# Dispelling SchH Myths



## Vandal

Within the last week, I have been reminded of how easy it is for people to misunderstand the purpose and intent of SchH/IPO. 
Perhaps it is a case of people who _do_ understand, discussing aspects of it while those who do not participate read that exchange..... but clearly, some are simply not comprehending what it was intended to be about.

Lets start with one myth at a time, discuss/explain it clearly and then move on to the next. 

Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.

Those who believe this are encouraged to participate. I am asking that the people providing the answers offer something to back them up with, i.e. rule book excerpts, photos, video....whatever. I also feel that those that believe the myth should provide their own source for that belief.

Lets keep it real and try not to be sarcastic or emotional.....just the FACTS please.


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## Zeeva

Why do they 'beat' the dog when the dog is biting? Never understood that :c


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## my boy diesel

to make sure the dog wont retreat
a further test of nerves

in a real world situation the dog could be attacked by the person it is taking down


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## lalachka

I don't believe it, but then I read leerburg 's stuff and it had a line below

' If you own any dog, but especially a dog that has had the smallest amount of aggression or protection training it is your moral and legal obligation to make sure that you do everything possible to ensure that your dog is never in a situation where it could bite a child.'

I guess I'm wondering why he said that and I'm wondering if I'm wrong in thinking this means that a dog that had protection training changes in some way. 

I'd do IPO if I can find a club that picks up the phone so I don't believe this. But would like to know why he said this.

ETA he said this while talking about a case of a woman whose protection trained rots killed a child. She wasn't a responsible owner though

http://leerburg.com/kidbites.htm


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## zetti

The helper doesn't "beat" the dog. Those are carefully placed hits with a padded stick.

Will the dog be distracted enough to come off of the sleeve? Or will the quality of the grip change from full & confident to more hectic? 

Those are the kinds of issues the judge is looking for. A dog with good nerve strength is going to maintain a confident grip on the sleeve.

I'm sure Anne can explain far better than I.


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## lalachka

I thought the stick only became padded lately and it used to be a regular stick. 

I'm still OK with it. If the dog ever does need to protect then there's a chance he will get beaten. Might as well get used to it now.


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## bill

Any dog can bite a child if not exposed to children" that goes for a trained dog or not" a sound dog socialized and trained is safer than a dog not trained or socialized" a dog trained wrong is a liability" trained right would die for a child they would never bite a child" a dog that would is not a sound dog" no matter what he can do. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## lalachka

bill said:


> Any dog can bite a child if not exposed to children" that goes for a trained dog or not" a sound dog socialized and trained is safer than a dog not trained or socialized" a dog trained wrong is a liability" trained right would die for a child they would never bite a child" a dog that would is not a sound dog" no matter what he can do. J.m.o. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


That's what I thought and I was wondering why he threw that in. That does imply that dogs change after protection training, doesn't it? Lol then people read and myths start


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## zetti

lalachka said:


> I thought the stick only became padded lately and it used to be a regular stick.
> 
> I'm still OK with it. If the dog ever does need to protect then there's a chance he will get beaten. Might as well get used to it now.


One of the biggest criticisms of ScH is that it doesn't train the dog for "real life" protection, ie the dogs are being trained to win the sleeve away from the helper rather than protect the handler in real life scenarios. They're cuing on the sleeve, not the bad guy, IOW.

Again, Anne is the expert. I will add, however, that my best ScH dog was super social, loved everybody. Friendliest dog you could ever hope to meet.


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## lalachka

Yeah I heard about sleeve dogs. And I realize that schh is a sport and not all of them will protect in real life. And I'm still OK with the stick lol.


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## lhczth

I don't have my rule book sitting in front of me (it is in my truck), but unprovoked aggression or biting is an immediate dismissal and can result in the dog being banned for life. The dogs are temperament tested before the trial (while checking for the tattoo or chip) and before each phase. They must be neutral (or social to the people) to the judge, other people and other dogs in an informal (no obedience) situation. 

More later. I need to finish mowing the training field.


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## bill

When I was young I was typical teen boy cocky teen" but good in my heart" genetic? Did martial arts" boxed " joined special forces" jumped from planes" thought I was invincible.
did it change me? Yes wasn't as cocky" confidence" still had a good heart" genetics .
Sch. Builds the confidence it will make a sound dog better through bonding and training " plus fun if done right. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## simba405

lalachka said:


> I thought the stick only became padded lately and it used to be a regular stick.
> 
> I'm still OK with it. If the dog ever does need to protect then there's a chance he will get beaten. Might as well get used to it now.


Stick hits have nothing to do with real life protection. It's a stress test and a poor one at that.


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## lalachka

simba405 said:


> Stick hits have nothing to do with real life protection. It's a stress test and a poor one at that.


IMO it does. A dog that attacks will get fought and beaten. So might as well get used to the sensation. 

Though I will be protecting my dog before he protects me


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## Vandal

In this thread, I am not asking to be the "expert". I am asking the people who participate in IPO, or have participated in the past, to explain to people who do not....what is going on as clearly as you possibly can. I cannot possibly answer all of it myself, I don't have time.

I also cannot tell you why Ed Frawley says anything. Please keep the questions to something we can actually answer honestly. If you want to know what Ed thinks about something, ask him.


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## Freestep

Zeeva said:


> Why do they 'beat' the dog when the dog is biting? Never understood that :c


 Firstly, it's a padded stick, and it's a test of nerves. I doubt that it physically hurts the dog--I "beat" my dogs all the time when we play, and they love it. But if a dog is frightened, distracted or cowed by a stick, that reveals something about the dog's temperament (assuming the dog has not been abused or sensitized to being hit). 

Secondly, you are desensitizing the dog to being hit. In a real situation, the bad guy is going to fight the dog, hitting, kicking, whatever he can to get the attack to stop. The IPO stick hits are a humane and stylized way to simulate a helper that fights back. If you didn't have stick hits, IPO would simply become a game of chase, fetch, and tug, with no real courage or fight drive required. Some say it already is that way. 

Also, if it's a good dog, I think that stick hits excite the dog, bring up fight drive, and basically, make engaging the helper more fun. I know that sounds totally counterintuitive (and almost sounds like an argument for abuse) but honestly, I have seen more dogs get fired up over stick hits than get discouraged by them. 

I mean, look at GSDs when they play with other dogs. The way they chase, wrestle and bite each other, you'd think they're really getting hurt. But apparently, they either don't feel pain, or they are able to ignore the pain because they're having so much fun.


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## lhczth

My dogs do not see children much. My husband and I didn't have kids and, living in the middle of no where, children are sort of an anomaly. 

Burgos' Unika SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC PPD (yes, she truly was) the first time with my nephew. "C" was not yet 3 and Nike was 9.5. 









Then in June of the next year. "C" was 3, Nike 10.










Nike's daughter, Balien zu Treuen Händen SchH3 (reg) AWD1 FH2 CGC (her sire produced dogs for both sport and police and she is from a long line of titled dogs). 










One more. Donovan zu Treuen Händen IPO1 TR2 AD. He is now a service dog for a veteran with both PTSD and also his diabetic alert dog (he just started to alert on his own). Anyone who knows anything about service dogs for vets with PTSD know the dogs have to have the best of nerves and be very discerning with no tendencies to unprovoked aggression (which could be very dangerous). These dogs go EVERYWHERE with the vets and watch their backs, comfort them and help them through flashbacks if needed. I wish I had some uploaded some of the photos of Donovan with kids loving on him. 

Giving comfort to his Marine and hanging out with many veterans at an ice-fishing get together.


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## bill

Great dog Liza!! I will say a true solid sound" great Shep! 

Stahl my boy!


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## lhczth

Forgot to mention, Donovan is Nike's grandson and Vala's (Balien) son.


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## Vandal

Chango v. Adler Stein SchH 3...circa 2005

In keeping with the myth I was hoping we could discuss first.... that being that SchH dogs are dangerous to family, friends and children. Not my kids in the picture, they belonged to the dog....and their parents.


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## onyx'girl

My dog that washed out of schutzhund is(or could be if I allowed it)'dangerous' to family friends and children. 
The dog that has a stable temperament that can excel in the sport is one that is usually a go anywhere dog that doesn't have to be managed in such situations.


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## trcy

zetti said:


> One of the biggest criticisms of ScH is that it doesn't train the dog for "real life" protection, ie the dogs are being trained to win the sleeve away from the helper rather than protect the handler in real life scenarios. They're cuing on the sleeve, not the bad guy, IOW.
> 
> Again, Anne is the expert. I will add, however, that my best ScH dog was super social, loved everybody. Friendliest dog you could ever hope to meet.


It's a sport. If somebody wants a personal protection dog they would train it to do that not ScH.


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## Vandal

> It's a sport. If somebody wants a personal protection dog they would train it to do that not ScH.


 Mine are both and I expect them to be both. When done correctly, SchH does a fine job of educating the dog in that regard.


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## bill

Sch. Started as a breed test to test drive and nerve it was fun but had a purpose. Schutzhund means protection dog! 
Can't protect if all you want is a sleeve! To do it right takes a sound dog. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Chris Wild

RE: stick hits

This is a test to see how the dog responds to pressure, discomfort and stress. Really, this is what all of SchH protection is about and the stick hits are just a part of that. While it doesn't cause a great deal of pain, the stick hits are not comfortable little love taps either. Even though the stick is padded, give yourself a good whack with it and you'll see that it is not pleasant. And the old reed stick most certainly packed a whopper of a hit.

A properly executed drive with good stick hits places a tremendous amount of pressure on the dog, both physical and mental. One of the key facets to evaluating the dog in protection is seeing how the dog responds to that. A good dog will fight back against the helper in a confident manner, trying to control and dominate the helper.

Some dogs will show insecurity when the drives and stick hits come. Their grip will loosen and they will show other signs that they are lacking commitment and that the helper is bothering them a bit more than the dog should be bothered. Other dogs will, for lack of a better term "overload" a bit and while they will fight back strongly in doing so they loose clarity. They may not out or may show control problems as the routine goes on and cumulative stress takes a toll. 

SchH protection isn't just about biting. It is just as much about maintaining a clear head and responsiveness to the handler as the stress mounts and the dog becomes more and more aroused. And it is, to an extent, about the dog's ability to read the situation and modulate his behavior accordingly, escalating and reducing his own aggression in response to the level of threat presented by the helper. When the helper is neutral, such as in the hold and bark in the blind and the guarding after the outs, the dog should remain engaged with the threat, but in a manner that is in line with the amount of threat presented. In this case, no biting when just barking and posturing will do. When the helper tries to escape or directly attacks the handler or dog, then a bite is called for. When the helper fights during the bite, the dog should fight back. When the helper ceases fighting, the dog should again reduce his own aggression and let go. And whenever the handler is in the picture directing the helper... during the pick up in the blind and after the outs, the set up for the escape, the transports... the dog must defer to the handler and let the handler take charge. The dog should remain watchful and alert, but should be in a state of obedience not a state of aggression. At least not until the helper becomes an active threat again, such as the attack out of the back transport, and then the dog must once again intercept the attacker and engage the threat, and then immediately disengage and go back to a state of watchful obedience again as the handler retakes control.

The dogs who cannot do these things, either because they lack the "courage, hardness and fighting drive" required and show insecurity and lack of commitment, or the ones who fight a little too much, lose self control and obedience, and don't properly modulate their aggression in response to what is happening at the different portions of the routine are both faulted.


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## bill

Great post Chris Wild! 
That is why a balanced dog is so important! Bill:thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## Chris Wild

zetti said:


> One of the biggest criticisms of ScH is that it doesn't train the dog for "real life" protection, ie the dogs are being trained to win the sleeve away from the helper rather than protect the handler in real life scenarios. They're cuing on the sleeve, not the bad guy, IOW.



This depends on A) the dog and B) the training.
Yes, some dogs are just out there playing a big game of tug-of-war with a sleeve and the helper is, at best, an opponent in a contest over the sleeve. Many of these dogs wouldn't hurt a fly, and wouldn't know what to do with a helper if he didn't have a sleeve on.

But other dogs are quite serious about it and are out there to meet a threat and dominate and overpower the helper. They bite the sleeve because that is one of the rules of engagement that they have been taught. But while they'll bite the sleeve if it is present, and they have a reasonable shot at getting to it, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't still bite without a sleeve if a threat presented itself. These sorts of dogs will bite for real if the situation calls for it, and can be easily transitioned to a bitesuit or hidden sleeve for additional training.

Some dogs, due to their genetics, are only capable of playing a game. But there are plenty of dogs whose genetics make them perfectly capable of viewing this as something more and with these dogs it comes down to the training. If trained to play a game and view the helper as a rough and tumble playmate, that is how they will view it. If trained to be more serious and view the helper as a threat and a challenge, then that is how they will view it.

Anne is absolutely right when she says that when done correctly, SchH protection does a very good job of testing the traits needed for true protection and for teaching a dog the skills needed... both the fighting skills AND the control skills... and if someone wanted to do more "real" protection work it wouldn't take much additional training at all to accomplish that.


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## bill

We must always remember
A balanced shepherd can do it all" and be good at everything" and do it all right" protect" love" play with the kids" catch bad guys" go to war" lead the blind" sar" movies" sch. Be a pet! Wow that's why they are special! Their are a lot of good ones out there. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Liesje

I do not have kids and my dogs are not regularly exposed to them (my closest friend with kids is older, all kids in HS or college). Nikon is my Schutzhund trained and titled dog. I think the photos speak for themselves? Nikon visits my husband's second grade class, he walks in parades each summer promoting my husband's school, and when I have friends whose kids are interested in doing something with a dog I let them be his junior handler for dock diving events. In May we had a couple stay in our home for 3 weeks while they adopted a newborn baby. The baby was also here (she came from the hospital to our house). I'm happy to report that Nikon didn't give a rip about having two harmless strangers in his house nor was he interested in the infant.










