# Rear end awareness- Critique?



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Took this video today of Frag doing perchwork, and I wanted some critique to see if I'm on the right track or messing anything up. It's taken this long to get him half-way used to the idea and offering it, before he would CONSTANTLY fall off the perch. Had to move from books up to coke cases as you can see.













 
What I guess I may be a little confused at is how EXACTLY this helps with finding heel? Am I supposed to be commanding this with a verbal, or is it something he should pick up and realize to do (maneuver his butt) when we're in a heel? 

As you can see, still fading the lure. Today was the first day I actually got him to maneuver around me and find heel with the lure, so I started fading right away and there are no treats in my hand for any of this, just an empty hand. 

SO, am I doing this right?

eta- please ignore the barking doofus at the end and the clumsy German Shepherd whom cannot keep his feet on a box to save his life.







Oh, and I'm sorry my butt's right there in everyone's face- didn't mean for that to happen! ​


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

The only thing I would do differently is to ensure you are rewarding the behaviour you want - not after the fact.

As he is moving click or give a marker for that. 

This is just an exercise to teach a dog to move his back end or that he has one!

It comes in handy with things like the flip finishes (from front position flipping to left into basic position) also when jumping over the retrieves/wall/agility courses.

I have been working on flip finishes with Stark (need a video because he is rockn' them!) and I totally believe that perch work helped.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I saw someone doing this with horses at the farm park. But then they got all four feet on the box.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

try something like a rubber feed tub from tractor supply. He's slipping off the box, not stepping off of it.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> The only thing I would do differently is to ensure you are rewarding the behaviour you want - not after the fact.
> 
> As he is moving click or give a marker for that.
> 
> ...


Alright. I have been doing both- marking for moving in the beginning and now marking for finding heel. Should I still be doing it the other way?



Jax08 said:


> try something like a rubber feed tub from tractor supply. He's slipping off the box, not stepping off of it.


Well NOW he's slipping off of it because he's too excited, but he used to just get off it because he didn't realize what I wanted. A rubber tub would still be a good idea, he moves EVERYTHING else around and causes problems.


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Alright. I have been doing both- marking for moving in the beginning and now marking for finding heel. Should I still be doing it the other way?
> 
> Well NOW he's slipping off of it because he's too excited, but he used to just get off it because he didn't realize what I wanted. A rubber tub would still be a good idea, he moves EVERYTHING else around and causes problems.


I also mark for both. However, now that he "gets" that he's supposed to stay on, the behavior has to continue for longer before he gets marked. I ONLY mark when he's in Front position, Side position or Fuss position - that way there are only three spots that are "good". Regardless of how we are moving. 

I started marking for finding Fuss when I knew he had a good grasp of the two activities separately. I lured as well but it wasn't needed so I dropped it. 

I think rubber and smaller would be good. It seemed to me that he was trying to be aware of not getting on it with his back feet too. I use a tub that is JUST big enough to hold Madix's front paws side by side. He has to be super precise to keep his feet on there. I am HOPING once we tie everything together that his finding heel position will be sharp and correct b/c he'll be keeping his front feet in relatively the same position while getting into heel. I have cut the bottom off another rubber tub and I'll be using that next week instead of a raised platform and then eventually will fade that out.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Your still having to lure him in so I would continue to treat/reward until he "get's it". I noticed you had to side bump him too which indicates he isn't quite sure what you want yet - at least that's my take.

I agree a smaller, rubber or non-slip item would be best. 

I personally like to mark the front first then work on basic position.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Here's a good example:
YouTube - Laos Perch Work.mpg


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Agree with Falon. Since Frag is moving around the perch very nicely now, the next step would be to tighten up YOUR position. Basically for obedience: only front or heel. Either you stay in front of Frag or you stay in heel position. Also, if you are working from the heel position, then I would reward with your left hand (put the clicker in your right hand) and reward straight above his head - to enforce the heads up position. You are basically teaching/asking for attention heeling. The only difference is instead of moving ahead, you guys are moving in circle. So think of it as you are still heeling.

