# Why won't my twins go into heat?



## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

My girls are 11 months old and never gone into heat! Is this normal? My breeder told me to expect it around 6 - 9 months! Should I be concerned?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Lots of bitches don't come in until a year or after


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Each female is different. When her body is ready, she will come into heat. Just like little human girls, everyone is different. 
It will happen.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Be prepared to deal with two siblings potentially in heat at the same time... it can get really, really ugly, really, really quick. Most breeders will not sell siblings to the same home for this reason. Keep a good crate-and-rotate strategy ready!


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks guys! Echo - I didn't get them from a "breeder"! My friend owns mom and her mom owns dad! Mom had 8 and she was too small to handle it! She quit nursing after 5 weeks and my friend got very overwhelmed! So I took 2 of them! Sweetest girls ever though! My twins should do fine if they have big litters because they are huge like their daddy! We do, however, only intend to breed one at a time! That is mostly because one of them broke her hind leg at 12 weeks old and needed surgery! We want to make sure her leg is fully grown and strong before she adds the weight of babies! Her sister will go first!


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Thanks guys! Echo - I didn't get them from a "breeder"! My friend owns mom and her mom owns dad! Mom had 8 and she was too small to handle it! She quit nursing after 5 weeks and my friend got very overwhelmed! So I took 2 of them! Sweetest girls ever though! My twins should do fine if they have big litters because they are huge like their daddy! We do, however, only intend to breed one at a time! That is mostly because one of them broke her hind leg at 12 weeks old and needed surgery! We want to make sure her leg is fully grown and strong before she adds the weight of babies! Her sister will go first!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Dare I even get the ball rolling....

When are you planning on breeding the first girl?

Do you have a link to their pedigrees?

Do you have a link to the OFA page displaying the results of their health tests?

Out of curiosity, of course...

Are you active in any dog sports? Conformation?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I just feel a need to mention this to you, OP:
Litter mates are not recommended, especially two females. If they go into heat and decide they no longer like one another, they WILL fight. And females fight to kill. 
It is also possible the first girl will attack the other to "defend" her puppies. And it is just as possible for her to decide they are in danger and kill them herself (as well as for her not to react to her sister and the sister to kill the puppies). 
What will you do if your dog needs a c-section? 

Any of this can happen. None of it may occur. But do you have solid plans in case they do???


Also, if your friend BRED the dogs to get puppies that makes her a breeder. If you breed your girls, even once, that also makes you a breeder.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

What are the parents titled in? What are their OFA ratings? Why were they bred? 

What do you plan on doing with your girls? What sort of arenas do you train or show in? Where do you plan on finding a stud?

My warnings about two female siblings, especially in tact, and especially who may go into heat at the same time, is not to be taken lightly. My point in saying that breeders will not place them together is because it is more often than not (especially with females) VERY dangerous and can lead to lethal fighting. If you bring puppies into the mix and pregnancy hormones... that takes it up even another notch.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Neither girl should be bred before they are fully mature and have at least their hips/elbows certified with OFA if in the USA. That will make them some where around 26 months. This is a minimum requirement for any dog being bred. Don't be in a hurry. 

Most dogs don't nurse their pups full time past 4-4.5 weeks at which time the breeder will start to supplement the milk with some type of solid food. This is when the real work begins whether the bitch has 2 puppies or 12. Puppies should not leave the litter or the breeder until 8 weeks and, yup, it is a lot of work. Lots of poop. Lots of pee. Time spent playing with the puppies, feeding puppies, cleaning puppies, imprinting puppies, cleaning puppies, feeding puppies, playing, cleaning, feeding.............. This is what is best for the puppies and their future owners. Please, if you are not willing to put in this time, then don't breed.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Sweetest girls ever though!


My first two GSD girls were best of friends. Neke was about 2 years old than Tessa and they would play and eat and sleep together. Then Tessa had her first season and everything changed.

I came home from work and it looked like someone had filmed a slasher movie in my living room. Furniture overturned, curtains ripped off the windows and blood splattered EVERYWHERE!!

