# YAY e-collar!!!!



## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

teagan's e-collar came last night! seriously, fastest delivery ever! (thanks lou!)

we have started w/her wearing it, but not using it, to get her used to have the collar on. 

i am SO excited!!!!!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

What kind does Lou carry? I forgot to look, I use a Dogtra


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i think he carries dogtra and tritronics. i got a dogtra 280NCP (LCD on the transmitter!). 

....if i may say so, teagan looks pretty good with it on (course, she always looks good







)

i'm so excited to actually start using it! 

the best thing too, was in terms of taxes (being crossborder and all), i only had to pay $6.35!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I think that is the one I have for Ava, I put it on every morning and she wears it until bed time....she is getting better and better all the time, as a matter of fact I was out working with her the other day, she was very responsive, it wasnt until I got back inside that I realized and had not even turned the thing on that morning!!! I kicked myself, but she was so good.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Betsy as a matter of fact I was out working with her the other day, she was very responsive, it wasnt until I got back inside that I realized and had not even turned the thing on that morning!!! I kicked myself, but she was so good.


that's great! she's really learning then. i'm really excited to train teagan w/this as well as to work on her aggression issues. 










i never thought i'd be so excited about a piece of training equipment


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

All I can say is dont rush it, and make sure you fit it properly as well and no how to set the correct stim level. Lou is a great resource. I had to get over feeling the collar was too tight....it isnt but it was hard...


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

yeah, i read to have them wear it anywhere from 4-6 weeks before you start actually using it. so i'm sticking to that, despite temptation.

lou's articles on crittering have really made me feel better about using this to work on her aggression issues. he was really nice and spoke to me too.

yeah, i didn't want it to slide, actually though, it's one of our better collars in terms of how exacting the tightening is. i thought i'd have to get a cinch-it collar to be exact, but i'm pleased w/the collar that came from dogtra.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

yeah, its a good quality....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

So sad thta you feel you have to use an e-collar. I hope you have tried other options first. Just MHO.....


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

actually, yes, thank you, i have used other methods first. there is nothing sad about using an e-collar with her. 

on the contrary, i think this will help her a great deal and free her from other constraints (like muzzling and being always tethered to me outside). 

i love my dogs very much, and i love teagan very much, but i'm also realistic about her level of aggression and personality. since you know neither, please don't say it's sad if you don't know her or the situation. that's just rude.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

jarn, please keep in mind at all times when you use this collar that it is based on making a dog want to avoid the sensation/shock/pain (whatever you want to call it). Seeing you celebrate the idea that you're going to use a shock collar is kind of off-putting to a lot of people, because this is a technique that is not something pleasant to the dog. It would be easier to see you post "well, I have the collar and I'm going to do all correct sequences to make this work properly - wish this wasn't necessary, but I've tried everything I possibly could and this is the next step".

I have a shock collar, I've used the collar, and I can't say that I've ever felt good about it. It was something that I went to when the other methods didn't supply enough for this particular dog to overcome other temptations during off-leash play. I have kept in mind at all times that I'm doing something to my dog that isn't pleasant and that helps keep me from over-using the collar (which unfortunately happens way too often, I think). 

By the way, I hope you are seriously studying proper techniques. I personally would not use a shock collar for aggression issues because of the high possibility that the dog will associate the wrong things with the shock (which I have personally seen happen). I know that you're getting help by email or phone, but if you're not really well-educated in dog behavior. and how to read your dog and provide properly timed corrections you could actually make your dog worse. You've got a five year old dog with (evidently) an established habit and a concentrated course of behavior modification would probably be a much safer way of dealing with this. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest It would be easier to see you post "well, I have the collar and I'm going to do all correct sequences to make this work properly - wish this wasn't necessary, but I've tried everything I possibly could and this is the next step".


i have posted elsewhere with questions about the ecollar and whether it was best for teagan, so i really didn't feel the need to repeat. 

why shouldn't i celebrate finding a tool, that, used properly, could change her life? that's incredibly positive. 

of course i am studying heavily how to properly use the collar. just as i will be going to a trainer initially to help me get started. 

honestly - if there is a concern, i'd rather someone raise that concern w/me, instead of posting sanctimonious comments about how they feel sorry for my dog. teagan needs no pity.

what WOULD be sad is if i were so close minded i dismissed tools out of hand.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

Jarn please ignore the post of closed minded individuals. I’m an E-collar trainer in NJ. Not only have I trained my dog successfully on the collar but have trained well over a hundred client dogs. Used properly the collar can be used to correct aggression. Again I can speak from experience on this, as Blue was dog aggressive when I brought him into my home. Now he lives PEACEFULLY with 5 other dogs and a cat. You will always find people who think their way is the only way to go and god forbid you don’t agree. I’ve been called lazy and told my dogs are abused because I use the E-collar. Which is all BS. 

