# Breed guarders



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

So, as some know by now, every once in a while, I like to start a thread that sparks some respectful debate within the community and i thought of a topic that sometimes gets under my skin and sometimes I find appropriate. In searching for pups, you’ll often find what I refer to as “breed guarders”. The people that try to convince you not to get a breed. I find them especially prevalent in the mal and Dutch shepherd communities, but let’s be honest, we do it too! SO my question is when is breeding guarding appropriate? When do you let people just “find out,” with fair warning? If you’re a breeder which customers do you just wash out without giving a second thought? Are there certain cues you look for when selling to a buyer/family. I know that this can vary widely depending on breeding and lines, but let’s reunite the breed as a whole without separate lines. Most of us agree that GSD pups can be a lot to handle. Overall,

WHEN IS IT APPROPRIATE AND WHEN IS IT NOT? 

We love our breed and want the best for it. Looking forward to all opinions. Hopefully this sparks some discussion. If it does, mods, I ask that you let this thread go where it may within the rules of the forum. No issues with derailing the thread. No reason for pms. Let’s let it all air out. Experiences/expectations/the raw reality. 

Happy discussion!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Very LONG but please HELP!!


The History: My husband and I had always wanted a family dog. My husband helped raise two GSDs during his childhood/teenage years. One gave its life protecting him as a small child. For those reasons and based on our family environment (time, space, activity, number of people and ages etc...) we...




www.germanshepherds.com













My GS bit my daughter


We have a 16 month old GS that we have had since he was 7 weeks. A couple of weeks ago, my 12 year old was in the kitchen getting food and she turned around to pet the dog and he bit her. Hard enough that I had to rush her to the hospital. Since then, he frequently starts to go after her if...




www.germanshepherds.com













Brutus Buckeye, bit a child...


Hi. I just joined yesterday. Unfortunately we have a problem with our beloved Brutus Buckeye. He badly bit a child who was playing with our two granddaughters in our house. Everything worked out fine with the child, her mom and her grandparents. One attitude is that he needs to be put down...




www.germanshepherds.com













My GSD attacked a child


Details: I have a male GSD, 1,5 years old, called Roi, living in an apartment. He spends most of the time with people, I gave him ton of time (most of my day) attention and love for whole of his life. I trained him all the basic obedience skills, and socialized him properly with people, dogs and...




www.germanshepherds.com













fonzie bit


i have a 4 yr old western style shepherd he is a great dog i have had him at my shop has always been great around people and my nieces and nephews cause my shop is at endlaws house recently i have brought him home i have his son there also he has been great got him groomed he did great and they...




www.germanshepherds.com













My GS bit my daughter, time to put down


We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms...




www.germanshepherds.com





.... and _*hundreds *_more examples of mismatches: ill prepared owners, lack of training, dogs that are genetically screwy AND mismatched to an ill prepared owner, *children bit*, dogs euthanized..... 

I deliberately didn't link any of our recent sad disaster threads, because so many people involved still post and we don't need to dig all of that up.

After involvement in enough sad, terrible situations, I understand why many people in this breed become gatekeepers: attempting to avoid humans suffering & GSDs suffering.

I don't subscribe to the notion that this breed (or malinois or border collies, etc) is only for the dog-owning elite, but I don't think this is the right breed for everyone.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Oh gosh I have so many ways I want to take this I'm having a hard time picking one. One of the most important things to keep in mind is more often than not dogs that are matched poorly with owners often end up neglected, euthanized, rehomed, and/or end up in shelters. So people doing their best to make sure people are appropriately matched with the correct breed and individual dog in that breed is such an important thing. 

There is good and bad to "breed guarding". There are many breeds I discourage people getting over german shepherds. But german shepherds do have the downside of being banned in a lot of rentals and/or not covered by insurance companies. So that's something important to keep in mind when choosing them. I will discourage getting a GSD to some people who are renting and likely to be moving around/have life changes. I didn't get one when I got a new dog for that reason. 

They're also a breed bad for byb breeders and horrible health and/or temperament issues. So if the person won't go to a shelter or responsible breeder I'm going to suggest a different breed. 

