# Our GS is growling at our 8 year old son. Help!



## miro2010

We adopted Miro 6 weeks ago (he's about 6 years old). He is very attached to me (I am definitely his favorite of the pack).

Last week while I was petting Miro, Nico (8 years old) started hugging him (around the neck) and Miro gave 1 bark. First bark ever inside our home in the 6 weeks that we've had him.

3 days ago, I was taking a nap and Miro was lying next to my bed. Nico came in and started to pet him and hug him. This time Miro growled!!!! It wasn't a long growl but he definitely did it.

20 min. ago, again......Miro was lying on my feet and Nico came to hug him and the dog growled again.

What is going on? Why is he growling? Will he dare bite Nico? 

Miro has not done this at all until now. I read somewhere that you don't see an adoptive dog's true personality until 2 months after you take him/her into your home but we never saw any aggressive behavior towards us or the children. Our 2 year old daughter walks all over him and he does nothing. When he gets tired of her he just stands up and moves to another corner.

What is going on here? Why is he all of a sudden growling at our son? 

Any input and advice is very much appreciated!!! Thanks so much!!

Warm regards,
Maria


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## smyke

Fanta has been around my kids since she was 8 weeks old (now 6 months) and if she is sleeping and they try to hug her or even pet her sometimes she will growl and still being a little pup she sometimes snap.

I asked the question on here (or another forum) and was told that the kids have to learn not to bother a sleeping dog and the fact that he/she growls is a good thing. they are giving a warning instead of just biting.

Since then I make sure that the kids realize what is going on and its getting better.


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## arycrest

miro2010 said:


> We adopted Miro 6 weeks ago (he's about 6 years old). He is very attached to me (I am definitely his favorite of the pack).
> 
> Last week while I was petting Miro, Nico (8 years old) started hugging him (around the neck) and Miro gave 1 bark. First bark ever inside our home in the 6 weeks that we've had him.
> 
> 3 days ago, I was taking a nap and Miro was lying next to my bed. Nico came in and started to pet him and hug him. This time Miro growled!!!! It wasn't a long growl but he definitely did it.
> 
> 20 min. ago, again......Miro was lying on my feet and Nico came to hug him and the dog growled again.
> 
> What is going on? Why is he growling? Will he dare bite Nico?
> 
> Miro has not done this at all until now. I read somewhere that you don't see an adoptive dog's true personality until 2 months after you take him/her into your home but we never saw any aggressive behavior towards us or the children. Our 2 year old daughter walks all over him and he does nothing. When he gets tired of her he just stands up and moves to another corner.
> 
> What is going on here? Why is he all of a sudden growling at our son?
> 
> Any input and advice is very much appreciated!!! Thanks so much!!


Children have to be taught how to interact with dogs just as dogs need to be trained on how to interact with children. A 6 year old dog can have health issues like arthritis which may be painful. IMHO you have to be interactive and should teach Nico not to hug Miro since the dog has warned him not to do this.


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## AbbyK9

Congratulations on your new family member, and thank you so much for adopting an older dog. That's a great thing.

When your dog is growling or barking at your son, it is to let your child know that he is not enjoying this type of interaction. Most dogs, for example, don't like to be hugged at all, not even by family members, because that is just not a natural thing to them. And nobody likes to be bothered when they are asleep, dog or human.

Your dog is probably giving you (and your son) plenty of signals when he is not enjoying a specific type of interaction before he ever goes to growling or barking. Things such as tucking his tail, licking his lips, giving the "whale eye" (looking from the corner of his eye), and yawning are all signals that dogs give when they are uncomfortable. Those are signals you need to learn to recognize so you can keep your child safe and your dog comfortable interacting with your children, because even the most patient dog will reach a limit where they just can't take it anymore and may well snap at your children if the behavior continues.

I don't think that this is "aggression" - I think it's a reaction to the way your child interacts with him. The best way to address this would be to learn what signals dogs give when they are uncomfortable, teach your children to watch out for them, and be ready to stop interaction when your dog is uncomfortable. You have to explain to your children that dogs, like people, need their space and don't appreciate being hugged, woken up from a good nap, or "walked all over". That's your responsibility to both your dog, who relies on you to keep him safe and happy, and your children, who rely on you for the same thing.


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## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> When your dog is growling or barking at your son, it is to let your child know that he is not enjoying this type of interaction. Most dogs, for example, don't like to be hugged at all, not even by family members, because that is just not a natural thing to them. And nobody likes to be bothered when they are asleep, dog or human.
> 
> Your dog is probably giving you (and your son) plenty of signals when he is not enjoying a specific type of interaction before he ever goes to growling or barking. Things such as tucking his tail, licking his lips, giving the "whale eye" (looking from the corner of his eye), and yawning are all signals that dogs give when they are uncomfortable. Those are signals you need to learn to recognize so you can keep your child safe and your dog comfortable interacting with your children, because even the most patient dog will reach a limit where they just can't take it anymore and may well snap at your children if the behavior continues.
> 
> I don't think that this is "aggression" - I think it's a reaction to the way your child interacts with him. ....... You have to explain to your children that dogs, like people, need their space and don't appreciate being hugged, woken up from a good nap, or "walked all over". That's your responsibility to both your dog, who relies on you to keep him safe and happy, and your children, who rely on you for the same thing.


I agree that you need to teach your children and others also how to interact with your family dog, BUT I would be MOST disappointed with my dog if my child couldn't pet him and yes, even hug him w/o the dog growling at him.

IMO, our dog must be able to put up with a lot from our child without acting aggressively and they always have done so even to the point of our baby crawling over her when she was laying on the floor.

To my mind an adult GSD should treat a small child like they would a very young puppy and grant them "the puppy exemption" whereby they can get away with most anything(not actually really hurting the dog of course) as long as they are under 4/5 months old.

Just my opinion and expectations about our adult male GSD.

BTW I also expect him to put up with someone taking his toy, or his bone or even his food away with out complaint and esp. w/o any growls.

And he does - just looks at whoever took it and hopes to get it back! And this is a GSD with a very hard dominant temperament around most other dogs!


