# Reality of SAR



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's just not like everybody says it is. 

Training once a month, IF you get to train with the team at all. Most of the time you have no guidance whatsoever and how are you supposed to learn if nobody shows you how to do it? 
Training that doesn't even last an hour. 
No Structure
No search tactics, techniques or anywhere near what is claimed it'd be like. 

No Ruckmarches
No Physical Tests

Dogs that shouldn't do it. Dogs with weak nerves. Soft Low Drive Dogs. 
No Health Checks
Almost no Map and Compass or GPS training... (if it wasn't for the Grid Search Team you'd probably be on your own)
Last but not least: LOTS AND LOTS OF DRAMA! More Drama than I've ever witnessed before... 

To be honest, I'm very dissappointed about the reality of what is going on in quite a few SAR teams. 

There is so much talk about how much training SAR takes. How much work it is. The reality is there are just a few good teams out there. Teams that really know what they are doing. The majority, however, seems to have no clue what they are doing. They call themselves a K9 Team but in reality they are far away from being real SAR K9 Handlers. 

So if you are looking for a Team. Look closely. Don't make a hasty decision. Visit their training for a couple of months without the dogs. You'll learn about how they deal with each other, if they have a structure or simply meet up, let the dogs run for about five minutes and then leave after an hour or two. 
Find out if they have standards and stick to them or if they let anybody in. 

Be very selective and if you have a single doubt, chances are your gut is right so don't join. Save yourself the heartache, money and time. Do something else instead or become a Grid Searcher.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Wow... Recently I was put in the position of having to choose between the local Schutzhund club and trying out the local SAR group. By chance I had met a couple at our vet that were both members of LaSAR. They gave me their number and wanted me to come out. Ultimately however, I didn't even go out to meet the SAR team because I liked the SchH club so much.

Sucks it didn't work out for you...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think your guidance is well taken and, certainly your experience is real for many teams but I also think there are many more solid teams than you lead folks to believe. And I say that because even in my area we have supported each other on searches and learned from each other and I see a heck of a lot of professionalism. 

I feel my team is a good team which pushes its members - to train train train and provides training on all the required skills. Our weekend trainings are usually a minimum of 6 hours twice a month with at least weekly night training among subgroups of the team. We are all expected to train on our own as well and keep training logs.

Are there problems? I would say any team that does not have problems is lying to itself. We can all do better. What makes a team good, I think, is to always ask "what did we do right, what did we do wrong" and adjust.

We actually do require folks to train for 3 months with us before even bringing a dog and the dog only comes in if we have an opening AND if it passes the selection test which is based on the FEMA test for adults and the PAWS test for puppies (or something in between for older pups) and that includes new dogs belonging to long term members. Members have to pass all requirements for ground searchers before being operational and going on any search.

Then there are deadlines to accomplish training goals. Exceptions may be granted but only with concurrence from the officers and are based on situation. 

We do not have specific physical requirements to be on the team but we do make hard decisions based on peoples condition and have told some folks that they can only work at base. I opted to work at base but *can* work field and will if the conditions are such that I feel comfortable (for example flanking for an air scent team in moderate terrain - I won't flank for a trailing dog - too brutal). The reality is we have a lot of base work because of how we work with our sherrifs' departments so there is room for everyone willing to do what is needed even if it is not working a dog.

(Of course I do work a cadaver dog so I get to work a dog but most of those calls are separate, small, and without radios, central command, etc)

--------

Some of the folks on LaSAR are highly respected for their contribution to SAR and have helped many on other teams (Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild) though I don't know much about the team as a whole.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> --------
> 
> Some of the folks on LaSAR are highly respected for their contribution to SAR and have helped many on other teams (Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild) though I don't know much about the team as a whole.


Yeah, they seemed very well put together and professional. However, both clubs train on Saturday...

I really like my SchH club and am very glad to be a part of it (Abbie loves it too). Still, I would like to go out and meet the LaSAR group. If nothing else perhaps I could volunteer some time to be a lost person or something.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh yah, I know that there are solid teams out there. But the reality is that there are quite a few teams out there that have no clue what the heck they are doing and that is something that needs to be talked about as well and people need to know what to look for to avoid these kind of teams. 

We can't just sit there and be quiet about these kind of experiences. We don't have to name them but at least say what to look out for and to be cautious. 

I'm specifically talking about K9 teams. The Grid Searching Teams, I've seen are very well organized and trained. If some of those K9 teams were half as organized and well trained there wouldn't be the kind of dissappointment I'm feeling. I've been expecting a lot more than that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Some of the folks on LaSAR are highly respected for their contribution to SAR and have helped many on other teams (Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild) though I don't know much about the team as a whole.


Even I heard about these names before I joined the K9 team, so that means something that their names traveled as far as Germany


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K sorry to hear about your group , especially since you seem to be so enthusiastic. Here is one of my local SAR groups, working under the direction and responsible to our provincial police. Ontario Search and Rescue Volunteer Association 
As jocoyn said - there is a long period of activity without a dog and after they make you come out 2 to 3 times a week . This is not a hobby. Dogs must be certified as are the handlers and the team is required to be available and ready at any time.
There are requirements of the handler as far as their physical ability to get around -- one team would not certify because the owner needed to loose weight which slowed her down. She did , passed the physical test and was certified .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Our K9 team needs a LOT of work but we'll get there. We are in the process of getting private lessons from a very knowledgable trainer regarding directionals etc. and two of us will drive to a different team that is really really good at least once or twice a month and work with them to bring back what we can learn. We had no choice but to reach out and ask for help and sometimes that is the only thing you can do is to be honest about what is going on and ask for help to get up on your feet. However it's a couple of teams in general I came across that don't give any guidance to newbies or do not have a structure in general.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We got a lot of money thrpugh the akc car grant program. A lot of work to write and accounting for how theoney is spemt but it allowed us to bring in top notch trainers....though always ask folks to pay in part because they value it more if it costs something


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

yeah, that is what we've done too and will do in the next year too so we can continue to work with the trainer.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

So if you are looking for a Team. Look closely. Don't make a hasty decision. Visit their training for a couple of months without the dogs. You'll learn about how they deal with each other, if they have a structure or simply meet up, let the dogs run for about five minutes and then leave after an hour or two. 
Find out if they have standards and stick to them or if they let anybody in. 
*********************

Very good advice. I can tell you that there are a ton of good teams out there and just as many that need a new hobby. Teams with NO national certifications, inhouse worthless evals etc. Anybody wanting to join a team or an "org" needs to ask serious questions about training, proper certifications, expertise of "trainers" etc.
I called in a bunch of teams a couple of weeks ago here for a local search. All civilians with excellent dogs,professional handlers. Recovery made. So there ARE good folks out there but you had better do some research


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I tried for a couple of months myself and moved to Sch. I had a great, high-drive pup and they said they wanted to start them young. So twice a week, after work out to training. I spent countless hours hiding in the bushes for the established team members. They only had one or two certified dogs and maybe five established members with dogs in training. So newcomers were just treated like crap. If my dogs got out of a car for five minutes during the several hours of training, we were lucky. Beyond sitting in the bushes and entertaining mosquitoes, I learned nothing, period. Sometimes the old-timers would just hand out with their dogs and nobody bothered to tell us what we were doing, we were just the lower races.

I went to Sch training and it was a difference like night and day. The sch group was enthusiastic loved dogs, loved training and teaching us. I learned a ton. It was an easy choice.

I was very disappointed in sar, the people and the way they treated the dogs. Also there was the incredible level of arrogance and superiority. I heard of several people who have tried and had the same experience as I. 

