# 7yr old male-Need an Objective Opinion



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

I am sorry if this ends up long but I need an objective opinion, I will give as much detail as I can. I know what my heart tells me I should do, but are there mitigating circumstances?

We got Justice as a pup at 12 weeks old, he is now just turned 7yrs old, he is neutered. His general health is good with a very minimal medical history other than shots. Mostly he has had his yearly shots and minor skin problems. Justice has been heavily socialized with both children and adults and all breeds of dogs and gets his excercise. Justice has had basic obedience training and minds very well. There have been no problems with Justice until recently. The problems seem to be when I am with him not my wife or children(who are older now and not living at home). He is protective of his family/home/yard as he is supposed to be. He has in the last 6 months let a plumber into our home without doing anything to him, he did know the plumber but not that well.

Several months ago I was out with him walking and he growled at an older lady when we were walking, I had him on my left and was walking him towards the lady and she would pass us on my right (away from Justice) as I always do. He did tug at the leash, as I had him semi-short-leashed he could not do anything. I appologized to the lady for his behaviour as it was not him.

We now move forward to this week. My wife and I are on holidays this week, we went out to the cottage last Saturday. This week in Ontario the weather is very hot and humid 100+ with humidity. Against my wishes my wife was exercising Justice a lot in the hot/humid weather. He was in and out of the water during the heat of the day and played with the "Chuck it" a couple times in the day in the yard/beach area. I should say that normally when we take Justice to the cottage it is for Friday night, Saturday and he is home Sunday night. When he comes home Sunday he is tired and sleeps most of Monday to recover. Moving on, on Wednesday I take Justice to the back to have him relive himself, on leash, we see an adult male friend coming carrying a rake and shovel, who Justice knows/has played with on the beach. He growls, I correct,(maybe I miss the body language) he lunges and actually bites and break the skin in two small places on the friends right forearm. There are no punctures under the arm, not a full bite. (I saw him yesterday and the punctures are almost healed so it could not have been much of a puncture) He is scolded and put in a down stay. I appologize to the friend profusely and I don't know who is shocked more him or me and we talk about how totally out of character this is for Justice. I take him into the cottage and he knows he has done wrong and is docile the rest of the day. Justice actually had played in the water with him earlier in the week and later that day with no problems. I did notice on the Monday and Tuesday nights he slept on his couch most of the night after dark. To me he is tired. 

Thursday, wife goes into town to get groceries she asks me to take him down to beach and play in water with him. We are off leash, he goes down about 8-10 stairs to sand, there is an adult female sitting on a blanket. He growls and runs at her. I call him off and he stops, just in front of her face-does not bite. Scares me scares her. Justice in down stay and does. I hold him til she goes up. Take him back into cottage, again he is docile knows he has done wrong. Go back over and appologies again. Next step call vet, appointment made for the same day.

I take him home from cottage. Justice goes to vet, explain situation. Now he is a biter, local Health Unit called, which I should have known, must wear a muzzle at vet etc etc. Explain to vet how this is out of character, she does physical and pulls blood for senior dog testing. Physical tests: heart ok, lungs ok, general health good, the only thing I have noticed is I have to help him into truck in last few months and he is biting at left rear paw. Manipulate rear area-pain. Vet takes blood and prescribes pain meds. She comments that he is so good with her. Get the usual must keep him secured for the next 10 days and stay in yard unless muzzled etc.

The blood tests came back today with negative results. He is on pain meds for another 6 days. I have been observing him for the last few days since home. Yesterday he was very tired, today he seems to be back to his old self. He is in an air conditioned environment at the lake and at home and stays inside most of the time.

Ok, the hard part. My heart tells me that I can't have an aggressive dog or a biter. I am far from an expert on the behaviour of dogs, he is my fourth GSD. Here is my problem, please help here.

1) Could this be a heat stress/over exercise/stress reaction/pain reaction of any kind to explain this behaviour? As he has never been at the cottage this long before? Vet was really no help in this area.

2) Are dogs like humans and should I expect his behaviour to escalate?


