# Dogs Are People, Too



## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

Some confirmation of what we already know:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-people-too.html?src=me&ref=general


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Uh oh....

Confirmation that dogs have similar emotions yeah sure...but....

I love my dogs. My dogs see 'their' Dr. more then I do. They get better supplements then I do. I have placed myself between Ilda when she was a puppy and two large dogs (pittie and boxer) that were charging at us.

To conflate, however, basic autonomic functions that evolved for survival with being a 'person' and therefore cannot be 'property' is ridiculous. The premise of this (IMHO) is that by giving the dog more rights to personhood they'll somehow be treated with less abuse. As though we don't already treat fellow human beings with callous disregard and abuse every day on this planet.  

Having emotions isn't enough, bugs probably have rudimentary 'feelings' as well. 

Until my dogs can at least contemplate the fact that if they eat the entire bag of dog food now they won't have anything to eat tomorrow, they are and will be 'my' dogs.

'I think therefore I am' :shrug:

From linked article:



> DOGS have long been considered property. Though the Animal Welfare Act of 1966 and state laws raised the bar for the treatment of animals, they solidified the view that animals are things — objects that can be disposed of as long as reasonable care is taken to minimize their suffering.
> 
> But now, by using the M.R.I. to push away the limitations of behaviorism, we can no longer hide from the evidence. Dogs, and probably many other animals (especially our closest primate relatives), seem to have emotions just like us. And this means we must reconsider their treatment as property


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## WendyV (Sep 12, 2013)

"If we went a step further and granted dogs rights of personhood, they would be afforded additional protection against exploitation. "

How do you grant personhood to some one who isn't a person? I believe they should be treated right but a dog is still not a person. I do treat my dog as a family member because she is but still... she's not a person.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Uh oh....
> 
> Confirmation that dogs have similar emotions yeah sure...but....
> 
> ...




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Unless I'm mistaken, we're both (dogs and humans) classified as "animals". Sadly, I do hold my dog in higher reguards than some people. Some people can be just as "animalistic" as, well, animals. Just because dogs act on instict more than humans, which humans in certain situations still do, doesn't make them any less, human than humans. Take away all our creature comforts for a designated amount of time, I think you would see a vast difference in human qualties that may start to mirror a dogs. But still, they are not humans as they really on our help to survive. Take that away and our plains of exsitance become closer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

weeelllll - they're not .

A few years back I was asked by the organizers of a Raw and Vegan festival in Toronto to participate as a vendor , representing "raw" for dogs .

I spent the majority of my time and more importantly energy , dealing with angry , PETA types who challenged any dog ownership at all . Their ideal was that dogs be self empowered to come and go as they please, join and create their own family units and friends. Afterwards at this two day event the organizers, who do own dogs and who do feed raw and who do use and love the supplements (reason for the invite) were surprised . Maybe a fluke , maybe some charged group trying to make a point -- come , do it next year . And so the following year I did a repeat - even came with product that had no animal product in it . Goat whey , or bee pollen are what would qualify as animal sourced in my supplements.
No change the following year same thing.

Why are dogs people too - could the results have been phrased people are dogs too . No more than primates, Chimpanzee or Binobo being people or human , or we , one of them - even though the DNA is as close as you can get .

We are a very urbanized civilization .


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

It would be good if the law evolved to recognize an intermediary state, because right now I think the state of the law regarding companion animals is woefully deficient in a number of ways, and increasing lawmakers' understanding of animals' capacity for thought and emotion can only be a good thing. A dog isn't a telephone and shouldn't be valued like one.

Of course they aren't people either, but there should be an intermediate state, and it's my hope that improved understanding will help push that change.

But beyond that this just reinforces my own views on how I want to approach my relationships with my dogs, so hooray, confirmation.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahhh.....but the plains of existence even amongst us bipedal hominids known as **** Sapiens is far apart. We slice and dice our own humanity based on many things (race, nationality, tribe and most of all gender) and then treat each other as 'lesser' beings based on that.

If we can't even respect 'personhood' within our own species we'll surely never be able to for dogs.

