# Bark and hold... or just the hold for my dog



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

So his bark and hold was going great... he doesn't get dirty, settles right in, but recently started not barking, just silently snapping his jaws. We thought he was getting too winded or hot (has gotten pretty warm the past month), but this past week I started testing it while he was fresh, not heated up, and with plenty of energy with his ball... same thing... Now, given the command to bark, he does the silent snappy jaws... he used to bark consistently. I believe, in teaching him to not bark while in my car at the dogs doing bitework on training days, I've somehow taught him to just not bark at all and he picked up this silent snappy jaw thing... so we're working again on getting consistent barks on the bark command, and hopefully this will translate back onto the bark and hold. Anyone ever experience this or have any "magic tricks" for correcting it?

I'll upload a video of this if its of any help


----------



## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Wish I could help, but I've only had the "other" problem with too much barking. Good luck. I'm sure someone here will have some help for you.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Would be interesting to see the video. My first thought is that he is in the wrong drive, the wrong frame of mind.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

My dog loses his bark as soon as he starts getting too warm.


----------



## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Is he getting a bite for snapping his jaws? If so the snap is being rewarded. Get him out fresh and wait him out. Give him the sleeve on the first bark, and start reinforcing that only. I've not had that problem but seen it and after a couple sessions it was fixed.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is it like this?


----------



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I saw a dog doing that at training the other week. All you could hear was the teeth hitting each other. Sounded like he had an iron jaw! :-/ CREEPY! LOL!


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Freddy said:


> Is he getting a bite for snapping his jaws? If so the snap is being rewarded. Get him out fresh and wait him out. Give him the sleeve on the first bark, and start reinforcing that only. I've not had that problem but seen it and after a couple sessions it was fixed.


Nah if he starts doing it, we'll grind it out for 5 minutes or so, give a bite on the first bark, and put him up on that


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Would be interesting to see the video. My first thought is that he is in the wrong drive, the wrong frame of mind.


Well the video is me testing him... Pure prey drive and totally not the level of intensity of bitework. He gets somewhat defensive in bitework


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We would need a video of him working on a helper, not barking at you for a toy.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have always been told the dog is overloading in prey when he snaps his teeth without barking....just a thought...

Lee


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Rorie snaps her teeth-I think its like she just forgot to bark- -its kind of funny


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> I have always been told the dog is overloading in prey when he snaps his teeth without barking....just a thought...
> 
> Lee


 
This was my thought...

And then you have to think about how to adjust that. For a clacker/whiner that I had I switched him off a flat collar and start working him on a prong with small pops. The stim off the prong was enough to turn on some aggression and then I got better barking. Some people will go to tables or elevated platforms. Some helpers are able to just change the way the dog perceives them to achieve the same thing. Big barks come from acknowledment of a threat and trying to control that threat.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> So his bark and hold was going great... he doesn't get dirty, settles right in, but recently started not barking, just silently snapping his jaws. We thought he was getting too winded or hot (has gotten pretty warm the past month), but this past week I started testing it while he was fresh, not heated up, and with plenty of energy with his ball... same thing... Now, given the command to bark, he does the silent snappy jaws... he used to bark consistently. I believe, in teaching him to not bark while in my car at the dogs doing bitework on training days, I've somehow taught him to just not bark at all and he picked up this silent snappy jaw thing... so we're working again on getting consistent barks on the bark command, and hopefully this will translate back onto the bark and hold. Anyone ever experience this or have any "magic tricks" for correcting it?
> 
> I'll upload a video of this if its of any help



From other post you have written I think you have a prey focused dog. When you train a dog like that you can pretty much count on barking problems. 

One thing that your dog might be missing is the belief that his bark controls the helper. One way to teach this is to have the helper run away when the dog is barking good, while the handler holds the dog back on a line, give the search command and excites/encourages the dog. When the helper is 10 yards away let the dog start to drag the handler SLOWLY to the helper. The helper runs away while your dog chases him with you dragging. The helper runs in back of a tree, car, shed or whatever. He then peeks out very slightly and agitates the dog. When the dog barks a few times IN A RHYTHMthe helper runs away to another hiding place. Do this a few times and put the dog away. Do not give the dog a bite!!!!

After some (7-10) sessions of this when the helper peeks his head around from the hiding place, the dog should bark without agitation from the helper. When the dog is doing that the helper should stop hiding his whole body and allow the dog to see a bit of his body. DON'T LET THE DOG SEE THE SLEEVE! If the dog barks good the helper runs again and you drag slowly. Do some sessions like this for a while.

The next step is for the helper to run and stand in front of one of the hiding places. If the dog can bark correctly for about 15 seconds, with the helper fully exposed the helper should queue the dog to bite. When the dog bites give a short bit of a fight and let the dog take the sleeve off of the field with him.


----------



## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm with everyone else who has said that the dog is in high prey.
The helper needs to challenge the dog in defense and give the dog a reason to bark.


