# Not suited for sport or just bored?



## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

I have a 9-month old female WL German shepherd.

She has been coming to my training club for 2-3 months.

During those visits, she was tied, watching the other dogs.

At the last two club meetings, the trainer began working a tug with her.

A week ago, she played a little with the tug, but seemed to lose interest after several pulls.

Last night, she sat watching the trainer move a variety of tugs in front of her in a variety of ways. 

She made no effort to grab the tug, and seemed more interested in the grass.

Her reaction to the tug was significantly less at both sessions compared to other pups of similar age( two Malinois, 8 months and 11 months) at same basic level of training.

Her reaction was also much less than my other shepherd, a SL male, who I began bringing to the club, albeit at an older age of 18 months.

The trainer tried a smaller tug, as well as a rag....same lack of reaction.

The trainer suggested that I stop playing tug with her at home to increase her interest at the club (and I guess build frustration?).

She enjoys the tug at home, and works fairly hard to get it.

Does this sound like a puppy who is bored, and who would benefit from building frustration, or a puppy who may just not be suitable for sport?

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Have you tried a flirt pole with a rag at the end?

Not sure if this is what the TD was doing or not, but the "prey" like movements of the flirt pole may build interests.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Both females I've had won't play tug when my husband tries it, but will with me. Must be a submissive posture or something like that. They wouldn't play bite or wrestle or anything where they thought he was being dominant, even though he was playing- or trying to get them to. When he would try to play tug with Omy she would drop it and let him have the toy. Uschi would drop her ears and get all wiggly and submissive, so it could be something like that with your girl.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What about having her out so she could watch others, build up some drive and then put her up. Take her back out and see if it helps?


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks for the quick response.

elisabeth_00117: The tug and the rag were on the end of a cord, not a pole. 

Stosh: She didn't appear to be submissive. She sat looking directly at him with her ears erect. The tug was moving in front of her, and above her head. She eventually turned away, and looked towards the street.

Both comments make sense, but I still have the same basic concern.

Should a sport dog need that much stimulation, or consideration of who is presenting an object, to chase a tug/rag?


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry, missed the third reply.

Yes, that was the suggestion of the trainer, and the breeder.

We will let her watch for the next 8-12 weeks.

I'm hopeful she is a "late bloomer".

Chasing a tug seems to me to be a fairly basic trait however that shouldn't require so much thought.

Nonetheless, I've only been working with my older dog for 12-18 months, and don't have a good frame of reference.

Thanks for your input.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I did a lot of back tie work with Stark (now 16 months old) and still do.

He is not a "sport bred dog" (mix of showlines and working) and in the beginning his drive really was no-existent. It's getting better but no where near the level of some of the other dogs, especially the working lines and Mals at the club.

This just means that *I* have to work harder!

Stark is a regular at the fence (area where we back tie dogs to watch protection work) because he gets worked up but them looses momentum. It seems to help for a few weeks.. then it's back to the same thing.

I know I won't be getting any top schH titles with Stark but that's okay, we are doing it for fun right now. I am starting to research breeders for my next dog and am definitely going with a working line dog with an experience breeder in the sport.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

It took four sessions of tug of war with the helper to get Britta interested in the game. The fourth time we were ready to give up on her, but I got an old toy out of the car and she came to life. She went on to get a Schutzhund III. 

Don't give up too quickly.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

I'll admit to some frustration.

I need that toy.

Thanks for the encouragement, and congratulations re Britta.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i wouldn't give up on her, she may very well be a late bloomer, some dogs need a bit of teasing to be interested, at least in the beginning stages........my young male was the same way, once i started teasing him with the tug, he came to life. i also started playing with him in different locations other than at home........places with more distractions once he got more interested in the tug.........now he goes nuts over it, but it did take alot of work and creative ways in the beginning to bring it out. some dogs need alot more coaxing, it doesn't mean they aren't right for the sport..........keep trying different things..........different toys and teasing her with them.........i don't know how many tugs and toys i tried before i hit on something..........it can be frustrating finding the right tools, but keep trying,.............


