# 10 month old female -starting agitation work & handler aggression?



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

So I've started schutzhund training with my girl. She seems to be doing fairly well, I get compliments on her from a lot of people that she's doing really well for only trying the protection a couple of times. 

I'm having a little issue though. I took her to a workshop yesterday, and while everyone said she did great, during the protection phase, after the outed the training tug, when I went to move it she nipped my hand. Ok, dumb me, should have kicked it back to the helper. Next time I kicked it back with my far leg and she nipped my near leg. She drew a little blood on my hand, and I have a small bruise on my leg, nothing too bad, but she did connect.

This seems to be an issue for her, she will sometimes bite at the harness in frustration and even when I was doing restrained recalls at flyball, she'd mouth the person restraining her. Her sire has a habit of sometimes tring to take a dirty bite/nip at the helper, I'm wondering if it's genetic? :crazy:

She seems to get overstimulated and/or frustrated during agitation work and this is her reaction. She's otherwise very friendly and sucky with people, but when she gets 'in the zone' she can be a bit reactive (I guess this is to be expected?)

Nobody seemed to be too worried about it, I wanted to get your opinons on what I should do? Ignore it, correct her, or do something differently? I just gave her a verbal "AHH!" as I wasn't sure what/if I should do anything?

:help:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

They are right - this is not handler aggression. Handler aggression is totally different and is from a dog who is not happy with the treatment given him by his handler.

This is just drive leaking and frustration. It is pretty normal in young high drive dogs...both Kyra and Kougar got me so often when they were young, it was not normal for me to go home from training without a wound. Neither were handler aggressive. Many people mix this up. One seminar I was at with Ivan Balabanov, I got my thumb sliced open pretty good while holding a tug...he immediately stopped and said put the dog up - they draw blood, game over. I don't know that that would matter - but that was his take on it.

Lee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> They are right - this is not handler aggression. Handler aggression is totally different and is from a dog who is not happy with the treatment given him by his handler.
> 
> This is just drive leaking and frustration. It is pretty normal in young high drive dogs...both Kyra and Kougar got me so often when they were young, it was not normal for me to go home from training without a wound. Neither were handler aggressive. Many people mix this up. One seminar I was at with Ivan Balabanov, I got my thumb sliced open pretty good while holding a tug...he immediately stopped and said put the dog up - they draw blood, game over. I don't know that that would matter - but that was his take on it.
> 
> Lee


+1. That's why I don't kick the sleeves away... Tired of getting bit. Katya nails me ever so often out of pure frustration, and we halt and have a talk whenever tat happens. Last year she was refusing to run blind 5 (she had an IPO1, just being a pain). After 4-5 failed attempts she finally went round and I praised big, but when she came back I pointed and sent her again... She let out her frustrated bark and nailed my hand lol. 

Good news is you have lots of drive to work with. Bad news is you must be careful when she is in drive, and proactively manage and control her leakage


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok thanks so much! Oddly, I feel better. lol

I am just not sure how to get the tug back to the helper, and manage her 'leakage'.

Remember when you guys were newbies? lol I feel like a fish out of water!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would put her in a platz, command the out, pick up the sleeve and carry it over to the helper....it takes away conflict of outing and transitions the dogs drive.
If she doesn't yet out, then lift her off her feet by her collar and when she outs, drag her back away from the tug. 
Or put her up for awhile(no protection) while she matures a bit. Then the obedience will be stronger when you get back into it. If she has the *it* factor it won't matter when you begin again, *it* will still be in there!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not worry. Definitely not handler aggression. When she drops the tug/sleeve, just back her away from it and let the helper get it (or do whatever the helper tells you).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm also on the not handler aggression band wagon. Just a dog high in drive. Like others have said either hold dog up while you kick the sleeve/tug back or pull the dog back off and let the helper get it. I like the second option. I like to make the dog challenge me for the toy. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I wouldn't allow the re-directed bites. Not handler aggression at all (you'll KNOW that when you see it, LOL!). However, NO TEETH on the handler... on or off the field. They can be in drive, they can even 'think about it', but it's an absolute no-no. If you just ignore it, it could become a habit. So even when the dog is older and has more frustration tolerance... but the helper waits longer to let that frustration build, you can get nailed again. Do that at trial.... and it's not going to be blown off. (This is what I've been told) I've had a lot of re-directed puppy bites from Grim when he plays with his pug. No more. I am drilling it through is skull that biting me is just NEVER going to be allowed, no matter what the reason. So I guess handle it however you're comfortable with. A re-directed bite to me on the field just won't be tolerated. Luckily, we haven't come across that yet. I was also told to NOT pick up the sleeve. This may only pertain to my 'type' of dog, I don't know. I did it last time out of ignorance. I won't do it again. You can tighten up your line to bring your dog to your left and out to kick with your right leg so the dog can't get to your leg. If it were a younger pup, I'd maybe not be so concerned. However, you have a young adult. Time to make the rules black and white.

