# WGSL vs. Working Lines Puppy If Both Have SCH3 Parents?



## Hatch (Jul 16, 2015)

So, I am still trying to decide between a WGSL or WL Puppy. Keep going back and forth. I have narrowed my search down to two breeders.

Generally speaking, if all four puppy parents (of WGSL and WL breeders) have achieved SCH3, what general differences might I expect in health, temperament, or drive in the their respective litters?

In cases like this, with all four parents being SCH3, are there really no differences in their litters?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It depends on the dogs. I ended up with a WL after looking for a SL, with a lower drive than the SL dogs I was exploring. I was told by a SL breeder that her dogs were too active for me, which made me laugh but I believed her. Our WL breeder has both and said for what I wanted, her WL dogs from a certain litter were much milder than the SL dogs and more what we wanted. I believed her and I still do. He is active but not overly and once we have exercised twice a day spends a lot of time sleeping and very calm. All the litters I looked at have Sch3 in their lines, and some have a lot more.


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## Hatch (Jul 16, 2015)

*Thank you for sharing your experience*

I sometimes wonder if the differences between WL and SL are just overblown by expectations and subjectivity. To earn a SCH3, you would think the dogs, SL or WL, share more things in common than they differ...



LuvShepherds said:


> It depends on the dogs. I ended up with a WL after looking for a SL, with a lower drive than the SL dogs I was exploring. I was told by a SL breeder that her dogs were too active for me, which made me laugh but I believed her. Our WL breeder has both and said for what I wanted, her WL dogs from a certain litter were much milder than the SL dogs and more what we wanted. I believed her and I still do. He is active but not overly and once we have exercised twice a day spends a lot of time sleeping and very calm. All the litters I looked at have Sch3 in their lines, and some have a lot more.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There are differences in temperament and type of drive, but it depends on the pedigree and what they get from their ancestors. I've seen lines that are mixed way back and you don't know what genetics come through from which lines. You can earn a Sch3 with other breeds, it's not just WL GSDs. I think some of it is expectation, and some is personality, but my dog comes from Czech German lines, yet is not extremely drivey. I would never have bought a WL had I listened to most of the warnings here. I fell in love with the parents, and once I met the puppies, I had to have one from that litter. Litters which are bred for Sch tend to have strong nerve, but again not always. That's why you need to interview breeders and meet the parents. Also talk to people who have dogs from the same kennel.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure if you've seen this link yet.
German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide

It's going to come down to the dogs the breeder is producing. There are a few forum members who may know the lines you are looking at and possibly give you some insight into their pedigree.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Hatch said:


> So, I am still trying to decide between a WGSL or WL Puppy. Keep going back and forth. I have narrowed my search down to two breeders.
> 
> Generally speaking, if all four puppy parents (of WGSL and WL breeders) have achieved SCH3, what general differences might I expect in health, temperament, or drive in the their respective litters?
> 
> In cases like this, with all four parents being SCH3, are there really no differences in their litters?


who put the titles on the dogs? If it was the breeder, I would look further into the program and what they are producing. If the dogs were purchased with titles, well, that doesn't mean so much to me. You only know the strengths and weaknesses thru training and proofing the training by titling. Breeding decisions then are the next step. Does the breeder understand lines and what the dogs behind the pedigree have produced? 
There is much more than titles and scores to look at when it comes to making breeding decisions(or buying a puppy)


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Hatch said:


> I sometimes wonder if the differences between WL and SL are just overblown by expectations and subjectivity. To earn a SCH3, you would think the dogs, SL or WL, share more things in common than they differ...



This couldn't be any further from the truth. I strongly recommend going out to some IPO clubs and see for yourself some of the differences in the dogs. Many of the dogs you will see have or will have an IPO3 at some point. Pay attention to how vastly different the dogs can be.


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## Hatch (Jul 16, 2015)

Yes, both breeders title their own dogs and are highly respected on this forum. It seems as though the consensus on many sites is that WGSL are bred first for looks, while WL have historically been bred for working ability and temperament. 