Morgan, one of his junior handlers for dock diving

























Kylie, another dock diving junior handler

















Random kids I'd never met but their mom knew my husband and they wanted to see my dogs









Two titled Schutzhund dogs eating from a child's hand


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## lauren43

I think this is my favorite thread. Shepard's being what they were bred to be.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## bill

Great looking. Dogs sound"
All lines! Bill:beer:

Stahl my boy!


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## zetti

Chris Wild said:


> This depends on A) the dog and B) the training.
> Yes, some dogs are just out there playing a big game of tug-of-war with a sleeve and the helper is, at best, an opponent in a contest over the sleeve. Many of these dogs wouldn't hurt a fly, and wouldn't know what to do with a helper if he didn't have a sleeve on.
> 
> But other dogs are quite serious about it and are out there to meet a threat and dominate and overpower the helper. They bite the sleeve because that is one of the rules of engagement that they have been taught. But while they'll bite the sleeve if it is present, and they have a reasonable shot at getting to it, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't still bite without a sleeve if a threat presented itself. These sorts of dogs will bite for real if the situation calls for it, and can be easily transitioned to a bitesuit or hidden sleeve for additional training.
> 
> Some dogs, due to their genetics, are only capable of playing a game. But there are plenty of dogs whose genetics make them perfectly capable of viewing this as something more and with these dogs it comes down to the training. If trained to play a game and view the helper as a rough and tumble playmate, that is how they will view it. If trained to be more serious and view the helper as a threat and a challenge, then that is how they will view it.
> 
> Anne is absolutely right when she says that when done correctly, SchH protection does a very good job of testing the traits needed for true protection and for teaching a dog the skills needed... both the fighting skills AND the control skills... and if someone wanted to do more "real" protection work it wouldn't take much additional training at all to accomplish that.


When it's done right-- isn't that the core issue? Truly good helpers can be so hard to come by, depending on where you live.


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## Doc

1.What is different in today's ScH activities that are rewarded with points and an overall score when compared to the Stephanitz' original ScH breed worthy test that was either pass/fail?

2. Why was it changed?


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## bill

I don't have a clue doc" political correctness?
Make it not as hard?
I'm sure someone knows. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Doc

Just curious what changed and why? And since it changed, should/does it measure breed-worthiness anymore? Not trying to start anything just trying to see what opinions are out there.


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## bill

Doc I will add the old sch.
They still keep score" they did away with guard of object" attack on handler" not sure what else been out of it a long time! I will say no one has said anything about tracking" my favorite thing" when my boys were young we would take turns finding each other with the dog" all kinds of scent games" and messenger dog!! That was really fun! Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Vandal

I have done SchH since the mid 70's and while I cannot tell you when they switched to a scoring system, as long as I have been doing it that has always been how it is. It was there some years before I started as well.
During that time, I have seen and worked simply fantastic dogs working in SchH who were absolutely breed worthy.


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## Steve Strom

Doc said:


> Just curious what changed and why? And since it changed, should/does it measure breed-worthiness anymore? Not trying to start anything just trying to see what opinions are out there.


Well, in my opinion it has value for breed worthiness because it is being judged by an outside party and right in public view. People can see the differences in the dogs. Don't just assume nobody can see whats a good dog and what isn't. Its not just about the points.


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## glowingtoadfly

I thought, from what I have observed and read here, that it was about what going through all three phases told the breeder about the dog more than points.


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## bill

The number one draft pick is not always the best player" just stating the facts" and if you know what to look for is a excellent breed worthy test. I.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Castlemaid

Gryffon - being tested to the nth degree at my request. Trainer could not make him back off. He was shooting blanks over his head, throwing things at him, etc . . . I was told he was tested to the same level as police dogs are tested, and he just came back stronger into the fight. You can see that the stick is padded and flexible to prevent causing damage, but the hits are real. 









During the same protection seminar, we worked Gryff with a hidden sleeve for the very first time in his life. He was three years old. 
He didn't hesitate one iota, and with his very first bite on the hidden sleeve, he was committed to taking the attacker down and wrenched the decoy's arm:









This is a dog that has only had traditional SchH training: it is an excellent way to really see what is in the dog, and does not take away the "real" dog that might be there. When using a hidden sleeve, to the dog, the fight is now real. The decoy wore the black hoodie up and the sunglasses to appear more menacing - this training did not make Gryff suspicious or reactive to people wearing black hoodies or sunglasses out and about - a balanced dog with good nerve is not out looking for a fight, and does not get confused about innocent people walking around wearing hoodies and sunglasses with a person similarly clad, walking up to him directly, acting threatening and menacing. 

I don't have any children, the only kids that Gryffon has been in contact with are kids we come across in town who ask to pet him - he loves it! He'll sit quietly with a goofy smile on his face and eat up the attention. 

I bring Gryff and Keeta to work with me most days. The temps here are cool enough that they can stay in the car during the day - and they get their breaks with me. They hang out with the regular break crowd and lap up the attention and petting. Sometimes when things are quiet or if I work after hours, I bring them in the hangar with me. 

I made them pose for this pic - you can see a couple of people kneeling behind the open doors of the helicopter and working - Gryff is completely fine off leash with people around, responsive to my directions and wishes, and the people working are also unconcerned of his presence. 









I usher them upstairs and down the hall to my office - they know the way well!









Part of their favorite thing when being at work with me, is the people that stop by to play and interact with them. Both Gryff and Keeta love this and eat it up!










Gryff's close up from our vet's Facebook page - he loves the attention at the vet, and was delighted to sit and ham it up for the camera:










Just added this last pic to show that the vet is a non-issue. Accepts handling well and is not stressed by stressful environments like the vet with all it's hustle and bustle and scary noises and smells.


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## bill

Anne what a great idea to start this thread" I'm sure a lot of people will see sch in a different light.I too started in the seventys" am surprised it hasn't become more popular " too many think of crazy bite dogs. Bill:thumbup::thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## Doc

To be more specific, I guess my original question was too vague , what exercises were used in the original Schutzhund test created by Stephnitz and why were they changed. Example - the wall height (what was the original height and what did it test) and why was it changed to the A- frame. What other exercises have changed from the original test? We know it has changed from a "pass/fail" test to points being awarded - why?

A more rhetorical question is: if the original test measured breed worthiness and the exercises have changed, does the modern day Schutzhund sport measure the same same since it is not made up,of the original exercises/test?


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## bill

Doc it is still pass fail" the points are to pick the dog with the best traits" drive" working abilities" if you have two great dogs have to be able to pick a winner"
Some breed a more prey ball driven dog to get more flashy driven dog"
Hence you here of sleeve happy" a balanced dog can be trained to be sleeve happy" but trained right can be serious" he loves to work" loves kids 100% safe " won't back down" he is a balanced German Shepherd" he might not be the number one pick on the team" but you will never win a championship without him.He has the best of all and not to much of anything. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## shepherdmom

Castlemaid said:


> Gryffon - being tested to the nth degree at my request. Trainer could not make him back off. He was shooting blanks over his head, throwing things at him, etc . . . I was told he was tested to the same level as police dogs are tested, and he just came back stronger into the fight. You can see that the stick is padded and flexible to prevent causing damage, but the hits are real.


Horrified.  Shooting blanks, hitting with a stick, throwing things? This is not convincing me in any way that SchH is something good.


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## Chris Wild

shepherdmom said:


> Horrified.  Shooting blanks, hitting with a stick? This is not convincing me in any way that SchH is something good.


It is a BREED TEST.
How else would you suggest one test if a dog has the traits needed to do protection? To serve the police or military? And the genetic ability to reproduce dogs who can?


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## Packen

There are many kennels that dispel the myths real time with no excuses (or long stories), here is an example,
SV Zwinger - von den Wannaer Höhen » Schutzhund und Sozialpartner sind kein Widerspruch


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## Doc

bill said:


> Doc it is still pass fail" the points are to pick the dog with the best traits" drive" working abilities" if you have two great dogs have to be able to pick a winner"
> Some breed a more prey ball driven dog to get more flashy driven dog"
> Hence you here of sleeve happy" a balanced dog can be trained to be sleeve happy" but trained right can be serious" he loves to work" loves kids 100% safe " won't back down" he is a balanced German Shepherd" he might not be the number one pick on the team" but you will never win a championship without him.He has the best of all and not to much of anything. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


So one difference is today they assign points in order to determine a "winner". As in a winner of a sporting event? Or the one that got the most points on that particular day. Isn't at least some of these "test" learned through rote exercises, meaning the dogs know the routines before they enter the ring? They practice them for days, months, years and memorize what they are suppose to do? So a well trained dog may score more points because do it's ability to perform the exercises very well,on a given day.


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## Vandal

> So one difference is today they assign points in order to determine a "winner".


 They have assigned points for decades!


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## Castlemaid

shepherdmom said:


> Horrified.  Shooting blanks, hitting with a stick, throwing things? This is not convincing me in any way that SchH is something good.



I can tell you that Gryff is not fazed by it one bit. I've seen you tube videos of police dogs that bailed and ran once the real-life perp start fighting back - what good is a police dog that runs off?


Of course, when you start SchH, you don't bring your green dog out to the field to have the decoy beat on it and scare it off by shooting blanks - you bring the dog along gradually, with easy exercises, and make it gradually harder and more challenging - this takes years! But along the way, you can see what the dog is made of - some will show avoidance and stress with only the stress of the physical presence of the helper standing over them. That tells you that the dog does not have the nerve for the training, and it stops right there. 

Of course shooting blanks is part of a test - what would happen if you took a police or military dog through training and they ran away and hid trembling the first time they heard shots? They'd be washed from the training program, but you have to test them first to see. 

That is why people who are interested in doing SchH are told they need to have their dog evaluated first - absolutely not fair nor ethical to force a dog into something that they do not enjoy, or worse, causes them stress. 

Just like a Husky is bred for pullling sleds and is never happier when working, just like a Gun Dog is bred for hunting and is never happier when splashing through wet-lands to retrieve water fowl, GSDs with the right working temperament are never happier when doing what they were bred to do. 

Gryffon loves this work - it makes him feel in control and powerful - that is the whole point of the training. This is not for any dog, that is why so many dogs, even with the solid genetics behind them will wash out. Not sure if these pics show what I want to show, but here he is watching the decoy move about - he is clear, focused, ready. 









He shows no residual stress - we can do three days of training in this vein, come off the field and he is relaxed and friendly with the spectators. He is still the easy-going dog that I take to farmer's markets, enter in Rally-O trials, and take to work with me. 

There are plenty of you tube videos of police dogs chasing perps without attempting to bite them and bring them down, even though they had plenty of opportunity, dogs that let go and run away when the bad guy fights back - these dogs have been poorly trained and poorly selected for the job - proper testing to see if they have the temperament to commit to the bite and stay in the fight is very important, and SchH training was the test that was supposed to weed these dogs out.


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## bill

Doc in Germany where sch. Org. They always gave points as far as I know" the dog had to get a passing score or could never be used to breed. It was always a contest also just like conformation. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Doc

Vandal said:


> They have assigned points for decades!


I know they have. But the question is why? Did Stephanitz assign points?


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## Doc

bill said:


> Doc in Germany where sch. Org. They always gave points as far as I know" the dog had to get a passing score or could never be used to breed. It was always a contest also just like conformation. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


My understanding is that in the original Schutzhund, the dog either passed or it failed - the judge made the call. They didn't earn points to,determine a winner.

I am asking questions so we all can learn - not trying to critique what is being done today. I'm just trying to see what/if has changed over the decades and why/who changed it. That's all. Of course I have opinions, but I am asking questions so we all can learn.


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## Vandal

No you 're not. You are asking questions to try to back up your ridiculous views. Sorry, I don't feel like playing.


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## Doc

Vandal said:


> No you aren't. You are asking questions to try to back up your ridiculous views. Sorry, I don't feel like playing.


You started the thread. I asked honest questions. You haven't bothered to answer anything I asked. How can you dispel the myths if you can't/will not answer simple questions?
I'm don't play games Anne. Thos days are long gone. If anyone would answer questions I thought you would. You learn something everyday.


----------



## Vandal

I sure did and this was what I wanted to discuss: 

Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.

Maybe you can tell me how you came to this conclusion since you are the source of it.


----------



## Sagan

Chris Wild said:


> It is a BREED TEST.
> How else would you suggest one test if a dog has the traits needed to do protection? To serve the police or military? And the genetic ability to reproduce dogs who can?


From my perspective, there are two types of gsd owners. Those that 'work' their dogs and expect a level of function from them and others that are treat them as children and house pets (and a gradient between the two). Because of the popularity of the breed the latter is becoming more widespread with each year. This has become a criticism of some referencing that the breed is being 'watered' down from their original intent. What I've read this happened to both dobermans in the 70/80s and rotweilers in 80/90s. 

I have no preference either way, if someone wants a gsd for their ppd or lapdog that's great. They're so different I have stopped trying to explain my position to the other side.

And thanks for your detailed posts earlier, I enjoyed reading them.


----------



## shepherdmom

Vandal said:


> I sure did and this was what I wanted to discuss:
> 
> Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.
> 
> Maybe you can tell me how you came to this conclusion since you are the source of it.



You know maybe its pictures like the one Lucia posted that make pet people believe these dogs are dangerous to family, friends and children. She did a really good job of explaining the process to get there but without that explanation just how the heck would the average Joe on the street know that. 

Even after her explanation of how they train up to it, I am still torn and think there has to be a better way. 

These dogs are our family members.


