# What should I allow? (pack structure)



## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

My question is, now that i have my new puppy, Ryker, How do i let him and my 1.5 yr old female Sage interact? Sage is not a dominant dog, she is very submissive, Ryker even though he is only 8.5 weeks is very strong willed, especially with Sage and he will retaliate if he doesn't like something.. they get along great and seem to play with no problems. but is there something i need to do as far as helping them figure out the pack structure between themselves, and between ryker and I? Or do i just let it play its course? Ryker does not seem to be willing to submit to either myself or Sage. Is this a problem? Or is he just far too young for any of that yet?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I wouldnt let then interact at all till the puppy is older.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I wouldnt let then interact at all till the puppy is older.


What he said. Don't force the older dog to have to control the puppy that's your job, If you jack this up expect trouble in 18 to 24 months.



Leerburg | The Ground Work to becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Let Sage and Ryker interact, it will build a bond and establish a good relationship between each other, no matter who will be the more dominant as they both mature. However, do not let Ryker overstep the mark with you. You must take control of him.

Harry and Lola sound very similar to your 2, Harry was and still is a very dominant dog, Lola is submissive and really easy going. I always allowed them interaction, they are never without each other and this helped build their relationship. 

Yes they have had and still have 'words' with each other every so often and Lola has only seriously disciplined him a couple of times - when he went near her food bowl and annoyed her too much, and he was better for it.

Now, Harry is 3 and Lola is 5 and Harry is the dominant one between them, sometimes the older one will not be the dominant one because even though they are older and therefore suppose to enjoy right of passage - if they are not naturally dominant and the younger one it, then they will fall into their roles very easily, far better than a dominant younger and older one.

So, if they get on and enjoy each other, let them play and find their roles in the pack together, they are going to be together for the next ten plus years.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Could easily end up with a dead puppy when you aren't looking or maybe even if you are. I have seen it happen. Don't force it as wait till the puppy is older.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I let my puppy interact with my adults from the get go. I was always present, always controlled the situation. Never had an issue. 

All of my dogs also get alone time with me. 

Use your common sense. If your adult us being pestered, and the puppy is not listening to her signals, step in and remove the puppy. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Do what you want just know even if you are there to supervise a puppy that age has a soft skull and a dog that is around a year old can easily crush it in a half a second. Not saying this will happen, but i have seen it with a dog that wasn't even dog aggressive. Not worth risking imo.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Could easily end up with a dead puppy when you aren't looking or maybe even if you are. I have seen it happen. Don't force it as wait till the puppy is older.


And you could end up with a dead adult if not looking! I agree, puppies need to be protected, however they also need to learn and if you have a bitch that is submissive and won't get grumpy at a little one, then by all means allow them together. 

Sage is a naturally submissive girl, Ryker even at 8 weeks is showing natural dominance - exactly the same as Lola and Harry. 

As long as you are careful, absolutely allow them interaction as it really does help with building their relationship together and define their roles in the pack. 

I wouldn't allow Ryker and Sage to eat together at this stage, in the same room but not right next to each other. I used to put Harry in a crate with his food bowl and Lola's food bowl next to the crate so that they got used to each other whilst eating. This worked very well (_except for one time, when I forgot to close the crate and a very young Harry strolled out and went to eat Lola's food while she was eating - she was not happy_) and by doing this, they both learned to respect each others food bowl. Now they eat right next to each other, wait until each has finished then swap positions so they can lick each others bowl. 

They have respect for each other, have clearly defined roles and as a result are very close.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Natural dominance at 8 weeks? More like puppy being a puppy. Its imo best to wait till the pup is closer to 15 weeks or older before supervised introductions.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Puppies at 8 weeks can and do show natural dominance and submissive tendencies, watch a litter for a while and there will always be more dominant and more submissive ones. If a dog is naturally dominant or submissive, this will be evident from very very young, they don't learn to be this way, they either are or are not.

When I think back to Lola and Harry in their litters, Lola was probably one of the more submissives and Harry was the most dominant one by far. They still carry these roles today.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Welp thats great it worked out in your case but frankly you got lucky. Ive heard and seen cases where this was not the case. Young adult dog was lounging around dog was great with other dogs large and small. Puppy came over to meet the older dog and older dog lunged grabbed it by the head and gave one shake. No warnings given. Puppy died on the spot.

You hear stories like that all the time. It isn't super uncommon.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes that can happen and Coulter will have to judge the situation carefully.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I wouldnt let then interact at all till the puppy is older.


