# Natural Dog Training



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

I stumbled upon this while looking for info on ways to strengthen recall and wondered what you guys thought about the methods this guy uses. Has anyone used it successfully? I have to admit I'm skeptical and yet, oddly drawn to the concept.

Welcome to the Natural Dog Blog - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More

Here are few tidbits of his explanation of NDT:

"In Natural Dog Training, you learn how your dog processes the world, emotionally, and then you learn specific techniques that make you the center of your dog's emotional universe. You learn how to work with your dog's most social and cooperative instincts, their hunting instincts. And your dog learns to trust you, to turn to you for an answer to the question of "what do I do...now?" (i.e. what do I do with my energy?) in any situation, no matter how challenging."

And...

"One of my favorite definitions, and maybe the simplest, is that we don't focus on being in control of the dog's behavior. If we set things up right, emotionally, the dog will happily control his own behavior so that it's always in alignment with our wishes and desires."


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

When you have something new to sell, you make it sound difficult, mysterious and inovative. So far, I see smoke and mirrors.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

In my quest for great training info, I ended up here. Never heard of this guy and I doubt he has anything better to offer than what I can learn here and a few other places I visit.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

He lost me with this statement: _Part of the art of Natural Dog Training is learning how to balance those aspects of yourself, your inner mooseness..._

Our inner mooseness??  Seriously the site is really large but doesn't actually say much. Too slick for me.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> He lost me with this statement: _Part of the art of Natural Dog Training is learning how to balance those aspects of yourself, your inner mooseness..._
> 
> Our inner mooseness??  Seriously the site is really large but doesn't actually say much. Too slick for me.


Me too? He wants me to be a Moose....not an Alpha.....a Moose. Dogs eat moose. I think I will just be me, no moose, no alpha, just Jeff


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks for your input. I did a double-take at the mooseness, as well. Channelling my inner moose doesn't come naturally to me.

Ezra is 8 months old and I'm ready to step it up. He's got the basics down, working on recall with distractions & increasing the length of stay. But I want more, moRE, MORE! 
I do believe that agility or maybe even SchH will be in our future. I have the time to commit, will have to figure out $. Forget about Ez, *I* need something to do with all my energy!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the word _Natura_l is a buzzword, used to sell most everything...I agree with DFrost!
You'll never learn on the internet what you can learn hands on with a great trainer that specializes in your training goals.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I just looked over the site. It's not terrible.

I like his article on tugging
How to play tug of war with your dog – and have the happiest dog on the block. - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More

And this one on getting the dog to push you for food and play is good too.
Natural Dog Training Fundamentals: How to relax and attract your dog using pushing - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More

I wouldn't pay for any of this info but the free stuff there are not bad.


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## neilsattin (Jan 18, 2011)

*pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for taking some time to check out my site.

A few thoughts:

DeeMcB: I'd say that the main reasons that I frequently end up working with people are to help strengthen the recall (although there are some steps along the way that contribute to that outcome) - or to help solve problems (like aggression, anxiety, hyperactivity, etc.). Even if you don't buy into the whole theory/approach completely, I think you'd find that playing tug and "pushing" (according to the instructions in the links that Jason L posted) to be really helpful with the recall. 

Here's another link that sums up some of my thoughts on the steps further along the path to the rock-solid recall:
Get Your Dog to Come When Called No Matter What - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More

Realizing that the whole "mooseness" thing can be off-putting (DFrost, Denali Girl, Whiteshepherds), another way to sum up what I try to teach is:


How to increase your dog's attraction to you - particularly when they're in a high state of drive (as those are generally the times in the "real world" when communication, or a recall, are most important)
How to help your dog relax (which is a key aspect of their staying focused when energized) - and minimize stress for them.
How to turn your dog's attraction to other things in the environment (squirrels, cats, other dogs - and particularly the things in their environment that "trigger" unwanted behaviors) into a stronger attraction to you.
How to use that attraction to elicit obedience behaviors (and resolve the stress and tension at the root of problem behaviors).
That's pretty much it in a nutshell, although increasingly I've been also focusing on another key component, which is:


Overcoming the obstacles in a person's approach to working with their dog (i.e. the "Inner Game") - as those things might actually be standing in the way of getting the results they want. As I'm sure many of you here are aware, it's often the habits of the owner that create the habits of the dog - and so changing a dog's "habits" often comes down to changing a person's habits.
The "moose" is a metaphor that's _supposed_ to help in understanding the prey/predator dynamic happening within a dog as they process their environment emotionally. 

