# Mixing Lines



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

As a spin off from the other thread, "Bloodlines and the split"

There were some generalizations made about the different lines (and some others that I have read in different threads)

- ASL- Extreme structure, weak nerves, lack of aggression and working ability
- GSL- Sometimes weak nerves, lack of aggression 
- WL- Poor confirmation, too much drive, washed out pigmentation

Now I am not saying that I agree or disagree, this list is just for sake of discussion starter.

I would like to know if it is even possible genetically to fix these issues in the lines by mixing them with others?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I would say yes, but I am not all in the know for lines. But I believ Elizabeth's boy, Stark, is a mixture of working lines and show lines(WGSL x Working(not sure what kind of line) lines). He is beautiful in structure and seems like an awesome dog. 

So I think its possible that mixing lines can be done, if the breeder knows what he/she is doing and doing it right.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

If I am not mistaken, Elisabeth's Stark is a combination of all lines. 1/4 West German show line and 1/4 American show line through his dam, and 1/4 DDR and 1/4 West German through his sire (although I am making the assumption here that the Salztablick dog is WGR). Stark sounds like a very nicely balanced dog, not extreme in any way.

Amy, I am wondering... are you looking for opinions, or for facts? If you are looking for facts and information from breeders on whether or not it IS possible genetically, I should keep my mouth shut! 

But if you are looking for opinions, I wanted to say that I actually believe refusing to mix lines is and has been detrimental to the breed. Many of the best show lines out there (in my own opinion, of course) are a mix of American and German show lines. And Daphne's Jag is part DDR and a good looking German Shepherd. 

At this point, however, I don't necessarily think mixing lines is the solution. I would prefer breeders to choose dogs not for their lines (show lines vs. working lines, not specific lineage/pedigree) but for what the dog itself would bring, if that makes sense. I don't want to see a breeder choose a show line stud for a working line bitch because that bitch in question is over the top in drive - I would prefer the breeder to look for the right stud to breed to for balance, but be open to show lines as well. Otherwise, I would feel that all we would succeed in is producing dogs that would be either too much or not enough for many of those involved in the breed. 

I am all for balance, but I don't want to compromise on other important aspects of the breed, either.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Genetics and opinions both. 

The part of the thread that prompted me to think "spin off" was these two comments.



trudy said:


> ...Also while on my rant I personally know of several ASL who are now adding in the GSL in their breeding, trying to bring back some brain and stability of temperment, and these breeders are finding the non-roach back ones with the best temperment they can. Also the specialty ring is becoming less extreme, and some judges are actually stressing the temperment be at least somewhat stable. It will take time but I believe the breed may be going back toward the middle ground.
> 
> I also think WL should strive to look less like Mal's and more like GS, I see too many square bodies and the quickness of Mal's. Let's all strive to educate and not trash the other side. First lets breed to temperment, then health, then looks, If all sides did this we would have 1 breed very similar in time.





cliffson1 said:


> ...if you breed by phenotype(that's breeding look alike to look alike to maintain a type or trait) or geneotype(that's breeding same genetic dogs to maintain a type or trait), then you willrun out of dogs to breed to KEEP the nerve component first in the breed. So if you are German showline of today then you would have to go to a sable or black or bi-color to get the nerve strength up to a level of first importance. You see WGSL have been trying to improve temperament by phenotype; that is breeding the best tempered dog that is still black and red to improve temperament. Won't happen; because this Black and red dog of good temperament, is STILL the immediate cousin (and thus genetically)of the black and red dogs who you are trying to improve on temperamentally. They just can't give up that black and red....argh!!!(Ever hear me talk about ego and money killing the breed). So every year at the Seiger show, the protection part where you can see a little of nerve strength is always the same, much less see dramatic improvement. The same with ASL, they are bringing in WGSL to improve temperament, (you don't think they are going to WGSL to lessen sidegait do you???). Nevertheless, the unintended consequence of this is a more moderate dog that people are saying the ASL are moving towards. BUT they couldn't do it without going to dogs that are Lance and Sundance free. (Is this starting to make sense)??...Cliff


