# dog aggressive gsd? (this is a little long)



## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

Hello there, I'm new here and I'm still pretty new to owning a GSD. I've done a fair amount of browsing the forum and have come across quite a bit of very helpful information, so I'm hoping to find some more helpful advice.

This might be a bit long - so if you take the time to read it, I thank you. I would like to learn all that I possibly can in order to provide my dog with a healthy and happy home.

I have a 2 1/2 year old male GSD, he is neutered. His name is Sebastian. I actually picked him up off the street when he was just a pup, and I completely fell in love with him, but now a couple years later, I seem to have run into a few problems with him.

When he was about 6-7 months old, I made the move from a house into an apartment complex where people don't really keep their dogs on leashes and eventually on one of our walks, a neighbors pitbull attacked him, latched onto his face, and just would not let go. I was terrified. There was a fair bit of damage done, but he recovered. After that, I decided that it might be better for me to keep him inside, which I realize now might have been a bad idea on my part. He lacks socialization skills and seems to have built up a bit of dog aggression (or extreme excitement which leads to aggression, I'm unsure).

In hopes of getting him socialized again, I started taking him to obedience classes, and while they're doing some good, I feel as if though the trainer I am working with is not fully addressing the problem that I have with Sebastian so I'm probably going to search for a new trainer soon. I'm still doing my very best to learn how to be a calm and assertive pack leader, but there are still a few questions that I'm hoping I could have some help with.

Since the trainer I am working with did not feel it was safe to let Sebastian near other dogs, she recommended that I walk him around the outside of a dog park just to get him "desensitized" to other dogs. It seemed like a good idea so I gave it a shot. I brought him into the dog park after a few rounds because the only other person there offered to help me, and since his dog was the only one in the park at the time, I figured why not?

I brought him in on his leash and let them have their introduction, and since they seemed alright, I let him off his leash, and he seemed to get along just fine, which was a surprise to me, he had never been so docile around any other dogs before. Later that day he was in the park with about 25 other dogs and he did not seem to be having any problems at all. His second day at the park did not go as well though. I noticed that he does a lot of nipping when he attempts to play with other dogs. He doesn't really chase other dogs, and they don't chase him, but he will follow certain dogs from time to time just give them a nip on the side. I don't know whether or not this is dominant behavior or if it's normal. Other owners seem bothered by it so I always move in and correct him whenever I see him nipping at other dogs. He also seems to try and play with other dogs, but it's as if he just doesn't know how.

There have been two instances in which he's gotten a bit aggressive with other dogs while in the dog park. The first occurred when he was sniffing another dog and the other dog just did not like it and began growling before they both snapped at each other, and the second was with a puppy that was overly playful. Both instances I corrected his behavior which seemed to help.

Another thing I noticed was that he reacts a lot differently to dogs when he's on his leash. When I walk him, if we walk by another dog, even if he just sees it from far away. He will go wild. He will bark and growl, howl, and yelp. He's even bitten another dog that gotten too close while we were on our walk. Is it my fear that causes him to react in this manner and is he just more susceptible to it because he's on a leash? I admit often times I can get a little nervous because of past experiences which I am trying to control and have been getting better at.

Any advice on things I can do to help control his aggression when he's on his leash, and during certain instances at the dog park? I know a lot of people don't really recommend dog parks and I can understand why, but I am having a difficult time trying to get him socialized since the current trainer I'm working with doesn't even trust him around other dogs. He seems to enjoy the dog park for the most part and I'm always on close watch to make sure nothing escalates. Is there anything that I'm doing wrong and can do differently?

Thanks in advance!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would definitely find another trainer, or even a private trainer.........

i also would stay away from dog parks...........its not a controlled atmosphere and anything can happen, not a positive place for a dog like that........

i think you need to work on his focus, more obedience on leash, and also set him up with non reactive dogs one at a time and build from there..........and do this with a professional so they can teach you how to recognize signals from your dog and how to work within thresholds, etc..........


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is classic fear agression and you are "expecting" something to happen when he is on lead, you tense up and he senses it. I had one dog with classic fear agression and another with a bit of dominance agression....

Honestly I would teach him to be dog neutral and work on gettin him to focus on YOU when you go past a difficult location. I found fenced dogs were a wonderful opportunity for one of my dogs because I could get him to heel past them with me. I am never going to ask my dogs to play with strange dogs at a dog park. With dogs I know I am fine ocassionally with them runnning around supervised.

In the meanwhile your first trainer was on target about desensitizing. I would not have taken him into the park at this point.

There are divergent views on managing a reactive dog.

One view has you giving the dog agressive dog a command and correcting them for breaking THAT so that the dog does not associate the correction for the other dog but for breaking a command - and reading the dog as the correction has to be timed when the dog is thinking about it not going off. A split second. Actually even a fear aggressive dog can succeed at this approach but is NOT going to be Mr Social Butterfly.

The other tries to rehabilitate the dog by either slowly desensitizing them or flooding them.

Whatever you do - get references for whoever helps you and follow up with the people they helped. This is something I would educate with on the internet and find a professional to really help you.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

First, if your trainer isn't meeting your needs, find a new trainer but you already knew that.

Second, you went way too fast too soon. While he did well that one day with that one day, I would never have put him in with 25 dogs! Stay out of the dog park and go back to walking outside it. Most adult GSDs don't do well at dog parks and contrary to popular belief, dogs do not need to play with other dogs. Also, the off leash interactions could be making his on leash frustration worse.

Get the book or video Control Unleashed and start doing Look At That (LAT) training.