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## AbbyK9

Codmaster - I was responding to the original poster in regards to her individual dog and her specific situation. The dog the original poster writes about is a dog they have had a month and a half, an adult rescue with an unknown background. 

In her situation, I think it's too much to expect of this individual dog that he should put up with anything the children do, whether that is hugging or whether that is petting while he is asleep. This is a dog that may not have been around children before, that may not have a lot of tolerance for certain behaviors (such as hugging) and that may be feeling overwhelmed by the attention from these young kids.

I think the dog is doing great with the younger child. The original post said that the younger child can "walk all over him" and he will simply get up and walk away when he has had enough or is feeling overwhelmed. The dog isn't giving the older child the same leeway - the child is older and doing things the dog specifically doesn't like, such as hugging. I don't think a dog *should* be expected to put up with everything, much like a person visiting their household should not be expected to put up with everything. We all have limits, dogs included. Some are more patient with others, some are not. 

I love my dogs and welcome children to pet them. I expect my dogs to behave well when kids do things that are probably not that smart around dogs, such as giving hugs or tugging on ears. But at the same time, it's MY job to ensure that I don't force my dogs to endure something that is uncomfortable simply because "they should be expected to." I have to protect them as well.


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## valreegrl

codmaster said:


> I agree that you need to teach your children and others also how to interact with your family dog, BUT I would be MOST disappointed with my dog if my child couldn't pet him and yes, even hug him w/o the dog growling at him.
> 
> IMO, our dog must be able to put up with a lot from our child without acting aggressively and they always have done so even to the point of our baby crawling over her when she was laying on the floor.
> 
> To my mind an adult GSD should treat a small child like they would a very young puppy and grant them "the puppy exemption" whereby they can get away with most anything(not actually really hurting the dog of course) as long as they are under 4/5 months old.
> 
> Just my opinion and expectations about our adult male GSD.
> 
> BTW I also expect him to put up with someone taking his toy, or his bone or even his food away with out complaint and esp. w/o any growls.
> 
> And he does - just looks at whoever took it and hopes to get it back! And this is a GSD with a very hard dominant temperament around most other dogs!


I agree. Although the hugging is unnatural to a dog, and a lot do not particularly enjoy it, it is still not acceptable behavior from the dog. 
Since most of these things happen when you (the parent) are around, I would guess that the dog may be resource guarding as well. 

Practice NILIF. Have your 8 year old do this too. It may be that in your GSD's eyes, you are pack leader but he is number 2 and the rest of the family is below him. You may have to step aside as the primary caregiver for a while so he sees the rest of the family as the provider of all good things. Food/walks/treats/etc. 
And for a while, don't let him lay next to you. If he is resource guarding, you don't want to give him the opportunity, especially around young children and with a dog that you are not too particularly sure about. Things can happen very quickly. 

And if you haven't started already, I would participate in an obedience class for the entire family. That way, your dog learns to work with you and you can get some tips on how to handle new situations like these. It's a win win for everyone. 

Good luck! And thanks for saving a GSD!!


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## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> Codmaster - I was responding to the original poster in regards to her individual dog and her specific situation. The dog the original poster writes about is a dog they have had a month and a half, an adult rescue with an unknown background.
> 
> *Very true and a different situation entirely! The child must be very careful obviously in that situation. I am not sure myself if i would want a dog that could not be trusted among my children. may be better to wait till the kids have grown up some.*
> 
> In her situation, I think it's too much to expect of this individual dog that he should put up with anything the children do, whether that is hugging or whether that is petting while he is asleep. This is a dog that may not have been around children before, that may not have a lot of tolerance for certain behaviors (such as hugging) and that may be feeling overwhelmed by the attention from these young kids.
> 
> I think the dog is doing great with the younger child. The original post said that the younger child can "walk all over him" and he will simply get up and walk away when he has had enough or is feeling overwhelmed. The dog isn't giving the older child the same leeway - the child is older and doing things the dog specifically doesn't like, such as hugging. I don't think a dog *should* be expected to put up with everything, much like a person visiting their household should not be expected to put up with everything. We all have limits, dogs included. Some are more patient with others, some are not.
> 
> *Maybe the dog IS giving the younger child the "puppy exemption"?*
> 
> I love my dogs and welcome children to pet them. I expect my dogs to behave well when kids do things that are probably not that smart around dogs, such as giving hugs or tugging on ears. But at the same time, it's MY job to ensure that I don't force my dogs to endure something that is uncomfortable simply because "they should be expected to." I have to protect them as well.


*I see your point and it is a good one but I don't think that I should have to protect my dog from my own kids! Others absolutely agree with you - sometimes we really do have to do that.*


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## AbbyK9

> *I see your point and it is a good one but I don't think that I should have to protect my dog from my own kids! Others absolutely agree with you - sometimes we really do have to do that.*


I think it would really depend on your individual dog and your individual children. 

Some dogs do not have a lot of tolerance for children. While I would hate to have to protect the family dog from the children, and while I would certainly be upset that the dog and children don't have the kind of relationship I would want them to have, I have to take the individuals into consideration. Some dogs are different than others. Some children mean well but may get overly enthusiastic or rough, especially with their first dog or a new dog.


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## PupperLove

I love dogs and love having them around. It is great that you adopted an older dog.

However, I would NEVER keep a dog that showed any signs of aggression towards my child- whether it be growling or snapping, whatever. The safety of my child would be way more important than keeping the dog; and dogs, as lovley as they are, are still animals and we will never know exactly what goes on in their minds.

Having said that, it is important that your son knows how to properly interact with the dog. But if it is just your son that the dog "doesn't like", I would be a little frightened as a parent.


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## codmaster

PupperLove said:


> I love dogs and love having them around. It is great that you adopted an older dog.
> 
> However, I would NEVER keep a dog that showed any signs of aggression towards my child- whether it be growling or snapping, whatever. The safety of my child would be way more important than keeping the dog; and dogs, as lovley as they are, are still animals and we will never know exactly what goes on in their minds.
> 
> Having said that, it is important that your son knows how to properly interact with the dog. But if it is just your son that the dog "doesn't like", I would be a little frightened as a parent.


