# Hopeless in OR?



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

German shepherd puppy

It is tempting to just go see and check if they describe/interpret him correctly. He does have prey drive for sure  It's kinda stepping on thin ice; shall I or shall I not go see him? 
I have asked for his trainer and breeder but haven't heard back from the owner. Breeder seems to be in the Medford, OR area. Anyone know about one?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is his mother: kia lyne gia .


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Sounds like he has some issues, the screaming when touched? Laying down screaming when they try to train him? They contradict themselves. I don't know, Wolfy, I wonder what else is going on and how much they think they can sell him for.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deb said:


> Sounds like he has some issues, the screaming when touched? Laying down screaming when they try to train him? They contradict themselves. I don't know, Wolfy, I wonder what else is going on and how much they think they can sell him for.


They are asking $300.00 :|


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

Poor pup. 

You should definitely go check him out - might be a great find! 

I do wonder why they aren't returning him to the breeder, though...


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> They are asking $300.00 :|



Is the screaming when touched due to fear? If it is, what will it be when he matures? Sometimes a bargain isn't a bargain.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" I do wonder why they aren't returning him to the breeder, though..."
Because it has no papers. I would avoid this dog. Sorry.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Screaming is a thing with solid black WL dogs. You could train it out of him, but do you want to take that on? It could be something to do with children teasing or tormenting him and you might have good results. How much time do you want to ounin with the dog? Other than that, he is a beautiful dog, from what I can see, but killing cats would worry me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I'd be interested in seeing how he responds to me as a stranger. I am not worried about him killing cats. Plenty of good dogs do that. Deja too I am sure when she gets the chance. What about the screaming in black WLs?
I a not sure if $300 is a bargain. I think she should be happy to give him for free if someone who is willing to work with him, wants him. I doubt that I will take it on but am just curious about him and see if they are correct in their assessment.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Doesn't hurt to go look and see what you think.Might just be a very vocal pup.Maybe frustrated too,trapped in the yard all of the time with nothing to do but go after cats?If all medical care is truly up to date $300 is a bargain.It's a crap shoot as far as any health issues that crop up though.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Come on wolfy dog.! When's the last time a pup has screamed at you? If you go take video if possible. I would like to see what an out of control dog he really is. What does screaming mean. Athena is very vocal and will whine or scream when she is really excited. Like when I first get home. Or when she gets excited during training. He is a good looking dog. Could be just in a bad environment for a GSD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Good dogs don't kill cats. Don't be silly. Shepherds can't be good farm dogs or family pets if they kill the farm animals or other household/community pets. Are you able and willing to keep your neighbor's cats safe from this dog if you get him? People love their cats just as much, if not more, than you love your dogs. They are valued family members too regardless of how you may view them. 

You had problems with your current dog playing too rough with your Collie. If I remember correctly, you chalked it up to a rough play style and did not correct despite your Collie coming up lame repeatedly.

I have had this problem with my own dogs, but I do correct rough play. Regardless, I still have to be very careful letting them play so that they do not injure each other. These are big, strong dogs and accidents happen. If you aren't going to correct your current GSD from playing to rough, how do you plan on keeping this pup from harm?


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

Killing cats is nothing but prey drive. Ridiculous to think otherwise. Plenty of dogs with prey drive can live safely with cats, but they have to be trained, just like with anything else.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Owners rehoming puppies are totally unreliable for assessments!

Yes, they'll give you some accurate, factual info that you can use to assess (e.g, the pup has killed cats -- find out the circumstances), but anything related to their own interaction (screaming during training) is being filtered through the perspective of someone who can't manage a GSD puppy. Everything seems worse than it is when you're mad and frustrated with the pup, and they're usually blind to their own role in the behaviors. Totally normal puppy behavior that just spun out of control turns into something being wrong with the dog, from the vantage point of a clueless, frazzled owner. 

High prey drive with no outlet but the cat, mouthing that they never learned to redirect, having a hard mouth on human appendages, snapping at treats and toys -- I've seen that on shelter intake sheet questionnaires from former owners over and over with pups at this age and the label "aggressive" put on the pup by the former owner. I've also seen pups labeled as "fearful" (in their lonely, outdoor yard-ornament former homes) who turned out to be sociable and lovely once they became house dogs and had confident dogs as role models. 

As you know, screaming while doing a down can happen with some aversive old-school training methods -- and may just signal that the dog was protesting, or even was scared of the owner who had no bond with it. At least he's not shutting down or submissive peeing -- that would be a more typical fearful dog's reaction! 

Go see the pup. Evaluate the dog in front of you. Filter out the owner's explanation, and focus on _facts _from the owner, not clueless _opinions_ about a pup he failed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BrodyRoo said:


> Killing cats is nothing but prey drive. Ridiculous to think otherwise. Plenty of dogs with prey drive can live safely with cats, but they have to be trained, just like with anything else.


The prey drive is a sequence of behaviors and not all dogs inherit the kill bite. Field Labs have very high prey drive, but lack the kill bite. The same can be said of many German Shepherds. I have owned many that would chase small animals, but not kill. Once the running stops, the game stopped, no training involved.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

@MineAreWorkingline i think the pointy wolfydog was making was that the fact that the dog has killed cats isnt a deal breaker as it is trainable and just indicative of a relativity high prey drive.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Wolfy, what does it hurt to go look? You are not committing yourself to anything..


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I think you should take him, only because I trust you to not give up on him and teach him to overcome whatever issues he's having. I think a dog like this in the wrong hands will not end well for the dog. Probably be put down or abused.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

girardid said:


> @MineAreWorkingline i think the pointy wolfydog was making was that the fact that the dog has killed cats isnt a deal breaker as it is trainable and just indicative of a relativity high prey drive.


I know highly skilled people who ultimately had to rehome their high prey drive GSDs due to killing family cats to homes without cats and with the ability and commitment to ensure the safety of others. They tried everything and consulted with the best of the best. 

If we are going to own dogs like these with the capacity of harming or killing other household pets or those of other people in our communities, we have to be realistic about the potential and about assuming appropriate control and management or we can be looking at some of the same legal problems facing other breeds of dogs today when their owners assume a cavalier attitude about inappropriate animal aggression.

And if this is the level our breed has sunk to, maybe we need to take a good, serious look at some breeding practices. A German Shepherd should first and foremost be a good family pet and good family pets don't kill other household pets, nor should they be a menace to other pets in the community.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know highly skilled people who ultimately had to rehome their high prey drive GSDs due to killing family cats to homes without cats and with the ability and commitment to ensure the safety of others. They tried everything and consulted with the best of the best.
> 
> If we are going to own dogs like these with the capacity of harming or killing other household pets or those of other people in our communities, we have to be realistic about the potential and about assuming appropriate control and management or we can be looking at some of the same legal problems facing other breeds of dogs today when their owners assume a cavalier attitude about inappropriate animal aggression.
> 
> And if this is the level our breed has sunk to, maybe we need to take a good, serious look at some breeding practices. A German Shepherd should first and foremost be a good family pet and good family pets don't kill other household pets, nor should they be a menace to other pets in the community.


I get what you're saying, but at 7 months it's far to early to give up on a dog. This can be trained, I had a dog who would lunge at every single cat in the street. I trained it out of her. Someone like @wolfy dog with experience can do it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I get what you're saying, but at 7 months it's far to early to give up on a dog. This can be trained, I had a dog who would lunge at every single cat in the street. I trained it out of her. Someone like @wolfy dog with experience can do it.


I am not saying give up on the puppy. I am saying you can't have a cavalier attitude. A dog killing somebody else's pet, or another family pet, is a big deal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

he sounds semi-feral .

poorly socialized , if at all , hence the screaming when someone wants to touch him . This present from 11 weeks of age .

" He still screams out anytime someone walks around a corner or someone touches him and he wasnt expecting it."

Panics . 

In the picture there is no collar on him. Bet you anything that he would drop and roll , bite the lead, squeal like a stuck pig at the slightest little pressure from the collar .

Avoidance --- 

could be a life time of cat and mouse , lure and bribe , or worst case scenario could panic on lead and become handler aggressive in an attempt to get away in blind panic.

possibly dog will never bond nor trust .

this is a BIG mess


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I wouldn't trust a word the current owner says. If this dog was as wonderful as they claim and not just something that has been shoved in the backyard, rehoming fee wouldn't be mentioned.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You had problems with your current dog playing too rough with your Collie. If I remember correctly, you chalked it up to a rough play style and did not correct despite your Collie coming up lame repeatedly.


 You have taken this out of context. You don't have a clue how I managed that Collie and Deja. I never said that she was the cause. I only said that he needed a calmer life than I could give him and to prevent me having to restrain Deja for the rest of her life. This is how stories grow negative, so stop it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't know if she still has him. I would not take him because I will listen to my own advice and I agree with Carmspack. I wold still like to see him but I referred her to the rescue and I think that is what she will do. They have a good heart but are in over their heads. We do not need to be so negative about them.

Regarding prey drive: I critter trained Deja so it is no longer an issue. And when it comes to cats; people need to be responsible for their own cats' well being and not let them roam around on our property and expect us to keep them safe. These cats kill the native birds so I don't care if the coyotes take them.
I have had sight hounds. They will kill everything they can get. But they are great pets. I love Deja's intense drive and she is a sweet pet dog for me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> You have taken this out of context. You don't have a clue how I managed that Collie and Deja. I never said that she was the cause. I only said that he needed a calmer life than I could give him and to prevent me having to restrain Deja for the rest of her life. This is how stories grow negative, so stop it.


