# Help! Dog Aggression about to drive us insane.



## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

I bought Hugo before he was born and he has been with me since he was 10 weeks old. His dad was from German police lines, and his mother from Czech border patrol. I enrolled him puppy classes almost immediately. He was never a great student..:rolleyes2:He just couldn't pay attention in class with 20 other puppies--He was always trying to break free to run and jump on another pup to play... Class Level 2 was with only 2 other dogs...He still couldn't pay attention because even though they were all in their own corners he could see them and wanted to play. However he learned so fast and eagerly when we were at home with just the two of us. My neighbor and friend had a black lab puppy that is 3 months younger than Hugo and they get along great! We laugh because they're bffs and will pull us to each other's doors when they want to play. We have a cat he was raised with and they get along great as well and even sleep together (when she isn't stealing his entire bed ) He's always loving with people and even the neighbor's barely walking toddler that likes to pull his tongue! Yikes! 

However, when he was about 7 months old I had to fly home for an emergency to see my grandfather. I'd never had to board him and since it was an unexpected trip I hadn't had time to see the facility before my flight left. My neighbor (the owner of Hugo's bff) told me she boarded her lab there almost everyday while she was at work so I went with them. However, when I drove up with Hugo I was less than impressed. It was clean but the kennels were chainlink fenced areas surrounding a middle concrete area that was the "play area". I was told they would let him play with the puppies even though he was large compared to most other puppies. As I left, the garage type door was open on the side and he could see me leave he was howling and I felt horrible. When I came back 5 days later. They told me he was great, and had gotten to play with his bff when he came in for daycare everyday. However his nose was scratched in a couple of places but I chalked it up to playing around the fences. He came home and ended up extremely sick for 3 weeks with major vet bills that the facility covered. The same facility closed less than 3 months later. 

Hugo hasn't been the same since though. He came back and what used to be just extreme interest and desire to play with other dogs had turned into a horrible aggression---(out for blood). I tried to think it was just a phase but he's nearly 2 years old now and it's only gotten worse. He's pulled me down, nearly knocked my husband over, and pulled out of my hands and jumped on the neighbor's Husky in about 1 second flat. We took him to my parents' house and he jumped on their 7 year old GSD and could have easily been killed as he was an immature only 1 year old. He doesn't mind most small dogs. He actually made one other friend (a yorkie mix) at the dog park which surprised me... but for the most part with all Huskies and Bully type breeds he bristles from tip of tail to nose, arches his back, and lunges. He seems fine with most labs though. 

I've heard so much conflicting information about the consequences of neutering and there is a breeder that our vet put us in touch with that would possibly like to use Hugo as a stud in the future if we can get to the bottom of his DA issues--we haven't had him neutered yet. We're a very active family we hike or kayak almost every weekend and it's not feasible for us to board him every weekend--Even though I've found a great boarding facility that loves him and is great with him. He was so aggressive towards another dog on the trail this past weekend that I'm at my wits end. As a last ditch attempt I've scheduled him to be neutered next Tuesday. I've tried so many classes and socialization attempts at parks and with trusted friends' dogs...I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice that might help us out. Thanks in advance.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Are you able to hire a personal, one on one, trainer to witness this and help you correct it?


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Another point I'd like add in case it helps with any advice--- A month or so ago while Hugo was at home and I was running errands I came across an old white GSD. She was limping and running into trees and out into traffic so I pulled over to help her. She was blind, (had both her eyes removed). She was fearful and mistrusting to begin with but I spent the better part of nearly three hours walking behind her and eventually petting and guiding her back to my car. I loaded her up and took her home until I could hopefully locate her owners. I left her in the car while I went inside and put Hugo in his kennel upstairs. We have a baby gate in the kitchen, so I brought her inside put her in the kitchen with water and let her get acquainted with her surroundings before locking her in with the baby gate. Then I went upstairs, put Hugo on his leash and proceeded to the kitchen to attempt a calm introduction. To my very pleasant surprise he looked at her curiously and when I told him it was ok, held him back with one hand and reached over the gate to pet her with the other, he was fine. They introduced and she patiently let him sniff her all over. I don't know what the big difference was other than she was in our house. I know these are long winded and I'm so appreciative of any advice you may have. TIA


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

wyoung2153, I've hired a one-on-one...He said he was experienced with GSD's but he continued to only use rewards for good behavior as Hugo ignored him and literally ran circles around him....after sinking quite a good amount of money into 5 lessons of this I haven't attempted anything else. :/ However, if you can recommend a certain style of training for one-on-one I wouldn't mind looking into it.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I am not experienced per say with this one.. but posting your location (or general vicinity) might help others be able to point you to a credible trainer


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Managing dog aggression is exhausting. Your dog needs a good balance of obedience, correction and reward. You can not fix this without a correction. He needs to know that the behavior will NOT be allowed. 

