# How to deal with non compliance....



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

What do you do if your dog doesn't follow a command given? Stella is 9 months and sometimes decides...eh...i don't want to sit, down or whatever. I can lure her with goodies but isn't she getting to an age where she doesn't need to get treats all the time???? Especially with commands she knows!? A trainer I was talking with said to grab her collar and pull her down....hard to explain what she did. Stella did NOT like that. What the trainer said made sense in theory but didn't look so good in reality...Treats are good when first learning a behavior. But once a dog knows it then treats should be eliminated and a correction should be used if they don't listen....
Any thoughts?


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

My opinion on this is that at 9 months old she's still a baby. I would still keep things positive and fun at this point. I have a 3 year old pup that I will correct if she doesn't do what she's told, but she's older. That's just my opinion though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Beau is almost 9 months and I decided to keep it motivational. I am doing some "jackpot" rewards -- not rewarding each time but variable. I might do a light correction to get his attention but after realizing that pushing him down was not a good idea when it turned into a power struggle which I was committed to win after it started. 

So I am sure at this age their will be bumps along the way but thing I can continue to build my leadership without physically having to overpower the dog, which I am not sure I will be able to do when he is an adult.

FWIW, most of my training has been with some help from a police officer and with a ball on a string. HE also said. NINE MONTHS IS A BABY. Expect two steps forward and one step back.


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## cowgirl (Sep 25, 2011)

I've had German Shepherd for many years and I always make sure my dogs obey my commands. If you are commanding them to come to you and they are not listening, put them on a long leash and pull them towards you (even if they are struggling not to come)....when they get to you, reward them with a gentle pat and/or treat. If they won't sit or lay down, make them do it with the pressure of your hands and then tell them how good they were to lay or sit down. I don't like to yell at my dogs.....but I "rarely" let them get away without obeying me....in my opinion, if you do not make them obey your commands all they time, I feel they will think to themselves that they don't always have to obey. This is just my opinion and what has worked for me for the past 30 years.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Personally I feel this is just your puppy testing you and yes you have to win every time. With all my dogs they can see it in my face when I mean business therefore they seem to listen. 

Here is a story when my 2 GSD'S were loose in the yard during a picnic of 50 people. We were getting ready to eat and I told my dogs to go lay down under the shaded oak trees. I pointed in the direction and they went right over and sat there. Many people said wow they listen so good and I said to my dogs "what did I say" and they layed down. My point is you have to make sure you hold them to every command or they will get away with what they can. I could have been fine with my dogs sitting under the shade trees but I told them to lay down and they knew it.

My phrase is what did I say then my dogs know I mean business. 
Sorry for the story but I thought it fit . 

Holding them accountable is your job and if you get lazy and say thats good enough they are not going to take you seriously.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree that holding a dog accountable is important but since I work a detection dog (cadaver) I do not know a single soul who trains that behavior chain then reinforces with physical correction. If the dog is not working, he is simply put up and they actually seem to understand that and failure to work is rare indeed as they love the work so much. The dog should be loving obedience so much.

By the same token they are always (on an intermittent cycle) rewarded for finding and indicating the location of known hides. Even 9, 10 year old dogs. Reliability is very important as these dogs can wind up in court and you need to have records documenting accuracy and a low percent of false indications.

I just do not agree with physically getting into a power struggle with the dog. I agree with a correction but I see it more as a reminder to the dog to get on task.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

What most of us do incorrectly when training with treats is we go from treats 100% of the time (and pups are perfect) to stopping treats entirely (now pup won't listen).

When we are forgetting the in-between stage of random/intermittant treat reinforcment which is why the treat training works (when we do it right :wild: )

Schedules of Reinforcements

Clicker Training: Communicating with Your Dog, Positively and Effectively.

Front & Finish #8


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> What most of us do incorrectly when training with treats is we go from treats 100% of the time (and pups are perfect) to stopping treats entirely (now pup won't listen).
> 
> When we are forgetting the in-between stage of random/intermittant treat reinforcment which is why the treat training works (when we do it right :wild: )
> 
> ...