----------



## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

If he as gone from barking to not barking its nothing more than a game to him....thats all. Thats the problem when people train just for trial routines and dont train each component of the trial for what it is supposed to be. 

A dog will bark out of frustration for the toy, through aggression or defense. When some peoples doggy is barking for the toy it is nice, deep and loud....other dogs have two distictive barks...which forces you to train the dog properly. 

It may be tough to fix because you are going to have to change the way your dog pecieves the protection work in his head.

You have heard of a balanced dog right? Well, some dogs are one way or the other....if you are lucky you get one in the middle....we may slip up in training and take the dog to far to one side. It is always a "balancing act"


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My dog has an issue with the bark and hold, not locking in prey b/c my dog is on the defense side but something else (he got corrected with the stick one too many times and sometimes will guard too far to the stick side or sort of shift back and forth as he's guarding), so I don't know if this would get a dog locked in prey to bark but....If I send him in and he's not guarding correctly, I pick up his line and pull it tight, pull him back a bit, then the helper agitates him for like 2 seconds, scoots back into the blind, and I allow the dog to move forward as the helper scoots back in. That generally "tightens up" and centers his guarding, plus maintains good barking. He always works on a pinch collar (live ring) so I can stimulate him if I need to but as I said, he's over on the defense side of the spectrum so that generally is not needed but could also be something to try w/ your dog.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> This was my thought...
> 
> And then you have to think about how to adjust that. For a clacker/whiner that I had I switched him off a flat collar and start working him on a prong with small pops. The stim off the prong was enough to turn on some aggression and then I got better barking. Some people will go to tables or elevated platforms. Some helpers are able to just change the way the dog perceives them to achieve the same thing. Big barks come from acknowledment of a threat and trying to control that threat.


He only recently developed the teeth clacking... never happened, not even once, before about ~1 month ago. We are already on a prong with him. Our helper is very good with being/not being threatening to the dog. 

My honest belief is somehow, and I haven't pinpointed how, he has learned that hopping on the front feet, and snapping jaws silently in front of the helper is the correct response to the "revier' command... which is odd as he has *never* been rewarded for that. Having trouble figuring out how this happened. 2 months ago, the command to bark was rock solid. the last week, the bark command has only gotten the snappy jaws as well, though I think I've got the wires connected again with him, or atleast started to, that he *must* bark. That is about 75% of our focus right now


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> From other post you have written I think you have a prey focused dog. When you train a dog like that you can pretty much count on barking problems.
> 
> One thing that your dog might be missing is the belief that his bark controls the helper. One way to teach this is to have the helper run away when the dog is barking good, while the handler holds the dog back on a line, give the search command and excites/encourages the dog. When the helper is 10 yards away let the dog start to drag the handler SLOWLY to the helper. The helper runs away while your dog chases him with you dragging. The helper runs in back of a tree, car, shed or whatever. He then peeks out very slightly and agitates the dog. When the dog barks a few times IN A RHYTHMthe helper runs away to another hiding place. Do this a few times and put the dog away. Do not give the dog a bite!!!!
> 
> ...


He is an extremely focused dog.

We've always had the helper approach on a bark, and "slink" away slowly and uneventfully when he went silent, or whip,whip,whip and fire him up out of reach.

What did work lastnight, is heeling right up into the bark and hold position silently, sending him in to the bark and hold, stopping for a silent sit for a few seconds or so, and then resuming the bark and hold, then a bite. His bark and holds were **** near perfect while doing this.

We may try what you suggested tomorrow. We will also be training with an extremely skilled guy and hopefully he can offer some insight.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> My honest belief is somehow, and I haven't pinpointed how, he has learned that hopping on the front feet, and snapping jaws silently in front of the helper is the correct response to the "revier' command... which is odd as he has *never* been rewarded for that.


I don't think the dog even know how he is barking to make a "decision" of how to bark in order to get a reward or not. I am with the others who think that the tone, rhythm and other factors that affect the bark are only expression of the mind frame the dog is at that moment. While an overly excited dog can't get a deep, rhythmic woof-woof-woof; a calmer dog demanding something to the helper can't give a pitched, yappy bark. Dogs are just horrible actors and worst liars... they express what they feel.

Diabla barks with no problem to others, but when I ask her to bark she does the jaws clapping thing. I think it is the pressure of barking to the Boss what causes it. I just joke saying she is a stutterer.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Dogs need a reason to bark. And the tone of the bark very much depends on that reason. I don't think it likely that somehow the dog learned that clacking and hopping was desireable and earned reward. I think he simply does have a *reason* to bark. He is not in the right drive.



hunterisgreat said:


> We've always had the helper approach on a bark, and "slink" away slowly and uneventfully when he went silent, or whip,whip,whip and fire him up out of reach.


