# Big Steps for Bob Barker



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Bob Barker and I started a new training regime thanks to Leerburg and Ruby Bell-Horn! 

Bob as some of you know has a reaction issue that needs work, so today we went to the dog park. But not to go in and play like usual,, but to use it as a training tool. Starting about 1/4 km away we walked just to the point where Bob could see and hear the other dogs playing. He reacted as I suspected, got completely pumped up and started barking. With a couple good corrections we stayed at that distance, walking in circles using different methods so he will eventually learn to focus on me. Eventually I want to be able to watch beside the fence of the park with no reaction from him. 

In the picture the dog park is at the tree line in the back with about 10 or 15 dogs racing around having fun. May not seem like a lot but it's a big step for him. 
We made sure that we ended on a good note getting to chase his favourite toy ... The tennis ball. 

Wish us luck that we keep going in the right direction


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

One step at a time still gets you to your destination... Good job to you both and good luck!


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Good job Bob!Keep up the good work


----------



## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

That is awesome! If I can ask, what kind of corrections do you use? (leash pop?) I am trying to sort out the best type of correction for my boy, too


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Yes, good work.....been there . It's a long road but every and any improvement is noteworthy and inspiring. I have developed an opinion regarding the particular approach you are utilizing....certainly the awareness of the handler to instill a new mentality in the dog is paramount but any time the dog goes over threshold during the modification period...it's 2 steps backwards.


SuperG


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Congratulations on your hard work! But you do know you're jumping in at the deep end of the pool here. Usually you work up to the point your act with the dogs behind fences on walks thing?

But if it's working for you and your dog, once again good job!


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

We did exactly that SuperG... He would be doing great so we would move a little closer and as soon as he showed signs of any distraction or he just had no interest in me... Back to the car we went and we started over. 
He did great. I'm really proud of him  



And the correction that I did was a pop of the collar. He had his ECollar on for when/if he got too worked up and I only needed to use it twice in the time we were working. I in all honestly think it depends on the dog which is going to work best for your dog. I've had dogs where just a pop of the collar works, and others that it doesn't. Trial and error


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Congratulations on your hard work! But you do know you're jumping in at the deep end of the pool here. Usually you work up to the point your act with the dogs behind fences on walks thing?[
> 
> 
> What do you mean work your way up to it? That's essentially what I am doing.


----------



## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

bob_barker said:


> He did great. I'm really proud of him
> 
> And the correction that I did was a pop of the collar. He had his ECollar on for when/if he got too worked up and I only needed to use it twice in the time we were working. I in all honestly think it depends on the dog which is going to work best for your dog. I've had dogs where just a pop of the collar works, and others that it doesn't. Trial and error


Thanks (re: correction type) Exactly--trial and error...you should be proud of both of you...I just introduced the forest preserve dock (with a flexible lip and the landing) to Leo today; you'd think I was sending him to the guillotine! Cajoling, + action w/treat and a bit of persuasion did it...trial and error


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sorry maybe I misread? Just that most folks start smaller, one or dogs behind a fencein there neighborhood and then work up to the walking outside the dog park thing! That's a big test for most dogs


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Sorry maybe I misread? Just that most folks start smaller, one or dogs behind a fencein there neighborhood and then work up to the walking outside the dog park thing! That's a big test for most dogs



Oh we live in the suburbs with dogs in almost every house. We have accomplished walking down the roads in our neighbourhood and ignoring all dogs barking in Windows and fences a like. 
So I figured it was time for the "next step". 

I've made the mistake of getting him in the habit of the dog park ( I know I know tisk tisk, we only go now when there are only dogs we know in there). So pulling up to the park is his weakness.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK I didn't know! Background stuff was done! 

So now it sounds like pre psrk craziness in the car is the issue??


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> So now it sounds like pre psrk craziness in the car is the issue??



