# Looney tunes..read on



## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Hi
I have a 2 year old Belgian Malinois, explosives. I am wondering if my issue is aggression or just a dog being a dog. I who work in K-9 and recently I have noticed my dog just goes bonkers when I come in to the kennel area or if he sees the other trucks that he knows has dogs in them. At home, in the car ANYWHERE else, at the park, out of the car on lead he is fine. He obeys me etc. But when he is in the back of the cruiser, he absolutely loses it with barking, pawing at everything, and ripping into whatever he can. If I open the door and tell him to sit, he does so calmly and gets petted. As soon as I shut the door, he goes nutso. I know the Malinois temperment is a bit different than a GSD but Im hoping for a little insight. These dogs we work with are kennel dogs and have had little socialization, so no one knows if they are fighters or not. I have no idea what to do to get him to calm down. Let me know if yo need more info. Not sure if i shoulda posted this in aggression board.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't think its aggression 
2 is still a puppy and sounds friendly 
I don't know much about Mals but it sounds to me as a pup being a pup. and loves attention


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Yeah he definitly still has a lot of puppy in him and that is a frequent comment. However, if it something I can address now then I would like to. I dont want it to be something that I have to deal with for the next 6+ years.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It's not all that unusual for a dog, in his transport vehicle, to appear aggressive. It can be controlled if you want to do that, it's just a matter of reinforceing the "out" command. Most of the time though, handlers just ignore it. That is as long as they have immediate control once the dog is removed from the vehicle.

DFrost


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## Puddincat (Dec 14, 2008)

It sounds like puppy excitement to me.


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Not sure what the OUT command is, because he is explosives the onlyout command he gets is to give me the Kong back... it is defintitly somethign I dont want to ignore, because it gets way too annoying, so if there is something I can do to make it better Id love to learn


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'd say it's either barrier aggression or excitement. My last gsd was like this in the truck and it was terrible. There was nothing I could do, short of telling him to stop, b/c he was in the bed and I was in the cab. 

My mal was like this when we saw other dogs on walks. At first I wasn't sure if it was dog aggression or excitement. I socialized him with other dogs and he was fine but it was still a problem on leash. I counter conditioned him and had him focus on me and redirected him to a toy. Pretty soon I could say "Watch Me" when another dog was coming and he would focus on me instead of the dog. This will be really hard when you're driving though unless you can get someone else to drive and you can handle him. Do you have a trainer you work with? Perhaps some sessions in the car with the trainer handling the dog could help.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Choppa12Not sure what the OUT command is, because he is explosives the onlyout command he gets is to give me the Kong back... it is defintitly somethign I dont want to ignore, because it gets way too annoying, so if there is something I can do to make it better Id love to learn


I should have been more specific. You can teach the dog a command to cease all aggression. Even though he may be a single purpose detector dog, you can teach a command to silence, or cease showing aggression. Often times, with dogs that spend a lot of time in a transport vehicle, they begin to show some territorial aggression. The barking and aggressive display is reinforced when nothing happens to stop it. We teach "out" to patrol dogs, meaning; cease all aggression. The command can be anything as long as it's consistent.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Offline 
Not sure what the OUT command is, because he is explosives the onlyout command he gets is to give me the Kong back... it is defintitly somethign I dont want to ignore, because it gets way too annoying, so if there is something I can do to make it better Id love to learn 

How is he in other circumstances? You need to get this under control. If for no other reason, the dog blows himself out going ballistic in the car and won't be ready to search when you need him. Not to mention this will only get worse. He is no puppy,you need to get hold of him


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

In ALL other circumstances he is great. My neighbors can't believe how quiet he is. He NEVER barks. On walks he is a great heeler. When I take him out and walk around the trucks he heels. It is work because i Know he wants to break the heel, but he knows he will get corrected. But off lead if I am throwing the ball and he catches a glimpse of a black truck, he will bomb toward that. But I can tell it has got worse, not the worst, but worse...


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

In case i wasn't clear. we drive black pickups, and that as you know are where the other dogs are!