" I could have explored more treatments but decided to find him a home where he wouldn't be so physically challenged by another dog and may have the opportunity to heal."

Your words, not mine, and I never faulted you for your decision. In fact I applaud you for finding him a home that is better suited for him. If you call that negative, then you are entitled to your own misinterpretation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

People are responsible for ensuring the safety of others in their community from their dogs, be it a cat that snuck out the door or a child retrieving a ball from somebody else's yard. Don't victim blame.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> " I could have explored more treatments but decided to find him a home where he wouldn't be so physically challenged by another dog and may have the opportunity to heal."
> 
> Your words, not mine, and I never faulted you for your decision. In fact I applaud you for finding him a home that is better suited for him. If you call that negative, then you are entitled to your own misinterpretation.


With "physically challenged" I didn't mean that she hurt him. He would just run too fast with her, faster than was good for him. Hope that clears that up.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> With "physically challenged" I didn't mean that she hurt him. He would just run too fast with her, faster than was good for him. Hope that clears that up.


I understand. I have multiple dogs and the smaller ones can be the worst. They want to be the fastest, jump the highest, etc., and they get hurt despite the best of intentions.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, glad that it's cleared up.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Regarding prey drive: I critter trained Deja so it is no longer an issue. And when it comes to cats; people need to be responsible for their own cats' well being and not let them roam around on our property and expect us to keep them safe. These cats kill the native birds so I don't care if the coyotes take them.
> I have had sight hounds. They will kill everything they can get. But they are great pets. I love Deja's intense drive and she is a sweet pet dog for me.


I'd feel bad if a kid accidentally let a cat out (happens all the time) and a coyote or neighbors dog killed them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I would just say I have known a couple dogs that were semi feral like Carmspack said about this one, wuich was also my impression reading the ad. Of course the owners could be misrepresenting. But it can be a life sentence dealing with these dogs that have canine reactive attachment disorder. Are you willing/able to do that...be there for it...manage it. Or euthanize it if not because it might not be able to be placed safely in another home.

It may not be that bad. I am the type of person who can't walk away once I stick my nose in so I have to ask myself these thinga ahead of time because it may be in my best interest or my only option not to get involved. If you know what I mean

If you are able to help this poor dog, then please do. It isnt having a good life and isn't likely to unless someone special takes an interest.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> I get what you're saying, but at 7 months it's far to early to give up on a dog. This can be trained, I had a dog who would lunge at every single cat in the street. I trained it out of her. Someone like @*wolfy dog* with experience can do it.


A lunge is different than a kill. I know someone whose dogs killed a neighbor's cat that got onto their property and they are good dogs, but they were also trained dogs and have no baggage. I think it was a pack thing and it only happened once. But this is a complete unknown. Until she has hands on the dog and evaluates, and has it evaluated by someone else who doesn't have a stake in the outcome, I would say no. I think everyone should have a second or third opinion from someone with eyes and hands on the dog. We can't tell from a message board.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you are able to help this poor dog, then please do. It isnt having a good life and isn't likely to unless someone special takes an interest.


The dog will likely be put down unless someone connects with it and can help it, but it's only for a very experienced owner with this particular type of behavior. We can be good at training our own dogs and still not able to handle something this extreme. I still think the best way to get a good, intact dog is from a breeder. It's very unlikely to get one anywhere else. Breeders sometimes have dogs turned back to them that they need to rehome.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well I am under the impression that Wolfy Dog has a decent amount of experience and ability.

As for killing stuff...I don't get that worked up about it, I know plenty of people do. I had a rescue who was a serial killer, and he would kill things smaller or bigger than him with skill and ease. I did what needed to be done and he was a beloved member of our family.

I know plenty of people take dogs like that out back and shoot them, I guess I dont get that emotional about a dog acting like a predator, it iS a predator.

And I totally agree not all dogs have the "kill shot", my female GSD just doesn't. She will chase but there is absolutely nothing there as far as doing actual harm to a prey animal, and I know this for certain. It is a different kind of burden to keep a dog who can and will kill.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is not about being turned off by the dog being a predator. It is about the lackadaisical attitude toward the life of somebody else's pet when your pet is the predator. One's predator's life is not more important than the life of somebody else's pet.

But all in all, a GSD can't be a farm dog if it is killing the barn cats or other small animals. It can't be a good family pet if it is killing the cats and Chihuahua with which it shares its home. There is a breed standard, it calls to have the ability to protect and guard, not for the family to have to protect and guard from the breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, not for nothing but I put mine to good use. I impressed upon him that he should not kill MY animals but if he would kindly dispatch other predators who wanted to kill my animals that would be helpful. He hunted ***** and possums and snakes and anything else feasting on my livestock. 

I rather hated killing the rat snakes, if only they would have eaten the **** rats but no, they would sit
t in my coop and gorge themselves on eggs all day, while I spend a fortune feeding organic feed to my chickens and barely get at egg at the end of the day. Sorry guys, but, off with their heads. I found a huge pair of rat snakes in my nesting boxes one day and killed them and they were so full of eggs that yolk streamed out after I lopped them with the shovel.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I referred her to the NW rescue, she asked for their contact info, I offered to stop by but I haven't heard from her anymore after I told her that I was a trainer. Not surprising on CL.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well I am under the impression that Wolfy Dog has a decent amount of experience and ability.


I'm not questioning her experience, but until one has handled a dog with extreme behaviors you don't know if you can handle this or not. It's not typical training, the dog will require intensive behavior modification and not everyone can do that for this specific behavior. Maybe she could if she wanted to. Having had a difficult dog with nowhere near those problems, I was not prepared for what I had. It took years to learn how to handle the dog properly and then he made a good pet. 

Killing on a farm is a different thing than trying to kill their other pets. Would you want a dog that killed your pets or tried to? I wouldn't. I have one rule, and that is peaceful living within our own home. Now, if we had a rat or a mouse and one of my dogs caught it, I wouldn't be upset with them. I don't want them going after snakes. We had a poisonous snake in our yard once, I heard it before I saw it, and there is no way I want them even thinking about it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Dog is re-posted again with nicer pictures. Still haven't heard anything anymore so I have let it go. Typical CL . I once showed up on time for some furniture and the people were surprised that I even showed up.
German shepherd puppy (he seems to love meeting new people now (??????)


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

About cats - where I live, it is against the law to allow cats outside. Yes, I understand that dogs and cats may slip out the door, but around here, that is not often the case. It is more of "My cat needs to be free. He needs to roam. It is cruel to keep him inside." Those, 'the law does not apply to me' people. My dogs are contained on my property. If a cat comes into my yard and my dogs kill it, that is the fault of the owner.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> About cats - where I live, it is against the law to allow cats outside. Yes, I understand that dogs and cats may slip out the door, but around here, that is not often the case. It is more of "My cat needs to be free. He needs to roam. It is cruel to keep him inside." Those, 'the law does not apply to me' people. My dogs are contained on my property. If a cat comes into my yard and my dogs kill it, that is the fault of the owner.


Would you feel the same if your dog gets loose and someone shoots it? Oh well owners fault. We can't live in a bubble where only others do wrong.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Would you feel the same if your dog gets loose and someone shoots it? Oh well owners fault. We can't live in a bubble where only others do wrong.


Agree. If somebody's kids leave the gate open and their dog gets out and it walks across my lawn, is it okay for me to shoot it? After all, it was in my yard, that makes it okay don't it?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

cloudpump said:


> Would you feel the same if your dog gets loose and someone shoots it? Oh well owners fault. We can't live in a bubble where only others do wrong.


I live in suburbia. Did you miss the part about people allowing their cats to roam freely? I live in MD. Very un-gun friendly. Not much chance of my dog getting shot. Also not much chance of my dog getting loose. I have multiple safeguards in place. My dogs exit the back door to an upper level deck with a gate. They cannot even go into the yard, until I release them. The yard is fully fenced and the gates are locked at all times. I never leave my dogs in the yard unattended. They only go out the front door on leash and I have trained them to not rush the door. They also are obedient to the recall. 

God forbid, all my safeguards failed and my dogs got out - ran into the street and got hit by a car, or poisoned, or attacked by another dog, etc. - yes, it is still absolutely my fault. They are my dogs. They are my responsibility. It is my job to protect them. If something happens to them, that's on me - completely.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I live in suburbia. Did you miss the part about people allowing their cats to roam freely? I live in MD. Very un-gun friendly. Not much chance of my dog getting shot. Also not much chance of my dog getting loose. I have multiple safeguards in place. My dogs exit the back door to an upper level deck with a gate. They cannot even go into the yard, until I release them. The yard is fully fenced and the gates are locked at all times. I never leave my dogs in the yard unattended. They only go out the front door on leash and I have trained them to not rush the door. They also are obedient to the recall.
> 
> God forbid, all my safeguards failed and my dogs got out - ran into the street and got hit by a car, or poisoned, or attacked by another dog, etc. - yes, it is still absolutely my fault. They are my dogs. They are my responsibility. It is my job to protect them. If something happens to them, that's on me - completely.


