# First session with an E-collar Trainer Today (3 HOURS)



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

So today was Zelda and my first session with the e-collar trainer.

I thought about e-collar for probably over half a year now? I looked it up, Lou Castle's method is what changed my mind on the e-collar debate. I bought the dogtra 1900ncp, but when it came down to it i didnt feel like i should slap it on and do it myself. I slapped it on myself, and my human family companions to find their working levels, but i didn't feel comfortable doing it to Zelda. So i wen't on a search AGAIN for e-collar trainer. Came back around to one, and talked to her on phone, e-mail, checked out her training style, asked other people about it (from here and people i know in person) and i decided to go for it. 

How it wen't:
Upon arriving, we entered her house with Zelda's muzzle on, Zelda first saw her and barked, i got her to calm down as we approached the couch, and she laid down next to me, the trainer came in, ignored her, gave her space, gave her the shoulder. And we talked, and wen't over her extensive information packet/history packet of Zelda with me. We also discussed training, and any questions. After going through that she sent us across her grassy lawn into a big parking lot across from her house. Where we walked slowly. Zelda was on my left, she came up to my right (without Zelda realizing) And she took over the leash, and began walking with Zelda. 
The trainer wanted to find her working level, and to be sure that Zelda "got it" before she totally gave it over to me. They wen't about 150 feet away from me, and she took Zelda's muzzle off and adjusted her e-collar a bit. And began again. She called me over so that i could do the leash heel part, while she did the remote, she told me when to turn, when to not and to tighten the leash. Communicating with her and giving her direction. 

Basically letting her know that she can turn the pressure off. Eventually i took over everything, and once my timing was good we moved on to the commands. OFF and COME. 

Off meant to not do whatever it is she is doing, can be used for treats, cats, jumping, etc.

And Come is obvious, but again, guiding her into me, and luring with a treat, as well as a nick or cont. if she was not coming into me, also being an exciting target to reach. At this point she was really tired. So she kept blowing me off, so we ended on a good note for that. 

She brought out her dog as distraction. And Zelda at first was paying attention and wanting to go to her dog, but at decently low levels i was able to guide her to heel with me and ignore the dog. 

It makes sense now, its all clear cut. I'm telling her what not to do and what to do. And she is in control of it. Any command i say comes with a nick, a low level nick at first, and she turns it off, as soon as she starts to get on the path to listening to it, if she goes off again i guide her back and stim her. And for good behavior, especially if not even guided or asked for, such as; ignoring a distraction or doing ab beautiful turn with our heeling, she gets rewarded with treats and praise. 

My biggest worry with e-collar training, is that i am going to do it wrong, and that she is going to become a neurotic mess or distrust me.
If this goes right, she should have a lot more confidence and actually have a better more trustworthy relationship with me.

I told the trainer my fears, my thoughts, and what some of my friends from work or a dog trainer friend (who uses on positive methods) thought of e-collar, and how that kind of sticks in your head. For the most part what she said reassured me, and i feel okay doing her method- it seems pretty close to Lou Castle. I know she wen't to UK to meet with trainers not too long ago, i know that Tyler Muto came here to meet with her for shared training and to learn from each other. I know she knows lots of different trainers, she did hear of Lou Castle methods before. 

So basically this first week is a constant micromanaging of Zelda. So, to be honest, not looking forward to it, but if it means great results in the long run, than totally worth it! 

I consented her taking a picture and putting it up on her facebook, this is what she said of Zelda, "Zelda came in to start her Perfect Pet Package today. Such a beautiful Shepherd who came in on muzzle and left a tired, relaxed friendly dog. We had a great time playing and training today. Zelda's a very fearful reactive dog but seeing her true colors today after lots of training goes to show that she needs a lot of information, guidance, patience and confidence boosting. Zelda reminds me of my board and train, Sadie. Both are great dogs once you earn their trust with so much love to offer the world. With the right training they'll be well on their way to sharing that love!"

Wish us luck! 

Any thoughts, ideas or comments? 
(i'm sure i left out plenty of info.)


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I looked at one today at menards...I'm just still too gun-shy of it  and it probably would work great for Roxy -- but I don't think I have anybody around here that would teach me to use it correctly -- we start classes again tomorrow night...maybe I will ask the trainers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh awesome! so glad you've found a trainer!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I trained Karlo to the ecollar it was for directional type training, not behavioral. It took about 6 weeks to work him on the collar ending in the proofing stage. 
I haven't been following Zelda's 'issues' so don't know the reason for your ecollar training, but want to say go slow, make sure the dog is understanding of the exercises as well as you. If you aren't clear on the timing of the correction or reasoning behind certain methods used, be sure to ask your trainer.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> I looked at one today at menards...I'm just still too gun-shy of it  and it probably would work great for Roxy -- but I don't think I have anybody around here that would teach me to use it correctly -- we start classes again tomorrow night...maybe I will ask the trainers.


Hey it could work well for her! Always worth a try to ask the trainers, or maybe they can direct you to someone they know to use it correctly. 



Jax08 said:


> oh awesome! so glad you've found a trainer!


Thanks Jax! I am very glad i did too. 



onyx'girl said:


> When I trained Karlo to the ecollar it was for directional type training, not behavioral. It took about 6 weeks to work him on the collar ending in the proofing stage.
> I haven't been following Zelda's 'issues' so don't know the reason for your ecollar training, but want to say go slow, make sure the dog is understanding of the exercises as well as you. If you aren't clear on the timing of the correction or reasoning behind certain methods used, be sure to ask your trainer.


