# Dog Neutralization or Dog interaction



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

So I have been wondering since I got Ike last week: how important is physical dog-dog interaction to the development of a puppy?

Ike will be 9 weeks old tomorrow. In the week that he has been with me he has been to Lowes, gas station, coffee shop patio, traffic corners (so he can hear the cars going by), the vet, our schutzhund field, and have met and been handled by tons of people. He has been exposed to all kinds of surface (shiny, uneven, slippery, etc.) and sounds (including gunshot @ training). The only thing he has not had a lot of exposure to are dogs other than my two at home (and even there it is limited to 45 minutes a day, supervised. Part of it is to prevent too much bonding, part of it is because Obie is too big and Dottie and Ike play too rough together and they are both incredibly possessive of objects). Obviously because he only one set of shots I am not going to take him to anyplace with a lot of dogs. 

Now I have to say I don't particularly want Ike to be a doggy dog or a social butterfly. Obie is one and for me personally one is enough. Ike doesn't need to love dogs and other dogs don't need to love him. Now obviously I don't want him to hate dogs either. I just want him to be NEUTRAL to them, like the way I want him to be neutral to sound, people, surfaces, car rides, etc. 

So my question is if I just bring him to places where they are dogs around and do not let him physically interact with them, for example, taking him to the schH field to watch the dogs work and to do some puppy obedience around other dogs, does that still count as dog-dog socialization?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I want my dog to be non reactive to other dogs. My two females are reactive(not aggressive for the most part, though), and it is a pain to manage.
With Karlo(who I am training in SchH) I did do a puppy playtime when he was about 12 weeks old, just a few times we went so he would not be all excited when other dogs beside my own were in his realm. It worked(that and genetics) He could care less about other dogs. Now as he matures, it may change, but for now he is fine. 
The play class I went to was supervised, we stayed w/ the pups and if one got too exhuberant it was put on time out for a few to chill. I went to one class first and the girl running it wanted us to leave the pups(um, no way!), then let in a 6 week old one. I wrote a letter to the shop owner and those classes ended about a week later.

If you don't let your pup interact w/ others, I think it will build drive to want to do so, and that can lead to reactivity. If it is done in a structured manner, I think one or two sessions would be enough. All depends on the dog though.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

When I start puppies out we go lots of places but we don't do many meet & greet or puppy play time. I want my pups/dogs to learn that there are other dogs in the world and they don't need to play with all of them or any of them. Any meetings that my pups have I want to be a positive experience. My pups get huge rewards for just seeing another puppy and keeping it's attention on me. That shows the pup that the reward is you and life with you is good.

Val


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Jane, 
Are you saying one or two playing sessions for his entire puppyhood should be enough? 

Val, 
That's what I want with Ike. I gave Obie way too much leeway with dogs and pups when he is young and now I'm paying the price in training. On the scale of fun from 1 to 10 (10 being OMG THIS IS FREAKING AWESOME!), dogs are 8-9 and I'm about a 3-4 on a good day. Dottie - who came to me as a 2 yr old - likes dogs (though not all dogs like her because she is a bossy herder) but she would much rather play/work with me. Even in the company of other dogs, she would rather tug or play fetch than socialize. Obviously I can't take credit for that because the first two years of her life is a mystery (someone dumped her in the SPCA parking lot one night). That's what I want with Ike. But what I am wondering is if the lack of actual physical hands-on puppy to puppy interaction is going to make him be weary or reactive later in life. Idealy when he is older I would like to him to look at other dogs and just shrug and go about his business.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Good question. It made me think about what I do. So this is what I came up with...

As a general policy it's a look, don't play approach. We go lots of places where we see dogs (particularly after vaccinations are complete)- SchH field, Pet stores, feed stores, outdoor markets, walks in neighborhood, etc. We do not go out of our way to meet other dogs...but with calm dogs, we do a "sniff and move on". Sort of like the nod you give to someone you pass in the hallway...lots of rewards for focus on the handler.

We do a lot of dog walking. In principle I am opposed to always just turning the dog out in the yard. Early leash walking helps with socialization. Sometimes I probably creep my neighbors out because when we are walking if someone else is walking their dog and it seems nice and normal...we'll turn around and follow. My puppy learns to cope with another dog in sight on leash and it becomes mundane and boring. We might also take another turn so that I end up passing them a couple times. We also mgiht team up with a friend and walk the dogs together...but without allowing play. 

I really don't ever have a point where I allow my dogs to all out off lead play with dogs that do not belong to me. I haven't found it necessary or detrimental at this point. Although I could see where it mgiht be an issue if I did off lead dog activities...like dog parks. 

