# Feel horrible, but it was not our fault LONG



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Okay let me start out by saying ryder is now 2 years old. 

The first incident happened when he was 6 months to 1 year old. We were walking down the sidewalk, I had ryder on his choke collar, and we was walking past this house and here comes a little yorkie her name is dolly ann, and she attacked my ryder. I was on my cell phone trying to call someone. But i hurried up and put it down. Ryder had dolly ann in his mouth and was shaking her. I finally got him to let go and she took off. The owner said he was sorry and she was ok, and asked how ryder was? I told him he was fine. So after that incident Ryder would not walk down that sidewalk again for a long time. He know walks on that sidewalk but i have not seen that guy there for a long time, i just assumed that he moved, cause the yard was all cleaned up and what not. Now since this happened he is really on guard. To present day, well yesterday 5-12-09. My girls 5, and 10 and i decided to go for a walk yesterday and take Ryder and my dachshund Valley. I had Ryder on his choke collar, and my 5 year old(billye) had valley. My 10 year old(jacey) was beside her sister. We was just a walking along and i happened to look over and there was a truck parked in front of this house trying to leave, well it could not because dolly ann was in front of it. So we stopped, a little ways back.. My dogs had not seen her. But the owner says oh theres that big dog, and he went and was trying to get his dog, she came up snarling and baring teeth at my dogs, but i was able to contain ryder really well. Valley just barked. Well the owner took dolly ann to the house and apologized again, well we started to take off and bam i hear this guy yell ROCKY NO! I had forgotten about the male. He came flying out of the house and i was trying to hold ryder back but i had to grab Billye cause valley was trying to go after this thing that was coming after us, and she was dragging billye. So i grabbbed billyes arm and was holding her and all the while this yorkie( rocky) comes up and tries to get at ryder, well ryder basically picked him up as soon as the yorkie got close enough and shook him violently. I was freaking out, my kids were yelling the owner was yelling and trying to pull his dog out of my dogs mouth. I finally got ryder to let go and rocky ran to the house and the guy took off after him. Well the guy dropped his tape measure so jacey took it upto him, and when she did the guy apologized, he apologized while all this was going on. Well i did not know what to do except to get my kids and dogs away from the situation. So we did our walk. Well we get about 4 blocks from where this happened and i see this car pull up beside me. Well it was the daughter of the guy. She says mam, I need to know if your dog is upto date on shots? I said yes he is i have everything at home. Well they had to take the dog to the vet because ryder apperntly halfway tore the dogs bottom jaw off. The girl says i also need either your name or the dogs name, well i gave her ryders name. She says "like dad said it was his faulst he didn't tie the dogs up." I told her i said i don't know what to do this is the 2nd time this has happened. She didn't say anything just left.

Well I found out this morning that this girl nows my niece and was trying to get my name and everything from her. 
I am so afraid they are going to try and get my dog. Even though it was not my fault. This guy never ties or pens up his dogs, they are always running the neighborhoood. There was a little chocolate chihuauha there to , but it isn't his, it lives up the road the other way. But it took off as soon as it seen ryder. It runs the neighborhood to. THey come upto the fence and drive my dogs nuts, and i can't help but wander if this isn't why ryder don't like them, or if he really is just looking after us. I gotta say the first time this happened my girls were not with me, and it wasn't this bad. This time my girls were with me and it was horrific.
I am just glad don't have ace, and i wasn't walking him. Because there would have been no way i could have controlled ace. ( By the way he is doing wonderfully). But ryder doesn't like to be away from his girls. If they are outside he has to be outside with them or he whines and paces the whole time.

I just feel awful for the dog, but i don't know. I guess i just needed to vent to other people that have this wonderful breed.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I can understand why you're upset, just glad neither you nor the kids were injured.

You, the kids and the dogs should be able to walk down a public street without getting accosted by out of control dogs of any size.

IMHO you should file a police report about the incident just so there's an official record of what happened.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

While your title says, "but not our fault," I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is partially your fault. Knowing that the little dogs came out of the house the last time going after Ryder, you walked past that house again, knowing that the owner has an issue with being able to keep his small dogs contained.

You also knew how Ryder would react (since, I'm assuming that after incident 1, he received no formal training on "Leave It," etc.?) 

Did the Yorkies run off the guy's yard/sidewalk? Or did the Yorkies run out into the street? What are the leash laws for your city/county? If your city/county have leash laws, then I would contact the authorities to report what happened. Otherwise, the owners of the Yorkie could just say, "this big mean aggressive German Shepherd came into my yard and attacked my dog not once....but twice it has done that."

If either of my dogs had an issue with dogs at a particular home, I would NOT walk them past that area for awhile. There are plenty of other streets/areas I could take them to walk.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

If you had read the post, i thought this guy had moved since then cause i had not seen him or the dogs. But in any case i should be able to walk where i want. That is the route i take. The last time this happened i called animal control and got no help at all because he is lazy. Police as far as i know will not get involved. Its a dog what the heck do they care. 

He does now commands, maybe not leave it but he knows when to stop doing something. HOwever put yourself in my situation with your two kids, two dogs, and one attacking your dog, and your dog doing what he was bred to do. I was FREAKING out. You try and stay calm while you are worried grapless that your kids are somehow going to get tore up.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

reporting it would only work if this was after the first incident but now? I think reporting the dogs running loose would just bring more trouble unless a neighbour has reported it, then you might stand a chance.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I have a 17 - almost 18 yr old step-daughter and on the occasions she is with us, she isn't allowed to walk either of my dogs.

This is a very unfortunate incident for you, your dogs and your children, but I am a big believer in you protect your dogs. There are enough legislations, stupid people, unmannered animals that you have to be on your guard at all times. You have to be in care and control of your dogs at all times, just like a motor vehicle.

You really have to train them to be non-reactive, especially in situations like this. It's the only way to protect them. If you fail that, you fail them.

I don't mean to be harsh, but nobody will look out for your dog/s but you. Which means training them to not react to other dogs, making sure they NEVER put their mouths near another dog.

If it were me, I'd be aiming kicks at the little dogs, owner there or not, if I get bit, I get bit and the owner wants to say something, I'll make a sailor blush....... And if my dogs ever bit another dog, well lets just say they would be very sorry once we got home. Training would be in earnest, they would be tied to me when I'm home and confined when I'm not. They wouldn't be allowed to look left or right without my permission.

I think you need to get copies of your vet paperwork, take it to the owner of the little dog along with a cheque for the vet bills. It wasn't your dog's fault, but it sure was yours. They are our responsibility, our obligation and if we fail them, we don't just fail one dog, we fail every other dog of that breed or similar breed in the community, state/province and country.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but incidences like this are why BSL's exist, why breeding bans exist and why we all pay more on our house insurance, licenses etc. We need to be the reason such nonsense stops. It is always human responsibility.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

I had same thing happen to my 90# Sashi yrs ago, 2 different cases, one little dog OFF LEASH mine on leash and little dog comes CHARGING after Sash, Sash just barked like warning bark, the woman laughed and said oh he thinks he is a big dog








when it is all over and I thought Id have a heart attack. Another time, another small dog comes charging towards us, I took the lead and stomped my feet and YELLED go away go away, that dog acted viscious owner just stood there. There are only 2 ways I can walk. the other way there are a yard of pitbulls, and I have seen one jump the 6 ft fence. 
no way Im walking up that way with Neek. and theres also a Chihuaha thatruns loose around here alot. 
They are probably going to hit you up for their vet bills and it wouldnt have happened if they wouldve had their small dogs securely locked up or on leash.








I doubt if they can take your GSD. its dogs being dogs and yours was on leash right?
Actually, looking back over the 9 yrs I had him, I had big dogs come up to Sash, too but they were easier than the small ones. They seemed to want to just say hi








Good luck and keep posted.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I believe you wee in the right.
I personally take HUE detours when I have my dogs to avoid vicious dogs in their homes. 

Get him into some classes for dog aggression/obedience. 

I'm not sure why you didn't turn the yorkie into a football. No dog will ever attack mine without me protecting him.
That is probably why your dog acts badly in these situations, nobody's protecting him! Last time he had to defend himself, and this time as well. 