Excellent way to put it. I agree 100% with you on this. I also would not want a dog who didn't get along and was trustworthy with kids. I understand that some dogs would not be able to do so, but would not have one myself.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I don't think you need to panic cause this just started up.

To me it sounds like your dog has decided he is #1 in the home. And he's in charge of the resources (you!) and keeping people away from them.

Since in my house, it's ME that's in charge of everything, it's a bit clearer to my dogs when they may think they are in charge of something, but I know they are not. I am not there's to protect if I say someone can come near. It's MY bed and I'm in charge of who comes and goes on it. And, frankly, the dogs are at the bottom of my pack in my human family of 'family', friends and guests.

Think it would be a good time to start up those official dog classes so your dog learns to look, listen and obtain guidance from YOU, rather than just making decisions all up on their own.......

I'd also not let the dog on my bed/sofa/furniture for the time being (ever?). 

Also be a help if you could start having your child feed the TWICE daily meals to your dog as much as they can. Food and the 'ownership/sharing' of it is a great way for our dogs to learn their place. The leaders give food, the followers take it. And they should only be GIVEN the food after they 'earn' it by a 'sit' or 'down' or some command. 

There is an excellent book called The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell that has TONS of great suggestions of all the tiny day to day things we can do around the house that make a HUGE difference to our dogs and their knowledge of their role in the household.

dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding










You ABSOLUTELY need to address this issue. If you do nothing it WILL get worse. But if you are willing to turn your lives around for a bit to help your child and your dog, I bet you see improvement almost right away.


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## Dainerra

I agree that there could be more involved than just the hugging. BUT, I don't see telling the child the proper way to interact with a dog as a bad thing. Someone grabbing you around the neck and getting face to face with you is very dominating in the canine world. Why is it surprising that an older dog who might not have encountered it before is un-nerved by it? The dog has endured 6 weeks of behavior he doesn't like - has he ever shown any of the calming signals when he's been hugged before? licking his lips, averting his eyes, trying to leave the area - someone more experienced in this can name more of them, but those are the most obvious ones. Unfortunately, they are often overlooked and this can lead to the dog escalating his warnings to a growl. 

I don't see it as any different than teaching a younger child the correct way to pet a dog. You teach them flat hand, gentle petting; a young child's natural "pet" is more of a thumping on the head in many cases.

I would have your son work more with the dog - feeding him, simple commands for treats, fun games in the back yard. BUT, I would also tell the boy NOT to hug the dog. The dog has already nicely said that he doesn't like this, continuing it IS being mean to the dog. It's even possible that this is the reason that he has started growling at the boy in other situations. He has given out calming signals before, but the boy kept hugging him. Now, he has started growling because he is not liking this type of attention, but everyone now blames the "big bad dog" for growling.

This, I think, is how most of those "he just went crazy and bit someone" stories begin. Please listen to the dog! It's no different than say... tickling. I don't like to be tickled, but lots of people think that it's fun. Does that give someone the right to just come up and tickle me and continue even after I tell them to stop? (HINT:  ask any of my friends and they will tell you the consequences!)

Keep a close eye on all interactions, start NILIF, have the boy more involved in all day to day caretaking and games, STOP the hugging and see if the situation improves.
My youngest is a big "baby talker" She talks to all animals in a high-pitched sing-song voice. It completely terrorizes Freya. Should I have just expected Freya to get over it and deal? Or was it more common-sensical (is that a word??) for me to tell DD to not talk to Freya that way and to use her normal voice when talking to Freya? DD still talks to Rayden, Hammie the guinea pig, the bunnies and chickens in her "baby voice" but had no problem understanding that Freya gets scared by it and talks to her normally.


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## PupperLove

The big problem I see here is that LOTS of children hug dogs as they would another person. What if he were to growl or snap at someone else's child? This dog _could_ be a huge liability. My main concern is for your child and other children.

Not saying he's a viscious dog, but I think you need to make the decision to either work with him intensley and let the dog know he's NOT in charge of the household- or to give him up. Since you adopted him as an adult, you also don't know the dog's background/where he came from. It might help to find out as much as you can about his individual background if you are able to. Best wishes to you and your family- whatever you decide to do!


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## AbbyK9

> The big problem I see here is that LOTS of children hug dogs as they would another person. What if he were to growl or snap at someone else's child? This dog _could_ be a huge liability. My main concern is for your child and other children.


*Other* children are easy. When they tear up to your dog to pet without asking, step between the child and the dog and say, "No, you may not pet my dog." Just because you're walking your dog "in public" does not mean you have to allow everyone (and their kids) to touch, hug, pull on, etc. your dog.


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## Dainerra

I don't my kids hug the dogs. Rayden will seek out hugs, but I know how very uncommon it is. 

To say that lots of kids hug dogs is like saying "lots of kids come up and yank on their ears/poke fingers in their mouths so the dog should just deal with it" I will let pretty much anyone pet Rayden, but I do supervise them completely and make sure they behave appropriately (the kids, they are always worse than the dog)


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## GSDElsa

You've only had the dog 6 weeks. I think it's very early to be letting your children hang off your dog. Not sure if it's his "real" personality or not, but he could just be stressed out and in the adjustment phase. 

No furniture. NILIF. And have your children do it. The dog needs to think they are the pack leaders too, not sure some annoying creatures than yank on his fur every time they come aorund.


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## Emoore

PupperLove said:


> The big problem I see here is that LOTS of children hug dogs as they would another person. What if he were to growl or snap at someone else's child? This dog _could_ be a huge liability. My main concern is for your child and other children.


If you allow strange kids to come up and hug your dog you're asking for trouble.

I'd have the son work with the dog frequently, but not try to hug him again for a while.


