# BYB - How to report them



## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

As many of you have been helping us through advice on our starving/aggressive puppy that we brought home with us Saturday night, to the vet on Monday, and are trying to bring back to life, we are now infuriated with the breeders we got the puppy from.

There are many red flags about these people. They were even trying to push the puppies off onto us at only 4.5 weeks.

I won't go through all of the awful details, but something needs to be done. I have a feeling that they're living in squaler and they do have another litter out there right now (if they haven't already tossed all of those puppies already too). 

It looks like the city they're in only has email to contact animal control  but my boyfriend wants the police or SOMEBODY to see the horrible condition of our puppy. In this case, a picture does nothing because he is covered in a huge coat of fur. 

The city is Kaufman, TX... though we are up in Carrollton, TX. Would we need to drive down to show the puppy physically or would this be a pointless trip if nothing can truly be done about these people?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Animal control is the one you'd contact, they have authority and knowledge. Nothing is pointless, do what you can to get the "breeder" called out on their practices. 
Stepping up for the voiceless is always a good thing, even if it is frustrating that you may not get the results you'd like.
Wish you luck!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I applaud you for seeking to get the situation rectified. It probably will be frustrating but the alternative of turning a head will just leave more animals in an abusive situation.

I would send an email to the animal control since they don't post a phone number and ask them to call you. I would also place a call to the sheriff's department down there. They may be more responsive in an animal abuse case than the police.

Keep us posted and bless you for doing this.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

If it's a case of just a bad breeder producing bad dogs, there is nothing you can do. This is why people must research and educate themselves before shopping for puppies.

If it is a case where the animals are abused or their living conditions are unacceptable under the law, then you contact animal control. It is their job to investigate and enforce those things.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I would request a letter from the vet that describes the condition of your pup. Personally, I would avoid any outside contact with my pup until it's health improves.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks, I've e-mailed animal control and got too impatient so I called the Sheriff's office and they took all of my detailed information, address, condition of the puppy, breeder's information, etc. and said animal control will be in contact with me shortly. 

They also recommended contacting the SPCA so I'm filling out a cruelty form with them now. I don't see any other way of submitting information to them about this... perhaps just calling.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

By the way, I also posted a warning to everybody on Craigslist because he's advertising the next litter.

He called while I was on the phone with animal control... he just texted me that what I'm doing is slander and he will sue me.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't believe what I said was slanderous in any way... 

RE: AKC German Shepherd Puppies (Kaufman)

It's just a fair warning to people still trying to buy from them.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> I don't believe what I said was slanderous in any way...
> 
> RE: AKC German Shepherd Puppies (Kaufman)
> 
> It's just a fair warning to people still trying to buy from them.


Just report/share exactly what you saw, not what you "think" he's doing. Also exactly what's going on healthwise with YOUR puppy now.

Sorry to hear about your little one


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Written text is considered libel not slander.

_slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory __spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as __written._ words or images

I don't see anything in your ad that screams libel, the only line that is questionable is "These people are unfit to care for animals". Everything else is proven fact.

Now, I would flag that ad (the breeders ad) for violation of fees (or whatever they call it).
A known breeder does not charge a "rehoming fee", they SELL their puppies, which I believe is a violation of Craigslists terms.
You really want to tick them off, keep flagging their ads.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Please never give him back


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> I don't believe what I said was slanderous in any way...
> 
> RE: AKC German Shepherd Puppies (Kaufman)
> 
> It's just a fair warning to people still trying to buy from them.


The only questionable part (slander/defamation) is the last where you say they refused to take him back...as that is not provable (I believe you!!) unless you have it in writing....

Poor poor puppy........I hope he makes it and learns some trust...

Lee


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm removing the ad for now, but here it is for reference.



> DO NOT BUY A PUPPY FROM THESE BACKYARD BREEDERS.
> 
> They handed over a puppy to us that was only 3 pounds when he should be over 10 pounds.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not removing it because I think I did anything wrong. I could have tore them to shreds and did not. 

I'm removing it because he said he wants to discuss this with us, but if this is going to be a flame war, then nothing will be accomplished.

He'll be more pissed anyway when Animal Control shows up at his house today.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

No worries, he is not going back to them. At the time, we wanted him to go back because he was clearly aggressive. Had the breeders been more receptive and willing to work with us, perhaps we would have given him back. But more red flags came up when they were not receptive to anything we were saying and claiming it was all normal and not willing to take him back. A GOOD breeder and somebody who cared would immediately take back their puppy. We didn't even ask for a refund. We simply asked if he would take back the puppy and he was very hesitant and the phone call ended. Was never contacted back... and was actually mistexted back "they're ridiculous lol".


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi, I posted on your other thread. I just wanted to know how the little guy is doing today?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> If it's a case of just a bad breeder producing bad dogs, there is nothing you can do. This is why people must research and educate themselves before shopping for puppies.
> 
> If it is a case where the animals are abused or their living conditions are unacceptable under the law, then you contact animal control. It is their job to investigate and enforce those things.


I agree.