For this reason, IMO, it's a non starter.....




jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, we're both (dogs and humans) classified as "animals". Sadly, I do hold my dog in higher reguards than some people. Some people can be just as "animalistic" as, well, animals. Just because dogs act on instict more than humans, which humans in certain situations still do, doesn't make them any less, human than humans. Take away all our creature comforts for a designated amount of time, I think you would see a vast difference in human qualties that may start to mirror a dogs. But still, they are not humans as they really on our help to survive. Take that away and our plains of exsitance become closer.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Uh oh....
> 
> Confirmation that dogs have similar emotions yeah sure...but....
> 
> ...


I say, if corporations get to be treated like people, then so do my dogs!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What a terrible, ignorant insult to dogs. 

Dogs aren't people, and half the problems people have with them is in expecting them to be people or in treating them as if they were people. 

They aren't. They eat bugs, roll on dead things, and sniff poop. These are not normal occupations for people, sorry. 

They are also pretty straight-forward. They may wait for you to be occupied in the john before stealing the chicken off the counter; but they are not going to spend weeks setting you up so that your boss undermines you and they get the promotion. They may dig out of a yard to go wooing the young miss down the street, but they aren't going to send your husband out to the front lines of a battle so that they can steal your wife. And they may get all puffed up when you are happy that they did well on the rally or conformation course, but they aren't going to deliberately break the knees (hips or elbows) of the nearest competitor. 

No, dogs are dogs and thank God that they are. There are enough people on this planet. 

There is nothing wrong with fully understanding and respecting the depth and beauty of the creatures that we share our lives with, but to make them human is an insult.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> I say, if corporations get to be treated like people, then so do my dogs!


:laugh:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You really don't want your dog treated like a person. The reason these fanatics want this is so that people STOP owning animals. If your dog is granted person-hood, then you no longer own your dog, you are your dog's guardian, and someone can take you to court for using a prong collar, confining the dog in a crate, giving a leash correction, feeding raw food, and the list goes on and on. 

One would hope that the over-burdened judicial system would throw these cases out. But squeaky wheels are generally given some grease now and again. 

Which of us wants to go to court to try to maintain guardianship of our four-footed friends? Will all of us be able to take the time off of work, and consult with an attourney? 

Dogs would be fine on their own, if they were raised by their dams in the wild, and the world was not set up mainly for human inhabitation. The fact is, our current domestic dogs would be hard-pressed to manage for themselves in the wild. But they simply cannot manage for themselves in the human-world. 

They have feelings, YES! We have all known this. They aren't the same as human emotions. They are similar. They are on a more primitive, raw level. They feel a deep loyalty/respect for their owners that could pass for love. They feel a raw anger sometimes that could pass for jealousy when another bitch is getting attention from their person. They feel terrible grief when their person is totally gone. Yes, they feel. They feel lots of things. It doesn't make them human. It does help us relate to them. It endears them to us. But they are still dogs. They still need a human to take them out into the world, to provide for them, and to protect them.


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## WendyV (Sep 12, 2013)

Human rights would most likely mean they cannot be put down even for extremely painful terminal illness. Doctor assisted suicide is illegal except maybe in Oregon. I could be wrong.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> They aren't. They eat bugs, roll on dead things, and sniff poop. These are not normal occupations for people, sorry.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Some people do that too, I am sure. We are who we are and dogs are dogs, thank Heavens.
> They are way too special to be lumped in with us.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't consider that to be evidence that dogs are more like people, but evidence that people are even less different from animals than we thought.


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## WendyV (Sep 12, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> > They aren't. They eat bugs, roll on dead things, and sniff poop. These are not normal occupations for people, sorry.
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People ARE animals. 

We are members of the Animal Kingdom. 

We are Mammals, like dogs and horses and a bajillion other critters. 

Pretty much that is where the similarities end. 

We are closer to gorillas than we are to dogs in physical makeup. 

Dogs are carnivores -- eyes in the front of the head (predators), teeth for ripping and tearing; Horses are herbivores, eyes on the sides of the head where they can watch out for predators, teeth for chewing grass and grains; we are omnivores, eyes more like to the predator and teeth for eating anything.

What for me doesn't make critters including dogs, people, is that they do not plan for the future, they are not capable of considering the long-term consequences of their actions. 

I mean, they might be able to know that if they grab something from the counter, the man in there will yell at them and put them in the crate. They cannot put things together like, if I pull this off the counter, than, the family will have no dinner, and the man will break his toe chasing after me, and they may send me to the shelter because I am a thief. 

