# Holistic vets and dog aggression



## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Little back story.
Rudy was a shelter dog we got him at 10 months, he's now 16 months.
He never knew how to act around other dogs but would bark at them. Recently, he has been very aggressive towards small dogs.
We were told he was being trained for security in the city but "wasn't mean enough"
The trainers think that maybe the small dogs were his bait for training. However, he could control himself to a degree, but now goes defcon4 if he sees a little dog on. Leash. He did attack one and bloodied it to the tune of big bucks ...the trainer now suggests the holistic vet get some hair, nail and saliva samples. To what end? Is anyone familiar with what kind of tests and if it's something I should be investing rather limited funds into? After those results come back, they may suggest dietary changes, etc. along with board and train. Very reputable trainers, seem to truly love their work. I would appreciate your brainstorming. I need to get the best bang for my buck here. Thank you.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Are they suggesting it may be a medical thing causing him to attack little dogs????
If they are.....I would save your money and put your energies into training and managing him around small dogs


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Ask the trainer what they are looking for by requesting the samples. If they can't provide enough information for this request, call and discuss it with your vet. Find out what they could discover by this sample.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Juliem24 said:


> We were told he was being trained for security in the city but "wasn't mean enough"
> The trainers think that maybe the small dogs were his bait for training.


No offence, but this comment alone would make me find another trainer. Taking samples sounds like a bunch of hocus pocus to me - I say save your money. Is the board and train affiliated with these people?


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

My vet, who is a well respected GSD vet suggested these folks. I did go out there to check them out and they seemed very good. Used correction if needed, otherwise constant direction and positive stuff (no treats )
They have a holistic vet working with then kind od a behaviorist/nutritionist/dog whisperer all in one. They run the assays while you are there. Tell you what,,I'll spend the $ and let you know how it goes,


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

You do that.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm..." Holistic vet get some hair, nail and saliva samples." OK..let's call that plan B. 

Can the doggy walk well on a loose leash? If not that needs to be job one. I'll assume no dog parks or dog to dog intros? 

Some links you might find useful are in here post 8:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

I did the 'Who Pets my puppy or Dog" thing for my dog's "people issues" I also used the same approach when passing barking dogs..."move along dog...nothing to see here!"

People issue solved dog reactivity never happened, he never got the chance to focus on a strange dog! He learned to take his cues from me. I don't have a problem with this person/dog...neither do you!

Your dog has attacked another dog so the link to deal with a reactive dog may be needed?

Not as obvious but still should prove valuable are these:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

All it takes is time and patience! 

There's always plan B!


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Chip18, he walks very well on loose leash with a prong collar. In the backyard he is on the longline and heels, sit/down/stay really well. Recall is pretty good, improving daily. We do daily OB work, 2-3 times per day and are NILIF with him. We play, run, tug,play hide and seek till I need a nap! No dog parks. He has been introduced, and is friends with an elderly lab down the block. He just really really goes bonkers with critters smaller than him. His threshold is about 150 ft. He stares and barks at bigger dogs and can be distracted pretty easily, but with the littles he goes nuts and re-focusing is a real challenge. I want to protect and manage him well so that I never have this issue again. I would love to know why he's becoming Godzilla with the littles, if we can anticipate this behavior "spreading" in any direction, I would like to be proactive here. (I understand we have to ramp up the training to avoid "spread"). I'm not looking for an easy answer, rather for a working plan, which would include some idea of why this is happening. I feel like I'm floundering around here. I've had a lot of dogs, and multiple dog households, but I've always felt I've known what they were thinking. This one baffles me a bit.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Twyla said:


> Ask the trainer what they are looking for by requesting the samples. If they can't provide enough information for this request, call and discuss it with your vet. Find out what they could discover by this sample.


Excellent advice, I will do this. Thank you.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Now we start with dangerous dog hearings with the county., painful. We certainly had the best intentions (which do pave the way to ****) 
Boot camp $525
Other dogs vet bills:$1250 (god knows if she'll sue for emotional distress..seems possible after repeatedly screaming that my husband and the dog and the children and grandchildren should ALL DIE for hours at the vets,,,and that their life has been completely ruined. Geez, I feel horrible for this little 14 yr old schnauzer with no teeth!!
I only hope the animal control vet understands that we are trying to do the right thing here, but I'm feeling like we're about to be shunned! When did life get so mean? Not downplaying the predatory aggression Rudy displayed, and not downplaying the consequences, but screaming that we should all die for 4 hours while we are emptying our pockets for poor Oliver? Not to mention the phone calls asking for $$500 and a new collar and the real charge which we paid:$125. Even the vet asked if we wanted to file an order of protection against her, she was so out of control. Blech. All I want is my sweet GSD TO STOP WITH HIS DOG ON DOG AGGRESSION, off to the trainers! Can't wait to find out what his hair/nail analysis will show (and cost for supplements, etc). 
Will keep you all updated as I go down the rabbit hole.......


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm confused......did this all happen since your last post???
You don't need hair and nail tests......you need a good trainer. Your dog may never be good with smaller dogs......you may need to just accept that and manage, train, manage and train some more.
There are many GSD that would kill a small dog in a heartbeat......This won't be fixed by a magic pill......but I know you already know that.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This dog should not be out and about without a basket muzzle until there's significant improvement. Aside from protecting the littles, _your own _dog's life depends on it -- multiple incidents of injuring other dogs can result in and order to euthanize in some locales. It all depends on your area's rules, and how the AC department interprets them.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Thank you to all for the advice, I do appreciate it. 
He has started with an excellent trainer, and yes, a basket muzzle when out with us. His behavior has been excellent on leash, and he will never be off leash again.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Update: Rudy is doing very very well after his week at board and train. He's not fond of the muzzle, I only have it on when we are in areas where there may be other dogs, but he tolerates it. 
We gained some more insight about his previous life, and so have been building scent games for him, also learned about several triggers that seem to have been trained into him. I.e. Don't have anything small in your hand and "show" it to him. He was being video'd and had undo focus on the camera. He dropped the behavior as soon as I spoke. He is much better with commands off leash ( but on a long line), and is doing well with moderate distractions. I have started walking him with a stick so as to fend off dogs that are off leash and approaching him. I have learned lots about tone of voice and body posture, and consistency in words used, also am getting much better at correcting him for not leaving it (hard) instead of a vague correction. 
The animal control hearing went very well. It helped that we had such firm plans in place for his management. 2days later, an animal control officer canvassed the neighborhood and didn't get any complaints. So, he was not declared "dangerous" by the county. Though I know full well that he can never be off leash, will be muzzled for the foreseeable future, and will continue with training when we get our finances together. (Does that ever happen? Lol) meanwhile it's empty fields and long lines, leashes /muzzles on long walks and lots of hide and seek in the house. Sincere thanks to all on this forum who gave suggestions. That was difficult, upsetting, and never should have happened in the first place. It helps to rant a little on the forum, probably kept me from killing my husband (who had him off leash to start with).the husband is also learning a lot from this whole mess.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

It is refreshing to hear of someone that takes responsibility and the follows a solid plan...beat of luck


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Such good new about the hearing! Nothing like, "live and learn!"


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