a dog deciding that they are above the human is so subtle that we don't even realize that we lost control. A well trained dog that is eager to please will continue to listen well, and try to please its owner, because they have made positive associations with those behaviours (so good job on the training!), but sometimes it is in other small ways that they assert their control in ways that they can - like controlling who comes near you. 

So no one misunderstood, the advice is the same: Yes, it will get worse. Yes, it is normal for a dog to resource guard, not normal for a dog that knows it's place to resource guard his or her human. 

The good news is that if you already have a strong basis of obedience training on Niko, you can use this to take back control. Use the obedience in any situation that there might be resource guarding. Start drills, and get a sit stay, or other obedience exercise going where he has to listen to you, and can't at the same time run, bark, chase, and act in anyway that shows that he is trying to control the situation. 

No, breaking him of resource guarding now won't take away his protectiveness, which should start coming out when he is older. 

So bottom line, short version of the above: He is resource guarding you. Don't allow it, and you're good!

"
Link to the original post: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/633297-overprotective.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm pretty sure there is more then one thing going on here and the combination is not a good one. You got the GSDs age(she is maturing), it has been escalating, the resource guarding and the same sex issue. In the past when Apollo had charged at Midnite it ended there, he did not go into a full blown attack or put his teeth on him. That is not acceptable and in my case I'm thankful that Midnite just walked away. i have taken all the advice I got from trainers and it has worked, but mine was not causing physucsl damage to other dogs, so it might have been easier to stop. He has become more playful, especially with my female gsd(she won't put up with his crap and he knows it) and he has taken a liking to my older golden and I catch him playing with him quite often. Apollo wasn't even allowed to play or be outside with the other dogs for about a month. He wanted to be out there and I kept telling him if he wasn't such a jerk he would be(I know he didn't understand but I still told him) in that month I worked on solid leave its, recalls and drop its. I don't give him a chance to charge, bully or posture himself over any of the dogs. His face changes when he is about to do something stupid, so I know and I immediately give him a leave it and have him do something else.


In this case a trainer needs to be hands on.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Artemis79 said:


> They all stay alone in the house all day every day with no problems.





Artemis79 said:


> I do have crates/kennels. I just haven't ever used them. I don't understand what triggers her. These dogs all sleep in bed with me......


She is maturing, and she's now attacked your other dogs at least 3 times. Your thread title asks how big of a problem you have, and people are telling you that you may have a very serious problem that's just beginning and will likely get worse. Please take the advice seriously. 

You really need to manage the situation better, starting by not leaving them alone in the house anymore. Just because it's been fine so far, that doesn't mean that one day you won't come home to a dead dog. Can you live with that risk?

Start crating her, and don't let her sleep in bed with you. Even when you can directly supervise, it sounds like things go south very quickly, so if all the dogs are loose together, please consider keeping her on leash. 

It sounds like you want a training solution, but this situation cries out for strict management policies.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> So what does your father say about this? He is there and able to observe the dog in person. Even if he has never seen her attack he should be able to get some kind of read. My trainer knew things about my dog that I never once mentioned within 5 minutes of meeting him.
> What are you doing with the e collar. does the dog know that she controls the stim or does she think it just comes on at random times? In another post you said that your dog will bite the throat of stuffed animals in a primal fashion while falling asleep. What makes you think that one day it won't decide to fall asleep while throat biting one of the little dogs. I think separation is important right now. I also think maybe a visit to another trainer experienced with aggressive GSD's should be on your IT. Right now its just stuffed animals and small dogs. Maybe someday its your niece,nephew,friends kid, spouse, etc...




No, he's not here. We live hours apart. It's a shame really. It would be amazing if he was.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Thank you all so much for the replies. 1st of all my father lives too far away from me. I really do wish he was closer. He agrees it's a big problem, & again I do know that. To whomever said leash her. I can't walk around my house with a dog on a lead all day. That's impossible. Separation works, & I am implementing that. She can not get to the other dogs when we separate them. Crates will not be used. The 2 smaller ones get carried to and from the door to go out to a separate yard. Problem solved there. That's how I have kept them alive until a moment of bad judgment and the occurrence last night happened. I am very familiar, & know what I'm doing with the shock. I prefer training with positive behavior. 
She doesn't get between me and the other dogs on a daily basis, they all sit in line and get treats, & wait to load up in the car, & get in bed, so what's causing the aggression so randomly? Am I sure it's this resource guarding? She has zero problem with humans. So far..... Yes I did write about her in another post. I'm very curious if anyone else's dogs do that. Very! There are no small children in this home. My kids are grown. There are no small children that have ever been, or will be around her except in a few local pet stores we frequent, & she always sits bc she knows she has to to be petted. Again, I am not "letting this go" or "ignoring the problem" I'm trying to figure out what it is, what's causing it, & honestly I'm not positive it's resource guarding.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Also, this dogs was raised, & purchased for protection. She must roam the property freely.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Artemis79 said:


> To whomever said leash her. I can't walk around my house with a dog on a lead all day. That's impossible.


