# Another Biting question



## MsAbby2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

Am I expecting too much from my 15 week female pup? We've had her since she was 8 weeks and have been working very hard on the biting/nipping issue. We hired a trainer that put her in a prong collar at 12 weeks to "train" her not to bite. Well, you all can imagine how that went. So I have since fired that trainer. My pup is getting better with me, I'm able to use "no" , redirect onto a toy, use positive reinforcement etc.. However she like a piranha with the rest of my family. We started with a new trainer last week, now we are using a clicker and treats. I just don't know how to nip this in the bud. Any thoughts would be appreciated. TIA

Abby's Mom


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

In my opinion, teaching a puppy to stop nipping involves too many corrections. I would rather live with the nipping for 6 months than constantly correct a puppy. What I did with my very high drive pup from 8 weeks was work on his heel, sit, down, stand obedience using a little food and a lot of toys, to get his mind off nipping, and crate him the rest of the time when he was in his nipping frenzy. Between training and crating, I was walking and building up his stamina. He is 9 months now, and his nipping slowed down after all his teeth came in, and now is almost all gone. He still nips but its more for attention. I let him mouth me all he wants as long as its soft. I just prefer that then showing anger and saying no 100 times a day. And when his mouthing gets beyond what I am ok with, in the crate he goes...no correction, no anger, and no redirect which I find as rewarding anyway.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Valor is a working line GSD. He regularly does foundation bite work. 

This is him interacting with my grandson. He's had 3 corrections for biting. He also gets a lot of exercises first thing in the morning.

Nagging corrections won't do it. Just redirection usually doesn't work. Set the dog up for success. Wear them out mentally and physically. Reward what you like. Biting gets a correction. There is NO WAY I would allow a dog to bite people for months.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Puppy nipping and biting people isn't about teething. It's about permitting bad manners, lack of appropriate exercise, lack or proper chew toys and/or a lack of mental stimulation. They don't outgrow it. Most people usually up exercise and training on an older pup which results in a resolution of the problem. They only think that the pup outgrew it. David gave you good advice. It's what the real pros do.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

If she really is biting, even remotely inflicting a wound or grabbing a body part, I'd correct it. But they get called landsharks or alligators for a reason. 
If it is more nipping directed at your shoe, pants leg or shirt sleeve, that is still irritating and not to be encouraged, but I see that more as trying to get your attention and redirect you to something fun, like play. 

For me, and based also on reviewing many posts on this subject, it varies with the individual dogs. We have a female who was a very, very persistent mouth-er, though she only wounded my trouser leg, not me. We re-directed until the cows came home. Then we re-directed some more. We escalated to sharper corrections if re-direction did not work. We played her favorite games, like two ball fetch, until my arm needed icing down. I would wear out before she did, and while I am 57, I daresay I can ride a bike or chop wood longer than most people of whatever age. What finally worked was, we got her on a schedule where I took her out for extended walks, heeling, two ball fetch, occasional scent work, about an hour's worth in the morning. I don't give COVID credit for much, but it did make my schedule more flexible in the mornings. And she got older, and went through a first heat. I do not think that it is an old wive's tale that they come out of the first heat a little more mature. 

Now to the "it varies" part. We have a male puppy who has never been nippy at all. Well, he sometimes takes a treat with authority, but he does not grab your ankle, your hand, your wrist, or any clothing attached to you. He just finished teething, but he just never was the "land shark" type with me, and my wife, who is home all day with him, verifies the same. He self-soothes with a favorite toy (the above mentioned gal would do so for a little while, then study how to shred the toy). He also loves to play fetch until he tires me out, so he is not just a low drive dog. But he signals his desire for that by putting a ball in my hand, or parking himself in front of me with a ball in his mouth, not by nipping. Also, and this just occurred to me, he is often out of the crate with his older pack mate, and that may help tire him out. And he may direct some of his nippiness toward her, though they do not wound each other, and if it goes beyond garden variety rough housing, we crate them. 

I'd agree it doesn't just automatically get better over time if ignored. But, when a dog finishes teething, it tends to slacken some; when they go through a first heat cycle, at least in my limited experience, that seems to help; and as stated, once they are older and you put them through more challenging and stimulating training, that helps.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Roscoe618 said:


> In my opinion, *teaching a puppy to stop nipping involves too many corrections. I would rather live with the nipping for 6 months than constantly correct a puppy. *What I did with my very high drive pup from 8 weeks was work on his heel, sit, down, stand obedience using a little food and a lot of toys, to get his mind off nipping, and crate him the rest of the time when he was in his nipping frenzy. Between training and crating, I was walking and building up his stamina. He is 9 months now, and his *nipping slowed down after all his teeth came in*, and now is *almost* all gone. *He still nips but its more for attention. I let him mouth me all he wants as long as its soft*. I just prefer that then showing anger and saying no 100 times a day. *And when his mouthing gets beyond what I am ok with, in the crate he goes*...no correction, no anger, and no redirect which I find as rewarding anyway.


