# Long winded - but need help!!!



## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I recently rescued a 3yr old GSD. I don't know much about her past other than second hand hearsay from people via a GSD page on FB. Apparently she was chained to a fence and used for breeding purposes in Mexico. 

She had a litter of puppies 3-4 weeks ago. I was told that she refused to nurse the pups from the beginning and was becoming aggressive towards the pups and needed to be separated for the pups safety. It was apparent that she was in fact nursing the pups, as she was severely engorged after 6hrs in my care. She is now being treated for mastitis. 

All in all, she is a sweet little thing, but there are some issues I am having that I'm not sure how to work out. I plan on getting her some one on one training in the future, but have to wait for all her vet visits and shots. 

Her are her issues:

She is very leash aggressive. When she was brought to my house on a leash (with a pinch collar, which made me want to immediately punch the idiot owner in the face) she immediately barked, growled, snarled, and lunged at me. I walked slowly towards her sideways, no eye contact, no talking, and sat a little in front of her with my back turned. Asked the owner to drop the leash (we were in my fenced yard) and she came right to me and licked me and was happy as pie to be around me. 

I take her on twice daily walks, and while I've been able to correct all her minor walking issues (pulling, running, trying to run in circles around me and tripping me with the leash) she is still leash aggressive. She walks perfectly by my side now, waits at each street we have to cross without having to be told the "wait" command anymore. But, anytime a person, another dog, or goodness forbid, a cat is anywhere near her, she goes ballistic. She does the same growling, barking, snarling, lunging thing, and if its a cat, she does her damndest to get away and go after the poor thing. 

I do not know what to do to help this. I cannot distract with treat (will get into that in a bit), and when she is locked on, nothing will work. I DO cross the street or turn around when I see someone, but at night it is not always easy to see, and she spots them before I do. She has gotten better, she ignores everyone across the other side of the street now (she used to try to go after them even then) and I can walk her past other fenced dogs with little to no reaction from her. I give her a "leave it" command and continue to walk forward, sometimes almost dragging her, but I would like to eventually be able to comfortably walk her and take her to parks and whatnot, but that is not an option at this point! Any ideas besides treats as a distraction technique? 

When I got her, the poor thing was skin and bones, and had been given limited access to food. She would snap food right out of your hand (almost taking your hand with her) anything off the floor, and seems to have an odd obsession with toilet paper and paper towels. After a few days of regular feeding, she will leave food alone on the table, and while she will follow you with if you have food in your hands, she no longer snaps it away from you. So she is making great strides with that, but I cannot treat her! If I try, she takes half my hand with the treat. It's obvious she has not been given treats of any kind in the past. I give her treats in a kong, and she will nicely take that from my hand, but if it's a small treat, I have to toss it at her feet. I would like to be able to use treats as distractions while doing walks and training commands, but it's not possible at this point. It doesn't matter if I hold it flat handed, in between knuckles, or with my fingers, half my hand is in her mouth in an instant. 

Also, due to the engorgement, I am limited on what commands I can work with her on. I cannot do the "sit" or "lay" command because she is in pain when it comes to those. She has to sit very very slowly, same with laying. So for now I am working on "wait" for doors, food, and walks. "Come" when we are in the yard or house. 

She hadn't, up until yesterday, showed any signs of aggression inside my home. She will go ballistic in the back yard if anyone walks past, and on the leash in the front she will go ballistic if my neighbors come home or someone walks past, but hadn't made a peep inside. 

Yesterday a friend (who has been over before with her there) came over, and my dog was in her room eating. She heard someone come in the door and started barking, so I let her out. She came into the living room, saw my friend, crawl/walked up to her, sniffed her hand, walked away. Then she quickly turned back and starting barking at her with her head and body half lowered. I gave her the "leave it" command, and told her "room" and put her back in her room. I'm not sure what to do in this situation. I would leash her when guests come over, but with her leash aggression, that really isn't an option either, and I would like to be able to socialize her with people, so putting her in her room is defeating the purpose. 

I also cannot engage her in any type of play. No balls, chew toys (except a treat filled kong), tugs, nadda. She has no idea what they are. I would like to be able to play with her in the large yard in addition to the walks, but can't figure out how to engage her. I know toys aren't a must, and I'm okay having a dog that isn't a toy dog, but any ideas on what I can do with her in the yard for more stimulation than just the walks?

I know this has been long, so thank you if you've taken the time to read through, and any and all advice is welcomed and appreciated!


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

You are taking everything too fast!
No walks and no expectations for her for up to a month!
I am sure others will chime in, but slow things down. She barely knows or trusts you and you want her to be a model canine citizen. It may be she never WILL be a model canine citizen but worse, the adoption may fail if you expect too much too soon with her!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Research the 2 week shut down. That might be a help.

Check out TYler Muto on utube. Real good clips for leash pressure and place command. The prong itself isn't evil at all. It is just how you use it. All his techniques can be done without the prong too though.

'Cesar's way' is a good book imo for starters. Basic stuff but helpful.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

If I don't do walks, and she won't engage in play, how do I get her energy out? She gets massively hyper in the house starting about half an hour before her normal walk times. Jumping everywhere, running in circles, running from room to room and knocking the kids down with her hairy tail  

I'm really okay with slowing things down, I guess she just took so well to little corrections so quickly maybe I got ahead of myself. 

