# He won't be controlled (high energy destroying the house!)



## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

We adopted a 18-month old neutered GSD almost 8 weeks ago. He had been crated for 12 to 14 hours per day at his previous owner's home, and wouldn't set foot in a crate when we got him. We didn't mind, because he was an amazing dog, then the honeymoon wore off.

I took him to training, which he excels at. When he's leashed, he does exactly as he's told. He responds well to commands. However, he's "overly playful" toward my younger kids. I don't think it's more of a desire to play than a desire to hurt them. I caught him nipping at the baby and at my 4 year old (neither were injured). The trainer instructed me to start keeping him in a crate.

So we got him in a crate. And then he broke out of the crate. Then he broke the crate.

And the next crate.

And the next crate...which was solid stainless steel welded wire. We used heavy duty zip ties to put it back together until we can afford to purchase yet another one.

I've come home to find my kitchen ripped apart more than once. He's ripped curtains down, broken out the back door to run around the yard, eaten chickens, etc... Gunner, all told, has done over $600 worth of damage to my house (not including the cost of the crates or livestock). He barks at the kids while he's in the crate. If I put him somewhere the kids don't bother him, he barks non-stop. If I try to cover his crate, he yanks the covering through and chews it up. 

This morning, I went to the gas station with my 4 year old, and came home 20 minutes later to find trash all over the living room and kitchen. Plates that were stacked next to the sink were shattered on the floor. And Gunner happily in his crate, eating something he'd pulled from the trash.

I've talked to a dog behaviorist about SA. At first, this all seemed like SA. But...this morning, my husband was home (albeit asleep). So now I'm doubting SA and I think I just have a wretchedly defiant dog on my hands.

I've tried taking him outside to tire him out before we went anywhere. It worked for a few days, then stopped working. I've given him things to chew in his crate to keep him occupied. He destroys them in a matter of minutes, even "chew proof" toys. He has no cage mat right now. He DID have several...but he ripped them to shreds within the day of getting them.

I've tried letting him exercise outside on a 50' lead hooked to a maple tree while I'm doing livestock chores. I thought he was going to break his neck. And he dug a 3 foot wide, 2 foot deep hole in the yard to boot.

We've stopped going to training, hate to say. I'm so frustrated with it. Taking him there and having him behave SO WELL, then finding my house a mess when I dare leave for half an hour. I'm a SAHM, so 95% of the time I'm at home, but even still I can't keep him leashed to me 24/7. He's rarely crated and alone, and even less frequently for more than an hour. I've started to organize my schedule around when my husband is home, so the dog isn't alone, *but even that doesn't do any good*.

There HAS to be a solution I'm missing. I'm at my wits end. I'm rereading the novel I wrote and thinking "high energy"...but I have yet to find a way to actually tire him out for longer than ten minutes. Please help!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sounds like you have room/land....I would put up a small outdoor run - 10 x 15 - over concrete because you do not want him digging or eating gravel....and with a roof....maybe one of those AKC kennels they sell at the Farm Supply chains....so he can't rip the wire....

When you are not with him, he should be confined for his own safety!!! 

Lee


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> Sounds like you have room/land....I would put up a small outdoor run - 10 x 15 - over concrete because you do not want him digging or eating gravel....and with a roof....maybe one of those AKC kennels they sell at the Farm Supply chains....so he can't rip the wire....
> 
> When you are not with him, he should be confined for his own safety!!!
> 
> Lee


We've considered that. I'm terrified he'll find a way to bust out of it. The crate that's cobbled back together...that's heavy duty. I don't know what gauge the wire is, but it's twice the size of 12 gauge cage wire. He snapped some of it during his major Houdini effort. And injured himself.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think stopping the training was a BAD idea. It's about bonding time and mental stimulation for you dog. The reason he does so well is because it's when you really have him mentally and physically challenged/engaged. That's what he wants and needs and can make you HAPPY AND PROUD of him rather than (I'm guessing) angry and frustrated (at home).

Can you REALLY tire him out off leash. Swimming? Chuckit? Frisbee?





 




 
HERDING, any herding instructors in your area? Agility? Flyball?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

EAMom said:


> We've considered that. I'm terrified he'll find a way to bust out of it. The crate that's cobbled back together...that's heavy duty. I don't know what gauge the wire is, but it's twice the size of 12 gauge cage wire. He snapped some of it during his major Houdini effort. And injured himself.



I also would look into a well built outdoor kennel. There are kennels out here that can withstand your boys efforts.

As for dog crates....my Gus can get out of a wire crate in minutes if he wants to. Have you tried a plastic Vari type crate? Typically a tougher crate to destroy.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

be careful with the "defiant" label, dogs do not process emotions the same as humans. it sounds to me as tho he has had ENOUGH of the crate. crates are such an invaluable tool, but in a case like this, where a dog has basically been abused with confinement in a crate for way, way, way too long (before you got him), it is possible (I think), that he will never accept a crate. just went back and looked at your post, you've only had this poor guy eight weeks and he's had an entire prior lifetime of brain conditioning to absolutely HATE being crated. I think this will take a very long time, and it's likely a matter of trust, because it's not defiance. I am for sure not a training expert, but have a lifetime of experience with this breed. you will have to have more patience than you think you can dredge up to make this boy understand that you're not going to crate him up and leave him. please don't give up on him, i'm sure more training/behavioral tips will be coming. and you might want to consult with a behaviorist, which is different from a trainer. wishing you the best of luck, because re-homing this dog once again would be terrible for him, and ultimately down the line he would likely wind up in bad hands, since the fighters and bundlers are always looking for dogs with behavioral issues. if you can't fix it it would be much kinder to him to send him to the bridge with love, rather than pass the problem on and take a chance that he will meet with unsavory ends. wishing you much luck and sending a bit of extra patience energy to you. take care.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

katieliz has great advice about being patient and working thru this. The more your dog knows he's now in a stable life and won't be abandoned (in the crate) AGAIN, the more he'll start calming when he's left.

Bonding with you and your family. Stability. Exercise. TRAINING. all will help over time.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think stopping the training was a BAD idea.


I know it was. I can't afford it anymore. All of our disposable income has gone into dealing with him. The trainer suggested switching food might help, so our dog food bill tripled. I've been purchasing new cage mats two to three times a week. Replacing the cages, repairing the damage. I know I'm making excuses here, but there's only so much money in the bank account.

Not to mention, the absolute overwhelming frustration of him being so AWESOME at training, then ripping the house apart 4 hours later when I run up to the post office!



> Can you REALLY tire him out off leash. Swimming? Chuckit? Frisbee?
> 
> ...
> 
> HERDING, any herding instructors in your area? Agility? Flyball?


The last time I really honestly gave it my 100% effort, I spent 3 hours tiring him out. We walked/jogged 10 miles around our property and the abandoned farms/fields surrounding us. Then we played frisbee, and switched to a ball when he got bored with that. Took him inside and within half an hour he was raring to go again. I'm young and healthy and in pretty good shape, and this dog tires before I do.

My 11 year old tried a few days ago. She's like the energizer bunny, and couldn't outlast him. 

If he wasn't so dern big, I'd just let him and my 4 year old chase each other to kill two birds with one stone.

I've had other high energy dogs. NEVER like this guy, though. My dachs/huskie/GSD mix (who's 4) was the most high energy dog I'd had to date, but at least the kids and I could tag team him to exhaustion. 