I will say that I hope you can find a trainer to help you with the E-collar. I know you have been in contact with Lou. He is great! 


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks lish









....honestly - why am i excited about this? i'm not excited about pushing a button, i'm excited about giving teagan more space/freedom in her life. 

i have been talking to lou, who has been great, i have been reading, and i've also been in touch w/the guy who came to assess teagan after the first time she bit me - who was fantastic. he showed me a bunch of things i could do to work on establishing leadership/deal w/her dominance issues (and no, i don't think she's a true dominant dog, but she would fall into the 'alpha wanna-be' 'testy, status-seeking dog' categories), as she had some serious dominance issues when i got her. he's also so excited for me, and for teagan - he's going to be coming to help out, but - he knows teagan, he assessed her, and he thinks this is going to be such a good tool for her. he's a professional who has seen how aggressive she is, how strong her drive to kill is, he was actually taken aback by it. i honestly would feel insane not to use corrective measures on that behaviour. 'oh well, she just killed mitch' 'oh well, she just killed nikolai' 'oh well, she just ripped the throat out of that dog' ....come on. 

i also resent that buying an e-collar and using it somehow turns me into someone who likes to hurt my dogs. i like using positive reinforcement in training. i have FIRED trainers who were supposed to be helping me with luc's aggression b/c they told me to get physical with him - i know my dogs, and i know their personalities, and i will always do what is right for them.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest It would be easier to see you post "well, I have the collar and I'm going to do all correct sequences to make this work properly - wish this wasn't necessary, but I've tried everything I possibly could and this is the next step".
> ...


Thought that is what I was doing?







You posted the joyful use of the tool on public forum why can't others post distaste of the tool on public forum? I have used an e-collar but I sure don't care for them and it is not a line of defense I take lightly and especially not for aggression. I don't always agree with Melanie either but I do on this one.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

that's how it came across to me, i apologize if i've mistaken your intent then. i do respect that you don't like using them.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> 
> 
> I have used an e-collar but I sure don't care for them and it is not a line of defense I take lightly and especially not for aggression. I don't always agree with Melanie either but I do on this one.


There is nothing wrong with using an E-collar for aggression. Used correctly it can be a great tool for correcting aggression.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I just want to clarify though-it's not so that an aggressive dog can be considered "safe" off lead right?

Like if I had one of my dogs out on an e-collar and someone came up to them-that person would still not be safe from my dog. Unless it had a taser on it...(and that part is a joke-I realize they aren't tasers)


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

oh no, not at all. 

i've considered 'would i be able to let teagan off-lead hiking, eventually?' but on considering it, aren't actually comfortable with it. you never know who or what is around the bend. i hike w/luc on leash for that very reason. (edit: and luc does not have aggression issues....he was territorial and had some fear issues when i first got him, but those have been resolved for a very long time, and were never serious) 

it would nice to be able to go to public places with her not muzzled, or maybe have the cats out at the same time as her and she not be muzzled/tethered. 

honestly, based on what i've seen w/teagan, i will never trust her around the small animals - but i'd like to improve her behaviour there - and i don't plan to trust her off-leash, around dogs or people. i would like to be able to have her near other dogs (that aren't luc), etc. i consider luc socialized now w/dogs (he wasn't when i got him) - he doesn't play with them or anything, but he can stay behaved and appropriate at my side when other dogs are near. i'd love that for teagan.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Kathy and Melanie,

There is a lot of history behind her one dog Teagan. She has put a tremendous amount of time into both her dogs, and corrected all issues in Luc, and gotten very far with Teagan without the e-collar. This decision was not made lightly on a whim. She consulted one of the top e-collar trainers of strong dogs in the country (Lou Castle) to ensure she understood how to train effectively and humanely without just "shocking" the dog. 

Yes, misusing a prong, chain, choke, fur saver, e-collar, halti or flat collar for that matter as torture devices is sad. Using them properly and positively (and YES, this can be done with an e-collar) with minimal stimulation in order to further a strong dog's training in effort to offer more freedom is wonderful. I equate assuming that's sad to PETA feeling it's sad that dogs are kept in a human home as pets. They should run free, or it's sad.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I am EXCITED to start my 5 yr old boxer on the e collar. I got the dvd from Leerburg site and Ed Fawley's methods seem VERY humane to me.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks john, i really appreciate that









jenn

edit: i don't know if you saw, teagan tried to bite me wednesday night - she went for me when i tried to take her out of the vestibule (i was leaving the house w/a friend). she then glared at me, i glared at her, and then we broke off and i removed her. (it was annoying b/c we've been doing so much better in terms of leadership and pack structure). i was saying, at least my reflexes have really improved since i got her. i could rent teagan out to people, '4 months to a Faster You!'. heh.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Michelle,

You know that I'm not a Leerburg basher, but check out http://www.loucastle.com. He is a better resource on e-collar training than Ed by far.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I tried and maybe I am wrong but they have some basic fundemental differences.
For instance Ed says to nick, not continuous. Whereas Lou wants continuous stim until the dog gives the desired behavior. The nick seems like it would be an easier learning curve.