I'm not familiar with this particular situation but to me it seems the best way to get at bad BYBs is to simply not give them any money and cut off the demand. They are only breeding to such low standards because people are buying the puppies. I'd rather see proper research and consideration done beforehand than actually buying a puppy from one of these scumbags and then trying to put them out of business. That seems counter productive.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

This is not a BYB, a BYB is just a breeder who doesn't abide by kennel club "standards" and breeds what they want to breed, but generally cares for their animals. 

What you're describing sounds like animal cruelty. 

I'd contact a vet in the breeder's area and ask them if their regulatory body has any guidelines as to how animals can be bred/sold.

Perhaps send IRS a little note and some links to their advertisemens so they can investigate whether they're claiming any of the income from the puppies


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, is there a law that states puppies can't be taken from their mother until 8 weeks? Second, definitely get a letter from your vet stating the condition this puppy is in. If you call a trainer/behaviorist, get their opinion on what it will take to make this puppy feel secure and not feel he has to fight for his life.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> First, is there a law that states puppies can't be taken from their mother until 8 weeks? Second, definitely get a letter from your vet stating the condition this puppy is in. If you call a trainer/behaviorist, get their opinion on what it will take to make this puppy feel secure and not feel he has to fight for his life.


Unfortunately there is not a law here in Texas for such a thing.

The letter is definitely a good idea, especially if anything serious goes down as far as law suits. He seems pretty livid. 

As soon as the puppy has enough strength and starts acting like a normal puppy, and if we still have him, then we have a trainer that will come to the house and work with him in our home situation. 

The good news is that the more he eats, the less aggression I've seen.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

If it were me...I'd also be shooting an email to the momma dogs breeder...from what I read on his website....he will not be happy to hear one of his dogs is being used for byb.... (wondering if they are breaking any kind of contract with him?)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you should call animal control. But whatever you do, do it quick. A pup that young can lose condition quickly in just a few days, and your pup may be improving, and their argument will be that they sold you the puppy and you did not do whatever you should have done. 

Glad you took him to the vet right off, keep the paperwork, and make copies and hand them over to Animal control.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Just curious, when you went to visit, how was the place? dirty? clean?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Slander?! I would be taking him to court! I would document EVERYTHING with video, pics, vet bills, trainer evaluation, save all text messages and make him pay for everything you have to go through to nurse this pup back to health. I would file something in small claims court after all is said and done. You would have a much better case than he would have with slander!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Myamom said:


> If it were me...I'd also be shooting an email to the momma dogs breeder...from what I read on his website....he will not be happy to hear one of his dogs is being used for byb.... (wondering if they are breaking any kind of contract with him?)


Definitely this!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Tihannah said:


> Slander?! I would be taking him to court! I would document EVERYTHING with video, pics, vet bills, trainer evaluation, save all text messages and make him pay for everything you have to go through to nurse this pup back to health. I would file something in small claims court after all is said and done. You would have a much better case than he would have with slander!


I'm wondering how this would play out, though. Was there a contract signed that guaranteed the health, age, temperament (etc) of the puppy? Didn't the OP purchase the puppy? If so, then at that time did they not check the puppies, parents, facilities, etc and make sure everything was in order? I think the only way going to court is worth it is if they were given something other than what they were sold (fake papers, wrong dog, breeder refusing to honor contract, etc). Otherwise they should have been able to look at the condition of the dogs and the facility and not purchase the puppy if things were not acceptable. If there is no contract then there's really nothing that can be enforced by the court (and even when there is one is not a guarantee).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is where buyer beware comes into play....unless the puppy was shipped and in ill health, the buyer had the opportunity to NOT purchase the pup. 
Too many people will buy a BYB or miller pup to "save" it. They are just supporting that breeder's next litter.
In MI unless the dog doesn't have adequate food, water or shelter, there is little AC can do. They can be chained up, matted and filthy and fed Olroy.... as long as they have food water and shelter it's all good.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah, like I said, it was our fault for getting the puppy to begin with when we had a million red flags pop up. I just kept thinking okay, it's still a life... how bad could it really turn out. 

Anyway, when we would visit their house, the condition of the house was great... but that wasn't where the puppies were, and we never saw that location. They had a million chihuahuas running around, and they all seemed very well cared for. The shepherds were allowed to run wild around the acres around them, but they seemed to be in great shape and all of that. 

Animal control told me the same thing onyx... that they didn't even have the right to see the location of the puppies if the breeder didn't want to show him.

We were set up to talk to the breeder last night. Either I contacted him too late at night or he's pissed about animal control also showing up, but we didn't make contact.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> Anyway, when we would visit their house, the condition of the house was great... but that wasn't where the puppies were, and we never saw that location.


It would have been within your right to ask to see the puppies, the dam, and the area where they were being kept.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything, but these threads happen every few months here on this board, and unless you had a contract and the breeder went against it or explicitly lied to you (like falsified papers) then there's really no point in beating this dead horse. It's a live and learn experience. This is what happens when you buy a puppy from a breeder with such low standards. There's not anything you can do to force someone to change how they operate if they are within the law. If people pay money for the dogs why would there be any incentive for them to change? I'm not condoning it AT ALL but it is what it is. You could go to court but the first thing the judge would ask is why did you agree to PAY for the dog if it has health problems, behavior problems, there were so many red flags, and the conditions were not acceptable? 

