# VERY bad afternoon..DO NOT EVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

We were discussing this earlier today on another thread and it's not something I have ever experienced, nor is it something I ever want to experience again. I am still in shock.

A couple hours ago I sat down after cleaning all day. Thunder the cat that thinks he can take any dog decided to come all the way down stairs. Apollo got a little rough so I was separating them when I hear a gate come down and Brennan(the youngest golden) makes a beeline for the cat. Brennan is almost 4 and does not have a mean bone in his body, or so I thought until today.. He is an obedient dog, gentle as can be. Furniture is flying and Apollo tries grabbing the cat from Brennan. I get Apollo outside and try to get Brennan to release the cat. I couldn't pry his jaws open, I was squirting water in his face, holding his jaws open, I even smacked him in the head--nothing worked. The cat went limp and I started praying. It took about 6 minutes for Brennan to let go a little bit to get a better grip. I took that opportunity to open his jaws all the way and literally pick him up and throw him in the laundry room. The cat was in a ball and was having trouble breathing at first. I grabbed a towel, threw him in the car and called the vet to let them know I was on the way. I was positive he was dead. He meowed a couple times in the car, I kept telling him hang on(talked to him the whole way and I prayed all the way to the vet. They got me in a room immediately and I got to check him, no blood, no puncture marks. I, on the otherhand am completely scratched and bit up. The vet was more concerned with me. Thunder was giving kisses and purring, I'm thinking this is just crazy. They took xrays--no punctures, no broken ribs or bones, breathing(lungs) clear. I do not know how, this is a miracle. 

We are back home and thankfully the cat is fine but I'm not happy with Brennan. The vet thought it was odd and I am bringing Brennsn in for a full check up and blood work. I will never trust him around the cats again. I never expected this, especially from him. He is such a happy pup, loves everything. So it can happen, with any dog, do not let your guard down EVER. 

I will let all of this soak in, the house looked like a war zone when I came home. There was blood everywhere and it was all mine, unbelievable. I will see what happens at the vet with Brennan. This is just mind blowing...


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh my GOSH! How awful!

Sending calming thoughts your way.

Moms


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## kekipi (Oct 31, 2016)

WOW, I was following the other thread but crazy for this to happen right on the heels of that discussion. Glad everyone is (mostly) okay, and thank you for sharing what happened. It's a sobering reminder.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Goodness, that sounds horrible. Glad everyone is okay!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Wow! Just wow! Amazing that Thunder come out with no injuries. You on the other hand...  Make sure you take good care of your wounds. Animal woulds get infected so easily. I'm sorry this happened.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so glad the cat is OK....sorry you got bitten!!!! The worst cat killer I have ever known of was a male Golden....he killed several and his owner just shrugged it off.....Hope you get it all figured out and Thunder has learned some caution and boundaries.


Lee


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Springbrz said:


> Wow! Just wow! Amazing that Thunder come out with no injuries. You on the other hand...  Make sure you take good care of your wounds. Animal woulds get infected so easily. I'm sorry this happened.


Thank you to everyone. 

I am quite sore and I have bited and scratches everyehere. If it ain't burning, it's throbbing. I have washed all wounds and started on antibiotics. They gave Thunder pain meds because he will probably be bruised and sore. I have pain meds but I can't take them tonite because I have to watch Thunder. 

I will heal and I'm very thankful that Thunder is ok. I would never forgive myself if he wasn't. His life is worth way more then my body being sore. 

I do want to thank my three dogs(Misty, Tannor and Robyn) for not jumping in and actually showing concern. Add Midnite to the bunch for when we came home, they were all very concerned with Thunder and kinda looked at Brennan like WTH.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> so glad the cat is OK....sorry you got bitten!!!! The worst cat killer I have ever known of was a male Golden....he killed several and his owner just shrugged it off.....Hope you get it all figured out and Thunder has learned some caution and boundaries.
> 
> 
> Lee


I take this VERY seriously, it will not be shrugged off. I will do everything I can to keep all animals safe. 

I do not think Thunder will learn from this, he is just very stubborn and independent. I will most likely have to close the door of the cat room to keep him safe.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Glad the cat and you will be fine. Poor little Brennan probably just got wrapped up in the chase and didn't even realize what he was doing. Probably triggered by Apollo and decided he wanted the cat himself. Was the cat running when he grabbed him. My dogs I know will chase the cat but only if the cat runs. If the cat walks casually they ignore it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Glad the cat and you will be fine. Poor little Brennan probably just got wrapped up in the chase and didn't even realize what he was doing. Probably triggered by Apollo and decided he wanted the cat himself. Was the cat running when he grabbed him. My dogs I know will chase the cat but only if the cat runs. If the cat walks casually they ignore it.


I would normally agree but the cat wasn't really running. He made a deliberate calculated beeline for the cat. He has knocked that gate down maybe twice when he was excited before. This was intentional and not something that would be normal behavior for him. He has been around the same cats since he was a puppy. He has never showed any signs of this. He has slept with the cats and even played nicely with them. 

