# A vent from a self taught schutzhund lover



## FussingWithDiesel (Apr 23, 2021)

I posted some months ago about my dog's issues when playing with me. Want to thank everyone that was in that thread trying to help me out. This seems like a very nice forum and I've read a lot of good threads here. 

I live in an island in the middle of the atlantic. There are no schutzhund schools here. I work part time with a behaviour trainer I became friends with after asking for some general behaviour tips about my dog, and learned a lot from him, but not about dog sports. 

Diesel is 14 a month old, german show line black german shepherd.
I got fascinated with training dogs and schutzhund a year ago and got him. I always loved dogs but wanted to get on another level when it comes to the connection I have with one dog in particular. 

So with no schools around I started reading books, and watching videos from reliable sources of information. Not random tips here and there. He is pretty neat with functional obedience. I've worked on that since he was a puppy and solidified our relationship with obedience, training with food and play. I think I've given him a pretty solid structure when it comes to living with humans. 

Well, now there is the real part. I really want to do a BH with him. I'm not even thinking about IPO and more advanced trials. But I'm self taught, and an unexperienced trainer with lots and ambition but unexperienced nonetheless. 

Our training started with food as he is very food motivated. Then I started thinking training was getting really boring for both him and me, as it was just countless repetitions and none of us were really having fun. 
That's when I started looking into playing games with him, and someone at this forum tiped Ivan Balabanov. I bought his possession games and chase and catch 2.0 videos. Hey, if I'm not paying for schutzhund classes I might as well invest in something else right? 

I'm going to make a few points so things get better summarized and more readable:


Diesel has clear understading of his commands. He performs them very well and quickly when food is the motivator. If the motivator is throwing a ball or using a flirt pole, which he loves both, he will not comply so easily. He still does it but more sloppier and takes a lot more time, and sometimes I need to ask a 2nd or 3rd time for the command. Am I missing corrections here? I'm 100% sure he is in drive during this;
I loved Ivan's videos, worth every penny IMO but I can never get my dog in the state of mind he gets his. Probably because of his 40 years of experience and the genetics in his dogs. Anyway I've watched his videos more that 20 times back to back;
Diesel is a chewer. If I don't have his favourite ball on a flirt pole he will prefer to lay down and chew it than play with me. I try to do what he finds rewarding, even playing spirited games of keep away with him, throwing again every time he comes back, letting him win and have his victory lap. But I'm still sure I haven't unlocked him;
He never jumps on me like I see other dogs do with their owners when training. It's like he is somehow bored/contained;
After watching Ivan's videos I spent nearly 2 months only playing with him. No obedience until he gets addicted to the games. He still is not addicted but time is passing and I've thrown a little bit of fussing during play again so he doesn't get rusty;
As it is suggested by a lot of trainers, I've watched him play with other dogs. His favourite thing is picking an object and running away with it in his mouth, so keep away. Any ideias on how to translate that into a game between us, but with rules?

I get really de motivated sometimes as I see little progress being made. Maybe I need to improve my relationship with him. I mean I can train every day and have decent sessions but it never gets to that "Ha ha!" level. 

I've been doing a lot of offleash hikes with him so we get closer as a team, exploring and working on recalls during that and we've been having a blast in some beautifull woods near our house. 

Sorry for the wall of text guys. Just venting as I am alone as a schutzhund enthusiast in this island in the middle of the ocean. If you have any tips that might occur feel free to post the as we will appreciate it a lot. 

Happy trainings.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Most dogs love keep away. I play with them. I chase them and then I get them to chase me. For my dogs the chase switches when I touch them or they touch me, sort of like tag. We stop when I say enough. I also put gloves on and sort of wrestle and allow biting, or we play foot games when I put shoes or boots on and sort of kick them/push them while they bite my feet.
My current dog is never excited to see me, everyone else is her best friend. But it's always me she sleeps near, asks for things, hides behind and follows. When I leave she just sort of shuts off until I return, regardless of who is with her. 
Don't take it personally, its just how some dogs are. 
I have no advice on training, my dog doesn't listen.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well... he’s a show line.
You can train all you want, but a show line will only have so much desire to work. I have a friend who worked her show line at a club and got teased by the other members, because although the dog was great for a show line, he could never rise to the level of his working line brethren. 
Now, that friend has a working line. She says the difference is huge.
Learn all you can with Diesel, but don’t be too hard on yourself or him. It’s just not in his genetics.
Finally, I am willing to bet he is better trained than 99.9% of the dogs on your island.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

You might also want to sign up for Dave Kroyer it’s relatively inexpensive Ivan trains mals they are high drive Try not to compare your dog to his You don’t have to have perfect obedience to pass the BH


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’ll start off by saying I am working on my first schutzhund dog. So I’m just sharing my experience. 

