# To breed or not to breed..



## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Still on the fence about breeding or not breeding my pup.

After growing up for years around LEO GSDs I have a good point of view on purebred and not. 

Unfortantly, the breeder I bought my pup from bred them because they wanted to share their dogs with others so they did two breedings with their own two dogs.

The mom an pops were AMAZING so I'm hoping Arlo will turn out the same. He doesn't have AKC paperwork hence why I'm on the fence to breed or not.. 

What do you guys think? I just want him to make 1, maybe 2 litters and that's it depending on how he turns out.. 

Would it be worth it if I DON'T have AKC paperwork??


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

I vote for not breeding.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Do not breed him. He has no paperwork therefore there is no proof that he is even a PB (even if he is, buyers do not know that)There are far too many dogs/puppies in the world already. 

I think a dog should only be bred if 

1) It has some titles

2) Is the perfect example of how the breed should look and act

3) If the person is breeding to better the breed and not just so that they can keep 1 or 2 of the puppies, make money off them or just because they didn't want to spay/neuter them.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think my dog is fantastic, he is gorgeous, smart and very loyal and I would love to breed him and keep a puppy but he doesn't have a good pedigree, he came from a BYB, he was born without a nail on his back right paw. He is not titled. He is not of breeding quality. Therefore he should never be bred.


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## Overhill (Jul 5, 2010)

*Paperwork*

I am a firm believer that papers do NOT always mean they would make a good breeder. The quality of the dog is all that counts. 
I own a male Liver GSD, yes he has a good pedigree, but I didn't set out with that in mind. I knew what I was looking for in my prospectus dog. The amount of people who asked me "did you mean to get a Liver?" is surprising.
Just because I can't show him.... doesn't detract from his qualities.
I'm sure you will be able to find a good trainer/ breeder who can give you advice.
This is only MY humble opinion, and no offense to anyone who might feel differently.:blush:
Thanks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No papers? No health checks? No trialing? 

= No Breeding.

Why do you think the puppies would be worth anything to anyone else?
What kind of breeding does this dog have? Have the parents, grandparents, etc been health checked? Trialed?
Are you prepared to make a commitment to 6-12 dogs for the remainder of their lives?
How will you feel if one of the puppies you created ends up in a kill shelter?


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

See, I want to breed him to keep him going as there are too many jacked up dogs out there..

Not for profit at all. Just the cost per pup to get shots and what-not. I would NEVER pay $1100 for a pure-bred GSD. And I know there are others out there who can afford a dog, but would have a hard time dropping a grand for a dog. This way those people can get a great dog, fraction of the cost, and I kept my pup going on with his offspring.

I'll ask a breeder when he gets older and more formed. I have the option to get him fixed soon but don't want to do it yet if I do plan to breed him a time or two..


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I don't think anyone on here thinks that just because a dog has papers, then the dog is suitable to be bred but it is a starting point. There are plenty of us that have great, healthy, well behaved and sound BYB dogs - atleast I think I do. I didn't know better and got very lucky but that doesn't mean she should be bred or that I would even consider it. 

Breeding should be left to the very well educated and informed and done only to promote the breed and the exceptional examples of the breed. 

Extreme example: plenty of hobby mechanics could build a working, driveable car. But would you want to buy and drive that car? Or would you prefer to have the odds in your favor and buy a car that was engineered and built by people who have done their research, learned how to do it the proper way and have years of testing to backup (Papers) that their car works and won't kill you?

Point is: Don't breed your dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> See, I want to breed him to keep him going as there are too many jacked up dogs out there..
> 
> Not for profit at all. Just the cost per pup to get shots and what-not. I would NEVER pay $1100 for a pure-bred GSD. And I know there are others out there who can afford a dog, but would have a hard time dropping a grand for a dog. This way those people can get a great dog, fraction of the cost, and I kept my pup going on with his offspring.
> 
> I'll ask a breeder when he gets older and more formed. I have the option to get him fixed soon but don't want to do it yet if I do plan to breed him a time or two..


:nono:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> See, I want to breed him to keep him going as there are too many jacked up dogs out there..
> 
> Not for profit at all. Just the cost per pup to get shots and what-not. I would NEVER pay $1100 for a pure-bred GSD. And I know there are others out there who can afford a dog, but would have a hard time dropping a grand for a dog. This way those people can get a great dog, fraction of the cost, and I kept my pup going on with his offspring.
> 
> I'll ask a breeder when he gets older and more formed. I have the option to get him fixed soon but don't want to do it yet if I do plan to breed him a time or two..


:headbang: There isn't a reputable breeder out there, that truly cares about the breed, that will condone you breeding a dog with no papers, no pedigree, no health checks and no trialing/showing.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> :headbang: *There isn't a reputable breeder out there, that truly cares about the breed, that will condone you breeding a dog with no papers, no pedigree, no health checks and no trialing/showing.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> :thumbup: Completely agree!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

There are enough backyard breeders in this world and pups without papers... the world doesnt need another one.

I have a better option for you - neutor him when the times right.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> :headbang: There isn't a reputable breeder out there, that truly cares about the breed, that will condone you breeding a dog with no papers, no pedigree, no health checks and no trialing/showing.


Actually the breeder I know is a friend of the family who breeds GSD for Police work in Washington state. 

I would never trust an actual breeder without a form of background such as Police/Service dog. 

I'm not dumb here people  Clearly I'm asking because I want an honest opinion..but I feel the responses I'm getting is because I don't know anything or because I have a dog without papers so he's not good enough to continue on. At least my pup is a pure-bred - If he was a mix, you think I'd really waste my time asking? If I was careless, I wouldn't be asking this question, would I? I clearly stated I only want to breed him depending on the outcome in a year or so to see how formed he is.. so please, don't insult me by treating me like I have no idea what I'm doing or any knowlage. I'm asking, to be INFORMED in making the proper decision on my situation.