----------



## Vandal

I see, so you just skim RIGHT past all the other pictures and just fixate on the ones you don't like. That's simply willful ignorance.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Shepherd mom, I would encourage you to go to an event, then tell me the dogs aren't having fun.


----------



## Colie CVT

I really have truly loved reading this thread. I have heard mixed things about the Sch clubs in this area, though at this point I don't really have a dog who would work for the sport itself. I am learning a lot about it and protection, just different dog sports and the like in general.  I really am glad this was started personally because I love seeing dogs do what I have believed that a good GSD is. 

Someone posted that the protection training made their dog feel confident and like they could take the world on. I have to say that I fully agree with how it makes my dog Leia feel. She was already a well socialized dog when I got her. She is friendly with strangers of all ages, and she is neutral to passively interested in dogs who she comes across. She is all around a very relaxed and easy going girl. She did have some anxiety and stress colitis shortly after I got her, which was likely due to a combination of factors (not taking her last litter being weaned well, changes in ownership over her lifetime). It was a struggle for a bit to figure out how to get control of that, to get a bond going with her and most of all to help her realize that she had no reason to worry now. She is mine. I will not be giving her up. I won't give up on her.

She totally flunked her instinct test. She's from a UKC breeder that has gone to breeding White Swiss Shepherds. Leia's mother was a black and tan, and her lines seem to be german show mainly. She just stood and was looking around, not wanting to engage with the trainer in any way. He was nice enough not to charge me for that session. He had another idea to try, and once she caught on, the changes were extremely dramatic. Her confidence has just exploded. The sheer joy she finds in life has blossomed. She's my girl. I have full faith that she is at my side and will do her best to defend me.

She still is very social with people of all ages and I don't have to worry about her with other dogs at all. She has had kids give her hugs, pet her, one child one day even fell underneath her and she merely stood there without flinching. Fireworks do make her nervous as do gun shots, however she stays right at my side when they are going off nearby. That to me tells me all of the dog she has become, the dog she was meant to be. 

I know I am no expert and my dog is not titled or anything like that, but I do believe with the right training and the right dog, you can certainly have a nice balanced dog who is what the GSD should be.


----------



## trcy

shepherdmom said:


> Horrified.  Shooting blanks, hitting with a stick, throwing things? This is not convincing me in any way that SchH is something good.



It starts off slow. When I brought my 4 to 5 month old puppy in for training they did not start off by shooting blanks at him or hitting him with a stick.

It's all fun for the dogs. It started off with just tugging, then getting them to bark before they got the tug toy. After a while when he was tugging, the handler/decoy (?) would bring his hand down really fast like he was going to hit him right near the top iof his head/eye area, but when there was no reaction he would pet him and say "good". Most recently they have been slapping him around lightly on the sides while he is pulling on the tug/pillow. It does not phase him. They also have whips. They do not whip the dogs, but they make them crack near them. The dogs need to keep hold of the tug and not react. They have shot the starter pistol off during training......but it all starts slow. 

They have not used the stick on my dog yet. The dogs they do use it on are not phased by it. 

Before I Started going to club and training I was horrified by it too, but it look/sounds worse than it is. My vet even said dogs who are balanced and do ScH can go anywhere. They are very good dogs. I was surprised, because when I Riley was going there I always got lectures about how aggressive the bred is and I needed to get a handle on the dog. Riley was a bit reactive at times, but Kaleb is pretty mellow.


----------



## LifeofRiley

I’ll take a stab at answering Doc’s question from the vantage point of someone who is not involved in IPO. My guess is based mostly on my understanding of human nature, but is augmented by my observations of folks on this forum who select dogs purely for IPO purposes.

So, here is my guess… moving from a pass/fail system allowed Schutzhund to become a true dog “sport” in the modern sense of the term… and, it did so to attract more folks to take part in the endeavor. Not necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself. 

But, I would suspect that, just like what happened with “show” dogs, once there is ego/prestige on the line in terms of “winning” a competition, there will be breeders moving towards breeding choices that swing in favor of producing winning dogs with little regard as to whether or not that is what the breed was supposed to be... i.e. breeding toward an extreme that is not beneficial to the breed. 

I am not an expert and I don't want to become one, shelters/rescues will always be the place I go to find a companion dog…. so, these are just my thoughts, observations and opinions as someone who happens to have a GSD now, has fostered many, and thus has been an active member of this forum : )


----------



## shepherdmom

Vandal said:


> I see, so you just skim RIGHT past all the other pictures and just fixate on the ones you don't like. That's simply willful ignorance.


Sorry, my bad, I thought not asking questions was willful ignorance.


----------



## bill

Shepherd mom if you were talking about some jerk training a dog to be mean" junkyard dog type " I would climb to the roof and scream with you" but that is not the case these are sound dogs trained right" my first many years ago would be serious if told friends if not" he was never mad at you he did his job" just like to pro. Fighters they try to beat the crap out of each other" then shake hands after the fight. Bill

Stahl my boy!


----------



## Doc

Vandal said:


> I sure did and this was what I wanted to discuss:
> 
> Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.
> 
> Maybe you can tell me how you came to this conclusion since you are the source of it.


Look at the title page. There are two people who wrote this book. I'm the second name. I'm not sure how you know who wrote what in the book BUT there may be a slight chance you are wrong about who wrote that. It is most unfortunate that the "bite" has captured the spotlight in the "test" when so many other things demonstrate the versatility of this breed. The "bite" aspect is a PR nightmare and effects everyone that deals with a German shepherd. Every picture you see of a German shepherd participating in Schutzhund shows a do gnashing teeth at someone and to add to the horror, there is usually some slobber dripping out of their mouth. Go show Grandma that picture and try to convince her that German shepherds are wonderful dogs and wouldn't dare bite little Johnny when he runs down the street waving his arms around in the air.
The above myth is the perception by many including local police departments, (some identify home owners that have German shepherds and list those houses as having a dangerous breed living there) home owner associations, insurance writers, etc. It would be advantageous to breeders and owners if this particular trait was put in proper perspective with the rest of qualities of the breed.


----------



## Castlemaid

Hmmmm, I thought I did post pics of Gryffon interacting with co-workers, and being obedient and calm at the vet's and at my workplace.

Gryff is a housepet first and foremost. He lives in the house, he sleeps on my bed, he comes with me for ice-cream. He annoys guests by bringing them his toys and insisting they play with him. 

We go bicycling on the trails.









Pull silly stunts:









Hang out with Friends, real and stuffed:









Hangs out with the cats:








While proudly wearing pink,  (real dogs wear pink!) 









And remember that one of the three phases of Schutzhund/IPO is an extensive obedience routine, which includes off-leash heeling through a moving group. 








Just look at all those innocent people ambling around minding their own business, such easy targets!!! Such delicious arms for the taking, LOL! Yet, they are quite safe, and all readily volunteered to be on the field with my vicious bite-trained Schutzhund dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Shepherd mom, I would encourage you to go to an event, then tell me the dogs aren't having fun.


There are no events here. The closest I could find was Tracy California which is 4+ hours from here. 

So all that I and many people have to go on, is pictures we see and video that is posted.


----------



## trcy

shepherdmom said:


> There are no events here. The closest I could find was Tracy California which is 4+ hours from here.
> 
> So all that I and many people have to go on, is pictures we see and video that is posted.


That's to bad. When I told my parents I was going to train my GSD for IPO they didn't think it was a good idea. They thought he would be aggressive and bite at will. I had them come to the club meet. They watched the dogs train. After the dogs trained they interacted with the dogs. They also asked lots of questions about the sport. They came away with a whole different point of view. My Father was actually talking about getting a GSD and doing the sport. They have their limit on dogs right now. So, he is waiting. 

Even before I got a GSD and involved in the sport I knew police dogs were trained. I knew they bite and bark on command. There's nothing scary about that. It's a trained dog.

If somebody was attacking me would my GSD attack them. IDK, I do know my non IPO or attack dog trained golden retriever did.


----------



## Colie CVT

I think the main idea with the stick hits is the same idea with the yelling. You have an aggressor. Generally speaking most dogs who are met with someone who is being more aggressive than the average person, they are going to back off and be wary. They are the kind of dogs who will bite and then release, they don't have the kind of nerve that the breed is supposed to have. They are supposed to be strong and steadfast. Not intimidated or bullied. It takes courage and confidence to take on an attacker. Sure you can scream, slap and maybe ward away some people, but in the end, it is a bluff and a true threat will break through that. 

It could be something of perception in most cases. Generally speaking, most people are going to be horrified at the idea of a person seeming to hit a dog many times with a stick, potentially hurting it. The original idea was to test the strength and the will of the dog to hold fast and stay to the task, it will happen in real scenarios. The trainer who I worked with knew of a police dog who had been STABBED through her chest with a bayonet during work and she did not let go. That dog held fast and because of that, the situation was neutralized quickly. She did not have a lot of flash or presence during training, but the trainer knew without doubt, she had what it took in her.

I am always of the opinion to see something yourself, ask questions and listen with as open of a mind as you can about what you are seeing.

But this is coming from a person who has worked in not only shelters and vet clinics, but with livestock and in biomedical research.  Most people would feel I am a horrible person because I did help with research trials that required animals, and not all of them lived beyond the trial. However, my daily job was to be sure that they were fed, had water, were not stressed. I did get to help with sample taking and euthanasia, which all helped give me a broader understanding of everything that was happening and how proper things should be done. 

I kind of feel in a manner of speaking, if you feel that dogs trained in Sch/IPO are all one stereotype, you should go see it for yourself and speak with people there. Meet the dogs, talk with those who can explain what they are doing and why.

Though I do have to say its rather funny to see how those who know a dog is trained that way tend to act around the animal at times. A retired K9 came in needing some bloodwork done (poor old man had vestibular) and I watched him totally play with the two girls working with him who were both nervous since he was a K9. All he had to do was look sideways and they would flinch. He was muzzled too lol. Always makes me giggle. All he needed was a hand to rest his chin on and a scratch along his jaw to keep him "restrained". 

Was also fun to see them trying to get him to sit or lay down. He just stood there like, really? Nah. Ya'll don't mean it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Sch 3 protection routine, around 6mins total. 5 bites lasting 45-50 seconds. There's 3 phases to the sport. There's so much more time spent on the training for the other 2 along with the obedience in C, its not even close.


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## shepherdmom

Castlemaid said:


> While proudly wearing pink,  (real dogs wear pink!)


Love this photo. 

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. I can see that your dog can live in the house and be a good dog.. 

I just don't know how to get into words my concerns.


----------



## Castlemaid

I know that this is a bit off topic, but some people are really struggling with the concept and the context of SchH/IPO training. This video is an excellent introduction to what IPO tests, and why the test is designed as it is. Well worth the watch - packed full of information, funny, fast paced, and insightful.


----------



## Castlemaid

The second part of IPObservations is more in line with the thread's topic - the first half of the video goes over the BH - a basic temperament test that all dogs must first pass before moving on to the SchH/IPO training and titling requirements. Dogs are tested in obedience and attention to handler, in temperament and safety when out in crowds, in public and around other dogs. 

A dog that does not demonstrate good temperament can not move on to IPO. Another nail in the coffin of the myth that IPO dogs will bite everything and anything and are not safe in public.


----------



## simba405

As "watered" down as schutzhund is, I would guess 75% of gsds in the US couldn't get a bh. 

I've owned shepherds in the past that the best trainers in the world couldn't get a title on.


----------



## trcy

simba405 said:


> As "watered" down as schutzhund is, I would guess 75% of gsds in the US couldn't get a bh.
> 
> I've owned shepherds in the past that the best trainers in the world couldn't get a title on.


hmmm, I believe my breeders dogs are sent to Germany to be trained and titled. I wonder what the difference is between doing this in the US and Germany?


----------



## Castlemaid

I find it ironic that many anti-Schutzhund breeders who defend their choice to not use a breed test to test their breeding stock use the arguements that

A) it is so watered down, it does not serve any purpose anymore, and is nothing more than a carefully choreographed routine that any half-dead dog could do, 

and, 

B) IPO/Schutzhund training makes the dogs aggressive and a liability in public. 

Well, which is it? it can't be both. If it is watered down to be nothing, how can it make the dog aggressive if it isn't 'real' protection training? And it is false, as demonstrated by many members on this board, that IPO training makes your dog aggressive - not just in this thread, but in many threads people have bite-trained dogs that are fabulous pets and GSD ambassadors. 

Funny how despite boat-loads of evidence to the contrary, people just love to hang on to their misconceptions. 

I'm glad Anne started this thread, hope that others will take the time to post pictures, stories, and videos of their IPO/SchH dogs being just great all-around dogs!


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## Steve Strom

trcy said:


> hmmm, I believe my breeders dogs are sent to Germany to be trained and titled. I wonder what the difference is between doing this in the US and Germany?


 No witness's.


----------



## Yoshi

Vandal said:


> Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.


This here, is exactly the view that is being expressed over here in Australia.  

It's funny because I have never been to a Schutzhund club - only seen videos - and I really never even considered the myth before and when I mention bite sports to my friends and family they automatically swing back to the myth. Heck, when they heard that I might be getting a pup from a litter where both the parents had siblings in the police force they all looked at me incredulously, saying aloud, "Why on earth would you want a vicious, horrible dog??"  

Anyway, am enjoying reading this thread.


----------



## trcy

Steve Strom said:


> No witness's.


to what? When they had a dog show and conformation a German Judge was flown in. To me, being a novice, it seems like Germany does this better.


----------



## Castlemaid

Let's stay on topic - help dispel the myth that SchH/IPO dogs are dangerous. 

If you would like to discuss titling in Germany vs. titling in North America, please start a new thread.


----------



## trcy

Castlemaid said:


> Let's stay on topic - help dispel the myth that SchH/IPO dogs are dangerous.
> 
> If you would like to discuss titling in Germany vs. titling in North America, please start a new thread.