So I should just do nothing? Aside from loving her of course, and providing food, water, shelter?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What you are seeing is fear and stress.She simply cannot relax or focus much as she transitions to her new home,plus she is in constant pain.Relax and concentrate on her comfort and developing a relationship with her.This has to happen first before you can work on her issues.She needs to trust you and know you have her back.This could take weeks or months.Up until now she's known nothing but negative experiences with people.
It's awesome you rescued her!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

And I have done numerous rescues in the past, and I know they come with their issues and quirks, and I love them all the more for it. The adoption won't fall through, she is with me for the length of her life. 

I honestly think I just got caught up with how responsive and willing to work/learn she is. I don't mind if it takes her 5 months to learn to sit. I don't mind if she never takes treats properly or doesn't ever chase a ball. I really just want to assure that she isn't going to attack someone on a walk. I can curb the walks, I just don't know how else to expel her energy since she has no interest in playing or toys.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit. It sounds like you've already made leaps and bounds of progress with this little girl and you've only had her for a short period of time. I agree with slowing down on your expectations, especially since she's ill and in obvious pain. She's going to be awfully cranky anyway. 

I would encourage you to seek out a trainer that has experience with the GSD and sign up for some individual training sessions. They can assess her and help you work out all the kinks. 

It takes a kind heart to take on a dog like this, I wish you and her the best of luck!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

It sounds likes your doing a really great job so far!!! How long have you had her? A lot of this will just take a little time. Put her on a solid routine for feeding times and she will begin to understand that she gets food everyday at certain times so she doesn't need to freak when she sees it. Maybe once she realized this begin training with kibble that way she stays more calm than with high value treats and teach her to be gentle taking it. Also don't expect much from her until she is healed up, she is in pain which will definitely affect how she responds to people etc. Learning is hard, it's even harder if you can't sit withou pain. . Honestly it sounds like you are doing an amazing job and just go easy on her until you can get a professional trainer. A lot of this sounds like she just never got taught manners as a puppy, is in pain, and never knew when food would be coming! I bet she learns super quick once the last two of those are taken out off the picture


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Research the 2 week shut down. That might be a help.
> 
> Check out TYler Muto on utube. Real good clips for leash pressure and place command. The prong itself isn't evil at all. It is just how you use it. All his techniques can be done without the prong too though.
> 
> 'Cesar's way' is a good book imo for starters. Basic stuff but helpful.


I'm not against prong/pinch collars if used correctly, but the girl I got her from uses them in place of training dogs, alongside muzzles. She encourages aggressive behavior in her two other GDS, and laughs when they go after the neighbors kids through her fence. I'm against the way she uses them. The person (child really, she is 18) I got her from "rescued" her from the person who kept her chained. She was going to rehome her to me, then realized she was pregnant, so I was told they fell in love with her and decided to keep her. Once the momma had the pups, she messaged me saying she couldn't handle her and asked if I was still interested. 

When I got the momma, it was obvious that while she looks full GSD in pics, she isn't. So once this child realized she couldn't make money off breeding her, she just wanted her gone. 

It's that type of person that uses prong/pinch collars I am against.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I've had her less than a week, and yes, she is making fantastic improvements! It is very apparent she has had zero socialization with humans or animals, but inside my home she is a sweet little girl. She thinks she is a lap dog and is always trying to crawl into my lap and slobbering me with doggie kisses all the time. She is not all that responsive to my children, she can take them or leave them, but she WILL NOT leave my side. She whines at the bathroom door when I have to use the restroom. lol

She gets fed small meals every two hours by vet recommendation to help with the engorgement, and the bowl is never left down or full. I give her the portion, wait 15 minutes, and pull whatever isn't eaten. She does wonderfully with her food bowl after just one day, it's just the treats she goes berserk over still. 

I plan on getting a professional trainer involved, but my vet recommended I wait until the mastitis has cleared and she's had at least one series of shots first. We live in a very high Parvo area, and she has never been vaccinated. She has an appt next week to start on those, she was too scared and snippy when they were checking her teats, they wanted to wait another week until she was more comfortable for the rest of the testing/shots/worming.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Sounds like you have a great vet  considering the progress you two have already made it sounds like she will be easy to train once comfortable and healed up! 

Do you have a yard? Maybe try cutting into two tennis balls and letting her see you put treat in one right before throwing it and see if she chases it, then when she gets to it call her and show her your putting treats in the other one, then when she comes over drop a treat for her out of the ball and do it again. Maybe she will like it since she is so treat crazy and it will tire her out. Worth a shot lol. Or you could try a treat ball/puzzle that she has to play with get treats out of. Wick has one he has to roll around the floor a bunch to get them out.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

wick said:


> Sounds like you have a great vet  considering the progress you two have already made it sounds like she will be easy to train once comfortable and healed up!
> 
> Do you have a yard? Maybe try cutting into two tennis balls and letting her see you put treat in one right before throwing it and see if she chases it, then when she gets to it call her and show her your putting treats in the other one, then when she comes over drop a treat for her out of the ball and do it again. Maybe she will like it since she is so treat crazy and it will tire her out. Worth a shot lol. Or you could try a treat ball/puzzle that she has to play with get treats out of. Wick has one he has to roll around the floor a bunch to get them out.


I love my vet! She is retired, but still owns the office, just doesn't practice like she used to. She treated my other rescues before I moved out of state. When she heard I was back in AZ and had a rescue, she called me directly and came in to see us both personally. She has always been a godsend to me and my rescues! 

The tennis ball idea sounds like it could work, I will try that this evening! It's 110 here currently, too hot to work her during the day. 

And yes, my back yard is large. Not large enough for a full on run full steam ahead, but large enough to throw balls and have her running without it being a full on run.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> wick said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you have a great vet
> ...


