# Help: Can/Should This Dog Be Placed? If Not, She Has No Other Options...



## applegate

A breeder offered me this dog almost 2.5 months ago to replace a puppy that wouldn’t bond with me (complicated story which I will detail in a future post since this breeder is well thought of on this forum and people need to know...). The breeder refused to give me another puppy or refund my money, so this dog was my only option. While this dog bonded with me immediately and is very loving, from the second day after she arrived, when visitors and landlords came to meet her, she has shown barking and sometimes growling behavior meeting others on the property, and she has and continues to demonstrate owner resource guarding behavior, even with people she has come to know and be very affectionate with. I have numerous videos with a link to some of them at the bottom of this post and there are lots of witnesses. She lightly "nipped" my partner’s hand several times, though it was more like a bump (on video) and she nipped my landlady’s daughter in the behind after she got out of her car when I wasn’t home. She’s almost nipped my sister (on video). The breeder has refused to take her back or compensate me in any way. I have so far lost almost $4,000 between her two dogs.

I am disabled with health issues, so I have been investigating my options and 5 trainers have reviewed the videos and they along with behaviorists at the shelters and rescues, have all said her fear-based behavior would take a lot of intensive work, time, and dedication to improve. They suggest a muzzle in public for safety. They recommended professional help since I have no experience with fear-based -- or any kind of -- aggression. She needs a strong leader with energy. I cannot do the training they suggest, however, as I have too little energy, have occasional autoimmune flare-ups, I have a mobility disability and I am single with a modest fixed income insufficient to cover such trainer costs, especially since I’ve lost so much money because of this breeder.

I have contacted numerous rescues and non-kill shelters, and NONE will take her. It seems her only option to survive is if someone who is experienced with shepherds would be willing to take her knowing her propensity to nip if she feels threatened and the work that would be involved. She would do well on a rural or controlled property without a lot of visitors (unless you want lots of visitors to help train her with) and she loves other male dogs (not sure about females). She loves her owner (me) and others she gets to know, like my landlords, partner and relatives (but she still resource guards them from me). She is, most of the time, very sweet. Is there anyone on this forum who would be willing to take her? Or, is this a dog that shouldn’t be placed at all?

I had wanted the dog to train to help me with a few mobility tasks related to my disability (service dog). The dog was said to be stable, confident, have had “thousands” of dollars of obedience training, and be temperamentally suitable to train for service dog tasks. She was living the past 1.75 years at a trainer friend of the breeder’s in another state. When she arrived, she surfed the kitchen counters, jumped on furniture, rushed in and out of a door, grabbed at food, and groveled when corrected, all witnessed behaviors by others. (I am being very careful to stick to provable facts since many of you are going to want to know who the breeder is, and even the trainer, and provable facts will prevent me from being sued for libel or defamation.) All these behaviors extinguished very quickly, so she is intelligent.

She does have lovely qualities and she's pretty, so I don’t want to undersell those, but I am obligated to disclose her nipping history, so that obstacle has to be put right out there in front. She is too much of a burden for me because of my health, but the thought of having to euthanize her or give her to a kill shelter if I can’t find her a home is an agonizing one and against everything I stand for. It would cause me significant emotional harm, the kind that precipitates an autoimmune flare-up.

The link to her videos is https://vimeo.com/album/3045295

Any advice or help would be appreciated, but most of all I need to find this dog a new home!


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## Jax08

Can you please PM me the name of this breeder?


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## applegate

*Two More Things...*

I forgot to mention two things:
1. The picture that may appear with my call name is not of this dog, but of the puppy from the breeder that I no longer have. I haven't yet figured out how to change that.
2. I am located in the Sacramento area of California.


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## mspiker03

Where in CA are you located? Applegate maybe?


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## mspiker03

The only advice I can give you is the name of a good trainer with a lot of GSD experience in your area (north of Sac on 80).


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## Castlemaid

Please do not post the breeders name - we have a no-breeder bashing rule, and customer/breeder disagreements should be dealt with between the affected parties, and the board is not to be used as a public dirty-laundry airing out place. 

Thank you, 

ADMIN


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## glowingtoadfly

Please pm me the name of your breeder.


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## Nigel

glowingtoadfly said:


> Please pm me the name of your breeder.


Me to please!


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## jrennie15

Nigel said:


> glowingtoadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please pm me the name of your breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> Me to please!
Click to expand...

Me as well please, as I am currently on a breeder hunt for a pup and have recieved lots of well known breeder recommendations. Thank you


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## applegate

*More...*

I am very aware of the board's policy not to mention the breeder's name. I did not mention it. However, my understanding is that I can tell people who inquire via PM.

I would also like to address the issue of "bashing." I am being excessively careful to mention FACTS only that are provable through videos, emails and testimonies of _multiple_ witnesses. Facts are not bashing, facts are facts. Do people have a right to make fully informed decisions when they are choosing a breeder? I chose this breeder in large part because of all the positive things written here. If one is unable to write about a negative experience, that is censorship and people can end up getting burned like I have. The value of this forum would be cut in half, wouldn't it? The mark of really good breeders isn't how they behave when customers are happy with their dogs, but rather how they behave for the hopefully few cases when their customers are not. Still, I haven't told most of the story in this post and I'm wondering if I'm getting the message that doing so isn't welcome here, even if it is factual and provable. Is anything negative "bashing," even when it's true?

