# scruff shakes



## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

how do you teach a puppy to not bite you? My shepherd is 4 months and he's always doing it. There was a trainer who told me on the phone that I need to elevate myself from being his littermate to his leader because puppies dont nip leaders. He said that my dog does not respect me. And he said that spraying water would not work on most shepards (I've tried it, he just tries to drink from the container) and yelping would not work either. He told me to firmly grip the scruff and shake it, and I did it but he bite me even more so he said I was not being firm enough. So he came to my house to show me how, he did it only once and my puppy never bite him again it was amazing. I thought I got the hang of it but now he's gone and I'm left with this little monster again. I tried to do what he showed me but it would not work. I don't want him to come back again because h'e's so expensive so if anyone knows how to do it.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree with you...this is a tough thing to get them to understand. The trainer that we go to on weekends did it once, maybe twice to Mandi and that was the end of it. I do it and the dog all but up and laughs at me!! We make yelping sounds, turn our backs to her and ignore her, all sorts of things and she keeps on a nibbling on us. I am hoping that in time she will get it.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

WOW, not sure that is a good way to get our dog to stop biting. Usually the advice is to try to redirect the pup with a toy, or a training exercise. 

Hopefully there will be more advice the the senior members.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

he said that it wasn't about nipping. it was about the fact that he treats me like a littermate than a leader. Believe me I've tried everything else and told the trainer about it and he said that those things would not work on like 70% of shepherd pups because they have tough personalities. He said that he would advise someone with like a labrador pup to use those soft techniques (yelping, water bottle, blah) but I have to be firm with a shepherd pup.

he will absolutely not be redirected all he wants to do is chew ME! He said that if I give him a toy everytime he bites me, he will learn to bite. Then everytime he wants to have another toy, he will bite me. We do give him lots of toys when he's out of the crate we rotate the toys but he prefers to chew on me. He's a real tough one.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Time to get busy. Yup! Puppy needs mental excersise. Sits, downs, stays-- on rough bumpy pavement surfaces like bricks at the library walkway.. green grass at the park.. elevated position like on a picnic table at the park.. etc. Tire that puppy's brain out! He needs more involvement from you. GSDs are not a breed for the casual owner, so, we get really involved and busy in training and excersising their minds. Start teaching focus, too. Lots of books and websites on clicker training are out there.

Your puppy needs physical excersise too. Being let out in the yard is not going to work, he needs walks with you. Often. 

The main thing he needs is mental work, mental stimulation. Plan on reading books, doing research online on training, watching training DVDs from the library, and joining a training class with your pup-- and doing LOTS of training homework at home.

Got good chew toys? Kong? Rubber chew toys-- all given only under your supervision, as dogs can and do chew off pieces and ingest them.

Got a wet washcloth wrung out and stuck in the freezer, to give for teething pain while you supervise?

Mostly, plan on becoming much more involved and busy incorperating training into yoir daily life with this smart, driven breed who needs a mental outlet.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

is 24 km walking per day enough or does he need more? the vet said that he should not walk too much.

He gives up easily on the kong and he plays his toys for 5 min and gets bored.

but do I have to like give him commands all day? When will it stop? I mean he knows lots of commands but do I have to give him commands all day just so he won't bite me?


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

Sounds like puppy needs a little crate time to calm down. You can play too much to the point where he will get over-stimulated and then you have a real monster.

When YOU are done playing and he doesn't get the point, gently lead him to his crate and tell him calmly that it's rest time. He may howl and carry on, but remember, you are the boss and he must learn to do what you say.

Patti's idea of mental stimulation is a good one. Puppers (and dogs) also tire out from mental exercises, not just physical ones.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

24Km? (Doing conversion for my American brain...) That's like, 15 miles, right?

Wooo! that's much too far for a 4 month old puppy to walk! A four-month old pup shouldn't go for more than about a 25 minute walk at any given time, with a lot of resting (napping) time in between. Anything else, and you're overdoing it. So Jan is on to something. You may be overdoing it. 

Now, for redirecting. There's offering a puppy a toy. Then, there's redirecting. Redirecting is much more persuasive. It means saying to the puppy in a language he will understand that the toy is the ONLY option he has and then generously rewarding him for playing with the toy. 

When my high drive European lines GSD was a pup, he was a little shark. But my Dh and I always carried stuffed toys in our pocket and had them stashed EVERYWHERE in the house. Pretty much, every time Campeche opened his mouth in that menacing way that only a GSD puppy can, we popped a toy into his mouth and said "Toy! Good Toy!" with a happy sound in our voices. Then we played with him and the toy for a while. Often, we would even give him a tiny snack to go along with playing with the toy. 