My boxer, although dominent, alpha type, is very soft on corrections. I think she might shut down with Lou's method.

I did not talk to Lou or read the entire site. After I felt uneasy with the basic starting point. I did like the idea of trying it on yoursel first.

I am still researching methods and as yet just randomly putting the collar on and off the dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Michelle, 

my understanding of the way Lou uses the ecollar, is to set it at the lowest possible stim level that the dog will feel. This is barely more than a tickle, nothing that would cause pain.

To me, the continuous stim makes more sense, because as soon as the dog does as you ask, the stim stops. This means that in the dog's mind, he feels that he has power and control over the stim. He can choose a course of action that will give him the desired outcome (i.e. the stim stops). So the training is positive: the dog does something RIGHT, and gets rewarded (stim stops).

I think just a nick, is more like a prong collar correction. It would have to be at a higher setting than the minimum setting for the dog to feel it. So this would be more of a negative way of training:
the dog does something WRONG, and gets punished. 

This is just my interpretation of the different techniques. I have never used an ecollar, but have been thinking about it. 

To my way of thinking, a nick - correction - seems more logical. But if I try to put myself in my dog's frame of mind, I think that the low, continuous stim would make for faster, easier, more rewarding learning.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mjb03I tried and maybe I am wrong but they have some basic fundemental differences.


Yes, we do. Keep in mind that Mr. Frawley is someone who brags of hitting a dog in the head with a shovel THREE TIMES for fence fighting. No one was in danger, neither dog nor human; they were just making some noise, yet he thinks that this is OK. I happen to disagree. 

You'll find that Mr. Frawley uses far higher levels of stim than I do. On fact on his video when he's showing how to find the dog's working level of stim; at one point the dog shows that he's feeling it. He says (to the effect) "Some people work at this level." (He may be referring to me) he continues, "But I like to go higher." He then proceeds to go to a level where the dog's head jerks sharply when he presses the button. That's waaaaaay to high for me. 

Additionally Mr. Frawley is one of those folks who thinks that the dog must FIRST be trained with some other method and ONLY then can the Ecollar be used to proof those behaviors. He's quite wrong as I've proven frequently. I use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors all the time. 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 For instance Ed says to nick, not continuous. Whereas Lou wants continuous stim until the dog gives the desired behavior. The nick seems like it would be an easier learning curve.


Actually the nick or tapping is more aversive to most dogs. But it has problems of timing. As to the first. If I were to place my hand on your shoulder lightly it wouldn't bother you. But if I started tapping you on the shoulder, soon you'd want to smack me one because it would become very bothersome. 

As to the timing. With an Ecollar when it stops, is just as important as when it starts. When you're tapping the dog has to wait for a short time after it actually stops to realize it. When it's on continuous, the dog knows immediately the instant that it stops. This is easier to demonstrate by standing behind someone and tapping them on the shoulder. Ask them to raise their hand when the tapping stops. Then try the same thing by resting your hand on their shoulder. You'll notice that it takes them a second or so before they realize that the tapping has stopped but they'll be able to tell immediately when you lift the pressure of your hand from them. 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 My boxer, although dominent, alpha type, is very soft on corrections. I think she might shut down with Lou's method.


I doubt it. I've never had a dog shut down. I've had people who tell me that their dogs have and then I suggest that they use the nick mode (which gives a much faster, and therefore less intense, stim than does tapping). 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 I did not talk to Lou or read the entire site. After I felt uneasy with the basic starting point.


What was it that made you "uneasy?"



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 I did like the idea of trying it on yoursel first.


I have all my private clients feel the stim before we start to work. I recommend that everyone who's going to use an Ecollar try it on themselves first. It will give them some idea of how to find their own dog's working level. I also advocate that after you find that on yourself, that you continue to increase the stim level so you'll have some idea of the rate with which the discomfort increases as you turn the dial. I want people to know what it feels like when the stim level is too high to that they'll be reticent to do that to their dogs.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaidmy understanding of the way Lou uses the ecollar, is to set it at the lowest possible stim level that the dog will feel. This is barely more than a tickle, nothing that would cause pain.


I'm not fond of calling the stim a "tickle" as some may misinterpret that to think that the dog likes it, as some people like tickling. It's meant to be a low level of discomfort but not painful. I don't like to mislead. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid To me, the continuous stim makes more sense, because as soon as the dog does as you ask, the stim stops. This means that in the dog's mind, he feels that he has power and control over the stim. He can choose a course of action that will give him the desired outcome (i.e. the stim stops). So the training is positive: the dog does something RIGHT, and gets rewarded (stim stops).