It sounds like Cliff is saying that it is not genetically possible, yet people are still trying.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't know, I think what Cliff is trying to say, in his example, is that many show line breeders are trying to improve temperament and nerves by breeding not to what is the best, but what is the best within those same lines because they are unwilling to sacrifice type, uniformity, and the other traits they value that seems restricted to those lines. But because the two dogs being bred are so closely related, an overall improvement in nerves among those lines cannot be achieved.

That example, if I am reading it right, is different from a German Shepherd breeder breeding a working line to a show line, or breeding a German show line to an American show line for the sake of producing more balanced overall dogs. It is more a matter of people not trying and being more motivated by a uniformity in type and what they have winning now, than it being genetically impossible. BUT I am referring to that post only (have not read the rest of the thread) and am more likely wrong than right. Just saying how I perceived it. 

Also, I think that while it is possible to "fix" high prey drive or extreme angulation, I wonder... at what cost? If breeders focused on breeding out high drive or extreme angulation or roached backs as a sole (or at least highly influential) purpose in their operation, we would, as said before, lose other components to the breed that may be more important than a lack of a slight roach or a relatively high prey drive. 

I guess my thoughts are - yes, it's possible, but it will likely not be an improvement over the state of the breed now, either. Specifically working to fix those problems through selective breeding to outside lines will not result in a better example of the breed and instead lead to new problems within GSDs as a whole. I think the problems you listed for each of the lines can be bred out eventually, but the results aren't going to be worth it because in the big picture, there is just much more to improving the breed than those traits. While every breeding should aim to pull away from the extremes and breed towards the total German Shepherd, fixing the problems listed should not be prioritized over other goals.

Sorry, just rambling here. Not even sure if that makes sense to me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Rei,
You first paragraph is exactly what I am saying in terms of what the WGSL people are trying to do. They are bottlenecked genetically and they can't improve things by going to the same genetic dogs regardless of the outward show of temperament(phenotype).
What the American breeders that are going to WGSL dogs are doing is a better answer, because the genes are different and the jump in drives and nerve is not too dramatic. But if these breeders want to really improve on the nerve component, they would also mix in some DDR lines which are often very nice conformationally and better nerve than WGSL, yet less drive than West workinglines.
As for breeding to eliminate angulation or hyper drive, I don't think that is the best approach to get to the middle, though in all of these solutions a certain uniformity has to be sacrificed. The GS is not a uniform dog. It is made up of too manydogs. Doc has written about this in the past and I agree with him wholeheartedly.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> The GS is not a uniform dog. It is made up of too manydogs. Doc has written about this in the past and I agree with him wholeheartedly.


Should it be? To what extent is this because people are breeding "incorrect" GSDs?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I only uniformity I seek is in temperament. I want functional structure but I have seen many different types of German Shepherds that were very functional. That's just me.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think the DDR dogs would possibly be a good fit with the ASLs for the reasons Cliff mentions. If I were a breeder, I would not really be attracted to the WGSLs as an addition to the Am conformation dog. But it certainly is greatly widening that genetic component when brought in.

When a person looks at the bottlenecks and large backmassing of genetics in the showlines, it looks like there really is very little place to go within the lines. Sure, a person can try to find the best within them and work on improvements. But it seems like it might be difficult to create consistency because of the genetics carried along that keep showing up in production.

It at times looks like some lines are very much the result of the genetics of a few dogs and that is pretty narrow. The Palme and the Lance are hard to avoid and then the backmassing on them gets really big.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this was my ddr sire (zorro lines) x american show line (dolmar) male, if I could have cloned him I would have, he was the perfect all around dog , I would buy another in a minute if I could find one .