Yes, he is fine the whole ride until we turn onto the road... And then the whistling starts... Correcting while driving is hard though... So if you have any tips on that part by all means.... 
Keep in mind he is wearing his ECollar during this time as well


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> So pulling up to the park is his weakness.


LOL....made me laugh...if your dog is anything like mine...they know the way to the dog park and get more amped up the closer you get. I worked through that as well....from a level of 10 being obnoxiously annoying.....she's at a 5 now....used to be a 9 maybe 10.

I'd stop when she would get too vocal...pulled over on the side of the road....she heeded my "advice"..we proceeded....she's start up again...we'd stop. I'll bet I may have stopped 10 times on many a trip. Somehow..and I may be wrong....but making an impatient dog wait for what it wants..once it quits acting like a jackass and then proceeding does make a dent in the dog's behavior. Believe me, from my first dog and probably second...I learned how well they trained me....instead of the proper way.


SuperG


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok that is quite a bit different!

My dogs were perfect in the car, you did not know they were in the car unless you turned around and saw them!

Part of that was my dogs were absolutely bomb proof in the car! They were not allowed to step out of the car until I "explicitly" told them to do so! Windows down or all doors open, they don't step out of the car unless instructed to do so! 

Most likely that meant to them that arriving at "there go for a run spot" meant nothing! We can't leave the car until instructed no point in acting like a fool!

So maybe your approaching your problem from the wrong end??


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip makes a valid point.....I know with my current shepherd...she knows she has to stay in the vehicle until released.....it's a good area to easily control them and make them earn the release.


SuperG


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Ok that is quite a bit different!
> 
> My dogs were perfect in the car, you did not know they were in the car unless you turned around and saw them!
> 
> Part of that was my dogs were absolutely bomb proof in the car! They were not allowed to step out of the car until I "explicitly" told them to do so! Windows down or all doors open, they don't step out of the car unless instructed to do so!



This is like my guys too. They are angels, not a peep out of them other than the occasional snot at the window for me to roll it down, they sit and wait for me to "release" them out of the car I can, open all four doors and they will wait until I tell them otherwise. It is Literally until we turn onto that road and then it's as if all training as gone out the window. 

Maybe I will try what you said SuperG and just keep stopping, until he chills out.


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Impulse control? Sorry, I have to chime in. I think training/playing impulse games helps with controlling the excitement. Wait at the door, wait for food, wait to get out of car, wait to move forward, etc. even the trick of putting a cookie balanced on the end of snout then saying 'catch' is an impulse control game. All helps in keeping the excitement controlled. The big trick is using impulse control outside of a dog park. I think you have to be more exciting then the dogs. And your dog has to have impulse control.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> LOL....made me laugh...if your dog is anything like mine...they know the way to the dog park and get more amped up the closer you get. I worked through that as well....from a level of 10 being obnoxiously annoying.....she's at a 5 now....used to be a 9 maybe 10.
> 
> I'd stop when she would get too vocal...pulled over on the side of the road....she heeded my "advice"..we proceeded....she's start up again...we'd stop. I'll bet I may have stopped 10 times on many a trip. Somehow..and I may be wrong....but making an impatient dog wait for what it wants..once it quits acting like a jackass and then proceeding does make a dent in the dog's behavior. Believe me, from my first dog and probably second...I learned how well they trained me....instead of the proper way.
> 
> ...


Have you heard of the dog that learned to take the bus to the dog park? Let me see if I can find the link...

Here it is 
http://youtu.be/Umr-_rCtug4


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Impulse control? Sorry, I have to chime in. I think training/playing impulse games helps with controlling the excitement. Wait at the door, wait for food, wait to get out of car, wait to move forward, etc. even the trick of putting a cookie balanced on the end of snout then saying 'catch' is an impulse control game. All helps in keeping the excitement controlled. The big trick is using impulse control outside of a dog park. I think you have to be more exciting then the dogs. And your dog has to have impulse control.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your assessment but no one has put a lable on it until you did! 

