# When you don't necessarily "agree" with the trainer?



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

We've just begun classes. Our first class wasn't a good fit. Too advanced for us. Long story, just wasn't right at this time.

Now the class we're going to (we've attended two classes), is better, and more in line with what I am comfortable with, (positive/reward based training) but I still don't feel like I'm in the right place. Better, yes, but not yet "it." 

The things I don't "like" are stupid, probably. (I'm trusting you people won't be shy about telling me if I'm being overly picky here. ) 

Small examples. One thing we just started working on is "place." As in, go to your "place." I don't care if my dog ever learns this. I tell him "back" (as in back up) or "out" (as in out of a room, area) and it works fine. I don't care if he ever goes to a "place." Sure, we'll work on it in class because that's the subject matter, but I could care less.

Other dumb example - sit. I tell Bailey "sit," he sits. If I want him to continue to sit, I say "stay" afterwards along with a hand signal. (I love hand signals. I try to teach the verbal along with a hand signal so later, as we work farther apart, I won't have to scream.) The trainer does not want me to say stay or bother with the hand signal. Her opinion is when you say "sit" then it means they remain until you free them. That *does* make sense, I won't deny that, but I've been doing it this way since he came home. How can I change the rules for him now? I mean, it's working for us.

What I'm asking is how do you deal with the smallish differences that surely rise up? Do you change your whole way of working with your dog based on what the class wants you to do? Do you just keep trying to find different classes? (I mean, surely these smaller issues crop up no matter what class you go to.)

I don't want to disrespect the trainer. I don't want to confuse my dog. I concede she knows far more about training than I, so please don't think I'm being arrogant. I don't think I'm being arrogant, but maybe I am.???


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I also used to say Stay after sit or down and am now changing that. It's not confusing to them if you are consistent, clear and proof your sit and down. I now only use Stay when we are outside and a car is coming. She'll sit or down wherever she is. After I got used to it, I liked it. 

I never taught Jax place and many times I wish I had. Give it a chance and look at it as a new thing to teach your boy.  There will be other things that you just don't care about but if you are in a group class, you kind of have to play along for the sake of the others.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

"Go to your place" is a freakin' awesome command. At our house, it's "get on the couch, but still. . ." If I'm having a snack and he won't stop staring at it, "go get on your couch." If somebody comes to the door and I want to talk to them without two GSDs looming behind me, "go get on your couch." If I have a friend over who's scared of big dogs, "go get on your couch." If you're scared of dogs, it's a lot easier to be in the same room with two GSDs who are lying on the couch than two GSDs who are walking around and panting. If somebody's visiting with a small child and the dogs start to get too rambunctious, "go get on the couch." There are about a bazillion applications for a "place" command.


There's no use whatsoever for "shake" or "dead dog" or jumping through tires and running through tunnels, but my dogs do those things too. 

That said, it's my dog. I train my dog the way I want. I'm paying the instructor for her expertise and experience, but if there's something I want to do differently, I'll do it. If she brings it up I'll explain it, but at the end of the way I'm not very negotiable with stuff like that. 



That said, if I'm learning something new that I know very little about (like our current agility class) I'll do it however the instructor tells me, because I know literally nothing about teaching agility.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

A "place" may be useful at some point. 
As could a "sit" until you release them. 

What you're looking at is the difference between "do it yourself" obedience and a training class


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Place is a great command. You can take a rug anywhere and just tell the dog "place" and it stays there but it is not as intense mentally as having to stay in position.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I just started with a new trainer too, and sit means sit and stay vs the two commands I was giving. I agree with both ways. Both makes sense. We are doing down / sit in motion. I'm not saying stay (hard for me) but my dogs gets it. I'm starting to drop stay and she gets it. 

