# Had to send pup back to breeder, not a good match at all



## Caroline5

It has been a while since I have posted because the past few months have been a challenge. 

After many years of not having a dog I finally got a beautiful gsl puppy. I had told the breeder what kind of temperament I needed and for what purposes I wanted to have her, namely pet, show and therapy dog, and able to go on trail/beachrides with my horse and me. I wanted a dog that I could take pretty much everywhere with me. I was told that she had a wonderful temperament and so the transaction took place and she was shipped to me. She was 11 weeks old when I got her.
The very first sign that I had gotten more than I had bargained for was when I snapped the leash on her at the airport and she pulled very hard against the collar to the point where she was sounding like she was strangling herself. It did not take long after I brought her home that she was, without any provocation, starting to lunge at my arms and lets, biting and tearing my clothing.
From day one I wasted no time in doing obedience training with her 
A few days after she arrived we went for a walk along the river where there were other people with dogs. Most of them she was happy to see but every so often she would see one and come totally unglued, lunging at them like an angry dog on a chain. I had never seen a pup as young as her behave like that. I spoke with numerous trainers and tried all sorts of advice to curb this behavior and nothing was making an impression on her. By 14 weeks I had to buy a prong collar, something I had never needed for any of my dogs in the past.
Several weeks later we started puppy kindergarten and you can imagine how I felt when this 15 week old puppy was lunging and snarling at all the other little puppies. 
At home things weren't good either with her chasing cats, cornering and nearly killing my parrot, wanting to chase buses, slamming against bird cages and glass sliding doors. I was afraid that one day she would come crashing through the glass. I could go on and on. In the mean time I trained her daily, went to classes, met with private trainers who dealt with difficult shepherds. I took her as many places as I possible could and even though she knew heel, sit, stay etc, she would get so excited that she would refuse to listen. It was even recommended that I not enter her in any shows because of her behavior. 
My 16 year old daughter and my husband were both afraid of her. 
The last straw was right before Christmas. She was outside and saw one of my cats through the sliding glass door. Once again she threw herself at the door and when I opened it to correct her, she pushed past me and in a deaf frenzy chased the cat down the stairs. Downstairs was my husband who had just had surgery on his leg. The pup went racing into his office and nearly knocked him over. It was at that point that I knew that she had to go. So at 7 months old I sent her back to the breeder. Sure there was a chance that she would have outgrown it as she matured but I have children, grandchildren, cats, horses, neighbors etc. that were at risk of being bitten in the meantime. 
Even though I had several people here who would have gladly paid me more than I had paid for her because she will make and excellent schutzhund dog, I honored the contract and gave the breeder first right of refusal. They knew that she will do well in the sport and did not hesitate to take her back.
So here I sit, licking my wounds so to speak and should probably get myself and Elizabethan collar before I lick myself raw. I have spoken with the trainers that I had worked with and they all agree that even though her temperament was over the top for an amateur like me, that I didn't do anything wrong and had actually done a pretty good job of training her. 
I am looking for another pup but am not going to rush into it. I know what I want but finding it might be hard but this time when I do I will go myself to pick out the right pup for me. I'm thinking that the best thing for me would be an asl/gsl cross. I want one out of parents who are titled in show and obedience. OFA and dm tested a must and of course a sweet stable temperament that can and will go just about anywhere with me. I want one that I will be able to show in conformation and hopefully even campaign. Most importantly I need a dog who will be safe around my grandbabies.


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## BrodyRoo

That all sounds like normal shepherd puppy behavior to me...

Puppies aren't born knowing how to behave - they have to be taught. And it takes time. 

Maybe you should consider an older dog in the future?


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## Deb

Caroline5, it sounds like you did all anyone could ask of you. As you said, she was just too much puppy for you at this stage. You honored your breeder's contract for which you should be complimented for. Take some down time and heal and then start your search again. I would look into breeders who do show and obedience and I'd weigh the obedience more than the showing, especially if you have never shown before. Sorry it didn't work out for you and thank you for all your patience and the work you put in trying to make it work.


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## lalabug

IMHO you have handled the situation perfectly. You pulled out all the stops and tried every avenue you could. It's not an easy decision to make to return something you have put so much time and effort into. But the tag line of your thread explains it all. The dog wasn't a good match, it happens, you did your best, you are doing what's right for your family/home/other pets. That you are humble enough to admit this is commendable. 
Hugs. And best of luck finding another pup in the future. <3


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> That all sounds like normal shepherd puppy behavior to me...
> 
> Puppies aren't born knowing how to behave - they have to be taught. And it takes time.
> 
> Maybe you should consider an older dog in the future?


I have bred and raised german shepherds before and never experienced this kind of behavior. I trained my first dog when I was 16 and did agility work with her. I put my first obedience title on a gsd when I was 19. 
I took her home to visit my mother who has had several gsl dogs including an import who became regional siegerin and she too had never seen a pup with as high a drive before. This puppy just was the wrong one for my family and situation and there is nothing wrong with admitting it and finding one that is a better fit. Had my family circumstances been different or if it had been just me, I would have kept her and gotten her the training that she needed, but with little people visiting and other smaller animals living in our home I needed to put their safety first.


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## Caroline5

Deb said:


> Caroline5, it sounds like you did all anyone could ask of you. As you said, she was just too much puppy for you at this stage. You honored your breeder's contract for which you should be complimented for. Take some down time and heal and then start your search again. I would look into breeders who do show and obedience and I'd weigh the obedience more than the showing, especially if you have never shown before. Sorry it didn't work out for you and thank you for all your patience and the work you put in trying to make it work.



Thank you for your kind words. 

Actually I have bred and shown before. I delivered my first litter (on my own at that) when I was 20. Out of that litter we were blessed with an amazing boy named Arro who was a multi BIS BISS winner and titled in obedience too. Arro was a great dog that could be taken everywhere and be with everyone.
I'm posting a photo of Arro, albeit not a good one but that win was amazing and such an honour when Mr Maxwell Riddle said he had only ever seen one other dog of his quality and that was Manhattan who he had put best in show at Westminster. 
So what ever pup I get has big shoes to fill.


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## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> Had my family circumstances been different or if it had been just me, I would have kept her and gotten her the training that she needed, but with little people visiting and other smaller animals living in our home I needed to put their safety first.


But this is exactly my point - if you don't have the time or circumstances which allow for training a puppy, you might want to consider an older dog. All puppies are going to bite and run and be rambunctious - it's what they do. No shame in admitting you don't want to deal with it, but just realize that those issues won't be limited to just this one puppy.


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## Caroline5

lalabug said:


> IMHO you have handled the situation perfectly. You pulled out all the stops and tried every avenue you could. It's not an easy decision to make to return something you have put so much time and effort into. But the tag line of your thread explains it all. The dog wasn't a good match, it happens, you did your best, you are doing what's right for your family/home/other pets. That you are humble enough to admit this is commendable.
> Hugs. And best of luck finding another pup in the future. <3


Thank you


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> But this is exactly my point - if you don't have the time or circumstances which allow for training a puppy, you might want to consider an older dog. All puppies are going to bite and run and be rambunctious - it's what they do. No shame in admitting you don't want to deal with it, but just realize that those issues won't be limited to just this one puppy.


I am a stay at home mom and devoted a lot of time to working with her, not just on our morning and evening walks and when we played in the backyard, but also throughout the day whenever the opportunity arose. I would take her to petstores, feedstores, hardware stores, wherever dogs were allowed. She was not lacking for attention or training.


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## Jax08

Can I ask what her breeding is? PM me, not public. Thanks!


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## wolfstraum

No way would I go for any kind of cross type - too many variables. You really cannot know what to expect.

Unfortunately, many sport breeders look for drive drive drive drive. All the "names" to hit in the pedigree....all the trial results .....more important than understanding and knowing the pedigree. Everyone knows the right words and phrases to promote dogs, but it is just PR and rhetoric...not real understanding.

Lee


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## wolfy dog

She doesn't sound too over the top to me. When you gave her up she was an adolescent and they can be airheads. I think you gave it enough time and I commend you for choosing sanity over a crisis for the dog and you. I hope you do realize that every GSD can be like this. You can't see it when you look at these cute fur balls in the litter. Check out the parents and their lines. I know you probably know that already. Grand babies and GSD pups are a tough combination. Have you looked into Collies?


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## Caroline5

wolfstraum said:


> No way would I go for any kind of cross type - too many variables. You really cannot know what to expect.
> 
> Unfortunately, many sport breeders look for drive drive drive drive. All the "names" to hit in the pedigree....all the trial results .....more important than understanding and knowing the pedigree. Everyone knows the right words and phrases to promote dogs, but it is just PR and rhetoric...not real understanding.
> 
> Lee


 I am not blaming the breeder and the person who recommended the litter to me is extremely knowledgable about the breed and highly respected in the schutzhund community. My guess is that after she left the litter she "found herself" as sometimes happens and realized that she liked being alpha. She is a great dog and will do great in schutzhund. I am not knocking her or the breeder, she was just not right for my situation.


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## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> She doesn't sound too over the top to me. When you gave her up she was an adolescent and they can be airheads. I think you gave it enough time and I commend you for choosing sanity over a crisis for the dog and you. I hope you do realize that every GSD can be like this. You can't see it when you look at these cute fur balls in the litter. Check out the parents and their lines. I know you probably know that already. Grand babies and GSD pups are a tough combination. Have you looked into Collies?


 Ah but you never saw her in person so are not able to judge what her behavior was like. I had her evaluated by numerous people and they all said the same thing, that her behavior was extreme. My friend has puppies similar in age and they behave nothing like she did. Plus this friend has bred many litters over the past 45 years and she could not believe how high her prey drive and how alpha she was.


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## Deb

BrodyRoo said:


> But this is exactly my point - if you don't have the time or circumstances which allow for training a puppy, you might want to consider an older dog. All puppies are going to bite and run and be rambunctious - it's what they do. No shame in admitting you don't want to deal with it, but just realize that those issues won't be limited to just this one puppy.


Not all puppies are the same. This is someone with GSD experience. You can get a puppy that is over the top. Her breeder thought this one would be a good fit, it turned out not to be. That happens. She returned it to the breeder, honoring her contract. I commend her for her honestly, for doing what was right for the puppy and her family and all the work she put in. I truly hope you never get a puppy that is over the top, because you could find yourself in the same position as she was in. It could happen to almost anyone.


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## Caroline5

Ok, I want to say something that I feel is extremely important.
The thing that I would like people to take from my experience is that it is ok to admit when a particular dog is to much. If more people did that then there would be fewer headlines screaming about a child being mauled by an out of control dog. 
The right gsd is out there for me and for my family. In time I will find him/her.


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## wolfstraum

Caroline5 said:


> I am not blaming the breeder and the person who recommended the litter to me is extremely knowledgable about the breed and highly respected in the schutzhund community. My guess is that after she left the litter she "found herself" as sometimes happens and realized that she liked being alpha. She is a great dog and will do great in schutzhund. I am not knocking her or the breeder, she was just not right for my situation.



That was not what I was trying to say - sorry....just that 90% of the litters I see bred are based on putting high drive together with high drive dogs for sport....especially in breeders who are very active in sport....it is a "more is better" philosophy....

as far as the mixing types.....it is not like adding cream and sugar to coffee to make it more palatable....there are such wide variations in the three types that it is really a genetic lottery to mix them.....I can understand it as a one off in a big kennel with generations and generations of a family....but doing it thinking you are going to get some of each and a balance between the two is really wishful thinking for 95% of the litters done like this.


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## scarfish

don't put your new baby up for adoption if it's temperament doesn't meet your expectations. the dog doesn't even seem extra out of control to me. sounds like you purposely brought in a young dog and baby in at the same time and you're overwhelmed.


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## Caroline5

scarfish said:


> don't put your new baby up for adoption if it's temperament doesn't meet your expectations. the dog doesn't even seem extra out of control to me. sounds like you purposely brought in a young dog and baby in at the same time and you're overwhelmed.


Whoops I think you may have misread what I wrote. First of all the pup went back to the breeder last month. 
Secondly I am a 56 year old stay at home grandma with one older teen left at home and plenty of flexible time to work with a puppy.


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## Caroline5

wolfstraum said:


> That was not what I was trying to say - sorry....just that 90% of the litters I see bred are based on putting high drive together with high drive dogs for sport....especially in breeders who are very active in sport....it is a "more is better" philosophy....
> 
> as far as the mixing types.....it is not like adding cream and sugar to coffee to make it more palatable....there are such wide variations in the three types that it is really a genetic lottery to mix them.....I can understand it as a one off in a big kennel with generations and generations of a family....but doing it thinking you are going to get some of each and a balance between the two is really wishful thinking for 95% of the litters done like this.



I agree with you there, there is a philosophy that more is better, which is sad. More high prey drive, more alpha and with asl more extreme, more flying trot etc etc. 

I so wish I could find one more along the lines of what Arro was like, great stable temperament, not extreme and great stamina.


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## ksotto333

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, I want to say something that I feel is extremely important.
> The thing that I would like people to take from my experience is that it is ok to admit when a particular dog is to much. If more people did that then there would be fewer headlines screaming about a child being mauled by an out of control dog.
> The right gsd is out there for me and for my family. In time I will find him/her.


It's difficult to come out and face nay-sayers on this forum, so kudos to you. Only you know how this pup was, and whether things could change for the better. I think your Arro was beautiful, good luck to you in the future finding the right dog for you.


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## LuvShepherds

I have found from experience you can't assume any puppy will become a good therapy dog. If you really want one, get an older dog. Your dog Arro looks like an American line dog. The puppy you returned sounds like a Working line. Breeders sometimes make mistakes but a good breeder should know by 7 weeks what a dog's temperament is going to be. It's too bad this ever happened. The breeder should know enough to make a good match in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with returning the dog. I probably would have done it right away before getting attached, so the dog could be with someone who needs that kind of energy.


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## Caroline5

ksotto333 said:


> It's difficult to come out and face nay-sayers on this forum, so kudos to you. Only you know how this pup was, and whether things could change for the better. I think your Arro was beautiful, good luck to you in the future finding the right dog for you.


Thank you. I have nothing to be ashamed of, I did all that I could do and then some. Owning a dog is supposed to be enjoyable and not full of stress or a drain on the bank account for training.


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## LuvShepherds

One more thing, I would insist on meeting the parents of a puppy before buying. Then you will have a better idea of what the puppy will be like. I just saw the puppy was shipped to you. I wouldn't have the dog I have now if I hadn't met the parents first.

I agree with the post that said crossing lines is an unknown. You could get the worst of both lines, not the best.


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## gsdluvr

You are obviously an experienced GSD owner. So you knew what to do. I agree, it is hard to predict a pup, they are definitely a crap shoot. 

That being said, there are certainly breeders out there who have just the temperament that you are looking for. Will the pup turn out to be a champion in the show ring? Iffy at best. But I'm quite sure you can have a good shot at working with a pup more suited to companion role. Good luck!


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## Caroline5

LuvShepherds said:


> I have found from experience you can't assume any puppy will become a good therapy dog. If you really want one, get an older dog. Your dog Arro looks like an American line dog. The puppy you returned sounds like a Working line. Breeders sometimes make mistakes but a good breeder should know by 7 weeks what a dog's temperament is going to be. It's too bad this ever happened. The breeder should know enough to make a good match in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with returning the dog. I probably would have done it right away before getting attached, so the dog could be with someone who needs that kind of energy.


Very true and had she not been a good therapy dog that would have been ok, so long as she was a good family pet. But her temperament was beyond either one of those.

As for sending her back sooner, you are right, I should have, but there is this big thing called pride that got in the way and the determination to not give up and to do all that I could to make it work.


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## scarfish

Caroline5 said:


> Whoops I think you may have misread what I wrote. First of all the pup went back to the breeder last month.
> Secondly I am a 56 year old stay at home grandma with one older teen left at home and plenty of flexible time to work with a puppy.


yeah to be honest i didn't read your whole massive block of text. sorry. thought you just got a new puppy while expecting a baby then couldn't handle it.


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## Muskeg

Nothing wrong with returning a pup that isn't a good fit. Especially when kids are involved. 

A good IPO dog does not have to be over-the-top but I have seen that happen fairly often. It seems people who like this kind of dog for sport often keep the dogs as kennel dogs anyway, so they don't have the same expectations or issues as people who keep their dogs as companions. 

Maybe you could find a pup with similar lines to your first GSD. I know my American-line type GSD would be a nice fit for your situation, and totally trustworthy with little ones, so they are certainly out there. I'd even consider looking for a young adult from a rescue organization.


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## Jenny720

Your Wgsl pup was gorgeous I remember when your getting your pup from the airport. Gsd Pups can be tons of work and I know some are more work the others and there is a range of intensity depending on the personality of the pup. you can a very intense pup from any line. I also recommend getting an adult it can guarantees the temperament you are looking for. Sorry it didn't work out I'm sure it was a very hard decision - it doesn't always work out - wishing you the best in your searc.


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## LuvShepherds

Caroline5 said:


> Very true and had she not been a good therapy dog that would have been ok, so long as she was a good family pet. But her temperament was beyond either one of those.
> 
> As for sending her back sooner, you are right, I should have, but there is this big thing called pride that got in the way and the determination to not give up and to do all that I could to make it work.


It sounds like you didn't realize what you had at first and thought she might settle down. No blame to you, the breeder should have known her dogs better.


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## scarfish

scarfish said:


> yeah to be honest i didn't read your whole massive block of text. sorry. thought you just got a new puppy while expecting a baby then couldn't handle it.


also i just realized i got your thread mixed up with someone else's. i came back and replied on the wrong thread.


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## Caroline5

scarfish said:


> scarfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah to be honest i didn't read your whole massive block of text. sorry. thought you just got a new puppy while expecting a baby then couldn't handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also i just realized i got your thread mixed up with someone else's. i came back and replied on the wrong thread.
Click to expand...


Lol, I've done that before.


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## Caroline5

Jenny720 said:


> Your Wgsl pup was gorgeous I remember when your getting your pup from the airport. Gsd Pups can be tons of work and I know some are more work the others and there is a range of intensity depending on the personality of the pup. you can a very intense pup from any line. I also recommend getting an adult it can guarantees the temperament you are looking for. Sorry it didn't work out I'm sure it was a very hard decision - it doesn't always work out - wishing you the best in your searc.


Actually with having cats I have found that getting a pup would be better. That way the cats are able to knock some respect into the pup. Two of our cats were very tolerant with her inspite of her disrespectful behavior. They would stand their ground and swat at her but never hurt her. My third cat was afraid of her and would run as soon as he saw her. 
Plus, even though my kids are nearly 17 and adults they would still like the fun of having a rolly poly puppy with puppy breath etc.


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## lhczth

Puppies can change once they leave the litter. They can change from 7 weeks to 12 weeks when their drives start to wake up. Breeders need to know the lines they are working with and hopefully know when this might happen in a pup. You did what was best for you and the pup. As a breeder it can be frustrating, but far better to get a pup back than have it and the owner miserable. 

As far as lines, there are laid back easy to handle WL just like their are ASL and GSL that have very good levels of drive and energy. I have a male pup in my current litter that is a dream to live with. Rock solid, not crazy over the top in drive. Some people would look at the pedigree and think "crazy sport lines", but I know the sire, some of his kids, the mother, her mother, her grandmother, her sire, the sire of the mother, etc. No surprise to me. 

Where abouts are you located (general area)? We might be able to give you some suggestions for breeders.


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## Chip18

Aww the "OP" made the right choice for them! Too much "puppy!" The "puppy" sounds pretty normal to me also but I think the cat/puppy thing most likely made everything worst??

Cat owners tend to be "particulalyr" sensitive to "issues" as I've seen?? The clueless tend to go for the ... "well hope it work out thing??" And the particularly sensitive go for the this puppy/dog is outa here! If an owner is "expecting" little to no issues in that regard and the dog/puppy has "issues" that dog/puppy is "done!" 

The puppy sounds pretty normal to me??? But ... as described ... if "therapy" dog was also in the future ... yeah that one sounds like a "pretty poor prospect??" A theory dog that is taught to "tolerate" people. Does not seem to be the way to go?? So yeah not a good match. 

As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ... it seems like "lhczth" and I will add "Fodder" most likely know who those "Breeders" are??? 

Sorry it did not work out.


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## wolfstraum

Yes - there are GSD working line dogs who ARE therapy dogs....Marsha Seck of traumwolfen in Nebraska has several females who are AKC titled Therapy Dogs....even a mother - daughter combo. The one female has a litter right now and knowing the parents, having spent time with the dam and having lived with the sire, I know that these definitely have the potential to be great companion dogs and do therapy as well.


Lee


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## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Aww the "OP" made the right choice for them! Too much "puppy!" The "puppy" sounds pretty normal to me also but I think the cat/puppy thing most likely made everything worst??
> 
> Cat owners tend to be "particulalyr" sensitive to "issues" as I've seen?? The clueless tend to go for the ... "well hope it work out thing??" And the particularly sensitive go for the this puppy/dog is outa here! If an owner is "expecting" little to no issues in that regard and the dog/puppy has "issues" that dog/puppy is "done!"
> 
> The puppy sounds pretty normal to me??? But ... as described ... if "therapy" dog was also in the future ... yeah that one sounds like a "pretty poor prospect??" A theory dog that is taught to "tolerate" people. Does not seem to be the way to go?? So yeah not a good match.
> 
> As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ... it seems like "lhczth" and I will add "Fodder" most likely know who those "Breeders" are???
> 
> Sorry it did not work out.


Actually, there has never been a time when I didn't have a gsd without a cat. My friends even called me "the dog lady". We never had any issues between our cats and our dogs and there were times when we had several dogs plus puppies all living in the house. 
As for normal puppy behavior, without you having seen her there is no way you can say that. Normal perhaps if she were a malanois with high prey drive. I has her evaluated by 4 professional trainers who have trained for the police, military and schutzhund, plus by a gsd breeder with 45 years experience breeding and training. They all said the exact same thing, her drive was very high, two of them would have loved to have bought her because they knew that she had the potential for doing very well in schutzhund. 
She isn't working line she is actually german showlines. Her sire has produced hundreds of puppies including some that are gentle as lambs.


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## Caroline5

lhczth said:


> Puppies can change once they leave the litter. They can change from 7 weeks to 12 weeks when their drives start to wake up. Breeders need to know the lines they are working with and hopefully know when this might happen in a pup. You did what was best for you and the pup. As a breeder it can be frustrating, but far better to get a pup back than have it and the owner miserable.
> 
> As far as lines, there are laid back easy to handle WL just like their are ASL and GSL that have very good levels of drive and energy. I have a male pup in my current litter that is a dream to live with. Rock solid, not crazy over the top in drive. Some people would look at the pedigree and think "crazy sport lines", but I know the sire, some of his kids, the mother, her mother, her grandmother, her sire, the sire of the mother, etc. No surprise to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where abouts are you located (general area)? We might be able to give you some suggestions for breeders.


Aria is german showlines. 
I am in the Pacific Northwest but would travel for the right puppy.


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## lexiz

For people saying that the puppy's behavior is "normal," that may be true for some puppies, but obviously not for the puppy that you were expecting. 

I think it's great that you gave yourself and the puppy the best chances for success in the future. Keep your head up, you will find the perfect puppy for you!


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## Caroline5

lexiz said:


> For people saying that the puppy's behavior is "normal," that may be true for some puppies, but obviously not for the puppy that you were expecting.
> 
> I think it's great that you gave yourself and the puppy the best chances for success in the future. Keep your head up, you will find the perfect puppy for you!


I agree, and for me normal puppy behavior does not include a 4 month old puppy lunging, and barking with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for a school bus early in the morning.


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## lexiz

Caroline5 said:


> I agree, and for me normal puppy behavior does not include a 4 month old puppy lunging, and barking with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for a school bus early in the morning.


Agreed. I don't think people can say if behavior is normal or not if they haven't seen it for themselves.


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## Caroline5

lexiz said:


> Agreed. I don't think people can say if behavior is normal or not if they haven't seen it for themselves.


Plus especially not normal for a puppy who has had so many positive experiences with children, horses, ferry boat rides, going to the ocean, shopping and I can go on and on.


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## Spetzio

Caroline5 said:


> Aria is german showlines.
> I am in the Pacific Northwest but would travel for the right puppy.


Ah, you're in my neck of the woods(ish). Sounds like you made a good judgement call based off of your lifestyle and for the sake of the pup as well. Nothing to be ashamed of. 

Is the breeder local to the PNW? (if so, would you mind pm'ing me the name? this is more out of curiosity than anything else)


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## Caroline5

Spetzio said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aria is german showlines.
> I am in the Pacific Northwest but would travel for the right puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, you're in my neck of the woods(ish). Sounds like you made a good judgement call based off of your lifestyle and for the sake of the pup as well. Nothing to be ashamed of.
> 
> Is the breeder local to the PNW? (if so, would you mind pm'ing me the name? this is more out of curiosity than anything else)
Click to expand...

The breeder isn't in the PNW or even on the west coast.


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## Caroline5

Some photos of Aria


----------



## lhczth

Chip18 said:


> As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ...


Actually, yes, there are WL dogs serving as SD. Sound nerves, clear head, drive, but not stupid drive. I placed one, actually an IPO titled dog too, in 2013.


----------



## Caroline5

lhczth said:


> Chip18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I have come to understand there are "breeders" that do produce "WL" puppies that can act as service/therapy dogs?? News to me but I have seen them?? OP "if" you want to try again ...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, yes, there are WL dogs serving as SD. Sound nerves, clear head, drive, but not stupid drive. I placed one, actually an IPO titled dog too, in 2013.
Click to expand...

Define stupid drive please.


----------



## lhczth

When their desire to chase, bite, kill (small animals or chase game), react over rides their ability to listen and hear commands or to settle and live in a normal household. That is the best I can come up with.


----------



## Caroline5

lhczth said:


> When their desire to chase, bite, kill (small animals or chase game), react over rides their ability to listen and hear commands or to settle and live in a normal household. That is the best I can come up with.


Yup, that was Aria.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Actually, there has never been a time when I didn't have a gsd without a cat. My friends even called me "the dog lady". We never had any issues between our cats and our dogs and there were times when we had several dogs plus puppies all living in the house.
> As for normal puppy behavior, without you having seen her there is no way you can say that. Normal perhaps if she were a malanois with high prey drive. I has her evaluated by 4 professional trainers who have trained for the police, military and schutzhund, plus by a gsd breeder with 45 years experience breeding and training. They all said the exact same thing, her drive was very high, two of them would have loved to have bought her because they knew that she had the potential for doing very well in schutzhund.
> She isn't working line she is actually german showlines. Her sire has produced hundreds of puppies including some that are gentle as lambs.


This was a SL GSD, uh ... wow??? I know very little of SL's but have to say what you describe is not what I would have expected??? Aww ...well so much for my safe if pressed GSD recommendation.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there has never been a time when I didn't have a gsd without a cat. My friends even called me "the dog lady". We never had any issues between our cats and our dogs and there were times when we had several dogs plus puppies all living in the house.
> As for normal puppy behavior, without you having seen her there is no way you can say that. Normal perhaps if she were a malanois with high prey drive. I has her evaluated by 4 professional trainers who have trained for the police, military and schutzhund, plus by a gsd breeder with 45 years experience breeding and training. They all said the exact same thing, her drive was very high, two of them would have loved to have bought her because they knew that she had the potential for doing very well in schutzhund.
> She isn't working line she is actually german showlines. Her sire has produced hundreds of puppies including some that are gentle as lambs.
> 
> 
> 
> This was a SL GSD, uh ... wow??? I know very little of SL's but have to say what you describe is not what I would have expected??? Aww ...well so much for my safe if pressed GSD recommendation.
Click to expand...

It's all good. Here is the thing, if you look at a family with several children you will find that each one is different, I have 4 and they all have different levels of energy and interests. It's the same in a litter of pups, you can have different levels of drive there too.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Just want to say that I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and this pup. I know it was a hard decision for you to make, but it sounds like the best decision for both the pup and your family.

Best of luck in your search for the 'right' pup. Looking forward to the day you have new pictures to post.


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## Chip18

lhczth said:


> When their desire to chase, bite, kill (small animals or chase game), react over rides their ability to listen and hear commands or to settle and live in a normal household. That is the best I can come up with.


You know ... I don't disagree! I'd use the term over the top drives??? 

I saw it with the "Pit" I rescued fresh off the street! No people issues, no dog issues but "Cat's???" Yeah ... we have a problem here??? That dog ... pretty much put my Cat v Dogs, "theories" to the test! That slight tug sideways thing ... I often "advocate" yesss ... a waste of time here! No crate at hand and "paws on the ground" it was time to "Keep it real!" So yeah ... "hang the dog it was!" It took "twice" but the message got threw the dog "now" laid down when the cats approached and "No Chasing!!"

Worked out fine ... I was actually "disappointed" that I had to resort to that?? But "hard consequences" for poor choices ... "worked out fine!" 

So yeah for me ... this pup sounds pretty "normal" for a dog?? But yeah "I'm" flexible in my approach ... whatever it takes! But for a SL/GSD ... the behaviour as described ... yeah I don't know much about SL's but it does sound pretty much "unexpected???" 

Aww well so much for my "relatively" safe GSD recommendations.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> You know ... I don't disagree! I'd use the term over the top drives???
> 
> I saw it with the "Pit" I rescued fresh off the street! No people issues, no dog issues but "Cat's???" Yeah ... we have a problem here??? That dog ... pretty much put my Cat v Dogs, "theories" to the test! That slight tug sideways thing ... I often "advocate" yesss ... a waste of time here! No crate at hand and "paws on the ground" it was time to "Keep it real!" So yeah ... "hang the dog it was!" It took "twice" but the message got threw the dog "now" laid down when the cats approached and "No Chasing!!"
> 
> Worked out fine ... I was actually "disappointed" that I had to resort to that?? But "hard consequences" for poor choices ... "worked out fine!"
> 
> So yeah for me ... this pup sounds pretty "normal" for a dog?? But yeah "I'm" flexible in my approach ... whatever it takes! But for a SL/GSD ... the behaviour as described ... yeah I don't know much about SL's but it does sound pretty much "unexpected???"
> 
> Aww well so much for my "relatively" safe GSD recommendations.


Having had pups and cats together before I need to say that her behavior was over the top in comparison to the gsd pups I had in the past. She didn't just give chase, but rather shut off her hearing and switched into a frantic sliding all over the floor maniac.


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## wolfy dog

Caroline5 said:


> Having had pups and cats together before I need to say that her behavior was over the top in comparison to the gsd pups I had in the past. She didn't just give chase, but rather shut off her hearing and switched into a frantic sliding all over the floor maniac.


I know this is well after the fact but she should have never had a chance to practice this behavior. I do agree though that it was the best decision to give her back to preserve the sanity of humans and dog.


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## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Having had pups and cats together before I need to say that her behavior was over the top in comparison to the gsd pups I had in the past. She didn't just give chase, but rather shut off her hearing and switched into a frantic sliding all over the floor maniac.


LOL ...oh I don't doubt it. I'm an old hand at the cat dog thing! I have lots of stuff from the experts on here and up to what 17 cats and five dogs for over 14 years at one time or another and never had an issue so my own advise and experiance to add.