I suppose I should focus more on how many generations of titles there are...not just the titles of the sires and dams. I imagine that getting a pup who is a genetic outlier would be reduced with this approach. 



onyx'girl said:


> who put the titles on the dogs? If it was the breeder, I would look further into the program and what they are producing. If the dogs were purchased with titles, well, that doesn't mean so much to me. You only know the strengths and weaknesses thru training and proofing the training by titling. Breeding decisions then are the next step. Does the breeder understand lines and what the dogs behind the pedigree have produced?
> There is much more than titles and scores to look at when it comes to making breeding decisions(or buying a puppy)


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## Hatch (Jul 16, 2015)

So, are you suggesting that, generally speaking, you can tell the difference in an IPO3 WL GSD versus an IPO3 WGSL GSD (without focusing on colors, obviously)? If so, generally speaking, which types of differences do you typically notice?



mycobraracr said:


> This couldn't be any further from the truth. I strongly recommend going out to some IPO clubs and see for yourself some of the differences in the dogs. Many of the dogs you will see have or will have an IPO3 at some point. Pay attention to how vastly different the dogs can be.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it is also important in what you intend to do with the puppy. Whether or not you are interested in support from the breeder in those endeavors. What you expect the dog to be when not on the field, training. How much experience you have with training dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

on or off the field, the dog should be social, stable and balanced in drives. Health and longevity in the lines is important. Titles are great, but they are just part of what a breeders program involves. agree with mycobraracr....get out and look at the dogs in training if you can. And observe off the field as much as on. 
Personally I like a higher threshold dog that isn't spinning in a crate or banging around barking constantly when people and their dogs are within eyesight.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Hatch said:


> So, are you suggesting that, generally speaking, you can tell the difference in an IPO3 WL GSD versus an IPO3 WGSL GSD (without focusing on colors, obviously)? If so, generally speaking, which types of differences do you typically notice?



Speaking in generalities, yes. Every dog is an individual, and some don't fit the typical mold that I see. Based off my experience and my now bias towards WL's, SL's in general have less drive, specifically prey. Enough to complete the task? In some cases. The ones that I see that do have the drive to make it through are generally hectic and not clear headed making them in many cases more of a challenge to work. I have noticed a lack of work ethic in the SL's. When they feel like working they do, but they have plenty of "off" days. In my experience, the SL's take longer to mature and come out better in defense.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

based on my experience working both,
there is good and bad in both. the biggest difference i think is the drives. Showlines tend to be prey driven and have lots and lots of drive. you can imagine breeders need their dogs to run multiple laps pulling and remain excited. also they must be able to achieve at least sch1.

Working line dogs tend to rely a little less on energy and drive, they have more defense and fight in them.

i know with my boy it was very hard to get him to stop thinking of the helper as a toy and start thinking of him as a threat. he would bite like **** and put on a great show but he was happy as harry doing so. 
Most good working lines didnt take as long to get into a fighting mode where they showed a little more aggression. 

with regards to obedience and tracking i honestly dont see a huge difference unless you are talking very high competition level.


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## Hatch (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you both for getting back to me with your experiences and observations. They were very informative.



mycobraracr said:


> Speaking in generalities, yes. Every dog is an individual, and some don't fit the typical mold that I see. Based off my experience and my now bias towards WL's, SL's in general have less drive, specifically prey. Enough to complete the task? In some cases. The ones that I see that do have the drive to make it through are generally hectic and not clear headed making them in many cases more of a challenge to work. I have noticed a lack of work ethic in the SL's. When they feel like working they do, but they have plenty of "off" days. In my experience, the SL's take longer to mature and come out better in defense.





d4mmo said:


> based on my experience working both,
> there is good and bad in both. the biggest difference i think is the drives. Showlines tend to be prey driven and have lots and lots of drive. you can imagine breeders need their dogs to run multiple laps pulling and remain excited. also they must be able to achieve at least sch1.
> 
> Working line dogs tend to rely a little less on energy and drive, they have more defense and fight in them.
> ...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think it depends entirely on what you're looking to do. If you're looking to do well in trial at anything above club level, I would look at the typical successful ratio of WL to SL entries..

I think some show lines have decent prey, and I would never rush to the generality of saying that all WL dogs have more "aggression" or "defense". Most successful WL dogs have an absolute abundance of prey drive..

There are SL dogs that *can* and do her IPO3, but they almost always have limitations when put up next to a WL dog. I'm sure there are some exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, it's just not the case. Look at the dogs entering and competing well at regional and national level and count the number of each..