Not only do I vary how often I treat (more often I do than not), but I also vary the treats between teally good ones and rather meh ones. And once they are performing pretty reliably, I will often substitute just praise, or playtime, or other rewards. And I like to use 'real life' rewards - like having the dogs Sit and Wait at the door until I release them to go outside, with the actual getting to go out as the reward. 

To help a friend I wrote this up so they would have a sort of schedule to follow, she was not very knowledgeable about training at all, and needed something specific to follow. 

Click and treat EVERY time for at least 300 times in a row. Does not need to be all in one day, but over several days to a week or more. Then, next training session, follow this schedule:
Click and treat 11 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat 3 times. Jackpot. Click without treat once. Click and treat 5 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat 6 times. Click without treat twice. Click and treat 7 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat twice. End session for day.

Next session. Click and treat 6 times. Click without treat twice. Click and treat 4 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat 8 times. Click without treat three times. Jackpot. Click and treat 6 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat 9 times. End session. 

Next session. Click and treat 3 times. Click without treat once. Click and treat 7 times. Click without treat twice. Click and treat 3 times. Click without treat 3 times. Click and treat 6 times. Click without treat twice. Click and treat 9 times. Click without treat once. Jackpot. Click and treat once. End session.

After that, I recommend treating approximately 4 out of 5 times, randomly. It seems like it worked well as her dog does follow commands well about 99% of the time - even under distractions usually. 

I also recommended she have treats 'hidden' randomly around the house, and keep her clicker on her at all times, and just out of the blue request a behavior, click, and surprise with a treat, then move on as if it were no big deal. 

I dunno if this will help, but it gets things moving towards the dog not needing a treat each and every time.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice. I didn't really feel comfortable pulling or pushing on her collar and body. It didn't work anyway....she just started jumping around and getting totally nuts. The trainer's feeling was that she is performing for the treat and should be performing for me. Hmmmmm. My personal instinct is to use treats on and off for things she knows and when not using treats I like to give her a nice belly or neck rub. And sometimes it is just a "yes, good girl". So if I do give a correction if she totally blows me off, what would it be??? I don't think I should keep repeating the command over and over....


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

If I have an adolescent dog who is suddenly deciding that they will not do a known command, I usually start over. I carry treats around in a pack on my waist and train the heck out of that command with treats for a week. Dog is on a leash pretty much all the time, and I will do a quick collar correction (just a little sideways tug on the leash to get their attention). I will repeat the command once more and if the dog blows me off, I put it in its crate away from the family. I will then try the command again after a few minutes in timeout. Works for the majority of the dogs I've trained.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi katdog

When we first had Jake he knew how to sit indoors, but outdoors he just couldn't get it. So I taught him with the treat above his head and taking it backwards - fine. But occassionly he ignored me. I just stuck it out, didn't say anything and just refused to go anywhere until he sat. No problems now. 

I think persistance is the key. Just wait it out -tell her once, if she doesn't do it - wait until she does. Takes patience but it works. Assuming she knows and understands the command of course. 

Strange, but just like Jake she may understand 'sit' in the kitchen - but not in the lounge. In which case go back to the basics with the treats. Practice in various places - indoors and out. 

Sue


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't usually have a problem in the house. And saturating her with the command she already knows is what I have been doing basically.....we did sit everywhere for everything. Now she is about 99% ok with that. We are working on down now. What can you suggest for when we are out and about and I have said the command once, given the hand signal, said it again, signal again, give the leash a pop and she is just looking all around as if she figures "if I don't look at you, you don't see me and I don't have to listen?". Reminds me of my 3 yr old grandson.....if you are telling him something he doesn't like he says "Don't ask me" and looks away.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi katdog
> 
> When we first had Jake he knew how to sit indoors, but outdoors he just couldn't get it. So I taught him with the treat above his head and taking it backwards - fine. But occassionly he ignored me. I just stuck it out, didn't say anything and just refused to go anywhere until he sat. No problems now.
> 
> ...


