# A hard decision



## angie.s

Hi all,

Last friday me and my mum went to pick up our new puppy, a swiss white shepherd, 8 weeks old. We were super excited to pick her up of course, but when we arrived it turned out not to be so exciting. The breeder arrived in her car at the same time we arrived there, she stepped out and said she had very bad news for us. One of her female gsd's who normally always walks in between the puppies had bitten her while her daughter was cleaning the food bowl. The puppy was too close to the bowl and the gsd gave her a correction, thinking she was going to eat her food, but a bit too hard and bit her in her face instead of her neck. 
This was a huge shock for us (and for the breeder), this had never happened before. We know she's a reputable breeder, and accidents happen, but we were still very shocked.
We later arrived at the animal hospital, where they did some tests and she ended up just having two puncture wounds and a slightly dislocated jaw because of the swelling. 
The breeder said she would understand if we didn't want the puppy anymore, but said that the best thing to do was to at least take her for a week and see how she'll be by the end of the week, and then decide if we want her or bring her back.

This has been eating me alive, I'm still very much in shock and I don't know what to do. We decided to get a swiss shepherd because my mum has had a bad experience with a german shepherd, while I really wanted a gsd. It is going to be my dog, and I'm going to take it with me when I move out. (I'm 16 now. Yes we have thought about the whole "you're in school, you might go to college and live on your own" part.) I have experience with dogs, trained a guide dog (who'll be leaving this september to go to doggie college.) and have always loved dogs. But i just don't know what to do. We're very scared that the puppy would be traumatized by the incident, or that I'll regret getting a swiss shepherd while my heart lays with gsd's. But I think no matter what I'd choose, I am going to have some regrets. It's only been a week and she's been an amazing puppy, walking on the lead, potty outside and very nice to people. She shakes and completely freezes when she sees another dog. 

I am completely lost and I just don't know what to do. Everyone around me tells me "you do what you think is best." Well that helps. I have been thinking and thinking and it's making me sick, so I think I need some outside opinions, since everyone who sees the puppy falls in love with the fluffyness and says "She's too cute! You should keep her!" Cuteness is not a reason to keep a dog, but they all say keep her because of that. 

Please help, I am really scared of choosing the wrong thing and ugh. Help.


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## Pytheis

So is the puppy going to be okay physically? No long-term issues? For me, I would be hesitant about keeping a dog that may have issues with other dogs down the road. You mentioned that she shakes and freezes when she sees other dogs. That may escalate to reactivity or aggression, and I know that I couldn't handle that, especially if I was heading off to college in a few years. You could get some help from a trainer now if you think it will be a problem, and she might be okay!

All puppies are very cute, so you should not let her cuteness sway your decision. Also, you mentioned that you would prefer a GSD? Just my two cents, but you are going to be the one caring for this dog for its whole life. You mom will only need to live with it for (hopefully) 2 years. Of course I understand that your mom's opinion matters and that it is still her home, but I would be inclined to say that you should get the breed that you want. You shouldn't have regrets about your new dog that you will have for 12-15 years.

Good luck!


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## NancyJ

I would have llet the BREEDER keep her for a week. She was counting on your getting attached TO the puppy so that no matter what you would wind up with her. 

The freezing and shaking would be a major issue for me. A pup that could have a lifetime of having to be managed instead of being a great family companion. The fact that she released the puppy to you after this incident speaks volumes. I can't even begin to imagine she would put the injured pup through adapting to a new home.

I would walk. I would feel very bad for the puppy though. 

I think a swiss shepherd is merely a white german shepherd. Correct me if I am wrong but I would wonder about the temperament of the dogs given the biting incidents. Young puppies normally get a pass by older dogs. I am not a breeder though.


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## Liffey

If it were me, I would ask the breeder to keep the dog until this issue has resolved and the pup is all healed, and re-evaluate then. (Obviously only if the pup is kept safely away from the offending dog!) 

For what it's worth, I got my dog as a puppy when I was 20, and took him to college with me. It worked out beautifully. I found a small apartment a couple miles from campus and the landlord is fine with an 85lb GSD. Don't let your life plans get in the way of your life!

Good luck with the pup and let us know how it goes.


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## Sunsilver

Being so severely bitten is going to have long-term effects on this pup. It will take her a VERY long time to get over her fear of other dogs, and she may never fully recover. Do you want to have to deal with this for the rest of her life?

I'd pass, and I agree with what Nancy said about the breeder's ethics!!


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## konathegsd

Do you have the patients and the time to work with the pup to get over the fear of dogs? At 4 months my pup was afraid of dogs. It took some work but now she loves all dogs.


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## wolfy dog

Use your brain and not rely on emotions right now. You are taking a huge risk by taking in this pup; you could very well end up with a dog aggressive dog, even though it doesn't have to show up until later as a young adult. I know in Europe, the White Shepherds often have nervousness in them. I guess you are from the UK as you are referring to 'my mum'?
The fact that an adult mauls a young pup like that doesn't show strong stable lines, no matter the excuses being used. Why didn't the breeder notify you until you were already there? Hoping you couldn't resist the pup?
I would turn away and not go back.


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## mnm

I can't believe the breeder had the guts to want you to take the puppy in that condition, and needing to go to the vet's right away. She should have taken the puppy herself, to her vet, too care of all treatment and follow-up, and in the meantime called you to let you know what was going on.

To me, that is a huge red flag. She was more concerned about you still taking the puppy, than getting it immediate medical attention. Also, since she has multiple dogs, she would have the chance to work with it and help it to overcome its now extreme fear of other dogs.

Walk away...


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## angie.s

Thanks for all your answers and advice.
The pup got bitten 10 minutes before we arrived, and was immediately taken to an animal hospital, so it did have medical attention right after it happened. The breeder arrived at her house at the same time as us to pick us up and tell us the situation, while the vet and her daughter were caring for the puppy.

Now I do realise that it indeed was very irresponsible to have taken her, and we're calling the breeder as soon as possible to bring her back. It really breaks my heart, but I know it's the best for me and the best for the pup. I know that I will be worrying if I'd keep her of her getting aggressive towards dogs, which will be bad for her and only make her more nervous.

I'm from the Netherlands, not the Uk, I do have a british father though, if that explains the "my mum" part 

We do still want a puppy though, so after explaining to my mum that gsd's aren't the viscious monsters she thinks they are, she's warming up to it a bit. 
My dad and I have been looking into gsd lines and breeders. We're thinking of a working line dog, since the angled backs of the showlines make me feel a little uncomfortable (no offence). And after seeing a guy walking with 5 showline gsd's who were the most anxious dogs I've ever seen. Maybe just a bad breeder/trainer but it still threw me off a bit.

Again, thanks for all your advice, and if you could give me some tips wether to choose show- or workline it would be wonderful.


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## selzer

You need to understand a couple of things: A Swiss Shepherd, IS a German Shepherd, bred for the white color which is a fault in the SV and the AKC. 

As with any breed being bred for a specific color, the gene pool is being limited, and making this a separate breed will mean that out crossing will end, and the dogs will be even more in-bred and that in itself will not hurt individual dogs, but recessive genes will be on both sides of the equation and so, whatever is there, will come out in puppies with a greater frequency, in health, conformation, and temperament. 

I've seen white dogs. None that I want to own. Back in the 80s, 90s, there were some that temperamentally were unstable, fear biting dogs. Has it gotten better? I really don't know. Those that bred the white dogs, were those that were ok breeding outside of the standard to meet customer wants, in color alone, which means, not necessarily breeding for structure or health. 

More recently, since they can be shown in UKC here in the states, there are some breeders of the white dogs that are, in ways other than color, following the standard, and testing their dogs. Also I've seen a few in obedience classes that were nice dogs. So maybe things are getting a little better.

Evenso, if your mom is afraid that the dog will be dangerous because of the breed, in this instance, she has made it more likely to get a less than stellar dog, by going Swiss instead of German. You are more likely to find a good GSD breeder and a GSD of excellent character than a Swiss Shepherd. 

Now for this pup. For the dam to bite the pup so hard as to cause puncture wounds and dislocate the jaw, I think that is all you need to know. The pup gets 50% of its genes (including temperament) from this bitch, but it has also been imprinted (temperament) by this bitch. Double whammy. It has also had a serious injury/incident at a time when learning is concrete. The dog is likely to have lasting issues with dogs, or at least require seriously careful socialization. 

I think you should return the puppy as hard as that sounds to the breeder. They are responsible to deal with problems in their breeding stock. And for you to take on that, it just makes it that much easier for them to ignore that they have something seriously wrong with their breeding bitch to do such a thing. 

If the bitch that did the biting was not the dam, than they have something seriously wrong with the management of their dogs/kennel. It is there problem, and I am concerned with your mother's overall experience with this dog, if you are to keep it. It will make her impression of the breed that much worse. 

And, I agree, bringing the puppy and asking you to try it for a week that was foul. She should have called you on the phone and explained the entire situation and offered to hang onto the puppy until it was healed, and to work with the puppy around other dogs, to ensure he "forget" the negative experience.

I have had 19 litters in 12 years, and I have never had a bitch make a mark on her 8 week old (or younger) puppy. There is something wrong with a bitch that does this, and the puppy, most likely, has that in its genes.


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## llombardo

I am on the keep the pup and do heavy socialization. I have a dog that was viciously attacked as a young pup(a little older then yours) by a Rott. He is now 7 and the best dog ever. He has no issues. He had just started puppy school when it happened. We went to every class(where the demo dog was a Rott) and I never gave him any special treatment. He wasn't babied and I treated him like any other dog. Was there a chance it wouldn't work that? Maybe, but I wasn't going to let it.


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## selzer

llombardo said:


> I am on the keep the pup and do heavy socialization. I have a dog that was viciously attacked as a young pup(a little older then yours) by a Rott. He is now 7 and the best dog ever. He has no issues. He had just started puppy school when it happened. We went to every class(where the demo dog was a Rott) and I never gave him any special treatment. He wasn't babied and I treated him like any other dog. Was there a chance it wouldn't work that? Maybe, but I wasn't going to let it.


The owner is 16, her mother is afraid of GSDs due to a bad experience. Do you even read the OP? Or are you so worried about every single puppy out there, that that is always your answer?

A dog whose mother is such a flake that she will bite and cause damage to an eight week old puppy, whose been bitten and seriously injured at eight weeks old, is no starter dog for people who have no experience and an existing fear. 

I'm sorry llombardo, but this is just bad advice.


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## Magwart

If this is your first pup, I wouldn't suggest starting with a rehab pup. We all make tons of mistakes with our first dog when we're young -- most of us wish we had a rewind button sometimes. You may not have any room for error with a rehab pup.

Rescues routinely take on severely injured pups -- we can do it because we have great vets that can work on correct healing, experienced fosters who will put in the time to rebuild confidence and who have sweet personal dogs that are good, nurturing role models. That's a learned skill set. I've even taken on one that was suspected of being used as a bait dog by dog fighters and miraculously survived -- disfigured permanently, but sweet as the day is long, in a forever home that loves him endlessly, and knows how to give him the most normal life he can have. He needs extra care, and perhaps always will. I'd never put this kind of attacked pup with a newbie foster home or forever home, no matter how well meaning -- it's just not fair. I'd imagine ethical breeders would feel similarly.

This pup has been through real trauma. You do not know how the jaw will heal. There are lots of long-term complications that are possible. You also do not know how the psyche will heal. Good intentions aren't enough if you end up with fear aggressive adult someday. The pup needs a plan, and a support system (including a great trainer and vet, and exposure to carefully selected, gentle, nurturing helper dogs early and often).