My advice is find an IPO club and talk to their training director. You need a trainer that understand how to handle aggression, how to shut down the behavior and then reward the good.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You have a dog that was bred to be dominant, suspicious and tough. This is not a golden retriever. Now you need to channel this with a very capable trainer. The internet will not be the way to go with serious behavior issues. I agree with Jax. Fine a good IPO/Schutzhund club, even if it is a couple hours away, and find a good trainer that way. 

Please don't breed this dog!!!!!!! Neutering is a good start and will help with dog on dog aggression. But it won't happen without consistent training that as you suspected needs all quadrants of operant conditioning. Positive rewards are great but with a dog like this, he needs to learn behaviors and then learn that there are consequences too. 

Don't give up with the trainer search. I went through 3 trainers in a year until I found the most awesome trainer. With a dog like this, I would not recommend classes. I would recommend one on one. This dog will not likely become a dog that can be trusted to "play" with other dogs, but hopefully you can work with him to become neutral.

Good luck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zellie&Major said:


> I've heard so much conflicting information about the consequences of neutering and *there is a breeder that our vet put us in touch with that would possibly like to use Hugo as a stud in the future if we can get to the bottom of his DA issues*--we haven't had him neutered yet.


Just my thoughts...this could have been caused by an incident or this could just be genetic. Either way, IMO, any breeder that wants to use a dog aggressive dog for breeding, when in our breed dogs should really just be neutral to other dogs that are not a threat, is not a good breeder. I would not associate with that breeder on that level.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Just my thoughts...this could have been caused by an incident or this could just be genetic. Either way, IMO, any breeder that wants to use a dog aggressive dog for breeding, when in our breed dogs should really just be neutral to other dogs that are not a threat, is not a good breeder. I would not associate with that breeder on that level.


Yes! I would let your vet know that this "breeder" wanted to breed this dog. Vet should not be making such connections.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Isn't necessarily a bad dog but if it was allowed to fence fight and it probably was from the sound of the marks on the dogs muzzle, it was more or less trained to be aggressive.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks wyoung2153, We're currently in Colorado Springs, but we are moving to Columbus, GA in 2 weeks...


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Jax08 and DutchKarin, We've had such a diverse dog community out here, but most of the trainers that I've found are positive reinforcement only---which is great in theory and like you said DutchKarin, they probably works great with a Golden, but he's definitely not a Golden. The organization that we did most of our training with I ended up being very disappointed in...I felt lied to. I'd called before I'd even gotten him yet and asked specific questions about their training with GSDs...They said they could help and seemed excited (which I now wonder if that was because of the perceived notion that GSDs are "easy" to train..) 

The organization primarily is a bully rescue and rehabilitation---which I quickly (but not quickly enough) learned is extremely different from training GSDs. I knew the two dogs are very different in the way that they think and react, but since the trainer that we were using assured me that he had worked his GSDs his entire life I trusted him...until he stood there calling after Hugo while Hugo "flipped him off" dog style by ignoring him and continuing to do exactly what he wanted. The trainer asked me to only reward good behavior with human grade food that quite frankly Hugo couldn't have been less interested in. He's not like his lab friend that eats any and everything no matter what---He's extremely picky and only eats to survive... :/ Will do anything for a tennis ball though, which frustrated the trainer because it takes much longer to reward. 

Anyway, yes, we've had a great opportunity to find great trainers out here, but I some how only found several strictly positive reinforcement trainers that wait until he stops being naughty to reward him (Is it just me or doesn't that seem like that's rewarding him for the bad behavior on his terms??)

