# Starting 5 month old and contacts



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Hopefully seasoned agility people can help me out.....

This March, puppy and myself will be starting our first agility class  
This has been something I have wanted to get into for a long time and finally have a great partner! 

At 20 weeks we have a great training foundation. Roxy is trained in voice/hand signals sit, down, touch, watch me, look, "with me" which is our heel, leave it, wait, to your place and stay (we have added distance/duration/distraction-we are at about 1 minute across the room but not out of sight with other dogs/people milling around). She also has some tricks thrown in there like paw, spin and fun with leave it by putting treats on her paws, head, etc just to keep things interesting. We have also worked with a target stick to begin ringing bells at the door. 

Question: Where should I start in our training sessions before class begins, pertaining to agility skills?
Should we work on targeting/contacts for paw awareness? If so, should I start with stool work and begin hind end awareness as well? Any tips would be greatly appreciated


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Yes! Perch work is a great skill to start working on! Use a clicker and shape her to target the stool with her feet. Once she gets that down reward any back paw movement and work on turning in both directions.

Check out the end of MRL's video:






Here's another board member doing perch work:






You've already got a hand target and a target stick, you can also start working with a plastic lid target. Start by holding the target in your palm similar to how you would ask for a nose touch to your hand. Let her offer the touch and click/treat. As she understands the behavior with the plastic lid, work to holding the plastic lid between your thumb and forefinger (to dissociate it from your palm). Next vary the placement of the target so sometimes it is to her left sometimes to the right, above her head, below her head. As she gets better at targeting it below her head you can slowly move the target to the floor, and then once she can target on the floor you can start placing it away from you and sending her to it at short distances. Strong targeting skills will be really useful later!


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks Kristen!
I have seen the first video before and it's great.

As for plastic lid targeting, we have done this for "to your place" first using a large towel and have worked to her targeting just a wash cloth. Right now I can move it all over and ask her for a "to your place" and she will go over to the cloth and sit on it. 
Is that what I am looking for? 

We are going to begin perch work tonight. 

I have to say she is a blast to work with. Her drive is awesome and she really enjoys working


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

thanks for posting this, it helps me too! I'm starting in march too, with my 9 month old


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

'Target' training is different than 'to your place'. With targeting (at least in my classes) we want just a nose touch and then the dog can stand there and still look at me for the treat. It's kind of like teaching a nose/hand touch only with a round plastic target you can put it way 'over there' then send your dog off and away to it!

I just use a plastic lid (like sour cream lid? cream cheese lid?) hold it in one hand so close to the dog they can't hardly do anything but touch it with their nose, then I click treat. Again again again, then move it around again again again, the eventually it gets on the ground and I can send my dogs to it.

Will your dog still tug a tug toy with you and play in public? Good skill to have.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Yup, exactly what MaggieRoseLee says - we use a nose touch as well. You don't want your dog to run to a place and sit, you want them to continue to drive forward with their head low, which is why we teach a nose target. Then we can use it to place at the end of a jump grid, for example, and they'll drive over the jumps to the target and keep their head low because they know the end behavior is a nose touch to the floor.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> 'Target' training is different than 'to your place'. With targeting (at least in my classes) we want just a nose touch and then the dog can stand there and still look at me for the treat. It's kind of like teaching a nose/hand touch only with a round plastic target you can put it way 'over there' then send your dog off and away to it!
> 
> I just use a plastic lid (like sour cream lid? cream cheese lid?) hold it in one hand so close to the dog they can't hardly do anything but touch it with their nose, then I click treat. Again again again, then move it around again again again, the eventually it gets on the ground and I can send my dogs to it.
> 
> Will your dog still tug a tug toy with you and play in public? Good skill to have.


 
Never have done this, well tried & stopped, but lost when it comes to fading the target out & they get it........... like at contacts, not sure how to do this ??????

Also tried the other day putting at the end of the weaves & they want to dart right past the weaves to get the treat on the lid & gave up on this method.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Never have done this, well tried & stopped, but lost when it comes to fading the target out & they get it........... like at contacts, not sure how to do this ??????
> 
> Also tried the other day putting at the end of the weaves & they want to dart right past the weaves to get the treat on the lid & gave up on this method.


I'm going to take some video this week of our step-by-step approach to contact training with the target and will show how to fade it. The one biggest thing is that they really have to understand that nose touch to the target behavior before you fade otherwise you'll probably lose that part when you fade it. I cut my target to smaller and smaller sizes to fade it.