You might be on to something with herding. I think he needs a JOB.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

yes, I had a dog once who could chew out of a chain link run. unreal. we did call him Houdini, even tho his name was nick. I think the plastic vari kennel might be workable (can you find out if the crate he was always in was wire?), and maybe start very, very slow and give him really smelly treats in the crate for very short periods of time when you're there??? like counter-conditioning? eight weeks is such a short period of time, I think being crated for so long so often will take a very long time to overcome. please don't stop the training, he so needs the bonding time and positive interaction. i'm sure you're angry at him a lot, since he's such a pain in the arse, and he can sense that too. they are so incredibly smart, and when the wiring gets crossed, well...i'm sure he tries your patience. don't give up on him yet.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

:welcome:

My sister and brother in law rescued a one year old Dobie who was abused by his previous owners, the least of their crimes being that he was crated 18 hours a day. Needless to say he had issues with being crated and had major SA as well which did lead to destructive behaviour, what they found worked very well was building a large pen in their basement. It was approx. 10'x8' and they used 2x4's and heavy gauge wire, it was large enough he could move around easily but was still contained in an area where nothing could be touched. Whether it's inside or outside, it sounds like he needs a concrete pad and heavy wire for his own safety, it's a good thing he hasn't seriously injured himself already. If you're really worried even run a hot wire on the top and bottom to ensure he knows to stay away from it

The size of the pen should hopefully not trigger any anxiety and he'll learn you leaving for a short period is not a bad thing. There are multiple threads regarding separation anxiety if you search for them. Start with baby steps, settle him in a down and turn your back on him. If he moves turn around and correct him gently and start over. Reward the calmness and progress to you taking one step away before releasing, then two steps, eventually leaving the room for 30 seconds, 2 minutes, etc. You need to counter condition the anxiety by replacing it with confidence that you will return. 

I wouldn't give up the training class, learning obedience and working through distractions in a class setting can only help and not hinder his progress. Also it would probably be worth contacting a behaviourist to see if they can get to the root of the problems

If you like the trainer you're currently using could you get them to come to your house for an hour or two and work with both of you on your home turf. The trainer should hopefully be able to give you pointers and work with both of you on correcting them properly. The more you show the dog what it CAN do then the bad behaviours should wane and hopefully disappear quickly.

Some tricks you could use for tiring him out include a flirt pole, bike rides (or even running beside an ATV if you have one), obedience games, fetch. It might not exhaust him but every little bit that takes the edge off is good, it sounds like he has *months* of energy pent up and needs to release it. Tie him to you with a 4' - 6' leash for the day and have him follow you around while you do your daily routine, it will keep him out of trouble and in eyesight as well as mentally work his mind as he keeps pace with you. Also you can work on very short 5 second obedience sessions throughout the day. Get him used to sitting on the mat in front of the sink while you're making dinner in the kitchen, sitting on the threshold of the door while you're doing laundry, etc.

As his energy is depleted more and more you should hopefully notice a change in his behaviour and he should become more manageable.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

how does he behave in the car? can you take him with you on short errands like the post office, to give him less opportunity to be his bad boy self? I understand about the $$ thing, can you do some of the stuff the classes taught at home. for this boy, it may be his brain that needs exercise, as well as his body. pretty hard to outlast these guys when they're young, I've got a almost 10 year old who could give an athlete a run for the money, lol.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

katieliz said:


> be careful with the "defiant" label, dogs do not process emotions the same as humans. it sounds to me as tho he has had ENOUGH of the crate. crates are such an invaluable tool, but in a case like this, where a dog has basically been abused with confinement in a crate for way, way, way too long (before you got him), it is possible (I think), that he will never accept a crate. just went back and looked at your post, you've only had this poor guy eight weeks and he's had an entire prior lifetime of brain conditioning to absolutely HATE being crated. I think this will take a very long time, and it's likely a matter of trust, because it's not defiance. I am for sure not a training expert, but have a lifetime of experience with this breed. you will have to have more patience than you think you can dredge up to make this boy understand that you're not going to crate him up and leave him. please don't give up on him, i'm sure more training/behavioral tips will be coming. and you might want to consult with a behaviorist, which is different from a trainer. wishing you the best of luck,* because re-homing this dog once again would be terrible for him, and ultimately down the line he would likely wind up in bad hands, since the fighters and bundlers are always looking for dogs with behavioral issues.* if you can't fix it it would be much kinder to him to send him to the bridge with love, rather than pass the problem on and take a chance that he will meet with unsavory ends. wishing you much luck and sending a bit of extra patience energy to you. take care.


Thank you for writing this.

When I came home this morning, I woke my husband up and told him to get rid of the dog. I was in tears and said some fairly unkind things (about the dog). 

I know that if I rehome him, he'll either be abused and die, or suffer and be euthanized, or just be euthanized. We need to deal with the problem ourselves, one way or another.

Gunner makes it so hard. I'm sitting on the couch next to his crate right now. And he's just lying there happily, looking at me. I can tell he's wondering why I'm angry, and what he could do to make me happy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm hoping you actually watched the videos I just posted on playing chuckit.

This is NOT like just throwing the ball. I feel like Wonder Woman I can throw the ball so much farther than normal. And my dogs run full out 100%. 15 min of chuckit can knock my dogs out. So a very small time investment from me shows a huge impact on my dogs.

But it really is a mix of that PLUS the mental stimultion of training and being active with me. Not everything costs money but I may have to take some time to learn new training methods.

Clicker training? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-intro-clicker-training-perfect-puppies.html


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

I am sitting here crying for this dog. if you can find the patience to continue on for a while longer, you may be rewarded with the best dog ever. bless your heart gunner. and thank you, eamom, for taking what I wrote in the right way, it's so hard on the internet to know how people will interpret difficult posts regarding euth as a kindness to prevent a dog from fates worse than death. 

sending you a huge bundle of patience...here it comes...whoosh. will check back later.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm hoping you actually watched the videos I just posted on playing chuckit.
> 
> This is NOT like just throwing the ball. I feel like Wonder Woman I can throw the ball so much farther than normal. And my dogs run full out 100%. 15 min of chuckit can knock my dogs out. So a very small time investment from me shows a huge impact on my dogs.
> 
> ...


Husband had a Chuck It for his dearly departed GSD. I haven't picked one up yet. It was on our list of toys to buy, then the destruction started. He gets bored "fetching" the same item, so we switch between frisbees, sticks, baseballs, and (his favorite) deflated kick balls. He gets the most joy out of having something thrown into the tall grass, so he has to hunt for it.

Ooooh the clicker! That was the first thing I purchased for him. He runs from it. I click, he whines and hides. He won't eat treats, either, so I can't condition him to not fear the clicker.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Personally I'd continue with the dog training if he were my dog. Even a basic dog training class sponsored by a training club, 4-H, etc is better than no training at all.

Also, if you get him a run, even with a roof & concrete flooring, I'd be ultra careful about leaving him for any length of time. My late Mac was also an escape artist, even kennels "guaranteed" to be escape proof were no problem for my Rin Tin Tin ... my vet thought she had escape proof kennels until she found him wandering around the hospital on more than one occasion while he was there for an illness. Wire crates, 700-P Vari-Kennels were a piece of cake for him!!! I was lucky ... once he got out of the crate all he did was climb up on the couch and nap until I got home!!! And finally I was "trained" to forget about crates and let him have freedom of the house!!!

Niki, my other escape artist was more of a problem ... he not only could get out of any of the popular crates, but he was able to unlock the windows, open them, push out the screen, jump into the yard and wait for me by the gate ... that really scared me. I had a friend build me a K-9 "jail" for him ... it weighed about 400 pounds ... however, a friend of mine needed it and by that time he was okay with freedom of the house and had stopped going outside to meet me so I never needed to use it.

