# working line breeders?



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

hi everyone,
new to the forum but been lurking the past couple of months.. 

im interested in a working line gsd. specifically DDR/east bloodlines. after searching for just a GSD in general i came across the DDR/east bloodlines which i really liked from the looks, color, head size, etc.. the the dog will be more for home/family/personal protection and outdoor activities. so a dog with medium drive and willingness to play ball/fetch but also be calm when need be would be nice..

i actually just talked to cindy from truehaus and was nice to speak with her reguarding there dogs. in which i found out there current dogs are mainly west gerrman lines but have the ddr looks.. she did say "tommy" had some ddr bloodline like 3 generations back. i am planing taking a trip to visit truehaus either this week or next to see the dogs and trianing sessions.i live about 2 1/2 hrs from truehaus in the bay area..


what do you guys think about there current breeding pairs/ bloodlines? are there lines more like 90% west/ 10% east? i was trying to search bloodlines but its pretty hard. also any other kennels/breeders you recommend? i did see von banach in washington. 


thanks for the help..


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Cindy has very nice dogs....two thumbs up from my perspective.


----------



## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

I got my last pup from True Haus this year, my first WL puppy. He is out of Tommy and Cat. 

I'm working with Jaxon in PSA right now and everybody loves him. He's got tremendous amount of focus and drive yet he is not and never has been overwhelming in the house. He can calm down and is easy to live with - gets along with all the animals and people. Incredibly smart too. He's not afraid of a thing (except little hissing kittens - go figure LOL) 

I wish I could have gone out there, but after hearing such possitive reviews and talking to others who had gotten a dog from them (we all keep up with one another on FB to brag.  ) however they picked him out for me and shipped him to me in Texas and I'm more than satisfied with my boy. They are good people.

I'd post some pics but he looks like a gangly coyote right now. xD And of course, if you have any questions I'd be happy to help.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I can speak only the best things about Julie (vom Banach) and highly recommend her. I have a vom Banach dog, Anton, he's almost four, and he's the dog of my life. 

Do research the DDR dogs, though. They may look like big teddy bears but have a very strong will and demand respect.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

eiyse98ls1 said:


> i actually just talked to cindy from truehaus and was nice to speak with her reguarding there dogs. in which i found out there current dogs are mainly west gerrman lines but have the ddr looks.. she did say "tommy" had some ddr bloodline like 3 generations back.


I believe some of their females go back to a Jen-Agers bitch, a Lord granddaughter. So there is some DDR in there, and a bit of the look is still there, but the True Haus dogs I've seen all have tremendous prey drive. They are good people, too, who stand by their dogs.


----------



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Sequoyahhaus has some DDR dogs, not many, mostly Czech but some DDR, all working lines however. She is in TN, so the pup would have to fly.... this is just an option!

Sequoyah German Shepherds


----------



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Im so **** scared to recommend a breeder. Just recently recommended another breeder and that breeder had issues with the buyer who was a nutcase.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I can recommend two breeders that I have personally dealt with.
1) www.justk9s.com 
2) www.gildafk9.com 

Both breeders have some nice dogs and are good people to work with.
There are also a few really good breeders of WL GSD on this forum.....perhaps you could contact them as well?...
I'm sure that Chris, Sue, Christine, Carmen, Cliff, Chuck and a couple of others have good dogs that would fit your requirements. *(sorry if I forgot anyone...it is not intentional)*.
Best Wishes!


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I believe Kim at justk9s has 2 puppies available that are full DDR and she is located in California. Like what Oksana said, you should Really do your research on the DDR lines so you know what you are in for and if that's what will fit your lifestyle.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kelly, you have DDR pups right now, don't you? Maybe check out Kelly's site, too eiyse


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSD07 said:


> Do research the DDR dogs, though. They may look like big teddy bears but have a very strong will and demand respect.


Lol this. At 7 months old, our biggest issue in obedience class is getting him to yield. I step into his space and he just looks at me. I bump him with my knees and he just looks at me.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Kelly...sorry, I didn't know you had puppies...and I apologize for not remembering some of the other breeders on this forum. (completely not intentional).
Your pups look adorable....love seeing thick, chunky babies! Congrats!


----------



## MissKaos (Jul 27, 2011)

Depending on where you are at - if that matters at all, you may want to consider checking out the Theishof line. If my memory is working correctly, she's either bred or getting ready to breed Victoria. 

V-1 Victoria Redox SchH 1, KKL 1a (lbz)

Heidi Theis (breeder) has changed her web site, she used to have the "family trees" showing on her site, but after quickly looking I noticed that they aren't there. She may still be working on her site. If you email her I'm sure she'll send the line info to you.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It is very common to see mixed lines these days. In some ways I'd be wary of breeders that advertise as "100% DDR" (or Czech or whatever). It doesn't hurt to have some well-thought out genetic diversity. And a lot of breeders who advertise as such are breeding to sell a fad.

Not to say a dog tha tis 100% DDR is bad by any means, just be careful that you aren't getting a dog from one of those types.

I can't help with any specific breeder recommendations, but that's my advice!


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

boeselager said:


> I believe Kim at justk9s has 2 puppies available that are full DDR and she is located in California. Like what Oksana said, you should Really do your research on the DDR lines so you know what you are in for and if that's what will fit your lifestyle.


