# Kuba vom Fluchtweg: thoughts?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

This video came up on my "Recommended Videos" list on youtube. I watched both the protection and obedience and really like this dog. Was sad to not see him out on the long bite (is that what's it's called? maybe it's called the courage test?) but still, I liked the dog- especially in obedience.

I don't know if there's an etiquette to this or not, but I'd like to know what others think about this dog. Things I noticed- the obedience was wonderful. I thought it was overall very tight and nice and the dog seemed to show lots of enthusiasm. In protection, the bark and hold seemed convincing and I loved the backup into heel position. However, unlike the bark and hold, I felt the tail position was much lower and more stiff on the exercise after the bark and hold (is this called the reattack?) and of course the tone of the bark turned squeaky. The I noticed the same thing on the attack on the transport as well- tail even more stiff. Does that mean anything??? I'm looking to learn here...











Overall- I really enjoyed watching that dog!

*[EDIT]-* pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=733637 I think I've seen the name Puck and Mink before, but I don't recognize any of the others (which means nothing, since I know nothing about lines).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

He is a maternal half brother to Jogi Zonk's dog Moses - watch his video....his obedience is super - but Jogi is one of the most accomplished trainers in his generation! 

Mink is very widespread in teh working lines, Kuba is line bred on him with Nick H. as well....Moses is line bred on Falco v h Sindren...so I tend to like his pedigree better...

Lee


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- I sure like the way Moses looks! Definitely looks like a balanced dog; he looks really compact too which I love. I can't find any public video though.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Moses vom Fluchtweg - working-dog.eu

videos are on this page



Lee


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes- I found those but you have to be a premium member to view them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Those guys (Jogi, Tobias, et al) have an interesting training program, one that I personally cannot stand (as in, I could *never* train my dogs using their methods because many of them just go against the core of how I approach training) but it works really well for them and they are very successful! I like Kuba, maybe like him more than how he is actually trained and presented, but I think he is a good dog and could be successful even trained in a different way, if that makes sense.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Those guys (Jogi, Tobias, et al) have an interesting training program, *one that I personally cannot stand (as in, I could *never* train my dogs using their methods because many of them just go against the core of how I approach training)* but it works really well for them and they are very successful! I like Kuba, maybe like him more than how he is actually trained and presented, but I think he is a good dog and could be successful even trained in a different way, if that makes sense.


:wub::wub::wub:


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Those guys (Jogi, Tobias, et al) have an interesting training program, one that I personally cannot stand (as in, I could *never* train my dogs using their methods because many of them just go against the core of how I approach training) but it works really well for them and they are very successful!


Just curious here, because I've been to a Jogi seminar (I know you don't get the full picture at seminars) and I know Bart Bellon uses a lot of the same stuff.. A couple people I train with are using their system.. I know this is a public forum and if you don't want to post publically, then maybe you can PM me.. What is it exactly you don't like in their training program?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This dog has a very hard, high octane pedigree with dogs not for the faint of heart...if you had given me this pedigree beforehand and asked what would be some potential sport problems?........I would have said not " outing" in the protection routine probably after stick hits.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

G-burg said:


> Just curious here, because I've been to a Jogi seminar (I know you don't get the full picture at seminars) and I know Bart Bellon uses a lot of the same stuff.. A couple people I train with are using their system.. I know this is a public forum and if you don't want to post publically, then maybe you can PM me.. What is it exactly you don't like in their training program?


In general, I don't like using toys to train protection exercises, namely the hold and bark. Just a personal preference thing for me. I have huge respect for these guys and their success, and I think for the most part they have awesome dogs that would excel regardless of how they're trained. I think if the pedigree is right the dog is going to show power and fight and aggression even if the training is based in prey/toys/flashy stuff. I like the dogs and the end result, but the training (at least what I have seen promoted) just isn't for me.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> This dog has a very hard, high octane pedigree with dogs not for the faint of heart...if you had given me this pedigree beforehand and asked what would be some potential sport problems?........I would have said not " outing" in the protection routine probably after stick hits.