I agree somewhat. But it's impossible to keep cats indoors. I'm not a cat owner, I hate when they run across my yard and get my dogs worked up because they are loose, but it happens. Cats are very different from dogs. My yard is also enclosed with a good fence and gates, but someone came into our yard earlier this year and left the gate open enough for my dogs to get out. I was out with them, didn't know it was open because I couldn't see it from where I was. I called them and they didn't respond, so I went looking. The gate was open, they were gone. I'm lucky they didn't go far and my puppy came racing back to me immediately but my owner dog was busy with something in another yard and didn't respond. I had to chase her down. I'm usually very diligent, I didn't know someone had been in my yard and left the gate opened. It was an accident. Accidents happen.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

None of that makes it okay to say "too bad" if their pet kills somebody else's pet without a valid reason a bit stronger than it was loose and roaming.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree somewhat. But it's impossible to keep cats indoors. I'm not a cat owner, I hate when they run across my yard and get my dogs worked up because they are loose, but it happens. Cats are very different from dogs. My yard is also enclosed with a good fence and gates, but someone came into our yard earlier this year and left the gate open enough for my dogs to get out. I was out with them, didn't know it was open because I couldn't see it from where I was. I called them and they didn't respond, so I went looking. The gate was open, they were gone. I'm lucky they didn't go far and my puppy came racing back to me immediately but my owner dog was busy with something in another yard and didn't respond. I had to chase her down. I'm usually very diligent, I didn't know someone had been in my yard and left the gate opened. It was an accident. Accidents happen.


Yes cats can be kept indoors. Many people do that. I really don't want to turn this into an argument. It's the same one that is ongoing in my community. We have the people who are insistent on allowing their cats to roam, even though it is AGAINST THE LAW and those that are tired of roaming cats. Me? I am tired of cat poop in my garden, cat poop for my dogs to eat, cats killing the wildlife on my property. 'Cause see? This is MY property and I have the right for it to be cat free. The same people in my community who allow their cats to roam, play the blame game if their cat goes missing, or gets poisoned, or hit by a car. Other people are not responsible for their cat. 

Not really sure how this went from a 'dog that kills cats' to a 'dogs getting shot' thread. A dog killing a cat is not like a human shooting someone's pet. How does that even make sense?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Does the method matter how a pet dies but that an innocent pet needlessly dies?

You don't want cats in your yard? You are right, it is your property. Chase them out. Letting your pet kill somebody else's pet is a bit overkill.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There are a lot of things that don't make sense on here Jan.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This forum is supposed to be a positive experience especially for new people. What is so positive about discussing how it is okay for some people to use our breed as a weapon to dispose of somebody else's loved pet?


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

It might not be a bad idea to go look at him. The owner might just be inexperienced and unprepared for a large, working breed dog. Or the pup could be a disaster or somewhere in-between. It's really hard to tell until someone objective evaluates him. 

If I didn't have cats, I wouldn't mind taking on a cat-aggressive dog. I'd rather take on a cat-aggressive dog than one that was reactive to other dogs. We pass other dogs all the time on walks and hikes, and I like to take my dogs to classes and other dog-events. I like cats too, so, of course, I'd want to manage the dog to protect the neighbors' pets. How practical that is might depend on the situation. We live out in the country where everyone has lots of space. I see many more wandering dogs than cats. I rarely see strange cats and have never seen one inside our chain link fence. In a more populated neighborhood with small yards, keeping dogs and cats separate might be harder.

On a side note, I saw several nice-looking 6-7 month old GSDs listed on Craigslist in our area the other day. One was a really handsome black intact male. I know 2-dogs are my limit, otherwise I'd be really tempted.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> A lunge is different than a kill. I know someone whose dogs killed a neighbor's cat that got onto their property and they are good dogs, but they were also trained dogs and have no baggage. I think it was a pack thing and it only happened once. But this is a complete unknown. Until she has hands on the dog and evaluates, and has it evaluated by someone else who doesn't have a stake in the outcome, I would say no. I think everyone should have a second or third opinion from someone with eyes and hands on the dog. We can't tell from a message board.


A 7 month old pup? They mostly have no clue about right from wrong at this age. Pups "catch" chew toys and shake them to death, it's a natural predator's instinct. This behavior can be trained out of them.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't think anyone is suggesting to send their dogs out to kill cats. 
I love animals in general and don't wish to see them harmed but cats would not hesitate to kill your favorite bird if it wound up in their yard and my dogs would feelthe same about cats or squirrells etc. in their yard. That's life in the animal world.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

sebrench said:


> It might not be a bad idea to go look at him. The owner might just be inexperienced and unprepared for a large, working breed dog. Or the pup could be a disaster or somewhere in-between. It's really hard to tell until someone objective evaluates him.
> 
> If I didn't have cats, I wouldn't mind taking on a cat-aggressive dog. I'd rather take on a cat-aggressive dog than one that was reactive to other dogs. We pass other dogs all the time on walks and hikes, and I like to take my dogs to classes and other dog-events. I like cats too, so, of course, I'd want to manage the dog to protect the neighbors' pets. How practical that is might depend on the situation. We live out in the country where everyone has lots of space. I see many more wandering dogs than cats. I rarely see strange cats and have never seen one inside our chain link fence. In a more populated neighborhood with small yards, keeping dogs and cats separate might be harder.
> 
> On a side note, I saw several nice-looking 6-7 month old GSDs listed on Craigslist in our area the other day. One was a really handsome black intact male. I know 2-dogs are my limit, otherwise I'd be really tempted.


I have purchased or traded many tropical fish species on CraigsList, tortoises, and flower pots, but never a dog. I am too suspicious of the posters as far as telling the truth. If I were a dog trainer perhaps.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> Killing cats is nothing but prey drive. Ridiculous to think otherwise. Plenty of dogs with prey drive can live safely with cats, but they have to be trained, just like with anything else.


That's far from the truth. My GSDs wants to chase but not kill animals. By the strictest definition of "prey drive" you'd be correct but GSDs are domesticated dogs and they don't work in the same way as a wild wolf and we should be thankful it does not work like that. It's possible that the GSD's prey drive may cause it to kill another animal but from my experience that's not the case for most GSDs.

Now it would not take much encouragement to go from their herding instinct to actually killing animals but is that what you really want?

So again, my issue with my GSD's "prey drive" is that they obsess over chasing and cornering animals in my yard and not killing them. What's ridiculous is believing that the GSD's instincts means it is driven to kill other animals. While there are a few cases where this would be true, it's mostly false and GSDs running around killing cats were probably encouraged to engage in the behavior. GSDs running around chasing cats, that's quite common.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A wild bird is not a domesticated pet with a family that loves them or even a stray without a family looking for help. 

Dogs are domesticated. We aren't talking about wolves, so no, killing cats or even wildlife that comes into the yard is not life in the animal world according to most domesticated dogs.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A wild bird is not a domesticated pet with a family that loves them or even a stray without a family looking for help.
> 
> Dogs are domesticated. We aren't talking about wolves, so no, killing cats or even wildlife that comes into the yard is not life in the animal world according to most domesticated dogs.


That's my point. A GSD's prey drive is not the same as a wild wolf's prey drive. Some people treat them the same which I believe disrespects the GSD breeders who wants to create a herding and protection dog, a companion.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

MAWL. I had racing pigeons as kid and lost a few to cats, my pigeons were not wild birds but trained racing homers and pets. Cats killed some of them doing what cats do and I hated the cats in the moment and thought about shooting them but didn't.
If cats come into my yard they better also be smart enough and fast enough to find a tree. I'm ot going to devote time I could enjoy with my dogs training them to leave, a stray cat that may never happen, alone.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Are you saying that if your dog(s) had a hold of a lost kitten in your backyard that you would do nothing to stop it?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

No, I'm not saying that.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The prey drive is a sequence of behaviors and not all dogs inherit the kill bite. Field Labs have very high prey drive, but lack the kill bite. The same can be said of many German Shepherds. I have owned many that would chase small animals, but not kill. Once the running stops, the game stopped, no training involved.


I think it's sad that over the last decade or more it seems an emphasis has been put on high prey drive rather than proper temperament. With a solid temperament, very little training needs to be used.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Yes cats can be kept indoors. Many people do that. I really don't want to turn this into an argument. It's the same one that is ongoing in my community. We have the people who are insistent on allowing their cats to roam, even though it is AGAINST THE LAW and those that are tired of roaming cats. Me? I am tired of cat poop in my garden, cat poop for my dogs to eat, cats killing the wildlife on my property. 'Cause see? This is MY property and I have the right for it to be cat free. The same people in my community who allow their cats to roam, play the blame game if their cat goes missing, or gets poisoned, or hit by a car. Other people are not responsible for their cat.
> 
> Not really sure how this went from a 'dog that kills cats' to a 'dogs getting shot' thread. A dog killing a cat is not like a human shooting someone's pet. How does that even make sense?


Because someone said that killing a pet cat in your yard doesn't make a dog unadoptable. It is relevant. To me, it does but that is just my opinion. Because cats aren't against the law here, I don't expect my yard to be cat free anymore than I expect it to be skunk free, so I'm having trouble relating to your example, but I agree, it's annoying to see anyone else's animals destroying our property.

We shouldn't argue. We should be able to discuss calmly and disagree without getting angry.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> A 7 month old pup? They mostly have no clue about right from wrong at this age. Pups "catch" chew toys and shake them to death, it's a natural predator's instinct. This behavior can be trained out of them.


You need to look at the whole picture, not just killing one cat. The dog is a danger to their own pets. It is screaming when touched. It has serious behavior problems that may already be ingrained. I think in the right home without children and with someone who is good with dog behavior and no other dogs, it could be fine. But we can't assume because the dog is a puppy, it will automatically be rehabilitated. We don't know. We are all talking about a dog we have never seem and relying on information in a CL post that might not even be complete. It's not responsible to assume anything one way or the other. But no, I would not take a 7 month old with all those serious problems.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Everyone is assuming that the dog killed the cat on purpose viciously. No one knows that. I have good dogs and I can see them hurting or killing a cat by playing to rough. They are never together without supervision. The size difference alone scares me, but I also have one cat that thinks he can take the dogs. 

