# Guinness attacked the vet(a little lengthy)



## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

My 5 month old has been the best puppy and dog that I have ever had. I have never owned a male dog before, he is my first male. He has never been aggressive before, but lately when friends or visitors come, he growls and barks at them. He only barks at men though, he is great towards women and children. He has been to the vet several times, and I took him today for his last shot. When the vet weighed him, he started growling, it has always been fine before that. When the vet gave him a shot, he turned into a devil and started snapping at him and going for him. Thank God the vet is faster than he looks. I put an end to it immediately, and nobody was hurt. But I have to put a muzzle on him next vet trip. What can I do to help prevent him from that again, and do to keep him from growling at visitors? My old GSD never acted like that. I just want to put a stop at it before it might get out of hand. Thanks.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Besides just going for check ups, you can take him to the vet occasionally just to make him understand that the vet office isn't a place to be afraid of. It is going to be like a desensitization practice. Since he is a puppy, I think it is a good idea. When you take a trip to vet office (for desensitization), have your vet pet him. So, he can get used to him. And also others would agree with this recommendation ''tons of socialization and training'' in order to prevent aggression which might occur in the future. These are my humble suggestions though. Good luck.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks, that is good advice. I have trained him a ton, he just needs to socialize more with people I guess. My vet is nice, so I am sure that won't be a problem for him. I am just glad he is friendly to all women and children.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If he consistently growls at men I see a deeper problem. It's not right to be glad he's still nice to women and children, that is the less you have to expect of a dog and growling at men is absolutely not normal nor something to take lightly. There is a difference between basic training, positions and so and enforcing the rules. I see a pup that for some reason, maybe fear, maybe early attempts of dominance, I don't know, feels that he can take action on his own instead of relying on you as his leader to resolve his problems and you are allowing him. He is very young and malleable, just in time to stop this behaviour now, but growling at men is not nice and you are just starting to see the consequences of what can come later if you don't become serious about the problems that are starting to form.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't allow him to growl at men, I put a stop to it immediately, but he still does it every time. He has gotten used to a few, but still will growl at strangers. It is also good he doesn't growl at women and children, if he did, then it would be way worse. I had a lab about ten years ago who growled at men too, but she never attacked.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

I have to agree with what LicanAntai said.
Take heed! This is a serious problem. 
It could have started by something as simple as petting him once when he growled not realizing that you were re-enforcing his action.
It could well have started out as fear, or trying to assert his dominance of males. Put this little upstart in his place before it really gets out of hand.
I well mannered dog should never growl much less bite for no reason. He's not the pack leader, you are. He should follow your judgement without asking why.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Black n Tan, are you a woman? 

I knew someone years ago with a dog that "hated" men, street people, and pit bulls. The owner was at a loss as to why, and found this kind of discrimination puzzling. 

As I got to know this person better, it came out that she did not trust men herself (they will all try to manipulate you to get what they want), was uncomfortable with homeless people (they all must have something seriously wrong with them and should be locked up), and of course, Pit Bulls she did not trust either. 

So what she had was a very sensitive and bonded dog that picked up on her emotions and feelings and was acting on them. If your pup has had no negative experience with men, you should examine what kind of energy you give out when around men, he could be reacting and responding to that.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I would be careful about how you 'stop a dog from growling.' You do not want to eliminate growling in a dog. Growls are warnings. "Hey, I don't like what you're doing/about to do please back off." A dog who has been reprimanded for growling *will* stop growling. But then you've just destroyed one of his methods of communicating with you. The next time he may not growl--he may just go straight to biting.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

I am a man Castlemaid. I have never had a problem with dominance with him ever. He is very submissive to me, my brothers, my dad and uncles, and my best friend. He just growls at the men he doesn't know well. I am guessing he snapped at the vet because he probably hates shots.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

For what you describe it sounds a lot like fear reactivity. I'm not as concerned about the snap at the vet as I am at your relaxed attitude. Yes, he can hate shots, nobody have to love thems, I hate them, the point is how the dog reacts to something he hates and snapping is not acceptable.

