# ok...I don't get it...



## jang (May 1, 2011)

I have worked with Sib for three years now to walk beside me and to not pull my arms out of their sockets every time we go around the block..I have used every kind of collar, harness, halti..you name it..all to no avail..So, my friend buys me an e collar..just a cheap one..no real varying degrees of stim or shock...but I have used it a few times on Sib on vib and she has responded appropriately...The last two days we have walked the block..first time around I let her do her sniffing, etc..the second time around she is to heel and walk loose leash..She does this perfectly, AS LONG AS I HAVE THE REMOTE TO THE COLLAR IN MY HAND, So now what I think this is telling me is that she knew all along what I wanted but was too bull headed to do it for me... So to my question, why does she make me take such extreme measures to give me what I want?


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

She may not have liked the vibrate feeling. My oldest dog will run the neighborhood if he is not wearing an ecollar. Ours does have adjustable controls. There is a button to make it beep then shock. (when we used this we set it on a setting that didn't hurt us.) There is another button that only beeps. We only have to use the beep button now and he stays in the yard. Most of the time just wearing the collar is enough to keep him in the yard. However, when the collar is off then he is out like the wind running the neighborhood. Thankfully he has learned and is really good at the stay command now. So, we rarely have that issue.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

To answer your question, she didn't make you do anything. You weren't strong enough to take charge and be the leader. 

You were the follower and she was the leader. Females can be very pushy and bitchy and you can't always handle them like you can the males.

Some dogs are very stubborn or 'hard' and it is sometimes difficult to get through to them.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Ok , I'll buy that..I got her at 14months and the reason she was given back to the breeder by her first owner (a man) was because he was unable to control her on leash...So do you think she has finally given in to me..? Re: my strength as a leader...I have done the best I could do..i am by no means a push over...just can't get her to give in to me...I hate to think I will have to always hold this e collar over her head.so to speak...I would like it if she would just do it to please me...


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Would also like to mention..we have just , after 2 years, come off the prong collar...A small victory, but a victory ....


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I think Hard may very well describe her ....But she is a wonderful dog...


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I couldn't say if she has given in to you, or the collar. How are the rest of her commands, especially recall?

If she is the leader on walks, it's likely she is also the leader in other areas as well.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

So, you think it is true that she has know all along what I want but was just too bullheaded to do it? How, would you handle a gsd llike this?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

My take on it is the dogs walks by your side when you have the collar remote in your hand because she associates the collar with the correction and wants to avoid the correction. She knows when you have the remote you can deliver the correction.

What I've gathered from e collar training is you want the dogs behavior to trigger the stimulus rather than the dog knowing you are delivering it. 

I really like these Tyler Muto clips to show people how to walk a dog with out it causing major stress. 
Tyler Muto - YouTube


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Her recall is great , unless she doesn't want to come!! She follows commands well if there is food in the mix..I have worked so hard with her. and she is so smart...She just is so strong willed...maybe the e collar should have been used before this..But, gosh, the first couple of times, it broke my heart seeing her reaction to it...But I must say after 3 years of trying to keep her out of the kitchen while i am preparing food..the e collar convinced her in one shot..to stay out


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

MadLab said:


> My take on it is the dogs walks by your side when you have the collar remote in your hand because she associates the collar with the correction and wants to avoid the correction. She knows when you have the remote you can deliver the correction.
> 
> What I've gathered from e collar training is you want the dogs behavior to trigger the stimulus rather than the dog knowing you are delivering it.
> 
> ...


And this is how I swore to myself I would use the ecollar..but easier said than done...I will check out theyou tube you posted...thanks..


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I did read lou castles directions on proper use...and have tried to follow his advise...


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> To answer your question, she didn't make you do anything. You weren't strong enough to take charge and be the leader.


:thumbup: 

you gotta be firm (but fair) with a german shepherd or it will walk all over you. if you're using the ecollar to punish your dog after it does something undesirable then you're not really teaching it anything except behave or the pain will come. if you're using the prong to give your dogs little pops here and there then you're doing nothing more than annoying the dog. i teach my dog commands through treats. once i am absolutely sure they know the command, i will then use a prong for corrections. if my dog knows what sit means and i am completely sure that the dog is blowing me off, i will give him one BIG correction with the prong. so hard that he will yelp because it hurts. the dog has to think "wow that really hurt! i should listen the first time!" if you give little pops with the prong you dont get the dogs attention like one big correction will. when another dog is barking from behind a fence on walks my dog use to pull hard towards the fence; two big corrections later and he has never pulled towards another dog ever again no matter how raging mad that other dog is acting. whatever device you use for corrections, just make sure the dog knows exactly why it is being correct or else its unfair to the dog and it will hurt your bond.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

jang said:


> Her recall is great , unless she doesn't want to come!! She follows commands well if there is food in the mix..I have worked so hard with her. and she is so smart...She just is so strong willed...maybe the e collar should have been used before this..But, gosh, the first couple of times, it broke my heart seeing her reaction to it...But I must say after 3 years of trying to keep her out of the kitchen while i am preparing food..the e collar convinced her in one shot..to stay out


If she doesn't come every time when called then she has no recall. She must come every time. No exceptions.

