# Anyone have a dog from Royalair?



## Minnieski

Hi!

I have a pup from Royalair Shepherds (Robin Krumm) out of Grinnell IA, and I was wondering if anyone else has a dog/pup from there. Our girl is doing great, I'm just wondering if anyone else has a dog from there.

Pictures would be great!

~Julie


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## Fodder

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=968297&page=0&fpart=1


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## VALIUM

_*Please PM poster if you'd like additional information*_


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## RubyTuesday

Greetings, Julie.

Both of my GSDs are from Royalair. Djibouti just turned 14mos old & Sam (his Grandma) was 10 last Dec. Samantha is Kody's dam & can be seen in his picture pedigree.

I've got 3 other dogs & an Irish Wolfhound coming (hopefully!) within the next year so I'm currently full up on dogs but my next GSD will also come from Robin. I love her dogs. Djibouti has been everything I wanted 10 times over.


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## wbzorker

I'm getting a dog from Royalair in about 10 days.







A boy out of Misty and Silver Mark. This is my third shep puppy and after extensive research for most of last year I am satisfied that Robin and her dogs are respected in the German Shepherd pet community and that she is known for breeding healthy dogs, with good temperments, over many, many years. I've actually had an eye on her kennel for about 6 years now. The type of shepherd she breeds is not considered correct due to it being oversized and with a more relaxed temperament than the dogs that more closely fit the standard. I compete in AKC and UKC obedience and Rally and this type of shep will be perfect for my next partner.

I've been very impressed with the accepting attitude of the wonderful folks on this board. People who like American lines get on well with folks that like German Lines and the length of coat and amount of white on it doesn't seem to impact their friendliness. I'm looking forward to learning a lot about puppy raising techniques when my little bundle of joy comes home.
Who are the sire and dam of your pup?

Wendy


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.I'm getting a dog from Royalair in about 10 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A boy out of Misty and Silver Mark. This is my third shep puppy and after extensive research for most of last year I am satisfied that Robin and her dogs are respected in the German Shepherd pet community and that she is known for breeding healthy dogs, with good temperments, over many, many years. I've actually had an eye on her kennel for about 6 years now. The type of shepherd she breeds is not considered correct due to it being oversized and with a more relaxed temperament than the dogs that more closely fit the standard. I compete in AKC and UKC obedience and Rally and this type of shep will be perfect for my next partner.


Congrats! I've also had my eye on Royalair for quite a while now. I've only heard good things from people I've talked to who have dogs from them (or related to the same lines.) I contacted them about adopting on of their dogs (Candis) but unfortunately someone else snatched her up first.


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## roxy84

im going to ask this question here since this is specifically about this breeder: is this the same breeder who is breeding a grossly oversized male to a female who was not even a year old? is this what a good breeder does? do i have my facts wrong? or can you breed in this fashion ans still have a "good reputation?"


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## DianaM

Derek, same one. To breed with only OFA preliminaries is inexcusable. And sorry, but some of the dogs look like mastiff or malamute mixes.

I just can't consider dogs from Royalair German shepherd dogs. GSDs are medium-large dogs, not giant dogs, and they are working dogs. They are not low drive couch potatoes. But people want low drive golden retrievers in 130 lb German shepherd-looking bodies, so they go to breeders who breed dogs that look like German shepherds but aren't really German shepherds.







To each their own, I guess. 

I applaud the breeders who embrace the standard and work hard to produce German shepherds that look like German shepherds, act like German shepherds, and work like German shepherds, regardless of line.


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## Chicagocanine

I don't have any info except what I read in the other thread, but the person who started that thread said she thought it was an accidental breeding. I can't think of any reason they would breed a dog who was not OFA'd yet since all the other Royalair breeding dogs are OFA'd hips and elbows.


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## Minnieski

Wow, I didn't want to start a fight about Royalair. I love my dog, and I just wanted to see if anyone else out here had a pup from one of her litters so we could compare pics. Jeeze.


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## roxy84

> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiWow, I didn't want to start a fight about Royalair. I love my dog, and I just wanted to see if anyone else out here had a pup from one of her litters so we could compare pics. Jeeze.


well, it benefits everyone to know if a breeder is involved in undesirable and/or unethical breeding practices. i dont see anyone fighting about this. i asked the question because i dont know much about professional breeders and wanted to know if breeding a 12 month old is normal and if breeding oversized gsd's is looked upon as acceptable for some reason in the reputable gsd breeding community. 

if not, then hopefully royalair does not regularly partake in such breeding practices.


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## RebelGSD

Excellent question, I would like to know too. Maybe the breeders on this board will chime in.


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## Doc

The male jumped the fence. Not uncommon in the breeding world. Unfortunately it was discovered too late is my understanding. I do not think the breeding was intentionall - at least I hope it wasn't.
And I'm not sure there is direct relationship between age and number of heat cycles - its does have some variations.

Robin has 100% German shepherds - I've studied the pedigrees. Albeit, very large ones. To insinuate otherwise based on photographs is not a fair assestment. Pictures can be very deceiving. We all know the great variations that are present in the GSD "look".

One thing for certain, she is not breeding based on the standard. In some circles that is absolutely a no-no. For the average homeowner, I'm not sure it matters a great deal. Afterall, they are all German shepherds. The reference to a German shepherd being a Golden Retriever - I'm not sure that comment applies to all large german shepherds. To sterotype all large German shepherds as Golden Retrievers is uncalled for unless you have interacted with that dog. It is like saying all black German shepherds are blood thirsty attack dogs - it's just untrue.

Let's try not to glorify one type of shepherd over another. Can't we all just agree to disagree and live in this community in peace?

"to judge a dog through filtered lenses is an obstacle to dialoge and perspective transformation" doc


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## roxy84

Doc. thank you. that seems a well rounded explanation.


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## DianaM

> Quote:One thing for certain, she is not breeding based on the standard. In some circles that is absolutely a no-no. For the average homeowner, I'm not sure it matters a great deal.


The standard calls for erect ears. Is it okay for breeders to breed dogs with floppy ears and still call them German shepherds? The standard defines the breed and is what makes a GSD different from a malamute or a saluki or a lab. The creator of this breed had a standard in place for a reason. These large dogs cannot participate in much of the work that a normal sized GSD can. Breeders of grossly oversized dogs may believe their dogs can work in SAR, but the minute the dog has an accident and has to be carried out, a very large problem arises because the handler may be able to hoist a 75 lb dog but not a 125 lb dog. These huge dogs also may not be able to squeeze into tight spaces for drug searches. There is a good reason why this breed is supposed to be 55-85 lbs and definitely under 100 lbs. Any higher and it can't do a lot of the work it was bred to do. And since this is the most versatile working breed in existence, breeding dogs that are limited just isn't doing good for the breed. We have shilohs and kings if people want very large GSDs and yes, oversized dogs do crop up in normal litters.

Anyway, this discussion has been beaten to death in many other threads and yes, good breeders have also given their opinion that there is a standard for a reason. I'm excusing myself from this thread, apologies to the OP. I'm just very passionate about this breed and also about other breeds that have been drastically changed/split due to breeders and judges not following their written breed standards.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: DianaM These large dogs cannot participate in much of the work that a normal sized GSD can. Breeders of grossly oversized dogs may believe their dogs can work in SAR, but the minute the dog has an accident and has to be carried out, a very large problem arises because the handler may be able to hoist a 75 lb dog but not a 125 lb dog. These huge dogs also may not be able to squeeze into tight spaces for drug searches. There is a good reason why this breed is supposed to be 55-85 lbs and definitely under 100 lbs.


Actually Royalair has produced several search and rescue dogs, at least 5 according to their website. I have also seen a number of other "oversized" GSDs working as SAR, police or detection dogs. I don't think a larger size means the dog can't work or is too big for SAR. What about all the Newfies who do SAR? 









An "oversized" GSD (not Royalair)


If you look at the pedigrees/Royalair lines, many come from DDR lines and SCH titled dogs and some Siegers:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449051.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449121.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449043.html



As far as Goldens in GSD bodies, I have a GSD who is from West German show/working lines. Her parents are SCHH2 and SCHH3, three of her grandparents are SCHH3 and one is a universal Sieger (Triumphs Gucci.) However she is pretty similar in temperament to my previous dog who was a Golden Retriever. She "flunked out" of Schutzhund at her last home. She is also about 2" over standard in height.


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## Castlemaid

Those pedigrees you posted go back to over 15 years ago. Any GSD can trace back their lineage to German working or show lines (these dogs seem to be a mix of both lines). 

A lot of generations can be bred in 15 years, each generation further and further away from the standard and original intent of the breed's purpose and design. 

I agree with Roxy and Diana on this one, Royalair is only breeding GSDs in name only, the dogs they produce not even resembling their ancestors of only 15 years ago. 

Now every puppy deserves to be in a good home, loved and cared for and adored, regardless or its provenance. So no slight on you or your pup, who I am sure is wonderful! But just trying to educate people on a *GSD* board, what a real *GSD* is supposed to be.


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## wbzorker

Respectfully, I'm not going to do SAR with my new pup. His job with me will be that of a companion that also does AKC/UKC obedience and Rally.
My current partner, Cairo, is a wonderful dog that has taken me to heights in the obedience world that I never even dreamed of reaching. This is his pedigree:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/387589.html
There are no shortage of accomplishments in his lineage.

He is an awesome dog and when I chose him I was looking for the "Golden Middle". Medium drives and thresholds, a thinker with medium energy. We really mesh together and he earned 1st place at the 2007 GSDCA Nationals in Open A. Shortly there after, an ortho specialist discovered that his intermittant "pano" was mild elbow dysplasia in both elbows. At the age of 5 years old I had to retire him from his "job".









I chose Royalair because of their commitment to sound joints -including elbows. My instructions to this breeder are the same as they were 6 years ago. I want the Golden Middle. This breeder produces just what I want. The fact that the dog will be oversized is coincidental.
My last obedience dog had 5 generations of VA and V breeding. This one will have 5 generation of OFA hips and Elbows. An oversized dog with good joints, ultimately, will do the job better than my treasured Cairo, simply because he can DO the job.

FWIW,
Wendy


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## Doc

Isn't funny for some to express their passion about breed standards yet refuse to engage in dialoge (i.e. closed minded) when a German shepherd, yes a German shepherd, isn't within one of the many standards. And put down people who are just as passionante about their line of german shepherds.

I've been accused of being a puppy mill, byb, money hungry bad person even if my German shepherd bloodlines are as good as many others. And if you really look at Silver mark from Royalair, all of his bloodline is from generations of Valentdale dogs who come from Long View stock. For those who fail to recognize the importantance of these lines, dogs that fall outside of the standard will always be viewed as bastardized German shepherds. 

And a German shepherd with a floppy year is still a German shepherd, it only has poor ears according to the standards. Genetically it is still a 100% German shepherd. I love the breed and all dogs that german shepherds weather they conform to the standard or not.

Silver Mark is OFAd as "excellent" but he aint worth a darn because he is 29" tall and over 100 pounds? Therefore, throw away his potential of improving hips because he happens to be too tall and weighs more than he "is suppose to"? Interesting ...


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## Chris Wild

Not going to get into yet another oversized/companion GSD breeding debate, but I did want to address this to make sure there isn't a (common) misconception here.




> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.
> My last obedience dog had 5 generations of VA and V breeding. This one will have 5 generation of OFA hips and Elbows. An oversized dog with good joints, ultimately, will do the job better than my treasured Cairo, simply because he can DO the job.


Those "5 generations of VA and V breeding" would have had hip certs as those (and now elbows) are *required* for a dog to breed in Germany. And "5 generations of OFAs" is no guarantee that your next dog won't have HD or ED. The genetics just doesn't work that way. Breeding joint certified stock reduces the chances of problems, but cannot eliminate them entirely.

Just wanted to point that out since many people mistakenly believe that OFAed parents means it's a sure thing the pups will have good joints, and that's just not the case.


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## roxy84

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Silver Mark is OFAd as "excellent" but he aint worth a darn because he is 29" tall and over 100 pounds? Therefore, throw away his potential of improving hips because he happens to be too tall and weighs more than he "is suppose to"? Interesting ...


but if they keep getting bigger, isnt there going to be a point where the skeleton is going to start to suffer.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Silver Mark is OFAd as "excellent" but he aint worth a darn because he is 29" tall and over 100 pounds? Therefore, throw away his potential of improving hips because he happens to be too tall and weighs more than he "is suppose to"? Interesting ...


There is no guarantee a OFA Excellent will improve hips. Depends on the genetics he carries and the only way to get insight into that is to study his siblings, parents, progeny and other close relatives.

An OFA Fair dog, from a litter of Fairs, produced by two Fair parents who's littermates were also Fairs is going to do a better job at improving hips than an OFA Excellent with several dysplastic relatives.

The point people are trying to make is that while indeed they are ALL GSDs, just being a GSD alone doesn't make a dog worthy of breeding. In truth, only a small percentage of the breed, or any breed, are truly worth of being bred.

So he's OFA Excellent. That's great. If he were the only OFA Excellent out there, and indeed did also have the genetics to improve hips, than your argument here would be valid.

But the truth is that there are plenty of other dogs who are also OFA Excellent, or maybe not Excellent themselves but have exceptional, proven hip genetics, who go well beyond what that dog has to offer the breed because they also meet the standard for size, structure and temperament, have a slew of titles, etc... 

Those dogs, who are exceptional in all regards, not just one, are the ones who should be bred. No one criteria should EVER be paramount in breeding. This breed is about balance, not extremes. That is the root of it's very creation and purpose.


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## DianaM

I know I said I was done with this thread, but had to say this:



> Quote:The point people are trying to make is that while indeed they are ALL GSDs, just being a GSD alone doesn't make a dog worthy of breeding. In truth, only a small percentage of the breed, or any breed, are truly worth of being bred.


DING. 



> Quote:But the truth is that there are plenty of other dogs who are also OFA Excellent, or maybe not Excellent themselves but have exceptional, proven hip genetics, who go well beyond what that dog has to offer the breed because they also meet the standard for size, structure and temperament, have a slew of titles, etc...


DING DING



> Quote:Those dogs, who are exceptional in all regards, not just one, are the ones who should be bred. No one criteria should EVER be paramount in breeding. This breed is about balance, not extremes. That is the root of it's very creation and purpose.


Jackpot yet again, Chris. 



> Quote:I don't think a larger size means the dog can't work or is too big for SAR. What about all the Newfies who do SAR?


In urban SAR, such as during the WTC collapse, oversized and heavy dogs could run the risk of being heavy enough to cause the debris to collapse more, potentially killing themselves and any survivors. They also could not get into tight spaces. In wilderness SAR, if your wonderfully trained newf has an accident and you, the handler, weigh 120 lbs, how in the heck are you going to hoist your 140 lb dog and walk him out of there? Yes, they can DO search and rescue but in certain situations size is a major disadvantage. For what the GSD was bred to be, the most versatile breed ever, 55-85 lbs is the best weight range for the work they are expected to do. Yes, some police dogs are out there that weigh well over 100 lbs but then again, not all police dogs on the streets even belong on the job.


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## wbzorker

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> Doc said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no guarantee a OFA Excellent will improve hips. Depends on the genetics he carries and the only way to get insight into that is to study his siblings, parents, progeny and other close relatives.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, and I'm going to be one of the lucky few that has one of his progeny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm definitely going to study it. lol
> 
> Seriously though, Falco, the dog in this pedigree:
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449051.html
> is only three generations distant in the litter I've chosen. And the sire has 39 AKC obedience titles in his pedigree, mostly CDX and UD. Combined, this lineage appears to be imminently qualified to do the job I need done.
> 
> You are completely correct that joints alone do not a shepherd make, and joints alone are not what I require. Medium drives and thresholds are also important for the job my dog will do. Medium GSD drives and thresholds. A different balance of drives would be preferred for a Schutzhund dog. Yet another balance would be best for a guide dog, and yet another would be best if I was still doing herding. That's the beauty of the breed. They are capable of doing so many different jobs.
> 
> I'm thrilled to hear that the Germans are now requiring elbow certification. After several generations have passed, I'll be back. In the meantime I can only stack the deck in my favor by choosing a puppy that :
> 1. Is from lines already known to produce dogs that excel in the work I need done.
> 2. That has the physical ability to do the job.
> 3. That has the temperament and drives that work best for my preferred training methods.
> 
> You are certainly correct that no dog should be bred when all they have to offer is one exceptional trait. I propose to you that few dogs should be excluded from the gene pool because of one trait either. I've read V. Stephanitz work and studied his descriptions of the early registered GSDs. They are <u>not</u> oversized, but they <u>are</u> dogs with straight toplines and moderate angulation. Continuing to breed dogs that resemble the early sheps (except for size) is simply a way to maintain diversity within the breed. Surely, if AKC show lines are "GSDs" and West German show lines are "GSDs", dogs that look like the early sheps should be accorded at least some measure of respect. An American show line GSD fares poorly when compared to the FCI standard. A West German show line GSD would do the same if compared to the AKC standard. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that v.Stephanitz turned over in his grave at the sight of either one. As he probably would at the sight of the oversized version as well, but he certainly would recognize the balanced structure, steady temperament and strong presence of these dogs as his beloved German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> Wendy
Click to expand...


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## DianaM

> Quote:They are not oversized, but they are dogs with straight toplines and moderate angulation.


Yes, they are working line GSDs and some of the German showlines. No need for this "old fashioned GSD" nonsense (which IS nonsense) when they're happily in existence today. Oversized dogs with straight backs (often sway backs) are not the old fashioned type.

http://www.k9imports.com/DSC_0492%20Dax%20Stack.jpg
That's the REAL old fashioned type.

http://www.freewebs.com/vestagsds/aweb%20Fritz%20stack1.JPG
Small photo, but here is a German showline that is very close to the written standard and is titled out the wazoo. Looks old fashioned but not one of those "old fashioned" dogs bred from long past memories skewed by childhood.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/396695.html
Can't get any more straight-backed than this, and she's #18 in the NATION in agility.

There is no need to fill the niche for "old fashioned straight backed dogs" when they're in existence. But there are people out there with an eye for money, they see this desire, and they capitalize on it, when all along the real old fashioned GSDs, true to the breed founder's dreams and desires, still exist right under our noses. Really, if the breeders would just call them oversized, off-standard dogs, that's fine because that is the truth. But to call them "old fashioned" or "old style" is an outright lie and it misleads so many people to think that GSDs were meant to be 120 lbs with very little angulation and straight or even sway backs. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the trend toward extremes either but these old fashioned breedings are also another extreme. 

In any case, I hope your pup works out for you!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.You are certainly correct that no dog should be bred when all they have to offer is one exceptional trait. I propose to you that few dogs should be excluded from the gene pool because of one trait either.


I agree. We must look at the total dog. No dog is perfect and they all have an undesireable trait or two that needs to be balanced out and compensated for in breeding. 

Accepting an undesireable trait in order to get a bunch of desireable traits that are needed and perhaps not available elsewhere, and then working to compensate for it and minimize the impact of the undesireable trait, even if it takes a generation or two to get that undesireable trait back out of the lines is something all breeders have to face.

But that is very, very different from intentionally bringing in the same undesireable trait over and over again, from many different dogs, never even trying to eliminate it and in fact making selecting FOR that undesireable trait a priority in breeding.


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## Liesje

My reaction to this breeder has less to do with exactly what they are breeding for and more to do with the fact that someone charging such prices doesn't even know the history of the breed, as evident by statements on the web site. Sorry but I would not even buy a correct sized puppy from OFA excellent parents from someone who needs a basic history lesson on the breed!


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## wbzorker

DianaM said:


> Quote:
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/396695.html
> Can't get any more straight-backed than this, and she's #18 in the NATION in agility.
> 
> In any case, I hope your pup works out for you!
> 
> 
> 
> Respectfully, the dog you listed above is recorded on the web site as being dysplastic.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, though.
> 
> Wendy
Click to expand...


