# He knows the word "kill"????



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm not sure how disturbed I should be about this, but Max has some violent reaction to the word "kill". I don't know if he thinks it means the same that we think it means, but at the very least, it means attack to him.

Max got into it with a cat that was hiding in the bushes as we walked by. Max took one (several?) on the nose, I think. He has a crusty nose right now that tends to bleed, but the cat got him somewhere, there was blood everywhere on his nose, dripped a bunch on the sidewalk, it was in his mouth, in his nostrils, on the bridge of his nose. It was kinda a mess.

Cat keeps following us, and Max is going nuts, but not barking, just trying to get away to chase. I say to Max, in a fairly normal voice, if that cat keeps following us, I should just let you kill it (no, I didn't mean it, but I was trying to get Max out of there, with blood dripping everywhere, not knowing how bad he was marked up, and that cat wouldn't leave us alone....why oh why do they always have to follow.....).

As soon as I said "kill", Max goes ballistic, barking and yanking and trying to get at the cat. I got him under control. I looked at him, and said to him, questioning, do you know what kill means? And he goes ballistic again.

He was with some private party when he was a pup that supposedly sent him off for police training. All I know when I got him, he was out of control, and that was a couple of owners later.

I'm not sure how disturbed to be by this, or whether this is just a game to him, and he would have just rushed up and barked. I've seen him do a bite and hold on someone close to the family before....


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What kind of "police" training would that be??????


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Your guess is as good as mine Ruth, I could never get any answers. Don't know if he was a "drop out" for temperament issues, or if it was his health. 

eta: I think it was somewhere in Colorado???? But that is no help!


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

Poor Max, I hope he is ok, cats can be evil at times especially strays, was it a stray or just an 'outdoor' cat? In our neighborhood there are several cats that are constantly out prowling the area, but they are all supposedly owned by people. They do love to follow us on our walks as well. I would think he learned 'kill' from the people that sent him off to the police training, than again I am not sure if that is an actual word they use when they train. Hope his little nose and muzzle are ok, cat scratches are wicked evil in my opinion they always have that distinct sting to them I think.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

With our first round of shepherds my exhusband (and the following should give a mild clue to whey he is EX) would always joke that the grocery bags were full of the "killkill" (as in he'd gone out and hunted/gathered a kill for our consumption). He would tell them it was killkill and have them search the bags for whatever treat he'd gotten them. Old Bitch is the only dog still living from those days...and if you say killkill to her she gets quite excited thinking there is a treat hiding in some bag. Words are just sounds whose meanings we assign... maybe you can reassign "kill"?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Thanks michelle, so far I can't tell what's going on with his nose, there are some bare patches that weren't there before, could be the cat scraped more than scratched, with his crusty problem. I will know better a little later. He's already on antibiotics for something else, so there shouln't be a chance of infection, though I'll put something on it a little later probably.

It was an outdoor cat. Why folks around here have outdoor cats, I will never understand, too many coyotes.....they don't last too long


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: dogsnkiddosWith our first round of shepherds my exhusband (and the following should give a mild clue to whey he is EX) would always joke that the grocery bags were full of the "killkill" (as in he'd gone out and hunted/gathered a kill for our consumption). He would tell them it was killkill and have them search the bags for whatever treat he'd gotten them. Old Bitch is the only dog still living from those days...and if you say killkill to her she gets quite excited thinking there is a treat hiding in some bag. Words are just sounds whose meanings we assign... maybe you can reassign "kill"?


Sounds like somethign my stb-ex would do!!

Things from that time period, when he was at that young age, seem very imprinted on him. I might be able to do reassociate the word, that's a good idea.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Try an experiment... 

Say the word Pill, Bill, spill, etc. and see if you get the same reaction...

Kill might have been used in the Police Training as a last resort word for an officer that is being attacked by an assailant and/or is incapacitated. 

I know my K9 friend uses a word as a last resort effort. This might be the same thing?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I taught my dog "kill it'
He takes his toy & shakes it around & growls at it.


Is that bad??

Maybe hes thinking KILL=CAT.
First letter sounds the same. ???
My dog goes nuts over ANY word that sounds like Cat, Bat etc
I play baseball with him & this morning I said to myself "wheres my bat?"
HE went absolutely NUTS! All his fur stood up & he was running around the yard on high alert.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

After reading this post I looked at Old Bitch slumbering on the floor and quietly asked about the killkill. She popped up as fast as I have seen her move in years and began to dance around and squeak. It was such a commotion I had to go in the kitchen put out a bunch of paper bags and toss some red pepper in one. That'll teach me to let sleeping dogs lie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: dogsnkiddos That'll teach me to let sleeping dogs lie












Angel, I don't think the word necessarily is bad, but in that context, with Max's background, I think there is something more to it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadTry an experiment...
> 
> Say the word Pill, Bill, spill, etc. and see if you get the same reaction...
> 
> ...


