# 12 Month Old DDR/Czech Male Fight Drive and Pack Order



## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

A few of y'all may remember my thread about my pup running from an angry mam deer. We got past that as he shows no fear at all of the deer yet he trained easily not to chase them. 

New issue/question. He is now 12 months and about 75 lbs. My daughter's 5-6 year old male mix from a GSD rescue is currently staying with us. They are big buddies and get along great. A few weeks ago her dog took possession of my dogs ball and went under the deck. Her dog growled and my dog came out cowering. Ugh. Now today I threw the ball in the direction of her dog. He didn't see it and it startled him and my pup was on the ball immediately and slammed into her dog who proceeded to grab my pup by the neck and pin him to the ground growling viciously. My pup just went limp and laid there.

Maybe I am expecting too much out of him. I just expected there to be a little fight drive there. You know, fight back but lose to the older dog until it is his day to take over the alpha dog role.

Is it just because he is young? I have seen young dogs not cower to older ones. What's his deal? I don't want him to maul every dog he sees but I also don't want the big bad dark sable DDR/Czech male that cowers from other dogs.

Opinions?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

deference to age .

"her dog who proceeded to grab my pup by the neck and pin him to the ground growling viciously. My pup just went limp and laid there."
"I just expected there to be a little fight drive there. You know, fight back but lose to the older dog until it is his day to take over the alpha dog role."

you aren't being fair to your dog. 
This is his home and territory . Some street wise mature (6yr) dog comes onto his turf and that dog pulls rank , and you aren't helping the situation .


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

How am I not being fair to my dog or helping the situation? I didn't do anything but observe.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

By putting him in a position to get beat up by another dog...by not making sure that he does not get hurt, intimidated or in any way damaged by this older dog.

Lee


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

So I am supposed to go kick the other dog in the face?

There has not been a real fight yet. Just a showing of dominance.

So, letting my daughters dog stay with us is putting my dog in a position to get hurt or damaged?


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## Keeno Beano (Jul 19, 2014)

*12 month old DDR/Czech male fight drive and pack order*

Gosh I would be thankful if the pup was mine. The pup did the right thing as he could have been badly hurt. :shocked:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Obviously management is necessary for your puppy to grow with some confidence. Don't let bones lay around if there is resource guarding. How much training or structure do these dogs get? I'd rather have the submissive behavior in this case than a challenging one.... like Keeno Beano posted, he could have been hurt.
Manage their interactions, diffuse any posturing with quiet redirection. If you yell at one, it may ramp up the situation. If they don't get along, keep them separated.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

LOL. They have been best buds since he was 12 weeks old. THERE IS NO THREAT to my dog.

Sheesh man.

My dog is very well trained. Internet forums are something else. They have known each other for 10 months and have been in the yard together for a month and there was simply two small happenings.

Of course it is the difference in females and males in humans. The female is happy if her dog is submissive. The male wants his dog to be the boss.

I would NEVER let my 12 month old pup be put in harms way. How that came out of this question is absurd. It was really nothing. I am not stupid enough to keep them together if they were trying to maul each other.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> So I am supposed to go kick the other dog in the face?
> 
> There has not been a real fight yet. Just a showing of dominance.
> 
> So, letting my daughters dog stay with us is putting my dog in a position to get hurt or damaged?


Lol how old are you... 12 ? You set your dog up for a confrontation and expect him to kick the other's dog ass and still act like you do mothing wrong .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

but the young dog is getting older and the older one is going to beat him up to keep him submissive....

you said....

He didn't see it and it startled him and my pup was on the ball immediately and slammed into her dog who proceeded to grab my pup by the neck and pin him to the ground growling viciously. My pup just went limp and laid there.

This is exactly what YOU said....your young dog is pinned by an older dog who is showing dominance. This can and will probably escalate...

If you don't want people to make comments, then don't post comments and ask what people think about it! Many of us have multi dog households, and have experience in managing them. Because you don't like the comments does not mean they are wrong.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> LOL. They have been best buds since he was 12 weeks old. THERE IS NO THREAT to my dog.
> 
> Sheesh man.
> 
> ...


Really? I have three dogs and bitch fights are not something you ever want to have to break up. Two males may be just as bad, but they don't hold grudges like the females do. 
Why on earth do you want to watch your 1 yr old dog try to take on the older one? 
And speaking as a female, NO I don't want my male to be submissive. I want him to be confident, neutral and aloof....though if he's threatened, then he can take appropriate action(mature male, not a youngster)
There are times and places to submit...your dog did the right thing, your mindset will set him up to fail.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Really? I have three dogs and bitch fights are not something you ever want to have to break up. Two males may be just as bad, but they don't hold grudges like the females do.
> Why on earth do you want to watch your 1 yr old dog try to take on the older one?
> And speaking as a female, NO I don't want my male to be submissive. I want him to be confident, neutral and aloof....though if he's threatened, then he can take appropriate action(mature male, not a youngster)
> There are times and places to submit...your dog did the right thing, your mindset will set him up to fail.


So the simple answer would have been that it is probably because he is young?

The real problem is the senior members acting as if I made them fight or wanted them to fight. It was a simple happening as the three of us played as we do daily that I asked a question about.

I have seen how this place works. The last thread about the deer got closed by the mods because everyone got into a huge pissing match about machoism and bar fights. LOL.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

My goal with my dogs has always been to keep them from having a bad encounter. If crap goes sideways they "knew" dad had there back! They were "never" put in a situation to have a bad encounter?

It paid off for me one day when I found myself flat on my back and in no position to defend myself, while protecting my dogs from charging dogs! 

My dog stepped up without a word from me to deter the the remaining charging dog. Not sure he would have done that had he spent his first year being punk'd and wondering "where is dad??"

But hey, maybe your approach will work out OK in the long run? So besure and stick around to let us know?


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## Keeno Beano (Jul 19, 2014)

*12 month old DDR/Czech male fight drive and pack order*

I have five dogs and have had to break up a few fights and it is never a pretty site. When I am pulling them apart it is a horrible feeling. Thankfully I was close by to stop them. When either dog will not back down it can be awful. Gosh......I would much rather a dog go limp than fight. :gsdsit:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dogs should be neutral at best...resource guarding is not what I'd want my dogs to do with each other. I'd manage it. What is it you want to hear? Game on,and the DDR wins over the mixed breed?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> My goal with my dogs has always been to keep them from having a bad encounter. If crap goes sideways they "knew" dad had there back! They were "never" put in a situation to have a bad encounter?
> 
> It paid off for me one day when I found myself flat on my back and in no position to defend myself, while protecting my dogs from charging dogs!
> 
> ...


 DEAR GOD people. It lasted 1.8 seconds.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So why put up a thread about it?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> but the young dog is getting older and the older one is going to beat him up to keep him submissive....
> 
> you said....
> 
> ...



So what about the dude that said he has to break up REAL fights from time to time? Bad dog owner?