To do LAT, go to the park where you will see dogs but stay far enough away that he doesn't react to them (called subthreshold), encourage him to look at the dogs and then get him to look back at you, treat him for not reacting. Do this for a minute or two each day and slowly decrease your distance. It's not going to be a quick fix but it will help.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

My GSD is the same way with other dogs. As a puppy I always socialized him around other dogs. We went to the dog park, on walks of course, we have friends who have dogs and would often do playdates, and puppy parties at the vet's office. As he matured, dispite the socialization, he just became more and more reactive to other dogs, adult or puppy. He goes wild for the first few mintutes, and then after he realizes the dog is not a "challenge" or a threat to him, he plays very nicely and is very happy around them. It's almost as if he wants to take introductions slowly, and when a dog gets pushy or tries to play with him before he "gets to know them," he gets unsure, and reacts. He gives classic body language as to say "back off" but when dogs don't listen to that body language, he gets defensive. I am still working on him, and he is getting better at focusing on me as he gets older, but you are not alone!!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I agree with Jamie, I was kind of floored when you wrote that you let him off-leash in a dog park with that many dogs. I only say that because I have a fear reactive dog and I think if I did that, it would be a complete and total disaster, as well as making his fear so much worse than it already is.

I had to hire a private trainer for my dog. It's been going really well and she has given me lots of great tips on how to manage Niko when he is in situations that make him uncomfortable. She also has a couple of rock solid labs that she is working with us (they are guide dog program drop outs due to health issues, so they are very well-adjusted and non-reactive dogs).

I guess you need to decide what your goal is with your dog. Do you just need to be able to go on walks without your dog reacting to other dogs? Do you plan on getting another dog? Do you really need your dog to be good at a dog park? For me, I just need Niko to not react to other dogs (barking at them) when we are out in public. I know I will never be able to let him go to a dog park, he is clearly uncomfortable with other dogs and always has been, so I see no reason to force him to mingle with other strange dogs.


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

I was a little worried that I may have taken it too fast too soon. I guess I was a bit caught up in the moment, and that is nobody's fault but my own. I'm still doing a fair amount of learning and I've never had problems with past dogs before so this is still all very new for me. When I first entered the park with him, there was only one other dog so I hung around for a bit since the two seemed to get along very well, he seemed pretty comfortable around the dog, and slowly as other dogs started to come in, he seemed okay. Before I knew it there was a bunch of other dogs and he didn't really seem to react to most of them. I didn't hang around too long once there was so many dogs in the park because I was still unsure, and I will not enter the park if there's too many dogs there already, I can definitely see where I went wrong. I will continue to desensitize him by just walking him around the outside of the park until he seems more neutral when he sees another dog. I don't want to do anymore damage to him than what has already been done.

I will continue to do more research, and look into getting videos/book that could help me further learn how to work with Sebastian. I'm looking into other trainers in my area that can possibly help me get more into addressing the exact problems with Sebastian. My current trainer does very good with teaching me how to get him to learn certain tricks, but I think she's more about learning tricks than she is about getting a dog to be obedient. She hasn't exactly taught me how to handle him in certain situations which is something that I am having trouble with. Often she has me force him down onto the ground and hold him until he is no longer tense, but that only seems to work up to a certain point.

My first goal is to be able to walk him without being reactive to other dogs, and I realize that a large part of that has to do with me tensing up when I see another dog. While I am getting better at it, I still need a lot of work in controlling my own anxiety and fear in order to be able to control him correctly and calmly. My second goal is just to get him to be comfortable around other dogs in general. I will be moving in with my fiance in a few months and he has a dog of his own and while he doesn't have any problems with his dog, I don't want Sebastian to have any problems with him.

Thanks again everybody for your advice, I very much appreciate it.


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## missmychance (Jan 20, 2011)

Frodo has the same issues so I know where your coming from. The walking by fenced dogs is a good idea. There are a few houses that we walk past the back yards and the dogs go crazy barking at us. It has taken Frodo a month until he was walking past and focusing on me. Now he just looks at them, wags his tail but nothing more than that. I know its just a few dogs/houses but its an improvement. The good thing is you know theres a problem and your trying to correct it. Just be patient and give it time. I too know how difficult it is to remain calm when seeing another dog but it just takes time. I also know that Frodo will probably never go back to the dog park but I'm just hopeful for a non reactive dog on walks. I wish you the best of luck.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

bastian said:


> My current trainer does very good with teaching me how to get him to learn certain tricks, but I think she's more about learning tricks than she is about getting a dog to be obedient. She hasn't exactly taught me how to handle him in certain situations which is something that I am having trouble with. *Often she has me force him down onto the ground and hold him until he is no longer tense, but that only seems to work up to a certain point.*


I added the boldface to that last sentence. On a 2 1/2 year old dog, I think this is a bad idea. Actually I'm not a fan of this kind of physical correction on any age of dog. Now I really, really think you should find a different trainer.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

bastian said:


> My first goal is to be able to walk him without being reactive to other dogs, and I realize that a large part of that has to do with me tensing up when I see another dog.


This is where keeping him subthreshold and at a distance will help you both. The less he reacts to dogs the less reinforcing it is for him to do that and the less worried you will be  

I have to say that I am not a fan of forcing a dog into submissive positions (a down) in order to calm them down and assuming he's a pretty big guy at 2.5 years old, this can be dangerous if not done correctly. And again, if you can keep him subthreshold then you won't have to do that.

While working on him being neutral to strange dogs could take a long time, I would start working on the relationship with your fiance's dog now. A private trainer can help you work on that and it's the same principle that I mentioned above... spend lots of evenings of exposing them to each other at a distance on neutral territory where your dog doesn't react until you can walk them next to each other. You don't want it to be move in day and completely stress him out by putting them together (which would set your training back to the beginning), you want them to already be used to each other. Lots of reactive dogs are okay with their "pack" but still react to strange dogs.