There have been several "warnings" in this thread about doing research, etc. I believe you should research everything, cars, tv, dogs, everything! So, this question is for my own research, why all the warnings about DDRs? From what I have learned, they have less prey drive, but more "distrust" of strangers and are more civil? Correct? The way I see it as long as the dog has confidence and isn't a fear bitter, distrust of strangers isn't a bad thing. Or are the warnings more about stubbornness vs. other line? Again, this is for my research so that I know what I'm getting into. Thanks


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDElsa said:


> It is very common to see mixed lines these days. In some ways I'd be wary of breeders that advertise as "100% DDR" (or Czech or whatever). It doesn't hurt to have some well-thought out genetic diversity. And a lot of breeders who advertise as such are breeding to sell a fad.


Yup. Keep in mind how many dog generations it's been since the Wall fell. Are they breeding DDR dog to DDR dog when some genetic diversity would serve better? If so, why? 



eddie1976E said:


> There have been several "warnings" in this thread about doing research, etc. I believe you should research everything, cars, tv, dogs, everything! So, this question is for my own research, why all the warnings about DDRs? From what I have learned, they have less prey drive, but more "distrust" of strangers and are more civil? Correct? The way I see it as long as the dog has confidence and isn't a fear bitter, distrust of strangers isn't a bad thing. Or are the warnings more about stubbornness vs. other line? Again, this is for my research so that I know what I'm getting into. Thanks


"Distrust of strangers isn't a bad thing"-- what if that stranger is your grandma? Or your neighbor's kid? When you have a dog with higher natural civil aggression and suspicion, you want to make sure that the threshold to trigger that aggression is also high, or the consequences can be very bad. Is the breeder aware of this? Or are they breeding dark sable to dark sable to sell dark sable puppies? 

The stereotypical DDR dog is lower in prey drive, lower in food drive, and has high pain tolerance. I got lucky that Kopper has high prey and food with his high pain tolerance. But if you have a dog that isn't highly motivated by food or toys and isn't much bothered by pain. . . how to train? A lot of training books advocate using a shake can full of pennies or a noisemaker to deter unwanted behaviors. HA! Whoever suggested that never worked with my pup.

As I mentioned before, every other dog I've worked with will move away when you step into his space or bump him with your knees. At six months old, I noticed that Kopper doesn't. He's not trying to dominate me or be my alpha (I hate those words) he just. . . . doesn't see any reason to back down. I have no idea what this bodes for the future but I'm confident that I have the experience and/or the resources to handle it. 

He's just. . . . different. Training methods I've used on dozens of foster dogs don't always work with him. He's an independent thinker and you can't scare him, can't intimidate him, can't back him down. I'm really fortunate that, unlike the "stereotypical" DDR dog, he's easy to motivate with positive reinforcement. 

I'd also submit that if you have the kind of household where kids are running in and out and you expect your dog to be friendly to friends and guests and play with your kids' friends, you might want to look into a different line. They are quite aloof with people outside the family, not just strangers. 
I'm not trying to convince you not to get one, just trying to answer your question. I don't want to make them sound like ticking time bombs either.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

boeselager said:


> I believe Kim at justk9s has 2 puppies available that are full DDR and she is located in California.




OMG - I want Mikah!!! :wub:


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

[/QUOTE]
I'd also submit that if you have the kind of household where kids are running in and out and you expect your dog to be friendly to friends and guests and play with your kids' friends, you might want to look into a different line. They are quite aloof with people outside the family, not just strangers. 
I'm not trying to convince you not to get one, just trying to answer your question. I don't want to make them sound like ticking time bombs either.[/QUOTE]

I'm ok with aloof, I'm not ok with such low threshold or trigger that the dog is unsafe. If I have people coming to my house, I don't want my dog all over them, so in that respect aloof is great. I think if the dog has good nerves, good training, it should be safe around people coming in and out, with being "a lab". I think if one is dealing with a good breeder and you tell them your needs, they would be able to deliver a dog that meets your needs. Or if say the DDR line of dogs doesn't produce what you need, then I would hope they would tell you that too.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

The line produces and a breeder will deliver but don't underestimate the training part. Lower prey and food drive will call for excellent handling skills/ competent trainer's advice. Also, early surfaced suspicion without pup's developed ability to control it will call for ability to read your dog and adjust your training appropriately (many trainers at that point will label the dog as weak nerved, aggressive etc). These dogs (at least mine  ) are thinking dogs so you'll need to help them in developing their good judgment. Emoore explained this nicely in her post. 

There were tons of threads on DDRs on this forum with posts from very experienced people, worth to run a search.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think DDR dogs are excellent representatives of the breed, by and large. In many cases they are exactly what the breed should be. They usually have good discernment qualities, and if a person is running in and out of your house regularly, they will recognize the sound/smell and treat them accordingly. They may tend to be a little more civil but usually it is with good nerve. Of course there are examples of nervy DDR dogs as with all lines. And I do think they are at their genetic threshold and need new blood infused for balance. I have an all DDR female, who is excellent with grands, is good with friends, but definitely will stand her ground if you are a stranger entering my property and I'm not there. But hey that's what she is supposed to do just like the herding dog watching the sheep.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

cliff- what do you say about training them since they are supposed to have less prey drive and low food drive? And I agree, dogs ought to be protective of your property and you. As far as people coming in and out, yes, the dog should recognize them. I feel like I have hijacked this thread. Sorry! 