In other words, we didn't hand him a toy and expect him to play with it on his own. We put a soft fluffy toy in his mouth. I personally like fluffy toys that are bigger than the puppy mouths because the pups can't do anything for a second because their mouths are stuffed full. Soft toys can't hurt new teeth, and they're a little harder to spit out. That gives me a second to get on my knees and rub him all over and thus reward him "Good Toy!" I'm not saying "NO!" Rather, I'm saying "Yes!" to a new behavior. 

It's always easier to teach a dog a new behavior that we want than to extinguish a behavior we don't want. Puppies like learning new things, and they like it when we're happy. They love playing with us. 

If your pup spits out the first toy, quickly put another in his mouth. Then give him another. Then another. Quickly, he'll learn that his only option is to play with a toy. 

This showed our pup that there is a better option than attacking or our hands and feet, or whatever other thing he was planning to attack (in my house, it was our senior dogs). Toys mean that we would play with him and that was fun, and he made us happy doing that. What a win-win situation! 

It didn't take Campeche very long to figure out that HE could bring US toys. (which we responded to by saying "Toy! Good toy!" and stopping everything to play with him...at least, for a while...) He went from being menacing and causing a ruckus to instigating productive play. How great is that? That's the great thing about GSDs. It doesn't take them long to figure things out. They want to be with us. And they like when we're happy and playing with them. We just have to show them how.

But pretty much every GSD pup nips and bites. They don't all have dominance issues. They're herding dogs. It's what they do. We just have to train them to do something more constructive with that instinct. 

And, do what Patti and Jan suggest. Physical exercise. Mental stimulation (playing games with you is stimulating. Add in hide and seek, and some "find it" games as well.). And lots of undisturbed naps in between for a growing body, and a growing brain as well.

Good luck!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm with Brightelf, I'd much rather spend my time and effort teaching my pup things I DO want so can reward and praise. Then be sitting at home, get 'attacked' and have to do the yelling and 'bad dog' stuff.

First of all, I do NOT agree with your trainer that the 'softer' way won't work with our gsd pups. Just that it may take more time, but they do work.

Key things are to play with your dog is a GOOD way. Cause right now your puppy only knows the #1 way ALL OUR PUPPIES KNOW until we teach them differently. It worked to play with their mom. And their littermates. So, if they want to play with us and are bored and full of energy, those teeth are coming for us.

The key part is we have to TEACH them to play with a toy. Long squeaky toys, tug toys, soft toys, rope toys. Anything we can interact with but NOT have our flesh too close to those sharp teeth. And it has to be fun, meaning WE HAVE TO BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So when the pup does bring a toy to us we have to drop everything else and PLAY!!!! 

Tons more exercise. DOG CLASS. I know if I am having problems it's cause I don't know, so I go to classes and get real help from those who do.

BTW, dog class, especially with puppies, usually allows some play time and guess what??? It tires those pups out with zero effort on our part (and watch the biting, the NORMAL biting, that goes on!).

There are hundreds (thousands?) of us on this site that WERE helped by information on the Teaching BIte Inhibition site so I do not agree with your trainer. Though it may take a bit longer, you end up with a happy pup that is working with your to understand the situation. Not one that is a bit fearful and confused because everytime they go to their favorite person in the world to invite them to PLAY they immediately get yelled at and slammed to the ground or scruffed.....


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

I have tried everything ok? I just want to know how to scruff shake my puppy. If a puppy nips his mother, she would bite him back HARDER, and say that it's unaccepcable. I am trying to use dog pshycology because he dog. It would do me no good if I redirect him, I've tried it. He needs to learn that it is not okay to bite me. I need him to see that if he does bad he will get a bad response. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but my previous trainer said the same thing, it's not about just nipping, it's about respect, I believe them. A puppy would never nip his alpha because is alpha will bite him back. When he does something bad, he needs correction. 

I'm not talking about training a walrus here. Walrus are only good for doing tricks. But if you LIVE with a walrus, you would need for him to respect you. Right? When you teach a command, you use positive reinforcement, but when you are trying to teach them to respect you, how else could you do it? When a walrus jumps on you, and you throw him a toy or throw him a fish, what are you teaching the walrus?

I just want to know how to scruff shake my puppy because the trainer too expensive it was $425 for that session if you're wondering.

Ok, I think I'm over doing the exercises by a lot.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Here's something to think about - 

It seems to me that your pup didn't nip at your trainer after he shook him hard because the trainer SCARED him. 

I personally don't want my dog to be afraid of me, or anyone else for that matter. 

(Scaring doesn't have anything to do with respect either. I'm afraid of a knife-wielding criminal in a dark alley. That doesn't mean I respect him.)