I think one thing newcomers should assess is whether they stand a chance of becoming active member of whether the established team only needs subjects to hide.


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## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

At the risk of being labeled arrogant, I'll present a different perspective on your account of your experience with SAR. I expect the reality is somewhere between these two extremes.

Many teams do not allow newcomers to bring their dog to training at all in the first few months, for good reason. For my team it is 5 months. You were lucky that you were given the opportunity to bring your dog to training at all in the first two months, even if it was for just a five minutes at a time. It does not sound like you were grateful for that training opportunity.

I learned a tremendous amount by hiding for other dog teams. Pay attention to the wind, predict where the dog might pick up your scent, and watch their behavior as they close in on you. Observing that is the best way I know of to learn about scent. Of course you should have also been given the opportunity to observe by following experienced dog teams so you could learn from that perspective as well. Your statement that you learned nothing while hiding for dogs (period) tells me that you were not open to learning anything.

I can't make any judgements about the particular SAR group that you tried out with. If they did indeed treat you like crap then I'm sorry to hear that. In general I will suggest that if you start out in SAR with a "what's in it for me" attitude then you will be disappointed and will not get very far. But if you go in with a "how can I best help this team" attitude then you will be on the path to eventually certifying your own dog and helping to find missing people.



RebelGSD said:


> If my dogs got out of a car for five minutes during the several hours of training, we were lucky. Beyond sitting in the bushes and entertaining mosquitoes, I learned nothing, period.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Jonathan, I think that was an excellent post and see it from both sides...and realize RebelGSD may truly have had an awful experience...as there are good and bad teams. 

I think many teams have gone through the phase of bending over backwards for new folks just to have them fail to make it to a search because of the weather, or a holiday, etc. and have tightened up because if someone is really into it because they want to do search and rescue they will do whatever it takes. 

Most teams are not particularly welcoming with open arms because of the large number of membership inquiries (particularly after some disaster) by folks who really just want a dog sport. (Dog sport is fine but it is not SAR)

Actually I love hiding for dogs because if you position yourself properly you can learn an awful lot about how search dogs work by watching from a distance and after a few hours of quiet in the woods you get to see some neat wildlife. I will admit I do NOT like being a victim for night problems though - a few hours alone at night in the woods is still unsettling to me...all those little eyes creep me out...and once I saw a big black shadow that I am certain was a bear because the dogs went wonky in the same area I saw the shadow. 

We require a three month wait before someone can bring a dog. It is not arrogance. Training a dog for this (and the handler which is more work) is a TREMENDOUS team effort. Time spent on a team that will not ultimately be operational is time taken from a team that is or should be.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, let's just say that up here, in general, quite a few teams are a mess. It's not a secret at all that in this area, there are major, major issues. Some on here have heard about it and not from me. It came from a very well respected man in the SAR Community who is trying to help to fix the problem. It's going to be a long road. That is for sure but I'm hoping that we are on the right path. 

In December I'll be with this team for a year and I definitely did a lot of soul searching and continue to do soul searching. The problem is that you can only take so much and at some point you really have to ask yourself if it's worth it. I love Search and Rescue but I don't have to be a K9 Handler. There are other Jobs within SAR, such as Grid Searching. 

I can help find missing people that way. I can be a flanker... there are so many jobs, that if you have your heart in SAR you'll be able to help find missing people regardless of being a K9 handler or not. 

I know I've got some good dogs but I'd rather put my money into a trainer where I get my moneys worth out of it instead of training three or four years for something and never get anywhere at all. For that, my dogs are just too valuable. I'd rather title my dogs in Schutzhund then. Heck, if I had sticked with Schutzhund instead, she'd have her show result, BH, AD and probably be titled in Schutzhund 1 by now....or pretty darn close to being titled. Instead I'm stuck at a point and don't know how to go from here because I really do not want to regress. I'm waiting for our new trainer to set up a schedule and it looks like it's not going to be anywhere before Christmas. Indra has been worked 1 within the past month and it was a disaster and I don't dare to do anything without anyone who really knows what he's doing. 
So close to two months, and NO SAR TRAINING whatsoever... two months is a lot of time. A lot of things can be accomplished within two months... 

It's not wrong wanting to get something out of it. If you want to do K9 you've got to do it right or not at all!
She's getting older and older and older, all the while all her brothers and sisters are already titled in either Schutzhund or the RH itself... I don't want her to end up like the other dogs from the team that are five and six years old and had to be washed... so I'd rather switch while she's two years old instead of waiting too long until it's too late.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think that a lot of time is wasted by harassing people away after 5-6 months. As to my learning, my entire life has been devoted to it. And I encountered many teachers on the path, good ones and bad ones. And these sar teachers were bad. Anyway, reading more about it, sar is not for me. Sucking up to people for years for "maybe" one day being "allowed" to train a dog - I am sorry, I lack the masochism for that. I prefer to devote my energy and enthusiasm to a group that is friendly and welcoming. I think it is great that there are people who make it, but statements here confirm that this is an activity I prefer to stay away from. 
I preferred the positive attitude and reception and the treatment of the dogs in sch.
So for those who want to start, they need to know that they may or may not ever earn the right to train a dog, that they may or may not end up being called to a search. And they may never belong to the in crowd. So if people chose to spend years of time trying to fit in and "earn" some status, then go for it. I know of several enthusiastic people who were successfully harassed away after many months of trying. In hindsight, I am grateful that it happened the way it happened as leaving sar led me to something positive and rewarding.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs K and RebelGSD - Sorry you had such bad experiences.
The whole SAR thing is very much one of the more stressful volunteer things and dealing with new folks is often very difficult.

I have seen the evolution of our team and our response to managing new folks while giving existing folks who have proven their dedication the attention they need is to simply close the doors to new dog handlers. I can guarantee that when slots open those whodecided to join anyway are already operational ground support staff have first priority at bringing in a new dog.

I can also say, that as a cadaver dog handler and an officer, my training MY dog often is at the end of the pile. We usually just train the cadaver dogs separately because we are too busy either hiding for or flanking for teams (dog+handler) working on becoming operational. *When folks are looking at teams perhaps talking with some of the newer members about how they get integrated and made operatoinal would be another good thing to do.*

Unfortunately, the typical inquiry is from someone who is looking for something to do with a dog they already have or a dog they purchased to do SAR and gets very frustated when they realize we are not going to stop the works to help train their dog for them no matter how good their dog is because we know a great member/dedicated member will make it happen and won't take it personal if we wash out their dog (as is every single officer on the team has washed out at least one of their own dogs over the years)

Just trying to give a perspective from the other side.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ROFL... not going to stop the works to help train a new dog? If we were working I could understand, but we are not! There is whether a structure nor is there any form or kind of plan of what we are doing. 

We meet, then it's decided who is going out as a helper, the helper is going out, not even hidden for two minutes and then the dogs are sent. Then the helper hides in a different spot for the other dogs. When I still lived in the old house I drove two hours for an hour training and that was it. IF we even worked an hour. Most of the time it was half an hour, half an hour talk about random stuff. Now I'm driving an hour... still not acceptable. If it was like Debbie Zappia training where you really get something out of it, it'd be a difference. 

There is no plan whatsoever about any kind or form of search problem. There is absolutely no guidance for any new handler, there is no explaining, no theory, no search tactics. 

As for washing dogs out, pretty much every dog except for mine would have to be washed. My dogs are the only dogs that come with a suitable drive, rock solid nerves, the health and propper socialization. 


As for new members. I wished a certain person would have joined our team instead of quitting completely. Mainly because that person has talent and has the same view on training as my teammate and I. It would have given us tremendous backup to have three handlers of the same caliber but I can understand why she did not. I wouldn't want my to join my team either if I knew what I know now.