Also lots of people who understand nothing about dogs or training and just want a "tough" guard dog that they'll tie up outside. 

But I have noticed some superiority more or less over certain breeds. where the people act like only super duper experienced master trainers can own the dogs. There are some breeds that arenot for the faint of heart but I'm going to avoid going into more detail on this. But it is certainly an issue in german shepherds and brings up the pet breeding argument which well, that's a whole different mess.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Kazel said:


> There are some breeds that arenot for the faint of heart but I'm going to avoid going into more detail on this. But it is certainly an issue in german shepherds and brings up the pet breeding argument which well, that's a whole different mess.


Feel free to go. It’s what this thread is for. Put it all out there. 


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Fodder said:


> We are a large state (CA) with _at least_ 10 GSD rescues. One of them posted yesterday that just this year (3 months), they’ve adopted out 214 purebred (with a few exceptions) dogs. 214!


the above is why i breed guard.
the tip off for me is usually...
“Is a German Shepard right for me?”


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I believe that this breed is fairly easy to handle if you are firm and fair with realistic expectations. That is why I think they can be easily owned by a newbie IF it is the right newbie. A German Shepherd should have no problem being "just a pet" with the RIGHT family who understands that the GSD is not just another dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A big part of the problem is that there are so many poorly bred GSDs which goes with breed popularity. A properly bred GSD can be, but ideally is not suitable for a novice pet family dog. Irresponsible breeders have contributed to the problem because they think if a dog has papers it is breed worthy which is far from the truth. The issue is more notable in working line Mals and DS’s. They have their mellower FCI lines, but the true working lines have no place in pet homes. The popularity of a breed contributes to its decline. Many GSDs are GSDs in name only.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I believe that this breed is fairly easy to handle if you are firm and fair with realistic expectations. That is why I think they can be easily owned by a newbie IF it is the right newbie. A German Shepherd should have no problem being "just a pet" with the RIGHT family who understands that the GSD is not just another dog.


I consider myself no expert so I tend to agree. Depending on line (which I know I excluded) BUT I also believe the the right newbie. If you’re 80 and might get cellulitis from a puppy bite, prob not for you. If you’re against the use of training tools, a newbie and canning handle the size, may not be right. Etc etc. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> A big part of the problem is that there are so many poorly bred GSDs which goes with breed popularity. A properly bred GSD can be, but ideally is not suitable for a novice pet family dog. Irresponsible breeders have contributed to the problem because they think if a dog has papers it is breed worthy which is far from the truth. The issue is more notable in working line Mals and DS’s. They have their mellower FCI lines, but the true working lines have no place in pet homes. The popularity of a breed contributes to its decline. Many GSDs are GSDs in name only.


Feel free to elaborate more. Are you saying that only working line gsd should be used in military/police work, or people that own farms that plan on using them for herding purposes? Are you saying that those that own gsds that are pets AND sports dogs (pets first) are the problem? Elaborate for us


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I consider myself no expert so I tend to agree. Depending on line (which I know I excluded) BUT I also believe the the right newbie. If you’re 80 and might get cellulitis from a puppy bite, prob not for you. If you’re against the use of training tools, a newbie and canning handle the size, may not be right. Etc etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cannot* apologize for the typo. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> Feel free to elaborate more. Are you saying that only working line gsd should be used in military/police work, or people that own farms that plan on using them for herding purposes? Are you saying that those that own gsds that are pets AND sports dogs (pets first) are the problem? Elaborate for us
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This may also delve into the different lines which I excluded but feel free to extend upon it. I’m interested you’re opinion. You train psa. To my knowledge you’re not a LEO working a dog or active military does this mean you should not own a working line dog for solely sport purposes. I’ve noticed you are big on civil aggression, etc, but what makes you feel it is ok for you to say you are appropriate to own a dog that bites a suit but no one else is. Seems hypocritical especially since from prior threads it seems you are unhappy by people breeding dogs for sport. PSA requires a certain type of dog (per founder Gerry Bradshaw). Are you not against that in regards to the breed standard or are you simply in a conflict with ipo. Bc that seems to be your problem. Or is psa more of the breed standard? Bc in that case it would seem psa is for mals if you look at psa 3 titles. Interested in your opinions. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> This may also delve into the different lines which I excluded but feel free to extend upon it. I’m interested you’re opinion. You train psa. To my knowledge you’re not a LEO working a dog or active military does this mean you should not own a working line dog for solely sport purposes. I’ve noticed you are big on civil aggression, etc, but what makes you feel it is ok for you to say you are appropriate to own a dog that bites a suit but no one else is. Seems hypocritical especially since from prior threads it seems you are unhappy by people breeding dogs for sport. PSA requires a certain type of dog (per founder Gerry Bradshaw). Are you not against that in regards to the breed standard or are you simply in a conflict with ipo. Bc that seems to be your problem. Or is psa more of the breed standard? Bc in that case it would seem psa is for mals if you look at psa 3 titles. Interested in your opinions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would like to say in response to my comment that I do not own an ipo titled dog and quite possibly never will. Ipo is not popular in my area. And neither is psa. We still train for ipo to the best of our ability. 


