# this style of training and dog, old school.



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

this dog was quiet popular with my mentor/peer group back in the day. just thought it would be interesting to discuss what you think about this training and this style of dog - please not too arrogant or condescending about how much better you think you are now in a modern context. 

it is about training theory and methods and its's progression/evolution.

this dog is absolutely for real and was a true working dog in his day.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm not sure what I was seeing in the video. I get putting back pressure once a dog is on the bite to force the dog to bite hard and as full as possible but I don't get pulling the decoy around. Seeing videos out of context is hard. The dog looked nice and calm. Seemed clear headed.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

yr same questions prompted my posting the vid. so my answer is...????


sse those boys in the background towards the end, they are not easily impressed but they used this dog.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

He doesn't seem really quiet to me.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

MichaelE said:


> He doesn't seem really quiet to me.


???? you saying he vocalises a lot???


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The only thing I can think of, is he's pulling the dog to "help" the dog pull the decoy to the ground to teach the dog to pull down once on the bite. A friend of mine is an old German trainer and he has done something similar with his young dogs. He just doesn't toss his decoys around as much.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

or put his foot down on the decoys back while pulling the dog backwards on the bite??

the training seems to suggest maximising harm to bad guy as oppossed to just neutralising the threat with minimum force to achieve compliance??


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Maybe Cliff, Tim or someone can shed some lite on it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what is this -- border dog?
sure the dog has fight and seems clear -- but to this "discuss what you think about this training" I say what training? what? training? . I see zero control.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dog had great control, when he wasn't being jerked around. I feel sorry for his neck/trachea! He transitioned well, wonder if his bark was inhibited by the constant neck pressure.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the handler did not have control


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

The training looked bad, not even an out on the dog, so judging from that clip neither dog or training are impressive.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This video shows some work that is often done with finished police dogs. I don't know that I would classify this as training as much as I see a dog working a suit. I see plenty of police dogs worked like that in training refresher days. Obviously, this dog is a serious dog that has been trained to do man work....without understanding the purpose or standard of his training, it is impossible to tell quality. He is intense, he works the suit, a nice dog, but this video tells little about training methods to discuss.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff , they would be so finished and I don't mean in a polished refined state of training , I mean finished as in you're out of here ! Not in a civilized society. Maybe back in the shameful days of early civil crowd control - may those days be gone forever . But the association with this kind of oppressive use of dogs delayed or prevented many communities from getting approval and budgets. 

This dog on the you tube , I have no idea what it is supposed to show or prove.

This dog would never certify .

This handler would never certify.

Use of leg and foot as leverage to yank dog off a bite !? -- 
no control .

This dog would not pass a schutzhund trial , a ring trial , a mondio , or knpv trial . Not with this behaviour which I attribute to training , lack of , -- no connection to handler either .

KNPV met lof , which I know , one a gsd whose sister is on my pedigrees, and foreign visiting guests with knpv dogs --- control is outstanding . Hard , I mean seriously hard "violent" aggression ---- but clear and clean outs -- without drive taking a dive . just a sample