Should Justice be given another chance? If he really meant to bite the guy he is capable of a lot more damage to the arm than two small punctures and no punctures under the arm or any other damage. If so my plan would be that he is on leash at all times when out of the house/at cottage. Limit his exercise at cottage especially in heat/humidity. Enforce all rules with him at all times no more wishy/washy discipline with Justice with my wife.

Or do I put Justice down after the 10 day period is up? This is very hard for me as I cannot take the chance that he may bite again and what happens next time? I guess the issue should be that any bite should not be acceptible whether minor or not.

Help me out here, I don't want to put my friend down but is there anything else I can do or any other explanation for his actions?

Thanks
Bob


----------



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I don't have much experience with older dogs, but have you had his thyroid looked at? His eyes?
Usually, when a dog develops aggression like this at an older age, it's a medical issue. If he's losing his eye sight it could cause him to attack things he can't see clearly. Abnormal thyroid levels can also cause aggression.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

Hi
Thank you I forgot to say they did screen for thyroid in the blood tests and there is a lesion on the left eye, but no damage to the eye itself. There are no cataracts or any other clouding of the eyes.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

Justice is 103lbs and not deemed overweight by vet's for his size.


----------



## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

I am not an expert but I would explore all possible causes (medical exams, thyroid check, etc) to find out whether this is a medical issue or not. Also, I would not allow him to be off leash or around non family people at this time until this issue has been figured out. At this point he is unpredictable and you would not want to take another chance of somebody getting hurt even worse. Once the root cause has been found, this may be an easy fix by administering meds, supplements, etc. Wishing you success in figuring out what is going on. Personally, I would not put him down unless his aggression becomes uncontrollable to the point where it can't be corrected through medical, supplemental or training means.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Thyroid and failing eyesight pop out to me as possible causes on reading that.

Don't run just a T4, that can be misleading. Run a full thyroid panel.

Was he vaccinated recently? My dog just underwent a series of truly _bizarre_ "episodic" issues of family/friend-directed aggression (along with other symptoms) for about 60-70 days following a rabies shot. Two separate blood tests, a urinalysis, and a thyroid panel revealed nothing. He also attempted to bite and did bite once - just lightly breaking the skin. He was capable of doing a lot more damage than what he did.

I don't think you should give up on him. If need be, enforce a muzzle/leash rule, and enforce your rules more strictly. Give him consistency. Don't exercise him in the heat (that will make a dog cranky and act out of character I'd think).


----------



## Mom2Shaman (Jun 17, 2011)

We had a quick-to-react female aussie. Real pistol. As she aged she started losing eyesight and had chronic arthritic pain. She became out of control and quick to bite me (punctures and then withdraw rather than flat out maul), the other dog (tooth through roof of mouth), cat (almost killed her but she recovered). We had to make the decision at 10 to put her down. I did not try maintenance pain meds because we could see there had been a progressive escalation in her behavior esp. with the eyesight degneration. 

If I were you, in my opinion, having had to evaluate this situation myself, I would get him on a maintence pain med regimen (like small amount of Tramdol, Rimadyl, etc.). Then I would give him a chance on leash, not allowing contact, but allowing reaction tendency to be seen. Would he growl or move towards a person on leash? Don't give him the chance to have physical contact but demonstrate if a pain situation could have been a trigger or if this is a continued tendency. Don't hold your breath and send signals when out walking, but certainly keep the shorter leash and make sure there is not a chance to make physical contact during the testing phase. My husband and I were able to accomodate our girl for the 5 years we had her by a tight leash, watchfulness when out, walking in more remote settings, crating with visitors. It's a committment, but she had a happy life until the chronic pain and loss of vision clearly were too much for her to cope with. 

Perhaps some brush up training will also help out reestablish dominance rules. Perhaps there was something you did not notice that caused him to re-think his pack position. Perhaps getting back to a more strict training mode would de-mote him to a more submissive role.

I think if I were you I would not be too quick to react, but I would truly give enough time to evaluate factors before choosing euthanasia. You want to make sure this is a trend rather than a temporary thing. However, since it HAS happened ever, you really should start accomodation procedures like no off-leash play, no allowing petting, etc. 

I live in California, lawsuit capital of the world. I actually don't want my dogs too friendly and don't want people petting and such. I want my dogs not to hate people, but I would rather the dogs not want to interact and the people not want to interact. Less chance of error if everyone minds their own business. 