Wow I've honestly never heard that advice from anyone before. I couldn't imagine not letting them be together as it's my goal to make sure they have as great a relationship with each other as to me. 



Baillif said:


> Could easily end up with a dead puppy when you aren't looking or maybe even if you are. I have seen it happen. Don't force it as wait till the puppy is older.


I understand that you must be careful. Especially with a snappy dog, but Sage is very much the opposite. She interacts with him just as much as he does. She will start the playing /wrestling as well. So it is definitely not forced at all. Sage has never tried to get away from the situation. 




Baillif said:


> Do what you want just know even if you are there to supervise a puppy that age has a soft skull and a dog that is around a year old can easily crush it in a half a second. Not saying this will happen, but i have seen it with a dog that wasn't even dog aggressive. Not worth risking imo.


Well that's the reason I posted was to get people's opinion to help me figure out what is best. So your saying keep both of my dogs completely seperated till he's how old?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Harry and Lola said:


> Let Sage and Ryker interact, it will build a bond and establish a good relationship between each other, no matter who will be the more dominant as they both mature. However, do not let Ryker overstep the mark with you. You must take control of him.
> 
> Harry and Lola sound very similar to your 2, Harry was and still is a very dominant dog, Lola is submissive and really easy going. I always allowed them interaction, they are never without each other and this helped build their relationship.
> 
> ...



How can I tell if Ryker is overstepping it with me?

They do get along great already Sage has only done some minor corrections bit I feel like ryker understood immediately.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> What he said. Don't force the older dog to have to control the puppy that's your job, If you jack this up expect trouble in 18 to 24 months.
> 
> 
> 
> Leerburg | The Ground Work to becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader


I definitely control the situation all the time, and Sage definitely is not forced into any of it. She tries to play with him more sometimes because he is already tired out from there playing but Sage could keep going.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Im saying delay it for a few weeks till your little guy is closer to 16 weeks. They can hang out with a barrier between them before that. Id give it a little time though. Definitely whatever you do dont leave them alone together.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Welp thats great it worked out in your case but frankly you got lucky. Ive heard and seen cases where this was not the case. Young adult dog was lounging around dog was great with other dogs large and small. Puppy came over to meet the older dog and older dog lunged grabbed it by the head and gave one shake. No warnings given. Puppy died on the spot.
> 
> You hear stories like that all the time. It isn't super uncommon.


Hmm. I'd love for some more seasoned veterans to chime in on this thread to see what they think/ agree with. Naturally I just want what's best for both dogs.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Im saying delay it for a few weeks till your little guy is closer to 16 weeks. They can hang out with a barrier between them before that. Id give it a little time though. Definitely whatever you do dont leave them alone together.


No I don't leave them alone together. My wife and I are either in the room playing with them or we make the pup follow us around the house.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

coulter said:


> figure out the pack structure between themselves, and between ryker and I? Or do i just let it play its course?


That is a receipt for disaster! You have two unbalanced dogs both at extremes. If your going to "let them work it out..."what are you "there for?"

Mostl likely Baillif, gave his advised based on that? He can speak for himself, maybe no puppy and Adults play together straight up and that's his policy?

I'm just JQP so I got not problem in pointing out the obvious!

Leerburg site has a story about an Adult GSD snapping the head of a Beale pup, so yeah it happens!

I had a BullMastiff/Pitt Dominate Male he never met an adult dog that he did not want to push around. But...he loved puppies, I brought puppies in the house and he helped raised them, no problems ever but he was a confident dog! So yeah it can be done without issues.

But... you have to base the puppy/adult relationship on your dogs! If you have a submissive dog, that's a dog that is not sure you are there to protect her? That would be a dog under stress and now you bring in a holy terror to torment her..good luck with that!

Lecture and amateur dog physiology lecture over!  

First step in fixing an issue is stopping and thinking and looking for help! You've done that, so congratulations.

You really have two dogs that you need to work with not one (my opinion) first step keep everybody safe, if the Adult dog doesn't chose to interact with the puppy, keep the puppy away.