Ya.. I always thought it should be slower than what we are doing. My trainer seems to believe that they get it really quickly. And i would agree. I only have to tap the nick once when i say come, ands he comes jogging along and sits right in front of me-without blowing me off, and she did this many times in row even during distraction at low such as sniffing ground or watching a car go by- when i did it just a hour ago. 
I kind of wish we could go slower. With OFF and quiet i want to go slower than what she was doing. I'm going to start with treats for off, so it can be a nice low level, and then work my way up to with the beagle, when she tries to boss her around, and then weeks from now cats. With the quiet, when she barking at people outside, i will use it. But she is to have her leash on her still this week, so i can guide her to what needs to be done. Basically setting them up for success. 
If it were me, i would go slower. But my trainer goes at a faster pace then what i would do, should i keep up with her or let her know i want to go slower with her? I dont know.. I want to make this work, and not keep butting what i always think into her training- and let this slide. Maybe she is right, and i am wrong. Or maybe i am right- and she is wrong. Or maybe both work, but each have different consequence? (good or bad)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It isn't so much as going slower, but making sure the training is fair and the dog understands. You are doing behavioral training, which often throws different scenarios into the mix. 

I'm helping someone right now with a reactive dog and we're doing more engagement obedience type methods to get the dogs confidence in the handler. We are using corrections if the dog is not doing what the handler asks obedience-wise, but not correcting for the reactivity. It is going well. 
Week three and we're now adding in distractions(we've had unexpected ones, which were fine) to proof her skills in the redirection and handling of situations. We worked with my male (neutral to other dogs)for a few sessions of heeling/obedience slowly closing the gap and handler is showing greater confidence in management. 

Proofing will be the random dogs or people we come upon at a local park. We'll stay on the fringe first, see how the dog reacts or whatever and definitely keep it short and sweet, end it on a positive. I like setting a strong foundation and not rush, just my opinion on working with any method. Fairness to the dog is always on my mind.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> It isn't so much as going slower, but making sure the training is fair and the dog understands. You are doing behavioral training, which often throws different scenarios into the mix.
> 
> I'm helping someone right now with a reactive dog and we're doing more engagement obedience type methods to get the dogs confidence in the handler. We are using corrections if the dog is not doing what the handler asks obedience-wise, but not correcting for the reactivity. It is going well.
> Week three and we're now adding in distractions(we've had unexpected ones, which were fine) to proof her skills in the redirection and handling of situations. We worked with my male (neutral to other dogs)for a few sessions of heeling/obedience slowly closing the gap and handler is showing greater confidence in management.
> ...


Right, true. I think the people and her dog today probably was us asking too much of Zelda. But what were doing sound very similar to what you're doing, Zelda is fear aggressive to strangers and she gets uncontrollable and crazy with cats, and bosses other smaller dogs around. Were basically trying to get her to understand both that she can turn the pressure off when she listens, and that she can trust me and when we do obedience she is thinking, not reacting. Because a lot of the time when they are reacting, they aren't thinking. When they do obedience it makes them have think, and gets them into a different state of mind than reacting. Basically she is supposed to do a loose walking behind or next to me, and focus on me or walking with me not with anything else. Not on the ground, not the person, the car, the dog, the birds. 
I really hope i am being fair to Zelda. I told her i was worried about that, and she said if i were doing anything that she thought was not or was wrong, she would have told me. She also said she will be able to tell if i was doing it wrong when we go back next week. I am also doing fun things with her like hand targeting and go find them. Bringing games into the obedience with flirt pole and what not. I just want to be a good dog mom to her! I love her so!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Once the dog has understanding, you can safely increase criteria or distraction. Some dogs move very quickly through training once they understand the concept. With that said, going slower isn't going to hurt anything as long as the dog is engaged with you and not bored. 

David Winners


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Once the dog has understanding, you can safely increase criteria or distraction. Some dogs move very quickly through training once they understand the concept. With that said, g*oing slower isn't going to hurt anything as long as the dog is engaged with you and not bored.*
> 
> David Winners


She is a very smart dog, so maybe she is getting it. It seemed like it to me when i wen't and did a session by ourselves. 

That is probably when she starts blowing me off, and also when she gets tired. Thats when i did one more easy one that she can succeed and end there, but i will try to end before any of that happens. lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book Control Unleashed has quite a few exercise that help with reactive behaviors. Redirecting before the dog goes into the 'non-thinking' zone is mostly what we focus on. Handler needs to be aware of the body language. Also handler needs to be relaxed and not tense when a situation may arise so the dog feels that energy/emotion. 
We use a tug as the dog I'm working with leaks drive with whining, put the energy in the tug first...and use it as a reward for obedience. Restrained recalls are always done, every session. High valuefood(smelly cheese) is used for that, and other things we are teaching. Tug is to cap the drive and engagement. She had been using an ecollar before she started working with me, results weren't what she wants.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Welcome to the dark side! 

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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> So today was Zelda and my first session with the e-collar trainer.
> 
> I thought about e-collar for probably over half a year now? I looked it up, Lou Castle's method is what changed my mind on the e-collar debate. I bought the dogtra 1900ncp, but when it came down to it i didnt feel like i should slap it on and do it myself. I slapped it on myself, and my human family companions to find their working levels, but i didn't feel comfortable doing it to Zelda. So i wen't on a search AGAIN for e-collar trainer. Came back around to one, and talked to her on phone, e-mail, checked out her training style, asked other people about it (from here and people i know in person) and i decided to go for it.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear it went well. I'm glad for you and Zelda. I'm confident it will lead to a happier Zelda and you in the end. No training advice here, just do exactly what your trainer tells you and don't be afraid to ask questions.

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so happy for YOU and Zelda! I'm happy that you have FINALLY found a trainer who can help you help zelda..it sounds like you will be fine with this trainer ! Keep us updated!!


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> The book Control Unleashed has quite a few exercise that help with reactive behaviors. *Redirecting before the dog goes into the 'non-thinking' zone is mostly what we focus on.* Handler needs to be aware of the body language. *Also handler needs to be relaxed and not tense when a situation may arise so the dog feels that energy/emotion. *
> We use a tug as the dog I'm working with leaks drive with whining, put the energy in the tug first...and use it as a reward for obedience. Restrained recalls are always done, every session. High valuefood(smelly cheese) is used for that, and other things we are teaching. Tug is to cap the drive and engagement. She had been using an ecollar before she started working with me, results weren't what she wants.