I've had absolutely freaking cat proof dogs my guys don't even perceive cats in the environment! Rocky "proved" that one twice! The first time I figured well maybe he did not see them ... they saw him and I saw them. I looked at Rocky and nope nothing??? But the last one was feet away ... he had to see that as he was pointed that way but ... cat's are not prey so whatever ... I don't care. 

Most likely my other dogs had been doing or ... not doing the cat ignoring thing for years and I just had not noticed?? I was surprised when I found I'd been feeding a couple of stray cats in our yard for months?? One day I saw this big furry guy eating dinner of the patio table and right above a couple of my dogs ... they paid the stranger no heed at all. 

But then .... Pit off the street rescue while on my way to work recently!!! A real sweetheart, great with Rocky great with people but the cats??? Uh oh ... we got a "serious freaking issue right here???

That dog was short, fast agile and freaking powerful ... I'd always had hybrids but not a pure "Pit??" I was stunned at how strong that freaking dog was??? And I had no crate as I was not expecting to be taking in a dog uh that day??? But ... I do have five cats and now ... as I was soon to discover I had a "freaking serious" cat dog problem!

I did manage to keep my core principles intact ...once I got home and released the "Cats as it were." ... despite "Joe Galaxies" advise ... My Cats don't need "escape routes" becasue they have nothing to escape from! It's the dog's job to fit in not the Cat's job to adjust, is how I roll! 

And ... we got it done ... 24 hours later the new threat to life and limb of my cats ... laid down if approached by the cats! "Proof of concept provided" by my apt named "Spooky" when she first came in the living room and saw that dog (who was on a SLL) the dog moved and "Boom" she was gone!!! Honestly ... I did not expect to see her (spooky) in the living room for days, if not weeks or months?? But ... after some very hard SLL leash corrections ... sigh "straight up pressure" not sideways, corrections sideways would have been a waste of time with this dog! 

No Crate at hand ... no time for the "Two week shutdown" or the "Place Command." I had a situation that needed to be handled ... right freaking now!! So drag leash and Consequences for "poor choices" it was! And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned??? 

So yeah ... "I" got it done in record time but I'm kinda disappointed because ... as I like to "say well if I can do it anyone can" because "I'm not a pro!" But you know I had no "Crate" so my hand was forced as it were. I had to go to work in another day and I could not leave "Marilyn" with five cats to keep safe ... one of them would have bolted from the back bedroom room sooner or later! And if that dog was not secured ... you had no chance of stopping her!! Sadly ... we had to give her back ..."Marilyn worked to hard to find her owners ... I felt. 

But yeah so the drive thing ... I get it and it sounds like you just weren't ready to be dealing with that crap??? I have to say the behaviour as described ... I did "assume" it was a WL GSD?? So I was surprised ... those are not the types of behaviour I would have "suspected??" 

Oh well I don't recommend WL GSD to anyone I know ... I'd have thought maybe possible ... if I found a new friend (All the friends and neighbors I know now are dog owning tools!) but this situation?? I guess even a SL GSD is/could be a dog to far??? 


Better luck next time but she is a beauty ... sorry it did not work out.


----------



## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> I know this is well after the fact but she should have never had a chance to practice this behavior. I do agree though that it was the best decision to give her back to preserve the sanity of humans and dog.


Oh I agree with you, she should have never been allowed to practice that behavior and trust me I tried. But here is the thing, when she was on leash and wearing a prong collar she listened and obeyed me, however as soon as I put on the chokechain, I could see her becoming more disobedient, put on the leather collar, even less and off leash, well forget it. She was smart and she knew that when she was off leash all she had to do was move fast and I was not able to catch her to correct her. She is the only dog I have ever needed to use a prong collar on and what kind of dog needs a prong collar at 14 weeks?


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## wolfy dog

Caroline, I have given up dogs too, for various reasons, many were fosters. Even re-homing fosters has been tough. I have never taken that lightly and it took me a long time before making a decision to do it and I have made sure they went to a safe and trusting home. After they left I always second guessed myself, even though I knew it was the right decision at the time. It takes some time to get really over it and you need some time to grieve the dog you wish you would have had. You learned a valuable lesson and the pup is safe. The breeder has much more information now about her so the next owner will be prepared. Take a breather and enjoy your peace for now.


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## wolfstraum

I agree it was best to return the pup to the breeder - most showline breeders will be happy to have a pup with this much drive for their programs. This one sounds like she had your number quickly   and played you as evidenced by the responses dependent on what equipment she wore....a pup who had her own agenda rather than wanting to please you is going to be harder to train and live with and a project for someone who wants a dog with this drive more for competition or some suitable work. 

There are both showline and working line breeders who can and do produce a dog who will suit you......sifting through the sought after qualities, which is rhetoric which everyone knows and uses is the tough part.


Lee


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## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> Caroline, I have given up dogs too, for various reasons, many were fosters. Even re-homing fosters has been tough. I have never taken that lightly and it took me a long time before making a decision to do it and I have made sure they went to a safe and trusting home. After they left I always second guessed myself, even though I knew it was the right decision at the time. It takes some time to get really over it and you need some time to grieve the dog you wish you would have had. You learned a valuable lesson and the pup is safe. The breeder has much more information now about her so the next owner will be prepared. Take a breather and enjoy your peace for now.


Actually Aria won't be going anywhere except to Germany for IPO training when she is older. She is back home to stay with her mother and her siblings. 
When they reintroduced Aria and Isa, her mother, who is smaller than Aria, Isa made it very clear who was boss and took Aria down several rungs on the ladder. Aria, who was always trying to be alpha was down on the ground begging for mercy, lol. 

She has a lot of respect for the breeder and he has little trouble with her. His wife is still working on it.


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## Deb

_And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned???_ 


Chip, you were very lucky. Drive can overcome training in a heartbeat. Had you had that Pit for longer you might have lost a cat or had one seriously hurt. I'm sorry, but 24 hours and hanging a dog twice won't stop a dog from chasing and catching if one of your cats had ran past it. And killing it if that's what it's going to do with a 'catch'.


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## Caroline5

Deb said:


> _And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned???_
> 
> 
> Chip, you were very lucky. Drive can overcome training in a heartbeat. Had you had that Pit for longer you might have lost a cat or had one seriously hurt. I'm sorry, but 24 hours and hanging a dog twice won't stop a dog from chasing and catching if one of your cats had ran past it. And killing it if that's what it's going to do with a 'catch'.


Which is why I just could not take that chance. Our cats and parrot are family. We have had all of them since they were about 9 weeks old, I even handraised my parrot and she caught and would have killed him had I not gotten there in time.


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## shepherdmom

BrodyRoo said:


> But this is exactly my point - if you don't have the time or circumstances which allow for training a puppy, you might want to consider an older dog. All puppies are going to bite and run and be rambunctious - it's what they do. No shame in admitting you don't want to deal with it, but just realize that those issues won't be limited to just this one puppy.


This is untrue in my experience. Not all German Shepherd puppies are going to bite and run and be the scary schutzhund dogs that some people have on here.


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## Caroline5

shepherdmom said:


> This is untrue in my experience. Not all German Shepherd puppies are going to bite and run and be the scary schutzhund dogs that some people have on here.


Exactly


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## Sabis mom

shepherdmom said:


> This is untrue in my experience. Not all German Shepherd puppies are going to bite and run and be the scary schutzhund dogs that some people have on here.


I have had literally dozens of gsd's through my doors. 
Although I have certainly seen normal puppy behavior I can't say I have seen the drama and issues described on this forum everyday.
House training never takes more then a few weeks at worst.
Biting is generally stopped for the most part by 4 months
Chasing isn't allowed. If it persists I simply prevent it until pup has some basics down.
Crate training is accomplished in days.

I simply cannot believe that I have been that lucky. I think it has more to do with reasonable, realistic expectations.
My working dog was hands down the easiest pup I ever raised and at no point did she run wild and savage other occupants of our home. 
And I will state again puppies learn what they live. You will never raise a gentle dog by being rough.

I can also tell you all that if you think gsd's are a handful don't ever get a Great Dane. Lol.


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## voodoolamb

Deb said:


> _And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned???_
> 
> 
> Chip, you were very lucky. Drive can overcome training in a heartbeat. Had you had that Pit for longer you might have lost a cat or had one seriously hurt. I'm sorry, but 24 hours and hanging a dog twice won't stop a dog from chasing and catching if one of your cats had ran past it. And killing it if that's what it's going to do with a 'catch'.


This. Absolutely this. 

I had been involved with pits for almost 2 decades I was involved in pit rescue. I personally put CGCs on 19 pit fosters and a few obedience and even an agility title on my personal pits. There's not much I know in this world, but I have a pretty dang good handle on that breed.

I 100% assure you that pit was not cured of cat issues in 24 hours. Terrier prey drive is very strong. Training is absolutely helpful in managing a pit bull but they are a breed that should never by 100% trusted around small animals.

To present one as cured of cat issues in that amount of time is dangerous advice. It will lead to dead kittens.

One of my pits was named Shiner. I ended up with Shiner because he was adopted through the rescue I worked with. After nearly a year in his new home, including loving on his cat "brother" (seriously there were pictures of the two cuddling together and eating out of the same dish) Shiner was looking out the window and saw a squirrel. He got so jacked up in prey drive when the kitty came into the room like he had done 1000 times before, Shiner suddenly turned and grabbed the cat killing it instantly. 

Stories like Shiner's are unfortunately fairly common with that breed. I adopted Shiner because it was a no kill place and I didn't feel comfortable with adopting him out to JQP again.

That bree is one that needs life time management as well as training. To present it as anything other than that is doing a disservice to the breed and is out right dangerous.


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## Caroline5

Sabis mom said:


> I have had literally dozens of gsd's through my doors.
> Although I have certainly seen normal puppy behavior I can't say I have seen the drama and issues described on this forum everyday.
> House training never takes more then a few weeks at worst.
> Biting is generally stopped for the most part by 4 months
> Chasing isn't allowed. If it persists I simply prevent it until pup has some basics down.
> Crate training is accomplished in days.
> 
> I simply cannot believe that I have been that lucky. I think it has more to do with reasonable, realistic expectations.
> My working dog was hands down the easiest pup I ever raised and at no point did she run wild and savage other occupants of our home.
> And I will state again puppies learn what they live. You will never raise a gentle dog by being rough.
> 
> I can also tell you all that if you think gsd's are a handful don't ever get a Great Dane. Lol.


Well then you have been lucky. I got my first gsd when I was a flighty irresponsible 14 year old teenager and my second when I was 18 and not much more responsible. Neither my mother or I knew much about training, let alone how to take care of a dog, yet we never experienced the kinds of issues that I did with Aria. Our dogs were sweet, kind, wellbehaved and did not run wild or savage the other occupants in our house. I am now in my 50's, much for mature, settled and responsible and I know a lot more about dogs than I did back then. My mom's dog was recognized as one of the top 5 gsd in utility in Canada a few years ago and when she saw how I worked with Aria and how she still behaved she was could not believe what she was seeing. She could see that I was trying to be the pack leader, to be alpha and yet Aria had made up her mind that she was not going to give in.


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## wmrancou

Wow, people sure do like to criticize, don't they? Just wanted to thank you for the post. You were right to return the pup. Let me tell you what you saved yourself from.

Eight years ago We stubbornly chose to hold on to our pup, who behaved exactly as you described. In fact, the details match so closely, it's eerie! We loved him dearly, and our EXHAUSTIVE work eventually yielded a loving boy we were devoted to. But...it was a full-time job for the first 4 years, and I ended up with permanent shoulder damage. People with lots of GSD experience told us his behavior was unusual. 

And before the judgemental folks chime in with your second-guessing, let me make it clear that we worked with him EVERY day, gave him LOTS of exercise, play, and mental/social stimulation, were never harsh or punitive, but neither were we pushovers. We devoted ourselves full-time to addressing his issues. Hired lots of professionals. Worked our butts off. Never gave up on him. But just because we did that, doesn't mean it was the smartest thing to do! And it leaves me with empathy for someone who made the other choice- not an excuse to judge them.

We just lost our boy to a sudden illness, and I am grieving. In a strange way, the trials I endured with him were the making of me. I learned how to access levels of inner strength I didn't know I had. So I will always love him. BUT...I would not put myself through that again. It simply shouldn't be that hard. If it is, there's something wrong. 

It wasn't your fault that pup wasn't the pup for you. Kudos for having the good sense to address the issue in the way that was right for you and your family.


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## BrodyRoo

shepherdmom said:


> This is untrue in my experience. Not all German Shepherd puppies are going to bite and run and be the scary schutzhund dogs that some people have on here.


You've had puppies that don't bite? Ever? They don't run? Ever? 

Yeah, okay.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> shepherdmom said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is untrue in my experience. Not all German Shepherd puppies are going to bite and run and be the scary schutzhund dogs that some people have on here.
> 
> 
> 
> You've had puppies that don't bite? Ever? They don't run? Ever?
> 
> Yeah, okay.
Click to expand...

 I think we need to differentiate between puppy play nipping and jumping up, grabbing at your arm and holding on like a mini schutzhund. Also the difference between play chasing and the turning off hearing out of control in high prey drive mode of running.


----------



## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> I think we need to differentiate between puppy play nipping and jumping up, grabbing at your arm and holding on like a mini schutzhund. Also the difference between play chasing and the turning off hearing out of control in high prey drive mode of running.


Meh, I have Mals and the only shepherds I spend a lot of time around are IPO dogs, so it sounds normal enough to me. 

However, my post said all puppies run and bite, which is true. To different degrees, sure, but that wasn't the point of my post, so I'm not sure why the insistence on arguing over it. 

Best of luck in your puppy search.


----------



## Deb

BrodyRoo said:


> You've had puppies that don't bite? Ever? They don't run? Ever?
> 
> Yeah, okay.


Well, actually Enya has never been a land shark. She put teeth on maybe five times, if that. Deja, BYB, many years ago was a pain in the you know what, but by three months was good about no teeth on people. My first Stryker was an absolute doll about it, figured out what was acceptable with his teeth and what wasn't. He stole a pink stuffed rabbit from my young daughter and it was always in his mouth. He'd run my fence line with that pink rabbit, put it down to bark at my drug lord neighbors, pick it back up and continue down the fence line. My second Stryker was also good, a few initial problems with biting, and then good. All but Deja were from IPO working lines.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we need to differentiate between puppy play nipping and jumping up, grabbing at your arm and holding on like a mini schutzhund. Also the difference between play chasing and the turning off hearing out of control in high prey drive mode of running.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, I have Mals and the only shepherds I spend a lot of time around are IPO dogs, so it sounds normal enough to me.
> 
> However, my post said all puppies run and bite, which is true. To different degrees, sure, but that wasn't the point of my post, so I'm not sure why the insistence on arguing over it.
> 
> Best of luck in your puppy search.
Click to expand...

Actually I'm not arguing, I'm having a discussion. It appears that for a lot of people this kind of behavior is normal german shepherd puppy behavior and the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't normal for many german shepherd puppies.


----------



## Dotbat215

Caroline5 said:


> She could see that I was trying to be the pack leader, to be alpha and yet Aria had made up her mind that she was not going to give in.



Sorry if you covered this already. I can't keep all the threads straight....What was she doing that made you think that? Besides the landsharking and crazy running around.


----------



## Caroline5

wmrancou said:


> Wow, people sure do like to criticize, don't they? Just wanted to thank you for the post. You were right to return the pup. Let me tell you what you saved yourself from.
> 
> Eight years ago We stubbornly chose to hold on to our pup, who behaved exactly as you described. In fact, the details match so closely, it's eerie! We loved him dearly, and our EXHAUSTIVE work eventually yielded a loving boy we were devoted to. But...it was a full-time job for the first 4 years, and I ended up with permanent shoulder damage. People with lots of GSD experience told us his behavior was unusual.
> 
> And before the judgemental folks chime in with your second-guessing, let me make it clear that we worked with him EVERY day, gave him LOTS of exercise, play, and mental/social stimulation, were never harsh or punitive, but neither were we pushovers. We devoted ourselves full-time to addressing his issues. Hired lots of professionals. Worked our butts off. Never gave up on him. But just because we did that, doesn't mean it was the smartest thing to do! And it leaves me with empathy for someone who made the other choice- not an excuse to judge them.
> 
> We just lost our boy to a sudden illness, and I am grieving. In a strange way, the trials I endured with him were the making of me. I learned how to access levels of inner strength I didn't know I had. So I will always love him. BUT...I would not put myself through that again. It simply shouldn't be that hard. If it is, there's something wrong.
> 
> It wasn't your fault that pup wasn't the pup for you. Kudos for having the good sense to address the issue in the way that was right for you and your family.


Thank you and my left shoulder is starting to feel better already. 
So sorry for your loss.


----------



## BrodyRoo

Deb said:


> Well, actually Enya has never been a land shark. She put teeth on maybe five times, if that. Deja, BYB, many years ago was a pain in the you know what, but by three months was good about no teeth on people. My first Stryker was an absolute doll about it, figured out what was acceptable with his teeth and what wasn't. He stole a pink stuffed rabbit from my young daughter and it was always in his mouth. He'd run my fence line with that pink rabbit, put it down to bark at my drug lord neighbors, pick it back up and continue down the fence line. My second Stryker was also good, a few initial problems with biting, and then good. All but Deja were from IPO working lines.


So they acted like normal puppies and bit and ran around until you taught them not to? Strange, seems like that was exactly my point in the first place...

Again, not understanding the insistence on "arguing" with me about this. 

All puppies bite and run around, except stuffed ones. To different degrees, yes, but that wasn't my point.


----------



## Deb

Dotbat215 said:


> Sorry if you covered this already. I can't keep all the threads straight....What was she doing that made you think that? Besides the landsharking and crazy running around.


If you go back and read the first page, it's all there, and then a little more on the following pages.


----------



## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> Actually I'm not arguing, I'm having a discussion. It appears that for a lot of people this kind of behavior is normal german shepherd puppy behavior and the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't normal for many german shepherd puppies.


And it is normal for many others. 

If that isn't what you want, that's fine. But don't imply that it was somehow a failing of the dog's that you got more than you bargained for. Puppies can't help what they are - it's up to us humans to set them up for success.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I'm not arguing, I'm having a discussion. It appears that for a lot of people this kind of behavior is normal german shepherd puppy behavior and the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't normal for many german shepherd puppies.
> 
> 
> 
> And it is normal for many others.
> 
> If that isn't what you want, that's fine. But don't imply that it was somehow a failing of the dog's that you got more than you bargained for. Puppies can't help what they are - it's up to us humans to set them up for success.
Click to expand...

I'm in no way implying that Aria failed, there is nothing wrong with her. What was wrong was that we were not right for each other. She will be a fantastic schutzhund and will hopefully follow in her father and her grandfather's footsteps.. Keeping her would have been setting her up for failure and possibly a death sentence, sending her back I'm allowing her to be the dog she was bred to be. Her behavior is normal for a high prey drive alpha gsd.


----------



## Sabis mom

Caroline5 said:


> Well then you have been lucky. I got my first gsd when I was a flighty irresponsible 14 year old teenager and my second when I was 18 and not much more responsible. Neither my mother or I knew much about training, let alone how to take care of a dog, yet we never experienced the kinds of issues that I did with Aria. Our dogs were sweet, kind, wellbehaved and did not run wild or savage the other occupants in our house. I am now in my 50's, much for mature, settled and responsible and I know a lot more about dogs than I did back then. My mom's dog was recognized as one of the top 5 gsd in utility in Canada a few years ago and when she saw how I worked with Aria and how she still behaved she was could not believe what she was seeing. She could see that I was trying to be the pack leader, to be alpha and yet Aria had made up her mind that she was not going to give in.


I was not judging in any way. A bad fot is a bad fit. I was simply stating an opinion in general. 
I don't follow rules or methods. I look at whats in front of me and deal with that


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## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> I'm in no way implying that Aria failed, there is nothing wrong with her. What was wrong was that we were not right for each other. She will be a fantastic schutzhund and will hopefully follow in her father and her grandfather's footsteps.. Keeping her would have been setting her up for failure and possibly a death sentence, sending her back I'm allowing her to be the dog she was bred to be.


And I never implied that you were wrong to send her back to the breeder. It sounds like it was absolutely the right decision for both of you.


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## Caroline5

wolfstraum said:


> I agree it was best to return the pup to the breeder - most showline breeders will be happy to have a pup with this much drive for their programs. This one sounds like she had your number quickly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and played you as evidenced by the responses dependent on what equipment she wore....a pup who had her own agenda rather than wanting to please you is going to be harder to train and live with and a project for someone who wants a dog with this drive more for competition or some suitable work.
> 
> There are both showline and working line breeders who can and do produce a dog who will suit you......sifting through the sought after qualities, which is rhetoric which everyone knows and uses is the tough part.
> 
> 
> Lee


Exactly on all that you said. She had her own adjenda from day one and it did not include being a family pet.


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## Dotbat215

Deb said:


> If you go back and read the first page, it's all there, and then a little more on the followingpages.


 I have. I see a lot of talk about running, biting, not listening to the OP.... I wanted to know more about what made her attribute this behavior to Alpha behavior rather than disobedient, puppy behavior. However in 9 pages of thread that has moved pretty quickly, I am open to the possibility that she mentioned it and I missed it.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in no way implying that Aria failed, there is nothing wrong with her. What was wrong was that we were not right for each other. She will be a fantastic schutzhund and will hopefully follow in her father and her grandfather's footsteps.. Keeping her would have been setting her up for failure and possibly a death sentence, sending her back I'm allowing her to be the dog she was bred to be.
> 
> 
> 
> And I never implied that you were wrong to send her back to the breeder. It sounds like it was absolutely the right decision for both of you.
Click to expand...

I know, I just didn't want you to believe that I thought she was a failure.


----------



## Deb

BrodyRoo said:


> So they acted like normal puppies and bit and ran around until you taught them not to? Strange, seems like that was exactly my point in the first place...
> 
> Again, not understanding the insistence on "arguing" with me about this.
> 
> All puppies bite and run around, except stuffed ones. To different degrees, yes, but that wasn't my point.



Maybe some of us aren't understanding what your writing and what you mean by it. It tends to come across as it's the OP's fault because she didn't/couldn't train it. _Puppies can't help what they are - it's up to us humans to set them up for success._
She hasn't said it was the puppy's fault, only that they weren't a good match in what she needed for her family and situation. That can happen. I don't think that makes her a failure in her training of the pup. Perhaps if she had wanted a dog for IPO and to not be interacting daily with family, small grandchildren, small pets, etc., she would have been exceedingly happy with this puppy. You can get an over the top puppy who would not do well in a family situation. Perhaps an IPO trainer could have turned this puppy into that, but how many people are IPO trainers and have that experience and training?


----------



## lexiz

I can count on one hand the number of times that my dog bit me as a puppy, and that includes accidental nipping. She has never been a mouthy dog, and was never a big chewer. It's a pretty wide generalization to say that all puppies are going to behave like the OP's did, and that she just didn't want to put the work in. It simply isn't true. The OP already has experience with GSDs, and had the puppy evaluated by multiple people, which leads me to believe that she is telling the truth when she says that the puppy was displaying a much higher than average drive.


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## Caroline5

Dotbat215 said:


> Deb said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you go back and read the first page, it's all there, and then a little more on the followingpages.
> 
> 
> 
> I have. I see a lot of talk about running, biting, not listening to the OP.... I wanted to know more about what made her attribute this behavior to Alpha behavior rather than disobedient, puppy behavior. However in 9 pages of thread that has moved pretty quickly, I am open to the possibility that she mentioned it and I missed it.
Click to expand...

Where to start, this might take a bit so forgive me, if I have to add more later. It's hard to explain. It wasn't just the running and biting, it was her mannerisms, the way she wouldn't back down. It was the way when I corrected her she showed little response or even growled at me. It was needing a prong collar at 14 weeks. It was how when I would bend over to do something and she would put her front legs on me in a dominant manner. I can go on and on..


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## BrodyRoo

Deb said:


> Maybe some of us aren't understanding what your writing and what you mean by it.


Maybe you're trying to read meaning into something that isn't there? I meant exactly what I wrote - those exact words. I'm sorry if you're having difficulty. 



> It tends to come across as it's the OP's fault because she didn't/couldn't train it.


No, I never said anything was anyone's fault. OP and the puppy were a bad match - it happens. The only thing I took issue with was the OP's characterization of the puppy's behavior as "over the top" and "alpha" driven, when it sounds like normal puppy behavior. 



> Perhaps if she had wanted a dog for IPO and to not be interacting daily with family, small grandchildren, small pets, etc., she would have been exceedingly happy with this puppy. You can get an over the top puppy who would not do well in a family situation. Perhaps an IPO trainer could have turned this puppy into that, but how many people are IPO trainers and have that experience and training?


I guess my only quibble here is that it sounds like this puppy is bred from IPO lines. So why buy a puppy bred like this rather than from more laid-back lines that would be a more natural fit? 

I do think the OPs expectations of puppy behavior are a bit overblown, and I do take issue with assigning motive to said behavior ("she had her own agenda" and she's "alpha") in such a young dog, but I don't think the OP did the wrong thing in rehoming this puppy.


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## Caroline5

lexiz said:


> I can count on one hand the number of times that my dog bit me as a puppy, and that includes accidental nipping. She has never been a mouthy dog, and was never a big chewer. It's a pretty wide generalization to say that all puppies are going to behave like the OP's did, and that she just didn't want to put the work in. It simply isn't true. The OP already has experience with GSDs, and had the puppy evaluated by multiple people, which leads me to believe that she is telling the truth when she says that the puppy was displaying a much higher than average drive.


Here is what I hope people take from this experience. If the puppy isn't the right one for you, take it back and find the one that is. By keeping it nobody wins, not the dog, not the person or animal who gets bitten and not the owner with the lawsuit against them. There are lots of dogs out there and somewhere there is one for everyone. 
I don't need a dog who when my husband would come upstairs to go to bed and see she was still out, would turn around and go sleep downstairs in his office because he didn't want to be jumped on and chewed on. Or a daughter who when she saw her would lean back against the wall with a sick look on her face because she didn't want to deal with her over exuberance. 
Speaking of my daughter, it broke my heart when I told her that Aria was gone and she let out a moan because she thought I has sent Aria back because she was unable to deal with her. My daughter is looking forward to starting out with a puppy who is a much better fit for us.


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## Caroline5

Furthermore, her sire has produced many puppies with all kinds of temperaments from laid back to high drive. His owner is the one that recommended this litter to me and believed that she would be a good fit. As is sometimes the case, her high prey drive dominant temperament blossomed after leaving her mother and siblings who were more dominant than she was.


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## lexiz

Caroline5 said:


> Here is what I hope people take from this experience. If the puppy isn't the right one for you, take it back and find the one that is. By keeping it nobody wins, not the dog, not the person or animal who gets bitten and not the owner with the lawsuit against them. There are lots of dogs out there and somewhere there is one for everyone.
> I don't need a dog who when my husband would come upstairs to go to bed and see she was still out, would turn around and go sleep downstairs in his office because he didn't want to be jumped on and chewed on. Or a daughter who when she saw her would lean back against the wall with a sick look on her face because she didn't want to deal with her over exuberance.
> Speaking of my daughter, it broke my heart when I told her that Aria was gone and she let out a moan because she thought I has sent Aria back because she was unable to deal with her. My daughter is looking forward to starting out with a puppy who is a much better fit for us.


I believe you did the right thing for yourself, your family, your current animals, and the puppy.


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Maybe you're trying to read meaning into something that isn't there? I meant exactly what I wrote - those exact words. I'm sorry if you're having difficulty.
> No, I never said anything was anyone's fault. OP and the puppy were a bad match - it happens. The only thing I took issue with was the OP's characterization of the puppy's behavior as "over the top" and "alpha" driven, when it sounds like normal puppy behavior.
> I do think the OPs expectations of puppy behavior are a bit overblown, and I do take issue with assigning motive to said behavior ("she had her own agenda" and she's "alpha") in such a young dog, but I don't think the OP did the wrong thing in rehoming this puppy.



What kind of gsd do you have and what do you do with them?


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## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> What kind of gsd do you have and what do you do with them?


I've already said I have Malinois. I compete in Rally, Obedience, Agility, Dock Diving, and IPO. 

My IPO club is 90% GSDs - mostly WGWL, some DDR, Czech, and WGSL in there as well. 

I'm friends with a few GSD breeders - again, mostly breeding for IPO. 

None of which has anything to do with anything, as far as I can tell. My experience with show lines is admittedly limited.


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## Caroline5

Caroline5 said:


> BrodyRoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you're trying to read meaning into something that isn't there? I meant exactly what I wrote - those exact words. I'm sorry if you're having difficulty.
> No, I never said anything was anyone's fault. OP and the puppy were a bad match - it happens. The only thing I took issue with was the OP's characterization of the puppy's behavior as "over the top" and "alpha" driven, when it sounds like normal puppy behavior.
> I do think the OPs expectations of puppy behavior are a bit overblown, and I do take issue with assigning motive to said behavior ("she had her own agenda" and she's "alpha") in such a young dog, but I don't think the OP did the wrong thing in rehoming this puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of gsd do you have and what do you do with them?
Click to expand...

I'm asking because it is all a matter of perspective. To you a puppy with Aria's temperament may be normal because those are the kind of gsd you are used to. But like people, gsd have a wide variety of temperaments. In other words, define normal. We could draw a line and put the kind I'm used to down around a 4 whereas Aria's temperament could be more like an 8. Is either one bad or it normal? BUT for what I'm used to an 8 is extreme. 
In my family, my husband, kids, cats, parrot and horses are all below 5. 
Yesterday when I was at the barn my horse was acting up, bucking and snorting. I had to put him in his place and he settled down, even though he is 15 1 hh and I'm 5 3", he respects me and won't challenge me. Aria in the other hand at 11 weeks was already challenging me. That to me is extreme and not normal for a puppy (my opinion) but for you it may well be exactly what you like.


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## BrodyRoo

We have a very different way of viewing things, which is okay. 

Like I said, best of luck to you in your puppy search. I hope you find a good fit.


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> We have a very different way of viewing things, which is okay.
> 
> Like I said, best of luck to you in your puppy search. I hope you find a good fit.


 Exactly. 
But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question. 
Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?


----------



## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?


Without knowing anything else about the puppy, I would assume the puppy was overreacting out of fear. Maybe the group of kids standing together looked like something totally different to the puppy? That's the problem with puppies - they have no knowledge of the world. 

I wouldn't leap to any conclusion other than the puppy clearly lacked confidence in that moment for whatever reason and might have a nerve issue down the road. Maybe. Or maybe it just needed more exposure to things.


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## LuvShepherds

Caroline5 said:


> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?


Yes, that reaction is extreme. But without meeting the dog and knowing more about the past history, I don't know. It sounds like a dog that has been teased or frustrated by children. Or that has a very low threshold for unexpected situations. It doesn't really matter now. You have the opportunity to find a different dog.


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?
> 
> 
> 
> Without knowing anything else about the puppy, I would assume the puppy was overreacting out of fear. Maybe the group of kids standing together looked like something totally different to the puppy? That's the problem with puppies - they have no knowledge of the world.
> 
> I wouldn't leap to any conclusion other than the puppy clearly lacked confidence in that moment for whatever reason and might have a nerve issue down the road. Maybe. Or maybe it just needed more exposure to things.
Click to expand...