I found Tessa cowering behind the overturn sofa and Neke sitting in the kitchen. Tessa had to go to the vet and ended up with multiple bite wounds - several that needed drains. It took her a couple weeks to completely heal.

I never in a million years would have thought anything like that would happen between them.

There's a saying in the dog world - Males fight for breeding rights; females fight for BREATHING rights.

Please be prepared.

As for breeding them - please make sure you at LEAST get their hips and elbows certified by either OFA or PennHip so that you are not passing along problems to the people that purchase your puppies.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I'll let everyone else ream your for breeding pet GSDs.

Dogs can also have a 'silent heat' with no blood - which is how most people detect a dog in heat. If you're serious about breeding, after doing health tests and whatnot, you can have them checked frequently to see what their ideal days to breed are and for it to take.

Also, keep a close watch on them. Sibling bitches, UNALTERED sibling bitches! Rarely work out long-term.
You've got another year or more ahead of you before it's ethical or healthy to even breed them so you have plenty of time to research.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Here goes! The parents are not pedigreed as they were not meant to breed! Daddy got to mommy before my friend could get her fixed! I do not show but was interested in getting into it! The c-section question is stupid? I will do the same thing that any other dog momma would do! Fly her up to her vet which is 2 minutes from my house! I have plenty of crates and outdoor kennels as we have a farm with plenty of space for both ladies to have their own space entirely during these times! I did not ask this question to get ripped into by a bunch of people about choosing to let my girls have a litter or 2 each before they get fixed! I asked it to get an opinion on if them being 11 months with no heat was ok or if I should be concerned and call the vet! Nothing more! I have been breeding various breeds of animals for years, including show goats and show rabbits, and I am not stupid as to their specific needs when becoming mommies and daddies. I also never said that I could not handle what comes with a litter of puppies! I said my friend got overwhelmed! We are 2 very different people! As far as when i plan to breed - my twins are not even full grown till they are 2! wanting to know why their heats have not come does not mean i plan to breed the first heat. Lacey will be 2ish and Leona will be 3ish to make sure her leg is 100% healed and ready to bear the weight. not that I should even have to explain myself! Thank you to the first couple people that gave me a useful answer! 


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

So, you are just going to breed with no health screening? Will you take one of their puppies back if asked, due to the owner being unable to provide it care any longer? I mean throughout its life. 
Why do you want to breed them? I understand wanting to let a motherly dog have a litter, I wanted to breed mine. In my eyes she is gorgeous, splendidly smart, very social, eager to please and has a decent amount of drive. BUT I never bothered to get her papers, in reality she has many conformation faults, and has nothing to offer the breed as a whole. She's great, as a pet. But she is not breedworthy. Never will be. If you want to breed that's fine. But to breed without good purpose, for the good of the breed, is just adding more risk dogs. Especially if you don't know the pedigree to be able to match up proper pairs and produce stable, healthy puppies. 
Imo, you need to work both dogs. Make sure they have the working ability this breed should. Then, get an unbiased temperament test done. And get their hips/ elbows x-rayed and OFA rated. Also have them tested for DM. At the very least. Even then you won't find a top of the line stud if you have no papers.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Go to a shelter or a GSD rescue and see all the dogs needing homes and perfectly healthy dogs or dogs with poor temperaments because people bred dogs "just because"... Thousands of dogs like that being euthanized everyday and then ask yourself why do you feel the need to bring more dogs into a world that really doesn't need them.

They will be perfectly happy dogs without being "mommies".

Leave breeding to the professionals and enjoy your girls as wonderful pets!

Like others have said heat cycles can vary and they are still young enough that I wouldn't worry right now.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Once again! This was a very simple question that only required a very simple answer! "Leave breeding to the professionals"! Get over yourself! You "show" people are nothing more than pageant moms in the dog world! You people are the reason "wanted", past tense, to get into showing! unfortunately i could never be like you people! You don't care about the dog unless she can win you ribbons! What I do with my girls is absolutely none of your business! My girls are FAMILY! If I want them to be mommies then that is my business! My question had nothing to do with any of the answers you people have posted! 


