# Defiant / Bossy Behavior???



## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

In March my mother saw photos of a (FM) GSD that was in a shelter. She was gorgeous black & tan and playing wonderfully with the other dogs. The shelter was a good hour drive away and we went out to visit this GSD. Well, she was very tiny - maybe 55lbs - with ribs showing and all. She was very calm and collect and kinda just hung out with us, walked beautifully on a leash and just seemed generally very alert, watching everything. We were there for hours, and finally left her when the dogs were being fed their dinner. Well, we returned her to her "run" where she ignored the food and spun in tight circles instead. The next day we brought our dogs to see if they liked each other, everything went well and my mom *HAD* to have this dog. We took her home that afternoon. My mom named her Raven. She is supposed to be my moms dog but I have been doing most of the work. 

The shelter said she was a owner-surrender because they had her locked in a crate all the time and decided they had no time for her. The shelter said she was 5 y/o but Two vets later told us 18mo. to 2 years tops.
Its been 4 months and we have been working on nurturing and calming her because she continued her circling behavior, didn't know how to play with toys and was easily startled. She jumped out of her skin if you touched her feet. 
Toys, she is picky but has 1 kind of favorite ball. Circles have gotten better - wider, calmer, more nonchalant like a slow meander around the dinning room or coffee tables. She has gotten 50% better about her feet being touched. She still startles - not as easily though. 

Raven seems timid of my boyfriend and downright spooked whenever my brother enters a room she moves away. She is right up my rear whenever I'm around though. She is almost obsessed with me and has a tendency to bark at me randomly - tail wagging, sometimes bowing. Sometimes it seems a little more menacing like she is downright ordering me around. Sometimes when I tell her to "sit" or "get back" (I'm always tripping over her - this is the 1st thing I taught her)... when I tell her these commands sometimes she just looks me in the eye and barks at me. We have not figured a way to interrupt this barking, sometimes if my mom comes over and stands between her and me she stops. When she gets really wound up, she occasionally gets mouthy only towards me. My best friend has a 2 y/o fm GSD and after many introductions they adore each other and play very rough on play-dates for hours. Sometimes they are zooming all over the yard and fly inches away from our legs - on the most recent play-date Raven started giving me drive-by nips and tugs. I would abruptly tell her "NO!" and she would stop in her tracks.. look me in the eye and start a barking session. Raven can be a little intimidating sometimes, since I have gotten a welt or two from her getting mouthy when I turned my back on her barking. She also has an odd david copperfield habit of grabbing cloth items and yanking them - like our end-table doilies under the lamps, or any handy towel, socks, blanket or throw - but this is only once in a while when she seems frustrated like after barking at me yields no results. At first I tried to *ike* like a dog when Raven mouthed me - (this worked w my cousin's lab) - but that seemed to fuel her a LOT more, I have a feeling she liked chasing screeching children in her past. 

Also, since my 12 y/o GSD passed away a few weeks ago, she now barks at me whenever I am playing with or making a fuss over my remaining dog, a Bichon Frise. He can be so silly and happy sometimes but lately Raven gets very upset and pushy. We are also having a problem (since my GSD passed) with Raven running into and body-checking or slapping my Bichon, which has resulted in a couple *ikes* by my bichon and he was even limping once. He began having #2 accidents in the house - we figured out he was going in the yard #1 and running back in because if he stopped for #2 Raven would target him for "playing". We have been walking them outside separate now. Raven is VERY fast - she flies like a greyhound, sometimes bounds like a gazelle. I hatched a plan within the 1st month of her adoption that I would love to try dock diving with her. 
My mom tried taking them out together and verbally correcting Raven but my Bichon ended up getting trampled before my mom even opened her mouth. 

Raven is very attentive, and she has the will to please but sometimes she just flies off the handle. It seems like she is just horribly developmentally stunted, acting like a 3 month old pup that doesn't know its own power or boundaries. 

