# A rant on fireworks...!!!



## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

last night we were sitting in the back garden just relaxing and having a game with Nero, It was about 8:30 so it was still light outside. We were out there for about 20 minutes and some idiots started letting of fireworks over at our local park obviously some thick **** teenagers! Poor Nero he was having a great time with his dad kicking a ball about, And then he hears these fireworks and he bolts indoors with his tail between his legs! He was then really sad all night And he wouldn't even go out for a wee before bed time! He woke me up at 3:15 early this morning! God knows how these little brats get hold of fireworks in the first place as most are bums that live of the state! It makes me so livid! I could understand if it was bonfire night or new years eve! But at 20:50 in the evening! It is the law here that if you let off fireworks after 23:00 in the evening you will get fined for it! Its ashame that these fireworks don't explode in these idiots faces! They would then think twice about letting off the odd firework to impress their mates!!


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## Sue Smart (Jul 12, 2002)

I'm lucky that my 2 girls are not bothered by fireworks. Layla was the most affected. Have you tried Serene-UM? Worked really well for Layla. Although she wouldn't go outside and look at them, she was relaxed enough to curl up on the sofa and sleep. We had our first thunderstorm last night, Kayleigh wasn't a bit bothered, Vixen was indoors but Kayleigh was by the back door running in and out of the rain.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I hear ya. We have a neighbor who every year for the 4th of July buy the big fireworks. Shoots them off and scares every dog in the hood. Then he lights them the rest of the year on and off. He is like a man that thinks he is still a teen! I swear this year they need to arrest him. Oh and he also drives his antique Corvette up and down the street, Grrrrrr!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ah good point to look at something on the breed 

He should not react in such a way to the fireworks. THat is a nerve issue. Many dogs have it but it is not desirable. YOu have mentioned breeding him in the past and a dog that is so reactive to sudden loud noises should not be bred.

It sounds like the noisy neighbors were complying with your laws. Perhaps because it is Easter weekend? We have folks shoot of fireworks here at the drop of a hat. The only time I get mad is when it is a drought situation. Had to empty a fire extinguisher on my grass once (New Years and Bermuda grass goes dormant)


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

So why can't you breed a dog if he is afraid of fireworks? Surely there are dogs out there that are afraid of sudden unexplained noises! And there still bred! Otherwise there would be no dogs on this earth!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Because fear of loud noises is NOT part of the breed standard and actually a test for loud noises (gunfire) is supposed to be part of the breed suitabilty (shutzhund) test. 

There are PLENTY of GSDs who have no issues with guns or fireworks. More than enough GSDs are being bred so I don't think we have to worry about that.

That is needed to work during wartime and in police service and in real life. Who wants a dog that will bolt if a car backfires when he is 10 feet from it?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Max is not afraid of the noise it was the crackling lights at the top of the house that upset him. He seemed more mad than anything else. I just get tired of the unexpected bomb! It is illegal here as well and my neighbor is using fireworks that are meant for professionals. One of these days he is gonna catch the hood on fire!


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

I hear your point, But working dogs that are bred to someday work as k-9's are specifically bred from their two parents that don't have an issue with sudden loud noises, And hopefully this is past on to the pups. And all dogs are trained in these situations before they can pass out as a k-9. I not sure how they breed working dogs in the us, But here they have a base in London and probably other places around britain, That they use to breed dogs that are someday going to train as police dogs! We got Nero from a lady who had been breeding shepherds for 25yrs plus! And some dogs can't help feeling afraid, these fireworks even made me jump! We never say anything to him when hes heard them as this is supposed to make them feel worse, And then they become nervous wrecks!!


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Yes I am sure thats what these kids are using the big industrial fireworks that are ment for big displays! These that we heard last night were not just your average box of fireworks!!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

True, but that attribute is not good for a pet dog either. And it IS something that can be bred against.

I used to walk my older daughter to school, She held the stroller with her younger sister, I pushed the stroller and the dog was on the other side on lead. We were in the city with lots of traffic and nose.

Reacting to a sudden loud nose like that would have been disasterous.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Molly doesn't like fireworks either! But I do not think it is a nerve issue at all. Hunting is very popular in our area and the gun fire doesn't even faze her. It is a common noise. But fireworks are set off once a year and its not a common thing. I bet if fireworks were set off on a routine basis she would get use to it! Probably would be the same for your pup


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

True but each pup that is bred is going to be different, Some might be scared of loud noises and others won't be, In my opinion all dogs have emotions and feelings, And Nero is quite sensitive to these loud and they were very loud, bangs! At the end of the day he has no Idea where these noises are coming from and if they might end up closer to him! So he runs and takes cover! Can't say I blame him!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

I started a thread on what does your dog fear? 99% of people say there dog has at least one fear


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah it was agood read I think I replied to that?? Hmmm thinking??


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> True but each pup that is bred is going to be different, Some might be scared of loud noises and others won't be


And so, to *IMPROVE *the breed (which is what EVERY breeder should strive for) you would eliminate those dogs that ARE scared of loud noises from your breeding program.

What good would a Springer Spaniel be as a hunting dog if it was afraid of gun shots or other loud noises?

What good would a Newfoundland be if it was afraid of the water?

Breeds that were originally created to serve a purpose should be bred TO THAT PURPOSE still today.


