# Aggression towards owners



## Jamie Lynn

I wrote on here about a year ago about my dog growling at me. It started first when he would just growl at us if he was injured. Then he started growling when he was mad like if we left him alone. When we came back he growled. We had to move in march to Indiana which made things worse and now we are in florida for 6 weeks and he's growling more than ever and actually bit my husband one week ago. We had left him alone for 3 hours and when we came back he was very excited to see us, but growled at me when he was "saying hi to my husband" then my husband put his arm out to keep him away from me and my dog bit him. I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out, but he did. He gets a lot of exercise, we do some training everyday, he's never been abused or anything like that. We are thinking about neutering. I have read/heard many different opinions on what to do in this situation and was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same.


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## David Winners

Can you post video of this growling? That would make it much easier to diagnose. How severe was the bite?


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## Jamie Lynn

The bite wasn't severe it barely left a mark. I don't have a video of his growl but it varies. Usually he gives low growls, but if he is in his crate and you get close to his crate he will growl viciously. He's never growled at anyone else just my husband and i


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## LuvShepherds

When it happened a year ago what did you do to stop it? Have you used a trainer? If not, why did you allow it to escalate? This isn’t a criticism but without knowing how you addressed it, we won’t know what might or might not work.


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## David Winners

Jamie Lynn said:


> The bite wasn't severe it barely left a mark. I don't have a video of his growl but it varies. Usually he gives low growls, but if he is in his crate and you get close to his crate he will growl viciously. He's never growled at anyone else just my husband and i


Ok


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## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> When it happened a year ago what did you do to stop it? Have you used a trainer? If not, why did you allow it to escalate? This isn’t a criticism but without knowing how you addressed it, we won’t know what might or might not work.


Yes we've had a trainer since he was 3 months when we first got him. Our trainer things we should severely correct him with the prong collar when he does this. However that makes him more aggressive. Another dog trainer said we should shock him when he does this and that seems to work better, but it is hard to carry around the remote because for a while it was like once a month or less he'd do this


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## Chip Blasiole

You are either going to have to punish the dog with an attitude of leadership or the dog has a temperament issue. It is very difficult to assess on a forum. Some dogs need to have their booties kicked because they have been allowed to get away with too much and if that is the case you are probably not good at booty kicking or this problem would not have developed. My dog assed up on me a few times and I immediately went into obedience mode and snapped him out of it without conflict and haven’t had any more issues. But you need a strong foundation of obedience to fall back on which might be a big part of the problem.


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## Jamie Lynn

Chip Blasiole said:


> You are either going to have to punish the dog with an attitude of leadership or the dog has a temperament issue. It is very difficult to assess on a forum. Some dogs need to have their booties kicked because they have been allowed to get away with too much and if that is the case you are probably not good at booty kicking or this problem would not have developed. My dog assed up on me a few times and I immediately went into obedience mode and snapped him out of it without conflict and haven’t had any more issues. But you need a strong foundation of obedience to fall back on which might be a big part of the problem.


I can get him to snap out of it by telling him to heel which he does. He is very obedient and has been working on schutzhund obedience his entire life. 

in the past that was what I used to do, redirect him, put him in a heel and then he'd snap out of it. But then a few weeks later he'd get pissed about something and growl at either me or my husband.


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## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> I can get him to snap out of it by telling him to heel which he does. He is very obedient and has been working on schutzhund obedience his entire life.
> 
> in the past that was what I used to do, redirect him, put him in a heel and then he'd snap out of it. But then a few weeks later he'd get pissed about something and growl at either me or my husband.


Do you have a pedigree for this dog that you'd be willing to share ?


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## Chip Blasiole

Call him to heel and then down. Step away. Do you have a release command?


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## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> Do you have a pedigree for this dog that you'd be willing to share ?


Yes, I attached images


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> Yes we've had a trainer since he was 3 months when we first got him. Our trainer things we should severely correct him with the prong collar when he does this. However that makes him more aggressive. Another dog trainer said we should shock him when he does this and that seems to work better, but it is hard to carry around the remote because for a while it was like once a month or less he'd do this


If I were you I would get a new trainer. I'm not opposed to punishment or corrections done properly but both of these suggestions are horrible.


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## Steve Strom

What was the training like, to become a personal protection dog?





Muck Von Der Bleu Haus


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Muck Von Der Bleu Haus




www.pedigreedatabase.com




Without a doubt there's some conflict between you guys and him, probably a little issue with trust. I'd take a look at some things you may not have thought about to try and figure it out. I'm not implying anything terrible, but it could be something as simple as the way you play tug or crate him getting you to this point.


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> If I were you I would get a new trainer. I'm not opposed to punishment or corrections done properly but both of these suggestions are horrible.


Yeah, I didn't agree with it either. We are going to take him to a behaviorist when we leave Florida in 2 weeks


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> Yeah, I didn't agree with it either. We are going to take him to a behaviorist when we leave Florida in 2 weeks


I don't think you need a behaviorist, but I think you do need a trainer. I am not sure what is going on but it sounds like the relationship between you and your dog is a bit broken. 
Lots of people on here have good trainer suggestions depending on your area.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> What was the training like, to become a personal protection dog?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muck Von Der Bleu Haus
> 
> 
> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Muck Von Der Bleu Haus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without a doubt there's some conflict between you guys and him, probably a little issue with trust. I'd take a look at some things you may not have thought about to try and figure it out. I'm not implying anything terrible, but it could be something as simple as the way you play tug or crate him getting you to this point.


His dad is Muck, mine has not been trained as a personal protection dog. The only thing i can think of that we've done that he really doesn't like is leaving him alone. He hates when either of us leave and if we both do that is the worst for him. He will cry if one of us starts walking away


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> I don't think you need a behaviorist, but I think you do need a trainer. I am not sure what is going on but it sounds like the relationship between you and your dog is a bit broken.
> Lots of people on here have good trainer suggestions depending on your area.


Thanks, we are going to be in the Indianapolis area until there is a covid vaccine and then we will be back to nyc where we lived until March. Our dog grew up in nyc until march so he had tons of socialization.


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## WNGD

I'm sure you must know this but there's never an excuse to growl, let alone bite just because "I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out"

Why the heck shouldn't he have put his arm out? How old was the dog when it first growled at you, how often/regularly does it happen and how old is the dog now?


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## Steve Strom

Ahh, I see you posted the 2 pedigrees of the parents. I missed one. Think about how how your reaction to how he acts when you walk away could be perceived by him. Excitement, or anger in you? Its his perception of it. Corrections in training? They can have their own idea of fair that leads to this. The reason I'm saying put some time into this side of things is that if you go the kicking booty route, you have to take that to a clear and decisive conclusion. I agree with SM on the behaviorist too. That tends to be too much of a "Lets bribe them out of it" and I don't think that helps.


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## Steve Strom

> We are thinking about neutering. I have read/heard many different opinions on what to do in this situation and was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same.


You can't remove testosterone from a male and not change something. I think the results come down to the individual dog and what his actual temperament is. Maybe an insecure dog becomes more insecure? Maybe a dog with a little edge to him, comes down a couple of pegs like you may want. Its not a cure all the way it can be presented, but it can soften them up a bit. I've seen that clearly with a couple of Rotts including one of mine.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> I'm sure you must know this but there's never an excuse to growl, let alone bite just because "I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out"
> 
> Why the heck shouldn't he have put his arm out? How old was the dog when it first growled at you, how often/regularly does it happen and how old is the dog now?


His first growling episode was a year ago when he was 1.5. He is now 2.5. 

Agreed growling is never okay. But my dog growled at me and then put his arm between me and the dog. 

So he was going to get bit that is why I said he shouldn't have done that.

My dog acts like he wants my husband to himself sometimes, that is why he growled at me bc I walked past them when the dog was all excited to see my husband.

It used to happen once a month or less, but now is like once a week recently.


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## Max’s Owner

Vet check? Have you had bloodwork done on him?


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## Jamie Lynn

Yeah, normal bloodwork


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## Max’s Owner

Jamie Lynn said:


> Yeah, normal bloodwork


Thyroid checked?


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## Jamie Lynn

Max’s Owner said:


> Thyroid checked?


Yeah, normal T4


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## tim_s_adams

germanshepherddog.info said:


> Are German shepherds really Dangerous? I don't think so.
> Here is an article on the same.


What an absolutely ignorant, and stupid article!


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## WNGD

germanshepherddog.info said:


> REMOVED BY MODERATOR (SPAM).


You identified yourself as a blogger with dog tips earlier. Is this your article?


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> You identified yourself as a blogger with dog tips earlier. Is this your article?


No, I don't know where I identified myself as a blogger with dog tips.


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## Heartandsoul

Here is the pedigree. For some reason it didn’t come up via regular google search so I grabbed it via her dams progeny list:





__





Hana Vom Hobbs Haus


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Hana Vom Hobbs Haus




www.pedigreedatabase.com





I’m with Sabis mom in that maybe the training tools alone aren’t what is going to change this dog’s mind about things. If you have or already are using these tools and still have the problem even just every once in a while, then either the tools aren’t being used properly or the crux of the issue is not being addressed.

At 2.5 years there seems to be a leadership issue going on in his mind.

Just some thoughts but no insight on how to proceed other than find a balanced trainer who can see her at home at her worst.


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## Jamie Lynn

I do have an instagram with pictures and videos of him. None displaying aggresion. Below is a video of him practicing for to carry the flower basket in our wedding. He's practicing here with my mom, even though the flower girl ended up handling him for the event. He did great with both of them. His instagram is @LorenzoTitak









New video by Jamie Titak







photos.app.goo.gl


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## Heartandsoul

It is a nice video and a beautiful girl but it does not show what is needed to help you with your issues. I think you need to stay on track to get through this.. see if you can capture the misbehaviors to post.


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> No, I don't know where I identified myself as a blogger with dog tips.


 Site glitched. It was 
*germanshepherddog.info*


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## Jamie Lynn

Thanks, Yeah I agree, I just wanted to show a video of him so that people know he has done extensive training. Lorenzo is an intact male, so the vet and a behaviorist are pushing for him to be neutered, but based on the upenn 2018 reseach i don't think that will help and could actually make things worse. 

I do think one area where i lapsed was when he first started the growling I was so surprised and honestly scared that i didn't treat it the same way i do with other negative behaviors he did. Like I just didn't make it clear enough to him. Be he is otherwise obedient. I'm not afraid of him anymore though.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> Site glitched. It was
> *germanshepherddog.info*


I think someone else posted that article or website. I have no affiliation with it


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## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks, Yeah I agree, I just wanted to show a video of him so that people know he has done extensive training. Lorenzo is an intact male, so the vet and a behaviorist are pushing for him to be neutered, but based on the upenn 2018 reseach i don't think that will help and could actually make things worse.
> 
> I do think one area where i lapsed was when he first started the growling I was so surprised and honestly scared that i didn't treat it the same way i do with other negative behaviors he did. Like I just didn't make it clear enough to him. Be he is otherwise obedient. I'm not afraid of him anymore though.


Thanks for the pedigree Jamie. It sounds like you have a good dog and just need to learn how to handle him. I am guessing that this dog has very good natural protection too.

I can tell you by looking at the pedigree that there is a genetic predisposition for "handler aggression" in these lines. I think you said 15 months is when it started which sounds just about right. You may or may not have reinforced some of these behaviors but only you can really know that.

I'm just heading out the door right know but I'll give you a few other thoughts when I come back.

Does your dog ever tuck his tail ?
Lower thresholds for triggering defense, sharp, reactive ?


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## Jamie Lynn

Thanks! He doesn't ever tuck his tail that I have noticed. And i don't think he is a reactive dog, he will bark if something is out of place, but will stop if I tell him. He grew up in Manhattan in nyc, so he has seen it all.


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## wolfstraum

To me - this dog is loaded to the gills with what I call "red flags" - serious aggression, screw you attitudes........a product of a bunch of commercial breeders selling puppies to anyone with cash who then set themselves up as breeders! I spent an evening sitting with the owner and breeder of a very very well known dog in this pedigee in 2nd (?) generation on one pedigree....He told me - and showed me - scars where the dog came at him - causing trips to hospital not once, but three times.....that dog's sire is line bred in the final pup, and is generally acknowledged to produce this kind of aggression in a percentage of his progeny and on down....and there are 3 other dogs also who are red flags....when you roll them all up in one dog if they shake out, you have a firecracker waiting to bang. I went back only 5 generations and was shaking my head in wonder that people do these breedings without considering what they are pairing.

Sorry - I am sure that this dog can be trained to be controllable - but this is not a pedigree that should be offered to any and all buyers as a companion dog.

Lee


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## Jax08

Indianapolis area??? Call Mike Diehl and get some real help. Trust his evaluation of your dog. 








Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC | z Diehlomov | German Shepherd


Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC., and z Diehlomov is where I promote my lifelong passion, the working German Shepherd Dog.




www.diehlspolicek9training.com





btw...a dog's owner should be able to stick their arm out without getting bit.


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## Jamie Lynn

Thank you for the honesty, which dogs in his lineage are the problem dogs? Is there anywhere I can do more research to learn more about his lineage? Or do you just know from experience? With a dog like this should I neuter him? Never allow him on the bed? 
I'm sad bc my previous dog was a fear aggressive shelter dog that was aggressive to strangers and i spent thousands trying to fix him with training, behaviorists ect, but had to put him down at 6 years old. So I asked the breader if before I bought him if he had any aggression in his lineage and she said no. 
I haven't given up hope though yet, he's a great dog otherwise and the problem so far is manageable.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jax08 said:


> Indianapolis area??? Call Mike Diehl and get some real help. Trust his evaluation of your dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC | z Diehlomov | German Shepherd
> 
> 
> Diehl's Police K9 Training Center, LLC., and z Diehlomov is where I promote my lifelong passion, the working German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diehlspolicek9training.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw...a dog's owner should be able to stick their arm out without getting bit.


Thank you just messaged him! I agree that someone should be able to stick their arm out without getting bit


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> I think someone else posted that article or website. I have no affiliation with it


I'll try again to be clear. It was the poster who calls himself germanshepherddog. info above that posted the article and previously indentified himself as a dog tip blogger. I was asking him if he wrote the article, not you.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> I'll try again to be clear. It was the poster who calls himself germanshepherddog. info above that posted the article and previously indentified himself as a dog tip blogger. I was asking him if he wrote the article, not you.


Ok, sorry, got it now


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Ok, sorry, got it now


No problem, I tried to delete my post that referred to OP but the site wouldn't let me and below that is where I asked the correct poster but he hasn't answered


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## wolfstraum

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thank you for the honesty, which dogs in his lineage are the problem dogs? Is there anywhere I can do more research to learn more about his lineage? Or do you just know from experience? With a dog like this should I neuter him? Never allow him on the bed?
> I'm sad bc my previous dog was a fear aggressive shelter dog that was aggressive to strangers and i spent thousands trying to fix him with training, behaviorists etc., but had to put him down at 6 years old. So I asked the breeder if before I bought him if he had any aggression in his lineage and she said no.
> I haven't given up hope though yet, he's a great dog otherwise and the problem so far is manageable.



The problem is that everyone gets all upset and hurt and rushes to defend the named dog.....too many do NOT UNDERSTAND the *concept* of "red flags" and genetics that are passed forward to some but not all descendants of said named dog....experienced people who train and trial and compete often have these dogs in their pedigrees - but they expect a different type of behavior, treat the dog differently and *IF* - *a BIG IF!!!! - *the dog does not express the genetics get very very very resentful of the negatives of their dog's grandfather (or whatever) being criticized..... Therefore, I do NOT publicly dissect any pedigree by naming dogs! 

For ONE dog in the pedigree - his breeder/owner/handler told me about 3 visits to the hospital from the dog coming at him....the dog was still winning and scoring well in competition and many admired him....that is the difference in pet dogs and breeders who work dogs and whose goals are competition. And the Germans are much more open, realistic and honest about these types of things.....every one I have ever sat and talked to has given me the goods and bads of their own and other highly successful dogs they know in Europe.


Lee


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## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks! He doesn't ever tuck his tail that I have noticed. And i don't think he is a reactive dog, he will bark if something is out of place, but will stop if I tell him. He grew up in Manhattan in nyc, so he has seen it all.


Just to give you a few of my random thoughts. And I should mention that every dog is different and what works for me may not work for you:

- I agree with other posters that you don't need a behaviorist but a balanced trainer that understands these issues

- agree with Jax on Mike Diehl. If you can get this guy to help you that would be great.

- I also agree with Lee, that this breeder is irresponsible. Because it doesn't sound like you asked for this type of dog.

- agree this could be leadership issues too

- in my experience with handler aggression that bite your husband got was a "warning bite/correction bite" and it can and has escalated to Real damaging bites

- I personally don't like to correct a dog physically, that I know will bite and is handler aggressive, for growling. I prefer to manage that behavior through obedience. For example, if my dog growls at me when he's tired and cranky, I'll tell him "enough". If he continues, I'll tell him in stern voice to "go" and point to the other room. Then I'll tell him to stay there for ten minute time out. After ten minutes or so I'll tell him free. I don't want to extinguish the growling because this is a warning and I know my dog isn't bluffing when he growls - this makes reading him easy.

- What really helps with dealing with this type of dog is being able to read their behavior and knowing the things that trigger them. eg, When my dog is agitated, the first thing you'll see is stiffening body posture and his tail starts to raise over the back. When I see his tail move I know he's getting agitated. And shortly after his tail moves you'll get a growl or lip lift. Knowing theses things allows you to anticipate behavior before it happens.

- If I was in your situation right now, based on the limited information, I would keep this dog on a "choker" collar and drag leash until things straighten out a bit. If I were to get bit I would have a way to correct the dog hard.
Keep in mind, if you do correct the dog by choking, and he has good fight drive and high anger, he will probably escalate and you need to be very firm. You have to have absolute confidence you will win the fight. And another point is to NOT get angry. You want to remain unemotional and robotic as possible.

- also, even after winning a fight some dogs will not submit to the hardest of corrections and will still bite you in the future no matter what you do. And if you keep fighting your dog you aren't going to have much of a relationship either. That is why it sometimes better to outsmart the dog by not putting him in situations that cause conflict to begin with. These dogs demand mutual respect. Now, I'm not really sure what type of dog you really have and that's why you need someone capable to analyze your dog in the flesh.

- from what you said I don't think you have the type of dog that is going to outright attack you if you can get a handle of what is going on right now. But by the sounds of it, you really need someone very experienced to help you in person.

- you sound like you want to try and stick it out with this dog and I think that is great. I will tell you that these type of dogs will force you to become a better handler and increase your knowledge.

- anyways, if you want me to send you a couple of links to help you begin to understand pedigrees I can PM them to you if you want... might take me a day or two to find the links.

- oh, and it is also important to know that just because a dog may have a genetic propensity for handler aggression it may not manifest if it was handled by someone different. And on the other hand, even very experienced dog handlers can have issues with handler aggression.

All the best to you.



-


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfstraum said:


> The problem is that everyone gets all upset and hurt and rushes to defend the named dog.....too many do NOT UNDERSTAND the *concept* of "red flags" and genetics that are passed forward to some but not all descendants of said named dog....experienced people who train and trial and compete often have these dogs in their pedigrees - but they expect a different type of behavior, treat the dog differently and *IF* - *a BIG IF!!!! - *the dog does not express the genetics get very very very resentful of the negatives of their dog's grandfather (or whatever) being criticized..... Therefore, I do NOT publicly dissect any pedigree by naming dogs!
> 
> For ONE dog in the pedigree - his breeder/owner/handler told me about 3 visits to the hospital from the dog coming at him....the dog was still winning and scoring well in competition and many admired him....that is the difference in pet dogs and breeders who work dogs and whose goals are competition. And the Germans are much more open, realistic and honest about these types of things.....every one I have ever sat and talked to has given me the goods and bads of their own and other highly successful dogs they know in Europe.
> 
> 
> Lee


Thank you, totally understand. If you feel comfortable private messaging me the names that would be helpful, just so that I can learn more about my dog and the german shepherd pedigree in general. That way next time I purchase a dog I will be able to make a more educated decision. I will keep it to myself as I do not want to create drama for anyone, I just want to learn.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> Just to give you a few of my random thoughts. And I should mention that every dog is different and what works for me may not work for you:
> 
> - I agree with other posters that you don't need a behaviorist but a balanced trainer that understands these issues
> 
> - agree with Jax on Mike Diehl. If you can get this guy to help you that would be great.
> 
> - I also agree with Lee, that this breeder is irresponsible. Because it doesn't sound like you asked for this type of dog.
> 
> - agree this could be leadership issues too
> 
> - in my experience with handler aggression that bite your husband got was a "warning bite/correction bite" and it can and has escalated to Real damaging bites
> 
> - I personally don't like to correct a dog physically, that I know will bite and is handler aggressive, for growling. I prefer to manage that behavior through obedience. For example, if my dog growls at me when he's tired and cranky, I'll tell him "enough". If he continues, I'll tell him in stern voice to "go" and point to the other room. Then I'll tell him to stay there for ten minute time out. After ten minutes or so I'll tell him free. I don't want to extinguish the growling because this is a warning and I know my dog isn't bluffing when he growls - this makes reading him easy.
> 
> - What really helps with dealing with this type of dog is being able to read their behavior and knowing the things that trigger them. eg, When my dog is agitated, the first thing you'll see is stiffening body posture and his tail starts to raise over the back. When I see his tail move I know he's getting agitated. And shortly after his tail moves you'll get a growl or lip lift. Knowing theses things allows you to anticipate behavior before it happens.
> 
> - If I was in your situation right now, based on the limited information, I would keep this dog on a "choker" collar and drag leash until things straighten out a bit. If I were to get bit I would have a way to correct the dog hard.
> Keep in mind, if you do correct the dog by choking, and he has good fight drive and high anger, he will probably escalate and you need to be very firm. You have to have absolute confidence you will win the fight. And another point is to NOT get angry. You want to remain unemotional and robotic as possible.
> 
> - also, even after winning a fight some dogs will not submit to the hardest of corrections and will still bite you in the future no matter what you do. And if you keep fighting your dog you aren't going to have much of a relationship either. That is why it sometimes better to outsmart the dog by not putting him in situations that cause conflict to begin with. These dogs demand mutual respect. Now, I'm not really sure what type of dog you really have and that's why you need someone capable to analyze your dog in the flesh.
> 
> - from what you said I don't think you have the type of dog that is going to outright attack you if you can get a handle of what is going on right now. But by the sounds of it, you really need someone very experienced to help you in person.
> 
> - you sound like you want to try and stick it out with this dog and I think that is great. I will tell you that these type of dogs will force you to become a better handler and increase your knowledge.
> 
> - anyways, if you want me to send you a couple of links to help you begin to understand pedigrees I can PM them to you if you want... might take me a day or two to find the links.
> 
> - oh, and it is also important to know that just because a dog may have a genetic propensity for handler aggression it may not manifest if it was handled by someone different. And on the other hand, even very experienced dog handlers can have issues with handler aggression.
> 
> All the best to you.
> 
> 
> 
> -


Thanks this was super helpful! I'd love the links to learn more about his pedigree. Mike Diehl has agreed to help me when I get back to Indiana in two weeks so that is great news. 

I can usually read him pretty well and know when he is in an "off" mood. I have started doing what you said about the growling where if he growls i put him in the bathroom for a timeout, which honestly is worse than a physical correction for him because he HATES separation. How often does your dog growl at you?

I do agree that he is not the type of dog at this moment that will outright attack us. He usually wants to de-escalate the situation by going to his crate. I've been trying to put him in the bathroom instead bc I don't want him to associate his crate with punishment since he does have separation anxiety and screams, howls and barks for like 20 mins when we leave.

His bad behavior only happens in the house and only with my husband or I. For example whenever we take him out he is a perfect angel for the most part. He's good with dogs and strangers, he will lay down and let the little dogs play with him, which I have been told is not common for these types of dogs.


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## David Winners

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks this was super helpful! I'd love the links to learn more about his pedigree. Mike Diehl has agreed to help me when I get back to Indiana in two weeks so that is great news.
> 
> I can usually read him pretty well and know when he is in an "off" mood. I have started doing what you said about the growling where if he growls i put him in the bathroom for a timeout, which honestly is worse than a physical correction for him because he HATES separation. How often does your dog growl at you?
> 
> I do agree that he is not the type of dog at this moment that will outright attack us. He usually wants to de-escalate the situation by going to his crate. I've been trying to put him in the bathroom instead bc I don't want him to associate his crate with punishment since he does have separation anxiety and screams, howls and barks for like 20 mins when we leave.
> 
> His bad behavior only happens in the house and only with my husband or I. For example whenever we take him out he is a perfect angel for the most part. He's good with dogs and strangers, he will lay down and let the little dogs play with him, which I have been told is not common for these types of dogs.


I'm glad you got in touch with Mike. He's top notch.

I'd still like to see some video if you have the opportunity.


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## Jax08

You're in good hands with Mike. Please update the thread after you start working with him. I would just keep him crated and managed until you see Mike. Asking for input online at this point will just cause a conflict of information.

btw...I found your breeder online. That was not a good breeder at all. Doesn't mean your dog can't be trained and managed, just that there wasn't any thought in the breed pairings.


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## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> I'm glad you got in touch with Mike. He's top notch.
> 
> I'd still like to see some video if you have the opportunity.


Thanks, I don't have great videos, these are from June and each situation would have descalted sooner, but I wanted to get him on camera. I don't have any more recent videos bc the episode is much shorter.









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Here we tried to use a prong collar to do a correction for growling, but that seems to make him worse.









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This is in his crate and he has only been like this in his crate. I only sat in front of his crate like this to get video.









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## Jamie Lynn

Jax08 said:


> You're in good hands with Mike. Please update the thread after you start working with him. I would just keep him crated and managed until you see Mike. Asking for input online at this point will just cause a conflict of information.
> 
> btw...I found your breeder online. That was not a good breeder at all. Doesn't mean your dog can't be trained and managed, just that there wasn't any thought in the breed pairings.