Right now, I'm trying to find a home for a dog, so let's try to keep the focus there. Should she be re-homed? If so, how can I find someone who's willing to take her? I am trying to save this dog's life if I can. Is that not supported here?

I'd like to speak about having the dog evaluated. I have approached 7 trainers about an in-person evaluation. Not one wants to give me a written evaluation, which I want, because they do not want to get involved in a case against a breeder. They say the dog world is a small one. Most of them recommended that I go to a veterinary behaviorist, namely UC Davis, to rule out physical causes, to get a thorough, credible written report and because if the case does go to litigation, the training and qualifications of the expert reviewer are absolutely critical. The cost to do this is $530, and I frankly cannot afford that unless I have definitely decided to sue and think I can recover that cost. As I said, I am income challenged. What would be the point, then, of a verbal evaluation for a prospective owner? I have already detailed most of what they've told me. The other things they've said are subjectively critical of the breeder, and so I can't write about them here.


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## Lucy Dog

That is one fearful and anxious dog. The pacing, the nipping, the watchful eye. All signs of a scared dog lacking proper guidance. That dog is probably always going to be like this to some degree if you do decide to keep her. It's a shame this breeder has dumped this dog on you like that.


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## Baillif

You want to train your own service dog? Have you ever trained a dog to that level before?


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## Pretzels

Im so sorry for your situation and I hope you can find a good home for her and someone who is willing to work with her.  Would you mind PM-ing me the breeder's name as well?


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## Pax8

Baillif said:


> You want to train your own service dog? Have you ever trained a dog to that level before?


I'm curious about that as well. 

I have many people who approach me about training their own service dog. It takes much more work and requires an intensity of obedience and appropriate genetic temperament than many people realize... Do you have a trainer lined up who is supposed to assist you with this or are you planning on doing it entirely yourself?

As far as the current dog, it sounds like she should be rehomed. Hopefully someone else will be able to give you a contact that can help as I'm not familiar with your area.


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## wolfy dog

I saw all the videos and I feel so sorry for that dog. There was a tremendous amount of pressure on her with everyone staring holes in her, approaching her head on, nobody giving her structure but instead leaving her lost and having to fend for herself. You don't test a dog a few days after you get them but let them adjust for a few weeks. She should have never been put in a situation where she could bite people. Everyone failed her; her breeder, the "trainers" and her new home unknowingly as well. Very sad.
I agree that they never should have paired you up with a dog like that as she needs a very experienced handler. I don't understand the trainers that are too scared to write their findings? What kind of trainers are that? I (as a trainer) write honest reports, no matter how aggressive the dogs are and how tough the recommendations are sometimes. It is not always appreciated but that's our job. I you don't have the money, why did you spend $4000.00 + on these dogs? And now you don't have money to to take her to a behaviorist? What about bringing her back to the breeder and demand $2000 back or file a suit. I think this dog can be helped. Rescues only want the nice dogs due to liability issues.


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## applegate

Baillif, if you read the post again, you will notice that I was very mindful and specific in my wording: I said I wanted to train the dog to do a FEW mobility tasks. I put service dog in parentheses because that is what it would do for me and that is what I requested of the breeder, that she be capable of learning those kinds of tasks. I had planned to get assistance. Had the first puppy worked out, I would have had the funds to do that.



Baillif said:


> You want to train your own service dog? Have you ever trained a dog to that level before?


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## Baillif

Oh crap I didn't realize there was a video. That dog isn't fearful shes just a punk without any leadership.


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## Pax8

Just saw the video. So what are you doing to manage this behavior? Do you have any control over her at all? Or does she just blow you off when she feels like guarding people around you?


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## applegate

I knew when I posted these videos I would be blamed for not giving the dog guidance, which is why I tried to address that in the video descriptions. The dog was not "tested," as you say. In the video where she nips my partner, he was bringing his things in the house and the dog got progressively agitated. He'd already been here almost 20 minutes when this began to happen. I had no idea I wasn't sent a well adjusted dog, and as I wrote in the description (did you read them?), I was taken so by surprise that my first impulse was to pick up the camera and record. I can't record and manage the dog at the same time when things are happening. Plenty of things happened that weren't recorded because of this or because the camera wasn't handy or I wasn't prepared. My partner isn't very knowledgeable about how to approach a dog, so even though I asked him to ignore her and not give eye contact, he did what he did. The issue here is this, as I see it: a dog has to be safe even with people who don't know much about dogs, how to approach them, for example. You say she should never be put in a situation where she should bite people. Does that include every time someone comes to my home? Every time someone gets up out of a chair? (I don't think I uploaded a video of this, but I think I will now...) Every time someone walks out of my kitchen? Should I not be able to live with a dog in my home and have anyone over at all without having to muzzle or crate her? Please, be real... and understand that this dog was sent to a disabled person, someone with NO experience with aggressive behavior and I am not a dog trainer. I am just a person who loves GSDs and wanted a pet and a helpmate. Lighten up, please, and try to be understanding.