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm not a show person. I AM a person who loves my dog very much like family. A dog that I have spent his entire life overcoming health and temperament issues because I got him from a backyard breeder with dogs who were not health checked or tested. Those dogs were his family too... he loved them and had the best intentions. And all but mine from the litter ended up in rescue with temperament issues. That's all anyone is asking you to consider. There are very, very few people on this board who consider themselves the professionals they say to leave the breeding to. The ones who are, have spent years training, researching bloodlines, titling their dogs, etc. It has nothing to do with viewing the dogs as equipment-- often the "professionals" are the MOST emotionally invested, because of all the time, money, and often heartbreak involved with breeding. The people here who have gotten their dogs from backyard breeders will be the first ones to tell you that it's irresponsible.

We are frequently fighting an uphill battle with the image of this breed. This is largely due to a strong, drivey working breed being bred by pet owners who don't do their research, don't understand the wonky genetics behind temperament, don't ensure that their dogs are going to pass on healthy temperaments, etc. It's largely due to people saying, "I love my dog and think she wants to be a mom". If you want to breed them, great! All anyone has asked is that you do the work first-- get them OFA'd and health checked, train them, get them titles. Set them and their puppies up for success, not failure.

The vast majority of the people on this thread have solely warned you of the very real risks of having two sibling females.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

first off most that replied to this thread do not show their dogs and aren't breeders

So your post about them being "pageant moms" is totally wrong.

If you don't like the things being posted, just ignore them, simple as that.

People here are very passionate about german shepherds.

Maybe stick around and read some of the threads in breeding etc to get an idea why many are passionate about indescriminate breeding of dogs..


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Actually, this is a mostly working line, not show line, forum. There are far more members here with dogs from working lines, who do not participate in shows, than anything. And those dogs are mostly used in sports, for work, or as companions. So your tantrum really has no plausible base.
Obviously we can't stop you from doing what you want. We are, however, because we love our breed, going to try to at least get you to do it RESPONSIBLY. Honestly, I find it sad that you want to breed them just because you can and not because you love this breed.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Kristindsullivan said:


> You "show" people are nothing more than pageant moms in the dog world! You people are the reason "wanted", past tense, to get into showing! unfortunately i could never be like you people! You don't care about the dog unless she can win you ribbons! http://www.petguide.com/mobile


My Chinese Crested girl was bred before she won any ribbons. But I did all the necessary health tests (eyes and knees) before I bred her.

Why? Not because she would win more ribbons. Not to make more money on the puppies.

I did it because I would NEVER want to send home a less-than-healthy puppy to their new owner.

Genetics is a crap shoot even when we DO try to pick the best animals to breed but at least I can stack the deck in my favor by starting with healthy animals.

The people on this board are VERY emotional when it comes to people breeding without at least doing the health tests because many here have had puppies from parents that weren't tested and they have suffered for it.

Dogs having to be put to sleep at a young age due to bad hips or elbows. Dogs with poor temperaments - that can't handle life in general and have fears of normal things. Dogs with serious health issues like allergies, panus, Degenerative Myelopathy and so on.

Every person deserves a dog that can live a full and healthy life.

People on this board are passionate about this breed and making sure those people that are reproducing the breed are doing it the right way.

CAN you breed your dogs? Yes.

The question is SHOULD those dogs be bred.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm not a show person. I AM a person who loves my dog very much like family. A dog that I have spent his entire life overcoming health and temperament issues because I got him from a backyard breeder with dogs who were not health checked or tested. Those dogs were his family too... he loved them and had the best intentions. And all but mine from the litter ended up in rescue with temperament issues. That's all anyone is asking you to consider. There are very, very few people on this board who consider themselves the professionals they say to leave the breeding to. The ones who are, have spent years training, researching bloodlines, titling their dogs, etc. It has nothing to do with viewing the dogs as equipment-- often the "professionals" are the MOST emotionally invested, because of all the time, money, and often heartbreak involved with breeding. The people here who have gotten their dogs from backyard breeders will be the first ones to tell you that it's irresponsible.
> 
> The vast majority of the people on this thread have solely warned you of the very real risks of having two sibling females.