This was just very strange.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

How scary, I'm glad Thunder is ok Take care of those wounds. I just kept imaging that more dogs jumped in as I was reading. I'm glad the rest maintained.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

But if Apollo had the cat could that have been enough to make him want it? do they jockey for tugs, ropes, toys at all. Sometimes with mine if there are 3 ropes laying on the floor only one is worth having and they will sit and watch until whoever has it releases or forgets they have it then one will jet in to grab it and run away.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Glad Thunder is ok and hope you mend quickly too. I would chock it up to "now you know" and take whatever precautions necessary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, that must've been a harrowing experience. Glad everyone is ok, mostly. One of my earliest memories is trying to get our dog to accept a kitten. The dog attacked the kitten and my sister yelled at me for trying. I think I was 5 or 6. Try not to hold it against the dog. Dogs are dogs, sometimes they are fine with cats, and sometimes they just aren't.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dogs will feed off of each other. Please be careful.

Maybe Thunder needs a little more attention. I don't have to tell you that cats need a lot of affection. You already know that. 

Maybe you can confine Brennan to a room or crate so Thunder can be out and about a little more. I think Thunder is trying to tell you something.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> But if Apollo had the cat could that have been enough to make him want it? do they jockey for tugs, ropes, toys at all. Sometimes with mine if there are 3 ropes laying on the floor only one is worth having and they will sit and watch until whoever has it releases or forgets they have it then one will jet in to grab it and run away.


Apollo and Brennan never play together. They are to close in age and I don't take a chance. They visit each other through the gate, but they each have their own outside time. Brennan is way to jumpy for Apollo. Oddly enough Apollo end up letting Brennan have the cat, it was much easier getting Apollo away from the cat.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dogs will feed off of each other. Please be careful.
> 
> Maybe Thunder needs a little more attention. I don't have to tell you that cats need a lot of affection. You already know that.
> 
> Maybe you can confine Brennan to a room or crate so Thunder can be out and about a little more. I think Thunder is trying to tell you something.


I agree. Thunder is a very independent cat, he might be mellowing out in old age and now he is looking for attention. The cats have the whole upstairs, I will just make a point of giving Thunder more time. He is my little buddy.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

So sorry to hear it! I'll be keeping you and your crew in my thoughts.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Can you bolt the gate to a wall? I use pressure gates but mine aren't ever supposed to jump on them. If I had cats, I would do something more permanent.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Can you bolt the gate to a wall? I use pressure gates but mine aren't ever supposed to jump on them. If I had cats, I would do something more permanent.


I'm going to have to. In four years this is maybe the third time he did this(knock the gate down) I can just shut the door for now if I have too. Me and him are not on speaking terms right now, he is very lucky he did not kill the cat. When I came home from the vet, I went in there with him to make sure the cat didn't scratch of bite him and he was his happy self.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Are your cuts alright? It sounds painful.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Are your cuts alright? It sounds painful.


I'm in alot of pain. My shoulders are hurting from trying to open his mouth and then I picked him up like a bag of pototes. Mostly everything is scratches and some bruising alreadylike on both arms and my legs. There are like three bites, which I think are from the cat. I just put some vetericyn on it, but I can't wrap the worse bite tight because I got bites on the other hand. My next move is ice.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I'm in alot of pain. My shoulders are hurting from trying to open his mouth and then I picked him up like a bag of pototes. Mostly everything is scratches and some bruising alreadylike on both arms and my legs. There are like three bites, which I think are from the cat. I just put some vetericyn on it, but I can't wrap the worse bite tight because I got bites on the other hand. My next move is ice.


I am not going to back and reread everything, but I think you said you were on antibiotics? I hope you saw a doctor and were given a correct RX. Cat bites are nothing to be trifled with. Keep a good eye on them and get yourself help if you see any signs of infection.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm glad everyone is okay. Thunder was very Lucky you were there. Dogs do set each other off. You must be wiped out hope you are getting rest and feeling better soon.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is what pack behavior can lead to. In a large group you only need a small trigger like your gutsy cat, to set off the entire group. It is like with gangs; you meet them as one indivisual and nothing happens. You put them all together in a group and you get trouble.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> This is what pack behavior can lead to. In a large group you only need a small trigger like your gutsy cat, to set off the entire group. It is like with gangs; you meet them as one indivisual and nothing happens. You put them all together in a group and you get trouble.


I'm just thankful the rest of the dogs stood back and gave me room to help the cat and no one else jumped anyone. I'm even more impressed how concerned they are about Thunder. They all stood by the gate to the bathroom and I let each one go in and smell him through the carrier. Midnite is the one with this love hate relationship and he sat their crying until he got his turn. When my other cat died last year it was Midnite that alerted me and brought me to the cat. I was in shock back then too. I sat there staring at the cat and Midnite was nosing him and nosing my hand like he was telling me to snap out of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not going to back and reread everything, but I think you said you were on antibiotics? I hope you saw a doctor and were given a correct RX. Cat bites are nothing to be trifled with. Keep a good eye on them and get yourself help if you see any signs of infection.


I was actually bitten by a stray cat a while ago(pretty bad) and I'm taking the same stuff they gave me for that. 

