# Input on this combo?



## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Input on this pedigree combo? Good,Bad? I am thinking it should be a nice combo knowing the dogs and the way they both work. I've had a lot of good reviews on the pairing pedigree so far but am curious as to what some others think? 

Line-breeding for the progency of Osyrius SilverKrome GTOVonMarionHaus and Galaxan of Kreative - German Shepherd Dog


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see posters saying all the time, breed / get puppies from parents with titles, the female has only a CGC, your male a cgc, dock diving and RN. 

Comment on combo? no comment here, but just 'saying' on titles and breeding I see no OFA's either, but could be they just didn't put them in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CGC is going to be recognized as a 'title' Hope people don't decide that is a good enough one to warrant breeding.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I agree on the titles - my question for the breeder would be why did they want to breed these dogs before they were titled in a sport and/or working venue? To me CGC doesn't mean much as a stand alone title, but is a great thing to have in addition to obedience, herding, IPO etc titles, or in addition to the dog being a "working" dog(Farm herder, therapy, Police etc).

Also, you can look up both dogs on OFA, both have "good" hips and "normal" elbows.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

As someone who is trying to learn about pedigrees, I would be more interested in reading about the good or bad of this genetic combination rather than a discussion about the dogs titles. Just because two dogs are IPO3 FH2s don't mean they are a good genetic match.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow. Where did I say I was doing the breeding? I didn't. The male will have his 1 before the breeding happens,if it does. Both dogs can work and do work. Both are personal protection dogs. Furthermore, all health testing has been done. Both are DM clear as well. I am one who believes that the titles don't make the dog. My dog after HR is titled will still work the same as he does now. 

We are hoping that the female is titled before the breeding but it depends on her owners work schedule and when/if we decide to do this. Probably about a year out so both dogs should be titled. 

I was just looking for input on the pedigree combo since it would br a complete outcross. Hence the reason I posted in the bloodlines and pedigrees section.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

robk said:


> As someone who is trying to learn about pedigrees, I would be more interested in reading about the good or bad of this genetic combination rather than a discussion about the dogs titles. Just because two dogs are IPO3 FH2s don't mean they are a good genetic match.


That's what I wanted too. I have my opinions on it but wad curious SD to what others saw in the pedigree combo.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Unfortuantely, too many think titles are what make the dog, not genetics. I think genetics should always be looked at first along with the health of the lines.

I honestly cannot give you any help with the pedigree though. I would pm cliffson


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Wow. Where did I say I was doing the breeding? I didn't. The male will have his 1 before the breeding happens,if it does. Both dogs can work and do work. Both are personal protection dogs. Furthermore, all health testing has been done. Both are DM clear as well. I am one who believes that the titles don't make the dog. My dog after HR is titled will still work the same as he does now.
> 
> We are hoping that the female is titled before the breeding but it depends on her owners work schedule and when/if we decide to do this. Probably about a year out so both dogs should be titled.
> 
> I was just looking for input on the pedigree combo since it would br a complete outcross. Hence the reason I posted in the bloodlines and pedigrees section.


The first thing I did when you posted the pedigrees, was to look at them and see if there were any dogs I recognized. Some nice dogs showed up, no red flags, but I would still ask anyone I was hoping to get a dog from WHY these two lines/dogs?

The second was to look at OFFA.ORG to check if any testing was done through them. There was and the results were good. Check.

The last in looking for a dog is to look at titles, because yes genetics and health are important, but as someone buying a dog from someone I don't know, I want to see if the dogs have been assessed independantly, by someone who does not have a stake in this dog and its litters produced. 

People can always say how great their dogs are, I want you to show me. So from a buyers perspective I want to see how the dog was tested and how the dog came out. Titles can also mean (not always) that the handler trained the dog, so they get to know that dog inside and out. Which is always a side I want to hear about when questioning a breeder.

I also agree that titles don't make the dog, but if you have a dog who you say can perform a certain task or at a certain level, titles can help back up your claims.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> I also agree that titles don't make the dog, but if you have a dog who you say can perform a certain task or at a certain level, titles can help back up your claims.


I agree with this^^ . I track my dog 4-5 days a week, but I haven't gotten (gone) for any tracking titles so I can say my dog "works" as well. Doesn't mean I'm breeding her

If they are PP trained, why aren't they certified? 

I see alot of high competitors on this board work but they still find the time to go out and title their dogs.

You've bred your male before, so I guess why even ask?.

