# Do You Think Professional Trainers Should Offer Their Services To Rescues For Free?



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I wanted some opinions on whether or not you think trainers should offer their services for free to rescues or shelters? I think it really depends on the issue that they are working on with the dog.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

No, nothing in life is free. This is their living, why should they give it away?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

No, training is a business. They need to make there money. That being said my trainer and I do help when we can. Usually that means we split the cost or give a discount. If it's a dog/person that I sent to the trainer then I pay the difference. Why should it come out of her mouth? She has kids and dogs to feed as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. I think if they are financially able to then what a wonderful thing to do. But these trainers still have bills to pay. 

Not long ago I had an argument about a local vet doing something for free on a Saturday night. A person found a kitten that had been shot. They trashed this vet all over Facebook...my vet...saying they refused to treat blah blah blah. I asked and got the other side of the story because I was horrified that they would refuse to treat a wounded animal. Real story was they were told to bring the kitten in and they could treat but there would be a bill.

Here is my view....first, the vet really has no way of knowing whose kitten it really is. Second, the vet has to call in a technician and pay them, electricity, surgery, etc. These people, rather than pay a vet bill allowed the kitten to suffer all weekend until the animal shelter opened on Monday.

Which leads me to the trainer. They have bills, overhead, gas money to the shelter. They may have liability responsibility if a dog gets adopted out and something happens. Wouldn't be the first time someone got sued for adopting out an animal that then bit someone. It's why rescues have liability insurance. 

If a professional has the time and money to volunteer their services that's great but I don't think they "should" just by nature of their occupation.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If the rescue is a non-profit and the trainer would receive tax benefits for donating their time, I think it should be the trainer's choice. 

I do think it's be a slippery slope however, if the rescue required as a apart of their adoption application that the adopter continue classes with said trainer for a specific period of time.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

No one should be expected to give their services for free, but it would be nice of they chose to do it. I'm sure there are some that do donate time when they can.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Their product is training.
Should a store provide rescues with free food?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

No. We do offer VERY discounted services to rescues, special classes just for fosters and donate some time but it's a business just like any other and rescue work takes up a lot of time. Also, IME, if you give one thing for free, it isn't long before people are expecting more and more for less and less (rescue or not).

We have one rescue in particular that we do a lot of work for but don't foster for and we do it because our heart is in helping the animals and we have both (my partner and I) been in rescue a long time. We have another that we strictly volunteer with and do no training for other than our fosters to keep from blurring the lines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I voted No. I think the workman is worthy of his hire. 

But, if a trainer felt that he could drum up business by working for the shelter so many hours per week, and in return the shelter gives him recommendations when people adopt a puppy or call about having a problem with a puppy, it may work to his advantage to donate some time. 

I do have a problem when anyone uses the words should and offer, or should and donate or should and volunteer. Any gift, be it time or money or services or prayer _should_ never be compulsory.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Definitely not. 

However, if they wanted to do that on their own time as a way to get more experience and help out rescues that would be very generous of them.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Totally depends on the trainer and the rescue. We used to help out with a few local rescues but got frustrated with them. We kept getting snide comments about our own dogs not being neutered and had one lady tell us to not tell anyone we had ever bred one of the females we brought with us as a demo dog. (a SchH3 KkL1 female with exemplary temperament, she was bred in Belgium before we got her). They spend full time totally bashing breeders (we are not breeders, but we obviously buy from them). So in that instance I saw no reason to be magnanimous and discontinued the relationships at that point. I used to get regular calls from rescues also asking us to offer free or discounted daycare/boarding to fosters as well. I basically laughed in their face at that point. 
We do free training still, but not for any rescues around here. We like to give back to our community, but not at the expense of being treated like that!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Free training for the community? Can you please move to Ashtabula County, Ohio?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

bocron said:


> Totally depends on the trainer and the rescue. We used to help out with a few local rescues but got frustrated with them. We kept getting snide comments about our own dogs not being neutered and had one lady tell us to not tell anyone we had ever bred one of the females we brought with us as a demo dog. (a SchH3 KkL1 female with exemplary temperament, she was bred in Belgium before we got her). They spend full time totally bashing breeders (we are not breeders, but we obviously buy from them). So in that instance I saw no reason to be magnanimous and discontinued the relationships at that point. I used to get regular calls from rescues also asking us to offer free or discounted daycare/boarding to fosters as well. I basically laughed in their face at that point.
> We do free training still, but not for any rescues around here. We like to give back to our community, but not at the expense of being treated like that!


My trainer has had the same experience . She spent hours on a couple dogs. They had nice "pet" obedience and she even got them CGC's. The dogs just sat around for another five years and never got adopted. It was a complete waste of her time.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

selzer said:


> Free training for the community? Can you please move to Ashtabula County, Ohio?


How about moving to Placer County, CA?

Maybe our experience was in the minority (I don't think so) - but I DO think a Rescue should offer training at a reduced rate esPECially if they know - & admit - that the dog they're placing is a difficult.

The Rescue we went thru was the biggest pile of elephant dung I could imagine. Too bad we didn't know that at the time. They only told the truth about our dog once - & that is, that she's a GSD. Everything else was lie: She did NOT "walk well" on a leash. She was NOT housebroken. She did NOT get along with cats (This was a big one for us, because we have 4 housecats. In fact, they turned us down for a Belgian because he 'wasn't good with cats'. Yeah, right. This Belgian is now working SAR & lives w/ 2 cats...)

Problem is - after having her less than a week, they never came back to the house. Wouldn't return our calls. We came to the conclusion they'd PTS if they got her back - she was that crazy of a dog then. But she'd already stolen our hearts - skinny little scarred dog with abrasions old & new.

2 years later, we have a dog that's coming along nicely - in SPITE of our errors. From 70 to 88 lbs. BYB for sure. Thousands spent on trainers, a behaviorist (OMG - that was a joke...) & the vet (mostly ruling out any & all ailments known to affect GSD...) Not a whole lot of people would've done that - could very well have wound up at the shelter or worse...

So yes, I think the Rescue should offer something more than a handshake. (Altho the one with whom we dealt can KMA)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> ...
> 
> So yes, I think the Rescue should offer something more than a handshake. (Altho the one with whom we dealt can KMA)


The question was, " Do You Think Professional Trainers Should Offer Their Services To Rescues For Free?"