 Trust me, she was exposed to a lot of different situations and she never showed any fear. She was a very confident puppy who took everything in stride. Jackhammers, ferry boat rides, airplane rides, fire engines, Seahawks mascot, horses, crowds of people, waves at the ocean, she would look and boldly shrug it off.


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## Caroline5

LuvShepherds said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that reaction is extreme. But without meeting the dog and knowing more about the past history, I don't know. It sounds like a dog that has been teased or frustrated by children. Or that has a very low threshold for unexpected situations. It doesn't really matter now. You have the opportunity to find a different dog.
Click to expand...

 There was never a chance for her to have been teased by kids. She was always with me and only outside when I was home.


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## Caroline5

LuvShepherds said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that reaction is extreme. But without meeting the dog and knowing more about the past history, I don't know. It sounds like a dog that has been teased or frustrated by children. Or that has a very low threshold for unexpected situations. It doesn't really matter now. You have the opportunity to find a different dog.
Click to expand...

 It matters to me because I'm still trying to make sense of all of this and am also grieving. I'm being told that her behavior was normal.


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## BrodyRoo

Without seeing the puppy, nobody can determine anything for sure. You already sent the puppy back. Time to move on.


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## wolfy dog

Caroline5 said:


> It matters to me because I'm still trying to make sense of all of this and am also grieving. I'm being told that her behavior was normal.


What others consider normal, drives someone else crazy. You did the best thing.


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## LuvShepherds

Caroline5 said:


> It matters to me because I'm still trying to make sense of all of this and am also grieving. I'm being told that her behavior was normal.


It might be normal or it might not. Puppies with drive can do all those things but without seeing the dog or a video, we can't tell you. A calm dog can still have high energy as a puppy. There is no point in trying to second guess. The dog wasn't right for you. There are calm German Shepherds but most are drivey and challenging if you aren't used it it. They also tend to settle down by ages 2-3. I have one right now that is still mostly a teenager and can be very challenging. I keep working with him and I'm finally starting to see some settling and maturity. If you aren't looking for that kind of dog, you should find one that fits with your family and lifestyle. Maybe even a slight older rescue, whose personality is already set so you know what you are getting. Not everyone is equipped for a high energy puppy.


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## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Without seeing the puppy, nobody can determine anything for sure. You already sent the puppy back. Time to move on.


 True, I know you haven't seen her, but I'm just curious, hypothetically speaking, if a friend of yours had a puppy who had experienced all sorts of exposure, who had not been tormented, who had gone to puppy kindergarten and knew the basic commands, come, sit, down, stay, leave it etc, who lived in a happy home where there was no arguing and you were told that they has behaved like that around a group of kids, would you say that was normal for a 4 month old high prey drive gsl puppy?


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## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> True, I know you haven't seen her, but I'm just curious, hypothetically speaking, if a friend of yours had a puppy who had experienced all sorts of exposure, who had not been tormented, who had gone to puppy kindergarten and knew the basic commands, come, sit, down, stay, leave it etc, who lived in a happy home where there was no arguing and you were told that they has behaved like that around a group of kids, would you say that was normal for a 4 month old high prey drive gsl puppy?


Im not a trainer, but I don't think that response has anything to do with drive, prey or otherwise. I would assume it was a fear response - who knows what triggered it? Group of kids looked like a weird shape? Weird smells? Who knows? One overreaction like that wouldn't cause me to draw any conclusions whatsoever. 

I'm sorry to tell you this, but there is literally nothing you could tell me that would cause me to label a 4 month old as "aggressive" or "dominant". It's a puppy acting like a puppy. It's a puppy that wasn't a good fit for you. *shrug*


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## wolfstraum

Caroline5 said:


> Exactly.
> But just out of curiosity I need to ask you a question.
> Would you consider it normal for a 4 month old puppy to totally unprovoked and never having had a bad experience with kids to lunge on hind legs, barking and with hackles up at a group of kids quietly waiting for the school bus?



I have seen behavior like this....it does not come from confidence....!! A normal 4 month old pup should be happy, wiggly and wanting the kids to pet and play with her....this is classic fearful behavior if exactly as described without stimulus.

Lee


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## Jax08

Caroline5 said:


> It matters to me because I'm still trying to make sense of all of this and am also grieving. I'm being told that her behavior was normal.


Here's the thing. We don't know. Is that normal as you described? My boy went off at about that age at a park with children bundled up in snow suits. They must have looked like monsters to him. He's an incredibly stable, friendly, dog. The aloof gene passed right on by him. So depending on the situation, depending on how you handled prior exposures and incidents, nobody can answer that with an educated answer.

I've seen a couple puppies come back to breeders that were simply to much for the owner they went to. These are incredible dogs that are going to do great in sport. They are incredible dogs that do great in the hands of an experienced handler. I've seen a dog that is with a handler that all the genetics for a great dog were in the pairing and the dog is suspicious and scared of everything. The wrong genetics plunked down into his body. You can't change that. You can only deal with the dog in front of you with the knowledge you have and the ability you have.

The bottom line was this simply wasn't the right dog for you. You can grieve. You waited for her. You lived with her. You had goals and expectations. So grieve. But stop beating yourself up. Stop beating up the puppy over the behavior.


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## Caroline5

I think from here we can segue into the topic of tail positions. A fearful and nervous dog carries their tail tucked down whereas a dominant and confident dog carries their tail out and curled up, Aria's tail was nearly always carried up with it curled. I never saw it tucked between her legs, she rarely behaved like the pup in the playful position and definitely never like the ones in the nervous, frightened or submissive pictures. When she lunged and went after people or dogs it was with her tail in the aggressive position. There is so much we can learn about how a dog is feeling by watching their body language.


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## wolfstraum

Based my other post on your description only......so!!!! ****IF**** the pup was truly in aggression rather than fear - then she was NOT of correct temperament and not only should not be kept as a pet in your family, but should not be used as a breeding female.

I stand behind my opinion that a 4 month old pup should be happy, outgoing, friendly - no matter what the lines or the breed - it is a baby and has no reason to fear or be aggressive at that age.

Another explanation for the tail position you saw is purely simple that she had a conformationally incorrect "gay tail"....and nothing to do with attitude.


Lee


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## melissajancie

Caroline5 said:


> It matters to me because I'm still trying to make sense of all of this and am also grieving. I'm being told that her behavior was normal.



I am sorry you are having to go through this. It can't be easy.


I am no expert when it comes to GSD's. I do know what it is like to deal with hot horses. I have raised one from birth and she was orphaned at 2 months. Unpredictable, dangerous - most trainers would not deal with her. I didn't give up but I can't tell you how many times I said "I wish I had a nice quiet quarter horse" after the 7th broken bone. Never am I able to relax with her. Fine when you are in your 20's - not so much fun when you are in your 50's.

So I can appreciate the fact that this particular pup was just over the top for you and wasn't a good fit and I agree you did the right thing but that doesn't make it easy and that doesn't stop you from grieving.

So take a deep breath - this too shall pass.


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## RainE

I don't think you should feel bad. I once rescued a purebred Siberian Husky off of Craigslist. Brought him to the vet and everything. He was a good dog, but just not the right fit for my home so I rehomed him to an experienced Husky owner. I drove rather far to meet with this person also. The moral of the story is, if the dog isn't a right fit for you, then there is nothing wrong about giving it back to the breeder, experienced owners, or rescues. Being miserable, both you and the dog, would ultimately just hurt the both of you in the end. Now being separated the pup has a chance of getting a more fitting home and you have a chance to feel comfortable and get a pup you really want.


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## Caroline5

Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.


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## Jax08

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.



Wait. Exactly what blame are you trying to lay at the feet of the people on this board?

That some say the behavior sounds normal? That some, including myself, say that we can't be sure because we haven't seen the puppy in person and there are other variables? 

Seriously, nobody here knows you. You could be completely over your head with a gold fish and we couldn't possibly know that. So how is it anyone's fault on this board if a person decides they can't handle a certain puppy and decides to not get another one? Why is anyone going off the word of strangers on the internet when quite often the advice is 'go find a trainer to help you in person'.

Do you want us to help justify your decision by saying the puppy was weak nerved? Aggressive? Genetically inferior in some way? You made your decision. It wasn't the right puppy for you. Period. End of discussion. We don't need to help justify your decision based on something you say that may or may not be an accurate depiction. You don't need to justify your decision to us. It was yours and yours alone to make.


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## SuperG

Caroline5 said:


> I think from here we can segue into the topic of tail positions. A fearful and nervous dog carries their tail tucked down whereas a dominant and confident dog carries their tail out and curled up, Aria's tail was nearly always carried up with it curled. I never saw it tucked between her legs, she rarely behaved like the pup in the playful position and definitely never like the ones in the nervous, frightened or submissive pictures. When she lunged and went after people or dogs it was with her tail in the aggressive position. There is so much we can learn about how a dog is feeling by watching their body language.


No doubt we can get a jump on our dogs by reading their posturing......but....my bitch did pretty much as you described....only with other dogs...however.....I saw it more as a function of insecurity versus dominance or true aggression...even though she will stand her ground nose to nose. I'm probably wrong but if my domineering pushy bitch was as dominant as she pretends.....she wouldn't be pretending by displaying the type of posturing you are describing.


SuperG


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## selzer

BrodyRoo said:


> Without seeing the puppy, nobody can determine anything for sure. You already sent the puppy back. Time to move on.


 
I disagree with this. This lady isn't an amateur in this breed. This is not normal of GSL dogs, unless it is possible that the desire for IPO competitions and titles have increased the emphasis on drives as was mentioned before. 

The behaviors mentioned here are very out of the norm for these lines, especially when in experienced hands. 

I think she came to the right solution, but the dog is beautiful, and I can understand grieving over the loss, especially if you don't have another shepherd. For shepherd owners, a house without a shepherd is just a house. 

I hope you find the pup you are looking for. I think you picked the best lines for what you want -- not saying WL cannot do it, well, they cannot, really, not the show part, it's hard enough to get points on a GSL in America. You might want to go with American Lines altogether. But I'm a GSL fancier and of course think they are the supreme beings. And any good representative should be able to do therapy, be good with the grandkids, and show in obedience. Show in conformation? well, yes, maybe in the all-breed rings, or an SV-type show. The expectations are not out of line for this line.


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## LuvShepherds

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.


In spite of some of the rude comments here, I think you got good advice from most. You want to know if the puppy is typical and the fault is yours or if something is wrong with the dog. You want to make sure it doesn't happen again with another dog.

Being as kind as I can be, I think it's a little of both based only on what you said. You had a very drivey puppy that was reacting to things in an extreme way. I have a working line dog. At five months he started barking terribly at other dogs. So I worked with a trainer and found that he had learned that behavior from another dog. I stopped the behavior. If my dogs see a squirrel, they will attack the window if I let them. I don't, I stop them. The behaviors you described are typical of high drive dogs, on the far edge of what I would call normal. The thing is, they can also be learned or taught.

To avoid having puppy problems again, before you ever get a dog, find a good trainer. Have that person help,you locate and pick another dog. Then work with the trainer from the time you get the puppy home. Another suggestion is to get the dog closer to 12 weeks or older and let the trainer do some of the early training for you.


----------



## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.


My first GSD was a working line/ pet line mix and he was crazy, and I made it 100 times worse by my lack of experience.

Yes, most people would be told that a lot of what was going on, was leadership, normal puppy stuff -- not the 4 month old aggression toward children. 

The thing is, too many people today are very far away from a culture of animal ownership, and don't really have a natural nack for it, and they get wrapped up with treating it like you would treat a human child, doggy day-care, dog parks, etc, and there are some issues for inexperienced handlers. 

Now you could have made this work, could have worked with the dog in front of you, if it was just you. And maybe she would have grown out of it. Not the dog for you in your situation. Not normal for the lines either. I think we start out with new, inexperienced owners that way, because it is normally the cause. There are dogs out there that are a little over the top, and we shouldn't forget that. If a newbie was reporting back with everything they are doing, trainers, etc, for 5 months, and their then 7 month old puppy was still being as much of a challenge, maybe some of us would be cutting them some slack and long before, we would have probably suggested having the dog evaluated by someone experienced with the breed.


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## Caroline5

Jax08 said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I know I'm driving you all crazy by not letting go, but here is something else to consider. Let's say Aria had been my first gsd and I had come here in distress not knowing what to do and been told her behavior was normal german shepherd puppy behavior. I might have thrown in the towel right then and there without knowing that not all gsd are like that and never known the joy of owning one who was right for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Exactly what blame are you trying to lay at the feet of the people on this board?
> 
> That some say the behavior sounds normal? That some, including myself, say that we can't be sure because we haven't seen the puppy in person and there are other variables?
> 
> Seriously, nobody here knows you. You could be completely over your head with a gold fish and we couldn't possibly know that. So how is it anyone's fault on this board if a person decides they can't handle a certain puppy and decides to not get another one? Why is anyone going off the word of strangers on the internet when quite often the advice is 'go find a trainer to help you in person'.
> 
> Do you want us to help justify your decision by saying the puppy was weak nerved? Aggressive? Genetically inferior in some way? You made your decision. It wasn't the right puppy for you. Period. End of discussion. We don't need to help justify your decision based on something you say that may or may not be an accurate depiction. You don't need to justify your decision to us. It was yours and yours alone to make.
Click to expand...

No blame whatsoever. I'm only stating that saying that Aria's behavior was normal gsd puppy behavior is not accurate. With all the different lines and levels of prey drive etc, there are various levels of behavior. A person with zero prior experience might not know this, might get rid of his dog without knowing that there might still be the perfect gsd out there for him.


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## Jax08

I don't disagree with that. But the way you stated your post puts blame on the people here in your hypothetical situation. That would be unfair and really out of line. 99.9% of the time, people are told to go find a trainer and often recommended to them. 

There was a person just recently with an aggression issue. Had been through several trainers telling her not to worry about the behavior So a person could be thru a dozen cookie trainers with bad advice and bad training and the problem could simply be the training and not the dog. Sometimes the dog just needs to be told "No! You will NOT do this". Or it could be the dog. We are sitting in our living rooms and can't possibly know for sure.

And, the bottom line for your situation is, this was your decision to make. There is no shame in making this decision that can only be the best for you and the dog. You don't need to justify that decision to anyone. It's a hard call to make and you should be commended for making it.


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## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> No blame whatsoever. I'm only stating that saying that Aria's behavior was normal gsd puppy behavior is not accurate. With all the different lines and levels of prey drive etc, there are various levels of behavior. A person with zero prior experience might not know this, might get rid of his dog without knowing that there might still be the perfect gsd out there for him.


Yes, well, I thought Frodo, my first GSD, was not normal. I thought I got him too late, 10 weeks. I got my next GSD, a bitch, at just under 6 weeks. Thankfully some of what Frodo taught me, helped me with Arwen. And, some of what Arwen taught me, was that I needed to learn a lot. 

The thing was, Frodo was normal. He was a normal puppy. He was not stubborn, independent, or dominant. He was not truly aggressive either. He was a normal dog in the hands of a novice dog owner, that made a ton of mistakes. And yes, there were moments when I thought a GSD was not right for me. 

But I was in love with the breed. I did try again. Not everyone will. 

The thing is, what you are describing is not so crazy that it would be totally out of the ordinary if a new person had this puppy. What would this puppy be like in the hands of a novice, even a stay-at-home novice? May this puppy have already bitten kids, or it's owner in an aggressive manner. I don't know. A high-drive, low-bite-threshold working line dog is often not a dog for beginners. And add over the top drives to a show line puppy, and yeah, you have a recipe for things not going so well.


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## Caroline5

selzer said:


> I disagree with this. This lady isn't an amateur in this breed. This is not normal of GSL dogs, unless it is possible that the desire for IPO competitions and titles have increased the emphasis on drives as was mentioned before.
> 
> The behaviors mentioned here are very out of the norm for these lines, especially when in experienced hands.
> 
> I think she came to the right solution, but the dog is beautiful, and I can understand grieving over the loss, especially if you don't have another shepherd. For shepherd owners, a house without a shepherd is just a house.
> 
> I hope you find the pup you are looking for. I think you picked the best lines for what you want -- not saying WL cannot do it, well, they cannot, really, not the show part, it's hard enough to get points on a GSL in America. You might want to go with American Lines altogether. But I'm a GSL fancier and of course think they are the supreme beings. And any good representative should be able to do therapy, be good with the grandkids, and show in obedience. Show in conformation? well, yes, maybe in the all-breed rings, or an SV-type show. The expectations are not out of line for this line.


Ok, thank you. This is the answer I have been looking for. You see, I have been told time and again by various people that Aria's behavior is "normal" for a german shepherd, not just gwl, but gsl and asl. I have been told that I am in no way qualified to own a german shepherd and it would be best to get a corgi or a golden retriever, all by people who have never met me or seen how Aria behaved. I am sure you can understand that my self confidence as a gsd owner and trainer has taken quite a hit because of this whole experience. Most of the people who said that this behavior is normal to me own gwl. I've been told that the temperament of the breed is very different than when I bred and showed gsd 30 years ago.
I prefer a gsl and would love to have another one, but I am hesitant because so many have told me that Aria's behavior is normal. I have good connections with breeders of asl who are looking for a showquality asl pup for me, but there are so many issues with them that I am hesitant to get one.


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## LuvShepherds

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, thank you. This is the answer I have been looking for. You see, I have been told time and again by various people that Aria's behavior is "normal" for a german shepherd, not just gwl, but gsl and asl. I have been told that I am in no way qualified to own a german shepherd and it would be best to get a corgi or a golden retriever, all by people who have never met me or seen how Aria behaved. I am sure you can understand that my self confidence as a gsd owner and trainer has taken quite a hit because of this whole experience. Most of the people who said that this behavior is normal to me own gwl. I've been told that the temperament of the breed is very different than when I bred and showed gsd 30 years ago.
> I prefer a gsl and would love to have another one, but I am hesitant because so many have told me that Aria's behavior is normal. I have good connections with breeders of asl who are looking for a showquality asl pup for me, but there are so many issues with them that I am hesitant to get one.


I still think getting someone to help you select a breeder is the best way to go. Learn the right questions to ask and you will eventually find a breeder with calmer dogs. Yes, the breed has changed, but it's still possible to find what you want. Last year I met several people with very calm, confident and lower drive German Shepherds. They were all WGSLs.


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## Caroline5

melissajancie said:


> I am sorry you are having to go through this. It can't be easy.
> 
> 
> I am no expert when it comes to GSD's. I do know what it is like to deal with hot horses. I have raised one from birth and she was orphaned at 2 months. Unpredictable, dangerous - most trainers would not deal with her. I didn't give up but I can't tell you how many times I said "I wish I had a nice quiet quarter horse" after the 7th broken bone. Never am I able to relax with her. Fine when you are in your 20's - not so much fun when you are in your 50's.
> 
> So I can appreciate the fact that this particular pup was just over the top for you and wasn't a good fit and I agree you did the right thing but that doesn't make it easy and that doesn't stop you from grieving.
> 
> So take a deep breath - this too shall pass.



When a friend of mine asked Andreas Hausberger, the chief rider from the Spanish Riding School about him riding the young stallions he told her that he did not ride them, his response was "Zat ist vy vee yuss eleves" "that is why we use eleves" eleves are the young trainees at the school. They use the young riders because they bounce better than the old experienced riders.
Looks to me like you need to choose the right when the choice is placed before you and find yourself an easier horse to ride.


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## Caroline5

LuvShepherds said:


> I still think getting someone to help you select a breeder is the best way to go. Learn the right questions to ask and you will eventually find a breeder with calmer dogs. Yes, the breed has changed, but it's still possible to find what you want. Last year I met several people with very calm, confident and lower drive German Shepherds. They were all WGSLs.


Ah but I did and the person is very experienced and highly knowledgeable about the breed, but at that time she did not show the traits that she did when she arrived. As soon as I took her out to the car I started to notice something wasn't quite right with her. For a puppy that had been leashtrained and taken out to various places she was pulling so hard on the leash that she was nearly choking herself.


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## Caroline5

Caroline5 said:


> Ah but I did and the person is very experienced and highly knowledgeable about the breed, but at that time she did not show the traits that she did when she arrived. As soon as I took her out to the car I started to notice something wasn't quite right with her. For a puppy that had been leashtrained and taken out to various places she was pulling so hard on the leash that she was nearly choking herself.


Next time I will be going myself to meet the mother and hopefully the father too, and I will sit with the litter and observe them myself until I know which one is the right one for me.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Which is why I just could not take that chance. Our cats and parrot are family. We have had all of them since they were about 9 weeks old, I even handraised my parrot and she caught and would have killed him had I not gotten there in time.


Beautiful little family.


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## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I just could not take that chance. Our cats and parrot are family. We have had all of them since they were about 9 weeks old, I even handraised my parrot and she caught and would have killed him had I not gotten there in time.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Beautiful little family.
Click to expand...

Thank you, beautiful yes, but little family we are not. 6 kids (stepfamily) 3 son-in-laws, 1 daughter-in-law, 4 grandsons ranging from age 3 to 3 weeks and hopefully many more in the future does not a little family make


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## wolfy dog

My dog would have killed the parrot and probably the cats as well if given the chance, yet she is stable but intense. There is nothing wrong with Deja so that in itself is not a sign that there was something wrong with the pup. I think, Caroline, you need to stop dwelling on it and move on, like others have said. Maybe this thread has run its course and we are talking in circles.


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## melissajancie

Caroline5 said:


> When a friend of mine asked Andreas Hausberger, the chief rider from the Spanish Riding School about him riding the young stallions he told her that he did not ride them, his response was "Zat ist vy vee yuss eleves" "that is why we use eleves" eleves are the young trainees at the school. They use the young riders because they bounce better than the old experienced riders.
> Looks to me like you need to choose the right when the choice is placed before you and find yourself an easier horse to ride.



Jazzy has settled in really nice since she is 10 years old now. She went through the terrible 5's. I would never get rid of her. Her dam was my very first horse I ever owned (I was 39) and had a passion for horses since I was 10.

I took her through the German Warmblood Mare approval tests before deciding to breed her. She twisted 8 days after foaling. Surgery was successful but then she twisted again 6 weeks later. Surgery was not successful the 2nd time around but it had been way too soon since the prior surgery. I was left with her foal whom I cherished and with a lot of patience we both pulled through. I still don't always trust her and I am still always 100% focused but I do know her triggers. She is 16'2 hands and I am 5' tall. Yet, I am the alpha and she does respect me. Her reactions were based out of fear as she doesn't want to hurt me. She has gained confidence over the years and hence has settled in really nicely.

Ya, I don't bounce. I hit the ground with a hard thud! :laugh2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Next time I will be going myself to meet the mother and hopefully the father too, and I will sit with the litter and observe them myself until I know which one is the right one for me.


Just a thought... read the German Shepherd standard, the part on temperament, and do some serious thinking about what qualities, and how those qualities will be exhibited in a pup or an adult, are to be considered bred to the standard.

You can't base you idea of an ideal Shepherd on what you have experienced in your life. In order to be fair to yourself and any GSD you may own in the future, you need to have realistic expectations of the breed and what it should be.


----------



## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> My dog would have killed the parrot and probably the cats as well if given the chance, yet she is stable but intense. There is nothing wrong with Deja so that in itself is not a sign that there was something wrong with the pup. I think, Caroline, you need to stop dwelling on it and move on, like others have said. Maybe this thread has run its course and we are talking in circles.


 Actually Selzer answered my question and confirmed what I had been feeling all along. That is that Aria's behavior was at the extreme end for gsl and that there are gsl with much calmer temperaments.


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## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next time I will be going myself to meet the mother and hopefully the father too, and I will sit with the litter and observe them myself until I know which one is the right one for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought... read the German Shepherd standard, the part on temperament, and do some serious thinking about what qualities, and how those qualities will be exhibited in a pup or an adult, are to be considered bred to the standard.
> 
> You can't base you idea of an ideal Shepherd on what you have experienced in your life. In order to be fair to yourself and any GSD you may own in the future, you need to have realistic expectations of the breed and what it should be.
Click to expand...

Sadly there are few gsd who are truly bred to the standard. Many people have read the standard and interpretinterpreted it incorrectly. For example what does the word sharp mean to you?


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## sebrench

I have a WGSL who has some spunk and an edge to him. The breeder trains for sport as well as show, and I think she considers working ability when breeding. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in IPO and I imagine her dogs don't compete with the top working lines, but my dog has some drive, definitely prey drive. In fact, the breeder said she usually recommends pups out of another of her females for people looking only for a family pet. I wasn't worried, as my last dog was from working lines, which I also enjoy. I don't really notice a lot of difference between Asher and my working line, except Asher is more social and less suspicious of people. I would really like to get chickens. But I'm pretty sure Asher would chase them and be too rough (not to say he'd purposely hurt or kill them), so I have, for the time-being, abandoned that idea. He's good with kids though and is instinctively gentle with my toddler. He has also bonded to one of my cats--the cat will jump in his ex-pen and sleep beside him, though he will occasionally chase the skittery one. If I had a parrot, I would be very cautious. I don't think he'd be a good dog to have around horses. Our neighbor keeps horses in our back field, and he is obsessed by them. He would love to chase them, but he will never get that chance.

(Incidentally, my working line GSD was wonderful with our cats, a sheltie, a 10 lb Pomeranian, an african-grey parrot, cockatiels, rabbits, ect. He only disliked strange dogs that were not a part of his pack).

It sounds like you ended up with a puppy that was not suited for your family, that perhaps was very high drive, and perhaps might be happier in a working home. The dog is young yet and shouldn't have any trouble finding another owner. You didn't drop him off in a kill shelter, abandon him along the side of the road, or sell him on craigslist to an inexperienced or incapable owner. Plus, you chose a breeder who is responsible enough to take back a dog that was not working out. I think your puppy will be fine. And I think you will have a better experience with your next GSD, should you decide to try again. There are several members of this forum who have lovely ASL GSDs. You might want to contact Xeph. I don't know her personally, and I've never met her dogs, but if I was looking for an american showline, she'd be a breeder I would be interested in. 

I also have a white shepherd. I hesitate to recommend them to anyone because there is such a bias against them, and you have to sort through a bunch of bad breeders to find a decent one, but if you're looking for a softer, mellower GSD with lower drive, they could be a possibility...


----------



## Caroline5

melissajancie said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a friend of mine asked Andreas Hausberger, the chief rider from the Spanish Riding School about him riding the young stallions he told her that he did not ride them, his response was "Zat ist vy vee yuss eleves" "that is why we use eleves" eleves are the young trainees at the school. They use the young riders because they bounce better than the old experienced riders.
> Looks to me like you need to choose the right when the choice is placed before you and find yourself an easier horse to ride.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jazzy has settled in really nice since she is 10 years old now. She went through the terrible 5's. I would never get rid of her. Her dam was my very first horse I ever owned (I was 39) and had a passion for horses since I was 10.
> 
> I took her through the German Warmblood Mare approval tests before deciding to breed her. She twisted 8 days after foaling. Surgery was successful but then she twisted again 6 weeks later. Surgery was not successful the 2nd time around but it had been way too soon since the prior surgery. I was left with her foal whom I cherished and with a lot of patience we both pulled through. I still don't always trust her and I am still always 100% focused but I do know her triggers. She is 16'2 hands and I am 5' tall. Yet, I am the alpha and she does respect me. Her reactions were based out of fear as she doesn't want to hurt me. She has gained confidence over the years and hence has settled in really nicely.
> 
> Ya, I don't bounce. I hit the ground with a hard thud!
Click to expand...

Where in SLC do you live? My daughter and sil will be moving to the Orwm area in Aug so that he can go to UVU.


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## Blitzkrieg1

The dog is hyper and lacks impulse control...ergo must be good for Schutzhund..lol


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## melissajancie

Caroline5 said:


> Where in SLC do you live? My daughter and sil will be moving to the Orwm area in Aug so that he can go to UVU.


I actually live in Heber City which is about 40 min from Orem. I am up in the mountains 15 miles from Park City. Not many people know where Heber City is which is why I put my location down as Salt Lake City. There are 5 lights in the entire town


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## Caroline5

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The dog is hyper and lacks impulse control...ergo must be good for Schutzhund..lol


As soon as she is old enough the breeder will be sending her for training in Germany.


----------



## Caroline5

melissajancie said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where in SLC do you live? My daughter and sil will be moving to the Orwm area in Aug so that he can go to UVU.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually live in Heber City which is about 40 min from Orem. I am up in the mountains 15 miles from Park City. Not many people know where Heber City is which is why I put my location down as Salt Lake City. There are 5 lights in the entire town
Click to expand...

 Do you know the trainer David MacMillan?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Sadly there are few gsd who are truly bred to the standard. Many people have read the standard and interpretinterpreted it incorrectly. For example what does the word sharp mean to you?


IMO, a sharp dog is a dog that is a little quicker to react to stimuli. As long as it is backed up with strong nerves, it reflects breed standard.

Here is the breed standard, this is the only interpretation that matters.

"The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next time I will be going myself to meet the mother and hopefully the father too, and I will sit with the litter and observe them myself until I know which one is the right one for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought... read the German Shepherd standard, the part on temperament, and do some serious thinking about what qualities, and how those qualities will be exhibited in a pup or an adult, are to be considered bred to the standard.
> 
> You can't base you idea of an ideal Shepherd on what you have experienced in your life. In order to be fair to yourself and any GSD you may own in the future, you need to have realistic expectations of the breed and what it should be.
Click to expand...

Plus sadly, the breeding and selling of gsd has become big business in Europe and most people want dogs for sport. They want dogs with high drive and the higher the better. They are getting away from what the standard says the temperament should be like. So American dogs don't know how to work and don't have the stamina either and European dogs have drive that is to high.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Plus sadly, the breeding and selling of gsd has become big business in Europe and most people want dogs for sport. They want dogs with high drive and the higher the better. They are getting away from what the standard says the temperament should be like. So American dogs don't know how to work and don't have the stamina either and European dogs have drive that is to high.


I don't know. From what I understand, the US is so large that few areas have clubs and those that do have clubs seem to have them clustered.

I am not sure how high drive GSDs are getting away from the standard. Here is a nice article on sheep herding and high drive. Heyne believed that the higher the drive the better. 
German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne

From that article is seems that high drive GSDs are spot on for expected GSD behavior.

There was just a long thread on here recently about ASL's successfully herding and having the stamina to do it. 

Define drive that is too high.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly there are few gsd who are truly bred to the standard. Many people have read the standard and interpretinterpreted it incorrectly. For example what does the word sharp mean to you?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, a sharp dog is a dog that is a little quicker to react to stimuli. As long as it is backed up with strong nerves, it reflects breed standard.
> 
> Here is the breed standard, this is the only interpretation that matters.
> 
> "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."
Click to expand...

Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
> My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.


WGSLs are not going to be bred to the AKC standard, but regardless, the interpretations are not all that dissimilar. I would not necessarily equate sharp with tough but protective, but both the AKC and the SV standard calls for a dog with the ability to protect so a GSD that is sharp falls well within the realm of normal. I would not say that a sharp dog would not let anybody into a home but ALL GSDs should be aggressive when necessary, it is the breed standard. 

AKC standard: "The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert;* both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand.* The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character."