Your pup isn't so unique. I know it feels that way. It feels like you're all alone. It's frustrating. Your hands, feet and legs are covered in bite marks. You just want to scream. I know because I've been there. But a spunky happy puppy that nips because he hasn't been trained to do anything else can be turned into an fearful puppy. Fearful puppies often become problem adults that lack confidence and see everything as a threat, and yes, these dogs often will BITE. Not nip, but bite with large jaws and imposing teeth.

A *quick* *easy* solution to a normal developmental "issue" now (I'm not calling it a 'problem' because nipping and biting at this age is normal. It's an issue to be managed.) _ just might _ cause you a lot of serious problems down the road. 

Then you'll really need an expensive trainer. 

JMO.


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

We have had our 11 week old for three weeks now. It seems as though we were sold a highly evolved reptile: crocodile to be exact. All family members were mouthed and enjoyed. We have learned that timing has a huge impact on when he gets mouthy. He bites when he gets tired and over stimulated. This is also when sits and downs, and even redirects, have little influence. That is our clue it is time for a little rest in the crate. Like clockwork, he will fall into a deep sleep. We can now almost predict at what time of day the crocodile will show itself. So, for us, clearly understanding his play and downtime ryhthms have helped limit a lot of the biting. Though he (we!) still has a long way to go. LOL


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Just wondering if the pup is to young to start NILF. That method was really helpful when we started it with Rocky, just don't remember how old he was.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

He definately did not scare my puppy. Because Leivi warmed right up to him even after the scruff shake exept that he knows that if he doesn't respect the trainer's personal space, he will get a nip on his scruff. If he was scared I would know. But he was wagging his tail. I don't think a trainer who charges that much money will mess with a puppy like you said.

When a puppy nips you, you need to tell them that it's not okay. But that doesn't mean that I set him up for faliure. You get a negative consequence. My previous trainer told me to wack him with a newspaper and I didn't believe him because he was way cheap and I thought that he didn't know what he was talking about. But this new trainer says the same thing and he has been training police dogs for 3 years and he's had a lot of experiences.

I don't just randomly look in the phone book you know. I got the best trainer here, with credentials. I regret not observing more closely but I can't afford for either of the trainers to come back. 

When you say scared, no they don't get scared like humans do, because they are not humans, just because you give them a pinch on the neck. His momma did it to him if he went to close to her if she was eating. because she was the alpha. This is how they reinforce followers. If he had grow up under the same roof with his momma, then he risk being handicapped. 

But it depends on what type of relationship you want with your dog. If you want to have a friend relationship, your dog will not be the happiest. I'm no dog but , if a dog makes a mistake, you should correct him the way that his momma would because you're trying to be a leader, not a friend or equal.

I'm not saying that I know everything and I'm not trying to start anything but if you've never had a trainer that charges you so much money then you how would you know what you're saying is right about shepherds?
The bottom line is that they once they nip you, then you punish them, scruff shake, squirt water, wack with newspaper. You can avoid it, but he specifically told me that never to redirect.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: The bottom line is that they once they nip you, then you punish them, scruff shake, squirt water, wack with newspaper. You can avoid it, but he specifically told me that never to redirect.


Clearly you have made up your mind on this, so just keep doing what you are doing, and good luck.

BUT, I wish that instead you would be a bit more open minded. The training methods described are definitely one's I've heard of. But also VERY OLD SCHOOL! Just because I learned to train my one dog one way 15 years ago....... doesn't mean that now I can't learn a new and a better way.

Generally, what has worked for me is to figure out why my puppy is biting. And, generally, it's because she want to play. TO PLAY. So for me to come down like a bag of bricks when all she wants is TO PLAY, I feel isn't fair to my puppy.

Instead, I prefer to teach her a NEW way to play so I don't get hurt. That's where the toys and re-direction come so I can TEACH her what I want rather than punish her for what I do not want.

And this is the 'new' and SMART way many of us choose to now train. To TEACH a behavior we want. The old way is to 'correct/punish' when they do wrong. 

Course this is harder. And we have to think. And be smart to come up with a plan. Be consistant and flexible. 

So I can see how you'd rather just use the scruff.................

Here's some other sites from also other reputable dog trainers..

http://mysite.verizon.net/respa75m/id10.html

This site talks about scruffing a puppy but sounds like a more gentle move and with a younger pup http://www.itzarion.com/training.html#tempering

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/understandyourpuppy.htm

Other thing I forgot to mention was scruffing a pup at this age may bring out 'hand shyness' which is a HUGE problem that's difficult to fix down the line.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Any suggestions on how to get our 5 month old GSD to quit biting our 11 yr old and 8 yr old. He will put his teeth on me but I say uh uh no bite and he will lick instead. He thinks that the kids are chew toys. We have tried the scruff shake but that is not working (the breeder told us to use that and other people we have met at the off leash park with GSDs) we have tried trading a toy but that only works if he is in the mood. We know he can do it since he rarely tries to bite me or my husband anymore. I noticed in one of the websites above to use a soda can with pennies. Has anyone tried this??? Does it work??? Do you think it would work???