As far as place goes I think it is a great exercise, especially if you are taking more advanced classes later on and maybe competing.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

What type of class are you attending? I work in Schutzhund and when my trainer tells me to teach my dog to do something, I do it regardless of whether or not I believe I am ever actually going to use it. I look at it as another mentally stimulating exercise that when accomplished, will reinforce our relationship as a training team. Its the same reason a lot of people teach other "tricks" such as paw, play dead, etc.
As far as training your sit/stay..I believe that is just a personal style of training. I do agree with your trainer, however. Dogs who compete in Schutzhund, for instance, when doing an out of motion-sit exercise, are given a "sit" command while heeling the handler, without another "stay" command. After all, isn't it really easier for yourself to teach your dog to sit/stay or down/stay with one word rather than two? Hand signals have also seemed pretty redundant to me..if you don't think your dog will be able to hear you from a distance, then chances are he won't be able to see you either!
And as far as "confusing" your dog...keep in mind that your dog is smart and does have the capacity to learn more than you think he can


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Okay. I like place too.  I think that sometimes that teaching a dog something is not really about the utility of the command, but rather about learning to learn. Heck, I taught my dog to put 2 feet up on a bucket and twirl around. Now, that's actually a useful tool for us in other things we do, but really helpful in and of itself? no. 

I also don't use stay. Can't in our performance venue. Consider that trainers offer a series of classes. The idea is you go to puppy, maybe Basic, maybe Advanced, and maybe onwards to competitive obedience. They don't want to start you out using something that you can't use later on. And it's can be easier to add in a stay command than to take one away. And I know maybe you're not interested in competitive obedience, but I'm sure plenty of people have gone in just wanting a well mannered dog and then ended up getting hooked. It's in the trainer's best interest to start you with the commands and methods they have found most useful for their program. That's what you're paying for. 

In the end though, you're dog will only do what you work on. There are plenty of things I've just ignored from my OB trainers. I've been to classes that hate prong collars. I still use them at home, even if I just bring my flat to class. I've been to classes where they show heel as more of a loose leash walk. I teach a very formal heel command, so I don't really do any of what they show me there. In the end, the instructor gets paid whether or not you listen and I've always found most to be respectful of what I want to do with my dog as long as it doesn't create a safety problem.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Place is a great exercise and will help your dog if put in situations where s/he may load up due to excitement or stress. Place should be a comfort zone.
And if you carry a crate pad in your vehicle you can use this anytime, anywhere.
Sit/stay is whatever you make it....I never use hand signals because we can't in ScH. I give the command to do the position and never say stay. 
If the dog doesn't do it or won't hold the position until I free him/her, then I will repeat the exercise or correct if the dog is clear on what I want. I do use a bridge word of good sit or good platz when training the position it is a hold type word until I mark it. Does your trainer use clickers?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> There's no use whatsoever for "shake" or "dead dog" or jumping through tires and running through tunnels, but my dogs do those things too.


Guess what Emoore your going to be doing a lot of jumping through tires and running through tunnels in agility. But you already knew that didn't you


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Guess what Emoore your going to be doing a lot of jumping through tires and running through tunnels in agility. But you already knew that didn't you


That's, um, . . . . . what I meant?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't care if my dogs ever learn Place or Go To Your Place either. We supposedly did it in a few classes, but I never bothered with it. As for the sit and stay commands. I like to use two commands, but that is because of what I am training. 

In obedience, they say SIT YOUR DOGS, and then you tell your dog to SIT, and then they say LEAVE YOUR DOGS, at that point you can give them a good STAY command and hand signal -- just the way we do it. Same with down. Sit means Sit, Down means Down, Stay means Stay. This came in very useful with Heidi. I moved her up to her RE when she got her RA title and I had signed her up for an insurance run -- two trials on the same day, same location, I needed one leg, and signed her up for both just in case I did something stupid.

Anyway, she did awesome and the competition in excellent seemed to be rather sad, so I thought I would go ahead and move her up. We did not practice excellent signs with her, so I did the run through and then had to quickly teach her two signs we never did. One was the moving stand. Where you say STAY, and the dog stops in a stand while you continue to walk around the dog. I guess I could have said STAND, but STAND normally includes someone running their hand down the dog, and I thought maybe that would be more confusing to the dog than just saying STAY. She did it perfectly in the ring and we took the class. Also, I do not always give my dog a HEEL command. Unless I tell them to stay, they pretty much heel along with me after a down, or a sit or whatever. When I want them to stay so I can walk around them or turn and take a step, I tell them to stay. Like with the come fronts. Go backwards, and call the dog front, dog sits, finish to the left and halt, well the dog sits, so you say FINISH, then SIT, once the dog sits you can continue without HEEL, sometimes you just go forward, and don't sit, so you just start going when the dog is out of your way, he finds heel.

