# Does anyone own 2 female GSD's?



## 0pusX (Jul 21, 2012)

We have Bella, 1 year old, VERY shy and timid.

We have the opportunity to get her a playmate, Shelby (4 months olds, female)

My question is, what concerns/challenges are there with owning 2 females?

I really want another GSD because I think it might help Bella come out of her shyness shell. 

Any feedback would be appreciated!!!


Thanks!!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Two females - challenges and concerns:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/140526-two-female-gsd.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...94-dominance-between-my-two-females-help.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/169478-2-females-one-house-bad-idea.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tt-female-gsd-owners-can-2-live-together.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/244402-2-females.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/104474-2-females-same-household-issues.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-female-pups-get-along-other-female-dogs.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/137560-multiple-females.html



> I really want another GSD because I think it might help Bella come out of her shyness shell.


Stop this mindset - one dog will not magically improve another shy and nervy dog - you are more likely to make the new one worse as she is younger and will mirror the older female. 

It is up to YOU to socialize, manage, contain, and train your timid female. The introduction of a baby puppy is not going to change a genetically shy, nervy, and spooky dog - she is who she is and you must work around this issue. Training and socialization is up to you - not another dog. 

It is possible that Bella can be socialized and trained to overcome her issues and increase confidence, but you will have to accept the fact that she might be that way *genetically* - meaning this is just who she is and all the training in the world might not change her core temperament. 

In this case, it is an issue of management and containment. I have had genetically spooky dogs - once it became clear they will not change and this is their base temperament, I focused on management and containment - made life comfortable for the dog and myself - but I did not expect anything further than what the dog was genetically capable of....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Stop this mindset - one dog will not magically improve another shy and nervy dog - you are more likely to make the new one worse as she is younger and will mirror the older female.


Only if another dog gives her security. But that does not happen over night. 

It worked with Yukon but he knew the female since he was a pup, so she gave him Security and it helped him heal. His issues were not genetic though.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think it is a good idea to let one nervy puppy raise another baby puppy....
I don't think it is a good idea for puppies to raise each other period.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

A 1 year old isn't going to 'raise' the other. The new pup will have her own personality and it won't be affected by the current pup. If the new pup has a sound temperament it may become the alpha dog, I stress 'may'. The current dog, if overly timid, will likely have problems dealing with an open, inquisitive puppy and take the pup's playfulness as threatening. My opinion is that, with a LOT of supervision, they could become friends. But I wouldn't assume it will happen. If you really want to try it, make sure you can return the pup after a month if it doesn't work out within that period. A pup that young won't be 'damaged' by only one month's stay.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I don't think it is a good idea to let one nervy puppy raise another baby puppy....
> I don't think it is a good idea for puppies to raise each other period.


Agreed. It is not a good idea. If the dog has shortcomings, a puppy is not the way to go. In my boys case, both dogs were adult dogs and already knew each other.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*We have two females*

I am not the expert, so all I can do is tell you what we have done and how we went about it.

Our oldest is almost 10, the other is 3 and a half. We intentionally waited untill our first girl was 5 years plus. She is not shy or nerveous. She dominated the pup. She punished the pup from time to time by not letting her eat, taking toys etc, but not often. The pup always submitted to the older girl untill about six months ago. Now the yonger one is dominant, but only in the play area. Other than that, neither appears to dominate the other, but you get the feeling the younger one has taken over. The transition has been smooth, with neither dog ever going over the line. We nevr let rough play get out of hand, and they both always understood that. They both know the "leave it" command. (Important!)

We have probably been lucky. Both dogs are mentally sound, so it may not be the best example.

The previous post's sound very good to me. May not be what youu want to hear, but they are probably right.

Good luck.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we don't know what this shy, very timid dog does to cope in social situations. Does she slink away and avoid being in a socially complex dynamic. Does she show her distress by reacting with fearful barking , aggressive behaviour.
The problem is the younger dog will learn how to behave from the older dog . 
Also , the younger dog who hopefully is stable may take advantage of the older dogs weakness and lord it over her grinding her confidence down even more. Or the older dog may be stressed and cow the young pup creating issues . Either dynamic giving you what you did not intend , did not want , two dogs with problems.

qbchottu said it perfectly.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Pooky44 said:


> The new pup will have her own personality and it won't be affected by the current pup.


This is not true. I've seen it happen over and over again. Bring a puppy into a home with a shy/nervous/fearful dog and if the new puppy doesn't get to socialize and experience the world on its own, it adopts the behavior of the older dog.

