# High Value Agression. What method?



## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I hoped to never have to post in this section  Sorry this is going to be long, but you never know what detail will make the difference. 
We do use NILF. Our 11 month old, intact male GSD has become food aggressive with high value items. He is 100% fine with us taking any toys out of his mouth, he is good with us petting him or even brushing him while he eats, he is fine with us putting our hand in his food bowl even if there is something extra yummy in there; but we had a major scare tonight and aren’t really certain of how to proceed. 
At 10 weeks he growled at me over a bully stick (it had fallen apart into little stands and I approached him to take away the choking hazard), I hadn’t even reached for it yet and he growled and got into a defensive position over the treat. I now realize that we probably could have handled the situation better, but in the heat of the moment my mom just stormed across the yard to where we were and took the food away and just stood leering over him, after a minute she gave it back. We thought “no big deal he just used to growling and protecting his food from his littermates.” 
Fast-forward to 7 months, we discovered that he gets possessive over two specific things, pig ears and beef moozles (and I would assume any high value variation of those meats). He usually gets a pig ear maybe once a month and tonight was his first moozle. Anyway so we gave him a pig ear around 7 or 8 months and he would growl if you approached or looked the wrong way at his goody; but it was quick short bursts of growling and if he got nasty and bared his teeth my mom would just remove the object from the situation and later give it to him outside. 
Tonight we gave him a moozle in his crate, after about 6 minutes my mom went over and said “hey Lobo, is that yummy?” and he gave a low warning growl. I asked her “hey mom, do you think he would ever actually bite one of us?” I believe I got my answer. My mom then sat down in front of his crate and just spoke in soothing tones, saying things like “hey, hey you got to be nice mister.” “That must be awful yummy, hu?” and when he growled she would say “eh eh” or “NO!” This went on for about 60 seconds and his growling just kept getting lower and longer and then suddenly he just lunged at my mom through the crate with the intention to bite! Since she is definitely the alpha of all in the home, it is very scary to think that our 90lb, equipped with large teeth, family pet, would act that way towards her. 
It has us all scratching our heads as to what should be our next move. I had done research in the past and the consensus was to just trade it for a higher value item until he is ok with sharing; but there is no higher value than a pig ear or moozle. And since we haven’t found anything else that he is un willing to share (he will share pieces of chicken, ice cubes, kibble and fish, ect) or that makes him aggressive, I don’t know how we could implement this method. We already do NILF with him. So it looks like our only two options are either feed him those things in his crate and don’t approach him, or simply don’t give him such a high value item. I know that this will not be an overnight fix, and I am willing to give it time. Any suggestions?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm an old timer, always remember when I was very young, being taught when a dog has a bone, leave him alone. They were never given one in the house, only in yards and the dog would go as far away as he could get from people before partaking. 

Sometimes you need to let a dog be a dog. Don't give the stuff that you know will bring out the "primitive" instinct unless you know that someone doesn't expect to be able to dance the Tango within 2 feet of their jaws.

They make it pretty clear about high value rewards. We make it pretty hard for them to down it quickly to avoid conflict, because they are meant to last a while. 

The best thing I've learned on this site so far, is that if you must break up the dog from a high value item - remove the dog, not the item. It works so much better.


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## Big Brown Eyes (Jan 11, 2015)

Talking to a dog in soothing placatory tones, when it is angry, doesn't work. If he is being violent, then stop it with commands meant to stop / correct behavior.

1) You need to put the dog on a leash, in the hands of the person the dog respects the most.

2) Get the dog in a calm state.

3) Remove distractions.

4) Introduce the "high value treat" in the hands of the person holding the leash.

5) Make the person show the treat to the dog. 

6) make the dog work - like do some commands like lie down, roll over, etc

7) Dog will think it is earning the treat...but not so fast.

8) Put the treat down in front of the dog, and command him to wait. (You need to have this training in place).

9) When dog has waited a good minute, command him to get the treat. 