And no, there is really minimal difference in living with a dog of one line vs the other.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I think it is most important for you to go see the dogs in person. That will help you more than internet research. What are your goals with your dog? Are you doing sport? 

I have a 2 year old WGSL that I work in IPO. He has his BH and is getting ready for his 1. He is my first GSD and is a lot of fun to train. He is a natural tracker and is very biddable in obedience. He loves protection and does well, but he is not the most powerful dog on the field. He is a great dog but would not do well in upper level competition. My goal is to get him to IPO3 at the club level, maybe regionals if my trial nerves can handle it.

I am bringing home a working line puppy next week that I will also be training in IPO. Her father is a very powerful IPO3 male that has trialed successfully at the national and international level. I am very excited about this puppy and think the only thing holding her back will be me. 

All that said you have to look at the individual dogs and your individual goals. You will find nice dogs in both lines and both can make great pets, but if you want an IPO dog specifically, I would look more at working lines.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

If I may offer some un-biased advice about buying a puppy of any breed. I'm new to GSD'S. My first is just now 10 weeks old. That being said I'm far from new to dealing with breeders and picking out puppies. I'm a gundog trainer of retrievers and flushers and in all the breeds I've dealt with one thing is the same. 
First ask yourself what your goal is for your pup and spend as much as you can on PROVEN lines to include proper health certs. 
If your wanting to compete in a trial/test level find parents with stacked 5 generation or better with zero voids then go one step further, buy proven litters, not first time this combo should make litters, by that I mean same combo of sire and dame already have pups making waves in the games you wish to play. 
Now there are other questions to ask yourself that are more difficult because of the honesty required to answer yourself. 
Am I ready for a highly bred worker?
Am I able to fulfill the promise made with such a dog in time and training?

No matter the breed highly proven bred working dogs can be a challenge for some. I can't tell you how many calls I get because someone wanted the best and dropped 5 to 10 grand on a proven field trial Labrador and it didn't meet their expectations of the average pet Lab. Just food for thought.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In other words, if the puppy buyer has serious goals of titling in IPO and ambitions to go beyond club level find a *good* WL breeder. 

Another problem you run into in certain areas is trainers/helpers who don't have as much experience with SLs too. I think Alexis can agree on this point.

So yeah, if IPO is your main goal WL is probably the way to go.

If the puppy buyer wants to do SV conformation and IPO then a SL is probably the better way to go.

On the point about "living with" WLs. WLs generally are harder to live with for people who don't want to train. As one person said here recently 'they may have an off switch but sometimes it's hard to find'. I know with my training skills  it probably would be harder for me. 

SLs tend to be easier to live with for a lot of people who may want to do some IPO at a club level or other activity and/or showing.

So Hatch, yes, generally speaking there are differences. 

I have two WGSLs now. I had started my female in IPO training and she was more defense (per helper/trainers who actually worked her).

My current boy has more prey and my trainer is happy with his drives and bite. 

See I don't have the time or money to go to higher levels (let alone the skills..ugh) BUT he's a great dog to learn with and live with.

Go see the dogs, listen to what the breeders you are interested say and most importantly, go to some IPO clubs watch the dogs and hang out and listen to the banter, listen.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Now that's some excellent unbiased advice. Well stated!!

:thumbup:





Clay Hill said:


> If I may offer some un-biased advice about buying a puppy of any breed. I'm new to GSD'S. My first is just now 10 weeks old. That being said I'm far from new to dealing with breeders and picking out puppies. I'm a gundog trainer of retrievers and flushers and in all the breeds I've dealt with one thing is the same.
> First ask yourself what your goal is for your pup and spend as much as you can on PROVEN lines to include proper health certs.
> If your wanting to compete in a trial/test level find parents with stacked 5 generation or better with zero voids then go one step further, buy proven litters, not first time this combo should make litters, by that I mean same combo of sire and dame already have pups making waves in the games you wish to play.
> Now there are other questions to ask yourself that are more difficult because of the honesty required to answer yourself.
> ...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

IN GENERAL - If you get one from a good breeder - even a SL - you should be able to do club stuff with either - the degree of difficulty in various aspects will vary GREATLY. As will the trainability and desire of the dog to work with you 

Think of it like buying a car - a Mustang vs a Cadillac.....you can go grocery shopping in either.....the Caddy is going to be much easier to take Grandma to church in than the mustang - but you aren't taking the Caddy to the dragstrip on Sunday afternoons!

