# Raw prey model- really???



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

A friend of mine has Rotties and on a Rottie blog someone was talking about feeding 'raw prey model' which means this individual raises rabbits and gives them to her dogs alive so they have the experience of chasing, killing and eating their food. And when someone asked if she did that every meal, she responded "EVERY FREAKIN TIME." Do people really do this? Seems a bit extreme to me.


----------



## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

I do something like that but I feed tiny neighborhood children to my dog. Pfffffffffft yeah that's extreme, the lady is a nut case.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Gross...do you realize how many rabbits she'd have to have in order to feed a dog that size? That is just gross on many different levels.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stosh said:


> individual raises rabbits and gives them to her dogs alive so they have the experience of chasing, killing and eating their food. And when someone asked if she did that every meal, she responded "EVERY FREAKIN TIME." Do people really do this? Seems a bit extreme to me.


I wouldn't trust the dog around any small animal or human baby. That's just nuts.


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Have you heard of the "Franken-Prey" model? 

Frankenprey Rawfeeding

The name weirds me out, and I feed raw!


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

BTW, not everyone that uses the prey model gives live animals. Most of the people I know who refer to their raw feeding as the "prey model" give already dead, whole carcasses.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

DeeMcB said:


> BTW, not everyone that uses the prey model gives live animals. Most of the people I know who refer to their raw feeding as the "prey model" give already dead, whole carcasses.


OR they create whole carcasses using bits and pieces of different protein sources to "make an whole prey animal" that the dog/cat would catch in the wild.

I feed my cats using the prey model way of raw. They are given (usually) whole prey animals such as chicks, baby rabbits, phesant, etc.. I sometimes cut those in half and give other sources of protein such as ground beef, ground turkey, etc. though.

I do not feed my dog this way and I do not feed live animals. The only "live animals" they get are flies they catch in the summer on my screen...lol.

My dog is fed raw but I measure out his meals using the 50%RBM, 45%MM, 5%OM method.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I honestly have never heard of such a thing. I don't mind the occasional squirrel, rabbit, mouse etc that mine kill but geez that sounds nuts.


----------



## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Stosh said:


> A friend of mine has Rotties and on a Rottie blog someone was talking about feeding 'raw prey model' which means this individual raises rabbits and gives them to her dogs alive so they have the experience of chasing, killing and eating their food. And when someone asked if she did that every meal, she responded "EVERY FREAKIN TIME." Do people really do this? Seems a bit extreme to me.


Wow. Not something I would want to condition my dog for, especially if I live in a rural area where livestock are raised, and I do.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I've heard of a number of people who raise small animals for consumption by their dogs. Mostly Rabbits and Chickens. The animals are killed and cleaned first (No feathers!) and then fed to the dogs.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Like someone already said "I wouldn't trust that dog around children or other people"


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I can see raising animals to feed to the dogs, but tossing them in live...gives me the creeps.


----------



## Glacier (Feb 25, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I wouldn't trust the dog around any small animal or human baby. That's just nuts.


I thought animal aggression doesn't translate into human aggression, has some new research popped up I'm not aware of?


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

They don't even do that with captive tigers and lions, or cheetahs.


----------



## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

I feed prey model raw, including whole rabbit, and let me assure that NOTHING my dogs get is ever offered alive.

Dogs, on the general whole, are very sloppy and inefficient killers. Certain sighthound breeds aside (who have basically been bred for this from day one) have largely not been cultivated to be "good" at taking down live prey. Again, they are sloppy, and generally, the target is going to suffer quite a bit before finally being killed and eaten.

Its because of this that I find such a practice to be _extremely_ cruel to the feeder animal.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> Like someone already said "I wouldn't trust that dog around children or other people"


So question for you...

Dogs that lure course, which relies on the dogs natural prey instinct to chase, catch and "kill" would be considered a liability in your eyes as well?

I don't see how feeding live animals would translate to humans or other members of the canine world? 

My dog is NUTSO for squirrels and rabbits (live) would kill one for sure if he was allowed to catch them and I have no issues letting him run around with his 4lbs Chi friend or live in my house with my cats (as well as fosters).