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

to be honest, i do my share of all around dog guarding (tho generally only when solicited)... i just take my job more seriously when it comes to my coveted breeds.

some of my reasoning is selfish - people don’t heed your warnings or recommendations then still expect you to jump to help when things go wrong, to which you provide additional advice that they continue to disregard.

i have very little stress in my life and am very good about setting / keeping boundaries, but that doesn’t make it any easier to watch a dog mishandled or disappointed owners. more so for the former.

on one hand, dogs are so much more resilient than we give them credit for.... i also think that we naturally try and advise people towards what we consider ideal but there’s a ton of grey area to consider... experience, exposure, culture, finances, resources, personality, individual values, etc.... and then the individual dog in question (it’s breeding, background, etc)

my neighbors to the left walk their dogs in strollers... my neighbors to the right have a GSD that hasn’t left the (600 sq ft) yard in 6yrs and is fed Orijen... Another owner i often see muzzles their dog to prevent being bitten in the leg when they pass other dogs.

“pet homes”

i choose my battles.

what it boils down to for me is confidence, commitment and willingness to learn.... sadly areas that i’ve noticed consistently waning in our current society.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> I consider myself no expert so I tend to agree. Depending on line (which I know I excluded) BUT I also believe the the right newbie. If you’re 80 and might get cellulitis from a puppy bite, prob not for you. If you’re against the use of training tools, a newbie and canning handle the size, may not be right. Etc etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, not quite what I am saying. 

IMO, age would only be a consideration if you don't have a qualified and capable person willing to step in to accommodate the dogs in case of an emergency or for long term considerations. If you are in good mental and physical condition, have at it. My mother had COPD yet she hiked into her mid 80s and safely lived with my dogs.

Regarding tools, there is a time and a place for everything but if you find yourself using tools all of the time, maybe this isn't the right breed for you. Almost all of my training is done off leash and often without a collar on. When I do use a collar it is generally a flat collar. Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating all positive, nor am I advocating against tools or corrections. I am advocating to not teach bad behaviors in the first place.

I usually hike in more isolated locations. I rarely put a leash on a dog until one year of age. I took my 7 month female Mal to a different park one time where there is a lot of activity. The Mal is very high prey drive, low threshold and very excitable so due to the number of joggers and bikers, I put her on a leash for the first time. The video is very short so don't fall asleep with boredom. Here is her first time loose leash walking.






Then again if you are faint of heart and don't think you can handle being woken up to an armed coup, maybe you shouldn't own this breed. 










But on a more serious note, I think it is about a person's core being, who they are. An overly soft person isn't going to cut it, neither will a heavy handed person. You can't be wishy washy or overly harsh, just firm, consistent, fair. You have to have realistic expectations from the DNA that the dog brings to the table.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, not quite what I am saying.
> 
> IMO, age would only be a consideration if you don't have a qualified and capable person willing to step in to accommodate the dogs in case of an emergency or for long term considerations. If you are in good mental and physical condition, have at it. My mother had COPD yet she hiked into her mid 80s and safely lived with my dogs.
> 
> ...


You’re right, health is relative, more so age is relative. but I can tell you that most 80 year olds with copd don’t hike. 