I have two females. The second is fearful. They got along well from 5 months to 2 years old (the older one is 3 years older) and the older one even mothered the younger until she matured and starting pushing her boundaries. Since I know that my oldest female doesn't like to be tested, their time together is now limited and very closely supervised to prevent issues. 

Your oldest is not yet an adult and you haven't fully seen her true personality. It is always a bad a idea to get a new dog "for" the current dog. I think you should wait and work on the relationship between you and the current dog to help her gain more confidence.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

OpusX, If you don't have Bella in training, I'd suggest checking out Roni for some help. She's in Edwardsburg, not Elkhart> Elkhart Indiana Dog Trainer - Dog Obedience - Dog Behavior Problems - Pet Training
Agree with Jamie~ on the same gender issue, but genetics usually will trump the behavior influence. 
I have a female with weaker nerves and brought in a pup with stable nerves, he was not influenced at all w/ the other dogs temperament.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Echo had terrible hereditary shyness. During his lifetime I introduced puppies/adults into our family because I wanted them ... they were NOT for Echo ... none of them were influential with his behavior... only hundreds of hours of hard work helped Echo overcome his poor temperament problems. 

GOOD LUCK!!!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

The new pup can absolutely pick up your dogs good or bad behavior. I thank our GSD Chazzy for teaching Apache to be afraid of thunder. Kiya also learned to fear thunder until we got Lakota, when she saw that Lakota didn't hide in the bathroom during a storm she stayed in the livingroom. Apache has a habit of getting all riled up when I say were going out, he barks at Kiya and tries to play. Now Lakota is doing that to him.
You are better off getting a male if you have a female. It can work with 2 females. Kiya & Lakota are bff's she never bonded with Apache like that. They have a love/hate relationship.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Genes will be the main influence on the new pup's personality. Your current dog can only influence the new pup if the new pup has the same tendencies.
I am one of 11 children and we all have our own personalities. Just because an older sibling acted or reacted a certain way did not majorly influence the characteristics of the younger ones. Why should dogs be different?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Monkey see monkey do.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I have 2 female GSD's BUT I got the second when my first was over 4 years old. I would NOT add another pup until I've got my older one practically perfect. So much easier to work with one dog at a time.

Fact is that puppies really learn from the dogs around them. Pups with fearful moms end up fearful themselves.... so I'm thinking you are setting yourself up for 2 dogs with issues rather than just being able to focus and help your current dog.


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## 0pusX (Jul 21, 2012)

I should have given more detail.

When I say she is shy I mean around people. As far as other dogs she seems to be fine. She goes to doggie "daycare" weekly and gets along great with other dogs. She just is hesitant to let strangers per her and will bark and bark when someone comes into our yard or comes to the door. 

I mainly want her to have a non-human playmate as well as our family to play with. 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Bella will gain more from watching an older, stable dog. If you want playtime, look for just that, _playtime_ with a dog you _know_ will set that positive example and skip owning a second dog until you have Bella sorted out.

Advice from a rescuer who has had success with this tactic, but also suffering the stresses of taking on more dogs than she could handle at one time. _One_ dog with issues in the home is definitely enough! And I agree with those who say a fresh new pup will take a cue from your older, existing dog.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

The devil is in the details.
An unsound dog will not make a sound dog unsound.
A sound dog will not make an unsound dog sound.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Once we had GSD and Scottish collie, and I remember their behaviour very well. We had got them as puppies with the only difference of tree months. My younger sister wanted her own dog, but it happened that it was me who had to experience jealosy of two growing females. Hardly could I call them friends. Both hated competition, Eva wouldn't run if I threw the ball for Berry who run first, I had to hold Berry by her collar in order to let the other dog exercise. Only one of them was running after me into water, while the other one was waiting on the bank. And so with every game. They slept different places, and they ate in different rooms, this time Eva didn't want give way to Berry and tried to eat her mate's meal first and her own after. But it was a different story with them in the street. They exhibited "girlies' cooperation" rather quickly whenever it came to drawing away other dogs.
Finally, we made a terrible mistake: we decided that Eva should have puppies. Berry survived several attacks, was nearly killed before we moved her to our friend for a while. Both, and Berry, and Eva lived long lives, were loved and cared, and we tried our best training them. Of course, I often bethink of happier moments, but let me tell you - there is no garantee you won't repeat my story.