And the rescues I dealt with were all volunteer based. They already are offering more than a handshake. Fostering, gas for transport, all these things do cost money.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

No I don't believe it should be expected that they donate their time, but if they choose to do so either free or discounted then that's wonderful and I would hope they would be recognized


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> The question was, " Do You Think Professional Trainers Should Offer Their Services To Rescues For Free?"
> 
> And the rescues I dealt with were all volunteer based. They already are offering more than a handshake. Fostering, gas for transport, all these things do cost money.


Professional Trainer - just because they can hang out a shingle that says they're "professional" doesn't mean they are. I know - we found 2 of them. 

Not for free - but reduced rates?

Volunteer-based or not - are we the only ones who dealt with a lousy Rescue? Hardly. Volunteerism is a not a license to lie. And yes, all costs money. But they also get reduced rates at vet's. There is no way they lost any money when we adopted Ziva.

It's OK - I'm quite used to being in the minority when it comes to personal views on something!


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## SukiGirl (Aug 31, 2012)

I said it depends because....

A dog that might be particularly hard to place due to behavior issues should be able to have a fighting chance. If a trainer with experience and a heart would spend time with those particular dogs, they might have a better chance at a happy home life with someone who is willing to continue the work after he/she gets adopted. If you can show someone that a dog has potential, despite some issues, I think it gives the dog a better chance and a potential adopter some piece of mind that a dog has been evaluated and cleared for adoption.

If we're talking about a trainer offering their services to a shelter to run classes for free - I don't know if FREE is necessarily fair to the trainer. It takes a lot of work and patience to work with dogs and their owners. They should be compensated to the best of the shelter's abilities. We paid for basic obedience classes for Suki, but we met a private trainer later on who worked with us for FREE, despite us trying to offer her money for her time. She just really loved our dog, and us, and wanted us to succeed. I couldn't thank her enough for all of her guidance and support especially during the hard times with our girl. I wish more trainers were as humble as she is.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

SukiGirl said:


> I said it depends because....
> 
> *A dog that might be particularly hard to place due to behavior issues should be able to have a fighting chance.* If a trainer with experience and a heart would spend time with those particular dogs, they might have a better chance at a happy home life with someone who is willing to continue the work after he/she gets adopted. If you can show someone that a dog has potential, despite some issues, I think it gives the dog a better chance and a potential adopter some piece of mind that a dog has been evaluated and cleared for adoption.


This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I wouldn't want basic obedience training. But I'm talking about basic *behavioral* issues. Issues the Rescue is darn aware of, if they've had the dog more than 24 hours. Offer help to the adopter - don't give them nothing after cashing the check. This rescue organization is darn lucky my hubby fell in love with this dog. And I'm lucky he didn't divorce me when it came to spending lots of money on recc trainers & the like. Or, is it just easier & more economical for the rescue to just PTS? I don't know - we'll never know, for they wouldn't get back to us. Not all Rescue groups are Lollipop factories - some are quite devious.


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## SukiGirl (Aug 31, 2012)

I would hope that a shelter would be more willing to pay for a behaviorist to work with the dogs before adoption rather than put them down! Unfortunately, not all shelter are 'no kill' - and most are probably hoping that a dog will get adopted and be out of their hair before they have to make that call. What I was trying to say is that experienced trainers should want to be an advocate for the pups who will be more work and harder to train and help them find a loving home. If a shelter didn't have to pay for the service of a trainer for those PARTICULAR dogs, they might be less likely to put them down or place them in homes knowing they are bound to fail.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If trainers want to volunteer their time to help out rescue organizations that's really nice, but I wouldn't think any less of the ones who don't.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We do a couple of different things.

As a trainer, Gabor will discounted training for rescue dogs from a *valid *501c3 rescue org. 

As a SCH club, we have the fosters from the valid 501c3 rescue orgs that we work with come out for socializing and a little work in basic OB in group training for free with the people that are fostering them. We focus on 1 or 2 rescues; mostly just 1. And if adopted in the area, the new owners can come out to the basic group OB for a reduced rate.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Absolutley not. Great if they do, but it's appauling to me that anyone, including a rescue, thinks they "should" get something for free. If they've developed a good relationship with a local kennel or trainer and get some benefits out of that relationship, that is awesome. If not, too bad, so sad. One of the rescues I volunteer with gets very discounted boarding from a kennel/doggie day care in the city they operate out of when they don't have a foster home to place a dog in. I think that is AWESOME that they do that. But the director of the rescue has spent years nuturing the relationship. I think a rescue needs to appropriately pair up fosters with dogs. Some fosters are great at providing a stable, loving home and not much else. And some are great at working through tough problem dogs. It's not always easy to pair each dog and foster up, I think....there are only so many fosters and so many that have space...and many issues you don't know about unitl the initial 2-3 week "settling in" period is over.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our obedience club offers a 50% discount if the dog is a rescue, adopted from a shelter or a service dog.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If trainers want to volunteer their time to help out rescue organizations that's really nice, but I wouldn't think any less of the ones who don't.


This is also the way I feel!!!


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## Glacier (Feb 25, 2009)

If they have the extra time and resources to do it more power to 'em. But they are running a business and their time spent at a shelter and away from their base clientele is money out of their pocket. Of course they could use the volunteering as an advertising.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I wouldn't want basic obedience training. But I'm talking about basic *behavioral* issues. Issues the Rescue is darn aware of, if they've had the dog more than 24 hours. Offer help to the adopter - don't give them nothing after cashing the check. This rescue organization is darn lucky my hubby fell in love with this dog. And I'm lucky he didn't divorce me when it came to spending lots of money on recc trainers & the like. Or, is it just easier & more economical for the rescue to just PTS? I don't know - we'll never know, for they wouldn't get back to us. Not all Rescue groups are Lollipop factories - some are quite devious.


