# Color Genetics Question



## ChancetheGSD

Alright, I'm useless when it comes to genetics so I figured this would be the place to ask. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I pick up, as long as each parent carries and passes on the black gene then a puppy out of two sable parents can be black, yes?

If so, what are the odds of the majority of a litter out of two sables being dominated by black puppies? :/


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## Danielle609

If I understand correctly the sable coloration is dominant and black is recessive. So in order to get a solid black out of sable parents, both parents would need to carry the black gene. That being said if both parents are recessive for black then each offspring has a 1 in 4 chance of being solid black. So it isn't very likely to have a litter full of solid black pups, but I guess it could happen.


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## carmspack

unless the OP is looking at a litter recently born , appearing to be "black" - give it a few weeks and you might see that the pups are black or dark sables .?


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## fuzzybunny

Danielle609 said:


> If I understand correctly the sable coloration is dominant and black is recessive. So in order to get a solid black out of sable parents, both parents would need to carry the black gene. That being said if both parents are recessive for black then each offspring has a 1 in 4 chance of being solid black. So it isn't very likely to have a litter full of solid black pups, but I guess it could happen.


If I remember my grade 11 biology correctly, then this is correct.


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## lhczth

Colors never seem to play the odds.  You could breed two dogs together who carry the black recessive and not get a single black puppy. You could also get mostly black puppies. 

I bred a b/t that carres black to a black. The odds were 50/50. 7 puppies, 5 black, two dark b/t like mom. Bred a b/t that carries black to a sable that carries BI. Got all b/t that carry BI (25% chance). Not a single sable (50%) or BI pup (25%) in the litter. LOL


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## wolfstraum

Have had several litters from two sables that had black pups....Bashas sire was black, she had black or black/tans in every litter...Hexe is from 2 sables, had one black littermate and had black pups to Nick del Lupo Nero who is sable...Csabre is sable, sire is black, had all sables to Gaston - so he probably is homozygous for sable...so don't know if any of the pups carry black (crossed fingers)...

Look at the pedigree, see if any of the grandparents produced black or if either dog has black littermates.

Lee


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## qbchottu

Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements
Remember that whatever the odds of a genetic cross, EACH pup is a new roll of the dice so like Lisa says, although the odds might be 50/50, you could end up getting a litter with ALL black or no black.


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## ChancetheGSD

Thanks for the replies guys! Kind of what I figured but slightly hoped you guys would tell me I'm crazy and reading everything wrong. Lol!

The problem is, I can't just look at pedigree anymore. I was told Gretchen was out of two dogs named Sheeba and Yogi. I had questioned the breeder a while back why the name on the dams side said Holly instead of Sheeba since he registers ALL his dogs by their call and his kennel name. He requires this of his puppies too. He just told me it was the same dog and I took his word for it. Well now I'm wondering if the sire is even correct. :/ He told me Yogi was the dad, which is what Gretchen's papers say. Problem is, I was going through their old breeding updates and every post was about them breeding Sheeba to Lucas. Now I'm wondering if he didn't breed two unregistered dogs and throw two other dogs papers on the puppies and I'm kind of PO'ed about it. There was never any update up to the breeding or afterwards that they were changing plans on the sire. And given that his kennels are very high quality and escape proof, I just don't see it being an "oops" litter. (And even then I think there should have been an update if that was the case)

Momma is a sable, that is for sure since she obviously gave birth and raised the litter, but her PAPERS can't be guaranteed but regardless of HERS there is still the question of DADS! Yogi is a solid black and Lucas is a black sable.










That is the picture of the litter (with mom) when they were about 5 weeks old. Looking closely though (I didn't pay much attention to the other two pups at the time because I was too busy with MY puppy...) the puppy behind Gretchen seems to have little dots above the eyes and some markings on the toes. Which makes me wonder if he/she wasn't a really a black/dark sable puppy. :thinking: The other one looks no doubt solid black. Though that is still a really dark sable puppy to be a sable, at least the darkest I've ever seen.

I'm just more than confused and angered if it's true at this point...I love my girl dearly and wouldn't give her up for the world but I feel like I was a bit ripped off. Lucas is pretty nonetheless but I know nothing about him. If I paid for his puppy it would be one thing but I feel pretty stupid telling everyone Gretchen is from x lines when really God may be the only one who truly knows what she is...

Would it even be worth asking the breeder about? I don't really feel it's fair to be lied to if Yogi isn't the daddy. If I've got a puppy out of two random parents I would like to get some money back to just pay "pet price" and use what I spent on her for papers and lines to put towards the medical bills she has racked up since day 1.


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## martemchik

The thing with genetics is that I'm pretty sure its not just as simple as what the grandparents colors were to see what kind of alleles might be passed on. You also have to look at the great grandparents and even farther back. I don't know if guessing the color combination will give you enough proof that your dog isn't from x sire. Does the breeder have the DNA on record with the AKC? Isn't there are rule about dogs siring a certain amount of litters and then needing to register their DNA? I'd check on that and see if you can prove anything, but as far as looking at the genetics of color...you'll never really get to the bottom of it.


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## lhczth

The mother, a black sable, was bred to either a black or a black sable. 

She obviously carries black so when bred to a black she would have a 50/50 chance of producing black puppies and sable puppies that carry black. 

If she was bred to the black sable (who probably carries black) then you would still get black puppies, black sable puppies and then some homozygous (only sable genes) puppies. 

The puppies shown are possible from either combination. 

IMO the two pups in the back are both black. 

The only way you will ever know is if DNA is done on the parents and the pup.


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## ChancetheGSD

Yogi has a DNA #, I have no idea about Lucas though. The puppies weren't tested to my knowledge. I had thought about asking to DNA test her to see but I have a feeling he'd get pretty huffy about it, that is if he even answers. He got pretty fed up with me when I first got her because of the problems she had (Double ear infection, heart murmur, wonky walk and a recessed vulva) and my calling to let him know what was up. Last two times I tried to call him (About training he said came with the puppy) he didn't answer or reply to my messages. :/


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## Chris Wild

If the supposed sire, Yogi, is DNA'ed than you can find out if that is truly her sire. You don't need the breeder to be involved in it. You can contact AKC and order a DNA swab for your dog, and then by comparing that to the DNA profile of Yogi you'll get a definitive answer on whether or not he is the sire.


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## jaggirl47

If Yogi has registered DNA, you don't have to ask the breeder. You can order the DNA kit directly from AKC to test your pup. It will show if Yogi is the sire or not.


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## ChancetheGSD

Ahhh! I'll have to look into that then. Thank you!!!


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