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## Doc

Nothing to say about Long Worth lineage? No comments on AKC obedience titles? Or are those things useless in the "reral German shepherd" world. I am not talking Shilo or King shepherds. I am talking about German shepherds are 100% - no mixing, etc. They are large German shepherds, bigger than the standard. And I bet that most of the general public would rather have a straight, not sway back or low rider German shepherd for a pet.

I appreciate all the purist in this profession that breed to the standard. It's not a personal thing to me - it's the interpatation of the standard and the blind following that has cause the 45 degree German shepherd. Surely not what old Max had in mind.

Your argument about weight and SAR is not valid. There are too many sucessful SAR dogs that weigh more than what the German shepherd standard calls for.

So explain to me, since "large, over sized" German shepherd are looked upon less favorably by the AKC conformation crowd and purist, why is it so wrong to pursue other titles - Obedience, Ralley, etc. where their intelligence can shine. Just because they do not conform to the standard, they are still intelligent, loyal, working, protective German shepherds.

I'm sorry but this extremist view of what is a "real" German shepherd and what constitutes a "good breeder" of german shepherds is a sad commentary to those who love this noble animal.

And I am really confused when I am told that "straight back" German shepherds already exist, then I am told that breeding a straight back German shepherd is "also another extreme". I think there is a flaw in that logic, but I could be mistaken.

Chris, I love your dogs and your breeding program. I have a new sable female that is all puppy. She will be working on CD, CDX I hope in the future. (she's too big to be a "real" German shepherd - LOL).


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.
> 
> 
> DianaM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/396695.html
> Can't get any more straight-backed than this, and she's #18 in the NATION in agility.
> 
> In any case, I hope your pup works out for you!
> 
> 
> 
> Respectfully, the dog you listed above is recorded on the web site as being dysplastic.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, though.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. She has Mild HD. Which doesn't affect quality of life or ability to work at all.
> 
> Interesting that Royalaire's guarantee not only makes a statement to that effect, but also uses it as an excuse to not cover Mild HD in their guarantee. It only covers Moderate and Severe.
> 
> They also state that with regards to elbows they will only cover Grade II and above, and ONLY if the ED is in both elbows, stating that genetic ED is "always in both elbows" and ED in one elbow must be due to injury. A complete falsehood.
Click to expand...


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## Smithie86

"http://www.k9imports.com/DSC_0492%20Dax%20Stack.jpg
That's the REAL old fashioned type."

Young dog (1.5 years). I needed someone else to stack him to get a good picture. Gabor and I "do not play well together" when it comes to pictures.









But, Dax is now in training to be a K9 (they love him, I miss him), so no more stack pictures


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.
> 
> 
> Chris Wild said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thrilled to hear that the Germans are now requiring elbow certification. After several generations have passed, I'll be back. In the meantime I can only stack the deck in my favor by choosing a puppy that :
> 1. Is from lines already known to produce dogs that excel in the work I need done.
> 2. That has the physical ability to do the job.
> 3. That has the temperament and drives that work best for my preferred training methods.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> 
> 
> And dogs from an SV breeding would not fit the bill? Where the dogs MUST have hip/elbow certifications. The MUST have a working title which is NOT all protection. They also have to have OB training much more than an AKC CDX or UD title requires. AKC titles do not really test for nerve nor temperament like a SCH titled dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## DianaM

> Quote:Respectfully, the dog you listed above is recorded on the web site as being dysplastic.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, though.
> 
> Wendy


Respectfully re-read why I posted her- for her level back.



> Quote:Yup. She has Mild HD. Which doesn't affect quality of life or ability to work at all.


Thank you, Chris. In no way am I encouraging the breeding of dysplastic dogs, but do remember that an OFA mild can be a passing hip score on another day or even from another country. We've had interesting discussions on that issue, though. Another thread for another day.



> Quote:Interesting that Royalaire's guarantee not only makes a statement to that effect, but also uses it as an excuse to not cover Mild HD in their guarantee. It only covers Moderate and Severe.
> 
> They also state that with regards to elbows they will only cover Grade II and above, and ONLY if the ED is in both elbows, stating that genetic ED is "always in both elbows" and ED in one elbow must be due to injury. A complete falsehood.


I am always bothered by breeders who only guarantee against "crippling dysplasia." A good breeder will guarantee passing scores.


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## wbzorker

DianaM said:


> Quote:
> 
> Respectfully re-read why I posted her- for her level back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. She has Mild HD. Which doesn't affect quality of life or ability to work at all.
> 
> 
> 
> And the line immediately below your post reads "There is no need to fill the niche for "old fashioned straight backed dogs" when they're in existence."
> Since you also pointed out the dog's impressive agility record, I took this to mean that you were satisfied or even proud of the quality of this dog.
> 
> I disagree that a little dysplasia is just fine so long as the dog can work. We will have to agree to disagree about this side issue because my mind is made up on the matter. But why you would disregard the genetic potential of a kennel that has 2 sires with excellent hips and one bitch with the same is puzzling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Interesting that Royalaire's guarantee not only makes a statement to that effect, but also uses it as an excuse to not cover Mild HD in their guarantee. It only covers Moderate and Severe.
> 
> They also state that with regards to elbows they will only cover Grade II and above, and ONLY if the ED is in both elbows, stating that genetic ED is "always in both elbows" and ED in one elbow must be due to injury. A complete falsehood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously, I don't agree with these particular statements and my perfect guarantee would be all inclusive re: joints. In order to buy one of these quality dogs, I have to accept this guarantee. It was a no-brainer for me.
> 
> Folks, many posters have weighed in with approval for this type of GSD, and many posters weighed in with disapproval. Both sides of the issue have been ably represented, which is about all we can ask for it seems. Hopefully future readers of this thread will learn from both sides.
> 
> Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions,
> 
> Wendy
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Amaruq

Something I DID forget to touch on was the SAR dogs that are produced via this kennel. Personally I HAVE done SAR so I do have a decent amount of experience in this area. My girls are on the larger end of the standard and right now I would have an issue hauling THEM out of the woods if they were injured in the line of duty. I would be able to but it would NOT be easy. To have to worry about getting a larger dog out of some of the areas I have worked in would make it nearly impossible. I much prefer the true "old fashioned Shepherd" that are even smaller that my current dogs. Definitely not larger. 

You made your choice and that is fine. It COULD be worse but IMO it could be better. Best of luck.


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## DianaM

Wendy, if you've looked into hips and xrays and how the certifying agencies work, you'll understand that the difference between an OFA fair and an OFA mild could just depend on who's reading the xrays and not so much on the xrays themselves. There are dogs who pass that should not have and there are also dogs that don't pass when they should have. Would I breed an OFA mild dog? That's a very touchy question to answer. I'd have to look at the family history of the sire, dam, their ZWs, and the ratings of the littermates. The dog would also have to be EXTREMELY exceptional in all other areas. Even then it can be a minefield, something that is best left to experts. That's right up with 2-2 breedings, IMO; not something to be attempted unless by an expert where the offspring would go to experts as well.



> Quote:But why you would disregard the genetic potential of a kennel that has 2 sires with excellent hips and one bitch with the same is puzzling.


Because they produce grossly oversized dogs, they disregard the breed standard, they do not work them and title them, and they don't breed for overall correct GSD temperament is why I disregard their genetic "potential." To me, the dogs do not have genetic potential as they are not correct GSDs as outlined by the standard and the SV rules. Also, I don't give a whit that they have two studs that are OFA-E and also an OFA-E bitch. How are their hip productions? How did the littermates score? If the OFA-E dog is from a litter of mostly milds and fairs, I wouldn't touch that dog with a 10-foot pole. But trumpeting "OFA Excellent" sure is a wonderful selling point. 



> Quote:Something I DID forget to touch on was the SAR dogs that are produced via this kennel. Personally I HAVE done SAR so I do have a decent amount of experience in this area. My girls are on the larger end of the standard and right now I would have an issue hauling THEM out of the woods if they were injured in the line of duty. I would be able to but it would NOT be easy. To have to worry about getting a larger dog out of some of the areas I have worked in would make it nearly impossible. I much prefer the true "old fashioned Shepherd" that are even smaller that my current dogs. Definitely not larger.


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## zipfreer

Yes, I have two dogs from Royalair Shepherds I have owned and bread old fashion larger shepherds and trust me they can do whatever you wish to train them to do.They are not couch potatoes! I will take a old-fashioned straight-backed dog then what AKC calls standard German shepherd of today AKC is destroying German shepherds standards show line with dogs Gate manipulation which is unhealthy for the dog American German Shepherd (GSD) as a herding breed dog. How the overall balance and structure is affected by exaggerated angles in this breed so realistically, a true German Shepherd here's a little history probably the best description on German shepherds you tell me , there is no such thing "old fashioned" or "old style" is not a outright lie it's a fact there is a major difference of the real standards and the AKC standards of today. http://leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B. But why you would disregard the genetic potential of a kennel that has 2 sires with excellent hips and one bitch with the same is puzzling.


IMO, hip scores do NOT make an entire kennel/breeding program reputable. There are gazillions of dogs out there with excellent hips that are unproven, if not unsuitable for breeding. I shudder to think of what would (and probably already does) happen when people breed only based on a hip score.


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## Amaruq

But "old fashioned" dogs are NOT larger!


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## zipfreer

I find that most old-fashioned straight-backed or "old style German shepherds are heavier bone which is a more mass as long as there body proportions are balanced. Just because a dog weighs 100 pounds or more doesn't make an unhealthy or overweight proportions balanced is what people should be looking at. I see a lot of unbalanced German shepherds are very large heads in very small hindquarters or large head and a small body,a small head and large bodies totally un-proportionate so if GSD 65 to 80 pounds doesn't make it balance frame GSD.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq My girls are on the larger end of the standard and right now I would have an issue hauling THEM out of the woods if they were injured in the line of duty. I would be able to but it would NOT be easy. To have to worry about getting a larger dog out of some of the areas I have worked in would make it nearly impossible. I much prefer the true "old fashioned Shepherd" that are even smaller that my current dogs. Definitely not larger.



There are plenty of larger breed dogs than that doing Search and Rescue so I would not discount large dogs in SAR work. Rotteweilers, Swiss Mountain Dogs, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Newfoundlands and Leonbergers are used in SAR and even a few Great Danes.
I understand that it can be more difficult to get them out if they were injured, but not everyone could carry a standard-sized GSD out of the woods either. Also I am a little confused about this-- if you do not think you would be able to get an injured dog out of an area, how would you get an injured person out?


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## Amaruq

Because MOST SAR handlers tend to take into consideration that THEY are solely responsible for getting an injured dog out of the woods alone. Medics/EMTs would take injured people out more often than a dog handler would.


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## Amaruq

Heavier bone does not equal a heavier dog. KC and Rayne weigh within two pounds of each other. KC looks a lot heavier because of her bone and structure.


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## Shavy

> Originally Posted By: zipfreerI find that most old-fashioned straight-backed or "old style German shepherds are heavier bone which is a more mass as long as there body proportions are balanced. Just because a dog weighs 100 pounds or more doesn't make an unhealthy or overweight proportions balanced is what people should be looking at. I see a lot of unbalanced German shepherds are very large heads in very small hindquarters or large head and a small body,a small head and large bodies totally un-proportionate so if GSD 65 to 80 pounds doesn't make it balance frame GSD.


Do you realize, though, that these ARE NOT OLD-FASHIONED SHEPHERDS?? They may or may not be healthy or joint/bone-stressed, but it is a fact that 100+ lb GSDs did NOT exist when the breed was first conceived. The German Shepherd is meant to be a medium-large breed, not a giant, because dogs in this size range are more quick and agile and better able to perform the tasks GSDs were bred for. 

I don't like the idea of breeding oversized dogs, but I recognize that this is a trend in many breeds today (just look at pitbulls that are now weighing 90 lbs - fully twice what they should - because people think "bigger" is "cooler"). However, breeding these dogs is one thing, and passing them off as "close to the original" is another. Royalair may or may not have nice, healthy dogs (I've never met them, their dogs, or their progeny), but what they do not have is shepherds that resemble what the breed was 50+ years ago. To be honest, their dogs (in the photos) seem to lack a homogeny all together, which is a huge red flag to me. If the breeder can't even produce similar-looking dogs, structure-wise, what exactly are they breeding for? Size alone and a claim to "old fashioned" makes for great marketing, but it doesn't make for a better shepherd. JMHO.


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## IliamnasQuest

On a practical note: large/giant breeds of dogs tend to have shorter lifespans. It's just a fact of life - they break down younger and die younger (as a generality). It's kind of rare to see mastiffs and great danes in their teens, but not unusual to see properly-sized GSDs in their teens (I have one that will be 13 in May).

I started out with an oversized GSD. He was a gorgeous dog, big and powerful and with a lot of presence. I trialed him in AKC style obedience and earned a UD with him (he was my Novice A dog, too). But because of his size, he was unable to jump competition heights by the age of seven. It wasn't due to dysplasia .. he just was a big boy and like most big dogs his joints didn't keep up with his mental acuity. I babied him along until I finally gave in and had him euthanized at 11. Broke my heart to lose him that young.

My current girl, Trick (the nearly 13 year old) is about 70 pounds and she was still showing in agility at age 9. The difference in the longevity of viable movement is obvious between the two dogs. 

I truly can't understand why anyone would want to make our GSDs into a large/giant breed. Why do that to the poor dogs? Personally I want my dogs with me as long as possible - they are far more than a mere competition dog to me, they're my companions and best friends. I will never get an oversized shepherd again. I won't support those who choose to do this to our breed.

For anyone who wants to compete in any venue .. I highly recommend getting a GSD that is within the breed standard if you want one that will go the long haul (and yes, I know .. there are always exceptions .. but the general rule is the bigger the dog, the younger they die).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:Yup. She has Mild HD. Which doesn't affect quality of life or ability to work at all.
> 
> Interesting that Royalaire's guarantee not only makes a statement to that effect, but also uses it as an excuse to not cover Mild HD in their guarantee. It only covers Moderate and Severe.


That's the 'pet guarantee'. The guarantee/warranty for breeding dogs specifies passing OFa scores as well as erect ears. For most pet homes this is a non-issue b/c the pups are sold on limited registration & pet owners rarely bother to OFA. As you (& the Royalair breeder) have noted mild HD doesn't impact quality of life. Unless they xray, people are rarely even aware of it.



> Quote:They also state that with regards to elbows they will only cover Grade II and above, and ONLY if the ED is in both elbows, stating that genetic ED is "always in both elbows" and ED in one elbow must be due to injury. A complete falsehood.


I've read that several places besides the Royalair website. It seems to be a matter of controversy & not a 'complete falsehood'.



> Quote:IMO, hip scores do NOT make an entire kennel/breeding program reputable. There are gazillions of dogs out there with excellent hips that are unproven, if not unsuitable for breeding. I shudder to think of what would (and probably already does) happen when people breed only based on a hip score.


I agree. She's NOT breeding based only on hip scores. Her dogs are all around healthy, long lived, smart, biddable, with great personalities & very nice temperaments. Her criteria are not yours, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have any. Nor are her dogs Goldens with GSD ears & coloring. Goldens are stunning dogs. Surely if people wanted Goldens they'd get them. 

OFA isn't strictly B&W, but a search of OFA scores shows her scores improving through the years. She receives fewer 'Fairs' than she did some years back & considerably more 'Goods'. Her dogs are structurally sound, active & athletic. People who actually have dogs from her, train them & live with them, rave about 'em. 

While it's true the GSD standard hasn't changed, it's also true that enforcement of it has. Over sized GSDs, including some that were considerably over sized, were often tolerated, given a wink, a nod & a pass until recent years. The 'official stats' might be official, but in many cases they aren't factual. Many large, even very large GSDs, are hidden within the less than honest stats.


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## RubyTuesday

Melanie, Royalair's dogs are as sound & live longer than many good show & working lines standard sized GSDs. It's a valid concern, but individual lines/dogs need to be assessed. GSD health & longevity is sadly all over the place & all too often an unholy mess. 

FTR, Anatolians are generally healthy, sound & long lived & they're very large. To get a truly impressive leap in longevity you need to look at Chis, Toy Poodles, Yorkies etc.


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## Amaruq

> Quote:
> FTR, Anatolians are generally healthy, sound & long lived & they're very large. To get a truly impressive leap in longevity you need to look at Chis, Toy Poodles, Yorkies etc.


Yes, indeed. As Melanie mentioned:



> Quote:On a practical note: large/giant breeds of dogs tend to have shorter lifespans. It's just a fact of life - they break down younger and die younger (as a generality). It's kind of rare to see mastiffs and great danes in their teens, but not unusual to see properly-sized GSDs in their teens (I have one that will be 13 in May).


Chis. Toy Poodles and Yorkies are all small dogs. Generally speaking smaller dogs = longer lives.


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## zipfreer

Funny how ppl do not talk about AKC so call standard German shepherd of today AKC or that show lines are destroying German shepherds standards show line with GSD Gate manipulation talk about lack a homogeny they can't move in a natural lateral gate. They critcise bluilding up the line but do not talk about tearing it down to show which is more unhealthy for the dog then American German Shepherd large/giant breeds. My dogs lived 15 to 17yrs All dogs are individuals and to treat them as so. As for their ability for example to make large/giant GSD to jump competition heights! I personally would know better to do so but thats my opinon. My large/giant GSD are bred for home protection to jump to knock down a large individuals I found that people are getting larger so must the GSD for protection to handle the individual and multiple attackers. I have seen a 200+ man throw 75 pound GSD with great bite drive like a toy. I feel large/giant GSD is bred for this .It my be over kill but most people are much heavier today then before mass = force . Do to their temperament they make great family dogs a plus for home protection.


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## Emoore

How do you know they're bred for home protection if they're not titled or worked?


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## Smithie86

There are other working line breeders that the contract only covers moderate to severe HD. Not even borderline or mild HD. Same as what is being stated above.


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## Castlemaid

I've seen 60lbs female working-line GSDs bring down helpers on the field.

I know a 65lbs male RCMP dog that will fight to the death and is lightening fast. Takes your breath away watching this dog work.

Weight is not the issue when talking about properly trained protection dogs that have been bred to work.


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## DianaM

Zipfreer, ever see a Belgian malinois work? They're very small and light yet they tend to take down large helpers with ease. I'd much rather have a small, agile dog than a big lumbering monster for home protection. A big dog is a good visual deterrent but that's about that. You're right, it IS overkill. Breeding a GSD that large is definitely overkill. 

Do you work your dogs in schutzhund or any other protection sports? Any videos of them working? Any titles? Or are they bred on the notion that large dogs are somehow better for protection? You'll note that police officers and the military tend to choose malinois, German shepherds, Dutch shepherds, giant schnauzers, and rotties but the most dogs seen out there are mals, dutchies, and GSDs. Rotts weigh a lot but tend to be about the same height as an in-standard GSD or a bit taller. Giant schnauzers are about the same weight/height range of a GSD, give or take. Now police and military know a thing or two about service/protection dogs and they deal with plenty of large people. Notice how they don't use ginormous breeds? They break down easily, they're less agile, they're slower, the size is an overall disadvantage. If large size were good, we'd see a lot more giant breeds working the street, but we don't and for good reason. Giant GSDs are a disaster for the breed and misleading to the public if they're advertised as being better for home protection.


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## BlackGSD

Diana,

If I were a criminal, I would MUCH rather have a "ginormous" GSD coming after me than a "standard" sized GSD or a Mal. (I would have a better chance of getting away!







) If I went over a 6+ foot tall fence, most likely the ginormous dog wouldn't be able to get over it after me and the cop wouldn't be able to pick it up to put it over!


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## DianaM

Tracy, absolutely!

A malinois or a small GSD can fly over walls. A giant dog, well if it's big enough maybe it'll go THROUGH the walls.
