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## Joshlaska (May 2, 2013)

Get a male puppy. 

We have 4 females and 2 males. Females not getting along is far more common. We've had a few scraps here and there.

Many experts say you should never leave two female dogs unattended ever - it has nothing to do with training, it is all hormonal and instinct.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pooky44 said:


> The devil is in the details.
> An unsound dog will not make a sound dog unsound.
> A sound dog will not make an unsound dog sound.


Actually, I don't think this sounds very sound. 

Bringing in a pup to a household with a stable dog, can make for two stable dogs. But that depends on a lot of variables. We determine stability based on behavior. And behavior can be influenced by leadership and experiences. A stable dog that has been experiencing good leadership who has a bad experience will recover and remain stable. A stable dog that has been experiencing poor leadership and has a bad experience may not recover as readily and if his reaction is reacted to by the unstable leader, the behavior may continue/increase and the the dog's stability might be challenged. 

The chances are if a household has a stable dog, then they probably have a dog that has good genetics and good leadership. And bringing in a puppy to this situation can allow the pup to be all it can be in a positive way.

Young puppies are highly influenced by the people and the animals that they are closest to. If you are walking a puppy and a large aggressive-looking dog approaches and you tighten your lead and are anxious about what will happen, the puppy is likely to react from your signals. 

If you are walking the puppy with an older shy dog, and an individual approaches and the shy dog reacts, the puppy will pick up on that and your reaction as well. 

On the other hand if you are walking your stable dog and your pup, and a person approaches, and your stable dog is acting properly, it will rub off on the pup. Because the pup gets his confidence from his pack. 

Pups get their confidence from the dam and litter. And when they are taken out of the litter, they transfer that to their new pack. Yes you can have a confident puppy, but they still require an environment that they can trust and feel safe in. A confident puppy CAN be made less so by poor handling or by situations where reactions that are not appropriate are happening. 

I would not be surprised if this is the same in people. A child raised by a psychofrenic personality is going to have some skewed thinking that will come out in their behavior and outlook on life even if they do not share the care-giver's problem. 

And on top of that we are talking two females, which can go ok, and can go very wrong. 

This does not mean everyone with a shy dog needs to wait until that dog is dead to get a pup. But you have to go into it with your eyes open and limit possible problems by socializing and training the puppy separately. If you get a dog for you, not your dog, then you can possibly manage two dogs, one with an issue and get good results with the second. But I would go with a male, and I would wait until the current dog is fully mature -- 3 years old minimum. And I would have a plan for the puppy which includes a plan for socialization, training, leadership, play and purpose.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

selzer said:


> Actually, I don't think this sounds very sound.
> This does not mean everyone with a shy dog needs to wait until that dog is dead to get a pup. But you have to go into it with your eyes open and limit possible problems by socializing and training the puppy separately. If you get a dog for you, not your dog, then you can possibly manage two dogs, one with an issue and get good results with the second. But I would go with a male, and I would wait until the current dog is fully mature -- 3 years old minimum. And I would have a plan for the puppy which includes a plan for socialization, training, leadership, play and purpose.


Sound advice


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

not all gsds like to be pet by strangers? many don't, many gsds will bark when in the yard also.. You don't need another puppy. Your dog does not need to like strangers petting her either.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Is this 2 topics in 1?
Get a companion for my shy dog who is good with dogs.
Will playing with a new puppy make my shy dog less shy with people?


Lost track of the reason for this thread.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 2 females, one a GSD and the other a Samoyed mix, then I have my male golden. My oldest female is almost 9, so she was about 7 when I brought in the female GSD, to be honest I was afraid and prayed it would work. I based it off the fact that the oldest one is good tempered and lets anything into the house. It has worked fine with no problems. Now I am getting another GSD and I'm going for a male in the litter, but if there are no males, I would consider a female, based on my present GSD's personality and temperament and based on the fact that the temperament of the puppy will be sound because I know where its coming from. I don't think I would ever bring in a female that was a rescue and I didn't know anything about, that would be to risky IMO. Mine will be about 2 when I bring in the next one, but she is really good with other dogs and she is very playful, so I believe any sex I bring in would be okay, but I would try my hardest to balance it out so there are no problems later on. I have had other dogs in and out of the house since I have had the GSD, but now that I think about it, they were all males and there was never a problem.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

It does not matter how sound the 2 dogs are or how well they are bred. 2 female gsds from all sorts of temperaments and lines will end up wanting to kill each other. Its just bad luck. Thats why a male is so much better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

pets4life said:


> It does not matter how sound the 2 dogs are or how well they are bred. 2 female gsds from all sorts of temperaments and lines will end up wanting to kill each other. Its just bad luck. Thats why a male is so much better.