I don't know as 'dirty biting' could be genetic. High drive, low frustration can be. A good TD can 'fix' a dirty biter. One is currently being worked at my club...who wasn't a dirty biter until he flattened a couple decoys at last trial. Suddenly, he's got a big head! I think true handler aggression is more genetic. It doesn't always have to be from unfair corrections. It's all about what the dog thinks is 'unfair' anyway. I missed that your dog is biting the near leg, not the one that you're kicking with. Time for a 'come to Jesus' talk with the dog. I'm surprised that your TD didn't see an issue with this.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

If I don't bleed during training with my pup.... she's sick or something's wrong. lol

In all seriousness, that's not handler aggression. Like Lee said, that's her drive leaking and her frustration. Storm does the same at times. It used to be consistent, but now I've learned some ways around her.

Pack bandaids, Betadine/peroxide/alcohol (or whatever you like to use for wounds), and neosporin when you train. In the back of my Jeep, I have a whole medical care kit for myself and the dogs. Never know when someone may get injured. 

Some trainers are very against that on the field.... while others say push past it... train, focus, and redirect. Depends who you're working with. I've seen handlers just push through it, and their dogs didn't do that again once they matured and learned control. 

Duke did it for a little while, but when we put OB in with protection... that all stopped. Now he's very controlled, and very easy to work with. I put him in a down, and kick the sleeve back. No issues.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I guess it depends on the dog, too. If Grim were a different type of dog, I wouldn't be so dead set against it. When you combine re-directed bites with a dog that could be handler aggressive, then I think it has to be clear. The dog may mature out of it, or think it's a great way to get out frustration and it's OK. I don't want to play with that. I'd also rather clear that issue young to avoid a fight with a 2-3 year old later. We'll see what I do if it happens on the field. I don't think I'd let it fly, though. I also wonder if it matters what 'drive' the dog's in. No doubt, a re-directed bite in defense is going to be much nastier than in prey.

I agree 100% that the obedience on the field is important and can solve a lot of issues, though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jag said:


> I agree 100% that the obedience on the field is important and can solve a lot of issues, though.


 And this is why it is good to let the dog mature some before doing protection....get the obedience stronger & the dog to learn self control.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

This post sounds oddly familiar. 

When Zefra was young she did the same thing, now she is able to cap herself and I am walking away from training less bruised and bleeding...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> And this is why it is good to let the dog mature some before doing protection....get the obedience stronger & the dog to learn self control.


I'm curious, here, because I haven't been in this position. If you have a dog that's doing this how do you teach it not to do it if you're avoiding the situation? Is there some other way to teach control? I know you're not for putting a dog that's not an adult on the field. I can appreciate your POV. I'm just wondering what I'm missing if you go the other route (not doing protection). What if it were an adult dog doing this??


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> This post sounds oddly familiar.
> 
> When Zefra was young she did the same thing, now she is able to cap herself and I am walking away from training less bruised and bleeding...


Did you stop protection training with her until she was an adult? Or how did you handle it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I'm curious, here, because I haven't been in this position. If you have a dog that's doing this how do you teach it not to do it if you're avoiding the situation? Is there some other way to teach control? I know you're not for putting a dog that's not an adult on the field. I can appreciate your POV. I'm just wondering what I'm missing if you go the other route (not doing protection). What if it were an adult dog doing this??


