# Considering a GSD - Ontario breeders & other questions



## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

In 2-4 years, I plan to get a second dog, stilI debating the breed but starting breeder and breed research. 

My current dog is a wonderful 2 year old standard poodle. I do scent, rally, tricks, and hike with her offleash. When not in lockdown, I try to do one class/week. My dog is my hobby. 

Second dog will probably do similar, and try out sports to find sports it does well in. IGP, especially tracking, is something I am interested in, but realistically unlikely to pursue, as the closest club is too far away to want to drive there every week.

Top picks for a 2nd dog are a second standard poodle, a German Shepherd, a Tervuren, or another border collie. 

Researching German shepherds… I have many questions.

Working line? West German Show line? German? Czech? These are all words thrown around and I don't quite understand the differences, though I do lean usually towards working line. 

What titles should I look for on the parents?

With poodles, VGL/Betterbred genetic testing for diversity is starting to be a big thing, as is COI. Is this something that I should be looking for in German shepherds?

Things I am looking for in an ideal dog - most of these need training, but the right dog helps.

Ball motivated, likes to tug, food motivated. A dog who wants to work and play. 
Athletic, agile, and confident, lots of stamina, sound conformation, stable temperament
Polite and willing to greet strangers on command, but indifferent/neutral to strangers and other dogs
Good offleash, prefers to stay within sight
Reliable/confident in public, new situations, stores, public transit, etc. 
Good recovery from stress/frustration
Mostly calm in the house as an adult, though prepared to train an off switch. 
Very trainable, learns things fast
Demands daily exercise sessions/training, etc. But ok with the occasional slow day where we train instead of a huge amount of exercise. 
Near me, watching me, or touching me, doesn't need to be on top of me or constant petting. 
Eyes on me/owner focused. 
"How high do you want me to jump?" Kind of dog
The clever sort of puppy who gets into trouble by creatively climbing/jumping/digging/chewing/escaping in ways you wouldn't have considered possible.
Willingness to drill and do some repetitive work, long attention span
More protective than my standard poodle, with good judgement. Not a dog who runs behind me when uncertain, but willing to stand down if asked. Not aggressive. 
Likes swimming
Any Breeder recommendations in/near Ontario? I see Wendelin, Fraserglen, Narnia, and Von Tighe Haus pop up on this forum. Someone I train with has a dog from Carissima she loves, but he is a senior and she no longer trains with him, so I haven't met him. 

Other than the normal titling and OFA health testing stuff, I really appreciated that my current dog's breeder did a lot of socialization, exposure, and handling with the puppies and kept puppies until 10+ weeks. I ended up with an amazingly confident puppy. A GS breeder that does something similar would be great.

Also - if you think my list doesn't sound like a German Shepherd, I would like to hear that too!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think your list sounds very much like a working line GSD. It is pretty much a list of traits for my boy. He’s a versatile, confident athlete that’s also a great housemate. So I think you are on the right track. 

The only thing is “willing to greet strangers”, some GSDs are social but some are not. So this could be a thing you have to work on depending on the individual dog. 

I can’t really add my advice for Canadian breeders but I would look for titles in what you plan to pursue: IGP, nosework, trick and rally in the parents and/or the dogs the breeder has produced. I looked specifically for IGP because it is within the breeding guidelines of GSDs for them to be titled to IGP1. I also would want my breeder to be producing and placing some puppies into homes that title in my pursuits. 

Example: look at my breeder’s website www.wildhauskennels.com 
Look at not just the titles on breeding females but also look at ‘past litters’ and see what the grown up puppies are doing and their titles.
I would expect something like this from my breeder if I wanted to pursue hobby sport.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Also from the Wildhaus website (also my breeder), here is a good rundown on the GSD types. I agree that a working line would probably fit you best. Good luck!



(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

There are some articles on my website you might want to read:

Articles


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Wendelin!


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

LOL I would pick unlimited GSD vom tighe haus you have a lot of time Rather than just asking on the internet and reading peoples opinions go visit shows clubs and if possible breeders You might even find a breeder who never gets mentioned on the internet Have fun with your search


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## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I sent you a PM


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I have a Narnia pup.
She's WL and a lot like what you desribe. She's ball-motivated, likes to stay in sight, not cuddly but wants to see where you are and what you are doing, indifferent to folks and dogs at a distance but also curious, loves her people (that includes my neighbours).
She's great and perfect for my needs.
however, just a heads up, not all folks who have Narnia pups are happy with them. I hear there have been health issues and the dogs are described as "sharp", which means that they are easily spooked and a little on the anxious side and may not be the best for IGP. I did an eval once and was told she's too anxious, but then she had less socialization than now. She's smart and she's actually quite obedient.

