# Train for better socialization with humans



## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

Good afternoon everyone, 

We are looking to bring home a rescue in about 5 days, 1 year old male with a sad backstory. He was purchased as a puppy and left in the basement of his owners house, no socialization, at all, from what I can gather, I do not know how long this had occurred. This man was incarcerated, and his "Friend" took the GSD home without telling his wife. They already had a dog and he spent most of his time in a cage, and was finally owner surrendered to the rescue, where we come in. 

Guido (his name currently) is very cautious around new people, given the lack of socialization I am not surprised. Foster parent says it takes a few hours and he warms up to whomever it is and is a normal dog, but in the initial meeting, backing up and backing is common. For some reason, car rides seem to speed up the acquaintance process and he rather enjoys them. I have seen videos of him playing with the foster family, including rough play, and he appears to be a normal dog after the initial meeting. 

The current foster family host "Hot Dog" parties to get him socialized to new people, but he will still need some work. 

I have previously rescued a GSD in a similar situation, she wasn't fearful, but submissive to any human contact, even our own for the first month or so. We eventually were able to build her confidence and that behavior fell to the wayside, but I have never had to deal with a barking, fearful GSD before and would like guidance on the best way to work with him. 

Any help would be appreciated, when he comes home I'll post up some pics!


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

backing up and barking is common*


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

I am currently working with a 1 1/2 year old male we have in our rescue and when I met him the first time he did the same thing: barking and backing up.
I went in his kennel, put his collars on and started walking (yes, I had backup watching us, just in case). This was a week and a half ago and I have worked with him an hour every day. When I walk up to his kennel now he jumps up the door but he is more excited to see me than anything else. I tell him to sit and then I put the collars on him. 
I believe he just needed the confidence that it's all ok, that he's safe and I got it under control for both of us. Tonight we start our obedience group class. Last night there was puppy class and I took him in with the other dogs and he did great. He's eager to learn and every time I praise him for doing something good, he has this face that tells me he's proud of himself 
Since he's in a foster home I'd say spend time with him there and with his family for a couple days, then take him on a walk by yourself. Have him get used to you and have him find that trust he's looking for.
As far as communicating with him goes, keep it simple and don't put too much excitement in it at first.
Good luck and be patient!!! It'll be worth it.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MrSmith said:


> Good afternoon everyone,
> 
> We are looking to bring home a rescue in about 5 days, 1 year old male with a sad backstory. He was purchased as a puppy and left in the basement of his owners house, no socialization, at all, from what I can gather, I do not know how long this had occurred. This man was incarcerated, and his "Friend" took the GSD home without telling his wife. They already had a dog and he spent most of his time in a cage, and was finally owner surrendered to the rescue, where we come in.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't force "socialization". Just do exposure after a two week shutdown in a new home. Don't need to force the dog to do anything.


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> I wouldn't force "socialization". Just do exposure after a two week shutdown in a new home. Don't need to force the dog to do anything.


I have no plan on forcing socialization, especially when we first bring him home. Is two weeks enough? I was planning around 4 weeks, with all of the ins and outs of his recent past. We met him for the first time last night in the fosters home and were there for about an hour. Lots of barking, wouldn't come near us in the first 20 minutes. By the end of the session he was taking food from hands but retreating to the current foster parents. That's enough progress for me on the first visit, and better than we both expected. 

I feel its safe to say he will become a social dog again with enough positive training, its pretty apparent he just wasn't given much attention, or positive attention from his previous owners, but I also don't think he was severely neglected/beaten in order to be fearful of humans. He was very interactive with the foster parents, licking faces etc. And even with the young adults the foster parents have that no longer live at home, he is normal when they pop in and out of the home. 

We are moving forward with the adoption, the home visit is tonight. 

Oddly enough, if anyone wants to dissect this behavior; car rides with strangers is an almost instant positive socialization experience for him. When the foster parents picked him up, they spent about 2 hours trying to get him to become acquainted with no meaningful progress. The person surrendering the dog (not the owner) had the same issue picking up Guido from the owners. But said if you get in the car with him and go on a drive he relaxes and will be okay. Sure enough the foster parents got in the driver seat, Guido was put in the back by the person handling the drop off, and by the time they got home, he was fine. There was no aggressive behavior in the car, no fearful barking. 

