# New Guy Here & No petting?



## Boomba (Sep 11, 2012)

Love this site! Picked up my Sable GSD about 10 days ago and he's awesome. My boy is about 10 weeks and when I went to the pet store some kids and others were trying to pet him - I told them to no and I picked up my pup and turned away.

The parents looked at me like I committed some crime. I said, "If the dog bites your kid then 'you' sue me." Response, "Well it's just a puppy and they wanted to pet him." My response, "It's not a circus animal and if they want to pet a puppy - go buy them one."

I don't know these people and my boy is a bit of a nipper and I don't want him to accept every person he sees. Anyone else feel this way?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Welcome, and absolutely. You choose who your dog interacts with. He's not some toy for everyone's entertainment.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I agree that your pup isnt public entertainment, but I hope you werent rude or short with the kids.....they are just kids.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I completely understand especially when they are so young and some pups are nippy when they start teething. Kids can be so dramatic too if the dog nips at them and they start crying and acting like he took their arm off or something.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*One or the other*

Well, as he gets older you will experience the "petter" and the "Oh my God a killer!" Just goes with the territory. Good luck, have fun and don't teach him to juggle while standing on a large ball.


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## Boomba (Sep 11, 2012)

PatchonGSD said:


> I agree that your pup isnt public entertainment, but I hope you werent rude or short with the kids.....they are just kids.


Absolutely not... I was very kind and explained that he was just a pup and liked to nip. That didn't work and they still went after him so I picked him up. Children are just like pups, they're experiencing the world and I gave them the utmost respect. It was more of the parents' reaction.


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## Moxy (Aug 3, 2012)

DWP said:


> Well, as he gets older you will experience the "petter" and the "Oh my God a killer!" Just goes with the territory. Good luck, have fun and don't teach him to juggle while standing on a large ball.


I couldn't help but burst out laughing at this image. Lol

You aren't the only one. No one seems to train their kids on the appropriate way to approach dogs anymore. It's like everyone bypassed the owner and goes straight for the dog without even asking questions.

It really doesn't get much better. Might want to invest in an "In Training" vest.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I understand the need to protect out dogs, but if you want to take your dog out into public and be a good representation to the breed, you're gonna have to socialize him to things like this. You're right, if he bites someone they could sue you, but if he's not use to this situation then you run a greater risk of that happening as he gets older IMO because he's not use to it.

I see no reason to be mean or rude about it, you have a PUPPY, what did you think was going to happen when you went out into public? lol.

I'd be more concerned about having a puppy out that hasn't had all his shots yet.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I hope you weren't rude to the kids.

I can understand the needing to not have your training interrupted, but remember too, socializing your dog with kids is really important. Perhaps the thing to do it teach the children to ask if they can pet your puppy and wait until you have him settled before they swoop in.

I wish I'd had more opportunities for my pup to meet kids, she's a bit weary of them.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Since you dont want any strangers touching your dog:

You can always tell them, 
"Sorry, not today, he's in training. Maybe next time"...
That way no one has hurt feelings and you're happy as well ? 
JMO


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## Maggies Dad (Aug 15, 2012)

I addressed this same issue and the board suggested getting a *“Training Do Not Pet”* vest.

After yesterday’s episode of trying to get Maggie out to use the bathroom (she already has a nervous "Puppy" bladder in the first place) and being bombarded with “Good Intentions” I’ve decided my best chance of getting her trained to be socialized without being a total maniac is to just stand my ground and tell people NO but thank you anyways.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

At ten weeks Beau would have been in the cart anyway. Did not do too much Petsmart but I always figured it was a good thing and controlled the interaction. I think your response could have been softer. YOU take a puppy places and everyone wants to pet it. I am not going to let strange dogs meet a puppy...but kids, one at a time, yes. Beau is one now and loves kids and is very gentle with them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how much longer are you going to pick up your pup and walk away -- this would have been an ideal moment to teach the pup some self control . When I am out with my dogs , and I see someone looking with interest I ask them "would you like to see the pup" then get down on a knee , control the dog - put into a sit , hold the collar and let the person pat the dog , at the same time teaching them how to do so.
You can not control the public . You have to control the dog. When out socializing one time I went with a friend , who was put in charge of one of my dogs. We started at the U of T campus then into Kensington Market which is wild with random busy pedestrian traffic. At one intersection , with sidewalks crowded on both sides , we stopped for the light . Dogs sitting nicely at side. Then a little girl about 4 I guess throws herself in a bear hug on the back of my male Simon . He looked around , "oh hi" ,and that was the extent of that . He was about a year old at the time, just before I offered him for police service along with is contemporary "Strike" . Following week he got the evaluation including aggression with threat (not play prey) was approved - but I changed my mind on him and kept him - Strike went on to Kawartha Lakes / Lindsay.

Now is the time for attitude adjustment , while young , otherwise you will end up with a dog who will be more bother than its worth when it comes to taking out and so he sits at home.

other point you were in a public space where it is a privilege to bring in a pet , a pet store . You can't be in there putting customers off and impacting on the business of the store.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I trained Holly from day one out in public to do "Hi" when people approached and wanted to ask questions or pet her. If adults or kids wanted to pet her I would tell them to wait a second, told Holly to sit and then have the kids/adult approach her. I would then say "hi" to Holly and she would put up her paw and shake hands. She still does this now at almost 2 years old, don't even have to tell her sit or "hi" , she automatically sits and puts her paw up when approached by anyone coming to see her.
Gave her something to think about as a baby and now does it as an adult.
And yes, I know, she is a GSD, supposed to be wary of strangers, not a Golden Retriever, yadda yadda. 
However, I know she won't bite in public and at home she does bark when someone comes in the yard, whether by auto or on foot. She does exactly what I wanted her to do.
works for me.


