# Silver or Blue? Can you guys tell?



## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Hi there!
I apologize if I commit any forum faux-pas, I’m new here! I’ve been awaiting the arrival of an all black litter produced from two all black long coats. I was very surprised when the breeder called me and told me that 5 out of 7 pups had been born, with what she’s calling, “silver ” coats. I cannot for the life of me figure out if these pups are blue or silver sable. Their coats look blue to me now but I know that they change greatly over time. The breeder also told me that the Sire’s grandfather was a blue but I’ve heard you need blue on both sides to produce blue puppies. Any info would be greatly appreciated!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pedigree might help
picture might help

two blacks can not produce sable anything 

probably a recessive for dilution of black


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Here’s a photo, I’m sorry. I thought I posted it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yup....that's a blue. Not in standard, should not be bred, but will be stunning as an adult.


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

I’m so excited! I’ve always dreamt of having a blue but I know it’s not really a color one seeks out. I’m not disappointed in the least.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've seen patterned blues but never a solid other than in a picture. They are gorgeous. Make sure the parents have been health tested. A gorgeous, unhealthy, animal is not what you want. The fact that the grandsire was blue strongly implies this isn't the most reputable breeder.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Blue is recessive, so that means both sire and dam must carry the gene. The colour is not accepted by the breed standard, but if you want to neuter this dog, and just have a pet you can do obedience with, hey, go for it!

And yeah...health testing on the parents...

Don't let the seller convince you the blue pups are MORE desirable$$$ due to the 'rare' colour! That will be an instant tipoff they are NOT a reputable breeder!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

definitely a blue - dilution factor 

this bright sivlery colour will change 

pups as adults will be gray looking 

as far as I know there is no corelation to health problems 

in years past the old timers would have quietly disposed (culled)
an irregular colour including blue, liver , and white .

the price for these blue pups should nto be one penny more 
don't be taken for the "rare" and special 

they are the same as the black littermates - with a dilution factor 
that was expressed


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I've seen patterned blues but never a solid other than in a picture. They are gorgeous. Make sure the parents have been health tested. A gorgeous, unhealthy, animal is not what you want. The fact that the grandsire was blue strongly implies this isn't the most reputable breeder.


I did meet one several years ago.He was solid blue-gray like a Russian Blue cat.Just stunning.


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Thank you all for your replies. I believe some of them are black and blue patterned. I didn’t know that a blue could be anything but solid. The breeder isn’t charging more for them but I am sad to learn that some of you believe these blue pups are an indication that she not reputable. Could you explain why? As I said, I’m a newbie here and I’m thankful for all the input! The sire is registered with the AKC, the dam with KCL. I am indeed planning to spay and keep her as a family member and therapy dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Feelgood, it's because it's a dilution gene (dilutes the colour) and the breed standard of the German shepherd states strong, rich colours are preferred.

A breeder that is not following the breed standard is not a reputable breeder.

Here's a long coat solid blue as an adult: https://puppytoob.com/dog-breeds/what-is-a-blue-german-shepherd-here-are-the-facts/


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Feelgoodhope said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I believe some of them are black and blue patterned. I didn’t know that a blue could be anything but solid. The breeder isn’t charging more for them but I am sad to learn that some of you believe these blue pups are an indication that she not reputable. Could you explain why?


Perhaps that was not quite phrased well enough!!!! If the blues are an accident - and she does not repeat the cross, and if she does not tout htem as "rare" and upcharge for them - then she is being ethical....if she DOES charge more, if she breeds the pair again to get the color - that would be unethical according to the parent club and breed standard




> As I said, I’m a newbie here and I’m thankful for all the input! The sire is registered with the AKC, the dam with KCL. I am indeed planning to spay and keep her as a family member and therapy dog.


What is the "KCL"????  by this statement, the pups cannot get AKC papers - and then I would call the ethics and integrity of the breeder into question....are you in the USA????

Solid blue dogs can be striking! I personally love them - but as I respect the breed standard, I would not breed one, or breed a pair at risk for producing them...but I can admire them on a personal level.

Lee


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's a long coat solid blue as an adult: https://puppytoob.com/dog-breeds/what-is-a-blue-german-shepherd-here-are-the-facts/


Instead of neutering for AKC, consider a vasectomy so he maintains the hormones, yet is infertile. I wonder if the AKC accepts this though. Might need proof from the vet. The dog in the article looks like it has a neutered coat; curly, lacking luster and irregular.
BTW: personally in no way would I let the AKC dictate the hormonal status of my dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Lee, at first I thought like you, but then I thought, wait, surely the breeder knew the grandsire was a blue, and would therefore pass on the blue gene.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Never heard of KCL registry... and since one parent is AKC, the pups can not be registered in the US. If they are in the US, then this is not someone that I would consider as ethical or reputable. No reputable breeder would be intentionally breeding two dogs together that are not both AKC registered (unless one is an import and AKC paperwork is in progress from FCI recognized foreign registry.)

