# So sad - GA woman killed by one of her dogs



## Neo93

DeKalb woman killed in home by pet dog | www.wsbtv.com


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## Zeeva

How sad :c...

Has anyone ever felt threatened by their dogs?

I was afraid of Smokey when I first rescued him. I used to keep a 2X4 nearby just in case. But boy was that the inexperience in me...


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## msvette2u

Wow.
From what I know, that combo can be pretty dangerous; Presas killed a woman in Cali a few years ago.

No. I've never felt threatened by any of my dogs. Fosters either. I would not own a dog I didn't feel safe with.

But this gal probably didn't feel unsafe, either. That said, I do not have experience with, nor do I desire, to own another breed, such as the type mastiff involved here.


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## JakodaCD OA

how sad They probably got into a fight and she tried to stop it..THo I am not a bsl person, presa's are one breed of dog I would not own


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## msvette2u

This is, sadly enough, how BSL gets started


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## Nikitta

Honestly? I had to google about the Presa breed. Just from the information there, I'd never own one either. Scary dog. Sad that that poor girl had to die like that.


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## Zeeva

Nikitta said:


> Honestly? I had to google about the Presa breed


I googled it too!


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## Neo93

Dekalb County just overturned a pit bull ban, so now I wonder if pit bull opponents will use this to try to get the ban reinstated.


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## Jo Ellen

I'm not in favor of BSL, but if there was a presa living anywhere near me, I would be in a fit. It would be gone or I would move.

Not truly terrified of many dogs, but this is one. I remember the California story very well.


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## Nigel

Zeeva said:


> How sad :c...
> 
> Has anyone ever felt threatened by their dogs?
> 
> I was afraid of Smokey when I first rescued him. I used to keep a 2X4 nearby just in case. But boy was that the inexperience in me...


There are a lot of unknowns when it comes to rescues. It can take a while to build trust between owner and dog. No harm in taking precautions, as this story unfortunately shows.

What's the deal with presas? I've never heard of them.


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## Neo93

I only knew about Presa's because my daughter watches Dogs 101 LOL and It's Me or the Dog LOL.


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## Jo Ellen

Presas are very strong and dominant, massive head and a large jaw. They require a lot of early socialization and obedience, and tend to be suspicious of strangers.

A rescue presa? Whoa, that's a gamble.


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## KatsMuse

O, how sad 
I would not own one either.


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## Gharrissc

I've met a few Presas and they were great dogs,but I've also seen ones that weren't so great. Personally they are a little too much dog,even for me and I love my big dogs.


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## PatchonGSD

JakodaCD OA said:


> how sad They probably got into a fight and she tried to stop it..THo I am not a bsl person, presa's are one breed of dog I would not own


Thats exactly what I was thinking...she probably tried to grab or separate them and they turned on her.....


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## Copper

I'm surprised that so many of you are saying things like "I would never own those dogs" and "if i lived by a dog like that i would move" etc. You all say you do not support BSL, yet your comments sound exactly like BSL. I'm disappointed in the people who posted before me. First of all, you don't even know for sure if it was the Presa that did it. Secondly, this was a RARE thing to happen and unless 1% of all Presas were guaranteed and documented to have killed their owners, I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned. You did not know the situation that prompted the killing, so please don't act like the Presa is to blame. From what I got out of reading this entire thread was negativity towards Presas, and then backing that up with "even though I don't support BSL...."


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## Jo Ellen

Actually, a well-bred and properly raised presa would probably be a good, reliable dog in the proper environment. They're just so massive and powerful, and protective...it seems unsafe to have this type of dog in a highly populated area. I might even argue that this type of dog should require a special permit to own ... they are not an ordinary dog, and they should not be owned by ordinary people. 

I better go grocery shopping now before I get myself into trouble here  

What is the difference, really, between owning a presa and owning a GSD?
That's not a rheutorical question, I'm sincere ... how are they different?


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## Nigel

Jo Ellen said:


> Presas are very strong and dominant, massive head and a large jaw. They require a lot of early socialization and obedience, and tend to be suspicious of strangers.
> 
> A rescue presa? Whoa, that's a gamble.


Thanks, they kinda look like a cross between a mastiff and a pit.


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## Jo Ellen

Nigel said:


> Thanks, they kinda look like a cross between a mastiff and a pit.


I think they are from the mastiff family.


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## llombardo

I have a hard time believing that they couldn't figure out which dog did it or at the very least which breed. I have to read the story again, but I thought I read that originally they thought that she fell and hit her head? Is it possible that this happened and she wasn't dead, but the dog and/or dogs thought so and were trying to move her or shake her to wake her up? The story was really vague on details. I had a mobility dog once and when I laid down and didn't move, the first thing he did was paw my chest really hard, I didn't go any further, because that hurt. I admire the beauty and strength of a presa and I wouldn't have a problem with owning one. They need lots of training and socialization, like any bigger dog. I would be hesitant to live near any dog mentioned if the owners were idiots and didn't do anything with them and got them just because they are powerful dogs.


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## llombardo

Jo Ellen said:


> Actually, a well-bred and properly raised presa would probably be a good, reliable dog in the proper environment. They're just so massive and powerful, and protective...it seems unsafe to have this type of dog in a highly populated area. I might even argue that this type of dog should require a special permit to own ... they are not an ordinary dog, and they should not be owned by ordinary people.
> 
> I better go grocery shopping now before I get myself into trouble here
> 
> What is the difference, really, between owning a presa and owning a GSD?
> That's not a rheutorical question, I'm sincere ... how are they different?


Really I don't see the difference between lots of breeds. They all require exercise, training, and socialization. Your going to have the good and bad in any breed, big or small. I have seen some poodles that were scary


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## Gharrissc

Well I can't speak for everyone else,but what I was saying is that the Presa more dog than I would like to have. Like I said I've met some great Presas and Pits,but I would not own a Presa personally. Saying that to me is no different than someone saying that they wouldn't own x breed.It's a personal choice. 

My neighbor has a Cane Corso and a Pitbull/lab mix who are both therapy dogs. I 'talk dogs' with her all of the time. I wouldn't move if someone had a certain breed.




Copper said:


> I'm surprised that so many of you are saying things like "I would never own those dogs" and "if i lived by a dog like that i would move" etc. You all say you do not support BSL, yet your comments sound exactly like BSL. I'm disappointed in the people who posted before me. First of all, you don't even know for sure if it was the Presa that did it. Secondly, this was a RARE thing to happen and unless 1% of all Presas were guaranteed and documented to have killed their owners, I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned. You did not know the situation that prompted the killing, so please don't act like the Presa is to blame. From what I got out of reading this entire thread was negativity towards Presas, and then backing that up with "even though I don't support BSL...."


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## Liesje

llombardo said:


> I have to read the story again, but I thought I read that originally they thought that she fell and hit her head? Is it possible that this happened and she wasn't dead, but the dog and/or dogs thought so and were trying to move her or shake her to wake her up?


I'm sure it was clear on autopsy


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## KatsMuse

Copper said:


> I'm surprised that so many of you are saying things like "I would never own those dogs" and "if i lived by a dog like that i would move" etc. You all say you do not support BSL, yet your comments sound exactly like BSL. I'm disappointed in the people who posted before me. First of all, you don't even know for sure if it was the Presa that did it. Secondly, this was a RARE thing to happen and unless 1% of all Presas were guaranteed and documented to have killed their owners, I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned. You did not know the situation that prompted the killing, so please don't act like the Presa is to blame. From what I got out of reading this entire thread was negativity towards Presas, and then backing that up with "even though I don't support BSL...."


Hi! 
I just stated that the situation was sad...nothing about Presas being the cause of this incident. 
I also stated that I just personally wouldn't own one. Not because I think they 
are ' bad dogs'...they just aren't the breed I like best. Just like you...you like GSDs best...That's all.


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## llombardo

Liesje said:


> I'm sure it was clear on autopsy


There was a story a few years ago about a Rott that killed a baby..teeth marks and all. It was determined that the dog killed the baby and the dog was put down. Not even two weeks after the initial determination, they found that the step father shook the baby to death and then had the Rott carrying the baby around....causing the teeth marks. So I'm not to sure about autopsies. I'll never forget how happy that dog was when they had it on the news. It didn't growl or show any aggressive behavior(even with a full camera crew).


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## Nikitta

Copper said:


> I'm surprised that so many of you are saying things like "I would never own those dogs" and "if i lived by a dog like that i would move" etc. You all say you do not support BSL, yet your comments sound exactly like BSL. I'm disappointed in the people who posted before me. First of all, you don't even know for sure if it was the Presa that did it. Secondly, this was a RARE thing to happen and unless 1% of all Presas were guaranteed and documented to have killed their owners, I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned. You did not know the situation that prompted the killing, so please don't act like the Presa is to blame. From what I got out of reading this entire thread was negativity towards Presas, and then backing that up with "even though I don't support BSL...."


From what I googled it was said that a presa needs a very strong dominant owner etc. It sounds like a scary dog. I didn't say a word about banning them. I just said I would never own one. We are allowed personal choice in the breeds we would be willing to own as well as our personal opinions without you attacking us.


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## Beau

This should help clear up some of your questions.....

From FOX5 Atlanta

DEKALB COUNTY, Ga. -
Authorities in DeKalb County say a woman was mauled to death by her dogs on Sunday.

DeKalb police say 23-year-old Rebecca Carey was discovered in a home on Midway Road after they learned she did not show up for work. They say her employer called a family member who then went to check on her.

Police said Carey kept five dogs in her home – two Presa Canarios, two American terrier mixes and a boxer mix. At some point, one or more of the dogs attacked Carey. Her official cause of death was sharp lacerations to her neck and upper torso.

The five dogs involved in the attack were taken in by DeKalb's Animal Control and later euthanized, according to police.

Sgt. Kim Medlin of the DeKalb County Animal Control said it was the first fatal dog attack case he'd seen. 

Friends and family said that the woman had devoted her life to rescuing dogs. Neighbors said they were stunned to hear of her death.

"They never show any type of aggression. Even if one got loose, you could tell them to go back to their yard, they would go back," said Monica Cofer.

Carey worked at the Loving Hands animal clinic in Alpharetta. Carey's boss said that she had been rescuing dogs since she was 13 years old.


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## Gharrissc

So a baby and a dog both lost their lives because of this guy? I'm sure he is getting what he deserves in prison.





llombardo said:


> There was a story a few years ago about a Rott that killed a baby..teeth marks and all. It was determined that the dog killed the baby and the dog was put down. Not even two weeks after the initial determination, they found that the step father shook the baby to death and then had the Rott carrying the baby around....causing the teeth marks. So I'm not to sure about autopsies. I'll never forget how happy that dog was when they had it on the news. It didn't growl or show any aggressive behavior(even with a full camera crew).


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## msvette2u

The differences between a herding breed (GSD) and a Mastiff/working breed are vast and numerous. If you look up what GSDs are bred to do, and a Presa/working dog/Mastiff, you'll see why it takes a special owner to own a Mastiff of any sort.


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## Neo93

One of the presa's was not hers - she was dog sitting for a friend. 

The original supposition was that she fell and hit her head, but apparently autopsy found no evidence of that. I would think they could have at least excluded a dog based on bite pattern - a presa and a pitbull should have different bite marks, but I guess they could not say with certainty.


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## llombardo

Gharrissc said:


> So a baby and a dog both lost their lives because of this guy? I'm sure he is getting what he deserves in prison.


When I seen the dog on the news I called to see if anything could be done, of course there wasn't. Imagine my "shock" when the real story came out. I knew that that dog I seen on TV was not responsible for the baby's death I wish I could find the story. If I do, I will post it on here.


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## selzer

Why not believe that a young woman with five substantial dogs, dogs that are or have been bred at some point as fighting dogs, might get in trouble. The Presa is a fighting dog. I would not own one either. They are too much dog for me, and I am not that young, nor small, nor inexperienced with formidable dogs. 

I have gotten bit breaking up fights twice. I cannot imagine having five of these dogs loose, running together, one of them being a visiting dog, no way. I know I am blaming the victim here. I feel for her, and her family, but it isn't sense to take on a crowd of these dogs and let them run together. You have to be a certain personality. And, I am sorry, but when dogs will fight each other, it is so dangerous, they will turn and bite anything in their path, misplaced aggression. 

I think her big heart/concern for the critters killed her. I might let two of mine run together, but I don't let a group go all at the same time. No, I am not worried that any of them will hurt me, but I am not so sure they might not hurt each other.


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## msvette2u

> but it isn't sense to take on a crowd of these dogs and let them run together.


Oh there's a whole bunch of people who insist these are not aggressive dogs, and the pit bulls aren't - to humans. But they also say "never trust one not to fight".
I'm glad I'm not the only one appalled at having 5 large powerful dogs together in an apartment.
Dogo Canario Club of America -- Temperament
Not one Presa, but two...plus two more dogs known for ring fighting. 

Sad all around.


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## Gharrissc

Agreed. Everyone can't or shouldn't own powerful dogs. The more powerful the breed,the higher the responsibility IMO. I don't want that much horsepower in a dog.



selzer said:


> Why not believe that a young woman with five substantial dogs, dogs that are or have been bred at some point as fighting dogs, might get in trouble. The Presa is a fighting dog. I would not own one either. They are too much dog for me, and I am not that young, nor small, nor inexperienced with formidable dogs.
> 
> it isn't sense to take on a crowd of these dogs and let them run together. You have to be a certain personality. And, I am sorry, but when dogs will fight each other, it is so dangerous, they will turn and bite anything in their path, misplaced aggression.
> 
> I think her big heart/concern for the critters killed her. I might let two of mine run together, but I don't let a group go all at the same time. No, I am not worried that any of them will hurt me, but I am not so sure they might not hurt each other.


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## msvette2u

It's so prevalent, though, people will get dogs like this and totally ignore the powerful fighting side of them, or the possibility they could ever fight w/each other.
I've heard dozens of times "it's ALL in how you raise them!"


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## Gharrissc

So msvette I guess you won't be opening up your home to foster any Presas right? I had to add a little humor here. 




msvette2u said:


> Oh there's a whole bunch of people who insist these are not aggressive dogs, and the pit bulls aren't - to humans. But they also say "never trust one not to fight".
> I'm glad I'm not the only one appalled at having 5 large powerful dogs together in an apartment.
> Dogo Canario Club of America -- Temperament
> Not one Presa, but two...plus two more dogs known for ring fighting.
> 
> Sad all around.


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## selzer

If someone had a couple of pitties and a presa, do you think I would have her pet sit one of my GSDs? That's just crazy. And I have heard that boxers will go into a fight with their stub tail wagging. These are all dogs that can/will fight. A LOT of bites happen when people are separating dogs. And if they cannot tell which dogs were involved and which were not, well, then, 3 or 4 of them were not safely tucked into their kennels. 

Such a tragedy for her family. 

I don't know how rescuers do it, but my guess is they keep a foreign dog separate until they can incorporate it into the pack. Was she really pet sitting for another formidable dog? And all together like that? Is that normal?


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## msvette2u

Gharrissc said:


> So msvette I guess you won't be opening up your home to foster any Presas right? I had to add a little humor here.