You misunderstood the question entirely. This is not about the rescue giving adopters anything, it's about personal buisness trainers giving rescues training for free.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Funnily enough, I just started a thread on pro dog trainers list I'm a member of. In the thread I was lamenting how we have volunteered with a couple of local churches over that past 15 years. We have helped out with the training and organization of their "Pet Ministries", where they take dogs to shut-ins and senior centers, that type of thing. I told my husband the other day that this was our last time and I am sending them a letter resigning as their trainers. In the past 15 years we haven't been offered so much as a drink when we get there. They have tshirts that the group wears and I kept thinking they'd give us one as a thanks, or even offer to cover our gas. The 2 churches we worked with are not really in our vicinity so we have never gotten even one client out of it, and I've never heard the people in charge say something along the lines of contacting us for training help, etc. 
I'm sure I sound uncharitable, but sheesh you would think they would give us a Starbucks card at Christmas or something. When we have judges here to do a trial, or have someone come in for a seminar, our nonprofit club manages to give a gift card. It's not a fortune, but at least they know we appreciate the time they are spending away from their home. At our most recent trial I gave all the track layers and the helpers a small gift card. Not hard to do and it didn't break the bank and they are all so shocked that we did that.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

You don't sound uncharitable at all. Since you guys have been doing this for so many years, I feel that you should *at least* get a verbal thank you or some sort of sign that they really appreciate what you are doing. The problem that I see with a lot of the local shelters or rescues around here is that they have a sense of entitlement that trainers *should* help their dogs for free. I am working with another rescue now that is run by an older woman. We don't foster for her,but have sent one of our trainers over to the kennel that her dogs are being boarded at. This woman always pulls dogs who have really extreme behavioral issues,and then she doesn't have anyone to help her rehab the dogs. She has two dogs who are so afraid to go outside,they will literally do back flips to stay inside,biting,peeing,pooping,the whole gamut. These dogs have been like this for years. Anyway my point is that she expects a trainer to work with these dogs for free,when she knows that it won't be an easy fix. This would take months to get these dogs adoptable.I probably need to make another thread about that,but I get what you are saying.




bocron said:


> I'm sure I sound uncharitable, but sheesh you would think they would give us a Starbucks card at Christmas or something.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oliversmom brought up a good point, though. It costs about $85 around here for 6 hour-long sessions (weekly) for basic manners classes. So many times the reason a dog-owner situation fails is lack of simple training/bond. I am not talking about having a trainer on staff, but I think that when a shelter sells a dog, they should up the price by $85 (or the going rate in the area) and give the people a voucher for the classes. The classes are paid for, the people pay for them, meaning that if the dog would have costed $125 to "adopt" now it costs $210 but you not only get a fully vetted, altered, dog, you get six obedience classes at a local trainer. It would be listed on the break down for the dog. People will know what they cost, and if they choose to just eat the cost and not sign up, then that is up to them. But people will be more likely to go if they pay for it. 

Take it a step farther and sell life-time dog licenses instead of yearly license. The cost of a lifetime license would be much higher. $10/year for average 9 years, + voucher for spay/neuter $100, + voucher for a set of dog classes $100. So your lifetime license would cost $290 and you could get $100 off if you have evidence that the dog is already spayed or neutered. This would encourage spay/neuter but not demand it, those who want to keep a dog intact would pay an extra fee once -- for the lifetime of the dog, not forever. And if even half the people take the dog to classes, well, it would probably knock down the incidents of people dumping their dogs by maybe 25 - 30%.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

"Should"????? I try not to tell other people what they "should" do. 

It would be generous of a trainer to offer free services to a rescue. I think many work with rescues as a public service. "Should" no. It's great if they offer this but I don't think there is an obligation although maybe it is in their professional code of ethics that they do.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> You misunderstood the question entirely. This is not about the rescue giving adopters anything, it's about personal buisness trainers giving rescues training for free.


Well, leave it to me to "misundertand". 

#1 - Explain to me what a "pro trainer" is.
#2 - Should these so-called "pro-trainers" offer their wondrous knowledge for free or @ a reduced rate to RESCUES? 

I say "No" to a specific rescue organization. But - to the adopter of a screwed-up dog with behavioral issues? Yes - @ a discount rate - offer to help the ADOPTER of this type of dog. You can't put a lot $$ into a dog - while still in the 'Rescue's' possession. I get that. But, once the dog has been adopted, then Yes - help the adopter with a Problem Child. For every Problem Dog out there that is placed (with the 'Rescue' organization knowing FULL WELL this is a hard-to-place dog), I would bet the majority of these crazy dogs are PTS. Because the adopter got a bigger handful than they were prepared for. Rescue doesn't care - they got their $$, the dog is off their hands, & they never follow-up anyway.

But to the adopter - US - it DOES matter. Maybe all of you got a wonderful rescue dog. We didn't. Maybe all of you worked with a wonderful rescue group. We didn't - these idiots refused to call us back. Ziva could very well have wound up in a bone pile - they could give a crap. WE took the initiative - & lots of $$, lots of time - with a beat-up dog (emotionally & physically) & we've all benefitted. We would have certainly benefitted from some "professional" help during those first few months. Perhaps, instead of spending over 3K on rescue-endorsed worthless puke trainers, we could've benefitted from someone helping us learn how to work around Ziva's anxieties. And ours, as we were at a loss as to make this work.

For our $900 adoption fee, they sure as **** could've done SOMETHING to ensure their "placement" worked. Instead, they walked away. Could care less if the dog lived or died.

2 years later, Ziva is safe. Comfortable. 1000% better at obedience. A furry Velcro. And, when I'm feeling cruddy after a chemo treament - who is there? An 88-lb goofball & an old kitty. Fuzzy Valium.

Rescues do not sitteth @ the right side of God. Some are good. Some are bad. They have not-for-profit tax status. But, let's face it - at the top, does anyone make $$? You bet your buns they do. By no means do I begrudge them that. By no means do I put hubby & I on some pedastool. But WE saved this dog - no one else.

It sure would've been nice to have some help.


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

Should they have to, no..It is a free country and as long as you are not interfering with the right of others they should not have to.. Should they volunteer their time. I would hope so.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> Well, leave it to me to "misundertand".
> 
> #1 - Explain to me what a "pro trainer" is.
> #2 - Should these so-called "pro-trainers" offer their wondrous knowledge for free or @ a reduced rate to RESCUES?
> ...


Any trainer that is making a living training, is a professional trainer, imo.

Once again, no one is talking about whether or not they should offer reduced services to adopters. MOST DO! At least in my area. I get reduced training for my pit because I adopted him. 