That being said I think I see a solution to the problem and actually it's nothing new just a less direct approach. 

First the place command:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! : TheDogTrainingSecret.com

Very useful command and "car proofing" all in one!

And Sit on Dog just because it's simple does not mean it has no value!
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog.html

Looks like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2WgOZUebnY

I think those things will get you where you want to be!


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks guys!! 

I'm so proud of how he did in just the first day, I know it is going to take time and PATIENCE! But he can do it. 
It's all the fun of these guys right!? 
I love the training part!


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Have you heard of the dog that learned to take the bus to the dog park? Let me see if I can find the link...
> 
> Here it is
> http://youtu.be/Umr-_rCtug4


Great video....I'll have to say the owner is mighty trusting...but it sounds like the dog has "street smarts".


SuperG


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

bob_barker said:


> Thanks guys!!
> 
> I'm so proud of how he did in just the first day, I know it is going to take time and PATIENCE! But he can do it.
> It's all the fun of these guys right!?
> I love the training part!


You and Bob Barker are doing a great job! Don't start getting caught up in the folks here who are questioning your methods etc. . You're experiencing success with your pup - obviously you are on the right track! Well done! :happyboogie:


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Sorry... Candice and Bob are doing a fabulous job and methods are right on! I was just referring to controlling the excitement we all feel when you get close to what we want.... Whether it's in a car or greeting someone at the door. And Chip18, I have followed your hyperlinking advice and think you are spot on. Place and sitting on the dog are great training tools. Ruby and I practice those as well, and it started after you posted the link on another thread awhile ago. Also - leerburg's use of dog parks and who pets my dog. I see a theme.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Sorry... Candice and Bob are doing a fabulous job and methods are right on! I was just referring to controlling the excitement we all feel when you get close to what we want.... Whether it's in a car or greeting someone at the door.


I think your post held great information!


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

bob_barker said:


> We did exactly that SuperG... He would be doing great so we would move a little closer and as soon as he showed signs of any distraction or he just had no interest in me... Back to the car we went and we started over.
> He did great. I'm really proud of him
> 
> And the correction that I did was a pop of the collar. * He had his ECollar on for when/if he got too worked up and I only needed to use it twice in the time we were working. * I in all honestly think it depends on the dog which is going to work best for your dog. I've had dogs where just a pop of the collar works, and others that it doesn't. Trial and error


I'd suggest that you NOT use the Ecollar like this unless you've done quite a bit of foundation work with the dog so that he clearly understands what the stim means. It sounds as if you're just using it as a correction when he gets "too worked up" to respond to the leash corrections. Doing this can create a highly dangerous dog. He's likely to associate the pain that you cause with what are fairly high levels of stim that are typically used in this scenario, with the other dogs, not with his aggressive display. You can shut off * the display * of aggression, but not the aggression itself. This means that he stops showing you the warning signs of it, the barking, lunging, growling, hair standing up, tail up, etc., that shows that he's getting worked up. You can get a dog that goes "from calm to murder" without warning. 

Instead of doing it this way, I suggest using THIS PROTOCOL that I developed to stop police K−9's from chasing cats. The only change is that you substitute a dog for the cat.


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Question for Lou Castle - after someone has successfully completed the 'crittering' protocol with e-collar, does the dog have to continue wearing the e-collar (as a reminder for the dog)? Does that question make sense?


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Another question for Lou- if the dog has gone through the come-sit-place protocol using e-collar, is it then OK to use the e collar if the dog is lunging at other dogs (cars, people on bikes, etc.)? Basically then correcting the dog for breaking a loose heel rather than aggressing. The process would be tell dog to heel (non-competition heel), correct with verbal no and e-collar when dog breaks heel to lunge at other dog... or do you consider that a slippery slope and difficult to make clear to the dog. 

