# Returning a pup back to a breeder



## Shelbie (Jun 13, 2013)

I am having a horrible dilemma right now. I had a 3 yr old show line female that I was head over heels in love with. We were best friends and together 24/7, I had to let her out of her pain on Saturday. To say I am devastated is an understatement. When she was younger I took her to a training facility that has been breeding working line shepherds since 1968 and have fabulous dogs. When they heard her time was near they offered me a 4 month old pup as a gift to help me through this rough time. I didn't have much time to think about my decision, about 2 hours, before they emailed me to say they needed an answer. I was totally honored that they would think enough of me to offer me one of their pups for free, especially one out of such high caliber bloodlines. I have now had the pup about 6 weeks and am having some big issues behavior wise, especially with my husband, and I have no idea how to handle the situation. My husband likes the pup but would rather have another show line, and one that is smaller. This pup is probably going to end up around 95 lbs. I am taking classes with the breeder and am getting a handle on him obedience wise, but he is still having issues with my husband that is getting out of hand. I am considering returning the pup, which is something I have never done before. I feel horrible about this but I feel I am not experienced enough of a trainer to handle a working line pup of this breeding. Any advice :frown2:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Best to return now, be up front with the breeder. The pup will be better off placed with the type handler that can and wants to deal with him. I'm sorry for your loss.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How callous of the breeder to demand an answer in two hours right after you lost your dog. Would never go back there again. He must have known that the pup had issues as he was too eager to pawn him off to you.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

What are the issues?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Look, you've done your best with the puppy. It came to you later, 4 months old, when it should have come around 8 weeks. With some puppies this isn't an issue, but it is a LOT easier to step into the role of leader when the pup is looking for a momma/litter substitute. At 4 months, the pup is starting to lose its puppy license, and, probably needs a lot firmer hand, if the significant people in it life are brand new.

The show line pups may be easier to handle, easier to bond with, with your leadership style. 

I would call the breeder and give the puppy back to them. It was a nice thing that they did. At this point, that pup can come back and will not be the worst for having another handler. Lots of police k9 prospect puppies are deliberately given changes in handlers as the mature, so don't feel bad about that. 

I know that even when there are challenges, maybe moreso when there are challenges, we get attached to the puppy, so that will probably be hard for you. Most likely the puppy will be over it in a couple of days. 

If it isn't working out after six weeks, it is far better to do this now than to wait until this puppy is 10 or 12 months old, or 14-18 months old.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

Take this as something just to think about. I have three working line GSDs. Each was a challenge (still can be). But each is loyal and loving to a fault (much like you describe you want your dog to be). Consider stepping back and accepting your puppy for what he/she is, a working line high energy dog who wants to please you and see if you can work with that to form a partnership. I can tell you that from my experience X3, the hard work has been returned 10X in the love and trust I have with my dogs. IF you really feel you can't handle this, then yes you should return the puppy so that the breeder can find a good fit for this puppy.
Good Luck and I am sorry to hear about your loss, it always breaks my heart to hear about someone who has lost such a loved one.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

That need for a decision in 2hrs really seems conflicting with the "This is a gift to you" sentiment. Especially where you were under such emotional termoil. 

I am a bit curious as to the issues you are having but in any event, I think you should have allowed yourself some grieving and healing time.

I so sorry for your loss.


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## Shelbie (Jun 13, 2013)

My husband is 6'2" 250 lb guy that this puppy basically mauls with overly zealous affection. If he is sitting on the couch, chair wherever, this pup will jump on him full speed start aggressively licking him, then the licking turns into biting and hair chewing, then he literally starts climbing over the top of his head and just gets totally out of control and starts peeing all over from the excitement. If my husband tries to defend himself, or correct him,the pup starts biting his arms Even when I have him on a leash with a correction collar he pulls me so hard to get to him that he starts chocking himself and refuses to give up. If my husband is standing he will try jumping on him, grabbing his arms and has torn his clothes. I have had to resort to using the end of the leash to smack him on his hind end to get him off of him and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Ocassionally he will yelp and run off to hide from me. I do all the training and corrections with him and I don't want this to escalate into a situation where he becomes a fearful puppy. When I am with him by myself and my husband is not around this pup and I get along very well with little issues. My concern is that if I can't get control of this pup (even with something as simple as mauling my husband) at only 50 lbs how will I be able to control him when he is 90 - 100 lbs and tries to chase after another dog, cat, or whatever. I feel horrible that I am even thinking about giving up on him but I have to be realistic. And no, I am not getting rid of my husband for this pup, we have been together since 1993, LOL