VERY GOOD! 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid I think just a nick, is more like a prong collar correction. It would have to be at a higher setting than the minimum setting for the dog to feel it. So this would be more of a negative way of training:
> the dog does something WRONG, and gets punished.


The way that Mr. Frawley uses the tool, that's all it is. A punishment for disobeying the command. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid This is just my interpretation of the different techniques. I have never used an ecollar, but have been thinking about it.


Well you got it very well! 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid To my way of thinking, a nick - correction - seems more logical. But if I try to put myself in my dog's frame of mind, I think that the low, continuous stim would make for faster, easier, more rewarding learning.


I've tried all three, nicking, tapping and continuous. For me continuous works best. But others like their method.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Castlemaidmy understanding of the way Lou uses the ecollar, is to set it at the lowest possible stim level that the dog will feel. This is barely more than a tickle, nothing that would cause pain.
> ...


Well, I just posted on the other thread a similar response to my understanding of ecollar training and called the stim a "tickle". Sorry! Don't want to spread inaccuracies. Might need to head on back and do some damage control. 

Thanks for the feedback to my post!


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## NCSFK9 (Oct 9, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidWell, I just posted on the other thread a similar response to my understanding of ecollar training and called the stim a "tickle". Sorry! Don't want to spread inaccuracies. Might need to head on back and do some damage control.


I recently purchased the Dogtra 1900NCP and it's working wonderfuly. I've tested it on myself just to see what it was like and it seems to tense up the muscles in the area it's applied to. I've heard it compared to a tens unit. Not painful, but not comfortable either.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Thank you Lou for taking the time to respond. EVERYONE speaks so highly about you that I took the time to read your whole site. (always a plus before one critisizes).

With such things as the recall. Do you stop the stim when the dog stats to return or after the return is accomplished.

I have only recently done away with the old belief that e collar (shock) collars were inhumane. I definately see where it can be a useful tool but I am beginning to think I might need a professional to get me started.

Again thank you for the responce to my questions.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mjb03Thank you Lou for taking the time to respond.


Michelle it's truly my pleasure. This forum, except for a VERY few individuals, is quite educated and enlightened about Ecollars. 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 EVERYONE speaks so highly about you


Well … I wish that was true. There are a few that don't seem to like me very much. But I've learned to live with that. 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 that I took the time to read your whole site. (always a plus before one critisizes).
> 
> With such things as the recall. Do you stop the stim when the dog stats to return or after the return is accomplished.


I only stim the dog during his first few steps towards me. This lasts for about a second or so. Keep in mind that we're working on the basics at this point. At first I just want the dog to stop what he's doing and come towards me. After the foundation has been laid the dog learns that it ALSO means "stay with me as I move about." This soon becomes loose leash (and then no leash) walking. I'm not teaching heeling at this point, just the recall. 

Also remember that this command at this point does not mean come to me and sit in front of me. It's just "come towards me." The dog at this stage needs a clear sign that he's doing the right thing. If you were to stim all the way in, it would not be as clear and it would take much longer for the dog to be rewarded by the shutting off of the stim. 

Doing it this way, stopping the stim as soon as the dog is moving towards you, gives him a quicker "black and white." 

This also allows me to, when distance work is introduced to re-stim the dog if he's distracted and veers off or he slows down. If I was stimming the dog all the way in, I couldn't do that. An advanced trainer in that situation could turn the stim up a bit, but at this stage with most owners, that's too advanced. 

Stimming the dog "all the way in" is an advanced movement and I rarely do it. If you stim the dog momentarily for the minor infractions (veering off or slowing down) it's not necessary. For this, after the basic work is done I tap on the continuous button. For me the nick doesn't work well with most dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: mjb03 I have only recently done away with the old belief that e collar (shock) collars were inhumane. I definately see where it can be a useful tool but I am beginning to think I might need a professional to get me started.


Lots of people want a pro with them when they start. Many people can find someone to work with but some can't. I believe that anyone who can read and follow instructions can do this without help. I also know that some people "choke up" in the presence of a trainer and do better on their own.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

mjb03 asked:



> Quote: With such things as the recall. Do you stop the stim when the dog stats to return or after the return is accomplished.


And from Lou's site: 


> Quote: As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4–5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button. DO NOT stim him all the way in to you!


BUT the main thing about your question is it again shows the 'problem' many of us have with the e-collar. Though it seems like it would be easy to use (hey, how hard is it to push a button?). To do it PROPERLY, it really really really helps to have an instructor right by our sides when we start so when we forget something that may seem minor, they can instantly assist us and fix us before we confuse our dogs.