I'm sorry but there's so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. Teething is a different issue and can be dealt with primarily through re-direction.

But there is zero reason/excuse to have a GSD nipping/biting after you get them for 6 months ..... or 6 weeks for that matter. Why would you ever let a dog bite you/a child/another housemate multiple multiple times?

At 9 months old, you still have an occasional biter and use his crate as punishment? He could be 80-100 pounds and you're OK with occasional biting? This is not just a comment to you, we read this hear regularly.

1/ Keep them busy/active/mind tired
2/ Appropriate correction
3/ Diversion

Next occasion, ramp up 1 and 2. This takes a few days to a few weeks MAX.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> I'm sorry but there's so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. Teething is a different issue and can be dealt with primarily through re-direction.
> 
> But there is zero reason/excuse to have a GSD nipping/biting after you get them for 6 months ..... or 6 weeks for that matter. Why would you ever let a dog bite you/a child/another housemate multiple multiple times?
> 
> ...


I sort of want to agree with this, but I also sort of don't.
I use redirection, but I also dedicate a lot of my time to engaging with pups to show them the ropes and get to know them. I dislike "correcting" before a behavior is learned.
I don't give pups much time to wander around chomping on things. I can't say I have found pups to be excessively bitey. 
But I was also kind of a crappy parent, lol. When I had little kids and puppies romping about I sort of let them sort it all out. To be clear neither child was an infant. My rules were sort of brutal though, if no one is bleeding and I don't need to take a drive to emergency then I don't need to hear about it. Obviously I was supervising but really I just let them all work it out. It seemed fine, no one ever got hurt and they all played endlessly together. If the pups were getting to rough the kids went elsewhere and the kids knew they were never to hit, kick, pull on or throw things at animals. It seemed apparent to puppies in short order that if they were chewing on humans no one would play.
The only time I had serious issues was with Shadow and my then 13 year old step daughter. Lol. For some unearthly reason the child thought it would be beneficial to leap about shrieking when Shadow got revved up. I have no clue why she reverted to stupidity on that particular pup. Of course she is also the one who had slap fights with Shadow which still rears its annoying head periodically. Lol.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I'm sorry but there's so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. Teething is a different issue and can be dealt with primarily through re-direction.
> 
> But there is zero reason/excuse to have a GSD nipping/biting after you get them for 6 months ..... or 6 weeks for that matter. Why would you ever let a dog bite you/a child/another housemate multiple multiple times?
> 
> ...


I did not say a biter! I would NEVER allow a puppy or a dog to bite me or anyone else. The last time my dog ever nipped a family member was when he was 10 weeks old (took me 2 weeks to teach him to stop). Although now at 9 months he will go after my daughter's flip flops if I don't yell stop). His crate is used for both as his place when no one is home and when I am home but can't supervise him. If and when he mouths me to get my attention to play tug, I tell him to go to his place which he does. I make stay there a minute of so then call him over to play tug. At 9 months he is still a puppy to me and I let him do puppy stuff to me. I can walk him off leash through and between strangers in town during our daily one hour walk (twice a day) and he never leaves my left leg unless I release him for a bathroom break. Between every walk, I pull out his favorite tennis ball and we play/train on a field for about 5 minutes with kids playing in the back. 

I take him pretty much everywhere with me, including my outdoor gym. I don't let strangers come over to pet him, but I have been exposing him to my lifestyle since he was 8 weeks old. I may not know how to train according to what is the correct way, but my way works for me and my family. At 9 months he still needs a lot of work, but he knows when he is behaving like I want him to and when not. If not, he goes in his crate. Period!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If pups bite, it's because you gave them access to your hands, kids or whatever they bite in. Ironically they don't do that to their canine parents ... These kind of pups, when with me, are crated, tethered or worked/played with. They are still landsharks but not at my cost.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Roscoe618 said:


> I did not say a biter! I would NEVER allow a puppy or a dog to bite me or anyone else. The last time my dog ever nipped a family member was when he was 10 weeks old (took me 2 weeks to teach him to stop). Although now at 9 months he will go after my daughter's flip flops if I don't yell stop). His crate is used for both as his place when no one is home and when I am home but can't supervise him. If and when he mouths me to get my attention to play tug, I tell him to go to his place which he does. I make stay there a minute of so then call him over to play tug. At 9 months he is still a puppy to me and I let him do puppy stuff to me. I can walk him off leash through and between strangers in town during our daily one hour walk (twice a day) and he never leaves my left leg unless I release him for a bathroom break. Between every walk, I pull out his favorite tennis ball and we play/train on a field for about 5 minutes with kids playing in the back.
> 
> I take him pretty much everywhere with me, including my outdoor gym. I don't let strangers come over to pet him, but I have been exposing him to my lifestyle since he was 8 weeks old. I may not know how to train according to what is the correct way, but my way works for me and my family. At 9 months he still needs a lot of work, but he knows when he is behaving like I want him to and when not. If not, he goes in his crate. Period!