I would want to know more about the circumstances surrounding that. I would also like to know what they mean by screaming when touched? That's just an odd way of putting it. I'm not to sure that they seem to know enough about dogs or the breed to properly explain what they are seeing. I would be curious enough to check the dog out based on their description alone.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Everyone is assuming that the dog killed the cat on purpose viciously. No one knows that. I have good dogs and I can see them hurting or killing a cat by playing to rough. They are never together without supervision. The size difference alone scares me, but I also have one cat that thinks he can take the dogs.
> 
> I would want to know more about the circumstances surrounding that. I would also like to know what they mean by screaming when touched? That's just an odd way of putting it. I'm not to sure that they seem to know enough about dogs or the breed to properly explain what they are seeing. I would be curious enough to check the dog out based on their description alone.


I don't think it was vicious, it was more likely prey drive and play that got out of control. But the dog doesn't seem to have self control. You have never heard a German Shepherd screeching out of frustration or fear? If you did, you would never forget it. It's a high pitched cry, very loud, almost like it's in pain.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, let's drop that whole cat thing. The dog is back on CL, with a discount and she doesn't respond to my last email from last night when I asked if I could take a look at him. Maybe they are worried that I see or understand too much as a trainer? Never ever, mention that you are a trainer when looking at a CL dog. It has happened a few times before. Case closed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm not questioning her experience, but until one has handled a dog with extreme behaviors you don't know if you can handle this or not. It's not typical training, the dog will require intensive behavior modification and not everyone can do that for this specific behavior. Maybe she could if she wanted to. Having had a difficult dog with nowhere near those problems, I was not prepared for what I had. It took years to learn how to handle the dog properly and then he made a good pet.
> .


I have successfully rehabbed a similar feral-behaving dog in the past. It took me several months of intense training and helping the new owners. It was my success story. She lived happily until she died at 15 years old. Some dogs will surprise you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, let's drop that whole cat thing. The dog is back on CL, with a discount and she doesn't respond to my last email from last night when I asked if I could take a look at him. Maybe they are worried that I see or understand too much as a trainer? Never ever, mention that you are a trainer when looking at a CL dog. It has happened a few times before. Case closed.


Good luck finding the right dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I have successfully rehabbed a similar feral-behaving dog in the past. It took me several months of intense training and helping the new owners. It was my success story. She lived happily until she died at 15 years old. Some dogs will surprise you.


That's great. It takes dedication and time. I also kept a difficult dog, but not feral. He had been tied in yard his whole life, finally escaped and was rescued. They found his home, talked to the owner, got the story and decided to take him, the owner said yes, and I got him. I loved that dog but I don't think I would ever take on that kind of responsibility again.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Giovani said:


> I think it's sad that over the last decade or more it seems an emphasis has been put on high prey drive rather than proper temperament. With a solid temperament, very little training needs to be used.


Just curious what you consider to be proper temperament? Good for you might be not suitable for someone else. Maybe this needs its own thread. For me solid nerves is most important. I can't have a skittish or jumpy dog who cowers when the wind knocks over a garbage pale. 
I understand why people want high prey drive, they channel that drive to have the dog perform many tasks.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, let's drop that whole cat thing. The dog is back on CL, with a discount and she doesn't respond to my last email from last night when I asked if I could take a look at him. Maybe they are worried that I see or understand too much as a trainer? Never ever, mention that you are a trainer when looking at a CL dog. It has happened a few times before. Case closed.


Use a different email and just say you are very interested in the dog and if you can come by. Keep it very short and sweet. Bring a pot with you to drop behind him, a ball, a tug. You know what to do.:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Just curious what you consider to be proper temperament? Good for you might be not suitable for someone else. Maybe this needs its own thread. For me solid nerves is most important. I can't have a skittish or jumpy dog who cowers when the wind knocks over a garbage pale.
> I understand why people want high prey drive, they channel that drive to have the dog perform many tasks.


An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne

The Genetic Origin of the Breed

"Q) What impact would there be if these genetics were lost?

This is the easiest of the sixteen questions!

The dog would become what it already is and can only get worse! Such dogs are no longer biddable! They have a very unbalanced temperament! They have to constantly be bribed and baited with food [treats] and require a lot of praise just to be coaxed into working! They have to be stimulated with sticks or balls! We didn’t use those methods fifty years ago. They weren’t necessary!

At schutzhund training there is a new magic word called “prey drive”. It means that the dog is expected to grip the sleeve and with much praise from his handler carry it far off the field!! You can imagine a herding dog running all day long, having the occasion to discipline a sheep and then dragging it as prey all over the place ─ and then [to add insult to injury] you need an electric shock collar just to make him let go!!! These dogs have something wrong in the head ─ they have become the victims of politics!!!"

German Shepherd Herding » An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne

You want your own breed with ultra high prey drive? Get a Mal or create your own breed, leave this breed alone.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Actually it wasn't even sure if that pup killed that cat. The cat was *found* dead in the yard and no one saw how it happened. Things get taken out of context if the article is not carefully read. The dog has 'attacked' the family cat but that can be taken with a grain of salt if we are talking about a pup.
Maybe we can close this thread?


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

Julian G said:


> Just curious what you consider to be proper temperament? Good for you might be not suitable for someone else. Maybe this needs its own thread. For me solid nerves is most important. I can't have a skittish or jumpy dog who cowers when the wind knocks over a garbage pale.
> I understand why people want high prey drive, they channel that drive to have the dog perform many tasks.


You'll have to be more specific but I believe a dog that's not perpetually hyper, one that's more focused on their surroundings and handler, good defense and fight drives. I've only had 1 that while having strong herding instinct, moderate prey drive, and the ability to on her own control that drive so she's not chomping on every small creature that crossed her path because she could.

I've had people many times tell me that GSD acted like a human.

The one I have now is high prey, hyper, smart but I know she has issues controlling herself at times. FYI, I knew this going in that she would be this way as I evaluated the parents and spoke at length with the breeder. I have not had a skittish GSD yet. They've been mostly bold but yeah, you can scare them but you will probably get away with it for 2 seconds before they charge at you.

I just don't seem to read about any "thinker" GSDs. The conversation seems to always be about prey drive.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, let's drop that whole cat thing. The dog is back on CL, with a discount and she doesn't respond to my last email from last night when I asked if I could take a look at him. Maybe they are worried that I see or understand too much as a trainer? Never ever, mention that you are a trainer when looking at a CL dog. It has happened a few times before. Case closed.


I haven't checked my local CL lately, kinda afraid of what I'll find. They just posted a 6-7 yr old male Mal that was found and brought to the shelter. The problem is that they are saying he will be moved to another shelter, but the shelter they are moving him to is putting dogs to sleep at record numbers because they are doing construction and the director failed to find housing for 200-400 dogs. They are trying to get her out of that spot, because she just doesn't fo Her job. I'm afraid that because they move him he might not be reunited with hus owners. He is a beautiful dog. It's very sad.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Use a different email and just say you are very interested in the dog and if you can come by. Keep it very short and sweet. Bring a pot with you to drop behind him, a ball, a tug. You know what to do.:smile2:


Not gonna do that. The ball is in her court and I have a reputation to hold up in the community. Dishonesty tends to bite you in the butt. This is my last comment for this thread; all others are free to continue their off-topic discussion. :grin2: I am going outside and play in the snow with Deja.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A wild bird is not a domesticated pet with a family that loves them or even a stray without a family looking for help.
> 
> Dogs are domesticated. We aren't talking about wolves, so no, killing cats or even wildlife that comes into the yard is not life in the animal world according to most domesticated dogs.


Wild birds have every right to live just as any other living thing. One does not have more "value" because there are human emotions attached to it. 

As for your link on Heyne, thanks for the read. Interesting to know that Tukes instinctive leg grab has a meaning to it and not just her being a pest.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Wild birds have every right to live just as any other living thing. One does not have more "value" because there are human emotions attached to it.
> 
> As for your link on Heyne, thanks for the read. Interesting to know that Tukes instinctive leg grab has a meaning to it and not just her being a pest.


No where did I say birds don't have the right to live. 

I am clearly stating that nobody should be promoting or supporting the use of our breed to kill somebody else's pet and shrug it off as no big deal whether it is done by accident or deliberately. 

No where does it state in any interpretation of the breed standard that one of the tasks our breed should be capable of is blood sports or the thrill killing of other peoples' pets that so many seem to be in support of on here.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Not gonna do that. The ball is in her court and I have a reputation to hold up in the community. Dishonesty tends to bite you in the butt. This is my last comment for this thread; all others are free to continue their off-topic discussion. :grin2: I am going outside and play in the snow with Deja.


It seems foolish of them not to respond to your email. I am hoping for a good outcome for this troubled pup.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

while at the Vet's (xrays for hips and elbow cert) the vet commented on balanced temperament which you don't see anymore.
He said -- we are loosing our old breeders who knew dogs and we are loosing our trainers who knew dogs .

This goes directly to this Heyne comment 
" They have to be stimulated with sticks or balls! We didn’t use those methods fifty years ago. They weren’t necessary!


so true


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm confused. I'm hearing conflicting things about the "good old days" of GSD.

Some say they love the working drives of the more modern GSD because a trainer does not have to resort to so much compulsion.

They like a dog that will work for a ball or tug, and with the handler, rather than a dog that must be motivated by old-school compulsion training. 

They say the dogs of modern times are more happy and eager in the work and more fun to train.

Is there a divide? 