The $4,000 comes from the puppy fee, transportation fees to fly the puppy here, more transportation fees to bring this adult dog here which I was made to pay flying the dog across the country, and a great deal of training I did with the puppy I no longer have. Because I trusted the breeder, I unwisely threw good money after bad. My naivete, yes. My stupidity, yes. My being too trusting, yes. Guilty as charged.



wolfy dog said:


> I saw all the videos and I feel so sorry for that dog. There was a tremendous amount of pressure on her with everyone staring holes in her, approaching her head on, nobody giving her structure but instead leaving her lost and having to fend for herself. You don't test a dog a few days after you get them but let them adjust for a few weeks. She should have never been put in a situation where she could bite people. Everyone failed her; her breeder, the "trainers" and her new home unknowingly as well. Very sad.
> I agree that they never should have paired you up with a dog like that as she needs a very experienced handler. I don't understand the trainers that are too scared to write their findings? What kind of trainers are that? I (as a trainer) write honest reports, no matter how aggressive the dogs are and how tough the recommendations are sometimes. It is not always appreciated but that's our job. I you don't have the money, why did you spend $4000.00 + on these dogs? And now you don't have money to to take her to a behaviorist? What about bringing her back to the breeder and demand $2000 back or file a suit. I think this dog can be helped. Rescues only want the nice dogs due to liability issues.


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## Baillif

Someone in the know could end those behaviors in less than three days.


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## applegate

Baillif said:


> Oh crap I didn't realize there was a video. That dog isn't fearful shes just a punk without any leadership.


Bailiff, how did you get to be a knighted member? Wow.


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## Baillif

The real question is what did you do make that dog so out of control in such a small amount of time?


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## wolfy dog

applegate said:


> You say she should never be put in a situation where she should bite people. Does that include every time someone comes to my home? Every time someone gets up out of a chair? (I don't think I uploaded a video of this, but I think I will now...) Every time someone walks out of my kitchen?


This is the response I often get in cases like this. People think that I have a magic wand and when I leave.... poof! .....the dog is fixed. No, no, it takes work.
To rehabilitate this dog, this is exactly what needs to be done. She needs to be on leash at these times. She needs to learn to follow your cues and no longer have the responsibility to make her own decisions since no one else gives that to her. Every times she get a chance to bite, the behavior further ingrains.I assume she hasn't drawn blood? Dogs do what they intend, there is no "oh sorry I didn't mean to" in the dog world. It looks like her behavior is based on fear and she has learned that all that barking and nipping has worked for her, so it continues. By the way, these videos were very helpful to me.
And I agree with Bailiff, that any good trainer can help this dog. 
I don't think you are much at fault because you didn't know what you got yourself into and you are not experienced enough to get her straightened out and neither are the trainers you have hired so far. 
Have you tried the GSD rescue? Please do not put her down.


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## llombardo

The first thing I thought when I seen the video was that she is looking for guidance and doesn't seem to know what to do. Is there a GSD training club near you? Those places can be very cost effective for training. I don't think the dog needs much, she does need to feel safe and I don't think she does. You have a crate so maybe having her in a crate so she can take everything in around her might be a start.


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## katieliz

The question I find I'm asking myself (bailiff), is why do you find it necessary to be so unkind. whatever the situation, this person came here for help, and in the end that help would help the dog. aren't we all here because we love these dogs. I'm sorry, I'm just SO COMPLETELY od'd on unkind people.

to the OP...please understand this is the internet and there are all sorts of personalities here on this board. some are helpful, some are not. you have now run across one who is not. I have some of the same reservations and questions that others have posed, but I don't have any answers. I also have a dog who is fear aggressive resource guards me and is not safe around others. he is now 11 years old and although I am in a position that allows me to comfortably live with these behaviors (I put him away when others are around, muzzle him for vet appts, etc.), I won't make light of how much work and sometimes worry that is. going back to the beginning, I think you were not well matched with this girl in the first place, but I also think that once you saw what her behaviors were, in order to film them, you asked a lot of her when it comes to her clearly low level of tolerance. her temperament is clearly not sound. your choices are few. because of the way I feel about these dogs, and because once I have a dog, no matter how I've gotten it...bought, rescued, etc., that dog has a home for life and I do whatever I have to do to keep both the dog and others safe, I would give up on the idea of any kind of assistance dog, I would crate the dog when guests come over, i would immediately stop trying to acclimate her to others (strangers, partners, sisters, etc.), i would work with a behaviorist to at least understand how to make her able to attain her highest level of comfort with others, all of this ONLY if she NEVER exhibited any of this behavior with me. the minute that happened, i would assume the responsibility i always knew i would have likely have to assume one day, and I'd hold her while she was euthanized. there is little chance you will find a good home for her, a large chance she will meet an undesirable end if you rehome her anyway. i don't know, maybe someone here specializes in taking dogs like this...but i know of no one since mary sanderson from the white mountains of NH died (won the NJ powerball lottery and opened a sanctuary for dogs with behavior problems). i don't blame you for being very upset and angry with this breeder, somehow tho it "feels" like you're not going to be able to like this dog no matter what. again, tho, i acknowledge that this is not what you wanted in a dog in the first place. i am so sorry for the dog that this is happening, because i really do think there are no good answers at this stage of the game, and that ultimately it will be the dog who pays the price. maybe someone here has some better answers for you. i would be SO interested in hearing the breeder's side to this story tho, because i can't imagine a reputable breeder who would not take back a dog that their client was so unhappy with, no matter what the behaviors. and may i just say, in the kindest way i know how...the way the woman sitting down ruffs up the head and neck of the dog and talks baby talk to her is completely inappropriate for most shepherds and surely one who has "issues". i don't know, it's late and i don't feel like I'm being at all helpful, but these are just things i felt as i read your posts and watched the videos. i do hope you find a solution that is in the best interests of the dog.