It's good feedback to hear that it didn't quite make sense to you - or that it seemed like "smoke and mirrors" - my goal with the Naturaldogblog has been to make it all crystal clear for people - which is why there are so many words on the site, I guess. I *think* (hope) you'd find the articles to be clarifying, not mystifying. That being said, because I have written many of the articles on the site in a sequence - some of the later articles might make less sense without the context of the earlier ones. So thank you for your criticism, and I hope you don't mind if I take it constructively.

And DeeMcB, I think you're right - that "channeling your inner mooseness" doesn't always come naturally, *at first*. But in my experience, the more people learn about the method, the more they see things that make sense whether they're looking for a paradigm shift or not. 

If you're into "Alpha" - then you might see a different explanation for why the alpha things work the way they do.

If you're into +R, or OC, then you might simply see some interesting techniques that don't require a "new paradigm" in order for them to be useful.

Many people with whom I work haven't found the success/relationship with their dog that they are looking for with mainstream dog training methods. Often those people really resonate with the approach that I write about. 

I was actually one of those people, back when I happened upon "Natural Dog Training" - if you read the bio on my site, you'll see that I had a hopelessly aggressive dog who would have rather chased squirrels for months on end than come when called. When mainstream methods seemed to be failing me (and trainers - who one would assume would have an interest in helping - were telling me to euthanize my dog), I decided to look for an alternative. 

At the time my dog was 6 - she's nearly 14 now. While I might have to rely mostly on hand signals now (she's gone deaf in the past 6 months), she comes when I call, and gets along with other dogs. I'm certainly glad I didn't take the "advice" that was offered to me way back when.

My hope is simply that you'll try the things out, with an open mind, and see what the results are for you.

Best, and happy new year!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

So if my dog wants to go after a deer I should pet her while she is all riled up then run away because she will naturally chase after me instead of the deer. Then when she catches up to me I should wrestle with her because then she'll know what catching a deer feels like and not want to do it anymore? This guy wants you to buy his DVD's and books- he has more than a loose screw IMO and obviously hasn't tried the whole deer and running away thing,lol


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## ChristineG (Jan 19, 2011)

*RE: Be the Moose...*

Well, I just have to say that I have visited Neil Sattin's Natural Dog Training blog. I did because my middle dog (GSD mix) was having issues with my 3rd dog (another GSD mix). Other training techniques did not seem to help and he (Duncan) was just getting worse. I was looking for a particular trainer and just happened upon Neil Sattin's dog blog. It appealed to me right away and I got the whole "Be the Moose" metaphor; perhaps it's because I'm a fan of Dave Mech (top dog in all things wolf) and I've also read "Of Wolves and Men" by Barry Lopez.

In the wolf world, young adults don't have to be taught to heel, sit, down, stay or any other action as they know them instinctively. For example, they "heel" alongside the moose as they're running it down, they go "down" and "stay" in anticipation of jumping out at a deer or moose wandering nearby. The moose is THE most exciting thing to a wolf and they always come when the moose calls...no matter what. So I get the whole moose thing. And no, that doesn't mean that you want your dog to hunt you down like it would a moose but it does mean that you MUST be the most exciting thing in your dog's world so that he'll come when called no matter what. That is it in a nutshell for me...I want to be the center of my dogs universe. I don't like negative reinforcement and I found positive reinforcement way too exhausting, and neither method worked for my Duncan. Natural Dog Training is working, to the extent that I practice the techniques. The notion that you could "elicit" the desired obedience rather than impose or demand it is so much more user-friendly for me and fits in nicely with my vision of what I want to be able to do with my dogs.