I will post in "general" forum more about this.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I think DDR dogs are excellent representatives of the breed, by and large. In many cases they are exactly what the breed should be.


I agree with this, but how many times have we said that the GSD isn't for everyone? There seems to be an idea running around that DDR dogs are big, dark, intimidating, low-drive, low-maintenance dog. Just because they aren't like Mals or sport-bred WGWL doesn't mean they're the dog for everyone. OP asked what people meant by "do your research." I was trying to give my interpretation and a little clarification. I'm also worried that they seem to be the new fad and people are starting to produce them for the pet market, possibly without looking past the tip of the iceberg. 

Again, not trying to talk OP out of it, just trying to explain what is meant by "do your research."



eddie1976E said:


> As far as people coming in and out, yes, the dog should recognize them. I feel like I have hijacked this thread. Sorry!
> 
> I will post in "general" forum more about this.


 Recognize sure. Just wasn't sure if you were needing or wanting a "friendly" dog.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> But hey that's what she is supposed to do just like the herding dog watching the sheep.


 Cliff, that's because she lives with you who recognizes who she is. A regular GSD pet owner will schedule an appointment with a vet for a thyroid check, and another one with a behaviorist for working on aggression issues :wild:


----------



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I think DDR dogs are excellent representatives of the breed, by and large. In many cases they are exactly what the breed should be. They usually have good discernment qualities, and if a person is running in and out of your house regularly, they will recognize the sound/smell and treat them accordingly. They may tend to be a little more civil but usually it is with good nerve. Of course there are examples of nervy DDR dogs as with all lines. And I do think they are at their genetic threshold and need new blood infused for balance. I have an all DDR female, who is excellent with grands, is good with friends, but definitely will stand her ground if you are a stranger entering my property and I'm not there. But hey that's what she is supposed to do just like the herding dog watching the sheep.


i agree cliffson..

thanks for the responses and replys. i understand that each has there own opinions on the topic and definitely agree. its really late now to give my reply to each persons opinion but i will say that cindy did mention they were breeding full DDR lines but started mixing so that can get the balance of west and east working lines if im not mistaken. 

as a home protector and family companion my gsd working line i end up with will probally not see much kids around for a couple of years since i dont have any kids. family companion i meant my parents, brother , sister. 

.thanks again for all the replies.. i will respond again tomorrow with more responses. feels good to be part of the gsd forum so i can learn more..


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

good luck with the new pup. with training
and socializing you're going to have
a nice dog no matter what line the dog
is from.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I have a very nicely balanced female from Kim at Justk9s.
She has very nice prey & food drive, solid nerves and sound character.
She has balance in her temperament....I couldn't be happier with her.
*Izzy* is more "handler/owner sensitive" than some dogs, but not "people" or environmental sensitive. 
I personally like the bloodlines....although some may exhibit "different" drive levels, or "types" of drives....all that I have met have been sound in temperament.
JMO


----------



## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I have a very nicely balanced female from Kim at Justk9s.
> She has very nice prey & food drive, solid nerves and sound character.
> She has balance in her temperament....I couldn't be happier with her.
> *Izzy* is more "handler/owner sensitive" than some dogs, but not "people" or environmental sensitive.
> ...


 

Firstly, I also second Kim at JustK9s. I remember seeing Izzy a while back, we loved her.  She is beautiful as well. I believe she once told me she had gotten a dog a while back from True Haus and thought possitively of them.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We have clients with a new pup. He is a stout little guy and pretty bold. We asked them to bring their paperwork when they thought about it and they brought it out a few weeks ago. I can't remember the whole pedigree but Steve Lino's dogs were prevalent starting in the 3rd generation. Personally, I thought that was just enough for these novice owners to work with. The good thing is the pup is very quick to learn, so is a lot of fun to work with. 
We had a few DDR dogs probably about 15 years ago, I just loved them but couldn't find the same lines really available when we were looking again. I'd love to have a few of ours back again.
This is the website for the pup I was talking about (not where they got the pup, just where the DDR lines in his pedigree came from).
German Shepherds VomLinmarc

Annette


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I did point blank ask some German breeders still working with DDR lines, one a real working shepherd , another a breeder whose son has taken over the operation , about the attempts in North America to keep the pure ddr genetics "alive" , their response confirmed something that I had felt a long time ago. 
Marketing . Niche . Many haven't a clue about the dogs , what the background was , what they had to offer and what you do not put together and why.
Places that boast we breed for Blacks, Black Sables etc as if it were a goal unto itself fall in to that marketing zone.
There are combinations which are all DDR , but really don't belong together --.

There are combinations of good DDR being put together with show line that don't belong together . Had the DDR portion been heavy with "Bernd" - solid , high threshold yes there would have been a stabilizing benefit . But in this one pedigree which I saw recently , well , for those that know it was like taking a linebred Fero to a wgsl -- you would get some sharp reactive dogs . 

A person looking for a pet should seek out a breeder . Test the breeder inside out to see if the person understands the needs and abilities and has good looking healthy dogs and has an interest to support the person . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> I'm also worried that they seem to be the new fad and people are starting to produce them for the pet market, possibly without looking past the tip of the iceberg.