Just get him into some classes, and as much as I hate it, either take him a different route or muzzle, because if he kills the innocent little yorkie in front of it's home, what do you think the judge will say?
It make give him a bad image, but I would rather muzzle my dog and have people think he's mean than have him kill an ignorant owners' dog.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well i am looking into classes, i just don't know how much i can afford. As far as kicking the lil SH**. Ryder didn't give me a chance, thats what i am saying he was in proctective mode. I do feel bad but i will not pay for his mistakes. Yes my dog was on leash, they are always on leash, when they aren't they are in the fenced yard.

The other day we had a pit bull run upto us, i wasn't worried about it until it started barking when it seen my 5 year old and kept running up, when it did i put my foot up and my foot landed in its neck. I had no idea where this dog came from, now i know, right across the street, it must have gotten out of its fence, but they have another, the other day i saw the owner walking both of them.

Something will be done, i just don't know what yet. Cause when we finished our walk yesterday, we seen plenty of other small dogs on leash and he just wanted to smell them.

I dont' get it.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree with the muzzle until you seek a trainer.One thing to work on in the mean time is focus.This is what I have been instructed to work on with Athena's problem. 

I have been in the same situation twice with Athena but no blood has been shed.One time I was walking her and a beagle attacked us.Not my fault,if the dog had been hurt I WOULD NOT have paid any vet bill.Mine was leashed there's was loose.The 2nd was just being in the wrong building at the wrong time.Athena was leashed the other dog wasn't but I was on her turf.I however didn't know she would be there.I had just discussed with the woman's SIL that Athena loves people and hate dogs and out of the blue this woman came in the building with her dog.They went at it and it sounded like one of them was going to be bloody but neither one were hurt.I think it was fear crying on both parts.Knowing that, that dog is likely being in that area I no longer take Athena in the yard and if I do I won't be in a building so I can hopefully get away before it happens again.In this case had that dog been hurt by Athena I probably would have at least split the bill if not paid all of it. 

One mistake if I am reading correctly was as soon as you saw another dog you should have turned your butt around and aborted your walk plans at least walking that way.I had to do that last night due to a neighbor that never leashes his dog which is fine if he can control him which I believe he can.They were in the woods by the river and as soon as I saw them I turned our butts around and skipped the walk.I know his dog was OK but I now Athena wouldn't be OK.I have also been instructed by our trainer to do a 180 and abort the walk if we encounter any dogs.As a matter of fact I did it this AM.I planned on walking farther with her but one house had a dog that I couldn't see was barking and Athena was getting stressed so we came right home instead of continuing.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleWhile your title says, "but not our fault," I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is partially your fault.


Certainly not legally.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

Whenever something like this happens, file a report FIRST. Don't let someone else call the police, you want to be the ONE to do it. The "my dog was attacked" when you were the first to make a claim goes a lot farther than the police knocking on your door later and asking questions why your dog "attacked" another dog.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

You have a 5 year old child. To get the attention of the PD, you HAVE to say you thought this charging dog was going to bite your kid. This is probably what your dog thought and he reacted to it. 

He's a young german shepherd, they don't always do the right thing. 

That's why training is important. YOU HAVE TO take him places where people are with other dogs so he gets used to it. 

I look for terrier type dogs becuase the odds are good a terrier will bark at Otto. I purposely walk him in a tight heel past other dogs, after I get his focus on me. When we get a few feet from the other dog or if he notices it, I tell him to leave it. If he's a good boy and ignores it, he gets heaped with praise. Bad boy gets a solid pop on his prong collar. He's getting to be a much better boy lately


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ozzymamaI have a 17 - almost 18 yr old step-daughter and on the occasions she is with us, she isn't allowed to walk either of my dogs.
> 
> This is a very unfortunate incident for you, your dogs and your children, but I am a big believer in you protect your dogs. There are enough legislations, stupid people, unmannered animals that you have to be on your guard at all times. You have to be in care and control of your dogs at all times, just like a motor vehicle.
> 
> ...



THIS was my point. I have a Pit Bull, and I have worked very hard, since Day 1, on teaching him "Leave It" and not to be reactive in situations such as the OPs. It wasn't that long ago that a dog came running out at us when we were walking. This was a dog similar in size to Cash. Thank Heavens I had taught "Leave It" which he respects to mean, "don't look, don't react, don't do ANYTHING to whatever it is I'm telling him 'Leave It' to." 

All I would need is for Cash to show an inkling of interest (not even in a protective manner) in a dog that charges us for him to be deemed an "aggressive dog," his fault or not.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: amd1Cause when we finished our walk yesterday, we seen plenty of other small dogs on leash and he just wanted to smell them.
> 
> I dont' get it.


Because the little dogs walking on a leash didn't come charging out at you or your dog, acting in an aggressive manner. It's dog behavior. 

Same as if a person came walking up to you calmly and if a person came running up to you with a mad look on their face, flailing their arms at you.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I think that SunCzarina pointed out something important. An incident like this can show you where you need to focus your efforts. That's not the same as assigning blame.
But, since I brought up blame- I think the title of your thread is right on.
In no way, shape or form was this your fault. Your dog didn't have the opportunity to flee, _because he was properly restrained_- he was protecting his family and himself.

Maybe you could practice kicking field goals in your backyard? Become the next Adam Vinitieri. Go for the 50+ yarder


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

And you know what Shel, I never "got it" until Ozzy. The last few years with him have made me rethink my whole opinion on BSL etc., I was once a proponent for it. Ozzy may not be a pure shepherd, but we still are stigmatized because of his size, his muscle toning and his colours. I work my but off to make sure he is as well-behaved and well socialized as Sandi - but the problem is, people see the size, the colour and don't see the manners etc.

We've been attacked on walks, we live in a densely dog populated area. But I make darn sure my dog doesn't cast a glance at another dog because no matter whose fault it is, no matter how things happen, chances are my dog will be the one under scrutiny.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ozzymama
> We've been attacked on walks, we live in a densely dog populated area. But I make darn sure my dog doesn't cast a glance at another dog because no matter whose fault it is, no matter how things happen, chances are my dog will be the one under scrutiny.


Although I don't want to agree with your statment that you will be under scrutiny, I do believe that will be the case. 

To the OP, the problem is that this incident may not have been your fault, but that does not mean that it is not your responsiblity. The owner of the injured dog could sue you for the vet bills in small claims court. The fact that they are looking for your name and the daughter was cruising around in her car would lead to me to believe that this is their intentions. 

Vet bills will be less expensive than legal fees.

The fact that your dog picked the small dog up and was shaking her may be where you lose your arguement if the owners persue legal action. A judge will see little/vs big dog. Little dog needed vet treatment. They may not even take into consideration the events leading up to the incident let alone know anything about dog behaviour.

I have seen my parent's Irish Setter (long time ago) hunting groundhogs and when he caught them he would shake them in an attempt to kill them. Not a pretty sight.

The shaking part is were I would be concerned. If your dog bit the other dog without the shaking part I would have offered a different opinion.

A while ago I called my local animal control and asked this question. At the time, my friend's sheltie had charged several bigger dogs, who all reacted by growling and snapping. Their response was that since it is dog/dog not dog/human it would be handled on a case by case basis and they could not make a general statement.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I could not disagree more. Usually when someone says it was not my fault there is some rationalization and we are all responsible for our dogs. But when the OP's dog was attacked on a street, but unchained ankle biters, LOL give me a break.

The OP should have reported the unprovoked attacks immediately.

I am in the opposite situation with a rescue named Maia. Three weeks after breaking her jaw on a lab she was returned to our rescue, and attacked a Pit Bull. Was it my fault; YES.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: amd1.... I do feel bad but i will not pay for his mistakes. ...


Don't be too sure about that one.


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## Prinzsalpha (Jul 6, 2005)

Your minding your own business and walking your dog who is leashed and under control and this crazy Yorkie comes yapping right upto your dog. Geez....I would say you were attacked.By a yorkie no less.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I understand the temptation to say they should pay the vet bill to smooth things over but if it ever became a legal issue, that could be interpreted as an admission of guilt. 

