# 4 month Puppy hip popping?



## BringtheRuckus

Hi everyone,

First off I would like to mention that I received my pup Ruckus from what I now realize was a backyard(ish) breeder. The family only had two litters with their GSD dogs...and are apparently now fixing the momma dog. So...Im obviously concerned about hip issues, etc. The sire was a czech GSD and the dam was a long haired GSD. I was told the hips of both parents were good, but was not shown paperwork (I now know this is not exactly a great sign). 

Anyways, it is what it is and I love the dog to death, and she is an all around great pup. She does the occasional bunny hop and lazy puppy sit (but not all the time). She is quite active and is becoming more so daily.

I'm concerned because sometimes I can feel 'something' like a pop or click.when I put my hand on her rear end when she is moving...not all the time. Also, her bum wiggles when she walks...This does not concern me that much because she is a very akward growing pup. I mentioned the popping noise to the vet (who treats the police K9 here in Vancouver) and he stated that he was not worried and little clicks etc are normal at this age... He also manipulated her hips when he saw her last and said they seemed fine. I do notice that Ruckus' knee clicks and seems very loose...is it possible I am feeling this radiate up to her hips? If the hip is in fact popping occasionally, is this a true sign of HD...or could it just mean the joints are still forming? I see so many different things on the net and I have found this forum to be seemingly the most knowledgeable. Help! Im obsessing over this... Should I just bring her in for X-rays? :help: Sorry for the rambling...but this has built up for some time.


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## BringtheRuckus

If it helps. Ruckus has a straight back...I can post pics or video if needed!


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## MaggieRoseLee

I think you are lucky you have a vet that seems to have experience with the breed.

I'd calm for a bit and just make sure you are keeping your pup lean and fit, lots of good exercise for normal growth, and you may want to add some Esther-c as a supplement. 

Ester-C: Miracle Cure for Hip Dysplasia???

Ester C for Dogs


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## BringtheRuckus

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think you are lucky you have a vet that seems to have experience with the breed.
> 
> I'd calm for a bit and just make sure you are keeping your pup lean and fit, lots of good exercise for normal growth, and you may want to add some Esther-c as a supplement.
> 
> Ester-C: Miracle Cure for Hip Dysplasia???
> 
> Ester C for Dogs


Thank you so much for the advice and the links. I have started her on glucosamine and have been giving her Vitamin C as well. We just got back from the beach and she was running around like a nut...so I dont think she is in any pain. She also jumps up on things and bolts down stairs (I try to stop her as much as I can). She needs to go in for her last round of shots soon. I imagine I should stop worrying...even if it is HD there are obviously several options to keep the pup happy.


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## BringtheRuckus

Hi again, 

So I had Ruckus X-rayed today. Definitely not OFA quality as she was not asleep. However according to the vet, the X ray and the ortolani test did not show any signs of hip dysplasia. I just want to make sure I'm not getting the run around here... I paid 350 for 3 xrays plus the exam and some Glyco Flex supplements. I will post the X rays below, please comment, criticize etc. 

Also, I asked about giving her glucosamine and he said that it would not help as she is not arthritic. However the (expensive) joint supplement I was given also contains glucosamine as well as GlycOmega and DMG (N,N - Dimethylglycine) ...are the 
two other active ingredients really adding that much benefit? 

Please see x ray below:


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## MaggieRoseLee

I can't see your post and if it's not the computer I'm on you may need to read this --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/135328-how-post-pictures-site.html


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## BringtheRuckus

Please find the picture below.


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## Shaina

I cant say much except that they look a lot better than my dogs who does have HD. Im not an expert but the femoral heads look pretty smooth and are mostly covered in the socket. That's about as knowledgeable as I get LOL


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## MaggieRoseLee

I'm not a vet.... and with a 4 month old it's early yet.

For me, I don't see any deformation really in the hip or ball joint. It does seem there's some laxity ( looseness?) in the joint, specially on the right (dogs left hip). But I also need to add that I REALLY am not used to looking at such a young dog's hip so that may be normal as they grow.

I would definitely keep the dog lean and FIT. Keep the muscles strong to take any pressure off the bones/joints. Plus the supplements.

Hopefully all the other hip experts will chime in.


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## BringtheRuckus

Shaina said:


> I cant say much except that they look a lot better than my dogs who does have HD. Im not an expert but the femoral heads look pretty smooth and are mostly covered in the socket. That's about as knowledgeable as I get LOL


Thanks...makes me feel better anyway!