You have a 9 month old dog that continues to nip people.
At 9 months, a nip with full sized teeth well, that's a bite, it doesn't mean he's attacking you to draw blood.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, most of what you say sounds like you have your head on straight. But personally, I'd cut out the nipping and months ago.

My 9 month old dog is over 100 pounds. A 9 month old 70-80(?) pound dog that continues to "nip" .... you keep doing you. But good luck if he gets excited and bites someone and you'll be like thousands before you who say "he never did that before, he only nips!"


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## ChickiefromTN (Jun 16, 2020)

A little of all of the above depending on the pup. I had one that was a very mouthy boy. Used all of the strategies you read about it stopped around 4 months. Even as an adult he would mouth my wrist when he needed to go out or when he got very excited he would mouth my wrist like c'mon let's go! He would take me by the wrist without even touching me with his teeth. 

The two young ones I have now were never as mouthy. Part of that is that we keep them a lot busier. I think the other component to that is they had another dog in the house whereas my boy didn't. One thing we work on is "gentle." That applies to people and the cats. As soon as we bring them home, when they are sleepy and want to lay on my lap or next to me on the couch, ill let them hold my finger or thumb in their mouth. There is a spot right behind their front teeth where its just gums. I say gentle quietly while they are just resting my finger there. If they start trying to chew or bite i get up. They learn they can't be sleepy with me on the couch if they get nippy. I didn't have any issues with these two expanding the gentle command over to their active play time or to the cats.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Good older thread with lots of good and bad opinions (mostly good).
I am SO ANGRY right now.

Watch these videos. McCann Dog Trainers has trained 80,000+ dogs. They’re common sense trainers, not TV stars pretending to be.
German Shephard pup 



And follow up with spouse



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=517611625748326


Somewhat calm black lab 




Speaking of common sense, Google Stonnie Dennis





Also understand the difference between puppy play, teething and older pup biting (5+ months even if you still mistakenly call it nipping). There’s no such thing as OK, most of the time.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I like to keep things as simple as possible. Gsd is genetically programmed to bite extra extra good. Anyone who deems that a fault has no business owning one. Good biter = good gsd, so give the dog something appropriate to bite, and* lay down the law* about_ ANY_ inappropriate biting. Inappropriate biting is completely non-negotiable. "You bite what I say, when I say, and that's it, or else." Amazon.com : puppy tug

Puppy is trying to tell you "puppies need to play tug." Think you got a problem at 15wks? Just wait 'till 15 months. Good game of tug will scratch that itch, and a few stern words should quell inappropriate behavior. Reward a pup for biting the right thing, correct a pup for biting the wrong thing. It should be easy to nip this in the bud right away. Don't let it fester.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I like to keep things as simple as possible. Gsd is genetically programmed to bite extra extra good. Anyone who deems that a fault has no business owning one. Good biter = good gsd, so give the dog something appropriate to bite, and* lay down the law* about_ ANY_ inappropriate biting. Inappropriate biting is completely non-negotiable. "You bite what I say, when I say, and that's it, or else." Amazon.com : puppy tug
> 
> Puppy is trying to tell you "puppies need to play tug." Think you got a problem at 15wks? Just wait 'till 15 months. Good game of tug will scratch that itch, and a few stern words should quell inappropriate behavior. Reward a pup for biting the right thing, correct a pup for biting the wrong thing. It should be easy to nip this in the bud right away. Don't let it fester.


Why do some get it and some don't; what is so obvious to many?
Don't want to correct firmly? Want to be their dogs friends too much? That's the problem we've created with the nation's teenagers


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

@MsAbby2020 another thought just occurred to me. Sometimes we forget that dogs don't reason with each other, and we mistakenly attempt to reason with them. "Please don't do that sweetie, it's inappropriate." 

Remember, training a puppy is not at all like raising a child. In the case of gsd a list of basic universal* one word commands* is pretty well hardwired into the breed and your puppy is likely to respond very positively if you bark them correctly. Snap it off the tongue. Sharp, succinct, firm. Like a drill sergeant.
Dog Training Commands in Several Languages Abby out! Abby sit! good girl, Abby. scratch behind the ear and get the tug toy. 



MsAbby2020 said:


> However she like a piranha with the rest of my family.


