# E Collar - enlighten me



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am thinking about getting an e collar. 
I do not like them because it is too easy to abuse them. However I have come to realize after seeing them in multiple responsible hands that it might be in my best interest to get one either to proof off over distance or to correct her in the right moment at the right time. 

Those who use it in ipo obedience.... what is your opinion? 

I will windowshop for one since I have to save up money for one anyways.

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I trained Karlo to one last summer(took us a couple of months to do the foundation and then proof). I worked with my private obedience trainer with it(she does water/field retriever training and competitive obedience)
It was suggested to go with one from my IPO TD because I wasn't being clear with my corrections and an ecollar would take out any conflict of misunderstanding.
So far, I haven't used it during IPO training. Because training w/ the ecollar made me a better handler and 'proofed' my timing, it carried over to everything we do. 
My dog became more compliant while he was trained on the collar, thus his respect and biddability came up more.

I have a Dogtra 2300ncp and it is reliable, easy to work (charges in 2 hours), that said, I probably will not use it with this particular dog...it hasn't been necessary.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

As a lady who trains hunting dogs told me, "used properly the e-collar is a great tool" . I don't have experience with using it for IPO. I did use it to train my Sting not to run deer -and it was effective. Lou Castle is the e-collar expert here.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

We used an e collar to train one of our stubborn dogs. The shock is adjustable so you don't have to hurt them. We tested it on us first. The e collar we have beeps before it shocks. He only had to be shocked twice. Both times he just slightly shook his head. Now if he hears the beep he knows to correct himself. 

There are 3 buttons. One is suppose to be if he is doping stuff right. Using that just confused him. The other one beeps and if held down will shock. The third only beeps. We only have to use that button now. 

I was totally against training with an e collar, but it did not hurt him and it was very effective.


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## TAResley (Apr 18, 2013)

I use an e-collar because our dog is really ignorant to other forms of correction... an example of this is lead pulling. I could bump him, pull him, turn him in 100000 circles....nothing. He is now amazing on and off the collar and never pulls on the lead. The ecollar used correctly is heaven sent. It also helps with any dominance issues when they are young. Apollo would try to shoulder dogs because he was young, dumb, and filld with hormones. The ecollar on a low setting told him NO without the other dog needing to bite his face off. 

And yes, we shocked ourselves before we began using it on our dog along with all of his office buddies that found it funny. Well... my husband did. I've already been shocked by the horse lines so I have a fear of being shocked. I rarely resort to using the shock unless I MUST and it is on a low setting.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I am thinking about getting an e collar.
> I do not like them because it is too easy to abuse them. However I have come to realize after seeing them in multiple responsible hands that it might be in my best interest to get one either to proof off over distance or to correct her in the right moment at the right time.


If someone thinks that they might abuse their dog with an Ecollar, they should not own a dog. Abuse is not inherent in any inanimate object. It's in the person who uses that object to abuse the dog. A statement that a given tool is _"too easy to abuse"_ makes no sense. 



Mrs.K said:


> Those who use it in ipo obedience.... what is your opinion?


I doubt that you'll find a top finisher in any IPO national championship who has NOT used the Ecollar. It has far more application than just in the OB there. 



Mary Beth said:


> As a lady who trains hunting dogs told me, "used properly the e-collar is a great tool" . I don't have experience with using it for IPO. I did use it to train my Sting not to run deer -and it was effective. Lou Castle is the e-collar expert here.


Thanks for the kind words Mary Beth. I've never like the appellation _"expert."_ I just know a few things.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

LouCastle said:


> If someone thinks that they might abuse their dog with an Ecollar, they should not own a dog. Abuse is not inherent in any inanimate object. It's in the person who uses that object to abuse the dog. A statement that a given tool is _"too easy to abuse"_


Well said. An object does not abuse. A handler does. Through ignorance or anger. Educate yourself, set your goals, work with an experienced person and abuse will not be an issue. 



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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

After having personally worked with Lou one on one to learn how to train with an e collar, I would highly recommend looking into his method. It makes sense, to myself and the dogs. There is no "I shocked the dog twice and now he knows better!" It's not used that way. The level that these dogs are working at on the e collar is so low, the average person would not know the dog is feeling anything at all. In fact, you take some time finding the dogs individual level very slowly before moving forward into any of the training. There are 127 levels on the dogtra, so far I have yet to find a dog that was working (without major distractions) at a level above a 15. When I tried it on several friends, most didn't start feeling it until 12-20. Talk to lou, he's great at answering emails. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> If someone thinks that they might abuse their dog with an Ecollar, they should not own a dog. Abuse is not inherent in any inanimate object. It's in the person who uses that object to abuse the dog. A statement that a given tool is _"too easy to abuse"_ makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would never abuse an e-collar, I just don't like e-collars because I've seen them being abused more often than not. Especially in the 1980's.