There are 20 yo that for health purposes, imo, can not ha doe a gsd


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

And if you’d recommend the average 80yo get a gsd pup, I’d have to disagree with you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> And if you’d recommend the average 80yo get a gsd pup, I’d have to disagree with you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not recommended the average 30 year old or 80 year old get a GSD pup. I am saying that people need core essentials to own this breed as well as a knowledge of the core essentials of their chosen breed.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I do not recommended the average 30 year old or 80 year old get a GSD pup. I am saying that people need core essentials to own this breed as well as a knowledge of the core essentials of their chosen breed.


The average 30yo is much better equipped 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> The average 30yo is much better equipped
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Look at mortality rate alone. 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> Look at mortality rate alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not about age. It's about what you bring to the table, what you are made of, one's mettle.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's not about age. It's about what you bring to the table, what you are made of, one's mettle.


I don’t know if I agree or disagree bc it’s surely situational and I can definitely see your point. 

Odds are def stacked in favor of an average 30yo though. 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Odds for greater time left is stacked in favor of a 30 year old, not for being a mentally/emotionally stronger, fairer person.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Odds for greater time left is stacked in favor of a 30 year old, not for being a mentally/emotionally stronger, fairer person.


Agreed!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

In general I think if you cannot own a German Shepherd you should not own a dog. I actively steer people away from Mals, because really I see the same things repeatedly. Bad ass dogs that bite ooh I want one. To be fair I also dissuade people from Heelers and Huskies and Border Collies. 
I personally like and have owned all three, but none do well in homes were they serve as lawn ornaments. In fact in many ways a German Shepherd is more likely to fit well in an inexperienced home then any of those three. 
The breed was SUPPOSED to be a go anywhere, do any thing dog. Should be good with pets and stock, great with kids, trustworthy and steady in most situations. Forgiving of rookie mistakes, loyal to a fault. 
So here is the issue. Some breeders are breeding over the top everything and then placing dogs with whoever clicks the pay now button first. And BYB's? Well they get the dogs somewhere don't they. And those papers that say you can't breed? Only as good as the word of the person signing them.
Personally, I have seen surprisingly few issues in temperament from the dogs I rescued and placed. 
I'm not so sure that the dogs are the issue. I KNEW as a child that puppies bite, and pee, and wreck stuff. I was aware that you train puppies to be good dogs. No one researched dogs! You went out and came home with a puppy. You carpeted the kitchen with newspaper and blocked access to anywhere else. Grandma stuffed a bunch of socks in another sock, puppy ran around with a bunch of screaming kids and when the puppy was biting they enticed a game of tug. 
The complaints and issues I see today are a result of an overall lack of common sense.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> In general I think if you cannot own a German Shepherd you should not own a dog. I actively steer people away from Mals, because really I see the same things repeatedly. Bad ass dogs that bite ooh I want one. To be fair I also dissuade people from Heelers and Huskies and Border Collies.
> I personally like and have owned all three, but none do well in homes were they serve as lawn ornaments. In fact in many ways a German Shepherd is more likely to fit well in an inexperienced home then any of those three.
> The breed was SUPPOSED to be a go anywhere, do any thing dog. Should be good with pets and stock, great with kids, trustworthy and steady in most situations. Forgiving of rookie mistakes, loyal to a fault.
> So here is the issue. Some breeders are breeding over the top everything and then placing dogs with whoever clicks the pay now button first. And BYB's? Well they get the dogs somewhere don't they. And those papers that say you can't breed? Only as good as the word of the person signing them.
> ...


I agree with that ! Tons of people who don’t know how to train, raised or work a dog.