Sounds like you are doing a good job already. It's a process but if you stick to it, it gets better.


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

I will definitely be taking different routes when I walk him now. I agree that walking him by fenced dogs is a good idea for helping him become non-reactive to other dogs. I wish it was easier to do in my area but people here just let there dogs run loose and aren't too keen on keeping their fences closed so I will try to find an area where I can walk him by dogs that are actually fenced in. I've had quite a few run-ins with dogs that will basically follow me the entire way home causing Sebastian, and myself, to just become pretty crazy.

Thanks so much for the kind wishes, and it's very comforting to know that I am not alone in this.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You went WAY too fast! Counter-conditioning and desensitization can take a long time - months, not days or weeks. Sometimes even years. I wouldn't even think about taking him into a dog park right now, I'd keep working with him outside. Since he's worse on leash than he is off (which is very common), it sounds like a form of barrier frustration often referred to as leash reactivity. As others have said, it's probably fear based, and likely not even true aggression at all. Reactive dogs make a big show, an aggressive display that's designed to scare the other dog away. If directly challenged and confronted, this kind of dog would run away, not engage. But the leash prevents them from doing that, it takes away their options, and they react accordingly. A truly aggressive dog would choose fight, not flight. 

And don't try to walk him by fenced dogs just yet, at least not right next to the fence. Ideally you'd have some distance from the trigger, where he notices the other dog but it's far enough away that he's not reacting yet. That's what sub-threshold means - once he's over his threshold, his tolerance level for that trigger, it's too late, he's already reacting. Your only option at that point is to get him out of there as quickly as possible. It is really important for you to keep calm and matter of fact so he doesn't feed off your nervousness. Act happy, smile, laugh, talk silly to him - the "jolly routine". That will help you too - it's hard to be tense when you're laughing.


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

I guess it really is time to find a new trainer. I only have a couple more sessions left with her, so now is my chance to look elsewhere. It has been pretty hard to get him into a submissive down position. He is a pretty big guy now and it took both me and the trainer at some point to get him into a down position safely, which had me fairly worried but the trainer seemed very sure of what she was doing. Perhaps I've watched a bit too much Dog Whisperer. I don't know how it didn't hit me that it could've been dangerous, not only for us but for him as well. I've been told that I should look into possibly getting him into Schutzhund Training? I've done a small bit of reading about it but I'm still not entirely sure if it's the kind of training that my dog needs.

This past week, I have found that I have more luck on my own when I'm able to remain calm assertive and correct him without having to interact too much physically but more so just with my body language. Often times it is difficult for me to remain calm in certain situations, and while I have been getting better at it, I do need more work. Cassidy's Mom - you are definitely right. It is hard to remain tense when you're laughing. I never thought about trying that, so I will give it a try. I will also make sure to take it slow and not push him into things. I hadn't realized that it could do more harm than good.

I will definitely begin practicing keeping him at his sub-threshold as well, especially with my fiance's dog. The last thing I want to do is cause stress on Sebastian and set him back to the beginning. There is still a lot of work to be done but I think we've come too far to regress now, despite my mistakes. I know he would react if we walked a bit too close by a fenced dog so I will try and find a distance that is comfortable for him. I'm working on getting him more focused on me than his surroundings, and taking more steps in the right direction.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would get him professionally evaluated, and preferably by a private trainer who can also spend time with you and your dog alone to determine what type of training system will work for you......something you can't really get in group classes since there are to many people and not enough time.........one on one attention to teach you how to handle situations with your dog, setting up situations to help guide you through it.........to me this is worth the money..
As far as SchH training, you need to have a solid stable dog to do protection work, most responsible clubs will not let unstable fearful dogs into that phase otherwise you would have a time bomb on your hands.......and maybe your dog is stable he just needs the right direction, thats why a professional eval is important......the other phases of SchH training would be good, the structured Obedience and tracking, and some clubs will let you do those two and not do the protection part........you certainly could talk with your local club and get some info.........they would be a good group to work with in the other phases......


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I think you guys are on the right track and Cassidy is right about the 
"stress tolerance threshold" thing. Basically when there are too many dogs for him to keep track of his STT gets overwhelmed and he starts nipping. Overall it actually sounds like he's doing pretty good for having been attacked by a pitbull. (I bet he wont tolerate dogs that look like pitbulls around him at all, just guessing) I would say however that if he is barking and growling on leash then you should probbably be correcting him for that (dont know if you are or not, didnt say). 
I would also recommend AGAINST dog parks. Those places are disasters waiting to happen. I would read up in the following articles
Dog Parks Why they are a Bad Idea <-- dog parks
Dealing with Aggressive Dogs <---agressive dogs (scroll down past the arm bite for fear agression)
http://leerburg.com/dog-agg.htm<--- dog agressive dogs
I really like and respect what Ed Frawley has to say on these subjects. He is very educational about these things. I home this helps.


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

Debbie - I'm looking to having him professionally evaluated soon and looking into a private trainer. I know it's definitely worth the money, the problem is that I'm a college student so at the current moment I'm pretty low on money. 
I'm looking to get to it this summer once my classes are over and I can find a full-time job. I thought group training would be good for getting him desensitized to other dogs but he has a very difficult time even focusing on me when he's around other dogs. He spends most of his time yelping. As for Schutzhund, that's why I figured that it probably wasn't the best thing for him, especially right now.