I can't be sure it was the cat, I think it was, but my hands were in Brennans mouth and every time I had a little gap I would try to open his mouth and he would clamp back down on my hand. Either way it's a bite and antibiotics are needed, I will keep an eye on it.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

llombardo said:


> I was actually bitten by a stray cat a while ago(pretty bad) and I'm taking the same stuff they gave me for that.
> 
> I can't be sure it was the cat, I think it was, but my hands were in Brennans mouth and every time I had a little gap I would try to open his mouth and he would clamp back down on my hand. Either way it's a bite and antibiotics are needed, I will keep an eye on it.


Do your dogs know the "out" command?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Do your dogs know the "out" command?


Yes. They know out, drop it and leave it. Nothing worked. Brennan is normally very obedient, bouncy, but obedient. Excellent recall, sits, downs, stays, front--all of it. I had a water bottle nearby and I sprayed water right in his face, nothing. His face was still soaking wet when I came home from the vet two hours later, that is how much water I sprayed. I didn't have anything to use to pry his jaws open near me, so I just held his mouth open as best as I could. He is ball crazy and I even asked him where is your ball, it was like he didn't hear me. I don't hit my dogs and I hit him, he didn't even blink. It was quite disturbing to be honest. He was so focused it was scary. He never growled either, he just locked down. I have always said he has powerful jaws, just based on how he eats bones. If I gove all of them a turkey neck, he finishes it within a minute, he doesn't swallow it either. When my older golden was attacked by the Rott as a pup, I held the Rotts jaws open do he couldn't crush my goldens head, my goldens grip was stronger then that Rotts. Just not normal behavior from him.


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## Jp4th (Aug 22, 2016)

I'm sure its very painful.


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## Jp4th (Aug 22, 2016)

So sad to know that these things happened. Hope everything is alright.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

So very sorry this happened! I'd be willing to bet that you are beating yourself up over this, but don't, things happen to all of us sometimes that we can't forsee. Thank goodness you were there and able to deal with the situation immediately. I hope you heal quickly and feel better soon!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I think I would still have a doctor look at those bites. A friend of mine had to have surgery earlier this year due to a bite from her cat. Her hand swelled to triple its normal size after starting antibiotics.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

newlie said:


> So very sorry this happened! I'd be willing to bet that you are beating yourself up over this, but don't, things happen to all of us sometimes that we can't forsee. Thank goodness you were there and able to deal with the situation immediately. I hope you heal quickly and feel better soon!


I'm still in shock, the beating up of myself hasn't started yet. I of all people should have been more careful and I'm already pretty careful. 

I pray that nothing is wrong with Brennan, even though that would better explain what I witnessed. I thank thd man above for giving me calmness in a very scary situation and guiding me along in order to save Thunder. Most of all I'm thankful that Thunder is alive--I can't stress this enough. 

This is a wake up call. I hope that anyone that reads this thread, whether they are a new dog owner or an experienced dog owner understands what can happen in a blink of an eye. Always stay proactive. Don't ever think it can't happen to you and it doesn't matter how gentle or obedient a dog is. They are dogs, they have teeth.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ksotto333 said:


> I think I would still have a doctor look at those bites. A friend of mine had to have surgery earlier this year due to a bite from her cat. Her hand swelled to triple its normal size after starting antibiotics.


I'm watching them carefully. I've had many bites over the years-cats and dogs. This isn't the worse bite, not even close, but where it's at makes it more painful. I promise that if I notice anything I will go to the doctor.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My dogs are fine with my cats, I always say the Bengal, Giza, is actually Csabre's cat...she sleeps beside her, follows her around, will even go in the kennel with her. But every so often when Giza is crossing the room, even Csabre (at 13+!!) will take a few pouncing steps towards her....


just be sure to clean the bites very very very well....I keep betadine scrub/solution on hand for bites....forget peroxide, betadine is the real deal.....I used to have a nasty Bengal x Occicat cross, I swear he was only an F3 at most because he would sit there and let you pet him, then sink his teeth in you with no warning....I learned that bites and scratches will easily get infected and the only way to avoid it was a couple of good applications of betadine.


How is Thunder today??? Still ok??? Let us know what vet says about Brennen.....


Lee


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## Suki's Mom (Nov 24, 2008)

I am so sorry you had to deal with that!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

llombardo said:


> I'm just thankful the rest of the dogs stood back and gave me room to help the cat and no one else jumped anyone. I'm even more impressed how concerned they are about Thunder. They all stood by the gate to the bathroom and I let each one go in and smell him through the carrier. Midnite is the one with this love hate relationship and he sat their crying until he got his turn. When my other cat died last year it was Midnite that alerted me and brought me to the cat. I was in shock back then too. I sat there staring at the cat and Midnite was nosing him and nosing my hand like he was telling me to snap out of it.