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## doggiedad

i don't know what's going on but don't let
your children be all over the dog untill you 
figure it out.



miro2010 said:


> We adopted Miro 6 weeks ago (he's about 6 years old). He is very attached to me (I am definitely his favorite of the pack).
> 
> Last week while I was petting Miro, Nico (8 years old) started hugging him (around the neck) and Miro gave 1 bark. First bark ever inside our home in the 6 weeks that we've had him.
> 
> 3 days ago, I was taking a nap and Miro was lying next to my bed. Nico came in and started to pet him and hug him. This time Miro growled!!!! It wasn't a long growl but he definitely did it.
> 
> 20 min. ago, again......Miro was lying on my feet and Nico came to hug him and the dog growled again.
> 
> What is going on? Why is he growling? Will he dare bite Nico?
> 
> Miro has not done this at all until now. I read somewhere that you don't see an adoptive dog's true personality until 2 months after you take him/her into your home but we never saw any aggressive behavior towards us or the children. Our 2 year old daughter walks all over him and he does nothing. When he gets tired of her he just stands up and moves to another corner.
> 
> What is going on here? Why is he all of a sudden growling at our son?
> 
> Any input and advice is very much appreciated!!! Thanks so much!!
> 
> Warm regards,
> Maria


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## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> I will let pretty much anyone pet Rayden, but I do supervise them completely and make sure they behave appropriately (the kids, they are always worse than the dog)


Maybe with your dog this is true, but how about the dog who will bite a kid! That dog is much worse than the kid.


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## Dainerra

the dog hasn't bitten anyone or acted aggressively. A growl by itself is not "aggressive" it's the dogs way of saying "don't do that" He isn't even growling over petting or "normal" behavior he is growling about being hugged, which in the dog world is very dominant/offensive behavior. 
It would be like saying that a dog is aggressive to kids because he doesn't like them pulling his hair. 

I DON'T let just anyone pet Freya because she is scared of kids. If they are willing, I will let her approach them and I show them how to scratch under her chin which she loves. Now, if I were to let anyone just start mauling on her, then I would be asking for trouble as it would scare her to death. That doesn't make her an aggressive dog, just one that prefers not to be man-handled.


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## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Maybe with your dog this is true, but how about the dog who will bite a kid! That dog is much worse than the kid.


Any dog has the potential to bite a kid, or anyone, for that matter. Fact is, we're dealing with a dog that has shown he doesn't want to bite, so he's warning them. If they don't heed his warning, it's likely he will bite. Because of human error, not his own. 

I'll never let any child, my own or otherwise, "crawl all over, poke and prod" or hug any dog, even my own. Dogs don't like it, and while some may tolerate it, it's not what they're used to, and they interpret it much differently than humans do. From a very young age, you have teach your children proper behavior around dogs, which is the opposite of what they're doing now. You know the behavior that your dog is opposing to; why wouldn't you just ask your son to stop? Have him pet him nicely when he wants to be petter and have him help you train the dog. They'll bond a lot better, and your son won't be at risk for anything bad.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thank you DJEtzel.

Sometimes people hug me and I tolerate it, but I don't necessarily care for it. I have a lot more options than a dog does to dodge the behavior though! However, like has been said, a hug is a very rude gesture to a dog, akin to someone grabbing us in places they shouldn't, so you can see why you might get a different reaction than normal. 

I always tell kids that patting a dog on the head is like a bossy substitute teacher - and they get that. That hugging them is like a relative they don't know very well grabbing them and kissing them hello - and they get that.


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## Dainerra

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I always tell kids that patting a dog on the head is like a bossy substitute teacher - and they get that. That hugging them is like a relative they don't know very well grabbing them and kissing them hello - and they get that.


I love those descriptions! I will definitely keep them in mind next time I'm trying to explain this!

It's understandable that a kid would want to hug his dog that he loves. but it's not that hard to explain to them, esp using those examples!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I have lots of dogs that don't want to be petted by kids.  :rofl:

Just read your post above and agree there too.


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## JakodaCD OA

also thank you DJetzel, great post) And Jean too!!

Face it, there are dogs who tolerate kids mauling all over them and there are dogs who don't like it. You cannot expect every dog to like it nor tolerate it.

I have had dogs who could have cared less about kids mauling them, (and I don't have kids), I've had dogs who put up with it but don't necessarily like it, my aussies are ok with kids, but don't seek them out, my gsd would rather be left alone.

I think in this case the dog is being REAL tolerant but sending a clear message, I don't like it, and it should be STOPPED. Doesn't mean he's a bad dog, but pushed he could bite. He's obviously uncomfortable with the boy hugging him, so I would respect that and teach your son that hugging the dog is a big 'no no'.

Just MHO


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## Dainerra

I think, when you have kids and dogs, there is a very fine line. A dog that merely tolerated kids, but didn't like them, might not be happy in a home with lots of kids who want to always give him attention.

Freya, for example, is afraid of small kids. If my kids were younger or she was afraid of them, she wouldn't be happy here even if there was a 10000% certainty that she would never bite. I don't think it would be fair to her to always be on edge in her own home. 
But, as I mentioned earlier, her only problem here is that she doesn't like baby-talk/sing song type voices. Simple solution was to tell DD not to talk to her like that. She was disappointed, but understood. She also understands that if Freya walks away that means that she doesn't want to play right now - something we have taught her with all the animals since she could crawl around. Now the 2 of them are happy together.

Just because a dog lives with children doesn't mean that they have to tolerate any and all advances from them. The flip side would be to expect children to allow a puppy to nip and rough play fight - after all "that's how puppies play" Instead, we teach the puppy appropriate ways to interact; likewise, kids need to learn appropriate ways to interact with the dogs they live with. If there is one thing they don't like, it doesn't seem unreasonable to just avoid that behavior.
Like an old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this" "Well, then don't do that!"


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## codmaster

Wow, a lot of different expectations of family pets than what I have had for our dogs. I don't expect our GSD's to EVER harm their kids short of them being really in actual pain. 

I would have neen astoniched if any of our dogs ever even growled at our son or his friends while he was growing up. yes we taught Ken not to hurt our dogs of course but as far as playing with him - he would sometimes play a little rough with wrestling with them and even crawling on them when he was a baby. he would also think nothing of crawling over to them when they were chewing a bone or eating and pulling something out of his/her mouth. Would you guys think that is ok for the dog to resist and growl at him? I did not - this was something the dog had to accept and put up with. 

I would not have a dog that would growl at any memebr of the family esp for something like this.


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## onyx'girl

They have had the dog a short time. With TIME, structure and practicing NILIF the relationship will develop, until then, obviously the dog doesn't trust the child so is warning as posted above...Would you rather he not growl and give a warning? Every situation is different and not black and white.


