# One step forward, ten steps back... Agression, lunging at guest.



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Zelda has been doing amazing. For anyone following us, they will know what we have been through,etc. 
However I am so devasted at this point...
Today i went to my moms house. She had 2 guests over. One she never seen, the other she saw a few times,but that girl hasnt been able to touch Zelda yet.
Zelda actually let the new lady touch her, scratch her right away.. I was impressed and blown away. Zelda is muzzled btw this whole time. I was right there. Zelda was relaxed and calm, the lady moved her face down, and zelda shrunk back and growled. So i took her away. I was than being proactive keeping her with me. Later we were all sitting down, my sister brought her aussie pup, who is insecure, and growls and barks at most strangers. She is aout 9 months. So the pup was doing this to this lady, and my dog started to as well. Zelda even started lunging and she ignored my commands. she had a leash on her, we had to pull her back.. I felt so blown away. I never seen her do this. And she even was somewhat okay with this lady earlier. I asked my sister if she thought Zelda would have bit her, she said i think so, she was almost going after her hands..
I had Zelda come back. This shouldnt have happened a second time, but it did. I was sitting again Zelda went to go say hi to my mom and went un der the table to lay down. I felt like she was settling and that new lady was sitting a few yards away and my sister was inbtween her and the lady.. Well the lady started talking to my sisters pup and she started to growl/bark. So Zelda got up again and lunged at her.. Ad i pulld he rback. And scruffed her neck and said SIT and she did. I lost my cool. This was my fault. So i than did some obedience riht next to the lady, and she did great just going by her, etc. 

Pack mentality? Did Zelda, already insure, feel like she had to protect the pup, who is also insecure? 

I feel like a horrible person. Makes me feel so depressed.. I feel so down right now.. That is essentially the story, short and i probably missed out on some major details. But i did my best... 

I need some words of wisdom and advice..
Do you think, it had something to do with pack mentality? I dont know.. TIA


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

The lady seems super nice, she love animals. And seemed not fearful, but perhaps she was. She couldn't kee her hands to herself, and obviously not keeping her eyes off the dogs and getting eye contact and saying their names, etc. 

I failed... :crazy:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It feels awful when you're clicking along making progress and then boom!I think you're right about the pack mentality.I imagine it's still stressful for her in some social situations and the 2nd dog's reaction was the tipping point,then she just wasn't able to recover and get calmed.She was still feeling edgy.Think it over and think of a different strategy in case there's a similar situation in the future


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Handy to not let inexperienced people touch your dog especially if it has weak nerves. Sitting and dog being calm is better result rather than forced interactions where person doesn't know how to keep dog at ease through body language.

I would have dog leashed and sitting beside me if dog isn't used to the people.

You knew the other dog was yappy growly unruley and you still allowed your dog interact and it ended up copying that dog and going further.

One badly behaved dog if not dealt with does influence other dogs behaviors. Again if person can't control there dog you shouldn't be taking the chance by allowing your dog interact esp with strangers around who want to talk to and rub dogs. 

One part of dog handling in these circumstance is communicating with the people and having boundaries around your dog. If people can't act accordingly then better to remove the dog from the situation. 



> he couldn't keep her hands to herself, and obviously not keeping her eyes off the dogs and getting eye contact and saying their names, etc.


This is the opposite of how she should act around unknown dogs. I feel playing it cool with dogs is the best way for them to respect people.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

The Labs & Co. » Project Dogs: A Letter to Myself (and Others)

I came across this article the first week I brought my recent rescue dog home and it was really encouraging for the first couple months especially! He has/had such an extreme fear of strangers. Seeing a person even a couple hundred ft away could cause an extreme meltdown, (trying to flee, defecating, shutting down, shaking etc) in the beginning. So as you can imagine, a lot of our walks did not end with either of us feeling so great. He's made so much progress now and focusing on all the little good things while viewing the not so great ones as learning opportunities is what keeps us plugging forward and loving the journey!  