I for one, do not care about papers. I don't care about the health history that much. Only part I care about is my pup.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Actually the breeder I know is a friend of the family who breeds GSD for Police work in Washington state.
> 
> I would never trust an actual breeder without a form of background such as Police/Service dog.
> 
> ...


I cannot believe that you said that. That makes me wonder if you have any love for the GSD breed. Because of people that do not care about health testing, we have GSD's that are dying at younger ages, having more problems with HD and other health issues. HEALTH is very important, very. If you breed your dog the health of your dog will be passed on for generations. I'm disgusted at that comment.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> ...so please, don't insult me by treating me like I have no idea what I'm doing or any knowlage.
> 
> I don't care about the health history that much.


You are getting a lot of KNOWLEDGE from people on this board who have years and years of experience. You may want to listen to it. Unfortunately OK GSDs in this country are a dime a dozen.

I am appalled that you can even say you don't care about the health history. It would be ok with you create puppies that could have horrible genetic problems that skipped a generation? Then what would you do with them?

Do you care about your ancestors health history? You should, it plays a huge role in how healthy you will be in your life.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Purebred or not means asbolutely nothing. Papers or not means absolutely nothing. The fact that someone only breeds police/service dogs means absolutely nothing.

Only the best of the best should be bred. You know why dogs cost $1000+ from good breeders? It's not so breeders can make all that money from their pups. It's because that is the money needed to support their breeding program. 

Good breeders title their dogs. They health test (x-rays are not cheap, trust me). They show their dogs. All of this cost major money to do. By paying $1000+ for a puppy supports a reputable breeder trying to do the best thing to better the breed. 

Has your puppy been x-rays (elbows and hips)? How about your puppy's sire and dam? What about their sire and dam? How do you know that if you breed your puppy that he will not be passing down any genetic diseases? 

Does your dog have any titles? CGC? Schutzhund? Temperment is genetic and titles prove dogs can work and preform under pressure. What has your dog proven, besides being a loving pup to you, that he has a sound temperment?

Besides being a good looking dog and a good pet to you, why should he be bred? 

If people don't want to spend big money for a puppy - do you realize how many good quality pets are dying in shelters every day?


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I cannot believe that you said that. That makes me wonder if you have any love for the GSD breed. Because of people that do not care about health testing, we have GSD's that are dying at younger ages, having more problems with HD and other health issues. HEALTH is very important, very. If you breed your dog the health of your dog will be passed on for generations. I'm disgusted at that comment.


Uhh.. sorry. let me take my pup back to the breeder because I have no idea about his health history. Come on!

Health is important.. My mom died of cancer..my pops passed away with MS. Are they worthless because they died at a young age? (around 45ish) I guess I should go off myself, because well, I'm a huge health risk and I shouldn't have kids. Right? 

Seriously.. lets be honest here. So my dog may have some health issue later on in life. That is life. Some die old, some die young.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> I for one, do not care about papers. I don't care about the health history that much. Only part I care about is my pup.


I don't care about papers, either. All I care about are the dogs.

I care about my sweet Luna, who's "breeder" dumped her and her mom and siblings in a shelter. Luna got a good home... but I don't know about her siblings or mom. The siblings were adopted... but the shelter didn't have a good screening process, so who knows where they are today. Mom was likely euthed... an old GSD female worn out from too many litters.

I care about Apollo, who's show "breeder" dumped him, likely after discovering he has elbow dysplasia (and I bet they didn't stop breeding his sire and dam, either). I wonder... what would've happened if he'd have been adopted by someone unwilling or unable to spend over $7,500 in vet bills on him during their first year of ownership?

I care about Nova who lived in an outdoor kennel, sleeping in his own feces because his owner didn't have "enough time" to clean it out. Who was abandoned at a shelter, driven almost crazy, and then given to me, so hyped up he refused to even lie down without being commanded to. Who still cries and whines whenever we go anywhere... worried I'm going to leave him like his former owner.

First and foremost, a breeder has to be willing to stand behind their pups. This means keeping track of them throughout their entire lifetime, not just for their first 8 weeks of life. If the puppy buyer cannot keep the dog for any reason, the breeder should REQUIRE that puppy/dog be returned to them, and be prepared to financially and emotionally provide for that puppy/dog.

Additionally, a breeder has to be willing to LOSE money, getting expensive health tests (hips, elbows, eyes, etc.) to make sure their breeding stock is 100% healthy and won't pass along any genetic disorders onto the puppies. 

There are certainly other important aspects of being a breeder, but those are the top two, IMO. It's a noble thing... wanting to continue your dog's line... but not well thought out. You very well could be condemning your dog's offspring to death. If not them, some other poor, helpless shelter dog that the person who buys your BYB puppies might have adopted instead.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Purebred or not means asbolutely nothing. Papers or not means absolutely nothing. The fact that someone only breeds police/service dogs means absolutely nothing.
> 
> Only the best of the best should be bred. You know why dogs cost $1000+ from good breeders? It's not so breeders can make all that money from their pups. It's because that is the money needed to support their breeding program.
> 
> ...


wow.. anywho..I got a puppy because I could not adopt an older dog. I have two cats. Don't think that'd go over very well. I have adopted dogs before in the past prior to cats. Everyone sistuation is different.

He should be bred because if he's a good enough dog to me, he will hopefully produce good enough pups for others.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Uhh.. sorry. let me take my pup back to the breeder because I have no idea about his health history. Come on!
> 
> Health is important.. My mom died of cancer..my pops passed away with MS. Are they worthless because they died at a young age? (around 45ish) I guess I should go off myself, because well, I'm a huge health risk and I shouldn't have kids. Right?
> 
> Seriously.. lets be honest here. So my dog may have some health issue later on in life. That is life. Some die old, some die young.