It seems difficult to apply the crittering protocol to cover "all things that move" which trigger the chase drive in some dogs. Instead might it make sense to correct the dog for breaking a heel (or sit, down, etc.)? Curious to hear your thoughts... am always trying to learn more from the experts.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> You can shut off * the display * of aggression, but not the aggression itself. This means that he stops showing you the warning signs of it, the barking, lunging, growling, hair standing up, tail up, etc., that shows that he's getting worked up. You can get a dog that goes "from calm to murder" without warning.
> 
> 
> .




What if the dog is not an aggressive dog, and he is barking out of excitement?


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Question for Lou Castle - after someone has successfully completed the 'crittering' protocol with e-collar, does the dog have to continue wearing the e-collar (as a reminder for the dog)? Does that question make sense?


--- I just read 'collar wise' on Lou Castle's web site. One just has to vary the times used. Have the dog wear the collar other than for training.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Question for Lou Castle - after someone has successfully completed the 'crittering' protocol with e-collar, does the dog have to continue wearing the e-collar (as a reminder for the dog)? Does that question make sense?


It does make sense but the real question RM is _"after someone has successfully completed *ANY training with ANY tool * , does the dog have to continue wearing the *the tool * (as a reminder for the dog)? "_

NOW it makes sense. If an owner/trainer wants the dog to work naked, it can be done. The Ecollar is no different than any other tool in this regard. I do recommend that the Ecollar be worn by the dog anytime he's out of the home, for insurance purposes.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Another question for Lou- if the dog has gone through the come-sit-place protocol using e-collar, is it then OK to use the e collar if the dog is lunging at other dogs (cars, people on bikes, etc.)? Basically then correcting the dog for breaking a loose heel rather than aggressing. The process would be tell dog to heel (non-competition heel), correct with verbal no and e-collar when dog breaks heel to lunge at other dog... or do you consider that a slippery slope and difficult to make clear to the dog.


Dogs trained with this protocol simply don't lunge at other dogs. Lunging at _"cars, people on bikes, etc."_ is a completely different issue. I don't suggest merely hitting the button for doing the latter. Instead, give the here command, make a U-turn, stimming as you turn and releasing the button as soon as the dog starts to turn to move with the handler. This is identical to the second phase of teaching the recall, "the walkaways." I don't use "no" for such things. preferring to instead use the appropriate affirmative command, e.g. "here, sit, etc." 



Muskeg said:


> It seems difficult to apply the crittering protocol to cover "all things that move" which trigger the chase drive in some dogs.


It's not intended to cover _"all things that move."_ Rather it covers the specific species of animal that's used in the protocol. That being said, a few dogs DO stop chasing "everything that moves." A few dogs will only stop chasing individuals of the species used in the protocol. And many dogs will stop chasing animals in the same size range as the animal used. This allows for many dogs, for the substitution of other species. For example, many SAR folks will use a small horse to substitute for deer, and a cat to substitute for squirrels, raccoons, etc. 



Muskeg said:


> Instead might it make sense to correct the dog for breaking a heel (or sit, down, etc.)? Curious to hear your thoughts... am always trying to learn more from the experts.


This requires the presence of the handler. The beauty of the crittering protocol is that is has the dog doing the work of "not chasing." The handler's presence is not required.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

bob_barker said:


> What if the dog is not an aggressive dog, and he is barking out of excitement?


The crittering protocol teaches the dog to turn his head away from the animal that is used as the prey animal. When he does this, the excitement will fade away.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> What if the dog is not an aggressive dog, and he is barking out of excitement?


Explain "barking out of excitement" ?

Does the dog simply stay put when "He reacted as I suspected, got completely pumped up and started barking"...or does he have a desire to go over to the action ?

If the dog simply just barks and has no other reactivity to dogs....all you need is to teach the dog a quiet command. 

I was under the impression the dog was a bit more of a handful to control than just barking. 