I have owned GSD's for 35 years and have had multiple dog households.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> So why put up a thread about it?


I am asking myself the same question.

I did not say "oh my god, big bad senior members of a GSD forum please come to my rescue, my dog is getting killed and I ran in to ask y'all for help instead of saving his life".

I simply asked if it was an age/dominance, pack order thing which I pretty much know the answer to. Just looking for some reassurance that I am correct.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> I am asking myself the same question.
> 
> I did not say "oh my god, big bad senior members of a GSD forum please come to my rescue, my dog is getting killed and I ran in to ask y'all for help instead of saving his life".
> 
> I simply asked if it was an age/dominance, pack order thing.


No you were hoping your dog to show some fight Sounds like that guy in youtube who set up a backyard fight for his son .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I also don't want the big bad dark sable DDR/Czech male that cowers from other dogs.


so who's ego is in need of feeding?
I have a dark sable WG/Czech male that I am happy with. He does protection like a boss and is neutral to other dogs...as he should be as long as they don't go all in his face. 








And if a strange dog does get in his face, he should allow a sniff as long as it is polite


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

basically your dog is not a dominant alpha type 1 dog. just because he is ddr/czech doesnt mean crap. with that said my czech dog would never ever in a million years run from a deer. i dont let him play with other dogs cuz he doesnt start fights but he will seriously end them. he is also young. sorry your dog isnt the baddest dog on the block. either love him for what he is or get rid of him to another home.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> No you were hoping your dog to show some fight Sounds like that guy in youtube who set up a backyard fight for his son .


 Or someone who does not like what has happened to the American GSD that cannot fight it's way out of a paper sack and went with DDR/Czech to hopefully get some fight drive which a GSD is supposed to have.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> Or someone who does not like what has happened to the American GSD that cannot fight it's way out of a paper sack and went with DDR/Czech to hopefully get some fight drive which a GSD is supposed to have.


Now the true self comes out hehe


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'd take him if I had room. He is gorgeous.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

um, fighting other dogs is not what the GSD is bred to do


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## Keeno Beano (Jul 19, 2014)

*12 month old ddr/Czech male fight drive and pack order*

Gunther I also said I wished my dogs would go limp during a fight so as for the fight not to go any farther and one of them get hurt. I have broken up fights between my dogs as sometimes one wants the other ones bones. I would not be upset because one of my dogs went limp that is what I am trying to get across to you. Gosh. I do not know what you want to hear. :gsdhead:


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> So what about the dude that said he has to break up REAL fights from time to time? Bad dog owner?
> 
> I have owned GSD's for 35 years and have had multiple dog households.


I have owned GSDs and GSD mixes for 50 years ALWAYS with a multiple dog household, I am NOT a professional, and I learned decades ago to ward off fights before they start--learn to READ your dogs. I have had wolf/shepherd crosses in the same household with GSDs, and for the most part, kept a harmonious household. It you happen to have a canine with a short temper, you MANAGE the situation. I had a higher percentage wolf shepherd female who seriously wanted to kill one of my males--and we still managed a harmonious, calm household all her 14 years until she passed away in her sleep. You read your dogs, you KNOW your dogs, and you intervene BEFORE anything serious ramps up, and you manage. Your dogs should all know that YOU will manage the situation. Their confidence in you will build their overall confidence in life.

Susan


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> um, fighting other dogs is not what the GSD is bred to do


speak for yourself. my czech/wg dog would rip up anyone who challenges him


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well you just shot that right down...


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I'd take him if I had room. He is gorgeous.


 Hi is not going anywhere. He is awesome and is in a very loving home.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm still waiting for more pictures of your dog, Gunther. You have a good boy there. He doesn't have to be type A.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Just an observation, I find that men (not all for sure), think if their big bad gsd doesn't defend itself by kicking another dogs butt for looking cross eyed at it, then the dog is a wimp..

I guess my question would be to the OP, what would you like your dog to have done in this situation? Fight back? possibly rip the other dog up? If he had, you'd be responsible for the vet bill I would think..

I guess I don't understand 'why' you seem to 'want' the dog to defend itself?


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

I just read this whole thread and it seems like everyone is way over reacting. The guy said , or actually asked a question about a particular instance. He didn't say anything about being Michael Vick and wanting to fight him, or wanting to rehome him. He also said the other dog is his daughter's pet and the two dogs have known each other all along. Seems to me like it's just the normal ying/yang between two dogs - no matter the breed.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Just an observation, I find that men (not all for sure), think if their big bad gsd doesn't defend itself by kicking another dogs butt for looking cross eyed at it, then the dog is a wimp..
> 
> I guess my question would be to the OP, what would you like your dog to have done in this situation? Fight back? possibly rip the other dog up? If he had, you'd be responsible for the vet bill I would think..
> 
> I guess I don't understand 'why' you seem to 'want' the dog to defend itself?


One answer would be that if he was sitting on our porch and a large male dog came up and attacked him going for the throat if he just laid there he would have no chance yet if he has some fight he may survive until I get there and take matters into my own hands.

What if a raging pitt bull breaks into our yard? Yes I would want him to rise to the occasion.

In now way am I going to not love him either way. He is awesome.

Overreaction is an understatement here from the masses in doggy forum world.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Capt said:


> I just read this whole thread and it seems like everyone is way over reacting. The guy said , or actually asked a question about a particular instance. He didn't say anything about being Michael Vick and wanting to fight him, or wanting to rehome him. He also said the other dog is his daughter's pet and the two dogs have know each other all along. Seems to me like it's just the normal ying/yang between two dogs - no matter the breed.


no actually he sounds disappointed his dog didnt fight back and just laid there. 

which is fine. certain people expect certain things out of their dogs. but the dog is what it is. 

czech dogs are higher in defensive drives and are more suspicious and should have good fight drive but it depends on the breeding and also the individual dog. op if you want to know about your dog go do some protection work with him and that will show his true colors.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If a raging pittie came up, game over...I doubt a GSD has a chance in **** to win that. You should be the one to protect your pup(yes he's still a pup/remember the lines mature much later!) and grow his confidence level. Then when another dog approaches in a threatening way your dog will have the witherall to stay his ground, but truthfully if dogs rushing up on your property are a problem, why don't you carry a gun?


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> If a raging pittie came up, game over...I doubt a GSD has a chance in **** to win that. You should be the one to protect your pup(yes he's still a pup/remember the lines mature much later!) and grow his confidence level. Then when another dog approaches in a threatening way your dog will have the witherall to stay his ground, but truthfully if dogs rushing up on your property are a problem, why don't you carry a gun?


Again,... He said the other dog was a family pet. Anyone who knows anything about animals knows that there is an established pecking order. Horses do it, cats do it, roosters do it, etc...
In my 50 plus years of life and having had two GSD, I understand the questions posed by the OP.
He didn't say he wanted his dog to act like he's got the zombie virus, he just wants his dog to have some defense. Don't we all?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> If a raging pittie came up, game over...I doubt a GSD has a chance in **** to win that. You should be the one to protect your pup(yes he's still a pup/remember the lines mature much later!) and grow his confidence level. Then when another dog approaches in a threatening way your dog will have the witherall to stay his ground, but truthfully if dogs rushing up on your property are a problem, why don't you carry a gun?