As others have stated, Blue is a serious Color Fault in the breed. It is a diluted gene. That set of parent's should not be bred together ever again. Any blue pups should be spayed or neutered and placed in pet homes. That doesn't make them any less of a dog, just not a breed worthy one. Personally I think a solid Blue is gorgeous, but probably will never have one, and would never ever breed one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Feelgood, it's because it's a dilution gene (dilutes the colour) and the breed standard of the German shepherd states strong, rich colours are preferred.
> 
> A breeder that is not following the breed standard is not a reputable breeder.
> 
> Here's a long coat solid blue as an adult: https://puppytoob.com/dog-breeds/what-is-a-blue-german-shepherd-here-are-the-facts/



sure - but a large portion then are not following a breed standard 

prefer or call for a strong pigment -- then many of the WGSL's leave
a lot to be desired 

I believe if I were to go back into Das Schaferhund Magazin I could
pull up multiple progeny that were "blue" from Uran Wildsteiger Land

so where do you stop -- do not breed the expressed blues - 
do not breed those producing blues?

some blues are pretty like the Russian Blue kitty cat , others are dull
stone grey 

where you run into questionable breeding is when you have those that
will breed the "rare" colour , without consideration for anything else 
and profit mightily from it taking advantage of those who don't know better.


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Lee, 
I couldn’t find anything on the KCL other than the Kennel Club of Lebanon. I believe the dam is from the UK though. I was hoping I couldn’t find anything else on the KCL due to my own lack of knowledge and not a reflection of the breeder. I am located in the Northeastern US. Is there a risk in not being able to register with the AKC even if I’m not planning on showing or breeding?


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> Sunsilver said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a long coat solid blue as an adult: https://puppytoob.com/dog-breeds/what-is-a-blue-german-shepherd-here-are-the-facts/
> ...


I’m planning on getting a female, what is the procedure for spaying to keep hormones in tact? I was already concerned about spaying too early and affecting her growth plates, as I’ve read it can lead to joint problems down the road. Good thing I’m not bringing home puppy until October! I still have so much to learn.


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Does anyone have an idea of what a patterned blue would look like in this instance?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It's quite simple: wait until the growth plates are closed! This generally takes about a year. Some people advise waiting until at least 2 years old, but then you have to be very careful to keep her safe during her twice yearly heat periods.

You will know the hormones have done what they are supposed to do when the female has her first heat, which can be anywhere from 7 months to a year and a half, or even later. Average is about 12 months, I think.

If I weren't planning to breed, I'd spay a few months after her first heat, when the organs have shrunk back to their pre-heat stage. The blood supply increases when the female is in season, which increases the risk of surgery.

As for a patterned blue, it's hard to find a good photo without linking to one of those sites that is shilling blue dogs as 'special' and 'rare' and charging big bucks for them. Not the sort of site I care to link to! But if you do a google search, I am sure you will find one.

As for the registry, if the KCL is a legitimate registry, recognized by the AKC, you SHOULD be able to get your dog registered. However, having been down this route, I can tell you it will take time and there are a lot of hoops to jump through. One of my females had the dam registered with AKC, and the sire with the SV, though he'd been sold to an owner in Poland. Due to a number of screw-ups, two blank DNA tests, and pink papers not being properly signed, it took me NINE MONTHS to finally get her papers!

If you are not planning to show her, it would be easier to just let it go, or maybe get an ILP registration for her, if you want to do AKC performance events.


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> It's quite simple: wait until the growth plates are closed! This generally takes about a year. Some people advise waiting until at least 2 years old, but then you have to be very careful to keep her safe during her twice yearly heat periods.
> 
> You will know the hormones have done what they are supposed to do when the female has her first heat, which can be anywhere from 7 months to a year and a half, or even later. Average is about 12 months, I think.
> 
> If I weren't planning to breed, I'd spay a few months after her first heat, when the organs have shrunk back to their pre-heat stage. The blood supply increases when the female is in season, which increases the risk of surgery.


Thanks for this informative response! I just met my girl for the first time a few days ago and I was relieved to find out that the breeder doesn’t make me spay her until 18-24 months. Some of the pups appear to be blue and tan but I chose a solid blue. I cant wait to see how she grows!


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## Feelgoodhope (Sep 13, 2018)

Here’s some new pictures!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Feelgoodhope said:


> I’m planning on getting a female, what is the procedure for spaying to keep hormones in tact? I was already concerned about spaying too early and affecting her growth plates, as I’ve read it can lead to joint problems down the road. Good thing I’m not bringing home puppy until October! I still have so much to learn.


It's called an ovary-sparing spay. The vet removes the uterus, but not the ovaries. The only difference in terms of procedure is the vet has to be careful and precise about where they cut.


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