I think blame here largely rests on the Yorkie owner, but I do think it's important not to walk more dogs than we can safely control - no matter what unpredictable event occurs. Our priority needs to be to keep our dogs safe - from other dogs, from legal issues, whatever. It sounds like between the kids and multiple dogs, this may have been too much. With a better dog/human ratio it is a lot easier to intercede and body block the attacking dog. I walk several GSDs at a time, but always need to make sure that I don't have more dogs without a perfect "leave it" than I can handle because weird stuff really does happen on walks. I've had to fend off attacking loose dogs with my foot on more than one occasion.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

i have had almost similar situation, I have called animal control on a few folks around here that like to let there jack russels run loose, in the county I live in they just adopted a new Vicious dog policy, I`m walking down the street with Max and Lilah GSD`s, total weight 180lbs, I walk them past this house, and out runs one of them fuzzy little dogs, did not know what breed it was, I had full control of my 2, this little dog didnt get to close, so on my return trip, I saw the home owner let another one out of the house when he saw me coming, now this one runs right out in the street at us in attack mode, at this time I would say I only had about 80% control, Max was starting to pull, ears forward, tail straight out, I keep telling him no, and the home owner was in his doorway watching this, made not attempt what so ever to call his dogs, I knew if this little dog got close enough it would be all over in a split second, so I go home and call animal control, and then I called the city attorney, both said if anything would have happened it would be on the clown that let his dogs out because they came off the property without supervision and attacked, so if I were you I wouldn't worry about it, and I wouldn't pay the vet bill, i call everytime I see a neighbors dog running loose,


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

I have several dogs in my neighborhood that I know would charge us if they could get out or loose off their tie-out. Right now I just keep her walking by these dogs that are freaking out and have her ignore them. I tell her "leave it" and stay calm. I had spray similar to what mailmen carry (stopped working because I've never used it)which I need to replace. I intend to carry it with me and use it if needed. Nobody would get bit (hopefully) and the owner could learn a lesson. So sorry this happened to you! I'd report it first and just tell them that in the heat of the moment (trying to protect the kids from the dog and control your dog at the same time) you couldn't keep your dog from shaking the little one. It was self-defense! That owner should have learned from the first incident and been more responsible himself!


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: amd1.... I do feel bad but i will not pay for his mistakes. ...
> ...


Leashed dog vs non-leashed dog. No way would it even be up for debate in a courtroom. Especially if there is any semblance of a leash-law for her city/county.


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## cthemrun (Jan 4, 2009)

there is a Yorkie that lives up the street from me also that the owners I feel basically do not give a crap about this dog... I have spoke to them on several occasions about there dog being let out to walk the neighborhood.... this dog constantly comes down to my house and just sits in the front of the house.. I truly am trying to be nice. I try to take my dogs for a walk and there have been several times this dog has come out... thank god he seems to be smart and realize that these are 3 GSD so he just stays on his property and barks, but as I told them if there dog comes after my dogs and my dogs are on a leash... I will not be responsible for any vet bills or if my dog kills there dog... 

I have the right to walk down public property, and they need to keep there dog under control.... 

there is another little dog that is like 14 years old that gets out of her fenced in yard just around the corner and my dogs totally ignore...but this one doesn't run the neighborhood like the other one... 

you are in the legal right now unless you were on that persons property.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

kenk, Holding the owners of the loose dog responsible is the way it should be, however, when I called my animal control to ask "what if", they told me that there would be an investigation, and the outcome is not a given. They also told me that if they hold the big dog blameless that this does not mean that the owenrs could not sue for vet bills in small claims court.

Small claims court is often not about who is legally right, but who is responsible for the bills, and the judge may not have a clue about dog behaviour.

And, saying sorry, and paying vet bills does admit fault. I tell my kids that all the time, never, say sorry in a situation that could turn into a legal battle. I wouldn't pay the vet bills, UNLESS, I had received an order to appear in court.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I tend to think the law regarding a type of situation like this varies greatly. Frankly, in some states or at least counties, they could care less about a dog on dog attack. Of course, if an animal bit a human it is a whole different story.

Minnesota is very liberal, even regarding a dog biting a human, as long as there is no serious injury. Wisconsin is a bit tougher, and I am told has no law requiring dogs being on leash. So the situation the OP described might play out a bit differently, perhaps more like Ohio.

Nonetheless, I have yet to see a case in which a dog on leash was attacked, and the owner of the leashed dog held libel.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

I feel so bad for you. I am sure the law is on your side.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope this works out the right way. 

Lets go to the extreme, the people are convinced that they can get something out of the loss of their dog (if it died). They consult a lawyer. If they are 100% honest about the situation where their dog was loose and attacked a leashed dog walking with its owner, then the lawyer would probably tell them they do not have any legal stance. They tell him the same dog attacked their Yorkie another time. He tells them that he will not take the case, but they may be able to sway a judge in small claims court. 

So they file a case -- usually costs about $25, but they are thinking that the Yorkie cost them $400 and the vet bill for this cost them $300, they are looking to get back about $700. A judge is assigned the case. 

The think you have to understand is that even judges SOMETIMES put human characteristics onto dogs. Sometimes people think that a big dog should not pick on or attack a little dog. It is just very possible that the judge is a small dog owner and has had a very close call with a nasty big dog. These are things we just cannot do anything about. 

I agree not to offer them anything and that you did everything right, specifically telling them that their dog has done this before. The thing to mention in court if it gets that far is that you avoided that street for over a year, and frankly, you should not have to avoid a public thouroughfare because they own aggressive dogs. When the dog attacked your dog, your dog was protecting its pack and itself -- they do not have any concept of big dog versus little dog. Be sure to mention that you were walking down a public sidewalk with your dog and children (who should never have had to witness such a frightening scene), and that your dog was leashed when the Yorkie attacked. 

Hoping that everyone tells the truth, and this never goes to court, but if it does, I hope the judge rules in your favor. 

It only takes one person sometimes to say something to convince someone that they ought to sue. Because of their power and their reputation, GSDs do not always come away in a good light.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaryW kenk, Holding the owners of the loose dog responsible is the way it should be, however, when I called my animal control to ask "what if", they told me that there would be an investigation, and the outcome is not a given. They also told me that if they hold the big dog blameless that this does not mean that the owenrs could not sue for vet bills in small claims court.


I agree, but for me, I have hundreds of hours invested in training and Max is a T.D.Inc dog and Lilah is going to be, and have told animal control this and the city, its just not right that someone can just let there dog out, and sue some else because of their careless actions, the new laws here now, you go in front of a board of people that really know nothing of dogs, and they deam your dog is viscous then you have to post a $500,000 bond to keep the dog in the city limits, and that applies whether its a dog vs dog or human vs dog


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## Sweet Chaos (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm not sure about the laws in your area, but I think you'll be ok since your dogs were on a leash, as long as you didn't go on their property. From what I understand you were on the street and another dog went after yours. Do they expect your dogs to just stand there and let another bite them? If you dog went after theirs it would be different, but from what it sounds like neither you nor your dogs did anything wrong. If they try to take legal action regarding the situation just make sure they know the details of the situation and I'm sure you'll be ok.

Sorry if I repeated any points that anyone else said. I didn't read all the responses, only the first few.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Well just to update: My husband called animal control yesterday morning and he said that the yorkie owners would be stupid to say anything, and if they did he was going to give them a fine. Chuck (animal control) has dealt with these people in the past. From other people complaining. 
And I went ahead after i got off work yesterday to file a complaint at the police department so they would have it on file. 
I guess from what the police department said it was up to ME on rather i wanted the police or animal control to give them a ticket. I said no this time, I hope i won't have to. But if i see them even so much as walking down the street by themselves i will file the charges. I am just so ticked off that i can't even walk down my own darn street for crying out loud. 
But i have not heard anything from them and hope i don't.

Thanks for the support

Andrea


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: amd1Chuck (animal control) has dealt with these people in the past. From other people complaining.


