# schutzhund training vs. ordinary training



## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

when i said ordinary training, i meant to say those training conducted by a dog club, mom n pops dog clubs run by retired 60+ ladies.

i finally broke down and enrolled on a training/puppy class for $80 / 8 sessions.
when i was there, i was told not to play with my dog, not to get my dog excited, to tlak to my dog on a mellow voice so he wont get excited. everything i learned from schutzhund was wrong, on schutzhund, you engage with your dog. during ob excecises, we dont just got on the field and tell our dog to fuss, sitz, platz...we first engage it in a play, we play tug, we play ball, roughhouse a bit and then the OB while the dog is engaged with you.

 i walked out of there, now am gonna try to get my money back. i only attended 1 session and i believe their method of training is not the one i want. their training, i believe, is for labs, pets with mellow temperaments, not for high drive working dogs.

while heeling, i jogged then walked, then jogged...i was called out and told i'm doing it wrong:blush:. that i shouldnt jog, i should only be walking.

greatest $80 mistake of my life!

never posted a rant before, forgive my rant...am just so GRRRR!
never going back to any training/puppy class outside schutzhund ever!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

If you're already training with a SchH club, why did you sign up for another training class?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed, with everything except the part about labs. There are mellow dogs and high-drive dogs of any and every breed, including mixes. 

You should be able to get your money back. This happened to me too, and it took about a month, but I got it.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Freestep said:


> If you're already training with a SchH club, why did you sign up for another training class?


so will have something to do during wednesday and to socialize with other dogs.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Ha ha ha, I was told I was heeling "too fast" in my lessons too


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

rshkr said:


> their training, i believe, is for labs, pets with mellow temperaments, not for high drive working dogs.


Labs were bred for work. We have a pointing lab that comes to our club every so often and she's great. Attend some field and hunting dog trials. I bet your opinion of labs would change. 
Bird Dog Challenge World Championships Season 3 - Doubles Pointer Semi-Finals Part 1 - YouTube Cool vid. Neat sport. 
http://youtu.be/VnSDFFygFeE
http://youtu.be/bAlnxRBkIBo



> never going back to any training/puppy class outside schutzhund ever!!!


Too bad. You're missing out on tons of other great dog sports. To each his own. If IPO training works for you, continue with that!


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Labs were bred for work.


sure they can work, they make great bomb sniffing, drugs, therapy dogs...what i meant about mellow is compared to a high drive, high energy GSD and mali's in my schuzthund club, labs dont stand a chance< mellow!

btw, ever seen a lab that had gone ipo3?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

rshkr said:


> so will have something to do during wednesday and to socialize with other dogs.


It's a great place to train your dog, but not to recieve training. So long as you go in with the idea that you are using the class as a great place for distractions and proofing, keep going. It's also great to teach your dog to work around other dogs. 

I see so many SchH dogs that can't focus if there's any distraction at all, and how many of us have seen the dog on the long down break it? How many of us have seen dogs that start lunging at other dogs when they get within 20' of each other?

Taking a class can be a good thing for you and your dog.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

rshkr said:


> sure they can work, they make great bomb sniffing, drugs, therapy dogs...what i meant about mellow is compared to a high drive, high energy GSD and mali's in my schuzthund club, labs dont stand a chance< mellow!
> 
> btw, ever seen a lab that had gone ipo3?


IPO and Schh titles don't make the dog. IPO/Schh isn't the ultimate test to prove a dog worthiness. Sure, it's a great sport and I love participating in the sport, BUT it is _not_ the end all and be all to prove EVERY breed's worthiness. 

How many GSDs win hunting and pointing dog trials? 

High drive doesn't equal a "good" dog. Many K9/SAR/MWD would not be flashy or get high points in IPO sports, but excel in their REAL jobs. After all, isn't that the point of a "working" dog? To actually work instead of run some blinds and do a focused heel so you can squeeze out a few extra points?


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Elaine said:


> I see so many SchH dogs that can't focus if there's any distraction.


that's another thing, there's a little chiwawa in class that my dog goes gaga, everytime my dog sees him, the prey drive kicks in.



qbchottu said:


> IPO and Schh titles don't make the dog.


it doesnt make yours, but it does mine.
and whatever you say can't change my opinion. labs are mellow, let it go.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

rshkr said:


> it doesnt make yours, but it does mine.
> and whatever you say can't change my opinion. labs are mellow, let it go.


haha you have a lot to learn. Good luck in your endeavors


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

rshkr said:


> that's another thing, there's a little chiwawa in class that my dog goes gaga, everytime my dog sees him, the prey drive kicks in.


Yes, and you correct him for it. Where else are you going to get a controled setting like this to do just that? Do you want him to randomly lunge at strange dogs? He doesn't have to like other dogs, even little dogs, but he has to ignore them and continue working.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

Much of what is taught in ordinary obedience can be the complete opposite of what you want in your Sch. puppy. I want my dog a little loose, a little fast, and a little free before he starts to work. Training good little citizen canine's in the Caesar Milan mold can squash some spirit you might want later.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> haha you have a lot to learn.


i know, did i tell you this is my first dog? never owned a dog, nor anyone in my family.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

rshkr said:


> and whatever you say can't change my opinion.