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## BringtheRuckus

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm not a vet.... and with a 4 month old it's early yet.
> 
> For me, I don't see any deformation really in the hip or ball joint. It does seem there's some laxity ( looseness?) in the joint, specially on the right (dogs left hip). But I also need to add that I REALLY am not used to looking at such a young dog's hip so that may be normal as they grow.
> 
> I would definitely keep the dog lean and FIT. Keep the muscles strong to take any pressure off the bones/joints. Plus the supplements.
> 
> Hopefully all the other hip experts will chime in.



Thanks MaggieRoseLee! Her left hip is definitely a bit looser than the right. You guys are awesome for responding so quickly. Takes a lot of stress off. :wild:. She just had a great weekend in Tofino, BC running up and down the beach and swimming.


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## BringtheRuckus

BUMP!

Any other hip experts out there?


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## lzver

I'm surprised your vet xrayed at 4 months. I had our 6 month old Jake in for an orthopedic exam a few weeks ago and our vet advised waiting until at least 18 months to X-ray for HD. It's too early to tell is what I have been told.


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## BringtheRuckus

lzver said:


> I'm surprised your vet xrayed at 4 months. I had our 6 month old Jake in for an orthopedic exam a few weeks ago and our vet advised waiting until at least 18 months to X-ray for HD. It's too early to tell is what I have been told.



This was my understanding as well prior to getting the X-ray. That is why I was nervous that he even decided to take X-ray. Maybe he could just see that I was worried and wanted some piece of mind? I was told by him, that for the age she looks 'fine' and it is a good indication that she will be fine at 24 months. I was massaging the pups legs about an hour ago (we went camping this weekend...and lets just say Ruckus loves the beach...so she got a lot of exercise), when i was rubbing her legs she yelped and didn't look to happy with me. Could that just be a result of sore muscles? She seemed pretty pooped for most of the day today.


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## Loneforce

I just quit going to a vet because of that money making hogwash. It was one of them holistic vets that made my life a living heck


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## MaggieRoseLee

Since PennHip xrays can be taken and read as young as 16 weeks, there is information in a young dogs x-ray Frequently Asked Questions



> *How Old Must My Dog be to Have a PennHIP Radiograph?
> *
> 
> PennHIP has studied the efficacy of this method from the eight weeks up to three years of age. The PennHIP method can be reliably performed on a dog as *young as 16 weeks old*. Passive hip laxity at 16 weeks correlates highly with later hip laxity. In other words, a dog's hip laxity at 16 weeks will be much the same at one year, two years or even three years. The accuracy of laxity measurements for German Shepherd Dogs less than 16 weeks of age is not high enough to be of clinical use. Other breeds require study to determine the earliest reliable age of evaluation.
> 
> The looser the joint, as determined by the PennHIP method, the greater is the chance that the hip will develop DJD. (The standard hip-extended method can actually _mask_ true hip joint laxity). There are obvious advantages to screening dogs for hip joint laxity at 4 months of age (or six months, 1 year, etc.) as opposed to waiting until 2 years of age. The reliability of the PennHIP method slightly improves with age, with one year 1 year being marginally superior to 6 months, which in turn is marginally better than 4 months. For all dogs, we recommend when possible, to use the mean (average) of repeated evaluations to get a more reliable estimate of a dog's hip laxity status (phenotype).





BringtheRuckus said:


> I was massaging the pups legs about an hour ago (we went camping this weekend...and lets just say Ruckus loves the beach...so she got a lot of exercise), when i was rubbing her legs she yelped and didn't look to happy with me. Could that just be a result of sore muscles? She seemed pretty pooped for most of the day today.


Dogs DEFINITELY can get stiff and sore. Plus our GSD's are also prone to pano the first year or so.

panosteitis in the german shepherd

Panosteitis in the GSD - Panosteitis and Your German Shepherd Dog


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## BringtheRuckus

Loneforce said:


> I just quit going to a vet because of that money making hogwash. It was one of them holistic vets that made my life a living heck



Tell me about it. Im getting a bit frustrated, I feel the vet is blowing off concerns, but then does not blink in recommending $350.00 X-rays and supplements which are $40 dollars (the second ingredient being glucosamine)...however when I asked if I should be giving ruckus glucosamine purchased at the pharmacy for much less he says it is not needed. Unless the other two ingredients in the supplement are really that significant??