Just don't understand when people (not just you, people in general) make comments like this. They are ANIMALS first and foremost, or are we all forgetting that?


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

My dog has HIGH prey drive. I mean so high he thinks shadows and bushes in the dark are prey. Will bark at them and ready to go after them. SAME Thing with kids. He sees a child running and wants to go after them. He obviously sees them as prey so NO, I would not trust him around small children. Are we forgetting that a dog can also see a child as prey if they are not socialized around them? Who's to say this woman has socialized her dog around children. Good for her if she has!


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Oh, and yes, obviously my dog was not socialized around children as a pup otherwise he would probably like kids. The owner even told me Apollo, the one in my avatar pic, was never around kids so he didn't know how he would behave around them. 

My pup Riley though, he loves everyone that will give him a good rub! lol


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> My dog has HIGH prey drive. I mean so high he thinks shadows and bushes in the dark are prey. Will bark at them and ready to go after them. SAME Thing with kids. He sees a child running and wants to go after them. He obviously sees them as prey so NO, I would not trust him around small children. Are we forgetting that a dog can also see a child as prey if they are not socialized around them? Who's to say this woman has socialized her dog around children. Good for her if she has!


I think most GSD's on this board would fall into the category of "high prey drive" amoung other atributes but what you are saying with your dog seems like a training issue.

I am not forgetting that a dog can see a child, adult, bike, cat, squirrel, leaf, bag blowing in the wind, sock on a rope, ball on a rope, tug as prey... it's about teaching your dog what is appropriate and what is "free game".

Socializing your dog with EVERYTHING under the sun is key and playing games that teach impulse control and focus (on the handler) is important/vital.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree with Elizabeth regarding my dogs killing small mammals that run around our property- I have no problem with them doing that- and I don't think that translates into aggression; however, the idea of dropping live animals into a pen [or however she does it] for their dinner just seems ghastly and rather unnecessary.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> Oh, and yes, obviously my dog was not socialized around children as a pup otherwise he would probably like kids. The owner even told me Apollo, the one in my avatar pic, was never around kids so he didn't know how he would behave around them.
> 
> My pup Riley though, he loves everyone that will give him a good rub! lol


Seems like Apollo needs some socializing with calm, dog knowledgable kids. It sounds more of a fear based issue than a "he wasn't around kis so he didn't know how he would behave around them" kind of thing. Stark is hardly ever around kids and WAS afraid of them (would bark at them and become nervous if they were in his space) but with continued socialization, exposure coupled with positive interactions and experiences he is now much better, I would even consider him trustworthy with small children. It takes work (LOTS) but it can be done.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stosh said:


> I agree with Elizabeth regarding my dogs killing small mammals that run around our property- I have no problem with them doing that- and I don't think that translates into aggression; however, the idea of dropping live animals into a pen [or however she does it] for their dinner just seems ghastly and rather unnecessary.


That coupled with what Lex said in her post is how I feel as well. Which is why I do not feed this way.


----------



## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

Some people choose to do the same with snakes & certain fish. IMO, it says something about the owner who *wants* to see a living creature killed on a regular basis. 

I used to work at a fish store. A guy who had piranhas would often come in to buy fancy long-fined goldfish to feed his prianhas - not feeders. Those poor fish would die a slow death. Sick.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I would love to socialize Apollo around children but I don't know how to go about doing that when every time he sees one he barks and wants to run after them. How do you suggest doing that because if I were a parent I wouldn't want a barking dog around my kid.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> I would love to socialize Apollo around children but I don't know how to go about doing that when every time he sees one he barks and wants to run after them. How do you suggest doing that because if I were a parent I wouldn't want a barking dog around my kid.


Maybe start a new thread with this issue? So we are not going totally off topic.

I would be happy to explain what I did with Stark. I have a few threads on this site as well as the "other site" regarding this issue. Maybe do a search under my name for those threads? Lots and lots of great informtation.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Ok, back to that Raw Model. Yes, I do not agree with feeding live animals to dogs. 

Sorry for getting off topic.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

A dog that catches, kills and eats live prey is not *necessarily* a danger to people, children or domesticated animals.