So do you also practice when they are over threshold? I would find it less stressful on dog, she says to stim for "dirty thoughts" as in looking at the cat intently instead of heeling by my side or things like that. So i guess that would count before it gets to a non thinking level. 
And i'm still working on me. It's too bad Zelda ended up with me. I got problems myself, but i think i make it pretty clear to her usually. And with time my energy will be better because i will feel like i know what im doing i think. Whereas right now, i am just worried i will do something wrong, bad timing, bad treat delivery, bad timing on direction, etc. It's a lot of new things for me too.. 




Gib_laut said:


> Welcome to the dark side!
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ain't a dark side unless you make it a darkside! 



jafo220 said:


> Glad to hear it went well. I'm glad for you and Zelda. I'm confident it will lead to a happier Zelda and you in the end. No training advice here, just do exactly what your trainer tells you and don't be afraid to ask questions.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks for the support Jafo!  



JakodaCD OA said:


> I am so happy for YOU and Zelda! I'm happy that you have FINALLY found a trainer who can help you help zelda..it sounds like you will be fine with this trainer ! Keep us updated!!


Thanks for all the help Jakoda!  Yes! Vermont lacks in a lot of things, thankfully there is one! Will do!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

VTGirlT said:


> So do you also practice when they are over threshold? I would find it less stressful on dog, she says to stim for "dirty thoughts" as in looking at the cat intently instead of heeling by my side or things like that. So i guess that would count before it gets to a non thinking level.
> And i'm still working on me. It's too bad Zelda ended up with me. I got problems myself, but i think i make it pretty clear to her usually. And with time my energy will be better because i will feel like i know what im doing i think. Whereas right now, i am just worried i will do something wrong, bad timing, bad treat delivery, bad timing on direction, etc. It's a lot of new things for me, too.


In the beginning stages of teaching, no, we try to keep the dog under threshold and teach the handler how to be proactive in reading the dogs triggers. And then we do add in distractions(small ones) but we do train on public property so distractions are part of the dogs world and we work with those. Dog is put into obedience mode when a 'threat' or whatever is impending. If dog breaks obedience to react to the 'threat' or life in general, meaningful correction is given. We really haven't had to give many and we have been surprised with dogs off leash while owner decides to jog(dogs wander all over the park, but they were neutral) a person came the other night to fly 3 very large kites with tails. Great training opportunity right there!) We're working on the handler more than the dog, she needs to gain confidence in her handling and control, which she is! Her boy is feeling it and it shows in his behaviors,focus, whining, and his self control. He's making great progress.
She previously had a GSD that ripped up a beagle so her personal issue is that the dog she now has may be the same aggression-wise...she had to overcome that experience and focus on the dog she now has.
I think you'll do fine, as long as you are reading your dog, know his threshold level and give appropriate well timed corrections.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> In the beginning stages of teaching, no, we try to keep the dog under threshold and teach the handler how to be proactive in reading the dogs triggers. And then we do add in distractions(small ones) but we do train on public property so distractions are part of the dogs world and we work with those. Dog is put into obedience mode when a 'threat' or whatever is impending. If dog breaks obedience to react to the 'threat' or life in general, meaningful correction is given. We really haven't had to give many and we have been surprised with dogs off leash while owner decides to jog(dogs wander all over the park, but they were neutral) a person came the other night to fly 3 very large kites with tails. Great training opportunity right there!) We're working on the handler more than the dog, she needs to gain confidence in her handling and control, which she is! Her boy is feeling it and it shows in his behaviors,focus, whining, and his self control. He's making great progress.
> She previously had a GSD that ripped up a beagle so her personal issue is that the dog she now has may be the same aggression-wise...she had to overcome that experience and focus on the dog she now has.
> *I think you'll do fine, as long as you are reading your dog, know his threshold level and give appropriate well timed corrections.*


Well thankfully i been pretty good at reading Zelda's triggers, staying below her threshold and knowing when she is about to go over it- for the most part. Some learning came from my mistakes. So thankfully even if she doesn't train that, at least i mostly have an understanding for her threshold! 

My question was.. In low level distraction for recall and walking nicely beside/or behind you, what are your and your clients stim levels usually at? (If they are 127 stim levels on collar) And then stim levels with medium distractions?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

VTGirlT said:


> My question was.. In low level distraction for recall and walking nicely beside/or behind you, what are your and your clients stim levels usually at? (If they are 127 stim levels on collar) And then stim levels with medium distractions?


We are not using the ecollar at this time. She used one previously with a trainer, her dog ramped up more, so she said he had to be stim'd at higher level(she didn't have a dogtra, so can't say what level was comparible). I don't really know the methods they used, so can't comment on why it wasn't working for them. She is currently training the dog to an invisible fence collar so I thought it would be best if we didn't use an ecoller right now for his reactivity training. We are now using tug for engagement, food for teaching and getting the obedience solid. In three weeks(getting together 2x's per week) he is really showing improvement! Relaxed and not whining, sees other dogs and will re-engage with his handler because those other dogs aren't a big deal to him. But we aren't yet in the proofing stage.
When I proofed my dog on the dogtra , we did focus on me with a high value distraction(chuckit launcher) as the exercise. The level for him went up to 67 for it to sink in that he must look to me and not that fun toy. 
Now I use it around 35 and it is for protection work exercises.
He's mature, knows the commands and if he chooses not do do what is asked gets a continuous at 35 level. I've haven't had to use it but a couple times in our past several sessions. He is very compliant and biddable. 
FWIW, I don't feel the stim until it is at level 18....what level do you feel it at?


