# Dog Aggression/Shepherd Mix -Please Help! Very Urgent!



## Martini1217 (May 9, 2014)

Hello! Let me start off by saying that I am NOT very knowledgeable of training techniques and I'm obviously failing my dog in some way because of how she is reacting. Any HELP would be greatly appreciated. 

I adopted Lucille when she was one year old from a high kill shelter in Kansas. When I volunteered to run the dogs at the shelter, she never showed aggression. After I adopted her, she totally changed. 

Lucille's aggression started presenting itself after I adopted her. She would lunge at bicycles, trucks, cars, semis, etc. She spins circles, snarls, barks, and lunges. I used to run her all of the time and this would never change. Unfortunately, her aggression issues have been worsening. We have worked with two separate trainers who were focused on her behavior. Both were fearful that she would not ever be able to be near other dogs.

Her aggression then progressed on to lunging towards runners. I can hardly control her when there are other dogs in the vicinity. This evening she nearly attacked a couple and their dog while they were out walking. 

I work with her 5-7 times a day in about 10 minute increments when we go outside so that she can go to the bathroom. The trainers suggested trying to get her used to situations in which she was near distractions and utilize high value treats. They suggested that we go to a parking lot, such as wal-mart, walk to the edge of the parking lot, farthest away and give her high value treats for ignoring the commotion. If she did well in that area, they suggested we move a bit closer the next day. We have done this for quite some time and we have never gotten anywhere near the door. In fact, we never progressed towards the door at all. The trainer, here in Florida, wasn't even able to get within 6 feet of her at our sessions before she started this behavior. 

She sits before meals. She walks on a 6' lead with a choke collar. Generally she stays right next to my right side. 

She is 3 years old now and the place that we are being sent has a zero tolerance policy on aggressive behavior. Our move is set for mid-June. I realize that this isn't enough time to correct her issues, but why are they worsening? Why isn't the training working. I need help so that I can help HER. Thank you in advance.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Where are you located?


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## Martini1217 (May 9, 2014)

Eglin AFB, FL. We are being relocated to Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington next month, though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I can only suggest losing the choke chain, it isn't working. Have a trainer fit a prong collar on your girl. And get a basket muzzle. 

The first step is management. You have to protect everyone else so that your dog remains safe. So 100% on lead, basket muzzle and prong collar to keep your dog from dragging you into what she is fearing or aggressing towards. 

In my opinion, training is a big part of the picture, but management is first. Leadership is also a big component, and exercise. The treats and desensitizing your dog to what it fears or aggresses toward is important, but first the dog has to trust you. It has to accept and understand you. 

Just because a dog is ok with us, does not mean they believe we will protect them. And it doesn't mean that they understand our communication. A good place to start is NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free -- lots of stuff on the net about it. When you enforce proper leadership, your dog should become more comfortable with you in all situations. 

Management before you take your dog out again. Leadership is a process that you must learn with your dog. It will take some time to read through everything and implement with everyone in your household. While you are working on the improved leadership, continue to train the dog. Stay away from distractions for now. Try to build a bond through training. Lots of praise and treats should help, but clear negative markers are also important. Your dog needs to understand that there are consequences for correct and incorrect behavior. 

Of course you will want to exercise your dog several times a day. And if possible in a fenced yard, where you can let your dog run and chase a ball, and work on basic training routines with and without leads. Exercise body and mind, a tired dog is a good dog.

Lastly, the careful socialization and desensitizing the dog, once you see a marked change in your dog due to the change in leadership style and you have marked improvement in training without distractions, then slowly, a little is a lot, start adding in a session with the distractions. Try to start far away at first, and try to stay below her threshold. Over time, weeks, maybe months, start getting closer to the problems, and learn your dog's body language, at minor stress adjust your pattern of walking to put a little more distance between you and what stresses her. 

Eventually, she needs to learn to deal with stress, but that will be easier if she has a confident leader that she understands, and has a training bond with.

Management -- prong, muzzle, 100% on leash or in fenced yard with you
Leadership -- NILIF
Training -- build a bond with positive praise/treats, and clear negative corrections -- EH! 
Exercise -- body and mind 
Careful Socialization/Desensitizing -- take your time, she didn't get like this overnight, and she won't stop overnight.


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## Martini1217 (May 9, 2014)

Thank you, Selzer. I will work on implementing these suggestions. We had a large fenced yard until about a week ago but will have a fenced yard again at our next location. Someone had also suggested that I used a lead that wraps over her nose. I know that when I had her muzzled for vet appointments people assumed she was dangerous. 