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## BringtheRuckus

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Since PennHip xrays can be taken and read as young as 16 weeks, there is information in a young dogs x-ray Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogs DEFINITELY can get stiff and sore. Plus our GSD's are also prone to pano the first year or so.
> 
> panosteitis in the german shepherd
> 
> Panosteitis in the GSD - Panosteitis and Your German Shepherd Dog



Thanks MaggieRoseLee. I just notice Ruckus seems stiff today. When I put my hand on her rear end when she walks I definitely feel some sort of clunk or click...I don't know how one would describe it. Coincidentally, we are going to the vet today for the remainder of her shots. I will mention it to him...again...and give you guys an update!


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## BringtheRuckus

BringtheRuckus said:


> Thanks MaggieRoseLee. I just notice Ruckus seems stiff today. When I put my hand on her rear end when she walks I definitely feel some sort of clunk or click...I don't know how one would describe it. Coincidentally, we are going to the vet today for the remainder of her shots. I will mention it to him...again...and give you guys an update!



Again, the vet does not seem concerned. He said she is on the lean side which is good...he mentioned it is unlikely she has dysplasia and any awkwardness at this point can most likely be attributed to growth. However, he seems to dodge the clicking clunking issue by saying that is not the only indicator of HD and many dogs without it have had clicking, popping, etc...can anyone here confirm this? IE a dog with OFA good who had clicking popping joints when younger?


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## BringtheRuckus

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm not a vet.... and with a 4 month old it's early yet.
> 
> For me, I don't see any deformation really in the hip or ball joint. It does seem there's some laxity ( looseness?) in the joint, specially on the right (dogs left hip). But I also need to add that I REALLY am not used to looking at such a young dog's hip so that may be normal as they grow.
> 
> I would definitely keep the dog lean and FIT. Keep the muscles strong to take any pressure off the bones/joints. Plus the supplements.
> 
> Hopefully all the other hip experts will chime in.



Well..Ruckus is 6 months old today. The popping in her hip had not subsided so I had the vet look at her. The expression on his face says it all. Although we did not do any further x-rays...the popping has concerned him to the point that he is recommending the TPO surgery, which Im hoping her insurance will cover. I'm mad, but was kind of expecting the news. I just wanted to know if anyone here has any input or feedback regarding this type of surgery? Is it worth it? I just want her to be a happy dog, and need her for hiking and camping etc so the 'wait and see' approach is pretty much out of the question for me. Should I get a second opinion...I mean the popping is very obviously coming from her hips...at some points you can see it. The vet is surprised though, because her Xrays didn't really merit that type of symptom....not really sure what Im looking for here...I just found out and am a bit taken aback.


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## Freestep

Whoa, he wants to do a TPO on a dog that x-rayed clear two months ago? Definitely get another x-ray before you do any type of surgery. TPO can definitely help a dog with severe dysplasia, but her previous x-ray didn't show that.

Since the conformation of the hip joint is good, the only way I could see dysplasia occurring is loose ligamentation. Which could cause the popping and clicking. If there is a dramatic change between now and two months ago, then yes, I'd say do the TPO as soon as you can--healing and recovery time is much faster in a young pup.

I'm not sure why you are mad at the vet... this is not his fault!


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## BringtheRuckus

Freestep said:


> Whoa, he wants to do a TPO on a dog that x-rayed clear two months ago? Definitely get another x-ray before you do any type of surgery. TPO can definitely help a dog with severe dysplasia, but her previous x-ray didn't show that.
> 
> Since the conformation of the hip joint is good, the only way I could see dysplasia occurring is loose ligamentation. Which could cause the popping and clicking. If there is a dramatic change between now and two months ago, then yes, I'd say do the TPO as soon as you can--healing and recovery time is much faster in a young pup.
> 
> I'm not sure why you are mad at the vet... this is not his fault!



Hi, I agree. I think Im going to go get a second opinion. Haha...not mad at the vet at all, they were quite pleasant. Just mad at the situation.  He mentioned that he thought it was ligaments as well? Is there not an alternative way to tighten the ligaments? Like exercise etc?


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## JakodaCD OA

I would seek out an orthopedic surgeon and go from there.

Water therapy can do tremendous things for tightening ligaments/building muscle tone.


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## carmspack

I thought the x rays were poorly positioned and expensive - when you say Ortolani (distraction) was he trying to do a Penn Hip type exam and what were the findings then.
You can submit those plates to OFA for an educated opinion - or take them to the vet who is in care for the police dept that you mentioned, or start fresh , new x rays , other vet.


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## BringtheRuckus

carmspack said:


> I thought the x rays were poorly positioned and expensive - when you say Ortolani (distraction) was he trying to do a Penn Hip type exam and what were the findings then.
> You can submit those plates to OFA for an educated opinion - or take them to the vet who is in care for the police dept that you mentioned, or start fresh , new x rays , other vet.