Also, with training a target this way, you should not have to put food on it for the dog to drive to it and inadvertently reward himself. I've seen people use the "bait the target" method and it only works if you or someone else is there to remove the food if the dog doesn't do the prior equipment, which in your case was the weaves. If you back up a bit and get a stronger target behavior, you could start placing after jumps, which might be a bit easier than weaves to start. You treat on the target only AFTER they go over the jumps AND nose touch the target.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TaraM1285 said:


> Also, with training a target this way, you should not have to put food on it for the dog to drive to it and inadvertently reward himself. I've seen people use the "bait the target" method and it only works if you or someone else is there to remove the food if the dog doesn't do the prior equipment, which in your case was the weaves. If you back up a bit and get a stronger target behavior, you could start placing after jumps, which might be a bit easier than weaves to start. You treat on the target only AFTER they go over the jumps AND nose touch the target.


You shouldn't put the treat ON the lid, then you are just rewarding your dog for eating a treat and for MY dogs, they don't need to be rewarded for eating!!! 

*The behavior I want with targeting is my dogs nose touch the target. Then I click that behavior, THEN MY DOG GETS A TREAT!!!!* 

As mentioned, when you put the food ON the target, unless you are there to cover it with your hand if they don't perform the behavior, you aren't going to get what you want. 

As far a fading the target on contact obstacles, I've heard it's best to start cutting the target down sizewise, smaller and smaller and smaller so you still get the nose touch down on the ground but the dog no longer needs the huge visual of the regular sized target to cue to when coming down into the position.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Great info!

She does play tug and we have begun using that as a reward and fading treats out in certain instances. 
Last night we got to the point that she would "perch" with the tug as a reward. 
Today we will work on rewarding the perch behavior for a longer duration. 

Gotcha on the nose targeting. But I do have a question as to where it leads......
I can train nose targeting to a lid, and fading it out in size as that is how I trained "to your place" but where is the leader between targeting and contacts? They contact with paws correct? 
Just want to gain perspective of where this leads to so I know how to best work it in.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> Gotcha on the nose targeting. But I do have a question as to where it leads......
> I can train nose targeting to a lid, and fading it out in size as that is how I trained "to your place" but where is the leader between targeting and contacts? They contact with paws correct?
> Just want to gain perspective of where this leads to so I know how to best work it in.


Great question! The way we do a contact is 2on/2off with the nose target. What this does is it teaches the dog to drive to the end of the obstacle with their head low (not looking at you) to assume the front feet off, back feet on position. Obviously this is not the only way to teach it, but I think that the added nose target provides a crystal clear criteria. So your final behavior is going to be drive to the end of the dogwalk or a frame or teeter, assume the 2on2off position and tap the ground with the nose. You probably won't want to fade the target till you're working full-sized equipment.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Here's some good videos...





 




 
The goal of the visual of a target on the ground when initially training is so our dogs focus with their head down and low when coming down so it's physically less demanding on our dogs body. 

Here you can see it at speed at a competition 



 
Before the target is added... 





 
I love THIS ONE for this time of the year! Doing the training in the house! The dog looks like it was trained with the nose touch but there is no longer a target put down on the floor.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks  

It is definitely clear to me now. I think I will use the word "target" as "touch" already means 'wherever you are I want you to come and touch your nose to my hand'. This has been very useful when redirecting bad behavior such as trash or door darting.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks guys, will watch the videos when I get a moment. Helps to see & understand when you watch. 

Ok, so, NO treats till they drive to the lid & touch? Do you treat then on the lid? I have tried treating just from me, on the floor, throwing forward on floor coming out of weaves, over jumps, we have been all over & wish I would be happy with 1 method & stick to it.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I treat from my hand but right above the lid, so I hold the back of my hand against the lid and have the treat in my palm. 

With her experience, I'd go with whatever MRL's suggestion is over mine...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TaraM1285 said:


> I treat from my hand but right above the lid, so I hold the back of my hand against the lid and have the treat in my palm.
> 
> With her experience, I'd go with whatever MRL's suggestion is over mine...


ACK!!!! I'd recommend listening to all of us and then doing what makes sense to you! It's amazing how different methods can get the same results and we have alot of good members here with really great information! 

What I think is important, is that the dog nose targeting the lid is the behavior I want and that earns the click.

THEN the reward comes. Whether from our hand above the target, or the dog running to me cause I'm a bit away, or even if I then drop the treat on the target AFTER the click. Or even if the click means I toss the Cuz or we play tug...


To muddy the waters a bit as far as the weaves and targeting, is that I don't!!!! Cause I want them drivey and moving, for them to stop and nose touch the lid isn't my goal. I also "throwing forward on floor coming out of weaves" when I can (not so good on grass  ) again trying to kind of bowl the treat out and away as they exit because it's a little faster for them to swallow the treat and come back for more.