It's your first dog and your first GSD. You are starting out in the sport as well. Keep an open mind. Statements like that hinder learning.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

rshkr said:


> and whatever you say can't change my opinion. labs are mellow, let it go.


Hahaha!! I take it you haven't met very many Labs. The majority of them are NOT mellow, though I wish they were. And I think there is a SchH titled Lab, or was. I have met a few mellow Labs, and they're great to work with, but definitely in the minority. But this thread isn't supposed to be about Labs.

How old is your pup? If I were you, I'd just use the Wednesday class for socializing and proofing commands, practicing the "slow" heel, etc. The instructor is probably focusing on "pet" training, manners, etc., which is fine, and doesn't necessarily have to be counterproductive to your SchH training. If the instructor is getting mad that your pup is showing too much drive in the training, explain to her that you're doing SchH also, and this is the type of attitude they like to see. If she thinks that it's messing up the class to have a high-drive dog getting other dogs riled up, then I'd ask for a refund and leave.


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## iloveshepherds (Jul 10, 2012)

that sounds like a really boring class...i would ask for my money back too.

with my shepherds...i always took them to the local puppy classes...and obedience...more for the bonding and the socialization. now that he is older I take him to the agility type classes...working more on the bonding.
but all the classes i have gone too, they want you to praise your dog.....so maybe see if that place offers a different trainer?
im just picturing a bunch of dogs walking around the building like a bunch of zombies.....LOL gotta make training fun!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Elaine. I always take puppy classes with my dogs. Luckily my instructor is supportive of how I train and that we do SchH. My puppies are not allowed to be wild and mouthy just because they do SchH but I train using the same principles whether it's puppy, SchH, agility, flyball..... One time this dog kept going crazy any time I use a toy to reward my dog, so after that I brought two of the same toys and let his owner use one.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And you might be interested to know that there are a lot of retired 60+ ladies doing Schutzhund training and being very good at it - no need to stereotype people. 

Yes, it does sound boring, but doing both type of training is a good all-around experience for our dogs. I've done both SchH and pet type training. Excellent way to proof focus and obedience among strong distractions, and great place for me to participate in indoor activities in the winter. 

For example, a lot of people here do SchH and kennel club type obedience and Rally - dogs can go from the SchH field to the crowded, indoor, noisy, distracting environment of formal obedience or Rally-O and do just as well, because they are used to working in different environments, proofed against lots of distractions, and able to respond to their owner's expectations. 

Pet training often does is pretty much as you described, because most people want a quiet, calm, mellow pet dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

You might want to see if there is a trainer in your area that also does SchH. My TD also teaches "regular obedience" classes. Most of my SchH club goes to her classes as well as club stuff. It is a great place to socialize and work different things. Even have a little fun. She knows we are sport people so she doesnt have us do anything to make our dogs go "flat". For the most part she trains all dogs that way.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You just went to a place that wasn't a good place for you to train. You went somewhere that is training pets. Find a place that is training for AKC obedience or rally-o. Maybe even agility and you'll see that although it depends a little on what the instructor believes in, they do train their dogs to do a different sport. Don't poo-poo on all the other sports/breeds because YOU CHOSE GSD and Schutzhund and now believe it is the only way to prove how great a dog is.

My GSD club trains for AKC obedience and rally. Although its not as connective as Schutzhund you still develop a great bond with your dog and people in there are starting to understand the Schutzhund type of training and mindset. It also helps to have a few people in there that also train Schutzhund. You just need to find an instructor and a place to train that is more to your liking.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> And you might be interested to know that there are a lot of retired 60+ ladies doing Schutzhund .


i'm not stereotyping, they said they are retired, it's them that said it; and you're right, there's even a couple 60+ in my schutzhund club. the difference? the 60+ something in my schutzzhund club shouts, yells, and does the native american war cry everytime her dog prances around with the sleeve. the 60+ ladies in the other club? well, a dog barked, and they said we will work on that. i wasnt even allowed to give my dog a pat on the head everytime he follows a command, and not say anything, only treat. NO FUN AT ALL!



Elaine said:


> Yes, and you correct him for it. Where else are you going to get a controled setting like this to do just that? Do you want him to randomly lunge at strange dogs? He doesn't have to like other dogs, even little dogs, but he has to ignore them and continue working.


i will ask my schutzhund trainer on saturday.



Dr. Teeth said:


> Training good little citizen canine's in the Caesar Milan mold can squash some spirit you might want later.


that's what i dont want, you should see this lab they made as a model, the trainer said the lab is 9months old, there's just no life in the lab. when the trainer went to the crate to get a treat and the lab followed (the lab was on a down/stay) the trainer grabbed the lab by the neck and scolded it.



qbchottu said:


> It's your first dog and your first GSD. You are starting out in the sport as well. Keep an open mind. Statements like that hinder learning.


i'm trying to keep an open mind, by the time iw as reading your post about my views on labs, i was still fuming. sorry.