HOWEVER, the question was whether or not trainers should have to give free training to the rescue. No, they should never be forced to, or expected to. It had nothing to do with what RESCUES should give the adopters, which I would agree is a lot more than most do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I really need to know the rescue. I do offer my training for free to one rescue that I know is sincere. In return they refer the adoptive owners to me so it works both ways. I will not offer my services for free just because some rescue assumes this.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> #2 - Should these so-called "pro-trainers" offer their wondrous knowledge for free or @ a reduced rate to RESCUES?


I might be misunderstanding you and if I am I apologize, but it sounds like you believe people who rescue or adopt dogs from shelters are entitled to special treatment from trainers. A problem dog, regardless of where it came from can cost it's owners substantial amounts of money and heartache. I think that's the chance you take when you get a dog. 



Olivers mama said:


> But to the adopter - US - it DOES matter. Maybe all of you got a wonderful rescue dog. We didn't. Maybe all of you worked with a wonderful rescue group. We didn't
> For our $900 adoption fee, they sure as **** could've done SOMETHING to ensure their "placement" worked. Instead, they walked away. Could care less if the dog lived or died.


You're complaints are valid but the people to blame are the ones that run that particular rescue, not dog trainers in general. 



Olivers mama said:


> Rescues do not sitteth @ the right side of God. Some are good. Some are bad. They have not-for-profit tax status. But, let's face it - at the top, does anyone make $$? You bet your buns they do. By no means do I begrudge them that. By no means do I put hubby & I on some pedastool. But WE saved this dog - no one else.
> It sure would've been nice to have some help.


Yes, it would be nice to think that all rescues are there to help new owners through the tough times but honestly, it's no different than buying a dog from a breeder. Some are there to offer advice, some take dogs back, some disappear into the night never to be heard from again. None of this has anything to do with dog trainers and whether or not they have an obligation to help people who rescue dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> Any trainer that is making a living training, is a professional trainer, imo.
> 
> Once again, no one is talking about *whether or not they should offer reduced services to adopters. MOST DO! *At least in my area. I get reduced training for my pit because I adopted him.
> 
> HOWEVER, the question was whether or not trainers should have to give free training to the rescue. No, they should never be forced to, or expected to. It had nothing to do with what RESCUES should give the adopters, which I would agree is a lot more than most do.


But why? Why should someone offer reduced services to adopters?

People adopt for a number of reason, by adopt I mean purchase a dog from a rescue or pound. Some of them adopt because they want to offer a dog a second chance -- so out of the goodness of their hearts. Money is not the issue, so why would they need free or discounted services?

Some adopt because they cannot afford to purchase a dog from a breeder. They want a cheap dog. Goodness of the heart is not a factor. They have their pet, and now they need to pay for its expenses. If someone cannot pay for a dog's expenses, food, vet bills, training, housing, maybe they should get a cat or a guppie instead.

I can understand a trainer offering reduced rates to fosters. For one thing, this is a person who comes back and comes back. Having them in the class is not necessarily onerous, and can be helpful at times. They are actually doing something for the dogs beyond owning it as a pet. They are working toward getting that pet ready for its future home. 

There are rescues and rescues and rescues. Some people call the dog they bought from a pet store a rescue, because they rescued it from an awful situation. Some people consider the dog they bought from a local BYB a rescue because it wasn't a reputable breeder. 

I guess I just don't understand why anyone not connected to a specific rescue where the dog was purchased would give the final purchaser of the dog a break because of how they obtained their dog. Now if the going rate was $120 in the area, and someone charges $150 but will give you $30 off if you "adopted" your dog, basically to get you in the door, and keep you as a customer, well it's all a racket isn't it?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

My apologies to all. You're right. I'm wrong.

"Professional trainers" should not offer Rescues any help at a reduced rate. And, certainly no help for those who adopt problem dogs. Leave it to the uninformed, uneducated adopters to muddle their way through it. Some will, some won't - it's obviously the nature of the beast. There's no sense of "entitlement" here - this was a hypothetical question & I responded in the same manner.

Through no help of this particular rescue, and no help from their liason partnerships (other than lots of $$), we made it. Had I consulted this forum, we would probably never have adopted this dog. A physical & psychological mess, she would've been PTS.

2 years later, I, personally, am GLAD we went through what we did. But, would I wish this experience on anyone? Nope. And someone tryng to help a battered rescue is a WHOLE lot different than buying a 6-8 week old pup from a breeder. Been there, done that. Raising a pup is a whole lot easier.

If you personally have never adopted an adult battered dog, you're in no position to lecture me on what help I believe we could've used. Instead of ripping me a new one because I don't agree with the status quo, you should be saying 'Thanks' for saving a dog - a GSD - from the dead body heap.

I posed ths question to my hubby, to elicit a response from someone who went thru this experience from Start to Finish (he's nicer than I am). He feels it would have been 'nice', had someone offered help unlike what we experienced. That's all I'm saying - a little help would've been nice.

I mean - seriously - look a look at that beYOOOtiful puppy face in my avatar - Ziva holding her sock monkey. I'm HAPPY we perservered. I bet she would agree. With no help from the rescue or any of their alliances. You can kick us. Me? I'm happy with what we did. I bet Ziva would agree.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> My apologies to all. You're right. I'm wrong.
> 
> "Professional trainers" should not offer Rescues any help at a reduced rate. And, certainly no help for those who adopt problem dogs. Leave it to the uninformed, uneducated adopters to muddle their way through it. Some will, some won't - it's obviously the nature of the beast. There's no sense of "entitlement" here - this was a hypothetical question & I responded in the same manner.
> 
> ...


Dude, you're completely off topic! No one is insulting you or telling you that you had it easy or didn't deserve help.  That just isn't the topic at hand! 

I've worked at numerous shelters. I've rehabilited dogs that WERE going to be PTS at the shelter for fear aggression. I've helped rehabilitate dogs that were rehabilitatable AT the shelters and they've gotten homes. I don't know what you went through with your dog, but I can guarantee I've seen the same things at work. No one ever said that you shouldn't get help as an adopter or have been told of her issues, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> But why? Why should someone offer reduced services to adopters?