My post is long, but I would say give yourself time to evaluate and investigate while not giving the dog a chance to make physical contact again. If there are any signs that your family members or frequent known guests are in danger, then you must make that decision for the safety of all. Strangers on walks or strangers into the house can be easily accomodated for.


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Another suggestion for full thyroid panel and eye exam. I would also investigate the pain going on in his back end more. The heat and being over tired can be contributing to his crankiness especially if he is in pain in his hind end and was being over exercised. Some dogs don't want others around them when they are in pain because they are vulnerable.

If all this truly is out of character for him then I would rule out any physical reason for it before giving up on my companion of 7 years. Is he on any supplements for his hips or joints?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with all the above suggestions AND I would be much more vigilant with him , expect the unexpected , take all precautions to not have him in a situation where he will react..

No I would not put him down at this point, I would manage manage manage, don't take his good behavior for granted until you can get an idea of whats going on with him


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

someone asked about vaccinations, well how about tick/flea prevention?? Sometimes chemicals in the body can cause weird things, as well I know how hot it is and would also suggest the extra heat being an issue. He might also not hear as well and since he isn't seeing as well is surprised by these people when he doesn't expect them.. And your friend was carrying a big threatening weapon in the rake, perhaps he is more tired, perhaps neither seeing nor hearing as well, and in a different than usual environment, with 'intruders' and he is trying to protect and using teeth as he is feeling less secure in his abilities. 

I would also run detailed thyroid and would put him on some pain meds if he seems sore. I would also keep him on leash but don't use a tight lead, that is sending him messages, keep it loose and when walking toward someone speak up and greet them, nice day, hot weather, whatever, then you have told him someone is coming and that they are OK. Good luck


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree with pretty much everyone else, Eye problems and maybe hearing too really pop out at me, the one guy was carring tools, and from what I read most of this happened at the cottage where he's not at most of the time, I'd also look more closely into the pain in his paw. 
Don't give him any chance to bite anyone else, no off leash time when he's out of his yard or when someone comes by. 
Does this only happen when you walk him or when your wife does too? 
I had a border collie that got more aggressive as he aged eye sight and arthritis played a big part in it, he was trying to protect us but with the failing eye sight he was unsure of who was friend or foe. We just went out of our way to keep him from having the chance to bite anyone, of course it would of been different if he had turned on us or if we had had small children around at the time, those factors change everything.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

I thank you all for your advise/opinions. Most of it seems to be eyes and thyroid, I think that will be the direction I go in first. He had his shots in December of 2010, he is not on a flea medicine as he does not have then nor has he ever. I am going to go back to the vet's and speak to her and before I do read up on thyroid. From the little I read last night, he does have "seasonal" itches/biting, whining (he's a suck anyway) which if I remember are some of the symptoms.

Justice is a beautiful, loving boy and has been the smartest GSD with the largest vocabulary we have ever had. Justice notice airplanes and birds none of the other boys have bothered to look. I don't WANT to give him up but wondered what others thought.

I think besides checking with the vet again, he will be closely watched. Like I mentioned when I walk him and we meet people I am the barrier between Justice and the passing people. I will be paying more attention to his body language and his bark/growl and if detected be corrected immediately. Justice won't be allowed to go to the dog park until this is resolved. Thank you, you have made me feel better.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

The incidents happened with just me, I am the major caregiver if you will, I spend the most time with him. When he came home as a pup I spent time with him in the back yard before bringing him into the house. In our house his pecking order is me(I am the only one he plays rough with) then my wife, my youngest then my oldest daughter (when they are home). The first incident happened when leashed on a walk near our home and the other two at the lake one on-leash one off.

Justice has never had issued with food, when he was a pup he was trained that food could be taken from his bowl or his favourite toy or bones. I describe him as having a soft mouth, he usually won't take food from your hand. His cookies/treats most often have to be dropped to the ground before he will take them. With Justice in training I tried something new, I have tried to not raise my voice to him unless like the growl or bite he does get scolded, as a heard it only adds to the confusion. I seem to get as much or more action from him with a low voice as I ever did with a yell. We do the same in the house, when he wants a treat/toy he can't yell/bark loud at me for the treat/toy, he has to and does bark softly before getting the treat/toy. 