I always read read read (here's the link from Lou's site about Teaching the Recall ) AND also use a trainer with the same methods. Crazy then how fast both the dog and I learn.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

i stopped reading when i read the first reply that had to do with telling JARN that it was sad she had to resort to an e-collar...im so sick of reading







like that...it makes it no fun to post threads when u have every know-it-all trying to push there point and make themselves sound right....jarn-if u have to resort to the e-collar..do what u gotta do.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Never thought I was a know it all..... just had a small problem with someone who seemed over joyed at using an aversive device. Now aversives have a place but I have a problem when someone is joyful about them......


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i've already made it clear i'm joyful at the thought of teagan not having to be so constrained in her life, at the thought of being able to go places with her without the muzzle, etc, and other things. 

and as i have already made it clear, i'm done with responding to that.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Jarn, I know exactly how you feel, I can now take Ava places I could never go before, even for a long down stay outside a petstore!!! unbelievable! And she watches me, alert and at the edge of her seat waitng for what I will ask next, training is fun again, for both of us.........She get praised almost constantly now...I really wish you luck and since your heart is in the right place I know you will succeed.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks betsy.









it's great to know how positive it's been for you. i am so excited for teagan to have new opportunities in life!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Jarn, my response was to Steve. It seems he did not chose to read the whole thread that explained your situation more clearly. It also aided my understanding even tho the thread title (as someone else pointed out as well) seemed to indicate that you were happy about the collar itself and not the opportunity it would open for Teagan. 

I do hope it works well for you.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks kathy.

teagan's still just wearing the collar to get used to it....i've been using it on my knee (like i said elsewhere, why not, how much do you pay in physio for stim work) and playing with all the different buttons, at different levels, as well as testing it on my neck - it's actually given me really good insight into what the collar does and feels like. i really feel like this will be something i can use positively with teagan and that it can work where other measures, have, unfortunately, failed.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest It would be easier to see you post "well, I have the collar and I'm going to do all correct sequences to make this work properly - wish this wasn't necessary, but I've tried everything I possibly could and this is the next step".
> ...


Bravo Jarn....very well stated. Glad to see you will not be brow beat







Good luck with your training adventure. Sounds like your doing everything properly. Continue to listen to Lou!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Michelle,

What you will find when using the continuous is that the stim level is set at an even lower level than the nic. For example, if I use nic with my dog at 20 then I can lower the stim level to 10-15 on continuous because with one push of the button, the dog gets 3-8 taps vs the single tap on nic.

From a human stand point, a person trying to get my attention will do so much faster by tapping me on the shoulder several times verses a single tap that I might happen to miss if my attention is truely focused elsewhere.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

honestly - part of this - i can see what kathy is saying about the title of the thread - but it would never even occur to me someone would think that the adversive aspect of something is what would be celebrated!


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWJarn, my response was to Steve. It seems he did not chose to read the whole thread that explained your situation more clearly. It also aided my understanding even tho the thread title (as someone else pointed out as well) seemed to indicate that you were happy about the collar itself and not the opportunity it would open for Teagan.
> 
> I do hope it works well for you.


i chose not to read the whole thread because i already knew where it was going..yea an e-collar sounds mean and cruel but its a tool just like a prong collar. heck when u look at a prong it looks like something outa med-evil times but when seen as a tool and not a punishment..its a totally different story

and i fealt it was rude for u to make it sound like jarn didnt know what she was doing..pretty much putting jarn and everybody else on defense


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Hey Steve??? How many dogs have you had?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let's stay on topic and away from personal attacks. Kathy and Jarn have already settled their misunderstanding so no other comments are needed from others. 

Thank you,

Admin

********


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: jarni think he carries dogtra and tritronics. i got a dogtra 280NCP (LCD on the transmitter!).


I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE NEW 280NCP. I recently purchased the 282 (two dog unit) and like the LCD screen. Not real fond of having to turn the transmitter on though. My 1804 did not require the transmitter to be activated but then it also did not have LCD or battery level indicator









Ups and downs on both sides. Also shame that the 1800 series from Dogtra is the only collar set that allows for control of up to 4 dogs with one transmitter. I would LOVE to see the 280 series come out with a multi dog unit for more than just 2 dogs!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i like having to turn the transmitter on! lessens the chance of me hitting something by accident when i think it's off









(the first time i tried it, on my hand, i thought, i wonder what the full nick (127) would feel like! WOW!)


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

keeps you honest with the collar to know the different stim levels, I think, by the way, DONT forget to turn it on......I did that once. and was lucky she was pretty automatic by that point, but I am having to go back several steps now though.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i actually missed that the first time i tried to use it on me....i was standing there muttering 'this stupid thing doesn't work! i charged it!' and then i noticed i'd missed the turning on part....