That might be a big part of the problem right there. That "whip, whip, whip" doesn't tend to stimulate defense or aggression as many people seem to assume. 99 times out of 100 it stimulates prey. Fast moving, energetic, noisy = Prey. And all of that can easily overload a dog in prey, which sure seems to be the case here.

I would for a while move to the sort of program Fast recommended. The dog needs to be brought into the right drive, rewarded for that drive with the reward that drive strives for = dominating and controlling the helper. Not switching to prey and giving a bite. That makes the end goal prey, and over time that is the drive the dog slides toward because it is what is being rewarded, and the rewards are prey rewards.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> I'm with everyone else who has said that the dog is in high prey.
> The helper needs to challenge the dog in defense and give the dog a reason to bark.


B/c we do a great deal of bite obedience, which involves a fair amount of prong and electric, I think there is some strong defense present right now. Last week the helper, and our backup helper both independently commented that they've noticed he's been building some "rage" the past few weeks and that I should be on guard for a serious bite. He's given me the "eye" a few times and for the first time in his life and a few times I thought a bite (on me) was imminent... so, I'm not sure that its a high prey drive thing.. I think he's working mostly in prey, but his defense comes on fast and strong so perhaps I just need to have him more pressured.

Once the bite-obedience is done though and he's just in a helper-dog interaction, I think he is swinging much more into prey... maybe I'll have the helper really pressure him tomorrow and see what happens.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> I don't think the dog even know how he is barking to make a "decision" of how to bark in order to get a reward or not. I am with the others who think that the tone, rhythm and other factors that affect the bark are only expression of the mind frame the dog is at that moment. While an overly excited dog can't get a deep, rhythmic woof-woof-woof; a calmer dog demanding something to the helper can't give a pitched, yappy bark. Dogs are just horrible actors and worst liars... they express what they feel.
> 
> Diabla barks with no problem to others, but when I ask her to bark she does the jaws clapping thing. I think it is the pressure of barking to the Boss what causes it. I just joke saying she is a stutterer.


His barks are very very rhythmic initially, and the only time he yippy barks is for food. He's very serious about bitework. His jaw snaps are exactly the same as the normal bark and hold he does initially, its just that there is no sound coming out. I think that once the initial frustration of coming on the field and not getting to get retarded is relieved after a few bites, thats when the bark out of frustration stops and he reverts to this silent crap


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Dogs need a reason to bark. And the tone of the bark very much depends on that reason. I don't think it likely that somehow the dog learned that clacking and hopping was desireable and earned reward. I think he simply does have a *reason* to bark. He is not in the right drive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think it might be the presence of the sleeve that is triggering the over-prey drive? Should we do something with the sleeve out of the picture? Never done muzzle work, but I have one if thats the appropriate tool. I think I may have a two part problem... number one is to him, the command to bark when we are just playing around the house or whatever gets the clacky thing. A month ago it was a consistent bark. The other part I think his the too much in prey on the field with the helper

Initially we thought he was getting winded fast b/c he would bark good (again, knowing his defensive bark and his prey bark are very different sounding, he is barking in prey), and then go silent. I only realized this wasn't the case after getting the same behavior fresh in the morning every day the past few weeks (plus I've been swimming and running the dog to death so theres no reason for him to exhaust quickly)


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

How is your helper rewarding the barking? I don't mean count a certain number of barks then give a bite, which seems to be what many do. But is he reacting to the barking itself? Is he changing his body posture and tension? Flinching? Anything that shows that the bark is having an effect on him? Or is he standing like a statue and then after a while presenting the sleeve. That can make a huge difference if the helper shows the dog that the bark itself has an effect, not just something he has to do for a while to earn a reward. And it can build very strong barking as the dog realizes that each bark itself is rewarded with reaction from the helper. It doesn't have to be a strong reaction, and for this dog it shouldn't be a prey type reaction, but rather quite subtle with the helper allowing the dog to overpower him with his bark, not just through biting.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> How is your helper rewarding the barking? I don't mean count a certain number of barks then give a bite, which seems to be what many do. But is he reacting to the barking itself? Is he changing his body posture and tension? Flinching? Anything that shows that the bark is having an effect on him? Or is he standing like a statue and then after a while presenting the sleeve. That can make a huge difference if the helper shows the dog that the bark itself has an effect, not just something he has to do for a while to earn a reward. And it can build very strong barking as the dog realizes that each bark itself is rewarded with reaction from the helper. It doesn't have to be a strong reaction, and for this dog it shouldn't be a prey type reaction, but rather quite subtle with the helper allowing the dog to overpower him with his bark, not just through biting.


Well, generally our helper does do this with many dogs particularly the shy ones, but I don't *think* (stress, don't think) he's been doing this with my male lately as I'm concentrating more on the dog and havent noticed. Perhaps I will ask him to do that tomorrow with him. 