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I think the splits are good for genetic diversity. If a widespread problem were to pop up in one type, you have outcross options that are still considered the same breed. I don't think people who haven't been involved in the lower number breeds realize how good of a thing that is.

I don't ever see a day of a uniform GSD and I don't think that is really important. It seems most of the more popular breeds have splits. If nothing else there is a split between pet and show bred dogs in most of the popular breeds. In some there are working, show, pet and performance lines.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As long as the splits aren't examples of massive backmassing. Splits like DDR and Czech dogs have good structure and good temperament, without too much backmassing, the working lines are starting to saturate on Fero and Troll especially in sport world and need the influx of DDR and Czech dogs. The Scandinavian countries Sweden in particular have done an excellent job of mixing the lines and maintaining high working integrity in their dogs. If you examine their pedigrees you will often find German working, DDR, Czech, WGSL usually through Mutz vd Peltzerferm , and they have been dong this for 40 years. No genetic bottleneck and their dogs are very much like dogs of earlier times and boy do they work good.
The problem with the two SL in terms of mixing is it is difficult to mix a ASL with the harder workinglines because the nerves of the progeny will not support the drives/toughness. This is why so many working people say never do it. Now you can go ASL to WGSL, though some WGSL dogs have awesome drives. But when you have softer drives you want sound nerves like the DDR dogs, THEN you can breed to anything. But, alas the DDR and Czech dogs now need to outcross or they will end up like others with extensive backmassing. Many of the Western working lines with extensive backmassing on Troll, Fero are already known as "sport" dogs. Same direction of too much of one thing as Anne has written about on many occasions.
So in the end, the splits should always be working AWAY from themselves to stay strong,IMO.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Samba said:


> I think the DDR dogs would possibly be a good fit with the ASLs for the reasons Cliff mentions. If I were a breeder, I would not really be attracted to the WGSLs as an addition to the Am conformation dog. But it certainly is greatly widening that genetic component when brought in.


What about West German Working Lines?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My young dog is a cross between DDR and ASL. He is an awesome dog. Strong nerves, good drives, nice structure. He is already working a strong retrieve -- dog pans, tennis shoes, socks, as well as his dumbell. His heeling is flashy and precise. He also had 2 points toward his AKC championship. I would do another such breeding in a heartbeat.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My question is, how do you get a breeding like Daphne got? When you study out the yang, work hard, and pick a potential stud dog, and then they say no because you don't have the right line? How do you improve upon that dog then?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Daphne,
Not surprised your dog has the whole package....wonder how I knew that click would work, I'm not the conformation hater people think I am
Jackie,
First, I have to ask you who are some of the people you are listening too???
Second, there are people who already have in their mind what they want to do and with what, even though the principle is flawed. (Like the WGSL people who want to improve temp for their protection routine at the Seiger show, yet want to use the same genepool to do it....and it hasn't been successful and it won't) Well, I think you want to have the typical winning extensive sidegaiting showdog AND have the type of temperament that you realize the breed should have. It is not only very difficult to do but even if you got this dog who do you breed him/her to. Another extensive sidegaiter that won't have the same strength of temperament, or to a more moderate dog with strong nerves(like Daphne's DDR) but lose some of that extensive sidegait you won't part with. Tough Decision...trust me. 
But Daphne's got it and has for years, and other are stuck in their personal wants not allowing them to get to where Daphne is. You have had some good advice given to you in the past...but if it conflicts with personal desires its not used Remember, its not what you like but what ought to be that grounds you breeding program.
Robin on this forum,also, has a gorgeous partial DDR female puppy that is also going to be quite successful in the showring. People like her and Daphne really have my respect as conformation breeders. Talk to them and I'm sure they can help.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> First, I have to ask you who are some of the people you are listening too???


In regards to? Or do you mean just in general?



> Well, I think you want to have the typical winning extensive sidegaiting showdog AND have the type of temperament that you realize the breed should have.


