# A study, two male litter mates Raw/Kibble diet and progress reports...



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't really know if we can come to any conclusions, but I thought I would start a Post on two dogs from the same litter, two males, roughly the same size, but on two slightly different diets...


Interestingly while Caesar (my pup) is powering on, he is not doing as well as his smaller litter mate. I am going back to mostly the Raw Diet.* I am stopping the feeding of any kibble for right now.. Why? *It could be just chance or genetics or a growth spurt, but Caesars littler mate that was smaller and smaller boned, is 19.4 kg where Caesar weighed on the Vet Scale was 17.7 kg last Monday at 14 weeks. In about a week and a half, they are coming for a visit to bring the Litter Mate "Ollie" so we will see if he is taller and more developed. It could be the end of my mix of Raw and Kibble.


It could also be my fault and I need to alternate the diet a bit and not give a wide selection with every meal. Chicken one day, beef and bone and organ meat another day, and so on.. The Owner of Ollie, is a purist of Raw, and the smaller pup is doing better, probably my fault in leaving food around too long and making a picky eater, but *maybe the different digestive rate of the kibble could be a contributor... *I am going away from the kibble, just in case it is the cause. *A 1.7 kg difference, could be chance, or timing, and will reverse, or the pure Raw diet may just be better...* We will see. The Breeder says, that while there are exceptions, She can usually pick the bigger dog by bone size and head size, and Caesar should end up a bigger dog. Now this could be the odd one out, but according to her most of the time Caesar should end up a bigger boned, larger dog, judging by him in the litter. 

This may not be true, it could fall outside averages. Or it could be genetics, growth rate, or timing.. But it could also be my concern on diet. Anyway, we will see if the going back on the Raw diet 100% makes a difference. *Maybe the mix is just not good because of the different digestion issues, or maybe it is just chance. * We will follow it up for any of you interested...

Kind regards, out on the Last Frontier with GSD and horse in Australia...


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

This is interesting reading. I don't know if feeding raw or kibble would have an effect on size. If it did - well my big Sting would be a good advertisement for kibble, so I tend to agree with your breeder on the bone size and so on.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

This will be fun to see how it plays out.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

It could actually be all my fault... I understand the variety required for the all Raw diet, but have been mixing too much. He has had chicken, beef, liver, and more all in one dish.. I have made a little bit picky of an eater, also leaving it with him tooooo long.

What I need to do is two things: 
1) Feed chicken one day, beef and bone another, beef and organ meat, a different sort of meal each day, not a mix, that will keep him more interested.

2) I need to get in the habit of leaving it down for only a little while, so he eats when he has the chance... Or at night lock him up in his pen with his larger meal, as he will have nothing to do but eat..

We will see how it goes in the next week before we see Ollie on a visit...


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

A good goal in puppies is to limit their growth rate and keep them skinny. Otherwise its hard on young joints. My 10 week old never lets any food sit, but she was weaned on raw with her littermates so that makes sense. She does take her time with legs and feet but necks are one gulp so I cut them up.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow, this Thread is going to blow right open now... My Breeder is not only coming for a visit this weekend and bringing the comparo male litter mate along.. (Live three hours away)... But also both She and I are going to see a three females pups from a great working dog Bloodline, where the Bitch is 48 kg and the Dog is over 50 kg... That is about 120 lbs of working dogs.. Anyway it is likely we will both get a pick of the three bitches in that litter to keep for breeding... Expensive but worth it, as I have seen them in action...

So not only will I have the unique study of one bloodline siblings, but now two set of two littermates from two bloodlines. We both want a bitch from this litter, for future breeding. Stay tuned, this could get interesting, not conclusive but very interesting with matched siblings from two litters to study diet and exercise and development results of two different styles...

I get nothing of this, save research and love of the GSDs... But I hope it is a help to some of you trying to do the best by yours... :toasting:


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes - this is really getting interesting. Can't wait for the next installment. I was thinking you should get 2 dogs anyway - that will even up the odds with the dingos, and then the size of the dogs won't be such a concern.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> Yes - this is really getting interesting. Can't wait for the next installment. I was thinking you should get 2 dogs anyway - that will even up the odds with the dingos, and then the size of the dogs won't be such a concern.


Wow Mary Beth, You are a Sweetie !! And you are right, I have travelled with two Shepherds and it is the way to go.. My 10 year old Alpha Male has health problems, "Cody" (Dakota) and can't work anymore, and my 7 year old Bitch "Tonka" Wonkan Tonka (Buffalo Girl) has gone worthless. I made a few mistakes with her, spayed too early maybe, and She got bleeding gums unbeknowns to me had gotten into a rat poison cube, and She is just a lazy hang around.. She will always head home when she can.. It is one of those, OR She has the saying in Australia "Why have a dog and bark to" and she might just be letting the Alpha do all the work. 