Anyway, I prefer to separate sit from stay. It works for me. If I am in a class, well, I have been in so many with my instructor, that if I give up on trying something new, they aren't too crazy about it. 

It depends on how you come to class. If you come desperate because your dog is totally out of control, and then refuse to do things that the instructor suggests -- that is an issue. If you and your dog are doing fine and you are taking the class to work around other people and dogs, well, I would just tell the instructor that I tried the new method, but I keep reverting back to what I was doing, and it just isn't working for me. The dog can do it. I am having trouble. I figure you are paying the money for the class, you can take what you can from it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> ....I never use hand signals because we can't in ScH..... Does your trainer use clickers?


ScH is never going to be in our future.. Oops I just said never. I hate that word, but it isn't very likely at all. And no, they don't use clickers in this particular class. 



Jax08 said:


> ....It's not confusing to them if you are consistent, clear and proof your sit and down. I now only use Stay when we are outside and a car is coming. She'll sit or down wherever she is. After I got used to it, I liked it.
> 
> I never taught Jax place and many times I wish I had. Give it a chance and look at it as a new thing to teach your boy.  There will be other things that you just don't care about but if you are in a group class, you kind of have to play along for the sake of the others.


So I should consider changing what I'm doing. That will likely be harder on me than him, hehe. My hand automatically flies up. True enough, though, the more he learns, the better he (and I) will be.



Emoore said:


> "Go to your place" is a freakin' awesome command. At our house, it's "get on the couch, but still. . ." If I'm having a snack and he won't stop staring at it, "go get on your couch." If somebody comes to the door and I want to talk to them without two GSDs looming behind me, "go get on your couch." If I have a friend over who's scared of big dogs, "go get on your couch." If you're scared of dogs, it's a lot easier to be in the same room with two GSDs who are lying on the couch than two GSDs who are walking around and panting. If somebody's visiting with a small child and the dogs start to get too rambunctious, "go get on the couch." There are about a bazillion applications for a "place" command.
> 
> That said, it's my dog. I train my dog the way I want. I'm paying the instructor for her expertise and experience, but if there's something I want to do differently, I'll do it. If she brings it up I'll explain it, but at the end of the way I'm not very negotiable with stuff like that.
> 
> That said, if I'm learning something new that I know very little about (like our current agility class) I'll do it however the instructor tells me, because I know literally nothing about teaching agility.


Okay, put like that, yes, that could be very useful. I really am very receptive to anything she can teach me to teach my dog. Way open book... especially, as you say, when it is something I know nothing of. 



msvette2u said:


> A "place" may be useful at some point.
> As could a "sit" until you release them.
> 
> What you're looking at is the difference between "do it yourself" obedience and a training class


Hehe, yeah, do it yourself can work to some extent, but I need more than that.  So does Mr Bailey. 



GatorDog said:


> What type of class are you attending? I work in Schutzhund and when my trainer tells me to teach my dog to do something, I do it regardless of whether or not I believe I am ever actually going to use it. I look at it as another mentally stimulating exercise that when accomplished, will reinforce our relationship as a training team. Its the same reason a lot of people teach other "tricks" such as paw, play dead, etc.
> As far as training your sit/stay..I believe that is just a personal style of training. I do agree with your trainer, however. Dogs who compete in Schutzhund, for instance, when doing an out of motion-sit exercise, are given a "sit" command while heeling the handler, without another "stay" command. After all, isn't it really easier for yourself to teach your dog to sit/stay or down/stay with one word rather than two? Hand signals have also seemed pretty redundant to me..if you don't think your dog will be able to hear you from a distance, then chances are he won't be able to see you either!
> And as far as "confusing" your dog...keep in mind that your dog is smart and does have the capacity to learn more than you think he can


True. True. We're only on beginning Obedience. I don't know where we'll go from there, but Schutzhund isn't on our agenda... maybe agility, flyball.. hard to say at this point, I have to see what his strengths are before I can say. Your last sentence is funny  -- I'm likely underestimating him. 



