# From the working line of German Shepherds which type makes a natural guard dog?



## Mike1982 (Jul 23, 2016)

I have owned a german shepherd in the past but now I'm looking for one which has a more sharper temperament. Which lines of german shepherds are known to have highest amount of defensive drive and need very minimal amount of protection work to protect?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog with the minimal amount of protection work to protect will probably take the maximum amount of work to keep under control and avoid wrongful bite and liability risks.

defensive won't protect you -- don't go looking for a reactive loose cannon.


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

Mike1982 said:


> I have owned a german shepherd in the past but now I'm looking for one which has a more sharper temperament. Which lines of german shepherds are known to have highest amount of defensive drive and need very minimal amount of protection work to protect?


I could be wrong about this, but all the breeders I talked to said that GSDs are natural protectors and will basically protect without being "taught" to. My puppy is 18 weeks and a west german show line, and she is already showing protection instincts... Are you looking for a companion at home or to do something more with the dog?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an 18 week old puppy should not be showing protection instincts.

more than likely this is defensive , fear based.

make sure you socialize and train this pup properly. Do not reward or encourage this behaviour.


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

carmspack said:


> an 18 week old puppy should not be showing protection instincts.
> 
> more than likely this is defensive , fear based.
> 
> make sure you socialize and train this pup properly. Do not reward or encourage this behaviour.


Oh Carm. You always think you know me so well. You don't even know what behavior I was referencing.


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## STX45 (Jan 9, 2016)

One of the reasons I am a silent member here. Someone always thinks their way is the only way and they inflict that opinion with a merciless sledgehammer.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Ripley2016 said:


> Oh Carm. You always think you know me so well. You don't even know what behavior I was referencing.



Well what protective behavior are you seeing?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

So I've been doing a lot of research on this very topic. And even though I raised many dogs in the past, I was a total newb to this issue. Speaking with experts who do this for a living for 30 years, there is no way you can calculate how a puppy will protect you as an adult. The ONLY thing to look for is 1. Genetics and 2. drive. As a pup they only have prey drive, make sure the pup has this because you can turn prey drive into different types of drive as they mature. Genetics is the most important part. So you should look at the parents and the pedigree. I would pick a working line pup with tons of drive if I was looking for a protection prospect. And then you have to really not screw up the training for the first year because you can ruin a dog for life just with a stupid "experiment" that may pop into your head. DO NOT DO ANYTHING besides play with the pup to build drive (tug, fetch, tracking is great to teach the dog to work for you), and light obedience. Too much obedience kills their spirit. This is what experts have told me anyways.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Just my personal opinion: I don't think it's fair to buy a puppy with a job in mind and expect it to pick these skills up on their own. And like anything, you get what you put in. Yes, some dogs will have more innate ability, but they still need practice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A good protector is a dog who is socially stable and has a good play drive as a pup, followed up by intense training. A 18 week old pup that is "protecting" is just protecting itself. Nothing heroic about it. This dog will probably hide in case of violence against you or bite out of fear when a child runs by.
You cannot expect a pup to grow up as a protector by wait-and-see.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ripley2016 said:


> Oh Carm. You always think you know me so well. You don't even know what behavior I was referencing.


Your post reads like many others who claim their pup is exhibiting protective behavoir, more often then not its fear based. I'm not saying that's the case with what you're seeing, only how it sounds. 

As for the OP, a highly defensive dog with little training sounds like a liability. What is this dogs purpose, protection of a person? home?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

STX45 said:


> One of the reasons I am a silent member here. Someone always thinks their way is the only way and they inflict that opinion with a merciless sledgehammer.


That's why you should post and prove them wrong.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ripley I don't know you - but I know dogs! and that is what we are talking about.

there is no protective behaviour from an 18 week old.

that is the very last dog that I would select for Personal protection, Law enforcement -- anything requiring
confidence, courage and stability .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mike1982 said:


> I have owned a german shepherd in the past but now I'm looking for one which has a more sharper temperament. Which lines of german shepherds are known to have highest amount of defensive drive and need very minimal amount of protection work to protect?


If you need personal protection and don't want to work at it, pay for a trained adult dog. It will run $10,000 or more. If you want to train a puppy to protect you, before you even research lines, find a local IPO club and go to their training sessions for a year. By the end of that time, you will know enough about how to train a PP dog and will have plenty of resources on breeders.

The way you asked the question shows you are too inexperienced to handle a sharp dog. There is no minimal amount of training for protection. It takes a lot more time than you sound like you want to spend training a dog. You get back what you put into it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Just because a puppy barks at something does not make it protective, LOL. Common misconception about all GSDs being protective (it comes from genetics, not all GSDs have it, and it comes from breeders who work their dogs in bite-work and protection venues so that they can identify which dogs have the correct genetics. 

Protective instinct develops when a GSD is mature, aroound 18-24 months old, sometimes around 12 months in some lines that mature early, or even not until the dog is 3 years old or more in other lines that mature late. Saying that an 18 week old is showing protectiveness is like saying that a toddler is being protective (well, maybe the same way a toddler will scream when in an emotional melt-down and drive all the people around it away). 

Carmen's writing style is a bit terse, but one can't deny the knowledge she has, and it would serve people well to think about some posts with an open mind and take things like a personal attack, when it is just relaying facts (Fact: 18 month old puppies do NOT display protective behaviour - hackling and barking at something that surprised the pup is not protectiveness.) read here for some information on what protectiveness looks like:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/156050-protective-fearful.html

Mike, to answer your question: I think all the working lines can have more or less natural protectiveness and sharpness - not sure if sharpness is what you want, you may regret getting a dog that is sharp. Instead of looking for a specific line, I'd look for breeders that have a track record of producing stable, high-threshhold police dogs, PP dogs, successful IPO and other bite-sport type dogs.