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N14aRiN9qg
Can YOUR 120 lb GSD do this and NOT break down by the age of four?


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: DianaMCan YOUR 120 lb GSD do this and NOT break down by the age of four?










(They can't do it AT ALL.)


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## DianaM

If I had a yard, I'd build a palisade with a downward ramp. Just as much fun without the impact of jumping down nine feet. With practice, I bet Renji would sail over the wall.









I tell you, no one could PAY me to take an oversized GSD. I want my next one to be well boned but also on the mid-to-low end of the size standard.


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## BlackGSD

I've had an oversized dog. (Not intentionally, he was just a freak that ended up being 29 inches tall and 99lbs. Even with all that height, he would have been WAY fat if he was 110lbs+.)

Again I ended up with one that is over height(for a female) at 25 1/2 inches (so far.) But she is THE most athletic and fastest GSD I have ever been around. BUT she also only weighs 63lbs right now.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestOn a practical note: large/giant breeds of dogs tend to have shorter lifespans. It's just a fact of life - they break down younger and die younger (as a generality). It's kind of rare to see mastiffs and great danes in their teens, but not unusual to see properly-sized GSDs in their teens (I have one that will be 13 in May).


This is true in giant breed dogs. However if you look at Royalair's website you will see quite a few dogs who are 12 or older. These are not giant breed dogs, they are large GSDs.




> Originally Posted By: AmaruqBecause MOST SAR handlers tend to take into consideration that THEY are solely responsible for getting an injured dog out of the woods alone. Medics/EMTs would take injured people out more often than a dog handler would.


Yes, but if there is someone (medics, EMTs, other search workers, etc) able to take injured people out then they could also take an injured dog out if needed.





> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> If I were a criminal, I would MUCH rather have a "ginormous" GSD coming after me than a "standard" sized GSD or a Mal. (I would have a better chance of getting away!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Do you think a criminal would really understand that a larger GSD might be less able to leap after him? Or would they be more freaked out by the big dog and not thinking about size vs. agility?
There are quite a few police dogs with an 85+ pound weight, I don't think that prevents them from doing their jobs or they would not be working as police dogs.


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## Amaruq

It is obvious that you have never worked in SAR. Medics are not about to carry out a dog, they are typically called in once a find is made. There MIGHT be a first responder out in the woods but it is the handlers responsibility to carry their own dog if need be. Yes, there may be SOME larger breeds involved in SAR but it is definitely NOT the norm.


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## Amaruq

And 85 pounds is with the standard for a male GSD.


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## Shavy

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> There are quite a few police dogs with an 85+ pound weight, I don't think that prevents them from doing their jobs or they would not be working as police dogs.


Do you know of any good working GSDs that weigh 120 lbs? 85 lbs is a far cry from a 120 lb behemouth that is nearly double the size of a working GSD and of the TRUE original GSDs. A dog that big doesn't work because it just _can't_. It's far, far less agile than the smaller dog. Look at who is creaming other breeds on the agility field - it's border collies and aussies, who are using their small size to their advantage - they're SUPER quick and agile. A dog the size of a great dane is nowhere near as fast or as responsive, and has a harder time getting their bulk over hurdles and fences. 

I respect someone wanting to preserve the "old time" shepherds, but that is what responsible _working_ breeders are doing. THEIR dogs look like the shepherds of old. People who breed straight-backed, 100+ shepherds are at best extremely ignorant of their chosen breed, and at worst, making up new standards and then lying in order to market the pups. 

If you can't like the breed the way it is and was supposed to be, choose a different type of dog.


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## SunCzarina

> Quoteo you know of any good working GSDs that weigh 120 lbs?


yep - well he was working for 8 years, recently retired Cranston RI K9 Keura (sp). WELL over 120 lbs, out of czech lines. I saw him doing a few demos over the years - that dog could work. He was fast and hit hit hard. Kinda scary the time I saw him quietly chewing his kong at his handler's feet about 5 minutes after he nailed a guy.


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## Chicagocanine

About large working GSDs, check out the one I posted on the first page. 

Here are a few more:









"This photo was taken in West Sussex, England, in August 1993, where the police very kindly demonstrated to us their Olderhills in action. I'm holding Ben (Olderhill Lofty) the hero of their station." 










"Storm, has been on patrol since December 2001. Storm is a black & tan German shepherd. He was born on September 18, 1999 and he weighs *100 pounds*." 


http://www.schererville.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=50 
"In Honor Of "Boss" *105 lbs* In Service from July 4th 1994 to May 18th 2006
In Honor of "Karr" *100 lbs* In Service from 1999 to Feb 23rd 2006"
"Both of the police dogs are German Shepherds which were purchased from breeders in the Czech Republic by the Landheim Training Center in Dyer, Indiana."


From the CIA's K9 Hall of Fame website:
"Hey everyone! I’m Dino. I am a German Shepherd. .... I weigh *110 pounds*"
"I’m Orry. ... I weigh* 100 pounds*."


http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=113585 (article)
"All three dogs and handlers have been responding to regular police calls..."
"Tank, a 2-year-old *120-pound *German shepherd..."


"Police dog takes his job seriously" (article)
"The pressure of the sleeve tightens all around my arm as I swing to the side like a bull-fighter with the *120-pound* German shepherd hanging off me and shaking my limb like a rag doll. "

http://www.ricsar.org/sarnewsevents.html 
"Former resident and his dog are part of search and rescue team" (article)
"Fisher, a *120-pound *German shepherd"

"Utah K-9s tackle copter training" 
"Reed's partner, Dukes, is the largest K9 of his class, weighing a "conservative" *110 pounds*"

http://www.cityoflowerburrell.com/k9.htm 
"Benny is a male German Shepherd, 5 years old, weighing* 110 pounds*. ... Benny was trained in Patrol (obedience, tracking, building searches, aggression/apprehension), and Narcotics"


http://archive.ci.roseville.mn.us/police/k9/Unit_Past_Members.html








"Ice was the top dog in his K-9 Minneapolis Police Department class.
He was awarded the Minnesota Hall of Fame Professional Award in 1996 by the MN Veterinary Medical Association. He took 3rd place in the Regional Criminal Apprehension trials in 1996. ... Weighing in at *110 pounds*, Ice was successful in tracking and apprehending many suspects during his six year career with the Department. "

Canines Combat Crime 
"Hartman said that Chesterfield’s K-9 unit has eight dogs .... “The unit has one that is *110 pounds.*“" "

http://www.azcentral.com/families/articles/0801tiny-drugdog01-ON-CP.html 
"For the last seven years, there has been one top dog in the Geauga County Sheriff's Department - Brutus, the big German Shepherd has been the go-to canine."
"*125-pound* Brutus..."


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## DianaM

How many of those are estimates or exaggerations, especially if the media are involved?







100, 105, no big deal, Top-of-standard males that are heavy boned can easily be that weight.

As to the guy with the 120 lb SAR dog, congrats on their certification, but I hope the guy never has to carry out his dog, or I hope he weighs twice as much as his dog does. If I were in SAR, that dog would weigh more than I do so if an accident happened, I could carry out 80 lbs if I had to but 120? The dog would be pushing up daisies where he fell.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: DianaMHow many of those are estimates or exaggerations, especially if the media are involved?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100, 105, no big deal, Top-of-standard males that are heavy boned can easily be that weight.


On the CIA site, MANY of them are FAT.

Funny how the "100+ pounders" look EXACTLY like any other 85-90 lb dog! Probably because they are ACTUALLY closer to that weight.


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## Chicagocanine

I did not realize that officials would leave an injured SAR dog out in the woods if the handler was not able to carry the dog out. If this is the norm I have no idea why so many large/giant breed dogs are used in Search and Rescue if they are just going to be left for dead if they're injured. If that is the case Bloodhounds should not be used for SAR either, as according to the national breed club they can weigh 130 pounds or more.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine If that is the case Bloodhounds should not be used for SAR either, as according to the national breed club they can weigh 130 pounds or more.


However the mean average weight of a male in "fair" condition is 90lbs. (According to the AKC breed standard.)


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine If that is the case Bloodhounds should not be used for SAR either, as according to the national breed club they can weigh 130 pounds or more.
> 
> 
> 
> However the mean average weight of a male in "fair" condition is 90lbs. (According to the AKC breed standard.)
Click to expand...

True, but the standard also says, "The greater weights are to be preferred, provided (as in the case of height) that quality and proportion are also combined."


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## DianaM

The AKC standard _actually_ says this about weight:



> Quote:The mean average weight of adult dogs, in fair condition, is 90 pounds, and of adult bitches 80 pounds. Dogs attain the weight of 110 pounds, bitches 100 pounds. The greater weights are to be preferred, provided (as in the case of height) that quality and proportion are also combined.


So they prefer 110 lbs, not 130 lbs or more. Just because they can hit 130 lbs does not mean they should. Humans can reach the height of 8 feet, should we strive for that? Not unless we want to aim for half the normal lifespan. And while this is the standard, this is also the SHOW standard. Show bloodhounds (and many dogs) tend to be a little "thicker" for the show ring. I'd hazard a guess that many working bloodhounds aren't as heavy as you think and probably are in MUCH better condition than the dogs trotting the ring.


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## Doc

The OP asked a simple question - "Anyone have a dog from Royalair"? DianaM, do you have a dog from Royalair? If not, why are you spending your time downgrading every German shepherd that doesn't meet the standard? The OP wanted input from someone who has a Royalair dog. The constant rambling about large "off -standard" german shepherds is getting old - even to one who knows what the standard is. Besides, you dimissed yourself from this post pages ago - but yet you are still blasting away on your soap box.

The OP is getting a German shepherd from Royalair. All you are giving her is your script about standards. If you can't help the OP with the question ......


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## Amaruq

Like I said before, if you have not been involved in SAR you really have no ideas WHAT all it takes. I also said there are SOME oversized dogs but that is HARDLY the norm!

I never said the dog would be left in the woods to die- nice exaggeration! I know many dogs exaggerate their dogs size because in this country bigger seems to mean better when it is not always true. As I said KC looks like she weighs a lot more than she does especially when she is with her littermate.


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## Chicagocanine

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> So they prefer 110 lbs, not 130 lbs or more. Just because they can hit 130 lbs does not mean they should. Humans can reach the height of 8 feet, should we strive for that? Not unless we want to aim for half the normal lifespan. And while this is the standard, this is also the SHOW standard. Show bloodhounds (and many dogs) tend to be a little "thicker" for the show ring. I'd hazard a guess that many working bloodhounds aren't as heavy as you think and probably are in MUCH better condition than the dogs trotting the ring.


I didn't say that the AKC standard preferred 130 pounds. I said that the national breed club said that they can weight 130 pounds or more. The AKC stands does say that greater weights are preferred.

In fact when I was looking at police and SAR websites for the stats of some of the working GSDs I noticed a number of working bloodhounds whose stats listed their weight as 110-130 pounds which is why I mentioned it. 





> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> I never said the dog would be left in the woods to die- nice exaggeration!



It wasn't an exaggeration. It was something another person said:


> Originally Posted By: DianaMIf I were in SAR, that dog would weigh more than I do so if an accident happened, I could carry out 80 lbs if I had to but 120? The dog would be pushing up daisies where he fell.



To the OP (Minnieski) I don't have a Royalair dog but I hope you will post some photos in the pictures section? I would love to see your puppy!


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## Brandon Coker

nm...I'm staying out of this.

But grats on the pup! Post a pic if you get a chance. 

There are a lot of "hardcore" GSD fans on this board that go by a standard of what the GSD was/is supposed to be. 

What you were looking for may not be the same thing a lot of these guys look for in a GSD. So they might come across a little critical but it's just a difference of opinion.


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## Betty

Second the request for photos! And a big congrats on your new puppy.


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## Emoore

Yes, not matter what their background, we all melt at puppy pictures.


----------



## Minnieski

I want to thank everyone for successfully hijacking my thread. As I said from the start, I do not want to start of fight about Royalair. My dog is not a Golden Retriever in a German Shepherd costume, and you can check her pedigree if you don't believe me. All I wanted to do was see if anyone else had a dog from this breeder, and see some pics. Please PM me if you'd like to share pic/stories of these wonderful dogs.

Anyway, I'll try and post some pictures. They start at 7 weeks and go up to 12, with two pics at 11 weeks (the wind blew and her ears stayed up for a few minutes).


----------



## Betty

She is adorable!


----------



## Brandon Coker

> Originally Posted By: Betty101She is adorable!


Yeah she is!


----------



## Emoore

See? I told you-- melting. I'm going to start carrying around puppy pics to break up fights and controversies wherever I go.


----------



## Minnieski

> Originally Posted By: EmooreSee? I told you-- melting. I'm going to start carrying around puppy pics to break up fights and controversies wherever I go.


LOL, me too!


----------



## marksmom3

That is one cute puppy!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

How VERY CUTE!!! Congrats on your new puppy she is absolutely adorable ))


----------



## wbzorker

> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiI want to thank everyone for successfully hijacking my thread.


You're right, that was rude of us. Sorry...









She's a lovely puppy. Hope mine looks half as good


----------



## Emoore

If you're not used to thread hijacks by now, you must be new to the internet in general and bulletin boards in particular. Nothing personal, it happens a lot.


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

I love the 5th picture - ears straight up!


----------



## RubyTuesday

Minnieski, she's adorable. I love her expressions. I think your girl is gonna be a beauty!

As I posted waaay back in this thread, I have 2 Royalair dogs & couldn't be more thrilled with 'em. Sam was 10 in Dec & Djibouti will be 16 mos old the middle of March. 

I really, really, realllly need to get pictures of them. IF & when I do I'll post them.


----------



## Allen13

*Robin Krumm*

Hi Julie, I have two shepherds from Robin Krumm. One is really from her sister breeder, Noelle Shepherds. We get comments on them all the time. We have a female, Molly and a Male, tucker. Molly is almost two and Tucker is 10mo. They learn very quickly and are very smart. I will have to see how to down load some of the pictures so I can send them. We have a ton of them!




Minnieski said:


> Hi!
> 
> Hi Julie, I have two shepherds from Robin Krumm. One is really from her sister breeder, Noelle Shepherds. We get comments on them all the time. We have a female, Molly and a Male, tucker. Molly is almost two and Tucker is 10mo. They learn very quickly and are very smart. I will have to see how to down load some of the pictures so I can send them. We have a ton of them!
> 
> 
> I have a pup from Royalair Shepherds (Robin Krumm) out of Grinnell IA, and I was wondering if anyone else has a dog/pup from there. Our girl is doing great, I'm just wondering if anyone else has a dog from there.
> 
> Pictures would be great!
> 
> ~Julie


----------



## Franksmom

My pup is from Rosehall but his paternal grandparents are Silver Mark and Shadow from Royalair.
He's 8.5 months old, and doing great in his obedience classes.


----------



## deaninmn

We have a Royalair pup, from Duke and Ella. Maximus is the best pup ever. Black and cream, smart, easy going. We spent almost two years looking for the right dog/breeder for us. Healthy dogs with excellent family temperament were what we were looking for. No slopey back ends. Robin breeds big, strong, easy going family pets. All her dogs are checked for DM, and all have hips and elbows ofa'd. Yes, they are bigger than what some would call standard... for us, that's just a bonus. Her big dogs have proven to be as long-lived as any other large breed.


----------



## steadyeddy

*Lane 2.5yr old male pup from Royalair.*

I haved owned Lane since he was 4 months old. As most know that is a little behind th power curve with bonding and training. Lane has been a very easy pup to train and he has adapted to our family quite readily. Lane is 110lbs and can jump into the back of my 08 Dodge 4X4 pickup with the tail gate up. Very fast and athletic pup. Behavoir? I had surgery this past summer and was ambulatory, a strange male with his shirt off came to our front door in the middle of the day. My 19yr old daughter answered the door (glass screen door) with Lane at her side. As trained Lane lit up barking and snapping at the stranger who backed from the screen door and into the yard. My daughter feeling no threat put her hand on Lanes head giving the command "ok" and "quite". Lane stop's his aggression, staying by my daughter at the door until the stranger left. But this is the same pup I take to my 15yr old daughters X Country meets w/ hundreds of people and accepting complete strangers attention and hugs. Lane keys off his family for when it is time to "chill" or turn it on or when it is social time. A very smart adaptable pup. I'm very pleased with him but he does like to sleep w/ my wife for naps and tends to lay on her like a fur blanket.


Minnieski said:


> I want to thank everyone for successfully hijacking my thread. As I said from the start, I do not want to start of fight about Royalair. My dog is not a Golden Retriever in a German Shepherd costume, and you can check her pedigree if you don't believe me. All I wanted to do was see if anyone else had a dog from this breeder, and see some pics. Please PM me if you'd like to share pic/stories of these wonderful dogs.
> 
> Anyway, I'll try and post some pictures. They start at 7 weeks and go up to 12, with two pics at 11 weeks (the wind blew and her ears stayed up for a few minutes).


----------



## steadyeddy

*Urban rumors.*

As a law enforcement officer for the past 22yrs I have seen Belgians and "smaller size" shepards work in both street and in prison situations. Granted both have their qualities and short comings but a larger GSD imposed a more "oh sh*$" reaction from the perp than a smaller dog. I have seen perp's & prisoners take a "smaller" very aggresive dog and fling it around. But I never seen anyone swing a "larger shepard" around but I have seen many perp's pulled down and shook like a rag by a larger GSD. If I had to pick a canine I would be looking at a large GSD. Very imposing and can back it up. My GSD is 110lbs (weighed on the vet's scale) and is an very athletic pup w/ the size to back it up. I compare my GSD to a linebacker w/ world class speed in other words a first round draft pick. The other "smaller, high drive breeds" I find very difficult to handle and train compared to GSD's. I have trained Chesapeake's since 1990.They are not a well known breed that is readily trained without a few disagreement's along the way to a great dog.


Shavy said:


> Do you know of any good working GSDs that weigh 120 lbs? 85 lbs is a far cry from a 120 lb behemouth that is nearly double the size of a working GSD and of the TRUE original GSDs. A dog that big doesn't work because it just _can't_. It's far, far less agile than the smaller dog. Look at who is creaming other breeds on the agility field - it's border collies and aussies, who are using their small size to their advantage - they're SUPER quick and agile. A dog the size of a great dane is nowhere near as fast or as responsive, and has a harder time getting their bulk over hurdles and fences.
> 
> I respect someone wanting to preserve the "old time" shepherds, but that is what responsible _working_ breeders are doing. THEIR dogs look like the shepherds of old. People who breed straight-backed, 100+ shepherds are at best extremely ignorant of their chosen breed, and at worst, making up new standards and then lying in order to market the pups.
> 
> If you can't like the breed the way it is and was supposed to be, choose a different type of dog.


----------



## shugarhey

Minnieski said:


> Hi!
> 
> I have a pup from Royalair Shepherds (Robin Krumm) out of Grinnell IA, and I was wondering if anyone else has a dog/pup from there. Our girl is doing great, I'm just wondering if anyone else has a dog from there.
> 
> Pictures would be great!
> 
> ~Julie


Hi Julie,
My pup's sire is from Royalair Shepherds. My boy is excellent, and all that I have read about her pedigree is positive. I know this post is pretty old but I would love to know about your input/opinion of the breed now that you have invested years. Or... anyone else that has information.


----------



## steadyeddy

*Royalair*

I have three GSD from the Royalair lines in Grinnell IA. All are wonderful pups and dedicated family dogs. Obviously I like them because I have three. 2 males 4yrs old, 2 yrs old and a female that is 10 months old.

All get along well with our farm cats and have been trained to stay in our 1 acre yard without a "pet fence". They just want to please you and love there people.