But also a lot of problem dogs used to get taken out back and shot. That may not sound nice but it’s true. Severe problem dogs were routinely culled if the dog was at fault, not somebody being a moron and getting bit, they’d get told not to be stupid. Nowadays people don’t take responsibility for that dog. If they can they rehome them to whoever takes them which if they are still intact tends to be someone who sees them as a cash cow to sell puppies from. So then those genetics are passed on.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Nscullin,
You are putting a lot of words in my mouth. The breed was originally bred to be a herding dog. As the need for herding dogs faded, the breed founder promoted the dog for military and police work. At that time, good breeders began selecting for traits that would contribute to the breed being successful as military and police dogs. One of those traits was that the dogs were stable with family and children and mistrustful with strangers. Mistrust is a useful trait but not a trait that should be in a dog that is going to be in the hands of a novice and being owned primarily as a pet. That mistrust is paired with confident aggression in strong dogs. GSDs are not supposed to be Golden Retrievers. The pet breeders, the show breeders and many of the sport breeders have selected for dogs that are not consistent with the temperament standard when the dog was consistently good at police and military work. Those dogs tended to be tough, hard headed dogs with strong aggression and the use of prey drive was not really a trait that was selected for to enhance working ability or training. Over time, schutzhund changed and effected how dogs were bred and the result is a split in the working lines into lines more suited for police and military work and dogs that can do well in sport but are not suited for police and military work. There are some dogs that can do well at both but they are not that common. The show line breeders have totally ruined the show lines in terms of a working dog and pet breeders have done the same. I don't think of a particular sport and how a dog does in it as part of a breed standard. The reason Mals do so well in PSA is that they tend to have much higher prey drive and that can mask and allow some/many dogs to push through their nerve issues and succeed in the sport. The breeding of Mals has changed too with a trend to highly social, extreme prey driven dogs and that trend is also consistent with some of the more sport oriented lines in the GSD. Highly social and extreme prey are not what made the GSD so desirable at one time as a police and military dog. I think PSA has its deficits as far as some of the expectations, but I think IGP has done a lot more harm because it is the sport of the breed and has selected for podium dogs that lack the traits (nerves in particular) consistent with strong police/military dogs. It you have ever watched the Westminster Dog Show, a breed will come out and the announcer will give a brief summary of what the dog was bred for and excels at, but very few if any of those dogs can still do what they were bred for because all the emphasis in breeding is for physical traits that will allow them to win in conformation. A similar thing has happened in protections sports to a lesser degree. There are some sport breeders who don't want their dogs to have any type of aggression other than predatory/prey aggression. And sports tend not to require anything but prey drive.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

My ideas of German Shepherds mostly come from my 8 month old working line GSD compared to the other dogs I’ve raised and seen raised in the family.

GSDs are smart, easily trained, and extremely loyal. These are great traits and I can understand why many people are attracted to the breed.

That said, I’ve put more work into this dog than any other dog I’ve had. I believe they are work to get to a stable, balanced, take anywhere pet. They are very strong dogs that can be too much for many people. As Chip said, aggression, prey, mistrust are all traits these dogs should have too different degrees. I think most people wanting a pet or with just pet experience would have difficulty understanding these drives without help. It seems many people want a cute dog to insert in life that will just fit rather than a dog that needs a considerable amount of attention. Nothing wrong with that but that isn’t what I consider a working line GSD.

So if the majority of people I know in real life said, “Your dog is so great, maybe I’ll get one like yours.” I would start the attempt to dissuade.

(It almost sounds like I’m complaining about my GSD. I love him. He loves me. I love working with him. He is beyond compare.)


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You make a good point. I am training my dog for sport and train with a club 2-3 times a week and almost every interaction I have with my dog is an opportunity to teach him something. The sport training builds your relationship with your dog and teaches him things he can and can't do. Most people, even with traditional pet dogs don't take the time to train their dog in basic obedience or even walk them. A lot of these people have children and I have no idea how you can correctly raise a child and not know how to train a pet in basic obedience. A well bred GSD requires a much larger commitment and that is why I don't think the breed should be diluted and turned into a pet type dog. They can be great companions, but need something to channel their drive into and to keep them mentally stimulated.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Not sure how related this is to your topic but I agree with Chip regarding the high degree of sociability and high prey drive found in the breed today. I believe those traits bring on a whole new set of problems that should come with their own cautions.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I try not to dissuade people from a breed, but try to...I don't know...play the Devil's Advocate? Ask questions and make them think about their choice. I'd be more likely to try and dissuade someone from getting a dog in general if I know them well enough to know they will not be willing to make changes in their life to accommodate the new household member...or someone has a track record of saying one thing and never following through. 
I could see my female in an active pet home - one that did walks and played fetch. We do a lot of that. My boy, on the other hand, needs a bit more than that. He needs a firmer hand and, no doubt, would probably be too much for the average pet home...especially if there was no training brought into the picture. 

