# How do you know when?



## atruepastime

Hi there I would love some advise on this, my old 15 year old dog has chronic arthritis with terrible knees and hip, he requires help to stand and walks in a stumbling and staggering way when he does, he pretty much walks out to wee and poo and back in to eat, drink and sleep. The difficulty is that he become very anxious when he is lying down and barks and yelps non-stop until he is up, sometimes once he is up it seems like he doesnt know what he wants to do now that he is up. 

The hardest part though is getting him up, he often becomes aggressive and attempts to bite and snap, today he got me and put two deep punctures in my hand with his canines - was attempting to muzzle him so i could lift him. Once he is up he is fine - no aggression just keen to get out to if he needs to pee or poo. 

He still loves his food, but I feel he over drinks and urinates too frequently (every few hours). I can't lift him safely nobody else in my family dares too and now we have the neighbours writing us letters about the noise. 

I have bought him some sedation from the vet and honestly its breaking my heart i can see him fighting through it but unable too.. he seems confused about his sedated state and tries to get up but can't... his eyes look dead and he looks so helpless unable to get up he has urinated on himself because he cant get up, but without the sedation he will bark through out the day off an on for sometimes quite a while (10-30 minutes at a time) unless someone sits with him, and even then sometimes that doesn't help either. I have him with a pillow and blanket and take his temp regularly to make sure he isn't over heating or getting too cold.. but I just dont know how to manage him.. we are thinking of euthanasia which is breaking my heart because he is not dying, but he is in pain and his quality of life is compromised but I don't feel like he has given up on life himself. 

Someone help me see clearly if you can, I won't take offence he matters more than my ego and I'd love to hear any insight into how I should be approaching him. I am a vet nurse myself and I see dogs being brought in for euthanasia all the time, so you'd think I'd know the answer to this, but often times i feel animals are brought in to be pts well and truly much later than they should be.. when they have been suffering for days on end before being brought in. He is painful but he also loves hugs and eats well, and drinks well.. the issue is his management and anxiety and aggression. Thank you I appreciate your time and advise.


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## Mrs.K

To me it sounds like you already know the answer yourself. 

Personally, I would Euthanize. The issue is not only his anxiety and aggression, it is the pain, that he can't walk by himself, the severe arthritis and his age. The only reason he probably snaps at you is due to the pain. 

You are the only one that can manage him. What if you are down yourself? Let's say your back went out and you can't lift him for days? 

He's had a good long life. Let him go with dignity and don't try to squeeze every second out of his life. Even if he likes his food and overdrinks. Just from the description you've given. I couldn't watch him being in that severe of pain that he needs sedation. We can give them gift to let them go and release them from their chronic pain.

Hang in there (((HUGS)))


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Is he on anything for pain?

It sounds like he is kind of a palliative care case, which is nice because that gives us the freedom to give meds without worry of their long-term side effects. So you can medicate for pain, and you can help him with his anxiety - but the anxiety might actually be pain - yelping and barking - so I would look at pain management more closely if you have not. There might be a link here in this section about that. If not just google Cornell Vet Pain Management. I was just logging off and saw this so sorry for not doing it for you. 

I know that many will recommend PTS but sometimes pain management allows the dog some quality of life. 

My old dog would bark because he wanted something - so I waited on him. He had always been a pushy dog so he really let me have it in his last months. :wub:

Cholodin is a supplement that can help older dogs age better too. 

A harness like the one here Ruff Wear Performance Dog Gear | Dog Packs | Dog Boots look for the webmaster - is really helpful - the dog can be carried/moved like a suitcase. There is also a harness that helps support front and back. I am not sure but if you google Whole Dog Journal Ruffwear Harness the other one should show up. 

If you cannot get the pain under control, then...well, it is most fair to him to let him go. 

Take a look in this section, there is a quality of life inventory that tries to help owners make this decision. I wish you the best, you have the compassion, you just need some clarity.


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## KZoppa

I agree with Mrs. K that you already know the answer even if you dont want to admit it. Better a day too soon than a day too late. 

Sounds like your guy has had a good long life filled with love but the amount of pain he's in and the amount of assistance he needs is frustrating him and then sedating him only adds to the frustration. Ask your dog. They do tell us when they're ready to go.