If you decide to keep the dog, accept that responsibility and put your energy towards the dog and not wasting time with this breeder.


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It would have been within your right to ask to see the puppies, the dam, and the area where they were being kept.
> 
> I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything, but these threads happen every few months here on this board, and unless you had a contract and the breeder went against it or explicitly lied to you (like falsified papers) then there's really no point in beating this dead horse. It's a live and learn experience. This is what happens when you buy a puppy from a breeder with such low standards. There's not anything you can do to force someone to change how they operate if they are within the law. If people pay money for the dogs why would there be any incentive for them to change? I'm not condoning it AT ALL but it is what it is. You could go to court but the first thing the judge would ask is why did you agree to PAY for the dog if it has health problems, behavior problems, there were so many red flags, and the conditions were not acceptable?
> 
> If you decide to keep the dog, accept that responsibility and put your energy towards the dog and not wasting time with this breeder.


Right. I'm very timid and felt like asking would be invasive. I know it's within my right, so I'm just dumb for having not done it.

The court would be a big waste of time, I know. We would not be going to court, only if he TOOK us to court, which I thought was just hilarious that he brought up.

With the puppy, he seemed great when we picked him up. Didn't notice the bones... didn't know what weight he should have been... didn't know his size compared to the litter, etc. It took trying to play with him for a day to notice he was not responsive to anything. Anyway, not going to beat a dead horse. The puppy is doing great and the breeders were made aware of how serious we are about the puppy's condition and the possibility of the rest of their dogs. That's all we wanted, not a flame war or any attention to be taken away from the puppy.

If he doesn't contact us that's fine. We're not here to fight of victimize him, but it's one of those situations you just want to ask "how did you not notice?" We may never get our answers, but that's fine. We're not revengeful people by any means.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You also need to consider that if there is no contract that he supplied you with a healthy puppy, and you take him to court, there is always the possibility that the judge could reimburse you the money spent and make you give the puppy back to the breeder.

I'm glad you've decided to move on and just take care of your puppy. You would spend a lot of time, money and emotional stress to fight the breeder over the puppy. As far as them trying to sue you, there are vet records proving how sick he is so I wouldn't get to concerned about that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Moved this from the other thread to this one:

Today, 02:09 PM #*161* (*permalink*) GSDElsa 
Knighted Member

 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Central, NY
Posts: 2,305 









*Reply From Sportwaffen: Extremely Aggressive Puppy* 
I was asked by Nate at Sportwaffen to post this email reply he sent to the OP regarding this issue and if the bitch of this litter was indeed one of his dogs. Please see below (names removed).

*Hello,

My first contact from a person identifying themselves as XX was 08/2010. He asked about a black sable puppy from another litter I had. (The Stuka x Jenny litter was prior to this date.)

My "I" litter was a Stuka x Jenny litter, but I do not recall having in my records XX being an original purchaser. He may have purchased "her" from someone else. 

With that being said, the female in those pictures definitely is not from a breeding with Stuka x Jenny. It is genetically impossible. From the pictures I received she appears to be a black and tan female. Stuka and Jenny both are sable. They produce sable. Period. (No black recessive gene action going on to create solid black, and definitely no ability to create bi-colors or black/tans.) 

I'm sorry, but something is wrong here. I'm sorry that you have been treated this way. And I'm sorry that someone is breeding in this way. Things like this make me very angry. * 
__________________
Justine, mom to:
- Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins"
- Soon To Come Bratty Brother To Elsa


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you, I just checked my email after I saw this. 


Pretty weird... I asked him some more details on if my breeder purchased the "black sable" and blah blah.... 

I want to get this figured out before I confront the breeder on all of this.

Also, Nate may have confidentiality terms that he cannot share any further information with me which would be upsetting. :/


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

And just so everybody understands, here was my email to him:



> Nate,
> 
> We recently purchased a puppy from a local breeder named XX out of Kaufman, TX. His female was purchased from you, Ivana Von Den Sportwaffen, AKC# ---. I believe she was from the Stuka X Jenny litter but can't be positive. Ivana is not a sable (see picture links below). Our puppy shows several odd characteristics not reminiscent of the Sportwaffen line. He has white "socks" on all feet and a white tipped tail, and the litter is very undersized having come from a very large father and Ivana. Our puppy is still under five pounds at eight weeks. We thought it may be because he was severely sick and starved close to death when we got him, but having spoken to another purchaser of the litter, their puppy is only seven pounds and was the one of the biggest at the time of pick up.
> 
> ...


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## Sleepyhouse22 (Mar 22, 2011)

Replies:



> Nate,
> 
> Thank you for your reply, and I was made aware of your response through the GSD board, so thank you for that.
> 
> ...





> I did not record the name Ivana so I can't say.
> 
> 
> He did not purchase the other puppy.
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Can I ask what you paid for this puppy and if you got some type of contract? a copy of pedigree? just curious..


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