I'll just do a search. 

As for the myths, people will cling to them until they open their minds up to new things or admit maybe they have been wrong.


----------



## zetti

Castlemaid said:


> The second part of IPObservations is more in line with the thread's topic - the first half of the video goes over the BH - a basic temperament test that all dogs must first pass before moving on to the SchH/IPO training and titling requirements. Dogs are tested in obedience and attention to handler, in temperament and safety when out in crowds, in public and around other dogs.
> 
> A dog that does not demonstrate good temperament can not move on to IPO. Another nail in the coffin of the myth that IPO dogs will bite everything and anything and are not safe in public.
> IPObservations Episode 2 The German Shepherd Curriculum - YouTube


Good point. 

And while the Bh routine is pattern trained, the judge has wide discretion re what to do for the traffic safety portion of the test. It could be a cyclist going by, a jogger, any number of scenarios that would startle & stimulate a "bite happy" dog. 

The dog must remain neutral just as during the heeling through the group.


----------



## Baillif

Bacchus passive bite training - YouTube

This is how you test a dog.

I'm reading my newspaper you stupid dog.


----------



## lauren43

trcy said:


> I'll just do a search.
> 
> As for the myths, people will cling to them until they open their minds up to new things or admit maybe they have been wrong.



And this is why other breeds still have myths clinging to them as well. It's funny I started my dog adventure as a pit bull owner knowing their misconceptions...

Moving to GSDs I knew they had some myths that followed them around. But I didn't realize how bad it was until I joined this forum.


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----------



## Liesje

As far as the points vs. breed test argument, my understanding (as someone who has trained and titled in Schutzhund) is that if you want to title there are plenty of club events and if you want to compete and win you get qualified for national events or even WUSV. You can take it as far as you want, but the trials I have entered and observed at the club level have been more in the spirit of "breed test" events. I have seen judges award final points and sort of make the routine fit into their final assessment, if that makes sense? The dog would have scored differently if the judge had simply marked the points and tallied them up, but sometimes a judge will see through a really stupid handler error with a dog that is a very good dog and should go on or is breedworthy.


----------



## Doc

Liesje said:


> As far as the points vs. breed test argument, my understanding (as someone who has trained and titled in Schutzhund) is that if you want to title there are plenty of club events and if you want to compete and win you get qualified for national events or even WUSV. You can take it as far as you want, but the trials I have entered and observed at the club level have been more in the spirit of "breed test" events. I have seen judges award final points and sort of make the routine fit into their final assessment, if that makes sense? The dog would have scored differently if the judge had simply marked the points and tallied them up, but sometimes a judge will see through a really stupid handler error with a dog that is a very good dog and should go on or is breedworthy.


Thank you Lies - I understand your explanation and your answersto my question. So in your case, you have been more involved in shows where the judges are more interested in the quality of the dog and what the dog is capable of doing instead of awarding points based on pedigree, owner, trainer, handler? In your opinion, at the shows where you have participated or observed, what is the most challenging "test" for the German shepherd ? I have heard many Schutzhund participants say that they had a hard time passing the CGC because of the down/stay when they left the room. Although not near as intense of a exercise as the tests in Schutzhund.


----------



## bill

Doc if the dog can't do a down stay out of sight" the dog doesn't have what it takes to do sch. Bill

Stahl my boy!


----------



## Vandal

Doc said:


> Look at the title page. There are two people who wrote this book. I'm the second name. I'm not sure how you know who wrote what in the book BUT there may be a slight chance you are wrong about who wrote that. It is most unfortunate that the "bite" has captured the spotlight in the "test" when so many other things demonstrate the versatility of this breed. The "bite" aspect is a PR nightmare and effects everyone that deals with a German shepherd. Every picture you see of a German shepherd participating in Schutzhund shows a do gnashing teeth at someone and to add to the horror, there is usually some slobber dripping out of their mouth. Go show Grandma that picture and try to convince her that German shepherds are wonderful dogs and wouldn't dare bite little Johnny when he runs down the street waving his arms around in the air.
> The above myth is the perception by many including local police departments, (some identify home owners that have German shepherds and list those houses as having a dangerous breed living there) home owner associations, insurance writers, etc. It would be advantageous to breeders and owners if this particular trait was put in proper perspective with the rest of qualities of the breed.


 There are few things more vile than people who make up lies about anything, in order to incite fear and hatred. When two people collaborate in those lies, both are responsible. The "PR nightmare" comment is just laughable, particularly after you did, ( and continue to do), your best to create one .

As for your claim about insurance liability and costs going up due to "bite sports"....prove it. You have no basis for that charge. The people who are taking part in this discussion were asked to back up their experiences and claims, not just make unfounded comments designed to misinform. 

As for your last comment, breeders and owners would benefit from honest testimonials. That is what this thread is about but here you are making claims, with nothing to support them, in order to shift the discussion back to only biting.


----------



## Vandal

In the SchH/IPO trial, the dog must do a down stay while the other dog does obedience on the same field. In SchH 3 , the handler is out of sight. The dogs report in together and are in no way allowed to show aggression toward each other.


----------



## shepherdmom

Steve Strom said:


> 2013 WDC- Debra Zappia- Iron Von Den Wolfen - Protection 97pts - YouTube
> 
> Sch 3 protection routine, around 6mins total. 5 bites lasting 45-50 seconds. There's 3 phases to the sport. There's so much more time spent on the training for the other 2 along with the obedience in C, its not even close.



Wow lots and lots of drool. Is that normal?


----------



## shepherdmom

Baillif said:


> Bacchus passive bite training - YouTube
> 
> This is how you test a dog.
> 
> I'm reading my newspaper you stupid dog.


Now that's almost funny. And the dog does seem as hyped up either.


----------



## gsdsar

Baillif said:


> Bacchus passive bite training - YouTube
> 
> This is how you test a dog.
> 
> I'm reading my newspaper you stupid dog.



How on earth does this help dispel the myth that SchH dogs don't bite non threats. Literally the guy was just reading a newspaper and the dog attacked him. On command granted, but does not really help in the context of this thread. 

That said, the dog took a good amount of stress in fight back from the poor dude reading his paper in peace, until the end when you could hear some stress in vocalization and his slow response to respond to his handler. 


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----------



## robk

Baillif said:


> Bacchus passive bite training - YouTube
> 
> This is how you test a dog.
> 
> I'm reading my newspaper you stupid dog.


That is not schutzhund.


----------



## robk

If I was to take a random sampling of 100 dogs in my neighborhood plus my dog, I would bet that my dog, who does bite work regularly, would be the least dangerous dog in a public setting.


----------



## Baillif

gsdsar said:


> How on earth does this help dispel the myth that SchH dogs don't bite non threats. Literally the guy was just reading a newspaper and the dog attacked him. On command granted, but does not really help in the context of this thread.
> 
> That said, the dog took a good amount of stress in fight back from the poor dude reading his paper in peace, until the end when you could hear some stress in vocalization and his slow response to respond to his handler.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was told that dog never liked to out. That dog was a PPD and I believe won nationals in mondioring at level 1. And honestly who gives a crap about stress? He had a chair thrown at him and then a pile of wood. Dog should be a little riled up.


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## Vandal

The video that Baliff provided, as already stated by Robk is not SchH. However, it does a very good job of showing what is NOT allowed to happen in SchH. May I suggest that some of you read the post by Chris Wild posted earlier in this thread and then immediately watch the video of Deb Zappia and Iron. That might clear things up for you.

As for the comments about drool. That's a little like asking if it is normal for a racehorse to sweat during a race. This is a very physically demanding sport for the dogs.


----------



## zetti

robk said:


> That is not schutzhund.


Exactly. What did that video have to do with ScH?


----------



## llombardo

This question is for people that do the sport and based on a video I seen recently. Is it a good idea to have a child that is about 6-7 years old in the field giving commands to get the sleeve and out?


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## Baillif

Yeah cause we never go slightly off topic on any threads. Stick hits are not a good test of a dog. Throwing a wood pile and a chair at them is a little bit better.


----------



## carmspack

said with humor -- the way schutzhund is going, no danger , unless you are wearing a sleeve, and then it is play/prey.

saw a good looking , happy go lucky dog at last week's trial (Lance Collins judging) who would and probably is an outstanding pet and family member . 
His scores were good - 90's all round all 3 categories . 

Most people competing in the sport , at least in my area, live with their dogs .


----------



## Steve Strom

shepherdmom said:


> Wow lots and lots of drool. Is that normal?


 Of all the things to pay attention to on that, that's something I didn't even notice. I know I spit a little bit sometimes when I say Foos. As far as drool, maybe as I get older?


----------



## llombardo

This is the video in question and the kid is 4. I think I'm ok with it up until she is touching the dog while on the sleeve, but I'm not even sure it's safe in general.

GERMAN SHEPHERD PROTECTING 4 YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL FROM BAD GUY - YouTube


----------



## shepherdmom

Steve Strom said:


> Of all the things to pay attention to on that, that's something I didn't even notice. I know I spit a little bit sometimes when I say Foos. As far as drool, maybe as I get older?



My Tasha drools like crazy. None of my other gsds have ever done that before so I was curious if it was an individual dog thing ? 


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## Castlemaid

That is a darling little girl, and on her way to being a stellar handler! Love the video - does well to dispel the myth that SchH dogs are dangerous - this dog is completely clear and focused, and in no danger at all in redirecting - Obviously, you wouldn't expect this from just any dog, but a _good_ dog is this safe, even in the heat of bitework.


----------



## Zeeva

What is the difference between a dog biting a sleeve and a dogs jaw locking; shouldn't this type of training elicit a jaw lock rather than a release when commanded?


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## shepherdmom

Baillif said:


> Yeah cause we never go slightly off topic on any threads. Stick hits are not a good test of a dog. Throwing a wood pile and a chair at them is a little bit better.


Actually if it is testing the courage and temperament of the dog. Wouldn't throwing different things like wood and a chair and newspapers etc be more accurate a test than hitting them with the same stick every time? I mean isn't that cheating, like teaching to the test?


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## Castlemaid

Problem with throwing things is that you can miss.  Then what?


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## shepherdmom

llombardo said:


> This is the video in question and the kid is 4. I think I'm ok with it up until she is touching the dog while on the sleeve, but I'm not even sure it's safe in general.
> 
> GERMAN SHEPHERD PROTECTING 4 YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL FROM BAD GUY - YouTube


Wow. Wouldn't have put my kids in that situation but what a good dog!!


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## gsdsar

Zeeva said:


> What is the difference between a dog biting a sleeve and a dogs jaw locking; shouldn't this type of training elicit a jaw lock rather than a release when commanded?



Dogs jaws don't "lock". Physiologically not possible. Some dogs have a stronger bite and more "game ness" which may appear as a locked jaw. But they are not locked. 

And if you are teaching a bite, you always want an out, always. Handler must remain control of the dog and all it's actions. 


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## shepherdmom

Castlemaid said:


> Problem with throwing things is that you can miss.  Then what?


So for it to be distraction it actually has to touch the dog?


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## Vandal

> Actually if it is testing the courage and temperament of the dog. Wouldn't throwing different things like wood and a chair and newspapers etc be more accurate a test than hitting them with the same stick every time? I mean isn't that cheating, like teaching to the test?


 You cannot TEACH stick sureness. It is genetic. The idea that it doesn't test anything and throwing things at the dog does, is simply ignorant.


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## trcy

shepherdmom said:


> Wow lots and lots of drool. Is that normal?


My GSD has not drooled like that yet. When I first got my oldest dog we would take him to the dog park and he would drool like that. I think it's excitement. 



shepherdmom said:


> Actually if it is testing the courage and temperament of the dog. Wouldn't throwing different things like wood and a chair and newspapers etc be more accurate a test than hitting them with the same stick every time? I mean isn't that cheating, like teaching to the test?


I've seen the helper go down onto his back (purposely). The dog still has the sleeve and the helper will push at him with his feet and roll with the dog. The dog never let go of the sleeve. They also snap whips at the dog. They don't hit the dog with the whip.


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## carmspack

I was impressed by forum members' pictures of their dogs and descriptions , Lisa, Anne and Lucia.
The common denominator is a good dog .

A good dog should be incorruptible.
I have my own set of pictures and experiences , dogs that went into police service , with the handler's children , new born baby , doing public relations in schools and huge public events , doing an active , real life apprehension when the bad guy decides to run through a school yard at recess , made the arrest and never looked sideways or made a wrongful bite.
My son , 8 , at the time , helped out a lot , including with a dog that went to a sheriff's department and 3 weeks later made the Galveston paper front page for apprehending an escaped felon who had taken hostages, including a dog that went to RCMP , including a dog that went to Oklahoma max prisons -- all very serious working dogs , all with bite as a necessity for work , yet all endured my son and his active little boy friends , and , just thought of this , the visits they did to the school when they were "sled" dogs , and the visits they made to the Boy Scouts doing tricks.
The base is a good dog . 

Schutzhund does not make a bad dog. Schutzhund does not make a dangerous dog . 

If anything , one would hope , it would help identify and eliminate those that are or have the potential to be less than strong in nerve and balanced , without that sound mind and without that sound body.


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## Castlemaid

By the way shepherd mom, if you went back to the beginning of the thread and read the excellent posts by Freestep and Chris Wild, they do an excellent job of explaining different aspects of the SchH protection routine and the reasons they are set the way they are. Plus the two videos I posted are also great information - maybe if you read those posts a few times, watched the videos a few times, it will help in answering your questions. 

Maybe if you have some other questions you can start a thread with them - I alway enjoy explaining what SchH is to Newbies, but would be nice to keep this thread on topic.