Back when I raised rabbits, chickens and ducks the dog knew that *MY* animals were not to be harmed but they sure could go after the wild rabbits, birds and even the occasional stray cat that was dumb enough to wander into our yard.

I have pictures of my gang in with the chickens and ducks. I have pictures of Riggs with baby bunnies and you can SEE in his expression that eh would love to eat them - but he doesn't.

Heck - herding is nothing but controlled prey drive.

As for reptile owners that insist on feeding live prey - many reptiles will not eat dead prey. Snakes are NOT scavengers. In their natural habitat they would not eat a carcass they came across - where canines and felines would. So some MUST be fed live prey.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Veronica said:


> Some people choose to do the same with snakes & certain fish. *IMO, it says something about the owner who *wants* to see a living creature killed on a regular basis*.
> 
> I used to work at a fish store. A guy who had piranhas would often come in to buy fancy long-fined goldfish to feed his prianhas - not feeders. Those poor fish would die a slow death. *Sick*.


Just highlighting the point in your post that I want to comment on.

You do realize that some of us want to raise our dogs as naturally as possible right? Does this mean we enjoy seeing animals killed on a regular basis? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I love all animals and very much enjoy all living things - big or small. Do I like death, no!

I do however understand that dogs (and cats) are animals and understand that they did not have nicely wrapped bags of kibble years and years ago. 

I totally believe that this method (raw specifically) of feeding is healthier for not only their physcial bodies but their mental well being as well. Being able to use those natural instincts and what they were born with (teeth to rip, shred, crunch meat and bones, digestive system to process raw meat, jaws powerful enough to break down the bone/meat, etc.) I believe will only aid in their overall health. 

What is that saying about me?

What I find "sick" is people who think that these dogs/cats were always these sweet little creatures that lay on the end of their beds. They are animals first! Let's not forget that for the sake of our "pets" well being.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> A dog that catches, kills and eats live prey is not *necessarily* a danger to people, children or domesticated animals.
> 
> Back when I raised rabbits, chickens and ducks the dog knew that *MY* animals were not to be harmed but they sure could go after the wild rabbits, birds and even the occasional stray cat that was dumb enough to wander into our yard.
> 
> ...


I was just searching for your photo's of Riggs Lauri!

Nice to see you again stranger!


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Veronica is probably right- this woman must enjoy seeing her dogs kill things and must love the attention she gets. Otherwise she would just feed the carcass.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> You do realize that some of us want to raise our dogs as naturally as possible right? Does this mean we enjoy seeing animals killed on a regular basis? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I love all animals and very much enjoy all living things - big or small. Do I like death, no!
> 
> I do however understand that dogs (and cats) are animals and understand that they did not have nicely wrapped bags of kibble years and years ago.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that they are animals first. And I am all for raw feeding, and feeding where the dog needs to rip and crunch, raising them as naturally as possible, letting them use natural instincts.

Is letting a dog chase a rabbit and kill it letting him use his natural instincts? Probably. 
Is it beneficial for him psychologically? Possibly. I really don't know how you would go about validating that though, but I guess it's possible.

I plan on raising my dog as naturally as possible. For me, watching cute little bunnies die every day is just not possible if I want to keep my sanity. That might just mean I have a weak stomach, I don't know. I will do as much naturally as I can, but that would cross the line into "not going to happen" for me


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Klamari said:


> I agree with you that they are animals first. And I am all for raw feeding, and feeding where the dog needs to rip and crunch, raising them as naturally as possible, letting them use natural instincts.
> 
> Is letting a dog chase a rabbit and kill it letting him use his natural instincts? Probably.
> Is it beneficial for him psychologically? Possibly. I really don't know how you would go about validating that though, but I guess it's possible.
> ...


Which is why I do not allow it my home either.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stosh said:


> Veronica is probably right- this woman must enjoy seeing her dogs kill things and must love the attention she gets. Otherwise she would just feed the carcass.


Or she believes that she is allowing the dog to live as naturally as possible by 'hunting, chasing and killing it's own food'. 