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## Konotashi

That sounds a bit like our schnauzer when we had to let her go. She had to be carried up and down the stairs, and if she wasn't taken out, she would go potty then slide through it (because she couldn't walk). She had to be helped up and would fall if she tried to walk too far.... I think we should have let her go before we did, but my mom decided it was time when she refused to eat.  I didn't push it because I know how hard of a decision it was for her. She was her first dog and had been with her through the hardest times in her life, but I did ask her to consider it and look at her quality of life.


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## blehmannwa

It's time. The body wants to live. It's an engine that's designed for survival but there are limits. Death is rarely easy and I think dogs especially will themselves to go on. We as their friend/companion/guardian have to help them and keep their comfort our goal.

It's been two and a half weeks since I said Goodbye to Felony. I still cry every day. I miss her so much. But it's a comfort to know that her pain is over. It's such a difficult decision to make when its your dog. I am sorry that you are going through this. I think that when the chance for meaningful recovery is gone and bad times out number the good--it's time.

One thing though--have you tried steroids? I've heard that they can give a few good weeks. My friend had an IW with bone cancer and they gave him steroids and he had a bit more quality time.


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## atruepastime

He has been on daily joint supplements, weekly cartrophen injections and non-steroidals for years now for his joints, last year I stopped giving the anti inflammatories regularly as his liver enzymes were way out of whack and as he was getting blood in his stool, I have restarted the pain relief today (previcox - its one of the gentler non-steroidals on their intestinal lining we have here in aus).. and I have just booked him in for a home visit for his euthanasia next week.. but might have to bring that forward, it doesn't help its swelteringly hot here today.. I have the fans on him and a wet tea towel too to keep him cool, but he is still slightly hyperthermic. 

I guess I'm going through the doubt and guilt that everyone faces, about when to let him go, particularly because he is trying so hard to keep participating in life (struggling to get out to toilet rather than messing in the house and putting away his food with as much gusto as he always has, giving affection and seeking it when he is not stressed about standing etc.). I appreciate your advise so much, I know the time is nearing for him, not from an illness point of view but because of the stress and pain he is feeling everyday. I will see if his anxiety reduces with the pain relief, and see how he is tomorrow once todays sedation wears off, I don't think I'll use the sedation anymore on him if i can help it because I can see how its not relieving his anxiety, it might actually be compounding it because he cant get up (apart from when the time comes).. anyway thank you I will talk to my family today I see if I can get the vet out to us tomorrow, with my hand all swollen and draining now I couldn't possibly lift him into the car anyway now. My poor old boy, I've known and loved him since primary school and he has seen me through uni and into working adult life as my most loyal friend.


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## blehmannwa

It's the kindest thing to do--but,boy, is it hard. Enjoy your days, let him have his favorite foods and be kind to yourself as well.


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## qbchottu

I am so sorry for your predicament. I wish you all the best during this tough time. If it were me, I would call in the vet earlier than later.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

There's never a good time to say goodbye, but you know in your heart. My vet always helps me with this: Her bottom line is when the quality of life is so low that it's painful. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other because that's something only you can decide. You'll have regrets either way. If you let go, you'll regret that there was nothing else you could do. If you don't, you'll regret feeling like you prolonged the agony.


Geeze, a tear fell while I was typing this to you. Look him in the eyes and you'll know.


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## katieliz

wishing you the strength to make the right decision and peace of mind once you've made it. take care, many blessings to both you and your boy.


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## Anja1Blue

Mrs.K said:


> To me it sounds like you already know the answer yourself.
> 
> Personally, I would Euthanize. The issue is not only his anxiety and aggression, it is the pain, that he can't walk by himself, the severe arthritis and his age. The only reason he probably snaps at you is due to the pain.
> 
> You are the only one that can manage him. What if you are down yourself? Let's say your back went out and you can't lift him for days?
> 
> He's had a good long life. Let him go with dignity and don't try to squeeze every second out of his life. Even if he likes his food and overdrinks. Just from the description you've given. I couldn't watch him being in that severe of pain that he needs sedation. We can give them gift to let them go and release them from their chronic pain.
> 
> Hang in there (((HUGS)))


I agree with this 100%. Not all dogs will stop eating/drinking when they are at the end - most of mine have continued to do so, in some cases still taking treats as the vet was administering the euthanasia drug. This is not, in my opinion, an indication of anything other than the instinct to survive, which can be stronger in some individuals than others. I think the decision to end a life is extraordinarily hard, in part because of our love for them and because we do not want to be without them. We keep them alive for us, not because it is necessarily in their best interest. After many years, when I allowed some of our dogs (and cats if we had them) to go on far longer than I should have, I determined to try and look at it from the dog's point of view - do the bad days, hours, minutes outweigh the good ones? If the answer is yes, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and even though my heart is breaking, I let them go.