I would think of this as a "special needs" pup needing a "salvage" placement -- good breeders find caring, experienced homes for damaged pups and adults. These homes take them knowing their issues and have the resources to help them. Dwarfs, deformed limbs, mega-E, blind...stuff happens, even to good breeders, and they don't have to be put down when the breeder has a circle of people they trust to care for a special needs pup. A very young pup severely attacked by another dog _is _special needs, as far as I'm concerned.

My only hang-up here is I know what my local UNETHICAL breeders do with injured, deformed, damaged, unsaleable pups that need pricey vet care. I've had way too many vet clinics and shelters call asking rescue to take them on after they were dumped. That really worries me for this pup.


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## JnK

mnm said:


> I can't believe the breeder had the guts to want you to take the puppy in that condition, and needing to go to the vet's right away. She should have taken the puppy herself, to her vet, too care of all treatment and follow-up, and in the meantime called you to let you know what was going on.
> 
> To me, that is a huge red flag. She was more concerned about you still taking the puppy, than getting it immediate medical attention. Also, since she has multiple dogs, she would have the chance to work with it and help it to overcome its now extreme fear of other dogs.
> 
> *Walk away...*


[emphasis added]

It's a sad story anyway you look at it, but I agree with Marsha. This could go badly in a number of ways down the line. I think a truly "reputable breeder" would have told you to hold off. Not passed the puppy off on a new 16 year old owner.
As was said earlier in the thread, use logic (and not emotions) to deal with this situation. Sorry you have to deal with this.


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## LuvShepherds

I would return the dog and then ask here for advice on how to find a German Shepherd with sound temperament.


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## selzer

Magwart said:


> If this is your first pup, I wouldn't suggest starting with a rehab pup. We all make tons of mistakes with our first dog when we're young -- most of us wish we had a rewind button sometimes. You may not have any room for error with a rehab pup.
> 
> Rescues routinely take on severely injured pups -- we can do it because we have great vets that can work on correct healing, experienced fosters who will put in the time to rebuild confidence and who have sweet personal dogs that are good, nurturing role models. That's a learned skill set. I've even taken on one that was suspected of being used as a bait dog by dog fighters and miraculously survived -- disfigured permanently, but sweet as the day is long, in a forever home that loves him endlessly, and knows how to give him the most normal life he can have. He needs extra care, and perhaps always will. I'd never put this kind of attacked pup with a newbie foster home or forever home, no matter how well meaning -- it's just not fair. I'd imagine ethical breeders would feel similarly.
> 
> This pup has been through real trauma. You do not know how the jaw will heal. There are lots of long-term complications that are possible. You also do not know how the psyche will heal. Good intentions aren't enough if you end up with fear aggressive adult someday. The pup needs a plan, and a support system (including a great trainer and vet, and exposure to carefully selected, gentle, nurturing helper dogs early and often).
> 
> I would think of this as a "special needs" pup needing a "salvage" placement -- good breeders find caring, experienced homes for damaged pups and adults. These homes take them knowing their issues and have the resources to help them. Dwarfs, deformed limbs, mega-E, blind...stuff happens, even to good breeders, and they don't have to be put down when the breeder has a circle of people they trust to care for a special needs pup. A very young pup severely attacked by another dog _is _special needs, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> My only hang-up here is I know what my local UNETHICAL breeders do with injured, deformed, damaged, unsaleable pups that need pricey vet care. I've had way too many vet clinics and shelters call asking rescue to take them on after they were dumped. That really worries me for this pup.


Yes to all of this. 

But also this puppy is a mixture of the genes of the dam and the sire. And the dam is highly suspect of being unstable. So, even with a knowledgeable and experienced foster/forever home, this puppy may not be able to overcome who his genes say he is. Which could mean a sad outcome after everyone is really attached. Probably, capable hands will be able to produce a manageable puppy. But it is only a probable outcome. 

And yes, we do not know what a breeder will do with the puppy. And that is what makes this such a tough decision. Probably the breeder will sell the puppy to another unsuspecting buyer for half price in 3-4 weeks or when the outward cuts are pretty much healed. And serious issues will crop up when the pup is 5-8 months old, or 9-18 months. We really do not know for sure. 

The thing is, that the OP has good reasons, the best reasons not to try and make it work with this dog. If this dog displays the temperament of the mother, than the OP can forget about having a GSD in her family down the line. Two years from now the OP might be on here, distraught, saying that her dog bit a small child several times while trying to attack the child's dog, and now they want to put the dog to sleep. It is amazing how attached you can become to a special-needs dog. 

A special-needs dog needs a full-time owner. Yes, the dog can be crated or kenneled during the school day or work day, but you can't leave a dog like this with a parent for the school year or even a semester at a time. Not if that parent is frightened of big dogs with the potential of biting. This dog will need an owner with a boat-load of confidence, who knows how to read body language, and who is present pretty much whenever the pup is out of its safe place. 

A pup of good character can overcome even this much of an injury at such a time, given the right owners, with the right amount of experience and willingness to take on the pup. The odds are all against this pup's genetic temperament though. 

As hard as it is, it is not up to the OP to ensure this pup's future. They are not in any position, really. In the best of situations, what the OP wants to do is difficult -- with the right puppy.


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## angie.s

Thank you for your advice. We spoke to the breeder and are bringing her back saturday morning. It still really breaks my heart since I did have a click with her. But I know it's a bad idea to keep her. She already started barking at dogs that walked away when she was on the lead. Kinda like she thought she was chasing them away, I don't really think that's normal behaviour.
I want the puppy to be happy too, I can't give her the care to get her over her trauma. It would be unfair for me and unfair for the puppy.
It was not the mum who bit her btw, it was a different dog.
I do think the pup will be okay, her jaw has healed and I'm not worried about her physically, only mentally. Except for her potential to be aggressive towards dogs, she's a great puppy. I think if she finds the right handler to deal with her fear she could grow into a wonderful dog. But that handler is not me, I accept that.
Thanks again for your feedback.


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## newlie

For what's it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing. It is enough for someone your age to deal with the training and energy of a large breed puppy without adding on a factor like this. And I do know what I am talking about because Newlie is dog reactive. Not to all dogs, but some, and there is no predicting which ones. He is good with people, trustworthy with children, and I love him dearly, but it is a problem.

I have to build up my nerve to even take Newlie for a walk because I am always afraid that somehow he will get away from me and hurt another dog. I have to be constantly vigilant when I take him anywhere, to the vet, to go swimming, etc, and when I take him to a kennel, I have to impress on the staff to be careful about him around other dogs, not just once, but every time I board him. It is very wearing, that constant responsibility. I have had my boy for 5 years and he will always have a home with me, but I will not knowingly take on another dog with this issue.

Several years ago, Newlie came close to killing a little 10 pound dog next door who kept yapping at him. They got into it underneath the chain link fence in our yard. I was sick over it. I also paid half the medical bills ($1300) and put up a privacy fence (around another $1,300) on that side to make sure it didn't happen again.

No, at 16, you do not need this.


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## NancyJ

In the Netherlands you should have access to some very nice workingline dogs. Can you join a club (I think there are a lot there) and visit/talk with folks who work their dogs?. A working line puppy can be a lot of work but you already have some experience and they could help you find one with the right temperament for your experience as there is a range in any litter. They can be a little more "bitey" as puppies but a dog with a solid temperament, even one bred to bite can be safer than a dog with fear issues. 

I would also not rule out an older puppy who may not be what they want for sport or police service work but could make a fine pet. As you know from raising a guide dog puppy, not every puppy "makes the cut"- and goes a different way.


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## angie.s

There aren't a lot of clubs here, can't find any specialized in working lines actually. 
I have found a breeder that seems very good, but after my last experience I'm not very sure what breeder to trust anymore. She was very nice, told me that her pups were from a very good sire (Vucan von peroh). I'm planning to visit to meet the mother, the breeder and the pups ofcourse.
The only thing I worry about (sorry if I'm wrong, I don't have any experience with this) is that because both the dams and the sires lines nearly all have ipo 3 and shutzhund 3. Does that mean they'll have a higher potential for aggression? And will a high prey drive make it more likely that he/she will attack or chase smaller dogs? I have an old peoples home across the street so this area is infested with shih tzus and chihuahuas, so it wouldn't be ideal to get a dog that's likely to harm small dogs.


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## selzer

It wasn't the dam. So this breeder has baby puppies in an area with unrestricted access to other females? That's pretty crazy too. Sorry, but bitches with pups can be quite, uhm, bitchy, and rightfully so. It is the job of the breeder to keep the environment safe for her and her puppies, because a nervous bitch will effect the puppies. Having other bitches with access to the puppies is a stressor that should not exist. 

Glad you are taking the puppy back. The breeder ought to have her head examined. Too many people forget that they own dogs, not little furry humans.


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## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> It wasn't the dam. So this breeder has baby puppies in an area with unrestricted access to other females? That's pretty crazy too. Sorry, but bitches with pups can be quite, uhm, bitchy, and rightfully so. It is the job of the breeder to keep the environment safe for her and her puppies, because a nervous bitch will effect the puppies. Having other bitches with access to the puppies is a stressor that should not exist.
> 
> Glad you are taking the puppy back. The breeder ought to have her head examined. Too many people forget that they own dogs, not little furry humans.


I agree that explains why she sent the dog home with the buyer. She doesn't understand dog behavior.


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## NancyJ

I would not worry at all about dogs coming from stock where parents are both titles to IPO3 or SCH3 level. I do not do dog sport (do search and rescue) and hope someone else picks up but I believe these tests are more about obedience and stability of the dog than uncontrolled prey drives. 

Here is the pedigree for that dog for those more familiar with the lines. Does she have the pedigree of the dam? Some folks could help evaluate to give you potential things to ask about and look for.

Vucan von Peroh


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## angie.s

I cannot find the dam on pedigreedatabase, I can however find her on workingdogs, but you need an account on there to see most of the info about the dogs.
https://us.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2509054/Hex-van-het-Cranenboshttps://nl.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2509054/Hex-van-het-Cranenbos


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## NancyJ

What I would do is take the links you have and go onto bloodlines and pedigrees section of forum and mention you are thinking of a puppy from this breeding, talk about how much experience you have, what you plan to do with the dog, your concerns, what your are looking for and ask what kind of thoughts they have on the breeding and what to look for/ask about with the breeder.


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## mnm

Schutzhund is not about training the dog to bite or protection. It is about obedience and control of the dog, and the dog working as a team with it's handler. Getting to bite is the reward.

As with either line - show or working, you can get extremely high drive dogs, medium drive and low drive dogs in the same litter. 

The key is finding a breeder who knows the difference, and who picks the puppy to match the owner's goals. It would be a horrible idea to allow a companion puppy buyer to choose the highest drive puppy in the litter. Both would end up frustrated and lots of problems.

The reason it is important to see those titles all throughout the pedigree is that it is/was used as a breed worthiness test. A dog must have good stable nerves, a solid temperament, nice drives, and a willingness to work with its handler. All things that you would want, even in a companion puppy. If they don't have SchH or IPO titles, what other titles do they have. Not everyone has the availability to club and helper access to do the training. If they don't, what other things are they doing with their dogs so that they know the dog has everything necessary before breeding.

I know it's a lot to think about, but it looks like you are giving some good thought to your future puppy. Good Luck!!


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## Thecowboysgirl

Before anybody does any more white bashing, I must say, it isn't as if the people who breed them woke up one day and said, these whites are lovely. I am going to breed only for color and shun you black and tan dogs. It really was the other way around.

Hitler decided to kick them out of the registry and apparently some people thought some were worthy of being saved and started doing their own thing seperately.

Some breeders try to produce exotic colors: livers, blues ect and I just don't think white breeders belong in the same category as these other breeders because there ARE white breeders who work very hard to breed healthy dogs to a standard.

are there crappy ones? Sure, but this forum is just full of people with totally messed up black and tan dogs too.