Hopefully, they will let Brennan know how badly he messed up and assist in keeping him away from Thunder. I'm glad everyone's (mostly) okay.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm sorry your going through this llombardo. Glad Thunder is ok. That is surprising that Brennan was the aggressor. I have had two dogs who were aggressive with cats. I think the combination of Apollo and Brennan together causes an increase in the prey drive. Had a very bad outcome when Daisy and Lucky made through our garage door after a stray. Its the combination of two dogs and one becomes the victor and then doesn't give up.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Thunder is doing well. I kept him in the carrier in the bathroom over night and checked him ever hour. I put him in the cat room this morning, with the door shut and locked. I gave him his pain meds and of course I got a couple more scratches out of the deal.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Thunder is doing well. I kept him in the carrier in the bathroom over night and checked him ever hour. I put him in the cat room this morning, with the door shut and locked. I gave him his pain meds and of course I got a couple more scratches out of the deal.


Wrap him in a towel like a taco.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I've crushed cat meds and put them in a small bit wet cat food or a little bit of tuna.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Here's another thought. You have a lot of animals. Is it possible that the dog is stressed out in this group and took it out on the cat as if it was the straw that broke the camel's back? Could the cat have instigated it?


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## CatChandler (Jul 25, 2016)

Oh, no! Thank you very much for posting this and I hope you aren't blaming Brennan too too much. My Lab is a gentle soul, but one time she pounced on a young robin and I could not do ANYTHING to get her to let go of it. Jaws of steel. She set it down in the yard and it flew away.

Glad you are getting Brennan checked out but try not to feel awful or resentful if there's no medical explanation. And kudos to the rest of your pack for not jumping in!


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

Oh my goodness! So sorry to hear that this happened to you! I am glad Thunder is ok! I have an outside cat at home too, I'll keep this in mind for when our pup comes home!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Here's another thought. You have a lot of animals. Is it possible that the dog is stressed out in this group and took it out on the cat as if it was the straw that broke the camel's back? Could the cat have instigated it?


I doubt this. He is such a bouncy happy dog. He doesn't show any signs of jealousy either. I do not see any signs of stress with him at all. I think it started as over excitement, but I'm at a loss at his refusal to let go. He is generally mild mannered, loves giving kisses and cuddling. He would be what people think of when they think Golden. Peoe that know him, even his trainer are quite shocked. 

Do all goldens have a soft mouth? Probably not? I would not consider him a soft mouth, but maybe he is and that is why the cat is alive. 

Maybe he is more of a hunting dog? He is a super strong swimmer. I don't hunt so I can't help him there. 

He goes to the vet Saturday. I'm going to have to find something to channel whatever it is that's going on if it's not medical. In the summer he swims every day and he is happy. In the winter I might get him in agility or rally. I don't see him doing well in tracking, but I could be way off.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

IMO, the cat was not the instigator here. All Thunder did was jump on the back of the couch. When I got up to get him back upstairs he jumped down, enter Apollo and within seconds Brennan. This isn't the first time the cat came down. I bring Brennan upstairs with me and he is always with the cats. I trusted him completely, trusted as in past tense the key word.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm doing some research and hip dysplasia can cause aggression due to pain. He doesn't show signs of pain, but that don't mean he isn't having it. 

I'm going to request xrays and blood work. I want the thyroid checked. How do they test for epilepsy? A while back I rushed him to thd vet because it looked like he was having a stroke, but they came up with nothing. He also hit his head hard enough as a pup to cause a huge bump, hopefully no damage there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I'm just thankful the rest of the dogs stood back and gave me room to help the cat and no one else jumped anyone. I'm even more impressed how concerned they are about Thunder. They all stood by the gate to the bathroom and I let each one go in and smell him through the carrier. Midnite is the one with this love hate relationship and he sat their crying until he got his turn. When my other cat died last year it was Midnite that alerted me and brought me to the cat. I was in shock back then too. I sat there staring at the cat and Midnite was nosing him and nosing my hand like he was telling me to snap out of it.


In my experience with a pack, yes, sometimes they will all get involved. But usually there are those that are intent on doing damage and those that are going along. If you can wisk the ones that are going along out of the fray, then you can deal with the real problem. It takes a few extra precious seconds, but it can generally be handled. These are not wild animals, and I would not expect them to rip a cat limb from limb between them. 

My brother's dog killed the neighbor's kitten while I was taking care of the dog for my brother. I was a little nervous when he took her back, because he had three cats at the time. But she was fine with them. They belonged in her "pack" I guess. The neighbor kitty was a trespasser that must be dealt with. 

Critters often know when something is wrong and sometimes will kill an animal that is ill in some way. They can detect cancer, etc., long before doctors can. A dam will often ignore a puppy that has something wrong with it. There is so much we really don't know. 

I am sorry you are going through this. Hope everyone heals quickly.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You did have a bad afternoon-hope you are ok-does not sound like golden behavior-strangely my GSD has a soft mouth


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Doctor visit? Pffft, could've just gotten some duct tape and fixed yourself up just fine!  But in all seriousness, I hope you heal up quickly. Glad to hear Thunder is okay. Sounds like he did one heck of a job playing dead. Someone get that cat an Oscar!