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, there is no training going on in the video to what I see. I have seen countless dogs worked like this in training modules. The same dog will or will not out when called upon. No this is not what you should see in any sport routine....having said that; the difference in police work on the street is the goal is to apprehend or subdue the suspect until help arrives. No correct decoy presentation, no correct full grips, but the dog must be prepared for the perp to do anything, and as such must use necessary force to either control or subdue. You see I don't know if the intent of this session is to just work on fighting the perp in a sustained confrontation. When dealing with inner city suspects high on crack or pcp the work by the dog often isn't a pretty picture by the book. Not condoning brutality or abuse by the dog whatsoever, but the best training is the training that closely resembles what will take place on the street. In that regard, I want a dog with that type of intensity, albeit also with controls. But let me be honest, many dogs that get really caught up in the heat of battle are NOT going to out like they do in sport or even in training. The real thing is something different altogether....especially in cities and urban areas where life and limb can be on the line everyday for K9 dog as opposed to some more rural areas where the dog might be threatened twice a year.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing, the dog that certifies or graduates the academy doesn't remain the same dog once it leaves training and is involved in many confrontations. Just like the scout dogs that left Ft Benning changed once they went into combat zones. Anxiety levels are higher, stakes are higher, handler less reliant on control and more reliant on no chances taken. Now the type dogs on the street changes from geography to geography .....I agree with the baseline needs of control and obedience for police service dogs....trust me.....but I have seen many many dogs worked just like that dog today here in the northeast. Mistakes can be fatal, officers err on the side of the dog winning either fair or not fair. This has led to problems with suits and depts losing funding in times past...but society today is really getting fed up with some things and just like when a person has committed a high profile violent crime they are often not arrested by the "book", the same thing happens in real life on streets with dogs far more often than what is reported or what we want to believe.jmo


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know any department urban or rural , white picket or armpit location , where annual re-certifications are not mandatory . They test the proficiency and the control . 
No call offs , no re-certification, no outs , no re-certification. Go back to school. Fail too often and you strike out. 
Rural dog use is not easy -- not when you find a nest of "bikers" or some grow-op .


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i viewed a YT of some US working police dog competition in the desert, i assume cos it was a competition/media event with free public access that the better dogs and handlers were attending.

the one constant in the whole comp of many dogs and handlers is that every single dog in the comp had to be manual lifted off the decoy with that gag reflex manouver??






carmspack said:


> I don't know any department urban or rural , white picket or armpit location , where annual re-certifications are not mandatory . They test the proficiency and the control .
> No call offs , no re-certification, no outs , no re-certification. Go back to school. Fail too often and you strike out.
> Rural dog use is not easy -- not when you find a nest of "bikers" or some grow-op .


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

here is a grandson, the old dog is a proven producer of hardness and aggression thru his females and males, most are anonymous street dogs. it's good that lovers of the breed see some of the unsung heroes occasionally as opposed to the over-hyped laboratory experiements that get way too much attention and credit for a job never done - if i take a stroll thru the valley of death i won't be fearing no evil with a norse/lex son at the end of the leash.

nothing flashy here and this is just natura/undeveloped aggression, you think you are going to get it over this dog with some training under his belt.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

x11 said:


> many dogs and handlers is that every single dog in the comp had to be manual lifted off the decoy with that gag reflex manouver??[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> This is all I have seen as well. Honestly I don't care. I'd rather the dog get hung off then the dog out and the bad guy start running again and the dog have to re-bite causing more injury and the city/county sued for excessive force. Lets be honest, that's what would happen too.
> ...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

or the smart bad guy yelled "oust" the dog outed and the dog/handler got stabbed to death - another reason i despise seeing the schuts decoy correcting and giving commands to the dog in the blinds (training).


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

carmspack said:


> ISRAELI DOG ATTACKS UNBELIEVABLE - police K9 and military dog MALINOIS DVASH - ??? - YouTube


 
not being racist and i know this was posted as a training demo but geez come on, this is *GERMANSHEPHERDS.COM*

not mal central. just sayin


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

x11 said:


> or the smart bad guy yelled "oust" the dog outed and the dog/handler got stabbed to death - another reason i despise seeing the schuts decoy correcting and giving commands to the dog in the blinds (training).


 
I believe most dogs only listen to the handler. So I wouldn't worry too much about the out. 

