# Murphy Belgium Malinois/German Shepherd Mix



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

I recently adopted 1.5 year old Belgium Malinois/German Shepherd Mix. He was adopted through a German Shepherd rescue agency called Char Wills German Shepherd Rescue. 

I feel a bit cat-fished through the agency knowing everything I do now. After he was rescued and brought home to my house in Philadelphia I received a phone call from the rescue telling me he had been released to their care due to the fact he had reacted to two different people on two separate occasions aggressively. I was also notified he was a mix with a Belgium Malinois. I did get the DNA results to confirm this as well. I have always had German Shepherds, I’ve dealt with dog on dog aggressive behavior and worked to amend that kind of behavior; however, I have never dealt with an aggressive behavior towards adults and children. I had introduced him to friends and family, which went smoothly. When I introduced him to anyone younger than 9 or 10, he reacted. The worst situation was when my niece (aged 8) was in the pool swimming and he was at the ledge snarling and barking – this was not him wanting to play. 

I went through two different trainers before I found K9 Basics in New Jersey. They utilize the E-Collar, up until that point he was being trained with a clicker which was not getting me anywhere. The Board and Train Program with K9 Basics is set to last 3 weeks. I dropped him off on a Wednesday and I received a call from them on Sunday saying he was hurting himself at night trying to escape out of the kennel. There were two nights in which he did escape and was found roaming the halls. He is an absolute escape artist (I’m sure you’re not shocked by this). The combination of these breeds leads to an incredibly smart dog. After that, it was decided I would drop him off in the morning and pick him up at night for the length of the training. I worked with the trainers every day to help him work through his anxiety as well as all of his other issues. Upon completion of the program, they have group classes which are included in the price of the B&T. We attend every single one. He has a socialization class to work through his pushiness with other dogs. He does incredible. He is a master at healing, staying on place, and has excelled at almost every single trick in the book. His prey drive can be an issue but again, working on that as well. After speaking with the Head Trainer at K9 Basics, who previously served his time in the Marine Corp’s as a Dog Handler, he came to the conclusion Murphy was being trained as a Personal Protection Dog – improperly. K9 Basics has a course in which dogs are trained and then released as Police K9’s, they utilized some of that equipment and Murphy knew exactly what it was. His previous owner was an 18 year old child who had aspirations of joining the Army. I feel as though when Murphy became too big and was too much to control – they turned him over to Char Wills Recue. 

People who don’t understand these breeds and think it’s funny or cool to train a dog improperly for aggression lead to terrible accidents and people can get hurt. It breaks my heart, honestly. I am an avid hiker. I go camping just about every weekend from Spring into fall. I lead a very active lifestyle, which is why I choose the German Shepherd as a companion because I know they have the drive to keep up. I thought, initially, a Belgium Malinois/German Shepherd Mix would be even better because they DON’T GET TIRED! It’s what I wanted and I was determined to correct Murphy of the bad behavior he was taught at such a young age.

This past Saturday I brought Murphy to my father’s house. My dad was the first person Murphy had met after adopting him. They get along well. Sitting in the kitchen my dad was rough playing with Murphy. Things started to get a bit tense and I advised my father to stop. He didn’t. He pointed in Murphy’s face and the dog went for his arm. Tore three inches of skin off and punctured the muscle of his forearm. He’s seeing a specialist today to have the wound closed.

I feel as though I’ve hit my breaking point. I don’t know what else I could possibly do to help this dog. Sometimes campsites are full of families and dogs and I can’t worry he’s going to lunging at every child that walks by. Trails are often times full of kids – and him seeing them as a threat is not okay. He is muzzle trained with a Baskerville. I need help. Everyone from my vet, the rescue, and K9 Basics are telling me if I surrender him, he’s going to be deemed Unadoptable and that isn’t an option either.

