# Have you run into any dogs from . . . ?



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

From Carpatcan during protection training? If so, what was your take on them?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You mean dogs from their kennel or the breed of dog they own/work?

No, if the first question. Yes, for the second.


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

lhczth said:


> You mean dogs from their kennel or the breed of dog they own/work?
> 
> No, if the first question. Yes, for the second.


Both is helpful to me. What was your take on the presas you encounter?


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Your best bet is to try a molassor or bully forum.


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Your best bet is to try a molassor or bully forum.


People who have Molosser breeds and compete them are going to have a bias opinion. GSD owners may also have a bias opinion on the opposite side but it's something I'd like to hear since GSDs are more established in protection sports.

I'm trying to get all the info from different perspectives before choosing a dog. 

To clarify, I'm asking similar questions on a few different forums.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I haven't, personally. The only breeds I've seen at IPO clubs are GSDs and malinois exclusively. I think there must be a reason for that. But that is IPO, only, I see more videos of presas or similar competing in PSA, for example.


----------



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Dont think I've seen any Presa's in protection but have seen a few Boxers, Dogos, and American Bulldogs. While they are pretty intense in protection it appears as though all the breeds with short muzzles have difficulty with endurance and speed in comparison to the more popular sport dog breeds. Just can't breathe as well with those short muzzles. This is in IPO so I can't speak for other protection sports. 
As Muskeg said there must be a reason why you see mostly GSDs and Malinois in IPO. Aside from the physical differences the usual IPO breeds are known to be more clear headed and discerning in drive


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

astrovan2487 said:


> Dont think I've seen any Presa's in protection but have seen a few Boxers, Dogos, and American Bulldogs. While they are pretty intense in protection it appears as though all the breeds with short muzzles have difficulty with endurance and speed in comparison to the more popular sport dog breeds. Just can't breathe as well with those short muzzles. This is in IPO so I can't speak for other protection sports.
> As Muskeg said there must be a reason why you see mostly GSDs and Malinois in IPO. Aside from the physical differences the usual IPO breeds are known to be more clear headed and discerning in drive


The FCI states that Presas are brachycephalic, but I haven't seen one with a muzzle nearly as short as a boxer, in person or online. Obviously not as long as a GSD or mal's muzzle, though. I get what you're saying though, I'm just wondering if it applies to Presas.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The ones I saw varied from unapproachable defensive dogs to aloof, but OK around people. Not much drive for obedience. Very Very defensive in bitework. A person would need a very good helper to work one in IPO. I never saw them track. 

I was lucky to train with a helper that worked a lot of different breeds so got to see quite a variety. 

American bulldogs, on the other hand, were well represented in our area with a number of them making SchH/IPO2 or 3. The more bully types had a hard time with endurance especially in tracking, but, though very single minded at times (to the point of being total butt heads) were pretty good in obedience and protection.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

astrovan2487 said:


> it appears as though all the breeds with short muzzles have difficulty with endurance and speed in comparison to the more popular sport dog breeds. Just can't breathe as well with those short muzzles.


LOL ... the short muzzled doggies can't take the heat ... thing. 

I know two dogs that have proven that is not necessarily the case ... with American Line Boxers, anyway! Slightly narrow and longer muzzles. One was in Louisiana a Hog Hunter??? And the other was well my "Struddell." She chased Jack rabbits in the 90 degree summers all day long ... I never gave it a second thought. 

But ... I'm not out there. And on "Boxerforum" we have I suspect from here a new member from here, as he knows lots of members here?? And he is also apparently a "Boxer" guy. And I asked him specifically about an "American Line Boxer" and he said finding the dog with the right drives is like looking for a needle in a haystack. 

I of course ... beg to differ but you know ... I'm not out there! But ... back on pointe. I don't think the "OP" is asking what "Breed" is better ... but asking those, that are out there, if they have seen "Molossers" on the field and there observations of them ... seems pretty reasonable to me?? 

I'm interested in "Molossers" as a group also ... I only chimed on behalf of the short muzzled crowd. Just to note there could be acceptation ... but I'm not out there.