If anyone knows of any good trainers in the Phoenix, Arizona area, I would be more than happy with any kind of recommendations. I'm still pretty new in the area and haven't had very much luck with finding trainers except the woman I am with now, and I do like her - she's great, I just don't think I'm really getting what Sebastian needs.

And Joshua - You are correct. He does seem very weary around pitbulls, I'm pretty much surrounded by them so I run into them more often than any other kind of dog, and I don't have anything against pitbulls at all, infact I love the breed, but people around here don't seem to know what leashes are. They also broke up a dog fighting ring around here not too long ago, so that has me weary as well. Also thank you for the links. He does seem to have lots of helpful information. I'm still looking through it all. I think I might look into buying some of his videos/books.

One thing that has me a little curious is last time at the dog park he had a smaller pitbull run up to him and roll over onto his back in front of him. I think the dog was being completely submissive towards my dog? Sebastian seemed frightened and moved away, so I decided to leave the park. But I don't really know how to interpret that.

I do a lot of corrections when walking him. I take him to the park twice a day to walk him for an hour and he does very very well when he's walking with me. No pulling or tugging, always by my side, even if we are around other people, and he's very good with following commands. It's just the moment that he sees another dog that he loses total control and begins to bark and cry. He will growl sometimes but more often it's a very loud cry and bark. There've been a few times where though he was not vocal, a dog did get to close and they got face to face and kinda snapped at each other. My trainer said that it was excitement, that can sometimes lead to aggression? I try as best as I can to correct him in these moments and remove him from the situation (which is difficult when it's an off-leash dog that follows you home..) and usually he does not calm down until the other dog is out of sight, or he will sit and continuously whine.

I had a neighbor who was a k9 trainer for over 30 years tell me that I should just take him to a dog park and let him loose (this being a year ago, his behavior was not as bad as it is now). I still felt very unsure about that advice though, but recently since he's been doing a lot better I guess that's what pushed me into my decision into allowing him into a dog park, although I can see now why that might've been a mistake on my part. He does seem fine when there's a few dogs around, but I can definitely see why he would get overwhelmed and also understand that it's a bad idea.

And I just wanted to say thanks again everybody for the helpful advice. I will take whatever I can get so that I can be lead into the right direction in helping me help my dog. I very much appreciate it.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

_



And Joshua - You are correct. He does seem very weary around pitbulls

Click to expand...

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> > *Bully breeds can be very hard for our GSD's (and many other breeds) to read when it comes to body language. They often stare and stalk in play and it is mistaken for aggression. *
> >
> > _
> >
> > ...


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## jayd215 (Dec 23, 2010)

*every dog is different, but*

my GSD is undersocialized and is a lot like yours. on leash she is reactive to approaching dogs. off leash she approaches introductions nervously and is prone to nipping.

we're doing positive reinforcement training with a trainer. this means we use high value treats (cheese, hot dogs, lunchmeat, etc.) to reward her for calm behavior around other dogs. when a dog is approaching, she gets a treat for turning her gaze back towards me and focusing on me. or, if she's getting to the point where she's likely to react or if i need a way to create distance between her and another dog, i toss a treat and tell her to find it. her reward for following the "find it" command is getting the treat. (this is just the basics of how it works; there are many more tricks of the trade.)

we're also taking a reactive rover class (conveniently taught by our trainer) at our local SPCA. next week is our first week working with the other dogs in the class. hopefully it will go well.

i've found that reinforcement of obedience on leash is really helpful. i walk out the door before her; she waits and then follows on command. if she's pulling on the leash, i stop and she knows to get back next to me. i've also taught her some commands like 'turn right,' 'turn left,' 'touch' (touch her nose to my hand), etc. that she can do on leash that can reinforce who's in charge when we're walking. i find when she's at her most reactive, she's also at her least responsive to commands -- so if that happens we'll stop at a quiet corner and do some obedience work until she's back to being responsive.

we don't go to the dog park. it's too much for her to handle. our trainer has suggested that we focus on being great on leash before going off leash, so that's what we're doing. we'll do some off leash training with the trainer, using a soft nylon muzzle at first until she's better acclimated. we do go off leash when there are no dogs around, and i use that time to reinforce obedience and responsiveness in addition to playing.

she is a former schutzhund dog, so she has a really strong training foundation already. i have no experience training dogs and i've found her easy to teach. she's highly motivated to please her owner and learn new things, which is the idealized schutzhund dog personality. i feel conflicted about the protection phase of schutzhund training (i adopted her after this training so had no say in if she did it), but i do see a lot of great markers in her personality that are helpful to me in training and conditioning her. (she's also extremely gifted at tracking and scenting; when she is calmer i may put her into search and rescue training. i'm working towards becoming a SAR volunteer myself, so it's something we could do together.)

one other thing... we walk with a gentle leader. she acclimatized to it fairly quickly. i like it for increasing my control and reducing her ability to bite. i wrap the noseband in dr. scholl's moleskin so it doesn't mar her face. have you looked at the gentle leader or halti? ours has been very helpful.

there are a lot of different approaches to training. like others have said, shop around until you find what works for you. i can post some resources on positive reinforcement training if that's helpful (and if i remember to look back at this thread). what i will tell you is that you can definitely make progress. my dog was wwwaaaaayyyyy more highstrung a couple of months ago when we started training. she's now calm and very focused most of the time. if i lose her focus i can get it back. her threshold at which she reacts to other dogs has dropped from 15-20 feet to about 5-10. just pick a training method that seems to be working and stick with it. there are a lot of ways to address this issue.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Glad you are looking for a private trainer, yes, it is expensive, but usually a few visits and some guidence can get you going on the right track, then periodically if you are having an issue or questions you have someone to guide you....

you never want dogs to meet when extreme excitement is present.........i would also start this process with non-reactive dogs, breeds that are milder and more laid back giving off calm vibes......