There is potential here for Murphy but I feel as though I’ve hit my wall. Especially after what happened to my father of Saturday.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m sorry you had to go through all that expense, time and anguish. The rescue should take the dog back but you won’t get reimbursed for your expenses. He doesn’t sound like a match for your needs. Rescues often do the best they can, but mistakes happen. I’m not familiar with that one so I won’t comment.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

As for the incident with your father, it is often advised to not rough house with dogs trained in protection work. It is also irresponsible based on the known temperament of the dog. I don’t view this as a board and train fix. If you want to keep this dog, you will need some more knowledge on how to manage these issues. Obviously fit the time being, I wouldn’t have him around kids. You need to find a trainer to work with you and the dogs on a regular basis so that you learn to manage his behavior. What area are you located in?


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Wow, that's quite a story and I'm sorry for your current predicament.

This is a bit nuts and irresponsible though. Did you/your father deem him sufficiently restored now that someone who wasn't even his regular caregiver, thought rough housing with him was advisable?


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

I feel terrible for you and your father and Murphy, as well. Reading your post, I got the sense that you were making small, incremental progress. The trainer you're working with seems to be a good match for Murphy. Do you feel that your skills as a handler have improved under their tutelage? Do you see tangible, positive outcomes (however small) regarding Murphy's behavior? You've put in so much time, energy and money to this point... Prior to the incident with your dad, what kinds of accommodations were you willing to make re: your lifestyle/pastimes having Murphy in your life? i.e. muzzle in public, not being around other dogs, etc.

If I may ask, what's your dad's take on getting bitten?


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> As for the incident with your father, it is often advised to not rough house with dogs trained in protection work. It is also irresponsible based on the known temperament of the dog. I don’t view this as a board and train fix. If you want to keep this dog, you will need some more knowledge on how to manage these issues. Obviously fit the time being, I wouldn’t have him around kids. You need to find a trainer to work with you and the dogs on a regular basis so that you learn to manage his behavior. What area are you located in?


My father has been great with him with no prior issues. I advised him to stop and he assumed it was fine. Well, it wasn't.
Murphy was also aggressive today with my friend who he knows and has even watched him on occasion. I am completely at a loss on what changed in this dog.
I'm in Philadelphia, PA


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Wow, that's quite a story and I'm sorry for your current predicament.
> 
> This is a bit nuts and irresponsible though. Did you/your father deem him sufficiently restored now that someone who wasn't even his regular caregiver, thought rough housing with him was advisable?


They had done it before. He's taken him on walks. There wasn't any prior issues with my dad, the only difference was the pointing of the finger. I'm guessing that was Murphy's trigger.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

chuckd said:


> I feel terrible for you and your father and Murphy, as well. Reading your post, I got the sense that you were making small, incremental progress. The trainer you're working with seems to be a good match for Murphy. Do you feel that your skills as a handler have improved under their tutelage? Do you see tangible, positive outcomes (however small) regarding Murphy's behavior? You've put in so much time, energy and money to this point... Prior to the incident with your dad, what kinds of accommodations were you willing to make re: your lifestyle/pastimes having Murphy in your life? i.e. muzzle in public, not being around other dogs, etc.
> 
> If I may ask, what's your dad's take on getting bitten?


It's funny you should ask, this whole time I've been saying baby steps. That's how it's been with Murphy. If I take him out and we can pass 6 out of 30 people and he doesn't lunge, I consider it progress. He does incredible in group training, most of the time it's with over 30 people. He's been muzzled outside since I got him. Which, I am 100% an advocate for. The muzzle gives a dog like Murphy a life he wouldn't necessarily have. In regards to my father, well, he grabbed my shoulders after he got out of the hospital and told me to not give up on this dog. Which, I don't want to but can this ever be amended? Will he always be like this? That's where I'm torn. The money, I could have spent over 10K if it meant that another dog deemed aggressive wasn't euthanased because of poor training.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m sorry you had to go through all that expense, time and anguish. The rescue should take the dog back but you won’t get reimbursed for your expenses. He doesn’t sound like a match for your needs. Rescues often do the best they can, but mistakes happen. I’m not familiar with that one so I won’t comment.