As for schH training, it depends on the dog. I try to do no correcting but I do demand respect from the dog. My dog Heidi is dirty in the blind, and the more the helper corrects, the more it lights her up. I love it. I recently had a old school helper tell me he could clean her up. She was sent in got dirty so he started whipping her in the face. After her face was bleeding He said to call her out because she was pressing him harder and he was afraid he was going to get bit for real haha. He told me she's a bad bitch and then told everyone that all corrections need to come from her handler. I love that dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

All I'm going to say is that I decoy for annual recertifications and work with the academies. Yes, there is a standard that has to be met in passing....and dogs meet that certification in a training session on that day. ( often with the use of remote collars....but that's another subject)...but the way a dog is worked in a training session for cert or recertification, and the way a dog is worked on the street are often very different. And it's not unusual ....but we'll leave it at that.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

lol my decoy gets a set permanent weekly payment to decoy the handlers dogs at no cost to the handler, all they gotta do is book a time and they get as much free training as they want. the only requirement is the handlers/dogs have to pass a test about 2 times a year. the decoy spends his days doing basically nothing and about a day before testing is due he trains up to 40 dogs a day, the minute after the dogs get their test done he never sees them again untill the day before the next certification test, go figure.



cliffson1 said:


> All I'm going to say is that I decoy for annual recertifications and work with the academies. Yes, there is a standard that has to be met in passing....and dogs meet that certification in a training session on that day. ( often with the use of remote collars....but that's another subject)...but the way a dog is worked in a training session for cert or recertification, and the way a dog is worked on the street are often very different. And it's not unusual ....but we'll leave it at that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how do you think this would go over in a trial (court room) . Everything is on tape these days for mutual benefit , meaning the arresting officer and the apprehended . If not then you have a citizen with a cell phone -- the "Little Brothers" , which were so instrumental to the Boston arrests.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

On the other hand there are more than a few security and policehandlers that aren´t exactly the best dogtrainers and not so much about the dogs are to bad ass to out I´ve seen plenty of policedemos/training from different countries in real life and on YT and many of them had decent outs, even if naturally a highly stressed dog may not out so quick and perfect like a sportdog, but this dog discussed here was just a training situation and not a dog in a highly stressfull situation on the street. Working as a securityhandler where you often are alone and no weapons like the police I would not feel so safe if the dog isn´t controllable, don´t know if a powerhouse of dog would tolerate me as a handler if I started to pinch it in the groin to make it out either

Nice looking dog, when was it born, I guess this is some years ago? Can´t say so much I think just on that clip, he doesn´t show any real aggresion which I suppose is good for a securitydog to make people think twice before the situation escalates, seems more like he view the man like a big preybunny, but this is maybe due to the training.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

All police go through sensitivity training also, see how much is used after 10 pm ....lol. Carmen, I understand everything you wrote, and don't disagree in theory, but real work in a society where everyone has guns and weapons definitely raises the stakes.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> As for schH training, it depends on the dog. I try to do no correcting but I do demand respect from the dog. My dog Heidi is dirty in the blind, and the more the helper corrects, the more it lights her up. I love it. I recently had a old school helper tell me he could clean her up. *She was sent in got dirty so he started whipping her in the face. After her face was bleeding* He said to call her out because she was pressing him harder and he was afraid he was going to get bit for real haha.


This may be a stupid question but is that normal practice for a sport dog?? (Or is yours a Police K-9)
I don't understand why a sport dog would get hit in the face till it bleeds in training? I can understand in a MWD or even a Police Dog that will get hurt on duty?
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I just don't understand why you'd let that happen?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Everyone? Really, a justification for police brutality? Self fulfilling prophecy, not cool at all. Mr. King could attest to that, though no dogs were involved.

With _authority_ comes great responsbility, or at least in a civil society that's how it is supposed to work...and this has nothing to do with pedigrees or training. Though I listened to a K-9 handler justify the use of dogs because they have more control. hmmm.






cliffson1 said:


> All police go through sensitivity training also, see how much is used after 10 pm ....lol. Carmen, I understand everything you wrote, and don't disagree in theory, but real work in a society where *everyone* has guns and weapons definitely raises the stakes.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Mooch said:


> This may be a stupid question but is that normal practice for a sport dog?? (Or is yours a Police K-9)
> I don't understand why a sport dog would get hit in the face till it bleeds in training? I can understand in a MWD or even a Police Dog that will get hurt on duty?
> I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I just don't understand why you'd let that happen?