10) repeat steps 4 to 9 again. How ever this time, dont let the dog eat the treat, instead after step 9, take the treat from the dog. Put the treat in front of him, and make him wait - again. Then after a minute, let him have it.

11) if dog misbehaves, use your strongest correction to ensure he understands growling etc is UNACCEPTABLE. 

12) repeat step 10.


A dog growling at / lunging / scaring a family member is not acceptable. It is the single worst thing ever. A Shepherd is there to protect the family, and the family cannot be scared of it.

Period!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm sorry your having that issue. I have dealt with this twice in my life. The older black lab that was a senior when I brought him home was the first time. He growled one time when he had a bone, I took the bone and gave him a sharp no. He didn't get a bone for a while. The next time I gave him a bone he didn't growl, he never growled at me again. The second dog is my oldest now. As she gets older she gets more temperamental. She is more stubborn and independent, so I remove her from the bone if I must do anything. For the most part I let her be. She deserves to be left alone go eat her bone, but she doesn't lunge or anything. I can sit right by her without issue or walk past her without any reaction. The rest of my dogs don't care if I remove toys or bones but if they did react, I would make sure they knew it wasn't allowed. I would start with not giving them anything high value for a while and base the next move on how dangerous the situation can be. Sometimes letting them be is the safest for all, doesn't mean it's right, but safe is good.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

Big Brown Eyes said:


> Talking to a dog in soothing placatory tones, when it is angry, doesn't work. If he is being violent, then stop it with commands meant to stop / correct behavior.
> 
> 1) You need to put the dog on a leash, in the hands of the person the dog respects the most.
> 
> ...


The growl is a warning. He will just skip to biting. If you're going to give a reward you know he will be defensive over, do it in a setting where you can let him enjoy it. Try not to give your dog something that he loves but can also hurt him. This is by far the safest advice. Growls are communication. If you get your dog to stop growling they will just go to biting. 

I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like the OP really needs to do some research on basic dog communication because they are not aware of the warning signs. And everything they did, such as approaching the dog when it was already warning them not to, only escalated the situation.

I understand you are trying to help, but your advice is highly questionable.

Also, all the alpha dominance theory stuff holds little weight - dogs who truly think they run the show are exceedingly rare and dogs bred like GSDs are unlikely to ever show it - they are people (their people of course only) pleasers. But they are also tend to be reactive and are fighters not flighters. 

Dominance theory has been studied extensively and there's no basis for it in science. It's a hold over from a very old wolf study done in captivity which is used as an example of how not to conduct a study on wild animals these days because wolves do not behave like this in the wild. Negative reinforcement is an old hand as well. It can work when used properly but it is easy to misuse and that can cause major problems. Especially if you've trained your dog not to growl anymore.

If the worst problem your dog has is it guards its food I'd call that a win as it's a really easy problem to fix with some simple steps. 

If they are going to replace the treat, use an equally high value treat to do it. This is desensitization and it is effective. But there really isn't much purpose in taking a treat you already gave your dog. Items are of course a different story, but the same rule can apply. 

The old let a dog be a dog mentality does apply very much here.

Let's say that in spite of all the evidence that hypothetically there was some weight to dominance theory and that dogs behaved like wolves (they do not) - dogs and wolves do not give away something and then suddenly decide to take it back in the wild. The leader of the family (with wolves) typically takes his share of a kill and then leaves the rest. No one interferes with each other while they eat after the portions have been divided. They all know it's a recipe for a fight and they generally work together. 

We are humans, they are dogs. We need to understand them. The more we understand them, the easier it is to train them to understand us.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shepherdsnmastiffs said:


> *No one interferes with each other while they eat after the portions have been divided. They all know it's a recipe for a fight and they generally work together. *
> 
> We are humans, they are dogs. We need to understand them. The more we understand them, the easier it is to train them to understand us.