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Thanks for all the suggestions and encouragement.

I will keep trying.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My male kinda did the same thing. At first he was all about the toys and tugging, then around that same age he just looked at the helper like he was ridiculous. He does have prey drive and has *always* been crazy for toys and will play with me, but in the context of bitework with the helper he was not interested. When he was mature enough, we made bitework real, not a helper dancing around with a toy but a helper presenting a threat and training the dog that showing the same power will make the threat go away.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Maybe she's like what Lies said with Nikon. Maybe she is a more defensive dog and needs to be worked differently ... when she is old enough for that kind of work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How many times a week are you going to the club?

My puppy is going crazy when she is tied up and another dog is being worked. She goes nuts but that is not everything. 

I too have to work on her drive, to make her more confident and to build up her drive. Detlef Berensmann (some may know him from the Seminars he gave in the US) has given me a lot of great advise on my Blog Post and the Video I have posted and he said the same thing as people said on here. Build drive, drive, drive and literally load her up. 

Read the comments, there is a lot of great information from Detlef in there.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6266617131398149350&postID=562150431562150363&isPopup=true

I was actually asking him if it was better if she was tied up on a fence and he said:



> she would feel presher every time when she runs into the leash and *this would make her more passive.*


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Liesje: my pup is similar at home. She chases leaves, runs after anything that is thrown, and plays endlessly if she can find a willing partner. Different pup at the club.

Jason: yes, you may be correct

Mrs. K: typically once weekly, occasionally twice a week. I will read the comments.

I'm glad I posted.

It helps to know that others have successfully worked with similar behavior.

Thanks.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Liesje said:


> When he was mature enough, we made bitework real, not a helper dancing around with a toy but a helper presenting a threat and training the dog that showing the same power will make the threat go away.


:rofl: thank you! I've been swearing up and down that my dog has prey drive except he's only interested in reusable shopping bags and vacuums! He's plenty protective at home and around our property, barks and walks really confidently on routes that he knows well. I think he just sees that the field is clearly not his territory and he should sit down and shut up  which could be the problem with the OP's puppy. 
I've done the exact same exercises at home and in our park and he did great. At the field he just stares at me like I'm a moron and he's never seen me before. He has no interest in their toys but only certain things I make toys out of. It also gets him going more when I smack the bottom of his jaw when he has a good grip (same strength as burping a baby) and he grabs on tighter and starts pulling harder


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Fetch/tug might work to "jump start" her prey drive. You can try this at home. Pick a time when she is rested and fresh. Take 2 tugs, hook or tie a 6 ft. rope to each (I use 2 old puppy leashes because of the handles). Put a small treat in your pocket. Have your dog be on a down/stay or a sit/ stay. You stroll out with both tugs. Then turn- release her - at the same time throw one tug only about 10 ft. from you. Keep the other tug - the second she grabs it - give a quick tug - then drop and start with the second tug. Swing it - scoot it on the ground - even by her legs. When she drops her tug and comes to grab yours - do a little tugging - then drop it and go for the first one and so on. You may need to "act like prey" - make growling sounds - like you really want that tug - to help her "get into the game". Keep the session short - fun - leave her wanting more. And let her win -to end it, when she is tugging - drop it - turn away and walk away "looking defeated". Then turn and praise her and call her to you - start walking back to the house -she may bring her tugs with her. At the give command - when she gives you her tug - give her the treat in exchange. Praise her again for being such a "great hunter". This is based on the methods used in Natural Dog Training by Kevin Behan which utilitilizes the dog's prey drive.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Is she a DDR workingline dog?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I know that I am not perfect and I have to learn a lot, especially using my body and letting her more win and stuff like that. 

But have you tried it like that?


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

MaryBeth: Thanks, I haven't tried that exercise. I copied the instructions, and will do so once I resume the tug play at home. My trainer suggested I stop the tug training at home for awhile however to build frustration for training.

cliffson1: No, she isn't DDR.

Mrs K: Thank you for posting the video. Yes, we do that at home. I worked with the tug mostly, but rag also. She is animated, and relentless, with both at home. When the trainer works the tug at the field, she sits and watches.

