# "Honoring animals as heroes diminishes human beings"



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

An opinion piece from the Washington Times I came across today -
ORSI: Going to the dogs? - Washington Times

The author proposes that police dogs should not be honored as heroes or be honored with a service and a funeral because they are "simply trained animals" who don't have the reasoning or free will to choose to perform a heroic act, and that to honor them diminishes the service of human officers.

Opinions?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think it's not the weirdest idea that the author has. Such as, early marriage is best, 18 to 25 - "there is no doubt in my mind that late marriage has wreaked havoc on people's souls" :thinking: and: "Parents should let them see early marriage as good and desirable and not warehouse them at home or in college, which does no one any good in the long run." Yep, that pesky college: no good. :nono:

Why should we not wait until we are more mature and established before marrying? Because "Like anything else, we learn best by doing and any professional will tell you that to be good at anything you must begin when you are young". Plus, of course it squanders your ability to be fruitful and multiply, at least if you wait until marriage to procreate.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The author considers it an "affront to humanity" that a K9 officer gets a full funeral and a "tragedy" that a thug who was trying to kill police officers was also killed? Give me a break.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Several years ago, in our town, a young man who went to school with my little sister and was good friends with my brother's step son, well I guess he dropped some bad acid -- too much rat poison, and became Schizophrenic. Well one day, he decided to kill himself, walked outside with a gun and shot the owner of a fast food joint, Mr. Olson, who was going for his morning walk.

The police came and Levi was shooting at them. They sent Cero after him, and he shot and killed the dog, a nice black and tan GSD, well known in the community.

The shot and killed him then. 

I was glad that they killed him, kind of. I mean, he would have probably been on trial with the death penalty involved because he killed someone and killed the dog. Killing the dog wouldn't do it, but I think that maybe it would have been enough to make it capital murder in Ohio. No one wants to see a police dog die, except career criminals, but no one wants big publicity about the dog killing murderer getting death either. 

I think the whole thing was tragic. I am sorry about the dog. But I think that the biggest tragedy was to the family of Mr. Oleson. 

The dog was raised and trained for police work and handled by someone who knew all along that the dog might take a bullet for him someday. It does not make it any less bad, but police dog handlers are employed to risk their dogs' lives any day. 

Mr. Oleson was just going for a walk. 

The funeral for the dog was huge, parades with law enforcement from states away. A big memorial to the dog is in the center of town next to the courthouse.  A picture of the dog is in the post office. The tribute to the dog is huge. No one even knows when or where Mr. Oleson was laid to rest. 

The dog was ours though. He visited the schools and was used for demos. People would see the dog and the police officer. People liked the dog. People donated for the k9 program. There is ownership in that. And maybe that dog DID take a bullet that would have gone into a human officer. And maybe the dog's life was thrown away. But if Levi was my son, I think that I would rather they try to bring him down alive by sending in the dog, than just shooting him. 

Do the dogs know that they are participating in something that might kill them? No. I do not know that they have a concept for death. Are they highly trained? Yes. Does it really matter if a dog is purchased and trained to do a job? Does it matter that they do not realise that they may die doing what they are supposed to? 

I don't think that it matters that dogs do not understand everything about what they are doing, and whether it is training or heroics. I think in some ways it helps the officers/dog handlers to see their dogs honored. And it also helps the community. If any program really needs community support, it is the K9 program. I think that honoring dogs that die while performing their job, helps communities to understand how important these programs are.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

I remember when _The Washington Times_ was a respectable publication.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I disagree with the author in that article. There are just some dogs who will not do what those K9s do.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

the author sounds like a big old crank to me


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think the Author gets your average dog would NEVER be able to make it as a canine cop, or that dogs can and will exert free will because they are animals of course. K9 dogs actually undergo more training than a cop does, and deserve recognition when they fall in the line of duty. After all they don't get a paycheck for their heroism or taken out for a beer.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:hammer: really?!?


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I think the author of this article can kiss my right butt cheek.

First, he obviously has never had any real contact with dogs and certainly never with the highly intelligent german shepherd. He obviously has never experienced the love, loyalty and companionship of a dog.

Second, Time magazine had a cover article recently about how many animals (dogs included) certainly can problem solve. And obviously have a more complex thought process then humans ever gave them credit for.

