# help is this breeder legit?



## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

Presley German Shepherds - Home

The pedigrees don't look bad and the advertised price is cheaper than some of the highly recommended breeders.


Anyone have any input or experience with them?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

There's a reason the dogs are cheap. I wouldn't touch this breeder with a 10 foot pole. Only 2 dogs have hips tested, and it's just a random mishmash of West german show lines and working lines. 

I also avoid ANY breeder that states "we're breeding for the best pet". The german shepherd was never meant to be a watered down, soft pet. They're a working breed. And my working dog makes an AMAZING pet but that's because I love him for what he is and give him the training and exercise and working stimulation he needs.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

She also doesn't cover mild hip dysplasia because it "tends to cause no problems"? Are you kidding me? Tell that to my 7 year old boy that has mild unilateral dysplasia, arthritic build up, muscle wasting, and slight hind end limping.

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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There are plenty of west German show line kennels that are well respected and breed dogs with health certifications, titles, etc. I would recommend Team Huerta Hof in your area.


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

As Anubis pointed out, my first thought was most of the dogs are not hip/elbow tested. Having a dog (rescue dog) just diagnosed with HD, I'd run far away from this breeder. It is not fun seeing how much pain HD causes.


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

It seems like the dogs prior to her ownership had titles and testing. 
Assuming they were line breed doesn't that guarantee similar health in the pupps?
If they have bad hips by Beeing bred young doesn't that not count as a genetic flaw?

Sorry like I said I'm a newbie. I'm not trying to argue for this particular breeder, I just want to know the thought process you all have .


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Even the best breeders will produce dogs with hip dysplasia. Nothing is a guarantee. By not testing her dogs she is greatly increasing the chance of producing dogs with dysplasia. It's not like DM - it's genetic, if parents are DM clear offspring are. My Berlin is DM clear through breeding. But hip dysplasia is not like that. There is NO reason not to test except for being lazy and cheap.

As well she doesn't even fully cover against hip dysplasia, so I'm guessing she's producing a fair number of mild dogs. To say "mild dysplasia causes no real harm" is just BS. 

Doesn't even touch the other ethics of her breeding program. There should be a goal and purpose behind your breeding. "Pet dogs" are not that legit purpose in my mind. You can go to the shelter and find a pet. If you're breeding a working breed you should be producing working pets. No titles, no clearances, nothing showing these dogs have drive or a stable temperament. 

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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

To add on to Anubis Star's comments above - The breeders who are really serious will watch for which mating combinations have the tendency to produce HD and avoid matching them. There is also the ZW score that breeders are using to help avoid HD in future litters. I'll post a link with a good explanation of it below. That's sort of the nutshell explanation. 

On this breeder, you mentioned the lower price. I'd suggest waiting a few months and saving up some more money so you can look at other breeders who are investing more in their dogs health, training and showing. 

Note: I'm posting this because the breeder has a good write up about hips and ZW scores:
Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - HD Zuchtwert Information





Fuzon said:


> It seems like the dogs prior to her ownership had titles and testing.
> *Assuming they were line breed doesn't that guarantee similar health in the pupps*?
> If they have bad hips by Beeing bred young doesn't that not count as a genetic flaw?
> 
> Sorry like I said I'm a newbie. I'm not trying to argue for this particular breeder, I just want to know the thought process you all have .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lots of dogs - so IMO - a pretty commercial kennel with a higher profit margin because they have a whole bunch of females and males and cross them wtihout having to go outside to pay for vet work and stud fees. Some breeders I know will be horrified to see pups from their dogs in this type of "program" (the " " indicates sarcasm BYW)...

Haven't had time to go through OFA to see if any are listed...but this is a fairly high volume commercial operation hitting all the marketing buttons....JMHO

Lee


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

>Assuming they were line breed doesn't that guarantee similar health in the pupps?

Actually line breeding can double up on bad genes as easily as good genes. Line breeding is only a positive thing if the breeder really knows what they are doing. This person has such a random bunch of pedigrees thrown together that I doubt she has a firm grasp of their genetics. They actually don't look like very solid pedigrees to me, and I'm not that knowledgeable.

>If they have bad hips by Beeing bred young doesn't that not count as a genetic flaw?