 A lot of people will read this and think to themselves '_sounds like Abbys Mom got a good one_.' This pup has drive, and you can use that drive as a foundation for training whatever you want. The bite/tug is the reward, so start by putting her in a "abby, sit!" and make her wait a few seconds for the "abby bite!" reward. Once you have that established you can build on it. "abby down! abby sit! abby down! abby bite!" Have a good tug or 3, then let her win, and praise her for doing it so "amazingly" well. 

if you give this a try, you'll likely find you have a highly trainable dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Hi


WNGD said:


> Why do some get it and some don't; what is so obvious to many?
> Don't want to correct firmly? Want to be their dogs friends too much? That's the problem we've created with the nation's teenagers


I think there is too much bad information out there. People need to start paying attention to those who have a successful track record using minimal aversives.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hi
> 
> I think there is too much bad information out there. People need to start paying attention to those who have a successful track record using minimal aversives.


I agree but you have hundreds of people on here over the years saying their "puppies" at 5 months to a year are still nipping/biting and won't listen to what works because it takes them out of their comfort zone and they'd somehow sooner be frustrated for a year than firm for a few weeks.

It's so much easier to train at 12 weeks than correct at 12 months....sorry to be harsh but it's very frustrating to hear over and over and over again.

I'll repeat: GSD are not for everyone. Not even for many who already have them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> @MsAbby2020 In the case of gsd a list of basic universal* one word commands* is pretty well hardwired into the breed and your puppy is likely to respond very positively if you bark them correctly. Snap it off the tongue. Sharp, succinct, firm. Like a drill sergeant.


I'm sorry but this is terrible advice. No dog genetically knows commands. Barking commands like a drill sergeant at a puppy that you expect to genetically know said commands is just wrong.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WNGD said:


> I agree but you have hundreds of people on here over the years saying their "puppies" at 5 months to a year are still nipping/biting and won't listen to what works because it takes them out of their comfort zone and they'd somehow sooner be frustrated for a year than firm for a few weeks.
> 
> It's so much easier to train at 12 weeks than correct at 12 months....sorry to be harsh but it's very frustrating to hear over and over and over again.
> 
> I'll repeat: GSD are not for everyone. Not even for many who already have them.


You have to wade through who is looking for help and who is looking for someone to corroborate an unwillingness to train. It's why a lot of people no longer offer advice.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I'm sorry but this is terrible advice. No dog genetically knows commands. Barking commands like a drill sergeant at a puppy that you expect to genetically know said commands is just wrong.


I think he is confusing being hardwired with imprinting. 🙃


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> In the case of gsd a list of basic universal* one word commands* is pretty well hardwired into the breed and your puppy is likely to respond very positively if you bark them correctly. Snap it off the tongue. Sharp, succinct, firm. Like a drill sergeant.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

@MsAbby2020 before you use toys for obedience rewards (particularly for unknown commands) you should teach the dog the rules of playing. When it's ok to bite the toy. When to let go. To bring the toy back. And that you control the game.

I would suggest having a trainer show you what good tug looks like, or that your invest in a training video or 2. I like the Michael Ellis tug video myself.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I'm sorry but this is terrible advice. No dog genetically knows commands. Barking commands like a drill sergeant at a puppy that you expect to genetically know said commands is just wrong.


if "_siiit?_" doesn't work, try "*SIT!*" If "_nooo biting?_" doesn't work, try "*OUT!*"

Dog is at the very bottom of the foodchain in a working/herding/guarding environment. I assure you neither the breed nor genetic obedience are products of the "sensitive approach."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I just watched the cute kid vids and wanted to weigh in from a herding/guarding perspective. With livestock, there is no licking allowed. That is elementary rule #1. NO drinking out of the stock water, no sharing feed, no face to face/head to head contact, none of that. Dog is carnivore/omnivore and livestock are strictly herbivore. Producers who allow dogs to lick newborn stock end up with 10x more livestock health issues. Border collies are notorious baby livestock lickers, because that breed didn't emerge from the same 24/7/365 independent work environment as gsd.
> 
> You bet your boots the old german wool producers did not tolerate any lamb licking whatsoever. Let alone "mouthing. My "random sample" from the ddr gsd population picked it right up before the firstborn was even dry. I say file that under the "*genetic obedience*" we're all so fond of citing around here. It's hardwired into the breed.
> 
> ...


I find your comment regarding herders odd when herdsmen tend to pride themselves on the soft-spoken commands.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

nonsense. the distance between herdsman and dog in action requires considerable volume.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think he is confusing being hardwired with imprinting. 🙃


again, imprinting is Science, mawl (_ Scientia est imprimo _: )


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> nonsense. the distance between herdsman and dog in action requires considerable volume.


I may be wrong on this but I believe that is where whistles come into play.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You have to wade through who is looking for help and who is looking for someone to corroborate an unwillingness to train. It's why a lot of people no longer offer advice.


