# Am I doing this right?



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Am I doing this right? I have, by way of the mighty Frisbee, taught Shadow that 'out' means drop it right now and 'leave it' means walk away, return to me and wait for the release to go back to what you were doing. Yesterday it worked perfectly, barely, but is this the right way to do it? I am also working on redirect by way of teaching her the difference between 'ball', 'stick' and 'frisbee'. and working on impulse control using the same things but making her sit and wait. Is this ok or am I creating a bigger issue?
Yesterday I let her run loose for a minute while we were way up in the mountains, and she did exactly what I feared and took off tracking something. I was able to redirect to her Frisbee and get her back but barely. She won't be loose again until I do more work and get a GPS tracker for her collar, 'Here' is not something she does well which is why we use 'Bring'. Fifty percent with 'here' versus ninety-nine with 'bring', it was a no brainer for me.
Keep in mind that this is a dog that could care less about pleasing me, she is one hundred percent self serving. If what she wants makes me happy that's just a bonus. She is RULED my her nose, absolutely. And she is really good, nothing gets by that nose. How do I teach her to leave a track and return? She will literally do ANYTHING to follow that nose. I don't want to follow some animal for miles until she decides she is done with it, but I don't want to deter the nose either.


----------



## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

Sorry if this sounds mean but I got a funny image of your dog mixed with the fruit loops tucan. I wish I had some advice but Gunther only comes to me in the yard, haven't dared tried taking him off leash to try anything yet.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ellimaybel said:


> Sorry if this sounds mean but I got a funny image of your dog mixed with the fruit loops tucan. I wish I had some advice but Gunther only comes to me in the yard, haven't dared tried taking him off leash to try anything yet.


Not mean at all! I sing the fruit loops song, while we are walking!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

How old is your puppy? 

Have you been following these hints/tips? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

And if you are able to start young, our pups WANT to stay near and with us when in a new place hiking.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> How old is your puppy?
> 
> Have you been following these hints/tips? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html
> 
> ...


Shadow is 3.5 years old, I have had her since about 18 days old. And even as a really little pup she was largely unconcerned with my whereabouts. I have a video of her at 4 weeks or so, ignoring me to go exploring. The ONLY thing she cares about is the scent her nose is on, and her Frisbee.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Is this the same as all the other GSD forums? If I can't trace her pedigree for a hundred years she must be no good? Or I can have one rescue as long as I have one from an approved breeder as well?

All I asked for was some simple advice on how to control a scent-driven dog, some guidance on whether or not I was doing it right. I don't honestly know why I bother. Every GSD club, forum or page I have ever been near is the same. 

Sabi was the greatest dog I ever met, loosing her has left a hole in my heart that will never heal. And now I have no way to communicate with Shadow. I am trying to do right by Shadow, and all I asked for was some guidance. I know she isn't the best dog around, I get that she isn't normal, but I love dogs, ALL dogs, not just the ones that are 'worthy'. 

I have spent 3 years trying to give this dog the best life I can, and I will do that for the rest of her life. It would be easier with help, but I got this far alone.

Enjoy your forum.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Where did that come from ????


Whoa...................


SuperG


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Where did that come from ????
> 
> 
> Whoa...................
> ...


Seriously, OP, what?


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I avoided commenting on this because I figured all the replies would be either 1. if she doesn't come back don't let her off leash, or 2. Start correcting her when she doesn't come back to teach her that it's not an option to keep sniffing until you give her the release word to do so

My dog was similar. She's super independent but we established recall is not optional and she comes every single time.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I'm almost wondering if the OP didn't get responses quick enough and thought they were being ignored...


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyoung2153 said:


> I'm almost wondering if the OP didn't get responses quick enough and thought they were being ignored...


Then yes, all forums are like this..

We aren't your personal assistant on call 24/7 to answer your problems. 

AND there were replies. Just not quick enough?


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Right.. wait you aren't my personal assitant??? 

No I agree with you.. I have just seen previous posters that got all kinds of butt hurt when they posted and got no replies in like 5 minutes.. actually almost exactly this reaction. I looked at the times of the original post and just assumed that what the OP must have though.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

No...I thought one of the perks of this forum was that I was entitled to a minimum of 3 personal assistants...on call 24/7.

Hey...my glass needs more ice in it....hello?? Do I even need to ask?


SuperG


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> Right.. wait you aren't my personal assitant???
> 
> No I agree with you.. I have just seen previous posters that got all kinds of butt hurt when they posted and got no replies in like 5 minutes.. actually almost exactly this reaction. I looked at the times of the original post and just assumed that what the OP must have though.


Yes. Me. *Directs everyone too sudbury girl post for opinions. 

That is all.
  

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Wow imagine if you were the op's bf or gf and didn't respond to a text within 5 minutes..... 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ha.. oh dear.. haha. I feel like I should be getting upset... I posted something this morning and no one said a thing..  