If your up for the challenge ask questions, if your not, find a certified qualified behaviourist in your area and ask for help. Both are legitimate solutions!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

It is your Sage who is dominant. Dominant dog doesn't fight and often displays submissiveness, those who have power over others don't have to fight, but they are very determined to get what they want, they are demanding. Look what she really likes to be the first at and what she subsequently dictates, it could be food she's jealous to receive from your hands, or place to sleep, or other preferences, and not necessarily all of them at once. If Ryker behaves as pushy and abusive - he is just a status seeking individual, and not necessarily he will get it. If I were you, I'd leave your dogs alone to sort it out between themselves, and focus on your relationship with a young male. It could be tricky taking him out for a walk and training him separately from your other dog, so not to cause jealosy and imparting frustration on her. By playing with your dog and training him at the same time you yourself determine his status as an inferiour, because only the leader could be a teacher whom the other dog just copies. You can start with training him fetching, dropping at your feet and giving into your palm a ball by command. Do it in the open area in the park off leash. This simple game doesn't only help your puppy physical development, but it helps establishing proper relationship with your dog. Many trainers use a ball as a major tool in training. The ball represents a prey object for the dog (flying ball is a bird, bouncing ball is hopping mouse). The leader of the pack is fed by others, he gets first to the food, by bringing this rubber "prey" back to you your dog unconsciously agrees with your leadership. When your puppy starts playing and giving well, take your older dog on the playing ground. There are quite a few techniques how to play ball with two dogs. Either you play one ball with one dog sitting and waiting for his turn, or with two balls, you can read about it on the net, or ask here, in this Forum. *By creating an environment and managing physical competition you would cease competition for higher status in your pack*. Another thing - handfeed them both in one room, giving the priority to your Sage by asking Ryker to wait for longer. Both dogs must be sitting in front of you, you might need to tether them at the beginning of training. That is to train Rycker patience.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Its partly what chip was saying. Id not let dogs just work it out. That happens everyday in dog parks and is partly why so many people and their dogs had bad experiences there. 

Part of it is the pup is a baby and you have to protect it till it is a bit older. They are super fragile at that age.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Its partly what chip was saying. Id not let dogs just work it out. That happens everyday in dog parks and is partly why so many people and their dogs had bad experiences there.
> 
> Part of it is the pup is a baby and you have to protect it till it is a bit older. They are super fragile at that age.


Sadly my Gunther is gone.  With Rocky my GSD, I will exercise much, much more caution!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've had gsd's my entire life, I don't claim to be an expert but I'll tell you from my experiences, and I've had up to 4 at one time.

When I bring in a puppy, I never keep the adult dog(s) away from that puppy. Introductions, and supervision. A puppy is NEVER left alone with the adult dog(s), and honestly, I've never had an issue. 

Puppies can be a pain in the butt to older dogs, with mine, I've always found my older ones to be good teachers and fair correctors when the situation was warranted. 

If I felt the puppy was being unfair, and a REAL pain in the butt, and wasn't being corrected, I step in and stop the fun. 

I've never had issues with , as I said having 4 adult gsd's living together , when they were old enough to be trusted, all my dogs are loose in the house when I'm not here, have never come home to a blood bath..

Certainly not saying the above scenerio works for everyone, just my experience.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have several dogs and puppies are introduced when they come home. I never introduced all at one time. It's one dog at a time with puppy either in crate or in a dog run., somewhere that I can watch interactions and the puppy is safe. It can be a long or short process depending on all the dogs. Brennan the golden puppy took about a half hour and we have never looked back. You know your dog, your dog does not seem to have an issue. The puppy will learn from her, she will let him get away with some stuff, and will correct the puppy if needed more when the puppy is older and should know better. They have the potential to become play mates and best friends, that won't happen if you keep them separated. If your dog was growling , snarling, and showing signs of no tolerance I would say that a puppy wouldn't even work. And do crate the puppy if it is getting out of hand and making your dog uncomfortable.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Do you take your puppy somewhere to play with other puppies? He needs it as a part of socialization. Even, by the way you described, the situation is quite safe, it is not fair to your other dog to receive this sort of bursting energy heat 24 hours a day.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> Do you take your puppy somewhere to play with other puppies? He needs it as a part of socialization. Even, by the way you described, the situation is quite safe, it is not fair to your other dog to receive this sort of bursting energy heat 24 hours a day.


The older dog is 1.5, hardly a senior or even close to being middle aged. At 1.5 she is probably still puppy like herself.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I let my puppy interact with my adults from the get go. I was always present, always controlled the situation. Never had an issue.
> 
> All of my dogs also get alone time with me.
> 
> ...