Everyone (at the club) seems to have a perception that my dog is big and bad b/c he's a pretty broad chested dog and has a really penetrating stare and a much deeper bark than any other dog at the club. I think the deeper bark makes people think he's in defense when he's really in prey. I know what the two barks sound like and can distinguish between the two, but I've noticed that many people are kinda intimidated by him when in my opinion they shouldn't be. I'm more concerned about getting bit or having someone get bit by my female than him. 

The more I think about it, the more I think once he goes in it's all prey. Its actually not hard at all to put him in defense when there is not anything made of jute anywhere nearby. Much to my chagrin, the dog has learned very well that all he needs to do is stare and growl or bark (in defense) to make anyone give him a wide berth.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Why would only a dog who is shy need to have his bark rewarded? That makes no sense. If you want strong barking, then you have to reward strong barking. And that means more than just counting to 30 and giving a bite.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Why would only a dog who is shy need to have his bark rewarded? That makes no sense. If you want strong barking, then you have to reward strong barking. And that means more than just counting to 30 and giving a bite.


Not saying he only does that with shy dogs. I just have noticed it a bunch with the dogs that are a little less sure of themselves. Of course, the dogs that are barking strong all the time get reinforcement here and there, but often the training focus is elsewhere

I just meant that I think perhaps there was an assumption that my dogs barking was strong "enough" or that it was a defensive bark, when really it is just a prey bark and mediocre for what he is capable of. His prey bark sounds pretty strong to most people, but his defensive bark is a whole different ballgame.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> His barks are very very rhythmic initially, and the only time he yippy barks is for food. He's very serious about bitework. His jaw snaps are exactly the same as the normal bark and hold he does initially, its just that there is no sound coming out. I think that once the initial frustration of coming on the field and not getting to get retarded is relieved after a few bites, thats when the bark out of frustration stops and he reverts to this silent crap


I don't say that your dog's bark is yappy, I put it as an example of how a dog that is feeling calm and strong can't give a pitched bark because he has learnt that that tone of barking gives a reward. He can only feels anxious and then became yappy, because he believes anxiety is what is linked to the reward.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> I don't say that your dog's bark is yappy, I put it as an example of how a dog that is feeling calm and strong can't give a pitched bark because he has learnt that that tone of barking gives a reward. He can only feels anxious and then became yappy, because he believes anxiety is what is linked to the reward.


I was just explaining more.. wasn't saying thats what you meant. The issue is that I don't know why he has linked this silent snappy jaw thing to bitework and the bark command. A month ago was the first time I ever heard his jaws snap when they shut. My female, by comparison, has had snappy jaws since 8 weeks old when I got her. Her's is just a byproduct of her driveyness or her jaw mechanics, where as his is very recently developed and a product of behavior that I've somehow modified into what it is. I'm frustrated more at not knowing *why* this has happened than the prospect of correcting it. The latter just takes time and the correct medicine. Not knowing the former dooms me to repeat it some day down the road


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> How is your helper rewarding the barking? I don't mean count a certain number of barks then give a bite, which seems to be what many do. But is he reacting to the barking itself? Is he changing his body posture and tension? Flinching? Anything that shows that the bark is having an effect on him? Or is he standing like a statue and then after a while presenting the sleeve. That can make a huge difference if the helper shows the dog that the bark itself has an effect, not just something he has to do for a while to earn a reward. And it can build very strong barking as the dog realizes that each bark itself is rewarded with reaction from the helper. It doesn't have to be a strong reaction, and for this dog it shouldn't be a prey type reaction, but rather quite subtle with the helper allowing the dog to overpower him with his bark, not just through biting.


:thumbup:


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> :thumbup:


Rewarding the bark more "dramatically" is definitely something I will ask for moving forward. Besides just that, should I be trying to get more defense out of him while doing bitework, and if so what would you suggest?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> B/c we do a great deal of bite obedience, which involves a fair amount of prong and electric, I think there is some strong defense present right now. Last week the helper, and our backup helper both independently commented that they've noticed he's been building some "rage" the past few weeks and that I should be on guard for a serious bite. He's given me the "eye" a few times and for the first time in his life and a few times I thought a bite (on me) was imminent... so, I'm not sure that its a high prey drive thing.. I think he's working mostly in prey, but his defense comes on fast and strong so perhaps I just need to have him more pressured.
> 
> Once the bite-obedience is done though and he's just in a helper-dog interaction, I think he is swinging much more into prey... maybe I'll have the helper really pressure him tomorrow and see what happens.


You can also consider what you said in the first sentence. Lots of compulsion can have effects in areas where you are not doing any. Lots of people struggle with that theory. They think they can overpower their dog with electric and prongs and then expect the dog to break out of that elsewhere. They also think that just because the dog is thinking about biting the handler, the compulsion is having no impact on the dog or they think that is a good thing. That reaction is only appropriate if the dog is channeling the compulsion into aggression toward the HELPER, not the handler. If he is thinking about biting YOU, he is disturbed by the compulsion. People can have big impacts on their dog and not see it. It is not always the helper but it could be a combination of both of you.