Freestep said:


> How old is your pup? If I were you, I'd just use the Wednesday class for socializing and proofing commands, practicing the "slow" heel, etc. The instructor is probably focusing on "pet" training, manners, etc., which is fine, and doesn't necessarily have to be counterproductive to your SchH training. If the instructor is getting mad that your pup is showing too much drive in the training, explain to her that you're doing SchH also, and this is the type of attitude they like to see. If she thinks that it's messing up the class to have a high-drive dog getting other dogs riled up, then I'd ask for a refund and leave.


kimber is 5months, that's what am trying to do, get the wednesday as socialization. they offer puppy class but it's on saturdays and i go schutzhund that day. so i enrolled on puppy/level 1 ob on wednesday. BIG MISTAKE!



iloveshepherds said:


> that sounds like a really boring class...i would ask for my money back too.


boring is lightly putting it. 



mycobraracr said:


> You might want to see if there is a trainer in your area that also does SchH. My TD also teaches "regular obedience" classes. Most of my SchH club goes to her classes as well as club stuff. It is a great place to socialize and work different things. Even have a little fun. She knows we are sport people so she doesnt have us do anything to make our dogs go "flat". For the most part she trains all dogs that way.


thats the word! F-L-A-T!!! the dogs there were flat, no life at all. i dont want ym dog to be like that. it's like they killed the drive of the dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Like others have said....AKC obedience is very useful in working with our working dogs...but the trainer of the class needs to know you are working on another program and be in sync with it....I have always taken my dogs to AKC classes, done CDs etc....but the teachers of the classes were supportive....lol lol one used to call out during heeling...'for our schutzhund friends - lets do a German about turn" 

FTR - I know of one Lab who went SchH3 multiple times, Licorice Rush, owned by Laurie Ceceralli (sp?) in Idaho....

Lee


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have had mine in obedience, rally, and we had Zoey in one for DA dogs. None of the classes were operated the way you mention. Praising and contact with your dog (with enthusiasm) was strongly encouraged and I don't recall anyone getting called out for a little barking either. They were not as exciting as shutzhund, but they were well worth it just for the controlled socialization alone.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Really for real life, I think schutzhund training is the most self-limiting and 'backward' of all the training. Not saying it's wrong, but basically anything I learned in training class, was the complete opposite for sch.

I would love to do both, but I was told by sch. people that jumping on people and (play) biting should not be discouraged. When I asked about taking my dog out in public and if that would not be a problem I was told "That's why they make leashes"

I'm sorry, but I have a disabled sister. That behaviour is not acceptable to me.

I am not knocking sch people, as I mentioned I'd like to try it out. But I am still taking my pup to training class. I think sch dogs need to learn to behave in public and around other dogs.

I also think they are highly intelligent dogs and know when they are one a sch field, vs out in public and can adjust accordingly. They have these genetics bred into them that can't be trained out. They can be trained to control their impulses, but I don't think you'll have a problem turning it on when you need to! 

I also don't want to limit my dog to just sch. She's having a blast doing flyball, I'd maybe also like to try herding and disc dogs/ dock dogs.

Pet training is far more versatile as far as doing other dog sports. I have also found that sch people, the breeder, the training class people and my flyball people all train things differently. I'm taking it all with a grain of salt and modifying things so they work better for me. It was either that or go crazy, or only do one sport because they were all contradicting one another. 

And I think sometimes people see a very well trained dog and assume that "behaving" means they 'have no spirit' which I don't think is correct.

Try to stay open minded. I'm wondering if you maybe landed in maybe not the best training facility, as my instructors have been really wonderful about allowing me to modify the training techniques somewhat.

FWIW - my dog's sire does dock dogs, disc dogs, herding etc. He's in training to get his sch 2 this fall. His owner thinks the other dog sports and training has helped him a lot with his sch. training. He went to doggy daycare for socializing as a pup. He's an incredible sch dog, and a perfect gentleman to boot. Not hard on the eyes either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Adding to blackshep...although I am in awe of schutzhund dogs and I don't think I've seen a single one that was bad in public, they are a lifestyle. OP, you talk about killing the drive of the dog, that's what pet owners want. They don't need a dog that makes its own decisions, or a dog that's uncontrollable. Most people want a nice calm dog, and pet trainers are there to do that.

The fact that having a schutzhund dog is a lifestyle is that for a while you do allow your dog certain freedoms. Not everyone is in a situation where they can allow their dogs to do that. And unless you've grown up in the culture it sometimes takes a large shift in your life to have a schutzhund dog. It's not just the training weekends, its the fact that your dog is drivier and more excitable and you don't look down on that. I train for obedience and rally and I didn't kill the drives of my dog. I do a lot of the same stuff you do on the schutzhund field, minus the protection work.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

rshkr said:


> sure they can work, they make great bomb sniffing, drugs, therapy dogs...what i meant about mellow is compared to a high drive, high energy GSD and mali's in my schuzthund club, labs dont stand a chance< mellow!
> 
> btw, ever seen a lab that had gone ipo3?