No, it isn't that I'm not for a young dog on the field, but it depends ON the dog. If a pup is showing some behaviors that are difficult to manage, there is no reason to keep playing bites on the field. Give the pup some growing time and then bring back out when there is more brain. It won't hurt during that break~ the break will be more beneficial.
Young dogs can't always channel their drives or transition correctly. 
My dog was really balanced and we worked him in protection from the time he was a baby. It didn't hurt him, but had I known better, I would have let him mature some....because he has it genetically and starting early didn't really do him a favor. Though if I were in a rush to title, then starting young....still isn't really necessary! 
If a young dog is redirecting or naturally civil, that would be the time I'd put he/she up from bitework for some mental growth/obedience foundation.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> No, it isn't that I'm not for a young dog on the field, but it depends ON the dog. If a pup is showing some behaviors that are difficult to manage, there is no reason to keep playing bites on the field. Give the pup some growing time and then bring back out when there is more brain. It won't hurt during that break~ the break will be more beneficial.
> Young dogs can't always channel their drives or transition correctly.
> My dog was really balanced and we worked him in protection from the time he was a baby. It didn't hurt him, but had I known better, I would have let him mature some....because he has it genetically and starting early didn't really do him a favor. Though if I were in a rush to title, then starting young....still isn't really necessary!
> If a young dog is redirecting or naturally civil, that would be the time I'd put he/she up from bitework for some mental growth/obedience foundation.


OK, but how do you teach the control, then? I'm just wondering if I'm missing something here. Also, what if it's an adult dog... or the same dog when it's an adult doing this? If you're trying to teach the obedience needed during protection, I'm wondering how you'd do that without the protection part. I'm really confused here. I'm sure I'm not understanding you right, but it sounds to me like you're saying instead of working out the problems when they come up, to just not do that work until the dog's older. The confusion for me is, what happens if you see those behaviors still after the dog's a little older? Don't you have to correct them at some point?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Obedience will teach the dog control...build drive/ cap drive.
Tease the dog up, ask for a position, mark it and reward. Eventually the dog will see that waiting or conforming will bring the reward, it isn't the dogs option to just go for it(redirected bite)

The training I've been doing is building enthusiam/effort and I make my dog drive into me for the reward, I don't just feed/reward him at the position. He needs to work for the reward after I mark it. 
Lately during protection training, Karlo will take a dirty bump/bite when I pick him up in the blind. Of course I had to correct him, so three collar pops and repeating several times in that session before he was rewarded fixed it. We haven't been able to train consistently for the past 6 weeks, so when protection comes around Karlo is ramped up big time.
I correct often, because my dog knows better. But for a young dog that has no clue about this game needs some other foundation set before you can expect conformation to the rules. Don't expect what the dog can't mentally give you. That would be an unfair correction.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That makes more sense to me. Thank you for explaining!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jag said:


> Did you stop protection training with her until she was an adult? Or how did you handle it?


No, I did not. We continued with all three phases.

Although, we started asking for more calmness and obedience earlier on. She would come out to the field in a frenzy, ready to take on everyone (see vid and listen to comments at the very beginning: 



 ).

What we did was make her sit, watch the helper approach a bit and then engaged her once my command was given. This seemed to help her calm herself. 

We did this by bringing her in, towards the helper. The helper walking around her while I reinforced her sit. I coupled corrections with praise/reward. Once she was quiet, she got to engage. This took awhile but she eventually got it. 

Now, we all laugh because she comes out super quiet, TOTALLY INTENSE and once I ask her to engage... watch out... it's like she explodes... BUT.... now she is able to cap herself without much help from me.

Even our obedience has improved because she has learned that biting and jumping on me (or whoever has what she wants) is not going to get her the thing she wants to desperately. She still does forget sometimes and nips me while heeling or barks at me if she doesn't want to do something or thinks my correction was "unfair" but it's not as intense as it was before. 

I think if a dog has balance in training it can work, but you need to learn how to balance. I work with great people so I was able to learn how to handle Zefra and am now fairly confident in that regard.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have recent video of Zefra doing protection with self control? The one you posted shows typical puppy play.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just make sure not to overdo the obedience and control with a young puppy. There are many schools of thought on this and I think I personally fall somewhere in the middle. We had a seminar with some folks that basically train protection through SchH1 *before* they even start obedience! They are very successful too. Not my cup of tea - neither is not doing any protection before a BH - but lots of different paths to the same result as long as you understand the dog you are working with and have a clear picture of what you are doing and why.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Do you have recent video of Zefra doing protection with self control? The one you posted shows typical puppy play.


No, but I have training tomorrow and will try to get someone to video tape it for me.