These days, where Duncan used to be terminally tense, never relaxed and would explode without warning, he is now relaxed and supple. Instead of his jaw always being shut tight, it is frequently open and relaxed with tongue lolling. I see him so much more playful and joyful than before. And I'm not even a faithful practitioner of Natural Dog Training; I've never met Neil Sattin or Kevin Behan in person nor trained with them. I've only perused their web sites and off-handedly practiced a few of the techniques. Imagine the results I'll get when I really apply the methods whole-heartedly! I have to admit that, for me, most of the changes in my dogs have come about mostly because I've changed how I look at my dogs and their behaviors. It's no longer me trying to force them to fit into my ideals, afraid that they'll misbehave in some way. The most valuable lesson I've learned from NDT is that everything my dogs do is right, they are never wrong. It's my job to ensure that they know when to bite, what to bite and "to bite or not to bite". It's my job to answer these questions: "What do I do with all my energy?" and "Where's the danger?" When I do those things well enough, often enough, my dogs will trust me and THEN they will come...no matter what.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

neilsattin said:


> Hey Everyone,
> Thanks for taking some time to check out my site.


I want to say I apologize for making light of the _inner mooseness_ thing but I can't. It makes me laugh everytime I say it. I didn't know we all had a moose waiting to get out, but I guess that explains why my jeans are getting tight. 

Seriously, kudos to you for jumping in and letting people know there's a person behind that website and for defending something you believe in! I will say I apologize for saying your site was slick. Until Jason L pointed out your blogs I hadn't noticed them...so there was more there than I thought originally. 
Best of luck to you and those who follow your training methods.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Ah, this is that guy who has all sorts of wonderful theories about how wolves actually hunt moose in defense [the drive], isn't it?

Hint: Dogs aren't being aggressive when they chase squirrels.

Applying wolf behavior [to include Dave Mech's research into wolf family dynamics] to domestic dogs fails to take into account the crucial fact that we've selectively bred dogs for temperament and behavior.


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## ChristineG (Jan 19, 2011)

Perhaps, but the underlying mechanics and principles remain the same. And whose to say that all that breeding and refining has eliminated the heart of the wolf from all canines. After all, people can be trained and refined for all kinds of special tasks/careers, etc., and yet they still remain human. I know...apples to oranges but still...just sayin'. 
I can't help but wonder why it seems so hard to consider another point of view as having merit even though you don't agree or understand it fully. Why is it so easy to fall back on ridicule? 
After all, lively and intelligent discussion relies on differing viewpoints; that's how new ideas get refined or eliminated. Here's a thought...you could always put NDT methods to the test and try them on for size. It's just another way to honor our beloved pets and allow them to be the dog(s) they are meant to be.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Lively intelligent discussion involves having your viewpoints challenged.

Support them with something. You're just being defensive.

Give me a reason to throw almost three years of training out the window to try your method. How many dogs have you titled with this method?

And again... Dogs who chase squirrels aren't being aggressive. I question the ability of anyone who believes that, to teach a dog anything.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

SchDDR said:


> Give me a reason to throw almost three years of training out the window to try your method. How many dogs have you titled with this method?
> .


A whole "almost 3 years"?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

It would be hard for me to have over three years invested into a dog who doesn't turn three until next month.
I'm not aware of a way to train a dog in utero.


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

As was previously stated, I do believe that some of the ideas presented in NDT are sensible (ie, playing tug). In fact, they piqued my interest enough that I went and bought tug toys today and spent some time engaged in games with Ezra. The idea of playing tug with your dog isn't new, revolutionary or unique to NDT, though. 

I also wonder - and perhaps our Stalker....I mean, uh, Neil - will chime in on this. Who is the population you are marketing NDT to? Are you marketing to the average pet owner who is having problems with the "activities of daily living" with their dog, or are you targeting owners who seek to show & title their dogs? Maybe there isn't enough of a difference but I sensed from the site & comments that most of your clients were the former (as am I). I would imagine that Joe Dog Owner might be more open to the techniques than someone who showed their dogs and had history & research on their side.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Interesting!