It's actually not impossible. But I'm only suggesting that she be on leash when the dogs are all out together, in the situations you've described where she's previously attacked one of the others. If they are all constantly separated, it wouldn't ever be necessary. Many people use a leash as a tether when they have young puppies, to keep them from wandering off, or with a new rescue dog. Something like this would be very doable - it's hands free, and she could only be a short distance from you at any time: Amazon.com : The Buddy System - Adjustable Hands Free Leash - Great for Running - Regular Dog : Pet Leashes : Pet Supplies 



Artemis79 said:


> *Crates will not be used. *The 2 smaller ones get carried to and from the door to go out to a separate yard. Problem solved there. That's how I have kept them alive until *a moment of bad judgment and the occurrence last night happened*.


Alrighty, then. Hopefully your separation techniques are 100% failsafe and there won't be any more moments of bad judgement. Good luck.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It's actually not impossible. But I'm only suggesting that she be on leash when the dogs are all out together, in the situations you've described where she's previously attacked one of the others. If they are all constantly separated, it wouldn't ever be necessary. Many people use a leash as a tether when they have young puppies, to keep them from wandering off, or with a new rescue dog. Something like this would be very doable - it's hands free, and she could only be a short distance from you at any time: Amazon.com : The Buddy System - Adjustable Hands Free Leash - Great for Running - Regular Dog : Pet Leashes : Pet Supplies
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's a really cool lead! We do run, so that would be amazing for that.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

or you just tie the lead to a belt loop. at the very least have her dragging a line when they are together


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Artemis79 said:


> Thank you all so much for the replies. 1st of all my father lives too far away from me. I really do wish he was closer. He agrees it's a big problem, & again I do know that. To whomever said leash her. I can't walk around my house with a dog on a lead all day. That's impossible. Separation works, & I am implementing that. She can not get to the other dogs when we separate them. Crates will not be used. The 2 smaller ones get carried to and from the door to go out to a separate yard. Problem solved there. That's how I have kept them alive until a moment of bad judgment and the occurrence last night happened. I am very familiar, & know what I'm doing with the shock. I prefer training with positive behavior.
> She doesn't get between me and the other dogs on a daily basis, they all sit in line and get treats, & wait to load up in the car, & get in bed, so what's causing the aggression so randomly? Am I sure it's this resource guarding? She has zero problem with humans. So far..... Yes I did write about her in another post. I'm very curious if anyone else's dogs do that. Very! There are no small children in this home. My kids are grown. There are no small children that have ever been, or will be around her except in a few local pet stores we frequent, & she always sits bc she knows she has to to be petted. Again, I am not "letting this go" or "ignoring the problem" I'm trying to figure out what it is, what's causing it, & honestly I'm not positive it's resource guarding.


Let me tell you a story about carrying a dog through the house. We had to do this many years ago. The aggressor did not care and she grabbed the dog by his back leg and wouldn't let go--literally ripped the dog out of my moms hands and did major damage. No carrying the dogs will not be safe and I would rethink that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> or you just tie the lead to a belt loop.


I tried that at the park once, while training Halo. It was an on leash only park surrounded by houses, so I didn't want to just have her drag a long line, in case someone saw and complained. Turns out, she's much stronger than the belt loop on my shorts was, lol. :wild:


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I tried that at the park once, while training Halo. It was an on leash only park surrounded by houses, so I didn't want to just have her drag a long line, in case someone saw and complained. Turns out, she's much stronger than the belt loop on my shorts was, lol. :wild:




I can imagine. Especially if you are caught off guard.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can't safely train a dog to protect you if she is out of control and she is. I don't know why you won't use crates. My two, one male, one female, escalate play to the point of near aggression and I stop it immediately so we don't end up with a situation like you have. If they don't calm down immediately, they are crated for a time out period. I would not put a dog in a position where she can be injured or can injure another dog. A dog used for protection must be very stable first. It sounds like you have let her get away with this because you mistakenly thought she would be a better protection dog. I'm not an expert on protection, so I have nothing to offer there, but I would not own dogs that can't be left unsupervised together even for a minute.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I tried that at the park once, while training Halo. It was an on leash only park surrounded by houses, so I didn't want to just have her drag a long line, in case someone saw and complained. Turns out, she's much stronger than the belt loop on my shorts was, lol. :wild:


true. but it works ok in most situations just around the house.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I also don't understand why you are so adamantly against using crates in this situation. 