Pretty sick of hearing this crap when I have a great dog I work so hard with. And for that matter his breeder has a ton of great dogs she works hard with, though i do NOT speak for her if anyone knows who she is from previous posts. this rant is entirely my own. A reputable breeder is a reputable breeder, white or otherwise.


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## Sunsilver

I know a white breeder here in Ontario who tries very hard to do everything the right way (Hoofprint Kennels). The white dogs have a registry for reporting health issues that is unlike anything I've ever seen with any other type of German shepherd!


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## Thecowboysgirl

That is correct Sunsilver, my breeder is quite involved with it and I believe was one of the founding members.

I personally believe the whites have something great to offer the other show line dogs and that is more moderate conformation, as most of them don't suffer from the extremes found in the two color show lines.

But let's be honest, if my dog had both his nuts and continues on as well as he has been a proves himself worthy of being bred, what reputable black and tan breeder would let me use him with one of their dogs? Probably none. so let's not blame the white breeders like they are the cabuse of the problem.


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## NancyJ

Honestly, I am *not *seeing any "white bashing" at all.
I think the statements made were limited and - and pointed out problems with limited gene pool. You would hear the same concerns on any dog, regardless, of line bred for color or coat length.

That said the OP indicated up front that she got the white puppy only because of her mother and that she wanted a more conventional shepherd and is rethinking now that she is returning the puppy. She located a breeder who seems to have some very nice working lines (though I am not a pedigree expert) 

Where is the problem?


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> You need to understand a couple of things: A Swiss Shepherd, IS a German Shepherd, bred for the white color which is a fault in the SV and the AKC.
> 
> As with any breed being bred for a specific color, the gene pool is being limited, and making this a separate breed will mean that out crossing will end, and the dogs will be even more in-bred and that in itself will not hurt individual dogs, but recessive genes will be on both sides of the equation and so, whatever is there, will come out in puppies with a greater frequency, in health, conformation, and temperament.
> 
> I've seen white dogs. None that I want to own. Back in the 80s, 90s, there were some that temperamentally were unstable, fear biting dogs. Has it gotten better? I really don't know. Those that bred the white dogs, were those that were ok breeding outside of the standard to meet customer wants, in color alone, which means, not necessarily breeding for structure or health.
> 
> More recently, since they can be shown in UKC here in the states, there are some breeders of the white dogs that are, in ways other than color, following the standard, and testing their dogs. Also I've seen a few in obedience classes that were nice dogs. So maybe things are getting a little better.
> 
> Evenso, if your mom is afraid that the dog will be dangerous because of the breed, in this instance, she has made it more likely to get a less than stellar dog, by going Swiss instead of German. You are more likely to find a good GSD breeder and a GSD of excellent character than a Swiss Shepherd.
> 
> Now for this pup. For the dam to bite the pup so hard as to cause puncture wounds and dislocate the jaw, I think that is all you need to know. The pup gets 50% of its genes (including temperament) from this bitch, but it has also been imprinted (temperament) by this bitch. Double whammy. It has also had a serious injury/incident at a time when learning is concrete. The dog is likely to have lasting issues with dogs, or at least require seriously careful socialization.
> 
> I think you should return the puppy as hard as that sounds to the breeder. They are responsible to deal with problems in their breeding stock. And for you to take on that, it just makes it that much easier for them to ignore that they have something seriously wrong with their breeding bitch to do such a thing.
> 
> If the bitch that did the biting was not the dam, than they have something seriously wrong with the management of their dogs/kennel. It is there problem, and I am concerned with your mother's overall experience with this dog, if you are to keep it. It will make her impression of the breed that much worse.
> 
> And, I agree, bringing the puppy and asking you to try it for a week that was foul. She should have called you on the phone and explained the entire situation and offered to hang onto the puppy until it was healed, and to work with the puppy around other dogs, to ensure he "forget" the negative experience.
> 
> I have had 19 litters in 12 years, and I have never had a bitch make a mark on her 8 week old (or younger) puppy. There is something wrong with a bitch that does this, and the puppy, most likely, has that in its genes.


First, what does this pup being white have to do with the fact that it was bitten by a dog due to negligence? 

The pup is less likely to recover because it's white and therefore temperamentally inferior? If this is a backyard breeder who is irresponsible, which we don't even know, then maybe it is temperamentally inferior anyway due to poor breeding.

I just don't see the need to bring it up. I just don't. Sometimes I get so sick of the snobbiness on here I want to bang my head against a wall.


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> First, what does this pup being white have to do with the fact that it was bitten by a dog due to negligence? Where did I ever say this was the case?
> 
> The pup is less likely to recover because it's white and therefore temperamentally inferior? I did not say this. If the dam was the bitch that bit the puppy, then it would probably inherit her terrible temperament, and learn (be imprinted) by it as well. Nothing to do with color, nor did I say it had anything to do with color.  If this is a backyard breeder who is irresponsible, which we don't even know, then maybe it is temperamentally inferior anyway due to poor breeding. I really don't buy that it is so much the puppies as the handling, but that is a not something that we can properly discuss in this thread. It certainly does sound like someone who is too mentally challenged to be a breeder to allow a bitch who is not the dam, to have access to eight week old puppies.
> 
> I just don't see the need to bring it up. I just don't. Sometimes I get so sick of the snobbiness on here I want to bang my head against a wall.


The need to bring it up was that the OP's mother is laboring under misinformation that a Swiss Shepherd is not a German Shepherd. It is. It is in fact, a GSD with a limited gene pool, which eventually is far more likely to produce issues in health, conformation, and temperament -- anything inherited. The same can be said about black dogs if breeders insist on 6 generations of all black dogs in the pedigree.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Based on what I have read, I am not sure it is fair to said that a Swiss shepherd is the exact same thing as a German shepherd. Swiss had their own "breed" recognized that they adhere to where white GSDS are just able to be registered by some registries like AKC. They definitely have a different look than a white GSD. I have heard temperament differences from people across the board about the Swiss and to a lesser degree the whites, and I do NOT think saying it's the exact same thing as the working line GSD they are apparently looking at now is correct

As for the small gene pool, I have two things to say: 1, I have heard people say that while it is smaller than that of the color shepherds, it is big enough to suffice.

and 2, how small is the gene pool for the wgsl dogs these days? Are the wgsl people not also totally breeding for one single color and shrinking their gene pool to nothing? This is being discussed on another thread right now. 

and 3, what is the most reasonable solution? Selzer you thought you saw a correlation between UKC welcoming the whites and an jmprovement in the quality of the dogs. Saying "you guys aren't allowed to play here" doesn't improve anything!! Now selzer this isn't directed at you because obviously you don't make these rules. 

Lastly, selzer, your position that the whites have such a small gene pool as to be consistently poorer in all areas...well...that's a pretty big blanket statement directed at a lot of dogs and breeders. I guess I feel that unless you have been out there being involved with good white breeders and seeing first hand what they are producing, then don't speculate and say they are all consistently poorer. 

For the record, as I have said before, in my dream world some of the best whites would be bred back into the color dogs and vise versa. I think all of us staying segregated by type or color is beyond silly. but I don't make the rules either so here we are.


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## NancyJ

I am really hating to see the continue into squabbling about white GSDs vs standard. Or about bringing whites into the gene pool. Is there a thread on this particular topic?

There were some issues with a puppy. It came out the OP really wanted a different "type" in the first place. FWIW she is looking at WGWL NOT WGSL dogs . Can we help her with questions about locating another puppy?


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> The need to bring it up was that the OP's mother is laboring under misinformation that a Swiss Shepherd is not a German Shepherd. It is. It is in fact, a GSD with a limited gene pool, which eventually is far more likely to produce issues in health, conformation, and temperament -- anything inherited. The same can be said about black dogs if breeders insist on 6 generations of all black dogs in the pedigree.


Correct, and don't forget Black And Red SL dogs, they fit the exact formula for limited gene pool and issues in health, temperament and structure.


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## NancyJ

Cliffson, the OP has found a working line breeding but I don't know enough about the combination lines to comment about insights on the pair. I know you do have that level of knowledge. It is listed in the thread.


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## cliffson1

This breeding is going to produce pups with a LOT of drive. I question if this is good choice for 16 year old, unless they were active member of IPO club and had the guidance of folks that see this type dog routinely. Don't get me wrong, this is very nice breeding, I more question the right fit for ownership.jmo


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## Deb

I agree with Cliffson and add in a mother who has a fear of GSDs and is the one home with the dog all day.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> Correct, and don't forget Black And Red SL dogs, they fit the exact formula for limited gene pool and issues in health, temperament and structure.


Maybe, maybe not. Isn't it a masking gene that creates the white dogs? Those that are not albinos, which I don't know if there are really that many of those. But breeding for white dogs would be breeding on dogs that successfully pass that masking gene on. How does that work anyway? I'm going to have to dig out my GSD genetics book again. 

As for the black dogs, black is recessive to all others, so if you breed to a black and brown dog, the pups will be black and brown, unless the black and brown dog has a black gene and passes that on to some of the puppies. 

I've produced nothing but black and brown dogs, save Cujo 1 may have been blue. I think he was just washed out black and tan, because his nose and paw pads were black, not grey. But whatever. There was a black dog, her father was sable, and even a white back there in Arwen's line. Dubya was black and red, and everything down the line was black and brown to some extent. Not breeding for color, but black and brown is very common. Much more so than breeding for black or breeding for white. And everything I have bred to since, save Rushie (sire was black AL/WL cross -- mother was Blk/rd GSL) only whose line I did not continue, was black and brown German showline. 

To continually produce black and brown dogs, you do not have to stick with black and brown. To reliably produce blacks or whites, you are going to have to make your decisions on dogs of that color. And eventually the back massing on those dogs will provide such a limited gene pool that problems will ensue. If you find you are breeding too much on a single black and brown dog, back massing, you can make plenty of decisions to breed away from that dog.


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## cliffson1

I'm sorry, I deal in reality and not theory to make my statements. IF you find that you are breeding TOO much to white/black dogs they CAN breed away from them also! The reality is folks DONT and the same result will occur genetically in a bottleneck, ( with Black and reds) with increases in issues of health, temperament, and structure. If you really believed what you wrote how often have you introduced new genetics(black, sable, or bicolor) to be any different than these breeders. Name me the WGSL dog you are using that does NOT have ALL black and red/tan for every dog in last six generations.Genetics doesn't stop becoming genetics because I like something, so the same principles don't apply when I'm doing the same thing as I point out to others....nope, maybe a novice will believe this, but I know better.
Furthermore, the genetic pool of breeders breeding for blacks only is not as limited because their are all blacks in Czech lines, in West working lines, and in DDR lines. So they CAN breed for color of black, still introduce new genetics, and maintain the genetic diversity....that is WHY you still see dogs from generations of black on black breeding still in all aspects of sport,( and I mean top levels), work, and excellent health and temperament moreso conducive to the standard. That is fact, not theory.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> I'm sorry, I deal in reality and not theory to make my statements. IF you find that you are breeding TOO much to white/black dogs they CAN breed away from them also! The reality is folks DONT and the same result will occur genetically in a bottleneck, ( with Black and reds) with increases in issues of health, temperament, and structure. If you really believed what you wrote how often have you introduced new genetics(black, sable, or bicolor) to be any different than these breeders. Name me the WGSL dog you are using that does NOT have ALL black and red/tan for every dog in last six generations.Genetics doesn't stop becoming genetics because I like something, so the same principles don't apply when I'm doing the same thing as I point out to others....nope, maybe a novice will believe this, but I know better.
> Furthermore, the genetic pool of breeders breeding for blacks only is not as limited because their are all blacks in Czech lines, in West working lines, and in DDR lines. So they CAN breed for color of black, still introduce new genetics, and maintain the genetic diversity....that is WHY you still see dogs from generations of black on black breeding still in all aspects of sport,( and I mean top levels), work, and excellent health and temperament moreso conducive to the standard. That is fact, not theory.