JKlatsky said:


> Okay. I like place too.  I think that sometimes that teaching a dog something *is not really about the utility of the command, but rather about learning to learn*.....
> 
> ...... I know maybe you're not interested in competitive obedience, *but I'm sure plenty of people have gone in just wanting a well mannered dog and then ended up getting hooked. It's in the trainer's best interest to start you with the commands and methods they have found most useful for their program.* That's what you're paying for.


Excellent points, that gives me a lot more to think about. That was a really awesome statement - (that I bolded above in red.) You've definitely given me (as have you all) a lot to consider.


Thanks everyone for the feedback.  VERY helpful.! :thumbup:


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't think you're being arrogant. You're dedicated to finding the right trainer instead of settling for the most convenient option. You're doing what works for you, which makes sense because, at the end of the day, YOU are going to be the one living with the dog.

That said, there's nothing wrong with experimenting with different techniques, assuming you trust the trainer. You might end up preferring not having to say "Stay" or doing the hand motion after commands. As Selzer said, you'll take some lessons and disregard others.

I wouldn't worry about confusing the dog with new techniques. Try the new ones to see if they work better for you than the old ones. If they do, and you're consistent with the new technique after adopting it, your dog should pick it up fine. These dogs are so smart, catch on so fast, and forgive us for our mistakes so readily. 

Good luck!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> _It depends on how you come to class. If you come desperate because your dog is totally out of control, and then refuse to do things that the instructor suggests -- that is an issue._ If you and your dog are doing fine and you are taking the class to work around other people and dogs, well, I would just tell the instructor that I tried the new method, but I keep reverting back to what I was doing, and it just isn't working for me. The dog can do it. I am having trouble. I figure you are paying the money for the class, you can take what you can from it.


BINGO!!! That's *exactly* what I do *not* want to be!! I'm actually very torn here. I don't want to be a pita dog owner, a know-it-all, etc. That's part of the issue - I can get Bailey to do what I want him to do for the most part - (he's so distracted by the dogs in the class, we lose focus too often, though, ugh) - that I'm thinking *I* am more closed to new ideas at times. The old if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality. You want me to get him to stay on this bed? Ok! Let me tell him sit, stay and let me put my hand up like a cop at an uncontrolled intersection. He'll do it!  I can get the result you want! But now you want me to do it this other way and it's gonna be a little fight. :laugh: If I do it "your" way, I have to continue to do it that way forever. I can't do it one way at class and another at home. I love my hand signals, hehe. I love that I don't actually need to *say* anything at all - just the signal alone gets just what I want. So I gotta ditch that? Ugh! 

I guess I'm going to try to shift my thinking to try it her way even if I might not see the usefulness of whatever-it-is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like hand signals too. We use them all the time in Rally, but when we get to obedience it is generally one or the other. So if you train with signals, it is good to train it both ways, or all three ways, signal and word, signal only, words only. So in class practice using just words. 

Holding up the stop sign -- I have done it, or use it as a reminder in training when the dog is in a long sit or down and seems like they may think that it has gone on long enough. But if you have to hold the hand up the entire time, well, you should probably make it a goal to be able to say or signal STAY, and not have to have the constant reminder. We cannot use the stop sign in the ring, but we do it in training when the dog is learning to help them, especially when we are going back to them we give the stop sign and say STAY, and then go back. Eventually we wean them of that.

The one think Rally is bad at is repeated commands. Repeated commands are nagging. Dogs tune out nagging. Sit, sit, sit, SIT! SIT-NOW! For heaven's sake these people would get a much cleaner run if they could just in training stop those multiple commands.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Seems like a good trainer, listen to him/her and learn.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I think they are issues you can overcome... unless you think you can find a place that does everything EXACTLY the way you want (not likely).

I would consider yourself lucky, actually... the three training options in my area are nowhere close to being what I'm looking for (which is actually why I'm studying to become a trainer and open my own place... but that's FAR into the future).

Option 1: Petco. 'nuff said.

Option 2: Positive reinforcement trainer who uses alpha rolls and scruff corrections. Also very "cliquey" as she pretty much only pays attention to her favorites.

Option 3: Teaches that puppies should be held down by their collars until they stop struggling to show them who's boss.

