# Nut Case?



## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

It is about time to schedule Boss to be neutered. As with any surgery there is an apprehension over things that can go wrong but the main reason I have been postponing scheduling the appointment is more due to a "loss of innocence". If I had to pick one word to describe Boss I would use the word happy. He has never had anything "bad" happen to him. Every dog he has met is friendly and plays with him, every person he has met is nice and pets him, never been sick, basically life has been just one big party to him. I can't help but picture him waking up after surgery in a strange place, not feeling well, parts missing, confused and thinking "holy crap, what the heck happened?". I cannot even imagine how parents can break it to innocent young kids that there is no santa claus or that bad things happen to good people, etc. Anyway, I was just wondering if others out there have felt this or if, no pun intended, I am the only nut case?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

He's a dog. He's going to wake up thinking that that toilet water he drank must have been a doozy, he'll be groggy for the day and then he'll shake it off and before you know it he'll be pestering you for food and treats and pushing toys into your lap. Remember that the testosterone will still be in his system for a few months, gradually waning, so he's not going to wake up sobbing into a box of tissues thinking about Steve and Jane breaking up on the latest soap opera. He can STILL impregnate a dog up to a few weeks after this surgery, btw.

So don't worry, he won't notice a difference. Dogs really aren't self-aware like we are. We wake up and notice we're missing a ball or a boob but dogs tend to not even notice a leg taken off and carry on like nothing happened.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why are you going to have him neutered????


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMHe's a dog. He's going to wake up thinking that that toilet water he drank must have been a doozy, he'll be groggy for the day and then he'll shake it off and before you know it he'll be pestering you for food and treats and pushing toys into your lap. Remember that the testosterone will still be in his system for a few months, gradually waning, so he's not going to wake up sobbing into a box of tissues thinking about Steve and Jane breaking up on the latest soap opera. He can STILL impregnate a dog up to a few weeks after this surgery, btw.
> 
> So don't worry, he won't notice a difference. Dogs really aren't self-aware like we are. We wake up and notice we're missing a ball or a boob but dogs tend to not even notice a leg taken off and carry on like nothing happened.


 you don't think a dog notices his leg is missing??? how do you know that????


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

Speaking of missing legs, my friend's boxer lost a leg, we all thought that life for him as we all knew it was over, in the beginning he was awkward and everyone had to take very serious care and attention with him, three years later, he acts as if he still has it. I think humans tend to dwell on the fact they lost something, I guess animals in general do not dwell at all or NOT that long at all and they get on with life for life it still yet to be had.

When ours was neutered were a nutcase as well, but it had to be done as one of his guys was still up in his stomach, so I guess you could say he had a spay and a neuter. We were scared for him, but we took comfort in the fact that our vet is excellent. And she took excellent care of him. So you not alone with the worries.


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

I've had 3 males neutered personally and adopted 2 that were already neutered. The three that I took 'for the ride' had very little down time and it didn't seem to change their attitudes or drives at all. Loki is the most happy go lucky pup that I've ever had and he was near feral when he got neutered and rescued. I think that there are so many dogs in need that I wouldn't want to add to that especially if I don't know anything about breeding...just my opinion.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*I* am always a nutcase when my kids go in for surgery. I worry about all the risks of surgery and anesthesia. The dogs? They're fine. They go into the vet's office, thinking they're just in to visit their friends (I've socialized them by dropping by the vet's office just to visit and get a treat frequently when they're pups. If you haven't done this already, do it once or twice.). Or maybe, at worst, a toenail trim. 

Ok, they hate toenail trims.

Frankly, when they wake up after surgery, I think they're relieved to be released to me without having their toenails cut.









Camper felt icky for a couple days, from the anesthesia. My other kids were raring to go by the next morning. My current pup came home from her spay 10 days ago stoned on morphine. She slept all night, and woke up ready to wrestle with her 85 lb adult GSD brother. She literally didn't miss a beat. 

The worst part for her was having to be calm for a few days, which meant being crated because she and Camper would have ripped her incision wide open. She's pretty much healed already, and they've been back to playing.

We'll hold your hand while Boss is in surgery. Start a thread and let us know when he's going in, when he comes out and how he's doing. You'll be the one that needs some extra TLC.







HE will do great. 

And my dogs' personalities never changed one bit.


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## LadyHawk (Jan 19, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMHe's a dog. He's going to wake up thinking that that toilet water he drank must have been a doozy, he'll be groggy for the day and then he'll shake it off and before you know it he'll be pestering you for food and treats and pushing toys into your lap.
> 
> So don't worry, he won't notice a difference. Dogs really aren't self-aware like we are. We wake up and notice we're missing a ball or a boob but dogs tend to not even notice a leg taken off and carry on like nothing happened.