I have never done finding heel on the bucket. That actually sounds pretty difficult! I got Ike to the point where he can turn with me in heel position and front position, both clockwise and counterclockwise and that was pretty much the end of perch training for him. "Finding the left leg" exercise we did on the ground after he was "done" with the perch. 

You guys are doing great. Frag is definitely getting "it"!


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Elisabeth, I have never seen Lynn's video before. That's really good!!!


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I'm in love with Laos so I am always looking at her Youtube videos....lol.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

You are a Laos Stalker!


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I've been stalking a lot of dogs/breeders lately... lol.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba showed me this video on "finding heel" awhile back and I really like it. Note the way Celeste sets it up, the dog still needs to have lots of rear end awareness/pivoting skill. So perch work is a prerequiste for this. Once the dog shows you he knows how to pivot, you can start taking it to the ground.








elisabeth_00117 said:


> I've been stalking a lot of dogs/breeders lately... lol.


Yea, me too. Lately I've been finding myself bookmarking breeders - which is absolutely insane considering that I have a 90lbs puppy that won't even come to me when I recall him.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

In watching your video with Frag.. The only thing I would do differently since your just starting this.. Is slow yourself down (meaning don't walk around so quickly) and do more quarter type (90 or 180 degree) turns.. 

You can also try a step stool w/rubber on top..


----------



## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

This is another thread I'm following with great interest. I decided to try this with Ridley and the first session was spent trying to get him close enough to the perch to touch it. By the end of session one we got both feet onto the perch and after a brief celebration, we called it a day.

During the second session we had to repeat the effort to get him close enough to the perch to touch it but finally got both feet on and I even managed to get him moving onto the perch by himself with a "Perch" command. I made a quick attempt to get movement but backed off after deciding that we'd made enough progress. Hopefully by session 3 we'll manage a bit of movement.

I love watching these training videos but honestly, my experiences are rather ramshackle in comparison . . . maybe it's the handler's fault! Ridley is very suspicious of anything new . . . our current perch is a small galvanized washtub - the size is about right and it doesn't move on the driveway. I have a smaller feed bowl but it doesn't seem to be tall enough to get the perch effect. I think once I get him moving I'll switch down to it.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Your still having to lure him in so I would continue to treat/reward until he "get's it". I noticed you had to side bump him too which indicates he isn't quite sure what you want yet - at least that's my take.
> 
> I agree a smaller, rubber or non-slip item would be best.
> 
> I personally like to mark the front first then work on basic position.


Gotcha, thank you! Makes sense to keep marking for moving until his concept is solid. I'm going to go to the feed store today and look for some sort of rubber tub.



Jason L said:


> Agree with Falon. Since Frag is moving around the perch very nicely now, the next step would be to tighten up YOUR position. Basically for obedience: only front or heel. Either you stay in front of Frag or you stay in heel position. Also, if you are working from the heel position, then I would reward with your left hand (put the clicker in your right hand) and reward straight above his head - to enforce the heads up position. You are basically teaching/asking for attention heeling. The only difference is instead of moving ahead, you guys are moving in circle. So think of it as you are still heeling.
> 
> I have never done finding heel on the bucket. That actually sounds pretty difficult! I got Ike to the point where he can turn with me in heel position and front position, both clockwise and counterclockwise and that was pretty much the end of perch training for him. "Finding the left leg" exercise we did on the ground after he was "done" with the perch.
> 
> You guys are doing great. Frag is definitely getting "it"!


The feeding with the left hand is a good idea- thank you for that. I'll have to practice my right hand clicking skills in private for a while first, but certainly attainable. 

Thank you though!



G-burg said:


> In watching your video with Frag.. The only thing I would do differently since your just starting this.. Is slow yourself down (meaning don't walk around so quickly) and do more quarter type (90 or 180 degree) turns..
> 
> You can also try a step stool w/rubber on top..


Yes, I got the advice to slow down from another board as well and It's probably a good idea. I'll work through the next few sessions on making small moves, making sure he gets it, and I'll either drop the lure or fade it completely before I start making large turns again. 

Step stool is a good idea too!