That's ridiculous. to compare humans to animals is just silly. Did your mom know she was going to get cancer before she gave birth to you? GSD's already have alot of health issues, because of irresponsible breeders! UGHHHHHHHH


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> Uhh.. sorry. let me take my pup back to the breeder because I have no idea about his health history. Come on!
> 
> Health is important.. My mom died of cancer..my pops passed away with MS. Are they worthless because they died at a young age? (around 45ish) I guess I should go off myself, because well, I'm a huge health risk and I shouldn't have kids. Right?
> 
> Seriously.. lets be honest here. So my dog may have some health issue later on in life. That is life. Some die old, some die young.


No one is saying your or your dog is worthless because of the health history but why continue to contribute to the problem? Should or shouldn't you have kids? That's for you to decided. I have awful genes as well, I'm not sure that I want to burden further generations with my health problems when so many healthy young kids have no parents. But that's me. 

It is incredibly irresponsible of you, however ,to bring an animal into this world that COULD have health problems and to pass that off onto other people. It is true that some die old and some die young, but why not put all the odds in your favor and get a dog whose ancestors have all died old? Common sense.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> wow.. anywho..I got a puppy because I could not adopt an older dog. I have two cats. Don't think that'd go over very well. I have adopted dogs before in the past prior to cats. Everyone sistuation is different.
> 
> He should be bred because if he's a good enough dog to me, he will hopefully produce good enough pups for others.


You can certainly adopt an older dog with two cats, you just need to find the right dog. Two of my fosters (2 yrs old each) have lived in my home with two cats and both went to homes with cats.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> That's ridiculous. to compare humans to animals is just silly. Did your mom know she was going to get cancer before she gave birth to you? GSD's already have alot of health issues, because of irresponsible breeders! UGHHHHHHHH


Your right.. dogs are more important than humans. My bad.. nut.

Anyway, irresponsible breeders are horrible. I agree. I bought my pup because I got to see the mom and dad. otherwise, I wouldn't have got him. So he may have issues later on in life. So what.. That's life. Medical issues are of life and death. Hence why we have hospitals and they have vets. If every dog was perfect that'd be great.. but no matter what, every dog has a defect. Your dog may drink anti-freeze and die. You may smoke infront of your dog while shes prego. Her pups may come out all jacked up. Who knows. Who cares? If the pup is good enough and checks out health wise at the time, why not?

If I found out my dog had a cancer cell or some condition..I wouldn't breed him. But he checks out fine health wise at the moment. If this is the same case two years from now.. I think I will just to tick you animal lovers off. Geeze lol


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> He should be bred because if he's a good enough dog to me, he will hopefully produce good enough pups for others.


Name someone who says their pet isn't good enough for them. Everyone loves their pets or at least the very high majority of people. Does that mean everyones pet is suitable to be bred?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Then by all means, please let us know when you do so we can prepare to pull the puppies YOU created from the kill shelters.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> You can certainly adopt an older dog with two cats, you just need to find the right dog. Two of my fosters (2 yrs old each) have lived in my home with two cats and both went to homes with cats.


You can also adopt puppies from shelters. Luna was 10 weeks when I got her.

Apollo was a year old... I have two cats... no probs.

Nova was 2.5 years old when I got him... never been around cats before. I think he did quite well:









But... the issue really isn't whether or not the OP should've adopted rather than buy from a BYB. That ship has sailed. The issue is, whether or not the OP should eventually breed his untested, untitled dog. Obviously, the answer from this board is an overwhelming *NO!* (for which I am glad to see, being a newbie that is very much against BYBs/puppymills).


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

I've owned a GSD that had no registration. He lived to be 13 and a half, was active and healthy most of his life, had superior intelligence and such a good personality that numerous people offered to buy him off of me for generous sums. I also owned a female GSD who was AKC registered and who came from impressive parents. She was the sunshine of my life but died at 8 of cancer. She had a difficult personality to work with and it took loads of TLC to make her a good companion and pet.

Breeding dogs is always risky business, somewhat of a crap shot. A friend of mine that breeds another type of dog has taught me that you never know how a dog will turn out, and the kids do not always carry on the best qualities of the parents, while often they can carry a hidden gene for cancer, etc. Experienced and reputable breeders try to match up the best qualities of the breed and give them a fighting chance for a healthy life and less "jacked up" personality.

If you are not an experienced breeder to begin with, there is a much higher chance that your "crap shot" will not turn out so great. At the very least, you should wait two years before making a decision, as that is a good age for vets to examine the dogs and make sure there are no skeletal deficiencies. My friend considers himself responsible for each pup he breeds, and will not hesitate to take one back if the family is not the right fit or abandons the pup. So many people want German Shepherds, so it would be real easy for you to get rid of the pups, but that doesn't mean every new owner is the right match. The main thing I would be concerned about is never to allow a pup, not even one, to be in a household that doesn't treat it the way a GSD should be cared for.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> I think I will just to tick you animal lovers off. Geeze lol


Honestly, I know this poster has many posts to his/her name, but are we 100% certain it's not a troll? This post is getting more and more troll-like... 



adamdude04 said:


> If I found out my dog had a cancer cell or some condition..I wouldn't breed him. But he checks out fine health wise at the moment.


I'm glad to hear you wouldn't breed your dog if he had cancer. Please also consider other, more common health conditions like hip and elbow dysplasia. Breeding stock should be x-rayed and those x-rays should be sent in to be checked by the OFA (or a comparable entity). 

98% of the time, you'd never know that my Rottweiler has elbow dysplasia... but he does. He romps around like there's nothing wrong with him. But what if he was bred to a female that also had ED? What would their puppies be like?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm going from a tad different angle here..first, sorry if I missed it, how old is your pooch right now? Is he out a first litter or is this something that's been repeated?

If repeated, I'd check with owners who have littermates and see if any, health issues have arisen.

