# People who have a problem with prong/pinch



## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sorry, this is long, but I need to vent.

I have a serious issue with ignorant people (TRAINERS) who have a problem with the prong/pinch collar. Okay, it's one thing if you prefer not to use it as a tool to train with, but to be rude about it is a whole 'nother thing...

Today, I took Berlin out to run errands with me, we went to 3 pet stores, one being the local dog speciality store, and then petco/petsmart. I had his prong collar on, because I really am trying to get him under control around other dogs/people. He gets WAAAY too excited, and being 70 pounds, well he's basically dragging me around. Nobody had a problem with him wearing the prong at the first two places, but then we went to Petsmart :smirk:

He has been going to basic classes there for a little bit, with one trainer. Obviously I know these trainers aren't the best, but thats not what was important. I wanted to get him to class to be around other puppies/dogs/people. It was useful in that sense. Plus, he learned alot of basic obedience commands. 

Well a few months ago, I bought a prong there, because the breeder told me to so I could correct him around the cats. The manager saw me looking at them, and told the trainer, and they both came over and 'lectured' me and freaked out on me basically. Um, alright. Whatever, so I still bought the collar because my dog is not a soft dog and really needs a hard correction to learn right from wrong in SOME cases (cat chasing, jumping up on people to greet, and getting too excited around other dogs) Those three situations are the only thing I use it for so far. Well the trainer has been mentioning it since about how I really dont need it, I can work through all my problems with positive training (which, I may, but it will take years). I dont have years. Berlin is 70 pounds, he is BIG, and I am SMALL. Hence, why he wore his prong today, while we were out. Well the lady saw me, and came over to MAKE SURE he was wearing it, and when she saw he was, she gave me a dirty look and walked away. 

Like seriously? It isnt HURTING HIM. If anything the constant pulling while wearing his normal nylon collar is doing MORE damage. How does she think I am going to get this pulling under control? There is no "Hey Berlin, WATCH ME!!" "GOOD BOY!" and distract him completely from ALL THE DOGS THERE. He doesnt care, he wants to play with other dogs. With the prong, he learns that a) pulling isnt acceptable, right away, and b) barking is also not acceptable, right away. Then he ignores the dog, and gets praised. What is so wrong with this?????????  I dont like to be made to feel like im torturing my dog, cause IM NOT. I need to correct these behaviors NOW, not slowly. He cannot act this way in public, its embarrassing. He needs to learn its NOT ACCEPTABLE. 

For everything else, he is rewarded with food, and clicker trained. But, I will not have my dog learn that pulling me around in public is okay, if he pulled me down and hurt me, or hurt another dog, is that acceptable? 

And my dog doesnt have issues, I know this, but if I wait and train her way, he will learn this is acceptable because training her way will take forever! 

Like Berlins breeder said, these dogs are tough - they can take a tough correction. Only rewarding him when hes doing something right isnt enough sometimes. 

And, another thing I got lectured about, was how hes going to resent me because im hurting him, and he knows i'm hurting him, and all his behaviors will ONLY get worse, not better.

UGH! Needed to let this out because it really irritates me.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I feel the same... It bothers me that SO many people seem ignorant in regards to these collars even people like Victoria Stilwell are promoting them as torture devices. I agree that choke collars are dangerous but prongs are a lot safer then nylon collars even if you use them right.

We're not allowed to use them in my OB class I'm doing right now and it's frustrating because that means Ollie gets to pull all over the place and act like an idiot.

We're working on focus and positive training methods but I can't always stay at a distance, I have to take him for walks and to class and southern California is CROWDED(at least the part I live in) it's really hard to be somewhere far away from other people and dogs while we work on his barking at other dogs issue.

I use the prong to help me in less then ideal situations coupled with positive training. 

Have you seen these?Secret Power

If I hadn't just bought an expensive sprenger prong(which btw are way better quality then the petco ones) from Leerburg I'd get one.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never had a dog that i needed to use a prong or pinch
collar on. i think a lot of people look forward to usuing a device
as opposed to using training.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I love the Secret Power prongs. Below is a pic of him wearing it. 
My vet was very impressed when I told him that what he commented was a "fancy schmanzy" collar was a secret prong 

Hans is young, and Czech line, and way stronger than I. I am petite and don't weigh all that much, and it would be seriously dangerous if I had him on a flat collar in certain situations. He could easily dislocate my shoulder, or break away.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We have 3 secret power prong collars. Before we used pet store prongs and we are lucky Ranger recalled when his came apart during a walk, with a car coming from each direction in the intersection DW was approaching. She came home scared that she almost lost him. We ordered the first one and liked it. Since we regularly walk all 3 dogs together we ordered 2 more.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i've never had a dog that i needed to use a prong or pinch
> collar on. i think a lot of people look forward to usuing a device
> as opposed to using training.


Not everyone is exactly like you or your dog. 
So you can't really say what people can or can't "look forward to."


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> Have you seen these?Secret Power
> 
> If I hadn't just bought an expensive sprenger prong(which btw are way better quality then the petco ones) from Leerburg I'd get one.


You can use the Sprenger links inside the Secret Power collar. 
I think Kaye might adjust the price if you just ordered the cover.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Just do what you need to do and ignore other people. It's your dog and it's your right to train it as long as there's no abuse 

I've been surprised that I haven't had anyone say or look funny at me when he's wearing his prong. I'm in the same boat where I'm barely 5' and it's more for IF he wants to misbehave I have the ability to stop it


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Katie, I wonder how the managers at Petsmart would feel, knowing the trainers"They" hire are knocking a collar petsmart sells? 

It's like working for a chevy dealer and telling people NOT to buy a chevy? (only comparison I could come up with quickly LOL)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Just do what you need to do and ignore other people.


Exactly.

People think everyone's situation is identical to theirs, and that what works for them and their dog would work for everyone.

This is like parenting. 

Everyone's situation, and mileage, varies.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Use what works for your dog. Use it responsibly. Learn from a reputable instructor. But, ultimately take the time to teach your dog to control himself without the prong.

Dog training is all about what works for the dog at that time/situation.

Yea, I got that lecture at petsmart too!! lol...Once you are more sure of yourself..and your dog is behaving, focusing on you while their customers' dogs are going nuts...you wont concern yourself with the petsmart folk.!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The secret prong is a sweet idea. 

I get some funny looks from people who don't understand the need for prong. I don't use it so much but one of my dogs is mad for cats so I'm trying to train her out of that.

On regular collars(say an inch and a half), I find if you fit it tightly and close to the dogs skull you can have more control than when the collar is half way up the neck


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Not everyone is exactly like you or your dog.
> So you can't really say what people can or can't "look forward to."


Exactly I am barely 5'1, also pretty small and have grip issues with my left hand from nerve damage. Honestly even if my dog was very well trained(he's only 6 months old right now though) I feel like it would be irresponsible of me to only have him on a flat lead. Well trained or not accidents happen.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> You can use the Sprenger links inside the Secret Power collar.
> I think Kaye might adjust the price if you just ordered the cover.


Really? Cool, I will look into that.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Pink one is Tukes, blue is for Ranger, and the reddish one is Zoey's.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> Exactly I am barely 5'1, also pretty small and have grip issues with my left hand from nerve damage. Honestly even if my dog was very well trained(he's only 6 months old right now though) I feel like it would be irresponsible of me to only have him on a flat lead. Well trained or not accidents happen.


I have hand problems, too-- lots of pain in my finger joints. 
Sometimes I have him on the flat collar and he only pulls slightly, and the pain is so bad that I have to grit my teeth.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I have back issues. Without a prong, Grim could do even more damage to my back. He's having his "'issue time", and training is ongoing. He's stronger than I am already, and before he hit 6 months this wasn't an issue. With him becoming more handler protective, I'd be totally stupid to take him out on a flat collar!


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm sorry people gave you a hard time for it.

As a Recovered Prong-Hater, I used to think that they were horrible torture devices. I now know better.

I got that lecture a lot using a CC, but it was what was needed at that time.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> You can use the Sprenger links inside the Secret Power collar.
> I think Kaye might adjust the price if you just ordered the cover.


So if we already have prongs, we can put them into the cover they supply?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

If people would mind their own business they wouldn't have time to mind yours.

Tell them the next time you want their opinion you'll ask for it.

God I hate busybodies


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So if we already have prongs, we can put them into the cover they supply?


Should be able to, they just slip in.


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## BellaLuna (Jan 27, 2013)

Listen who is anyone to judge what works best for them and their dogs, I personally don't use 1 b/c Bella walks well on lead but if she didn't I wouldn't think twice as about it 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So if we already have prongs, we can put them into the cover they supply?


Technically.

I do not know if she just sells the collar by itself.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ours. 
Red and blue.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I made my own version of a "secret prong." I started out with making a prong collar cover, but the way it covered the chain was awkward. So I started coming up with ideas and made what was perfect for me. I use it mostly with Tessa during work, she's my service dog. People think that her wearing a prong means she isn't properly trained. It means I'm disabled and in an emergency I want my emergency brake! Plus I like how I can give invisible corrections if she does something she shouldn't, and not need to give a dramatic leash yank.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> I use the prong to help me in less then ideal situations coupled with positive training.