Do you actually mean ME, or is that a general "You"? I don't like "extensive/extreme" side gait. I don't like extremes and try to go for the "middle". I'd rather have strong nerves than extreme sidegait.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay Xeph,
What do you consider that pupy you have in terms of sidegait...I think you put some pics up of her gaiting.?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

IMO she's a very moderate bitch. Clean on both ends, gaits on her pads.

Many people compliment me on her front, but others want to see "More" reach and drive. I don't see how one could put much more in her without her going over done. She looks pretty from the side, especially when she goes nice and easy.

I do feel she's "loose" right now, and only time will tell if she'll tighten up. I like her much better now than I did at the 6-7 month mark.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> this was my ddr sire (zorro lines) x american show line (dolmar) male, if I could have cloned him I would have, he was the perfect all around dog , I would buy another in a minute if I could find one .


doesn't have anything to do with the subject but I LOVE his FEET!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jackie....Cool!!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I LIKE to show in the AKC ring. It's fun for me. While it's not entirely about winning, it's nice not to lose all the time. So I most definitely look at structure...but I look at temperament even harder.

I do feel there is a disconnect between both groups when describing the potential attributes of a litter that is on the way. Show line people often cite the structural aspects of the litter they're looking forward to, but mention nothing of drive, temperament, or nerve other than the generic "We expect good temperaments".

And many working line litters I read all about the courage, hardness, and balanced drives that are expected, but none of the structural improvements they expect aside from the generic "We expect good structure".


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> As long as the splits aren't examples of massive backmassing. Splits like DDR and Czech dogs have good structure and good temperament, without too much backmassing, the working lines are starting to saturate on Fero and Troll especially in sport world and need the influx of DDR and Czech dogs. The Scandinavian countries Sweden in particular have done an excellent job of mixing the lines and maintaining high working integrity in their dogs. If you examine their pedigrees you will often find German working, DDR, Czech, WGSL usually through Mutz vd Peltzerferm , and they have been dong this for 40 years. No genetic bottleneck and their dogs are very much like dogs of earlier times and boy do they work good.
> The problem with the two SL in terms of mixing is it is difficult to mix a ASL with the harder workinglines because the nerves of the progeny will not support the drives/toughness. This is why so many working people say never do it. Now you can go ASL to WGSL, though some WGSL dogs have awesome drives. But when you have softer drives you want sound nerves like the DDR dogs, THEN you can breed to anything. But, alas the DDR and Czech dogs now need to outcross or they will end up like others with extensive backmassing. Many of the Western working lines with extensive backmassing on Troll, Fero are already known as "sport" dogs. Same direction of too much of one thing as Anne has written about on many occasions.
> So in the end, the splits should always be working AWAY from themselves to stay strong,IMO.


Thank you for taking the time to inform us of these things--I've always wondered why SL and WL were not considered a desirable mix. Your posts have been giving my printer a workout!

I would be really interested to learn just how the lines are successfully mixed in the Scandinavian countries, i.e. just how the breeders produce "high working integrity" and avoid inbreeding, or what you call "backmassing," which I assume is too much linebreeding on the same bloodlines. Is there just a harmonious cooperation among the breeders there, all with the same goals, or is there some sort of centralized breed authority that has a lot of influence on long term planning of breedings over many generations?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wilhoit,
The answer to your question about the Scandinavian (sp), countries breeding is simple. I have said this time and time again, but many don't realize it. There wasn't always this severe backmassing in the breed, and before this occurred the conformation dogs were the working dogs were the seeing-eye dogs were the police dogs. Even in America,
So ,with that backdrop as a breeder you could go to the dog that best improved your deficits without worrying about injecting generations of weak temperament or weak nerves or poor structure. Sweden has always been a country that has been in forefront of hip improvement, policework, and good structure. They really are one of the best models of the breed staying strong in both structure and temperament.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Cliff, Daphne or others,

I have seen several DDR/ASL crosses, and they were nice dogs. However, I would be concerned about getting the DDR suspicion/sharpness mixed with weaker nerves.