Whatever Cliff. I disagree with you on this. I don't think we will change each other's minds though, but if you want to keep on trying, feel free.


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## cliffson1

If you present me facts instead of opinions, I'm open to changing my mind, otherwise, we have to let reality judge both of our opinions. Take care!


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## carmspack

Vucan von Peroh and https://us.working-dog.com/dogs-deta...-het-Cranenbos


is that the pedigree as a replacement pup for the white?

youth , total novice , nervous mother , pet ----- no way 

this is competitive sport pedigree -- 

for this person I would not recommend it


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## cliffson1

Yup!


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## wolfstraum

angie.s said:


> There aren't a lot of clubs here, can't find any specialized in working lines actually.
> I have found a breeder that seems very good, but after my last experience I'm not very sure what breeder to trust anymore. She was very nice, told me that her pups were from a very good sire (Vucan von peroh). I'm planning to visit to meet the mother, the breeder and the pups ofcourse.
> The only thing I worry about (sorry if I'm wrong, I don't have any experience with this) is that because both the dams and the sires lines nearly all have ipo 3 and shutzhund 3. Does that mean they'll have a higher potential for aggression? And will a high prey drive make it more likely that he/she will attack or chase smaller dogs? I have an old peoples home across the street so this area is infested with shih tzus and chihuahuas, so it wouldn't be ideal to get a dog that's likely to harm small dogs.



I did not realize you were in the Netherlands!!!! Missed it but picked it up from another post...

In every litter there are pups just as suitable for pet homes as for working homes.....I have/have had dogs with some of these lines.....if you let the breeder guide you to a lower drive puppy in this litter, I believe you can get a nice companion dog.....frankly, a few of these lines are not as successful in producing high drive consistently and I think there will be a nice spread in the litter of high to lower drives.

https://us.working-dog.com/breed/Van-het-Cranenbos-111185

I think this will be a much more suitable puppy for you. Please keep posting and let us know if you get a puppy and how you and puppy do in the future!!!


Lee


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## selzer

Gee whiz, I don't know why we are encouraging a kid with a mom who is afraid of GSDs to get a working line pup. From what the people on this site go through with them, the mom will be terrified before the pup reaches 16 weeks old -- "My puppy is aggressive, what do I do?" 

Not every driver needs a ferrari. Not every GSD owner needs to start out with a working line puppy, considering only a fraction of owners are going to do even basic training with them. 

For a nice temperament and versatile dog, look for a good breeder of West German Show Lines. If bred to the SV standard, the sire and dam will be titled in IPO or herding, will have hip and elbows certified, will have a show rating, will be evaluated and given a koer report with a grade of recommended of breeding or acceptable for breeding, and so forth. The chances are much better that you will get an appropriate temperament for whatever you want to do with the dog.


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## NancyJ

I am certain a suitable puppy from either line could be found. It is a matter of preference. Not all WL pups are little biting machines and not all SL dogs are mellow. Honestly I have had 2 WL dogs with lower prey drive but tons of play and hunt drive. One carried baby chickens in his mouth without crushing them. Both very gentle with small critters.

The OP has raised a guide dog puppy.


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## cliffson1

I think the people who are knowledable about these dogs, have said that THIS particular breeding probably wouldn't be a good fit. No knowledgable person would say the OP couldn't handle a WL because there are plenty of WL pups/breeding that would do fine. Likewise, there are WGSL dogs with more drive/aggression than nerve that would be poor choice for the OP also. I've seen many sharp GSL dogs usually from moderate aggression, and weak nerves and they are handfuls for novices. And guess who gets the call to work with them from first time owners?....Moi!


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## NancyJ

It's been several days. Maybe we should wait for the OP to come back to see if there is a change of direction..............


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> I think the people who are knowledable about these dogs, have said that THIS particular breeding probably wouldn't be a good fit. No knowledgable person would say the OP couldn't handle a WL because there are plenty of WL pups/breeding that would do fine. Likewise, there are WGSL dogs with more drive/aggression than nerve that would be poor choice for the OP also. I've seen many sharp GSL dogs usually from moderate aggression, and weak nerves and they are handfuls for novices. And guess who gets the call to work with them from first time owners?....Moi!


Cliff, I would be willing to guess that neither of us has any idea what breeders are putting forth of either line in the Netherlands. My opinion is that the OP would be more likely to find a dog that the family will be successful with by finding a breeder who breeds to the SV standard -- GSL. 

I will tell you, Cliff, that I have sold dogs to many police officers. K-9 handlers, that want a pet dog. They do not want a working line dog for a pet for their wife and kids. I am not talking about one person. I am talking several. Why is that. And the number of pet owners who have had working line dogs that come to me, because they don't want to deal with that again, many. From what I see, and there may be too many local WL breeders that are doing it totally wrong, but the WL dogs out here are as bad if not worse on the nervy scale -- can't be taken to the vet without a muzzle??? 

And all these WL people who think a dog is going to NEED a prong collar sooner or later. Or their WL dog NEEDS it. I'm sorry if I have a less than stellar opinion or WL dogs, mostly it is from listening to WL owners. Of course, here if a Show Line owner is having difficulty with a puppy, it is all the pup's fault -- weak nerves. If a WL owner is having trouble with a puppy, it is all the handler's fault. I suppose you have to be a show line fancier to notice this. But really, they are not all nerve-bags.


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## angie.s

Thank you for al your responses.

I'm not going into the white shepherd/gsd argument, but as far as I heard from people who own a gsd and a swiss shepherd, a swiss shepherd is a bit "softer" compared to a gsd.

The breeder was very understanding when we returned the pup, she said I made a good decision. She's now looking for someone with experience for a new forever home.

I went to an event here in the Netherlands last month, Animal Event, where dogs, cats and other animal owners/lovers come together. There was a certain area with dog clubs, so you could ask questions about the breeds. The showline gsd's I saw there were extremely nervous. They were whining, pacing, howling and looked terrified, but that might've been a bad line or bad trainers. I spoke to a dog trainer there who gave me advice on how to bond with a puppy, who also said that she was surprised at how bad these dogs were behaving. Sorry but this threw me off a bit, the working dogs I saw there mostly behaved very well, not nervous at all. Might've been the training, but i don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about them. 

My mum isn't scared of gsd's, she had a bad experience with them. When she was young her mother had one, who had to be euthanised. We spoke to my grandma this weekend and it turned out to be a malinois. The gsd they had in the past was "the best dog they ever had"(grandma's words)
Again, she isn't scared of them, she's just more of a golden retriever person. She also isn't the one who's home with the dog all day, I'm home more than she is, she won't have a lot to do with the dog at all. My dad will be the one looking after the dog, he does like gsd's, and has had a lot of well-trained dogs in the past. 

About whether to choose WL or WGSL, I don't know it very well either. I barely see gsd's around here so I can't really ask anyone I know. Maybe it will help if I tell you what my plans are with the dog? And a bit about myself? Or maybe that doesn't make a difference and it's just a bad idea to get a WL?


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## I~Luv~Maggie

I just read the post below, I thought your mom got attacked or something.


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## carmspack

the OP may not be living in the Netherlands - she is from there - with a British Mum 

the scenario with the white pup delivery doesn't sound very "european" so I place her "here" 
lots of options for that pet dog then


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## selzer

angie.s said:


> Thank you for al your responses.
> 
> I'm not going into the white shepherd/gsd argument, but as far as I heard from people who own a gsd and a swiss shepherd, a swiss shepherd is a bit "softer" compared to a gsd.
> 
> The breeder was very understanding when we returned the pup, she said I made a good decision. She's now looking for someone with experience for a new forever home.
> 
> I went to an event here in the Netherlands last month, Animal Event, where dogs, cats and other animal owners/lovers come together. There was a certain area with dog clubs, so you could ask questions about the breeds. The showline gsd's I saw there were extremely nervous. They were whining, pacing, howling and looked terrified, but that might've been a bad line or bad trainers. I spoke to a dog trainer there who gave me advice on how to bond with a puppy, who also said that she was surprised at how bad these dogs were behaving. Sorry but this threw me off a bit, the working dogs I saw there mostly behaved very well, not nervous at all. Might've been the training, but i don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about them.
> 
> My mum isn't scared of gsd's, she had a bad experience with them. When she was young her mother had one, who had to be euthanised. We spoke to my grandma this weekend and it turned out to be a malinois. The gsd they had in the past was "the best dog they ever had"(grandma's words)
> Again, she isn't scared of them, she's just more of a golden retriever person. She also isn't the one who's home with the dog all day, I'm home more than she is, she won't have a lot to do with the dog at all. My dad will be the one looking after the dog, he does like gsd's, and has had a lot of well-trained dogs in the past.
> 
> About whether to choose WL or WGSL, I don't know it very well either. I barely see gsd's around here so I can't really ask anyone I know. Maybe it will help if I tell you what my plans are with the dog? And a bit about myself? Or maybe that doesn't make a difference and it's just a bad idea to get a WL?


It depends on the breeder. 

If you can go to a few breeders' homes, and meet the dogs, and get an impression of them. For show line dogs to be nervous in a show-atmosphere -- that isn't good. And yes, it can be the breeders/lines. I've seen the opposite here, with WL dogs coming to a show, and being snippy with other dogs, and the owner afraid to let someone hold his dog for him while he did the walk through. 

But there are excellent dogs in both lines. I would expect a WL litter to be more likely to have a larger percentage of pups that require a working home -- more drive and energy than most pet people want or need. Where a show-litter would be more likely to be uniform in temperament with a couple outliers either way. 

Letting the breeder know what you need and what you want to do with the dog, might be a little more important with a working line litter than a show litter. But either should produce dogs that make good pets. 

There really aren't any short cuts. You need to get out there and meet some breeders and some dogs. And maybe if they are close enough, you can ask for recommendations from them for trainers, and maybe call the trainers and ask them their opinion on the breeder and their dogs.


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> Cliff, I would be willing to guess that neither of us has any idea what breeders are putting forth of either line in the Netherlands. My opinion is that the OP would be more likely to find a dog that the family will be successful with by finding a breeder who breeds to the SV standard -- GSL.
> 
> I will tell you, Cliff, that I have sold dogs to many police officers. K-9 handlers, that want a pet dog. They do not want a working line dog for a pet for their wife and kids. I am not talking about one person. I am talking several. Why is that. And the number of pet owners who have had working line dogs that come to me, because they don't want to deal with that again, many. From what I see, and there may be too many local WL breeders that are doing it totally wrong, but the WL dogs out here are as bad if not worse on the nervy scale -- can't be taken to the vet without a muzzle???
> 
> And all these WL people who think a dog is going to NEED a prong collar sooner or later. Or their WL dog NEEDS it. I'm sorry if I have a less than stellar opinion or WL dogs, mostly it is from listening to WL owners. Of course, here if a Show Line owner is having difficulty with a puppy, it is all the pup's fault -- weak nerves. If a WL owner is having trouble with a puppy, it is all the handler's fault. I suppose you have to be a show line fancier to notice this. But really, they are not all nerve-bags.