I chose Option 2 and simply took what I could out of the classes and left the rest.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

chelle said:


> If I want him to continue to sit, I say "stay" afterwards along with a hand signal. (I love hand signals. I try to teach the verbal along with a hand signal so later, as we work farther apart, I won't have to scream.) The trainer does not want me to say stay or bother with the hand signal.


You've already got lots of great comments (and I totally agree about the "place" command - very useful, even if you don't think you need it right now), but I wanted to say something about the use of hand signals. I totally agree about their usefullness, especially for distance, but it's best if you use one or the other, not both at the same time. So if you're using a verbal cue, only use a verbal cue. If you're using a hand signal, only use the hand signal. Your dog should respond to both, just separately. 

Try an experiment - tell your dog to sit, but give the hand signal for down. Tell your dog to down, but give the hand signal for sit. Say some random word and give the hand signal for either a sit or a down. What does your dog do in each of these instances? I think you'll find that in most if not all cases he's reading your body language, not listening to what you're saying. If you want him to really know voice cues they have to be separate enough from the hand signal that he can focus on the word without being distracted by the movement, even if just by a couple of seconds. If you're always giving the hand signal at the same time or immediately after you say the word, he's going to learn to rely on that as part of the cue and he may not respond without it.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I think most of us have gone along with the class even though we have no intention of using the command- for me it was the front sits and finish, all the stuff you need for competing. But there was the benefit of mental stimulation from learning something new. Stosh does a great side finish- he hops up and lands next to me in the finish position. It's cute but nothing I'd ever use. Out of curiosity I gave him the command the other day and he still knows how to do it! I would go along with what the trainer wants during the class and adapt it to use at home or not at all. You might find some things useful in the future that you didn't expect


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Place is very high on my MUST HAVE commands. I can't imagine, how convenient it would be, if I could put Kira in her corner, every time my doorbell rings, or a friend drops by. There are times, where I may not want to crate her, but "place" her.

I say teach her her place.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

During one of my classes we did an interesting experienment. We taught sit, first with voice and a lure, then we added the hand signal with the sit command, then we just used the hand signal.

Go to the corner, face the wall, and have your dog behind you. Tell your dog to sit. In this class Dakota was the only dog who sat on my voice command. That is becasue I still worked with the verbal cue. Most others dropped it and only worked on the hand signal.

I use both a hand signal and a verbal cue, but not at the same time.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anthony8858 said:


> Place is very high on my MUST HAVE commands. I can't imagine, how convenient it would be, if I could put Kira in her corner, every time my doorbell rings, or a friend drops by. There are times, where I may not want to crate her, but "place" her.


:thumbup: I would suggest that rather than the "place" command be an _actual_ place (such as the corner of a particular room), you use a mat or rug for your place command. That way, "place" is portable, and you can use it other places besides that room or even in your house. Bring the mat to the park, to a friend's house or to the vet's office, and her place comes with you. 

When I taught Halo the "go to your mat" command I purposely put the mat in a different room in the house every day that I worked on it so she would generalize the command to the mat, no matter where it was, vs a specific spot or room.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thumbup: I would suggest that rather than the "place" command be an _actual_ place (such as the corner of a particular room),_* you use a mat or rug for your place command. That way, "place" is portable, and you can use it other places besides that room or even in your house. Bring the mat to the park, to a friend's house or to the vet's office, and her place comes with you. *_
> 
> When I taught Halo the "go to your mat" command I purposely put the mat in a different room in the house every day that I worked on it so she would generalize the command to the mat, no matter where it was, vs a specific spot or room.


This is EXCELLENT advice. There's a Youtube video of this. The trainer demonstrates how a ringing doorbell will agitate his dog, and how a single command puts his dog on a mat in the corner. He's then able to open the door, and greet his guests.
Absolutely critical command in my book.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's how I taught Halo: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/128329-place-command.html#post1738939


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's how I taught Halo: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/128329-place-command.html#post1738939


 
And it worked!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Caledon said:


> During one of my classes we did an interesting experienment. We taught sit, first with voice and a lure, then we added the hand signal with the sit command, then we just used the hand signal.
> 
> Go to the corner, face the wall, and have your dog behind you. Tell your dog to sit. In this class Dakota was the only dog who sat on my voice command. That is becasue I still worked with the verbal cue. Most others dropped it and only worked on the hand signal.
> 
> I use both a hand signal and a verbal cue, but not at the same time.