Until you can get your boy under control and not doing damage in the house when he's loose, I'd recommend getting a "k-9 jail" of some type ... you can Google "heavy duty dog crate" or "police k-9 equipment" or maybe someone can make you an escape proof kennel. Here's an example of one company's crates which appear to be sturdy and might give you an idea of what to look for: Police K9 Equipment Military K9 Working Dog Equipment - Crates

GOOD LUCK!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

EAMom said:


> He gets the most joy out of having something thrown into the tall grass, so he has to hunt for it.


Teach him to track! It will mentally tire him out.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Teach him to track! It will mentally tire him out.


Absolutely! Even just take part of his kibble and toss it in the high grass for him to find, make him work for his dinner


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Wish you didn't spend much money on the crate mats. My dog also always shred them to pieces just because he was bored in the crate so no mats or toys in the crate for him. 

It looks like you have a dog that I used to have, very athletic, and more exercise only made her into a better athlete. I don't know who can afford to hike 10 miles, take a dog for 2 hrs swimming, 1 hrs of chuck it'ing, then let her nap for 30 min, and she was all ready for activity again. I couldn't afford it so tracking was my answer. You have property, he likes to find toys in the tall grass, you may be here onto something. 10 min of intense tracking WILL exhaust your dog same way just as 2 hrs of running after a ball, trust me I know.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Haha, we were posting at the same time!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I feel your pain! When I first adopted my weimaraner five yeas ago, she cost me THOUSANDS of dollars in damage to my house, my car, etc....I also went through three crates, and almost every last ounce of patience I had, before her SA even began to show signs of letting up. Many months later, things were better. A year or two later, things were much, much better. And today, she is an absolutely perfect dog.

Now, I'm sure you don't want to hear, well, five years from now...lol! But, my point is that all that frustration I felt was temporary and in the long run I am soooo glad I stuck it out with her. I wouldn't trade her for the world now.

My Jack (GSD) wasn't interested in treats, either, so I had trouble getting him started training. It helped a ton to stop letting him eat on his own, and start hand feeding him all of his dinner. He will work for treats now, where he wouldn't before.

As for tiring him out, I bought a golf cart! Shade suggested an ATV...same general idea. Good luck, hang in there, and keep us posted


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

EAMom said:


> I took him to training, which he excels at. When he's leashed, he does exactly as he's told. He responds well to commands. *However, he's "overly playful" toward my younger kids. I don't think it's more of a desire to play than a desire to hurt them. I caught him nipping at the baby and at my 4 year old (neither were injured). *The trainer instructed me to start keeping him in a crate.


Maybe I am misunderstanding what is hilighted? Have him on a leash and monitor any interactions with the kids especially with him nipping at them. 

I can understand being burned out on training costs and trying to repair damage. To help with training at home until you have your troublemaker  under control, check out BowWowFlix. Tons of training videos on there from obedience, tricks and more advanced.

2 ball fetch, chuck its, flirt poles - all good energy burners, mixing in ob commands will help increase the energy burn even more.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Wish you didn't spend much money on the crate mats. My dog also always shred them to pieces just because he was bored in the crate so no mats or toys in the crate for him.
> 
> It looks like you have a dog that I used to have, very athletic, and more exercise only made her into a better athlete. I don't know who can afford to hike 10 miles, take a dog for 2 hrs swimming, 1 hrs of chuck it'ing, then let her nap for 30 min, and she was all ready for activity again. I couldn't afford it so tracking was my answer. You have property, he likes to find toys in the tall grass, you may be here onto something. 10 min of intense tracking WILL exhaust your dog same way just as 2 hrs of running after a ball, trust me I know.


He's getting sores on his knees from being in the crate overnight. I thought mats would help. And they did...just as a pile of batting, rather than a mat.

Husband says he has a book on tracking. I'll dig into that. This dog is well beyond the intelligence level I'm accustomed to (or, honestly, like) in dogs. T-dog is a sharp pup, but he's more or less a lazy sixth child who runs off possums and lies on my lap when he's tired. Gunner is so smart it's almost scary.



Twyla said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding what is hilighted? Have him on a leash and monitor any interactions with the kids especially with him nipping at them.
> 
> I can understand being burned out on training costs and trying to repair damage. To help with training at home until you have your troublemaker  under control, check out BowWowFlix. Tons of training videos on there from obedience, tricks and more advanced.
> 
> 2 ball fetch, chuck its, flirt poles - all good energy burners, mixing in ob commands will help increase the energy burn even more.


We didn't have him crated before that (because he hated it). That's why we forced the crate, and when all the REAL problems started.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

EAMom said:


> However, he's "overly playful" toward my younger kids. I don't think it's more of a desire to play than a desire to hurt them. I caught him nipping at the baby and at my 4 year old (neither were injured). The trainer instructed me to start keeping him in a crate.
> 
> 
> > I'd be more concerned about this than all the rest.
> ...


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Suggestions here I've used myself and can recommend:
-Tether dog to you as you move around and do chores
-Throw kibble in grass if he is food motivated
-monitor interactions with kids. He's likely too energetic and edgy right now to have pleasant interactions.

Other suggestions to tire dog:
-Buy a flrt pole. Best $15 I've ever spent. You can work obedience into the flirt pole session since you retain control of the toy all the time. 
-Hide and seek with toys. Put dog in a down stay, show the toy to him and walk off to hide it. Start somewhere obvious and easy. Say the fetch toy command you use, and reward if he finds it. I think it's a bit more tiring than finding a tossed ball in tall grass since there's a bit more thinking involved
-Youtube tricks that you can train. There's a user called Tab...soemthing and he has a german shepherd. 
-Jolly eGGe ball. This toy will allow dog to play with himself if you get started with it. Usually I race my dog to the ball and throw it around a few times, and then she's engaged enough to tire herself out for the next 30 mins. Works better on hard surfaces.
-Food balls. For the first year of her life, Puppy didn't eat her meals from a bowl. This was yet anothjer opportunity to wear her out a little more. 

I think sufficient exercise is absolutely key. My dog gets destructive at home without exercise as well. Another thing you might consider is clearing out a room to house the dog. My puppy isn't crated whne I'm away, but is confined in a basically empty basement. This may help with the crate crazies.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My male that I got at the animal shelter was similar to this. I say was, because he did settle down quite a bit, but it took lots of time. This is what happens when someone gets a dog and has no clue what to do with it, this is not the dogs fault. As I watch mine change daily into what I know he can be, I feel nothing but pride. Its hard, its trying, it will make you cry, but you must move forward and do right by the dog. Training is the key, get him in classes and work him a few times a day at short intervals. Teach him what you want him to do. I wouldn't trust him in an outdoor kennel, I've seen mine pull a 10 X 20 run a few feet, so it can be done. You have to build trust with him and training does that.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

Probably not applicable right now, but in my experience the best way to absolutely run a dog into the ground is to literally run them into the ground following at heel while you bicycle. Here's two of my heeler mutts...










Not practical to do while on a leash though, but if a dog walks reliably at heel my experience has been it will readily do the same for you on a bike, just at a running rather than a walking pace. Dogs LOVE to run, and an average person on a bike can tire out a running dog in no time as far as a flat-out sprint. A more moderate pace though they can run for miles, these two having put in as many as twenty miles at a time.

In the meantime I am very sorry to hear of the problems you are having, six hundred dollars in damage expenses in just a few weeks is no small thing.