So, I'm hopeful that someone can help us find an appropriate/the correct trainer in or around Columbus, GA. TIA


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Knowing what you know about Hugo now, I'm wondering would you still recommend neutering? I've heard some horror stories about how neutering actually made peoples' dogs more aggressive or started aggression in them. I love Hugo and want what's best for him either way. I'm apprehensive because I don't think I can handle any worsening aggression and don't want to make an unreversible mistake. He's just a complete love bug with people of all ages, shapes, and colors...almost too friendly actually!  He never meets a stranger and loves to be "loved on". I don't want to lose that loving nature.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's not rewarding him for bad behavior. But you can't teach a dog if you don't have his attention. Just like kids you have to shut down a behavior with a consequence. I'm all for positive training but it never worked for me with my dog aggressive dog. You need to say NO to them. This behavior is NOT allowed. 

So the positive trainer just waits your dog out? No behavior modification? No LAT? No BAT? Just stands there and waits? Meanwhile, his behavior has scared all the other dogs away. So he's learned that when he behaves that way, he gets what he wants...the other dogs to go away and he gains confidence. I bet his reaction is exponentially worse than when all this first started.

Managing this is a two-fold solution. Shut down the reaction. Modify the behavior. It also highly depends on YOUR body language and learning HIS body language.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Yeah, he would just wait him out...kinda frustrating to watch. And you're right Jax08...it is much worse... I tried to do everything right by Hugo, especially because our other 2 shepherds that our parents now have (they became "too attached" when my husband was in almost 2 years of training with Army and they couldn't live with us.) didn't have the opportunity for as extensive training...I really wanted to do it right with Hugo. It's just so discouraging and heartbreaking to feel like I didn't catch this in time to do right by him with this.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

I've done my own research on both mine and his body language. I will admit I was making some mistakes in the beginning by tensing when I saw other dogs approaching. But now I've learned to control my own reactions and actually portray that the approaching dog is ok and makes me happy and I do see a slight change in Hugo for the better. He now at least hesitates before going bananas....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's really hard to not tense up.  I totally feel your pain. Look up LAT and BAT. If he hesitates for just a moment then that is the minute you need to do the behavior modification. If he's already in the reaction then that is when the correction happens. And work within his threshold. Don't take him in the middle of dogs and try to do a behavior modification. IT takes times to work your way closer.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Managing dog aggression is exhausting. Your dog needs a good balance of obedience, correction and reward. You can not fix this without a correction. He needs to know that the behavior will NOT be allowed.
> 
> My advice is find an IPO club and talk to their training director. You need a trainer that understand how to handle aggression, how to shut down the behavior and then reward the good.


I like this advice. I have been dealing with much the same ever since the pup turned about 6-8 months. Three fence charging dogs which I share the fence with made things worse in my opinion along with me being an idiot and not stopping my dog's behavior in it's tracks when it would engage with the dogs at the fence....lesson learned. I chose to deal with the problem ( professionally ) after a few months of my own efforts ( shooting from the hip ). I started with the counter conditioning and desensitizing approach and started to see some positive results but not enough, so I went to some reactive dog classes and felt the classes were mostly a waste of time and money. I finally broke down and hired another trainer who would educate me on the use of an e collar and this is where the tide really started to change.

Jax08's words " Your dog needs a good balance of obedience, correction and reward." IMHO are accurate and the only thing I might add is, besides a "good balance" the dog also needs lots and lots of obedience accompanied with the rest. 

I just got back from a bike ride with the dog and this guy who has a chocolate lab tethered out front allows me to proof my dog in his yard while the lab is hanging out. Today, I was within 15 feet of the lab and my girl executed the commands given and seemed more at ease than I have seen her yet....perhaps she has figured the dog out but more importantly I noticed my dog shooting calming signals at the lab which I thought was a minor victory. 

The e collar training, I do believe taught her that there were consequences if she opted to become a snarling lunging freakshow BUT more importantly, the increased obedience and her adherence to my commands while on lead close to other dogs is really what is beating the problem. As I have said before, I may not be able to train my dog to "like" other dogs while on leash but I sure as **** can train her to ignore other dogs and focus on me while making good choices. The beauty of this process...so it seems...is, the additional obedience and focus on me has allowed my dog to be in the environment which used to make her lose her crap. Now, just by being in the same environment but obeying me, she has found she can exist without all her fear manifesting itself. I know it might sound cocky but I think my dog's better behavior is because she trusts me and I expect her to obey my commands more than ever...she relies on me now and not her impulses from her fear/aggression. 

One last thought, I couldn't agree more with Jax08's words " Managing dog aggression is exhausting."....however, in hindsight, I could have been smarter and more proactive when I first saw this behavior starting to surface.