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Responding to Link's mom:

I would have the pup on a leash in the house. When he is trying to bite the kids, you can use the leash to give him a small correction with the uh uh no bite. I know leashing up a pup is a bit of a pain, but you will see results quickly. You need to fix this now because in a few months he will be considerable bigger and may hurt the kids. 

I would also have the kids do some small OB stuff with him, sits and downs. He needs to see the kids as higher in the pack than he is.

Good luck.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DSuddJust wondering if the pup is to young to start NILF. That method was really helpful when we started it with Rocky, just don't remember how old he was.


Absolutely not too early! I start NILIF immediately - both Dena & Keefer came home at 9 weeks old and as soon as they could sit on command, (and since they are GSDs, geniuses of the dog world, that was pretty much right away!) they had to sit until released to eat their meals. At first I made it very easy, releasing them the second I put the bowl down and took my hands off it, but as they matured I made it more and more challenging for them. That's what I love about NILIF, it's totally adaptable to the age and mental development of the dog, and very clear to them as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: slapshotWe have had our 11 week old for three weeks now. It seems as though we were sold a highly evolved reptile: crocodile to be exact. All family members were mouthed and enjoyed. We have learned that timing has a huge impact on when he gets mouthy. He bites when he gets tired and over stimulated. This is also when sits and downs, and even redirects, have little influence. That is our clue it is time for a little rest in the crate. Like clockwork, he will fall into a deep sleep. We can now almost predict at what time of day the crocodile will show itself. So, for us, clearly understanding his play and downtime ryhthms have helped limit a lot of the biting. Though he (we!) still has a long way to go. LOL


Great post! I used timeouts as well, and they worked very well. In fact, I STILL use them even though Dena will be 4 in September and Keefer will be 3 in August. Sometimes they just get too rowdy in the house and don't repond when I tell them to cut it out. If they blow me off, I say "that's it, time-out!" in a cheerful tone of voice, and they go right to their crates. 

When they were puppies I'd often do frequent brief timeouts, such as when they came out of the crate still wound up and biting - back in they'd go. It sends the message that I won't tolerate the behavior and playtime will immediately stop and I'll go away. Play nice and the fun continues. Other times I'd leave them in for awhile to cool their jets, and after the initial fussing they'd calm down and take a nap. When I let them out later they'd be much subdued.

I just had to add I can't imagine paying $425 for a single private session with a trainer!







Here that would pay for between two and three rounds of 6 or 7 week group classes. Surely there are other training options? I'm not particularly impressed with that trainer's advice.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: rosielockThe bottom line is that they once they nip you, then you punish them, scruff shake, squirt water, wack with newspaper. You can avoid it, but he specifically told me that never to redirect.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wow-- $425 for a trainer for one session, all of the negative "training" techniques that drive people wild on this forum and 14 miles of walking a day for a 4 month old puppy. 

Think I'll sit this one out...


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

I have been having the same trouble with Mandalay being so mouthy. I am starting to use what I did with my Doberman and it is S-L-O-W-L-Y showing progress. 

I dont like to use the crate for time out since I dont want to have the crate up forever. Once she is housebroken, the crate will go spend its life in the garage. The dog will remain in the house, though, so I have a time out station. When she gets too nippy and is not able to control herself with my gentle intervention, she goes in the corner. When she tries to eat the cat, she goes in the corner. When she jumps up on the counter and tries to steal things, she goes in the corner. She is told to "Go to the naughty corner" each time. She sees that we are still out having fun and ignoring her while she is in time out and she gets a little better each time. This is going to take a while, but it worked with the Dobie.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

I paid good money here, I don't believe what he's doing is bad or abusive. It's not like he picked up my dog and threw him against a tree. He just calmly grabbed him and told him to stop. I really appreciated that he was thinking of thoughts from the dog's point of view. This guy studies german shepherds and he trained police dogs for 3 years and he had previous experiences. I believe what he says is right so if you want to mock the amount of money I paid him then go ahead but I'm going to defend myself okay? I said this before, I think that maybe I am overdoing the exercises so I will stop over doing them.

Maybe I sound harsh because of my horrible english. This trainer, ***PM OP for name of trainer***, is the very best trainer here. If what he's doing is wrong, well then I dont know what to do. What you have advised me to do here I have tried. All I want to know is how to scruff shake. Everything that he said made sense to me. He said that Leivi is a very good natured dog and he could be perfect if I be more strict.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If you would click on the links I posted, there is info on scruff shakes that may help. Don't just dismiss everything I post cause you don't agree with me. There is other info and I am open minded enough to post it.