Movement, even small flinches can become prey attractions as well and lead to the dog not barking. But leaving that alone for a minute, what I am reading from you is that the helper does LOTS of this and LOTS of that and THAT could be a problem in itself. Defense work is subtle and done in a more mental way by the helper. It is a posture and a way of thinking that the helper does, not big displays of snarling at the dog or hitting him with the whip etc. It is not about pain, it is a done in a way that disturbs the dog where he becomes a bit unsure for a moment. When the helper does "lots of this and lots of that", what happens most of the time is the dog becomes reactive where he constantly needs to see all that from the helper. Without it, he will not load to the right drive level. The helper in the trial won't be doing that. The idea is to have the dog bark at a still helper. Being more still and tense has a way of bringing up aggression in the dogs much more than flinching.
When the dog becomes more, the helper must become a little less and that too is done in the helper' head, what he or she is thinking. When you think it, your body will show it and the dogs can see it. It never has to be big displays, the dogs can see the tiniest reactions because body language IS their language. Unfortunately, and especially with strong powerful dogs, the dog becomes more and then the helper answers with more. Again, this makes the dog reactive and also makes him feel weak, for the lack of a better way to put it.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> You can also consider what you said in the first sentence. Lots of compulsion can have effects in areas where you are not doing any. Lots of people struggle with that theory. They think they can overpower their dog with electric and prongs and then expect the dog to break out of that elsewhere. They also think that just because the dog is thinking about biting the handler, the compulsion is having no impact on the dog or they think that is a good thing. That reaction is only appropriate if the dog is channeling the compulsion into aggression toward the HELPER, not the handler. If he is thinking about biting YOU, he is disturbed by the compulsion. People can have big impacts on their dog and not see it. It is not always the helper but it could be a combination of both of you.
> 
> Movement, even small flinches can become prey attractions as well and lead to the dog not barking. But leaving that alone for a minute, what I am reading from you is that the helper does LOTS of this and LOTS of that and THAT could be a problem in itself. Defense work is subtle and done in a more mental way by the helper. It is a posture and a way of thinking that the helper does, not big displays of snarling at the dog or hitting him with the whip etc. It is not about pain, it is a done in a way that disturbs the dog where he becomes a bit unsure for a moment. When the helper does "lots of this and lots of that", what happens most of the time is the dog becomes reactive where he constantly needs to see all that from the helper. Without it, he will not load to the right drive level. The helper in the trial won't be doing that. The idea is to have the dog bark at a still helper. Being more still and tense has a way of bringing up aggression in the dogs much more than flinching.
> When the dog becomes more, the helper must become a little less and that too is done in the helper' head, what he or she is thinking. When you think it, your body will show it and the dogs can see it. It never has to be big displays, the dogs can see the tiniest reactions because body language IS their language. Unfortunately, and especially with strong powerful dogs, the dog becomes more and then the helper answers with more. Again, this makes the dog reactive and also makes him feel weak, for the lack of a better way to put it.


Just so I say this up front.. everyone must take what I say with a grain or two of salt as I'm fairly new to the nuances of protection work.... I'm merely calling them as I see them (thats all I can do).

That being said, the snappy crap preceded the bite obedience. We starting doing real obedience during bitework in the last few weeks or so. I'm not one of the types that strings the dog up or gets crazy with the compulsion. I've seen a lot of this and the resulting problems. I stay calm and collected, quick pops with a properly fitted collar or the lowest stim that is noticed per the Lou Castle & Dobbs methods, to the letter. Just in introducing the obedience during bitework has made him particularly pissed off he can't rush in bite on his terms. I think this is largely behind us (at least for the moment . (sigh.. have to repeat this now with the female)

I can say that I believe the helper is being perfectly still when we are doing the bark and hold, and occasionally asking for a bark from him. 

I'm just starting down the road of learning to be a helper so hopefully I can speak more knowledgeably about the subject soon... I'm now going to be training weekly with a world team competitor in order to be a helper along with our primary club helper from here on out.

So the question remains, is there anything else I should be having the helper do beyond Fast's protocol in order to "fix" this prey induced snappy thing?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, whatever you do, don't tell your helper you asked for advice on a forum. 

I understand you are new, just throwing things out for you to look at. Some dogs are sensitive without appearing to be. So, you have to watch how your dog reacts when you are right there, when you are away from him, when you approach and how he does things after corrections.

One of my dogs was sitting sideways in the blind. It was a problem with drive where he was not enough in drive and therefore, I became a bigger attraction than the helper. He was sitting sideways so he could pay attention to me and the helper at the same time. I worked with a better helper and problem was solved. Almost all problems in bitework are related to drive, usually the dog is not enough in drive. The helper gets the dog there and then the handler does something that takes it away. Hence my comments about obedience in protection. If you are having those problems, I wonder why you are continuing with the obedience.