Just read another Jax08 reply.....yes, working below threshold is huge in the process.

SuperG


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks Jax08, I feel like I'm probably doing some LAT and BAT without knowing that was what I was doing... I'll have to really start being more disciplined with using the actual tactics.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

And thank you SuperG! It's nice to hear I'm not the only one with a dog crazy pup! I actually ordered an e-collar online after a particularly frustrating walk one day--- I researched on how to train with it and I've had hit or miss success...I did notice if he was already snarling and lunging that it didn't matter if I used the lowest, highest, or vibration setting...it only seemed to make him more angry and determined.  I'm probably like you were at this point and just needing a professional. I just hate that it's come to this. I'm so glad that you've had such great progress---There's hope!  

Hugo does need obedience help and that's probably more on me---He knows all of his commands but I can ask him to do them 5 times without a reaction, but if I hold up a tennis ball on the 6th time he does it without hesitation....:smirk: He has been getting better about initiating the fights though...if we're on a walk, he'll see another dog across the street or park and instead of losing it right then and there he'll stop and stare intently as they walk past and be fine if they ignore him...If they bark however, he's all for finishing it..  

I've heard all of this could be fear or aggression or protection... or just looking for a fight...I'm not sure which one or which ones that we're dealing with. I've also heard that because he's solid black that other dogs can't read his facial expressions and because of that they get scared and react negatively which in turn makes him react negatively to their reaction...catch 22. I guess this is where a trainer would be helpful. 

I'll be working more with a threshold mentality---I haven't really tried that consciously yet. Thank you for the great advice and letting me know there is hope!


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Also, has anyone heard or experienced anything relating to the stories that I've heard about neutering making their dog more aggressive? I'd just really like some input on that before I take him in on Tuesday and possibly make a mistake.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Please do not use that e-collar without help. An e-collar is not to be used for aggression. It can increase aggression if the dog things the other dog is causing the stim. I used one but did so under the instruction of a trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have not read a single study on neutering making a male dog more aggressive. It may help. However, I will say that it may also do nothing. Neutering will not change a basic personality trait, especially if this is genetic.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Jax08, I'm not a trainer, but I did a ton or research and talked to trainers before using the e-collar. I even tested all 7 settings on myself beforehand so I would know what I was using on him. I know there is still a lot that I could learn about it but I'm not being negligent with it. Thank you for the concern though. I know it would frighten me too if I didn't know how someone was using or that they knew how to use an e-collar on such a sensitive breed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> *I have not read a single study on neutering making a male dog more aggressive.* It may help. However, I will say that it may also do nothing. Neutering will not change a basic personality trait, especially if this is genetic.


I haven't heard that either. It's not going to be a magic fix, but it shouldn't hurt and it may help, at least a little. 

I've had several females but only one male so far, and I had him neutered at 15 months old. His behavior prior to that wasn't a problem, but as he matured I was noticing that OTHER dogs were reacting differently towards _him_. I had planned to have it done sometime between one and two years old, and that change was what prompted me to go ahead rather than waiting longer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Zellie&Major said:


> Jax08, I'm not a trainer, but I did a ton or research and talked to trainers before using the e-collar. I even tested all 7 settings on myself beforehand so I would know what I was using on him. I know there is still a lot that I could learn about it but I'm not being negligent with it. Thank you for the concern though. I know it would frighten me too if I didn't know how someone was using or that they knew how to use an e-collar on such a sensitive breed.


I didn't say you are negligent. I'm saying it takes very precise timing. I apologize for making the suggestion. I'm sure you have it all figured out.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

And I'm not sold on it being genetic...that's why I'm nervous about neutering. None of this happened until after he spent time at the kennel that I had such a bad feeling about. I'm afraid his 7 month old self may have been scared and possibly attacked. They told me they would put him in with the puppies, but he was 75 lbs and still liked to play rough like puppies do... I'm not sure that I believe that they didn't actually place him in with the big dogs. It was an emergency situation or I never would have left him there. I had a bad feeling about it and when I drove up the dog group that was out "playing" in the circular main area was unsupervised and surrounded by the other dog group that was in their chain link "kennels". I asked my neighbor to check on him when she brought her dog for daycare and she did twice, but she couldn't be there all the time. The facility reminded me of a dog fighting type arena...circular middle "play area" with the chain kennels surrounding it---no edge/boundary/ or separation between the play area and kennel doors...so I imagine that "rest time" for one group was never really restful.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Jax08, Thank you, but I still have so much to learn--I'll always be learning---far from having it all figured out.  That's why I do appreciate all of the advice and input so much.