 
BTW, have *You *ever seen a field champion Lab out in their field hunting and retrieving?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BTW2 - EXTREMELY HIGH DRIVE dog!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

rshkr said:


> when i said ordinary training, i meant to say those training conducted by a dog club, mom n pops dog clubs run by retired 60+ ladies.
> 
> i finally broke down and enrolled on a training/puppy class for $80 / 8 sessions.
> when i was there, i was told not to play with my dog, not to get my dog excited, to tlak to my dog on a mellow voice so he wont get excited. everything i learned from schutzhund was wrong, on schutzhund, you engage with your dog. during ob excecises, we dont just got on the field and tell our dog to fuss, sitz, platz...we first engage it in a play, we play tug, we play ball, roughhouse a bit and then the OB while the dog is engaged with you.
> ...


I hear you. I hear you, I hear you. 

For SAR we either have to have a finished basic obedience class or the CGC. This area is very rural and in our city there is an AKC Club that is only active during summer time and maybe a class during autumn but over wintertime there is nothing, nada... 

I enrolled, had two classes and left. It's ridiculous. In a small indoor place, you've got over dogs walking in a circle. Methods from 1960 and a Trainer that suggests you to put rubberband around your dogs mouth if they are too "barky". 

Not for me. Definitely not for me... :help:


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

blackshep said:


> Really for real life, I think schutzhund training is the most self-limiting and 'backward' of all the training. Not saying it's wrong, but basically anything I learned in training class, was the complete opposite for sch.
> 
> I would love to do both, but I was told by sch. people that jumping on people and (play) biting should not be discouraged. When I asked about taking my dog out in public and if that would not be a problem I was told "That's why they make leashes"
> 
> ...


I think you are falling into the (what is lately becoming common here) trap of generalizing based on one experience.

We do schutzhund, my dog is well behaved in public.

The type of thinking associated with what you heard is a bit "old-school" IMO - Those same people might tell you "dont do any obedience until the dog is at least 1 year old". But as we now know, inductive obedience can be started as early as the moment the puppy steps into your home (vs coercive or compulsion based obedience which yes should not be done on a puppy).

Many members of this forum cross train, and their dogs show no problems adjusting for either training environment. I know people here who do dock diving, flyball, agility, AKC OB, Schutzhund, etc etc and their dogs are just fine with it (in fact, I'd bet they would be so grateful for having it if they knew what other dogs get from their owners  ).

My dog does schutzhund, but I in no way allow him to jump on strangers or behave in a bratty way.

But, when we are training, we rough and tumble, I let him climb on me to snatch the toy from me (after the release). I let him chase me, I make him bark and get him crazzyyyyy, we play rough, I smack him on the ribs (lightly of course) and we just have a great time together. When the toys are put away, and I tell him "done" he knows its time to behave himself and be a great citizen - a true representative of the breed! I'm not sure a lot of "8 week obedience" graduates can say the same, as I often witness at off leash dog parks and on our walks.

All I'm trying to say is - to each his/her own but please keep an open mind and don't generalize based on one experience. Go visit other clubs, speak to other people who cross-train or people who do schutzhund, dock-diving, AKC obedience and get different points of view... and keep an open mind. One person does not represent schutzhund and every person likes to train differently.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

My TD at schutzhund has a good philosophy and I 100% agree with him.

"You don't want to kill drive, but at the same time, you want a dog you can live with. Some dogs are for schutzhund, and sch only. That's fine. The dog lives in a kennel. But if you want a house dog, you need a dog that isn't behaving like an a$$ all the time. You're going to have to do some things to squash some drive. I'd sacrifice a whole lot of sch stuff to have a dog I can live with."

Nothing wrong with a good companion animal. Those are some of the best dogs in the world. Get one that can also work at the proper times, and you are golden. 

I cross train my sch. dog for skijor, and detection and I'll start disc dog once she is done growing (in six months or so). If I let her run wild she'd be chasing and grabbing bike tires, going after pant legs, barking at everyone, and trying to herd every dog she sees. Nope, that is not good public behavior. Do I squelch some drive to train her to act reasonably in public? Yes. Is that OK with me? Yes. Because I want a dog I can live with.

We are not perfect- especially working on dog reactivity. There are things she is allowed to do when playing with me (jumping, grabbing tug, barking, etc.) that I wouldn't do with my 'pet' dogs. But that is allowed and controlled. It may have taken a bit of the edge off her schutzhund work, but that is only a small part of my life and I am fine with it.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

rshkr said:


> when i said ordinary training, i meant to say those training conducted by a dog club, mom n pops dog clubs run by retired 60+ ladies.