Racket's probably the best term. My trainer does this. I dunno why.. to support the idea of adopting dogs instead of from the BYB around here I suppose? She charges more for first time students than she does repeat students, too.. I suppose that would probably fit into your idea, too.. I don't know why any of them do, I just know they do.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I would hope we can agree to disagree selzer. BTW - we weren't looking for a 'cheap dog'. We wanted a GSD & had no idea where to start, in terms of a 'reputable' breeder. Instead, we opted for a hard-to-place dog vs an easy pup. And I'd BET we spent more on this dog than we would've on a new pup from a breeder, even in this area. We weren't trying to get by cheaper. I kind of resent that inference.

Time for me to go - my opinion is definitely in the minority. That part doesn't bother me. Most of you are breeders, 'trainers', etc - I would EXPECT our opinions to differ. I am just a Joe-Blow citizen who wanted a GSD. And altho I still maintain some help would've been nice, the fact is, we have our crazy furry velcro GSD. And that's what we wanted.

"Dude" - I've never been called that before...& I thought I'd been called EVERYthing! hahahaha


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> Time for me to go - my opinion is definitely in the minority. That part doesn't bother me. Most of you are breeders, 'trainers', etc - I would EXPECT our opinions to differ. I am just a Joe-Blow citizen who wanted a GSD. And altho I still maintain some help would've been nice, the fact is, we have our crazy furry velcro GSD. And that's what we wanted.
> 
> "Dude" - I've never been called that before...& I thought I'd been called EVERYthing! hahahaha


No one is disagreeing with you! Just start your own thread if you want to talk about help you could've gotten. This isn't a thread about any of it and you're bringing your personal rescue issues into it. It has nothing to do with rescues at all.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> No one is disagreeing with you! Just start your own thread if you want to talk about help you could've gotten. This isn't a thread about any of it and you're bringing your personal rescue issues into it. *It has nothing to do with rescues at all*.


...other than what trainers should give to RESCUES?

This is, I'm sorry, the last place I would come looking for help in our situation. I am merely using my own personal experience to answer the poll question. I have my own experiences, everyone else has theirs. That's how we come to our own conclusions. Actually, I'm glad we're obviously in the minority. Because if more people experienced what we did, they'd never rescue again.:crazy:

BTW - original question about trainers offering their expertise to rescues at zero or reduced cost....our local animal control high-kill shelter offers reduced-priced basic obedience classes for their adoptees. Help that costs next to nothing for K9 behavioral issues for dogs they adopt out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Olivers mama said:


> I would hope we can agree to disagree selzer. BTW - we weren't looking for a 'cheap dog'. We wanted a GSD & had no idea where to start, in terms of a 'reputable' breeder. Instead, we opted for a hard-to-place dog vs an easy pup. And I'd BET we spent more on this dog than we would've on a new pup from a breeder, even in this area. We weren't trying to get by cheaper. I kind of resent that inference.
> 
> Time for me to go - my opinion is definitely in the minority. That part doesn't bother me. Most of you are breeders, 'trainers', etc - I would EXPECT our opinions to differ. I am just a Joe-Blow citizen who wanted a GSD. And altho I still maintain some help would've been nice, the fact is, we have our crazy furry velcro GSD. And that's what we wanted.
> 
> "Dude" - I've never been called that before...& I thought I'd been called EVERYthing! hahahaha


You paid $900 for a dog from a rescue and the rescue SHOULD have helped you with your dog for that kind of bread. Yes, things are more expensive in CA, but that is a LOT of money. 

I understand why a rescue will charge $200 or $250 for dogs when they pull them from the pound at $25 - $80, maybe help to transport them, pay of spay/neuter and shots, and at the end of the day, they may be $75 ahead of the game. But, the next dog might need some nasty surgery, and even with a rescue-discount, the rehab and cost for this dog might be $2k. So I understand why a rescue might charge more than a pound does when they home their dogs, and still not make a profit. If you charged only what expenditures each dog incurred, then you would have some dogs go quick and others spending their lives in a rescue situation. But $900 is excessive, and a rescue charging those fees should have paid staff/behaviorists, trainers, etc.

I think vets kind of have to do some reduced rate services to stay up in the community. But they can write it off as charitable giving and they have a bigger pool to pull from. 

Trainers, who do this for a living, or to augment their living, have a LOT of overhead, they have to pay rent on the place they are doing the training, they have to make it worth while, and they should get paid for the time they spend, their materials, their knowledge, their providing helpers, etc. They need the money they are making. By charging everyone, they can keep the general rates low and still make it worthwhile. This way they help a LOT of people help their dogs. 

No, I don't think any trainer should go and give you a freebie because you rescued a dog. I think it is great that you did. I think that at the end of the day, both you and the dog will have gained an awful lot, and if someone DID give you some free classes/help, I would think they were awesome for doing that. But I don't think anyone should feel compelled to do so. 

You had $900 to give to the bogus rescue. Sorry, but obtaining the dog is only the beginning of the costs of owning a dog. You took on a dog that would be harder to place. That is awesome that you chose to do that. But that does not mean that someone should help you get to where you want to be with that dog for free, or even at a reduced rate. 

I might wake up tomorrow and decide to start a Canadian Goose rescue. Should my vet offer to treat all the Canadian Geese I bring in for free? Should I ask a trainer to come out for free and train my dogs to leave my Canadian Geese alone? When we want to do something because we see a need for something, sometimes people want to help and will give money and time to help us. And sometimes people think what we are doing is nice, but don't feel like they should give up their time or money for our project. 

The rescue should have done more for you for $900. Yes. I agree. An unconnected trainer, no. Sorry.

I never suggested that YOU were looking for a "cheap dog." But a LOT of people go to pounds, etc, for just that reason.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

No.. they have bills to pay, too.

However, if they had free time once or twice a month to help train the staff to learn basic obedience training - that would be a donation in my eyes. A very kind, generous donation!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought of a better analogy. We have horses in my county. Lots of them. Lots of horses, lots of land, no money. It is just the way it is. Some of the people who have horses, have no business having them, and they need to be rescued on occasion. 

Now if I got it in my mind to rescue a couple of horses. Should my contractor build me a shed for them with a couple of stalls, should the tractor supply company donate stall mats, should the feed store donate straw and hay and grain and supplements? If I should manage all that on my own, and realize the horse have some issues. Should a professional trainer come and train my horses for me for free because I rescued them? 

I don't think so. 