I realize it's not the same times anymore, but it is something that has taken a long time for me to even consider the e-collar at all. 

You have to give people time to become accustomed with an idea, especially since I voiced my feelings about the e-collar before. I grew up in a time where people used car batteries to shock the crap out of dogs and it was absolutely normal to do so because people just didn't know any better. So yeah, that has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I absolutely resent them. Not speaking of e-collars being illegal where I'm from and that too plays a major role. To me they are not something good. It took me four years to finally put a prong on my dog and it'll take a while until I can put an e-collar on a dog and not feel like I'm an abusive monster. We are conditioned to believe that e-collars are an abusive tool. 
That has nothing to do with me not being fit to own a dog, so I appreciate if you would just give me the time to see it for what it is, just a tool.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I am interested in this also. We actually have used the E-collar for some problem solving when Cullen was younger, and it made amazing differences. I am actually looking into what the best one is to get for a somewhat stubborn, high drive dog that has a really thick coat. 

We tried the Element ( sitting in front of me) and just not pleased with it. I was trained to use it properly, and the dog was trained with it also. I have heard that PetSafe had a good one  haha, but I don't know about that.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The e-collar is especially useful for me when dealing with multiple off leash dogs. 

Lou's site it great, the methods he outlines are used by most top trainers. 

But it isn't a quick fix. I'm always curious when people say "I shocked the dog maybe two times and now everything is perfect." Really? It's not that simple and takes time to teach the dog what it going on and teach yourself how to use it. Unless you are doing aversion training which is very different. As with most dog training, it takes time and repeated proofing with increased levels of distraction to train with the collar. 

It's not a "quick fix" but it is a great tool.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I would never abuse an e-collar, I just don't like e-collars because I've seen them being abused more often than not. Especially in the 1980's.


I’m sorry but this makes no sense to me. Why would you, after seeing dogs abused with an Ecollar, come to _"[dis]like Ecollars?"_ Don't you think that you should come to "dislike the person who was using the Ecollar? This sounds like a completely emotional response to me. 



Mrs.K said:


> I realize it's not the same times anymore, but it is something that has taken a long time for me to even consider the e-collar at all.


Given that you realize that _"it's not the same times anymore"_ why would you still hold this emotion? 



Mrs.K said:


> You have to give people time to become accustomed with an idea, especially since I voiced my feelings about the e-collar before.


Again, I don't understand. You realize intellectually that the abuse had nothing to do with the Ecollar. You realize intellectually that times (and the tool) has changed. Why would anyone cling to an old emotional response that they now realize is both wrong and outdated? Why does it take time to _"become accustomed [to] an idea"_ that you now realize is wrong? 



Mrs.K said:


> I grew up in a time where people used car batteries to shock the crap out of dogs and it was absolutely normal to do so because people just didn't know any better.


I grew up during the same time and I darn well knew it was wrong!  It's never been _"normal"_ in my book. 



Mrs.K said:


> So yeah, that has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I absolutely resent them.


But I doubt that you hold this same _"dislike"_ for car batteries. It seems to me that your _"resent[ment]"_ should have been directed at the people doing this, not some inanimate object. 



Mrs.K said:


> Not speaking of e-collars being illegal where I'm from and that too plays a major role. To me they are not something good. It took me four years to finally put a prong on my dog and it'll take a while until I can put an e-collar on a dog and not feel like I'm an abusive monster.


Either you're an abusive monster or you're not. It has nothing to do with the tools that you choose to use to train a dog. 



Mrs.K said:


> We are conditioned to believe that e-collars are an abusive tool.


I'd suggest that you rise above it. You're an intelligent, reasonable human being. Don't let others control how you think or what you do. 



Mrs.K said:


> That has nothing to do with me not being fit to own a dog, so I appreciate if you would just give me the time to see it for what it is, just a tool.