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

I hadn't considered that negative reinforcement might actually escalate his already bad behavior around other dogs. I was told that I should correct him when he begins to focus on another dog and starts whining, but I did notice that whenever I did try and correct him for whining/staring, it triggered a worse reaction like barking/lunging but when I try to distract him with treats or something he just ignores it, and often ignores me, so I don't know how I would try positive reinforcement around another dog. He can be calm but it is very rare but I guess that's where sub-threshold would come into play? As well as taking advantage of his "calm" moments.

Thank you for sharing your experience Jay, it's very helpful and gives me hope that I could get somewhere with Sebastian eventually. I know it can take a while but sometimes it just seems impossible!

I had considered using a gentle leader but I was unsure of whether or not it would hold when he pulled/tried to run towards another dog. I used to use a harness until he Houdini'd his way out of it during a group training session, and the trainer recommended I try a nylon pinch collar (the one without the prongs, I think that's what they're called?) and that is what I am using now. He can put up a pretty good fight sometimes in trying to get to something that he really wants, in most cases another dog and/or a cat. Would a gentle leader work well enough to keep him from escaping?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

have you been working on some good focus training? starting with mild distractions and working from there.........this takes time........the goal is to teach your dog to look at you in situations.......there are alot of beginner focus exercises to start with, you can also use clicker training for this.......
once you get good focus you can usually redirect thier attention back to you....also learning your dogs triggers, reaction distances, etc, and catching them before they get to thresholds.............


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

bastian said:


> I hadn't considered that negative reinforcement might actually escalate his already bad behavior around other dogs. I was told that I should correct him when he begins to focus on another dog and starts whining, but I did notice that whenever I did try and correct him for whining/staring, it triggered a worse reaction like barking/lunging but when I try to distract him with treats or something he just ignores it, and often ignores me, so I don't know how I would try positive reinforcement around another dog. He can be calm but it is very rare but *I guess that's where sub-threshold would come into play?*


This is exactly where subthreshold comes into play. When I was working with my highly reactive foster, I was taking advice from a trainer that told me to correct him and what I found is the same as you, if I corrected him when he tensed or was focused or maybe growled, he would explode. If I just let him be until the dog passed (meaning I stayed calm and relaxed) or talk to him in a fun voice, he would ignore the dog and refocus on me. Where I had the most success was being _super_ aware of my surroundings and seeing dogs before he did. I would then get him focused on me with treats and talking and then would encourage him to look at the dog and back at me while talking to him in a happy but not too excited voice the whole time. When he looked at other dogs and didn't react, treats and praise. We went from having to be 30ft away from other dogs to being able to walk him through a crowd of dogs with no problem in a few months. He still had some trouble with one on one encounters in the neighborhood when he was adopted but he's new owner is working on it.

The collar your trainer recommonded is a martingale, it's a good tool to keep dogs from slipping their collar. Use what you are comfortable with and have the most control with. I don't find that you have a lot of control with the gentle leader and worry about hurting the dog's neck if they lunge.

Have you looked into reactive dog classes in your area? Those could be a big help to you. And the book I recommended up above. Control Unleashed is all about helping reactive dogs as is Scaredy Dog that valreegrl mentioned. 

It takes time and patience to work with a reactive dog. It's a s l o w process but you'll get there.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good advice above............i would suggest private training before going into a reactive dog class......this is so you have one on one guidence and can successfully learn to handle situations..........working on focus and things mentioned above.......this is to help you gain confidence as well......
they have been using the CAT methods for dog aggression issues with great success, there are alot of different methods, and training tools you just have to use the approapriate one thats fits the individual......


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Reactivity and dog parks can have a connection:Powered by Google Docs

Or if that link doesn't work, pdf link: http://www.apdt.com/petowners/park/docs/DogParks_King.pdf


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Some dogs are not social butterflies just like some people and when you have an incident that can just solidify it. I see no reason to have my dogs interact with other dogs, but I want them to ignore them if they cross our paths and focus on me. I had & have issues with my older dogs being reactive to dogs & people and I have used the B.A.T. Behavioral Adjustment Training http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/BAT-basics.pdf technics with great success. I don't agree with the trainer who had you alpha roll your dog. It can get very confussing when you have to choose between a correction and working with sub threshold. From my experience working on sub threshold has much more positive results.


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## ilivenanigloo (Jul 6, 2006)

I have the same issues. 

I'm not an expert and this is the ONLY dog I have ever been soley responsible for (concerning training). I've made mistakes and I would do many things differently, so please don't read this and respond telling me I'm an idiot. 

Long version (or you can skip this):
I got Lupa as a 6 month old puppy, not knowing anything about the socialization period (MISTAKE 1- already, what a bright outlook!) and found out she was aggressive to other dogs. She would lunge at other dogs on leash and go insane if one approached the back yard, where she was fenced in. 

When I got her, there was already a dog in the house and they only ever had one bad fight, in which the little dog bit right through my thumb nail. I have not had my dog for 4 years due to college. She is 7 and has three legs now (Mistake 2- getting a dog that would eventually need to be cared for by someone else). I worked with her every chance I got while in college. She has gotten along well with my friend's shepherds and the two little dogs she has lived with. 