Juno, 13 months now, has no health issues so far (not old enough for xrays etc, but came with a breeder guarantee) and is far more confident that my rescue (yes, I know he's neurotic). I'm actually quite happy with her.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> I hear there have been health issues and the dogs are described as "sharp", which means that they are easily spooked and a little on the anxious side and may not be the best for IGP.


Sharp does NOT mean easily spooked. In fact, it is the exact opposite.

*"One thing that I never thought of when I used the term sharp was spooking away." *- Armin Winkler

"Now to the term that we should be most interested in for our service dogs. The term used here is "Mannschärfe," which translates into man sharpness. The definition of this quality states the following. The quality in the dog that leads him to actively confront any apparent, feigned, or actual threat from a person in a hostile manner.
If I were to use terminology I have already discussed in this article I would say that sharpness could be equated to showing an active defense reaction to a real or perceived threat.

I did a fair bit of research and could not find anything written that stated that this quality has to come together with a low stimulation threshold for threat. So in fact how easily a dog is triggered does not seem to be a factor by definition. But to be fair, when I was growing up, the dogs we called sharp were the ones that would become very aggressive without much provocation. One thing that I never thought of when I used the term sharp was spooking away. In the old East German Koerung system, sharpness was rated from 0-5 with 5 being the most desirable. So when did sharpness become a bad thing? I don't know. I don't think it is a bad thing." - Armin Winkler

For the Op here are some useful terms that should be studied:

Schutzhund Village - part 1
Schutzhund Village - part 2


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

A sharp dog is one that is quicker to react, a dig with a shorter fuse. I call them hairpin trigger dogs. It doesn’t take much to get them going. There is a range of how sharp a dog is. How desirable it is is a personal preference and depends on what you want the dog for. Based on your description, I don’t think you want a overly sharp dog. The standard health testing to look for is certified hips and elbows and DM. I would recommend you go meet the dogs produced by these breeders and see which ones you like.


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## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

Thank you for the links! I am still in the compulsive breed research phase so those are really helpful. If anyone has any other favourite references, I would love to read them.

I researched poodles off and on for about 4 years before I was ready to own a dog. I do intend to look out at trials and classes (whenever they start up again) for dogs to meet, and probably try to visit a club, though the closest club seems to be only 3 German shepherds, the rest other breeds. Its helpful to know names to watch for. Also good to know questions to ask by the time my timeline is firm enough to start contacting breeders - and have the background to understand some of their answers.

For sharpness - nope, not looking for a sharp dog which is one of my concerns with working line German shepherds. I know and really like a couple of Mals (a pound dog and an import) and one of them is a much sharper dog than I would want.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have spent over 10 years researching breeders. It's a mess. Tread very cautiously and be wary of recommendation. As it should be, everyone thinks their dog is awesome. My perfect dog is not your perfect dog.
You will find GSDs much more biddable then Spoos, much less self serving. 
A pic of your current dog would be nice, we like dogs.


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## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

Dog photos? You may regret this.

Here is my girl - she is a challenge to photograph, usually either running and blurry or curled into a black ball of fluff so you can't find her face.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Go meet dogs and owners. Talk to them about life with their dogs. It's far better to get a first hand impression than read someone's opinion of their dog. Perspective means a lot.

You will quickly develop an attraction to a particular kind of dog. From there, you can talk about breeders.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Wendelin. Currently have a 6 month old and she’s the best. She is Czech lines. She is a take anywhere kind of dog. Not sure if she’d be competitive for IGP however so if you really want a crazy high drive dog possibly WGWL may be better for you.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi,

Based on what you're looking for, I'd definitely go with West German Working lines, not Czech.
Czech, depending on the pedigrees, can have more defense, less prey and not as much drive for top level competition.

With German Show lines, you won't have as much agility as with the working lines. Also usually, not as much drive for work as with the working lines.

Then, as everyone says, go see some dogs and meet some breeders. Not all West German Working lines are the same.

Hope it helps!


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## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

I finally met the only German Shepherd in my small town. He is 6 months old, already 2-3" taller than my 25" poodle and comes from a breeder breeding "giant" shepherds. 

Really pretty boy, very friendly, a nice family dog, reminded me of a show lab but without the food drive, but not at all what I am looking for in terms of drive/brains. Really wish I knew where the shepherds I used to know and like when I was in the city came from! 

Anyone know any good clubs in the Peterborough Belleville Kingston Bancroft Renfrew County Algonquin Park? I know there is one in Peterborough, any others?


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