I do not think that your team is anywhere comparable with our team, Nancy. 
Open slots? Planned through training, structure, knowing what you are doing. 
You can't compare that to a team that is nothing but chaos, has no plan whatsoever and that isn't actually working and hasn't had any certified dog in five years, despite the training.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sorry you have had so many issues with your team. Honestly, I would take my concerns up the line as your state dos have a SAR council so it does not stop with your teams BOD.

One comment before I pass because I assume when you say "grid searcher" you mean "ground searcher" - i.e. for anyone else - grid searching should be the very last resort in a search effort. Something that is done after containment, after hasty searches, after mantrackers, after canine searchers. Just an informational thing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

We don't have dogs. We have to call them in from other teams and from what I've experienced with the searches I've been to, the dogs are the last ones to go out.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So the issues aside, the positive side note is your team is not deploying dogs when they should not. When we got started, we also called in other teams' dogs. Still do on an expanded search and they call us but we can handle most of them anymore. Took years to get there and a lot of mistakes on the way.

Do the police up there have good trailing dogs? That is our very first action (even though LE here has good dogs, if someone has been gone all day, we usually do more training for old trails in contaminated areas than they do because there focus is, rightfully, criminals and those are a different sort of training scenario.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, I'm hoping that we will get back on track as well. It's just SO frustrating when you don't have the same commitment. To really get back on our feet we'd have to meet up twice a week and really work the dogs in depth. But that isn't happening. Most of the time not even once a week and if we do meet, we don't do the training we should be doing. So hopefully things will change now that we are working with a different team and pay a personal trainer. 

I've seen one trailing dog from the police. Only seen him once. He's good though. Really good. He actually found the subject on that one search. 

As for going out with uncertified dogs, that wouldn't go well with the Federation.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Unfortunately, the typical inquiry is from someone who is looking for something to do with a dog they already have or a dog they purchased to do SAR and gets very frustated when they realize we are not going to stop the works to help train their dog for them no matter how good their dog is because we know a great member/dedicated member will make it happen and won't take it personal if we wash out their dog (as is every single officer on the team has washed out at least one of their own dogs over the years)
********************************

Exactly. What I also see is that there is no oversight with civlilians. NO requirement for a national reputable certification. I know of teams who do the in house good old boy cert and actually deploy with substandard dogs. And teams that will not say no to someone with Fluffy. THen I know very professional teams. Folks need to ask questions before they join. Again, many issues with this.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It sounds like your very frustrated with your 'team'..My feeling is, as with any club/organization, is, you work on changing it, or you find another that is suitable to your wants,needs, desire. If you (general you) can't, because of whatever reasons, then maybe its time to move in another direction.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Adopting national certifications has been an evolutionary process with us and part of the challenge has been in the travel commitment required to get to these tests or setting up enough tests with an outide evaluator to bring them in.

Our state was late in the game of K9 SAR and much of our work has been buidling and refining. 

All of our cadaver dogs have tested under NAPWDA for several years (and also IPWDA) and our trailing dogs are certed there as well. Working towards it with the airscent dogs but since we work them with a scent article (and getting a good one has not been an issue on the years I have been on the team) most tests are not scent discriminatory so we have to train for searching without an article - more than we have done. 

I still like keeping our in house testing as part of the training progression - the dogs who meet the in house test have had no trouble passing the NAPWDA certs, typically on the first try.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Adopting national certifications has been an evolutionary process with us and part of the challenge has been in the travel commitment required to get to these tests or setting up enough tests with an outide evaluator to bring them in.
> 
> Our state was late in the game of K9 SAR and much of our work has been buidling and refining.
> 
> ...


Question, if my team doesn't certify to these standards can I still go out and certify under these standards as an individual simply because I want the quality?
I guess it takes just a single person to initiate a change... I would still have to certify under the Federation because if you are a member of the Federation you must certify under them, however nobody says you can't go out and put more certifications on top of it, right?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K here are some sites which have good information . In Canada you can not be an independant operator , you must be a member of a team after a long period working without a dog. That trial period is a winnow that sifts the wheat from the chaff only leaving dedicated people behind . You experience the team by acting as the lost person, you learn grid work , you walk along with the trainer for commentary from the trainer or team members in seeing dogs in training and seeing the certified team members work their dogs. In Canada the SAR teams are certified and responsible to a police dept , mostly rcmp or provincial agency which uses the rcmp requirements as a template. These are interesting K9 Search and Rescue, Newfoundland & Labrador

Office of the Fire Commissioner | Manitoba Emergency Services College | Canine Training

CR Dogs - Search & Rescue

this written by a former Metro Toronto PDK9 handler and friend who has bought , trained and placed a few dogs of mine - Training the SAR Dog Properly: Lives Are at Stake -- Grima and Grant with my "Tell" were the first Toronto handlers. The article is 11 years old-- Ontario thanks has used rcmp standards for the last 10 years .

when you take a dog in to SAR you have to be prepared to be told , sorry , not this dog . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Adopting national certifications has been an evolutionary process with us and part of the challenge has been in the travel commitment required to get to these tests or setting up enough tests with an outide evaluator to bring them in.
> 
> I still like keeping our in house testing as part of the training progression - the dogs who meet the in house test have had no trouble passing the NAPWDA certs, typically on the first try.


 
If folks cannot afford to obtain proper certifications. Do something else. I hear that a lot but those same teams jump on a callout and somehow find the funds.... priorities. The problem with any in house is that it does not have the credibility of an objective third party cert. A lot of in house are not like yours. They do inhouse because the dogs cannot pass an outside cert. very common.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The pathway to resolution depends on your state and team structure. Each state is unique.

To Renee's point about lack of enforced national civilian standards. The same could be said for police dogs. It is a problem that should be fixed. To Mrs K's point. It has taken us a few years to evolve to that view and it was based on a lot of interactions with a lot of other teams....

But I will say a team that tests in the flatlands should not be considered as a "go" in the mountains if they have not trained and demonstrated capability there. THere is still an element of of training for the enviornment they work in. We had a fellow join our team with a dog from California. THe dog did not have a clue what to do with streams (we are covered up with streams and creeks and rivers)


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

To Renee's point about lack of enforced national civilian standards. The same could be said for police dogs. It 
*****************************

Not if the agency is informed. All police officers have many yearly requirements madated by the state. Police k9s certify yearly. Any agency that does not require that has not read case law or been slammed in court yet... It IS the norm


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Like said, the overall SAR team itself is awesome and I love it. I am mainly frustrated with the K9 training. I probably shouldn't have said what I said on here but I've been very upfront about it. 
Our Ground Search Team is excellent which is why I wouldn't have any kind of issue to stick to Ground/Grid Searching. At least you don't have to deal with the same drama between the teams as you have in the K9 world. 



jocoyn said:


> The pathway to resolution depends on your state and team structure. Each state is unique.
> 
> To Renee's point about lack of enforced national civilian standards. The same could be said for police dogs. It is a problem that should be fixed. To Mrs K's point. It has taken us a few years to evolve to that view and it was based on a lot of interactions with a lot of other teams....
> 
> But I will say a team that tests in the flatlands should not be considered as a "go" in the mountains if they have not trained and demonstrated capability there. THere is still an element of of training for the enviornment they work in. We had a fellow join our team with a dog from California. THe dog did not have a clue what to do with streams (we are covered up with streams and creeks and rivers)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> To Renee's point about lack of enforced national civilian standards. The same could be said for police dogs. It
> *****************************
> 
> Not if the agency is informed. All police officers have many yearly requirements madated by the state. Police k9s certify yearly. Any agency that does not require that has not read case law or been slammed in court yet... It IS the norm


Oh yes, just pointing out that there is no standardized national police k9 cert process; several different organizations do have standardized tests - I realize that - perhaps some jurisdictions mandate which national cert they use. Many departements do it 'in house', etc ..Is that incorrect? 