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

"And no Im not getting rid of my husband" lol cute! Anyway yeah, it seems very odd that they would gift you a puppy, even more odd that they would want you to make a decision about it when you are emotional and within two hours. It could be nothing but, like someone said, they could be pawning off the dog to you. 

Let me just say that my pup has working lines in her on her dads side but not moms. We looked extremely hard for the right trainer and it has helped soooo much! Before the trainer she was kind of a puppy nightmare. I had moments where I wasn't sure we were the right owners for our pup. She is still a handful but so is my toddler and Im not giving him away any time soon!  You are the only one who knows what you can handle. Don't feel guilty if you decide he has a better chance at a harmonious life with someone else. 

Id make the decision sooner rather than later. You could always give him back and find a pup with a more mellow disposition. If you thought maybe you could handle it, find the right trainer quickly. Good luck. Don't let anyone pressure you either way. Your the one who will have to live with the dog for the next 12 years..


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

This pup needs to know what is expected of him an then in an age appropriate way he needs to be corrected. I don't think smacking him with a leash is appropriate. If that is what you are resorting to I would work with your trainer. Maybe time to think about a prong collar. He is young but sometimes behavior and strength determines when you go to the prong. That he is in control with you and not with your husband means something is not clear to him that the manners have to be generalized to other people. I do think this is typical 5 month old stuff. You need consistency and clear communication. I would film it and share it with your trainer. I don't think this is hard to fix with consistency and fairness. Saying this I can't help thinking that your husband is allowing this too. My dutchie treated (and some times still does) my husband as his litter mate. He didn't respect my husband as much as just saw him as a littermate to horse around with. Totally my husband's fault for egging him on and not setting good and clear boundaries.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

So sorry to hear about your girl, she sounds like she was a very special dog. It must be hard to lose such a great dog at a young age. The issues you are describing with your pup seem like about normal GSD puppy behavior to me, maybe not the peeing everywhere but the jumping, biting, ripping clothes, over excitement, from what I've heard and experienced that is normal and is just your pup not knowing what is ok and what is not at this point because it's a baby. Have you done any training with the pup yet? I bet if you let the breeder know whats going on they would help you with the pup's behavior issues. Would try to bring it up in the most positive light possible though, as not to seem unappreciative of them giving you the pup.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL yet again I'm up! Patron Saint of lost causes?? 

First if you want to say "screw it to much dog for me" and give him back, there is no shame in that! It sounds like you did as much research on WL GSD's as I did ... which was uh ... none! For me my first WL GSD was just a big furry dog with a pointy face (Boxer Guy) Me and my guy (Rocky OS WL GSD) had a very bumpy road together! But ... we got'er done and I have absolutely "Zero" regrets today! 

So "if" you want to keep him ... you just need a plan. I think I can help you out?? If the pup is able to run at your husband and jump all over him and stuff?? Well that's where we need to start. Outside is for "Play" inside is to chill. I don't know if this puppy is Crate trained, if he is not he needs to be! The Crate is not only about keeping dogs out of trouble or out of your hair (as it should not be punishment) it is about rules limits and discipline! So step ... one Crate train the puppy, looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ihx_tUyG40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7lyzbgTXjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn5HTiryZN8

The first one is puppys the others are dogs but those are the "principles" involved. I'am going somewhere here so bear with me. 

The goal is going to be ultimately "No Free Roaming in the home!" Ultimately the reason the little guy is free to run amok on your husband is because well he's free to run run amuck! It needs to stop! No more free roaming in the home! Lock down time, usually reserved for dogs with issues but your pup is over the top! So might as well start now!