The video was to show the OP what 10 month old C phase "work" looks like, since her pup is also 10 months.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Just make sure not to overdo the obedience and control with a young puppy. There are many schools of thought on this and I think I personally fall somewhere in the middle. We had a seminar with some folks that basically train protection through SchH1 *before* they even start obedience! They are very successful too. Not my cup of tea - neither is not doing any protection before a BH -* but lots of different paths to the same result as long as you understand the dog you are working with and have a clear picture of what you are doing and why.*


I think the thing that I have realized is that you really need to work with the dog you have, not every method or every technique you read or hear about is going to work for every dog.

And getting your advice from strangers on a forum who have never seen your dog or you work together is not a method to use either. Work with people who can work WITH you.

Doing a tone of obedience with one puppy may be just what the next puppy needs.

I know with Zefra she needed that structure that obedience at a young age gave her. I let her go pretty much until she was about 9 months old with little obedience (formal AND informal) and she was a monster. Not in the sense that she didn't listen to me but in the sense that she thought everything that she wanted should be hers. Making her work for the things she wanted (ball, tug, fighting with the decoy or bites) help her establish boundries which have carried over in other parts of our training.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> And this is why it is good to let the dog mature some before doing protection....get the obedience stronger & the dog to learn self control.


I also believe that some aspects of "self control" are genetic. Sometimes it doesn't matter how long you let the protection phase go for and instill obedience once that drive comes out in that particular way (protection) you will be right back at square one. 

I have seen it recently with a very nice dog from nice lines.

This young male did the BH, has spectacular obedience and "self control" while working for his handler. Tracking is spot on and methodical. 

He is insane for the tug and you can see him really holding back while working.

As soon as he sees the sleeve he goes ape sh*t. It didn't matter that he was "taught self control" in other aspects of the work up until that point. The handler and TD are now working on this issue.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I also believe that some aspects of "self control" are genetic. Sometimes it doesn't matter how long you let the protection phase go for and instill obedience once that drive comes out in that particular way (protection) you will be right back at square one.
> 
> I have seen it recently with a very nice dog from nice lines.
> 
> ...


Well, IMO, the protection phase IS the phase that the control work is being proofed. And this is when you put some pressure on the dog if the control is going south.

Karlo is similar when it comes to protection(not for the sleeve, but the fight)....his tracking and obedience drives aren't real high, but when we get into the next phase he lights up/full on driven. 
I had to use some(fair) compulsion to get him to learn he controls the game, but with the rules that we've made clear to him.

Back to the OP's situation, a young dog that is redirecting frustration with biting the handler or whatever else gets in its way is not balanced, thus the reason I suggested stopping the bitework for a bit and working on control. It's not like you have to stop for a long while, but just til the dog learns how to cap.
Of course every dog is different and hopefully the OP will get with the clubs TD for an experienced opinion. I hope we'll get updates on the progress!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Well, IMO, the protection phase IS the phase that the control work is being proofed. And this is when you put some pressure on the dog if the control is going south.
> 
> Karlo is similar when it comes to protection(not for the sleeve, but the fight)....his tracking and obedience drives aren't real high, but when we get into the next phase he lights up/full on driven.
> I had to use some(fair) compulsion to get him to learn he controls the game, but with the rules that we've made clear to him.
> ...


I guess what I was trying to say is that working a dog in protection who is unable to cap due to immaturity is one way to work through the problem, instead of taking the dog way from the issues, work through them. This will add more pressure for the dog but in my opinion is a bigger pay off sooner for the dog and handler. The amount pressure put on the dog depends on the dog (temperament, thresholds, etc.) and of course working with someone who understands those things and can ready your dog.

Using Zefra as an example, even obedience was throwing her into drive, she would be all over me for the ball or tug. It depends on the dog, Zefra would get almost as high in obedience as she would in protection so I needed to work both those phases during that time of immaturity in order to gain some control and to teach her how to cap the drive.

Also, the genetic part I was referring too was the thresholds for the individual dogs which I think plays a large part here. I may be wrong but that is how it was explained to me. A low threshold puppy who is not yet mature enough to learn to cap the drive (especially if it is a high drive, high energy dog with low thresholds - hello Zef!) will be over stimulated in both protection and obedience (or whatever else) and working through the toughest challenge (protection for most dogs) will ultimately give you the control you need in the other training areas.

