# Another Question



## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Before you started breeding your breed of choice, did you do a trial breeding with a different breed?

I'm sure that came out wrong. But I know want to breed Kelpies but I'm thinking of doing a couple breedings with a different breed. I love the JRT and am thinking of starting with them since they are a smaller breed and I'd be able to start breeding sooner. I could get my feet wet and then when I'm able, switch to the Kelpie.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still doing the health research with the JRT and I'll do the titling and such. 

And I'm rambling.. Sorry..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No. My breed is the GSD so I have put all of my energy, time, work, etc into that breed. I did title a Dobie years ago and have bred horses, cattle, rabbits and sheep so had "breeding" experience in other species. 

If your breed of choice is te Kelpie than, IMO, you should be putting all of your effort into that breed. Get out there and learn about them, train them, title them, handle a number of dogs and then down the road start breeding. What the world needs is more extremely educated breeders not just more breeders.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Switching brands is understandable in cars - in candy - in Bar b que sauce! But breeders who are committed are those who love and respect a breed and breed for the love of that breed....not for something to do or for income or for no other reason than that they have an intact female .... If you love a particular breed, and want to breed, then I agree with Lisa, spend several years learning and understanding the bloodlines, the temperament etc before having a litter. Doing JRTs "first" and "switching" does not communicate a serious commitment to Kelpies..

JMHO

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah rather than switching, I'd say get a mentor in the breed you want and help with a few births, or co-own a bitch.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

My mentor for the kelpie lives in Ontario so that's not possible. But if I started with the JRT, I'd have more help. I'm in love with the JRT and am still learning about them.
But I understand where ya'll are coming from thou. That's why I ask.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quoteoing JRTs "first" and "switching" does not communicate a serious commitment to Kelpies..


Nor does it show much devotion to JRTs.

IMO, breeders should have a 'vision' of what they want to accomplish with their breed(s). A desire to simply produce 'nice dogs' lacks the requisite fire & passion.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would look at it from a buyer's perspective: what would YOU be looking for in a breeder?

Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm pretty critical. I won't buy from anyone who can spend thousands on top dogs and breed them because I don't care about that. I won't buy from people that I don't think are actually involved in their breed. My dogs are my pets, I work full time and have other freelance jobs on the side and yet if I'm making the time to be in shows and trials every other weekend and training at various clubs in the area but never see certain breeders at these events, regardless of how nice of breeding dogs they purchased, I look somewhere else. So to me the quality of a breeder is not just the quality of the dog but what efforts have been made for that dog to reach full potential. Also, I cannot trust a breeder really knows how to pair dogs based on temperament and drive if they've never trained or worked the dogs themselves.

So for myself, I look at the breeder as carefully as I look at the dogs, otherwise I can get a dog from a rescue for a lot cheaper.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I plan on working my dogs in both conformation and sports. I want to see the breed doing what it's bred to do. I wouldn't breed two dogs together just based on temperament or drive. I would need to see proof that the dogs have been trained and worked to the best ability to prove the dog's worth.
My thinking on "switching" (which is really the wrong term) was space issues. I don't to want breed large dogs in a small space. I won't be breeding at all for a few years as I'm still looking for THE dog for me at the moment. 
I'd like to work my Kelpies on sheep in my own place as well as in sports and conformation but I can't own sheep in the town limits.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Just my .02, not as a breeder but as a buyer.

If I was looking at a breeder and discovered that before they bred my breed of choice they bred another just for the experience I would walk away and find another breeder.

I believe that breeders should breed because they love the breed and want to see it preserved - not because they want to get experience.

Find a mentor near you. If you really want whelping experience and can't find a Kelpie mentor near you, find a mentor that has a different breed.

Please don't breed dogs just for the experience


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Adding to what Barb and Lies said, a big part of it for me is that there is no connection between Kelpies and JRTs. 

If someone were raising a smaller breed of terrier (due to space issues) then moved on to raise airedales, I could kind of understand that. It shows a commitment to a certain type of dog (in this case, the terrier). Terriers tend to have similar health and behavior issues, so you would be building upon your knowledge over the years. Someone who raised cockers and springers, that makes sense to me. Certain breeds of herding dogs, sure. 

It says "I'm a committed terrier person. I love terriers and I commit to these two breeds." It's not ideal, but I have met people who have bred two kinds of dogs over their careers, and it made sense.

But kelpies and JRTs doesn't work for me. I'm a beagle person as well as a GSD person,. but I realize there's no connection between the two (and I'm not looking to breed them). What I learn from my GSD isn't transferable to my beagles for the most part and visa versa. I don't become more of an expert in GSDs by having more beagles (except in the areas where beagles and GSDs have overlapping health genetic predispositions). Certainly, I don't gain much more insight on either behaviorally because they're very different animals.