They simply are not human beings. They are not going to grow up, get a job, move out, and pay the heat and electric bills. They are dogs. They need humans to be responsible for them while they travel in the human-world. They need humans to provide for them, forever. They do not think it terms of forever. They are here, right now, and they are not thinking about how they are going to go out and meet their gal tomorrow. 

They can miss their person, even days later. They cannot long after something they have never had. People can. And people can develop long-term plans to get what they want. 

A dog reacts, a dog is trained. The dog reacts when it is scared, the dog is trained not to take things off the counter. A dog will respond/react to your mood, and go to you for comfort when he is unsettled. A dog may be unsettled when you are exuding negative or sick pharamones, and your dog may go to you. This may be very comforting to you. 

They are dogs. They are special. They have traits that have endeared people to them for thousands of years. It is, for the most part, a good match for both of us. Dogs in the wild really aren't so much better off. They do not live that much longer, and many die a lot earlier. They run in packs where it is often the strongest that get to dictate where they go, and what they do, and who eats what and when. They are subjected to the elements, parasites, critters, injuries, illness, starvation. 

I think it is just silly, this idea to grant them some form of personhood so that we can what? Ensure that they are treated differently by the law? I don't get what good it will do for anyone to remove the idea of ownership and replace it with dogs-are-people-too. 

It is all just too PETA for me.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

My chickens are human too lol



> ...They are not going to grow up, get a job, move out, and pay the heat and electric bills. They are dogs. They need humans to be responsible for them while they travel in the human-world....


One could argue that young humans don't have these 'human' skills, needs, responsibilities and traits. 

The heading of the article is off putting, 'Dogs are people' when they obviously are not. 

The experimentation is very interesting though. No other animal has such a close bond with humans. 

How Dogs Love Us - YouTube

IMO, The problem for dogs is they will now be more likely to be used for medical and pharmaceutical research as they respond more human-like than chimps.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> My chickens are human too lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Other creatures are not given the opportunity in mass. I know someone who had a raccoon, it was a lot like owning a dog -- the same with the guy who had a skunk -- they make great pets. 

People have trained and kept monkeys as pets, and they love them. I have no clue what they are like. They may have a wider expanse of emotions than dogs do, but may be less able to be domesticated. I don't know. And people cannot even keep their 4 - 220 pound dogs in check, could you imagine this country with gorillas or Chimps being kept like dogs? 

I think we are bound to be able to see more from dogs than we will from other critters, just because they are highly trainable, and so popular. But, that does not make them more like us than some other critters out there. 

There are differences between all critters and humans though. Juvenile humans do not have a choice but to graduate into adult humans if they do not die. They will not be dogs or chimps. And even very young juvenile humans can plan, can consider other people's feelings, and think about how their actions will effect others, etc. We are different then other creatures from our history, our planning for the future, our use of planning and tools to provide for ourselves against the elements, where critters rely on their instincts. There is nothing wrong with critters being critters, and people being people. It does not mean that people should allow critters prolonged suffering. But being a meat eater, I am not going to make dogs people, because it is just another step to say that cows, chicken, and pigs are people too. And I DON'T LIKE FISH, thank you very much. 

Turkeys, chickens, cows, pigs, and dogs are not people. They are critters. I like them. I like all critters. But I like some as companions/pets, and some as food. 

It screams of PETA.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I feel that something goes on in their brains. I also feel that can feel pain and sadness. My dogs are not just my dogs they are my family. Are they considered people? No, but they are living breathing beings. They give us humans joy, happiness, and sometimes save us from emotional breakdowns. I know they look at me and understand basic stuff. I also believe that if more humans were like dogs we would live in a much better world. Dogs in general deserve more credit then what they get.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

selzer said:


> ...
> is that they do not plan for the future, they are not capable of considering the long-term consequences of their actions.
> ...


There are people like that in the housing projects...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

alexg said:


> There are people like that in the housing projects...


Criminals generally are making a choice to ignore long term consequences, and may plan but often their choices and opportunities are limited. 

I don't think we are talking about mentally challenged people here. They will always require supervision and help, but that does not change their status to a critter. 