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## katieliz

the post wolfy dog made while i was making mine is very good and if you have any interest in keeping this girl, should be more helpful to you than mine was.


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## katieliz

just went back and re-read your first post. i think all these suggestions are for naught because everything you state seems to point to the fact that you feel you have no choice but to place her somewhere else, euthanize her, or turn her in to a shelter, so you can make an attempt to find a dog that's more suitable for you. i also am beginning to wonder about the situation with the first puppy from the breeder, what exactly does that mean, the puppy wouldn't "bond" with you. how much time did you allow for the "bonding" to happen. i don't know, something just does not compute with me here. but i try to be understanding and at least kind...i just feel you've already made up your mind and given up on this dog.


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## Pax8

I can't speak for others, but I know my posts are slightly more hostile because from what I have read, I am getting off signals from the OP. A puppy is sent back because it doesn't "bond" that young? Kind of odd seeing as some work their dogs a year or more for a good bond. This current dog is sent as a replacement as a stable dog. Then we get videos of all the things happening, the nips and what not, but really no information about what has been done so far to manage it, techniques and how they were used and how the dog responded to them. As well as the general "given up" tone. 

Of course, I'm hoping the OP will prove me wrong and step up with some more background info and details on how this behavior has been managed and what has happened to make it seem so hopeless, but I'm still waiting...


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## katieliz

Well, the more I read and thought about this the more I wished I could hear the other side of the story. Because I'm thinkin there is one. If you've just gotten a dog you think is fear aggressive in any way, why would you "test" the dog who is clearly out of her comfort zone, and film it? It seems to me that this was whole thing was mismanaged from the get go and perhaps I was unnecessarily critical of baillif. Poor Willa.


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## applegate

The internet is a pretty good reflection of the mental health of our society, so I've noticed in all forums that there are always a few who use them to blame and abuse the OP, to make themselves feel superior, to vent hostility, so I expected that. Still, being attacked always hurts, even if you know the person is just unbalanced. Thank you, Katieliz, for your words of support. They really help.

I feel like I'm not being heard on a few points. The dog is wonderful with me, how could I not have love for her? But, and this is what people aren't hearing, I don't have the physical resources to deal with a dog that needs this much work (which is what every trainer told me was necessary). I am single, I have no help. They said it would take months, even years for a dog to get this way if stable, and at least months if not. All told me it was also long-term process to retrain and lots of physical work. I can't do it. It's not a choice, it's a reality. Do you think I chose to be disabled? Do you think I chose to have a degenerative, progressive bone disease, have a million surgeries and suffer from severe chronic pain? Do you think someone like me shouldn't have a dog at all because I can't do this kind of intensive training, even though I have lots and lots of love and a wonderful environment for a dog to offer? Do you think I shouldn't have a GSD even though I've had numerous other GSDs who were confident, gentle and wonderful with people? 

Furthermore, because of my health, my lifespan isn't long, and this is probably the last dog I will ever have. Should I be burdened for the duration of my life with a dog that I can't manage, can't take anywhere, and increases my stress levels considerably, making my health decline faster?

I can do normal training, but this amount of work is physically impossible for me. If you are healthy and can't understand that, then appreciate how lucky you are instead of blaming me for something you can't possibly understand. I'm simply amazed at the lack of compassion expressed by some here. I'm going to stop posting, because I came here to save a dog's life, not get blamed for her behavior the second day she's here when the first visitor arrives, for trying to protect myself and notify the trainer by filming, and for not being capable of doing the work she needs because I'm disabled and ill.

Honestly, how was I to show the breeder the dog's behavior if I didn't film it? How am I to provide evidence in a court case if I don't film it? There were only two of us in most of the situations, so I had to choose between filming and managing. Is that really so hard for people to understand? And do you assume that because I filmed in these instances that the dog is never getting any direction when she's not being filmed? Did you not notice that her leash is on in some of the clips? I don't understand the conclusions some of you jump to. 

And some of you aren't reading the posts. I already stated that rescues and no-kill shelters WON'T take her. They are inundated with dogs, they are being sued for dogs they place that bite, and so they now turn down the ones with behavioral problems, especially nipping and biting. It's not an option. I explored it. Posting here is my last resort, and much of what I'm getting is blame and judgment. To those of you have expressed compassion or given helpful suggestions, I'm truly grateful. You restore my faith in human nature, but you are the minority.

So for the last time, I CAN'T keep the dog because I CAN'T manage her. Instead of berating me for that, why can't some of you stop telling me I should be training her and make a constructive suggestion as to how to find a home? That is what I posted for.

I can see that this is largely an unproductive process. I feel so let down because if I can't find help among German shepherd lovers, there's no hope for my girl. I sooooooo wanted to find her a home. I don't, don't, don't want to put her down. But too many of the people who post here aren't interested in actually answering the OP's question. They morph it into something else so they can get on their soap boxes and lecture or judge or even brag about their expertise. I guess we all have an agenda we can't get past. SO incredibly disappointing...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Let's focus on the situation of the dog as this is posted in the rescue section. 

Are there people in CA who can help/are known to CA rescues for networking Willa? Sometimes this can be very helpful for dogs who were previously a no - they have adopters who like a certain kind of dog that they can refer, etc. 

Same question, but for local trainers. Some of you go to big training symposiums and meet people from all over. If there is someone who could work with them to get to a point of feeling like this is doable, please step up. 