The only possible bad thing about *60+ year old retired ladies* is that they have been successfully training obedience champions for 40+ years and will likely use some compulsion methods. I have found this to be true with some trainers at the club I train at.

However, there are some really excellent trainers at my club. As with any club, some trainers are better than others. From what I've seen of Schutzhund clubs, I wouldn't want to ruin my dog training at one of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To the OP:

Please leave and don't come back to our 60+ retired couple training class. We really don't want your hyper dog-aggressive dog there. We certainly do not need to hear war-cries when working our dogs that will be ordinary pets, and AKC-type obedience/rally dogs. If we want to jazz them up, we can get a little louder with agility. But most of us want a calm dog with good manners whether we are walking along the bike path, or going to the vet, or going to a show. And we really do not need the kind of distraction that dog-aggressive and hyper dogs can be to our classes. 

Evenso, we are very tolerant of them, and we do not kick them out, we expect their owners are trying to work with them, and we try to be patient because they need the classes, and if they work with the dog, it will be less likely to land in a pound on death row somewhere. So, we try to steer clear of an incident, but we allow our dogs to be subjected to such behavior so that the people can work with the dog. If you do not have that problem, then there is no reason for you to bring your dog to the classes. I hope the trainer gives you your money back. 

If she doesn't, I can understand that too. Many of these trainers will limit their class size so that each member gets enough attention. Therefore by allowing you into the class, she may have turned another person down. In that case, she probably has a non-refundable clause, and if she does, then rack it up to being inexperienced about such things. The price is often highly dependent on what it costs to rent the space for that time divided by the number of the class, or to pay for electricity/heat, or to maintain the field, as well as her own compensation. $80 for 8 classes is a GREAT price, and it is a great opportunity to work on that dog aggression stuff you have going on. But Many of the under 40 crowd know just about everything about everything even if they have never owned a dog before, and I doubt you will bother. 

Lastly, I had a class that was quite boring, and the instructor offered a puppy class, wasn't enough puppies and made it an adult class. Then my 10 week old puppy was bored out of her mind waiting around for her turn. I decided to jazz it up a little just for her. And we did a bit of our own thing while others were taking turns. Through the years, I have found that regardless of the class make up, and the instructor, we can generally adjust the class enough to get a lot of good out of it, without changing the overall look and feel. Therefore, your end experience in any class is highly dependent on you.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> We do schutzhund, my dog is well behaved in public
> every person likes to train differently.


EXACTLY!
do you guys ever seen post about any problem behavior with my dog in the house and in public? NADA, because i have no problem whatsoever. maybe that's your dog , not mine!



Mrs.K said:


> I enrolled, had two classes and left. It's ridiculous. In a small indoor place, you've got over dogs walking in a circle. :help:


that's what we did, go around in circles in a space the size of a 3 caar garage. and ypou know what? when you go aroudn in circles, my dog seees the tiny chiwawa and prey drive kicks in!



Muskeg said:


> "You don't want to kill drive, but at the same time, you want a dog you can live with. Some dogs are for schutzhund, and sch only.


i already have the nailed down. i ahve no problem with ym dog inhouse and in public, my dog doesnt lunge at other dogs when we are walking. my dog is not reactive. i dont want to kill any drive at all so i cna live with my dog, i'm already living with him.

do you ever see all those people talked about off switch when inside the house. that's the dog i have. i ahve the perfect dog. 

i'm sorry for your reactive dog. that's not my dog.



FlyAway said:


> The only possible bad thing about *60+ year old retired ladies* is that they have been successfully training obedience champions for 40+ years and will likely use some compulsion methods. I have found this to be true with some trainers at the club I train at.
> 
> However, there are some really excellent trainers at my club. As with any club, some trainers are better than others. From what I've seen of Schutzhund clubs, I wouldn't want to ruin my dog training at one of them.


exactly- about the trainers!!! 
my dog can't be ruined. it's in his genes.

i'm sorry to read all those people having problems with their dogs, but that's not my dog. i'm sorry if you'd ruin your dog,training in schutzhund.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I train in SchH and do private lessons in obedience. The obedience trainer USE to use the methods that you saw at your class. NOW she(along with many others in the area) is using tug, engagement, drive building and capping for training.
Bridget Carlsen is bringing 'her' methods into the competitive obedience world and even though we've been doing it in SchH, many of the old timer obedience people are now changing up their programs because of the results they are seeing in their training techniques. 



> From what I've seen of Schutzhund clubs, I wouldn't want to ruin my dog training at one of them.


How many clubs and trainers have you gone to, to get that opinion?