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Sounds to me like some good old fashioned, off-leash obediance is called for. If you have control on leash, but not off leash in the presence of a black truck, that's where my training would be directed. Whether you use a long lead or electronics, I'd sure be working to solve the problem.

DFrost


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Yeah so I would guess my issue is two fold, a) the wanting to bolt after the trucks (when he does reach them he does the Malinois leap to try to see inside), and then the "barrier frustration." After doing a search on that, it seems like most do clicker training, which seems to be a whole other approach that I dont think I can get into. So whatever anyone can do to help, that is great.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I'd work on a solid recall, that will settle the running to the truck problem. Start close, on leash and extend the distance. Add the distractions as the dog become managable. Go to a longer leash. I'm in favor of electronics in such a situation. Used properly, they are a great tool. This is a problem where electronics can be a great asset. I agree, your problem is twofold. I've already explained what I'd do with the vehicle aggression. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I agree,power=good







Also, I put off leash obedience using the kong. Amazing how solid they will get when using motivational training too. Proof with electric


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203I agree,power=good
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Completely agree.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DFrost
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ladylaw203I agree,power=good
> ...




Too bad it doesn't work on men..........hehehehe


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DFrost
> ...





Uhhh, well, Hey wait a minute......... Ha ha.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

[/quote]




Uhhh, well, Hey wait a minute......... Ha ha.

DFrost [/quote]


I meant motivational training of course......


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Just a quick follow up..I think the problem is worsening over the past two weeks. Now whenI leave the truck and walk away he goes into his tantrum. Separation anxiety now? I dont know. I had him out of the truck today on lead, and another one of our guys drove into the area where we were. He started getting jacked up, and I told him to heel and put a correction or two which seemed to ramp him up even more. And what was worse is he showed those aggressive chompers to try and come at me. It was just a bad day in the K9 world for me. I just put him in the truck and put him in his kennell in doggie timeout for the rest of the day. Kinda sucks, he is a great dog, no shepherd!


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: And what was worse is he showed those aggressive chompers to try and come at me. It was just a bad day in the K9 world for me. I just put him in the truck and put him in his kennell in doggie timeout for the rest of the day. Kinda sucks, he is a great dog, no shepherd!


Understanding that I cannot do a proper evaluation over the web, he sounds like what we see a lot in Mals and that is a nervy/defensive dog that probably is not stable. Sorry but that is how it works in this police k9 world. Vendors import stuff and if the agency does not have a trainer on board to weed out these problem dogs,this is what you wind up with. Mals can have all the drive in the world,yet be nervy and this is the behavior you wind up with. hander aggression is something that you should not tolerate. How long has the agency has this dog and did he come from a vendor? I have handled and trained Mals for years, and there are nice stable ones. There are also dogs that were sold for a reason.....


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

I emailed "Uncle Lou" from someone's suggestion on this board. I must say I think I agree with his response. However I am way openminded about ways to make me a better handler/team...

+++ Good news and bad news The good news -- It's NOT that "He's a Mal." The bad news -- It IS that "He's a dog." Dogs bark, not matter the breed, with a very few exceptions and those dogs make a noise that is horrible when compared to barking. 

+++ There are ways to stop this but they'll interfere with his work and his relationship with you and there really aren't any guarantees that they'll work. I'd not try an Ecollar or a bark collar for this, I'd just learn to live with it. 

+++ Park further away so you can't hear him. Put some visual barrier between him and the rest of the dogs. You might try throwing a blanket over the car on the side where the training is going on. Make sure that you don't interfere with the air flow, especially during the summer when it can get real hot in the car. 

+++ One suggestion is to train him to bark on command, then teach a "quiet command" then, when he barks, give the quiet command. But this won't work except when you're right there to give the command. If you're away from the car, you can't give the command. 

+++ I'm sorry but basically my advice is to learn to live with it. As long as your dog is working properly it's just what dogs do. 

+++ As to the dog coming up the leash at you, he just let you know that he thinks either that the corrections were too hard for the offense or that he's tired of taking your crap. I'd suggest that you stop giving him corrections for minor offenses like this...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

This is the post that makes the most sense. Especially the last point -- if what your are doing is only escalating the situation, stop doing it. [This shouldn't be rocket science but boy do humans have a hard time with it!]