----------



## shugarhey

That's great to know! Thanks

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----------



## Knnichols

*Roxie Sue GDS: Knnichols from Illinois*

I don't have a picture of our Roxie, but we bought her from Robin of Royalair GDS on March of 2006. She's a fabulous dog, loving, sweet and protective. However, she has to take pancrezyme for years and she's had both femoral heads removed from both hips at the 
University of Illinois Vet Clinic. She was supposed to be free from HD, too, but guess someone was wrong. Even with all we've been through, I would never give up this wonderful girl. She's my love and life.

Nancy


----------



## Jake1955

I have been watching the Royalair site for 2 years now. I hope to get a pup from them some day-when my current dogs are gone. I have been around german sheppards all my life. My Dad was in the army special service and worked with german sheppards. When he left the army-we raised german sheppards for them. Our dogs were large-120lb males. Todays german sheppards are not what the standard was. Todays are medium size, roach hip, and aggressive. Old fashion german sheppards were large, loving, gentle working dogs. Wonder why the police departments no longer use them? BREEDING has changed what they now are. I applaude Royalair for bringing back the old standard and can't wait to someday own one!


----------



## Minnieski

It has been 5 years since I started this thread. PLEASE PM me if you would like more information on my experience with this breeder. It has not been positive.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jake1955 said:


> I have been watching the Royalair site for 2 years now. I hope to get a pup from them some day-when my current dogs are gone. I have been around german sheppards all my life. My Dad was in the army special service and worked with german sheppards. When he left the army-we raised german sheppards for them. Our dogs were large-120lb males. Todays german sheppards are not what the standard was. Todays are medium size, roach hip, and aggressive. Old fashion german sheppards were large, loving, gentle working dogs. Wonder why the police departments no longer use them? BREEDING has changed what they now are. I applaude Royalair for bringing back the old standard and can't wait to someday own one!


:headbang:


----------



## LaRen616

Jake1955 said:


> I have been watching the Royalair site for 2 years now. I hope to get a pup from them some day-when my current dogs are gone. I have been around german sheppards all my life. My Dad was in the army special service and worked with german sheppards. When he left the army-we raised german sheppards for them. Our dogs were large-120lb males. Todays german sheppards are not what the standard was. Todays are medium size, roach hip, and aggressive. Old fashion german sheppards were large, loving, gentle working dogs. Wonder why the police departments no longer use them? BREEDING has changed what they now are. I applaude Royalair for bringing back the old standard and can't wait to someday own one!


They are German Shepherds *NOT* German Sheppards.

Royalair and Kalmes Acres do a lot of breedings together, my GSD is from Kalmes Acres and they both are not good breeders.


----------



## Castlemaid

The standard was NEVER 120 lb dogs! 

You'll find that the military and police are more interested in medium size dogs for their speed, endurance and agility.


----------



## LoveEcho

One post, on this thread. I smell a troll. :shrug:


----------



## Andaka

Castlemaid said:


> The standard was NEVER 120 lb dogs!
> 
> You'll find that the military and police are more interested in medium size dogs for their speed, endurance and agility.


Besides, who wants a 120 lb dog sitting in their lap in the helicoter?


----------



## Jd414

Who cares about the standard a dog is a dog love them regardless...

I am curious tho about what people have experienced with Royalair as I have a Royalair pup. Please pm me your experiences and thoughts. I don't care about the standard or them being oversized so don't inbox that thanks

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----------



## Castlemaid

Well if people want a big dog - that is their choice - but hate to have false info spread around.




Andaka said:


> Besides, who wants a 120 lb dog sitting in their lap in the helicoter?


:rofl:


----------



## Freestep

Jake1955 said:


> I have been around german sheppards all my life.


Funny that you've been around German SHEPHERDS all your life and you still can't spell the name right.



> Todays german sheppards are not what the standard was.


So tell me, what is this "standard" that you speak of, and how do today's "german sheppards"[sic] differ from this standard?



> Todays are medium size, roach hip, and aggressive.


What is a "roach hip"? And how does "medium size" differ from the standard, which calls for 90 lb. at the maximum? And how do oversize, non-aggressive dogs perform guard, protection, and patrol work for the military? Do they sit on the enemy and lick them to death?



> Old fashion german sheppards were large, loving, gentle working dogs. Wonder why the police departments no longer use them? BREEDING has changed what they now are. I applaude Royalair for bringing back the old standard and can't wait to someday own one!


So what is this "old standard", and how is Royalair "bringing back" this standard? Can you direct me to a copy of this "old standard"? How does it differ from today's written standard? Show me a picture of an "Old fashion" GSD from the early 1900's. Compare them to current Royalair dogs. 

Also, GSDs are still very much in use by police departments and military. They do not want oversize, non-aggressive, loving dog to combat the enemy. If your family raised 120 lb. loving non-aggressive dogs for the military, I'm sorry to say that the dogs you bred likely washed out, and were euthanized. Because that is what the military used to do with dogs that didn't make the cut. They were considered equipment, and if they could not perform the needed duties, they were disposed of. Sad but true.

If you want an oversize, non-aggressive, loving working dog, that is fine, but that is not what the written GSD standard calls for. Of course, if you're talking about a "german sheppard", they might have a different standard than the German Shepherd does.


----------



## DaniFani

Until RoyalAir or any of the other "old world" breeders breed ONE dog that performs *successfully* in ONE area meant for GSD's (military, police, SchH, herding, etc) I wouldn't recommend them to someone wanting a true german shepherd, they are false advertising...the creator of the breed would be sick over what these "old fashioned/straight back" breeders are bringing to the table....that's great you want a couch potato that you "think" will protect you..but there is a standard for a reason, and it isn't breeding over-sized, black and tan, couch potatoes....just my humble opinion.


----------



## DaniFani

Oh, and my old dog wasn't from Royalair, but had the same "promises" and pet lines...that dog, God bless him, was a basket case and wouldn't have protected anything....and barking/growling that he did came from a base of fear...not stable/strong/ at all....


----------



## Castlemaid

One can disagree with the aims of a breeder without trashing them - be careful of breeder bashing, as that is against forum rules.


----------



## Knnichols

I own a 8 yr. old GSD from Royalair and was guaranteed she wouldn't have HD, but she did, but we've had both hips repaired. One was done by our own vet and the other by the University of Illinois. After water therapy and cold lazer treatments, she's
doing very well. She is large (about 114 lbs), but she is the most loving dog you will ever meet. However, she is very protective if she thinks that I am in danger. Anyhow, she is the best dog I've ever had and I wouldn't take a million dollars for her!


----------



## PhilR

I am an owner of a Royalre GSD. He is now 6 months old and the nicest, smartest dog you can meet. I have no desire to debate those who bash and put down breeders that don't breed to "standard". I only know my dog is part of my family and is wonderful. We are constantly stopped by people who marvel how handsome he is. He is also a big boy. At 6 months he is 27 in. at the shoulders and 84 pounds. Robin is doing an amazing job at Royalair and her dogs are the proof.


----------



## onyx'girl

Welcome PhilR! Your puppy is only 6 months....I sure hope the joints and structure will hold up to his size at 6 yrs of age.


----------



## DaniFani

Knnichols said:


> I own a 8 yr. old GSD from Royalair and was guaranteed she wouldn't have HD, but she did, but we've had both hips repaired. One was done by our own vet and the other by the University of Illinois. After water therapy and cold lazer treatments, she's
> doing very well. She is large (about 114 lbs), but she is the most loving dog you will ever meet. However, she is very protective if she thinks that I am in danger. Anyhow, she is the best dog I've ever had and I wouldn't take a million dollars for her!


Are enzyme/pancreas/stomach issues genetic?? I know obviously hips/elbows are, and I now know a few people from these breeders now that have had to have hips reconstructed/rebuilt.....I've also now heard from people (several) that have pancreas/stomach issues, just curious if anyone knows if those are generally genetic, flukes, or unknown?


----------



## Myah's Mom

I agree, do not breeder bash. Breeders have different goals, although they should stay within or very close to the breed standard.

Myah's father is a Silver Mark son. He is DM clear, super sweet, protective, healthy and a perfect GSD family pet.

For those who want to show their dogs, get a show dog. For those who want to work their dogs, get a working dog. For those who want a family pet that brings ALL the wonderful things that GSDs are (because, quite frankly, we can agree they are an amazing breed), then don't bash them or the breeders that breed those with a bit less drive (making them outstanding family pets for the average family), as long as they are improving the genetics. 

Myah is a stunning gal. Her 16 wk Penn Hip put her in the 80th percentile.


----------



## onyx'girl

Myah's Mom said:


> I agree, do not breeder bash. Breeders have different goals, although they should stay within or very close to the breed standard.
> 
> Myah's father is a Silver Mark son. He is DM clear, super sweet, protective, healthy and a perfect GSD family pet.
> 
> For those who want to show their dogs, get a show dog. For those who want to work their dogs, get a working dog. For those who want a family pet that brings ALL the wonderful things that GSDs are (because, quite frankly, we can agree they are an amazing breed), then don't bash them or the* breeders that breed those with a bit less drive* (making them outstanding family pets for the average family), *as long as they are improving the genetics.*
> 
> Myah is a stunning gal. Her 16 wk Penn Hip put her in the 80th percentile.


How are they 'improving' the genetics when they aren't breeding to or by the standard? opinion doesn't equal improvement


----------



## Freestep

Myah's Mom said:


> For those who want to show their dogs, get a show dog. For those who want to work their dogs, get a working dog. For those who want a family pet that brings ALL the wonderful things that GSDs are (because, quite frankly, we can agree they are an amazing breed), then don't bash them or the breeders that breed those with a bit less drive (making them outstanding family pets for the average family), as long as they are improving the genetics.


How are they "improving" the genetics?


----------



## Jd414

Freestep said:


> How are they "improving" the genetics?


How are they not?

This board is beginning to be a waste of my time. Nothing but grown men and women acting like cry babies. My dog wasn't bred to the "standard" but that doesn't mean your dog is better. I'm sure your dog has more or just as many issues as any other GSD. Let it go ppl large gsds are here and they're gonna stay whether u like it or not.

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----------



## onyx'girl

Jd414 said:


> How are they not?
> 
> This board is beginning to be a waste of my time. Nothing but grown men and women acting like cry babies. My dog wasn't bred to the "standard" but that doesn't mean your dog is better. I'm sure your dog has more or just as many issues as any other GSD. Let it go ppl large gsds are here and they're gonna stay whether u like it or not.


Considering the GSD is supposed to be a working utility breed, the larger structure holding up over a 13 yr lifespan isn't usually happening, unless of course that GSD is living life on a couch...


----------



## Jd414

onyx'girl said:


> Considering the GSD is supposed to be a working utility breed, the larger structure holding up over a 13 yr lifespan isn't usually happening, unless of course that GSD is living life on a couch...


What was the GSD bred for? Educate me

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----------



## onyx'girl

German Shepherd Guide - Home this site should do it.


----------



## Discoetheque

Myah's Mom said:


> For those who want to show their dogs, get a show dog. For those who want to work their dogs, get a working dog. For those who want a family pet that brings ALL the wonderful things that GSDs are (because, quite frankly, we can agree they are an amazing breed), then don't bash them or the breeders that breed those with a bit less drive (making them outstanding family pets for the average family), as long as they are improving the genetics.


Not going to say anything about the Royalair dogs, because I Don't know them, have never met one and it's not my place, but my response to this sentiment is this: 

They should ideally be all the same dog. Far fetched, I know, but it's what should be striven for. The dog should conform structurally and be in good health, be able to do the work it was created for, and then come home and exist peacefully. The breed is being done no favors by these kinds of splits and divisions into over-the-top drives, beauty with no spirit and personal visions of what somebody else's creation SHOULD be while sacrificing what is already established and was working.


----------



## boomer11

I feel defenders of the oversized german shepherds are proud of their dogs for a few years but then change their tune as their dog gets older and health issues start popping up. I mean a 120 pound female?!? Yikes! 

I also feel people who love the oversized gsd's haven't really had a chance to hang out with other shepherds. My first gsd was a big boy. I was proud of it. Then we hung out with 3 other gsd's and they ran circles around my dog. At least 3x more athletic and so quick and so much stamina. Seeing my boy look so sluggish made me no longer proud but embarrassed.


----------



## Jd414

boomer11 said:


> I feel defenders of the oversized german shepherds are proud of their dogs for a few years but then change their tune as their dog gets older and health issues start popping up. I mean a 120 pound female?!? Yikes!
> 
> I also feel people who love the oversized gsd's haven't really had a chance to hang out with other shepherds. My first gsd was a big boy. I was proud of it. Then we hung out with 3 other gsd's and they ran circles around my dog. At least 3x more athletic and so quick and so much stamina. Seeing my boy look so sluggish made me no longer proud but embarrassed.


Can't speak for everyone but I've been around gsds of all sizes and colors.... Oh and are large gsds the only ones who have health problems with age? Thought that was common regardless of size.... 

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----------



## onyx'girl

So the reason for breeding oversize GSD's is what?


----------



## LoveEcho

The GSD is a WORKING breed. The dogs who excel in working are NOT large 
(hence the trend towards the malinois.. I weep for the day someone decides to start producing "old world, big boned malinois"....). I will never condone a breeder who breeds for size above all else.

The "old world" thing is such a con... these dogs were never, ever supposed to be 100+ lbs.


----------



## alexg

onyx'girl said:


> So the reason for breeding oversize GSD's is what?


 Rhetorical question, right? There is no good reason at all. Some ignorant people like the largest dog to feel better about themselves. Why not Mastiff then?


----------



## Jd414

onyx'girl said:


> So the reason for breeding oversize GSD's is what?


Don't know... What's the reason for breeding only all black or only sable gsds?

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----------



## alexg

My Ignore list just got another entry.


----------



## Jd414

alexg said:


> My Ignore list just got another entry.


Your ignore lost is meaningless. This is the internet... You ignoring me or any one else won't stop anything. It certainly won't stop large gsds from being bred. You're simple minded and need to be more open to change instead of bashing new things

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----------



## LoveEcho

Jd414 said:


> Don't know... What's the reason for breeding only all black or only sable gsds?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Anybody who produces for color only should be given just as little of regard as anyone who produces for size.


----------



## Jd414

LoveEcho said:


> Anybody who produces for color only should be given just as little of regard as anyone who produces for size.


Exactly...

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----------



## LoveEcho

Jd414 said:


> Exactly...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


So your argument is....? 

Nobody on this thread has ever condoned breeding for color, ever. Breeding for the STANDARD, which revolved around WORKING ABILITY, is key.


----------



## onyx'girl

this argument has been hashed out again and again.
If you want a big hairy lug, the King Shepherd may be a good option. That was developed for the ones that want the look of a GSD but not the size or work ability.


----------



## Jd414

LoveEcho said:


> So your argument is....?
> 
> Nobody on this thread has ever condoned breeding for color, ever. Breeding for the STANDARD, which revolved around WORKING ABILITY, is key.


I don't have one. No one ever condoned breeding ONLY for size either. 



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----------



## LoveEcho

onyx'girl said:


> this argument has been hashed out again and again.
> If you want a big hairy lug, the King Shepherd may be a good option. That was developed for the ones that want the look of a GSD but not the size or work ability.


:thumbup:

If it (very vaguely) looks like a duck, but doesn't quack like a duck or act like a duck, it probably shouldn't be called a duck.


----------



## Jd414

onyx'girl said:


> this argument has been hashed out again and again.
> If you want a big hairy lug, the King Shepherd may be a good option. That was developed for the ones that want the look of a GSD but not the size or work ability.


Lol.... You ppl.... Lol. They still gsds

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## Castlemaid

All right, ENOUGH with the subtle personal attacks and the back and forth snipping! 

ADMIN

Now,posting with my GSD owner and breed supporter private individual hat on:

Remember that people often talk about breeders and the breed in GENERAL. Nobody is saying that their dog is better than someone else's regardless of where it came from. Every dog born on the planet deserves a loving home where he or she is appreciated, idolized, adored, spoiled to death. No one is judging someone else's dogs value as a pet, companion, working partner, family member best friend. 

We should be proud of our dogs, because they should mean the world to us, whether mutt, rescue, BYB or well-established working lines. As living, sentient, emotional beings, they are priceless and deserve our pride and our love. 

Many of these comments are to highlight BREED issues. So breeder X breeds oversized dogs - not everyone agrees with that, but that is not an attack on your dog! Heck, my dog is oversized at over 27 inches tall - he wasn't bred big on purpose, he just decided that he will grow that tall on his own. Doesn't mean that I'm any less proud of him or that I love him any less. But my choice for a breeder will always be one that chooses to breed to within the standard size, because that is what I want to support).


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## onyx'girl

Jd414 said:


> Lol.... You ppl.... Lol. They still gsds


 lol No they are mixed breeds to make the "King" lol

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/kingshepherd.htm
Origin

American dog breeders Shelley Watts-Cross and David Turkheimer developed this large breed from American and European German Shepherd Dogs, Alaskan Malamutes and Great Pyrenees. An official breed club was established in 1995


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Jane, the size issue/the color issue/wl vs sl/ has been hashed to death here..

I've had one of those BIG german shepherds, he was big lug who made my couch look nice Not his fault, we loved him anyway. I don't want another one..my choice.

There will always be breeders who breed for size/color/not to standard, to each his own .. People will purchase what they wish from whom they wish.

We all love our dogs no matter where they came from. 

At this stage of my life, I worry about what's in my own backyard more than someone elses..

To each their own


----------



## LoveEcho

Many of these comments are to highlight BREED issues. So breeder X breeds oversized dogs - not everyone agrees with that, but that is not an attack on your dog! Heck, my dog is oversized at over 27 inches tall - he wasn't bred big on purpose, he just decided that he will grow that tall on his own. Doesn't mean that I'm any less proud of him or that I love him any less. But my choice for a breeder will always be one that chooses to breed to within the standard size, because that is what I want to support).[/QUOTE]

YES. EXACTLY. My dog is oversized. I love him more than life. However, in many OTHER respects he's also an extremely poor representation of the breed. Since I've gotten him, I've come to learn what constitutes a breeder I would support would be. 

Any time you're touting size over anything else, size that doesn't even fall remotely within the realm of what the dog is supposed to be, you're breeding for size only. When size is your selling point, you're breeding for size only.


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## Jd414

Castlemaid said:


> All right, ENOUGH with the subtle personal attacks and the back and forth snipping!
> 
> ADMIN
> 
> Now,posting with my GSD owner and breed supporter private individual hat on:
> 
> Remember that people often talk about breeders and the breed in GENERAL. Nobody is saying that their dog is better than someone else's regardless of where it came from. Every dog born on the planet deserves a loving home where he or she is appreciated, idolized, adored, spoiled to death. No one is judging someone else's dogs value as a pet, companion, working partner, family member best friend.
> 
> We should be proud of our dogs, because they should mean the world to us, whether mutt, rescue, BYB or well-established working lines. As living, sentient, emotional beings, they are priceless and deserve our pride and our love.
> 
> Many of these comments are to highlight BREED issues. So breeder X breeds oversized dogs - not everyone agrees with that, but that is not an attack on your dog! Heck, my dog is oversized at over 27 inches tall - he wasn't bred big on purpose, he just decided that he will grow that tall on his own. Doesn't mean that I'm any less proud of him or that I love him any less. But my choice for a breeder will always be one that chooses to breed to within the standard size, because that is what I want to support).


It may not be a personal attack on my dog!!! BUT... This is a GSD board! All GSDs should be welcome. Those who don't like the oversized variant should go elsewhere or not comment at all!!!!!!



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## LoveEcho

Jd414 said:


> It may not be a personal attack on my dog!!! BUT... This is a GSD board! All GSDs should be welcome. Those who don't like the oversized variant should go elsewhere or not comment at all!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


All GSD's ARE welcome. My dog, who is an oversized nutcase, has gotten lots of love on this board since I've been here. It's people who produce dogs LIKE him who are not loved on. It's people who are contributing to where this breed, at a very fragile point, goes in the future.... they're the ones who have to earn the love.