Wow how awesome of her! You must be a worthy customer for her to care that much  I love that you rescue! Lucky dogs  Wick is a rescue too, puppy though. 

Ugh yeah that's hot!!! That's great you have a yard, I really hope it works for you two  it's been only getting to 85 here but with the humidity it gets too hot to go outside for longer than a short walk or a play in the pool. The treat toys you could try in the house  you could even just fill a plastic bottle with some and she could bat it around trying to get them out.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I did read the 2 week shut down, and it makes a lot of sense. 

I haven't had people coming and going, with the exception of my friend dropping off a few movies the other day, and picking them up yesterday, and was here for maybe 5 minutes each time. My dog wasn't forced to meet her, and my friend never tried to touch her or talk to her.

Unfortunately I have a very large family that was never taught proper etiquette. Doorbells or knocking? Why bother?!?! My brother just walked in and momma went nuts. Non stop barking, growling, but backing away. I explained to my brother that I had just gotten her, and couldn't be positive she wouldn't bite him, and to leave her be. 

He didn't stay long, but the barking/growling continued the entire time. And Lordy does she have a loud bark! I know she is showing fear, but when he walked towards me, her bark changed completely to protection. 

I know from experience GSD are natural protectors but I've never rescued an adult GSD. I've worked with other breeds as adult rescues that had been abused, but their natural reaction was to hide, not protect.

Should I room her if someone comes in and she is barking in fear and/or protection? 

Please understand that I am going to have her evaluated and work with a trainer to help correct issues as soon as her health issues are worked out. I'm just looking for a little advice on what to do in the meantime. 

Her room is about the size of a typical laundry room with access to the yard through a doggie door (which she hasn't used yet). It is empty aside from her bed, water dish, and food dish when it's feeding time. I also give her her kong in there. The only time the door is shut is if it's bedtime or the house is empty, the rest of the time she is free to come and go.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

And I just put a lovely little note on my door in big red letters saying "dog in training, please knock or ring door bell and wait, do not enter before being allowed, not responsible for any missing body parts if you ignore my request." 

Hopefully they aren't too unintelligent to read, or heed advice ?


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

For exercise, a flirt stick could be a good option for her.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> And I just put a lovely little note on my door in big red letters saying "dog in training, please knock or ring door bell and wait, do not enter before being allowed, not responsible for any missing body parts if you ignore my request."
> 
> Hopefully they aren't too unintelligent to read, or heed advice ?


Don't put your dog at risk by depending on people to pay attention! Essentially your "rehabbing" the dog!

First and foremost you don't know this dog yet?? Job one dog bites "no one!" Don't take chances "lock your door!"


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Don't put your dog at risk by depending on people to pay attention! Essentially your "rehabbing" the dog!
> 
> First and foremost you don't know this dog yet?? Job one dog bites "no one!" Don't take chances "lock your door!"


I have been locking it, but it's not a common practice for me, so the note is there just in case I forget. An extra little precaution.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I tried the tennis ball with a treat in it, and she just looked at me like I'm stupid. I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out a way to exercise this girl! No walks, and she is going stir crazy. She walks to the front door and whines, gives up, lays in front of it and whines, then goes on a crazy run around and around and around the house knocking everything down in her way. She knocked my table and a chair over. 

She won't play with toys, won't run along side me in the backyard without a leash (haven't tried with one yet), won't do any "find it" games, and was massively scared of the flirt stick, acted like I was going to beat her with it, which just broke my heart. I am so at a loss on what to do to get rid of the excess energy she has without her twice daily walks. 

And since she isn't being exercised, her newest fun game she made up herself if to sit in front of our huge front window and watch for people or animals walking by, and then going berserk trying to get to them through the window. The window is almost the size of the wall, so there is no blocking it. I tried heavy duty curtains, she ripped them down. Tried a couch, she tore into the couch. Tried wood and she pawed at it so much she made her pad bleed. 

I'm praying someone has an alternative to a walk, playing ball, "find it", the flirt stick, or any other game to burn this energy up, or I won't have a house soon!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> I tried the tennis ball with a treat in it, and she just looked at me like I'm stupid. I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out a way to exercise this girl! No walks, and she is going stir crazy. She walks to the front door and whines, gives up, lays in front of it and whines, then goes on a crazy run around and around and around the house knocking everything down in her way. She knocked my table and a chair over.
> 
> She won't play with toys, won't run along side me in the backyard without a leash (haven't tried with one yet), won't do any "find it" games, and was massively scared of the flirt stick, acted like I was going to beat her with it, which just broke my heart. I am so at a loss on what to do to get rid of the excess energy she has without her twice daily walks.
> 
> ...


Ugh this is terrible im sorry  You could just toss treats as far as you can into the yard lol or just start doing the walks again, or try running with her early in the mornings before people are out yet.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Have you tried a treat puzzle? I put big treats that can't really fall out of Wicks plastic ball with holes in it and he pushes it around the house for like an hour trying to get them out lol tires him out when it's too hot to go outside


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

wick said:


> Have you tried a treat puzzle? I put big treats that can't really fall out of Wicks plastic ball with holes in it and he pushes it around the house for like an hour trying to get them out lol tires him out when it's too hot to go outside


I have. If it's not an immediate reward, she just looks at it quizzically and walks away. Both a treat puzzle and kong are sitting on the floor with treats in them, because she couldn't get to the treat immediately. She will lick the **** out of the outside if it's peanut butter, but won't even try to get anything out that isn't on the surface. 