Last year, my parents told me she attacked a beagle. I have no idea how accurate this is because my parents are paranoid about shepherds to begin with and tend to exaggerate things like this. Still, it's worth mentioning. Knowing my parents, she reacted to their reaction to the dog. My parents do not know how to handle dogs and they freak out about things, even little things. My parents did not believe me when I told them that the reason Lupa and the first dog she lived with got into little spats all the time was that they were both dominant dogs and needed more structure. My dad doesn't understand how holding a dog in your lap while sitting on a chair teaches a dog it's OK to be on the furniture. They don't seem to have a problem with the fact their dachsund has bitten my sister three times (he told me on day one if Lupa ever bit anyone he'd shoot her). I am not bashing them; I am merely trying to demonstrate their total lack of dog savvy and how their worry-wart dispositions may have interfered. They claim to think Lupa was being territorial, but I doubt that because they were somewhere Lupa has only been a few times. 

Two weeks ago, I moved my dog into my apartment. My roommate also has a dog aggressive dog (chessapeake bay). I put the other dog in a room and let Lupa sniff her new home and let her into the yard to run. I put her in a room and let the other dog come and smell her scent on the furniture. Later, my roommate's boyfriend and I let the dogs meet through a chain link fence and took the dogs for a walk and they ignored each other. We eventually had them in the den together. The chesapeake would get over excited, but he was corrected and I tried to keep Lupa from being an over-exuberantly sniffing nuissance. She would look very interested in him, but her hackles were raised. She never tried anything funny. A week later, we had them in yard together to test things, but the boy got overly playful and rowdy and tried to chase Lupa, who would snarl and snap at him. I really think she doesn't know how to play with a dog her own size. She would lay on the floor and bat my parents' dachsund around with her muzzle and they would bite and chase each other. 

Last week, my roommate and I went to her friends house. I had never been there before and had Lupa on a roll leather collar. There were 4 dogs there. I let Lupa greet the other dogs and evertually let her off leash. The only issue was that the smallest dog decided she didn't like Lupa and tried to bite her, but Lupa didn't retaliate more than what was due. Since then, she has met two off leash dogs while we were on walks. I think she is fear reactive as well becuase she is interested in the dogs and wagging her tail, but she has her hackles raised, meaning she feels threatened. I have taken her to pet stores with no issue. 

Things I've found helpful (this isn't meant to be professional advice, it's just what has seemed to work for me):
1) Prong collars on walks. This may not work for you and I ONLY use it on walks. 

2) Reestablishing basics. A breif training demo immediately before letting her greet a dog helps me build confidence in my ability to control her, calms us both down and gets us on the same page. 

3) Location. Lupa is territorial and I've found that letting her meet dogs on their territory rather than neutral ground makes her less aggressive. Of course, you still have to worry about the other dog.

4) RUN! Training at home and everywhere is very helpful when trying to get your dog to pay attention to you and not get distracted, but no matter where you are in this training, you are going to run into other dogs. Lupa hasn't had to follow orders, unless I was around, for 4 years. I had to find a way to get her attention without the long-term training I couldn't maintain. I still worked with her on my brief visits to my parents'. I found that running past dogs was a great distraction; as soon as she reacts to seeing another leashed or fenced in dog, I run her a few yards. 

5) I am convinced the "alpha roll" works...sort of. I don't recommend it unless absolutely necessary. There are too many problems with it and better methods exist. My hypothesis is that, even if it proves to the dog you're in charge, it doesn't really address the root of the problem. Timing is also important. I did this to Lupa many times and she always fought me to get up. I finally got the timing right (she calmed down immediately) and it cut her reactivity by more than half. I can't really argue with the results, but I wish I had known a better way at the time. 

6) Barrier greetings. Meeting through a chain link fence is a great way for dogs to get close without being able to harm each other. 

7) Room changes. I have no clue how effective letting one dog sniff the other via furniture and carpet and pee in the yard before they met really worked, but I couldn't think of anything else and it's not like they won't figure out another dog is around. 

8) The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. 

9) My roommate told me something interesting. She said she used to take her dog to the park and everything was fine until a dog growled at him and he hasn't been dog-friendly since. She tried giving him treats when other dogs were around for some positive association, but that was actually making the issue worse because he was then getting food aggressive toward the dogs! 

I hope that helps! I am really a novice dog owner, but I think I've learned a lot and I would like to help people in similar situations. I by no means claim to have the best behaved dog (not that she's ill-behaved) and I don't think she'll ever be able to go to a dog park, but it's nice to know there's hope she can be around other dogs. She needs a lot training to make up for lost time. We've made a lot of progress and I'm still learning how to interpret her body language as her reactions change.


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## jayd215 (Dec 23, 2010)

*some things on positive reinforcement*



bastian said:


> I hadn't considered that negative reinforcement might actually escalate his already bad behavior around other dogs. I was told that I should correct him when he begins to focus on another dog and starts whining, but I did notice that whenever I did try and correct him for whining/staring, it triggered a worse reaction like barking/lunging but when I try to distract him with treats or something he just ignores it, and often ignores me, so I don't know how I would try positive reinforcement around another dog. He can be calm but it is very rare but I guess that's where sub-threshold would come into play? As well as taking advantage of his "calm" moments.


my dog also reacts more negatively with negative reinforcement. also, watch out for creating tension on the leash, as that can make the dog think you're asking it to protect you. i still do this subconsciously without intending to; always backfires. she barks and lunges even harder.

on the treats, if you go this route you probably have to start with high-value treats. with ivy, i use hot dogs, cheese, lunchmeat and meatballs -- things that are really juicy, flavorful and smelly. one of the easiest things to do with treats is, when your dog starts reacting, toss the treat a couple of feet in front of him and tell him to 'find it.' (work on your 'find' command at home first if he doesn't have it down.) use tossing the treats to keep him moving forward and to guide him away from the other dog.