Starting? This has been going on for years. Not a new fad (depending on what you consider new). The internet just makes it seem that way.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> I did point blank ask some German breeders still working with DDR lines, one a real working shepherd , another a breeder whose son has taken over the operation , about the attempts in North America to keep the pure ddr genetics "alive" , their response confirmed something that I had felt a long time ago.
> Marketing . Niche . Many haven't a clue about the dogs , what the background was , what they had to offer and what you do not put together and why.
> Places that boast we breed for Blacks, Black Sables etc as if it were a goal unto itself fall in to that marketing zone.
> There are combinations which are all DDR , but really don't belong together --.
> ...



Have talked to Herr Scheld about this, as my Kyra was predominantly DDR, with some Czech - and he warned me against breeding her to anything with Fero...with Csabre, he remarked that she was "a genetic treasure", pedigree, character, pigment, strength all in one, made a point of gathering the whole audience to talk about her and what people need to be breeding for when he did the Koer evaluation...she is old WGR working with DDR/Czech, and Bengal - again - no Fero....that keeping lines open was very good, and that I should continue with a Fero free family through her....he also approved of the male Gaston Galen Nabeg whose pedigree he looked over afterwards as he had important older elements that would mix well with hers. 

He talked about the "DDR" lines as invaluable for breeding with WGR WL. And the WGR WL were bottlenecking as well.....plus of course, that the all-vaunted sloping shoulder for show movement was NOT necessary, and a straighter shouldered dog could move all day long, and work sheep just as long and hard as any dog. Keeping aggression down in the WL towards the sheep, and bringing up drive in SL - and did advocate mixing type, especially that the SL people should be bringing in WL to improve character...

I would not recommend an all DDR puppy to many people, as Cliff and others mention, the reactivity/trigger/aggression level can be more than most people understand or are capable of dealing with. Balance is more important than color, no matter how nice color is! 

Lee


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Lee- you can get balance in DDR dogs, or is that not true? I imagine any working dog would need to be balanced in order to succeed. But this is all new to me, so I might be off on my thinking.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

see Carmen's post - to me, this is somewhat akin to"Russian", "Polish", "Egyptian" and other Arabian horse strains - the Russian horses for example brought in Aswan, an Egyptian horse and viola' the horses were Russian.... people trying to keep something so "pure" end up bottlenecking, and not having the genetic breadth available to keep balance ...

At the same time, beware of heavy heavy inbreeding/linebreeding/backmassing - and people who advertise and breed for "EXTREME" prey - you have to breed for balance...for dogs who can be companions, and still go out and do a real job, or sport, or a variety of sports ....

Everyone defines "suceed" differently!!!  

Lee


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

eddie1976E said:


> Lee- you can get balance in DDR dogs, or is that not true? I imagine any working dog would need to be balanced in order to succeed. But this is all new to me, so I might be off on my thinking.


As was mentioned above, a lot of people are breeding DDR dogs that are working lines but haven't been working dogs for generations. They're breeding dark sable dogs for pet buyers.


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Onyx'girl, sorry for the late response but Yes I do have puppies right now, but they are not full DDR. They are 69.3% DDR and the rest is west working lines. I Really like the combination that we get out of this breeding. The pups are very nice and solid. Right now their walking around (weeble wobble walking) and barking and they don't even have their eyes opened yet, LOL!!! I will have a full DDR litter this winter though.

Robin, no problem at all. There are a lot of breeders on here, so it's hard to keep everyone in mind, and thanks for the comments on our puppies 

I would like to add that there are some DDR lines that take a bit longer to mature mentally and if you don't have the patience to wait until they mature then you can mess them up by pushing them to work when they are not ready. I've seen it happen. Not all lines are like this. I had a 2 month old that was ready to be trained in schutzhund and then I had another from different lines that I had to wait for him to mature. Yes, they can be aloof towards strangers (which I personally like), but again not all of them are like this. I've had them also have no food drive/ ball drive but would go after the trainer that had a hidden sleeve in a heart beat. I do agree with what Emorre, Cliff and others have said about them too. In short, to me the DDR dog's are different from your basic GSD, Hence doing the research to see if they will fit into your lifestyle, etc.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

boeselager said:


> I would like to add that there are some DDR lines that take a bit longer to mature mentally and if you don't have the patience to wait until they mature then you can mess them up by pushing them to work when they are not ready. I've seen it happen.




Question about this. We're not doing SchH; we're doing rally and agility. We were thinking about doing SchH but he fracking LOVES rally and agility and the important thing to me is to give him an outlet and have fun with my dog. 

As long as he's excited about working, pulling me towards the obstacles (everything is lower than his knees until we x-ray his hips at a year), and we're keeping it fun, do I need to worry about the "slow to mature" and making sure not to push?