That must explain the change in tone and demeanor after the stick hits, yes? Is there something about this dog's lineage that explains the really enthusiastic obedience? It's not just that the obedience was good, it's that to me, it looked like the dog was having a good time. I'd say the same thing about Furious von Wolfstraum. That's another dog who I thought really enjoyed the obedience portion.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

My experience with dogs with Mink close up, is an aptitude for obedience....especially when you are using toys and treats. They really excel with that method. As for the out, I do not see the slowness as show of strength and power, I see it as weakness. My understanding is these guys are wizards with an e-collar. 

I'm not going to go on and on, I have said enough over the years about where SchH was headed. This is what it is now. I don't much care for the dog for a number of reasons, two of them being in the behavior before the outs and in his behavior when he refused to. A bit too frantic for my tastes in the way he works overall. This dog strikes me as being rather easy to reach and excitable with more drive than hardness. I don't view him, ( on this video anyway), as a particularly tough or courageous dog or a dog with high fight drive, even though some of what he does might give that impression. There have always been dogs like this , just not as many as there are now. 

I didn't watch the obedience but I think I have seen a few segments of it before. Also not my cup of tea although I am certain it is plenty flashy, accurate and fast. Something highly valued now that IMO, has changed the breed. Some think it is a change for the better, others don't.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Vandal said:


> I didn't watch the obedience but I think I have seen a few segments of it before. Also not my cup of tea although I am certain it is plenty flashy, accurate and fast. Something highly valued now that IMO, has changed the breed. Some think it is a change for the better, others don't.


If the obedience wasn't plenty flashy, accurate, and fast- what would it be? I'm wondering what you would rather see...? Is there a reason you _wouldn't_ want at least accurate and fast? Is it just the flashiness that you don't like?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It's not about whether I like it as far as entertainment goes. It is simply that not all GSDs will work like that, due to a different type of temperament. I already described the way "I" view the dog but I always look at dogs through a breeding lense, not simply SchH and putting on a good show.
Some of the more solid, stoic, really courageous types of dogs will not be quite as "quick" . It doesn't mean they are slow or not accurate or fast in the way they do things naturally but they will not respond to this type of training the same way. There is a difference in the look overall. 
The problems arise when people are so interested in getting that quickness and flash, they lose site of where breeding for that might take things. It is as simple as that for me, hence my comments about the breed changing. I prefer dogs who like to work for ME, where you can see the bond in how they look at the handler and the happiness etc. This stuff looks too artificial to me. Again, certainly good training and hard work from the trainers but I prefer to see a dog working in a more "natural " way....because I breed GSDs. I look at the dog, not the training.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting. Thanks for that perspective. I'm having a hard time figuring out the difference between a dog who "likes to work for ME, where you can see the bond in how they look at the handler and the happiness etc" and one who is flashy, fast, and accurate. And I'm not just playing devil's advocate... If the dog loves working with you, is incredibly bonded to you, and is incredibly happy to do work for you, then why wouldn't they naturally be quick to respond to commands?

Well... truth be told- I think all of those things about my own dog, and she is anything but quick, flashy, and accurate! haha! So maybe I _do_ understand more than I'm allowing myself to admit.  I've always considered my own dog's lack of snappiness to be a history of reinforcement of slow responses- in other words- poor training on my part. If I'm understanding you correctly, while my poor training could certainly have a strong impact- some dogs simply will not be snappy like this regardless of training, how much they love you, and how much they love to work.

Am I understanding you correctly?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I liked the dog-didn't like the squeaky bark-it almost doesn't seem to fit ...thought some of the obedience was cool-but it did seem mechanical so it didn't really appeal to me-sometimes I even like routines where the dog is just having fun- maybe someone can post a video of a dog doing obedience where there is a bond-shuldn't be hard to find