I'm going to have to go back to the walks this evening. There really isn't any other way of doing as far as I can see. I'll just leave my neighborhood and go somewhere less populated with her. That just concerns me a little because I'm a pretty small person, so anyone else may see it as a perfect opportunity for an attack. I don't live in a very nice city, and we have a large population of homeless and meth heads, normally both at the same time, that are often on the look out for an easy mark. Hopefully Lyka won't lose her protectiveness when I actually need it! lol

Her mastitis is gone, and the engorgement is gone, so there is some good news in this post! I think now that she is feeling much better, she is less happy just lying around all the time, so her hyperness is coming out much more now.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> wick said:
> 
> 
> > Have you tried a treat puzzle? I put big treats that can't really fall out of Wicks plastic ball with holes in it and he pushes it around the house for like an hour trying to get them out lol tires him out when it's too hot to go outside
> ...


Yay I'm glad she isn't in pain anymore! If it was me I would continue with the walks too but obviously I am not an expert or anything. Was there a ton of people in your neighborhood when you walked there ? We're you able to walk her fairly well without her seeming stressed out? Were you able to control her easily when she did lose it? It would be worse to bring here to a sketchy area IMO because then she might be given a real reason to be fearful as opposed to a bunch of fake ones that prove her wrong.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It is not "protectiveness."

It is fear aggression.

I suggest you read up all you can on that subject-- many threads on this forum about it. It isn't going to be easy. Fear aggression is very tough to handle as an owner. 

Also, read up on prongs. No need to want to punch someone in the face for using it. A dog's neck has some pretty impressive muscles. Used correctly, a prong can be a very useful training tool.
You are a small person walking a dog that is much stronger than you. A flat collar just isn't going to cut it if she decides to lunge, or bolt. You need to keep the dog under control, otherwise, no one is safe, not you, not others, not the dog.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

First of all (and generally) your dog shows all signs of long period of isolation and has (or never had an opportunity to observe) a very poor level of knowledge of human behaviour. Secondly - she was threatened many times and in different situations, may be not seriously, but she prepaires her agressive behaviour as her responce to anything "just in case". She has learned that she is feared.
Ignoring her bad behaviour and praising good behaviour will do the job, but it may take a long time. Do not pay any attention to her barking - by doing that you would simply support experience she should forget of. Then, in my experience, in such cased nuitrition adjusts the behaviour. The lack of certain nuitrients can make a dog more nervous or agressive than he naturally is. Feed her raw meat and bones, raw is easier to digest than cooked and it is rich in vitamins.
Prong is out of question - IMHO, I'm totally against. I wouldn't use collars in order to break old stereotypes. Use an EASY WALK HARNESS, muzzle and a long leash.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> It is not "protectiveness."
> 
> It is fear aggression.
> 
> ...


I'm aware that it is fear and not protection, which is why I put lol at the end of the sentence. It's so hard to convey a joking manner via the internet. 

I originally walked her with just a collar/leash, and once I realized she is reactive, I purchased a no pull harness that I use with a separate leash. I use the collar/leash, and a harness/leash combo. She was easily able to pull me with just the collar, but cannot with the combo. 

Her first few walks were sketchy at best, but she improved drastically in a short period of time. She leaves people alone on the opposite side of the street all together, and has small reactions to people on the same side of the street when in the beginning she would do her best to get to them. She will do a quick bark/growl, I'll tell her to leave it while maintaining my pace. She looks at me quickly, touches my leg, and keeps going. 

I feel like stopping the walks is going to cause some serious back sliding, but am okay with that if I could figure out a way to get her energy out via another means. 

Also, her pitch inside the home has completely changed. It went from the weaker fear barking with lots of backing away and hiding, to full on aggressive barking with no backing down. I posted a note on my door regarding entering unannounced, lock my door, and have told family to wait a few weeks before coming by. Unfortunately, I do have a busy lifestyle and jerks for siblings who think it's no big deal and that I am overreacting, so they still keep coming by, and I think putting her in her room while I let them in or step outside with them is causing it to become worse. 

I did try something new with her today in regards to visitors. Instead of putting her in her room and having her go berserk, I put her on her leash and had my niece wait out front with a bag of treats. I opened the door with Lyka behind me with the wait command, invited my niece in, and had her throw treats at Lyka's feet. She started out with the loud aggressive barking, and once she realized she was getting treats from her, she calmly sat and allowed my niece to enter and sit comfortably. Lyka laid by my feet for about 10 minutes, then walked over to my niece and licked her leg, and then came and laid back at my feet. I kept her leashed so I could react if she reacted negatively, but it was smooth sailing the whole way through. 

I know there are ways you should do things, and they have worked well for me in the past, but Lyka doesn't respond well to any of the normal "tricks and tips."


I think I will go with my gut with her, she has responded amazingly well to the little amount I've done. I haven't tried any formal training with her, she just picks up on commands and requests without me pushing anything. I haven't "officially" tried training her on anything, she just picks up on what I am saying/meaning. 

It could be a mistake, sure. But leaving her be isn't doing anything but driving her mad. She has become destructive with lack of exercise with just her excitement, and it seems like the longer I keep her inside, the more fearful she becomes of anything/anyone outside the home.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The 2 week shutdown isn't written in stone. Definitely adjust it to your needs. 
If the walks are good for her, then continue with them. Stay matter-of-fact, as stress travels down the leash. Think positive thoughts, project confidence. Talk to her in a calm, confident, upbeat voice, and try to get her attention and keep it on you when you see anyone approaching. 