You want to play a little - get the showline, you want to play ALOT and have more fun than frustration - get the working line.


Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Fun and frustration both being relative.

I'm still waiting for a WL breeder whose dogs not only are the perfect pet/IPO/protection/service/herding dog but also get up and make my coffee for me and then pick up and make the bed too. 

Just sayin'.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Fun and frustration both being relative.
> 
> I'm still waiting for a WL breeder whose dogs not only are the perfect pet/IPO/protection/service/herding dog but also* get up and make my coffee for me and then pick up and make the bed too.*
> 
> Just sayin'.


Um, that is what a wife is for. So thinks my husband...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! Sounds like he needs some training.  




onyx'girl said:


> Um, that is what a wife is for. So thinks my husband...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

As an example, I have a WL puppy, five months old. I work with him 30-60 minutes daily in just obedience. I do something different each day because I find the skill takes better if I rest what I'm teaching him for three days between sessions. I try to take him somewhere every day, either to a place where dogs are allowed or on a walk in our neighborhood where he can face a variety of stimuli. He runs or plays with my older dog at least 30 minutes in the morning and afternoon. He is medium drive and medium to high energy. I'm still having some behavior problems, but I doubled down after an incident this week and we are working even more on that because I refuse to allow him to become an out of control dog.

In contrast we had a WGSL from a mom who did only obedience and a dad that was Sch3 from Vom Kirschental (the dad, not my puppy) which was known for every high energy dogs. She had an extraordinarily high prey drive and should have done more than we did with her, but I didn't have the time. She needed about twice as much daily exercise as my current puppy. So lines themselves don't tell the whole story. You need to meet the parents and talk to the breeder. If you can see other dogs from that line at shows or working, you will also get an idea. If the parents have been bred before, talk to people with dogs from those same parents if you can.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm still waiting for a WL breeder whose dogs not only are the perfect pet/IPO/protection/service/herding dog but also get up and make my coffee for me and then pick up and make the bed too.
> 
> .


my hubby, too. Although I am teaching my two year old how to bring my laundry if I drop it (by accident on purpose) and bring me laundry from the basket. He finds my cup of coffee when my husband hides it from me. He's not so good at making the bed yet but really good at muddying it up.

He's WGSL and has his BH and we are working towards his IPO1. Many of the males in his line have IPO/Sch3. Many of the females have 1s and 2s. I suspect they stopped there to start breeding.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Generally speaking, if all four puppy parents (of WGSL and WL breeders) *have achieved SCH3, what general differences might I expect in health, temperament, or drive in the their respective litters?*
> 
> In cases like this, with all four parents being SCH3, are there really no differences in their litters?


Best way to tell, is to see it for yourself! Go out to many places and watch them work. See how well the interact with there handlers, how much help is the handler and or helper having to give the dogs in the work.. Watch the dogs, their attitude, drive, desire, willingness, etc...

To "me" there is a huge difference between the two..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The genetics of the two dogs are vastly different, so it might be logical that many traits are vastly different.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My WGSL boy has way more prey drive than my WGWL girl does, but I'd totally agree with Jeremy on the work ethic difference. 

Even at nearly 10-1/2 years old, Keef's overall energy is higher than Halo's, but when she turns it on, there's no comparison. As I like to say, she works hard, plays hard, and then sleeps hard. She'll go and go and go, and then crash like she's unconscious, lol. She is determined and opinionated, annoying and exasperating, completely incorrigible, and LOADS of fun! :laugh:

She tends to be more chill around the house than Keefer, and more independent. She's nearly as cuddly and affectionate as he is, but doesn't need to be on top of us all the time. Keef my shadow. :wub:

Keefer and Halo are actually more alike than Keefer and his half sister Dena. She was a total tennis ball maniac, but lower drive in general, and super easy from the very beginning. As a puppy, she wasn't destructive at all. Keef wasn't much of a chewer either, but we're still working on Halo. At 7 years old! :help: :rofl:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GatorDog said:


> And no, there is really minimal difference in living with a dog of one line vs the other.


I would agree with this. We've had two American lines, two West German showlines, and now a WGWL dog. Halo was much more challenging as a puppy, but I expected that, so I had her in training classes pretty much constantly from 13 weeks old until she was over a year old. I spent a LOT of time and effort training her, but now I get compliments on her behavior all the time. I couldn't have skated by doing the bare minimum with this dog, she would have taken over the house. Total world domination! 