Birdwatcher


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

not a big fan of "running them into the ground". he's young and there's too much possibility of injury. op has already said it's next to impossible to physically tire him out for any reliable length of time. sounds more like he's got too much brain energy. i would also be concerned about the "nipping" at the kids, i don't think right now there should be any exposure to kids. imho, when a dog has had abuse in the past, it'll likely take way longer than 8 weeks and maybe even 8 months to get on top of their behavior. and it'll take real dedication and love. one thing you can do, and i think it's pretty important, is to see his behavior as a handicap which comes from his prior life of abuse, and surely not defiant. i'd be real careful to not assign human emotions to him, because no matter how smart they are, they're wired different and are more creatures of habit or instinct, and not emotion, as we experience it. again, i'm not a trainer, but it seems to me that along with the physical and mental exercise, this dog will need consistency, limits, understanding, and kindness. and you'll have to help him help himself by not allowing him in situations where he will fail. a tall order, i know. thinking of you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think the nipping at the kids is his herding instinct. You can get him into herding so that he has a job and knows its not herding the kids. You can so get him a toy that he loves and get him to the point that he grabs that toy when he is feeling anxious. A toy worked wonders for mine when I was working with him with the cats.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If it were me I would:

- Construct a crate out of heavy gage wire panels or purchase a large heavy duty welded steel or aluminum crate. No chewing or destroying this one.

- Place crate in a low to no traffic area where his barking cannot bother anyone such as the basement or garage. Crate train the dog again starting from scratch, make it posative but non negotiable.

- Exercise / train regularly have him out with the family in a specific spot. (train place command)

- Purchase a bark collar to be worn in the crate if barking does not cease in a week or two after following the previous steps.


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## stewie (Sep 4, 2013)

Bummer to hear about all this.

I've had a dog like yours many years ago, completely wild. Once in her crate she would cry and bark for hours until we came home. While we were home, she was a cleptomaniac, find a shoe and hide it...pick up the remote and put it in a closet etc.

We tried taking her to obedience school and it was useless. She was fine with other dogs, but the amount of energy she had was unreal. I can remember letting her out to pee every morning before I headed out to school and getti g her inside was an eternal struggle, she thought it was a game and would run from me. Was quite irritating...

What I found that worked was to put a pinch collar on her, and every 2 hours I'd take her down to the basement rec room and give her 15 min lessons. Nice and short, not enough to stress her out, but enough that she would learn the commands after a few days. When she got really wild we would leave the pinch collar on while inside the house and if she did something wrong we'd give her a tug and straighten her out (as told by the trainer).

Just be kind, firm, and fair with the dog. Give it lots of praise when it's good, correct him when he's wrong. Like I said, I love pinch collars, a good tug will correct the dog and let him know immediately what's not to be tolerated.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

EAMom said:


> Husband had a Chuck It for his dearly departed GSD. I haven't picked one up yet. It was on our list of toys to buy, then the destruction started. He gets bored "fetching" the same item, so we switch between frisbees, sticks, baseballs, and (his favorite) deflated kick balls. He gets the most joy out of having something thrown into the tall grass, so he has to hunt for it.
> 
> Ooooh the clicker! That was the first thing I purchased for him. He runs from it. I click, he whines and hides. He won't eat treats, either, so I can't condition him to not fear the clicker.


You don't need to use a clicker to clicker train! Saying "Yes" in place of it. Or use a whistle with a soft short blast. Any noise that is consistent to show him there is a reward coming. What does he LOVE? It doesn't have to always be a food treat – it could be a toy, a good cuddle, a tug, a door opening, or anything else he wants. 

As far as treats (since I've found it so much easier to use some of them to train and then fade them), try different really smelly yummy stuff. I had a husky once who would practically do back flips for raw baby carrots. And, it might help for him to be kinda hungry when you try as well. Try bits of hot dog, tuna, lunch meat, smelly cheese, whatever might trip his trigger. Even if it's horrible junk food, it's a start, and you can work with him then.

Mental stimulation... that's a huge part of wearing a dog out. Braining (okay, I mean using the brain to think etc, but I like saying braining) is more tiring than people might think! Don't feed from a bowl ever. Make him work for his food. Hide it in the grass, use puzzle toys, google for food toys for dogs, use any ideas you can to make him use his brain to help wear himself out mentally.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I am not a fan of having dogs working for food all the time and never have a normal meal from a bowl. Let the dog eat in peace and find other ways to reward. My dog is not food oriented and he works for a toy, praise, at this point for eyes contact and smile. 

Have you tried teaching your dog down stay on a mat for longer periods of time? It may teach the dog to relax outside of the crate and be in the room with you without bugging anyone. I would teach it using positive methods but then proof it with physical corrections. 

Teaching tracking. You don't have to use food for that unless you are going to do structured SchH tracking. I never used food. Start from short easy tracks, teach him to indicate articles, then you can move to long and aged tracks. Something that is free and easy to give it a try.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find a trainer/behaviourist. be consistent in your training.
there's crates on the market that he can't get out of. if you
build him a kennel it has to be heavy duty so he can't dig out, 
climb out, bite his way out, etc.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

I'm getting very demoralized over here. Looking for a behaviorist double-time, and having a hard time finding one.

I've bee talking to friends who work with dogs, and keep hearing that white GSDs are often problems. I don't know if it's true, or if they've just gotten a bad rep, but hearing it is really wearing me down.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

katieliz said:


> not a big fan of "running them into the ground". he's young and there's too much possibility of injury. op has already said it's next to impossible to physically tire him out for any reliable length of time.


Actually, most of us barely scratch the surface of what an ordinary dog is capable of endurance-wise. Dog sledders do, so do those who run hound packs. I can pretty much guarantee you that if they could run that dog hard for ten or fifteen miles (about an hour on a bike) he'd be out for a good while afterwards 

Before I started running my heelers this way I looked into it from aquaintances on the 'net who are variously serious dog sledders or serious hound men. The consensus was an unloaded grown dog on hard pavement was no problem. At least it hasn't been for mine. A real eye-opener was the sort of mileage the serious hound-men were putting on their dogs; hours at a time, at night, chasing a vehicle.

Much depends on the dog of course, the beauty of heelers (Australian Cattle Dogs) in Texas at least, is that they are really a "type" rather than a "breed" (much as Jack Russells still were in my youth). The epitome of that sort of dog being the present-day Australian kelpie which IIRC still has no physicial breed standard, kelpies being selected purely for functional herding ability. 

Like that, around here on ranches "heelers" come in various shapes and sizes around a general type, but all can work cattle which is all most ranchers who have 'em care about. So, IME, once a good heeler understands it "job" is to run at heel with the bike it will do so joyfully, to the point you have to watch you don't injure or kill them, cycling being one of the few endeavors where even an average human has an advantage over a dog. 

Unfortunately, now that AKC types are inbreeding heelers on the basis of appearance, this will change, at least in some.

All academic in this case of course.

Birdwatcher


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

EAMom said:


> I'm getting very demoralized over here. Looking for a behaviorist double-time, and having a hard time finding one.
> 
> I've bee talking to friends who work with dogs, and keep hearing that white GSDs are often problems. I don't know if it's true, or if they've just gotten a bad rep, but hearing it is really wearing me down.


One thing to keep in mind is that a dog is supposed to be a useful addition to the household, a real asset to the family. 

You have already gone above and beyond to help this dog. I'm not advising you to quit, but if you eventually need to, you should be able to do so without undue remorse.

It is useful to recall that the old-time dog breeders, who developed the awesome breeds we have today, actually culled quite ruthlessly when they had to.