I agree with this, except that I would say may instead of will end up wanting to kill each other, and it is something that you cannot determine at eight weeks of age. You almost have to wait until the younger bitch is fully mature to have a good feeling that things will be fine. That first heat cycle happens when the pup is still a teenager, it is not until bitches are 2 or 3 before they might suddenly hate each other. 

It really does not matter what line of dog it is, and even bitches with soft temperaments might HATE another bitch enough to kill her. I agree with the temperament thing being variable.

I think you are most likely to have trouble when the bitches are close in age and power, or when you have a younger bitch who is clearly more dominant toward the other dogs than the older bitch. That can go really bad. 

Pet owners generally are not up to musical crates and ensuring bitches are separate but equal. Two bitches is often setting an owner up for failure rather than success, and if the current bitch has serious issues, that almost assures that it will not turn out good.


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## 0pusX (Jul 21, 2012)

Pooky44 said:


> Is this 2 topics in 1?
> Get a companion for my shy dog who is good with dogs.
> Will playing with a new puppy make my shy dog less shy with people?
> 
> ...


Oh I'm sorry I didn't know there was an internet rule about how you can only address one topic in a thread. Better call the message board police.

I dont see what is so hard to grasp for you.

My current dog gets along with dogs but is shy around people.

I want to get her a companion to play with as well as POSSIBLY help her with her shyness around people. I.....guess.......that's confusing?!?!?

Regardless, if you aren't going to positively contribute to something stay out of it.


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## 0pusX (Jul 21, 2012)

I want to take this time to thank everyone that has POSITIVELY contributed to my thread. I appreciate everyone's input and have decided to consult the professional in this case, our Vet. 

She, herself, has 3 females, and said that yes it is possible for there to be a conflict, that same conflict is also possible in male/male male/female households.

Thank you all for your time and assistance.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

pets4life said:


> It does not matter how sound the 2 dogs are or how well they are bred. 2 female gsds from all sorts of temperaments and lines will end up wanting to kill each other. Its just bad luck. Thats why a male is so much better.


Not always true if you do it right. In the beginning I have done it wrong and mine have fought. 

However, once I figured it out, it worked like a charm. 

A. Crate Fighting during/after protection or search work has caused so much tension between the dogs that a fight was inevitable. It was an easy fix.

B. I have let others play with the girls which every time led to a fight the same day. 

C. Once you know the personalities of the dogs and you figured out the triggers, you can eleminate them. 

Meanwhile, I have no more fights. Girls get along better than ever. 

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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree it wont always work out bad but when it turns out bad it really turns out bad from what I have seen. ALso Noticed like selzer said things are fine until both bitches are totally mature. They can even be bff until then. When they do decide to fight for real and you are by yourself what a horrible situation. I have heard of people on other forums having 2 female shepherds face locked having to throw them in the pool to break them up? 

To the op what breed is your vet talking about? I find gsd when both females is much harder to work out than lets say a female gsd and a female pug would be. JMHO From what i have seen my dog will clash with female shepherds much faster than other breeds that are more mild mannered softer and more submissive.

My male samoyed was the best family dog i ever had growing up. A lot of other breeds will back off and just let them female shep be the queen. But like others said not all female shepherds have a high self importance just a lot do lol They just seem to like to be the number one female in the house and have their way. This premadonna type personality is why i like them so much. lol


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i have 2 females and a male here, with a visiting female every other weekend. it really depends on the dogs personalities and the owners.. all my females and the visiting one get along fine.. the male is the issue.. he doesnt play nice with others so he has to be monitored and separated when we leave.

i have had male/male/female dogs with female fosters and female/female/male dogs with female fosters and it really boils down to personalities. i have a dominant male here so all females i choose are more submissive to him and each other.. i prefer calmer less dominant females due to the dominant male here(male/.female can fight just as much as female/female or male/male)

you are better off with an Adult dog- what you see is what you get personality wise whereas a pup might not show right away its true personality. an adult dog is easier to read then a pup. i have had submissive pups mature into dominant dogs so it can go either way with a pup.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

0pusX said:


> Oh I'm sorry I didn't know there was an internet rule about how you can only address one topic in a thread. Better call the message board police.
> 
> I dont see what is so hard to grasp for you.
> 
> ...