 
From a lot of the conversations on this board I would say no, it's not normal practice. Yes, my dog is a "sport" dog, but I don't train routines and I don't train for sport. I train for my dog to be real. As a matter of fact this dog is competing this weekend and has never seen the routine. That's what I want. A dog that does what I tell it because I told it to do so. Not because it's the pattern it knows. IMO once the dogs learn the routine it's over. Oh and sport dogs can get hurt to. This same dog broke her neck a couple years ago on a long bite. She was jammed up by a national level schH helper. She took a year to fully recover. Not as intense as she used to be and she gets a little sore now and again but she still loves it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Everyone? Really, a justification for police brutality? Self fulfilling prophecy, not cool at all. Mr. King could attest to that, though no dogs were involved.
> 
> With _authority_ comes great responsbility, or at least in a civil society that's how it is supposed to work...and this has nothing to do with pedigrees or training. Though I listened to a K-9 handler justify the use of dogs because they have more control. hmmm.


 
The problem about reading about all the brutality cases is you never get to see how they really got started. People need to stop walking around with blinders on.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

mycobraracr said:


> The problem about reading about all the brutality cases is you never get to see how they really got started. People need to stop walking around with blinders on.



I work in the law enforcement field and let me tell you, it doesn't matter how it was started....its all about public perception.

With public perception it better look like its supposed to look or your job/career in law enforcement may be over!

As a peace officer I am trained to do things by the book...nothing less. Rest assured, a canine officer will be held to that same standard in a court of law.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The only way to maintain a civil society is through questioning authority.

It chaffs the men/women who patrol _the toughest streets_ in this country I know.

The 'everyone' is armed concept is a total logical fallacy and a dangerous one at that, (though we do seem to be going out of our way to try and make it so) in that it creates justification for use of authority where none may be present and that leads to an abuse of authority.

Edmund Pettus bridge (they used dogs too).......it can happen again, it can happen in slow motion one person at a time, it can happen in Boston.



mycobraracr said:


> The problem about reading about all the brutality cases is you never get to see how they really got started. People need to stop walking around with blinders on.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Cliffson, thank you for your last post. I didn't read into it what Gwenhywfair did, I just took it as an honest representation as to what's really out there. You did say, "In a *society* where everyone..." not implying every single soul out there, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I watched a video of two police officers detaining and then arresting a very belligerent man carrying a loaded semi auto rifle.

The officers were amazing in their judicious use of restraint and patience.

I was cheering for them the whole way. I honestly don't know how they kept their cool, but they did. They had authority, they used it and used it well and deserve much praise! Excellent men (in this case two male officers) doing a very difficult job very well. 




Saphire said:


> I work in the law enforcement field and let me tell you, it doesn't matter how it was started....its all about public perception.
> 
> With public perception it better look like its supposed to look or your job/career in law enforcement may be over!
> 
> As a peace officer I am trained to do things by the book...nothing less. Rest assured, a canine officer will be held to that same standard in a court of law.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is what he wrote, exact quote:



> real work in a society *where everyone has guns and weapons*


Not ambigious at all. 








Blanketback said:


> Cliffson, thank you for your last post. I didn't read into it what Gwenhywfair did, I just took it as an honest representation as to what's really out there. You did say, "In a *society* where everyone..." not implying every single soul out there, lol.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Obviously only the writer can clarify their thoughts. But how *I* took it his comment, was that yes, in theory he agreed with Carmen - however the reality is that in some areas, the residents are armed and dangerous. Why deny that fact? It's true.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It is possible he meant it in a more precise way but his language does not indicate that and it's something I'm hearing too much of lately.......not from Cliff only, but in general.

I cannot elaborate because it would tread too closely into the political arena for this site.

More on topic, there's a video some police officers made of their dog, with really hard rock music of their dog training and the dog is pretty brutal. One of the trainers I used to work with stopped helping PD dogs because he was getting too beat up and that's with a bite suit. He's tough guy too. He said one of these days that dept is going to have a problem....