Indoors ... the puppy should be in his "Crate" or in "Place" period end of story, No free roaming in the home! That means no bed or furniture privileges ... those are rights that need to be earned. Training "Place" can be found here and there are clips for training "Puppies in Place" by Bethany ... I'll get back to her in a bit. 

So what you need so far is Crate Training, Train Place and No free Roaming in the home. Usually by and large "Big Dawg" stuff but since he is acting like a big "Dawg" already you should train him like one. 

All that being said here is ... "The Place Command" :
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And you will find a clip by "Bethany" on training puppies in "Place" in there. 


So if you start to work on those you will have no need to "correct" the puppy for bad behaviour but ... right now you do and it seems that is kinda sorta of a problem. Puppy is kinda out of control. Corrections being to harsh by you?? Are a concern and none at all by your better half, as he is getting chomped on!

If you want that to stop "right freaking now" as am I want to say, use a tool to take "you" out of the picture as regards "corrections."

The "Pet Convincer" is made for people that have "issues with proper corrections" details are here:

Pet Convincer.com

Clip pretty much explains it, I'll add it's a bicycle pump so you can get one at Bicycle Shop for around $16.00.

A heads up, aim it at the dog's shoulder not his face and preferably don't let the Dog/Puppy see it. Don't make a big dog deal out of it ... you say "No" or "Place" once trained. And if the "puppy" ignores ... deploy the tool! A tip from a member on BoxerForum, she only needed it once or maybe twice?? If she does the "Psst" sound "now" it has the same effect as using the tool ... the dog stops whatever it was doing cold!. 

And WL dog and all yeah I'd be extremely cautious of the treating people like you had a lab approach. A much better approach in my view would be the first link here. "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog":

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

For me as it turns out that is always what I did with my dogs anyway, the only difference was with my "Bully's" if asked to Pet I would always say yes "Please Do" Boxer's luv'd people! With "my" OS WL GSD the answer became "NO" he was clearly not a fan of people! 

He made it pretty clear early on with guest in the home for the first time ... he was not a fan. In anycase I showed him how I "expected him to behave." I stepped in front of him to keep people out of his face. He learned that people were no big deal ... worked out fine. 

If your "expecting him to be crazy in luv with people?? That might not work out to well?? If you make adjustments in your expectations of the people thing with this dog ... then no problem. 

And finally for "Puppy" specific stuff ... here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/user/DogerciseLA/playlists

Top row all the way to the right "Puppy" specific stuff by "Bethany." Only you can decide what's best for you but if all you needed was a plan ... well now you have one. Good luck, Welcome Aboard and ask questions.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

When we have been contacted by someone who just lost their dog or about to, we tell them to wait until it is the right time. We would never push for someone to get a new dog.

We turned down someone that had a dog from us and an older one from someone else. When the older one died, they contacted us. We told them to wait a bit, but they wanted a replacement for the older dog ASAP. They went to another breeder and got a puppy immediately.

We did the right thing for the puppy and for the family.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Maybe if your husband could carry a tug with him, and redirect the pup it wouldn't be much of a problem. Also from what I've heard WL don't really get in that 95+ pound range.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sorry Chip, I have to laugh everytime I see a link for the "Pet Convincer" - such a silly name for a silly gadget! And again, this falls into using aversives on a PUPPY!!! Tons of potential to instill life-long fear of harmless gusts of air and burst of noise into a developing brain.  

If someone wants to use this on an adult dog, well okay, but I would highly discourage anyone from using it for a pup.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> Sorry Chip, I have to laugh every time I see a link for the "Pet Convincer" - such a silly name for a silly gadget! And again, this falls into using aversives on a PUPPY!!! Tons of potential to instill life-long fear of harmless gusts of air and burst of noise into a developing brain.
> 
> If someone wants to use this on an adult dog, well okay, but I would highly discourage anyone from using it for a pup.


PC or return the dog?? People like to have options, Train Place, Crate the Puppy and no free roaming in the home and the puppy can't make a chew out of her husband. 

All of that takes time, OP is concerned about over harsh corrections and the husband (apparently) has zero ability to get puppy to dial it down??