It has NOTHING to do with the dog. ALL dogs are loved here. It's the producers who come, rightfully so, under scrutiny. 

My dog, for all his faults, is my soul mate. I will never, ever, ever support a breeder like his again, however.

Rescues are loved just as much as top sport dogs here. It's NOT the DOG, it is the PRODUCER.


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## Freestep

Jd414 said:


> How are they not?
> 
> This board is beginning to be a waste of my time. Nothing but grown men and women acting like cry babies. My dog wasn't bred to the "standard" but that doesn't mean your dog is better.


No one ever said "my dog is better than yours", so who is crying? There are, however, most definitely some *breeders* who are better than others.

And you forgot to tell me how this particular breeder is "improving" the gene pool. I'd really be interested to hear how their particular bloodline is an "improvement" on the original working dog. They aren't breeding to standard, which means they are creating something other than what the founder of the breed meant them to be. If you want to breed hairy, oversize couch potatoes, that is fine, but please don't try to call them GSDs, because GSDs are meant to be working dogs with a certain temperament, drive, and working ability. 

If all you want is an oversize couch warmer that looks sort of like a GSD, get one of the Shiloh Shepherds or something.


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## Jd414

Freestep said:


> No one ever said "my dog is better than yours", so who is crying? There are, however, most definitely some *breeders* who are better than others.
> 
> And you forgot to tell me how this particular breeder is "improving" the gene pool. I'd really be interested to hear how their particular bloodline is an "improvement" on the original working dog. They aren't breeding to standard, which means they are creating something other than what the founder of the breed meant them to be. If you want to breed hairy, oversize couch potatoes, that is fine, but please don't try to call them GSDs, because GSDs are meant to be working dogs with a certain temperament, drive, and working ability.
> 
> If all you want is an oversize couch warmer that looks sort of like a GSD, get one of the Shiloh Shepherds or something.


Obviously you are crying because you're still going on and on. How is your breeder improving the breed? Please provide FACTS!

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## LoveEcho

Jd414 said:


> Obviously you are crying because you're still going on and on. How is your breeder improving the breed? Please provide FACTS!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


So...working titles (working, what this breed was created to do), mean nothing I suppose.


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## boomer11

an over weight or over sized human being is still a human being and loved by their family and friends but its hard to argue that being overweight/super tall puts more pressure on their structure (joints) as well as put more pressure on their organs (heart has to work harder to pump blood to someone who is super tall) making them more prone health issues. if you are overweight then you are unhealthy and your immune system is more compromised and you are more prone to health issues. just look at humans who are at least 7 feet tall. the median age that they live to barely reaches 60 years old. dogs would be the same. elephants would be the same. polar bears would be the same. hard to argue with that.


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## Jd414

LoveEcho said:


> So...working titles (working, what this breed was created to do), mean nothing I suppose.


I never said they mean nothing

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## Freestep

Jd414 said:


> Obviously you are crying because you're still going on and on. How is your breeder improving the breed? Please provide FACTS!


My breeder...

Works her dogs, competes and titles in IPO, Herding, AKC Obedience, AKC Tracking, Agility, and probably does other things I don't know about. Dogs of her breeding have gone on to be police k9s, Search & Rescue dogs, IPO3's, Service dogs, and Guide dogs, as well as pets.

She X-rays her breeding stock to ensure they are free of hip/elbow dysplasia.

She studies pedigrees and watches dogs work, watches their offspring work, and knows more about bloodlines than I can ever hope to. Upon this she makes thoughtful breeding decisions.

She looks at the whole dog, not just the titles, but the dog's attitude, health, conformation, and demeanor off the field, whether he is approachable, etc. 

Basically, she does everything she can to ensure both sire and dam are of the best quality, do justice to the standard, and that their bloodlines compliment each other.

Any reputable breeder should be doing these things, and there are many who are. Unfortunately, there are even more who do nothing with their dogs but breed them, know nothing about pedigrees, the breed standard, or correct temperament, nor do they care. 

I still don't know how Royalair is "improving" the breed.


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## Jd414

boomer11 said:


> an over weight or over sized human being is still a human being and loved by their family and friends but its hard to argue that being overweight/super tall puts more pressure on their structure (joints) as well as put more pressure on their organs (heart has to work harder to pump blood to someone who is super tall) making them more prone health issues. if you are overweight then you are unhealthy and your immune system is more compromised and you are more prone to health issues. just look at humans who are at least 7 feet tall. the median age that they live to barely reaches 60 years old. dogs would be the same. elephants would be the same. polar bears would be the same. hard to argue with that.


I agree if they are "overweight". I'm talking large and lean healthy dogs not fat dogs. 

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## Jd414

Freestep said:


> My breeder...
> 
> Works her dogs, competes and titles in IPO, Herding, AKC Obedience, AKC Tracking, Agility, and probably does other things I don't know about. Dogs of her breeding have gone on to be police k9s, Search & Rescue dogs, IPO3's, Service dogs, and Guide dogs, as well as pets.
> 
> She X-rays her breeding stock to ensure they are free of hip/elbow dysplasia.
> 
> She studies pedigrees and watches dogs work, watches their offspring work, and knows more about bloodlines than I can ever hope to. Upon this she makes thoughtful breeding decisions.
> 
> She looks at the whole dog, not just the titles, but the dog's attitude, health, conformation, and demeanor off the field, whether he is approachable, etc.
> 
> Basically, she does everything she can to ensure both sire and dam are of the best quality, do justice to the standard, and that their bloodlines compliment each other.
> 
> Any reputable breeder should be doing these things, and there are many who are. Unfortunately, there are even more who do nothing with their dogs but breed them, know nothing about pedigrees, the breed standard, or correct temperament, nor do they care.
> 
> I still don't know how Royalair is "improving" the breed.


I don't know if they are "improving" the breed and its cool that your breeder is doing all those things. That's her thing and I applaud that. BUT... They are still GSDs. 

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## Doc

In case anyone has forgotten, the almighty Standard used today is not the Standard drafted and written by von Stephanitz. 
Perhaps one should look at the foundation dogs of Royalair before you assume things. There are many lines back to well known German shepherds of the past.


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## Castlemaid

Yes of course. All pedigrees will trace back to well-known foundation dogs of the past. That is what makes them pure-bred. But a breeder can't sit on the laurels of famous dogs 10 - 20 generations back - they need to put in the work and make a name for themselves and their dogs by showing that their dogs have the temperament and the work ethic of what the breed is meant to be, just as Freestep's breeder does.


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## Huxley

Huxley is 3 years old now his grandsire is Royalair's Silver Mark. He weighs in at 110 lbs. and is very agile playing on playground equipment and moving through any terrain I can put him through, I have tested this in the state park we live by. So far he's healthy but he is only three. He's very obedient off leash as well as on, has great social skills around strangers he's been to a few ballgames. I dont know much about the breed standard or working lines but come and grab one of my daughters around him and he'll rip your throat out! Being nervous about getting a german shepherd because we have australian shepherd's that are very intelligent, we are not disapointed. I think anyone promoting the breed can't deny those are great qualities and thats how Royalair has improved the standard. He is not allowed on the couch but takes a nap on the bed once in a while.


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## Freestep

Doc said:


> In case anyone has forgotten, the almighty Standard used today is not the Standard drafted and written by von Stephanitz.
> Perhaps one should look at the foundation dogs of Royalair before you assume things. There are many lines back to well known German shepherds of the past.


So, tell us, how do the "old" and "new" standards differ? 

What are these "foundation" dogs we should be looking at?

What has Royalair done with their dogs in the generations since these foundation dogs?

Honest questions. I don't know anything about Royalair except that they breed oversize dogs, and don't seem to work with or title their breeding stock.


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## Suka

I think it's funny breeders who specifically breed for oversized call themselves "old fashioned" since old time breeders definitely bred for work, not a large cumbersome size. I'm not going to go into condemnation because though I do personally think that conformationally the dogs don't look good and I know that size leads to health issues which worries me but...

I did not sit and pore over the website and inspect every single dog they are breeding, but out of the random few I selected, Royalair not only OFAs after 2 years of age, but I'm seeing genetic testing done, including for DM which is great. One snippet I noticed during my skim of the website was "Warning on OFA(hips and elbows)there are Many Large old Fashioned breeders that say they OFA and They do not! if you don't see the Certificate or the number on the websight Do not believe it ! I have even seen one person use a DM certficate and call it an OFA Certification ! be very careful very few old time breeders actually do OFA! Sadley I believe around 50% say they OFA and do not ..Do you want to buy from a breeder who lies about OFA right on their websight? I certainly would'nt....."

Okay, so they didn't spell check their website either and I'm a snob who feels that alone lends less credibility. I just can't help it!

Freestep is right on target with the description of a breeder doing as they should FOR the breed, not just a sale. However, there's worse than Royalair. Just sayin'


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## Freestep

Huxley said:


> I think anyone promoting the breed can't deny those are great qualities and thats how Royalair has improved the standard.


 how is this an "improvement" on the standard? Have you read the standard?


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## Doc

The owner of Royalair is dyslexic which may explain some errors on the web-site. The old Kuhn dogs are in the background along with the old DDR bloodlines.
Just do your homework before you throw breeders under the bus. They may not conform to today's need of breeding biting machines that score points in some sporting event but many know more about breeding balanced dogs and German shepherds that live long healthy lives.


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## boomer11

Jd414 said:


> I agree if they are "overweight". I'm talking large and lean healthy dogs not fat dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


actually no thats not true. being oversized does put a lot of strain on the joints (especially the legs). take for example yao ming and greg oden. they are two nba players that are 7 feet tall and before they turned 30 have had to have multiple surgeries on their knee/feet. they exercise and eat healthy but because of their height, their legs break down faster. an oversized dog is one that cannot run as fast or jump as high or is as athletic as the median. 

while i personally would not want to own an oversized shepherd, the breeders that do are doing something right because there is a market for it. there are clearly people out there who want huge german shepherds.


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## bill

Just a thought wolves weigh 120 pounds and up they can run alnight I have 9 month 84 pound male runs and jumps like a dear

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## bill

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## GsdLoverr729

Gray Wolf Fact Sheet | River of No Return | Nature | PBS
Actually, gray wolves are generally the largest wolves. Their wild weight range is 50-110 lbs, so a wolf that is 120+ lbs would be at a severe disadvantage in the wild.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/wolf/
The largest wolf ever captured/hunted in the wild was recorded at 175 lbs. But he was very young to be in the condition he was. As other people are saying, being so oversized quite simply stresses the joints. It also stresses the heart and lungs in some cases.


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## Saphire

bill said:


> Just a thought wolves weigh 120 pounds and up they can run alnight I have 9 month 84 pound male runs and jumps like a dear
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


at 84lbs he is within the breed standard, I would certainly hope he can run.


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## Jd414

boomer11 said:


> actually no thats not true. being oversized does put a lot of strain on the joints (especially the legs). take for example yao ming and greg oden. they are two nba players that are 7 feet tall and before they turned 30 have had to have multiple surgeries on their knee/feet. they exercise and eat healthy but because of their height, their legs break down faster. an oversized dog is one that cannot run as fast or jump as high or is as athletic as the median.
> 
> while i personally would not want to own an oversized shepherd, the breeders that do are doing something right because there is a market for it. there are clearly people out there who want huge german shepherds.


The ones I've read about regularly live to be around 13 years of age.

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## Jd414

Doc said:


> The owner of Royalair is dyslexic which may explain some errors on the web-site. The old Kuhn dogs are in the background along with the old DDR bloodlines.
> Just do your homework before you throw breeders under the bus. They may not conform to today's need of breeding biting machines that score points in some sporting event but many know more about breeding balanced dogs and German shepherds that live long healthy lives.


I don't know much about pedigrees but here's a link to my royalair dogs pedigree that shows some DDR lines

http://royalair.org/falcojrpedigree.html

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## Castlemaid

Yes, I agree Doc, many breeders know a lot about breeding balanced dogs with DDR backgrounds, that are clear headed, will step up and defend when needed, won't back down no matter how one-sided the fight, yet still make for wonderful house pet, thrustworthy, have perfect OFF switches, are completely safe around kids and small animals, yet can still be called on to perform in sport or work and be a wonderful house pet.  THAT is more important to me than a number on a scale. 
And I applaud all breeders whose breeding focus is the above.

Dogs that can be evaluated for police work, pass with flying colors, and come off the testing field and be back to being a friendly, cuddly outgoing dog that anyone can pet. Hats off to breeders of such dogs! And they do exist, because I've just described Gryffie.  (See, a dog out of standard, but still a balanced, capable GSD with correct temperament. )


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## Jd414

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, I agree Doc, many breeders know a lot about breeding balanced dogs with DDR backgrounds, that are clear headed, will step up and defend when needed, won't back down no matter how one-sided the fight, yet still make for wonderful house pet, thrustworthy, have perfect OFF switches, are completely safe around kids and small animals, yet can still be called on to perform in sport or work and be a wonderful house pet.  THAT is more important to me than a number on a scale.
> And I applaud all breeders whose breeding focus is the above.
> 
> Dogs that can be evaluated for police work, pass with flying colors, and come off the testing field and be back to being a friendly, cuddly outgoing dog that anyone can pet. Hats off to breeders of such dogs! And they do exist, because I've just described Gryffie.


I agree with all of the above.

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## Castlemaid

Jd414 said:


> I don't know much about pedigrees but here's a link to my royalair dogs pedigree that shows some DDR lines
> 
> Untitled Document
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Many of these dogs in the pedigree are from American show lines - I see that Royalair has been breeding their own line for many generations. This should make them very knowledgeable about what they are breeding, and what they are producing. 

I'm not a pedigree expert - Doc might be able to pinpoint exactly which lines in the pedigree go back to DDR, but I didn't see any known DDR dogs until I went back to the 70's, following links in the pedigree database. 

At this point, the DDR in the lines is very dilute, and not sure of the validity of the claim that the dogs have DDR in them if you need to go back that far in a pedigree to find any, when the majority of the lines are going back to American show lines and lesser known pet lines (not saying that they are bad dogs - just not what I would consider to be DDR lines). Would be fair to say that Royalair lines are lines of their own, with a breeding program focused on size and easy-going temperament. 

Someone more versed in pedigrees might be able to pinpoint the DDR lines better, and be able to identify the percentage of DDR in the pedigree.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gawd reading this thread its pretty easy to tell who has never worked a dog.. Get a great Dane and call it a day.


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## Doc

The top line is full of Valiantdale dogs - all going back to the Long Worth Kennel and Lloyd Brackett who built his line from German imports. His out of print book on planned breeding is a classic.
Royalair's line goes back to their male line (Falco)from the Kuhn brothers- who were/are respected breeders from years ago. The Tumbledown line is also a well know line from the past. All of these breeders and kennels were active during the Golden Age of German shepherds in this country. Royalair, thru research and a carefully thought out breeding plan has kept these types of dog around for future generations to enjoy.
I would think, with the current condition of the breed, having this underutilized bloodlines around will,one day bring the German shepherd breed back to its foundation - a balanced working dog; not some show pony or sport dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Who cares what the pedigree is if the dogs havent been worked for generations? How can you properly select breeding stock when all your doing is a CGC? A hallmark of BS breeders is when they tell you all about the dog's parents, grandparents or second cousin on the mothers side and not the dog itself. 

I can have a litter of WL pups with a nice ped. Keep back a female, do a CGC, breed her to an oversized male with no working titles, washed out pigment and broken down pasterns, keep back a female from that breeding etc etc etc. The resulting generations may look ok on paper but without testing my breeding stock do i really know what I have?

Just curious..


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## Suka

Not to derail too much off topic, but in answer to Doc - the reason I am squitchy about the spelling and errors is the lack of professionalism and credibility that poor spelling and grammar creates on a business website. It would be more lucrative to have someone else check it, or even use a spellchecker which is available freely. As the decades progress, however, I'm finding that fewer people care or even notice it. 

Otherwise, I'm finding this a very interesting and informative thread regarding human nature and dogs.


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> The top line is full of Valiantdale dogs - all going back to the Long Worth Kennel and Lloyd Brackett who built his line from German imports. His out of print book on planned breeding is a classic.
> Royalair's line goes back to their male line (Falco)from the Kuhn brothers- who were/are respected breeders from years ago. The Tumbledown line is also a well know line from the past. All of these breeders and kennels were active during the Golden Age of German shepherds in this country. Royalair, thru research and a carefully thought out breeding plan has kept these types of dog around for future generations to enjoy.
> I would think, with the current condition of the breed, having this underutilized bloodlines around will,one day bring the German shepherd breed back to its foundation - a balanced working dog; not some show pony or sport dog.


DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about a specific breeder below (no breeder bashing)....just a "type" of breeder and a "type" of lines.

I guess I just don't understand....you believe "old fashioned, big bone, yadda yadda" is breeding towards the old working dogs? I can actually say I have seen dogs from these lines, with owners that got them before they knew what SchH was, that were *told*, *promised*, *guaranteed* (all verbal promises with no proof or experience to back it up) that their dog's were "true" shepherds that could handle anything....and they tried to get their dogs to do it....and they couldn't...they couldn't handle the pressure of a decoy's presence, let alone true pressure from a stick or fight....and the owners were embarrassed that they had paid (sometimes upwards of 2000 bucks) for these dogs. It bothers me when breeders claim they are breeding working dogs, or dogs that can work....when they have absolutely no proof of it....to the contrary, there is proof the dogs cannot handle the pressure....and the buyer is the one that pays in the long run...and usually the dog, via temperament and health issues. 

SchH isn't just a sport, as you know I am sure, it was created to test the character and breedability of the GSD.....I am always shocked when breeders say things like, "don't want a dog to bite everything, some flashy sport dog...IPO doesn't mean anything....yadda yadda." To downplay and belittle IPO. It's a total cop out usually, and a way to dismiss any proving of the dog and it's abilities. 

If the dog can't even perform in the entry level *practice* and *training* of the "sport" let alone compete on even a club level....I just believe that dog and other's in it's line like it...should never be bred. I am failing to see how these lines are going to go back to the foundation when they cannot and are not, proving their dogs can do anything but love kids and handle social situations....Are they going to one day hit the jack pot and have a dog that can cut it on the most basic of levels that the breed was meant to handle, maybe?? But so far, from the 6 or 7 dog's I have seen from these lines, they couldn't even make it through the very foundation level of SchH(I am NOT talking about a trial...I am talking about, "hey Fido, play on this strange field with me, with these strange people watching, and just hold the grip on the tug")....they couldn't even *play* in their prey drive (some didn't even have a prey drive)...most turtled up and went into complete avoidance...I think continuing to breed that is wrong...I am NOT saying the dogs are bad dogs...I am talking about the people continuing to breed these dogs and making the *claim* that they are working dogs, or have the abilities of the "German Shepherds of old", is crazy imo. Desperately hanging onto a working dog from 15+ generations as proof of working ability is ridiculous (Blitz gave a good example of how quickly and easily it is to wash out working ability in ONE generation.....)

If your dog's or dogs of these lines are so capable of handling pressure, containing the correct drives, stable, etc...why aren't police departments, military k9 handlers, and SchH handlers *flocking* to get the next puppy out of these old fashioned breeders??? Is it just some unknown, untapped, goldmine that NO police department or military trainer has heard of? And don't say some bull crud like, "well I don't want a biting machine!" Police K9's are SUPPOSED to be, *HAVE* to be, extremely social...everyone I've met (and I have met a LOT) can track a bad guy and then go work an ice cream social at the local elementary school....trying to belittle or say a police k9 is just a crazy biting machine not meant for families is silly. Why aren't the breeders at the very least testing a dog every now and then by titling it, then they can say to all us naysayers...seeeeeee.....?? 