 Funny you should ask.

Let's just get this all out on the table. LMAO.

I am a 4x4 truck driving, beer swilling, football watching man. I shoot deer and hogs with a bow and put them on the smoker and eat them. There are a lot of us around in America. Does that offend you?

The guns are not an issue. LOL. We don't have that problem at all around our house. Great neighborhood in the Texas Hill Country. Very low crime rate. No pitt bulls on log chains. LOL.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> Funny you should ask.
> 
> Let's just get this all out on the table. LMAO.
> 
> ...


What a badass  sorry your dog is not as tough as you.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> What a badass  sorry your dog is not as tough as you.


 Just a normal American dude that supports or 2nd amendment. 

He is going to be....when he is 3.


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

What would Cesar Milan say??? Ha!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Capt said:


> Again,... He said the other dog was a family pet. Anyone who knows anything about animals knows that there is an established pecking order. Horses do it, cats do it, roosters do it, etc...
> In my 50 plus years of life and having had two GSD, I understand the questions posed by the OP.
> He didn't say he wanted his dog to act like he's got the zombie virus, he just wants his dog to have some defense. Don't we all?


My response was from the OP's scenario posted above mine.

defense drive often comes from insecurity...so at a yr old, no, I'd want my pup to be confident and forward but not try to kill anything that appears in his world. Discernment and thinking...with a higher threshold.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> My response was from the OP's scenario posted above mine.
> 
> defense drive often comes from insecurity...so at a yr old, no, I'd want my pup to be confident and forward but not try to kill anything that appears in his world. Discernment and thinking...with a higher threshold.


 I think what Capt is trying to say is that y'all piled on me as if I was Michael Vick tazing a dog that didn't fight or putting him in a ring to fight which was a bit over the top and quite ridiculous.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> A few of y'all may remember my thread about my pup running from an angry mam deer. We got past that as he shows no fear at all of the deer yet he trained easily not to chase them.
> 
> New issue/question. He is now 12 months and about 75 lbs. My daughter's 5-6 year old male mix from a GSD rescue is currently staying with us. They are big buddies and get along great. A few weeks ago her dog took possession of my dogs ball and went under the deck. Her dog growled and my dog came out cowering. Ugh. Now today I threw the ball in the direction of her dog. He didn't see it and it startled him and my pup was on the ball immediately and slammed into her dog who proceeded to grab my pup by the neck and pin him to the ground growling viciously. My pup just went limp and laid there.
> 
> ...


My opinion..... you are setting your pup up for fear aggression and/or DA. Continue letting the above scenarios play out and not manage their time together better it is almost a sure bet. 

And nope, not gonna argue it or debate it, you are going to do what you want.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If the other dog is a constant in your home, he is taking on the role as the leader. He gave your dog a hard correction, your dog took it. If your dog didn't take it, he could have been seriously hurt. Any drives will have lots to do with genetics, but I'm sure there are ways to bring those out. You don't want your dog to go up against a raging pit bull, they are bred to fight and most breeds don't stand a chance against them. Protect your dog.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I find people's overreactions on this forum hilarious.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Wow. Gotta step in here and say wow. Overreaction has left the building and is in Taiwan at this point. 

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and quit reading into an internet post and making very nasty assumptions about someone else. 

Maybe it was not worded in "board appropriate" speak, but come on. It's a simple question. No need to get on your soapbox and preach. 

OP. I too have a young DDR male GSD. he is a baby, love him to pieces. He grew up around my sisters rescued GSD. When he was about your boys age, my sister brought her dog over and we let them loose in the yard. Her dog, 5yo male, quickly put my boy in his place. My sister asked of that bothered me and I said " nope, Nix was being a tool". 

DDR are known for slow maturity. It's up to us to make sure all interactions are as positive as possible. We aren't perfect, things happen. How we respond and how our dogs recover are what we should look at. In my case, I did not panic, and my dog got up and resumed playing, more respectfully. Lesson learned. 

Now that my boy is 18mo, I am very careful about his interactions with my sisters dog. He is feeling his oats. He is less likely to back down now. But I know that he has another solid 1.5 years to mature. As he gets older, more self assured I will probably reintroduce them. Right now he is all hormones and obnoxiousness. 

Your puppy did the right thing. He submitted to the dog in his life that had been the leader. That may or may not change in their relationship. He may always submit to this particular dog. That does not mean he is wimpy. It just means the "pack structure" in your family is solid. It in no way defines what he would do if a strange dog attacked. Totally different things. 

One more thing. We need to stop throwing around "resource 
guarding". The older dog has never, that we know, shown that before. In my home, I teach my dogs to be respectful of other dogs. If one has a good bone and another dog wants it and dog A says" back off" with a growl, I don't mind. I make sure the "stealer" walks away. Trust and respect. Dogs need to learn to respect other dogs signals. Period. I don't allow stealing of bones, no matter what dog tries to do it. 

OP, you have a long way to go with your puppy. He will be immature for a while. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote OP "Of course it is the difference in females and males in humans. The female is happy if her dog is submissive. The male wants his dog to be the boss"

NO that is YOUR problem and other males who compensate with bad-ass dogs.
You had quite a bit of disdain when your dog was insecure with a bambi-deer . The dog wasn't macho. 

chip18 has it right "My goal with my dogs has always been to keep them from having a bad encounter. If crap goes sideways they "knew" dad had there back! They were "never" put in a situation to have a bad encounter?"

In your opening post you think it is a new issue, now it is , for pete's sake only 1.8 seconds . 

In your opening post you say "My daughter's 5-6 year old male mix from a GSD rescue is currently staying with us."

currently , which makes it sound as if this is a change due to circumstances. Later you say the dogs have been together basically right from the beginning.

Is he embarrassing you ?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Wow. Gotta step in here and say wow. Overreaction has left the building and is in Taiwan at this point.
> 
> Everyone needs to take a deep breath and quit reading into an internet post and making very nasty assumptions about someone else.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your educated answer. That was what I was looking for.

I would like to stay around and be a part of the forum but the violent attack on me was much worse than what happened with "OUR" dogs today.

Apparently someone didn't pay attention to the moderators post. 

It's all good. I love my puppy and he is awesome. LOL. Just a minor mishap here and there. 

The two dogs are buddies 99% of the time.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

carmspack said:


> quote OP "Of course it is the difference in females and males in humans. The female is happy if her dog is submissive. The male wants his dog to be the boss"
> 
> NO that is YOUR problem and other males who compensate with bad-ass dogs.
> You had quite a bit of disdain when your dog was insecure with a bambi-deer . The dog wasn't macho.
> ...