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> So do you also practice when they are over threshold? I would find it less stressful on dog, she says to stim for "dirty thoughts" as in looking at the cat intently instead of heeling by my side or things like that. So i guess that would count before it gets to a non thinking level.
> And i'm still working on me. It's too bad Zelda ended up with me. I got problems myself, but i think i make it pretty clear to her usually. And with time my energy will be better because i will feel like i know what im doing i think. Whereas right now, i am just worried i will do something wrong, bad timing, bad treat delivery, bad timing on direction, etc. It's a lot of new things for me too..
> 
> 
> ...


What I do when the dog is past their threshold is correct and gently back off. Each threshold maybe different. Cruz has different thresholds like dog vs person. Person is much closer than another dog. 

In the end, I have learned it comes with time. The critical thing in my mind is consistent fair corrections. Consistency being the most important to me. Moving cars were a big problem for us in the beginning. The consistent correction for lunging and shear amount of cars we encountered sped up the results. He never lunges at cars anymore and rarely stares them down if ever anymore. It just takes time and reps with consistent fair correction. If you make a mistake, mental note it so it doesn't happen again and then reset and keep going. Chances are the amount of fair corrections will override the one mistake. It happens, just learn from it and move on. 

Above all, don't over think it. Just take it one lesson at a time. One command at a time until you're comfortable. 


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> We are not using the ecollar at this time. She used one previously with a trainer, her dog ramped up more, so she said he had to be stim'd at higher level(she didn't have a dogtra, so can't say what level was comparible). I don't really know the methods they used, so can't comment on why it wasn't working for them. She is currently training the dog to an invisible fence collar so I thought it would be best if we didn't use an ecoller right now for his reactivity training. We are now using tug for engagement, food for teaching and getting the obedience solid. In three weeks(getting together 2x's per week) he is really showing improvement! Relaxed and not whining,* sees other dogs and will re-engage with his handler **because those other dogs aren't a big deal to him.* But we aren't yet in the proofing stage.
> When I proofed my dog on the dogtra , we did focus on me with a high value distraction(chuckit launcher) as the exercise. The level for him went up to 67 for it to sink in that he must look to me and not that fun toy.
> Now I use it around 35 and it is for protection work exercises.
> He's mature, knows the commands and if he chooses not do do what is asked gets a continuous at 35 level. I've haven't had to use it but a couple times in our past several sessions. He is very compliant and biddable.
> FWIW, I don't feel the stim until it is at level 18....what level do you feel it at?


Well thats great you were able the owner was able to accomplish that with the dog.  Cheese, roast beef and hot dogs are always the Zelda's favorite, i really need to bring those back into the training with the collar. I am using wellness turkey jerky and some freeze dried liver treats, which she likes a lot. But nothing quite like the real stuff, which happens to get real nasty quick in the summer. I'm guessing with some higher value treats, there would be more willingness right away to listen..

I felt it at 13, not that it hurt, i just barely felt something, i also had it on the inside of my arm, when i put it on the outside, i couldn't feel it at 13. 

I went as high as i could until i decided it was too much, that was on nick too.. I want to do 127 on myself on nick. Just to see what it feels like. 



jafo220 said:


> What I do when the dog is past their threshold is correct and gently back off. Each threshold maybe different. Cruz has different thresholds like dog vs person. Person is much closer than another dog.
> 
> In the end, I have learned it comes with time. The critical thing in my mind is *consistent fair corrections.* Consistency being the most important to me. Moving cars were a big problem for us in the beginning. The consistent correction for lunging and shear amount of cars we encountered sped up the results. He never lunges at cars anymore and rarely stares them down if ever anymore. It just takes time and reps with consistent fair correction. If you make a mistake, mental note it so it doesn't happen again and then reset and keep going. Chances are the amount of fair corrections will override the one mistake. It happens, just learn from it and move on.
> 
> ...



I agree. That is why i am so worried, is that i will not be consistent, fair or have good timing. Because i'm new, and i wont get better until i keep doing it. But than Zelda has to be the one to pay for it.. 

I was thinking. IN general i dont mind her barking, as its an alert when people go by. I just want her to be quiet on command. Would it be too inconsistent or confusing to her to let her bark and than say quiet and nick, until she learned to be quiet when i say quiet? But i only do it when i have had enough? I feel like that would be too confusing, than if i did it every time she barked at people or dogs going by at the moment she starts to bark..
What is your policy for your dog on that?


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> I agree. That is why i am so worried, is that i will not be consistent, fair or have good timing. Because i'm new, and i wont get better until i keep doing it. But than Zelda has to be the one to pay for it..
> 
> I was thinking. IN general i dont mind her barking, as its an alert when people go by. I just want her to be quiet on command. Would it be too inconsistent or confusing to her to let her bark and than say quiet and nick, until she learned to be quiet when i say quiet? But i only do it when i have had enough? I feel like that would be too confusing, than if i did it every time she barked at people or dogs going by at the moment she starts to bark..
> What is your policy for your dog on that?


I generally don't get in the way of his barking as I'd rather he alert me and let people know he's around. If it's a situation where he is focusing and then barking at another dog, I've already corrected him for focusing on the other dog. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind him glancing over his surroundings, but if I see him "set" his focus on the other dog, he is corrected back to his loose leash walking or what ever we were engaged in at the time of the distraction. I try not to let it get to the barking stage. It happens at times as the distraction is too much, meaning the dog is either focusing on him also or they are real close proximity wise. I correct the lack of focus on me or if he is supposed to be in a loose leash walk. I really don't correct the barking itself. That's how I look at it. I think you mentioned it earlier in this thread about recognizing the cues before the behavior. Knowing your dog and how he handles situations after being through them before helps identify the cues. 

Keep in mind that I'm just talking here. This is my method. Your dog may have different thresholds and behaviors than my dog. You should really confer with your trainer so they can establish proper corrections at the right time and when to correct if necessary at all. In the case that you run into trouble, you can confer with them as to what's going on and they are right there to see the behavior and make corrections to the methods if necessary.