Not sure if that makes sense or not. Having a hard time articulating what I am thinking/wanting to say.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

But the key word is immaturity....why rush an immature dog to do things they can't mentally do? I personally don't like to see the rush(especially with certain lines) I didn't put any pressure on my dog at all until his 3rd year, though we trained in protection weekly. 
He wasn't ready for the control work when he was younger, but he was fairly balanced in his brain so the 'control' finally became necessary when he matured. (Add the fact that we bopped around far too much in our training program which didn't make it excel.)
I wasn't going to put unfair pressure on him when he was not mentally able to handle it. 
I should add...I still don't believe the OP's dog is the 'problem', the handling error is the reason for the tag...I'd never take a tug/sleeve away from the mouth of a young dog thats in high prey drive with the rules unknown. I've seen it happen more than once! The handler learns quickly


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Oh, I do not think it's the dog at all!

Some dogs (not necessarily the OP's dog) need control in other aspects of their life and during this sort of training is the optimal time for that in my opinion. Especially if you are working the dog in the sport from the get-go.

To be perfectly honest, Zefra would be out of control if I didn't do a lot of control work with her from an early start. I wish people could meet her and then they would understand. 

Schutzhund was one way I believe I accomplished that - especially during C phase. I was able to teach her control but also think exposing her to this on a on-going basis is what essentially allowed her to cap herself. 

Do I think I rushed her? No, I think she NEEDED it. 

Two different things and two very different dogs it sounds like.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That couldn't be achieved without doing protection? I know it is fun to watch and all that, but really I don't think it is a necessity when clearly the dog genetically likes to do bitework. With Karlo, if we don't work in the C phase for more than a few weeks, we backstep and he needs a refresher course on control.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

If you're using the dog's genetic drive to work on obedience, though, that's a different story. If you have a strong defensive dog, withholding bite work (IMO) isn't going to help the dog at all. I agree more with working through any issues that come up rather than waiting. If you're using the bite work to get more control and obedience, then that's not a bad thing. If your dog isn't a very civil dog, then waiting wouldn't matter. However, I'd rather gain control now than wait until after the dog goes after someone they don't like. A 10 month old isn't really a pup, more a young dog. I think that the 'pressure' comes into play when the dog is being worked in a non-genetic drive, or has a genetically civil side with no way to get that natural aggression out.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> That couldn't be achieved without doing protection? I know it is fun to watch and all that, but really I don't think it is a necessity when clearly the dog genetically likes to do bitework. With Karlo, if we don't work in the C phase for more than a few weeks, we backstep and he needs a refresher course on control.


It doesn't HAVE to be achieved through protection but if you have a dog where working them in that phase will make the biggest impact on the rest of their training then I say, yes, it is the best phase to work through the issues with.

You said it yourself - if your dog goes without for awhile then he needs a refresher course - working through the problem you have with capping during this phase - when the dog is in it's top drive, pushing themselves to the highest power then teaching the dog, especially a young dog how to control themselves during this phase on a regular basis will in my opinion be better for the dog in the long run. Not so much pressure will be needed to teach the dog later because they have been working on this the whole way through. They have learned over time to manage themselves during this phase not just be put in the situation and 'corrected' for going through the roof.

A dog like Karlo may not need this extra bit of control over themselves, but I can tell you that Zefra most definitely does/did.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I look forward to your video of Zefra's control during protection!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I also tend to agree that protection isn't the phase to work on getting control. Dogs with control issues in protection generally also have them in other areas as well, they just aren't as pronounced.

I would absolutely NOT let your dog continue with that nonsense. I agree it's not handler aggression, but you CAN end up hurt one day and it's unacceptable IMO. I can't say at this age what the right answer is, but a few different options are stopping protection for now, finding another way to get the dog away from the sleeve (ie backing away), or cap it for her (ie supress). Lots more options as well and I don't htink anyone, without seeing your dog, can tell you what the best bet is.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I'm not saying that protection is the only phase where this is being worked on.... like I said, it is ONE phase where it is being worked on. It is also the phase where the dog is in the highest level of drive and intensity, so why would this not be an optimal opportunity to work on control? 

Gosh, this thread reminds me why I hate discussing stuff like this on forums... lol. And tend to just sit back and watch.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I'm not saying that protection is the only phase where this is being worked on.... like I said, it is ONE phase where it is being worked on.* It is also the phase where the dog is in the highest level of drive and intensity, so why would this not be an optimal opportunity to work on control?*
> 
> Gosh, this thread reminds me why I hate discussing stuff like this on forums... lol. And tend to just sit back and watch.