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

What I meant about slow to mature mentally is that I've had them where they acted like they had ADHD (couldn't focus for no more than 10 seconds and/or didn't want too). This is what I've had to deal with in the past. If your dog is willing to work whether it is schutzhund, agillity, rally, herding, etc then *by all means* let the dog work but if they have what I went through (ADHD) I personally would not push them until they are ready. I have seen pups get screwed up b/c they were pushed when they weren't ready. Some times they can bounce back from this and some times they can't. I'm by no means saying this is every single DDR dog out that is out there. There are certain lines that have this and more that don't.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I can attest to the "slower to mature possibility"....
We've had 3 puppies in total from DDR bloodlines...and all 3 have "matured differently".
*Bear* is a strong, slightly independent dog with good prey, low food motivation.
He also has strong "fighting instincts"...which is probably why he was extremely easy to train and is now a Police K9 for Illinois. This dog is 100% reliable around people of all ages. He did not "flinch" at distractions or noises....but could also use a slight more motivation as a baby.
*Thor*...he had higher suspicion of strangers (early on), and started slower in the beginning stages of training.....however:...as soon as he realized that he "liked" training, he excelled very quickly and was doing wonderful last we saw him.....
*Izzy*...since she is *my personal dog*....she had huge expectations to fill.
She was a maniac when I first received her.LOL! A singleton puppy that had *no fears*. She has always had a high prey drive and a lot of confidence. She is not environmental or people sensitive...but she is handler/owner sensitive.
Izzy took longer than I expected to "come into her own" with fight & defense drive because she was so confident...(I was actually concerned and even PM'd Cliff about her)....but TODAY...she is one strong, powerful, confident female that is everything that I could want. A perfect balance of everything.
*Since we breed primarily WGSL dogs....I was not expecting the "delay" in Izzy's development. I had become accustom to seeing puppies born *with* abilities or born *without* them......we don't wait around and keep the "maybes".

JMO on a few of the dogs that I've had the personal pleasure of knowing...


----------



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

hello everyone. 
from what ive been reading i know now i would want a pup with medium food/prey drive. there can be a possible of doing schutzhund. so from reading DDR can be less of that and longer to mature.. to me longer to mature isnt really a problem but i would like to be able to come home to a pup that wants to play ball after a long day of work run around in the back yard and have energy for that but also be calm when need to be for instance when inside the home.. 

so a balance of bloodlines is more like it as long as i can get a pup that got the head, bone structure and coloring of DDR's.. 



boeselager said:


> I believe Kim at justk9s has 2 puppies available that are full DDR and she is located in California.


thank you..do long coats come from any litter of pups or are they breed specifically for there long coats? personally, longs coats are not for me..


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

eiyse98ls1 said:


> thank you..do long coats come from any litter of pups or are they breed specifically for there long coats? personally, longs coats are not for me..


Long coats are a recessive gene. It's possible to have a long-coated pup pop up from a litter where neither parent has a long coat if they both carry the recessive gene. There are some people who breed specifically long coats, but more often they just pop up in a litter.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Balance of bloodlines  is not so easy to achieve as it sounds. Love the conversation between breeders in this thread, they are all excellent and I suggest you contact each of them for what you want.


----------



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Long coats are a recessive gene. It's possible to have a long-coated pup pop up from a litter where neither parent has a long coat if they both carry the recessive gene. There are some people who breed specifically long coats, but more often they just pop up in a litter.



good to know...thanks




GSD07 said:


> Balance of bloodlines  is not so easy to achieve as it sounds. Love the conversation between breeders in this thread, they are all excellent and I suggest you contact each of them for what you want.


understood. balance i didnt mean it like having the specifc traits from each bloodline but more of a pup that will display/show the drive and willingness to play but yet be well behaved.. 

again thanks for the replies from all especially the breeders here that have the opinions if the breed. will be contacting you shortly.. keep the conversations going. love to learn more...


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

eiyse98ls1 said:


> hello everyone.
> from what ive been reading i know now i would want a pup with medium food/prey drive. there can be a possible of doing schutzhund. so from reading DDR can be less of that and longer to mature.. to me longer to mature isnt really a problem but i would like to be able to come home to a pup that wants to play ball after a long day of work run around in the back yard and have energy for that but also be calm when need to be for instance when inside the home..


This is not hard to get if you go with a breeder whose dogs DO live as family dog!


> so a balance of bloodlines is more like it as long as i can get a pup that got the head, bone structure and coloring of DDR's..


Unfortunately - this IS the harder thing to get!!!! This is why there are so many breeders breeding DDR dogs for pet homes!!! Yes, they are gorgeous ~ I have a black sable female - and even though I bred her to a black, her sable daughters were not quite as dark as she is....that color is not easy to reproduce unless that is all you are looking to produce is the color !!!!

Lee


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I know that you meant the best of both worlds but the catch is that this state of balance is pretty hard to achieve if the breeder doesn't know what s/he is doing. Plus you want the head, bone and structure...

DDR dogs have an excellent off switch, and you will not have a problem with playing. Actually, I haven't seen a single GSD that would refuse a good fetch session, regardless of lines


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

boeselager said:


> What I meant about slow to mature mentally is that I've had them where they acted like they had ADHD (couldn't focus for no more than 10 seconds and/or didn't want too). This is what I've had to deal with in the past. If your dog is willing to work whether it is schutzhund, agillity, rally, herding, etc then *by all means* let the dog work but if they have what I went through (ADHD) I personally would not push them until they are ready. I have seen pups get screwed up b/c they were pushed when they weren't ready. Some times they can bounce back from this and some times they can't. I'm by no means saying this is every single DDR dog out that is out there. There are certain lines that have this and more that don't.


