# New bylaw in Toronto, Canada



## Suki's Mom

Not sure how to post a document, but here is part of the new bylaw:


No more trips into Toronto with my girls (goodbye Woofstock), as they wear prong collars when out and about.


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## duenorth

This is concerning, especially if it starts filtering down to other municipalities. It seems like the bylaw slipped in under the radar. I wonder how much research was done prior to passing it, and how slanted that research might have been? Clear cases of dog abuse aside, I question whether government should be telling people which types of equipment they can use in training and handling their dogs?


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## squerly

duenorth said:


> I question whether government should be telling people which types of equipment they can use in training and handling their dogs?


Of course they shouldn't but that doesn't stop them from doing it. Wonder what the fine is and who is in charge of enforcement?


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## duenorth

According to a December news article: "The new by-law will take effect on March 1, 2017. Anyone found guilty of an offence under the new by-law could face fines of up to $100,000."


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## Suki's Mom

The 9-page document states that "every person who contravenes any provision of this chapter is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of no more than $100,000." Not sure who would enforce it.


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## SuperG

Hopefully.....lawmakers will enact helmet laws for dogs as well.....

SuperG


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## Suki's Mom

SuperG said:


> Hopefully.....lawmakers will enact helmet laws for dogs as well.....
> 
> SuperG



And mandate booties.


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## duenorth

Parts of the bylaw make sense. It's hard to imagine having to tell someone NOT to tie out their dog with a choke or prong collar. But banning certain collars altogether? Someone has overstepped their bounds and sense of reason when it comes to understanding how some of these tools work.


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## llombardo

duenorth said:


> Parts of the bylaw make sense. It's hard to imagine having to tell someone NOT to tie out their dog with a choke or prong collar. But banning certain collars altogether? Someone has overstepped their bounds and sense of reason when it comes to understanding how some of these tools work.


Prong collars are banned in lots of places. I don't agree with it, but maybe it's proven to be a problem or caused injury due to lack of education on the collars?


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## WateryTart

Oh good, let's punish everyone because a few people ruined it.


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## holland

100,000 even in Canadian dollars that is insane...


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## WateryTart

holland said:


> 100,000 *even in Canadian dollars* that is insane...


I just snorted out loud.


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## duenorth

From what I've read, this is only a small part of the bylaw. It is also prohibiting the use of leashes longer than 6 feet. That impacts anyone who wants to teach a recall or track in a public area with a long line. I don't live in Toronto, thankfully, but I can see other municipalities adopting similar laws in the future.


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## duenorth

WateryTart said:


> I just snorted out loud.


At 75 cents, we're not doing too badly. It's been worse!! :smile2:


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## Dracovich

I have to take a moment to appreciate this forum and the fact that people here are not 'dog moms' who think everything forceful is abuse. Bad experiences with dogforums.com

Any training tool can be used wrong and in a harmful way. Head haltis can cause spine damage. Harnesses can rub skin raw. Pull your dog around hard enough with a nylon collar and yeah it hurts them. 
It's not illegal to spank your dog, but it is illegal to beat your dog. Similarly, the law should be against people who use excessive force, not specific tools that are shown to be effective and humane training tools.


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## carmspack

I saw that coming.

people without a clue .

was asked to attend a festival as a representative for animal wellness and "natural care " (species appropriate raw feeding) , first and second year. 

the attendees were more or less within a similar age group - dietary selective (vegetarian / vegan ) 

well the first year I was swarmed at my booth .

very hostile to ANY dog or pet ownership --- they wanted the dogs to run free -- self determine their own social lives

second year the same --- 
the organizers were pet dog owners who did feed raw (which I provided for them at "market")

they were themselves surprised . I was asked by them to participate .

in some cultures that is the norm --- necessitating Russians having to make-disappear packs of street-dogs prior to the Olympics

or the norm in some Caribbean countries where the entire community hands out dinner left overs to roaming "POT" dogs

or in South America where dogs are shot because there are so many of them on the street

what they want is child-dogs , fur-kids with clothing, and perfume, and bandanas --- PERSONAL fulfillment dogs , which is so terribly unfair and has no understanding of the dog needing to be an animal and a dog .


not good


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## islanddog

This was done very quietly. 
I pay attention to the news. 
Prong collars are available in any petstore, and I see plenty of healthy happy dogs walked on them. There hasn't been a rash of abuse cases involving prongs or e-collars or long line, at least none I can think of.
I currently have a 40lb dog, and he's got some training now, so we're fine (I plan to take him on TO beach date in summer) but this bylaw might end up sending some perfectly fabulous dogs to an untimely trip to the rainbow bridge.
I guess Torontonian's will just have to torture their dogs with halti's and bore them to death on a 6' leash. :-(


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## islanddog

Dracovich said:


> I have to take a moment to appreciate this forum and the fact that people here are not 'dog moms' who think everything forceful is abuse. Bad experiences with dogforums.com
> 
> Any training tool can be used wrong and in a harmful way. Head haltis can cause spine damage. Harnesses can rub skin raw. Pull your dog around hard enough with a nylon collar and yeah it hurts them.
> It's not illegal to spank your dog, but it is illegal to beat your dog. Similarly, the law should be against people who use excessive force, not specific tools that are shown to be effective and humane training tools.


I keep trying to fit in there & can't--it's why I'm still here, gsd-less as I now am. This is a good forum.


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## selzer

Don'tcha just love it when the government has to make laws about stuff they know nothing about? This is part of the reason I like less government, and even if I don't like prong collars and don't use them, I wouldn't support this kind of foolishness.


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## vomlittlehaus

Now this would be within city limits only then? How many people show their dogs on choke chains? What about a fur saver? Its not called a choke. Brings up a lot of questions.


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## astrovan2487

I understand that they are doing this to try and crack down on animal abuse but this is completely ridiculous, even more so proven with the $100,000 possible fine. Why not just give super harsh fines and sentences for people that are actually abusing animals or misusing prongs/choke collars? The direction that the US, Canada, and most of Europe's government is going with all these nanny laws really concerns me. If you keep taking away people's freedom of choice they will not be able to make educated choices for themselves anymore.


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## car2ner

(sigh) every tool we use on a dog functions with aversion at some level. Flat collar, harnesses (which are originally make pulling easier), halters are all work by making it uncomfortable for the dog not to follow the human on the other end of the leash. I wonder how many of those folks who wrote this law even own a dog bigger than a cat.


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## carmspack

all those people who invested so much time and energy in drafting and passing this by law should have looked to resolving some of the human issues first ---- people living rough , sleeping on ventilation shafts - some never to see the next sunrise. That is not humane .

wearing a collar is not an abuse nor inhumane.

Metro Toronto has a very fine police k9 unit .

are these dogs included ?


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## LuvShepherds

Halties and Gentle Leaders are the worst. Don't people in this city complain? Vote idiots out of office? Why are people sitting on their hands and taking it? Are dogs allowed off leash anywhere?

Be prepared, it's going to come here too. Then after that, any breed that can't be controlled in every situation without a metal training collar will be eliminated. Then all large dogs. Eventually, the only dogs people will be allowed to own will be tiny dogs.


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## selzer

SuperG said:


> Hopefully.....lawmakers will enact helmet laws for dogs as well.....
> 
> SuperG


and seat belt laws. 