Do you consider that a possible problem? If so, what might you look for in a breeding to avoid it?


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Is there any kind of rule of thumb that would identify mathematically the percentage of common ancestry that starts to look worrisome from the point of view of deleterious backmassing? How far back and how many (if any) common ancestors? Hopefully, Cliff might answer this, too. I am squeamish about the thought of any kind of inbreeding, but am ready to stand corrected. I also realize there is a limited number of GSD "families" from whom to draw on as breeding stock.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Is there any kind of rule of thumb that would identify mathematically the percentage of common ancestry that starts to look worrisome from the point of view of deleterious backmassing?


You mean the Coefficient of inbreeding? Because there are calculators for that.


> I am squeamish about the thought of any kind of inbreeding, but am ready to stand corrected.


Too much inbreeding and linebreeding isn't a good thing (as is seen), but it is, as far as I've been taught, a good tool to use for solidifying traits that you want (one must also be aware that it does not automatically suppress bad traits, and can express them as readily as good traits).


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

gagsd said:


> Cliff, Daphne or others,
> 
> I have seen several DDR/ASL crosses, and they were nice dogs. However, I would be concerned about getting the DDR suspicion/sharpness mixed with weaker nerves.
> 
> Do you consider that a possible problem? If so, what might you look for in a breeding to avoid it?


My DDR/ASL cross is 4th generation of my bloodline, so I was very aware of the strengths and weakness of it. I started with an ASL line that was sound of mind already, so I didn't really have a fear of weak nerves from this breeding. Mentally Jag reiminds me very much of his sire which was my Tag -- quick to learn, good focus for a puppy, handler sensitive. Structurally he riminds me of siblings of dogs back in his pedigree -- tall dog, short of back, steep croup, large head.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Gagsd, There is no such magic as avoiding it. If one of the lines has weak nerves as genetic part, then you are going to incur a certain amount of that in the offspring. You see some of the pups will have the stronger nerve from the DDR lines, yet some will have the weaker nerve from the other side. Fortunately, the DDR dogs of today donot have the level of sharpness that they have had in the past. You see there are no perfect answers, but you have to strive back to the middle. 
Dogs with heavy backmassing have 10 to 15 generations on breeding from the same source. It takes time to correct something that is derived from this practice. 
But here is what you will see from people afflicted with say the conformation bug. They take a dog that has less then stellar nerve(c'mom that's not bashing:apple, which may also have extreme stucture necessary for showring, they breed to a DDR or WGSL dog to improve the nerve strength, take the besy puppy in terms of nerve strength and structure, and then do what????
Go back to the same source of backmassing. Why??? Here you are trying to improve something that has deteriorated over 30 years and you think that one breeding to good nerve will improve this???
Anyway, to specifically respond to your query, the breeder has to take the best of the DDR/ASL breeding and continue to breed to strong genetic nerve for 4 or 5 generations, then you will have consistency in nerve strength to handle the occaisional sharpness. You don't want to breed out the sharpness as it is part of the breed and always has been. You have to increase the nerve strength to handle the sharpness. You can't improve nerve strength without some sharpness/aggression increase unless you breed to Golden Retreivers. (I'm being funny but you get my point). There is place for sharpness in the breed with good nerve, there is NO place for weak nerves if it can be avoided. 
Furthermore, many DDR dogs have, EXCELLENT structure per the German Shepherd illustrated standard....what's wrong with that?????
Hope this helps.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wilhoit, I agree with Jackie on both counts. COI measures amount of inbreeding. Also, a certain amount of line/inbreeding is often used to set a type desired. But this is usually once and maybe in rare casestwo generations in a row. Certainly not 10 generations as some dogs are.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Wilhoit, I agree with Jackie on both counts. COI measures amount of inbreeding.


w00t!!! I can apply knowledge! 



> But this is usually once and maybe in rare casestwo generations in a row. Certainly not 10 generations as some dogs are.