Thank you again to everyone. The response to my post has been tremendously helpful. 

This is a really good forum.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I had a pup who had a lot of DDR in her though not completely. She acted exactly like that in puppyhood. She could not give a flip about doing prey stuff with some guy at a club, though she owned a good degree of prey. What is that?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

My female ddr was like that also, she was a very late bloomer. i honestly thought something was wrong with her, because she was supposed to have alot of drive as that was what i wanted........she could have cared less about chasing a ball, or anything early on..........
i think she kicked in at around a year or so old, although i did do things to help bring it out.........i took a stuffed racoon tail and tied it to a rope and dragged it around.....
well, be careful what you wish for, because i couldn't have gotten a dog with more drive when things kicked in.......

my yong male west german line takes work to get him interested, he Loves to tug, and gets right into it, but is easily distracted by his surroundings, such as if a butterfly goes by, a bumble bee, etc.........he goes off to chase that.........in other words he does not have the ability to totally focus on an article of play to tune everything out around him...........this type of dog can be alot harder to work with......not exactly a preferred trait in a dog since i have always had obsessive nuts for toys, balls, anything........but it is what it is, and you can work with it, but it is ALOT of work, and alot of people prefer not to put the time into a dog that is not real responsive and focused and easily distracted by things........


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> > Originally Posted by *Liesje*
> > _When he was mature enough, we made bitework real, not a helper dancing around with a toy but a helper presenting a threat and training the dog that showing the same power will make the threat go away._
> 
> 
> ...


Nikon's lack of activating in prey drive came out in bitework. His work with toys doesn't change no matter what I use (tug, balls, Kong tails, a rag, a stick...) or where we go but in bitework it just didn't work to work him in prey. He doesn't see bitework as the same "game" as doing obedience with me. There was nothing I could do at home to "help" other than just let him chill until he was mature enough to do bitework in the sense that he is bringing power to diffuse a threat, not winning a prey object and parading it in a circle. It needed to be more real for him to activate, and now that he knows what to do and has been slowly empowered by learning to bring more power and confidence, he activates fine (he will run the blinds and come in with full speed and power, doesn't need to be stimmed up or have whips cracking all the time). But, being this sort of dog he will probably always work a little bit better in close. When he was a little under a year old, the rag stuff and bite pillow and waving the sleeve with the helper dancing around wasn't getting him anywhere. Likewise now that he is more mature, I'm adding more conflict into his obedience as well. In general he works better when he's taken a little out of balance and when it's more real than just fun and games.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My female was slow to mature also. She is a more serious dog in the work. There is enough prey drive that she can be channeled there easy enough, but the work is serious to her. She really never had much inclination to "play" with some stranger and their weird toy! With maturity, more of the dog was there anyway.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

Liesje: can you clarify what you mean by "it needed to be more real for him to activate".

Samba: are you describing the same type of dog as Liesje? 

i.e. a dog that will respond to what it perceives as a serious threat, but won't respond to someone "playing" with a sleeve (or in my case a tug)?

Thanks.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For us it is like Samba says, my dog has no interest in playing tug with a sleeve on a stranger's arm, winning it, and parading it in a circle. To him, bitework means that he needs to diffuse a threat by matching and exceeding the amount of power the threat is showing to him. Foundation work was teaching him that the acceptable method of diffusing said threat is biting the sleeve centered calm and hard and showing power and fight back. He worked in defense and now as he matures (he is only just turning two) his fight drive is starting to develop. The nice thing about a dog that does not overload in prey is that the secondary obedience has come pretty easy for us. The first time I tried a call out he did it fine without a check or correction. He also heels nicely out to run blinds, down for the long bite, is under control setting up for the escape, and heels fine where you are walking several paces behind the helper (whatever that exercise is called). He is a bit sensitive to me which probably helps in these areas and can be a pain in other areas. Maybe he is also influenced by my own attitude which is that a lot of prey work especially early on (like trying to get puppies on trial sleeves for whatever reason) doesn't really matter much.


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## oc1979 (Apr 16, 2007)

thanks.


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