I'm just glad you are making progress. You're going about it the right way with a trainer.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Thanks Jafo, its definitely a big learning process- can't help but feel bad for Zelda that she is my first dog lol But i love her to death, and so far she isn't acting any different. Sometimes on a stim i do, her skin will twitch or she will scratch at it. But she hasn't ever "freaked out" or barked, yelped or anything. I personally haven't gone up to 30 yet, even with some distraction. 

The command my trainer would want me to use for if she were about ready to bark at a dog, or giving it "dirty looks" or "dirty thoughts", or at a cat, or at a squirrel, or before she is about to nudge the beagle to play with her very rudely non stop and barking at her and going at her when she goes inside and outside, or a dog who jumps, or is about to think about taking a treat is "OFF." She described as the replacement of leave it and no at the same time, basically to stop that current train of thought or agenda. So we been practicing that one with food, on a banana on the ground at the park and ride i took her, and than i did the flirt pole! She did marvelous. (She is crazy for flirt pole) Than i practiced in the house with the beagle, no for the most intense moments (like going in and out of doors and stairs), but just when the beagle is running around. Zelda will not stop bothering her, so i use the "Off" command, and she tries again. And it worked, i also incorporate treats, and Zelda never looks afraid or confused. She got what OFF meant with the treats well, than i built it up. Zelda is very smart dog thankfully. At least one of us has to be hahha
The other method for when she saw a dog and wanted to bark could be going into loose leash walking or heel, to do obedience and to get her thinking about the obedience rather than the dog. So that would work too for sure!  

Eventually i will use OFF for the cat thing, we shall see that how that goes.. I will probably start with easy things, such as the cats through the glass door, or a football field away and working the way up. That is the second biggest concern on our list. 

What i do like about this trainer. Is she is there life long, she said i can call, text, email, facebook message her ANY time. During or after training. She also holds this outing for the dogs who complete her training and we go down town. Play games, and also basically continue the training for free in a structured free class, and we can ask questions there. And she holds that 1-2 times a month. Perfect!  

Yeah so, thanks for all the support guys!! 

Ill try and keep you updated.. For the good or bad!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

The command I use is also "off". I think short decisive words are clearer to say and much clearer for the dog to understand. Much like "down" instead of "down and stay" or "lay down". Don't say those commands don't work, just don't know which word they are keying on if not both. Who knows? I always keep in mind that less is more. The more direct and decisive you can be with commands to me the fairer it is for the dog. Less confusion on whats expected.

Here are the commands I use. Down, sit, this way, heal, off and depending where we're at, either carpet or rug for his "place" command.

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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> The command I use is also "off". *I think short decisive words are clearer to say and much clearer for the dog to understand. Much like "down" instead of "down and stay" or "lay down".* Don't say those commands don't work, just don't know which word they are keying on if not both. Who knows? I always keep in mind that less is more. The more direct and decisive you can be with commands to me the fairer it is for the dog. Less confusion on whats expected.
> 
> Here are the commands I use. Down, sit, this way, heal, off and depending where we're at, either carpet or rug for his "place" command.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have always wondered that myself.. I always taught Zelda to sit and wait or down and wait. But it does make more sense even to me, that if you say down or sit, they should wait there anyways, until release command. Otherwise sit and down just mean for the period until the dog thinks they are ready to go, like say you ask them to sit before going outside, if you taught them sit and wait and didn't say wait, as soon as you open the door that's where the running out the door right away happens. Where as you teach either wait or just sit and release on command. I guess either work. But your right, less is best! 

A lot of those commands are what my trainer teaches, she actually gave me a sheet of all the commands we will use.

I was thinking, why not just use OFF for when she starts barking to dogs/ people walking by the house, instead of quiet? Wouldn't that be the same basically? Because OFF is leave it and NO at the same time. I think it makes more sense. What you think?

This is the list she gave me: 

*Lets Go*- Loose lead walking. Your dog should walk nicely at your side and should not pull on the leash. _( I use This Way instead!)
_
*Heel*= Walk with your dog on your left side. You should always enforce consistent positioning with your dog's head next to your left leg.

*Come*= Call your dog to you. Dog should be close enough to touch. _(For this one Zelda has already been taught to come and sit in front of me to come, her come just wasn't ever really reliable, it was when she felt like it, and even when i had roast beef reward there could be something more important in the grass over where she is at.. lol) _

*Sit*= Dog sits with butt on ground, head high, legs square.

*Down*= Dog lies down with belly touching ground or floor.

*Place*= Send your dog to their place. Dog must be on place board or mat, all four paws on it, unless laying down in which case paws may extend off. _(I was thinking for this one, what about when i DONT have a place mat, blanket or anything, could i still use Place command?) 
_
*Wait*= Dog will not move forward past threshold- does not mean dog has to sit or down. Just may not move past boundary. 

*Off*= Used instead of NO- Get away from something, or get off of something. The dog should move its mouth, feet, or intentions.

*Out*= Dog drops item in his mouth.

*Kennel*= Dog goes in kennel.

*Quiet*= Used when dog is barking or whining.

*Break*= Release your dog from his/her given command- this is the only time the button is not pressed.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> I have always wondered that myself.. I always taught Zelda to sit and wait or down and wait. But it does make more sense even to me, that if you say down or sit, they should wait there anyways, until release command. Otherwise sit and down just mean for the period until the dog thinks they are ready to go, like say you ask them to sit before going outside, if you taught them sit and wait and didn't say wait, as soon as you open the door that's where the running out the door right away happens. Where as you teach either wait or just sit and release on command. I guess either work. But your right, less is best!
> 
> A lot of those commands are what my trainer teaches, she actually gave me a sheet of all the commands we will use.
> 
> ...