Health issues ARE a serious issue, yes people get sick, dogs get sick with no warning, But are you aware of the possible GSD specific illnesses that may crop up later in life, that could be passed on to offspring? EPI, SIBO, etc. 

What health testing are you willing to do? Such as, are you willing to OFA Hips and Elbows at 2 years of age? 

Fine, that you are willing to sell said puppies at cost alone to people who can't drop 1000 bucks for a puppy,,however, will those people be able to pay for an expensive emergency or long term illness ? If not, what will happen to that puppy? Are you willing to take them back?

You may have an absolutely wonderful dog, excellent health,live a long health and have come from wonderful parents. Because of this, does not mean they will reproduce themselves. 

You will do what you want to do, you came here for opinions, and you got them, you may not like them, but you asked for them. 

Unfortunately there is much more to breeding/reproducing dogs than your reasons for doing so. I suggest you volunteer some time at a local spca or purebred rescue and do some more research..


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I think one of the main points lost on Adam so far is that there are simply too many paperless, title-less dogs out there already. Why say too many? Not because they are any less great dogs/pets and also not always because of potential health issues. The reason is, the pool of people out there that can afford a titled and expensive dog (or make sure they save for one) will generally take extremely good care of it and they also generally know what they are doing or make sure they get pro help. Many untitled/paperless dogs must be sold at much discounted prices and are bought by clueless owners who may give up and the poor dogs end up in a shelter. Them's the hard facts. Not all buyers are like that, but far too many are. Plus, there are plenty of paperless GSDs that desperately need adoption, so why offer cheap pups to compete with those poor souls?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm going to post what a RESPONSIBLE breeder consists of. And if you fit the bill, and your knowledge of the genetics and background of your dog also fit in, then breeding is something to consider. If you and your dog do NOT fit into the 'responsible' breeding category then just consider all the GSD's currently being killed in shelters every day (just look at the Rescue sections here) and be glad your dogs, and pups from your pups will NEVER be there when you choose to NOT add to the population by just breeding more GSD's.

Being a responsible breeder should be WAY more than just having a dog you love and breeding it to another in the hopes to replicate your dog.


Dog Play: Making a Difference: Being a Responsible Dog Breeder

Dog Owner's Guide: Should you breed your dog?

What is a Breeder


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## heatherr (Jun 5, 2010)

My vote is a firm "No. You should NOT breed."

At the very least, volunteer at your local shelter in addition for the next 2 years. How would you feel if one of your cheap, no title, no paper, no health certs, pets ended up there? 

My pup came from a rescue. Luckily he was pulled from the city shelter by a rescue from which I was able to adopt him. His total time in the system was less than a month until he found a foster home, and then 3 weeks until I found him. Many awesome pets that are great dogs, purebred and mixed, end up in shelters. Unfortunately, most don't make it out.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

Diane:

Your answer to the OP is excellent, clear cut advice. I was trying to say it, but you put it in better words than I did. Some of the things that are serious problems with GSD's are the hip dysplasia, hemangiosarcoma (cancer of the spleen), degenerative myelopathy (progressive paralysis from the back of the spine), and personality disorders (e.g. those few that have out of control aggression).

I don't think it is fair to call the poster a "troll" as some have done. It seems to me that he sincerely loves his dog and wants to share those adorable qualities with progeny. Perhaps he is young and has not yet seen how serious inherited health problems can be torture to a GSD. If adamdude04 did breed his dog, I would hope that those "biggies" of GSD health issues be checked. Nothing is worse than seeing a GSD in searing pain, for instance, because he is carrying the hip problems and then has to be put down at a tender young age.

I thank you again for your great advice to the poster.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

CaliBoy said:


> Diane:
> 
> I don't think it is fair to call the poster a "troll" as some have done. It seems to me that he sincerely loves his dog and wants to share those adorable qualities with progeny.


I don't think he's a "troll" either. I do think that he asked for experienced advice, yet already has his mind made up and all of the rationalizations in place. That happens here way too often... I don't get it.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

CaliBoy said:


> I don't think it is fair to call the poster a "troll" as some have done. It seems to me that he sincerely loves his dog and wants to share those adorable qualities with progeny. Perhaps he is young and has not yet seen how serious inherited health problems can be torture to a GSD.


I don't consider breeding just to "tick" us "animal lovers off" is exactly breeding because he loves his dog. 

I love my dogs... and that is one of the reasons I choose NOT to breed. 

But yes... he may very well be young.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I got a puppy because I could not adopt an older dog. I have two cats. Don't think that'd go over very well.


If you believe you cannot adopt an older dog because you have cats, then I truly believe you do not have the level of experience owning, working with, and training dogs that is required of a responsible breeder.

Of course you can adopt or purchase an older dog if you have cats, as long as you find the right dog and work on training the dog to leave the cats alone. I have a German Shepherd whom I got at age 4 from a shelter, when I had two cats at home. I have never had any issues with her bothering the cats. I also have a high prey drive Belgian Malinois whom I got at a shelter at age 5. I have had to teach her to leave the cats along and the cats have had to learn that she will leave them alone if they don't run, but I have never had any issues or aggression with either dogs toward the cats.



> He should be bred because if he's a good enough dog to me, he will hopefully produce good enough pups for others.


This is not a very good reason to breed because it is the same reason a lot of people justify their breedings with - "Oh, I just want one litter." "I want my kids to see the miracle of birth and learn responsibility." "He's a great pet so I'm sure people would love to have one just like him." etc. etc. Thousands of people wake up each morning with those idea and produce puppies.

I have absolutely no doubt that you have a great dog and that you love your dog, but that doesn't necessarily mean he should be bred. 

MaggieRoseLee has a beautiful quote in her signature - "Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is."