Birdwatcher


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Oh wow. Why don't we just have a smiley here with a sign 'PTS' so we can just click on it. Dog has to much energy? Click, PTS! Dog is too much for the owner? Click! Owners do not have money? Click! Dog is getting old? Click! Barked? Click! Not a useful addition anymore so no remorse. Click, click, click!

Unbelievable...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

gs07, that's kinda a extreme interpretation of what people are saying. but i will reiterate that there are fates worse than death.

eamom, with all due respect to your dog friends...no, in general white gsd's do not have temperament/behavioral issues. in general, dogs who are crated abusively and given no direction or socialization or training for the first however many months of their lives, and when said dogs are inherently very intelligent dogs, they develop abnormal coping behaviors. please, if you possibly can, get yourself out of the negativity zone and give gunner time and control his environment such that he doesn't have the opportunity to get himself into trouble. is it going to be hard? effin a, it's likely gonna be hard. only you know what you've got left to give, only you can make the decision to throw in the towel. but as long as you haven't thrown in the towel, try as hard as you possibly can to focus on a more positive mindset with your boy, or you are setting him up for failure. they read us. like books. take care, thinking of you. didn't know he was white. got a big white boy myself, great dog.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

I am having a similar problem now with my new schutzhund pup. He is 10 months old and full of drive. Nothing like any of my other gsd's. A lot of fun on the schutzhund field, not so much to live with. He has destroyed 5 vari kennels to date. I finally invested money in an aluminum crate. You can find some in the $400 range. The also have metal type ones at Cabella's - hunting stores used to crate hunting dogs. The aluminum crate I purchased was built by Owens. Check them out - they are much stronger and built to contain some high drive dogs. I also agree with the suggestion regarding tracking and investing in an outside run. The tracking will exercise his mind and hopefully settle him down for when he is crated. Oh and deer antlers have given me peace, although I don't allow him to have it unless I am watching him.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It's not just about the last posting. It's like almost in every other thread that I try to read there is this suggestion, oh, you did everything you could so go ahead, don't blame yourself. We are humans, we can think and at least try to come up with the solution that is better than death or worse.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Breeders of old did cull heavily, however this is not a pup its an adult dog who is in no danger of entering the gene pool..I assume. This problem can be easily remedied with some common sense solutions. Keep it simple.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

gsd07, i totally understand where you're comin' from. i'm just seeing too much of the "worse than death" stuff lately, and know how few actual legitimate resources there are for these dogs and how hard it is to find them. so many dogs like this are passed hand to hand until, sooner or later, they meet a difficult and painful end.

the thing that particularly bothers me about this situation is the short, short length of time this poor guy has had to adjust. there is really no way to know what his "baseline" potential is until he's had the length of time HE needs to either get over his neuroses from the abuse...or not. i so hope eamom can move into a more positive frame of mind and give him the chance.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

read the heading for this thread again and just want to add that it's (imho) not a matter of "controlling" him, it's a matter of understanding him and what a huge commitment to patience having a dog like this is. not saying here that he doesn't need limits, training, and even an evaluation by a behaviorist, but it's not a "control" issue, and making it one might lead to even more problems.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

One thing I see in these politically-correct times is lots of conscientious dog owners sadly burdened with animals that add very little to their lives and indeed can be a postive burden to own. Just go to your local dog park and watch. 

Dogs, wonderful as they can be, are animals, not people. 

To add context to my view....

Eleven years back, our first heeler/sheepdog mutt at one year old. The little Jack Russel mix on the end just passed on six months back, the rat terrier in the middle sadly disappeared from the yard while under the care of a house-sitter. All three dogs seen here in "down-stay" mode.










And here she is again in New Mexico, two years back, keeping an eagle eye on a lurking coyote after guarding the camp all night on a frigid night in temperatures down in the teens. The best dog we have ever owned, one of those dogs that will study you closely in order to figure out the most useful thing to do. Sadly, she is beginning to grow old, we will never find another like her.










Here's out heeler/stumpy-tailed cattle dog mix (that latter breed not much known outside of Australia, basically its a taller, leggier version of a heeler) seen here seven years back a at one year of age, in "sit-stay" mode...










Me and the same dog last year driving cross country (the fur of the little heeler, also sleeping, visible in the background) my wife took the pic... 










Finally, our most recent addition, at nine months, seems like every pic looks like this , here she is awaiting a command, any command. I think she is expecting me to throw the camera so she can fetch it....











The point being that every one of these dogs was/is an joy to be around, adding immeasurably to our family. But if I had a dog that destroyed every crate I put it in, racked up $600 in damages, nipped my children AND required I that construct an expensive escape-proof outside run just to accomodate its neuroses, I could have a vet humanely slip it a needle in a heartbeat.

I'm not recommending the owner do that, I am saying that there comes a point where you CAN do that with a clear conscience.

I figure for every problem dog there's a great dog somewhere out there needing a home.

JMHO,
Birdwatcher


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Of course, you CAN. It doesn't take a lot to discard an inconvenient animal. You stick a needle into a dog, others dump him into a shelter, nothing to brag about so loudly. 

Just a suggestion. Never ever get a drivey GSD, please stick to the kind of dogs you had and know how to handle.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Of course, you CAN. It doesn't take a lot to discard an inconvenient animal. You stick a needle into a dog, others dump him into a shelter, nothing to brag about so loudly.
> 
> Just a suggestion. Never ever get a drivey GSD, please stick to the kind of dogs you had and know how to handle.


He wasn't "drivey" when we got him. I know you weren't attacking, but I don't think I really mentioned it before. He came home and was mellow. Loads of energy to play, really loved to run with us, but would come in and sit quietly at my feet. I fell in love. Honeymoon wore off. I'm living with the Incredible Hulk, and he's a big white ball of muscle and slobber.

We're giving it one last go. I've let myself slack off for 2 days. Good for the dog? I don't know. Good for me mentally? Definitely. 

Next Wednesday, I'm taking him to a behaviorist (I think?) in Wisconsin who came highly recommended by a GSD rescue. It's pricey, and we really don't have the money for it. But at least this way we'll know we got a second professional opinion on the dog's mental state.

We did fall in love with him, and he is a part of our family. We're not going to put him down without making sure he's gotten a fair shake. I can always make more money, but I can't undo regret.

I'm going to be putting him on a training schedule until then. I'm not a dog trainer by any means, but I can watch videos and follow instructions and muddle through pushing him forward. We're going to do 20 minutes of on-leash training followed by 30 minutes of play exercise every 3 hours during the day. He'll get his usual 2 hours of off-leash time at night with husband and I after the kids and livestock are put to bed.

Out, potty, train, eat, play, crate, out, potty, train, play, etc etc.

I caught him herding my chickens today - it had never dawned on me that all his obnoxious nipping/chasing/barking behaviors were a herding instinct, so thanks to everyone who pointed that out. Maybe I need to get some geese with clipped wings and let him run them around the yard.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

EAMom, my comment wasn't directed at you, sorry I wasn't clear. The dog can be drivey and also can have an off switch and be a couch potato at home. It's not your case, of course, since you dog has unlimited amount of energy. 

You need to engage his mind and you do not need to increase the amount of physical excercise he is getting. You have to understand that a healthy GSD is a powerful machine, he will adjust to any exercise quickly and if your don't engage his mind you will find yourself in the worse starting point since your dog exercise needs will be even greater. A working GSD can run 30km at a time. Can you do it every day?