I kept back Oda from the 100% DDR litter that I imported in whelp last year, and she fits this ADHD thing to a T. She had about a 5 second attention span for the longest time. She just turned 12 months and I think she's up to a 20 second attention span. She's got intense, high prey drive that is focused on *real* prey--that is, sheep, chickens, cats. And it's kill focused. She hasn't yet hurt one of my cats, but I am sure she would. She has killed at least 4 chickens that she got to before I was able to intervene. She stalks them when the thought comes into her head--not when they are in sight, but while still out of sight as we walk toward where she expects her "prey" to be, she drops into a stalk from 100 feet away (walking toward the part of the house where the cats live; walking toward the chicken pens, which also happens to be near the kennels; moving toward the kennel where her favorite dog-friend is). I was interested in herding with her, but she ramped up into killing-intensity very quickly, so that's an activity that she's not doing (yet? ever?). She was fun to train in agility, although she seemed bored during training, only really perking up when we started doing sequences.

Despite this high prey, she has almost no retrieve drive. So I am focusing on upping her desire to play tug and hoping to give her drive a focused outlet onto tugging and maybe later, bitework.

It's hard to wait and let her mature--if I were determined to do dog sport with her, I would have given up and "washed her out" ages ago. Fortunately, I have other dogs to train while I let her grow up.  At this point, I'm really curious to see how she turns out.


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Glad that Robin and Christine understood what I was trying to say about the ADHD, but not all lines of the DDR are like that, but they are out there. That is partly why we cross the west working line into our breeding with the DDR lines. For us the west working line takes that slow maturing right out of there as well as brings in more prey/food drive and the DDR brings in the bone, head, and the rich pigment. We've been combining these lines for 7 years with great results. There are DDR dog's that can start up training right off the bat, they are out there.

Christine, glad to hear that you are being patient for your girl to mature more... Some people don't have the patience to wait, so they either break them and/or get rid of them b/c of this. Hopefully your girl will be able to do herding if you can stop her intense kill drive. A breeder in Germany that I know got rid of 1 of the pups that they held back b/c she was slow on maturing and they pushed her sooo hard to do schutzhund that they broke her. Luckily the person that got her here in the US took it slow with her and now she is biting full on a sleeve.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you were speaking to me I could frame an answer very easily. 
After many false starts ... here goes , 
Thanks to forums , you get to sit in on conversations that don't involve you , like the old party-line phone plan . You get a sense of what concerns and experiences people have on a larger scale and broader sample . Usually people that contact me have well defined needs and don't care how I accomplish it . But understand that those needs must be met and are thoroughly tested for .
The trend I am seeing is potential new dog owners coming with this list to tick off --a percentage of ddr or czech , or a pure state of , SEE NEED ADVICE posts where I attempt to show what a fallacy that is. Only in North America do people want this concept of pure by location - You will see DDR and west German blending , not a new concept whatsoever , just the opportunity was denied. You will see significant Czech lines relying on high ratios of DDR imput , not just recent but current also.
The only question they had was what is this dog, what does he have to offer . And they went with it . There was never any hmming and humming about the labeling. Can or can not. 
Some of the expectations for the head and bone are rottweiler like and that is not realistic nor reality. 
Any line which has a strong background in Wurtemburger sourced genetic has a tendency to lower station, greater bone , bigger head .
They want dogs that are GSD-lite. If you want a GSD so modified , perhaps because you yourself are feeling feint hearted then go to another breed .
Low food drive -- I wouldn't want that . Low other drives , .. well the problem is that there will be breeders seeing this and breeding to that market -- the ersatz dog , looks like but really isn't.
Also there are far too many breeders out there throwing together ddr lines (as per this discussion) without a clue as to what they are, where they came from, what they have to offer, which lines are compatible and which will create grief . They know the occassional kennel name, the occassional "famous" name bantered about , and they know the colour . 
Balance is not hard to achieve . 
A breeder should know what they are doing. 

catching up 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

What I stated above was not meant for 1 particular person. I apologize if you thought that.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I kept back Oda from the 100% DDR litter that I imported in whelp last year, and she fits this ADHD thing to a T. She had about a 5 second attention span for the longest time. She just turned 12 months and I think she's up to a 20 second attention span. She's got intense, high prey drive that is focused on *real* prey--that is, sheep, chickens, cats. And it's kill focused. She hasn't yet hurt one of my cats, but I am sure she would. She has killed at least 4 chickens that she got to before I was able to intervene. She stalks them when the thought comes into her head--not when they are in sight, but while still out of sight as we walk toward where she expects her "prey" to be, she drops into a stalk from 100 feet away (walking toward the part of the house where the cats live; walking toward the chicken pens, which also happens to be near the kennels; moving toward the kennel where her favorite dog-friend is). I was interested in herding with her, but she ramped up into killing-intensity very quickly, so that's an activity that she's not doing (yet? ever?). She was fun to train in agility, although she seemed bored during training, only really perking up when we started doing sequences.
> 
> Despite this high prey, she has almost no retrieve drive. So I am focusing on upping her desire to play tug and hoping to give her drive a focused outlet onto tugging and maybe later, bitework.
> 
> It's hard to wait and let her mature--if I were determined to do dog sport with her, I would have given up and "washed her out" ages ago. Fortunately, I have other dogs to train while I let her grow up.  At this point, I'm really curious to see how she turns out.