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

selzer said:


> To the OP:
> 
> Please leave and don't come back to our 60+ retired couple training class. We really don't want your hyper dog-aggressive dog there. We certainly do not need to hear war-cries when working our dogs that will be ordinary pets, and AKC-type obedience/rally dogs. If we want to jazz them up, we can get a little louder with agility. But most of us want a calm dog with good manners whether we are walking along the bike path, or going to the vet, or going to a show. And we really do not need the kind of distraction that dog-aggressive and hyper dogs can be to our classes.
> 
> ...


 to you, i stopped reading at hyper dog-aggressive. ROFLMAO. even the old ladies said my dog isnt aggressive. hi play/prey drive yes, but not aggressive. i even want my dog to be aggressive, to bite everyone who type long replies on forums. heck, am not going back there even if they pay me $100 per session, $200, i'll have to think about it!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Muskeg*
> _"You don't want to kill drive, but at the same time, you want a dog you can live with. Some dogs are for schutzhund, and sch only. _


you can have a high drive dog that still knows how to settle at home and knows how to behave in public.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

FlyAway said:


> The only possible bad thing about *60+ year old retired ladies* is that they have been successfully training obedience champions for 40+ years and will likely use some compulsion methods. I have found this to be true with some trainers at the club I train at.
> 
> However, there are some really excellent trainers at my club. As with any club, some trainers are better than others. From what I've seen of Schutzhund clubs, I wouldn't want to ruin my dog training at one of them.


My 60+ year old retired lady trainer, is an AKC Judge, therapy dog evaluator, canine good citizen evaluator, and has been successfully training obedience and rally for many, many years, and have successfully helped many students successfully train their dogs to their titles. She stays up to date in training methods, has a huge tool box, and while she does seem to prefer prongs, or most of the pet dogs do come in prongs, she is not afraid to say that that is a bit much for this dog, etc. Yes, she will set a dog up so that it can be corrected, but she also is very into teaching the dog positively, praising the dog, using a variety of methods and tools and treats, etc. 

I think some of the older trainers out there may be afraid to change from the methods that have worked through years and years of experience. But at least they have had years and years of experience. I have to admit, that I have never seen this mom and pop trainer-couple lose control and abuse any animal. They do not put up with it either if someone tries that. 

I have no reservations about recommending them to people.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the other hick-up with "pet" classes is that they are multi-breed. There are just different ways to teach the different breeds and the instructor kind of has to go with what works for most dogs. I know for a fact that most instructors at my GSD club wouldn't be able to train other breeds. They need the harder, drivier dogs, to have their methods work. So to just rip all regular classes is wrong, its just a different environment for people that aren't looking for the same thing you are.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

rshkr said:


> to you, i stopped reading at hyper dog-aggressive. ROFLMAO. even the old ladies said my dog isnt aggressive. hi play/prey drive yes, but not aggressive. i even want my dog to be aggressive, to bite everyone who type long replies on forums. heck, am not going back there even if they pay me $100 per session, $200, i'll have to think about it!


Good, I am sure they really do not want an inexperienced know-it-all threatening their chihuahuas.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

rshkr said:


> EXACTLY!
> do you guys ever seen post about any problem behavior with my dog in the house and in public? NADA, because i have no problem whatsoever. maybe that's your dog , not mine!
> 
> i ahve the perfect dog.
> ...


These lines made me chuckle. This is your first dog and he's 5 months old, right?

Give it time


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

For someone who is new to gsd's, as well as schutzhund - your words not mine - you sure like to act as if you know everything 

I'm glad you got it all figured out, and I wish you all the best. I mean this in the most passive aggressive way possible  

I can promise you this - you don't know as much as you think you do. And I can tell you this - there are some people on this forum that know much more than both you and I about dog training and about GSDs and for your benefit I hope you stop being so full of yourself and actually listen to some of the advice these people try to give you, despite your terrible attitude...


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

opcorn: 
...I'm retired and like all dog work..Schutzhund included. 
Oh, and I'm female


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> These lines made me chuckle. This is your first dog and he's 5 months old, right?
> 
> Give it time


seriously, i dont think i'll ruin the dog. it's in his genes and i have his breeder on speed dial. i'm not raising this boy alone. everytime am not sure of something, i call the breeder, i think they already found me to be an annoyance but they just wouldnt say it.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> For someone who is new to gsd's, as well as schutzhund - your words not mine - you sure like to act as if you know everything
> 
> I'm glad you got it all figured out, and I wish you all the best. I mean this in the most passive aggressive way possible
> 
> ...


did i say i know everything? did i say anything about knowing stuff? i know crap.

am just ranting about the training i've been having with schutzhund against the training i just received this morning; that i dont like the training this morning because it's FLAT and BORING! where does it indicate that i act like i know everything? so what if i dont listen to advices on these thread, if you're not lee, cliff, carmen or chris, vandal, fast, your opinion doesnt weight much on me no matter how much knowledge you have.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

rshkr said:


> seriously, i dont think i'll ruin the dog. it's in his genes and i have his breeder on speed dial. i'm not raising this boy alone. everytime am not sure of something, i call the breeder, i think they already found me to be an annoyance but they just wouldnt say it.