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

yep....it doesnt work if its not on......LOL, I test using vibrate button.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Jarn
I did the same thing. LOL. It does work better turned on.

The whole thing is starting to make sence.
I reread Lou's site again. I will probably be back with some more questions before I begin but I do now thin I like Lou's ideas better than Ed's dvd. I have gone through both twice.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TracieFrom a human stand point, a person trying to get my attention will do so much faster by tapping me on the shoulder several times verses a single tap that I might happen to miss if my attention is truely focused elsewhere.


If you're using the Ecollar as most people do, in place of a leash, this is true. Most training done with Ecollar has the dog being trained with some other method first so he knows the commands, and then the Ecollar is only used to proof those commands. The tap from an Ecollar replaces the pop for a leash when the dog doesn't comply. 

My method is a bit different. I don't care if the dog knows the behaviors or not, I train as if he didn't. The recall is taught with the continuous mode. I press the button and, at the same time pull the dog towards me. As soon as he's moving affirmatively towards me, (less than two seconds) the button is released. Doing it this way has both ends of the button, the press AND the release becoming very important. The press and the relaise are equally important. 

This provides more information to the dog than using it as an invisible leash, merely tapping when he's not complied is like a tap on the shoulder, reminding him that he has to do something. Doing it my way the dog comes to learn that when the stim starts they've done something wrong and that when it stops they've completed the movement. 

Some people use the tap with my method. The problem with that is that the message isn't as clear. We know that timing is important in dog training. With either the tap or the continuous, it's clear to the dog when the stim starts. But when it stops is not as clear with tapping as it is with continuous. 

Tapping often gets faster results for a couple of reasons, one is the same reason that you say that it gets your attention better than someone just resting their hand on your shoulder. That means it's more aversive, there's more compulsion there. Another is that most people who use tapping use higher levels of stim and that's REALLY more aversive. Dog learn faster because they're more invested in making the stim stop, it's more uncomfortable. 

But I prefer to stay at the lowest level of stim that the dogs can feel. Especially with search dogs, dogs that use their noses to find things, I think it's better in the long run. 

Just another way to get things done.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

How young can you start the dogs? I mainly got it for my five year old boxer but in the future would like to start with my shepherd.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Manufacturer guidelines say 6 months. I have found it depends on the dog and have seen them started as early as 4 months.


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## WISLADY (Apr 9, 2007)

I have an 11 month old GSD in training for my personal Service Dog. I have been using the e collar for about a month now, and am very pleased with it. 

For us older, or physically challenged owners, the e collar is a tremendous assist to ehance the basic training. 

I was shown the use of the collar from Robin MacFarlane (That's My Dog) of Wisconsin.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

Robin is a great trainer. I've had the experience to attend a few of her seminars.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

How is the training going with Robin? Have you had any other sessions with her since you last e-mailed me?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yesterday I was hiking with my dog in a desert and saw two some kind of bird dogs running around and a family with a child walking towards us. Here it comes I though since Yana is a fearful dog and those interactions with a couple of loose dogs can turn out very stressful for us. 

Well, dogs started running full speed towards us and the guy said a word and the dogs stopped on their tracks, turned towards him and completely forgot about us. I couldn't believe my eyes and then I've noticed an e-collars on their necks and a remote in guy's hand. I was impressed, honestly. I'm just wondering if the dogs would listen to him like this without the collars. It was a second time when I saw an e-collar in action and it was amazing. The first time I've seen a trainer using it and the dog actually yelped and I hated it.


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## WISLADY (Apr 9, 2007)

Tracie, 

The training was amazing...I was totally a believer after 15 minutes!! Robin and her staff are wonderful.

I have communicated quite a bit with email, and might have another private session later if I need it.

My only regret.....waiting so long to use it.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

If the dog is yelping it is too high a setting.....my dog barely twitches an ear on the setting I use for training sessions. Sometimes they do yelp from suprise though....kind of like if someone snuck up behind you and yelled. but that should be the rare occaision.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07 I was impressed, honestly. I'm just wondering if the dogs would listen to him like this without the collars. It was a second time when I saw an e-collar in action and it was amazing. The first time I've seen a trainer using it and the dog actually yelped and I hated it.


All of my dogs listen the same way with or without their collars on.







And it sounds like the trainer had the setting too high for the dog.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07 I'm just wondering if the dogs would listen to him like this without the collars. It was a second time when I saw an e-collar in action and it was amazing. The first time I've seen a trainer using it and the dog actually yelped and I hated it.


If the guy has been consistant with his training, then YES the dogs would respond just like that without the collars. I have tested this over and over again with my own dogs and with collars or without them, my dogs do respond to each and every command I give.