Unfortunately, they hear other people say "it's OK my dog nips/bites at 9 months too ..... and I like it"
That old thread I posted has people with torn up arms, legs, clothes, bleeding and a child scratched under the eye, all acting like GSD "just do this" and it's normal and "they just grow out of it" if you distract them enough or cook them better steak

I see the same thread started so much I just want to copy and paste the same reply and move on. Take it or leave it. But then that's where so many ill mannered GSD comes from. Because the soft permissiveness morphs to jumping, pulling on the lead, lunging, reactiveness etc


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I just watched the cute kid vids and wanted to weigh in from a herding/guarding perspective. With livestock, there is no licking allowed. That is elementary rule #1. NO drinking out of the stock water, no sharing feed, no face to face/head to head contact, none of that. Dog is carnivore/omnivore and livestock are strictly herbivore. Producers who allow dogs to lick newborn stock end up with 10x more livestock health issues. Border collies are notorious baby livestock lickers, because that breed didn't emerge from the same 24/7/365 independent work environment as gsd.
> 
> You bet your boots the old german wool producers did not tolerate any lamb licking whatsoever. Let alone "mouthing. My "random sample" from the ddr gsd population picked it right up before the firstborn was even dry. I say file that under the "*genetic obedience*" we're all so fond of citing around here. It's hardwired into the breed.
> 
> ...


If you are referring to me, please don't passive aggressive beat around the bush and just call me out. I'd rather not play your cryptic game of innuendo and supposition.

And while you're at it, show me one dog you have trained to do anything.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WNGD said:


> Unfortunately, they hear other people say "it's OK my dog nips/bites at 9 months too ..... and I like it"
> That old thread I posted has people with torn up arms, legs, clothes, bleeding and a child scratched under the eye, all acting like GSD "just do this" and it's normal and "they just grow out of it" if you distract them enough or cook them better steak
> 
> I see the same thread started so much I just want to copy and paste the same reply and move on. Take it or leave it. But then that's where so many ill mannered GSD comes from. Because the soft permissiveness morphs to jumping, pulling on the lead, lunging, reactiveness etc


A puppy should be a joy, especially to the family children. It is very sad when you read about people posting that their kids are afraid of their puppies, avoid them, and even dislike them. They should be growing up together sharing life adventures. The puppy and the kids both deserve better. It's obvious what they are not teaching the puppy but think about what they are teaching the next generation. 😕


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A puppy should be a joy, especially to the family children. It is very sad when you read about people posting that their kids are afraid of their puppies, avoid them, and even dislike them. They should be growing up together sharing life adventures. The puppy and the kids both deserve better. It's obvious what they are not teaching the puppy but think about what they are teaching the next generation. 😕


These are the dogs that end up at board and train with me for $2500.

It's a tragedy when it honestly takes a couple hours a day during the first 16 weeks of their lives to create a wonderful companion.


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> If you are referring to me, please don't passive aggressive beat around the bush and just call me out. I'd rather not play your cryptic game of innuendo and supposition.
> 
> And while you're at it, show me one dog you have trained to do anything.


I read, on another thread, that he likes to dump the "outstanding" dogs because he is unable to handle them and thus, prefers to select/breed the VPat #4 - pet dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> These are the dogs that end up at board and train with me for $2500.
> 
> It's a tragedy when it honestly takes a couple hours a day during the first 16 weeks of their lives to create a wonderful companion.


Maybe this is what they need to hear.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> a couple hours a day during the first 16 weeks of their lives


"imprinting" 

as far as I'm concerned OP's first mistake was letting a gsd get up on the furniture (see icon)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Berno Sr. said:


> I read, on another thread, that he likes to dump the "outstanding" dogs because he is unable to handle them and thus, prefers to select/breed the VPat #4 - pet dogs.


Apparently babies and livestock fall into the same category. Apparently dogs know words. Apparently salukis are the best bite dogs. Apparently imprinting is science and that is news.


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> nonsense. the distance between herdsman and dog in action requires considerable volume.
> 
> 
> 
> again,* imprinting is** Science,* mawl (_ Scientia est imprimo _: )


Are you still planning to clicker train nursing puppies to suck on a nipple?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> "imprinting"


Yes. I'm familiar with the term.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> shepherd is calm and softspoken_ when addressing stock_, but please note his inflection on the "phooey!" correction. Of course a whistle or 2 isn't entirely unheard of, but that "_major whistle business_" you're thinking of is the product of _english herdingsport culture_.
> 
> beautiful vid though! serene!! I'm afraid our little exchange here clinches it, mawl. Berno _can't resist _investing in some local lambs on the cheap and merino genetics. Stay tuned for that.
> 
> ...


Um, Ulf is very soft spoken when directing the dog, like I said.... perhaps you meant to post a different video?

Um, the genetics of behavior is also science too.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Berno, I see your dad is back.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> shepherd is calm and softspoken_ when addressing stock_, but please note his inflection on the "phooey!" correction. Of course a whistle or 2 isn't entirely unheard of, but that "_major whistle business_" you're thinking of is the product of _english herdingsport culture_.
> 
> beautiful vid though! serene!! I'm afraid our little exchange here clinches it, mawl. Berno _can't resist _investing in some local lambs on the cheap and merino genetics. Stay tuned for that.
> 
> ...


