# Bloodlines/Dogs known for tracking



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I am trying to find out more information on bloodlines or dogs that are known for their nosework. WGWL, Czech it doesn't matter. If you are looking at pedigrees, what dogs do you like to see b/c they were known for their nosework amongst other things. **** if a kennel is known for it that is fine as well.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

I heard that czech lines arent as good at tracking than wgwl because theyre too suspicious of the enviroment around the enviroment and dont often have tunnel vision. I found it on this forum or alpinek9 but I dont remember, sorry :s but the. But then Again a lot of dogs are from czech lines and require a good nose for tracking bombs


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have heard that Lord Gleisdreieck was a great tracker. My WL female went back to him and though she has some nerve issues that prevented her from being a strong dog in protection, her tracking is naturally the best of all my GSDs so far. I mean, the end result is not that different (not saying my boys are bad trackers) but she's just a natural, very calm, correct pace, methodical, focused. She didn't really need training per se, you can stick her on one end of the track and literally sit back and watch, then go pick her up at the other end.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

My dogs breeder has a couple dogs down from Lord and they are natural trackers. Very neat to watch!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree that Lord has always been a good resource for tracking and hunt drive.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Opps i made a typo lol. Tunnel vision on my phone  what i meant was that tracking dogs are probably Easier to find in wgwl


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Are we talking about strong hunt drive or the ability to perform Schutzhund tracks well? I think the two are not exactly the same though there is overlap.

A lot of the dogs bred by Julia Priest at Sontausen are known for their tracking ability and quite a few are in SAR homes. We have had two Lark nephews on the team (one is gone because he was a very strong dog with a handler who had no control of him-) and Beau is a Lark grandson.

A lot of SAR folks, myself included, have also gravitated towards Czech lines as we have found good nosework in those dogs (yes I know Juila is not Czech and has some interesting lines in some of her dogs - some old Swedish , some West German, even some smattering of Amlines. I have been told Grim z PS brought a good bit of that. I have seen some very balanced Czech dogs who are not overly suspicious and with decent enough thresholds that they don't just go off and perceive a threat not there.

Lord, absolutely, but also I have heard favorably about Mink through Crok and hunt drive.....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lord is a good source but not the only -- there are many many more - this is an area that I am known for .
look at this blog Birch-Bark Hill -- All of them superior tracking , "Spook" , TRUST one of 18 dogs in North America with Urban Track excellent, Blast a new up and comer TD , which was too easy for him, (he should have started with TDX level) ready for Urban, Kira -- .
In the DDR Tino Felsenschloss , the OLD Grafental going back to Bodo with Cay Echoberg (Edi Bibbertal), DDR with Bernd Lierberg 
Racker Itztal, Uwe Kirschental (Asko Schloss Zweibruggen et al) , Chip Kirschberghoff- Castro Grundschnelligkeit and progeny - 
I would include Fero Zeuterner Himmelreich, 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have seen some exceptional tracking dogs coming from Czech/DDR lines, Mink, Fero, Racker (as Carmen mentioned), Körbelbach/Bungalow and then dogs from the same lines that don't have strong natural tracking ability. I think people like Julia get the hunt drive and natural tracking ability because they pay attention to it when breeding and maintain this ability in their dogs and in their breeding program.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

test - prepared detailed post which when submitted was refused for a "security code" yet seconds later I could send this "test" - now I don't have the time to repost --till later


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

carmspack said:


> In the DDR Tino Felsenschloss.....


Siren is line bred 3x3 on Tino.

She is more nose oriented than many scent hounds! Tracking is WAY easy for her, even as a small puppy, with no training necessary.

She also has multiple half siblings and some full siblings that are SAR dogs.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the great info so far. I am surprised to hear about Lord as you primarily hear about his dominance and great aggression you really don't hear about how good of a tracker he was. Very good information.

While looking at PED's and being able to generally make a good guess about nerves, temperament, aggression and prey/defense I noticed that I haven't been taking tracking into effect which I should be.

Thanks for the link to the blog Carmen.

What are your definitions of tracking & hunt drives? I saw it as the same thing but I have a feeling that I am incorrect.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I also have heard that Lord was great for tracking. 

I know that Eagle v Eichenluft, a Lord g-son through Alk, and a Fero g-son through Tiekerhook lines, was one of the best natural tracking dogs I've known. I watched him train tracking throughout much of his career and he was strongly driven to follow that track just for the sake of the track.

I've heard Arec v Bunsenkocher is a dog that brings in high hunt drive. 