I really was going to offer advice to this one too.. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Since my account isn't deleted yet, days are a bit longer then minutes.

But thanks. 

I joined this forum for 2 reasons, to find a breeder I could possibly purchase a pup from and to see if anyone could help with Shadow. 

I thought for a minute we might be ok here.

I needed help. I asked for help. No one helped, not many could recommend a breeder either although there are several on here and apparently dozens of other threads offering suggestions to others. It's ok I found one.

I don't have a perfect dog, I have the dog that was supposed to die, but I lost Sabi just a few months ago and I will be damned if I am losing Shadow to. 

Don't need a personal assistant, don't need someone 24/7, don't need yet another person thinking they are better then me. Just wanted help. Not for me, but to give Shadow absolutely every advantage I could.

I do not however need any advice from people who find someone's pain amusing, who would ridicule someone for needing assistance or who would mock someone they do not know. Thank you all for the courtesy and decency I have found here.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

It's just the way it goes sometimes... I usually don't get a ton of responses either but no one really gets anything out of helping me so I take the advice I do get and appreciate it. It has nothing to do with whether or not my dog is no good or great, no one here knows me how could it be something personal like that? 

I'm glad you found a breeder, there are questions about breeders almost every day, that could be part of why not many replied. You could search your town or state and the word "breeder" in the forum's search bar and I bet things would have come up. That's what I do when no one answers, I try a search to see if anyone else has the same issue and it's rare that I don't find anything. Sorry you felt this way I know that no one was trying to make you mad or ignoring you on purpose because they don't approve of your dog. Lots of members have rescues and dogs that don't have pedigrees.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

lol


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I think it was more surprising that you just got upset for no reason. Sometimes threads get lost depending when you post them and you have to bring them back up. A simple "anyone else have advice?" And it will bring it to the top of the list so peiple will see it better.

I cant tell you the number of times I've posted things that I really wanted advice on and got like 3 people. And that's fine sometimes I get none. People respond to what they can help with. And often if it's been asked before a ton of times people will overlook it because you can search for that. 

No one wants you to leave.. we do want to help you but you've got to be less sensitive on here. People joke.. people even get nasty sometimes.. but people also offer awesome advice when you come at it the right way.. I noticed your post and wanted to give advice, butt then you went all crazy and no one wanted to help.. 

Dont take things personal. No one knows you or what you're going through... which maybe be rough... but we dont know that. We are human and joke around.. take it easy. 

Hope you come back and participate with a different mind set it really is rather addicting on here 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

So my advice for your original question is this...

I think what you are training sounds fine.. be consistent and she'll get it. Dont start changing things up because you get impatient or she doesnt do it one day... personal experience.. it'll mess them up more. 

As for off lead and being ruled by her nose. Id say get her into tracking or even SAR maybe one day... there are other nose work type things but for now.. no off lead anything. You need her recal 100% solid. So work on that with her. How have you been training that? Have you donenit with distraction or anything? 

You can also play nose game with her, hide and seekn and find it are awesome fun for them 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Restrained Recall games with high value treats or toys are fun. You just need another person to hold Shadow back while you tempt her with the treat or toy and call her. You can teach the dog a hand signal to go with the recall word. When the dog is really struggling to get to you, the other person lets her go. Then when she reaches you, have a party!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I wouldn't let the dog off leash until your recall is really solid.

I would immediately start working on engagement, NILIF, lots of positive training built around handler interaction, which means teaching the dog that ALL the fun stuff comes from interacting with you, not chasing and possessing something.

IMO, the best way to do this would be with a trainer. If you don't want to go that route, I would suggest the Michael Ellis DVDs: Power of Training with Food, Power of Tug and Recall.

Watch them all until you hate them and then start training the dog.


And if I may make an observation; if you are constantly having the same difficulties with every board and club you attempt to be a part of, it may be that your expectations are a bit high. If you have some patience and understand that while there are thousands of people that visit this board every day, the vast majority of those people don't post. Sometimes it takes a bit before someone will replay. Don't give up and keep bumping your thread until you get the help you are after.

ETA: I also didn't check the thread out because of the vague title, but that's just me. I don't really have the time to read everything.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Restrained Recall games with high value treats or toys are fun. You just need another person to hold Shadow back while you tempt her with the treat or toy and call her. You can teach the dog a hand signal to go with the recall word. When the dog is really struggling to get to you, the other person lets her go. Then when she reaches you, have a party!