I am not a show person. I am starting in the show ring with a Pom, but that is for another thread.

I am not a show person....I am a "DOG" person. I have been apprenticing as a trainer for 7 years, and I get to see the products of the "if I want to breed them I will" people. Or better yet the "I want the money from the litter" people (not saying you said this was your reason). It is never fun for the uneducated new owner, nor the mess of a pup, but honestly these people are SO committed to trying to undo the harm done by genetics. They amaze me with how much they are going to put into this dog, how much time, blood, sweat and tears....some people wouldn't bother.

I am not a show person....I am a "DOG" person, and as such I want to see the best for every dog, not just Shepherds, not just purebreds, and not just my own.

I don't think the best for a dog is having to go through life afraid of EVERYTHING, having painful joint issues or lifelong vet visits, ALLERGIES, and then getting shut away or put down for biting, because the dog is scared of EVERYTHING - all because someone had their own agenda.

I am not against breeding GOOD DOGS - the only reason should be to improve. Improve nerve, temperament, drive, ability, conformation, health, I could go on.

I am not a show person....I am a "DOG" person.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Actually I don't show, my pup is a pet only and even though he has an excellent pedigree I would never breed him. I'm not trying to be mean or attack you, I just don't want to see more dogs end up in shelters.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Based on my question how do any of you know enough about me, my twins or my plans to make comments about me being a "backyard breeder" or "indiscriminately breeding"? You know nothing about us! You don't know that I do extensive research on animals I have even before getting them let alone breeding them. You don't know who I have talked to about trying to register and/or paper them. You don't know how many conversations I have had with my vet about testing. Yet you all keep making comments about how "I plan on breeding without any health testing". My question had nothing to do with this stuff therefor I did not feel the need to explain out my lifelong plans for my girls before I asked it! You should all be more careful before you bash someone to death to know what kind of person/breeder you are dealing with. Some of us new breeders are far more knowledgable and ethical then you give us credit for. My mother bought a Golden Retriever from one of the biggest breeders in NH 10 years ago. She was highly accomplished and accredited. Lots of show titles. Health certs. on every dog they had. My moms dog has had medical problems since she was 2. There is another huge breeder in NH that breeds Siberian Husky Dogs. She has fabulously titled dogs and 3 GENERATIONS OF FEMALES (some siblings) on site. no bloodshed at her farm. Being new does not make you a half-assed breeder. Being uninformed does. Unfortunately, a new breeder doing research and asking questions gets slammed by people like you. It's no wonder they stop asking questions and therefor become uninformed breeders. Fortunately, you people will not hinder me from learning it all and following through with my plans. I will just ask my questions to nicer people I guess.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Everyone has been quite nice and only asked you to consider some things.

I think people garnered the inexperienced part because you separated two pups from a litter so dramatically early-- female siblings no less. THAT is uninformed. Inexperienced is NOT bad! Everyone, even Robin Huerta, Cliffson, Wolfstraum, and the other greats on this board started inexperienced. People here are merely trying to point you down the path to learning. If you want to accept learning from great breeders, that is great! That's one of the first steps to learning about responsible breeding. 

Again, not one person here has hindered you from learning. They've told you where to start. 



And N. Smith-- GREAT post


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

I didn't separate anyone from their litter. As I already said, my friend did. 2 different people. I have been nothing but bashed for wanting to breed my girls at some point. My question did not warrant all the questions and comments. The first couple people are the only ones that gave me an answer to my question without grilling my every thought. I personally have enough experience breeding animals


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Sorry! My 3 year old hit send. I have enough experience breeding that I am well aware of how log litters should be with momma. Her mistake does not make me uninformed or immoral.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm confused. You post about wanting to learn, then complain about our questions and comments. Which help to teach.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

There was no reason to ask. You all assume I know nothing from me asking one little question when in fact you have no idea what I do or do not know! 