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## AbbyK9

> I would not have a dog that would growl at any memebr of the family esp for something like this.


I look at it this way - while I expect my dogs to put up with some behaviors, I don't expect them to give the children a free pass on everything they do. 

I don't think it's okay for children to climb over the dog, take their food, wake them up when they're sleeping, etc. It's not okay for the kids to do to a friend or relative who comes to visit and it should not be okay for the kids to do to the family dog.

As someone who has dogs and children, it's the parent's responsibility to keep both of them safe and happy, the kids AND the dogs. Even though a dog is "just a pet", it is also a living creature, not a stuffed animal for the kids to do to and with whatever they want.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> They have had the dog a short time. With TIME, structure and practicing NILIF the relationship will develop, until then, obviously the dog doesn't trust the child so is warning as posted above...Would you rather he not growl and give a warning? Every situation is different and not black and white.


Of course I would rather the dog not growl! if the family dog doesn't like something then he/she should simply move away or if they can't I would expect thenm to simply tolerate it from my child, certainly not threaten and even bite.

Now with a new adult dog, this might not happen; but you discussed what you or I would rather have happen.


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## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> the dog hasn't bitten anyone or acted aggressively. A growl by itself is not "aggressive" it's the dogs way of saying "don't do that" He isn't even growling over petting or "normal" behavior he is growling about being hugged, which in the dog world is very dominant/offensive behavior.
> It would be like saying that a dog is aggressive to kids because he doesn't like them pulling his hair.


Of course a growl is an aggressive action - in the majority of times the very next step is a snap or a bite. I wouldn't trust a dog who growled at me or my kids. 
Certainly a dog can learn to at least tolerate a hug from a famuily member without reacting so aggressively.

Whether from fear or true aggression, a growl is a sign that the dog may well bite and HAS to be dealt with before that happens. Someone is at a severe risk of a bite or worse if the dog is growling!


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## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Any dog has the potential to bite a kid, or anyone, for that matter. Fact is, we're dealing with a dog that has shown he doesn't want to bite, so he's warning them. If they don't heed his warning, it's likely he will bite. Because of human error, not his own.
> 
> I'll never let any child, my own or otherwise, "crawl all over, poke and prod" or hug any dog, even my own. Dogs don't like it, and while some may tolerate it, it's not what they're used to, and they interpret it much differently than humans do. From a very young age, you have teach your children proper behavior around dogs, which is the opposite of what they're doing now. You know the behavior that your dog is opposing to; why wouldn't you just ask your son to stop? Have him pet him nicely when he wants to be petter and have him help you train the dog. They'll bond a lot better, and your son won't be at risk for anything bad.


Usually easier to train the dog than the kids! heh! heh!


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## Tina & Dave

I dont think Oxyxgirl meant that the dog should not growl.. she was making an attempt to say that a growl is a warning... I would rather the warning than the action. 

There have been some great suggestions for the original poster and I hope you follow them. I think codmaster you have missed the point some of the other posters are implying. 

IMHO also you should not have a dog if the first reaction you have to a growl is to get rid of the dog. There is usually a lot more going on as many have indicated, that makes a dog growl. 

I do hope the original poster allows this dog more time before judging and rehoming. Six weeks is not long enough to really know a dogs personality.


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## JKlatsky

Kids should be taught not to hug dogs. I've got to say of all the behaviors kids do, hugs around the neck are the ones most likely to get a kid bit. Now, I know that kids do these things and I don't have kids so I worked HARD to get my dogs to accept hugs around the neck and people in their faces. I started when they were puppies with ME first. When he protested my hugs I received bashed noses, a couple nearly black eyes, and a tooth mark or two when I got hit in the face with my dog's mouth all in the name of teaching them to accept hugs. I also taught them to accept ear pulling and tail pulling as well because these are other things that kids do. I'd like to think that you wouldn't let your kids pull on the dog's tail or ears and personally I think that hugs fall into the same category. I don't even have kids, but I work with them and recognize that there is a chance when my dog is out in public there is a possibility that a child could run up and grab my dog and my dog needs to tolerate it until I can stop it. 

Consider what a hug is. It's a restraint where the dog cannot get away, often with the child's head over the neck of the dog (what would you call this if your child was another dog?) or in the dog's face. And kids also seem to have this uncannny knack of breathing right into the ears. Even worse for the dog who was sound asleep or laying down which is an even more vulnerable position and all of a sudden a small person is leaning on them and restraining them and close to their head. Yes some dogs will tolerate all manner of manhandling, and a well socialized family pet often will from the kids within the home. However ask all the owners of the family pets who grew up with the kids and later bit them in the face if they EVER thought their dog would do that. You can't be stupid when you put kids with dogs. 

Let's keep in mind that the OP has only had this dog for 6 weeks. That is not a long time. The dog is still working out where he fits in with the family. Be proactive. Protect your new family member, give him a place that's safe from kids, and give your son another way to interact with the dog. I'm glad you adopted and it sounds like this dog is pretty tolerant of the majority of kid behavior.


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## Dainerra

codmaster said:


> Of course a growl is an aggressive action - in the majority of times the very next step is a snap or a bite. I wouldn't trust a dog who growled at me or my kids.
> Certainly a dog can learn to at least tolerate a hug from a famuily member without reacting so aggressively.
> 
> Whether from fear or true aggression, a growl is a sign that the dog may well bite and HAS to be dealt with before that happens. Someone is at a severe risk of a bite or worse if the dog is growling!



I think there are different levels of "growl" as pertains to aggression. In instances like what the OP described, a growl is a warning, simply the dog's way of saying "don't do that" Now a growl can also be unprovoked - a dog that growls at someone who is just walking by is very different than one who is objecting to the way that he is being treated.
Of course the next step after a growl is a snap or bite! That's the purpose of the growl, the dog's way of saying "please don't do that" If I asked someone to stop doing something and they continued despite my protests, I wouldn't feel out of line for punching them in the face. That's why everyone is saying "hey, don't let your kid hug the dog." Everyone has given very solid reasons why a LOT of dogs don't like this.

yes, a dog can learn to tolerate a lot of things from family, but this dog is a rescued adult who is still learning his place. Why persist on pushing his buttons over a simple matter? Maybe, once he is settled and comfortable and knows everyone and his place in the family, maybe he WOULD be more tolerant of it, but maybe not. Some dogs, like some people, don't like certain things. I like the examples that Jean (I think it was) used - a kiss from your smelly Aunt Selma. In this case, it's more like a hug from some strange guy at the grocery store. You're acquaintances, but that doesn't mean your ready for him to start hugging you!