I think sometimes we get more hung up on being worried about confusing our dogs than our dogs are confused! So it's ok to use different methods, a target for the contacts, sometimes a treat from our hand (handler focus), sometimes a treat on the ground (more equipment focused), adding a toy, adding tug, sometimes using a clicker and/or using a verbal marker. As long as the method and what we are trying to teach is 'consistant' and we keep working on our timing to help with the dogs understanding, they will learn. (despite us  )


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> ACK!!!! I'd recommend listening to all of us and then doing what makes sense to you! It's amazing how different methods can get the same results and we have alot of good members here with really great information!


Very nicely put  

Everyone has their own way for sure. I often trade dogs with other training friends just to get them working for someone else. 

My main goal is to have a little fun, for myself and my dogs. And the extra exercise doesn't hurt either of us


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Oh geez, ok, but man oh man do I feel confused & like I'm confusing the heck out of the dogs.................   

I have bounced around & that's why I feel they don't know 100%. I find saying wait as they are near the contact slows them & then I click/treat when on the yellow, not 2o2o + I think they are watching for me to slow & that's why they slow, more of my body moment & not truly knowing about hitting the contact. I also find, this seems to slow them down instead of screaming across the walk, ect, prob not good.  IDK


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

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MaggieRoseLee said:


> ACK!!!! I'd recommend listening to all of us and then doing what makes sense to you! It's amazing how different methods can get the same results and we have alot of good members here with really great information! )


:blush: Ok, ok! I won't discount my own methods (or anyone else's) ever again!  I respect your opinion and expertise, MRL, just saying!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I am working on a few videos showing our foundation work and progression in contacts training. The first thing I worked on with Tara was perch work, so here is the first video. Next up will be target training (already took the video just need to edit and add comments).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Oh geez, ok, but man oh man do I feel confused & like I'm confusing the heck out of the dogs.................
> 
> I have bounced around & that's why I feel they don't know 100%. I find saying wait as they are near the contact slows them & then I click/treat when on the yellow, not 2o2o + I think they are watching for me to slow & that's why they slow, more of my body moment & not truly knowing about hitting the contact. I also find, this seems to slow them down instead of screaming across the walk, ect, prob not good.  IDK


You do have to stop and figure out your specific criteria for an obstacle. THAT eventually needs to be perfectly clear to you. What you want the end product to look like. Then you need to figure out the best way to do it. Once you decide, then you need to probably stick to that methodology. Contacts obstacles in particular can get confusing to our pups if we, as handlers, aren't sure what we want. 

As far as different methods on different equipment, the dogs don't get confused when I only use a plastic target on the contacts but not when weaving.... they just 'work' for what I am rewarding, if there's no target then they will figure it out (heck, what makes the clicker go!). I never click the tunnel anymore but they always hit that!

I'm lucky cause my instructor doesn't care how we want our contacts in the end (running or 2on/2off) but she goes nutso if we decide and then flipflop back and forth with our criteria. So once we decide, that's the method she helps us with. 

Fact is, one of the many reasons I like the 2on/2off is it's perfectly clear TO ME. So that way I feel I can make it perfectly clear to my girls. We run to the end and all treats are on the ground while they 'assume the position'. 

And it's not to late to really decide and then commit to something, but then you need to stick with it so your dog understands. Set them up to succeed, backchain if you need to....happy happy fun fun fun!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TaraM1285 said:


> I am working on a few videos showing our foundation work and progression in contacts training. The first thing I worked on with Tara was perch work, so here is the first video. Next up will be target training (already took the video just need to edit and add comments).


Have to say I love how your cat helps during training the same as mine!! :wild: And your dog is beautiful!

And you do a wonderful job of being patient until she figured it out (when she offered 50 different things at the start)... BIG problem with me, the patience thing...

I think it's a good idea to toss the treat away and on the ground when you say 'Free'. That way they WANT to get off and then equally want to come back to engage (I have to do the same to get my girls off the perch).

I was impressed at her ability to 'sit' on that small ice chest!

The entire video was really well done! Can't wait to see the next one! 

BTW Tara, can you upload the video and make it a part of the permanent sticky under Contact Training here in the Agility Section? That way it'll stay up top to help everyone.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Have to say I love how your cat helps during training the same as mine!! :wild: And your dog is beautiful!


:rofl: Yes, Suli loves to "help." I had to teach her a clicker trick to give her something to do when Tara is training otherwise she bats at my treat bag, hands and whatever else she can get to the whole time!! She knows "high five" and I should really teach her a target - she's definitely got the food drive for it! 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> And you do a wonderful job of being patient until she figured it out (when she offered 50 different things at the start)... BIG problem with me, the patience thing...


Tara taught me patience. I have none on my own. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think it's a good idea to toss the treat away and on the ground when you say 'Free'. That way they WANT to get off and then equally want to come back to engage (I have to do the same to get my girls off the perch).