Yes, it was confusing. I don't understand how a new puppy will help an older dog become less shy with people. Many people chimed in and suggested that the older dog would influence the behavior of the new puppy.
My positive contribution is that you should make your original post more complete in the details of what you are trying to accomplish and how you are going about it.
I hope you are successful in making your 1 year old less shy. I have a shy dog and found that a great deal of socialization and exposure to people on
a daily basis worked. She started out quite shy and now is a friendly dog, happy to meet people. She is still somewhat shy of other dogs but will make
friends if she feels they are non-threatening.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

0pusX said:


> Oh I'm sorry I didn't know there was an internet rule about how you can only address one topic in a thread. Better call the message board police.
> 
> I dont see what is so hard to grasp for you.
> 
> ...


OpusX - this tone is not necessary - you don't correct another poster (who probably has been more positive than most in this thread) when they are simply asking for clarification. You post on a forum, you will get responses that vary. 
Jean
Admin

As for the girls, which sounds like you trust what your vet says, girls reach maturity at 2-3 and that's when you know more of what your living situation will be like with them. To me, that's very important - whether or not they will enjoy each other in the long term. I have found female GSDs that are middle of the road or "lower" in terms of their delusions of grandeur, are easier to live together with than my mixes of the same level of grandeur, so at least there is that. My mixes though are more combative than GSDs - like someone said a couple of dogs bred to be lap dogs - literally - can make it easier. But a female GSD who thinks highly of herself  and her status can be a handful to say the least! 

Right now I have a young male dog with a strong social aspect to his temperament (appropriate for his breed mixes - would be an overly social GSD to my mind). I took him out alone, or with a social foster dog, for months before introducing outings where we would be around people with my pathologically (I say it in a loving way) frightened 9 year old female mix. I hoped in doing so that I would cement his reactions to people and also get him through the various fear stages he would be going through as a largely previously unsocialized dog, before he saw how she reacted to people. I also didn't want to make it totally his job to "take care" of her, because that would take some of his fun out of things, and I need to be sure to be the being that my dog looks to for reassurance, because I have the monkey brain and the thumbs - and theoretically will lead her better than a dog who eats poop on occasion. 

I personally would recommend this kind of protocol, in addition to working with your current dog, if you were to decide to get a younger dog. I've done more obedience with my 9 year old dog, which does ratchet up her confidence. I would still get a male, because multiple young females who get along can grow into females who do not. 

I would also join this group: shy-k9s : shy-k9s if only to read the archives.


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## 0pusX (Jul 21, 2012)

Dear Admin and other members,

I believe there may be some misunderstanding in my two prior posts. When I say that somebody positively contributed to this thread I don't necessarily mean they agree with my potential decision to purchase another female GSD.

When I say someone positively contributes to the thread, I mean they constructively add information, whether it be positive or negative to my potential decision to have two female GSD's.

I got the feeling that people misunderstood me to mean someone that positively contributes to the thread would only be in agreement with my potential decision.

Actually to the contrary, I was in fact looking for both agreeable and not agreeable information to help me make my decision. I cherish and take to heart the information that was provided by all members that contributed with useful information to my request.

What I did not appreciate was somebody coming into the thread offering no constructive information or opinion at all but rather making a in-needed statement or an attempt to belittle the post as addressing more than one issue in the original post.

Again I think everyone that gave me both agreeable and non-agreeable information towards my original post.

I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank everyone again and clarify what I meant by "positively "contributing to this post.

Thank you


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There was an excellent point about what dog-breed or breeds your vet is familiar with. Many breeds and mixes of various breeds pack up better than GSDs do. 

I think that you can make multiple females work, even with GSDs, if you have the right personality for that. I think you have to be a strong, fearless, and fair leader with plenty of energy to exercise the dogs, and committment to training. And everyone thinks they know dogs are dogs and not people, even people with foo foo dogs that they put tu tus on and let eat off of their fork _think _that they understand the dog is a dog and they are treating it like a dog, and more important, interpreting the dog's behaviors and body language with respect to their being a dog. But if you want two female GSDs, then you _really_ have to be clear on this point. GSD bitches are fast, strong, merciless when fighting, don't know quit, they can show amazing patience, and they are very intelligent. In short, they can wait until the timing is right to go to town on the other female. People have literally come home to blood baths where one bitch was dead and the other bitch needed to be euthanized. 