From Anne's original post:


Vandal said:


> Within the last week, I have been reminded of how easy it is for people to misunderstand the purpose and intent of SchH/IPO.
> Perhaps it is a case of people who _do_ understand, discussing aspects of it while those who do not participate read that exchange..... but clearly, some are simply not comprehending what it was intended to be about.
> 
> Lets start with one myth at a time, discuss/explain it clearly and then move on to the next.
> 
> Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.
> 
> Those who believe this are encouraged to participate. I am asking that the people providing the answers offer something to back them up with, i.e. rule book excerpts, photos, video....whatever. I also feel that those that believe the myth should provide their own source for that belief.
> 
> Lets keep it real and try not to be sarcastic or emotional.....just the FACTS please.


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## shepherdmom

Vandal said:


> You cannot TEACH stick sureness. It is genetic. The idea that it doesn't test anything and throwing things at the dog does, is simply ignorant.


Again how do I learn to be not ignorant if I don't ask questions? 



> By the way shepherd mom, if you went back to the beginning of the thread and read the excellent posts by Freestep and Chris Wild, they do an excellent job of explaining different aspects of the SchH protection routine and the reasons they are set the way they are. Plus the two videos I posted are also great information - maybe if you read those posts a few times, it will help in answering your questions.


Well I did watch the video's and read the posts. That is why I have questions. But I will leave this thread to the experts.


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## Vandal

> Again how do I learn to be not ignorant if I don't ask questions?


 Did that not answer your question? The ability to withstand a stick hit is genetic. You can not 'teach' a dog to get over the fear of the stick.


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## robk

carmspack said:


> I was impressed by forum members' pictures of their dogs and descriptions , Lisa, Anne and Lucia.
> The common denominator is a good dog .
> 
> A good dog should be incorruptible.
> I have my own set of pictures and experiences , dogs that went into police service , with the handler's children , new born baby , doing public relations in schools and huge public events , doing an active , real life apprehension when the bad guy decides to run through a school yard at recess , made the arrest and never looked sideways or made a wrongful bite.
> My son , 8 , at the time , helped out a lot , including with a dog that went to a sheriff's department and 3 weeks later made the Galveston paper front page for apprehending an escaped felon who had taken hostages, including a dog that went to RCMP , including a dog that went to Oklahoma max prisons -- all very serious working dogs , all with bite as a necessity for work , yet all endured my son and his active little boy friends , and , just thought of this , the visits they did to the school when they were "sled" dogs , and the visits they made to the Boy Scouts doing tricks.
> The base is a good dog .
> 
> Schutzhund does not make a bad dog. Schutzhund does not make a dangerous dog .
> 
> *If anything , one would hope , it would help identify and eliminate those that are or have the potential to be less than strong in nerve and balanced , without that sound mind and without that sound body*.


This has been my mantra. Schutzhund exposes the dog. Both the good and the not so good.


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## shepherdmom

Vandal said:


> Did that not answer your question? The ability to withstand a stick hit is genetic. You can not 'teach' a dog to get over the fear of the stick.


It didn't really. However, I don't want to keep bothering the experts. I'll go read Doc and Khawk's book. Maybe that will answer some of my questions so I'm not such a noob.


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## Steve Strom

> Myth #1: SchH/IPO dogs are bred to bite people....all people....completely unprovoked, while they are simply minding their own business. It is believed that they are dangerous to family, friends and children.


 I've played tug and fetch with a 2 time North American Sch3 champion, in his yard without feeling in the slightest threatened by him. Two weeks later, he wouldn't allow a trespasser to move. 

I've had my kids with me to see puppies with the dams of the litters, Sch titled happy to see us. Played tug with different Mals, one would come directly off the field from protection and climb in my lap to lick my face.

They're dogs. They have different temperaments just like dogs that don't do any sports. Video is one thing, seeing them first hand is the best way to form an opinion.


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## carmspack

no answers there . Unfortunately. 
visit page 8 of this thread . Answers are there .


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## LifeofRiley

A few questions I have re: this topic – 
How much consistency is there in the quality of training from group to group? Are there right and wrong ways to train dogs in Schutzhund? What happens if a dog is exposed to bad training?

Is there a risk of getting started with protection training, but not seeing it through? In other words, what happens if you start protection training but quit before you reach the point where you have reliable control over the dog while in drive?

Below are the type of comments I have come across on this forum that have led me to wonder about this...
… “Make sure you find a club with a good training director and a culture that you like.” 
… “That training director sounds like he/she doesn’t know what they are doing.” 
… “If you start doing protection training, you really need to have the commitment to see it all the way through.”


----------



## Steve Strom

LifeofRiley said:


> A couple of questions I have re: this topic –
> How much consistency is there in the quality of training from group to group? Are there right and wrong ways to train dogs in Schutzhund? What happens if a dog is exposed to bad training?
> 
> Is there a risk of getting started with protection training, but not seeing it through? In other words, what happens if you start protection training but quit before you reach the point where you have reliable control over the dog while in drive?
> 
> Below are the type of comments I have come across on this forum that have led me to wonder about this...
> … “Make sure you find a club with a good training director and a culture that you like.”
> … “That training director sounds like he/she doesn’t know what they are doing.”
> … “If you start doing protection training, you really need to have the commitment to see it all the way through.”


 What I've seen, the difference in helper work would be more along the lines of erring on the side of caution. Not having the experience to pressure and working more like just play. I think there's right and wrong in everything. What that will be depends on each dog. If you watch 20 dogs worked in 1 night, you'll see how whats right is dependent on that dog.

Dogs drop out of Sch all the time, but the training should be balanced enough from the beginning that you aren't creating problems. I'd be a lot more concerned with some of the "Personal Protection" stuff creating a suspicious mess you have to constantly worry about.

You want to learn from someone good, sure. And as far as the club, you're going to be spending your time with these people. You want to get along and enjoy it. Its not like paying someone for lessons. No one owes you their time.


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## Castlemaid

shepherdmom said:


> It didn't really. However, I don't want to keep bothering the experts. I'll go read Doc and Khawk's book. Maybe that will answer some of my questions so I'm not such a noob.


I don't know about khawk, but from the comments made and questions that Doc asks on this forum, I doubt that he even so much as _seen_ a Schutzhund dog in person - let alone train a dog in protection, or even just gone to a trial to watch. Not sure that the book will be able to address the questions you ask. Or not with any hands-on knowledge or authority on the subject. 

Many people here have had similar questions to yours, and some misgivings, and completely changed their outlook after getting to know some SchH dogs, seen the training, and learnt more about the traits that make a dog strong and willing to fight, but completely safe when handled by a four year old.


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## Vandal

Training does not change the basic character of the dog. It does however, put his character on display.


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## Vandal

BTW, "hair of the dog" only works to cure hangovers, not ignorance....pardon the pun. That comment is directed at the literary "work" referenced on this page.


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## Packen

LifeofRiley said:


> A few questions I have re: this topic –
> How much consistency is there in the quality of training from group to group? Are there right and wrong ways to train dogs in Schutzhund? What happens if a dog is exposed to bad training?
> 
> Is there a risk of getting started with protection training, but not seeing it through? In other words, what happens if you start protection training but quit before you reach the point where you have reliable control over the dog while in drive?
> 
> Below are the type of comments I have come across on this forum that have led me to wonder about this...
> … “Make sure you find a club with a good training director and a culture that you like.”
> … “That training director sounds like he/she doesn’t know what they are doing.”
> … “If you start doing protection training, you really need to have the commitment to see it all the way through.”


With a good club (that titles dogs consistently at the highest level i.e. 3) you do not need to worry about "seeing it all the way through" (as the TD has already seen it through). You only get to progress in protection if/when you demonstrate control i.e. you can get the dog to focus on you, obey you in the highest level of drives and distraction (off leash). This is not easy and the reason many people quit after getting a BH or a 1 before getting there and you only see pictures of dogs on long/tight lines!


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## lesslis

So much respect and credit to those that so patiently TRY to educate over the years on this forum. You have the patience of saints. I do know some that REALLY want to learn, are reading, working the dogs and are learning. Some will never, don't want to, and will never get it. Too bad for those.


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## cliffson1

I trust this dog with grandson and he is ready for LE career. I'm equating LE work with SCH work for purposes of this topic.


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## Castlemaid

> If you start doing protection training, you really need to have the commitment to see it all the way through.”


This could be another myth that needs dispelling. I have seen and heard this a million times too on the forum, but never from people who are actually involved in SchH. In my experience and with talking to people with tons more experience than I have, this NEVER comes up - a solid dog, with good nerve, and good training won't be changed or harmed in any way or during any stage of the training. 

I have a mild disability, and our club lost our experienced trainers/decoys, so I don't come out all that often, and we only do serious protection work a few times a year when we travel to seminars, or get trainers to travel and come to us. I've not done anything with 
Gryff for a full year, then did three days of focused protection training. 
After not being on the field for a full year, the trainer said that if we were to trial, we'd earn a high 80's to mid 90's score in protection. 

So much for the "have to be commited to seeing it through" myth, or else your dog will be forever an out-of-control biting machine with no off switch . . .


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## robk

Castlemaid said:


> This could be another myth that needs dispelling. I have seen and heard this a million times too on the forum, but never from people who are actually involved in SchH. In my experience and with talking to people with tons more experience than I have, this NEVER comes up - a solid dog, with good nerve, and good training won't be changed or harmed in any way or during any stage of the training.
> 
> I have a mild disability, and our club lost our experienced trainers/decoys, so I don't come out all that often, and we only do serious protection work a few times a year when we travel to seminars, or get trainers to travel and come to us. I've not done anything with
> Gryff for a full year, then did three days of focused protection training.
> After not being on the field for a full year, the trainer said that if we were to trial, we'd earn a high 80's to mid 90's score in protection.
> 
> So much for the "have to be commited to seeing it through" myth, or *else your dog will be forever an out-of-control biting machine with no off switch *. . .


Unless the dog is already an out of control biting machine with no off switch. If that is the case then it should not be doing schutzhund any way.


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## carmspack

many times the clubs fold and disband for lack of enough interested and committed people .


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> many times the clubs fold and disband for lack of enough interested and committed people .


I met with two different clubs and it was the same for both. Unless you were in it to compete they didn't want anything to do with you. This is the main reason that I did not pursue it, I did not feel welcome at all.


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## GatorDog

llombardo said:


> I met with two different clubs and it was the same for both. Unless you were in it to compete they didn't want anything to do with you. This is the main reason that I did not pursue it, I did not feel welcome at all.


I've been personally involved with probably 10 different clubs over the past 5 years and can't say this about a single one. The majority of people in the clubs were hardly hoping for club level titles. It is expected for the members to at least aspire to make some sort of progress, and not just show up to socialize, and I think some people take it the wrong way. Clubs are not for profit, and many people involved as president, vp, training director etc are there on their own time, after work, as a hobby, just like everyone else, with aspirations to train and trial their dogs. When someone comes to a club and says that they don't ever plan on being successful with their dog because it's "just a pet" or whatever, wouldn't it seem like a waste of time for those people involved to focus their only time after their long work week on people who really aren't committed to being successful? Probably less than 5% of the people I train with ever make it past a club field, so when I say "success", I'm not talking about national level dogs here. I just hear this argument a lot and think this could also be considered another myth in the sport. 

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## Colie CVT

I am facing the fact that the trainer I work with has moved up to go to school for a Masters. I was concerned about where I could find someone else to work with. Leia is not a sport dog, so when we worked with the decoy the work was on how she held the bite and where her focus was. The trainer was not concerned about only getting a handful of sessions here and there when he could come down. Leia has the drives, the control and she won't lose it because we aren't working once to a few times a week. 

I think the saying of Schutzhund doesn't make a dog a biting machine but displays the nerves, temperament and strength of the dog itself. To get anywhere the dog has to be stable to start with. Good trainers are the ones who know how to bring the best of the dog out at the right rate. Like someone said you don't start with touching or hitting with a stick right off. It gets introduced when the dog has been doing well with holding and releasing the sleeve. When they are ready for some additional pressure. At least that is what I am getting out of it. 

It is different when the person you fight is just defending themselves or coming at you with everything they have. Everyone has a way they will respond to that type of pressure themselves lol. Think of karate. You aren't going to be more inclined to fight because of it. You have learned how to appropriately keep control of yourself and when it is appropriate youse the skills that you have learned to earn your higher belt. The trainer I worked with was in karate and he used it to explain how the protection phase of these sports is supposed to happen and what the outcome should be. Discipline and confidence. 



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## DaniFani

Here's my guy. He's not quite a year old yet, but he's in ScH training at LEAST twice a week. I'm starting to work as a pet obedience trainer out of my TD's kennel, and he comes with me...so he gets a lot of training time now on top of the SchH.

There are a few bitework pictures mixed in with the pictures of him with my son. I also help out a friend and watch her three year old two days a week. My dog accepted her right into the fold as he does anyone around. He's also around screaming kids at the park constantly. 

He goes everywhere with us, beach, ice cream, walks, hikes, street markets, etc....I can completely trust him out and about. He is pretty much 100% aloof with people he doesn't know. Most of the time they don't even get a glance from him. As you can see in the pics he is always around my son, and yet my son can turn around and say, "YoJo, SIT!" and he plops right into a sit for him lol. He isn't growly, over protective, or anything like that. He's just there, watching and being with US, he doesn't care about much else. Anyone I chat with that approaches just gets a glance, if that. They can approach the stroller, or my son. There isn't any cringyness, growling, over-protective behaviors, just alert and there.

I realize he hasn't met maturity yet, but so far he's everything I asked for. He loves tracking (hoping to get an FH with him someday), has a nice defensive side so far when pushed a little during bitework, flips nicely back into prey, has nice full, hard grips, and he's attentive in obedience. He's also got awesome nerves (sat him directly under a HUGE fireworks show and he couldn't have cared less).