We are going to try that approach on Monday on our next visit with him. 

Thank you for the responses thus far. I can do all the reading I need to on anxious training, and so far has been very educational. It's nice to be able to hear first hand experience and discuss any questions with actual people though, so thank you again for anyone willing to chime in.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> We met him for the first time last night in the fosters home and were there for about an hour. Lots of barking, wouldn't come near us in the first 20 minutes. By the end of the session he was taking food from hands but retreating to the current foster parents. That's enough progress for me on the first visit, and better than we both expected.


Just for a little context on the word force MrSmith, what you guys did last night would fit the description. With a dog like him, I wouldn't bother trying to convince him strangers are ok by having them try to give him treats. I'd keep him out and around as many things and people as possible, but ask everyone to please ignore him. The less attention towards people outside of who he lives with, I think is better.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> > We met him for the first time last night in the fosters home and were there for about an hour. Lots of barking, wouldn't come near us in the first 20 minutes. By the end of the session he was taking food from hands but retreating to the current foster parents. That's enough progress for me on the first visit, and better than we both expected.
> 
> 
> Just for a little context on the word force MrSmith, what you guys did last night would fit the description. With a dog like him, I wouldn't bother trying to convince him strangers are ok by having them try to give him treats. I'd keep him out and around as many things and people as possible, but ask everyone to please ignore him. The less attention towards people outside of who he lives with, I think is better.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Steve said^^^Any staring,hands out toward him,etc. triggers anxiety.Keeping a comfortable distance from people and observing his surroundings will allow him to relax and acclimate IME.Looking forward to updates!


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Just for a little context on the word force MrSmith, what you guys did last night would fit the description. With a dog like him, I wouldn't bother trying to convince him strangers are ok by having them try to give him treats. I'd keep him out and around as many things and people as possible, but ask everyone to please ignore him. The less attention towards people outside of who he lives with, I think is better.


Thank you for the response. We had a conversation last night with the foster parents about this as well if it was the right thing to do. To clarify on the point, when any stimulus that occurs that would normally trigger an anxious response from him, if he behaves normally we shouldn't reinforce it with praise? Or do you mean strictly, dont force interaction with treats on strangers like we did last night?

Thank you for the help and clarification.

For those interested, here is his pic.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MrSmith said:


> Thank you for the response. We had a conversation last night with the foster parents about this as well if it was the right thing to do. To clarify on the point, when any stimulus that occurs that would normally trigger an anxious response from him, if he behaves normally we shouldn't reinforce it with praise? Or do you mean strictly, dont force interaction with treats on strangers like we did last night?
> 
> Thank you for the help and clarification.
> 
> For those interested, here is his pic.


Always praise when he behaves. If you want calm, praise him calmly. Don't force the interaction. You want to think about how he perceives things, and even if he takes the treat, he may not be thinking what you are about it all. German Shepherds are naturally very aware of everyone, and can be suspicious of them. I find it easier to work on a little indifference towards strangers, by just not focusing their attention on them like you may try with a different dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Your goal for him is to relax and ignore people.He can't relax if he's constantly being targeted by attention.Praise while he's in an anxious state will reinforce the anxiety.Offer a treat or praise him when he's totally chill.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Just for a little context on the word force MrSmith, what you guys did last night would fit the description. With a dog like him, I wouldn't bother trying to convince him strangers are ok by having them try to give him treats. I'd keep him out and around as many things and people as possible, but ask everyone to please ignore him. The less attention towards people outside of who he lives with, I think is better.


This is exactly what my next step was. 

From what you've been saying, I think you're doing the right thing in the right order.
Keep us posted.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Wonder if having all food come from your hands would help? Never had one quite that unsure of new people..would be good, I think, if the current fosters could visit with him in your home..then one variable only? Might check on Leerburg.com to see if Amy arrives or videos on the subject..great site for working breeds


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

He's a very handsome boy!