I'm not seeing where this method is any different or special then the hundreds of methods that are out there already being/been taught?

Using a long line, using the dogs basic instincts, etc.. Not all dogs have prey drive nor will they have any desire to tug..

I'm going back to read more...


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## seb8 (Jan 20, 2011)

DeeMcB said:


> I also wonder - and perhaps our Stalker....I mean, uh, Neil - will chime in on this.


That's a bit unfair. It's either a discussion about dogs, and you'd like to learn more, or you really don't want to hear what he has to say. And how could it possibly be the former when you're criticizing the fact that he chimed in in the first place?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Anytime you put a link up of a person's website, they are now involved with the discussion. I wouldn't consider him a stalker either, and am glad he posted. Welcome to you seb8, how did you find this place and do you have GSD's? 
ChristineG....glad you found us too


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## neilsattin (Jan 18, 2011)

*honorifics*

At least you capitalized the "s" in stalker! 

@DeeMcB

To generalize (so this isn't 100% the case, but mostly so), I'd say that the people with whom I work are interested in:


First and foremost, a stronger connection with their dogs. This is hard to quantify, but it's the kind of thing that "feels right" on a gut level - and seems to be one of the first things that people mention to me when they work with the techniques of NDT (and assorted other people-related things that I teach).
Functional obedience: Will my dog come when called no matter what? Can I still communicate with my dog under moments of high intensity? Will my dog heel when I need them to, and otherwise stay nearby (if off-leash) or avoid yanking me around (if on-leash)? Etc.
Solving problems: aggression, anxiety, hyperactivity, over-submissiveness, etc. There seem to be a lot of people who have these problems despite having a relatively "obedient" dog.
More centered, balanced lives in general. Because my experience of dogs (and how I've been taught to work with dogs) centers around them as primarily emotional beings, and because I believe them to be quite sensitive to the emotions in their environment, you might not be surprised to know that I often work with their people around some of the human emotional dynamics in a family. The goal here being to help people simply live better lives, with better relationships, etc.
re: tug. Given the number of clients/readers/etc. who have been surprised at the *way* we teach to play tug-of-war (and the persistent CW that it somehow causes aggression, or that if you do play you shouldn't let your dog win, et al.), I think it's reasonably safe to say that there's something unique about it. At least in the way it's incorporated into the entire systematized approach.

@SchDDR

Point of clarification - I'm not sure why you think I believe a dog is being "aggressive" when they chase a squirrel. I'm reasonably certain that I never said anything like that.

I did write an article about how to re-channel a dog's energy (excited OR aggressive) when you're "on a walk" - and used the squirrel as an example. Maybe that's what you're talking about? I see how it could be confusing, the way that I lumped excited/aggressive together like that. I do see those things as part of the same continuum of behavior (and the exercise, as described, can work well with many dogs in a situation that triggers "aggression"). But in that article I'm simply talking about a dog who's "excited" by a squirrel.

Oh, if only I had an editor.

Link for everyone's reference:
Dog Training: How to redirect an excited or aggressive dog on a walk - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More

If a dog is chasing a squirrel (not all dogs will, of course), then one might ask "why"? At the most basic level, I would say that a dog is simply _attracted_ to the squirrel. And if the dog is chasing the squirrel rather than coming when called, then it's fair to say that the dog is more attracted to that squirrel than he is to the person doing the calling. It's not saying anything about this person in general, or their "attractiveness" in the human world.

This is where the whole "mooseness" thing comes into play. 

(And @whiteshepherds, I understand completely how a phrase like "inner mooseness" could sound a little ridiculous - esp if one happens to just walk in on the conversation.)

As I alluded to in my first post, "The Moose" is simply a metaphor for understanding the things that attract a dog on an emotional level, and that repel a dog on an emotional level. In my experience, the ability to achieve 1-3 above can be described as a function of that attraction. 