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## Caroline5

The English translation that you posted was done by Fred Lanting and is a translation of the original standard. The german standard on the SV website is not the same as the original written by Stephanitz and so far I have been unable to find it online.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> The English translation that you posted was done by Fred Lanting and is a translation of the original standard. The german standard on the SV website is not the same as the original written by Stephanitz and so far I have been unable to find it online.


From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry was just comparing English translation to the german standard.
> My mother and I were discussing the german standard a few days ago and I asked her exactly what sharp means. She said it means tough, protective. Won't let anyone in and aggressive when necessary. It is not vicious and won't bite without reason.
> 
> 
> 
> WGSLs are not going to be bred to the AKC standard, but regardless, the interpretations are not all that dissimilar. I would not necessarily equate sharp with tough but protective, but both the AKC and the SV standard calls for a dog with the ability to protect so a GSD that is sharp falls well within the realm of normal. I would not say that a sharp dog would not let anybody into a home but ALL GSDs should be aggressive when necessary, it is the breed standard.
> 
> AKC standard: "The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert;* both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand.* The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character."
Click to expand...

Wesen
Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.

Verträglichkeit
Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.

I love what it says in the last line, gets along well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialization.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Wesen
> Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.
> 
> Verträglichkeit
> Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.
> 
> I love what it says in the last line, gets along well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialization.


I agree that is one of the hallmarks of a good German Shepherd.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.


I am trying to find it and haven't had any luck so far. I nearly got away with nabbing the book from my mom last time I was there because she had invited me to go through all of her gsd books and take what I wanted, well except that one.


----------



## melissajancie

Caroline5 said:


> Do you know the trainer David MacMillan?


Yes, he has been around for years. He has trained horses of some of my friends. If you want particulars then PM me please.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> From what I understand, there has not been any changes in temperament from the original written by Max and the current although I have been cautioned that the translation may be debatable.


So are you saying that the german standard on the SV website is the original written by Von Stephanitz?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> So are you saying that the german standard on the SV website is the original written by Von Stephanitz?


I am saying that I have been told that the temperament section is as the original.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am saying that I have been told that the temperament section is as the original.



This one from the german SV page is the original? Wesen
Sicher und selbstbewusst, robust, unbefangen, aufmerksam, physisch und psychisch hoch belastbar.

Verträglichkeit
Gutes und sicheres Sozialverhalten, verträgt sich nach entsprechender Sozialisation sehr gut mit Menschen und Tieren im Familienumfeld.

or the one written by Lanting? "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

There is only one SV standard as quoted above.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is only one SV standard as quoted above.


Ok, because the Lanting translation is not the same as the SV standard.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

They all basically say the same thing, even the AKC.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> They all basically say the same thing, even the AKC.


4
Ok, I'm going to have to call mama tomorrow to have her check the book and see what it says there, because Lanting added things that are not in the standard on the SV website.


----------



## Caroline5

Caroline5 said:


> 4
> Ok, I'm going to have to call mama tomorrow to have her check the book and see what it says there, because Lanting added things that are not in the standard on the SV website.


Either that or the SV has changed the standard because it is not the same as what Lanting said or what the AKC says. The English translation on the SV website is the most accurate translation of what the German temperament standard says on the SV website.

Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

"This is the “SV” standard originally set up by Max Von Stephanitz (the “inventor” of the German shepherd). It is currently managed by FCI whom allows the country of origin to dictate the standard. The standard itself is in German but* this entry has been translated by Fred Lanting."*

"The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

"The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong
nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and
(except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive
and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour,
resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,
guard, protection, service and herding dog. "

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "This is the “SV” standard originally set up by Max Von Stephanitz (the “inventor” of the German shepherd). It is currently managed by FCI whom allows the country of origin to dictate the standard. The standard itself is in German but* this entry has been translated by Fred Lanting."*
> 
> "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."


Yes, I have read that, I am just curious as to what it says in German.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong
> nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and
> (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive
> and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour,
> resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,
> guard, protection, service and herding dog. "
> 
> http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf


Here is an exact translation of what it says on the German SV website. Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> Here is an exact translation of what it says on the German SV website. Character
> Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
> Compatibility
> Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


What is important is that the FCI/SV standard is what reputable breeders are breeding to, and have been breeding to, for decades and the SV standard is what is to be expected in our breed. 

As I stated earlier, despite research, I could find no information on the temperament portion of the standard ever having been changed although I found that the term "aloof" was lost along the way in translation.


----------



## Chip18

Deb said:


> _And 24 hours later ..."Spooky" came out of hiding the dog saw her and laid down and "Spooky" proceeded to head butt her??? I was stunned???_
> 
> 
> Chip, you were very lucky. Drive can overcome training in a heartbeat. Had you had that Pit for longer you might have lost a cat or had one seriously hurt. I'm sorry, but 24 hours and hanging a dog twice won't stop a dog from chasing and catching if one of your cats had ran past it. And killing it if that's what it's going to do with a 'catch'.


LOL well you know ... sadly, I will never know ... as I had to give "Sally" back to her owner.  

But ... 24 hours later and "Sally" was a changed dog?? Yeah ... I'm "solid" on that one! And that "assessment" was proofed by the aptly named "Spooky!" And how "Spooky" is "Spooky" one might ask?? Well a housemate of her's a fellow "10' lb cat that as far as I saw "never did her harm" had her living in that as mentioned bedroom ... for 4 freaking years!!! She "Never" came out of the bedroom "until" sadly ..."Molly Clone" Disappeared?? 

Somehow ... she knew he was gone and now she came out?? That had only just recently happened and when she saw "Sally" and "Sally" moved " (on leah) Boom" within a tenth of a second "Spooky" was smoke!

I pretty much did not plan on seeing "Spooky" for months, if I'd been able to keep "Sally!" That is just one skittish cat one ... but the assessment that "Sally's" attitude had changed in 24 hours! Cat number two was "Stumpy!" How ... bad was "Stumpy" he was one of four I rounded up. Indoors only former garage cat and after two years a house cats and it was three years beyond that before "Stumpy" allowed me to touch him! Those are two cats that "Do Not Take Chances!" 

With Rocky/Struddell and Gunther ... no issues my Cat's understand dog behaviour! I do what I do "adapt and adjust" I seriously doubt anyone "here" has posted more on Cat V Dog than I?? And I had to throw a lot of it out the window! 

That sucked but back to basics! And that is "simply" "There Will Be Consequences For Poor Choices!!" And with for me ... chasing my freaking cats is a "Poor Choice!" Don't freaking "think about it" And yes ... it took twice and a "SLL" Battle Axe or a Rapier" depends on the skill of the user as to how it's use a DDC for the less "skillful" can accomplish the same thing. 

I do what I do but the assessment as to my "Success" was not made by me! I merely "observed" ... I did not "teach" Sally to lay down ... when a cat approached??? She "choose" to do that! Stumpy" and the apt named "Spooky" volunteered to "Proof" my work! 

Two hard "hard corrections" yes, and a few minor correction and "Sally" when she saw "Stumpy" approach her "Chose" to lay down! I did not teach that ... that was "Now" her "Choice." I merely observed ... so yeah not about me, you'd have to ask "Spooky and Stumpy" what they thought but you know ... they can't type??  

Pretty much for me ... a most amazing experiance ... "Vodoo" often speaks of "Game Breed Pit's?? I do "hybrids" so I'd never dealt with a purebred "Pit" ... and the one I "rescued" was not a game breed pit!" But ... you know what ... I was "Freaking Stunned!!!" This dog friendly, people friendly "pit" had a freaking serious freaking "Prey Drive Issue!" And in full drive ...she was a freaking "Monster???" I ... was "freaking stunned!!" Rocky at his worst ...had "nothing" on this dog ... and "Rocky" sent me to the hospital!!! :surprise:

So yeah (As they say ...you were not here) ... but of course ... everyone on the internet everyone s free to say what they belive?? But I'm not a "newbie" and I'm a pretty old hand at dealing with dogs with issues??? And I dare say that if 99.9% of JQP ... would have rescued this particular ... "People friendly, Dog Friendly Pit" and they happen to own cat also??? There is "Zero" doubt in my mind that ... "yeah" handing her over o A/C ... seems like a pretty good freaking idea to me!! 

So sorry ..."with all due respect"... "No One Can Tell Me That I Did Not Do What I've Done???" "Dog tested and cat approved " "there shall be consequences for poor choice!" Show Me kinda thing. And sigh ... as I want to say ..."There is always that guy" ... so you know ... Dog Tested ... Cat Approved ... "there shall be concensequese ..."for poor choices!" Nuff Said.


----------



## voodoolamb

@Chip18

The advice you give about your pit experience is going to get a cat killed one day.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> @Chip18
> 
> The advice you give about your pit experience is going to get a cat killed one day.


It is scary that people will think that a dog's raw genetics could be so easily, and permanently, changed in 24-48 hours as some trainers online would have you think. They need to start regulating those Youtube charlatans.


----------



## Caroline5

MineAreWorkingline said:


> voodoolamb said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Chip18
> 
> The advice you give about your pit experience is going to get a cat killed one day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is scary that people will think that a dog's raw genetics could be so easily, and permanently, changed in 24-48 hours as some trainers online would have you think. They need to start regulating those Youtube charlatans.
Click to expand...

I had discussed sending Aria to a professional trainer for some intense training to make her "safe" with a trainer who had trained gsd for the Marines etc and he told me of a dog who had gone through this and seemed better, but later attacked a child. I'm sorry but no dog is worth more than the safety of a child or other animal.


----------



## voodoolamb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is scary that people will think that a dog's raw genetics could be so easily, and permanently, changed in 24-48 hours as some trainers online would have you think. They need to start regulating those Youtube charlatans.


You can never change the genetics. *sigh* Training can absolutely be useful in managing them, but can't be relied on alone. 

My cat killer actually wasn't even a game bred pit. He was one of those hippo, American Bully, pet models.

He NEVER made an aggressive move towards another cat after I brought him home. But that was NOT training at all. That was me being on his butt and shutting down prey drive in its infancy. Can't trust a terrier to make good choices when it comes to small animals. You HAVE to make the right choices for them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> You can never change the genetics. *sigh* Training can absolutely be useful in managing them, but can't be relied on alone.
> 
> My cat killer actually wasn't even a game bred pit. He was one of those hippo, American Bully, pet models.
> 
> He NEVER made an aggressive move towards another cat after I brought him home. But that was NOT training at all. That was me being on his butt and shutting down prey drive in its infancy. Can't trust a terrier to make good choices when it comes to small animals. You HAVE to make the right choices for them.


LOL! Those terriers!


----------



## Deb

_So sorry ..."with all due respect"... "No One Can Tell Me That I Did Not Do What I've Done???" "Dog tested and cat approved " "there shall be consequences for poor choice!" Show Me kinda thing. And sigh ... as I want to say ..."There is always that guy" ... so you know ... Dog Tested ... Cat Approved ... "there shall be concensequese ..."for poor choices!" Nuff Said. _ 


You trained him to behave in front of you. But that was only one time and 24 hours isn't enough time to know if training even took. We took in a Mal for training due to going after small dogs and cats years ago. He got 'hung' a couple of times by the other trainer as when corrected he would go up the lead. She got him to where he sat next to her and didn't move, left the cats alone. He did great for a week. The day before he was to be sent back home with lots of admonitions that he never would be able to be fully trusted the Mal went after a cat again. I work rescue and you don't want to know how many dogs come in because they killed the family cat after years of getting 'along' just fine. But you can't train genetics out of a dog. We will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Chip, you have a very easy dog. Why would you even think about wanting a pit bull or another dog that requires that much maintenance?


----------



## gsdluvr

LuvShepherds said:


> I still think getting someone to help you select a breeder is the best way to go. Learn the right questions to ask and you will eventually find a breeder with calmer dogs. Yes, the breed has changed, but it's still possible to find what you want. Last year I met several people with very calm, confident and lower drive German Shepherds. They were all WGSLs.


Although he is far from show quality physically, I own a WGSL like this. He is MELLOW, sweet, and a good house alarm! At 1.5 years old in beginners class he was doing down stays while the pups broke and ran around him! Unfortunately, I was hoping for a drivey dog and his laid back personality and mine are not a great match. But I still love him!


----------



## Caroline5

gsdluvr said:


> LuvShepherds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still think getting someone to help you select a breeder is the best way to go. Learn the right questions to ask and you will eventually find a breeder with calmer dogs. Yes, the breed has changed, but it's still possible to find what you want. Last year I met several people with very calm, confident and lower drive German Shepherds. They were all WGSLs.
> 
> 
> 
> Although he is far from show quality physically, I own a WGSL like this. He is MELLOW, sweet, and a good house alarm! At 1.5 years old in beginners class he was doing down stays while the pups broke and ran around him! Unfortunately, I was hoping for a drivey dog and his laid back personality and mine are not a great match. But I still love him!
Click to expand...



Dang! Sounds like you got my dog and I got yours! Lol


----------



## gsdluvr

Caroline5 said:


> Dang! Sounds like you got my dog and I got yours! Lol


Lololol! I am constantly wondering why everyone else around me gets the high drive ones??????


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Caroline5 said:


> I had discussed sending Aria to a professional trainer for some intense training to make her "safe" with a trainer who had trained gsd for the Marines etc and he told me of a dog who had gone through this and seemed better, but later attacked a child.* I'm sorry but no dog is worth more than the safety of a child or other animal.*


This exactly.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> _So sorry ..."with all due respect"... "No One Can Tell Me That I Did Not Do What I've Done???" "Dog tested and cat approved " "there shall be consequences for poor choice!" Show Me kinda thing. And sigh ... as I want to say ..."There is always that guy" ... so you know ... Dog Tested ... Cat Approved ... "there shall be concensequese ..."for poor choices!" Nuff Said. _
> 
> 
> You trained him to behave in front of you. But that was only one time and 24 hours isn't enough time to know if training even took. We took in a Mal for training due to going after small dogs and cats years ago. He got 'hung' a couple of times by the other trainer as when corrected he would go up the lead. She got him to where he sat next to her and didn't move, left the cats alone. He did great for a week. The day before he was to be sent back home with lots of admonitions that he never would be able to be fully trusted the Mal went after a cat again. I work rescue and you don't want to know how many dogs come in because they killed the family cat after years of getting 'along' just fine. But you can't train genetics out of a dog. We will have to agree to disagree.


It is posts like this that makes wish there was a standing ovation button.


----------



## Caroline5

gsdluvr said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dang! Sounds like you got my dog and I got yours! Lol
> 
> 
> 
> Lololol! I am constantly wondering why everyone else around me gets the high drive ones??????
Click to expand...

Where are you located?


----------



## gsdluvr

@Caroline5 I sent you a PM


----------



## Caroline5

gsdluvr said:


> @Caroline5 I sent you a PM


I responded. Aria's breeder needs to downsize. I'm not sure if they will be selling one or both of her brothers. They are in Alabama.


----------



## LuvShepherds

gsdluvr said:


> Although he is far from show quality physically, I own a WGSL like this. He is MELLOW, sweet, and a good house alarm! At 1.5 years old in beginners class he was doing down stays while the pups broke and ran around him! Unfortunately, I was hoping for a drivey dog and his laid back personality and mine are not a great match. But I still love him!


How did you find that dog? I wanted a medium drive WL and ended up with a high drive but not over the top. Compared to a high drive of any other breed, he is mellow but compared to my other dog, not at all


----------



## gsdluvr

LuvShepherds said:


> How did you find that dog? I wanted a medium drive WL and ended up with a high drive but not over the top. Compared to a high drive of any other breed, he is mellow but compared to my other dog, not at all


He was a crazy, friendly bitey, pup who got mellower and mellower! Who knows??? I can tell you the rest of the litter was nothing like him! Sometimes I wonder if it's me. :grin2::grin2::grin2:


----------



## shepherdmom

BrodyRoo said:


> You've had puppies that don't bite? Ever? They don't run? Ever?
> 
> Yeah, okay.


Wow why so cranky, bad day? 

I have had working line pups who are land sharks and I've had soft pups who don't feel like they are biting at all compared to the land sharks. Those of us who have had both know exactly what I'm talking about. Not all German Shepherd pups are the same and not all people want to handle high drive mouthy pups.


----------



## LuvShepherds

gsdluvr said:


> He was a crazy, friendly bitey, pup who got mellower and mellower! Who knows??? I can tell you the rest of the litter was nothing like him! Sometimes I wonder if it's me. :grin2::grin2::grin2:


It could be you. I think some of my dog's drive is learned from and reinforced by my older dog. He was pretty calm as a young puppy except for his landsharking. She goes from off to ON in two seconds.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sabis mom said:


> I have had literally dozens of gsd's through my doors.
> Although I have certainly seen normal puppy behavior I can't say I have seen the drama and issues described on this forum everyday.
> House training never takes more then a few weeks at worst.
> Biting is generally stopped for the most part by 4 months
> Chasing isn't allowed. If it persists I simply prevent it until pup has some basics down.
> Crate training is accomplished in days.
> 
> I simply cannot believe that I have been that lucky. I think it has more to do with reasonable, realistic expectations.
> My working dog was hands down the easiest pup I ever raised and at no point did she run wild and savage other occupants of our home.
> And I will state again puppies learn what they live. You will never raise a gentle dog by being rough.
> 
> I can also tell you all that if you think gsd's are a handful don't ever get a Great Dane. Lol.


I think you have been lucky. I used to think the way you did. Then I got a puppy who had inner demons (I don't know how to describe it any other way) and he was not a normal dog. I failed and I will always regret that. 

BTW the way I've had a Great Dane. I've had working line Shepherds, I've had an Akita. I'm not an inexperienced dog owner.


----------



## BrodyRoo

shepherdmom said:


> Wow why so cranky, bad day?
> 
> I have had working line pups who are land sharks and I've had soft pups who don't feel like they are biting at all compared to the land sharks. Those of us who have had both know exactly what I'm talking about. Not all German Shepherd pups are the same and not all people want to handle high drive mouthy pups.


Not cranky, just no patience for obvious BS. All puppies bite. Some more than others, sure, but they all bite.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> shepherdmom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow why so cranky, bad day?
> 
> I have had working line pups who are land sharks and I've had soft pups who don't feel like they are biting at all compared to the land sharks. Those of us who have had both know exactly what I'm talking about. Not all German Shepherd pups are the same and not all people want to handle high drive mouthy pups.
> 
> 
> 
> Not cranky, just no patience for obvious BS. All puppies bite. Some more than others, sure, but they all bite.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to my situation?


----------



## shepherdmom

BrodyRoo said:


> Not cranky, just no patience for obvious BS. All puppies bite. Some more than others, sure, but they all bite.


Purposefully misunderstanding is a logical fallacy. > Just saying. No one else misunderstood what I was trying to say.


----------



## BrodyRoo

shepherdmom said:


> Purposefully misunderstanding is a logical fallacy. > Just saying. No one else misunderstood what I was trying to say.


Whatever you say.


----------



## BrodyRoo

Caroline5 said:


> Are you referring to my situation?


Nope, referring to ShepherdMom and her assertion that not all puppies run and bite. Which apparently isn't what she meant. But is what she said.


----------



## Sabis mom

shepherdmom said:


> I think you have been lucky. I used to think the way you did. Then I got a puppy who had inner demons (I don't know how to describe it any other way) and he was not a normal dog. I failed and I will always regret that.
> 
> BTW the way I've had a Great Dane. I've had working line Shepherds, I've had an Akita. I'm not an inexperienced dog owner.


I am pretty sure you read my post about my Bear. That was a pup that was born wrong. At 1.5 years I had him pts. I simply could not face the isolation he would have had to live with. 
Six weeks old stalking people. Six months old hunting and attacking other dogs. One year old broke free and attacked a human. 
It isn't a matter of never having had bad dogs. Its that I often get the impression that people have unrealistic expectations and instead of adapting methods to deal with the dog in front of them they give up.
I think it was the scary schutzhund dogs comment that I had a problem with. 
Great Danes. Love them. Rotten puppies but amazing dogs.


----------



## Caroline5

BrodyRoo said:


> Nope, referring to ShepherdMom and her assertion that not all puppies run and bite. Which apparently isn't what she meant. But is what she said.


Phew, I am a bit over sensitive right now. I wish it had just been running and nipping with Aria, that I could have handled. 
With my husband able to go back to work a few days a week and my daughter in school, the house is so quiet without Aria hear. The cats are all sleeping and Corey the African grey has stopped his morning dialogue. He chatters all morning, it is really funny to listen to him. He mimics the phone and oven beeps, says all sorts of sweet nothings that I say to him and my kids have heard him mimicking me talking on the phone and then saying Ok, Bye! Not bad for a 23 month old parrot.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> I know, I just didn't want you to believe that I thought she was a failure.


Aww ... you did fine! You didn't throw the puppy under the bus as it were, you merely stated "to much puppy for me" so back she goes ... AFAIK that's not a crime???


----------



## Chip18

LuvShepherds said:


> Chip, you have a very easy dog. Why would you even think about wanting a pit bull or another dog that requires that much maintenance?


Well ...Thank You ... I kinda thought being able to "achieve" that was kinda the whole point of "training/rehabbing" dogs?? And so you know ..yes in public with (Me) he appears to be just like any other well behaved doggy.  

But so you know and hey if you happen to come to Dayton NV and you stopped at Mavericks and saw him "waiting" for me outside the store and you tried to approach him ... "he would walk away!" Yeah he would technically "Break Place" but you know "rule one" we don't bite people, rule two ...make "Good Choices!" He chooses rule two and will step away! 

Just saw it the other day ... as I was stepping from the store .... a women attempted to approach him?? As I was ready to say "whatever??" She stopped when she saw him (Rocky) back up (She was a GSD person as it happens. ) at that point I said "Rocky" and he "then" was fine and was quite happy to meet her. 

And at home in eight years ... he is only "allowed" to interact freely (no input on guarding required) with "Two People!" My best friend and my DIL and it was uh years for her ... she lives in Ca so occasional drop in's. Marilyn took advantage of my temporary absence (and hard work) to allow the "DIL" thing ... worked out fine.  

For the record ... I have an easy dog now! Because I put the work in back then ... my "Easy Dog" sent me to the ER for stitches (breaking up one of five packs!) And I still have a permanently bent little finger as a reminder ... I lost round one! :surprise: 

Round Two, H/A and ... where did this come from?? I learned the value of "outthinking my dog" and the pitfall that is the "my other dogs ... thing." Work with the dog in front of you. Once I better understood that ... it worked out fine. I stopped reacting and started "thinking!" His behaviour scared the crap out of "Marilyn" way back in the day, he was like living with a "tick time bomb!" And he "waited" for seven months before there was any hint of uh ... "issues" that I saw???? So if he is an "Easy Dog" now ... it's becasue I put the work in. 

And to your question ... Miss (would have been named Sally) nope I was not looking for a "Pit" still gonna get a Boxer (when the time is right and yeah, I ought to get a Euro ... (GSD in a Boxer suit ... but my girl you know ...so 100 percent American Line it will be) ... I like goofy in my "Boxers!" But you know if a "cool dog crosses my path" if I can I will keep them! I don't care what that dogs "issues are" I can deal.  


And you know ... despite how I may come across ... I have learned from others here! Most likely ... had I not been here these few years ... I could not have done what I did with her ... in 24 hours??? 

So ...my "standard anyone can do this "Cat v Dog" stuff.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html

There you go "anyone could do that "stuff!" 


But ... when the "Paws" met the carpet" as it were ... I had no time for that crap! But ... I understand "conventional wisdom! And I'm pretty sure ... "LOL" had I actually chose to "come on here and ask questions" I'm pretty sure how "Experts" would have explained to me 'how what I did can't be done???" So yeah ... I did not bother to post I just did it!

And my "Cats Proofed" it ... but you know, "now" ... after the fact, been there and done it!! *"Post Behaviour Modification Analysis"* and folks explaining to me??? Why "what I did can't be done??" And fall back postion well sure you did it but it won't stick??? Good luck with that! 

But hey I had help. They just don't know it. 

But to drop names ... thank you "Voodoolamb" (anyway) you and are your well insistent "Game Bred Pit, Game Bred Pit ." "Sally" was not a "Game Bred Pit (AFAIK)" but she had pretty much every characteristic ...just short of that! So despite the dog friendly, people friendly ... happy go lucky behaviour ... I was on my toes! And when she first saw the cats (while on a freaking leash,) when she first moved toward a cat ... although prepared ... I was stunned at the speed ferocity and power!!!??? "We" ... have a "serious" problem here!!! :surprise:

Next comes "Baillif" if a dog that has a behaviour that is "unacceptable" you squish that behavior cold! And "Slam Dunc" per his advise on an unrelated topic ... I never bothered with my pretty much conventional ... "slight tug sideways thing!" So pretty much hard core ...straight up "KMODT" it was Cat Tested and Dog Approved! 

I addressed the serious issue "first" and then it "would" have been on to training but you know ... the dog got returned to her owners .... sigh. 

I had her for four days and we only an out the box issue for one! So yeah 24 hours later ... "No Problem! And when I got back home from work all my cats were fine and free as was the dog. As I am want to say "SHOW ME!" Homie school of dog training ... worked out fine.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Great she can get a fake title there and be breeding in no time!


----------



## Deb

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Great she can get a fake title there and be breeding in no time!


I'm confused. Who can get a fake title and be breeding in no time? And what fake title?


----------



## Caroline5

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Great she can get a fake title there and be breeding in no time!



Who are you talking about?


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Who are you talking about?


LOL it's not just you ... I got lost also ... but don't stress over it. Once you've been here awhile ...you'll see that this is what we do. All the "Usual Suspects" as it were. Once the issue has been solved or not in some cases ... the "discussion" ranges on ... happens all the time.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> LOL it's not just you ... I got lost also ... but don't stress over it. Once you've been here awhile ...you'll see that this is what we do. All the "Usual Suspects" as it were. Once the issue has been solved or not in some cases ... the "discussion" ranges on ... happens all the time.
Click to expand...

I'm just wondering about the fake title etc. Lol


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## selzer

These working line people, they think if a showline dog is titled, then it must be a fake title. 

My guess is they are thinking that the breeder of this dog will title her and then breed her. But, you did the right thing by giving her back to the breeder. What the breeder chooses to do is her business. Your options were clear, return to the breeder or put her down, if you believed her temperament was not correct and in the wrong hands would be dangerous.


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> These working line people, they think if a showline dog is titled, then it must be a fake title.
> 
> My guess is they are thinking that the breeder of this dog will title her and then breed her. But, you did the right thing by giving her back to the breeder. What the breeder chooses to do is her business. Your options were clear, return to the breeder or put her down, if you believed her temperament was not correct and in the wrong hands would be dangerous.


I believe her temperament is not correct to be a family pet. I know that in a schutzhund home she will excel. She is doing great back with the breeder because she respects him and is #5 in the pack of dogs.


----------



## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> I believe her temperament is not correct to be a family pet. I know that in a schutzhund home she will excel. She is doing great back with the breeder because she respects him and is #5 in the pack of dogs.


A German Shepherd's temperament is not correct if they cannot be a family pet. I read Max's book. I saw the pictures of the dogs playing with the little children. The people here like to say that the dog should be a working dog, and yes, the capt. says that, but the dogs should also be a family dog, and that was also stressed. 

With strong leadership, if this dog can excel both in the home and on the field, then perhaps 'tis what it is. But if we lose the ability for these dogs to function as pets, sacrifice that for the drives to perform a sport, not work, then we are producing dogs for sport. Something about that doesn't seem right to me.


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe her temperament is not correct to be a family pet. I know that in a schutzhund home she will excel. She is doing great back with the breeder because she respects him and is #5 in the pack of dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> A German Shepherd's temperament is not correct if they cannot be a family pet. I read Max's book. I saw the pictures of the dogs playing with the little children. The people here like to say that the dog should be a working dog, and yes, the capt. says that, but the dogs should also be a family dog, and that was also stressed.
> 
> With strong leadership, if this dog can excel both in the home and on the field, then perhaps 'tis what it is. But if we lose the ability for these dogs to function as pets, sacrifice that for the drives to perform a sport, not work, then we are producing dogs for sport. Something about that doesn't seem right to me.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Hopefully the breeder is correct in that she will settle down as she matures. 
When 2 of my cats were laying on the bed she would put her feet up on the bed and try to play with them, but the other one was afraid of her and would run. It was then that her high prey drive would kick in and she would totally ignore my commands and give chase.
I tried so very hard to be alpha and she refused to back down.


----------



## SuperG

Deb said:


> I'm confused. Who can get a fake title and be breeding in no time? And what fake title?


My dog has numerous fake titles over the years......no breeding in her future however.....


SuperG


----------



## zetti

selzer said:


> These working line people, they think if a showline dog is titled, then it must be a fake title.
> 
> My guess is they are thinking that the breeder of this dog will title her and then breed her. But, you did the right thing by giving her back to the breeder. What the breeder chooses to do is her business. Your options were clear, return to the breeder or put her down, if you believed her temperament was not correct and in the wrong hands would be dangerous.


There are plenty of WGSLs that can legitimately earn IPO titles. And I say that as a WL person. I've had both, including a WGSL who worked rings around my dud of a well bred WGWL.

Overall, the WLs are better suited to the work, of course. But to accuse an an entire class of breeders and judges of using 'fake titles' is really out there.


----------



## Caroline5

SuperG said:


> Deb said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused. Who can get a fake title and be breeding in no time? And what fake title?
> 
> 
> 
> My dog has numerous fake titles over the years......no breeding in her future however.....
> 
> 
> SuperG
Click to expand...

Please define a fake title.


----------



## zetti

SuperG said:


> My dog has numerous fake titles over the years......no breeding in her future however.....
> 
> 
> SuperG


I'm assuming the fake titles were purchased in Europe, yes?


----------



## Muskeg

Family pet has no real definition. It sounds like maybe this pup would be a fine family pet in an active sport home? We expect so much of our dogs, I wonder how most of them manage to live up to it sometimes.


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## Jax08

SuperG's fake titles were bought at midnight in a McDonald's Happy Meal. You have to give a special code word when ordering a hamburger meal in order to get the titles.


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## Caroline5

Muskeg said:


> Family pet has no real definition. It sounds like maybe this pup would be a fine family pet in an active sport home? We expect so much of our dogs, I wonder how most of them manage to live up to it sometimes.


This is taken from the SV website. 
Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.

Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


----------



## Muskeg

Every term from that SV website is subject to interpretation and pretty subjective. I've seen multiple threads here on what "social" means, for example.

What might make a fine family pet for some, probably would be a terror for others. I've seen this many times.

What I'm getting at is that sport titles are one attempt to get outside, experienced, and as objective as possible judgement of a dog's temperament. Which is what IPO attempts to do. But the term "good family pet" is so variable, it's nearly impossible to breed to this as a standard. In my opinion, this is especially true for our working breeds that are supposed to have a degree of aggression and prey/fight drive.


----------



## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> SuperG's fake titles were bought at midnight in a McDonald's Happy Meal. You have to give a special code word when ordering a hamburger meal in order to get the titles.


Great.....why don't you tell everyone......well you still need to know the special code.

My bitches current titles listed in the signature are....acquisition of her WPM ...she has a typing rate of 128 words per minute.....her BP and PR ratings are McVet certified at 127 over 76 and 62 beats per minute.