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## Zellie&Major (Mar 21, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom, I wish I would have done it before this started too! I've always planned to do it right before or after 2 years...I just wish I could have either changed a couple of things that he was exposed to and/or done it sooner. Hopefully this will help some. Thank you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zellie&Major said:


> I had a bad feeling about it and when I drove up the dog group that was out "playing" in the circular main area was unsupervised and surrounded by the other dog group that was in their chain link "kennels". I asked my neighbor to check on him when she brought her dog for daycare and she did twice, but she couldn't be there all the time. The facility reminded me of a dog fighting type arena...circular middle "play area" with the chain kennels surrounding it---no edge/boundary/ or separation between the play area and kennel doors...so I imagine that "rest time" for one group was never really restful.


It sounds like this environment is practically designed for barrier frustration. For some dogs it may not be a problem, but I'd bet on this being the catalyst for the issues you're having now. Here's a pretty good article that talks about barrier frustration, which can manifest in many ways - leash frustration/aggression, fence fighting, barking at people that walk past the window at your house or a car window, etc. The Dog Trainer : Redirected Aggression and Barrier Frustration :: Quick and Dirty Tips ?

Since he's almost 2, I would personally go ahead and neuter him. I just don't see any downside to doing so at this time. Hormones aren't causing this problem, but they could be exacerbating it.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Zellie&Major said:


> J I even tested all 7 settings on myself beforehand so I would know what I was using on him. /QUOTE]
> 
> Hmmmmmmm....the highest setting didn't light you up???? On my e collar the dial goes to a 100 and to be fair, I tested it with the probes on my neck since that's where the dog would feel it. I decided enough was around 20 but I could handle a 20 on the palm of my hand no problem.
> 
> ...


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## Ozzieleuk (Mar 23, 2014)

Zellie&Major,

Your Hugo has been in some kind of fight with another dog; outcome must not have been good for him.
I had the exact incident happen to me with my previous male GSD Scooter. He was a pup and introduced to my then 10 year old male GSD. King did not like the idea of a puppy in the family that always climbed and chewed on him. One day King turned on little 7 month old Scooter and pulled a chunk of hair out of his neck. After that day
Scooter was very different and became very aggressive to other dogs.
He got better after about 2 years, but still didn't like other dogs around the family after that.

How is your Hugo around his buddy the black lab? If they are still OK with each other, then you have something to work with. You may need a couple of lessons with a one-on-one trainer. 
A couple hundred bucks is better now than a mortally wounded dog later or worse...catch it now and try to get Hugo some help.

Forget about neutering; unless there is a female in heat close by.
Neutering will do nothing with his aggression to other dogs.
My male GSD King lived (intact) to age 13 with zero problems. He wasn't touchy feely with other dogs, but King would not attack another dog either.

I would get a soft muzzle now for Hugo if you are out and about on the trail just in case he runs into another dog. That's a safe and cheap way to handle him right now.

Hope things work out; keep us posted.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Just my thoughts...this could have been caused by an incident or this could just be genetic. Either way, IMO, any breeder that wants to use a dog aggressive dog for breeding, when in our breed dogs should really just be neutral to other dogs that are not a threat, is not a good breeder. I would not associate with that breeder on that level.


I agree, and also, if he is so sensitive that the experience ruined him for life, he should not be bred.

I truly doubt that neutering would make any difference. On the contrary, some say the neutering will make an insecure dog even more aggressive.

Definitely find a trainer who can look and see what's going on, but I have a feeling this is who he is and you are going to have to manage and live with this.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure if you've visited Lou Castles site researching ecollar use, but if you haven't you should check it out, lots of helpful info and Lou is also a forum member. Here's a link to his site.
Home


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't know what kind of e-collar you have, I have a dogtra 1900 and it has 127 levels ... I know I tried a different kind (it had 5 levels) and quite frankly I hated it. Level 1 was useless and Level 2 nailed her butt ... not quite the reaction I was looking for!

The dogtra 1900 (or at least at e-collar with a wide range) is a much better tool so you can find the perfect working level for your dog. 

Just my two cents!


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