# Help Choosing a Breeder!!



## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

Hello all,

I am new to the site and and looking to get my first IPO pup. I have had many GSDs in the past, as I grew up around them but this will be the first i am training for IPO. I am looking for a very drivey dog. Great food, ball and retrieve drives. Loves to work and is very handler focused, without being handler sensitive. Great full grips. I am looking at 2 different litters. Any help and/or opinions on which would better meet my needs, comments on the breeder or dogs would be greatly appreciated.



!. Dan Cox - Vom Starkenhund

Max ze Stribrneho kamene x Furious von Wolfstraum
Line-breeding for the progency of Max ze Stribrneho kamene and V Furious von Wolfstraum

2. Gary Hanahan - Canine Concepts
Danjo vom Lepperhof x Easy von der Hundshardt
Line-breeding for the progency of V- Danjo vom Lepperhof and V Easy von der Hundshardt


I thank you all in advance
Tony


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

My choice... Max and Furious

Currently have a litter of 3 1/2 week old Max babies and love them.
Furious is a 1/2 sister to my late Elsa, and love those bloodlines. She was very drivey, loved and would do anything for a ball. Easy to train...

Goodluck.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LOL Well - I am going to be prejudiced here.... 

Furious is an absolutely super dog....great great temperament and wonderful trainability....I love her pedigree, love her mother, love her mothers father! Good looking dog...she has littermates and 3/4 and 1/2 siblings that are titled IPO and credentialed LE and SAR dogs....her father was very very accomplished being a WUSV dog (top 10, high protection)...Furi's first litter produced Axel, who is LE dual purpose in Canada and a female who was High IPO2, High Female and High Protection in a very big, very competitive regional last year... Several of the B litter pups are working and should get titled this year I think...and I have seen a pup from the last Max x Furi litter and she is everything you would want in a working prospect...

That all being personal experience....with an 8 week old pup it is still all a crap shoot....but there are enough of Furi's siblings and progeny around to make an educated guess....

The other litter, I like the sire...I have had some dogs with alot of the same lines as the dam....even if Furi was not "mine" - I would pass that one due to my own experience too.

See -  told you I was prejudiced

Lee

*owner of Furi's mom, breeder of Furi *


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## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

LOL hahaha well at least you admit the prejudice upfront ahahaha 

I really like Ava and she seems like she could be a very serious but nice girl. Do you feel that this litter could/would produce serious dogs with what i am looking for? I am still torn if I want a male or female but I'm leanig male, just since I am looking to be in national competition........if all works out. 
Since Ava was from Furious/Chuck, do you feel that Max brings more prey/grip and drive needed for higher competition, even with a female pup? 
I'd love more insight since you know the Dam very well and i'm sure you may know the sire lines also. What about natural aggression? 

Do you feel the other litter is bringing to hard/aggressive of a dog?

-Tony


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't know if it is that females mature faster, or the female family is so strong...but you would do just as well with a female as a male from the Max x Furi cross if Courage and Ava are anything to judge by! 

Falcon, Furi's littermate, has been in a DVG adn WDA national....could have gone to selection trial, but owner (who is older) did not opt to go....there is appropriate social aggression - when I had Falcon, the decoy (former K9 officer) I worked with a bit prior to selling him was trying to get me to sell him as a K9....I would rather have him with the proverbial little old lady LOL LOL....There may be what some would call handler sensitivity - but more in the way the dog is trainable/biddable...not that a correction would shut them down....Furi - all the Basha dogs - are pretty hard and resilient...I am not sure that Max would produce any more social aggression than Chuck - they both have elements in their pedigrees indicating that they will....Max's dam has produced very very strong males....I have a friend in Arkansas with a dog from Max's kennel whose dam was ****** over Bemoan Bee....very very strong male...

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Of the two I like the 1st breeding better except for the linebreeding on Tom. You have to watch for dogs that are difficult to motivate in obedience. Max is an excellent dog. Very very strong all the way around. I don't know Furious, but a friend has seen her and caught her as a helper and really liked her and spoke well of her work. 

I do not care for the other breeding at all.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

TonyT84 said:


> Do you feel the other litter is bringing to hard/aggressive of a dog?
> 
> -Tony


I see the total opposite at least as far as hardness.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would go with the Wolfstraum Furious litter . There is a consistency among all the F litter .
There are quite a few Wolfstraum dogs that I like !


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## Espo4442 (Nov 1, 2012)

I have a pup from Mike Diehl (Max X Gitta) and at 9 months he is everything you are looking for. Very high ball and prey drives, but awesome temperament (The dog is watchful of surroundings but will lick friendly strangers to death). I saw the Max and Furi female pup about a month ago and she was awesome. From what I have been told by a few people, Max brings very real aggression.