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## AJT (Jun 20, 2012)

Boomba said:


> Love this site! Picked up my Sable GSD about 10 days ago and he's awesome. My boy is about 10 weeks and when I went to the pet store some kids and others were trying to pet him - I told them to no and I picked up my pup and turned away.
> 
> The parents looked at me like I committed some crime. I said, "If the dog bites your kid then 'you' sue me." Response, "Well it's just a puppy and they wanted to pet him." My response, "It's not a circus animal and if they want to pet a puppy - go buy them one."
> 
> I don't know these people and my boy is a bit of a nipper and I don't want him to accept every person he sees. Anyone else feel this way?


I think you are well within your rights to decide who your pup should come in contact with. If you tell the parents and kids that the pup is in training and you need him to focus, you should be fine. 

For me personally, having had a dog aggressive and at times people aggressive chocolate lab and not being able to take him anywhere (hiking, public places, doggy beaches, etc), I am now taking my GSD puppy everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE. I rather have her be introduced to all types of people as well as dogs and have different positive experiences in different environments at a young age (before a year to year and half old) so she is very well socialized. I want her to know that the world is generally good and when something "bad" is admist, she'll sense something is off. 

I don't foresee a number of people trying to ambush me to pet her when she is older and very rarely do kids come up to me now since my puppy is now 6 months old (50lbs and 23"). And those that do, or parents who have asked tended to be those who have had large breed dogs. They usually have the good sense to ask permission. 

I'm barely 5'5" and quite lean, so I want/need a really well behaved, socialized dog (at the very least people friendly). I am an active person in her 20s that frequently heads out and I bring my dog along. Whether that is to grab a bite to eat outdoors to hiking in the mountains (if she could only rock climb!!) or running on the beach. I work in NYC and am allowed to bring my dog to work so walking through a place like Timesquare...I need her to keep her cool and be composed. That usually comes with her being happy and comfortable in all situations. I attribute that to having exposure and probably the temperament she inherited from her parents. 

I trust her that if something is up, she'll alert me. Unlike my lab, where EVERYTHING was a red flag. Love that lab to death, but man I couldn't bring him anywhere.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I took my pup out all the time. His nerves are good, but still, I want a dog I can take anywhere any time. Definitely teach the children how to pet your dog, but at this age, it won't hurt your dog to be petted by kids. As he grows up, he will recognize the difference between children and adults, so teaching him how to behave around children is very important. As stated above, you can always control your dog, but other people's children often act impulsively and improperly. 

Last spring at a baseball game I had an 7 or 8 year old girl run over to Rocket and start hugging him and pulling at his ears and lips hard. I was shocked for a minute and there was no parent in sight. I finally found my voice, but she ignored me--and Rocket's reaction? Nothing. He just sat there and took it with nary a sound or move. Nerves and genetics? Likely. But also the result of months of exposure, and exposure as a wee pup.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

GSDolch said:


> I understand the need to protect out dogs, but if you want to take your dog out into public and be a good representation to the breed, you're gonna have to socialize him to things like this. You're right, if he bites someone they could sue you, but if he's not use to this situation then you run a greater risk of that happening as he gets older IMO because he's not use to it.
> 
> I see no reason to be mean or rude about it, you have a PUPPY, what did you think was going to happen when you went out into public? lol.


I'm with GSDolch, you do want you puppy to interact and like kids. They act very different from adults and doing the necessary socialization for our pup should INCLUDE children.

Let me tell you, I had a dog that didn't like little boys and it was a nightmare to manage that as my dog got older. I didn't get him until he was 9 months old and no one ever told me about 'socialization' so by the time my family realized it was an issue, it was a lifetime issue.

So if you don't want people/kids to come up to pet your puppy you need to not go out in public. One of the BEST things about a GSD puppy and the ease of socialization is because they are still so cute and people will volunteer to HELP YOU GET A NORMAL DOG. As our pups get older they are more intimidating and the volunteers may get harder to find.

But if you want to have a normal and wonderful adult dog, you need to go out in public to socialize and get your puppy to be a happy stable puppy in every environment. 

A HUGE PROBLEM with our breed occurs when we fail to do all the necessary socialization during the first year. You can't go back either, once you miss the stages. 

We WANT a happy friendly puppy. We WANT them to think the world is a wonderful place full of wonderful thing and my owner will lead me thru this wonderful place. This is done by exposing them to everything.

You see this yet (and feel free to add your pictures)

click this ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...t-photos-videos-puppies-being-socialized.html

aw:


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Yes, I understand your reaction. We live in a very litigious society - we have a small business and have been sued,and just because you own a business (no matter how small) people think you have $$$. We've also conditioned a lot of people to think "it's for the children, everything for the children" so there is no impulse control. When we got our pup, I'm so glad my daughter was old enough to be out of public school. She had so many little bruises from mouthing on her arm, I'm sure if she was in school CPS would have been called.

