# Back/Disc problem? Yelps when lifted



## natalie559

Hi group,

Penny's got a new one for me.

At work instead of her jumping into the back of the john deere gator I ask her to put her front feet up on the tailgate and I pick up her rear and shove, for lack of a better word, her into the back.

A couple months ago she yelped when I did it, turning sharply to look at what I had done. Weird I thought as I massaged her leg/back/rear watching for another pain response to know what/where it is hurting. No response. The only time I can get a response is when we do the routine described above where I lift her back end.

She yelped again this week, although I hadn't noticed her yelp in the past few weeks. 

Had her at the vet today for rabies shot and he suggested xrays. He said she would need to be sedated and for the whole everything it would cost $200. 

He hinted at Intervertebral Disc Disease and commented on acupuncture and gold beads.

What are your thoughts or experiences? I have no knowledge in this area.

Thanks!


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## debbiebrown

i would definitely do the x-rays usually a bulging disc will show up. you should know what you are treating before you go doing anything.

a look at the vertibrae through x-rays can tell you how bad the disc issue might be. usually if its present there are other areas that have the potential to blow.

i had a gsd with that problem. he did blow a disc in his neck regian, and it usually will keep happening. they treated him with predisone which is not one of my favorites but that is the usually standard of proceedure. we did get into accupuncture it did not help him, not saying it wouldn't be orth a try since they all react different to different treatments. the chiropractic route worked well for us for maintenence. i also changed the diet added vertr-disc as one of the supplements to nurish the spinal discs. long term i would definitely look at some of those alternatives if in fact that is what it is.

debbie


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## natalie559

Thanks for the reply Debbie.

I scheduled Penny for an xray Thursday afternoon so we will know more then. I also looked into the supplement you mentioned and it is certainly affordable and I will try it if the xrays reveal that we should head in that direction. 

I'm nervous.



> Originally Posted By: debbiebthey treated him with predisone which is not one of my favorites but that is the usually standard of proceedure.


Why can't they use a non steroidal anti inflammatory? 

I have avoided Prednisone like the plague, it would have been such an easy way out for Penny's allergies all this time. I would *hate* to start it now.


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## RebelGSD

Something similar has been happening to one of my dogs over the past 4 years. He yelps when he is picked up to be placed on the table for an exam for example (and there is very rarely a need for it). We cannot find a painful reaction or reproduce this resonse in any other way. It also happened maybe 4 times (that I know of) when he jumped on the bed. Once he had dramatic symptoms (he could not go up the stairs) which completely resolved by the time I got him to the ER. The x-rays at the ER did not show anything conclusive. My regular vet looked at them, nothing. There was no dramatic episode for 4 years now. The vet suggested MRI or myelogram if he keeps having problems and the condition worsens. Since the problems are really minor, I would not risk a myelogram and we have not pursued the MRI either. 
I wish I could be of more help. We have been living with this for years now and, luckily, it did not get worse.


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## natalie559

Thanks Rebel.

We went and and had the xrays done yesterday. We had the hips and lower backed filmed. The vet diagnosed her with the disc disease as evidenced by the narrow gaps in between the vertebrae. 



















He said the spacing on the last disc by her tail is the spacing you want to see and if you compare it to the others you could see how little space the others had in between them. He said they are like ticking time bombs- you never know when one might rupture. Nice huh.

He said the condition would also cause spondylosis in time and that the xrays already showed the arching.

His suggestion was an anti inflammatory medication like derramax for life. I didn't think that stuff was good for life. Penny is only 4 1/2 and her only symptom is described above. 

He commented on the verti disc supplement saying it was using cow proteins (the Bovine Tracheal Cartilage) for dogs and how that might not work so well. Not sure about that.

So he gave me lots to think about and look into. I am curious to look on the net for other xray pictures to compare.


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## WiscTiger

Natalie, before I went with derramax I would try some natural antiinflammatory stuff. 

Plain Knox Gelatin is a good natural Anti-inflammatory. There use to be a link on the Web but it isn't active any more that had a library list of supplements and natural things and what they did and the studies behind them. The German Athlete's use to use Gelatin to recover from work outs. It also helps rebuild conective tissue.

Val


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## RebelGSD

I wonder whether Adequan is good for disk problems?


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## debbiebrown

Adaquin might not help the Disc problem much, but it will help alleviate the spondylosis that has begun.