Absolutely this! Puppy always is part of the pack and must learn from the adults. Pup is crated when I'm not home to supervise but must learn to interact with adults when we are around. If puppy is pestering a senior dog then step in, but usually puppy gets the hint quickly. At least as long as they all have good doggie skills and manners.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

1 and 5 are sexually mature, though their brains are of a puppy. They play differently, rough play with harder bites, and females are not gentler than males. Seems, the female, or she didn't have opportunity to learn these techniques, or her hormones tell her to behave in a motherly way, in many young females it happens, that is exactly the age when the signs of a future false pregnancy could be detected as well. If there was any risk, it should have gone by now, othewise, the youngster would have been badly bitten already. In order to satisfy the younger puppy needs he has to be taken to his equals daily, not just spending his energy at home. It wouldn't be easy for the OP to exercise them both in a sense of socialization with other dogs (two different classes for age groups, puppy parks do not allow adult dogs, etc). If Op would leave them only to each other, they would happily create male-and-female pack and finally start to attack other dogs. Dogs' play is instinctive tendency to exercise hunting and fighting skills, that is what they two are busy with. If the OP doesn't gain control as a leader now, it would be only more difficult later.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Its partly what chip was saying. Id not let dogs just work it out. That happens everyday in dog parks and is partly why so many people and their dogs had bad experiences there.
> 
> Part of it is the pup is a baby and you have to protect it till it is a bit older. They are super fragile at that age.


Maybe me saying "let them work it out" was not the right phrase. what i meant was as far as them figuring out who is higher ranking/pack structure, like do i need to do certain things to help make Ryker realise that Sage is "above him"?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I've had gsd's my entire life, I don't claim to be an expert but I'll tell you from my experiences, and I've had up to 4 at one time.
> 
> When I bring in a puppy, I never keep the adult dog(s) away from that puppy. Introductions, and supervision. A puppy is NEVER left alone with the adult dog(s), and honestly, I've never had an issue.
> 
> ...


exactly, and i can tell that having the influence of Sage around him he is learning things at a much quicker rate than i feel like he would by himself. So sage has been a good teacher, and on only a few occasions has she had to lightly correct him, but i was right there and let it happen because i felt it was appropriate..but even with how well they play together, if i leave the room, for even a minute... the pup comes with me..


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Do you take your puppy somewhere to play with other puppies? He needs it as a part of socialization. Even, by the way you described, the situation is quite safe, it is not fair to your other dog to receive this sort of bursting energy heat 24 hours a day.


no, i have not let him meet any other dogs yet, he has only had his first set of shots and i don't want to risk him getting sick... wouldn't you agree?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> The older dog is 1.5, hardly a senior or even close to being middle aged. At 1.5 she is probably still puppy like herself.


right, Sage is very mature, but she definitely still plays like a puppy, she usually is the one that ends up annoying other dogs cause she wants to play all of the time.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> 1 and 5 are sexually mature, though their brains are of a puppy. They play differently, rough play with harder bites, and females are not gentler than males. Seems, the female, or she didn't have opportunity to learn these techniques, or her hormones tell her to behave in a motherly way, in many young females it happens, that is exactly the age when the signs of a future false pregnancy could be detected as well. If there was any risk, it should have gone by now, othewise, the youngster would have been badly bitten already. In order to satisfy the younger puppy needs he has to be taken to his equals daily, not just spending his energy at home. It wouldn't be easy for the OP to exercise them both in a sense of socialization with other dogs (two different classes for age groups, puppy parks do not allow adult dogs, etc). If Op would leave them only to each other, they would happily create male-and-female pack and finally start to attack other dogs. Dogs' play is instinctive tendency to exercise hunting and fighting skills, that is what they two are busy with. If the OP doesn't gain control as a leader now, it would be only more difficult later.


and how do i gain that control? have i lost that control? Sage undoubtedly knows i'm the leader, she will drop whatever she's doing or chasing to come back to me and listen to my commands. i'm very proud of her for that. She has gone to work with me every day since i got her at 9 weeks. so she was wel socalized from day one, whether it was other dogs or just experiencing people and the world in general.

Ryker will also be able to come to work with me, he has so far in the few days i got him, i just have to keep him crated most of the time to limit his interactions with other dogs and people, until he gets the rest of his shots.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> and how do i gain that control?


I have described it in my first post here. You train your younger puppy separately some basics, and start exercising both of them with a ball, or two balls. Training two dogs at once is a different story, don't expect Ryker to pick everything from Sage, it is just easier to train both dogs by starting with a ball play.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

coulter said:


> no, i have not let him meet any other dogs yet, he has only had his first set of shots and i don't want to risk him getting sick... wouldn't you agree?


Two or three weeks after last shot you're good to go!
And:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> I have described it in my first post here. You train your younger puppy separately some basics, and start exercising both of them with a ball, or two balls. Training two dogs at once is a different story, don't expect Ryker to pick everything from Sage, it is just easier to train both dogs by starting with a ball play.


Only problem I found with that approach, is the puppy can key off the adult dog!