Why don't they make a law against retractable leashes?


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## islanddog

​


LuvShepherds said:


> Halties and Gentle Leaders are the worst. Don't people in this city complain? Vote idiots out of office? Why are people sitting on their hands and taking it? Are dogs allowed off leash anywhere?
> 
> Be prepared, it's going to come here too. Then after that, any breed that can't be controlled in every situation without a metal training collar will be eliminated. Then all large dogs. Eventually, the only dogs people will be allowed to own will be tiny dogs.


I don't think anyone knows. It was probably amended and voted on in council, and not discussed outside. 

I'm wondering when the trainers and owners who use these tools will find out? When they get slapped with a fine? It's just not news--yet.


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## LuvShepherds

islanddog said:


> ​
> I don't think anyone knows. It was probably amended and voted on in council, and not discussed outside.
> 
> I'm wondering when the trainers and owners who use these tools will find out? When they get slapped with a fine? It's just not news--yet.


When they get a fine or someone else does. It should eventually hit the news.


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## LuvShepherds

It's an amendment to a dangerous dog law

City council passes amendments to dangerous dog by-law - CityNews


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## karladupler

This law is a little bit...ridiculous i mean is it me or a martingale collar does the same think as a choke chain? Chokes the dog right? What about slip leads? They function choking the dog as well are they banned?
Now K9 Units...I know in the UK they do not use such tools which I think they are doing a good job if they keep sending dogs out there and if they do not use such tools illegally I'm freaking amazed then.
Now... E-collars....I don't see any electronic collar on that ban... I really wonder now if people will purchase this e-collars and use them without know how to handle such tool.... 
Dogs who are waiting to be adopted and dogs who will be dumped cause people keeps getting the wrong trainers...no matter what tools they better keep focused or tons are going to pay bc of them. 

Overall for me this law do not make sense the only part that makes sense is DO NOT TIE YOUR DOG with a freaking prong or choke chain but...c'mon is common sense right?


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## selzer

karladupler said:


> This law is a little bit...ridiculous i mean is it me or a martingale collar does the same think as a choke chain? Chokes the dog right? What about slip leads? They function choking the dog as well are they banned?
> Now K9 Units...I know in the UK they do not use such tools which I think they are doing a good job if they keep sending dogs out there and if they do not use such tools illegally I'm freaking amazed then.
> Now... E-collars....I don't see any electronic collar on that ban... I really wonder now if people will purchase this e-collars and use them without know how to handle such tool....
> Dogs who are waiting to be adopted and dogs who will be dumped cause people keeps getting the wrong trainers...no matter what tools they better keep focused or tons are going to pay bc of them.
> 
> Overall for me this law do not make sense the only part that makes sense is DO NOT TIE YOUR DOG with a freaking prong or choke chain but...c'mon is common sense right?


Actually, no. A martingale is not a correction collar at all. I prefer the kind that has a little chain on it because the dog will hear the chain and correct their position. 

The martingale works more like a prong collar -- same set up, minus the prongs. So when it tightens, it tightens around the neck, and not just a pressure point. It only tightens to a certain point and prevents the dog from slipping the collar, if the dog is backing up, afraid of something, whatever. 

Any tool can be abused, ill fitted, etc. But the martingale is less likely to be abused by a heavy-handed trainer than a prong collar or choke chain. 

A choke chain or slip lead, will continue to tighten until there is no more room whatsoever. If a dog gets stuck in one, the will turn around and around and shut off their windpipe and strangle to death. Some trainers used to hold a dog up, or tie a dog up with a choke until they were unconscious, this was choking out a dog. And yes, damage to windpipes was found in dogs using this type of collar. 

Used correctly, one can train effectively with one. But half the owners and even groomers can't even put it on correctly -- yes, it makes a difference. On correctly the chain stays relaxed, and used correctly the chain is relaxed and tightened only momentarily, to provide communication to the dog, and immediately relaxed again. It is a training collar and only a training collar and should be removed from the dog when not training. 

One can leave a martingale on a dog. Any collar can get stuck on something and cause injury and even death. A martingale is no more or less dangerous than a flat collar. Not true of the choke-chain. 

Some call a martingale a "humane choke." I wish they wouldn't because it is completely false. Choking is never humane. It would be more correct to call it a humane prong, but that implies that prong collars are inhumane, and that it implies that the martingale is a training collar. It is not. 

I use a flat collar for tags when we go out, and a martingale for the leash. If we aren't leaving the property, my dogs run naked. It is the most safe.


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## elisabeth_00117

As a dog owner, competitor, club member, co-creator who resides in Ontario and visits Toronto often (sometimes weekly) I am shocked, disappointed and extremely angry.

I will be rallying with others to see this repealed.

All Canadians, friends at the border should be seeking out the petition (I will link it once I am at my computer) to sign, writing letters to our MPs and council, etc.

This is just another step in the wrong direction.... It's going to snowball....This is just the start of this propaganda. 

Please take the time to help!


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## squerly

SuperG said:


> Hopefully.....lawmakers will enact helmet laws for dogs as well.....
> 
> SuperG


I don't think they should be allowed to ride in the first place. Their legs aren't long enough to hold up the bike.


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## islanddog

I've been reading more, does not appy to police, no other exemptions. 

It pretty much was snuck through. Originally the ban was on using choke or prong on a tethered dog--I can't imagine disagreeing with that. Most of bylaw 102 2017 makes sense. 

A group dog walk, anyone? I'm not sure if my guy is ready (shy) but I'm sure many are. It would risk fines, of course. What do the TO IPO folks think? They train mostly outside the city, (3 clubs near me) but there must be members who live in TO?


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## elisabeth_00117

From friends in the immediate area or those like me who travel into the city for work most weeks means that we are risking a fine if we want to get together to train or those who need to use it in the city for extra control.

Frustrated, shocked are good words to use from the IPO community I have spoken too.


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## carmspack

so what does that mean to "pet-shope" that sell slip and pinch collars?


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## elisabeth_00117

Carmen, don't you know this was a well thought out plan by our legislators....

*Insert scarasm here.


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## Baillif

There is pretty much no difference in sensation to a prong (assuming you didn't sharpen the points and a martingale except the martingale isn't as good at even distribution of pressure all the way around the neck.)

They do not pinch and they do not poke. They call it a pinch collar because you pinch the links together to take it off and put it on. To get those prong points to piece skin you have to basically helicopter the dog or yank it so hard it knocks the dog off its feet even if you used the 2.23 mm small version with extra links. The law is senseless. 

*** Removed by ADMIN - political ***


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## Femfa

This makes me very, very sad. Clearly someone with a lot of "feelings" and not a lot of critical thinking decided this would be a good move without considering those working with dogs that need such tools to be handled appropriately, and at times safely.


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## car2ner

sigh, if they think that everything can be fixed by a well timed treat, they haven't really trained a dog. I'd have to never feed my dogs from a bowl and work for every bite they get during a walk for that to work. A tasty tidbit won't compete with wanting to go over to another dog or chase a squirrel, for instance. I'd have to watch my dog every second and as soon as that glance happens or that ear pricks we'd have to change course. I guess we would all have a better handle on our dogs or we'd be forced to leave them home when we go out. What a sad city to live in.