Also, even low level stim with an e-collar can take the dogs out of drive. I have a video somewhere of a Rottie I was working. The handler wanted to out the dog using an e-collar. Before he wanted to do this he was using a pinch. With the pinch, the dog outted and barked immediately. With the e-collar, the dog would out and sit silent . I told him to use the pinch, bark came right back. So, you might consider where you use the e-collar in your training. I have seen what I just talked about in more than one dog. The e-collar , even on low stim, gets inside the dog more than a pinch does. Works great for the letting go part of the out and for compliance in obedience but seems to impact the barking on some dogs.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Well, whatever you do, don't tell your helper you asked for advice on a forum.
> 
> I understand you are new, just throwing things out for you to look at. Some dogs are sensitive without appearing to be. So, you have to watch how your dog reacts when you are right there, when you are away from him, when you approach and how he does things after corrections.
> 
> ...


Our helper is aware of my presence online as he is also online (perhaps not on this forum, but others  I seek knowledge from all possible sources and then compare/contrast/correlate and draw my own conclusions... So long as you don't take anything as gospel I think having as varied a knowledge pool as possible is very beneficial.

Typically, the e-collar comes off during bitework but I've experimented with it. My male is very tolerant of corrections. For the bark and hold, I'm using only the prong on both dogs. Haven't tried the ecollar for that yet, though I've heard of others using it with good effect

As far as drive level and how I'm involved, he never looks back at me or anything once he's sent in. Its quite an effort to get a focused look at me once we're doing bitework before sending him in. I might as well not exist. Once I send him in its all helper-dog at that point and I am usually just a silent observer at the end of the lead. Ball, sleeve, or food, he's always been extremely focused on the matter at hand.

The obedience has been coming on the field, and in between some of the bites, just so he is (hopefully) learning to have some self control between bites.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

How old is your dog?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> B/c we do a great deal of bite obedience, which involves a fair amount of prong and electric


This didn't sound like an experiment to me. So, you need to kind of clarify just how much of the e-collar you are "experimenting" with and where you have used it in protection. This sounded like you are using it a lot.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Vandal said:


> How old is your dog?


That is one question I was thinking as I was reading.

Other question - how was the barking before? Did he bark full and long at the helper before he was on the protection field?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> How old is your dog?


4 as of April 14


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> This didn't sound like an experiment to me. So, you need to kind of clarify just how much of the e-collar you are "experimenting" with and where you have used it in protection. This sounded like you are using it a lot.


I've been trying to figure out if and when the stim is more effective. Usually the out. I used it more just initially getting the obedience in for both dogs. I don't/haven't used it during the actual interaction between the helper and dog


----------



## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I would say to me it looks like you are trying a lot of different ideas all at once instead of giving time to each idea to see if it works. This alone might be creating conflict in the dog and causing a problem. Also if you have started bit obedience while this snapping is going on I would recommend backing off on the ob and go back to where he was barking and not overloading in prey. Then work slowly up from there. I agree with Fast in having your helper work this as creating more defense. After all it is easy to load a dog in prey and never get it in defense.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Usually the out. I used it more just initially getting the obedience in for both dogs. I don't/haven't used it during the actual interaction between the helper and dog


You can give a certain kind of correction in one place and have the result of that correction show up elsewhere or even in another phase of training. That is something that used to be better understood than it is nowadays. So, it doesn't have to be a case where the e-collar was used during an interaction with the helper but what you said, does make me wonder how you are using it for the out without the helper there. 

Anyway, I or anyone else posting here cannot tell you exactly what it is. You will have to look carefully and see if any of these things are the cause. Could be you are moving too fast with the training and the dog does not really understand the hold and bark, like some have already said. However, using big compulsion will have an impact on ANY dog and I will say this one more time. If people watching are waiting for the dog to bite you, you have a big "conflict". Protection is about you and your dog against the bad guy. When it becomes your dog against you, you have a problem and the problem isn't limited to the dog simply biting you, it can affect other behaviors as well.

You may have to think about that for a minute because for me, what you are saying there indicates a problem between you and your dog and it is stemming from the corrections. Yes, that can affect the bark, the bite or any number of behaviors. It may not show the same way in each dog but when people tell me their dog is not in any way affected by them, I know that is not true. They just are not seeing it ,understanding or connecting the dots. Also, the people who think that way have a tendency to overdo the compulsion because they have told themselves it is not having an impact.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> Rewarding the bark more "dramatically" is definitely something I will ask for moving forward. Besides just that, should I be trying to get more defense out of him while doing bitework, and if so what would you suggest?


I wouldn't call it defense. Defense always has a level of avoidance associated with it. I think that aggression is a better term for what I like to see. But, to answer your question....

It depends on why you're doing schutzhund. If you are doing it as a fun way to spend some time with your dog at the club and want consistent results, I would suggest you keep to the prey side of the street. 