SuperG


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

When we step out of the vehicle and as soon as he sees / hears the other dogs I can feel his body tense as he starts barking and pulling on the lead. Now with much work I have stopped the pulling when we get there but he barks with excitement the whole way to the park gate. 
This is the only place he does this. I can walk him around the neighbourhood, downtown, through the country and he is fine.


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Ruby was doing the same thing. I started to read Chp18's posts. I changed my perspective on dog parks. Now we use them for training, but at a distance. Not many people use our dog park anyway. Ruby is more interested in playing tug with me, unless the park is busy. In that case we drive on by.  she doesn't get excited unless there are several dogs playing. We have to drive by our park to go to other places so she doesn't know where we are going. 

You might trying taking him when nobody is at the park. Don't go in, just play with Bob at a distance. When he masters that, have a friend add a dog, and so on. Use the 3 Ds - distance, duration, & distractions. Just something to try. 

I would think by letting him out of car when excited the behavior is being rewarded. If he is acting like that when getting close- maybe being unpredictable by driving by park, turning before you get to park, or just pulling over and stopping would change his mind set.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Ruby'sMom said:


> I would think by letting him out of car when excited the behavior is being rewarded. If he is acting like that when getting close- maybe being unpredictable by driving by park, turning before you get to park, or just pulling over and stopping would change his mind set.


I basically did this....especially the pulling over and stopping on the way to the dog park...took forever in the beginning to get there....10 stops minimum in the beginning...dogs learn the route to the dog park pretty well so it seems...as well as how to test my patience.



SuperG


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

bob_barker said:


> When we step out of the vehicle and as soon as he sees / hears the other dogs I can feel his body tense as he starts barking and pulling on the lead. Now with much work I have stopped the pulling when we get there but he barks with excitement the whole way to the park gate.
> This is the only place he does this. I can walk him around the neighbourhood, downtown, through the country and he is fine.


I'd suggest that you stop going to dog parks. They're an EXCELLENT place for your dog to be victimized by people looking for "bait dogs" for their fighting dogs. They're an EXCELLENT place to expose your dog to dogs that may not be vaccinated. They're an EXCELLENT place to expose your dog to dogs that are plagued by parasites such as mange and scabies. They're an EXCELLENT place for your dog to be ganged up on by a pack of dogs whose owner have no control of them and who will not own up to any responsibility if your dog is injured by their dog. 

I use them for distraction training, never going into them, never exposing my dogs or those of my clients, to the dangers they harbor.


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Geez Lou, when you describe dog parks like the skummiest bar in the worse part of town, I have to cringe.... And take a shower. I will never step foot or paw in a dog park again.  I had already decided that they weren't a healthy choice, but your description cemented my new perception.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Lou, thanks for your reply! Sent you a PM.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Geez Lou, when you describe dog parks like the skummiest bar in the worse part of town, I have to cringe.... And take a shower. I will never step foot or paw in a dog park again.  I had already decided that they weren't a healthy choice, but your description cemented my new perception.


RM I forgot to mention those irresponsible dog owners who look the other way and pretend that their dogs are not pooping, so they don't have to pick it up. There's a much higher chance of stepping in dog poop in a dog park than just about anywhere. ESPECIALLY if you're wearing lug sole shoes or boots. I swear those things are dog poop magnets! 

I recall one couple whose dog had pooped in the parking lot. As they walked away I mentioned that they'd forgotten to pick it up. They responded that they'd get it as they left. Yeah right. 

SOMEONE, I have no idea who it was, carefully placed it on the hood of their car, in case they forgot. At least that's what I was told!


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Ruby'sMom said:


> You might trying taking him when nobody is at the park. Don't go in, just play with Bob at a distance. When he masters that, have a friend add a dog, and so on. Use the 3 Ds - distance, duration, & distractions. Just something to try.




This is what we have been doing and he's doing great  we've only made it over there a couple times so far, but progress is being made  


I only go to dog parks when there are very few dogs, or dogs that I know in there.


----------