He has been on agility courses with my daughter with other dogs and no problem. I forgot he has been on glucosimine for the last year daily as we noticed he sometimes drags his left rear paw and we saw this in our last male in later stages of his life and he was 14 when we let him go.

Like I said Justice has been the best male we have had and was described by one of his evaluators/trainers as a thinker, thinking before he does things, so this behaviour is totally out of his personality. The only other thing I can think of about him is he was best described as a flop ears GSD. As a pup his ears came up early stayed for about 6wks and went down. I taped them and of course he pulled that tape. I noticed when alert the ears came up but stayed down when not concerned about protection. I was not/am not concerned as that too is part of his personality not shyness or fear.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

Just an update. Justice has rested up these last few days. Going back to vet to check further into thyroid and pain issues. I have a bunch of questions for the vet.

Bob


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

dear bob, there is an alternative to ending your boy's life and that is managing and controlling his environment. there is obviously something going on, keep looking and questioning the vet(s), and while you're doing that do not give him the opportunity to misbehave again (leash, muzzle, crate, timing, etc).

dogs have no other way of telling us when something's wrong sometimes, except to misbehave. he is telling you something's wrong, and i think even considering euth is very premature at this point. take care, welcome to the board, lots of knowledge and good advice here (along with the occasional troublemaker, lolol...).


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sometimes a brain tumor can cause sudden aggressive episodes that pop up out of nowhere and are totally out of character for the dog. I am not sure how they can test for this, but I'd bring it up to the vet.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

Spoke to his vet for about 15 minutes and she did do the thyroid panel and it came back normal. He is at this point being treated for arthritic pain, he is due for his normal visit in a week or so and they will x-ray his hips for displacia. He seems fine, rested and doing well. I will be doing more to expect the unexpected from him in the coming days and hope for the best. My last two GSDs had hips show up about 7 and he just turned 7. Thanks again, I know if anyone knows anything it will come from this board.
Bob


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Bob - Is there a behavorist in your area? Could you take him to them for an evaluation? If it's medical (pain related) they can help you work through it. If it's something else, they'll be able to assist you with that as well. 

This is a tough time, I'm sure. But you'll want to make sure you've tried everything you could for the boy who has given you all he could.


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

That will be the next step, as far as I am concerned we will do whatever it takes for Justice.
Bob


----------



## Justice (May 28, 2006)

Just an Update
We returned to the scene of the crime this weekend, so to speak. We took him back to the cottage. Justice had sort of a rocky start, but we were prepared for it. People came into the cottage next door(rental), he was with me, with his hilti on. They came up to us and he did bark, was corrected and he did settle. He was not allowed on the beach when there were people on it nor in the water when people were there, he did not like that. At our cottage we have a lower deck that goes 1/2 way around the cottage and an upper deck in front. He spent most of his time on the upper deck and he barked at the odd dog and when the people next door came up from the beach, was corrected and did settle.

His play periods were shortened, and his play was at the back as it was another hot weekend. Last night you could tell he was sore(being treated for arthritis), we sleep upstairs and he spent the night downstairs on his favorite couch. We did take him for a walk last night, we ran into a few people and dogs and he could have cared less. What I was impressed with, was this morning, I was taking him out to relieve himself and we saw a squirrel, he growled, I corrected and he sat and watched the squirrel run off. He got a lot of praise from me and a couple doggie treats. 

I think in addition to the added discipline and checking his hips I am going to get in touch with someone who does behaviour work. I am wondering if he is barking because of territorial issues. Like I mentioned he was socialized a lot up to last weekends incident. When he is walking no problems seen so far, when he was playing in the water no problems, but as people come on the property at the lake he barks. The bite and the lunge was WAY out of character. When at home he does bark if someone comes too close to the fence, but that is his job at home. I would call the weekend a slight improvement. I am going to walk him again this week at home and see what happens.
Bob


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Sounds as though you're on top of the situation and hopefully a behaviorist will be some help. Is he a good candidate for chiropractic/massage therapy?


----------