SO many GSD, dobie, rottie, owners, think their dog would "rip someone's face off for touching me or my kids"....I have seen this tested (I'll find the video)...9 times out of ten, if the "bad guy" shows ANY pressure back to the dog (usually a loud "NO" will do it) the dog runs kiyaying outta there. The only reason this angers me is because people *buy* these dogs under the impression they will be protective and stable....when they won't/aren't...at all....the owner is left with a mess to clean up....Again, it's not the dog owner I'm angry with....but *breeders* that are dooping these buyers into thinking they are buying the "old fashioned, REAL GSD." Balogne.....


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## DaniFani

I find it interesting that those still defending this type of breeding are paying no attention to the fact that, not one, not two, but THREE individuals that started and discussed their dogs on this thread back in *2009* now have temperamental and health problems (hips, elbows, allergies, etc) that they have to deal with with their beloved animals...that's tragic to me...and it's not the buyers fault...I've bought the line like this before, and I paid the price too. It's sad. But it will be dismissed because, "it's only three....theres probably lots of others that are fine." Yadda yadda....so sad. And I know this topic has been hashed out again and again, but the interesting piece to this thread "coming back to life" is that we can see how some of these pets and owners are fairing 4 *years* later.....a lot aren't doing so well, and once again, those supporting the breed or saying their dog is great is talking about a dog not yet mature....it's eye opening, and a good thread to point out when people are considering these "lines."


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## David Winners

DaniFani said:


> I find it interesting that those still defending this type of breeding are paying no attention to the fact that, not one, not two, but THREE individuals that started and discussed their dogs on this thread back in *2009* now have temperamental and health problems (hips, elbows, allergies, etc) that they have to deal with with their beloved animals...that's tragic to me...and it's not the buyers fault...I've bought the line like this before, and I paid the price too. It's sad. But it will be dismissed because, "it's only three....theres probably lots of others that are fine." Yadda yadda....so sad. And I know this topic has been hashed out again and again, but the interesting piece to this thread "coming back to life" is that we can see how some of these pets and owners are fairing 4 *years* later.....a lot aren't doing so well, and once again, those supporting the breed or saying their dog is great is talking about a dog not yet mature....it's eye opening, and a good thread to point out when people are considering these "lines."


Great post

David Winners


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## JakodaCD OA

and to add to what Dani just posted, how many of those buyers do hip/elbow screening?? 

For me, and again it's me, the dogs that go back to long worth etc, are just to far back in the pedigree to really make much of a difference in the dogs 'now'.

Like I said before, to each his own, we all love our dogs. They just aren't my cup of tea


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## carmspack

this "royalair dogs pedigree that shows some DDR lines" so minor , not even worth looking at as far as impact .

as to the "Kuhn brothers" - Josef was a good friend of mine - totally different breeding agenda from his brother Adam -- . I can just hear Josef in my minds ear , forthright , unsparing , making comments --- .
What Kuhnhof dogs are there in the pedigree?
just curious


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## Jd414

carmspack said:


> this "royalair dogs pedigree that shows some DDR lines" so minor , not even worth looking at as far as impact .
> 
> as to the "Kuhn brothers" - Josef was a good friend of mine - totally different breeding agenda from his brother Adam -- . I can just hear Josef in my minds ear , forthright , unsparing , making comments --- .
> What Kuhnhof dogs are there in the pedigree?
> just curious


Didn't say it impacted anything. Just showing that they are there. 

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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about a specific breeder below (no breeder bashing)....just a "type" of breeder and a "type" of lines.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand....you believe "old fashioned, big bone, yadda yadda" is breeding towards the old working dogs? I can actually say I have seen dogs from these lines, with owners that got them before they knew what SchH was, that were *told*, *promised*, *guaranteed* (all verbal promises with no proof or experience to back it up) that their dog's were "true" shepherds that could handle anything....and they tried to get their dogs to do it....and they couldn't...they couldn't handle the pressure of a decoy's presence, let alone true pressure from a stick or fight....and the owners were embarrassed that they had paid (sometimes upwards of 2000 bucks) for these dogs. It bothers me when breeders claim they are breeding working dogs, or dogs that can work....when they have absolutely no proof of it....to the contrary, there is proof the dogs cannot handle the pressure....and the buyer is the one that pays in the long run...and usually the dog, via temperament and health issues.
> 
> SchH isn't just a sport, as you know I am sure, it was created to test the character and breedability of the GSD.....I am always shocked when breeders say things like, "don't want a dog to bite everything, some flashy sport dog...IPO doesn't mean anything....yadda yadda." To downplay and belittle IPO. It's a total cop out usually, and a way to dismiss any proving of the dog and it's abilities.
> 
> If the dog can't even perform in the entry level *practice* and *training* of the "sport" let alone compete on even a club level....I just believe that dog and other's in it's line like it...should never be bred. I am failing to see how these lines are going to go back to the foundation when they cannot and are not, proving their dogs can do anything but love kids and handle social situations....Are they going to one day hit the jack pot and have a dog that can cut it on the most basic of levels that the breed was meant to handle, maybe?? But so far, from the 6 or 7 dog's I have seen from these lines, they couldn't even make it through the very foundation level of SchH(I am NOT talking about a trial...I am talking about, "hey Fido, play on this strange field with me, with these strange people watching, and just hold the grip on the tug")....they couldn't even *play* in their prey drive (some didn't even have a prey drive)...most turtled up and went into complete avoidance...I think continuing to breed that is wrong...I am NOT saying the dogs are bad dogs...I am talking about the people continuing to breed these dogs and making the *claim* that they are working dogs, or have the abilities of the "German Shepherds of old", is crazy imo. Desperately hanging onto a working dog from 15+ generations as proof of working ability is ridiculous (Blitz gave a good example of how quickly and easily it is to wash out working ability in ONE generation.....)
> 
> If your dog's or dogs of these lines are so capable of handling pressure, containing the correct drives, stable, etc...why aren't police departments, military k9 handlers, and SchH handlers *flocking* to get the next puppy out of these old fashioned breeders??? Is it just some unknown, untapped, goldmine that NO police department or military trainer has heard of? And don't say some bull crud like, "well I don't want a biting machine!" Police K9's are SUPPOSED to be, *HAVE* to be, extremely social...everyone I've met (and I have met a LOT) can track a bad guy and then go work an ice cream social at the local elementary school....trying to belittle or say a police k9 is just a crazy biting machine not meant for families is silly. Why aren't the breeders at the very least testing a dog every now and then by titling it, then they can say to all us naysayers...seeeeeee.....??
> 
> SO many GSD, dobie, rottie, owners, think their dog would "rip someone's face off for touching me or my kids"....I have seen this tested (I'll find the video)...9 times out of ten, if the "bad guy" shows ANY pressure back to the dog (usually a loud "NO" will do it) the dog runs kiyaying outta there. The only reason this angers me is because people *buy* these dogs under the impression they will be protective and stable....when they won't/aren't...at all....the owner is left with a mess to clean up....Again, it's not the dog owner I'm angry with....but *breeders* that are dooping these buyers into thinking they are buying the "old fashioned, REAL GSD." Balogne.....


Do you have proof these dogs are unable to compete? Just curious

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## carmspack

dj414 , people will pay unwarranted attention to the additional line --


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## alexg

Jd414 said:


> Do you have proof these dogs are unable to compete? Just curious
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Basically you got this backwards. The breeders/handlers bring their dogs to the competition to prove the dogs can compete. They earn titles as a proof.


----------



## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> Do you have proof these dogs are unable to compete? Just curious
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not sure what you mean?? There are several on this thread alone, and I am sure if you ask they will PM you the information and their experience. As for the additional ones I saw, they are people that came to my club *practice* hoping to get into the sport...and their dog couldn't, *practice*...some came back a couple more times, no changes really.....the dog turtled up, avoided, had zero play/prey drive...sometimes zero food drive...and one of the people couldn't believe it, "Well, Fido will do anything for his ball/food at home"...see, that's the key...the dogs are in a *completely* new and sometimes "stressful" environment(new field, lots of smells of other dogs, several people watching)...and it's really easy to see that stress, it's the perfect "test" to see what the dog brings to the table. Of course some could have had drive suppression through their environment, but a dog can't lie about what's at it's core when it comes to it's drives and abilities, not like it's breeder can, anyway....Well bred dogs capable of working, have that drive anywhere anytime....not only under certain, comfortable/known situations. The drive *level* can be effected sometimes, but completely disappear and the dog actually goes into avoidance?? Please. 

Are you asking for their phone number or something?? You can *not* believe me all you want, imo I fail to see how it's helpful to you or others to want proof that they *can't* do it....rather than proof they can...and that proof is a title or progeny *successfully* working the streets in more than one venue (sorry, therapy dogs don't count as a true test of working ability of a GSD in my mind...if any lab/doodle/mix can do it, I should sure hope a GSD can!!)....

That's like someone saying the jalopy they are trying to sell you is just as fast as a ferrari....and NEVER proving it...just bragging and telling everyone, "oh yeah, this car would beat a ferrari any day of the week." Would you just take that at face value? Because the person selling you the car said it would beat a ferrari?? Because, you haven't seen the car *NOT* beat a ferrari, so it must be true that it can, right?? Anyone can see how backwards this is in this example, yet they don't think that way when promised the moon and stars from a breeder....are they backing up what they are claiming?? If not, time to move on for me.


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## Nigel

I do not have a royalair dog and know nothing about them, but with the exception of my beagle, all my dogs have been oversized & none are or were couch potatoes. Tuke likes the couch and I've jokingly called her a couch potato, but she can go all day and does so fairly often. When we cut firewood she'll run all day covering ground that resembles an agility course on steroids, take a 45 minute rest on the trip home and upon arrival, she's found her ball and ready for a game of fetch. She has a great temperament and at 94 lbs, she is currently our largest GSD (most likely Ranger @92bls & 15 months will be larger). Will all this wear and tear catch up to my dogs as they age? Maybe, maybe not, IDK. I see it mentioned a few times that oversized = lumbering slug or whatever and I can only say for my own dogs that this is crap.


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## Liesje

Jd414, you can just look at breed or organization results. If you don't see dogs with the kennel name in the results for the past 2-3 years (or ever), I think you can fairly assume those dogs aren't involved in those venues, at least not demonstrating it competitively. For example I do U-FLI. I look at the database online. All dogs are on there whether they have just registered and not competed or have competed for 10 years and are now deceased. If a dog is active with the org, he will be in the database. If there are no dogs with a kennel's name, then it's fair to say that kennel isn't producing dogs that are competing. I guess whether they "can" or "can't" is more subjective, I look at whether they do or don't. You can do the same with SchH results, look at the published results and see what kennels or lines of dogs are producing and how they are doing, if that is a venue of competition that interests you.


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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> Not sure what you mean?? There are several on this thread alone, and I am sure if you ask they will PM you the information and their experience. As for the additional ones I saw, they are people that came to my club *practice* hoping to get into the sport...and their dog couldn't, *practice*...some came back a couple more times, no changes really.....the dog turtled up, avoided, had zero play/prey drive...sometimes zero food drive...and one of the people couldn't believe it, "Well, Fido will do anything for his ball/food at home"...see, that's the key...the dogs are in a *completely* new and sometimes "stressful" environment(new field, lots of smells of other dogs, several people watching)...and it's really easy to see that stress, it's the perfect "test" to see what the dog brings to the table. Of course some could have had drive suppression through their environment, but a dog can't lie about what's at it's core when it comes to it's drives and abilities, not like it's breeder can, anyway....Well bred dogs capable of working, have that drive anywhere anytime....not only under certain, comfortable/known situations. The drive *level* can be effected sometimes, but completely disappear and the dog actually goes into avoidance?? Please.
> 
> Are you asking for their phone number or something?? You can *not* believe me all you want, imo I fail to see how it's helpful to you or others to want proof that they *can't* do it....rather than proof they can...and that proof is a title or progeny *successfully* working the streets in more than one venue (sorry, therapy dogs don't count as a true test of working ability of a GSD in my mind...if any lab/doodle/mix can do it, I should sure hope a GSD can!!)....
> 
> That's like someone saying the jalopy they are trying to sell you is just as fast as a ferrari....and NEVER proving it...just bragging and telling everyone, "oh yeah, this car would beat a ferrari any day of the week." Would you just take that at face value? Because the person selling you the car said it would beat a ferrari?? Because, you haven't seen the car *NOT* beat a ferrari, so it must be true that it can, right?? Anyone can see how backwards this is in this example, yet they don't think that way when promised the moon and stars from a breeder....are they backing up what they are claiming?? If not, time to move on for me.


These were Royalair dogs?

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## DaniFani

Nigel said:


> I do not have a royalair dog and know nothing about them, but with the exception of my beagle, all my dogs have been oversized & none are or were couch potatoes. Tuke likes the couch and I've jokingly called her a couch potato, but she can go all day and does so fairly often. When we cut firewood she'll run all day covering ground that resembles an agility course on steroids, take a 45 minute rest on the trip home and upon arrival, she's found her ball and ready for a game of fetch. She has a great temperament and at 94 lbs, she is currently our largest GSD (most likely Ranger @92bls & 15 months will be larger). Will all this wear and tear catch up to my dogs as they age? Maybe, maybe not, IDK. I see it mentioned a few times that oversized = lumbering slug or whatever and I can only say for my own dogs that this is crap.


I am NOT trying to belittle or attack you, just commenting on this. The true test, and what we are seeing crop up in this thread 4 years later, is can/will the dog maintain it's energy capabilities at 4+ years?? You have a 15 month old puppy, I would hope it's still capable of tearing around the place lol. I sincerely hope that she doesn't take the route of those that have updated us on this thread (one having to have both hips reconstructed). I am a runner (2.5 miles every other day), I want a dog that can do that with me....I love running with a dog, of all the dogs I've conditioned to run with me over the years, the bigger ones (one large lab and a large shepherd, both a little over 100 pounds) couldn't handle it once they really set into maturity....like I said, I sincerely hope yours continues this trajectory, and not that of those that have updated now that their dogs are 4/5 and have had to have major surgery on hips/elbows....I just want some going back and reading this thread to take into account the *age* of the dogs being used as good examples of over-sized dogs being at the standard for higher endurance.....


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## Doc

There is more to a German shepherd than breeding for some sort of title. There were German shepherds long before there were titles. And you ask anyone that has been associated with this breed for the past 40 years and they will tell you that the current sport of Sch. has nothing to do with how "good" your dog is. Today it is a sport, the dog earn points if it does this and that. And if the dog is really trained well, it will perform. Doesn't mean beans if it is a solid dog. You can train monkeys to ride bicycles, does that make the breed of money any better?


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## Merciel

Nigel said:


> I see it mentioned a few times that oversized = lumbering slug or whatever and I can only say for my own dogs that this is crap.


Calling them "couch potatoes" or "slugs" or whatever is certainly hyperbolic (and unnecessarily insulting), but it is true that being in sports has given me a _really_ strong preference for smaller and faster dogs, to the point where I don't even know that my next performance dog will be a GSD at all. If it is, it'll be the smallest WL I can find that meets my other criteria... and even then, in the back of my mind, I'll always be worrying about its career longevity.

The difference is just so pronounced between what you can get with a big dog and what you can get with a smaller one. I don't even do the sports that really emphasize speed or agility, and it _still _makes a difference.


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> These were Royalair dogs?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Two were, yes....one that went into complete avoidance, and the other that had zero prey drive....the one I said the owner said, "he'll do anything for the treat at home."....he was from a breeding partner of Royalair's here in Northern Cali...if you look into their lines there are several breeders using these lines...Blackmagic, Salhaus, Royalair....are the three that come to mind....I actually know a bit about these breeders because I wanted a dog from them for a long time. So I've talked to two of them in depth on the phone...until I gained knowledge about breed standard, abilities, and IPO, and realized there was no proof that their dogs could cash the checks the breeder's mouths were writing.


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## Jd414

Doc said:


> There is more to a German shepherd than breeding for some sort of title. There were German shepherds long before there were titles. And you ask anyone that has been associated with this breed for the past 40 years and they will tell you that the current sport of Sch. has nothing to do with how "good" your dog is. Today it is a sport, the dog earn points if it does this and that. And if the dog is really trained well, it will perform. Doesn't mean beans if it is a solid dog. You can train monkeys to ride bicycles, does that make the breed of money any better?


Great example.... if there were not titles 40-50 years ago then what is everyone talking about lol. I'm sure the first gsds weren't bred to perform in some show ring. Good point Doc

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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> There is more to a German shepherd than breeding for some sort of title. There were German shepherds long before there were titles. And you ask anyone that has been associated with this breed for the past 40 years and they will tell you that the current sport of Sch. has nothing to do with how "good" your dog is. Today it is a sport, the dog earn points if it does this and that. And if the dog is really trained well, it will perform. Doesn't mean beans if it is a solid dog. You can train monkeys to ride bicycles, does that make the breed of money any better?


But I am talking about the tests prior to ANY kind of legitimate training....are you saying it doesn't matter that the dogs showed avoidance, nerve, and stress from being asked to play with a tug, with their owner, on a field..that some couldn't handle the decoy coming over with a tug and trying to get them to chase/bite it??? Because I am NOT talking about even taking the dog to the end trial, I am talking about a dog being incapable of one or two *practices*.....showing avoidance, stress, and sometimes fear in an environment that any stable GSD should handle no problem...imo.


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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> Two were, yes....one that went into complete avoidance, and the other that had zero prey drive....the one I said the owner said, "he'll do anything for the treat at home."....he was from a breeding partner of Royalair's here in Northern Cali...if you look into their lines there are several breeders using these lines...Blackmagic, Salhaus, Royalair....are the three that come to mind....I actually know a bit about these breeders because I wanted a dog from them for a long time. So I've talked to two of them in depth on the phone...until I gained knowledge about breed standard, abilities, and IPO, and realized there was no proof that their dogs could cash the checks the breeder's mouths were writing.


Has there ever been a "standard" size gsd with zero prey drive or with avoidance? Or one that just didn't do well in sch or any other sport????

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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> Great example.... if there were not titles 40-50 years ago then what is everyone talking about lol. I'm sure the first gsds weren't bred to perform in some show ring. Good point Doc
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha, the "sport" was created FOR testing those dogs...so they *could* absolutely do it...back then dog's that showed what I saw on the field were culled....it doesn't take IPO to test for what I am talking about, the same things would have been seen back then...and the dogs would have been culled, or at the very least removed from the working gene pool.


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## trcy

Jd414 said:


> Great example.... if there were not titles 40-50 years ago then what is everyone talking about lol. I'm sure the first gsds weren't bred to perform in some show ring. Good point Doc
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm not sure what you are referring to. It only took me 5 seconds to get the year schutzhund started. There may not have been titles at that time, but only the dogs who passed were bred. So, its been around for about 100 years. 

The German Shepherd was developed from working herding dogs around 1900 as an all-around working dog. Within a few years it was clear that the dogs were losing their working ability. Schutzhund was developed at this time as a test of working ability for German Shepherds. Only German Shepherds that had passed a Schutzhund test or a herding test were allowed to breed and thus have their progeny registered as German Shepherd Dogs. This is true in Germany to this day. It is only by testing the working ability of every generation that the strong working characteristics of the GSD have been maintained.


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## Doc

Carman, your comment about great dogs in the past was interesting. I think you refer to past greats on your web-site
"The Carmspack family contains some of the true greats of the breed. Marko Celleland, Racker Itztal, Uwe and Uran Kirschental, Urban Hopfenstrasse, Dix Maineiche, Held, Golf and Grand Ritterberg, Rex and Ulf Haus Iris, Roy Muritz,
Don Rolandsteich. The list is long."
What's the difference? Not trying to be horses rear-end but I do not see the point in your comment if you list the great dogs as being behind your lines.
What's good for the goose is also good for the gander isn't it?