Do ten minutes of training multiple times a day, and the reward for training will be play exercise. Do obedience, then as a reward let him find a toy in the grass, really hide it well. In the house train him to settle on a mat, not just put him into crate, and enforce it. Down stay is a must command for you.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

*Just a suggestion. Never ever get a drivey GSD, please stick to the kind of dogs you had and know how to handle.*

Actually, my dogs were carefully chosen, which account may be of interest to this dog crowd so bear with me. 

I live and work (high school teacher) in a higher crime area of a big city, a 'hood if you will.

Those two little white terriers were our first dogs here, chosen primarily as trainable burgular alarms, white so we could see them in the dark. The little guy was a Jack Russel/Toy Fox mix. Anyone who remembers the original Jack Russels knows that they were nuts, true working terriers. Toy Fox terriers however are among the most easily trainable of the terriers, tho’ distinctly fragile. When I saw this mix advertised in the paper (accident at the breeders) I went and got him right away. Worked out exactly right; a tough, trainable little 9lb terrier. Incidentally Sparky was our only dog ever to draw blood in our defense; an obnoxious drunk at the park who reached into my wife’s car. 

Rat terriers are the classic Southern “fiests”, not as game as classic “earth dog” terriers, actually multipurpose squirrel, rabbit and rat dogs. So we ended up with two tough little dogs that sounded the alarm around the house but which could also run for miles behind a mountain bike or hike all day.

The heeler/sheepdog mix is a classic South Texas ranch mutt, recognizable instantly to rural Texans as a representative of the type. Actually at Gettysburg one summer a visitor from New Zealand approached us and asked if the dog was from there, Texas herding dogs having Australian roots after all. We found that dog for sale as a hookworm-infested puppy in a filthy roadside pen, from which she was looking at the world with the exact same interested expression you see in the pic. The best $15 we ever spent.

The big heeler/stumpy-tail cattle dog came from an Italian millionaire with a local 1,000 acre ranch and horse breeding concern, both the dog’s parents were brung in from Australia. Working cow dogs but the puppies technically not pedigrees. 

The newest heeler came from a ranch North of Dallas, we actually had to make a 600 mile round trip to pick her up; not very often you need to go that far to find a heeler in Texas. 

The primary purpose of our heelers is burgulary and home invasion deterrents. They do not have to be shutzhund trained or anything like that to be effective in this role as your average big-city delinquent is typically afraid of ANY dog. Because mine sit, stay, walk at heel and bark at strangers knocking on the door the local thugs also assume that they MUST be attack trained too 

Actually they have scarcely ever seen a word in anger, but I do not rely on them for actual defense should the need arise (tho’ of course anything they could contribute along those lines would be welcome).

A downside of living where I do is that obvious pedigrees attract attention, including theft and poisoning. German shepherds are obvious pedigrees, expensive for good ones, and as a breed replete with behavioral and genetic pitfalls. Fortunately here in Texas, actual working lines of heelers are common and inexpensive, nobody cares much about papers or exact appearance, just the ability of the dog. Similar to what prototypical German shepherds were once upon a time, but somewhat smaller.

We try to buy our dogs from April thru June, this so I can have the puppy with me most days all day for the entire two-month summer vacation. During this time it is purposefully brought everywhere with an eye to complete socialization and ease in a wide variety of public settings.

Working heelers are pretty “drivey” dogs too, and not for everyone, but primarily towards the end of not being at all intimidated while using their teeth as persuaders to move herds of 1,000 lb-plus range cattle, this aggression tho' not generally aimed at humans. 

But I’ll freely admit, If I couldn’t raise and thoroughly socialize a drivey GSD as we do and end up with a dog that wasn’t pleasant to have around the house and which wasn’t an undue liability to the general public, then yes, I oughtta stay away from ‘em. But then, so should everyone I expect.

*Of course, you CAN. It doesn't take a lot to discard an inconvenient animal. You stick a needle into a dog, others dump him into a shelter, nothing to brag about so loudly.*

Stating what needs to be said is hardly bragging. And really, unless you are willing to take in the inconvenient animal in question yourself one probably should withhold judgement.

Just to state the obvious; taking in the dog yourself would be an unreasonable amount of inconvenience to expect you to bear.

And I suppose since I’m being slandered by inference, I should point out that we have taken in two “inconvenient” dogs over the years to save them from the pound. One rat terrier and one working (hog dog) pit bull. Placed ‘em both in good homes, although that PITA rat terrier was with us for more than a year :crazy: 

Birdwatcher


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's not excuses. The dog has caused 600 dollars worth of damage in just 8 weeks. I don't know too many people that can swallow that just with a fingersnip. That is some serious damage within a few weeks.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> *Just a suggestion. Never ever get a drivey GSD, please stick to the kind of dogs you had and know how to handle.*


This has nothing to do with drive. Just saying...


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> EAMom, my comment wasn't directed at you, sorry I wasn't clear. The dog can be drivey and also can have an off switch and be a couch potato at home. It's not your case, of course, since you dog has unlimited amount of energy.


I understand it wasn't and no offense was taken. I just wanted to mention that when we brought him home, for 2 weeks he was "perfect dog." I'd read of this phenomena, and jumped right on obedience with him. I didn't want him to get comfy and begin to think he ran the show. 



> You need to engage his mind and you do not need to increase the amount of physical excercise he is getting. You have to understand that a healthy GSD is a powerful machine, he will adjust to any exercise quickly and if your don't engage his mind you will find yourself in the worse starting point since your dog exercise needs will be even greater. A working GSD can run 30km at a time. Can you do it every day?


HA! Not a chance.

How do I engage his mind? He knows basic commands. He does sit-stay and down-stay. He gets anxious for me to free him, but it's not a major challenge. We're increasing the length of the stay, but it's not having much effect.

We did some running and jumping on-leash. I pushed him a little past frustration (his, not mine) and then let him stop. He's pretty calm in his crate right now, but I'm not expecting that to last for long.



> Do ten minutes of training multiple times a day, and the reward for training will be play exercise. Do obedience, then as a reward let him find a toy in the grass, really hide it well. In the house train him to settle on a mat, not just put him into crate, and enforce it. Down stay is a must command for you.


Thanks for the tips!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Birdwatcher said:


> I should point out that we have taken in two “inconvenient” dogs over the years to save them from the pound. One rat terrier and one working (hog dog) pit bull. Placed ‘em both in good homes, although that PITA rat terrier was with us for more than a year :crazy:
> 
> Birdwatcher


 See, you couldn't follow you own advice so you found new homes for the 'inconvenient' dogs you rescued. You have a hope in my eyes  

Drive in a GSD does not equal prey only. A correct GSD will have good amounts of aggression and confidence in them, and they are capable of doing a lot of damage so the drives have to be channeled properly. If someone doesn't have the skills and knowledge and williness to understand how to handle drives of a big dog, they do need to stay away from this breed because they will ruin a perfect animal and they will create a monster.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> This has nothing to do with drive. Just saying...


 I knowk, and the OP knows. I wasn't talking about the OP situation here, it was kinda off track more generalized converstation with the other poster. My point was, a GSD is not a jack russel (I love jack russells but they are just very different).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I knowk, and the OP knows. I wasn't talking about the OP situation here, it was kinda off track more generalized converstation with the other poster. My point was, a GSD is not a jack russel (I love jack russells but they are just very different).