I was told by the rescue he'd be put down. I don't care about the money at this point, I care about the dog as well as the safety of him and others. Him being Unadoptable is not an option. He's incredible with SAR work as well as agility. This dog can be a great fit I think in K9 work or protection work. I just have no idea on where to go for that.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I doubt it's training. It's a temperament issue. Don't look for triggers or reasons or excuses X and Y is why he behaves this way. You need a better trainer. Someone to give you the tools to train him to the best he can be, and the management tips to keep everyone safe.

How much exercise does he get each day, training? What is your daily routine?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MarissaLeigh425 said:


> I was told by the rescue he'd be put down. I don't care about the money at this point, I care about the dog as well as the safety of him and others. Him being Unadoptable is not an option. He's incredible with SAR work as well as agility. This dog can be a great fit I think in K9 work or protection work. I just have no idea on where to go for that.


If you are willing to work with him, you’ve shown you can reach him and he can behave well for you. But it means a lot of management.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> I doubt it's training. It's a temperament issue. Don't look for triggers or reasons or excuses X and Y is why he behaves this way. You need a better trainer. Someone to give you the tools to train him to the best he can be, and the management tips to keep everyone safe.
> 
> How much exercise does he get each day, training? What is your daily routine?


We run 3 to 4 miles everyday, plus mental training which is SAR, we work on his prey drive. On top of his agility training which we do every night at the railroad tracks by my house. Trust me, I work this dog. His diet is exceptional. These trainers have been amazing. I did reach out to a veterinarian who specializes in Psychological issues with dogs, which I'm waiting on a call back for.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> I doubt it's training. It's a temperament issue. Don't look for triggers or reasons or excuses X and Y is why he behaves this way. You need a better trainer. Someone to give you the tools to train him to the best he can be, and the management tips to keep everyone safe.
> 
> How much exercise does he get each day, training? What is your daily routine?


I should also note, I work for the US Navy and with COVID I will not be back on base until possibly spring of 2021. I have nothing but time.

My fear is management would be a muzzle, 24/7. Can this behavior be modified? Will it eventually subside? Because, I fear if it can't I don't know what will happen to him. I can't put a dog who has so much potential down.


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

MarissaLeigh425 said:


> It's funny you should ask, this whole time I've been saying baby steps. That's how it's been with Murphy. If I take him out and we can pass 6 out of 30 people and he doesn't lunge, I consider it progress. He does incredible in group training, most of the time it's with over 30 people. He's been muzzled outside since I got him. Which, I am 100% an advocate for. The muzzle gives a dog like Murphy a life he wouldn't necessarily have. In regards to my father, well, he grabbed my shoulders after he got out of the hospital and told me to not give up on this dog. Which, I don't want to but can this ever be amended? Will he always be like this? That's where I'm torn. The money, I could have spent over 10K if it meant that another dog deemed aggressive wasn't euthanased because of poor training.


It's a very good thing (huge, really) that your father kind of reaffirmed your commitment to Murphy, despite what happened. It appears that you're at the point of figuring out the hard truths of your situation.

Are you happy with Murphy's training/progress to this point?
Are you happy with the trainer and their training methods/philosophies?

Can you honestly say that Murphy would have gotten to this point without (his current) formal training?
Are you OK with Murphy not being your "ideal, go-anywhere, do-anything" type?

There was a zombie thread here recently, where the owner gave a progress/resolution update, regarding his reactive & aggressive GSD. Short version: found a good trainer who addressed the needs of the dog, owner put in the work consistently over time. Owner now has a dog he can take to the store, no problem.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have consulted on 3 dogs very similar to this. All male GSD x Mal. All "very good dogs" with the exception of occasionally tearing people up. Very smart, good at everything, easily trained in any venue. All 3 were put down after years of continual training and baby steps in the right direction, management and professional training. One owner will never have proper use of her dominant hand again. Another owner lost a family pet to the dog. The third, luckily, only needed a bunch of stitches.