In other words - when your dog is energized, how "attracted" to you are they in that moment? What can you do to create even more attraction (hint: in the NDT world, it's through finding ways to allow your dog to release energy, or stored stress, with you)? 

Or, conversely, how might what you do be repelling your dog?

And _particularly_ when it comes to overcoming behavior problems, that attraction a dog feels towards their person seems to create a zone of safety that allows owners/dogs to work through those problems.

I'm not saying it can't be done other ways. I'm simply saying that this way works well for me and, for the most part, the others who choose to give it a whirl. Especially if their goals are in alignment with what I stated above. 

All my best - Neil


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

neilsattin said:


> I was actually one of those people, back when I happened upon "Natural Dog Training" - if you read the bio on my site, you'll see that I had a hopelessly aggressive dog who would have rather chased squirrels for months on end than come when called.


Based on this, and the description on your site that you refer the read to, the only problem this dog had was chasing squirrels. Where is the aggression?


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## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

My apologies to anyone who took the "stalker" comment the wrong way. That was my lame attempt at being funny. In fact, I sent Neil a Personal Message teasing about the same thing since he showed up on the forum for the first time within minutes of my post.


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## seb8 (Jan 20, 2011)

ah, gotcha. thanks for the clarification!

and thanks for the welcome. we have two GSDs. I've read this forum before awhile back, but just never actually participated!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Hi Neil, thanks for coming aboard.

I have a question about your article on relaxation, which mentions massaging, tug of war, praise etc. Most of the time I read about dog stress, the advice is to not pay attention to the dog when he's in that state, the idea being that somehow your attention will be a "reward" for a dog being in that state. Like when getting ready for a walk, if the dog starts panting/shaking with excitement/anxiety/stress, the advice is to not reward that by putting his leash on until he's more relaxed. The leash is a reward, and praise/massage/attention can be seen as a reward too, though I'm surmising that they may be two distinct types of rewards, after all, one brings relaxation.

Another thought is, in a pack of dogs, how would the other dogs help an anxious/stressed dog? Would they do something comforting to him, or would they ignore him? (I recognize that humans are not dogs and that we may be able to do things "better" than dogs would do, I'm just curious here).

On the flip side, as a human, I could envision that, if I were in a stressful situation (say I was sitting waiting for a job interview), if I were being massaged or talked to nicely and praised, it would help me feel more relaxed in that situation. I do not think as a human, I would take those positives and that it would encourage me to feel stressed so that I could receive those rewards again. But who knows.

So, I am sure you've thought about this and would welcome any input or clarifications.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I know my trainer recommends massage but not when the dog is already stressed. It should be done before entering the dog into a situation where you know stress is likely. For us we massage Zoe BEFORE we know guests are coming to calm her down. It's about putting the dog in the best place possible before a stressor to help them manage. Not sure how Neil uses massage btw- thats just what we have been doing


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hey Neil, I think your intentions are good and I honestly believe that a new dog owner will benefit greatly from your program and I wish you the best of luck!!

With that being said, you mention a lot about the "recall". Please keep in mind that there are people here like schddr and many others that are involved in such things like Schutzhund, SAR, Agility, PPD, so on and so on. I honestly don't think they are having recall problems or are willing to take on a new way of training when they are currently using a tried and true way or training.

I do like some of the articles on your site like the tugging theory but that isn't that new? Anyway like I said, I wish you the best with what you are doing as it appears to be positive.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Do dogs really massage each other to make the other feel better? Or wolves in the wild? 

Better have a talk with my pack of dogs, because they are certainly missing out or aren't doing things correctly!!

I think there's a lot of mixed messages going on here! But then again that doesn't surprise me!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I know that the "Control Unleashed" protocol calls for soothing touch with a massage-like component during mat work. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, so I can't speak specifically to how far over threshold the dog is during this procedure, but if I remember correctly it is used to calm and bring a dog back under threshold once the dog has been conditioned to the idea of using the mat and the soothing touch as a stress reliever.
Sheilah


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

The only hands on I've heard about is Tellington TTouch..


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