How should I handle this? She is not a mean dog. She is truly very sweet. I hate that people see her that way. Are there more benefits to the basket muzzle or is it simply safer? Also, is a 6' lead long enough during our trust building exercises?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Martini1217 said:


> Thank you, Selzer. I will work on implementing these suggestions. We had a large fenced yard until about a week ago but will have a fenced yard again at our next location. Someone had also suggested that I used a lead that wraps over her nose. I know that when I had her muzzled for vet appointments people assumed she was dangerous.
> 
> How should I handle this? She is not a mean dog. She is truly very sweet. I hate that people see her that way. Are there more benefits to the basket muzzle or is it simply safer? Also, is a 6' lead long enough during our trust building exercises?


Selzer had some awesome advice. 

What that person was talking about on your post in FB, was a head collar or gentle leader. It is a collar that wraps around the top of their nose under their chin and behind the ears. This is meant for dogs that need leash training. Ones that won't walk with YOU and pull. When they pull, it causes their head to be pulled back toward who's holding the leash. I do not believe this will be beneficial to you in any way. you say she's pretty good on lead already except for those distractions, and something tells me she would not care if something was on her face in those situations and she'd fight the pressure of the pull regardless. 

I started to tell you a little on FB about more training. I think that's where you need to concentrate for now. (along with the great suggestions from Selzer) but you mentioned she is stubborn and won't do certain things for you without treats. That's ok for now. The idea is to just get her thinking and using her mind when you guys are training. Do sessions multiple times a day and under no distraction. Get her proficient in those commands. Things like sit, stay, down, wait, release, place, etc.. teach her things for manners but also fun. Teach her to focus on you. I teach "eyes" and make him hold his focus until I release. 

I know you mentioned in our messages that she doesn't like toys. Does she like to play at all? Fetch? Tug? Flirt Pole? Ex: Titan is INSANE over a tennis ball and frisbee, so we use those in place of treats a lot of the time when training. I do a few commands then we play.. then commands, then play.. it tires him out physically and mentally at the same time. If it were me, because you don't have a fenced in yard, I would get a longer lead for her when you do training, maybe 15-20 feet. As long as you have control of the lead and you aren't training around people. This would be just to give her the feel of not being restricted. You can practice recalls and long stays this way while still holding the lead and walking away. 

Whatever you decide on, be consistent and when you feel yourself getting frustrated, stop training, end on a good note, and come back later to try again. Right now I'd truly focus on her OB. 

Also, from the little I know about muzzles.. the basket muzzle gives the dog full motion while not allowing her to bite. When I was fitting my mastiff for one when she was a puppy, she had a cloth one that completely restricted her mouth movement. She could only growl and not open her mouth at all. 

http://www.petango.com/Blogs/Dog-Muzzles-Types---Training-2 

not promoting either, or even the site for that matter because I have little experience with them, but this was a site that had both on the same page so can physically see the difference and how less restrictive the basket is for the dog. 

Also, at this point, I know you don't want your dog to be viewed as aggressive, but understand that you are keeping everyone involved safe, including yoru dog, when you muzzle her in public. Ignorant people will label her as aggressive, and knowledgable people will appreciate you for taking the right precautions with her.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Find a good bitesport trainer in your area for either IPO, Mondioring or French Ring. Have them evaluate the dog and work with them. Stay away from the positive only trainers for issues like this. This isn't the kind of thing people on the forums can really help you with. You need someone that knows exactly what they are doing.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I got my dutch shepherd from Les Flores near Centralia WA just south of where you are relocating at McChord. He runs the Cascade Shutzhund Club and is a good bitesport trainer. If he can't help, I am sure he will know someone who can. You can google him or De Las Flores kennels. He is out of the country at the DS World Championships for another week, so don't expect anything back immediately.

Good luck and yes on the prong collar and listen to Baillif above.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Checking into a new(ish) IPO club out here for you. I'll let you know what I find.


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## pineconeforestGSD (Feb 24, 2014)

once in a while,even the greatest trainers must use and ecollar.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Muzzle her, and it will solve the majority of your problems, you would stop worrying and feel relaxed, and finally let her running off leash. She is a predator ( not agressor), and *she is very eager to hunt*. You have to provide her with the object to prey on, only then you would be able to train her to ignore people with dogs, cars and other objects. To become a Schutzhund club member would be my first choice, because she would exhaust herself there not only physically, but emotionally as well. Exercise - first, and practice obedience - second.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> the greatest trainers


E-collar damages the dog's brain. Trainers don't use them.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

A tired dog is a good dog! Don't work against yourself, tire your dog before tackling more difficult situations! This could include fetch, running, hiking, trick training, etc.

