# Not a sexy pedigree..



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Like the title says not sexy but I am interested in this breeding as I know the sire Kassel, and also the sire of the Dam. Both dogs are extreme and...notorious around here..
Also know a full sister to the dam that is a top quality female. Handler hard, good nerve and a grip to die for. Very mal like.

So what do y'all think?

Line-breeding for the progency of Kassel v. Haus Barkley and Olympics Athena

Also curious what the pedigree gurus can divine about Kassel and Inky just by looking at the peds .


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Just the parents and grandparents aren't sexy after that it gets quite attractive. And if you have seen the parents work, what more could you ask for?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I've heard some interesting things about Optika's "D" litter....from a couple around here and some people "in real life." So, curious what the "guru's" have to say about how the other dogs in the pedigree balance (or don't) that out.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I wonder where the sire gets " extreme" from.....lol.....this kinda of breeding, IMO, can produce some great dogs, but not necessarily an overall good litter.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have heard too much about ................let's call it inconsistent and "unpredictabilty" coming down from Dark and Dusty.....

Like Gucci...but would be wary of what comes out through Dusty in the next generation....

Stuff can pop out from way back....and often does

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I wonder where the sire gets " extreme" from.....lol.....this kinda of breeding, IMO, can produce some great dogs, but not necessarily an overall good litter.


I was hoping you would remark . What makes the sire extreme? I see he has some line breeding on Ugo who Im not familiar with. His previous handler in belgium didnt do much with him due to health issues. He just got here and has already made an..impression... 

Athena's dam Cody is 5-5 on Troll. Inky was returned by the police as he was to much for his handler..who is not weak by any stretch..lol..and was then used for drug detection. He throws some high drive pups from what I have seen.

What would be your concern? Health, nerve or both? Im going to guess its not drive..or handler hardness.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> I have heard too much about ................let's call it inconsistent and "unpredictabilty" coming down from Dark and Dusty.....
> 
> Like Gucci...but would be wary of what comes out through Dusty in the next generation....
> 
> ...


Like a handler better not push their luck type stuff?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let's try this again. Lost my last post.  

With the sire, I would expect strong hard dogs. I would watch for handler aggression coming down from both Gucci and Belschik. I am very familiar with Belschik and have trained with a number of Gucci kids at this point. Belschik produced a number of PSD as I would expect Gucci also did. Not the easiest dogs for sport unless crossed with the right females. High aggression, fight and some crazy prey dogs (depending on the bitch's lines), some idiot run over the cliff type dogs. 

Friend has a Gucci daughter out of a Ziggo Haus Sevens daughter. Lakyra van het Basjes Huis

She has CRAZY amounts of prey drive and is tough to get into aggression, but then she brings in Ziggo and is linebred on Ugo (total prey dog). She can be very snarky and will come up the leash over corrections. She also has the idiot drive for toys and actually broke her handler's ankle going after a ball. Good grips, quick, athletic, very Mal like in many ways. Very good tracking and hunt drive. 

I seem to be having issues getting the pedigreedatabase to load so only looked quickly at the mother. I would watch hips coming down from Arec Bunsenkocker.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

lhczth said:


> She has CRAZY amounts of prey drive and is tough to get into aggression. She can be very snarky and will come up the leash over corrections. She also has the idiot drive for toys and actually broke her handler's ankle going after a ball. Good grips, quick, athletic, very Mal like in many ways. Very good tracking and hunt drive.


My dog Kastle, came from Kassel's breeder and his dam is 1/2 sister to Dusty. Pretty much everything Lisa said about Kyra, is true for Kastle too...CRAZY HIGH drive. 

Not handler soft, he can be sensitive when out of drive, but takes a correction and keeps on coming when a ball is in the picture. He's bashed out 4 teeth or broken them trying to go for a toy. He's a wonderful house pet but when he's training/working, he's a handful. Not for a first time handler I would say. He was also much slower to mature than Kyra - I am just seeing the coming up the line and aggression in protection starting to come now (he's 3 years old).

He is a phenomenal natural tracker, his hunt drive is the highest I've seen in a GSD/Mal/Dutchie (I used to train tracking dogs for a living for the government), and he will go. all. day. 

He's dog appropriate/neutral, social, easy to take places, can take to parades, the store, etc. Very solid nerve socially and environmentally.

Protection is ok. His grips could be fuller (he grips fully on one side, not the other), and he could be a bit more pushy/dominant but that seems to be coming along slowly. His bark is great, sounds good all the time. He's fast to the blind search and the escape.

He is also small (60ish pounds intact male), a long coat, and has elbow dysplasia. The mouth surgeries were just icing  Nah, I love my idiot long coat but he's not easy.

ETA: here's my dog's ped: SG1 Kastle van het Basjes Huis


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"was returned by the police as he was to much for his handler..who is not weak by any stretch..lol..and was then used for drug detection"

no other handlers? or other depts. ?

sounds like the dog may have been a liability. 

so -- then , knowing that , all the more important the choice of breeding partners.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let's just say I am one that believes too much drive is not good in this breed....even with sound nerves. Jmo.....what do you know about what Fado v Lutter has produced....very important when mixed with some of other dogs that Lisa and Lee are discussing. 
There's a lot to read in this pedigree, a lot of strong individual dogs, the question is collectively what will they produce....you may be seeing some things I am missing though.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

We have all seen litters where 1. you loved the sire 2. you loved the dam 3. they _seemed_ to be a complementary/compensatory cross.....and 4. WHERE THE HECK did THAT come from????
