MAWL and/or Chip - can you describe what you mean by high degree of sociability and the high prey drive you see in the breed today? I think I understand what you mean - I think I see examples of it on Facebook (and some people seem to really like it) but I'm not quite sure I follow this separate conversation.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

An interesting thread . . . Returning to the age aspect of breed guarding for a moment: framing it as 30 year olds versus 80 year olds is kind of a straw man comparison. Even with age expectancy creeping up, 80 pushes the upper end of the actuarial table for a lot of folks. I'm talking averages, of course, not individuals and you can surely find fit and active 80 year olds.

But if you framed it as who is usually better positioned to own a dog that tends to benefit from a fenced yard, can have expensive health issues, and tends to like being a central focus of your life, then someone in the 50-75 age range might often be a better owner candidate than someone say, 20-35. It would vary, and lest this kick over a hornets nest, let me say I have two children under 30 who are quite responsible, stable and own pets. Perhaps to my point,though, they like the breed but are not GSD owners.

The upper age demographic I list is more likely to own a home, probably a little less likely to make a cross country move for the job of their dreams, or to start launching a family that might displace their dog as center of their attention. 

Land shark puppies can be physically demanding, agreed. But they also try your patience. And remembering 20- 30 year old me, the current version is definitely more patient. Also better positioned to pay hefty vet bills (though no one welcomes those, they can occur with this breed). 
And to the OP's point, perhaps, many though not all 80 year olds will self-guard, i.e. opt out of the physical demands of the breed and the stresses of puppyhood. But not all, and if they are reasonably physically fit, and are otherwise up for it, I don't know why they should be warned off or guarded against by breeders/sellers/rescues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You make a good point. I am training my dog for sport and train with a club 2-3 times a week and almost every interaction I have with my dog is an opportunity to teach him something. The sport training builds your relationship with your dog and teaches him things he can and can't do. Most people, even with traditional pet dogs don't take the time to train their dog in basic obedience or even walk them. A lot of these people have children and I have no idea how you can correctly raise a child and not know how to train a pet in basic obedience. A well bred GSD requires a much larger commitment and that is why I don't think the breed should be diluted and turned into a pet type dog. They can be great companions, but need something to channel their drive into and to keep them mentally stimulated.


I think one of my issues/benefits was that I tended to raise the dogs and the kids the same. So some rules were non negotiable and some had wiggle room, but just as an example: when we would go out it was grab baby and toddler and puppy and off we go. When I said knock it of I expected that to happen from all of them. When I said go to your room I was addressing all of them. When I said manners please, again all of them. My step daughter told someone she was crate trained. My son was very proud of the fact that he was obedience trained by the age of two, lol. My dogs interacted appropriately with the world because frankly I never offered another option.
I think a huge issue with dogs today is that some people overthink things. OMG my puppy growled! That must mean it's going to be aggressive! I better get on line and look up aggressive dogs!
My son bit me once, and I actually redirected! Lol. All of my dogs know what bedtime means AND they understand that any play after that is frowned on.
Kids, puppies, all the same.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Many ( most ) people are going to get the dog / breeding / line etc. they want regardless of what others say.

Those that solicit the advice of the"experienced" as part of their due diligence in choosing their dog are a fewer number.....but certainly wiser IMO.

Assuming your unrequested "advice" will make a difference...borders on egotistical in the eyes of others...even if well intended.

The process of acquiring a dog tends to be guided more by emotions than a pragmatic approach for many.....

Experience is a great teacher as they say......but we all have to start somewhere.

As the fortune cookie saying goes..." A wise person learns from their own mistakes but a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others"


Now I must get back to trying to snatch the pebble from Kan's hand.