I sometimes use Rescue remedy to keep them quiet after the surgery- it is a n herbal remedy that is proven effective on dogs, cats and people too 

Oh man Diana you made me laugh OUT LOUD there - 



I guess I have to add in this I have been in the ER and surgical rooms for MANY MANY spays and NEUTERS and when the come out (generally ) they are EXACTLY like you just described.. WOAH WHAT THE &*%$ just happened- ooh a chicken! 

OK?? 
Honestly please do not burden yourself that you are bringing your pup in to be tortured and stripped of his fur.... he will be handles with love and compassion by techs and vets that do this all day in and out - and love to wake up to go to work the next day to do more- Trust me- 
He will be in great hands and the earlier you have the procedure done the less time it takes for them to get over it....you're going to have a tough time keeping him quiet after the surgery....trust me.


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## LadyHawk (Jan 19, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedad
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DianaMHe's a dog. He's going to wake up thinking that that toilet water he drank must have been a doozy, he'll be groggy for the day and then he'll shake it off and before you know it he'll be pestering you for food and treats and pushing toys into your lap. Remember that the testosterone will still be in his system for a few months, gradually waning, so he's not going to wake up sobbing into a box of tissues thinking about Steve and Jane breaking up on the latest soap opera. He can STILL impregnate a dog up to a few weeks after this surgery, btw.
> ...



Because they adapt so much more quickly than we EVER will.......Dogs are some of THE most amazing creatures God ever thought to create. They can endure enormous pain and trauma and keep on going like nothing is wrong- run with three legs and keep up with their four legged counterparts..... and never bat a paw at it either!!!!!!!!!
DOGS RULE!!!!!!


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Exacxtly they go for a nice ride go to sleep for a while and wake up and some don't know the difference. They wonder why their owner is making such a big deal and in a few weeks they are back to the same old dog that just had his xxxx chop off. We seem to think to much into it than we should.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LadyHawk
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: doggiedad
> ...


because they can adapt quickly doesn't mean they done notice a missing leg. i think??


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

We have used the same great vet for 25 years so I know he will be in great hands. We have always had a multi dog household and will be again in the not too distant future and believe having them neutered/spayed helps keep the peace. We have stopped in often at the vets with Boss to weigh him and up till now he thinks it is great fun place to go with all the interesting smells and he likes to flirt with the vet techs. Young dogs go about life so carefree and as they age start to take life more serious. Like people. I just want Boss to keep his young innocent viewpoint of the world and I feel guilty raining on his parade. I am one to worry and place my human thoughts/emotions on my dogs and I do realize I will probably be more emotionally upset then him. But I bet the next time he has to return to the vet he will be a little more suspious about the place also... that first jaded viewpoint of the world. Thanks for the support - I'll suck it up and get the appointment scheduled.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Because dogs adapt well, I do not believe that means that they aren't aware. I don't think that they know exactly what has happened and the implications of what has happened, but they feel different, they associate the place that they wake up with that pain, they want to be where they feel safe, I believe that they have many of the same emotions that we have in those situation, just less information regarding what it all means. And then there are those wise dogs, that know more than we can possibly imagine, and they surprise us their knowing...

But the instinct of most dogs I suspect is survival, so I don't believe that they focus on what has happened, but what is happening. Instead of thinking of what they have been theough, I believe that they worry about the people they are watching walk around, the ache that they feel, and when they can be home again. 

When my girl was a pup, I made sure that we stopped by the vet often, just to get some cookies and use their scale. Then when we had a visit, or she had to stay there, she would be "among friends", so to speak. She comes with me now when I bring the GSD in for acunpuncture, so she hangs out and gets treats, and is comfortable there, to make the rougher vet visits easier. 

Now the GSD, is not so sensitive in those areas. He takes most things in stride, and honestly, I don't think that boy thinks so much, rather he just reacts. He is fine in most situations. The pain of separation for him is nearly as great than the pain of any basic procedure. 

But because they do adapt quickly, I think it's unfair to downplay their possible emotional or even physical response to these situations. On the flip side, once home and they know that things really haven't changed, most dogs are still the same pup, but yes, a little wiser. 

IMO.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

They don't cry over their lost limb, they don't search for it, they don't spend days depressed in bed with their favorite bonbons and heartwarming comedy flick, they just heal up and carry on! Never once does a tripod lead you to believe that they miss their leg. They can run just as fast and play just as hard. Of course we cannot get inside a dog's head, but it IS scientifically true (up to this point) that does are simply not self-aware, or at least not much at all.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM..... but it IS scientifically true (up to this point) that does are simply not self-aware, or at least not much at all.