.... wasn't one of the arguments in the Anthony case the lack of maintaining a current national cert? He had in house testing. He had a "cert" from prior years but not one that is recognized (Rebmann)...I could be wrong on that one.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is one thing I don't understand either. I guess that is why I'd almost prefer to do IRO testing. Many frown upon it because it is also a sport but it's worldwide recognized and those dogs are pretty darn good. Especially those that are actually certifying to operational and international operational standard. 

So if one organization can come up with a worldwide standard how is it that one country can't even implement a national standard for everybody?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess the focus of the IRO really is more disaster and most SAR in the country is wilderness.....it is, to me, a round peg in a square hole regarldless of how good it may be.....

I guess that was my point about the police standards - if there is no single police standard how can we expect one single SAR standard. I believe had the NASAR BOD not screwed up and missappropriated the K9 donation funds after 2001 they would have been the national standard...they kind of blew it and now NASAR is a shadow of what it once was.

The country tried pointing to select national standards for NIMs curricula but I gather the whole NIMs thing is just kind of not where we expected it to be.

----------------------------

And please don't take it as dissing the IRO system; I am open minded on that and it has certainly been discussed for awhile but most teams I know have organized their K9 resources around tne NIMS ESF-9 Classifications and the IRO testing does not really address any of them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So it's pretty much all still a big learning process for the entire country?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> So it's pretty much all still a big learning process for the entire country?


I am not sure what you mean there.

These are the bins most testing targets. These are the bins to which we categorize our resources
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/508-8_search_and_rescue_resources.pdf


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And this was the draft curricula
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> Oh yes, just pointing out that there is no standardized national police k9 cert process; several different organizations do have standardized tests - I realize that - perhaps some jurisdictions mandate which national cert they use. Many departements do it 'in house', etc ..Is that incorrect?
> 
> .... wasn't one of the arguments in the Anthony case the lack of maintaining a current national cert? He had in house testing. He had a "cert" from prior years but not one that is recognized (Rebmann)...I could be wrong on that one.


 
some departments do. When I was k9 training director at the SO,I did but I also demanded an outside cert. The point is that the HRD dogs are just recently being seen in court. This is going to eventually demand a reputable outside cert. Civilian groups have NO oversight whatsoever. Police departments cert or no demand proficiency and some kind of success at some point. Some departments have very competent in house trainers . I just prefer an outside,unbiased opinion
Florida has FDLE . The problem was that the dog had lapsed his cert for over a year. Rebman does not call it a certification. He issues a certificate of completion. Big difference

A certification does not reflect total proficiency either. However, it is something when one winds up on a witness stand.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

We are an ARDA unit, Homepage of the American Rescue Dog Association, standards are listed on the website. Some handlers also certify under NASAR.


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

I have similar issues with my SAR group. We have a core group of people that are certified through our state and we train on a regular basis (I'm just a flanker now, waiting a year or so to get a dog). The issue is it that our K9 group isn't completely autonomous from our county's ground SAR so our county coordinator who calls people out doesn't understand who's certified and who isn't. We have one team who got their TTT level one and she is being called out as a state certified team. 

We are working now to write our own policy dictating training requirements and certification requirements. 

On a side note our county does have fitness requirements based off of USFS fire fighter tests. 2 miles in 30 minutes with a 25lb pack.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

I'm sort of sad about Mrs. K's experience and a couple of other's experience. The group I have been training with is great. Yes, it is an ad hoc group but they all certify their dogs through NASAR and it's not in-house testing. They are a great group. BTW, I love being the "victim". It can get boring but I take my phone and Kindel. ;-) I love how the different dogs work. I also love giving the dogs a challenge and constantly look for the wind, cypress and other reasons to hide or not. I think I'm learning a lot by being the "victim." I guess it's how you look at it and the group your involved in. I haven't posted this before but here is the group that I think is incredible. They deserve kudos for their professionalism and their work. Welcome


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

You should read their website "About". Here. About SAR


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is very nice to see more SAR team members posting on the forum! 
I know there are other non breed specific SAR forums and working dog forums but it is especially nice to see the pointy eared crowd!


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> It is very nice to see more SAR team members posting on the forum!
> I know there are other non breed specific SAR forums and working dog forums but it is especially nice to see the pointy eared crowd!


LOL Speaking of the "Pointy eared crowd"...we do have non pointy ear dogs. One handler uses a terrier. Sheesh, I can't remember the name of his dogs. They are the largest terrier. Weird dogs. Anyway, yes, we are a "pointy ear" prejudice group. :laugh:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Haha - No we have several non pointy eared dogs on our team too.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

Airdales!!! That's what they are and they are the team's cadaver dogs. They are really weird looking. Oh well. I guess not all dogs can be pointy eared perfection.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ohhhhh---oklahoma----airedales----Jim Delbridge?


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> ohhhhh---oklahoma----airedales----Jim Delbridge?



Yep.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

jocoyn, I pm'd you....


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

It always makes me sad to hear of poorly run SAR groups and makes me thankful for the groups I have been a member of. I have only had well constructed and run experiences nothing of the likes you have described.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JulieBays said:


> You should read their website "About". Here. About SAR


I'm jealous. 


Just to be clear. The SAR Team itself is awesome. It's the K9 part I'm frustrated with because that needs a heck of a lot more work than what we do but we'd never get that kind of commitment because life happens. It's hard enough to find one day per week where the whole team can make it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Have you looked into joining any of the units you wind up calling in because you dont have ops dogs. It seems to me the issue is NOT the standards; NYS has some pretty robust standards for evaluating dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Have you looked into joining any of the units you wind up calling in because you dont have ops dogs. It seems to me the issue is NOT the standards; NYS has some pretty robust standards for evaluating dogs.


It's definitely not the Standard, that is true. 

I thought about it but at the same time I'd let my best friend hang. She is trying to get the team back on track and if I leave, she's on her own. That is why we are trying to travel once or twice per month to that team (the one I really really like) and work with them to bring back what we learn. 

If we can get the good teams to help us, I really think we can make it back on track. It's going to be a lot of work and frustration though. Right now we've got to work with what we have and make the best of it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It took us several years to have operational dogs and us calling in dogs from other teams. A lot of going to outside trainers, getting grants for training, etc. Now we get called in by other teams (we all call each other).....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I was thinking about switching from air scent to Cadaver. Mainly because I don't have the helpers but I have sources in my freezer that have not been used yet and if I do cadaver I can work on a daily basis and don't have to rely on anyone else to show up and wouldn't be as frustrated because it would depend on me whether or not the dog is getting worked and not depend on others.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You do have to have helpers to set out your hides after you get down the basics of imprinting and the trained indication. The majority of your training problems need to be completely unknown to you. And you need access to locations where you can set these materials out for days, sometimes weeks or more (I just picked up a 1.5 year old bone field) . A 30 minute problem with decomp is a piece of cake. The real world is possibly bones with some material on them, shallow graves, or much more subtle scent or a huge amount of scent that is overwhelming to the dog. You need to be able to train full spectrum.

Make sure you have blood borne pathogens and hazmat documented training for you and any helpers.