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

bismarck isn't afraid of loud noises, but my foster dog is.

so when we hear the fireworks that go off NIGHTLY at seaworld, my foster dog cowers at first, then he sees that biz isn't affected, or even care about the fireworks, and he tends to relax, seeing that there's no harm coming to the alpha dog in the house


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Miss Molly May said:


> Molly doesn't like fireworks either! But I do not think it is a nerve issue at all. Hunting is very popular in our area and the gun fire doesn't even faze her. It is a common noise. But fireworks are set off once a year and its not a common thing. I bet if fireworks were set off on a routine basis she would get use to it! Probably would be the same for your pup


I agree with this. Just like if a dog had never seen a helicopter or plane flying very low and he got scared, doesn't mean the dog is nervous, does it? I bet if the dog lived next to an airport, it would be no big deal.

My property shares a border with a Rod and Gun club. Subsequently gunfire is no big deal to my dogs. They don't even mind when my husband shoots at woodchucks out the back window of the house, actual gunfire IN the house doesn't bother either of them. As much as I dislike the members of that club, they did an excellent job of socializing my dogs to loud noises.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

work with your dog so fireworks, thunder,
loud noises, construction site noise, gun shots, etc
doesn't bother him.


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

uh.. why would you be shooting guns inside the house?

lol


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I don't like fireworks set off at random. I've only had one dog that was fearful of them. She was a street stray as a puppy when I got her from the Humane Society in July. Her fear of fireworks is probably what put her on the street at 11 - 12 weeks of age.
She never really did get used to them. The pup I brought home when she was 12 had the attitude "what's that? let me go get it!" but that good attitude did not help the worrier. Loss of hearing when she got older (she lived to be 15) helped a lot in regards to fireworks.
My dislike of fireworks outside of holidays has little to do with my dog's reaction. It has a lot to do with safety and enjoying as little noise pollution as possible. Heck, I think the stupid ice cream van should not be allowed. I'm hoping the rising cost of gas does it in.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bismarck's_Dad said:


> uh.. why would you be shooting guns inside the house?
> 
> lol


NOT 

But I sure don't want any dog I have to freak and try to run off if it is a foot from a car that backfires. A startle would be appropriate. That is all.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

we learned in puppy class is that if loud noises like thunder storms, fireworks, lawmowers etc. happens and they are scared give them treats give them a favorite toy act like its a party. show them the sounds are ok, so, next time they wont be afraid..


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i have a show dog and fireworks, fire crackers, thunder,
construction site noise, etc doesn't bother him. i think being
afraid of loud noise is a training issue. my dog was exposed to gun shots
at a very young age. i think gun shots were fired before the pups
eyes were open.



CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> I hear your point, But working dogs that are bred to someday work as k-9's are specifically bred from their two parents that don't have an issue with sudden loud noises, And hopefully this is past on to the pups. And all dogs are trained in these situations before they can pass out as a k-9.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

doggiedad said:


> i have a show dog and fireworks, fire crackers, thunder,
> construction site noise, etc doesn't bother him. i think being
> afraid of loud noise is a training issue. my dog was exposed to gun shots
> at a very young age. i think gun shots were fired before the pups
> eyes were open.


I believe it really is a nerve, not a training, issue.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

So its basically like saying that if a woman or a man is scared of something that they shouldn't have children incase there fear of something is passed on in the genes!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> So its basically like saying that if a woman or a man is scared of something that they shouldn't have children incase there fear of something is passed on in the genes!


No it is not the same at all. As people, we have control over how we choose to react, and can pursue therapies that can help us overcome our fears. Dogs have no such ability to choose their reaction - the fear is hard-wired. 

Since a GSD should be fearless and not react to loud noises, breeding GSDs that are KNOWN to be sensitive and afraid is not caring about GSDs. Unfortunately, many people are very, very, VERY good at rationalizing their breeding decisions, and excusing breed weaknesses in their breeding dogs.
You are doing it, and the breeder you got Nero from is doing it. A dog that is afraid of loud noises and bolts in fear and panic is a danger to all, even if the dog is only meant to be a pet.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm pretty fortunate, I live in a poor working class neighborhood.
The joke I used to say was, if I needed a tattoo, a drink, lapdance or crackpipe it's all walking distance. If I need a loaf of bread, dog food or Milk it's at least a mile.

Therefore, my dog has been exposed to the idiots that don't learn about gravity in school. Gunshots at New Years, Cinco de Mayo, Fourth of July, Sharks in the Playoffs, Mexican Independence (Sept). Accompaning fireworks, banging of pots and pans, yelling and general drunkeness.

Idiots on Harleys that for some inexplicable reason feel the need to rev up the rpms high while backing into the curb. Yeah, yeah...loud pipes save lives but really? Parking at a curb? Expecting a patron at the bar to cut in front of you parking? If that's the concern you need a freakn' scooter; a rascal scooter. 
Those ones make me laugh as Alice likes motorcycles. The last guy who did it, I just walked by Alice glanced at him and kept going and I said loud enough for him to hear, "Let's go Alice, Uncle Willie's is bigger"

I think aside from that ramblin' rant....I consider Alice "weak nerved" as she does get skittish in large crowds. But, the more I expose her to crowded enviroments the better she does get. 
If you live in a normally quiet enviroment, the dog doesn't get exposed to much. Even walking in quiet parks, neighborhoods etc.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Nero is not a danger to anyone! He has no other fears apart from fireworks and is a well socialised well behaved and very well mannerd! He is the ultimate family dog!, Why are you presuming that my dog is a danger to people just because he doesn't like loud sudden noises?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

IF a dog is weak nerved they CAN be desensitized to the object of their concerns. I had a weak nerved dog (and he was NOT sound sensitive) I washed from SAR because I had to acclimated him to new and unusual situations. He could not adapt on the fly.