Sounds like your golden is indeed a soft mouth. In hindsight, it's pretty impressive that he can hold onto a cat tight enough to not have it fall out, but still not harm it, while also being able to ignore your efforts to open his mouth.
My mother's lab is completely untrained, but has an instinctive pulse to just go grab random things. Doesn't chew or break them. But sure as heck does not want to let go of whatever he has. He does growl a little on occasion (when he's being stubborn and you keep 'bothering' him about letting go), but those are non aggressive growls. It's like, "hey! I found this thing of toothpaste for you to look at! No! No touch! Only look!"

I think he may have been following Apollo's lead of bothering Thunder, and thinking Thunder is now free game to try catching.
But his refusal to drop is odd. Perhaps he was so proud of finally being able to grab something?
Or...any chance he was afraid of the crazy fray going on and grabbed Thunder to protect him, and was still afraid to put him down (guessing you were shouting)?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saito said:


> Doctor visit? Pffft, could've just gotten some duct tape and fixed yourself up just fine!  But in all seriousness, I hope you heal up quickly. Glad to hear Thunder is okay. Sounds like he did one heck of a job playing dead. Someone get that cat an Oscar!
> 
> Sounds like your golden is indeed a soft mouth. In hindsight, it's pretty impressive that he can hold onto a cat tight enough to not have it fall out, but still not harm it, while also being able to ignore your efforts to open his mouth.
> My mother's lab is completely untrained, but has an instinctive pulse to just go grab random things. Doesn't chew or break them. But sure as heck does not want to let go of whatever he has. He does growl a little on occasion (when he's being stubborn and you keep 'bothering' him about letting go), but those are non aggressive growls. It's like, "hey! I found this thing of toothpaste for you to look at! No! No touch! Only look!"
> ...



I actually was very calm(not normal behavior for me). I think it was the shock at what I was seeing. I felt like I was talking someone down off a building. I had a whole conversation with Brennan as I tried prying his jaws open. He was not protecting the cat. He held on to him very similar to how they would hold a duck. I keep going back to maybe he just had very strong hunting drive? He would probably make a very good bird dog. I just don't know how to mimick that hunting to satisfy his drive for it? I can tell you that he stole a can of cat food off the counter once and he smashed it with his mouth. 

Brennan is famous for grabbing stuff. He does not eat it, he just brings it to you. I have to clear everything off everywhere if he is running around. Last week I took a nap and I woke up to everything on the counter around me--pot holders, paper towels, etc. he is very proud of himself when he does this. He doesn't stop moving either--very energetic--go go go. He doesn't jump on people but when excited he jumps next to them off of all four paws--like literally his whole body is up in the air and all four paws--jumping in place.

Thunder is looking like he is in pain--back arched. I'm waiting for vet to call me back to see if I can do anything to make him more comfortable. 

I'm actually in a lot less pain today as far as bites and scratches, but my body aches, so I can imagine how Thunder feels.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm sorry that this happened. I know it was doubly devastating .. to have your dog do this, and to have your cat be on the receiving end. I have a 6 lb Persian that I love just as much as I love my dog. I think you were a lot calmer than I would have been. 

I'm sure that your cat will be sore for a few days, but assuming that's all it is, Thunder should feel better soon.

Hopefully, you'll never have to go through something like this ever again.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh and a funny thing....the first night in order to sleep I needed to wrap my finger to limit the throbbing. The brown medical tape kept coming undone, so I used guerrilla duct tape. Yep that held it:smile2:


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sounds more like resource guarding / keep away behavior to me...
Apollo got a little rough (I assume while playing with the cat?) an earshot away from Brennan (excitement builds, maybe intensified by the barrier)... Brennan rushes to the scene, just as cat is moving/jumping down etc... targets & grabs cat, Apollo attempts to get the cat from him (value of resource increases)... mom also tries to get cat - now he's gotta keep cat away from mom and Apollo, holds on tighter. I don't recall you mentioning any growling, shaking, etc that would suggest him being aggressive or having an intent to kill.

Just some thoughts from the way I interpreted the series of events. As you know, Goldens can be very oral... and resource guarding is not uncommon in the breed. Having a soft mouth by nature, during game retrieval for example, does not eliminate their ability increase their grip in other situations.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Fodder said:


> Sounds more like resource guarding / keep away behavior to me...
> Apollo got a little rough (I assume while playing with the cat?) an earshot away from Brennan (excitement builds, maybe intensified by the barrier)... Brennan rushes to the scene, just as cat is moving/jumping down etc... targets & grabs cat, Apollo attempts to get the cat from him (value of resource increases)... mom also tries to get cat - now he's gotta keep cat away from mom and Apollo, holds on tighter. I don't recall you mentioning any growling, shaking, etc that would suggest him being aggressive or having an intent to kill.
> 
> Just some thoughts from the way I interpreted the series of events. As you know, Goldens can be very oral... and resource guarding is not uncommon in the breed. Having a soft mouth by nature, during game retrieval for example, does not eliminate their ability increase their grip in other situations.