If a bitch does fight with the other, and a human gets bitten breaking them up, you have to be able to accept that this is the fault of the humans involved, not the dogs, and you cannot hold it against the dogs for chomping down on human flesh during such an situation. 

Unfortunately, as often as not, people get two females, they start fighting, and the people are totally unequiped to manage them. They are unwilling or unable to crate/rotate; or they have kids, and it is dangerous to always have the possibility fo the dog fight, sometimes after witnessing the power and aggression their bitch is capable of, the owners may feel ill-equiped to manage the dog. And often this sums up to one or both females being rehomed or worse. I think the advice on this thread, for he most part, is given with the understanding that IF these bitches do decide to fight, they will be in a very precarious position.


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## Joshlaska (May 2, 2013)

pets4life said:


> ALso Noticed like selzer said things are fine until both bitches are totally mature. They can even be bff until then. When they do decide to fight for real and you are by yourself what a horrible situation. I have heard of people on other forums having 2 female shepherds face locked having to throw them in the pool to break them up?


I've been here. 2 girls that were BFF's all of the time. Did everything together. Played all of the time. Then one day everything switched. Getting them apart was disastrous.

Luckily, we live in Alaska and it was around zero degrees, so I had a lot of clothes on. I just fell on the fight and worked until I ended it. No major damage, I had a couple of real good bite bruises.

We keep fire extinguishers around in case there was ever a fight again. 

It's hormones. Not dangerous or aggressive dogs. Just hormones.

Males, I think, are easier, but I LOVE my females. 

Good luck picking out your pup!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Those who have seen two females fight will tell you there is nothing like it. I had a bitch fight when I was in another country - a stray female in heat sneaked in when someone left the gate open and another female (I knew was bitch aggressive) was out of the pens - they locked eyes and it was just like two freight trains colliding. I was punching my female to get her to unlock from the other - no chance - was like a vice grip. When we finally got her to out, it was like mangled meat - I found pieces of the other dog in my dog's fur - I will never forget it. I felt terrible - it was nobody's fault, but it happened and it will always be there with me. 

Here's the funny thing about it - that female was the friendliest thing you ever saw as a pup. She *loved* all other dogs. Played with bitches, raised with bitches, lived alongside bitches...and suddenly at 2 years, she decided it was over and every other bitch had to die. Why? I don't know. :shrug:

But this is how females can be. After that female and the incident with the stray, I take females very seriously. I don't let them free roam without supervision, I rarely let them together after they reach maturity (around 2 years), I don't expect females to get along (got three now, soon 4, all intact, one bitch aggressive, so I take this seriously), they are housed separately - I am realistic about the situation. I also would _never_ house a new pup with a nervy older pup hoping for an improvement in nerve - concentrate on developing and maturing the older one properly - get a new dog when you are ready and when you need a new dog. 

You have to be realistic and up to the realization that it might not always work out. This is why people are recommending a male - one that I would wait on till you are done training and socializing the current one further...


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I've been watching this thread, and have a question. I didn't see it, but may have missed it being addressed. What is the effect if both girls are spayed, and if spaying early or later makes a difference? Does having one spayed make a difference?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I have had my spayed female mix and intact female get into a scuffle - only reason it didn't go further is because the spayed one backed down quickly - had to be separated after a year of no issues living together. To the point where the intact one would not walk by the spayed female in the crate without snarling and growling. The same intact female will frolic and play with any female out there with no problem on neutral outside ground. Only problem is she didn't tolerate that female any longer in her living area.

Depends on the dogs involved and how the relationship between them evolves...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It does depend on the dogs. My two spayed females get along ok, because one is submissive to the other. 
IF she decides to challenge, there will be a fight, I've stepped in more than a few times when things get escalating.
I know they hold grudges....where males will just forgive and forget more often.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If I reading thru this all properly...

It seems like the real problem/issue is a dog that is timid around people. And the question is would adding another dog help (female preferred).

For me, I would rather NOT add another dog into a home that is already having an issue that needs to be fixed. Because while I agree that a rock solid older dog that enjoys being around people would probably help..... the locating of that perfect rock solid older dog would just add ANOTHER problem to my life.