I don't think anyone thinks you'll ruin your dog. It's just that you come off as extremely cocky. You're calling your dog perfect and all that. And I didn't even know he was only 5 months old. I'm guessing you're military? From your avatar...maybe single? No kids? Think about how much more time you have on your hands to deal with your dog than 99% of the dog owners out there.

I'm not saying this as a bad thing...I live with my GF and my dog is also the only thing I really HAVE to devote time to. So of course for his age he is much much much better behaved than other dogs out there. People that don't have the time to deal with natural drives, and don't understand how to, will not take the time to learn. They need their dogs to be walked by children, be around children, and be trusted, so the training program tends to squash some of those drives. It's sad to see, but it helps to keep dogs out of shelters and in homes, so I have no issue with it.

Also for someone just starting to train...don't think that the way you've been taught is the end all be all. You've done what, 3 months of training? You will learn so much in the next year, and in the next decade while dealing with this dog. Next one, you'll do things different. I made so many mistakes with my dog (my first also) but luckily, he's like yours, I can't ruin him. He's just rock solid, and we've worked through my inadequacies together.

It's not really about using that other method, its about understanding why its there and who its useful for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> so what if i dont listen to advices on these thread, if you're not lee, cliff, carmen or chris, vandal, fast, your opinion doesnt weight much on me no matter how much knowledge you have.


rshkr....why do you even post then? 
Public forum, public opinions. If you want *certain* people only to chime in, maybe you should pm them....though I wouldn't really expect much help with the attitude you are showing. They have busy lives training their own dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

rshkr said:


> did i say i know everything? did i say anything about knowing stuff? i know crap.
> 
> am just ranting about the training i've been having with schutzhund against the training i just received this morning; that i dont like the training this morning because it's FLAT and BORING! where does it indicate that i act like i know everything? so what if i dont listen to advices on these thread, if you're not lee, cliff, carmen or chris, vandal, fast, your opinion doesnt weight much on me no matter how much knowledge you have.


Pat me on the head, and slap me on the back, I got me a working line dog, I like working line people and I don't give a poopie about anyone else. 

I am sure the above mentioned people actually do listen to a lot of what some of the others on this board have to say about many things. Probably because you don't ever get to be knowledgeable if you close your mind and refuse to listen.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I'm guessing you're military? From your avatar...maybe single? No kids?


yes, yes and yes...my avatar is that of the 1st recon bn insigna, out of camp pendleton. 39years old, jobless and living with a dog. however, i'm retired, got out last year, 20 yrs in service.



onyx'girl said:


> rshkr....why do you even post then?
> Public forum, public opinions. If you want *certain* people only to chime in, maybe you should pm them....though I wouldn't really expect much help with the attitude you are showing. They have busy lives training their own dogs.


for the record, i value yours.
well, some posts i find personal, they fired first, i just fired back..mostly with sarcasm.

i'm going out for a beer with friends & hopefully some bar fight to blow off steam. have fun!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

My wife took Ruger to Basic Dog Obedience when he was 4 or 5 months old. It was something fun for her to do and gave her a lot more confidence in handling him. The trainer loved Ruger. She constantly used him for demonstrations on how to train and correct your dog. He was such a fast learner and would take any kind of correction very well. She should have paid us for his assistance.  

By the way, it never hurt his performance on the schutzhund field. He goes for his BH in October!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Give the man a break. He just wanted to rant his frustration away, not a lecture and I can absolutely understand where he is coming from. I have the same **** problem. There is NOTHING around here and if you don't want to drive hours and hours and spend top dollars you don't stand a chance. For somebody that wants to be active with their dogs and learn more than a boring down and sit, that is a "disaster". 

So yes, I understand his frustration and understand why he is ranting away, so let him rant!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> All I'm trying to say is - to each his/her own but please keep an open mind and don't generalize based on one experience. Go visit other clubs, speak to other people who cross-train or people who do schutzhund, dock-diving, AKC obedience and get different points of view... and keep an open mind. One person does not represent schutzhund and every person likes to train differently.


This is exactly what I mean though.  Same goes for pet training places, if one isn't working for you, maybe take a look at another.

It maybe isn't totally ideal for raising a sch dog, but it does give you an opportunity to train with lots of other dogs around and help get your dog to focus on you, even with distractions. Especially if you are a fist time dogs owner or first time GSD owner. Sometimes it's worth persevering, as your dog will at the very least get lots of exposure to working with distractions etc. I'd talk to the instructor and tell them what your plans for the dog are and tell them you may have to modify the training somewhat. A good trainer should be open to that.

Sch dogs are cool! I want to do it with my pup, if she's got what it takes. But i definitely want a well socialized pup who is civil, so I just do my own thing. I think if she's got the genetics and disposition for sch, that the other training won't cause a problem.

ETA: I should add that I'm lucky I have so many dog training places and dog sport places close by. If it were limited and I didn't like the trainers that were available locally, that would be really frustrating, I get that.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Food for thought .