Would love to know her reasoning behing this choice though.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

The diet itself is fine, I think (I see a lot of people feeding this kind of prey model to ferrets and cats - whole prey/frankenprey), but to let the dogs kill them every time...? I would be afraid that eventually the rabbits would bite or scratch the dogs. Depending on the size of the rabbits, they can do some pretty decent damage if they get the right spot. 

I don't think that feeding JUST rabbit would be sufficient, though. I think they'd need different protein sources, but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Well you're probably right, but from what my friend says, her posts are 'in your face'- I can't imagine her thinking it's detrimental in any way.


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> A friend of mine has Rotties and on a Rottie blog someone was talking about feeding 'raw prey model' which means this individual raises rabbits and gives them to her dogs alive so they have the experience of chasing, killing and eating their food. And when someone asked if she did that every meal, she responded "EVERY FREAKIN TIME." Do people really do this? Seems a bit extreme to me.


No offense, but I think the person who is feeding this diet is a moron. She has absolutely no idea what a "prey model raw diet" actually is. Nor does she have any idea whatsoever how to properly feed a balanced raw diet. Feeding nothing but rabbits, alive or otherwise, does not constitute a balanced, healthy raw diet by any stretch of the imagination.

I feel sorry for her dogs.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> No offense, but your "friend" is an idiot.
> 
> She has absolutely no idea what a "prey model raw diet" actually is. Nor does she have any idea whatsoever how to properly feed a balanced raw diet. Feeding nothing but rabbits, alive or otherwise, does not constitute a balanced, healthy raw diet by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> I feel sorry for her dogs.


I don't believe it is her friend that is doing this. 

Her friend belongs to a forum for Rottie's where one of the other members is feeding this way.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh it's not my friend!- she just has a Rottweiler and was looking at a Rottie blog and saw this woman's postings about how she feeds live prey. My friend asked me if any gsd owners do this or is it just a Rottie owner thing. That's why I was asking, I've never heard of it before. I think the woman feeds other foods as well, she just thinks her dogs need to kill something at every meal. I was just so surprised, I had to ask everybody here. I have to admit, I'm happy that no one has said they do it too!


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I don't believe it is her friend that is doing this.


I realized that, which is why I went back and corrected it.


----------



## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> You do realize that some of us want to raise our dogs as naturally as possible right? Does this mean we enjoy seeing animals killed on a regular basis? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I love all animals and very much enjoy all living things - big or small. Do I like death, no!
> 
> I do however understand that dogs (and cats) are animals and understand that they did not have nicely wrapped bags of kibble years and years ago.
> 
> ...


I believe raw is probably the best way to go. But live raw? That I have a problem with. Not talking the occasional wild caught animal, but live animals specifically raised to feed her dogs. I'm surprised animal control or the likes haven't been called in.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Veronica said:


> I believe raw is probably the best way to go. But live raw? That I have a problem with. Not talking the occasional wild caught animal, but live animals specifically raised to feed her dogs. I'm surprised animal control or the likes haven't been called in.


We raise live animals to feed ourselves. As mentioned before, people raise mice to feed live to their snakes.

I'm NOT saying I would do what this woman says she does, but it really doesn't have anything to do with animal cruelty. It's more just personal preference.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I can understand a domesticated dog catching small game in the wild and killing it. I don't think all dogs would eat it as well, but it wouldnt' surprise me if they did. I can even follow the thought path of raising your own small game for your dog to feed a natural diet, wanting to make sure it's eating healthy - food without hormones etc. But like a canned hunt - there is no way a dog can utilize it's natural hunting skills by chasing a screaming rabbit around in circles in your back yard. Unless of course she releases it first into the woods and gives it till the count of 10. Therefore the reasoning behind letting your dog kill live prey that you've raised totally escapes me. Unless you enjoy watching that sort of thing.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I can understand a domesticated dog catching small game in the wild and killing it. I don't think all dogs would eat it as well, but it wouldnt' surprise me if they did. I can even follow the thought path of raising your own small game for your dog to feed a natural diet, wanting to make sure it's eating healthy - food without hormones etc. But like a canned hunt - there is no way a dog can utilize it's natural hunting skills by chasing a screaming rabbit around in circles in your back yard. Unless of course she releases it first into the woods and gives it till the count of 10. Therefore the reasoning behind letting your dog kill live prey that you've raised totally escapes me. Unless you enjoy watching that sort of thing.