When I go to the pet store, I want to focus on what I am trying to buy, not have to worry about who will be running up to me. A few months ago, there were kids racing (being encouraged by their parent) in PetSmart. I called over an employee and told them how dangerous it was, not only could they knock down one of the more frail, elderly people, but elicit a protective reaction from one of the dogs. Fortunately, in my area, it seems that most parents have educated their kids to ask first if they can pet your dog. When your dog gets older, most parents will pull their kids away from you anyway.

Hopefully you will find some older children, family or neighbors you can spend some time with and trust so that your dog can be socialized with all kinds of people. And I would allow adults at the pet store to pet your dog before it goes into the adolescent stage, if you have time for that.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Although I am selective about who pets my dog, sometimes you can't avoid the circle of children. I normally "pick" the nice polite ones who ask to pet my dog. Lakota is 2-1/2 now and doesnt get to see many children. We went to a small country fair this weekend and she was great with the little ones even though some were not on the select list. I prefer my dog to be able to handle that kind of situation in public. I've already been on the side of unsocialized dogs and much prefer to not have to worry about what my dog is going to do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You can not control the public . You have to control the dog


:thumbup:
I don't even try to keep folks from petting my dog. If I felt he was a bite risk (I don't) I wouldn't bring him places so crowded that people rush up to pet him and especially kids.

If kids approach my dog, I look first for the parent, and then enlist their help, or, if the kid asked to pet, tell them, "That is GOOD to ask always before petting dogs!"
Then kneel down and get down with the dog and the kids and supervise the interactions.

It's good for the kids and the dog - a win-win situation and the parents enjoy that someone's taking time with their kids, as a rule.

Also by my kneeling down and either holding one of the dogs (a small adult dog) or holding onto Ruger, it sends the message to the dog that it's okay to have this activity going on


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> I understand the need to protect out dogs, but if you want to take your dog out into public and be a good representation to the breed, you're gonna have to socialize him to things like this.
> 
> 
> Diasgree with the first statement....you do not have to let strangers pet your dog in public to be a good representation. My dog is perfect in public and you can squeeze by me in an aisle and your leg rub against him because we are so close and he has no problem. But try to pet his head and he will walk away. Any time I see one of those "I HAVE to pet EVERY dog in the world" people, (and I can spot them from a mile away), I step between them and my dog before they can run and grab his face and try to kiss him.
> ...


...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is the public perception of the breed, which is not good for the large part. We have had people on the forum experience difficulty to outright denial of rental accommodation and then there is insurance.

okay so that covers it for the breed.

the other thing is the public perception of OWNERs of the breed -- the dog and you need to be on the neutral - friend tolerant -- especially in a venue like a PetSmart where the contrast is sharper when you have golden doodles with superfriendly owners that make any attention invited and desireable.

all the dogs that I have put in to service must be social.
it is very important to teach the young dog what the normal world looks like - better judgements and better "reads"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I figure the other thing is you are teaching the kids (and their parents indirectly) how to approach a strange dog. When a child asks me, I say - "I am fine with that but ask your parent first" as they are standing right there; if there parent is not there I say no, and tell the child they should not ask strangers to pet their dogs without mom or dad being there.

I then proceed to show them not to hover over the dog or hug the dog. My dogs could all take that but a lot can't. It is a great op for doggie obedience. Now at 10 weeks, yes..take some treats and you can control the little nipper dog. Be prepared!

Each kid we reach that way may wind up NOT being the idiot with the flexi lead 20 years from now!!!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Correct, your dog, your rules.

Sometimes I stop and let people/kids pet my boy, sometimes I don't. 

But it's always a polite no, not right now, thanks for asking


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I couldn't agree more with Carmen on this one. As a GSD owner, you are just as much a representative to the breed as the dog itself. I don't want to have to squeeze between my dog and an oncoming, overbearing person. I want my dog to be balanced, well behaved, and social. While I don't require my dog to sit in order for people to greet her, I do also ask such people "would you like to pet my dog?" Geez, quite honestly if people even _look_ at my dog I ask them that. Pimg has been pet by countless people in countless situations. I consider such socialization of immense importance as it sets the stage for the public opinion of my breed of choice.

When I got to play with the Superdogs, after the show Pimg was swarmed with hands!! Kids all over the place! Hugging, petting, tail, ears, face, body- everything. It's a foundation in socialization that allowed all of those kids the opportunity to see a German Shepherd up close and personal.

Now is the time to do such training with your dog. Now is the time to work on both _yourself_ and your dog to become an ambassador for the breed. I would like to think that it looks something like this:

(skip to 4:27 for the socialization part)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with Carmen too. This is the kind of GSD I want, a constant companion that goes everywhere with me. Hopefully one to share with others through the Therapy Dog program, if things go as planned.

But, I can also see that some people don't want that. Maybe they have another outlet that they want to pursure with their GSD. But really, to take a puppy into a pet store and not expect attention? A puppy is a people magnet, nothing less, lol!

The worst thing is when owners don't want the attention at this age, and then when the novelty of having a dog wears off, they leave the dog alone all the time to be miserable, and say it's the dog's fault because it acts so badly in public. Just don't be one of those people, please!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

100% wildo , I have had a few dogs with SuperDogs , the latest was Keyster -- I have had dogs do public relations for Canine Vision Canada , and being a full operational police dog capable of doing public relations , Toronto, Lindsay, all over is nothing but good for public support when it comes to getting funds, continuation of a program, and as a balancer for the odd dog that does a "bad" bite - 

The dog need not, should not make overatures for attention but should be kindly tolerant , (neutral) in receiving attention.