If you go to google.com and put in puppy scruffing you should have some hits with info to click on that you may agree with.

Your English is fine.









Everything your trainer recommended is 100% the way I used to train my pups over 15 yrs ago, until I learned a new way that worked better for me. So clearly what he's telling you isn't outrageous and I don't recall any of us comparing it to 'picking up your dog and throwing it against a tree'. It is not, you are right.

In the vein that you can teach an old dog new tricks, with me as that 'old dog' I did learn a new and better way. It did take more time! A scruffing CAN seem to be an immediate and quick fix. But I am not into a quick fix anymore. I am into TRAINING and TEACHING and having my dogs learn.

People are giving many good recommendations on this posting. All that HAVE worked for them. Well worth reading and learning from.

Here is ANOTHER forum that can be used as a resource:

TONS of questions answered on puppy biting here:

http://leerburg.com/qabiting.htm

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/26915/page/19

http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

There are many ways to train pups and dogs. The internet is full of good advice, MaggieRoseLee posted some links, did you look at those. There are a great many people who don't have access to trainers that use newer, kinder, gentler forms of training.

If you are comfortable with the trainer then continue to use those methods. Since you were there and watched him twice apply the scruff shake then what do you really need from us? There is no big difficulty in doing it, if that is what you want to do then do it, there is no special technique, just do as you watched your trainer do. If I was paying over $400 for a trainer I would be watching his/her every move like a hawk so I didn't miss a thing.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think it is attitude anyway, more than action. A good, firm ah noise and eye contact seems to always work better for me than grabbing at a dog. 

Bite inhibition: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153716&page=1#Post153716 is not just about a dog learning that if I bite I get punished, but it is about learning how to NOT bite, how to use a soft mouth, and how to control themselves. A dog who has learned good bite inhibition is TOTALLY different than a dog who has learned not to bite. 

As far as adult dog/dominant dogs doing this to puppies, I live with a pack and have had foster puppies here-none are related-and their most common methods used are...ready? Redirection, yelping and ignoring! Not one of them-even the mother types-has ever grabbed and shook a puppy by the neck. Do the puppies get reprimanded verbally by the other dogs-absolutely!

And puppies who have been here and gone on (or stayed) have the nicest bite inhibition you could imagine and I have had to do nothing (sorry-I realize it is much harder to teach as a human alone) because my dogs do it so well and so calmly. 

What makes this even more amazing is one had no desire to develop bite inhibition and was being allowed to bite in a previous foster home. She came here, they did their thing (which I copy if I ever need to with her) and literally, they saved her life. So I am a believer in their methods!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: rosielockI paid good money here...


Yes you did, and nobody is trying to mock you about it. I am simply amazed that a trainer is able to charge that much money for a private session. I live in a very expensive part of the US, and a single private lesson would be about a third or fourth of that. So what I was expressing was amazement, not mockery. 

Not only that, his methods sound like plain old fashioned compulsion, which is not the best way to train a puppy of any breed, IMHO. More strictness is not usually what's needed. Puppies do what puppies do because they don't know any better. They are born knowing how to eat, sleep, bark, bite, chew, dig, and pee and poop. It's our job to help them understand how to live in our world, which means where to eliminate, what to chew on and what not, when to bark and when not to, etc. 

Redirecting to a toy is not rewarding the puppy for biting you, it's teaching him what is an appropriate chew toy. And helping him to understand that if he doesn't play by your rules he doesn't get to play at all is much more clear than punishment. Show him what TO do, not what NOT to do. Have you heard of NILIF, Nothing in Life is Free? Having him work for what he wants is an excellent way to establish your leadership and teach him self control without harsh methods or punishment when he misbehaves, and it's very clear to the dog.

And, don't worry, your English is excellent.


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## sume747 (Apr 3, 2008)

How long did you work on redirecting the nipping? For me it took a good while before I thought "hey, he's starting to get it", and even now he still gets me good once in a while. My pup is 4 months and I thought at one point it just was never going to work, but it did. It is not something that you are going to be able to fix in an afternoon of playing. 

Just because you pay alot of money for a trainer does not mean you are buying the best. I am not saying that he is not the best cause I have never met, seen, or heard of him but the amount you pay for something does not always mean it's the greatest.

I have not been a member long but the advice I have gotten from this site has helped alot. These people only want to help you.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI think it is attitude anyway, more than action. A good, firm ah noise and eye contact seems to always work better for me than grabbing at a dog.


Yes it is. Morgan was a nippy puppy (and I got her at 6months old with bigger teeth and a stronger jaw). I used to put on my best mean face and tell her NIEN, BAD GIRL! Repeated often...