Get over yourself. It is just a forum. Breathe. It is not life or death. LOL.

If we are splitting hairs here then chip18 has it wrong. It is their, not there.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

who violently attacked you? I don't see the posts that are showing anything other than the same thoughts that gsdsar posted.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> Funny you should ask.
> 
> Let's just get this all out on the table. LMAO.
> 
> ...


This says all... Its about the OP insecurity and he need a dog to boost his Ego.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> DEAR GOD people. It lasted 1.8 seconds.


Well by the sounds of it you wanted it to last longer than that.... Not sure why you would want your dog to fight back. 

Good puppy.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> This says all... Its about the OP insecurity and he need a dog to boost his Ego.


 That's your opinion. I could gather from your post that you are a PETA loving, tree hugging liberal. I could say plenty, but I will not.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> That's your opinion. I could gather from your post that you are a PETA loving, tree hugging liberal. I could say plenty, but I will not.


I don't hug trees


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> who violently attacked you? I don't see the posts that are showing anything other than the same thoughts that gsdsar posted.


 lol. Ok.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Well, I'm a tree hugger and a liberal, and I think the way people jumped on you was unfair. I've been jumped on more than a few times on the forums and I think it is just ridiculous. Just laugh.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> I don't hug trees


 And you certainly do not know me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This has to be the most stupid argument ever. Sometimes wording is off when trying to explain something in writing. It's always best to ask questions to clarify things. Cockiness and sarcasm don't get anyone anywhere. The dog is young. My female was a little younger when a Leonberger decided to go for her, my girl ran as soon as she seen her coming, I was happy she ran, it gave us time to catch the attacking dog and avoid a fight. Now at the age if 3, she is not likely to run. She won't start a fight but she will finish it. I don't put her in those situations. The way to build their confidence is to make them feel protected. There is a difference between a dog attacking and a dog correcting another dog. In multiple dog homes there will be corrections and out of respect for the older dog, the younger dog takes it and learns from it. Your dog is a young normal dog and he is making good choices. Now can everyone get along?


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Well, *I'm a tree hugger and a liberal*, and I think the way people jumped on you was unfair. I've been jumped on more than a few times on the forums and I think it is just ridiculous. Just laugh.


 I have no issue at all with that. 

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and way of life.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

How old is your boy again? Both of my dogs have DDR heritage, and are 1 and 2, respectively.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

13 months on Aug 1. He comes from Iltis v der Wildsau, Ginta z PS, Chuligan Z PS, Condor An Sat and such.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

My girl has some Czech in her pedigree too.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Totally get the jist of your question. You bought the dog because you wanted something a cut above the usual soft as butter dogs you see out there.

Independence, resilience, courage, heart and drive. A dog you can depend on.

You watch for these qualities as the dog matures in his interactions with the world around him. How does he react to new situations, to stressors and obstacles. What is his attitude, body language etc. Does he show heart, does he cower, does he give up or does he persist.
You watch for all these things and try to guage what the dog is going to be.

If this did not matter to you, you would have gone to the pound and picked up a mutt and been happy.

The reality is the breeder and pedigree stacks the odds in your favor but nothing is for sure. There are dogs and there are dogs and they cant all be the "alpha" type dog unfortunately.

Would I be concerned? 
Yes to be honest with you, submission is not fight, nor is flight a positive for what I want in a dog. However, I would take it into account and apply it to the whole picture I have infront of me.
How does the dog take a correction? How does he react to the decoy? How does he bite/strike? 
Maybe he isnt a tier 1 dog but can be made stronger through training and experience. Maybe he cannot and you either accept him for what he is or sell and aquire another dog.

Nothing wrong with what you want nor is there anything "macho" about it. You want what you want, thats why you spent the money and did some research. 

Some of the people on here just love to blab about nothing.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Interesting that a new member would sign up and make three posts defending the op in this thread. Coincidence?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Interesting that a new member would sign up and make three posts defending the op in this thread. Coincidence?


I looked at that in passing too.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I remember your initial thread about the deer. You had a mixture of opinions about that from memory.
Some said it was acceptable for a 6 month old (from memory??) to run from an angry mother deer and some said they would see that as an indicator to nerve.
So maybe that had you questioning your dog a little and now you are observing this with the other dog and wondering if it's related.....so I do understand where the doubts/questions are coming from 
Blitzkrieg1 summed it up pretty well......time will tell but look at the whole dog.....hopefully he will be what you need him to be but in the mean time keep him safe and place him only in situations where it will build his confidence


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Oh my word! Just read through this whole thread. Gunther der Heinz, just put some coconut oil on it, or all over yourself, or perhaps paint the house with coconut oil.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Your puppy did the right thing. He submitted to the dog in his life that had been the leader. That may or may not change in their relationship. He may always submit to this particular dog. That does not mean he is wimpy. It just means the "pack structure" in your family is solid. It in no way defines what he would do if a strange dog attacked. Totally different things.
> 
> One more thing. We need to stop throwing around "resource
> guarding". The older dog has never, that we know, shown that before. In my home, I teach my dogs to be respectful of other dogs. If one has a good bone and another dog wants it and dog A says" back off" with a growl, I don't mind. I make sure the "stealer" walks away. Trust and respect. Dogs need to learn to respect other dogs signals. Period. I don't allow stealing of bones, no matter what dog tries to do it.


I agree with this  My GSD Eko, just a few months ago, broke a window trying to get at another dog. We've made huge progress in training but he used to have to wear a muzzle due to his dog aggression. You definitely don't want that, OP! Funny thing is, I have a female American Pit Bull Terrier and she is half his size and age, but they have always gotten along great and he actually submits to her. This is the same 90lb dog that has tried to rip strange dogs apart and would not hesitate if another dog attacked him. Xena has not shown any kind of dog aggression but has put dogs in their place before, if they don't approach her politely.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdsar said:


> *One more thing. We need to stop throwing around "resource
> guarding"*. The older dog has never, that we know, shown that before. In my home, I teach my dogs to be respectful of other dogs. If one has a good bone and another dog wants it and dog A says" back off" with a growl, I don't mind. I make sure the "stealer" walks away. Trust and respect. Dogs need to learn to respect other dogs signals.


From what I read in this thread, I was the only one who used the term resource guarding. It wasn't thrown around?

I also manage those moments and teach young dogs they aren't allowed to show aggression or steal when toys/food in the picture. 
Why is the term resource guarding a problem to use when clearly it is the reason for the older dogs actions. The older dog may never have had a reason to show that before. 



> A few weeks ago her dog took possession of my dogs ball and went under the deck. Her dog growled and my dog came out cowering. Ugh. Now today I threw the ball in the direction of her dog. He didn't see it and it startled him and my pup was on the ball immediately and slammed into her dog who proceeded to grab my pup by the neck and pin him to the ground growling viciously. My pup just went limp and laid there.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> From what I read in this thread, I was the only one who used the term resource guarding. It wasn't thrown around?
> 
> I also manage those moments and teach young dogs they aren't allowed to show aggression or steal when toys/food in the picture.
> Why is the term resource guarding a problem to use when clearly it is the reason for the older dogs actions. The older dog may never have had a reason to show that before.