Might have to swing through the drive-thru and get some new ones........

SuperG


----------



## Caroline5

Muskeg said:


> Every term from that SV website is subject to interpretation and pretty subjective. I've seen multiple threads here on what "social" means, for example.
> 
> What might make a fine family pet for some, probably would be a terror for others. I've seen this many times.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that sport titles are one attempt to get outside, experienced, and as objective as possible judgement of a dog's temperament. Which is what IPO attempts to do. But the term "good family pet" is so variable, it's nearly impossible to breed to this as a standard. In my opinion, this is especially true for our working breeds that are supposed to have a degree of aggression and prey/fight drive.


It says "gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation"
She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant, but when her prey drive kicked in she refused to listen and obey. At that point our cats were faster than her and would find a bed to hide under, but the day would have come when all doors were closed and they had no place to escape to.


----------



## SuperG

Caroline5;8296585
She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant said:


> I remember that stage with all of my GSDs......
> 
> 
> SuperG


----------



## Caroline5

SuperG said:


> Caroline5;8296585
> She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember that stage with all of my GSDs......
> 
> 
> SuperG
> 
> 
> 
> How many gsd have you trained and how many grandbabies do you have?
Click to expand...


----------



## Sabis mom

Jax08 said:


> SuperG's fake titles were bought at midnight in a McDonald's Happy Meal. You have to give a special code word when ordering a hamburger meal in order to get the titles.


Nice. Now I want a Happy Meal.


----------



## Caroline5

Caroline5 said:


> SuperG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caroline5;8296585
> She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember that stage with all of my GSDs......
> 
> 
> SuperG
> 
> 
> 
> How many gsd have you trained and how many grandbabies do you have?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm asking because Aria was my first gsd in nearly 30 years and even though I had trained quite a few dogs and put obedience titles on them, this was my first dog in a very long time, plus my first dog with high drive. I do not have the experience to safely train a dog with Aria's temperament.
> Our oldest grandson just turned 3 and from there they are 16 months, 7 months and 3 weeks. That is only from 2 daughters. So with 4 more kids who have not has kids, you know there will be lots of grandkids. So you know that we need to have a safe dog. I felt I could not take the chance with Aria to hopefully "grow out of it".
Click to expand...


----------



## Sabis mom

Caroline5 said:


> This is taken from the SV website.
> Character
> Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
> 
> Compatibility
> Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


Cats run, dogs chase. Same with kids. I owned a bitch that enjoyed meeting people, loved all children and would steal them given any chance. 
Now I live with a prey monster who will hunt anything that moves. If I had other creatures in my home I would manage. I don't and I won't while she is here. To me it's no different then managing two dogs that don't get along. You rotate and you manage.
Some dogs are highly social and some are not. I expect a GSD to be energetic and aloof. I want to see alertness and a willingness to engage a trespasser. 
Shadow is not a good example of the breed but I understood early on that in spite of socialization she didn't want to be near strangers and would react to being touched. She is muzzled off my property. In our home she is sweet, confidant and playful. To energetic for small people but sweet. 
Again a bad fit is a bad fit. But perhaps you aren't looking for the right things? 
This is not an insult or an accusation, but you keep talking about past dogs and people you know. Perhaps one of them could help find what you want? 
I know for me, I had to realize that I could not replace Sabs. And some of my memories of dogs past may be a bit rosier then reality.


----------



## SuperG

Caroline5 said:


> How many gsd have you trained and how many grandbabies do you have?


4 dogs....3 GSDs....no grandbabies.....but plenty of baby nieces and nephews....plus a few infants which were allowed at work....as was my dog(s). I always took precautions when small humans were around my GSDs at that "tender" insolent age......generally tethered to me at my belt loop on a 6 foot lead.

Getting back to your comment "She knew exactly what NO and LEAVE IT meant, but when her prey drive kicked in she refused to listen and obey."....just reminded me of what "exactly" means.......My current bitch was a classic reactive specimen around other dogs......she's light years better today....BUT...by no means does she exhibit bullet-proof "exactly" offs when commanded if she hits a peaked level of arousal .....so the DDC gets employed....and her 10% failure rate becomes 9%......etc.

FWIW....I have no critique of what you have done....I assume you did exactly what is best for all involved.

SuperG


----------



## Nigel

Older pup with training and prior cat experience would be your best chance at a good fit imop. We have kids/grandkids along with 4 gsds. All were mouthy to some degree and all wanted to chase our cat. With training and maturity those things diminished.

Tuke (mostly asl) was not only a persistent biter of hands, arms, and feet she would go for faces as well. She matured into a fantastic kid dog. Tough puppies are often great dogs.


----------



## Caroline5

Nigel said:


> Older pup with training and prior cat experience would be your best chance at a good fit imop. We have kids/grandkids along with 4 gsds. All were mouthy to some degree and all wanted to chase our cat. With training and maturity those things diminished.
> 
> Tuke (mostly asl) was not only a persistent biter of hands, arms, and feet she would go for faces as well. She matured into a fantastic kid dog. Tough puppies are often great dogs.


You are lucky that happened, but I gave it a lot of thought and prayer and knew in my heart that this was the right thing to do. She was not bringing joy to me and she was frightening my family.


----------



## Caroline5

Sabis mom said:


> Cats run, dogs chase. Same with kids. I owned a bitch that enjoyed meeting people, loved all children and would steal them given any chance.
> Now I live with a prey monster who will hunt anything that moves. If I had other creatures in my home I would manage. I don't and I won't while she is here. To me it's no different then managing two dogs that don't get along. You rotate and you manage.
> Some dogs are highly social and some are not. I expect a GSD to be energetic and aloof. I want to see alertness and a willingness to engage a trespasser.
> Shadow is not a good example of the breed but I understood early on that in spite of socialization she didn't want to be near strangers and would react to being touched. She is muzzled off my property. In our home she is sweet, confidant and playful. To energetic for small people but sweet.
> Again a bad fit is a bad fit. But perhaps you aren't looking for the right things?
> This is not an insult or an accusation, but you keep talking about past dogs and people you know. Perhaps one of them could help find what you want?
> I know for me, I had to realize that I could not replace Sabs. And some of my memories of dogs past may be a bit rosier then reality.


A friend of mine said it best in regards to "replacing" a dog from the past and seeing them a bit rosier than reality. "So I look for a couple of qualities and stay away from the "deal breakers"." Obviously I will never be able to find one exactly like Arro or even my rosy memory of Arro, but I know there are certain qualities that are important to me and there are certain qualities which I do not want. Aria was gsl and Arro was asl, but they both were not extreme in the rear, they both had the kind of toplines I like. But the dealbreaker was the temperament.


----------



## Galathiel

Eh, might not have been luck that happened. It was the training and maturity that did the most work. 

You don't really need to continue defending your decision every time someone posts about puppies they had. 

Puppies are a lot more work than I remembered. I hadn't had one in 12 or 13 years when I got my Varik, my first WL (75/25 DDR/WGWL). It was the longest year of my life! I also have a 6 lb Persian and we worked constantly on impulse control. I also had young grandkids in the mix with a dog that had a lot of growing up to do and was a pushy dog. I always said that in other hands he would have been a despot!

Just be at peace with your decision and make your drop dead dealbreaker list and work with a good breeder that knows their lines and what they produce. Most won't have the male there for you to see though. It would be the height of hubris to think that their females would all be a perfect match to their male. Most responsible breeders will be doing using a male outside of their kennel.


----------



## selzer

Nigel said:


> Older pup with training and prior cat experience would be your best chance at a good fit imop. We have kids/grandkids along with 4 gsds. All were mouthy to some degree and all wanted to chase our cat. With training and maturity those things diminished.
> 
> Tuke (mostly asl) was not only a persistent biter of hands, arms, and feet she would go for faces as well. She matured into a fantastic kid dog. Tough puppies are often great dogs.


You may have something there. A pup with plenty of energy and bit rough around the edges may be excellent on the scale of being able to take some unintentional abuse or teasing, that some more biddable, gentle dogs, might find more difficult to suffer through. The one dog would be having a good time, while the latter dog would be more reluctant and hoping the little monsters would leave so she can relax.


----------



## zetti

Muskeg said:


> Every term from that SV website is subject to interpretation and pretty subjective. I've seen multiple threads here on what "social" means, for example.
> 
> What might make a fine family pet for some, probably would be a terror for others. I've seen this many times.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that sport titles are one attgempt to get outside, experienced, and as objective as possible judgement of a dog's temperament. Which is what IPO attempts to do. But the term "good family pet" is so variable, it's nearly impossible to breed to this as a standard. In my opinion, this is especially true for our working breeds that are supposed to have a degree of aggression and prey/fight drive.


 But, no one should be breeding to produce family pets. Family pets just happen in litters that are bred to the standard.

SCH was meant to be the breed suitability test and even today in its badly watered down form, it's what we have. Too much breeding of dogs without working titles and we basically lose the breed. Are there good dogs being bred untitled? Yes, due to the eccentricities of Mother Nature, bitches come in to heat when they do and stuff just happens. But, those should be dogs who can and will title.


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> You may have something there. A pup with plenty of energy and bit rough around the edges may be excellent on the scale of being able to take some unintentional abuse or teasing, that some more biddable, gentle dogs, might find more difficult to suffer through. The one dog would be having a good time, while the latter dog would be more reluctant and hoping the little monsters would leave so she can relax.


I agree, the German Shepherd I want needs to be safe, sane, secure, smart, stable, steady, have stamina and stunning. As for "little monsters" well they all have very responsible parents who are raising them to be respectful.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> You may have something there. A pup with plenty of energy and bit rough around the edges may be excellent on the scale of being able to take some unintentional abuse or teasing, that some more biddable, gentle dogs, might find more difficult to suffer through. The one dog would be having a good time, while the latter dog would be more reluctant and hoping the little monsters would leave so she can relax.


You know ... that is an excellent point.


----------



## Sabis mom

Caroline5 said:


> I agree, the German Shepherd I want needs to be safe, sane, secure, smart, stable, steady, have stamina and stunningl.


But it takes a dedicated loving owner to get there. They don't come pre programmed. 
I find it interesting that your grandchildren are being raised by "loving parents who are teaching them to be respectful". A puppy needs the same. I also find it interesting that you seem focused on only the parts of the breed description that apply to you. That is the same slippery slope that created a division so huge that the lines are unrecognizable as one breed. It is the same one that has so badly jeopardized a wonderful breed. This is a working breed that needs to be bold and intelligent, brave and unflinching. While in a mature dog these qualities are desirable in a puppy they are ****. All litters are going to produce a variety of personalities, but it is beginning to sound like what you want is a seriously watered down version. 
I totally agree that you should have sent the pup back but I am struggling to figure out why you want a GSD.


----------



## Caroline5

Sabis mom said:


> But it takes a dedicated loving owner to get there. They don't come pre programmed.
> I find it interesting that your grandchildren are being raised by "loving parents who are teaching them to be respectful". A puppy needs the same. I also find it interesting that you seem focused on only the parts of the breed description that apply to you. That is the same slippery slope that created a division so huge that the lines are unrecognizable as one breed. It is the same one that has so badly jeopardized a wonderful breed. This is a working breed that needs to be bold and intelligent, brave and unflinching. While in a mature dog these qualities are desirable in a puppy they are ****. All litters are going to produce a variety of personalities, but it is beginning to sound like what you want is a seriously watered down version.
> I totally agree that you should have sent the pup back but I am struggling to figure out why you want a GSD.


Actually those are things that apply to others, who I am responsible for. If it had been just me, and I did not have to worry about the safety of other smaller members of my family I would have persevered and kept working with her. But I felt that this was a situation that could go wrong. I do want a dog to be bold, intelligent, brave and unflinching. I do want a dog that will protect my daughter when she goes out for walks or when she is home alone, but I know that a dog does not have to be alpha or have very high prey drive in order to be that way. 
The SV translation says about temperament. 
Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


----------



## Breaker's mom

_Character
Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
Compatibility
Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.

_If only they came with a manual on how to get there.  But, I guess that is a big part of what this forum is all about.


----------



## Sabis mom

Caroline5 said:


> Actually those are things that apply to others, who I am responsible for. If it had been just me, and I did not have to worry about the safety of other smaller members of my family I would have persevered and kept working with her. But I felt that this was a situation that could go wrong. I do want a dog to be bold, intelligent, brave and unflinching. I do want a dog that will protect my daughter when she goes out for walks or when she is home alone, but I know that a dog does not have to be alpha or have very high prey drive in order to be that way.
> The SV translation says about temperament.
> Character
> Secure and self-confident, robust, natural, attentive, very resistant physically and psychically.
> Compatibility
> Good and secure social behaviour, gets along very well with humans and animals in the family environment after corresponding socialisation.


You keep quoting that. And it changes nothing. You also keep talking about being alpha. That theory does not hold water. Leaders are born not made and the true "alpha" rules quietly. I stand by what I said. 
When my children were young I taught them that pets were for life. Once they are here they stay and we make it work. Bud mowed down a few kids over the years. The kids now adults don't remember that. But came for his last supper and brought the baby. They played and laughed and took pictures. And cried. 
He was a jerk but he was our jerk. One of the family.
If your family was afraid perhaps that should be addressed before proceeding.


----------



## Jax08

Sabis mom said:


> But it takes a dedicated loving owner to get there. They don't come pre programmed.
> I find it interesting that your grandchildren are being raised by "loving parents who are teaching them to be respectful". A puppy needs the same. I also find it interesting that you seem focused on only the parts of the breed description that apply to you. That is the same slippery slope that created a division so huge that the lines are unrecognizable as one breed. It is the same one that has so badly jeopardized a wonderful breed. This is a working breed that needs to be bold and intelligent, brave and unflinching. While in a mature dog these qualities are desirable in a puppy they are ****. All litters are going to produce a variety of personalities, but it is beginning to sound like what you want is a seriously watered down version.
> I totally agree that you should have sent the pup back but I am struggling to figure out why you want a GSD.





Sabis mom said:


> You keep quoting that. And it changes nothing. You also keep talking about being alpha. That theory does not hold water. Leaders are born not made and the true "alpha" rules quietly. I stand by what I said.
> When my children were young I taught them that pets were for life. Once they are here they stay and we make it work. Bud mowed down a few kids over the years. The kids now adults don't remember that. But came for his last supper and brought the baby. They played and laughed and took pictures. And cried.
> He was a jerk but he was our jerk. One of the family.
> If your family was afraid perhaps that should be addressed before proceeding.



:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## selzer

As a breeder, I wish people would stop spouting this nonsense about pets being for life.

Half the people who tell everyone else this is how they should be will dump their dog at the nearest pound when the going gets rough. 

But really, it is no good for dogs to be kept in a home where they are unwanted or where the owner feels over-matched. When people find that they have made a mistake, or the animal really isn't fitting in, they shouldn't compound the problem because of some ridiculous notion that the commitment is lifelong no matter what. 

I am not suggesting people should get a pup in the spring and dump it when the snow flies, because they can get another in the spring. People shouldn't dump a dog to go on vacation, or because they are getting a new couch or rug. On the other hand, these people should probably dump the dog. The dog will then possibly have the opportunity of having a home with humans that are not emotionally bankrupt.

But one does not have to be emotionally bankrupt to make the decision to rehome a dog or send it back to its breeder. There are many life circumstances where it may become necessary. It can be made out of love for the animal, or out of responsibility for the family. 

If one is open to some creative solutions, or closed to rehoming, they can generally figure out a way to manage a dog safely. But it does not mean they will not come to resent the dog. And, another home might be a much more suitable home for the type of dog it is. By not rehoming, you are essentially preventing the dog from reaching its potential and having the kind of people that would be best for it. 

I don't care how good you are, there is no way to know at 8 weeks of age exactly who this pup will be 7 months, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years. You can have a better than average guess. Only some of it is nature and some is nurture. One can improve drives, hone drives, suppress drives. A weak pup, with careful socialization and management can become a good companion. A strong pup with weak leadership can get out of hand. The breeder marks personality on a pup for about a month, give or take, and the personality of prospective owner by a couple of e-mails, phone calls, and maybe a personal interview -- 2-4 hours in total, and humans are much more complex. Mistakes are going to happen, even when there is no blatant deception involved.

It takes a mature person to recognize that a match is not right, and when attempts to improve the relationship fail, to do the right thing for everyone involved. We, none of us were there in this situation. If the OP was worried for her grand children's safety, then how much more irresponsible it would be for one of those children to carry scars on their body and a negative opinion of our breed through life. 



Sabis mom said:


> You keep quoting that. And it changes nothing. You also keep talking about being alpha. That theory does not hold water. Leaders are born not made and the true "alpha" rules quietly. I stand by what I said.
> When my children were young I taught them that pets were for life. Once they are here they stay and we make it work. Bud mowed down a few kids over the years. The kids now adults don't remember that. But came for his last supper and brought the baby. They played and laughed and took pictures. And cried.
> He was a jerk but he was our jerk. One of the family.
> If your family was afraid perhaps that should be addressed before proceeding.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> I'm asking because Aria was my first gsd in nearly 30 years and even though I had trained quite a few dogs and put obedience titles on them, this was my first dog in a very long time, plus my first dog with high drive. I do not have the experience to safely train a dog with Aria's temperament.
> Our oldest grandson just turned 3 and from there they are 16 months, 7 months and 3 weeks. That is only from 2 daughters. So with 4 more kids who have not has kids, you know there will be lots of grandkids. So you know that we need to have a safe dog. I felt I could not take the chance with Aria to hopefully "grow out of it".


 Not a "criticism" here just an observation. You are most certainly not the first that has been stunned and taken aback by a "GSD!" And surprising enough ... that seems to happen quite a bit to "Bully" owners???

I had more than ten years of experiance with American Band Dawgs/ APBT/Boxers and Boxers and my first WL GSD??? No big deal ...yesss ...not so much! Just a big furry dow with a pointy face ... that ... was the extent of my research and I got schooled!!! 

Bullies don't tend to "hide" issues out the box ... what you see is what you got! I like that and I can deal. But you know that, is not what my first OS WL GSD did ... and I did not "know" he was "out of spec" either???

Nope ...he must have thought?? Well ... this guy is pretty good so you know I'll just bide my time and wait?? So for seven months as far as I could see ... no issues?? Cats were never an issue and neither was my Boxer ((female) ... nope after seven months of zero issues (that I saw???) One day at a full on 116 lbs he decided it was a time for a regime change in pack order ... "Game On!!??? 

And again he expertly "exploited" my "gaps" in understanding/experience, he never, had an issue with cats out the box ... they do get on is nerves (he is kinda growly with them at times but they don't care and he is like whatever.) And he never targeted my "Boxer" ( he knew ) that in this household ... that ... would be a "Poor Choice!" and I can guarantee ... that had he gone after my girl ... "he'd" not be here today, because he would have been my first last and only GSD! :surprise:

He targeted my Band Dawg .. who pretty much "never cared!" Kinda like hey ... this crap is my thing ...not sure what "Dads issue is?? Zero "behavioural issues to be fixed with him despite ... "five attacks!!!" 

And again I am not pointing fingers at you! I only look at "issues" and give my assessment as a "non pro" as to what I see.
As I see it those who have dealt with "extremely" difficult dogs and have learned to deal have some things in common?? One is we usually don't have ... kids and don't have a lot of drop in's??? That is pretty much an ideal situation for dealing with a difficult dog/puppy. 

Next ... would be people that have "Cats" first and then decide to get a dog! If the dog has a cat issue in a cat first household and a "GSD/Dog" does anything untoward as regards the cats ... that dog is outa there!! Saw that happen here a couple years ago ... it was an all out effort to keep that dog in that home! 

The op ..."Cowboy" ... something, I do belive?? Posted a clip of his dog in a "Box/Crate" and the cat outside and he was freaked out at what he saw??? I saw "no problem" myself but he was uncomfortable. The dog went back to rescue despite our best efforts. And then there is the ... "my other dogs were not like this???" That one caught me by surprise??? :surprise:

Any one of those factors can be too much... "people,cats and the my other dogs thing??" I don't think you stated the dog had any "people issues" but most likely you felt that if he was like this with the cats ... what about people??? 

For me it was the "my other dogs thing" that caught me off guard first?? By the time the "H/A" thing showed up a few weeks late ... I much better understood "that his dog my GSD was "clearly not" like my other dogs. With that simple understanding on my part ... I could "now" deal and we got it done. 

Lesson I learned and carry forward to this day ... "every dog/puppy" (which you did say is different) and now .. I don't care what "others say" about a dog ... I do what I do and I let the dog "Show me who he is." Works out fine. 











...


----------



## SuperG

selzer said:


> It takes a mature person to recognize that a match is not right, and when attempts to improve the relationship fail, to do the right thing for everyone involved..


Is there a general age of the pup when this recognition of a bad match is obvious? Is there a general procedure you think owners should go through before making this determination? "Emotionally bankrupt" is a relative term as well....I've seen a few people get rid of their pups for what I considered the most ridiculous reasons.....basically the pup didn't come out of the box....plug and play.

"some ridiculous notion that the commitment is lifelong no matter what.".....the "no matter what" gives some credibility to your thought...but on an overview....I certainly subscribe to the commitment being lifelong...it sets the stage from the very first day that pup arrives into one's life. A life of management would be too much for many....some do manage....others will not....I guess it all depends on the individual.


SuperG


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> It takes a mature person to recognize that a match is not right, and when attempts to improve the relationship fail, to do the right thing for everyone involved. We, none of us were there in this situation. If the OP was worried for her grand children's safety, then how much more irresponsible it would be for one of those children to carry scars on their body and a negative opinion of our breed through life.


And ... there you go! I think I added to your point here that's what I was going for at anyrate.


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> As a breeder, I wish people would stop spouting this nonsense about pets being for life.
> 
> Half the people who tell everyone else this is how they should be will dump their dog at the nearest pound when the going gets rough.
> 
> But really, it is no good for dogs to be kept in a home where they are unwanted or where the owner feels over-matched. When people find that they have made a mistake, or the animal really isn't fitting in, they shouldn't compound the problem because of some ridiculous notion that the commitment is lifelong no matter what.
> 
> I am not suggesting people should get a pup in the spring and dump it when the snow flies, because they can get another in the spring. People shouldn't dump a dog to go on vacation, or because they are getting a new couch or rug. On the other hand, these people should probably dump the dog. The dog will then possibly have the opportunity of having a home with humans that are not emotionally bankrupt.
> 
> But one does not have to be emotionally bankrupt to make the decision to rehome a dog or send it back to its breeder. There are many life circumstances where it may become necessary. It can be made out of love for the animal, or out of responsibility for the family.
> 
> If one is open to some creative solutions, or closed to rehoming, they can generally figure out a way to manage a dog safely. But it does not mean they will not come to resent the dog. And, another home might be a much more suitable home for the type of dog it is. By not rehoming, you are essentially preventing the dog from reaching its potential and having the kind of people that would be best for it.
> 
> I don't care how good you are, there is no way to know at 8 weeks of age exactly who this pup will be 7 months, 12 months, 18 months, 2 years. You can have a better than average guess. Only some of it is nature and some is nurture. One can improve drives, hone drives, suppress drives. A weak pup, with careful socialization and management can become a good companion. A strong pup with weak leadership can get out of hand. The breeder marks personality on a pup for about a month, give or take, and the personality of prospective owner by a couple of e-mails, phone calls, and maybe a personal interview -- 2-4 hours in total, and humans are much more complex. Mistakes are going to happen, even when there is no blatant deception involved.
> 
> It takes a mature person to recognize that a match is not right, and when attempts to improve the relationship fail, to do the right thing for everyone involved. We, none of us were there in this situation. If the OP was worried for her grand children's safety, then how much more irresponsible it would be for one of those children to carry scars on their body and a negative opinion of our breed through life.


As a breeder i would expect that you would turn a person away who obviously was getting in over their head.
I am glad this pup went back but nothing described seems over the top to me and if a young woman and a grown man were afraid of a 4 month old pup well maybe this family should rethink.
Certainly in some cases pups are a bad match for sure in some cases pups need to be returned. Teaching children that pets are disposable is crap.
To ditch one and be actively looking for another seems wrong. And if a person honestly made a mistake they should own it and not blame the dog for being exactly what it was bred to be.


----------



## Caroline5

Jax08 said:


> Sabis mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> But it takes a dedicated loving owner to get there. They don't come pre programmed.
> I find it interesting that your grandchildren are being raised by "loving parents who are teaching them to be respectful". A puppy needs the same. I also find it interesting that you seem focused on only the parts of the breed description that apply to you. That is the same slippery slope that created a division so huge that the lines are unrecognizable as one breed. It is the same one that has so badly jeopardized a wonderful breed. This is a working breed that needs to be bold and intelligent, brave and unflinching. While in a mature dog these qualities are desirable in a puppy they are ****. All litters are going to produce a variety of personalities, but it is beginning to sound like what you want is a seriously watered down version.
> I totally agree that you should have sent the pup back but I am struggling to figure out why you want a GSD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sabis mom said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep quoting that. And it changes nothing. You also keep talking about being alpha. That theory does not hold water. Leaders are born not made and the true "alpha" rules quietly. I stand by what I said.
> When my children were young I taught them that pets were for life. Once they are here they stay and we make it work. Bud mowed down a few kids over the years. The kids now adults don't remember that. But came for his last supper and brought the baby. They played and laughed and took pictures. And cried.
> He was a jerk but he was our jerk. One of the family.
> If your family was afraid perhaps that should be addressed before proceeding.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Four years ago I bought a beautiful lipizzan mare who was trained to second level in dressage. She had been used as a lesson horse and out on trails. She was my dream horse. But lipizzans pick their people and can be challenging if they don't chose you. 
I kept her for 2 years and gave it my best shot. In the meantime she had kicked me, knocked down a stall wall and nearly kicked the barn owner in the head. She balked and refused to go forward and i could feel her getting ready to go up I was riding her because she didn't want to leave the property and go out on a trail. I finally sold her to a woman who she connected with and she is doing great. But by the time I sold her my self esteem was in the toilet and I never wanted to ride again .
Before I bought her I was leasing another lipizzan mare from a friend. This mare had been bounced from home to home through no fault of her own. She really found herself while she was with me. I never had any of the issues with her that I had with the one I bought. We had a great relationship. 

After I sold the challenging mare I bought another horse for my daughter. She starting loosing interest and I decided to take riding lessons again. Very soon he became my hearthorse. He adores me, takes care of me and respects me. When he has balked at not wanting to do something I have told him to cut it out and he immediately complys. No kicking, none of the issues I had with the other one. Why? Because he respects me. Same with my mini. When I got him he was a spoiled brat. He bit, dragged people, and was a challenge for the farrier. But I worked with him and I very quickly earned his respect. After that I was able to train him. Others who had seen him before I got him could not believe he was the same horse. Now everyone loves him. 
I worked with Aria right from the start and was unable to earn her respect. I have never experienced that with any of my dogs, neither my gsd or my dachsies who naturally have high prey drive and are stubborn. She is back with the breeder and doing so much better.
Had I thrown in the towel after I sold my lipizzan mare I would never have known the joy of my boy. Was it because she was a lipizzan, no because the other mare never behaved that way and she wasn't like that with her previous owner. 
I've had a bad experience with one gsd who didn't respect me and who behaved in a way that did not fit into my home and family. Does that mean that I will have problems with the next? Does that mean I should never own a gsl again? No, that was one dog, not the entire breed.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

You said your breeder was sending the dog to Germany for Schutzhund training...code for fake title . Ill explain why on another thread.


The dogs haven't changed any nor was this thing king kong. Simply a puppy that needed some discipline. Modern training has removed peoples ability to discipline a dog effectively and thus suppress undesired behaviour. There is also some strange myth perpetrated all over the internet including on here that you shouldn't punish a puppy.


In the future if you have an annoying puppy (most of them are), find a trainer that knows what they are doing. It should take no more then a week or two of consistent training to remove the undesired behaviours. Not a dog whisperer, a behaviorist, force free ideologue, agility instructor, or any other nonsense. Just a good old fashioned obedience trainer like Don Sullivan that will make you a nice functionally obedient pet.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sounds like you need a horse trainer too.. That Aussie guy looks like he has a clue, Clinton Anderson buy his DVDs .


----------



## Caroline5

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sounds like you need a horse trainer too.. That Aussie guy looks like he has a clue, Clinton Anderson buy his DVDs .


Why do you say that?


----------



## Caroline5

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You said your breeder was sending the dog to Germany for Schutzhund training...code for fake title . Ill explain why on another thread.
> 
> 
> The dogs haven't changed any nor was this thing king kong. Simply a puppy that needed some discipline. Modern training has removed peoples ability to discipline a dog effectively and thus suppress undesired behaviour. There is also some strange myth perpetrated all over the internet including on here that you shouldn't punish a puppy.
> 
> 
> In the future if you have an annoying puppy (most of them are), find a trainer that knows what they are doing. It should take no more then a week or two of consistent training to remove the undesired behaviours. Not a dog whisperer, a behaviorist, force free ideologue, agility instructor, or any other nonsense. Just a good old fashioned obedience trainer like Don Sullivan that will make you a nice functionally obedient pet.


Oh, you mean like Pat Brown-John or Les Flores?


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> As a breeder i would expect that you would turn a person away who obviously was getting in over their head.
> I am glad this pup went back but nothing described seems over the top to me and if a young woman and a grown man were afraid of a 4 month old pup well maybe this family should rethink.
> Certainly in some cases pups are a bad match for sure in some cases pups need to be returned. Teaching children that pets are disposable is crap.
> To ditch one and be actively looking for another seems wrong. And if a person honestly made a mistake they should own it and not blame the dog for being exactly what it was bred to be.


As a breeder, I have to play God sometimes. How often do we get slammed for judging people? What about rescues being slammed for not selling to people because they don't have a fence, or have an intact pet? But we do. We turn people down flat. Sometimes we are wrong. Often times these people go out and buy from a pet store or the next newspaper ad they see. It does no good to turn them down, but we don't want our puppy landing there. 

On the flip side, when you are selling GSL puppies, most of them can be great companions. With a GSL puppy, you need to play tug, play with a flirt pole, work the drive from little on up. They do not generally come out of the whelping box little fireballs. So if they are going to be pets, you don't encourage those drives, you don't discourage, but the people you are turning down are those that you think won't provide a good home. Because usually the puppies will adapt. And other than the obvious people, that tell you they taught their dog to stay out of the trash by taping rotting meat to their muzzle for three days, or that they have 13 dogs and they all run together, you have to really question why you don't want this dog to go to this person.

The guy who wanted to buy a GSD for his older teenage son, and the son wanted a dachshund or beagle. Yep, that was a mistake. Got the pup back.

The family whose twelve year old son seemed to be teasing the adult dogs, where my gut was saying, Bear NOT Dolly... Dolly had a lot more drive. But they liked the red (where Bear was tan), and there was really no reason not to sell them Dolly. Got her back. 

And Greta, whose owners gave all the wrong answers, dog parks, doggy day care, training, and on and on, but after a solid year and learning a lot about the breed (I thought). At least learning what I wanted to hear. I talked to this woman regularly on the phone for a year. Finally, I sold her a puppy. Got her back. Everything I suggested they not do, they did. Whatever. I am glad they drove her all the way back to me. They were not bad people, just over their heads with the breed. How can you be over your head with a GSL? But, you can be, especially if you have never owned a shepherd before.