Vetri disc supplement helped my guy with intervertable disc disease, i also used chicken collagen which is a more absorbable product because its more like what the body produces naturally.

we also did chiropractic care, which did help for a while. accupucture didn't seem to do much good.

i think management of the problem through alternatives and adjusting the dogs lifestyle can help preserve things longer. no jumping, limited running or horsing around like high impact activites etc. this just causes more wear and tare on the body, especially when there are issues like this you don't want to aggrivate it more than is necessary.

so, what we did was a grain free diet, supplements containing both joint products, things that control inflammation like anti-oxidents, fish oils, then limiting the activites to moderate things, chiro, or accupuncture, Adaquin shots, and anti-inflammatories used only when needed.

debbie


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## natalie559

Thanks Val for the suggestions on the gelatin- hadn't thought of that one.

Debbie it sounds like you have formed a good plan- one that is very similar to one suggested by Monica Segal when I posted on k9kitchen.

Her response was,

"I've worked with many dogs that have this disease and the following approach seems to have helped somewhat:

Fresh foods, focusing on veggies for antioxidants, as well as supplemental vitamins C (I use ester-c only) and E, vitamin B compound and CoQ10 (in the case of this disease, I use 30 mg per 20 pounds of bodyweight but I haven't gone to more than 100 mg)"

So that's what I am going to try to start with. 

Penny already eats a raw diet although I cannot convince her that veggies taste good and she already gets vitamin e and fish oils daily, but I am going to up her fish oils to a more therapeutic level. 

I will be adding to her diet a glu.con.msm supplement, vitamin c, vitamin b complex (Segal suggested 25mg a day for Penny but I am going with the 50mg as it wont hurt and the 50mg is more readily available to me) and CoQ10 100mg a day.

I also found this reading that was interesting and brought up many of the points Debbie and Segal referred to,

http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/AltMed/WienerDog/IVD_AltMed.htm

Ho hum. . .


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## debbiebrown

Natalie,
i think your on the right track! all this stuff does make a huge difference in preserving and controlling things!

best of luck to you, and keep us posted!









debbie


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## LJsMom

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNatalie, before I went with derramax I would try some natural antiinflammatory stuff.
> 
> Plain Knox Gelatin is a good natural Anti-inflammatory. There use to be a link on the Web but it isn't active any more that had a library list of supplements and natural things and what they did and the studies behind them. The German Athlete's use to use Gelatin to recover from work outs. It also helps rebuild conective tissue.
> 
> Val


How is the Plain Knox Gelatin used?


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## debbiebrown

i think the chicken collagen supplement works better than the gelatin if you were to use something of that nature. the chicken collagen is absorbed and used better by the body, since this substance is more like what the body produces naturally.

debbie


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## WiscTiger

I started by adding smaller amounts to some canned food or if my dog like yogurt I would mix it in there. I started with 1 or 2 tespoons depending on the dog and worked up to 1 tblsp 2 x a day. I did this with any of my dogs that had Pano or had a pulled or sore muscles.

I can not comment on chicken collagen I never used it.

Val


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## JenM66

Coming in late on this discussion. Sorry to hear of your dogs troubles. Gracie has lumboscaral instability. We're doing physical therapy and chiropratic. We're also considering acupuncture. She is on NO meds at this point (other than the cosequin she's been on for 2 years before we knew of this problem).

Here's her x-ray:


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: JenM66Sorry to hear of your dogs troubles.


Thanks Jen. 



> Originally Posted By: JenM66Gracie has lumboscaral instability. We're doing physical therapy and chiropratic. We're also considering acupuncture.


I feel lucky to have a vet nearby, Dr. Melanie Donofro, that is a member of the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association and The International Veterinary Acupuncture Society. 

I have contacted the office and she says that an initial consultation with the dog is required before a treatment plan is to take place and that it would cost $75 for the first visit.

I am seriously considering it, for if nothing else I would value a second opinion on the xray images. I feel a second opinion would be valuable since the diagnosed disease calls for lifetime treatments/preventions.

I have never done any chiropractic anything before so this is all new and feels a bit quacky, I must admit. Also Penny gets *really* nervous at the vets and shakes like a leaf the entire visit, so I am not sure how that would effect the treatment.

Has Gracie begun having adjustments and have you noticed any difference?



> Originally Posted By: JenM66Here's her x-ray:


Sorry about Ms Gracie. Did your vet explain how lumboscaral instability was diagnosed through the xray image you posted?