If you really want to test your dog and you have a helper that can work well with both you and the dog, go ahead and give it a shot. Remember that when you start training the dog with high level aggression you are going to have some sessions where the dog looks like crap. You have to be prepared for that and trust your helper's skills to bring the dog through those rough patches.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

K. Trained at 2 clubs yesterday. Prey is def the issue. Thanks all for all the help. We worked him a bunch on the table as this was on technique suggested. I'm sure I'll have more questions moving forward


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Whoops. Double post


----------



## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

So why was the table recommended after all you currently have conflict with your dog and this just seems like you are adding one more piece of conflict to the equation. Don't get me wrong a table can be a good method if done right but can also create some conflict also.


----------



## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

the tables are great when there is conflict between the handler and dog. You can take the handler out of the picture. I use the table often for the problem you described at the beginning of the thread.

as long as you have an experienced helper it can work well. But, dont think it is a one shot deal and will cross over the the field completely. You should have the person doing the field work on the same page as the person doing the table work. If you take the dog back to the field and work it the same old way....it will revert back. If they are not on the same page...you are creating more problems.

I would finish the H&B on the table then on the field before I would even consider letting my dog go back into a blind for a H&B.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> We worked him a bunch on the table as this was on technique suggested. I'm sure I'll have more questions moving forward


Here I'll do it for you:

** comments removed by Admin. **


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post Mareg....I've had the same experiences.


----------



## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

G*** whip
G*** e collar
G*** prong
G*** fur saver

It doenst matter what tool you are using if the people on either side of the dog do not have a clue.....you are in trouble. I see dogs working on the field get bad or abusive training all the time. If one person on either side of the dog has a clue....you have a chance.

I see people walk onto the field with ecollars around the neck and waist, with a line coming off of the prong.....wonder where the conflict there comes from.

I have seen peopel who really havnt thought about the way to use a whip...whip the crap out of a dog on the way to in and around the blind.

I have seen people pick dogs up and slam them on the ground for mistakes.....mistakes that happen beause of the handlers lack of understanding from the beginning....the dog pays the price.

I am willing to bet that most people with more than a few years of experience have seen these things.

I agree, you dont want to jump from helper to helper. But, if you do your research and have your helper that normally does the work involved with and have a program....it may work out.

It is tough being new. You really dont understand what is going on in the protection side....People say "you cant learn to train a dog from a forum"....you reach out to living breathing people...."why the **** are you going to so many different people?...that doesnt work"

Try to underestand why you are working with a specific tool, what the goal is and what problems can be created by the tool, then make your decision. Then you have to stay consistent, consistent, consistent in the training with a program. I think Fast's earlier post was more to this point....jumping around for no reason will get you no where very quickly and you would be better off leaving the dog at home...at least it would be in the same place in training two weeks from now....not taking steps backward.

Try to make educated decisions and it will work out ok.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have never seen anyone with an e-collar on the dogs neck and waist


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Hmm not sure what happened here since my last post. Perhaps I should clarify. I know people sometimes work on a table tied out with the handler out of the picture. This is not what we were doing. Perhaps my terminology is wrong. We were working on a table that elevated the dog a half foot or so and he was lifted and put back on the table when he left the edge. 

There was no new helper involved. We have two training fields and a sister club that I went to. Everybody involved has either worked or coached us. We use almost exclusively the same helper. When he isnt the helper, its because he is being shown something by our helper coach. I was handling the dog the entire time. Worked twice, and the second time the bark and hold was much better.

Can't learn much without asking questions


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> So why was the table recommended after all you currently have conflict with your dog and this just seems like you are adding one more piece of conflict to the equation. Don't get me wrong a table can be a good method if done right but can also create some conflict also.


Do you say we have conflict bc of the agitation of doing obedience during bitework?


----------



## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

No that is not what I am saying. After reading your timeline to me it went like this. You had a dog to start snap jaws and not bark in the blind at the bark and hold. Instead of fix this problem, you went on to adding obedience to to the bite work. So you had one problem you did not fix and kept on with training the OB in bite to the point where your dog is giving you the "evil eye" as you say which is telling me that the dog first had conflict with B&H and instead of fix you only added more conflict of the OB in bitework. So I would recommend stop the OB in bite and back up and fix the B&H with correct defense work like Fast suggested a few pages back, that is how we work defense early to help the dog understand. Or even on a dog learning we often have the helper throws the sleeve to the ground and if the dog goes for it the helper moves in and quickly smacks the dog with a hand and jumps back once he has the dog focused on him again. Also if you are adding a e-collar did you first add it in OB work or wait and add in during bitework? for this itself can create problems. I also read fast post and agreed with what he wrote since from our point of view and with lack of clarity from what you posted it sounded like you were hopping around from helper to helper and not staying consistent.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I will just add one more thing to consider for you Hunter. One thing that is a consistent with most protection training is the handler forgets to praise his dog. I am sure there are any number of reasons for it but it is something I see and have seen consistently since I started in SchH. It can make a rather significant difference for the dog when you also tell him what he is doing right. I think people think the dogs like protection training, so, no need for praise. The more serious dogs need it especially but all dogs do. Of course, there is overdoing it also but mostly, I see people just forgetting that aspect completely.

