# Is my dog turning me into a pez?



## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

Training question, doing my beginning ob with Warden. I spit hotdogs to reinforce behavior. Here is my question:

I use a "look" command to get him to....look in a basic heel position. Well I get the impression that he is turning his head away just so I can say look again and he can get rewarded. He knows what the command means. How do I get a look everytime that stays there? (even after i spit the hotdog) I understand he is young and his attention span isnt there yet, but is he just outsmarting me? Is it ok to give a minor pop on the leash to get his attention back without resaying the command to let him know that look means look until i release him? 

edit: dog is 10months


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Start by making him hold the "look" command longer and longer between command/reward. I would also start using some different rewards too (verbal praise, different treats and a toy reward) so he is not expecting a hot dog every time he looks at you. I would also start mixing up where the reward comes from: mouth, right hand, left hand etc.


----------



## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

yeah i have been doing the wait longer, he waits till he gets the hotdog then turns away. Ha. Yup i think it is time to introduce the balls in to the training now. I do question the rewarding from hands, I always reward from up high and have been taught this way from the beginning. I either drop a ball from my pit, or reach my right arm over top my head and relase it. Otherwise I have seen dogs focusing on the trainers hand or pockets when they should be looking them in the eye.


----------



## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

LOL. That is so funny. I agree with Amaruq with this and will prob do it w my dog too


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

An intermittent reward schedule and varying the amount of time he has to look before getting the reward is the place to start. A light pop on the collar and/or light verbal correction when he does look away, followed by praise when he looks back, will help clarify it for him too.



> Originally Posted By: dreamofwrx I do question the rewarding from hands, I always reward from up high and have been taught this way from the beginning. I either drop a ball from my pit, or reach my right arm over top my head and relase it. Otherwise I have seen dogs focusing on the trainers hand or pockets when they should be looking them in the eye.


Problem with this is that the dog may still be looking for the treat/ball and not looking at *you*. It may look like he's looking at you because you are rewarding from up high, but he may very well be doing the same thing as those other dogs who are looking at hands/pockets. It's just not as obvious because of where you are holding the reward.

Using lures near the focal point (so up by the face in this case) to bring about the correct behavior so it can be rewarded, and thus the dog has a chance to learn what the correct behavior is, is always the first step. But once that is learned, the dog needs to realize that he's being rewarded for looking at that specific focal point, be it face or hip or armpit or whatever you want it to be, not just at the reward that happens to be in the general vacinity. 

IMO, better to teach the dog to look at the *handler* regardless of where the reward comes from. Reward can be in a hand, in a pocket, on the ground 50' away.. it doesn't matter if the dog has learned that looking at the handler earns the reward, not looking at the reward itself or the place from which the dog thinks the reward will magically appear. 

When you can wave a toy all over the place in front of the dog and then toss it a dozen yards away and the dog maintains eye contact throughout.. that is a dog who truly understands focus and will perform proper focus regardless of where the reward is, or even if there is a reward anywhere nearby.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Examples of 3 different dogs to illustrate my point. Notice the location of their reward toy compared to where they are looking.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: yeah i have been doing the wait longer, he waits till he gets the hotdog then turns away.


Because for him that's the end of the sequence. He's done the "action" and gotten the reward, so he thinks he's done.

I train watch me with a clicker and the treats stay in my hand. I click when the dog makes eye contact and then he gets the treat. Over time I increase the amount of time the dog must maintain eye contact before he/she gets the click and treat. When I'm consistantly getting the behavior, at that point I add the "watch me" command and the release. This is the best method I've found for us and results in dogs that keep eye contact for as long as it's requested because the dog is looking at me and not the treat/toy and they've never learned to release themselves if I've given the command.


----------



## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Chris. Ivan teaches it that the dog focuses on your face no matter where the reward. When the dog looks away, give a quick correction and then reward. Joschy would do this, I'd say, aack, quick jerk, maintain focus a little longer, each time he would look away, another correction until it was held however long I wanted him to do it. Then reward


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> I train watch me with a clicker and the treats stay in my hand. I click when the dog makes eye contact and then he gets the treat. Over time I increase the amount of time the dog must maintain eye contact before he/she gets the click and treat. When I'm consistantly getting the behavior, at that point I add the "watch me" command and the release. This is the best method I've found for us and results in dogs that keep eye contact for as long as it's requested because the dog is looking at me and not the treat/toy and they've never learned to release themselves if I've given the command.


This is exactly the sort of method I use to teach it, though I use verbal markers rather than a clicker.


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

As usual Chris explained what I was thinking better than I could say it.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Yes. 

What I think has happened here is similar to the methods a lot of people use to teach their dogs to sit which results in a dog who slaps their butt on the ground, gets a treat, and pops up again looking for another go round. The dog is doing what he thinks he's been trained to do - look at the face, get a treat, look away - repeat as necessary. So I would debate that he "knows" the command at least in the sense that the OP wants it to be understood. 

If it were me, I'd back up and re-teach the sequence without using the command at all. Hold the treats in your hand and click or use a verbal marker when he makes eye contact. Gradually increase the amount of time you're getting eye contact before you mark and treat the behavior. Then try adding the command back in.


----------



## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: dreamofwrx Is it ok to give a minor pop on the leash to get his attention back without resaying the command to let him know that look means look until i release him?


Just to add to everyone else's points...I wouldn't reward until you actually release him. I'll give a "watch" command, and the dog has to maintain eye contact until the release que is given. "OK!" Then reward. If he looks away before your release que...a slight correction is appropriate I think (if he fully understands the command of course).

I also vary the length of time before releasing, ranging from a second or 2 to about a minute. Also vary the reward. Sometimes no food and just praise, sometimes frisbee, sometimes food, etc etc.


----------



## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

Thanks everyone, I will take the advice given and work on it!


Edit: going back and reading the posts a second time it seems a key point i am missing in my training is a verbal marker. Is this where i wait for the eye contact say my verbal marker (ex: good or clicker) and then reward. When he does this automatically with some practice then i subsitute the command in "good's" place?


----------



## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

to extend the time, yes.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I use verbal praise ("good watch") as the dog is looking at me. Negative verbal marker ("eh eh") if the dog looks away. Then praise again when the dog looks back. And always give the release word ("free") before giving the reward.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

What the marker is doing for you is letting him know "yes! This is what I want! You're doing it right!" without muddying up your command or allowing him to think it's "exercise finished." It allows you to reinforce the behavior while still in the activity. Like, if I'm teaching sit or down, I'll treat the dog periodically while they're still sitting. The way a lot of training is done, it's really easy to accidently train the dog that getting the food means the end of the exercise so you have dogs releasing themselves or jetting to the end to get the treat and do it again.


----------



## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

thanks guys, makes sense.


----------