It's not impossible to change this behavior, but just like an old man (me) it gets harder to change with age.

I've never used an electronic collar. I'm not against using them, I just never have.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

MadLab said:


> What I've gathered from e collar training is you want the dogs behavior to trigger the stimulus rather than the dog knowing you are delivering it.


Of course that is the tricky part, because GSDs can be so scary smart. Shasta was collar smart and controller smart after about the first 3 seconds of use.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Our house recall is near 100%. Outdoor recall is great unless a cat presents..and a cat almost ALWAYS presents.

Walking on a loose leash is a funny thing, with us. When I don't use a prong collar, she will pull me around the yard because she knows that she can. When I put the prong collar on her, she won't pull. It has been a long time since she has needed 'reminding' with a sharp tug...but she knows that I can if need be. I'm betting if I got her a collar that weighed the same as the prong collar, she'd do just fine.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Hopefully, someone who has used an e-collar a lot will give an opinion on this idea- good or bad. When I first got my adult GSD he not only was a major puller, but also reactive to other dogs while walking on a leash. The reactivity was what we were working on with a trainer. 

At the time, I was still healing from a shoulder injury and of course it would be my LEFT shoulder, lol.
I had Hans on a prong collar but wasn't able to give a stiff enough correction to get his attention (kind of like what Boomer11 described as what probably felt like just annoying little pops to Hans).

The trainer walked behind me with the remote so that Hans would never see me with the remote. Also, with Hans flipping out when he saw other dogs, it would be difficult for me to time it correctly with the pop of the prong collar. He told me that we only wanted Hans to think I was giving him a stiffer correction, we didn't want him to associate the whole e-collar thing with me. Does that make sense? 
I guess the question for experienced e-collar users is...is it too late for Jang to get someone to work with her like my trainer did and be successful using the e-collar?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> If she doesn't come every time when called then she has no recall. She must come every time. No exceptions.
> 
> It's not impossible to change this behavior, but just like an old man (me) it gets harder to change with age.
> 
> I've never used an electronic collar. I'm not against using them, I just never have.


Well, I am also old...not that old, but too old to be fighting with my dog...I am tired of her strength and her unwillingness to succumb..We go to a lot of different places and she is great...Just the walks around the block..and cats, and dogs and squirrels!!! , Well, the battle continues, sooner or later one of us is gonna give in...


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

The objective is not to get her to submit, but to get her to willingly do this for you.

I can't tell you exactly how to do this because I don't know your dog and I've never trained two dogs exactly alike. They are as individual as people are and have to be handled (coddled, coerced, praised, bribed, or fill in the blank) accordingly.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I have to say, she willingly does a lot for me...mostly house stuff..won't get into the details but she is a lovely dog ...it's just this one issue...It is obvious that we are in a power struggle..even in play, trying to get her to lie on her side for lovin'..she will not succumb...Never had a male dog, but I think this female is a pain in my butt!!


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I am going to be honest with you..if using this e collar the way I am using it is wrong, well I don't care..I never wanted to use it this way..wanted to use it the way that lou castle says to use it..but, i am seeing results..even if they are from submission...Sometimes we have to do what we have to do...sib is 4 years old and has been a hard dog the whole time...I am too old for her strength against me anymore..I really appreciate all of your input..not asking for affirmation..please know I sincerely thank you for your help..I wish it did not have to be this way..but if I can get her to submit..right or wrong..than that is what I will do..


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm not judging you for using the collar. I know very little about it since I've never used one. You do what you have to do to live peaceably with your dog.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Thank you so much....


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Dogs are way smarter than most people realize, in fact many may have better memories than their owners.

They are hard wired to manipulate humans. 

Just like a child, they learn quick what they can get away with and how to get their way.

You are so right about the collar, they know when they have it on they better behave.

My Dex is so smart that he knows the transmitter means nothing if the collar isn't on or vice versa.

Early on I could just show him the zapper and he would snap to attention.

The e-collar is an amazing tool, with my $79.00 Pet-Ed version I can give a wireless correction up to 900' away.

With common sense you can tweak your dog on every known task to a level of perfection others only dream of.

You can stop unwanted behavior with one good correction, Dex would snap viciously at my motorcycle,

I stopped this with one good correction. I have not observed any ill effects with the use of my e-collar, 

I love my dog as much or more than anyone, there is no way I would ever do anything that might harm him in any way.


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