Is this just a case of people thinking the good old days were better than they were?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

carmspack said:


> while at the Vet's (xrays for hips and elbow cert) the vet commented on balanced temperament which you don't see anymore.
> He said -- we are loosing our old breeders who knew dogs and we are loosing our trainers who knew dogs .
> 
> This goes directly to this Heyne comment
> ...


I see a huge difference in the dogs I have now compared to the ones I owned in the past and I personally don't care for some of it. I think the breed went backwards in some aspects.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Interesting, MAWL.

My GSD is not "working-line", but she gets comments from everyone, including the vet, about how nicely behaved she is and more like the old-style GSDs they had growing up. She is the perfect family dog in every way, but still a GSD with balanced drives. 

I am wondering if "pet quality" dogs might have gone downhill to get nervy and skitchy while the working quality dogs improved.

I just haven't seen enough of the "old" and "new" to compare. But I do not like what I am seeing, in general, in pet-type GSD.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Most working lines are from imports, so no longer really Am bred. Most pet lines are BYB. Then there are the show lines. Show lines are bred for movement first. They are bred for temperament as they have to be able to go into a loud chaotic atmosphere with tons of people and dogs and have strangers able to touch them. I think some show breeders are better than others. So when people talk about old lines it's basically the dogs from the first BYBs and show lines from the first imports after the war when they were brought back. 


If we say the working lines have improved, is it improved from when the GSD was first bred by Max? You can get nervy and skitchy from both BYB and working lines. Years ago breeders were people who usually had big money and big kennels. Those days are gone. Breeders became more the people with a male and a female or a female with a friend who had a male. Temperament slowly went by the wayside. Or they were small hobby show breeders led by the parent club who over the years changed the structure to what it is now. 


I remember shepherds from 50 years ago. Even longer to be honest. Some were good and some had to be kept chained or they disappeared and the family got a new one. Some were great family pets. Some would bite you as soon as look at you. They were very popular pets in the 50s and 60s. Like any popular breed, indiscriminate breeding was popular as demand for the breed increased. But all in all, I see as many good one and bad ones today as I saw back then.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Interesting, MAWL.
> 
> My GSD is not "working-line", but she gets comments from everyone, including the vet, about how nicely behaved she is and more like the old-style GSDs they had growing up. She is the perfect family dog in every way, but still a GSD with balanced drives.
> 
> ...


I will send you a PM.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Giovani said:


> You'll have to be more specific but I believe a dog that's not perpetually hyper, one that's more focused on their surroundings and handler, good defense and fight drives. I've only had 1 that while having strong herding instinct, moderate prey drive, and the ability to on her own control that drive so she's not chomping on every small creature that crossed her path because she could.
> 
> I've had people many times tell me that GSD acted like a human.
> 
> ...


From what people tell me and from what I read, GSDs are more "thinkers" than mals or dutchies who tend to just "do it". I have been researching working line breeders for a while now, and whenever I feel like I have the right one, someone tells me that the dog they got from that breeder was not up to par.

Edit: Was referring to GSD breeders. Not dutch/mals


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> From what people tell me and from what I read, GSDs are more "thinkers" than mals or dutchies who tend to just "do it". I have been researching working line breeders for a while now, and whenever I feel like I have the right one, someone tells me that the dog they got from that breeder was not up to par.


What happened to your dutch that you were getting?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> What happened to your dutch that you were getting?


Still on the waiting list, I was referring to researching GSD breeders. Sorry I wasnt more clear.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

Julian G said:


> From what people tell me and from what I read, GSDs are more "thinkers" than mals or dutchies who tend to just "do it". I have been researching working line breeders for a while now, and whenever I feel like I have the right one, someone tells me that the dog they got from that breeder was not up to par.
> 
> Edit: Was referring to GSD breeders. Not dutch/mals


I've only owned GSDs. I've considered a few other breeds in the past but I've had such a good experience with GSDs that I'd rather not make a 10+ year commitment with a dog I'm not happy with. From what I've seen GSDs seem to be more thinker dogs than others and there's a few reasons for that. I believe it becomes less obvious when they have a very high prey drive they can't control.

I did consider a Mal in the past but after some research I'm glad I didn't.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

Deb said:


> If we say the working lines have improved, is it improved from when the GSD was first bred by Max? You can get nervy and skitchy from both BYB and working lines. Years ago breeders were people who usually had big money and big kennels. Those days are gone. Breeders became more the people with a male and a female or a female with a friend who had a male. Temperament slowly went by the wayside. Or they were small hobby show breeders led by the parent club who over the years changed the structure to what it is now.


The good thing about focusing on temperament is that a GSD with a good temperament can withstand abuse, poor training, and unexpected situations where the dog needs to make a decision on their own. Not always but I believe with a good temperament even after some negative situations the GSD when put into even a halfway decent environment can become the great dog they were meant to be.

I think there should be a balance between high prey drive GSDs and their temperament. I don't see that happening. I'm not a trainer but I've read a few times how they want a high drive GSD because they're easy to train with toys and such which IMHO is sort of shallow thinking.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Giovani said:


> I've only owned GSDs. I've considered a few other breeds in the past but I've had such a good experience with GSDs that I'd rather not make a 10+ year commitment with a dog I'm not happy with. From what I've seen GSDs seem to be more thinker dogs than others and there's a few reasons for that. I believe it becomes less obvious when they have a very high prey drive they can't control.
> 
> I did consider a Mal in the past but after some research I'm glad I didn't.


What turned you off? Because I have been going back and forth between GSD and dutch/mal for about a year now.


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

Julian G said:


> What turned you off? Because I have been going back and forth between GSD and dutch/mal for about a year now.


They were too high drive for me. I saw a youtube video of some mal pups and they were off the wall drive already. My GSD now as a pup was always hyper and the mal pups in the video put her to shame in that area. That was the main reason. I also wanted a bigger dog than a mal but I would not rule one out based on the difference in size alone.

That was the main reason. Mals are beautiful dogs IMHO.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I'm confused. I'm hearing conflicting things about the "good old days" of GSD.
> 
> Some say they love the working drives of the more modern GSD because a trainer does not have to resort to so much compulsion.
> 
> ...


A couple things, just to think about. The dogs weren't trained the way they are now back in the good old days. They were still debating whether or not food was ok in obedience in the early 90's. Compulsion was the norm. When I was growing up, nervy, aggressive German Shepherds were still around. I got bit by one when I was 11. There's a lot more German Shepherds in general now, so there are more of each type to see. Good and bad. 

You really can't say how the dogs of old would have responded to newer, play motivated training. They were never given the chance. A good dog is still a good dog, don't mistake prey drive for good nerves.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know highly skilled people who ultimately had to rehome their high prey drive GSDs due to killing family cats to homes without cats and with the ability and commitment to ensure the safety of others. They tried everything and consulted with the best of the best.
> 
> If we are going to own dogs like these with the capacity of harming or killing other household pets or those of other people in our communities, we have to be realistic about the potential and about assuming appropriate control and management or we can be looking at some of the same legal problems facing other breeds of dogs today when their owners assume a cavalier attitude about inappropriate animal aggression.


It may not work with every dog but but there are methods with which most well breed gsd with high prey drives can be kept from killing cats. My dog is a high drive dog that would kill a cat if did not keep him from it i know he will do a kill shake as he does it with toys when very in drive and will catch and kill squirrels not much i can do about that nor do i want to. I love his high prey as well as his balance with defense. We have a small dog 3lb mix with whom he is now fine with. Since we brought him home as a puppy it just took management and supervision and now that he has matured a bit more he completely ignores her. Im sure it would be different with cat but idk i dont have cats. The point is he is a great dog balance loving yet he has high prey drive and would likely kill a cat. Only if it was some how in our yard un noticed by me and not quick enough to get out when he is let out. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> And if this is the level our breed has sunk to, maybe we need to take a good, serious look at some breeding practices. A German Shepherd should first and foremost be a good family pet and good family pets don't kill other household pets, nor should they be a menace to other pets in the community


I guess that where we will have to agree to disagree a GSD is a working breed and to me should first and foremost be a good worker then he can earn the right to be my pet. The two are not mutually exclusive and and a good gsd should be both. Work when nessesary and have a great off switch in the house.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> A couple things, just to think about. The dogs weren't trained the way they are now back in the good old days. They were still debating whether or not food was ok in obedience in the early 90's. Compulsion was the norm. When I was growing up, nervy, aggressive German Shepherds were still around. I got bit by one when I was 11. There's a lot more German Shepherds in general now, so there are more of each type to see. Good and bad.
> 
> You really can't say how the dogs of old would have responded to newer, play motivated training. They were never given the chance. A good dog is still a good dog, don't mistake prey drive for good nerves.


I have a question, and I guess it pertains to this thread. I have been told to pick the calmest dog in a well pedigreed litter. The pup that seems to not have a care in the world and nothing fazes it. The thought being that genetics is 95% of it, and he will have the right genes for protection work without the "craziness" that goes along with these types of dogs. 
Again, I am just processing all the info I have gotten. Want to see what you guys think about this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

girardid said:


> It may not work with every dog but but there are methods with which most well breed gsd with high prey drives can be kept from killing cats. My dog is a high drive dog that would kill a cat if did not keep him from it i know he will do a kill shake as he does it with toys when very in drive and will catch and kill squirrels not much i can do about that nor do i want to. I love his high prey as well as his balance with defense. We have a small dog 3lb mix with whom he is now fine with. Since we brought him home as a puppy it just took management and supervision and now that he has matured a bit more he completely ignores her. Im sure it would be different with cat but idk i dont have cats. The point is he is a great dog balance loving yet he has high prey drive and would likely kill a cat. Only if it was some how in our yard un noticed by me and not quick enough to get out when he is let out.