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Absolutely, you have experience breeding animals. That's an excellent starting point. Now you need to learn about breeding the BREED specifically. That's what the fun is all about. It sounds like you really do want to do that! Part of it is learning what goes into breeding responsibly. Learn about bloodlines, breed history, etc. Learn about what is, and is not, desirable in a GSD, learn about genetics and temperament. Have fun doing it! Getting your dogs titled in some arena will be a great learning experience but more importantly an awesome bonding experience. 

Ok, you didn't separate them, but you still took them, two siblings, and didn't know at what age they'd go into heat. Not inexperienced, uninformed. That's fine-- everyone starts somewhere! 


Again, nobody here has by any means bashed you-- if anything, calling us pageant moms, saying we don't love our dogs because we are concerned, is bashing. All anyone has said is here is where to start learning-- I don't think you can deny that that's what you want to do. A lot of great people here have a lot of knowledge on breeding-- be receptive, and again-- have fun!
And not one person has said that it's immoral. If being inexperienced is immoral, we'd all have been sinners at some point


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Here goes! The parents are not pedigreed as they were not meant to breed!





Kristindsullivan said:


> You don't know who I have talked to about trying to register and/or paper them.


If the parents of your dogs are not AKC registered then the litter wasn't registered, and the puppies can't be either. So although you can get a PAL/ILP number on them so you could participate AKC events such as agility, rally, or tracking, they would have to be spayed in order to apply for the number. http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm

There is no way to register puppies from unregistered parents, and without "papers", if you choose to breed your dogs the best you can hope to do is sell to pet homes who don't care about whether or not you can prove that the puppies are purebred or not.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Yes I could have jumped down your throat for calling me a "pageant mom" when I don't even show... So you ASSUMED something about me that wasn't true. And then you went on to tell me that I don't love my dog which is absolutely ridiculous, my dogs are my kids(I don't have human children). So you are doing the thing that you are accusing us of doing.

We see SO many threads here about people thinking it would be cool to breed their sweet family pet and have no idea what the process actually is... That's why a lot of people who've been here awhile approach threads like this... We only care about the dogs, we are not bashing. It was an easy assumption to make when you said you wanted to breed dogs from an "oops" litter with no papers or pedigree and that you didn't know bitches can rarely be kept together successfully.

There are so many knowledge people, instead of getting defensive... Ask questions and learn as much as you can from them if that is what you want to do.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

There is quite frankly no one here that can help me! I have done a lot of research and have found nothing wrong with having sisters. I know other reputable breeders that would strongly disagree with you people. I took the twins early not because I was uninformed but because I was concerned my friend wasn't handling them all very well. Guess you would all prefer I left them and risked them dying due to lack of proper care right? I was immediately jumped on just because I said I wanted to breed them. There was absolutely no reason you all could not have just answered the question at hand. Instead you felt the need to question everything about my plans without having the slightest inkling as to what they were. If I had asked questions pertaining to learning from you people then your answers and questions would have been warranted. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Based on my question how do any of you know enough about me, my twins or my plans to make comments about me being a "backyard breeder" or "indiscriminately breeding"? You know nothing about us!


We know that you plan on breeding un-registered dogs from un-registered parents, because that's exactly what you said. How much do you know about your dog's parents, and the generations prior to that? If you don't have a pedigree then you don't know anything about them, which makes you by definition an indiscriminate breeder. :shrug:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Kristindsullivan said:


> There is quite frankly no one here that can help me! I have done a lot of research and have found nothing wrong with having sisters. I know other reputable breeders that would strongly disagree with you people. I took the twins early not because I was uninformed but because I was concerned my friend wasn't handling them all very well. Guess you would all prefer I left them and risked them dying due to lack of proper care right? I was immediately jumped on just because I said I wanted to breed them. There was absolutely no reason you all could not have just answered the question at hand. Instead you felt the need to question everything about my plans without having the slightest inkling as to what they were. If I had asked questions pertaining to learning from you people then your answers and questions would have been warranted.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


People did answer the question at hand-- YOU said you wanted to breed them. Since this is a DISCUSSION forum, people wanted to discuss. We're a very passionate bunch here- there's a lot of discussion on the learning process of breeding. It's how people...learn. All anyone started with was asking what kind of titles, etc the parents had-- which is what we ask ANYONE saying they want to breed their dogs... because we like to talk about bloodlines, and share stories. Heck, anyone who posts about their dogs in generally usually gets asked those questions. It's like going to a car enthusiast forum... everyone asks the make and model and history. Because they're enthusiasts. 