Thanks, I will keep updating after seeing Mike. Do you want to private message what information you found about the breeder? We are keeping him crated at night now bc a lot of his aggresion happens when he's on a bed or couch


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## WNGD

Holy cr*p, get with the trainer, no offense but you guys need a lot of help in knowing what you're doing.
Giving a dog a timeout for growling or biting does nothing but allow you to ignore the situation for 10 minutes. It de-escalates the immediate action but does nothing for the habit or driver for the situation.

Time outs? What is this, a toddler at pre-school?

And what makes you think that saying no for the 30th time will finally have the desired reaction? Especially when it's mostly begging him and not demanding from him.

And I'm not surprised "a lot of his aggresion happens when he's on a bed or couch" - that privilege should have gone away day 1.

I agree with what was said above, not going to offer an opinion because you'll get too many. Get with that trainer.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> Holy cr*p, get with the trainer, no offense but you guys need a lot of help in knowing what you're doing.
> Giving a dog a timeout for growling or biting does nothing but allow you to ignore the situation for 10 minutes. It de-escalates the immediate action but does nothing for the habit or driver for the situation.
> 
> Time outs? What is this, a toddler at pre-school?
> 
> And what makes you think that saying no for the 30th time will finally have the desired reaction? Especially when it's mostly begging him and not demanding from him.
> 
> And I'm not surprised "a lot of his aggresion happens when he's on a bed or couch" - that privilege should have gone away day 1.
> 
> I agree with what was said above, not going to offer an opinion because you'll get too many. Get with that trainer.


Thanks, these videos are not representative of the current situation or what we do when he growls. In these videos my main goal was to catch him growling on video bc this was new behavior. We were in indiana and our trainer was in nyc, so I provoked him to some degree to show the trainer what we were dealing with. I would otherwise never tell him no that many times or sit in front of his crate while he is growling.


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## Jax08

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks, I will keep updating after seeing Mike. Do you want to private message what information you found about the breeder? We are keeping him crated at night now bc a lot of his aggresion happens when he's on a bed or couch


I just looked at their page. There was nothing I saw that was good. This is a typical backyard breeder that got their hands one some working lines. 

That aggression you are seeing sounds a whole lot like resource guarding. So expect your dog to have a whole new set of rules.


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## Steve Strom

If its something you want to do, with the help I think you'll get it looks manageable with him. I probably saw the same thing as Jax, so I wouldn't personally put too much thought into the pedigree.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jax08 said:


> I just looked at their page. There was nothing I saw that was good. This is a typical backyard breeder that got their hands one some working lines.
> 
> That aggression you are seeing sounds a whole lot like resource guarding. So expect your dog to have a whole new set of rules.


Yes, i would say he definitely has resource guarding issues with my husband, he sometimes wants him to himself. He doesn't resource guard anything else though like food, toys ect. 

His resource guarding is strongest when we both leave together, when we get home he wants my husband to himself. He still is excited to see me, but separately away from my husband.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> If its something you want to do, with the help I think you'll get it looks manageable with him. I probably saw the same thing as Jax, so I wouldn't personally put too much thought into the pedigree.


Thanks, yes right now it is very manageable, so my main concern is stopping any escalation. He's let me clean his ears and stuff like that without growling and just stands there and cries instead.


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## Steve Strom

I think he looks unsure about you guys and he feels very pressured over space. He's growling at your husband too, and acts like he's seeking some comfort, some relief. He doesn't look comfortable with how he moves toward him to put a collar on either. He's fine moving along with him until he moves toward him. Maybe part temperament, part inconsistency with handling and routine. I'm not knocking you in any way, I just think those are the areas you'll find your fix in.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> I think he looks unsure about you guys and he feels very pressured over space. He's growling at your husband too, and acts like he's seeking some comfort, some relief. He doesn't look comfortable with how he moves toward him to put a collar on either. He's fine moving along with him until he moves toward him. Maybe part temperament, part inconsistency with handling and routine. I'm not knocking you in any way, I just think those are the areas you'll find your fix in.


Thanks, Yeah in that video we had left him alone in his crate for an hour and when we got back i could tell he was pissed off that we left, but he was also excited we were back. He was running and jumping and saying hi to each of us and then my husband and I were next to eachother saying hi to him at the same time and then he growled. we sort of drew that situation out to get him growling on video. 
But if we were not trying to get it on video we'd just put him in another room by himself for like 30 mins and when he comes out of the room he's fine and happy to be with us again. 
He has bad separation anxiety, if we are walking together on a walk and one of us goes the other way he gets really upset and cries. He hates separation, and is super jealous like if my husband or I hug he cries and wants attention too. When he was a puppy he'd cry if one of us went to the bathroom.


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## Jax08

I 100% agree with Steve. IMO, he is resourcing guarding your husband. My dog does this with me towards my husband. The difference is, when mine started growling and charging, I had a really good trainer on the same level as Mike to help me correct him. So, yes, this can be fixed but it won't be with treats and you should definitely have a good trainer to guide you.


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## David Winners

The dog is uncomfortable and has no guidance. This isn't a problem that will be solved with a NO or a nagging correction. You have to change your relationship with this dog and how you live together. Nothing about the husband's behavior says clear, confident leader.

What is a normal day like for this dog? I see frustration causing excitement.


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks, these videos are not representative of the current situation or what we do when he growls. In these videos my main goal was to catch him growling on video bc this was new behavior. We were in indiana and our trainer was in nyc, so I provoked him to some degree to show the trainer what we were dealing with. I would otherwise never tell him no that many times or sit in front of his crate while he is growling.


Fair enough I don't mean to come off as an azz. The first few videos was weird talk back which can escalate. The "no no no" is actually and very much counter productive, like "come come come....come ....come". He has tuned out the no and realizes there are no consequences to it.

The licking is nervousness and/or stress. The growling (which is not full on) by the baby gate is different but related to the more "snarling" on the bed. Both are not hyper-aggressive as to lead to your growling when you return home/bite experience.

Again, I'll leave it to your trainer who can see the dog live but will say there's no way I'd let even the growling happen a second escalate


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## MineAreWorkingline

OP.. can you please send a PM to me? I have somebody that wants to contact you that has a vested interest in this dog's pedigree. They might be able to help you out.


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## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> The dog is uncomfortable and has no guidance. This isn't a problem that will be solved with a NO or a nagging correction. You have to change your relationship with this dog and how you live together. Nothing about the husband's behavior says clear, confident leader.
> 
> What is a normal day like for this dog? I see frustration causing excitement.


The weird thing is he is happy 99% of the time and he loves to learn and is very obedient. Those videos are not representative of an typical episode or day. A normal day is running with my husband, we train with him, he loves the frisbee, I'm literally in a constant gave of fetch with him bc I work from home eveb before covid. So i throw him the ball hundreds of times a day. If you look at my Instagram @LorenzoTitak, you can see he's a happy dog. I had a friend who studied animal behavior over today and she was like what are you talking about he's great. And everytime we are out he's great an like an angel. 
The episode that happened today was we went to the beach for like an hour. He was screaming, howling and crying in his for 25 mins, finally he stopped and relaxed, when I got home I got a treat and went to get him out of the crate and I could tell he was pissed. So I told him heel, which he did, but he started doing a low growl just sitting next to me. Then I put him in the bathroom. When we left him outside of the crate and left he tore up the carpet trying to get out. He's just gets so mad when we leave him.


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## Jamie Lynn

Here's some videos of how stressed he is when we left today. Part of the issue is maybe that we lived in nyc for most of his life then western PA for 2 weeks, then Indiana for 8 months and then Florida for 6 weeks and then back to Indiana. 
I didn't get a video of him growling at me today.









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## Jamie Lynn

Chip Blasiole said:


> Call him to heel and then down. Step away. Do you have a release command?


Sorry i missed this response. Yes i do have a release command i will try this next time. Today i called him to a heel and he started growling while he was in the heel position


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## Bearshandler

This dog looks incredibly stressed and uncomfortable in these videos. Have you had any other issues with him and how was it handled? Anything at all like chewing, house training anything at all? I’m just asking for a better snap shot of your relationship with the dog.


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## Jamie Lynn

Bearshandler said:


> This dog looks incredibly stressed and uncomfortable in these videos. Have you had any other issues with him and how was it handled? Anything at all like chewing, house training anything at all? I’m just asking for a better snap shot of your relationship with the dog.


No other issues, he was potty trained when I got him, he did have worms when we got him and was sick with that for a bit, but we took him to the vet and got that fixed. I've worked from home his whole life so he could never chew up the house or anything. He won't even eat a cheerio off the ground because he knows he's not allowed to. Living in nyc I trained him not to touch anything that wasn't given to him bc who knows what kind of **** is all over the ground. 
When we left the city to indiana his separation anxiety worsened and that is when he ripped up the carpet trying to dig himself out of the bedroom to get back to us.


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## Bearshandler

Jamie Lynn said:


> No other issues, he was potty trained when I got him, he did have worms when we got him and was sick with that for a bit, but we took him to the vet and got that fixed. I've worked from home his whole life so he could never chew up the house or anything. He won't even eat a cheerio off the ground because he knows he's not allowed to. Living in nyc I trained him not to touch anything that wasn't given to him bc who knows what kind of **** is all over the ground.
> When we left the city to indiana his separation anxiety worsened and that is when he ripped up the carpet trying to dig himself out of the bedroom to get back to us.


How was he trained to not eat things off the ground?


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## Jamie Lynn

Bearshandler said:


> How was he trained to not eat things off the ground?


I just had to consistently tell him no each time he tried until he stopped trying. 
He honestly has always been obedient and does what i say. He's been on like 10 comercial airplanes in the cabin and the people in front of him don't even know he's under their seat. To even get to the plane we have to take packed nyc trains and buses to the airport. 
I know most people on this sub probably think he doesn't know who is in charge and/or was not trained, but that isn't really the case. There is no way I could get him onto packed trains and planes in nyc if he wasn't trained. He is often mistaken for a service dog.
I think in terms of his growling I didn't handle that the best at the beginning, it caught me off guard and I was afraid. Bc I legit trained with him so much he was so great and did everything I could to avoid aggresion, by socializing him so much, making him sit for his food.


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## LuvShepherds

I think its a combination of genetics and handling, but don’t discount the effects of four moves in a short time on an anxious dog. He’s in a new place, everything smells and looks different, you are probably somewhat stressed yourself. Dogs can be very tuned into environmental changes and behavioral changes in their owners, as well a new routines.


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## Bearshandler

Jamie Lynn said:


> I just had to consistently tell him no each time he tried until he stopped trying.
> He honestly has always been obedient and does what i say. He's been on like 10 comercial airplanes in the cabin and the people in front of him don't even know he's under their seat. To even get to the plane we have to take packed nyc trains and buses to the airport.
> I know most people on this sub probably think he doesn't know who is in charge and/or was not trained, but that isn't really the case. There is no way I could get him onto packed trains and planes in nyc if he wasn't trained. He is often mistaken for a service dog.
> I think in terms of his growling I didn't handle that the best at the beginning, it caught me off guard and I was afraid. Bc I legit trained with him so much he was so great and did everything I could to avoid aggresion, by socializing him so much, making him sit for his food.


Have you ever given this a dog a physical correction or used any sort of adversive?


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## Jamie Lynn

Bearshandler said:


> Have you ever given this a dog a physical correction or used any sort of adversive?


Yes, corrections with the prong as well as a shock collar. He did schutzhund obedience once a week in nyc with us and our trainer. 
Personally, I didn't want to do corrections for things like the perfect schutzhund heel bc my dog loves training and wants to please so much that i thought it was unnecessary. But my husband and the trainer did a lot of corrections. I'd be okay for giving him a correction if he did something wrong, but I feel like at this point the correction does nothing if he is pulling on the leash bc he is so used to it. But using a prong correction when he is agitated just makes him angrier.


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## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> I think its a combination of genetics and handling, but don’t discount the effects of four moves in a short time on an anxious dog. He’s in a new place, everything smells and looks different, you are probably somewhat stressed yourself. Dogs can be very tuned into environmental changes and behavioral changes in their owners, as well a new routines.


Yeah he also had to live with my dad for 8 months in indiana and my dog has always been so freaked by my dad. So i know that made him more unsettled. It's weird bc he HATES my dad, wants nothing to do with him, has barked at him, but has never growled at my dad. 

Unfortunately, we are going to be living with my dad again in two weeks. I had my dad give my dog treats every night and that helped some. But he still hates my dad.
He's never shown such a strong disliking to anyone else. He honestly loves strangers and people always say how friendly, happy and loving he is. He's never growled at anyone but me and my husband


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## WNGD

So many more details, the plot thickens. All the moving is part of the problem. And he may not like your Dad but he respects him.


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## Jax08

Jamie Lynn said:


> Yes, corrections with the prong as well as a shock collar. He did schutzhund obedience once a week in nyc with us and our trainer.
> Personally, I didn't want to do corrections for things like the perfect schutzhund heel bc my dog loves training and wants to please so much that i thought it was unnecessary. But my husband and the trainer did a lot of corrections. I'd be okay for giving him a correction if he did something wrong, but I feel like at this point the correction does nothing if he is pulling on the leash bc he is so used to it. But using a prong correction when he is agitated just makes him angrier.


So a prong will often ramp up a dog. In fact, in IPO, we use a prong in protection so they learn to work thru pressure and in some cases count on it to ramp the dog up. If you are using electric for aggression issues, you better have good timing and a good trainer. A nylon choke is my tool of choice for reactivity. Calm corrections used correctly and consistently.

As far as corrections for things like heeling - at his age there shouldn't have been a lot of corrections for obedience. It should have been teaching and building muscle memory. If you do the foundation right then corrections are minimal. If your dog is pulling on the leash, then it's because you never taught him not to. It's infinitely unfair to correct a dog when the human hasn't been clear in the expectations and taught the dog. Can you please PM me the name of your trainer in NYC? 

You also say your dog likes to please and your husband was doing a lot of corrections? If your dog has a high pack drive and is handler sensitive, and is getting unfair corrections from your husband and trainer, that could carry over into the home and explain why your dog looks so uncomfortable in the videos. 

IMO, Your issues stem from resource guarding and a lack of leadership. I think your definition of leadership will start to change when you start working with Mike.


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## WNGD

Please post the thoughts from Mike and what the ongoing results are. I hope the best for you and the dog but your current lifestyle and constant moving is really not helping imo. Maybe he like NYC....


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> So many more details, the plot thickens. All the moving is part of the problem. And he may not like your Dad but he respects him.


Yeah it's a weird situation with my dad. Lorenzo used to do a "stay back" bark at him whenever he came in the room and it really pissed my dad off. My dad is sort of an alpha male so he would actually get pissed that Lorenzo didn't respect him and wouldn't let him live in peace in his own house. 
Finally I got my dad to give him treats daily and it was better, so my dad can enter the room now without being barked at.
But Lorenzo is still afraid of him and wants nothing to do with him. Something happened between the two of them bc I have never really seen Lorenzo have such a strong reaction to anyone else. I don't think my dad abused him or anything, but something had to have happened.

The other issue with my parents house in Indiana is they have these two terrible unsocialized/untrained wheaton terrior/poodle mixes. Those dogs stay in the kitchen where I have to pass by with Lorenzo to take him outside and these dogs run up and bite him and start barking at him. And then my dad hates any barking so he gets up and starts squirting his dogs in the face with water and yells quiet. So there is that stress too. Lorenzo tries to play with those dogs sometimes, one of them plays the other just tries to be aggressive to him, but they are like 20 pounds so Lorenzo doesn't fight back. He never fights back or growls if a little dog goes after him, but if a big dog growls at him he will growl back.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jax08 said:


> So a prong will often ramp up a dog. In fact, in IPO, we use a prong in protection so they learn to work thru pressure and in some cases count on it to ramp the dog up. If you are using electric for aggression issues, you better have good timing and a good trainer. A nylon choke is my tool of choice for reactivity. Calm corrections used correctly and consistently.
> 
> As far as corrections for things like heeling - at his age there shouldn't have been a lot of corrections for obedience. It should have been teaching and building muscle memory. If you do the foundation right then corrections are minimal. If your dog is pulling on the leash, then it's because you never taught him not to. It's infinitely unfair to correct a dog when the human hasn't been clear in the expectations and taught the dog. Can you please PM me the name of your trainer in NYC?
> 
> You also say your dog likes to please and your husband was doing a lot of corrections? If your dog has a high pack drive and is handler sensitive, and is getting unfair corrections from your husband and trainer, that could carry over into the home and explain why your dog looks so uncomfortable in the videos.
> 
> IMO, Your issues stem from resource guarding and a lack of leadership. I think your definition of leadership will start to change when you start working with Mike.


Thanks I thought the same about the prong amping him up and didn't want to do it. I can PM you his name, but he is like part of our family and has been a good trainer thus far. This is all just my side of the story and we haven't seen our trainer in person since March. These problems started for the most part after that.
The breeder has also been nice and helpful so I don't want to start any waves against my trainer or breeder.

Most of the time Lorenzo is very comfortable, he's just not when we get back after leaving him or during any separation. I know that in some aspects our leadership has not been ideal with his aggresion. But he does listen to us 99% of the time. For example, one day my mom forgot that the florist waa in our backyard and let Lorenzo outside. I heard his "what are you doing on my property?" Bark and went out saw him barking at her from about 15 ft. I told him to leave it and come inside and he did. Also, my parents had two female dogs that he tried to hump, but all I had to do was tell him no a few times and that behavior was extinguished. So my point is with the growling I didn't show the correct leadership from the start, in most other areas I think I'm pretty okay. Not trying to say I'm experienced or anything, just that I'm not completely clueless.
If he thought he was the leader or whatever we would have never made it through 10 commercial flights. When you take a dog through TSA they have to go through the metal detector alone without any collars. Also taking him on a packed bus from the airport to the subway was 30 mins of standing smashed with other people. 

Other issuee I haven't mentioned are extreme car sickness, which he has mostly gotten over. He vomited 11 times driving from nyc to nj. He also had allergies last october where he lost the fur around his eyes. That was resolved with this allergy immune supplement called zesty paws.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> Please post the thoughts from Mike and what the ongoing results are. I hope the best for you and the dog but your current lifestyle and constant moving is really not helping imo. Maybe he like NYC....


Yes, I will post thoughts from Mike when I see him, but that won't be for at least 2 weeks as we are still in Florida. Yeah I think he likes NYC, but he also loves my parents .8 acre yard for frisbee and agility training. He basically has his own agility course there so every location has it's pros and cons. He gets to swim in Florida, which he really likes. I know the constant moving isn't ideal, but that was just the situation we were put in. We had to quarantine after leaving nyc in March. Them we were at my parent's house for so long and I think my dad wanted a break, so we went to Florida for 6 weeks. Then back to Indiana until we have to go back into the office after the vaccine.


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## LuvShepherds

This is only an observation but I think your dad’s behavior toward your dog, as well as the environmental issues in his home—other dogs, and having to be kept separated, set the foundation for his fearfulness and growling. I think it’s fear aggression, as well as what others called resource guarding. It’s based in fear of something or someone.


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## Heartandsoul

_“The other issue with my parents house in Indiana is they have these two terrible unsocialized/untrained wheaton terrior/poodle mixes. Those dogs stay in the kitchen where I have to pass by with Lorenzo to take him outside and these dogs run up and bite him and start barking at him. And then my dad hates any barking so he gets up and starts squirting his dogs in the face with water and yells quiet. So there is that stress too.”_

I think this paragraph has a lot to do with why you boy reacts to your dad. The kitchen scene isn’t good and my thoughts are to change how you get though the kitchen without you boy being attacked or even barked at.

Maybe you can put the poodles in the bathroom to take your boy out and tie him to something and go back in to put poodles back in kitchen. Then do the same before bringing your boy back in, put him in a down out of sight until you get the poodle back in the kitchen. 
Or think of something else that prevents these dogs from acting out on your boy.

If it were me, I would absolutely do something like this even if it is a pain to do, and also have a talk with your dad to get him on board with what ever plan you decided to do to stop it. But it needs to stop for your boys sake and sanity. Imho.

The vid you posted a couple pages back, as short as it was, does show obedience effort that you have put in and I don’t think anyone questions you and your commitment to training. I also think you have a very handsome boy and my apologies for getting his gender wrong in my first reply.

As a side thought, maybe this trainer has some type of training via FaceTime or through vids that you could utilize during these two weeks. It’s just a thought.

Can’t comment any further as it is above my level of experience but I wish you the best of luck with the new trainer.


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## Jamie Lynn

Heartandsoul said:


> _“The other issue with my parents house in Indiana is they have these two terrible unsocialized/untrained wheaton terrior/poodle mixes. Those dogs stay in the kitchen where I have to pass by with Lorenzo to take him outside and these dogs run up and bite him and start barking at him. And then my dad hates any barking so he gets up and starts squirting his dogs in the face with water and yells quiet. So there is that stress too.”_
> 
> I think this paragraph has a lot to do with why you boy reacts to your dad. The kitchen scene isn’t good and my thoughts are to change how you get though the kitchen without you boy being attacked or even barked at.
> 
> Maybe you can put the poodles in the bathroom to take your boy out and tie him to something and go back in to put poodles back in kitchen. Then do the same before bringing your boy back in, put him in a down out of sight until you get the poodle back in the kitchen.
> Or think of something else that prevents these dogs from acting out on your boy.
> 
> If it were me, I would absolutely do something like this even if it is a pain to do, and also have a talk with your dad to get him on board with what ever plan you decided to do to stop it. But it needs to stop for your boys sake and sanity. Imho.
> 
> The vid you posted a couple pages back, as short as it was, does show obedience effort that you have put in and I don’t think anyone questions you and your commitment to training. I also think you have a very handsome boy and my apologies for getting his gender wrong in my first reply.
> 
> As a side thought, maybe this trainer has some type of training via FaceTime or through vids that you could utilize during these two weeks. It’s just a thought.
> 
> Can’t comment any further as it is above my level of experience but I wish you the best of luck with the new trainer.


Thank you, these are helpful tips! I didn't think the little dogs bothered him that much bc they are so small. But you are right they probably bothered him more than I thought.


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## LuvShepherds

An anxious dog is also traumatized by shouting.


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## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> This is only an observation but I think your dad’s behavior toward your dog, as well as the environmental issues in his home—other dogs, and having to be kept separated, set the foundation for his fearfulness and growling. I think it’s fear aggression, as well as what others called resource guarding. It’s based in fear of something or someone.


That makes sense, I don't think that is the type of aggression that would be fixed by neutering correct? My vet friend thinks I need to get him neutered asap, but I really don't think it would help the situation and could make it worse based on the most recent information.


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## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> An anxious dog is also traumatized by shouting.


Thank you, yes this is something I have been trying to tell my husband and dad for a while. I will remind them again lol.


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## selzer

Ok, If the dam was born in 2015, and they didn't breed her until she was at least two your pup is no more than 3 years old at the most? And you started having problems a year ago? So, not knowing the exact age, his increased aggression toward you and your husband began when he was reaching sexual maturity. It sounds like it has been increased by tentative leadership -- "you know he (your husband) shouldn't have done that." I'm paraphrasing. But why shouldn't your husband put his arm out to block the dog from whatever? Who runs the show? The dog? 

The dog gets plenty of exercise, so you've read most posts where people say to exercise your bored puppy and that will help with the bored-dog problems. Yeah, exercise is important, but by itself it only makes for a more muscular, energetic dog. You've had the dog in training since it was 3 months old, and the most you leave alone is 3 hours? Training is key for the most part. Training helps us to bridge the gap of communication between species. He learns what you want him to do it, and he does it which is confirmation that you are communicating with him. At the same time, you learn to read his body language and understand what he likes and dislikes. This is the bond building. 

Training helps build the bond. How well trained a dog is can be an indicator of how well the management/leadership style suits the dog and the owner. Has to suit both. If you throw a prong on a dog without the belief in the type of training/management, your just going to screw up your dog, and feel crappy about doing it. 
Back to sexual maturity. Yep, boys have testosterone. Neutering your dog can help with this issue, especially if you can commit to a leadership regime that incorporates exercise, play, and training. Nothing cruel. You and have to both be on board, and give it a few months. It may not be forever. Nothing In Life Is Free is one of the leadership models that people think works well for this. I don't know. But anything that is consistent, realistic in expectations, follow through -- baically letting the dog know that you begin and end play, begin and end exercise, determine where he can go, and where does not go, that good things come from you, but he must do his part -- you provide food, but he cannot jump on you when you are putting it down, maybe he has to sit first or wait in the other room until you release him -- stuff like that, builds self control while solidifies you as the provider/leader. Exercise is fine, but it needs to exercise mind and body, so for your guy a simple walk might not be enough, he might have to track or might need to have a training session, hide and seek, agility -- a series of steps before each obstacle is done sufficient for a reward. 

Something like that and removing the testosterone makers may help. Good luck.


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## LuvShepherds

Jamie Lynn said:


> That makes sense, I don't think that is the type of aggression that would be fixed by neutering correct? My vet friend thinks I need to get him neutered asap, but I really don't think it would help the situation and could make it worse based on the most recent information.


Neutering can change a puppy’s behavior. It’s not going to do much for an older dog and can make it worse. Edited - And I just saw Selzer posted the opposite. I would go with what she says since she has more experience. The last dog I neutered was a long time ago and it didn’t make him any nicer than he was ever going to be.


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## Jamie Lynn

Here is another video of me walking Lorenzo and my husband leaving the walk to go home on his bike. Lorenzo screams like this anytime one of us leaves. In a normal situation, I would have told him quiet and continued walking, but I wanted to get his anxiety on video. Any ideas on how to correct him in this state? 
Our trainer thinks we should do prong corrections, but that seems to not work in this situation, he just keeps screaming. 
The first time he was on the subway platform in nyc, he acted just like this and my husband was trying to correct it out of him with the prong but that didn't work, so I sat on the ground with him and comforted him until he got used to it and stopped screaming. Now he doesn't scream in the subway anymore.

He also screams like this when I am swimming laps and when I go under water.
Does anyone else's GSD scream like this?









New video by Jamie Titak







photos.app.goo.gl


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## David Winners

This is just frustration. If you are going to use a correction here, it needs to be for refusal of a command, not to try and extinguish a behavior. You're not going to correct away a mental state.