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I went to Tractor Supply and got a horse feed tub - it was like $4


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

For this work we used a saucer that goes under a plant pot first. It was big enough and not slippery. We moved up to using the pot itself later on after she realized her back end moved independently from the front. It was fun to teach. I used the command "Paws" to make her perch on the pot. We used clicker and lots of rewards.


----------



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Jason L said:


> Samba showed me this video on "finding heel" awhile back and I really like it. Note the way Celeste sets it up, the dog still needs to have lots of rear end awareness/pivoting skill. So perch work is a prerequiste for this. Once the dog shows you he knows how to pivot, you can start taking it to the ground.
> 
> YouTube - Celeste Meade "Pick up" Part I
> 
> ...


LOL Jason!


----------



## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

I bought a rubbermaid step stool to try this but can't figure out how to get Dexter to actually put his front paws on it in the first place. Any hints? Thanks. Liked Frag's video, by the way.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

stand directly in front of him, with the stool in between you, holding a treat in front of you so that he comes forward. I bet he'll take a step up to get the treat.


----------



## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Thank you!


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I used a 6" x 9" paver, from Home Depot. Cost $1. My dog has no trouble keeping her front feet on it and it has a bit of texture so she doesn't slip off. it's small enough that she can't move her front feet around much and stay on, and it's solid and heavy enough that it doesn't move.


----------



## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

Ridley is getting his feet onto the perch quite easily now with a simple "Perch" command. Getting him to move is quite another story . . . we've gotten one or two steps in one direction (counter clockwise I think) and none in the opposite direction. Can someone tell me how to get him moving? Also, should there be a command for this or just use a Fuss command?

I think I looked like a really bad traffic cop last night and Ridley probably felt like a Circus Elephant!

BTW, I've watched all the videos in this thread and I'm missing something to get the movement started. Thanks!


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

smdaigle said:


> Ridley is getting his feet onto the perch quite easily now with a simple "Perch" command. Getting him to move is quite another story . . . we've gotten one or two steps in one direction (counter clockwise I think) and none in the opposite direction. Can someone tell me how to get him moving? Also, should there be a command for this or just use a Fuss command?
> 
> I think I looked like a really bad traffic cop last night and Ridley probably felt like a Circus Elephant!
> 
> BTW, I've watched all the videos in this thread and I'm missing something to get the movement started. Thanks!


I don't know if your dog is familiar with the idea of giving to pressure - but it's something I've been working with on Madix so this method worked fantastic. 

I used dowels:





This is a couple lessons later without the dowels - he caught on right away after he actually started moving - definitely one side was MUCH easier than the other!!





I hope that helps! Otherwise, I just used luring to get him into place once he realized he COULD move.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I also have the issue with one side being easier than the other. 

I also started out using my body as pressure for him to move each way, then started luring in a small circle right above his head on the perch. I bought a rubber feed bowl from the feed store and it's perfect for him size wise and texture wise, but he keeps getting so excited about it for some reason, that he keeps falling off because he's not paying ANY attention to his front feet now. Any advice?


----------



## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I use my body as pressure to get the movement in perch work as well. I shape the initial interaction with the perch though. This might help you get to thinking about his feet a bit more, if you break it down into little steps by rewarding for just putting paws on, then adding the movement back once he's being more thoughtful.

Here's a video of me and Tara doing some perching to show a little of the shaping in the beginning. I never named the perch and she has two behaviors with it - a front foot perch and a back foot perch, which is why she keeps offering me the rear feet on it.


----------



## smdaigle (Mar 14, 2008)

We're making progress! I'm using pressure and trying to keep the treats right overhead. A couple more quick sessions and Ridley ought to be moving his rear feet by himself. Meanwhile, with other efforts I'm getting him into Fuss position from the front position. I'm hoping that we can tighten this up once he learns to move his back legs!


----------



## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> try something like a rubber feed tub from tractor supply. He's slipping off the box, not stepping off of it.


That's what I was thinking too. His toes are spaced apart because of the slipping. Maybe buy an aerobic step for a perch because they are longer.


----------