I say that because, to me, resource guarding is a huge issue. I don't see a dog that on occasion tells a younger pup to keep away as a huge issue. So when I read "resource guarding" it means a lot more than a single incident. 

I don't always pay attention to who posts what. I just read through and respond, never noticing if it was one person only who said something. So I apologize if you thought I was singling you out. That was not my intention. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Totally get the jist of your question. You bought the dog because you wanted something a cut above the usual soft as butter dogs you see out there.
> 
> Independence, resilience, courage, heart and drive. A dog you can depend on.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly!
As for the suspicion behind me being a new member and defending the OP, this was the first thread I came to as it was first on the list. I was a bit surprised at how some of you long standing members handled yourselves. I don't agree with what a lot of you said, but I'm not going to berate you. The majority of posts on this thread weren't helpful to the OP at all.
However, from what I've seen, not sure I will spend a lot of time here.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Capt said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> As for the suspicion behind me being a new member and defending the OP, this was the first thread I came to as it was first on the list. I was a bit surprised at how some of you long standing members handled yourselves. I don't agree with what a lot of you said, but I'm not going to berate you. The majority of posts on this thread weren't helpful to the OP at all.
> However, from what I've seen, not sure I will spend a lot of time here.


On the contrary this is a very helpful place  they just not so much into a grown man who expect his badass dog to dominate his own daughter's dog lol.


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm trying to understand,....

Where did the OP say this? I understood him to be asking at what point, given the breed of dog he has and the bloodlines he has, will the dog start exhibiting a more dominant behavior. I didn't see where he said he wanted his dog to harm his daughter's dog. 

Like one poster stated,... GSD have certain characteristics and that, a lot of time, is why they are chosen.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

From the OP's first post, "Maybe I am expecting too much out of him. I just expected there to be a little fight drive there. You know, *fight back but lose* to the older dog until it is his day to take over the alpha dog role."

Anyone that says that, is saying they expected to see some violence. A fight, isn't a growling match or a barking match. A fight how I understand it, is a physical confrontation between two creatures. Rarely do dogs work things out by talking it out, and that's what I got from OP's post...there was an expectation of physicality.

Most people, with multiple dog households, will themselves set the pack order. There isn't a discussion between the dogs about this, there is a discussion between the humans and the dogs. I think that's what most people don't get in this post...and what they're trying to get across. It's the human's job to set the dominance order...the moment you leave it to the dogs, is the moment you are going to have an injured dog.

It's just a weird expectation to want to see your dog react with an intent to hurt. My dog was always submissive to older dogs as a pup. Then at about a year old, I saw him react with violence...that was probably one of the worst days with him. It was the moment I knew that I couldn't trust him around other animals anymore and had to really watch the interactions. Although he's very aloof and neutral now, if another dog challenges him, he's not afraid to finish. Which basically leads us to not interacting with strange dogs, not going to dog parks, and it has really limited some of the things I used to love to do with him when he was younger and I knew he wouldn't hurt anything.

Remember...there's probably ONE breed out there, that if your GSD gets in a fight with it, the other breed will get blamed. In today's world...if your GSD reacts to anything, it will be his fault. Doesn't matter how long that golden/lab/doodle thing has been humping him and pissing him off...it will always be the GSD's fault.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Capt said:


> I'm trying to understand,....
> 
> Where did the OP say this? I understood him to be asking at what point, given the breed of dog he has and the bloodlines he has, will the dog start exhibiting a more dominant behavior. I didn't see where he said he wanted his dog to harm his daughter's dog.
> 
> Like one poster stated,... GSD have certain characteristics and that, a lot of time, is why they are chosen.


It was just bad wording and misinterpretation of said wording. Most people that have a multiple dog home don't want that dominance coming out within the home or within the pack. It can result in constant management or removal of a dog. It's not the greatest example to start a thread about. The dog in question is respecting his pack. Just because hd acts that way at home does not mean it will be the same outside of the home. Unless someone puts their dog in that situation outside of the home, it's very likely that it will never be known whst the dog will do, which is not a bad thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> 13 months on Aug 1. He comes from Iltis v der Wildsau, Ginta z PS, Chuligan Z PS, Condor An Sat and such.


First, I haven't read the several pages of whatever that has already been posted so I'm just addressing your first comment.

My puppy has a line from Cordon An Sat as well. I'm not sure if that is relevant. I'm starting to see some possession come out in him more now at 10 months. BUT he is still a young dog and still defers to the older dogs we have, especially my female GSD. Fighting with her will the Goddess of War (me) come down on him. I have seen him get snarky over a few things the last couple of weeks so I up his obedience. No need to guard items. However, IMO, that is also part of the possession he has which will make him a good sport dog. What's his is his. He just needs to learn when it's allowed and when it's not.

I think you are looking at this wrong. You had a strange dog in your home who was guarding items from the resident dog. At 13 months, your pup is still building his confidence and he was probably really unsure about this other dog. Don't allow another dog to rock his world. And don't allow him to ram into the older dog. He might not have been guarding, he might have been PO'd or it might have hurt him. Active dog aggression is a PIA to manage. And it will only take one good fight to ruin a dog. So you need to stop a dog fight before it happens. They only escalate.

The "alpha dominance" theory is junk. The guy that came up with that theory has since said it's junk. You don't want a "dominant" dog. You want a confident one. And a confident one doesn't feel the need to fight over resources.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

As we have seen, people have differing opinions of what is right and wrong as well as others want/need in a dog. Sure some people are all lilly white and want a soft little puppy dog that never shows fight/dominance/aggression/home protection and such. It seems that the majority on here are that type. Good for y'all. 

Then there are people and places all over the world that have and want dogs for the reasons that the lilly white folk do not. Neither is right or wrong. Just different. Humans have guard dogs for a reason. 

Someone just said that "most" multiple dog households do this and that and set the tone for the pack order. That is kinda funny. I work in the broadband communications industry and let me tell you there are just as many homes in bad neighborhoods and the country that in no way do this. I see 10 dogs in a yard unsupervised/trained all the time. Don't paint with such a broad brush. I am not saying that is right. Just saying that assuming that "most" do it the way you think it should be done is an incorrect statement. Most probably do it the wrong way. 

Yes I want my dog to be well socialized and be able to go places with us and other dogs. At the same time I want him to guard our house, family and vehicles. I see people on here say that dogs should not bark at strangers and should just run up to them and lick them to death. That is an opinion. If you want your dog to do that fine, I do not want mine too. Sure I would want a Poodle or Golden Retriever to do that but I didn't buy one of those. I bought a DDR/Czech line dark sable because I want a dog that is tough and doesn't take any crap and will protect his peeps when needed. He has shown all of that. We have actually had to tone it down a bit. The dang mama deer and the other dog have been the only issues. They were small ones. In public he acts as if he wants to rip other dogs heads off. That is a work in progress. He is getting better. LOL. He will be fine. If he ends up being a wimp, which we do not think he will in most situations, we will not be rehoming him. LMAO. I will accept him as he is. It's ok to wish for one thing yet accept another. 