It strikes me ... that this not a "puppy" that is lacking in confidence?? 

Yep no doubt "this" situation would not be an "issue" for a lot of "us" ... that is not much help to the "OP??" 

I'm not a "The Power of Tug" kinda guy but ... here you go.  :
Leerburg | The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog DVD

I much prefer to stop crap behavior cold, not offer an alternative but it's the OP's call ...not ours.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would rather someone return the dog than use something that is going to scare a young pup like this one. Having a dog that drops or shakes at loud noises and having to try and work that out of them is a lot more difficult than, dealing with puppy tom-foolery. 

Just because a puppy seems confident because it is energetic and gets amped up and plays hard, doesn't mean that it is hard. It is just energetic, plays hard and gets amped up. 

It sounds like the dog would fare better in a more active home, one more experienced with this type of shepherd. There is no reason to try to cram a round peg into a square hole. I think after six weeks the owner realizes that this isn't the kind of dog she wants/needs. That's ok.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

selzer said:


> I would rather someone return the dog than use something that is going to scare a young pup like this one. Having a dog that drops or shakes at loud noises and having to try and work that out of them is a lot more difficult than, dealing with puppy tom-foolery.



I tried the pet corrector and it worked for a day. She was never scared of it. It just snapped her out of what she was doing. I just don't picture a GSD pup getting scared of air pressure to the point that they start shaking. Sounds like something only a fearful dog would do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppies are funny sometimes. They go through periods on occasion. Lots of dogs are afraid of thunder, vets, gun shots. I wouldn't use loud noises or air pressure as a punishment. Of course, I don't use prongs or e-collars either. I don't throw chains at dogs, whip them with leashes or newspapers. I have something that works with my dogs, it is called a voice. It can give me happy praise, moderate praise, soft praise, stern command, average command, requests and questions, reminders, average correction, strong correction. My voice is aided by my eyeballs which my dogs watch, they can tell when I have happy eyes, and when I give them the hairy eyeball, they know not to mess with that piece of meat I am not done with yet.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> I tried the pet corrector and it worked for a day. She was never scared of it. It just snapped her out of what she was doing. I just don't picture a GSD pup getting scared of air pressure to the point that they start shaking. Sounds like something only a fearful dog would do.


Yessss, it's funny how the "folks" most opposed to the "PC' are folks that have need of one??

In any case the "PC' is a side issue, the "issue" is "this" dog is not they expected?? This one is not like my "other" dog??

The real decision is "do I adapt to the dog in front of me and change my "expectations" which may mean learning different ways of doing things or "bail" and return the dog and go back to "familiar ground??"

A first time WL GSD can be quite the challenge! I don't recommend them to most folks I know ... OK ... no one I know. 

But the dog is there now ... so the *"time to fish or cut bait" *... is now. If you get it right with a WL GSD ... it's well worth the effort!

I have no regrets myself.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

selzer said:


> Puppies are funny sometimes. They go through periods on occasion. Lots of dogs are afraid of thunder, vets, gun shots. I wouldn't use loud noises or air pressure as a punishment. Of course, I don't use prongs or e-collars either. I don't throw chains at dogs, whip them with leashes or newspapers. I have something that works with my dogs, it is called a voice. It can give me happy praise, moderate praise, soft praise, stern command, average command, requests and questions, reminders, average correction, strong correction. My voice is aided by my eyeballs which my dogs watch, they can tell when I have happy eyes, and when I give them the hairy eyeball, they know not to mess with that piece of meat I am not done with yet.


PC are not punishment, its a correction. I don't use E-collars or prong collars either. I see nothing wrong with a little leash correction. I like the idea of voice working like magic but my puppy doesn't listen to my voice every single time. As she gets older, yes she listens more and more but there are times when she is pumped and my voice is not enough. What do you do in those situations? Im sure it's happened to you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> PC are not punishment, its a correction. I don't use E-collars or prong collars either. I see nothing wrong with a little leash correction. I like the idea of voice working like magic but my puppy doesn't listen to my voice every single time. As she gets older, yes she listens more and more but there are times when she is pumped and my voice is not enough. What do you do in those situations? Im sure it's happened to you.