I've also gotten very high hunt drive in my current dogs--where is it from though? It's hard to say--Nessel vh Antverpa or Mythus Koerbelbach or Donn vom Dreidörfereck or Sagus v Busecker Schloss? All of the above?

I'm not sure, though, how closely related hunt drive and tracking are. Definitely related... but not the same, I think.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I find this thread interesting as I have a girl who has both Lord and Tino behind her.

Since 8 weeks old this girl has been a tracking champ and I really struggled to get her nose off the ground enough to do obedience at first.

She is strong nerved, stable temperament, social with people and dogs, high prey/defense drives, SUPER high hunt drive and a strong tracking drive. She was a little slow to mature so her bite work was slower to take off, but now at 2 years old, her serious side has made its wonderous debut!

Here is a picture of her tracking in Alaska this past fall.










This dog can seriously track for hours. When this picture was taken we were starting our third track THAT MORNING!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I will concur with the Lord comments - my Kyra was 2-5,5 on Lord and an absolute natural tracker- any style - I despise tracking, and her natural ability carried me through with minimal training...went to work with T Floyd with her before her Sch1, and he loved her...said she was the best progeny of her sire he had ever seen. He especially commented on her resilience as well as her ability to track - our problems were all mine LOL I did not know what the heck I was doing - which I easily conceded. She passed it on, with Csabre being a super natural tracker, Cito, Cougar and Cairo also very talented...2 SAR dogs with super hunt drive, one LE border patrol who is Narcotics and SAR certified....a friend who is a State Trooper did some scent work on asphalt with a Csabre pup, and said she blew everything out of the water he had ever worked with....sigh....I just hate tracking, so I am lucky I can micky mouse my way through with enough to pass LOL Lord for sure is at the top of my list for tracking ability!

Some of the best scoring trackign dogs I have seen are Lord bred (Nathan Fegalhof for one)

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well I'll try again hope it goes through this time --
since Lisa reminded me of "Bungalow" I will add Nanouc Bungalow who is sire of Boris Trogenbach , sire of Flori Berglein , sire of Fero. I also have Boris through other sources , Brix Lambachtal . Long forgotten multi-talented dog from the past Mutz Pelztierfarm who you can follow in a straight paternal line to Enno Beilstein. 

Not to be forgotten as a kennel group -- Maineiche -- which I have used well through Droll von der Schöpf - German Shepherd Dog -- 

one thing is that there is an intelligence to tracking if you allow it to develop , if it is there naturally , and that is the DECISION making that the dog must do - same as herding - DECISION making . If you look at these strong tracking lines you tend to find a background in the genetics for herding. 

The manner in which tracking is taught for schutzhund is not natural , not functional , style-cramping. A dog with true strong tracking will be as happy and enthusiastic , wanting to track , as much as a dog that is ball play crazy.

not as good as first effort -- but here you go 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lord sure did produce them -- Manto Kallenbach , combing the genetics of Uwe-Uran Kirschental to Lord both with old herding backgrounds , Tanne Gleisdreieck , Alk Osterburg Quell.
Looking to Lords background you see Jeff Flamingsand his sire , also Birko Wolfshole . Jeff and Birko figure prominently in my lines , now joined by double Lord females for future combinations.

so you are asking what lines -- how, OP, are you going to know the pup with it when it is shown to you.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

carmspack said:


> A dog with true strong tracking will be as happy and enthusiastic , wanting to track , as much as a dog that is ball play crazy.
> 
> not as good as first effort -- but here you go
> 
> ...


Yep, Siren is definitely not a SchH style tracker! She is like a freight train on a track. Has been since 3 months old. Does if for the JOY of it. Trying to slow her down a bit with food was a waste of food! (And she is a dog that will eat literally ANYTHING.) All that is on her mind is following the scent!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

N Smith,

What your girls pedigree?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

look behind Lord and you will see the progression of tracking ability Jeff , Birko , and here is Utz V Utz von den zwei Steinen - German Shepherd Dog , so beautifully combined with Zorro Laagerwall - Artus Westendhohe , who I have in combination through Fenja who was then bred to Tino Felsenschloss resulting in Dragon . - Muchta Schwarzhorn brings in the Echobergs previously mentioned coming in from haus Iris -- then Muchta bred to V Illa von der Mittelhäuser Flur - German Shepherd Dog who brings in two Lord, two Bodo Grafental (as per haus Iris) . So far this is the sire side of the pedigree. 
The dam is Lord again .
Here is the female I am writing about , a Sandokan bred import Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German Shepherd Dog 
She is the dam of the young female "Kira" on the blog Birch-Bark Hill


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Now THIS dog could track !!!! Orex vom Schwarzen Brink - German Shepherd Dog Orex Schwarzen Brink . As I may have mentioned before , it is my experience that Uwe/Uran Kirschental produced strong natural instinctive trackers .