This has crossed and stayed in the back of my mind as a very good possibility. There was no growling, I can't say if he would have shook the cat or not, because he was not given the opportunity to do so. I would prefer that he resource guard non living things if this is the case. He is like one of the only goldens at the park I take him to swim that does not resource guard(I don't think I've ever heard him growl)He will keep his ball and does not put it down, he never growls or anything. I have seen him turn it into a game of keep away, but if he does by chance drop it and another dog gets it he will give a small attempt to get it back and then move on. He doesn't fight over toys and will find another one. So while this is what it seems like, it's still behavior that isn't normal for him. 

He did go to the vet today, of course he was a perfectly calm dog. They asked him for his paw, he gave it to them and he sat there when they took blood. She felt a small tightness in the spine, but it loosened up as she continued down. His hips have great movement and she feels that is not an issue. So we wait for blood test results. Thunder is back downstairs in the carrier on a towel with a heating pad and a dose of pain meds.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Hmm, maybe a combination of things with you & Apollo towards Thunder. Saw Apollo messing with the cat, then saw you trying to get the cat.
If he gets that stoked about helping you be prepared to bake the moment you awake from napping, he must have been ecstatic about the chance to grab something you actually were trying to get.
Then...I guess he never really grabbed anything for you, has he? He must've been really revved up & had instincts taking over but he had no idea what to be doing. "I must hold this!"

My mutt is likely a good amount of pointer. I know that focus you're talking about. While still early in his training I remember at times having him 'place' on a stump and then he sees a bird in the trees on the other side of the fence. So. Freaking. Focused. Didn't matter what you said. Dogs running by. People walking by. Blowing in his face. Holding a treat in front of him. Clapping by his head. Didn't even blink. Just completely focused on the bird. Nothing existed other than the bird.
Large birds are another thing, too. Geese interest him much more than regular birds.
I've bought him quail eggs before. He gets a chicken egg everyday. But when I unsealed those quail eggs? He was struggling to contain his excitement.

I fortunately have a good location near me to let him get some of his hunting desires released, though no large wild birds are there.

I actually have an idea if you want to get some bird crazies out of him in a controlled manner.
Last weekend we were walking the dogs at a park and someone was in a field with a remote controlled helicopter toy. My boy was quite interested in it. Kept stopping to look at it. "NOT a bird, silly." That got me thinking....maybe attach something with the scent of a quail or pheasant to it and let him chase after it in an open field.
But...I don't know how well that could actually work. He's fast. Stupid fast. Usually faster than border collies & German shepherds. It usually takes a fit above standard size one to match his speed.

The only time I've seen him get out run doesn't really count. He was only 7-8 months old (so 2-3 months out from when he was hit by a car & came into our home). He's now taller, longer, and his legs are much more muscular. He's also less clumsy. lol The thing that out ran him was a purebred whippet that was under 2 years old. Kind of an unfair match up, haha. Though I don't think he could fully match that whippet still, but I think he'd be much closer to it now at 20 months old & grown. That whippet lived up to its name--Sonic.
All the borzois and greyhounds I've met are 4+ years old and potatos with no desire to run quicker than a trot. 

So, my fear is he's too fast for those toy helicopters. I would imagine for one that hits 40 mph would be an expensive dog toy.


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## MissChloe (Oct 31, 2016)

I'm sorry you experienced that. There's nothing more sobering than to see your dog act out of the ordinary like that. I know I had to re-adjust my thinking when my lab killed a mole. I'm pretty sure he thought it was a furry toy, grabbed it and ran around with it. Ultimately, I'm not sure what the mole died of. There wasn't a mark on him.



Fodder said:


> Sounds more like resource guarding / keep away behavior to me...
> Aqpollo got a little rough (I assume while playing with the cat?) an earshot away from Brennan (excitement builds, maybe intensified by the barrier)... Brennan rushes to the scene, just as cat is moving/jumping down etc... targets & grabs cat, Apollo attempts to get the cat from him (value of resource increases)... mom also tries to get cat - now he's gotta keep cat away from mom and Apollo, holds on tighter. I don't recall you mentioning any growling, shaking, etc that would suggest him being aggressive or having an intent to kill.
> 
> Just some thoughts from the way I interpreted the series of events. As you know, Goldens can be very oral... and resource guarding is not uncommon in the breed. Having a soft mouth by nature, during game retrieval for example, does not eliminate their ability increase their grip in other situations.


My lab is the friendliest doggy soul you can imagine. A small cat can wave a paw at him and he'll back away and roll onto his back. He also knows and obeys the "drop it" command EXCEPT if he thinks everyone wants what he has in his mouth. It's almost like he can sense your emotions even when our voices are calm. He gets an intense, focused look in his eyes. No growling but attention (including any attempt to offer a substitution) only makes him clamp down harder. The only way I can break that focus is to walk away and pick something else up.

Don't know if that helps but I imagine goldens are similarly mouthy (although that doesn't tell you what triggered it).


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Watch Thunder carefully. Crush injuries can be tricky, a spleen rupture or liver bleed might not show up on exam. I don't know if blood clots might be a concern as well.

Hope it all works out. It is always tricky managing multiple dogs and cats in a house situation.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Watch Thunder carefully. Crush injuries can be tricky, a spleen rupture or liver bleed might not show up on exam. I don't know if blood clots might be a concern as well.
> 
> Hope it all works out. It is always tricky managing multiple dogs and cats in a house situation.