I would chop up some boiled meat into tiny cubes and feed them to her on walks, before she starts getting riled up. See if you can get her in a sit and focus on you, and the smell of the meat, before she even starts looking at whoever is around.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

wick said:


> Yay I'm glad she isn't in pain anymore! If it was me I would continue with the walks too but obviously I am not an expert or anything. Was there a ton of people in your neighborhood when you walked there ? We're you able to walk her fairly well without her seeming stressed out? Were you able to control her easily when she did lose it? It would be worse to bring here to a sketchy area IMO because then she might be given a real reason to be fearful as opposed to a bunch of fake ones that prove her wrong.


There are always people out in out neighborhood. All the porches are in the front, so they sit out front in the evenings. She is easily controlled as long as it isn't a cat, and with a cat she basically has to be drug away. 

We have a lot of canal roads outside of neighborhoods, and if I go far enough out of town, it should be okay. Not many people out there, and too far out of town for the unsavory characters. 

I'll see how it goes, and if she does well, I'll continue to head out there, and after awhile (weeks), have a couple family members I actually trust come out and see if I can work with her on comfort levels on walks.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> The 2 week shutdown isn't written in stone. Definitely adjust it to your needs.
> If the walks are good for her, then continue with them. Stay matter-of-fact, as stress travels down the leash. Think positive thoughts, project confidence. Talk to her in a calm, confident, upbeat voice, and try to get her attention and keep it on you when you see anyone approaching.
> 
> I would chop up some boiled meat into tiny cubes and feed them to her on walks, before she starts getting riled up. See if you can get her in a sit and focus on you, and the smell of the meat, before she even starts looking at whoever is around.


I would love to do that, but while the engorgement is gone, she is still full and sits slowly, and still tries to take off your hand along with the treat  We are working on that, but slowly. 

I do stay calm on the walks, while still remaining assertive. I don't raise my voice or change pitch when people are near, and don't change my pace. She gets better and better with each walk. Except with cats, and I doubt seriously that will ever change.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

David Taggart said:


> First of all (and generally) your dog shows all signs of long period of isolation and has (or never had an opportunity to observe) a very poor level of knowledge of human behaviour. Secondly - she was threatened many times and in different situations, may be not seriously, but she prepaires her agressive behaviour as her responce to anything "just in case". She has learned that she is feared.
> Ignoring her bad behaviour and praising good behaviour will do the job, but it may take a long time. Do not pay any attention to her barking - by doing that you would simply support experience she should forget of. Then, in my experience, in such cased nuitrition adjusts the behaviour. The lack of certain nuitrients can make a dog more nervous or agressive than he naturally is. Feed her raw meat and bones, raw is easier to digest than cooked and it is rich in vitamins.
> Prong is out of question - IMHO, I'm totally against. I wouldn't use collars in order to break old stereotypes. Use an EASY WALK HARNESS, muzzle and a long leash.


She has been isolated for long periods of time, as well as starved, beaten, used for nothing other than breeding, and chained to a fence her whole life. 

I am amazed at the quick turn about with her with the conditions she was raised in. I expected a more difficult road than the one I've had with her. She still has a very long way to go, and I will never let my guard down with her, but I know she will be a loved member of the family even if she never fully settles in to the family, for as many years as she has left. 

I have been doing tons of research on the BARF diet, and have fed partial raw in the past with my Rottie, but am concerned with the little ones around in regards to raw meat. I know I would have to train them as much in regards to feeding Lyka the BARF diet, and at this point in time, it puts a little too much on my plate.

I am a single mom of 4, whom works full time. However, I am lucky enough to have a job that allows me to basically make my own hours and do a hefty portion of work from home.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

A few photos of Lyka. The second pic (I believe) is after one of her walks, all pooped out  And she LOVES to be brushed.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> I am a single mom of 4


You are a wonderful woman and a great person! God bless you in everything you do!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

It really sounds like you have a good gut to follow, don't fix what's not broke. Your training seemed to be going really well before, if she is responding positively to it then that's all thou could hope for. Great work choosing the treat route for your visitors







. The more practice she gets the better. Keep us updated!

She is beautiful by the way!! 

I was raised by a single mom of two  you are a super woman!!!!!!!!! You sound wonderful.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thank you Wick and David, I'm honestly blushing.

We are getting ready to load her up in the car for her walk, I'll update on how it went


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Prong is out of question - IMHO, I'm totally against. I wouldn't use collars in order to break old stereotypes. Use an EASY WALK HARNESS, muzzle and a long leash.


An "Easy Walk Harness???" Seriously?? 

I actually have something to add to the discussion at hand but I'm not going to let "this" go unchallenged... because it's crap!

First so what happened with you??? Sorry, but I was here when you first got here and I remember you saying a "harness" is designed for a dog to pull!!"!!??? 

Did the laws of physics change while I was not looking??? I would not trust a "harness trained dog myself" I don't belive a dog that has been tricked into behaving can be trusted! You "cant correct a dog using a harness!"

When my "flat leash and collar"trained dogs were charged by two dogs on a walk one day, I stepped in front of them turned around and told them to "Stay!" "Daddy's got this!" No sit, no down, just stay...that's what they did! "I" would not trust an "E Z walk" trained dog to behave in the same manner!

I used to use a Flat leash and collar. These days I train with a Slip lead Lead, I simply like it better! The results I can produce with that tool and it's proper use are so fast, it's uh pretty much to embarrassing to state! 

"Deer dog" is a prime example I took that dog from his owner. He was seconds before pulling in tow and he the pulling stopped!! The Deer part a little later had even me stunned!