I forgot about the "wait" command. I guess you could say we use it in the same way. It was taught to us by our last trainer as a command for like answering someone at the front door. Our house is tri-level so we have him "wait" on the first landing until released.

Out, kennel ourselves. Of course when you get a bite of turkey hotdog to kennel, that is pretty much a slam dunk command for us. We're bad about spoiling. 

We also do the come command exactly the same way you do it. The come command was pretty easy for Cruz, but he was also one that just did what he wanted when he wanted. No more though. Next time you go walking and your walking loose leash, try something. Give her a "let's go" and then a second or two later a "come" command. Do that several times through your walk. Make sure she does it correctly each time. After awhile, just stop walking. Don't say anything and she if she automatically comes back to you. I practice this with Cruz on every walk. Especially when he gets amped up and wants to pull a little. I just stop walking and if he doesn't come right back to me, then I command a "come". Usually he will come back without me saying anything about 98% of the time. This comes in handy when crossing streets. I will stop, he comes back to me and then I make him sit before every crossing. That was a couple months ago. Now when we come to a crossing, he slows down and stops on his own until I release him to continue. He just started doing it all on his own. He must have learned it through all the times we crossed streets and realizes we stop before crossing. But again, you have to be consistent. You have to do it the same every time. Another thing about just stopping is it teaches the dog a little leash tension recognition. He also recognizes this now too. Before when the leash tightened, he got a stim and "this way" command. It backed him off. He's about 70% now with his leash tension recognition. He gets better by the week. I am aiming to not have to stim him at all and the leash tension lets him know he is too far out.

"Off" is what I use for any negative behavior, barking (at times) or a stare down are just some. But an off could be used for a lot of different negative behaviors. It's a good general use command. I don't even say no anymore. It's "off", "this way", "heel" or another command. You can combo those also, like make the correction with and "off" then "heel", "sit" "down" or what ever. I use the combo often. In my mind it let's them know, you're still in a heel or sit or down and focus on that not the other. 

Others may disagree, but it's what I've had success with, with Cruz.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

VTGirlT said:


> I felt it at 13, not that it hurt, i just barely felt something, i also had it on the inside of my arm, when i put it on the outside, i couldn't feel it at 13.
> 
> I went as high as i could until i decided it was too much, that was on nick too.. I want to do 127 on myself on nick. Just to see what it feels like.



Don't have much to offer but I've stimmed myself at 127 and it definitely is an uncomfortable shock. Nothing extremely painful though. The highest I've ever had to use on my dog was the upper 50s when he was really in drive. His normal working level is around 35. 





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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> I forgot about the "wait" command. I guess you could say we use it in the same way. It was taught to us by our last trainer as a command for like answering someone at the front door. Our house is tri-level so we have him "wait" on the first landing until released.
> 
> Out, kennel ourselves. Of course when you get a bite of turkey hotdog to kennel, that is pretty much a slam dunk command for us. We're bad about spoiling.
> 
> ...


Oh hm i will have to look into that technique, sounds like it really has them keep an eye on your movements, when you stop and what not, sounds like a safe thing for them to do too. I use to make her sit at every cross walk, but there are so many and im not consistent and so i just stopped. But i will have to see what i can do, because having her come to me when i stop is good, or just keeping an eye on me and sitting when i stop works too lol Something safe!



gsdlover91 said:


> Don't have much to offer but I've stimmed myself at 127 and it definitely is an uncomfortable shock. Nothing extremely painful though. The highest I've ever had to use on my dog was the upper 50s when he was really in drive. _His normal working level is around 35.
> _Sent from Petguide.com Free App


*Do you do any protection work or anything? Zelda's varies grately based on the threshold and whats going on around her, or what it is.. She blew me off for her normal working level, so i went up to 30 which worked. So i been trying to stay between 20-30. I dont know if thats normal or not, but i get good response, and she isn't in pain either when i do it. She scratches at her self, or moves her head to where the prongs are, or her neck with twitch.. Nothing that is horrible, and i incorporate treats. Which i think is another great tool to use with training. *

Thanks again guys!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

It kind of breaks up the routine and makes things interesting for the dog while they learn something new at the same time. Walks can get boring for a dog. I mess with Cruz and try to keep him guessing. He likes the mental challenge and I think he gets kind of a self reward when he does it correctly. I still do turnarounds every so often. 

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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

*Update: For August 15, Training Session Number 2!*

So yesterday we met again at her house. Zelda was completely fine with her, even after a two week period went by, which was VERY odd for Zelda. She usually goes back into her barking and has to reconnect with the person before trusting again. I think the trainer just has very good communication through body language and is very good with dogs not making herself look like a threat. 

She said she could tell i been working with Zelda. Zelda walked great with me, she said she is 150% sure that Zelda understands how to turn the pressure off on the e-collar, because i asked her to be sure. 

We are going to be using the sit and down as commands without a wait, and she is to wait until i release her from those cues. Because i taught her to sit and wait, and down and wait. Without even thinking about just having them sit and down and waiting until release. We practiced heel, which Zelda was pretty much doing when i say this way anyways, so that was pretty easy, except instead of turning around, and saying "this way!" with a tap, until she is on the path of doing what i want- i just tug back on the leash and say "heel" with a tapping until she is in the heel position. So it is a bit different in that way.

She does want me to do quiet i guess, even though i had discussed during the week about how i prefer to just say OFF for that, but i will go with what she thinks for now, since i dont think its too big of a deal. Basically for quiet, you say quiet with a tap and keeping tapping until the second she is quiet and then you release the pressure of the collar. And _can_ continue to say quiet for every tap. 

She taught me how to tap for sit. 