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think that really flashy, snappy obedience means there's *not* a bond, just that we shouldn't assume that there is, or that the dog is more happy to work or more engaged with the handler when it is that intense than a dog that is not as quick or intense. That is what I got from Anne's post. I've seen some really intense, flashy, happy dogs that work at that level for *anyone*, so for them it isn't always about the bond and desire to work with/for the handler either. One time one of my helper's let me work with his dog since I didn't have a dog that day and his dog was heeling better with me after 30 seconds than any of my dogs! But that's just how his dog heels, always head up and really bouncy. If you put a ball in your armpit he will go with you. When I think of working with Nikon, I don't know how we could have a better bond. Sometimes I feel like he reads my thoughts, like I give him a look that precedes a command or something I'm about to say, and he does what I want/am thinking before I even say it. But, he doesn't have the same level of drive and intensity as a lot of today's high level sport dogs. Doesn't mean he's not very willing and happy to work, just that the motivation for him is a bit different and I can't load him up that high no matter what I do.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

This dog has great training and puts on a **** of show. But he lacks depth, gravitas and the basics of the sport. You can't have a good dog without the basics of bark, bite and out and this dog is lacking in all three areas.

His slow outs don't show power they belie weakness. Notice that he is not full biting and dominate when he is slow to out?

Evey bite is 3/4 and he dosen't show any dominate opposition to the helper. For example, when a good dog dosen't out because he's a badass he would bite full and shake/torque the helper. Strong dogs impose their will on the helper. This dog dog just holds on a bit with his fangs and shakes himself, not the helper. If you want to see lots of examples of what I'm talking about look at the protection work at sieger shows.

The bark is a product of training. The dog is not connecting to the helper with aggression. He's just barking to bring the helper into action. He's not detaining or pushing the helper.

And as cool and entertaining as it looks, the call out of the blind is sort of silly. Why would you take the time to teach that when you have to walk 10 paces past the helper to set up for the side transports and stay almost meter away from the helper during the transport? There is no extra credit in IPO for fancy stuff but he can loose points for the excessive distance he uses.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Fast said:


> And as cool and entertaining as it looks, the call out of the blind is sort of silly. Why would you take the time to teach that when you have to walk 10 paces past the helper to set up for the side transports and stay almost meter away from the helper during the transport? There is no extra credit in IPO for fancy stuff but he can loose points for the excessive distance he uses.


I rewatched the video, and while certainly not as well as you or others in this thread, I think I saw some of the points you were making. However, I don't understand the connection to the call out of the blind with the transport. How do those two things relate to each other? Why would the way he trained the call out of the blind affect the transport?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

wildo said:


> I rewatched the video, and while certainly not as well as you or others in this thread, I think I saw some of the points you were making. However, I don't understand the connection to the call out of the blind with the transport. How do those two things relate to each other? Why would the way he trained the call out of the blind affect the transport?


Sorry. Maybe I was not very clear. Basically what I'm saying is that I believe more time should be spent teaching the basics like the transports and less time on things that get you zero points like a tricky call out.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

maybe this was addressed already but I wanted to comment on the tail wagging in heeling. When my dogs are very "serious",their tails drop and move less. My border collies wag during heeling but not when they are walking next to me while stalking sheep. Their tail drops and goes very still. All of my dogs have always had less tail movement during protection than during obedience/agility.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Fast said:


> This dog has great training and puts on a **** of show. But he lacks depth, gravitas and the basics of the sport. You can't have a good dog without the basics of bark, bite and out and this dog is lacking in all three areas.
> 
> His slow outs don't show power they belie weakness. Notice that he is not full biting and dominate when he is slow to out?
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I love malinois and some day probably I'll own one. That day I still expect my GSD to act like a GD and my mali to act like a mali. Even if totally correct and flashy this dog lacked completely that "something" that draws me to the German Shepherd and the reason I probably will always have one at my side.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Catu said:


> I love malinois and some day probably I'll own one.


The problems that this dog has would be a problem in Malinois too.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

^ Exactly!

I have 3 Malinois and I don't expect a single one of them to ever exhibit those types of behaviors in the work.. but I also don't train like that, either.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have no doubts of that! I wasn't referring to the flaws of the dog, I agree those are as bad in GSD as in malis and as bad in a SchH dog as in a mondio dog as even in a SAR dog. It's more about the kind of "quickness" Anne talks about, and why people feel they need to "train" that into a dog.