Third, for him to call the death of the thug who was trying to kill the police officers a tragedy and then downplay the death of the animal that was most likely instrumental in saving those officers lives. 

Now I am sure that dogs have no concept of their own mortality in situations like that but I feel it is certainly appropriate to honor him for saving those officers lives and ensuring that they got to go home to their families that night. And if he is more concerned with the death of a teenage criminal who was trying to kill the police officers, well, then I say he is full of horse poo.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DharmasMom said:


> *I think the author of this article can kiss my right butt cheek.*
> 
> Now I am sure that dogs have no concept of their own mortality in situations like that but I feel it is certainly appropriate to honor him for saving those officers lives and ensuring that they got to go home to their families that night. *And if he is more concerned with the death of a teenage criminal who was trying to kill the police officers, well, then I say he is full of horse poo*.


I had to laugh out loud at that. Good thought. 

However, I am more concerned with the tragedy of the human life than the dog life. Even a teenage criminal shooting at police officers. So that makes me full of horse poo. I do not fault the officers that killed Levi. He was shooting at them. It makes it no less tragic. The guy had a three year old daughter. And he was sick, clearly mentally ill, before he decided to go down shooting. 

Maybe people who are so messed up in their minds are better off dead, I don't know, but it is tragic all the same. Some teenage foolery, messing around with some stupid concoctions literally ruined his life. 

My brother's step son and some other kids also dropped the same bad acid. And he also has been diagnosed now with schizophrenia. It is a horrible disease. And you can say it was his own fault for taking drugs. All I can think is that kids really, really do not think about all the possible things that might happen if they do something. 

So tragic yes. Is his life worth the dog's life? Yes. Is his life worth a police officer's life? No, not if he is shooting at them. They have to fire back.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i couldnt finish the article. I think the author of the article is an idiot. Those dogs are not simply your classic pet. They actually work. They do a great deal. Just like our military and police, firefighters and EMT's go out there and put their lives on the line and spend long hours away from their family... I believe these dogs are K9 cops for a reason. They do the work (even if they think of it as fun) and their lives are on the line just as the human cops. I get the feeling the author is just resentful.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

It is sad when any mentally ill person ends up in that situation. There is no real evidence of LSD causing schizophrenia. It is a devastating illness that usually strikes in late teens or early twenties. There was no mention of the teenager being mentally ill and I worked in an inner city pediatric ER long enough to know that many of these teenagers are old beyond their chronological years. 

I personally don't mourn the loss of anyone who is trying to kill a police officer. But I do mourn the life of the K9 that died trying to protect them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

From what I heard, a group of kids were dropping the same acid, which had too much rat poison in it. Several of them were then diagnosed with schizophrenia. But it is true that it is a rumour. My brother's kid and the kid that did the shooting in my scenario were best buds both ok before bad acid, both diagnosed schizo afterwards. I do not know the names of the other kids, just that there were a group of them. 

Levi was 19 or 20 when the shooting happened. Around here that is an adult with only some of the privledges. But what if he was a returning veteran from Irac and lost it and tried to shoot at the cops? Would that be tragic enough for you?

Mental illness is tragic, and sometimes, it is not always cut and dried about who should be mourned for and who should not be. 

But the author of the article does have a screw loose. I don't see how honoring a dog, honors police officers any less. 

Well unless it is here where there is a nice monument for the dog, and nothing for the cop that was killed in the line of duty years ago. Now I am going to have to look closer at the memorial park and see if they have a stone for him too. But they put it up AFTER the dog died. Glover died ten or more years before. 

Sad that it takes a dog's death to recognize fallen officers.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> It is sad when any mentally ill person ends up in that situation. There is no real evidence of LSD causing schizophrenia. It is a devastating illness that usually strikes in late teens or early twenties. There was no mention of the teenager being mentally ill and I worked in an inner city pediatric ER long enough to know that many of these teenagers are old beyond their chronological years.
> 
> *I personally don't mourn the loss of anyone who is trying to kill a police officer. But I do mourn the life of the K9 that died trying to protect them*.


 
:thumbup::thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you ever watch cops or lock up? How many of those people are totally out of their minds? Some of them are drunk or high. Some are mentally ill. 