LOL I might put one in our dog run overnight until the Presa folks could pick him up


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## Shaina

When I pet sit for my good friend, I have my shepherd and lab, and she has two shepherds and a lab, and the occasionally foster dog. I let them roam together freely without problem, but I know the dogs temperaments and have monitored groups of 15 dogs together at a daycare facility I worked at, so am versed on how to break up fights.

That being said - I would never attempt to have a pack of bully breeds. Just not worth the risk, they're too strong with too quick of a switch.


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## Gharrissc

I think there a lot of people out there who try to prove that their dog won't be the 'bad one'. And yes there are a lot of powerful dog breeds who are owned by responsible,but unfortunately there are way more who have too much dog for them or they just want a dog who is already a powerhouse more vicious.


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## Gharrissc

This woman's best friend apparently wanted the dogs that she 'knew to be gentle' saved because she knew that they didn't do it. My question is how does she know that for sure when she wasn't there? 

I've seen otherwise gentle dogs pack up and become a part of a fight,even if they didn't start it.


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## Twyla

I saw this on the news this evening as well. DH and I both had the same question; how did they know which dog? But then without getting to graphic.... after the woman was dead, did the dogs fight over the body.... ?

I've never met a Presa, didn't know much about them, other then the usual very protective and aggressive. After doing some research, I would have a problem with a Presa moving into the neighborhood unless the owners were on top of it and the dog was ultra securely contained. I've have/had the GSD, bully breeds etc, transported Mastiffs cross country, but I don't think any of them compare to the Presa.

_Temperament

Presa Canario's require a very dominant owner and is not recommended for first time dog owners. The Presa Canario can be highly dangerous if placed with the wrong owner. However, with the right owner this breed is capable of being a loyal and devoted companion. They make excellent guard dogs as they are protective by nature of their family and territory and will not hesitate to attack anyone or anything it perceives as a threat. This breed is not suitable for homes with children or other pets._

_Training

Intense early socialization and obedience training is an absolute must. Presa Canario owners must be fair, consistent, assertive, and set firm limitations. Mutual respect is crucial.

Activity

The Presa Canario breed is not recommended for apartment dwelling. They do best with a securely fenced yard or rural home. They are very athletic and enjoy daily exercise. The Presa must be securely leashed and muzzled when in public._

Presa Canario in action - YouTube


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> The differences between a herding breed (GSD) and a Mastiff/working breed are vast and numerous. If you look up what GSDs are bred to do, and a Presa/working dog/Mastiff, you'll see why it takes a special owner to own a Mastiff of any sort.


Yeah, guess what, there is a company in Watertown that is involved into so many different things it's unbelievable and now on top of that they opened a kennel, selling protection dogs. Guess what kind of breed they are selling as protection dogs... PRESAS!!!!


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## Jo Ellen

_



The Presa must be securely leashed and muzzled when in public.

Click to expand...

_Well that says a lot. Definitely not your typical neighborhood canine. But I say that about the shiba inu across the street too


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## bocron

2 Presas in a house with 2 pits and a boxer mix? Not anything I would ever remotely consider. We've worked with Presas in the past and I must say, if I never see another I won't really care. 
We had a client who was adamant about doing pit rescue, and while I admired her for her desire to help I couldn't help but question her sense. She was forever going on about what sweeties they are, blah blah blah, but other than the one she had, she'd never owned any other pit or any other dog for that matter. I tried to tell her that she had to respect what the dog could do and never forget it for a minute (as you would with any breed). She did eventually get injured pretty severely trying to break up a fight between 2 of her fosters. The fighting breeds are just not ones to be taken for granted. Their jaws are crazy strong and they are not kidding if they get going. A good friend of mine (who was also a veterinarian) used to breed Am Staffs and said that when they decided to bite and hold on, you could sit on their back and eat lunch for all the notice they paid to outside input once they got going. 
I'm so sad for that young woman's family and hate to think how terrified she must have been.


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## Jo Ellen

bocron said:


> I'm so sad for that young woman's family and hate to think how terrified she must have been.


And how emotionally betrayed she might have felt in her final moments.


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## Mrs.K

Zeeva said:


> How sad :c...
> 
> Has anyone ever felt threatened by their dogs?
> 
> I was afraid of Smokey when I first rescued him. I used to keep a 2X4 nearby just in case. But boy was that the inexperience in me...


There is only one dog I have been ever scared of so far and that was a Malamute. That dog was so big and strong and he meant business. There was no way I could have handled him physically if he had attacked me. 

I wasn't even scared of the foster that was really going at me because if he did, I choked him off my arm, he wasn't capable of overpowering me and I had the situation under control. The Malamute on the other hand...:help:


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## Gharrissc

I don't know about this woman,but there are a lot of people out there who want to prove to some degree that ' they can do it and everything will be fine'.




bocron said:


> 2 Presas in a house with 2 pits and a boxer mix? Not anything I would ever remotely consider.


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## selzer

Gharrissc said:


> I don't know about this woman,but there are a lot of people out there who want to prove to some degree that ' they can do it and everything will be fine'.


People want to be Cesar?


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> People want to be Cesar?


More than that. A lot of people in rescue, (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) have bleeding hearts and they are involved emotionally not capable of looking at the facts, pure and simple. 

They are completely blind and think that "every poor baby" can be "cured". 

I'm not saying that that poor woman was one of them. None of us have been there, we don't know what really happened to her. 

However, I get to see a lot of aggressive problem dogs pulled from Shelters, put into a program to make them adoptable...dogs that should have never left the shelter in the first place.


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## Gharrissc

Lol I didn't think of him,but I guess.




selzer said:


> People want to be Cesar?


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## bocron

selzer said:


> People want to be Cesar?


Another thing I wouldn't remotely consider .


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## blehmannwa

I love my new pit puppy. She is 13 weeks old and very promising. But I have to say that I'm cautious. She's 14 lb.s to Havoc's 80 lb.s and is holding her own in their play. Her boldness and gameness could make her a formidable dog. I would never attempt to mix presas and pit bulls especially as adult dogs. 
I monitor every interaction between her and Havoc. Pits have a huge capacity to bond to humans and that trait can be used to counter their tendency to be dog aggressive. My limited experience with Cane Corsos, Presas and Komondors make me think that they are not so innately people friendly.


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## wyominggrandma

I am sure once one dog started the attack, the "pack" mentality turned on and all the dogs had a part in killing or at least attacking/biting the lady that was killed.
I can't imagine keeping a group of fighting type mentality dogs together for very long without something happening....
How horrible for her family.


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## LARHAGE

A co-worker came to me about a year ago telling me her son had a deposit on a Presa puppy and if I knew anything about them, her son is 32 but he has his parents watch his dogs frequently as he is a Fireman. I told her to tell him to get his deposit back as this is a horrible breed to have in his situation ( I think it's a horrible breed to begin with, but I digress) anyway, he went ahead and got the dog, sure enough 8 months later the dog badly bit her son for just walking by his food dish, he suffered multiple punctures on the top of his foot and ankle, needless to say he got rid of him, I just don't understand the appeal of a large, hideous, aggressive dog, but that's just me I guess. If it was the last breed of dog on earth, I still wouldn't have one.


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## seraphim

*Fear Frenzy over GSD*

To my local grocery and specialty shops, my service dog Sera in bright yellow vest is a common sight.

I don't normally allow social interaction when she's working, but sometimes, if I see a child clearly interested, but a bit unsure, I will put Sera in a down/stay while asking the parent if the child would like to pet her. This type of public service usually has the parent saying things like: "wow! We've wanted a big dog, but Johnny was scared of them--until meeting your dog" or "thank you. My boys thought German Shepherds only attack people. I wanted to show them that working dogs were safe" or other nice comments like that.

So I was blown away when, strolling down the market aisle a woman snatches her kids-- darn near dislocating their arms-- and says "Get that killer dog away from my kids. I'm calling the police!"

Near the produce aisle: " Aw h*ll NO you ain't bringin that dog up in here where I'm shoppin!" (then dragged her daughter away so abruptly that the kid 
lost her shoe!) I'm a find me the manager to throw your a** out afore your dog hurts someone!"
And it kept happening everywhere I went.


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## Questforfire

What a dreadful story, and I wouldn't even like to begin to imagine what that poor woman went through in her final moments. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

Here in the UK we already have four banned breeds of dog :-

Pit Bull Terrier
Japanese Tosa
Dogo Argentino
Fila Braziliero

It is interesting that the Presa Canario is not among this group. It is not a breed of dog I have ever had anything to do with, but they are clearly large, powerful and protective dogs and, as such, need competent and experienced owners.


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## JakodaCD OA

Copper sorry it disappoints you that some of us may not be particularly fond of a certain breed, presa's being one of them.

There's a few breed of dogs I would not own unless I got them as a puppy 'maybe', but wouldn't actively seek them out.

Guess we are entitled to our opinions and that's mine, no presa's in my household ever


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Mrs.K said:


> More than that. A lot of people in rescue, (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) have bleeding hearts and they are involved emotionally not capable of looking at the facts, pure and simple.
> 
> They are completely blind and think that "every poor baby" can be "cured".
> 
> I'm not saying that that poor woman was one of them. None of us have been there, we don't know what really happened to her.
> 
> However, I get to see a lot of aggressive problem dogs pulled from Shelters, put into a program to make them adoptable...dogs that should have never left the shelter in the first place.


I have volunteered in rescue for 9 years now and have to agree with this. 

I am not an "expert" in any breed but the little that some know about the breeds they work with scares the bejeepers out of me. I love Chow Chows, but not for one minute would I tell someone that they were little sweeties and misunderstood if one was being a jerk (I saw this with love). The opposite of these people is a friend I know who does Malamute rescue and not only don't they sugar coat it, they let adopters know it all: destruction, exercise requirements, dog aggression. 

I don't see a LOT of aggression cases pulled from shelters personally, but know of cases where amazingly great dogs were left behind to help the dog who is trying to bite someone. If you want a project or to give a dog who won't get adopted/saved, pick the dog in the back of the kennel who wouldn't dream of biting you, but that is not the pity case or the one that will get the rescuer all the attention and kudos. 

As for Presas and GSDs being alike...well...I am hanging out with the wrong GSDs....or, the right ones.


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## minerva_deluthe

I find Presas very scary. I don't mind BSL, actually, and I owned pit bulls for years (though they are now banned where I live). If you read the statistics and there is a high percentage of very damaging bites, it starts to make sense. Also, pit bulls are among the most mistreated dogs in the world I am quite confident to say, sadly. I am sure that this would extend to other breeds of dogs that become popular for their aggression.


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## iloveshepherds

you couldnt pay me a million bucks to have a large group of fostered bully breed dogs in my home...especially a presa canario.I feel so bad for the lady...and her daughter who witnessed it. thats just horrible.i googled the story on the lady in california. omg.granted it can happen with other dogs too.....but when there is a dog like that which was specifically bred to be a guard/fighting dog..its not meant to be a lap dog.just look at shepherds...bred to herd...and sometimes that trait comes out and they try to herd kids or even their people........you know that guard dog/fighting trait can come out...its just in the genes.just too scary for me.


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## Carriesue

I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to own or not liking a certain breed as long as you're not spewing ignorant hate about them. I myself would never own a Jack Russell's but that's just because they're not for me. I think it's far more responsible for someone to say and admit that such and such breed isn't for them or is too much for them to responsibly care for.

Even if dogs like Presa's are raised correctly, they are still not a dog for the average joe and unfortunately a lot of breeders except exceptionally good ones will sell these types of dogs to people who have no business having them. That's the only area I could see a BSL being needed. If there was a way to regulate who can buy these types of dogs that would be great, just not sure how they'd go about something like that.

And as for the women, I feel terrible for her, her family and her dogs... horrible situation all around.


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## Lilie

I find it a little confusing that dogs known for 'loyalty' would turn on their owner so easily. I could understand a new member of a perhaps unstable pack. But if this poor woman had several of the dogs for a while, I would have thought the rest of the pack would have turned on the aggressor and not the human. Not saying she wouldn't have been harmed in during the attack, but perhaps given the opportunity to flee. 


I can follow the thought process of an entire pack going after the weakest link. But it would seem to me, in the beginning of the attack, if a person is fighting back, the 'loyalty' of the pack would support the person.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think you are looking at loyalty from 
A. a human perspective
B. a herding breed perspective
For A, I am pretty confident that we think of it differently than a dog - who may have packed up. 
For B, I may just be biased! I think there is a level of intelligence in herding breeds that is not seen in the breeds in the story. Oh, yep, that's definitely biased, but not sure if based in fact or bias.


----------



## Jo_in_TX

I'm very biased, too. I wouldn't own any large breed dog that isn't in the top ten or so for trainability/intelligence. 

Recently, a woman came into the park with two large mastiffs. First time I saw them there, and I left. With one large mastiff, I might have just moved to the other side of the park, but two? Nope.


----------



## Blanketback

I believe I may be Queen of the Biased - before I had my first GSD, I actually considered myself a 'cat person', lmao! I wouldn't have any other breed, period. I would even move away if they were banned here.

A guy in my neighborhood has a Dogo. I've met her and she's a nice dog, but she's incredibly large (almost as big as her owner, lol) and in my own personal opinion, she's unattractive. I think he got her as a guard dog, and I'm positive it's working!

I feel sorry for that woman, and I think what Jo Ellen said about her betrayal is heartbreakingly true. But you couldn't pay me enough to put me in her situation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yeah, I think too, when you look at that trainability thing - like Chows are lower on the list, but they are also not meant to be a really large breed - which makes sense. If you are going to have a dog that has an agenda outside your own, you'd like it to be one that you can "over power". 

What makes me so sad about this is - when playing with a dog and you get bit, or they catch you right with their teeth by mistake - it hurts SO bad - and you have control over them and can make them stop...I just cannot imagine the terror and the horror of a dog attack...


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## Jo_in_TX

I've been attacked by a dog, and it was one of the scariest things I've ever been through. Maybe the scariest, in fact. I had superficial wounds to all four limbs, and a big gash on my left thigh. Thankfully the dog was no more than about fifty to sixty pounds, and I remained standing. He was jumping and jumping and jumping for my face and neck. 

I didn't have a large dog at the time although I had certainly owned them in the past, and it was a long time before I was brave enough to get another large breed dog, which did upset me greatly. I could have never gotten Teddy as an adult; I had to start with a puppy. And she's the best thing that ever happened to me because now I am around GSDs, rotties, dobermans, and an assortment of other larger dogs at the dog park and I'm absolutely fine, but it took a while.


----------



## Gharrissc

The shelters/rescues I work with will take the time to give a dog an adjustment period once they come in,but if they are truly aggressive, nobody can adopt them even if they are qualified to do so. This has caused some controversy with some dogs especially if certain staff member thought they could be helped,but the liability is just too great. We had a Rottweiler/Boxer mix who was extremely fear aggressive because of his owner's abuse. The dog actually attacked the ACO who came to follow up on the case and put over 100 staples in his arm! There were some staff members who were willing to pay for his transport to a sanctuary in Va that specializes in rehabbing aggressive dogs,but it was overturned by the Director.




JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I don't see a LOT of aggression cases pulled from shelters personally, but know of cases where amazingly great dogs were left behind to help the dog who is trying to bite someone. If you want a project or to give a dog who won't get adopted/saved, pick the dog in the back of the kennel who wouldn't dream of biting you, but that is not the pity case or the one that will get the rescuer all the attention and kudos.
> 
> As for Presas and GSDs being alike...well...I am hanging out with the wrong GSDs....or, the right ones.