Sorry couldn't help myself.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Agaribay805 said:


> PC are not punishment, its a correction. I don't use E-collars or prong collars either. I see nothing wrong with a little leash correction. I like the idea of voice working like magic but my puppy doesn't listen to my voice every single time. As she gets older, yes she listens more and more but there are times when she is pumped and my voice is not enough. What do you do in those situations? Im sure it's happened to you.


Nope. When my puppy is pumped, I am excited, and we have fun together. Voice is always working. If I become irritated or frustrated about something, well, that's my problem. I must not take it out on the puppy.

I use tone of voice, not volume of voice. If a normal tone is not getting through, I lower it and slow it down. Works. 

If I think the dog is becoming more pumped than I want, I can reduce my excited tone, and limit praise. Works. 

The pup is easy, training myself, disciplining myself -- that is always the challenging part.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

selzer said:


> Nope. When my puppy is pumped, I am excited, and we have fun together. Voice is always working. If I become irritated or frustrated about something, well, that's my problem. I must not take it out on the puppy.
> 
> I use tone of voice, not volume of voice. If a normal tone is not getting through, I lower it and slow it down. Works.
> 
> ...


Im sorry I just find it hard to believe that your voice works every single time and always has. Maybe your dog is very compliant in nature. Our pup is extremely strong willed. Lets agree to disagree.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> A first time WL GSD can be quite the challenge! I don't recommend them to most folks I know ... OK ... no one I know.
> 
> If you get it right with a WL GSD ... it's well worth the effort!
> 
> I have no regrets myself.



I had moments when I thought for sure there was something wrong with our pup or I thought we weren't skilled enough for her. Glad we hung though because now she is 100% part of our family and I can't wait to get another. Definitely going for full working line next time!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Agaribay805 said:


> Im sorry I just find it hard to believe that your voice works every single time and always has. Maybe your dog is very compliant in nature. Our pup is extremely strong willed. Lets agree to disagree.


 
Ok, but, I had one of those strong-willed dogs that everyone goes on about. I made a huge mess of him. He was my first dog. After a bunch more GSDs, and a couple of decades, I know now that he wasn't dominant, aggressive, strong-willed, or any of the rest of it. I was just not good at handling him. I learned. Unfortunately, when we continue to blame the dog for our lack of handling skill, we don't grow. 

You are going to have to grow an awful lot if you keep this dog. Challenging dogs do that to us. Or you can give it back to the breeder. That is up to you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> I had moments when I thought for sure there was something wrong with our pup or I thought we weren't skilled enough for her. Glad we hung though because now she is 100% part of our family and I can't wait to get another. Definitely going for full working line next time!!


 Well then we'll say "welcome aboard" again!

And a heads up as long as you don't "expect" him to be all crazy about people and stuff (Boxer Guy) then you won't have one of those "WTH" is this moments, when company comes over for the first time!

My solutions were all pretty simple:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

I did not do the crate thing or the no free roaming ... those were mistakes, got stiches learning the vale of NO Free Roaming in the house ... live and learn. 

The only thing I had to do "different" was ... work with dog in front of me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ok, but, I had one of those strong-willed dogs that everyone goes on about. I made a huge mess of him. He was my first dog. After a bunch more GSDs, and a couple of decades, I know now that he wasn't dominant, aggressive, strong-willed, or any of the rest of it. I was just not good at handling him. I learned. Unfortunately, when we continue to blame the dog for our lack of handling skill, we don't grow.
> 
> You are going to have to grow an awful lot if you keep this dog. Challenging dogs do that to us. Or you can give it back to the breeder. That is up to you.


No disagreement here but I do believe the OP is here looking for answers and yes rehomeing the dog is one of them.

And if they did not that a WL dog could be a challenge?? Then they do now! So I say *"Job well done everyone"  *


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> No disagreement here but I do believe the OP is here looking for answers and yes rehomeing the dog is one of them.
> 
> And if they did not that a WL dog could be a challenge?? Then they do now! So I say *"Job well done everyone"  *


Apparently the word *"know"* is missing.


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