I bred a Pike daughter to a Yoshey son - very complementary/compensatory pair. Wonderful wonderful female. Male was to add some hardness and civil aggression. Got dwarfs!!!! Known producers were 10 to 12 generations back according to the team at the Univ of Utrecht doing the genetic research and DNA mapping for dwarfism.

I see lots of opportunities for things mentioned here to come up from BOTH sides.....so when they are combined...not for the faint hearted...!

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Oops, just realized I spelled Zygo Haus Sevens name wrong. LOL 

Falon, I had totally forgotten that Kastle was out of Hetty.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback folks, very informative.

Cliff not familiar at all with Fado or really any of the dogs in the ped. My interest in this litter is based soley on first hand experience with the sire and dam side.

What I like about the sire, power, fight, dominance and intense drive.

I train with a full sister to the dam from a repeat breeding super hard, super drive and grip is the best I have seen on a pup. Prey a bit high for my tastes but she is still young.


So to summarize the info Im getting and what I know about some of the dogs first hand..

What I would hope for out of this breeding is intense drive, hardness, fight/dominance, nerve.

What I would worry about is handler aggression, hips, trainability (maybe to much hardness if that is possible), and the nerve base necessary to support the aggression I want.

Hopefully there are a few males to test in the litter.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I also should mention that I personally think this type of dog does not take well to punishment based training systems. 
It seems like people want to get godzilla, then they try to beat the godzilla out of him with predictable results. Makes me wonder how many of these dogs that are notorious would have come up the leash as much as they had if there wasnt a smarter training sytem implemented.

From what I have learned and observed I suspect a lot of the handler aggression specific to this thread comes from the handler applying punishment to early or frequently in the training process.

The dog does not understand the rules of the game and how to turn the pressure off. The route to drive satisfaction is not clear. He gets frustrated and does not have it in him to submit to punishment especially when he doesnt see whats in it for him. Then people get hurt.

I get the distinct impression that "because I said so" wont work for the type of dogs that are close up in the pedigree and the type I would want out of this breeding.

They have to be shown whats in it for them.

That being said Im sure some dogs will send you to hospital either way .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Belschik was very rank. Even at 12 when I met him you could see he believed he owned and ruled the world. The woman who was keeping him for the owners took nothing away from him. He had a reputation. Very very strong dog. I did not get any of that in my litter despite breeding him to an extremely hard and strong female. Maybe a bit too much hardness in the male, but absolutely no handler aggression. I think the male could have possibly become a problem IF he had gotten into brutal hands. So..... I agree with your assumption with the dogs I know coming down from him. His granddaughter can be a handful and never would have done well with many handlers. 

I have "heard" that Gucci is also very rank. Not an easy dog to handle. The females I have trained with out of different mothers were all just snarky at young ages. None are in the hands of people that are hard on them at all. Very different from my experiences with the Belschik kids and grandkids. One of these people also has a bitch out of my Belschik daughter who would never think about biting mom. Same training, same owner, very different reactions.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry Blitzkrieg1, I thought from the OP that you wanted info on a perspective litter by Kassel and Ketty based on review of their "peds". With the possibility of individual parents not always being representative of a litters genetics, I find it difficult if not impossible to project based exclusively on parents only information. But, I am sure there are folks here who can help.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

A while ago I posted a dog who is closely realated to the male in question, after gucci and a female after dusty, a very nice strong dog from a good litter and I´ve heard others who are pleased with their dogs after gucci ,
Brigadens Evil ? working-dog

The same female also had a litter linebreed on zora who is behind dusty, seen some of those dogs and two of them also have breedings comming up, this male from that litter did a very good test for the police, very strong in different environments according to the breeder who used him,
Brigadens Darko


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Interesting pedigrees, Bjorn.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Sorry Blitzkrieg1, I thought from the OP that you wanted info on a perspective litter by Kassel and Ketty based on review of their "peds". With the possibility of individual parents not always being representative of a litters genetics, I find it difficult if not impossible to project based exclusively on parents only information. But, I am sure there are folks here who can help.


Cliff I think you misunderstand me. I was saying that I have no clue about any of the dogs in the pedigree and that my interest was based solely on first hand experience with some of the immidiate dogs in the ped. The type of information you and others on here has been providing is exactly what I was after. I also find it heartening that based on the pedigrees some people came up with accurate assumptions about the dogs that I personally know.

Once again thankyou everyone for the info its helping me get a clearer picture of what this breeding could be.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "I get the distinct impression that "because I said so" wont work for the type of dogs that are close up in the pedigree and the type I would want out of this breeding.

They have to be shown whats in it for them.

That being said Im sure some dogs will send you to hospital either way







. "

So WHY? 

You do not have to have an unmanageable "angry" dog to have deep power .
You lose the functionality . 
__________________


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Never said you did. I just said no matter how enlightened your training approach may be there will likely come a time when a correction needs to be applied and certain dogs will put you in the hospital no matter how fair your training was. 
I have no interest in hospitals. I do have interest in exceptional dogs and to get one I accept that you may have to tread on thinner ice to find the "one".


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