# Color genetics



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I think I understand this, but somebody PLEASE set me straight if I'm wrong.
Lucy is a sable, and both her parents are as well. In her litter there was at least one black and tan, which tells me that her parents are heterozygous for sable, because if even one was homozygous the only possibility would be sable. If one parent's other gene was for black and tan, and the other parent's other gene was for black, Lucy could either be genetically sable/sable, sable/black and tan, or sable/black. 
So even though there have not been any black puppies from Lucy's parents, that doesn't tell me anything because it would never express itself with these two dogs, right? 
It's enough to make your head spin a little.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I may be wrong, but if both parents were heterozygous for Sable/Black-tan, wich should be to have a black-tan pup, then there is no Black gen, as the genes have to come in pairs, then Lucy couldn't be sable/black. 

That would be if Sable, black and tan and black use the same locus, wich I'm not completely sure. I know it happens with the sable and the black and tan, but I'm not as much sure about solid black and bicolor. I know for sure white does NOT use the same locus.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI may be wrong, but if both parents were heterozygous for Sable/Black-tan, wich should be to have a black-tan pup, then there is no Black gen, as the genes have to come in pairs, then Lucy couldn't be sable/black.


But you can have a black and tan that also carries the gene for solid black. So the black and tan pup could have gotten a black and tan gene from one parent and a solid black gene from the other couldn't it? My black female has a solid black sire and a black and tan dam. So she ovbiously had to have gotten a solid black gene from EACH parent. Otherwise she would have been black and tan.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

What colors are Lucys grandparents?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> But you can have a black and tan that also carries the gene for solid black. So the black and tan pup could have gotten a black and tan gene from one parent and a solid black gene from the other couldn't it? My black female has a solid black sire and a black and tan dam. So she ovbiously had to have gotten a solid black gene from EACH parent. Otherwise she would have been black and tan.


Interesting!!

Then we could say the genetic hierarchy would be, at least for this genes, sable - black and tan - black? all in the same locus? 

I love to learn of genetics and this study cases are more fun than plain theory.

(BTW, I had a groenandel belgian/GSD mix that is all black, along with all her littermates, but I don't know if genetics play the same game in other breeds)


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDWhat colors are Lucys grandparents?


Lucy's grandparents are all sable, but there are a few black dogs on her sire's side a few generations back. Interestingly I don't see any black and tans.
I guess the only for sure thing if I breed her is I won't get white!
Lucy's pedigree 
I just finished getting her in the database- I had to register both her parents as well. I'm usually not that tech savvy


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

That sounds right to me. 

If even one of her parents was homozygous Sable, all the pups would be sable. So if there was a black and tan pup, at least one parent must be carrying black and tan, but you are right. The other parent could be carrying bi color or black. A pup that had the genotype black and tan/black would show as the phenotype black and tan. So yes, you've pretty well mapped out the possibilities for her color inheritance. 

And I believe the color inheritance/dominance is sable, black and tan, bi color, and then black.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

I have a black/red female that parents is black/tan and solid black, I bred her to my black/tan male that both parents is black/tans (but within 3 gens there is one black) and out of a litter of 9 pups I have black/reds, black/tans and one solid black pup


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

If you look back in the pedigree of her granddam: Hanni vom Guzzi-Stall, there are several black and tans. There are other black and tans farther back in her pedigree back thru other dogs also.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDIf you look back in the pedigree of her granddam: Hanni vom Guzzi-Stall, there are several black and tans. There are other black and tans farther back in her pedigree back thru other dogs also.


I see a few, now that you mention it. 
Somebody tell me- what's the difference between a bicolor and a black and tan?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Here's a couple old threads that have some bicolor conversation 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post561784

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=475280&page=0&fpart=1


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

My pup I think has tar heels, (Course she IS a Tarheel!) and she has black markings on her toes....
Does this tell me anything at all about her phenotype?
I'm looking for someone to tell me she probably has the black gene.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I meant genotype. Sorry.
I already know her phenotype


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have had 3 litters from Basha to use as examples:

1. Zender Lusondai - black and tan male to Basha - sable, carries black as her sire is black

Sable pups, black and tan pups, and black pups 

therefore, Zender carries black and black and tan

2. ****** Mohnwiese - Sable to Basha 

Sable pups, black pups - both sable parents carry black recessive

3. Enno Fuchsstein - sable - both parents sable! to Basha - who we know carries black recessive

Sable pups, and one black and tan bi-color pup - so Enno does NOT carry black, but does carry black and tan

Now the next litter is from Onnegardens Griff, who produced a litter with black, sable and black and tan to a black and tan female, whose sire was sable - so logically - the sable has to be from Griff, the black and tan from mom, and the black has to br recessive from both.