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## sume747 (Apr 3, 2008)

Link's mom-

I tried the pennies in a bottle and Duece thought it was a fabulous new toy. And in fact it is now his favorite toy (with supervision of course). I keep him on a leash almost always and when he starts to get nippy with my 9 yr old son to the point where he is no longer listening to him I get in between them put my hands on my hips, glare and tell him "no bite Josh", then redirect. It usually works but I also have to keep an eye on my son to make sure he is not giving Duece mixed signals.(he likes to get on floor and roll around with puppy and let him bite his shoes, shirt, whatever), so it's actually both the kid and puppy I have redirect. I also have a daughter but he rarely messes with her, I think because she has autism he knows to be easier, but I have both of them feed him at times and pretend they are eating his food before giving it to him, to help with letting him know they rank higher than him.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: sume74
> 
> Just because you pay alot of money for a trainer does not mean you are buying the best. I am not saying that he is not the best cause I have never met, seen, or heard of him but the amount you pay for something does not always mean it's the greatest.


I've trained with a lot of the trainers in my region. Sometimes because I've had particular issues. Mostly because I've wanted to see what others could offer me. Of the trainers I've had, three are truly excellent. Two are good. One was barely ok. 

And two were actually awful. One was a class instructor. After the second week, I didn't let the trainer approach my dog because she was doing things so wrong in interacting with him, but I hung in there to see if I could learn stuff. After the fourth week, I didn't go back. It was an 8 week course. 

The other -- the most expensive one (who was very highly recommended by someone I like and admire) -- stunk for a variety reasons that kind of make sense now. Different breeds between my friend and me. Different backgrounds in training. Different needs in terms of what we would be doing with our dogs. But she advertises herself as a GSD specialist.







The trainer really was awful, and after a week of trying her approaches, I had to toss it all out because I could see problems developing. (I approach things with an open mind, esp when I spend that kind of money.) A complete waste of A LOT of money. 

What works for some people doesn't work for everyone. What works for aggressive biting dogs doesn't work for puppies. What works for people who want a quick fix (even if it crushes their dog's spirit) doesn't work for me, who wants my dog to be a _confident_ *thinking* <u>partner</u>. 

So, as the others have said, paying a lot of money guarantees nothing. And no one is mocking you for paying a lot of money. We live and learn. And I guess if it feels right to do to continue on the course you're on, then go for it. 

But there is something about the whole process of learning that I don't think you quite understand. Positive reinforcement isn't just used to teach "tricks." It's how we teach children to speak. It's one of the ways we rehabilitate criminals in prisons. It's what gets most of us to work every day. If you don't get paid, would you still go to work? If not, then the reinforcer is your salary. If you would still go to work, it's because you get respect, esteem and a sense of value from your work. Well, respect, esteem and value are also positive reinforcers. They motivate you to go to work. 

A GSD pup might work for toys and food. As he gets older, you can almost always substitute OUT toys and food and substitute IN praise and petting. My GSD works because he loves to work. When he's working, he doesn't want to be petted; he doesn't want a treat; and he barely acknowledges praise. He likes to work. It's what he does. He's happy when he's doing it; I guess he gets esteem and a sense of value, same as many others, when they go to work. 

He's not a trained walrus trained to jump through a hoop. He's an evolved thinking partner. And he's not so unique from many of the dogs here on this forum. Your little pup needs his own little "job" -- hide and seek, puppy/obedience classes, complicated games of fetch, whatever you create for the two of you. Something to keep him learning, his brain busy, and his body moving. That's why we often suggest NILIF, btw. It's all part of the same idea -- "working" for a living. Then you're the boss. Then you <u>earn </u>respect. 

JMO.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You *don't* want him to bite you. Well, then what DO you want him to do? Sit nicely? Play with a toy? Lay down near you? Buy a clicker, then when the dog bites-- tell him SIT, then click and treat for that. 

You are walking your young puppy too far each day. A 25 minutes walk, as 3K9Mom said, is fine, a few times a day. He is a youngster and his bones and joints, how entire body, is still growing.

There is no quick fix for this. The scruff shake would have worked for you by now, if it would work. This may simply take work on your part-- redirecting takes much time. It is worth it, to preserve your relationship.