You may want to go to THIS seminar - they are doing one for beginner level dogs (I talked with Lisa about taking Beau and she thinks, at his young age, it would probably be too overwhelming for him). It would be a good total immersion introduction. The conference is $350 and the rooms about $60 per night. For what you get it is very good and that is a good time of year. I can assure you that it will fill up almost immediately. The last one filled in 9 minutes. Lisa Higgins and Brad Dennis are top notch. Paul is also very good. I am not sure if Orval Banks will be there or not. He is a bit ol school about things but is an icon in the SAR community.

http://www.wcu.edu/28710.asp


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I have blood borne pathogens. 

would one person be enough to hide the source?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, but they will be handling it so they should have it as well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So that would make much more sense than only having one or two people for air scent. If we do Cadaver instead, I can hide the source for her and she can hide it for me. 

She's got it too


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

The main thing for human remains detection is the access to proper training aids. That is what most folks have problems with.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

We'd actually have access. Nala was imprinted today, we are working on the basics and the indication from now on.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

How did you imprint?


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

Our group is lucky enough to have old bones along with our other materials. The bones is what took us the longest to get. They're nice because most of our searches in our county are for bones.....sometimes it makes me wish that they would call us out when they're still alive


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

> How did you imprint?


I know you weren't asking me however I thought I would chime in. I've seen dogs imprinted a few times. Keep in mind I wasn't the one running it or the dog I was just observing. What we have done is simply expose the dogs to strong smelling cadaver material and reward when they show interest. Is this the normal way to imprint or is there a different way that other people use?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am just going to sit back and listen for awhile. But we pretty much use the US Customs method...with scented throws/toys to imprint the odor--and that is for a few weeks then goes through a progression cluminating with the indication.

I will say I have maintained (certified and recertified annually) a Nationally Certified dog since 2008 which is long enough for me to know there are some very poorly trained cadaver dogs out there and it is a discipline in which it takes a lot of time to develop proficiencey as well as a lot of time spent training with different training aids (size, type, age), areas (land, buildings, vehicles, water), and environments (urban, rural, suburban), etc..........you have to train for what you do. 

Dont do a shallow grave unless you have trained on a lot of honest to God-graves. Don't look for a body unless you have trained on whole bodies or very large sources (and mixed training aids is not the same) etc etc. It is not long enough to call myself an "expert" in the field but I do feel confident and competent because I know our abilities and limitations.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I am just going to sit back and listen for awhile. But we pretty much use the US Customs method...with scented throws/toys to imprint the odor--and that is for a few weeks then goes through a progression cluminating with the indication.


Yes, this is what we've started. Pretty much the Cadaver Ball. Of course it's going to take weeks to get the basics down.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yeah...I am still working on what to do with Beau--other than I know he loves the odor and wants to run off with my hides -- I am mainly just thinking I will wait to do an serious training until he is older. (He is 18 weeks) but we throw and hunt regular balls for about 45 minutes a day (he would do it all day I think)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Haha, he sounds like a bundle of energy. 

Sounds like he's going through e "Neener" phase?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

FYI that is not the US Customs way, it is the way of police officers for 30yrs. 

The reason I ask Mrs.K. is that one does not rush this. The dog imprints using a ball/kong/retrieving/dummy whatever that is scented in strong decomp. One retrieves with this and quickly sets up blind retrieves. This is when the search pattern is taught. Along with this, alert drills are set up regardless of what final trained response is going to be used. This is NOT the phase to rush because everything is built on this foundation work. The solid search pattern and solid final trained response should be in place before moving on however, as soon as a final trained response is in place the scented reward is removed and only target odor set out.
Also be aware that acces to ALL examples of human remains are necessary. placenta and blood do not cut it. Thresholds must be adjusted on the dog in order for him to be operational under any circumstances. Realistic amounts must be available ultimately
this is why I advise folks that live find is easier as one can find folks willing to hide. Access to proper training aids for HR work is tough


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jstra84 said:


> I know you weren't asking me however I thought I would chime in. I've seen dogs imprinted a few times. Keep in mind I wasn't the one running it or the dog I was just observing. What we have done is simply expose the dogs to strong smelling cadaver material and reward when they show interest. Is this the normal way to imprint or is there a different way that other people use?


 
that is more of a conditioned response method which is not what I reccomend. that is why we seek dogs with retrieve drive


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've seen both methods used by the same person. So is there any right or wrong with both methods? Is there anything you shouldn't do, no matter what?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> FYI that is not the US Customs way, it is the way of police officers for 30yrs.
> 
> The reason I ask Mrs.K. is that one does not rush this. The dog imprints using a ball/kong/retrieving/dummy whatever that is scented in strong decomp. One retrieves with this and quickly sets up blind retrieves. This is when the search pattern is taught. Along with this, alert drills are set up regardless of what final trained response is going to be used. This is NOT the phase to rush because everything is built on this foundation work. The solid search pattern and solid final trained response should be in place before moving on however, as soon as a final trained response is in place the scented reward is removed and only target odor set out.
> Also be aware that acces to ALL examples of human remains are necessary. placenta and blood do not cut it. Thresholds must be adjusted on the dog in order for him to be operational under any circumstances. Realistic amounts must be available ultimately
> this is why I advise folks that live find is easier as one can find folks willing to hide. Access to proper training aids for HR work is tough


I was told what we do is Customs but I would imagine you know a ton about Customs, I always thought they used food dogs.........

But, yes, what you describe is exactly how we were taught by LE

The deal about access to the training aids in size and type and age variation - when I started, others told me- no not necessary but I absolutely believe it now  --

My own impression of the old bucket / blocks method is dogs who are too handler dependant on taking them to source. I don't know if it an issue with the method or with the handlers and dogs I saw. I want a dog where my part of the job is just telling them where I want them to go search and they take it from there.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

ATF uses food depravation. US Customs are tug dogs
Well,that block stuff....... Why not just set up alert drills in a natural working environment? Accomplishes the same thing. I will however,set up stuff like that to repair a lousy alert. I call them speed drills. No purpose other than to get that alert fast and committed. 

I even train narc and bomb dogs in my pasture. Dog learns to work that scent cone to source. Building is a piece of cake after that


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> I've seen both methods used by the same person. So is there any right or wrong with both methods? Is there anything you shouldn't do, no matter what?


 
which methods are you referring to?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The Cadaver Ball and the "Conditioning" on the Scent by rewarding the dog as soon as he shows interest.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We do speed drills too. I really like training on a ball wall though for really keeping the handler out of the picture and primary reward.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K. the problem with that method is that timing is everything and false alerts occur frequently unless the trainer has a LOT of experience.
Are you training a passive or aggressive alert? I reccomend the aggressive alert because no offense, but I have seen few folks in 25 years good enough to keep it solid and not wind up with a dog false alerting, alerting a long way from source,not looking at the handler etc etc. passive alert has other problems in HRD work as well

does your dog have high retrieve drive?


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

How do you imprint the toys with the HRD?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> Mrs.K. the problem with that method is that timing is everything and false alerts occur frequently unless the trainer has a LOT of experience.
> Are you training a passive or aggressive alert? I reccomend the aggressive alert because no offense, but I have seen few folks in 25 years good enough to keep it solid and not wind up with a dog false alerting, alerting a long way from source,not looking at the handler etc etc. passive alert has other problems in HRD work as well
> 
> does your dog have high retrieve drive?


She retrieves pretty much anything including any kind of metal. 