A reputable breeder stands behind their dogs, period. Making excuses for why hip dysplasia may occur is something you should consider a red flag. Because hip dysplasia is polygenic, it is not enough that one or three dogs in a pedigree were screened. The genes can still be passed down. Two OFA Good parents can produce dysplastic dogs if the rest of the dogs in the pedigree aren't sound.

It is also a red flag that she brags about her dogs being bred to police K-9s. Most units would not allow their dogs to be bred for profit. That's sketchy.

Unfortunately as breeders with less skill and experience learn that European bloodlines are desirable, they have begun importing dogs from Europe already titled to use as breeding machines. I think there are legitimate reasons to import stud dogs as well, but this person does not have clear goals or a grasp of why they are using certain bloodlines. I would avoid them.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Haven't had time to go through OFA to see if any are listed...but this is a fairly high volume commercial operation hitting all the marketing buttons....JMHO
> 
> Lee



She states very clearly under the dogs that hips and elbows are not known


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

am juggling work reports - so not in depth observation 

I saw some dogs and combos scanning through the males and females that I know are higher risk for poor hips.....and a female whose mother lines are truly NOT going to be real suitable for making easy to live wiht pets....

As Anubis Star says, she does not do hip/elbow certs and admits it...that tells you she is operating on a profit driven business...low overhead, low cost of sales...and pretty much high profit per pup...also - selling limited/non limited at different prices just is thumbing your nose at the ethics of using limited registration for protection of your pup's future and "betterment" of the breed...

Need a LACK OF RESPECT smiley here...!

Lee


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys

Kind of off topic is it better to have a 100%
DDR, Czech , Slovakian as opposed to mixed?

And if some one ever wanted to breed one of those dogs with me would it be ok
Only if they have sport titles and good hips or are the genes way to unstable.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Kaimeju said:


> It is also a red flag that she brags about her dogs being bred to police K-9s. Most units would not allow their dogs to be bred for profit. That's sketchy.
> .


So do you know this to be a fact? I know a number of solid breeders who use police K9s in their lines (and in parts of Europe as well) Nothing about this breeder; did not even bother with the site, but I don't believe that is sketchy at all.


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## Soundguy (Feb 20, 2013)

DDR, Czech, WGWL and WGSL all have different genetic temperament and drive traits. Different combinations of lines can produce variations of a wanted type of dog. You should decide exactly what type of GSD you want and what the intended use will be and then concentrate on breeders that tend to produce that type of dog. Hope that gives you some direction.


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

Well i Figured out i dont really like the boxy head types The DDR's seem to come out boxy short nosed./ but the few males that are DDR with longer noses seem stunning for me. I noticed that the czecks/slovakians have that head shape and they arent as stubby and low to the ground as the DDR. Im thinking a mix of the two? I need kind of a beginner GSD that can be non agressive towards vistors as i have many but can have the nerves to handle first tages of IPO and schutzhund as that seems to fascinate me, probably wont have enough time to go higher?

Also love the black sables, and i actually kind of like the plush coats.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Fuzon said:


> Well i Figured out i dont really like the boxy head types The DDR's seem to come out boxy short nosed./ but the few males that are DDR with longer noses seem stunning for me. I noticed that the czecks/slovakians have that head shape and they arent as stubby and low to the ground as the DDR. Im thinking a mix of the two? I need kind of a beginner GSD that can be non agressive towards vistors as i have many but can have the nerves to handle first tages of IPO and schutzhund as that seems to fascinate me, probably wont have enough time to go higher?
> 
> Also love the black sables, and i actually kind of like the plush coats.




Stubby and low to the ground?

First, you need to study up on temperament, and what type of dog fits your lifestyle. Then, you move on to looks. 

There are many types of GSD. 

Here is a good place to start:

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## Fuzon (Apr 24, 2014)

poor word choice but some DDR dogs ive seen have massive heads and seem to be bulkier and the legs dont look as long as some other lines. 

ive seen that page and a very balanced working line seems to fit the bill, want to interact and "train" my dog as much as i can. Previous dog was just a house dog that never quite learned anything past sit(to much degree my fault)


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## katierae92 (Jan 16, 2014)

*Here is my experience*

Okay, so I am actually getting a puppy from this breeder in about 3 and a half weeks from now. I just wanted to shed some light on my personal experience to date (and this will be my first GSD).