Cliff would be the one I'd be asking on the pedigree combo


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Um, because this is the place on the forum to discuss bloodlines and pedigrees.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

robk said:


> Um, because this is the place on the forum to discuss bloodlines and pedigrees.


Titles play a part in the pedigree, think of all the times you looked at one and after looking at the individual dogs, you looked at titles earned. For someone looking for an IPO sport dog, going off a ped only, I don't think they will continue looking if it is all conformation titles....just saying. They are not the end all, but they definitely contribute and/or take away from pedigree. Just like posted health results.

So out of curiosity I am asking a few questions of you as a "breeder":

Why did you choose to breed these two dogs? What is your goal with this breeding? Are you breeding for a certain "type" of dog? 

What do you think each line will bring to the table?

What Strengths vs weaknesses do you see in each dog? And can you see coming from this breeding?

What is each individual dog like to work with?

Do you own both? I see on your website that you don't own any females? Or is it just not updated?

What tools have you used to have both dogs assessed by an independant eye? What qualifications did this person have to to back up his/her conclusion?

These are questions I would ask when inquiring about a puppy from an up-coming breeding. (In addition to health etc questions)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And one other question to add to the above;

Do you have buyers willing to purchase pups when the parents don't have any titles?


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Sorry RobK, I linked the wrong quote. My post was meant for VonKromeHaus...


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> We are hoping that the female is titled before the breeding but it depends on her owners work schedule and when/if we decide to do this. Probably about a year out so both dogs should be titled.


How old is the male? I thought I had read in a previous thread that you have been trying to title him for a few years? Sorry, I can't remember if that was you who posted back then.

Has he attended any trials since then?


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

An RN is a title..just saying. I have a waiting list of people, all IPO competitors currently 8 of them waiting for a breeding. I do not own the female. I haven't chose to breed this pair yet. Not sure we will. The male is 5 and has attended 1 IPO trial in his life. We train a ton don't trial as much due to my nerves. He has been evaluated by s world level competitor and the critique was nothing but good. Conformationally, the pairing would be nice. She has what he lacks and he has what
she lacks. Working wise, she will bring s bit more fight drive and he will balance it out with some prey drive,he is more prey driven than she is. . He brings in a bit more friendliness to her higher aloofness. She brings a nice natural level
of aloofness without it being over the top. He is a little too friendly for my liking while she is a little more aloof than I like, a middle is what I want. We could get extremes of one or the other too. 

As I said, I was curious as to what others see in the crossing of the lines. The rest of it is frankly no ones business. That's why I posted in the pedigree section, not anywhere else. I wasn't looking for questions or critiques on the desicion whether or notbto breed them or on their titles or lack of. My male has sired 1 litter at the age of 5. All are doing extremely well in their intended venues. All are accounted for and microchipped with me as the secondary contact. I don't breed a lot...if ever and don't plan on it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I guess when you put something out there, no matter what forum you post in, you have to expect comments that may be outside the box

Honestly with the amount of good dogs being produced out there, if I were an IPO competitor I would be looking at a breeder who titled dogs in IPO. When one wants to play with the big dogs they normally go to the ones who play with their big dogs.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well I guess when you put something out there, no matter what forum you post in, you have to expect comments that may be outside the box
> 
> Honestly with the amount of good dogs being produced out there, if I were an IPO competitor I would be looking at a breeder who titled dogs in IPO. When one wants to play with the big dogs they normally go to the ones who play with their big dogs.


LOL - I wish there were like buttons here!


I SO FREAKIN' agree!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

My dog is a good dog and believe me, he can hang with the big dogs. I fully intend to title my dog before/if the breeding happens. He is still the same dog without the title, he needs it cause I feel he does. Obviously the people waiting for puppies who have SEEN him work and seen his puppies from the first litter feel that he is a worthy producer. I'm wondering what people will say when a couple of those on my waiting list pop up with a Judge puppy, these aren't weekend warrior type people. 

You are more than welcome to your opinion. I am a bit disappointed that a moderator was allowed to take a thread off track and cause drama. 

I will say it again, I wanted opinions on the pedigree, nothing more or less.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Is this your last litter posted on KIJIJI? Did you have a waiting list then as well? It says in the ad that you can't take deposits until pregnancy is confirmed, do you think that any of the people on the waiting list might back out?

This is your ad, correct?