My main point is that you seems to find OK that he growls or bark at men, because it only happen with some people and they are not kids or women (yet). But IT IS NOT OK, never, period. I also don't mean that you have to pin him to the ground every time he growls or bark and show him by force you are the man, when I say to take serious action is to seek help with trainers, to be more proactive with socialization, working on desensitizing, clicker training, aromatherapy, whatever if that is what your pup needs, but to realize that at five months old your pup should be a social butterfly seeking attention of everybody around yet. I'd want you to think that the growling and barking at men and the vet snapping are not problems on themselves, are symptoms of something you have to work through now you are still on time.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

Thank you for the advice, I will work with him. That is why I posted on here, so I could stop it before it becomes a serious problem. I will have to take him out more.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Take him out more and just stop at the Vet's office. The people who work at my Vet's office are all really great about helping me if I have a dog that isn't comfortable there. I have taken all of my dogs I got as pups there as part of their training. If you talk to your Vet or Staff, they might be willing to come out in the waiting area and give your pup treats.

You pup might be going through a fear stage, he might not be. I have a few questions for you. 

What did the Vet do before he picked up your dog? Was there any petting or did he just bend over and scoop up your dog?

Next where was the shot given? The reason I ask is that my major social butterfly Cheyenne snapped at a Vet once when he gave her a shot, I was so shocked, but once we got things settled down the Vet said he might have nicked a nerve. He said she was going after the syringe and not his hand. He thanked me for having fast reactions that got her mouth clamped down so he could get the syringe out.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

The vet actually came from behind when he picked up the dog, and he started growling. The he started petting him, and picked him up to weigh him. When he started growling again, I gave him the "stop" command and gave him bonk with my finger. After that he was fine, until the vet stuck him with a needle. He gave him a shot in the side, up by his back, near the mid rib section. I guess a few inches away from his shoulder blade. I am thankful the vet got his hand out of the way in time, and I got a good hold of his collar. He was also reprimanded immediately, and I really didn't have a problem from him after that incident. The vet even took him down off of the table himself.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

It is possible that the Vet nicked a nerve, that is the same place where Cheyenne reacted so badly.

My Vet's don't pick up my pup if I am around, they let me do it unless I tell them it is ok. So I am not a lot of help there. Also my Vet has three platform scales, so I will just walk in and scale them.

But get you pup out as has been mentioned and you might want to call you Vet place and see if it is OK to bring you pup in to socialize and get use to the office.


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## Black N Tan (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks Tiger, I definitely will do that.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Black N TanThe vet actually came from behind when he picked up the dog, and he started growling. The he started petting him, and picked him up to weigh him. When he started growling again, I gave him the "stop" command and gave him bonk with my finger. After that he was fine, until the vet stuck him with a needle. He gave him a shot in the side, up by his back, near the mid rib section. I guess a few inches away from his shoulder blade. I am thankful the vet got his hand out of the way in time, and I got a good hold of his collar. He was also reprimanded immediately, and I really didn't have a problem from him after that incident. The vet even took him down off of the table himself.


It sounds like you have a fearful pup. After reading your post I saw this:

Pup is nervous, new place, people, smells, animals and then approached from behind and picked up without being friends with this new person. If he is already fearful of men, this may have surprised him. 

So Pup growls in warning.

Vet tries to calm Pup by petting and then picks up again. Pup already warned the vet once, but felt that another warning was needed, as he was still stressed and uncomfortable with his handling him. 'Bop' is given by owner, and Pup is quiet to avoid bop, as this is not pleasant either. 

So Pup okay owner doesn't like growling, but I still don't like that vet guy, I am frustrated and nervous. Maybe feeling a little cornered.

Then pup is given a shot that startles and nicks him, since pup is already nervous and not trusting of vet, this puts him over the limit of warnings and stress that pup can handle, and he reacts with a bite.