Expecting helpers and gadgets to fix all of the problems never works but I have seen simple praise make a significant difference in many dogs. The handler is simply a huge part of protection training. Trying to remove them from training doesn't much solve the problem. They are going to be there in the trial. The handler has to be aware of how his dog views him and make adjustments accordingly.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> No that is not what I am saying. After reading your timeline to me it went like this. You had a dog to start snap jaws and not bark in the blind at the bark and hold. Instead of fix this problem, you went on to adding obedience to to the bite work. So you had one problem you did not fix and kept on with training the OB in bite to the point where your dog is giving you the "evil eye" as you say which is telling me that the dog first had conflict with B&H and instead of fix you only added more conflict of the OB in bitework. So I would recommend stop the OB in bite and back up and fix the B&H with correct defense work like Fast suggested a few pages back, that is how we work defense early to help the dog understand. Or even on a dog learning we often have the helper throws the sleeve to the ground and if the dog goes for it the helper moves in and quickly smacks the dog with a hand and jumps back once he has the dog focused on him again. Also if you are adding a e-collar did you first add it in OB work or wait and add in during bitework? for this itself can create problems. I also read fast post and agreed with what he wrote since from our point of view and with lack of clarity from what you posted it sounded like you were hopping around from helper to helper and not staying consistent.


Sorry about the miscommunication on my part. I can see how it implied I was bouncing between helpers. 99% of the helper work is with the same guy. The other two guys are regular faces at our club and one has his own club which I went to Saturday.

The ecollar was introduced and primarily used in OB. The bark and hold snappy thing preceded the OB during bitework, but at the time we thought it was because he was fried, not bc he was choosing to be silent. Our primary focus is fixing the bark and hold. No OB was done this past weekend, just B&H


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I will just add one more thing to consider for you Hunter. One thing that is a consistent with most protection training is the handler forgets to praise his dog. I am sure there are any number of reasons for it but it is simething I see and have seen consistently since I started in SchH. It can make a rather significant difference for the dog when you also tell him what he is doing right. I think people think the dogs like protection training, so, no need for praise. The more serious dogs need it especially but all dogs do. Of course, there is overdoing it also but mostly, I see people just forgetting that aspect completely.
> 
> Expecting helpers and gadgets to fix all of the problems never works but I have seen simple praise make a significant difference in many dogs. The handler is simply a huge part of protection training. Trying to remove them from training doesn't much solve the problem. They are going to be there in the trial. The handler has to be aware of how his dog views him and make adjustments accordingly.


Funny, our most senior and experienced guy told me Saturday to praise more.

I don't expect to anyone or thing to fix any bumps we have along the road. I'm actually working hard to become a helper so I have a better understanding of the details. I'm now going to be going twice a month to training Ailey to focus on being a helper, in addition to observing/questioning everything at normal training


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If you consider what I said about the e-collar with the Rottie I was talking about. I was tempted to do something to make him bark when the e-collar took his drive away. Most helpers are. The handler expected me to do something to make him bark, so, I did but got very little out of the dog and the bark was not really a bark. The e- collar correction took the dog down to a place I could not bring him all the way back from in that situation. He was a more prey oriented dog when I first started working him and was always aware of where his handler was. Meaning, the handler disturbed him a bit. We had done lots of work bringing up his aggression and having the handler praise him, especially during the guarding. The barking was quite good until that correction that took the aggression right out of the dog and his handler started to become that big, not positive, attraction again. No, he never took his eyes off me and I see lots of dogs in trials look like he was looking right there. However, when he used the e-collar, it put that dog right back where he was when I first started to work him. Most people would have watched and thought the dog was still enough in drive but I could see the change in the dog . So, like I said, I told the handler to put the pinch on and settle for a minutely slower out. You have to make these kinds of choices. You can't always have perfect compliance and strong aggression, barking etc. It is a balancing act. 

If I had gone along with the idea of stimulating the dog there, it would have started a cycle and we would have been making the dog reactive. All we needed to do was change the equipment. When you do things on the protection field that takes the dog out of drive, (requiring the helper to do lots of stimulation to bring the drive back), you can make the dog reactive. Again, that means where he will start to need that action and stim from the helper. Corrections should not take the drive away, they should only be enough to get the needed level of compliance. The strong dogs you have to look a bit harder to see the effect of the corrections and it can and does show up in places other than where the correction took place. I have seen that now hundreds of times. You have to look carefully at how what you are doing is affecting the dog. In my opinion, the e-collar is something to be used very minimally, if at all, in protection. I personally do not use one. What I see most of the time are "side effects" from it's use. It is not something for new people... if you ask me.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Fast said:


> Here I'll do it for you:
> 
> ** comments removed by Admin. **


just delete the whole thing


----------