I can't remember if I read the breeder will take the dog back? I would much rather take a financial hit that I couldn't afford than to have to put a dog that could possibly be rehomed successfully to sleep. Now I say this not knowing the breeder or what they are like, other than from what I've read here. Very few people could eat that amount of money, but would it be a savings in the long run if a poor match dog bites a less understanding visitor? 

Most importantly, Tufts has a program called Pet Fax. For only $250 and I know it has helped dogs here on this board: 
PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

It appears that this post is to also see if there are any on this board interested in adopting or asking if they know of someone who might adopt. Please read other similar owner threads in this section to get a better understanding of how this often works, everyone. 

Finally, while I do not love setting dogs up to fail (and do love a shutdown period of as long as is needed for them to adjust) these videos were filmed with the purpose of showing her behavior unguided, so that's why they are like that everyone. What is she like with guidance? How does she do with structure, NILIF, something like Dr. Yin's training? 

I want a dog, if I want a normal dog, that can allow people to look at them, walk by them, make dog language faux paus and not be snipey. I think that's what most people hope for in a balanced dog. This will be a nice, short-term project, long term great dog (most likely - I'm no psychic) and would respond well to positive methods in training, to give her the leadership she craves.


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## JakodaCD OA

I totally agree with JEAN"s POST ABOVE, maybe "some" should read it and re read it before posting. 

You know, "if you don't have anything helpful to add, don't post?" 

**Jean I did see the OP posted the breeder will not take the dog back**

With that, I'm sorry to the OP for having to go thru this and for receiving a dog that was misrepresented I am sorry for the dog, who seems to be lacking in confidence, confused, and yes , afraid , by being not sure just 'how' to act. 

I don't have any quick fixes for you, other than what Jean posted above. Are you on Facebook? Maybe try reaching out for help via Facebook via a group that could help rehab her. 

Since the breeder won't take her back, no shelters/rescue will touch her, trainers aren't willing to step up, I also hope someone here can network, step up and give you and willa some quidance.

AND YES, tell people to totally ignore her and NOT stare at her, staring can be perceived as a threat..

I hope you can find the help you need.


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## ksotto333

@ Applegate, 
I'm sorry for the quandary that you have ended up in. I can't imagine dealing with a stressful dog, along with having personal health issues. Hoping someone with resources that can help you posts soon. Good wishes for health.


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## Baillif

As some of you know I'm a trainer. I do this kind of thing for a living. I work with cases the OP has everyday. Usually I don't get a chance to actually see a dogs behavior in action when people post about having issues so I don't bother commenting.

The dog wasn't displaying fearful behavior in those videos, it was displaying learned behaviors because it figured out it could control people and keep itself entertained through nipping and intimidation. Given the awkwardness of some of the situations it was in there were some times it was unsure or anxious but you could even see more bouts of playfulness in the behavior than fear.

Lots of normal dogs will display behavior like that in the absence of any structure or proper handling. That behavior was created. The dog wasn't born like that. Not being able to create a bond with the first dog was a red flag, but not necessarily one for the breeder. Victims mentality has a way of blinding people to their roles in these sorts of things.

Some of the best dogs for training display these sorts of behaviors when they end up in homes that can't manage them. My advice. Find a trainer near you that can actually read as well as train dogs. A trainer. Not a vet behaviorist, but a real experienced trainer. Don't just slap a label on it assume it had nothing to do with you and give up on it.


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## scarfish

did someone delete my post or did ichange pages without hitting post?

i said i agree with ballif. in those videos the dog behavior is being encouraged. there's no leadership. when the dog jumped up and barked at the lady she went into defense mode put her arms up and backed up an inch. nobody even bothered telling the dog no. she should've inched forward and screamed "no".

when the visitor walked in, nobody said "no, down!". you have to be strict, on point, loud and in charge with GSDs or they will do whatever they want. i only watched 2 of the videos but i didn't see anyone acting in control in the 2 i watched.


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## llombardo

scarfish said:


> did someone delete my post or did ichange pages without hitting post?
> 
> i said i agree with ballif. in those videos the dog behavior is being encouraged. there's no leadership. when the dog jumped up and barked at the lady she went into defense mode put her arms up and backed up an inch. nobody even bothered telling the dog no. she should've inched forward and screamed "no".
> 
> when the visitor walked in, nobody said "no, down!". you have to be strict, on point, loud and in charge with GSDs or they will do whatever they want. i only watched 2 of the videos but i didn't see anyone acting in control in the 2 i watched.


The videos were meant to show us what the dog does. Now adding control and structure is good advice. I don't think the dog has serious issues based on the videos. I do believe that leadership is needed. I also don't think it needs to be physical. Voice alone can work if done right, but it needs to be done quickly before this dog decides to make the behavior permanent.


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## onyx'girl

Other than house time, what is Willa getting for exercise and training? Is she allowed to be a dog and get outside to sniff, play some fetch and enjoy herself?


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## carmspack

saw the videos --

put the camera down and interact with the dog .

resource guarding of OP? didn't see it . Saw a dog resting , person comes into room , who very well could have said something to the dog to put it at ease , instead of stiffly sneaking up.
The person holding the camera could have said something to the dog instead of facilitating confused behaviour , creating response by repetition, and then , yes she is body blocking . 
In one video guest comes into room and the dog is allowed to continue with confused behaviour . Someone even says that's a good boy while the dog is unsure on what to do.