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## LaRen616

Merciel said:


> Calling them "couch potatoes" or "slugs" or whatever is certainly hyperbolic (and unnecessarily insulting)


My GSD is not from Royalair, but he is over the standard at 28.5 inches at the shoulder and 90 pounds and he gets worn out *quickly*. When we get together with my friend's Dobermans, he runs and plays with them for about 10-15 minutes and then he is *POOPED*. He absolutely cannot keep up with them and they can run, and run, and run. I wanted to do agility and dock diving with him but he is way too large and has way too low of energy to do either sport, this is the reason why I went with a smaller more agile breed. 

I am also VERY concerned with his hips because he is so large, I keep him lean to avoid having extra weight on his hips although he could easily be 95-100 pounds and not be fat.

He pretty much is a couch potato.


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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> Haha, the "sport" was created FOR testing those dogs...so they *could* absolutely do it...back then dog's that showed what I saw on the field were culled....it doesn't take IPO to test for what I am talking about, the same things would have been seen back then...and the dogs would have been culled, or at the very least removed from the working gene pool.


At the end of the day you do what u want with your dog and if you are a breeder then breed the way you want. But don't judge someone or something you don't like just because it doesn't fall under some standard. 

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## Merciel

Liesje said:


> Jd414, you can just look at breed or organization results. If you don't see dogs with the kennel name in the results for the past 2-3 years (or ever), I think you can fairly assume those dogs aren't involved in those venues, at least not demonstrating it competitively.


I ran the kennel name through Dog Show Scores just to see what came up. There are a handful of Royalair dogs who are or have been active in AKC performance venues (DSS tracks AKC Rally, Obedience, and Agility) over the past 10 years:

Dog Show Scores Database | Dog Search Results

If you click on the names you can get breakdowns on scores for Rally and Obedience, yards per second in Agility, and placements in all three.

I think the results wouldn't be surprising to anyone on any side in this discussion. There are a small number of dogs from this kennel who have been active in AKC performance venues, and they aren't setting the world on fire score-wise. But they finish some titles.


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## Doc

Today's Schutzhund is nothing like the test employed by Stephanitz. History shows that Stephanitz constantly returned to the great herding dogs to bring the breed back to where he wanted it. The great herding dogs were from the Swabian bloodlines which were slow to anger, slow to bite, slow to run off chasing things. Stephanitz was keenly aware that when you lost the Swabian bloodline in the German shepherd, "his"breed strayed from where he wanted it. Study the breedings in the early 1900s. Find the article Stephnitz wrote about service dogs that states that anymore than 25 percent Thuringian blood in a dog leads to poor service dogs. It's all there but has been long forgotten by breeders of sports dogs. Sad but true.



trcy said:


> I'm not sure what you are referring to. It only took me 5 seconds to get the year schutzhund started. There may not have been titles at that time, but only the dogs who passed were bred. So, its been around for about 100 years.
> 
> The German Shepherd was developed from working herding dogs around 1900 as an all-around working dog. Within a few years it was clear that the dogs were losing their working ability. Schutzhund was developed at this time as a test of working ability for German Shepherds. Only German Shepherds that had passed a Schutzhund test or a herding test were allowed to breed and thus have their progeny registered as German Shepherd Dogs. This is true in Germany to this day. It is only by testing the working ability of every generation that the strong working characteristics of the GSD have been maintained.


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> Has there ever been a "standard" size gsd with zero prey drive or with avoidance? Or one that just didn't do well in sch or any other sport????
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My goodness, you really are only going to see the perspectives of those you want to see....several people have said on this thread, back to page 1 from Chris Wild...it's about the *whole* dog. I don't believe *any* breeder breeding for one or two traits, is going to get a dog that fits the bill....way back on the first pages these lines coming from ONE sire with excellent hips was the main reason for breeding him....guess what?? Now we are seeing dogs from that sire's progeny throwing severely dysplastic and dysplastic dogs. If you or others don't like the sport, fine...then do SOMETHING to prove these dogs are capable of being utility dogs, like they were meant to be....please answer my question...if these dogs are the "perfect" GSD, the way the GSD was "meant" to be...why are no police departments or military trainers banging down the doors to get these dogs?? Most police departments used to (a lot still do) purchase SchH 3 dogs....to me getting that SchH title says more about the dogs abilities than someone just *saying* they can....

Doc, you said these lines are going to help get back to the "original" shepherd...should the original shepherd be able to handle preforming as a police dog? What requirements are being made of these dogs that show what the dog was originally for?? Socialability is great, but it's only part of the puzzle...social-ability, the ability to perform at IPO *practice*, let alone trialing, shows that the dog can perform....having progeny working in the military or as police k9's is another way to prove the progeny....just do SOMETHING....but a CGC that any breed of dog should be able to get only proves a very very small amount of the dog...a *breedable* dog should be capable of getting much much more...not that CGC's aren't a wonderful thing, but we are talking about *breeding* dogs....You keep downplaying IPO, fine...then *what*, besides a lot of lip flapping and big promises, is being done to *prove* these dogs??? Otherwise, I have an awesome Pontiac Grand Am with 200,000+ miles on it that I'd love to sell you for the price of a ferrari because I *swear* to you, I'm pretty sure it could perform like a ferrari....their both cars, right??


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> At the end of the day you do what u want with your dog and if you are a breeder then breed the way you want. But don't judge someone or something you don't like just because it doesn't fall under some standard.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I absolutely can and will judge breeders on the ethics and morals they are breeding on...I've seen too many disappointed buyers to not voice my opinion and experience.


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## Jd414

Merciel said:


> I ran the kennel name through Dog Show Scores just to see what came up. There are a handful of Royalair dogs who are or have been active in AKC performance venues (DSS tracks AKC Rally, Obedience, and Agility) over the past 10 years:
> 
> Dog Show Scores Database | Dog Search Results
> 
> If you click on the names you can get breakdowns on scores for Rally and Obedience, yards per second in Agility, and placements in all three.
> 
> I think the results wouldn't be surprising to anyone on any side in this discussion. There are a small number of dogs from this kennel who have been active in AKC performance venues, and they aren't setting the world on fire score-wise. But they finish some titles.


Thank you. 

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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> Today's Schutzhund is nothing like the test employed by Stephanitz. History shows that Stephanitz constantly returned to the great herding dogs to bring the breed back to where he wanted it. The great herding dogs were from the Swabian bloodlines which were slow to anger, slow to bite, slow to run off chasing things. Stephanitz was keenly aware that when you lost the Swabian bloodline in the German shepherd, "his"breed strayed from where he wanted it. Study the breedings in the early 1900s. Find the article Stephnitz wrote about service dogs that states that anymore than 25 percent Thuringian blood in a dog leads to poor service dogs. It's all there but has been long forgotten by breeders of sports dogs. Sad but true.


Okay, so if you belittle SchH so much, these breeders are competing at high levels in herding to show what great herders they are, right??


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She's saying the larger dogs weren't competing at high levels....that they were just like any other breed performing....nothing special...some AKC titles, but nothing proving the dog is so good it should be *bred*....


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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> I absolutely can and will judge breeders on the ethics and morals they are breeding on...I've seen too many disappointed buyers to not voice my opinion and experience.


Good luck

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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> She's saying the larger dogs weren't competing at high levels....that they were just like any other breed performing....nothing special...some AKC titles, but nothing proving the dog is so good it should be *bred*....


I know what she was saying. They still competing tho they're still getting titles tho...

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## DaniFani

And even a dog getting all the SchH titles in the world doesn't make me immediately want to buy a puppy! I want to see the dog work. Merciel has a dog she has been working very hard with and has achieved very high levels in AKC with, but I can tell you with confidence she would never breed that dog...because she is honest with herself and knows what's at the dogs core. SO I am telling you, titles are not even the end all be all for me....but if they aren't even doing *that*, then I wouldn't even give them a second thought.


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> Good luck
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks, so far I've saved three people from supporting these types of breeders. I consider that worth it.


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## Nigel

Tuke & Zoey are bybs and will be 4 next July. I didn't set out to find oversized dogs, they just turned out that way, I was pretty ignorant about my search, I knew nothing about the breed standard. Its not much to go on in hopes for good genetic health, but their dam and sire are both doing well. The dam only had one litter @ just under 6 and at 9 now she looks and appears very healthy, so here's to hoping anyways! None of mine are over 100 lbs and I doubt Ranger will be when he fully matures. While I do understand and agree with some of the issues being pointed out here, I don't agree with some of the blanket statements that have been made.


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## Doc

DaniFani said:


> Okay, so if you belittle SchH so much, these breeders are competing at high levels in herding to show what great herders they are, right??


Not belittling, just stating a fact. In the same light, herding sheep in the 1900s was different than running 10 or 15 sheep in a field. However, the genetics are the same.
To ignore the fact that Stephanitz fell in love with a herding dog while sitting on a hill has long been forgotten and replaced with dogs that are trained to show and bite.


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> I know what she was saying. They still competing tho they're still getting titles tho...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


sigh....all right..you win....any dog with a CGC should be bred....don't worry, American shelters will handle the upchuck from this line of thinking....oh wait, they already do.


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> Not belittling, just stating a fact. In the same light, herding sheep in the 1900s was different than running 10 or 15 sheep in a field. However, the genetics are the same.
> To ignore the fact that Stephanitz fell in love with a herding dog while sitting on a hill has long been forgotten and replaced with dogs that are trained to show and bite.


Haha....of course it's changed and no longer worthy of being done in your eyes, I should have expected this response...you still haven't told me exactly what is being done to prove these dogs....or is it just having them sit on a hill? Is that the test?? "Can the dog sit on a hill" lol, alright I see I'm not going to get any answers as to WHAT these dogs can do...only "facts" that everything other working line breeders are doing is pretty pointless to keep the breed capable of working...because it's no longer right in your eyes....have you worked/titled dogs in herding?? Or is it not worth it because it's different than it was??


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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> Thanks, so far I've saved three people from supporting these types of breeders. I consider that worth it.




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## DaniFani

Here's a video of a breeder's dog's being tested....this breeder didn't work his dogs in protection or SchH, but SWORE up and down, sometimes vehemently and quite cocky that his dogs would take out anyone trying to hurt him or his own....They are Airedales, but they are supposed to have that basic genetic ability to protect, just like the GSD...but if left unchecked for generations...well you can just watch and see what happens....I would LOVE for breeders who claim their dogs will genetically defend and protect, have their breeding stock tested in this simplest of ways....oh well. ;-)


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## Jd414

I'm not an expert but reading this does kinda show that some of the original lines were large right? They had straight backs not sloped or roached.

http://www.germanwatchdogs.com/blog/developing-the-german-shepherd-breed/

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## trcy

Jd414 said:


> I'm not an expert but reading this does kinda show that some of the original lines were large right? They had straight backs not sloped or roached.
> 
> Developing the German Shepherd Breed
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Working dogs are still straight backed. They still are tested and titled. My dog has a slop, because he is a show line from german bloodlines. His parents both were tested and titled. He is not sloped to the degree of the american show lines.


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## Merciel

DaniFani said:


> Merciel has a dog she has been working very hard with and has achieved very high levels in AKC with, but I can tell you with confidence she would never breed that dog


Minor nitpicky point, but we don't actually do AKC (yet). I compete in Rally and obedience, but in different registries. Next year, though, that statement will (hopefully) be true. And yes, I'd never breed Pongu. He sucks. 

FWIW, what I can glean from Royalair listings in DSS is, like I said, pretty much what I think everyone in this thread would expect.

These aren't working dogs, and the target market is pet homes, not performance homes. A very small percentage of their dogs goes on to participate in AKC venues, where they do reasonably well but not super "WOW" outstanding (Rally scores mostly in the 80s and 90s [and many of those from earlier years when Rally grading was generally softer], obedience scores ranging from the 170s to low 190s, few to no placements outside the A classes). They finish titles, but not a lot of top-level ones.

Most of these dogs look like they're competing for a couple of years and then dropping off the scene. The longest career I could find was about four years. That doesn't necessarily mean the dog broke down, though; it's often the case that people just lose interest (especially at the lower levels, the dropout rate can be pretty high) or don't have the money to keep going.

Really, the only conclusions I can safely infer from the DSS listing are that (1) highly competitive handlers aren't looking at this kennel; and (2) for a kennel targeted at the pet market, you could certainly do a lot worse. At least some of these dogs are stable, physically able, and trainable enough to go through the Novice/Open levels with not-bad scores. Which, again, is something I think everyone in this thread would expect.


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## Doc

For what it is worth, all "working" German shepherds do not compete in sporting events. There are other venues that constitute work besides biting for points and showing.
I'm through. Peace


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## boomer11

the majority of people looking for a german shepherd just want a pet. the minority are enthusiasts who want a performance dog (this forum). most people dont care about prey drive and focus and civil defense; they want a dog that looks like the german shepherds they've seen in the movies growing up and one that is nice. they dont care if the breeders work their dogs in some sort of venue. most people just want a pet and ethical or not, there are breeders who provide them these dogs. most of the general public could care less if there dog is going to chase a rag or not. they only want a companion to greet them when they get home. in a competition these "pet" dogs would get embarrassed by a true working shepherd. but the general public isnt even going to enter any kind of competition nor do they care. the only thing that i find sad is that breeders know that creating these oversized dogs means they are at a higher risk for health issues but breed anyways just to make money. i looked at the pedigree that was posted of the royalair dog and some of those males look like they're pregnant. i actually felt bad for those dogs. 

i also find it telling that no one has come on here saying they own an 8 yr old royalair dog and its perfectly healthy! yet there are people who have come on here saying their royalair dogs have had health issues. i feel the people that are most adamant in this thread are ones that have gone down the uneducated road and have had bad experiences with these oversized dogs and just dont want other people to have to experience the same thing.


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> For what it is worth, all "working" German shepherds do not compete in sporting events. There are other venues that constitute work besides biting for points and showing.
> I'm through. Peace


Still waiting for what these venues are that you are talking about...shocking that you never got beyond nit picking everything that's WRONG with what's currently used as breed tests, and never truly knowing what you or others would use to test these lines outside of "he loves kids and can handle social gatherings",so can a lab/doodle/mutt..oh and there's a great dog 37 generations back.......what makes him/her a GSD????? What has proven that he/she can do everything the breed is supposed to be able to handle....You keep going back to the biting...My example had NOTHING to do with biting...the dogs couldn't handle PLAY at PRACTICE....Sorry, I'm not going to just take your word that you think the dogs can do what they are supposed to....you should have read what the man in the video was claiming about his dogs....that they'd have to be "choked off the bad guy", that the bad guy wouldn't be able to touch the owner.....and look what happened, can NOT claim something unless you are working it and making sure you are maintaining through the generations...if you aren't testing, fine....just don't make claims that you are improving the breed or breeding the GSD back to what it was supposed to do....you haven't proven any of that...and you still won't say anything except how all the tests used nowadays aren't right....I think that is the epitome of a "cop-out."


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## DaniFani

boomer11 said:


> the majority of people looking for a german shepherd just want a pet. the minority are enthusiasts who want a performance dog (this forum). most people dont care about prey drive and focus and civil defense; they want a dog that looks like the german shepherds they've seen in the movies growing up and one that is nice. they dont care if the breeders work their dogs in some sort of venue. most people just want a pet and ethical or not, there are breeders who provide them these dogs. most of the general public could care less if there dog is going to chase a rag or not. they only want a companion to greet them when they get home. in a competition these "pet" dogs would get embarrassed by a true working shepherd. but the general public isnt even going to enter any kind of competition nor do they care. the only thing that i find sad is that breeders know that creating these oversized dogs means they are at a higher risk for health issues but breed anyways just to make money. i looked at the pedigree that was posted of the royalair dog and some of those males look like they're pregnant. i actually felt bad for those dogs.
> 
> i also find it telling that no one has come on here saying they own an 8 yr old royalair dog and its perfectly healthy! yet there are people who have come on here saying their royalair dogs have had health issues. i feel the people that are most adamant in this thread are ones that have gone down the uneducated road and have had bad experiences with these oversized dogs and just dont want other people to have to experience the same thing.


I agree that probably 90% of GSD's are in pet-only homes, but how many of those that purchased from a breeder were fed some line about how the dog will be a very protective, healthy, stable, dog?? And of those, how many actually are that?? And of those, how many owners wanted to do something with their dog, and were embarrassed when they went to the field/ring and their dog turtled up or ran for the car? If a breeder of a GSD wants to dumb down everything about it's temperament that makes it a GSD, fine....but don't make outrageous claims of workability, utility, strength, protection, health, great nerve, and breeding "what the GSD was always supposed to be" if it's never been tested or proven....


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## Nigel

Just looked at the website and saw DM testing, is this a legit test? I thought I had seen some posts indicating that current testing being done was designed for corgis ?? and there was major differences for DM afflicting gsds? I never looked for any follow up, this just happen to ring a bell.


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## Nigel

Here's the old thread.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/185583-dm-tests-inaccurate-gsds.html

And a petition

http://www.change.org/petitions/ofa-university-of-missouri-dna-dm-test-designations


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## JakodaCD OA

nigel, yes there is testing for DM on gsd's out there,,but some say it's not as accurate as it should be?


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## Doc

How about SAR, wheelchair dogs, brave and balance, Guide dogs for the blind, PTSD dogs, health detection ie. sugar drop, strokes, cancer, etc? I guess none of that is considered "work" anymore. In today's world, the only thing "work" is about biting a sleeve.


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## Blitzkrieg1

How predictable..its funny that those who defend breeding without adequate testing always end up belittling IPO or other bite sports. We all know IPO is more about training then the dog. So the fact that these dogs are incapable of even getting IPO titles should tell you a lot. The fact that certain breeders are not capable of training and trialing their dogs for a title tells you a lot about how much they know and understand their dogs. If you have any clue about what to look for you will find out what you have during the training process, the aquisition of the title itself is only part of the picture. 
It is nonsense to assume that certain names in a pedigree make the dog if generations have not undergone rigorous testing and culling.

Then the usual talk about "real" work starts..then you find out that none of the dogs do "real" work either. I have done "real" patrol work with different dogs in the past. I wouldnt have wanted pups from 85% of them.. so again "real work is just a piece of the puzzle and does not breeding quality make.

All successful breeders generally have one thing in common, dogs being successful in multiple venues.

I or any other nitwit can achieve a similar breeding program in my back yard or basement. Have a garbage website, and tell fantastic stories about my dogs ancestors and their mythical abilities.


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## trcy

Doc said:


> How about SAR, wheelchair dogs, brave and balance, Guide dogs for the blind, PTSD dogs, health detection ie. sugar drop, strokes, cancer, etc? I guess none of that is considered "work" anymore. In today's world, the only thing "work" is about biting a sleeve.


Those dogs would also come from good breeding. When they have judging or standards for Sugar drop or PTSD that can be used for breeding then maybe it would be, but just about any dog can do those things. 

You are aware that biting the sleeve is just once part of IPO...right? Tracking and obedience is part of IPO. Tracking and SAR go hand in hand, so having a dog that comes from proven lines would be very helpful.


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## Xeph

> When they have judging or standards for Sugar drop or PTSD that can be used for breeding then maybe it would be, but just about any dog can do those things.


This is absolutely NOT TRUE. There is so much more to service work than just the training.


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## trcy

Xeph said:


> This is absolutely NOT TRUE. There is so much more to service work than just the training.


What's not true? They don't use any of that for a breeding standard. Can dogs do it? Yes, lots of dogs do, but it's not judged or titled for breeding. Which was the point. There are lots of jobs for dogs to do. That's not being debated. The breeding standard is derived from IPO and conformation. 

I agree, I can go to the pound and choose a dog to do SAR, medical assist or seeing eye dog, but that has nothing to do with the breeding standards for GSD's. 


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## GsdLoverr729

Xeph said:


> This is absolutely NOT TRUE. There is so much more to service work than just the training.