The worst thing you can do (for you and your dog) is to beat yourself up and dwell on the bad. You're not perfect and neither is your dog. So look at the situation, and find what you could do better next time, but don't wallow in guilt or feeling like a failure. You have made so much progress with Zelda and this one incident doesn't mean you're taking a step back. Its a new different situation that didn't go so great, but that you can learn from


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some of us want a dog that we take everywhere. But we have a dog that is better off at home. I am not saying don't take her for walks or classes. But if going to your mom's there is going to be another young bitch who is also reactive and nervy, that's just too much chaos for the dog you have. 

Leave her at home, and what your sister does, she does. 

If you spend the night there, long trip, whatever. Bring along her crate, and when there is company, crate her in the bedroom you are staying in, and lock the door, so no one goes in there and bothers her. 

They're family, but they are not family. They are not humans. Sorry. They will be perfectly happy without all that insanity. A dog in a heightened, nervy, state, who has to wear a muzzle, around another spazzing dog isn't in a good place.

Leave your dog at home. Enjoy your family, then go home and enjoy your dog. Maybe with some maturity, she will relax a little, and your sister's dog might be hit by a bus or something, and maybe down the line, with patience, and trust built by lots of training, you will both be at a much better place. And you will then go to your mother's house with your dog, and she will be much easier. And maybe not. 

I think when we get a dog, we need to accept to an extent their limitations, and that some of them are not social butterflies.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

and her sisters dog might be hit by a bus or something?

what the **** are you talking about selzer?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Fodder said:


> and her sisters dog might be hit by a bus or something?
> 
> what the **** are you talking about selzer?


I am just saying circumstances change. Keeping her home from chaotic situations for a while doesn't necessarily mean forever. The sister might move to Idaho. The dog might not be around forever. 

Having two nervy, aggressive, dogs that don't live together, at another person's home, with company, is pretty insane.

And don't say the other dog doesn't play into it. It does. Dogs do act differently around other dogs they know or don't know out in public or away from home. If one is muzzled and the other isn't well that could also be a factor. The dog isn't stupid. It knows it is disadvantaged in that situation.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> The lady seems super nice, she love animals. And seemed not fearful, but perhaps she was. She couldn't kee her hands to herself, and obviously not keeping her eyes off the dogs and getting eye contact and saying their names, etc.
> 
> I failed... :crazy:


You didn't fail. Sometimes you just have to say, they're dogs. They are what they are and some of them are never going to be an ok with strangers type of dog. Its their temperament and you can't change it. She's your dog, just enjoy her and don't try to fight against what her temperament is capable of.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

then say that circumstances change, say that the sister may move to Idaho... but to call out death or injury upon someone's dog is what's insane. my brothers dog is a pain in the ass but I'd never put in my mind the thought of him being hit by a bus and I'd be pissed if a stranger did. for all you know the OP is close to her sister and loves the dog like her own.

I'm not disputing that the other dog was a factor. but your comment, was uncalled for, simple as that. basic social etiquette.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have had two dogs with fear aggression. I was very careful not to have them around other nervy dogs because dogs totally feed off of one another. Right now I have a rock solid, friendly dog and often care for a very shy dog. She is much more confident and outgoing when she is with my dog. 

Don't beat yourself up but do be aware of Zelda's threshold. In the future if she has issues with someone then call it day. And I wouldn't, under any circumstances, allow someone to put their face down around my dog's face, even if they are wearing a muzzle. That is just not appropriate behavior from a human!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Fodder said:


> then say that circumstances change, say that the sister may move to Idaho... but to call out death or injury upon someone's dog is what's insane. my brothers dog is a pain in the ass but I'd never put in my mind the thought of him being hit by a bus and I'd be pissed if a stranger did. for all you know the OP is close to her sister and loves the dog like her own.
> 
> I'm not disputing that the other dog was a factor. but your comment, was uncalled for, simple as that. basic social etiquette.


You're right. I am sorry. 