To each his own, some people don't have a problem with a dog that needlessly slaughters other animals and must be kept from doing it while others find it a tipping point.



girardid said:


> I guess that where we will have to agree to disagree a GSD is a working breed and to me should first and foremost be a good worker then he can earn the right to be my pet. The two are not mutually exclusive and and a good gsd should be both. Work when nessesary and have a great off switch in the house.


I am not sure why you are making the false assumption that I don't think a GSD should be first and foremost a working dog. I am saying that a GSD's work should not be that which could be likened to that of a good, gamebred pit fighter. German Shepherds have worked in many capacities through the decades without high prey drive and have done very good jobs be it as a MWD, K9 or in other venues. High prey drive is not a requirement to be a good worker. A dog that is driven to thrill kill other animals is not good pet material regardless of its work potential and must be constantly managed, that is, if you are responsible. 

There are many that used to post on this forum with first hand experienced in work venues then and now that can attest, and did, speak out about this topic that have been driven off of this forum with the disrespect shown them by those far less experienced who know only high prey drive dogs and how to train only them. Do a search on here, there have been many threads by those who breed and place their dogs with LE, those that consult and train for LE, judge in protection venues, etc., vs those who have never bred a litter, participate only in sports, and have no experience with MWD or LE K9s.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> To each his own, some people don't have a problem with a dog that needlessly slaughters other animals and must be kept from doing it while others find it a tipping point.


Its rare and managing it is not much work on my part i wouldnt even call it a problem because it rarely if ever comes up. But agian not really my point.



> I am not sure why you are making the false assumption that I don't think a GSD should be first and foremost a working dog.


I assumed it because thats what you said



MineAreWorkingline said:


> A German Shepherd should first and foremost be a good family pet


Maybe you didn't mean it or misspoke but again not really the point



> I am saying that a GSD's work should not be that which could be likened to that of a good, gamebred pit fighter. German Shepherds have worked in many capacities through the decades without high prey drive and have done very good jobs be it as a MWD, K9 or in other venues. High prey drive is not a requirement to be a good worker. A dog that is driven to thrill kill other animals is not good pet material regardless of its work potential and must be constantly managed, that is, if you are responsible.
> 
> There are many that used to post on this forum with first hand experienced in work venues then and now that can attest, and did, speak out about this topic that have been driven off of this forum with the disrespect shown them by those far less experienced who know only high prey drive dogs and how to train only them. Do a search on here, there have been many threads by those who breed and place their dogs with LE, those that consult and train for LE, judge in protection venues, etc., vs those who have never bred a litter, participate only in sports, and have no experience with MWD or LE K9s.


Again I disagree, working a dogs both past and present have high prey drives. Now Im not talking over the top prey monsters where they dont even see a decoy because there is a sleeve present but high prey drive none the less. These dogs are balance have good thresholds and their drives can be capped. I highly doubt you will find anyone with real working dogs that wouldn't describe them as having high prey. Again im not saying they are prey monsters but balanced dogs with high prey drive. I know my dog would be a good real life worker because he is doing great as my sport dog so far and although they are very different a good dog is a good dog. His litterateur is an active K9 right now and his breeder is doing a repeat litter because of its success last time. The genes are there and among them is a high prey drive. 

True i am new to dog sports and my pup is my first dog but Ive done my research and my trainers and the people i work with are anything but new with credentials like national champion ships in multiple protection sports and one being a military dog handler before becoming a trainer breeder who did sell his high prey dogs to LEs. 

A good dog will have high drives but he is only a good dog if he is balanced and those drives are able to be channeled and put into use. I love my dog his high prey his balance and his great temperament. As for needlessly killing animals if it happened anything more than once in a blue moon with a squirrel caught in the open i would take the time to train him out of it. As for now id rather spend time training and playing with him.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

girardid said:


> Its rare and managing it is not much work on my part i wouldnt even call it a problem because it rarely if ever comes up. But agian not really my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A GSD's first job is a good family pet, that is the most important one, but still they are a working dog. 

Have you owned or had hands on experience with dogs of the past to say whether they had high prey drive or not? I have. 

Who is arguing balanced dogs? This is about dogs who aren't balanced and are killing their own kind and other peoples' pets.

I know people with real working dogs that are not high prey. In fact, high prey is not desirable in many PPD real works venues dependent on expectations. You just haven't met these people and their dogs yet. But maybe you have and you only assume that their dogs are high prey. And just because you haven't met them does not mean the dogs aren't out there.

My bitch has four brothers who are active working K9s. Her sire is owned by the Czech government and is an active duty Czech police dog who has taken first place in multiple working championships in Europe. Her breeder will not be doing a repeat breeding because the dam is now in the US but the breeder is using this stud for other breedings. I am not sure what this has to do with anything any more than your dog having a litter mate that is a police K9 and the breeder will be repeating the litter. I trust that both of these breeders will be making their breeding choices on the whole package and just not on whether the dogs have high prey drive or not.

You contradict yourself. You say a good dog will have high drives followed by it is only a good dog if it is balanced and its drives can be put to use. They are not mutually inclusive. So if a dog is high drive, but those drives aren't balanced and can't be channeled, are you saying the dog isn't a good dog despite having high drives?

One of my mentors was a MWD trainer. Once again I fail to see what that or you working with somebody that handled a military dog has to do with the topic.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That herding website has a lot of reading. It gives a pretty good context, more complete when you read it all. Its not prey drive in any amount thats a problem. Prey drive, biting prey, there's more to the whole thing. 



> There are two drives the German shepherd herding dog must have not only to succeed in practical, everyday sheep herding work which demands independent performance, but also to excel in HGH herding competitions. They are (1) “total attraction to the sheep“; and (2) “genetic obedience“. These drives are genetic, can be selectively bred for and are expressions of the prey instinct. The higher and more balanced these drives are, the higher the level of performance the skilled shepherd can bring out in the dog without compulsion training. [NOTE: By compulsion training I mean: to compel a dog to do something it does not want to do either because it is not in him to do it or because it is not yet ready to do it.]
> “Total attraction to the sheep” is a specific and focused aspect of the prey instinct. It is an intense, almost obsessive, form of the prey drive which is expressed by behaviors to possess and control sheep to the exclusion of all other prey objects. An example of a dog with this high drive is one which, when in the presence of sheep, does not care about anyone or anything except “counting the sheep” and one which literally “laughs” with pure pleasure while working the sheep. Expressions of this drive can be seen when observing the behavior of the selectively bred herding dog patrolling the boundary of a graze. For example, the dog: (1) moves energetically along the boundary; (2) is totally focused on the sheep in the graze — never taking its eyes off of them even when reversing direction; (3) literally has a “laughing” expression on its face; and, (4) carries its tail high while working. “Total attraction to the sheep” is the fuel that keeps the dog working tirelessly all day — the higher this drive, the higher the octane.





> When a litter is whelped, Manfred spends as much time as possible with it every day right from the time it is born to familiarize the pups to him and to the tones of his voice. Testing begins at about 3 weeks of age with the following being some of his puppy tests:
> At 3-4 weeks he puts a pan of food in with the hungry litter. When the puppies are eating and fully intent on the food, he makes a sudden loud noise near them but out of their sight. He does this several times over the course of testing and notes those puppies that consistently show no concern over the noise;
> At about 4-6 weeks, he stands by the pen and calls the puppies to see which ones consistently come to him. He notes those puppies showing the greatest interest and attraction in being with him;
> From 4-7 weeks, every other day he puts a lamb in with the litter. He starts with a very young lamb and increases the size of the lamb as the puppies grow. He notes those puppies consistently showing only an intense attraction to the lamb — i.e. ones, which approach the lamb with tail wagging and strong eye contact. He repeats this test every other day for 3 weeks to see if interest is maintained with the same intensity; and,
> After 7 weeks, he puts a size-appropriate lamb in with the litter to see which ones consistently grip the lamb in the three places allowed for gripping — the top of the neck, the ribs and just above the hock. He eliminates those puppies that grip in the wrong places.


Read through it. Its pretty interesting.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A GSD's first job is a good family pet, that is the most important one, but still they are a working dog.


You say first job is a good pet and I disagree his first job is work whether that be sport LE K9 or PPD and then if they are successful they can be a pet. This is my opinion and my own view everyone is entitled to theirs.



> Who is arguing balanced dogs? This is about dogs who aren't balanced and are killing their own kind and other peoples' pets.


the dog doesnt know if its a pet or a squirrel or stray cat it just wants to chase and some will finish it if they catch it Im not saying its a good thing but it not a deal breaker to me as it doesnt a effect my life with my dog.



> I know people with real working dogs that are not high prey. In fact, high prey is not desirable in many PPD real works venues dependent on expectations. You just haven't met these people and their dogs yet. But maybe you have and you only assume that their dogs are high prey. And just because you haven't met them does not mean the dogs aren't out there.


I know that their dogs are high in prey because thats what they said but the dog are not only high in prey but are balanced.

it seems to be a misunderstanding i define a a high prey drive dog as a dog whose prey drive is high I don't think it has anything to do with his other drives.

I guess when you say high prey drive you mean a dog who leans mostly towards prey drive and everything else is low in comparison.

If you understand my definition a high prey drive dog can also be a balance dog his high drive prey and other can be used and channeled into his work. I agree that dogs with only prey drive are not good candidates for work because they lack balance and the ability to channel in and out of their drives fluidly.