I am watching him very carefully. He is in the downstairs bathroom so I can check on him every 15 minutes. He is drinking water which is good because I worry about organs because of medication. I put the heating pad under the towel and turn it on for 1/2 hour every couple hours. The vet recommended heat for him, at first she wanted to switch him from heat to cold in a couple days. He seems more comfortable when he is down stairs. I didn't like the look in his eyes yesterday, he looked like he was in pain. Today it's not as bad, so hopefully within a couple days I'll notice a complete difference.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This won't be fun, but check for urinary tract infection. My guess is they gave your cat antibiotics. A UTI can result, and it can cause the cat to arch its back in pain. Also failure to use the litter box could happen. I would check that.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> This won't be fun, but check for urinary tract infection. My guess is they gave your cat antibiotics. A UTI can result, and it can cause the cat to arch its back in pain. Also failure to use the litter box could happen. I would check that.


They did not give him any antiobiotics, only pain meds. He pooped the first night home and he had peed. His belly is tender, but I think the heat today helped him a lot. 

My son just got home and brought him upstairs, he came right out of the carrier and his back wasn't arched. He seems to be in better spirits. He will come back down tomorrow and get more heat treatments. I am sure they feel good on an achy body.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

llombardo said:


> IMO, the cat was not the instigator here. All Thunder did was jump on the back of the couch. When I got up to get him back upstairs he jumped down, enter Apollo and within seconds Brennan. This isn't the first time the cat came down. I bring Brennan upstairs with me and he is always with the cats. I trusted him completely, trusted as in past tense the key word.



I am relieved for you and Thunder that you both are recovering well from this incident I just wanted to comment and others have said the same, that this incident which is completely out of character for Brennan was caused by the competitve spirit between Apollo and Brennan. I think if Apollo had not been there, this wouldn't have happened. I think Apollo was the trigger and as Wolfy Dog commented it could have been the last straw for Brennan. Since you mentioned that he knocked the gate down, I would suggest a more secure gate perhaps one that is bolted to the wall.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Wow, what a crazy, terrifying run of events. I definitely wonder if Brennan was doing typical Golden grabbing behaviour to a certain degree. They get so excited to see you that they have to grab the nearest thing and show it off. Not for you to have or for you to take, but to bring to you and hold on to as they almost contain their excitement. You mentioned that he does this too, and I wonder if he was exited by the interactions between Apollo and Thunder, then when the gate gave way he decided that Thunder would be his object to hold in his excitement after getting out and being with you and Apollo. 

I'm just glad everyone is okay, and I hope that your bite wounds heal well. I've had my share of fear of an animal being dead to another (my own dog got stuck in a fence that had an Akita on the other end of it. Seeing a white dog covered in your dog's blood is petrifying), so I can imagine how you're feeling. I'm glad that Thunder is in better spirits.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So Thunder just came down and he came out of the carrier and was smelling around the bathroom. This is s good sign because he is a very NOSEY cat. His back is no longer arched. I will do the heat treatment for the rest of today. I will continue them for the rest of the week, but decrease them everyday. 

My older golden celebrates his 7th birthday tomorrow. He is the most awesome dog. He has a love for the monkeys that sound like monkeys. Just like you guys say he would run and get his monkey when he greeted you, loved to have stuff in his mouth when younger(not so much now and he knows the difference between a toy and a live animal)Brennan is slightly like that. I don't want to believe he tried killing the cat on purpose and if I think with a clear head he most likely didn't. It does not change the fact that he wouldn't release the cat, that is what concerns me the most. He will never be allowed near cats again and I'm even hesitant about small dogs. That is really difficult because people automatically think golden equals friendly. I can't take a chance. There is a slim to none chance that I will be able to get him to out something he doesn't want to out. I can and will work with this on balls and toys, but I don't see it transferring to a live animal and I don't want to EVER test it. He has had the most training of all the dogs, because he can be stubborn. Once he hit about a year everything clicked with him, but he has never lost that energy. He is the only dog that you can tell to sit and he dances with his butt in that position. Since he can't swim outside right now, I'm going to find a reasonably priced indoor pool and take him on more hikes--he loves hiking. I'm going to get the puzzles out and work his mind. He might slow down when he is 12, but until then I'm sure he will keep me very busy and on my toes.

Thunder is rather enjoying his quiet time. He really loves the heating pad.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Pretty boy - I love black cats! I hope everybody settles down now!


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Toys & balls are one thing. But very far from a live animal. I certainly wouldn't expect him to make that big of a leap for an out command.
But, work with his food. I know you raw feed, so his food is of very high value. Work with him dropping turkey necks & drumsticks. They're easier for you to grab a hold of.
Then work with the freshest of his favorite foods. This is probably the closest you can get to mimicking the level of grabbing prey. 