I’m sorry but there are dogs that need to be trained that don't have the time for you to drag your feet. (I'm not specifically talking to you, it makes no difference to me if YOU ever use an Ecollar). Again, I don't understand this kind of thinking. For me ... as soon as I realize that I'm wrong about something, I change what I do ASAP. Why do you need time to do it?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

VaBeachFamily said:


> I am interested in this also. We actually have used the E-collar for some problem solving when Cullen was younger, and it made amazing differences. I am actually looking into what the best one is to get for a somewhat stubborn, high drive dog that has a really thick coat.
> 
> We tried the Element ( sitting in front of me) and just not pleased with it. I was trained to use it properly, and the dog was trained with it also. I have heard that PetSafe had a good one  haha, but I don't know about that.


What don't you like about the Element? With the proper length contact points it will do everything that you need. I prefer the units that have the LCD readout of the stim level but the Element has everything you need. Stay away from anything from the "big box" pet stores. They're junk. 

For my methods only the Dogtra and the Einsteins will give satisfactory results. Other brands are a compromise. If you use other methods then you can use those two brands and add in Tri-Tronics and Unleashed Technology. I'd not recommend any other brands. If your dog has very thick fur, make sure that you get the longer contact points.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And like you said, I can make up my own mind and do not like to be pressured one way or another. Your post does put pressure on people because you sound like "either train your dog with an e collar or you have no business owning a dog."

My dogs are just fine without an e collar and since I have decided to stick with sar I probably will not have a need for it. So thank you. You, once more, have showed me why I just do not like it. You may be the best but an e collar is not the all mighty thing. There are other tools out there which sadly you do not seem to recognize what so ever.

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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> And like you said, I can make up my own mind and do not like to be pressured one way or another. Your post does put pressure on people because you sound like "either train your dog with an e collar or you have no business owning a dog."
> 
> My dogs are just fine without an e collar and since I have decided to stick with sar I probably will not have a need for it. So thank you. You, once more, have showed me why I just do not like it. You may be the best but an e collar is not the all mighty thing. There are other tools out there which sadly you do not seem to recognize what so ever.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've never gotten that from his posts.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

_ (*** Removed by ADMIN ***) _


I've written hundreds, perhaps thousands of times (MANY of them on this forum) That no one needs an Ecollar. What you've stated is YOUR interpretation of my posts. You're wrong about this, and Capone22, who has trained with me, said that she disagrees with your assessment of this. I use plenty of the so−called "kinder gentler methods with the dogs that I train. But I know when they're appropriate, when they're not, and when there's a better way to communicate with the dogs, with the Ecollar. You don't. Because of your history, and the fact that you allow emotions, rather than logic and reason to make these sorts of decisions for you, you probably never will. I've seen murders that have been committed with hammers. But I'm not afraid of, nor do I avoid their use. Similarly you have seen a very useful tool abused but instead of placing the responsibility for this abuse on the person doing the abuse, you've transferred it to the tool. That is neither logical nor reasonable, yet you allow it to control how you think, and how you act. Doesn't seem like the best way to go through life to me, but maybe that's just me. 



Mrs.K said:


> My dogs are just fine without an e collar and since I have decided to stick with sar I probably will not have a need for it. So thank you.


Much of my work is with SAR dogs and much of that work occurs with people who thought, at one time, that they _"probably [would] not have a need for it."_ Many of them develop a problem that brings them around. Then, when they see well the tool provides communication, and how fast and easy the results come, they say that they'll never train another dog without one. 

_ (*** Removed by ADMIN ***) _




Mrs.K said:


> You may be the best


I doubt it. 



Mrs.K said:


> but an e collar is not the all mighty thing.


Yes, I know. And I say so with great frequency. 

_ (*** Removed by ADMIN ***) _


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The biggest positive about an e-collar is that the dog does NOT have to be abused to be trained. There is no spinal or nerve damage physically to the dog like having a few big men manhandling him with a prong and double lines. I will never let anyone touch my dogs that way again.

My 12 year old has had some issues since he was young that indicate some damage was done to him....he was a dog who had fight drive out the wazoo and would not out. He started out as a rock star and several well known trainers and judges expressing great admiration for his drive and work. Many mistakes were made with his foundation. I was in tears and was told the dog had to wash out of the sport due to the no-out. He would never title. I started over somewhere else with an e-collar and V'd in Protection. Perhaps the collar was not used as well as as it could have been....but he learned to out and to out almost too fast at first - I wish I had known better how to use it and could have gotten him to do dumbbells correctly as we always lost points in OB for fighting with the dumbbell...again incorrect foundation.

The e-collar is a great tool. But the user makes or breaks it....