Should a professional horse trainer go to the humane society or a horse rescue and donate their services? If they did, they would be very generous. But nobody should make out that just because they have the skills to work with the horses, they should go and do it. People are stretched pretty thin as it is trying to make enough money to keep their heads out of the water. People are very generous when they do see a need they can fill for the most part. But there should be no _should _about it.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

My trainer who after a few years opened a rescue includes some free training private classes with your rescue dog, and then you move up to the group classes which for the lifetime of your dog are free. Xtra private classes are more which I took. The adoption fee is 225 which with training is a great deal.She wants to make sure that the owner will have help with any issues that come up I don't know anyone else whos whole life is about helping dogs like this trainer is If you just go for training there she will give some off for rescues from other places.


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

I agree that they shouldnt be expected to do it but I do think it would be an admirable donation of their time


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

'_Should_' is a very strongly word. If trainers are expected to offer their services to rescue organizations for free then you would have to expect that everyone in the world _SHOULD_ offer their professional skills and services for free to the needy. And I'm pretty sure that expectation is non-existent.

*Olivers mama*, I'm sorry what you went through with that rescue and the hard times you had with your rescue dog, but I don't understand how saving money and having a free trainer instead of paying for one would have completely changed the situation.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Everyone has to make a living. Nothing in life is free. You also have to "give back" so if there is a life or death situation and maybe an evaluation or such would save a dogs life that would be wonderful. So I voted depends on the situation.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I voted that it "depends". I personally donate time to our local shelter to groom dogs in desperate need of it, but I don't think people should *expect* trainers, groomers, vets, etc. to donate their time. It's a totally personal decision on the professional's part. 

I do believe that it's appropriate for folks to support causes they believe in, so I do it--but I'm not about to tell others what they *should* do.

I do see problems arise, however, because inexperienced trainers just starting out tend to be the ones that donate their time. It's a great way for the trainer to get experience and exposure, and the dogs can certainly benefit if they are good. But if they are not-so-good, it can cause more problems than it solves. Case in point, in our area we have a trainer fresh out of some dog behavior school who thinks he knows everything. He posts on Craigslist and brags that he's been working for *three* years as a "professional" trainer. What I heard from the local shelter is that he volunteered for them and really messed things up, so they had to fire him. It's got to be pretty bad when an org turns down free help. I've had a few dealings with this "trainer" and found him to be extremely unprofessional... I won't give specific examples because this guy has been known to troll the internet looking for bad things people have said about him, then rousing his gang-banger minions to harass them. Anyway, I'd rather see an organization pay a GOOD trainer than accept a bad one for free.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Wouldn't the world be a mess if doctors, dentists, lawyers, barbers, baby sitters and the list goes on, refused to do any donated work. 

DFrost


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I just donated an hour of my time today to a family who took their dog to a local kill shelter yesterday to surrender him. The shelter gave them my phone number. They have a sweet 100lbs 10mo puppy who is dragging them around and they cannot handle him - on a flat collar. They said he lunges after other dogs, he was fine with mine. The breeder told them to euthanize him. It is an easy fix. They took a paid obedience class with him an the paid trainer did not teach them how to manage an oversized puppy. I probably saved his life. I hope I am not the only one who would do something like this.

I think the question is not properly posed. It is about donating time to the dogs to make them more adoptable and easier to manage for the future family. The adoption fees in my area are in the range $200-300. The least expensive vets charge rescues for spay/neuter $170-200. Exam, vaccines, snap test, around $120. Rescues simply cannot afford to pay for training, let alone for a behaviorist. The funny thing is that fancy expensive behaviorists advise owners to dump the dog on rescue - for the $400 they charge for the "service".

There are two trainers in the area who help rescue dogs. They get hundreds of referrals in return and much of their business is through rescue referrals. It is a good arrangement for both sides.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

RebelGSD said:


> I just donated an hour of my time today to a family who took their dog to a local kill shelter yesterday to surrender him. The breeder told them to euthanize him. *It is an easy fix*. They took a paid obedience class with him an the paid trainer did not teach them how to manage an oversized puppy. I probably saved his life. I hope I am not the only one who would do something like this.
> 
> I think the question is not properly posed. It is about donating time to the dogs to make them more adoptable and easier to manage for the future family.
> There are two trainers in the area who help rescue dogs. They get hundreds of referrals in return and much of their business is through rescue referrals. It is a good arrangement for both sides.


 
Thank you, Rebel, for your time & devotion!!!

Agreed about the posing of the question. For this is EXACTLY what I was trying to get across.:crazy:

I don't like the word 'should'. 'Should' someone HAVE to donate their time? Which = $$$? No - not at all. What *I* think would be a great idea - is for these so-called professionals to accept discounted rates for working with Problem Dog-Children. I keep using us as an example, which angers some, but that is my only frame of reference. Our dog was - admitted by the Rescue - a hard-to-place orphan. Too high-strung, hyper, nippy & bore the physical scars of her previous life. I don't expect the Rescue to put their $$ into training for these animals. BUT - if the adopter is willing to cut loose with their $$ & (more importantly, IMO) their time - then yes, steer the adopters to someone who can help. At a reduced rate. For every "trainer" that works with a dog like ours at, say $50/hr, that $$ is more than made up in their usual $100/hr fee. I know, because we paid those $100/hr fees. Multiplied.

I'm simply saying that these so-called professionals - provided they really care about the end result of the adoptions, would be willing to help adopters that are interested. Otherwise, PTS the crazy dogs up front, don't "bother" & don't pretend you care what happens to them.

Trainers "should" not be expected to hand over their services to Rescues for free or @ reduced rates. Geez, the whole world expects that the USA "should" help everyone for nothing. That's not what I'm saying. Perhaps I'm addressing Part 2 of the poll question - If the trainers are willing to offer - @ reduced rates - help thru the Rescues to the ADOPTERS - *THAT* would be 100% beneficial to the new owners & ultimately, the dogs. Again, I can only base this upon personal experience. We finally had to give up on the any "pro" helping us. After 5K spent on the initial adoption, trainers, behaviorists, vet checks...we simply ran out of $$ to spend. (To be honest, had it not been for my medical expenses, we would've kept on spending until we found the right match). Had someone offered us some help for the nutso-abandoned-abused behavioral issues @ a cost we could've afforded, we would've jumped at the chance. We had proven history. We tried.