Again, no one has said that the kid isn't at risk for being bit. That's why everyone is saying "stop the hugging." Not every behavior that we heap on our dogs NEEDS to be tolerated. It's not like the dog growled the first time that the boy hugged him. I wish the OP would post back, saying if the dog gave any calming signals in the weeks before to show that he didn't like the hugging - avoiding eye contact, licking lips, etc etc I bet that he did; which means that the growling began after earlier, more subtle, clues were overlooked or ignored. 

I agree with JKlatsky; it's the perfect recipe for a bite to the face, which always leaves the most severe injuries....


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## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Wow, a lot of different expectations of family pets than what I have had for our dogs. I don't expect our GSD's to EVER harm their kids short of them being really in actual pain.
> 
> I would have neen astoniched if any of our dogs ever even growled at our son or his friends while he was growing up. yes we taught Ken not to hurt our dogs of course but as far as playing with him - he would sometimes play a little rough with wrestling with them and even crawling on them when he was a baby. he would also think nothing of crawling over to them when they were chewing a bone or eating and pulling something out of his/her mouth. Would you guys think that is ok for the dog to resist and growl at him? I did not - this was something the dog had to accept and put up with.
> 
> I would not have a dog that would growl at any memebr of the family esp for something like this.


I don't understand how you can blame a dog for being upset by something that should not be done to him. It's pretty much like hitting him and him biting you; he's responding to something you (or your children) should NOT be doing to him, and he knows it. 

And you're very lucky that none of your dogs resource guarded. I don't think you understand that dogs have personality and behavior problems from time to time that you can't take for granted.



codmaster said:


> Usually easier to train the dog than the kids! heh! heh!


In this case, it'd be the equivalent of you being trained to enjoy strange animals putting you in a headlock. Would you ever like that? I doubt it. Some people may get used to it and tolerate it though without punching the animal in the face. Dogs are the same way. And while dogs may be easier to 'train' than kids, that doesn't mean you should let your children run rampant and do whatever they please with a dog. It's being an irresponsible pet owner and parent, IMO. You need to set rules for kids, and I've never had a problem teaching family members' children, or friends' children rules about the dogs. If you can't control your child around your dog, then you shouldn't own a dog, because you're risking your childs life and your dogs. If your dog was to bite your child, you'd get rid of it, and the city would likely have him/her PTS for your own negligence.


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## miro2010

Thank you all so much for your replies. I REALLY appreciate it!

I told the boys to stop hugging the dog. He doesn't like it and this is understandable since it is unnatural behavior for canines. I was hugging Miro as well!!! I've stopped now and I have this board to thank for this very valuable lesson. 

The growling has continued and it's ONLY happening with my older son. I'm starting to think that Miro does not like Nico! :-( My other assessment is that Miro sees Nico as his inferior so he's growling at him in a "whatcha lookin' at punk? You messin' with me?!!!" kind of way. And of course Nico is a little bit fearful of him now so Miro smells the fear and wants to show his dominance even more.

We are telling Nico to show Miro that he is boss. If he growls he needs to tell Miro that is not okay (in a very firm voice yell "NO"). 

We started with the obedience lessons. The trainer is a German Shepherd expert (has owned 6 himself) and was the official trainer of the German Shepherd Club of Switzerland for 15 years. 

I will have our son go to the next lesson. I will also have him take care of the feedings so Miro sees him in a different light (pecking order). I just wonder why the growling is only for Nico. He doesn't growl at my other 2 kids!

Miro was found lost and starving in Southern Italy. He was in foster homes for 2 months before we adopted him. There is no background history (unfortunately). In Italy, stray dogs get put into "dog prisons". The reason Miro was saved by the Swiss animal protection group was b/c the people that rescued him said he was an absolute sweetheart (that they had never seen a German Shepherd so gentle and sweet). They said he was great with people but aggressive towards other dogs.

When we met him we immediately fell in love with him and he really has been sweet and gentle these past 6 weeks (going on 7 now). I guess this is also the reason I was so shocked by the growling. 6 weeks and he had never made a sound inside our home (he doesn't even bark).

Thanks again for all the advice and tips. Wish us luck! We don't want to give Miro away (it has not even come up as an option).

Cheers,
Maria


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## APBTLove

miro2010 said:


> We are telling Nico to show Miro that he is boss. If he growls he needs to tell Miro that is not okay (in a very firm voice yell "NO").


I want to comment on this.

Do NOT leave it up to your 8yo to tell the dog off! If Miro really is trying to assert his dominance over your child, have your child 'snap' back could tell Miro he needs to use force. YOU need to be on top of it, YOU need to correct Miro. 

Do not ever leave Miro and Nico alone...

And as said, get Nico to be the one working on obedience and training with Miro for the most part, so Miro starts looking up to him.


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## Jax08

Personally, I would NOT correct him for growling. The growling is a signal that the dog is uncomfortable with something, or being dominant as you said. If you correct him for growling he may decide to skip that step and move on to something more aggressive.

I would talk to your new trainer about the situation and decide what to do from there. Definitely start the NILIF immediately.


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## JakodaCD OA

I definately agree with the above two posters^^^.

You may want to talk to sunczarina here on the board, I think at one point, her male dog was not to thrilled with one of her sons?? She may be able to offer some insite/suggestions on what she has been doing regarding this behavior.


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## miro2010

So Nico should NOT try to show the dog that he is above him in our family pecking order by giving him orders or asking him to stop a certain behavior. 

You're right about the growling....I don't want to discourage the growling. I want him to growl and not bite if he feels frustrated but then how do we handle it? Do we just tell Nico to step away from the dog and let Miro think it's okay to growl at him? What do we do?