Maybe not.....




Blanketback said:


> Obviously only the writer can clarify their thoughts. But how *I* took it his comment, was that yes, in theory he agreed with Carmen - however the reality is that in some areas, the residents are armed and dangerous. Why deny that fact? It's true.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I cannot elaborate because it would tread too closely into the political arena for this site.QUOTE]
> 
> This is why I stopped posting. I was actually enjoying the conversation. Oh well maybe another time


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, definitely no politics! Lol. But I have had encounters myself with people who have literally lost their mind to drugs. To the point that they don't even see the GSD beside me, or at least they acted like they didn't see him. Maybe they just had no fear of him? I can fully understand why you'd want a menacing presence in a situation like this. Now add guns to the mix, and a sense of 'nothing to lose' and you're in deep doo-doo.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Eh, you knew it was going to go that way with the exchange between Carmen and Cliff, I knew when I watch X11's video.

In this case it's about how dogs are 'used'......

I gotta hand it to Cliff though, seriously, because I may not agree with his P.O.V. but he's speaking _his truth......_





mycobraracr said:


> Gwenhwyfair said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot elaborate because it would tread too closely into the political arena for this site.QUOTE]
> ...


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My rule if thumb. "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> My rule if thumb. "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six".


That's a very popular saying in these parts too!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL!! I know a couple of boards where it's all rough and tumble politics, all day. I'll PM the links if you like...   

I hear ya. I think there are lots of good police officers out there. I happen to know a few personally. It's one of the hardest jobs in this country and they often are WAY underpaid for what they do.




Blanketback said:


> No, definitely no politics! Lol. But I have had encounters myself with people who have literally lost their mind to drugs. To the point that they don't even see the GSD beside me, or at least they acted like they didn't see him. Maybe they just had no fear of him? I can fully understand why you'd want a menacing presence in a situation like this. Now add guns to the mix, and a sense of 'nothing to lose' and you're in deep doo-doo.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Rarely have I been accused of being unfair. 

On topic, IMO, police dogs should out and like you said earlier too, it's been my experience with even our 'pet' dogs they often don't respond to the commands of a stranger.

BTW- just because a dog has a good out doesn't have to automatically mean it has NO fight, right......






mycobraracr said:


> My rule if thumb. "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six".
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, thanks - those links sound like fun, lol. 
Underpaid? Now there's an understatement!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Blanketback....that is exactly how I meant it....I took for granted that most rational people understand that nothing is absolute, and though there are plenty of fair and by the book officers, (and I was one once myself).... When deployed in high crime or high combat areas, things often take a life of their own. People may think I make stuff up, and if that makes them feel good....well so be it....but I usually post on things I have seen or done and not on just a few occaisons. Denial and outrage by some do not change reality, and I live in reality.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

High combat?

I really can't respond fully, I don't want to cause trouble except to say I disagree with your justifications (direct) with the way dogs are being used by LE. No one is above the law, including K9 handlers.




cliffson1 said:


> @Blanketback....that is exactly how I meant it....I took for granted that most rational people understand that nothing is absolute, and though there are plenty of fair and by the book officers, (and I was one once myself).... When deployed in high crime or high combat areas, things often take a life of their own. People may think I make stuff up, and if that makes them feel good....well so be it....but I usually post on things I have seen or done and not on just a few occaisons. Denial and outrage by some do not change reality, and I live in reality.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

To be fair to cliffson....he is not condoning poor behavior but simply stating it does exist.....
Unfortunately he is right.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Leave it alone Sapphire....let folks think what they want.....it's all good . 
Gwenfair, I see your point and stand corrected.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I really hope you do Cliff, thank you for understanding. 




cliffson1 said:


> Leave it alone Sapphire....let folks think what they want.....it's all good .
> Gwenfair, I see your point and stand corrected.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

We need Doggiedad here to start "Kumbaya"


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