And I don't know many reputable GSD breeders who will tell you that sibling females is a good idea. It may differ from breed to breed :shrug: That's my point, with you need to get to know the breed. There are a lot of people here who know WAY more than you, or any of us on this thread. I'm sure Cliff, Carmen, Robin, etc all will readily say there are people who know a lot more than THEM. 

opcorn:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kristindsullivan, I would guess that any forum or discussion board that you go on with passionate dog lovers....will not support your breeding goals. 
UNLESS you understand the pedigree's of your "twins" and how to match them, do the proper health testing, and possibly work the dogs for titles so you understand their strengths/weaknesses and whether or not they are actually breedworthy. 
If you want other dog forum suggestions, pm me and I guarantee you every other board will post the same as the members here are. 
Please try not to be defensive, because what is right is right, regardless. Open minded learning will help your "twins" and could even save their lives. Thank goodness you don't have brother and sister....then you would be asking a whole different set of questions....


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Kristindsullivan said:


> There is quite frankly no one here that can help me! I have done a lot of research and have found nothing wrong with having sisters. I know other reputable breeders that would strongly disagree with you people. I took the twins early not because I was uninformed but because I was concerned my friend wasn't handling them all very well. Guess you would all prefer I left them and risked them dying due to lack of proper care right? I was immediately jumped on just because I said I wanted to breed them. There was absolutely no reason you all could not have just answered the question at hand. Instead you felt the need to question everything about my plans without having the slightest inkling as to what they were. If I had asked questions pertaining to learning from you people then your answers and questions would have been warranted.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Absolutely we can ask questions, that is what happens when you are a breeder, people ask you questions, and lots of them. They want to know where their dogs are coming from and what you have done to ensure their pup is going to be the best pup for them.

If you are the informed breeder that you say you are, you should be able to answer the questions about titling, pedigree and health checks, no prob. It shouldn't make you defensive, it should make you proud to be asked. 

You should be proud that people took the time to ask you and that you have the answers! I am so proud to say that I have spent the better part of three years titling my female, and having her hips, elbows, heart and thyroid certified. I am PROUD because I did everything I could to ensure the next generation is better.

So when people ask the questions, rather than get defensive that you are being judged, prove them wrong.

It is pretty unheard of for GS people to take on two female siblings (not impossible though), for a couple reasons. Most want to dedicate time to ONE dog, get the titles, show ribbons, do the health testing etc. But also, female Shepherds can be quite fierce when housed together.

You had mentioned that a Sibe breeder keeps her females together and I believe it. Sibes were "originally" bred as sled dogs, and some still are, so they need to have a temperament that lends to working in a "pack" environment. It would not work for a musher to have dog fights along the way. Especially when the dogs are "amped" up to go! Have you seen a sled dog race, those dogs get pretty wild!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kristindsullivan, 

I know this was not your question, but I do want to mention something as you brought it up in your post, and I did not hear anyone else mention it. 

A huge part in the development of puppies is the imprinting they get from their dam. Since your bitches were separated from their dam so early this crucial time was missed. Perhaps their dam was not a good dam, and that she will pass on through her genes to her offspring. These girls can make good pets, but I would be very concerned with what type of a mother they will be. I am a breeder, and I wouldn't take that gamble even if they could be registered through AKC and had all the rest of the hoops covered. 

Now to your question. I would not worry yet, some bitches go in late, and some have very minor first heats that can be missed.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

I have found help elsewhere so consider this post / question closed! I do not wish to hear any more of your opinions. The question was simple. The rest is my business not yours. 