There is a chance She will rise to the occasion when Cody passes on, and She might become Alpha and Pack Leader until my male pup grows up.. The male litter mate is coming this weekend, and Sunday I will go part way back with them to see the female I have pick of the litter on. I will travel with two again, but this is more for breeding a great working dog line...

Incidently, Mary Beth, my Great Grandfather came from your area in South Dakota, "Lakota" Sioux, as there is no "D" in the Sioux language. I am about 1/64th I guess, only got the nose, and a love of horses, guns, wolves, and whiskey..:rofl: Out on the Last Frontier of Australia doing Dancing with Wolves as best I can...

Here is a Link, if successful, of a Pup, 120 lbs of natural Sable in his second session of PPD training... His mother is who I am getting the female from, both me and my Breeder are signed up for a female from what will be her last litter. No wild dogs or dingos are going to want a piece of this:

Secrets To Remember - YouTube


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

yes, many of us Yanks consider your country to be the last frontier.So not surprising your great grandfather immigrated. I watched the video - my Sting enjoys those dog videos. And my Sting is big, but as I have heard "it is not the size of the dog, but the fight in the dog".


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Sting is very large and a good looking Dog...

I am hoping to get some good conclusions in having someone to compare notes with, two matching pups from two different litters, it should be interesting. Raw vrs Kibble or a combination is very controversial at best, and it is hard to know if you are doing the right thing by the one you love... :wub: 
My kids are gone, my Shepherds are my children now.. I mean RAW is hard and messy, but if it is better and they live longer, so be it. My Breeder is a Raw Purist. I myself wish I could switch over to kibble and just supplement with raw when I wanted, it would be so much easier. I might even do this at 12 months when the growth is in... ???? I do take this seriously though, and have now slaughtered an older cow of mine (have to get over the pet deal with my cow) as She developed bottle teat, big teats the calve could not latch onto. The last calf cost me $1500 in vet bills and weeks of hand feeding, and anyway She is in the freezers in 1 kg packets, still doing some good for the hobby farm.

BTW, it was me that immigrated. I wanted to raise my three Children here. I did not like the trend America was on, and coming to Australia was like going back in time. Anyway, might as well be the 53rd State here, it is so much the same, but more like 1960 Texas in many ways.. heh he...

You have a great Mate there in Sting. Interesting name, the name of the sword and constant companion of Bilbo Baggins from memory, in the Hobbit.. A great gift.. Your Sting seems to be also..

Kind regards, lone Ranger


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Raw fed puppies have a tendency to grow slower than kibble fed ones. This slow growth is GOOD as it puts less strain on joints.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Having a variety per each meal versus having one protein per meal doesn't make a difference in terms of raw feeding. I've done both ways. Does it really matter how big each puppy is at 14 weeks?  They grow so much during this stage anyway. I wouldn't really care until they're closer to the 1 year mark.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Raw fed puppies have a tendency to grow slower than kibble fed ones. This slow growth is GOOD as it puts less strain on joints.


Lauri, this is really no proof in any way, but interestingly in horses a grass and luscent (I think you call it alfalfa) fed horse will grow slower than a grain fed up one. Further, there is also some discussion that the slower growth is again stronger. They do it for the three year old Futurity horses, but like in a Quarter Horse they really grow a little till 5 or 6 y.o.

*Laurie & The Gang, I am hoping this is true, what you say.* It is a major motivation for me going Raw, never having done it, I want the "Love to Last"... So to speak.. :wub:

Thank you Verivus, I am trying different things, and the different protein per meal seems to spark more interest from my pup. A full mix, and he picks out what is in fashion and leaves some of the rest.. I think it might even be easier to run all one type.. Thank you for your response, I am coming around to the Vet guess that "14 week X 2 plus 10 pounds" is out the window on Raw... 

Kind regards from Oz


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Update:
The Breeder of my male "Wolf Caesar" brought his litter mate for the weekend. He was wider in the hips, longer in the snout and slightly more developed. While it could be the diet, it could also be the exercise as he has other dogs to play with hard. It could also just be chance or be just Genetics, but so far the Purist Raw diet is ahead. The lead may swap back and forth, I will report as noted..

Saw my new female pup yesterday, the mother is a strong Sable Police Trainers dog, and She is 48 kg and superfit at 8 y.o.. Father is the same, Defensive Attack Dog sort of 52 kg about 130 lbs, that is greatly respected in those circles. I put a deposit on what we call a bi-colour, Working Dog with Shutzhund background ancestors black with some gold highlights on legs and bum as there were no all black in the litter. I took the dog composition over the colour desires, as I was only lucky to get one of this bloodline. They are so strong, they are highly sought after.. 