And I have no clue what that means. 

What does it mean not to be self-aware? I agree that they don't obsess, though part of me even questions that -- haven't we all known dogs that have grieved so deeply that they lose themselves? Doesn't missing a partner to that extent require some level of self-awareness? Hasn't science, at some previous point, also stated that dogs do not have most of the emotions that all of us know that they have?

How would a tripod tell you that they miss their leg? Can they wake up and tell you that they dreamed about running on four legs after you have watched their legs twitch and heard their dream whimpers while sleeping? 

I honestly haven't a clue either way, but I think that we humans make a lot of assumptions.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Very true, Lisa. Science can only show so much up to this point (hence the attempt at careful wording in my post







) but the mirror test is a clue. The mirror test is under debate, but where a dog would either ignore or try to play/fight with the "other dog" in the mirror, higher primates would set to work checking themselves out in the mirror just like we do. Now if there is a known case of a dog treating the mirror as what it is and not another animal in the room, I'll gladly say that some dogs just may be a lot more self-aware than we think.

Anyway, I think that would be a great discussion for another thread so we don't hijack this one. I'll start one off in General.









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=874741&page=0#Post874741

There, now we can end the Nut Case threadjack.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:When my girl was a pup, I made sure that we stopped by the vet often, just to get some cookies and use their scale. Then when we had a visit, or she had to stay there, she would be "among friends", so to speak. She comes with me now when I bring the GSD in for acunpuncture, so she hangs out and gets treats, and is comfortable there, to make the rougher vet visits easier.
> 
> Now the GSD, is not so sensitive in those areas. He takes most things in stride, and honestly, I don't think that boy thinks so much, rather he just reacts. He is fine in most situations. The pain of separation for him is nearly as great than the pain of any basic procedure.


This, I believe, is very important.

If I wake up groggy and in some pain, but my dear friend that I've known your WHOLE life -- well, I don't recall ever not knowing her, or now that you think about it, any of these great people -- is petting my ears just the right way and offering me a fresh bowl of cold water and a delicious snack of lamb lung (how do they always have my favorite snacks here?), then gosh, what's a little bit of pain? 

I'm warm; wrapped in snuggly thick comforters (they warm the comforters just for me, although I don't know that), surrounded by people I love almost as much as Mom and Dad; I just had a nice snack; I'm not hungry anymore; and this place is almost like home. 

And Dr B said that Mom will be here soon to pick me up. I like Dr. B. I remember I met her when I was a teeny tiny puppy, and she said I was a perfect puppy. I'll never forget that.

Ouch, that hurt just a bit. Dr. B said I'll sleep now... 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

<span style="color: #3333FF"> I know my dog (and my previous dogs) know exactly that the reflection in the mirror is her. How do I know this?



If she sees a dog on Tv or the computer she will bark, she doesn't bark at her own reflection or the reflections of our fosters.We have those "strip" mirrors on one wall of our living room. Even when I say,look there's a puppy (pointing to her reflection) she isn't fooled by it.

It's also interesting to note, that she prefers other black german shepherds over any other breed or a different color shepherd. When we go to a meet and greet she will run right over to a black shep. She also shows preference to other shepherds, she is much more accepting of them,than another breed.


To stay on topic,I think that the dogs may notice something's missing,but I don't think they dwell on it.</span>


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Jazzstorm ....It's also interesting to note, that she prefers other black german shepherds over any other breed or a different color shepherd. When we go to a meet and greet she will run right over to a black shep. She also shows preference to other shepherds, she is much more accepting of them,than another breed.....


Indy has always had a preference for GSDs, and that's why I think that it was so easy to bring Max into the house several years ago. However, she does not like white dogs....

Heck, I know it's a slight hijack, but the thread was about Nut Cases, wondering whether dogs really do notice these things.....I guess I fit in the nutcases


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom........
> 
> If I wake up groggy and in some pain, but my dear friend that I've known your WHOLE life -- well, I don't recall ever not knowing her, or now that you think about it, any of these great people -- is petting my ears just the right way and offering me a fresh bowl of cold water and a delicious snack of lamb lung (how do they always have my favorite snacks here?), then gosh, what's a little bit of pain?
> 
> ...



oh, just makes me want to go hug the dogs right now...

too bad I'm at work!