Now DOGS -- that is an entirely different matter . They don't need close nose to nose contact , or physical contact. I have had people with an obviously hostile dog let unravel on the flexi-lead with an "he's okay - just wants to visit" -- to which I firmly say - no he's not , control your dog -


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah that's right "Maybe they have another outlet that they want to pursure with their GSD. " but no matter what the outlet they want to pursue , being a stable dog well socialized with self control can only be for the good. Yeah see all the "big bad ass" GSD's at the trials - then they fail because they won't out or some other issue

xxxxxx that didn't come out right -- some people just want their dog to be the B B A gsd , often times misinterpreting fear aggression as strength.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

It is your dog, so you certainly don't have to let people pet him. But I loved having kids pet my puppy. The neighbor kids like to come to give him treats, and he seems pretty good with kids.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

When my male was a pup, I socialized him a LOT. I let adults and children pet him (with me right there, of course!). I even taught him to lay down when toddlers or very small children came up to him. This is my plan with Grim, too. Now when he became an adult? Not so many kids wanted to pet him anymore. Adults, either. With Grim I expect even more so. An adult GSD not being petted by strangers is OK with me. However, there is that precious time when they're pups when I think they need this. They need to be able to tell a true threat from the 'normal' interactions out there in the world. They also need to be stable and able to be touched if you're going to do nearly any type of sport. If you start out right from the beginning never letting anyone touch your dog that's your right.. but I fear you may have some unintended consequences for it down the road.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If you want a well adjusted, social dog, he needs to be used to being petted by people of every age, size, and appearance, while he's young and doesn't mind. Snatching your pup up and away from kids and other people is not only rude and poor public relations, but teaches your pup that there's something scary about them, possibly promoting an aggressive dog in the future.

You have a puppy. People are going to want to pet him. This is a GOOD thing. You should be fully capable of properly restraining your pup while people pet him which also teaches your pup good manners of not jumping up or biting. You want your pup to grow up and have no issues with strangers touching him. This applies at the vet, at dog school, at dog events, and in public.

If you want your pup to grow up and be a safe dog in public, get over this and let people pet him.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

In a nutshell:
It is much easier to socialize a puppy from the begining than to spend countless hours on the internet, reading books and trying to figure out how to make your older dog safe in public.
Trust me it is a wonderful feeling to be able to go anywhere with your dog and not have to worry about "what if".


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What I did was carry treats to have him focused on those and associate being petted with good things -- as well as keeping his teeth occupied


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I think you're good to choose how you want to raise the dog. For me, I took my puppy purposely out and about to have others pet her. I enjoy seeing how enjoyable it is for her. Sometimes I had to stop A LOT when walking her so that everyone that wants to pet her can pet her or have a shorter walk because of all the stops. She loves the people attention, especially little kids. She also can tell when someone is interested in her, she'll move towards them. I have been fortunate enough to meet kids that are well behaved. She also magically knows to sit for petting and will lick little kids passionately... maybe that was why she loved them, because they are at just the right licking height. 

I'm glad I did that because now I don't have little kids wanting to do that much anymore and my dog has become weary of little boys. I don't know why but hope that all the interaction she had in the past helped her to not become even more weary of them. 

This puppy stage will pass soon and you'd enter into the stage where not as many people will want to pet your dog and have different attitudes or energy towards it. At that time, there'd be less opportunity for your dog to be exposed to that kind of social interaction to proof her for those situations. Maybe that's what you prefer, but just a thought.


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## Rainer (Feb 15, 2012)

When Rainer was younger I used to take him out and let him meet tons of new people and have as many interactions as possible with children. A week or two ago, we were walking in the park with our friends (human and dog) and a young couple with a child that couldn't be more than 1.5-2 years old stopped to meet all the dogs. They tried to keep the toddler around the smallest dog, a mini dachsund, but also held him up to pet our biggest member, a great dane (all the dogs are thankfully very well behaved in public). As they were leaving, they put the toddler down and he immediately made a u-turn and ran (more like wobbled, lol) right into Rainer's face and held his face before his mother could catch him. Rainer barely bat an eye and just took it - granted, the situation could have ended differently, but, along with being a pretty solid puppy in general, part of that is also the socialization I did with him. He's about 9.5 months now - always been a naturally people-neutral puppy with strangers.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Isn't it sad that the reason OP doesn't want his dog petted is for fear of lawsuit rather than fear of some sort of developmental problem that could arise from it. Do you really believe someone will sue you if your 10 week old puppy nips their kid? And this is in a pet store...if you can't control your puppy nipping at people at 10 weeks old...what are you going to do when its 10 months old?

By picking your dog up you are teaching it that other people are bad, this is exactly what happens with little dogs and why they get aggressive. The dog barks at something bigger than it, the bigger dog goes to investigate, the owner picks up the little dog for safety, the dog learns "if I bark and this big thing comes at me, my owner will save me," and continues to do it.