With alerts, are you talking about the indication? If so, I want the bark. No sit, down or jump.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

First. We imprint using a ball/kong/retrieving dummy by placing it with the target odor that is the strongest. We then do retrieve drills with the reward in tall grass,rubble whatever. Then the blind retrieves. Reward is placed into tall grass,rubble whatever where the dog must use its nose to find it.The search command is given and the dog must search for it. Now is the time to train the desired final trained response and directionals. No more sight retrieving. We try to maintain the illusion that reward IS source. When the reward is removed, we try to deliver the reward in a somewhat clandestine manner. NEVER throw the reward from somewhere to source. the dog will wind up looking at the handler. The dog must learn from the git go that reward comes from source ONLY and commitment to source is the ONLY way the reward appears
Mrs.K, indication is an improper term. We used alert for 30 years. The courts now are going toward the use of final trained response and the alert term is what we used to call the change of behavior indicating that the dog is working odor.
Also, a bark only is NOT good enough. A nightmare in court and in various environments. The dog needs to scratch for aggressive or sit for passive. He can bark also. A bark is pretty useless for HRD when it comes to making the actual recovery because it is difficult to exhibit directly at source especially in some environments. The reason I do not care for passive is that in rubble, rough terrain etc the dog may not be able to sit or down and most of the time will move away until it is comfortable to do so which means he is NOT at source. That matters if a backhoe is coming. With a scratch alert the dog will at least be able to slap at source.
If the dogs we used recently were bark only we would STILL be looking for those small bones. If one uses a passive alert the dog MUST be trained to put its nose on source or stare directly at source. Not lay down or sit six feet from it. Pinpoint.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Maybe I should clarify that we will not go into Forensics but Wilderness Cadaver.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

there is no such thing as forensic human remains detection nor wilderness. In order to pass a certification the dog must be operational in any and all circumstances. 
What is your interpretation of "wilderness" cadaver?
despite the fact that there are folks who use the forensics term it is not proper. no certification for it either


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I thought there was a difference since I asked the question before on here if there is a difference between HRD and Wilderness Cadaver. 

I was told that the two are two entirely different things. That Wilderness Cadaver is about recently deceased people. Like somebody that has gone missing, like the Scriba or Rochester search.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

human remains detection is human remains detection. The dog must be trained for all.Above ground,bury,disarticulated bone etc etc. There is not a certification for just some of it. The dog must pass a national certification and that encompasses all situations. 

Water is usually separate. The exception would be ancient remains dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The discussions I recall on that is that most live find dogs are trained to some degree on human remains to give the handler an idea of their behavior when they encounter it on a search.........as opposed to a dog specifically trained in human remains for all sizes, ages, and possible locations of remains.

Most of the calls we get are for either drownings or cold case searches are disarticulated skeletonized remains....what is the situation where you are? You train to the need. There are cert tests that don't cover everything (I think the NYS test is basically area only if I am correct as opposed to buidlings, vehicles, all the things we actually have been asked to search.)


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

there really is not a need to train a live find dog for that. If a handler can read the dog,it will be obvious. my understanding is that she is abandoning the live find for HRD which encompasses the full spectrum of human decomposition. One maintenance trains based on what their callouts consist of but the dog should be fully operational
What is NYS

one maintenance trains based on one's callouts but the dog should be fully operational because any nationally recognized certification is going to cover the full spectrum,


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

New York State has their own standards

http://www.nysfedsar.org/NYSFEDSARK9Stds022308B.pdf

I think the HR standards have not kept up with the national ones--it is kind of like IPWDA basic in a larger area. I am not sure what cadaver scented material means.

Mrs K, when I look at the standards, won't your dog have to be certified in live find before you can do the state cadaver test? 
------

I think NAPWDA is making some significant changes. A teammate just recently did her recert and they had some much larger hides mixed in with the smaller ones (greater variety of source size) and are requiring more bone and tissue to be used. They were also real sticklers about having fresh aids as well (well, we had to do that before and those are probably the hardest to get) I am being stuck recerting sometime in the spring - Between Grim having to get neutered then breaking his toe we are out of commission for awhile (fortunately his last was IPWDA advanced which is a 2 year cert so technically we are good until next Fall but I still want that next NAPWDA as soon as possible)


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

You could not pay me to use that and sit on a witness stand. Cadaver scented material is ambiguous


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I just posted a link to what is on the NY State web page. Of the natioanl tests available to civilian volunteers , (NASAR, IPWDA, NAPWDA, LETS) I think the NAPWDA is the most comprehensive if someone was just going to do one test.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Mrs K, when I look at the standards, won't your dog have to be certified in live find before you can do the state cadaver test?


That is what i thought too, however you have to have one live certified dog and the second one can be single purpose cadaver. 

They don't train with cadaver scented material. They do train with real material. As far as I know, she's had multiple homocide finds last year since she's got a forensic dog and access to material and is holding herself and her dogs to a higher standard. Also, we can always travel to Virginia.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I dont agree with your NAPWDA assesment. I do not care for folks being able to bring their own aids which they can unless something has changed. And you have never been through one of mine......
I also see no provision for failure based on false alerts, alert on animal etc. in the NYS.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Regardless of what they TRAIN with,the standard needs to be more precise. I am speaking in terms of scrutiny in the courtroom


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> Regardless of what they TRAIN with,the standard needs to be more precise. I am speaking in terms of scrutiny in the courtroom


I'd have to talk to the K9 Coordinator about that. I am not sure if the forensic dogs even certify under federation standard. Thanks for bringing it to my awarness, I'll ask about it.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

They need to run it by Terry Fleck.
We are seeing cadaver dog testimony more in court than we have in years past and we have to adjust.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> I dont agree with your NAPWDA assesment. I do not care for folks being able to bring their own aids which they can unless something has changed. And you have never been through one of mine......
> I also see no provision for failure based on false alerts, alert on animal etc. in the NYS.


So which national certification available to a civilian volunteer do you think best? FWIW none of my teammate's training materials were used during her recent certifcation test.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I was really playing with you a little. I prefer NAPWDA. It used to depend on the official as to whether or not aids were provided. I have not looked lately.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, its frustrating though. I am fortunate to know some folks now who do have larger aids and it really is different. ......... Over the past few years I have seen truth in some things you have said I have disagreed with earlier. That is why I have to qualify 4 years of experience in HR is enough to realize I know the tip of the iceberg pretty well. 

FWIW - I rarely throw my reward anymore either. Dog has to stay at source until I get there then I slip it to the hide as quietly as possible.

No argument that an agressive response is easier to train and maintain. Still an issue with getting access to some of the limited training materials (full body) with an agressive response dog. Some of our agencies demand a passive dog. Texas is a fur peice! Everything's bigger in Texas!

Mrs K, I think the big question I would ask were I you would be "WHO is going to provide an attorney to mentor me if I get called into court?" My understanding is that if you are called in AND you are nationally certified (at least by NAPWDA or IPWDA) they will provide someone to shepherd you through the process....

I would really recommend going through that level of training for NAPWDA because really all the skills such as vehicle and building search actually DO come in handy -- And being certified does not make you an expert, it just indicates that all the necessary foundation pieces are in place.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

so pretty much certify under both umbrellas. Federation because I have to and NAPWDA to be nationally certified.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That's sure what I would do in your shoes.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Sounds like a plan.


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

I went through a seminar wear Andy Rebmann was discussing the importance of accounting for your training and then discussing testifying in court. Apparently he was/is sitting on a board for SWGDOG. Would you ever use their standards to certify?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

SWGDOG is not a certifiying agency with certification standards but a consensus group made of up scientists, people from certifying agencies etc which is putting forth guidelines for all phases of detector dog (including air scent, tracking, and trailing dogs, as well as bomb, narcotics, cadaver, etc) aquisition, training, kennelling, certifying, terminoogy, etc..as an attempt to standardize very diverse processess.