If this dog was on the street under constant control, it would be one thing, but as a family dog, he's a continual liability. 

I may be wrong. I haven't seen the dog.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

That's really interesting, David. Do you think it's the breed mix- or just the breed type(s) and possibly poor breeding decisions that leads to this? Did they share genetics at all? 

If the dog is unpredictable or just goes after a known person at random- I wonder if there's some genetic issue in the mix possibly? Would a police dept even want this- you wouldn't want a dog on a real deployment turning on the handler? 

OP- I'm really sorry. This is a tough situation and so hard to make a judgement on without seeing the dog.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

David Winners said:


> I have consulted on 3 dogs very similar to this. All male GSD x Mal. All "very good dogs" with the exception of occasionally tearing people up. Very smart, good at everything, easily trained in any venue. All 3 were put down after years of continual training and baby steps in the right direction, management and professional training. One owner will never have proper use of her dominant hand again. Another owner lost a family pet to the dog. The third, luckily, only needed a bunch of stitches.
> 
> If this dog was on the street under constant control, it would be one thing, but as a family dog, he's a continual liability.
> 
> I may be wrong. I haven't seen the dog.


This is probably the most realistic assessment of the situation over the internet. This person commitment to the dog is admirable, but at the end of the day, could be costly with collateral damage. I'm the complete opposite. There are plenty of dogs out there that need homes that don't present with issues...maybe I'm a quitter...but I don't need to get hurt or end up losing my house due to a legitimate law suit if my dog hurts the wrong person. 

OP, good luck with the dog. Hope the negative assessments are wrong for your sake.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> That's really interesting, David. Do you think it's the breed mix- or just the breed type(s) and possibly poor breeding decisions that leads to this? Did they share genetics at all?
> 
> If the dog is unpredictable or just goes after a known person at random- I wonder if there's some genetic issue in the mix possibly? Would a police dept even want this- you wouldn't want a dog on a real deployment turning on the handler?
> 
> OP- I'm really sorry. This is a tough situation and so hard to make a judgement on without seeing the dog.


If you know you have a potentially handler aggressive dog, you can work around that with an experienced trainer and handler. The only time this dog would be off leash is during bite work or an actual deployment. No family time. It's an entirely different environment than even the most carefully managed pet.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> That's really interesting, David. Do you think it's the breed mix- or just the breed type(s) and possibly poor breeding decisions that leads to this? Did they share genetics at all?
> 
> If the dog is unpredictable or just goes after a known person at random- I wonder if there's some genetic issue in the mix possibly? Would a police dept even want this- you wouldn't want a dog on a real deployment turning on the handler?
> 
> OP- I'm really sorry. This is a tough situation and so hard to make a judgement on without seeing the dog.


I think it happens with KNPV mal x GSD crosses. Sometimes it doesn't show up until maturity. It's rare that these dogs make it into the civilian population. 2 were purchased from overseas. One was a rescue with unknown origins but had a DNA test. I don't know that the last dog was KNPV but it knew Dutch commands.

I've seen some very good crosses, but they weren't any better than a Mal or Dutchie. I see no need to throw 2 breeds together and see what happens if you are trying to get a good working dog. The very best dogs I've ever seen were not crosses that I am aware of, but you don't get a pedigree when you pull a dog out of the kennels to go train. 

The best dog I've seen in bite work was a 90 pound Dutchie. Best in detection was a 50 pound black lab. Best in tracking was a GSD. Most athletic dog was a tiny female mal that I swear could run 50. 

If you want a science project, get an ant farm. If you want a working dog, get a known identity as much as possible because the fallout can be massive.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I have consulted on 3 dogs very similar to this. All male GSD x Mal. All "very good dogs" with the exception of occasionally tearing people up. Very smart, good at everything, easily trained in any venue. All 3 were put down after years of continual training and baby steps in the right direction, management and professional training. One owner will never have proper use of her dominant hand again. Another owner lost a family pet to the dog. The third, luckily, only needed a bunch of stitches.
> 
> If this dog was on the street under constant control, it would be one thing, but as a family dog, he's a continual liability.
> 
> I may be wrong. I haven't seen the dog.