Training a dog to walk properly on a leash is "not" about the tool! It's about the "user!" I don't use a "Prong Collar" myself but I can see and understand that...when used "properly" it's much like a Slip Leash, except easier to learn! That is why "Pro's" that know what they are doing...train there clients in the "proper" use of a "Prong Collar!"

Used properly it looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

I have produced the same results with a 'Slip Lead Leash" with dogs I have never since before and "I'm" not that special! He says it took 5 minuets ...I would be willing to bet that he is over stating, pretty sure the real numbers is way less then 3 minuets??

You "can't " correct a dog with a harness! But hey you know never?? These folks tried the "harness" thing... did not work out so well for them!:
Episode 211 - Holly?s Terror | Cesar911.com
Episode 212 - Nani Nightmare | Cesar911.com

Take note of the tool used on the dogs for rehab! With that I guess I'm done.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Just back from the walk, and it was so-so. Definite pulling and trying to get ahead in the beginning, but I think that was just her excitement at being out again. I didn't take all things into consideration when I decided where to go 

She has very high prey drive, and we were next to a field full of birds and fowl. She is completely afraid of water. Guess what is on the side of the canal road??Idiot moment for me for sure! First five minutes was not fun, but we got the hang of it after that. She left the birds alone, and while still cautious of the water, she did eventually relax and enjoy. 

Passed a jogger, and while she was alert and curious, and gave a warning bark, I was able to redirect her much easier this time. I even ran with her a little, and I'm pretty sure it's been about 10yrs since my lazy butt has done anything more than a fast walk. I think I may be more tired than her!!

So I learned as much, if not more, then she did this walk!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> An "Easy Walk Harness???" Seriously??
> 
> I actually have something to add to the discussion at hand but I'm not going to let "this" go unchallenged... because it's crap!
> 
> ...


I have rescued many different breeds, most from abusive situations. I am not comfortable in any way with using a pronged collar on any of my abused rescues. For multiple reasons. 

These dogs have been abused and have a heightened sense of awareness when it comes to anything that causes them discomfort or pain, especially around the head/neck area. It may control them while it is on, but it will hurt the relationship with handler/trainer in the long run, and the relationship off the leash is more important than being able to walk her for me (which is why I was asking for advice on ways to engage her and exercise her without walks). As a person that is NOT comfortable using one, I would never be comfortable if one was on my dog, which would easily be picked up on by the dog. So it would be doing a triple disservice to any animal being rehabilitated by ME. I'm not saying they are torture devices, or that they are evil, I'm merely saying they aren't for me. I do however, believe they are highly misused, which is where a lot of negativity comes from in general. 

I live in "little mexico." It's on American soil, but is literally nicknamed little Mexico. With that comes the "gangsta" mentality in a large number of youth, and sadly, an almost equal amount of adults. They use these collars to look tough, to make their Pitts and Rotties look vicious, they don't TRAIN their animals, they stick them in pronged collars and muzzles and smack the **** out of them when they don't listen. They encourage aggressive behavior in their dogs to make themselves seem tougher, and they raise them aggressive so they "protect" their yards from rival gangs and drug dealers. Half of the rescues I rehabbed before were seized from drug busts, dog fighting rings, or domestic abuse situations. My Rottie couldn't close his mouth because he was repeatedly beaten with a bat. He was the bait dog for training. His "owners" would beat him before throwing him into a cage with another dog so he couldn't do much fighting. His jaw had been broken so many times no amount of surgery could fix it. Guess what he was wearing when he was seized...a pronged collar. Same with the Pit I rescued, and the boxer, and the lab..I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. 

For people that start with a healthy animal, and have proper training with the use of a prong collar, more power to you, it just won't be me. 

As for the harness I am using, it's working out great, and I will continue to use it until I can control her without one. It's not a permanent solution to a problem, and is not training her, it's merely making it possible for me to keep her near me while I work through some issues with her. 

I can post plenty of scary links to dogs going berserk on prong collars and injuring their handlers or owners, but I've seen enough first hand that I can't and won't find the links for you. Just google it. For every link about harnesses and attacks, you can find just as many with pronged collars and attacks.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> Just back from the walk, and it was so-so. Definite pulling and trying to get ahead in the beginning, but I think that was just her excitement at being out again. I didn't take all things into consideration when I decided where to go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She will get you back in running shape in no time  wick sure kicked my butt back into gear! Glad it went relatively smoothly please keep us updated on progress. Is she seeming to feel way better now that the engorgement went down?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This game is great for teaching impulse control around food: 





There is also a Michael Ellis video showing how to position a treat in your hand.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> And she LOVES to be brushed.


What a great way to bond with her  Keep up the great work!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, you are an expert, then.

Your questions in your first post made it sound as if you were asking or advice, but I guess you don't need any.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sunflower, I am far from being an expert, and it's been about 8yrs since I've done a rescue. I am actually asking for advice, I do not know how to engage Lyka in any activities or find ways to exercise her without walking. She is the first dog I've rescued that shows zero interest in anything besides food. I'm not even claiming to be an expert in pronged collars, just sharing my negative experiences with them and why I don't use them personally. 


I have owned 2 GSD in the past, but both were raised as puppies, I've never had a rescue GSD. I truly am looking for help and advice, and have tried every bit of advice given. 

I really just want to do the best I possibly can with Lyka, and give her a happy relaxed life.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Wick,

She is feeling much better and is definitely letting her "dog" show through. She is much more alert and interested in what is going on around her, and is tail wagging so much I've had to move everything to higher ground


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> Wick,
> 
> She is feeling much better and is definitely letting her "dog" show through. She is much more alert and interested in what is going on around her, and is tail wagging so much I've had to move everything to higher ground


Awesome  this is good to hear (maybe not if you have potted plants).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> I have rescued many different breeds, most from abusive situations. I am not comfortable in any way with using a pronged collar on any of my abused rescues. For multiple reasons.