----------



## wyoung2153

Zeeva said:


> How sad :c...
> 
> Has anyone ever felt threatened by their dogs?
> 
> I was afraid of Smokey when I first rescued him. I used to keep a 2X4 nearby just in case. But boy was that the inexperience in me...


I don't think threatened would be the right word, but there was a point when Titan was growing up where I was like "Dang, I wonder if he knows he could kill me if he wanted to..." Not like a felt he had a reason to or was scared of him, he is my world, but it just dawned on me that he could seriously damage me if he deemed necessary.


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## iloveshepherds

Jo_in_TX said:


> I've been attacked by a dog, and it was one of the scariest things I've ever been through. Maybe the scariest, in fact. I had superficial wounds to all four limbs, and a big gash on my left thigh. Thankfully the dog was no more than about fifty to sixty pounds, and I remained standing. He was jumping and jumping and jumping for my face and neck.


OMG! Im glad you are ok!


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## iloveshepherds

and I think if people ever feel "threatened" by their dog, they shouldnt have it. dogs can read that...and if your dog isnt balanced...yikes, i would hate to see how that would be.
i never feel threatened...and my dogs are balanced...I could probably die at night, and they would probably cuddle with me....and not eat me. LOL
i hope.
i can take away their bones, or their food....anything. and they let me. cuz they know. LOL
for dogs that growl at their owners......those i can see "going postal"


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## CeCe

Horrible. Those large bullies-presas, dogos, and fila brasileiros, are very dangerous dogs.


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## Mrs.K

One of my oldest friends from Teenage days, over in Germany, is breeding Dogos and the President of the Dogo Club in Germany. So far I have not met a bad dogo but he's doing a great job with the breed and as an advocate for the breed. 

He said the worst thing is when people see those dogs not for what they are and treat them like cute "little" couch potatoes without recognizing what they initially bred for completely ignoring whats in their genes and what the true needs of the breed is.


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## Jo_in_TX

iloveshepherds said:


> OMG! Im glad you are ok!


Thanks! I'm glad I was ok, too.  It really changed me, though, since I was such a "dog person" prior to the attack, but was left scared. It made me very sad not to enjoy dogs afterwards. I felt robbed.


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## wolfy dog

Mrs.K said:


> More than that. A lot of people in rescue, (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) have bleeding hearts and they are involved emotionally not capable of looking at the facts, pure and simple.
> 
> They are completely blind and think that "every poor baby" can be "cured".
> 
> I'm not saying that that poor woman was one of them. None of us have been there, we don't know what really happened to her.
> 
> However, I get to see a lot of aggressive problem dogs pulled from Shelters, put into a program to make them adoptable...dogs that should have never left the shelter in the first place.


My experience too. Local shelters import the aggressive Chihuahuas and any other small breeds/mutts from CA, no temperament testing and adopt them out to the public the next day. Only to end up on Craigslist sometime later as " he likes to be the only dog, shy at first but bonds strongly with owner, is afraid of children" 
It is big money making business for shelters, as they sell fast here, under the name of "rescue" while the local shelter dogs just sit and wait.
Many so called rescuers/animal lovers are plain hoarders and AC needs to get involved. 
I am allergic to the word "animal lover". Most just love but don't understand or train the animal. That's how people get killed, especially when pack mentality kicks in.
BTW in 2002 a Pomeranian killed a three month old baby who was left alone on the couch briefly. Any breed is capable of killing, bully breed or not.


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## VortexD

Jo_in_TX said:


> I'm very biased, too. I wouldn't own any large breed dog that isn't in the top ten or so for trainability/intelligence.
> 
> Recently, a woman came into the park with two large mastiffs. First time I saw them there, and I left. With one large mastiff, I might have just moved to the other side of the park, but two? Nope.


A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's....Whats up with that? I had two Cane Coros. One rescue and another that I raised as a pup and I absolutely loved them..Great dogs...were super good with kids, dogs and anyoen else they came into contact with.

Really I expected people on this forum of all places to know its always the owner to blame. But seeing such blind hate against any mastiffs on a GSD forum is kind of entertaining.
Only dog I ever had a problem with was this tiny chiwawa and I hated the thing. I still believe far more small dogs are responsible for bites then big dogs but because they so cute and cuddle no one really minds...


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## selzer

VortexD said:


> A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's....Whats up with that? I had two Cane Coros. One rescue and another that I raised as a pup and I absolutely loved them..Great dogs...were super good with kids, dogs and anyoen else they came into contact with.
> 
> Really I expected people on this forum of all places to know its always the owner to blame. But seeing such blind hate against any mastiffs on a GSD forum is kind of entertaining.
> Only dog I ever had a problem with was this tiny chiwawa and I hated the thing. I still believe far more small dogs are responsible for bites then big dogs but because they so cute and cuddle no one really minds...


Nope, there is a lot of blame toward breeders, as many bites are caused by fear-aggression, and fear aggression can be or is a genetic condition caused by weak nerves.

The site is pretty much against BSL, but a little shaky on the the premise that it is in how they are raised.


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## Gharrissc

Speaking for myself here,I don't have a problem with Mastiffs or Bully breeds. I said in my earlier post that I've met a lot of great ones and a lot of not so great ones. I've had several breeds of Mastiffs,but wouldn't personally own a Presa. My neighbor has a Cane Corso who is a great dog and I've had a few Cane Corso's come through the rescue who were also very sound. However,they are not the breed of dog for everyone. Presas,certainly fall into that category of not belonging with a lot of people who have them. Any dog,including our beloved GSD's can be a danger if in the wrong hands! 

As far as leaving the park if someone came in with a certain breed of dog,I personally wouldn't.




VortexD said:


> A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's....Whats up with that? I had two Cane Coros. One rescue and another that I raised as a pup and I absolutely loved them..Great dogs...were super good with kids, dogs and anyoen else they came into contact with.


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## Jo Ellen

It can't always be the owner to blame -- nothing is ever that black and white. I think in at least some of these cases of fatal dog attacks, the dynamics have been fairly complicated. We really don't know enough about canine behavior to make any conclusions about who or what is to blame, let alone that it's_ always_ the owner. Too simplified.


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## Gharrissc

This




Jo Ellen said:


> It can't always be the owner to blame -- nothing is ever that black and white. I think in at least some of these cases of fatal dog attacks, the dynamics have been fairly complicated. We really don't know enough about canine behavior to make any conclusions about who or what is to blame, let alone that it's_ always_ the owner. Too simplified.


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## msvette2u

Hating a breed? Hate is a strong word.
I'd own one. But I DO NOT KNOW the breed. I do not hate them but not knowing a breed and trying to own it is folly, no matter what the breed. 
I think you are barking up the wrong tree, pardon the pun. People on this board don't "hate" other breeds. Just not being familiar with or saying you would not own one doesn't equate "hate".



> A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's..


Oh, and your use of an apostrophe in this sentence is incorrect.


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## selzer

Jo Ellen said:


> It can't always be the owner to blame -- nothing is ever that black and white. I think in at least some of these cases of fatal dog attacks, the dynamics have been fairly complicated. We really don't know enough about canine behavior to make any conclusions about who or what is to blame, let alone that it's_ always_ the owner. Too simplified.



Yes, but we can sometimes make an educated guess. 

Some breeds when shown, are actually faced off toward one another, not to have a dog fight then and there, but to show the dog's courage and that the dog won't back down. I have seen this. 

When you put 5 such dogs into a living situation, where they are all running loose together, and none of them are going to actually back down from a fight, well, the chances that a fight happen is not so much if, but when. 

There is a reason Cesar gets out on his special skates or bicycle and runs his pack for miles each day. Without commitment to exercise, training, careful introductions, and strong leadership, there are going to be fights. 

And it is possible that the dog did not attack another dog, that there was no fight. It is possible that she asserted her authority with one of them and with a new dog in the mix, well, the dog might have just attacked. My guess is a dog fight, but if none of the dog appear to have been in a fight, well, that would rule that out. 

When some woman told me she had 13 GSDs all running together and she wanted to buy two females from me. I turned her down flat.


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## selzer

msvette2u said:


> Hating a breed? Hate is a strong word.
> I'd own one. But I DO NOT KNOW the breed. I do not hate them but not knowing a breed and trying to own it is folly, no matter what the breed.
> I think you are barking up the wrong tree, pardon the pun. People on this board don't "hate" other breeds. Just not being familiar with or saying you would not own one doesn't equate "hate".
> 
> 
> Oh, and your use of an apostrophe in this sentence is incorrect.


LOL, were is the Grammar Police when you need them. It should be "hate." not "hate". But yeah, we are most of us not haters when it comes to dog breeds. But there is nothing wrong with the idea that there are breeds we would not own for whatever reason.


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## msvette2u

> But there is nothing wrong with the idea that there are breeds we would not own for whatever reason.


It's called knowing your limitations 
I LOVE Labradors. Beautiful breed. But I don't want to own one


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## Jo_in_TX

VortexD said:


> A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's....Whats up with that? I had two Cane Coros. One rescue and another that I raised as a pup and I absolutely loved them..Great dogs...were super good with kids, dogs and anyoen else they came into contact with.
> 
> Really I expected people on this forum of all places to know its always the owner to blame. But seeing such blind hate against any mastiffs on a GSD forum is kind of entertaining.
> Only dog I ever had a problem with was this tiny chiwawa and I hated the thing. I still believe far more small dogs are responsible for bites then big dogs but because they so cute and cuddle no one really minds...


I don't hate mastiffs, although I am cautious around them. Mostly, I am extremely cautious around any "pack" of large breed dogs known for aggression, since the few incidents at the dog park I go to have generally involved "packs" of dogs from one home. Two bullies, four huskies  , etc. 

Like I wrote earlier, I would have probably just moved to another part of the park if she had come in with one mastiff and simply observed the dog for a while. I tend to do that with any unfamiliar dog who enters the park.


----------



## selzer

I actually like Mastiffs -- English Mastiffs, 200+ dogs that really don't bite, but will hold you there until the cops come. 

I don't like Neapolitin Mastiffs, just the wrinkles, etc, not my cup of tea.

At one point I wanted a bull-mastiff. But I got over that. 

I think when you breed mastiffs to dogs that are primarily used to take on game or other dogs in a physical fight, you get dogs that are large and willing to engage. It's an awful lot of dog for anyone, and more than one of them? Add that to a couple of pits and a boxer. 

The gal wanted to help the dogs, but her foolishness, might have increased the hating of dogs in general and those breeds she obviously cared about in particular. Too bad. It is a tragedy. I hope it does not spark further debate and sanctions.


----------



## RebelGSD

I am appalled by the lack of kindness and compassion towards a very young girl who tragically lost her life. Yes, animals, horses, dolphins, dogs, manta rays can injure humans. It is probably good that she is dead so that she does not have to read strangers who know nothing about her abilities or about the particular animals trashing her on the Internet. Apparently this forum cannot even be kind to the dead.


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Wow.
> From what I know, that combo can be pretty dangerous; *Presas killed a woman in Cali a few years ago.*
> 
> No. I've never felt threatened by any of my dogs. Fosters either. I would not own a dog I didn't feel safe with.
> 
> But this gal probably didn't feel unsafe, either. That said, I do not have experience with, nor do I desire, to own another breed, such as the type mastiff involved here.


 
The woman killed was not the owner - just lived in the same apartment building!


----------



## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> This is, sadly enough, how BSL gets started


 
*VERY TRUE! And equally sad!*


----------



## codmaster

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm not in favor of BSL, but *if there was a presa living anywhere near me, I would be in a fit. It would be gone or I would move.*
> 
> Not truly terrified of many dogs, but this is one. I remember the California story very well.


 
*Why? I met a couple of Presa's at a dog show once - male and female adults. friendliest dogs I ran into in the entire show - wanted to come and sit in my lap! VERY VERY nice dogs!!!!! *


----------



## llombardo

Jo_in_TX said:


> I don't hate mastiffs, although I am cautious around them. .


As long as I can remember mastiffs in general are not aggressive dogs. As they have been bred more and more, some types of mastiffs can be DA, but most mastiff breeds are loyal to their owners and not aggressive toward people. My mom wanted a mastiff and if she didn't pass away that is what I would have gotten her when her Rott passed away I know someone that breeds and shows them, they are beautiful, peaceful and coexist fine with each other in the house. She also does pet sitting and has sometimes 5-10 other dogs in her house with no problems. I go to the park with my GSD and sadly people see her and go the other way, it really irritates me because she behaves well, doesn't make a peep or lunge, etc. I wouldn't be any better if I ran the other way if I seen a huge dog that was controlled and behaving nicely


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## Jo Ellen

codmaster said:


> *Why? I met a couple of Presa's at a dog show once - male and female adults. friendliest dogs I ran into in the entire show - wanted to come and sit in my lap! VERY VERY nice dogs!!!!! *


 
Because I'm terrified of them. Right or wrong. I just am.


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## llombardo

Jo Ellen said:


> Because I'm terrified of them. Right or wrong. I just am.


Believe it or not I held a grudge against collies for a while. When I was about 7 one chased me around the car and was trying to kill me(or so I thought then), while my mom sat in the car laughing so hard at me she was crying. Finally some nice man came and helped me. I probably would never own a collie, but I would never let one run the streets if it needed help


----------



## chelle

selzer said:


> Why not believe that a young woman with five substantial dogs, dogs that are or have been bred at some point as fighting dogs, might get in trouble. The Presa is a fighting dog. I would not own one either. They are too much dog for me, and I am not that young, nor small, nor inexperienced with formidable dogs.


Just common sense. Thank you for having some! Threads like this typically do not. 



msvette2u said:


> Oh there's a whole bunch of people who insist these are not aggressive dogs, and the pit bulls aren't - to humans. But they also say "never trust one not to fight".
> I'm glad I'm not the only one appalled at having 5 large powerful dogs together in an apartment.
> Dogo Canario Club of America -- Temperament
> Not one Presa, but two...plus two more dogs known for ring fighting.
> 
> Sad all around.


Repeat. Even more common sense applied. I'm liking this.



Mrs.K said:


> More than that. A lot of people in rescue, (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) have bleeding hearts and they are involved emotionally not capable of looking at the facts, pure and simple.
> 
> They are completely blind and think that "every poor baby" can be "cured".
> 
> I'm not saying that that poor woman was one of them. None of us have been there, we don't know what really happened to her.
> 
> However, I get to see a lot of aggressive problem dogs pulled from Shelters, put into a program to make them adoptable...dogs that should have never left the shelter in the first place.


More common sense... oh no what is happening here.



VortexD said:


> A lot of hate in this thread for mastiff's....Whats up with that? I had two Cane Coros. One rescue and another that I raised as a pup and I absolutely loved them..Great dogs...were super good with kids, dogs and anyoen else they came into contact with.
> 
> Really I expected people on this forum of all places to know *its always the owner to blame*. But seeing such *blind hate* against any mastiffs on a GSD forum is kind of entertaining.
> 
> Only dog I ever had a problem with was this tiny chiwawa and I hated the thing. I still believe far more small dogs are responsible for bites then big dogs but because they so cute and cuddle no one really minds...


