# Training heeling/obedience for schutzhund?



## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm trying to get started in schutzhund and I believe have a good grasp on tracking (at least from all the step by step info on schutzhund village and schutzhund-training), but I'm having a hard time finding detailed steps for the obedience phase. I have Michael Ellis' focused heeling DVD and even that leaves me with a lot of questions too. 

I don't think there are specific schutzhund trainers in my area, and my club doesn't have straight answers either, I think because they've all been doing it for so long that they don't even know where to start with me. LOL

What do you think of taking AKC obedience classes to learn the heeling aspect of schutzhund, or is that too shallow? 

Anything online or books that are very articulate with strong methods to get the very focused heel would be great, if those exist? Or trainer/video recs?


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

Forgot to add, I'm located in SoCal and I won't have my schutzhund puppy for at least another 6 months! Though I'd be training my current dog for practice, once training focused heeling is clear to me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IF the AKC obedience instructor understands training a dog in drive to create the powerful heeling wanted in IPO, then there is no reason not to train with them. When in MI I trained with an AKC person. If they don't know how to create that picture, though, then they may be of limited use for you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do you belong to an IPO club?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

People will have different techniques and preferences, but the general idea is basically create focus in the correct position before you actually move, then one step, two steps, holding the focus and position. Build on that.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I was told just to start in the kitchen, or house, get that position, extend the time, and only then go to forward movement. One step at at time- literally- one step, then two, then three, and only go to more steps if you like the dog's attitude and attention.

There are also a lot of people who like using rubber feed bowls as touch pads to get the flashy cornering down. I don't know if that is how Ellis does it, but knowing his training style, I'm guessing it is, so that'll be on his videos. 

I'd work first on attention in position, then get input from there as you have questions pop up.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm not paying to be a member yet since I'm just a guest for now, but I'm part of Southern California Schutzhund Club. They don't have a training director and prefer to just take turn giving group advice and tips, so people can train using whatever method they want. But that's not very helpful for teaching a newbie who doesn't know a method yet I think LOL.

Thanks for the replies guys

Michael Ellis actually doesn't use the bowl, though I bought it myself. He trains the heeling walking along a wall and I believe is just doing that repeatedly and marking the correct position for weeks, until the dog naturally gets the idea of staying in that position when there's no wall and when turning.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I don't know how to edit a post on my phone so I have to make a new one:

The questions I have for now is, using the bowl method, my current dog turns when I turn into him, but doesn't follow me when I turn the way away from him, if that makes sense. He doesn't have any rear end awareness foundation, so we've been working on that, I don't know if that's the reason.

Second question is where can I learn the step by step for the bowl method and transitioning that to what I see people holding a toy under their arm to keep the dog's focus upward?


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

Sorry i have to make another post... kinda annoying that i can't edit a post on my phone 

Another question is that I originally am trying to follow Michael Ellis' method luring along a wall and marking like I said earlier. Same problem, my dog can turn and heel there when I'm turning against his body, but not when I turn the other way from him. He just stands there and doesn't understand haha. Amazingly, Michael Ellis doesn't explain this in his video, because the dogs magically seem to get it. 

Lots of newbie questions with probably a long answer LOL, but hopefully you guys know some links or tips on where to go from here?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

The club I go to doesn't do any formal obedience or tracking with new handlers either. I get privates and go to separate group classes for that. There are a ton of clubs in so cal - maybe drive to a different club/trainer. It might be a better fit for you as a new handler. The club I go to is two hours away (and they are the closest to me).


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I think it depends on what might work for the dog in terms of your questions. I'm a newbie to the sport myself, but if I were having problems with the dog following my position I would either have the leash attached and behind or in front of me, depending on how the dog moves with it, so that when I turned and the dog didn't follow, the dog would give into leash pressure. I would practice it like that and reward immediately after the turn until the dog understood what I was asking, and then start adding more than the one or two steps for the directional change. 

You can also get a stick or dowel, and as you turn you could press against the rear end of your dog if you're using the touch pad bowl when you turn away from them. It may or may not work, depending on if the dog understands what that pressure means. 

Alternatively you could just simply lure or target with food in your hand. I think the problem with luring away from yourself is that the body follows the head, so chances are the dog's body won't stay aligned with you as you turn away. It could be used as an initial understanding, but the position would have to be fixed later on.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Michael Ellis definitely does use the rubber food bowls as foot targets to teach pivoting, jumping patterns, and the beginnings of stay


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LancerandRara said:


> I don't know how to edit a post on my phone so I have to make a new one:
> 
> The questions I have for now is, using the bowl method, my current dog turns when I turn into him, but doesn't follow me when I turn the way away from him, if that makes sense. He doesn't have any rear end awareness foundation, so we've been working on that, I don't know if that's the reason.
> 
> Second question is where can I learn the step by step for the bowl method and transitioning that to what I see people holding a toy under their arm to keep the dog's focus upward?


Are you luring with food when you make your initial turns?