The chances of it working out fine go way up if the people have owned a shepherd before. And that's why I think this pup is probably over the top. The OP has experience with the breed. That is pretty much all you need to manage a GSL pup that has a decent temperament. 

GSL puppies don't need a job, they do not need to run up and down mountains before you leave for work to be sane, they do not need NILIF from the moment you get home, they do not need prong collars and e-collars to be effectively trained or managed, nor muzzles at the vet, they may go through a bitey stage, but nothing like what I hear on this board. They do not come out of the box, trained and perfect, but a little training, a little socialization, a little management, and they're great companions -- that's the bell-curve of them. Yes, there are outliers. Some have higher energy and drives, some are more independent, some stronger in personality, For me, all of them have still been gentle and easy to manage, even if they are higher in energy, drives, or personality.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Not a "criticism" here just an observation. You are most certainly not the first that has been stunned and taken aback by a "GSD!" And surprising enough ... that seems to happen quite a bit to "Bully" owners???
> 
> I had more than ten years of experiance with American Band Dawgs/ APBT/Boxers and Boxers and my first WL GSD??? No big deal ...yesss ...not so much! Just a big furry dow with a pointy face ... that ... was the extent of my research and I got schooled!!!
> 
> Bullies don't tend to "hide" issues out the box ... what you see is what you got! I like that and I can deal. But you know that, is not what my first OS WL GSD did ... and I did not "know" he was "out of spec" either???
> 
> Nope ...he must have thought?? Well ... this guy is pretty good so you know I'll just bide my time and wait?? So for seven months as far as I could see ... no issues?? Cats were never an issue and neither was my Boxer ((female) ... nope after seven months of zero issues (that I saw???) One day at a full on 116 lbs he decided it was a time for a regime change in pack order ... "Game On!!???
> 
> And again he expertly "exploited" my "gaps" in understanding/experience, he never, had an issue with cats out the box ... they do get on is nerves (he is kinda growly with them at times but they don't care and he is like whatever.) And he never targeted my "Boxer" ( he knew ) that in this household ... that ... would be a "Poor Choice!" and I can guarantee ... that had he gone after my girl ... "he'd" not be here today, because he would have been my first last and only GSD! :surprise:
> 
> He targeted my Band Dawg .. who pretty much "never cared!" Kinda like hey ... this crap is my thing ...not sure what "Dads issue is?? Zero "behavioural issues to be fixed with him despite ... "five attacks!!!"
> 
> And again I am not pointing fingers at you! I only look at "issues" and give my assessment as a "non pro" as to what I see.
> As I see it those who have dealt with "extremely" difficult dogs and have learned to deal have some things in common?? One is we usually don't have ... kids and don't have a lot of drop in's??? That is pretty much an ideal situation for dealing with a difficult dog/puppy.
> 
> Next ... would be people that have "Cats" first and then decide to get a dog! If the dog has a cat issue in a cat first household and a "GSD/Dog" does anything untoward as regards the cats ... that dog is outa there!! Saw that happen here a couple years ago ... it was an all out effort to keep that dog in that home!
> 
> The op ..."Cowboy" ... something, I do belive?? Posted a clip of his dog in a "Box/Crate" and the cat outside and he was freaked out at what he saw??? I saw "no problem" myself but he was uncomfortable. The dog went back to rescue despite our best efforts. And then there is the ... "my other dogs were not like this???" That one caught me by surprise??? :surprise:
> 
> Any one of those factors can be too much... "people,cats and the my other dogs thing??" I don't think you stated the dog had any "people issues" but most likely you felt that if he was like this with the cats ... what about people???
> 
> For me it was the "my other dogs thing" that caught me off guard first?? By the time the "H/A" thing showed up a few weeks late ... I much better understood "that his dog my GSD was "clearly not" like my other dogs. With that simple understanding on my part ... I could "now" deal and we got it done.
> 
> Lesson I learned and carry forward to this day ... "every dog/puppy" (which you did say is different) and now .. I don't care what "others say" about a dog ... I do what I do and I let the dog "Show me who he is." Works out fine.
> 
> 
> ...


In regards to "people issues" are you referring to Aria or my old guy Arro?

If Aria, she would often get hyper around people but not in an overly aggressive way. There was that incident where she lunged at the group of kids waiting for the bus but all in all she wasn't to bad. We were working on sitting in order to be petted but to often people would encourage her to be mouthy and I would need to ask them to stop.

If Arro, he was a gentleman and could go anywhere. One time he was at a school for children with learning disabilities and while my mom was chatting with someone a child walked up from behind and bit Arro in the back. Arro flew around snarling because he had been bitten and it hurt, saw it was a child and stopped in his tracks. He never even touched the child.


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> As a breeder, I have to play God sometimes. How often do we get slammed for judging people? What about rescues being slammed for not selling to people because they don't have a fence, or have an intact pet? But we do. We turn people down flat. Sometimes we are wrong. Often times these people go out and buy from a pet store or the next newspaper ad they see. It does no good to turn them down, but we don't want our puppy landing there.
> 
> On the flip side, when you are selling GSL puppies, most of them can be great companions. With a GSL puppy, you need to play tug, play with a flirt pole, work the drive from little on up. They do not generally come out of the whelping box little fireballs. So if they are going to be pets, you don't encourage those drives, you don't discourage, but the people you are turning down are those that you think won't provide a good home. Because usually the puppies will adapt. And other than the obvious people, that tell you they taught their dog to stay out of the trash by taping rotting meat to their muzzle for three days, or that they have 13 dogs and they all run together, you have to really question why you don't want this dog to go to this person.
> 
> The guy who wanted to buy a GSD for his older teenage son, and the son wanted a dachshund or beagle. Yep, that was a mistake. Got the pup back.
> 
> The family whose twelve year old son seemed to be teasing the adult dogs, where my gut was saying, Bear NOT Dolly... Dolly had a lot more drive. But they liked the red (where Bear was tan), and there was really no reason not to sell them Dolly. Got her back.
> 
> And Greta, whose owners gave all the wrong answers, dog parks, doggy day care, training, and on and on, but after a solid year and learning a lot about the breed (I thought). At least learning what I wanted to hear. I talked to this woman regularly on the phone for a year. Finally, I sold her a puppy. Got her back. Everything I suggested they not do, they did. Whatever. I am glad they drove her all the way back to me. They were not bad people, just over their heads with the breed. How can you be over your head with a GSL? But, you can be, especially if you have never owned a shepherd before.
> 
> The chances of it working out fine go way up if the people have owned a shepherd before. And that's why I think this pup is probably over the top. The OP has experience with the breed. That is pretty much all you need to manage a GSL pup that has a decent temperament.
> 
> GSL puppies don't need a job, they do not need to run up and down mountains before you leave for work to be sane, they do not need NILIF from the moment you get home, they do not need prong collars and e-collars to be effectively trained or managed, nor muzzles at the vet, they may go through a bitey stage, but nothing like what I hear on this board. They do not come out of the box, trained and perfect, but a little training, a little socialization, a little management, and they're great companions -- that's the bell-curve of them. Yes, there are outliers. Some have higher energy and drives, some are more independent, some stronger in personality, For me, all of them have still been gentle and easy to manage, even if they are higher in energy, drives, or personality.


NILIF?
Lol, are you saying that I didn't need to take her for long walks up the hill every morning at 6 a.m.?


----------



## cloudpump

:hammer:


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> But really, it is no good for dogs to be kept in a home where they are unwanted or where the owner feels overmatched. When people find that they have made a mistake, or the animal really isn't fitting in, they shouldn't compound the problem *because of some ridiculous notion that the commitment is lifelong no matter what.
> *


My reply has nothing to do with the "OP" to be clear, but you know I have been here awhile and since I've been here ... this has never been stated ... that I've seen??? 

But I "was" there!" I was a foster when I got "Rocky" he just happened to be a "OS WL GSD" I was not looking for a "GSD" but you know ... I guess because of the "Wobblers" he touched my heart???

When he first "Wobbled" onto lawn ... it just broke my heart! I actually cried! Man I thought ... there is a dog ... that will "never find a home!!" Little did I know ...he already had???

But it was not an easy road! Apparently ... he was not as "disabled as he appeared???" Anything inside of "five feet" was apparently "raw meat???"

On one occasion we all my dogs went for an outing ... unbeknownst to us there were baby birds nesting in the field??

On board was my American Band Dawg who moved like a "Dump Truck" and my Queen of Speed (White Boxer Struddel) and of course "Rocky" ... well ...guest who caught and killed a "Baby Bird" on the fly??" Yep "Rocky" I was heartbroken as well as stunned ...had I known the birds were out there we not have gone! 

Five "pack fights" and I went to the ER for freaking stitches!!! And then H/A issues??? I did not sign on for this crap!! I was ticked off and freaking done!!!

Return his butt to rescue and call it a freakin day! But ...you know this ... *some ridiculous notion that the commitment is lifelong no matter what. *

That ... is me! And I'm pretty sure that had he been now sent back with apparently full on H/A issues to rescue at his size and with his disability ... anyway ...he'd have been PTS cause you know ... why bother we have lots of others dogs without these issues??

I was hurt (literally as well as emotionally) confused (I'd done the same things I'd always did ...with my other dogs, and freaking angry!! 

But also "guilty" Rocky had none of these "present issues" when I got him 7 months prior??? If it was indeed something I'd done wrong ... then I had "robbed" him off his opportunity to find a more "competent" owner??? 

Everyone walked on eggshells Marilyn and at the time our room mate because AFAKT ... three of the males in this home were insane! Gunther would get attacked by Rocky and I was within seconds on "Rocky's" butt!!! 

ANd then following the last attack due to unrelated issues Gunther passed ... so I was never given the opportunity to solve that ... so "Rocky got his top dog status by default!!

And then following that came the H/A thing??? Are you freaking kidding me!!! I was done but ... "Marilyn" although ... "Rocky's behaviour scared the crap out of her ... understood me!

And she said "if you can't let it go "... then Rocky has to go!!!" It was an actual physical effort (eight years ago now I guess??) but I took a deep breath and "let it go!!" 

And now ... I no longer considered the H/A thing an issue ... I considered it an "opportunity for payback!!" 


"Freaking dog is not going to bite anyone under my watch!" And ... we got it done! That accomplished ... I still figured he was just going to be my cross to bear for the next 10 years or so (bully guy and I've not had much kuck getting dogs past 10 years.  )

And then most likely as you know ... but for those who don't ... this happened. :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

So I guess I just wanted you to know while owners like me ... may not be that common ... we are out there. So I don't know add more question to your list?? 

And I want to say ... I admire folks that can be real "Breeders!" I ... could not do it myself ... pretty much "No one" is good enough!!

Before I knew anything about what real "Breeders" meant I could have been one?? My baby girl Struddell was not fixed till she was 4 or 5 and that was mainly because of my fear of "ACE" ... Boxer thing. And frankly my understanding that if she had puppies ... "I would have been emotionally unable to sell them!!" 

A man goy's to know his limitations.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Caroline5 said:


> Oh, you mean like Pat Brown-John or Les Flores?



Don't know them. If they couldn't fix your puppy problems...you have your answer.


----------



## Caroline5

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Don't know them. If they couldn't fix your puppy problems...you have your answer.[/QUOTE
> I never said that they couldn't. Had they taken her, which they would have loved to, they would have been able to train her and had a great dog. But a) I could not afford the amount of money it would have cost for private training to get her to where she would have been "safe" and b) they both would have loved to have bought her but the breeder had first right of refusal and wanted her back.


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## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> NILIF?
> Lol, are you saying that I didn't need to take her for long walks up the hill every morning at 6 a.m.?


NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free -- Leadership model for people who have a dog that is driving them to drink. I think basically, it teaches people to be consistent. But it has a lot to do with consequences for bad behavior, not rewarding bad behavior with positive attention, demanding the dog earn privileges -- no dogs on furniture, dog sits before you give him his food, and so on. Once people manage the techniques by doing it all the time, the dogs know what to expect, and relax in an environment they understand. Oftentimes, folks learn the behaviors so well that when the next pup comes home, they fall right in line using the same format. It is not bad, just not necessary for every dog. 

No, you shouldn't have to wear the dog out before you go to work in the morning. But, I suppose if the dog is going to spend prolonged time alone in a crate where they cannot move at all, (some people do this) maybe running up and down mountains in the morning does make sense. 

Some dogs are flawed. Some get put in the wrong situation for their temperament. If a person has a good amount of experience with the breed, then I tend to believe that if they think the dog is flawed, it probably is. If someone has little to no experience with the breed, I tend to think the other way. At the end of the day, this will not serve for all cases. Having a dog evaluated by a trainer/behaviorist who is very experienced with the various lines of GSDs would be a better method of determining if it is you are the dog. But the dog's back with the breeder, and that's not a possibility.


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## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> In regards to "people issues" are you referring to Aria or my old guy Arro?
> 
> If Aria, she would often get hyper around people but not in an overly aggressive way. There was that incident where she lunged at the group of kids waiting for the bus but all in all she wasn't to bad. We were working on sitting in order to be petted but to often people would encourage her to be mouthy and I would need to ask them to stop.
> 
> If Arro, he was a gentleman and could go anywhere. One time he was at a school for children with learning disabilities and while my mom was chatting with someone a child walked up from behind and bit Arro in the back. Arro flew around snarling because he had been bitten and it hurt, saw it was a child and stopped in his tracks. He never even touched the child.


No ... I was referencing my dog. 

But i will say ...if a dog is working on issues ... I much prefer a "Down" as opposed to a sit. 

But I was referencing my dog and his people issues! The first time I became aware "I had a problem" was when company came over the first time. He happen to be in "Place" and he greeted company with a "Cold Hard Stare"and a "low growl???" It Seemed to me pretty clear he meant business. :surprise:

Being a "Boxer guy: ... this was new to me ... I was stunned but ... good enough now I know ... he remained in place and I allowed no one to touch him! Worked out fine for me ... and (no touch) did cause some hurt butts ... but you know ... safety first! He bites no one was all I cared about!!!

But ... I don't have kids friends no friends dropping in unexpectedly at odd hours so ... no big deal. And ... I take folks that have Wl GSD's that say there dogs can handle that kinda stuff at there word! But my experiance says ... most folks can't get it done. So I won't recommend them ... I thought your dogs was a WL. I was surprised it was not??? 

But you know if pressed for a kid friendly dog ... I would recommend a ... "Boxer" with qualifications.


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## Caroline5

selzer said:


> NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free -- Leadership model for people who have a dog that is driving them to drink. I think basically, it teaches people to be consistent. But it has a lot to do with consequences for bad behavior, not rewarding bad behavior with positive attention, demanding the dog earn privileges -- no dogs on furniture, dog sits before you give him his food, and so on. Once people manage the techniques by doing it all the time, the dogs know what to expect, and relax in an environment they understand. Oftentimes, folks learn the behaviors so well that when the next pup comes home, they fall right in line using the same format. It is not bad, just not necessary for every dog.
> 
> No, you shouldn't have to wear the dog out before you go to work in the morning. But, I suppose if the dog is going to spend prolonged time alone in a crate where they cannot move at all, (some people do this) maybe running up and down mountains in the morning does make sense.
> 
> Some dogs are flawed. Some get put in the wrong situation for their temperament. If a person has a good amount of experience with the breed, then I tend to believe that if they think the dog is flawed, it probably is. If someone has little to no experience with the breed, I tend to think the other way. At the end of the day, this will not serve for all cases. Having a dog evaluated by a trainer/behaviorist who is very experienced with the various lines of GSDs would be a better method of determining if it is you are the dog. But the dog's back with the breeder, and that's not a possibility.


Actually she was not in her crate all day, because I was home all day. I often worked outside so she was always out in the yard with me and we have a fairly good sized back yard. When we were inside and I was unable to watch her she was left in the hallway with the babygate up and toys to play with. 
As for being evaluated, She was evaluated by 4 professional trainers and a longtime gsd breeder who all had experience with training dogs for Schutzhund, some for the military and one for police work. They all said pretty much the same thing as what I have told you. As one of the professional trainers put it, I had asked for a Mercedes sedan and got a Lamborghini instead. Each one of these trainers had at least 30 years experience in their fields, one in Germany with the U.S army, one trained dogs for the marines, one has trained schutzhund for 30 years and one for police depts. They all came highly recommended to me.


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## melissajancie

selzer said:


> NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free -- Leadership model for people who have a dog that is driving them to drink. I think basically, it teaches people to be consistent. But it has a lot to do with consequences for bad behavior, not rewarding bad behavior with positive attention, demanding the dog earn privileges -- no dogs on furniture, dog sits before you give him his food, and so on. Once people manage the techniques by doing it all the time, the dogs know what to expect, and relax in an environment they understand. Oftentimes, folks learn the behaviors so well that when the next pup comes home, they fall right in line using the same format. It is not bad, just not necessary for every dog.



Now if only parents would do the same with their kids we wouldn't have so many entitled misbehaving brats running around. Ok - I had better be more specific or I am going to have a ton of people come down on me for that one.


No.....I am not saying your kid needs to sleep on the floor or your kid can't be on the couch.


What I am saying is that set boundaries and be consistent as that is what kids understand and life becomes less complicated for them. Quit passing out participation trophies. Quit the "Only say positive things because otherwise they won't have any self esteem" To never, ever, say anything negative to your kid or even tell them "No!" is hogwash!


You see most of this stuff is commons sense but that is lacking these days.


So NILIF makes total sense to me! Be consistent with your GSD. Make the rules and stick to them. You can't let a puppy on the couch one day and the next day yell at them for being on the couch! It is no wonder there are neurotic dogs around - most of it is because of the dog's owners - not the dogs themselves. I have always said that dogs take after their owners and I say that based on experience and seeing owners with their dogs and how the dogs behave or misbehave. Praise them and reward them when they have done something right. Let them know when they are doing something wrong. But most of all be consistent.


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## selzer

I find the more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to punish. I must be training my body constantly to let the dogs read what I want. I have management pretty much down, know what to expect, and am confident in handling, so my dogs are confident with me. 

I agree that most of the time the problem lies in the human end of the leash. There are dogs that are outside of the norms though, and rather have people struggle just to reach managing, the dog could be excelling in another situation, and the human can be enjoying a different dog that is more their speed. There oughtn't be any shame in this. 

At some point, I just say, "but for the grace of God, this could be me." Is it so much better to keep a dog, come Heck or high water, until the dog does something really bad and the question becomes euthanize or not?

Sometimes the option isn't there. The rescue will put the dog down. The dog has a bite history, the shelter will not take him. We on this site are so set on choosing a breeder that will take their puppies back, but if someone utilizes this option, then how terrible! Whatever. It's the beauty of the internet. We can tell people what they should do, and no one never need know what we have done, less we blab.


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## Caroline5

selzer said:


> I find the more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to punish. I must be training my body constantly to let the dogs read what I want. I have management pretty much down, know what to expect, and am confident in handling, so my dogs are confident with me.
> 
> I agree that most of the time the problem lies in the human end of the leash. There are dogs that are outside of the norms though, and rather have people struggle just to reach managing, the dog could be excelling in another situation, and the human can be enjoying a different dog that is more their speed. There oughtn't be any shame in this.
> 
> At some point, I just say, "but for the grace of God, this could be me." Is it so much better to keep a dog, come Heck or high water, until the dog does something really bad and the question becomes euthanize or not?
> 
> Sometimes the option isn't there. The rescue will put the dog down. The dog has a bite history, the shelter will not take him. We on this site are so set on choosing a breeder that will take their puppies back, but if someone utilizes this option, then how terrible! Whatever. It's the beauty of the internet. We can tell people what they should do, and no one never need know what we have done, less we blab.


I agree with you. I was not qualified to deal with a dog like her. I knew this and had told the breeder I did not want a dog with high prey drive and who was alpha. Apparently she did not appear to be like that at the breeders. 
The last thing I wanted was for someone to get hurt and I also did not want her to be put down. 
Yes I have put obedience titles on dogs and raised lots of puppies, but her temperament was beyond my level of experience. I'm not ashamed of that. I also know that now with being much older and more mature I will be a much better dog trainer than I was when I was 19 and my dog got her first obedience title..


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> GSL puppies don't need a job, they do not need to run up and down mountains before you leave for work to be sane, they do not need NILIF from the moment you get home, they do not need prong collars and e-collars to be effectively trained or managed, nor muzzles at the vet, they may go through a bitey stage, but nothing like what I hear on this board. They do not come out of the box, trained and perfect, but a little training, a little socialization, a little management, and they're great companions -- that's the bell-curve of them. Yes, there are outliers. Some have higher energy and drives, some are more independent, some stronger in personality, For me, all of them have still been gentle and easy to manage, even if they are higher in energy, drives, or personality.


This part is well said.


----------



## Caroline5

melissajancie said:


> Now if only parents would do the same with their kids we wouldn't have so many entitled misbehaving brats running around. Ok - I had better be more specific or I am going to have a ton of people come down on me for that one.
> 
> 
> No.....I am not saying your kid needs to sleep on the floor or your kid can't be on the couch.
> 
> 
> What I am saying is that set boundaries and be consistent as that is what kids understand and life becomes less complicated for them. Quit passing out participation trophies. Quit the "Only say positive things because otherwise they won't have any self esteem" To never, ever, say anything negative to your kid or even tell them "No!" is hogwash!
> 
> 
> You see most of this stuff is commons sense but that is lacking these days.
> 
> 
> So NILIF makes total sense to me! Be consistent with your GSD. Make the rules and stick to them. You can't let a puppy on the couch one day and the next day yell at them for being on the couch! It is no wonder there are neurotic dogs around - most of it is because of the dog's owners - not the dogs themselves. I have always said that dogs take after their owners and I say that based on experience and seeing owners with their dogs and how the dogs behave or misbehave. Praise them and reward them when they have done something right. Let them know when they are doing something wrong. But most of all be consistent.


I hope you weren't referring to my comment about Aria jumping on the couch, because trust me, that was not allowed and something that I corrected every time she did, but she continued to keep doing it.


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## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> I find the more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to punish. I must be training my body constantly to let the dogs read what I want. I have management pretty much down, know what to expect, and am confident in handling, so my dogs are confident with me.
> 
> I agree that most of the time the problem lies in the human end of the leash. There are dogs that are outside of the norms though, and rather have people struggle just to reach managing, the dog could be excelling in another situation, and the human can be enjoying a different dog that is more their speed. There oughtn't be any shame in this.
> 
> At some point, I just say, "but for the grace of God, this could be me." Is it so much better to keep a dog, come Heck or high water, until the dog does something really bad and the question becomes euthanize or not?
> 
> Sometimes the option isn't there. The rescue will put the dog down. The dog has a bite history, the shelter will not take him. We on this site are so set on choosing a breeder that will take their puppies back, but if someone utilizes this option, then how terrible! Whatever. It's the beauty of the internet. We can tell people what they should do, and no one never need know what we have done, less we blab.


I do agree with you to a point. And a bad fit is a bad fit. I just feel that people get so hung up on things that they can't see the forest for the trees.
At the end of the day a dog is a dog and a puppy and a baby are remarkably similar. If you raise a puppy with fair and consistent rules keeping sight of it's individual self and being mindful of it's spirit you will be successful. If you insist that it must be what your vision is and it will abide by method A you are setting yourself and the dog up for failure.
I love the working side of the breed. I ended up with Shadow. At some point I had to let go of the preconceived notions and embrace the dog that stood before me. And what a gift she is. If I had continued to force her I would have missed the treasure I had been given.


----------



## melissajancie

Caroline5 said:


> I hope you weren't referring to my comment about Aria jumping on the couch, because trust me, that was not allowed and something that I corrected every time she did, but she continued to keep doing it.


Absolutely NOT!


I was just saying how I loved NILIF and that this should be applied to kids these days also instead of giving them everything they want and then wonder why they turn out to be entitled brats  Had nothing at all to do with you and Aria.

Want to buy them a car for graduating high school - that is your choice - but hey maybe they could be doing some chores around the house or get a part time job to pay for the gas and insurance. Maybe they could go volunteer somewhere - now that is a concept most of them don't know these days.

So using this concept with dogs makes sense to me. Doesn't mean they have to work for every single treat or play time but it is nice to reward them for being obedient and going through a training session really nice. Take a treat as an opportunity to teach them something.


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## SuperG

Caroline5 said:


> my comment about Aria jumping on the couch, because trust me, that was not allowed and something that I corrected every time she did, but she continued to keep doing it.


This just sounds odd coming from a person who has trained numerous dogs...........


SuperG


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## Caroline5

Sabis mom said:


> I do agree with you to a point. And a bad fit is a bad fit. I just feel that people get so hung up on things that they can't see the forest for the trees.
> At the end of the day a dog is a dog and a puppy and a baby are remarkably similar. If you raise a puppy with fair and consistent rules keeping sight of it's individual self and being mindful of it's spirit you will be successful. If you insist that it must be what your vision is and it will abide by method A you are setting yourself and the dog up for failure.
> I love the working side of the breed. I ended up with Shadow. At some point I had to let go of the preconceived notions and embrace the dog that stood before me. And what a gift she is. If I had continued to force her I would have missed the treasure I had been given.


To each their own. Unlike you I do not have the luxury of being able to have several dogs at one time. I had a "vision" of what kind of dog I needed and wanted and the dog I got only met that vision in looks. Every other aspect of her was just wrong for what we need in our family. We need a dog who is a member of our family, who will not need to be crated or kenneled whenever company comes over. I need a dog who I can take to the barn with me and I not have to worry about her chasing the horses and getting kicked or killed. I need a dog that I can take on trail rides and not have to worry about her running off in high prey drive mode after another animal. I need a dog who I can take on early morning walks at the ocean and not have to worry about her leash getting all tangled around my legs while I am picking up seashells or taking off after an eagle or attacking a baby seal on the beach. I want a dog who I can take out in public and her not be biting at people as they walk past. Sure perhaps after several years of consistent training she may have become somewhat like that dog, but there are no 100% guarantees. There are many wonderful gsd like what I am looking for, why should I have to spend the next 13 years with a dog who does not bring the joy, security and companionship that many of those would? By then I will be (horrors) nearly 70 and may not want to start fresh with another dog.


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## Caroline5

SuperG said:


> This just sounds odd coming from a person who has trained numerous dogs...........
> 
> 
> SuperG


Why is that odd?


----------



## Caroline5

SuperG said:


> This just sounds odd coming from a person who has trained numerous dogs...........
> 
> 
> SuperG


I am going to assume that since you are in the Great White North you are up in Canada. If you google Susanne Olver you will find this post about her. Who knows, you may even know her or heard of her. She is much loved and highly respected in the dog community.
SUSANNE OLVER and "MAYA" * * * *OTCH INDIRA V.STANGLBERG C.G.N.*
placed 5th in the Top Obedience Award for German Shepherd Dogs in Canada (CKC Award Top 10)

Susanne Olver who will be 90 in two weeks, is my mother. Maya is a Pakros von D'Ulmenthal daughter. With all of my mother's 40 years of training from which she just retired 2 years ago, after Maya won high in trial at the Mid Canada Dog show in Utility, she could see that I was doing nothing wrong, that I was firm and consistent, but that Aria has a very strong and stubborn will and did not respect me no matter what I did or tried.


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## Jax08

this thread has so run it's course.

You returned the puppy. End of story. I see you talk about being "alpha" and "correcting" and continuously posting the standard for temperament but nothing about what you did to create a bond and actually teach the puppy what alternatives to the bad behavior is acceptable. You hated this puppy. You were scared of her and she brought you no joy. You 100% made the right choice to return the puppy. Some people here are thinking because the puppy wasn't right for you and some people here are thinking it's because you weren't right for the puppy.

And really...it's all a moot point now anyways. Because you returned the puppy. So let it go already.


----------



## SuperG

To continue a correction or any protocol that doesn't yield the desired results over an extended period of time seems odd.....I must have assumed incorrectly regarding your earlier comment to me..." How many gsd have you trained ............"?.....I took that as a flexing of your training prowess muscles.....sorry, my mistake.

SuperG


----------



## Caroline5

Jax08 said:


> this thread has so run it's course.
> 
> You returned the puppy. End of story. I see you talk about being "alpha" and "correcting" and continuously posting the standard for temperament but nothing about what you did to create a bond and actually teach the puppy what alternatives to the bad behavior is acceptable. You hated this puppy. You were scared of her and she brought you no joy. You 100% made the right choice to return the puppy. Some people here are thinking because the puppy wasn't right for you and some people here are thinking it's because you weren't right for the puppy.
> 
> And really...it's all a moot point now anyways. Because you returned the puppy. So let it go already.


You want to know what I did with her? I got up every morning at about 5 and we went for a nice long walk together, after that we would play for about half an hour in the back yard. When it rained we played in puddles together because she loved to splash in the water. Whenever I ran errands she went with me, if I was able to I would take her into the store with me for socialization. I still have dog biscuits in my pockets that I would give to her whenever she met someone and for whenever she did something good. I took her by plane up to Canada with me to visit my mother for a week. I took her to the beach, I took her to the barn. 
I tried and tried to make it work. I spent money on private trainers in hopes that it would work. 
Hate her? I loved her very much and I still cry at her loss. You have no idea how much I miss her in spite of the challenges I had with her. Everywhere I look I see reminders of her, a chewed edge on a box, her crate is still in my truck, toys in my car. A dog bisquit or bit of dog hair under a bed.


----------



## Caroline5

SuperG said:


> To continue a correction or any protocol that doesn't yield the desired results over an extended period of time seems odd.....I must have assumed incorrectly regarding your earlier comment to me..." How many gsd have you trained ............"?.....I took that as a flexing of your training prowess muscles.....sorry, my mistake.
> 
> SuperG


Oh no, not at all. I vaguely remember making that comment but I don't remember in what context it was. Please refresh my memory.


----------



## Jax08

No. I don't want to know what you did for her. It no longer matters. That is my point. So let it GO!


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## Caroline5

Jax08 said:


> No. I don't want to know what you did for her. It no longer matters. That is my point. So let it GO!


Well let me tell you that it does matter. There are other people and there will be other people who have done all that they can do and have come to the point where they realize that there is nothing more that they can do. Others who love their dog in spite of the fact that it is not going to be a safe member of society if it remains with them. I want them to know that it is ok to admit that they have done all that they could do and that it is ok to let the dog go. Neither they nor the dog are failures if they chose to do that.


----------



## LuvShepherds

You have made your point. Before you ever started this thread, there were many of us here who think rehoming is sometimes the best option. What I see is you getting yourself upset over and over again over a decision that was done before you even posted. You did what was best for you. If you read this forum for a long time you will know that most of the time when someone has a a puppy they can't handle, there are solutions to fix it. I would much rather see someone try five or six things before giving up than saying, Oh, someone else gave a dog back, so I should, too. You will also see there have been times in the past year when a lot of members here have told someone to give up a dog, for all good reasons. It's not black or white one way or another. I keep reading this thread in case there is new information but it's become an exhausting slog. I doubt someone new will read over 250 posts to justify a decision. The longer this gets the less that is going to happen.