My thoughts are with you.......... :hugs:
___________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Stevenzachsmom

I just want to tell you how sorry I am you have to make this difficult decision. I understand completely. My dog is 14. She has good days and bad. The good days aren't great, but I tell myself she is doing alright. The bad days seem like the end and I consider calling the vet in to PTS. It really is darned if you do and darned if you don't. 

I hope it gives you some peace to know that you provided your boy a wonderful life. You are making his last days as comfortable as possible. And....you are making your decisions based on what is best for him. That is a very selfless thing to do.

Adding my blessings to katieliz's.
Hugs,
Jan


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## atruepastime

Thank you so much for your support, you have all helped me do what I didn't have the courage to do and while it has been an emotional roller coaster of fond memories and tears, it was bittersweet to wake up this morning and my old boy wasn't whining and struggling to stand up and to get on with his day anymore. I put him to sleep yesterday and it was the most agonising day of my life. He is the first dog I have loved with all my heart and I am eternally grateful for knowing him.

As a 12 year old girl I could walk him anywhere off leash a busy shopping mall street or in the bush and he never strayed from my side, I never thought anything of it then, just thinking that it was what dogs did. Always so calm and loyal, I was truly blessed to have known such a dog. Thank you for helping me end his pain, I am so inexpressibly grateful. Nobody else I knew had the heart to tell me what I needed to hear, probably in fear of how it might break my heart to hear it. Thank you so much, I am glad his suffering has ended.


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## katieliz

thank YOU for loving him as you did. love transcends everything. he is not gone from you, his energy is now in your heart and in your mind. many more blessings to you as you work through this incredible loss. and someday, when the time is right...there will be another one who will once again bring joy into your life. take care.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

My guess is everyone here knows exactly how you're feeling right now. My sympathies to you and your loss.


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## DKHarris

Having just put my lab of 13 years down last Friday I know what you are talking about. When I look back I know I made the right decision. It sounds like you did as well. Zoe went from Healthy to bad in about 6 months. She had so much pain in her neck and back she could not lay down. She would pace all day and night. We had to force her to lay down and once she relaxed she was asleep in seconds from being so tired. I miss her. I have had a dream about her almost everynight. Great memories. Just remember being a great parent and doing the right thing is hard. Congrats on being a great parent!


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## Anja1Blue

atruepastime said:


> Thank you so much for your support, you have all helped me do what I didn't have the courage to do and while it has been an emotional roller coaster of fond memories and tears, it was bittersweet to wake up this morning and my old boy wasn't whining and struggling to stand up and to get on with his day anymore. I put him to sleep yesterday and it was the most agonising day of my life. He is the first dog I have loved with all my heart and I am eternally grateful for knowing him.
> 
> As a 12 year old girl I could walk him anywhere off leash a busy shopping mall street or in the bush and he never strayed from my side, I never thought anything of it then, just thinking that it was what dogs did. Always so calm and loyal, I was truly blessed to have known such a dog. Thank you for helping me end his pain, I am so inexpressibly grateful. Nobody else I knew had the heart to tell me what I needed to hear, probably in fear of how it might break my heart to hear it. Thank you so much, I am glad his suffering has ended.


You did the right thing, gave him one last gift, and you are already beginning to feel the sense of relief that comes when you realize a beloved family member is suffering no more. It's not just the pain they go through, there is emotional suffering too, as they struggle to understand what is happening to them........

He will always be with you, because in your memory he will live on. Be good to yourself now, it will take a while for the grief to pass - in the meantime you might like to check this website www.petloss.com - it is gentle and compassionate, and you can put your boy's name on the Rainbow Bridge list - he will be remembered every Monday along with all the other pets.
_________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Pepper311

So so sorry. I lost my 16yr old dog a year ago and I still cry every now and then. It's hard but we have to do what's best for our pets.


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## WaterBound

I don't really have the exact answer to our question. I lost my Buddie in March and am still kind of sad over it.

Buddie had cancer and it metastasized. He had a 2+ year fight. The vet said the tumor was finally on his liver and could not be removed and he said Chemo is hopeless at this stage. Basically he told me to watch out for him being lethargic. He would start internal hemorrhaging and hence slow down. That would be the time to put him down.

He lived 2 years after his surgery to remove his major tumor. And another year of life after it reached his liver.