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## JenM66

Through the "tilting" that is seen in the part I circled. I was very concerned about the "quackiness" of it too but check out the thread in the seniors section - it has calmed my fears.

The second opinion ortho we went to rotated and lifted each back leg then he bent her tail onto her back. After that she gave no pain response to his palpitation of her spine. She is JUMPING, CLIMBING STAIRS and playing like she hasn't done in a long time!!!! The first ortho we went to said surgery immediately. The second said try conservative route and re-evaluate in the spring.

We see Dr. Charles Schenck (here in NJ) on Tuesday. He is a holistic vet who does chiro in conjunction with acupunture. Gracie's new vet used to work with him and I know another GSD owner from another list who works there too. I'll keep you posted.


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: JenM66 She is JUMPING, CLIMBING STAIRS and playing like she hasn't done in a long time!!!!

















Two thumbs up for Ms Gracie! 



> Originally Posted By: JenM66 I'll keep you posted.


Please do.


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## Tula

I was also going to suggest a chiropractor. I good one should help in the adjustment of the vertebrae to help space them better and relieve pressure on the bulging disc.

I would also suggest NAG (n-acetyl Glucosamine) vs. just plain glucosamine. Some of the research I read suggests that it helps in soft tissue building as it's a precursor of Hyaluronic Acid (HA).


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: natalie559...I have never done any chiropractic anything before so this is all new and feels a bit quacky, I must admit. Also Penny gets *really* nervous at the vets and shakes like a leaf the entire visit, so I am not sure how that would effect the treatment.....


Bring lots of good treats. Ultimately, they learn that this is not the standard type of vet appointment. Max does cartwheels practically when he knows he is getting an adjustment. He is very happy about the acupuncture, but he *loves* the adjustments. It's very funny to watch.


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## natalie559

I took Penny to the new vet to see if chiro and/or acupuncture would be good for Penny and also to get a second diagnosis in general. I had some general doubts about the old vet and wanted his diagnosis confirmed.

The new vet disagreed with his first diagnosis of mild-moderate hip dysplasia. Thought her hips were fine, not excellent, but fine. Commented that the positioning was a bit off. 

She also disagreed with his second diagnosis of IVDD. I don't know if she disregarded it because she saw a different problem or because she commented that the films weren't in the correct position to evaluate the disc spaces. Said that the xray light distorts the further from the center you travel and that can make the disc space appear as it is not. Only one or two discs are centered in the film.

She diagnosed Penny with lumbosacral spondylosis. 

The spondylosis can cause pressure on the spinal cord or spinal nerve roots and with it being in this critical lumbar area can lead to entrapment of the cauda equina nerve roots which control bladder and fecal function among other things.

She said it was important to keep her back lose to keep the nerves running and healthy. She is having me use a vibrating massager along her spine for 3 minutes 3 days a week to 'wake the nerves up' but said not to overstimulate.

Suggested Standard Process Ligaplex II and Thorne Small Animal Antioxidants. Not sure about those yet, still evaluating.

Weird thing was she could not elicit a pain response from Penny. We go back to see her in two weeks and I'll get some more questions I have answered then.

Sounds like Penny and Gracie might be more similar in conditions than we thought. 

Best thing was I really liked the new vet and her attitude and compassion towards Penny was stellar!


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## angelaw

Spondylosis isn't fun. Duchess has had it for 4 years now. I did xrays last year to see how it's progressed. It's pinching quite a bit down towards her tail. Only a matter of time before it's completely fused over. She can't get on the sofa or bed anymore. I lift her up each night. She can still get down (no I don't let her get down on her own, just sometimes she beats me to it). She's now 12.5 yrs old and still hanging in there!


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## localhost

Try this anti-inflammatory mix called Inflacain from PurePrescriptions.com that has worked wonders for my 9-year old with arthritis. I mix in a capsule in a cup of yoghurt morning and night. It took 3-weeks to kick in, but it is working incredibly well and she doesn't limp but hardly at all now!

I frustrating have tried everything imaginable over the past few years, and have been stunned that this has worked so well.


http://www.pureprescriptions.com/products/product_view.asp?ProductsID=425 

Inflacain® - Specifically formulated to provide relief from body and joint discomfort associated with pro-inflammatory enzymes. Inflacain® features the most comprehensive and effective blend of natural COX-2 inhibitors available. Modern research implicates COX-2 and other enzymes to be a causative factor for excessive inflammation and many degenerative health challenges.* This botanical blend provides natural, fast-acting and long-lasting joint relief, while being gentle to the lining of the GI tract.