I’ve seen what I consider an amazing trainer play with her dog for nearly two years before asking for real obedience in drive. It’s inspiring but incredibly difficult to put in action because it feels like you’re accomplishing little. So don’t be too hard on yourself or Diesel for two months. 

I also think that toy verse food can introduce prey locking which could give slower responses to commands because of the prey mindset. Dave Kroyer had a nice free Friday about this on prey sits.

I think all dogs love keep away. I do a version of this with my boy that’s a tug-run-fuss and he thinks it’s great fun. Let me pose a question: if there are five balls laying on the field, will Diesel grab any ball and have fun or is the ‘live’ ball (the ball you are engaged with) better? If he’ll take any ball, I’d consider using at least two balls.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Well... he’s a show line.
> You can train all you want, but a show line will only have so much desire to work. I have a friend who worked her show line at a club and got teased by the other members, because although the dog was great for a show line, he could never rise to the level of his working line brethren.
> Now, that friend has a working line. She says the difference is huge.
> Learn all you can with Diesel, but don’t be too hard on yourself or him. It’s just not in his genetics.
> Finally, I am willing to bet he is better trained than 99.9% of the dogs on your island.


Exactly what I found when I got a working line! It was like day and night!


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## FussingWithDiesel (Apr 23, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> Well... he’s a show line.
> You can train all you want, but a show line will only have so much desire to work. I have a friend who worked her show line at a club and got teased by the other members, because although the dog was great for a show line, he could never rise to the level of his working line brethren.
> Now, that friend has a working line. She says the difference is huge.
> Learn all you can with Diesel, but don’t be too hard on yourself or him. It’s just not in his genetics.
> Finally, I am willing to bet he is better trained than 99.9% of the dogs on your island.


Thank you for being honest. I got a showline as working line kennels in Portugal are mostly dog factories and the breeders don't do a really good job. Also, I was afraid a working line shepherd would be too much dog for me, as it is my first.
But yeah, you are totally right. Genetics are one thing you don't get over. His father is even more laid back than he his and was able to do a BH, mom has IPO1 and is a very decent dog for a showline. So I tought maybe I will try for the BH.
Thank you for answering.


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## FussingWithDiesel (Apr 23, 2021)

CeraDean said:


> I’ll start off by saying I am working on my first schutzhund dog. So I’m just sharing my experience.
> 
> I’ve seen what I consider an amazing trainer play with her dog for nearly two years before asking for real obedience in drive. It’s inspiring but incredibly difficult to put in action because it feels like you’re accomplishing little. So don’t be too hard on yourself or Diesel for two months.
> 
> ...


Hi, to answer your question, he will always go for the live ball. I found that chasing is one of the most rewarding activities for him. From toys to small animals he will go real crazy. We have a field of corn besides our yard and sometimes a mouse will pop up on my lawn. He goes ballistic everytime he sees one and will chase it to the end of the world.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Absolutely NO reason a show line can't get a BH! It's usually the bite work and sometimes the jumps they have trouble with.


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## FussingWithDiesel (Apr 23, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> Absolutely NO reason a show line can't get a BH! It's usually the bite work and sometimes the jumps they have trouble with.


Yeah his bite is not great even amongst showlines. I don't mind. I'm focusing on the heeling and that is the part that is difficult: to make him really love to heel with me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Diesel will teach you a lot. I think a show line makes a great first GSD. Learn all you can from him, decide what you want and don’t want in a dog, and you will be ready for your SchH dog.
As for availability, I would import, if I were you. With the resources on this board, chances are high that you can get what you want without getting burned.


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## Russfarm76 (Jun 24, 2021)

I’m working towards a BH with my show line bitch . If / when I get it , it will have been hard fought for, and for me a massive achievement. It’s not been easy at times but we have come on massively in the obedience, protection isn’t her strong point, but her tail wags the whole time she is on a bite cushion.
Me and my girl really enjoy it and have learnt so much, we are no superstars, but we try our hardest and will hopefully get that BH one day. Keep going and good luck.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

FussingWithDiesel said:


> I posted some months ago about my dog's issues when playing with me. Want to thank everyone that was in that thread trying to help me out. This seems like a very nice forum and I've read a lot of good threads here.
> 
> I live in an island in the middle of the atlantic. There are no schutzhund schools here. I work part time with a behaviour trainer I became friends with after asking for some general behaviour tips about my dog, and learned a lot from him, but not about dog sports.
> 
> ...