I agree with this. There's one bitch in particular that I've seen that has a TREMENDOUS amount of line breeding and inbreeding.

Cliff, would you mind if I sent you a PM?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jackie, no problem.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Cliff, do you think there is an acceptable amount of percentage of inbreeding?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jackie, 
I don't look at things as a quantitative amount of acceptable inbreeding.
What I do is put in my mind a dog like say Bernd v Lierberg, or say Cobert's Reno. These dogs were sound of mind and body. I look at my dog or the mating I'm doing and try to decide what is the most out of whack and how do I get there. Things I would inbreed on; are dogs with a history of great hip production and sound nerves or temperament.(all in one dog)....I would never never never never inbreed on a soft dog, or weak nerved dog I don't care if their body looked like Beyonce. Nerve is hardest thing to gain and easiest to lose. To intensify weak nerves for structural reasons is the recipe of fools,IMO. Linebreeding or inbreeding for me is a tool to bring something into balance(read that again). Inbreeding can only be done,IMO, with near perfect dogs, and then it would only be once.
Take sidegait for example...many people think that Lance introduced the extreme gait to the American scene. Not true...line/inbreeding on him certainly catapulted it to prominence. But there were lines like the Hessian lines(Hey Doc; that's a blast from the past) that had a fabulous sidegait,especially Baldue and Quella. The Hessian lines were known for movement. 
But too much of anything is toxic, so just used the standard as a way of gauging if you are veering off course.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> I would never never never never inbreed on a soft dog, or weak nerved dog I don't care if their body looked like Beyonce


You mean someone would do this?? 


A yup.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Wilhoit said:


> Is there any kind of rule of thumb that would identify mathematically the percentage of common ancestry that starts to look worrisome from the point of view of deleterious backmassing? How far back and how many (if any) common ancestors? Hopefully, Cliff might answer this, too. I am squeamish about the thought of any kind of inbreeding, but am ready to stand corrected. I also realize there is a limited number of GSD "families" from whom to draw on as breeding stock.


 This is about Poodles but may help answer some of your questions: Standard Poodle

Purebred dogs by nature have some inbreeding/linebreeidng going on. It becomes a serious issue when it effects the entire population of the breed, leaving no outcross possibilities within the breed. As it is, the poulations of the splits in GSDs can lack diversity but there is always the possibility of outcrossing to a different type because they are all still considered GSDs. If the breed were to split into German Shepherds and American Shepherds, it would poorly affect the genetic diversity of both. In some breeds, there are no splits and often, very little diversity throughout the entire breed. With these breeds, genetic problems become widespread and impossible to breed away from because "normal" genes for the problem no longer exist in the population.


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

I'd imagine great things could be achieved with a methodical approach and multiple generations of breeding, it's an interesting idea

If it all had to be achieved in one generation I would say a working line crossed with an an American showline might put you in the ballpark of the desired result


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Glad this old post came up again. I had just posted a new thread yesterday asking this same question. 

Just wondering, since it's been 5 years. Has this cross breeding become more acceptable? If so, are there any consistent results or is it still too soon to tell?

If there are more recent threads, can you refer me by title? They're a little hard to find. Thanks


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Glad this old post came up again. I had just posted a new thread yesterday asking this same question.
> 
> Just wondering, since it's been 5 years. Has this cross breeding become more acceptable? If so, are there any consistent results or is it still too soon to tell?
> 
> If there are more recent threads, can you refer me by title? They're a little hard to find. Thanks


We shouldn't expect a stabilized result F1 . . or at least until F4. Eventually gene pools degrade, it's inevitable, especially when such effort has been made to get to a particular trait. Luckily the German Shepherd's various lines offer a golden parachute of sorts that can be used to reinvigorate the breed.This will be frowned upon by purists but it's inevitable, all of these dogs share common ancestry and there are great traits within each of these lines.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I agree, F4 will be a start to proving the new "line". But that's not that long with dog gen's. Given the fact that 90% or better of GSD owners are NOT seeking a dog that is at the extreme level of a particular competition are the norm, there's a huge opportunity for breeders. 