I fear that's where we are headed. I've never been worried with me and him. There have been times if


David Winners said:


> I think it happens with KNPV mal x GSD crosses. Sometimes it doesn't show up until maturity. It's rare that these dogs make it into the civilian population. 2 were purchased from overseas. One was a rescue with unknown origins but had a DNA test. I don't know that the last dog was KNPV but it knew Dutch commands.
> 
> I've seen some very good crosses, but they weren't any better than a Mal or Dutchie. I see no need to throw 2 breeds together and see what happens if you are trying to get a good working dog. The very best dogs I've ever seen were not crosses that I am aware of, but you don't get a pedigree when you pull a dog out of the kennels to go train.
> 
> ...



I did get his DNA tested. He's 53 Shepherd and 47 Mal. I've spoken to numerous, dedicated people in the community. There's a K9 placement facility in Ohio interested in his potential for drug work as well as K9 protection work. I've also spoken to another K9 training program in NJ interested in him. There's hope in this dog and a very large community of people (including myself) who see what this animal can offer even when the previous owner had no business buying a dog that they couldn't handle. I appreciate everyone on here for reaching out and offering amazing advice. It's definitely helped tremendously. If ya'll want, I'll be more than happy to keep you posted on his potential progress (good or bad the outcome).


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MarissaLeigh425 said:


> I fear that's where we are headed. I've never been worried with me and him. There have been times if
> 
> 
> 
> I did get his DNA tested. He's 53 Shepherd and 47 Mal. I've spoken to numerous, dedicated people in the community. There's a K9 placement facility in Ohio interested in his potential for drug work as well as K9 protection work. I've also spoken to another K9 training program in NJ interested in him. There's hope in this dog and a very large community of people (including myself) who see what this animal can offer even when the previous owner had no business buying a dog that they couldn't handle. I appreciate everyone on here for reaching out and offering amazing advice. It's definitely helped tremendously. If ya'll want, I'll be more than happy to keep you posted on his potential progress (good or bad the outcome).


Please do. You may contact Vohne Liche Kennels in Peru Indiana and see if they are interested.


----------



## MarissaLeigh425 (Nov 23, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Please do. You may contact Vohne Liche Kennels in Peru Indiana and see if they are interested.



I looked them up. Thank you. I doubt, to be honest, they would take him. I'm still hopeful. If all else fails, I won't ever rehome him and will make the decision to have him cross that rainbow bridge. It just angers me people improperly train these animals and leave the mess for someone else to clean up.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sadly, I've heard quite a few stories of malX like this who had serious aggression issues to known people. It comes with the territory of breeding dogs for police and bite work, if the breeding isn't done carefully or the placements aren't done properly.

Genetics aren't perfect- breeding isn't either, but that's where I am as a (occasional) breeder. I waited five years to breed because I was researching breedings, importing and raising pups, and looking through pedigrees selecting for the type of working dog I strive to produce. I select breeding pairs that are social with people and dogs and not handler aggressive. They produce and are out of lines that do police, KNPV, IPO (IGP), PSA, mondio, and Belgian ring, but can also live in the house and visit schools for demos with no liability. Working they are on, not working, they don't see threats everywhere...

Perhaps there is a place for dogs with this type of aggression, and certainly they can and do happen even with the best breedings and intentions.... but there aren't a whole lot of people or departments with the skills to safely manage this dog, and tracking, agility, protection, etc can all be done at top-levels by dogs that aren't handler aggressive and are socially safe...from what I've seen. 

OP- again, none of the genetics or breeding decisions that went into the dog are your choice or fault. I think you simply need to decide if you are up to the challenge of keeping the dog, or if you are going to go all in to find him an appropriate placement- if that is an option.


----------