There are so many things I can do do help my pup if she's having issues. Instead of putting the burden/cure on a new dog :wub: 

I have friends with rock solid dogs and would prefer to make playdates/walking dates with those friends and those dogs for my pup to cue off of (and then not have to take an extra dog home). There are tons of behaviorist if I felt I needed to go that route. But much of the time just signing up with some great positive based dog classes are a huge help. Finding puppy clicker classes would be perfect. Clicker training has been shown to be a huge confidence boost for fearful shelter/abused puppies so a normal tentative pup would do well.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-intro-clicker-training-perfect-puppies.html

:wub:


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Until the passing of our B'EL we had three intact females in our house. Three generations. Never any issues in regard to their compatibility.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya just never can tell. Arwen was fine unless she was pregnant, then everything remotely possible of being a threat had to die. She attacked Jenna her 1-year-old daughter, but when Babs - also 1 at the time, got into the whelping box while she was outside on day 2 of having puppies (may stupidity), she came in, Babs stepped out like she was babysitting, and there was no issue. I thought I would have a stroke though. 

Jenna is my best bitch out of Arwen, and she has been with her young adult pups up through her pregnancy until I separated them at the last week. She doesn't fight -- not unless attacked, then she will finish it. 

Ninja is a crazy cub out of Babsy. She will be 5 this year, and is the only one stupid enough to have attacked Jenna. She paid, and getting them apart -- Jenna took hold of her muzzle and wouldn't let go. I dragged her to a kennel and got it between the two of them and finally I was able to get Jenna to out. 

Bitch fights are awful. And seeing a dog you love cut and bleeding, getting hurt, or hurting another dog is horrible. 

I have been fortunate. I learned very early how to manage them, and lapses of security are few and far between. 

Spaying a bitch can make them more aggressive/reactive because they have in their hormones something that actually gives calming signals. But, they are 'bitchier' when they are in heat/pregnant, so I think if you spay both bitches before they ever fight, it can work to your advantage. 

But after there had been blood between bitches, years can go by and those bitches can go after eachother at the first opportunity. 

Don't underestimate bitches.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

With my girls it was over a ball. A friend was over and threw the ball for the whole pack a couple of times. Nala was is faster and more agile than Indra. 
Then they got fed. After feeding I cleaned out the bowls, when I heard some commotion. It sounded like playing but there was something else. I ran outside and saw Indra pinning her down on her neck, another dog pinned her on the frontleg. The whole pack was ready to go in and finish her off and iran straight into the fight. 
I yelled so loud all the dogs spread apart, except for Indra. 
From a previous fight I knew she would re-grip within seconds and that is where I pulled her off. 

I was so mad. I always write on facebook how I am not playing with the dogs and she is following it closely or at least I assumed she is. I probably should have said not to play with the pack because Indra holds a grudge and that day she held it for two hours before she went after her. 

It was bad and if I had not been there, she would have killed her over a stupid ball. 

That is why no one can play with the two girls. There cannot be a competition between the two. That is only since Indra matured. She was absolutely okay with competition and all about chasing the ball with other dogs. 

As long as you follow those rules all is fine and the peace is kept...



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> There was an excellent point about what dog-breed or breeds your vet is familiar with. Many breeds and mixes of various breeds pack up better than GSDs do.
> 
> I think that you can make multiple females work, even with GSDs, if you have the right personality for that. I think you have to be a strong, fearless, and fair leader with plenty of energy to exercise the dogs, and committment to training. And everyone thinks they know dogs are dogs and not people, even people with foo foo dogs that they put tu tus on and let eat off of their fork _think _that they understand the dog is a dog and they are treating it like a dog, and more important, interpreting the dog's behaviors and body language with respect to their being a dog. But if you want two female GSDs, then you _really_ have to be clear on this point. GSD bitches are fast, strong, merciless when fighting, don't know quit, they can show amazing patience, and they are very intelligent. In short, they can wait until the timing is right to go to town on the other female. People have literally come home to blood baths where one bitch was dead and the other bitch needed to be euthanized.
> 
> ...


This is the biggest issue when they fight they move so fast and get a hold of your finger in a matter of seconds if you are by yourself. If they bite down on your finger hard enough you will lose it. When there is 2 people it is much easier when you are pulliing them both from the back legs but it is a horrific site to see 2 gsds face locked like 2 snakes rufusing to let go.