I'd leave the dog in an excited state and redirect his behavior to heel, watch, down after a 180. Build up those habits until they are strong and snappy. Choose your reward appropriately to your training. 

Then I would work on wearing him out first and then asking for longer duration of behaviors, correcting for looking away.


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## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> This is just frustration. If you are going to use a correction here, it needs to be for refusal of a command, not to try and extinguish a behavior. You're not going to correct away a mental state.
> 
> I'd leave the dog in an excited state and redirect his behavior to heel, watch, down after a 180. Build up those habits until they are strong and snappy. Choose your reward appropriately to your training.
> 
> Then I would work on wearing him out first and then asking for longer duration of behaviors, correcting for looking away.


Thanks, In this state would I correct him for refusual to obey a quiet command or is that overlapping with trying to change his mental state? I don't know how much control he has over his screaming, it seems like not a lot.
When he's in this type of state he will follow any command except for quiet. Like if I'm swimming laps in front of him he will stay in a down and follow that command, but he won't stop screaming. Using the watch command in this situation helps some with his screaming bc he isn't looking at me swimming at that point he's looking at my husband.


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## wolfy dog

Jamie Lynn said:


> Here is another video of me walking Lorenzo and my husband leaving the walk to go home on his bike. Lorenzo screams like this anytime one of us leaves. In a normal situation, I would have told him quiet and continued walking, but I wanted to get his anxiety on video. Any ideas on how to correct him in this state?
> Our trainer thinks we should do prong corrections, but that seems to not work in this situation, he just keeps screaming.
> The first time he was on the subway platform in nyc, he acted just like this and my husband was trying to correct it out of him with the prong but that didn't work, so I sat on the ground with him and comforted him until he got used to it and stopped screaming. Now he doesn't scream in the subway anymore.
> 
> He also screams like this when I am swimming laps and when I go under water.
> Does anyone else's GSD scream like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New video by Jamie Titak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> photos.app.goo.gl


You have given him way too much time and opportunity to go crazy. In this case I would have done the following: as soon as his ears go up and he focuses on the subject, immediately turn him around with a strong prong collar correction that he will remember and leave the scene. Not the friendly, "Let's go". He won't need a command for this. As soon as he is back to his senses and able to focus on you, reward him with a treat. At this point I wouldn't use play to prevent too much excitement. What I saw in this video is easy to fix. He behaves like a dog that lacks leadership. But I only saw this video.


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## David Winners

I wouldn't correct for anything that's not 100% solid.


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> You have given him way too much time and opportunity to go crazy. In this case I would have done the following: as soon as his ears go up and he focuses on the subject, immediately turn him around with a strong prong collar correction that he will remember and leave the scene. Not the friendly, "Let's go". He won't need a command for this. As soon as he is back to his senses and able to focus on you, reward him with a treat. At this point I wouldn't use play to prevent too much excitement. What I saw in this video is easy to fix. He behaves like a dog that lacks leadership. But I only saw this video.


Thank you, Yes I only let him scream this long to capture it on video to show how upset he gets when one of us leaves.


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## Steve Strom

Is he wearing a halti, or gentle leader type thing?


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> Is he wearing a halti, or gentle leader type thing?


Yes we just switched from prong to halti on walks a few days ago.


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## Steve Strom

I don't remember if you said it, but is this your first dog or a very different dog then what you've owned before?


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> I don't remember if you said it, but is this your first dog or a very different dog then what you've owned before?


My first dog was an akita lab mix that I got when I was 20 in Paoli, IN (the poorest county in indiana) at a trailer humane society. He cost 15 dollars and all the wanted was my first and last name. I knew nothing about his history. So many red flags there, but I was 20 and stupid. I don't regret it though bc he probably would have died if I didn't take him that day or been adopted by someone in a dog fighting ring. Apparently dog fights were a massive problem in Paoli at the time.
The very next day after I got him he got very sick wouldn't eat or drink, so I took him to the vet and he had Parvo virus and had to stay in the vet for a week. I don't know how old he was, probably about 3 months. That dog, Kepler was so skittish always and then he became fear aggressive around 6 months old after he was neutered. I don't know if that neutering was a causation or a correlation. I spent thousands of dollars trying to fix that dog, took him to so many trainers and Purdue University.

Everyone told me to put him to sleep and finally when he was around 7 years old I did. It was the worst. I do have some experience with aggression, animal behavior and dog training from experience with that dog.
So when I was ready to get another dog at 30. I wanted to get one that I would know the history of and that is where I am now. I was hoping to not have to go through this again. But at least Lorenzo, the GSD is only exhibiting this behavior to my husband and I and not others so this time it is not as bad thus far.


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## Steve Strom

The only thing I would do until you get back to Indiana is stick with what he's familiar with and you're comfortable with. Consistency. Don't set him up to show anything else on video. One of my favorite sayings from one of the best trainers I know is "Their perception is our reality" I think it'll just be a few pretty simple things to help that perception, that will be better pointed out to you in person rather then you trying to figure out.


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## Jamie Lynn

I am trying to not be afraid of him, but he just scared the crap out of me. I swam laps for about 30 minutes came inside took a shower. My husband left to go for a run and Lorenzo is sitting in the living room by the door where my husband left. I walk by and Lorenzo is frozen giving me the death stare, i ignore him keep doing my thing for like 5 mins and then I realize I need my ipad which is behind him. I face his direction from like 15 feet away and he's still giving me the death stare, so i stand there for a fraction of a second and he lets out these barely audible growls still staring me down. I told him to go to the bathroom which he did, but I was too afraid to get close enough to him to shut the bathroom door, so i just shut the bedroom door. I had no idea why he was pissed, but then I remembered he does this when I go swimming without him. But it had been a good 30 mins since I got inside, so he must have just been sitting there in rage that whole time. 
I'm super sad bc he was great all day and I thought this could be a day where he didn't growl


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## Steve Strom

Wait, unless I missed something, your latest post changes some things.


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## wolfy dog

Your last post basically said that you are being held hostage by your dog. This is unsafe.


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> Your last post basically said that you are being held hostage by your dog. This is unsafe.


Yes, it's so crazy bc when I let him out of the room 30 mins later he's fine and he's bringing his ball asking me to throw it to him. Like dropping the ball beside me and sitting and smiling at me.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jamie Lynn said:


> I am trying to not be afraid of him, but he just scared the crap out of me. I swam laps for about 30 minutes came inside took a shower. My husband left to go for a run and Lorenzo is sitting in the living room by the door where my husband left. I walk by and Lorenzo is frozen giving me the death stare, i ignore him keep doing my thing for like 5 mins and then I realize I need my ipad which is behind him. I face his direction from like 15 feet away and he's still giving me the death stare, so i stand there for a fraction of a second and he lets out these barely audible growls still staring me down. I told him to go to the bathroom which he did, but I was too afraid to get close enough to him to shut the bathroom door, so i just shut the bedroom door. I had no idea why he was pissed, but then I remembered he does this when I go swimming without him. But it had been a good 30 mins since I got inside, so he must have just been sitting there in rage that whole time.
> I'm super sad bc he was great all day and I thought this could be a day where he didn't growl


"Because you went swimming without him" doesn't sound like a reasonable explanation to me.

Was he on furniture?

What other possible association does he have with you returning and focusing on him?


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## Bearshandler

This sounds like a situation getting way beyond your capabilities. I don’t remember how long you said you need to wait or why, but I would try to get help sooner. This is a completely unacceptable situation.


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## Jamie Lynn

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "Because you went swimming without him" doesn't sound like a reasonable explanation to me.
> 
> Was he on furniture?
> 
> What other possible association does he have with you returning and focusing on him?


He wasn't on any furniture, he was just lying on the floor. I honestly have no idea any other association he could have with me in that situation. he has growled at me before when I went swimming without him, so that is the only thing I can think of. He's 100% snapped out of it now and wants me to play with him.


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## Jamie Lynn

Bearshandler said:


> This sounds like a situation getting way beyond your capabilities. I don’t remember how long you said you need to wait or why, but I would try to get help sooner. This is a completely unacceptable situation.


I texted Mike and asked if he could do a video chat before then. We are in Florida until November 13 and then driving to Indiana. So that is why we are waiting bc it doesn't make sense to try and find a trainer here if we are just about to leave. Unless anyone knows someone in Siesta key Florida who has time between now and the 13th. I'd obviously pay them


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## WNGD

If he's sitting across the room like that staring at you and you give him the come command, then get to heel then a down stay, what would he do? From what I have seen, kindly as I can, neither one of you know how to give an obedience command.


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## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> Yes, it's so crazy bc when I let him out of the room 30 mins later he's fine and he's bringing his ball asking me to throw it to him. Like dropping the ball beside me and sitting and smiling at me.


IMO, the dog is manipulating you.

The following is just some information for you because I think it's relevant to help you understand things. But please take this with a grain a salt for now because I want you to listen to MIke Diehl.

But I have to agree with others that your problems are mainly leadership issues. I see so many other holes in those videos that I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you have a trainer and are in Schutzhund. Please don't take that the wrong way.

_"The fact is very few dogs are truly dominant. We feel the vast majority of the people who email us don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description I call them dogs that have never learned "pack structure rules". _" - *Ed Frawley*









Dealing with the Dominant Dog


Very few dogs are truly dominant. We feel the vast majority of the people who need help with their dogs don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description, these are dogs that have never learned




leerburg.com


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> If he's sitting across the room like that staring at you and you give him the come command, then get to heel then a down stay, what would he do? From what I have seen, kindly as I can, neither one of you know how to give an obedience command.


He'd most likely do it. If you look at his instagram I have tons of videos of him doing obedience. In this case my command was to go to the bathroom, which he did. 
A few days ago i had him heel when he got out of his crate and he growled while I was he was in the heel so I thought maybe it would be better to give him space when he's mad


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## Steve Strom

Until you have help, I'd back off on demanding any strict obedience or putting him in a position to not comply. Calm indifference on your part. Another great saying, "What are you going to do when that doesn't work"?


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> He'd most likely do it. If you look at his instagram I have tons of videos of him doing obedience. In this case my command was to go to the bathroom, which he did.
> A few days ago i had him heel when he got out of his crate and he growled while I was he was in the heel so I thought maybe it would be better to give him space when he's mad


I am trying to stay out of this conversation because @Jax08 gave you a great trainer to connect with and @David Winners is trying to give you advice to get you through until then, as is @Steve Strom. @wolfstraum offered insight on the breeding as well.
But here is my two cents, or a nickel since I'm Canadian and we have no cents, you are way over your head here and if you keep screwing around someone is going to get hurt. None of those videos showed me an aggressive dog. What I did see was a dog that was scared, insecure and confused. I have seen not one meaningful correction and the whole episode of let him screw up and then go argue over a collar while putting the prong on him to give a half hearted correction that really isn't was just crazy.
You are literally creating a fear biter through poor handling and you need to just stop and breathe. 
A command is a command, not a request. Dog gets one shot at listening and then you MAKE it happen.
Toddlers get sent to their rooms, not growling dogs. 
No, no, no has become blah, blah, blah. Your dog has no idea what your problem is he just wants you to shut up and go away.

You need to get through two weeks roughly, right? So exercise the crap out of him and beyond that keep him in his crate. No free run of the house, no nothing. Out for exercise 4 times a day or whatever, and then back in his crate. 
At this point you are only making things worse, and by you I mean you and your husband. Hubby needs some handling classes as well.
I am not trying to be mean or hurtful. I just think at this point you all need a 2 week shutdown.


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> I am trying to stay out of this conversation because @Jax08 gave you a great trainer to connect with and @David Winners is trying to give you advice to get you through until then, as is @Steve Strom. @wolfstraum offered insight on the breeding as well.
> But here is my two cents, or a nickel since I'm Canadian and we have no cents, you are way over your head here and if you keep screwing around someone is going to get hurt. None of those videos showed me an aggressive dog. What I did see was a dog that was scared, insecure and confused. I have seen not one meaningful correction and the whole episode of let him screw up and then go argue over a collar while putting the prong on him to give a half hearted correction that really isn't was just crazy.
> You are literally creating a fear biter through poor handling and you need to just stop and breathe.
> A command is a command, not a request. Dog gets one shot at listening and then you MAKE it happen.
> Toddlers get sent to their rooms, not growling dogs.
> No, no, no has become blah, blah, blah. Your dog has no idea what your problem is he just wants you to shut up and go away.
> 
> You need to get through two weeks roughly, right? So exercise the crap out of him and beyond that keep him in his crate. No free run of the house, no nothing. Out for exercise 4 times a day or whatever, and then back in his crate.
> At this point you are only making things worse, and by you I mean you and your husband. Hubby needs some handling classes as well.
> I am not trying to be mean or hurtful. I just think at this point you all need a 2 week shutdown.


I appreciate your input and agree that the argument over that prong collar was stupid. You guys wanted to see videos so I showed you the videos of the episodes that we prolonged for the sake of getting the video or the ones from the very first episodes where our pretty much perfectly behaved dog just sort of started growling. He does listen to commands. Again, there is no way this dog would have made it through 10 commercial flights, TSA, trains, buses, elevators packed with people if he didn't listen. I asked Mike if he could do a video call in the next two weeks before we got there. I explained the most recent episode and Mike said he has some ghosts in his head that might not be able to be trained out. Hopefully that isn't the case and that we and we are just doing everything wrong


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## Jen84

@Jamie Lynn

Two things that stuck out, to me, of the top of my head, were in the first video he's "praising" the dog by massaging his back while at the same time telling the dog "nononononononono" for growling.

I really can't blame the dog for being confused because I'm still confused. And then you start correcting him for growling with a prong and e-collar. No wonder there is conflict and confusion.

Then in the video where you said your husband was trying to correct him with a prong, your husband asks the dog to "sit" but never follows through with it.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> I appreciate your input and agree that the argument over that prong collar was stupid. You guys wanted to see videos so I showed you the videos of the episodes that we prolonged for the sake of getting the video or the ones from the very first episodes where our pretty much perfectly behaved dog just sort of started growling. He does listen to commands. Again, there is no way this dog would have made it through 10 commercial flights, TSA, trains, buses, elevators packed with people if he didn't listen. I asked Mike if he could do a video call in the next two weeks before we got there. I explained the most recent episode and Mike said he has some ghosts in his head that might not be able to be trained out. Hopefully that isn't the case and that we and we are just doing everything wrong


Again, not trying to be mean. I'm watching the dogs body language and listening to you and your husbands tones, watching hubs body language and your hand movements. I can easily see this escalating. So just minimal handling, avoid confrontation, lock him up if you have to and go see the trainer!


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## WNGD

I think we can pretty much shut this down until you hear from the trainer. Be safe until then.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> @Jamie Lynn
> 
> Two things that stuck out, to me, of the top of my head, were in the first video he's "praising" the dog by massaging his back while at the same time telling the dog "nononononononono" for growling.
> 
> I really can't blame the dog for being confused because I'm still confused. And then you start correcting him for growling with a prong and e-collar. No wonder there is conflict and confusion.
> 
> Then in the video where you said your husband was trying to correct him with a prong, your husband asks the dog to "sit" but never follows through with it.


Yes that was like one of the first times he ever growled and we were trying to figure out why he was growling. When your normal obedient dog growls seemingly unprovoked and you are super confused, but also trying to capture it on video you will not do the perfect steps. Maybe you would idk bc maybe you've had a nearly perfect dog growl at you randomly unprovoked and you could jump right to perfection and not need to videotape it


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## wolfy dog

You know at some point this dog will have to to pay the price if you don't take the needed action. Also you said that "he was being good because he wanted to play with you". What he wants is totally not important. You are being bullied by your own dog and a bite will be next if you don't stop making excuses for him. Lots of "yes, buts" here.


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## David Winners

@Jamie Lynn you are in over your head and it could get dangerous. No conflict with the dog until you get with Mike. Don't let the dog sit there and stare you down. Put him in another room or crate. 2 ball or some other high exertion activity that has no conflict several times a day.

Stay safe and relaxed.


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## Jamie Lynn

Thanks everyone for the tips, another thing we thought we could do before we get back to Indiana is put him on a strict schedule of waking up at a certain time, exercise at a specific time, food at a specific time, training at a certain time and then crate at night at certain time so he has more predictability in his life. 
In nyc he had more predictability of my husbands comings and goings and life in general. 
Now in quarantine my husband comes and goes so many times to run, bike or take phone calls and it stresses Lorenzo out so much. 
We are also going to implement NILIF, but I still feel his issues are anxiety related instead of dominance related bc he is very obedient and wants to please us. 
I know some of you still think he is untrained and we don't give him commands ever, if you want to see the way he is 99% of the time you can look at his Instagram @LorenzoTitak.


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## LuvShepherds

I haven’t said much but for the OP, one of the most powerful statements I heard when I adopted a dog I fostered who was a fear biter came from the trainer I used with him. He said a dog can be extremely well trained in obedience and still be a fear biter. No one doubts you trained him to do tasks, but this is more than that and different. Work with the recommended trainer when you can and let us know what happens.


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## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> I haven’t said much but for the OP, one of the most powerful statements I heard when I adopted a dog I fostered who was a fear biter came from the trainer I used with him. He said a dog can be extremely well trained in obedience and still be a fear biter. No one doubts you trained him to do tasks, but this is more than that and different. Work with the recommended trainer when you can and let us know what happens.


Ok will do, I compiled some training videos as "proof" that he is trained. Just in case anyone else was still unsure. 

Lorenzo heeling while holding a basket with my niece and mom








New video by Jamie Titak







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New video by Jamie Titak







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We had to have a virtual wedding so we did a dog show for my family at the end. We just started doing agility for fun 2 months before. He had never done any of this.









New video by Jamie Titak







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Working on schutzhund









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Puppy









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## wolfy dog

Curious to see how NILIF works. In addition try to completely ignoring him when you go about inside the house. Walk away and turn your head the away from him when he seeks your attention. Don't talk to him either.


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks everyone for the tips, another thing we thought we could do before we get back to Indiana is put him on a strict schedule of waking up at a certain time, exercise at a specific time, food at a specific time, training at a certain time and then crate at night at certain time so he has more predictability in his life.
> In nyc he had more predictability of my husbands comings and goings and life in general.
> Now in quarantine my husband comes and goes so many times to run, bike or take phone calls and it stresses Lorenzo out so much.
> We are also going to implement NILIF, but *I still feel his issues are anxiety related* instead of dominance related bc he is very obedient and wants to please us.
> I know some of you still think he is untrained and we don't give him commands ever, if you want to see the way he is 99% of the time you can look at his Instagram @LorenzoTitak.


I think many of us have said he looks anxious and stressed and he may be well trained but commands under duress are different than heel, come, lay down. I understand that it's different when you're trying to demonstrate the issue under video.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thanks everyone for the tips, another thing we thought we could do before we get back to Indiana is put him on a strict schedule of waking up at a certain time, exercise at a specific time, food at a specific time, training at a certain time and then crate at night at certain time so he has more predictability in his life.
> In nyc he had more predictability of my husbands comings and goings and life in general.
> Now in quarantine my husband comes and goes so many times to run, bike or take phone calls and it stresses Lorenzo out so much.
> We are also going to implement NILIF, but I still feel his issues are anxiety related instead of dominance related bc he is very obedient and wants to please us.
> I know some of you still think he is untrained and we don't give him commands ever, if you want to see the way he is 99% of the time you can look at his Instagram @LorenzoTitak.


In my experience, weak dogs thrive on routine. That doesn't change what they are, it simply makes life doable for them. The issues happen when the routine breaks down. This means that while the routine is in place and working you need to start laying a solid foundation to support you need to stray from the routine.
In your case it's possible that this is your issue, but I reiterate, don't get confrontational with this dog now! Let the trainer assess him and go from there. Keep everyone safe until then.


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## coolgsd

Jamie Lynn said:


> I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out, but he did.


What? The dog is either not sound of mind or was never trained to respect the family. The dog is ALWAYS the bottom of the totem and has to accept the beta position. If you trained him it shouldn't be growling or certainly not biting - regardless what your husband did with his arm (short of striking you and the dog went into a protection mode). If the pup was brought into the pack without issues, there shouldn't be problems unless it is emotional. It sounds like you have serious need of a good trainer but those kind of problems are usually never fully corrected. Sabis Mom's advice to not be confrontational is very good advice. At this point no one can recommend anything because the circumstances and behavior of the dog can't be seen.


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## coolgsd

I really hate seeing threads or comments about "biting". GSD's have a terrible reputation - nearly as bad as pitbulls - for biting. A GSD with a sound mind and nerves and also well trained and socialized will not likely bite anyone without being provoked. My wife always grabs our girls collar when someone strange comes around. It is like saying "watch them" and our girl gets keyed because my wife is keyed. I tell her "klar" and "platz" and go to meet the person casually. She deals with that fine because she doesn't sense any tension from me. I have only had two that would growl at me. One was a strong alpha that had not been trained or socialized and we had a serous confrontation to see who the alph really was. Turned out it was me. The other was more of an anxiety growl because he didn't like behind corrected. I didn't deal well with the second one and I didn't recognized he was afraid of me. His early training wasn't what he needed.
The point is someone has a pup or dog that bites or growls - there are not very many people that can figure out what the problem is and certainly not how to resolve it. So in the mean time more people get bit, more dog to dog aggression shows and the GSD continues to build a bad reputation. Get a good breeder and good genetics when buying a pup and do some research on training the pup - getting advice from owners that have a lot of experience and not some crackpot with a know it all attitude.


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## Jamie Lynn

coolgsd said:


> What? The dog is either not sound of mind or was never trained to respect the family. The dog is ALWAYS the bottom of the totem and has to accept the beta position. If you trained him it shouldn't be growling or certainly not biting - regardless what your husband did with his arm (short of striking you and the dog went into a protection mode). If the pup was brought into the pack without issues, there shouldn't be problems unless it is emotional. It sounds like you have serious need of a good trainer but those kind of problems are usually never fully corrected. Sabis Mom's advice to not be confrontational is very good advice. At this point no one can recommend anything because the circumstances and behavior of the dog can't be seen.


Yes, i only meant when a dog is growling and focused in one direction, you don't put your arm in between the growling dog and what it is growling at or you have a high chance of getting bitten by that dog. My point was that the dog didn't bite him in a more unprovoked manner. Yes it is still terrible, has a better prognosis than if my dog bit him without putting his arm between him and the object he was growling at.

We've been two days with no growling and that is good! he has also seemed more relaxed. In addition to doing the NILIF and starting a schedule I've been giving him these purina pro plan probiotics and zesty paw supplements that are supposed to help anxiety. 

I was talking to this behaviorist today and she said no "good" trainers use prong collars anymore because it causes aggressive. She also said that playing tug produced resource guarding aggresion. 
In addition she said emotional support animals were no longer on planes, that I know is not true, but she said she helped put the law in place. I asked her for some documentation bc the government website said they are still allowed. She couldn't provide it, so I know she was full of **** there. She was so arrogant and is apparently making a text book for Veterinary students on animal behavior. 

What is everyone's thoughts on prong collars? I'm pretty sure the tug o war and aggression thing has been debunked, but I don't know. What are your thoughts on behaviorists? I had reached out to her before you guys told me about Mike and she was calling me back. I'm still going to work with Mike, but thought I'd talk to her.

This is also the woman who told me to get him neutered asap and I said that he wasn't dog aggressive or stranger aggresive so I was worried it wouldn't help and could make it worse. Then she said I needed a better source of info, but this was from a university of Pennsylvania study, but I couldn't even get a word in to say that. Below is the study if any one is interested. 









Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadectomized and Intact Dogs


Gonadectomy is widely used to treat and prevent behavior problems including the aggressive behavior of dogs. The aim of this study was to determine whether aggressive behavior toward familiar people, strangers, or other dogs was significantly different ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Jamie Lynn

coolgsd said:


> I really hate seeing threads or comments about "biting". GSD's have a terrible reputation - nearly as bad as pitbulls - for biting. A GSD with a sound mind and nerves and also well trained and socialized will not likely bite anyone without being provoked. My wife always grabs our girls collar when someone strange comes around. It is like saying "watch them" and our girl gets keyed because my wife is keyed. I tell her "klar" and "platz" and go to meet the person casually. She deals with that fine because she doesn't sense any tension from me. I have only had two that would growl at me. One was a strong alpha that had not been trained or socialized and we had a serous confrontation to see who the alph really was. Turned out it was me. The other was more of an anxiety growl because he didn't like behind corrected. I didn't deal well with the second one and I didn't recognized he was afraid of me. His early training wasn't what he needed.
> The point is someone has a pup or dog that bites or growls - there are not very many people that can figure out what the problem is and certainly not how to resolve it. So in the mean time more people get bit, more dog to dog aggression shows and the GSD continues to build a bad reputation. Get a good breeder and good genetics when buying a pup and do some research on training the pup - getting advice from owners that have a lot of experience and not some crackpot with a know it all attitude.


I think pit bulls, gsds and other breeds with a large pound per pressure bite will always have a bad reputation for biting, just beacuse they can cause a significantly larger amount of damage than other dogs. 
There are plenty of small aggressive dogs, but when they bite you it doesn't matter. It's like the diference between a pellet gun an an ar-15. So by definition they are more dangerous in my opinion, especially with respect to children and babies bc they are so small and helpless.


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## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> *What is everyone's thoughts on prong collars? *I'm pretty sure the tug o war and aggression thing has been debunked, but I don't know. *What are your thoughts on behaviorists?* I had reached out to her before you guys told me about Mike and she was calling me back. I'm still going to work with Mike, but thought I'd talk to her.


Here is world renowned Ivan Balabanov on Dog Trainer versus Behaviorists:
All Positive Training or Old School Training - What's best for my dog? - Malinois


----------



## BubbaBearsMomma58

Jamie Lynn said:


> I wrote on here about a year ago about my dog growling at me. It started first when he would just growl at us if he was injured. Then he started growling when he was mad like if we left him alone. When we came back he growled. We had to move in march to Indiana which made things worse and now we are in florida for 6 weeks and he's growling more than ever and actually bit my husband one week ago. We had left him alone for 3 hours and when we came back he was very excited to see us, but growled at me when he was "saying hi to my husband" then my husband put his arm out to keep him away from me and my dog bit him. I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out, but he did. He gets a lot of exercise, we do some training everyday, he's never been abused or anything like that. We are thinking about neutering. I have read/heard many different opinions on what to do in this situation and was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same.