To the last poster - they got plenty of dam time. As you read my friend owns her and we were all there pretty much every day for the puppies to be with mommy and siblings. Mom did great for 5 weeks but she was a small GSD while dad was a very large GSD. The result was 8 very large babies. She got tired. Not her fault. If she had been paired with a similar size male then I think the outcome would have been different.

You all love to jump to conclusions! I said I took them from my friend. Never said they were not with their mom every day. They still see mom and dad at least 3 times a week actually.

You all have a great one.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

At 5 weeks, they were in the weaning period/should have been already weaned, as is normal.

Can't believe you want to breed your dogs. My confidence in your competence in this matter is low :-/ Just because you bred other things doesn't mean you did it well.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

No one asked you xeph! And for the record, my goats and rabbits win shows so they are obviously bred well!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It really does not matter what they see now, and if they saw their dad at all. There is imprinting that a bitch does with her pups that happens during the neonatal stages. 5 weeks is young, but so long as the bitch did well with them up to five weeks you are probably ok, certainly not ideal though. 

Seeing their dam and living with their dam and litter are totally different things. The dam imprints temperament, and prior to about 3 weeks when the socialization period actually starts, after the eyes and ears are open, the way the dam responds to stimuli effects how the pups will react to different situations. How the dam acts toward her puppies throughout the first 7-8 weeks can determine how the pups will respond to their own pups. 

Just because you no longer want to participate in this thread, someone else can get information they need out of it, and posting a thread on a internet forum often takes on a life of its own. I am not surprised that your welcome here was not to your liking. I would encourage you to stick around and learn more about the breed and breeding and raising puppies.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Like I said seltzer, I have gotten assistance from someone on this forum who is not so judgmental and cruel! 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My pups are usually weaned naturally by their dam when they are ready. All of them continue to get at least some of their total intake from the dam beyond five weeks. Some people want to get the dam's coat back and will go through a weaning program where they remove her for a number of hours and increasing time, until she is dry. I don't do this. I think it really depends on the female. I think what they get from the litter and the dam between 5-8 weeks is a lot though whether milk is involved or not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Like I said seltzer, I have gotten assistance from someone on this forum who is not so judgmental and cruel!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


It is SELZER, ok. That is my name. ok? No T in there. 

No one is being cruel to you and I wasn't being judgmental. I was bringing up something that you might not have considered. In future, or wherever else you go, if you do not want people to consider the rest of the story, maybe try posting a question that does not include all that information, like, 

I have two 11 month old puppies, littermates. They haven't gone into heat yet. Should I be concerned? 

When you go on about when you got them and what you plan to do with them and how they aren't registered, and how the people you got them from are not breeders, and how it was an oops litter and on and on and on, you are asking people to get into a tizzy. 

It's midnight and my internet connection turns into a pumpkin when my dad throws me out, but I would sure enjoy going back and forth about this with you.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Once again! This was a very simple question that only required a very simple answer! "Leave breeding to the professionals"! Get over yourself! You "show" people are nothing more than pageant moms in the dog world! You people are the reason "wanted", past tense, to get into showing! unfortunately i could never be like you people! You don't care about the dog unless she can win you ribbons! What I do with my girls is absolutely none of your business! My girls are FAMILY! If I want them to be mommies then that is my business! My question had nothing to do with any of the answers you people have posted!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


So this isn't judgmental and cruel even though myself and a lot of the people on this thread don't show our dogs?


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Just remember carriesue - you people started this! Simple question and you all jumped up my rear end! Maybe I wouldn't have gotten pissy if you all hadn't provoked it. None of you know me or my dogs so you really have no grounds to get all worked up because someone wants to breed their dog!