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## carmspack

a dog that is trained won't need to have that pinch or slip collar on for corrections , or punishment which is probably the idea that was advanced .

what those collars provide is security , safety for the dog

the worst collars are those prong plastic buckles that if the dog pulls start to fatigue and eventually fail - and then you are left there with the leash and collar in your hand and the dog running across traffic 

then there are people who don't know how to fit a flat collar . The collar is so large it is resting on the dogs shoulders - the dog can back out of them. 

the harnesses are useless and ill fitting , interfering with freedom of movement in the front . Hobbled .


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## Sunsilver

They definitely snuck this one in! I didn't know about it until a friend who trains dogs for a living posted it on FB!

Interesting coincidence that Monique Anstee of The Naughty Dogge also posted THIS in her blog last week, about a woman who couldn't control her dogs, and was at risk of having them both euthanized: 

https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/posts/10154184408331246?comment_id=10154186482361246&notif_t=feed_comment_reply&notif_id=1488552897129322&hc_location=ufi"]

If I make the link live, it disappears, so you will have to cut and paste. I guess that's because I'm a newbie, and they are afraid I will post spam. I would cut and paste the post from her blog, but I'm not sure if that is permitted without her permission.


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## Sunsilver

Oh, what the heck...this NEEDS to be said!

Here's the whole blog posts. Mods, feel free to remove it if this is not allowed.

As a Dog Society, we are failing.

I've been having run-ins with a woman with her two out-of-control dogs. Both of her dogs are reactive, and one is downright dangerous, but that isn't the subject of this blog, though it will be the subject of many future ones.

What this blog is about is how we, dog trainers and the current world of training, have failed this woman and many others.

How? She has been told, and believes, that she can retrain her aggressive rescue dog, of a fighting breed, that darn near outweighs her, that she can do it without corrections. She cannot.

Instead, she has a dog, well two dogs, that she cannot control, and cannot walk on a leash. She physically cannot hold onto their leash. They outweigh her and take her to their victims.

No one has taught this woman about corrective equipment that can help her get control. It isn't politically correct, so dog-trainers skip those conversations. Instead, I'm sure her mentors are watching, waiting for her to euthanize her dangerous dog. Because euthanizing is easier than putting on a pinch collar and risking being bad mouthed by your peers in this small town.

Her solution thus far, rather than looking like a water-skier behind a boat, is to unclip the less-dangerous one. Can we fault her? No. Her no-pull harness was not designed for her lunging gladiator. And no meatball or roasted liver treat outweighs the reward of a freshly caught Border Collie.

It's time for people in the rescue world and dog trainers to get honest again. If we want to adopt this type of dog out, we need to be honest and admit that the training methods that we suggest for your perfect but unruly labradoodle and all regular pet dogs will not be suitable for a dog bred to protect at no cost, who out-weighs you, and who is coming with past baggage.

Monique Anstee
The Naughty Dogge


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## cloudpump

That's a great statement. There is a lot of truth in that. 
I'm curious if the ban will be overlooked until it becomes an issue in a neglect or abuse case. Like the Ontario BSL?


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## Sunsilver

topic not allowed. Please see Administrator Messages at the top of the forum.


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## Thecowboysgirl

My dog is my second who requires a martingale. He knows how to pop out of a collar and every once in awhile is enough of a booger to try. So his regular daily collar is a martingale. I can't tell that it has any corrective function at all, maybe if it were adjusted differently? His is adjusted so that with the loop pulled as far as it goes it is snug against his neck but not causing any "choke" sensation. it simply makes it impossible for him to back out of it.

I had hoped he would outgrow that idea but I am beginning to think maybe not.


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## Chip18

Sunsilver said:


> It's time for people in the rescue world and dog trainers to get honest again. If we want to adopt this type of dog out, we need to be honest and admit that the training methods that we suggest for your perfect but unruly labradoodle and all regular pet dogs will not be suitable for a dog bred to protect at no cost, who out-weighs you, and who is coming with past baggage.
> 
> Monique Anstee
> The Naughty Dogge


What can I say but yes??? I've seen those owners ... if I have my dog with me ... I stay well clear. If I don't have my dog ... I "try" and offer help but you know no takers ... thus far?? The really sad "fails" are people that are trying. But they are going with "what they know or belive will work "PO" ... with the wrong dog and it's just not working??? They know they have a "problem" but they feel ... there is just no hope??? 

I tried one day at an on leash dog park. The guy said he was working with a "trainer" and other dogs were getting hurt??? All he wanted was a dog to enjoy life with and now he was "trapped??" He was in a leashed dog only area and his (Breed Who Shall Not Be Mentioned) was on a long line and the dog was of course "pulling away" he was staying well clear of others but of course not every dog there was on a leash so .... yeah.

I saw him in the distance and put "Rocky" away to see if I could help??? That's how I know the details of his story, of course it was an otherwise sweet dog ... but the guy needed "Real" help with the dogs "Issues." I gave him my phone number but never heard from him. 

It's one thing when people just have no clue and don't care to bother trying but it's quite another to see an owner struggling to cope and getting/paying for useless advise, while trying crap that is just not gonna work. So yes it starts with "Rescue" and lots of them just don't have a clue ... kinda sad.


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## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My dog is my second who requires a martingale. He knows how to pop out of a collar and every once in awhile is enough of a booger to try. So his regular daily collar is a martingale. I can't tell that it has any corrective function at all, maybe if it were adjusted differently? His is adjusted so that with the loop pulled as far as it goes it is snug against his neck but not causing any "choke" sensation. it simply makes it impossible for him to back out of it.
> 
> I had hoped he would outgrow that idea but I am beginning to think maybe not.


Nope no "mystery" there ... that is what a "Martingale Collar" is designed to do. But ... becasue it's "different" people tend to "assume" it's a training collar. 

I hear from people that use them and ... I let it go, if they go that route "Martingale" they are "essentially" using a regular collar and leash. That works also if they believe that they can now train there dog because of the "Martingale" ... no harm no foul. 

So it not being on the "Banned" list makes perfect sense ... city board must have talked to someone???


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## car2ner

They should take the folks with the power to make changes take some strong steady dogs for a walk. We did that with my sister. She was a boarder collie person who did agility and now is a photographer at dog events. She said that she'd never use a prong collar. My big boy is a very level headed dog, but he does take advantage. We use the prong as a simple check if he wants to push his weight around. We gave my sis the leash and clipped it to his martingale. My sister, who is very dog smart, was nearly dragged down the trail. "OK, you can clip it back on the prong collar now. This is like trying to walk a horse", she yelled as she was struggling to keep up with my boy. (I swear my dog has a sense of humor). We clipped the leash to the prong and he walked with her like a gentleman. No pain, no stress, just a nice walk. 

That is what these law makers need to experience for themselves.


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## carmspack

car2ner I don't think they care because this is only the beginning !

eventually NO dog ownership . No pets . IPO will have to go underground - meet at secretive locations .

who is going to patrol? 

does a car passing through Toronto with a dog in a back seat wearing a choke qualify?

what is the limit to this nonsense.