We had Caesar a beautiful German Shepherd. He was born without a tail but sweet until one day walki g our Jazzi, his lady an one of their babies. Suddenly Caesar attacked Jazzi. Then tried to get his baby. He growled so loud an kept shaking his head. I started rubbing his head as we rushed to the vet. Yes Caesar was fixed after the babies were born. As we got to the vet Caesar wouldn't let anyone get bear him but me. Yes I babies him .


Jamie Lynn said:


> I wrote on here about a year ago about my dog growling at me. It started first when he would just growl at us if he was injured. Then he started growling when he was mad like if we left him alone. When we came back he growled. We had to move in march to Indiana which made things worse and now we are in florida for 6 weeks and he's growling more than ever and actually bit my husband one week ago. We had left him alone for 3 hours and when we came back he was very excited to see us, but growled at me when he was "saying hi to my husband" then my husband put his arm out to keep him away from me and my dog bit him. I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out, but he did. He gets a lot of exercise, we do some training everyday, he's never been abused or anything like that. We are thinking about neutering. I have read/heard many different opinions on what to do in this situation and was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same.


Our Caesar was a beautiful German Shepherd. He was just over a year old. He was born without a tail which was unusual. We didn't know this until we received him from his plane ride as he came from New Jersey. After Jazzi an Caesar had their one set of babies. They both took care of all 14 babies together. Momma Jazzi didn't mind Caesar helping. After all the babies found good homes. We were walking Jazzi Caesar an baby Daisy. Out if no where Caesar tried to attack both if them but was howling so loud shaking his head. We rushed him to the vet an as we were driving as fast as possible I was rubbing Caesars head. No one could touch him but me. Even the vet 5hat cared for Caesar couldn't get near him. We had to muzzle him. The vet gave him a shot to calm him down. Come to find out all the times he growled he was trying to tell us something was wrong in his brain. He played down in my arms at the vet. Me thinking he was ok. Well a drip of blood came out his ear. He had a brain aneurysm an it busted. We had to do the hardest thing ever. I still today after 3 1/2 years cry over him.. The Vet said a few days later Caesar was a healthy boy other then the aneurysm.. I pray your fur baby don't have what our Caesar aka C- Bear had. I wish there was a way to put a picture up an yes you all would agree he was a georgious boy. Prayers your baby will be fine..


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## WNGD

I'd try to fix 100 biting GSD over a biting little dog Shih Tzu, Chihuahua etc since they often have so little basic foundation in training.
# hot take, just my experience


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## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> Here is world renowned Ivan Balabanov on Dog Trainer versus Behaviorists:
> All Positive Training or Old School Training - What's best for my dog? - Malinois


Thanks, this was a really informative article!


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## Jamie Lynn

BubbaBearsMomma58 said:


> We had Caesar a beautiful German Shepherd. He was born without a tail but sweet until one day walki g our Jazzi, his lady an one of their babies. Suddenly Caesar attacked Jazzi. Then tried to get his baby. He growled so loud an kept shaking his head. I started rubbing his head as we rushed to the vet. Yes Caesar was fixed after the babies were born. As we got to the vet Caesar wouldn't let anyone get bear him but me. Yes I babies him .
> 
> Our Caesar was a beautiful German Shepherd. He was just over a year old. He was born without a tail which was unusual. We didn't know this until we received him from his plane ride as he came from New Jersey. After Jazzi an Caesar had their one set of babies. They both took care of all 14 babies together. Momma Jazzi didn't mind Caesar helping. After all the babies found good homes. We were walking Jazzi Caesar an baby Daisy. Out if no where Caesar tried to attack both if them but was howling so loud shaking his head. We rushed him to the vet an as we were driving as fast as possible I was rubbing Caesars head. No one could touch him but me. Even the vet 5hat cared for Caesar couldn't get near him. We had to muzzle him. The vet gave him a shot to calm him down. Come to find out all the times he growled he was trying to tell us something was wrong in his brain. He played down in my arms at the vet. Me thinking he was ok. Well a drip of blood came out his ear. He had a brain aneurysm an it busted. We had to do the hardest thing ever. I still today after 3 1/2 years cry over him.. The Vet said a few days later Caesar was a healthy boy other then the aneurysm.. I pray your fur baby don't have what our Caesar aka C- Bear had. I wish there was a way to put a picture up an yes you all would agree he was a georgious boy. Prayers your baby will be fine..


Thank you for sharing your story, I'm so sorry for your loss, such a sad way to lose your best friend. I have hope that one day we will be reunited with all our dogs that passed before us. ❤


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## chuckd

WNGD said:


> I'd try to fix 100 biting GSD over a biting little dog Shih Tzu, Chihuahua etc since they *often* have so little basic foundation in training.
> # hot take, just my experience


I live in the chihuahua capitol of the universe and I can say, unequivocally, that they *never* have basic foundation training.

@Jamie Lynn
I have never worked with a canine behaviorist. I have met dozens of fellow pet owners casually, at training, at trials & shows who have enlisted behaviorists for various issues, from peeing indoors all the way to human social aggression. The "advice" given always seems to center around:
1. prongs are evil.
2. he/she needs to be neutered/spayed to be brought under control.
3. owner waited too long to neuter/spay
Ostensibly, behaviorists exist to tailor an intervention plan to individual dogs, yet I feel like l hear the same "plan" over and over, and applied to very different dogs.

Just my non-pro two cents.


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## Bearshandler

chuckd said:


> I live in the chihuahua capitol of the universe and I can say, unequivocally, that they *never* have basic foundation training.
> 
> @Jamie Lynn
> I have never worked with a canine behaviorist. I have met dozens of fellow pet owners casually, at training, at trials & shows who have enlisted behaviorists for various issues, from peeing indoors all the way to human social aggression. The "advice" given always seems to center around:
> 1. prongs are evil.
> 2. he/she needs to be neutered/spayed to be brought under control.
> 3. owner waited too long to neuter/spay
> Ostensibly, behaviorists exist to tailor an intervention plan to individual dogs, yet I feel like l hear the same "plan" over and over, and applied to very different dogs.
> 
> Just my non-pro two cents.


Have you ever met Jessica vampola?


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## LuvShepherds

I worked with a behaviorist who had a German Shepherd that was so cowed by him it was never aggressive or even demonstrative. The trainer did not like the breed, other than his own. He worked with three of my dogs over a period of years before I fired him. He said all three had fear based aggression (only 1 did). He’s also very expensive because of his “credentials.” Anyone can call themselves a behaviorist and there is no consistency in their methods or effectiveness. As soon as a better trainer began working in my area, I switched.

The first one believed all problems could be solved by neutering a dog and putting it in daycare. He liked prong collars. In fact, most of the better trainers here use them. The positive only trainers don’t have very good results with large breeds like ours. My current trainer starts with the least restrictive and invasive method, then adds in what is needed. His favorite tool is an English slip lead if a dog needs something more than a flat buckle collar and leash.


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## chuckd

Bearshandler said:


> Have you ever met Jessica vampola?


I've never met her, but she has an excellent reputation as a helper/handler/competitor. Why do you ask?


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## Bearshandler

chuckd said:


> I've never met her, but she has an excellent reputation as a helper/handler/competitor. Why do you ask?


She’s in your area. I think she refers to herself as a behaviorist. I don’t know her personally, but we know some of the same people.


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## WNGD

Bearshandler said:


> Have you ever met Jessica vampola?


No idea who she was but she looks badass


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## chuckd

Bearshandler said:


> She’s in your area. I think she refers to herself as a behaviorist. I don’t know her personally, but we know some of the same people.


I'd be less apt to poo-poo canine behaviorists, if they could back up their theories and methodology with tangible training results like Vampola's.


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## wolfy dog

Jamie Lynn said:


> There are plenty of small aggressive dogs, but when they bite you it doesn't matter. It's like the diference between a pellet gun an an ar-15. So by definition they are more dangerous in my opinion, especially with respect to children and babies bc they are so small and helpless.


In 2002 a Pomeranian killed a 3 month old baby by severing the jugular vein. Any dog with teeth can bite and cause horrible damage depending on their intention.








Pack of small dogs mauls woman to death


A pack of vicious small dogs mauled an Oklahoma woman to death, according to reports. Tracy Garcia was standing outside her home last week when what are believed to be her neighbor’s six stan…




nypost.com


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> In 2002 a Pomeranian killed a 3 month old baby by severing the jugular vein. Any dog with teeth can bite and cause horrible damage depending on their intention.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pack of small dogs mauls woman to death
> 
> 
> A pack of vicious small dogs mauled an Oklahoma woman to death, according to reports. Tracy Garcia was standing outside her home last week when what are believed to be her neighbor’s six stan…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


That is a really freak accident for it to have gotten the baby in the juglar. But, yes any dog can fatally injure a child, it is just much more rare for it to be a small dog. If you look at the statistics and talk to ER doctors it's almost always pitbull, doberman or gsd.

This just happened, the parents shouldn't have left the baby unsupervised within the dogs reach.









German shepherd kills 2-month-old baby girl in Hampton; police say parents awoke to movement on bed


Police have not released the names of the baby or her parents. A Hampton police spokesman said that there are no charges pending.




www.pilotonline.com


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## wolfy dog

Jamie Lynn said:


> This just happened, the parents shouldn't have left the baby unsupervised within the dogs reach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> German shepherd kills 2-month-old baby girl in Hampton; police say parents awoke to movement on bed
> 
> 
> Police have not released the names of the baby or her parents. A Hampton police spokesman said that there are no charges pending.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pilotonline.com


It is a strange story and it does have a weird vibe to it. First it was a GSD mix, then they mentioned GSD. it happened next to the parents bed at 3.00 AM. How is this at all possible? Other articles stated that the baby was in the parents' bed and that the owner immediately shot the dog after the attack.
It is true however that dogs have attacked a baby in an electronic baby swing. I always tell my doula clients to put the swing with baby in it in an exercise pen or put the dog away for that time.


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## WNGD

wolfy dog said:


> It is a strange story and it does have a weird vibe to it. First it was a GSD mix, then they mentioned GSD. it happened next to the parents bed at 3.00 AM. How is this at all possible? Other articles stated that the baby was in the parents' bed and that the owner immediately shot the dog after the attack.
> It is true however that dogs have attacked a baby in an electronic baby swing. I always tell my doula clients to put the swing with baby in it in an exercise pen or put the dog away for that time.


That's weird, I have a new (2 month old) grandchild who was born 3 weeks premature and just under 5 lbs, had trouble settling for the first 6 weeks. I remembered how magic the baby swings were for ours and went out and bought them one for use at our house; works like an amazing charm.

Harley is really interested in the baby but calm. Rogan loves to lay down right wherever the baby is and we were laughing at him last weekend since the swing was gently booping him on the snout with every front swing. He didn't care, he didn't move the one inch it would have taken to stop it....I moved the swing back after a few minutes.


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## wolfy dog

WNGD said:


> That's weird, I have a new (2 month old) grandchild who was born 3 weeks premature and just under 5 lbs, had trouble settling for the first 6 weeks. I remembered how magic the baby swings were for ours and went out and bought them one for use at our house; works like an amazing charm.
> 
> Harley is really interested in the baby but calm. Rogan loves to lay down right wherever the baby is and we were laughing at him last weekend since the swing was gently booping him on the snout with every front swing. He didn't care, he didn't move the one inch it would have taken to stop it....I moved the swing back after a few minutes.





WNGD said:


> That's weird, I have a new (2 month old) grandchild who was born 3 weeks premature and just under 5 lbs, had trouble settling for the first 6 weeks. I remembered how magic the baby swings were for ours and went out and bought them one for use at our house; works like an amazing charm.
> 
> Harley is really interested in the baby but calm. Rogan loves to lay down right wherever the baby is and we were laughing at him last weekend since the swing was gently booping him on the snout with every front swing. He didn't care, he didn't move the one inch it would have taken to stop it....I moved the swing back after a few minutes.


I wrote this so people would be aware. Of course not all dogs are like this.


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## WNGD

wolfy dog said:


> I wrote this so people would be aware. Of course not all dogs are like this.


I understood that. 

I thought you were pointing out a GSD predisposition to chase moving things. Both Harley and Rogan have very high twitch prey drives but seem to be able to distinguish between a rabbit and a baby swing


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## CactusWren

Jupiter has chased little kids before. A couple times he has lunged out and grabbed the front of their shirts! Both times, the kids made sudden moves, ran right in front of him (within 6 ft), despite their parents telling them not to. Jupiter seemed to be acting instinctually, but also under some amount of control, since in both cases he just grabbed a hold of the fabric and then let go.


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## Jamie Lynn

Good news, no growling and perfect behavior since his last episode on Nov. 2.


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## wolfy dog

What did you change?


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> What did you change?


A few things, put him on a set schedule, dinner at a certain time and breakfast at a certain time, and starting the day with a short run. i have been giving him those calming supplements from zesty paws and the purina calming probiotics. He is also sleeping in his crate every night now. I have also been making him sit more for things like his ball.
He is also using a halti on walks instead of a prong. I don't think that makes a difference. 

Also, each time after he growled before I made him go to the bathroom and stay in there as a consistent punishment. I know so many people are against the "timeout", but I'd rather try that to see if it works bc he hates separation so that could be punishment enough for him not to do it again. Before the timeout I was so shocked by his behavior that I didn't have consistent punishment.


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## wolfy dog

If you force him to go to the bathroom because he growled, you can escalate his aggression to you. Also by the time he is in the bathroom he won't associate it with the growling. How about telling him Down Stay for a few minutes right when he growls so he knows the link between growl and down stay.


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## WayneGSLoveBug

Jamie Lynn said:


> I wrote on here about a year ago about my dog growling at me. It started first when he would just growl at us if he was injured. Then he started growling when he was mad like if we left him alone. When we came back he growled. We had to move in march to Indiana which made things worse and now we are in florida for 6 weeks and he's growling more than ever and actually bit my husband one week ago. We had left him alone for 3 hours and when we came back he was very excited to see us, but growled at me when he was "saying hi to my husband" then my husband put his arm out to keep him away from me and my dog bit him. I know my husband shouldn't have put his arm out, but he did. He gets a lot of exercise, we do some training everyday, he's never been abused or anything like that. We are thinking about neutering. I have read/heard many different opinions on what to do in this situation and was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same.


Mine growls but he's actually communicating to us. It's not bad. He knows we love him. We have established boundaries living with him and he does very well. I just realized I am allergic to him. He no longer sleeps in our room and he isn't mad. So GS are extremely intelligent.


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## Jamie Lynn

We still haven't had any more growling. However, he is still super weird to me whenever we leave him, so I just avoid him for a while when I return. 
It's so weird bc whenever my husband gets home Lorenzo is so happy to see him. But whenever I leave and come back he's pissed and wants zero to do with me.


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## wolfy dog

Jamie Lynn said:


> But whenever I leave and come back he's pissed and wants zero to do with me.


Is it possible to get that on video? I am curious about it


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## Heartandsoul

Just a small thought, try visualizing exactly how you want him to look at you when you get home so that when you enter your home you are seeing that picture in you mind while ignoring him til he settles. It may sound stupid but it does often work at helping to change some things and it can’t do any harm.


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## WNGD

I'm just glad something is working to some degree for you. But taking a dog who suffers or acts out after separation and punishes him by separation seems counter intuitive


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## wolfy dog

WNGD said:


> I'm just glad something is working to some degree for you. But taking a dog who suffers or acts out after separation and punishes him by separation seems counter intuitive


Great point. It might be the simple reason for his behavior when you come home; the anticipation of chaos, associated with you. If you change your behavior like you are doing it may very well go away. Or call him to you, have him sit when you get home, give him a treat and ignore him. No other greeting.


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## Pytheis

While it’s likely a combination of things here, he could be associating you coming home with an unpleasant experience. One time I opened the door after getting home and smacked my golden retriever with said door, then stepped hard on her tail as she scrambled to move. For literally a month she would tuck her tail and ears and go hide when I got home. All from ONE INCIDENT. Maybe you came home one time and punished him for something, and he now associates you coming home with bad things happening? Who knows. That’s all I have to contribute to this thread.


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> Is it possible to get that on video? I am curious about it


Yeah, I can get a video, but it might be a long time until it happens again bc it is rare for both of us to leave a the same time during covid


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> I'm just glad something is working to some degree for you. But taking a dog who suffers or acts out after separation and punishes him by separation seems counter intuitive


Yeah, I agree, but when he first started growling I just redirected him by giving him commands and he'd snap out if it. But I don't think he ever learned that growling at me is not okay when i redirected him. At the beginning he could seemed to growl when he was injured so I was okay with redirecting, but now I feel like I need to do some type of consistent punishment bc I don't want escalation from the growling. And I don't want to be growled at. 
The prong collar correction doesn't work in this situation for the growling, the shock collar could but timing would be difficult bc I don't have the remote in my hand 24/7. But with the timeout in thr bathroom the second he growls I can put him in there, so he knows why he's there. It's safer for me bc I'm not going to get bit and when he comes out of the bathroom, he's completely out of his mood. If I were just redirecting him he doesn't snap out of it. I'm open to other thoughts though.


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## Jamie Lynn

Pytheis said:


> While it’s likely a combination of things here, he could be associating you coming home with an unpleasant experience. One time I opened the door after getting home and smacked my golden retriever with said door, then stepped hard on her tail as she scrambled to move. For literally a month she would tuck her tail and ears and go hide when I got home. All from ONE INCIDENT. Maybe you came home one time and punished him for something, and he now associates you coming home with bad things happening? Who knows. That’s all I have to contribute to this thread.


Haha could be, he has blamed me for him hurting himself before. He growled at me once bc he jumped on me and got his paw stuck in the zipper of my coat. He also ran into a table or something and blamed me bc I was near by.


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## GSDchoice

Pytheis said:


> While it’s likely a combination of things here, he could be associating you coming home with an unpleasant experience. One time I opened the door after getting home and smacked my golden retriever with said door, then stepped hard on her tail as she scrambled to move. For literally a month she would tuck her tail and ears and go hide when I got home. All from ONE INCIDENT. Maybe you came home one time and punished him for something, and he now associates you coming home with bad things happening? Who knows. That’s all I have to contribute to this thread.


So true! My husband and dog were coming home from a walk and when he was unlocking the front door, he accidentally dropped his keys on Rumo's head (He has a big jangly set of keys...office, lab, cars, etc). Ever since that incident, if Rumo is coming in with my husband, he insists on waiting at the bottom of the front steps until the door is open!

In one sense it's amusing, but in the other sense it shows you how one "aversive" incident can be so powerful. 
( And it's very specific - with me, he comes right in. So he has associated it with place + person. )


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## Jamie Lynn

Just an update for everyone, we are back in Indiana and things are still going well. Mike actually lives about 30 mins from us and doesn't do house calls. Since Lorenzo is only having issues in the house I don't know if it would have been helpful. But Mike did give us the name of someone closer to us that does do housecalls, so if we have issues again we can contact that person.
I think part of it was that in the beginning he growled when he was injured so i felt bad and didn't make it clear that growling is not okay. I didn't correct him at all for growling at me if he was injured. Bc when he knows clearly what he can and can't do he's pretty obedient. Like he started thinking about eating my mom's dog's food and just the tone of my voice saying "don't even think about it" snapped him out of his thought process. 

The only time he has growled since the last time was right after he finished eating, my husband came in the room and tried to pick him up from behind like hovering over him and arms around his lower chest pulling him up. I told him to not do that, but he didn't hear me before he did it. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that growling in that situation is warranted. Like if someone tried to pick me up putting pressure on my stomach right after I ate I'd yell at them too. I didn't correct him for the first growl, but then he growled at my husband like 30 seconds after and I corrected that even though I felt bad about it. But that was the end of that episode.


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## Sunsilver

I think the reason for the growl in this case was he was being possessive of his food bowl right after eating. Food aggression isn't cool. You did the right thing!

On the other hand, the first thing my parents taught me as a kid was to NEVER bother a dog when it's eating! Why did your husband try to pick him up? Hovering over a dog like that can also be interpreted as an attempt to dominate.


----------



## wolfy dog

Husbands are much harder to train than dogs. Not helpful advice, I know.


----------



## Sunsilver

Oh yes...


----------



## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Just an update for everyone, we are back in Indiana and things are still going well. Mike actually lives about 30 mins from us and doesn't do house calls. Since Lorenzo is only having issues in the house I don't know if it would have been helpful. But Mike did give us the name of someone closer to us that does do housecalls, so if we have issues again we can contact that person.
> I think part of it was that in the beginning he growled when he was injured so i felt bad and didn't make it clear that growling is not okay. I didn't correct him at all for growling at me if he was injured. Bc when he knows clearly what he can and can't do he's pretty obedient. Like he started thinking about eating my mom's dog's food and just the tone of my voice saying "don't even think about it" snapped him out of his thought process.
> 
> The only time he has growled since the last time was right after he finished eating, my husband came in the room and tried to pick him up from behind like hovering over him and arms around his lower chest pulling him up. I told him to not do that, but he didn't hear me before he did it. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that growling in that situation is warranted. Like if someone tried to pick me up putting pressure on my stomach right after I ate I'd yell at them too. I didn't correct him for the first growl, but then he growled at my husband like 30 seconds after and I corrected that even though I felt bad about it. But that was the end of that episode.


Sorry, why would you ever feel bad for correcting a dog that's growling at it's owner for virtually anything? I pick up my dogs off the floor by the chest all the time from above and from the side; it's how we hug. I take their food away and give back regularly and anyone in my family can; it's my food until it's consumed, then u can keep it 

I'm glad things have gotten so much better but the original problem started from not disciplining correctly (yes you should have corrected the first time he growled this time again too) and making excuses that reinforced undesired behaviors.

An owner should never "feel bad" for properly correcting their dog. What they should feel bad for is not correcting a potentially dangerous situation or correcting poorly and confusing the dog. For example, do you really think your dog understands that he was allowed to growl at his owner since he just ate but it wasn't OK 30 seconds later? Zero consistency which is the hallmark of good training.


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## LuvShepherds

I agree not to bother a dog from behind and especially not while eating or just after. That is not being a responsible dog owner. Mine would not growl but might squirm out of reach if I did that and he didn’t feel like being touched. A stable dog can handle anything but a nervy dog who is already predisposed to growl should not be teased. That could undo all the good work you’ve done.


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## WNGD

Touch paws, pull tail, rub ears, boop nose, examine teeth, cut nails, lift up, take food and toys. 
A properly handled dog will put up with anything, certainly not growl at you.

I pick my dogs up in the air occasionally and carry them around  .... it gives them the zoomies


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## Sunsilver

Here's the low down on why it's a bad idea to hug dogs - most of them don't like it!








Why Dogs Don't Like to Be Hugged


It's great to show our four-legged best friends how much we love them. But maybe hugging should be taken off the list.




www.treehugger.com


----------



## WNGD

Sunsilver said:


> Here's the low down on why it's a bad idea to hug dogs - most of them don't like it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Dogs Don't Like to Be Hugged
> 
> 
> It's great to show our four-legged best friends how much we love them. But maybe hugging should be taken off the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.treehugger.com


"There are myriad ways dogs say hello depending on if they know each other and are reforming old bonds, or are meeting for the first time and feeling each other out as they establish the pecking order. There is face smelling, rump smelling, tail wagging, play bowing... but there is never hugging."

So maybe we should lick their mouths and smell their butts? This sounds like the "wolves don't sit article"


----------



## LuvShepherds

My dog doesn’t like the feeling of being restrained. It has nothing to do with touch. We have worked on him for five years and it has helped a lot, but I still would not lift him from behind. He loves hugs now and often climbs onto the couch to snuggle. Why do something I know he will not like when there are other ways to touch him?


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## Sunsilver

WNDG, the article explains why dogs are genetically programmed to NOT like hugging. You want to deny this, you are denying the nature of the animal, and why so many kids (and adults) get bitten every year, because they can't read a dog's body language!


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## Jen84

WNGD said:


> Touch paws, pull tail, rub ears, boop nose, examine teeth, cut nails, lift up, take food and toys.
> A properly handled dog will put up with anything, certainly not growl at you.
> 
> I pick my dogs up in the air occasionally and carry them around  .... it gives them the zoomies





WNGD said:


> I pick up my dogs off the floor by the chest all the time from above and from the side; it's how we hug. I take their food away and give back regularly and anyone in my family can; it's my food until it's consumed, then u can keep it


Some strong and serious dogs will not tolerate some of these things. And if not handled to tailor their temperament, will quickly send you to the hospital or create conflict.


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## Sunsilver

When I look at those pictures of dogs 'hugging', I don't see affection, I see something entirely different. And I'm willing to bet a lot of those photos were 'set up' by the owner/trainer. It is NOT a natural behaviour for them. They are not little humans with fur coats!

If we stopped trying to make dogs into 'fur babies' the world would be a much better place for them, and for our relationship with them!


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## WNGD

Wrong handlers or wrong dogs. I own what most would say is a strong serious dog. I've had females that would be described as very strong and very serious dogs. So I still would say "A properly handled dog will put up with anything, certainly not growl at you" ymmv

I can do whatever I need to do with my dogs without fear since it's an expectation from 8 weeks old. And I expect it would and will be the same with any dog I own or I wouldn't own that temperament. I'm not super-trainer but I can only go by my own experience and belief, that dog would not growl at me for lifting it up if I had raised it, much more likely to be wagging it's tail. In your opinion maybe accepting more than enjoying.

I'm not here to advocate hugging your dog, do (or not) whatever fills your boots. But there's zero chance any dog of mine would growl or bite me for picking their front off the floor and I don't have to worry about handling them to suit their temperament; it's the other way around since I have trained balanced dogs.


----------



## WNGD

Sunsilver said:


> When I look at those pictures of dogs 'hugging', I don't see affection, I see something entirely different. And I'm willing to bet a lot of those photos were 'set up' by the owner/trainer. It is NOT a natural behaviour for them.