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> The biggest positive about an e-collar is that the dog does NOT have to be abused to be trained. There is no spinal or nerve damage physically to the dog like having a few big men manhandling him with a prong and double lines. I will never let anyone touch my dogs that way again.
> 
> My 12 year old has had some issues since he was young that indicate some damage was done to him....he was a dog who had fight drive out the wazoo and would not out. He started out as a rock star and several well known trainers and judges expressing great admiration for his drive and work. Many mistakes were made with his foundation. I was in tears and was told the dog had to wash out of the sport due to the no-out. He would never title. I started over somewhere else with an e-collar and V'd in Protection. Perhaps the collar was not used as well as as it could have been....but he learned to out and to out almost too fast at first - I wish I had known better how to use it and could have gotten him to do dumbbells correctly as we always lost points in OB for fighting with the dumbbell...again incorrect foundation.
> 
> ...


Sounds familiar. I had the same issue with Nala, with the outing. Lots of fight drive and she is a rock star too. Anywhere and Everywhere we go, everyone is in love with her and in the beginning it was impossible to get her to out. We took some classes with DZ and he got her to out within one session and showed me how to do it. She also put the E-collar on her (it was the only time an e-collar was on one of my dogs) and she used it on a very low stimulation. It worked like a charm. 
She outs perfectly on a sleeve but with a ball or tug (she can easily go into fight drive with the ball or tug), however I know how to handle it and how to get her to out without having to bribe her but I wouldn't necessarily call it solid because for others (pet people) she will not give it up.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Your post does put pressure on people because you sound like "either train your dog with an e collar or you have no business owning a dog."


I don't think that's what he meant. I think there is a breakdown of communication between you two.

The way I read Lou's comment was this: "If you fear that you will abuse your dog in any way, you should not own a dog." From his perspective, it is not the tool that causes abuse, it is the person using it. So when you say you are afraid of abusing your dog with an e-collar, Lou simply hears that you are afraid you might abuse your dog with ANY collar, method or tool... and if you are afraid you are capable of abuse, you shouldn't own a dog.

And I understand that's not what YOU were saying. You are simply saying (I think) that because you are inexperienced with the e-collar, you are afraid you might make a mistake and hurt your dog with it.

All it takes is getting to know and understand the tool and its proper use, and you'll be fine. Don't let bad memories and emotions creep in, or you probably WILL make mistakes with it. Now, I'm saying all this as a person who has NOT used an e-collar, so I can't offer any expertise in that area, but I certainly would use one if I needed to. I think it is a very effective tool when used properly and can, indeed, save a dog's life in certain cases. I wouldn't be afraid to use it just because someone ELSE used it improperly or abusively, that would be a logical fallacy. 

Having said that, I do understand the emotional part of it... when you've seen something used in an abusive manner, you tend to make a bad association with it and it becomes a symbol of abuse. For instance, if someone killed my mother with a hammer when I was a young child, I would probably always have a bad association with hammers. It doesn't make the hammer a "bad" tool, nor does it make anyone using a hammer into a murderer. All it means is that a very bad person wanted to kill someone and used whatever tool was convenient to do so. 

For this reason, it really bothers me when people think e-collars, prong collars, etc. should be banned, or that anyone using them must be an abusive bully. It's a tool, people, it's designed NOT to do harm to your dog when used properly!

If I'm not careful, this could turn into an argument about gun control, so I'll just stop right there.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I don't think that's what he meant. I think there is a breakdown of communication between you two.
> 
> The way I read Lou's comment was this: "If you fear that you will abuse your dog in any way, you should not own a dog." From his perspective, it is not the tool that causes abuse, it is the person using it. So when you say you are afraid of abusing your dog with an e-collar, Lou simply hears that you are afraid you might abuse your dog with ANY collar, method or tool... and if you are afraid you are capable of abuse, you shouldn't own a dog.


Good read Freestep. You got my meaning exactly. I’m not sure why Mrs.K misunderstood but I realize that I probably went too far with her, and for that, I apologize. I don't understand people who let their emotions control them, but that's my failing. 



Freestep said:


> And I understand that's not what YOU were saying. You are simply saying (I think) that because you are inexperienced with the e-collar, you are afraid you might make a mistake and hurt your dog with it.


If that's what Mrs.K meant, I didn't get it. Instead, I got that she'd seen abuse with the Ecollar and that she'd placed the blame on the tool, rather than the abuser, the person pressing the button. 



Freestep said:


> I wouldn't be afraid to use it just because someone ELSE used it improperly or abusively, that would be a logical fallacy.