I am coming from a different kind of family situation. Sometimes that bleeds through. It is just common for us to say things like, "Slash their tires!" or "Maybe he'll get run over by a bus." We are not hoping for it, or calling for it. I guess it is just a way for us to accept that we don't have control, and we will have to wait for the situation to change.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have a dog who is similar to Zelda. I have to carefully manage his interactions with dogs and people. I'm very careful who I allow to interact with him.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

VTGirlT said:


> Zelda has been doing amazing. For anyone following us, they will know what we have been through,etc.
> However I am so devasted at this point...
> Today i went to my moms house. She had 2 guests over. One she never seen, the other she saw a few times,but that girl hasnt been able to touch Zelda yet.
> Zelda actually let the new lady touch her, scratch her right away.. I was impressed and blown away. Zelda is muzzled btw this whole time. I was right there. Zelda was relaxed and calm, the lady moved her face down, and zelda shrunk back and growled. So i took her away. I was than being proactive keeping her with me. Later we were all sitting down, my sister brought her aussie pup, who is insecure, and growls and barks at most strangers. She is aout 9 months. So the pup was doing this to this lady, and my dog started to as well. Zelda even started lunging and she ignored my commands. she had a leash on her, we had to pull her back.. I felt so blown away. I never seen her do this. And she even was somewhat okay with this lady earlier. I asked my sister if she thought Zelda would have bit her, she said i think so, she was almost going after her hands..
> ...


What do you do to correct this inappropriate aggression? 

I do agree that you can not change temperament. You can however change behavior. 

I also agree that not all dogs belong at the family picnic or Thanksgiving dinner at the relatives. I just had a party at my home with 30 friends, my dogs were in kennels. Especially my male, Boomer. While he is completely under control and trained, he does not like strangers touching him and does not tolerate it well. It is simple to not put him into a situation where he may tag some one. This doesn't make him a bad dog, an unstable dog or an ultra aggressive dog IMO. But, he will bite, does bite and has proven this many times when it was appropriate for him to bite. I just don't see the need to put him or myself in an unnecessary situation. I'd rather avoid the liability and hospital visit with my guests.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> What do you do to correct this inappropriate aggression?
> 
> I do agree that you can not change temperament. You can however change behavior.
> 
> I also agree that not all dogs belong at the family picnic or Thanksgiving dinner at the relatives. I just had a party at my home with 30 friends, my dogs were in kennels. Especially my male, Boomer. While he is completely under control and trained, he does not like strangers touching him and does not tolerate it well. It is simple to not put him into a situation where he may tag some one. This doesn't make him a bad dog, an unstable dog or an ultra aggressive dog IMO. But, he will bite, does bite and has proven this many times when it was appropriate for him to bite. I just don't see the need to put him or myself in an unnecessary situation. I'd rather avoid the liability and hospital visit with my guests.


This. Ditto on temperament and behavior.

I don't understand why so many people feel an overwhelming urge to force their dogs to interact with strangers or guests, sometimes it is simply better off just to kennel or crate them. 

Some dogs are zero mistake dogs and should never be given the opportunity to break a place or stay command.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... I will point out the "one" thing you did right. You used a muzzle when you took your dog into a *"severely stressful situation"* for him, so no one got bit! You did get that right. 

Other than that some pretty poor choices were made on your part.  But ...not to fear if your willing to change your "expectations" based on the dog you have. You can have a dog that is safe in public. You have a "Bubble" dog (a dog that needs to be muzzled in public) I don't consider that as an "insult" myself as I also (had) one.

So yes, been there done that and we got it done! And for me going from a people friendly Am Band Dawg and a Boxer that luv'd uh "everyone" was quite a change. But I had to deal with the dog I had and not the dog I wanted.

So I lowered my sights, Rocky did not have to like anyone but he did have to be civil and safe. Not that big a deal, step one "out and about." We "walked" in public he was muzzled at first and when I met people, he went behind me (I stepped in front of him) and I explained why "no" you can't pet my dog." I kept people out of his face and I had zero interest in having anyone "Pet" him or give him treats. Rocky observed and after awhile I no longer needed the muzzle. We treated people like "furniture" nothing to see here dog move along."

So no trying to trick him into letting people into his face with the use of treats. No dog on the street "I thought my dog was friendly" meetings, no one got in his face. After awhile I dropped the use of the muzzle in public, he learned that he could trust "me" and once he understood that and I could read him, as I now understood how he looked when he was "chill" we no longer needed the muzzle.

Details to that approach are in the second link ... "Who Pets ..."
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

The second thing I did was change the way "Rocky" interacted with friends and family in the home. The rules were fairly simple, "he does not and they don't!" He stays in "Place" and I keep company, out of his face." I did not know it at the time but I had trained the "Place Command" more formally it looks like this:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And needless, to say he does not go over to my friends with dogs houses (nothing new there, I don't trust other people's dog's.)