We also learned to wait at the door, and to not rush, which i am still trying to implement here at home! It went bad once though, i had her waiting at the door and this person was coming, i was hoping she would wait instead she rushed the door and ran at him barking. The trainer asked why. I said i was hoping she would wait, and that it was really dumb of me. The trainer said that she sees it a lot with the people, kind of seeing the circumstance play itself out, instead of taking the opportunity to use it as a training. She said i could have reinforced the wait, wait and tap, dirty thoughts- i could have said OFF and tap, i could have made her sit or down. Anything that would keep her occupied. So i really failed in that regard.. And its quite unlike me to do this too, im really into being very cautious around strangers and Zelda. So i felt pretty dumb..

The biggest thing that we learned and one of the most important was *place* yesterday. Basically for introduction you say place with a tap as soon as her two front paws touch the place (has to be something that is off the floor even a thick dog bed works or a dog bed off of the floor completely, which i hope to get since its something that we will need for a lot of things) and tap until all four are on, and then you say the release command, which is OK! for us, and lead her off with the leash. This is all letting her know exactly what i want, not making her guess work. I did that quite a few times. Than we did distractions, including treats, a ball thrown on the floor, me crouching down a yard away from the place, etc. and she did great. I rewarded her only for perfect places. Than, with the leash on still, i kept about 6 foot distance from her when she was on place. And she got out the flirt pole, personally i think she went a little fast. Because the flirt pole is one of Zeldas favorite things. And she went off quite a bit at first so i would stim her and guide her back. Eventually my trainer told me to just tell her place while stim, since my trainer believed she fully understood what it meant. And it seemed she did. We were on really low stims. I dont think we went over 18.. I know for most of it we stayed on 14! (using the dogtra 1900) Which is great. 
The last thing we did was she put a leash in the door, to secure her, the place bed was right up against it. Zelda still could still fully get off in three different directions of the place. And she did when she saw someone go by the house, the trainer actually took the remote for this to be sure the timing was perfect, after distractions with that and Zelda being on the place still and being guided back on with pressure and me sometimes helping,etc. The trainer asked her bf, whom Zelda never seen to come into the room. And he ignored her and stayed a decent distance, no reaction from Zelda, she didn't take her eyes off of him.  This to me was the most important one, my trainer also noted Zelda was using her nose to smell him from that distance which was great, i gave Zelda treats and it was all great. I do notice at some point with people, Zelda will sniff them from a distance. She also is very into smelling them from up close. Very happy with this, as i can really use this at home with people who come into the house, once i am sure she is 110% sure of the place command. She said t*he most important part of this, is i have to be her spokesperson*, tell people to leave her alone, dont look at her, etc. I can really start to do the counterconditioning this way to strangers! Implement the training i been taught from other trainers with this. Let her use her brain instead of her reactions from habit and fear. 
Eventually she wants Zelda to be calm on the bed, and even be able to be in place for a hour, she said the dogs can sit, down, stand, turn around, etc on place they just have to be on there. She said she wouldnt ask a dog to down stay for a hour, but that the place is where they should learn to be calm. When she took her little lab mix out, thats when Zelda went off the bed and barked, Zelda is good with dogs, she just is very rambunctious, gets excited, and doesnt know how to contain her emotions! So i had to guide her back into place for this quite a few times, because i knew it was too much for her. Zelda clearly got jealous, because when the trainer told me to ask her dog to come to me for treats and attention Zelda got very barky and wanted to get off place really bad. But eventually she was able to stay on place, even with this distraction. 
She noted how she thought Zelda was super smart!
Her bf asked me if she was mixed, i said nope, she is a long haired GSD. He said he didnt think she looked like one.. LOL! Because clearly you know all GSD's are the classic black and tan. Anything else is not a GSD..  There are no white, no sable, black, long haired, livers, etc. Those are all mixes of course.  
She blew off the trainer a few times before we brought in the person and dog as distraction. Just with the person walking right outside the window and door where Zelda's place was and sniffing things around the place. So i would have to guide her back. But Zelda caught on pretty well. She said when i do guide her back, to try not to have to do this, but if i have to, dont give her any attention. 

I'm current babysitting a dog since friday night until tuesday night. And this dog is very nervous and quite a handful, its kind of a favor for a friend. So practicing anything with Zelda is difficult except the OFF and come for now. But we will live!

This is the main update, i think i got everything, but im sure i left out plenty!


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Okay the big baby, with low pain tolerance aka ME, tried the dogtra 1900 on herself on the highest level of 127, and it really isn't that bad on nick- no reaction  Its more of an odd sensation that creates discomfort.. which is similar to pain i guess. 

I first tried it on my brother, he wanted me to. Lol 

Not that i will ever have to use it on Zelda, but at least i know what the highest level feels like, and well, it ain't no electric cow fence!


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks VTGirlT, this is a solid example of when the correct use of the E-collar can be effective and as useful as any other tool or method. I have used one the same way for years and find them to one of the best ways to redirect the dogs attention back on me and proofing specific commands. I also use it when taking walks with 2 of my dogs. I call it my infinity leash and this allows them to roam within eye distance but I can get their attention if they decide that their not in the mood to listen, distracted by some other animal or heading for possible trouble. I live in a rural area with lots of land and my male GSD will sometimes take a walk about, which also allows my to push the beeping feature and a loud whistle to get him back. If Too much time has past I then give him a nick and that gets him back every time. To me there is a lot of comfort in having the collar on in my situation. Again very nice to see an example of how safe an E-collar can be and the benefits of using them.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

None of this can not be accomplished with out the e collar . Too bad . Any form of negative training is crap in my view.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> None of this can not be accomplished with out the e collar . Too bad . Any form of negative training is crap in my view.





> *Should the dog fight the correction more than a set number of times* , the session is simply over It gets repeated later on until we both get it down.