Sorry for the long drawn-out story, but Its been a lot weighing on my mind now that my GSD is gone and I realize my mom is doing a lackluster job with this GSD now that I have more time on my hands. 

Any insight would be appreciated - I have always had nice wonderful and loving GSDs, maybe a little rebellious phase when tiny but at most half Raven's size and I knew them inside and out by then and could handle it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It sounds like she doesn't have good social skills and needs a lot of structure, careful boundaries and consistent and fair leadership. Are you doing Nothing in Life is Free? HAve you done any classes with her?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

BowWowMeow said:


> It sounds like she doesn't have good social skills and needs a lot of structure, careful boundaries and consistent and fair leadership. Are you doing Nothing in Life is Free? HAve you done any classes with her?


Socialization OUTSIDE the home, dog classes can help with this if you talk to and work with the trainer prior to classes. 

None of this seems like agression to me BTW. Sounds like you haven't had a chance to teach her how you DO want her to play. And I'd be having tug toys everywhere. Cause once you TEACH her, she'll have a toy in her mouth so when she's excited she'll not have to release the excitement LIKE A DOG KNOWS TO DO, with the nipping. If instead you start TEACHING her a 'new' and better way that means you can PLAY with her instead of correcting her and punishing her (when she just wants to PLAY) because you are in pain.

Get some tug toys out, start TRAINING and working on engagement with your dog.


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## mwiacek10 (Nov 8, 2010)

I had the same sassy barking/nipping problem with my male. It was real bad for a while, and then I started to stand over him and say "no" or "enough". That worked sometimes and sometimes it got real bad. He's been in training since the day he was brought home at 8 wks, so I know it wasn't a lack of discipline. He's 20 months now and it's pretty much gone away (with me anyway, he still likes to give my husband a hard time). I really think he does it because he's board and wants me to engage. I don't give him the satisfaction of reaction. I guess what I'm saying is, give it time. Don't give in to the trick of "if I do this, she'll get up and play with me". Just ignore the behavior and it should slow down. They are very smart animals and know how to push our buttons very well.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

mwiacek10 said:


> He's been in training since the day he was brought home at 8 wks, so I know it wasn't a lack of discipline.


Keep in mind that raising a puppy isn't just about discipline. 

It's also about TEACHING! And our pups have so much to learn, much of it can be done in a positive and happy manner. 

Most 'old time' trainers had to use the method that 'Sets Your Pup Up To FAIL'. The reason being is our pup had to do something WRONG then we could correct it. Puppy bites me... punish and correct. Puppy gets into trash..... punish and correct. Puppy eats my favorite shoes..... punish and correct. Puppy bites me..... PUNISH AND CORRECT :wild:

The newer trainers know that there is a SMARTER way to train most behaviors we want. And we don't have to wait until our puppies are BAD DOGS so we can start training.

Instead we can have a plan, worked out ahead of time, and TEACH our pups what we WANT THEM TO DO! We can use treats, toys, and praise as rewards when they are RIGHT!!!! Rather than the old fashioned 'punish when they are wrong'.

I'd much rather have a happy confident puppy going thru life thinking they are so brilliant cause they are always right right right and earning so many rewards during the day. Rather than taking that same puppy and telling them they are 'wrong wrong wrong' all day. To teach the SAME THING!!!

If the final outcome is the same, only one I have to be smarter for and may take a bit longer but..............assures a confident and happy brilliant dog then I'm all about the 'training to be right' :wild:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mink said:


> Raven is very attentive, and she has the will to please but sometimes she just flies off the handle. It seems like she is just horribly developmentally stunted, acting like a 3 month old pup that doesn't know its own power or boundaries.


I think you hit the nail on the head there.

As for the barking at you, Raven obviously loves you and has no idea how to express it appropriately. She has a limited vocabulary and is emotionally stunted. She's always going to be a little "special", but despite all she's been through, it sounds like her basic underlying temperament is pretty solid, and she will be able to learn a lot.