I did that in the kitchen here, no reaction to things like pill or spill (he just stared at me), but when I used the word "kill", he gave me a head tilt, and then tried to take my hand out of my pocket (also something he learned), and then sat in a perfect heel position. 

Weird.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Can you maybe ask a local officer if they use that word in training?
I thought they gave commands in German.
Is KILL a german word? Or?
Maybe thats just in my town...?
Its worth a shot to ask


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Someone mentioned to me that it might have been my stb-ex that taught him "kill", which is a possibility. He thought it was very cool that Max could potentially be a lethal weapon









At this point, it kinda doesn't matter what he thinks it means. All the training he had in the past, was all mixed up, he was never solid on it, never learned self-control, and never learned how to be truly a part of a team because of the extreme aversives used. So I guess I need to work there, and get that solid, and then I will be able to handle the rest.

I was just really disturbed by the reaction.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'd be disturbed too. It has to have been something he learned in his past home - like dogsandkiddos said, something some guy thought was funny. 

It would make me a bit nervous, what if they taught him a word like 'Margarita' instead of faas? That thought is freaking me out becuase of Luther. He was halfhiney trained in personal protection. When I adopted him, he didn't seem to know what sit or down meant. So I asked him to platz. He went right down on the floor looked up at me like Oh yeah we're working! He was trained allright, quite well but in disturbing things like bark like a loon when the doorbell went off.

One day about a month after I adopted him, we stopped at the lights 5 blocks up. I reminded him to sitz. There was an old guy standing there, he asked 'speaken zee duetch?' (lol that's phonetic, I only speak dog german)

I shrugged at him and told him the dog does. The old guy said something to my dog, no clue what but Luther went OFF! I had never and never would again see that reaction from him. I was able to back him off and walk on but it freaked me out.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I guess I am someone who thinks that spoken word HAS to be accompanied by body language/vocal cues for a dog to react.If someone was to stand there and say 'kill'the dog would not react unless voice tone/body language indicated SOMETHING.In testing is the person testing wanting or encouraging an emotional/frienzied reaction either through being nervous/excited/tense or actually wanting a KILL reaction from a dog who reads them


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI guess I am someone who thinks that spoken word HAS to be accompanied by body language/vocal cues for a dog to react.If someone was to stand there and say 'kill'the dog would not react unless voice tone/body language indicated SOMETHING.In testing is the person testing wanting or encouraging an emotional/frienzied reaction either through being nervous/excited/tense or actually wanting a KILL reaction from a dog who reads them


I said that like 1 time when my dog was a pup & he pretty much understood what "kill" ment.
I didnt tell him to growl or shake the stuffed animal around.
("killing it")
I didnt teach him that.
??? But maybe in our subconscience we give signals they pick up...?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

angel I totally agree-sometimes people can say 'KILL'and somehow actually send a message to their dog by voice or body language that encourages a primal/fear/aggressive response.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogangel I totally agree-sometimes people can say 'KILL'and somehow actually send a message to their dog by voice or body language that encourages a primal/fear/aggressive response.



Just as when we are feeling nervous or stressed, our dogs can pick that up too.
I know my boy can.
Its scary sometimes.

Maybe the man who had this dog sent an unknown (to him) message to the dog.
Saying "kill" in a gruff voice or prehaps making a face, or the "feeling" of saying the word kill.
Does that make sence???


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

anyone seen the gary larsen cartoon 'far side' where the human says something and the dog hears BLAH BLAH BLAH? Try instead of sit - just doing sss.first letter.you might be surprised.This probably won't work if your dog is not focused on you to start.
= any owner who gives command 'kill'and has an emotional/physical response to the word may get the same response from a tuned in dog.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

"I guess I am someone who thinks that spoken word HAS to be accompanied by body language/vocal cues for a dog to react.If someone was to stand there and say 'kill'the dog would not react unless voice tone/body language indicated SOMETHING"

ttalldog, I'm wondering if you feel this is always the case? I mean, with a couple of comands I give my dog, it doesnt matter what my body language is saying (at least I dont think so), there are 3 I practice with, place, sit and down. I practice using a whisper, with hands in my pockets, with my back to her, etc.....literally sit means sit, regardless if i'm up to my elbows in paint, sleeping in bed under the covers....etc. So, how am I still conveying my intent with body language here? Or did I misunderstand your statement? Or do you think I am still somehow conveying intent without realizing it.?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Sounds like he was trained to that word. It may be best to not use that word around him when you can avoid it. But if you and Max are ever approached by a thug and you have no other choice, it might make the thug run off with heavier pants...