I like to think & attribute being able to get my boy to back off things he has cornered & drop things he already has to trying to make training as high level as I can (by taking baby steps towards it all, of course), as well as getting him really revved up. It has saved a few shrews & a young rabbit. And he has always dropped everything I told him to. He has dropped a live bird for me a few times. However, when it tried to take off, he grabbed it again. Dropped again (well...more like slammed). The grab & drop cycle ended up being the death of a bird, and I left the maimed bird as a free meal for feral cats.

Of course, dropping with a retriever breed may be more difficult. They love holding stuff.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saito said:


> Toys & balls are one thing. But very far from a live animal. I certainly wouldn't expect him to make that big of a leap for an out command.
> But, work with his food. I know you raw feed, so his food is of very high value. Work with him dropping turkey necks & drumsticks. They're easier for you to grab a hold of.
> Then work with the freshest of his favorite foods. This is probably the closest you can get to mimicking the level of grabbing prey.
> 
> ...


The funny thing with him is that he is more likely to hold a ball then a turkey neck. I can take that stuff away without problems, but I will practice more on that to enforce it. He is actually very good at drop it, of course now I know that is only when he wants to. They are having turkey necks tomorrow, so I will try this and see where we are at. I'm open to anything that can give me a read on his thought process or lack of.


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Wow, I can't even imagine how scary that must of been. I am glad to read that you and Thunder are on the mend. I agree with Mary Beth and others that the incident could have been the result of the competitive spirit between Brennan and Apollo. I hope you never have to experience anything like that again.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

kelbonc said:


> Wow, I can't even imagine how scary that must of been. I am glad to read that you and Thunder are on the mend. I agree with Mary Beth and others that the incident could have been the result of the competitive spirit between Brennan and Apollo. I hope you never have to experience anything like that again.


I just can't say enough how thankful I am that Thunder is alive, because I seriously would not have forgiven myself if he didn't make it. That I'm positive of.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Update

Brennan
All blood work came back great. I kind of thought it would, but I had to rule out medical. So now I know it's a behavior. He has a high prey drive, especially for a golden, so now we have to direct that in a good way. His ball drive is right up there with Midnites, extremely high. I have forgiven him, but I won't ever trust him around a cat or small moving animals. 

Thunder
I came home today and went to check on him. I was afraid to at first because you just never know. The most wonderful thing happened, he met me at the door and was acting like himself. He isn't hiding in the carrier or behind anything and his eyes are clear. His eyes were a huge sign as to how he was feeling and I was relieved to see the change. I think he thought I was crazy as I gave him kisses and had a whole conversation with him. I explained to him that he used up 8 lives...LOL

For now the cats are staying in the one room. They have several posts, a cat house, tree, toys, etc. I don't like it but safety first. I'm going to make an entire activity center on the walls. I'm going to get shelves and tunnels so that they can be cats. Once I figure out how to safely close off the top of the stairs so they can't come down and dogs can't go up they will have use of the whole upstairs, which is 5 rooms. It's not ideal but I do not want to ever witness or experience what I did again. 

Thank you for all the well wishes, thoughts and well just being there and not being judgemental. It means a lot and helped me look at the situation from all angles.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Update
> 
> Brennan
> All blood work came back great. I kind of thought it would, but I had to rule out medical. So now I know it's a behavior. He has a high prey drive, especially for a golden, so now we have to direct that in a good way. His ball drive is right up there with Midnites, extremely high. I have forgiven him, but I won't ever trust him around a cat or small moving animals.
> ...


I am glad Thunder and Brennan are well. I also applaud your efforts to keep everybody safe. 

However, IMO, Thunder was looking for more attention than he was getting.

Not to criticize, but do you think you could put some dogs out and crate others to give the cats some family time with you downstairs? They might be missing you.

I do this with mine to give the cats dog free family time. They love it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am glad Thunder and Brennan are well. I also applaud your efforts to keep everybody safe.
> 
> However, IMO, Thunder was looking for more attention than he was getting.
> 
> ...


I actually go upstairs with them. I finally got the TV fixed so I can just relax with them. Once he feels 100% I will get the lazer light out. He loves that thing. 

You are right, they love spending time with people. Thunder thinks he is a dog. You can can call him and he runs like a dog to you and then gives kisses on command. 

I find it very relaxing when I spend time with them. They are super cuddlers and the purring relaxes me. 

I noticed that whenever Thunder wanted something he would come down. This ranged from running low on food or water, cat nip and if the litterbox was not to his liking. The problem is that he is the leader and the other cats woukd follow his lead, so all of them weren't safe. 

Generally the dogs sleep with me at night and I'm going to start rotating that. The cats will get a few days a week of sleeping with me, they will LOVE that, the dogs not so much...LOL

At least I have 3 dogs that I'm completely comfortable with having around the cats. Misty, Tannor and Robyn. Robyn looks for them and sleeps with them, they love her. These three are completely calm with the cats and vice versa.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Good, sounds like a good few changes and everybody will be happy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Good, sounds like a good few changes and everybody will be happy.


They all definitely keep me on my toes. Change is good and sometimes needed to prevent bad things from happening due to routine. I can mix things up:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> They all definitely keep me on my toes. Change is good and sometimes needed to prevent bad things from happening due to routine. I can mix things up:smile2:


That is an interesting thought.


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