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## cloudpump

carmspack said:


> car2ner I don't think they care because this is only the beginning !
> 
> eventually NO dog ownership . No pets . IPO will have to go underground - meet at secretive locations .
> 
> who is going to patrol?
> 
> does a car passing through Toronto with a dog in a back seat wearing a choke qualify?
> 
> what is the limit to this nonsense.


The way it's going... Only certain groups will have purebred dogs. Everyone else will have to adopt and we all know what breeds are and aren't available....


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## Nurse Bishop

Leerburg makes a collar that is prong but does not look like a prong. It looks like a flat collar. Another collar not mentioned is the e collar. so much for the pc owners of urban poodles.


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## Chip18

Nurse Bishop said:


> Leerburg makes a collar that is prong but does not look like a prong. It looks like a flat collar. Another collar not mentioned is the e collar. so much for the pc owners of urban poodles.


I'd be pretty sure they already Banned the E-Collar. I was going to track it down but stopped here.:

The shocking truth about e-collars

It looks like that ban passed in 2014, despite evidence to the contrary indicating that the "Tool" in question helped save dogs lives.


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## Suki's Mom

elisabeth_00117 said:


> As a dog owner, competitor, club member, co-creator who resides in Ontario and visits Toronto often (sometimes weekly) I am shocked, disappointed and extremely angry.
> 
> I will be rallying with others to see this repealed.
> 
> All Canadians, friends at the border should be seeking out the petition (I will link it once I am at my computer) to sign, writing letters to our MPs and council, etc.
> 
> This is just another step in the wrong direction.... It's going to snowball....This is just the start of this propaganda.
> 
> Please take the time to help!



I will most definitely sign the petition. Please do post the link when you can.


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## duenorth

Chip18 said:


> I'd be pretty sure they already Banned the E-Collar. I was going to track it down but stopped here.:
> 
> The shocking truth about e-collars
> 
> It looks like that ban passed in 2014, despite evidence to the contrary indicating that the "Tool" in question helped save dogs lives.


Ecollars aren't banned in Ontario. That article from 2014 references a bill they were trying (and failed) to pass in British Columbia. But banning certain training tools certainly paves the way for others to be banned as well.

Here's the link to the petition urging Toronto city council to remove the ban:

https://www.change.org/p/the-toronto-city-council-remove-the-ban-on-training-collars-in-toronto-by-law-102-2017


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## Chip18

duenorth said:


> Ecollars aren't banned in Ontario. That article from 2014 references a bill they were trying (and failed) to pass in British Columbia. But banning certain training tools certainly paves the way for others to be banned as well.
> 
> Here's the link to the petition urging Toronto city council to remove the ban:
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/the-toronto-city-council-remove-the-ban-on-training-collars-in-toronto-by-law-102-2017


Thanks for the clarification and the link ... I hope they can get it removed.


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## Chip18

duenorth said:


> Ecollars aren't banned in Ontario. That article from 2014 references a bill they were trying (and failed) to pass in British Columbia. But banning certain training tools certainly paves the way for others to be banned as well.
> 
> Here's the link to the petition urging Toronto city council to remove the ban:
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/the-toronto-city-council-remove-the-ban-on-training-collars-in-toronto-by-law-102-2017


 I'll share the link on BoxerForum.


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## Suki's Mom

duenorth said:


> Ecollars aren't banned in Ontario. That article from 2014 references a bill they were trying (and failed) to pass in British Columbia. But banning certain training tools certainly paves the way for others to be banned as well.
> 
> Here's the link to the petition urging Toronto city council to remove the ban:
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/the-toront...n-training-collars-in-toronto-by-law-102-2017


I signed.


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## Dracovich

Nurse Bishop said:


> Leerburg makes a collar that is prong but does not look like a prong. It looks like a flat collar. Another collar not mentioned is the e collar. so much for the pc owners of urban poodles.


I saw that, and I felt a bit aggravated that it was necessary to make a hidden training tool because people are too ignorant.


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## islanddog

Really dumb question about the petition.
Who can see your name & address? Toronto City Council--yes, I want them to see my name and address. The whole world & google, not so much.
I'm sure I'll sign very soon.
It's a well-written petition, could have been slightly more specific...to allow prongs for dogs being trained and exercised; retaining the ban on tie-outs is absolutely fine with me, but then again, idiots and cruel people will do as they please, ban or no ban (the latest cruelty in TO news was accomplished with a brocolli elastic) and embedded flat collars kill dogs. (I think the current ban might have been slipped through due to an embedded prong case in the local news last year, just a bit before the brocolli elastic disaster)


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## Dracovich

islanddog said:


> Really dumb question about the petition.
> Who can see your name & address? Toronto City Council--yes, I want them to see my name and address. The whole world & google, not so much.
> I'm sure I'll sign very soon.
> It's a well-written petition, could have been slightly more specific...to allow prongs for dogs being trained and exercised; retaining the ban on tie-outs is absolutely fine with me, but then again, idiots and cruel people will do as they please, ban or no ban (the latest cruelty in TO news was accomplished with a brocolli elastic) and embedded flat collars kill dogs. (I think the current ban might have been slipped through due to an embedded prong case in the local news last year, just a bit before the brocolli elastic disaster)


You can give a fake name or fake address, I doubt they will go through every single signing to confirm they are real people, besides that, you're a real person even if your name isn't Jessica Messica at 666 Mordor Avenue


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## selzer

Dracovich said:


> You can give a fake name or fake address, I doubt they will go through every single signing to confirm they are real people, besides that, you're a real person even if your name isn't Jessica Messica at 666 Mordor Avenue


I don't know how it is in Canada, but in Ohio, it is the Sheriff's department that is to verify signatures on petitions if there is any need. Also, I do not know what a city counsel would care about a petition where a lot of the signees are not in the area. Of course signing fraudulently is disgusting, though I do not know if it is illegal. 

Personally, if I lived in Toronto and cared about it, I would contact the member of the counsel for the ward that I belong to, and discuss it directly, and tell him you would like to attend a Counsel meeting and have a list of professional dog trainers, and local owners that oppose this. 

Internet petitions and e-mails are not as effective as hard copy, a letter through snail mail, and a phone call.


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## Sunsilver

When I had the boarding kennel, the vast majority of dogs that came in had their flat collars fitted so loose that they could easily slip out of them, which is why I usually used a noose to take the dog back to the kennel!

Had a reactive Golden come in, towing his owner behind him. The dog needed to be rehomed, and already had a muzzle order slapped on him, because someone's off-leash chi mix attacked him when he was left outside, tied to a tree, while his owner went inside to go to the washroom. OF COURSE, he defended himself, and the smaller dog was the one that got hurt.

I put a prong on him and in 10 minutes, had him walking nicely by my side on a loose leash. (Yes, treats were involved!) 
I showed the owner's son (the dog's main caretaker) how to do it, and he caught on really fast.

This situation had been an accident waiting to happen, due to the lack of control. He was being walked in a halti, which they saw as a cheap alternative to a muzzle. If there had been another incident, they would have been slapped with a hefty fine, and the dog likely would have been euthanized.

Nothing wrong with the dog's temperament at all. I had him professionally evaluated, as I was the one who'd been asked to help rehome him, and I didn't want to pass an aggressive dog on to someone else.