SuperG


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Katsugsd,
There are different opinions on high sociability in working breeds and some see it as an asset ans others see it as a fault. One line of thought is that highly social dogs are very confident and are more likely to have very good nerves, which is probably true to a large extent. Others think dogs like GSDs and Mals should have a degree of mistrust so that a stranger can't just walk away with your dog. With mistrust, you are likely to see more nerve issues because that taps into defensive aggression which always involves worry or fear in the dog. So GSDs that let everyone and anyone pet them, or don't bark when someone comes around your vehicle or yard tend to lack the protective instinct and they are motivated to bite almost exclusively out of prey. The standard calls for GSDs to be aloof to strangers. Some prefer to see more than aloofness and want to see mistrust. You also have to factor in defensive thresholds, reactivity, nerves, etc. As an example, the decoy I work with, when not in a suit, can take my dog's leash and show me how to improve on some obedience training. But if he tried to come into my house, he would likely get bit and wouldn't try because my dog would display overt aggression. So he has a degree of social appropriateness and a degree of protective/territorial aggression. All dogs are different and different people have different preferences for the type of dog they prefer. I don't want a dog that a stranger could come into my yard and walk away with or that would not bite for real outside of a sport exercise.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Katsugsd,
> There are different opinions on high sociability in working breeds and some see it as an asset ans others see it as a fault. One line of thought is that highly social dogs are very confident and are more likely to have very good nerves, which is probably true to a large extent. Others think dogs like GSDs and Mals should have a degree of mistrust so that a stranger can't just walk away with your dog. With mistrust, you are likely to see more nerve issues because that taps into defensive aggression which always involves worry or fear in the dog. So GSDs that let everyone and anyone pet them, or don't bark when someone comes around your vehicle or yard tend to lack the protective instinct and they are motivated to bite almost exclusively out of prey. The standard calls for GSDs to be aloof to strangers. Some prefer to see more than aloofness and want to see mistrust. You also have to factor in defensive thresholds, reactivity, nerves, etc. As an example, the decoy I work with, when not in a suit, can take my dog's leash and show me how to improve on some obedience training. But if he tried to come into my house, he would likely get bit and wouldn't try because my dog would display overt aggression. So he has a degree of social appropriateness and a degree of protective/territorial aggression. All dogs are different and different people have different preferences for the type of dog they prefer. I don't want a dog that a stranger could come into my yard and walk away with or that would not bite for real outside of a sport exercise.


Chip, I know you are familiar with Armin Winkler's stance on social/active aggression. Can you tie that in to your comment?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Honestly, I think dogs with social aggression as defined by Winkler are as rare as hen's teeth, especially in the states due to the trait having been largely bred out. I think what some call social aggression is defensive aggression and defensive aggression, according to his definition is not part of social aggression.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I see a large amount of breed guarding in malinois. I makes sense. Malinois have too much energy, intelligence, drive to work, drive to bite, than most people can handle. But for someone who is willing to adapt, if they get a solid, confident dog, malinois are fairly easy to live with. But you have to understand the mixture of softness and hardness in the breed and be a fair, confident leader and understand how to deal with the "bite drive". 

Malinois are lifestyle dogs. They are not additions to your life. People who understand that will likely do fine with a well bred malinois that suits their needs. People who don't will probably hate their dog. 

Breed guarders don't really help. If anything, they push people to the bad breeders with the nerve bag, soft, low drive malinois that are the worst of everything.

Until Covid, I was happy to meet anyone interested in my dogs and show them the range of behaviors they can expect. The drive, the energy, the alertness (twitchiness) Some people love it, some I never hear from again. The saying "show, don't tell" works well for malinois. They are far from the breed for everyone, but in my experience have never been unpredictable - in fact, they are some of the best dogs for snuggling. 