Kelpies and JRTs go together like Peanut Butter and steak. They may both be great on their own, but for most knowledgeable people, the combination makes you think, "huh?" 

So your scenario doesn't work for me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Oranges81I plan on working my dogs in both conformation and sports. I want to see the breed doing what it's bred to do. I wouldn't breed two dogs together just based on temperament or drive. I would need to see proof that the dogs have been trained and worked to the best ability to prove the dog's worth.
> My thinking on "switching" (which is really the wrong term) was space issues. I don't to want breed large dogs in a small space. I won't be breeding at all for a few years as I'm still looking for THE dog for me at the moment.
> I'd like to work my Kelpies on sheep in my own place as well as in sports and conformation but I can't own sheep in the town limits.


I'd wait then and do a lot of work with a mentor in the mean time.

I don't think it's wrong to have more than one breed (I originally got a GSD because I want to work Mals someday, and DH wants me to get a working pit bull), but not so much for breeding, at least not two totally different breeds that do different work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oranges, nothing wrong to get some breeding experience by helping out someone who is breeding other breeds. But I have to agree with the others that your plan does not make you sound like a serious breeder - I am sure that is your goal, but somehow, it just comes off as someone who is dabbling in breeding, and seems to miss the point and focus of a serious breeder. 

This is not to criticize, I am sure that your intentions are serious, and your plans and actions will be adhered to a high level of ethics, BUT, you sound like you want to breed dogs, so you can call yourself a breeder, rather than breeding dogs as life goal to contribute to the future of the Australian Kelpie breed.

In my eyes and mind, a breeder is someone that has a lifetime of experience with the breed, owning, training, showing, and being involved in many different aspects of the breed's use, history, health issues, etc. They breed because in their eyes, no other breed of dog can live up to their ideal of what a dog should be (whatever breed they choose to devote their life to), and they breed in order to preserve and improve their ideal of the breed. 

To me, a breeder is not someone who chooses to breed dogs because of size convenience, or availability, or because not many people breed these dogs, so there is less competition in the marketplace, or with less breeders out there, it will be easier for one to establish oneself as a breeder of a certain breed. 

NOT saying that is what you are doing, nor am I saying that is what your motivations are, but a few things about your posts and your plans does give that impression. I know that is not your aim, and that is why you are here asking for input, and that alone indicates that you are dedicated about going about this seriously and correctly. 

So as a dog person, I would give a breeder extra credit if she starts out learning and gaining experience by working WITH people who breed, even if they have different breeds than the breed you are interested in. And if you have JRT and want to breed them, fine, that is your perjorative, and maybe a good way to gain hands-on experience, but I wouldn't call that a breeder's foundation, nor would I use that as credentials for having breeding experience when you do move on to Kelpies. 

Basically that comes across as breeding for convenience, and I don't think we need any more breeders of convenience in this world. 

I hope this does not come across as too critical. I support and respect your efforts to educate yourself, and your desire to learn, so I hope this will give you some insight for the direction you may want to go.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I appreciate the advice and suggestions I've gotten. That's why I asked.








I think I'm gonna meet the JRT breeder that's here (My trainer is gonna introduce us) and go from there. I may just help out with them and get experience in the show ring with my dogs instead of breeding them.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with the others that to be a good breeder you need to pour everything into the breed, and it would be fair to neither breed to use one just for "experience".

When it comes to learning about the technicalities and science of breeding and whelping, that can be learned with any breed. Find a breeder nearby that you can mentor under, serve as a whelp helper, and such.

But when it comes to learning about the dogs themselves, their temperaments, health issues, standard, bloodlines, history, purpose.. as well as working with them and training and titling them... put the time and energy into your chosen breed. Don't try to split that valuable time and energy between two breeds, or pull it away from your chosen breed to waste on a breed you care about less.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have been a whelper helper for a friend of mine that Breeds Weims. I would suggest to anyone who think they want to bred to start there. First litter was an frozen semen implant I missed that but got to go for the ultra sound to check for number of pups. Whelping night was interesting. Breeder took care of the pup and I took care of the dam and recording all the data. It was great since I was there for the birth I also go to visit and help with early socialization and stimulus. Plus see if the pup(s) I thought would be my pick were still my pick at 8 weeks old.

Second litter was an emergency C-section but I still got to help with early socialization and puppy stimulus stuff.

I know that if I ever decide to breed and need a hand whelping my friend is only a phone call away.

Val


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