You are going to end up with a dead chihuahua on your hands if you dont do something about this. Just the size difference alone. Your gsd may not end up inflicting far more damage then she intends and kill your chi. And if she DOES intend to go for the kill the Chi does not stand a chance. 2 seconds is all it takes for your shepherd to pick the chihuahua up and fatal shake. Snapping the little dog's neck or causing massive brain damage. 

I had to live the crate rotation lifestyle with two dogs that did not get along. It's doable. You get into a routine with it. 

I would not trust doors alone to safely separate your dogs. My 10 month gsd chewed a german shepherd sized hole in the bottom of my bathroom door in less than an hour. My boyfriend's shepherd worries door knobs until the door opens. An old dog of mine would just body slam doors and break the hinges or latch. Regular household doors are not good enough for a determined shepherd in my experience.

Accidents happen. You might be in a rush and the door wasn't closed all the way. The shepherd might make her way through the door like my 3. 

When I was not home, my two who hated each other were crated in separate rooms with doors closed. Could you not at the very least crate the chis? Even get an xxl kennel so they have ample room. 

If you dad can't see the dogs to evaluate them in person, it might be in everyone's best interest to hire a local trainer who can.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I also don't understand why you are so adamantly against using crates in this situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am against crates bc the GS is way too active, the chis are way too old, & I know the separation I'm implementing now is working fine. If the dog doors are closed the GS has one part of the house and a closed yard to her self, as do the others. I'd rather see the two lil 
Chis in Bedroom alone in a bed then kenneled. Plus they both take fluid pills twice daily. They can't hold it. The basset stays away from them all. She's really not even in the equation. She has a few months left if one. What I can't figure is why this is happening so randomly. It's not like she tries to attack them every time she lays eyes on them. Something has to be a trigger. They all sleep in the bed, with me. So why can they sometimes (or used to) be together and all of a sudden she looses it. I'm looking for a reason. Believe me the dogs are separated correctly.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

I keep hearing it might be resource guarding, but am I sure? No, I'm not.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Artemis79 said:


> I am against crates bc the GS is way too active, the chis are way too old, & I know the separation I'm implementing now is working fine. If the dog doors are closed the GS has one part of the house and a closed yard to her self, as do the others. I'd rather see the two lil
> Chis in Bedroom alone in a bed then kenneled. Plus they both take fluid pills twice daily. They can't hold it. The basset stays away from them all. She's really not even in the equation. She has a few months left if one. What I can't figure is why this is happening so randomly. It's not like she tries to attack them every time she lays eyes on them. Something has to be a trigger. They all sleep in the bed, with me. So why can they sometimes (or used to) be together and all of a sudden she looses it. I'm looking for a reason. Believe me the dogs are separated correctly.




& when the dog doors are closed for the GS the basset is in the same part of the property with her, no probs ever. They play, when the old basset is up to it.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

You need to separate her from the other dogs when you are not home. Until you have more control and obedience on this dog I would not let her near the other dogs. What you are doing is really unfair to all of the dogs. 

If you don't separate them, you will come home to a dead dog one day. If your father is a good trainer as you say, get with him immediately to train both you and your dog.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Artemis79 said:


> & when the dog doors are closed for the GS the basset is in the same part of the property with her, no probs ever. They play, when the old basset is up to it.


The GSD attacked the basset on Christmas Eve. You are playing with fire.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> You need to separate her from the other dogs when you are not home. Until you have more control and obedience on this dog I would not let her near the other dogs. What you are doing is really unfair to all of the dogs.
> 
> If you don't separate them, you will come home to a dead dog one day. If your father is a good trainer as you say, get with him immediately to train both you and your dog.




They are separated. I keep having to repeat that. Very curious about this, but If it's resource guarding, & I'm the resource, then why would she harm them if I'm not home? I really want to understand. 

My father is an amazing trainer. I really don't want to involve him. He has 12 of his own working dogs, over 300 head of cattle, & is 75 years old. I don't need him to worry.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Artemis79 said:


> They are separated. I keep having to repeat that. Very curious about this, but If it's resource guarding, & I'm the resource, then why would she harm them if I'm not home? I really want to understand.
> 
> My father is an amazing trainer. I really don't want to involve him. He has 12 of his own working dogs, over 300 head of cattle, & is 75 years old. I don't need him to worry.


Then hire another trainer. You need one. 

Resources can be a toy, water bowl, sleeping spots etc. You maybe the resource she is guarding NOW but it could end up being another one some day down the road.

That is if it IS resource guarding. 

Which is why you need an evaluation with an experienced trainer in person.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Then hire another trainer. You need one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

So can someone please tell me a little more about resource guarding? For instance why it has only happened 3 times in a year, & anything else you might think of?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I don't see this as resource guarding.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I don't see this as resource guarding.