I had a GSD rescue, about the same age, who was also skiddish around new people and kids. With her I gave a full month to settle, and another one to just stay in the background and observe before doing anything with her other than telling her to come to eat, to be petted, or to go outside. For most of that time I kept all other dogs and people exposure to a minimum, but as mentioned praised her calmly when she remained calm. It was a long time, but I could see after 2 weeks, or even a month, she was still too anxious about certain things to move forward. And it's worth noting that for a full year I did not work with her on anything but basic obedience, just let her calmly build confidence on her own terms and learn focus. At 2 1/2 we took obedience training to a higher level, and she did great. Anyway, since your new dog was under socialized, I thought you might enjoy reading some great material on socialization that members recently posted on a different thread. 

More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar



The Dark Side of Socialization: Fear Periods and Single Event Learning ? Dr. Jen's Dog Blog

All the best to you and your new dog, I have confidence you're going to be great together!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

What a handsome boy and bless you for taking him on. I absolutely agree with the previous posts and so won't repeat the main points. I did want to suggest that you watch his behavior in the car fairly carefully. The absence of barking and backing doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is relaxed. In fact, he may be so overwhelmed (by yet another change with yet more strangers in yet another strange car) that he's simply shut down. You do need to get him home though, so I'd crate him in the car and leave him alone during the trip. Once the two of you know each other, you'll be in a better position to assess whether his seeming 'relaxation' in the car is a good or bad thing. 

Good luck!

Aly


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> He's a very handsome boy!
> 
> More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar
> 
> ...


Thanks Tim! I actually found the thread from The Collared Scholar earlier today, but I have not read "The Dark Side" piece yet. Thank you for posting up that information.

Thank you all for all of the feedback. I agree with all of the points, and I don't expect him to be a social butterfly. My first GSD Diesel was human neutral and I liked him that way. I think with enough training again we can get this one to that level. Monday should be the next meeting with him, good suggestions on the car ride portion. The foster parent originally wanted to do the ride in our car, but I think another normal visit would be best first to see how he reacts to us. Maybe a ride with the foster parent in their car is a better first step when we decide to breach that interaction. 

We are getting the home visit tonight, but he will not be joining.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MrSmith said:


> I have no plan on forcing socialization, especially when we first bring him home. Is two weeks enough? I was planning around 4 weeks, with all of the ins and outs of his recent past. We met him for the first time last night in the fosters home and were there for about an hour. Lots of barking, wouldn't come near us in the first 20 minutes. By the end of the session he was taking food from hands but retreating to the current foster parents. That's enough progress for me on the first visit, and better than we both expected.
> 
> I feel its safe to say he will become a social dog again with enough positive training, its pretty apparent he just wasn't given much attention, or positive attention from his previous owners, but I also don't think he was severely neglected/beaten in order to be fearful of humans. He was very interactive with the foster parents, licking faces etc. And even with the young adults the foster parents have that no longer live at home, he is normal when they pop in and out of the home.
> 
> ...


I had a foster dog like that. She was only 9 months old, same back ground. She needed to leave the home but she wouldn't let me even near her (loud barking and retreating behind a couch) while I was in their home. I told the guy to just put her in my car and I will deal with whatever happens. Well, we hadn't even left the street or I could handle her all over. She sat next to me in the car on a harness. At home it took my husband three weeks before he could touch her. I worked with her for several months with hardly any progress until I drove our entire family crazy. I re-homed her to a lady who was willing to put up with all of this. It was a good home for her; no major distraction or visitors.
The reason why I suddenly could touch and handle her, I think, was that she just clung to the first person she was with and never trusted anyone else. I would be very hesitant to take on a 5 year old GSD like that, depending on your family and goals. But yes, miracles do happen.