My dogs are car proofed, they don't step out the car till I release them, even if all the doors are open.

I discovered safely by accident that my Boxer who I always took in the car with Gunther. Was not in fact car proofed! I took her somewhere once without Gunther and when I opened the door for her she immediately hopped out???? 

That's when I realized that she was not in fact listening to me..she was keying off the adult dog!

Not saying that is always the case but that was my experience.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I am so confused by some of the advice being given in this thread. Some advocating socialization and then some advocating isolation from other dogs.

In my house, the puppies are put right in with older dogs. Its how they establish their order in the group and how they learn social skills. They are never left unsupervised. I allow them to correct each other to an extent, but don't let the bigger dogs beat the crap out of a puppy. If the puppy is too much for the older dog, the older dog will let the puppy know without mauling them. If they don't give them signs to knock it off, then the puppy can be separated for a bit of a break, or redirected onto another activity.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

^^ This!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I am so confused by some of the advice being given in this thread. Some advocating socialization and then some advocating isolation from other dogs.
> 
> In my house, the puppies are put right in with older dogs. Its how they establish their order in the group and how they learn social skills. They are never left unsupervised. I allow them to correct each other to an extent, but don't let the bigger dogs beat the crap out of a puppy. If the puppy is too much for the older dog, the older dog will let the puppy know without mauling them. If they don't give them signs to knock it off, then the puppy can be separated for a bit of a break, or redirected onto another activity.


Yes I too was very confused by some of the earlier posts. But it seemed that most people would agree to put the pup right in with the adult which is what I've done. They have done great so far. But I'm always watching!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the replies!! Keep them coming I'm trying to learn as much as possible.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

He doesn't need to meet other dogs. The exposure of other dogs is what your looking for. Obedience class, walking through the park,etc. by all means if you know someone with a stable dog, that is different then strange dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

In fact Midnite still tries eating the puppy. He isn't hurting him, but that is how they play.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

coulter said:


> Yes I too was very confused by some of the earlier posts. But it seemed that most people would agree to put the pup right in with the adult which is what I've done. They have done great so far. But I'm always watching!


Just a theory but I think the difference in posts are those of us who have large packs and know our pack well say put the pup right in. Because we know how our dogs react with other dogs.... vrs those with maybe a smaller pack who might not know how their dogs will react. I find that the problems with a new pup more often happen when that pup turns teenager and loses his puppy licence. That is when you really have to be diligent.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

llombardo said:


> In fact Midnite still tries eating the puppy. He isn't hurting him, but that is how they play.


hahahha awesome picture. thats how my gsd plays too. i've recently been fostering this chihuahua pup and if i let them play long enough, the chihuahua is covered in saliva.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

For clarification I don't advocate isolation from other dogs. Exposure is fine meeting not so much. Puppies can interact directly with other puppies of roughly the same size with a referee, but delay interaction with older dogs till the puppies are closer to teething age.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think it totally depends on how roughly Sage plays with Ryker, and how much of pain in the butt Ryker is with Sage. I let my puppy have free access to DH's AmBull when he was 8 weeks old, but I'd redirect him when he started treating her like a toy. On the other hand, I didn't let that same pup off his leash when he was around my neighbor's 8 week old puppy, when he was around a year old. They played, but I did control how much. I waited until that puppy was 16 weeks old before they played off leash. My pup was just too rough to play with such a baby puppy. Good luck, your home sounds like a fun place to be!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I think it totally depends on how roughly Sage plays with Ryker, and how much of pain in the butt Ryker is with Sage. I let my puppy have free access to DH's AmBull when he was 8 weeks old, but I'd redirect him when he started treating her like a toy. On the other hand, I didn't let that same pup off his leash when he was around my neighbor's 8 week old puppy, when he was around a year old. They played, but I did control how much. I waited until that puppy was 16 weeks old before they played off leash. My pup was just too rough to play with such a baby puppy. Good luck, your home sounds like a fun place to be!


Sage in my opinion plays very well with him, she looks and acts big but she is very gentle with him with her mouth. 
I am going to try and post a video of them playing together, do any of you know the easiest way to post a video on here?
That way you guys can watch and see what your opinion is.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Bump


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

Let them figure it out. I have 5 dogs bringing my pup home was hard on my Great Dane. Now they get along great. They all get along. Just watch the first few weeks you can tell if something isn't right. Rough play sounds worst than a dog fight. It's 24/7 supervision I won't stress that enough. I was like a hawk for a month straight worried about my Dane. Esp when he was lying on floor and puppy running around. Now they play he jumps on my Dane and all is good. 


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