----------



## Sabis mom

Caroline5 said:


> To each their own. Unlike you I do not have the luxury of being able to have several dogs at one time. I had a "vision" of what kind of dog I needed and wanted and the dog I got only met that vision in looks. Every other aspect of her was just wrong for what we need in our family. We need a dog who is a member of our family, who will not need to be crated or kenneled whenever company comes over. I need a dog who I can take to the barn with me and I not have to worry about her chasing the horses and getting kicked or killed. I need a dog that I can take on trail rides and not have to worry about her running off in high prey drive mode after another animal. I need a dog who I can take on early morning walks at the ocean and not have to worry about her leash getting all tangled around my legs while I am picking up seashells or taking off after an eagle or attacking a baby seal on the beach. I want a dog who I can take out in public and her not be biting at people as they walk past. Sure perhaps after several years of consistent training she may have become somewhat like that dog, but there are no 100% guarantees. There are many wonderful gsd like what I am looking for, why should I have to spend the next 13 years with a dog who does not bring the joy, security and companionship that many of those would? By then I will be (horrors) nearly 70 and may not want to start fresh with another dog.


Sounds like a pretty nice life to me. I don't know what luxury you think I have but I am nearing 50 and working on a whole second career after 22 years of working on call 24/7 . My dogs are not a luxury they are part of my life. I work hard to provide for myself and them and you net your butt if I had the luxury of being able to spend my days strolling on the beach I wouldn't be gripping about a leash getting tangled. I live in a major city and actually have to exert myself to provide for my dogs. I titled OB dogs back in the day as well. No big thing. Sit stay come heel down. Basics now. Nothing more. CKC shows are a game of points anyway. 
Your posts have gotten progressively more whiney. You sent her back. Move on.


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## Caroline5

Sure you are right she is gone and there is nothing more I can do. But telling me what you perceive I did wrong is not helping others who are at the end of their ropes and have exhausted avenues that there is more that they can do. By saying I did things wrong you may be setting others up for someone being injured and a lawsuit. 
Owning a German Shepherd can be a huge liability if it is mismatched with the wrong person. Look at my mother with all her experience as a trainer. She once had a dog that was nearly as high maintenance as Aria. She knew this dog was beyond her many years of experience and sent her back. My mom is an excellent trainer and did all the right things. The dog was just not right for her and that is ok. 
So please don't keep saying I did things wrong, you words aren't affecting me, but they could have an affect on someone else who needs to know that it is ok to let go.


----------



## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> I agree with you. I was not qualified to deal with a dog like her. I knew this and had told the breeder I did not want a dog with high prey drive and who was alpha. Apparently she did not appear to be like that at the breeders.
> The last thing I wanted was for someone to get hurt and I also did not want her to be put down.
> Yes I have put obedience titles on dogs and raised lots of puppies, but her temperament was beyond my level of experience. I'm not ashamed of that. *I also know that now with being much older and more mature I will be a much better dog trainer than I was when I was 19 and my dog got her first obedience title..[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I don't think this is true. But I am not saying for you individually, just in general. The passing of years in and of themselves does not make us better trainers. In the past 20 years I have raised 33 puppies, all but one of which through the 7-9 month period, I had CujoII up to 10-12 weeks and got him back at 18 months. 1/3 I titled, 1/2 I put CGCs on. Some have been to classes and are just not tested yet. Some went to new homes at 1 or 2 years of age. And some I still have. Each puppy I train trains me. Each one, you have to figure out somewhat. They respond, but some respond better to different handling. Some are better at agility than obedience, and some better at obedience. I have the luxury of picking and choosing what to do with a dog depending on their strengths. Many of these dogs have been trained for multiple things. Joy for instance, went through star puppy twice, then basic obedience, then agility classes, then advanced obedience, conformation classes, CGC, and then was titled in Rally. Some of my youngsters have not been to classes at all, but I can take them out and manage them at home or outside the home with no problem.
> 
> Being more mature may make us more patient, more consistent, have reasonable expectations, and make us more dedicated to doing the work. But there certainly is not a 100% guaranty on that.
> 
> A pet person, even one who shows will raise maybe 5 or 6 dogs in their lifetime. And hopefully each of them will train the owner, and make the next puppy that much easier. But perhaps raising a puppy is more akin to childbirth in that we forget over 12-14 years how much of a pain in the butt our now heart dog was at that stage. And too many people raise up as a gold standard how a beloved companion acted when mature. To this no puppy can hit the mark, for the simple reason that humans cannot seem to tarnish the dead with truth about their life.
> 
> So telling someone who is on their third pup, and feels they are a master at training, he trains his dog daily, and goes to the club every weekend rain or shine, that he doesn't NEED a prong collar or e-collar to train the dog, well, they do not take it well. They will tell me to take my cookie and shove it where this board will take offense at. I tell them that I am not a fan of treats and use them only briefly when training puppies and the rest of the clan storms in with how wonderful treats are. LOL!
> 
> Having trained more dogs than a lot of people on here, from puppy on up, I find that the more experience I have the less need for punishment there is. I learned early on with a young bitch that was shutting down, that it was not stubbornness. That she wanted to please me, but I wasn't getting through to her, and that was on me. I was the human. I couldn't punish her for my failing. I changed my approach completely, and I trained her. I could look at anything and do it with her. She went into the obedience ring three times, and got three blue ribbons. She was my second dog, and maybe only Babs, maybe Heidi are as decorated as she was with titles.
> 
> How do we get people to be experienced enough to step back when something isn't working with a dog and try another approach, to step back when something is working with a dog and wonder if something else would work better? How do we get someone who feels they must show the dog who is boss to ensure that they will listen, to offer that up and build a relationship of trust with the dog.
> 
> I am not saying a no-nonsense approach with training collars and corrections doesn't work. Of course it does. In fact, if someone is consistent with that, it will work better than any other approach that does not include consistency. Dogs are creatures of habit, and if we are consistent, it doesn't matter if we tug/jerk their collar to make them understand that wasn't what they were supposed to do, or if say Eh, and set it up again. Dogs respond to and trust our consistency. They will work for the praise that comes from following a clear command that they know. When we learn what motivates THIS dog, than we can get that compliance without punishment regardless to what distractions are present.
> 
> Ah well, some of us with age become more patient, less demanding, more realistic with our expectations, more willing to look for the fault in ourselves, etc. And some of us with age become more set in our ways, and less likely to accept fault with what we know, with what had worked in the past.
> 
> And yes, the alpha stuff is bunk. Are there alpha dogs and bitches? Sure. Most of it relates to how the dog acts in a pack situation (to other dogs in and out of the pack) when he is owned by someone who has multiple dogs. The vast majority of dogs labeled alpha or dominant, have owners who are inconsistent and unclear in there leadership, management and training. Dogs can be hard or soft, more biddable, more independent, handler sensitive, but alpha with respect to humans? I don't buy it. The original work/study was done on captive wolf packs, and neither shows how wolves behave naturally, nor how dogs behave in a family situation. It just gives an idea on how captive wolves in packs might respond to each other. The true alpha does not pick fights, rarely fights at all. It is her body language that other dogs accept and fall into place with. We are not pack members. Certainly we belong, but we aren't dogs. Dogs do not see us as dogs. They seem smarter and seem to have more respect than some humans who view their dogs as furry kids.
> 
> But I am wandering now, and will reach the wordy limit if I don't watch out.


----------



## Galathiel

I think also that the opposite can be true. Some people become LESS patient, less realistic, etc as they get older.. partially because we are tired!  People have children when they're young for a reason! 

I'm not sure that people have said you made the wrong decision .. for you. That doesn't make it the right decision (or wrong decision) for any other struggling puppy owner that reads the thread .. if they can manage to make it through the entire thread.


----------



## Caroline5

Sabis mom said:


> Sounds like a pretty nice life to me. I don't know what luxury you think I have but I am nearing 50 and working on a whole second career after 22 years of working on call 24/7 . My dogs are not a luxury they are part of my life. I work hard to provide for myself and them and you net your butt if I had the luxury of being able to spend my days strolling on the beach I wouldn't be gripping about a leash getting tangled. I live in a major city and actually have to exert myself to provide for my dogs. I titled OB dogs back in the day as well. No big thing. Sit stay come heel down. Basics now. Nothing more. CKC shows are a game of points anyway.
> Your posts have gotten progressively more whiney. You sent her back. Move on.


Oh my goodness, do you really think that I do nothing but walk on the beach all day? Lol that is funny. I wish that were true. No, I am 56 and I run a home based business that requires me to do hard manual labor and powertools. I cut tree branches and turn them into pet supplies for small animals. It keeps me going pretty much all day long. Going to the beach is something that I should do more often but am not able to because of work and other responsibilities. After many years of very hard struggles, traumas, losses of children and challenges I was finally able to get a dog again and it was supposed to be a wonderful reward for all that I had been through, but sadly it wasn't. But in spite of all of that, my life is full, busy but happy and will be even better when I have found the right dog for me.


----------



## selzer

I think that there is part of you that is questioning your decision. Why worry about what a bunch of strangers say on an anonymous internet site? Why keep justifying your position. 

You had reasons to do what you did. And you made the decision that seemed right at the time with the information you had. Let it go at that. At least you didn't kill your dog, as I did. My dog, first dog, first GSD, working line/pet line cross. I was convinced he was dominant, independent, aggressive, stubborn, alpha. I thought crates were cruel and babygated him in my kitchen when I went to work. Every day he took everything not nailed down and put it in a pile on my kitchen floor, added a few turds of his own, and some fluid, and chewed half of it up, and every day I would come home from work and lose my mind. 

But he was this dream dog that I wanted all my life. Frodo. He grew. And it didn't get much better. When I tried to walk him, he dragged me around. He wouldn't be house trained. He would growl at little children. Finally, I put him out on a chain with a dog house, and fed and watered him outside. Every so many months his chain would break, and one time, he got run over by a truck. It broke his leg in many places. The vet wanted to put a rod in it, but that would have cost $2000 twenty years ago. She told me to crate him. Take him out twice a day to relieve himself. It would heal. It did. But it was crooked. When he ran it flew out in an odd direction. And it pained him when it was cold and damp. He was 18 months old when that happened. As he got older, the pain bothered him more. He came back to live in the house, I crated him during the day and let him out when I got home, and his house manners did improve. But obedience training with his poor leg like that was out of the question.

I moved to my own place and got a female puppy, and that worked ok. Until, one day before work, Frodo would not let the younger bitch eat. I got mad and told him to kennel, he wouldn't. He was becoming more and more irritable. I grabbed him by the collar to make him obey. He grabbed me by the wrist, then I knew I couldn't back down, I grabbed him again and he bit me in the hand. Got three of my fingers bloody, but looking backwards, he could have done much worse. He was 7 years old. I did not have any resources at the time. Perhaps if I would have found this site, if I had internet access. Perhaps if... 

I figured he was an alpha, dominant dog, and was aggressive, too much of a liability with kids living next door. I took him to the vet and put him down. Twenty years later, I can say that I failed that dog. I made every mistake under the sun with him. I can say now that he was not socialized to children and when they stared into his eyes, the low rumbling was a warning. I can say that bite was done with much inhibition. I can say that from the get go, that dog would have never gotten that bad, if I knew then what I know now. There were other incidents. He had recently lunged at my sister when she made kissy noises to him. I figured he was not right. He was stubborn and not easy to train. But perhaps, I was inconsistent and impatient and unrealistic with what I expected from him. The dog taught me a lot. If there was one dog I could do over, it would have been him. 

But I can't. 

It isn't easy to give a dog back, to admit that the dog isn't suited to you. It is a question that only you can answer, whether you did the right thing. Others will tell you you did, and others will tell you you didn't. They don't matter. They don't know. They know what would have been right for them if they were in the situation you described. First, you couldn't have possibly described the whole of it. And secondly, what you describe, they have to perceive and that is rarely an accurate translation. It doesn't matter. We can beat ourselves up over questions like this, and at the end of the day it really doesn't help. Maybe if it makes us approach the next one differently, may be it was worth it. 

I hope there is meeting beyond this life, so I can tell Frodo how very sorry I am. 



Caroline5 said:


> Sure you are right she is gone and there is nothing more I can do. But telling me what you perceive I did wrong is not helping others who are at the end of their ropes and have exhausted avenues that there is more that they can do. By saying I did things wrong you may be setting others up for someone being injured and a lawsuit.
> Owning a German Shepherd can be a huge liability if it is mismatched with the wrong person. Look at my mother with all her experience as a trainer. She once had a dog that was nearly as high maintenance as Aria. She knew this dog was beyond her many years of experience and sent her back. My mom is an excellent trainer and did all the right things. The dog was just not right for her and that is ok.
> So please don't keep saying I did things wrong, you words aren't affecting me, but they could have an affect on someone else who needs to know that it is ok to let go.


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> I think that there is part of you that is questioning your decision. Why worry about what a bunch of strangers say on an anonymous internet site? Why keep justifying your position.
> 
> You had reasons to do what you did. And you made the decision that seemed right at the time with the information you had. Let it go at that. At least you didn't kill your dog, as I did. My dog, first dog, first GSD, working line/pet line cross. I was convinced he was dominant, independent, aggressive, stubborn, alpha. I thought crates were cruel and babygated him in my kitchen when I went to work. Every day he took everything not nailed down and put it in a pile on my kitchen floor, added a few turds of his own, and some fluid, and chewed half of it up, and every day I would come home from work and lose my mind.
> 
> But he was this dream dog that I wanted all my life. Frodo. He grew. And it didn't get much better. When I tried to walk him, he dragged me around. He wouldn't be house trained. He would growl at little children. Finally, I put him out on a chain with a dog house, and fed and watered him outside. Every so many months his chain would break, and one time, he got run over by a truck. It broke his leg in many places. The vet wanted to put a rod in it, but that would have cost $2000 twenty years ago. She told me to crate him. Take him out twice a day to relieve himself. It would heal. It did. But it was crooked. When he ran it flew out in an odd direction. And it pained him when it was cold and damp. He was 18 months old when that happened. As he got older, the pain bothered him more. He came back to live in the house, I crated him during the day and let him out when I got home, and his house manners did improve. But obedience training with his poor leg like that was out of the question.
> 
> I moved to my own place and got a female puppy, and that worked ok. Until, one day before work, Frodo would not let the younger bitch eat. I got mad and told him to kennel, he wouldn't. He was becoming more and more irritable. I grabbed him by the collar to make him obey. He grabbed me by the wrist, then I knew I couldn't back down, I grabbed him again and he bit me in the hand. Got three of my fingers bloody, but looking backwards, he could have done much worse. He was 7 years old. I did not have any resources at the time. Perhaps if I would have found this site, if I had internet access. Perhaps if...
> 
> I figured he was an alpha, dominant dog, and was aggressive, too much of a liability with kids living next door. I took him to the vet and put him down. Twenty years later, I can say that I failed that dog. I made every mistake under the sun with him. I can say now that he was not socialized to children and when they stared into his eyes, the low rumbling was a warning. I can say that bite was done with much inhibition. I can say that from the get go, that dog would have never gotten that bad, if I knew then what I know now. There were other incidents. He had recently lunged at my sister when she made kissy noises to him. I figured he was not right. He was stubborn and not easy to train. But perhaps, I was inconsistent and impatient and unrealistic with what I expected from him. The dog taught me a lot. If there was one dog I could do over, it would have been him.
> 
> But I can't.
> 
> It isn't easy to give a dog back, to admit that the dog isn't suited to you. It is a question that only you can answer, whether you did the right thing. Others will tell you you did, and others will tell you you didn't. They don't matter. They don't know. They know what would have been right for them if they were in the situation you described. First, you couldn't have possibly described the whole of it. And secondly, what you describe, they have to perceive and that is rarely an accurate translation. It doesn't matter. We can beat ourselves up over questions like this, and at the end of the day it really doesn't help. Maybe if it makes us approach the next one differently, may be it was worth it.
> 
> I hope there is meeting beyond this life, so I can tell Frodo how very sorry I am.
> 
> 
> 
> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you are right she is gone and there is nothing more I can do. But telling me what you perceive I did wrong is not helping others who are at the end of their ropes and have exhausted avenues that there is more that they can do. By saying I did things wrong you may be setting others up for someone being injured and a lawsuit.
> Owning a German Shepherd can be a huge liability if it is mismatched with the wrong person. Look at my mother with all her experience as a trainer. She once had a dog that was nearly as high maintenance as Aria. She knew this dog was beyond her many years of experience and sent her back. My mom is an excellent trainer and did all the right things. The dog was just not right for her and that is ok.
> So please don't keep saying I did things wrong, you words aren't affecting me, but they could have an affect on someone else who needs to know that it is ok to let go.
Click to expand...


I'm so sorry about your experience with Frodo and I know he has forgiven you and wants you to be able to forgive yourself. I can promise you that one day you will be able to throw your arms around his neck. 
I'm not questioning my decision, I know I made the right choice. I'm sad, but I know she would have never been the right dog for our family. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. I'm sad I had to go through this, but I'm not ashamed.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Why is that odd?


It's not odd to me. 

If one has "dog training experiance" then they do have the skills required to "cope!" But on the other hand ... if one has dog training experiance ... they are not necessarily "expecting to need to??"

"Bully" owners seem to be the one's most often "stunned" by there first "WL GSD" (which yeah yours was not but she seemed to act like one??)

A couple of years ago a "Bully owner" showed up here, she had a top level female WL GSD, (young dog) she had acquired and when she posted ... the thread was titled ... "My dog is scheduled to be PTS at 4:30 today" I saw it and I was like "oh well a done deal" so whatever ...

But you know ... I got a "pm" from a friend ... at the time anyway .. (I seemed to have ticked them off somehow as of late??) but I digress. The dog was Resource guarding her ... and everything and everybody was a threat??? The dog was just generally out of control! Even the dog's breeder chimed in to offer assistance!! 

She had well trained bullies and that experiance with those dogs just did not seem to be of much help for her?? This dog was just different???

Seemed pretty hopeless but whatever I chimed in. Long story short the scheduled appointment was put off?? I'd but of course suggested "Sit on the Dog and Place" pretty much something I always do as a matter of course now but if you have a dog with "issues" they are a necessity!

At any rate she canceled the scheduled "PTS" appointment and "apparently" gave (the above a shot among other stuff.) To my surprise she posted a few months later ... the dog was still there and she posted a photo of her "problem GSD doing "Place" in the living room ... to my astonishment in the photo were her three other dogs a small something or another ... but "apparently" she also owned ... two freaking "Cane Corso's!!!" And now everyone in the photo was in "Place!" I was uh ... stunned! :surprise:

The commonality among the three of us is we can all train dogs. But you know with "apparently" some "GSD's" it does not matter?? What they seem to be able to do with "uncanny accuracy" ... "is pen point" exactly where are weak points are and fully exploit them!! :surprise:

Once they have "already achieved" that first step ... they have us rocked??? Now ... we are behind the dog and we need to get in front?? And at that point ... it's no longer about just training the dog?? I was "not expecting this crap??? Is now a factor and our individual choices were now dictated by our "lifestyles??" There is no "Right our wrong" there???

It's now about what's best for our families and hopefully what's best the dog. You made your choice we made ours ... different circumstances! Again ... you don't need to defend your choice ... that particular puppy did not work for you! But you did get her back to a safe place and she is happy! Bottomline ... that's what you do if you care! Job well done! 

I'm merely doing what I can to explain ... why that happened and I think "preconceived expectations" were a part of it???


----------



## cdwoodcox

If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> I think that there is part of you that is questioning your decision. Why worry about what a bunch of strangers say on an anonymous internet site? Why keep justifying your position.
> 
> You had reasons to do what you did. And you made the decision that seemed right at the time with the information you had. Let it go at that. At least you didn't kill your dog, as I did. My dog, first dog, first GSD, working line/pet line cross. I was convinced he was dominant, independent, aggressive, stubborn, alpha. I thought crates were cruel and babygated him in my kitchen when I went to work. Every day he took everything not nailed down and put it in a pile on my kitchen floor, added a few turds of his own, and some fluid, and chewed half of it up, and every day I would come home from work and lose my mind.
> 
> But he was this dream dog that I wanted all my life. Frodo. He grew. And it didn't get much better. When I tried to walk him, he dragged me around. He wouldn't be house trained. He would growl at little children. Finally, I put him out on a chain with a dog house, and fed and watered him outside. Every so many months his chain would break, and one time, he got run over by a truck. It broke his leg in many places. The vet wanted to put a rod in it, but that would have cost $2000 twenty years ago. She told me to crate him. Take him out twice a day to relieve himself. It would heal. It did. But it was crooked. When he ran it flew out in an odd direction. And it pained him when it was cold and damp. He was 18 months old when that happened. As he got older, the pain bothered him more. He came back to live in the house, I crated him during the day and let him out when I got home, and his house manners did improve. But obedience training with his poor leg like that was out of the question.
> 
> I moved to my own place and got a female puppy, and that worked ok. Until, one day before work, Frodo would not let the younger bitch eat. I got mad and told him to kennel, he wouldn't. He was becoming more and more irritable. I grabbed him by the collar to make him obey. He grabbed me by the wrist, then I knew I couldn't back down, I grabbed him again and he bit me in the hand. Got three of my fingers bloody, but looking backwards, he could have done much worse. He was 7 years old. I did not have any resources at the time. Perhaps if I would have found this site, if I had internet access. Perhaps if...
> 
> I figured he was an alpha, dominant dog, and was aggressive, too much of a liability with kids living next door. I took him to the vet and put him down. Twenty years later, I can say that I failed that dog. I made every mistake under the sun with him. I can say now that he was not socialized to children and when they stared into his eyes, the low rumbling was a warning. I can say that bite was done with much inhibition. I can say that from the get go, that dog would have never gotten that bad, if I knew then what I know now. There were other incidents. He had recently lunged at my sister when she made kissy noises to him. I figured he was not right. He was stubborn and not easy to train. But perhaps, I was inconsistent and impatient and unrealistic with what I expected from him. The dog taught me a lot. If there was one dog I could do over, it would have been him.
> 
> But I can't.
> 
> It isn't easy to give a dog back, to admit that the dog isn't suited to you. It is a question that only you can answer, whether you did the right thing. Others will tell you you did, and others will tell you you didn't. They don't matter. They don't know. They know what would have been right for them if they were in the situation you described. First, you couldn't have possibly described the whole of it. And secondly, what you describe, they have to perceive and that is rarely an accurate translation. It doesn't matter. We can beat ourselves up over questions like this, and at the end of the day it really doesn't help. Maybe if it makes us approach the next one differently, may be it was worth it.
> 
> I hope there is meeting beyond this life, so I can tell Frodo how very sorry I am.


Aww man ... I'd not heard before either ... I'm so sorry. 

But know ... (some) people can also learn from the mistakes of others!!! Heck ... I was "astonished" to hear from a member that actually got a "WL GSD" becasue of my stories!  

Kinda like ... "OK" I won't do that crap kinda thing. Most likely ... way back in the day ... had I not been like this. Sorry I just gotta.










Gunther would not have been attacked five freaking times ... I'd have not gotten those stitches and I'd less of an "Ass" more of the time?? Don't know but more than likely ... someone would have said ... aww ...why don't you "Crate the Dog??" 

Thanks for sharing ... sorry it ended badly.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you. I was not qualified to deal with a dog like her. I knew this and had told the breeder I did not want a dog with high prey drive and who was alpha. Apparently she did not appear to be like that at the breeders.
> The last thing I wanted was for someone to get hurt and I also did not want her to be put down.
> Yes I have put obedience titles on dogs and raised lots of puppies, but her temperament was beyond my level of experience. I'm not ashamed of that. *I also know that now with being much older and more mature I will be a much better dog trainer than I was when I was 19 and my dog got her first obedience title..[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I don't think this is true. But I am not saying for you individually, just in general. The passing of years in and of themselves does not make us better trainers. In the past 20 years I have raised 33 puppies, all but one of which through the 7-9 month period, I had CujoII up to 10-12 weeks and got him back at 18 months. 1/3 I titled, 1/2 I put CGCs on. Some have been to classes and are just not tested yet. Some went to new homes at 1 or 2 years of age. And some I still have. Each puppy I train trains me. Each one, you have to figure out somewhat. They respond, but some respond better to different handling. Some are better at agility than obedience, and some better at obedience. I have the luxury of picking and choosing what to do with a dog depending on their strengths. Many of these dogs have been trained for multiple things. Joy for instance, went through star puppy twice, then basic obedience, then agility classes, then advanced obedience, conformation classes, CGC, and then was titled in Rally. Some of my youngsters have not been to classes at all, but I can take them out and manage them at home or outside the home with no problem.
> 
> Being more mature may make us more patient, more consistent, have reasonable expectations, and make us more dedicated to doing the work. But there certainly is not a 100% guaranty on that.
> 
> A pet person, even one who shows will raise maybe 5 or 6 dogs in their lifetime. And hopefully each of them will train the owner, and make the next puppy that much easier. But perhaps raising a puppy is more akin to childbirth in that we forget over 12-14 years how much of a pain in the butt our now heart dog was at that stage. And too many people raise up as a gold standard how a beloved companion acted when mature. To this no puppy can hit the mark, for the simple reason that humans cannot seem to tarnish the dead with truth about their life.
> 
> So telling someone who is on their third pup, and feels they are a master at training, he trains his dog daily, and goes to the club every weekend rain or shine, that he doesn't NEED a prong collar or e-collar to train the dog, well, they do not take it well. They will tell me to take my cookie and shove it where this board will take offense at. I tell them that I am not a fan of treats and use them only briefly when training puppies and the rest of the clan storms in with how wonderful treats are. LOL!
> 
> Having trained more dogs than a lot of people on here, from puppy on up, I find that the more experience I have the less need for punishment there is. I learned early on with a young bitch that was shutting down, that it was not stubbornness. That she wanted to please me, but I wasn't getting through to her, and that was on me. I was the human. I couldn't punish her for my failing. I changed my approach completely, and I trained her. I could look at anything and do it with her. She went into the obedience ring three times, and got three blue ribbons. She was my second dog, and maybe only Babs, maybe Heidi are as decorated as she was with titles.
> 
> How do we get people to be experienced enough to step back when something isn't working with a dog and try another approach, to step back when something is working with a dog and wonder if something else would work better? How do we get someone who feels they must show the dog who is boss to ensure that they will listen, to offer that up and build a relationship of trust with the dog.
> 
> I am not saying a no-nonsense approach with training collars and corrections doesn't work. Of course it does. In fact, if someone is consistent with that, it will work better than any other approach that does not include consistency. Dogs are creatures of habit, and if we are consistent, it doesn't matter if we tug/jerk their collar to make them understand that wasn't what they were supposed to do, or if say Eh, and set it up again. Dogs respond to and trust our consistency. They will work for the praise that comes from following a clear command that they know. When we learn what motivates THIS dog, than we can get that compliance without punishment regardless to what distractions are present.
> 
> Ah well, some of us with age become more patient, less demanding, more realistic with our expectations, more willing to look for the fault in ourselves, etc. And some of us with age become more set in our ways, and less likely to accept fault with what we know, with what had worked in the past.
> 
> And yes, the alpha stuff is bunk. Are there alpha dogs and bitches? Sure. Most of it relates to how the dog acts in a pack situation (to other dogs in and out of the pack) when he is owned by someone who has multiple dogs. The vast majority of dogs labeled alpha or dominant, have owners who are inconsistent and unclear in there leadership, management and training. Dogs can be hard or soft, more biddable, more independent, handler sensitive, but alpha with respect to humans? I don't buy it. The original work/study was done on captive wolf packs, and neither shows how wolves behave naturally, nor how dogs behave in a family situation. It just gives an idea on how captive wolves in packs might respond to each other. The true alpha does not pick fights, rarely fights at all. It is her body language that other dogs accept and fall into place with. We are not pack members. Certainly we belong, but we aren't dogs. Dogs do not see us as dogs. They seem smarter and seem to have more respect than some humans who view their dogs as furry kids.
> 
> But I am wandering now, and will reach the wordy limit if I don't watch out.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL as the saying goes ..."you go girl!!"
Click to expand...


----------



## Caroline5

cdwoodcox said:


> If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.


Does it matter? We have people sharing their experiences with their dogs.


----------



## Chip18

cdwoodcox said:


> If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.


LOL there is ... I've hit it! Somewhere in the 2000 to 5000 word range??? 

There is also a word limit for "PM's" I've hit that to! 

Some of us tend to like the hit "Redline" as it were.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Oh my goodness, do you really think that I do nothing but walk on the beach all day?


LOL ... well I'm in NV now so yeah what's a Beach?? I've heard of such things as fleas and mosquitoes also ... those most suck.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Caroline5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness, do you really think that I do nothing but walk on the beach all day?
> 
> 
> 
> LOL ... well I'm in NV now so yeah what's a Beach?? I've heard of such things as fleas and mosquitoes also ... those most suck.
Click to expand...

True but no venomous snakes, spiders or other creepy crawly things.


----------



## Jax08

cdwoodcox said:


> If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.


Yes, there is.


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... well I'm in NV now so yeah what's a Beach?? I've heard of such things as fleas and mosquitoes also ... those most suck.


Off topic alert....

I hope you are safe and dry from the flooding. I hear Dayton got hit pretty hard.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Caroline5 said:


> Does it matter? We have people sharing their experiences with their dogs.


Sometimes. Lol


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> Off topic alert....
> 
> I hope you are safe and dry from the flooding. I hear Dayton got hit pretty hard.


Tons of snow ... and last week I guess?? it rained for hours!!! We are fine but about a mile form us in the "Mark Twain" area the "Quickie Mart" had sandbagged the front door?

I asked how far up the water came and they said ... to those sand bags you just stepped over!! Mos of the snow is gone but it's still there. Rocky and I went out for our usually walk in the worst of it ... below freezing, rain snow and wind. I put him in his wheelchair, strictly speaking he does not need it becasue he can walk ... but because he can walk ... he tends to torque the thing!! The wheels will hop about 4 inches in the air from side to side!!!:surprise: 

He can go over some rugged terrain in that thing??? And yet ... he can go turtle on the sloped sidewalks?? I can't get him to understand ... go at right angles not a slant??? 

In the dark one night awhile ago, when he was just getting use to it ... he rolled down a five foot embankment!!! I had to get a flashlight to find him!!! I saw him and my heart stopped ... he never made a sound!!! I scramble down and at that point had to use the wheelchair to get him out of the ditch ... it was steep! We get out and I figure ... he will be like, yeah I'm done with this "Wheel Chair" crap??? But nope ... "Daddys got my back" he will find me and we will continue our walk! Tumbling down a freaking embankment in a "wheelchair" had zero impact on him??? Oh well it's what we do. 

Tahoe has been getting slamed for the last couple of weeks ... Hwy 50 got closed a couple of days ago and or chains required! Most likely ... the snow is not gone up there?? I think there is another storm front heading this week next week?? Are you guys dry where you are???


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there really is a per post word limit on this forum. It must be in the hundred thousands. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL there is ... I've hit it! Somewhere in the 2000 to 5000 word range???
> 
> There is also a word limit for "PM's" I've hit that to!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us tend to like the hit "Redline" as it were.
Click to expand...

What is the word limit and what does the redone mean?


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> True but no venomous snakes, spiders or other creepy crawly things.


Naw not quite "Black Widows" and "Rattlesnakes" are everywhere in "north America.