I do the same, and not for really much training either. Like I said those three things basically. And yeah I know the HS ones are 10X better, I just needed one on the fly for the cat issues and wanted to first see how'd he even react to a prong before dropping 50 bucks on a nice one. A HS is next on the list. But regardless, he NEVER has it on without his other collar on also. 



doggiedad said:


> i've never had a dog that i needed to use a prong or pinch
> collar on. i think a lot of people look forward to usuing a device
> as opposed to using training.


I am training my dog? I said I use it for 3 issues. I did not 'look forward' to training with a 'device' either, it took me a while to give in and actually buy one. And all it does it make the correction instant. I still have to train my dog to do what I want? I dont plan on him having this on forever when we are out in public. Lucky you that your dogs dont need one, but everyone's situation is different. 



Sunflowers said:


> I love the Secret Power prongs. Below is a pic of him wearing it.
> My vet was very impressed when I told him that what he commented was a "fancy schmanzy" collar was a secret prong
> 
> Hans is young, and Czech line, and way stronger than I. I am petite and don't weigh all that much, and it would be seriously dangerous if I had him on a flat collar in certain situations. He could easily dislocate my shoulder, or break away.


Wow, those are pretty cool, i've seen em on here before...Maybe ill order one of those... I am tiny also. Berlin weighs 30 pounds less than me, at 8 months old. I agree it *could* be dangerous if I don't correct this now, and show him how I want him to behave. I feel like Berlin HAS almost dislocated my shoulder. :crazy: Anyways...GSD's are working breeds, and have a high threshold to pain, a prong correction (and I don't even correct really, he does by pulling) is not going to hurt him. Its merely "uncomfortable". People need to read about tools, thats why I'm appalled that a trainer thinks i'm hurting my dog. They should know!



JakodaCD OA said:


> Katie, I wonder how the managers at Petsmart would feel, knowing the trainers"They" hire are knocking a collar petsmart sells?
> 
> It's like working for a chevy dealer and telling people NOT to buy a chevy? (only comparison I could come up with quickly LOL)


THAT'S THE THING! When I bought the collar, the MANAGER was questioning me! And went and TATTLED on me to the trainer. Unbelievable! If they hate it so much, why DO they sell 3 different kinds there, PLUS choke chains and e-collars and bark collars??????



Shade said:


> Just do what you need to do and ignore other people. It's your dog and it's your right to train it as long as there's no abuse
> 
> I've been surprised that I haven't had anyone say or look funny at me when he's wearing his prong. *I'm in the same boat where I'm barely 5' and it's more for IF he wants to misbehave I have the ability to stop it*


That right there. I would rather have the prong on and feel in control, then not have it on, and be dragged around, having him act how he wants. 



Sunflowers said:


> People think everyone's situation is identical to theirs, and that what works for them and their dog would work for everyone.
> 
> This is like parenting.
> 
> Everyone's situation, and mileage, varies.


True, I think this trainer is so used to small dogs, and labs and what not, that she doesn't even know HOW to train a working dog. Sure, a prong on a chi is weird to me.. but come on, a GSD is a strong WORKING dog, sometimes they need more than positive reinforcement. And, they are a dominant type of dog naturally, if you dont let them know how they are supposed to act, they will use this to their advantage and find every way to test you, and see what they can get away with. Id rather nip it in the bud now, so he behaves well.



ponyfarm said:


> Use what works for your dog. Use it responsibly. Learn from a reputable instructor. But, ultimately take the time to teach your dog to control himself without the prong.
> 
> Dog training is all about what works for the dog at that time/situation.
> 
> Yea, I got that lecture at petsmart too!! lol...Once you are more sure of yourself..and your dog is behaving, focusing on you while their customers' dogs are going nuts...you wont concern yourself with the petsmart folk.!


Thats what I am working on, like I said he doesnt wear this all the time when we are out. He is a smart dog, I corrected him once with the cats, and now he *listens* to me when I tell him no, when he tries to go in the cats room. He doesnt have the prong on with that anymore. Once he LEARNS that jumping on people/pulling me so he can go say hi to a dog is not acceptable to me, and he knows what I want him to do instead ( I praised him today when he ignored a dog) I plan on weaning him off the prong. The petsmart folk can be nuts, lol.



Shaolin said:


> I'm sorry people gave you a hard time for it.
> 
> As a Recovered Prong-Hater, I used to think that they were horrible torture devices. I now know better.
> 
> I got that lecture a lot using a CC, but it was what was needed at that time.


LOL, Recovered Prong-Hater! :wild: 



MichaelE said:


> If people would mind their own business they wouldn't have time to mind yours.
> 
> Tell them the next time you want their opinion you'll ask for it.
> 
> God I hate busybodies


Ugh yeah I know. Unfortunately, I have to deal with this lady on Tuesday for his last day of class. I already know I am going to get an earful, but honestly, if she's going to lecture me AGAIN, i'm going to LECTURE HER. Theres a fine line between having an opinion, and being plain out disrespectful to your paying customers.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Lin said:


> Plus I like how I can give invisible corrections if she does something she shouldn't, and not need to give a dramatic leash yank.


Yep, it makes it a lot less dramatic, and easier on my hands. Plus, my butthead doesnt care for a normal leash yank, it doesnt phase him. It moreso chokes him...so the prong is safer for me and HIM, so he doesnt choke him self. Instead, he gets a tiny correction, and behaves..


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

I have tried a choker, flat collar and harness. Our walks were very stressful. Harley pulled constantly practically choking himself. Plus we had some other issues. I tried a prong and now use it whenever we leave the house. It is the only thing that he will respond to. Our walks are calm and relaxing. If he starts anything, one little jerk of my hand and he is right back in line. He does like to mice watch in the fields while walking and pounces on a spot. I have to becareful of this so he doesn't yank too hard. But I love our prong and it has made handling him so much better. I feel that if someone doesn't like it, then that is their opinion. It has worked wonders for Harley and that is all that matters to me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i've never had a dog that i needed to use a prong or pinch
> collar on. i think a lot of people look forward to usuing a device
> as opposed to using training.


 
I am guessing from your handle that you might be a man? Probably a LOT stronger (and probably a LOT more experienced in hndling dogs as well?) than some of the folks on here who use a prong collar? Maybe?

A prong gives a small and/or weaker person a MUCH better chance of controlling a large unruly dog BEFORE they are trained. BTW, afterward even that person may not need to use one. 

A prong is an effective useful tool - it is really too bad tht so many people are so emotional (without the real facts in most cases as well) about such a useful tool.

Do you use a slip collar or do you just use a flat buckle leather collar?


If you use a slip collar, then maybe one should read somethingabout them, or better talk to a person who knows prongs, or even better try one of each on your arm and give a hard correction and see which one is actually more potentially hurtful to a dogs neck.

HINT: It ain't the prong!

Anyway just one person's biased opinion as I have needed, used one and have seen the almost mgical impact it had on my then unruly 90 lb male GSD. (When I was undergoing knee replacement surgery in both knees and actually did not have the same strength in my legs for quite a long while).


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Lin said:


> I made my own version of a "secret prong." I started out with making a prong collar cover, but the way it covered the chain was awkward. So I started coming up with ideas and made what was perfect for me. I use it mostly with Tessa during work, she's my service dog. People think that her wearing a prong means she isn't properly trained. It means I'm disabled and in an emergency I want my emergency brake! Plus I like how I can give invisible corrections if she does something she shouldn't, and not need to give a dramatic leash yank.


Can you take a pic of what you did or tell us what you did? Fiona wears a prong collar every time we go out. Because she helps me with mobility, I cannot have her pulling. My friend thought it was horrible. I let het take Fiona without it and Fiona was a nut. Quickly converted ... But not for her 5 pound out of control yippy dog.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Sure! I actually posted it on here. A lot of people were interested so I've thought about making them to sell. It was a lot of work though lol. My design was for my specific wants and concerns, and also partially by what hardware I already had on hand when I finally got down to doing it haha. So I also may make some subtle changes again, not sure. It works great though and looks great too. 

I make and sell a lot of items, cat collars, leather leashes and collars, etc. I'm disabled so I need the extra income from home. I don't mind helping anyone along making their own though! Answering any questions or giving any tips. Most of the stuff I make I started because it was cheaper to make myself than buy it and I didn't have the money to be buying the expensive stuff I wanted haha. 

Heres mine:









With more pictures and some info on how I did it here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/168276-had-show-off-my-custom-prong.html


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

That's a really nice looking cover and probably a lot less risk of the prong links snapping off while walking. 

Also, I can't stop watching your avatar lol... Those seagulls are crafty little devils.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs _could _drag me around if they knew they could, prong or no prong. They don't. 

I don't use prong collars. I have some. I got one for Dubya when I was going to have surgery on my wrist. Only, when my wrist was messed up, I couldn't open it and put it on him. Well, that worked, NOT. 