Good! He's probably issued other tickets and I think you should call the police/AC whoever back and say you changed your mind. Enough tickets and the owners will either wise up and train the dog or get rid of the little pest.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

Excellent news


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## Sweet Chaos (Apr 1, 2009)

I think you should file for the ticket, not to get back at the owner, but to maybe get them to keep the dogs inside. You can't blame the dogs for the encounter, they're just doing what dogs do. What if they get out and get hit by a car or something? The owners need to step up and start taking better care of their animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if their dog needed vet care, then you do not need to add insult to injury. I am glad that you contacted them and they have a record. This should set your mind at ease about them trying to sue you. They were apologetic and their dog is paying for their stupidity. I would leave well enough alone this time. No reason to make an enemy at this point in my opinion.


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## cthemrun (Jan 4, 2009)

I would leave it alone also at this point, you now have the necessary key to open the door if something were to happen...


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Glad things worked out they way they should. I agree with the other poster that a hurt dog and vet bills are a good wake up call for the owner to be in control of his dogs.

When I called animal control to ask my "what if" question, as I mentioned before they said it would be on a case by case basis. They also said that it would depend if any reports were on file (and how many) on any of the dogs invovled. 

My conclusion was that if this were to happen to us, no matter what the outcome, I would file a report with animial control, so there is an exisiting record. Prior to reading several incidents lately I would have acted "next time".


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: amd1The last time this happened i called animal control and got no help at all because he is lazy.


Glad to see Animal Control wasn't "lazy" like last time. Guess opinions have changed now


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## ceardach (Apr 11, 2008)

Law or not, leashed or not, around your children or not, your dog should not be 1) biting other dogs, 2) shaking other dogs he has bitten.

Yes, small dogs are notoriously untrained. People notoriously have no clue how to train and control their dogs. The onus is on those of us who own large dogs that are prone to protective reactions. 

I am going to guess that you are not walking your dog correctly. You have a reactive dog (this incident didn't occur in a vacuum, I am positive you have other instances of reactions), and he should be walked on a short leash when in public areas. A large dog should not be able to bend down to bite a small dog unless that dog virtually jumped into its mouth (of which, I am doubtful), because the leash should be too short, and you should always have a tight grip.

As soon as you heard the owner cry out for Rocky, you should have pulled your dog towards you so his neck was virtually glued to your hip. He has a bite history. Regaining control of him was your priority.

You allowed your daughter to walk a dog she could not control while you walked a dog you could barely control. This exasperated the situation. You then chose to try to regain control of the small dog with no bite history, over the big dog with a bite history -- that was the wrong decision. Your dog has a bite history. Regaining control of that dog was your priority.

If you cannot control your dog with a leash, then you must get him a muzzle. What if it is a child who runs screaming happily at him? (which has happened to me) 

Keep him muzzled when in public until either 1) you've trained away his reactivity, or 2) you learn to control him with a leash. You should then always keep him muzzled when you are distracted (two kids and two dogs is borderline impossible to contain).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ceardachI am going to guess that you are not walking your dog correctly. You have a reactive dog (this incident didn't occur in a vacuum, I am positive you have other instances of reactions),


I guess you are psychic since you wrote "I am positive you have other instances of reactions"??









If you had taken the time to read the other threads by the original poster you would have read:



> Originally Posted By: amd1Cause when we finished our walk yesterday, we seen plenty of other small dogs on leash and he just wanted to smell them.





> Originally Posted By: ceardachA large dog should not be able to bend down to bite a small dog unless that dog virtually jumped into its mouth (of which, I am doubtful), because the leash should be too short, and you should always have a tight grip.


So you think a dog should be walked so that their head cannot move at all?? Jeesh.


I'm tired of living in a society where we punish the people that ARE following the rules because of those that don't.

If I'm walking my dog, on leash and under control and another dog charges (running, barking aggressively) right into my dog - if that other dog gets bite and/or killed I will be sad but I will NOT feel one IOTA of responsibility.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow!

If your dog is loose, and runs at my dog who is leashed, barking aggressively, one dog may go away bitten or worse. 

All but one of my puppies has a CGC which has a specific test for dogs to be approched by another dog and person. All but the puppies have been shown at dog shows, meaning they have been standing/sitting politely while other dogs were being walked, trained, worked with on lead and off lead (in the ring). 

But they are dogs not humans. They do not see things the way we do. If a four year old comes up to you with a toy gun and shouts "Bang!" you see just that. If a vertically challenged person comes up to you with a gun that appears to be real and says "Your wallet or your life!" That is more what your dog is seeing. They do not think they are being a bully, or that they should give smaller dogs a puppy license. If a vertically challenged dog comes up to yours yelling, "GET THE HECK OFF OF MY BLOCK OR I WILL KILL YOU!", the dog has every right to protect himself. 

Dog Aggression DOES NOT EQUAL People Aggression.

Frankly, I do not see this dog as "Dog Aggressive" even if it did bite this dog. Dog aggressive dogs go balistic when they see any dog outside of its own pack. 

Some dogs just do not like dogs up in their face. Their way of coping may be a nip or a bite or a growl or a bark. It does not mean they are dog aggressive, it means they do not like being approached aggressively. The problem here is what is often seen is one dog "just being friendly" and another dog over-reacting. This is because people are very poorly educated in doggy body language and behavior. 

It is possible that people can get bit when they try to separate two dogs fighting. But your analogy of a four year old is not realistic here.

Just because your dog is a Yorkie and my dog is a GSD, does not mean that my dog is the dominant or aggressive dog in the twain. It could be the exact opposite. 

It is up to BOTH parties to leash their dog. Yes, a dog CAN be leashed an out of control -- that is when it literally drags its owner half a block to attack another animal. That is not what happened here.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Thank you Laurie.....The fact of the matter is there are some people that say i have a dog that is aggressive...Well from my understanding a german shepherd is bred, to protect. Well that is exactly what my boy did was protect his family. I dont' think it was wrong. Now if he had just walked up and grabbed this little dog and shook it like he did, it woudl be a whole different scenario.

But even after the attack, we passed by one or two other small dogs and he was great, we passed people walking, children on bikes and all he wanted to do was smell and play.
There is no rule saying that i can't take two dogs for a walk and that my kids can't walk them. 

I am really tired of people telling me my dog or i am a terrible person because my dog did exactly what he was bred to do. There are so many people that spend thousands of dollars and hours to train there dog not to react to this or that, well thats not right. If at that moment it is what the dog was suppose to do then he should do it. Especilally if he is protecting his family. Because i believe that one of these days one of those perfect dogs will snap and do something he is not suppose to do. Then he will be deemed a viscious dog. Because he was taught to never ever react.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Should a 50 pound child walk a 120 pound dog that has extreme prey drive and will drag the child along to get what he wants? No. 

Can a child walk a dog that is under good control with a parent present? I say sure. 

I would not want a young kid to take my GSD down the street. What if there was a fight, would the kid know what to do? 

I think what you did is fine. 

I train my dogs not to react to other dogs because I want them at shows. However, if a dog comes right up and makes an aggressive move, then my dogs are not necessarily going to back down.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: amd1 but i had to grab Billye cause valley was trying to go after this thing that was coming after us, and she was dragging billye.


i think its ok to have a child walking a dog with a parent, but if i read this right the child was being dragged by a dachsund and you had to intervene. that is not a child who has the dog under control or is even capable of handling that dog.

when i walk my gsd and a dog charges out, i do bring her next to me so that there will be no contact with the dog (i mean she is pasted to my side until we are beyond said dog). i trust my dog, but as this incident demonstrates, there are irresponsible owners and there are questionable laws/judges who could turn any type of incident into a liability for the responsible owner.

dont get me wrong, i put the entire responsibility on the other dog owner, but unfortunately we all have to be proactive because there are so many clueless owners out there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry but a dachsund weighs all of what, 12 or 15 pounds? My 2 year old niece could probably manage that much dog at the end of the leash. 

But in the middle of a fight, dogs are nuts. Sorry. No one expects a dog to come right up into them when they are walking down the street. 

Do we have to be ready for it, I suppose so. Should we have to be? No! 

Let's turn it around. Let's say the OP was walking a Yorkie and her daughter was also walking a Yorkie. Now lets say that a GSD and a small dog come flying out at them. Lets say that the GSD circled, growled aggressively, and moved right into the Yorkies. Now lets say the Yorkie BIT the GSD for all it was worth, before the owner grabbed it by the tail and removed it. 