What do you see it as?


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I read the whole thread and I'm going to jump in here. You need a behaviorist to come in and evaluate your household. Someone who is there seeing what is going on. Noone can tell you from an online forum what is going on with your dog, I know you want answers, but you won't find them here with certainty.

The only certainty we can offer you is that if you don't change something in your household, you are putting your smaller dogs in danger.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Rosy831 said:


> I read the whole thread and I'm going to jump in here. You need a behaviorist to come in and evaluate your household. Someone who is there seeing what is going on. Noone can tell you from an online forum what is going on with your dog, I know you want answers, but you won't find them here with certainty.
> 
> The only certainty we can offer you is that if you don't change something in your household, you are putting your smaller dogs in danger.




I completely agree. Which I am in search of. I just wanted to hear some others stories.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have a young bitch who has a problem with same-sex aggression at home. And, most likely is dog-reactive in general away from home. 

She has way too much freedom. The other three dogs get along together, fine, they can be together when you are not home, this dog ought to be properly crated or kenneled. 

And until she is under control, you should crate her for the night too. 

What we have is blood between females. The only people who should keep bitches once there has been blood between them, are people who are willing and able to crate/rotate + commitment to continuous training and management, or people who are going to kennel them separately forever. This person has to understand that lack of vigilance or an accident can mean death to one of their dogs, and they CANNOT hold that against the bitch. It's on the human. If you have kids, it is not on the kid, it is on the adult who chose to keep multiple females, and to put them and their kids in a crappy situation. 

If this is not what you signed up for, It is far kinder on everyone to rehome the younger bitch to a home who agrees to have just the one dog, and understands the entire problem. 

A shock collar for this problem is both inappropriate and likely to escalate issues. 

I know you love your dog. Dogs. Can you still love her the same if she kills one of your other dogs? 

If you have kids, your bitch is unlikely to attack your kid or kids. But, the likelihood of your kid getting bitten trying to pull the dog off of your other dog is huge. That bite will require medical attention. Is it fair to you kid? Coming home to a dead dog, is that fair to your kid? Watching one of the dogs your kid loves chew up and severely injure or kill another dog your kid loves -- is that fair to your kid?

If you have a kid or kids, then rehome the younger bitch. 

Keeping bitches is always kind of a question mark. There is no way to know when a pup is 8 weeks old or 5 months old whether it will be likely to have a problem with same-sex aggression. Introducing another dog into a pack of bitches is always shaky too, because they dynamics are going to change, and when they do, things that worked previously may not work any more. 

Bitches can be fine together, until they aren't. 

My advice is to rehome the younger bitch, then do not get another dog until you are down to one female, and then bring in a male.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I agree with Selzer. It bothers me that you are relying on your father's expertise as a trainer when he's not nearby or available. He isn't even a part of this equation, since he didn't teach you his skills. I can say I have an awesome behavior specialist available, which I do, but he's not in my home. If I have a problem, I need to make an appointment and work with him on that problem in real time, not rely on the fact that I've used him before. 

Having to rehome a dog is horrible. We all feel badly for you. But if you researched female on female aggression before bringing in another female, this very issue would have come up. I currently have an older female and when we were getting a puppy, I double checked with my trainer who said to get a male. Our female isn't aggressive at all but she's used to being the boss and I didn't want female fights. 

I may be wrong but it looks like you have asked for inputs but only want to take the ones you agree with. Which means I'm not going to offer any further advice.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

I specifically stated that I was in fact not relying on his advice, & he was not at all a part of the equation. I did say I was, & have been looking for a specialist before this forum. I haven't taken anyones advice, agreed, or disagreed with anything said here. I am well aware of female aggression, & was before I got my GS. Dogs are a constant in my life, & always have been. This just happens to me my 1st with a GS personally. I did have a male in the home up until 3 months ago. He was here when she arrived at 8 weeks old, and left a bit after Christmas to live with my parents bc my mother needed a house dog(hers passed), & he just drools on her when she comes over otherwise rehoming is not ever an option here.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_I may be wrong but it looks like you have asked for inputs but only want to take the ones you agree with. Which means I'm not going to offer any further advice._ 

I made that decision about 3 pages ago.  It is one thing to own a difficult dog, a whole other thing to refuse to admit it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I think the confusion stems from the first page of this thread. When it was suggested you get a trainer you responded with this: 



> I have a trainer. My father is best trainer I know, but unless he's living in my home there is nothing he can do that I can't while I am here. So, hopefully there is a way to fix this. She does have a shock, & on days when we are all home, & roaming doing daily activities she wears it.