Worry more about your dogs development and less about getting sued. Trust me, no one in their right mind would sue for that, and no lawyer would ever take that into a courtroom, the judge will laugh and throw that lawsuit out in seconds. If you plan on taking your dog in public understand that people will want to pet it, in 12 months no one will want to touch your dog, and at the rate you're going you won't even be able to take him into a store in the first place.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Isn't it sad that the reason OP doesn't want his dog petted is for fear of lawsuit rather than fear of some sort of developmental problem that could arise from it. Do you really believe someone will sue you if your 10 week old puppy nips their kid? And this is in a pet store...if you can't control your puppy nipping at people at 10 weeks old...what are you going to do when its 10 months old?
> 
> By picking your dog up you are teaching it that other people are bad, this is exactly what happens with little dogs and why they get aggressive. The dog barks at something bigger than it, the bigger dog goes to investigate, the owner picks up the little dog for safety, the dog learns "if I bark and this big thing comes at me, my owner will save me," and continues to do it.
> 
> Worry more about your dogs development and less about getting sued. Trust me, no one in their right mind would sue for that, and no lawyer would ever take that into a courtroom, the judge will laugh and throw that lawsuit out in seconds. If you plan on taking your dog in public understand that people will want to pet it, in 12 months no one will want to touch your dog, and at the rate you're going you won't even be able to take him into a store in the first place.


Take it from someone who has been sued - judges are not always reasonable, and you can always find a lawyer, you may need to call about 10 of them, but believe me, you will find one who will be happy to sue. OP has a legitimate and real fear.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

I agree with GSDolch, carmspack, and Maggie. You missed a great opportunity for the dog, yourself, and the kids.

The dog needs socialization, especially with kids. Tell the parents that she's a nippy pup, and ask if it is ok still for the kids to pet. If they are agreeable, control the pup even if you have to hold her snout so she doesn't bite the kids. Praise and reward the pup for allowing the contact. Instruct the kids on the proper way to pet, don't be afraid to tell them to calm down, etc. Most kids and parents in a pet store are cooperative and thankful for the lesson and dog contact. You will look like a great, nice guy to all concerned. Pup learns that kids are fun and it shouldn't nip them. Everyone wins.

Yes, you ultimately control who has contact with your dog. Proving that point at every encounter, however, is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

And one more thing: This business about being sued. This excuse is WAY overblown. I've been a personal injury lawyer for over 25 years. Never have I seen a dog bite case over a pup nipping a kid. No lawyer will take that case because there are no damages--the kid gets a bandaid and a lollipop and it is over. Yes, a dog attack, or a severe laceration, will result in a lawsuit, but usually that can be settled by two reasonable people before suit by just paying some medical bills. 

The one SURE way to get sued is raising a dangerous, unsocialized dog who has been raised since he was a pup to believe that all strangers were dangerous things. That one will eventually bite and do some lawsuit-worthy harm.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been taking my now 1 year old GSD to the pet store and anywhere else I could to interact with all kinds of people and dogs since she was 12 weeks. I have never told a child no when they approached. I do make my dog sit if she wants to get any kind of attention. As she got older, kids ran up to her(this happens all the time) and she responds by sitting down and giving them a kiss. Adults on the other hand will go out of there way to avoid her. I would much rather have a socialized well balanced dog, then one that I can't take anywhere. I also think that if you take a puppy to a public place..like a pet store, people will approach you no matter what. So if that is not what you are looking for, then the dog should stay home, because like someone else said, how long are you going to be able to pick the dog up?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> Take it from someone who has been sued - judges are not always reasonable, and you can always find a lawyer, you may need to call about 10 of them, but believe me, you will find one who will be happy to sue. OP has a legitimate and real fear.


Also, many times you are still robbed because your lawyer will tell you it is much cheaper to settle than go to court.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

YOU CAN'T SUE WITHOUT DAMAGES!!! Like billsharp said, there will be a bandaid and blood...are you going to hire a lawyer and pay thousands in legal fees in order to collect for the cost of a bandaid? Good luck proving that a little cut caused a child thousands of dollars in emotional distress...did you get sued for your puppy nipping a little child or was it something else (don't answer). People like to make connections between lawsuits that they think are unreasonable, but this one would never go through anywhere. Not even small claims court. So it's an irrational fear of getting sued over a puppy nipping in a petstore. There are reasonable expectations of this and therefore no basis for a lawsuit.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> YOU CAN'T SUE WITHOUT DAMAGES!!! Like billsharp said, there will be a bandaid and blood...are you going to hire a lawyer and pay thousands in legal fees in order to collect for the cost of a bandaid? Good luck proving that a little cut caused a child thousands of dollars in emotional distress...did you get sued for your puppy nipping a little child or was it something else (don't answer). People like to make connections between lawsuits that they think are unreasonable, but this one would never go through anywhere. Not even small claims court. So it's an irrational fear of getting sued over a puppy nipping in a petstore. There are reasonable expectations of this and therefore no basis for a lawsuit.


More importantly(as mentioned) the liability rises as the dog gets bigger without any socialization. That is when the OP needs to be worried.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

At 10 weeks of age, I agree with others, now is the perfect age for him to get used to kids. Petsmart would probably not be my best choice (to young to be hanging out in a store with god knows what floating around at this age),,but you can find a few good kids out there, and give not only an education to the kids on how to interact with puppies, but the puppy an education as well. 

Everybody LOVES a puppy, I find more people are attracted to puppies than when they are adults.. Anyhow, good way to educate on both sides


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Boomba said:


> My boy is about 10 weeks and when I went to the pet store some kids and others were trying to pet him - I told them to no and I picked up my pup and turned away.