This is why! Because you want the dog in a lower state of drive/ balance when learning some control(talking about 10 month old teenage stage) so comprehension is better. When you get that, then proofing during the protection phase is where the dog actually shows s/he knows how to be in control of their maturing brain. 
Some of the sportier dogs or genetically civil dogs just cannot decipher correctly to understand what is expected, which frustrates them to the point they get over their threshold. 
I'd rather set a stronger foundation with the drive build/cap understanding before setting them up in such a high state of excitement to try to get thru to them. I'm not talking about my dog, but I do see different personalities in training, and most often, letting the dog mature a bit is a huge benefit when it comes to protection work(again talking about the age of 10 months or so)The drive transitions are clearer and the balance is easier to achieve. I wouldn't want an over the top prey dog or over the top defensive dog. I want a balance of prey and aggression.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jane - I am not going to argue with you, nor do I agree with you.

Like I have said, I have seen dogs who exhibit control in every other aspect of training and daily life, and yet when they come into protection (even after a break or allowing the dog to "mature" the dog still comes out in protection like that.

Working through the issue with SOME dogs, especially very civil dogs works. I didn't say all dogs and it may not be the case with the OP's dog, but with SOME dogs - having control at a younger age and applying pressure early on will open up the control to be had later with less pressure in the long run. 

I hate talking about this on a forum because I can't articulate what I am trying to say nor am I able to relate the information my TD has spoken to me about properly because I am not well versed just yet.

Anyways, the video will be posted to my facebook tomorrow if you want to see but I have no real interest in "proving myself or my dog". I know what I do and why I do it and it works for my dog and myself. 

That is all I am saying.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is your dog a civil dog, though? Low threshold/high threshold/ prey or defensive in nature? I don't blame you for not posting a video, who knows what you are working on during this session and interpretation is a wide spectrum. If you saw my protection session today, you'd probably laugh and cringe at the same time...but it made sense to me.

What is the OP's dog? 
Every dog is different...I'm aware.

Consistent training is what it's all about. And knowing how to work that individual dog in protection with the timing of the rewards isn't always done. 
I'm being general, not judging any dog or helper, just putting it out there that not all training is good training. 
The OP needs to make sure the dog gets a good strong foundation set for the personality the dog has. Sorry blackshep for taking your situation to make a long thread, but IMO it is good conversation, I wish you the best!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If not HA, it sure as heck is a lack of control. 

Not a good thing in a dog we are teraching that it is ok (good!) to bite a person.

One benefit that knowledgable ScH people have always preached to me is that we are teaching the dogs "Control" - so i would say that the OP really needs to get control of this dog to eliminate this behavior!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

codmaster said:


> If not HA, it sure as heck is a lack of control.
> 
> Not a good thing in a dog we are teraching that it is ok (good!) to bite a person.
> 
> *One benefit that knowledgable ScH people have always preached to me is that we are teaching the dogs "Control" - so i would say that the OP really needs to get control of this dog to eliminate this behavior!*


This.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Is your dog a civil dog, though? Low threshold/high threshold/ prey or defensive in nature? I don't blame you for not posting a video, who knows what you are working on during this session and interpretation is a wide spectrum. If you saw my protection session today, you'd probably laugh and cringe at the same time...but it made sense to me.
> 
> What is the OP's dog?
> Every dog is different...I'm aware.
> ...


Yes, civil - high drive, low thresholds more on the defensive side but still has quite a high prey drive.

I responded because the OP's post reminded me of the way Zefra was at that age.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

codmaster, how would you achieve this? Advice is great, but more information is helpful


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm certainly going to discuss this with my TD. I know that right now, having a very civil, high drive, lower threshold dog myself.. I'm with Elizabeth on this one. BUT, yes, every dog is different. Regardless, I'd still be shutting that stunt down right off the bat. They CAN think in drive. They have to be taught to think in drive, though. A few days ago, things could have gone horribly sideways. However, Grim proved he *can* think even when in a situation where he was 'turned on' and make good decisions. I haven't seen re-direction myself to date, but it could happen. This has nothing to do with handler aggression, though, so I hope the OP knows that now. It's just leaking frustration from a low threshold. I'd think that with more exposure, the dog would gain a higher threshold. I'm interested to see the difference in my own dog with more exposure. I don't get the feeling that this dog has a lot of field time under it's belt... so I'd hang tight and see what the TD wants to do with the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