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... the short muzzled doggies can't take the heat ... thing.
> 
> I know two dogs that have proven that is not necessarily the case ... with American Line Boxers, anyway! Slightly narrow and longer muzzles. One was in Louisiana a Hog Hunter??? And the other was well my "Struddell." She chased Jack rabbits in the 90 degree summers all day long ... I never gave it a second thought.
> 
> ...


My family's boxer will lay in any available liquid when it's hot outside, if you have a hose running she will happily stand under it for some relief  she is a dark brindle too which I am sure doesn't help. Bet her snout is definitely on the more pushed in side. I watched her spend about 5 minutes trying to carry away a bone, she would get it in her mouth and start running and it would fall out, over and over and over  I'm sure there are longer muzzled Boxers than her out there who are much healthier and would be more effective in sport.


----------



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Not saying the short muzzled dogs are incapable of being great IPO dogs, there are some out there. Not saying which dog is better than which, just relaying the observations I've made and statements I've heard professional dog trainers make, some of them being handlers of Molosser type dogs. My observation is that Molosser dogs have a harder time running blinds and struggle with prolonged barking. Tracking is also more difficult. The ones I have seen hit very hard and are powerful, mostly defense in protection 
Many of the larger trials have listed what handler/dog teams have signed up ahead of time, you could see if there are Molosser type dogs competing and see for yourself.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lhczth said:


> The ones I saw varied from unapproachable defensive dogs to aloof, but OK around people. *Not much drive for obedience. * Very Very defensive in bitework. A person would need a very good helper to work one in IPO. I never saw them track.
> 
> I was lucky to train with a helper that worked a lot of different breeds so got to see quite a variety.
> 
> American bulldogs, on the other hand, were well represented in our area with a number of them making SchH/IPO2 or 3. The more bully types had a hard time with endurance especially in tracking, but, though very single minded at times (to the point of being total butt heads) were pretty good in obedience and protection.


I did my BH and a Presa and handler were on the field with us, and it was the longest long down I ever want to do...the dog was super slow in heeling, positions were optional and the dog was not into it at all. When it was time for their long down, the dog decided it was time to roll on her back, kick her feet up and she showed more excitement just lying around than she did when upright! It was pretty funny for the crowd, not so much for me doing my first ever BH
The handler had another Presa and he showed much differently...up in drive and did the routine very nice. I have followed this owner and her dogs for many years. She is dedicated to the breed.


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> I did my BH and a Presa and handler were on the field with us, and it was the longest long down I ever want to do...the dog was super slow in heeling, positions were optional and the dog was not into it at all. When it was time for their long down, the dog decided it was time to roll on her back, kick her feet up and she showed more excitement just lying around than she did when upright! It was pretty funny for the crowd, not so much for me doing my first ever BH
> The handler had another Presa and he showed much differently...up in drive and did the routine very nice. I have followed this owner and her dogs for many years. She is dedicated to the breed.


I'm sure bloodlines and being diligent in researching the breeder is essential to the quality of working dog you will end up with. It is one of those breeds that is not *well* established with a kennel club. Likely the best working Presas aren't registered and aren't even 'purebred' (using the term lightly). Maybe in 30-40 years we will see some more focused working Presas. Not that they aren't an old breed but they are new to organized work and sports, with their increasing popularity perhaps they will become better sport dogs.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There is a Corso entered in the AWDF championships this weekend in Bowling Green, KY. 
Competitors List IPO3


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> I'm sure there are longer muzzled Boxers than her out there who are much healthier and would be more effective in sport.


Naw ... not trying to over represent American Line Boxers. 

Longer narrow muzzle ... apparently allows them to breath better and tolerate heat better than there Euro counters?? There certainly ... not healthier. 

And by and large ... no one has time to deal with an American Line Boxer in Sport dog world??? The Pros say ... hard to find a dog with the right drives and I say "American Line Boxers" are to goofy. 

But looking at the Competitors List for IPO3 ... it's pretty clear that "Molossers" as a Breed are odd dogs out??? Sigh ... everybody wants to be a "Winner" ... to bad I'm so lazy.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The Corso's protection at the AWDF championships. Please don't pick apart the performance. That isn't fair to the owner/handler. I am just posting for information purposes. I have trialed with the back half helper before. He puts a lot of pressure on the dogs.


----------