My little female Cyra - her FIRST exposure to a gun was a 9mm pistol from about 50 feet. She was quick startle then she drug me over there because she just had to see what on earth it was. Grim is also not sensitive to sounds (well unless you consider howling with sirens) and that is from breeding. not acclimitization.

So, yes, you CAN desensitive a dog but the need to so the first place shows a genetic weakness.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

no one said anything like that. 

here's my $0.02, can you desensitize a dog from loud noises? sure, but with a well bred GSD you shouldn't have too because they're not supposed to be afraid of loud noises. My GSD isn't afraid of loud noises he's not what I'd call weak nerved. I didn't have to desensitize him from loud noises, when I rescued him.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying your Nero is poorly bred he just had a quality that's not supposed to be in GSD's that doesn't make him less of a dog


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Nero is not a danger to anyone! He has no other fears apart from fireworks and is a well socialised well behaved and very well mannerd! He is the ultimate family dog!, Why are you presuming that my dog is a danger to people just because he doesn't like loud sudden noises?


You have put the work into Nero to minimize his faults - I have seen genetically excellent dogs who can be basically raised in nothing but a kennel come out not NEEDING the extensive desensitizaiton and coddling that many pets need just to get by.

It is excellent to do these things regardless of the dog you have as it enriches their and your life. If you BRED Nero and the puppy owners were not as conscientous as you then his puppies may be the ones you hear about trying to bite other dogs' heads off out of fear.

You have minimized the impact of a fault by your excellent care and raising of this dog but there in no squirming out of this, Plain and simple it is a breed FAULT.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

You can't breed emotions and feelings out of a dog, its like, if you don't like say for instance you don't like clowns, does that mean that your child isn't going to like clowns? Everyone humans and animals all have different fears and feelings, I don't see how you can just breed that out of a dog?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not saying that Nero is a danger to anyone. But if you breed him, and he passes on his fear of loud noises, then some of the pups can grow up to be fearful dogs that are a risk out in public, and those dogs can breed and pass on their fear of loud noises and be a risk out in public, and twenty five years down the road, there are hundreds of GSDs around with serious fear issues, so much so that they can not be trusted out in public. Sad for the dogs and for the owners. 

So the responsible thing to do, is to be honest with oneself, and not only think about how much we love our dog, and what cute puppies they will make, but to look at the big picture separate from our feelings, and only make breeding decisions if we understand how breeding our dog will affect hundreds of dogs down the line. And being able to stand up and say "I love my dog, but I will not breed him", shows a real respect for German Shepherds, and shows a real understanding of the breed.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Once when I was at the park with a friend and our dogs who were playing together, some kids let off fireworks about 100 feet away from us! Bianca just looked over but didn't move, but my friend's dog BOLTED off-- TOWARDS the fireworks! He thought they were something fun to go play with.  She called him off but the funny part (stupid on the kids' part) was there was a police car in the park, they were parked just down the hill from where we were standing but I guess the kids did not notice this. Fireworks of almost any kind are illegal here. The police car when tearing off towards the kids, and my friend and I just laughed. It was dark so we didn't see whether they were actually caught though.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

My boy is terrified of loud noises. It used to be just fireworks. Now it the drums from the college boys next door, & their loud truck engine revving up. However, when these latter two things occur, I ignore Z and his reactions. He is recovering quicker from the 'shock' of the loud noise. With the fireworks, he was like that when I got him and last New Year's Eve, I managed to get him comfortable and relaxed with a bit of medication, and that is the ONLY time I medicate-is for fireworks. I am actually glad that the boys next door play drums to help desensitize Z!


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

How do you know if Nero ever had puppies that they would turn out to be afraid of loud unexpected noises? An unexpected noise can often make me and probably plenty of others a little jumpy and quite possibly nervous.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> An unexpected noise can often make me and probably plenty of others a little jumpy and quite possibly nervous.


Offhand, I'd say that if your dog looks for you for leadership and you're jumpy and possibly nervous(with an loud and unexpected noise)...it may give him a reason to react the same way.
You may want to consider your reactions and how quickly you recover your calmness (for lack of a better word).

"Wow! My leader is scared! It must be something terrible!"

Just a thought.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> but my friend's dog BOLTED off-- TOWARDS the fireworks! He thought they were something fun to go play with.


 
THAT, was really funny.

Now, I won't talk about Alice and the first time I pulled out the ironing board.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Yes loud noises can make me jump, But I don't act in a way that it has such an effect on my dog.


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## Chowgal (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm sorry that happened. I know how it is to have a reactive dog. My girl Dixie is deathly afraid of fireworks. Thank God she's ok with every other noise.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

You'd be surprised what a dog can catch onto. They are very astute as far as reading body language (it's their main form of communication I believe).

Something as subtle as a tiny inperceptable tilt of the chin, a twitch of a hand, catching your breath...it's absolutely amazing.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Just a question? Do breeders take there dog to fireworks shows to see if the dog in question is breedable?


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Miss Molly May: What a good question! Perhaps some people do, to create the ultimate fearless dog! LOL!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Miss Molly May: What a good question! Perhaps some people do, to create the ultimate fearless dog! LOL!


 
I am with you on this one!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

I bet if I were to buy lots of fireworks and started to shoot them off daily that Molly would get use to it!


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Miss Molly May said:


> I am with you on this one!