I would never trust a trainer who made a blanket statement indicating GSDs were all too tough for soft methods. Each dog is an individual. Sounds like maybe this trainer has a hammer, and each problem only looks like a nail. I may be wrong, but, I think this is no quick fix-- you need to work with that puppy. The pup is only doing what is natural because he wants to play, to get his energy out, because his gums itch and hurt him so he needs to chew and bite, and because this is baby behavior. A scruff shake can be effective, or, it can make your puppy think you are crazy and trust you less. In any case, the pup needs your time and your brain to be working his brain. Then, you will have a dog who is not distrustful of you, but a dog who can not wait to see what fun you will teach him today.. so many fun training games to share.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

Alright I want to clearify that I am not from the US and I an amazed also that you can train a dog for a third of 425. I said this before that I only want to know how to scruff shake, I did not come here to start a disagreement. He did not ever say that ALL shepherd puppies are rough, he said 70% of them. He said that he would not train shepherds and labs the same. I mean why would you? Shepherds are protections and they will be more rough isn't that right? Isn't that why shepherds need FIRMER leadership? Labradors and shepherds are DIFFERENT! My dog absolutly not interested in food when he bites me. I yelped and ignored but he's so busy biting me that he doesn't even notice. He will ignore the pennies and water bottle. He will not go into his cage when he's bad, when I force him to go in, he nips my arm. Am I supposed to take that? How silly would I be if I just let him nip my arm while we are walk. He will not be distracted by a food or bicycle I even brought a toy with me once, I throw the ball. He's not interested and I did this redirecting for 2 months.

Please listen, I just want to know if anyone knows how to scruff shake. If you want to express you're oppinion against mine, that's okay. But I unless you have credentials like this guy, how would I know that your way to train is the best?


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerThere are many ways to train pups and dogs. The internet is full of good advice, MaggieRoseLee posted some links, did you look at those. There are a great many people who don't have access to trainers that use newer, kinder, gentler forms of training.
> 
> If you are comfortable with the trainer then continue to use those methods. Since you were there and watched him twice apply the scruff shake then what do you really need from us? There is no big difficulty in doing it, if that is what you want to do then do it, there is no special technique, just do as you watched your trainer do. If I was paying over $400 for a trainer I would be watching his/her every move like a hawk so I didn't miss a thing.


I know what you are saying, I really did watch him like a hawk. He only shook my puppy only once, not twice like you said. You are wrong on the second point, I am doing it wrong I'm sure of it. When he did it, my puppy didn't even struggle, but when I did it, he bit me really hard. I did do the trainer's way but he had some special trick or something that he didn't tell me about. Yes I have looked at the links, thanks for them. I'm still not clear on how scruff shake because it's not as easy as grabbing the scruff and shaking it like you said.

If I didn't want help from you why am I hear why don't you ask yourself that? If I don't get any help on scruff shaking here or anywhere, I will ask him to come again. It's no big deal I would rather have a well behaved dog than one of the crazy shepherd dogs who always jumps on people of nips for fun, and pulls on the leash and go onto my bed and couch. Obviously what I'm trying to do is TEACH.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

To the person who said that mommas don't nip their puppies, I saw it few times, maybe you have never, but I have. It's when the puppies going to close to momma when she is eating I saw them do it. There was a very gentle shepherd who scruff her puppy once. The owner said that was what momma dogs do when her puppies don't respect her personal space. That's where people learned to scruff shake their puppies, from the momma dog's. They are not just inventing other ways. I appreciate the fact that they try to use dog psycology. I know you will say that people are not dogs so they should not correct dogs like dogs do. but I think that if I want to teach them to respect me, then I should speak THEIR language and that's my choice. I dont want to offend members here, but all I'm asking for is how to scruff shake and I have said this five times before.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I understand that you are try to communicate with your pup in a natural way, but I think you might have missed a few steps in the momma to pup communication. Momma dog will put up with a lot of stuff from her pups, then she will give them all kinds of communication in posture, then a slight growl, then a growl with a jaw snap that doesn't connect with the pups skin at all, then the last straw for momma dog is to give her pup a the growl no response from pup then she will apply as fast quick nip, that startles the pup.

I understand what you are saying, I had a 5 week old working line pup that had NO bite inhabition. This was almost 20 years ago. I tried the yelp when he bit me, I swear he smiled and said alright I have her where I want her now. So I had to figure out some thing else. I found that if he had something in his mouth, he wasn't biting me. So I had tons of toys, tennis balls, small rope tugs and some of those darn toys that squeak. Once I got this little moster playing with the toys, if he was getting mouthy, then I just grabbed his rope tug and we played a little tug. He would then prace around for the next 20 mins. like he was King of the World.

If you want him to be more interested in the toys, I take a little bacon grease and smear it on the toys so they are more attractive than I am.

The scruff shake didn't work for me, he was a tough little butt and thought "Great" she wants to play and go a round or so, he was always ready for the fight game. Force on him just put him into fight mode. When we got him, neither mom nor the littermates wanted any thing to do with them because he wanted to fight and bite all the time.

So with my long post, what I am trying to say is you are trying to short cut the momma communication. There are always warnings and I have seen momma dogs trying to get her pups interested in something else.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

I was watching Beau's and Riley's mom deal with her gator babies. When they did too much nipping on her she would pick up their rear end with her mouth. It worked for Yana (the mom) and it was quite funny to watch.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rosielock
> This guy studies german shepherds and he trained police dogs for 3 years and he had previous experiences.