> My bitch has four brothers who are active working K9s. Her sire is owned by the Czech government and is an active duty Czech police dog who has taken first place in multiple working championships in Europe. Her breeder will not be doing a repeat breeding because the dam is now in the US but the breeder is using this stud for other breedings. I am not sure what this has to do with anything any more than your dog having a litter mate that is a police K9 and the breeder will be repeating the litter. I trust that both of these breeders will be making their breeding choices on the whole package and just not on whether the dogs have high prey drive or not.


IM saying it because high prey drive is important it is obviously not the only only thing that goes into a good working dog but if the dog wont chase a ball heel for a tug or ball reward learn commands for a toy reward it does not have a high prey drive and would be washed out of any sport or k9 program. 



> You contradict yourself. You say a good dog will have high drives followed by it is only a good dog if it is balanced and its drives can be put to use. They are not mutually inclusive. So if a dog is high drive, but those drives aren't balanced and can't be channeled, are you saying the dog isn't a good dog despite having high drives?


Im not contradiction my self i said good dogs have high prey drive not all high prey drive dogs are good working dogs like the dog i mentioned being prey monsters and locking in only on the sleeve. For a dog to be a good worker it must have high drive yet be able channel those drives the two are mutually inclusive. 

Im just saying i feel like this is just a misunderstanding because we have different definitions of high prey drive.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> these drives are genetic, can be selectively bred for and are expressions of the prey instinct. The higher and more balanced these drives are, the higher the level of performance the skilled shepherd can bring out in the dog without compulsion training.


This is exactally thr point i was trying to make. High prey drive is a good thing a dog with no prey cannot work. The higher the prey drive the better as long as the dog is balanced and can be capped. 

Great article steve thanks!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> That herding website has a lot of reading. It gives a pretty good context, more complete when you read it all. Its not prey drive in any amount thats a problem. Prey drive, biting prey, there's more to the whole thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Prey drive focused exclusively on sheep should be expected but I highly doubt that is the situation today. 

I wonder how effective a high prey drive GSD that would kill the sheep would be, or one that would leave the sheep to chase and / or kill rabbits.

I also wonder if one would find a difference between a GSD who is fixated on the sheep vs a GSD that fixates on any small animal in real work venues.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

girardid said:


> This is exactally thr point i was trying to make. High prey drive is a good thing a dog with no prey cannot work. The higher the prey drive the better as long as the dog is balanced and can be capped.
> 
> Great article steve thanks!


Uh, that was an excerpt from the article I posted where it stated that high prey drive GSDs have something wrong in the head. You are taking things out of context.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think something wrong in the head and high prey drive are two separate things. You can have either, both, or neither.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I think something wrong in the head and high prey drive are two separate things. You can have either, both, or neither.


You are entitled to your opinion but I have no doubt as to the intent of the written message. He was equating excessive prey drive with something wrong in the head and point blank stated so, even using examples to clarify. 

Of course you want some prey drive but high prey drive is not necessary for work. 

But my questions... how successful can a GSD be if it kills the sheep in its care or leaves them to chase and /or kill rabbits or cats?


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## Giovani (Oct 27, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I think something wrong in the head and high prey drive are two separate things. You can have either, both, or neither.


I think some people are oversimplifying prey drive. There are multiple stages of prey drive. It's not just one thing. It's possible to have high prey drive dog yet it doesn't kill other animals and enhance certain aspects or stages of it.

From the Wiki:

In all predators the prey drive follows an inevitable sequence: Search (orient, eye); Stalk, chase; Bite (grab-bite, kill-bite); dissect, consume.[2][3] In wolves, the prey drive is complete and balanced since it utilises the whole range from search to kill and finally consumes the prey in order to survive.[3]


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Uh, that was an excerpt from the article I posted where it stated that high prey drive GSDs have something wrong in the head. You are taking things out of context.


Different article, same website. I went through several of them after you posted the link. Some are in German, may check them out later with a translator. Heyne is describing the two necessary things for a successful herding dog, lots of prey drive (for the sheep) and genetic obedience.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Different article, same website. I went through several of them after you posted the link. Some are in German, may check them out later with a translator. Heyne is describing the two necessary things for a successful herding dog, lots of prey drive (for the sheep) and genetic obedience.


The level of prey drive others are speaking of here is what he cites and gives examples of as being not right in the head. 

On a scale of 1-10 if a dog has a prey drive score of 5, that is a lot of prey drive compared to a dog who scores a 1 and this is where people are getting confused. A 5 can be a good solid prey drive more than capable of work. 

As I stated earlier, there are threads on this forum where there are highly experienced people with both types of the dogs that are well worth rereading, that is if you want to learn.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

So my dog killed squirrels by shaking them to death, I'm sorry to sound harsh but I see nothing wrong with this behavior. It's normal prey drive in my book. A dog seeing a small animal running away from it whether it be a cat or squirrel triggers their predator instinct, especially a dog like a GSD. The dog does not know that the cat is someones pet. In my opinion it's the owners responsibility to train the dog leave the cat alone.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> So my dog killed squirrels by shaking them to death, I'm sorry to sound harsh but I see nothing wrong with this behavior. It's normal prey drive in my book. A dog seeing a small animal running away from it whether it be a cat or squirrel triggers their predator instinct, especially a dog like a GSD. The dog does not know that the cat is someones pet. In my opinion it's the owners responsibility to train the dog leave the cat alone.



One thing people forget as a blanket generalization for all dogs, it was the selective breeding of no to low prey drive that gave us good pets. Most people don't have a need to own a dog that kills pets, kills its own kind or may threaten children. So no, you should see something wrong when the average dog exhibits such high prey drive.

Maybe you see nothing wrong with your dog killing innocent animals, but most people today find blood sports offensive.

blood sport: noun - a sport involving the shedding of blood, especially the hunting or killing of animals."cockfighting, bullfighting, fox hunting, and other blood sports"

Was your killing dog a German Shepherd?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/417450-prey-monkeys.html


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> One thing people forget as a blanket generalization for all dogs, it was the selective breeding of no to low prey drive that gave us good pets. Most people don't have a need to own a dog that kills pets, kills its own kind or may threaten children. So no, you should see something wrong when the average dog exhibits such high prey drive.
> 
> Maybe you see nothing wrong with your dog killing innocent animals, but most people today find blood sports offensive.
> 
> ...


Yes, she was a GSD. When she was a pup she would shake tug toys and chew toys. But every GSD pup I have ever seen would do this. Then I started taking her to parks and woods off leash. She would bolt towards squirrels and shake them to death, in my mind she mistook the squirrel for another tug toy with their bushy tails and long bodies. That is why I never saw anything wrong with it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Yes, she was a GSD. When she was a pup she would shake tug toys and chew toys. But every GSD pup I have ever seen would do this. Then I started taking her to parks and woods off leash. She would bolt towards squirrels and shake them to death, in my mind she mistook the squirrel for another tug toy with their bushy tails and long bodies. That is why I never saw anything wrong with it.


In all the years I have been taking my dogs to parks I know of only one incidence where somebody's dog killed a chipmunk. The owner and witnesses were very upset at the killing. Participating in blood sports is not why most people go to parks. Where I live, most feel that nature in parks are something with which they commune. People certainly don't want their children watching dogs killing animals. 

With dogs I know, regardless of breed, it was always about the chase. The chase ended when the wildlife stopped running. They would poke, prod and even nip a small animal to get it to run again. I am sure it happens more often where an animal gets killed than I know of, but I have never even heard others talking about somebody having a dog in the parks and allowing it to kill wildlife either. I guess people here that know or suspect their dogs may be killers don't let them run loose in parks. Are you sure you were not encouraging your dog's killing behavior?

Allowing your dog to kill squirrels in parks would not be tolerated where I live. People don't go to parks to watch innocent wildlife be shredded. People here would take steps to ensure there were leash laws in effect and that they were strictly enforced. That would ruin all off leash fun for the rest of the responsible dog owners who are there to exercise their dogs and have fun with them, not let them kill small animals.

I am not sure I ever met a dog that did not shake its toys. That by no means was a guarantee to transfer over to killing small animals with most of them. In my personal experience, it never has but then again I do not encourage killing behavior directed at animals. That would be quite a useless quality. I never met a squirrel or chipmunk that was a real threat to a human.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are entitled to your opinion but I have no doubt as to the intent of the written message. He was equating excessive prey drive with something wrong in the head and point blank stated so, even using examples to clarify.
> 
> Of course you want some prey drive but* high prey drive is not necessary for work*.
> 
> But my questions... how successful can a GSD be if it kills the sheep in its care or leaves them to chase and /or kill rabbits or cats?


Toys, tugs, and balls have no use in herding. And you can't tape food to sheep butts, or bait the dog. The dog is either internally driven to work sheep *safely and in cooperation* with the handler, or the dog is not. You cannot bribe, cajole, or lure. If you look beyond basic instinct tests, there are plenty of dogs that don't have the right drives - the genetic attraction to sheep, goats, other livestock. When the going gets tough, boring, repetitive, dull, a fair number of dogs shut down. You _need_ drive. In herding, _there is no reward_ for doing the work, _besides the work itself_.

Good dogs actively working livestock do not care what else is going on in the periphery. They ignore other dogs, other people, chickens, cats, wildlife. It's background noise.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is quoting Carmen from the prey monkey thread:


> ask "If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing?"
> 
> answer -- no problem , a dog with a strong nerve base can switch into the other drives without loosing his confidence and may increase in power .
> the dog without the strong nerve base who is able to over ride , temporarily , through prey excitement will loose that confidence , back down , run off , or go into that zone out of panic where he appears strong (but isn't) and can not be directed or controlled. In essence the prey monkey goes ape .