I want my puppy to meet lots and lots of people at that age. Unless the kids know how to approach and interact with a puppy I wouldn't necessarily let them meet my puppy, but I also wouldn't pick it up and turn away either. I would want kids (or their parents) to ask me if it's okay first, and I have told kids before that they should always ask before meeting a strange dog because they don't know if it's friendly or not. I wouldn't be so concerned about that with a puppy, but it's a good teaching moment anyway, both for the kids and for the parents so I usually speak up.



> I don't know these people and my boy is a bit of a nipper and I don't want him to accept every person he sees. Anyone else feel this way?


Halo was a bit of a nipper too, she would give big slurpy kisses from chin to forehead, but sometimes there were teeth involved! With her I would let her interact with older kids, who would follow instructions, and I'd keep it brief. Kids who were running around shrieking were a definite no, and with toddlers I would just tell the parents that she wasn't gentle enough for little kids. But just because a puppy likes kids or even people, you don't need to be concerned that she will become a social butterfly when she matures.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I might want to add that not socializing or desensitizing the puppy at an early stage of it's life, due to you not wanting it to to be friendly to strangers is not going to determine it's ability as a protective dog. It may actually hinder it.

That was kinda rambly, did that make sense? 
If you tense up, pick up the puppy and turn away...it may think that being startled or nervous around strangers in a foreign environment is rewarded by being picked up and possibly petted. 
You'd be surprised what that little pup is picking up on coming from you. It's amazing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I take my dogs out in public(seldom do I do this) I want them to be neutral at best and tolerate people moving around them. If someone asks to pet, I let them know that my dogs are not real hep on people they don't know touching them. If my dogs make the first move, they are better with people they don't know touching or 'petting' them. 
I really don't understand people who ask to pet a strange dog. I don't do this, and when I do interact with a dog I don't know, will go up sideways and just stand neutral...if the dog chooses to approach fine, if not, no biggie.
I wish there would be a curriculum in 1-2 grade to teach kids how to/not to approach and how to 'read' a dogs body language. It would bring bite stats down if kids knew better.

As far as pup/socializing...it all depends on the genetics and how the pup is socialized. Some situations can be bad due to bad handling or whatever, so best to know the right way from the get go so fixing isn't going to be an issue. If a dog gets over their threshold and the handler doesn't recognize it, it will be a challenge to keep on trying when a dog starts reacting or balking.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Wow, just ran across this Leerburg article. It seems very relevant to this discussion.

Leerburg | Socializing Puppies


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i wouldn't take my 10 week old pup to a pet store.
my dog had his 3rd round of shots before we visited pet
stores. i let people pet my pup because i wanted a friendly
dog who wasn't going to be nervous or reactive around strangers.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if people took the time to socialize and train around children
i think the bite stats would be lower.



onyx'girl said:


> When I take my dogs out in public(seldom do I do this) I want them to be neutral at best and tolerate people moving around them. If someone asks to pet, I let them know that my dogs are not real hep on people they don't know touching them. If my dogs make the first move, they are better with people they don't know touching or 'petting' them.
> I really don't understand people who ask to pet a strange dog. I don't do this, and when I do interact with a dog I don't know, will go up sideways and just stand neutral...if the dog chooses to approach fine, if not, no biggie.
> 
> >>>> I wish there would be a curriculum in 1-2 grade to teach kids how to/not to approach and how to 'read' a dogs body language. It would bring bite stats down if kids knew better.<<<<
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jo Ellen said:


> Wow, just ran across this Leerburg article. It seems very relevant to this discussion. Leerburg | Socializing Puppies


Wow...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kids need to know how to approach a dog. The dog gets blamed when a child rushes up to hug. I agree, dogs need to be around kids but kids need to learn to respect a dog as well.
And herding breeds are keen on chasing/tagging running kids. Instinctive behavior=bite stats as sad as that is.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

Jo Ellen said:


> Wow, just ran across this Leerburg article. It seems very relevant to this discussion.
> 
> Leerburg | Socializing Puppies


Interesting. It certainly is counter to what the majority of people have posted here.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I wish there would be a curriculum in 1-2 grade to teach kids how to/not to approach and how to 'read' a dogs body language. It would bring bite stats down if kids knew better.


I have taught a class to elementary school children for the last 8 years on exactly this. First with my yellow lab, and now with Rocket. 

As for the Leerburg article, I disagree with some of his points. For example, the statement that a pup or dog that gets attacked will be dog aggressive. All of my dogs have actually been attacked, and none of them ever turned out that way. Rocket was actually bitten by a terrier (no blood) at PetSmart when he was around 4-5 months, it actually hung off of his mouth, and he did not even move. He just stood there like "uh, what the heck is it doing?" He was rushed last november (again, around 5 months) by two off-leash Old English Sheepdogs, the male of which was NOT friendly. Again--he's fine. No aggression at all. In fact, his neutrality is coming along nicely as he matures. He is less and less interested in dogs he doesn't know. Genetics will play a large role in aggression and fear issues. 