Always the owner to blame? Uh-oh, common sense just took a nosedive off the cliff. So blind hate against *your* chosen breed is not acceptable, but *is* fine if against a Chihuahua? Okay! 



RebelGSD said:


> I am appalled by the lack of kindness and compassion towards a very young girl who tragically lost her life. Yes, animals, horses, dolphins, dogs, manta rays can injure humans. It is probably good that she is dead so that she does not have to read strangers who know nothing about her abilities or about the particular animals trashing her on the Internet. Apparently this forum cannot even be kind to the dead.


I am sad she lost her life and what a rotten way to lose it -- doing what you think is a good thing. She apparently believed she could manage such a tough bunch, but she was wrong.

It's been seen before plenty of times. People think they can manage tigers, too, until the tiger acts like a tiger and mauls and kills them.


----------



## blehmannwa

National Geographic did a dog DNA analysis of many different breeds and GSDs were firmly in the mastiff--rather than herding group. The footnote mentioned selective breeding for protection and police work as a factor..


----------



## selzer

RebelGSD said:


> I am appalled by the lack of kindness and compassion towards a very young girl who tragically lost her life. Yes, animals, horses, dolphins, dogs, manta rays can injure humans. It is probably good that she is dead so that she does not have to read strangers who know nothing about her abilities or about the particular animals trashing her on the Internet. Apparently this forum cannot even be kind to the dead.


I think it is an insult to her memory and possibly a danger to some other person considering doing something similar to not call it like you see it. She is dead, and it can't hurt her what we say. 

Just because someone died on account of something they did, does not make what they did perfectly ok. Pointing out how it contributed to someone's death might just prevent someone else's. 

She was 23, terrible tragedy. What you are hearing is people with two or more times her age and probably that much more experience with dogs of many types, saying they wouldn't try what she did.


----------



## RebelGSD

I was just raised not to trash the dead and those who are not in the position to defend themselves and explain their actions. Yes, she is too dead to be hurt, which does not make it right. Heer family isn't. 
I doubt this discussion helps anybody, since people who actually care to have for these breeds would have left the thread anyway. It is trashing someone for nothing and shows bad taste.


----------



## selzer

RebelGSD said:


> I was just raised not to trash the dead and those who are not in the position to defend themselves and explain their actions. Yes, she is too dead to be hurt, which does not make it right. Heer family isn't.
> I doubt this discussion helps anybody, since people who actually care to have for these breeds would have left the thread anyway. It is trashing someone for nothing and shows bad taste.


Actually, I have read an awful lot of pity for her and her family. We are all dog-lovers here, and if looking at this incident honestly makes someone think twice before agreeing to take a dog into their pack to pet sit, because it just might not be a good idea, then this conversation should be honest. 

The fact is she died because she tried to let five formidable dogs run around in her dwelling with free access to each other. One of these dogs was not hers. That was a fatal mistake. 

When someone dies because they fell asleep driving, it might just make someone else decide to lay over and drive home in the morning. It isn't trashing them to say they shouldn't have tried to drive home so late, or when they were so tired, or after such a long exhausting day. 

Part of the human condition is to avoid death and serious injury. We want to make sense of these situations because we like to feel in control. If I don't do this, I won't die like that. Some situations we really cannot pinpoint why something happened. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize it when it is there. It is much worse for those of us who have dogs to simply think they might turn at any moment and kill us.


----------



## chelle

RebelGSD said:


> I was just raised not to trash the dead and those who are not in the position to defend themselves and explain their actions. Yes, she is too dead to be hurt, which does not make it right. Heer family isn't.
> I doubt this discussion helps anybody, since people who actually care to have for these breeds would have left the thread anyway. It is trashing someone for nothing and shows bad taste.


I don't think anyone is trashing her! I'm sure her family is hurting tremendously, but at the same time, do you also think they might be very much wishing she had not taken on so much?

I think the discussion is indeed helpful. It is too easy, when you love dogs, to take on more than you are equipped for. Just too easy. 

I don't know why breed afficionados would leave the thread over this? A *true* afficionado *knows* their breed, its limitations, its tendencies and is honest about it all. They don't let their love or ego overwhelm the truth of the situation -- some dogs should not be mixed without a very tight structure. We aren't talking about five Labs here or five itty bitty dogs.. she had, what, 2 pits, 2 presos and a boxer-mix? That's quite the bunch. I don't know the sexes, nor whether they were intact or not -- but no matter -- that IS an impressive bunch of aggressive-prone dogs to attempt to put together.!

Her heart was in front of her brain here, I'm very sad to say. May she rest in peace. I do feel for her because I do truly believe she had a caring heart and apparently believed she could manage it -- but she could not. My own thoughts there would be she attempted to break up a fight and they turned on her. As a dog lover, I cannot imagine a worse way to die.


----------



## Betty

My heart goes out to the young lady's family. I am sure that they will have nightmares for a long time in addition to grief and unbearable pain.

There are things I will not attempt at 50 that I would of while in my 20's. It's obvious that this young girl had a big heart and a lot of compassion in her soul.


----------



## Gharrissc

I agree with this young lady taking on two much with the breed combo she had. She obviously loved what she did,but a lot more than love was needed to manage this pack. I haven't seen anyone up here 'trashing' her,just stating their opinions. I've dealt with some pretty hard tempered dogs,but a Presa and some other breeds don't fit into my household. That's doesn't mean that I won't do whatever I can to help them if they are in need,they just won't be staying at my house.

I see this a lot with volunteers at the shelters around here.One lady who was a long time volunteer,tried to handle any and all aggressive dogs even if there was a sign on their kennel door to not go inside. She came close a few times to getting attacked by these dogs who had 'Dangerous' on their kennel doors because she insisted on trying to go inside and help them. These are dogs that even the shelter staff couldn't safely handle without serious strategy. Needless to say she was asked to not come back to the shelter if she couldn't follow procedures,she stopped coming.


I agree with Chelle and the others who say that a true breed advocate needs to be completely honest about what their breed of choice is capable of and not try to make everything out to be roses. As I've said, I've seen good and bad examples of every breed,but just because I've seen a good example doesn't mean that they fit into my household.


----------



## codmaster

chelle said:


> Just common sense. Thank you for having some! Threads like this typically do not.
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat. Even more common sense applied. I'm liking this.
> 
> 
> 
> More common sense... oh no what is happening here.
> 
> 
> 
> Always the owner to blame? Uh-oh, common sense just took a nosedive off the cliff. So blind hate against *your* chosen breed is not acceptable, but *is* fine if against a Chihuahua? Okay!
> 
> 
> 
> I am sad she lost her life and what a rotten way to lose it -- doing what you think is a good thing. She apparently believed she could manage such a tough bunch, but she was wrong.
> 
> It's been seen before plenty of times.* People think they can manage tigers, too, until the tiger acts like a tiger and mauls and kills them*.


 
I would suspect that dogs, even "Terrible" ones like mastiffs and Cane Corso's and even the Presario's could be considered at leasst a LITTLE different than a wild animal like a Tiger, you thin?


----------



## codmaster

*Good Grief - seems like a LOT of breed prediduce showing up on this forum!*


As owners of GSD's (mostly!), we as a group should be kind of resistant to ths kind of such warped thinking and branding a breed with such a stereotype!


----------



## Gharrissc

I don't think it's breed predujice to say that certain breeds of dogs shouldn't be in certain people's homes. That's what a lot of people have said in this thread. I'm not against the dog breeds mentioned, I am against them being in the wrong hands,well intentioned hands or not.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

msvette2u said:


> It's so prevalent, though, people will get dogs like this and totally ignore the powerful fighting side of them, or the possibility they could ever fight w/each other.
> I've heard dozens of times "it's ALL in how you raise them!"


Amen!


----------



## Carriesue

Gharrissc said:


> I don't think it's breed predujice to say that certain breeds of dogs shouldn't be in certain people's homes. That's what a lot of people have said in this thread. I'm not against the dog breeds mentioned, I am against them being in the wrong hands,well intentioned hands or not.


^this exactly what I was trying to say!

If there's someone and I'll use the Presa's as an example, but if someone really knows the breed, knows how to train them, how to handle them and work with them then go for it! As opposed to someone who has no idea about their special needs requirements and just gets it to 'look cool' and be 'macho'.

I say the same thing about our GSD, not everyone is right to own our breed either. I don't see how that is discrimation.

I am definitely keeping this young women's family in my thoughts...


----------



## Carriesue

My only reason for not wanting to own a dog like this or a giant breed is because I am a very small women and I would have no way to physically keep control of such a dog if something were to go wrong and he/she was no longer listening to commands.


----------



## Anubis_Star

Neo93 said:


> Dekalb County just overturned a pit bull ban, so now I wonder if pit bull opponents will use this to try to get the ban reinstated.


I hope they don't. Cases like this are heartbreaking, but many breeds kill. There is the huge ban in Denver because 2 people were killed by pit bulls in a 20 year time frame, but in that same period of time 2 people were killed by HUSKIES. Doesn't make the ban seem all that accurate if you ask me.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

Just wow at some of the comments in this thread in support of BSL. You sound really ridiculous coming from owners/lovers of a breed used to bite and attack people every day.

BSL is a very slippery slope and German Shepherds are on dangerous dog lists!! Some of these comments are just unbelievable to me as an advocate against BSL. Its one thing to have an opinion, its another to fear monger what you personally have no experience with. When it comes to BSL....United we stand, divided we fall.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

Carriesue said:


> My only reason for not wanting to own a dog like this or a giant breed is because I am a very small women and I would have no way to physically keep control of such a dog if something were to go wrong and he/she was no longer listening to commands.


A GSD can also easily over-power you if it means business.


----------



## Anubis_Star

blehmannwa said:


> National Geographic did a dog DNA analysis of many different breeds and GSDs were firmly in the mastiff--rather than herding group. The footnote mentioned selective breeding for protection and police work as a factor..


When you really look at it, for all intensive purposes german shepherds were NOT bred to be "herding" dogs. They were bred to be versatile working dogs. Max Von Stephanitz himself 'created' schutzhund as a way to test breeding stock, no herding involved. And Max himself approached the German army about using German Shepherds.


----------



## bocron

Anubis_Star said:


> When you really look at it, for all *intensive purposes* german shepherds were NOT bred to be "herding" dogs.


Sorry, just had to correct this. The phrase is intents and purposes, meaning just what is says. The intent and the purpose of a given thing.


----------



## PatchonGSD

chelle said:


> Just common sense. Thank you for having some! Threads like this typically do not.
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat. Even more common sense applied. I'm liking this.
> 
> 
> 
> More common sense... oh no what is happening here.
> 
> 
> 
> Always the owner to blame? Uh-oh, common sense just took a nosedive off the cliff. So blind hate against *your* chosen breed is not acceptable, but *is* fine if against a Chihuahua? Okay!
> 
> 
> 
> I am sad she lost her life and what a rotten way to lose it -- doing what you think is a good thing. She apparently believed she could manage such a tough bunch, but she was wrong.
> 
> It's been seen before plenty of times. People think they can manage tigers, too, until the tiger acts like a tiger and mauls and kills them.


lmao I seriously love your posts!


----------



## PatchonGSD

This might be a stupid question....but since she was living in an apartment, wouldnt it be likely that someone would have heard all the commotion going on while she was being killed? Dogs possibly fighting before attacking her...her yelling and screaming at the dogs?


----------



## wolfy dog

MustLoveGSDs said:


> A GSD can also easily over-power you if it means business.


So do horses, that's why you need to train them at an early age so they will never know how strong they are. Same goes for dogs.
And regarding "it is the owner, not the breed" that is partly true but why is it that you never hear that a Whippet or Borzoi killed his owner?
Some breeds have a genetically lower threshold for biting than others.
And I have only met gentle giants of (English)Mastiffs, more so than Dachshunds


----------



## Jo Ellen

PatchonGSD said:


> This might be a stupid question....but since she was living in an apartment, wouldnt it be likely that someone would have heard all the commotion going on while she was being killed? Dogs possibly fighting before attacking her...her yelling and screaming at the dogs?


I wondered the same. What's truly terrifying is that she was living with these dogs in an apartment complex at all. I don't get that. At all. What was the landlord thinking, what were the potential liabilities


----------



## bocron

wolfy dog said:


> Some breeds have a genetically lower threshold for biting than others.
> And I have only met gentle giants of (English)Mastiffs, more so than Dachshunds


Maybe it is our set up, we do professional training and are known to deal with behavioral and social problems. We see a half dozen or so of the molosser breeds every year with EXTREME social aggression issues. We see many other types as well throughout the year, but in my experience the molossers with social aggression issues (either as a result of upbringing and/or genetics) are MUCH harder to re-wire than the average retriever or herding type breed. In the past year we've had 3 Boerboels, 1 Presa, 2 Cane Corsos and a Dogo (that I can recall). I couldn't count the number of American Bulldogs, pits or pit mixes. I hate to stereotype, but in many cases it seems like the owner secretly wants a scary dog and is only seeking out help because another family member is pressuring them to do something. Almost every one of them quits training after a lesson or 2. They realize how much work is ahead of them and just decide to keep the dog "contained". After a while this becomes an issue and the dog ends up in rescue. This is my worry about the molossers and rescue.


----------



## DharmasMom

I'm just wondering. Did they put all the dogs down BEFORE they did an autopsy? Have they released the results that actually prove she died from dog related injuries and not some other freak injury/illness that resulted in the dogs desecrating her body prior to being found? 

I don't really know to much about this other than what I read in the OP's article.


----------



## Gharrissc

As someone who did have 3 large dogs in an off campus apartment while in college, it could have worked. It was a huge undertaking though to make sure that the dogs had an appropriate outlets though. I was never the 'typical' college student who enjoyed going to parties and spent the extra time I did have with dog activities. My parents farm was about 20 minutes away from the school and I would also take them there sometimes and pick them back up. 

It's just my guess that her landlord knew about her rescue work,and wasn't worried because of her reputation. We don't really know what kind of setup this young lady had for her dogs,but whatever it was didn't work.





Jo Ellen said:


> I wondered the same. What's truly terrifying is that she was living with these dogs in an apartment complex at all. I don't get that. At all. What was the landlord thinking, what were the potential liabilities


----------



## GsdLoverr729

They did an autopsy, and the cause of death was a bite. Or so they said on the news last night


----------



## Gharrissc

This or when the owner's themselves become afraid of the dogs.



bocron said:


> I hate to stereotype, but in many cases it seems like the owner secretly wants a scary dog and is only seeking out help because another family member is pressuring them to do something.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Gharrissc said:


> It's just my guess that her landlord knew about her rescue work,and wasn't worried because of her reputation. We don't really know what kind of setup this young lady had for her dogs,but whatever it was didn't work.


I bet the landlord is rethinking this issue now.


----------



## bocron

My guess it that the Presa that she was babysitting got into a scrap with one of her dogs. She stepped in to try to break it up and the non-pack dog felt threatened and went after her. 
We do daycare and spend all day with our "pack". We realize that it is artificial pack for the most part and are very careful about the mixing in of new dogs, bossy dogs, fearful dogs etc. Contrary to popular perception, a fearful dog is the most likely to set the pack off. Especially if it is one that squeals when it is scared.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

wolfy dog said:


> And regarding "it is the owner, not the breed" that is partly true but why is it that you never hear that a Whippet or Borzoi killed his owner?