One factor that seems to be missing is....who is working the dog?, how are they working the dog, and why? As a handler, if I felt my young dog was consistently out of control, or on the verge of being out of control, I would step back and chat with the helper about what we are really doing at this age, what are we *really* trying to accomplish. I wrote that as a hypothetical but I've had that experience with Pan, trying to find the balance of promoting a high level of drive without having to squash certain behaviors. I found this was easier to address in how the dog was being worked, not how he was being handled. I don't like working in lower states of drive because it seems counterproductive, though I think some of the out of control behavior is not because of drive but other things, which again could be addressed depending on how the dog is being worked on the front end and not just how the dog is being handled on the back end, so to speak. It should not be a three-way struggle between the dog, helper, and handler. If the helper is provoking the dog to consistently show behaviors we don't want to see such that the handler is then trying to bring the dog back under control or bring him down a few notches...what is the dog really learning? I'm not saying this is the case with the OP, but just in the general direction of this discussion..... *talk it through with the helper*

My experience has been that control in protection has more to do with the helper and handler managing the dog's threshold level and helping the dog *cap* drive (not necessarily switch it on and off or work in a lower state of drive) than how much obedience carries over from other phases. I did more obedience with Pan from 7 weeks to 10 months than most SchH people do by 2 years and yet he was the one that was easier to "lose" in protection and always leaked drive (Jason's working on this and I see progress). Nikon had far less obedience but he is a higher threshold dog so control and secondary obedience during protection has never been something we've really had to work at, it's just there because of who he is, not because I was able to perfectly time his obedience training and perfectly balance the amount of obedience he had to perform in protection.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

"Control" in protection(with a young dog) means to me, the dog controls the helper....make the helper retreat with a bark...make the 'threat' dissappear with a show of aggression, the reward isn't always geting a bite , but making that threat go away.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

This has become an interesting thread, in that everyone has their own idea of what a "word" or "phrase" means! 

What I'd like to see is the OP's dog while working to see exactly what's going on..

I've been nailed on more than one occasion by my young dogs while kicking the sleeve, but never really thought anything about it or needed to do anything, other than me being more aware of what I'm doing or getting the **** out of their way!

I thought all phases of SchH are about control and obedience, no?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

blackshep said:


> So I've started schutzhund training with my girl. She seems to be doing fairly well, I get compliments on her from a lot of people that she's doing really well for only trying the protection a couple of times.
> 
> I'm having a little issue though. I took her to a workshop yesterday, and while everyone said she did great, during the protection phase, after the outed the training tug, when I went to move it she nipped my hand. Ok, dumb me, should have kicked it back to the helper. Next time I kicked it back with my far leg and she nipped my near leg. She drew a little blood on my hand, and I have a small bruise on my leg, nothing too bad, but she did connect.
> 
> ...


No kicking, throwing tug, sleeve etc back to the helper and/or away from the dog. You are re-activating the item.

Hunter - you need to be faster


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Smithie86 said:


> No kicking, throwing tug, sleeve etc back to the helper and/or away from the dog. You are re-activating the item.


Yes. I remember Gabor being quite adamant about the handler not handling the sleeve. Ari and I had some conflict issues, and when I came back home and quit touching the sleeve, they disappeared. Although our "issues" were different than what the OP has described, this is certainly something to consider.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The point is that all action for the leather/tug/sleeve COMES FROM THE HELPER. Not the handler.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Liesje said:


> It should not be a three-way struggle between the dog, helper, and handler. If the helper is provoking the dog to consistently show behaviors we don't want to see such that the handler is then trying to bring the dog back under control or bring him down a few notches...what is the dog really learning? I'm not saying this is the case with the OP, but just in the general direction of this discussion..... *talk it through with the helper*


I think this is a really insightful comment and should be repeated.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Liesje* 


> It should not be a three-way struggle between the dog, helper, and handler. If the helper is provoking the dog to consistently show behaviors we don't want to see such that the handler is then trying to bring the dog back under control or bring him down a few notches...what is the dog really learning? I'm not saying this is the case with the OP, but just in the general direction of this discussion..... *talk it through with the helper*


Originally posted by *gagsd*


> I think this is a really insightful comment and should be repeated.


Meaning there should not be a 3 way conflict? If so I completely agree, not fair to a young dog.
And also agree, the helper and handler need to be in complete communication on what the dog is doing. 

blackshep, any updates?


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