LOL. I have done the wait it out with Stella. We have sat at more crosswalks with cars stopping to let us cross and then getting annoyed with us as we just stand there.... Will have to stop practicing at the crosswalks!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> LOL. I have done the wait it out with Stella. We have sat at more crosswalks with cars stopping to let us cross and then getting annoyed with us as we just stand there.... Will have to stop practicing at the crosswalks!


 
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Somewhere quieter me thinks !


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes dogs are not gifted in the generalization department which is the thing we humans do to a fault (so much that sometimes our constructs don't allow us to see the real world)


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes we humans sure do know how to generalize. Hard to remember sometimes that dogs need to learn all over the place. Well, at least it will keep me on the move


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

katdog5911 said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I didn't really feel comfortable pulling or pushing on her collar and body. It didn't work anyway....she just started jumping around and getting totally nuts. The trainer's feeling was that she is performing for the treat and should be performing for me. Hmmmmm. My personal instinct is to use treats on and off for things she knows and when not using treats I like to give her a nice belly or neck rub. And sometimes it is just a "yes, good girl". So if I do give a correction if she totally blows me off, what would it be??? I don't think I should keep repeating the command over and over....


Do you ever play tug with her? I would get a good two handled tug or a [http://www.hallmarkk9.com/Balls_on_Rope.aspx]medium ball on a string[/url] and get her engaged with you before you begin training. Play, have some fun! 
Then ask for commands and reward her with the ball/tug. It will also make the positions faster when she knows the reward will come fast.
Food rewards tend to flatten a dog out when training and you want to keep her _up_.

After she is a bit more proofed on the commands, _then_ corrections will be appropriate. 
Did she sit? Wait 3 seconds then correct with a collar pop, don't verbally repeat the command, just correct her.
Mark the position with reward(that can be food).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will say that when we switched Beau to a toy reward his motivation went out the roof. Incredible improvement. But some of that depends on the dog.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I will say that when we switched Beau to a toy reward his motivation went out the roof. Incredible improvement. But some of that depends on the dog.


It very much depends on the dog. Our Krissie is FOOD MOTIVATED, and not so interested in toys. So if we want her to learn something new, just having a really good treat will get her in the mood to learn RIGHT NOW. Koshka looooves the flirt pole, and loves the ball, so I bet we'll be using those to work on things as much as treats. Of course Koshka is so eager to please in general that just telling him he is good and petting him works in a pinch.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I have a stubborn husky. I let him be as I have too soft of a heart and write it off as a characteristic of the breed (which it is). Sorry I cannot advise but I hope you find your way!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

What do you CURRENTLY do when you give a command and the dog doesn't perform? 

Here's what I see over and over in training: Owner says "Down", dog doesn't move. Owner repeats "Down!" while pointing at the floor, and sometimes snapping fingers. Dog doesn't move. Owner sighs, gives exasperated shrug of shoulders, and reaches into pocket or bait bag for a cookie. Dog hits the deck. Dog has owner VERY well trained!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> What do you CURRENTLY do when you give a command and the dog doesn't perform?
> 
> Here's what I see over and over in training: Owner says "Down", dog doesn't move. Owner repeats "Down!" while pointing at the floor, and sometimes snapping fingers. Dog doesn't move. Owner sighs, gives exasperated shrug of shoulders, and reaches into pocket or bait bag for a cookie. Dog hits the deck. Dog has owner VERY well trained!



Thats funny because I've seen this a million times too I personally don't ever repeat the command and I wait it out until they do it...sometimes this can be a long wait and the down is the worse because all the blood rushes to your head because your bent over your pointing/tapping the ground and the dog is pawing you...its hard to do without laughing, but eventually they go down


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

something I do as well, is, when the dog just 'sit's, or 'downs', for no reason, like in the house..it's GOOD SIT/reward,,GOOD DOWN reward.

I haven't asked for the behavior but the dog has just done it on it's own (freeshaping) and is rewarded for it.

They can look at you, like DUH I did a down, and she's rewarding me??? WOW..