When people were a danger to themselves or others, they used to commit them to mental instatutions. Now, they do not have to take medicines or stay where they do not want to be. Some of them do not have the insurance to stay in a hospital. Years back I think Governor Cellest in Ohio, caused many of them to be kicked out of mental facilities. 

When people are a danger to themselves or others, and nobody bothered to manage them properly, it is sad for society when these people do something like this. It is our fault.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> From what I heard, a group of kids were dropping the same acid, which had too much rat poison in it. Several of them were then diagnosed with schizophrenia. But it is true that it is a rumour. My brother's kid and the kid that did the shooting in my scenario were best buds both ok before bad acid, both diagnosed schizo afterwards. I do not know the names of the other kids, just that there were a group of them.



I'm going to thread jack for a minute here. Rat poison is actually a derivative of a drug that is given to millions of people daily. It is called Coumadin (or warfarin) and it is used in people to thin the blood and prevent blood clots from forming. In massive doses it will cause massive internal bleeding which is what happens in rat poison. It in no way can cause schizophrenia. 

NOW, that being said, LSD is infamous for causing flashbacks in people even long after the drug leaves their system. Especially in repeated use or if someone gets a hold of a "bad batch". Schizophrenia as a disease that is organic based and many times has a strong familial history. And like I said it most often presents in the late teens or early 20's. I don't think it was caused by the kids taking "bad acid".

/end thread jack


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So two unrelated friends, taking the same drugs, both end up with the same nasty disease, as well as others in their group. Last I heard, people did not know exactly what causes Schizophrenia. Believe it or not, my friend's kid was diagnosed after a bad hockey injury with a really bad concussion. 

When I was a kid in HS, 25 years or more ago, we heard about flashbacks from LSD. These kids are schizo, not just having flashbacks.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

You are right. Mental health care in this country is an absolute disgrace. Many, many people don't get the help they need. A majority of homeless people have serious mental health issues that aren't being treated. Unfortunately many mentally ill people get treated, get better on their meds and then decide they are better and don't need the meds any more. This is a vicious cycle that repeats over and over again in many cases. 

Also, schizophrenics rarely are violent. Most of the ones I have had contact with are too scared of their hallucinations to be a real danger. Now, there are exceptions to that and occasionally one does get violent but they are usually to disorganized in their thinking as well to have a well laid out plan.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ever see "A Beautiful Mind"? I never really understood how Russell Crowe's character got Schizophrenia.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

They don't really know exactly what causes it. But there is definitely a genetic component and many researchers think it is a combination of genetic, biological and environmental factors. 



> Schizophrenia may result from a combination of genetic, biological, cultural, and psychological factors.
> 
> * Genetic evidence *
> Some evidence supports a genetic predisposition. Close relatives of persons with schizophrenia are up to 50 times more likely to develop schizophrenia; the closer the degree of biological relatedness, the higher the risk.
> ...


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

The author is a Catholic priest, and I think his faith influences his outlook on animals. In other words, if God said in Genesis to "subdue the earth and have dominion over all creatures" then that means holding up humans as having infinite value and then saying that animals have no rights, right? That was the traditional interpretation given to that part of the Bible. We just do whatever we want to creation and animals because God said we could.

Well, most Christian churches and the Catholic Church no longer give that interpretation to "dominion." On the contrary, they are totally on the side of seeing the teaching in Genesis as saying we are stewards, entrusted with animals and creation to care for them, protect them, and treat them as special beings "on loan" from God. Yes, we have to eat them to survive (unless you live in a part of the world with the luxury of a "choose your diet" option).

But showing regard for animals does not automatically mean we are disregarding humans. Some animal lovers do that, which I think is wrong (even a human life that is whacko is still human, and if the police have to shoot him, it is not something they enjoy or pop open champagne about). 

So, I think the Father needs to get in touch with the teachings of his own denomination, which has always been animal loving (first animal hospital in the 1600's was started by a Catholic friar) as people know that St. Francis called the animals his "brothers and sisters."

Secondly, the Father's opinions have certain leaps or jumps to conclusions which are not logical. For instance, animals have no "reason" and therefore, he says, they have "no rights." In logic, that is called a "non sequitur" or something that isn't necessarily true. Or he says that honors are bestowed so that we can "imitate the hero" but that also does not follow as necessary. 