Spaying doesnt stop a females aggression like it will tone down a males dominance. Only spaying will stop the excessive aggression during their heat cycle. But they will still be the same bitch. They might be more nasty to in tact males and less flirty.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Dominance and submission also works with male-female setups. I had a dominant male that pushed my female around for months. One day she had enough and beat the crap out of him and pinned him. He left her alone after that. You just can never tell.
As stated elsewhere, my (humble) opinion is that getting another dog will not address the issue of being shy with people. Socialization, and lots of it, is the only solution. 
Worked for me / my dog.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yeah except in strange cases I have seen females in heat try to kill some nutered males that got on their nerves. But I agree usually the male even if he is dominant will just leave her alone when shes acting bitchy and if they do fight or scrap they forget. Males just let the females get away with anything a lot of times. In tact males and in tact females seem to have a strange relationship though the mature ones at least.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rush was a young 12 month old punk when he decided he was more dominant than Dubya, a two year old male, and Arwen, my then 5.5 year old Bitch. The fight with Dubya outside ended with everyone unscathed as I was right out there. However, I was in the kennel with Dubya and Rush outside -- how I separated them, when I heard WWIII going on inside the house. Arwen had jumped her yearling daughter. the pups were 6 months, and they jumped in, and Rush crashed through the doggie door to fight too. I rushed in and grabbed Babs and each of the three puppy bitches and through them in crates, and then Rush and through him in a crate so I had just Jenna and Arwen involved and I was able to separate them. 

A few days later I was short on pens in the room, so I thought Arwen and Rushie would be ok together eating. Erh! That's when Arwen thought she would show him his place and he opened her shoulder. Uhg! 

A few months later I was going to get them groomed, Arwen and Rushie, and I was 30 minutes early, and I decided to let them take a run down in the fields beyond the fairgrounds. And they were running around, until Rushie decided to bowl Arwen over, and she gave him a warning nip on his back and he turned and started punishing her. I put my hand into that and got what I deserved. 

I went off got my Explorer, and got in, and turned it on, and aimed it at the fighting dogs and drove it right up to them. That suprised them long enough for Arwen to go under and I snagged Rushie and had him in a crate faster than you could say peanut butter and jelly. Then I put Arwen in, and drove to my dad's. 

I had him come out, and we took each dog out of the car and looked them over good. Then I drove them home and put them away and then I went to the ER to get stitches in my hand. 

Not fun, not fun at all. You can have problems with male-female, but still I think female-female trumps all.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Am I the only one who has seen a gsd bitch try to kill a fixed male by latching on to his throat?

Did anyone else notice that a bitch will start to nail another bitch in the bum when shes trying to teach it manners? Reminds me of tom cats showing dominance to each other. Ive only seen gsds do this.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

rushie beating on such an older bitch and dog sounds scary for such a young pup, was he a lot bigger? Getting nailed in the hands is the most scary because i met someone who had to have their finger taken off trying to break up a gsd fighting with a dobie.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

pets4life said:


> rushie beating on such an older bitch and dog sounds scary for such a young pup, was he a lot bigger? Getting nailed in the hands is the most scary because i met someone who had to have their finger taken off trying to break up a gsd fighting with a dobie.


That was the last time I have been bitten. Rushie is seven now, and that happened when he was 1, so it was six years ago. It was a bad bite, I do not know which dog nailed me, but I put my hand right into the middle of them trying to grab a collar -- my fault. Just an inch long scar left on my hand to remember it by. 

This was all inter-pack aggression. I never had any problem with Rushie in dog classes, or at shows. He passed the CGC 7 or 8 times, and the TDI. So it was not like he was the Tasmanian Devil on walks or anything. In fact, he is very well trained and easy to manage. But much better off as an only dog, so that he does not have prove that he is the top dog. 

He is doing very well with my contractor now. I sold him when he was four, and his owner was sick for the past two years. The dog lay by his bedside the entire time. For the three years he had him, he never went out of the yard. And after he died, the dog sat by the window for 5 days. Then he started running around the house like a puppy and went out of the yard a few times. They asked me to come and get him. I did. I asked my contractor who remembers him, if he would like to take him. And he said he would. So I got him his 3-year vaccinations and gave him to my contractor. 

I told him the dog is not good with little dogs and does not like it when kids rough-house around him. He has no little dogs or kids, so that was good. The people had a 91 year old mother that kept bending over him and hugging him, my contractor has an elderly father. Both have a cat, and Rushie is doing very well, as a house dog with his new owner -- won't let him out of his sight. I am so glad for him. It is much better than being with me and my lot.


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