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## MiraC

I can't view the video for some reason.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Since clearly this dog came from a breeder and there is a puppy agreement/warranty in place. And also, clearly, this dog is not a match for this new owner...

Then I'd just return the dog to the breeder before this keeps snowballing. Sometimes it shouldn't be about the money about about learning. And it seems like maybe the breed isn't a good match. Or at least any pups from this breeder and what they are breeding in relation to the background/experience of this new owner.

We should LEARN from situations and sometimes we learn we are over our heads. But the dog shouldn't suffer because I'm overwhelmed and it's not working out. Return the dog (and if you lose the $$$ so be it). LEARN from this and do better with the next dog.

Maybe a different breed? Maybe a smaller dog? Maybe a puppy is too much (puppies are HARD!). 

The smart thing, the RESPONSIBLE thing, is to consider the dog. All our dogs deserve to be loved and in the best place they can be. If that's back with the breeder while we reassess our needs and what really is best then that's the best decision.

Sending the dog to a shelter is NOT the responsible thing in ANY way.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> saw the videos --
> 
> put the camera down and interact with the dog .
> 
> resource guarding of OP? didn't see it . Saw a dog resting , person comes into room , who very well could have said something to the dog to put it at ease , instead of stiffly sneaking up.
> The person holding the camera could have said something to the dog instead of facilitating confused behaviour , creating response by repetition, and then , yes she is body blocking .
> In one video guest comes into room and the dog is allowed to continue with confused behaviour . Someone even says that's a good boy while the dog is unsure on what to do.


Carmen, I felt the same way, wanted someone to do (or NOT do) something, but earlier in the thread, I believe, the OP said that they purposely did not do or say anything, they wanted the videos to reflect her at her worst, I guess.

Susan


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> In one video guest comes into room and the dog is allowed to continue with confused behaviour . Someone even says that's a good boy while the dog is unsure on what to do.


I agree. I thought redirection or saying BE nice or good would be a good option.


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## Heidigsd

Did the breeder give an explanation as to why she wouldn't take the dog back? Does she know the dog might end up at a shelter if you can find a home for her?


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## joneser

OP, everyone here is trying to help, even if you are feeling personally attacked...which in this case, is because your original post is quite confusing. 

Honestly, it doesn't read as though you're looking for a new home...not until the last sentence do you detail that very clearly. You detail everything that is wrong with the dog, breeder, answers from rescues, and behaviorists. 

So, people are logically trying to close the gap for you...by saying that this dog, from the video, is not unstable, just unsure. 4 days into a new home, everyone is unsure! 

You stated you don't have the time or energy to train her. This lends itself to 2 other streams of thought.... 
1) How in the heck would you have trained a puppy
2) this new dog needs little effort (based on the video and other poster's opinions)

Next you state that you wanted to train the dog to help you with minor tasks. You've now heard from several experienced members on this board that what you're rehoming the dog for is "minor." Hence the questions about the gap in your own training ability.

Last, you then state you couldn't correct the dog AND video at the same time. So you allowed her to continue unwanted behavior in an effort to support your case...thereby further doing the dog a disservice by not managing her. You should never not be managing her. She's yours. 

In closing...
Your post should be much more clear:
"I don't have the time/energy/interest in training this dog, she's very sweet with me and needs more guidance/training than I am capable of offering. I'm in over my head and I don't want to put her down. She needs some basic house-manners, obedience, etc. Please help me find her the right home."


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## llombardo

Ok to be honest I have gone back to this thread several times. I have re-read it and watched the videos over and over. 

Here is my offer since the breeder is obviously no help. I am willing to step up and take this dog. I will pay for the flight and any of the things associated with the travel--health certificate. Crate, etc.

I feel she would do well in my home and I'm willing to work with her. She will be well taken care of and loved. 

To the OP,, I'm willing to help you out and would like to move fairly quickly since the holidays are coming. I can get her evaluated immediately and start working with her.

I am sorry that you are in this situation


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## LARHAGE

The question is WHY didn't YOU give the dog back to not only the breeder but the breeders friend who both wanted her back??? It was more important to you to slander her with these baited videos !!! I was present when you hung up on the breeder!!! The other puppy supposedly unable to bond actually bonded with her new owner on her drive home and is the best dog he has ever had!!! If you really ( which I doubt) want to give this dog away than contact me, but we both know that won't happen!!!!


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## Baillif

llombardo said:


> Ok to be honest I have gone back to this thread several times. I have re-read it and watched the videos over and over.
> 
> Here is my offer since the breeder is obviously no help. I am willing to step up and take this dog. I will pay for the flight and any of the things associated with the travel--health certificate. Crate, etc.
> 
> I feel she would do well in my home and I'm willing to work with her. She will be well taken care of and loved.
> 
> To the OP,, I'm willing to help you out and would like to move fairly quickly since the holidays are coming. I can get her evaluated immediately and start working with her.
> 
> I am sorry that you are in this situation


Should be easy for you. There is nothing wrong with the dog.


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## ugavet2012

My GSD acts like your "resource guarding me at 2 weeks" video, almost exactly. It most definitely is guarding me because she only does it when I'm home, no other time. She is perfectly nice and friendly to my fiancé otherwise. She is well bred but just very nervy. 