Sometimes, a community can bestow honors on a person or a dog as a way of saying "thank you" or "we love you" or "we love what you represent to us." It is possible for me to honor a person or a dog without necessarily wanting to imitate their life.

The comment I most find to be a "non-sequitur" is that by giving a dog a ceremonial funeral similar to what a human would get, we are saying "your late loved one has the same value as a trained animal." That is a huge leap. What we are really saying is that dogs have become extremely important and we need to honor that importance, the role they play, the increased quality of life they give us. That does not necessarily mean we are now calling them "human."

A ceremony for a K9 gives the community, I think, a chance to marvel at the fact that while some humans act like animals (criminals), there are also some animals that act like humans (K9 dogs). 

The Father does not realize that the funeral was not to diminish the human; it was to be grateful that when the human with his mind and reason failed the community (with criminal conduct), the animal with mere instinct and blind obedience stepped up and provided a service of protection. 

It actually gives someone more of an appreciation to think that God exists, because we ask ourselves, "when animals without our intelligence begin to act as if they had our intelligence, then perhaps this is not just an accident but is the design of a Higher Power."


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

The Father who wrote this article should get in touch with history also. I read an article somewhere about the Middle Ages in England. There was a story I read about the convents and the nuns in the 1100's or 1200's in England. Apparently, the bishops wrote the mother superiors and claimed that the convents were overrun with dogs, which were all the pets of the nuns.

The Catholic bishops wrote that this was wrong, since having pets and feeding them was a luxury, and nuns are not supposed to have luxuries. So they said they were going to inspect the convents to make sure the nuns would get rid of the dogs. Well, the nuns were obedient, but in the case of their dogs, they said, "get rid of my dog? I DON'T THINK SO." 

So when the bishops would inspect the convents, they would hide the dogs, sometimes even in the forest. After the bishops left, they would bring the dogs back, because they could sacrifice a lot of things, but they would not sacrifice having dogs for pets LOL.

The Father who wrote this article needs to get on the learning curve, and learn that it's not "just a dog." I used to think like that before I got my first GSD, and then I got enlightened.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Like I said, he has obviously never had any real experience with dogs and certainly not gsds.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Like I said, he has obviously never had any real experience with dogs and certainly not gsds.


 
which makes this all the more upsetting because this is yet another person who says "its just a dog" and doesnt give credit where its due. As i said i didnt read the whole article but i think the HUMAN officer who lost his furry partner would probably want to knock this guy on his rear for the "its just a dog" comment. We all know they arent JUST dogs.


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## squerly (Aug 3, 2008)

Since when has this washed up rag been worth reading anyway?


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

A funeral is for the living. When an officer dies in the line of duty they are entitled to full honors. Many parts of the honors are done by officers who never heard of the deceased but will travel hundreds of miles anyway because we know the honors are for the job the officer did. The family decides how much of the honors will be worked into the funeral and the honors are a gift from those of us who know that we could just as easily been the one receiving the honors. 

If a dog dies in the line of duty the handler is his family and honors are owed to the handler to help him with his loss. The funeral is not the same as a human funeral but it is still important that it be provided for the handler if he wants it for part of the grieving process.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> The police came and Levi was shooting at them. They sent Cero after him, and he shot and killed the dog, a nice black and tan GSD, well known in the community.
> 
> The shot and killed him then.
> 
> I was glad that they killed him, kind of. I mean, he would have probably been on trial with the death penalty involved because he killed someone and killed the dog. Killing the dog wouldn't do it, but I think that maybe it would have been enough to make it capital murder in Ohio. No one wants to see a police dog die, except career criminals, but no one wants big publicity about the dog killing murderer getting death either.


Unfortunately most of society (who hears of a police dog getting killed and subsequently the person who killed the dog getting killed) thinks that the officers killed the person because the person killed the dog.

Not the case.

Once the weapon comes out, all bets are off. You can bet your last dollar that dog or not, when that gun starts firing in any direction (and keep in mind the dog is being sent from the same direction as the officers - the gun is pointed in THEIR DIRECTION) the officers WILL fire back.