Nerve Base. Its not the strength of the prey drive, its the nerves. Its not the individual pieces and sequence, its the weak nerves that doesn't allow them to use the drive in a useful to us way whether its herding sheep or tracking/trailing someone for miles. Its the nerve base that allows them to interrupt that sequence and use the drive in the way we want and that's appropriate for the task. Whatever you end up focusing it on, it better be there or there's a good chance the dog quits.

How many times on here do you see people point out restless, high energy, unable to settle isn't drive? That's nerves, unable to cap all that. That's whats not right in the head.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Toys, tugs, and balls have no use in herding. And you can't tape food to sheep butts, or bait the dog. The dog is either internally driven to work sheep *safely and in cooperation* with the handler, or the dog is not. You cannot bribe, cajole, or lure. If you look beyond basic instinct tests, there are plenty of dogs that don't have the right drives - the genetic attraction to sheep, goats, other livestock. When the going gets tough, boring, repetitive, dull, a fair number of dogs shut down. You _need_ drive. In herding, _there is no reward_ for doing the work, _besides the work itself_.
> 
> Good dogs actively working livestock do not care what else is going on in the periphery. They ignore other dogs, other people, chickens, cats, wildlife. It's background noise.


Thank you for the informative post by somebody like yourself that currently trains today's dogs in working sheep. Your insight was greatly appreciated.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> This is quoting Carmen from the prey monkey thread:
> 
> Nerve Base. Its not the strength of the prey drive, its the nerves. Its not the individual pieces and sequence, its the weak nerves that doesn't allow them to use the drive in a useful to us way whether its herding sheep or tracking/trailing someone for miles. Its the nerve base that allows them to interrupt that sequence and use the drive in the way we want and that's appropriate for the task. Whatever you end up focusing it on, it better be there or there's a good chance the dog quits.
> 
> How many times on here do you see people point out restless, high energy, unable to settle isn't drive? That's nerves, unable to cap all that. That's whats not right in the head.


If a dog has a weak nerve base and little to no prey drive, what are the chances of the dog killing other small family pets or those in the community?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> So my dog killed squirrels by shaking them to death, I'm sorry to sound harsh but I see nothing wrong with this behavior. It's normal prey drive in my book. A dog seeing a small animal running away from it whether it be a cat or squirrel triggers their predator instinct, especially a dog like a GSD. The dog does not know that the cat is someones pet. In my opinion it's the owners responsibility to train the dog leave the cat alone.


If that happened here, people would be on speed dial to AC or the police. Seriously.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If that happened here, people would be on speed dial to AC or the police. Seriously.


That is the way it is here. Something like that would not be tolerated.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If a dog has a weak nerve base and little to no prey drive, what are the chances of the dog killing other small family pets or those in the community?


I'm not going to try and assign exact reasons or anything in every imaginable what if like that MAWL. Both my dogs can swim into the middle of baby ducks and only come out with the ball I threw. I've had dogs that want to kill every squirrel in my yard when they couldn't care less about them running all over a park or trail. The ducks are moving, the squirrels are challenging. I don't want my dogs to kill anything, and I don't let them irregardless of whatever their temperament is.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not going to try and assign exact reasons or anything in every imaginable what if like that MAWL. Both my dogs can swim into the middle of baby ducks and only come out with the ball I threw. I've had dogs that want to kill every squirrel in my yard when they couldn't care less about them running all over a park or trail. The ducks are moving, the squirrels are challenging. I don't want my dogs to kill anything, and I don't let them irregardless of whatever their temperament is.


Well spoken. You seem to have brought this back on topic to what was initially posted. It is not so much about what the dog does but the owner's attitude about it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It isn't always black and white. When I was a kid we had a terrier (the shaggy kind)-OE sheepdog mix. She was great with kids, great with our chickens, rabbits, and cats. She slept with our cat on the rug by the front door. They were very cute. But this same dog, when she was young, ran into a swampy area and came back with a huge dead muskrat. And she killed a squirrel once. 

Anyway, what I'm getting at with this dog is we never condoned or encouraged killing, but it happened rarely and this same dog was just wonderful, amazingly great, with our loose chickens, rabbits, and cats. 

A true farm dog.

Plenty of farmers actually want dogs like this, that do not bother livestock, but do take out vermin like rats, woodchucks, and mice. It's far better to use a dog than poison or traps to get rid of those critters,and pretty humane, honestly (a woodchuck could dig a hole leading to a horse or cow breaking her leg). I do not take pleasure in animals being killed, please do not misunderstand me, but some critters simply can not be allowed on farms. 

This is not to say, not at all, that people living in suburbia, or in rural areas, should allow dogs to kill wildlife. I don't. I put up electric fencing for chickens, rather than trying to get rid of coyotes, fisher, lynx. I value wildlife, and love hearing and seeing the fox family that lives on my property.

OK, so my rambling point is--- prey drive isn't so simple. There are many moving parts. 

And, as Steve said more succinctly, it is up to the owner what the dog can and can't do. I'm guessing, and only guessing, that German shepherds (the human kind) wouldn't be unhappy if the dog took out a "stoat" to protect the lambs?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> It isn't always black and white. When I was a kid we had a terrier (the shaggy kind)-OE sheepdog mix. She was great with kids, great with our chickens, rabbits, and cats. She slept with our cat on the rug by the front door. They were very cute. But this same dog, when she was young, ran into a swampy area and came back with a huge dead muskrat. And she killed a squirrel once.
> 
> Anyway, what I'm getting at with this dog is we never condoned or encouraged killing, but it happened rarely and this same dog was just wonderful, amazingly great, with our loose chickens, rabbits, and cats.
> 
> ...


That is pretty much how I interpret Heyne's thought when he said "At schutzhund training there is a new magic word called “prey drive”. It means that the dog is expected to grip the sleeve and with much praise from his handler carry it far off the field!!* You can imagine a herding dog running all day long, having the occasion to discipline a sheep and then dragging it as prey all over the place ─ and then [to add insult to injury] you need an electric shock collar just to make him let go!!! These dogs have something wrong in the head* ─ they have become the victims of politics!!!"

Others might disagree but I don't see where the confusion comes in when he clearly says, IMO, that the sheep the GSD is supposed to herd *and protect* should not need protecting from the GSD from treating it as prey. So I doubt a shepherd would object to a GSD killing a stoat while condemning the GSD that does the same to the sheep.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"In my opinion, there is a great deal that can be learned about the German shepherd dog by understanding its roots and by observing it work under the guidance of a skilled shepherd in the field performing the tasks it was originally bred to do — namely controlling, containing, watching over* and protecting the flocks *on the road and in the pasture."

German Shepherd Herding » The German Shepherd Herding Dog


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> In all the years I have been taking my dogs to parks I know of only one incidence where somebody's dog killed a chipmunk. The owner and witnesses were very upset at the killing. Participating in blood sports is not why most people go to parks. Where I live, most feel that nature in parks are something with which they commune. People certainly don't want their children watching dogs killing animals.
> 
> With dogs I know, regardless of breed, it was always about the chase. The chase ended when the wildlife stopped running. They would poke, prod and even nip a small animal to get it to run again. I am sure it happens more often where an animal gets killed than I know of, but I have never even heard others talking about somebody having a dog in the parks and allowing it to kill wildlife either. I guess people here that know or suspect their dogs may be killers don't let them run loose in parks. Are you sure you were not encouraging your dog's killing behavior?
> 
> ...


The park we went to was pretty secluded. It was one of those hidden gems on the corner of the city where we had about 50 acres all to ourselves. I think she thought that this was HER territory. It is not uncommon for a dog to go after an animal that it thought was impeding on their territory. A neighbors pit bull must have killed 30 cats that wandered into his yard over the years. Yes it was sad as I love cats and have one myself, but in my mind I don't see it as an evil act for the dog to be put down because of. Dogs are territorial, dogs are predators, stuff like this happens.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> The park we went to was pretty secluded. It was one of those hidden gems on the corner of the city where we had about 50 acres all to ourselves. I think she thought that this was HER territory. It is not uncommon for a dog to go after an animal that it thought was impeding on their territory. A neighbors pit bull must have killed 30 cats that wandered into his yard over the years. Yes it was sad as I love cats and have one myself, but in my mind I don't see it as an evil act for the dog to be put down because of. Dogs are territorial, dogs are predators, stuff like this happens.


I never advocated putting the dog down for it. I just merely objected to a "meh" attitude about one's dog killing other peoples' pet was not acceptable.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> It isn't always black and white. When I was a kid we had a terrier (the shaggy kind)-OE sheepdog mix. She was great with kids, great with our chickens, rabbits, and cats. She slept with our cat on the rug by the front door. They were very cute. But this same dog, when she was young, ran into a swampy area and came back with a huge dead muskrat. And she killed a squirrel once.
> 
> Anyway, what I'm getting at with this dog is we never condoned or encouraged killing, but it happened rarely and this same dog was just wonderful, amazingly great, with our loose chickens, rabbits, and cats.
> 
> ...


But a terrier is supposed to kill small animals. It's what they were designed for. 

The hypothetical would the shepherd be happy thing has a lot of variables....

Is this stoat actively stalking the lambs? If the GSD were to kill it would that truly be prey drive or is it protection? 

Is the stoat running along the hillside and minding it's own business and the dog abandons the flock to go take care of the stoat? Leaving the sheep to get into all kinds of trouble?


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