And, I have to say, there is nothing more beautiful and satisfying to me than watching my malinois work for me- whatever that work is even just sprinting to me after a recall. The joy these dogs get from life is contagious!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Muskeg show don't tell is a great thing and why I like to introduce people to Shadows world. I get so many "I can get a German Shepherd for $800 bucks". And if you do her is what you could end up with. Weak nerves, fear aggression, inability to settle. The whining, pacing, shaking. The 24/7 management. A form of breed guarding I suppose. If you want a German Shepherd, get a good one because the bad ones in inexperienced hands seldom come to good ends.
I like Mals, as working dogs although I still prefer Shepherds. It's a personal thing, and I think your approach is much more effective. So the next time someone asks me about them I am directing them to you!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I see a large amount of breed guarding in malinois. I makes sense. Malinois have too much energy, intelligence, drive to work, drive to bite, than most people can handle. But for someone who is willing to adapt, if they get a solid, confident dog, malinois are fairly easy to live with. But you have to understand the mixture of softness and hardness in the breed and be a fair, confident leader and understand how to deal with the "bite drive".
> 
> Malinois are lifestyle dogs. They are not additions to your life. People who understand that will likely do fine with a well bred malinois that suits their needs. People who don't will probably hate their dog.
> 
> ...


I always say my black Mal is the happiest dog on the face of the earth.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Going off of Chip's comment. In my mind there is a giant issue with categorizing mistrust and other nervy behaviors as aloof and as such excusing them because of it. The breed standard calls for an aloof dog that won't seek attention out from strangers but will accept it if needed. So a dog that barks with it's tail between its leg and then goes for a butt bite as soon as they turn around is not an aloof dog. That's a nervy fearful dog. A dog that has to be muzzled when strangers come over cause it'll try to bite any strangers isn't necessarily an aloof dog. There's a huge host of factors that do go into that though including training, both lack of and errors. Fearful dogs that learn that biting people gets them to go away can become very active biters where they bite first ask questions later. They might seem brave and confident because they'll run up to people but they've just learned that biting works. (People experienced in dog body language can tell the dog is fearful, but the general public often can't. They often equate fearful nervy barking dogs with protective.)

But I have seen many many aloof dogs in my years since I am around a lot of ranchers and many herding breeds are friendly with strangers. But there are also a lot that aren't. While at a big gathering the guy brought one of his dogs with. The dog would go and check people out but wasn't particularly interested in getting pets. If he thought he might get some treats from your plate he'd stick around and beg and wouldn't trot off to go do his own thing if you pet him because food was worth it. (He was like a cute wriggly puppy when getting attention from his owner.)

Protective instincts are a good way to go, over fearfulness and mistrust IMO. Just look at mastiffs and LGDs. They often require an experienced handler and there is variety based on what you're going with. But say the well bred mastiffs I've been around. They have managed to retain protective instincts and while they aren't for everybody the ones I've met are social and confident dogs. They do need carefully managed though because they will be willing to bite somebody if the need arises. But they're also a dog that can be fine with people coming over to the house as long as they're properly trained and the visitors know appropriate dog behaviors. For example not leaning over a strange dog's head and kissing it's snoot. 

LGDs can get tricky because they aren't necessarily bred to be social or socialized and you don't want them wandering off to say hi to people so maybe less applicable there. Except in the mindset that they are a livestock working breed which shepherds started out as. But even them, many aren't going to mindlessly go attack a human who comes over by the sheep. Will they watch you? Most definitely but that doesn't mean they'll attack if you aren't harassing the sheep. They stay aloof and do their job and keep an eye on the potential threat. My mother's dog when she was younger would keep them safe from if the geese got too randy, wouldn't attack the geese as they were part of the pack as well but would place himself between the geese and the children. Which is the trend I've noticed in protective breeds. When they're protecting somebody is to place themselves between the human and the perceived threat, they may not bark or outwardly react but they'll position themselves so they're able to defend if necessary.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I totally agree. Mistrust is not a specific trait. It can be fear based or protection based. That is why some people prefer very social dogs because the odds of when they bite is not connected to fear. The other side of the coin is that some argue the breeds are becoming too social and loosing some of the edge that can be an advantage. That is why I prefer a dog with a higher threshold for defense but is not a social butterfly and has some protective instincts. Some very defensive dogs are strong and confident, especially with good training, but many are nervy and won't fight a man if the fight gets intense. The more extreme high prey super social Mals will stay in the fight because prey is such a lustful drive and that lust prevents fear and social dogs tend to have very good nerves. As I said, the issue is if you need a perimeter dog or property protection dog, many of those dogs will not be effective or need special training.


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