They will not sit there and think to themselves, oh he's just firing at the dog - it's ok. Once the gun comes out - whether they knew the man walking the dog had been shot or not at that point in time - they have reason to fear their lives, and the lives of anyone around them including other officers as well as innocent people. At that point, they have the right to use lethal force, and would have been negligent in not doing so.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

squerly said:


> Since when has this washed up rag been worth reading anyway?


Yeah, not so much. Unless you're a Moonie, I guess: Sun Myung Moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## imroc (Oct 7, 2010)

Some people have very little to do with their lives and have twisted thinking without any respect for what God has graced us with. I'd rather post something much more uplifting and honorable:
The Military Working Dog Memorial


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

imroc said:


> Some people have very little to do with their lives and have twisted thinking without any respect for what God has graced us with. I'd rather post something much more uplifting and honorable:
> The Military Working Dog Memorial


The story about Lex made me cry!!! Happy tears though!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

People are so warped. If a dog saved my life, or the life of someone close to me - he would be my hero. It wouldn't be important that the dog understand. It would only be important that I understood. K-9 officers know what these dogs do for them. As others have said, memorials are for the living. It is our opportunity to remember - even if we choose to remember a dog. If we only honored dogs and not human officers, that would be a problem. That, however, is not the case.

A slight detour from the thread, but how does this grab you? On Monday, there was a funeral service for a Baltimore police officer. The public was given plenty of notice about the funeral - times, routes, etc. Well....Some guy wrote to the local paper complaining about the funeral procession. He said he was in support of officers, but that it was ridiculous to tie up traffic like that,

It must be very comforting to that officers family to know that the biggest concern for their loved one was that his funeral inconvenienced morning commuters.


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## MrsMiaW (Sep 25, 2010)

The author of the first posted article is a CabbageHead. I'd like to use stronger words, but I don't want to get kicked off the forum.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

MrsMiaW said:


> The author of the first posted article is a CabbageHead. I'd like to use stronger words, but I don't want to get kicked off the forum.



agreed!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rerun said:


> Unfortunately most of society (who hears of a police dog getting killed and subsequently the person who killed the dog getting killed) thinks that the officers killed the person because the person killed the dog.
> 
> Not the case.
> 
> ...


I actually think they sent the dog to try and SAVE the man's life. 

I think that they tried everything possible without putting MORE humans in even more danger to disarm this guy. 

I do not think they killed him because he killed the dog.


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## AutismDogGirl (Oct 7, 2010)

I am sorry I disagree with the auther I really do. I have a service dog and while she isn't a police dog I CAN relate. Police dogs are hero and the handlers put their lives in these dogs paws so to speak everyday. This dog is their partner. They depend on these dogs loosing one of these dogs is a tragedy!These dogs do have free will all dogs do. Also even if you get the dog and half expect it to take a bullet for you one day, it does NOTHING to ease the pain of the loss. YES this teenage boy's death IS also a tragedy and he needs his respects paid as well but this do deserves an honorable funeral. these dogs do things most dogs would run from. I know dogs who it doesn't matter what you do there is nothing that will convince them to run at a man firing a gun. HA the writer CLEAR hasn't owned a dog or really felt that bind. I saw one REALLY good comment by someone replying to the article. people like this auther remind me everyday WHY I would rather spend the day with a pack of dogs and (and my boyfriend) then go to a party.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

The article that we are discussing was written by a Catholic priest and from that standpoint I can understand what he means. A funeral for a dog is not a Catholic sacrement. If he was the one asked to perform the sacrement he would have reason to complain. 

The funeral rites in question are in honor of the actions of an officer. The funeral was for a dog at a Baptist church. The police traditions are appropriate and they should be combined with whatever form of funeral ceremony is determined to be appropriate between the family (handler), the police department, and the presiding clergy.

If my pipe band was asked to play for that funeral, I would have taken a day off work to attend.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Having attended more funerals of both officer and dog than I really care to remember, it's not about the dead. A police funeral is for honoring the service. Being retired military, it's the same. A military funeral is no so much for the dead as it is an honor paid for the service provided. Do dogs provide a service, you bet your sweet patootie. Are they heros; I don't know if they are heros but in my mind they certainly deserve the honor paid. Dieing for what one believes, laying your life down for another is the definition of; The ultimate sacrifice. In my opinion, an unknown author coined the feeling I have for those that serve; All give some; some give all.

DFrost


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