Proprietary Blend:
Turmeric root extract 95% (Curcurma longa), IsoOxygene™ (Patented hops extract), Ginger Root extract 5% (Zingiber officinalis), Quercetin, Boswellia serrata extract (standardized to contain 65% boswellic acids), Rosemary leaf extract 6% (Rosmarinus officinalis), Holy Basil leaf extract 6:1 (Ocimum sanctum), Bromelain 1200 GDU , Devil's Claw root (Harpagophytum procumbens), Green Tea extract 95% (Camellia Sinensis) (Decaf), Resveratrol/Hu Zhang root extract 8%, Feverfew extract 4:1, Oregano oil leaf extract 4:1 (1%)(Origanum vulgare), Skullcap extract 4:1 2,11


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## LisaT

With Lumbosacral spondylosis, I would definitely get chiropractic care.

I used the Ligaplex II for Indy years ago. It's a good supplement, often used for ligament and tendon problems. However, I would make sure that you've got glucosamine/chondroitin in the mix, and for spondylosis, I would use some cetyl myristoleate (CMO): http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate

The CMO will modulate some of the inflammation and also lubricate joints and fibers of the muscles. There are other things that can be done too.


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## natalie559

Okay so it has been 4 months or so and about once a month Penny has seen the vet that does chiro and acupuncture. She has been receiving those treatments plus laser light infrared therapy at the acupuncture points in her hind end. I have done the supplements I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Her syptoms continue and are occasional yelping when being lifted and foot dragging/knuckling. 

The vet has me doing cavaletti exercises to try and teach Penny to lift her feet. She does good with the exercises, but it doesn't translate to picking up her feet at other times.

The vet brought up DM but said it usually is painless and Penny is crying at times. Said we could test but that if the test was positive that still doesn't mean that is what she has, just that she could have. Penny will be 5 in June, so the onset age doesn't seem to quite fit either.

I asked the vet at our last visit if the goal was for Penny to not get worse or if it was for Penny to get better. She wants to see Penny not yelp or drag her feet as much. Said some dogs only really respond after she cooks the acupuncture needles. Penny has been getting dry needles.

She recommended we see another vet in the practice that specializes in physical rehab therapy, said that each of the vet's there will approach situations differently and let's see what she has to offer Penny. 

That's great except they want to charge me the full $70 consult fee to redo the neuro and ortho workup and the money will also provide me with an exercise plan for me to do with Penny.

Paying for a service I have already paid for is a bit frustrating and I am not sure if I want to go this route. On one hand we have gone this far lets see what she says, but on the other hand the same money could buy me a chiro/acupuncture treatment and funds aren't overflowing. I am not sure the physical therapy will help, I wonder what she will suggest and I wonder if I will keep it up.

I could use some opinions on what you would do. Thanks as always!!


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## LisaT

Have you seen _any _results from what you have done already?

Just to clarify, these are the supplements?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=841492&page=1#Post856929

Unless the physical rehab has something like an underwater treadmill, I'm having trouble seeing what kind of benefit that might bring. I've never had my dogs on such a treadmill, but I have heard very good things from hydrotherapy -- I know they do it over at the university too. Straight physical rehab? I think that's hard to do when there is "yelping pain", but that's just my experience, others may have a different experience.

Are you sure, no chance of tick disease? No lyme vaccine? When was the last rabies?


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: LisaTHave you seen _any _results from what you have done already?


None







She actually seems stiffer at night than she used to- kinda limps when having been in one sleeping position for a while. Snap crackles and pops when she gets up.



> Originally Posted By: LisaTJust to clarify, these are the supplements?


Yup. She eats a raw diet formulated to NRC and receives a few supplements to balance the diet (zinc, magnesium, manganese, cod liver oil). Supplements she receives for this 'condition' are glu.chon.msm, vit e, vit b complex, vit c, 5000mg fish oil daily, CoQ10- I think that's it.



> Originally Posted By: LisaTUnless the physical rehab has something like an underwater treadmill


I could ask but I am almost sure that no treadmill would be used. Sounded more like things I would do with her at home, similar to the cavaletti exercises. Said I would receive an 'exercise plan.'