It's not always in "how you raise them." You can be the best trainer and do everything right and still end up with a dog who is one fry short of a happy meal. Some dogs are just not normal. That goes for any breed. 



wolfy dog said:


> Some breeds have a genetically lower threshold for biting than others.


They do? Scientific proof please? Dogs of all breeds bite for all kinds of reasons, most of it is due to human error. I know a friend's chihuahua who would take your fingers off. By the same token, I know a friend's RESCUE Cane Corso who would roll on its back in front of you wondering why you haven't scratched the belly yet. You can't pin point certain breeds biting more than others, all dogs are individuals. Now, certain breeds were bred for certain things, so you'd be correct in saying something like "some breeds are more likely to herd than others."


----------



## GsdLoverr729

MustLoveGSDs said:


> It's not always in "how you raise them." You can be the best trainer and do everything right and still end up with a dog who is one fry short of a happy meal. Some dogs are just not normal. That goes for any breed.
> 
> 
> 
> They do? Scientific proof please? Dogs of all breeds bite for all kinds of reasons, most of it is due to human error. I know a friend's chihuahua who would take your fingers off. By the same token, I know a friend's RESCUE Cane Corso who would roll on its back in front of you wondering why you haven't scratched the belly yet. You can't pin point certain breeds biting more than others, all dogs are individuals. *Now, certain breeds were bred for certain things, so you'd be correct in saying something like "some breeds are more likely to herd than others.*"


 :thumbup: You could also compare bite STRENGTHS


----------



## msvette2u

Actually yes, the studies they've done have proven some dogs are more prone to biting humans than other breeds.
By saying "lower threshold" for biting, yes that is entirely correct. 

In fact...Leonbergers (we have one in rescue right now) are bred so their temperament is such that small kids can literally climb on and maul them. It's in their breed standard!

Dachshunds, on the other hand, don't have a high threshold/tolerance for kids and will bite them for far fewer transgressions, such as even being near, or running around near them.

But, having been bred to actually go underground and KILL badgers - not just hunt them, but literally kill them in their holes - a low bite threshold is a lifesaver for that breed. You grab them wrong (for instance to keep them from doing something) and you'll get nailed, because that is a survival instinct in them.
I'd say that's a "genetically lower bite threshold" if there ever was one.


----------



## GsdLoverr729

msvette2u said:


> Actually yes, the studies they've done have proven some dogs are more prone to biting humans than other breeds.
> By saying "lower threshold" for biting, yes that is entirely correct.
> 
> In fact...Leonbergers (we have one in rescue right now) are bred so their temperament is such that small kids can literally climb on and maul them. It's in their breed standard!
> 
> Dachshunds, on the other hand, don't have a high threshold/tolerance for kids and will bite them for far fewer transgressions, such as even being near, or running around near them.


 Wow!!! I didn't know leonbergers were like that. They look quite formiddable. I learn something new every day!!!


----------



## Jo Ellen

The more I read this thread and imagine the scenarios, the more incomprehensible it becomes to me. Bringing not just an outsider, but an outsider PRESA, into her home, her HOME, with the established pack ... WHYYYY  

Crap, I have a golden retriever and I know not to be lax about bringing a new dog into her intimate territory, inside our home. Her yard is generally okay with supervision, but the porch and beyond? A Presa? Over my dead body ... and I don't mean that disrespectfully at all. 

Maybe this girl was just too young to understand the dangers? Not enough experience? Where the h*ll were her parents  I'm sorry, 23 is an adult for sure, but if I saw my child doing something so dangerous, I'd be front and square in a blink, I'd be a lunatic about it.

I truly hate this story. I want to understand, but so much of it I don't. RIP sweet girl, your heart was large. May we all learn something meaningful in our lives from this.


----------



## llombardo

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Wow!!! I didn't know leonbergers were like that. They look quite formiddable. I learn something new every day!!!


Two weeks ago in class a leonberger attacked my GSD, you never seen a group of people move so fast. I would also like to add that this dog came from excellent lines and is owned by the trainer. I didn't trust the dog from the moment I walked in, she was too focused on my dog from the beginning.


----------



## GsdLoverr729

llombardo said:


> Two weeks ago in class a leonberger attacked my GSD, you never seen a group of people move so fast.


  Oh dear!


----------



## msvette2u

While they may show DA, in that particular breed, tolerance for kids is unmatched, at least that's what I've been reading. We study each breed we get in if we've never had one before, or it's more "rare".
In fact this guy is good with all the dogs he's met. A huge gentle teddy bear 

Leonberger Information and Pictures, Leonbergers


> . Loving and steadfast, stable and calm, the Leonberger just loves everyone. Their intelligence is extraordinary; their loyalty and love for their families is unparalleled. He has a friendly personality._ A well balanced Leonberger will be highly trustworthy and have incredible patience, even with the most obnoxious children. _With most of these dogs, if the situation becomes too intense, instead of showing any aggression, the Leonberger simply walks away. Most of these dogs can take bad behavior in their stride


.


----------



## Freestep

MustLoveGSDs said:


> You can't pin point certain breeds biting more than others.


Um... yes I can. 

The tendency to bite absolutely has a genetic component. Some dogs were selected and bred *to* bite, including our own GSD. What do you think all that protection work is about?

Terriers and other hunting dogs have to be ready and willing to bite--in some cases, they are hunting dangerous prey and in some cases, they are required to kill it themselves. Do you think anyone has to "train" a terrier to kill rats? No. The chase/bite/kill instinct is selected for, and is hard-wired.

There are statistics that bear this out.

A chow has a greater tendency to bite than a Golden. Ask anyone in the professional pet care field. Sure, on an odd day you might have a nice Chow (I'm sure they must exist) and a mean Golden, but that's where the individual dog factors in.


----------



## llombardo

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Oh dear!


Imagine our faces when a 130 pound dog went for my dogs neck...the trainer was on it quickly, so no serious damage and I'm very thankful for that The trainer was very surprised that the dog did this, so I will say that its probably not the norm.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

msvette2u said:


> Actually yes, the studies they've done have proven some dogs are more prone to biting humans than other breeds.
> By saying "lower threshold" for biting, yes that is entirely correct.
> 
> In fact...Leonbergers (we have one in rescue right now) are bred so their temperament is such that small kids can literally climb on and maul them. It's in their breed standard!
> 
> Dachshunds, on the other hand, don't have a high threshold/tolerance for kids and will bite them for far fewer transgressions, such as even being near, or running around near them.
> 
> But, having been bred to actually go underground and KILL badgers - not just hunt them, but literally kill them in their holes - a low bite threshold is a lifesaver for that breed. You grab them wrong (for instance to keep them from doing something) and you'll get nailed, because that is a survival instinct in them.
> I'd say that's a "genetically lower bite threshold" if there ever was one.


Oh yeah, I saw one study that put doxies at the top of the list for biting people. The poster just mentioned biting in her response so I took that in the general sense as she didn't say "bite people."


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

Freestep said:


> Um... yes I can.
> 
> The tendency to bite absolutely has a genetic component. Some dogs were selected and bred *to* bite, including our own GSD. What do you think all that protection work is about?
> 
> Terriers and other hunting dogs have to be ready and willing to bite--in some cases, they are hunting dangerous prey and in some cases, they are required to kill it themselves. Do you think anyone has to "train" a terrier to kill rats? No. The chase/bite/kill instinct is selected for, and is hard-wired.
> 
> There are statistics that bear this out.
> 
> A chow has a greater tendency to bite than a Golden. Ask anyone in the professional pet care field. Sure, on an odd day you might have a nice Chow (I'm sure they must exist) and a mean Golden, but that's where the individual dog factors in.



lol, err...I own two breeds bred for biting people. Again, the poster just mentioned biting, not what they are biting.


----------



## GsdLoverr729

llombardo said:


> Imagine our faces when a 130 pound dog went for my dogs neck...the trainer was on it quickly, so no serious damage and I'm very thankful for that The trainer was very surprised that the dog did this, so I will say that its probably not the norm.


 Well, I'm glad to hear your furbaby is alright!


----------



## Freestep

MustLoveGSDs said:


> lol, err...I own two breeds bred for biting people.


So do I... what's your point?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

You're speaking to me like I was unaware of that....


----------



## codmaster

Gharrissc said:


> I don't think it's breed predujice to say that *certain breeds of dogs shouldn't be in certain people's homes*. That's what a lot of people have said in this thread. I'm not against the dog breeds mentioned, I am against them being in the wrong hands,well intentioned hands or not.


 
Very true about certain INDIVIDUAL dogs not breeds!

Specific dogs within the same breed are VERY different personalities and must be treated as such.

Some breeds are more likely to have individuals that display certain temperaments but we cannot paint an entire breed the same.

We have a Golden Retriever in our neighborhood who is a real PITA - both people and dog aggressive! Yet what is the BREED's reputation?

OTOH, we have a huge Pit Bull in our obedience club who is the sweetest dog both to other dogs and esp. to ALL people that she meets.

And of course - SOME people shouldn't have ANY dog no matter the breed!


----------



## selzer

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Just wow at some of the comments in this thread in support of BSL. You sound really ridiculous coming from owners/lovers of a breed used to bite and attack people every day.
> 
> BSL is a very slippery slope and German Shepherds are on dangerous dog lists!! Some of these comments are just unbelievable to me as an advocate against BSL. Its one thing to have an opinion, its another to fear monger what you personally have no experience with. When it comes to BSL....United we stand, divided we fall.


I read a couple of posts in this entire threads, that suggested that ownership of this breed have limitations. But most of the people on here are not in any way suggesting BSL. 

I agree that not everyone is right for this breed. Not everyone is right for the GSD. But, I certainly do not want the government to make that determination.

I think that you have to look at populations and compare them to the attack numbers. You just can't say that more GSDs have bitten people then Presa's. There maybe 600,000 GSDs in the country and only 3,000 Presas. (These numbers are totally just drawn out of the air, just for comparison.) If you take these numbers and say that over a 10 year period, GSDs are responsible for 5 deaths, and Presas are responsible for 2 deaths, then you can also say that GSDs are much less prone to actually kill someone. 

GSDs rarely kill people. An infant may die from a GSD or small child. But it is very rare, and in those incidents, one might even say that some of them were simply an accident. The GSD bitch heard the infant crying, and picked it up and brought it to the mother. Unfortunately the baby died. If you have had a GSD bitch who has had pups, you will understand that they are extreme mothers. The moment they hear their puppy make a sound, they are on top of it, cleaning it, feeding it, making sure it is not in trouble. These same bitches will be very alert to a human infant crying. The bitch when the pup is born is rather rough with them, cleaning them moving them around, until they squeel, but after that, they are incredibly careful with their pups, they can lift them and carry them, they jump in and out of the box, always 100% conscious of where each puppy is. So for that bitch to actually kill that infant, I find that a little hard to stomach, but a human child cannot be lifted and carried like a puppy. I still mark that as an accident, but it would be considered one of the deaths due to GSDs.

Generally, unless a GSD is taught to continue to bite, bite, bite, until the owner gives them a command to stop, the GSD is unlikely to do so. Far more common are the bites when the GSD comes from behind and nips the leg or but as the threatening (to them) person is going away, or jogging, etc. This is certainly not a mark of good character, and it can lead to an ER visit, but it is not the same as a mauling. GSDs very rarely maul. And therefore, they very rarely kill.

Other breeds do have a trait that causes them to keep going like the energizer bunny. They are more likely to continue to attack. These dogs are more dangerous.


----------



## selzer

Anubis_Star said:


> When you really look at it, for all intensive purposes german shepherds were NOT bred to be "herding" dogs. They were bred to be versatile working dogs. Max Von Stephanitz himself 'created' schutzhund as a way to test breeding stock, no herding involved. And Max himself approached the German army about using German Shepherds.


Actually, Max chose a sheep herding dog common to that are of Germany and named him as the first Sieger. He bought other bitches and bred the dog, and sheep herding was the main thing that the breed did and was supposed to do. 

It was after the breed was established that Max realized that herding dogs would not be as needed and looked into other venues for his intelligent working dog. Having been a soldier, he recognized that the traits his dogs possessed could be utilized by the service. He tried to do that and was turned down at first, and he went to police. By WW1 the dogs were used for war. The dogs have had much success, but to suggest that the dogs aren't herding dogs is a bit ridiculous. Also, schutzhund was created to test a dog's courage, etc., but it was created after the breed was established. 

In many places dogs were used to move sheep and other dogs were used to guard the flock. Flock guardians, and smalling herding breeds meant two dogs. Max wanted a dog that could both guard the sheep against predators, and move (herd) the sheep. He wanted the dog to be able to work the farm, play with the children, and guard the property at night. He put dogs together to achieve this goal. I really think war-dogs and police dogs was an after thought.


----------



## wolfy dog

bocron said:


> I hate to stereotype, but in many cases it seems like the owner secretly wants a scary dog and is only seeking out help because another family member is pressuring them to do something. Almost every one of them quits training after a lesson or 2. They realize how much work is ahead of them and just decide to keep the dog "contained". After a while this becomes an issue and the dog ends up in rescue. This is my worry about the molossers and rescue.


Fully agree. In many or actually most situations where I get called to help with a human aggressive dog, I can feel the secret pride of the owner. One time a Malamute had repeatedly bitten the wife and her husband said proudly,"She never does that with me, I am the Alpha". When he refused to get the dog away from me to keep me safe after two warnings from me, I told him that he could contact another trainer who he would respect better and I left. 
These people and their dogs are dangerous.


----------



## Gharrissc

LOLOL so the guy claims he was the 'alpha',but then he couldn't get his dog away from you? Classic.





wolfy dog said:


> Fully agree. In many or actually most situations where I get called to help with a human aggressive dog, I can feel the secret pride of the owner. One time a Malamute had repeatedly bitten the wife and her husband said proudly,"She never does that with me, I am the Alpha". When he refused to get the dog away from me to keep me safe after two warnings from me, I told him that he could contact another trainer who he would respect better and I left.
> These people and their dogs are dangerous.


----------



## msvette2u

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Oh yeah, I saw one study that put doxies at the top of the list for biting people. The poster just mentioned biting in her response so I took that in the general sense as she didn't say "bite people."


Oh, trust me, they are known for biting other dogs, too, and are famous for having a "hair trigger". Just this AM two of my dogs got in a tiff as it was close to breakfast (meal times are stressful just because of the anticipation of food) and one was in a bed and guarded it a bit from another. The other has a horrendous hair trigger and boom they were in it. But it was over as soon as it started. 

My point being - some breeds are quite prone to biting, and other breeds are genetically wired to fight other dogs, as well. Terriers of all sorts are in that category - being hunting dogs they act first and think later, if at all.
Dachshunds are temperamentally like terriers, in that they are hunters, and have to have lightening fast reflexes.

There's certainly many breeds I'd trust with children more quickly than others.


----------



## Gharrissc

Another thing I thought about was I wonder how many landlords will further enforce their no pet or certain breeds/weight policies because of this?


----------



## selzer

I think it is unfair to think that the deceased wanted dogs that were dangerous due to some macho thing. I don't know that anyone is saying that. She may have chose to rescue the breeds she did because where she is located, those are the dogs that have the toughest time being adopted. I have never seen a Presa around here, but pitties are all over and through the shelter, etc.