Selzer, I owned dogs with Fado, Orry, Troll, and Aron in them. Why wouldn't I know about what these dogs are like??? I very seldom talk about something I don't have first hand knowledge of. I have probably sold far many more working line puppies to families and families with kids than you can evidently imagine. There are ten of thousands working line dogs in United States,( just look at large amount on this forum alone that you always complain dominate the forum) most of them are in families. Who do you think all these Czech puppies are going to in United States....mostly families. With your comments, I think your exposure to WL is very limited and breeders of WL dogs have repeatedly tried to inform you that most of their dogs don't go to competition homes but families and often first time families. I know of so many first time families importing WL pups for family protection. Sure, a few times they are overmatched, but how about the many many more that are living successful in families. If the OP is in Netherlands, they are also in country where dog training clubs are more concentrated than here. 
This particular litter is an extremely strong breeding, I can name you the dogs in this pedigree that gives concerns( as can some others) based on what the OP described....but there are plenty of WL litters with pups that would be fine.
As for GSL, I never said she couldn't get a good one, only that if she gets wrong puppy in litter, there is chance of weak nerves. Furthermore, the few GSL dog breeders in Netherlands are producing a far different SL dog than you breed. Just as the SL dogs in Czech Republic( black and red) are stronger in temperament than Germany. Why?....because the culture in Netherlands and Czech Republic even with their SL dogs is maintaining high working traits instead of breeding for pet families.


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## NancyJ

Are there a good suggestions for people in the NL for her to speak with? I recall hearing years ago Rinus D in Belgium had a good rep for placing the right dog with someone, but I have no direct experience. She did post she is in the Netherlands though I am not sure exactly where.


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Selzer, I owned dogs with Fado, Orry, Troll, and Aron in them. Why wouldn't I know about what these dogs are like??? I very seldom talk about something I don't have first hand knowledge of. I have probably sold far many more working line puppies to families and families with kids than you can evidently imagine. There are ten of thousands working line dogs in United States,( just look at large amount on this forum alone that you always complain dominate the forum) most of them are in families. Who do you think all these Czech puppies are going to in United States....mostly families. With your comments, I think your exposure to WL is very limited and breeders of WL dogs have repeatedly tried to inform you that most of their dogs don't go to competition homes but families and often first time families. I know of so many first time families importing WL pups for family protection. Sure, a few times they are overmatched, but how about the many many more that are living successful in families. If the OP is in Netherlands, they are also in country where dog training clubs are more concentrated than here.
> This particular litter is an extremely strong breeding, I can name you the dogs in this pedigree that gives concerns( as can some others) based on what the OP described....but there are plenty of WL litters with pups that would be fine.
> As for GSL, I never said she couldn't get a good one, only that if she gets wrong puppy in litter, there is chance of weak nerves. Furthermore, the few GSL dog breeders in Netherlands are producing a far different SL dog than you breed. Just as the SL dogs in Czech Republic( black and red) are stronger in temperament than Germany. Why?....because the culture in Netherlands and Czech Republic even with their SL dogs is maintaining high working traits instead of breeding for pet families.



Agree with Cliff 

to this " a bad idea to get a WL?"

absolutely not --- good idea -- just the particular pedigree combination that you gave isn't what you are looking for - over matched is a good description

Angie , how sad that the GSD show lines were represented by "The showline gsd's I saw there were extremely nervous. They were whining, pacing, howling and looked terrified, "
Maybe they don't know how the public sees them anymore?

contact 

Herr Baumann of von Lord Fandor -- I would if I could --- doing everything right
"von Lord Fandor" 

Michael at Parchimer Land https://parchimer-land.homepage.t-online.de/english.htm 

or Herr Seidler at vom haus Iris - breeding again for 2017 Welpen - Deutsche Schäferhunde "vom Haus Iris" -- he has some progeny of Duke Schaferliesel 
I have a daughter of Duke - and first and second generation and they have all the dynamics you need for work but are also very adaptable to conditions and situations and can work or be pets -- and work - and retire and be pets.

You can find your ideal . 


-


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## wolfy dog

I am from the Netherlands (the Arnhem area) and there are plenty of IPO groups that the OP can visit. There is a nice population of good and well red GSDs in that country. She does has to go do some research and ask, ask and ask since everyone in her family is new to dogs. I agree about the SLs there; I wouldn't even have wanted to get the champion for free.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> I'm sorry, I deal in reality and not theory to make my statements. IF you find that you are breeding TOO much to white/black dogs they CAN breed away from them also! The reality is folks DONT and the same result will occur genetically in a bottleneck, ( with Black and reds) with increases in issues of health, temperament, and structure. If you really believed what you wrote how often have you introduced new genetics(black, sable, or bicolor) to be any different than these breeders. *Name me the WGSL dog you are using that does NOT have ALL black and red/tan for every dog in last six generations*.Genetics doesn't stop becoming genetics because I like something, so the same principles don't apply when I'm doing the same thing as I point out to others....nope, maybe a novice will believe this, but I know better.
> Furthermore, the genetic pool of breeders breeding for blacks only is not as limited because their are all blacks in Czech lines, in West working lines, and in DDR lines. So they CAN breed for color of black, still introduce new genetics, and maintain the genetic diversity....that is WHY you still see dogs from generations of black on black breeding still in all aspects of sport,( and I mean top levels), work, and excellent health and temperament moreso conducive to the standard. That is fact, not theory.


To answer your question, Eli von Huerta Hof (AkA Kojak).

In the sixth generation is 2x VA2, Timo vom Berrekasten.


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## carmspack

Cliff said " Name me the WGSL dog you are using that does NOT have ALL black and red/tan for every dog in last six generations"

selzer said "To answer your question, Eli von Huerta Hof (AkA Kojak).

In the sixth generation is 2x VA2, Timo vom Berrekasten.
"

so Cliff was right -- because there was never a sable progeny chosen to carry forward from.
you can use a sable -- to gain some improvement , or because he rated VA at a show but limited
use as stud because of colour -- maybe no demand so price is less 

you use him and you only use the non-sable progeny of his and bingo you've lost that colour - leaving the next
5 generations in black and red country.


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> Cliff said " Name me the WGSL dog you are using that does NOT have ALL black and red/tan for every dog in last six generations"
> 
> selzer said "To answer your question, Eli von Huerta Hof (AkA Kojak).
> 
> In the sixth generation is 2x VA2, Timo vom Berrekasten.
> "
> 
> so Cliff was right -- because there was never a sable progeny chosen to carry forward from.
> you can use a sable -- to gain some improvement , or because he rated VA at a show but limited
> use as stud because of colour -- maybe no demand so price is less
> 
> you use him and you only use the non-sable progeny of his and bingo you've lost that colour - leaving the next
> 5 generations in black and red country.


Cliff was wrong. 

He told me to name just one dog that I was using, that did not have six full generations of black and red dogs behind it. Timo is sable. Kojak has him back there. He is in the sixth generation. Nice dog by all accounts. That his Black and Red progeny are in my dog's pedigree was NOT cliff's question. I am not breeding for black and red and I am certainly not breeding for sable -- I don't like the color, I think it is ugly. But, I am not throwing out any dog that has sable back there. I am not insisting on 6 generations of black and red dogs like Cliff suggests. So I was able to name a GSL dog that I am using that does not have a full six generations of Black and red back there.


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## carmspack

Cliff is so right .

selzer "and I am certainly not breeding for sable"

my point exactly - nor are any of the other WGSL's afficianados.

black or red -- seas of uniformity 

selzer "and I am certainly not breeding for sable -- I don't like the color, I think it is ugly"

seems to be the consensus --- that was the sentiment when Timo did his thing . 

selzer " I am not throwing out any dog that has sable back there. "

you have nothing to worry about - an ugly sable won't spontaneously appear -- you do know either sire or dam , one of the breeding pair has to be sable to produce sable -- so no worries 
no reason to reject your dog's pedigree 

what did Timo produce on your dog's pedigree ?

there may have been better sable youngsters that never got used -- to keep the colour a black and red -- black and tan dog was selected - no chance of sables 

this is a deliberate selection process for black and red ------ colour does not a whole dog make

some old stuff on Timo http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...76-apparently-i-have-cheaply-bred-dog-16.html


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## selzer

Carmen, as usual Cliff was trying to berate me, he simply asked me to name one dog I am using that does not have six generations of black and red dogs behind it. I have a sable back there. So I was able to do what Cliff thought I could not. He's not always right. Actually, none of us are.


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## cliffson1

Selzer, YOU are right! Okay! Like I say, if 1% of something supports your case, what does the converse 99% say. Look, I'm not trying to berate you...I understand an owner saying that the natural predominant color of the breed is " ugly". ......but a BREEDER??.... I think that speaks to itself.
Selzer, I don't take this personal, but I really care about the breed and I'm hopeful that future breeders can maintain, even revive the breed. So it is important for me to present balanced information to them along with the many misconceptions they read, they can then research all views or better yet go out and experience the breed in different venues....then they will see what and who they read is creditable. Then maybe they won't be one of the countless people coming to the forum with genetic issues, having to return dogs to breeders or shelters, or having to hear endless excuses why their dog is the way it is. We need breeders of integrity breeding to maintain the standard in mind and body and not breeding for the populace, who have no idea what the Standard requires.


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## cliffson1

Angie.s.....I really hope you are able to get a very nice pup, do your homework and maybe the dialogue on this thread will help you have successful ending.


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## carmspack

the ASL breeders have a much broader view of colour - you see black and tan in all it incarnations , you see black dogs , you see sables.

that allows for experimentation - going out there and using working line or ddr dogs without restrictions imposed by maintaining that black n' red .


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## Steve Strom

angie.s said:


> Thank you for al your responses.
> 
> I'm not going into the white shepherd/gsd argument, but as far as I heard from people who own a gsd and a swiss shepherd, a swiss shepherd is a bit "softer" compared to a gsd.
> 
> The breeder was very understanding when we returned the pup, she said I made a good decision. She's now looking for someone with experience for a new forever home.
> 
> I went to an event here in the Netherlands last month, Animal Event, where dogs, cats and other animal owners/lovers come together. There was a certain area with dog clubs, so you could ask questions about the breeds. The showline gsd's I saw there were extremely nervous. They were whining, pacing, howling and looked terrified, but that might've been a bad line or bad trainers. I spoke to a dog trainer there who gave me advice on how to bond with a puppy, who also said that she was surprised at how bad these dogs were behaving. Sorry but this threw me off a bit, the working dogs I saw there mostly behaved very well, not nervous at all. Might've been the training, but i don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about them.
> 
> My mum isn't scared of gsd's, she had a bad experience with them. When she was young her mother had one, who had to be euthanised. We spoke to my grandma this weekend and it turned out to be a malinois. The gsd they had in the past was "the best dog they ever had"(grandma's words)
> Again, she isn't scared of them, she's just more of a golden retriever person. She also isn't the one who's home with the dog all day, I'm home more than she is, she won't have a lot to do with the dog at all. My dad will be the one looking after the dog, he does like gsd's, and has had a lot of well-trained dogs in the past.
> 
> About whether to choose WL or WGSL, I don't know it very well either. I barely see gsd's around here so I can't really ask anyone I know. Maybe it will help if I tell you what my plans are with the dog? And a bit about myself? Or maybe that doesn't make a difference and it's just a bad idea to get a WL?


This is good first step Angie, seeing the dogs out doing something. The only thing I would have done differently is talk to the owners of the dogs. See what the owners would say about the behavior of the dogs you didn't like and what the owners would say about the dogs you did like. A lot of this stuff comes down to what you'll enjoy and what you can deal with that's less then perfect. Most people aren't going to tell you their dogs a nerve bag everywhere you go, but the explanations will go a long way towards helping you get an idea of what people are talking about when they talk about softer or harder, drive, all that stuff.

Whichever line you decide on, its more then likely going to come down to individual temperaments of the dogs being bred.


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## carmspack

that having been said - I will give Cliff an answer that genuinely has a WGSL , and a breeder , that has no fear of sables or blacks and has them , and breeds on from them with great success.

I don't often recommend show line breeders because of the flaky temperaments that I have seen .

I will recommend one who places temperament as an important part of the dog . 