I have been talking with the daughter of the breeder, not Carol herself, even though I have met with Carol. Susan, is very lovely and has helped me through the whole process since I was interested last December. She has answered every question I have asked. What I was impressed with was when I visited them, she showed me every dog they had, did not skip one. I got to see temperaments of potential parents, and she suggested parents that would match my needs most. The place was clean, and the dogs looked very well taken care of. All dogs were very friendly to not only the breeder, but to my mom and I. And not overly friendly like a Golden, but were okay with interaction initiated by my part, etc. Also, I asked about health testing for the parents of my dog, and both have paper work (dad had a prelim of "Good" which she told me that it is not the "official" rating since he was younger than 2 years when he got it done, and mom also appeared to have "good" but the position was obscure so they will be re-doing them to send to get the OFA rating). 

I believe the breeder knows her dogs, though I myself have no experience with reading pedigrees and do not neccessarily understand how breeders should match dogs up. I am still learning though, so others please don't be too harsh on me if I sound ignorant about the issue (educate me!).

I have also reached out to owners that have her dogs, and everyone I have talked to has had a positive experience (but of course there may be negative ones, I just have not come across any personally). They love their dogs and seem to be healthy, happy dogs. Many people around the Memphis area have their dogs. She keeps up with people through Facebook, and she has kept me updated with my pup every step of the way (I like the Facebook page better, sometimes the website is a little slow to be updated).

I cannot say anything though about my experience actually living with one of her dogs because I do not have him yet. He is already here and paid for, so I am getting him regardless; and he is super cute too. 
I agree though that maybe looking into breeders who have titled their dogs and have clear health testing like for DM and elbow/hip HD would be a better option for what you may be looking for. This breeder though has what I want for my first GSD, and I am happy with the experience thus far.


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

OP.....I haven't looked at the website of said breeder but based on the fact that most of her dogs do not have some form of hip/elbow clearance (OFA,SV)(other posters comments)....I would shy away. In my opinion I think a breeder who does his/her homework on the dogs they have and tests eyes, ears, hips, elbows and so on and has titled dogs is a breeder that you wanna lean towards. You may pay more but money shouldn't be an object if you want a sound working companion at least in comparison to a breeder who doesn't test for the above things. Good luck in your search . Remember the German Shepherd was meant to be a working dog first and foremost and a breeder who has working dogs has real GSDs in my humble opinion. The watered down versions that are sold in most volume breeders aren't what you see competing in trials and working dog championships...BSP,WUSV and regional and national championships and trials here and abroad etc...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Kaimeju*  
_
It is also a red flag that she brags about her dogs being bred to police K-9s. Most units would not allow their dogs to be bred for profit. That's sketchy.
._

So do you know this to be a fact? I know a number of solid breeders who use police K9s in their lines (and in parts of Europe as well) Nothing about this breeder; did not even bother with the site, but I don't believe that is sketchy at all. 


I know several of the dogs in the "Rommel" pedigree . Yes they did come from a breeding program run by a k9 handler sheriff , that did put many dogs into k9 depts. I had saw and handled and owned a dog or two from him. The one dog that I really loved "Chief" was a victim of a wave of parvo that was particularly virulent . Yes he was vaccinated , both in the USA and then later by my vet in the continuation of the vaccine protocol.
Fine in the morning. Feeling off in the afternoon. Took him to the vet that same day. The vet did absolutely everything. An hour later the dog had died on the table. The vet , the two vet techs and myself were all shedding tears. Everyone really liked this dog. 
Never had a bad dog from him. New other people in Texas that had his dogs and used his dogs in breeding .


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> So do you know this to be a fact? I know a number of solid breeders who use police K9s in their lines (and in parts of Europe as well) Nothing about this breeder; did not even bother with the site, but I don't believe that is sketchy at all.



I think I meant that combined with the other traits of the breeder, it looks sketchy. I have seen other people who use Police K-9s and it did not strike me as off. This person's website highlights it on the first page, but what is their reasoning for it?? Just looks like a marketing technique to me. You're right that I shouldn't have over-generalized though.


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