I just got done training the other day with 6 police officers and their K9 partners. Tracking, detection, and article finds (two were dual purpose the others were patrol only). It was great, one guy had a nice new pup (3 years old), that came from the same kennel as my boy's sire, in Germany. Nice dog, he has three kids and trusts that dog around them whole heartedly. All 6 dogs do demos at elementary schools regularly, two of them came SchH titled. So there is an example of dogs working in bitework on the street (two of them with SchH titles), that are trusted around children, the elderly, and joe schmoe stupid public, all the time. 

I have to say, people are SUPER impressed with an obedient dog. Gatordog had an awesome story about taking her SchH female to an AKC ring, and having everyone just in awe at how good her obedience and control was, how attentive and smart the dog was etc....

If anything, I think SchH dogs, out at about, seem to do more good for the breed than not. They are the ones that are well behaved, can be put in a down and STAY in the down, basically handlers are in complete control...dogs aren't fear growling, cowering, lunging on the end of their leash, barking uncontrollably, raising lips at strangers, etc...I've been out with plenty of SchH dogs and other highly obedience trained dogs, people may be the slightest bit of fearful at first. But all it takes is a couple seconds of watching how well behaved they are, and they are usually 100% won over and can't help themselves from saying, "hi."

SchH has always been way more about obedience than anything else to me. Remaining in complete control as the handler, working with the dog as a team, and of course exposing nerves and drives. I think the best thing people can do to dispel any and all biases of any breed is to better train the ones that are out there. A well behaved dog is a good looking dog, period....In my experience, SchH is more about that (very in-control, clear, dog) than the bite.


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## Castlemaid

LOL that last pic! Looks like he thinks the ice-cream is for him! 

Adorable pictures!


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## bill

Great job! Pup looking good Dani" great post they do love the babies. Bill:thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## shepherdmom

lesslis said:


> So much respect and credit to those that so patiently TRY to educate over the years on this forum. You have the patience of saints. I do know some that REALLY want to learn, are reading, working the dogs and are learning. Some will never, don't want to, and will never get it. Too bad for those.


Just because some people don't work their dogs due to distance, monetary, physical health, age or even time constraints doesn't necessarily mean they don't want to learn. 

If IPO is going to be held up as a standard, then I think that educating people and having well published open to the public exhibitions would be important. 

Some people here are very good ambassadors and I thank them for taking the time to answer questions for us "pet homes".


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## bill

Here is my granddaughter" 
playing fetch with her Stahl"
the dog in my avatar! 
She loves him and he gives her kisses. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Vandal

Most clubs have a rule that people who come out must participate in all three phases. That's because so many people show up only wanting to do the protection work and that is not all there is to SchH. So, if you come out and say you have no interest in titling the dog, you are usually going to be asked to prove that you have interest in doing all of the work.

Also, as a helper I can tell you that there is little enjoyment in working a dog just for the sake of working it. It's a lot of work, it requires a lot of skill and therefore people doing it would like to see the dogs they're working advance and earn titles. That is part of the reward for being a helper, at least for me it always has been.


----------



## lhczth

shepherdmom said:


> If IPO is going to be held up as a standard, then I think that educating people and having well published open to the public exhibitions would be important.


 The club I train with in Indy trains on a closed school's football field. Totally open for all to watch and people are more than happy to explain what is going on. 

My old club used to do demos for 4-H groups. We did a demo of obedience and then bitework with Vala. After we were done with the protection the kids came down and got to pet Vala. 

The town of Spencer, IN asked for a SchH demo during one of their local events. Unfortunately it is the same weekend as regionals so the club had to turn them down. 

There are a lot of groups that do these demos. 

There are times, though, when training in public can be a problem. Look at the reactions just looking at videos of the stick hits. It can be worse if you get a reactive furbaby owner who thinks the dogs are being beaten or abused. And, gosh forbid, the dogs are in crates in vehicles on a hot day (of course the vehicles are open, often with fans and the dogs have water).


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## bill

Just wanted to let everyone know " my granddaughter ask me if I told everyone Stahl found her and pop paw when we hide" lol as soon as she learns to right she will be on here. The whole family can have fun training.Bill and Alicia and Stahl

Stahl my boy!


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## bill

And pop paw learns to spell write

Stahl my boy!


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## MustLoveGSDs

Great discussion and insight here. I hope people are marinating in this information and perspectives are being changed.


My sport puppy training with kids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTby7cJaeiI&feature=youtu.be

and outside of training with the same kids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQYxpsXfxdM


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## zetti

Vandal said:


> Most clubs have a rule that people who come out must participate in all three phases. That's because so many people show up only wanting to do the protection work and that is not all there is to SchH. So, if you come out and say you have no interest in titling the dog, you are usually going to be asked to prove that you have interest in doing all of the work.
> 
> Also, as a helper I can tell you that there is little enjoyment in working a dog just for the sake of working it. It's a lot of work, it requires a lot of skill and therefore people doing it would like to see the dogs they're working advance and earn titles. That is part of the reward for being a helper, at least for me it always has been.


The way I learned it is that if you're not working all 3 phases, you're not doing ScH.


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## llombardo

Vandal said:


> Most clubs have a rule that people who come out must participate in all three phases. That's because so many people show up only wanting to do the protection work and that is not all there is to SchH. So, if you come out and say you have no interest in titling the dog, you are usually going to be asked to prove that you have interest in doing all of the work.
> 
> Also, as a helper I can tell you that there is little enjoyment in working a dog just for the sake of working it. It's a lot of work, it requires a lot of skill and therefore people doing it would like to see the dogs they're working advance and earn titles. That is part of the reward for being a helper, at least for me it always has been.


This has been the experience I speak of, they wanted the dogs to compete and get titled. It is hard work and I don't expect them to require anything short of that. They are straight forward about it too, which can make some people not even bother. I don't have enough interest in the sport but I'm glad that someone involved like yourself made this statement.


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## bill

Must love German Shepherds" they do love the kids" and everyone has fun!! Bill:thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## LifeofRiley

DaniFani said:


> Here's my guy. He's not quite a year old yet, but he's in ScH training at LEAST twice a week. I'm starting to work as a pet obedience trainer out of my TD's kennel, and he comes with me...so he gets a lot of training time now on top of the SchH.
> 
> There are a few bitework pictures mixed in with the pictures of him with my son. I also help out a friend and watch her three year old two days a week. My dog accepted her right into the fold as he does anyone around. He's also around screaming kids at the park constantly.
> 
> *He goes everywhere with us, beach, ice cream, walks, hikes, street markets, etc....I can completely trust him out and about. He is pretty much 100% aloof with people he doesn't know.* Most of the time they don't even get a glance from him. As you can see in the pics he is always around my son, and yet my son can turn around and say, "YoJo, SIT!" and he plops right into a sit for him lol. He isn't growly, over protective, or anything like that. He's just there, watching and being with US, he doesn't care about much else. Anyone I chat with that approaches just gets a glance, if that. They can approach the stroller, or my son. There isn't any cringyness, growling, over-protective behaviors, just alert and there.
> 
> I realize he hasn't met maturity yet, but so far he's everything I asked for. He loves tracking (hoping to get an FH with him someday), has a nice defensive side so far when pushed a little during bitework, flips nicely back into prey, has nice full, hard grips, and he's attentive in obedience. He's also got awesome nerves (sat him directly under a HUGE fireworks show and he couldn't have cared less).
> 
> I just got done training the other day with 6 police officers and their K9 partners. Tracking, detection, and article finds (two were dual purpose the others were patrol only). It was great, one guy had a nice new pup (3 years old), that came from the same kennel as my boy's sire, in Germany. Nice dog, he has three kids and trusts that dog around them whole heartedly. All 6 dogs do demos at elementary schools regularly, two of them came SchH titled. So there is an example of dogs working in bitework on the street (two of them with SchH titles), that are trusted around children, the elderly, and joe schmoe stupid public, all the time.
> 
> *I have to say, people are SUPER impressed with an obedient dog.* Gatordog had an awesome story about taking her SchH female to an AKC ring, and having everyone just in awe at how good her obedience and control was, how attentive and smart the dog was etc....
> 
> *If anything, I think SchH dogs, out at about, seem to do more good for the breed than not. They are the ones that are well behaved, can be put in a down and STAY in the down, basically handlers are in complete control...dogs aren't fear growling, cowering, lunging on the end of their leash, barking uncontrollably, raising lips at strangers, etc...I've been out with plenty of SchH dogs and other highly obedience trained dogs, people may be the slightest bit of fearful at first. But all it takes is a couple seconds of watching how well behaved they are, and they are usually 100% won over and can't help themselves from saying, "hi."*
> 
> SchH has always been way more about obedience than anything else to me. Remaining in complete control as the handler, working with the dog as a team, and of course exposing nerves and drives. I think the best thing people can do to dispel any and all biases of any breed is to better train the ones that are out there. A well behaved dog is a good looking dog, period....In my experience, SchH is more about that (very in-control, clear, dog) than the bite.


Hi Dani, it sounds like you have a great dog and are having lots of fun with him... love it! I also love the photos you posted  

Having said that, I want to take a moment to comment on the parts of your post that I bolded – to me, this is the bare minimum expectation I have for any dog I own. I have never trained in SchH, or advanced obedience, but my dogs have always met and exceeded, what I think, should be a given with any dog... i.e. a dog that is able to go anywhere with me without issue or worry about the dog’s behavior. And yes, like you, sometimes I think it is fun to throw a specific obedience command into the mix - especially when I want to entertain kids who have taken an interest in my dog. I also like when random folks come up to learn more about my dog, I have no problem letting them pet him and, of course, agreeing with them about how gorgeous he is…:laugh:. 

But, ultimately, I think that a dog that is able to go out in the world should be the norm, not the exception. In the city, maybe there is some sort of selection bias happening, but most dogs I meet are good dogs that can go anywhere with their owners too without any specialized training.


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## MustLoveGSDs

bill said:


> Must love German Shepherds" they do love the kids" and everyone has fun!! Bill:thumbup:
> 
> Stahl my boy!



There is much education to be done, not just in righting these wrongful stereotypes and negative stigma surrounding the bite sports, but also in molding and bringing up children of future generations to keep the sports alive.


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## onyx'girl

Lucia and I have littermates(Gryffon and Gideon). Their mom "Della" was trained in SDA, IPO and earned more than a few titles...at retirement she was placed into a home where she now helps a disabled adult as her personal service dog. Della chose this girl to be her companion,guardian and is giving her so much joy just in being Della! Her breeding and genetics prove that the GSD can do bitework and be a loving gentle companion.
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/denali.htm


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## JRZ91

Lengthy Post stay with me 

I can say from personal experience that this is somthing that takes tons of obedience and control from the dogs and the handlers. I myself had tons of doubts going out and seeing these VICIOUS dogs about the dangers with them just from looking at pictures of gnarling teeth and drool . 

I was invited out to a club to observe for a day and watch these dogs do all three phases. Didn't even know about the tracking and obedience that took place just thought it was all bite work. Watching these dogs come out of there crates one by one all very excited to track was awesome to see. A couple hours later watching the very precise and excellent obedience was a sight to see. All of that obedience and control all translated over to the protection phase where I had no clue thats how much nerve and control is needed to do this type of work. 

Fast forward to present day. I have been training my dog for almost a year in Sch. If anything I feel it only adds more control and confidence I have with him when we are out and about around people and small children. In addition to training a dog in Sch, I have gone to the other end of the leash and have been doing helper work now for about 7 months. Trust me nothing gives you a more humbling and eye opening experience than being on that end of it. The amount of not only control and obedience the dogs have is a lot of fun to see. Would also like to add the technique on the "stick hits" and "drives" are lots of hard work and coordination so you are doing them properly and not harming the dog, I did lots of running around in an open field driving my "imaginary" dogs to make sure I had a good understanding of it. 

Like others have said, if anything a Sch. trained dog has more tools in their tool belt and have been tested thoroughly to make sure they are SAFE when doing this work.


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## Chris Wild

LifeofRiley said:


> Having said that, I want to take a moment to comment on the parts of your post that I bolded – to me, this is the bare minimum expectation I have for any dog I own. I have never trained in SchH, or advanced obedience, but my dogs have always met and exceeded, what I think, should be a given with any dog... i.e. a dog that is able to go anywhere with me without issue or worry about the dog’s behavior.


That's sort of the point of the thread. Not to say that they are anything unusual or special as far as day to day life goes but rather to illustrate that they are perfectly *normal* dogs. Dogs that are trustworthy, sound, sane, and well mannered in normal every day life situations. Not dogs who have been trained to be Cujo or something that has been genetically programmed for generations to bite with no provocation and must be carefully managed and live in a kennel built like Fort Knox for the safety of humanity that some people profess them to be.


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## lhczth

:thumbup:


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## volcano

Ed Frawley seems like a pretty opinionated guy. I wouldnt generalize anything he says to mean the community agrees with him- other than Michael Ellis being pretty good. Most of the positives about leerburg nowadays are due to Ellis.


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## Chris Wild

We currently have 5 WL GSDs. They live with us as normal house pets, cuddling on the couch, sleeping on the bed, hanging out with us whenever we are home whether we're watching TV or doing yard work. And while they are all high drive, it doesn't take hours upon hours of exercise and training every day for them to settle and be normal dogs.