I would challenge anyone who thinks they can come to my house and fix this in a few days to do so and I will pay you even  but I assure you it wouldn't happen. I have tried everything, the only positive punishment that works sort of is an e-collar, she otherwise blows everything else off. I have tried counter conditioning, and training alternate behaviors--does not work with her. I have just given up and manage it. Not saying the OPs dog wouldn't be different, as mine is screwed up in the head unfortunately. I am not an amateur trainer, I have done a lot of behavior work and actually HAVE trained a service dog most of the way through training, and 3 dogs in IPO. 

I completely disagree that this is not a scared dog in the videos, if you watch the one with how she greets visitors, that is very scared, very fearful dog body language for sure. If anyone thinks that is how a well bred normal shepherd should act and she's just being a naughty punk, then the breed is doomed and I will never want another. 
Her behaviors actually remind me of all the poorly bred BYB shepherds I see and have to deal with. 

I would find a way to return the dog honestly. I think you could make her into something half way passable but it would take a ton of work, probably more than a normal confident puppy takes. It's sad that a supposedly reputable breeder tried to pawn this fearful dog off on you. Hopefully there's more to the story, but I would not knowingly purchase a dog who acted like the dog in those videos.


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## llombardo

Baillif said:


> Should be easy for you. There is nothing wrong with the dog.


Well the offer is on the table. I usually don't offer these things, but I feel bad for the OP. I was looking at adding another GSD in the future anyway now is as good a time as any


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## carmspack

this dog doesn't need to be put down ! 
all the videos show the people with stiff unnatural movements and behaviour . For a unsure dog that would raise her insecurity.
So why couldn't , didn't the puppy first obtained from the breeder bond with you? 
Since I don't have the benefit of knowing the details of the first pup experience , I have to ask you , what did you expect? What is a bond . How do you think it is developed?
Developed . 
So what was the reason behind this ? "The breeder refused to give me another puppy or refund my money, so this dog was my only option."
Has the pup you returned found another home and did that new owner experience what you did ?

quote OP "While this dog bonded with me immediately and is very loving"

"from the second day after she arrived, when visitors and landlords came to meet her" 

for what purpose? the dog doesn't even know you ? 
There was no need to put the dog on display to have a parade of strangers give her the critical eye , putting her into the center of attention. The dog is on stage with a spot light on her. Bad introduction. 

"owner resource guarding behavior, " ahhhhh , one pop analysis I'd like to put in the trash can . 

how does this happen? " The breeder has refused to take her back or compensate me in any way. I have so far lost almost $4,000 between her two dogs"

You had one pup purchased and returned and replaced with a more mature dog . Does that equal $4,000 

"She needs a strong leader with energy. I cannot do the training they suggest, however, as I have too little energy, have occasional autoimmune flare-ups, I have a mobility disability and I am single with a modest fixed income insufficient to cover such trainer costs,"

Must be difficult . I don't think a pup would be your answer.
If you need a dog for disability assistance can you apply with one of the institutes that partners trained and certified dogs for that purpose. Sterling is one such institution. I believe there are subsidies . Of course the potential owner needs to be evaluated to determine whether a dog is the best option for them. Main


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## Heidigsd

LARHAGE said:


> The question is WHY didn't YOU give the dog back to not only the breeder but the breeders friend who both wanted her back??? It was more important to you to slander her with these baited videos !!! I was present when you hung up on the breeder!!! The other puppy supposedly unable to bond actually bonded with her new owner on her drive home and is the best dog he has ever had!!! If you really ( which I doubt) want to give this dog away than contact me, but we both know that won't happen!!!!


I am very interested on what the OP has to say about this side of the story  I hope the dog will be returned to the breeder very soon!!!


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## ShenzisMom

OP, 
As someone who is currently in testing for auto-immune disorders I know some of what you're going threw. I know the flares and how you go from seemingly 'normal' to walking like an 80 year old and feeling like you can't accomplish anything. My point, is I know how frustrating it feels when you 'just can't even' anymore. Please, do the right thing and send the dog back to the breeder. I think when you look for a dog you should look for maybe a year or two old dog of another breed. Have you considered a golden retriever? Flat coat retriever? There are wonderful breeds out there who can assist you with your mobility issues that are not GSDs...Im sorry but you do not gel well with this breed from the videos you posted. Please do the right thing and research other breeds because I highly doubt 3ed times the charm. I know how rude that sounds...but im also writing this for future-me...I do not know if when I am ready for another stinker I will be able to care properly for a GSD anymore. There is no shame in it.


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## BowWowMeow

[I wrote this last night but forgot to post it--now it appears another side of the story is emerging. Hopefully the OP will return to this thread if she is sincere about the welfare of this dog.] 

The answer to your original question is yes, this dog can be trained out of these behaviors. Why not return her to the breeder and have them find her an appropriate home? She is obviously not a good match for your home and I'm sure they will gladly take her back, retrain her and place her elsewhere. 

That said, please stop videotaping her behavior and allowing her to harass your friends and run the show in your home! That just reinforces her idea that she is in charge and has to make the decisions about who can and can't enter your house, move around, etc. The dog clearly needs clear, confident and consistent leadership as she is making bad decisions again and again. 

I adopted a dog with similar behaviors and was able to rehab him but it was not a quick fix. However, this dog should absolutely not be euthanized! Please do the right thing and return her to the breeder. I sense the issue is money here so hopefully the breeder will return some of your money so that you can choose a breed more suitable for your home. 

Also, if you don't like someone's response then just move on to the next response. If this is really about the welfare of this dog then that is all you need to focus on.


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## Nigel

Baillif said:


> Should be easy for you. There is nothing wrong with the dog.