Thank goodness we didn't give up. Ziva is by no means the perfect dog. But she's now a trusting, robust, 88-lb clown & loving companion. It took 2 years.

Dog training is a business. So are Rescues. I get that. But don't promo yourself as wanting the best for a dog, & then disregard the very people who pay your fees. And no, I don't expect "special" treatment just because we adopted a rescue. But, when the high-kill shelters offer help, I expect no less from the rescues. Who put themselves atop the adoption pile.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Actually in our rescue adopters pay a flat fee,which is a fraction of what a healthy dog's vetting costs us. Our volunteers pay the difference out of their pocket. My last adoption, I paid $410 for heart worm treatment, $135 for transport, $150 for boarding, $150 for the vetting. Not counting, gas food, toys , collar&leash. The adopter paid $275 as adoption fee. So she got $400+ gift from me in return. She disregarded the simplest instruction regarding the management of the dog during the transition period. She refused to listen to any advice and treated me like crap in return. I offered to refund the adoption fee and give her extra 100 bucks for the one day she had the dog just so that I don't have to deal with her. Then she decided she wants the dog, just felt like abusing someone. How much should volunteers charge for getting abused by adopters who feel entitled to a saint served on a platter? 
Olivers moma, imo you should have returned or put down the dog rather than collect all this venom. And why on earth, as an inexperienced gsd owner, would you ask for a hard to place dog. 
I would really like to know which rescue charged a $900 adoption fee. I have never seen one that does so I would like to learn from them. I spent countless hours helping adopters manage their dogs for free so please don't bark at me.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Just to clarify, unlike trainers, people in rescue are not professionals, they are volunteers with jobs, their own dogs and families who donate their free time to help discarded animals. They don't get paid to housebreak other entitled people's dogs on their rugs, serve perfection on a platter, etc. And they are free to walk away any time - which does happen if they are treated badly enough.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't understand the 'venom' part. We did not ask for a hard-to-place dog. We asked for a particular one, & they brought another to our home. They admitted she was 'difficult'. Said we had 3 days to make up our minds...& then they returned our calls when we ran into major difficulties. Whatever, we kept her. In the end, I am not sorry. Yes, I would've liked some help. And, while we were 'unexperienced GSD owners', we were not inexperienced with dogs in general.

I guess, when the words bounce around in my head, it must sound better to me than they sound here. I'm not suggesting anything for free. Just help. But that's OK - we didn't get it & maybe we're better off for it.

I'm not biting anyone's head off - look back - it's me whose getting bitten. And yet, I keep coming back for more. (It's the Aires in me.) I am obviously in the minority with my thinking & that's OK.

Eventually - if I an beat this cancer - not only will we adopt another GSD, it will be a Rescue. Obviously, not from the same organization, but we adore the breed & we've learned a LOT. Experience is a fabulous teacher. And, selfishly, I LIKE the idea we can offer a good home to a PTS-Candidate.

And really - we can have differing opinions without either being necessarily 'wrong'. Most of you are seasoned GSD owners. I respect that. But there's a big difference in working with a rescue & Bringing Up Puppy. I think we've done OK.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether or not you think trainers should offer their services for free to rescues or shelters? I think it really depends on the issue that they are working on with the dog.


NO, but a discount! When I walked into the vets with a rescue I never got their services for free, but I did get a discount with a rescue dog


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

You know most of us here practice some form of NILIF with our dogs. Why should it be any different with ourselves? I don't think anyone should be forced or guilted into giving their time for free. If they want to great! Awesome for them. Some people are special and hopefully they will be rewarded for it. However we should not punish anyone for wanting to get paid for their hardwork.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In my area, most of the people with dogs get them from the pound or from a rescue. And most of them, really, do so because they have no need for a pure-bred dog, and they don't want to spend that kind of dough. At least 50% of the dogs around here, probably more, are some type of rescue. 

Trainers would have to charge me and the few people out there with pure-breds from breeders a ton of money to support their "giving" of themselves to all of the rescues in the county. I think when you get a dog, it should be yours to provide for, no matter where you got it from.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

selzer said:


> In my area, most of the people with dogs get them from the pound or from a rescue. And most of them, really, do so because they have no need for a pure-bred dog, and they don't want to spend that kind of dough. At least 50% of the dogs around here, probably more, are some type of rescue.
> 
> Trainers would have to charge me and the few people out there with pure-breds from breeders a ton of money to support their "giving" of themselves to all of the rescues in the county. I think when you get a dog, it should be yours to provide for, no matter where you got it from.


 
You might have to help me with this  but I think if someone gives all they have should get some kind of break? Nothing is for free but should not the ones who try hard get a break (discount)? . Am I thankful I did with rescues and got that, not talking about my own dogs because that would not be right .


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

shepherdmom said:


> You know most of us here practice some form of NILIF with our dogs. Why should it be any different with ourselves? I don't think anyone should be forced or guilted into giving their time for free. If they want to great! Awesome for them. Some people are special and hopefully they will be rewarded for it. However we should not punish anyone for wanting to get paid for their hardwork.


Who is getting punished? I missed that. 
I just personally prefer people who don't always focus on the big all mighty dollar. A personal choice and preference. 
I also prefer people who don't have infinite expectations on rescues for the rididculously low adoption fee they pay (I have never seen a $900 adoption fee, I admit).


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

<------------------ Seriously, look @ that face in the avatar...holding her sock monkey. Could you say 'No' to her? 

We never asked for anything for free. I'm just saying...:headbang:


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

What??? My my, we might want to know this? LOL!! And you what, do you want for free but to come here and someone might help enough because they care.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> Who is getting punished? I missed that.
> I just personally prefer people who don't always focus on the big all mighty dollar. A personal choice and preference.
> I also prefer people who don't have infinite expectations on rescues for the rididculously low adoption fee they pay (I have never seen a $900 adoption fee, I admit).