I'm not getting defensive with you. I'm getting offensive with you. You are rude. You want to talk about my grandson like he's livestock, but in a manner that allows you to weasel out of any accusation. 

If you have something to say, just say it. Include the video. Give a time stamp. Speak in straight forward sentences that address your point.

I have thicker skin than you can imagine.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> And while you're at it, show me one dog you have trained to do anything.


I'm working on it. Little igor doesn't have as much prey as_ some pups_ but we'll get there...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm working on it. Little igor doesn't have as much prey as_ some pups_ but we'll get there


And yet he has a bunch of pirate titles, mocking the hard work that others put into those silly acronyms.


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

I see he changed his dog's name again. Last time I checked he referred to his dog as an incel lol -"igor von incel".

Perhaps, he's projecting.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Berno, I see your dad is back.


really? where?


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

You have so many, you lose track of them lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm working on it. Little igor doesn't have as much prey as_ some pups_ but we'll get there...
> 
> I never said ONE WORD about any child. Obviously the same rules* do not apply* to your situation. I'm strictly talking livestock and genetic obedience. That's it. Don't make the mistake of taking me more seriously than I take myself.












I posted a screenshot because you keep editing your posts.

I recently posted 3 videos of my puppy licking my grandson. If you are not referring to these videos, I apologise for my accusation.


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Valor is a working line GSD. He regularly does foundation bite work.
> 
> This is him interacting with my grandson.* He's had 3 corrections for biting*. He also gets a lot of exercises first thing in the morning.
> 
> *Nagging corrections won't do it. Just redirection usually doesn't work*. Set the dog up for success. Wear them out mentally and physically. Reward what you like. *Biting gets a correction*. There is NO WAY I would allow a dog to bite people for months.


Serious question David, what is your method for correcting Valor, at this age, for biting?

Nice videos btw.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Yee haw.

I think what I'd agree with here is that people think their puppies are growing out of it but we really are correcting them. I don't think we can help it - I did see something in a video posted about often we do things that permit the biting to begin with. 

Dogs definitely need to learn their place - it's just **** when they are allowed to do whatever they want and humanised.

I never realised there was so much tension here lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Berno Sr. said:


> Serious question David, what is your method for correcting Valor, at this age, for biting?
> 
> Nice videos btw.


I scruff him on the side of the neck, or grab his collar there, give a verbal correction and a bit of a shake.

If he's facing away, I would give a poke to the ribs.

A big part of it is controlling the excitement level. You need to be calm in this situation, but you can go crazy in this situation.


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## MsAbby2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

Thank you to everyone who has posted so far. I agree that I have to up my game when it comes to exercise and training. Abby is definitely smart I know she will learn quickly. But what is considered "appropriate correction " for biting? And let me clarify that it is more biting than nipping. The scratches on my hands from sharp puppy teeth are finally starting to heal. But now the rest of my family is getting the brunt of her "excitement". I know she is not being aggressive. I know she wants our attention most of the time. But my husband cant even sit on the couch after work. My kids are teenagers and they are frustrated with being used as chew toys so they just walk away. So the training falls on me and I'm ok with that. And yes, Im willing to do what it takes. I will not be "dumping" her. I'm ready for the work ahead but I want my family to enjoy our puppy too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Good older thread with lots of good and bad opinions (mostly good).
> I am SO ANGRY right now.
> 
> Watch these videos. McCann Dog Trainers has trained 80,000+ dogs. They’re common sense trainers, not TV stars pretending to be.
> ...


To the OP, did you watch these videos?


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## MsAbby2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> To the OP, did you watch these videos?


Not yet, I plan to today.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I scruff him on the side of the neck, or grab his collar there, give a verbal correction and a bit of a shake.
> 
> If he's facing away, I would give a poke to the ribs.
> 
> A big part of it is controlling the excitement level. You need to be calm in this situation, but you can go crazy in this situation.


Common sense and has worked for decades, since at least 1980 in my case. Exactly what I have been saying here for years. Distraction/re-direction is for puppies and true puppy teething.

Appropriate correction comes before that in most cases beyond very young puppies. They can learn in a few days/weeks or you can take months/never and continue making excuses. Your choice.

Correction
Persistence
Consistency.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think it comes back to relationship and how you communicate with the dog. Most dogs will take a correction just fine as long as it's clear and you then ask for an appropriate behavior and reward for it. I'm way high on a ratio of rewards vs corrections. I certainly don't want to create conflict or avoidance. It's always a balance but if you are working a lot, hence rewarding a lot, it's easy to keep the dog in a good place.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This has always worked for me. When it comes down to family members and friends I just keep the pup under control or crated when I want some time with a human. No way can he bite someone. The problem is that the physical correction has to be effective and fair at the same time, which is hard when an owner doesn't know how to do it. And most trainers who want to keep their reputation 'positive' won't teach it. 
I remember WD at about 11 weeks, running up to me with an open mouth. I was prepared and caught him with my hands on either side of his neck, held him firm and told him "HEY!!" and looked him straight in the eyes. He looked back with "I get it" and he did. Of course he has tried it again but by being consistent it never became an issue.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wonderful videos, David! Thank you for sharing! It shows how corrections don't have to be abusive, the way the all-positive crowd claims!