Would we even be having a conversation???


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Do we have to be ready for it, I suppose so. Should we have to be? No!


exactly. we've all seen enough to know we have to be prepared for irresponsible owners even if we wish we didnt have to.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I had to think of this thread today. Walking my girl this yellow lab without a collar ran RIGHT up to us and *THANKFULLY* all it did was run up and lay down next to us and they were very playful together. 

All I could think was what if that dog WASN'T a good dog and gave off "bad" vibes. There is only so much you can do when you are confronted with an off the leash dog.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well we have not really been on any walks since this all went down. But yesterday the hubby, kids and i decided to go fishing. So we took ryder with us. He has never been so i thought it would be a good idea. I bought him a 10 ft. leash, and put him on his harness. There was two places to go, we decided to go to what is called lake froman. U never catch anything but moss there but worth a shot. So we pull up, and immediately i see an elderly gentleman carring a leash and i see his little corgi somewhat behind him. I get out go around the blazer, and was getting ryders leash wound up so he couldn't just take off. I was not worried about him attacking the other dog. My hubby got out and about that time the old man says, "do u have a dog in there" i reply "yes he is a german shepherd". He tried to get ahold of his dog to put it on a leash. Well his dog had other ideas. He came over to meet ryder. My hubby and i were both there petting ryder, telling him it was ok, they were sniffing each other out, just checking things out. Well the little corgi wanted to play. Ryder doesn't like to play with other dogs. The guy says is your dog female? I said no, but he is neutered...WELL then he says oh well mines not and he can get a bit snippy. SO i thinking great....Well he finally gets the dog on his leash..Ryder was turned around at this point away from the other dog, looking around. As soon as the old man got his dog on his leash this little sucker jumps at my ryder and bit him in the butt. Ryder turned, but luckily we were there to stop him from doing anything. 
I know he should not have reacted. The guy says my wife wants me to neuter him, but i want to breed them. I get so leary now after the second attack with the yorkie, even though ryder was just doing his job....But i gotta be honest i was a little nervous but in my mind he did great this time. And he was on his harness, and i had better control over him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The moment the fellow said his dog can be a bit snippy, YOU should have protected your dog. 

A dog can only take so much. If he thinks you cannot protect him, HE WILL BECOME DOG AGGRESSIVE.

I really do not care how much of a jerk this idiot was for not controlling their dog. You have now been warned, the world is FULL OF JERKS. 

Please, please do not let your dog get bit by another dog. Court systems are stupid. IF your dog defends himself against a smaller dog a jury somewhere might decide that he is at fault. 

Personally, I would give up on allowing your dog to sniff, and play with other dogs, unless you KNOW the people and the dog, and then be careful. 

I am sorry you are going through this. I am not trying to be harsh, just thinking of your dog.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: amd1I bought him a 10 ft. leash, and put him on his harness...He tried to get ahold of his dog to put it on a leash. Well his dog had other ideas. He came over to meet ryder... My hubby and i were both there petting ryder, telling him it was ok, they were sniffing each other out, just checking things out... WELL then he says oh well mines not and he can get a bit snippy. As soon as the old man got his dog on his leash this little sucker jumps at my ryder and bit him in the butt. Ryder turned, but luckily we were there to stop him from doing anything.


I edited out some portions to get my main points across:

1. Taking your dog to a place he's never been, having just come out of the previous incident on a 10 ft. leash and a harness is not having control over your dog. That is why most parks, etc. require a leash "no more than 6 ft. in length." You cannot obtain control over your dog's head with him wearing a harness. 

2. Knowing that Ryder just had an incident with one small dog (although not with the others), I would not have taken ANY chances with him around ANY unknown dogs until additional training had occurred (as was recommended by several posters). 

3. The guy's dog wasn't cooperating with being leashed. The guy said, "he can be a bit snippy." Those would be two red flags for me to say, "ya know what, I think we should move to another spot." 

As selzer said, the world is full of idiots. I like how people think their little uncontrollable dogs will "play nice" with a large dog. They think it's "cute" when their little dogs nip at the "large dogs." That is until the large dog has had enough. Then it's the large dog's fault for doing whatever (growling, showing teeth, or worse). 

If Ryder was my dog, I would definitely work...with a professional trainer....on proper ways of redirecting his attention, etc. before taking him out and about and around little dogs again.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well at the time the corgi snipped ryder his owner was trying to gather him so they could leave. We were trying to walk around the back of my blazer while they went around the front. As far as protecting him, i really think my hubby and i both were. Maybe i didn't make it sound that way. My hubby and i were both right there with ryder, everything was going alright until we went to go our different directions and i guess we just got out of place. I had him on a 10 ft lead, but at the time this happened i had him rolled up to my leg. He did not approach, the corgi did. As the corgi approched my hubbby and i were telling him it was ok, be nice. And he was doing good.

I know you can't control his head with a harness but i can handle him better in a harness. I would love to get him some training with a professional but i do not have the money for that right now. I can say he is my only dog now. I placed my doxie yesterday so i can give ryder my full attention, and so she would not feel left out. She went to a great home though, with exactly what she loves to be a 15 pound lap dog, ALL the time. 

But anyway, I thank everyone for your suggestions. I just don't want to make him feel like he is the bad dog, because he isn't.

Andrea


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good gracious we are not trying to make your dog out to be a bad dog, or you to be a bad owner. We are trying to help you avoid a serious problem with possible consequences for the breed.

As a pet parent or dog owner or dog guardian, whatever your poison, it is easy to find excuses for our dog's behavior. In your case, I really do not think your dog has a serious problem, yet. I think that the attack on the Yorkie was understandable, but not desireable. 

I think you can turn this crap around by proving to your dog that YOU are in charge, YOU will not let anything bad happen to him. The BS with the Corgi was a missed opportunity. Worse than that, by allowing the Corgi to bite him, you PROVED to him that you are not able to protect him. 

If you want a dog that is comfortable romping and playing with dogs in a dog park, you cannot afford to NOT start working immediately with a competent trainer. 

Until then, I really think you need to keep your dog away from other dogs. If the corgi is approaching you, move away or tell the owner to keep his dog away from yours. Tell him that your dog has already been attacked by one of those viscious monsters if you like. (GSD owners get THAT enough.) 

Avoid areas where you know there might be loose dogs. And if a loose dogs runs up, get between the dog and your dog. Kick and shout if necessary, or spray the little bugger with dog repellent (they sell it for cyclists and it works). 

At home practice NILIF -- non confrontational methods of solidifying your position of leader in your dog's mind. Simple stuff like going out of doors first, making him sit for his dinner, calling him over for pets instead of petting him when he demands it. When your dog perceives your confidence as leader, he will have confidence in you and he will not feel he needs to protect you or himself. 

Good luck.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

i don't think you are making me or my dog out to be bad.


One we don't have Dog parks around here at all. There is nothing around here for dogs or kids for that fact.

Two I am going to try and turn this around, as i don't like how he has reacted.

Three i am going to have to remember to move in between my dog and another as there are so many strays that run our streets it is pathetic.

Four What exactly do NILIF stand for? But from what you have said on that makes perfect sense and i never thought of it. We always let him go out first. 


Thank you Selzer. Any other info you can give i would much appreciate it.

Andrea


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

this wasn't related to dogs but our horse trainer made a good point to our kids after an incident at a show.

Do NOT be afraid/uncomfortable to tell other dog owners to "Please back up. I'm training my dog" or "Please wait to approach" or just simply "Stay Away" It doesn't have to be mean or even abrupt but what you are doing is more important than the little dog 'making friends'.

I believe our horse trainer yelled at all the other riders to get "Get away" after the horse she was riding got kicked and was scared out of him mind but the same philosophy goes here too.

NILIF = Nothing In Life Is Free

I made a woman mad a couple of weeks ago. We were eating pizza at the show and I told her Jax couldn't have the pizza on the ground that the woman had thrown there. A few minutes later I gave Jax a piece of crust from my hand. She was very nasty when she said "I thought you said she couldn't have any" I told her "No. I said she couldn't just take it off the ground when she wanted" (Leave It if it's laying on the ground. You can have it if I give it to you.) OH well!! It's MY dog!!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Nothing
In 
Life
Is 
Free

The dog has to work for what they get. We practice it around here and it works wonders for the dog respecting you and understanding what their roll in the family is.