We will continue the Study, as we both took female pups from a special Bloodline and will have two littermates of two matching Bloodlines each. I may use the kibble as a backup, or alternate meal once a week. Their Purist Diet littermate found a bucket of adult Nutro kibble, and went HOGWILD over it... I am inclined to think it is OK as an alternate meal or backup. Incidently Caesar had a dump today with Raw and Kibble, and now at 16 weeks seems to tolerate the mix. The dump was blackish Raw short sausage bits and one long brown log. He handled the mix just fine.

Will continue, hope it is a help, with two dogs of two bloodlines any consistances may be worth a little noting and interest.. Kind regards out "Dancing with Wolves" in Australia.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

*Well, Wolf Caesar broke 50 lbs at 18 weeks...* I hope it is true that the raw diet means slower growth, as I was hoping for a larger Dog than this growth rate indicates.. But I love him to death... :wub: Hoping to break the 100 lb mark.. We will wait and see.

*So far he amazes everyone that sees him*: At 18 weeks he Sits, lays down, stays, tries to herd, recalls very well, heels off leash, heel-stop-sit, knows spanish commands (spanish rare here for Australia) of OK it is good, leave it, here it is, Wolf Caesar is going well. *I credit the RAW diet for his smart and calm response that makes for easy and quick learning, he is only a bit hyper-active after being given a kibble meal. *

Here is my new puppy, his Breeding Partner hopefully, her Mom is a 110 lb Police Dog, Father is a 115 lb PPD Dog that has won some awards... Here she is at three weeks and I am in LOVE... :wub:










*Now the Breeder of Wolf Caesar, not only nominated me for this puppy (all sold before they were born and I had "Pick Bitch" of the litter), anyway She took this Sable shown on the right.. She is the purist Raw person for this Thread Topic, where I am Raw backed with kibble. She took this Sable Female for her own breeding program, all the same reasons.. Aren't dey cute cute cute :wub::wub: *

*This other female is the same bone size, biggest two of the litter, so we will continue with this long term study... In Your Best Interests...*











*Kind regards from the lone Ranger, in Australia....*


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, I am 4 hours drive out west in Australia, with a horse and my Big Rig Horse Float with my Pup Wolf Caesar visiting his Breeder. They have five GSDs and a litter on the way, two very old rescue none GSDs they have saved with the RAW diet, and to cap off this progress report here are the results of the two "Litter Mates" size and development at 5 1/2 Months (almost)...

Caesar has caught up with his littermate Ollie. Both are gorgeous. Now their are on a strict RAW meat diet, Ox heart, beef, chicken, lamb, pork, a big variety, and they are real believers. To see their dogs, you would be too. Their dogs are more full bodied than normal, with good meat muscle coverage on their ribs, not fat, just large. Caesar and Ollie are both lean as they should be, all mock fighting in a big six dog "Wolf Pack" having a blast. Here are the final conclusions and decisions on my part:

Conclusions: Hundreds of pups, all very healthy long lived dogs, they DO know what they are talking about...
1) Kibble makes early growth, probably too fast for proper joint development. Raw diet slows that down a little, and they do not have dysplasia problems. Vets don't like them, as they are not regular customers with all their dogs.. heh he..
2) Good grade of kibble, is still bad for them, the fillers, preservatives, and quality of ingredients and fillers shortens their lives. I am convinced of this. I have saved the life of my 10 y.o. GSD Alpha Male, Testimonial in the adult RAW/Barf section...
3) Raw diet is potentially slower development, (I think so) but stronger joints. Further it gives them healthy teeth and strong bones and bolsters their immune systems.
4) I will use kibble, the best I can get, Nutro chicken or lamb and rice, but only as a backup when on the road, or extreme convenience sake.. Very little...
5) The dogs odour on Raw is near nil. Doggy smell is from the kibble. My pup on RAW, smells like a baby, good on the nose.. AMAZING... Even my 10 y.o. Alpha Male, stinky dog, complaints from Staff when I took him to work (I am the Boss), that he made the office to doggy smelling? Now near odourless on the Raw diet... No more complaints...
6) Longer term if you shop, get to know a Butcher, find your sources, RAW may actually be cheaper than the high grade of kibble.. Certainly in the long run as it is going to really cut down on Vets Bills and in some cases Chemotherapy..

7) *And this is important,* their 20 years of Breeding experience shows that you do not have to do twice a day feeding. Bloat they talk about on this Forum is primarily from kibble, a dry blockage as it absorbs water. These People only feed once a day from about 4-5 months, and no bloat or any problems in 20 years. They flatly state it has never happened on the RAW meat diet.. :blush: *Boy am I glad of that as twice a day is a lot of work and clean up...*

In conclusion, the RAW diet seems to make a healthier more long lived dog, with a better immune system, and does away with the cancer problems a lot of dogs have from 8-12 years of age. The Kibble kills our friends... My surrogate children now that mine are grown and gone.. The RAW meat diet IS BETTER. I am a Believer... No doubts now...