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## Dalko43

Outlawing the use of a choke collar is stupid and is not something the government needs to be involved in. This is the slippery slope others have alluded to, when you start to allow governments to get involved in licensing breeds, trainers, and methods, they start to infringe on legitimate training methods and the law-abiding dog-owners out there...it's the "you give an inch, they take a mile" mentality. 

I love Canada, I've met some really great people up there, but some of the laws that are passed are just obscene...and that's coming from a NY resident.


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## Dracovich

I feel like BSL is soon to follow.


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## Sunsilver

Draco, for people living in Toronto, Ontario, it's already HERE, and has been since 2005 when the province banned a number of breeds.


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## Dracovich

Sunsilver said:


> Draco, for people living in Toronto, Ontario, it's already HERE, and has been since 2005 when the province banned a number of breeds.


That really sucks. I looked into it, it looks like Ontario has not decreased incident despite laws against certain breeds, but the incidents have decreased drastically in Calgary with strong licensing law, enforcement and dog safety public education campaigns. 

https://www.torontohumanesociety.com/pdfs/Breed_Specific_Legislation_Jan-14.pdf

There's only a handful of cities in the US that have breed specific laws, luckily there are none in my cities. Sadly despite laws, people can still deny renters based on the breed of their dog.

These supposed dangerous breeds are more strong willed and often do benefit from the use of training collars, which is why I feel the rate of incident will increase if people do not have the proper tools for correction. Therefor just reinforcing the narrow view on these breeds.


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## georgy girl

There is a poll. Perhaps this law can be changed. Look at the bottom of the article

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...n-barks-up-the-wrong-tree-dog-lovers-say.html


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## georgy girl

Sunsilver said:


> Draco, for people living in Toronto, Ontario, it's already HERE, and has been since 2005 when the province banned a number of breeds.


List of Dogs Banned by the Ontario Government | Dog Care - The Daily Puppy


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## Suki's Mom

I listened to a clip of a radio interview of the counselor who drove the ban, and he compares a prong collar to barbed wire around the neck, and that the pain makes a dog vicious.


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## islanddog

Suki's Mom said:


> I listened to a clip of a radio interview of the counselor who drove the ban, and he compares a prong collar to barbed wire around the neck, and that the pain makes a dog vicious.


So called 'force free' trainers say this all time--they are so sincere, they consider themselves experts. Hard to argue with given what a prong collar looks like. They have never used a prong collar, or they have used on on the wrong dog in the wrong way. 

Okay, so here's my email to Glen De Baermaeker,
I will be providing my full name, phone number, and address with the email (not included here, of course)


It's still in draft. Did I say something stupid?
_
Dear Councillor Glen De Baeremaeker 

I realize you have the best of intentions and your care for the welfare of dogs is your primary motivation for the amendment to By-law 102-2017, subsection 349-8.1 that bans prong collars and choke collars, but it creates far more problems than it solves.

I'm sure you are hearing the objections now. I thought, instead of repeating those, or arguing, I would send you a link to a video of my dog, he's wearing a prong collar in this video; he is playing, he is having fun, he is obeying my instructions because it's fun and rewarding to do so. 





 
I have worn his collar on my own neck, and have tugged on it. It does not hurt (although it would be embarrassing to do this in public). I have tried the so called humane alternative, the head halter, and that device induces outright panic in dogs. A previous dog I owned, a german shepherd, suffered whiplash from wearing a head halter. I have never had a dog injured from wearing a prong collar, nor have I suffered a injury when my dogs were wearing a prong collar. My previous dog, a German Shepherd, caused her dog-walker (a professional dog trainer) to have a dislocated shoulder--this German Shepherd was a wonderful normal exuberant dog.
I have permanent tendon damage in my left hand due to a 'leash accident' from my current 40 lb dog when he unexpectedly darted towards the street. I started using the prong with him afterwards; without it I would have been unable to walk him for many months as the injury was severe. I did try to condition him to a head-halter but it causes a great deal of distress/panic when he is outdoors (the extreme restraint scares him).
I train dogs motivationally, and participate in agility (a fun dog sport that dogs love), but in the real world, where 'mistakes' can be deadly (dog gets hit by a car) I don't take chances.
Having owned bigger dogs (60 - 80 lbs), and now that I have a smaller dog (40 lbs), I won't feel my dog is safe in the city of Toronto, given that the new bylaw will lead to well-meaning law abiding owners losing control of their dog when their 'he's never done that before' dog lunges at my dog.

However, I am mostly concerned for the welfare of the dogs--owners who are having trouble with their dogs will end up choosing to leave their dogs home and under-exercised at best, at worst, they will give up on their dogs and rehome or euthanize them for simply acting like a dog. Somewhere in the middle will be the dejected dogs stuffed into 'head-halter's' and head-halters are not safe or humane from the dogs point of view (humans love them, dogs hate them). 

Dogs can be abused by many things, even elastic bands. (this was recently in the news), flat collars kill dogs when they get embedded (horrifyingly true). Banning training collars does not increase the welfare and safety of dogs.

Please take the time to listen to those of us who love and care for our dogs, who train in ways that give the dog fun and confidence, who ensure that others not only are safe, but feel safe, when we walk our dogs down the street, and who do are best to include our dogs in as many activities of our life as practical--long walks, picnics, beach days, walking along the board walk, camping trips and dog sports.

Sincerely, because I love dogs, and want them all to have a chance at living a normal life of long walks and fresh air._


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## car2ner

Island Dog, I pray that they read your message and understand the intent. We also use prong collars so I am biased. To me it looks like a well written note but it is mostly opinion. You might need to find something with more "teeth" in it. Some sort of statistics or experts. If you can find a study that would help. Or you could find a number of like minded folks for them to see that there is a large enough group of pro-training collar folks to sway an election.


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## islanddog

car2ner said:


> Island Dog, I pray that they read your message and understand the intent. We also use prong collars so I am biased. To me it looks like a well written note but it is mostly opinion. You might need to find something with more "teeth" in it. Some sort of statistics or experts. If you can find a study that would help. Or you could find a number of like minded folks for them to see that there is a large enough group of pro-training collar folks to sway an election.


hi, and thanks.
I'm hoping professional trainers with experience will step in with their expertise.
It's hard to prove a negative, and given the variables, the individual dog, handler, situation, I have no idea how anyone could do scientific study--if anyone finds one, let me know, I would appreciate it.
Since I only know my own dogs, I've stuck with my own first hand experience, one letter amoung many if people speak up.
Still wondering what some local training schools will do--business as usual?


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## Suki's Mom

There are quite a few trainers involved on the FaceBook page set up for this, and they are actively contacting their counselors, giving radio and newspaper interviews, etc. 




I don't live in the city, so don't really have an official leg to stand on, but am greatly interested in the issue.


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## duenorth

Good discussion last night on the issue on a Niagara radio station: Dog Talk with Dave McMahon


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## islanddog

So I sent my letter, as is with minor revisions. It is a first person account, my dogs, my experiences, my valid observations--the science of one. Unlike many on the other side of the debate, I actually do the experiment, and I was polite. Polite is important. Because politicians, these politicians, are doing their jobs, doing what they believe is the right thing, just as I, a private citizen writing a letter of concern, am trying to do the right thing.

Any other links to civil actions, I would be interested, although I'm not keen on joining facebook groups, if some other form of contact can be arranged, I would be interested (here or email or website).