hi

I too was self taught in the beginning, I’ll pass on my observations based on experience. It take but a couple visits to the trading field to show me I was a rank beginner. I observed there was no structured teaching what was required for was her event or level of Schutzhund or more recent ipo . Fortunately I was able to attend several trials near by . I managed to corner a German judge who spoke English snd he helped me some . I could see he was not comfortable with English and often reverted to German which I had no background . I think he figured out that I had no idea beyond what I had observed at the trials . He had patience I give him that . I didn’t under stand the tightness of obedience training that was essential to all of the sport events. I had already been through several obedience classes and achieved passing if not superior ranking due to my dogs quality. Ie he was remarkably easy to train once I began correct practice . I lacked what was required for the schutzhund sport. It took a lot of time snd visiting every club within several hundred miles befor I gathered enough technique to realy continue training . Finally someone pointed out how important obedience training was to continuing the sport . If you look at each event you can see that control is required. Not only of snd by the dog but yourself. Nobody told me about double commands. Local obedience clubs use them all the time “ rover, come”. Double command . Can’t do this in any of the schitzhund, ipo sports so I had to condition myself to only use single commands . Dogs don’t know their name as we do it’s just a sound humans mak to them . It’s a marker. As I was finally told. Once I got this in my head I had to undo many obedience commands. Again I was blessed with a good dog. He responded pretty quickly snd we progressed faster in the sport. Tracking , usually there will be a market where you are to start. At the time most people used German commands so I created a list and memorized it . You may not always know the start. Dogs can pick up on sticks snd various markers so I began using a feature only I could see I carried a plastic page book and crayons to note my tracked and where I dropped articles . We tracked every day for quit awhile gradually doing longer snd more difficult tracks. I thought rain would kill the track until I went to a trial and saw a near perfect track in a near down pour. From that point I never feared a wet or rainy day weather didn’t mean anything to my dog after a few very nasty long tracks. In all events my fog never failed a track . Even later on in K9 training tracking was almost a given. Standard bet was a bag of dog food. We were never short of dog food . Back to starting , I often gave the track command as soon as his harnes or collar was on. It was up to my dog to pick up a trail and work out the start unless given a location one notable track at a sch3 track was start by that lone dandion. I screwed up with the down at the arrival. Eventually it was explained that they wanted the fog to down with it between front legs. I don’t know if it holds today but ask the judge if you can . K9 training I had to regime do it again as the fog was only to indicat, no barking might be a sound activated bomb. No touching it was evidence no ripping cars up no biting tires or plastic bumpers where narcs were hidden . SAR was simply stand still handler was to be close by for what ever else was needed. In obedience the dog had to stay very close and look up to you , so it took more training to fix this. I added hand signals ginger signals even flash light and whistle I had a small nearly silent whistle on a neck cord that only dogs hear . What ever voice command in sport need to be clear and the fog has to respond. Now this may have changed over the years so check it out . When it gets to protection training all this obedience starts to fall into place . Our means out let go right now not 5 commands later or yanking a tug toy . The dog must not be gun or noise shy some times the blank guns can be very loud. You need to be stable too. My personal protection training was brutal on me physically never on the fog again this is where good obedience trading makes it easier. When you command in protection it’s like an off switch for the fog so the better your obedience training is the easier it will be . In helper training there was no room for mistakes on the fog. If you made a mistake you could count on a bruise somewhere . E collar was the worse make a mistake and you got the stun of a life time . I often said if the calculus professor had had e collar I would have learned three years of this in the first month at engineering school . LOL protection helper work is a whole different game . I was forced to learn dog language with no translator other than what everdisiplanary tool was at hand . Every thing the fog did or indicated was something to Learn. As beginners we were not allowed to work young dogs only adult experienced dogs . Then we followed along as the instructor worked young dogs. You had to pay attention every second you ere on the field because you migh be asked what was going on with the fog. The snswer had better be correct ….. or else . It’s probably why I’m so opinionated about it . Most I try to stay apart not because I’m always right or the expert. But because I’ve been on the short end of the stick, in the ER snd hospital a number of times as a result of mistakes. Some mine some others . I don’t trainmprotection dogs today not even my own . In fact I have a cat now . Yes they can be trained but not like dogs. This is enough for now. I hope I haven’t bored y’all to death. It’s a big topic . I’ll try and check in I have med issue that has left me with double vision so please excuse some typing errors


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