I love how my dog shows power only standing from a down, it is something that anyone, even not dog people can feel. I don't pretend a snappy obedience with electrical movements from him, it is not into my dog and I won't be doing any favor to him asking for those. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate those and I love to see a mali flying to grab an escaping helper from the armpit on french ring.


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## jchilders04 (Jan 11, 2011)

Not revive a semi-old thread, but here is another example of Kuba's "flashiness", fast forward to 7:52, the 'send out'... I've always enjoyed and admired this dog in its precision, but can definately see those alternate points of views as far as protection...


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

I will agree with most of what is written in this thread. The dog, although fantastic and clearly driven and happy, lacks power in the bitework. I will disagree with this to an extent 

"And as cool and entertaining as it looks, the call out of the blind is sort of silly. Why would you take the time to teach that when you have to walk 10 paces past the helper to set up for the side transports and stay almost meter away from the helper during the transport? There is no extra credit in IPO for fancy stuff but he can loose points for the excessive distance he uses."

Only because I have seen some dogs naturally back into position and excessive training was not required for this behavior. It was simply easier to allow it than to try and change it. Not saying this is the situation for this dog but it was done very nicely and with speed and precision. So while I would knock the dog for his yippy barks out of the blind and lack of power in the grips, I wouldn't knock him for the call out.


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## RealityDreamer (Sep 29, 2005)

I would agree with the others. It is a silght difference (to me) between a robot like obedience compared to a clean/precise routine.

Tobias/Kuba, Jogi/Moses, etc have this robotic nature in their obedience routine. I'm not saying it's wrong but it is not my cup of tea.

I like a very clean, precise routine...look up Ronny van den Berghe and his dogs. I think he does very nice obedience without being robotic. 

As far as obedience, and protection goes...what about tracking? That is also part of the dog


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

RealityDreamer said:


> Tobias/Kuba, Jogi/Moses, etc have this robotic nature in their obedience routine. I'm not saying it's wrong but it is not my cup of tea.
> 
> I like a very clean, precise routine...look up Ronny van den Berghe and his dogs. I think he does very nice obedience without being robotic.
> 
> As far as obedience, and protection goes...what about tracking? That is also part of the dog


Couldn't agree more! I think Ronny is an excellent example.. as is Peter Verachtert and Bert Aerts


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder  I agree with the protection issues but not sure I see this dog's obedience as "robotic". He appears is in nice drive, happy, and animated. To me, robotic is precise with no enthusiasm- flat but correct obedience. I don't see that in this dog. Truthfully, I would be very happy to have the obedience that this dog and handler show or even Moses (probably a bit more so Moses). The same goes for the little obedience I have seen from Moses. High drive, tail wagging, great animation. But again, that is just me. The thing I really see that differs from these two dogs and the other people you mentioned seems to mostly be the way the dogs heel, more animated front ends with head more pointed upward like a typical Mal and a bit faster twitch responses to things such as return to heel. Is this what you guys aren't liking?


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

christinaekenn said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder  I agree with the protection issues but not sure I see this dog's obedience as "robotic". He appears is in nice drive, happy, and animated. To me, robotic is precise with no enthusiasm- flat but correct obedience. I don't see that in this dog. Truthfully, I would be very happy to have the obedience that this dog and handler show or even Moses (probably a bit more so Moses). The same goes for the little obedience I have seen from Moses. High drive, tail wagging, great animation. But again, that is just me. The thing I really see that differs from these two dogs and the other people you mentioned seems to mostly be the way the dogs heel, more animated front ends with head more pointed upward like a typical Mal and a bit faster twitch responses to things such as return to heel. Is this what you guys aren't liking?


Christina, 

I believe what I tend to not like about it, is the fact that I know the way these dogs have been trained.. primarily R- and with A LOT of electric. Yes, they get rewarded, but they first "learn" things by how to escape the stimulation. NePoPo is negative-positive-positive. This is why I feel these particular dogs are "robotic" because there is really nothing natural about the way they perform. I don't mind the extreme vertical head position, but don't necessarily think it is typical of a Malinois.. my Mal is very animated in her OB, but her head position is not naturally that vertical.

Ronny & Como, winning WUSV 2010:

WUSV 2010 Ronny Van den Berghe B 97 - YouTube


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