Multiple people have said that I wanted there to be this vicious fight til death which is goofy. I just said I wished he would have not simply went limp. At that point I would have stepped in and shown them that I was the alpha male. Dog fights happen. More times than not they are not bloody and near death experiences. Male dogs have skirmishes like male humans do.

No I do not want OUR dogs to fight. I wish for them to get along as they do 99.8% of the time.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

FWIW I have had GSD's in multiple dog households for 35 years and there has never been one vicious fight. Never have I ever taken one to the vet because of a fight.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You knew your position and your pups strengths/weaknesses before you started this thread. So all the lily whites and the lily white-nots have had their say. 
Don't forget....you have a puppy who is not yet mentally mature. With maturity the natural instinct of guarding/patrolling and discernment should show itself, as long as the dog has confidence. Until then, it is up to you to see he can be his 'dark sable DDR/Czech' self that you purchased him for and not turn into a poodle or golden retriever.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> You knew your position and your pups strengths/weaknesses before you started this thread. So all the lily whites and the lily white-nots have had their say.
> Don't forget....*you have a puppy who is not yet mentally mature. With maturity the natural instinct of guarding/patrolling and discernment should show itself, as long as the dog has confidence.* Until then, it is up to you to see he can be his 'dark sable DDR/Czech' self that you purchased him for and not turn into a poodle or golden retriever.


I knew that before I started this thread as well.

My intent was to strike up a conversation on a forum I had been lurking on. Possibly discuss it with experienced owners/handlers of DDR/Czech lines as I had only read about them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> As we have seen, people have differing opinions of what is right and wrong as well as others want/need in a dog. Sure some people are all lilly white and want a soft little puppy dog that never shows fight/dominance/aggression/home protection and such. It seems that the majority on here are that type. Good for y'all.
> 
> Then there are people and places all over the world that have and want dogs for the reasons that the lilly white folk do not. Neither is right or wrong. Just different. Humans have guard dogs for a reason.
> 
> ...


So you see 10 dogs in a yard and you assume they aren't trained because they aren't supervised? I have 6 dogs in my yard right now not supervised and they are trained. They established the pack order a long time ago, with some guidance from me, but not much. My dogs do not bark at everything, but when they do, I know something isn't right. Why would anyone want a dog that barks at the wind? GSD's are aloof, no matter what line they are from, but that doesn't mean they should attack, bark, or growl at everyone. They should be able to tell the difference between a threat and a non threat. If you want your dog to do these things, that is your choice, but a huge liability. If he is doing these things, then he might not be a stable sound dog. The problem here is this dog is probably developing the right way and you don't think he is.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

at what age is "wait to mature" no longer a valid excuse? 

when someone brings their dog to the club and when the dog does poorly in bitework they just say "oh wait until he's more mature". 

do police departments wait until these ddr dogs are 3 years old to even train bite work? lol


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

llombardo said:


> So you see 10 dogs in a yard and you assume they aren't trained because they aren't supervised? I have 6 dogs in my yard right now not supervised and they are trained. They established the pack order a long time ago, with some guidance from me, but not much. My dogs do not bark at everything, but when they do, I know something isn't right. Why would anyone want a dog that barks at the wind? GSD's are aloof, no matter what line they are from, but that doesn't mean they should attack, bark, or growl at everyone. They should be able to tell the difference between a threat and a non threat. If you want your dog to do these things, that is your choice, but a huge liability. If he is doing these things, then he might not be a stable sound dog. The problem here is this dog is probably developing the right way and you don't think he is.


LOL. Cruise through the ghetto homie. LOL.

Man you people paint with a broad brush. DID YOU NOT SEE THAT WE HAD TO REIGN HIM IN A BIT AND IT WAS GOING WELL? Yes he has shown some protective instinct. Yes he is best buds with our cats and 5 year old grandson. Where did I ever say that he should not be able to determine a threat yet relax when told it's ok? That is one of the great things about the GSD.

You and Ogirl need to have a battle royal. She says the humans MUST set the pack order while you said your six dogs did it themselves.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

simba405 said:


> at what age is "wait to mature" no longer a valid excuse?
> 
> when someone brings their dog to the club and when the dog does poorly in bitework they just say "oh wait until he's more mature".
> 
> do police departments wait until these ddr dogs are 3 years old to even train bite work? lol


Threshold levels play into it, it may take some maturity for the dog to turn on because the threshold is higher. Many helper/decoys don't want(or know how) to work the dog that takes more effort in engaging...so a dog sitting there staring at the helper is not going to turn on like one with lower threshold.
How many DDR dogs are in LE? Most of the LE K9's are WG, Czech or KNPV line imports.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Threshold levels play into it, it may take some maturity for the dog to turn on because the threshold is higher. Many helper/decoys don't want(or know how) to work the dog that takes more effort in engaging...so a dog sitting there staring at the helper is not going to turn on like a lower threshold.
> How many DDR dogs are in LE? Most of the LE K9's are WG, Czech or KNPV line imports.


I'm not sure what quality traits ddr dogs even bring other than their dark color. 

When I think wgwl I think high prey/flashy/likes sleeve at early age. When I think Czech I think serious/civil/angry. When I think ddr I think dark dogs that hang out on the sidelines because they are slow to mature.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

simba405 said:


> *I'm not sure what quality traits ddr dogs even bring other than their dark color.*
> 
> When I think wgwl I think high prey/flashy/likes sleeve at early age. When I think Czech I think serious/civil/angry. When I think ddr I think dark dogs that hang out on the sidelines because they are slow to mature.


I completely agree. 
But mixing lines adds the strengths and removes the weakness for balance. My Czech/WG isn't what I'd consider a sport dog, he carried a fair amount of suspicion when younger, has a higher threshold and is very balanced. Turns on quickly. I never waited for him to mature mentally, he's been training since a pup. Not sure that was the best thing for him, but he has the genetics to overcome what his newb handler put on him.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

If you've had GSD's in multiple dog households for 35 years, then why are you even here asking this question? Surely you've had enough experience in 35 years to realize your dog is too young to even begin to ask these questions, and/or regarding a multi-dog rank structure. After all, this would be something you would have seen many times if you've had all these dogs for all these years.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as I said before it was deference to an older dog -- a ritualized social statement that was communicated by each participating dog --- however , if you want the younger dog to come into his own , it is not a good idea to have the older dog cow him . 
So why does your dog quote "In public he acts as if he wants to rip other dogs heads off."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

too late to edit: But mixing lines * hopefully *adds the strengths and removes the weakness for balance...if the breeder is knowledgeable on those weakness/strengths and the lines they are putting together.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

carmspack said:


> as I said before it was deference to an older dog -- a ritualized social statement that was communicated by each participating dog --- however , if you want the younger dog to come into his own , it is not a good idea to have the older dog cow him .
> So why does your dog quote "In public he acts as if he wants to rip other dogs heads off."