Thanks, So do you think dogs have fears that they can't help being afraid off?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really am sorry you are making light of this and don't seem to understand - were it not for the fact that the world may be blessed with more little Nero's bred to possibly just as fearful a dog I would not persist and let it go.

Actually a good breeder DOES test for sound sensitivity. It is part of the shutzhund test and I think one of the complaints is that because they can precondition the dog for this so it makes it less valid as a test (but a GOOD breeder is going to be honest about that up front and know well before they have to test it formally whether or not the dog is sound sensitive)

They also test for a score of other things to prove hardness, courage, trainability as well as understand the core temperament of their dogs. Then they do health checks and x-rays, and study the progeny of the other dogs in the pedigree etc etc. 

They do not breed to try to recreate a "mini-me" which is likely to not happen anyway. Takes two to tango you know and the female has another layer of influence on the pups through her mothering skills as well as, yes, the intraunterine environment! Even the sex ratio in the litter can influence the outcome of the puppies.

The sadness is many think a big fluffy bag of nerves (not saying your dog is) will amazingly protect you from the bad guy when all the wuff wuff was simply fear. Sigh.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Thanks, So do you think dogs have fears that they can't help being afraid off?


 
I *think* my dog has a healthy fear of bears. We passed on in the woods and his hackles went up and instead of loosely working around me in the woods (he was offlead), he got between me and it. I could TELL he was nervous but he neither ran nor tucked tail and put himself between me and it, not the other way. So yes, I believe we were both scared. He is 8 years old and the only time I have ever seen his hackles go up.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

That sounds more like a healthy dose of respect and common sense. I'd have a hard time staying calm if I saw a bear. Even a so-called "harmless" CA blackbear. (Yep...we're the idiots who made our state flag emblem extinct)

As far as breeders testing for temprament on the dogs that they want to breed; yes...the good ones do. Maybe not a fireworks show but definitely a barrage of temprament testing to see if a dog is worth carrying on a line.
I doubt any of the SAR dogs working at any major catastrophe have too many loud sound reactivity or fear. Neither do the K9s working in Iraq or any police dept. I'd like to believe that anyway.

Now, the "PBS Breeders" you know, the ones who want to have puppies because the kids want puppies....no.
BYB breeders...No.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

The sadness is many think a big fluffy bag of nerves (not saying your dog is) will amazingly protect you from the bad guy when all the wuff wuff was simply fear. Sigh.[/QUOTE]

I know if ever I was attacked in the street and Nero was with me, He wouldn't think twice about giving that person a good strong bite!! Its never happend, But I know that he would!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ah, but there is a broad enough spectrum in the litters bred from people breeding to the true standard to provide dogs that may not cut the muster as working animals........

Those can become pets. Well bred pets. Pets that may be perfectly find but just not suitalbe for work. You can get that without breeding pets to pets to make more.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> Those can become pets. Well bred pets. Pets that may be perfectly find but just not suitalbe for work. You can get that without breeding pets to pets to make more.


I still would want a "well bred" pet that had OFA ratings and good nerves.
If I thought every person walking down my neighborhood was out to do me harm...I'd be living in fear.

Can't do that in my neighborhood; it's too Tom Waits. Or, if I'm walking down by the hospital and someone with severe physical disabilities and bizarre (body language to a dog again) body language: ex: spastic muscle movements. I wouldn't want my dog to react. That's my choice. Kids rolling past me on a skateboard on the same sidewalk. That's their right...it's public sidewalk. Not, my dog's.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Ah, but there is a broad enough spectrum in the litters bred from people breeding to the true standard to provide dogs that may not cut the muster as working animals........
> 
> Those can become pets. Well bred pets. Pets that may be perfectly find but just not suitalbe for work. You can get that without breeding pets to pets to make more.


Whats with all the breed standard stuff, why can't we just let our dogs be dogs! With all the basic training of course!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Whats with all the breed standard stuff, why can't we just let our dogs be dogs! With all the basic training of course!!


If you don't care about a breed standard, and your main interest in getting a dog is having a nice pet, may I suggest the local shelter with a wide selection of wonderful, lovable, amazingly smart, and eager to please mutts? 

I found one mixed breed from a shelter that went on to be a therapy dog, and my present one is unfazed by thunder, fireworks, gunfire, etc. Highly trainable and very smart. Passed temperament tests, Obedience tests (which included a not-reacting-to-gunfire test), and tracking tests and an endurance test. If a mutt can do this, shouldn't every GSD that is bred be able to do _at least_ this much and more? 

If you care about GSDs, and want a GSD, then you should care about the standard, because that is what defines the GSD. There are many GSDs from great litters that may fall short a little in being cut out to be working dogs with nerves of steel, and those dogs fit the bill exactly for wonderful pets.

Now, we are not attacking Nero. He sounds amazing and adorable and you are lucky to have him. But loving your dog does not make him breeding material, though it does make him an excellent pet. But pets of the same caliber as Nero can be found by the THOUSANDS in shelters all over the world. So why add to that while at the same time diluting some of the stellar qualities of what the standard calls for.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> If you don't care about a breed standard, and your main interest in getting a dog is having a nice pet, may I suggest the local shelter with a wide selection of wonderful, lovable, amazingly smart, and eager to please mutts?
> 
> I found one mixed breed from a shelter that went on to be a therapy dog, and my present one is unfazed by thunder, fireworks, gunfire, etc. Highly trainable and very smart.
> 
> ...