I also disagree that socialization can "make" a dog scared of people. I will concede that some people are better owners than others, and that pups can have frightening experiences, or people completely misread their pups' language, but if we're quoting experts, you could start listing others who would totally disagree with that article, not the least of which is Ian Dunbar--who is, for the average pet owner, a great read. People need to exercise common sense, exposing their pup properly while protecting it.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't agree with the article for the most part, either. I never had a problem will allowing people to pet my pups. I only had an issue when I didn't. Maybe I'm missing the point, but past experience says it's not correct (at least not in what I've seen with my own eyes).


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Glad to hear the responses to the Leerburg article. I felt really uncomfortable reading it, it seemed over-controlling to me and severe. Not my style at all. 

That said, I take advantage of every child greeting I encounter. 
Spirit's not thrilled about any stranger greeting but I want him to learn that most strangers are going to be okay. That style of training, exposure to positive experience, feels intuitively right to me. Not at all the Leerburg approach.

And I learn so much watching Spirit interact with people he hasn't met..things we need to work on, and things that have really impressed me about him. One day at the lake, a little toddler came running across the parking lot screaming, "I want to pet the puppy!" His mother was calling after him, "Ask if it's okay!" LOL ... the toddler greeting was imminent. I put Spirit in a sit, had a treat handy to give to the little boy, and the greeting went really well. Spirit behaved just fine, didn't draw away. He wasn't too thrilled about being patted on the head, but he tolerated the boy very well. I was happy and reassured to witness Spirit's behavior in this situation.

How are we going to know our dogs, what their strength are and their weaknesses, if we don't give them exposure? If they aren't going to live in a bubble as adults, why raise them in one as a puppy?


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> exposing their pup properly while protecting it.


Right on :thumbup:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exerpt from the Leerburg artcile "

Our definition of socialization is to get our dogs comfortable with new places and circumstances. We want our dogs to be indifferent to people places and things. I want my dog to look at strangers as part of the environment and something to ignore not something to interact with. 
When we take our dog into strange new environments we want our dogs to willingly look to use for leadership and direction. "

THIS comes from the genetics -- genetic obedience and the breed specific character of the GSD "aloofness" . You do not create it by denying experience or contact. These traits are incorruptible .


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

carmspack said:


> THIS comes from the genetics -- genetic obedience and the breed specific character of the GSD "aloofness" . You do not create it by denying experience or contact. These traits are incorruptible .


And that's what I find so confusing, in regards to the Leerburg article. If Frawley was breeding such awesome GSDs (this I gather from what I've read on his site) why was he so worried about his dogs? I do agree with the walking stick though 

From my own experiences, my puppy went through several stages. At 8 weeks old, I had him out to hardware stores. I was concerned about taking him into pet stores until he had all his shots, so we didn't do much of those. But he was 'oohed and aahed' over so much when he was that age that he became very demanding as far as seeking attention from strangers. I would take him in when I knew it wasn't busy, and if I could get eye-contact from another shopper first (so I knew they wanted to meet him) I'd let him approach on his flexi. He was the cutest little puppy, waddling over to the person, exuding confidence, wanting attention.

Then, when he was older, we frequented all the pet stores. All the staff give out treats, so he would get excited and want to go over to the counter and get the goodies. He still loved the attention, but he really loved some of the primo treats they had. He was very good with a "sit" and taking treats gently.

Now, 9 months old, when he goes into the same pet stores, he doesn't care to go get the treats at all. He's not nearly as forward, as far as approaching strangers, although if they're right beside him he'll gladly take the attention. He's mostly paying attention to all the surroundings.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know much about leerburg except that I believe they breed and raise dogs for sport. Now, although sport dogs are well behaved and excellent examples of obedience, not everyone is looking for that kind of a dog. Not everyone wants a completely people neutral dog, or a dog neutral dog, and depending on what they want out of the dog the training changes.

Leerburg's way works if you have good genetics and then you will be continuing onto other things with that dog. If you are just looking for a pet, you will probably still end up with a good dog, but just not one that's as friendly as most pet people I know want their dogs.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> And that's what I find so confusing, in regards to the Leerburg article. If Frawley was breeding such awesome GSDs (this I gather from what I've read on his site) why was he so worried about his dogs? I do agree with the walking stick though
> 
> From my own experiences, my puppy went through several stages. At 8 weeks old, I had him out to hardware stores. I was concerned about taking him into pet stores until he had all his shots, so we didn't do much of those. But he was 'oohed and aahed' over so much when he was that age that he became very demanding as far as seeking attention from strangers. I would take him in when I knew it wasn't busy, and if I could get eye-contact from another shopper first (so I knew they wanted to meet him) I'd let him approach on his flexi. He was the cutest little puppy, waddling over to the person, exuding confidence, wanting attention.
> 
> ...


Exactly the same with my dog! It's interesting how they grow into being more aloof.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I don't have a problem with kids or people in general petting my dogs as long as they ask.If I'm training, nobody really bothers me,as far as approaching goes. They may watch what I am doing,but they never interrupt me. If I have a dog who is nervous around people,I tell whoever is approaching,and they always are respectful of that.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Blanketback said:


> And that's what I find so confusing, in regards to the Leerburg article. If Frawley was breeding such awesome GSDs (this I gather from what I've read on his site) why was he so worried about his dogs?


You have to keep in mind that Leerburg is all about marketing and anything he personally says needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.Just because someone puts something into print, doesn't make it true. 

That particular article is a total joke and no one should do what it says. You might get away with that advice if you don't live in the real world and keep your dog at home in a kennel, but for the rest of us, it is terrible advice.