You said you had a trainer. From the sounds of that post it seemed like your father was your go to trainer.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I think the confusion stems from the first page of this thread. When it was suggested you get a trainer you responded with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I see. I should have said I know a trainer. I am
looking for a behaviorist.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> _I may be wrong but it looks like you have asked for inputs but only want to take the ones you agree with. Which means I'm not going to offer any further advice._
> 
> I made that decision about 3 pages ago.  It is one thing to own a difficult dog, a whole other thing to refuse to admit it.




Again, I completely admitted it, more than once. Where are you coming up with this me not admitting I have a problem. I specifically said "I know it's a big problem" . Please read the entire thread before commenting, & assuming my intentions. Im not here to be selfish.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Let me explain, there are zero trainers, or behaviorist even remotely close to me. I live in central Louisiana. By all means let me know if you know of any. I'd happily have a consult.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You're looking for a miracle. 

Good luck on that. 


This is EXACTLY why I HATE shows like the dog whisperer or It's Me or the Dog! We have people that want their problems solved in 60 minutes or less. 

We are not even open to honest answers, even if there are children involved. Not willing to address the hard questions I asked you -- 

CAN YOU TREAT THIS BITCH THE SAME IF IT BITES YOUR KID DURING ONE OF THESE FIGHTS?

CAN YOU TREAT THIS BITCH THE SAME IF IT KILLS ONE OF YOUR OLD BITCHES? 

IF THIS BITCH KILLS ONE OF YOUR OTHER BITCHES OR BITES A CHILD OR GRAND CHILD DURING A FIGHT, ARE YOU GOING TO PUT THE BITCH DOWN? 

You have to answer these questions, you don't have to give your answer to a bunch of strangers on the internet, but you have to answer them to yourself. Rehome the bitch. It was a mistake -- you know about female aggression, but it wasn't going to happen to you. Well, you were wrong. Don't be wrong again, because it might cost one or more of your dogs their life. Do the right thing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Artemis79 said:


> Again, I completely admitted it, more than once. Where are you coming up with this me not admitting I have a problem. I specifically said "I know it's a big problem" . Please read the entire thread before commenting, & assuming my intentions. Im not here to be selfish.


I specifically said, get a trainer and crate and rotate.

Your rather flip response was that you don't care to crate your dogs and your father is the best trainer you know.

Subsequent posts reveal that your father isn't around and is not involved.

You have also said repeatedly that you will keep the other dogs safe, except in cases of bad judgement, oops. You have claimed this young bitch is for protection and therefore cannot be confined. You have refused all suggestions that this dog is a problem. 
She is. She needs a competent handler and a good trainer. Not Daddy. She needs to be in a home where her needs are met, that includes keeping her safe from herself. Where is the breeder? What is their opinion on this?
Until you can focus on what she needs instead of what you want there is no way to help you or your dogs.
I am sorry if this seems harsh, but I have been the recipient of far to many dogs just like yours who found themselves homeless after killing another pet or a neighbors pet or injuring a child or their owners. I deal with the dogs no longer wanted or never wanted. I have heard the 'I got him for protection' line far too often.
Help your dog or don't, she is yours. When you lose the ego, we can offer assistance and guidance.


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## Artemis79 (Apr 10, 2016)

Wow, I'll sadly leave this thread, & group with this being said. I come here already doing what everyone has advised, & with no ego, & get attacked, & treated like a child. I can answer to every question brought before me. All of the what if's. I work at a no kill shelter, & was fostering for over 12 years, so I too deal with the unwanted, & unadoptable. I decided to keep my small circle of dogs, & last year add my GS. I haven't represented any ego whatsoever. I wish u all the best, & goodbye.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Artemis79 said:


> .. & I'm the resource, then why would she harm them if I'm not home? I really want to understand.


I'm not an expert, but if I'm right, wolf(dogs) are opportunistic animals. Like, wolves may track their target for a long time and attack when opportunity presents. 
So probably for the same reason, just instinct. She knows that you would not let her harm them, so she picks the moment when you are not there to save them. And probably if she attacks with you in the house - the opportunity is too good to pass on and she takes the chances.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Artemis79 said:


> Wow, I'll sadly leave this thread, & group with this being said. I come here already doing what everyone has advised, & with no ego, & get attacked, & treated like a child. I can answer to every question brought before me. All of the what if's. I work at a no kill shelter, & was fostering for over 12 years, so I too deal with the unwanted, & unadoptable. I decided to keep my small circle of dogs, & last year add my GS. I haven't represented any ego whatsoever. I wish u all the best, & goodbye.


 There's the ego again. Everyone is offering help and you want to be offended. Try owning it. Stand up and say yup I screwed up can anyone help me find a way to fix it?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> There's the ego again. Everyone is offering help and you want to be offended. Try owning it. Stand up and say yup I screwed up can anyone help me find a way to fix it?