I believe the inent is that certification practices used by certifying agencies would be adjusted over time to be in synch with the guidelines. 

I have attended both of Rebmanns HRD seminars and, like most I have attended, there were some good tidbits, but they only touch the surface. I think the best way to get down the basics is to work one on one with a good police detection dog handler but to get other help with some of the specialized tasks like shallow graves, water, etc. seek out the experts in that particular discipline. 

Police do cars and buildings on a daily basis but there are nuances of figuring out where a body is under water based on where the dog indicates strongest scent (and even knowing how to work a body of water where the dog does not have the freedom to work the scent without you moving the boat) and the same goes for graves as there can be all kinds of factors that make the odor come out of the ground not directly above the body, particularly when the body may have been buried for years. Archeological stuff is another realm. FWIW working a building is an art, as well; it is just part of their daily job and they have it down.

As to passive or active. I agree that, were it not for some agencies demanding passive, active is a better way to go. Active does, however, limit your access in some training venues (such as the FOREST in Cullowhee and getting permission on certain grave training) but realistically-you can see the dog, stop the dog before it does any damage and scavengers have usually done a whole lot more over days, weeks, months, years than your dog will in a few seconds.

Once you have trained for awhile and gone to seminars and networking with people you learn who to go to for what. There are actually three people out west I would like to go see..but it is hard to get away for that far. (Renee is one of them and once the puppy is a little older I may figure out a way to get out there with him-Grim is 8.5 and I have had enough exposure on large sources to know he will go to source-and he is solid, but there is always more to learn for the next dog)

I would say any certification says you have the minimum number of tools in the tool box to do the job properly and that is all it means.

They all agree on the need for recordkeeping and any record you produce can be nitpicked to death by the court.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Nancy I hear ya on the final trained response. There are departments out there that are clueless. A paw scratch from a dog does not destroy evidence any more that all of the indigineous wildlife is going to. And they DO. 

The main thing with the passive is that it be accurate


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jstra84 said:


> I went through a seminar wear Andy Rebmann was discussing the importance of accounting for your training and then discussing testifying in court. Apparently he was/is sitting on a board for SWGDOG. Would you ever use their standards to certify?


 
Ok. SWGDOG is a think tank. nothing more. There are many SWGs. 

Proper training logs are mandatory. period. If one winds up in court they will come into play. Train as you work,work as you train They will hammer aids, certifications, etc. 
I reccomend everyone go to www.k9fleck.org and read the portion for civilian cadaver and SAR. Also, look up the testimony on Utube for the handlers in the casey anthony trial. 

Mrs. K. do you understand why I am saying a bark alone is not going to work? 

Also, folks take care training too much on blood. I have been nagging about that for years and what I have been warning about occurred in the Casey Anthony trial. Blood is found everywhere and can be explained away. I do not need a dog to find blood. There is Luminol and Blue Star Forensic for that. A dog exhibiting final trained response on a car trunk for example. I cut myself changing a flat. The FTR (final trained response) is not probable cause. Reasonable suspicion only. I want to know when my dog exhibits FTR that it is human decomp. period. not blood. something to ponder


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I forgot. The aggressive alert thing is kind of an urban legend. Same discussion with narcotic detector dogs as well. With some departments the passive sounds much kinder and gentler...... The thing is any handlers worth a hoot knows long before the dog exhibits final trained response that the dog is about to because the handler SHOULD have been observing the dog working odor to origin. In certain circumstances one just pulls the dog off just prior to the scratch. simple. We train them to drumroll in maintenance training and in the real world we dont necessarily let them scratch the bumper off of a BMW. It is easier for some departments that do not trust handlers to do that,to demand a passive alert.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think, unfortunately, there are a lot of handlers that don't learn to read the dog -- it took me a few years to get good at doing that and now I can read others' dogs too; I think this puppy is going to be easy. His tail is like a snake attached to his butt. Very very expressive.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

AFter putting on k9 seminars for years I will not disagree with you. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to say,you are pulling your dog off of odor....HUH? dog,odor, smelling......
There are various reasons but the one that dominates is that I see many groups that pattern train. Set out little aids,small area,drag dog toit and solicite the FTR. Then they come here and the dog is clueless because he was never trained to locate odor and work it to source. I could go on.............hahahaha


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was glad on our training at the FOREST that they did let the dogs work to source. It is really interesting that almost all the dogs chose the same set of remains. The dogs had to be onlead in the enclosure..though that too is part of normal training.

The dogs were allowed to work offlead up to the fenced enclosure from about 300 yards away (and the spot Grim tried to go under the fence was actually just below where some adipocere had been removed at the low end of the fence which is on a steep hillside so he hit at the bottom) and in order to work TO the fence we had to work through an area with all kinds of animal caracasses including a huge black bear.

I have seen the same issue about not reading the dog with some bloodhound handlers. The gives a head pop, overshoots a turn and keeps moving and the handler does not reat the head pop OR the dog throwing a negative


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

@Renee:
Thank you for the link. It is really really interesting. 

Funny thing the selection standard. That is what I automatically expect from my dogs in the first place. 

I think the least of my problems will be to find suitable dogs. I've got an endless supply of that...

But when I read the rest of his papers... ooooh boy oh boy oh boy... i don't ever want to end up in court with the way things go right now. 

Maybe I should stick with just Grid Searching (since my heart lies with SAR), do RH Sport instead...maybe I could even try to open an RH Sport Club... that way we could do what we love but wouldn't have to deal with any of these things...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , that is what I was sort of thinking. To do the HRD you have to be prepared to find some gruesome things . The intentions are great though. We had a training situation for search dogs working with the Lions Foundation . There was a case where a young girl maybe 5 years of age (back in the early 80's) , wearing a green one piece and a carrying a towel , going down the elevator to meet her friend and her mom to splash in the private apt pool. She vanished. This is still an unsolved case. The police had searched a stretch of Cherry Beach with nothing found -- and an appeal was put out to the public for assistance. Once that happened our group went in for a second sweep with a line of trained dogs that would indicate anything - any object , which would be mapped on a grid that we had. My stomach just about flipped and I hoped that I had NOT found something . The dog became active and pulling hard and there in the scrub and rock was a double lined black plastic garbage bag with little tibia sticking out . I hoped it wasn't a deceased newborn child . I blew my whistle which meant everyone was to stop where they were . Then an officer came over and took charge of the find. Turns out it was a bag that had a decomposing female cat and her litter of kittens. The tibia sticking out was her front leg that had broken the bag in an attempt to get out . We also found a discarded slimy old fashioned leather business case which had stolen goods - coins and sheets of collector stamps . This was turned in and there was a record of the items as part of an insurance theft/loss claim.
We found them . 

Human Remains and even SAR is serious stuff . 
Many clubs will test the resolve and dedication of the applicant by putting them through trial by fire .
Scavenger hunt searches sound like a great idea for those who want to be at the sport level of involvement . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Human Remains and even SAR is serious stuff .
> Many clubs will test the resolve and dedication of the applicant by putting them through trial by fire .
> Scavenger hunt searches sound like a great idea for those who want to be at the sport level of involvement .


I am commited, trust me I am and dedicated. I'm the one pushing for harder, longer more intense training. If it was up to me, we'd be out there twice or three times a week.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

carmspack said:


> My stomach just about flipped and I hoped that I had NOT found something . The dog became active and pulling hard and there in the scrub and rock was a double lined black plastic garbage bag with little tibia sticking out . I hoped it wasn't a deceased newborn child . I blew my whistle which meant everyone was to stop where they were . Then an officer came over and took charge of the find. Turns out it was a bag that had a decomposing female cat and her litter of kittens. The tibia sticking out was her front leg that had broken the bag in an attempt to get out .