This sounds similar in great part to my predominately DDR female Kyra (6 or 7 x Sch3/IPO3)....the "real" prey, only thing she ever killed was a rat - she lived from day one with cats in the house, and knew they were NOT prey....she thought the car/truck tires WERE prey though, and "killed" at least 12 Tiburon tires, Blizzacks no less...sigh....$$$$$ I was a legend at the Firestone store, they would NOT believe the dog was biting through the sidewalls! She was good on sheep, and we would have done some trials if our herding instructor had not been murdered. Bitework - boring until the escape bite, then she would turn it up several notches....Obedience was perfunctory, and no one thought I would get retrieves on her....she did it through breaking down the exercises and clicker...a long hard process - minimal ball drive, may be partially my fault for raising her with a ball crazy/ball hog house mate....she always seemed to have her own agenda, but was as solid nerved and stable as they come....had true serious aggression, but knew that schutzhund was a game...

Gary H. told me at the Regional that she got distracted by the monster lens and photographer at the blind, that most people could not have gotten a Sch1 on a dog with that much Lord, and coming through his Pirol, and to get even a Sch3 was an accomplishment...most people could not train the Pirol dogs.

Besides herding, she loved the rally/agility type class we did alot prior to the official Rally classes in AKC shows...she did the CGC, CD and a couple of legs of CDX...

Not the type of dog that a novice sport handler will have an easy time of ....but one to learn alot from.

And combining her with an older lined WGWL dog made a terrific litter.

Lee


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info, Lee. Oda has surely won my heart--but she's been the most difficult pup I've ever raised. Fortunately no tires for her! I hope to start her in bitework soon.


----------



## MYBELLAROCKS (Jun 2, 2011)

you might want to check in to Diekema's Dog House - Home
she is going to have a litter on the ground in a few weeks. I think she is willing to ship. her prices are quite reasonable as this is her first litter.
good luck with you search.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Good illustration to this thead. "It is our goal to get some titles on our dogs, such as scent, BH, Sch., ect.. All of our dogs already have the natural instinct to do this because it was part of they're excellent bloodline" (Diekema's Dog House - Home ) . Sch. etc, piece of cake. 

I would not consider this breeder based on the website even if puppies are given away for free.


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I thought the same thing GSD07, wasn't sure why the reference was given. Definitely seems to be hobby breeders looking to have some cute little puppies without much thought.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaina said:


> I thought the same thing GSD07, wasn't sure why the reference was given. Definitely seems to be hobby breeders looking to have some cute little puppies without much thought.


 
Makes three! Not even for free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think Kiah's lines look nice. Kiah Z Jirah - German Shepherd Dog
I know the Hoffenmiller name(her sire is from that kennel, but is owned elsewhere AZ breeder) and the kennel bred for police K9's/not sportdog or pet home(he is a retired MSP k9 breeder/trainer) *But *she is barely 1.5 years old and already producing?...hmmm.


----------



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

MYBELLAROCKS said:


> you might want to check in to Diekema's Dog House - Home
> she is going to have a litter on the ground in a few weeks. I think she is willing to ship. her prices are quite reasonable as this is her first litter.
> good luck with you search.


thanks. but i would like to go with a breeder more established.


----------



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

thanks for the help and info everyone.. i will be checking out truehaus this sunday. at the same time check out there training session and possibly previous pups that are training..


----------



## JRock64 (Aug 13, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Good illustration to this thead. "It is our goal to get some titles on our dogs, such as scent, BH, Sch., ect.. All of our dogs already have the natural instinct to do this because it was part of they're excellent bloodline" (Diekema's Dog House - Home ) . Sch. etc, piece of cake.
> 
> I would not consider this breeder based on the website even if puppies are given away for free.


 
Are you serious! I suppose that you are an expert on web-site building. This is the first web-site that I have made and wanted to be seperated from every one else, a little. Experience comes with time. As for not wanting one of my pups if they were free, your opinion. My dogs are excellent dogs and have excellent pedigrees. I am sorry that my web-site does not appeal to you but everyone starts somewhere. 

I know kennels out there that are very well known and one in particular that even trains for Schutzhund sport; the kennel recently recieved a dog back because he sold it with heartworm and a broken hip. He is going to breed the dog!!!!!! Hummm 
I am honest, loyal to my dogs and my customers. I think it was a cheap shot you made judging me because you did not like my web-site. I am sure in the future I will do better. Sorry to disappoint.


----------



## JRock64 (Aug 13, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I think Kiah's lines look nice. Kiah Z Jirah - German Shepherd Dog
> I know the Hoffenmiller name(her sire is from that kennel, but is owned elsewhere AZ breeder) and the kennel bred for police K9's/not sportdog or pet home(he is a retired MSP k9 breeder/trainer) *But *she is barely 1.5 years old and already producing?...hmmm.


I am breeding my dog according to AKC standards. I am sure that Hoffenmiller's started from some were. I am not sure what your getting at as far as not a sport dog or pet. Kiah has had protection training. I don't undrerstand what your problem is. These dogs make excellent schutzhund dogs and as far as pets, if someone buys a workingline dog they most likely know what they are getting. I should not have to try and defend my selve on this site because someone mentioned my dog was having a litter soon. You can see by my dogs pedigrees they are good dogs but you still want to take a jab at me. ??????