It's very hard to admit one has made a mistake with a dog that might not be fixable. I understand that and don't hold it against him, but I'm sad that he asked for advice he doesn't really want. I think he wanted a simple fix, which isn't going to be possible on a message board.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I haven't been following this post but I get the general flow.

In case the OP is still reading - these posts of a few months ago come to mind - many of you probably recall them as they all involved the death of a female dog by another female house mate.

1. The female GSD that attacked and killed the older female Beagle in the side yard when they were away at the store (mother-in-law's dog - these dogs had been together on and off for years)

2. The couple that had their female GSD in the same crate as their small female dog for the move to their new house (they went out to the car to get the dogs shortly after their arrival and found the small dog dead, obviously attacked). (these dogs grew up together)

3. The woman who had her female GSD confined to the house and her small female dog locked in a crate in the bathroom with the door closed. She came home and found the GSD had broken down the bathroom door - she found the opened crate with her small dog dead in her bedroom. (this small dog was injured a few days before and there was speculation on distress cries). 

Just a heads up OP..... All three of the above who lost their pets to female/female aggression came here and posted their grief and asked what they had done wrong. It's with this stuff in our minds and much more... that answers sometimes get short or may question your original statements. You are facing a train wreck and one of your dogs is going to be the loser - big time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was busy reaching out to some folks I know in Louisiana. Who may have been willing to help. I have little time for ego, and less for folks with blinders on. 
If the OP honestly wants help then fine. But this one doesn't. You're right quick fix, instant gratification.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I haven't been following this post but I get the general flow.
> 
> In case the OP is still reading - these posts of a few months ago come to mind - many of you probably recall them as they all involved the death of a female dog by another female house mate.
> 
> ...


I was thinking about the same stories..that the odds are highly in favour of coming home to a tragedy one day. "My dog attacked my smaller dog" along with "I never crate my dogs" has a very sad and predictable ending.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> I was busy reaching out to some folks I know in Louisiana. Who may have been willing to help. I have little time for ego, and less for folks with blinders on.
> If the OP honestly wants help then fine. But this one doesn't. You're right quick fix, instant gratification.


Maybe you could post whatever you've found in case the OP is still reading? After all, we are all here for the dogs, right?


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

There are many that lurk, read and learn, and never post about their dogs or their problems, so continuing on topic is still constructive. 
I love reading this board and all the problem solving & debates that go on.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

I think the disconnect happened when Artemis was advised about resource guarding behavior to which he answered "I don't think this is what it is" without providing any counter arguments, while the resource-guarding assessment is supported by facts and knowledge. 
Also he said that he had a trainer and the best trainer there is (his father) who in fact isn't even anywhere near to help with the issue. Those couple of things just rubbed people the wrong way I think.

Overall it is a good thread and may help lurkers for sure


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The thing is it might not be resource guarding, could be prey drive. Probably is a bit of both. Dog gets excited, starts seeing little chi as prey, boom. Impossible to say without being there.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I just skimmed through this thread and understand that this is a dangerously escalating scenario. Small dogs can be easily be maimed or killed. You know that this situation is not working and changes need to be done. It would be a good idea to Reread this thread and think what your options are to keep everyone safe.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> Maybe you could post whatever you've found in case the OP is still reading? After all, we are all here for the dogs, right?


 A 2 second google search brought up 2 IPO clubs and at least 1 large training facility that works with 'protection and LE' dogs. I have a few contacts in the state and a few more who would have contacts in the state. Without knowing where the OP is I can't offer more assistance and honestly I am not willing to put 'friends' out for someone who clearly doesn't wish to work on this, but just wants an easy out. This is also a state with multiple rescue resources that I cannot imagine would not have behavioral contacts. I networked to get a young GSD out of a shelter there and the response was pretty incredible. I happen to know, because of that, that MAGSDR has behavioral contacts in that state.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whether it is resource guarding, SSA, or prey drive, the elderly and small dog have bloody gashes in them. This will not turn out well for more than one dog. 

Sometimes the answers that people hear are too hard for them to accept. 

We do not know this person. So there is no way we can give this person direction, training advice, management advice except the advice that will totally protect the dogs. The only way to totally protect the dogs is total separation. Total separation cannot be guaranteed with children in the equation. Rehome -- and that is too hard to accept, so the whole situation is impossible.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

No, I agree Selzer. The reason is immaterial. Just for lurkers or the like, labelling a behavior like this is impossible without seeing the dog. It doesn't matter at all for a solution for the OP, but just to make a small point, truly prey-driven behavior can be very dangerous, after all it is how carnivores eat.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm, while it is true that we don't know this person, one can get feel for who one is working with by how they answer and how they respond to "input."

