# Horrible! My Two Boys are Fighting. Need Help!



## Skeezix

We have three German Shepherd Dogs, one female (Zera, 4 y/o) and two males (Buddy, 5 y/o & Griff, 3 y/o) , all rescues. All are neutered. We adopted Griff in April of ’09 and took Buddy in as a foster dog in June of ’09. Buddy was extremely abused, both physically and mentally, when we got him, but has made fantastic progress. However, because of some issues that might be permanent, and the fact that we fell in love with him, we decided to adopt him also.

The trouble is that during the last 9 months or so, Buddy has gained enough confidence that he has decided to challenge Griff for Beta canine position in our “pack”. Zera is the Alpha canine and the boys never challenge her, but she doesn’t interfere with their disputes. The dogs mind my wife and I quite well and seem to recognize us as the *ALPHA*’s of our “pack”. 

Buddy keeps pestering Griff off and on, and Griff will take it for weeks, but he finally gets a belly full of it and attacks Buddy. When we see Buddy bothering Griff, we tell him NO! and will separate them, sometimes putting Buddy in his crate for a couple of hours or more. We also try to watch for them posturing and cutting their eyes at each other, and verbally correct them. These actions have been mostly successful, and they generally get along OK, however, over the last 8 or 9 months, they have had 4 fights and each one has been worse than the ones preceding it. The fights have started when we were distracted doing something and didn’t notice them posturing or didn’t notice Buddy pestering Griff.

When they start fighting, and we start yelling at them, Buddy will mind and stop and try to get away, but Griff will NOT give up and keeps pressing the attack. The end result being that Buddy ends up taking the brunt of the injuries, which have been worse with each successive fight. The only way we’ve been able to stop the fights is for me to grab Griff and pull him away from Buddy, but this has been difficult sometimes because he has latched onto Buddy and won’t let go. Truth be told, I believe that if we didn’t intervene, Buddy would win the fight (but at great cost to both dogs). However when we start to break up the fight, Buddy minds us and stops, then Griff uses that opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy.

There has GOT to be some way to train these two male dogs to get along and stop being aggressive to each other. The heartbreak of seeing these normally wonderful dogs injuring each other is more than we can stand. And these 4 fights have already cost us hundreds of dollars in vet bills. What do you suggest?


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## AgileGSD

First off you are assuming there is far more of a strict hierarchy with dogs than what is actually likely to exist. Same sex aggression between dogs is not really about challenging for a certain "position". 

Same sex aggression (also called Interdog aggression) can be a problem in GSDs. I have known dogs (both males and females) who were same sex aggressive, had some sex aggressive parents, grandparents and other relatives. These dogs were raised by different people, in different environments and with differing training views. This, along with the fact that some breeds are much more or much less at risk for SSA indicates that this problem has strong genetic predisposition.

My own experience with same sex aggression is with two female GSDs. One is truly same sex aggressive and she can't be with any of our other adult females. The other gets along with our other girls for the most part but will fight with the SSA GSD girl in an instant. They would fight to the point of injuring each other and were extremely hard to break up once they started. I had the SSA girl from puppyhood but brought the second same age GSD in when they were both about a 14-15 months. The loved each other for the first year or so - always played together, slept together, really did everything together. Once the fights started though, they reached a point were they could not safely be kept together any more. They are both 12 1/2 years old now and haven't been out together for almost 10 years. They live in separate parts of the house and have separate outside time. 

Unfortunately, you are not correct in your idea that there absolutely HAS to be a way to get these dogs to get along. At the very least, you will never be able to to go back to how things where before the fighting started. Dogs who have repeated history of fighting result in injuries serious enough to require vet care are unlikely to every be totally trustworthy with each other again. It is unfair to the dogs to repeatedly put them in situations where they will be injured. Even if you can force them to get along some of the time, there is a great deal of stress caused by these dogs having to be together after having a history of violent fights. It is also dangerous for you and your wife to be put in a situation of breaking up two large fighting dogs. Very often the only options to resolve SSA is to either place one of the dogs or keep both dogs separated at all times: Pit Bull Rescue Central