I am not a man, and am not stronger. I am an older woman. But I do have a physical problem with my hands. They both have carpal tunnel probably caused by thyroid disease. Anyhow, I had surgery on my right one and a fat lot of good that did, now for the five years since the surgery, two of my fingers are still sleeping. Lovely. Whatever. I still drop things. One of the things I may drop with either hand is the dog's leash. 

A prong collar is absolutely useless if the leash is no longer in your hand. Well, unless you step on it quick and the dog gets a good undeserved correction. 

So prong collars just aren't useful for me. Instead, I teach my dogs to come back to me if I drop the lead. I take longer to teach them to walk nice on a lead, because I use a martingale usually, or a flat collar. After they are trained, I might use a chain martingale or a choke, but not really for the ability to give corrections, just because that might be whats on the end of the lead. I have a couple of 10 month olds that I had out for the first time in months the other day, and I was surprised how they really weren't pulling on the lead. They were on flat collars. I am not sure why, they have never been to classes yet, leash must have been a new thing. 

I guess that it is true that it is better to use a correction collar than to struggle or fight with a dog, but I don't like the use of them on younger puppies. I agree a little with doggiedad on this that some people anticipate the use of the prong. I have people asking me when their pups are 8 weeks old when they should start using a prong. I find them totally unnecessary with my dogs, but my puppy buyers do use them. And I figure if it helps them manage the dog then they should just go ahead and use them. Why worry about what others think about them.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Carriesue said:


> That's a really nice looking cover and probably a lot less risk of the prong links snapping off while walking.
> 
> Also, I can't stop watching your avatar lol... Those seagulls are crafty little devils.


Thanks! And yep, no need for a backup collar in addition because theres nothing to come undone and fall off. 

I could watch it over and over LOL. It can be mesmerizing. 

selzer, I have some similar issues. Carpal tunnel is the median nerve, but I have ulnar nerve damage in both arms. My last 2 fingers lack feeling and I lack fine motor control in my hands. Then I also have issues with muscle spasms that make the dropping things constantly worse. I have issues using a prong the "normal" way of squeezing the links to take it on and off. But I still find my prong collars VERY useful, and have quick release ones in addition to the prong I posted here. If theres no need for a prong collar, there's no need. But they can still be useful with the difficulties you mentioned.

When Tessa is working, I use a handsfree leash that goes over my shoulder so I never have to worry about dropping it. If I'm holding Emma or Tessa's leash and drop it, I just tell them to stop and wait, or recall them closer and pick up the leash.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lin, I have a good sized pack of dogs right now, none of them need a prong collar. Not sure why. I certainly do not spend as much time training them as people who have one or two. When I take them somewhere, they are ready to go, and excited to go, but I don't have any trouble controlling them, and they stop and wait if I drop the lead. So far I have been able to keep them safe without a prong collar. I have one. I also have a quick release one. I don't know where it is. I really don't think it would be very helpful for me. The way it works is that this tiny clip goes into the chain links. You have to have fine motor skills and hand eye coordination to make it work, and then if you bump it the wrong way, it will open -- no I will go with my quick release martingales. They just snap together -- much easier for me.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

codmaster said:


> I am guessing from your handle that you might be a man? Probably a LOT stronger (and probably a LOT more experienced in hndling dogs as well?) than some of the folks on here who use a prong collar? Maybe?
> 
> A prong gives a small and/or weaker person a MUCH better chance of controlling a large unruly dog BEFORE they are trained. BTW, afterward even that person may not need to use one.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:



selzer said:


> My dogs _could _drag me around if they knew they could, prong or no prong. They don't.
> 
> I don't use prong collars. I have some. I got one for Dubya when I was going to have surgery on my wrist. Only, when my wrist was messed up, I couldn't open it and put it on him. Well, that worked, NOT.
> 
> ...


Selzer, thats awesome that your dogs dont pull, maybe they know your condition?! They do have a sixth sense ya know  Anyways, I agree with you on the whole using them too young. I didnt use one on Berlin until he was older than 6 months. I wouldnt ever use one on an 8 week old puppy?!  They are too little still....But yep, why worry what others think..I just think its rude that a trainer who I pay is giving me dirty looks and lectures because of how I choose to train my dog. She has her opinions, and I have mine.

Lin, that collar is pretty cool for being homemade! Good job! Also yes, your avatar is very distracting, I caught myself watching it for like 2 minutes. LOL i'm tired.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you guys use back up leads in case your prong falls off? Also, I'd be curious to hear about anyone who's had a dog panic or flip-out on a prong. For instance, if a dog were to get really defensive towards an aggressive dog etc. What do you do in a situation like that? do you switch to your secondary leash and collar or do you keep holding onto the one attached to the prong? I'm just wondering whether a it could be damaging to a dog if you kept holding onto a prong in a situation like that.

Also, the prong, as I understand it, is a training tool, not a replacement for a regular collar, once the dog learns to stop pulling after a period of time, you switch back to a regular collar, is that correct?

I totally empathise with some of the people who have posted on here. I plan on getting a prong colar soon and I have heard stories of people being bullied and lied to about it's legitimacy. I'm in Australia and so far I know that the state of Victoria has banned the collar. You have to order them online, no pet stores carry them here in NSW for some reason, and the staff are quite shocked if you ask them.

I also liked one of the points the OP made about trying to use distractions to divert the attention of a dog pulling on a leash. A lot of the times it just does not work. On little things yes, say if the dog is distracted by a person or something else that is a lower level distraction. But take a highly prey driven dog near a house full of cats, like I have, and try to distract them then. Doesn't work to well. Which brings me to my point, when what you have to offer your dog, whether it be a treat or a toy or your own affection, is less interesting to the dog then WHATEVER it may be distracted by, you simply no longer have control over the dog. This is the fundamental contradiction of the "positive only" camp - people like this are not proofing their dog. Sometimes teaching your dog that it SHOULD do something isn't enough, sometimes your dog NEEDS to learn that it MUST do something.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Do you guys use back up leads in case your prong falls off? Also, I'd be curious to hear about anyone who's had a dog panic or flip-out on a prong. For instance, if a dog were to get really defensive towards an aggressive dog etc. What do you do in a situation like that? do you switch to your secondary leash and collar or do you keep holding onto the one attached to the prong? I'm just wondering whether a it could be damaging to a dog if you kept holding onto a prong in a situation like that.
> 
> Also, the prong, as I understand it, is a training tool, not a replacement for a regular collar, once the dog learns to stop pulling after a period of time, you switch back to a regular collar, is that correct?
> 
> ...


Yes, I use a back up collar. And if my dog is in a situation with the prong on and hes around an aggressive dog, simple..I remove him from the situation. I wouldnt keep him around an aggressive dog. And you probably will have to slowly transition back to a normal collar, I havent done it yet, so not sure. Some dogs become "collar wise", and know to behave when the prong is on, and not behave when its off. I only use the prong in a few situations, the rest of the time he has a normal collar on. 

Really bizarre that the prong is banned where you are. It's a useful tool, if used properly...and I read online, that out of all collars, its one of the safest for the dogs neck/throat, because the pressure is distributed evenly. Also, the prongs should be dull, not sharp.

And I agree with your last paragraph, my dog has extremely high prey drive. There is NO snapping him outta his zone once hes in pursuit of a kitty. So they are completely separated for now. I used the prong to correct him maybe 4 times total with the cats. He now knows the kitty room is OFF limits unless he is invited in BY ME to focus on me in their presence. He does extremely well. Also, sometimes a dog needs to learn what its NOT supposed to be doing, as well as what you WANT it to do..

With my situation with the dogs in the petstores, we come across all sorts of dogs,some aggressive, some fearful etc. This is all new to Berlin. He doesnt know how to act, he just wants to playplayplay! But it is not allowed all the time, he has to learn its only allowed when I allow it. Now, today for example, he was relentless at barking at one dog. If I didnt have the prong on, he would have pulled, until he was basically choking himself! There were dogs everywhere too - but he had the prong on, and I corrected him (or more so, he corrected himself) stopped...and we went about our business. We walk past another dog - he ignored it, and was praised by me.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> You can use the Sprenger links inside the Secret Power collar.
> I think Kaye might adjust the price if you just ordered the cover.


She will adjust the price - $5 less 
It took a lot of back and forth to get her to do it tho  
I was pretty disappointed, I asked if it was possible to have one sent without prongs - rather than yes or no I got a 
"oh I've sent many to Australia without a problem" and "I have emailed some of my other customers and they all got their collars with the prongs in"

I nearly gave up on trying to get one without prongs in it - it's only the fact that I really like the look of the collars that made me persevere. I just want it as a martingale collar because it looks nice 

Maybe if a few more people ask for them without prongs in it (and face it unless she's using sprenger prongs already you most likely would replace them with springier ones anyway) she may offer it as an option


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Also, the prong, as I understand it, is a training tool, not a replacement for a regular collar, once the dog learns to stop pulling after a period of time, you switch back to a regular collar, is that correct?


Yep - if you read the Sprenger catalogue it states very clearly that the prong collar is a training tool and should only be used short term to correct problems.