I think that there are people who have these dogs that want a _bad _dog to look macho or for protection, and they often deliberately choose not to socialize or to encourage aggression. They wake up one day and realize their dog is too much for them or their situation and they dump the dog. 

The dog lands in a shelter or rescue for someone with a big heart and a lot of nerve to try and sort out.


----------



## Jo Ellen

selzer said:


> Actually, Max chose a sheep herding dog common to that are of Germany and named him as the first Sieger. He bought other bitches and bred the dog, and sheep herding was the main thing that the breed did and was supposed to do.
> 
> It was after the breed was established that Max realized that herding dogs would not be as needed and looked into other venues for his intelligent working dog. Having been a soldier, he recognized that the traits his dogs possessed could be utilized by the service. He tried to do that and was turned down at first, and he went to police. By WW1 the dogs were used for war. The dogs have had much success, but to suggest that the dogs aren't herding dogs is a bit ridiculous. Also, schutzhund was created to test a dog's courage, etc., but it was created after the breed was established.
> 
> In many places dogs were used to move sheep and other dogs were used to guard the flock. Flock guardians, and smalling herding breeds meant two dogs. Max wanted a dog that could both guard the sheep against predators, and move (herd) the sheep. He wanted the dog to be able to work the farm, play with the children, and guard the property at night. He put dogs together to achieve this goal. I really think war-dogs and police dogs was an after thought.


Fascinating, thank you for that history


----------



## Freestep

mustlovegsds said:


> you're speaking to me like i was unaware of that....





mustlovegsds said:


> _you can't pin point certain breeds biting more than others._


_???_


----------



## selzer

This is kind of interesting, I found it here, http://www.petyak.com/dogs/dog-training/what-type-of-dogs-bite-the-most.aspx:
*The Dangers of Dog Bites*

Dog bites can range in severity from a small knick that tears the skin to a fatal mauling. While dogs should never bite people, the incidents most people are concerned with are the ones that do significant damage to the victim. They may be sent to the hospital, need reconstructive surgery, or worse.

The list below is based on data compiled from dog bite accounts reported in the press between 1982 and 2006 in the United States and Canada by Merritt Clifton, editor of Anima People, a non-profit website that promotes awareness of animal issues around the globe. Press reports focus on serious dog bites, so the statistics include only attacks that caused serious injuries requiring medical attention. Also, Clifton left out reports including dogs without a known breed. The statistics included a total of 2,209 incidents.

*10. Labradors – 26 cases*
Most of us would not think of Labradors as dangerous, yet they were involved in more than two dozen serious biting incidents. In one reported case, however, the attacking dog had rabies which might explain his aggressive behavior.

*9. Presa Canario – 30 cases*
These Mastiff-like dogs originated in the Canary Islands and have slowly been emerging in other parts of the world, although they are banned in Australia. The breed is considered rare which is important to mention when comparing its number of attacks with other breeds on the list. If they were as common as Labradors, for example, they may have ended up at a higher spot.

*8. German Shepherd mixes and Boxers – 31 cases*
Both of these powerful dogs are more common than the Presa Canario, plus they are often used for protection. Mixed versions of German Shepherds may also include other breeds with tendencies towards aggression.

7*. Huskies and Pit Bull/Rottweiler mixes – 39 cases*
Pit Bull/Rottweiler mixes can be a dangerous combination because the resulting dog is extremely powerful and usually large. If it attacks, it is going to do significant damage to the victim. Huskies do maintain a lot of their wolf-like ancestry which can make them difficult to control.

*6. Akita – 48 cases*
The Akita is powerful and that’s why its bites land so many of its victims in the hospital. Combine that power with a tendency towards territorial behavior, and you can see why some countries have banned the breed altogether. Interestingly, this dog is also not good with other dogs.

*5. Chow – 49 cases*
Chows who have been well-trained and well-socialized do not have a tendency towards aggression, but they can be a bit protective of their environment. Although they look like big teddy bears, this breed has been known to cause serious damage to humans as a result of bites.

*4. German Shepherds – 63 cases*
Higher in the list, we saw German Shepherd mixes so it’s not surprising that the purebred version should be closer to the top. Despite appearances, most German Shepherd attacks are a result of attack training and not an aggressive streak within the breed.

*3. Wolf Hybrids – 71 cases*
Although not technically a dog, wolf hybrids are a type of mixed breed animal often kept as a pet. As the name suggests, they are created by mating a wolf with some type of dog, usually Nordic breeds (including Huskies). While the number of these dogs kept as pets is relatively small, they are responsible for a significant number of serious attacks against humans.

*2. Rottweilers – 409 cases*
The Rottweiler accounts for about one-fifth of all the attacks included in the study. Part of their ranking has to do with the popularity of the dog but its use for protection plays a role. These dogs are powerful so their bite will do a lot more damage than a Labrador.

*1. Pit Bulls – 1,110 cases*
The top spot goes, of course, to the pit bull which has a reputation for being dangerous and aggressive. This breed accounted for almost half of all the serious dog attacks that showed up in the media during that 14 year period. While some people blame the breed itself, some pit bulls are loyal, well-behaved, and gentle. However, if they decide to attack, their bite is extremely powerful, and they do not let go easily thus making the situation dangerous.


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## selzer

Considering how popular GSDs and Pitts are, I am not surprised to see them high on the list. These are only serious bites requiring medical attention, and yes, there is always the possibility that the pitties are being blamed for bites by a number of dog breeds in that category. 

Now I need to find statistics on the populations of GSDs and Presas and pitts if that is even possible.


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## GsdLoverr729

selzer said:


> Considering how popular GSDs and Pitts are, I am not surprised to see them high on the list. These are only serious bites requiring medical attention, and yes,* there is always the possibility that the pitties are being blamed for bites by a number of dog breeds in that category. *
> 
> Now I need to find statistics on the populations of GSDs and Presas and pitts if that is even possible.


 That is why I don't stats made by the media nearly as seriously. I've often seen American bulldogs, presas, dogo argentinos, staffordshire terriers, cane corsos, and other such dogs pinned as pits. I've even seen a couple of boxer mixes confused for pits in the case of a bite. 
Interesting statistics, though. I wish they included minor bites!


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## KentuckyGSDLover

The story is extremely sad. This young woman lost her life, all the dogs lost their lives. The thought "and three make a pack" comes to mind. 

People do not like to look at breed, but statistics are statistics and the combination this young woman had was a disaster waiting to happen, especially since all were rescues. 

The GSD, though a powerful dog and sometimes prone to defend or bite, is differentiated in some major ways. First, they very seldom bite or attack without warning. If you look over stats, in every case of a GSD bite, they gave some kind of warning first. Even my FA GSD is *predictable*. Also, considering GSD are the most popular dog in the U.S., with estimates of them or a mix of them accounting for up to 24% of all dogs, in ratio they have a very small human kill rate. While I'm not for "banning" breeds in general, I also do not pretend that how you treat some breeds is going to make a whole lot of difference. It is KNOWN that some particular breeds are unpredictable and are more prone to attack even their own owners, despite being raised from puppies by them and treated well, quite out of the blue. The GSD is NOT known for this.


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## Gharrissc

This whole case reminds me of a friend of mine who is a very nice woman,but is waayyyyyyyyyyy over her head with 4 Pit Bulls in her house. She and her husband had two,and then the wife wanted to breed them because they were 'pretty' and 'she could find good homes for them'. Well she did find good home for the puppies and stays in contact with the families,but she kept holding on to the last two puppies in the litter and now they are almost a year old. Lately they've been having issues with between all of the dogs fighting,and it's getting worse.

The husband is pretty much fed up because he wanted to place these puppies when they were actually puppies,but now the wife is attached and won't admit that there is the potential for something serious to happen. 

I've even talked to her over lunch one day and she got furious with me and left the restaurant. All she could say was 'It's how they are raised', which is unfortunately no longer entirely true. She has already had an incident with one of her neighbors being cornered and packed up on by all 4 dogs in the street,and was cited for it. 

Don't get me wrong, she loves all of her dogs, and takes excellent care of them,but she is missing some serious warning signs that everyone else sees. 
She feels that just because the dogs live in a nice house and are spoiled, that nothing will happen. I hope she's right.


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## selzer

GsdLoverr729 said:


> That is why I don't stats made by the media nearly as seriously. I've often seen American bulldogs, presas, dogo argentinos, staffordshire terriers, cane corsos, and other such dogs pinned as pits. I've even seen a couple of boxer mixes confused for pits in the case of a bite.
> Interesting statistics, though. I wish they included minor bites!


The same is true of GSDs. If it has pointy ears and a tail it's a GSD. 

But this study left out the attacks where they breed was unknown, and had a separate line item for pitt-mixes and shepherd mixes. 

Still, someone is reporting it, and they may not be clear.

Evenso, taking into consider a certain percentage for mistaken identity, and it still seems pretty clear that the Pit bull is significantly more dangerous than a GSD, if you figure they are both very popular breeds. That Presa's made that list is significant as they are not so popular. I wish there were numbers though on that, even questionable numbers.


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## GsdLoverr729

selzer said:


> The same is true of GSDs. If it has pointy ears and a tail it's a GSD.
> 
> But this study left out the attacks where they breed was unknown, and had a separate line item for pitt-mixes and shepherd mixes.
> 
> Still, someone is reporting it, and they may not be clear.
> 
> Evenso, taking into consider a certain percentage for mistaken identity, and it still seems pretty clear that the Pit bull is significantly more dangerous than a GSD, if you figure they are both very popular breeds. That Presa's made that list is significant as they are not so popular. I wish there were numbers though on that, even questionable numbers.


 Very, very true.


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## Jo Ellen

> 4. German Shepherds – 63 cases
> Higher in the list, we saw German Shepherd mixes so it’s not surprising that the purebred version should be closer to the top. Despite appearances, most German Shepherd attacks are a result of attack training and not an aggressive streak within the breed.


Happy to read this!

The last time I was researching the number of pitbulls for determining fatal bite ratio ... I think I read that there are something like 10 million, purebred and mixes. But don't quote me on that. Seems too large, but who knows. I live in a small world myself


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## MustLoveGSDs

Freestep said:


> _???_


SMH, forget it.


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## selzer

Gharrissc said:


> This whole case reminds me of a friend of mine who is a very nice woman,but is waayyyyyyyyyyy over her head with 4 Pit Bulls in her house. She and her husband had two,and then the wife wanted to breed them because they were 'pretty' and 'she could find good homes for them'. Well she did find good home for the puppies and stays in contact with the families,but she kept holding on to the last two puppies in the litter and now they are almost a year old. Lately they've been having issues with between all of the dogs fighting,and it's getting worse.
> 
> The husband is pretty much fed up because he wanted to place these puppies when they were actually puppies,but now the wife is attached and won't admit that there is the potential for something serious to happen.
> 
> I've even talked to her over lunch one day and she got furious with me and left the restaurant. All she could say was 'It's how they are raised', which is unfortunately no longer entirely true. She has already had an incident with one of her neighbors being cornered and packed up on by all 4 dogs in the street,and was cited for it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, she loves all of her dogs, and takes excellent care of them,but she is missing some serious warning signs that everyone else sees.
> She feels that just because the dogs live in a nice house and are spoiled, that nothing will happen. I hope she's right.


Sometimes when we view dogs as children-substitutes, we have other behaviors, such as the ability to deny what is crystal clear. This is a scary situation, particularly because there has been an incident. I hope no one was injured.

Every day that goes by you get more and more attached too, and it gets harder and harder to rehome. 

If this woman was willing to see the situation for what it is, she could manage her dogs without rehoming any of them but by putting some safe-guards in place. First off, dogs do not NEED to be with the family 100% of the time. If she built a couple of kennels in her basement or garage, or even within the fenced yard, she could let 2 dogs out at a time, and reduce the possibility of problems 100 fold. With each dog having a secure and comfortable kennel, she could put the dogs in their kennels when the family is out, and that would nearly eliminate any possibility of the dogs running amok while they are not home. That and taking each dog, individually to training once a week, and she could have her dogs, her home, and reduce the risks of anyone having problems.

The problem with pet owners is they believe pets deserve to be equal family members to their human counterparts. Well, they are not equal. Sorry. They are not expected to get their butts out of bed and go to work and provide for the family unit. They do not need to sleep on the beds/couches and roam at will the entire house and grounds all day long. 

(Yes, I do let a dog sleep on my bed, and the couch is not off limits.)

If this woman wasn't afflicted with denial, she could make the changes necessary to keep everyone safe, including her beloved dogs.

But the kid for which this post was created, sorry, that combination of dogs, what 23 year old, vet tech/whatever, can afford to build secure and comfortable kennels for five large, strong dogs. And where would you put them in an apartment? A pit bull is like a flyweight or light weight, where a Presa is like a heavyweight. Twice the weight, muscle, etc, and it is no wonder these dogs are capable of taking out an adult human who is not weak. I do not feel like any of my GSDs could take me out, sorry. I might get bit a few times, but in a fight, I would win. (None of my current lot would EVER bite me intentionally -- puppies don't count.) I don't think the same is true with a Presa. They are almost twice the size of my girls, and their temperament would be such that they wouldn't stop.


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## codmaster

Those of you who blame a breed for bad behavior of some of their members - do the same thing for humans? It's called stereotyping, BTW!

And just as useless and stupid in dog breeds as it is in human groups! Now, do some breeds of dogs have a tendency and more common traits that are different than others, OF COURSE! If you wanted a dog to do bird hunting, you wouldn't choose a GSD probably. If you wanted a guard dog, you wouldn't choose a Golden.

But to label an entire breed as DA or worse people aggressive is ridiculous! BTW, I wouldn't pick a pit bull as a guard dog either - as all of the ones I have met have been very human friendly.

ESP from a group who owns a breed that is commonly labeled from a stereotype.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> Sometimes when we view dogs as children-substitutes, we have other behaviors, such as the ability to deny what is crystal clear. This is a scary situation, particularly because there has been an incident. I hope no one was injured.
> 
> Every day that goes by you get more and more attached too, and it gets harder and harder to rehome.
> 
> If this woman was willing to see the situation for what it is, she could manage her dogs without rehoming any of them but by putting some safe-guards in place. First off, dogs do not NEED to be with the family 100% of the time. If she built a couple of kennels in her basement or garage, or even within the fenced yard, she could let 2 dogs out at a time, and reduce the possibility of problems 100 fold. With each dog having a secure and comfortable kennel, she could put the dogs in their kennels when the family is out, and that would nearly eliminate any possibility of the dogs running amok while they are not home. That and taking each dog, individually to training once a week, and she could have her dogs, her home, and reduce the risks of anyone having problems.
> 
> The problem with pet owners is they believe pets deserve to be equal family members to their human counterparts. Well, they are not equal. Sorry. They are not expected to get their butts out of bed and go to work and provide for the family unit. They do not need to sleep on the beds/couches and roam at will the entire house and grounds all day long.
> 
> (Yes, I do let a dog sleep on my bed, and the couch is not off limits.)
> 
> If this woman wasn't afflicted with denial, she could make the changes necessary to keep everyone safe, including her beloved dogs.
> 
> But the kid for which this post was created, sorry, that combination of dogs, what 23 year old, vet tech/whatever, can afford to build secure and comfortable kennels for five large, strong dogs. And where would you put them in an apartment? A pit bull is like a flyweight or light weight, where a Presa is like a heavyweight. Twice the weight, muscle, etc, and it is no wonder these dogs are capable of taking out an adult human who is not weak. *I do not feel like any of my GSDs could take me out, sorry.* I might get bit a few times, but in a fight, I would win. (None of my current lot would EVER bite me intentionally -- puppies don't count.) I don't think the same is true with a Presa. They are almost twice the size of my girls, and their temperament would be such that they wouldn't stop.