 
All the breeding standards, have basically made the gsd breed a weak dog all the health issues with these dogs hind legs is an absolute disgrace! I care far more that these dogs are bred without human intervention, And I am glad I got Nero from the breeder we choose! She has given us a happy, healthy typical shepherd! So what hes scared of fireworks doesn't make him any less of shepherd.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Then what criteria would you use to determine whether a dog should be bred or not? Should every dog be bred just because it's a "nice dog"?

If all breeders said they didn't care to follow the breed standard, how long do you think a German Shepherd would still look and act like a German Shepherd?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not talking about the show-standard and how that has changed the GSD. Breeding only for show is what has caused the nerve-strength of the breed to deteriorate to the point that most people think that a dog shying away from stranger and afraid of thunder and fireworks is "normal" (not saying that Nero is shy  ). 

I'm talking about performance events, where the true nature of the dog is revealed. The examples I listed above, including the gun-shot test, are part of Schutzhund, which is part of the German Shepherd Breed test. There is also Protection component to the test, so the wonderful protective qualities are also preserved and maintained and is an important element of the GSD temperament. 

To illustrate how complex maintaining the working ability is in a working dog, my mixed breed can do most of the test, and I am planning on taking her farther in tracking tests, and she does some of the protection work just fine. She will bark agressively on command, and will bite the bite sleeve on the agitator, and fight to take it from him, but through all this, an experienced person can see that if the threat was real, she would back off. After all this training, with great improvement in her, there is still that little bit of doubt and unsureness. So how can people say that they know for a fact their dog would defend and protect them, if they have never had to? We all would love to believe it, and many dogs would protect, but if one wants to breed a GSD, and maintain the qualities of the GSD in the breed, then one cannot just guess, and say that they are sure they would "if" put to the test. The good breeders actually DO put their dogs to the test, so they aren't speculating, they actually know what they are breeding, not just guessing at what they are breeding. 

Doing the training with my mixed breed has been a real education for me, one has no idea how much they don't know if they don't know how much they don't know. 

I have no doubt that Nero is a wonderful dog. That comes across very clearly in your posts. But to our eyes, aren't ALL our dogs just wonderful and unique? Does that mean we should ALL go out and breed our dogs? Of course not. 

And since you seem to show some interest in learning more about GSDs correct temperament, here is an excellent article that describes what good GSD temperament is:
Elem. of Temperament

A real classic article. Very well written and worth the time to take it in.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Clarke-duncan, you have a great GSD who I'm sure loves you and will do just about anything for you. That does not make him breedworthy. That's why there are so many venues to test our dogs to see if they live up to the standard. If we ignored the breed standard then the very essence of what makes a GSD a GSD would be gone. Would you just want a GSD in looks? I hope not. This is what the breed standard is there for. If you breed a dog that does not live up to the standard then you are not fully appreciating what the GSD is.

I own a papillon. She is an amazing dog and I love her as much as family. I got her from a BYB; she has a great personality and everyone tells me how beautiful she is all the time. Do I want to breed her? Heck no! She definitely does not live up to her breed's standards. If I did I would be no better then a BYB.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> last night we were sitting in the back garden just relaxing and having a game with Nero, It was about 8:30 so it was still light outside. We were out there for about 20 minutes and some idiots started letting of fireworks over at our local park obviously some thick s*** teenagers! Poor Nero he was having a great time with his dad kicking a ball about, And then he hears these fireworks and he bolts indoors with his tail between his legs! He was then really sad all night And he wouldn't even go out for a wee before bed time! He woke me up at 3:15 early this morning! God knows how these little brats get hold of fireworks in the first place as most are bums that live of the state! It makes me so livid! I could understand if it was bonfire night or new years eve! But at 20:50 in the evening! It is the law here that if you let off fireworks after 23:00 in the evening you will get fined for it! Its ashame that these fireworks don't explode in these idiots faces! They would then think twice about letting off the odd firework to impress their mates!!


My son was lighting an artillery style shell that exploded on him (not at my house). He was burned from head to legs. It happened 4 yrs ago, but he still has gun powder in his skin, big scars and little pellets that push out of the skin. It was traumatic for me at the time but now it's sorta funny. He called me and said calmly "mom I blew myself up". 
When I drove to the house he was staying the night, he was standing outside and his hair was smoking. The stupid parents in charge didn't even know what had happened, I was furious.
All year when my son would sweat, it was grey sweat. yuck! If i showed you pics you would gag. But I post them on 4th of July as a cautionary tail.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

A tiny bit off topic, but after reading this, I want to see if what I gathered is correct- I should be able to take my GSD around fireworks with no problem (assuming she is bred well)? 

I only ask because I have been contemplating taking her to a firework show for the past few years, and since it is almost July again, I have been thinking about it more often.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

I know exactly what the temperament of gsd is. My family has always had shepherds and they have all shown obiedience,courage,confidence (except Nero when it comes to fireworks) Always alert and willing to learn, great family friendly dogs. We also got Nero knowing that he was going to be a family dog. And we wouldn't have him any other way! As for him biting an attacker who was trying to get me or my fiancee he would most probably rip someone to shreads!! If I would give him half the chance! But I have not bought up my dog to vicious, And I definately would not want him to be vicious! He has never shown any agression towards anyone ever! Like I said he is our faithful, friendly, family companion, And when I said I would love to breed him, Its always been there in my mind, But would I actually do it, Probably not, Well not now at his age anyway.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

krystyne73 said:


> My son was lighting an artillery style shell that exploded on him (not at my house). He was burned from head to legs.
> 
> Sorry to hear that!


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> krystyne73 said:
> 
> 
> > My son was lighting an artillery style shell that exploded on him (not at my house). He was burned from head to legs.
> ...