I do see this amongst all of mine. They can lay right next to each other eating bones(even different ones) and they respect the others. Once they are done they remove themselves from the area and go about their business. It's really nice to see them respect each other. It's the same thing when they eat. They don't bother each other and give that space.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Yes i too agree that if his only two vices are chasing the cats and guarding his high value treats then we do indeed have a win. I don’t expect to be able to play with his face while he eats (not directed at stonevintage, just a general statement), but we definitely want to be able to safely be within a 3 foot radios without eliciting a growl. I personally would not have stayed by his crate last night (after all we gave him the treat to leave us alone, don't we owe him the same courtesy?) but after he let out that first growl my mom thought that it would show weakness if she gave in and just moved away, so she tried to desensitize him to her being there, but he just grew more and more agitated until he just snapped. 

Like llombardo said "Sometimes letting them be is the safest for all, doesn't mean it's right, but safe is good." That is how i feel but my mom is more like Big Brown Eyes and believes that his reaction was completely unacceptable. I think he went crazy in the kennel because he couldn’t get away from my mom so where he normally would have chosen to just move away, this time he was forced to go for option B and bite. But it is unnerving that that would be in the top of his list of “how to react” at all. I think that if he only does that with a select few items we should either let him alone to enjoy them or just not allow him to have them at all, but as I said earlier my parents said that it is COMPLETELY unacceptable for him to act that way at all towards a family member, so they asked me to get your opinions on the situation. Thank you to those that have replied so far :hug:


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I am confused by this whole issue myself. I can see the point of view that growling is a warning and if you punish a dog for growling, it might skip that and go right to a bite. But it seems to me that by allowing a dog to growl at you without doing anything, you are basically telling him that it's OK to respond that way and it is not OK in my book.

My situation is a little different, though, because my dog is of a softer temperament. When I first got him, I thought he was growling at me several times (low rumbling noises, but no lifting lip or baring teeth) and I responded pretty sharply, but I have since wondered if that is not just him "talking." It know it sounds ridiculous to say that I am not sure whether he is growling or not but that is the long and short of it. Anyway, I have had him for about 2 1/2 years now and anytime I do anything he doesn't like, he mumbles his disapproval but I don't get upset anymore, I just keep talking to him (it doesn't matter what I say, it's just the sound of my voice that's soothing I think) and he never does anything but talk. Now, just to be clear, I am not advocating this to anyone else, someone's dog might respond a different way and I certainly don't want anyone to get hurt.

When I am doing something he dislikes, I am not doing it to test him. For example, I don't take his food or bones away to test him, it would make me pretty darn cranky if someone kept jerking my food away fro me. But, say I forgot to put coconut oil on his food, I might pick his bowl up in that case and there is no problem. He will either drop his toys for me or when we play "give and take," he will let me take his toys without a problem and doesn't seem to mind. He know after we do it three times, he is going to get it back anyway. No, he mumbles with things like taking his collar off. He wears either a prong or an e-collar and I insist on taking it off every night so that his skin doesn't get irritated and he doesn't like me taking it off. (Go figure, you would think he would want it off.) So, I make him sit and than talk to him while I remove the collar. Recently, I have found that if I take a little cookie and put it up but in his sight, he is so focused on staring at it that he forgets to mumble/growl.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Basically you have to use a trade - up method!

This explains how!
Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Blog


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Does he eat out of your hand? Do you hold on to a bone or other chewable food as he chomps on it?


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lots of good tips spread above, and the link. Our 1.5 yr female is great in this area, maybe it just happened naturally or because of working with her.

We always borrowed food, treats, and toys from her since she was a pup. Even with a jucy chew treat I can take it away without any issues. I just never liked my own dog growling at me, for any reason.

I don't mean to do any teasing, just conditioning so there is no need to be growling at any of us.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

HOBY said:


> Does he eat out of your hand? Do you hold on to a bone or other chewable food as he chomps on it?


He will eat out of our hands with no issues and he takes treats very gently from our grasp, even the pigs ears; the issue seems to come after we have released the treat to his full possession, then he guards it. He has gotten a banana every few days or so, since 4 months old; in fact i held one for him just this morning. I always hold the banana and he just nibbles it away in little pieces until it is gone; and just randomly i will hold ice cubes for him to lick or these homemade frozen yogurt treats. He gets a very, blissful expression on his face and he has no problem with me holding those items.
In the past he was also ok with me holding onto a bully stick until he had completely devoured it, but i haven't done that with a bully stick in several months... 

