# Ferro, Troll, and Mink



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I keep hearing these three names over and over again. . . "This dog is heavily bred on Ferro and Troll," or "This dog has a lot of Mink."

But when I look at pedigrees there are sometimes several different dogs in a 5-generation pedigree named Ferro or Troll. Fewer named Mink, but there's still more than one.

So. . . . which ones are you referring to?:help:


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Mink vom Haus Wittfeld
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
Troll von der Bosen Nachbarschaft (a son of Fero)


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Mink-
SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld - German shepherd dog

Fero-
V Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich - German shepherd dog

Troll- There are 2 that are talked about.
One is a fero son. His brotehr Timmy is also well regarded and you will see line breeding on the T-litter
V Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft - German shepherd dog

This is the other.
Troll Vom Haus Milinda - German shepherd dog


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually there is a 3rd common Troll, Troll Korbelbach.

But 99.99999% of the time when people say "Troll" they mean Troll vd BN. And if they don't, they'll usually specify one of the others because it's otherwise generally assumed to be Troll vd BN.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Hey look at that! Mink is a grandson of Greif Lahntal!

I think my head's gonna explode.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

For fun...

Daryl Ehret put out this chart that shows some of the interelatedness of the different dogs in bloodlines.

http://www.ehretgsd.com/BloodColor.pdf


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ok, so if I took some $200 AKC GSD off Craigslist. Max vom Backyard, son of Mike vom Backyard and Missy vom Backyard and traced Max's pedigree far enough, would I eventually get to Fero, Troll, Mink, and Greif? I guess I'm trying to figure out how prevalent these dogs are in the breed.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

If Max vom Backyard came from West German Workinglines...I would say that these dogs are in a good number of pedigrees.

However these dogs are from the 80s...And while that is probably still genetically significant on today's workingline dogs...probably not very important if Max vom Backyard is from a longer line of American bred showdogs. In the 80s the camps were established so you didn't see much crossover between the workingline dogs and say the showlines- you'd have to go further back to see a more uniform Shepherd and be able to pinpoint a more universal common ancestor.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It used to Be that dogs were sometimes mentioned as "Fero free" for breeding purposes. Not that he was bad, but if desiring to outcross one might have to look for such. He was in a number of west working breedings. My male is 5-5 on him.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Now it is almost impossible to find a working line pedigree without Fero in it, at least with the Western European lines. I feel there is very real concern over genetic bottlenecking in these lines due to the overuse of Fero in many cases. Not that Fero was necessarily bad, but to see the same dog in practically every pedigree, often multiple times, is worrisome.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Very true, Chris, I see it more and more--a dog will have 4-6 lines that go back to Fero. Say, Nick, Yoschy, Aly, Troll, and Gotthilf vd Kine --all in the same pedigree. 

I do see Mink, often on the bottom-side in combo with Fero on top, but far less often than I used to, and it seems he is not often linebred on.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that is why some people have mixed Czech and DDR lines with West lines in past 15 years. Of course we all know the Czech dogs are nervy and have chewy grips and aren't great for the almighty Sch. Or we can continue on our prey way.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Wow gee thanks Cliff so glad you told us that-I was thinking some day my next gsd might have some czech lines-but hearing this well beagle puppies sure are cute


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I do see Mink, often on the bottom-side in combo with Fero on top, but far less often than I used to, and it seems he is not often linebred on.


Leerburg used the Mink line dogs alot, with a fair amount of linebreeding as well. That's where I've seen it the most. Several of my dogs are pretty heavily linebred on Mink 5,5 - 5,5. My other dog is 3-3 on Fero. I agree it can be difficult to find a West German pedigree without those dogs in there.

I've seen a number of WG/Czech/DDR pairings that have been successful.


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Once the czech and DDR lines have all vanished into the mix, where would breeders then go for an outcross that would (a) balance out the traits they have in their stock, and (b) avoid concentrating their dogs' genetic heritage again into relationships that are too close for continued mental and physical health? Asking 'cause I'm a learner.

Saw a great Czech dog on the van den Heuvel website linked to another thread--great for my taste--called Navarro. Solid, reliable, steady, sweet, and trained in protection. Safe around children. You would have liked him, I think, Holland!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Don't worry Holland...sometimes the Czech dogs have active aggression so you don't want to make that mistakelol....you'll be fine with the beagles


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

So are Troll, Mink, and Yoschy et. al. all West German Dogs? 

I'm learning to recognize names, but I still can't tell East from West. Do you just memorize the kennels? Grafental is East, right?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> So are Troll, Mink, and Yoschy et. al. all West German Dogs?
> 
> I'm learning to recognize names, but I still can't tell East from West. Do you just memorize the kennels? Grafental is East, right?


By and large, yes, I just memorize the names. Grafental is generally East, but sometimes they breed West German show lines....

Yoschy's father is Troll; Troll's father is Fero.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I should really be studying for my trigonometry quiz tomorrow. But this is more interesting.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Same here enmoore- I should be doing geometry homework. Oh well.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Of course we all know the Czech dogs are nervy and have chewy grips and aren't great for the almighty Sch.


 
so mix czech & ddr and you will get nervy chewy grips and no prey drive or work ethic in a lobo like package with added raccoon eye make-up, the perfect pets, will sell like hot cakes


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

x11 said:


> so mix czech & ddr and you will get nervy chewy grips and no prey drive or work ethic in a lobo like package with added raccoon eye make-up, the perfect pets, will sell like hot cakes


Is this true? I have a Czech/DDR mix with Czech Sch (forget what it's called)/Sch titled parents and he seems to have very high prey drive. Not really sure what a nervy dog would be like? He is my first GSD and first high energy dog, so i have nothing to compare to besides my extremely laid-back Yorkie.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

no it's not true, just a dig.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ x11.... I really like that combination...lmao! No Czech/DDR dogs are fine and are good as any other dogs in this breed


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Ok thank you


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## laukaouda (Jun 26, 2002)

Great thread. My boy goes back on Timmy and Troll via Javir Talka Marda. I can't keep the names and lines straight.


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