His final year he had arthritis. I had to carry him, 76lbs, daily for him to urinate and defecate. At first the supplements really helped and he could get up again. But soon it was steroid time.

Just when we started pain killers he looked like he was doing really well. However I found him in the living room a few weeks later. He was actually looking really good his last two weeks until the end.

My hand got really tore up carrying him daily the last year. When he passed I looked at my hand and thought I would chop it off if it could bring him back. But in the end it was just his time and I thought about if I should have put him down earlier.

I could not think of when I should have done it. I thought of my grandmother and thinking **** we pulled the plug on her.

We brought her home and when we turned the machine off. We prepared the body. We removed all of the tubes and turned her over and cleaned all of the leaking fluid. We wrapped her jaw shut and turned on the A/C to wait for the police and the funeral home techs.

She did not die because we wanted her to. It was because the insurance and Doctors thought she was a veggie and would not wake up again. They forced our hand and so we brought her home and kept ALL the meds going, no hospice garbage, until the hospital gave the order to recall the equipment.

Now if I think of Buddie. He was ALL THERE till the last moment. He was totally alive and himself till the bitter end. Like my grandmother I don't think there was a day I could think of as the day I would have put hm down. He fought until the very end. He enjoyed every **** bite of BBQ I fed him at the end.

In fact I know it was bad, but that dog ate better than most humans. I actually fed him human food from the start. I like to cook and enjoy great food. He would never eat the same thing twice. Like if he had some Beef Chow Mein one night he would refuse it the next day. I cut up every piece of meat for him because he preferred his meat in small pieces. You could throw a porterhouse in front of him and he would refuse it until you cut it up for him. He loved sushi, but only nigiri sushi. He loved and enjoyed all of the gourmet food you can imagine. He liked lobster, but not shrimp. He liked cheese, but no eggs.

I know the food was bad and probably contributed to him only living 13+ years. I don't feed my other dogs human food like him. However I know and he knew he was loved and cherished till the end. He was happy by our backyard fires and BBQs even though he could not run and do his hurricane spins anymore. He was really something. People used to think he was possessed. Even though I had to pick him up all the time he was eager to smile and very affectionate till the last day. And I KNOW he enjoyed every morsel of gourmet food I fed him till the end.

Looking back there was not one day I would go back and take away from him... or me for that matter...

I just picked him up and bagged him to minimize the rotting. I found a crematorium and stayed the night holding my friend until they were open in the morning. He stayed nice and soft until I put him in the furnace. His fur was still shiny and golden. I slept with him outside to minimize the methane and Co2 build up.

No matter what you both had the time of your lives together and you should never forget it.


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## T U N D R A

I came here to find answers for what JOINT SUPPLEMENT is best for my GSD .. she is going on 12 yrs old and I hav had her on Glucosamine Chondroitin and Fish Oil daily for the past 5 years .. with that said, she now needs help getting up into the the (large suspensioned) truck, which she ADORES going in for a ride .. I leave sometimes which when I return I notice shes a bt "depressed" .. I immediately start doing things with her and she respinds but again, the noticable, progressive things like (truck, mobility, etc) that are changing in her, and it Breaks My Heart . this dog (it s dog .. !) has been the must trusted, protective, loyal, wonderful and Smart (!!) animal that I hav ever had the pleasure of being in care of .. I type this and yet it is Completely True .. she has captured my Heart, my Life My Loyalty My Turst My Devotion and of course, my utter and total Love Love Love .. (who feels this about a Dog ..?) and the answer is .. I do . she has become so sweet and trusting of me, we are so Bonded, that IDK how I will be able to cope if she is on the way of leaving me, as I hav read here .. SHE WAS BORN IN MY HOUSE ! and exihibits such terrific Constitution and temperment in almost every situation I expose her to .. this, I know, means she Trusts me ! deeply, and I know she relates to a communication (pre-Schutzhund training) style between us that is more the exception than the rule .. many love their dogs, but many do not comprehend "pack" mentality and develop this connection .. anyway .. I signed on to find some INFORMATION as she is getting older,and I can TELL she feels pain (dogs wont overtly show pain, its in their instinct, in fact, to Hide it ..!) but the bottom line is I want to HELP her .. this Loyal, Devoted, Loving entity which has gicven sooo Much to me .. taught me so much, and loved me Unconditionally .. I want to HELP HER !!
THIS IS BREAKING MY HEART .. !!
I read a plethora of comments .. pklease LMK .. please do tell .. what will HELP HER .. !??


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