Ah okay. Didn't catch that. And yes. Jack Russels are waaaay up in another alley than the GSD's.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Here's an example of an exercise from personal experience. Show my dog a toy, tell him to stay on a mat, leave the house and hide the toy on the property, come inside and do whatever I am doing. After 10-30-40-60 min release my dog and tell him to go and find the toy. He does have to work in order to do it (I hid the toy in the grass, under buckets, whatever I could think of). He finds the toy, we play, we do quick obedience, we go inside. The dog gets that being calm is rewarded heavily, and that being quiet near your side is rewarded.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a perfect downstay. Your dog can turn, sleep, whatever, but he has to stay on the mat. He can't get up and leave, if he tries you bring him back, and after this is learned, you correct any attempt of leaving before the release. Start doing it when your dog is tired so instead of putting him in a create tell him to stay on a mat.


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> It's not excuses. The dog has caused 600 dollars worth of damage in just 8 weeks. I don't know too many people that can swallow that just with a fingersnip. That is some serious damage within a few weeks.


It is. And we honestly can't afford it. But I can't just give up on him. I've done a lot of moaning about what he does wrong, but what he does RIGHT is the reason I won't just kick him to the curb. The most important thing to me is that the dog be willing to protect my family, particularly my little ones.

I took Gunner to the vet 2 days after we got him. The baby was in her car seat on the floor next to me, and another patron reached down to tickle her feet. Gunner put his face over her - no growling, barking or posturing, just covering her to keep a stranger from touching her. The man laughed that no one was going to hurt the baby with that kind of dog defending her.

We just need to figure out how to fix the rest of it, so he can be that kind of family companion all the time.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Of course, you CAN. It doesn't take a lot to discard an inconvenient animal. You stick a needle into a dog, others dump him into a shelter, nothing to brag about so loudly.
> 
> Just a suggestion. Never ever get a drivey GSD, please stick to the kind of dogs you had and know how to handle.


Yep. I don't know (and don't want to find out) what it would take for me to think of getting rid of my dog but it def won't be damage to my things, no matter how much damage he does. 

I think even if he bit me i'd make excuses and blame myself to no end. 

If he bit someone else i'd be heartbroken and would never have him out without a muzzle and a leash. I really don't know what he'd have to do for me to think of getting rid of him. 

I'm not judging anyone, everyone has their limits. But Birdwatcher, IMO it shouldn't be that easy to get rid of an animal. Who said they should be pure joy? They're def a lot of work along with the joy and it's not fair to get rid of them once they're an inconvenience. 

Maybe think it thru before getting one if you're not sure of yourself? 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

EAMom, after reading this topic I myself got a flirt pole (made one, very easy, here's the tip i used)








And I also tied a string to his ball and use it like a flirt pole. 

I didn't expect much, I thought he'd play with it for a few mins and get bored. 

Omg, he loves it!!! And so do all the dogs at the park. I think I will see a bunch of flirt poles and balls on string tonight. 

Try it, it's a lot of fun and they go crazy


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Here's an example of an exercise from personal experience. Show my dog a toy, tell him to stay on a mat, leave the house and hide the toy on the property, come inside and do whatever I am doing. After 10-30-40-60 min release my dog and tell him to go and find the toy. He does have to work in order to do it (I hid the toy in the grass, under buckets, whatever I could think of). He finds the toy, we play, we do quick obedience, we go inside. The dog gets that being calm is rewarded heavily, and that being quiet near your side is rewarded.
> 
> Actually, it doesn't have to be a perfect downstay. Your dog can turn, sleep, whatever, but he has to stay on the mat. He can't get up and leave, if he tries you bring him back, and after this is learned, you correct any attempt of leaving before the release. Start doing it when your dog is tired so instead of putting him in a create tell him to stay on a mat.


Thank you for this, will try as well


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

*See, you couldn't follow you own advice so you found new homes for the 'inconvenient' dogs you rescued.*

Well, In that time interval there were two others, both found strays taken in like the pit was, that eventually DID go to the pound after some months, both for persistent aggression issues, to our dogs and to people. We felt we had no reasonable alternative.

OK, more dog talk with the understanding that folks here are dog people and do not mind reading this stuff...

The rat terrier we found a home for had been owned by an elderly couple that were patients of my wife (home health). Since they got it the dog had almost never been outside, or socialized with other dogs. So much so it customarily went to the bathroom in their bathroom, on newpaper. The people died within a month of each other and we ended up with the dog and two cats.

All our dogs are trustworthy off-leash, responsive to verbal commands. They have to be, or else walking all three at a time is problematic. That rat terrier was a sweet dog, but completely loopy outside, and would just run aimlessly in random directions :crazy: Never could take in anywhere without a leash. Fortunately we have tile floors, and by crating we did get it eventually to learn to poop in the back yard most of the time. But, a year later another elderly patient was looking for a dog, and there he sits at present, being hand-fed bacon and stuff 

The pit bull was abandoned by the roadside along with a pile of construction trash at maybe six months old. By the color pattern and build I'm pretty sure it was bred by a group of local poachers who used their pits to hunt feral hogs (I had seen them and their dogs in the woods several times over the years). The present owner had just lost his previous pit to choking on a tennis ball and was happy to get this one. Though still un-nuetered, the aggression levels of this dog are so low my friend feels it was prpbably abandoned because it didn't cut it as a catch dog.

Anyhoo....

I did not suggest a Jack Russel was remotely like a GSD, in their original state they were like the more obscure breeds of unspoiled working terriers (Patterdales etc...) that purists still have today. My object in jumping at the chance to get a known Russel/Toy Fox mix was a gamble to get the better qualities of both, as it turned out we got lucky  Sparky would sit, stay, come when you called him and walk reliably off-leash at heel, but was still an ornery little cuss 

Heelers, being a high energy, aggressive herding breed are prob'ly much closer to GSD's, but have not to my knowledge been ever been bred for security work. Sadly, a watered-down bred-for-looks AKC version ("Australian cattle dog") seems to be slowly catching on, but in the meantime for anyone close to Western ranching country they still represent an excellent source of unspoiled prototypical working dogs.

Here's our two again, this time in NY State (Whiteface Mt.), leashed here because circumstance required it...










After a few visits with these pretty much all my relatives up there wanted heelers too. Here's the one we bought for my sister and her kids some years back, seen here playing with our latest (the grey one). Both these dogs are ostensibly "pedigrees". Note the variability of form, my sister's dog remsembling a big-headed mini-rottweiler, the beauty of it being heelers are still more of a heterogeneous "type" rather than a uniform "breed". 

Some are born naturally short-tailed, as two of my dogs were, others have tails (like my sister's dog did), but were docked. The logic of that is so the tail doesn't get stepped on while the dog is amid milling cattle, a pity because they generally have fine brushy tails.



















Anyways the point of all this is, my sister works around livestock back east, and was backed into the corner of a stall one day by a cantankerous beef cow that wouldn't quit, polled but persistently butting. To the point that serious injury or even death seemed imminent.

Hero dog there heard her shouting, ran in, jumped on the cow's neck and commenced to attacking it around the ears. Cow backed off and ran outside. Hey, he was worth every penny 

Birdwatcher


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Here's an example of an exercise from personal experience. Show my dog a toy, tell him to stay on a mat, leave the house and hide the toy on the property, come inside and do whatever I am doing. After 10-30-40-60 min release my dog and tell him to go and find the toy. He does have to work in order to do it (I hid the toy in the grass, under buckets, whatever I could think of). He finds the toy, we play, we do quick obedience, we go inside. The dog gets that being calm is rewarded heavily, and that being quiet near your side is rewarded.


I tried this last night. I've seen videos where the trainers will carry the toy, and that distracted him too much to go through some obedience while waiting for the toy.

This morning, I gave him a command, hid the ball (not well, but I don't know if he really understands "find it" yet when he doesn't see where it went). Worked a lot on "leave it" since that's his biggest problem. We did this for about half an hour, until we were doing 5 minutes of commands before his release.