When my trainer/decoy friend , who is a "champ" at french ring and knows a thing or two 
about "good" dogs , and good mal's and good gsd in particular , draws attention to a breeder
then I pay attention.

that decoy friend had prolonged and close contact - in board training -- of two young dogs - a year apart ,
different owners - and both impressed him

I bet you bet you anything the little dog that Shaw and I saw at the trial and show - was from this kennel.
He stood out - head and shoulders above all the other dogs - and no roach !!!! and balanced functional 
conformation and so secure and eye candy handsome .

Kennel name Amalberg 
AMALABERG
AMALABERG

and even black -- Margman Yan
son AMALABERG

at least it opens the pedigrees up 

it is my understanding that there has been some mixing with working lines - but I would want to get that from the horses mouth - so that there is no misunderstanding or miscommunication


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## cliffson1

Carmen, I don't know this breeder, but I will wager anything that if this breeder of Black and Red SL dogs DOES intergrated other colors in their breeding program; then as these dogs go they have superior health and temperament than the norm. There was a breeder on here, Huerta HOF, who incorporated sables into her program and she will tell you about the improvements.


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## wolfy dog

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, I don't know this breeder, but I will wager anything that if this breeder of Black and Red SL dogs DOES intergrated other colors in their breeding program; then as these dogs go they have superior health and temperament than the norm. There was a breeder on here, Huerta HOF, who incorporated sables into her program and she will tell you about the improvements.


It sounds like health and temperament is related to color?


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## Kazel

wolfy dog said:


> It sounds like health and temperament is related to color?


As far as I am aware GSD do not have any homozygous lethals as far as color patterns go. So coat color =/= health. 
What does effect the health is people breeding only for certain colors and so limiting their breeding options. When you limit yourself and start linebreeding too much, health concerns are exponentially more likely to occur. Just because a GSD is black and red or white doesn't mean they are more likely to be unhealthy than a sable.


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> the ASL breeders have a much broader view of colour - you see black and tan in all it incarnations , you see black dogs , you see sables.
> 
> that allows for experimentation - going out there and using working line or ddr dogs without restrictions imposed by maintaining that black n' red .


Yes, but the vast majority of ASL breeders would not touch a working line dog for color or anything else. From the horse's mouth, to them the working line dogs look like coyotes. And, they generally think the working line temperament is crazy and hyper and, aggressive. 

I doubt you really want them to incorporate your dogs with theirs because every issue will be blamed on the WL dog that they incorporated. 

Don't feel bad though, they like GSL dogs little less. They call them broken backed, like you call them roach backed. They used to add one now and again to improve a quality, but now I think there is less of that. They tend to feel that their dogs' quality is better than anything they can incorporate from GSLs. 

ASL dogs do come in all colors, so, they need not incorporate working lines for color diversity. And GSL are really unlikely to mix the lines for color. Wouldn't that be as bad as breeding for color. GSL might experiment with working lines for working qualities/temperament. 

Carmen, I think you were more right when you said that they are like three separate breeds. Certainly we can cross the lines because they are not separate breeds. But those that do this will probably breed back in to their own lines, hoping to capture a trait without losing their identity. 

So Carmen and Cliff, when was the last time either of you considered incorporating an ASL dog or a GSL dog into your programs?


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, I don't know this breeder, but I will wager anything that if this breeder of Black and Red SL dogs DOES intergrated other colors in their breeding program; then as these dogs go they have superior health and temperament than the norm. There was a breeder on here, Huerta HOF, who incorporated sables into her program and she will tell you about the improvements.


yes -- I believe she had run into a bit of problem (stated on the forum) and incorporated DDR lines but not sables to my knowledge--


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## cliffson1

wolfy dog said:


> It sounds like health and temperament is related to color?


Noooo, health and temperament are related to genetic diversity or the LACK of genetic diversity. If the lack of genetic diversity correlates with breeding for one color, then the color could appear to be the reason.
There are black and red dogs in in other lines than SL, that have excellent genetic diversity and thus.......:smile2:
So when you introduce genetic diversity through the other colors or lines, then you will see better genetic vitality, and thus.....


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> Yes, but the vast majority of ASL breeders would not touch a working line dog for color or anything else. From the horse's mouth, to them the working line dogs look like coyotes. And, they generally think the working line temperament is crazy and hyper and, aggressive.
> 
> I doubt you really want them to incorporate your dogs with theirs because every issue will be blamed on the WL dog that they incorporated.
> 
> Don't feel bad though, they like GSL dogs little less. They call them broken backed, like you call them roach backed. They used to add one now and again to improve a quality, but now I think there is less of that. They tend to feel that their dogs' quality is better than anything they can incorporate from GSLs.
> 
> ASL dogs do come in all colors, so, they need not incorporate working lines for color diversity. And GSL are really unlikely to mix the lines for color. Wouldn't that be as bad as breeding for color. GSL might experiment with working lines for working qualities/temperament.
> 
> Carmen, I think you were more right when you said that they are like three separate breeds. Certainly we can cross the lines because they are not separate breeds. But those that do this will probably breed back in to their own lines, hoping to capture a trait without losing their identity.
> 
> So Carmen and Cliff, when was the last time either of you considered incorporating an ASL dog or a GSL dog into your programs?


Selzer, I don't breed based on lines or colors, you should know that from what I write consistently on. I breed based on each dog having core strengths and then the two dogs having compensatory traits for balance. I place heavy emphasis on genetics and good genetic diversity with occasional linebreeding to strengthen a trait. I stay away from genetic weaknesses and backmasses no matter what line, or color. It is foolish to introduce genetic weaknesses into your program, worse to introduce linebred genetic weaknesses, asinine to introduce backmasses on genetic weaknesses.i was one of the early folks to breed GWL with Czech lines; for reasons of genetic diversity....now it's commonplace. I just lost a 14 year old DDR female that in 4 breedings, two were Czech dogs, two were West/Czech, but never to a DDR dog. The last GSL dog I owned and bred was a Nanto v Dan Alhedy Hoeve daughter, who was through Mark v haus Beck and was from a Dutch dam line where they view SL dogs as having to have spirit. I bred her to DDR dog.....my point is I have always bred for good genetic diversity, AND I will breed to the best complement, but I will not compromise my breeding program by introducing genetically backmassed dogs, or dogs that genetically are extreme and the extreme is the norm for that dog. The extreme can be color, drives, or angulation, I'm not going to defy genetics no matter how much I like or dislike a dog.
Hope this answers your question. If the German SL were genetically diverse like Marko or Mutz, or the ASL dogs were diverse like Yoncallas Mike or first generation Lance....then I not only would but HAVE in the past.


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## Slamdunc

*Yes, but the vast majority of ASL breeders would not touch a working line dog for color or anything else. From the horse's mouth, to them the working line dogs look like coyotes. And, they generally think the working line temperament is crazy and hyper and, aggressive*.

This is very true and very disheartening. 

The problem of beauty being in the eyes of the beholder and becoming kennel blind. This myopic view of GSD's that so many have is an issue. Some can not appreciate working ability, some think sable GSD's look like coyotes, some think ASL dogs with their severe angulation look like Hyenas. Many believe that the ASL GSD has been crippled by it's structure, only able to run in circles. 

Unfortunately, many ASL breeders wouldn't know proper temperament, conformation or much else about a good GSD. I've seen plenty of ASL dogs that have horrible temperaments, weak nerves, very skittish and aggressive. Then you have the ASL breeders that jumped on the band wagon of breeding to WGSL dogs to cash in. Only, the females they bred too lack the nerve strength to be able to handle the extra drives and then you have skittish, nervy, aggressive fear fun dogs.

I find that truly knowledgeable people, especially breeders will look beyond color and look at the overall dog. I've seen some very beautiful black and red GSD's, I have seen some beautiful sables, bicolors and solid black dogs. To me, it is the whole dog as a package, structure, temperament, health, color, presence, working ability and overall "type" that make a dog substantial. That makes a dog impressive. AKC "Champions" rarely impress me, unless it a dog that has excelled in another venue as well. 

This thread was not about breed worthiness of a particular dog and IMHO few dogs are breed worthy. just because a dog has received a "show" title also does not make it breed worthy on it's own. I can certainly appreciate all the time, effort and work put into campaigning and showing a dog. That is a hobby for the owner. It doesn't make the dog one I would want a puppy from or would breed a dog too.


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## NancyJ

Angie, well you are getting a lot of back and forth from folks here with the debates about the lines - a good earful to be aware of but the breed pretty much is 3 different types, 

Obviously ASL won't be a topic in the Netherlands but German Showlines would as would the variations of the working lines. 

I must admit I have liked a lot of the dogs with some old DDR lines in them, like Carmen suggested. I have met (and my Grim had some of those lines). Nice agreeable dogs that could, if pushed, be formidable but are very even keeled with good sturdy bodies. But of course, as it has been said, it comes down to the breeder, the parents, etc.

I like your idea of coming up with what you want to DO with the dog. How its life will be and working with the breeders to find the right fit. I also would not rule out an older puppy-oft times nice dogs are deemed not suitable for police service work or sport for some "flaw" that could be a plus in a pet home. 

Let us know how it all turns out!


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## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> *Yes, but the vast majority of ASL breeders would not touch a working line dog for color or anything else. From the horse's mouth, to them the working line dogs look like coyotes. And, they generally think the working line temperament is crazy and hyper and, aggressive*.
> 
> This is very true and very disheartening.
> 
> The problem of beauty being in the eyes of the beholder and becoming kennel blind. This myopic view of GSD's that so many have is an issue. Some can not appreciate working ability, some think sable GSD's look like coyotes, some think ASL dogs with their severe angulation look like Hyenas. Many believe that the ASL GSD has been crippled by it's structure, only able to run in circles.
> 
> Unfortunately, many ASL breeders wouldn't know proper temperament, conformation or much else about a good GSD. I've seen plenty of ASL dogs that have horrible temperaments, weak nerves, very skittish and aggressive. Then you have the ASL breeders that jumped on the band wagon of breeding to WGSL dogs to cash in. Only, the females they bred too lack the nerve strength to be able to handle the extra drives and then you have skittish, nervy, aggressive fear fun dogs.
> 
> I find that truly knowledgeable people, especially breeders will look beyond color and look at the overall dog. I've seen some very beautiful black and red GSD's, I have seen some beautiful sables, bicolors and solid black dogs. To me, it is the whole dog as a package, structure, temperament, health, color, presence, working ability and overall "type" that make a dog substantial. That makes a dog impressive. AKC "Champions" rarely impress me, unless it a dog that has excelled in another venue as well.
> 
> This thread was not about breed worthiness of a particular dog and IMHO few dogs are breed worthy. just because a dog has received a "show" title also does not make it breed worthy on it's own. I can certainly appreciate all the time, effort and work put into campaigning and showing a dog. That is a hobby for the owner. It doesn't make the dog one I would want a puppy from or would breed a dog too.


I actually think that a lot more dogs are breed-worthy. They may just not be a breeding that some individuals would want a pup out of. And really, that is every litter out there -- some individual would not want and/or should not get a pup out of. 

To say that an AKC champion is not breed-worthy, well it is in the eyes of AKC fanciers because that is the point of judging dogs in conformation, the whole point of it. And if the judges -- more than one, felt that dog should not be bred for some conformation (including temperament) flaw, they could withhold the first place ribbon. And some judges have actually done this. Of course, when that happens clubs are less likely to ask them to judge at their shows. But really, few champions are so poor they should not pro-create. Not in the lines they are in. 

Maybe they would not be successful for police work. I don't know what the point is to try to pound ASL dogs into a working line mode. Even if you have a dog, like Dallas, that became a herding champion too, real shephers aren't going to try and get his sperm. He is a show dog. Those that herd day in and day out have their own lines who are bred with the mission of producing a superb herding dog in mind for generations. The show dogs really are not bred with herding their first consideration. 