As for the dog yipping two things could have happened....first the stim WAS too high, or second it was a green dog that was startled. Some dogs are over-reactive and if startled will yip in surprise just like a startled human may jump or even scream when startled.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: WISLADYTracie,
> 
> The training was amazing...I was totally a believer after 15 minutes!! Robin and her staff are wonderful.
> 
> ...


Great! I knew you would not be disappointed







I wanted to touch base to see if you had had any more lessons with Robin.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Obviously, if you jolt your dog with a few volts it will obey. Anyone can buy an E-Collar, give the dog a few jolts, achieve good results and brag about it.

But maybe it is time for some of you to put your selves on the other end of the lease.

Does the dog respect you more, become more loyal, etc. Absolutely not.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Timber that's a pretty sweeping statement. When you use an e-collar properly with minimal stimulation you're not shocking the crap out of a dog. It's no worse than a prong for sure, and can be better because your timing can be better and therefore your communication with the dog crystal clear. In this case if it means that my dog gets to have much more freedom and fun and get to go everywhere with me because of the level of training he has then yes he's more loyal and respects me... because I do not abuse him. I have put myself on the other end of the e-collar.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Timber, I know you love your animals, I love mine as well and only want a great relationship both ways, and as you say, the other end of the leash is an important aspect, great book by the way. One thing about communicating with our dogs is our lack of clarity in letting them know exactly what we want. An e-collar, if used properly provides great timing (gently! I want to emphasize that). You may never choose to use an e-collar and that is fine, but my experience has deffinately been postive, My dog still watches me with that alert adoring look, she is always ready for my next request and is also always ready for that next romp and play. I have also put myself on the other end of the leash, my responsiblity to my dog is to find an effective means to communicate my wishes. Now, not all situations in my opinion call for an e-collar. When working with groups of dogs I do not use it, only because her level of excitement puts her working stim level higher that I wish to use. She is still young and we can work on that with other means until she becomes more even in all situations. As far as loyalty and respect? It HAS improved but only because our communication has.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

As a moderator, just want to thank everyone for continuing to keep this thread 'polite' and useful as a learning guide for everyone.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

John,

it is a sweeping statement because I think the majority of folks that use an E-Collar do so for a quick fix. In my opinion the E-Collar is an easy training method and I am concerned far too many people will buy the collar, shock the dog, and think they are great trainers. 

I could quote numerous trainers and breeders who do not believe in using an E-Collar, and medical studies that have concluded the use of an E-Collar shocks a dfferent part of the dog's brain, then a pronged collar.

Nonetheless, I do believe there are situations in which using an E-Collar (nick only) can be needed and effective. However, my biggest concern is it is an easy out and most people will abuse it and frankly ruin their dog.

As you know I posted an article about my dog, Timber's aggressive behavior in some situations, and your reply was quite helpful. You never mentioned using an E-Collar and I agree 100 percent. 

I will work with Timber, without an E-Collar.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Timber1, you need to realize that the E-Collar is nothing more than a training tool. Any training tool can be made abusive if the trainer wants to make it that way. I can make a prong collar, martingale or flat collar into an abusive tool, do I NO, but I know how to. There is no difference between a prong collar and E-Collar if a handler wants to turn it into something to punish or abuse a dog. 

You will see that all members on this board who use E-collars or train people how to use an E-collar always advise people to find a qualified trainer to learn from. Honestly I think they should do the same with the prong collar.

Why do you say that the E-Collar is just the easy way out, people could say the same thing about a prong collar, but you have no problem using a prong collar on Timber.


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## WISLADY (Apr 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeAs a moderator, just want to thank everyone for continuing to keep this thread 'polite' and useful as a learning guide for everyone.



Thank you, I agree. 

For many of us, the e collar is a great tool to be used along with other methods of training. I believe most of us love our dogs enough to be informed consumers, including making sure we have the proper training from people with experience. Of course it is important that the e collar be used correctly and humanely, just as any other tool, such as a prong.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

What studies show that the e collars are detrimental to the dogs brain.
Timber1 please direct me in that direction. I definately would like to read scientific studies.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I could quote numerous trainers and breeders who do not believe in using an E-Collar, and medical studies that have concluded the use of an E-Collar shocks a dfferent part of the dog's brain, then a pronged collar.