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

krystyne73 said:


> CLARKE-DUNCAN said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, sorry after I posted it, I read the rest of the thread and realized I was way off the current discussion. LOL
> ...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

vicky2200 said:


> A tiny bit off topic, but after reading this, I want to see if what I gathered is correct- I should be able to take my GSD around fireworks with no problem (assuming she is bred well)?


The breeding of your GSD is just one facet - look at her individual ability to deal with loud noises. Sometimes one can hit the jackpot and get a solid pup with no noise sensitivity out of a randomly bred litter (like my Keeta, random mixed breed), or have a dog that didn't quite inherit the solid nerves of his or her parents and show fear and avoidance when exposed to loud noises. 

So if to date she has just ignored unexpected loud noises (or just startled briefly, then went to investigate), and loud booming noises like thunder, gun-fire, a car/truck backfiring, then she should be good with the fireworks too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Whats with all the breed standard stuff, why can't we just let our dogs be dogs! With all the basic training of course!!


 
What is a standard? Think about standards set which allow one to practice medicine, teach school, operate a clean commercial kitchen. We come to expect certain things automatically without needing to question the persons skills level.
Now dogs are a bit different . Each and every dog breed , member of public registry , stud book, has an outline which states specifically what the features of a breed are . Size , upper and lower limits. Coat type and colour. Facial features. Without a standard you would be able to have a coat as close as a Dobermann's , with the colour of a wire haired fox terrier, the size of a beagle , and the head of a borzoi. But you do not because you try to adhere to produce a breed uniformity . Most pay attention to the external -- one of the reasons that the black and tans, black and reds are so popular with the pet crowd because that colour
in the general public represents the traditional or classic GSD . It is obvious .
However , the breed standard also sets out some very specific characteristics necessary to the breed. Calm, fearless, neutral to strangers , approachable but not making the initiative in being friendly, loyal , attentive , watchful, confident and assertive, willing to work.
This is a handy little site which allows you to see different breed clubs written standard for the GSD . Each one states fawning and over friendly as a fault , and each one states lack of confidence in any situation is a serious fault . German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard Comparisons - Canada's Guide to Dogs
The standard is there so that there is a universal expectation . If I go for a certain breed I am guaranteed that I will have certain character , certain instincts. 
Without this you have a dog, but you do not have a german shepherd.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you would expect a breeder to understand and work within the standards. You don't have to question the safety of the wiring of your house because there are codes and standards to meet . When you purchase a car you can add a piney fresh scent tag or order something fancy , which is optional. Good temperament is never optional . It should be standard, expected and delivered. Sadly it is not .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think dogs can be concerned about things, sure. But, nerve strength can allow them to assess and think about tjose things. 

I had a dog who was afraid of fireworks. Not a good thing and reflective of nerve strength. I would not want to pass on the weakness. Of courese, he was a loving companion dog but I would notwant to breed him as the genetics could pass on.

Samba is concerned about fireworks, I think. When my boys were young, they set off a package of blackcat fireworks they were bending over. Samba jumped up, ran and gabbed the exploding mess and flung it away from the kids. I was so worried that she would get it in the mouth. So, a dog can have concern over something but with nerve strength the ability to think remains.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Glad my dog isn't the only one classed as a fault then!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but read again , the dog went TOWARD the exploding mess of fireworks and took them out of the range of the kids.

that is not a fault. I am amazed that she could think this out and look out for her "boys".

the concern was not a fear .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Why should any dog be labled a fault just because it is scared of loud bangs? Its pretty harsh don't you think?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The term "fault" implies anything in a GSD structure and temperament that falls outside the standard. If Nero was judged against the standard to evaluate him for breeding, a long coat would be a 'fault', and fear of loud noises would be a fault. 
It is not a bashing of Nero, but an objective comparison of the dog at hand against the ideal, perfect dog, if such an animal existed. 

My GSD is too tall, according to the standard, by half an inch. So that is a 'fault' too. A pretty mild fault that doesn't make him any less of a great dog,but a fault nonetheless.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Glad to hear you say that there is no such thing as a perfect dog! Everyone is going to say that there dog is perfect in every single way, despite their little faults! My dog is perfect in every possible way, Well to me he his! Despite breed standards! And Im sure you feel the same about your own dogs!?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

because the nerves are not strong , which renders it useless in some situations, and maybe more situations than you are aware of.

Alright for a pet . Not to be bred on . 

I had one dog which I imported , a most stunningly beautiful male . Linda Shaw and I tried for over 6 months -- this dog could not be remedied. You would resolve one thing and another would pop up, till they all showed up at once.

We were at a "trainers" home -- and all he did was drop a hairbrush and that dog ran so hard he smacked into the wall.

Here is a site of a fellow countryman of Clarke-Duncan , with many topics to peruse. I will open it at a van Oirschot article STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES

Some of the best books written are by British writers, Brian Wooton, and Malcolm Willis . I have some of the year books of the Alsation League of Great Britain, later recognized 1991? as the German Shepherd League of Great Britain. Always well written articles in the books.

will buy issues if you know of any!

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We all love our dogs even if they don't meet the standard or have quirks. 
But we don't BREED those dogs. 
That was why the point was even stressed with you.

The underlying nerve fault means that you THINK you dog will protect you but why didn't he protect you from the fireworks as did Samba's dog? He tucked tail and ran to protect his own self. The dog with a fear issue puts his own self preservation first.