If anyone wants to question whether the dog is paying attention to body language or truly understands the verbal command, try laying down flat and prone and THEN training. Good way to proof.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMSounds like he was trained to that word. It may be best to not use that word around him when you can avoid it. But if you and Max are ever approached by a thug and you have no other choice, it might make the thug run off with heavier pants...
> 
> If anyone wants to question whether the dog is paying attention to body language or truly understands the verbal command, try laying down flat and prone and THEN training. Good way to proof.


Oh God. Im scared what laying down might bring.....(humping? no never!)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI'd be disturbed too. It has to have been something he learned in his past home - like dogsandkiddos said, something some guy thought was funny.
> 
> It would make me a bit nervous, what if they taught him a word like 'Margarita' instead of faas? That thought is freaking me out becuase of Luther. He was halfhiney trained in personal protection. When I adopted him, he didn't seem to know what sit or down meant. So I asked him to platz. He went right down on the floor looked up at me like Oh yeah we're working! He was trained allright, quite well but in disturbing things like bark like a loon when the doorbell went off.
> 
> ...


To me this sounds most similar to Max's situation, right down to the mixed up commands, except or a few things he has down well, and stuff, even after all these years, that I don't know about.

Between him being "sent away for police training", and what other households may have taught him on top of that....I dunno. I've thought of having him evaluated for shutzhund, only to see what he might actually know, but I don't think he is physically up to it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI guess I am someone who thinks that spoken word HAS to be accompanied by body language/vocal cues for a dog to react.If someone was to stand there and say 'kill'the dog would not react unless voice tone/body language indicated SOMETHING.


I agree with you, I think dogs are smart enough to know when the situation might warrant something like that. Heck, they probably know more than we do!

With that cat, Max was already in a high alert mode, and I'm sure I wasn't super calm, and he fed off all of that. In the kitchen, he knew that word didn't warrant such a response, but sure seems like her felt like he should do _something_.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMSounds like he was trained to that word. It may be best to not use that word around him when you can avoid it. But if you and Max are ever approached by a thug and you have no other choice, it might make the thug run off with heavier pants...
> 
> If anyone wants to question whether the dog is paying attention to body language or truly understands the verbal command, try laying down flat and prone and THEN training. Good way to proof.


LOL, some day that word may come in handy, eh?

You could probably do several variations of that type of training, very interesting. Stand with your back to the dog?


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Is it possible that your frustrations and







-ness with that cat rubbed off when you said "... kill it" and he picked up on that frustration? Reason I ask is because when you said it in the kitchen, you didn't get the same reaction from him because you weren't in the same state of mind?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

No, I don't think so. He wouldn't have duplicated the response once I had him under control and asked him about the word. It was very weird.

When I first said the word "kill", he was already back under control, and we were walking away. The word made him turn and go into his frenzy. Same thing the second time.

I agree with middle, there's no way he would do that kind of response in the kitchen with no threat, he's much too smart for that.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

May have to try again on the sidewalk at a later date?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LOL, I'm not sure I want to know....I would have to be equally ticked off, and be sure that I have physical control over him!


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Hmm, just remember your ex (that will get you







off) and then eat some spinach (grow like Popeye to control him). I kid I kid...

However, this has me really perplexed and the only thing I can think of is related to his previous K9 training.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I've never heard of anyone in law enforcement giving the command "kill". But that isn't saying some little town who shares an officer with the next town over didn't self train. 

But there are people who think having their dog jump at any animal they pass by is funny. Encouraging their dog to "kill" would soon have the dog trained to do so. The word then would be a trained command. So I would not think law enforcement K-9 training but some jerk training in his backyard to impress his friends.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'd counter condition it, Lisa. Whether it was some ill informed PPD training, some guy with too much testosterone, or someone who used the term (and accompanying body language) to amp up prey drive with cats or even squeaky toys, that sort of association is concerning. 

I wouldn't want Meri to do it, much less a GSD.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Titon'sDad, I will have to get back to eating more spinach, I don't eat so much during the winters for some reason....

TJ, I too have a hard time believing it's true K9 training, but I don't know exactly what this "police training" was - it could have just been a bunch of wanna-be's. Now that you mention, I was told he was supposed to go to a small department, but it fell through somehow. And if the "jerk theory" is true, I know who the likely candidate is









Lori, you are right, it does need to be counter conditioned. I think next time he is playing with his toys here, I will use it, and see what it does. My impression is that this is not about toys at all.


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