All participate actively, or did before retirement, in SchH. Two are also titled in SDA, a bit more serious and "real world" for lack of a better term, bite sport. Those same dogs also carry CGCs and TTs and several also have quite a few AKC and UKC obedience and rally titles. Those later things they didn't undergo any specific training or preparation or socialization for, we just went in and did it one day. They had zero problems going from the wide open, relatively unpopulated SchH field into an unfamiliar building crowded shoulder to shoulder with strange people and dogs of every type. Goldens shoving noses up their butts, Cockers jumping on their heads, Pomeranians actually hiding behind them to avoid an angry owner (Yes, all 3 of those actually happened, to 3 different dogs). Sweet little Fluffy and Fido raging in their crates when the GSDs walked by, and they didn't bat an eyelash. They walked into the ring, got their Qs, usually with some sort of placement, including one fancy HIT rosette, and always with lots of compliments from the judge and spectators about how nice it was to "see a good GSD in the ring again".

They have come to work with me on many occasions (frequently enough our office manager kept dog treats in her file cabinet) and spent the day at the office, hanging out and occasionally talking my co-workers into throwing a ball up and down the hall or playing some tug. Sometimes other co-workers have had dogs there as well and they've gotten along just fine. They've stayed in hotels, or in the homes of family and friends when we travel, and have been perfect houseguests. 

They go with us to the pet stores and farm stores and Home Depot. When we go to events at the park, parades, street fairs, farmers markets and to walk around downtown they often accompany us as well. What's interesting is that since we live in the country and aren't really city type personalities, we don't do a lot of those things. It's a fairly rare occurrence. Yet when we go we take a couple dogs along anyway and they are perfectly fine, even amongst the insane crowds at the Ann Arbor Art Fair, despite the fact that they weren't raised in that sort of environment. As youngsters they weren't constantly socialized around huge crowds and doing those things frequently. Like crowded AKC venues, it's pretty foreign to them actually, but they take it all in stride and it doesn't phase them a bit. 

Someone that they do not know who tries to enter the house uninvited will not get in the house unscathed. Someone that they do know is always greeted with wags and licks and being pelted with toys. Total strangers that we welcome into the home are given the same treatment as familiar family and friends. They welcome the neighbors when the young kids from down the road are riding their bikes, see us out with the dogs and make a beeline down our driveway to play ball with the dogs. They even accept the neighbor who always feels the need to stop and talk our ears off if he sees us outside when he's walking one of his Beagles. Heck, they even accept the completely untrained, ill mannered obnoxious Beagles. 

We have overnight house guests a few times a year. Often these are people we don't even know really well who are here to pick up puppies and we offer them a guest room so they don't have to pay for a hotel. Sometimes, like this past spring, we practically turn into a hotel ourselves and our house is literally swarming with people who are complete strangers to the dogs for 2-3 weekends in a row. Sometimes those guests include young kids. On a couple of occasions they have included mentally or physically handicapped people as well. Never once have any of the dogs been anything less than 100% welcoming and social and trustworthy around those guests, even when their home has been invaded by a half dozen strangers for a weekend or there are young kids running all over. The dogs mingle freely with the guests and the only thing that may possibly bother the dogs about all the people being around is that their usual spots on the couches are occupied by humans for a few days. 

Like Art Fair and AKC shows, this is rather unusual to them. This isn't the sort of lifestyle that the dogs were raised with. They're used to a pretty quiet house of just 2 adults and not a lot of visitors. Our young nephews, ages 5 and 9, staying with us for 2 weeks last year was definitely new to the dogs as they weren't raised with kids as we don't have any and we don't live in a neighborhood where they encounter a lot of kids either. But they take it all in stride, no anxiety, no reactivity, and most certainly not so much as a whisker out of place in terms of aggression, and pretty much as far as the dogs are concerned it's an opportunity to take advantage of some extra company, extra belly rubs, extra ball throws and tug games for a while.

They are perfectly normal, stable, trustworthy dogs. When it comes to everyday life, both at home by ourselves, at home with guests, and out and about in any public venue we choose to attend with them, they are easy to live with, easy to manage, a joy to take places and great ambassadors for the GSD breed. As are the vast majority of good, well trained SchH dogs I've known over the years. And I've known quite a few.


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## Chris Wild

Same dog 



















































Same dog 











































Same dog








































These aren't even her puppies... they're her half sister's










Same dog
































Hiking in PA with her litter sister that she hadn't seen since puppyhood...










I can keep going.... lots of dogs being left out... but I think that makes the point......


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## lalachka

Chris, how old were you when you started getting into dogs? Too personal? If so then sorry and ignore


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## lalachka

I'm asking because I'm wondering how old is too late to get into it to get to about where you are. Or put it diff, how many years does it take to learn everything you learned


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## LifeofRiley

Chris Wild said:


> That's sort of the point of the thread. *Not to say that they are anything unusual or special as far as day to day life goes but rather to illustrate that they are perfectly *normal* dogs.* Dogs that are trustworthy, sound, sane, and well mannered in normal every day life situations. Not dogs who have been trained to be Cujo or something that has been genetically programmed for generations to bite with no provocation and must be carefully managed and live in a kennel built like Fort Knox for the safety of humanity that some people profess them to be.


Nice post. And, re:the bolded part - good point


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## robk

Chris those are great pictures!


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## zetti

Great pics, Chris. Sometimes a picture is worth well over 1000 words.

Great posts, too.


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## misslesleedavis1

I got a very hurtful facebook PM about ty recently, i bought him a large tug and took a pic of him playing with it. I recieved a msg stating how sick and twisted i was for teaching him to bite and i should be ashamed of myself because i would be responsible for when he rips the face off a child.
I was disfriended after that, i was really shocked at the sheer stupidity, it left me scratching my head in disbelief, the women who sent it was part of the rescue group i had a falling out with.


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## Chris Wild

LifeofRiley said:


> I’ll take a stab at answering Doc’s question from the vantage point of someone who is not involved in IPO. My guess is based mostly on my understanding of human nature, but is augmented by my observations of folks on this forum who select dogs purely for IPO purposes.
> 
> So, here is my guess… moving from a pass/fail system allowed Schutzhund to become a true dog “sport” in the modern sense of the term… and, it did so to attract more folks to take part in the endeavor. Not necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself.
> 
> But, I would suspect that, just like what happened with “show” dogs, once there is ego/prestige on the line in terms of “winning” a competition, there will be breeders moving towards breeding choices that swing in favor of producing winning dogs with little regard as to whether or not that is what the breed was supposed to be... i.e. breeding toward an extreme that is not beneficial to the breed.


Yes, absolutely this sort of breeding for specialization rather than a well rounded dog can and does happen and sports are not immune to it. This isn't limited to SchH/IPO either, but there are breeders breeding specifically for things like agility as well. So yes, there are some breeders breeding GSDs specifically to score high points in SchH and sometimes the total dog is lost. But my experience is that these are few and far between. Most breeders active in SchH still view it as breed test first, sport second. 

It also happens in areas of work, with breeding programs designed specifically for lower drive dogs with no aggression or protective instinct for use in guide and service dog programs and others breeding dogs that are so sharp and high aggression that they really are only suitable for police/military work. Those sorts of breeding programs are no less specialized than one designed for a specific sport, or for conformation showing, though they are more accepted partly because there are fewer of them and partly because people can more easily understand specialized breeding for work than they can for things like show and sport that are viewed as nothing but human vanity. I would argue that a breeding program geared toward producing dogs with low drive, soft temperaments, undemanding laid back personalities and zero protective instinct for the pet market is also every bit as specialized and therefore equally guilty of ignoring the total dog as is a program geared specifically toward show or sport or a particular form of work.

I also think that by it's very nature, even specialized breeding for SchH is more well rounded than specialized breeding for most other endeavors. After all the dog has to be able to do tracking AND obedience AND protection AND have a temperament sound enough to pass a BH and the impartiality/temperament tests held before every single trial. And truthfully most participants in SchH also want dogs that are normal dogs in every day life as well.

In one of her posts, Lucia also brought up a very good point. The same people who claim that dogs from generations of titled parents who are bred utilizing SchH as a standard of measure are unsafe, uncontrollable monsters who dare not be around children, or out in public, or allowed to do normal dog things will also very often be quick to point out that SchH has been watered down, it's nothing but a game and pattern trained "circus tricks". So which is it? Are these dogs truly vicious man eaters that endanger the public? Or are they nothing but sport dogs going through trained scenarios playing a game? Hard to imagine that they are both, isn't it?


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## lhczth

Another very good post, Chris. This is why I leave this stuff to you and Anne.


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## bill

MustLoveGSDs said:


> There is much education to be done, not just in righting these wrongful stereotypes and negative stigma surrounding the bite sports, but also in molding and bringing up children of future generations to keep the sports alive.


Agree the little ones are the future " glad and proud my granddaughter has the passion like her pop paw"
She will make a great trainer" handler" can't wait to watch her in the ring in the future" she is definitely a animal lover" she is only 3 hope I can see her in the ring one day! Bill:thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## lhczth

Here is Nike again, the one shown a few pages back with my nephew. Here she is being loved on by one of our helpers. 











And doing an escape bite on another. I don't have any photos of her doing suit work or PPD training. 









And more of Vala:
The drive (pressure).









Giving the helper a piece of her mind after the out.









Control (side transport).









And cuddling


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## my boy diesel

so the bottom line is just because a dog is worked in schutzhund does not automatically make it a dangerous biting maniac
that it still can be a wonderful and solid family pet?

so why do some schutzhund people brag about what maniacs their dogs are on here?? do they realize they are giving schutzhund and the dogs that do it a bad name?


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## Chris Wild

onyx'girl said:


> Lucia and I have littermates(Gryffon and Gideon). Their mom "Della" was trained in SDA, IPO and earned more than a few titles...at retirement she was placed into a home where she now helps a disabled adult as her personal service dog. Della chose this girl to be her companion,guardian and is giving her so much joy just in being Della! Her breeding and genetics prove that the GSD can do bitework and be a loving gentle companion.
> (Denali vom Wildhaus)




Della's retirement home got her as a companion. We all knew she'd excel at that. None of us expected that she would become a self initiated caretaker, nor that she would teach herself a variety of service dog tasks. But we really shouldn't be surprised as this is the sort of thing a good GSD is capable of.

Della before retirement and her new career as a SD.



















































And once again, same dog.


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## martemchik

You know…at the end of the day, no one can look at a GSD walking down the street and be 100% sure that the dog is either currently training in Schutzhund or comes from parents that have done Schutzhund. So any kind of theory, or correlation someone thinks exists between IPO and a more dangerous dog, is just not true. In fact, I can guarantee that MORE non-IPO related dogs bite people than IPO related dogs…only because there are way more non-IPO related dogs out there than there are those that are closely related to IPO.

It would definitively be an interesting study to see the difference in % of dogs that are unstable or “not normal” in each category. But until someone comes out with that kind of study, everyone will just speak on their own experience (limited and biased), on which camp is more dangerous than the other. Usually those types of statements are due to an agenda of some sort and are not very objective.

I have personally yet to see a “dangerous” Schutzhund dog because the clubs are extremely good at policing themselves. They don’t really approve of people training dogs that are clearly unstable because the moment that dog makes a mistake, media will pick up on the fact that the dog was trained there, and then the firestorm will come down not just on the sport, but mainly on that club. Most IPO clubs don’t have the power/ability to contest with a strong public outrage against them, and it’s not something they want to deal with. Most are extremely careful about where they train, how they train, the perception they give out, and really don’t like to even make jokes or smart comments about the type of training they do to people that aren’t knowledgeable about it.


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## martemchik

my boy diesel said:


> so why do some schutzhund people brag about what maniacs their dogs are on here?? do they realize they are giving schutzhund and the dogs that do it a bad name?


Because the greatest feeling in the world when it comes to bite sport, is knowing you have an extremely powerful animal that you can easily control. Sure…the hard bite, or the spin around and fly through the air and not let go on the courage test is awesome to watch and everyone loves seeing a dog 4 feet off the ground and not letting go. But I’m sure 99/100 people that do IPO will tell you, the most amazing thing is getting that dog to out mid fight with a single command from 20 yards away. It’s the control, the clear-headedness that the dog shows, and the strength of nerve that is necessary to listen to the handler that’s the most impressive thing.
The brag is that the dog is a maniac on the field, where it's allowed to be. But the moment it leaves the field, its a perfect citizen in the way that society expects it to be.


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## Shade

my boy diesel said:


> so why do some schutzhund people brag about what maniacs their dogs are on here?? do they realize they are giving schutzhund and the dogs that do it a bad name?


Why do people brag about anything? To exhaust something they are proud of

Whether it be a child's report card, finding a item you need on sale, or making a wonderful dinner people are excited by the accomplishment. Citing how much of a 'beast' your dog is of the field is no different then bragging about how fast your agility dog is, or how accurate the nose work is. You are bragging about a specific point you are proud of

At least they's my opinion .


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## lhczth

I have been in GSD for just under 30 years, over 22 years doing SchH/IPO, personal protection and before that AKC obedience. In all of those years, seeing a LOT of GSD, I have known of 2, yes only 2, titled dogs that had unprovoked bites. That percentage compared to the bites by breed nationally is so small to be inconsequential. The other 99.9% of the dogs I have met, trialed and trained with are like the dogs we have been showing in this thread. In the clubs I have belonged to over the years, they are very careful to weed out the weak dogs with unstable temperaments.


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## Chris Wild

my boy diesel said:


> so the bottom line is just because a dog is worked in schutzhund does not automatically make it a dangerous biting maniac
> that it still can be a wonderful and solid family pet?
> 
> so why do some schutzhund people brag about what maniacs their dogs are on here?? do they realize they are giving schutzhund and the dogs that do it a bad name?


I think part of it is that people who have these sort of dogs and do these sort of things truly recognize and appreciate the dichotomy and are proud that their dog can excel in both worlds. But when it comes to bragging, human nature is such that we are more likely to brag about things we view as unusual or that we worked really hard to accomplish moreso than things that we view as normal and ordinary and mundane. 