My dog has stood between me and a bear, he has done bitework in defense before I got him, I have had several police officers tell me not to understimate him (he is very calm and nonagressive), but I am not going to count on him to protect me if it comes to that because, honestly, I DON'T know..[and I still carry pepper spray and try to stay out of dicey situations]


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Just because he runs away from fireworks doesn't mean that he would run from some guy trying to get at me! All I would have to do is scream and Im very sure that he would be there to fight the bad guys!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a fault also has to be kept in perspective. A dog that is minimally over size or under size but good in character in every other way is forgiveable - but that fault and the statistics on his sire dam and littermates and possible already existing progeny must be taken in to consideration when breeding. If he is the fluke , chances are slim that he will found a new line of extra large dogs. Go to the site I provided STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES and see some of the faults , that some of the major , famous show line dogs had and produced.

I can deal with a dog that is not perfect to physical uniformity or standard more than I can deal with a dog that is faulty in temperament . 

You have to pick and choose and make executive decisions . You can not eliminate everything because then you would have a very very tiny gene pool. 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

why don't you go around to your local schutzhund club and set up a mock confrontation. Fellow appears at your house , all planned for of course. He comes in to your yard and makes loud threats and mock swings. Then you will see .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

But then I would probably get the vicious dog patrol round and declare Nero as a dangerous dog, When actually hes far from it!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

carmspack said:


> why don't you go around to your local schutzhund club and set up a mock confrontation. Fellow appears at your house , all planned for of course. He comes in to your yard and makes loud threats and mock swings. Then you will see .http://www.carmspack.com


Or go to a Temperament Test like the GSDCA temperament test or ATTS test.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

My Kain isn't at all afraid of gunshots (fireworks I dunno), but he doesn't like the air compressor in my shop. He won't tuck tail and run but he'll calmly leave the area when it kicks on. I guess if this is a fault, I can live with it (as long as I'm never attacked by an angry air compressor ).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

RazinKain said:


> My Kain isn't at all afraid of gunshots (fireworks I dunno), but he doesn't like the air compressor in my shop. He won't tuck tail and run but he'll calmly leave the area when it kicks on. I guess if this is a fault, I can live with it (as long as I'm never attacked by an angry air compressor ).


What what you have not heard of the air compressor murders? Serious stuff there. They sneak into you room at night and pump you full of air until you explode. Your dog is a worthless peice of trash he will walk out, get a beer, and eat your sandwiches while the air compressor murder does you in.

:groovy::groovy::groovy:

-----------------

I think I am saying this thread has REALLY run its course......................


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> What what you have not heard of the air compressor murders? Serious stuff there. They sneak into you room at night and pump you full of air until you explode. *Your dog is a worthless peice of trash he will walk out, get a beer, and eat your sandwiches while the air compressor murder does you in*.
> 
> :groovy::groovy::groovy:


:rofl: Yeah, he's an opportunist.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Ever since we got Sasha, Meika has turned into a big wimp. Even if the dogs are barking outside she runs into the house and sits next to me. Sasha has traumatized her and I caught on to late.
Now Sasha, she could careless if there are gun shots or fireworks or even a knife wielding person in the house...as long as she has her ball. My trainer thinks she would be great for protection but I disagree hahaha
My Great Dane doesn't like much of anything but me though he doesn't run he actually confronts it...he ripped open his neck trying to attack a firework years ago, so yea, no fireworks for this dog. 
ugh...after my Great Dane dies I will have no protection.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

:groovy::groovy::groovy:

-----------------

I think I am saying this thread has REALLY run its course......................[/QUOTE]

Yeah even I agree to this lol.... Just one thing though all that was said on my side is in my own opinion and if someones has there own opinions on things, these can be hard to change! And I totally understand your opinions! Thats what this website is all about though isn't it? Giving people the chance to express the way they feel about their dogs and their opinions! Gosh get this bank holiday over with and I think I might get a Doctors appointment arranged to have my blood pressure checked!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if the blood pressure is high turn to potassium rich foods, lots of celery, bananas, onions and garlic , if garlic is allowed in Britain -- lol 
Carmen


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

carmspack said:


> if the blood pressure is high turn to potassium rich foods, lots of celery, bananas, onions and garlic , if garlic is allowed in Britain -- lol
> Carmen


 
The best thing to do is to give your dogs lots of cuddles and strokes, This is supposed to decrease your blood pressure! Garlic is allowed in Britain, Why wouldn't it be?


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Don't forget Yoo-Hoo drinks...they have lots of potassium.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> Don't forget Yoo-Hoo drinks...they have lots of potassium.


What is yoo-hoo drinks? Language barrier! Me not understand! Me no speak American!! lol....


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Drink Yoo-Hoo

mmmm....Yoo-Hoo!
I'd drink it at work but unfortunately it only comes in the glass bottles where I live.
I used to drink it when I was a bicycle commuter. Potassium....prevents leg cramps.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> if the blood pressure is high turn to potassium rich foods, lots of celery, bananas, onions and garlic , if garlic is allowed in Britain -- lol
> Carmen


Coffee is loaded with potassium and, for me, believe it or not lowers my BP. Yoo Hoo - you can keep that nasty stuff - blech. I drink my coffee black though.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Well this is now really of the original topic! Lol...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just joking with you Clarke-Duncan -- garlic , the "French" condiment , the smell of the continentals -- yes dog ownership should be soothing , I've heard of that . Look how many people on the forum have bloodshot eyes from agro (aggravation). 
Yes love your dog . Absolutely -- 
Carmen
http:/www.carmspack.com


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

carmspack said:


> just joking with you Clarke-Duncan -- garlic , the "French" condiment , the smell of the continentals -- yes dog ownership should be soothing , I've heard of that . Look how many people on the forum have bloodshot eyes from agro (aggravation).
> Yes love your dog . Absolutely --
> Carmen
> http:/www.carmspack.com
> ...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Hope people know that Clarke-duncan,(my fiancee's name) is actually female! I just thought I would use something easy to remember as a username! From Lisa.....