We will definitely ask the trainer for advice this Saturday. I wonder what he will say.


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## Jax08

I think, with adult supervision, that Nico should be working with Miro. Miro should have to sit, command given by Nico, before he gets fed by Nico. Miro should never be on the furniture or beds. He will view that as being equal to Nico.

Does Nico play ball, or anything like that, with Miro? Miro should have to do something to get the toy. If he knows sit, have him sit.

he will learn that he has to earn his way and he is not 'above' Nico.

But always, always, always....with your supervision. Definitely contact Jenn (SunCzarina) about how she is handling Otto with her son.


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## Dainerra

miro2010 said:


> So Nico should NOT try to show the dog that he is above him in our family pecking order by giving him orders or asking him to stop a certain behavior.
> .


definitely have your son give him commands and esp the NILIF. but corrections, esp for the growling, should come from you. Otherwise, it could spark an escalation if he views your son as inferior to him.


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## codmaster

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I would NOT correct him for growling. The growling is a signal that the dog is uncomfortable with something, or being dominant as you said. If you correct him for growling he may decide to skip that step and move on to something more aggressive.
> I would talk to your new trainer about the situation and decide what to do from there. Definitely start the NILIF immediately.


I agree with the above poster NOT to leave him alone with your son. In fact I would be reluctant to have them together too much until you can solve the growling problem.

I disagree with the advice of not correcting the growling, but I would certainly ask your trainer what to do do when he growls at your son when you are there. I have heard that advice of not correcting growling because then the theory is that the dog will skip the growling (what they are corrected for) and go right to biting. i don't think that I agree with that theory since the dog would have to think that the growl and the bite are two different distinct acts and I can't believe that they would do that since they are both because of the same act (the hugging, for example).

At any rate, as I am sure that you are very well aware, the reaction of the dog to your son is something that must be addressed and completly solved asap!

Good luck and definetly let us know how you make out.


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## gsdraven

> You're right about the growling....I don't want to discourage the growling. I want him to growl and not bite if he feels frustrated but then how do we handle it? Do we just tell Nico to step away from the dog and let Miro think it's okay to growl at him? What do we do?


The idea is to change things so that Miro does not WANT to growl at Nico. This is why I agree not to correct the growl, it is communication and you want Miro to communicate with you. The focus should be on why is he growling and how can you can change the situation and make it so he doesn't feel threatened. 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that it is OK for a dog to growl at their human but that it could be worse if the dog skipped the growl.


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## Jax08

codmaster said:


> I agree with the above poster NOT to leave him alone with your son. In fact I would be reluctant to have them together too much until you can solve the growling problem.
> 
> I disagree with the advice of not correcting the growling, but I would certainly ask your trainer what to do do when he growls at your son when you are there. I have heard that advice of not correcting growling because then the theory is that the dog will skip the growling (what they are corrected for) and go right to biting. i don't think that I agree with that theory since the dog would have to think that the growl and the bite are two different distinct acts and I can't believe that they would do that since they are both because of the same act (the hugging, for example).
> 
> At any rate, as I am sure that you are very well aware, the reaction of the dog to your son is something that must be addressed and completly solved asap!
> 
> Good luck and definetly let us know how you make out.


Codmaster...the reason I will always advise to not correct for growling is that I did that with Jax and she went to the next step. Granted...it was NOT towards a person but towards another dog but I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

I know you don't agree with that advise, as you've said before, but it does happen. I don't want to turn this into a debate and take the focus off of the OP, just wanted to explain my experience and to tell the OP that it can, and does, happen.


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## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> I don't understand how you can blame a dog for being upset by something that should not be done to him. It's pretty much like hitting him and him biting you; he's responding to something you (or your children) should NOT be doing to him, and he knows it.
> 
> *Are you serious? A hug from a family member is NOTHING like hitting my dog! Besides I would not expect my dog to bite me if I did (and I don't and won't) hit him.*
> 
> *I am kind of curious how you know what my or any other dog "knows"? Why wouldn't I hug my dog? Don't you think a dog is smart enough to learn that we humans have some crazy ways about us.*
> 
> *Now, would I hug a strange dog? - of course not, but my own dogs, of course - ever since they are little puppies. And i don't think they mind a heck of a lot as they sure do wag their tails and act all friendly when I do it.*
> 
> And you're very lucky that none of your dogs resource guarded. I don't think you understand that dogs have personality and behavior problems from time to time that you can't take for granted.
> 
> *BTW, It's really not luck! My dogs don't resource guard because they have been trained not to from 7/8 week old puppies. It is WAY too dangerous to have a large dog like a GSD who will bite if someone takes a toy, or food, or anything else away from them. It is absolutely ridiculous to have a dog who you can't do this with when necessary esp. if you should have a child in the house. It is trained as a game with the young puppies.*
> 
> *We have pictuires of our tiny 3 yo son sitting next to our Sch trained big male GSD with his legs around the dog food bowl feeding him one piece at a time and the dog laying there eating one kibble at a time and just taking it from my son's little fingers. That is how we raised the dogs. I assume maybe you see something wrong with training them not to resource guard - if so, then good luck to you and I hope that your dog never has to make the choice about biting someone because they dared come too close to their food or toy. *
> 
> In this case, it'd be the equivalent of you being trained to enjoy strange animals putting you in a headlock. Would you ever like that? I doubt it. Some people may get used to it and tolerate it though without punching the animal in the face. Dogs are the same way. And while dogs may be easier to 'train' than kids, that doesn't mean you should let your children run rampant and do whatever they please with a dog. It's being an irresponsible pet owner and parent, IMO. You need to set rules for kids, and I've never had a problem teaching family members' children, or friends' children rules about the dogs. If you can't control your child around your dog, then you shouldn't own a dog, because you're risking your childs life and your dogs. If your dog was to bite your child, you'd get rid of it, and the city would likely have him/her PTS for your own negligence.


