# Your opinions on this litter potential



## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

Hi there,

We are about to get our first GSD puppy from following litter:

Dam: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/590208.html

Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/616618.html


Sire pictures:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/picturegallery/10906.html

Dam pictures:
http://www.funkenspiel.com/omahae.htm

I would like to get your honest opinions (good and bad) about the potential of the puppies that will come out of this litter since we are planing to get one pup from them.

Thank you.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What are your plans for the pup?


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

Plans are to have a family companion with the slight possibility of Schutzhund sport participation or obedience. Schutzhund participation is not a big defining factor.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Are those west german show lines? I know a lot of the working lines, but have no clue when it comes to show lines.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They are showlines. And both sire & dam are only 2 yrs old...


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

This appears to be a show line breeding. The sire was apparently shown in the 2009 BSZS in Ulm in the Jungend Klasse Rueden (12-18 month males, if I recall correctly). He apparently received the rating U7 (not so good). Anybody have any information on what happened? There is no protection work in this class, so that wasn't it. There is no indication of any working title on the sire.

There is no information on show placement or working titles on the dam.

There is a 4-3 line breeding on VA-1(HR ,SCG) Unix vom Kapellenberg. I know nothing about this dog except what is online. Clearly, somebody valued this dog because pedigreedatabase lists 100 of his progeny. But this thread says that perhaps everything is not as it appears. I dunno...

Unix's koer report: Groß, kräftig, sehr typvoll, trocken und fest, sehr gutes Gepräge, hoher Widerrist, fester Rücken, gute Länge und Lage der Kruppe. Sehr gute Winkelungen der Vor- und Hinterhand, gerade Front, ausgeglichene Brustverhältnisse. Raumgreifende Gänge, kraftvoller Nachschub, freier Vortritt. Sicheres Wesen, Härte, Mut und Kampftrieb ausgeprägt; läßt ab.

My poor attempt at translation: Large, strong, very typey, dry and firm, very good condition, high withers, firm back, good length and lay of the croup. Very good front and rear angulation, straight front, balanced chest proportions. Ground-covering gait, strong rear drive, free front reach. Secure temperament, hardness, courage and fighting drive pronounced; does out.

Translation corrections welcome.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The U7 is not really a placement.(IDT)?......."Ungenugend" is disqualification.(excused).
It can be caused by a couple of things, usually resulting from a "temperament issue or concern"..ie, gun shy, aggression to judge or handler, unsure or skittish..etc..etc.
I think the number 7 behind the U...is just because the dog is the 7th dog listed in the Foto Urma book or BSZS results.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

robinhuerta said:


> The U7 is not really a placement.(IDT)?......."Ungenugend" is disqualification.(excused).
> It can be caused by a couple of things, usually resulting from a "temperament issue or concern"..ie, gun shy, aggression to judge or handler, unsure or skittish..etc..etc.
> I think the number 7 behind the U...is just because the dog is the 7th dog listed in the Foto Urma book or BSZS results.


Yes, "ungenugend" is generally translated into English in SchH circles as "insufficient". So whatever the reason it is unlikely that this dog is a very good breeding prospect.


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

Hi,

Thank you all for your replays.
So, from the existing comments I get that most of your are not fans of sire of this litter for following reasons:
· Sire is not titled
· Has placed insufficient at German sieger show in Ulm for male youth class in 2009.
For the dam I haven't seen any negative reasons except that "she is only two years old".

So far my only personal concern is the "U" at German Sieger show in Ulm. It would be interesting to find out why Kondor got "U".

However, not meaning to defend his "U" or bash anybody in particular, I have to admit that I have heard that in German sieger shows (German National Show) some dogs get favoured over the others, especially if they are coming out of Germany.
I found an interesting link with the results from 2009 German Sieger show in Ulm : http://www.schaeferhund.de/site/fileadmin/pdf/veranstaltungen/bsz_2009/listen/jklr.pdf
As you will notice there were only 1 dog out of 160+ from US and 1 dog from Canada participating in this event. (How many GSD reputable breeders do we have in USA?)
Also looking at geographical proximity of European countries, I noticed that there was not that many dogs coming out of rest of the Europe (except Italy - I). Hence (theoretically) Kondor coming back from Southeast Europe could have been deemed for failure from the get go?

Please note that the last comments are my speculations, and I will definitely try to find out from the breeder why he scored "U".

Are there any other comments that you can think of about these two dogs?


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

I forgot to mention one more thing -The 0 rating stands for Failed Bite work or biting/attacking the judge (instead of the helper)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I wouldn't do it. If I was you I'd much rather go for a universal litter, like a showline crossed with working line.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

vukc,
You're correct in regards to the assumption that some dogs will be favored by certain judges. Their kennel names & handlers, also play a huge part towards their success. These dogs are also campaigned in Germany by participating in a few shows BEFORE the the Sieger Show...(.politics & $$ at it's highest.)
HOWEVER;...the U (insufficient) rating is given, because the dog displayed some form of (perceived) undesired temperament....it has nothing to do in regards to where the dog is from or who owns the dog.
I am not saying anything wrong in regards to the dog....I am simply stating what the "rating" means. I don't know anything about the dog personally.
Best wishes!


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

Mrs.K and Robinhuerta thank you for your inputs.

Robinhuerta, thank you for confirming my assumption. Also thank you for explaining the "u" rating further. I agree with you on this one completely. As I already said I will try to find out from the breeder what was the reason why this dog got "U" at the German Sieger Show in 2009.
I will hope that he will be honest with his answer.

One more question towards all.....what would you think is a fair price for a puppy from this litter in your own opinion? I have my own assumption on pricing but would like to compare it with your thoughts.

Thank you all again.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Vukc
Every breeder has their own sense of "worth" on their puppies....some believe simply because of their kennel name, imported parents, bloodlines, titles...etc... they command a higher price..
There is no financial scale to gauge what is fair or over priced.
I simply say to people looking for puppies...."Know what you want, and be realistic to what you can afford".
An educated buyer has the upperhand (usually).
Higher price does not mean higher quality...lower price does not mean lower quality.
A puppy stemming from strong, sound genetics is most important...everything else is icing on the cake! 
...just my personal opinion...
Robin


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## VTcoach (Jun 28, 2005)

Vukc-
Where are you located?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Based on your plans, you are looking for a sound dog both physically and mentally. If the parents are both then all the show considerations are unimportant. The parents are great looking dogs, how are their temperaments?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

PaddyD said:


> Based on your plans, you are looking for a sound dog both physically and mentally. If the parents are both then all the show considerations are unimportant. The parents are great looking dogs, how are their temperaments?



Unfortunately without some sort of title there's really no way to know. What are you going to do, go meet the dog on its own turf and judge its temperament from there? A lot of weak-nerved dogs are fine in their own territory. Titling is an inexact science and it's full of politics, but it's really the only method we have for objectively measuring a dog's temperament.


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

VTcoach – I am located in Alberta – Canada 

PdaddyD – I was thinking to do the exactly same thing – get out to the kennel and meet all of their dogs, not just the parents….however when I read comment from Emoore I have to admit that I think that he is also right with his way of thinking.


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