What her quote means is this - your dog's pedigree gives you an idea what you might expect of your dog. If the parents were working police dogs, you might expect your pup to have the physical characteristics as well as the drive and temperament to do that kind of work. However, the pedigree itself is no guarantee of this, just like "papers" are no guarantee that the dog is a quality dog or that the dog doesn't have any serious faults or genetic disorders. 

Conformation (the appearance of the dog) shows what the dog appears to be, externally. While conformation certainly plays a part in ability, and they are not mutually exclusive, conformation alone doesn't tell you a thing about the dog's abilities and temperament. It does tell you whether you have a good-looking, well-built dog, though.

And actual performance (working the dog in one or more sporting venues) shows you what the dog actually is. It helps you better get to know your dog and his temperament. Will the dog give up under pressure? Be meek and timid if threatened? Be overly aggressive? Working your dog is how you find out what your dog is suited for.

When you combine all of that with actual health testing to ensure your dog will not pass on a genetic disease or temperament flaws, then you are in a great position to decide whether your dog should be bred and whether there is any good that will come from the breeding. Breeding for the sake of breeding only hurts the breed.

You can put together two very good dogs - papered, titled, all health checks - and still wind up with puppies with issues if your combination of the genes just didn't work out well. (Ahem ... my Abby is a wonderful example for that, as both of her parents had hips that were rated very good, yet she's still dysplastic.)



> If I found out my dog had a cancer cell or some condition..I wouldn't breed him. But he checks out fine health wise at the moment. If this is the same case two years from now.. I think I will just to tick you animal lovers off. Geeze lol


"Health testing" doesn't mean taking your dog to your veterinarian for routine physicals and shots. It means genetic testing, hip and elbow x-rays, all that sort of good stuff (and expensive stuff).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I love my dogs... and that is one of the reasons I choose NOT to breed.


Now that is well said!


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I don't consider breeding just to "tick" us "animal lovers off" is exactly breeding because he loves his dog.


I took that comment to be a figure of speech, one of exasperation with his opponents rather than a serious intent to use breeding as a tool of revenge . As well, when he said that the health issues were not important, I took that to mean that he loves his dog, but does not see the need to know the health history going back various generations. 

Some seemed to think the poster doesn't care about healthy dogs, and yet it would be very unusual for him to express such love for his GSD if he did not care about health. I can see the importance of discouraging breeding, but by getting harsh with the poster, perhaps some folks only made him dig in his heels and not listen to their advice.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

adamdude04 said:


> So he may have issues later on in life. So what.. That's life. Medical issues are of life and death.


So what?

If you are faced with having to spend $3-4000 on surgery, or else watch your dog suffer constant crippling pain, will you say "so what"?

If you are faced with watching your dog's body deteriorate to the point where he has no quality of life because he can no longer walk or control his back end at all, and has developed urinary and bowel incontinence, but his mind is still as sharp as ever and his drive still as strong as ever and he constantly looks at you with a befuddled expression asking "why can't I do what I want to do anymore?", will you say "so what"?

If you are faced with spending hundreds of dollars each month on special diets and enzyme therapies to prevent your dog from literally starving to death before your eyes no matter how much he eats, will you say "so what"?

I'm not just talking about old age issues that come on later in life. These are genetic health issues within this breed that can strike down dogs in the prime of their youth. And those things while not completely preventable can have the chances of occurrence *significantly* reduced by health testing breeding stock, and studying the health of the ancestors and relatives in the bloodline.

For a while there in your posts it sounded like you want to breed your dog because you love your dog and are quite smitten with him. But comments like health not mattering make me question that. No one who loves their dog would want to go through those things or put his dog through them. No one who loves dogs at all, or who cares one bit about the future of his dog's offspring and their owners, would take such a cavalier attitude to health testing. 

Any breeder who does not do everything possible to ensure sound health in every puppy he produces, or who takes the attitude of "so what" when it comes to life threatenting and life altering health issues, is absolutely unconscionable. These things cause nothing but heartache for the people and suffering for the dog, especially if the owners do not have the financial ability to care for a dog with chronic and expensive health problems (which considering your stated goals are to sell cheap puppies to people who can't afford pups from good breeders would be highly likely in this case.



adamdude04 said:


> But he checks out fine health wise at the moment. If this is the same case two years from now.. I think I will just to tick you animal lovers off. Geeze lol


FYI, there is a LOT more involved in proper health testing than getting an "all clear" from the vet. And there is a lot more involved in responsible breeding than just checking thehealth of breeding stock. One must also study the health of the bloodlines to know what problems may exist that the parents don't express, but may well pass on.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

CaliBoy said:


> Some seemed to think the poster doesn't care about healthy dogs, and yet it would be very unusual for him to express such love for his GSD if he did not care about health.


Oh, I definitely believe he loves his dog, and cares about his dog's health, I simply thing he doesn't understand or chooses to ignore important issues.

I knew nothing of BYBs and health testing a year ago, before I adopted Luna. It was by sheer dumb luck that I didn't buy a pup from a BYB instead... and instinct alone that the one breeder I was interested in (I was going to get Sibes), was a very good breeder. I didn't know that. All I knew was that her dogs were amazing looking.

But now I do know... and I choose not to ignore what BYBs and puppymills are doing.. many (in the case of BYBs) in total ignorance. Puppies are fun, puppies are cute, puppies can make me a few bucks. Puppies can also be abused, neglected, and abandoned after they are sold to unscreened homes. They can suffer agonizing heredetary conditions because their breeders didn't bother doing the necessary health testing.

They could end up like the puppy in this story... which surely has been posted numerous times on various dog forums, but worth reposting: PlayMor Siberians - How Could You? By Jim Willis


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

You should NOT breed your dog. PERIOD. 

Have you been to animal shelter? My shelter currently has MANY GSDs in their care! There is an overpopulation problem. To say you can't adopt a dog because you have cats is false. You can get dogs and puppies of all ages at shelters or rescues. You need to do health testing, especially for GSDs.