My Morgan is almost 8, she's an obedient girl with lovely behavior (for the most part) so I'd been pretty slack with her for the 3 years between when Luther died and when Otto came home. They catch onto fast, or in Morgan's case remember, what NILIF is all about.

It might be a bit of stuff to remember at first but it so pays off in the long run.

Also, if you can't afford a formal training center, look into an AKC club (akc.org) or a 4H club. Your older child could work with him in 4H, which is great fun, I used to do it starting when I was about 8 (I think, maybe 9 or 10)


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I made a woman mad a couple of weeks ago. We were eating pizza at the show and I told her Jax couldn't have the pizza on the ground that the woman had thrown there. A few minutes later I gave Jax a piece of crust from my hand. She was very nasty when she said "I thought you said she couldn't have any" I told her "No. I said she couldn't just take it off the ground when she wanted" (Leave It if it's laying on the ground. You can have it if I give it to you.) OH well!! It's MY dog!!


Good for you! I hate it when people throw food on the ground for my dogs. Morgan knows better than to take it but Otto, I'm always worried he'll eat something bad of the street so we're working on THAT.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't even consider doing therapy with her if she snags things off the ground, which she does quite frequently. I just can't take the risk that she'll eat some cumadin. I don't know what she ate last weekend in the park restroom but if the smell of the place was any indication...well I'm glad she has all her shots...I felt like I needed some vaccinations after that.

Andrea...it's YOUR dog. Don't be afraid to tell someone to back off and then explain, from a distance, why. People quite often don't understand when you are working on something specific but will when you explain and if they don't...OH well! It's YOUR dog!!


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> Do NOT be afraid/uncomfortable to tell other dog owners to "Please back up. I'm training my dog" or "Please wait to approach" or just simply "Stay Away" It doesn't have to be mean or even abrupt but what you are doing is more important than the little dog 'making friends'.


This is great advise. 

I have used this several times when I am training Dakota and people wander up to her with or without dogs. If it is obvious that another owner wants their dog to greet mine I will tell them I do not allow her to socialize with other dogs that she meets and that I'm picking up my speed to ensure she does not greet them as we pass. Some have been offended, but I would rather a stranger be offended and have a well trained dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nothing In Life Is Free, is a way of life for people with dogs who are pushy, or are dominant, or are timid, or are protective, or are perfectly normal. 

Google it and you should find it explained a whole lot better than I can. 

Lots of people here use it without even thinking about it. It is a way of life. 

The dog works for pets and praise and food and going out and playing. The thing is that the dog LOVES to work. The work is not hard. But by having the dog obey a command and then praising or petting or feeding the dog, you are proving that you hold the key to all the good things in life, all the resources. The leader has the resources. When praised and treated for doing the right thing, the dog's confidence increases. A confident dog is happy dog. A confident dog does not need to be protective all the time. 

A fearful dog is much more likely to bite, be protective, be dog-aggressive, and engage in a variety of behaviors that make their owners want to scream. A fearful dog may be fearful and engage in poor behavior under only one type of stressor, like other dogs. The way to help a fearful dog is to build their confidence. We build their confidence by setting them up to succeed and then praising them for it. 

Weekly obedience classes will improve the bond between you and your dog. Your dog will gain confidence in himself and in you as the leader. You will gain confidence and trust your dog. You will see (but not sniff) other dogs that are also learning, and rub elbows with other owners who are also improving the bond they have with their dogs. These owners will most likely be more dog savy and more tolerant than your average pedestrian. 

I am not a fan of dog parks or letting dog "get to know" each other. GSDs NEED to be a member of your family. If that currently shelters only humans, then your dog does not NEED to ever play with or sniff another dog. 

Having a dog who will walk calmly at your side, ignoring other dogs and looking to you for what you expect of him is the goal. 

In a family setting, NILIF needs to be used by all members of the family. It is not hard, but you may have to help the kids understand that they need to go out of the door first, and they need to have to dog sit before throwing his toy, etc. The idea is that your dog is at the bottom of the list. This is a great place to be for a dog -- no worries. 

Because your dog at this point might engage in a dog fight with a stray, I do not think it is safe for your child to walk your dog on their own. Even when your dog is confident in your leadership skills, he may not feel as confident with a child. You do not want your kid to have to separate him and another dog. It is really traumatic. So YES to 4H, great idea, but plan to be right there with your kid the whole way.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

we started our training with ryder last night. 
He was not happy at all with the change of routine, he cried the whole way. 
We started off by him going out the door last.(that upset him) then we made him walk right by our sides (hubby and I ) while the kids walked out front. ( that really upset him ), then when we got him home he was the last one in the door, generally he is the first.
After he got inside I put him into a sit and took his choke off, and he just kept running around sniffing everything and everybody until he found all the kids then he laid down for a rest. So it was a good but short walk, because of the rain. I am trying to find one of those real short leads but can't find one anywhere.

Question...Should i put him into a sit while we are waiting on traffic? Or just crossing the street?

Also i make him sit and stay until i release him when he has to go out and potty, and before i let him in. Is this a good idea?



Andrea


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I make mine sit whenever I come to a street crossing. I guess my hope is that someday if they ever are loose for some unforseen reason, they will hesitate before going into the street. 

Having your dog know that you are in control of the walk and of potty time is a good thing. Where you go, where he walks, what he does, etc. I think you are on the right track. 

I am a little surprised with the crying, but there may be a bit of an adjustment period. You are definitely doing the right thing by walking out doors first and having him controlled at your side when walking. German shepherds are too big, and too powerful to be thinking that they are running the show. This is probably a pup that I would keep off the furniture for a while too if he is allowed up on them, and then only when invited. The leader gets to choose where the followers rest, the leader gets the good places.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

I do use the "please back up, I'm training my dog" or "please do not pet my dog, I'm training with him" (for the parents who think it's 'okay' that their kids go running up to a strange dog). 

We have been doing NILF on our two since Day 1. We figured with a 50+ lbs Pit Bull and an 80+ lbs GSD, it would be wise







I think Grimm enjoys NILF as I've noticed he likes structure. Cash just tolerates it


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well we have just started using this last nite and when i make him sit/stay, he is already getting to where he is watching me for my command. This is so great, i enjoy this so much.

As far as the crying goes, i know what thiat is from. He wasn't happy that he wasn't with his kids, he loves his kids. IF my 5 year old is outback on the trampoline, and he is inside he will whine and cry until you let him out with her. Then he just lays by the trampoline. HE is fine with that.

Thanks everyone.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well we found one of the short training leads. I bought that cause i thought it woudl be easier to keep him at my side with it. bought me a fanny pack, treats. We went for a walk last night. I was so frustrated. He woudl not quit pulling to save my life. I had him on his harness, my hubby wont let me buy a pinch collar, the choke collar doesn't work. He just kept pulling. The kids were not with us, it was just hubby, me and ryder. Although most of the time we got him to sit at the crosswalks. We did encounter a few people walking or riding bikes and was able to put him in a sit/stay until they passed and he did wonderful. Right now the problem is focus, apparently we bought sucky treats(lol). Cause he woudl just take one every now and again when i offered. We got about 1/2 block away from the house and at this time i decided to hold him by the harness itself to where he was right next to me and he could not go anywhere but next to me. And the next thing i hear is a couple of barks. I am thinking oh great. But we just kept going my hubby was on ryders left side where the dog could not get to him. Well i look up and it is a shih-poo called princess, (i work with the owner of this dog). She came running up barking and stuff and ryder cocked his ears up, and jeff tried getting princess back, adn i told him just kick her. I was not going thru this again. Ryder and i just kept going. He did excellent. He didn't even try to get to her. As we were walking towards the house princess was behind us the whole time. He kept trying to look behind us but i woudl not let him, just kept his focus forward(that was the hardest) but he did wonderfully on that aspect.

Question, how do i keep his focus on us when we stop or we are trying to get him to sit, because he will just look the other way. 
At home he does great, he focuses great. But when we are out, forget that.