> Originally Posted By: LisaTAre you sure, no chance of tick disease? No lyme vaccine? When was the last rabies?


Never had lyme vaccine. Last rabies was Oct 08, when I brought her in for the rabies I casually mentioned the yelping when being lifted and that's when this adventure started.

Have never found a tick on Penny, but it is possible. She does get advantix monthly to help with her flea allergy.


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## LJsMom

> Originally Posted By: LisaTWith Lumbosacral spondylosis, I would definitely get chiropractic care.
> 
> I used the Ligaplex II for Indy years ago. It's a good supplement, often used for ligament and tendon problems. However, I would make sure that you've got glucosamine/chondroitin in the mix, and for spondylosis, I would use some cetyl myristoleate (CMO): http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate
> 
> The CMO will modulate some of the inflammation and also lubricate joints and fibers of the muscles. There are other things that can be done too.


I think there's a group of us using the CMO - I saw improvements in a week or so.


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## LisaT

It makes no sense to me that nothing has made a difference. If that cracking and popping is new, it is probably stuff breaking up a bit, and maybe might make her stiffer for a bit. 

I might try a couple of things. 

You most likely won't be able to find anything, but...when you are just relaxing, gently apply pressure to the soft space between the top of the vertebrae, each of those indentations, for a count of 20 seconds or so. You can see if you can get a response, a movement, a twitch of the muscles, to try to nail this down a bit. You can do this along the side of the vertebrae too, just to see what you feel. Get to know the hotspots of her spine, get her used to your touch, she might tell you in a subtle way where the problem is.

The chiro I usually take the dogs to, and the backup chiro I use for Indy, do very different things, so your vet may not be able to find what you can during the quiet time with her. Sometimes, just lightly sitting with your hand over a sore area (with the weight of say, a nickel), with intent, with gentle movement, can do more than some physical therapy.

And I would start with that CMO product, and also an alpha-lipoic acid product. I linked the CMO product that I use above, which is a great product, and here is the ALA product I use: http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Alpha-Lipoic-Acid-with-Biotin

The CMO will help with inflammation and "lubricating" the muscles. The ALA help with any type of nerve pain. There may be inflammation that just won't resolve without some more help.


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## natalie559

Lisa what dosage do you use for those two supplements? Penny is 74#. The vet also is into Chinese herbs and said she has a hind end support one that we could try.


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: LisaT cetyl myristoleate (CMO): http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate


How do you feel about the above product vs this one, http://www.cetylm.com/content/dogs.asp

Interesting reading about the benefits of the CMO- both for people and dogs. I have been having trigger finger in my right hand for some time now and it sounds like it would help me too- and would also be a good test as I can voice if I feel changes.

What about the one localhost posted? http://www.pureprescriptions.com/products/product_view.asp?ProductsID=425#


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## LisaT

I am not sure about the dosage for the CMO, we will have to see what LJsMom is using. When it's a "your dog is about to die" dosage, I load it high at first and then back off a bit. For example, with Indy's process, when she was so sick, I gave her a full human dose, 3 pills twice a day for a full bottle (she is 33 pounds). That's about the only thing that modulates her immune system well.

I did try it on myself way back when. I had this weird tightness around my ribcage, making it hard to take a breath. Within days that was better. I probably took the same dose as Indy the time. Right now I have Indy on one a day, and I give Max two day, and they both could probably do with more, just trying to get away with a bare minimum right now.

As for that other CM product. When I first starting researching this stuff, the original material was from an animal source. I was led to believe, that the plant source is not as effective as the animal source. So when I found this product, from a bovine source, it is the only one that I have used and I can vouch for it. Any other product, I can't say anything about.

As for what localhost posted, I was also intrigued by it, and thought it might be worth a try. Max has huge inflammation issues stemming from somewhere in his body. The CMO helps with that, but that Pure Prescriptions product looks like a good product.


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## LisaT

Oh, about the herbs. I am not good with herbal combinations. I know that some of them work very well, and I know that Max has sensitivities to many of the combination products, so I tend not to use them. That is my hesitation with the anti-inflammatory that was linked above. BUT, I like the ingredients in it, and it's a good brand, so I might try that one.

When using those herbal combinations, it's often hard to find other folks to compare notes with, since they can be so unique. You kinda have to go with what the vet says. If you can find the name of it, I can always check and see if it shows up in any of the books that I have here.