And we do have "Scorpions" in Dayton although in my 15 years here I have never seen any?? And mosquitoes are here but you have to go out of your way to find them! I have seen clouds of them on the banks of the Carson river ... but it's like a wall ... they stay over the water?? We stay on the trails about 20 feet away and no mosquitoes! But you have to actively drive or walk to find bodies of water out here. 

And pretty much absolutely no fleas ... no humidity here, to speak of so no ticks either! I have not seen either, since we left CA. So no more flea and tick control ... that was an unexpected bonus to our move here.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> What is the word limit and what does the redone mean?


Redone ... ie "Redline" ... max operating range of an engine! The red band on a Tachometer. 

This far and no further or you will break crap! Once somehow a while back I ... sneaked by it, 2000 or 2500 word limit in a post??? It was a 10,000 word post! But I posted it in the wrong thread! 

When I tried to move it ... nope not happening! That was pretty frustrating! 

So these days I just link to stuff I have already posted and just add what is pertinent to a member ... doing that keeps me safely below "redline" for the most part.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Naw not quite "Black Widows" and "Rattlesnakes" are everywhere in "north America.
> 
> And we do have "Scorpions" in Dayton although in my 15 years here I have never seen any?? And mosquitoes are here but you have to go out of your way to find them! I have seen clouds of them on the banks of the Carson river ... but it's like a wall ... they stay over the water?? We stay on the trails about 20 feet away and no mosquitoes! But you have to actively drive or walk to find bodies of water out here.
> 
> And pretty much absolutely no fleas ... no humidity here, to speak of so no ticks either! I have not seen either, since we left CA. So no more flea and tick control ... that was an unexpected bonus to our move here.


Ok, I am wrong about the black widows they are occasionally found here, but rattlesnakes are not native to my area as it is to humid.


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> Redone ... ie "Redline" ... max operating range of an engine! The red band on a Tachometer.
> 
> This far and no further or you will break crap! Once somehow a while back I ... sneaked by it, 2000 or 2500 word limit in a post??? It was a 10,000 word post! But I posted it in the wrong thread!
> 
> When I tried to move it ... nope not happening! That was pretty frustrating!
> 
> So these days I just link to stuff I have already posted and just add what is pertinent to a member ... doing that keeps me safely below "redline" for the most part.


How dare you argue with my cellphone, if it says redone then so it shall be!:wink2:


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> How dare you argue with my cellphone, if it says redone then so it shall be!:wink2:


You can do "this" on a phone??? I'm impressed! My bifocals quit working ... so I can either do "this" or "watch tv" ... I can't do both with the same pair of glasses! 

Getting old sucks but I suppose it's better than the alternative.


----------



## selzer

I thought it was 1000 words per post max. Guess I should check the rules. But I am not counting words. I've gotten truncated once or twice. Oops. I don't think it is a bannable offense, not like posting the u-tube of "I think my dog's a democrat."


----------



## Caroline5

Chip18 said:


> You can do "this" on a phone??? I'm impressed! My bifocals quit working ... so I can either do "this" or "watch tv" ... I can't do both with the same pair of glasses!
> 
> Getting old sucks but I suppose it's better than the alternative.


Lol, it is time for new ones but yes I am able to do "this" on my phone. Have you tried enlarging the font on your phone?


----------



## Caroline5

selzer said:


> I thought it was 1000 words per post max. Guess I should check the rules. But I am not counting words. I've gotten truncated once or twice. Oops. I don't think it is a bannable offense, not like posting the u-tube of "I think my dog's a democrat."


 Yikes, I would ban that too.


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Lol, it is time for new ones but yes I am able to do "this" on my phone. Have you tried enlarging the font on your phone?


Naw that won't work for me ... my phone is a 5.5 HTC and enlarging the font ... won't shrink my fat fingers.


----------



## cdwoodcox

selzer said:


> I don't think it is a bannable offense, not like posting the u-tube of "I think my dog's a democrat."


So then would working dogs be Republicans? 
Just wondering. LOL


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> Tons of snow ... and last week I guess?? it rained for hours!!! We are fine but about a mile form us in the "Mark Twain" area the "Quickie Mart" had sandbagged the front door?
> 
> I asked how far up the water came and they said ... to those sand bags you just stepped over!! Mos of the snow is gone but it's still there. Rocky and I went out for our usually walk in the worst of it ... below freezing, rain snow and wind. I put him in his wheelchair, strictly speaking he does not need it becasue he can walk ... but because he can walk ... he tends to torque the thing!! The wheels will hop about 4 inches in the air from side to side!!!:surprise:
> 
> He can go over some rugged terrain in that thing??? And yet ... he can go turtle on the sloped sidewalks?? I can't get him to understand ... go at right angles not a slant???
> 
> In the dark one night awhile ago, when he was just getting use to it ... he rolled down a five foot embankment!!! I had to get a flashlight to find him!!! I saw him and my heart stopped ... he never made a sound!!! I scramble down and at that point had to use the wheelchair to get him out of the ditch ... it was steep! We get out and I figure ... he will be like, yeah I'm done with this "Wheel Chair" crap??? But nope ... "Daddys got my back" he will find me and we will continue our walk! Tumbling down a freaking embankment in a "wheelchair" had zero impact on him??? Oh well it's what we do.
> 
> Tahoe has been getting slamed for the last couple of weeks ... Hwy 50 got closed a couple of days ago and or chains required! Most likely ... the snow is not gone up there?? I think there is another storm front heading this week next week?? Are you guys dry where you are???


We are safe and dry. Our roads are trashed, a snowy muddy mess. This area got hit pretty hard too but not as bad as Dayton. The road to Fernley got shut several times as water was flowing over the highway in places. Ft Churchill road flooded and Hodges opened the high road so people could get in and out. I heard there was water running down the cut where the new USA Parkway is coming through. 6 mile Canyon is washed out again so it will be the long way around for a lot of people. 

OMG I'm glad Rocky is ok! How scary for you! These guys are so brave and stoic. They are the hero's of the dog world. 

My crew for the most part is loving the snow and I'm loving my birthday present our new large fenced in area so I can hang out under the front porch and not get wet when we go out and play. 

We shall see what the end of this week brings and into next week. I hear there are more storms lining up. I was in the Walmart in Fernley yesterday and the shelves were really empty especially the paper products. I hope some of the trucks manage to get over the passes in the next few days before the new storm. Stay Dry!


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> Naw not quite "Black Widows" and "Rattlesnakes" are everywhere in "north America.
> 
> And we do have "Scorpions" in Dayton although in my 15 years here I have never seen any?? And mosquitoes are here but you have to go out of your way to find them! I have seen clouds of them on the banks of the Carson river ... but it's like a wall ... they stay over the water?? We stay on the trails about 20 feet away and no mosquitoes! But you have to actively drive or walk to find bodies of water out here.
> 
> And pretty much absolutely no fleas ... no humidity here, to speak of so no ticks either! I have not seen either, since we left CA. So no more flea and tick control ... that was an unexpected bonus to our move here.


I hate to break it to you but we do get ticks in the summer time. Not very often mind you but we can get them if you go out along the river. I pulled one off my dog a few years ago. Luckily it was only the one. LOL We also get plenty of scorpions. I got stung about 5-6 years ago. I lived in Arizona for freaking 30 years and never got stung move to Nevada and boom. *sigh* I don't have to go hunting for mosquitoes they come find me. The biting gnats are worse. Poor wiggles is allergic and her face swelled up like a balloon last spring. We had to get one of those bug repellent infused bandanna's for her. Nothing else worked.


----------



## Caroline5

shepherdmom said:


> Chip18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tons of snow ... and last week I guess?? it rained for hours!!! We are fine but about a mile form us in the "Mark Twain" area the "Quickie Mart" had sandbagged the front door?
> 
> I asked how far up the water came and they said ... to those sand bags you just stepped over!! Mos of the snow is gone but it's still there. Rocky and I went out for our usually walk in the worst of it ... below freezing, rain snow and wind. I put him in his wheelchair, strictly speaking he does not need it becasue he can walk ... but because he can walk ... he tends to torque the thing!! The wheels will hop about 4 inches in the air from side to side!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He can go over some rugged terrain in that thing??? And yet ... he can go turtle on the sloped sidewalks?? I can't get him to understand ... go at right angles not a slant???
> 
> In the dark one night awhile ago, when he was just getting use to it ... he rolled down a five foot embankment!!! I had to get a flashlight to find him!!! I saw him and my heart stopped ... he never made a sound!!! I scramble down and at that point had to use the wheelchair to get him out of the ditch ... it was steep! We get out and I figure ... he will be like, yeah I'm done with this "Wheel Chair" crap??? But nope ... "Daddys got my back" he will find me and we will continue our walk! Tumbling down a freaking embankment in a "wheelchair" had zero impact on him??? Oh well it's what we do.
> 
> Tahoe has been getting slamed for the last couple of weeks ... Hwy 50 got closed a couple of days ago and or chains required! Most likely ... the snow is not gone up there?? I think there is another storm front heading this week next week?? Are you guys dry where you are???
> 
> 
> 
> We are safe and dry. Our roads are trashed, a snowy muddy mess. This area got hit pretty hard too but not as bad as Dayton. The road to Fernley got shut several times as water was flowing over the highway in places. Ft Churchill road flooded and Hodges opened the high road so people could get in and out. I heard there was water running down the cut where the new USA Parkway is coming through. 6 mile Canyon is washed out again so it will be the long way around for a lot of people.
> 
> OMG I'm glad Rocky is ok! How scary for you! These guys are so brave and stoic. They are the hero's of the dog world.
> 
> My crew for the most part is loving the snow and I'm loving my birthday present our new large fenced in area so I can hang out under the front porch and not get wet when we go out and play.
> 
> We shall see what the end of this week brings and into next week. I hear there are more storms lining up. I was in the Walmart in Fernley yesterday and the shelves were really empty especially the paper products. I hope some of the trucks manage to get over the passes in the next few days before the new storm. Stay Dry!
Click to expand...

Wow, things sound bad for you guys. Hope they can get the roads cleared so that the trucks can get through. 
Situations like that just make me so very grateful that I'm married to Mr Preparedness. Before a storm hits all we have to do is fill our gas tanks and then we are like, bring her on.


----------



## selzer

Caroline5 said:


> Yikes, I would ban that too.


LOL!!! I about died laughing the first time I saw it, and I laughed even harder the second time.



cdwoodcox said:


> So then would working dogs be Republicans?
> Just wondering. LOL


There is a u-tube about that too. It was short, and I laughed about that too, but not as funny as the first one.


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> We are safe and dry. Our roads are trashed, a snowy muddy mess. This area got hit pretty hard too but not as bad as Dayton. The road to Fernley got shut several times as water was flowing over the highway in places. Ft Churchill road flooded and Hodges opened the high road so people could get in and out. I heard there was water running down the cut where the new USA Parkway is coming through. 6 mile Canyon is washed out again so it will be the long way around for a lot of people.
> 
> OMG I'm glad Rocky is ok! How scary for you! These guys are so brave and stoic. They are the hero's of the dog world.
> 
> My crew for the most part is loving the snow and I'm loving my birthday present our new large fenced in area so I can hang out under the front porch and not get wet when we go out and play.
> 
> We shall see what the end of this week brings and into next week. I hear there are more storms lining up. I was in the Walmart in Fernley yesterday and the shelves were really empty especially the paper products. I hope some of the trucks manage to get over the passes in the next few days before the new storm. Stay Dry!


Uh wow!!! Six mile canyon got closed??? :surprise:

My favorite stomping ground in my 951 (Porsche 944 Turbo) ... nice road. I didn't know about the flooding on the way to Fernley??? Snow is in the forecast for all most all of next week?? And I'll have to make three trips out there to work with a client ... should be interesting?? 

It's a "Walking Wheels" wheelchair ... I got it because I could use it for "Rocky" when Struddel was gone. In never worked for "Struddel" I think I waited to late to try and I pushed her to hard to make up for lost time. 

Instead of making "Struddell's" last months better ... I think it made them worse?? I waited to long ( I had no idea about a Wheel Chair for a dog???) And when I did get one ... she needed more of a "Victoria Principal" approach and I was a "William Kohler??" Not a good match. 

But I did get the "tool" right ... the "Walking Wheels" is scalable! Stru was 65lbs and Rocky is 112, bigger wheels and struts and I knew it work for also! So that part I did get right! But what I did not foresee was that a dog with zero use of hos rear legs is very much different that a dog that can walk??? 

So "Rocky tends to torque thing from side to side and does not really seem to notice or care that he is in it??? So he just does "stupid crap???" He go over cubs and large rocks with out issue and then out of the "Blue" he'll start sniffing and sniffing the ground and go right over??? 

And now ... I look for it and if I'm quick enough ... and I see it happening and I'm on it flash!! On one occasion I saw it happening?? I tried to stop him but couldn't he was gonna roll! He had one wheel about a foot in the air an a roll over was iment!! I whirled and moved and got him at the asr sec!!!

And "Rocky's" taken away was not and has not been "yeah ... don't do that again???" Nope his take away is that? Dad has my back and this crap ... is a good time??? :surprise:

But when he rolled down the embankment in the dark ... I figured that was it with this "Wheel Chair Crap??" I'd called out an d he never made sound?? The light him and he never moved !!! I just knew he'd had to have a broken his neck when he tumbled down the slope???

But nope I scrambled down and he was like ... what took you so long??? I righted him got him to the top ... and figured "that was it with the "Wheelchair Crap???" Still off leash so I figured ... he'd just head back for home??? 

But nope ... he turned away from home, to continue on our walk just like nothing different had happened??? I was stunned??? Even that experiance ... made "no difference to him!" Dad has my back ... I'm good! The only thing I'be seen that has shaken him. was when he no longer had "Struddell" he used to "trot" off in the distance trailing behind her. 

The first time I went for a walk with him in the desert after we lost "Struddell" I said "OK" expecting him to take off, but he would not leave my side?? Been three years now .. and he never does. 

I would so luv to know where he actually came from?? I'd luv to have a "Wobble" free version of a WL GSD just like him! And you know if in fact they were just "like him and Wobble free?? I'd still not recommend a "WL GSD" to most people! 

But now ... eight years ago my "Rocky" was a pretty "Butt kicking experiance!" But now I have heard he's a pretty "easy dog??" I suppose so ... still "anyone " inside of feet of five feet is "raw meat!" He is great in public and still does not much care for company in in his home. So eight years later ,,, I will only trust two people with him at my house alone. "underestimating him" was most likely a huge part of my problem?? 

And I will never "underestimate" another dog again! I learned a lot of stuff from my first "big Furry Dog with a pointy face." I rescued a PB APBT with a cat "cat issue" and just recently ... sadly could not capture a "American BullDog." 

I flagged down a passing "LE SUV Unit," and had them call animal control. I did not heard "shots fired" so hopefully that worked out well?? 

I seem to be a "Bully" magnet ... so you know ... I'm hoping for a "free" Dogo Argentino to show up on my front lawn! And heck if a "Boxer" actually shows up instead ... sorry those folks will not be getting that dog back!! I am not a saint ... I will tell "Marilyn to put the freaking down!! 

She did the right thing and cost us our "Sally" APBT" with former cat issues.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> I thought it was 1000 words per post max. Guess I should check the rules. But I am not counting words. I've gotten truncated once or twice. Oops. I don't think it is a bannable offense, not like posting the u-tube of "I think my dog's a democrat."


LOL my dogs and cats are Democrats! They listen to NPR"

But I'm pretty sure the limit is the in the 2000 to 2500 range?? I'm gonna base that on the fact that I don't tend to hit as much these days and the you know the less I say the fewer folks I tend to tick off.


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> I hate to break it to you but we do get ticks in the summer time. Not very often mind you but we can get them if you go out along the river. I pulled one off my dog a few years ago. Luckily it was only the one. LOL We also get plenty of scorpions. I got stung about 5-6 years ago. I lived in Arizona for freaking 30 years and never got stung move to Nevada and boom. *sigh* I don't have to go hunting for mosquitoes they come find me. The biting gnats are worse. Poor wiggles is allergic and her face swelled up like a balloon last spring. We had to get one of those bug repellent infused bandanna's for her. Nothing else worked.


LOL ... nope I'm good ... you said ... "ticks by the river!!" So you know ... unless your home is on the "Carson River" you have to go to where the ticks are around here. 

You got stung by a "Scorpion???" I think I did see one here many years ago and that one was dead. I've never seen a live one! I saw a "Black Widow" in the garden once and freaked out!!! I threw a tarp on the shrub and spider bombed it ... freaking Black Widows are suppose to be inside not in the yard?? 

I have no idea what a biting gnat is??? I guess we don't have them??? And the "Mosquitoes" I have to go to them! Carson River and only over the water?? Pretty amazing actually ... they just are not around here?? In the summer pools of standing water ... are not really an issue! )

And since we got here ... I have never seen a single tick! Freaking creepy things but at least in "Dayton" uh ... pretty much no humidity and lots of dust seems to work in dogs owners favor.  

Maybe you ought to move???


----------



## Chip18

Caroline5 said:


> Ok, I am wrong about the black widows they are occasionally found here, but rattlesnakes are not native to my area as it is to humid.


Naw, don't count on that!

Alaska and Hawaii don't have them everybody else does.


----------



## Caroline5

I'm certain that most of you are tired of hearing from me and about the Aria situation. I know you had said I need to let go and move on. It was hard because I just was so confused, something just didn't feel right about all of it. Well what I learned yesterday from the breeder's wife was that missing puzzle piece. Aria has more respect for men than for women and because of that I didn't stand a chance right from the start. I'm still sad because I love and miss her, sad that I invested 4 months and a lot of emotions in a dog who didn't love me back the way I was hoping, but relieved to know that I really had done nothing wrong and that hopefully my next experienced will be much more positive. .


----------



## voodoolamb

Caroline5 said:


> Aria has more respect for men than for women and because of that I didn't stand a chance right from the start .


Sorry... but that is absolute BS.

You earn respect from a dog. 

Men _might_ have a bit of an edge with some dogs because they have a deeper/firmer voice and tend to exhibit more dominant body language, but there is no dog on the face of this planet a dog savvy woman cannot get respect from.


----------



## wolfy dog

Caroline5 said:


> I'm certain that most of you are tired of hearing from me and about the Aria situation. I know you had said I need to let go and move on. It was hard because I just was so confused, something just didn't feel right about all of it. Well what I learned yesterday from the breeder's wife was that missing puzzle piece. Aria has more respect for men than for women and because of that I didn't stand a chance right from the start. I'm still sad because I love and miss her, sad that I invested 4 months and a lot of emotions in a dog who didn't love me back the way I was hoping, but relieved to know that I really had done nothing wrong and that hopefully my next experienced will be much more positive. .


Shows how uneducated your breeder is. Easy to put the blame on you. I agree, it is BS big time. To me it is plain and simple: that pup and you were just not the right match and you did the right thing. OK, back to Black Widows and other distractions.


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> Uh wow!!! Six mile canyon got closed??? :surprise:
> 
> My favorite stomping ground in my 951 (Porsche 944 Turbo) ... nice road. I didn't know about the flooding on the way to Fernley??? Snow is in the forecast for all most all of next week?? And I'll have to make three trips out there to work with a client ... should be interesting??


Yes 6 mile washed out. Check out Lyon County's facebook page they have pictures of some of the flooding and lots of info. Be safe out there. It sounds like it could get sloppy again soon. 



> I would so luv to know where he actually came from?? I'd luv to have a "Wobble" free version of a WL GSD just like him! And you know if in fact they were just "like him and Wobble free?? I'd still not recommend a "WL GSD" to most people!


I totally agree with you on that one. a WL GSD is just not for everyone. While we loved our boys I don't think I'll ever do a working line again. But never say never right?! > Kiska is turning out to be really a mellow girl and that is exactly what we were looking for. Our most intense dog right now is Tasha and that is only when it comes to her Kong. She is 11 so her intensity has dialed back over the years we've had her. I'd love to know Kiska's background story. She looks all Shepherd and is a big girl but she is so mellow and sweet, there has to be something mixed in. 

If your looking for a specific dog you should mention it to LCAS. They are really good at matching dogs to people. They messaged me the day they picked Kiska up. Said you have to come meet her, she is perfect for what you are looking for, and she was. 



> LOL ... nope I'm good ... you said ... "ticks by the river!!" So you know ... unless your home is on the "Carson River" you have to go to where the ticks are around here.


haha well I'm smack dab between the river and the lake. So yeah I get the ticks, mosquitoes, and the Carson river gnats. I'm right in the center of the cloud you were talking about.

Yes I've been stung by a scorpion. It was no big deal. I react worse to bee stings and spider bites. I keep a bottle of liquid benadryl around just in case.

I haven't seen any rattlesnakes here yet but used to see them all the time at our house in Arizona. As long as you see them you are good. You can stay away. They are noisy and let you know to keep your distance. One was wrapped around a bush in Arizona and struck at my daughter with no warning as she was walking by on her way to feed our critters. Now that wasn't nice. Luckily she was able to jump out of the way. My husband went out and hunted him down. Now the rattles are on necklace my daughter, I think, still has. 

None of the desert critters really scare me. I saw a video yesterday that went viral of a freaking huge alligator. Now that would terrify me. It was big enough to consider Kiska just a snack.


----------



## wolfy dog

Chip18 said:


> LOL my dogs and cats are Democrats! They listen to NPR"
> 
> But I'm pretty sure the limit is the in the 2000 to 2500 range?? I'm gonna base that on the fact that I don't tend to hit as much these days and the you know the less I say the fewer folks I tend to tick off.



Why all the "s, caps and ....s in your posts? There are so many words and I still don't know what you are trying to say (often). :|


----------



## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> Shows how uneducated your breeder is. Easy to put the blame on you. I agree, it is BS big time. To me it is plain and simple: that pup and you were just not the right match and you did the right thing. OK, back to Black Widows and other distractions.


 That's ok, you can believe what you want. I contacted several breeders and trainers who have been involved with the breeder for 30 plus years, one 54 years and they all said that this made perfect sense and some had even seen it before.


----------



## Caroline5

wolfy dog said:


> Shows how uneducated your breeder is. Easy to put the blame on you. I agree, it is BS big time. To me it is plain and simple: that pup and you were just not the right match and you did the right thing. OK, back to Black Widows and other distractions.


Plus they weren't blaming me, they saw that she was behaving the same way for his wife and realized that I truly had not been at fault. They also recognized how much I had been able to train her in spite of the challenges I was experiencing with her.


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## selzer

Some dogs tend to be more comfortable with women and some men. I used to think it was more who the breeder is. The pups, if not socialized to the sex opposite of the breeder might feel more comfortable with the sex of the breeder. 

And yes, some dogs do better with a deeper, firmer tone of voice, and the more confident posture that men sometimes exhibit. 

But, I think the breeders that you are talking to are wrong that this dog cannot function with a female or respect a female. I've never seen it. 

Yes, dogs can have preferences. But I think people are more set on preferences than dogs are. Lots of times bitches gravitate toward men, and dogs gravitate toward women if there is a choice. Not always. And guys for some reason often want dogs. I'm a gal, and I particularly like bitches. My nieces, one likes dogs, one likes bitches, and their mother has promised them one when they are 12, and they had better figure out what sex they want, LOL. 

We get a pup to be a companion, to be affectionate, to be responsive. It was certainly a bad match, you should not believe that this is normal for the breed or lines. It isn't.


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## Aaliyah

I don't have a lot of posts but I've spent a lot of time with rescue dogs in New Orleans because that's mostly what we got in the downtown area, and thankfully people are smart enough to adopt instead of bring more dogs from outside to a place that has plenty of dogs to offer.

Sorry for rambling off.

Getting to the main point, I think that rescue dogs are a good test group for this because they are pushed to their trust-limits in my opinion. I've gone through the process multiple times with two of my friends, my ex girlfriend (miss you Mister), and myself alone the last time (when I got Aaliyah). 

It's been clear each time that dogs will naturally gravitate to the opposite gender for me. I'm more than sure someone will respond with a couple of scenarios where I am wrong. But in my experience, 4/4 dogs (all under 1 year when brought home) I have been around while they were really getting socialized/raised, showed more direct signs of affinity to the opposite gender

I mean is it really that hard to believe? With natural instinct and all? They aren't exactly as rational as us to step back and realize hey this is a different species then me I should be objective when considering who I really like.

Just my opinion!


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## voodoolamb

Aaliyah said:


> thankfully people are smart enough to adopt instead of bring more dogs from outside to a place that has plenty of dogs to offer


So by your logic...the people who chose not to adopt and instead carefully chose a breeder and purchased a pup that would fit their lifestyle and needs are stupid?

I find that sentiment incredibly offensive.



> It's been clear each time that dogs will naturally gravitate to the opposite gender for me. I'm more than sure someone will respond with a couple of scenarios where I am wrong. But in my experience, 4/4 dogs (all under 1 year when brought home) I have been around while they were really getting socialized/raised, showed more direct signs of affinity to the opposite gender
> 
> I mean is it really that hard to believe? With natural instinct and all? They aren't exactly as rational as us to step back and realize hey this is a different species then me I should be objective when considering who I really like.
> 
> Just my opinion


Yes it is hard to believe. I have literally owned and worked with dozens of dogs. Lots of fosters. Both bitches and dogs. I have never had a single problem as a woman getting the bitches to bond with me. Or for them to respect me. Nor have I heard that from the many many contacts I have heavily involved in dog sports and rescue.

And that's the issue - that the OP claims that the breeder told her the pup would never respect her as much as she would a man. And that is complete and utter BS. There is not a dog on the face of the planet that exhibits that kind of sexism.

Some dogs may be conditioned to love or fear or respond better to a specific gender based on their experiences. Some dogs respond better to the softer higher pitched voices of women. Some respond better to the deeper and firmer voices of men - but ALL of that can be overcome by a skillful handler of either gender.

But we aren't talking about dogs with a questionable past, but a brand spanking new pup that was raised by a woman. 

It is absolutely ridiculous to blame the dog's lack of respect for her prior owner because of gender. It was a mismatch of personality. A dog that required a different skill set then the OP possesses.


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## Caroline5

voodoolamb said:


> So by your logic...the people who chose not to adopt and instead carefully chose a breeder and purchased a pup that would fit their lifestyle and needs are stupid?
> 
> I find that sentiment incredibly offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is hard to believe. I have literally owned and worked with dozens of dogs. Lots of fosters. Both bitches and dogs. I have never had a single problem as a woman getting the bitches to bond with me. Or for them to respect me. Nor have I heard that from the many many contacts I have heavily involved in dog sports and rescue.
> 
> And that's the issue - that the OP claims that the breeder told her the pup would never respect her as much as she would a man. And that is complete and utter BS. There is not a dog on the face of the planet that exhibits that kind of sexism.
> 
> Some dogs may be conditioned to love or fear or respond better to a specific gender based on their experiences. Some dogs respond better to the softer higher pitched voices of women. Some respond better to the deeper and firmer voices of men - but ALL of that can be overcome by a skillful handler of either gender.
> 
> But we aren't talking about dogs with a questionable past, but a brand spanking new pup that was raised by a woman.
> 
> It is absolutely ridiculous to blame the dog's lack of respect for her prior owner because of gender. It was a mismatch of personality. A dog that required a different skill set then the OP possesses.


I never said that the breeder had claimed that she would never respect me because I was a woman. Those were my words. "Aria has more respect for men than for women...." Every dog is different, no one can make a blanket statement that just because one dog behaves a certain way that the next one will behave exactly like that. We don't know what was going through Aria's head and why she behaved that way, we can only observe how she behaved. Bottomline is that this is what was observed. But what was also observed was how well she knew certain commands that I had obviously taught her and the fact that in spite of the challenges I was having with her that she learned them. The breeder observed this behavior and knows now that this was the challenge I was dealing with and that I did my best.


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## Caroline5

Caroline5 said:


> I never said that the breeder had claimed that she would never respect me because I was a woman. Those were my words. "Aria has more respect for men than for women...." Every dog is different, no one can make a blanket statement that just because one dog behaves a certain way that the next one will behave exactly like that. We don't know what was going through Aria's head and why she behaved that way, we can only observe how she behaved. Bottomline is that this is what was observed. But what was also observed was how well she knew certain commands that I had obviously taught her and the fact that in spite of the challenges I was having with her that she learned them. The breeder observed this behavior and knows now that this was the challenge I was dealing with and that I did my best.



"These were my words not Those were my words, I typed that wrong.


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## cloudpump

Caroline5 said:


> I never said that the breeder had claimed that she would never respect me because I was a woman. Those were my words. "Aria has more respect for men than for women...." Every dog is different, no one can make a blanket statement that just because one dog behaves a certain way that the next one will behave exactly like that. We don't know what was going through Aria's head and why she behaved that way, we can only observe how she behaved. Bottomline is that this is what was observed. But what was also observed was how well she knew certain commands that I had obviously taught her and the fact that in spite of the challenges I was having with her that she learned them. The breeder observed this behavior and knows now that this was the challenge I was dealing with and that I did my best.


Meh, sounds like an excuse. But obviously the dog will find an owner more suited to it. Hopefully, your next dog won't be so gender biased.


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## gsdsar

My goodness this thread is crazy. 

OP, I for one am glad that you recognized that this was a bad match and that you had chosen a breeder with integrity that quickly took the puppy back. Had you not this could have been a bad situation. 

I am disheartened by the replies you have gotten in this thread. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how many times members have told a buyer to call a breeder and return a bad fit, but then here you come with a story and reason why, and get crucified. 

People, in the end, it was a bad fit. Why is irrelevant. It just was. Maybe in another home this dog will shine. In this home she would not have. Period. 

Hindsight is 20/20 and it is so dang easy to armchair train/own/handle and it's easy to assume that YOU could have done sooooooo much better than the OP, but not a single person here was in OP shoes. Leave the judgement elsewhere. 

Be glad that the OP recognized a serious issue in the match and made the right decision for her/him and the puppy. And be glad the breeder stepped up. Quit trying to make someone feel like they are wrong, just because you(collective) think you are right and could do a much better job. 

Sorry. Getting off my soapbox now, but still shaking my head.


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## Caroline5

gsdsar said:


> My goodness this thread is crazy.
> 
> OP, I for one am glad that you recognized that this was a bad match and that you had chosen a breeder with integrity that quickly took the puppy back. Had you not this could have been a bad situation.
> 
> I am disheartened by the replies you have gotten in this thread. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how many times members have told a buyer to call a breeder and return a bad fit, but then here you come with a story and reason why, and get crucified.
> 
> People, in the end, it was a bad fit. Why is irrelevant. It just was. Maybe in another home this dog will shine. In this home she would not have. Period.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20 and it is so dang easy to armchair train/own/handle and it's easy to assume that YOU could have done sooooooo much better than the OP, but not a single person here was in OP shoes. Leave the judgement elsewhere.
> 
> Be glad that the OP recognized a serious issue in the match and made the right decision for her/him and the puppy. And be glad the breeder stepped up. Quit trying to make someone feel like they are wrong, just because you(collective) think you are right and could do a much better job.
> 
> Sorry. Getting off my soapbox now, but still shaking my head.



I like you. :smile2:


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## lhczth

She is good people. 

I am going to close this thread. I think it has run its course. 

ADMIN Lisa


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