And yeah prongs are illegal in some states in Australia. I would not want to walk my dog down the street with one on - you would get so much trouble from people because they never see prong collars here.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do use a prong I don't like head halters. But this does raise some interesting points, particularly about location of prong-because high on the neck is where it is recommended to be used:

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Can collars really damage the thyroid?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That's something I had never seen. 

How does the prong work?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdlover91 said:


> Nobody had a problem with him wearing the prong at the first two places, but then we went to Petsmart :smirk:
> 
> He has been going to basic classes there for a little bit, with one trainer. Obviously I know these trainers aren't the best, but thats not what was important. I wanted to get him to class to be around other puppies/dogs/people. It was useful in that sense. Plus, he learned alot of basic obedience commands.
> 
> Well a few months ago, I bought a prong there, because the breeder told me to so I could correct him around the cats. The manager saw me looking at them, and told the trainer, and they both came over and 'lectured' me and freaked out on me basically.


I have had a completely different experience at Petsmart. My last two dogs have taken all of their classes there with a wonderful trainer. I love her, my dogs love her. I also know thats not the norm. I have actually become friends with her Anyway, I wanted to try a GSD club and their rules were that the dog had to have a prong. I went to petsmart and the other trainer there got down on the floor with my dog and fitted her for her prong. There was no lecturing or anything. Maybe its because they know me well? My trainer was excited to hear how my dog did at the club and she has never once knocked me for using it and she is a positive trainer. I did have another trainer from another place give me a hard time, but she did it in more of a joking way and didn't push the issue. I don't prefer prongs collars, but I will use them. Oddly enough I have never had to correct her, she doesn't do anything wrong for me to correct her. I just use it at places that require it or if I'm going somewhere she might get more excited then usual. She has worn it maybe 5 times. I just got my golden one and its the same thing with him, he didn't need the correction, he corrected himself when he started to pull. I can walk both of them together with no problems, so I guess they can come in handy


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

gsdlover91 said:


> LOL, Recovered Prong-Hater! :wild:


 
Yeah. First time I ever saw a prong used, the guy did a yank and crank. The dog bled everywhere and was screaming in pain. I was young, maybe 10-12 at the time. I refused to ever consider using one. I took a "collar class" when our rescued Chow/Husky nearly killed himself spinning on a CC. I learned how to use a prong properly and why it was used. Baxter used a prong for almost a year and now he walks properly on a CC and sometimes even a flat. I even helped to train my uncles' GSD/Mastif mix because he definately needed a prong. Moe-Moe never "graduated" to a CC or Flat, but he was never injured or hurt by the collar an it allowed him to walk in public without fear of being dragged around.

I didn't need one with Finn as he learned leash manners pretty quick with the CC. We use a Martingale now, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a prong if I needed to.

So, yes. I'm very well recovered.


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## Maya27 (Oct 2, 2012)

We have had similar issues and Petsmart employees are ALWAYS the worst. I think they are encouraged to butt in as much as possible so they can teach folks the error of their ways by forcing them to join (usually terrible and useless) Petsmart training classes. 

I have also had some encounters with rescue groups when I go to our favorite doggy boutique who comment on what a nice behaved puppy I have, but that I NEED to ditch the prong and get a halti or a harness. 
I just ignored it. 

First of all.. every dog I have seen wear a halti was screaming in terror, trying to rip the thing off their face and having it dig into their eyes, so no. 

I think the simple thing that people need to get is that ANY training tool used incorrectly can hurt the dog and used properly can be invaluable and will NOT hurt the dog. 

My puppy got a prong, but not until she was 6 months old. I have always used prongs and think they are very effective, but ONLY for walking. I want training to be FUN FUN FUN so no prong! For walking it is a matter of safety.. if I am walking my 60lb puppy and our 80 lb rottie mix together and they see a herd of deer, I feel MUCH more confident in my ability to hold them if they are wearing prongs, not because they hurt them, but because they know they need to act better when prongs are on and they don't even TRY to pull.

WITH THAT SAID...

Lately I have been educating myself and in many ways converting to this newfangled positive only training style and I have slowly phased out the prong collar on my now 9 month old puppy because it simply was not effective. 

I would let her self correct and even correct her somewhat strongly at times and she IGNORED and pulled even harder until it got to a point where I was correcting her out of ANGER and not for training purposes. Because of my own frustration I realized I was no longer able to use the collar as an effective training tool, so I ditched it. 

Surprisingly (when I only walk her) she now pulls MUCH LESS without the prong and with simple commands and a LOT of work, we have very pleasant experiences walking. 

So, I don't think there is a point to my story, but I agree that people that annoy others about prongs without knowing ANYTHING about their training history or issues are just being bullheaded and have not done their research about ALL methods of training. I think that some owners should not use prongs and many dogs could easily do well without them if their owners put time into training, but some dogs NEED PRONGS and do wonderfully with them. 

/rant.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Maya27 said:


> I would let her self correct and even correct her somewhat strongly at times and she IGNORED and pulled even harder until it got to a point where I was correcting her out of ANGER and not for training purposes. Because of my own frustration I realized I was no longer able to use the collar as an effective training tool, so I ditched it.


Not trying to get you to use one again just asking out of curiosity but did you have the prong fitted properly? They need to be very snug sitting quite high on the neck behind the dogs ears, if they are wearing it very loose around the bottom of their neck it will not have the same effect.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Maya27 said:


> We have had similar issues and Petsmart employees are ALWAYS the worst. I think they are encouraged to butt in as much as possible so they can teach folks the error of their ways by forcing them to join (usually terrible and useless) Petsmart training classes.
> 
> 
> /rant.


This is so untrue. You can say sometimes but not always. I have never had these issues at Petsmart and I almost feel like I have to defend them on here. They have been nothing but wonderful with me and my pets. They approach me because they know me, but I have never seen them approaching anyone and butting in unless asked. I have never got information from them that was incorrect. So I don't know how lots of people have these bad experiences here, but my Petsmart is awesome. On the other hand I avoid Petco, because they seem to be less helpful and knowledgeable, but that is only my opinion.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I just wanted to say that I also use a sense-ation harness for my pup and it works really well for not pulling on walks at least for me. When it comes to other dogs though the prong is more more useful in keeping his focus on me.

We are taking a class at a local obedience club and we will be covering loose leash walking which I'm excited about! I've tried on my own but Ollie is a hard stubborn dog, he is getting better on the leash though. A lot of people talk about how great martingales are, well... I've tried one and all he did was pull harder and choke himself more and the noise it made had absolutely no affect on him.

I think the main mistake I made when I first got him was walking him with my golden who he's very bonded to... He did not want the golden to be far away from him or ahead of him so he'd pull like crazy trying to get to him. Now while I'm working on him being polite on lead I have stopped walking them together for now.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Katie, I wonder how the managers at Petsmart would feel, knowing the trainers"They" hire are knocking a collar petsmart sells?


The managers would fully agree - corporate policy is that they aren't allowed to be used in any training class ran by PetCo or PetsMart. The trainers' job is to actively (aggressively) approach any customer looking at prongs and get them signed up for a class at the store.


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## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

I was told by my trainer that I could not pull hard enough on the prong to hurt my dog. Your dog sounds like mine with the same three issues lol! My problem is I don't correct hard enough.


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't go to Pet smart very often as they are farther away but last time I was there they were really nice and did not harass me for classes(had my golden with me). But I have been in one before where they would not leave me alone. I don't usually go to Petco either, they seem to just not give a  there, we never even get asked if we need help just get ignored.

I just go to the local small speciality non chain stores nearby, WAY friendlier and they carry better and higher quality products.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> The managers would fully agree - corporate policy is that they aren't allowed to be used in any training class ran by PetCo or PetsMart. The trainers' job is to actively (aggressively) approach any customer looking at prongs and get them signed up for a class at the store.


It is correct that they do not use or allow them for training. My dog was in classes there when I purchased the prong collar. The other trainer and one of the associates fitted my dog for the prong collar with no problem or lecture. I see dogs all the time in there with prongs and choke collars and no one approaches anyone. It is definitely not all Petsmarts that do this stuff, because I know for a fact that mine doesn't.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> I do use a prong I don't like head halters. But this does raise some interesting points, particularly about location of prong-because high on the neck is where it is recommended to be used:
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Can collars really damage the thyroid?


Interesting, I'd want to see some studies on this. Personally, I would think the most damage would be done by flat collars that put pressure completely against the front of the neck when the dog pulls. As opposed to a prong or martingale that distributes pressure evenly around the neck. 

I think head halters are training tools and have their place, but find them to be more dangerous when used incorrectly. You cannot give a leash correction to a dog wearing a head halter but I see people doing it all the time. The dog pulls, and the owner yanks, and the dogs neck does a quick whiplash move. 

I'd rather see any dog walking calmly next to an individual in a prong than choking themselves in a flat collar.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i follow the lead of a guy that taught me to train a cutting horse, the fancy high leverage bits that the horse learns to escape from are what you use if you are to lazy to train properly. i think the analogy applies to gadgets in dog training.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I totally respect your decision to use a prong! You know what is best for *your* dog.

Our first GSD mix was an excellent dog, in most cases she did not even need a leash. However in certain situations, and new places that were exciting and fun, she would pull. If I did not use a prong, I'd probably have shoulder surgery by now.