ETA- I do adjust though based on personality. If a dog is showing reactivity issues early on I would probably bump up the number of dog encounters so I could work on it...a dog that seems to care less by nature I probably wouldn't do as much...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jason, 

Stark has been exposed to dogs since he was fully vaccinated. He has had a nightly doggy-playdate with a few dogs that live in my building and who we train with.

This does not make him a "doggy social butterfly". Yes, he LOVES to play with other dogs, but is not one of those dogs who NEEDS to be with them or near them when he sees them walking or nearby. When he is off-leash and able to play with them, he does and loves it, but other than that he is what I would consider neutral to them.

I think because he has so much socialization (and conitunes too) with environments, people, surfaces, and dogs this has made him more neutral to those things. He will definitely notice the dogs (ears perked and a look in their direction especially if those dogs are barking) but for the most part he will ignore them and continue doing what he is doing, even if he is off-leash at the time.

It was important to me to have him socialized with other dogs and to allow him to play with them so that he wouldn't be reactive, fearful, or aggressive in any way or in any situation.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just wanted to add -

We do the "sniff and move on" as well when out and about. If the other dog is calm and what I would consider a good candiate then I will allow a sniff to say "hello", but then we are on our way.

I want a dog that is friendly, happy and confident around other dogs but not one that will pull me across the street to play with them.

I don't know if this is based on all the training and socialization we have and continue to do or just Stark's personaility. 

Good thread Jason, it really got me thinking.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I like the above reply! It gives me a better idea of how to handle my own dogs. I never thought of it as a nod like that and that is a good way to look at it, so thank you!! I am still in the process of learning how to read dog body language and redirecting my own fear issues to make life pleasant for myself and both of my dogs and I think this will help


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinJane,
> Are you saying one or two playing sessions for his entire puppyhood should be enough?


 I only needed that amount of sessons as it was in the important imprinting time. He acted like a little bully with an older beagle we were around and I wanted that to stop, too. He was only 10 weeks(but bigger than her) and bit her in the back, so I knew I needed to get him around other pups for a short time. 
I don't want Karlo to play w/ other dogs(other than my own) and just wanted to be sure he was not a nut when other dogs are around. 
When we are at the SchH club, it isn't a big deal how he acts, as most dogs are reactive while crated, but when we are out and about, I want a social happy boy, and not a reactive nut like my other two are.
Our bond is really strong, he is into me way more than most distractions. His recall has been 100% when other dogs are in his veiw while we train off leash in my front yard. Not to say he would ever NOT listen, but he just doesn't care about other dogs one way or another. As I said before, with maturity that may change.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

At this point with Masi, even tho she is 18mths I am with Val's philosophy. 

When she was a puppy, I got her into the wrong type of puppy classes and it was not a positive experience for her at all,(long story) put her on the defensive big time, which then evolved into everyday "life"..I yanked her out of the class, and worked her on my own for awhile trying to deprogram. Got her into a different training facility with a totally different approach and it's worked. She doesn't think every dog is out to get her, and for the most part she is very uninterested in other dogs. She is totally non reactive to other dogs we come across, unless they make a move on her first.

I, myself, don't care if my dog likes other dogs, she has a group of doggie friends (including two at home). She does however, have to tolerate "life",,and thankfully I can say she does. 

My female aussie has never met a stranger, man nor beast) and yes ALot of times THAT is much more fun than me) and can be frustrating at times!!

I have always found with my gsd's, and masi is no exception, they are more into 'me' than the world around them, which is exactly what I want in a dog))


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinSo my question is if I just bring him to places where they are dogs around and do not let him physically interact with them, for example, taking him to the schH field to watch the dogs work and to do some puppy obedience around other dogs, does that still count as dog-dog socialization?


Yes. Dogs don't have to actually play with other dogs to be comfortable around them, but they do need to be socialized to their presence. Because I have an itty bitty yard and have to take my dogs to off leash parks for play, my goals are different than yours. I want my dogs to be able to freely interact with other dogs in a friendly fashion and be relaxed, happy, and comfortable in that kind of environment, so they've always gotten lots of opportunities to do so from an early age. For you, that's not necessary, nor is it desirable, so what JKlatsky describes would be perfect. 

When I'm doing a leash walk, (which is always for training purposes, off leash is for exercise), I'll allow brief greetings as we pass other people and dogs, (as long as the other dog is friendly and the other person agrees), but with rules. They have to sit first and look at me, and then I release them to "go say hi". After everyone has a chance to sniff each other we continue walking. I ended up walking with two other women and their dogs for about a mile and a half once when I was at the lake with Keefer. It was the end of a 4+ mile hike on a warm day and he was tired and kept falling back, so I slowed down and he and one of the other dogs seemed quite content to walk side by side while the humans chatted.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlHe acted like a little bully with an older beagle we were around and I wanted that to stop, too. He was only 10 weeks(but bigger than her) and bit her in the back, so I knew I needed to get him around other pups for a short time.