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, he was a really nice tracker--I remember seeing him in trial.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I had many conversations with his owner John Paver. We were on another list and the topic came up on tracking motivation. Hardest thing trying to get people to believe never mind understand. 
Breed and select for tracking - Julia Priest who has my respect and admiration has developed a line also, known for natural , self motivated tracking . Tracking

I have never started a dog on bait . Not even little 6 and 7 week old pups . Just the track . Reward is being allowed to track , without inhibition or influence . Self rewarding. Of course big praise at end . Put food on the track and they run right over it .

All of the dogs on the Sue Coutts' blog with Trust, Blast (who was doing schutzhund three tracks at 14 weeks) (turns and length ) going like a train full focus, nose down, and Kira selected for specialized detection. 

There should be youtubeys of some of my young dogs tracking where we have crossed water , jumped ditches , gone through brush, had high wind at our back .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you have a chance to visit the the Sontausen link you will see her dogs performing as "farm dogs" , herding, controlling cattle. As I was saying if you look at lines with strong natural tracking ability you will see the bloodlines for old herding lines also. 
One of my dogs when I was just beginning was sent out to "yeulett's" . That female worked on her farm , helped with chores , went on to her herding certificate awarded by the Washington State Australian Cattle dog club (heifers with horns that were particularly obstinate and faced off - yet the dog persisted and "won" !) . This female then produced a litter with an RCMP male (natural instinctive tracking absolute necessity) plus three females SAR certified (RCMP) . The lines are still alive and valued.

Orex - nailed a few 100's . The important thing is how he got there . Not training. His nature .


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

carmspack said:


> so you are asking what lines -- how, OP, are you going to know the pup with it when it is shown to you?


I had actually typed that question and then erased it as I thought it was stupid as it is something that you have a test and I'm sure breeders have a test for this?

Naturally dogs will use their nose and sniff things. How do you tell which one's really have that "tracking bug"? There has to be some characteristics that may give you some sign before you actually test a puppy.

I see a number of breeders always saying that their pups are great for PP, Sport, SAR, K9, etc. But when you talk to them, they mainly tell you about hardness, aggression and temperament. Rarely do you find one that can give you a background on tracking dogs in a PED. At the most they can say, "oh this dog was great at tracking". I wonder then how can you say puppies from litters will eb great at SAR, detection, etc if you don't know the tracking abilities of the dogs in PED's.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What about FHs next to the SchH titles in the pedigrees? My pup was the only one in the litter who sniffed his way and found the place where food bags were stored at the breeders. At 6 weeks  Never had to use food on tracks, either. He's related to BlackGSD's Siren so I guess tracking ability does run in the family


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> N Smith,
> 
> What your girls pedigree?


Lynx vom Lytle - German Shepherd Dog

She also is not one to be slowed down. I actually have to heel her up to the track in a focus, then release her, just so she doesn't start without me being ready with the line. 

During the track I wear gloves with a 25' gripper long line and I have to lean back a little as she is pulling so hard for the track, I would have to run to keep up with her. But even as fast as she is, she won't miss any food put down, is great on corners, and during the few cross tracks she has encountered, her nose never wavered even a bit!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey N Smith , I have a Wendy Sandokan female Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German Shepherd Dog

She has similar genetics as your Lynx -- Tino and xx's haus Iris .

look at this Wendy daughter Ellamar vom Lytle - German Shepherd Dog

that has got to be the reddest red sable dog I have ever seen . (new thread)

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

carmspack said:


> hey N Smith , I have a Wendy Sandokan female Airdrie Hill vom Schmetterling - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> She has similar genetics as your Lynx -- Tino and xx's haus Iris .
> 
> ...


I LOVE Wendy! She brings a lot of great things to her puppies. Her current handler is 11 or 12 years old, and has put a ScH 3 on her, last year I think. I go to train with Ironhide's breeders a few times a year, so I have met Wendy multiple times, she is really an all around great working dog.

I love these lines:wub:


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

N Smith said:


> Lynx vom Lytle - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> She also is not one to be slowed down. I actually have to heel her up to the track in a focus, then release her, just so she doesn't start without me being ready with the line.
> 
> During the track I wear gloves with a 25' gripper long line and I have to lean back a little as she is pulling so hard for the track, I would have to run to keep up with her. But even as fast as she is, she won't miss any food put down, is great on corners, and during the few cross tracks she has encountered, her nose never wavered even a bit!


I was wondering how she is bred since their male "Othello" is a littermate to Sirens dam.


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