So a SchH person that has been working for months/years training is going to brag about that great training day, or opportunity to have their dog tested, or wonderful seminar where their dog got kudos by some big name trainer, or success in a trial because those things fall outside the ordinary of regular pet ownership and they worked their butts off to get there and are proud of the accomplishment.

In the same vein, I think the perception from forums such as this is that temperament (and health) problems are more widespread than they are because people only tend to post or have questions when there is a problem, so those are the only things we see. 

Not too many people are making threads on message boards that go like this:
Another day where my dog was a perfect companion.
Another trip to the pet store/vet/park/wherever where my dog was social and well mannered and didn't attack anyone.
Another day where we had a visitor to the house and my dog welcomed them with open paws.
Another day where my dog cuddled with the cat and played with the kids and no one was harmed.
Another day with my perfectly healthy dogs that don't have dysplasia or EPI or DM or allergies or X, Y and Z.
Another 4th of July where my dogs snoozed through fireworks and didn't care that it sounded and smelled like a warzone outside for the past 2 hours.


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## my boy diesel

you may have something there
so one reading the board may get the impression that all schutzhund training and dogs are bad and maniacs 
this is not a fact but a wild speculation based on a few skewed posts

i actually have never seen a post saying something like ' my dog does shutzhund and just yesterday bit the crap out of a baby because he is trained to attack on command'

never seen one like that

with regards to stablity i wonder if it is more on the owner or the dog??
is the dog stable because it has a good owner or is it just a stable dog?


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## Chris Wild

Perhaps. But would someone think the same if we were talking about our kids and bragging about their last martial arts tournament or that great tackle in last week's football game, and assume from that that the kids spent their free time tackling and punching and kicking people?

Genetics create stability. Environment cannot put into, or take out of, a dog something that is not within it's genetic capabilities. The best owner in the world cannot raise a stable dog unless genetics made the dog that way first.


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## Guardyan

Instability in a dog's temperament is a little like a crack in the foundation of a home. You can try to fill in a gap with good socialization, but there will always be an inherent weakness.


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## bill

The dogs owner must be stable also" anyone that doesn't care can make a great dog mean"
any breed any size " I.m.o. that is the problem with a lot of dogs they were made into junkyard dogs with no control"
People that are stable want stable dogs with control" to many thug types that think a mean dog is cool" a mean dog is a joke" a trained dog everyone loves and is something to be proud of " they are a asset not a liability. I truly believe if people knew what a sch. dog really was home owners insurance would be cheaper than someone with just a pet.
J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## simba405

Chris Wild said:


> Genetics create stability. Environment cannot put into, or take out of, a dog something that is not within it's genetic capabilities. The best owner in the world cannot raise a stable dog unless genetics made the dog that way first.


So true. Hard to ruin a good dog.


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## bill

Bad training can ruin any dog if made mean" someone antagonizing the dog" no socialization" teaching too bite no control
Taught too hate people" junkyard dog! A stable dog" needs a good stable owner.
J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## shepherdmom

Genetically stable dogs can be brought back with proper training and socialization. Just look at how far the Olympic Animal Sanctuary dogs have come. I used to think all dogs needed was love and training, then I got a genetically week dog. We are getting there, but it is so much harder. A dog like that would not have survived OAS.


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## bill

Shepherdmom I agree if the dog was not intentionally made vicious" then you would have a very long hill to climb it would take a long time to get the trust and love that the dog may have never seen" not that you couldn't but you must remember the dog was purposefully made mean" after you got the trust you would have a hard time getting him to trust anyone else!
Most times its bad people not the dog. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Castlemaid

Guardyan said:


> Instability in a dog's temperament is a little like a crack in the foundation of a home. You can try to fill in a gap with good socialization, but there will always be an inherent weakness.


Nice!


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## martemchik

bill said:


> Shepherdmom I agree if the dog was not intentionally made vicious" then you would have a very long hill to climb it would take a long time to get the trust and love that the dog may have never seen" not that you couldn't but you must remember the dog was purposefully made mean" after you got the trust you would have a hard time getting him to trust anyone else!
> Most times its bad people not the dog. Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


I'm not 100% sure about dogs purposely made vicious, never really dealt with it...but I do know that even the most abused dogs, if they have good genetics, can be brought back to trust humans fairly quickly. Close breeder friends of mine had to take back 2 of their dogs that were abused, not physically, but things like being chained up and not being fed enough (16 month old female weighed less than 30 lbs). And my current female is from them and she had been e-collar corrected into not taking things from people’s hands and really destroying her prey drive. All three dogs bounced back within a few months of being in stable homes. My female wouldn’t look at a flirt pole rag that hit her in the face or grab a tug toy from a human if her life depended on it…she’s now biting a sleeve and playing tug with the best of them. The other two are in wonderful homes also being trained in IPO and absolutely love people when they are out and about at fairs/parades.

So it just shows that genetics can overcome even the worst of training situations. I think most dogs will tend to go back to their original genetics if they’re taken out of a negative situation that has trained them to go against what their body chemistry tells them to do.


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## bill

A dog with good genetics" 
definitely can be brought back with love and socialization. I'm talking about the type of people that would make a dog mean" a sch. Police dog" p.p.d." are taught the right way with obedience" and socialization" a bad person with a sound dog is dangerous if they make him vicious! Thank goodness that sch. dogs are great" safe members of society"
If only all dogs had owners like sch. Owners " I agree martemchik.... shepherd mom a good dog can be saved just depends on the training how long it will take" unstable dog probably never. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## MustLoveGSDs

bill said:


> Agree the little ones are the future " glad and proud my granddaughter has the passion like her pop paw"
> She will make a great trainer" handler" can't wait to watch her in the ring in the future" she is definitely a animal lover" she is only 3 hope I can see her in the ring one day! Bill:thumbup:
> 
> Stahl my boy!


That's awesome Bill, I'm sure you will


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## LifeofRiley

Chris Wild said:


> In the same vein, I think the perception from forums such as this is that temperament (and health) problems are more widespread than they are because people only tend to post or have questions when there is a problem, so those are the only things we see.
> 
> Not too many people are making threads on message boards that go like this:
> Another day where my dog was a perfect companion.
> Another trip to the pet store/vet/park/wherever where my dog was social and well mannered and didn't attack anyone.
> Another day where we had a visitor to the house and my dog welcomed them with open paws.
> Another day where my dog cuddled with the cat and played with the kids and no one was harmed.
> Another day with my perfectly healthy dogs that don't have dysplasia or EPI or DM or allergies or X, Y and Z.
> Another 4th of July where my dogs snoozed through fireworks and didn't care that it sounded and smelled like a warzone outside for the past 2 hours.



Very true. And, I had a little fun imagining the types of responses they would likely get if they did start a thread like the ones you mentioned.

Here’s what sprang to mind once I got beyond the obvious one of “How nice, sounds like you have a good dog":



That’s great, my dog used to be like that but then… *[insert cautionary tale about the evils of vaccines or dog parks]*
That’s great… oh, you have no idea how few good dogs and good owners there are out there…. Let me tell you a story… *[story may include all or one of the following characters – evil neighbor, stupid/idiot/clueless dog owner, a psychotic doodle, a yappy ankle-biter, a blood-thirsty pit mix]*
That’s great, when I was a kid... *[story that follows will include idyllic accounts of dogs and kids freely romping through the neighborhood together without a care in the world]*
And, last but not least… 

That’s not how a GSD is supposed to behave because a “real” GSD is…. etc., etc. etc. *[at some point during the ensuing debate, the OP will likely be told they should have gotten a Golden Retriever]*
Of course, most threads of the type you referred to would likely just get some views and maybe one or two “good job” comments and before slipping off of the “Active Topics” radar. The OP will feel hurt that more people didn't share in their happiness and think that everyone on this forum must be an elitist snob. :laugh:

Okay, that was my off-topic fun for the day . Feel free to proceed with the regularly scheduled discussion.


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## onyx'girl

my boy diesel said:


> with regards to stablity i wonder if it is more on the owner or the dog??
> is the dog stable because it has a good owner or is it just a stable dog?


I have 3 GSD's only one is "stable"...due to his good breeding. I'm the same owner for all three. 
The other two are managed with care...and limited in what we can do, especially as far as training goes. Put them in close quarters with other dog(as in training class) and they are over threshold.


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## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> I have 3 GSD's only one is "stable"...due to his good breeding. I'm the same owner for all three.
> The other two are managed with care...and limited in what we can do, especially as far as training goes. Put them in close quarters with other dog(as in training class) and they are over threshold.


I have raised many stable shepherds and one I now have one fearful puppy. I don't think it was anything I did.


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## glowingtoadfly

Lol I've heard the Golden line many times.


LifeofRiley said:


> Very true. And, I had a little fun imagining the types of responses they would likely get if they did start a thread like the ones you mentioned.
> 
> Here’s what sprang to mind once I got beyond the obvious one of “How nice, sounds like you have a good dog":
> 
> 
> 
> That’s great, my dog used to be like that but then… *[insert cautionary tale about the evils of vaccines or dog parks]*
> That’s great… oh, you have no idea how few good dogs and good owners there are out there…. Let me tell you a story… *[story may include all or one of the following characters – evil neighbor, stupid/idiot/clueless dog owner, a psychotic doodle, a yappy ankle-biter, a blood-thirsty pit mix]*
> That’s great, when I was a kid... *[story that follows will include idyllic accounts of dogs and kids freely romping through the neighborhood together without a care in the world]*
> And, last but not least…
> 
> That’s not how a GSD is supposed to behave because a “real” GSD is…. etc., etc. etc. *[at some point during the ensuing debate, the OP will likely be told they should have gotten a Golden Retriever]*
> Of course, most threads of the type you referred to would likely just get some views and maybe one or two “good job” comments and before slipping off of the “Active Topics” radar. The OP will feel hurt that more people didn't share in their happiness and think that everyone on this forum must be an elitist snob. :laugh:
> 
> Okay, that was my off-topic fun for the day . Feel free to proceed with the regularly scheduled discussion.


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## Colie CVT

I raise a golden that will go all day and be ready for more, and is a very calm and easy going dude when he needs to be. He's done 15 miles in the wilderness then ready to go where I may go lol. So not all goldens are just couch potatoes.  Granted I also find it interesting that many people who own GSD also own a lab or golden. Must mean something. 

Anyway I found some pictures that have Leia with a child we know (I am lacking in friends with kids) so I could share those.



















Not as impressive as some other dogs out there but she's a good girl.


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## llombardo

I have a very high energy, high ball drive golden also. Neither if my goldens are couch potatoes but the younger one is always ready to go What I have noticed is the younger one has picked up some GSD traits. The older one one was not raised with GSD's, he was older when they came into the picture, but Midnite completely took the younger golden under his wing. The younger golden plays like a GSD and picked up some herding. He is a very happy dog, but can take or leave strangers and doesn't need to meet everyone. He follows me everywhere and won't go with a stranger. I'm sure genetics play a role, but I believe that from being around the GSD's, he acts like one. It's what he has learned.


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## Sabis mom

martemchik said:


> I'm not 100% sure about dogs purposely made vicious, never really dealt with it...but I do know that even the most abused dogs, if they have good genetics, can be brought back to trust humans fairly quickly. Close breeder friends of mine had to take back 2 of their dogs that were abused, not physically, but things like being chained up and not being fed enough (16 month old female weighed less than 30 lbs). And my current female is from them and she had been e-collar corrected into not taking things from people’s hands and really destroying her prey drive. All three dogs bounced back within a few months of being in stable homes. My female wouldn’t look at a flirt pole rag that hit her in the face or grab a tug toy from a human if her life depended on it…she’s now biting a sleeve and playing tug with the best of them. The other two are in wonderful homes also being trained in IPO and absolutely love people when they are out and about at fairs/parades.
> 
> So it just shows that genetics can overcome even the worst of training situations. I think most dogs will tend to go back to their original genetics if they’re taken out of a negative situation that has trained them to go against what their body chemistry tells them to do.


Gotta disagree a bit. Bud was sold as an 8 week old pup to what was later found to be a rotten home-shock, shock, people lie. We finally found out what was going on and his breeder exercised his right to reclaim the dog. Bud was 11 months old and a mess. He had been starved, beaten, neglected, attacked by other dogs, kicked, shot, sprayed with water, left outside with no shelter and finally run over with a quad. My boss wanted to have him PTS, I wanted to save him. I was given a 2 week test, improve something or put him down. I won. It was a long hard road to get him back and 11 years later I am very, very careful about who gets near him. I tended his injuries and spent countless hours sitting beside his crate talking. My husband went the stomach route, chicken, steak, venison. He made sure every time Bud saw him something yummy was given. He is amazing, cuddly and obedient with his family but he is only around certain guests and only supervised. 
So no, genetics will not always save them. However, with poor genetics I wouldn't have gotten him this far.
Oddly, he isn't dog aggressive.


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## bill

Davis mom that is what I was talking about" a long hill to climb!! Bill:thumbup:

Stahl my boy!


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## bill

Sabis

Stahl my boy!


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## Chris Wild

I just cleaned out the SD card on the camera and couldn't resist posting these as they seem to go nicely with this recent thread. 

We'll call this Myth#1a.. that SchH dogs are not only biting machines against people, but are also too aggressive and high drive to be safe around other animals or to have living in the house as relaxed companions.

A couple of the girls helping me with chores at the barn.



















































And a typical evening at home watching TV with a pack of high drive SchH trained working line dogs.


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## Courtney

I would be right at home in that last pic with everyone chilling out


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## DobbyDad

In two of those photos I think the dog is using a ball to try to lure the chickens in because schH dogs are not only aggressive but also smart.


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