A vegetable cannot move around like an animal, but a person in a coma is not a vegetable. We are talking about people in general and dogs in general. Not special cases, or people who choose to act in ways that society does not accept.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think that in the sense of justice they deserve more. A person that contjnually hurt animals should be strongly evaluated. It's a proven fact that serial killers start their career with animals.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

Sometimes we hear the silliest things in life and just have to walk on because well that's life. People are people and dogs are dogs. Dog's are part of our family but they are not people. So where is the money going every time you donate to the humane society anyhow, I bet I know!!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

selzer said:


> People ARE animals.


Yes but until now most people were like "Even though we're animals, we're special animals, because animals don't have thoughts or feelings like we do." so it was a justification for people to do some pretty cruel things. Now there's lots of evidence proving otherwise.

But I think this sort of evidence should go towards better animal cruelty laws, not granting animals personhood. Personhood has never been about intellectual or emotionally capacity.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL!!!


You know what! I really was thinking that but didn't want to go there....



hunterisgreat said:


> I say, if corporations get to be treated like people, then so do my dogs!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Rationalizations do not equal drivers for behavior though.

I submit that since we are still cruel to fellow human beings (human trafficking is alive and well even in developed countriesl) that saying dogs are more like humans will not stop cruelty.

It just won't.

The argument is whether laws shape human morals or evolving human morals will shape laws......depends on whether humans are really evolving at all.

The jury is out on that but evidence indicates we still use a lot paleo based motivators in our modern society.

To the point which I usually say "Scotty, beam me up now...please?"



Syaoransbear said:


> Yes but until now most people were like "Even though we're animals, we're special animals, because animals don't have thoughts or feelings like we do." so it was a justification for people to do some pretty cruel things. Now there's lots of evidence proving otherwise.
> 
> But I think this sort of evidence should go towards better animal cruelty laws, not granting animals personhood. Personhood has never been about intellectual or emotionally capacity.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup:



selzer said:


> Criminals generally are making a choice to ignore long term consequences, and may plan but often their choices and opportunities are limited.
> 
> I don't think we are talking about mentally challenged people here. They will always require supervision and help, but that does not change their status to a critter.
> 
> A vegetable cannot move around like an animal, but a person in a coma is not a vegetable. We are talking about people in general and dogs in general. Not special cases, or people who choose to act in ways that society does not accept.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i sleep on the sofa, my dog sleeps on the sofa, i sleep on my bed,
our dog sleeps on our bed, i listen to music, our dog listens to music,
we walk in the woods, our dog walks in the woods, i go to the bar,
our dog goes to the bar, i get the mail, our dog gets the mail,
i eat out of a bowl, our dog eats out of a bowl, we eat fish, meat, 
fruit, our dog eats fish, meat, fruit, i say hello to our neighbors, our
dog greets our neighbors, i shake hands, our dog gives a paw, i'm a inside
human, our dog is an inside dog. i don't understand what the problem is.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Really? Sort-a explains the 'hair of the dog' theory. 




doggiedad said:


> i sleep on the sofa, my dog sleeps on the sofa, i sleep on my bed,
> our dog sleeps on our bed, i listen to music, our dog listens to music,
> we walk in the woods, our dog walks in the woods, i go to the bar,
> our dog goes to the bar, i get the mail, our dog gets the mail,
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what really and yes really. how does this explain the "bite the hair
of the dog that bit you"? i'm laughing already.



doggiedad said:


> i sleep on the sofa, my dog sleeps on the sofa, i sleep on my bed,our dog sleeps on our bed, i listen to music, our dog listens to music,we walk in the woods, our dog walks in the woods, i go to the bar, our dog goes to the bar, i get the mail, our dog gets the mail, i eat out of a bowl, our dog eats out of a bowl, we eat fish, meat, fruit, our dog eats fish, meat, fruit, i say hello to our neighbors, our dog greets our neighbors, i shake hands, our dog gives a paw, i'm a inside human, our dog is an inside dog. i don't understand what the problem is.





Gwenhwyfair said:


> >>>>> Really? <<<<<
> 
> >>>>> Sort-a explains the 'hair of the dog' theory.<<<<<


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahhh no 'hair of the dog' the best cure for a hangover is more drink! 












doggiedad said:


> what really and yes really. how does this explain the "bite the hair
> of the dog that bit you"? i'm laughing already.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

My dog is perfectly happy to be a dog. Just ask him.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

... and this is what came to MY mind when I read 'hair of the dog' comment:


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