Did you follow his instructions as far as clustering the same direction together---don't switch back and forth constantly. Make 5 left turns, then 5 right turns, or so on. And did you start teaching the pivoting from in front of the dog? If not, I'd got back and get the dog's front feet on the bucket, put the food in their face, then begin to shuffle your feet around until you can fluidly move the dog both directions while you are facing each other head on. Then try it while you are next to the dog


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LancerandRara said:


> I don't know how to edit a post on my phone so I have to make a new one:
> 
> The questions I have for now is, using the bowl method, my current dog turns when I turn into him, but doesn't follow me when I turn the way away from him, if that makes sense. He doesn't have any rear end awareness foundation, so we've been working on that, I don't know if that's the reason.
> 
> Second question is where can I learn the step by step for the bowl method and transitioning that to what I see people holding a toy under their arm to keep the dog's focus upward?


Thats not really where you'd be thinking transition. If you want to use the ball for targeting like that, first you make sure your dog can focus on the ball. He has to really want it and learn he gets it when he's showing control. Then the placement of it like under your arm in position. 

I think the touch pad is unrelated to the focus and position for the most part. You can probably use it at the same time in separate sessions, luring him from the front position left and right to let him swing his rear. Later on you could narrow it to heel position, left, right if you wanted to. 

You don't have to do all this, but this video shows one way of focusing the dog on the ball, capping, and then allowing the dog to get the ball when he shows that control.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, a lot of it is breaking it into steps and also making sure the dog understands engagement and motivation and how to work for the reward. I'll try to post some video later. 

Please keep the questions coming! I'm glad to see a training discussion on this forum. Hopefully you can get some good input from experienced IPO competitors like Steve and others.

I am far from a club now, so do most training on my own, and had to learn by doing to a large extent.... and I'm still learning. I think to a large extent you just have to start somewhere and adjust and learn as you go. Lots of good videos out there. 

But, videos only can give you so much, you really need to just start training and working the dog you have--- keeping in mind each dog is different. Even just the mechanics. With my giant malinois boy, it's different "picture" for me with the movements than with my girls.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

As a side note, you can generally do more on your own with obedience then tracking. You'll really need to track with someone. Its not as simple as it reads or as fake as online comments can make it seem.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

mspiker03 said:


> The club I go to doesn't do any formal obedience or tracking with new handlers either. I get privates and go to separate group classes for that. There are a ton of clubs in so cal - maybe drive to a different club/trainer. It might be a better fit for you as a new handler. The club I go to is two hours away (and they are the closest to me).


Where do you happen to get your separate classes? Maybe I can try to find something similar?

Femfa, thanks for the tips, we'll try those. We did try luring for that though, that one doesn't work with my dog LOL

Yes, I'm luring with food along a wall and with the initial turn away from the wall, going a way without a wall, marking the correct positions, and luring against the wall again, and marking.

Oh right, you brought up a point- my dog moves fluidly (but slowly) when we're facing each other on the bowl. But if I even move a little bit next to him, it messes with his understanding of what to do and he doesn't move unless I'm moving in the direction against him. He only gets what to do if I'm across from him?

Steve, thanks for the info, it helps! The video is also very helpful.

I think I'll have to try tracking with a club member sometime then LOL. I really wish there were some "IPO classes" for tracking and ob. I wonder why those don't exist. It sounds like most people learn online and by researching and just trying their own thing.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Using a Home Depot bucket flipped upside down can help build rear end awareness. Dog put fri t paws up and have the dog "rotate" using back legs only


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I used an upside down large plastic dog dish. This may be what your asking?


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

We use the bowl/pot/dish already, and asked about it in my last posts.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

This may help with getting him to stay in position as you move away from him:It's the same as teaching a left pivot in Rally.I have had good results by luring by positioning my hand directly in front of his nose (not above his head!!)And moving my hand/arm carefully horizontally to the left while shuffling/pivoting next to him in the heel position.The lower positioning made all of the difference,and going slowly at first.When he "gets it" you can incorporate your heel cue.
As you go along training together you will figure out how to tweak methods for your particular dog.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Sent you a pm


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

I thought I should update for whoever reads this, I found out that Fenzi offers focused heeling AND tracking courses online! So I just signed up for precision heeling with my current dog for now. Hopefully it's informative and goes well!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good luck, let us know how it goes! 

I would also recommend checking out Ivan Balabanov's videos.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

LancerandRara said:


> I thought I should update for whoever reads this, I found out that Fenzi offers focused heeling AND tracking courses online! So I just signed up for precision heeling with my current dog for now. Hopefully it's informative and goes well!


I was going to recommend FDSA. Shade Whitesel is teaching a heeling class, https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/11653 and so is Denise. https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/33

I took Lucy's TR101 at bronze, and really liked her technique.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And Shade does IPO which is one of the areas the OP is considering.


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## LancerandRara (Oct 22, 2015)

Quick question about IPO obedience equipment, is there a specific leash length and type needed? Or is just any 1~3 foot light leash okay?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have a leash that fits around my waist with a ring on one end. It is between 2 and 3' braided leather. I use this for training and trialing. I like this better than the 4' I used to use. With puppies and young dogs I use a 15' long line (I actually have 4 of these) except in class situations where I use the one I use with my adult dogs. I also have some tabs that vary in length and then my 30' tracking line. Keep it simple.


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