Should i try just putting him on his regular collar?

Andrea


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

What the heck is up with all the little dogs running free in your neighborhood?? 

Try some high value treats like hotdogs or cheese.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

yeah, i know. And i thought it was bad where i use to live. Now we have moved up in the neighborhood. I thought it woudl be better. Animal wise.


Yeah i am going to have to try so hot dogs or something.

Andrea


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

With Kaiser the thing that really helped us with the pulling is changing direction every time he started pulling. We had a Gentle Leader harness which worked great also, but when I went back to the collar he'd still pull, so I did the changing directions whenever he started pulling.

It will take you forever to go anywhere, but it works! Even if you just get down one block the first few times, keep doing it. And don't change the same direction each time - turn around, go to the right, to the left, etc. whenever he starts pulling - he will eventually start looking to you for direction because he won't know what way you're going to go next!

The neighbors will think you're crazy, but so what. Good luck!


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

amd1

And what is up with the froo froo dogs all having froo froo names in the neighborhood, too? *geez* No one ever calls and complains about little dogs at large, but heaven forbid a larger dog be at large, right?

Glad to see that Ryder ignored "Princess."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I was a kid our shepherd hound mix was called "Princess." It is on the list of the most common dog names. 

Nothing wrong with Princess. Foo Foo - yeah.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

southern thistle

Believe me if my ryder was to ever get out, i can guarntee. The police would be here in a heartbeat, now AC knows me and my dog. He knows if they get out, i am right on top of it. Which none of my dogs have gotten out for over a year now. But i am down to just ryder. It is actuaally quite peaceful. I didn't think that was possible. 

Know what to do about neighbor dogs?????


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well we took our walk last night.

First let me say, although i have not been diagnosed, i think i have RA in my hands. Most of the time they are stiff and hurt all the time.

Anyway, we could not do the every time he pulls walk the other direction cause i had three kids with me. So instead everytime he pulled we stopped until he relaxed. Well again ryder and i were at the back of the pack, and my hubby and three kids were in front. Ryder went apesh**. To the point of barking a couple of times. He will stop and sit at the crosswalks, he will stop, stay and wait for me to release him at the door. But he will not calm down and quit pulling when it comes to him not being by his kids. My hands hurt so bad today, because he kept pulling so bad. 
He will even sit and stay while other people pass us on bicycles, and walking. He does wonderful on all this, except the pulling to get to the kids. The closer we get to home, the worse it gets as well. 

On the brightside we had to rat terriers(who are normally tied up outside) come running out at us. My hubby had him this time. THe one turned around and went home the other wanted to come up and sniff. I don't know how but ryder ended up inbetween my hubbys legs, and my hubby told the terrier to go away and it backed up, well i walked up and told it to go home, and it did. Ryder didn't react act at all. So that was a plus.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

> Quote:Anyway, we could not do the every time he pulls walk the other direction cause i had three kids with me.


 <span style="color: #000066">Do you all have to go together every time you take a walk? No offense, and I know how important family time is, but this isn't something that's going to be cured with one walk and of course you're not going to change directions with 3 kids and a husband doing the same, so maybe you could go by yourself and work on it? 

Or, if he's only pulling to get to the kids and doesn't do it when the kids aren't around, try having the kids and hubby walk behind you and the dog. Or have one or two of the kids hold onto the leash with you if possible - tell them you're helping Ryder learn to walk nice and they'll feel like they're doing something. Good luck! </span>


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

oh we don't all have to go. Just like taking a walk together.

i put the kids in front so ryder won't feel like he is the leader of the pack......I thought having the kids behind us was making him think he was leader. I personally would prefer the kids be behind us. I am so confused now.

Whom should i have in front? I want him to know that i am leader. And we will protect him and the kids.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My kids are always either beside or behind me. We had an incident with a pair of pugs last summer - when my twins were in the stroller infront of me and my older son was walking next to me. One of the pugs grabbed my son's ankle but he was able to kick it off before the owner came strolling up to get very unkind piece of my mind.

Now, the dogs are in front - I don't think it causes any leadership issues. I'm the leader, the dogs respect that and I don't make the dogs walk in a perfect heel, although I could and they know that.


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## Ammit (Oct 23, 2008)

Ok first of all what happened happened. It's over and you can't fix it. You didn't know he still lived there, but you didn't turn around and leave after the first dog ran after you. The initial attack wasn't your fault and the second dog should have been leashed, but accidents happen. How do you think this man feels? Well I guarantee you he feels as self righteous as you do. Is it right? Absolutely not. Can it be fixed before things get out of hand? Maybe. Offer to pay the vet bills if you really are worried about your dog. File a report now and quit wasting time writing on a forum, do that later. 
Laziness and stinginess is no excuse on either your part or the other owner.
Take your dog by vehicle to another part of town to walk him. We have to do that here because of the traffic. Or take him to a dog park. As of right now your dog has bitten 2 different dogs on different occasions so at this point you will be negligent for walking your dog past this house. It would seem like you are trying to goad these people at this point. Leash or not your dog bit his and the court will side with the other owner because this man and daughter can and definitely will lie their butts off to get money out of you. It is human nature. He may not care enough to file suit this time but if you aren't more responsible now it will happen again. 
Go ahead with training if you feel he needs it but please use your head and stay away from his house. Try to make peace with him but leave Ryder home. Find a new place to walk unless you are going to act responsibly by filing a report and walking on the other side of the road or in a different direction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ammit, disagree completely. You have only read the first post so you have no clue that we are way ahead of that point. 

No one should be allowed to have loose dogs running up to leashed dogs. If they do, and they get attacked, oh well.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Ammit How do you think this man feels? Well I guarantee you he feels as self righteous as you do.


LOL Ammit, from the tone of your post, the person here that probably feels the most self-righteous is you! 

And a person should be able to walk down the road, with or without a dog, without being rushed and attacked and threatened by loose dogs or angry people!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ozzymamaThis is a very unfortunate incident for you, your dogs and your children, but I am a big believer in you protect your dogs. You have to be in care and control of your dogs at all times, just like a motor vehicle.


Why are you finding fault with the OP? She had her dog under control, the other *unleashed* dog attacked her *leashed* dog.



> Quote:You really have to train them to be non-reactive, especially in situations like this. It's the only way to protect them. If you fail that, you fail them.


So, she should train her dog to be a sitting duck for when a dog big enough to hurt hers is attacking and her dog should do nothing?



> Quote:I think you need to get copies of your vet paperwork, take it to the owner of the little dog along with a cheque for the vet bills. It wasn't your dog's fault, but it sure was yours. They are our responsibility, our obligation and if we fail them, we don't just fail one dog, we fail every other dog of that breed or similar breed in the community, state/province and country.


Again, why are you bypassing the responsibility of the yorkie owner? The OP doesn't owe diddly squat to this person. The yorkie owner is the one that continually allows this to happen.



> Quote: It is always human responsibility.


Yeah, the OWNER OF THE YORKIE.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveI'm not sure why you didn't turn the yorkie into a football. No dog will ever attack mine without me protecting him.
> That is probably why your dog acts badly in these situations, nobody's protecting him! Last time he had to defend himself, and this time as well.
> 
> Just get him into some classes, and as much as I hate it, either take him a different route or muzzle, because if he kills the innocent little yorkie in front of it's home, what do you think the judge will say?


As the owner of 4 yorkies over a 20 year period of time - have you ever tried to catch/kick one when they're all worked up? This is the same with all little dogs. They're darn near impossible to catch when they're chasing around and all frenzied up it's even harder.

The yorkie was NOT innocent, the YORKIE was at fault and more than that the YORKIE'S OWNER. What if it had been a rottweiler or a great dane or any other big dog that had attacked. Would you still be saying it was the OP's fault? No, her dog would have been protecting itself from another charging dog. It doesn't matter that the charging dog was a little dog, dogs don't decipher size, they decipher the action of the other dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Riley's Mom, how well put! 

If you turn this around and the sheps are loose and the sheps run up to and attack a leashed Yorkie and the Yorkie bites the shep, is there anyone who would blame the Yorkie owners for their dog biting back when attacked???