Pretty sure someone already gave us the possible answer to that.

He calms easily with a stern command. He is not nearly as bad now. He is smart as a whip and trains easily. Isn't it called socializing? Yeah, it worked well with him. 

Y'all can keep trying to make more of this than it is and trying to talk some sort of weak dog board smack all you want. LOL.

This board is worse than any sports or hunting board I have ever been on.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

thick skin is a given if you wanna run with the big dogs...or medium according to the breed standard. lol


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> LOL. Cruise through the ghetto homie. LOL.
> 
> Man you people paint with a broad brush. DID YOU NOT SEE THAT WE HAD TO REIGN HIM IN A BIT AND IT WAS GOING WELL? Yes he has shown some protective instinct. Yes he is best buds with our cats and 5 year old grandson. Where did I ever say that he should not be able to determine a threat yet relax when told it's ok? That is one of the great things about the GSD.
> 
> You and Ogirl need to have a battle royal. She says the humans MUST set the pack order while you said your six dogs did it themselves.


I was born and raised in Chicago and I'm quite aware of what goes on there. I don't have to cruise through like some, I lived it. Read my post again, I said they did it themselves with some help from me. If he had shown some protective instincts, why are you so concerned how he acts with other dogs? I highly doubt a dog will break into your house and rob and kill y'all.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

RocketDog said:


> If you've had GSD's in multiple dog households for 35 years, then why are you even here asking this question? Surely you've had enough experience in 35 years to realize your dog is too young to even begin to ask these questions, and/or regarding a multi-dog rank structure. After all, this would be something you would have seen many times if you've had all these dogs for all these years.


 So I made that up? 

I stated that I was wondering if there should be a difference in the DDR/Czech lines because he was my first.

I feel like I am arguing with my sister's kids.

Ugh.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> thick skin is a given if you wanna run with the * *** Removed by ADMI
> N ****...or medium according to the breed standard. lol


You have no idea.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I never said anything like that. I merely said, if you've had a multiple dog household for 35 years, this stuff shouldn't be new to you. How dogs act together as they mature. It's different if you've never had a multi-dog house before. But you, on the other hand, stated you've had a lot of experience. So surely you've seen lots of stuff like this before.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> You have no idea.


First off, your spelling is incorrect. Second, since you have a ten minute window to edit, I will advise you the board here is very particular. This kind of quote is cause for banning. Or at the very least, warning. Certainly you can respond without name calling. 

Who is the kid now?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

troll much?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

So.. Wait. WGWL= prey drive. Czech= angry? DDR= sitting on the sidelines waiting to mature?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

The stereotypes about the different lines are funny. I wonder how true they are...


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

I thought this thread was starting to take a turn for the better, but upon further reading I was wrong.

Is it just this particular thread that has everyone all edgy or is it always like this?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> The stereotypes about the different lines are funny. I wonder how true they are...


All of these types of German Shepherd dogs within the breed are unique for a variety of reasons. Physical appearance, drives, temperament and purpose varies among the lines, but all of them are German Shepherds equally. 


WEST GERMAN SHOW LINES
The most popular type of GSD in Germany, the West German show lines are bred to conform to the SV standard which also requires the dog to gain health clearances for hips and elbows and a working title (often herding or IPO) along with their show title prior to being bred. The "look" of this type is very specific and typically very uniform, most commonly presented as a black and red saddle back.

AMERICAN / CANADIAN SHOW LINES
Popular in North America since the 1970's, the American and Canadian show lines dominate the national kennel clubs and are intended to conform strictly to the standards set by each of the governing kennel clubs. Conformation and the side gait is what this type is passionately bred for. American and Canadian show lines tend to be the most popular type in North America, making up a large number of the German Shepherds in pet homes. 

WEST GERMAN WORKING LINES
The dogs of West German working blood are often said to be the closest of all types to the original dogs produced under Max von Stephanitz. Focus is given to correct working structure, solid temperament and especially to correct, strong working drives and ability. West German working line German Shepherds excel in many different sports, real working jobs and positions of service. Like every German Shepherd should, they also make phenomenal active family pets.


DDR / EAST GERMAN WORKING
Developed after World War 2 from the remaining war dogs, the DDR / East German dogs were maintained strictly by the government of East Germany. Rigid control of the original DDR bloodlines resulted in a very distinct look. Best known for their typically correct working structure, large heads, large bone and dark pigment. The DDR bloodlines are also known for being very sound dogs, though working drives can vary.

CZECH WORKING LINES
Originating in the communist Czechoslovakia and built on a foundation of working dogs used primarily for border patrol work, the Czech bloodlines are dominated by dogs who have a foundation of popular border patrol dogs and Czech military dogs. Unique to the this type, the original breeding of Czech dogs revolved around the Czechoslovakian Army’s Pohranicni Straze kennel.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> The stereotypes about the different lines are funny. I wonder how true they are...


 In terms of stereotypes, I think in a lot of ways its a difference of expectations from websites and internet "research" and actually seeing dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Capt said:


> I thought this thread was starting to take a turn for the better, but upon further reading I was wrong.
> 
> Is it just this particular thread that has everyone all edgy or is it always like this?


Both. This thread is nuts but many threads seem to be taking this turn lately


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Both. This thread is nuts but many threads seem to be taking this turn lately


Thanks for the honesty.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gunther wants to learn about his dogs lines, supposedly wanted opinions about it on this board...people shared. Gunther chooses to name call and hackle for whatever reason. Gunther set the tone early on. I hope his puppy turns out to be exactly what he expected.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote OP "Y'all can keep trying to make more of this than it is and trying to talk some sort of weak dog board smack all you want. LOL."

I don't see one person saying that the dog is "some sort of weak dog" -- only yourself , here and in the mama deer thread.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I believe Gunther was saying the smack talked on this board is weak, not his dog. "Weak" is slang for lame.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> too late to edit: But mixing lines * hopefully *adds the strengths and removes the weakness for balance...if the breeder is knowledgeable on those weakness/strengths and the lines they are putting together.


yeah of course and i wonder why people would add in ddr lines? i honestly hope its just not for color.

i also wonder if ddr dogs really are that slow to mature or is it always used as a sorry excuse for a sorry dogs (i lean excuse)

also op, your dog looking to rip other dogs apart out and about doesnt make him dominant and badass. its actually the opposite. he's probably doing it because he's insecure.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> WEST GERMAN SHOW LINES
> The most popular type of GSD in Germany, the West German show lines are bred to conform to the SV standard which also requires the dog to gain health clearances for hips and elbows and a working title (often herding or IPO) along with their show title prior to being bred. The "look" of this type is very specific and typically very uniform, most commonly presented as a black and red saddle back.
> 
> AMERICAN / CANADIAN SHOW LINES
> ...