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## Zen327 (Jul 21, 2016)

IS there a guide on the forum that can direct you to specific types of training that will gain your dog the desired outcome? ie, a tracking training, guard dog training, show dog training etc...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If you are interested in any of these venues, there are sub-sections on the forum for tracking, personal protection training, conformation, etc. 

You can scroll down from the main index to find these forums, post questions, and get information on where to look to find training classes or training clubs.


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

You guys. Calm down. I've had a bunch of dogs in my life and my GSD is way more alert and intuitive about her home and surroundings than any other dog I've had. She isn't being aggressive or whatever you are thinking. It's her "instinct" to be aware of what's going on that I was referring to. Geez.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Ripley2016 said:


> You guys. Calm down. I've had a bunch of dogs in my life and my GSD is way more alert and intuitive about her home and surroundings than any other dog I've had. She isn't being aggressive or whatever you are thinking. It's her "instinct" to be aware of what's going on that I was referring to. Geez.


I don't think it's your comment that people are reacting to but in context to what the OP asked. That person seems to have an idea about personal protection dogs that isnt correct. I could be wrong, but I'm reading something into the OP's question that is opposite from my own experience.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mike1982 said:


> I have owned a german shepherd in the past but now I'm looking for one which has a more sharper temperament. Which lines of german shepherds are known to have highest amount of defensive drive and need very minimal amount of protection work to protect?


can you describe what your other dog was like and what lines he came from .

quote Ripley "My puppy is 18 weeks and a west german show line, and she is already showing protection instincts."

wish Ripley would elucidate exactly what behaviour she was referencing.

What evidence is there for already showing protection instincts ?

Better question what is the dog exposed to , what threat , that would bring out any behaviour that could be construed as protective (self or other).

Your best dog for protection is the most secure dog , bright and aware , able to bond , able to be directed , able to discern when there is threat and when there is not.

there are a couple of threads currently running on choosing puppies and asking to have some pedigrees analysed .

if we had more information from you we could direct you into the type that you are looking for.


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## Mike1982 (Jul 23, 2016)

What I'm looking for is a German shepherd with a very naturally aggressive temperament where it needs no protection training and also stable with family.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mike1982 said:


> What I'm looking for is a German shepherd with a very naturally aggressive temperament where it needs no protection training and also stable with family.


You aren't going to get that without putting time into training. It's not possible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mike1982 said:


> What I'm looking for is a German shepherd with a very naturally aggressive temperament where it needs no protection training and also stable with family.


How do you plan on controlling such a dog? I come to your door and your dog lights up in aggression. How do you call your dog off? How does your dog know a threat from a non-threat? Is this dog just working on its own? or taking cues from you?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is my suggestion...

Buy an adult. You never know what you'll get with a puppy. Puppies do not show defensive instincts in the way you are defining it. Young dogs will start to about 1 yr old and older. About 2yrs, then you know what you have. 

Find a breeder that breeds stable, confident, dogs. That works them in IPO or another sport with protection, that trains them as PPD's. And look for the adults that are for sale. You'll pay more but you'll know exactly what you have.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Your best dog for protection is the most secure dog , bright and aware , able to bond , able to be directed , able to discern when there is threat and when there is not.
> 
> Plus
> 
> confidence, courage and stability


Equals a good protection dog candidate.


How you get there is up to you. If you really need protection, buy a good dog from a good vendor / breeder that offers handler training and then keep up with sustainment training. 

If you are interested in learning about protection training, dog selection and want the benefits of having a dog with which you participated in it's training, find a club and join.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Mike1982 said:


> I have owned a german shepherd in the past but now I'm looking for one which has a more sharper temperament. Which lines of german shepherds are known to have highest amount of defensive drive and need very minimal amount of protection work to protect?


OP, you're asking a simple question that has no simple answer. IMHO, there are very few dogs which one could say naturally acts, behaves and works as a guard dog...also what exactly do you mean by "guard dog?" One man's guard dog, may be considered a poorly-trained, junkyard dog by another's standards.

I don't consider the GSD, or any of the police-style herding breeds (Malinois, Dutch Shepherds, ect.) to be natural guard dogs....their working lines (and even some show-oriented lines) will exhibit protective and guarding instincts with little to no training. But without proper training and socializing, those instincts can lead to big problems for the dog and you, the owner. Also, being of the herding type, many of these dogs will have some amount of prey drive, if not a lot of it, which again, without proper training, can lead to behavioral problems. I consider the GSD, and Malinois and DS to be working dogs; meaning with the right training and upbringing they can be used for a variety of functional jobs (police work, SAR, herding, agility sports, hunting, general farm dog).

But it is unrealistic to expect a GSD to become a "guard dog" without some amount of training. And again, what do you mean by "guard dog?" If all you want is a dog that will sit around your property watching out for hostile critters (both 4-legged and 2-legged types) there are other breeds within the LGD (livestock guardian dog) category which are more naturally inclined to guard and protect in that manner. A few off the top of my head: Caucasian Ovcharka, Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Mareema, Tibetan Mastiff, Akbash. These types of dogs generally operate off of a "defensive" drive rather than a prey drive when they "guard" property or family.

Edit: Training and socializing is still highly recommended for these breeds as well. But due to their historical employment as livestock guardians, the "guarding" instinct is very easy to bring out of them.


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