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## MsAbby2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

I appreciate all the feedback. I have never once made any excuses. My original post was asking if I was expecting to much from my 15 week old pup (Developmentaly). Especially after the treatment she received from her first trainer. I was a veterinary assistant for many years before the birth of my children. I have seen people destroy dogs with improper or inadequate training. Not to mention the amount of Shepherds I've seen with a bite history before the age of one. I have raised other breeds before, mostly Pointers, but this is my first GSD. I have never experienced the amount of mouthing from any other dog I've owned. I hope this forum can be a place to turn to with breed specific questions....Without judgement.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MsAbby2020 said:


> I appreciate all the feedback. I have never once made any excuses. My original post was asking if I was expecting to much from my 15 week old pup (Developmentaly). Especially after the treatment she received from her first trainer. I was a veterinary assistant for many years before the birth of my children. I have seen people destroy dogs with improper or inadequate training. Not to mention the amount of Shepherds I've seen with a bite history before the age of one. I have raised other breeds before, mostly Pointers, but this is my first GSD. I have never experienced the amount of mouthing from any other dog I've owned. I hope this forum can be a place to turn to with breed specific questions....Without judgement.


A German Shepherd should not necessarily be faulted for a bite history. Appropriate human aggression is a part of this breed's genetics and is expected behavior. So is being aloof with strangers especially when a stranger persists in touching the dog like encountered at a vet's office. If a GSD has a bite history regardless of age, it is usually due to an owner's lack of knowledge of expected breed traits and their mismanagement / training of this breed dismissing the genetics of behavior and fooling themselves into thinking that a dog is a blank slate and that it is all in how you raise and train them. Shelters and rescues, and even sometimes veterinary practices, do a disservice to dogs by promoting that myth.


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## MsAbby2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

I apologize. I know there is a huge human component to a dog with a bite history. And yes unfortunately some pups/dogs get faulted for people not knowing when to back off and give a dog (regardless of breed) its space. I know that there are still people out there that think it's ok to approach any dog they want. I'm just trying to set Abby up for success. I want to be a responsible owner. Too many people these days are not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MsAbby2020 said:


> I apologize. I know there is a huge human component to a dog with a bite history. And yes unfortunately some pups/dogs get faulted for people not knowing when to back off and give a dog (regardless of breed) its space. I know that there are still people out there that think it's ok to approach any dog they want. I'm just trying to set Abby up for success. I want to be a responsible owner. Too many people these days are not.


You missed the point. It's not about what other people do. It is about the genetics of behavior and those genetics call for a German Shepherd to have a predisposition for human aggression. Breed DOES matter.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MsAbby2020 said:


> I appreciate all the feedback. I have never once made any excuses. My original post was asking if I was expecting to much from my 15 week old pup (Developmentaly). Especially after the treatment she received from her first trainer. I was a veterinary assistant for many years before the birth of my children. I have seen people destroy dogs with improper or inadequate training. Not to mention the amount of Shepherds I've seen with a bite history before the age of one. I have raised other breeds before, mostly Pointers, but this is my first GSD. I have never experienced the amount of mouthing from any other dog I've owned. I hope this forum can be a place to turn to with breed specific questions....Without judgement.


MsAbby, I was the one that referred to excuses and it wasn't directed at you. Just the fairly constant questions re biting where so many won't take good recommendations borne of experience.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Our lives with our pup have become significantly easier with giving rules with rushing doors and such, not "inviting biting" through posture/levels and by pushing the little ******* off. Also by two extra bathroom breaks a day.

He just seems a bit less silly and agitated. All things many here have alluded to or suggested.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WNGD said:


> MsAbby, I was the one that referred to excuses and it wasn't directed at you. Just the fairly constant questions re biting where so many won't take good recommendations borne of experience.


Experience AND success!


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I scruff him on the side of the neck, or grab his collar there, give a verbal correction and a bit of a shake.
> 
> If he's facing away, I would give a poke to the ribs.
> 
> A big part of it is controlling the excitement level. You need to be calm in this situation, but you can go crazy in this situation.


Thank you very much David for sharing your method.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Berno Sr. said:


> Thank you very much David for sharing your method.


It's not my method by any means. It's a very dog centric correction. I got it from my mom back in the 70s. I'm sure something like it is in the monks of new skeet book. McCann uses similar corrections and techniques for teaching settle and appropriate play behaviors. 