Then pup is reprimanded (not sure how?) and this adds to the negative association to the vet. (hey what's the deal? Pup warned him!)

Pup thinks, now what's the quickest way outta here? I definitely don't like this place, bad things happen here, and I am uncomfortable.
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More positive enounters with anyone, especially those he is leary of. Keeping treats in your pocket when you take him out (a clicker is alway good too!) to give to new people for Guinness. Make it something special, and even if he won't take it from them, have the new person(s) drop the treat and walk away. Pet stores and other public places are great for finding volunteers.

It really is essential to get past this with Guiness for his future behavior. Next time you go to the vet, be loaded up with positive stuff too. Treats, and a special toy. Maybe he will play with people that he is leary of.

A good way to read how Guiness is feeling is if he will take the treat or toy. If he won't even take one from you, he is very stressed. Ask people not to overwhelm him by reaching over him front on, coming up behind him, or insisting on petting him. Have them simply drop a treat and walk away if that is all he can handle to start.
Once he is comfortable eating a treat from someone else consistently, tell them they can pet him UNDER his chin. Not over his head. 

Good luck and I look forward to hearing more about Guiness!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:If he won't even take one from you, he is very stressed.


When I had Renji at the vet, I had a pocket load of American cheese slices. He would eat them happily when getting examined but when it came time for shots, even though the cheese was smushed right up to his lips, his eyes hardened, he held his breath, and he was very still. Did not even lick the cheese. I kept calmly yet cheerfully talking to him and I think this held off any bite. As soon as the needle was out, he resumed eating and I praised him profusely. The next time we went for a second shot (we spread them apart), this repeated but again, no bite.

Next time Renji needs to go to the vet, I am stopping at a local fast food place and picking up plain cheeseburgers and maybe vanilla ice cream. No joking, but if I shove a feast under his nose, it may take his mind off the vet even more and it may be that much more of a reward. 

In your case, I'd start taking fun trips to the vet just to weigh Guiness and I would bring some super high value treats like burgers (PLAIN) or sandwiches or some sort of human food that won't hurt him. Feed him this stuff at the vet and ONLY at the vet. He's going to start loving going to the vet. Ask if they'll let you put him up on an exam table to feed him up there. Then when the time comes for his appointment, arm yourself with goodies, and keep shoving them at him! Stay at his head so you can control him if need be. Talk to him but remember to keep it CALM and HAPPY. Tell him the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears when it comes time for shots, sing him a song about how awesome he is, just something silly and funny because that will make it harder for you to be nervous and he'll take his cues from you. If you worry about his behavior, you'll breathe weird and stiffen up and get quiet and that will clue him in that something bad is going to happen. You have to be positive! Good luck.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

tyson is also a "vet biter" although he has never bitten (he's muzzled). i dont know what it is about it, anybody can pick and poke at him but when he sees the vet's tools he bites. i think its because they have to restrain him, only DW and I have ever been able to hold him calmly and do whatever is necessary i.e. clean ears, trim nails etc etc


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Do you live in Mississauga?


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Black N TanThe vet actually came from behind when he picked up the dog, and he started growling. The he started petting him, and picked him up to weigh him.


Sounds like the vet reinforced the behavior by petting him after he growled.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

1. Do NOT extinguish a growl. It is conversation, sometimes it is warning. You need it.

2. Get a few books along the lines of Suzanne Clothier's "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" to get more insight into our confusion over what consitutes agression & how to handle communication with dogs. Really it is an excellent, very interesting book.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere 1. Do NOT extinguish a growl. It is conversation, sometimes it is warning. You need it.
> 
> 2. Get a few books along the lines of Suzanne Clothier's "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" to get more insight into our confusion over what consitutes agression & how to handle communication with dogs. Really it is an excellent, very interesting book.


Ditto,

Both great points, that book is a great read. Chris Wild suggested it to me, I read it when I got Loki, it really has helped me in seeing things differently with my training.


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