I don't live in Toronto either, it doesn't mean I cannot have an opinion. I care about dogs, I don't want to think of what happens to all the large boisterous dogs that live there when their owners get advised to confine, rehome or euthanize. I've spent more than enough time on a 'force free' forum (what you folks (and me sometimes) call all positive, or positive only) and I know exactly what advice is given to owners of dogs that don't respond to their training methods. Occasionally it might be correct, a dog has neurological problems and absolutely cannot cope with ordinary life, but they won't even consider alternatives, no matter what the circumstance. This is the training philosophy being enforced in Toronto.


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## Chip18

Hmmm been following this online and the Slip lead leash came up??? "Technically" it can function as a "Choke Collar" is a "SLL" Banned also???


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## islanddog

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm been following this online and the Slip lead leash came up??? "Technically" it can function as a "Choke Collar" is a "SLL" Banned also???


that would be under the "and similar" category--you can use a martingale--unless you're actually trying to choke a dog, a martingale would accomplish the same thing but be far less convenient. I use a slip leash in agility for quick no fuss leash-ups.

they did paint a broad brush.


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## Dracovich

I looked up this ban on facebook, seems like most of the posts are dog moms supporting the ban. Dog moms are ruining canine ownership for those who don't treat dogs like humans.

I just don't get how people can think that you can train a dog to do anything with a treat and a happy voice. How many positive only trainers rehabilitate large dangerous dogs anyway? None of the success stories I've read or watched on rehabbed dogs were trained by positive only trainers.


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## Suki's Mom

Dracovich said:


> I looked up this ban on facebook, seems like most of the posts are dog moms supporting the ban. Dog moms are ruining canine ownership for those who don't treat dogs like humans.
> 
> I just don't get how people can think that you can train a dog to do anything with a treat and a happy voice. How many positive only trainers rehabilitate large dangerous dogs anyway? None of the success stories I've read or watched on rehabbed dogs were trained by positive only trainers.



Diva is food motivated, no question about it. Suki, on the other hand, is not. You could wave a piece of steak dipped in peanut butter in front of her, and she will likely ignore it if something else has her attention. There is no one-fit solution here, as they like to think.


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## Dalko43

Dracovich said:


> I looked up this ban on facebook, seems like most of the posts are dog moms supporting the ban. *Dog moms are ruining canine ownership for those who don't treat dogs like humans.*


That quote probably best sums up everything that is wrong the PC, positive-only dog training culture that exists today. Dog mom's (and to be fair I've met dog dad's as well) are overly protective, overly sensitive owners who treat their dogs more like human children; they do not need to be dictating to me or anyone else how I train my dog.

If they want to baby their dogs, fine, have at it. But there are other owners/trainers who have a practical necessity for certain corrective tools and training methods (a prong collar being one of those tools); it's downright arrogant and close-minded for a pure-positive trainer to tell someone else that certain tools and methods aren't ethical or legal.

IMHO, some of these pure-positive trainers are okay, but some have their heads up their butt's and don't know the first thing about owning or training dogs of working heritage or dogs with severe behavioral issues.


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## Lilian Meyer

If course, this is ridiculous to us, because we know how to properly use and train with these collars, but I have seen way to many abusers of these collars to be mad at this bylaw. If it does reduce animal cruelty, it is worth it, but if it's just because uneducated people think that they're inherently cruel, then I do shake my head at this development.


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## selzer

I am against the ban, only because I think government should butt their incredibly ignorant nose out of most things. I don't use prong collars or e-collars, and rarely use treats, and yes, I can train my dogs to do pretty much anything, certainly to not yank my arm out of my socket, or drag me down the road, which is better than 90% of the prong-collar abusers. 

Not everyone who uses prong collars are abusers of course. But it rankles those of us who can and do train without them to hear us mocked and put down as much as it rankles those of you who think you _need_ them to be told, that no, you do not. 

Sorry, not a dog mom. I am a dog breeder. Yes, I have taken prong collars off of adult, out of control dogs, and have had no trouble training and working with those dogs with no training aids. In fact, I only put a collar on a dog when we leave the property, otherwise they are perfectly controlled with nothing, no leash, no collar, no check chain, no e-collar, no jar of pennies, and so on and so forth. My voice is my greatest tool, and can be used to provide negative and positive markers. Maybe my dogs do not need harsh corrections from me, because I have not built them up to that level of correction. 

You know, we teach our dogs to ignore our regular voice by not following through. Then we teach the dog to ignore our commands, by accepting non-compliance/not following through. We build them up to need harsher and harsher punishments by being inconsistent, and failing to follow through. 

It isn't rocket science to train a dog. 

Evenso, the government knows less about dog training than most of the yayhoos yanking away at prong collars, so they should keep that nose out of it. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty, and if someone injures their dog with a prong collar or anything else, they should face animal cruelty charges. Why ban the collars?


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## islanddog

Lilian Meyer said:


> If course, this is ridiculous to us, because we know how to properly use and train with these collars, but I have seen way to many abusers of these collars to be mad at this bylaw. If it does reduce animal cruelty, it is worth it, but if it's just because uneducated people think that they're inherently cruel, then I do shake my head at this development.


Just curious, is the abuse on-line or in real life? Maybe it's regional. The only dogs I have actually seen wearing prongs are dogs enjoying (and I do mean enjoying) a leashed neighbourhood walk, and in schutzhund and in classes wear trainers are part of that world.
I did see a big black lab with a prong on in a dog park, which is stupid (a real hazard given dogs like to grab each other by the neck--against dogpark rules too), but definitely not getting abused, but maybe there are regional differences?

I would think the abused dogs are stuck hidden in back yards, chained somewhere out of sight. 

The original bylaw, (without the tiny but significant amendment) is meant to tackle abuse, limits on tethering, and banning choke and prong collars used to tether dogs. I would not want that part rescinded--most of the bylaw is very good.


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## Chip18

islanddog said:


> that would be under the "and similar" category--you can use a martingale--unless you're actually trying to choke a dog, a martingale would accomplish the same thing but be far less convenient. I use a slip leash in agility for quick no fuss leash-ups.
> 
> they did paint a broad brush.


Uh wow!! That is ... pretty messed up??? 

Martingale is "useless" with dogs with issues?? Pretty much the same as training with a Regular Collar ... but a dog with issues? I know of no one that is "effective" in rehabbing dogs that does it with a regular collar???? 

That bill/ban is seriously messed up! Sounds like "Boxer*World*" forum ... run amoke! If a cookie won't fix it "PTS" will ... glad I don't live in "Toronto" ... Good Luck to those who do, if they have the ... "Wrong Dog."


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## carmspack

all the humane shelters and shelters should take a better and more realistic honest look at what they are releasing as re-homes.

too often the tag line -- well the poor animal was abused as a pup .

with love he can be a new dog.

sometimes.

more often than not , training, discipine, parameters , and life long careful management are in order.

if all dogs were trained well, if all owners were competent in management , then you could have a utopian no equipment whatsoever policy.

until then , I would prefer that the lunging dog that I am approaching while walking with my own dog , (well mannered well trained , walking beside me with a slack leash), was able to be safely and physically controlled - and not by a bandana or break away plastic clip collar.

the muzzle encircling devices are depressing to the dog . That's not right or fair.
Plus the dogs tend to not ravel straight , they crab and that will have physical repercussions down the road .