But if you threw the whole ASL, into a mode where the dogs produced would all pass Schutzhund, or would be suitable for police work, it wouldn't matter. The police schools, etc., would still pick working line dogs. It would be a wasted effort, and yes, if you mix the wrong SL dogs with WL, you will have crazy squared. 

If a fatal gene hit the show lines and both GSL and ASL were totally wiped out. Then new showlines would be sprung out of WGWL, Czech and DDR dogs, and in a few generations, the story will be the same. The point of breeding will be to produce a spectacular dog that people want to buy because the look great, they are intelligent, they are trainable, they are adaptable, and so forth. 

The good news is that most people do not need a working-line dog. And the show line dogs are suitable to be great pets, and companion dogs. Some make good service dogs as well. Some are SAR dogs, and performance dogs. I have known GSL dogs that are police dogs as well. 

From the beginning, the dogs were required to gain titles and meet requirements, but were selected by their conformation in a show setting. It would have been just as easy for them to be required to meet conformation/structual-temperament requirements, be rated (Koer), and then the top dog could be picked out of eligible dogs -- Koer, protection, endurance, health screening, etc. competing against each other in an IPO stage. That isn't how it was set up. If it was, I think breeders would go in a different path.


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## carmspack

selzer "ASL dogs do come in all colors, so, they need not incorporate working lines for color diversity"

who cares about colour as long as the pigment is rich - not faded -- and even then it does not interfere
with the intelligence or the ability to function .
Colour diversity? good for carousel horses . 

do you remember von Stephanitz ? 
Well he said -- " UTILITY is the true criterion of beauty."

selzer
"Yes, but the vast majority of ASL breeders would not touch a working line dog for color or anything else. From the horse's mouth, to them the working line dogs look like coyotes. And, they generally think the working line temperament is crazy and hyper and, aggressive."

so knee-knocking fear if the GSD shows appropriate , (necessary for breed specific character) aggression-?

then it is wrong -- 

von Stephanitz again 
"The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherds are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness."

oh yeah . the breed is in some serious need of bold dogs. Love that unshockability bit . Resilient .

von Stephanitz 
"“Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim"

I see this quote on web sites that have no clue what working entails and take no trouble , yet they ride on the coat tails of those that do -- and state that their dogs can do it all from SAR to LE --- with no experience or track record of having done so -- and frankly with dogs that could not .

selzer "Carmen, I think you were more right when you said that they are like three separate breeds"

what is that right and righter - okay .
They are 3 separate breeds . 
the priorities, the conformation, the working ability is totally different.

love this
selzer asked "So Carmen and Cliff, when was the last time either of you considered incorporating an ASL dog or a GSL dog into your programs?"

the cadence is like the closing question of someone trying to get a "SharK" to invest in them.
"so sharks, which one of you will join me in the future of acme schmackme"

fair question.
I have not lately. The WGSL is out . For the reasons that Cliff put down . 
The last 30 years of ASL's does not have what I need.

I am getting older. I can't afford to not have total focus on a goal. That goal always has been always will be to provide the best possible working dog . 

Manchester anyone ? 
You don't think there is going to be an increased need for accurate , tireless , dedicated dogs able to work in any environment , calm to chaotic , empty to crowd filled?
I want more Simbas, Buffys (Buffy badge on my collar) more Sables (dog named after lady wrestler - also worked in Washington DC) more Silvas --- more Nickolas , Mercer, Arthurs and Kade , more of the same that the next and last of that combination produced .

bullseye target . 

I've found the dogs that can do it . 

IF an ASL or WGSL can take me there I would consider it -- but the evaluation will go deep into that dogs background . 
The dog can not be a fluke . There is the problem .

You breed for and breed from . It is breeding . It is not training. Training brings those traits to their very best .
Training does not create the traits.


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## carmspack

selzer 
"But if you threw the whole ASL, into a mode where the dogs produced would all pass Schutzhund, or would be suitable for police work, it wouldn't matter. The police schools, etc., would still pick working line dogs. "

this is not true -- the dog presented is evaluated -- if it passes training and certification and is able to work without being recalled -- and can do the yearly recertification then it is IN.

there are shelter dogs - that make the grade.

these are lucky finds , few and far between so the search does not start with them.

I went along on a few evaluations when the Toronto newspapers (Star and Telegram) used to have a pets column.
Dogs were looking for new homes -- owner unable to keep or handle -- or sometimes someone would go to the station to have a dog donated (get this dog off my hands!) .
Some were just out of control and vicious -- thank god for bell bottoms . Saved the day
at one visit.

Sometimes maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 were good to go. You can't make this your normal though - costly on time -- and dogs were "washed" part way through training -- or dogs were a no go right from the start after x rays were done.


You go where you will have the most success.


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## gsdluvr

@carmspack

"You breed for and breed from . It is breeding . It is not training. Training brings those traits to their very best .
Training does not create the traits."

YES!


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## cliffson1

carmspack said:


> selzer
> "But if you threw the whole ASL, into a mode where the dogs produced would all pass Schutzhund, or would be suitable for police work, it wouldn't matter. The police schools, etc., would still pick working line dogs. "
> 
> this is not true -- the dog presented is evaluated -- if it passes training and certification and is able to work without being recalled -- and can do the yearly recertification then it is IN.
> 
> there are shelter dogs - that make the grade.
> 
> these are lucky finds , few and far between so the search does not start with them.
> 
> I went along on a few evaluations when the Toronto newspapers (Star and Telegram) used to have a pets column.
> Dogs were looking for new homes -- owner unable to keep or handle -- or sometimes someone would go to the station to have a dog donated (get this dog off my hands!) .
> Some were just out of control and vicious -- thank god for bell bottoms . Saved the day
> at one visit.
> 
> Sometimes maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 were good to go. You can't make this your normal though - costly on time -- and dogs were "washed" part way through training -- or dogs were a no go right from the start after x rays were done.
> 
> 
> You go where you will have the most success.


See, this is the typical misinformation I try to combat.( the part about police would ONLY get dogs from working lines). The police DONT care where a dog comes from as long as they can meet requirements and pass the training. Shelter, Homeowner, broker, sport breeder, import, American breeder, .....and I say this as a broker/vendor for LE dogs today and since 1980. As a matter of fact a dog of mine raised from 7 weeks by me is graduating today from K9 academy! It's true that the Law Enforcement community understands where they are most likely to get successful candidates, and where a very high percent of the dogs doesn't make it. But the great thing about LE dogs and evaluators, they don't care about color, bloodlines, politics, LINES, opinions, haha....they descriminate based on performance and utility. I think those ideals are somewhere in the intent of this great breed as Carmen wrote from the founder.
Having said this, I'm not saying people should breed FOR police dogs, they should breed for utility/versatility with some of the litter potentially being capable of this work because it's part of its heritage.


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## holland

I think in New York state their dogs are either donated or come from shelters. I used to use a kennel it was owned by a former police officer and they would select rescue dogs placed them in prisons -for their training -think they were used for detection dogs and maybe other things. To me it just sounds like a win. The RCMP has their own breeding program for dogs and also the musical ride-horses


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## cliffson1

I have placed over 5 dogs with NYSP over the years....they do give tax deductions for the value of the dog.


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## angie.s

Thursday we decided to visit the litter of Vucan x Hex. We were in the area, so we thought even when the pups wouldn't be a good fit for us, she could still answer some questions we have about the breed and breeders here in the Netherlands.
She was very very honest, she told us why she started breeding dogs, she showed us the mum and of course the puppy she chose for us. She told us that she has had litters who weren't good for a normal home, only for working, but she also has had litters, like this one, where half the puppies go into sport and the other half as pets. She told us that the one she chose for us was the best choice, since she has a softer character and has less drive than the others. She wasn't dominant but she wasn't the "lowest" in the litter either. 
We do really trust the breeder, we have the feeling that she really knows what she's doing. We are visiting again today to have another look at the pup and decide if we're getting her or not.

I am not planning to get a working line dog and not give it any work. I've always been interested in dog sports and I will definitely try out different sports with her. Maybe not on competitive level, but I do plan doing a lot with her. I really do realise just walking her won't be enough to tire her out mentally and physically. I got a few tips for that from the breeder. 
Thanks again for all the advice!


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## cliffson1

The breeder sounds honest and very much aware of all aspects of her dogs. Good Luck and I think you will do well if she picks puppy to fit your circumstances.


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## NancyJ

Scentwork is very good for stimulating a young pup's mind and wearing them out (JMO) tracking would be fun and if you look at some of slamdunc's posts and videos there are ways to do tracking in an urban area if you are not into competition (it could be good for that, too, but I don't know as I have never done schutzhund or IPO). I will say you can start with a very young puppy.

Now if you decide to get the puppy you must post a photograph. I think that is a board rule  (just kidding).


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## Hineni7

^^^I agree.. Scent work is definitely a great and fun way to 'burn' energy in pups.. They love it and it takes focus and you can do things that aren't hard on the pups growing joints..


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## creegh

cliffson1 said:


> If you present me facts instead of opinions, I'm open to changing my mind, otherwise, we have to let reality judge both of our opinions. Take care!


Black WGSL:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2552251-nord-shtolts-yatta-kella

Sable WGSL:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2336386-banshee-von-nadar


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## angie.s

So yesterday we decided to bring her home with us! She was amazing in the car and when we came home she already started exploring really quickly. She whines a LOT but that'll get better soon (I hope). Last night she did great as well, she whined for a few minutes. I started saying "good girl" whenever she was silent and that worked very well. She whined when she had to go outside to potty and luckily didn't do it in the crate. 
We don't have a name yet though, we're really struggling with finding one that fits her! Suggestions are very welcome 

She's six weeks old here.


She's 8 weeks old today!


And this was in the car, it was very warm and I think she already has a talent to lay down in weird positions.


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## NancyJ

She is adorable.


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## car2ner

What a beautiful bundle of fluff! Each new pup we bring home stands on the shoulders of the great memories of good times we had with those before.


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## ksotto333

She is beautiful. Names to me are so personal it's hard to recommend one. I like 2 syllable names that can be condensed to a quick call name. Ours are Tessa(Tess) and Della(Dell). Although I really like Maudie (means strength for battle). Dell was almost Maudie. Good luck, have fun, stay in touch.


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## cliffson1

creegh said:


> Black WGSL:
> Nord Shtolts Yatta Kella
> 
> Sable WGSL:
> Banshee von Nadar


 @creegh, Thank you for your examples, though my comments were more reflective of the dogs Selzer breeds, it still holds true for 99% of the WGSL. I have referenced the Von Arlett dogs( some of Margit's dogs have been sable) and Timo. The blacks you referenced are examples as as is the sable, but what you and Selzer don't seem to understand is that I have always acknowledged that there are exceptions to pretty much anything, and nothing is absolute,so therefore less than 1% of something doesn't change the validity of my statements. But you are right in your examples, so I will say to folks on forum that if you have never been to SV type conformation show, go to one and see which reality is reality. If you have been to SV type conformation show before, you already know what you saw and who's comments reflect reality.
Thank you for the examples.


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## NancyJ

I like Ema (Emma)


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> @creegh, Thank you for your examples, though my comments were more reflective of the dogs Selzer breeds, it still holds true for 99% of the WGSL. I have referenced the Von Arlett dogs( some of Margit's dogs have been sable) and Timo. The blacks you referenced are examples as as is the sable, but what you and Selzer don't seem to understand is that I have always acknowledged that there are exceptions to pretty much anything, and nothing is absolute,so therefore less than 1% of something doesn't change the validity of my statements. But you are right in your examples, so I will say to folks on forum that if you have never been to SV type conformation show, go to one and see which reality is reality. If you have been to SV type conformation show before, you already know what you saw and who's comments reflect reality.
> Thank you for the examples.


this was SV-type in the USA.

I can't imagine the major BSZS indulging anything other than what they already promote.