 
I think that is great that you can take your GSD's, but i certainly hope that you never ever have to face a true K9 GSD. I saw a few while in the military that scared the h$#$ out of me!

And mave someone have mercy on your soul if you ever have to face a determined pit bull! FAST dog! They can take a lot of MUCH bigger dogs! Much to the sorrow of the breed!


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## Gharrissc

I've suggested the kennels,and even helped her choose some areas in her fenced yard for them,but then she starts making all of these excuses about how the dogs want to be inside when they are home,etc. Her husband is open to anything,but now it's gotten to the point that he really doesn't even want to deal with the dogs at all because of his wife's short fuse about it. 

The dogs have crates,but she will 'feel sorry' for them and let them all out together even though she knows how it causes fights. To add insult to injury she insists on leaving high value items such as pig ears and tennis balls out all over the place. Her 6 year old male is extremely possessive of all of these items and drives himself crazy trying to guard them all from the other dogs. 

I always make my visits short because the dogs are always climbing all over you on the couch and you can't even have a conversation or watch television because of the constant squabbles. You can really feel the tension from her husband when he's trying to relax in the evening and she won't make the dogs listen or at least put them in the crate or outside. The 4 dogs sleep in bed with her and the husband has moved to another bedroom because the 6 year old male dog started challenging him when he tried to get in bed. Of course she thinks it's 'cute'.





selzer said:


> If this woman was willing to see the situation for what it is, she could manage her dogs without rehoming any of them but by putting some safe-guards in place. First off, dogs do not NEED to be with the family 100% of the time. If she built a couple of kennels in her basement or garage, or even within the fenced yard, she could let 2 dogs out at a time, and reduce the possibility of problems 100 fold. With each dog having a secure and comfortable kennel, she could put the dogs in their kennels when the family is out, and that would nearly eliminate any possibility of the dogs running amok while they are not home. That and taking each dog, individually to training once a week, and she could have her dogs, her home, and reduce the risks of anyone having problems.
> 
> The problem with pet owners is they believe pets deserve to be equal family members to their human counterparts. Well, they are not equal. Sorry. They are not expected to get their butts out of bed and go to work and provide for the family unit. They do not need to sleep on the beds/couches and roam at will the entire house and grounds all day long.
> 
> (Yes, I do let a dog sleep on my bed, and the couch is not off limits.)
> 
> If this woman wasn't afflicted with denial, she could make the changes necessary to keep everyone safe, including her beloved dogs.


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## selzer

The presa was created as a cattle guardian, and it was used for dog fighting. It is like a pit bull with twice the size/weight/power, but also with the guarding aspect. Some breeds of dogs do require more knowledge and strength of personality on the part of the owner than others. If stereotyping breeds will make some people think twice before adding one, if it possibly saves a life, then who cares. It is not the same as racism, sorry. We are not talking about human beings here. We are talking about dogs, and what traits they have and what traits they were originally bred for, and what the liklihood it is for one of them to get into trouble in the wrong hands.


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## selzer

Gharrissc said:


> I've suggested the kennels,and even helped her choose some areas in her fenced yard for them,but then she starts making all of these excuses about how the dogs want to be inside when they are home,etc. Her husband is open to anything,but now it's gotten to the point that he really doesn't even want to deal with the dogs at all because of his wife's short fuse about it.
> 
> The dogs have crates,but she will 'feel sorry' for them and let them all out together even though she knows how it causes fights. To add insult to injury she insists on leaving high value items such as pig ears and tennis balls out all over the place. Her 6 year old male is extremely possessive of all of these items and drives himself crazy trying to guard them all from the other dogs.
> 
> I always make my visits short because the dogs are always climbing all over you on the couch and you can't even have a conversation or watch television because of the constant squabbles. You can really feel the tension from her husband when he's trying to relax in the evening and she won't make the dogs listen or at least put them in the crate or outside. The 4 dogs sleep in bed with her and the husband has moved to another bedroom because the 6 year old male dog started challenging him when he tried to get in bed. Of course she thinks it's 'cute'.


Frankly, if this person invited me to her home, I would decline and tell her point blank that I just cannot deal with your dogs, sorry.


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## Freestep

codmaster said:


> But to label an entire breed as DA or worse people aggressive is ridiculous!


I don't think anyone is saying "every single Pit Bull (or GSD, or Chow, or whatever) is aggressive."

Of course there are individual dogs that are different from the breed tendency as a whole. I don't think anyone disputes that.

But stereotypes exist for a reason.

I don't groom Chows at my shop. Yes, I'm stereotyping. Almost every Chow I've ever met is a biter. Although I am sure there are individuals that don't bite (and every single Chow owner says THEIR dog is the one that doesn't), I'd rather not take the chance.


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## GsdLoverr729

selzer said:


> Frankly, if this person invited me to her home, I would decline and tell her point blank that I just cannot deal with your dogs, sorry.


 :thumbup: If only everyone was so blunt lol!!!


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## bocron

selzer said:


> I think it is unfair to think that the deceased wanted dogs that were dangerous due to some macho thing. I don't know that anyone is saying that. She may have chose to rescue the breeds she did because where she is located, those are the dogs that have the toughest time being adopted. .


What I see is like I said in my earlier post. Many people(not all!) get these breeds because of the perception of what the breed is (tough, protective, scary) so therefore the owner IS generally pretty proud of their dog that they have trouble controlling. Many of these are what eventually end up in rescue (this is what we see, we try to follow up with clients with this type of issue and a majority of them seem to have "gotten rid" of the dog within the year). 
Then on the opposite end of the spectrum are the people who have a desire to rescue this type of dog. In my experience, they are extremely well intentioned and hope to show the world that the dog just had a bad start and can be turned around. That we are all blaming the wrong end of the leash and EVERY dog deserves another chance. My issue is just like happened in the case in the OP, many of these people end up with a large group of rescues, some they've adopted, some are fosters, etc. But they get complacent and forget what the dogs can do and that they don't really know what that dog's background really is and how it will react if they ever really thought they had to fight for their life. 
I have 2-3 regulars in my daycare that are pit mixes or that type. I have been keeping them long enough that I trust them in the pack and even use them to introduce new dogs into the group. But these are dogs I've watched and worked with for a long time. Even so, I always keep an eye on them when something odd happens in the group.


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## Anubis_Star

selzer said:


> Actually, Max chose a sheep herding dog common to that are of Germany and named him as the first Sieger. He bought other bitches and bred the dog, and sheep herding was the main thing that the breed did and was supposed to do.
> 
> It was after the breed was established that Max realized that herding dogs would not be as needed and looked into other venues for his intelligent working dog. Having been a soldier, he recognized that the traits his dogs possessed could be utilized by the service. He tried to do that and was turned down at first, and he went to police. By WW1 the dogs were used for war. The dogs have had much success, but to suggest that the dogs aren't herding dogs is a bit ridiculous. Also, schutzhund was created to test a dog's courage, etc., but it was created after the breed was established.
> 
> In many places dogs were used to move sheep and other dogs were used to guard the flock. Flock guardians, and smalling herding breeds meant two dogs. Max wanted a dog that could both guard the sheep against predators, and move (herd) the sheep. He wanted the dog to be able to work the farm, play with the children, and guard the property at night. He put dogs together to achieve this goal. I really think war-dogs and police dogs was an after thought.


I was simply suggesting that IMHO, I do NOT believe they should be "categorized" as a herding breed. Max knew early on herding was becoming "a thing of the past", and overall wanted a versatile WORKING breed, a breed capable of doing it all. The time frame when they were bred with "herding" in mind was probably not even 10 years, since Horrand was titled as the first Sieger through the SV in 1899 and the first truly trained "police dogs" were being produced in the 1890s that were forming Max's opinions on the future. Horand was chosen for his temperament, intelligence, working ability, stability, the whole package. The fact that many of the first stock came from herding dogs can be attested to their extreme intelligence. But I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest the breed quickly veered away 

Max DID establish Schutzhund as a way to prove breeding stock, a testament that I believe shows his true breeding goals. A dog must have a Schutzhund title (or yes, herding title), before being ranked higher then an SG in the SV. However to get a VA title they must have a Schutzhund 2 or higher title. Although nothing more then a sport at this point in time, it had true merit back in the day.

I think there is a HUGE difference between german shepherds and other herding breeds, such as collies, catteldogs, sheepdogs, etc...

I think they would be much better categorized in the WORKING category.


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## Anubis_Star

bocron said:


> Sorry, just had to correct this. The phrase is intents and purposes, meaning just what is says. The intent and the purpose of a given thing.


Lol thank you, I was working a 12 hour grave at the clinic last night, when 3-4 am hits I have learned that I really am NOT allowed to type on the internet, or to any other intelligent life form for that matter. Especially after a 3 hour binge on reddit.com.


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## bocron

I'll give you what I know about the deceased. Loving Hands Animal Hospital is just up the road from me and is across the street from the dog food store where we get all of our food. A number of my clients go to that animal hospital and knew her (not best buddies or anything). Anyway, a bunch of us in the park were talking about this yesterday and all the people that knew her from the vet's place said she was an absolute doll and was totally devoted to rescue. The general consensus was that the dog she was babysitting kind of just tipped the scale in terms of what was going to work in her situation. Very sad all the way around, that it is always someone trying to help that seems to get caught. 
This reminds me of a case a year or 2 ago of a couple who used to feed the stray and feral dogs that were prevalent in their area in a rural part of Georgia. The couple (in their 60s or maybe 70s) didn't show up for church and didn't answer the phone so some friends went in search of them. They found them both dead in the area where they went to feed the dogs. The husband was in the area and the wife was a 100 yards or so away. The cause of death was dog bites. They think that something in the feeding sparked a fight and the husband tried to stop it and got attacked, the wife tried to get away, maybe to get help and they caught her as well. So sad, they had been doing this for years and never had an issue.


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## bocron

Anubis_Star said:


> . Especially after a 3 hour binge on reddit.com.


LOL, I'm with you. Don't even get me started on reddit!


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## selzer

Anubis_Star said:


> I was simply suggesting that IMHO, I do NOT believe they should be "categorized" as a herding breed. Max knew early on herding was becoming "a thing of the past", and overall wanted a versatile WORKING breed, a breed capable of doing it all. The time frame when they were bred with "herding" in mind was probably not even 10 years, since Horrand was titled as the first Sieger through the SV in 1899 and the first truly trained "police dogs" were being produced in the 1890s that were forming Max's opinions on the future. Horand was chosen for his temperament, intelligence, working ability, stability, the whole package. The fact that many of the first stock came from herding dogs can be attested to their extreme intelligence. But I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest the breed quickly veered away
> 
> Max DID establish Schutzhund as a way to prove breeding stock, a testament that I believe shows his true breeding goals. A dog must have a Schutzhund title (or yes, herding title), before being ranked higher then an SG in the SV. However to get a VA title they must have a Schutzhund 2 or higher title. Although nothing more then a sport at this point in time, it had true merit back in the day.
> 
> I think there is a HUGE difference between german shepherds and other herding breeds, such as collies, catteldogs, sheepdogs, etc...
> 
> I think they would be much better categorized in the WORKING category.


I am curious as to why collies, and other herding breeds? I mean, collies were used as war dogs as well. They can guard and herd sheep. I don't generally see them as police dogs or seeing eye dogs, but they definitely have some good attributes? 

A herding dog is a working dog. I used to think the same thing, that GSDs should be in the working group. But how I see it now is that it doesn't hurt them to be listed with the herding dogs. They can do what working dogs can do, and they have a natural intinct for herding. I have witnessed this. I have watched a GSD put on sheep the very first time and know instinctively what to do. I don't know that a dalmation or a Doberman would do the same.


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## GsdLoverr729

selzer said:


> I am curious as to why collies, and other herding breeds? I mean, collies were used as war dogs as well. They can guard and herd sheep. I don't generally see them as police dogs or seeing eye dogs, but they definitely have some good attributes?
> 
> A herding dog is a working dog. I used to think the same thing, that GSDs should be in the working group. But how I see it now is that it doesn't hurt them to be listed with the herding dogs. *They can do what working dogs can do, and they have a natural intinct for herding. I have witnessed this. I have watched a GSD put on sheep the very first time and know instinctively what to do. I don't know that a dalmation or a Doberman would do the same*.


 This! :thumbup:
My uncle has never actively trained his shepherds to herd, they've all done it on instinct. Even the ones he rescued from bad situations as adults. Dakoda has been herding since she was 8 weeks old. She had no formal training them, either. 
They are working dogs. But first and foremost, they are herders. I mean... German shepHERD  Just look at the meaning of the word shepherd. It's what they were originally for!


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## selzer

Thanks for the info.

This is another reason for this thread. 

People, before leaving your dog with a friend, or acquaintance, consider the situation. It may be easier to leave your dog where it will be loved like a member of the family, but if the family is one dog hair short of insanity, find a boarding kennel or in-home pet sitter.

Some people truly do have a hard time saying no to requests.

Some people don't always have an accurate understanding of their own abilities. 

Your dog does not have to be shy or dominate or have dog-aggression issues to put a pack into turmoil.

Please think before leaving your dog with someone with a pack of dogs. 

I wouldn't dream of doing this. Not unless the person had empty kennels and was intending on using them for my dogs. 



bocron said:


> I'll give you what I know about the deceased. Loving Hands Animal Hospital is just up the road from me and is across the street from the dog food store where we get all of our food. A number of my clients go to that animal hospital and knew her (not best buddies or anything). Anyway, a bunch of us in the park were talking about this yesterday and all the people that knew her from the vet's place said she was an absolute doll and was totally devoted to rescue. The general consensus was that the dog she was babysitting kind of just tipped the scale in terms of what was going to work in her situation. Very sad all the way around, that it is always someone trying to help that seems to get caught.
> This reminds me of a case a year or 2 ago of a couple who used to feed the stray and feral dogs that were prevalent in their area in a rural part of Georgia. The couple (in their 60s or maybe 70s) didn't show up for church and didn't answer the phone so some friends went in search of them. They found them both dead in the area where they went to feed the dogs. The husband was in the area and the wife was a 100 yards or so away. The cause of death was dog bites. They think that something in the feeding sparked a fight and the husband tried to stop it and got attacked, the wife tried to get away, maybe to get help and they caught her as well. So sad, they had been doing this for years and never had an issue.


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## Anubis_Star

bocron said:


> LOL, I'm with you. Don't even get me started on reddit!