Today with Molly we were in a situation that caused her some fear. We were not wearing the prong, so it was a walk with constant commands, stay, heel ,come - very unrelaxing. Should have worn the prong. 

It is amazing how many people think they are experts with dogs or dog training. I hope you can ignore them. I hope at some point your dog will not need a prong in certain situations, but it is a good tool to keep everyone safe.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

x11 said:


> i follow the lead of a guy that taught me to train a cutting horse, the fancy high leverage bits that the horse learns to escape from are what you use if you are to lazy to train properly. i think the analogy applies to gadgets in dog training.


:thumbup: I can understand the use of a prong collar to enforce a behavior the dog already knows. To sharpen the response. But not to shape a behavior.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

x11 said:


> i follow the lead of a guy that taught me to train a cutting horse, the fancy high leverage bits that the horse learns to escape from are what you use if you are to lazy to train properly. i think the analogy applies to gadgets in dog training.


When it comes to bits that offer leverage, the purpose is actually to be used on higher level trained horses to allow for a higher level of training and more subtle signals. 

In a way your analogy is true, because the prong can be used to allow for more subtle signals to a trained dog. But bits are not a training aid, while a prong collar is. It just can be used as more than just a training aid, but a curb bit should never be used as a training aid. 

If a horse is trying to escape a curb, neither the horse or the rider are currently ready for a curb.


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## Maya27 (Oct 2, 2012)

Llombardo, Yes the experience I gave is true for my Petsmart and the other three I frequent. Of course every store will be different with different levels of experience. I like the folks at my local store and they are very nice and know my pup by name, but their training classes are a bit sad and their information is very cookie cutter.. they all say the same things word for word as if reading from a manual and the simple fact is that not all dogs need the same methods. 


My prong was fitted correctly, but still my pup tugged.. she is the first shepherd I have ever had that was so persistent despite the self corrections, but she is also my first high drive dog, so i think that makes a big difference.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Maya27 said:


> Llombardo, Yes the experience I gave is true for my Petsmart and the other three I frequent. Of course every store will be different with different levels of experience. I like the folks at my local store and they are very nice and know my pup by name, but their training classes are a bit sad and their information is very cookie cutter.. they all say the same things word for word as if reading from a manual and the simple fact is that not all dogs need the same methods.
> 
> 
> My prong was fitted correctly, but still my pup tugged.. she is the first shepherd I have ever had that was so persistent despite the self corrections, but she is also my first high drive dog, so i think that makes a big difference.


 
The prong is not an automatic "self correcting" device - the handler has to be involved in it.

If your pup was still pulling, then obviously she wasn't getting the message about that was bad behavior.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Lin said:


> When it comes to bits that offer leverage, the purpose is actually to be used on higher level trained horses to allow for a higher level of training and more subtle signals.
> 
> In a way your analogy is true, because the prong can be used to allow for more subtle signals to a trained dog. But bits are not a training aid, while a prong collar is. It just can be used as more than just a training aid, but a curb bit should never be used as a training aid.
> 
> If a horse is trying to escape a curb, neither the horse or the rider are currently ready for a curb.


 
i agree totally with and that was my sole point 9i just don't express that good), the prob i think in both horses and dog training is that trainers are cutting or short-cutting straight to the curb bit analogously speaking.

the *last* thing my cutting horse trainer used was a curb bit, before he did that dam horse was working proficiently without any bit or even a halter on, the crucial step was getting them to that stage first and only when they fully "got it" even if it took 5 years a curb bit was then used, i got no problem with that or the prong.

i got a problem when it is basically the first tool used, i see more and more newbs to dam lazy to put the time in with their dog and want to use a prong or an e-collar or whatever when they can't even do basic stuff without one.

also take away the competing for the 300 points neat mentality and i can hardly see the use for any of that stuff at all...for a pet to walk around the block, please???


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> First of all.. every dog I have seen wear a halti was screaming in terror, trying to rip the thing off their face and having it dig into their eyes, so no.


That is terrible. I've never seen a dog scream in terror, from a Halti or other tool. Even my dog who did not like the Halti when I first tried it did not try to rip it off, scream, or have it dig into her eyes. I know some dogs will paw at it at first or if not introduced to it properly. After that I introduced it again by using treats and her meals to get her used to it she quickly became comfortable with it. A properly sized Halti should not really be getting in the eyes if used properly because of the extra straps it has on the sides to keep it centered. I've heard that can be an issue with the Gentle leader because it doesn't have that.


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## Maya27 (Oct 2, 2012)

Yes, I was shocked too. 
I have seen a lot of ill fitting halti on dogs, but the saddest one (and the one I was referencing) was in our puppy class. The puppy in question was a sweetheart- the ILOVEEVERYONE lab mix, but he was absolutely unruly. I know the owner had discussed a lot of different methods with the trainer, but in the last class the pup showed up with a horribly ill fitted halti and that normally happy puppy was absolutely miserable and crying and rolling around and I just felt so bad for him. 
I have to wonder what would have happened if they had chosen to try a prong instead.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Some people can be very judgmental when they hear about or see a prong, it annoys me as they probably never had a dog that required one as a last resource, and they also don't understand that this is not really a torture device. But then I don't blame them completely, as I used to feel aversive about it (it looks scary lol) and then there are trainers that can go too much on punishing and dominance theories (not that dominant behaviors doesn't exist, but some trainers go by justifying everything with dominance). I myself went to a traditional trainer with my dog due to dog reactivity issues, and I certainly didn't like his over punishing and dominating ways.

Anyways, I still use a prong on my dog now, as we have not found the solution for his reactivity yet, while the prong keeps the reactivity checked from getting out of control. I went to find a positive trainer once, as I wanted to deal with my dog's reactivity in better ways. This trainer is not the kind of judgmental and overreactive about punishment, and then he also knew what the prong could do and is sometimes used for (it can be used to motivate biting and aggression so that's why it's not a good tool to cure reactivity, even thought it can keep it checked), so he seemed a good trainer to me. But I ended up not going to his classes coz he misunderstood me asking about the tips he gave me as questioning and not letting go of traditional ways, and then currently I can't take my dog there due to not having a car.

I've tried a halti before, it is can be a good tool for reactivity training as you can pull the dog's muzzle to another direction which cuts eye contact, plus you can close the dog's muzzle too. Since it doesn't apply pressure on the neck, there's probably no leash tension that escalates the aggression. So that this tool can be a great aid for desensitization.
But I used it during a walk, which was actually a big mistake. It worked well when we had some distance from another dog, but when we passed by one that was too near, my dog went crazy and fought the halti and managed to scratch a few wounds on the muzzle.

So in the end, we ended up using the prong, coz it is the only tool that can keep our dog controllable. He still barks or pulls, but not as intense and we can stop him often.

But some people would never understand, unless they have a difficult dog. They would think that all it takes is to be firm and assertive to control/train a dog (I believed in that back then), while it might not be completely true for the few more difficult dogs. So no, people can judge me for using a prong, blame me for not being able to train my dog, as I don't really care (unless they come to me in the real life, like some few ones did).


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

I have used a prong collar for 30 plus years, none of my dogs hated me for it, would start using it at 8 months till 2 years of age, after that, its not necessary, unless your doing something wrong, I have been taught that if you can get 3 fingers under the collar, its correct fit, and you do need to make a couple of good corrections with it


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## AngelaA6 (Jan 20, 2013)

I figured if I absolutely needed a prong collar I would use it, I just personally don't like the look they give the dog due to the influence the crowd that uses them inappropriately has given it (it seems to send the wrong message to ignorant people). I tried a front lead harness for walks and it's worked and he's an only pet so I don't have any cat chasing issues that I would need to correct. I'm not against the proper use of a prong at all though and for PetsMart employees to do that seems highly unprofessional. Whenever a PetsMart person asks me if I need anything I just tell them no because I do my research first so I don't get mislead.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

AngelaA6 said:


> don't like the look they give the dog due to the influence the crowd that uses them inappropriately has given it (it seems to send the wrong message to ignorant people). .


funny you should mention this, am in agreement with you, I was at a War Dog Memorial, month ago, there were 11 other GSD`s there and they all had prong collars on, none of them were working dogs


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I prefer to not use them, but if they are used properly I don't thing there is anything wrong with them. You could get a personalized one from Personalized Embroidered Prong Covers Pikoda


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

If they say something to you again I would give them a piece of your mind and tell them their actions are inappropriate and if they continue you will report them to head office.

I always use a prong with Jazz. I did lots of training with him but he can be reactive to other dogs. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to "fix" the problem to no avail so now I just manage it and my management tool is the prong. There is no way I could control him without it if he decided to go after another dog.


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## nicholas jones (Apr 3, 2013)

has anyone used the starmark academy prong collar


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm new to GSDs so go easy on me lol...

Our service dog program we got the dog from requires choke chain collars. After reading through this thread, it seems to not be a good option for training. Plus, he literally chokes himself when he walks on it and it seems like it hurts. Hes only 9 weeks now and I want to get him started on something that will work right for walking nicely. I anticipate we'll need a prong collar when hes older if he pulls really hard. Right now he has a basic collar from petsmart and a harness we use when we go out. He walks pretty well on a harness using the rear loop but not the one closer to his neck. He walks terribly with the collar or the choke chain collar.