It's all in fun, chill. Dogs don't hug since their arms generally don't work that way. They don't pet each other either btw but seem to enjoy it when we do.

Anyway this has taken a silly turn, this was about a dog growling at it's owner for being picked half off the floor after eating and corrections required. He wasn't hugging it and the dog has a history of serious owner aggression.

But, no affection here? You must somehow see discomfort and hate?
I guess we all see what we want to see.


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## CactusWren

I have a command: "hug". I say it and then my dog accepts a hug. He doesn't like it, of course, but he gets lots of other stuff, like food, treats, exercise, and other fun, so I feel it's okay to take a "hug tax."


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## Galathiel

All those pictures are staged ... they are trained tricks.

Yes, I can do all those things to my dog (I can't pick him up and don't try ... he's too long bodied and I can't do it!). However, he was a resource guarder as a pup and I worked hard to make sure that he knew that I didn't arbitrarily take his food away and it did take him a long time before he really relaxed about it. He has strong drives to possess. _shrug_ As a young pup, he was also resource guardy over toys, but that I extinguished immediately and it wasn't difficult. Food was more of a challenge and I don't 'test' it. if I need him to move, I call him off and then move the food or do whatever I need. I'm smart about it.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Sunsilver said:


> When I look at those pictures of dogs 'hugging', I don't see affection, I see something entirely different. And I'm willing to bet a lot of those photos were 'set up' by the owner/trainer. It is NOT a natural behaviour for them. They are not little humans with fur coats!
> 
> If we stopped trying to make dogs into 'fur babies' the world would be a much better place for them, and for our relationship with them!


When my dogs hug, it’s aggression and I break them apart, and separate them in different rooms. It’s actually the younger one squeezing the older or the older one climbing on his back.


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## Sunsilver

WNGD said:


> But, no affection here? You must somehow see discomfort and hate?
> I guess we all see what we want to see.


Why would I see discomfort and hate?? No, I see what someone who REALLY understands dog body language sees: Dog Behavior With Placing Paws

And LuvShepherds is correct, where another dog is concerned, it's usually an attempt to say "I'm top dog here!"

BTW, I studied animal behaviour at the university level, so no, I don't just see what I want to see.









The Data Says "Don't Hug the Dog!"


New data shows that hugging your dog raises its stress and anxiety levels.




www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## LuvShepherds

We tend to assign human emotions to dogs. They are not hugging out of affection like we do.


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## WNGD

LuvShepherds said:


> We tend to assign human emotions to dogs. They are not hugging out of affection like we do.


Of course not. It was supposed to be funny/amusing and has turned into a treatise on dog psychology/physiology .... and still too many missing the point of the OP; there was no hugging involved as it's now come to be discussed. 

Dogs don't pet each other but we do and they don't growl generally.
Dogs don't put sweaters or costumes on each other and many (most) clearly aren't comfortable with it but some people insist on it because they think it's cute (no judgement). I'm sure it stresses them .... 

Relax. No one is running around advocating that we all hug each other's dogs. Or that dogs hug each other or ride bicycles or use straws .... unless I can find some funny pictures showing they do 









WHAT? That's not natural and was just set up for a photo?!?


----------



## dogma13




----------



## dogma13




----------



## Sunsilver

Why I destroy your Christmas tree, and chew up your $300 winter boots... 🤣


----------



## Sunsilver

Adding a little humour here...










Sorry if I took this too far. But it's something I take seriously, because SO many dog bites are the result of dogs being hugged when they don't want to be. And we all know what happens to dogs that bite kids!


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## WNGD

No offense taken here. I just don't see it in the top 1000 reasons why dogs bite and nothing to get worked up over, that's all. And again, the OP said nothing about her boyfriend hugging the dog.

But just to poke it a bit further, I'm glad I didn't know about this in April ....and yes, the Siberian looks uncomfortable 








National Hug Your Dog Day


National Hug Your Dog Day means it's time you shower your very best friend with extra special love and attention. Here are ways to celebrate.




nationaltoday.com




.


----------



## Sunsilver

Where's the hair-pulling emoticon when you need it??

FAKE NEWS!! (Yes, I know you know because you highlighted it...) 😁


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## IllinoisNative

For me, I know most dogs don’t like hugs. Mine does... the little freak. How do I know? He initiates it. Yep, he hugs me. He’s an extremely affectionate dog for a German Shepherd. That’s not the norm. I had a GSD/Rottie mix. He tolerated being hugged but didn’t like it. He wanted to be by me but not on me. Dexter wants to be on me. 😂

Whether the dog likes it or not, I expect them to tolerate it from me/family without being aggressive. That being said, if a dog doesn’t like it, I do my best to respect that. But any dog I raise from puppyhood should not react aggressive to me or the immediate family whether we hug the dog or bump into the dog, etc. With pain, I make an exception.

So while I agree that most dogs don’t like hugging, I don’t expect them to act aggressive with immediate family if they are hugged.


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> Husbands are much harder to train than dogs. Not helpful advice, I know.


Yes they are 😆


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## Jamie Lynn

Ugh we had another growl last night, but again it was my husband. We let him back on the bed after he stopped having problems with him. Last night he was lying next to my husband on the bed and my husband wanted to move him so he grabbed him around the chest and started to lift him over and I was like stop, don't do it bc I knew he was going to flip Lorenzo over himself to be on the otherside of him. 
This is probably hard to picture, but Lorenzo would have to be flipped from one side to his back to the other side and every dog hates being flipped that way, and starts flailing on their back. 
I kept saying don't do it, my husband did anyway and I could tell Lorenzo was pissed and I was pissed too bc I think Lorenzo kind of got slightly hurt. So Lorenzo gets off the bed bc he is like get me tf out of here. Then he gets back on and does a barely audible growl and i was like did he just growl? And then i touched him on the back to see his mindset before I fell asleep and he started growling pretty bad. So we corrected Lorenzo, but again I'm just like well I would be pissed off too. Do you guys feel like these are growls that I really need to be concerned about or that I just need to get my husband to stop doing this type of stuff?


----------



## dogma13

I'll let the more experienced trainers answer in more detail. But I will say this is something you will likely have to keep forefront in your mind as you interact with him. And seriously, stop grabbing him and use verbal commands to move him.


----------



## Pytheis

Seriously, stop trying to physically control this dog. It’s creating nothing but conflict. Teach him verbal commands and use them every single time. And SERIOUSLY Do. Not. Let. This. Dog. On. The. Bed. Period. Full stop. That’s my advice.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Pytheis said:


> Seriously, stop trying to physically control this dog. It’s creating nothing but conflict. Teach him verbal commands and use them every single time. And SERIOUSLY Do. Not. Let. This. Dog. On. The. Bed. Period. Full stop. That’s my advice.


My dog knows and will respond to verbal commands, my husband on the other hand....jk, but I think this time he really got the point he needs to not do what he did....i hope.


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## David Winners

I would not correct this growl. I would correct the husband.

You guys are eroding trust with the dog in both directions. Physically man handling a dog that doesn't trust you creates stress. The only way this approach will work is to totally shut the dog down and nobody (that I respect) wants that.

You have to build a relationship. That includes a predictable routine for things. The dog needs to feel safe and comfortable, knowing that nothing bad is going to happen. Build routines and habits that work for everyone in your household, including the dog.

On the bed, not on the bed, I don't think it matters as long as he is treated fairly and is offered the opportunity to do the right thing. This right thing needs to be trained and understood, rewarded, generalized before you correct the dog for non compliance, just like any other behavior.

The next time the DH picks the dog up or shoves him around, the DH goes in the crate for a timeout. This is totally unacceptable behavior given the circumstances. It could take you back to step one in a hurry.


----------



## wolfy dog

Sunsilver said:


> Sorry if I took this too far. But it's something I take seriously, because SO many dog bites are the result of dogs being hugged when they don't want to be. And we all know what happens to dogs that bite kids!


That's just what happened a few years ago in a nearby town. A visiting kid hugged the resident dog. He growled and was punished for it. The kid hugged him again and was bitten. The dog was put down. It is still upsetting to me.
The OP is playing Russian Roulette with her dog's life too; lots of wishy-washy training that only confuses the dog more. You don't want to live with a confused GSD who has already shown aggression. When do you guys get it?


----------



## Sunsilver

David Winners said:


> The next time the DH picks the dog up or shoves him around, the DH goes in the crate for a timeout. This is totally unacceptable behavior given the circumstances. It could take you back to step one in a hurry.


AMEN!!


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## wolfy dog

If my husband would undermine my training like that, it would be a marital crisis, not a divorce but I would choose the dog's life by rehoming the dog to a stable home.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> I would not correct this growl. I would correct the husband.
> 
> You guys are eroding trust with the dog in both directions. Physically man handling a dog that doesn't trust you creates stress. The only way this approach will work is to totally shut the dog down and nobody (that I respect) wants that.
> 
> You have to build a relationship. That includes a predictable routine for things. The dog needs to feel safe and comfortable, knowing that nothing bad is going to happen. Build routines and habits that work for everyone in your household, including the dog.
> 
> On the bed, not on the bed, I don't think it matters as long as he is treated fairly and is offered the opportunity to do the right thing. This right thing needs to be trained and understood, rewarded, generalized before you correct the dog for non compliance, just like any other behavior.
> 
> The next time the DH picks the dog up or shoves him around, the DH goes in the crate for a timeout. This is totally unacceptable behavior given the circumstances. It could take you back to step one in a hurry.


Into the crate the husband will go for sure next time. Really hoping there is no next time, first time I was annoyed second time I was just as pissed off as Lorenzo.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> That's just what happened a few years ago in a nearby town. A visiting kid hugged the resident dog. He growled and was punished for it. The kid hugged him again and was bitten. The dog was put down. It is still upsetting to me.
> The OP is playing Russian Roulette with her dog's life too; lots of wishy-washy training that only confuses the dog more. You don't want to live with a confused GSD who has already shown aggression. When do you guys get it?





wolfy dog said:


> If my husband would undermine my training like that, it would be a marital crisis, not a divorce but I would choose the dog's life by rehoming the dog to a stable home.


Yeah I was definitely furious and he gets it, so I'm hoping that is really the end of it. Sometimes he doesn't think before he acts and he didn't know much about dogs previously. 
The only dog's he's ever had before Lorenzo were mastiffs on a Orchard in Spain that protected the sheep from wolves. I don't think either of us were really aware we were not getting a pet when we got Lorenzo. So it's a learning curve for both of us, but especially for him. I had an fear aggressive shelter dog in the past so i know some things, but he just didn't.


----------



## Rionel

I may have overlooked it, but have you had a veterinarian check him out? Injured/sick dogs can have some pretty irregular but harsh outbursts. It could be something as simple as a thyroid imbalance or something grave (hope not). If you do that, and he's medically good, then I would definitely get an appropriate trainer involved. That's a potentially serious injury on the horizon.


----------



## WNGD

I'll just say again, that dog should not be on the bed or couch. Period. Stop elevating it to equal status until it's learned its place and that's a privilege not a right.
And your husband continues to be part of the problem....


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Rionel said:


> I may have overlooked it, but have you had a veterinarian check him out? Injured/sick dogs can have some pretty irregular but harsh outbursts. It could be something as simple as a thyroid imbalance or something grave (hope not). If you do that, and he's medically good, then I would definitely get an appropriate trainer involved. That's a potentially serious injury on the horizon.


He's been to the vet and has no medical issues


----------



## LuvShepherds

Your husband doesn’t seem capable of owning or handling this dog. I don’t say this lightly and it’s not meant to offend. He is asking for a bite or worse. It’s very possible if he is impulsive or has ADD, he can’t remember, so getting angry isn’t a solution either. I feel sorry for your dog who has been very clear about what he can and can’t tolerate and is being ignored. If it was me and I wanted to stay married, I would rehome the dog.


----------



## IllinoisNative

LuvShepherds said:


> Your husband doesn’t seem capable of owning or handling this dog. I don’t say this lightly and it’s not meant to offend. He is asking for a bite or worse. It’s very possible if he is impulsive or has ADD, he can’t remember, so getting angry isn’t a solution either. I feel sorry for your dog who has been very clear about what he can and can’t tolerate and is being ignored. If it was me and I wanted to stay married, I would rehome the dog.


If it were me, I’d rehome the husband...lol. I’m not sure I could live with someone that undermined my efforts.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> Your husband doesn’t seem capable of owning or handling this dog. I don’t say this lightly and it’s not meant to offend. He is asking for a bite or worse. It’s very possible if he is impulsive or has ADD, he can’t remember, so getting angry isn’t a solution either. I feel sorry for your dog who has been very clear about what he can and can’t tolerate and is being ignored. If it was me and I wanted to stay married, I would rehome the dog.


I think that is a little extreme....things are great 99.9% of the time. My husband runs him every morning, then he gets two thirty minute training/agility sessions daily and gets a walk at night. He absolutely loves my husband.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

IllinoisNative said:


> If it were me, I’d rehome the husband...lol. I’m not sure I could live with someone that undermined my efforts.


Again a little extreme, he messed up two times and feels really bad about it. Whoever you marry will have imperfections, you can't have it all. When we were in nyc he trained schutzhund with him every Saturday morning rain or shine in central park.


----------



## Sunsilver

My husband-to-be took my dog out of the vet's where she was being boarded while I was away for the long weekend, and forgot to pick up her food. Since the stores were closed, he rummaged through the cupboards, and decided to give her some bran flakes, with predictable results. Which he DID NOT TELL ME ABOUT until AFTER I got home, and she had messed on the carpet!!

I still married him...


----------



## LuvShepherds

Jamie Lynn said:


> I think that is a little extreme....things are great 99.9% of the time. My husband runs him every morning, then he gets two thirty minute training/agility sessions daily and gets a walk at night. He absolutely loves my husband.


All it takes is once for your husband to get a bad bite. Dogs don’t think in terms of 99%. They live in the moment. This is not intended to be a criticism but your posts about the dog and your husband worry me a lot. If he absolutely loves your husband, then he would not react the way he does to being grabbed or lifted.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> All it takes is once for your husband to get a bad bite. Dogs don’t think in terms of 99%. They live in the moment. This is not intended to be a criticism but your posts about the dog and your husband worry me a lot. If he absolutely loves your husband, then he would not react the way he does to being grabbed or lifted.


Dogs, humans and all animals get mad at and hurt things they love sometimes.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Sunsilver said:


> My husband-to-be took my dog out of the vet's where she was being boarded while I was away for the long weekend, and forgot to pick up her food. Since the stores were closed, he rummaged through the cupboards, and decided to give her some bran flakes, with predictable results. Which he DID NOT TELL ME ABOUT until AFTER I got home, and she had messed on the carpet!!
> 
> I still married him...


Yeah sadly, men just don't make good choices sometimes


----------



## LuvShepherds

My dogs never hurt me. My family members and friends never hurt me. It seems like you are comfortable with your dog’s behavior 99.9% of the time. If you aren’t worried about the .1% then I’m not either.


----------



## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Again a little extreme, he messed up two times and feels really bad about it. Whoever you marry will have imperfections, you can't have it all. When we were in nyc he trained schutzhund with him every Saturday morning rain or shine in central park.


I think he just needs to remember every time not to manhandle/over handle the dog. The dog will have to respond to verbal commands every time. I already said that I wouldn't have tolerated the very first growl months ago or ever again. And get it off the bed.

The dog knows there are no serious consequences to thinly veiled aggression. A bite will be the next test imo.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

LuvShepherds said:


> My dogs never hurt me. My family members and friends never hurt me. It seems like you are comfortable with your dog’s behavior 99.9% of the time. If you aren’t worried about the .1% then I’m not either.


I didn't say that I was comfortable with his negative behaviors, but that rehoming him is an extreme suggestion given this situation.


----------



## Magwart

IllinoisNative said:


> If it were me, I’d rehome the husband...lol.


But not before neutering him! (Kidding.....)

On a more serious note, if the DH is willing to learn, there's a really good book by a renowned behaviorist called "The Other End of the Leash" about how dogs perceive the world, and how differently primates do. We experience touch (and many other things) differently. It's a really good first-introduction to how dog minds work -- it's also a classic book every dog owner should read at some point.


----------



## Jen84

WNGD said:


> I think he just needs to remember every time not to manhandle/over handle the dog. The dog will have to respond to verbal commands every time. I already said that I wouldn't have tolerated the very first growl months ago or ever again. And get it off the bed.
> 
> The dog knows there are no serious consequences to thinly veiled aggression. A bite will be the next test imo.


I am just curious how you would of handled the growl the very first time it showed up?

And I agree with you about the bed.


----------



## David Winners

I guess I have a way out there opinion on this. When a dog growls, I look at why. That's the important thing. It's just communication. It's not aggression. It can be a precursor, a warning sign, but in and of itself, it's just communication.

A dog has a right to be comfortable. There are a lot of ways to achieve this but I think they all center around a mindset of respect. Respect for their wishes and feelings. Ok, your uncomfortable. Let's work on that.

Crushing a behavior like growling it's silencing communication that is important to me.


----------



## Jen84

Jamie Lynn said:


> I think that is a little extreme....things are great 99.9% of the time. My husband runs him every morning, then he gets two thirty minute training/agility sessions daily and gets a walk at night. He absolutely loves my husband.


Like I said earlier, I'm not sure exactly what type of temperament your dog has. But some hard dogs with high fight and handler aggression, and a good degree of dominance that won't submit to very hard corrections, are better handled using finesse.

It's called mutual respect and going along with the dog without losing face. Real obedience is your friend. And I'm not talking about circus tricks.

The most important thing with handler aggressive dog is understanding them. You do not handle an introvert optimally the same way you deal with an extrovert.

You need to learn how to handle the dog in front of you. You cannot keep doing something that doesn't work.

You grab the wrong dog the way your husband did and he will change your life. Your dog does not sound overly "sharp" or overly dominant. He sounds like a very nice dog that isn't being handled correctly in day to day life.

Here are some terms that might help you understand your dog better:

Schutzhund Village - part 1 by armin winkler

Schutzhund Village - part 2


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> Like I said earlier, I'm not sure exactly what type of temperament your dog has. But some hard dogs with high fight and handler aggression, and a good degree of dominance that won't submit to very hard corrections, are better handled using finesse.
> 
> It's called mutual respect and going along with the dog without losing face. Real obedience is your friend. And I'm not talking about circus tricks.
> 
> The most important thing with handler aggressive dog is understanding them. You do not handle an introvert optimally the same way you deal with an extrovert.
> 
> You need to learn how to handle the dog in front of you. You cannot keep doing something that doesn't work.
> 
> You grab the wrong dog the way your husband did and he will change your life. Your dog does not sound overly "sharp" or overly dominant. He sounds like a very nice dog that isn't being handled correctly in day to day life.
> 
> Here are some terms that might help you understand your dog better:
> 
> Schutzhund Village - part 1 by armin winkler
> 
> Schutzhund Village - part 2


I agree I don't think he is overly dominant, but he will voice his opinion if he feels like something is unfair. One of the first times he growled was when my husband accidentally threw the ball too fast at him, which I thought was funny at the time, bc it was just a low growl with him being like what the heck was that. Looking back now I should have said no.I
But that sort of goes back to the debate of whether a dog should be allowed to growl to voice his opinion, bc he really just said hey, that wasn't cool, do not throw the ball so fast.
He will never growl if I tell him to do something though. If I tell him to do something he does it, even if he is mad.

I know how to read Lorenzo, my husband is not as good bc like I said the only dogs he's had are mastiffs to protect the sheep from wolves in Spain. I think reading dogs takes years of experience and he just doesn't have that yet.

I will check out those links thanks.


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## Bearshandler

I believe you should be able to handle your dog safely. The two big factors in that to me are relationship and communication. Both of those go hand in hand. You’re dog needs to trust you to allow you place him in an uncomfortable position. Or they could be intimidated into submission. One of those options can get you bit with the wrong dog.


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## Jenny720

In my opinion I think it’s very important to contact the trainer I think it is very important and will be helpful to your husband. Your dog does not seem to be so serious or dominant. I do see rescource guarding. I would not let him on the furniture and crate him at night always. I see anxiousness and stress as result of the rescource guarding and also perhaps from anticipating the corrections. Without finding something that works successfully tensions will only build. Constancy is key. Even though he knows commands it’s under pressure and stress is where leadership presents itself. Doing the same thing over and over and not getting the results will build tension as well. Perhaps a place command in the same room or command to knockout it off. Place command or crated your husband leaves the house given opportunities to practice what you want. A trainer most certainly be able to help even if they don’t come to the house.


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## Rionel

Jamie Lynn said:


> The bite wasn't severe it barely left a mark.


This could be a bad sign as well. To me it says the dog is testing you, but isn't confident to commit to a full bite. I assume you are aware of how bad a German Shepherd bite can be? What will you do once the dog has gained more confidence, especially if it is someone else around you in public? Like someone else mentioned about here, I would not allow a dog with that behavior to assume the same level as me on a bed. That can be an incremental dominance test. Once the behavior is modified, sure, but not until his testing has been brought under control. I think people are trying to impress upon you that you may not realize how serious this could get, not to insult, but to avoid a bad situation for you and your dog.


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## Rionel

LuvShepherds said:


> If he absolutely loves your husband, then he would not react the way he does to being grabbed or lifted.


I agree, something sounds off.


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## WNGD

David Winners said:


> I guess I have a way out there opinion on this. When a dog growls, I look at why. That's the important thing. It's just communication. It's not aggression. It can be a precursor, a warning sign, but in and of itself, it's just communication.
> 
> A dog has a right to be comfortable. There are a lot of ways to achieve this but I think they all center around a mindset of respect. Respect for their wishes and feelings. Ok, your uncomfortable. Let's work on that.
> 
> Crushing a behavior like growling it's silencing communication that is important to me.


I'm really trying to understand what you're saying David. I have never had one of my dogs growl at me or my kids, ever. I don't think I could ever allow that. Does that mean my dogs have never been uncomfortable or put in a position that they'd sooner not do?

There are a ton of ways for a dog to communicate discomfort before growling or biting the owner. I would counter that either the owner is putting the dog into clearly uncomfortable situations beyond what should reasonably be expected (unlikely for the majority of owners) or missing subtle to obvious communication that should have preceded the growl.

I would treat a serious growl just like a snap at me. Yes, I want to understand why but no, it's not going to happen more than once. Guess what Rogan? I have the right and position to make you uncomfortable once in awhile. Suck it up


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## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I'm really trying to understand what you're saying David. I have never had one of my dogs growl at me or my kids, ever. I don't think I could ever allow that. Does that mean my dogs have never been uncomfortable or put in a position that they'd sooner not do?
> 
> There are a ton of ways for a dog to communicate discomfort before growling or biting the owner. I would counter that either the owner is putting the dog into clearly uncomfortable situations beyond what should reasonably be expected (unlikely for the majority of owners) or missing subtle to obvious communication that should have preceded the growl.
> 
> I would treat a serious growl just like a snap at me. Yes, I want to understand why but no, it's not going to happen more than once. Guess what Rogan? I have the right and position to make you uncomfortable once in awhile. Suck it up


So the crux of this is that words mean little without perspective. You mentioned all the little signs that a dog uses to communicate discomfort. The OP didn't mention those.

Either they missed them, don't know what they are, or they weren't there to begin with.

So how do you move forward with the information you have? Correct the dog for growling and the next time there is no warning, just a bite? If they are missing the cues, there is no warning.

How do you gauge the temperament of the dog without observing interactions? Happy dog that is playful and vocal, confused dog that is showing avoidance and needs correcting or fearful dog that is throwing calming signals and just wants a safe space.

I'd like your honest review of this video. It is far more information than we have from the OP because we can see the dogs communication. Feel free to pick it apart. Look at :40 particularly closely and let me know what you think is going on and what the appropriate response would be.


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## Bearshandler

WNGD said:


> I'm really trying to understand what you're saying David. I have never had one of my dogs growl at me or my kids, ever. I don't think I could ever allow that. Does that mean my dogs have never been uncomfortable or put in a position that they'd sooner not do?
> 
> There are a ton of ways for a dog to communicate discomfort before growling or biting the owner. I would counter that either the owner is putting the dog into clearly uncomfortable situations beyond what should reasonably be expected (unlikely for the majority of owners) or missing subtle to obvious communication that should have preceded the growl.
> 
> I would treat a serious growl just like a snap at me. Yes, I want to understand why but no, it's not going to happen more than once. Guess what Rogan? I have the right and position to make you uncomfortable once in awhile. Suck it up


One thing I believe is that simply punishing and correcting for a growl is removing a step in the communication chain. That means when the dog is moving down the line to bite you, not only do you have one less indicator that it’s about to happen, but you’ve lost one that tells you how close you are to being bite. I definitely don’t treat them the same. What happens when a dog comes up the leash at me is over the top for a growl. I agree with being able to handle the dog. In this case, I think most of the issues stem from training the husband has done with the dog, where some inappropriate corrections were used. This has created a conflict in their relationship. If there weren’t this conflict, I don’t he would be in much risk of being bit.


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## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I have never had one of my dogs growl at me or my kids, ever. I don't think I could ever allow that. Does that mean my dogs have never been uncomfortable or put in a position that they'd sooner not do?


When we first brought him home, Lucian (7 months CC) would growl at my 2 yo granddaughter when she got in his face. We trained her to respect that communication and give him some space. No need to be scared. He's just telling you he doesn't like that. If you don't respect his talking to you, you may make him mad and he may bite you.

I never corrected Lucian for growling. I worked with both of them together to build trust, remove the discomfort and remove the habit the granddaughter had of getting in the face of a dog.


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> So the crux of this is that words mean little without perspective. You mentioned all the little signs that a dog uses to communicate discomfort. The OP didn't mention those.
> 
> Either they missed them, don't know what they are, or they weren't there to begin with.
> 
> So how do you move forward with the information you have? Correct the dog for growling and the next time there is no warning, just a bite? If they are missing the cues, there is no warning.
> 
> How do you gauge the temperament of the dog without observing interactions? Happy dog that is playful and vocal, confused dog that is showing avoidance and needs correcting or fearful dog that is throwing calming signals and just wants a safe space.
> 
> I'd like your honest review of this video. It is far more information than we have from the OP because we can see the dogs communication. Feel free to pick it apart.