I don't expect perfection from a 9mth old, they can still have the attention span of gnat at times. Still in the learning/adolescent process, and can be a tad stubborn

So with that I do alot of my proofing at home, getting solid basic obedience, and then out in public start throwing out the behaviors that will not set them up to fail..like "sit".

Masi is the first dog I've had who's more toy/praise motivated than food, give her a frisbee/tug over a steak anyday I've found her sooooooo much easier /faster responses/really motivated to 'do' things when a tug or even a GOOOD GIRL is her reward.

just some ideas


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I have this "problem" with my dog. 90% of the time she is fine but if she is really full of beans and playful she will disobey me and try and engage me in play. What happens is that when I put her in a long down and walk away (30 ft) she will wait until my back is turned and get up and walk around sniffing stuff. When this happens (this is what I was doing) I would walk back to the spot (silently) point at the ground and ignore her. She tries to get me to chase her by play bowing and her "play with me" bark but I ignore her. She would eventually come back and lie back in her spot and not budge the second time. I thought this was a good tactic for dealing with this but she still does it occasionally, so I don't think it is effective (it has helped to some point). This is a little frustrating for me because we are doing BH trial in a few weeks and I can just see her doing this during her long down. Generally if I let her run around and go nuts for a little bit before hand she is less likely to do it, but still not 100%.
What I have started doing now is that if she does this, I will load her up into the truck immediately and leave for a walk by myself for about 10-20 minutes, while she is alone in the truck. I've had to do this twice in the past few days. The first time, a few days ago, (I put her in a long down at the entrance to the dog park and she has to ignore all dogs and stay while I disappear out of site for about 3 minutes). (I know she can do this as we have done it often before) She broke the down after a few seconds, after which I put her in the truck and went for a walk. After I returned I attempted the long down again and this time she was perfect, A small dog came over to her and attempted to engage her, hopping and barking at her and she didn't budge. I disappeared for 3 minutes and she was happily waiting for me in the down position when I returned.
This morning it happened again. We had just done a bit of play with another dog, then some tracking and were about to dry run the BH. My buddy was up first so I put Maggie in a long down and she broke it as soon as my back was turned. Again with the "I wanna play" routine. This time I put her in the truck, went back and watched my buddy do his routine, out of view, we chatted for a bit and I drove home and she is now in her cage for a few hours.

I realize she's only young 18 months and she is very playful and full of energy, so I don't want to be too hard on her, but I do want to enforce play/work time (and she gets plenty of play time). We did 2 miles hike in the dog park last night where she went nuts playing with all the dogs, running/swimming, followed by a 4.22 mile bike ride (30 mins), as prep for AD trial. When we got home after I fed her, she was running circles in the back yard!. 

I've started playing tug with her recently as a lead in to bite work and to wean off treats so I'm wondering if that is making her a bit more "play/rebellious".

Any thoughts on how to handle this, I think the banishing to the truck is a good idea, I've only had 2 chances to try it out so I can't tell how effective it is yet.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> What do you CURRENTLY do when you give a command and the dog doesn't perform?
> 
> Here's what I see over and over in training: Owner says "Down", dog doesn't move. Owner repeats "Down!" while pointing at the floor, and sometimes snapping fingers. Dog doesn't move. Owner sighs, gives exasperated shrug of shoulders, and reaches into pocket or bait bag for a cookie. Dog hits the deck. Dog has owner VERY well trained!


yes i was guilty of this very thing. but i am learning and not doing this anymore. I have been "saturating" Stella with whatever command needs a better response. I start in the house and basically give the command A LOT throughout the day. I treat treat treat. Then we move it outside and add more distractions. We did that with "sit" 2 weeks ago and now she obeys that one 99% of the time first time asked. Now I am working on "platz". She is getting much better with that as well. Oddly enough, her "wait" and "stay" have not been much of a problem. I guess my next project is "come" and to have less of a reaction to other dogs.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

PROGRESS!!!! Stella is pretty much sitting and "platzing" on command. Even out and about. Today she did it with a dog in the field, way on the other side, but this was amazing for her.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

do some reinforcement training.


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