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I had a foster dog like that. She was only 9 months old, same back ground. She needed to leave the home but she wouldn't let me even near her (loud barking and retreating behind a couch) while I was in their home. I told the guy to just put her in my car and I will deal with whatever happens. Well, we hadn't even left the street or I could handle her all over. She sat next to me in the car on a harness. At home it took my husband three weeks before he could touch her. I worked with her for several months with hardly any progress until I drove our entire family crazy. I re-homed her to a lady who was willing to put up with all of this. It was a good home for her; no major distraction or visitors.
> The reason why I suddenly could touch and handle her, I think, was that she just clung to the first person she was with and never trusted anyone else. I would be very hesitant to take on a 5 year old GSD like that, depending on your family and goals. But yes, miracles do happen.


Hes just over 1 year old. We currently arent not big social hoster's in our family so it will be quiet for him. Kids are realistically 2 years out or longer. I would be more concerned with the temperament IF he wasn't warming up to "strangers" that are regular. The current foster family has 3 kids living out of the house and they come in and out to visit with significant others and he is fine. So even with infrequent, but familiar contact he appears to do well.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He sounds like he has a relatively stable temperament but limited exposure. You can increase exposure and socialization. But you can’t change temperament, so the fact that he warms up to people is good. I fostered a male like that. He was older when he came to us but had been tied up in a yard most of his life until a couple rescued him and demanded the owner sign a release. However, our dog did not ever care much for strangers unless they passed his secret test. If not, he often tried to bite. If I took on the same dog now, I would use a trainer from day 1.

The two week shutdown is to avoid any upsetting stimulation that may be too much for him to process while he is getting used to you. There is also a honeymoon period of about a month with fosters and rescues in a new home, where you have an open window to work with the dog while they are on “good behavior.” Once they are totally comfortable with you, a dog’s real personality will emerge. So you need to balance a total deficit of extra stimuli with the need to connect with the dog quickly. If you take the dog, find a good private trainer who will come to your house and observe and work with you and the dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How long has he been with the foster family?


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> How long has he been with the foster family?


Thank you for the feedback, the foster family has had him for 5-6 weeks. We are totally on board with the quiet period for him. It worked out well with our last rescue in building her confidence. If training him becomes an issue my wife has a childhood friend that specializes in training GSD/Belgian Malinois for work, he also takes in personal pets, so we do have that resource which is comforting but he does have a busy schedule obviously. 

Does anyone have any recommendations on GSD trainers in the St. Louis, St. Charles MO area? It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup if he is not available in the near future if a trainer is necessary. 

Home visit went well yesterday. We have a scheduled meet for this coming Monday to see him again.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That is enough time for the foster family to have a good idea of his personality and needs. You might want to schedule training now with the busy trainer. You can always cancel later. If he is in your area, ask him for a recommendation for someone who has time for a new client and knowledge of your type of situation and talk to them now. If you have not dealt with this type of behavior before, it can’t hurt to get on top of it right away so it doesn’t escalate into biting. I am speaking from first hand experience.


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

Titan got his first visit from a Police K9 trainer yesterday. Friend of a friend. It was wonderful and reassuring to see what an impact he had on Titan. He spent about an hour and a half with him just getting to know him. We signed up for 3 lessons starting Thursday this week. Thank all for encouraging the use of a trainer, I couldn't agree more after yesterday.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

@MrSmith: That's great news and thanks for the update! When you get a moment, could you describe what the trainer did and how Titan responded? I realize that this is literally the beginning, but 'turn around' stories like this are always so informative. 

Thanks!

Aly


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

Aly said:


> @MrSmith: That's great news and thanks for the update! When you get a moment, could you describe what the trainer did and how Titan responded? I realize that this is literally the beginning, but 'turn around' stories like this are always so informative.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Aly


Sure! This weekend marked the two week point for Titan adjusting to the new home. And it was something he had done wonderfully. We felt confident in his general demeanor that he was ready to start training. The trainer, Brad, is a friend of a friend, and has been training K9 Units and has his own dog training business. When he found out we had rescued Titan from his neglectful home, and the socialization issues, he offered to come by on the weekend to see Titan and how he acted around people for free. 

When Brad first walked in the door, Titan responded in his usual manner. Loud consistent barking and backing away from Brad. This only lasted for a short 15 seconds before Titan approached Brad, and then backed away again barking. After that, Brad informed me he was confident Titan was not barking in an aggressive manner, but he was unsure of himself and his confidence. He noted the way Titan attempted to come forward and see him was a sign that Titan does want to interact, he just does have the self confidence to do so. 