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## natalie559

Well the product marketed for dogs says one pill contains 250mg Cetyl Myristoleate and that the loading dose is 2 tablets per day per 25 lbs of body weight for the first 4 to 6 weeks~ so that translates to 1500mg Cetyl Myristoleate daily for a 75# dog.

If the jarrow formula has 380mg Cetyl Myristoleate per capsule, Penny would need 4 caps a day for the loading dose, according to the dosage info on the canine product.

The dog formula states the maintenance dose is "maintenance schedule of one tablet per day per 25 lbs. of body weight. For severe cases or elderly dogs, you may continue at the initial dosage level."

I think I'll skip the other vet for now and try this supplement. I only want to try one thing at a time so that I know what if anything makes a difference.

Thanks for the help.

Also if Joanne could chime in with LJs dosage that would be great!


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## LisaT

We definitely expect a full report back!

As I was messing around with Max's leg this morning, I was wondering if Penny's issue might be more in the groin area?

Think of her in a frog leg position on her back or even side, and put your hand in a karate chop position and it fits right in that area between the leg and the body. If you gently move the edge of your hand to the front and the rear of the body, you *might* find an issue. 

Max has issues in that area, one side in particular. He has a lot of pain at the front part of it, and just knotted up at the rear part, about where his testicles should be. It makes him not want to put weight there. Some bodyworkers, for humans, call that the "front of the back". Just by chance, if the issue is in the front of the back, that might make sense why your vet hasn't found it. 

Just kinda grasping at possibilities, it's a mystery.


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## LJsMom

Is it possible to search back more than 12 weeks (to like July)? We've had extensive posts on the CMO. I wish I had saved them. 

Last July Lady Jane started with the CMO. I gave her a loading dose for * I believe * 8 weeks. *I think* I gave her 2 at breakfast and 2 at dinner. After the initial 8 week period, I only gave it to her one week of the month. I just started giving her 2 each day, every day. I buy it on Amazon.


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## LisaT

Here's one:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729111&page=1#Post729111


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## LJsMom

Thanks Lisa!


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## natalie559

Best price I found is on http://www.myhealthmyworld.com/Jarrow-TRUE-CMO-380mg-60caps.html#top

Anyone see a reason not to buy from there?

Also Lisa re the ALA product: what dose and would you recommend it right from the start? A lot that I read says it helps with diabetic nerve pain but would it help with regular nerve pain? I was wondering if it would be best to try the CMO first for 2 months then if I am not happy go on to trying something else.


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## LisaT

Great proce!!

I don't see a reason not too, unless there normal shipping is a lot. 

I'll have to get mine from there too!


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## natalie559

Shipping is free over $95 and an extra 5% off if you buy 3 or more jarrow products- both of which this order would qualify for.


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## LisaT

Cool, a full report is expected!


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## natalie559

Lisa I think in all your excitement over price you may have missed my question







And don't worry I will report back



> Originally Posted By: natalie559Also Lisa re the ALA product: what dose and would you recommend it right from the start? A lot that I read says it helps with diabetic nerve pain but would it help with regular nerve pain? I was wondering if it would be best to try the CMO first for 2 months then if I am not happy go on to trying something else.


I am also thinking of supplements for her allergies as the shots aren't really working. We tried standard process Allerplex some time ago with positive results, not sure why we didn't continue, so I am thinking of trying it again. I am also reading about their product Antronex which is a histamine blocker and think we may have to try that too. Any experience with either of these?


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## LisaT

LOL, I was reading on my phone and missed the whole paragraph about the ALA, and somehow I missed your last reply now too - I only found it cuz I wanted to find the link to that anti-inflammatory!!

Regarding the ALA -- I had read all the stuff about diabetes too. This was awhile ago, when I was looking for something to manage Indy's nerve pain (not from diabetes). It *really* helps her a lot. Then my mom had a stroke and hassevere post-stroke nerve pain. It has also helped her. I've taken it too, so I have a very impressive sample of, well, three, to go by. I did find that they are doing a clinical trial to study whether it can help with nerve pain caused by chemotherapy. I'd like to try it on Dad, but if I ask him to take another pill, I fear he will stop taking them all, including the chemo pills!! (Yes, he hates pills, all pills. Took us years to get him to take a full multivitamin and not just 1/2 a one.)