I've only met the trainer twice - once when we previewed the program and once when we picked up the dog. All seemed well until we were leaving and he gave us some tips for the dog - 1 was to always use the choke chain and nothing else because its junk. 2 was to smack the dog in the face/jaw if it nips, and that it shouldn't take more than three corrections if you are hitting hard enough (we don't do this, we are working on using bite inhibition as it seems the most practical). 3 was to throw something hard at the cage if he whimpers and whines (we don't do this, since he whines when he has to go out and nothing else). I don't really trust his tips, but we paid for the program already and we can't back out/get our money back. I don't know how flexible he will be when I tell him we aren't going to hit the dog or use the collar he wants. 

So I guess my question is, what would you use on a puppy when starting out? We will be starting training when he is about 12/14 weeks old. I'm going to be firm with our decisions and how we handle the dog and hopefully he doesn't kick us out of the program down the road. As long as the dog completes the tasks, I don't see why the technique matters.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Most people's jaws hit their keyboards when I said I used a prong collar on Lisl at 16 weeks. "Oh my gosh that's TOO young" blah, blah, blah...

She responded very well to it and is walking like a lady now both to and from home. Lisl had a strange quirk of walking really very well on lead away from home, but as soon as she knew we were headed in the direction of home she would pull and pull.

Treats and a clicker wouldn't slow her down. Changing direction on her didn't help. I'm really glad she enjoys home so much I just wish she wasn't in such a hurry to get here.

In a couple of more months after she has grown some more I'm getting her an 1-1/2" saddle brown leather collar with a handle. She has settled down a lot in the last several weeks and walks nicely now.

If anyone says anything to you out on the street, Petsmart, etc., tell them it's none of their business.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

telling people to mind their own business might work but it does little to break down barriers and promote understanding - devices like these are already becoming the target of public disdain and in some places they are illegal mainly thru lack of understanding - can't see that it would hurt to at least try and explain to someone who might be well meaning but has never seen one and they get a shock and have concerns only for the animal, being a bonehead about it will prolly in the long term be counter productive imo.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

KYH said:


> I'm new to GSDs so go easy on me lol...
> 
> Our service dog program we got the dog from requires choke chain collars. After reading through this thread, it seems to not be a good option for training. Plus, he literally chokes himself when he walks on it and it seems like it hurts. Hes only 9 weeks now and I want to get him started on something that will work right for walking nicely. I anticipate we'll need a prong collar when hes older if he pulls really hard. Right now he has a basic collar from petsmart and a harness we use when we go out. He walks pretty well on a harness using the rear loop but not the one closer to his neck. He walks terribly with the collar or the choke chain collar.
> 
> ...


RUN. RUN NOW. Do NOT return to this trainer. If you are in need of a real service dog and are going the owner trainer route, you need to find a new trainer NOW. Most dogs do not have what it takes to be service dogs period, its incredibly hard. Going the wrong route in training could make a dog that is otherwise SD material, ruined so to speak. And when you're going the owner trainer route like this (as opposed to acquiring a completed dog from a reputable organization) its all the more important because you don't have the experience to correct mistakes that were caused by the horrible advice of this trainer. 

One big tip is for training a service dog you want to start out ALL positive. Also with all puppies you want to start out ALL positive. Corrections and such only come in to play once the dog knows what you want and what you're asking of them, so that they can understand that the correction means they did not give what you were asking of them correctly. Service dogs are trained many unusual tasks, ones that can be difficult to shape. You need a confident dog that is willing to throw behaviors at you for your to be able to get the ones you need and shape them into commands. Overuse of corrections can lead to a dog that is unwilling and afraid to experiment with giving behaviors, for fear of giving the wrong one resulting in a correction. 

And you NEVER smack a dog in the face! Never hit a dog period... I'll give light thumps on my dogs sides to get their attention if they're doing something bad, but you never hit a dog, definitely never hit a puppy, and absolutely never hit a service dog candidate! And doing so for nipping is a recipe for causing more problems such as fear biting down the line. 

Reading your post made my brain short circuit a bit! Please contact me privately (send a pm) and let me know the name of this organization. Also if you tell me your location I can try to find you some reputable sources for support and training. 

Lin B- Assistance Dog Advocacy Project member in education and Service Dog Handler 
Service Dog Central
ADAP Blog


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

Thank you so so much Lin. I'm going to message you right now. I appreciate all of your help!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i've never had a dog that i needed to use a prong or pinch
> collar on. i think a lot of people look forward to usuing a device
> as opposed to using training.


I hear they can dance the tango and rumba too. 

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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to say clicker training is a GREAT way to start with a prospective service dog. Clicker training is wonderful for teaching the dog to experiment and offer behaviors, and for later being able to chain behaviors together into complicated service tasks. 

Like theres a game called something like "100 things to do with a box" and you basically put a cardboard box on the ground and click and treat for any interaction the dog offers with the box. Its great for building confidence in the dog to experiment with things. An example of taking that to shaping a service task is teaching a dog to turn the lights on or off. You can start with a lightswitch on the ground, reward the dog for any interaction with it like the box. Then reward the dog for only interaction with its nose, or paw. Then only interaction with its paw on the switch. Then only reward when the dog actually flips the switch. And a bunch more steps working up to a standard switch on the wall


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## Stuey (Feb 22, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> I love the Secret Power prongs. Below is a pic of him wearing it.
> My vet was very impressed when I told him that what he commented was a "fancy schmanzy" collar was a secret prong
> 
> Hans is young, and Czech line, and way stronger than I. I am petite and don't weigh all that much, and it would be seriously dangerous if I had him on a flat collar in certain situations. He could easily dislocate my shoulder, or break away.


I saw a couple of people mention that they needed prong collars to control their dogs as they're too strong for them.

I've got to ask what they were thinking when they decided on a german shepherd? why didn't they get something they could control like a lap dog? i'd love a pet Lion but i know that i'm not strong enough to handle one, doesn't mean i'm going to get around the fact by sticking a pronged collar on it's neck!


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

Lin said:


> Oh, I forgot to say clicker training is a GREAT way to start with a prospective service dog. Clicker training is wonderful for teaching the dog to experiment and offer behaviors, and for later being able to chain behaviors together into complicated service tasks.
> 
> Like theres a game called something like "100 things to do with a box" and you basically put a cardboard box on the ground and click and treat for any interaction the dog offers with the box. Its great for building confidence in the dog to experiment with things. An example of taking that to shaping a service task is teaching a dog to turn the lights on or off. You can start with a lightswitch on the ground, reward the dog for any interaction with it like the box. Then reward the dog for only interaction with its nose, or paw. Then only interaction with its paw on the switch. Then only reward when the dog actually flips the switch. And a bunch more steps working up to a standard switch on the wall


That's really neat! I was wondering exactly how they trained for certain tasks like that! I'm going to do some research on that and see if its something that will work for us


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Stuey said:


> I saw a couple of people mention that they needed prong collars to control their dogs as they're too strong for them.
> 
> I've got to ask what they were thinking when they decided on a german shepherd? why didn't they get something they could control like a lap dog? i'd love a pet Lion but i know that i'm not strong enough to handle one, doesn't mean i'm going to get around the fact by sticking a pronged collar on it's neck!


So only big strong males need apply for the GSD club? I've never had to use a prong (and I'm female), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't if needed. Particularly for people with injuries ti the hands, wrists, elbows, shoulders it can prevent further injury. What about a big strong man that hurt his shoulder? Should he give his dog away if it's still young and needing training? It's a tool .. period .. not a torture device. It needs to be fitted properly and used properly and then it is kinder on the dog's throat that many other buckles that can damage the throat from pulling against them.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

Lin said:


> Oh, I forgot to say clicker training is a GREAT way to start with a prospective service dog. Clicker training is wonderful for teaching the dog to experiment and offer behaviors, and for later being able to chain behaviors together into complicated service tasks.


Guide Dogs for the Blind is now using clickers for their training and having tremendous success. 

The key is knowing when to click. I tell my students to "take a picture when you see what you want" with the clicker. I went to a 3 day clicker seminar and learned all kinds of tips like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Clickers are awesome but it also takes time and consistency both of which many people do not have. 

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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

I do need to use prongs for some dogs in my obedience classes simply to get their attention. Many of these dogs have been ignored & allowed to practice bad behavior that results in lunging at other dogs - can't have that in a large obedience class. Size is also an issue (dog vs human) - although a Chi can have trachea damage just as easily as a Mastiff from improper use of a collar. I do not allow CC in my class. I tell them to get a prong.

I DO prefer the Halti but there is a learning curve. People need to know that they can't jerk it. They need to know how to get their dog to accept it. When I decide to have the owner use a Halti, I have them bring it to class early and I teach them how to make it a good experience. Do all dogs instantly love it? No. But they do become accustomed to it. Some dogs barely know it's on. My GSD wears a Halti because I can redirect his attention to me very easily. For him (and all dogs are different!) a prong just added excitement to his high drive antics. I needed a calm approach.