 First thank you for your work saving these dogs! My "rant" was not directed at you! Nor was I trying to convince you to use a "Prong!!"

I don't go after "newbie's" (well not anymore!:blush but David is on the record here as am I! He said what I quoted and I remember it! If his thinking has "evolved" then he should explain???

I'm on the record here also and you will find me "advocating" a Slip Lead Leash!

That aside...in honor of your hard work and dedication to saving dogs, I award to a newbie for the first time ever the houndie:










And Boxer guy also so yet again:









Thank you for saving me!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jschrest said:


> Sunflower, I am far from being an expert, and it's been about 8yrs since I've done a rescue. I am actually asking for advice, I do not know how to engage Lyka in any activities or find ways to exercise her without walking. She is the first dog I've rescued that shows zero interest in anything besides food. I'm not even claiming to be an expert in pronged collars, just sharing my negative experiences with them and why I don't use them personally.
> 
> 
> I have owned 2 GSD in the past, but both were raised as puppies, I've never had a rescue GSD. I truly am looking for help and advice, and have tried every bit of advice given.
> ...


OK, then what I would do is slow down. 

You just got her. 

GSDs are dogs whose respect and trust you need to earn. 

Have patience, walk her, and ignore her. Let her get accustomed to you and her new life. Don't expect, or do, too much too soon.

Give her a couple of months, at least, before expecting anything of her.
That is the advice I have.

Oh, and read The Other End of the Leash and other books by Patricia McConnell.
Her website is great, too.

Patricia McConnell PH.D. | McConnell Publishing Inc.

And Turid Rugaas.
Calming signals, photos - Turid Rugaas - International Dog Trainer


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> First thank you for your work saving these dogs! My "rant" was not directed at you! Nor was I trying to convince you to use a "Prong!!"
> 
> I don't go after "newbie's" (well not anymore!:blush but David is on the record here as am I! He said what I quoted and I remember it! If his thinking has "evolved" then he should explain???
> 
> ...


Thanks Chip! I misunderstood your reply for sure! I have been looking into the slip lead, and when I start taking her to a trainer I will definitely give it a go! I've yet to use one, but have seen some pretty amazing results with them, but I don't want to use something incorrectly and cause more issues, so that is something I will wait a bit on and work directly with a trainer so he/she can help train me in proper use!


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

So I learned as much said:


> That's great!! There is so much you both have to discover about each other. Lyka is a beautiful girl. She is lucky to have been rescued by someone so determined to make the rest of her life right.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> have seen some pretty amazing results with them,


Yes and in all modesty, I'm that good with one!:blush: 



jschrest said:


> but I don't want to use something incorrectly and cause more issues, so that is something I will wait a bit on and work directly with a trainer so he/she can help train me in proper use!


OK and there you go but...because you are having someone else help you, does not eliminate the need to understand what they are doing! 

Know your dog, watch your dog understand how they move! Slip lead leash is my thing! But that is not how I started!

Back in the day when "books" were the thing, I half read one on how to use a "prong collar! Got it wrong! Ten years of pulling on leash (Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) walked fine off leash but was a 'Bear" on leash!! 

At some point I "finally " figured I must be doing something wrong??? So I did a 180! Screw this I won't use "any" tool! Flat leash and collar! I learned to watch my dogs, understand how they move and what it took to control them..."leash pressure" slight tug left or right to correct, if they pull ahead you stop!! And wait for them to settle! It's pretty much as simple as that!

When I was first introduced to a Slip Lead Leash at Boxer rescue (hence the picture! ) I was given a Slip Lead Leash and told "...this dog pulls so be careful!" I thought to myself ". ..yeah I don't think so!" 

I take the leash dog starts to pull...I stop cold! I don't say "anything to the dog, he strains a little bit, then stops and then sits down!!! I wait a minuet and then we go! Dog figured it out real quit in less than 3 minutes...no problem walking this dog! 

End of the day I handed the dog over to his handler...and sure enough, off the dog goes pulling away, dragging his handler in tow!!!

It's not about the "tool" it's about the user! 

So at that point I was impressed with what "I" did with the Slip Lead! I did not need it but the results that can be produced with it's correct use are just so quick it's ridiculous! I have done it enough times to realize it's not a quirk! "Deer Dog" was my most astonishing result!! 

I know I said this on here but can't find it...so back to the source! 

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Training Management and Leadership!

As I said that result had me speechless! 

But in discussions I had with members online about a Slip Lead Leash. They had no problem with what I was "advocating" but they pointed out that if used "incorrectly" a Slip Lead leash can do damage and be used to administer a "very hard correction" to a dog!!

I had no idea??? Point being..."any tool" improperly used can be abused! 

But..."I" don't have a problem using it. So I figure I'll just find trainers that do! I have found only one?? All the trainers I link and respect, teach there clients the proper use of a "Prong Collar!" 

The principle are the same! Leash pressure, the dog self corrects! All the current examples of "this" everyone uses a "Prong Collar!" "I don't" but numbers are numbers! And you can't work rescue using "any" tools on their dogs, so you "need" to be skilled or it's a battle to walk dogs!

Again...it's not about the dog it's about you! I can guarantee you that if the trainer you will be using. Is competent and for "me" that means no clicker, no treats and no harness! He will have this dog walking well on a leash inside of 5 minutes! 