Such logical fallacies make me crazy (short trip there). But again, it's my failing.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A lot of emotions about remote collars are misplaced in that they blame the collar application instead of person using it. Especially people who have never used one are usually the most dogmatic about its use. Feelings on remote collars are often more grounded in emotion than logic. To me it's another tool in the chest....whether you use it depends on you, your dogs needs, and availability of learning correct application.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LouCastle said:


> Much of my work is with SAR dogs and much of that work occurs with people who thought, at one time, that they _"probably [would] not have a need for it."_ Many of them develop a problem that brings them around. Then, when they see well the tool provides communication, and how fast and easy the results come, they say that they'll never train another dog without one.


 It seems the dogs I have seen trained for say, recalls on the ecollar are never as reliable without the collar on. And there's always some testing on the dog's part...they're reliable for awhile, then the ecollar "needs" to be used again. So the dog has to always wear it just in case. So while the initial results seem fast and easy, they only apply while the dog is wearing the collar. Which I know some people find acceptable, just like some are fine using prongs or GLs for walking forever. 

So I guess my question would be, how do you then get the same results without the collar? Or do you just plan to always use it to ensure reliability?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

the op should also read this thread to get some insights into collar/leash politics;

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/264634-social-hierachy-leashes-collars.html


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

AgileGSD said:


> It seems the dogs I have seen trained for say, recalls on the ecollar are never as reliable without the collar on. And there's always some testing on the dog's part...they're reliable for awhile, then the ecollar "needs" to be used again. So the dog has to always wear it just in case. So while the initial results seem fast and easy, they only apply while the dog is wearing the collar. Which I know some people find acceptable, just like some are fine using prongs or GLs for walking forever.
> 
> So I guess my question would be, how do you then get the same results without the collar? Or do you just plan to always use it to ensure reliability?


I'd guess that you use the Ecollar, as most do, by teaching the behavior with some other methods and then use the Ecollar to proof it. When it's done this way, you often get the results that you describe. This is called being "collar wise" and it's a training flaw. It usually has to do with the proximity of putting the Ecollar on, then giving stims, and then removing it after training. I spend a lot of time in desensitizing the dog to the wearing of the collar. This can happen with any tool that's used in training a dog, even something as benign as a bandanna. 

If my methods are used and the trainer is consistent with it, "collar wise" does not occur. My dogs are just as reliable with the Ecollar on as when it's not worn. My methods teach the dogs that the stim comes from the environment, not from the handler, and since the environment is always present (the handler may not be) they tend to be more reliable. 

That being said, I'm a believer in insurance. Like most states, CA requires me to have insurance on my car. But I'm smart enough to realize that, even if I do everything right, it's still possible for some drunk to come careening out of a side street, crash into me, and then disappear into the night. And so, even if the state didn't require it, I'd still have insurance. I hope most reading this would as well. Similarly I know that any dog, no matter how well trained, can make a bad decision that leads him into danger. So just about all the time, when fielding my dogs, they wear an Ecollar. There's a vast gulf between wearing an Ecollar _for insurance _and _NEEDING _it because the trainer hasn't trained to a reliable standard. LOTS of people use the Ecollar for management and they're perfectly happy with those results. The problem in that, is that those folks become addicted to the Ecollar. If the Ecollar isn't on, there's no reliable performance. That's another training flaw. 

Many people who use Ecollars to train must pass a certification. Most of them require that the dog either work "naked" or only wearing a flat buckle collar. I train to that standard for my working dogs. Many people think that the idea of training is that, at some point, you train away the tool used in training. They think THAT is the goal of training. I think that the goal of training is to get reliable behavior. 

By way of example, one of the last dogs that I trained for police work for my department, didn't need a stim for disobeying a command for two years.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware certification was so common with e-collar trainers. I mean actual certification and not Sit Means Sit. We have one of those now, just opened. From what I have heard, the demo dog isn't very reliable even when the collar is on :/

I don't use an ecollar but friends of mine who have, that always seems to be the issue they run into. I do use bark collars on some of my dogs and that is very much the case with them - no barking while the collar is on but it doesn't cause the dog to inhibit themselves when it isn't.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x11 said:


> the op should also read this thread to get some insights into collar/leash politics;
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/264634-social-hierachy-leashes-collars.html


Yeah, I read it and I don't understand what your issue is. Flexi Leads simply do not belong at a Club or Event period and pretty much anyone will tell you that, regardless of your believes. That being said, this topic is about the e-collar. I may not like every post by Lou but the last one certainly makes a lot of sense because it's the same with all tools. You can become dependent. 