When she's being pushy and demanding attention/play, get her engaged with a game of tug-of-war. It might take a while to get her interested in a toy, but try a flirt pole--just about any dog alive will find that interesting.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Ok, thanks for the ideas!

We have not been doing dog classes, I could bring up the idea with my mom ("her dog") and see how that goes - although I see substantially more people with minimal results than great ones. 

Yes we have been doing "nothing is free" and positive re-enforcement. Raven has mastered "Sit", even with hand-signal, and learned if she sits she gets a reward - pat on head, ear rub, toy, treat, etc. She has gotten the idea to randomly walk up and sit in front of me and always at least gets a pat on the head - and she seems to like the top of her muzzle scratched. She now does "Down" 50% of the time, I am also working on "Up" since she naturally does it when I get her excited to chase her ball. We are still working on the foot-touching thing and I really hope to teach "paw" someday. She also seems to know "come" but she just stares at you and only comes half the time. My GSD knew "HERE" instead, perhaps we should try changing it to that? Dunno if anyone in the past told her to "come" and then something bad happened?

We have tug ropes and a tug roped toy, Raven kinda gives them a blank stare.. a couple times she grabs a tug toy but she will drop it right away like it leaves a bad taste in her mouth lol. She likes a rubber "indestructible" frisbee I got her but she will not chase or catch it - she plays tug with it a little and then lays down and gnaws on it. She LOVES the JW isqueak bark ball. She will bound after it - she is learning to catch with her mouth and not her paws.. and she will squeak it forever, prance around with it, drop it then chase again - more of a scramble, really. We all cheer, and she loves it. Raven will not for any reason chase her ball or play with any toys outdoors like our back yard no matter how hard I try. She does not understand "Bring" or "Give / Drop" yet, though we are working on it. 

Outside the house Raven is a perfect angel - good leash manners and sits like a statue for petting. She will sit at my side as soon as I stop walking and even lay at my feet if I get into a conversation with someone.
Raven comes with me to work often, when my mom has an appointment or something that would leave Raven home alone. My boss and I have been working to teach her that a nail trim is not so scary. Raven has acted perfect for brushing, bathing, and drying from the start. Sometimes at the end of the day we will play hide & seek in the shop. A couple weeks ago Raven and I went with my friend and her GSD to a creek to see if the girls liked water, and they did - I just need to buy a longer leash so I don't end up in quite so deep. Raven did circles around me - of course - from walking depth to swimming like an otter. I just need to work on getting her in the water without me and perhaps chase a toy.

If i just go ahead and take leadership of Raven, who looks to me but is "my mom's dog" (my mom gets a little sore when Raven blows her off for me) would I be able to better control her stampeding my Bichon Frise?


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## mwiacek10 (Nov 8, 2010)

*



MaggieRoseLee; Keep in mind that raising a puppy isn't just about discipline.

Click to expand...

*It's also about TEACHING! And our pups have so much to learn, much of it can be done in a positive and happy manner.

My trainer and I both strongly believe in positive reinforcement and that is the traning method that has been applied from day one.


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## bells (Aug 7, 2011)

HI all 
I have a 6 month old germy sheppie that is a hand full! He is gonna be a big boy, thinks he around 40 lbs and not chubby. He has been the most challenging shep ive ever raised. I spend countless hours, creating diversions for him. This included stacking and stuffing plastic coffee cans filled with toys and treats. It distracts him when he is over excited, and gives him purpose. If he chews the plastic i immediately replace, since i dont want him munching that. He is mouthy, nippy and exceptionally sweet on his good days. He is down to every other day that is a "bad billy day" lol for me. I walk him, run him, swim him, and i swear god sent him to me to keep me moving. He has great potential, but on "bad billy days" I feel frustrated. I will persevere with him, the other sheppies I have raised were the loves of my life


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