He's not breeding GSDs anymore, but still, when was the last time anyone bragged about the success of one of his dogs?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Elaine said:


> That particular article is a total joke and no one should do what it says. You might get away with that advice if you don't live in the real world and keep your dog at home in a kennel, but for the rest of us, it is terrible advice.


I thought I should quote that to make it a nice easy read for anyone who skims through threads. For anyone who did read the link, and was wondering if it was good advice or not, lol.

Nothing against Leerburg - I have ordered from them before and they have good quality products and ship fast. But all I know about them is what they've told me (written on the site)...maybe a salt lick is in order.

Martemchik, this is a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' type of question, but do you think sport GSDs are less "friendly" because that's a genetic issue, or could it be because these dogs aren't socialized to the extent that others are? Just food for thought.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Martemchik, this is a 'what came first, the chicken or the egg' type of question, but do you think sport GSDs are less "friendly" because that's a genetic issue, or could it be because these dogs aren't socialized to the extent that others are? Just food for thought.


Great point! But I can tell you this...we did the whole, "socialize and let everyone touch/pet your dog" thing when my boy was little. And it was easy...he grew up on a college campus and trust me, college girls can't resist a 4 month old GSD puppy. I saw girls go out of their way to pet him. Today...he's extremely aloof...he won't come up to you for a pet for the life of him. I get embarrassed all the time when people ask "is he friendly" I say yes and he just walks away from them.

Now...I've read/heard that most sport people do not let others pet their dogs as much. They tend to be near people and train by people but they don't really socialize in the same way. But looking at my boy, its definitely genetics. At one point I thought we over socialized him he was so friendly, but then one day a switch went off and he just stopped caring about people. Now, I'd trust him around anyone in any situation, but he isn't a super friendly lab. In fact...he doesn't even cuddle with us, he will lay next to you but prefers not to be touched lol.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I get embarrassed all the time when people ask "is he friendly" I say yes and he just walks away from them.


LOL!  This has happened to me too, and I have to tell people that my dog is just doing what a GSD does - not fawning overbearing affection, just a nice polite acknowledgement. They do look at me funny, lol.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My puppy is 5 months old, and the last time we took him into the pet store he totally ignored the workers. When he was younger he would run right up to them. But his dog training is at a vet's office, and when we got there this week a few vet techs ran right up and stuck their face in his (pretty stupid IMO). He just licked them and wagged his tail. To me that is the advantage of socializing him - when people do ignorant things I don't have to worry he will rip their face off.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read this whole thread but this is how I approach it: if someone asks politely (gives my dog space, asks me for permission to pet) then I say "yes", especially if it's a kid. I want to educate/reinforce them ASKING and not just rushing at the dog and asking while they're already reaching for the dog. If my dog cannot be pet at all for whatever reason (aggression, illness, etc) then I would not bring that dog to a public place where it would be common to pet dogs. True, it's always my dog and my call but I don't see the point of taking my dogs in public if I'm never going to allow anyone near them. I work on a college campus and take my dogs to work fairly regularly (they are not allowed indoors though) and to be honest I rarely have people grabbing at them or being inappropriate. Most people just don't care or are too busy to stop anyway. It's a great place for socialization because my dogs learn that people are *neutral*. By the time my puppies were 14 weeks old my co-workers were already commenting on how well-behaved they are in public (not lunging at people or jumping, sitting calmly next to me and just wagging their tails when people come up to pet them).


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but this is how I approach it: if someone asks politely (gives my dog space, asks me for permission to pet) then I say "yes", especially if it's a kid. I want to educate/reinforce them ASKING and not just rushing at the dog and asking while they're already reaching for the dog. If my dog cannot be pet at all for whatever reason (aggression, illness, etc) then I would not bring that dog to a public place where it would be common to pet dogs. True, it's always my dog and my call but I don't see the point of taking my dogs in public if I'm never going to allow anyone near them. I work on a college campus and take my dogs to work fairly regularly (they are not allowed indoors though) and to be honest I rarely have people grabbing at them or being inappropriate. Most people just don't care or are too busy to stop anyway. It's a great place for socialization because my dogs learn that people are *neutral*. By the time my puppies were 14 weeks old my co-workers were already commenting on how well-behaved they are in public (not lunging at people or jumping, sitting calmly next to me and just wagging their tails when people come up to pet them).


I didn't read past the first post because it's just a weird debate to me. If a dog has good nerves and temperament, I see no reason why you shouldn't let people pet them. My mali with weak nerves, though sweet tempered, would shake like a leaf if I took him to a place like petsmart. So I don't, because people will ask to pet him and he'll be nervous. It won't accomplish anything for training purposes and people will get the wrong idea about the dog and the breed. So if I'm taking one of my dogs somewhere, I determine where we are going and if the dog will handle that situation well. I should note that two of my three GSD's were adopted as adults and both came from sketchy pasts, whereas my one GSD who is the most social friendly girl you could imagine with people has probably had thousands of people pet her over the past 9 years. My mali I've had since he was a pup, but he has super weak nerves and his trainer and I determined that flooding him with attention would only backfire and make him fear aggressive, so he's trained to be neutral and I don't take him places where people will approach him.

Honestly I just don't have issues with people approaching my dogs without my knowledge though. I just pay attention to them and my surroundings and never have kids and people just run up on them.


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