Yup, you're right, I need to reinforce the release more again. We get a little one-sided focusing on the the control behaviors and I forget that a strong release is just as important!



MaggieRoseLee said:


> The entire video was really well done! Can't wait to see the next one!
> 
> BTW Tara, can you upload the video and make it a part of the permanent sticky under Contact Training here in the Agility Section? That way it'll stay up top to help everyone.


Thank you!!! Yes, absolutely I'll add the video to the sticky.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You do have to stop and figure out your specific criteria for an obstacle. THAT eventually needs to be perfectly clear to you. What you want the end product to look like. Then you need to figure out the best way to do it. Once you decide, then you need to probably stick to that methodology. Contacts obstacles in particular can get confusing to our pups if we, as handlers, aren't sure what we want.
> 
> ...
> 
> And it's not to late to really decide and then commit to something, but then you need to stick with it so your dog understands. Set them up to succeed, backchain if you need to....happy happy fun fun fun!


:thumbup: Knowing your criteria BEFORE you train a behavior is so important, it bears repeating. And we can always go back and work foundation skills.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Very nice video! 

I love how they "get it" then take a step back before they REALLY get it  

We have worked targeting in to our training sessions yesterday to break up the perch training. She is doing well but being only 5 months old gets bored rather quickly. 
I started throwing a ball for reward and to keep her going which is working. 

My 1.5 yr old Shepherd male was watching us like we are nuts  
(He is on lay-up as he is having GI issues and not feeling well. But he walked over and nosed our box away then looked up at me like 'hey Mom, is that what you want?!') 

I have to say, I am having a blast already and we haven't even started any equipment yet!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Here's Tara targeting...






Next video will be board work.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TaraM1285 Loved the targeting video too. Please make sure you continue to put these up on the sticky for Contact training!

Your commentary that's written on the videos is also really helpful. As it your CAT!!!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with MRL. Great video, Tara!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks!


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Your video's are very well put together! 

We have been practicing targeting and are at the point of me being able to move all around the floor. 

Can't wait for board work. 

Question....would like to move to one jump work. Should I start just the jump and then add the target in? Is this what is considered a "sequence'?


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I would do one jump work separately from the targeting, but check out MRL's early videos of Glory B doing one jump work in their class. Your pup is still a baby so I don't know how much or how high the jump can be at this age. I think you will want to start very low - maybe even just the bar on the ground. I hope MRL or someone else who did early puppy jumping sees this and can help out with that.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but sequencing usually refers to doing multiple obstacles in a row, so a jump with a target wouldn't really be a sequence because you'd only be working on the one obstacle (the jump).


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Check out starting at 5:42 in this video:


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Another great video! Keep them coming  

Starting very low was what I was thinking. Don't want to put any undue stress on her developing bones. (

As a side note: Any agility people with females wait on spaying after 2nd heat? I have been researching and it looks like waiting is trading cancer possibilities with better bone development. In agility, bone development is crucial so we are tossing around waiting. Would love opinions.)

I think we will add one jump into our training routine for a little fun.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I waited until after Bretta's second heat, for Glory B I'm going to wait out one more cycle then get it done....


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I finally got around to doing the board work video. I posted it under the contacts sticky.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Awesome! Heading to check it out  

Has anyone done crate work in preparation for trials?
I want my female to stay calm when crated with all the excitement, not banging and screaming. So I have begun crating her during other classes and rewarding quiet behavior. Last night she fell asleep  

I want her to be excited but I want that excitement to start when the crate door is opened.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Crate games! Crate Games and the Question of Value | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Crate games! Crate Games and the Question of Value | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


:thumbup: Yup! Crate games!! Look for more videos on youtube, I think there's a whole bunch showing different aspects of crate games.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks! I have used these crate games and really like them. 

I guess I should have worded my question a little better.....or actually asked the question to begin with now that I am reading it again!
So here it is correctly: 

How long are your dogs normally crated during an agility trial and whats the norm? Most dogs quiet and used to the hussle bussle? Seasoned agility people take their pups not running along to get them used to the scene?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

valreegrl said:


> So here it is correctly:
> 
> How long are your dogs normally crated during an agility trial and whats the norm? Most dogs quiet and used to the hussle bussle? Seasoned agility people take their pups not running along to get them used to the scene?


Yup, we all bring them and everyone is wonderful helping to socialize them! The AKC RULE is pups are officially allowed until 6 months (supposed to make sure people are attending just to sell puppies) so if you don't know who you are talking to..........if they ask the age it's 'Six Months!'. 

I try to get them out every 3 hours or so, but sometimes just for a quick pee/poo. Usually only one big long adventure like on the following video for the day. Here's Glory at an indoor trial at 14 weeks (and I had brought her weeks earlier, just no camera...)


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