So the idea is to get him around other pups so he gets a taste of his own medicine? But is that safe - to let puppies work things out themselves?

I ask because I think Ike might have a pretty dominant personality. In the last few days he has been humping anything and everything he sees. Now he has not tried to hump me or Obie (although with Obie it might just be because he is too short LOL) but everything else is fair game to him. He tries to hump Dottie yesterday. I thought for sure Dottie was going to freak out so I started to break them up. But to surprise Dottie didn't really react much. She just kind of spun around to face him and they went back to wrestling. But I am thinking if he tries that crap with another dog (maybe an older puppy or a puppy with an equally dominant personality) I am going to have a real fight on my hand. So he is obviously lacking in doggy social manner. It's not a big deal because he is only 8 weeks old and obviously he doesn't know any better. But if I don't let him play with other dogs, he will never know what a jerk he is. That can't be good, right?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> So the idea is to get him around other pups so he gets a taste of his own medicine? But is that safe - to let puppies work things out themselves?
> 
> But if I don't let him play with other dogs, he will never know what a jerk he is. That can't be good, right?


To me, you have 3 ways that off-leash puppy play can go. 
1. Your puppy (Not your puppy specifically) is a jerk, is dominant and makes the other puppy uncomfortable. This does not stop your puppy's bad behavior but reinforces it and also hurts the other puppy's confidence.
2. Your puppy gets told and is made to feel uncomfortable. This is not good for what your want to do. You want to build confidence.
3. Everything is in harmony. Dominance levels are easily accepted without roughousing and play is good for both dogs. 

Now this is just based on my experience with my own drivey bitey dominant puppers...but I only found Situation 3 with older, tolerant dogs. They didn't feel any need to assert their dominance over a little puppy, and the puppy usually respected the signals that the older dog would give. 

Most of the time I had Situation 1. The more submissive puppy will usually not 'explain' to your puppy that he is being a jerk. And personally, it's stressful for me to apologize to the owner of the other puppy and correct my puppy (and not necessarily appropriate for what I want to do)...Which is why I moved to only play within my pack to avoid the whole mess all together. As leader I can get my big dogs to lay off the puppy, and if the puppy gets too rough with the big dogs I can step in there as well...because I control the situation. It's hard to control the situation sometimes when the dogs you're playing with are not yours or do not belong to people who are on the same page. 

In the end, I do not allow my dogs to be jerks to other dogs. Sometimes if my socialization routine didn't pay off, or around 2-3yrs when they get stupid with hormones we have a conversation about how that is bad manners.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think that's a good point. If Ike is being a jerk, I would much rather stop him myself (or just remove him from play) then have another puppy or a dog tell him by force.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I took Karlo so his manners would stay consistant. He had a great start w/ the breeder and I wanted to keep him going in the right direction. If I had just let him be with his own pack, I think things may have ended up different with him. 
None of the other pups dominated Karlo, he didn't act bullyish either, it was a well supervised group. We didn't have any snarkiness. 
One dog was excused before I got there because it was being a bully. and the shop owner put that dog in an older playgroup. 
There was another GSD pup that just observed, didn't want to interact in the beginning. 
We did a basic obedience class a couple weeks later(different venue) and Karlo was really well behaved, where some of the other dogs were more interested in the dogs in the class than their own handlers.
For us, it worked. I just try to do what is best for my goals and my puppy's temperament.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I wonder what Ike would do in a puppy group like that. I see him playing with Dottie and sometimes Dottie would flip him on his back (he is the same weight as Dots but obviously Dottie's 15lbs is different than Ike's) and he seems to have no problem roughhousing from that position. But obviously he likes to bite and because of he is a GSD and because of his breeding, I can already tell he is a bit "dense" when it comes to pain so his definition of pain might not be the same as ... say ... a Bichon. And then there is the stupid humping thing ... LOL


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know what the best answer is. I have some older dogs very tolerant of the pup so they were good for him to be around. When my pup was young, I did let him socialize a bit with dogsat training club. It is hard to compete with another dog as far as being interesting to a pup, so I was soon up against that scenario. My pup is also rather dominant and forward. When I got him around other dogs and he couldn't get to them to play... he would get rather gnarly and escalate his frustration at being held back toward the other dog. Now sorta wishing we didn't have this. We are working on remaining neutral around other dogs and that is going well as he is not aggressive or worried around dogs. I think I wish I had just gone for neutrality from the beginning. 