Fair, calm, consistent and persistent.

That will get you there.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> It's not my method by any means. It's a very dog centric correction. I got it from my mom back in the 70s. I'm sure something like it is in the monks of new skeet book. McCann uses similar corrections and techniques for teaching settle and appropriate play behaviors.
> 
> Fair, calm, consistent and persistent.
> 
> That will get you there.


Teething pups should get simple re-direction and help via ice cubes, cold towels etc and praise for the correct actions.

Page 202 from their book "The Art Of Raising A Puppy". New Skete preaches firm scruff shake (from the top) for pup 8-12 weeks. For older pups and more serious nipping/biting, a firm "shakedown" (facing dog, double scruff, lift front feet off the floor, eye contact, several quick firm shakes, firm "no!").

Note again, this is not for teething or mild mouthing. Then re-direct to the appropriate chew item with praise.

That's fair, calm, controlled and effective. Done just a few times correctly without anger and as necessary, this will normally end your biting issues.

Or you can buy them flowers, bribe them with treats or pretend this is still cute, all dogs do this and they will grow out of it after a year or two while you continually sew up wounds and buy new clothes.... 

Biting threads, especially for pups under 5 months are very frustrating. People afraid to visit, you afraid to have visitors, owners and their kids getting injured and resenting the pup, re-homings. 

It doesn't have to be this way.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Teething pups should get simple re-direction and help via ice cubes, cold towels etc and praise for the correct actions.
> 
> Page 202 from their book "The Art Of Raising A Puppy". New Skete preaches firm scruff shake (from the top) for pup 8-12 weeks. For older pups and more serious nipping/biting, a firm "shakedown" (facing dog, double scruff, lift front feet off the floor, eye contact, several quick firm shakes, firm "no!").
> 
> ...


Thanks for pointing out the teething phase!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Thanks for pointing out the teething phase!


No problem. I think you and I teach much in the same way David so I'm glad you appreciated the McCann and Stonnie Dennis videos. Not everyone loves the Monks of New Skete guys but you have to appreciate they are raising dozens of dogs on a monastery so not everyone has to teach a 60 minute down/stay for meals. The point is, you can.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> No problem. I think you and I teach much in the same way David so I'm glad you appreciated the McCann and Stonnie Dennis videos. Not everyone loves the Monks of New Skete guys but you have to appreciate they are raising dozens of dogs on a monastery so not everyone has to teach a 60 minute down/stay for meals. The point is, you can.


Another point that Stonnie makes, and I totally believe, is that all established training methods work if employed properly. I prefer positive reinforcement, controling excitement and anxiety through exercise and countless successful reps. I don't always have time to do that though, and sometimes you need the rest of your toolbox.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Another point that Stonnie makes, and I totally believe, is that all established training methods work if employed properly. I prefer positive reinforcement, controling excitement and anxiety through exercise and countless successful reps. I don't always have time to do that though, and sometimes you need the rest of your toolbox.


And you shouldn't hate someone who doesn't have thumbs


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## Berno Sr. (Aug 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> It's not my method by any means. It's a very dog centric correction. I got it from my mom back in the 70s. I'm sure something like it is in the monks of new skeet book. McCann uses similar corrections and techniques for teaching settle and appropriate play behaviors.
> 
> Fair, calm, consistent and persistent.
> 
> That will get you there.


Thanks David. It is always nice to hear how the pros handle these situations.

Thanks for keeping it real.









IMG-8484-Copy


Image IMG-8484-Copy hosted in ImgBB




ibb.co





I like the Monk's book, but one of my pups didn't


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

MsAbby2020 said:


> Am I expecting too much from my 15 week female pup? We've had her since she was 8 weeks and have been working very hard on the biting/nipping issue. We hired a trainer that put her in a prong collar at 12 weeks to "train" her not to bite. Well, you all can imagine how that went. So I have since fired that trainer. My pup is getting better with me, I'm able to use "no" , redirect onto a toy, use positive reinforcement etc.. However she like a piranha with the rest of my family. We started with a new trainer last week, now we are using a clicker and treats. I just don't know how to nip this in the bud. Any thoughts would be appreciated. TIA
> 
> Abby's Mom
> [/QUOTE
> Don't know if you've had any success on this, but I went thru the same thing, at weeks 12-14 with my GSD. IMHO, you need to to be using compulsory training along with any positive reinforcements. Essentially, I redirected with a ball or chew toy, but when that didn't work, gently pinched a handful of fur (side of neck) and corrected her. I had to deter her for only about two days, it didn't hurt the pup and ended several weeks of frustration. Even now at over two years old, she sometimes gets excited and will mouth me at some point. All it takes is saying "no bite" and she lets go, and we continue rough housing. If you are seeing aggression at this point, however, and not just overly rough mouthing or innate snapping, you might want to get a trainer onboard.


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