Scoobydoo that is a very helpful article. Thanks!


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

newlie said:


> I am confused by this whole issue myself. I can see the point of view that growling is a warning and if you punish a dog for growling, it might skip that and go right to a bite. But it seems to me that by allowing a dog to growl at you without doing anything, you are basically telling him that it's OK to respond that way and it is not OK in my book.
> 
> My situation is a little different, though, because my dog is of a softer temperament. When I first got him, I thought he was growling at me several times (low rumbling noises, but no lifting lip or baring teeth) and I responded pretty sharply, but I have since wondered if that is not just him "talking." It know it sounds ridiculous to say that I am not sure whether he is growling or not but that is the long and short of it. Anyway, I have had him for about 2 1/2 years now and anytime I do anything he doesn't like, he mumbles his disapproval but I don't get upset anymore, I just keep talking to him (it doesn't matter what I say, it's just the sound of my voice that's soothing I think) and he never does anything but talk. Now, just to be clear, I am not advocating this to anyone else, someone's dog might respond a different way and I certainly don't want anyone to get hurt.
> 
> When I am doing something he dislikes, I am not doing it to test him. For example, I don't take his food or bones away to test him, it would make me pretty darn cranky if someone kept jerking my food away fro me. But, say I forgot to put coconut oil on his food, I might pick his bowl up in that case and there is no problem. He will either drop his toys for me or when we play "give and take," he will let me take his toys without a problem and doesn't seem to mind. He know after we do it three times, he is going to get it back anyway. No, he mumbles with things like taking his collar off. He wears either a prong or an e-collar and I insist on taking it off every night so that his skin doesn't get irritated and he doesn't like me taking it off. (Go figure, you would think he would want it off.) So, I make him sit and than talk to him while I remove the collar. Recently, I have found that if I take a little cookie and put it up but in his sight, he is so focused on staring at it that he forgets to mumble/growl.


Yes, very confusing indeed  I guess my biggest question is "Is this something we should correct or something we should avoid?"


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm not saying you should want your dog to growl. In a perfect world your dog would never fear you. But your dog is who he is. You can't impose your will on your dog, your dog does not understand. They are not human. So it is your job to understand them and to take appropriate steps to avoid putting your dog in a fearful situation.

For now, if you want to continue giving treats that are this high value, do not expect to get them back unless you offer something of equal value. 

Growling is simply a method of communication. Its your dog telling you to piss off because you gave him this treat and he wants to enjoy it. But you can similarly communicate with your dog using some of the methods already mentioned. But do not try to get your dog to stop growling using force. This will only result in disaster. And respect your dog when it gets like this. Do not try to force the issue. Avoid the issue and then come back after the dog has settled and try a different approach.

You aren't training him to growl if you do nothing and walk away. This is something he already does naturally. You are simply listening to him. If you want to train him not to growl that is a different process as I already outlined. He will not feel the need to escalate like he did if you walk away. Remember that your dog is very limited it how he can communicate with you and its on you to read the signals.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Everyone else has given good advice, I just wanted to point out something that people haven't seemed to say.

The dog was in a crate. Your mother just stood in front of it, getting into his face. There was a door between the dog and your mother. 

The dog knows he's safe. You cannot get in if the kennel door is closed. This is a reason why you get a lot of kennel aggression. The animal knows that you cannot get to it. It is his safe place (and it should be).

I'm not shocked that he lunged at the door. She's sitting at his level, staring at him and talking in a likely low voice while he has something he's enjoying in there. Her coming over there in the first place has him suspicious. He has something he doesn't want to lose. She pushes, he pushes back.  

That I would chalk up to, well frankly you were lining all that up to happen, and work on getting him to trust that he will always get something good from you, so it's no biggy if you take that yummy treat away.


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