I found the reply to the suggestion on using a "Crate" interesting?? A person actually interested in making changing would have responded (in my view) with ... "I never thought of using a Crate or how do I do that??"

That indicates a much different "mind set than someone that says flat out "NO" and offers what most view as a pretty lame excuse as to why not.

So I guess not "everyone" can DIY dogs with "issues??" So this time I'll join the "find a trainer crowd" and post this:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7589889-post13.html

Hmm I see ... it still has a lot of DIY links but the OP only needs to view the first one.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> I don't see this as resource guarding.


+1 Be open to hiring a trainer. This is too dangerous to be dealt with on line.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm, while it is true that we don't know this person, one can get feel for who one is working with by how they answer and how they respond to "input."
> 
> I found the reply to the suggestion on using a "Crate" interesting?? A person actually interested in making changing would have responded (in my view) with ... "I never thought of using a Crate or how do I do that??"
> 
> ...


Use of crates can be cultural. People in England are less likely as a whole to use crates. Probably other countries as well. The US is made up from people from lots of different places. 1st and 2nd generation Americans might have the same aversions to crates as people living where they are generally not used.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If someone has a local resource for him and wants to get it to him, send him a private message. He can read it in email.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I've been following this thread and have a slightly different perspective.
When our pups were young, I came to you guys for advice and you hammered me pretty good, suggesting I re-home one dog or prepare to crate/rotate at all times. By the time I heard those suggestions I knew I couldn't re-home and, at the time, crate/rotate seemed cruel. As we've come to know the personalities/traits of our dogs, we now just know when they are at risk of getting into a fight (hasn't happened in a very long time). We know their body language and we manage them constantly. The constant management is the critical piece and, if they were having problems, we now know we would crate and rotate. It may come to that but we're optimistic we won't have to do that. 
The OP hasn't learned his dog's personality yet. I'll be willing to bet if he weighs in after a few months, he will have figured it out. I hope his dogs will be safe in the interim but it sounds pretty ominous in his house right now. And by the way, I am grateful now for the hammering. You were looking out for our boys when we were too ignorant to know what could happen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jake and Elwood said:


> I've been following this thread and have a slightly different perspective.
> When our pups were young, I came to you guys for advice and you hammered me pretty good, suggesting I re-home one dog or prepare to crate/rotate at all times. By the time I heard those suggestions I knew I couldn't re-home and, at the time, crate/rotate seemed cruel. As we've come to know the personalities/traits of our dogs, we now just know when they are at risk of getting into a fight (hasn't happened in a very long time). We know their body language and we manage them constantly. The constant management is the critical piece and, if they were having problems, we now know we would crate and rotate. It may come to that but we're optimistic we won't have to do that.
> The OP hasn't learned his dog's personality yet. I'll be willing to bet if he weighs in after a few months, he will have figured it out. I hope his dogs will be safe in the interim but it sounds pretty ominous in his house right now. And by the way, I am grateful now for the hammering. You were looking out for our boys when we were too ignorant to know what could happen.


 I think you are doing great with your boys, and boys can be a handful, but boys aren't bitches. Also, boys can be neutered, and it can help. Bitches, not so much. In fact, altering bitches could make matters worse. 

There is a reason people say, "Bitches = stitches" and "Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights." I have NEVER heard of someone coming home with two dogs of the same breed and one having killed the other. I have heard of people coming home with bitches of the same breed and one having killed the other. 

And your pups were littermates -- yes, yes, littermate syndrome and all that, BUT, littermates are the same age and the same breed -- unlikely to kill the other. 

We are talking about a mostly-grown GSD bitch attacking a basset hound, and attacking chis. All of them bitches, the little dogs elderly. This isn't going to end well. 

And, if there are kids in the picture, someone's kid is going to either get bitten good trying to save one of the small dogs, or they are going witness something that might turn them off dogs altogether. 

And we got an owner who is not even willing to crate the big young bitch. 

This is a recipe for disaster. 

Might it work? Sure. The probability of everyone surviving this unscathed is minimal. 

The owner has so far allowed two separate fights that we know about, that caused bloody wounds. 

Do I believe they can keep the dogs safe? No. 

Do I believe this owner will put human characteristics on her large, young bitch, and blame her when she causes the death of one of the other dogs, or causes the kid to go to the ER? Yes. 

Do I think the owner will manage the dogs, while she follows through with regular training and exercise program for the GSD? No. 

If the daughter lives there, do I think that she and her company will always make sure that there is no interaction between the shepherd and the small older dogs? No. 

The OP is unwilling to answer these questions, so we have to give it our best answer. 