Don't worry about it too much, I keep getting mistaken for a 'he' because of my username too. 

Maybe I should start reading more of these threads.. I have low blood pressure, which sounds like a good thing except I have to be careful when standing up from a reclining position because I will sometimes get dizzy or have a "greyout".


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> last night we were sitting in the back garden just relaxing and having a game with Nero, It was about 8:30 so it was still light outside. We were out there for about 20 minutes and some idiots started letting of fireworks over at our local park obviously some thick **** teenagers! Poor Nero he was having a great time with his dad kicking a ball about, And then he hears these fireworks and he bolts indoors with his tail between his legs! He was then really sad all night And he wouldn't even go out for a wee before bed time! He woke me up at 3:15 early this morning! God knows how these little brats get hold of fireworks in the first place as most are bums that live of the state! It makes me so livid! I could understand if it was bonfire night or new years eve! But at 20:50 in the evening! It is the law here that if you let off fireworks after 23:00 in the evening you will get fined for it! Its ashame that these fireworks don't explode in these idiots faces! They would then think twice about letting off the odd firework to impress their mates!!


 
I agree being upset about fireworks being used illegally, but I think it would be a real tradegy if they would explode in someones face regardless of whose dog they were annoying.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

This is a little off topic, but it's noise related. I was sitting in my office last night, and I had my gsd inside with me, (as well as the lab, the blue heeler, and the border collie) It started to storm, and sure enough... when the lightning and thunder show started up, my german shepherd, started to act silly. So I just sat in my chair watching her. I really think she was wanting to go outside and "get" that thunder and lightning. Everytime she heard it she would whine, and race to which ever window or door she thought it was at, and she would "point". So, is that fear, fear aggression, just noise aggression? She doesn't bark, or growl at the storm, but she does appear ready to charge or bolt out the door at something if I were to turn her loose in the middle of the storm. She's been exposed to several loud things around here. I do notice when I fire off a 22 riffle, she will come a running to see what I'm doing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know I *don't* know. Somehow I think it is some level of weakness but not sure.

And I am saying that about my own dogs. 

Grim will bark at fireworks and want to charge in. Cyra wants to charge in, too....and did run up and bite the barrel of a gun that was fired but I don't really know what that means.

They are both completely oblivious to storms though.

I do know the DESIRED reaction is calm neutrality.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Easter evening when we came home and I took Gunner out into the yard for some much needed exercise.
I had my chuckit and he was chasing balls and getting some of his pent up energy off.
About 10 minutes in, our neighbors 2 houses down set off some firecrackers. It was several LOUD bangs in rapid succession. It was only one yard over so it was very close.
Gunner ran up the steps to the deck and just stood there at the top. He was just looking all around. Now, he has never so much as flinched at loud noises. Nothing has ever so much as fazed him.Even loud thunder claps get no reaction. But I don't ever recall firecrackers being set off since I've had him (he's 2 1/2 now) so I figured it was a new thing for him and he didn't know what it was.
I didn't react and just let him be and went and gathered up some balls. About 10 seconds later, he walked back down the stairs and play resumed as normal.

He didn't seem overly scared. He just kinda stood there. It almost looked like he ran up the stairs to get a better look at where the noise came from.
I don't consider Gunner to be weak nerved because he reacted to firecrackers. Of course some may disagree.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was thinking a positive action on the dog's part would be scored higher than neutral on a temperament test score.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> Easter evening when we came home and I took Gunner out into the yard for some much needed exercise.
> I had my chuckit and he was chasing balls and getting some of his pent up energy off.
> About 10 minutes in, our neighbors 2 houses down set off some firecrackers. It was several LOUD bangs in rapid succession. It was only one yard over so it was very close.
> Gunner ran up the steps to the deck and just stood there at the top. He was just looking all around. Now, he has never so much as flinched at loud noises. Nothing has ever so much as fazed him.Even loud thunder claps get no reaction. But I don't ever recall firecrackers being set off since I've had him (he's 2 1/2 now) so I figured it was a new thing for him and he didn't know what it was.
> ...


 
I also do not consider dogs as being weak nerved either, Just because they react to fireworks, thunder etc... sometimes fireworks can be so loud, Well especially the industrial ones meant for public displays. Imagine how loud us humans hear them, Well it must be a nightmare for dogs! Especially the rocket type firework, that makes a massive loud squeal before it even explodes!..


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

those were positive reactions , like throwing the heavy skillet on to the floor to test pups and they all go rushing over to it . .


So Lisa of Clarke-Duncan could you PM me with any scandal concerning Royal son Andrew?
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

carmspack said:


> those were positive reactions , like throwing the heavy skillet on to the floor to test pups and they all go rushing over to it . .
> 
> 
> So Lisa of Clarke-Duncan could you PM me with any scandal concerning Royal son Andrew?
> ...


Why don't you just Google( Prince Andrew current affairs)


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

My older poodle will just stand looking around when I am firing my cannon if he doesn't know that someone is watching him. If he sees someone looking at him he will even wimper when kids shoot cap guns.

He has the act down good for getting attention.


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