In the beginning, it looked like Hank wasn’t interested in playing and Valor was being a typical pushy puppy. As it went on it looked more like he was playing or warmed up to the idea more. I can’t see the tail, which is one of the big pieces I look at when judging mindset. His bod language never screamed I’m about to hurt you kid to me and there was never the direct response I’d expect if he had enough. Valor simply looked like a bunch of initiating play behaviors. Watching it the second time, it appears to be mostly play.


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> In the beginning, it looked like Hank wasn’t interested in playing and Valor was being a typical pushy puppy. As it went on it looked more like he was playing or warmed up to the idea more. I can’t see the tail, which is one of the big pieces I look at when judging mindset. His bod language never screamed I’m about to hurt you kid to me and there was never the direct response I’d expect if he had enough. Valor simply looked like a bunch of initiating play behaviors. Watching it the second time, it appears to be mostly play.


Look at 40 seconds


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## wolfy dog

A growl is a signal to you to fix an issue. If you punish a growl he will have learned not to but to bite. A growl gives you time to act. Punishing it is like putting a bandaid over a sore. GSDs in general will give plenty of warning before biting, ...if you can read a dog.


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## Jen84

David Winners said:


> Look at 40 seconds


This is beautiful.


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## LuvShepherds

I still don’t think the dog is the problem. As long as the cause is brushed aside because the owner refuses to consider it a problem, the potential to bite won’t be fixed. In the end, the dog will be the one that suffers if the person continues to mistreat it. A dog that has clearly let the owners know it can’t tolerate certain behaviors should not be subjected to them by a novice. It’s a form of passive abuse. Will the dog ever enjoy being grabbed from behind and flung around, even with training? I doubt it. That .1% is very important.


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## David Winners

LuvShepherds said:


> I still don’t think the dog is the problem. As long as the cause is brushed aside because the owner refuses to consider it a problem, the potential to bite won’t be fixed. In the end, the dog will be the one that suffers if the person continues to mistreat it. A dog that has clearly let the owners know it can’t tolerate certain behaviors should not be subjected to them by a novice. It’s a form of passive abuse. Will the dog ever enjoy being grabbed from behind and flung around, even with training? I doubt it. That .1% is very important.


I don't see the OP brushing anything aside. I think they are trying to move forward by learning what to do and what not to do. I think that is a very good situation.


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## dogma13

My dogs play in a very similar manner as Hank and Valor sometimes. This my takeaway from observing mine:
Dog 1- mine mine mine
Dog 2- I don't want possession, only play
Dog 1- mulls it over....ok but remember it's really mine
Then they have a game of back and forth when they have a mutual agreement


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## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> I don't see the OP brushing anything aside. I think they are trying to move forward by learning what to do and what not to do. I think that is a very good situation.


I thought I read from the OP that it doesn’t happen often, therefore its less of a problem than if it did. Again, the solution isn’t with the dog, it’s with the owner. I was that stubborn owner with a rescue who liked to bite people for the wrong reasons. I worked with a trainer for a long time and finally relaxed, thinking the problem was solved. Then a woman tried to touch him on a walk after I clearly told her to stay back and I ended up with a big doctor bill to pay. The dog had to be managed but he was not cured. Once I wrapped my head around the idea that there was no foolproof cure, all our lives got much easier. The management here is simple if the OPs husband is willing to respect the dog’s tolerances. My educational background isn’t in dogs, it’s in people. I’m speaking about the human element in the equation. The human element here is unpredictable, not the dog. The dog is very predictable.


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## Sunsilver

David Winners said:


> Look at 40 seconds


At this point, I'd be thinking of taking the toy away to avoid a fight over it.
Did I get that right?


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## WNGD

David Winners said:


> So the crux of this is that words mean little without perspective. You mentioned all the little signs that a dog uses to communicate discomfort. The OP didn't mention those.
> 
> Either they missed them, don't know what they are, or they weren't there to begin with.
> 
> So how do you move forward with the information you have? Correct the dog for growling and the next time there is no warning, just a bite? If they are missing the cues, there is no warning.
> 
> How do you gauge the temperament of the dog without observing interactions? Happy dog that is playful and vocal, confused dog that is showing avoidance and needs correcting or fearful dog that is throwing calming signals and just wants a safe space.
> 
> I'd like your honest review of this video. It is far more information than we have from the OP because we can see the dogs communication. Feel free to pick it apart. Look at :40 particularly closely and let me know what you think is going on and what the appropriate response would be.


The whole video is typical and perfect dog interaction in an established (if changing) family/pack dynamic. The .40 mark is appropriate and well delivered/received. I have seen Harley and Rogan do this many times, even today at 6 and 1 year old. No response is needed whatsoever.

The threshold for acceptability between a dog and human is lower for me. Yes, I would caution my children or visitors in what I see as inappropriate actions that would conceivably result in an understandable growl. If I have managed expectations on both sides, that growl need never and will never occur. They don't in my house. 

I can go further with my dogs than some people might think would elicit an acceptable growl. I can ask them to do things which they might not want to do, that's part of how our relationship grows. I can have do things to them that may make them uncomfortable; think of trimming nails or handling paws for many dogs without growls. The bar for me is very high to what I would say "I deserved that".


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Look at 40 seconds


At that point he does check him. I would have expected a stronger response after Valor started up again. There was a second response. After that Valor calms down a bit and Hank becomes more willing to play.


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## Jen84

WNGD said:


> The whole video is typical and perfect dog interaction in an established (if changing) family/pack dynamic. The .40 mark is appropriate and well delivered/received. I have seen Harley and Rogan do this many times, even today at 6 and 1 year old. No response is needed whatsoever.
> 
> *The threshold for acceptability between a dog and human is lower for me**. Yes, I would caution my children or visitors in what I see as inappropriate actions that would conceivably result in an understandable growl. If I have managed expectations on both sides, that growl need never and will never occur. They don't in my house*.
> 
> I can go further with my dogs than some people might think would elicit an acceptable growl. I can ask them to do things which they might not want to do, that's part of how our relationship grows. I can have do things to them that may make them uncomfortable; think of trimming nails or handling paws for many dogs without growls. The bar for me is very high to what I would say "I deserved that".


I understand your point and I agree somewhat. Now, I asked before and I'm still curious how you would address the growl?

Would you "scruff" the dog, collar correction, alpha roll, etc?

And what would you do if this correction failed to stop behavior?

You say wrong temperament?


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## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> Look at 40 seconds


I felt like this dog was mostly play growling, but there were a few seconds where he got super still and got his head down in a stare that would concern me if I didn't know the dog.
It's hard to tell bc postures can mean different things in different situations. My dog gets into a stalking position when he waits for me to throw his frisbee at the door. He's never been possesive about an object to a dog a human. Looking at this pic you might think he is, he just has insane drive and wants the frisbee thrown to him.


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## Jamie Lynn

David Winners said:


> I don't see the OP brushing anything aside. I think they are trying to move forward by learning what to do and what not to do. I think that is a very good situation.


Thank you, if I was brushing it aside like some people here think I wouldn't be here in the first place. I write down every growling episode in a journal with the dates times and what led up to it. 
It takes trial and error I think, not every dog is the same. What works for some people and their dogs will not work for others. Maybe some of the people on this sub who said their dog has never growled at them have a dog with better genes idk. 
He does allow me to brush his teeth and clean the inside of his ears ect. He will even yelp sometimes when I clean his ears, I'm not hurting him he's just sensative, but he doesn't growl.


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> I felt like this dog was mostly play growling, but there were a few seconds where he got super still and got his head down in a stare that would concern me if I didn't know the dog.
> It's hard to tell bc postures can mean different things in different situations. My dog gets into a stalking position when he waits for me to throw his frisbee at the door. He's never been possesive about an object to a dog a human. Looking at this pic you might think he is, he just has insane drive and wants the frisbee thrown to him.
> View attachment 566960
> View attachment 566961


That's just the normal Border Collie/Australian Cattle Dog/Heeler prey stare.


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## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> Thank you, if I was brushing it aside like some people here think I wouldn't be here in the first place. I write down every growling episode in a journal with the dates times and what led up to it.
> It takes trial and error I think, not every dog is the same. What works for some people and their dogs will not work for others. Maybe some of the people on this sub who said their dog has never growled at them have *a dog with better genes* idk.
> He does allow me to brush his teeth and clean the inside of his ears ect. He will even yelp sometimes when I clean his ears, I'm not hurting him he's just sensative, but he doesn't growl.


Or developed a different relationship or wouldn't allow it past the very first time.
*6 GSD over 40 years, none from what would be considered a top breeder, certainly different gene pools.


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## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> Or developed a different relationship or wouldn't allow it past the very first time.
> *6 GSD over 40 years, none from what would be considered a top breeder, certainly different gene pools.


Sometimes like others have said on this sub, the top breeders are the ones that had dogs with "handler aggresion "


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## Jen84

WNGD said:


> Or developed a different relationship or wouldn't allow it past the very first time.
> *6 GSD over 40 years, none from what would be considered a top breeder, certainly different gene pools.


You are very unlikely to see real aggression from Canadian Showlines.


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## Jamie Lynn

Jen84 said:


> You are very unlikely to see real aggression from Canadian Showlines.


Yes, I think a showline is an entirely different ballgame. My dog has very high drive, my trainer said he was more like a malinois bc of his drive.


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## David Winners

Sunsilver said:


> At this point, I'd be thinking of taking the toy away to avoid a fight over it.
> Did I get that right?


What's happening at 40 seconds is resource guarding. You can see a big difference in ear set and eyes in Hank. Valor freezes, moves slowly, dips ears, licks mouth, all calming behaviors. Then Hank changes back to play. 

Where you have problems, in both dog to dog and dog to human interactions, is when one party doesn't understand this language or won't give in for the betterment of play. Back to motivation. Is the relationship more important than the object? To what degree? Will that vary depending on the conversation?

My version of a correct response is to let it go because of my understanding of the relationship they have together and my understanding of Valor and his response to reactions like this. I know Hank and Valor well. Hank used to resource guard everything from everyone, but he has trust in people and dogs again. Valor is fantastic at defusing situations.


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## Sabis mom

WNGD said:


> I would treat a serious growl just like a snap at me. Yes, I want to understand why but no, it's not going to happen more than once.


I have never corrected growling, and I won't. Think taking the batteries out of the smoke detector.

I have and will again used a sharp "Hey!" to snap a dog out of focus. That's as close as I get to a correction. It will either make a dog snap out of it or incite a reaction, which I can then deal with as needed. 

One of the reasons I dislike threads like this is because often the OP will get conflicting advice or flat out bad advice that they then use and make things worse.
I've handled some pretty wild dogs, lots of Canadian Show lines btw, several that wanted to flat out maul anyone in range. 
My very number one rule with any aggression was one handler. Every person has different body language, tones and timing. If I have a dog that is being aggressive, no one but me is doing anything until I resolve that. 
Op you need to stop messing about. Train the dog or don't. And you need to get this idea out of your head that this will get fixed in a few minutes. The dog didn't act up for a few weeks because you did nothing to upset him and you fell right back into old habits. I took on multiple rehab cases of many breeds and I NEVER let the dogs go back to their original owners. Why? Because dogs can be trained, people can't.


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## LuvShepherds

I just posted this somewhere else. It might help to defer guarding type behaviors onto something else. If your dog loves frisbees, this is the go-to frisbee guy. Teach this skill first, then frisbee.


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> I have never corrected growling, and I won't. Think taking the batteries out of the smoke detector.
> 
> I have and will again used a sharp "Hey!" to snap a dog out of focus. That's as close as I get to a correction. It will either make a dog snap out of it or incite a reaction, which I can then deal with as needed.
> 
> One of the reasons I dislike threads like this is because often the OP will get conflicting advice or flat out bad advice that they then use and make things worse.
> I've handled some pretty wild dogs, lots of Canadian Show lines btw, several that wanted to flat out maul anyone in range.
> My very number one rule with any aggression was one handler. Every person has different body language, tones and timing. If I have a dog that is being aggressive, no one but me is doing anything until I resolve that.
> Op you need to stop messing about. Train the dog or don't. And you need to get this idea out of your head that this will get fixed in a few minutes. The dog didn't act up for a few weeks because you did nothing to upset him and you fell right back into old habits. I took on multiple rehab cases of many breeds and I NEVER let the dogs go back to their original owners. Why? Because dogs can be trained, people can't.


Lol, I've never said that I thought it would be fixed in minutes. What kind of idiot thinks a dog can be fixed in minutes? No problem with animal or human behavior can be fixed in minutes. It takes persistance, study and trial and error. Many behavior problems can't even be fixed, they are just managed. I don't think i'm dealing with that. I do think this can be fixed, but it will take time and sometimes setbacks.
I think anyone who posts on here knows they are going to get conflicting advice, bad advice and good advice. You have to filter through it to find the gems which makes the condescending comments from some of you worth it. Some of you are not condescending and I appreciate that.
And about the dog not acting up in a few weeks bc I did nothing to upset him.... He's acted up like 10 times in his 2.5 years and I have to do things all the time to him that he doesn't like, brushing his teeth, cleaning his ears, cleaning dirt off him everyday from training.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> Lol, I've never said that I thought it would be fixed in minutes. What kind of idiot thinks a dog can be fixed in minutes?


You were concerned about a behavior, you asked for advice, you took some of it, the dog behaved for a second and then you post about him growling at your husband. Why? Because you did exactly the things that caused the issue in the first place.


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## LuvShepherds

I guess I’m one who is condescending and that’s not my intention at all. I care about your dog. What I’m trying to say is that with dogs who have developed or are born with a tendency toward unacceptable behaviors, sometimes it can be trained away and sometimes all it needs is to be avoided. I speak from personal experience with two dogs. I posted about one of them, the rescue biter. The other was different herding breed, weighed about 40 lbs and was generally good with people but started growling at me and only me when I lifted him out of his dog run rather than open the gate which was temperamental. He was the only dog I’ve had that needed a run because he ran constantly all day long and I had small children and no time. The last time I did that, he turned on me, growled, grabbed my shirt and shredded it. I was scared enough to consider giving him back to the breeder. Then my husband said Just stop lifting him. So, I did, and he never did it again. Ideally, I should have been able to train him to tolerate being lifted, but in practice, I was unable to do that.


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> You were concerned about a behavior, you asked for advice, you took some of it, the dog behaved for a second and then you post about him growling at your husband. Why? Because you did exactly the things that caused the issue in the first place.


He was actually growling about different things. Before he was resource guarding my husband and separation anxiety. These previous two times he was growling bc my husband wasn't respecting his space. I don't know how you can say with such certainty that I went back to doing the same things that caused the issue bc I didn't. I do appreciate the advice, but I could do without the attitude.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> He was actually growling about different things. Before he was resource guarding my husband and separation anxiety. These previous two times he was growling bc my husband wasn't respecting his space. I don't know how you can say with such certainty that I went back to doing the same things that caused the issue bc I didn't. I do appreciate the advice, but I could do without the attitude.


There is a difference between attitude and honesty. I've watched every single video you posted. Every single one. 
This dog is looking for leadership and protesting unfair handling. I love that you want to fix this, I wish you would take more of the really good advice that has been offered by people who know. 
Like get a trainer.


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## Rionel

Jamie Lynn said:


> What kind of idiot thinks a dog can be fixed in minutes?


Maybe not fixed in every case, but new parameters establish certainly, in minutes. There are many, many examples of actual dog trainers addressing this in videos. Stay safe.


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## Rionel

Jamie Lynn said:


> .... He's acted up like 10 times in his 2.5 years and I have to do things all the time to him that he doesn't like, brushing his teeth, cleaning his ears, cleaning dirt off him everyday from training.


OK, 10 times in 2.5 years would indicate 10 failed attempts to correct, or 10 times ignoring the behavior.

Here's a contrast. My dog had to be peeled off a 100+ dog that attacked us while walking. When she let go of her bite on his muzzle to get a better bite, I palmed her whole muzzle as the other dog retreated. She continued her defense and moved forward past my palm, but never once redirected her attack on me. That is a clear headed dog. Can you trust your dog that much? Mine has minimal training, and I have made a bunch of mistakes with her, but she is reliable.


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## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> There is a difference between attitude and honesty. I've watched every single video you posted. Every single one.
> This dog is looking for leadership and protesting unfair handling. I love that you want to fix this, I wish you would take more of the really good advice that has been offered by people who know.
> Like get a trainer.


I have had a schutzhund trainer since I got him. He's been doing schutzhund since it came to America.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> I have had a schutzhund trainer since I got him. He's been doing schutzhund since it came to America.


Look, not my circus not my monkeys. There is a difference between doing something and doing it well, and I sincerely doubt that your trainer has been doing "Schutzhund training" for 50 years. I'm not a trainer, I'm not even all that smart. But I know dogs. And I know people. I watched your videos, and if that's your trainer talking then he is either not that good, or telling you what you want to hear so you keep paying. I watched your hubby twice miss the timing and reward your dog for the wrong action, I watched him at least twice correct the dog for doing what he should. No biggy, every one learns. Except your trainer? talking in the background? good, good, good job. 
I watched you repeating commands all over the place. I get it, I do it to, I'm chatty. But you have a trainer! A command is given once! Because in most sports or trials you get penalized for a double command. 
I watched both of you give wishy washy commands and corrections, and even contradict each other. I have read your comments and watched you excuse and downplay a pattern of behavior that is escalating.
I'm not being mean, I'm being honest. You have a dog that is going to need you both to step up, and drop your egos.


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## LuvShepherds

I was curious to see if your dog had precious history and found this from a little over a year ago. You were having the same problem then, it’s not new.









My 18 month old snarled at me randomly yesterday


Hi everyone, I have an 18 month old working line bicolored GSD, he has always been for the most part very friendly. We live in nyc so he has seen it all. He has only growled at me twice in his life. The first time, it was kind of my fault because I tried to make him give me a kiss before giving...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Bearshandler

Jamie Lynn said:


> I have had a schutzhund trainer since I got him. He's been doing schutzhund since it came to America.


Who is your trainer? Have you ever brought these issues up to them? There is a difference between working with a trainer for schutzhund and working with then fit off field issues.


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## LuvShepherds

Bearshandler said:


> Who is your trainer? Have you ever brought these issues up to them? There is a difference between working with a trainer for schutzhund and working with then fit off field issues.


In home behaviors fall under house manners. A trainer I used with my rescues said some of the worst behaved dogs he has every worked with in a home have had various titles. Usually in obedience.


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> Who is your trainer? Have you ever brought these issues up to them? There is a difference between working with a trainer for schutzhund and working with then fit off field issues.


According to the previous thread this dog was being trained for schutzhund. I would like to know who assessed this dog initially.
Way back at the beginning of this thread some serious questions/concerns were raised about the genetics behind this dog and his suitability for a pet/novice home.


----------



## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> He was actually growling about different things. Before he was *resource guarding* my husband and separation anxiety. These previous two times he was growling bc my husband *wasn't respecting his space*. I don't know how you can say with such certainty that I went back to doing the same things that caused the issue bc I didn't. I do appreciate the advice, but I could do without the attitude.


"*I know* that dogs don't necessarily like to be hugged, *he knew* I was leaving bc I had swim suit on and *he could have been *hurt are reasons *I think* he could have done this. *I really don't think* he was that hurt bc he didn't yelp."

Others above used the term "unfair handling" referring to just moving the dog in a manner he didn't like.

Respectfully (in light of I might be one of the condescending ones and certainly am giving you conflicting recommendations), you seem to project a lot of emotions and justifications onto your dog and this situation.

There are zero, none, never reasons to be growled at by your dog. Some here disagree and hold out that this is just acceptable "communication". A dog has 18 ways to communicate before it should as a last resort in (REMOVED BY MOD) growl at his owner.

I'm talking about a pet raised from a puppy, not a rescue with pre-existing issues. For the most part, you should not put your dog in uncomfortable situations and learn to recognize the early signs of the aforementioned discomfort. But even a strong willed dog should be able to be hugged, picked up, teeth/ears/paws examined, moved off the couch/bed at will, food taken, toys taken, collar grabbed, turned on his back, ears/eyes cleaned, tail pulled, brushed, nails clipped and virtually any other thing you can think of that isn't cruel, in fact might be necessary and the dog would prefer not to do .... and not be growled at.

It's one very short step away from being snapped at or bitten and that's just not going to happen.

Take someone else's advice (especially to get a good trainer, maybe Schutzhund is contributing here?), there's some very smart GSD owners on here.

REMOVED SWEARING. YOU KNOW BETTER.

Thanks,

David (mod team)


----------



## David Winners

I get what you all are saying. I also empathize with @Jamie Lynn . I was in over my head with a dog once. My first working dog. I learned a lot. Made some mistakes. Figured it out. Happy trails. @Saphire was in over her head with Gus. I guarantee most people are in over their head at some point if they are training working line dogs.

If I posted about my first week with Fama, out of context and only shared behaviors, many would say to put her down. Learning to work and train her opened a huge understanding of dogs that led to a career as a trainer of military and police dogs.

Let's give Jamie a chance here and let her work things out. No one has stitches, and she's learning, just like we all did at some point.


----------



## Saphire

We all learn BY making mistakes. Lord knows I made many with Gus and still came out the other end with an amazing dog, just took me a little longer to get there.


----------



## Bearshandler

My favorite dog was a female named Karai. I picked her because she was the most assertive puppy there and had an aloof attitude with people. She grew up to be a lot more dog than I was ready for. She didn’t just resource guard, our other dog flat out couldn’t eat when she was around. She became very dog aggressive as well as human aggressive. She wasn’t fear aggressive either. She was put down after jumping the fence in the backyard and biting someone walking down the street. I certainly understand being in over my head with a dog.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> "*I know* that dogs don't necessarily like to be hugged, *he knew* I was leaving bc I had swim suit on and *he could have been *hurt are reasons *I think* he could have done this. *I really don't think* he was that hurt bc he didn't yelp."
> 
> Others above used the term "unfair handling" referring to just moving the dog in a manner he didn't like.
> 
> Respectfully (in light of I might be one of the condescending ones and certainly am giving you conflicting recommendations), you seem to project a lot of emotions and justifications onto your dog and this situation.
> 
> There are zero, none, never reasons to be growled at by your dog. Some here disagree and hold out that this is just acceptable "communication". A dog has 18 ways to communicate before it should as a last resort in (REMOVED BY MOD) growl at his owner.
> 
> I'm talking about a pet raised from a puppy, not a rescue with pre-existing issues. For the most part, you should not put your dog in uncomfortable situations and learn to recognize the early signs of the aforementioned discomfort. But even a strong willed dog should be able to be hugged, picked up, teeth/ears/paws examined, moved off the couch/bed at will, food taken, toys taken, collar grabbed, turned on his back, ears/eyes cleaned, tail pulled, brushed, nails clipped and virtually any other thing you can think of that isn't cruel, in fact might be necessary and the dog would prefer not to do .... and not be growled at.
> 
> It's one very short step away from being snapped at or bitten and that's just not going to happen.
> 
> Take someone else's advice (especially to get a good trainer, maybe Schutzhund is contributing here?), there's some very smart GSD owners on here.
> 
> REMOVED SWEARING. YOU KNOW BETTER.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David (mod team)


I don't know your dogs, but I do know that if you have never had a dog growl at you, you can't put yourself in this position. You are throwing around ultimatums without ever having these experiences.


----------



## Bearshandler

WNGD said:


> Others above used the term "unfair handling" referring to just moving the dog in a manner he didn't like.


When I say unfair handling by the husband it has nothing to do with moving the dog. It is something that happened long before these issues. This dog has received many poorly timed, poorly communicated, unnecessary, and flat out wrong corrections. That is what I’m referring to. Look at the post by @Sabis mom. She wasn’t calling them out for taking the dig off the bed. Mistakes like those can lead to a dig who doesn’t trust you and isn’t comfortable interacting with you. The suggestions of using stronger corrections I feel like are going to lead to someone getting bite. I have had dogs that would bite people, me included. The answer wasn’t always meet force with force. I believe the husband needs to build the trust up with this dog with more positive experiences, especially involving handling.


----------



## Sabis mom

@Jamie Lynn I got my first patrol dog because they thought he would scare me off. I was deliberately, and with malice, set up to fail. That dog was a jerk! his very first move was to try and bite me simply for giving him a command. Show one ounce of weakness with that dog and you were toast. You want to talk about a learning curve? I was used to rescues and farm dogs. I had trained some obedience dogs and was used to being around police dogs but This was a whole new game. 
We went on to be a highly productive team, but he was way ahead of me and I spent our whole year together feeling like I was running to keep up. He bit me, he knocked me down, he blew off commands. He was a great dog, but not for a green handler. I had to learn, and fast. It was either that or quit and I'm no quitter. 
I've worked a few dogs like him since, but he is always the one that I chuckle about. 
I don't want you to give up on your dog, I want you to get it together and learn to handle him. If what you are doing was working you wouldn't have arrived at this spot.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> @Jamie Lynn I got my first patrol dog because they thought he would scare me off. I was deliberately, and with malice, set up to fail. That dog was a jerk! his very first move was to try and bite me simply for giving him a command. Show one ounce of weakness with that dog and you were toast. You want to talk about a learning curve? I was used to rescues and farm dogs. I had trained some obedience dogs and was used to being around police dogs but This was a whole new game.
> We went on to be a highly productive team, but he was way ahead of me and I spent our whole year together feeling like I was running to keep up. He bit me, he knocked me down, he blew off commands. He was a great dog, but not for a green handler. I had to learn, and fast. It was either that or quit and I'm no quitter.
> I've worked a few dogs like him since, but he is always the one that I chuckle about.
> I don't want you to give up on your dog, I want you to get it together and learn to handle him. If what you are doing was working you wouldn't have arrived at this spot.


