# Question about coat color inheritance



## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

I was watching Deryl's color chart and realized that my dog's mother had a very interesting litter  

My dog is solid black, no other color markings on her and she is 4 years old. Her father is black and all her liter mates are black. Her mother appears completely black with a bit of lighter markings on her back legs.










They both have lighter undercoat, this is my girl and her undercoat. Also, very very dark eyes and a bit lighter skin.









Last year her mother had a litter with sable male. Puppies ware solid black, rich bi-color, black and tan, blanket black and tan (very light cream color) and I think one puppy was dark sable... sooo almost every possible color  
- Dam has black dogs in first 2 generations, 3-5 gen. sables-bi-col. and few blacks.
- Sire has all sables except his mother, she is black.

How could Black and Sable dogs produce all of this in one litter? With black dogs she produces only black puppies.


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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

It has to do with how genetics work. I know with Shilohs, almost every litter you see, if not two plushes will ALWAYS be a plush and a smooth coat, as smooth coats throw only smooths because it's a recessive gene, to make a smooth coat you need: x+x=smooth. Plush coats are the dominant gene, so a plush coat from a smooth litter always has the change to throw smooths when paired with a smooth mate. X+x=Plush X+X=Plush x+x=smooth. Plush puppies from a plush/smooth breeding will always be X+x=plush, as the smooth can only contribute the recessive gene.

Two plushes have the exceedingly rare chance of throwing a smooth as long as both carry the recessive smooth gene. Two smooths can never throw a plush as they cannot carry the plush gene. This is at least to the best of my knowledge, colours work similarly to that, in dominant and recessive genes (as well as co-dominant genes).


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes, but if we look at Deryl's chart, it should not be posible... that is why I'm confused


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Waiting for a word from the experts on that one because the sable male would carry black and sable and if she was truly black it would be black and blak and the outcome should only be blacks and sables. Maybe there is a 2nd father in the mix?


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

I thought of second father too, but breeder (my friend) was with her all the time so that should not be the case.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds like a 2nd father.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If there were solid blacks (and we are 100% sure they were solid blacks and not melanistic Bi-colors) than it isn't possible. Even if mom was actually a Bi-color you could still not get any b/t puppies and if dad carried b/t than you would not have any blacks.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

So, any theory? except 2nd father  what if mother had some Belgian shep. along the line?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Second father. DNA testing of sire, dam and all of the pups is the only way to know for sure.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Thanks


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

One more thing I forgot... brother of the dam in question, also black GSD, had few black and tan puppies with different black females. It is usually only one B/T puppy in litter and it rarely happens. That shouldn't be possible right? And it happened with his black female, they were kenneled together and there is no B/T stud near them, and if there were any, black male wouldn't let him near his female. 

I know for one more breeder with 2 black females (sisters, but not related to previous dogs) and they produce black and bi-color puppies with black males in almost every litter.

None of that shouldn't be possible if they are truly black. And all of them look black, no yellow coloring between toes or other body parts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the black grand dam , with the little bit of colour bleeding through is not solid black , melanistic black and tan , melanistic bi colour .

what is her pedigree ?

had so many lively discussions with Linda Shaw about this one . Had a "black" dog named Ivana "Ivory" who for all appearances was black. Except on very thorough examination there were some tufts of barely visible dark tan coming through on her hind of front leg . Later some hair of non - black colour between feet.

Technically a melanistic black and tan . But try to register this dog as a DNA black and tan and you would be accused of substituting dogs .
Color question (bleed through) | Genetics Discussions | GermanShepherdHome.net


That is one way to ascertain parentage and colour , DNA test available at http://www.dnacenter.com/blog/ddc-veterinary-expands-canine-coat-color-testing-to-the-s-locus/ -- also available paternity testing .


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Thanks for the links Carmen, I see Ivana but she has really pronounced yellow on her legs and I think there is some between her toes? Dogs that I mentioned looks completely black everywhere, except for mother of my Kali she have "bleeding" on her back legs that started to show recently. 
Her pedigree:









These are not young dogs, 6-8 years old.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

? you can't see Ivana , Carmspack Ivana https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=559016-carmspack-ivana because I don't think I have a picture of her posted anywhere.
Colour doesn't concern me , just that the pigment is deep and rich , for aesthetics .
Ivana would appear black until you got down and held her leg right up to your face .


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Sorry, i thought this is Ivana http://wildhauskennels.com/dogs/Kali/kali30.JPG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very very close in appearance , not quite as much of a bleed through - so the Wildhaus Ivana may be a bi colour bleed through

you might be interested in this study Portfolio Themeset

New Page 1


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What color is this pup?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff , I would say sable-- many of my sables are like this


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would say finish up like a Robby Glockeneck , Gideon Larwin type colour.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Carmen, thanks for the study I'll take a look. I'll just add 2 more pics of Dam and her brother. 










and closeup of her toes










Her brother who produced few b/t puppies with black females


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, you get a cigar, the pup is a sable. My point is that just like some patterned sables can look like Bl and Tn, there are all black dogs that are bi-colors and very difficult to determine without knowing both parents and parents of both parents. Not saying OP's dog is not all black, but one parent could be bi possibly.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

This female gave birth to B/T puppy with male from previous post. She is also completely black.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cases like this is why I often wonder if there is a true black in our breed and it isn't instead some type of modifier that determines how much black is expressed. That might also explain why generations of black to black seems to produce no bleed through where as the blacks from other types of breedings often, not always, are not jet black and have the bleed through. Of course, isn't there now a test to determine if a dog carriers the black recessive?


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Cases like this is why I often wonder if there is a true black in our breed and it isn't instead some type of modifier that determines how much black is expressed.


That is what I wonder, those dogs are black, I saw them in person and b/t puppy shouldn't be possible to get from those two. Maybe bi-color, if they are not truly black, but no b/t. 


lhczth said:


> Of course, isn't there now a test to determine if a dog carriers the black recessive?


I don't know if there is any in my country, and sending samples to other countries would be complicated.


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## t-po (Nov 3, 2014)

hello everyone

i am little confuse about my GSD coat can anyone tell me more aboute it








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