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

<span style="color: #3333FF">I know my dog's will miss a certain toy or chew and search for that particular thing. I guess if it's a body part they realize after awhile it's not coming back (or around) </span>


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

The original thread was about a dogs mental health... but the scope of the mental health topic has diffinately broadened. 

My initial post was actually regarding a dogs expectations. If only good things happen every day to a dog isn't that what they would continue to expect? Then one day they wake up to the real world and learn bad things do happen. From that time forward do they still have on "rose colored glasses" always expecting only good things or do they start to stop and say hmm.... and actually consider there is an alternative outcome? Compared to the other extreme of a dog that is beat every day and it's expectations

But, since other topics have come up, I'll give my 2 cents. 

I do believe they are aware if a part goes missing but do adapt very quickly and not dwell on the loss. 

I do think they have a self awareness. They know and have a pride in how they look. If they are dressed up funny and laughed at they carry themselves different... not head up, strutting proud. 

Mine too have always seemed to play easier with another GSD. Like they already know the rules of the game and don't have to discuss it. 

We may need a Mental Health category started. If not for the dogs mental health then for the humans mental health. I am always trying to get into their heads.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i love you. you are really out there with this dog stuff. you are the Darwin of dogs. you are the Einstein of anthropomorphism. you are my Guru in the world of Dogs.


> Originally Posted By: DianaMVery true, Lisa. Science can only show so much up to this point (hence the attempt at careful wording in my post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

When you are talking to your sig other about your dogs (plural), and you start talking about the one with the hurt leg needing to see the vet, and all the others ignore the conversation, and the one with the hurt leg shows that she understands that it is she that is being spoken about, if this is a repeatable experiment, with more than one dog, does this not point to a level of self awareness?

As for the mirror test -- I did not say that dogs have the same level of self-awareness as we do. We certainly function on a different level. But to say that because they don't function at the level of a human or a primate means that they are not self aware at all, I think is a leap.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTWhen you are talking to your sig other about your dogs (plural), and you start talking about the one with the hurt leg needing to see the vet, and all the others ignore the conversation, and the one with the hurt leg shows that she understands that it is she that is being spoken about, if this is a repeatable experiment, with more than one dog, does this not point to a level of self awareness?
> 
> As for the mirror test -- I did not say that dogs have the same level of self-awareness as we do. We certainly function on a different level. But to say that because they don't function at the level of a human or a primate means that they are not self aware at all, I think is a leap.


i'm lost, what are you talking about?? i gave a reply to a post by DianaM.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It wasn't necessarily addressed to you.....just towards the general topic. Sorry I used the "general you", which didn't read well!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTWhen you are talking to your sig other about your dogs (plural), and you start talking about the one with the hurt leg needing to see the vet, and all the others ignore the conversation, and the one with the hurt leg shows that she understands that it is she that is being spoken about, if this is a repeatable experiment, with more than one dog, does this not point to a level of self awareness?


I think so. My adult dogs know when they are being discussed as the subject of the conversation. Camper will stop what he's doing, tilt his head and listen. 

I can send one to go get another. He knows which dog is Zamboni and which is Meri, which says to me that he has an awareness of each of his pack mates as distinct individuals as well. 

Here is some awareness that I don't know how to label. In class the other night, Meri refused to lie down. She knows now to do it; she just wouldn't. She barked at me instead. (sigh...). So I did the common enough technique of standing on the leash and applying very light downward pressure, which usually shows the dog where you want her to go. She pitched a fit, screaming bloody murder, but did lie down. The rest of the night, she worked with her back toward me. 

When we worked on down stays, all the other dogs in class lay on their mats, facing their owners. Meri lay on her mat, facing the wall. When we worked on fast sits and downs, Meri followed my commands, but faced the instructor, not me. No matter what she was asked to do, she was willing to perform the command, but she very clearly turned her back to me and then did the command. (It was very notable and everyone, including the instructors, were snickering.)

My 7 month old puppy was clearly annoyed, and she was communicating that as effectively as if she had taken out a billboard. And she did this for over 45 minutes. She was obedient, but obstinant. 

What is communication if not our desire to convey our awareness to others?

And my pup was communicating with me. And I know what she was saying:


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom.....
> 
> What is communication if not our desire to convey our awareness to others?
> 
> And my pup was communicating with me. And I know what she was saying:


LOL, and an excellent communicator she is!!

ahhhh....I miss having a puppy


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## rocky30 (Feb 25, 2008)

my dog was neutered today when we got home he went and layed down in ones spot and hasnt moved is this ok.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bearcat, if you have any concerns you should call your vet, but I expect he's sleeping off the sedation.


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