Once upon a time, I was in a CGC class with the trainer whom I have worked with often. There was a line of us waiting our turn to welcome someone at the gate, when the trainer looked and beyond us her dog had stood up. We were all in the way of a direct hand signal, and I guess she did not want to raise her voice, so she said, "Sue, down my dog." 

I looked over and said "DOWN!" with a good solid voice and hand signal. Not only did her dog go down, but the other dogs in the line in between. It was funny because their owners sometime had trouble with downs. I did not think I had such a commanding presence but somethings you just take and run with.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> Once upon a time, I was in a CGC class with the trainer whom I have worked with often. There was a line of us waiting our turn to welcome someone at the gate, when the trainer looked and beyond us her dog had stood up. We were all in the way of a direct hand signal, and I guess she did not want to raise her voice, so she said, "Sue, down my dog."
> 
> I looked over and said "DOWN!" with a good solid voice and hand signal. Not only did her dog go down, but the other dogs in the line in between. It was funny because their owners sometime had trouble with downs. I did not think I had such a commanding presence but somethings you just take and run with.


 
Too funny.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I personally use hand signals with my dogs because when I don't, I accidentally train them to random signals. 

I discovered that I took on certain body posture with each command when I was first training Luna. She learned to watch my body posture and as soon as I would change position and get ready to tell her what to do, she'd already done it. I started adding purposeful hand signals because I wanted to know what I was telling my dog, if that makes sense.


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## Judahsmom (Mar 2, 2011)

After reading this thread yesterday, I decided to train Judah to "go to your place". He has been in training since he was 10 weeks old and is now 14 months. We are just finishing up with CGC....so he knows sit, down, settle, etc. Well, I got my clicker and treats and he got it instantly! I move the rug from room to room and he knew exactly what I wanted. When my husband got home from work, I had to show him and he said that's exactly what we've needed. My question now is do I keep treating him for staying in his place and how long can expect him to stay? If the answer is "until you release him"...he'll get up before than. I guess I'm trying to figure out how long to keep rewarding him with treats before expecting him to stay in his place for any length of time [20 - 30 minutes]. I welcome your comments and advice. Thanks!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Judahsmom said:


> My question now is do I keep treating him for staying in his place and how long can expect him to stay? If the answer is "until you release him"...he'll get up before than. I guess I'm trying to figure out how long to keep rewarding him with treats before expecting him to stay in his place for any length of time [20 - 30 minutes]. I welcome your comments and advice. Thanks!


Great job! I wouldn't expect too much too soon, but you can definitely start having him stay for a bit longer before rewarding and releasing, and you can also reward randomly a few times while he's there. How high your rate of reinforcement needs to be and how long you can expect him to stay there before the release really depends on how strong his place behavior is and how well he grasps the general concept of "stay". I don't normally use a stay command with mat work, but stay is one of Halo's strongest behaviors so I never really had to - I had a harder time getting her to come off the mat when released than to stay on it. 

The best advice I can give you is to err on the side of rewarding too often vs not often enough, and on the side of releasing him before you think you need to rather than waiting too long and having him self release. Don't be in too big a hurry to increase difficulty - set him up to succeed rather than risk failure. Since you just started training this, I'd do a LOT of "place", reward/reward/reward, & release, and then gradually build up duration while reducing the reinforcement schedule over a period of weeks. 

Another thing you can work on is to send him to the mat from various angles and distances.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Our dogs are absolutely AMAZING! And if you are in a good set of positive based classes the more you can learn the better! Cause it's not just about the command (like the 'go to the place' ) it's about the LEARNING!

It's why teaching tricks is so amazing! Does it matter to the world that your dog can spin both ways? No so much  But the bond it creates to teach your dog and have them learn. For our dogs to be excited to listen and learn from us. The mere fact that they CAN learn so much (and how amazing it is that so few of us get the chance to challenge our dogs ...) should be commended and built upon! 