Yup..they were poorly positioned and expensive, I'm not sure what that has to do with the current situation...they were done by the vet who is in care for the police department. An ortolani sign can be felt/ heard without penn hip style evaluation. The fact that I can hear and feel the puppy's hip pop when she walks by is of concern for me and apparently for the vet that I saw today who recommended xrays and possibly surgery. The only reason I did not take a second x ray today is that we are waiting for certain coverages to kick in before it is deemed a pre existing condition if you catch my drift... 

Does anyone here have experience with dogs who had loose ligaments which caused popping? Everywhere I look, it seems it is a sign of dysplasia. However I have not gotten a clear answer from anyone...including the vet.


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## BringtheRuckus

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would seek out an orthopedic surgeon and go from there.
> 
> Water therapy can do tremendous things for tightening ligaments/building muscle tone.



I was thinking the same thing, however aren't surgeons more inclined to jump on the surgery wagon...considering they make tons of $$ from it. I don't want the pup to go through unnecessary pain in order to help a surgeon pay off his Mercedes Benz :laugh:. I will definitely be taking her to a vet that does not know her and start fresh.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm sure there are some out there like that (surgeons), but I would want to go to a specialist vs a regular vet when it comes to something as serious as this.

Unless the vet was very savvy in even performing surgeries like this, I would still use an ortho ..Maybe you can get some referrals to a good one in your area??

But yes, I think a second opinion no matter who it is, vet/ortho, would be a good idea to go in 'clean'..see what they say.


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## Freestep

Veterinarians, contrary to popular belief, do NOT make a ton of money. They have to go to school for 8 years, same as an MD and just as expensive (if not more so), but they only make a fraction as much money as MDs once they graduate. If a vet is driving a Mercedes Benz, that means they're working dang hard. 

Yes, the x-rays are expensive, I think mine were about the same price, except that my dog was put under anesthesia.

However, if you don't like the vet you've been seeing, there's nothing wrong with getting a second opinion.


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## BowWowMeow

Rafi had loose hips (as identified by the vet who neutered him, before I adopted him) and they made popping sounds every time he got up. 

I started exercising him (5 miles of walking per day, every day and swimming when possible), got him on a good diet and supplements (Ester C, fish oil and joint supplements) and his hips no longer pop. He is now 6 years old. He was between 1 and 1 and a half when I adopted him.


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## BringtheRuckus

Freestep said:


> Veterinarians, contrary to popular belief, do NOT make a ton of money. They have to go to school for 8 years, same as an MD and just as expensive (if not more so), but they only make a fraction as much money as MDs once they graduate. If a vet is driving a Mercedes Benz, that means they're working dang hard.
> 
> Yes, the x-rays are expensive, I think mine were about the same price, except that my dog was put under anesthesia.
> 
> However, if you don't like the vet you've been seeing, there's nothing wrong with getting a second opinion.



They make about $100,000 a year give or take. Not insane, but you could push at least a second hand Benz with that. 

We decided against anesthetic because she was so young...looking at the Xray now though, the positioning is total s*** I should have refused to pay for it. 


Definitely will try another vet.


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## BringtheRuckus

BowWowMeow said:


> Rafi had loose hips (as identified by the vet who neutered him, before I adopted him) and they made popping sounds every time he got up.
> 
> I started exercising him (5 miles of walking per day, every day and swimming when possible), got him on a good diet and supplements (Ester C, fish oil and joint supplements) and his hips no longer pop. He is now 6 years old. He was between 1 and 1 and a half when I adopted him.


I have heard of similar results, and this is why I'm hesitant to jump on surgery. She is on ester C, a joint supplement...and fish oil (I just ran out!...thanks for reminding me).

No signs of dysplasia for your pup?


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## BringtheRuckus

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm sure there are some out there like that (surgeons), but I would want to go to a specialist vs a regular vet when it comes to something as serious as this.
> 
> Unless the vet was very savvy in even performing surgeries like this, I would still use an ortho ..Maybe you can get some referrals to a good one in your area??
> 
> But yes, I think a second opinion no matter who it is, vet/ortho, would be a good idea to go in 'clean'..see what they say.



Oh definitely, the vet said he would have to refer me as he does not do these surgeries. 

Thanks. I think I will get a second opinion that before doing anything.


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## Freestep

BringtheRuckus said:


> They make about $100,000 a year give or take. Not insane, but you could push at least a second hand Benz with that.


They might make $100K a year after they've been established for a while... starting vets don't make anywhere near that much. And don't forget, they have to pay off their student loans.