Folks we have to get away from the very human thought that big dogs should never be aggressive toward small dogs regardless of who instigated it, who is uncontrolled, etc. 

Whenever possible, we the humans should step in front of our dogs and back a marauding dog up, use pepper spray, carry a stick, or do something to avoid the fight. But where there is more than one attacking dog, the chances that your pup is going to get away without any type of confrontation would not be very good. 

The OP does not hold any fault here. And suggesting she offer to pay vet bills for their dog is questionable. If she did, it MAY be enough to sway a judge or jury into believing she WAS at fault in some way. I wouldn't offer anything, bad idea in my opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was replying to your last post. This one we were writing at the same time, sorry for duplicating some stuff.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3Whenever something like this happens, file a report FIRST. Don't let someone else call the police, you want to be the ONE to do it. The "my dog was attacked" when you were the first to make a claim goes a lot farther than the police knocking on your door later and asking questions why your dog "attacked" another dog.


Although I totally agree with you, unfortunately when the cop hears "my dog (large GSD) was attacked by another dog (3-7lbs worth of dog)" unless they have a good understanding of dog behavior - are going to be laughing their a$$es off - maybe not to your face but in their minds. I'm not saying don't report it, I'm saying just be prepared for the "you've got to be kidding me" look on their face.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaIMaybe you could practice kicking field goals in your backyard? Become the next Adam Vinitieri. Go for the 50+ yarder


Unfortunately, then she leaves herself open to be blamed, ticketed or arrested (or any combination) for animal cruelty. Not that I woudln't do it myself because I would. 

I hate it when dogs come charging and one of my biggest pet peeves are dogs that are not leashed/confined and loose in their yards. I don't give a hoot how well trained they are, they are DOGS and that means they have animal instincts which can kick in at any time.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KimcMAI had spray similar to what mailmen carry (stopped working because I've never used it)which I need to replace. I intend to carry it with me and use it if needed.


Be careful w/that stuff. When you spray, trust me, your victim is not the only one going to be inhaling, wearing and having sting-y pain in your eyes with that stuff.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Quoteon't be too sure about that one. Leashed dog vs non-leashed dog. No way would it even be up for debate in a courtroom. Especially if there is any semblance of a leash-law for her city/county.


In a perfect world, yes, but don't be to sure on that either. There are still way to many people that automatically consider GSD's mean and Yorkies cute and cuddly and then there's the size difference ... I wish it were as simple as you feel it would be, I just don't trust it would be. To many people are uneducated when it comes to dog actions and dog behavior.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ceardachI am going to guess that you are not walking your dog correctly. You have a reactive dog (this incident didn't occur in a vacuum, I am positive you have other instances of reactions), and he should be walked on a short leash when in public areas. A large dog should not be able to bend down to bite a small dog unless that dog virtually jumped into its mouth (of which, I am doubtful), because the leash should be too short, and you should always have a tight grip.


Sorry, I can't agree with this part. I used to use the short leashes with my dogs and had lots of problems with reactivity. Long very expensive story short - new trainer tells me get rid of the short leash, that's part of the problem and so far he's been right. You can always tighen up a longer leash, but if all you have is 18in-2ft of leash or so, you can't make that any longer. For my dog, being on a short leash contributed to his other-dog reactiveness and to him being more up-tight and anxious than need be so even around people he was a bit on the to-tightly-wound side.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Wooww no way should the OP be paying for any vet bills. If anything, the other owner should be paying for training classes in case their dog has left the OP's dog with any issues. If I run down the street screaming, yelling and try to punch someone in the face and they punch me back, I don't think their mom should come and give me money for medical bills. 

I don't think a dog would be considered reactive or aggressive for fighting back. Only a robot dog would stand there and allow itself to be bitten by another dog and do absolutely nothing about it. Training your dog to stand there and take it isn't taking control of the situation OR protecting your dog either.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> As the owner of 4 yorkies over a 20 year period of time - have you ever tried to catch/kick one when they're all worked up? This is the same with all little dogs. They're darn near impossible to catch when they're chasing around and all frenzied up it's even harder.


Which is why they need to be trained not to go attack other dogs or bolt out of the house an to recall, something a lot of small dog owners don't seem to see a need for. No dog is easy to catch if it bolts.



> Quote:The yorkie was NOT innocent, the YORKIE was at fault and more than that the YORKIE'S OWNER. What if it had been a rottweiler or a great dane or any other big dog that had attacked. Would you still be saying it was the OP's fault? No, her dog would have been protecting itself from another charging dog. It doesn't matter that the charging dog was a little dog, dogs don't decipher size, they decipher the action of the other dog.


I had it happen to me just a couple weeks ago, the yorkie lives across the street and a door down. Luckily my girl didn't take it seriously and didn't react. Had she I would have stopped her, I'm big enough to lift 70lbs of flailing GSD into the air if I need to though. I wouldn't walk a dog I couldn't control.

I just stood there in the middle of the street, blocking traffic, with the leash tight holding Hope close to the collar for control while the yorkie kept dashing in snarling and growling as 5 people tried to catch it. 

In my opinion if your worried about it, you should have reported them for a loose aggressive dog attack, because that's what the yorkie was. A loose aggressive dog. Surely against the law and probably an offense worth a ticket.

Make them go through quarantining it.

I tend to face down loose aggressive dogs of any size, take a stance to take them full on and do battle in kind. Not many dogs will charge up close to me.







You can't outrun em anyway, and any predator would rather attack from behind and tends to see a running thing as an invitation, always better to face em, look large and loud and do your worst IMO.

I well might have punted the yorkie away if it looked like my dog was going to grab it, or lifted her front feet off the ground by the leash.

Had some 40lb or so dog run at me and Hope charging full speed teeth showing, hackles and tail up this morning on a walk when I went down a street I haven't walked before, I turned towards it and leaned forward and looked it right in the eye and got ready to fight... It stopped about 50ft away and backed down.

Hope couldn't have cared less, I think she wanted to play with it.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Smith3Whenever something like this happens, file a report FIRST. Don't let someone else call the police, you want to be the ONE to do it. The "my dog was attacked" when you were the first to make a claim goes a lot farther than the police knocking on your door later and asking questions why your dog "attacked" another dog.
> ...


But when it happens again, there's a written record of the little dog's owner being legally irresponsible, and illegally allowing his aggressive dog to be loose and attack. It shows a pattern later if you need it.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KimcMAI had spray similar to what mailmen carry (stopped working because I've never used it)which I need to replace. I intend to carry it with me and use it if needed.
> ...


An air horn works pretty good as well I've been told... Or a cattle prod..


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I try to always remember to take my whistle with me. It's loud and shrill and gets attention, that might be another option.


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## Ammit (Oct 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Ammit How do you think this man feels? Well I guarantee you he feels as self righteous as you do.
> ...


While I Agree that people should be able to walk carefree that isn't reality. No I am not acting self righteous I am just stating that she needs to be more careful in the future.
It sounds like she is now taking more care in how she is walking her dog but at the same time things can happen. Being vigilant and knowing what to do isn't always easy when you are in the thick of the situation. But if in the future she should walk past this same house and god forbid her dog eats the yorkie and court is imminent I do think the other owner will lie their butts off to make her responsible. 

Metaphorically speaking If 2 times you went for a walk with your child alone and someone sitting in their own yard threw a rock at your child what would you do? You would probably lash out at them, normal. You would then probably report them? I would hope. 
So you would probably try to avoid that situation in the future even though what they did was wrong, correct? It's just common sense. Self righteous is thinking it's ok to continue putting your dogs in a potentially dangerous situation because what the other owner didn't do was wrong. So what, it happened already why would you want it to be able to happen again. That is my point. It could happen again so don't walk that way. Next time it could mean your dogs life or lots of money in legal fees.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

we do not walk that way anymore. Although anywhere we walk we have had several little dogs come up, but ryder has not reacted. Now rather that is because we as the owners are more AWARE, Or because he just isn't interested, cause they have not shown any threat. I don't know. But i am so relieved. We are doing training with ryder, on just ignoring things. And to focus. So it has actaully been fun. Alot of work, but fun.

Thanks again for everyones advice.

Andrea


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