A two part article about Interdog Aggression article by a respected behaviorist:

Interdog aggression can strike with deadly consequences - DVM
Interdog aggression: What are the warning signs? - DVM


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## clearcreekranch

I don't know if this will work, but have you tried walking them on leashes together. And I don't mean short walks....very, very long walks at a brisk pace? I agree that there may not be an easy solution, but you have to keep trying. I vote for the separation when you can't keep your attention on them. And am I clear that this fighting is not over a bone or toy or favorite spot? And please be careful, people have been bitten horribly by there own dogs when they are in that state of aggression. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing, though. It has got to be hard to see 2 animals that you love going at each other.


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## ilivenanigloo

Interesting...my GSD and my mom's cocker schnoodle used to squabble. I think if my mom and I could have agreed on allowing Lupa, who was thrice the size of Dixie, to be dominant it might have resolved. Unfortunately, my mom thought the cocker jealousy thing wasn't bad/was understandable and I just wanted to glorify my own dog or something. They never fought as bad as what you described, but the small dog bit through my thumbnail when I broke up a bad fight (Lupa backed off when I told her to). 

Anyway, could I have done so, I would have helped Lupa assert her position by feeding her first (separately if food aggression became an issue), letting her out the door first, petting her first and any other small way that would give her the advantage. I guess the thing to do would be observe what causes problems and address that. Is there confusion/lack of consistency in how each is treated? 

I hope this helps or someone will give me feedback, as I'd like an answer to this as well. I know this may not be helpful advice since I've not tried it myself.


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## LaRen616

clearcreekranch said:


> *I don't know if this will work, but have you tried walking them on leashes together. And I don't mean short walks....very, very long walks at a brisk pace?* I agree that there may not be an easy solution, but you have to keep trying. I vote for the separation when you can't keep your attention on them. And am I clear that this fighting is not over a bone or toy or favorite spot?


 
I agree.

They do say that walking dogs together can help with bonding.


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## AgileGSD

LaRen616 said:


> I agree.
> 
> They do say that walking dogs together can help with bonding.


 These dogs are not new to each other, they have lived together for a year and they are now seriously fighting. Walking dogs together can help two new dogs get acquainted better but the issue with these dogs is obviously not on of needing to get to know each other better.


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## ken k

speaking from experience, *DO NOT* put your hands in there to break them up, you will have to buy one of the small hand held boat air horns, when they start fight get in close and let her rip, and you may have to keep the 2 separate, i have to females that would like to kill each other, its a little extra work but much safer for me and them


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## Elaine

There is no way you can make these dogs get along. You can make them behave while you are standing right there watching, but you can't when you're not. The only thing you can do is keep them separate any time you can't directly supervise them.


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## GROVEBEAUTY

I have three males and we have this type of problem, but only when the female(s) are in heat. I'm not sure you will ever get them to get along. Long walks to remove excess energy may help. I'm not sure it will cure it. I had to keep two females apart for several years for this same reason, they would try to kill each other. The two females were littermates and got along until about two years old.


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## dgon27

Skeezix said:


> The only way we’ve been able to stop the fights is for me to grab Griff and pull him away from Buddy, but this has been difficult sometimes because he has latched onto Buddy and won’t let go. Truth be told, I believe that if we didn’t intervene, Buddy would win the fight (but at great cost to both dogs). However when we start to break up the fight, Buddy minds us and stops, then Griff uses that opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy.


Hi Skeezix. I am no expert, as you can see by some of my posts, but as far as the breaking up a fight I have a bit of experience. I used to have 2 female American Bulldogs who would do the same thing. You stated that when you break up the fight, Griff takes the opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy. If this happens again, grab Griff by his hind legs and lift him up. This should make him feel uncomfortable and make him stop. It worked for me.