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## Chip18

Well "Jeff Gellman" brought the "SLL" bit to my attention. He travels all over the "world" and all across the "US" in his "RV" tours. Perhaps contact him and "Cesar Millan???" Tyler Muto, Larry Krohn "Ty The Dog guy" and Rob Peladeau, to name a few might be willing to chime in ?? Don't know if any of them would give a crap ... as it's not there problem ... but it could not hurt.


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## Dracovich

Chip18 said:


> Well "Jeff Gellman" brought the "SLL" bit to my attention. He travels all over the "world" and all across the "US" in his "RV" tours. Perhaps contact him and "Cesar Millan???" Tyler Muto, Larry Krohn "Ty The Dog guy" and Rob Peladeau, to name a few might be willing to chime in ?? Don't know if any of them would give a crap ... as it's not there problem ... but it could not hurt.


Who are you quoting? There's a whole lot of quotation marks, but I'm not sure who you are referring to.


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## Chip18

Dracovich said:


> Who are you quoting? There's a whole lot of quotation marks, but I'm not sure who you are referring to.


Yeah ... sorry ... I've heard that before. 

But I'm doing "better" no complaints about my excessive use of "exclamations marks??" That's progress ... in a fashion. Most likely ... I get in the way of my own message at times but what are you gonna do??? I blame "William Faulkner" he had his thing ... I have mine ... sorry.


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## Suki's Mom

The CKC has made an official statement denouncing the amendment: CKC Denounces Recent Amendment to Toronto Animal Control Bylaw | CKC


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## cherub737

I truly believe it is never the tool but always the tool holder. Any tool can be made bad based on the mind of the one who possesses it. I have seen a pen in the wrong persons hand destroy an entire career...or masking tape kill a dog. It is never the tool itself. Many folk use prong collars correctly...sometimes with a tiny pop as a stim in tracking just before the food...a marker so to speak; some use it in heeling with the same measure...tiny pops up and get the food....others hang a dog by it or yank the dog mercilessly in their anger. The thing that needs to have better regulation are animal abuse laws/consequences and mandated education. There is a dichotomy across the board. Germany speaks against it also and yet the best made prong collar comes from there...clearly this topic is divided everywhere. But I think to blatantly ban anything is the same misguided thought process that bands certain breeds in the same manner.


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## carmspack

Suki's Mom said:


> The CKC has made an official statement denouncing the amendment: CKC Denounces Recent Amendment to Toronto Animal Control Bylaw | CKC



.
On Monday while driving around on radio 1010 there was one of the councillors , being interviewed by host Jim Richards with regards to the dog collar ban.
Richards stated that as part of the preparation for this segment he had spoken to many trainers and organizations and almost to a one they felt that the ban was just wrong and not necessary.

This included a guide dog organization which trains, certifies and provides dogs to those in need.

The councillor had little dog knowledge or experience , limited to being an owner of three cats , but he dug in his heels in defense of the by-law.

He said why is it that Toronto Humane can take dogs that have been surrendered because of human or dog aggression and they can train these dogs without collars, be they pinch , and forbid an effectively and appropriately used e-collar.

really? 

one caller "Ivan" said that he was a trainer where some of these hard cases were sent to for training.
I know that the trainer of our training club trained dogs sent to him by local shelters -- many of them were pit bulls that got dumped when the breed-ban came in.
At this moment I know another trainer who is training dogs with problems so that they can be rehomed.

of course you had your breathless people calling in saying that the slip collars were instruments of torture - that dogs were hung as a correction.

one worry was that there was talk of a cross Ontario ban -


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## Suki's Mom

The latest on this (that I'm aware of) is that the matter is being re-opened so that they can expressly exempt service animals (this after the Guide Dog Users of Canada asked for an exemption for their members). I believe one of the counselors is supporting that the whole bylaw be re-opened.


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## cloudpump

carmspack said:


> .
> On Monday while driving around on radio 1010 there was one of the councillors , being interviewed by host Jim Richards with regards to the dog collar ban.
> Richards stated that as part of the preparation for this segment he had spoken to many trainers and organizations and almost to a one they felt that the ban was just wrong and not necessary.
> 
> This included a guide dog organization which trains, certifies and provides dogs to those in need.
> 
> The councillor had little dog knowledge or experience , limited to being an owner of three cats , but he dug in his heels in defense of the by-law.
> 
> He said why is it that Toronto Humane can take dogs that have been surrendered because of human or dog aggression and they can train these dogs without collars, be they pinch , and forbid an effectively and appropriately used e-collar.
> 
> really?
> 
> one caller "Ivan" said that he was a trainer where some of these hard cases were sent to for training.
> I know that the trainer of our training club trained dogs sent to him by local shelters -- many of them were pit bulls that got dumped when the breed-ban came in.
> At this moment I know another trainer who is training dogs with problems so that they can be rehomed.
> 
> of course you had your breathless people calling in saying that the slip collars were instruments of torture - that dogs were hung as a correction.
> 
> one worry was that there was talk of a cross Ontario ban -


Is it just the city limits of Toronto? Or is it the metropolitan area.


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## duenorth

Suki's Mom said:


> The latest on this (that I'm aware of) is that the matter is being re-opened so that they can expressly exempt service animals (this after the Guide Dog Users of Canada asked for an exemption for their members). I believe one of the counselors is supporting that the whole bylaw be re-opened.


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/28/choke-chain-ban-goes-back-before-toronto-city-council.html


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## Jenny720

There was not rhyme or reason put into this law. It does show though -how harmful the uneducated can be who put this law into effect.


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## carmspack

in the interview , Richards said that he had been speaking with a member of Toronto's K9 unit.

they are "exempt" but it seems like they had to go to lengths to get this . They said that they want the extra security in situations "where bricks were being thrown at them".

GTA ? I don't know . The spectre of this being province wide was raised . THC and OSPCA


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## Muskeg

I think dog owners need to get together and start fighting for their rights, this is going way to far. Imagine (or you don't have to imagine) what would happen if there was talk of banning certain types of guns... we need to have more leverage as dog owners, than we do, to fight this kind of legislation. Mandatory spay-neuter is another law that I can't believe gets passed in some cities. Maybe the problem is that dog owners are not united on these issues.


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## selzer

Humane organizations, make their living off of people who are convinced they are helping animals. Some of them make a great living off of the pity and stupidity of people. They believe this money is going to help starving and abused animals, when it is actually going to their organization's hierarchy and to lobbyists. The lobbyists, have tons of money to woo politicians with, and the politicians, when they have bills about pets, know exactly where to go when they need information about pet stuff -- these "humane" organizations. 

It's a flawed system here in the states. Can't speak for Canada though, but I expect it is about the same.

All the dog owners, or dog trainers out there, cannot compete with these humane organizations. They are mobilized and have plenty of monetary backing. The rest of us have small breed clubs or training clubs that can barely afford to pay for the next show we will put on.


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## islanddog

I am on the facebook group, the ban is off until further study, September sometime,
repealed, for now.