With the collapse of many lines inevitable due to lack of out crossing, breeders would not only be doing the breed a favor but also start to provide dogs that the majority of people want to see come back. Dual purpose, healthy, all around dogs.

Nobody condones the reason for creating the DDR line. However, it shows how quickly this breed can be altered to correct problems (health) and turn it around and it has proven it will breed true. 

Let the "specialty types" continue for those that require it for their specific activities. But don't condemn this breed coming back to a dog that the majority of owners would prefer.....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I agree, F4 will be a start to proving the new "line". But that's not that long with dog gen's. Given the fact that 90% or better of GSD owners are NOT seeking a dog that is at the extreme level of a particular competition are the norm, there's a huge opportunity for breeders.
> 
> With the collapse of many lines inevitable due to lack of out crossing, breeders would not only be doing the breed a favor but also start to provide dogs that the majority of people want to see come back. Dual purpose, healthy, all around dogs.
> 
> ...


Lol what? The DDR line shows how quickly health problems can be corrected? I'd love to see the statistical data on that statement.

So by the majority of people you mean...pet owners? People that don't want a higher drive dog, or the people that see extreme angles I the back end and scream, "HIP DYSPLASIA!" because they don't know any better and haven't taken the time to do any research on why the dogs are like they are?

The truth is...and it hurts a lot of people...but the minority of owners/breeders have kept this breed true to its original form. Many people just think they know what the "original" GSD was like; some sort of laid back, chill at home, don't need any training, but can be a police dog tomorrow dog...and don't forget the straight back, but in truth, the majority have no idea. They like the look, they like the idea of a GSD, but that's about it. Most people, don't understand what kind of drive and dog it takes to do actual work, they still believe ol' Spot sitting in the corner of their living room could've been a protection dog if they would've just trained him because he barks at the kids riding their bikes down the street.

The reason most don't mix lines? You're developing a dog that more than likely won't perform to a high level in either venue which is meant to preserve the breed. There are a lot of reasons for this, if you're a pessimist, it's mostly due to money, if you're an optimist, you'd like to believe that when a dog shows that it's a great working dog, the last thing you want to do is mix it with a sub-par working dog just to get some sort of what people like to call "balanced" look. If you have the Sieger show winning dog, why would you breed it to a working dog that doesn't have anywhere near the structure or look that the shows call for...you're basically guaranteeing that the progeny won't be able to have any success in shows.

As someone that's followed a few breeders that mix...I've noticed most, if not all, dogs go to pet homes. Serious GSD stay away because at the end of the day...the dogs are a huge risk. If I want to win conformation shows with a dog...I know those dogs won't win it. If my goal is the USCA Nationals, it's highly unlikely those dogs will get there as well.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is interesting that when people talk about mixing lines they only think of mixing working with show. The working people have been mixing lines for awhile. Look at most of the current "Czech" dogs. People have been using the old DDR lines for ages. Heck, the Czech dog I am breeding Deja to is a mix of WGWL, Czech, some DDR and a little WGSL (I am not going to hold that against him, LOL).


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I guess it's just a strange hang up some people have Lisa. I'm German and Czech. My pup is German, Hungarian, Swiss & American. I've looked a bit at the Hungarian standards and what they are doing with their dogs. And of course the German dogs. I'll be looking at the Swiss next. I suspect they will be similar. It's interesting to have a dog of many nations - would make a fabulous vacation package..lol

My thoughts and comments are focused on the future, not the present. Genetic selection, DNA splicing aided by a few super computers are all it will take to create the best of the best (whatever that will look like and have the ability to do). Down the road a bit, I hope I'm still around to see it. But I bet it won't be a one trick pony.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The "majority" want a pet . There are no shortage of those nor will there ever be.


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