In the end - it's important to use whatever works. Dog training is not "one size fits all." Dogs have different temperaments and owners have different skill levels. The object (for my classes) is to have dogs assimilate into homes happily. The majority of my dogs have come from rescue organizations and many have "issues." It's important to make a correct assessment of the dog and the new owner. Many of the rescued dogs didn't get there from barking too loudly in the choir.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Clickers are awesome but it also takes time and consistency both of which many people do not have.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


+1

I tend to use clickers more in my intermediate classes. A beginning level class with the excitement/chaos coupled with inexperienced handlers doesn't make for a good outcome. Most of these people just want basic commands.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Clickers are awesome but it also takes time and consistency both of which many people do not have.


If they don't have time or consistency they have no business attempting to train their own service dog.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

my trainer told me from the get go, put a pronge on her, i was hesitant and it took me weeks to finally get one. she fit her with the collar, and i had many classes to show me how to properly use one. now i never leave home without it. i take lexie to the park where there are lots of dogs, and 95 percent of the dogs are walking their owners, my dog looks like a million bucks, no pulling, no barking at other dogs, no nothing! I must have missed this original post, so now ive just ordered one of the fancy schmancy collars and i love that this one wont come apart


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lin said:


> If they don't have time or consistency they have no business attempting to train their own service dog.


Wasn't talking about Service Dogs, more about Owners in general. 

Clicker training a dog takes a lot of time but what happens in the meantime? You still have to take the dog on a walk on a daily basis and clicker training doesn't solve the problem in just a day or two.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> my trainer told me from the get go, put a pronge on her, i was hesitant and it took me weeks to finally get one. she fit her with the collar, and i had many classes to show me how to properly use one. now i never leave home without it. i take lexie to the park where there are lots of dogs, and 95 percent of the dogs are walking their owners, my dog looks like a million bucks, no pulling, no barking at other dogs, no nothing! I must have missed this original post, so now ive just ordered one of the fancy schmancy collars and i love that this one wont come apart


See, I never think a dog looks like a million bucks when its wearing a training collar. This is because I know that most dogs, with very little effort on the part of the owner, will not pull on a prong or a halti. And when people wear the prong collars properly on their dogs, it looks unnatural to me. 

For me, loose leash + prong collar = pulling, unmanageable dog on a flat collar. I just do not see any difference between the two. And some of those dogs on prong collars are actually pretty well trained, but you would never know it, because they are wearing a training device. I like to see a well-trained dog without the crutches. But I know that some dogs have come to their owners as teenagers or young adults, and are in training. And I should think it is just temporary, but I don't think that. Too often I have seen the same dog with a prong collar on for years. 

I never say anything though to people with prong collars on their dogs. Sometimes I am a little afraid the person with the prong collar on the dog is afraid they will not be able to manage the dog without it, or maybe the dog is aggressive. It makes me leery, even though I know a lot of people just use them as a matter of course.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Right now, with my bad knee, if I have the three girls together on the leash, they will wear a prong and to be honest, let people think what they want. They will always have an opinion....

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have two bad knees right now, so I only walk one dog at a time. One dog and a couple of six year olds. Or I walk without a leash, a few of mine can go naked. But I prefer to walk only one dog.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Stuey said:


> I saw a couple of people mention that they needed prong collars to control their dogs as they're too strong for them.
> 
> I've got to ask what they were thinking when they decided on a german shepherd? why didn't they get something they could control like a lap dog? i'd love a pet Lion but i know that i'm not strong enough to handle one, doesn't mean i'm going to get around the fact by sticking a pronged collar on it's neck!


Lol, seriously? I'm pretty sure a GSD could out power more than half of owners that are male, too. So I guess no one really has any business owning a GSD. Wanna know what I was thinking when I decided to get a GSD? That yeah, he'll be stronger than me, but he'll be TRAINED and well behaved. I dont like lap dogs. I would never want to own a dog that is the size of a cat. I can handle my dog. He IS stronger than me, but he is trained. And the prong is simply a tool. I dont use it to get around the fact that he's stronger than me. 





I have trained my dog with a clicker Mrs. K, Lin, and others. Doesnt take THAT much time?? I mean, I guess its not instantaneously, but I get consistent results from him probably within a few training sessions with him. I dont use it all the time, but I do use it when introducing new behaviors and commands to him. It speeds up his learning of that command/behavior, because he knows a click means I liked what he was doing.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Wasn't talking about Service Dogs, more about Owners in general.
> 
> Clicker training a dog takes a lot of time but what happens in the meantime? You still have to take the dog on a walk on a daily basis and clicker training doesn't solve the problem in just a day or two.


Clicker training is just one part of training, one tool. Just as the prong is one tool. Using a prong doesn't mean you now use the prong for everything and use nothing else but the prong. Using a clicker doesn't mean you're suddenly using the clicker for everything and using nothing else.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lin said:


> Clicker training is just one part of training, one tool. Just as the prong is one tool. Using a prong doesn't mean you now use the prong for everything and use nothing else but the prong. Using a clicker doesn't mean you're suddenly using the clicker for everything and using nothing else.


Absolutely agree with you on that. However, there are trainers who would absolutely disagree with the both of us on that. That the clicker is the only way to go and a lot of people actually believe that and are scared to use a prong or deadset against it even though they get dragged over the road and the dog got away from them before. 

I had to talk one person into actually using a Prong. Gorgeous dog, but the dog was overpowering her and her kids. It got to the point where I said "Look, what are you going to do if he pulls the leash out of your hand and he's running into the road and is run over by a car?"

Turns out that almost happened before. I told her that the prong is only temporary and that the Clicker is not a wonder thing that changes the dog within a day. It's a lot of training and it won't happen over night. 

Most of the time, the biggest issue is consistency. People are not consistent and they know it too and most of the time it's because they are just too busy to work with the dog and they need a miracle fix. So that miracle fix, most of the time, ends up to be the Prong collar.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

These types of threads always seem to pop up every now and again..

So my question is... Does it really matter what other people think?? (insert whatever training device here) 

As long as you're not abusing your dog with whatever training tool you use, who cares.. If you're comfortable using it and you are having success.. Then that's really all that matters, isn't it?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

G-burg said:


> These types of threads always seem to pop up every now and again..
> 
> So my question is... Does it really matter what other people think?? (insert whatever training device here)
> 
> As long as you're not abusing your dog with whatever training tool you use, who cares.. If you're comfortable using it and you are having success.. Then that's really all that matters, isn't it?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sometimes I wish I had a prong. I have always been very much against them but as you get older, you get wiser and more flexible. WD almost pulled me off my feet one day and I am considering one for just that purpose. I think I will use both collars with their own leash so I can choose which one I would need in a certain situation when we are out and about.


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## Stuey (Feb 22, 2013)

gsdlover91 said:


> Lol, seriously? I'm pretty sure a GSD could out power more than half of owners that are male, too. So I guess no one really has any business owning a GSD. Wanna know what I was thinking when I decided to get a GSD? That yeah, he'll be stronger than me, but he'll be TRAINED and well behaved. I dont like lap dogs. I would never want to own a dog that is the size of a cat. I can handle my dog. He IS stronger than me, but he is trained. And the prong is simply a tool. I dont use it to get around the fact that he's stronger than me.


I appreciate your view but as i still think it's irresponsible to take ownership of an animal you can't control with a simple lead and collar. I have a big working line male and i'm not a big guy but i know i am slightly stronger than him. He knows this too. From day one i constantly reminded him of this and that's a big part of why he respects me. I didn't hit him or hurt him to achieve this just simple firm contact and assertive body language. Leadership in the dog world is determined by strength and fitness, just look at how puppy's pin eachother. 

I strongly believe that it is possible to train a dog without using pain as a discipline. Fair enough with big dominant males positive reinforcement may not be very effective but as soon as you have earn't their respect by displaying yourself as the leader controling them shouldn't be an issue.

Please don't take this the wrong way, i'm not being sexist but there is a big difference of when i raise my voice to my big male and when my girlfriend does.

The way he see's it is ok she's about my size, weaker than me and has a funny high pitched voice. He's bigger than me, stronger than me and he sounds like he means business. 

It's an easy decision to him who he's going to listen to. He obeys her in regards to simple comands but if he decides to play up or that his plan is sooo much better than ours then it's only me who can convince him otherwise.

As i said please don't mis interpret what i just said, i've met plenty of women who can control big dogs and are well alot bigger and scarier than me. my comment is directed at that 5ft nervous small woman you see at the park being dragged along on her face by her 60 kilo rottweiler. you can't help but agree that maaaybe she's maybe a bit out of her depth...


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Stuey said:


> I appreciate your view but as i still think it's irresponsible to take ownership of an animal you can't control with a simple lead and collar. I have a big working line male and i'm not a big guy but i know i am slightly stronger than him. He knows this too. From day one i constantly reminded him of this and that's a big part of why he respects me. I didn't hit him or hurt him to achieve this just simple firm contact and assertive body language. Leadership in the dog world is determined by strength and fitness, just look at how puppy's pin eachother.
> 
> I strongly believe that it is possible to train a dog without using pain as a discipline. Fair enough with big dominant males positive reinforcement may not be very effective but as soon as you have earn't their respect by displaying yourself as the leader controling them shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...