:thumbup::thumbup: yup, a good dog living in a confusing enviroment. OP, please do the right thing and return Willa to the breeder, She deserves it. There are other breeds that could do well in your home and provide the assistance you are looking for.


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## Cassidy's Mom

The OP did say that the breeder refuses to take the dog back. If that's true, then returning her is not an option.


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## scarfish

llombardo said:


> The videos were meant to show us what the dog does. Now adding control and structure is good advice. I don't think the dog has serious issues based on the videos. I do believe that leadership is needed. I also don't think it needs to be physical. Voice alone can work if done right, but it needs to be done quickly before this dog decides to make the behavior permanent.


exactly. i would just like to see how the OP is attempting to control/correct the dog and how the dog reacts to some obedience. the dog acts exacly like my first did when we brought her home at 4 months. no offense to the OP but i think she needs more training on how to handle a GSD. if this is her second GSD that isn't working as another said maybe she needs a different breed. i wish her luck either way!


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## ShenzisMom

Cassidys mom, Larhage posted another side to this story. .the breeder and trainer want her back.


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## Cassidy's Mom

ShenzisMom said:


> Cassidys mom, Larhage posted another side to this story. .the breeder and trainer want her back.


I saw that. But either the OP is under the impression that they won't take her back, or she's lying. Since I don't know her and have no information other than what's been posted here I'm not going to make an assumption one way or the other. :shrug:


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## scarfish

ShenzisMom said:


> Cassidys mom, Larhage posted another side to this story. .the breeder and trainer want her back.


+1 the breeder has been in contact with a number of people here via PM not to air all the dirty laundry in public. breeder has been trying for 2 months to get the dog back and reading their PM i believe it. i work in retail and there are always going to be crazy customers that you can never please and will stretch the truth and flat out lie for whatever reason i don't know. not saying this is the case but there are 2 sides to the story.


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## VTGirlT

OP, Willa looks like she has some major insecurity problems and doesn't know how to control her emotions, to me it looks like this has been a trigger turned into habit. "The memory stores and tells the brain DANGER! Before they have time to rationalize what is going on. This raw emotion of DANGER is triggered independent of and prior to thought. This poor control of their emotional state (like anger or anxiety) creates neural static in the brain shutting down a dog’s ability to learn. But fear _(or in this case insecurity) _not because intelligence can be brought to emotions by shifting their focus and attention away and focusing on commands and relaxation. It’s our job to teach them to relax around their triggers." And to me it looks like she already has some common clear triggers that spark her insecurity, just by seeing the videos. And when she is insecure, she lashes out to control her space. 
At least in the videos, the insecurity she has, is being fed into and constantly getting triggered.
(I am NOT a professional dog trainer, i do work with many dogs everyday, and sometimes with 20 dogs loose in a room together, so i do read body language well at this point.. But i am only getting a small amount of what is really going on through your video and what you say. Honestly it usually isn't just ONE thing why a dog acts the way they do)

She needs a really stable home, with someone who knows dogs well and how to read and manage them. A professional dog trainer would do Willa really well if you plan on keeping her.
I know you mean best for your dog, and i think its great you are willing post about it, there will always be people who disagree with you or put you down for things.. No one is perfect, and certainly there are no "perfect" dog owners. There are no two trainers who think alike 100%, i think that also goes for dog owners in general. 

*I would strongly suggest you let llombardo take Willa, Willa will be in excellent hands, there is no better option than that! *



llombardo said:


> Ok to be honest I have gone back to this thread several times. I have re-read it and watched the videos over and over.
> 
> Here is my offer since the breeder is obviously no help. I am willing to step up and take this dog. I will pay for the flight and any of the things associated with the travel--health certificate. Crate, etc.
> 
> I feel she would do well in my home and I'm willing to work with her. She will be well taken care of and loved.
> 
> To the OP,, I'm willing to help you out and would like to move fairly quickly since the holidays are coming. I can get her evaluated immediately and start working with her.
> 
> I am sorry that you are in this situation


Your amazing!  I would love for Willa to be in your home! Your pack and you would be perfect fit for her! (If i die can you take Zelda?)


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## Saphire

I don't want to berate this OP. Regardless of whatever is going on in this home, this dog is not suitable nor a good match for this person. It doesn't matter why, what matters is this dog gets to a place that is good for her. I don't care if it is the breeder or not, just someone who has the ability to work appropriately with this girl. 

Some dogs don't click with some people, identifying and accepting that is a huge. A lot could learn from this.


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## LARHAGE

Cassidy's Mom said:


> The OP did say that the breeder refuses to take the dog back. If that's true, then returning her is not an option.



NOT TRUE!!!! Willa was immediately requested back multiple times.


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## Sunflowers

Something doesn't make sense here. The OP needs to explain why she is looking for a home if the breeder requested the dog back.


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## wolfy dog

After a PM from the breeder, which makes me understand the situation a lot better. This could end up in a court case and this thread is plenty of proof against the OP (this is my opinion only). So Mrs. Applegate please give this dog back and stop your drama and save yourself the court fees.
I hope the breeder will come forward on this forum and explain his/her side of the story.
To the breeder: I would buy the dog from her to get her back or sue.


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## Castlemaid

I think this is more about a buyer/breeder disagreement than about placing the dog. I do believe that the OP has had NUMEROUS offers already from this board about taking the dog, so a positive solution to a confusing problem has been found. 

This thread is locked then.


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