AND I will get sables and blacks in this litter.

Lee


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

I have heard that to get sables both parents has to carry sable gene, I had a black/tan bred to a sable and the whole litter of 10 pups was sable but both parents carried black/tan the sire hasl bi color


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mkennelsI have heard that to get sables both parents has to carry sable gene, I had a black/tan bred to a sable and the whole litter of 10 pups was sable but both parents carried black/tan the sire hasl bi color


No, sable trumps all else, is my understanding. Any dog that carries the sable gene, even one, is sable.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Lucina
> No, sable trumps all else, is my understanding. Any dog that carries the sable gene, even one, is sable.


Correct. 

Order of dominance in GSDs is Sable ~ Black/Tan ~ Bi-color ~ Solid Black

The dog will always BE the most dominant color gene he has. So if he carries sable, he will BE sable, because it is dominant over all the other colors.

Genetically, a Sable dog can be homozygous sable, or can carry any of the other color genes as well. A Black/Tan dog can be homozygous Black/Tan, or can also carry Bi or Black. A Bi-color can be homozygous Bi, or can carry Black. A Black is always homozygous Black, because if it carried the gene for any other color it would BE that other color, because all the other colors are dominant over Black.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Grey in horses is like that. My mare is gorgeous grey, but she is heterozygous for it because her daddy is a red roan. So any foal out of her has a 50% chance of being grey no matter who I breed her to.....
except another grey-then the chances go up to 75% if daddy is heterozygous and 100% if he's homozygous.
She's already has a lovely grey filly- interesting note on greys in case you didn't know because when I met her and her filly I didn't know and almost embarrassed myself. The people at the ranch were commenting on the lovely grey filly of hers and I thought- those poor people, they can't see! This is a brown horse! Grey horses are not born grey but grey with age very rapidly and get lighter as they age. They have telltale grey hairs around their eyes and muzzle at birth- that's how you know they are grey.
Luckily I kept my mouth shut and looked it up when I got home.


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

My understanding of homozygous is that a dog will produce only that color. Example is that Murphy vom Schwarzhorn, my former stud male was homozygous sable and no matter who he was bred to, all puppies were sable. I don't see that as the case with blacks as it is a recessive gene. I would think that two blacks would produce only blacks, but a black isn't necessarily homozygous as they do produce other colors.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

A black has to be homozygous as it is a double recessive trait.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: spartshepMy understanding of homozygous is that a dog will produce only that color.


Homozygous and heterozygous don't refer to what colors the dog can produce, but rather what color genes the dog possesses himself (which by extension of course determine what he can produce).
Homozygous means BOTH of the dog's 2 color genes are for the same color. 
Heterozygous means the dog has 2 different color genes.

So a dog who's genes are: Sable/Sable, Black/Black, B&T/B&T are all homozygous. Both of their color genes are for the same color.
A dog who's genes are: Sable/B&T, Sable/Black, B&T/Black are heterozygous. Their 2 color genes are for different colors.



> Originally Posted By: spartshepExample is that Murphy vom Schwarzhorn, my former stud male was homozygous sable and no matter who he was bred to, all puppies were sable.


This is because he was homozygous for sable, which is the most dominant color. So the only gene he could contribute to a puppy was sable. And with sable being dominant over all the other colors, no matter what colors the dam contributed to the mix, the pups would always be sable.

Had he been homozygous for a color other than sable, other colored pups could have been produced IF the dam carried color genes more dominant to his color gene. So for example, if he were homozygous Black & Tan, the only color HE could contribute to the pups would be Black & Tan, but if the bitch carried a more dominant gene (sable) there would be sable puppies.



> Originally Posted By: spartshepI don't see that as the case with blacks as it is a recessive gene. I would think that two blacks would produce only blacks, but a black isn't necessarily homozygous as they do produce other colors.


Blacks are ALWAYS homozygous for black. Because black is the most recessive of the colors, if they carried a gene for any other color (sable, B&T, Bi) the dog would BE that other color, not black.

Two blacks can only produce blacks, because if they are both black than both carry only color genes for black.

Blacks bred to other colored dogs can produce other colors, because every other color is dominant over black. So while the black parent is homozygous black and thus can only contribute a black gene to the pups, the non-black parent obviously has and can contribute non-black genes, which are dominant to black, and therefore will make the pups a non-black color.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Two blacks can only produce blacks- there's no other available gene or the parents would not be black. Homozygous sable (even one parent) will only produce sable because the sable gene will be in every pup from that parent, and if the gene's there you have a sweet sable pup.

Edit-Chris you said it way better


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Chris for that explanation...I appreciate that. I find genetics to be very interesting, though I am no expert in that area.


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