Details forAKC German Shepherd Puppies 
Address:Kennewick, WA 99337 (map) 
Date Posted:01/17/11 
Age:Baby 
Offered by:BreederDescription
Here is a link to my website... www.vonkromehaus.webs.com This breeding is not taking place until spring of this coming year. I am taking reservations on this litter as of now. Deposits will NOT be taken until pregnancy is confirmed. This is a breeding worth waiting for..this pairing should produce some VERY nice working dogs and preference is given to working/sport homes. Active pet homes will be considered depending on the puppies produced. Both parents have been OFAed hips and elbows! The sire was also tested for DM and is DM Clear! I am very excited for this breeding.Please e-mail me if you are inteerested or have any questions. The sire is the one pictured, more pics available on my site! 
__________________


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

No, That ad was posted by someone else, a horrible vial ********of a person who is actually a member here. They copied my ad that I had posted on the PDB and THEY posted it on KiiJii in an attempt to make me look bad. I had a short waiting list and only had a couple to place hence the reason I posted an ad on PDB. 

No, I do not feel any of these people will back out.

I am done here. These type of things is the reason that I don't post here often. I take it none of you have any knowledge of either pedigree. Thank you for the other input.

***This is a warning. Continue to use that language and you will not be posting here anymore!! ADMIN Lisa***


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How can the same ad that was run on the pdb make you look bad on kiji?

Because it was on kiji, that makes you look bad?


> That ad was posted by someone else, a horrible vial *******of a person who is actually a member here.


posting this doesn't make you look bad?


*** No need to quote that foul word. ADMIN Lisa***


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Yes, because they felt that posting it on KiiJii would hurt my reputation as a breeder. It didn't. I requested kiiJii to take it down but they refused since I wasn't the one that put the ad up. I don't really care what that appears to other people. She is a horrible person, I have the emails to prove it.

Anyway, Mods, why don't we lock this one? Obviously no one has any input on the pedigree so there is no point to the thread anymore. Other than people digging around for "gold".


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## ImportGSD (Apr 6, 2011)

All internet shenanigans aside and commenting on only what you requested, the male has, in my opinion, the better of the two pedigrees. Neither contains the "big names" in working today but that is not a bad thing. We need these open lines to bring into the heavily saturated popular lines now and again. In terms of combining the two I would be concerned that (since this is an outcross) you take into consideration the second and third generations. While the two dogs you are considering breeding sound like they would compliment each other nicely, I would look also at their parents and grandparents. Their genetic contributions will be just as, if not moreso, indiciative of what you can expect from the breeding. If that looks good to you after you have researched it (which you very well may have already) then you will be in a good position to decide whether or not you wish to continue at that point. The bottom line is that regardless of what others think, you own the dog and the decision to breed or not breed lies with you alone. My suggestions can be taken or tossed aside, no ill will from me either way. My opinions are just that, my personal thoughts from where I sit and the picture I view from here. Your view may be much better than mine. Either way good luck in your decision making and when you do decide to trial, best of luck.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> am a bit disappointed that a moderator was allowed to take a thread off track and cause drama.


was not my intent to cause drama, simply stating my opinion as mods are allowed to voice their opinions

Just a reminder pseudo swearing is not allowed, especially such a nasty one , I'msure the mod in this section will remove it soon. 

You got your critique above, good luck with your decision.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Thank you Import.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ImportGSD said:


> All internet shenanigans aside and commenting on only what you requested, the male has, in my opinion, the better of the two pedigrees. Neither contains the "big names" in working today but that is not a bad thing. We need these open lines to bring into the heavily saturated popular lines now and again. In terms of combining the two I would be concerned that (since this is an outcross) you take into consideration the second and third generations. While the two dogs you are considering breeding sound like they would compliment each other nicely, I would look also at their parents and grandparents. Their genetic contributions will be just as, if not moreso, indiciative of what you can expect from the breeding. If that looks good to you after you have researched it (which you very well may have already) then you will be in a good position to decide whether or not you wish to continue at that point. The bottom line is that regardless of what others think, you own the dog and the decision to breed or not breed lies with you alone. My suggestions can be taken or tossed aside, no ill will from me either way. My opinions are just that, my personal thoughts from where I sit and the picture I view from here. Your view may be much better than mine. Either way good luck in your decision making and when you do decide to trial, best of luck.


Very well stated.

My thoughts were that I didn't see any compelling reason on a paper basis that the 2 dogs would go well together or not--so you need to depend strongly on knowledge of the actual dogs--and their parents.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Thank you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My exact sentiments as Blackthorn or Import, I saw nothing compelling either positive or negative....open breeding....most important aspect is intimate knowledge of parents and grandparents....but very difficult to affix specifics to this breeding.


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