Kind regards, out on the "Last Frontier" in Australia, with horses and GSDs 
"Dances with Wolves"


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Fello GSD Lovers :wub:

Well, with this empirical study, real time between littermates, there are some interesting conclusions I have drawn:

Here they are, indistinguishable at birth except Caesar (right below) had a broader muzzle and seemed bigger boned, picked up on by my Breeder Authority... Here they are at five months, in the 60 + pound range, maybe 65 lbs..



Now here is the truth to that saying about 49 day old pups "What you see at 49 days, is what you get" about features and size... Caesar on the right was a heavier build (hardly could see it) now at 5 months his legs are 1 cm more in circumfrance measure in two places, above the elbow and above the fetlock, more than Ollie (on the left)... Caesar is likely to be a chunkier larger frame dog than Ollie.. Caesar was "Pick Male" of the litter...

I am 95% raw, don't know what to do with the puppy chow, I guess I will save it for a rainy day special need..

Here is the "Pick Bitch" of the other Working Dog line... I can do a similar study as the Breeder of Caesar took the second pick.. But I am sold, RAW is the way to go, stonger joints with slower growth, and I am convinced they will live longer... Kind regards, lone Ranger in Oz....


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## Aliana (Jun 4, 2013)

*Lone Ranger*

Hi there

I find the study you did very interesting. I understand dogs on raw grow much slower than dogs on commercial food, but when fully grown generally have more muscle mass and stronger bone structure.
You mentioned in one of your posts that you got a puppy from a working breeder; the mother of the puppy weighing 48kg and the father 52kg. Does this breeder have a website? What is the kennel name? I would love to take a look at these dogs. Otherwise an email address or contact number will do. Do you know what line of Shepherds they are? Czech, DDR..? Thank you


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Aliana,
This is a retired Police Officer (Disabled) that only will have one more litter with her. It is all German and Czech names in the Pedigree Papers, but the line has been Coached by Police Handlers and Trainers and Breeders for the large boned and good Temperament for this line of larger Working Dog types. I cannot give his contact details for all the right reasons. Puppies were spoken for at birth, and the next litter will be the same. I was only lucky in being sponsored/ referred by one of the Breeders that coaches him. There were an even pair of larger bright eyed "Pick Bitches" I took the black with gold highlights, She took the Sable. This is a private Blood Line not available to the general Public, of big boned larger Working Dog sorts, and highly regarded and sought after. I cannot give personal details, sorry, except to say I was very lucky to get on the inside track by referral... My place, 30 acre horse property, and ten years with GSD's was figured as near perfect Owners situation...

GSD Lovers :wub:: Other interesting news in this Thread. I was just given the brother this thread was about!!! *My first pick of the males from the other Breeder, was a yellow golden wolf eye looking one with a longer snout: Ollie, "Wolf Ali" to me now as he was just given to me!* Long story short he was my pick, the Breeder steered me toward Caesar because she said he had larger bones, broader muzzle, and was more classic for Breeding. Anyway, I alway bonded with Wolf Ali when I visited. He was showing signs of becoming an Alpha Male, and their 50 kg Alpha Male's Alpha Bitch was giving him a very hard time.. They gave him to me, a $2000 gift.. !! :wild:

*What is weird is he picked me.* He has been with me three weeks, immediately took over my "Wolf Pack", and is only happy when by my side. He is not insecure, but when the others are romping around in the paddocks or the empty stallion yards, he will not go far before returning to my side.. :hug: He has picked me, and is only happy when he is with me. *First time a dog has so markedly picked me.*

The brothers, are about 38 kg, now 7 months old. They are the size of adult male Show Dogs, but growing more slowly due to the raw diet. They will be on the larger size for Working Dogs, probably break 100 lbs. Shaka, my Foundation Bitch is 15 weeks old now, and 18 kg! She has larger feet than them, and is larger at this age, as on my research more than a kg of weight per week and not fat, means likely over 100kg as an adult. *She is relatively lean, has a waist, now 15 weeks and 18 kg!! This is going to be a BIG GIRL...!*

Anyway, I have been out of contact for a few weeks, at the Pacific Coast Reining Horse Championships, and that is why you have not heard from me. Sorry.. But anyway, I won a Division, and this buckle for it.. Just letting you know why I have gone missing (in action) in the Outback..



*Here are the brothers, in a tug of war*, *Caesar and Ollie now named Wolf Ali on the right and left, and Shaka in the middle.* She is going to be a very Big Girl at this rate...



Kind regards from the lone Ranger, doing "Dances with Wolves" in Australia...
The Last Frontier..!!


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