*I got to ask it again - are you serious? Who said that I let my kids "run rampant" around the dog? On the cantrary, our son was taught from an early age to respect the dog and not pull his tail or pinch his ears and the like. But feeding him and hugging him and petting him was greatly encouraged and the dog and kid learned a mutual respect and the dog would have given his life for our son if need be.*

*I got to ask - was one of your rules that you taught your kids: "Don't go near the dog while he is eating?".*
*I am guesing it was since you sound to me that that would be one of the rules.*

*BTW, how about when kids come by your dog that you have not had a chance to "teach the rules" to. My guess is that you would say that you not let those kids anywhere near my dog, right?*

*I think that my dog(s) would be MUCH less likely to bite my kid or any kid than yours would (if the kid innocently broke one of the "rules"that you set up). *

*Anyway, the nice thing about all this is that you can teach your dogs (and kids) whatever you want; and I will teach mine what I believe thay should know about how to interact with me and my family and any number of kids.*


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## codmaster

Jax08 said:


> Codmaster...the reason I will always advise to not correct for growling is that I did that with Jax and she went to the next step. Granted...it was NOT towards a person but towards another dog but I've seen this happen with my own eyes.
> 
> I know you don't agree with that advise, as you've said before, but it does happen. I don't want to turn this into a debate and take the focus off of the OP, just wanted to explain my experience and to tell the OP that it can, and does, happen.


Jax,
Thanks for the update. I had never heard of a dog reacting that way to the correction for growling! Sounds like maybe the other dog might have reacted to the not growling - wonder what that meant in doggy language?

I have also fowarded that approach to the dog behaviorist that we have consulted with and I am interested in her reaction which I will pass along to the group when I get it.


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## DJEtzel

miro2010 said:


> So Nico should NOT try to show the dog that he is above him in our family pecking order by giving him orders or asking him to stop a certain behavior.
> 
> You're right about the growling....I don't want to discourage the growling. I want him to growl and not bite if he feels frustrated but then how do we handle it? Do we just tell Nico to step away from the dog and let Miro think it's okay to growl at him? What do we do?
> 
> We will definitely ask the trainer for advice this Saturday. I wonder what he will say.


If Nico steps away and ignores growls, Miro isn't going to think that it's okay, because you didn't enforce it in any way. In that situation I would immediately give him a different command to distract him. It's basically replacing the growling with an acceptable behavior.


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## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> *I got to ask it again - are you serious? Who said that I let my kids "run rampant" around the dog? On the cantrary, our son was taught from an early age to respect the dog and not pull his tail or pinch his ears and the like. But feeding him and hugging him and petting him was greatly encouraged and the dog and kid learned a mutual respect and the dog would have given his life for our son if need be.*
> 
> *I got to ask - was one of your rules that you taught your kids: "Don't go near the dog while he is eating?".*
> *I am guesing it was since you sound to me that that would be one of the rules.*
> 
> *BTW, how about when kids come by your dog that you have not had a chance to "teach the rules" to. My guess is that you would say that you not let those kids anywhere near my dog, right?*
> 
> *I think that my dog(s) would be MUCH less likely to bite my kid or any kid than yours would (if the kid innocently broke one of the "rules"that you set up). *
> 
> *Anyway, the nice thing about all this is that you can teach your dogs (and kids) whatever you want; and I will teach mine what I believe thay should know about how to interact with me and my family and any number of kids.*


Dogs know that hugging isn't normal because it's in their instict. No other dog does this to them, therefore it is abnormal. Whether they realize we do strange things or not has nothing to do with it. 

And on your comment of hugging strange dogs; that is basically what this dog is to them. They didn't raise it from 8 weeks and they don't know it's history. It is essentially a strange dog. That even you wouldn't hug, but you think it's okay for a kid to hug him? 

Just because you trained your dog not to resource guard as a puppy means nothing. There are tons of dogs that have never done it in their life, then start suddenly for one reason or another. There are TONS of things that could compel a dog to do such a thing. My dog has never shown a sign of guarding ANYTHING from ANYONE including dogs, babies, and cats, but that doesn't mean I'll let babies play with him while he's eating. And I never said that I found anything wrong with training them not to resource guard; that really has nothing to do with it. I didn't "train" my dog not to, but I occasionally take things, replace things, feed his meals, etc. and my dog has no reason to bite anyone for taking something as of now, and I don't expect him to. I encourage visiting children to give him things and take things from him often, and he's a big baby about it. 

I made the comment about your children running rampant because you stated that your son often got rough with your dog, crawled all over him, and took things from his mouth. I consider that child running rampant. Although, you ARE encouraging it. I don't know what that would be considered.. Either way, the things you described were very short of your son respecting your dog. 

And I don't have kids, so no, teaching them to stay away from Frag while eating is not a rule. Nor would it be. I have no problem with kids being active in ensuring that a dog doesn't resource guard, but letting them crawl all over him and hug him and do innappropriate things I do have a problem with, and I closely supervise ANY interaction with Frag and children, because after all, he is a dog and they are children. Frag gets petted often while eating, and I often give him a leave it command then take his food for a second and put it back down after a sit/stay. No problems. 

I also don't mind kids that aren't familiar with Frag or the "rules" coming near him. I don't understand why you think that..  I just supervise and make sure they respect him. Often I ask that they wait for him to sit, he does, then I make sure they pet nice. (no grabbing, pulling, hitting) Easy enough. Just last weekend we had a family dinner and a counsin's 3 year old was quite rambuncious with Frag, grabbing his squeakers, running through the house with them, throwing them all over, including at Frag. I wasn't too comfortable, and his mother didn't do anything, but Frag was fine and I did end up taking the toys away when I felt it could start to get out of hand. Frag loved the change of scenery though. 

And I don't think you can judge whether or not my dog or yours would bite anybody. I know Frag isn't going to bite anyone. You may know yours won't. We've raised them from puppies and that's a fair assumption, but the OP has not done this and can't assume anything near it. Because of the fact that there aren't really any rules, or any stipulations that can be broken, there's no reason anyone would do anything that could make Frag bite them.. simple as that. 

I agree though; you can continue teaching your kids to act around dogs your way, and I will eventually teach mine my way, when I finally do have kids. 

Oh, and btw, I have no problem loving on my dog either, but I don't put him in a headlocked position, and won't let anyone else do it either. He loves me just the same. :wub:


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