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## Dalko43

selzer said:


> Humane organizations, make their living off of people who are convinced they are helping animals. Some of them make a great living off of the pity and stupidity of people. They believe this money is going to help starving and abused animals, when it is actually going to their organization's hierarchy and to lobbyists. The lobbyists, have tons of money to woo politicians with, and the politicians, when they have bills about pets, know exactly where to go when they need information about pet stuff -- these "humane" organizations.
> 
> It's a flawed system here in the states. Can't speak for Canada though, but I expect it is about the same.
> 
> All the dog owners, or dog trainers out there, cannot compete with these humane organizations. They are mobilized and have plenty of monetary backing. The rest of us have small breed clubs or training clubs that can barely afford to pay for the next show we will put on.


Humane groups definitely having growing sway in the US, and their agenda goes well beyond pet regulations...they've conducted extensive campaigns against hunting in some states, and have even been successful in having it outlawed it in some cases.

That said, a law forbidding the use of a prong collar would not fly in most parts of the US, humane organizations or not. It is an overreach of government to the nth degree, and most Americans, regardless of political views would have little tolerance for it. I'm glad it has been postponed for now, but the fact that elected politicians in Toronto were that serious about passing such a regulation absolutely boggles my mind...like I said I love Canada, but some of the laws they pass up there are ridiculous (I'm generalizing of course as this varies by province or even areas within a province).


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## selzer

I think they have outlawed fox hunting with dogs, and hunting within city limits even in parks or game reserves, but hunting altogether, that would be crazy. 

Part of me wouldn't mind if they outlawed trapping. 

Yeah, we think that, but there are some crazy laws passed here in the US too. Limits of how many dogs you can have, mandatory spay/neuter -- that's a sucky law some places have enacted, talk about overstepping. I can see them banning e-collars or prong collars in some places whose politics are for more regulations.


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## carmspack

quote ". I'm glad it has been postponed for now, but the fact that elected politicians in Toronto were that serious about passing such a regulation absolutely boggles my mind"

I'll tell you how much it boggles my mind .
I was listening to the Richards and councillor interview and could not believe the childish notions that the councillor had.
He even said , why , if the guide dogs can be trained in harness . What? As in are you kidding .
That harness has absolutely nothing to do with trainer . That is an appliance attached to the dog to assist in the blind person negotiating forward motion, avoiding objects and going through a crowd.
It is not the same harness as all those pets are wearing. Many of them ill fitting and the dog hobbled in motion .

I have mentioned this before , as far back as maybe 15 years or so . There was a Vet-surgeon who tried to ban raw feeding -- oh yes there was , and by-law would have been part of it.

You really have to keep your ear to the ground and your eye to the horizon to know what agendas there are.


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## LBethO

Disturbingly ignorant.


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## duenorth

Toronto city council overturned the ban last night: https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/03/29/toronto-city-council-overturns-ban-on-pronged-dog-collars-choke-chains.html
It looks like they'll now do some actual consultation on collars and training tools.


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## Jenny720

This is good news now is the time for pet owners to speak up about pet owner's rights.


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## carmspack

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-ban-on-pronged-dog-collars-choke-chains.html


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## islanddog

I even got an official response to my emailed letter. It was a bulk "canned" response, but it does mean that every email was officially counted.


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## Dalko43

selzer said:


> I think they have outlawed fox hunting with dogs, and hunting within city limits even in parks or game reserves, but hunting altogether, that would be crazy.


California outlawed all forms of cougar hunting, mostly because of the active campaigning by various AR and humane groups there....the ultimate irony is that the state's wildlife agency still ends up culling ~150 cats annually (sometimes more) for reasons of livestock depredation and public safety (all taxpayer funded of course). 



selzer said:


> Yeah, we think that, but there are some crazy laws passed here in the US too. Limits of how many dogs you can have, mandatory spay/neuter -- that's a sucky law some places have enacted, talk about overstepping. I can see them banning e-collars or prong collars in some places whose politics are for more regulations.


Which US states have mandatory spay/neuter laws? I've heard of limits on the # you can own in some areas, though it doesn't seem to be an overly restrictive or widespread regulation.

I haven't heard any places in the US limiting the use of e-collars or prong collars. I think if a city or state tried that in the US, there'd be a bit of an uproar (and to be fair it looks like there has been a backlash of sorts in Toronto on this issue). It's kind of like the government saying you can't discipline your kids for misbehaving...yeah, there's a point where "discipline" crosses the line and becomes "abuse." But up until that point, a parent should have some leeway for raising and managing his/her kid, and the government has no business sticking its nose into what is essentially family matter. Same applies for raising and training dogs.

A prong collar, and e-collar for that matter, is a tool...it can be abused just like any other tool, but when properly used it is of great use in correcting a dog. Someone who owns a few cats and a 7lb Pomeranian might not appreciate the usefulness of such tools, but someone who has owned and trained an 85lb herding dog, with even moderate drives, will.


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## car2ner

Dalko43 said:


> Which US states have mandatory spay/neuter laws? I've heard of limits on the # you can own in some areas, though it doesn't seem to be an overly restrictive or widespread regulation.
> 
> .


https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx
LA county does. There are exceptions..good reason to do IPO or join a club and earn titles if you want to delay de-sexing. In most states I think animal laws are county by county.


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## selzer

In Ohio, there is a provision on in the Ohio Revised Code to charge more for intact animals for licenses, if the counties want to try that. Our county does not fund a dog shelter, so it is no business of theirs whether my dog is intact or not. Thankfully, they are not pulling that, but lots of other places do. 

And a few do have mandatory spay/neuter by 4 months or 6 months of age. Ok, make it mandatory for pet shelters not to sell an animal to a new owner without spay/neuter, but forcing people to spay/neuter a pet that they purchased, that is beyond reasonableness. And they have done it. 

They have also made it illegal to crop or dock, ears and tails, in places, where even to drive through on your way with a cropped or docked dog, you would have to have evidence that it was done by a vet. 

They make plenty of laws here in the states that are bad laws, that they have no business making. You say, Americans wouldn't stand for it? Well, there are a lot of dog owners in the US, that is true, but until something affects individuals, themselves, you would be surprised what they would stand for. I mean, look, I don't give a darn about prong collars, I don't use them. Do you think I would protest in front of the village hall, and risk being imprisoned when that crap turned into a riot by people just itching to start fights over anything? Nope, I'll go to work like on any other day, and when they pass the law about mandatory spay/neuter, I will start showing my dogs in conformation to avoid the issue. Others will just not say anything about it. What? they can't go door to door to ask for rabies certificates or licenses, are the going to go door to door looking for testicles, and how will they check bitches?

Many of us will do what the people of Canada did. We will call our assemblymen and ask what they were thinking and how fast they can reverse it. And we would probably get our doggy-friends to do likewise. Maybe it would work, maybe not. I think in this case it worked.


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## Dalko43

car2ner said:


> https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx
> LA county does. There are exceptions..good reason to do IPO or join a club and earn titles if you want to delay de-sexing. In most states I think animal laws are county by county.


I think LA and a few other big cities are exceptions to the norm, and those ordinances seem to have pretty extensive exceptions (especially if you're competing with or showing the dog). Those existing regulations seem focused on sterilizing the rescue or pet store pets, which makes sense given the problems they have with strays.


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