What makes it worse, that was my first time on reddit! Can you believe it??? haha


Morning after discovering reddit


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## Anubis_Star

GsdLoverr729 said:


> This! :thumbup:
> My uncle has never actively trained his shepherds to herd, they've all done it on instinct. Even the ones he rescued from bad situations as adults. Dakoda has been herding since she was 8 weeks old. She had no formal training them, either.
> They are working dogs. But first and foremost, they are herders. I mean... German shepHERD  Just look at the meaning of the word shepherd. It's what they were originally for!



I'll still stick by my opinion and the reasons why, as I already posted, but that's what makes opinions wonderful, everyone can have them  At the end of the day, we all love GSDs


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## GsdLoverr729

Anubis_Star said:


> I'll still stick by my opinion and the reasons why, as I already posted, but that's what makes opinions wonderful, everyone can have them  At the end of the day, we all love GSDs


 Agreed


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## Anubis_Star

selzer said:


> I am curious as to why collies, and other herding breeds? I mean, collies were used as war dogs as well. They can guard and herd sheep. I don't generally see them as police dogs or seeing eye dogs, but they definitely have some good attributes?
> 
> A herding dog is a working dog. I used to think the same thing, that GSDs should be in the working group. But how I see it now is that it doesn't hurt them to be listed with the herding dogs. They can do what working dogs can do, and they have a natural intinct for herding. I have witnessed this. I have watched a GSD put on sheep the very first time and know instinctively what to do. I don't know that a dalmation or a Doberman would do the same.


Working in the animal field and with many different breeds of dogs, there is a HUGE difference between, say, the temperament of a working border collie or Australian shepherd and the temperament of a working line shepherd. The biggest one I can think, collies and aussies tend to be much "softer dogs", although of course there is the exception to every rule so don't quote me! lol. Again just my opinion and what I've experienced. 

There have been many labs that are war heroes, and many PD labs as well, but for VERY different reasons. SAR and detection, etc... vs true protection and suspect apprehension. Not all with war titles are the same.


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## Gharrissc

Great info,if you are going to keep other people's dogs in your home, you must not let your guard down. You can't just put a new dog in the pack and totally zone out as if everything is going to be fine. Which is pretty much what you just said. Just my 02.Technically it's really necessary for someone else's dogs to be with your pack anyway. Depending on the situation it may be easier to just separate.




selzer said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> This is another reason for this thread.
> 
> People, before leaving your dog with a friend, or acquaintance, consider the situation. It may be easier to leave your dog where it will be loved like a member of the family, but if the family is one dog hair short of insanity, find a boarding kennel or in-home pet sitter.
> 
> Some people truly do have a hard time saying no to requests.
> 
> Some people don't always have an accurate understanding of their own abilities.
> 
> Your dog does not have to be shy or dominate or have dog-aggression issues to put a pack into turmoil.
> 
> Please think before leaving your dog with someone with a pack of dogs.
> 
> I wouldn't dream of doing this. Not unless the person had empty kennels and was intending on using them for my dogs.


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## selzer

Our village had a lab k9. He gets certified and goes through the protection test I hear. The community was asked to help pay for his ACL injury that happened in training. Our other k9 is a malinois. I would probably put lab and malinois about as far apart as you could go. Our GSD got shot to death years back. 

Any old dog can be trained for different types of police work. I think breeds that have the instinct to herd and were originally created for herding should be in the herding group. Herding is working. It's not every dog that has the athletic ability, endurance, courage, as well as instinct to make an all around herding dog. A boarder collie or Aussie or pyrean shepherd really cannot do the whole job. They aren't really put together to guard as well as to herd. A rough/smooth collie, maybe. 

It sounds like you have police/protection dogs on a higher level than other types of work. I really don't want to go there. I would hate for people to be breeding with police/protection only in mind.


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## selzer

Gharrissc said:


> Great info,if you are going to keep other people's dogs in your home, you must not let your guard down. You can't just put a new dog in the pack and totally zone out as if everything is going to be fine. Which is pretty much what you just said. Just my 02.Technically it's really necessary for someone else's dogs to be with your pack anyway. Depending on the situation it may be easier to just separate.


uhm, I think I was talking about letting your dog be watched by someone who already has their hands full when it comes to dogs, but I agree with your point as well.


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## Gharrissc

So was I.



selzer said:


> uhm, I think I was talking about letting your dog be watched by someone who already has their hands full when it comes to dogs, but I agree with your point as well.


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## sparra

Well here in Australia the Presa Canario is non existent with breeding and importing bans placed on them......and for that I am thankful.....


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## Jo Ellen

sparra said:


> Well here in Australia the Presa Canario is non existent with breeding and importing bans placed on them......and for that I am thankful.....


Are there any other breeds that are banned where you are?


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## sparra

Jo Ellen said:


> Are there any other breeds that are banned where you are?


We have, here in the state of Victoria, restricted dog breeds which include:


American Pit Bull Terrier (or Pit Bull Terrier)
Fila Brasileiro
Japanese Tosa
Dogo Argentino
Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario).
These dogs cannot be registered after September 2010. So if you own one which was born before this date, you are permitted to keep it but it must wear a muzzle at all times when out in public. It is illegal to acquire one after this date.
Really the problem is not with the latter four as no one has them anyway but the controversy does lay with the APBT as they are quite popular.
The laws were tightened after a 4 year old girl was mauled to death in her own home by the neighbours pitbull (and it WAS a pitbull) after it escaped and entered the house killing her while she was watching TV.....very sad.



We also have a dangerous dogs register which is a register based on bite history and not breed so ANY dog can be on this if it has bitten someone.
The GSD is not on any "lists" here......only if it bites someone but then a labrador can be on the "list" too if it has a bite history.


I think most other states are also moving in this direction if they haven't already.


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## chelle

sparra said:


> ....We also have a dangerous dogs register which is a register based on bite history and not breed so ANY dog can be on this if it has bitten someone.
> 
> The GSD is not on any "lists" here......only if it bites someone but then a labrador can be on the "list" too if it has a bite history.
> 
> I think most other states are also moving in this direction if they haven't already.


So the BREED goes on this "bite list" or the actual, specific dog? If it is a register based on a specific dog, I'm all for it.

I am not as hard-core anti-BSL as many are. I'm not for it, but I'm not jumping up and down against it, either. At the same time, though, BSL shouldn't be about kneejerk reactions to one horrible event. When the percentages start stacking up, I start to lean and sway.

The reason I do go anti-BSL is that I believe it is too kneejerk and wouldn't be instituted based on true solid histories. Too much panic, not enough research. In all truth, that is the only reason why I do not support it. We can't own dangerous animals, certain snakes, etc -- for the safety of the public -- so there are some breeds that not just anyone should own either. To take it a step further, I think BSL should be about certain hoops the owners must jump thru to own certain dogs. Obviously this is already happening, though. Some dogs are simply outlawed in certain places and I'd be curious to know what had happened to get to that point. Multiple assaults, injuries, bites? 

People make choices as to the animals they put in their homes, the animals they wish to own and when they make those choices, they accept what comes with it -- fair, right or not.

Sorry to ramble.


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## Jo Ellen

chelle said:


> People make choices as to the animals they put in their homes, the animals they wish to own and when they make those choices, they accept what comes with it -- fair, right or not.


And what if they live in a neighborhood community, I'm in that community and I don't want to live near that dog? Should I have options other than moving?

What about the little girl living in Australia that was in her own home watching TV when a neighbor's pitbull came in and killed her. Did she and her family have any choices?


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## Gharrissc

That's a good question,but my question for you is if someone did move next to you and you didn't like their breed choice, what would your ideal choices be if there were certain options available. Would you want some sort of Board that residents had to go through in order to move into the neighborhood if they had certain breeds or maybe even all dogs?

BTW my question isn't meant to be argumenative


QUOTE=Jo Ellen;2560485]And what if they live in a neighborhood community, I'm in that community and I don't want to live near that dog? Should I have options other than moving?

What about the little girl living in Australia that was in her own home watching TV when a neighbor's pitbull came in and killed her. Did she and her family have any choices?[/QUOTE]


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## chelle

Jo Ellen said:


> And what if they live in a neighborhood community, I'm in that community and I don't want to live near that dog? Should I have options other than moving?
> 
> What about the little girl living in Australia that was in her own home watching TV when a neighbor's pitbull came in and killed her. Did she and her family have any choices?


I think you may have misunderstood me.

I'm saying that those who choose certain breeds, particularly those under bans or ownership restrictions, (requiring insurance policies, muzzling, etc,) take on the responsibilities imposed by whatever governing bodies put them in place. Many people try to circle these things and generally speaking, I believe the ones who do are the irresponsible ones we are all worried about.


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## chelle

Gharrissc said:


> That's a good question,but my question for you is if someone did move next to you and you didn't like their breed choice, what would your ideal choices be if there were certain options available. Would you want some sort of Board that residents had to go through in order to move into the neighborhood if they had certain breeds or maybe even all dogs?
> 
> BTW my question isn't meant to be argumenative
> 
> I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this question.
> 
> Provided they are taking care of the dog and managing it, following the law, etc - they can legally have whatever dog they wish. Even if were a little white poofy ball, they still must follow leash laws, etc.


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## llombardo

Gharrissc said:


> That's a good question,but my question for you is if someone did move next to you and you didn't like their breed choice, what would your ideal choices be if there were certain options available. Would you want some sort of Board that residents had to go through in order to move into the neighborhood if they had certain breeds or maybe even all dogs?
> 
> BTW my question isn't meant to be argumenative
> 
> 
> QUOTE=Jo Ellen;2560485]And what if they live in a neighborhood community, I'm in that community and I don't want to live near that dog? Should I have options other than moving?
> 
> What about the little girl living in Australia that was in her own home watching TV when a neighbor's pitbull came in and killed her. Did she and her family have any choices?


[/QUOTE]


Sorry to jump in here, but sadly GSD's are on alot of those lists. Its very hard to find a place that allows them if you are renting. And when I do buy a house I certainly do not want to go before anyone for them to tell me that my dog is not allowed based on her breed. I'm investing in my future and if I had to go through that I would not move there. Just my opinion


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## llombardo

I'm actually going through the I wish that dog didn't move in the neighborhood now. The people upstairs just moved and they had a pit bull. She was not taken care of and it broke my heart. She loved most people, but my female did not like her. We had a schedule so they never ran into each other. Now there is a big huge I don't know what kind of dog..its a pit mixed with something else that is very large..This dogs head is huge and he has to weigh a good 120 pounds...lots of muscle. They walk him and he seems calm enough, but I dread running into them with any of my dogs....I guess its time to make some new friends


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## Jo Ellen

Gharrissc said:


> That's a good question,but my question for you is if someone did move next to you and you didn't like their breed choice, what would your ideal choices be if there were certain options available. Would you want some sort of Board that residents had to go through in order to move into the neighborhood if they had certain breeds or maybe even all dogs?


Hmmmm, I can see if that were how it was managed, I would probably not have my own GSD.

On the other hand, I would have such strong sentiments about some breeds, especially the presa, that I would want to be able to seek out some type of support or action from my community. Maybe a neighborhood vote, and if the vote was the dog stays then I would have to make the decision to move. I'd be okay with that because it wouldn't be just one person imposing their rights on another just because they can. The community makes a decision, not one person. 

I still think presas and certain other similar breeds have no business being in a neighborhood with children and other dogs. I would not be opposed to legislation that would keep them away. 

So do I sound like I'm in favor of BSL? I have a sense that I'm not, but it gets blurry when I start thinking about some of these breeds. I guess I'm not sure where I stand  I certainly don't have any answers.


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## sparra

chelle said:


> So the BREED goes on this "bite list" or the actual, specific dog? If it is a register based on a specific dog, I'm all for it.


It is a list of specific dogs but their breed would also be recorded obviously....so regardless of breed if your dog bites someone and it is reported then your dog is on the dangerous dogs list.

This wasn't a knee jerk reaction. There have been *many* cases of pitbulls attacking people and i think this was just the straw that broke the camels back so to speak but just like in the US I am sure often times there is a case of mistaken identity but not in all cases.

I am not really all that fazed about the BSL laws here. I don't see them becoming extreme......some may think it is extreme just to have any but I don't loose any sleep over it.

Just to add.....the whole renting thing must be more of a US issue as I am not aware of people turning down renters because of breeds of dog. Just owning a dog, yes, but not because of a specific breed.
In my single days I rented a few places and owning GSD did not seem to put anyone off....in fact I can't even remember having to state his breed in the first place.


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## llombardo

Jo Ellen said:


> Hmmmm, I can see if that were how it was managed, I would probably not have my own GSD.
> 
> On the other hand, I would have such strong sentiments about some breeds, especially the presa, that I would want to be able to seek out some type of support or action from my community. Maybe a neighborhood vote, and if the vote was the dog stays then I would have to make the decision to move. I'd be okay with that because it wouldn't be just one person imposing their rights on another just because they can. The community makes a decision, not one person.
> 
> I still think presas and certain other similar breeds have no business being in a neighborhood with children and other dogs. I would not be opposed to legislation that would keep them away.
> 
> So do I sound like I'm in favor of BSL? I have a sense that I'm not, but it gets blurry when I start thinking about some of these breeds. I guess I'm not sure where I stand  I certainly don't have any answers.


Most of the breeds that one would "hesitate" to have around can be really good dogs...they have to be in the right hands. I'm not saying that its how they are raised, but the Presa's for example can be very good dogs if they are raised right(with the help of good lines of course) Its not really fair to say that a dog should not be allowed by looks alone
For example..here is the temperament of the Presa... Presas are of strong character and are dominant animals requiring early socialization and obedience training. In *some* situations, the Presa can be aggressive toward other dogs and suspicious of strangers. *Once the dog has been properly socialized and trained, this becomes the exception rather than the rule. Many Presas share their homes with children, other dogs, cats, horses and other farm animals.*
Presas are an intelligent breed and very responsive to an owner who is familiar with large-breed, mastiff or molloser dogs. Due to the natural strength and power of the breed, positive reinforcement is best when training Presa Canarios. During the first two years, the dog should be exercised/walked daily as it is trained to ensure proper bonding with its family and to develop an excellent temperament. After two years, it is common that Presas who are not actively working or game dogs can be very calm, lazy loveable beasts in the family home.


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## pets4life

Zeeva said:


> How sad :c...
> 
> Has anyone ever felt threatened by their dogs?
> 
> I was afraid of Smokey when I first rescued him. I used to keep a 2X4 nearby just in case. But boy was that the inexperience in me...



no never, mine could bite me if she was in pain or something or by mistake but any dog or cat could do that.

my close friend and a long time pp trainer has presas and bandogs 

These are not any harder to own nor do you need anymore experience than owning a working shepherd in some ways these dogs are even easier than owning working shepherds by far. Just a total diff kind of dog with a diff kind of mentality. So for someone like many of us use to high drive shepherds we might be lost with them. But for people use to them our working shepherds seem like a nightmare to them. THey are very sweet calm gentle dogs in the right situation with the right owner. 

My friend looks at my shepherd and syas he will NEVER OWN a dog like her lol he cant stand her drive he loves the calm mastiff type breeds.


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## pets4life

remember mastiff breed people will call our sheps high strung land sharks lol


german shepherds can kill a man in a matter of seconds as well 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-turn-him.html

very sad also


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't have any really close neighbors (thank god!) but I would have no problem with any of them having a breed of dog I may not like or want to live with.

As long as they are responsible owners and their dogs are not roaming the area, I don't really care what they own


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