And the rest of his story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

And today he has met several "strangers" over the years. I'm not as anal as I was but I still keep company, out of his face in the home. In the field, people are no big thing (Uh we don't do kids!) but at home yeah ... "Place" is good.

If you're willing to the adapt to the dog you have and you make some changes in your expectations of him, you can do it. If you want to change him into a "people friendly GSD" as opposed to "people safe??" On that, I have no clue?? 

And "Rocky" ... today by and large, now he's just a dog, not a four-legged liability.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think people want there dog to be normal and are always hopeful it can learn to be calm in peoples company. There is always the theory to socialize the dog as much as possible to get the dog used to people environment etc.

But dogs learn at there own pace and sometimes the meetings are forced, the dogs reacts badly and is the center of attention for the wrong reasons. Basically it has been flooded and can't cope, or it's method to deal with it is too be aggressive.

I've been there and made lots of mistakes with my female but looking back, I learnt something every encounter. You start to see patterns in the behavior. 

It has been said a dogs temperament doesn't change. I don't agree. If anyone noticed there dogs temperament at 6 months old being similar to being 4 years old please let me know.

I see a world of difference in my female who was human aggressive and suffered extreme environmental stress. I would think anyone who tested her temperament at different ages would see very different dogs.

Confidence can replace insecurity. Awareness can replace uncertainty. The dog learns who it is and realizes what it is surrounded by, people, places, objects etc. Dogs ability to deal with stress can greatly change. 

Like we can turn a insecure dog into a secure one over time, and I would safely say we can do the opposite. If a dog is bomb proof, I think it has been well trained, as in the right training by the right person on the right dog. A dog who carries insecurity through out life just isn't getting the chance to improve due tom lack of experienced training.

In many regards training a weak nerved dog is controlling the environment, and working the dog within it's threshold. But it takes more like desensitizing and counter conditioning and sometimes flooding(caution recommended, but it's going to happen whether you like it or not so good to do it in controlled environment and see how dog does). Exercise is very important as is socializing with dogs under the right circumstances. 

I would think my female improved over the years but especially between 9 months to 1.5 years, and every heat after I seen slight changes to temperament.

Chemically the dogs brain is not the same from 1 to 3, (esp females), it changes. So I just don't buy the temperament doesn't change. But hopefully people who advertise that can enlighten me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have been saying for a long time that Apollo was different then my other two. Then just yesterday I realized that I didn't really do with him the same as the others. We didn't go to any doggie events this past summer of anywhere with crowds. Yes we keep a distance and we aren't there to mingle, but I do use that environment to my advantage. Yesterday we went to an indoor event and he was nervous at first, but his curiosity took over within minutes. He checked everything out, ignored dogs, but was interested in the rabbits and chickens he sniffed everyone walking by and did really well. Me on the other hand? I feel guilty that I didn't do this before yesterday, so this is Apollos year. Hopefully I didn't wait to long. We all make mistakes, we just have to acknowledge them and fix them


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I think people want there dog to be normal and are always hopeful it can learn to be calm in peoples company. There is always the theory to socialize the dog as much as possible to get the dog used to people environment etc.
> 
> But dogs learn at there own pace and sometimes the meetings are forced, the dogs reacts badly and is the center of attention for the wrong reasons. Basically it has been flooded and can't cope, or it's method to deal with it is too be aggressive.
> 
> ...


You're confusing behavior from training, experience, and maturity with temperament.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

selzer said:


> Some of us want a dog that we take everywhere. But we have a dog that is better off at home. I am not saying don't take her for walks or classes. But if going to your mom's there is going to be another young bitch who is also reactive and nervy, that's just too much chaos for the dog you have.
> 
> Leave her at home, and what your sister does, she does.
> 
> ...


Apparently Sue and I have the same warped sense of humor. I totally got that her 'bus' comment was to be taken tongue in cheek. No offense intended.