Please ditch the choke collar, there are much better tools out there. I would use the regular flat collar on one leash and the other leash on a Haiti (unless you have a leash with clips on both sides) or a front clip harness (I like the lupine one) and a muzzle if that would help you feel safer.

There is no reason that using positive methods can't help you through this. LAT training is very useful. Just take your time and slowly introduce those situations that cause her to be more reactive.

Patricia McConnell has some great books that you might like to read.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> E-collar damages the dog's brain. Trainers don't use them.


Completely unsupported claim totally unsubstantiated and ridiculous...also considering the source, totally expected.

Again don't look here for help. Go find a good sport trainer. I can and do deal with cases like this. I can't do it over the internet without seeing the dog, how it's being handled and living day to day, or without seeing the dog in action. Neither can anyone else here. Nothing anyone says on here is going to be the ticket to solving the dogs issues.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

pineconeforestGSD said:


> once in a while,even the greatest trainers must use and ecollar.


That is just plain not true.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*@sabledog3*, per OPs first post they've already worked with 2 trainers using those methods and the problem is getting worse.



> We have worked with two separate trainers who were focused on her behavior. Both were fearful that she would not ever be able to be near other dogs. <snipped>The trainer, here in Florida, wasn't even able to get within 6 feet of her at our sessions before she started this behavior.


 Further the OP is on a time constraint moving to a base in June with a zero tolerance policy towards dogs with this problem.

Time to try something different else, from the sounds of it, the OP will have to get rid of a dog with behavior issues.

*@Martini1217* please take Baillif's advice. I hope you can find a trainer to help and one that understands drives and aggression can help you sort this out much faster.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Could the cause be the dog's thyroid? Have you had the dog checked by a vet? Thyroid problems can cause aggression. Dr. Jean Dodds has a test for this. You may need to send the test directly to her lab. All the info is on her website if you Google it.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

OP, Selzer and Ballif, both had good suggestions. You want a balanced approach; positive when appropriate, well-timed corrections when needed. If unable to locate a sport trainer, while hard to find there are behaviorist that take a balanced approach. Took forever to find the one I have for Woolf.

Ditch the choke collar. Haltis can break (been there done that) and especially with a lunging dog can cause neck damage, harnesses can be backed out of (been there on that as well). Locate a martingale collar to use, it can't be slipped out of. Be prepared to use a prong collar once you have a trainer and you are trained to use it. Once you are using the prong, keep and use the martingale as a back up. Leerburg has a leash specifically for this.

Condition your dog to using a basket muzzle. It will allow her to pant, drink and get treats. It will also give you a bit of peace knowing she can't bite, which in turn will allow you to relax. 

As far as your dog liking other dogs, she may never like them but she can be trained to ignore them.

The Walmart parking lots, unless it is on an early weekend morning, is probably just overwhelming to her and you won't get anywhere with her in that state.

This is all just management ideas, it is imperative to get a good set of experienced eyes on your dog. 

As far as you failing your dog, you aren't. You have obviously been trying to find the help needed for her. It isn't easy to find a good trainer that is experienced with this type of dog. Many can say they are but you find they just aren't equipped to handle the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I'm not a pro and I'm not going to argue with those that are! My advice also would be to consult a professional! 
But... I did have serious people issues with my WL GSD. I used a fabric muzzle for a while and then dropped it's use.

I did this with my guy:
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

He turned out great! First hand experience here but it depends on "you" my guys "know" "I" don't tolerate crap behaviour! 

Look it ove see what you think?


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Twyla- lupine harness can't be backed out of, look them up, they are great and don't interfere with the shoulder 
Haiti's have a safety strap and I also recommended a second leash on the flat collar 

The op already started that they know the dog won't be perfect before they move. Time crunch is not a good reason not to do the right thing for the dog, its not the dogs fault after all.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Won't be perfect?!

The dog is getting *worse* per the OP who made it clear time is of the essence. He's moving to a new base mid June and has tried two trainers that both told him the dog basically cannot be fixed. 

That right there is the standard PO trainer response to a dog they can't click the aggression away with. :crazy:

How many PO trainers should he futz around with as the problem gets worse before he has to get rid of the dog???

What the heck does it have to do with whether it's the "dogs fault"? It's not about the dog being treated meanly or unfairly as you imply. It's about getting to the bottom of the problem and fixing it.