But I have to say, she's matured into a fantastic dog, who still makes us laugh every day. Love her to bits. :wub:


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## dz0qp5 (Oct 12, 2004)

I have only had ASL and WGSL. Bit with those, there were more similarities than differences. Both lines were extremely intelligent. The ASL seemed to be a little softer dog. Less biting and not as mouthy as pups, also not nearly as energetic as my WGSL. My WGSL seemed to be more stable dogs, with a more consistent and stable temperament. But I am not sure if that is because of the lines or the fact that my ASL were females and my WGSL were males. I was happy with both lines, ultimately I think it comes down to finding a good breeder.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends on the breeder, the breeding and the dog. There are very few show line breeders that train, handle and actually compete in IPO with their own dogs. Look for the ones that do the full circle, not partial with explanations...

Another one that I recommend is Randy Tyson in California.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Hatch said:


> So, are you suggesting that, generally speaking, you can tell the difference in an IPO3 WL GSD versus an IPO3 WGSL GSD (without focusing on colors, obviously)? If so, generally speaking, which types of differences do you typically notice?


It is easy to PASS IPO3 but it is difficult to SCORE in it. Go and take a look at trials, you would see working lines score better than showlines.

Anyway, IPO titling on showline dogs is always sketchy. In my opinion, showline SCHH titles are almost exclusively "bought". In Germany, need to title them to SCHH1 in order for them to breed legally or the SV won't allow you to register and litters. In addition, most breeders in Germany are also judges so if you're a breeder its pretty easy to call up your fellow judge and get them to title your dog. And they are really lenient in scoring showline dogs.

Most showline dogs I've seen don't have the nerves, temperament and drive to excel in schutzhund. I've seen many showline dogs release their grip and run when the handler stresses them a little, or they show little enthusiasm or interest in obedience.

Not bashing showlines but the converse is true for working lines and show too. Difference is you don't need a show title to be breed worthy, just a simple breed survey, thats why no working dogs enter shows. If there is a dog that does well in both show and sport from either line, I would say that dog has hit the genetic lottery and these dogs are few and far between.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually in order to be breed surveyed the working lines DO have to show at least once in a conformation show.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Pardon my gap in knowledge then. Where I live, I guess they must have combined the Sieger and breed survey into one event. I'm pretty sure I "showed" my dog once and I was given the survey report.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

In Germany and in the USA we also have club level and regional level shows with breed surveys. Our working dogs are not required to go to the Sieger show unless people so desire.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> As an example, I have a WL puppy, five months old. I work with him 30-60 minutes daily in just obedience. I do something different each day because I find the skill takes better if I rest what I'm teaching him for three days between sessions. I try to take him somewhere every day, either to a place where dogs are allowed or on a walk in our neighborhood where he can face a variety of stimuli. He runs or plays with my older dog at least 30 minutes in the morning and afternoon. He is medium drive and medium to high energy. I'm still having some behavior problems, but I doubled down after an incident this week and we are working even more on that because I refuse to allow him to become an out of control dog.
> 
> In contrast we had a WGSL from a mom who did only obedience and a dad that was Sch3 from *Vom Kirschental *(the dad, not my puppy) which was known for every high energy dogs. She had an extraordinarily high prey drive and should have done more than we did with her, but I didn't have the time. She needed about twice as much daily exercise as my current puppy. So lines themselves don't tell the whole story. You need to meet the parents and talk to the breeder. If you can see other dogs from that line at shows or working, you will also get an idea. If the parents have been bred before, talk to people with dogs from those same parents if you can.


My GSD is all Kirschental at the bottom of the pedigree. Simon has high prey drive and needs a lot of exercise. I mean like 2 hours per day of him in the flying trot or all out running. Sometimes I am out at 11:00 at night throwing the ball in my lighted backyard . . .


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

My take on it-----ask the breeder how he interprets the Standard. Different breeders will naturally place an emphasis on certain traits within the Standard.
Depending on what you're looking for & what he/she breeds should help you decide. I knew one breeder who told me "I don't care if my dogs have two heads , so long as they both bite!"---needless to say his pups DID bitework but were physical wrecks. So be careful what you ask for----you may get it (& at a terrible price)


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