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well, I do NOT agree. I have been handling and training police service dogs for 20 years and I will NOT have a dog behaving that way. I have Mals and Dutchies, GSDs,labs, goldens and springers. My Mals keep their mouth shut. My dogs do not eat my patrol car nor will I tolerate handler aggression. You cannot do your job as a cop and have a dog trying to eat you. If you want to live with it,that is certainly your option. However,if you do nothing, the behavior will escalate. I have had to "repair" dogs who exhibited handler aggression and eventually put the handlers in the hospital. Unless you are nagging that dog to death and he finally got fed up,I would get a handle on that.


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

With the handler aggression, the more I think about it, I think I did get him ramped up with nagging corrections instead of the one good one. He was like "cut the crap." Perhaps I should work on the one good correction instead of the yanking when he starts pulling hard. I am on the nylon mountain collar, maybe I need to go back to the choke chain. Oh I dont know, thats why Im here.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quoteerhaps I should work on the one good correction instead of the yanking when he starts pulling hard. I am on the nylon mountain collar, maybe I need to go back to the choke chain. Oh I dont know, thats why Im here.


Yes, get a prong collar. Choke chains can damage the dog and do no good. They run through choke chains. Give one correction and don't nag him.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I generally agree with Mr. Castle (Uncle Lou) although I don't agree that nothing can be done about the barking. However, I do think teaching a quiet command is an excellant suggestion. It will work. I also agree with the "nagging" corrections. That's just annoying and the dog told you so in the only way they know how. I'd go with the choker, but that's just personal with me. I don't like prongs. Didn't say I don't use them, or there aren't times they aren't effective, I just don't like them. If a firm correction is needed then give it, always followed by another command. Remember you aren't angry when you give a correction, it's given and we move on. I still suggest you find a police trainer somewhere in your vicinity and have them take a look.

DFrost


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## Choppa12 (Jan 16, 2001)

Got it about the corrections. He was like"cut the crap dad." My best bet would have been to remove him from the situation, calm him down and continue to march. But with the original issue, I think lou was right. "Hey dad is going into the terminal without me, and he usually brings me and I can work or check stuff out. I am going to bark my ass off until he finally comes back, he always comes back, and maybe he will take me out." This is what I understand it to be, It is self rewarding. How do youteach the quiet command I guess would be my next question. I hope I am not beating a dead horse. By the way you were on the board at 4AM? Hopefully you were working!


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I still suggest you find a police trainer somewhere in your vicinity and have them take a look.


That is the best advice right there. I would hate to see that dog continue to escalate and get out of control. Find someone to help you. We will have to disagree about the pinch collars. Choke chains have been found to damage the dogs after extensive studies in Europe. Once those suckers learn to run through them,they are trot line weights.....


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

I am coming late to this thread but I may be able to find you a contact locally. I am a Sgt and have been on the job 15 years. I do not have a K9 at my department, but a friend of mine is a Sgt at Essex County SO in the K9 unit, also the trainer I work with for my personal dog, does work with police dogs. If you would like me to contact either of them just let me know.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

""By the way you were on the board at 4AM? Hopefully you were working!""


I was at work. I'm an early riser. My duty hours are 0700 to 1500, I'm usually at my desk at 0530. I'm gettin' too darn old for that, ha ha, but I wake up at 0400, 7 days a week. Haven't set an alarm clock in years. I rarely work anything but a day shift, so it's ok, I guess. 

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
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> > Quote: I still suggest you find a police trainer somewhere in your vicinity and have them take a look.
> ...


I understand what you are saying about chokers. Personally, I think the proper use of a choker is a lost art. 23 years in the MWD Program and 20 with the State Police, I've never seen a trach damaged by a choke chain. I've heard and read all the stories, but in well over 5,000 dogs have never experienced it. You are right though, we'll just have to agree to disagree, ha ha.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: You are right though, we'll just have to agree to disagree, ha ha.
> 
> DFrost










happy new year!!


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