I'm barely 5'1, my husband is over 6ft... Know who ALL my dogs listen to? ME. They walk all over my husband even though he is bigger, stronger and has a deeper voice then me. My husband can't get my GSD to do anything. I am not a feminist by any means in fact, most of them really annoy me but what you're saying is slightly sexist... I'm sure there are plenty of men who have no business owning dogs like Rottweilers too, just people take more notice if its a women. 

I also don't think a prong IF used correctly causes a dog any pain... There is a lot of ignorance and misinformation with these collars, to say that anyone who uses one shouldn't own one of these dogs would be cutting out A LOT of people men and women.


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## Charlie W (Feb 12, 2013)

I believe that prong collars are banned in New Zealand, I had never heard of them until recently. I am 5'3" and weigh less than the combined weight of my two big dogs. 
As they are banned and I never knew about their existence, they are not something I ever missed or wished I had, and I used the tools at my disposal (positive reinforcement training, and lots of my time) to train my dogs. I have found myself in situations where they have both wanted to pull against me to see a dog or chase a cat, but I have always found that by using established commands such as "leave it" "no" and as a last resort "down" I have never felt out of control.

I guess that if they are used as a correction for a dog who has been trained and knows that what they are doing is wrong, then I don't have too much of an issue with them. I don't believe that they should take the place of a good basic grounding which takes time, repetition and above all patience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Carriesue said:


> I'm barely 5'1, my husband is over 6ft... Know who ALL my dogs listen to? ME. They walk all over my husband even though he is bigger, stronger and has a deeper voice then me. My husband can't get my GSD to do anything. I am not a feminist by any means in fact, most of them really annoy me but what you're saying is slightly sexist... I'm sure there are plenty of men who have no business owning dogs like Rottweilers too, just people take more notice if its a women.
> 
> I also don't think a prong IF used correctly causes a dog any pain... There is a lot of ignorance and misinformation with these collars, *to say that anyone who uses one shouldn't own one of these dogs would be cutting out A LOT of people men and women*.


I would not say anyone who uses one, but I will say anyone who _needs _one to control their dog should not own that dog. Prong's are not kept on the dog 24/7, and they can come undone. If we need a training tool to control our dog, we are over-matched. 

There is a little 7 year old girl out there doing Schutzhund with a strong, energetic WL dog. Sure she maybe did not train the dog herself, but she is handling the dog. I am disappointed in my sex when they keep bringing up their bodily dimensions when it comes to controlling their dog. We do not control dogs by brute force, if we did, then we would all be in a world of hurt. Any of our dogs can pull 500#s easy. None of us could out-pull our dogs. Our dogs don't know that, and I am not sure it would matter if they did. But this excuse for using a prong collar just doesn't hold water.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, it's just like people getting p*ssed over others tethering instead of kenneling for unsupervised containment. 

It's personal preference.. And if it isn't hurting the dogs (the tool itself, not when it's abused by the human), they ought to keep their ignorance to themselves. The prong is a good tool, I prefer not to use negative methods but not everything works for every dog. And that's all there is to it, people shouldn't get rude and insulting because your opinion differs on something that isn't harmful.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

selzer said:


> I would not say anyone who uses one, but I will say anyone who _needs _one to control their dog should not own that dog. Prong's are not kept on the dog 24/7, and they can come undone. If we need a training tool to control our dog, we are over-matched.
> 
> There is a little 7 year old girl out there doing Schutzhund with a strong, energetic WL dog. Sure she maybe did not train the dog herself, but she is handling the dog. I am disappointed in my sex when they keep bringing up their bodily dimensions when it comes to controlling their dog. We do not control dogs by brute force, if we did, then we would all be in a world of hurt. Any of our dogs can pull 500#s easy. None of us could out-pull our dogs. Our dogs don't know that, and I am not sure it would matter if they did. But this excuse for using a prong collar just doesn't hold water.


I definitely don't use it as much anymore, I only use it now in one situation which has nothing to do with brute force. I was trying to say that you don't need to be a big strong man to own one of these dogs. But my dog is a very hard dog and I did try positive reinforcement training first, it wasn't working so that's when I turned to the prong and I only use it for training. He doesn't wear it 24/7 or every time we go out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Carriesue said:


> I definitely don't use it as much anymore, I only use it now in one situation which has nothing to do with brute force. I was trying to say that you don't need to be a big strong man to own one of these dogs. But my dog is a very hard dog and I did try positive reinforcement training first, it wasn't working so that's when I turned to the prong and I only use it for training. He doesn't wear it 24/7 or every time we go out.


No, I am not a big strong man either, and I don't use the collar, and it is amazing how many big strong men do use the collars, and how many of them have to carry guns or mace or whatever else to ward off dogs. 

Little old ladies must have more hutzpah (sp?). I kind of remember the nun in the movie Lady in White. The kids are riding their bikes as the Catholic school kids are walking in file along, and the kids on the bikes part the other kids, and the dogs that are chasing the bicycles, take one look at that nun's face and yelp and go the other way. I bet that nun wouldn't need a prong collar if she had a dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I haven't read most of the thread but I have no issue with trainers refusing to use certain tools. If you want to use the tool, find a different trainer that will teach you how to use it. It's not really ignorance, its what's worked for that trainer. You can't expect a trainer to mold their class to each student in there. Some people have trained for decades without the use of a prong, had success, so why would they start now? Just because some fresh, new, dog owner looked up a couple of internet threads and decided prongs were the way to go?

Our dogs are also not stronger than us. Just because they can pull X amount of pounds, doesn't mean they can move something that is less than X. My dog can pull all he wants...but even on a regular collar I can lock my muscles, take a wide enough stance and he will not move me...remember, newton's laws? It takes a lot of force to get the object moving, but not much after to keep it moving.

Of course I've seen grown men taken by surprise and their dogs pull them half way across a training field in order to get to their "mom" even on a prong...but if you're paying attention, there is no reason a dog the size of a GSD should be able to pull you off your feet.

Anyways...that's all besides the point...I don't get these rants about "this trainer won't do it MY way" blah blah blah. If the trainer is losing money/customers because of their decision...let it be...what's the affect on you? For a very long time it wasn't accepted to use a prong simply because it's not allowed in the show ring...people didn't want to depend on a tool they couldn't use in the ring...nothing to do with how it looks or what the perception is about it causing pain. The only reason I need to use one is seeing how much better obedience is from my dog, from Schutzhund dogs, from other "prong" trained dogs in comparison to all the places around me that do positive only and don't allow prongs. We pretty much wipe the floors with those dogs when it comes to obedience shows in the area.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

If you're big dog broke away from your petite self and got run over by a bus, I bet you wouldn't be worrying about what these people said.

So, don't worry about it now 

You're doing what works for _you_ and _your_ dog...you are not abusing the dog...and that is keeping you both safe. I say, power to you!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

gsdlover91 said:


> I have a serious issue with ignorant people (TRAINERS) who have a problem with the prong/pinch collar. *Okay, it's one thing if you prefer not to use it as a tool to train with, but to be rude about it is a whole 'nother thing...*
> 
> *Well a few months ago, I bought a prong there, because the breeder told me to so I could correct him around the cats. The manager saw me looking at them, and told the trainer, and they both came over and 'lectured' me and freaked out on me basically. *
> 
> ...


Martemchik, those are quotes from my OP. I dont care if people dont use it, but when a trainer is RUDE to me because IM choosing to use it, then I have a problem, and yeah that IS ignorant. She really wanted me to do every 100% positive, I do alot of positive training, but the prong is helpful sometimes too. I have no issue with trainers refusing certain tools either, I never once had him wear it TO class. The trainer doesnt have to shove her opinion down my throat and lecture me about why I SHOULDNT use a certain tool.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Stuey said:


> I appreciate your view but as i still think it's irresponsible to take ownership of an animal you can't control with a simple lead and collar. I have a big working line male and i'm not a big guy but i know i am slightly stronger than him. He knows this too. From day one i constantly reminded him of this and that's a big part of why he respects me. I didn't hit him or hurt him to achieve this just simple firm contact and assertive body language. Leadership in the dog world is determined by strength and fitness, just look at how puppy's pin eachother.
> 
> I strongly believe that it is possible to train a dog without using pain as a discipline. Fair enough with big dominant males positive reinforcement may not be very effective but as soon as you have earn't their respect by displaying yourself as the leader controling them shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> ...


Training has nothing to do with strength. I use prong collars as part of my training tools. I'm petite in height and weight and when I was physically able to take my dogs for walks I took 2 GSDs at once. I also spent years training horses before my disability got too bad to continue. I have a photo of a belgian I trained where I actually had to use a ladder (not a stepstool, a ladder) to get high enough to train him to accept the saddle and then weight across his back before physically getting on him to train him under saddle. If it ever becomes a battle of strength, the animal WILL win. But training should never be a battle of strength.


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