 


That is the reason we have to extensively proof off of animal remains. The dog should have checked it and walked away. We run into items like that searching. Buried pets, leavings of deer and hog hunters etc. The proofing MUST be documented in training records as well


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I think I need to sit back, let all that information sink in and then go from there.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I agree Nancy. Some of the problem is that handlers do not set up realistic training scenarios then in the real world, they do not read the dog. I set up scenarios just for that so the handlers can see their dog's reaction. 

Mrs. K. I dont like to discourage folks but I want to let folks know what is at stake with this HRD stuff. ANY ANY unattended death is considered a homicide until the evidence proves otherwise. The "accidental" drowning, the lost person in the woods could well wind up involving foul play after the forensics,autopsy etc results are in. I called in handlers to assist a couple of weeks ago for a missing 14yr old female. 

Leaving Facebook... | Facebook

This is the case. We are still awaiting the results of toxicology and other interviews for a final determination with regard to cause of death. Everyone involved can wind up right slap on a witness stand. An HRD handler is IN the chain of custody with regard to evidence recovered. Just things to realize.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, I've read that one. 

Oh, it's not about discouraging. I just want to have a good glimpse at reality and not start something and then realize after a year that it's just not enough to be a good Cadaver Dog Handler. Because for that, Nala is way to valuable to be "wasted" like that. 

You are right, while you'd only need one helper to hide the source for you, it's probably easier to come by helpers that will hide for the dogs instead of getting by the source. It would involve a heck of a lot of travelling to train with the really good people. Probably involving staying over night as well. I've got five dogs. No motel or hotel lets you in with four GSD's and a Maligator. 
That means I need a camper or an RV. 
That is cost, so is gas, gear, travel expenses... without pay.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

try La Quinta. All of them are pet friendly. I put all of my dog handlers there when I told trainings. 
Well, honestly,that is what I encourage folks to do. Much easier to find folks for live find instead of HR training aids and frankly, part of the reason that the HRD world is so um, snarky is that there are too many teams. Seriously, aside from a national disaster there are not enough calls for HR dogs and that is why it is "competitive" . Personally, if I were not a cop I would not want to do HRD. It simply has to be done and I have access to the proper aids so I would be irresponsible to not do it. BUT, I think live find is so very rewarding and there are many times that a child is lost, an elderly person walks away from somewhere etc and the clock is ticking.


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## jstra84 (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the great info. Its awesome


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Ask anything anytime. I have spent considerable time on a witness stand and it is a very lonely place.............


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Just thought I'd share. Since I don't have that many helpers to do actually do searches I do a lot of stuff like that. Sometimes, when I go on a walk I toss the ball into the brush and let her search for it, or like here in the frontyard. It's not a cadaver ball, it's usually what she's rewarded with. 





Not sure what else I could do. Not sure if I should start with negative searches at already, I don't really want to do these on my own.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

very nice drive. If you are using a regular tennis ball switch to the kong ones that do not damage tooth enamel. 

The time has come for imprinting on the scented ball and FTR training depending on what your goal is.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm using the everlasting funball. 
Don't really like using the tennis balls. 

She's my wilderness area search dog for live scent, however she's got to be able to find articles and recently deceased as well as live. So I'm wondering if I should imprint her at all with Cadaver?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well, to be perfectly honest, live is live and deceased is not so this finding recently deceased is rather a moot point. 
I promise if you are searching for a lost person that has just recently expired,you will be able to read your dog . And if not, they need to bring in HRD dogs if the person was not located. make sense?JMHO


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_My stomach just about flipped and I hoped that I had NOT found something . The dog became active and pulling hard and there in the scrub and rock was a double lined black plastic garbage bag with little tibia sticking out . I hoped it wasn't a deceased newborn child . I blew my whistle which meant everyone was to stop where they were . Then an officer came over and took charge of the find. Turns out it was a bag that had a decomposing female cat and her litter of kittens. The tibia sticking out was her front leg that had broken the bag in an attempt to get out ._




That is the reason we have to extensively proof off of animal remains. The dog should have checked it and walked away. We run into items like that searching. Buried pets, leavings of deer and hog hunters etc. The proofing MUST be documented in training records as well 
__________________
Renee Utley

In this case Ladylaw the dogs were not Human remains dogs or even certified SAR dogs. These were dogs that had been out and had hundreds of hours of logged tracking training in all conditions , any surface. We were asked to comb the area to locate any thing that may have been left behind -- buttons, wallets, keys, clothing , everything was left and marked on a grid and handed over . Cherry Beach is a bit of a departure point for an easy cross into Buffalo USA -- bit of a rough stoney beach so not frequented often , a bit of "industrial" area , petty crime , drugs etc. That is why the area was of interest.
here is the case , who would not help? all of Toronto tried to help somehow.





 
use of dogs for service was so relatively new in the area . Metro Toronto k9 PD , which had two dogs from me, was "new" . 
Carmen


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

In this case Ladylaw the dogs were not Human remains dogs or even certified SAR dogs
***********************8

I am glad that is clarified. We just do not do that here in the US. That is why I commented.



Also,Mrs,K. I forgot. The term recently deceased is a relative term. Many groups do not have proper aids and think that training on placenta or the like is going to produce a dog that will locate a recently deceased individual above ground. Not so. The average dog will have just as good a chance. Dogs are dogs. A dead cow or deer will produce a response from a dog as well. Just read your dog


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Our own experience with this on a search a few years ago was two dogs, one trailing, one airscent deployed from different locations and were converging in the same area but the dogs got kind of strange acting and confused and did not go in which, as I understand, is NOT atypical for a live find dog with the recently deceased. FWIW the trailing dog was having a difficult go. Bits and peices 24 hour old track in the heat of summer..not much to work with.

We concurred and reported that we felt the victim was in that area and requested a cadaver dog be sent but only a live find dog from another team had been sent to recheck our area and reported nothing. That live find dog had the typical training on small amounts of old decomp so it was "cross trained" [we don't cross train our live find dogs other than running them past it to see if they notice which they usually don't]

We left the search very troubled about what went on with our dogs until we got confirmation that, she was located in the area our dogs balked the next day by a ground searcher, and it appeared she had passed away before we even started the search. So we called it correctly.

Now I NEVER go on a live search without my cadaver dog in the truck just in case we get strange behavior**. HE trains on fresh though not as much as we would like but then he has also located several drowning victims (also fresh). A live find dog that trains on a jar of decomp is not going to do much with a recently deceased person.

**we did on one search where a searcher smelled something and in working, Grim stepped over a dead dog to work a crawlspace (her never noticed the dead dog but I sure did  )


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's weird, I was just told today that a sound live-find Airscent dog should recognize recently deceased people and alert on it. So is that what you mean with strange behavior and alerting on it?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Both dogs were following scent but did not close in on victim. The dogs were correctly read by the handlers as heading towards the victim. The handlers correctly felt that the victim has probably passed away. What training issue would you note?

How dead is too dead for a live find dog to confirm? How dead is too fresh for a dog only trained on old decomp to find. I can't tell you that. I know others have reported the strange behavior of some live find dogs in this situation. I have seen it on another search with other dogs. It is not a scenario you can really set up in training.

24 hours after a hot summer day in South Carolina is going to have some changes occurring.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> That live find dog had the typical training on small amounts of old decomp so it was "cross trained" [we don't cross train our live find dogs other than running them past it to see if they notice which they usually don't]
> 
> )


 
Exactly! Mrs,K I would not expect a live find dog to exhibit its final trained response on a deceased person.


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