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh and that was the auto-correct on my iPad Selzer. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kristindsullivan said:


> Just remember carriesue - you people started this! Simple question and you all jumped up my rear end! Maybe I wouldn't have gotten pissy if you all hadn't provoked it. None of you know me or my dogs so you really have no grounds to get all worked up because someone wants to breed their dog!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I think that as a German Shepherd Dog site, you have to expect people to be on here that want to preserve and protect the breed. The worst thing to happen to our breed in recent years has been indiscriminate breeding producing dogs with poor temperament and and excess of health problems that contribute to the poor reputation our breed has. Another terrible thing is how many of our breed land in shelters and rescues each year. So when someone comes on with statements that reek of lack of knowledge about the breed and breeding dogs, you can't expect people to jump for joy and welcome you and affirm what you intend to do with your bitches.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

I may be learning still but as my girls are healthy, good conformation, great temperament and will get their tests when they are old enough, how am I doing anything different from others? Oh, I forgot. My girls are not registered. Because registered dogs are the only ones that pass on good genes and better lines right? Please!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Without registration, you have no way of knowing who is behind your bitches. How can you make good breeding decisions for your bitch if you don't know whether or not you are inbreeding, what you should stay away from, etc. How do you know how closely related the sire and dam were? 

And who will you sell your dogs to? The best homes will want the papers. So now you are limiting yourself to homing dogs without papers, which means you have to find excellent homes that simply do not care if their dog is purebred or not. Most of us know 2-4 people that want a puppy. What if your bitch gives you 14? The more the merrier? 

Papers don't make the dog, but a dog without papers should not be bred, hands down. So, sorry, if you are intending to breed dogs without AKC or SV registration in the US, Canadian Kennel Club in Canada, then you are adding to the problem. That is all people need to know to come up with the conclusions they are coming up with. 

AKC registration does not mean the dog is breedworthy, far from it, but without being eligible for AKC registration the dog is not breedworthy. There is just no way around it.


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

And again, that's your opinion. Where I live, people want this breed for hunting, farming and herding. My girls are doing really well with herding and hunting is next. I'm sure they will have no problem there either. The rest of their litter had no problem being placed with great homes and there were 8. I have a fairly large list of people that are overly impressed with my girls and are patiently waiting years for their offspring. I will have no problems finding great farming / hunting homes for these dogs!


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## Kristindsullivan (Jan 10, 2013)

Oh and I actually do know where the dam and sire came from and they are completely non-related. Knowing that it will be fairly easy to make sure there is no inbreeding. 


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok...so why are you breeding your dogs. What can you give people that other more qualified breeders are not doing? Why should I buy a german shepherd from you rather than getting one of the many dogs with no home from a shelter? Breeding in this situation makes people angry who care about animals because there doesn't seem to be a reason. Why pay for a dog whose breeder gives so little thought to the process? Many people on here work for rescues who see dogs abandoned all the time. The world does not have a dog shortage. Don't add to the problem


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

As I said in my last post, you don't like what you read ignore it.

That's great someone is helping you behind the scenes I just hope it is someone with sound advice.

Whether you take their advice or not is up to you. Sometimes posters come on here with questions and do not like the answers nor advice, they are looking for validation and get ticked off when they don't get it..Nothing anyone can do about closed minded people.

You may have a couple of the greatest dogs on earth but the reality is, they can never be 'registered' nor shown like your rabbits and goats 

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I will say this, your attitude comes off as being 'knowlegeable' about breeding etc, yet you couldn't answer your own question? That tells me you have alot to learn about 'dog breeding'.

You don't have to post here, but you can always read some of the topics this forum has, the issues people have had, breeding problems had and what makes one a responsible breeder and learn something from them.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Just a quick thought. The OP can register them with the "joke" organizations, mainly Continental Kennel club. Most pet stores are now buying puppies with Continental Kennel Club papers because they have no restrictions and any back yard breeder can get them on their dogs. So, she can breed her wonderful dogs, register them Continental Kennel Club and sell a bunch of back yard bred puppies. Yea, great.
. Your rabbits and such win shows, would that be 4-H shows or county fairs? 
You won't be showing or competing at AKC shows with your dogs. You can't just "talk to someone about registering them" with AKC, the sire/dam had to be fully registered before breeding, then the litter registered. But, as I stated above, there are many many "joke" registries made just for "breeders" like you who want to register the dogs before breeding so they can make more money on selling the puppies.
Also, your girls are LITTERMATES, not TWINS................ At least get that much correct when becoming a breeder of dogs.


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