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## silentbob1981

What a love!! So happy you found her!


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## Kazel

Congratulations on the puppy! Hope you enjoy her. What I've found can help is picking a word you like and then trying it in different languages if you like things like that. Or just try names until you find one that clicks.


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## wolfy dog

Did you bring her home at 6 weeks old?


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## NancyJ

She said she was 8 weeks old.


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## wolfy dog

NancyJ said:


> She said she was 8 weeks old.


Oops, sorry OP. I looked at the first picture :headbang:


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## holland

Gosh what a cute pup! Hope you keep posting pics of her


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## Suki's Mom

Too cute!!


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> @*creegh*, Thank you for your examples, though my comments were more reflective of the dogs Selzer breeds, it still holds true for 99% of the WGSL. I have referenced the Von Arlett dogs( some of Margit's dogs have been sable) and Timo. The blacks you referenced are examples as as is the sable, but what you and Selzer don't seem to understand is that I have always acknowledged that there are exceptions to pretty much anything, and nothing is absolute,so therefore less than 1% of something doesn't change the validity of my statements. But you are right in your examples, so I will say to folks on forum that if you have never been to SV type conformation show, go to one and see which reality is reality. If you have been to SV type conformation show before, you already know what you saw and who's comments reflect reality.
> Thank you for the examples.


The reason you went to town on my posts, Cliff, was because I said something to the effect of breeding for colors, like black and white, will narrow the gene pool and will create issues. Now, I do not have numbers, but there are boat loads of black and brown dogs out there, and hand fulls of black dogs and white dogs. Which is going to more quickly create an issue? 

If you are breeding for black and want every dog in six generations to be black, I think you are going to get into a lot more back massing than you will with the black and brown dogs. If you have numbers that prove me wrong on that, then whoo hoo, let's see them.


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## car2ner

I think we have another thread where we can debate the merits of certain genetic groupings. Right now I think we are trying to help name a puppy.


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## NancyJ

Thank you. I saw that as well and think that is a great idea. The OP has a new puppy and I would love to talk about that instead.


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> The reason you went to town on my posts, Cliff, was because I said something to the effect of breeding for colors, like black and white, will narrow the gene pool and will create issues. Now, I do not have numbers, but there are boat loads of black and brown dogs out there, and hand fulls of black dogs and white dogs. Which is going to more quickly create an issue?
> 
> If you are breeding for black and want every dog in six generations to be black, I think you are going to get into a lot more back massing than you will with the black and brown dogs. If you have numbers that prove me wrong on that, then whoo hoo, let's see them.


Selzer, like you said, I'm not going to change your mind, so no need for any numbers or proof. We both have provided folks with our reasoning, so folks just have to let what they see support what they hear or read.


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## selzer

angie.s said:


> So yesterday we decided to bring her home with us! She was amazing in the car and when we came home she already started exploring really quickly. She whines a LOT but that'll get better soon (I hope). Last night she did great as well, she whined for a few minutes. I started saying "good girl" whenever she was silent and that worked very well. She whined when she had to go outside to potty and luckily didn't do it in the crate.
> We don't have a name yet though, we're really struggling with finding one that fits her! Suggestions are very welcome
> 
> She's six weeks old here.
> 
> 
> She's 8 weeks old today!
> 
> 
> And this was in the car, it was very warm and I think she already has a talent to lay down in weird positions.


Names are personal. It depends on what interests you have, on what you expect out of your puppy, what's easy to say, what you wouldn't be embarrassed calling out the back yard. 

I'm a big J. R. R Tolkien fan, and I waited so long for my first GSD, I expected him to be brave and strong and loyal and good. I named him Frodo (I gave him my surname). My second, I named Arwen Evenstar, and the AKC added an XVI to that so I guess I was not the first. Frodo kind of grew on his name. By the time he was two, he mad a definite image in everyone's mind as Frodo. Arwen though, I took a lot of guff for naming her that, but she grew into her name and her ears, and though she has been gone now for 8 years I think, Arwen will always be remembered throughout my family (none of whom ever lived with her). 

Over the years, I've named dogs after characters in books that had names that were not exactly human names for the most part. And I've named them for sports stars. I've named them nick names for political figures. Dubya, MahaRushie (Rush or Rushie), and I named Babs and Jenna after Dubya's twin daughters, which they were. Most of them worked for me, because these were things that I enjoyed. 

So it becomes difficult to help name someone else's puppy, because we don't know what all your intersts are. The reason characters in books work so well is because the main character in stories are often heroes and well loved, which fits our GSDs so well. 

My current pup is currently growing into the name Kojak. 

However it is often tougher to name girls, maybe because female heroines that are well-known but not common human names seem fewer and farther between. I've named girls in one of my early litters after female singers: Tori, Milla, Joplin, Jewel, Whitney. 

After a while I went to letters of the alphabet. The H litter I went with Harry Potter, So the boys were Harry, Hagrid and HeWho(must not be named), the girls were Hestia, Hepzibah, Hermione, Hannah, and Helga. I still have Hepsi. 

Does your breeder follow a letter scheme, sometimes it is easier if we are focused on a specific letter.


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## Sunsilver

I went with a couple of LOTR names, too. The dog I had to put to sleep last April was named Ranger Aragorn, and my 10 year old female is Star of Hope (Aragorn was known as Ellesar, (sp?) which means Star of Hope in Elvish.)

My younger female was named Eska by the breeder (it was the female's 'E' litter!) and I liked the name, so it stuck as a call name. The rest of her name is a bit of a mouthful _ Eska von den Roten Vorbergen!

Eska (Esca) is the Celtic word for 'river', and that's probably why there's a bottled water named Eska.

Two of my dogs were rescues that I renamed, so I stuck with the same initial sound to ease the transition: Ralph became Ranger, and Lassie (HORRIBLE name for a GSD!!) was renamed Lili Marlene, after the famous WWII song.


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## lhczth

Tolkien fan here. I have had a Balien (feminized Balan)/Vala, Felarof, Feanor, Elena, Firien (Dwarfish), Durien (feminized Duran), C'Varda......... There was an Aragorn in my first litter too. There are some good ones especially if you know how to change the names a bit and still fit in with the Tolkien language.


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## selzer

Sunsilver said:


> I went with a couple of LOTR names, too. The dog I had to put to sleep last April was named Ranger Aragorn, and my 10 year old female is Star of Hope (Aragorn was known as Ellesar, (sp?) which means Star of Hope in Elvish.)
> 
> My younger female was named Eska by the breeder (it was the female's 'E' litter!) and I liked the name, so it stuck as a call name. The rest of her name is a bit of a mouthful _ Eska von den Roten Vorbergen!
> 
> Eska (Esca) is the Celtic word for 'river', and that's probably why there's a bottled water named Eska.
> 
> Two of my dogs were rescues that I renamed, so I stuck with the same initial sound to ease the transition: Ralph became Ranger, and Lassie (HORRIBLE name for a GSD!!) was renamed Lili Marlene, after the famous WWII song.


Well, my L-litter had 2 males and 2 females. I named the puppies Lord and Lady, and Lad (Laddie) and Lassie. I still have Lassie. And, believe it or not, she fits the name. LOL! 

When I get a pup back, I will often go back to her litter-name. Sometimes it is good to change the name, so they can forget their experience. I don't know if it works or not. But they tend to do fine with the old name. Dolly became Fricka, then back to Dolly. Gretta became Zoey and back to Gretta. Cujo2 was Bailey but before that he was either Kondru, Kojak, Kosar, or Karloff. I didn't know which, and since he was the spitting image of our beloved Cujo, he slipped right into the name Cujo.

I did have a litter of four boys that were Frodo, Merry, Pippin, and Samwise. Merry became Maxx, Frodo I think became Conan, Pippin I really don't know, but Samwise stayed Samwise. 

In my litters I have had a Nori, Gimli, and I am hoping the T-litter, if it ever comes, will have a Thorin and a Theoden. We'll see.


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## angie.s

Hi all, sorry for my silence, I've been very busy with the little pup 
She's amazing, absolutely amazing. She was used to do potty on the grass so she whines when she needs to go, which spares us a lot of work. She also goes in the bench at night, she only whines when she needs to go out to potty, today we started to get her used to the bench during daytime. It's a huge difference compared to the white pup. The white pup ran away from the vacuum cleaner, started shaking when she saw another dog or a car, was very easily scared. This pup wants to play with the vacuum cleaner, loves walking on the lead and couldn't care less about cars. We took her out for a walk for the first time today, she just walked perfectly on the lead, didn't stop at all(only when she smelled something interesting). We encountered a black lab, who was very nice to her, and she wagged her tail and just started sniffing and wanted to play with it. It really is a huuuuge difference. We're extremely happy with our choice. This little pup is absolutely amazing! 
She still doesn't have a name though... The breeder called her Senna, but we're not sure if we want to keep that name... All the names that I like my mum doesn't like, and all the names my mum likes I don't like.


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## car2ner

adorable. So what do you call her in the mean time, Senna or something like Fuzzbutt?


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## selzer

I named one of my S-litter Shatzi. I like that name. I might have a Shatzi in the future. But that picture makes me think of my werewolf. Her name is Quinn, and sometimes I call her Quinnie, but she IS the werewolf, LOL! 

And it isn't because she is bad. She's not. Well, not usually. Well, not really bad. Actually she is quite fun. But she has werewolf teeth, and she is little and has that hair all around her head, kind of like your picture...

Sorry, again hard to help others name their dogs, because what appeals to one, doesn't necessarily appeal to others.


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## angie.s

Hi, another update!
We named the little pup Koda, fits her very well! 
She's doing very good! We introduced her to our one year old guide dog in training(My parents are divorced so she lives with my dad, while Koda lives with my mum. I'm with Koda all the time though) and it went great! Teddy is very gentle with Koda, she plays with her but is very careful. They really like each other, which is great!
We've gone on walks together with both of the dogs, my dad with Teddy and me with Koda, but we're not going to do that anymore, since Koda is 100% focused on Teddy and wanted to be with her all the time.
Also, when we're on walks and another dog or person walks by, Koda starts screaming and pulling and going crazy because she wants to approach them (not in a bad way, she just wants attention). I now just walk on, try to distract her, but that doesn't always work because she's so focused on the person or dog. I got a harness so I could kind of pull her past and stop her pulling towards the people, but that made the pulling overall worse when she walks normally.. any tips?
While walking when she's not distracted she's quite good when we're walking the path that she's walked before, but when I try to walk into another direction she throws a tantrum. She starts pulling and whining because she doesn't want to go. I just stand and wait until she's done with her screaming fit and then she gives up and walks with me, patience is a virtue, right? 
Then she whines the first two minutes, but does walk. After that she stops whining. I reward her whenever she is silent and walking by my side, shoulder by my knee. 

She'll be 10 weeks tomorrow and weighs 15 pounds, is this good? We think she doesn't really like her food though, she's never really excited for her food and when I give her kibble as reward she doesn't want it, but she does likes Teddy's kibble as reward. We feed her royal canin german shepherd junior. We want to switch to Acana large breed puppy, is this a good food?
What about chews? I've read that rawhide chews are dangerous, so I gave her a nylabone, but she doesn't like it. What are good chews for puppies? Ones that take a while before they're gone? She's got an antler chew that she chews on sometimes, but that doesn't seem like enough for her.

Teddy is on heat so she's on a long rope instead of off leash in case there are intact males roaming around.


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## selzer

Cute puppy. Congratulations on your new addition.


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## NancyJ

Only tip would be to have something really high value to her to lure her away when she gets excited. if you can get her used to focusing attention on you, eye contact with you. Sounds like she is coming along greatly. Nice confident little puppy. Nice adult to help her learn how to be a dog. Sweet. Will you father keep the lab or is she destined for a working home?


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