I'm glad things worked out well with the patrol dog and that their plan to scare you off didn't work. I'm not trying to do the same things I have done in the past before I came to the sub. I have taken advice from here, Lorenzo's dad's breeder, Lorenzo's dad's owner, my trainer and am tailioring it to see what works best for Lorenzo. I'm unsure why you think I haven't listened and have done the same thing, which in the beginning was nothing bc I thought he was growling bc he was injured. It's going to be and has been a process.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> "*I know* that dogs don't necessarily like to be hugged, *he knew* I was leaving bc I had swim suit on and *he could have been *hurt are reasons *I think* he could have done this. *I really don't think* he was that hurt bc he didn't yelp."
> 
> Others above used the term "unfair handling" referring to just moving the dog in a manner he didn't like.
> 
> Respectfully (in light of I might be one of the condescending ones and certainly am giving you conflicting recommendations), you seem to project a lot of emotions and justifications onto your dog and this situation.
> 
> There are zero, none, never reasons to be growled at by your dog. Some here disagree and hold out that this is just acceptable "communication". A dog has 18 ways to communicate before it should as a last resort in (REMOVED BY MOD) growl at his owner.
> 
> I'm talking about a pet raised from a puppy, not a rescue with pre-existing issues. For the most part, you should not put your dog in uncomfortable situations and learn to recognize the early signs of the aforementioned discomfort. But even a strong willed dog should be able to be hugged, picked up, teeth/ears/paws examined, moved off the couch/bed at will, food taken, toys taken, collar grabbed, turned on his back, ears/eyes cleaned, tail pulled, brushed, nails clipped and virtually any other thing you can think of that isn't cruel, in fact might be necessary and the dog would prefer not to do .... and not be growled at.
> 
> It's one very short step away from being snapped at or bitten and that's just not going to happen.
> 
> Take someone else's advice (especially to get a good trainer, maybe Schutzhund is contributing here?), there's some very smart GSD owners on here.
> 
> REMOVED SWEARING. YOU KNOW BETTER.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David (mod team)


These are not justifications, these are pieces of context. I can't just say my dog growled and leave it at that, I have to give the context in which he growled for anyone to possibly have any idea what happened.


----------



## Jenny720

My first gsd was And extreme serious dog but well put together dog. I acquired him at two police trained and super naturally well behaved. Never had issues with the dog. Never had to keep up with training. He would get uncomfortable with physical contact like hugging It would make him uncomfortable he never growled or anything just the look in his eye would be enough- he had huge eyes and they would bug out of his head it was hard to miss. His space was respected. He refused to jump on the bed and at night he actually chose to sleep in the guest room in the spare bed. For the longest time he would get extremely uncomfortable if you even looked at him in the back seat of the car. Again just mutual respect and during play some quick strokes on his legs , paws the no touching zones and hundreds of fun rides in the car he improved a small amount even was comfortable sharing his space in the back of the car. No pressure all fun and no expectations. Now if this dog had episodes of growling there most certainly would be something a miss. There is growling to say hey I’m not happy and things are readjusted. There is rescource guarding, there is growling when provoked , growling as a warning before a bite. Most often you know why growling is occurring And Readjust. I don’t see that here I see you need to work with a trainer as to how to handle this all because the dog actually put his teeth on your husbands arm. Just because There was no broken skin does not mean there will not be. That will only escalate if nothing different is done. Conflict only escalates if nothing is done to resolve it.

Any line and any dog can demonstrate real aggression. It is important to seek a trainer that is flexible to the dog that is in front of them. You have a great trainer recommendation so close by and they all have something different to offer.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> I don't know your dogs, but I do know that if you have never had a dog growl at you, you can't put yourself in this position. You are throwing around ultimatums without ever having these experiences.


Sorry David, I always find that line of reasoning to be a bit of a copout.

"you've never been an NFL player, so you can't comment on a football play"
"you've never been a professional chef, so you have no opinion on what would make your meal better for you"
"you've never been a smoker, so you don't understand the addiction and shouldn't counsel someone to quit"
"you're not an architect so have no opinion on pleasing architecture"

I have never had a dog tear up my couch but I have an opinion on that too ....

I've never been beaten at work but know that I'd never put up with it, you don't have to have direct experience with something in order to know how you'd react and what you'd put up with. Respectfully, I think your training of military/police dogs sometimes blurs your line for what's acceptable for a pet dog in novice hands.

We've already established that it's not the dogs I have owned (or else it's blind luck genetically) since I have owned 6 GSD and countless other breeds in my family and yes never had one growl in earnest at me. I have had my share of strong willed dogs and puppy biting but never been bitten with intent either. 

That doesn't stop me from having a valid opinion as to what I'd accept personally or find acceptable with a dog that growls or snaps at me. 

It's all good, have a great day.


----------



## WNGD

Bearshandler said:


> When I say unfair handling by the husband it has nothing to do with moving the dog. It is something that happened long before these issues. This dog has received many poorly timed, poorly communicated, unnecessary, and flat out wrong corrections. That is what I’m referring to. Look at the post by @Sabis mom. She wasn’t calling them out for taking the dig off the bed. Mistakes like those can lead to a dig who doesn’t trust you and isn’t comfortable interacting with you. The suggestions of using stronger corrections I feel like are going to lead to someone getting bite. I have had dogs that would bite people, me included. The answer wasn’t always meet force with force. I believe the husband needs to build the trust up with this dog with more positive experiences, especially involving handling.


Got it, thanks for clarifying


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Sorry David, I always find that line of reasoning to be a bit of a copout.
> 
> "you've never been an NFL player, so you can't comment on a football play"
> "you've never been a professional chef, so you have no opinion on what would make your meal better for you"
> "you've never been a smoker, so you don't understand the addiction and shouldn't counsel someone to quit"
> "you're not an architect so have no opinion on pleasing architecture"
> 
> I have never had a dog tear up my couch but I have an opinion on that too ....
> 
> I've never been beaten at work but know that I'd never put up with it, you don't have to have direct experience with something in order to know how you'd react and what you'd put up with. Respectfully, I think your training of military/police dogs sometimes blurs your line for what's acceptable for a pet dog in novice hands.
> 
> We've already established that it's not the dogs I have owned (or else it's blind luck genetically) since I have owned 6 GSD and countless other breeds in my family and yes never had one growl in earnest at me. I have had my share of strong willed dogs and puppy biting but never been bitten with intent either.
> 
> That doesn't stop me from having a valid opinion as to what I'd accept personally or find acceptable with a dog that growls or snaps at me.
> 
> It's all good, have a great day.


Are we talking about a pet dog here? In general sense of the word? Would you consider these pet lines?

Your perspective is different than mine. I'll give you that. My perspective is different now than it was 10 years ago. 20 years ago, I returned a dog to the shelter because it growled at my brother.

My perspective changed because I was forced to either understand HA dogs or quit. Yes you can have an opinion on a football play. It will probably be wrong or terribly incomplete if you are dissecting it with an offensive lineman that played in the NFL.

I see you throw this out there all the time "*6 GSD over 40 years, none from what would be considered a top breeder, certainly different gene pools. " That statement is to substantiate your opinions. Your experience validates your opinion at least to some extent. If someone is a novice asking about puppy biting, you apply this statement to your advice to lend credence to this advice.

So my advice comes from my experience. I have trained a few more than 6 dogs and most were handler aggressive to some extent. Do you suggest that I don't try and help people understand the why of handler aggression and how to cope with these issues? I shot a video just to demonstrate how growling can mean different things depending on all those little signals that accompany the growl. I then broke down those signs and tried to explain why I didn't correct the resource guarding behavior. You didn't respond to that.

So I stand by my statement that your advice comes from your experience, and my advice comes from my experience. I mean absolutely no disrespect here. Have you fixed a HA dog or 50? I have. Have you had a dog give you stitches and then be just fine with your family later? I have. I am honestly just trying my best to educate people and help them out. The point of my statement above was to let you know that squashing growling using corrections can be a disaster for the wrong dog, and if you don't have experience with that type of dog, your advice could get someone injured and a dog put down.

I will happily avoid disagreeing with you from here on out. 

You have a great day yourself


----------



## David Winners

Here is what Lee, who has tons more experience than I do, has to say about the genetic makeup of this dog. 



wolfstraum said:


> To me - this dog is loaded to the gills with what I call "red flags" - serious aggression, screw you attitudes........a product of a bunch of commercial breeders selling puppies to anyone with cash who then set themselves up as breeders! I spent an evening sitting with the owner and breeder of a very very well known dog in this pedigee in 2nd (?) generation on one pedigree....He told me - and showed me - scars where the dog came at him - causing trips to hospital not once, but three times.....that dog's sire is line bred in the final pup, and is generally acknowledged to produce this kind of aggression in a percentage of his progeny and on down....and there are 3 other dogs also who are red flags....when you roll them all up in one dog if they shake out, you have a firecracker waiting to bang. I went back only 5 generations and was shaking my head in wonder that people do these breedings without considering what they are pairing.
> 
> Sorry - I am sure that this dog can be trained to be controllable - but this is not a pedigree that should be offered to any and all buyers as a companion dog.
> 
> Lee





wolfstraum said:


> The problem is that everyone gets all upset and hurt and rushes to defend the named dog.....too many do NOT UNDERSTAND the *concept* of "red flags" and genetics that are passed forward to some but not all descendants of said named dog....experienced people who train and trial and compete often have these dogs in their pedigrees - but they expect a different type of behavior, treat the dog differently and *IF* - *a BIG IF!!!! - *the dog does not express the genetics get very very very resentful of the negatives of their dog's grandfather (or whatever) being criticized..... Therefore, I do NOT publicly dissect any pedigree by naming dogs!
> 
> For ONE dog in the pedigree - his breeder/owner/handler told me about 3 visits to the hospital from the dog coming at him....the dog was still winning and scoring well in competition and many admired him....that is the difference in pet dogs and breeders who work dogs and whose goals are competition. And the Germans are much more open, realistic and honest about these types of things.....every one I have ever sat and talked to has given me the goods and bads of their own and other highly successful dogs they know in Europe.
> 
> 
> Lee


----------



## Jamie Lynn

WNGD said:


> Sorry David, I always find that line of reasoning to be a bit of a copout.
> 
> "you've never been an NFL player, so you can't comment on a football play"
> "you've never been a professional chef, so you have no opinion on what would make your meal better for you"
> "you've never been a smoker, so you don't understand the addiction and shouldn't counsel someone to quit"
> "you're not an architect so have no opinion on pleasing architecture"
> 
> I have never had a dog tear up my couch but I have an opinion on that too ....
> 
> I've never been beaten at work but know that I'd never put up with it, you don't have to have direct experience with something in order to know how you'd react and what you'd put up with. Respectfully, I think your training of military/police dogs sometimes blurs your line for what's acceptable for a pet dog in novice hands.
> 
> We've already established that it's not the dogs I have owned (or else it's blind luck genetically) since I have owned 6 GSD and countless other breeds in my family and yes never had one growl in earnest at me. I have had my share of strong willed dogs and puppy biting but never been bitten with intent either.
> 
> That doesn't stop me from having a valid opinion as to what I'd accept personally or find acceptable with a dog that growls or snaps at me.
> 
> It's all good, have a great day.


My dog is definitely not a "pet". Many of his ancestors were and are military/police dogs.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Are we talking about a pet dog here? In general sense of the word? Would you consider these pet lines?
> 
> Your perspective is different than mine. I'll give you that. My perspective is different now than it was 10 years ago. 20 years ago, I returned a dog to the shelter because it growled at my brother.
> 
> My perspective changed because I was forced to either understand HA dogs or quit. Yes you can have an opinion on a football play. It will probably be wrong or terribly incomplete if you are dissecting it with an offensive lineman that played in the NFL.
> 
> I see you throw this out there all the time "*6 GSD over 40 years, none from what would be considered a top breeder, certainly different gene pools. " That statement is to substantiate your opinions. Your experience validates your opinion at least to some extent. If someone is a novice asking about puppy biting, you apply this statement to your advice to lend credence to this advice.
> 
> So my advice comes from my experience. I have trained a few more than 6 dogs and most were handler aggressive to some extent. Do you suggest that I don't try and help people understand the why of handler aggression and how to cope with these issues? I shot a video just to demonstrate how growling can mean different things depending on all those little signals that accompany the growl. I then broke down those signs and tried to explain why I didn't correct the resource guarding behavior. You didn't respond to that.
> 
> So I stand by my statement that your advice comes from your experience, and my advice comes from my experience. I mean absolutely no disrespect here. Have you fixed a HA dog or 50? I have. Have you had a dog give you stitches and then be just fine with your family later? I have. I am honestly just trying my best to educate people and help them out. The point of my statement above was to let you know that squashing growling using corrections can be a disaster for the wrong dog, and if you don't have experience with that type of dog, your advice could get someone injured and a dog put down.
> 
> I will happily avoid disagreeing with you from here on out.
> 
> You have a great day yourself


OK I'm going to refrain offering opinions on growling dogs since I don't have any experience in that. But I'll continue to try and have a relationship and training that lessens the likelihood of having a dog that is either put in a position or feels the need to growl or bite at its owner (me).

Explaining that I have raised 6 GSD is in response to one poster who said that I had either been lucky with my dog or received good genetics. So the point is that's doubtful since my dogs have not been from top breeders and there have been multiple over decades. Or others that say there 8-12 week old puppy bites and attacks like no other. That why I constantly ask for video (never supplied) so I can confidently say "whoa, my dogs have never done that" or "pfffft, perfectly normal for GSD, I have corrected that many times". All any of us can do is offer from personal experience so, since I can't say what I did when my dog growled/bit me, all I can offer is the opinion that it shouldn't have been tolerated and allowed to be repeated/escalated the first time.

"I shot a video just to demonstrate how growling can mean different things depending on all those little signals that accompany the growl. I then broke down those signs and tried to explain why I didn't correct the resource guarding behavior. You didn't respond to that."

If that was the video where you showed Valor and your Dane on the bed with a ball(?) I did respond to that and you didn't reply. I didn't see any cause for correction there and it was normal effective dog communication in a known (at present) hiearchy.

I'm still a bit confused if you have ever/often raised a GSD from ~8 weeks that went on to bite you with intent/anger in what would be seen as a regular pet/puppy raising environment. ie not training to bite, Shutz etc because as I said before, my advice wouldn't be for re-homes, fosters etc who may arrive with other issues.

If I ever get the "wrong dog" I guess I'll see if my experience continues and opinion validated. And no worries David, you can disagree with my any time


----------



## Saphire

WNGD said:


> Sorry David, I always find that line of reasoning to be a bit of a copout.
> 
> "you've never been an NFL player, so you can't comment on a football play"
> "you've never been a professional chef, so you have no opinion on what would make your meal better for you"
> "you've never been a smoker, so you don't understand the addiction and shouldn't counsel someone to quit"
> "you're not an architect so have no opinion on pleasing architecture"
> 
> I have never had a dog tear up my couch but I have an opinion on that too ....
> 
> I've never been beaten at work but know that I'd never put up with it, you don't have to have direct experience with something in order to know how you'd react and what you'd put up with. Respectfully, I think your training of military/police dogs sometimes blurs your line for what's acceptable for a pet dog in novice hands.
> 
> We've already established that it's not the dogs I have owned (or else it's blind luck genetically) since I have owned 6 GSD and countless other breeds in my family and yes never had one growl in earnest at me. I have had my share of strong willed dogs and puppy biting but never been bitten with intent either.
> 
> That doesn't stop me from having a valid opinion as to what I'd accept personally or find acceptable with a dog that growls or snaps at me.
> 
> It's all good, have a great day.


As someone who has much training 20yrs as a Correctional Officer, I’d say once you are beaten at work, you’re never the same. It’s just not that black and white.
With your opinion of correcting a growl, if I gave you Gus for one week, you will be getting stitches. Correcting the growl is an unfair correction.

Growl....correct
Growl.....harder correction
Growl....huge correction
Guess what’s next, Gus is coming up the leash.

why are we correcting a dog who is communicating the only way they know how?


----------



## WNGD

Jamie Lynn said:


> My dog is definitely not a "pet". Many of his ancestors were and are military/police dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lorenzo Garcia Alvarez
> 
> 
> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lorenzo Garcia Alvarez
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com


Jamie, I'm simply using the term to reflect the fact that you are keeping him in your home and rightly expect that he will have certain civil manners among family members. I'm going to try and not comment on this thread further and leave you in more capable hands; I have no experience with my own dogs growling or biting at me beyond puppy age.


----------



## dogma13

Another perspective from a pet owner that has owned five GSDs plus other breeds over the years. Having been growled at and nipped a couple of times my first thought was always "what did I just do that made you afraid and what will be my plan to eliminate your fear?"I want to address the root cause by seeing it from the dogs perspective. My feeling is squashing the reaction is a bandaid over the issue that will never heal.It's not a true fix.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> OK I'm going to refrain offering opinions on growling dogs since I don't have any experience in that. But I'll continue to try and have a relationship and training that lessens the likelihood of having a dog that is either put in a position or feels the need to growl or bite at its owner (me).
> 
> Explaining that I have raised 6 GSD is in response to one poster who said that I had either been lucky with my dog or received good genetics. So the point is that's doubtful since my dogs have not been from top breeders and there have been multiple over decades. Or others that say there 8-12 week old puppy bites and attacks like no other. That why I constantly ask for video (never supplied) so I can confidently say "whoa, my dogs have never done that" or "pfffft, perfectly normal for GSD, I have corrected that many times". All any of us can do is offer from personal experience so, since I can't say what I did when my dog growled/bit me, all I can offer is the opinion that it shouldn't have been tolerated and allowed to be repeated/escalated the first time.
> 
> I'm still a bit confused if you have ever/often raised a GSD from ~8 weeks that went on to bite you with intent/anger in what would be seen as a regular pet/puppy raising environment. ie not training to bite, Shutz etc because as I said before, my advice wouldn't be for re-homes, fosters etc who may arrive with other issues.
> 
> If I ever get the "wrong dog" I guess I'll see if my experience continues and opinion validated. And no worries David, you can disagree with my any time


I think it is important to point out that having an opinion and even sharing that opinion is a good thing. I think it is also important to understand where that opinion comes from. 

Repeatedly discounting the opinion of others, such as Steve, Chip, Lee, BH, myself included, by stating as fact that this type of behavior can be 100% cured in a given way that goes against a bunch of experience with this type of dog is just obstinate. You haven't seen this behavior so it doesn't exist because you haven't handled a dog like this. Your way must work on all "serious, strong willed" dogs because that is what you believe you have owned.

I have trained a lot of GSD puppies. I haven't raised but 2 in my home for more than a few months. This conversation isn't about a puppy. It is about an adolescent dog that has a ped that leans strongly towards genetic handler aggression. Something that does exist whether you believe it or not. It is coming up on adulthood and this may seriously escalate if they don't sort out the relationship and learn how to handle this dog. And no, I have never had a dog that I raised come up the leash. Is that because of genetics? Or is it because I understand handler aggression and train my way around it in a manner that benefits both me and the dog?

I guess we will never know.


----------



## WNGD

Saphire said:


> why are we correcting a dog who is communicating the only way they know how?


Sorry, can't let this just hang there.

If you really believe that growling is the only way a dog can communicate, not only do I don't know what to tell you but then we must not only be raising different dogs, but different species. As per Dogma's point, I'd ask why I put my dog in a position where it feels it needs to communicate to that extreme when there are so many others available.

Trying to stay out again


----------



## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> *My dog is definitely not a "pet"*. Many of his ancestors were and are military/police dogs.


See when you make statements like this I have to wonder why this dog would end up with inexperienced owners. Clearly you and the breeder were aware this dog was to much dog for you. It seems unfair to all involved. You have a dog you are trying to get a handle on and the dog has owners who cannot at this time give him what he needs.
As to police and military dogs, that description in and of itself means nothing. I have seen many working police dogs who quite happily live with their handlers families, because they are clear-headed, stable dogs with appropriate aggression and discernment.

@WNGD I raised two dogs that turned on me, and another that did not but was euthanized for serious human aggression. I was able to avoid serious injury in the two attacks because both dogs were on leash at the time, but I still ended up with scars mostly from the one that didn't growl.
A friend of mine was not so lucky and only managed to escape by finally closing a door on the dog. He was euthanized by animal services while she underwent emergency surgery. She is scarred for life and has to deal with the trauma of a beloved dog trying to kill her. She ignored the growl and actually told him to knock it off. 
I live with a dog now that growls and has bitten me. She has a pretty weak bite but it still does damage. At least when she growls I know something is upsetting her or hurting her and I can try and correct the problem for her.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Repeatedly discounting the opinion of others, such as Steve, Chip, Lee, BH, myself included, by stating as fact that this type of behavior can be 100% cured in a given way that goes against a bunch of experience with this type of dog is just obstinate.


Wow.
I didn't see myself doing this whatsoever (I stated it could be 100% cured in a given way?) and am honestly surprised that's how it was received. Keep getting drawn back in, gotta take a break and go walk my dogs that can't communicate with me since they don't growl lol

But all kidding aside, I do appreciate and understand that I thought I was simply stating that I wouldn't have a dog growl at me the first time but also can be no help in correcting an ingrained or ongoing problem since I have no experience with growling/biting older dog.


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## David Winners

I'm not making it up. I am only posting these for perspective. Read what you wrote and see what conclusion you come up with. I see correct the dog until this stops.

I never said your dog's couldn't communicate with you.



WNGD said:


> Sorry, why would you ever feel bad for correcting a dog that's growling at it's owner for virtually anything? I pick up my dogs off the floor by the chest all the time from above and from the side; it's how we hug. I take their food away and give back regularly and anyone in my family can; it's my food until it's consumed, then u can keep it
> 
> I'm glad things have gotten so much better but the original problem started from not disciplining correctly (yes you should have corrected the first time he growled this time again too) and making excuses that reinforced undesired behaviors.





WNGD said:


> I think he just needs to remember every time not to manhandle/over handle the dog. The dog will have to respond to verbal commands every time. I already said that I wouldn't have tolerated the very first growl months ago or ever again. And get it off the bed.
> 
> The dog knows there are no serious consequences to thinly veiled aggression. A bite will be the next test imo.





WNGD said:


> I would treat a serious growl just like a snap at me. Yes, I want to understand why but no, it's not going to happen more than once. Guess what Rogan? I have the right and position to make you uncomfortable once in awhile. Suck it up


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> See when you make statements like this I have to wonder why this dog would end up with inexperienced owners. Clearly you and the breeder were aware this dog was to much dog for you. It seems unfair to all involved. You have a dog you are trying to get a handle on and the dog has owners who cannot at this time give him what he needs.
> As to police and military dogs, that description in and of itself means nothing. I have seen many working police dogs who quite happily live with their handlers families, because they are clear-headed, stable dogs with appropriate aggression and discernment.
> 
> @WNGD I raised two dogs that turned on me, and another that did not but was euthanized for serious human aggression. I was able to avoid serious injury in the two attacks because both dogs were on leash at the time, but I still ended up with scars mostly from the one that didn't growl.
> A friend of mine was not so lucky and only managed to escape by finally closing a door on the dog. He was euthanized by animal services while she underwent emergency surgery. She is scarred for life and has to deal with the trauma of a beloved dog trying to kill her. She ignored the growl and actually told him to knock it off.
> I live with a dog now that growls and has bitten me. She has a pretty weak bite but it still does damage. At least when she growls I know something is upsetting her or hurting her and I can try and correct the problem for her.


I have already adressed that I didn't know what I was getting into when I got the dog. I don't see the point of rehashing it, it is what it is. He's here and has been here for 2.5 years, we love him and he loves us. It just doesn't add to the solution. 

We could sit here and bash the breeder for selling him to me when I asked multiple times about possible aggression bc I didn't want that. But again, that isn't helpful either. That is my issue with some of your comments they are just condescending that don't add value. 

You can also bash my trainer and say that you don't believe he's been in schutzhund since it came here, but ask yourself what value does that bring to the conversation? 

He's in his late 60s and has been doing schutzhund since it came here. Yes he is praising my husband for doing some things right in the videos while he still may be having issues. Like i said my husband had zero dog training experience before this dog, so when the trainer is saying good, it is probably bc he is doing way better than before. 

Police/military dogs are bred differently than show lines that was my only point, of course these dogs still should have good tempermant and be stable dogs. A working line dog is not a pet, that is all I'm saying here.


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## Bearshandler

I see growling as a symptom of a larger


WNGD said:


> Wow.
> I didn't see myself doing this whatsoever (I stated it could be 100% cured in a given way?) and am honestly surprised that's how it was received. Keep getting drawn back in, gotta take a break and go walk my dogs that can't communicate with me since they don't growl lol
> 
> But all kidding aside, I do appreciate and understand that I thought I was simply stating that I wouldn't have a dog growl at me the first time but also can be no help in correcting an ingrained or ongoing problem since I have no experience with growling/biting older dog.


I think the big difference here is the perception of what the actual issue is. The growling isn’t the big issue here for anyone. What you see is a dog testing and stepping outside his boundaries, a dog looking to assert himself over people. You believe that you should shy him down now at the growling stage before he escalates to biting yo control his people. I see a dog that isn’t fully comfortable with the people(person) handling him. Typically I wouldn’t expect to see something like that with a dog raised from puppyhood. If you were to do things like give improper corrections that the dog doesn’t understand or abuse it on a regular basis, you could end up in a situation like this. It also takes a certain temperament in the dog. This is something I would never expect you to deal with since you already have an established method for raising and training your dogs. The people I typically see this happen to are not dog literate with small dogs. They answer force with more force and the dogs end up resorting to biting them. With dogs that size, there’s not a lot of danger to an adult. With an adult German shepherd, you understand where it could go.


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## Sabis mom

Jamie Lynn said:


> I have already adressed that I didn't know what I was getting into when I got the dog. I don't see the point of rehashing it, it is what it is. He's here and has been here for 2.5 years, we love him and he loves us. It just doesn't add to the solution.
> 
> We could sit here and bash the breeder for selling him to me when I asked multiple times about possible aggression bc I didn't want that. But again, that isn't helpful either. That is my issue with some of your comments they are just condescending that don't add value.
> 
> You can also bash my trainer and say that you don't believe he's been in schutzhund since it came here, but ask yourself what value does that bring to the conversation?
> 
> He's in his late 60s and has been doing schutzhund since it came here. Yes he is praising my husband for doing some things right in the videos while he still may be having issues. Like i said my husband had zero dog training experience before this dog, so when the trainer is saying good, it is probably bc he is doing way better than before.
> 
> Police/military dogs are bred differently than show lines that was my only point, of course these dogs still should have good tempermant and be stable dogs. A working line dog is not a pet, that is all I'm saying here.