So, I put a collar and a leash on Titan, walked him into the living room and gave Brad the other end of the leash. I may be remembering the term wrong, but he was performing tension training with him. He wouldn't pull Titan, but keep the leash taught, and when Titan moved towards him he picked up the slack, until Titan was close enough to be pet. He would praise him verbally and then give him all of the leash back and perform the repetition again. 

This all took maybe a total of 5 minutes, 3 leash "rounds," and Titan was comfortable with Brad. This was repeated with two other friends in the house, but Brad controlled the leash the entire time. With the other two friends, Brad said it was important to not give Titan time to think about being pet. My friend Larry, was naturally was scared of Titan, hes not much of a dog person. So Titan would get close to him and Larry would put his hands up to wait for Titan to come to him, every time that happened, about 3 seconds later Titan would bark and back away. Brad made the point that you cant give him the time to doubt himself, he wants you to pet him, but "we" have to show him its okay to be pet and its a good thing, do not give him the chance to think it could be bad. 

That was about it for the meet and greet. The rest of the time Brad stayed over and we chatted about his training and other things. Titan didnt bark at anyone else in the house the rest of the time people were there, even the others that didn't do the interaction training with him. 

Brad had his GSD, Brave, in the car and showed us how he's trained but he remained there for the visit. He said Titan is not ready for that interaction right now. His big emphasis was Titan needs to be able to determine actions in black and white. right now hes looking at everything in grey. It could be good, or it could be bad, and with his lack of self confidence, he perceiving things on the more negative side. Brad said there is no show for concern that Titan cannot be corrected. He didn't see any kind of behavior that would indicate hes lacking anything else other than confidence. 

Titan first full session is on Thursday this week. Mostly interaction with Brad and the e-collar.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Very interesting, thanks so much for taking the time to describe the interaction. Hope things go as well on Thursday. 

Aly


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## MrSmith (Aug 21, 2017)

First session went well yesterday. By the end of the session Titan knew what the collar was and its purpose, how to sit, place, come, and "yes" is our release for him. 

There were a few instances where people were walking and playing in the front yard of the house (street has kids that play outside), and I wouldn't have been able to control his barking, much less being able to keep him from running off leash. He sat and stared at them, off leash. No barking. That alone would have been worth the session for us. 

Brad will be back on Friday next week, for now we are to practice the easy stuff and rewarding him. Our "homework sessions" are 3 times a day, 15-20 minutes each continuing to practice; come, sit, place, and "yes" is his indication he did everything right, here is your reward. Next week we are adding in 3 more commands, to build on this week. The final week will be the commands that reinforce positive interaction with others, mainly for Titan the big one is "Say Hi." When we first met his dog Brave, this was his command to nudge your hand if it was low enough, or rub against your legs like a cat.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

I didn’t read all the posts so sorry if this has been mentioned. 

My boy is still 5 months old (and eerily, his dad is **** near identical to your dog in appearance) and I find a lot of tricks for socializing (he’s still very much learning) 

First - get him TIRED before working on socialization. Walk a good mile or two, play fetch for 20 mins, etc. by then, he won’t have the energy to get so excited at people or other animals. During time he’ll also learn they’re harmless and won’t bother him. 

Our pup is obsessed with squeaky balls. Any balls now, but we started him off on squeaky ones. When I am working with him (especially off leash) I keep the ball in my pocket and squeak it for recall and to redirect his attention. I never give him the ball at home. It’s only used for fetch so he keeps his drive high with it and doesn’t play with it all day at home and get “bored” with it. 

Aside from that - Work Work Work. Take him on walks constantly. Take him in public constantly (if you feel safe with him.) it’s a matter of repetition as much as anything. 

I’m heading to my brothers house tonight where my 3 year old niece will be. I’m going to have some intense training with her and him for a long time so he can learn his boundaries with children. Before any of that - my wife will drop us off a mile or two before we get to their house so he’ll be nice and exhausted (I.e. patient) when we get there. 


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