Teaching a trick is the least important part of teaching a trick

LoLaBu Land Experience Tricks


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## Judahsmom (Mar 2, 2011)

Cassidy's mom - thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it and the additional comments about trying it from different angles. I know I have his attention and he is eager to do it AND to get his treat. He is very food modivated. I love trying new things with him. Good to know to take my time with this...I don't want to discourage him by expecting too much too soon. Plus I also want to practice appreciating just having that closeness with him when training...that is the point.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

OK, I confess, I didn't read all of the posts so my response may be out of whack.
It seems like the 'STAY' command is obsolete (with some trainers). If you tell your dog to SIT then he/she should sit until released. Telling them to STAY is redundant. Once they are SITting or DOWNing then they should remain there until released.
SO, who needs a STAY?
I use WAIT when we are out-of-doors and that works as a STAY. Other than that, STAY is not needed.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Judahsmom said:


> Good to know to take my time with this...I don't want to discourage him by expecting too much too soon. Plus I also want to practice appreciating just having that closeness with him when training...that is the point.


EXACTLY! :hug:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the trainer wants to use the word "place". where is his
place in class or at home? you can tell your dog "out"
or "back up" and he leaves the kitchen. if you were to say
"place" where does the trainer want your dog to go? when i 
want my dog out of the kitchen i can say "out Loki",
"out of the kitchen", "come on, you have to get up" and he leaves the kitchen. i can use "come on, you have to get up" to move
him out of the way anywhere.

i can tell my dog "down" or "sit" and walk away
and he stays. i often add "stay" to those commands.
in the begining each of those commands were followed
by "stay". i think i did it so much that my dog knows
sit means sit and stay there untill another command
is given. same thing for down. tell your dog to "sit"
and then walk away and see what he does. i think
it's easy for them to hold a "sit" or a "down" without
saying "stay".


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i feel like saying "stay" enforces the command. when i
say "wait" i don't say "wait, stay". :crazy: to me "wait" and
"stay" are close to the samething.

sometimes when i want my dog to "wait" i say "hold it" or
"hold it Loki" and he waits. i also say "hold it" when i give
him something to carry for me. when i say "hold it" when i'm
giving him something to carry he doesn't stand there (as in stay or wait)
he takes whatever it is and heels. lol.



PaddyD said:


> OK, I confess, I didn't read all of the posts so my response may be out of whack.
> It seems like the 'STAY' command is obsolete (with some trainers). If you tell your dog to SIT then he/she should sit until released. Telling them to STAY is redundant. Once they are SITting or DOWNing then they should remain there until released.
> SO, who needs a STAY?
> I use WAIT when we are out-of-doors and that works as a STAY. Other than that, STAY is not needed.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I started to teach Sasha place, but then I realized that I almost never care where she goes; I just want her someplace else, so I use "go lay down." and I start with my hand near my body and point away from me. I also use hand signals, which I have found to be handy in a multitude of situations. She understand that go lay down means she can go anywhere she wants (away from me) and lay down. She knows that Down means right where she is she needs to drop. I think it's personal preference. If I was in the class I'd probably teach place because I was asked to do it and it's not harmful.

I also do sit/stay and down/stay. Just a reinforcer for us.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My African grey tells the dogs to "go lay down" all the time....wonder where he heard that?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

If anything, embrace the fact that you are teaching your dog new things (which is ALWAYS good) and respect the fact that you don't know everything, which is why you are in a training class with someone qualified to help.  Place is a great command!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I started to teach Sasha place, but then I realized that I almost never care where she goes; *I just want her someplace else, so I use "go lay down." *


We do that too!


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

I teach my dog "Blanket" that means get on your bed. I like it nothing wrong with your dog knowing a few new tricks. With blanket I can take my dogs bed anywhere and tell her "blanket" she goes to the bed. It's like teaching a mark. Dogs in tv and movies need to know to go to a mark. So you can turn this command into something kind of fun. Yes "out" is a good command too. 

Hand cues are KEY to teaching a new command. Body language is a dogs first language not the spoken word. Your trainer should know that. So dogs normally pick up on our body cues and hand movements to learn a new command. Once they learn it then you add the word. So I think you are doing that perfectly. 

As for the sit and stay. I agree with the trainer when you give a command the dog should do it and not stop till told to. I use the old word stay when I am walking away. I use stay outside, in the car, at the door. It does not matter what word you use as long as the dog gets it. to always say stay with the sit should not be needed.


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