Keeping a couple of male littermates -- yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Multiple bitches that are already fighting, no way. Not a job for a novice. Not a job for a pet person.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> I've been following this thread and have a slightly different perspective.
> When our pups were young, I came to you guys for advice and you hammered me pretty good, suggesting I re-home one dog or prepare to crate/rotate at all times. By the time I heard those suggestions I knew I couldn't re-home and, at the time, crate/rotate seemed cruel. As we've come to know the personalities/traits of our dogs, we now just know when they are at risk of getting into a fight (hasn't happened in a very long time). We know their body language and we manage them constantly. The constant management is the critical piece and, if they were having problems, we now know we would crate and rotate. It may come to that but we're optimistic we won't have to do that.
> The OP hasn't learned his dog's personality yet. I'll be willing to bet if he weighs in after a few months, he will have figured it out. I hope his dogs will be safe in the interim but it sounds pretty ominous in his house right now. And by the way, I am grateful now for the hammering. You were looking out for our boys when we were too ignorant to know what could happen.


Thanks for the input! 

And yes "we" can be a pretty anal group, some more so than others. 

Had I known "then" what I know now, I would not have had "my" issues with my first OS WL GSD. Live and learn as they say. 

If people are "lucky" they have dogs that can stand up to a pounding while they get up to speed. 

If they happen to have a GSD with an attitude and a little dog involvement ... there is not a lot of room for a "learning curve" dogs could *"Die"* while an owner is getting his crap together, pretty much that simple.

That is the boat the OP is in and they seem to have acknowledged that they were well aware of the female v female thing?? 

And now as they say "here we are."


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I never want to see a fight between female dogs again. I've seen many male dog fights and there is often a "stop point".... where a new balance is established eventually and there is dominant and subordinate.

Not with females as they are not driven by the same instincts. The op went into some detail about the fights being unprovoked and the GSD flashing out of the blue dropping the small dog. This just won't end well.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Chip, StoneVintage, Selzer: I am afraid you are correct. This is not going to end well for the OP. There is an extremely high risk that dogs will be painfully maimed and/or killed and humans may also be injured or worse. There is such little room for error with GSD's compared to many other breeds so when novice GSD owners are trying to get up to speed it is painful for all watching from the wings. I (obviously a novice) have also found myself wanting to lash out at others for allowing their dogs to be put in danger. I have to exercise restraint. 
If OP is still reading…..please realize this is serious business and your dogs are all in grave danger. No one doubts you want the best for all of them but, while you are trying to figure it out…..your GSD is reaching havoc on the other dogs in your home. Please protect all of them. Crates are your best friend and your dogs will be happy and feel safe/secure in their crates. They treat their crates like a den….their own little personal space….the only space where they can relax and not have to be on guard. You are doing them a dis-service by not providing a den for your dogs. It's a mind set….the crate is not a prison cell…it is a home…a safe space. Working dogs have trouble "turning off the lights and locking the doors" so to speak. They are always on guard. Putting them in their little safe home (crate) gives them permission to relax and take their pack off.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Use of crates can be cultural. People in England are less likely as a whole to use crates. Probably other countries as well. The US is made up from people from lots of different places. 1st and 2nd generation Americans might have the same aversions to crates as people living where they are generally not used.


Oh most likely your correct?? I have no idea where the OP is located?? I did not look ... not my thing. 

I only look at "problems" and strive for solutions but if someone says before I even post ... "I'm not using a crate" then I'm out!

The "Pros" thast could successfully "deal" with this issue would "ALL" crate train this dog!

They would train "Place" and would advise "no free roaming in the house," pretty much that simple. If doing that is an alien "concept" in "England" than maybe they have "softer" dogs there then we do here?? I have no idea??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Chip, StoneVintage, Selzer: I am afraid you are correct. This is not going to end well for the OP. There is an extremely high risk that dogs will be painfully maimed and/or killed and humans may also be injured or worse. There is such little room for error with GSD's compared to many other breeds so when novice GSD owners are trying to get up to speed it is painful for all watching from the wings. I (obviously a novice) have also found myself wanting to lash out at others for allowing their dogs to be put in danger. I have to exercise restraint.
> If OP is still reading…..please realize this is serious business and your dogs are all in grave danger. No one doubts you want the best for all of them but, while you are trying to figure it out…..your GSD is reaching havoc on the other dogs in your home. Please protect all of them. Crates are your best friend and your dogs will be happy and feel safe/secure in their crates. They treat their crates like a den….their own little personal space….the only space where they can relax and not have to be on guard. You are doing them a dis-service by not providing a den for your dogs. It's a mind set….the crate is not a prison cell…it is a home…a safe space. Working dogs have trouble "turning off the lights and locking the doors" so to speak. They are always on guard. Putting them in their little safe home (crate) gives them permission to relax and take their pack off.


Never thought of it like that but very well said.


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