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## Anja1Blue

You have received some honest advice in the above posts. There is really no way to get dogs to get along once one, or both, have decided to up the ante. Just because they have been fine up until this point is not a guarantee that you can return them to their former state. (As an example, people can start off liking one another, and yet some time later you hear they are going through a nasty divorce. Times and circumstances and emotions change, and dogs are sometimes no different.) Especially if they are same sex GSD's. You can try walking them together, but that doesn't really address the issue of what they will do to each other when you aren't around to supervise. I think you have three choices - keep them separate, rehome one of them, or contact a behavioral specialist to see if you can at least bring the level of aggression down. Be prepared however that they will most likely never be entirely trustworthy around one another again.
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge


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## Skeezix

I truly appreciate the honest advice. I've learned with previous dogs that they will sometimes hold a "grudge" against a certain dog, even though they got along great with most others. We already had been keeping them separated when we weren't there to supervise them, but even when we _are_ supervising them, they take advantage of any time that we let down our guard and start fighting. They are both equally guilty. 

We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us. He is such a sweet and fun dog: a big ol' goofy goober, except when he's around Buddy. And Buddy just has too many remaining emotional issues from his previous abuse to safely rehome him, plus he's completely stolen my wife's heart. In addition, Buddy is one of those dogs that truly has a "spirit" or "soul", and it's a sweet, loving one (except towards Griff). You can see it in his eyes and feel it when you're around him. 

We've talked about seeing an animal behavioral specialist and will certainly pursue that option. If we go that route, we'll deal with Buddy's issues first, because he's usually the first instigator of the aggression. The trouble is that we are out in the middle of nowhere, and it's 3 1/2 hours to the nearest specialist. But we will do it anyway. These dogs are worth it.

I'd still like to hear anyone else's ideas too!


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## gsdraven

Skeezix said:


> We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us.


What about how hard it is on him to be constantly on edge and fearing being attacked in his own home?


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## Stosh

The trainer we had for our CGC class has been a trainer for 25+ yrs, has trained several service dogs, etc...I'm saying she has lots of experience. She rescued a gsd female, had her for 4 yrs in the house with her male and female Goldens. One night the gsd attacked the male Golden, completely unprovoked and practically ripped his face off. SHe and her husband couldn't separate them before there was serious damage to both dogs. The trainer said there had been incidents in the past, she didn't completely trust the gsd and had considered rehoming her but as a trainer she felt she could handle the situation. She ended up having to put the gsd down. My point, is that the trainer really knew better and wished now she had placed the gsd in a different home as an only dog. I agree with GSDRaven, that this dog would have had much less stress than living with that much stress every day


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## Anja1Blue

gsdraven said:


> What about how hard it is on him to be constantly on edge and fearing being attacked in his own home?


Agreed - we tend to always look at a situation from our point of view, but in actual fact we should be looking at it from the dog's. I don't think you have many options, and I don't think there are many more ideas out there. I believe you are looking for someone to say "here's the magic fix - do this and they will be best buddies again." (Which is natural, we'd all like that...) Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong, but I don't believe that is being realistic. Good luck with the trainer though and let us know how things turn out!
________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## AgileGSD

Skeezix said:


> We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us. He is such a sweet and fun dog: a big ol' goofy goober, except when he's around Buddy. And Buddy just has too many remaining emotional issues from his previous abuse to safely rehome him, plus he's completely stolen my wife's heart. In addition, Buddy is one of those dogs that truly has a "spirit" or "soul", and it's a sweet, loving one (except towards Griff). You can see it in his eyes and feel it when you're around him.
> 
> We've talked about seeing an animal behavioral specialist and will certainly pursue that option. If we go that route, we'll deal with Buddy's issues first, because he's usually the first instigator of the aggression. The trouble is that we are out in the middle of nowhere, and it's 3 1/2 hours to the nearest specialist. But we will do it anyway. These dogs are worth it.


 Be very cautious of any trainer who tells you this problem can be "cured". The truth is that there are never any guarantees with aggression cases - it depends on the individual dog, owner and situation. It is pretty rare for a case like this to be totally cured - as in the dogs return to getting along fine without strict management. If you decide to keep both dogs and attempt to get them to tolerate each other, understand that in ally likelihood things will never be easy with them again. And mismanagement on your part may result in seriously injured dogs (or humans). If you can't bear to part with either of them your only option may be to crate and rotate, which I posted an article about in my first reply.