The bottom line is that I don't know the right dosage. Max (75 lb GSD) and I each take a 1/2 a pill a day, which is 50mg. Indy (33lbs)gets 100 mg per day. I think some of there other supps have very small amounts, and I'm not concerned about the little bit extra. My mom was taking up to 6 a day, but I asked her to drop back, just because it seemed excessive, so I think she takes 200-300mg per day. I would give 100 mg per day for a GSD with symptoms. 

I view the CMO as more of a tool to get that acute inflammation down, and the ALA more of something that helps with chronic nerve pain and to protect further damage to the nerves. For a flair-up of nerve pain, I like using either the herb St John's Wort (not to be used for extended periods) or Scullcap, though the former can interact with a significant number of meds, much like the mdr1 issue does.

I would definitely give the CMO a trial all by itself. If it helps, then you know that one of the issues is inflammation and perhaps muscle pain. I will be surprise if it doesn't help. But if it doesn't, then we tackle it from a chronic nerve pain issue.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: natalie559I am also thinking of supplements for her allergies as the shots aren't really working. We tried standard process Allerplex some time ago with positive results, not sure why we didn't continue, so I am thinking of trying it again. I am also reading about their product Antronex which is a histamine blocker and think we may have to try that too. Any experience with either of these?


I haven't looked at those, and will have to look at them later.

It is my belief that allergy folks require more vitamin C, B vitamins and zinc than other folks. I used to take allergy shots, but had to stop, and I also can't take any of the antihistamines. I do take extra of what I just mentioned, and when I stopped the shots, I started taking these in the am and the pm: http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/Supplements/M003508.htm , which has helped a tremendous amount. I don't sneeze much, but during that time of year, I take this: http://www.hylands.com/products/hayfever.php , which helps very quickly.

I'll try to look at those other supps tomorrow when I get chance.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: natalie559I am also thinking of supplements for her allergies as the shots aren't really working. We tried standard process Allerplex some time ago with positive results, not sure why we didn't continue, so I am thinking of trying it again. I am also reading about their product Antronex which is a histamine blocker and think we may have to try that too. Any experience with either of these?


Allerplex 
http://www.wellvet.com/allerplex.html
http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=9

Antronex 
http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=11

Well, I'm sorry to say, that I don't think I can be very helpful here. 

Standard Process supplements are great supplements, and they are often what I consider, more than the sum of their parts. For example, Ligaplex II, for tendons and such, the ingredients sure don't look like they are that effective, but the mix together makes a very product. 

I know that they are at the front edge of whole food supplements. But I don't think that I can add anything insightful, other than if they worked before, I certainly think that it's worth trying again.

Allergy shots, do contain adjuvants, and I think it's primarily aluminum. Maybe you can get better results without having to have that heavy metal exposure.


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## LisaT

Any updates, or is it too soon?


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## natalie559

Penny started the allerplex and antronex for her allergies 4-13-09; from my previous notes on this she took 12 days to respond; still scratching and hoping for a response by this weekend; I am giving 2 allerplex twice a day and 1 maybe 2 antronex twice a day.

Penny and I both started the CMO 4-13-09 in the PM; the jarrow at two caps twice a day. I feel less 'trigger finger' in my hand, but still feel swelling, not painful but still have discomfort. Penny seemed slightly less stiff when getting up at nights, but nothing miraculous. She has been sleeping some in the other room so I may have just not noticed a change.

Penny started the ALA 4-13-09 in the PM; one cap divided into AM and PM- now just whole once a day. Screamed out in pain two days ago while lifting her a work. Still drags rear feet.

So really nothing noteworthy, but will continue to give it more time as it really hasn't been that long. Thanks for checking on us!


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## LisaT

I guess I was hoping for something a little bit more encouraging, but I am the impatient type.

The CMO should attack the current pain and stiffness, particularly in the muscles and the joints, the ALA has the ability to take away mild nerve pain, and is nerve protective (thus good for diabetics).

I'm still fiddling with trying to find something for the mutts here too. Indy freezes and won't move, and the only thing I've found that that gets it lately is the doxycyline. She's about a month off of it now, and has been freezing quite a bit. The Inflacain that was posted above, didn't help (though I still have Max on it). I started Indy on more high powered curcumin this morning. She's feeling great tonight, but that could be from the curcumin, or because I stopped the Inflacain, or something else. I'll know within a week. Max is always slow to respond to stuff, Indy pretty quick.

I'm sorry that Penny is still in such pain. That yelp must be a bit heartbreaking. Glad at least the trigger finger is a bit better though!


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