We all love our dogs. We all think they would have beautiful puppies and be awesome parents. You know how many times I am asked if I am going to breed my 2 GSDs? My black GSD came from the shelter I volunteer at. I would HATE to see any of his children there. Its sad enough to see any dog there. 

Just because your dog may seem breeding quality to you does NOT mean he really is. I think also depending on the area in which you live you have to do certain health testing. But BYBs don't care for that.

There is WAY more to breeding than having a beautiful dog that isn't neutered.

Don't breed your dog. Get him neutered. And visit a shelter, and think: Would you like to see your dog's offspring there?


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh c'mon, he is clearly a troll. No one is that irresponsible!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh yes they are...unfortunately...

but the OP has clearly left the building...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

adamdude04 said:


> What do you guys think? I just want him to make 1, maybe 2 litters and that's it depending on how he turns out..


Who gets to decide "how he turns out"? I don't think an owner can really put aside their own, natural bias and make a clear headed decision and any experienced, educated and impartial judge will tell you that you shouldn't breed a dog that doesn't have papers.

Which isn't to say that papers are the end all and be all of reproductive quality. But they should be part of the over all picture.
Sheilah


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

He will breed his dog simply because he can....registered, health checked, titled....or nothing at all....
Irresponsible & ignorant as the action may be,....there are others that have the same beliefs.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Actually the breeder I know is a friend of the family who breeds GSD for Police work in Washington state.
> 
> I would never trust an actual breeder without a form of background such as Police/Service dog.
> 
> ...


Ok, don't take my response as an insult at all. Im just going to give my opinion 

First of all, if you do not care about his health history, you need to get him neutered now. It is because of people with that kind of attitude that GSDs are plauged with as many health problems as they are...

I think there's A LOT more to it than just the fact that he is purebred. The fact that you do not have any information on his pedigree or health tests, titles, etc. in his genes is definately not good. It is hard enough to find a healthy/sound GSD in this world as it is (at least it was for me), and breeding a dog without any sort of "backup" regarding that would just be adding to the problem. Just because HE is healthy doesn't mean that his father or mother don't have DM, or bad hips, etc. HE may be healthy, but if his doggy family isn't, he can pass that down to his pups, grandchildren, etc. which could total to be hundreds of dogs and the future of the GSD breed itself.

I think that anyone who is planning on breeding a dog needs to:

a.) FIRST, Obtain a dog from a reputable breeder which will come with papers, a pedigree, health clearances on the parents, and titles on the parents and grandparents, etc.

b.) Compete with the dog in conformation to see how structurally the dog conforms to the breed standard. That will tell you "how formed he is" and whether or not he will pass that part of the puzzle will be up to the judges.

c.) PASS all health clearances. Do research on all diseases that plauge a GSD, and get your dog tested and make sure he is clear of ALL of them. I think this is one of the MOST important parts of breeding a dog because diseases are RUINING and CRIPPLING the GSD today.

d.) Make sure your dog is sound as far as temperment. Work him to get titles which will also confirm how close he is to standard since GSDs were bred to work.

If you can do all of that, then you have my vote. But without a pedigree with health clearances on his fam, it will be impossible. He needs to be neutered. Plus, without AKC papers, how will you be able to title him in AKC shows/events? He won't have the fair chance that other GSD's will have and neither will his offspring.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think Onyx's sire's owner felt the same way as the OP...and the pups don't have HD but temperament issues, allergies, pannus and who knows what else. We can blame some of it on the dam, but the sire has input as well. It was too bad Onyx's sire's owner found willing "breeders" to pass on his dogs genetics, they were nothing special(Am pet lines), though I'm sure his owner loved him and thought he was the greatest.
Don't breed your dog, we have enough reputable breeders to fulfill the needs of those looking for a quality GSD. And *plenty *BYB's to fulfill the needs of those looking for a good deal on a cheap pup...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LaRen616 said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > :headbang: *There isn't a reputable breeder out there, that truly cares about the breed, that will condone you breeding a dog with no papers, no pedigree, no health checks and no trialing/showing.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't think the OP is coming back. 

I hate people. They come asking for advice and then won't even listen to it and would rather be irresponsible.

eta; To the op. 

My dog is a 10month old GSD. He's from a backyard breeder, a person frowned upon by breeding dogs that are not health tested, titled, or structurally sound. He's a great dog, yes. He has the best temperment I could ask for and great health- so far. That's not to say that he won't develope hip dysplasia in a few years from poor breeding that didn't pay attention to their health and put him through YEARS of pain, and me through THOUSANDS of dollars. All because somebody wanted to make a quick buck. 

But he is healthy now. He doesn't have papers, either. I could breed him, easily. Do you know why I'm not? Because I care about him, and the future of any dog he would produce. I don't want to be responsible for a family getting a puppy and having to pay 10,000 dollars for a hip replacement at two years old for their poorly bred dog that they got from me. I don't want to be responsible for a child losing his/her best friend because I bred a dog carelessly with health issues in his genes. I don't want to be responsible for 7-10 puppies that could potentially end up in kill shelters and just be killed in the end from careless owners that pass them along. I don't want to be responsible for GSD that become aggressive because their owners don't care for them properly, spay/neuter them too young, or don't at all and breed more. I could by breeding my one pup, be responsible for HUNDREDS of puppies, and deaths. Do you really want to breed your dog just to see the puppies and have half of their lungs sucked out in the gas chambers at an Animal Control center miserably and painfully so that you can feel good about breeding your dog? Do you want your dog attacked by the bitch breeding with him because he's inexperienced? Do you want your dog developing cancer of his genitals because you left him intact to breed? Do you want your dog becoming male aggressive because he was left intact and not properly socialized? 