there are some other things you can do with treats, too -- ask him to focus on you, give him a simple on-leash command like touching his nose to your hand to get a treat (distraction technique), body block him from the other dog and then give the treat for focusing on you, reward for 'leave it,' etc. this book and DVD has some good tips: Amazon.com: Reactive Rover (9780578033792): Kim Moeller: Books.



bastian said:


> I had considered using a gentle leader but I was unsure of whether or not it would hold when he pulled/tried to run towards another dog. I used to use a harness until he Houdini'd his way out of it during a group training session, and the trainer recommended I try a nylon pinch collar (the one without the prongs, I think that's what they're called?) and that is what I am using now. He can put up a pretty good fight sometimes in trying to get to something that he really wants, in most cases another dog and/or a cat. Would a gentle leader work well enough to keep him from escaping?


no one ever agrees on training collars. it's definitely a personal thing. if your dog's a houdini, i don't recommend the halti. my dog can shimmy out of them. the gentle leader is pretty strong, and it inhibits her ability to bite. i like to back it up with a prongless slip collar. i attach the leash to both the gentle leader and the slip collar. i do it in a way that doesn't let the slip collar really slip (because i don't want her to associate the pain of a slip collar with other dogs - i want her associations with other dogs to be positive). that way i feel secure with the gentle leader. another perk of this is that the gentle leader doesn't become as much of a crutch for issues like pulling. i've been teaching ivy loose leash walking, and she'll do it equally well without the gentle leader.



bastian said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience Jay, it's very helpful and gives me hope that I could get somewhere with Sebastian eventually. I know it can take a while but sometimes it just seems impossible!


absolutely! you will find an approach that works for you and get good results, if you're persistent. if this helps at all, when i was teaching ivy loose leash walking, for weeks and weeks she just kept pulling and ignoring me when i tried to call her back. then one day she suddenly just started doing what i was asking and has been doing it ever since. i see similar things in her responses to other dogs. not every dog learns the same way, but persistence is always the key. whatever your dog's style, if you pick something that feels doable and seems to get some kind of response, stick to it and you'll make progress.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> First, if your trainer isn't meeting your needs, find a new trainer but you already knew that.
> 
> Second, you went way too fast too soon. While he did well that one day with that one day, I would never have put him in with 25 dogs! Stay out of the dog park and go back to walking outside it. Most adult GSDs don't do well at dog parks and contrary to popular belief, dogs do not need to play with other dogs. Also, the off leash interactions could be making his on leash frustration worse.
> 
> ...


 
Hi GSDR

was interested to read you r comment re " most adult GSD dont do well at parks" can you expand a little about that to get a better understanding,


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 31, 2010)

I have not read all the responses but here is my "experience". I started in an obedience class where the trainer would not let my gsd -- 5 months old then -- come into the training ring because the dog barked. Greta and I would walk around from a distance. Greta was not getting better even though I used treats when we could get closer from time to time. So I asked on this forum and someone kindly told me about another trainer. This new trainer was very sympathetic and knowledgable about GSD's. So she put us behind a temporary screen that I could see over. By the end of the six weeks, Greta could approach the other dogs without barking and could line up with them and do simple agility tasks. The last day of class she actually played with two of the other dogs. Huge difference. We begin a follow up course in a few weeks. I hope you can find someone like this trainer. 

I also had a friend with a dog meet me for play dates. Some of these were on lead in her neighborhood and some off lead here at the farm. At first on lead Greta and I had to follow at some distance but within that first hour we were walking side by side with the friend and her dog. This was going on at the time I was attending the second training class. So these two things -- the good training class and the controlled socialization -- really helped my dog. Good luck. Susan


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

On the alpha roll.

Yes, many years ago, (early 80s) I did that with a good dog who was too full of himself and it looked impressive but it never really had a lasting impact..and he was a good dog who "took it" and and forgave us. My husband followed suit with an ESS we had and still has the scars to show what can happen if the dog does NOT have the right temperament.

I think even the Monks of New Skete who made the darned thing popular confessed of their sins and have begged forgiveness for that approach.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

An approach like the alpha roll can work sometimes. I had a german import puppy out of the dog who won the protection event at the German Seiger show one year so you imagine this dogs temperament. in fact at 9 months he was the top performing dog in a local Sch club and had the kind of hard dominant temperament that one would expect of a dog who could do that. never backed down from a thing even as a puppy.

Anyway about 9 mo he was laying in the hallway chewing a bone that I had given to him, I reached for it as we were going out and I didn't want him chewing it as we went out. I guess that it was very tasty and the boy was starting to feel grown up and he didn't have to let me take it. So he didn't let go and actually growled at me! Unfortunately my wife was aloso watching this little adventure. I didn't see her however at the time. I grabbed him by the scruff of his furry neck and shook it as I told him "NO" in my most dominant manner! He fortunately then saw the error of his ways and let go of the bone and looked a little submissive. He never ever growled at me again and I and my wife and anybody that he was familar with could easily take toys and bones away from him.

Not an alpha roll but a similar thing - and it is true that it could have turned out different for sure. I didn't even think then, just reacted to the growl. And wouldn't recommend a similar action unless one is willing to think about what happens if the dog reacts to what you do. But you also can not afford to let him see you back away if he growls either.


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

Sorry if this is a little long - I've been really busy with school so I haven't had the time to really formulate a response for everyone's responses.

When doing the alpha roll I'm more worried about him being hurt than myself. He twists and contorts to fight it. And when it takes both the trainer and I to roll him over safely it just doesn't seem to work for him. I can have him down on the floor completely relaxed after the alpha roll but he will stay completely focused on the dog he was barking at, and the moment I let him up, he goes right back to it.