All kidding aside, if you aren't enjoying the class or the training style, time to move on.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with if you aren't enjoying it -its time to move on--but also what selzer posted --we really enjoy our akc classes-we get lots of distractions and we can use our ball-and no one has a problem with her being drivey--she's bitten me a few times in class-gets a little too excited


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OP, that class did not sound suitable for you. Find one that is more geared to competitive obedience instead of household pet people. Then you may still find that not all classes or instructors are suitable.



I, a 20 plus year SchH competitor (and 30 year obedience handler), also train with AKC people and feel it is good for my dogs to train away from the limited confines of the SchH field. There are AKC people that can teach you an awful lot. Many may not know what to do with the freer and drivier style of SchH obedience, but many can work with you. The woman I train with when starting my young dogs often asks me how I train certain things, about what we want and need and is very tolerant of my more physical way of playing with my dog. She actually wishes more of her students could get their dogs to engage that way. Recently she also commented about how well our dogs know how to out toys and asked how we teach it.



Something also to note; most of the new methods of training dogs for SchH obedience came from the AKC obedience world. We have fine tuned them to work with our dogs, but they were the first. Best of luck with your puppy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

bocron said:


> Food for thought .
> 
> Labrador protection, schutzhund, IPO training Bozso 2009  - YouTube
> 
> ...


Oh my... bocron, careful. How DARE you post a video of a dog doing SchH who is supposed to have a soft mouth... 

Here some more food for thought: 
Dear Jack vom Eifelgestüt Video - Goldenjack - MyVideo


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...oh no...I saw a couple of beaucrons the other day -their owners were speaking french-cool looking dogs-sorry off topic


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I, a 20 plus year SchH competitor (and 30 year obedience handler), also train with AKC people and *feel it is good for my dogs to train away from the limited confines of the SchH field. *There are AKC people that can teach you an awful lot. Many may not know what to do with the freer and drivier style of SchH obedience, but many can work with you. The woman I train with when starting my young dogs often asks me how I train certain things, about what we want and need and is very tolerant of my more physical way of playing with my dog. She actually wishes more of her students could get their dogs to engage that way. Recently she also commented about how well our dogs know how to out toys and asked how we teach it.


Great post. Unbiased and based on experience. :thumbup:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> Great post. Unbiased and based on experience. :thumbup:


I don't think anyone has anything against training away from the training field IF it contributes to the training and doesn't throw you lightyears back from what the dog already knows. 

As long as you have a trainer, outside training that knows what he/she is doing nobody has anything against it but I would not advise, not even a beginner, to go to the local club, simply because from what I've experienced there myself and from what I've heard lately, from people I know personally and their dogs. 

One dog was labeled aggressive and they wanted to send her back to basic simply because she was nibbling on the food hand and a bit to drivey for the local trainer. 
They felt she was going to bite her handler and they advised her to hit her on the nose everytime she wants to take food out of her handlers hand. 

Since she's also vocal they advised her to tie her mouth with rubberband so she can't bark anymore. 

They now work with a private trainer and no longer with the club. 
That is not what anyone needs and doesn't contribute to what anyone is doing.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't think anyone has anything against training away from the training field IF it contributes to the training and doesn't throw you lightyears back from what the dog already knows.
> 
> As long as you have a trainer, outside training that knows what he/she is doing nobody has anything against it but I would not advise, not even a beginner, to go to the local club, simply because from what I've experienced there myself and from what I've heard lately, from people I know personally and their dogs.
> 
> ...


Hehe but that's not Schutzhund vs. AKC OB training - that's just a club that needs to be shut down  Anyone who advises me to put a rubber band around my dog's mouth - actually I won't do anything, because I won't be able to stop laughing long enough to reply...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

MrsK: How does me commending Lisa's post have anything to do with your particular experience which turned out negative? 

I'm used to reading hardline, polarizing and aggressive posts on here from so called "experienced" people. It's refreshing to see someone knowledgeable post in a courteous and approachable manner with an unbiased POV. Good stuff


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

rshkr said:


> yes, yes and yes...my avatar is that of the 1st recon bn insigna, out of camp pendleton. 39years old, jobless and living with a dog. however, i'm retired, got out last year, 20 yrs in service.
> 
> for the record, i value yours.
> well, some posts i find personal, they fired first, i just fired back..mostly with sarcasm.
> ...


Slow down man there is a lot to this whole dog training thing. I used to be an exclusive Cesar Milan fan, I thought his way was the only way and there was nothing more to learn. Then when I got interested in working a GSD in sport...a whole new world opened up to me. Not that you can coordinate both ideoligies but there are many ways to get to the end of the same road.

FYI Iv had a few dogs, for you to say your dog is perfect at 5 months is the equivelent of me saying Im a combat proven marine after going through 2 weeks of basic. Your dog has a long way to go before you can make that assumption. By all means if the training is boring do something else but be more open minded.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lol


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

what a long thread, op so you might loose 80 bucks, just move on and find a place you and trainer you like.


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