I think what trcy was trying to say is that *service work can be done by any breed or mixed breed* (dependent on the particular dog). Labs, doodles, goldens, shepherds, etc. 
Personally, I don't view service work as a good basis for deciding if a German shepherd dog is breedworthy. *I am not by any means belittling service work! *My point is that there are other 'jobs' that, in MY mind, prove a shepherd far more. SAR, IPO/SchH, Police work, personal protection, herding, etc are more prevalent in my mind. 
As for breeding for over-sized shepherds. I believe that it is one thing for a reputable breeder to have an over-sized pup crop up once in a while. Specifically breeding for over-sized dogs and advertising them as 'old time' shepherds is just ridiculous. I will admit that for a while I wanted an over-size, but with more research I realized that I did NOT want to support those kinds of breeding habits. And I didn't want to risk the health concerns. Also- From what I have been researching, and a lot of the most knowledgeable members have posted in the past, the original German shepherd dogs were actually SMALLER than what we have today. So I am missing how the over-sized dogs are "old style."

Just my two cents lol.


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## Merciel

trcy said:


> I can go to the pound and choose a dog to do SAR, medical assist or seeing eye dog


lol

edit: sorry, that's not a helpful response.

Maybe it would be fairer to say: _I_ can't go to the pound and find a dog to do any of those tasks, let alone all three.


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> How about SAR, wheelchair dogs, brave and balance, Guide dogs for the blind, PTSD dogs, health detection ie. sugar drop, strokes, cancer, etc? I guess none of that is considered "work" anymore. In today's world, the only thing "work" is about biting a sleeve.


Again, belittling IPO with the "biting a sleeve" comment....doesn't it bother you that the only expectations for these dogs, in your eyes, is the jobs you've listed....I am NOT saying these are easy jobs, but comparatively speaking...the lab following and helping the man in the wheel chair is a VERY far cry from a police dog holding a grip on a bad guy who's trying to beat the crap out of or kill the dog, or an sport dog forced to overcome discomfort to perform, or the military dog scaling buildings and looking for bombs 10+ hours a day at high speed (ask David Winners about what it takes to be a military dog)....

You are setting the bar for breeding as low as you possibly can...and belittling those who strive to have success with their breeding stock in the toughest venues they can find, at least they are DOING something...something very hard at that....that doesn't bother you?? Why wouldn't you breed with the highest/hardest expectations? Along the way you will absolutely have plenty of dogs that can fulfill the "easier" (I am just comparing the pressure received on the dog amongst these different venues) homes via pets or some of the simpler jobs that a lot of shelter dogs could achieve (basic obedience, PTSD etc). But you will hold your standards and pride placing MAYBE a few dogs every couple of years that can be wheelchair service dogs and therapy dogs....come on now...stop belittling something you've never tried to achieve yourself with these "old school, true GSD dogs"...it takes a great dog and a hard working handler to achieve the things I've listed....I'm sorry your expectations and standards are so low....

The thing that just gets my goat are people like you who may make a person think they can't handle a working line, because you make it sound like if they are being bred to perform in a sport like IPO, they are some neurotic crazed dog that will want to just bite bite bite...truth is, most working breeders HAVE a TON of progeny living in homes, simply as the family pet....yet they STILL hold their standards as high as possible. It's like these breeders are saying, "I just want to breed pets, and that's my excuse for not doing anything with my dogs" or even worse, they say that, but then still preach that the dog is what a GSD "should be".....then the dog can't handle anything when put to the test...and the crazy thing...last I checked the minimum these breeders were charging was $1800....minimum...for untested temperaments and lip promises....crazy...if you're going to breed so far off the standard, or breed to some standard you've made up in your head, you can't pick and choose what you like about it and what you can claim your dog is or can achieve....breed whatever you want....but stop telling people they can do things they can't or haven't proven...or that this dog could hold a candle to the "dogs of old" when NOTHING is being done to prove that...and from what I've seen, sorry, but most would be removed from the breeding gene pool immediately.


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## trcy

Merciel said:


> lol
> 
> edit: sorry, that's not a helpful response.
> 
> Maybe it would be fairer to say: _I_ can't go to the pound and find a dog to do any of those tasks, let alone all three.


I know someone who does get dogs from the pound and teaches them how to do jobs such as scent work and SAR. so, I know it can be done. I never said one dog would do all three or all jobs. 


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## Nigel

Merciel said:


> lol
> 
> edit: sorry, that's not a helpful response.
> 
> Maybe it would be fairer to say: _I_ can't go to the pound and find a dog to do any of those tasks, let alone all three.


Agreed!! We watched a program following what goes into the breeding/raising/training seeing eye dogs, very very involved, extremely unlikely you'll find a pup capable of this kind of work from the pound.


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## Merciel

trcy said:


> I know someone who does get dogs from the pound and teaches them how to do jobs such as scent work and SAR. so, I know it can be done. I never said one dog would do all three or all jobs.


Oh, I know it can be done.

I also know how many dogs they have to screen through (hundreds to find one candidate) and how many wash out during the training process. It is a labor of love, and it takes an exceptionally skilled eye to spot that kind of potential. Why do you suppose so many service organiations have their own breeding programs?

None of those jobs are "easier" than IPO. The training is difficult and demanding, the physical stamina and intelligence required is enormous, and it's a rare dog who can do any one of those jobs.

The only real difference is that they don't require aggression, and there are some who'd argue that aggression is necessary to the "true" GSD.


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## Doc

You know absolutely nothing about me or working dogs other than chase and bite work. You lack of appreciation of the breed comes through loud and clear. It's people like you that have ruined this breed.im sure the moderators will put me in time out for my comments but the truth is the truth. How can you say a wheelchair dog is less of a dog than a police dog? You are clueless to the pressure and challenges the service dog encounters. Distractions at every turn, physical demands to pull the chair, open doors, brains to know what isle a certain item is on in a grocery store, the ability to maneuver in strange places, people wanting to gawk and pet and the list goes on and on. But to make a statement that these dogs are not as worthy as a police dog exposes your lack of knowledge and respect for this breed. 



DaniFani said:


> Again, belittling IPO with the "biting a sleeve" comment....doesn't it bother you that the only expectations for these dogs, in your eyes, is the jobs you've listed....I am NOT saying these are easy jobs, but comparatively speaking...the lab following and helping the man in the wheel chair is a VERY far cry from a police dog holding a grip on a bad guy who's trying to beat the crap out of or kill the dog, or an sport dog forced to overcome discomfort to perform, or the military dog scaling buildings and looking for bombs 10+ hours a day at high speed (ask David Winners about what it takes to be a military dog)....
> 
> You are setting the bar for breeding as low as you possibly can...and belittling those who strive to have success with their breeding stock in the toughest venues they can find, at least they are DOING something...something very hard at that....that doesn't bother you?? Why wouldn't you breed with the highest/hardest expectations? Along the way you will absolutely have plenty of dogs that can fulfill the "easier" (I am just comparing the pressure received on the dog amongst these different venues) homes via pets or some of the simpler jobs that a lot of shelter dogs could achieve. But you will hold your standards and pride placing MAYBE a few dogs every couple of years that can be wheelchair service dogs and therapy dogs....come on now...stop belittling something you've never tried to achieve yourself with these "old school, true GSD dogs"...it takes a great dog and a hard working handler to achieve the things I've listed....I'm sorry your expectations and standards are so low....
> 
> The thing that just gets my goat are people like you who may make a person think they can't handle a working line, because you make it sound like if they are being bred to perform in a sport like IPO, they are some neurotic crazed dog that will want to just bite bite bite...truth is, most working breeders HAVE a TON of progeny living in homes, simply as the family pet....yet they STILL hold their standards as high as possible. It's like these breeders are saying, "I just want to breed pets, and that's my excuse for not doing anything with my dogs" or even worse, they say that, but then still preach that the dog is what a GSD "should be".....then the dog can't handle anything when put to the test...and the crazy thing...last I checked the minimum these breeders were charging was $1800....minimum...for untested temperaments and lip promises....crazy...if you're going to breed so far off the standard, or breed to some standard you've made up in your head, you can't pick and choose what you like about it and what you can claim your dog is or can achieve....breed whatever you want....but stop telling people they can do things they can't or haven't proven...or that this dog could hold a candle to the "dogs of old" when NOTHING is being done to prove that...and from what I've seen, sorry, but most would be removed from the breeding gene pool immediately.


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## trcy

I have two other dogs that are mixed breed. I'm not a breed snob, but my first GSD was not bred with titled parents. He was bred to be a pet which was fine until his breeding failed him. He had serious health issues and had to be PTS. I understand that does not happen to everyone, but in a breed that can have so many health issues I personally think it's best to breed within the standard with all the health testing. When they start having health issues it's heart breaking and very expensive. 

I love all dogs. If I met an extra large GSD I'm sure I would love it, but I wouldn't buy one. I know someone who had one. He was a nice dog with health issues. Allergies, chronic ear infections and I'm sure he had HD. He could barely move as he aged and could not do stairs at all. The owner did not get X-rays done. He eventually had to be PTS. He was eight years old. 

People will do what they want. I know that. There is a breed standard for a reason though. 


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> You know absolutely nothing about me or working dogs other than chase and bite work. You lack of appreciation of the breed comes through loud and clear. It's people like you that have ruined this breed.im sure the moderators will put me in time out for my comments but the truth is the truth. How can you say a wheelchair dog is less of a dog than a police dog? You are clueless to the pressure and challenges the service dog encounters. Distractions at every turn, physical demands to pull the chair, open doors, brains to know what isle a certain item is on in a grocery store, the ability to maneuver in strange places, people wanting to gawk and pet and the list goes on and on. But to make a statement that these dogs are not as worthy as a police dog exposes your lack of knowledge and respect for this breed.


I specifically said I am comparing the *pressure* put on one dog in one venue compared to the *pressure* put on the other dog...you are saying the pressure of the dog to stay engaged with it's handler in a wheelchair at the grocery store or wherever, is the same as a police dog being stabbed and holding a grip?? And I do actually have lot of experience, and a very good friend who trains therapy dogs SPECIFICALLY for those in wheelchairs through an organization in Michigan....it's a noble and wonderful job, I just don't think it's the defining characteristic of a GSD...a stable/clear dog? Sure, absolutely!! But there is a lot more to the GSD than stability and clearness....that's my only point....jeesh....funny, you can belittle bitework up one side and down the other, but I question your "standard" and I'm told I'm "ruining the breed." That's about as rich as it gets lol.


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## DaniFani

And the fact that you keep referring to IPO being "chase and bitework" is also rich! Have you trained an IPO dog...tracking, obedience, and bitework? Have you seen any of these dogs you claim would be loved by the creator of the breed....asked to show a balance in their aggression (which can't be seen in the jobs you've listed and is a very important piece of the GSD...BALANCED/controlled aggression), control and capping their drives, figuring out a track...step.by.step....being able to bite while they take stick hits in the head...."out" immediately when told....catch a bad guy on the street and then go home to the kids to be pet and loved??? But any dog can do that right?? Any dog can be trained to do that, right?? Any dog with a known successful dog 30+ generations back...they'll have it still?? Right?? No need to test it....l.o.l....


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## Franksmom

This discussion is one of those that will always result in an argument. Those of us who have these dogs and love them will always defend them.
Those who believe the "standard" has to be followed exactly to get a true GSD will never understand. 
Frank"s Father is from Royalair but he is not. 
Love him to death
He is 30 inches and 90 pounds at 3 years. He runs and plays with my BC's and doesn't wear out at all. 
You can get Good or Bad dogs from ANY Breeder. 
I think all the GSD lines have a place, and truthfully if Breeders would mix the lines together a little more, The GSD would be an even greater dog then it is now.


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## Jd414

Franksmom said:


> This discussion is one of those that will always result in an argument. Those of us who have these dogs and love them will always defend them.
> Those who believe the "standard" has to be followed exactly to get a true GSD will never understand.
> Frank"s Father is from Royalair but he is not.
> Love him to death
> He is 30 inches and 90 pounds at 3 years. He runs and plays with my BC's and doesn't wear out at all.
> You can get Good or Bad dogs from ANY Breeder.
> I think all the GSD lines have a place, and truthfully if Breeders would mix the lines together a little more, The GSD would be an even greater dog then it is now.


Well said

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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> And the fact that you keep referring to IPO being "chase and bitework" is also rich! Have you trained an IPO dog...tracking, obedience, and bitework? Have you seen any of these dogs you claim would be loved by the creator of the breed....asked to show a balance in their aggression (which can't be seen in the jobs you've listed and is a very important piece of the GSD...BALANCED/controlled aggression), control and capping their drives, figuring out a track...step.by.step....being able to bite while they take stick hits in the head...."out" immediately when told....catch a bad guy on the street and then go home to the kids to be pet and loved??? But any dog can do that right?? Any dog can be trained to do that, right?? Any dog with a known successful dog 30+ generations back...they'll have it still?? Right?? No need to test it....l.o.l....


You get all out of character when someone talks about something you have a passion for but yet you think you can talk about what other peoples passions and beliefs are. You are wrong.. 

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## onyx'girl

so those that want an oversize GSD, you know who to contact. Those that want a GSD that is bred with the standard in mind, I'm sure you can be directed easily to responsible breeders. This thread, like so many others with the same subject has run its course.


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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> You get all out of character when someone talks about something you have a passion for but yet you think you can talk about what other peoples passions and beliefs are. You are wrong..
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha, sometimes I think you and I are reading completely different threads....your boy Doc, after putting down EVERY venue I suggested, from police, to military, to K9, to IPO, to HERDING...and saying they aren't "good enough"...FINALLY, after much poking and prawding, states that therapy dogs are his examples of breed testing...I asked how that tests aggression and balanced nerves in HIGH pressure situations....and said I don't believe, COMPARATIVELY that one pressure is equal to the other...but whatever, just don't claim the wheelchair dog can do any kind of protection/police/IPO work without *testing* that!! 

Let me state it another way for your brain...I tell you, "I can run 3 miles without stopping, so I think that means I can run 15 miles without stopping." Do you say "oh, okay....I believe you...running the three miles proves you can run 15 miles without stopping." Running 3 miles is GREAT, but it requires more energy, more practice, more muscle, more endurance, to run *15*....3 does not equal 15....on the flip side, if I run 15 miles straight, without stopping and then I come to you and say, "hey, because I can run 15 miles straight, I can run 3 miles straight." Are you going to say, "bull crap, I want to see you run 3." Or are you going to know that if I can do 15, surely I can do 3....because I have what it takes to do the higher end, I can definitely do the lower end. 

Now turn that into the dog world....if the dog can do the high end of *pressure* and obedience of K9, military, IPO, etc...they can probably (if everything is *correct* in these venues) assume the dog would be able to focus only on owner with wheelchair in a busy supermarket and not be nerved out by kids, carts, strangers, aisles, etc....I just don't think you can say, "Because it can handle being a therapy dog...it could handle the higher pressure venues."

...do whatever you want....just don't make claims to buyers the dogs can do something they haven't proven...or make people looking at working lines think they are some bite-crazy, unstable, pointless, sport-dogs....unsuitable for family living. Stick to the venues you've *repeatedly* tested your dogs for, and don't claim they can do something based on dogs traced back 28 generations....that's all. I think I've contributed as much as I can to this thread to give the other side of thoughts on this type of "GSD" breeding, for anyone researching these lines and considering purchasing a dog from said breeders.


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## Jd414

onyx'girl said:


> so those that want an oversize GSD, you know who to contact. Those that want a GSD that is bred with the standard in mind, I'm sure you can be directed easily to responsible breeders. This thread, like so many others with the same subject has run its course.


The only reason this keeps coming up is because ignorant ppl on this forum start arguments every time someone posts something about a GSD that is not in the "standard" 

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## Jd414

DaniFani said:


> Haha, sometimes I think you and I are reading completely different threads....your boy Doc, after putting down EVERY venue I suggested, from police, to military, to K9, to IPO, to HERDING...and saying they aren't "good enough"...FINALLY, after much poking and prawding, states that therapy dogs are his examples of breed testing...I asked how that tests aggression and balanced nerves in HIGH pressure situations....and said I don't believe, COMPARATIVELY that one pressure is equal to the other...but whatever, just don't claim the wheelchair dog can do any kind of protection/police/IPO work without *testing* that!!
> 
> Let me state it another way for your brain...I tell you I can run 3 miles without stopping, so that means I can run 15 miles without stopping." Do you say "oh, okay....I believe you...running the three miles proves you can run 15 miles without stopping." Running 3 miles is GREAT, but it requires more energy, more practice, more muscle, more endurance, to run *15*....3 does not equal 15....on the flip side, if I run 15 miles straight, without stopping and then I come to you and say, "hey, because I can run 15 miles straight, I can run 3 miles straight." Are you going to say, "bull crap, I want to see you run 3." Or are you going to know that if I can do 15, surely I can do 3....because I have what it takes to do the higher end, I can definitely do the lower end.
> 
> Now turn that into the dog world....if the dog can do the high end of *pressure* and obedience of K9, military, IPO, etc...they can probably (if everything is *correct* in these venues) assume the dog would be able to focus only on owner with wheelchair in a busy supermarket and not be nerved out by kids, carts, strangers, aisles, etc....I just don't think you can say, "Because it can handle being a therapy dog...it could handle the higher pressure venues."
> 
> ...do whatever you want....just don't make claims to buyers the dogs can do something they haven't proven...or make people looking at working lines think they are some bite-crazy, unstable, pointless, sport-dogs....unsuitable for family living. Stick to the venues you've *repeatedly* tested your dogs for, and don't claim they can do something based on dogs traced back 28 generations....that's all. I think I've contributed as much as I can to this thread to give the other side of thoughts on this type of "GSD" breeding, for anyone researching these lines and considering purchasing a dog from said breeders.


I don't have time to read your long stories and comparisons....sorry

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## DaniFani

Jd414 said:


> I don't have time to read your long stories and comparisons....sorry
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha, why?? Chance you might become a little less ignorant...yeah, I'd stick to debating and discussing with those only agreeing with me too....you'll learn a lot and go far in life that way.


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## GsdLoverr729

Jd414 said:


> I don't have time to read your long stories and comparisons....sorry
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 If you don't have time to read someone's full post, then you should not have the time to respond to them. And you surely shouldn't be responding to someone without FULLY reading what they have to say. JMO


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## DaniFani

GsdLoverr729 said:


> If you don't have time to read someone's full post, then you should not have the time to respond to them. And you surely shouldn't be responding to someone without FULLY reading what they have to say. JMO


Don't worry, it's a common tactic of debate used by the immature and uninformed....when all else fails, plug-my-fingers-in-ear-and-only-stop-when-someone-agrees-with-me, and the much loved "im-not-listening" debater. Lol


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## Jd414

GsdLoverr729 said:


> If you don't have time to read someone's full post, then you should not have the time to respond to them. And you surely shouldn't be responding to someone without FULLY reading what they have to say. JMO


Your opinion has been noted

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## onyx'girl

Jd414 said:


> The only reason this keeps coming up is because ignorant ppl on this forum start arguments every time someone posts something about a GSD that is not in the "standard"


Ignorant people? Pot kettle and all that...I love this breed. I want it to be what it is meant to be. Not bred for those with agenda's on what they think it should be or to market it for reasons other than what is true to the breed. Not that difficult to understand.
Though it is what it is, and I'll choose to support the breeder that is keeping this breed a balanced stable working healthy dog.


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## Jack's Dad

Dani Fani. What's the point? Because a dog titles in IPO, all you know is the dog had a good trainer and accomplished the trained tasks. It doesn't mean it will be the best dog to breed or that it has the temperament to herd, be a therapy dog, wheelchair dog or even a good dog around family or kids. It might make a horrible police dog. 

IPO has it's place but don't put so much faith in it.


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## Chris Wild

Like so many other times this topic has come up before, this has deteriorated into nothing of value, just snarking back and forth. Thread closed.

-Admin


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