You get a strong, dominant pup really interested in playing with others and then don't allow it and watch the fit get pitched. Of course, we will get past it with age and training..... but, ughh.

This pup didn't do puppy play group as I had already seen just how badly that can go in a previous lifetime. Not gonna do it... nope.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I gave Obie way too much leeway with dogs and pups when he is young and now I'm paying the price in training. On the scale of fun from 1 to 10 (10 being OMG THIS IS FREAKING AWESOME!), dogs are 8-9 and I'm about a 3-4 on a good day.


If other dogs/puppies are WAY more fun and WAY more exciting than I am.............then that's my fault. I want my dogs to love and be comfortable around other dogs. No fear. No issues. No stress. And the only way that happens is to be around alot of other dogs. My dog doesn't have to play with all other dogs, but definitely be around/near/among them.

With that, I can still TEACH my dogs in a wonderful way that though other dogs are great. I AM THE QUEEN OF ALL THINGS!!!! I have the treats. I have the toys. I'm fun too!!!!!!! Really!

Watch this video of my 5 month old GSD in agility class packed with other dogs doing fun things and all off leash. Do I lose her a few times? Yes. Does she come back? Yes! And every week that goes by she's got better attention and focus on ME (remember, the Queen of All Things







) 5 months old (click here) and  one month later (click here) 

And because I have her socialized and dog friendly FOR SURE, I know I can take my dogs (the 5 yr old also socialized) on long offleash hikes with friends and THEIR dogs click here  as well as on vacations to visit friends with THEIR dogs as well as to dog shows and trials  click here. 

I want to KNOW my dogs will be comfortable in any situation I put them in for my lifestyle that full of friends and many of them have dogs! I want to know if there are dogs with ISSUES in the room, it's not going to be my dogs. I want to know if my dog isn't paying attention to me it is NOT because they are freaked out because of the other dogs in the area that may be causing anxiety and fearful reactions. 

A confident and happy dog comes from a comfortable and well adjusted pup that's can handle anything that they meet up with. And it's my job to prepare them for that the best way I can. So we meet up with tons of dogs/cats/chickens/horses/people WHATEVER! 

While I learn the training skills needed to keep my dogs attention and focus even with that going on. Heck, it's why I go to dog class and always will!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am afraid my pup is too confident. Pretty confident he should get to do what he wants, fairly confident he should play with anyone he wants to and confident he can kick their hiney if they object, really confident he can jump and roll them is 2 seconds flat also. 

I think we will just continue to work on being neutral while working and playing in very close proximity to other doggie classmates. Another dog nearby is no big deal but I also make sure the pup is focused on work and play with me.

Jason, I looked at your lovely little fellers pedigree...prolly just a matter of time before you too are the humpee!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Samba
> 
> Jason, I looked at your lovely little fellers pedigree...<span style="color: #FF9900">prolly</span> just a matter of time before you too are the humpee!











Didn't you get the memo, you'll be slapped by Jenn for using that word!! You still have time to edit!!!!








http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1258225&page=0&fpart=1


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

yeah, I couldn't resist!!!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Haha... Too funny!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba,

The day when Ike decides "You know, old man doesn't look so tough. I bet I can kick the his [censored] if I want to" is coming I'm sure. I can already tell he has a very short fuse. If you handle him correctly, he is a teddy bear and will just lick and lick you and cuddle. He was so sweet at the vet last week they asked whether I'm going to train him to be a therapy dog. But if he thinks for a moment that you are goofing around and messing with him, he has no problem getting all up in your grill about it









Angry little man.

Oh, and I spoke too soon about not humping Obie. I was goofing around with Obie this morning before breakfast. We do this thing where I wold lay on the floor and let Obie climb all over me and lick my face (while I squeal like a little girl and try not to get licked ... yes, that's how the boys in my house start their day). Well, Ike saw his opportunity and jumped on top of Obie, applied the death bite and started humping the back of Obie's head. Obie was too preoccupied with licking my face that he totally ignored it. I finally had to get up and pulled Ike away and put him in his crate for a bit before anyone walks in and see what the three of us were doing LOL


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee Watch this video of my 5 month old GSD in agility class packed with other dogs doing fun things and all off leash. Do I lose her a few times? Yes. Does she come back? Yes! And every week that goes by she's got better attention and focus on ME (remember, the Queen of All Things
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent post and videos! That's what I am working with Dottie right now in preagility. Getting her to stay focused and connected with me around other dogs. It's also remarkable how they can focus easier and tune out distractions as they acquire more skills and experience in agility training. The more they know what to do and how to do them, the less they care about the other dogs. Her first class Dottie was a wild woman, barking and lunging at every dog that she saw. Now as soon as she gets on the field, her focus is on me, ready to work, ready to play.