Sooo as you can see... I tend to make a lot of bold sweeping statements! 

And from questions I have been asked, I feel the need to "qualify" myself. I am not a pro! I'm just JQP (above average ) pet person! But I was pretty good working with real dogs (over ten years) and I always say, yes Boxers "are real" dogs!  BullMastiff/APBT/Lab, Boxer/APBT and Boxers! And I was very good! All were superbly well trained!

None of that meant "crap" when we "stumbled" onto Rocky, OS WL GSD the dog with the funny "pointy face!" After 7 months of no problems...I found myself with 116 lbs of "high Rank drive" (Pack fights) human aggression WL GSD on my hands!!??? 

Time to "run with the big dawgs" or stay on the porch as it were! So job one..."NOBODY" gets bit!!! I did "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog." It does go a bit far and some Pros have voiced objection to the rest of the essay but I only cared about the walk part! If I keep people "out of the dogs face" he can't bite anyone...it worked! 

Today he is safe in public and no "you can't pet my dog was my byline"! And "No" he does not meet and greet "I thought my dog was friendly folks!!" I did not need new problems to "fix, created by bad encounters!" That is how you let your dog know that you have there back! Rocky goes everywhere with me and by and large "off leash!" 

Walks are "extremely important!"...lesson learned!

In another of my broad sweeping statements...I will say that "if" I get a dog with an "undisclosed" bite history?? It makes 'NO" difference to me! Because a dog under my care will "not" be allowed to get a chance to "bite" anyone! 

"Any" dog under my care, how I roll can be found here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

You'll see the fundamentals of loose leash training! Only clip I have found of anyone doing that?? Concept behind a "Prong Collar" is the same!

Jeff Gellman "explains it!" Slip Leash or Prong it looks the same! I have more but I have stop at some point!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

The walk last night went amazing, more than I had hoped for. We walked past a few families that were out on the sidewalk, and with a small curve around them, she walked past with nary a bark or growl. She was on alert, but as soon as we walked past, she went back to relaxed. She spotted a cat about a block away and got very excited and jumpy, so I gave her the wait command and waited until she was calm and no longer alert. Took about 5 minutes, but we are getting there!

She has started to "herd" my little ones inside the house. And if they move too quickly she charges them. So it's back to being leashed while the girls are home and awake. I did have the 3yr old give Lyka her food last night, and my 5yr old give Lyka her food this morning, and that seemed to help a bit, but better safe than sorry in my book! 

We were able to engage her with a tennis ball with treats inside (Thanks Wick for the suggestion!!!!) but after a few minutes she got very very hyper and started nipping at me and my boys (15 and 17) so i told her no and put the tennis ball up. I think I'll hold off on the play until she has had some more training at a later time. She isn't doing angry or hard nips, just playful, but again, better safe than sorry! 

Thank you everyone for your kind words, your encouragement, and most of all, your advice! I know she will make a great turn around, and while she will never be a working dog, or an agility dog, she will make a perfect family pet with some time, care, and work


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> The walk last night went amazing, more than I had hoped for. We walked past a few families that were out on the sidewalk, and with a small curve around them, she walked past with nary a bark or growl. She was on alert, but as soon as we walked past, she went back to relaxed. She spotted a cat about a block away and got very excited and jumpy, so I gave her the wait command and waited until she was calm and no longer alert. Took about 5 minutes, but we are getting there!
> 
> She has started to "herd" my little ones inside the house. And if they move too quickly she charges them. So it's back to being leashed while the girls are home and awake. I did have the 3yr old give Lyka her food last night, and my 5yr old give Lyka her food this morning, and that seemed to help a bit, but better safe than sorry in my book!
> 
> ...


Haha and with fun comes trouble  youve opened a can of worms with the ball!! This is so great, she must feel really comfortable with you to open up like that . Great work on the walk! She sounds like a natural lover. 

Rose


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Just wanted a brag moment. Tonight's walk went AMAZING. We walked past families, a roller blader, and 2 cats with no reaction!!!!! It was a flawless walk . We even had a Golden rush at us and jump his fence, and I kept Lyka close and shouted "go" very firmly at the Golden and he jumped back into his yard. Lyka did get a little skittish when the dog came charging up, but went right back to our walk with barely breaking stride. I'm over the moon, out hard work is starting to show great results, and I couldn't be happier with out progress!!!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Yay! Congrats on the progress! Lyka is lucky to have you. She REALLY traded up from her last home!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Woo! Congrats!!  So happy you have her! Keep sharing!! I look for your threads now.. not in a creepy way, LOL  I just love your story.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

wyoung2153 said:


> Woo! Congrats!!  So happy you have her! Keep sharing!! I look for your threads now.. not in a creepy way, LOL  I just love your story.


Thanks WYoung! I always feel like I'm bugging the heck out of people. lol.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Yay! Congrats on the progress! Lyka is lucky to have you. She REALLY traded up from her last home!


Thanks! I'm hoping things just get better and better with her. I'm sure they will, she's an amazingly bright dog, just hasn't been given a chance or worked with in the past. I can't believe people never saw the potential in her, just saw her fear aggression and wrote her off. So sad. 

My son told me last night she is the favorite of all our dogs, with the exception of our last GSD. That speaks volumes to me on what a great girl she is, my son isn't typically one for praise


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Great news!!! Glad to hear all your hard efforts are paying off. Lyka just needed and chance and lucky for her you were the person to give her one.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've been watching your thread too,cheering you on and sympathizing.Just have to say what a great job you've done with Lyka and the babies.Fantastic


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