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## GSD_man

I am a real strong believer that 90% of all aggression cases in ANY pack can be cured using a combination of strong pack leadership, exercise, NILIF, obedience training and corrections when applicable. Of course the desired behavior MUST be positively reinforced. 

I do agree that there can be exceptions to the norm involving medical cases, early age socialization problems etc. and do find that aggression issues among rescues tend to be more challenging compared to aggression issues with a dog who you raised since he/she was a 8 week old puppy. 

Given exact advice over the net, without actually being there and studying pack member behavior is another challenge. I do believe that you are doing the right thing by seeking out a professional service provider in your area. 

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## AgileGSD

Miraculix said:


> I am a real strong believer that 90% of all aggression cases in ANY pack can be cured using a combination of strong pack leadership, exercise, NILIF, obedience training and corrections when applicable. Of course the desired behavior MUST be positively reinforced.


 How many cases of serious same sex aggression do you have personal experience with?


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## GSD_man

lol

let's rather not hijack the OPs threat and take this into the wrong direction


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## Skeezix

We _have_ practiced strong pack leadership. We've had as many as five rescues at one time and never a problem like this. We've used NILIF for weeks on end with Buddy, to no avail. He would come right back trying to start a fight with Griff, even with immediate and consistent corrections. We even had him on tranquilizers for a short while. We've had extensive medical testing and analysis performed on him. He's had obedience training and proved to be exceptionally smart. The fastest learner I've ever dealt with. We've played with him and walked him until he was ready to drop, but still the aggression continued.

We sought out behaviorists, chased and read every bit of info that we could find, talked to trainers. With his bite history (bitten at least three different people at different times), adoption agencies won't touch him because of liability issues. We've literally spent thousands of dollars and untold hours on this dog. But most importantly, we took Buddy into our hearts. We loved him dearly. He truly was our Buddy. We poured 15 months of our hearts and souls into Buddy. But he was like an autistic child that just couldn't control certain aspects of his behavior, but with the capability to inflict much more grievous damage than a child. He is one of the 10%, or whatever percentage, that just can not be reached and cured.

Because of all of this, we reached the horrible decision that the best thing to do was to put him to sleep. Yesterday morning we took him for a walk in one of his favorite places, let him piddle and pot at his own pace. Then we took him to the vet. He left this life cradled in our arms, his beautiful fur sprinkled with our tears. 

Our souls are grieving. There is a huge hole in our hearts. We've cried enough tears to float a boat. We pray for Buddy that he can be healed, freed from fear and mental issues, can be truly and completely happy, and that he will be waiting for us when we get to the next life.


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## Castlemaid

Skeezix, I'm very sorry. The dogs that require the most effort take such a big chunk of our hearts with them.  I know you did everything you could for Buddy, and finally gave him the peace he has never known before.

Take care.:rip:


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## codmaster

Da#@, that must be extremely difficult! At least he is now free from whatever demons were running his life! My deepest sympathy!!!!!!!!


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## vat

Oh I am so very sorry, what a hard choice you had to make. At least you gave him love and kindness and he left this life with the two of you by his side.

RIP sweet boy, may you only know happiness and joy from now on.


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## Baersmama

What a terrible decision to have to make. I agree with the previous post.... he is free from whatever was causing him so much pain in life. Rest easy, Buddy.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.


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## AgileGSD

Very sorry to hear about Buddy


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## Dainerra

I am so sorry. We went through the same decision with Freya this summer. It can be so hard, and while it doesn't get easier, you will make peace with your decision.


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## Skeezix

We sincerely thank you ALL for your understanding and sympathy. Our home seems so strangely quiet now. We hadn't realized what a huge upheaval Buddy kept going all the time. But still, we miss him badly. We continue to pray for him, that he'll find peace, joy, and happiness in his new life.


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