Klamari said:


> Is letting a dog chase a rabbit and kill it letting him use his natural instincts? Probably.
> Is it beneficial for him psychologically? *Possibly*. I really don't know how you would go about validating that though, but I guess it's possible.
> 
> I plan on raising my dog as naturally as possible. For me, watching cute little bunnies die every day is just not possible if I want to keep my sanity. That might just mean I have a weak stomach, I don't know. I will do as much naturally as I can, but *that would cross the line into "not going to happen" for me*


I said letting a dog chase and kill a rabbit MIGHT be letting him use his natural instincts. As in, it is POSSIBLE that the simple act of chasing would be beneficial psychologically, as might the simple act of tearing and crunching their food MIGHT be beneficial. Not that I personally believe she is correct. And if you will read what I said above, I would NOT enjoy that kind of thing, and I'm not going to do that, ever.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Dogs that lure course, which relies on the dogs natural prey instinct to chase, catch and "kill" would be considered a liability in your eyes as well?
> 
> Just don't understand when people (not just you, people in general) make comments like this. They are ANIMALS first and foremost, or are we all forgetting that?


There's a difference between training a dog to use it's natural prey drive for sport, and *making a dog kill prey to survive*. I'm sorry, I think the person is wrong. There's no logical reason to do this except to make themselves look "cool". Sorry I don't think it's cool, I think it's irresponsible.

Yes they're animals first but they're domesticated animals, not wild animals. I just don't get it. People bring wild animals like lion cubs and monkeys into their homes and try to domesticate them, and they bring dogs into their homes and try to make them wild.  

Feeding raw is entirely different because the dog still gets the food from it's humans they don't have to kill to survive. 



> I thought animal aggression doesn't translate into human aggression, has some new research popped up I'm not aware of?


No idea, but would you be willing to test the theory with your newborn baby or pet rabbit and the hungry Rottie?


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

It occurs to me that we are debating the choices of someone who is on a board with a friend of someone who is on this board. We don't have enough information to draw any conclusions about their intent or motivation.

I can say that this type of feeding does not appeal to me. And I understand that other people may have viewpoints different from my own that have led them to this as a valid choice for them.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I was just searching for your photo's of Riggs Lauri!
> 
> Nice to see you again stranger!


Yeah, life has been busy lately!!

Here's some examples ...

Remi, eating his raw chicken, next to Roscoe the chicken, eating his chicken food:











Riggs with baby Roscoe on his nose:











Riggs with a litter of my meat rabbit babies. Look at his face - he's LOVE to gulp a few down but I told him to STAY and STAY he does:











The Gang (plus a foster Lab) with The Flock:











Remi greeting a new baby duck:











And yes, every one of these dogs at some point in their lives chased down, caught, killed and ate a wild rabbit.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

LMAO Lauri that is just so wrong. The picture of Riggs with roscoe on his nose looks like when you put a biscuit on their nose and they are waiting to chomp it. Great training but soooo cruel lol.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Klamari said:


> I said letting a dog chase and kill a rabbit MIGHT be letting him use his natural instincts. As in, it is POSSIBLE that the simple act of chasing would be beneficial psychologically, as might the simple act of tearing and crunching their food MIGHT be beneficial. Not that I personally believe she is correct. And if you will read what I said above, I would NOT enjoy that kind of thing, and I'm not going to do that, ever.


 
I'm sorry - my post was not geared towards you in any way at all. I was trying to get my head around the thought process of what the original woman (the OP mentioned) thinks when she feeds live raw. I was just kind of thinking out loud.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I'm sorry - my post was not geared towards you in any way at all. I was trying to get my head around the thought process of what the original woman (the OP mentioned) thinks when she feeds live raw. I was just kind of thinking out loud.


Oh sorry, didn't mean to jump you. Thought is was directed at my post above yours. My bad, feel free to think out loud


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I LOVE the pics you posted Lauri!


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats just disturbing. I wouldnt never do something like that even if i did feed raw.


----------