You can pretty much screw up any of the lines if you bring the dog up wrong. 

Thanks for the info my guy is a OS WG WL, he looks like the GSD's I remember growing up, although he may be bigger, then those dogs?? But I was smaller! 

I will say, yes he's a great family pet...now!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> You can pretty much screw up any of the lines if you bring the dog up wrong.


This is true.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> You can pretty much screw up any of the lines if you bring the dog up wrong.
> 
> Thanks for the info my guy is a OS WG WL, he looks like the GSD's I remember growing up, although he may be bigger, then those dogs?? But I was smaller!
> 
> I will say, yes he's a great family pet...now!


is this true? I thought so but people with experience keep saying that a dog with good genetics can't be messed up


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes, thanks, llomb. I can tell whoever wrote that has a soft spot for WGWL.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

It's from germanshepherdguide.com.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think any of the descriptions are that far off. The descriptions are pretty much the same across the board.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I dont like this wait till they mature at 3-4 years excuse. Sure the dog will get stronger from 1-3 years but if its showing certain concerning behaviors at 1 year and your particular about what you keep then you need to look at what the dogs showing you and be honest with yourself. 
For me by 2 years if the dog isnt able to handle and overcome significant pressure and stress its a wash. 

Many people will like the dog either way..and I get that.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Capt said:


> I thought this thread was starting to take a turn for the better, but upon further reading I was wrong.
> 
> Is it just this particular thread that has everyone all edgy or is it always like this?


I find this forum much better than the other GSD forums/working dog forums, in my opinion. The majority of people are very informative and professional. I've also found they don't sugarcoat things either, which I appreciate.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I dont like this wait till they mature at 3-4 years excuse. Sure the dog will get stronger from 1-3 years but if its showing certain concerning behaviors at 1 year and your particular about what you keep then you need to look at what the dogs showing you and be honest with yourself.
> For me by 2 years if the dog isnt able to handle and overcome significant pressure and stress its a wash.
> 
> Many people will like the dog either way..and I get that.


Ok, so because the dog didn't fight back with the older dog, does that make this dog a wash? What should the OP be looking for in this particular dog?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, thanks, llomb. I can tell whoever wrote that has a soft spot for WGWL.


Well that's where my guy falls but I did not see any bias? 

My guy cleaned my clock, tell I got my crap together! And I had a decade of experience with Bully breeds...that meant nothing with him!

I never recommend a GSD to anyone I know! And GSD's are always in the top 5 on the AKC most popular list?? 

I would be curious as to how many of those dogs are still in the original owners hands 3 years later??


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Ok, so because the dog didn't fight back with the older dog, does that make this dog a wash? What should the OP be looking for in this particular dog?


blitz is talking about sport or working dogs. if the dog is a pet who cares how it is as long as it isnt fearful.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I simply meant that there was a description of what the WGWL is good at, and a sentence about how they are the closest to what V. Stephanitz intended, whereas for the other lines there were descriptions of their origins.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My comments concerning maturity isn't so much adult maturity, but to get out of that puppy phase before putting pressure on the dog. So many people start pups in sport and don't let the puppy just be a puppy. 13 months is still immature mentally. 
I see two GSD's at training that are fairly decent dogs yet the owners have pushed them so quickly their shaky foundation shows. Now that they are maturing at 3 & they are now training with a knowledgeable experienced helper and coming along fine
~after failing trials more than once because the owners pushed them too fast.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Both of my dogs have WGWL heritage as well..


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

For me if you have to wait until 3 to get decent work out of the dog Im not interested. Its a failing, most dogs are retired by 8-9. You should have a good idea what you have by 12-14 months and be able to start serious training from that point (serious being establishing advanced obedience and bite work). Thats two extra years gone down the tube if your waiting till 3 probably another reason why Mals are so popular in work and sport. They can start young and last longer. Probably knowing the dutch because if they dont see certain tgings out of the dog early on it gets washed.

This late maturing thing is a failing I would hope people breed away from. I also believe many use it as an excuse. I have seen enough rocking two year olds to know what a good not great GSD can do early on. My personal dog is on the slower end of the spectrum imo, yet at 14 months she is capable of good IPO bitework and decent OB sufficient to achieve her BH.
I have no problem with people waiting till after 1 to start obedience because they want more dog..I will experiment with this with my new pup. However, thats not what I am talking about.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My dog is 75/25 DDR. At almost 16 months, he is still VERY puppy headed. He has a solid, stable temperament, but has some maturing to do in the decision making, impulse control area still.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OP, your dog is young. He will come into his own when he is mentally ready, though you may not like the day it happens. With the older dog being rough with him, when he does get tired of it, the results may be an all out fight.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Capt said:


> I thought this thread was starting to take a turn for the better, but upon further reading I was wrong.
> 
> Is it just this particular thread that has everyone all edgy or is it always like this?


Some are, some are not... we don't have to agree but we do have to be 'nice'. Remember we moderators are not on each thread all day so appreciate any Moderator Notifications for a 'heads up' when we return.

Thanks, :wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There are many articles in various magazines, GSD Quarterly , which did breeder interviews, SchH USA, Das Schaferhund Magazin etc that have interviews with the likes of Fuller, Biehler , Bennet -- 

using one of my old posts from http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/finding-right-puppy/167629-puppy-temperament.html "Some lines such as those that were very recent to U litter Kirschental took a long time to mature . Everything was there to see but not on full stream. 
Even Fritz Biehler and Glenn Bennett (name from the past ) who had Buck v d Pfalz (article GS Quarterly plus phone conversations) spoke of slow maturing , don't push them, then one day it is like a new dog .
One of the pain in the butts with the U Kirschental is that it the dog did not come into his maximum potential till they were around 3 years of age. 
Same with DDR dogs, some you just leave , and then work after when they are mature. 
Dogs can be ruined if they are fit into a format or agenda that is rigid by calendar .
This is NOT to say that they are lacking , meaning a deficit or negative , just that the "volume" is not on full blast.
Herding dogs traditionally had a long apprenticeship often not working till they were around 3 years , which is what was suggested in the article interview of Biehler . 

You have to have a feel for the animals" 

Breed genetics change by selection of early maturity -- prey drive develops before fight drive -- a survival mechanism !


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> My comments concerning maturity isn't so much adult maturity, but to get out of that puppy phase before putting pressure on the dog. So many people start pups in sport and don't let the puppy just be a puppy. 13 months is still immature mentally.
> I see two GSD's at training that are fairly decent dogs yet the owners have pushed them so quickly their shaky foundation shows. Now that they are maturing at 3 & they are now training with a knowledgeable experienced helper and coming along fine
> ~after failing trials more than once because the owners pushed them too fast.


Well that makes perfect sense to me!


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