I am talking about the original question... Do you think professional trainers should offer their services to rescues for free. I do not think that those that don't should be bashed here or anywhere else. It is a choice and it may have nothing to do with the big all mighty dollar and more to do with feeding their families. I go to work everyday and get paid for it, why should trainers be any different? Same with vets. Those that offer discounts to rescues horray for them. Should they feel obligated no! They have to make enough to pay their employee's and their bills. If they have the time and the income to be able to do some pro-bono work well awesome for them. My vet has a fund set up and she sells t-shirts and takes donations. Then when a long term client has a pet emergency that they can't pay for their is a fund set up to help pay for that emergency. It is what works for her.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'm a bit confused after reading some of the replies; are we talking about donating services to a shelter or rescue organization, or donating services to people who have adopted pets from shelter/rescue?

If the latter, no, I don't believe people are entitled to free services or discounts just because they adopted a dog from shelter/rescue. If someone wants to offer free or discount services as part of an adoption package, that's great, as it makes pets more adoptable--but I don't think the owner is entitled to this for the life of the pet.

I do, however, give discounts for people who are fostering. I have a couple of clients who bring their fosters in for grooming and they get a reduced rate. I couldn't afford to provide free services for all these dogs, but my clients who foster have a LOT of fosters, so I can count on a block of at least four dogs with each visit. I don't make a lot of money on these dogs, but the quantity helps make up for it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

There are many professional trainers who come on this forum and give free advice!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have been helping people with training in a club atmosphere for free for quite a few years. I am now starting partnership with a local established training facility and I will be doing this as a job.
Having worked for a local non-profit people shelter, I am well aware of the need of the needy in my community.

My desire is to work with our local humane society and animal control to provide sliding scale discounts to those who can PROVE they are in need of financial assistance. Whether these are adopters, or someone thinking about turning a dog in for behavior issues, or just a local family needing training help and TRULY cannot afford it.

I have sat in too many parking lots, in my 25 year old car, waiting to meet people to hand out food or Christmas presents... and having them show up in an Escalade... to help those who can help themselves.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I was talking about shelter or rescue organizations. The reason I made this thread is because I know of a quite a few shelters or rescues in this area who get dogs with extreme behavioral issues (aggression or fear issues),and they don't want to put the dogs down (employee favorites,etc),and instead ask for help from a few trusted trainers in the area. If the trainer can come by,they will but often times they are busy with their own clients,and can't commit to giving the dogs the help they need right away,and they usually say they can't pay anything.



Freestep said:


> I'm a bit confused after reading some of the replies; are we talking about donating services to a shelter or rescue organization, or donating services to people who have adopted pets from shelter/rescue?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Add.... As a newly "professional" trainer, I would like to offer classes and even CGC/STAR puppy testing to dogs currently in rescue, at a nominal fee when brought in by a rescue volunteer. 

I have a long history of helping with rescues, that is what got me into training.

I would not expect any trainer to feel they must offer services for free/discounted.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When you start to go down the slippery slope of who _should_ do _________ for free, or give a break, you have to decide where to draw the line. My trainer, I bet she could find a reason to discount every single dog and owner she works with. 

One couple were senior citizens and have adopted a high energy pup they were lied to about at the pound.

Some of us are unemployed.

A great many have rescues.

Some have dogs that have serious issues. 

One lady just had a baby.

Several have had some nasty medical conditions.

And others are fighting with their dogs' serious health problems. 

Yes trainers love dogs, and they pretty much have to be able to like people too, because I would probably be in jail for clobbering the people if I was out there training them to train their dogs. 

These people deserve to make what money they do. They work hard, and are not making a killing off of training dogs. They have excellent credentials as well. And A LOT of dogs are currently great family pets/companions that would have probably been given up to a shelter or rescue if their owners had not put them through the training. 

Trainers are probably responsible for a lot of dogs that don't land in shelters. 

I think they are making a great contribution toward dogs in general without suggesting they _should_ do it for free or for a serious cut in their fee. 

If a trainer gets known for giving free lessons to rescues (or any other reason someone may want or need a break), they will be over-run with clients who don't want to pay. Trainers do give people breaks all the time, not because they should, but because they see a need that they can fill and are willing to do so out of the goodness of their hearts. Most aren't going to shout about it, and with good cause, but sometimes it does come out, and then people start feeling that they should give training for free or reduced rates.

Frankly, I think trainers do enough to get out there week after week teaching clueless dog owners how to manage their dogs, for a couple of crumby bucks. I mean figure it out, if you have a class for 6 weeks for $85, and you have 8 people in the class, that is roughly $100 for an hour's class. 

$100/hour sounds ok, but then you have to factor in the overhead. Is that for one person, or is it a couple? Oh it's a couple, knock it down to $50/hour. Are they opening their home for this or do they have to rent premises? What did they have to provide to do this over the long term? What do they have to prepare for each session? Do they have to travel to get there, and bring dogs and equipment, etc. Do they need insurance? Do they have to pay to be qualified as an evaluator, judge, certifications, keeping certifications current? What types of information do they have to pay to copy and provide to people? How much time do they spend researching specific issues? How many classes can they support with paying entrants to cover the overall costs of what all they are putting into it? If you have to pay $500/month to rent a facillity, but you only have 30 people signing up for classes, $33 of your $85 is going to go for the building. It just isn't looking very lucrative anymore is it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The people that I was training with, used to rent a room, in a self-serve dog wash/grooming salon/ doggy daycare. Before class these people would travel to the place, and clean the room, removing the cats and putting them back in the cat room, cleaning messes and hairballs left by the critters being in there during the day without the people taking care to clean it after them, bring in their own equipment, set up, and then run two classes, then talk to the people as they are leaving, then clean and vaccume the room again, and load up all their equipment into their van again. Not everyone sees the stuff behind the scenes. All they see is their couple of dollars their spending on their dog and wondering whether the dog is worth it.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

My fault this got off-topic. Sorry.

Should trainers give anything free to Rescues? No.

No one "should" have to give away anything. 

Not part of the original question, but where I re-directed it - Should Trainers "give" anything to adopters or should Rescues "offer" help with hard-to-place dogs? No.

I retract what I've said about people adopting rescues. What they get is what they get. Some dogs will survive, others won't.

For those of you that offer your time & expertise to rescues & subsequently, to the adopters - I *THANK* you!

Perhaps the next rescue-related question should be made open only to those actively involved in rescues - either by working with them, or by adopting a rescue. If you've never adopted a rescue, it is much more difficult than ordering a puppy from a breeder & working with a clean slate.

I was wrong to intervene here & I apologize.


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