I just don't know how ANY of this is appealing to you. If you cared about animals, you wouldn't do it. If you don't care about them, please leave. This is a forum for people who care.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't think the OP is coming back.
> 
> I hate people. They come asking for advice and then won't even listen to it and would rather be irresponsible.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Uhh.. sorry. let me take my pup back to the breeder because I have no idea about his health history. Come on!
> 
> Health is important.. My mom died of cancer..my pops passed away with MS. Are they worthless because they died at a young age? (around 45ish) I guess I should go off myself, because well, I'm a huge health risk and I shouldn't have kids. Right?
> 
> Seriously.. lets be honest here. So my dog may have some health issue later on in life. That is life. Some die old, some die young.


 
You do not have to take your pup back to the breeder b/c you don't know his health history. However you SHOULD take him to the vet to get him neutered.

And saying whether or not you should have kids in this conversation really is irrelivent. The GSD breed itself was creadted by HUMANS through generations of _selective_ breeding. The health problems in this breed has were brought on by HUMANS through generations of _careless_ breeding. The comment that "some die old, some die young." is terrible. Dogs SHOULDN'T die young because we can help control it through responsible breeding. But when BYBs are constantly throwing their dogs into the mix, it will never get better. So for you to not make an effort to improve this breed makes it obvious that you have no compassion/love for the future of dogs AT ALL. You seem to just care about what YOU want, not what's best for the German Shepherd.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

FWIW, I have two dogs I adopted as adults (one 1.5 yrs, one 3.5 yrs) who have never touched or expressed interest in my cats. I have a third dog I purchased from a breeder at 8 weeks who is absolutely not reliable around cats and never will be.

I think you should not breed your dog because not only do you not understand the important of genetics, you just don't seem to even care...


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I think that its pretty clear from the OP's responses that he did not post his question to REALLY get opinions from experienced GSD Owners and Breeders. What he really wanted was confirmation of his idea to breed a dog with no papers, no titles, and no health clearances simply because the pup and his parents LOOKED great. But does the OP honestly know what characteristics apply to a GREAT looking GSD? Does he know the breed standard or what qualities to even look for when selecting a pup? Does he realize that the pups considered MORE affordable to buy are often those considered easier to drop off at the local SPCA because the other expenses in caring for them were not?? The OP stated he wants to breed his dog simply because he thinks he has a great dog and wants to keep the gene going...but for who's benefit?? Is there a line of people at his back door anxiously waiting for one of these unpapered, word of mouth full bred pups?? I think if the OP would take the time to do more research on the breed, their health problems and testing, the significance of researching a dog's history, reputable breeders and what makes them, and the amount of PUREBRED GSD's sitting in high kill shelters, he might understand some of the reasoning behind NOT breeding his dog. JMHO.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

people often DO have a line of people begging for pup's from a friend's untitled/unpapered dogs. Unfortunately, they tend to disappear around the time the pups are ready to go home. Or if they do take a pup, they lose interest when they find out they are actually going to have to work to make it a friendly, smart, obedient dog like Dad.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

My mother is a Medical Doctor.

I wish it were a guarantee I'll graduate from College...


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## GSD LUVER (Jul 29, 2010)

Go adamdude04, quite frankly many of the responses i have been reading regarding breeding sound very much not only "soapbox" but downright "highhorse" to me. I think we all get that there are LOTS of unwanted or abused and neglected dogs (animals) out there-how many of you GSD owners are going to take some of them in? Where I live there are currently 4-5 litters of GSD's in the metro paper for sale-that is not a lot. I personally am thinking of breeding also and came to this sight looking for guidance and education, but maybe there is a kinder more informative forum for this. We could get the smart alecky responses from any blow joe in the community I think we are genuinely lookins for help and getting a bit of attitude here instead


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:welcome:

If you want to be a responsible breeder you'll find lots of people to help you do that and give you advice. If you don't want to be responsible you'll find a lot of people telling you why thats a bad idea.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSD LUVER said:


> Go adamdude04, quite frankly many of the responses i have been reading regarding breeding sound very much not only "soapbox" but downright "highhorse" to me. I think we all get that there are LOTS of unwanted or abused and neglected dogs (animals) out there-how many of you GSD owners are going to take some of them in? Where I live there are currently 4-5 litters of GSD's in the metro paper for sale-that is not a lot. I personally am thinking of breeding also and came to this sight looking for guidance and education, but maybe there is a kinder more informative forum for this. We could get the smart alecky responses from any blow joe in the community I think we are genuinely lookins for help and getting a bit of attitude here instead


4-5 litters is alot of puppies. The people here gave kind, informative information. And sadly the people refuse to take it in and use it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

GSD LUVER said:


> Go adamdude04, quite frankly many of the responses i have been reading regarding breeding sound very much not only "soapbox" but downright "highhorse" to me. I think we all get that there are LOTS of unwanted or abused and neglected dogs (animals) out there-how many of you GSD owners are going to take some of them in? Where I live there are currently 4-5 litters of GSD's in the metro paper for sale-that is not a lot. I personally am thinking of breeding also and came to this sight looking for guidance and education, but maybe there is a kinder more informative forum for this. We could get the smart alecky responses from any blow joe in the community I think we are genuinely lookins for help and getting a bit of attitude here instead


Think you should stick around and really read and learn from the posts. The fact is we have a ton of RESPONSIBLE breeders on this site that we support and encourage (and get puppies/dogs from). 

The problem is we ALSO see and hang out in the rescue section here, and the dogs that are there are NOT from responsible breeders and hence is our issue.......

Anyone with knowledge and understanding to really work to improve the breed with healthy dogs and sound temperments, that support the puppy owners for the life of the dog are only encouraged to continue in their breeding efforts.

If you know what you are doing. And know about the breed. Do all you can for throughout the life of any/all puppies you ever breed to make as sure as you can they never end up in a shelter, then BREED AWAY!