----------



## JRock64 (Aug 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Makes three! Not even for free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If I wanted to breed cute little puppies I would not have spent the money 
that I paid on my dogs to do it. How ignorant. I was told by my dog trainer that it was a dog eat dog business I was getting into, but you guys are over the top. You can see I have great lines, but don't like my site. FYI. I have a business degree; have worked with my vet on and internship, made my own dog food to give my dogs a good raw diet and more. I have put alot of time and effort into my dogs. I am very intense on making sure that I keep my bloodlines excellent and have no intention on straying away from the standard. If I make mistakes along the way it is not intended. It is a process of learning. I am sorry that you feel the way you do.


----------



## JRock64 (Aug 13, 2011)

Shaina said:


> I thought the same thing GSD07, wasn't sure why the reference was given. Definitely seems to be hobby breeders looking to have some cute little puppies without much thought.


If I wanted to breed cute little puppies I would not have spent the money 
that I paid on my dogs to do it. How ignorant. I was told by my dog trainer that it was a dog eat dog business I was getting into, but you guys are over the top. You can see I have great lines, but don't like my site. FYI. I have a business degree; have worked with my vet on and internship, made my own dog food to give my dogs a good raw diet and more. I have put alot of time and effort into my dogs. I am very intense on making sure that I keep my bloodlines excellent and have no intention on straying away from the standard. If I make mistakes along the way it is not intended. It is a process of learning. I am sorry that you feel the way you do.  

I thought that this site was supposed to be a friendly site. Making acquisitions’ on other breeders because of an opinion, hummmm. what can I say?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so maybe you could explain what you are breeding 'for', your goals, what titling your going for, or have on the dogs and the lack of info on the one dogs pedigree? 

I'm not being snarky here, and I don't believe in just going off one's website, (I couldn't build a website if my life depended on it 

I also think breeding to the standard entails more than just breeding to size,looks. 

Unfortunately when people see websites, that's really all they have to go off of, and this is certainly not a bash at your website building skills, like I said, I couldn't build one of my life depended on it..


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

JRock--the problem people are having here is your OBVIOUS (sorry, but it is) lack of understanding of working dogs. For instance...you say that one of your dog's granddams has a "KKL1 title." "Koerklasse" is a BREED SURVEY...not a title! You are breeding dogs, yet don't even know this. You stated you are breeding to "AKC standards"...yet AKC doesn't HAVE breeding standards! 

Also, people consider reputable breeders ones that go out and work and title their dogs FIRST, then breed. Not breed and claim you're "hopeful" you'll eventually get some titles on your dogs. And that the dogs show "good signs" of having potential. Should should have the dogs TITLED and KNOW they can do the job before they breed them.

Yeah, maybe your dogs are great. But you don't have any experience working and titling dogs, so really that doesn't mean much to people. Stop breeding...PROVE your dogs have temperaments that are suitable to breeding, and then get back to breeding.

Unfortunately there probably isn't much more you can do to "imporve" your website because the bottom line is there isn't a lot for you to say. It will require going on and getting your hads direty and breeding the *SV *standard to have people change their minds.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

i'm an *******, big deal, but breeders like you are everywhere, spend some money and think it's going to give them good dogs. You say all the right things, but you don't know dogs or breeding for a long time. Everyone has got to start somewhere, but some start learning before they start breeding. 

I'd venture a guess, you may have been told what your dogs are, but you yourself haven't a clue what is making them tick, what their strengths are, what their weakness is and how they'll work together. I bet if you sent your dog on a helper, you wouldn't know what you were looking at, other than he may be barking or biting. 

If you don't know at least that you shouldn't even consider breeding. Take a decade or two, work some dogs, learn what is really inside them, then maybe breed a litter. until then, all you have is money and words.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JRock64 said:


> I am breeding my dog according to AKC standards. I am sure that Hoffenmiller's started from some were. I am not sure what your getting at as far as not a sport dog or pet. Kiah has had protection training. I don't undrerstand what your problem is. These dogs make excellent schutzhund dogs and as far as pets, if someone buys a workingline dog they most likely know what they are getting. I should not have to try and defend my selve on this site because someone mentioned my dog was having a litter soon. You can see by my dogs pedigrees they are good dogs but you still want to take a jab at me. ??????


I stated that Warren(Hoffenmiller) bred for police dogs, he is a retired MSP k9 trainer/breeder, he didn't focus on the pet market....that was no way taking a jab at the line, I think Warren breeds fine dogs! 
My only "jab" was the fact that you are breeding a dog barely 2 years of age, still not mature yet(and OFA's cannot be done until 2)


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

too late to edit, question for JRock64 ~ the sire is younger than the dam in your expected litter? Did you get hip clearance, other health tests done before you bred them, was this an oops litter?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JRock64 said:


> *I am breeding my dog according to AKC standards*. ........... *if someone buys a workingline dog they most likely know what they are getting*. .........?????


*What exactly do you mean by the above about breeding "to the AKC standard"? My guess would be that you think your dogs are purebred GSD's as that is all the AKC requires to register, right? Or maybe you mean that your dogs are within the standard height for the GSD - males 24-26" and females 22-24" - measured your dogs yet?*

*And I certainly hope that you could explain what you mean by "someone knows what they are getting..." with a working line GSD? *


----------