I've been lucky so far in that he's never shown any aggression towards me at all, even during the alpha rolls. He has also not shown anything even remotely aggressive towards people in general. He loves people. I don't know how to explain it. It's like he can be focused on another dog and barking and growling and he can turn around for a second look at me or another person and his ears will go down and he'll wag his tail and look really excited before he turns back around to continue barking at the other dog. He's really very sweet and gentle except when it comes to another dog..

There are a few training courses I've come across in my area for reactive dogs but unfortunately I will have to wait until summer to be able to start them because they conflict with my current class schedule, but I have ordered a couple of the books you guys have recommended to me and hopefully they will be here soon! I think I will go to a private trainer first since we have tried group training and I think right now I really need help in being able to gain control over certain situations and know when to react and how, before I can try another group class, though at the same time he does very well one on one so I don't know if we would be getting to the root of the problem by going the private trainer route first. I'm still a little confused when it comes to this.

I'm just starting to work with focus training. He has a very difficult time focusing on me when he sees another dog. In the area that I live in there are a lot of dogs who are fenced behind wooden fences so we can't see them but Sebastian can definitely hear them. He's doing very well just walking by them, thought he does get distracted by the barking, he can turn his focus back onto me, but I think it's because he can't actually see the dog? I still have to try it near fences that you can actually see the dog through to really get a feel for his sub-threshold and create a bigger distraction instead of just the sounds of dogs behind fences.

I will probably have to begin using higher value treats as well. "Find it" sounds like a very good command to get him distracted, so I will have to start working on teaching him that. I have tried doing "Watch me" but it just doesn't seem to catch on with him. He focuses on my hands more than he does on me if I am trying to distract him with a treat, and my hands don't seem to be enough to truly distract him from another dog.

I'm still learning how to read his body language, but as I mentioned, he has reacted badly to negative reinforcement so I will have to instead change that to catching his attention and using positive reinforcement instead. He has his last group class today so we will see how it goes.

ilivenanigloo - Thank you for sharing your experiences as well. I can definitely understand where you're coming from and I really appreciate the input. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way as well, so many I don't think I can even count them all. At this point I can't blame my dog for acting the way he does. I wasn't a leader to him for a very long time, and I badly handled a lot of situations with him that could've gone A LOT differently. I think a lot of behavior now has to do with the fact that for a very long time he had to try and make up for what I was lacking when it comes to having a pack.

I also haven't mentioned this before because it didn't seem necessary and I don't know if it's important to know, but I do have two very tiny pomeranians. Sebastian and my pomeranians get a lot very well. I had them long before I had Sebastian so he was raised with them as a pup. He's learned to be around them without competely trampling them, which took a lot of work, and of course, getting him fixed, but there has been some food aggression (mostly stemming from the pomerianians, and now that Sebastian is big enough to react to that, I feed them separately). They do spend time together but since my pomeranians are older, one is ten and the other is eight, I try to keep them separate because Sebastian can get a little to playful and his size is just too much for my poms to handle. Could this have any affect on what I'm currently trying to teach Sebastian and his training?

Also - I've heard and read quite a bit about clicker training when it comes to reinforcing good behavior. Any input on this?


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

I posted this in another thread, but i'll drop it here too.

Bismarck was very leash reactive when i first got him. he looked like he wanted to eat the other dog, barking, lunging, froth flying willy nilly.
at first, it kinda scared me.
but i knew he wouldn't get better on his own.

i did a lot of research, asking questions etc..
once i got my plan in place, i would have to go out of my way to look for people walking their dogs, so i could work with biz.

he is no longer leash reactive, meets dogs nicely, the correct way (nose to butt), and he is now a teacher.
i am fostering fearful dogs now, one was a 125lb gsd scared beyond belief. he has since been adopted, and loves people contact, as well as dog interactions.
it can be done, but it will take time.
you've been given a lot of awesome advice, whatever route you take, both bismarck and i wish you the best !
just remember, YOU are the pack leader, so it's up to you to remain calm and assertive. no fear, no tense, just calm and breath.
you can do it.


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## Nevaeh's Mom (Jan 19, 2011)

thanks Bizmarcks dad for the hope and encouragement - I think all of us will do whatever it takes when we love our dogs, as long as we know there is hope for these fear reactive dogs..would love to hear what you do when "fostering" these fearful GSD's..


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## bastian (Mar 26, 2011)

I second what Nevaeh's Mom said, thanks so much for the kind words. Sebastian is a lot how Bismark used to be. When Sebastian first started getting really reactive, I assumed he was a crazy cannibal (I feel bad for feeling that way now, I realize that he couldn't and can't help it without proper guidance which is up to me). But I'll do whatever it takes to help him.

He's slowly getting better but I know it's going to take a while. It's amazing that Bismark is a teacher now and it's great to hear that he did so well, it really gives me hope, as Nevaeh's Mom said.

And it's amazing that you're now fostering fearful dogs and helping them find great homes. It's a wonderful thing!


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

i don't do anything.
biz does it all. 

above everything else, you can't "coddle" them when they're frightened. you never want to say, ahh poor so and so, it's ok."
that gives them the understanding that it's ok to feel that way, frightened.
some people may like ceasar milan, some may not. what i do like is his verbal sound for something that's wrong. 
i like the sound part, and no words, so either tsssss, or aaahhh or whatever sound you want to make, just be consistent with it in everything you do, from training to counter surfers to whatever the dog does wrong.
this way they get used to hearing that sound, and know what they're doing is wrong, and they need to do the right thing. this will work it's way over to the fear, and they'll understand that feeling fearful is wrong.
but it was mostly biz doing the work, i won't lie.
the only thing i've found that he doesn't like is his nails being done, but we're slowly working on that.


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