I don't like the e-collar, just like many people do not like Flexi Leads but that doesn't mean I can't look into the possibility. Right now I don't have a use for it, the time may change where I do have a use for it, but right now I cannot forsee it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Many people who use Ecollars to train must pass a certification. Most of them require that the dog either work "naked" or only wearing a flat buckle collar. I train to that standard for my working dogs.





AgileGSD said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware certification was so common with e-collar trainers. I mean actual certification and not Sit Means Sit.


It looks as if I wasn't clear with my previous statement. I was talking about THE DOG having to pass a certification of some sort while he's NOT wearing the Ecollar. Specifically police K−9's, SAR K−9's and those who compete in the sports world such as AKC, SchH or Ring Sport. (The latter three, and the rest of the sports world, not technically being "certifications" qualify because they measure the dog's ability to work when the Ecollar is not being worn). 

As far as I know, the only entity passing out certifications for Ecollar trainers is Sit Means Sit. Their main problem is how one obtains the cert. All you have to do is take an enormously expensive (last I heard it was a $15,000 THREE WEEK course) and you come out as a "Certified Remote Specialist." I've never heard of anyone failing the course and not getting a cert. I'm told by a couple of people who have been through the course that MOST of it is about marketing! There are no prerequisites, You may have never trained a dog before (or even owned one) in your life, but after the three week class, you are _certified _to go out and open your own dog training business. 



AgileGSD said:


> We have one of those now, just opened. From what I have heard, the demo dog isn't very reliable even when the collar is on


One of the things they espouse is that you MUST ALWAYS have the Ecollar on your dog and that, for the rest of his life, EVERY command you give is accompanied by a stim. They work at very high levels although, to be fair, there are many graduates who were dog trainers before SMS came along, or some who have done some education afterwards, and they sometimes don't do these things. 

One of the things that most of those trainers do at their demos for prospective clients, is to give their demo dog many commands, one right after another, machine−gun fashion. But if you watch closely you'll see that the dog is only obeying 70% to 80% of them, not a very high degree of reliability. But of course, since most of their work is with pet owners, they don't notice this. I saw this with the founder/owner of the school, with his own dogs. 



AgileGSD said:


> I don't use an ecollar but friends of mine who have, that always seems to be the issue they run into.


It's very common, but it's not inherent in the tool. 



AgileGSD said:


> I do use bark collars on some of my dogs and that is very much the case with them - no barking while the collar is on but it doesn't cause the dog to inhibit themselves when it isn't.


That is exactly the desired effect with bark collars. Usually you don't want to stop ALL barking, just nuisance barking. As with most training that's done with Ecollars, with bark collars there's no guidance, no training of the dog to let him know what is expected or desired of him. You put the bark collar on, and when the dog barks he gets a stim. He's left to his own devices to figure out what cause the stim and how to avoid them in the future. Usually because of the "perfect timing" of the bark collar, dogs make the association between their barking and the stim, and they stop barking very quickly. This is similar to how most people train with the Ecollar. Most people teach the behaviors with some other methods and then put the Ecollar on and stim the dog for noncompliance with a command. There's little or no guidance as to why the stim started, how to make it stop, or how to avoid it in the future. This is typically done at higher levels than the dog will first perceive. In part because the stim level is so high, the dogs become VERY aware of when the Ecollar is on and when it's not. Often with such a system the reliability falls off when the Ecollar is not on the dog. This is known as being "collar wise" or "collar smart." 

My methods stim the dog continuously at the level that he can barely perceive. Then he's guided with hands, leash, treats or ? (it depends on the dog and what's being trained) into the desired behavior and when he starts to perform it (or he achieves it) the stim is shut off. The dogs become "collar literate." That means that they learn that when the stim starts they're doing something wrong. When it stops they've done something right. And that they're in charge of both. Along the way they also learn that this can happen even when the handler is not present, so they tend to be more reliable than with methods that require the handler's presence. Very quickly the training is done without the leash and because of this, combined with the fact that the dog can be guided, even when he's off leash, there's no difficult transition from on−to−off leash.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> the op should also read this thread to get some insights into collar/leash politics;
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/264634-social-hierachy-leashes-collars.html


X11, stop trying to hijack her thread with your drama inducing-thread.

Lou, thanks for your comments, nice insight into E training. I agree, as everything in life, people tend to blame the object rather than the abuser...I can think of a few hot-button political issues off the top of my head, but I digress...lol


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