Further how is this wasting of more time and having to get rid of the dog the "right thing" for either the OP or his dog?




sabledog3 said:


> Twyla- lupine harness can't be backed out of, look them up, they are great and don't interfere with the shoulder
> Haiti's have a safety strap and I also recommended a second leash on the flat collar
> 
> The op already started that they know the dog won't be perfect before they move. Time crunch is not a good reason not to do the right thing for the dog, its not the dogs fault after all.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

OP - this sounds like something that might be helpful to contact Tuft's about. Videos would help for them I am sure. They can do long distance consults PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

I think selzer has a nice post on managing it - also check this out Across a Threshold - Whole Dog Journal Article has some. Basically a dog needs to figuratively be put in the size box they are most comfortable in - some dogs can handle being in a big box, where they run around with people and other dogs and never have issues. Other dogs need to be boxed in behaviorally, environmentally, to be safe, and over time the walls of the box can be moved out. For right now, picture your dog in a little box next to you. I'd have her on a 4 foot lead with 2 collars and a basket muzzle and work on that relationship of trust. Suzanne Clothier (.com) has some nice articles and is big on that relationship based training. Dr. Yin has some neat stuff on her website, check out some of her free posters - I bet you see your dog reflected in some of them. 

A dog that is unable to work through desensitization protocols is not fully trusting that they will be safe. This is not always because of us! I would be looking at a place like Tuft's that is not location specific for help. And always nice to rule out that thyroid issue (Michigan state also has some nice panels), but she sounds like a pretty scared, insecure dog.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

sabledog3 said:


> Twyla- lupine harness can't be backed out of, look them up, they are great and don't interfere with the shoulder
> Haiti's have a safety strap and I also recommended a second leash on the flat collar
> 
> The op already started that they know the dog won't be perfect before they move. Time crunch is not a good reason not to do the right thing for the dog, its not the dogs fault after all.


I took a look at the harness. It would have been great to use with my Lab when she thought she was a freight train. We aren't talking about a Lab that needed to learn to walk on a leash.

Time crunch is exactly the reason to do what is right for the dog. If you read the first post by the OP, you saw that they are moving in a short time to a base with zero tolerance. If the dog isn't under control, he won't be able to have the dog. A dog like this can't be responsibly rehomed, it would require pts. Is that doing the right thing by the dog?

LAT and BAT are great tools to use with a dog like this when they are under control and understand consequences.

FWIW, when I pick up Woolf's prong, he comes racing, bright eyed and tail wagging, to perfect front to get it put on. Sounds like it has really been cruel using a prong doesn't it? This is a dog that PO trainers recommended to pts because the cookies didn't work.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I'd also look at where I was going and why I needed to take her out/where she needed to go. Am I taking her out because I want her to be a normal dog? Because right now that is not going to happen, and that's not going to happen in the next 3 months either. You COULD probably shut her down in that amount of time - dogs super compliant because you are more frightening than what is scaring/stimulating them. I prefer to avoid doing that and use some good management tools - including that muzzle. 

So that box may just be the house and yard and a car ride to a nice, leashed walk in the woods, or other things under her threshold for a while as you all adjust to another change, until she is ready to try more. Because the goals can change - things can move more or less quickly - and as long as you keep her and others safe, you are meeting the biggest goal.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You could probably get her compliant and obedient and stopping all that BS in less than 3 weeks if you found the right trainer. No need to suppress or shut a dog down. It need not be about fear. Avoidance of unpleasant consequences sure, but not fear.

If you're doing things right it doesn't take a long time.

In fact. Look up a trainer named Jason Davis in Jacksonville Florida. He runs a kennel called Karma K9. He will get you straight.


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## Martini1217 (May 9, 2014)

Sent you a PM, Baillif. 



Baillif said:


> You could probably get her compliant and obedient and stopping all that BS in less than 3 weeks if you found the right trainer. No need to suppress or shut a dog down. It need not be about fear. Avoidance of unpleasant consequences sure, but not fear.
> 
> If you're doing things right it doesn't take a long time.
> 
> In fact. Look up a trainer named Jason Davis in Jacksonville Florida. He runs a kennel called Karma K9. He will get you straight.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*LAT and BAT are great tools to use with a dog like this when they are under control and understand consequences.
*
no offense twyla 
when you say these things i am confused as to what lat and bat are
i actually have no clue what they are or what they entail
can you add links to explain or type an explanation?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> *LAT and BAT are great tools to use with a dog like this when they are under control and understand consequences.
> *
> no offense twyla
> when you say these things i am confused as to what lat and bat are
> ...


No offense taken 

BAT

LAT

BAT especially is easily modified to suit the individual dog.


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