One difference I have noticed between agility and schH training is that the dogs work a lot closer in agility than schH. 

In Dottie's preagility class we are often no more than 3-4 feet from other dogs. In schH, other than working with dogs prepping for their BH, dogs are often worked at 20-30 yards apart and of course come protection time, all the dogs other than the one working are off the field and crated. So a SchH dog doesn't even up seeing a lot of dogs in training. I wonder that accounts for the difference in attitude I've observed between agility people and schH people. I've heard schH people say things like "Careful, my dog is a little dog aggressive" or "He is not the type you can take to other people's house and visit" but they say that in a neutral, matter of fact way.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh so funny on that little guy!!! Just because he owns some dominance doesn't make him not a love dog or not a dog who will have great devotion. My pup is very attached and responsive...but he has some dominance to his character and I am glad for it. 

When I picked my pup up, he was out playing with a dog who had a ball on a string. That big ol boy had no issue with the little nuisance pup. The adult dog a national competitor and quite strong. They can be strong and okay with other dogs. I doubt the big guy would let another male flash him a sign and have it go unanswered though.

I do take the killa' pup to lots of classes where we are working a few feet from one another, heeling with noses practically in the other dog's end, etc. It does help neutralize and makes for some nice focus. 

My Catahoula rescue is a lot of dog. He is perfectly fine around other dogs, does group stays, sits and works near others, etc. But if another male should approach him stiffly and try to smell his bits, he will answer that! I guess I might advise someone he is a bit dog aggressive that way. If you have strong dogs about, they will sometimes try to assert themselves especially when not under obedience. I ain't into sorting out pack structure with all my friends and acquaintances dogs.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Here is a video of Ike playing with Dottie. You can see he likes to bite her back (no attempt at humping this morning). Dottie is a pretty tough cookie though and eventually flipped Ike on his back. It didn't look like he minded. To me it looks like your regular doggy roughhousing. I don't see any snarkiness or schmucky behavoir from Ike on this one - though I wonder how a less "feisty" dog or pup might take his playing style. I'm curious as to what others think. (Btw, Ike only gets to do this 2-3 times a day, 5 minutes at a time. Other time they are separated. Can you imagine letting those two hang out together all day long?







)

http://www.youtube.com/user/oberdot#p/u/0/4oorG1wOIsg


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Reminds me of Stark and Senna playing. Senna is my sister's 20lbs pug mix, they are crazy together.

People who see them play think Stark hurt her, but I worry about Stark being hurt!

Hahaha.. 

Cute pups and beautiful home!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Haha I worry about Dottie hurting Ike's ears. "Dottie, bite anywhere but the ears!!!"


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Hahaha..


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh they are well matched in play! How fun. Hogan couldn't find many pups or dogs who were up to his style. I think it is fine that they play some. He is a baby puppy still. 


Puppy humping goes away after a bit, too.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba - they are well matched - a little too much. If they let them hang out all day, I can kiss Dottie's agility and Ike's puppy training goodbye.

Elisabeth - my house smells like puppy pee now! I wonder who's fault is that?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

So yesterday Ike met my neighbor's huge 90lbs Boxer named Ivo. Ivo was romping around in his unfenced yard (it's a weird setup. My neighbor Steven has this one acre of land in the middle of a packed residential area and he leaves it unfenced and unattended and lets his neighbors and friends use it for dogs). 

Now I've known Ivo for years. He is just a big silly goof and he and Obie have been best friends since Obie was a wee pup. He is terrified of Dottie, However. Everytime Dottie comes out, Ivo goes into serious avoidance mode: "Mmmm ... delicious grass ... chomp chomp ... grasssss" LOL

Anyway, So Ivo came running towards us and the next thing I know Ike had his tail between his legs and was running back to the house. I went back and got Ike and sat down with him while Ivo came and checked him out. Luckily Ike recovered very quickly and his tail started wagging and then Ivo made a playbow and ran away and Ike got up and wanted to chase him. They kind of hung out for 5 minutes after that, with Ike on leash, of course.

But I've to say, the initial tail between the legs surprised me since that was the first time I have seen that from him. Sometimes I forget how young Ike is and how scary a full grown big dogs must appear to him.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

It was probably the fact that this larger dog came running at you that scared him.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Yup, I'm sure it was my fault. Should have looked to see if the coast was clear before bring him out. Sorry boy Dad stupid.


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