Otherwise, you should expect us to ask questions and challenge any breeder to do better when they know better.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

sagelfn said:


> :welcome:
> 
> If you want to be a responsible breeder you'll find lots of people to help you do that and give you advice. If you don't want to be responsible you'll find a lot of people telling you why thats a bad idea.


That's short, sweet, and I couldn't have put it any better! :thumbup:


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## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Here is a question what if this guy did get the health checks and got some working titles on his dog but still no papers what do you guys think then?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

cagirl said:


> Here is a question what if this guy did get the health checks and got some working titles on his dog but still no papers what do you guys think then?


The reason for the 'papers' is so you can figure out the lineage on BOTH sides for health and temperment.

That way you can also figure out the genetics with what you have (and your dogs genetic potential and problems) to do the best mix with the genetics of the dog you want to breed with.

Say you know your dog has a history of skin allergies (though maybe your dog is fine) in it's lineage, if you bred to another dog with the same there is a much better chance of the puppies having allergy issues. Ask anyone on this site with dogs that suffer from allergies and I'm thinking they wouldn't be a fan of such a breeding.

But if you don't KNOW the health history of your dog. You can't make the best educated combination when you pick a dog to breed to. So you are adding so many more ??????? to the puppies. 

Same with temperment. If you want laid back puppies and your dog is laid back, you may breed to a laid back dog and end up with all crazy hyper wackjobs with fear aggression to boot cause the HISTORY of the littermates of the 2 dogs you bred may have that in them (and you didn't know...)

Also, without papers, you won't be able to register the puppies so they will be sold without the necessary history and background. And you won't even be able to send them off with a limited registry to help assure they don't breed. So as a breeder you've given away some of the 'power' to help assure none of these dogs even end up in a shelter in the future, or THEIR puppies end up in a shelter, and so on. No records or accountability.

I've loved and had GREAT dogs with fantastic pedigrees and paperwork. But does that mean I also 'had' to breed them? No way! Cause I don't have the education and knowledge to figure out the best male to mix with them. And I also know that while my dogs are great dogs, they aren't necessarily any better than alot of other great dogs that are out there already. We have tons of 'great' dogs ALREADY in the USA and I don't need to add to that population. Unless I've got something really special to add to the GSD world, with specific goals and knowledge to get there with a breeding, background and experience to do it well, the $$$$ and time to get thru a breeding and possibly take some puppies back if there is an issue with the future puppy owners (don't let's even get into the difficulty of finding puppy owners worthy of MY puppies....)


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## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The reason for the 'papers' is so you can figure out the lineage on BOTH sides for health and temperment.
> 
> That way you can also figure out the genetics with what you have (and your dogs genetic potential and problems) to do the best mix with the genetics of the dog you want to breed with.
> 
> ...


That is the hardest thing these days hard to trust anyone. I just always wondered how things can be so different like agility people will breed even mixed breeds like a JRT with a BC to make good agility dogs, then people say absolutely not the dogs have to be papered.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i am once again astounded at the time and energy members of this board are willing to expend giving thoughtful, insightful, and educated responses to breeding questions posed by people who do not understand the first thing about what has happened, and continues to happen, to this magnificent breed (and so many others), because of attitudes and actions exactly like your's, mr. adamdude. you will not find much support or acceptance here dude, most of us feel it's people like you who've caused many of the problems of, and filled countless shelters with, too many german shepherd dogs. you don't want to listen to what anyone here has to say...so go ahead and do what you're gonna do, and many of us will continue to work hard to clean up the mess that you and people like you make.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cagirl said:


> Here is a question what if this guy did get the health checks and got some working titles on his dog but still no papers what do you guys think then?


I still say no. 

There is a lot more to breeding dogs than having sire and dam's hips ok, and sire and dam capable of earning titles as evidenced by them having titles. 

Without papers, how do you know that the sire is not also the sire to the dam? You would have to take people's word for it. There is really even more to it than that.

When you make up your mind to do the thing properly, you really have to start by digging and learning. You have to really understand what each dog in the pedigree is known for producing. This is not about eliminating every dog from the gene pool with any problem, or that has sired a dog with a problem. But what you want to do is evaluate the bitch and dog for weaknesses and select a breeding that makes sense. And evaluate the lines for possible weaknesses and select the breeding with that in mind. 

If you have a dog on the one side known for a specific problem, and you can see a similar issue on the other side, you will want to rethink the breeding. 

Without the knowledge of what is behind the sire and dam, you are seriously hamstrining any efforts to produce dogs that are close to the quality of the sire and dam. 

Without knowing what is back there, there is no way to know what to expect out of the puppies. Some may resemble the sire, some the dam, some a grandsire. The chances of a uniform litter are pretty slim.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

cagirl i say there are too many...TOO MANY...german shepherd dogs already here. the LAST THING this breed needs are people like adamdude.


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

I think the first replies were quick and harsh and put adamdude in a defensive spot un furtunaliy people have strong feeling on this topic and dont know how to express them selfs with out being abrasive,however their were some great respones but by that time adam was insulted. some times a spoon full of sugar does make the medicine go down... lol


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## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

All great points


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

well, speaking for myself, i'm not here to sugarcoat the truth. the truth is the truth. fact is, this site is for people who love the breed, not for people who want to contribute to it's ruin. you can lead a horse to water...

ps: and maybe adamdude isn't posting anymore but you can bet he's still probably reading.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe, maybe not still reading. 

I think that people will do what they want to do. 

I do not think it is wrong to say what we think on this topic. People need to know that there are strong feelings about this and why. To not do so, makes us as a site accepting of very irresponsible behavior. People who stick around will learn and if those people do breed, they will do so with more knowledge and hopefully be better breeders for it. Those who feel chased away by the tone of these posts will probably do just what they intended to do all along. But they will do so without our blessing, and maybe with a few things to think about.


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