I am beginning to think my communication skills are sucking. Not bashing your breeder, maybe your trainer a bit because it ticks me off that he is taking your money hand over fist. In 2 years this gentleman has not resolved what is really a straight forward issue. *The humans need to be trained to handle the dog they have and love*. The obedience foundation on the dog is there, so not really the issue.
The breeder maybe had a plan for this breeding-I hope-but perhaps failed to understand your skill level or goals. I can give the benefit of the doubt barring knowledge of the other side of the interaction.
My point was that these are the people who collectively got you to this point. Maybe find new people? 
David has experience with these issues. I'm not a trainer, just a crazy dog lady who likes dogs that get to me as a last stop before a needle.


----------



## Jamie Lynn

Sabis mom said:


> I am beginning to think my communication skills are sucking. Not bashing your breeder, maybe your trainer a bit because it ticks me off that he is taking your money hand over fist. In 2 years this gentleman has not resolved what is really a straight forward issue. *The humans need to be trained to handle the dog they have and love*. The obedience foundation on the dog is there, so not really the issue.
> The breeder maybe had a plan for this breeding-I hope-but perhaps failed to understand your skill level or goals. I can give the benefit of the doubt barring knowledge of the other side of the interaction.
> My point was that these are the people who collectively got you to this point. Maybe find new people?
> David has experience with these issues. I'm not a trainer, just a crazy dog lady who likes dogs that get to me as a last stop before a needle.


Well there is only one schutzhund trainer in all of Manhattan and he is kind of like family to us at this point. 
Someone on here commented about the difference between house manners and the training on the field. My has never shown any aggression during training and wouldn't. The other thing is that my trainer is a super old school schutzhund trainer, which would just involve hard corrections until the behavior was extinguished. However, like others have said that will take away a warning sign, which is something I want. He also doesn't see a working line dog as a pet so he'd never want to treat the dog as a pet at all. 
He is 6'5" and used to be Donald Trumps's personal security guard. I'm a 120 lb female. What works for him wouldn't work for me. He knows he will win a fight with a dog, and has years of physical experience dealing with aggressive dogs.


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## Sunsilver

Saphire said:


> Growl....correct
> Growl.....harder correction
> Growl....huge correction
> Guess what’s next, Gus is coming up the leash.


My older girl is a mix of American and German show lines. Even SHE would bite the trainer at my former Sch. club, if he gave her what she thought was too harsh a correction! 

I've never had a problem with her, but I know enough about dogs to say 'never say never'!


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## Galathiel

Thing is, your dog IS a pet. Doesn't matter how your trainer sees it. If he cannot gear his training to where you guys are, then that's a problem. Sorry ... regardless of lines, he is not a working dog. He doesn't patrol a beat, do SAR, is not a service animal . He lives in your home, not a kennel. He is a pet. I have a WL line dog ... he's my pet. He is trained to do some service tasks, but he is a pet.


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## Sunsilver

Galathiel and your point is?? It's the genetics that determine a dog's behaviour. If it has serious working line blood behind it, it is going to act like a working dog, not a 'pet' dog. The German shepherd was meant to be a working breed, you cannot expect it to act like a lap dog or a golden retriever, even it it is being kept just as a pet.


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## Steve Strom

Jamie Lynn said:


> I have already adressed that I didn't know what I was getting into when I got the dog. I don't see the point of rehashing it, it is what it is. He's here and has been here for 2.5 years, we love him and he loves us. It just doesn't add to the solution.
> 
> We could sit here and bash the breeder for selling him to me when I asked multiple times about possible aggression bc I didn't want that. But again, that isn't helpful either. That is my issue with some of your comments they are just condescending that don't add value.
> 
> You can also bash my trainer and say that you don't believe he's been in schutzhund since it came here, but ask yourself what value does that bring to the conversation?
> 
> He's in his late 60s and has been doing schutzhund since it came here. Yes he is praising my husband for doing some things right in the videos while he still may be having issues. Like i said my husband had zero dog training experience before this dog, so when the trainer is saying good, it is probably bc he is doing way better than before.
> 
> Police/military dogs are bred differently than show lines that was my only point, of course these dogs still should have good tempermant and be stable dogs. A working line dog is not a pet, that is all I'm saying here.


Hey Jamie, I think the problem with training him like that, is that you aren't living with him in a way that matches it. If it was me, I'd retire him from anything you've been doing as far as Schutzhund and work on calm indifference between you in your handling of him. Focus on structure and management. Consistent, predictable routine. It takes more then a month to change his perception of things.


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## LuvShepherds

What I notice the most here is that several people are talking about very different things regarding this dog, so there are bound to be disagreements and controversy. Again, I see this as very simply interacting with the dog the way he needs to be handled to live comfortably with this family in their own home. He has made it clear there are a few limited behaviors he growls at. He is fine most of the time, which reinforces that the only time he acts out is when the owners intentionally do things he can’t tolerate. More training, different training, better training isn’t going to change his comfort level. He began growling at family members over a year ago. They have defined for us what he does and when he does it. I think we are making this much too complicated. If a new situation comes up that causes him to growl, hopefully it won’t result in a bite, and they can manage it. I would not allow him to be around children or anyone unpredictable or he may escalate and bite them.


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## Galathiel

Sunsilver said:


> Galathiel and your point is?? It's the genetics that determine a dog's behaviour. If it has serious working line blood behind it, it is going to act like a working dog, not a 'pet' dog. The German shepherd was meant to be a working breed, you cannot expect it to act like a lap dog or a golden retriever, even it it is being kept just as a pet.


Edit: OP has mentioned a couple of times that the dog isn't a pet because of its lines. But that's the world it is trying to function in... fair or not. Why would I expect it to act like a golden retriever ? /head scratch. I have a working line dog ... that doesn't mean it doesn't live its life as a pet.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Jamie, I think the problem with training him like that, is that you aren't living with him in a way that matches it. If it was me, I'd retire him from anything you've been doing as far as Schutzhund and work on calm indifference between you in your handling of him. Focus on structure and management. Consistent, predictable routine. It takes more then a month to change his perception of things.


Thanks, once he did his first growling episode, I told my trainer I didn't want to do bite work or anything like that or the sleeve until we had this growling episode under control. So he's never been trained for biting on the sleeve or any of that part of schutzhund. At this point that part of schutzhund is a no go for me for obvious reasons. So we just do schutzhund obedience right now virtually with the dog trainer and I do agility with Lorenzo everyday at lunch time. We have him on a schedule now which I do think helps. He wakes up my husband takes him for a walk, I feed him, then at my lunch time I give him a 20 min training session of agility, schutzhund obedience and I throw the frisbee as his reward, then in the evening my husband does a training session, I give him dinner and then we take him for a walk or run later. 
He's still moody sometimes, but I just give him space during those times to get over it. Last night I didn't sleep in the same room as my husband and dog bc I was having trouble falling asleep and in the morning I could tell Lorenzo was pissed at me for it. He didn't growl or anything, he just wanted nothing to do with me when normally every morning he's super excited when we wake up. I just gave him space to get over "my transgression" and then he was fine. But it reminded me of when he was super pissed at me for swimming in the backyard without him.


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## Jamie Lynn

I'm back, but this time the issue is slightly different. We haven't had any issues with him between my husband or I. My mom has mild alzheimers and Parkinson's and Lorenzo has always loved my mom. But today she bent down from above over a fence and stared him down making kissing noises at him for like 45 seconds and he lunged and snarled. I grabbed him by the scruff of his neck hard and corrected him and he didn't redirect the aggression towards me.

Thankfully we are leaving Indiana Sunday to go back to ny and will be able to see my trainer in person.

My question is this...I know getting down in a dog's face a staring them down is asking for a fight in dog language and I told my mom this when she did it once before, but like I said she has beginning stage alzheimers. 

Would a dog with a stable temperament react in this situation aggresivley to an elderly person, whom he knows and likes. I do think if I got down in his face and did the same kissy stuff to him he'd lunge at me too, but I wouldn't do it bc I know that is asking for a fight in dog language.

This goes back to kind of what is a valid growl and what is not. I do think my husband trying to lift him after eating a meal is a valid growl. This situation with my mom I don't know bc she is obviously frail, and a child shouldn't get in a dog's face that way, but I don't think they should get growled at if they did. 

I'm just wondering if I can even have kids if I have this dog, not sure I want kids though tbh. You can teach a kid not to stare a dog down at certain age I suppose and certain things can be trained out, but snarling at an elderly woman idk. 

What would other hard working-line gsds do in you got down in their face and stared them down?


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## wolfy dog

I think you have had plenty of answers, yet you keep asking about the same behavior in just different scenarios. Why don't you get it?


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## Jamie Lynn

wolfy dog said:


> I think you have had plenty of answers, yet you keep asking about the same behavior in just different scenarios. Why don't you get it?


Because this is my first working line gsd. He also has handler aggresion in his genes, which I specifically said I didn't want when I talked to the breeder. You don't have to respond if you don't want to. 
Lots of people here have different opinions about the different scenarios and personally I like to get as much data as possible to help me make decisions. A person can never stop learning. Obviously this is not a multiple choice test where there is just one answer.


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## dogma13

The dog's response was valid to him.

He was feeling threatened/afraid.He had two choices - leave the area himself or warn your mom away.Maybe stop allowing him to be put in that position. Body block him or call him away.


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## WIBackpacker

You should move into a "management" mindset with this dog, effective right now. 

Yes, see your trainer, continue to seek out info, but you need to start managing this dog immediately. He shouldn't be put in a position where he can hurt elderly family members (or kids or anyone else). Once you have his training under control, you can re-evaluate.


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## Jamie Lynn

WIBackpacker said:


> You should move into a "management" mindset with this dog, effective right now.
> 
> Yes, see your trainer, continue to seek out info, but you need to start managing this dog immediately. He shouldn't be put in a position where he can hurt elderly family members (or kids or anyone else). Once you have his training under control, you can re-evaluate.


He's not around anyone but my family, no kids. His aggression previously had been limited to my husband and I didn't think he would be aggressive to my mom. 
The breeder made it seem like he should be able to determine threats and would never be aggressive to children ect. He obviously will not be around my mom again.


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## Steve Strom

Jamie Lynn said:


> He's not around anyone but my family, no kids. His aggression previously had been limited to my husband and I didn't think he would be aggressive to my mom.
> The breeder made it seem like he should be able to determine threats and would never be aggressive to children ect. He obviously will not be around my mom again.


Its just going to be more helpful for you Jamie, if you just expect that he will be aggressive and live with him in that way under every circumstance.


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## Jamie Lynn

I'm mainly just asking bc before I wasn't as concerned that I'd never be able to have children while I have this dog. But now that he has lunged at a defenseless person, it is like a completely different ballgame. Bc that in my mind is really a temperament thing and it's really depressing. So I'm trying to see if anyone else had a similar issue that was resolved.


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## Steve Strom

It always has been a temperament thing, and some dogs are not trustworthy with kids. Maybe thats not ideal, but thats what you get. Can you change some of that, to a point you can, but I wouldn't put all my faith in it.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> Its just going to be more helpful for you Jamie, if you just expect that he will be aggressive and live with him in that way under every circumstance.


Yeah, at this point I think I will have to live that way. It is just super depressing bc I talked to the breeder in depth and said I didn't want an aggressive dog and she said he wouldn't be. I now know that other dogs in his line have bit people and are even worse than my dog. 

I did so much socialization and early training with him and spent so much money on him bc I really wanted a good temperament.


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## dogma13

Many of us have had a similar issue, myself included. My Samson will growl and glare back at anyone that stares at him.I manage him.


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## Jamie Lynn

Steve Strom said:


> It always has been a temperament thing, and some dogs are not trustworthy with kids. Maybe thats not ideal, but thats what you get. Can you change some of that, to a point you can, but I wouldn't put all my faith in it.


Yeah I won't ever trust him again. Like going after me or my husband is one thing, but a defenseless person is totally different. I've had a dog that I had to keep away from everyone before. I didn't want that again, but that is my life again and I guess I will get used it.


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## Jamie Lynn

dogma13 said:


> Many of us have had a similar issue, myself included. My Samson will growl and glare back at anyone that stares at him.I manage him.


Thanks, that makes me feel less depressed about it


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## Thecowboysgirl

My dog has growled at people who lock eyes with him. He just doesn't get it. he doesn't understand what they are doing and he feels threatened. When dogs stare at each other like that it is a threat. I know ppl are generally just staring at him because he is a striking looking dog and they don't know better than to get into a staring match with a big dog. This never happens at dogs shows because those people tend to know better.

We dealt with it with a combination of my training him to break the stare if I said leave it, his deferring to my judgement if I told him it was fine, plus general engagement so he is just looking around looking at people less.


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## Sunsilver

One of my rescues would growl and snap at children and strangers who got in her face. We were never able to break her of the habit. We just kept her away from kids, and warned newcomers. She never hurt anyone seriously - worst was a red mark on the skin, and a few drops of blood.

Other than that she was a great dog. We knew no one would ever break into our house or car when she was on guard! She was very smart, but definitely had a mind of her own. For instance, when you called her when she was off leash, she'd often decide she had to have just ONE more pee. After doing that, she'd pretend she'd forgotten you'd called her...


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## WNGD

To answer your question, no it's not normal and no it's not OK for a dog to growl at someone they know for just looking or staring or making kissing noises from over the fence. That's not a stable dog.

But I've also said and others can disagree, a dog shouldn't growl or bite you for lifting it up or taking it off the bed or couch. Or taking it's food or a toy away or a host of other things that some seem to accept.

There are a host of other ways for a dog to communicate without growling or biting someone in its circle of care.


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## LuvShepherds

Your dog has proven he will be dangerous to anyone who gets near him in ways that make him uncomfortable. This is not a training issue nor is it the breeder’s fault. It is a mismatch between your family and this dog.


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## GSDchoice

Training and breeding aside, I think at this point you just have to look at the dog in front of you, in the present, and figure out how to best live with him.
Animals have their own natures, and while some dogs can be handled in all kinds of ways, others may not tolerate it.
I think that all animals should have their innate nature respected, and you need to work with each animal based on your knowledge of it.

I would expect to be growled at if I try to pick up my current dog from behind, or flip him onto his back. Previous dog (Great Dane) never growled in her entire life and always got called "sweet". Current dog,"sweet"?? 🤣 Well, it's totally ok to me, that each dog is different.

My dog used to growl if anybody touched his feet, but he will now allow me to stroke/handle his paws. He used to growl at people holding muzzles, but now will put his nose in the muzzle when I say "Nose" and stand there while I do up the buckle. I am ok with not being "top dog" and insisting that my dog submit always - I understand that there are situations that make him feel uncomfortable or threatened...I will work on these situations with him, feeling that I am his "Teacher", not his "Boss". 

No dog is perfect (and your dog may be a more "perfect" fit in a working situation than as a friendly pet?) - but he is who he is. It doesn't sound like you need to "keep him away from everyone" and I think that might make things worse!! Just enjoy your life together, but be more aware/careful with him, and let him communicate about things he doesn't like (since he doesn't speak, his form of communication will be to growl, stiffen, stalk away, etc).

Re worrying incident with mom - I would have got between them, glared at my dog and told him sternly to "back off" or "down" or go away. But would not have grabbed by scruff and administered correction...my feeling is that getting physical with your dog, encourages dog to get physical with you. After incident, I would let him spend friendly time hanging out with my mom (in calm supervised way) but not leave them alone together. Unfortunately I think you may have to reassess if you have kids.....but too soon to worry!! 

- opinion of a soft-hearted pet owner


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## herojig

"


robertelijah said:


> However they hate other animals, so you can say there is a big risk leaving Pitbulls with other animals, but you can easily leave them other people.


Well, that peeked my interest, cause I just saved a Golden Saint from a box, and I am wondering if this breed could also hate animals. It near killed a medium sized GSD I stupidly had roaming when I brought Bernie home. Right now Im trying to figure out training for this Cujo like beast, targeted at preventing him from killing every other 4-legger in sight. Surely this can be fixed, no?









Bernie, rescued from a metal hot box after original owner died of covid a year ago. Loves people, knows many commands, is good as any dog his size could be inside a house, but wants to kill anything with 4 legs, even stuffed toy ones. And the cat is just enjoying teasing him from the window which is adjacent to his run. Thank the heavens for the security grill!


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## Jamie Lynn

robertelijah said:


> Its true Pitbulls and GSD have large ppp bite and also they have a bad reputation, the reality is not the same, as far as I know Pitbulls are very loving dogs towards humans and especially kids, don't believe me? Read here. However they hate other animals, so you can say there is a big risk leaving Pitbulls with other animals, but you can easily leave them other people.


Take a look at dog bite statistics or talk to some ER doctors and you will find that the reality is they can be dangerous and should NEVER be left alone with children.
I don't know how many times I have read a news article about some idiot who says oh my dog was the sweetest thing until they bit their child. Then those owners typically blame the dog which is also obnoxious. But a dog a friendly nice dog can become aggressive. A dog can simply be ill or injured and become aggressive and a dog with a higher pound per pressure bite will obviously do much more serious damage than a yorkie or something.

It's why American Staffordshire Terriers get bad raps is because people do not have respect for the type of injury they could cause to a human and are just like oh he's the sweetest thing ever and they don't take precautions and then that dog bites someone.


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## dogma13

Pitbulls" and all topics and references to "pitbulls" is banned from this board. Violators will receive a warning and, if the warning is ignored, the member will receive a time out, and after that, a permanent ban. People who happen to own a breed deemed as a "pitbull" or cross can mention their dogs in stories that have nothing to do with the "breed" or type


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## Sunsilver

I have heard of St. Bernards having aggression problems. Was this dog ever a street dog? If so, it has likely learned to be aggressive with other dogs in order to survive. 

I think you are definitely going to need a prong collar to work with this dog, and keep it from dragging you off your feet. I would also work on making the dog focus on you when on leash. I've done this with two dog-aggressive dogs, and it worked really well to cure their reactivity.

Start with the dog inside, sitting in front of you, and use a cue like 'look at me', or just 'look'. When the dog obeys, reward with a 'good!' and treat.

Keep doing this for several days, eventually moving the dog so it's at your side, then get it to walk a few steps while still focusing on you before treating. (This is the exercise used to teach competition focused heeling, but it works great for dog reactive dogs, too.)

Once the dog has this behaviour down pat, move outside, and start adding distractions, first with dogs or people at a distance, then moving closer.

Wishing you the best of luck - this sound like it's going to be really tough, given how many street dogs are out there! And if the street dogs are attracted by the treats, this isn't going to work at all...


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## Whiteshepherds

Don't know if Jamie is still reading this thread but.....


Jamie Lynn said:


> The breeder made it seem like he should be able to determine threats and would never be aggressive to children ect.


It doesn't matter what he said. What matters is the dog standing in front of you.  You've already gotten a lot of advice from people better suited to handling/managing dogs with temperaments like your dog than me, but I thought I'd throw this out here....

Is there a reason no one mentioned buying this dog a muzzle (at least I didn't see it) and get him use to it for those times he'll be in situations you can't control (vets office as an example) and he can't tolerate? (your Mom?) I'm not suggesting the dog spend his day muzzled or that the training/managing stops but they do serve a purpose when needed.


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## Jamie Lynn

Whiteshepherds said:


> Don't know if Jamie is still reading this thread but.....
> 
> It doesn't matter what he said. What matters is the dog standing in front of you.  You've already gotten a lot of advice from people better suited to handling/managing dogs with temperaments like your dog than me, but I thought I'd throw this out here....
> 
> Is there a reason no one mentioned buying this dog a muzzle (at least I didn't see it) and get him use to it for those times he'll be in situations you can't control (vets office as an example) and he can't tolerate? (your Mom?) I'm not suggesting the dog spend his day muzzled or that the training/managing stops but they do serve a purpose when needed.


Thanks, I'm still here, he does wear a muzzle to the vet, he doesn't mind it too much


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## wolfstraum

LuvShepherds said:


> Your dog has proven he will be dangerous to anyone who gets near him in ways that make him uncomfortable. This is not a training issue nor is it the breeder’s fault. It is a mismatch between your family and this dog.


I disagree here. It most certainly is a breeders responsibility to understand and know what he is combining when he does a breeding. If there is an issue, it is his responsibility to at least IDENTIFY to the best of his ability where that issue originates. It is also his responsibility to explain what is in the pedigree - what likelihood, whether high risk or low risk - of negatives are associated with the pedigree.

But this hardly every happens!!!! You know why???????? Because the majority of people breeding either have NO CLUE about the dogs behind their breeding dogs, except whether they were in the WUSV, BSP, etc etc!!! They don't know that dog A was dangerous, and went to the podium muzzled and that the owner would not speak to anyone when he had the dog out and on leash....they don't know that certain males were handler aggressive, and that many, many sons of his also liked to display their defiance or frustration with their teeth. They don't know that a popular, Nationals winning dog used at stud sent his handler to the hospital/urgicare center three times, including a few days before said performance. But say anything publicly citing a name - and dozens of people are offended and quick to chime in their rebuttal about how wonderful their dog is who has the dog way back. They get mad, call this "rumor" - well now, no one puts this stuff in writing!!!! It is all antecdotal! When an SV judge shows me scars and laughs about his widely used, winning stud dog sending him to the hospital - and tells me the dogs sire was the same way???? I come by alot of info informally in conversation. I watch dogs, I see behaviors that follow that information. Which is why I breed only after studying a pedigree - no matter how much I love the dog I see in training or on the field....I won't use him, or will only use him carefully after alot of research if he carries a dog I have identified as a "red flags". Some scoff at this, some say pedigree does not matter. Some only breed by matching the dogs they see in front of them and know nothing about pedigree. 

Again - I always go back to race horses - people pay millions for horses by stallion who won $300K and only raced a few times - and Triple Crown winners Affirmed and Secretariat were "duds" at stud.

Lee


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## LuvShepherds

wolfstraum said:


> I disagree here. It most certainly is a breeders responsibility to understand and know what he is combining when he does a breeding. If there is an issue, it is his responsibility to at least IDENTIFY to the best of his ability where that issue originates. It is also his responsibility to explain what is in the pedigree - what likelihood, whether high risk or low risk - of negatives are associated with the pedigree.
> 
> But this hardly every happens!!!! You know why???????? Because the majority of people breeding either have NO CLUE about the dogs behind their breeding dogs, except whether they were in the WUSV, BSP, etc etc!!! They don't know that dog A was dangerous, and went to the podium muzzled and that the owner would not speak to anyone when he had the dog out and on leash....they don't know that certain males were handler aggressive, and that many, many sons of his also liked to display their defiance or frustration with their teeth. They don't know that a popular, Nationals winning dog used at stud sent his handler to the hospital/urgicare center three times, including a few days before said performance. But say anything publicly citing a name - and dozens of people are offended and quick to chime in their rebuttal about how wonderful their dog is who has the dog way back. They get mad, call this "rumor" - well now, no one puts this stuff in writing!!!! It is all antecdotal! When an SV judge shows me scars and laughs about his widely used, winning stud dog sending him to the hospital - and tells me the dogs sire was the same way???? I come by alot of info informally in conversation. I watch dogs, I see behaviors that follow that information. Which is why I breed only after studying a pedigree - no matter how much I love the dog I see in training or on the field....I won't use him, or will only use him carefully after alot of research if he carries a dog I have identified as a "red flags". Some scoff at this, some say pedigree does not matter. Some only breed by matching the dogs they see in front of them and know nothing about pedigree.
> 
> Again - I always go back to race horses - people pay millions for horses by stallion who won $300K and only raced a few times - and Triple Crown winners Affirmed and Secretariat were "duds" at stud.
> 
> Lee


I understand what you are saying but you took my post out of context. My point was that the OP’s family was not respecting the dog and was using poor handling techniques, grabbing the dog and teasing. It was not a new problem. Granted a well bred dog should not react that way but a dog can become reactive without consistent and proper handling.


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## LuvShepherds

wolfstraum said:


> I disagree here. It most certainly is a breeders responsibility to understand and know what he is combining when he does a breeding. If there is an issue, it is his responsibility to at least IDENTIFY to the best of his ability where that issue originates. It is also his responsibility to explain what is in the pedigree - what likelihood, whether high risk or low risk - of negatives are associated with the pedigree.
> 
> But this hardly every happens!!!! You know why???????? Because the majority of people breeding either have NO CLUE about the dogs behind their breeding dogs, except whether they were in the WUSV, BSP, etc etc!!! They don't know that dog A was dangerous, and went to the podium muzzled and that the owner would not speak to anyone when he had the dog out and on leash....they don't know that certain males were handler aggressive, and that many, many sons of his also liked to display their defiance or frustration with their teeth. They don't know that a popular, Nationals winning dog used at stud sent his handler to the hospital/urgicare center three times, including a few days before said performance. But say anything publicly citing a name - and dozens of people are offended and quick to chime in their rebuttal about how wonderful their dog is who has the dog way back. They get mad, call this "rumor" - well now, no one puts this stuff in writing!!!! It is all antecdotal! When an SV judge shows me scars and laughs about his widely used, winning stud dog sending him to the hospital - and tells me the dogs sire was the same way???? I come by alot of info informally in conversation. I watch dogs, I see behaviors that follow that information. Which is why I breed only after studying a pedigree - no matter how much I love the dog I see in training or on the field....I won't use him, or will only use him carefully after alot of research if he carries a dog I have identified as a "red flags". Some scoff at this, some say pedigree does not matter. Some only breed by matching the dogs they see in front of them and know nothing about pedigree.
> 
> Again - I always go back to race horses - people pay millions for horses by stallion who won $300K and only raced a few times - and Triple Crown winners Affirmed and Secretariat were "duds" at stud.
> 
> Lee


I changed my mind. You make a persuasive argument. I agree with you.


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