Thank you for the reply. Shadow won't do that, we tried. At the first bit of resistance she stops, if we continue to frustrate she will bite. Now she is gentle, but I don't want to encourage teeth on skin with a fear aggressive dog.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I wouldn't get too worked up over the non response, it happens to most of us. I've gotten some good advice and other times completely blown off, not a big deal, try bumping your thread occasionally might help. Timing helps with having the right people signed on with the knowledge to answer your question. Most of the time if I'm persistent, I'll get past my problems without help or get help from someone local, just keep looking/reading.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> So my advice for your original question is this...
> 
> I think what you are training sounds fine.. be consistent and she'll get it. Dont start changing things up because you get impatient or she doesnt do it one day... personal experience.. it'll mess them up more.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I just wanted to verify that I wasn't doing something wrong. She plays find it with me, it's her favorite game. I have a couple of scent kits and she has been playing with them most of her life.

Just to clarify, I know I got upset but please understand that I have been getting grief about Shadow all her life. And I got a lot of it the other day, like several hours worth. The previous 2 forums I was on briefly told me that she was not a GSD and I should join a rescue site, and that calling her a GSD was a disservice to the breed and I should be ashamed of her.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't respond to a lot of threads because someone has already provided the advice I would have or I don't feel qualified to answer the question posed. 

This is probably one of the best forums for GSD advice and just good all round dog training/health advice on the net. IMO.

It's got it's bumps, rough spots and personalities, they all do.

There are some people who frequent here that really and truly are real life experts too, they give their time and advice for free here. That makes it worth it.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I can understand why you'd be upset, if people are saying you should be ashamed of your dog, and other negative things. Why listen to them in the first place? Tons of us here have experience with "issues" that our less-than-perfect-but-perfect-to-us GSDs, past or present, have taught us how to deal with. And actually make us better trainers, in the long run.

IDK what advice to offer to you. You've mentioned that the ecollar didn't work, but this might be something to continue working with - if you take Lou up on his very generous offer, this might be what you need. But not knowing your training style makes it difficult to suggest things. Like, when Shadow blows off a recall, how do you react to that?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How old is this dog? What training has she already had?

Without knowing any details, I'd suggest taking a training class that focuses on recalls and if the dog is old enough and your goal is off leash hiking, consider and ecollar.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

yeah, i'm wondering what kind of formal training she has had. my year and a half old female has been has been going to weekly advanced off leash training classes for 7 months now and she's far from perfect. i doubt any dog is perfect that's why training never ends.

i don't have much experience with dogs. wife and i got our first dog a little over a year ago. so i can only comment on my limited experience.

we use an ecollar that works great but only in class, there really is nowhere local outside to let dogs off leash. but i noticed in the house if she fails to come the first time all i have to do is yell her name in a super loud thunderous serious voice and she will immediately stop doing whatever she was doing, then she comes when i say it again.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thank you all. Yes I am touchy about Shadow and yes I will work on it. Promise.

Shadow is 3.5 and has had no formal training. She has health and developmental issues which make things a bit difficult and she is a poorly bred, nervous, mess. But she's my girl.
Some trainers won't work with her as she hasn't been spayed, some just say she isn't worth it, and the 'working' dog trainers in this area either can't be bothered or aren't using methods I would allow on any of my dogs, never mind this one.

Due to extreme sensitivity and fear, I use all positive. A lot of shaping behavior and management. Just to clarify, I don't 'let' Shadow loose, ever. Someone else untied her while I was occupied with Bud. At that point I sort of thought well might as well see what happens. 

David Winners, are you saying the Frisbee shouldn't be used? I'm not sure that's possible since she lives for it, actually quivers waiting for it and it is the only way I have found to get focus, but I can try. I use it to get her to come to me, since she always brings it back.

So basically I have a dog who isn't overly attached to humans, is well behaved and friendly in the house, shuts down under pressure, can run weave poles and tunnels, but refuses to come when called and bites if she's frightened.
I have had her all of her life, and am 100% committed. 
And yes I will continue to work with Lou. My goal for her is something involving her nose as a job.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm certainly not saying you can't use the frisbee. I think that this dog needs engagement work more than anything. There is a disconnect between you and the way to move forward is by closing that gap.

If the dog lives for the frisbee, that's a good reward, but the interaction with you should be if higher value eventually.

It's not the specific reward that is of the most importance, but how that reward is implemented.

David Winners


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I'm certainly not saying you can't use the frisbee. I think that this dog needs engagement work more than anything. There is a disconnect between you and the way to move forward is by closing that gap.
> 
> If the dog lives for the frisbee, that's a good reward, but the interaction with you should be if higher value eventually.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying! I do try to get her to connect with me, she is improving, she just doesn't seem to really care for people. That's what brought this to a head, my other dog died and without her I have lost the ability to communicate with Shadow it seems. When I came home without Sabi, Shadow withdrew and I was too upset to help her. Now I need to repair the damage I did being selfish.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How important is the recall? Is she missing out because she can't be trusted off leash? 