The police don't purchase puppies for their K9 units. Your trainer maybe the best for training young working dogs but he may not give you the best advice for bonding and establishing trust with your puppy.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Cassidys mom wasnt sure how young but I know it really helped with Rocky and we still do it.


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## rosielock (May 7, 2008)

The only trainers here in my area are the people who has dogs and who have figured out ways to train their dogs themselves or I was desperate so I had to call the police department and ask if they could send one of the handlers there. So I called him again and I've got a date at the end of this month so he will show me for free. Thanks for posting guys and good bye forever. 

Love,

Rosevnija

ps could one of the moderators please delete the name of the trainer I posted here thanks, I feel a little embarrased.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, good luck to you too. I hope that you will still give positive training a chance and not just get fixated on beating your dog into submission technique. Personally I would never allow anybody except me to correct my puppy or young dog, I've learnt this lesson a hard way.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I removed the trainer's name for you, but I'm sorry you don't wish to stay and participate on the board. There is so much information and good advice here from people who have owned GSDs and other dogs for many, many years. People who train service or law enforcement dogs, people who compete in sports such as Schutzhund or agility, or just have well behaved companion dogs. The board is a great resource for behavior and training issues, health problems, and nutritional information. We could be very helpful if you would let us. 

Good luck and best wishes with your puppy.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

We have started using a can with the 23 pennies in it. It really seems to work. He doesn't like the sound. My daughter has been carrying it around with her and he has left her alone ever since. Hopefully it will last since we just started yesterday in the late afternoon.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rosielock I dont want to offend members here, but all I'm asking for is how to scruff shake and I have said this five times before.


1. You could have just posted a message that said "How do I scruff shake?" without all the other stuff you don't want commented on.

2. For $425, I would think that this trainer who is so incredible would have done a better job teaching you how to do it in the private lesson. JMO.

Good luck to you and your pup!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Please listen, I just want to know if anyone knows how to scruff shake.


And if, instead of getting defensive, you would read some of the sites/links I posted, some also use the scruff shake.

You do realize the breed of dog most of the rest of us have, right? So for you to say 70% of GSD's have to be dealt with the way your trainer recommended, and ALL of us recommending a different way THAT WORKED FOR OUR GSD'S (see, the same breed) isn't really listening to us at all.

Did you even bother going to the leerburg.com site I suggested? Much more protection oriented than this site. And another HUGE population of dog owners with the same breed you are involved with. They also have a forum you can join, just like here, to ask the exact same question. Maybe they will respond differently.



> Quote: Isn't that why shepherds need FIRMER leadership?


 My knowledge of being the leader isn't based on having to actually come down harder on a GSD than other breeds to 'prove' I'm the boss. I'm the boss for MANY reasons that don't involve me saying a word, or touching my dog. I'm actually getting that this 'biting' situation may be just a small part of a much bigger problem, that (in my opinion) will not be fixed by scruffing.

Some people have natural leadership roles with dogs, most of the best dog trainers just 'do'. They hold themselves in a way, speak in a way, interact in a way that dogs just 'get'. NEW PEOPLE (like a new trainer) automatically have this while a pup is trying to figure it out. 

Most of us have to LEARN to be a good dog leader, and not in one lesson. Maybe not with even just one instructor. Maybe, like me, it takes months and months of classes. Lot's of reading, seminars and clinics. And don't just poopoo and dismiss this. I have a GSD whose parents are BOTH from West Germany, and have Sch titles. I've got her into the top rankings for Agility in the USA, and have never scruffed her.










What's worked for me, and I agree I DO need to be a strong leader, is information like the following:

It takes a Pack to Raise a Puppy 

Leadership Basics 

Relationship Based Training


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> Please listen, I just want to know if anyone knows how to scruff shake.



I believe that shaking a young pup can shake his confidence. MaggieRoseLee pointed out that it can cause hand shyness. I won't give advice that I think is detrimental to any puppy or any dog. 

We members here may disagree (often passionately) on a variety of things. But the one thing you'll find is that we are consistent about is that we want what's best for dogs -- ours and each other's. I don't give advice unless I think it will help a dog.


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## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Link's MomWe have started using a can with the 23 pennies in it. It really seems to work.


23 pennies? Is 24 overdoing it?


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## Helly (Mar 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RobinB
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Link's MomWe have started using a can with the 23 pennies in it. It really seems to work.
> ...


and 22 isn't enough


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## Dannay (Oct 31, 2006)

and 25 is right out







because 23 shall be the number thou shall count.

(Monty Python to anyone wondering, haha)


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey, hey now. HAHA!! I read it in the post from Leeburg so make fun of him for the 23 PENNIES!!! It is working that is all that counts.


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