Just between you and I there, canya, but this was you on another thread. There's just a little bit of inconsistency there Mr. doit.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Witz said:


> Thanks VTGirlT, this is a solid example of when the correct use of the *E-collar can be effective and as useful as any other tool or method.* I have used one the same way for years and find them to one of the best ways to redirect the dogs attention back on me and proofing specific commands. I also use it when taking walks with 2 of my dogs. I call it my infinity leash and this allows them to roam within eye distance but I can get their attention if they decide that their not in the mood to listen, distracted by some other animal or heading for possible trouble. I live in a rural area with lots of land and my male GSD will sometimes take a walk about, which also allows my to push the beeping feature and a loud whistle to get him back. If Too much time has past I then give him a nick and that gets him back every time. *To me there is a lot of comfort in having the collar on in my situation. *Again very nice to see an example of how safe an E-collar can be and the benefits of using them.


Wow, thanks so much for nice feedback!  



canyadoit said:


> None of this can not be accomplished with out the e collar . Too bad . Any form of negative training is crap in my view.


I use to feel the same way Canyadoit, so i understand where you are coming from. 
But i do believe most people use tools of training. I have yet to find a trainer who doesn't use a tool of some sort. Although i would LOVE to see it! No treats, no collar, no clicker, no e-collar, nothing! Just the dog and your voice, but while keeping the relationship sound, the dog safe, confident, and not getting hurt and learning things while doing them consistently with real world distractions and situations. That would be a sight to see! Especially for things like aggression reactive, high prey drive, protection work , etc. dogs.
This type of tool has not hurt Zelda's and my relationship (in fact, if i dare say so, i think it only made it stronger), it does not hurt her, she is quite safe and healthy. So i find it hard to think that people have a problem with it at all- when people use it correctly. 

But thats just my view on what you view, "crap training."


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

*Update Third Session*

So today was a bit of a going over any questions, suggestions for all the things i learned so far. And the last thing was the down command with the pressure of the e-collar.

The first thing we did was she got a dog bed out (one that is raised above the ground) and while there were many people jogging by, we worked on the place command. Zelda did not mind them from that distance. In fact she laid down and had her back towards them at some point. She did blow me off a few times in which the trainer asked if we were working on the place command. I said yes, but inside.. 

So clearly we still have lots of work to go..

Her critique in general was that i need to motivate her more; whether its the pressure of the e-collar or and using treats, or my attention. 

I need to do more micromanaging on the heel. 

Also after she knows a command i need to stop "holding her hand" and just use the pressure of the collar. Also that with new things i need to go at very low stims 8-14 and really engage with helping her until i KNOW she gets it. 

I have two more sessions with her!

Lastly the biggest thing. 
She told me what she is doing with a dog with similar like behavior of Zelda. What she is doing with the board and train dog, she wants me to do with Zelda. To not feed her kibble, and only let strangers feed her kibble. She said some dogs will go 2-3 days without eating. But eventually will be excited to see the strangers, because she knows that the strangers mean she gets to eat. She said to no go up on value, and to not give in.
When doing this the strangers are supposed to stand maybe a foot away from where the possible end of leash, Zelda's nose, body can touch. No looking, talking, no eye contact. With the strangers body sideways. You throw a piece of kibble on the ground and than pick up that same piece of kibble and throw it at the ground near the dog. If the dog isn't eating them after a few throws than you just stop and try again later. Eventually, and it does work, because i did it for the dog she is doing board and train, the dog will be happy to see the strangers.
After the step of the stranger using the side of the body. They face the dog, not looking. Do the same thing, throw kibble on ground in front of themselves, pick it up and than toss it to the dog. (now you drop the kibble on the ground in front of yourself, to let the dog know that you are using food basically) After this step than you face dog while looking at the dog, do the same thing with the kibble dropped in front of you and than tossed to ground in front of dog. 
Second to last step is when you put your hand out and up, and than toss a treat. (Which is where the board and train dog was at, after 2 weeks) 
Last step, is to touch dog and treat with kibble. 
She said it typically will take 2 weeks or more. Thats if you are doing it with different strangers everyday for all meals. Which i dont think is possible for us.. Because i just dont know enough people who would/could do this for me. So that i am at a loss.. 
And this way wont work, unless you do it all the time. The whole point is that it only comes from strangers. 

So yes. Lots of work for us to do. And ideas for us to do instead of trainers, because i just dont have the resource of people. 

Any ideas yourself? I was thinking of just doing the classic counter conditioning. 

Although i do see her way of working, and maybe you guys have ideas of how to get lots strangers?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't like involving strangers into my training first of all. Second, as ME says, what happens when one day a stranger doesn't have food and she's looking at them expecting it?
I like feeding the dog myself when I see whatever triggers.
I don't want my dog looking for strangers. I want him to see strangers and either ignore them or look to me for directions


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I have been taking Dex by our local fireman stations everyday to get him as much men socialization as possible. They enjoy it and so is Dex. Check with yours and see if they will help out.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

^ I like that Maria -- I may give ours a call. I wonder if the police or sheriff station would allow that too...just to kind of sit off a little bit and "watch"


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I don't like involving strangers into my training first of all. Second, as ME says, what happens when one day a stranger doesn't have food and she's looking at them expecting it?
> I like feeding the dog myself when I see whatever triggers.
> I don't want my dog looking for strangers. I want him to see strangers and either ignore them or look to me for directions


I dont really like to either.. Its the liability reason. And my trainer and i both agree people are a lot harder to "train." Example: you tell them not to make eye contact, and they do anyways, etc. But i do want to try and make this work.
So i actually messaged her and told her. So im going to try a stranger at my house 1-2 a week and just do really high value treats, same technique. See where we get i guess.. Ill do strangers, but neighbors i like and people i know.




Msmaria said:


> I have been taking Dex by our local fireman stations everyday to get him as much men socialization as possible. They enjoy it and so is Dex. Check with yours and see if they will help out.


Oh thats another idea Msmaria, we could at least observe from far a away for a while or something. Or make it the second to last step in the FA training. 
Thanks for the idea! Would be a good excuse to visit the firemen at the station anyways


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