He's idly chewing apart the ball right now.  I wish I knew why he does that, but will remember to put it UP next time. At least popped kick balls aren't expensive.

He broke out of his cage again this morning while husband was in the shower and I was water the animals. Ran straight to my 4 year old (still in bed) to play. The cage wasn't really secured since he'd last been out, so I'm not too angry about it. Another thing I need to remember to do before I go outside.



> Actually, it doesn't have to be a perfect downstay. Your dog can turn, sleep, whatever, but he has to stay on the mat. He can't get up and leave, if he tries you bring him back, and after this is learned, you correct any attempt of leaving before the release. Start doing it when your dog is tired so instead of putting him in a create tell him to stay on a mat.


Can I start with a larger "mat"? I've got a 6x8 area rug in the living room. Or should I try a yoga mat?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

You can start with larger mat but you need to make him understand what is expected from him. A yoga mat is kinda narrow for him to be comfortable. I used bathroom rugs. The good thing is that if he learns this you can bring the mat anywhere, simply tell him 'go to your mat' and he will go and stay there until you release. It will take time but it is possible. I'm sure there are other people here who know more about mat training, I'm describing just what I used personally. 

If he is a chewer, he needs something to chew on. Maybe, a raw bone, or antlers?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I found an old pic with a mat work


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> You can start with larger mat but you need to make him understand what is expected from him. A yoga mat is kinda narrow for him to be comfortable. I used bathroom rugs. The good thing is that if he learns this you can bring the mat anywhere, simply tell him 'go to your mat' and he will go and stay there until you release. It will take time but it is possible. I'm sure there are other people here who know more about mat training, I'm describing just what I used personally.


Sounds good, thanks!



> If he is a chewer, he needs something to chew on. Maybe, a raw bone, or antlers?


He rips/tugs. He likes to hold something down with his front paws and pull up - so only stretchy items will do. He turns his nose up at bones. I've tried playing tug-of-war with him as an alternate outlet, and end up being dragged across the yard the moment he really gets into it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Oh my gosh, he plays tug that's wonderful! First you need to teach him 'out' so the dragging stops, and then the play will be enjoyable for both of you. Here's the best and the cheapest tug toy and retrieve toy ever: pieces of garden hose. I had an old green garden hose in the garage and was cutting two pieces at a time for my dog to play with. As they were getting destroyed I was cutting another piece. Best toy ever, and you can do so many training things with those chunks of hose!


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

> Maybe think it thru before getting one if you're not sure of yourself?


We have three in the house long-term for the life of the dog, have had as many as six in the house for months. In the generally poorer area of the big city where I live I pass miserable stray dogs almost every day, pretty much every time I walk my dogs. In fact I usually pack a 9oz can of bear spray in a shoulder bag and have had to use it about 8 times in the past ten years, not usually at strays but loose pits and the like, mostly to protect my dogs (a pain, replacing the spray each time costs about $50)

Not lightly do we take a dog in, four in the past decade, two adopted out, two eventually sent to the pound.

Perhaps because there are so very many, but no, I do not get sentimental about putting problem dogs down, anymore than I would cattle or chickens, as long as its done in a humane manner. Bottom line; they are animals not people.

Birdwatcher


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Would you eat them as well then? As long as they are boiled or grilled, of course.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Birdwatcher said:


> We have three in the house long-term for the life of the dog, have had as many as six in the house for months. In the generally poorer area of the big city where I live I pass miserable stray dogs almost every day, pretty much every time I walk my dogs. In fact I usually pack a 9oz can of bear spray in a shoulder bag and have had to use it about 8 times in the past ten years, not usually at strays but loose pits and the like, mostly to protect my dogs (a pain, replacing the spray each time costs about $50)
> 
> Not lightly do we take a dog in, four in the past decade, two adopted out, two eventually sent to the pound.
> 
> ...


You used bear spray on someone's dogs? You said they were loose, not stray. 
I also bought bear spray to protect my dog in case of a dog fight but when I read that it causes permanent eye damage and is not to be used on people or domestic animals I put it away and bought pepper spray instead. 

I understand being desensitized after you see so many strays but I still don't agree with some of the things you say. Which is fine, of course. 


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

lalachka said:


> I also bought bear spray to protect my dog in case of a dog fight but when I read that it causes permanent eye damage and is not to be used on people or domestic animals I put it away and bought pepper spray instead.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Bear spray and pepper spray are the same ingredients...no difference. 
Bear spray has a bigger area of coverage as well as distance whih is why it is better for the average person to use against other animals. 
Pepper spray requires more accurrate shooting...has less in container and will not cover a broad area. 
Pepper spray can cause damage to eyes of either people or dogs if used within 3 feet....referred to as the hypodermic effect.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Saphire said:


> Bear spray and pepper spray are the same ingredients...no difference.
> Bear spray has a bigger area of coverage as well as distance whih is why it is better for the average person to use against other animals.
> Pepper spray requires more accurrate shooting...has less in container and will not cover a broad area.
> Pepper spray can cause damage to eyes of either people or dogs if used within 3 feet....referred to as the hypodermic effect.


Maybe it's the one I bought. The warning label on it is scary. I don't know which ingredients pepper spray has but it's used on people all the time and it def doesn't have a warning label like that. 


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

lalachka said:


> Maybe it's the one I bought. The warning label on it is scary. I don't know which ingredients pepper spray has but it's used on people all the time and it def doesn't have a warning label like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Pepper spray is pepper spray is what I am trying to tell you. Bear spray is legal to carry here in Canada for use against animals, pepper spray is illegalbin Canada and considered a restricted weapon. I had to be sprayed and go through aloy of training before being allowed to carry it at work.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Saphire said:


> Pepper spray is pepper spray is what I am trying to tell you. Bear spray is legal to carry here in Canada for use against animals, pepper spray is illegalbin Canada and considered a restricted weapon. I had to be sprayed and go through aloy of training before being allowed to carry it at work.


You were sprayed with bear spray?

It's obviously not the same thing if the label says that it cant be used on people or domestic animals. It says it can cause irreversible eye damage. Pepper spray doesn't say that. 

I'm not saying bear spray is illegal, it's obviously legal somewhere to be sold in big online stores. So is rat poison. But I wouldn't use it on someone's pet. 

Pepper spray, however, is used by cops all the time and the people don't go blind. I don't see them use bear spray on people. 


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Maybe it's the one I bought. The warning label on it is scary. I don't know which ingredients pepper spray has but it's used on people all the time and it def doesn't have a warning label like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Bear spray contains more of the active compounds than typical pepper spray (most defense sprays are 1.3% or less, while bear spray is 2% or more). Bear spray is also (usually) designed to empty on one firing, whereas pepper spray has "rounds" and is designed to be used repeatedly.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but just as a general rule bear spray is far more potent and dangerous than pepper spray (assuming the "pepper spray" doesn't also contain other nerve agents).


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## EAMom (Sep 3, 2013)

He's found a new way to break out of his crate. And figured out how to unlock the back door. I was greeted by him when I came back from a feed run this morning.

He didn't eat anything - all the chickens are still clucking and ducks still quaking. He did rip apart my kitchen, including a jar of frying oil. That was fun to clean up!!

Now he's nagging in his crate. All that exercise must have tired him out.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

many years ago i saw a pair of beautiful white shepherds performing at the michigan state fair. they could do all manner of brilliant things, including opening car doors and rolling windows up and down, and escaping from all sorts of enclosures. i don't recall them doing anything with frying oil. but, you know, they might be his ancestors.

(smile)...


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