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## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

Thank you all so much for the responses, I am pretty shocked. I would have thought the Easy x Danjo litter would have got some good reviews. 

@wolfstraum
I think that the female does mature at a faster pace then males. I think we see this in many species like wolves/lions and many other big cats. So i think this is a safe bet. I very much like Max and what i see in his protection and obedience. I think Furi and Max will pass a great nose for tracking. His mother line is what always throws me off about him. Yes i know Bemoan Bee has thrown some great dogs out there but understanding her ped is just hard for me to get what comes from where. 

@lhczth
I thought this same thing with Tom but I like what he brings in prey, grips and other drives and believe that the trainability comes from Aline, which gave it to Ellute. I could be wrong but this is what i see. I also think Furi has shown a lot for not being a primary Sport dog and more of a house/family dog. Speaks to her great ped.

@espo4442
Thank you for that, it was exactly what i was looking to hear.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I would definitely go with Furi's litter - I can't pass up Ufo in a litter. :wub:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

TonyT84 said:


> Thank you all so much for the responses, I am pretty shocked. I would have thought the Easy x Danjo litter would have got some good reviews.
> 
> @wolfstraum
> I think that the female does mature at a faster pace then males. I think we see this in many species like wolves/lions and many other big cats. So i think this is a safe bet. I very much like Max and what i see in his protection and obedience. I think Furi and Max will pass a great nose for tracking. His mother line is what always throws me off about him. Yes i know Bemoan Bee has thrown some great dogs out there but understanding her ped is just hard for me to get what comes from where.
> ...


LOL oh Furi could have been very very competitive on a high level if someone did not have a world level male to concentrate on!  and had not been trialed in heat with minimal prep training lol....

I think you can get some aggression through the line breeding on Tom as well...as far as prey and grip - and looking at Ava - I don't think there is alot of difference in those two between Max and Chuck...Chuck is probably one of the top dogs in the US for grips (according to a trainer without a horse in the race)....I think that sables sell better than black and tans in the working world tho! 


And as far as Bemoan Bee - join everyone else who  scratches their head over her production...born in US and taken to the CR.....produces some monster strong dogs (from strong males of course!) You cannot deny the success of her progeny....and I know it is carrying through in the next generation with the right choices of breeding pairs....

Lee


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Don't really have anything substantive to add (because I know nothing), but I watched the youtube of Furious's protection work on the Starkenhund site and my goodness but that's a lovely dog. <3


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## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Don't really have anything substantive to add (because I know nothing), but I watched the youtube of Furious's protection work on the Starkenhund site and my goodness but that's a lovely dog. <3


Here is a video of Ava, a daughter, who at the 2012 mideast regional got a 97 in protection for her IPO2!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xzYl59QtQ


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## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> I would definitely go with Furi's litter - I can't pass up Ufo in a litter. :wub:


This is my thought also, I love what Ufo brings and also Jago.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

TonyT84 said:


> Here is a video of Ava, a daughter, who at the 2012 mideast regional got a 97 in protection for her IPO2!!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xzYl59QtQ


Oh wow, thanks for sharing this!

I am just in love with these dogs. Not just the intensity they have in the work, but the little stuff like the happy wave in that big plume of a tail and the backing-up in Heel on left turns. (What can I say, after starting in freestyle, I'll always love a dog with good hind-end awareness.)


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## TonyT84 (Jun 10, 2013)

@Wolfstraum
LOL LOL LOL hahahahah yes, Dan and I talked about that also. I too feel she could have been a very high level competition dog but.........."Chuck" haha need i say more. That was Dan's baby, Furi had no chance. What i will say, is that even with all that she still shows great, which lets you know how great she could be/have been. 

I think great females will come from this breeding looking at past litters from the parents and crossing the parents. 

When looking at Bemoan Bee, I think just the genetics in her are so strong. For me, i love this strong mother line on both the Sire and Dam. And since I am getting a female, this lets me know i can and will be able to have my girl hang with the male dogs. 

I think that what makes this litter interesting is if you look at the father-line, Ellute and ******, both from the same kennel. you know what the give. The mother-line on both makes this such a powerful breeding and could have pups powerful for high sport and elite k9.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ava looks so much like her grandmother in the work!!!! Except cleaner outs LOL LOL Very very strong females - 3s all the way back 5 generations at least....

Up to recently, Spitzbubezwinger's breeding females were all Babsi daughters adn granddaughters, except for an Ufo daughter! Just super female family...but Basha and all her progeny are great companion dogs as well...

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First litter!.....not a fan of second litter at all, but that is personal preference and not reflection on the two individual dogs.


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