Those may sound like dumb questions, but I also have a dog (adopted at 1.5 years old, now going on 8 years) with NO off leash recall (his recall is great on leash, but he's super leash-smart) who is NEVER off leash unless it's a fenced area I'm familiar with (I am positive he can't get out). I say this as someone who has trained and titled many dogs in many venues. I don't consider myself or my dog a failure. He also has zero drive for toys of any kind (not even fetch or frisbees), he's very social and loves people and dogs but is a softer dog, no drive to train/work, just a very happy, lazy, laid back dog. I don't really stress the issue of recall since given his history of blowing us off, I'd never trust him off leash anyway. I have nothing to prove with this dog. He's perfectly happy going on leash walks or being on a long line if we're in the woods or at a new place. We have a few fenced parks where he can run free for a while and play with other dogs. He's been through many training classes including agility and earning his CGC twice. I wouldn't say I've "given up" on his recall, I just don't think it's a priority anymore. Like I said, I'd never trust him anyway. My job is to keep him happy and *safe*. I don't NEED to be able to cut this dog loose, he doesn't care whether he's hiking on a 15' leash or off leash. He doesn't engage with people using toys or traditional training methods, but he is a very sweet, social dog and people-oriented. Despite his lack of titles compared to my competition dogs, he is my heart dog.


----------



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I was having problems with my 18mth bitch. She has other dog issues but I always felt she wasn't really that fussed about me. She rarely made eye contact and I think she bonded more to our older dog than us. 
Anyway, a trainer suggested I try teaching her to 'watch'. I started by holding her ball (she's ball obsessed) out in my right and not throwing it till she looked at me. At first I took a quick glance from her or even just moving her head towards me and then I started asking for direct eye contact and building the length of time she looked at me. I don't think she was as independent as Shadow is but encouraging eye contact has made a massive difference. She has to look directly at me before she does anything, eats, gets off the lead, gets her toys, walks in to the house. She is a lot more focused on me when we're out. 
Also, my dogs a chaser. She'll go after anything which can be a problem with recall. I used David Ryan's book, 'Stop! How to control predatory chasing in Dogs'. It's the second time I've used his methods and have had brilliant results. As your dog is frisbee obsessed it might work with your tracking problem. 

Good luck. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I guess she isn't missing out, except that she loves to run and even my large yard isn't much room. I have a 20 foot line that I use when we hike, or when we are tracking. 
Because I want her to track, I don't want to discourage following her nose I just need her to understand that she needs to hear me and not just romp off into the bush whenever she likes.

I am trying to find a balance, I want to channel her natural drives not destroy them.


----------



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

That books really good. It builds a command in to stop the chase. It doesn't eliminate the behaviour so it should still be good for tracking. She will still take off after any rabbit or bird that gets in her path but she now has a command I use to stop her. It's not a harsh method so she still enjoys a good chase. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am looking for the book. Thank you.

She makes me feel like I failed her.


----------



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

You've not given up on her so you've not failed her. If you're grieving for your other dog it's bound to make everything with Shadow more frustrating. 

Try not to be so hard on yourself. You obviously love your dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

*Update*

So, I have carefully read through all of the advice, watched some videos, read some books, done some soul searching and moved forward.
When Sabi died, I backed away and so did Shadow. Sounds funny to say a dog is grieving but both of mine are, and so am I. This has caused a huge disconnect between all of us, but especially between Shadow and I. 
There is a massive difference between a pet relationship and a partner relationship, and that is something I need to come to terms with, it's my problem not Shadows.
We are working on her recall, with a new command, and have also been drilling on out and leave it while tracking. Aside from that we went back to my puppy 101 and have been working on attention, following directional changes and rewards for checking in. The Frisbee has been relegated to end of training release. 
Dusted off the long line and we are making use of that as well.
She is progressing and thrilled with the attention. I have been in touch with Lou Castle, and will be moving forward with that as well. He pinpointed exactly where I screwed up and explained how to fix it.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sabis mom said:


> So, I have carefully read through all of the advice, watched some videos, read some books, done some soul searching and moved forward.
> When Sabi died, I backed away and so did Shadow. Sounds funny to say a dog is grieving but both of mine are, and so am I. This has caused a huge disconnect between all of us, but especially between Shadow and I.
> There is a massive difference between a pet relationship and a partner relationship, and that is something I need to come to terms with, it's my problem not Shadows.
> We are working on her recall, with a new command, and have also been drilling on out and leave it while tracking. Aside from that we went back to my puppy 101 and have been working on attention, following directional changes and rewards for checking in. The Frisbee has been relegated to end of training release.
> ...



This makes me very happy to read. You and Shadow will be better in the long run!!! I am glad you were willing to take stock, listen to advise(good and bad) and move forward!! Sometimes we don't have the dog we want, but we get the dog we need. Look forward to hearing of you progression as a team. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Well done! Like gsdsar, I'm also really pleased for you. The effect of losing a dog can't be underestimated but both you and shadow will come out of this stronger than ever. Let us know how you get on. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------