I hope the entirety of Sue's post is being read. Her points are very valid and should be taken seriously. It is extremely important to accept our dogs for who they are. If they have limitations, we must respect that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Apparently Sue and I have the same warped sense of humor. I totally got that her 'bus' comment was to be taken tongue in cheek. No offense intended.
> 
> I hope the entirety of Sue's post is being read. Her points are very valid and should be taken seriously. It is extremely important to accept our dogs for who they are. If they have limitations, we must respect that.


Yep, I got it but to "focused" to point it out so thanks for doing so. :


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

How about ...you can't change the "Temperament" but you can change the "Behaviour" pretty sure that's what I did. My guy still doesn't care for people but he can exist around them without issue. 

And I have no idea on the timeline?? It was weeks or months not years, he wasn't going anywhere so time for me was not a factor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the dog's temperament is what it is, but the outward manifestations of the temperament can be influenced by experiences (good and bad), socialization (good and bad), training (good for that dog and bad for that dog), training (properly done and improperly done), and overall leadership of the owner.

It is kind of like the temperament can produce a dog that is reasonably solid in most situations if the owner is a consistent, conscientious leader who is catering his leadership to the dog, providing good training, and careful socialization; could also be a dog who is nervy and unstable, a fear biter, reactive, etc, if the owner is a poor leader (wimpy, indulgent, or overbearing), if the training is not suited to the dog, or performed badly by the owner, and socialization is either not done at all, or done really badly. 

A questionable temperament could pass with good leadership, or fail miserably with poor leadership. 

A dog with good temperament, could be a superstar with good leadership, and with poor leadership he is unlikely to fail miserably, but he may develop some undesirable behaviors. 

If this is true, then we can take hope in this, because if we become a confident and consistent leader, our dogs' issues are likely to start to fade, we will learn how to manage them to the point that they are no longer an issue. And overall, our comfort level with managing the dog will translate in the dog to feeling less uncomfortable in situations. And as we mature in our relationship with this dog, the dog matures in the relationship with us, and even with a less than stellar temperament, he can certainly function safely in our world.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think the dog's temperament is what it is, but the outward manifestations of the temperament can be influenced by experiences (good and bad), socialization (good and bad), training (good for that dog and bad for that dog), training (properly done and improperly done), and overall leadership of the owner.
> 
> It is kind of like the temperament can produce a dog that is reasonably solid in most situations if the owner is a consistent, conscientious leader who is catering his leadership to the dog, providing good training, and careful socialization; could also be a dog who is nervy and unstable, a fear biter, reactive, etc, if the owner is a poor leader (wimpy, indulgent, or overbearing), if the training is not suited to the dog, or performed badly by the owner, and socialization is either not done at all, or done really badly.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great post!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Chemically the dogs brain is not the same from 1 to 3, (esp females), it changes. So I just don't buy the temperament doesn't change.


What do people say about this comment.

Do people think the chemical reactions in a dogs brain has any bearing on temperament.

Fear aggression and weak nerves is caused by the dog producing stress hormones in the brain. 

Remove these hormones and the dog acts/reacts differently imo.

I realize the temperament is a product of the genetics of the dog and there is a large portion of genetic temperament, but there has to be something which does change. Nothing in the body stays the same, cells are always in flux, the brains neuro connections are also changing due to hormones and chemical reactions in the brain caused by behaviors and reactions to external stimuli.

Is saying temperament doesn't change un-scientific in that regard and actually a belief many dog trainers hold onto, a kind of pseudo dog religion if you will!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Something to think about. 

Removing a dog from a situation in which it is growling and aggressive is essentially negative reinforcement for the behavior. The presence of the person triggers the behavior because the dog is fearful it acts in a way that ended up relieving the pressure.

It's the same response owners typically have that reinforces barking and lunging and stuff like that for leash reactivity.

It is essentially no different to you being annoyed by the beeping noise your car makes when you start up your car without putting on your seatbelt. You put the seatbelt on and the annoyance stops. Behavior is reinforced.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> What do people say about this comment.
> 
> Do people think the chemical reactions in a dogs brain has any bearing on temperament.
> 
> ...


Yup.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> What do people say about this comment.
> 
> Do people think the chemical reactions in a dogs brain has any bearing on temperament.
> 
> ...


You guy's can out science and out study me all day long, but I'd say since all dogs go through the things your talking about other then the actual surgical altering, temperament is how the dog handles them, that's why some never show a change and others do.


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