You will always find someone that does not like to use a certain training tool. For me it is head halters, choke chains and prong collars. With the exception of the head halter, I have tried choke chains, prong collars and e-collars on myself. I want to know EXACTLY what my dog may be feeling. I perfer the e-collar. I did not like the yank from the choke chain, I certainly did not like the prong collar. I dont care what anyone says, for me that blasted prong collar hurt a sight more than the e-collar. I can only imagine what a head halter feels like...just imagine if every time you went to open your mouth, something attached to your head shut your mouth.....I like to talk...forget the headhalter on me...I would swell up like a balloon and POP LOL

On to the medical study post...please take a little time to visit this link http://www.trainmypet.net/documents/white_paper.pdf
and read the entire paper. For as many medical studies that say e-collars scramble a dogs brains, there are just as many that state otherwise







with some going so far as to say that e-collars are probably the most gentle training tool for the dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1John,
> 
> it is a sweeping statement because I think the majority of folks that use an E-Collar do so for a quick fix. In my opinion the E-Collar is an easy training method and I am concerned far too many people will buy the collar, shock the dog, and think they are great trainers.
> 
> Nonetheless, I do believe there are situations in which using an E-Collar (nick only) can be needed and effective. However, my biggest concern is it is an easy out and most people will abuse it and frankly ruin their dog.


Well, people with that reason and attitude using an e-collar are misinformed. It is not a quick fix for anything, and definitely an advanced level training tool. I will not ever try and tell you that e-collars are not abused, but don't let that condemn the tool. The general population out there is stupid. Sorry, it is what it is. Any e-collar trainers on this board always strongly suggest working with an experienced trainer if people want to use one. In addition, it's not just the "nick" button that is used humanely and effectively. The continuous setting is not abusive when used properly at the right level. The setting is the equivalent to a collar tug, there should be no visual "jump" from the dog and certainly no verbal reaction.


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## Rugs (Jul 14, 2004)

Seems like there are a lot of folks using e-collars. Are you using them for basic training? Or are they being used on a dog with real issues? The reason I'm asking is because the poster that has the Boxer, said that although she was an alpha, she was very soft when it came to corrections. Why would you need a e-collar in that situation? 

I think it's a wonderful tool, if used for the right reasons and as a last resort. But if your zapping Fido because you want him to sit, stay or leave it then the owner needs training not the dog.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD The general population out there is stupid. Sorry, it is what it is. Any e-collar trainers on this board always strongly suggest working with an experienced trainer if people want to use one.











I couldn't agree with you more.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Rugs I think it's a wonderful tool, if used for the right reasons and as a last resort. But if your zapping Fido because you want him to sit, stay or leave it then the owner needs training not the dog.



I used an E-collar to train all 6 of my dogs. For basic as well as advanced obedience. Was it a last resort? Heck no. I found it to be one of the gentlest methods out there. I've also used it on problem dogs and have gotten wonderful results.

As Val said earlier, its just a training tool. And like any other training tools out there it can be used in a abusive way. Just as flat collars, choke chains, and prong.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I keep seeing the statement come up "as a last resort" alot in reguards to e-collars. Honestly, I do not believe that an e-collar is a tool of last resort nor should it be. It just happens to be that for many of us because of the lack of understanding in its proper use. I was one of those people that tried everything before getting to that point of trying something outside both my experienc and even my comfort level at the time. An e-collar, in my opinion is much more difficult to use in behavior issues in the same way a prong may not be the choice with behavior issues. I use neither if I can help it for aggression or over excitement, shape current behavior yes, corrections not so much. Enforcing a command is different animal alltogether, and it is not really that different to enforce a recall with a leash as it is with an e-collar but you have taken the visible leash off. Unfortunately, many of your concerns regarding e-collars are regarding the use of this device by uneducated everyday people have been highly publicized, those owners have gotten to this point because they didnt know the proper way to train a dog OR because everything they had known before didnt work. Now some are trying something in desperation...not a good way to begin. No one on here believes that an e-collar is the right tool for every training need, and every dog. A soft dog will have just as positive an experience with an e-collar as it would with a leash, some would say even more so. But every dog is also different, some will have great success with aggression and chasing, I'm not that good of a trainer yet to get to my dog when she is at that edge of awareness that is needed for this kind of training. All of this really is a matter of understanding our OWN limitations and shortcomings in training and communicating with our dogs as well as really understanding the proper use of a training tool.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

For the record I don't use the ecollar as a regular part of my schutzhund training. I did use it for several sessions (I borrowed one) with someone who knew what they were doing--we targeted a specific behavior. Nandi wore the collar for several sessions afterward. The behvior was essentially gone. I was unnerved by using the ecollar, but it worked. I would use it again if I felt it best for our training goals, however nothing replaces good foundation training. I wouldn't be as receptive to the ecollar if I didn't have a decent working relationship with Nandi. I like the results I am getting so far with my dog. My unease with the collar has to do with myself--being clear and fair what i am asking my Dog to do. As a novice handler I do not trust my skills. Like Timber1 I have concerns about the general public buying them and using them willy nilly and ruining a bond with the dog (choke and prongs, too). So again I cannot emphasize enough the importance of a good foundation, clear relationship and understanding a dog's learning..

I have started to read some of Mr. Castle's articles and it does make sense to me.


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