> We decided against anesthetic because she was so young...looking at the Xray now though, the positioning is total s*** I should have refused to pay for it.


I would have simply asked for another x-ray, with anesthesia, if you didn't like the positioning. Frankly, I think the x-ray works fine to see what you needed to see, which is the conformation of the hip joint--at 4 months of age, you wouldn't expect to see any remodeling or arthritis. 

Actually, what I would do if I were you is a PennHip exam. It is more expensive, and you have to find a vet that does it, but it will be able to measure the laxity of the hip as well as the hip conformation, which should give you a more definitive prognosis for the future.


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## BringtheRuckus

Freestep said:


> They might make $100K a year after they've been established for a while... starting vets don't make anywhere near that much. And don't forget, they have to pay off their student loans.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have simply asked for another x-ray, with anesthesia, if you didn't like the positioning. Frankly, I think the x-ray works fine to see what you needed to see, which is the conformation of the hip joint--at 4 months of age, you wouldn't expect to see any remodeling or arthritis.
> 
> Actually, what I would do if I were you is a PennHip exam. It is more expensive, and you have to find a vet that does it, but it will be able to measure the laxity of the hip as well as the hip conformation, which should give you a more definitive prognosis for the future.



I'm starting to get pretty worried. We went to the park this morning...She was playing with Izzy the bull dog. They had a blast. However when I got home and manipulated her back leg slightly she yelped and was showing obvious signs of discomfort. I can't believe a 6 month old puppy has to go through something like this.... Ill be taking her to the vet early next week, but Im pretty much ready for the diagnosis and possibly surgery to follow. It's definitely not normal for a pup that age to be in pain after playing in the park.


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## carmspack

was she showing signs of pain at the park , or after you got home and manipulated her leg -- maybe you are worrying too much "when I got home and manipulated her back leg slightly she yelped and was showing obvious signs of discomfort. "


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## BringtheRuckus

carmspack said:


> was she showing signs of pain at the park , or after you got home and manipulated her leg -- maybe you are worrying too much "when I got home and manipulated her back leg slightly she yelped and was showing obvious signs of discomfort. "



Not really, hard to say when she plays though as they tend to ignore pain when excited. 

When I say manipulated...i literally just lifted her leg up when she was lying down to check her stomach for fleas and she cried...There was no pulling or stretching etc. 

Not to mention her hip makes a clunk noise sometimes when she walks. Im hoping for the best...but there are some signs.


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## cliffson1

You are way over concerned! The x-rays you posted donot show anything that should have surgery, or any other intervention at this point. The femurs are in the socket, not perfect but a lot of formation of the hips is still to take place. Let the puppy grow up....limping could be from pano, it could be from lymes, and you have an xray that doesnt show moderate or worse hips at this point .....so let the puppy grow up and go through the growth stages.!!!! You are entertaining much to much speculative things without a basis. I've had pups limp for months and months on pano starting at 4 months. CHILL!


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## BringtheRuckus

cliffson1 said:


> You are way over concerned! The x-rays you posted donot show anything that should have surgery, or any other intervention at this point. The femurs are in the socket, not perfect but a lot of formation of the hips is still to take place. Let the puppy grow up....limping could be from pano, it could be from lymes, and you have an xray that doesnt show moderate or worse hips at this point .....so let the puppy grow up and go through the growth stages.!!!! You are entertaining much to much speculative things without a basis. I've had pups limp for months and months on pano starting at 4 months. CHILL!



Hi,

Thanks for the input. However there are several factors that are bringing on concern. The hip sway is evident, the dog has a hard time up the stairs...the vet felt her hips and was very concerned as there is a noticeable roll and a great deal of laxity. I will obviously not do surgery if it is not warranted...its the last thing I want for the pup. Im not worried for no reason...I am with the dog every day and am noticing some changes that are not normal for a puppy. Im not just some neurotic hypochondriac looking for an excuse to cut my dog open. She will be going in for xrays...which I will post for you all to see, and go from there. I will also be seeking a second opinion from a vet who does not know her.


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## cliffson1

I am not saying you are anything....if those X-rays you submitted are of the same dog, then I didn't see the extreme condition in the X-rays. Good Luck!


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## BringtheRuckus

cliffson1 said:


> I am not saying you are anything....if those X-rays you submitted are of the same dog, then I didn't see the extreme condition in the X-rays. Good Luck!



Haha, great thanks! I'll keep everyone posted.


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## Kody Njolstad

BringtheRuckus said:


> Haha, great thanks! I'll keep everyone posted.


So??


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## Fodder

Kody Njolstad said:


> So??


Last seen Oct 3 2012


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