# Eagles’ Vick comes full circle with $100M deal



## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

Proof that there is no justice. This is utterly nauseating. I hate that man, just hate him. 


Jelpy


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I just keep hoping that karma WILL get him one day and he will get some nasty incurable disease that will make him die a slow, painful death. I truly believe that what goes around, comes around. If I DON'T keep telling myself this I would truly be tempted to do something awful. It may take years but he WILL get his. I believe that. Karma WILL get him. IT WILL.


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## fgshepherd (Sep 1, 2010)

He's one of the worst people on earth. I wish he'd just GO AWAY. What a.......I don't even have words to describe him. He's gotta face the BIG DADDY JUDGE eventually. And I don't think He takes kindly to people abusing His dogs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, yeah, Vick. What can I say? And then he hooks up with this organization....

Michael Vick and End Dogfighting : The Humane Society of the United States


UGH!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Boo to the Eagles, as well. I don't even follow football, but I root for the Eagles to lose with every ounce of my being!

Annette


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I agree with everyone's post in this thread so far.


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## silversmom (Mar 5, 2003)

*Michael Vick Lands Sweetheart Deal*

Eagles give Michael Vick 6-year, $100M contract - CBS News

100 million dollar contract and the image rehab is complete. Anybody else slightly queasy about this?

I have friends who work for HSUS and Wayne; wonder how much of the $ they'll get for helping with his 'rehab'.

Just disgusted.


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## koda00 (Apr 27, 2009)

silversmom said:


> Eagles give Michael Vick 6-year, $100M contract - CBS News
> 
> 100 million dollar contract and the image rehab is complete. Anybody else slightly queasy about this?
> 
> ...


 
same here!!!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/166112-eagles-vick-comes-full-circle-100m-deal.html


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

bocron said:


> Boo to the Eagles, as well. I don't even follow football, but I root for the Eagles to lose with every ounce of my being!
> 
> Annette


You should try living in NJ! All I hear is Eagles, Eagles, Eagles! 
I am not a football fan and I was turned off by the Eagles when I worked at a Mercedes Benz dealership. Some of the bigger players were "given" cars to drive for FREE and they still complained (oooh, can I say that word?). It left a bad taste in my mouth.
The Eagles fans are so two faced it makes me sick. They are without a doubt some (notice I said "some") of the worst fans in football. They jump on the bandwagon when they win and criticize the crap out of them when they lose.

They don't care about Vick's sick background. They only care about winning a stupid football game. I hope they crash and burn!!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Reading the comments on this story - not here but on other news sites - makes me sick. People just don't care except that he's a great football player.  There's a message to send young kids.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

I had to post this from a friend's FB page (he was born and raised in Philly and has lived in South Philly his entire life). He was a rabid Eagles fan up until they got Vick. He despises Vick. Here is what he posted on his page, oh and btw, the comments he's gotten have supported his post.

"I'll never be accused of being a Cowboy fan but when Mike Vick gets a $100M contract and Troy Aikman has to do Rent-A-Center commercials with Hulk Hogan do we need any further proof the world is not fair???"


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

DnP said:


> "I'll never be accused of being a Cowboy fan but when Mike Vick gets a $100M contract and Troy Aikman has to do Rent-A-Center commercials with Hulk Hogan do we need any further proof the world is not fair???"


:toasting:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Stories like this make me hope that there is a bad fiery place with demons and pitchforks (because I'm pretty sure that word will get censored) or at the very least reincarnation so Vick can spend his next life as a cockroach or something. Sorry to offend any cockroaches. Maybe a dung beetle would be better.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

would you hate him if he was a carpenter, truck driver,
painter, cab driver, bartender, mailman???



Jelpy said:


> Proof that there is no justice. This is utterly nauseating. I hate that man, just hate him.
> 
> 
> Jelpy


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> would you hate him if he was a carpenter, truck driver,
> painter, cab driver, bartender, mailman???


I think they hate ANYONE who abuses dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

As a Cowboys fan, I had the PLEASURE of seeing him get SACKED quite a few times, once it was so bad he bled. This season I will se it again and rejoice when I see him SACKED again! Hopefully he gets injured. Actually any defensive lineman who is going against Vick, I would love to have them sack him.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> would you hate him if he was a carpenter, truck driver,
> painter, cab driver, bartender, mailman???



I know I would, are you kidding, the damage he did to those dogs, the dogs that had to be euthanized because of his activities, I don't care WHO you are or what your "celebrity status" is. Dog Fighting is past illegal, it's IMMORAL.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> would you hate him if he was a carpenter, truck driver,
> painter, cab driver, bartender, mailman???


 
Yes. And I'll bet my bottom dollar he isn't finished with dog fighting yet. 

Jelpy


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> Stories like this make me hope that there is a bad fiery place with demons and pitchforks (because I'm pretty sure that word will get censored) or at the very least reincarnation so Vick can spend his next life as a cockroach or something. Sorry to offend any cockroaches. Maybe a dung beetle would be better.



I hope he comes back as a pitbull and some one cuts his ears off and tapes his muzzle with duct tape and throws him in a pit as a bait dog. Then I hope he has to sit in a cage waiting for some kind human to come along and want to give a former "fighting dog" with no ears and horrible scars a second chance.



doggiedad said:


> would you hate him if he was a carpenter, truck driver,
> painter, cab driver, bartender, mailman???



I would still hate him. But I wouldn't feel like there is absolutely no justice. Those people would have actually spent more time in prison and then when they got out not had the opportunity to go make $100 million a year. He has gone right back to his previous life like nothing ever happened. I hope he rots.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

DharmasMom said:


> I would still hate him. But I wouldn't feel like there is absolutely no justice. Those people would have actually spent more time in prison and then when they got out not had the opportunity to go make $100 million a year. He has gone right back to his previous life like nothing ever happened. I hope he rots.


see, this is the only thing I disagree with. I've seen the kinds of sentences people get for dog fighting "in the real world". 99% of them get probation and "time served". That time is usually however long it takes them to get bailed out, so maybe a day or two if the bail is high. Usually, though, it's just the couple hours it takes for all the paperwork to be processed. 

So, we have Vick's time in PRISON vs Joe Blow spending a couple days in the county lockup. Vick's fines vs a typical animal cruelty fine of a couple hundred dollars. I think the amount of money his career earns is irrelevant - most people don't have the ability to make that kind of cash anyway so it's apples and oranges. To say that a carpenter doesn't make $100M when he gets out of prison is pointless. He can still go back to being a carpenter and make the exact same amount as he did before prison.

personally, I hope that he will rot. But, the legal system is what it is. He did his time, more than most people would ever have to worry about. Boycott anything he is a spokesman for and any team that he plays for. If you want stiffer penalties, push for that. But, I honestly feel that he was punished to the extent that the law allows AND that he received a WORSE punishment because of who he was.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I ran out of time to edit..

ETA: If you feel that the money is relevant, then the fair thing to do is also mention that the carpenter lost $40,000 a year (about the national average) while Vick lost $50M. (I don't know how much he was making at the time)

ETA: Our system is set up to do your time and then move on with your life. Does anyone here do a background check on your plumber? Make sure he's never been convicted of dogfighting? Or do you just say "oh, he's a great plumber."


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## CuriousKira (Mar 15, 2011)

I realize his career is irrelevant to the crimes he committed. I really was just wishing that justice would somehow ruin his life like he did to those poor dogs. I realize this may sound extreme but hes the scumbag of the earth in my eyes.


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## Thru the Viewfinder (Aug 8, 2011)

It makes me ill, too.


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## Thru the Viewfinder (Aug 8, 2011)

It may be extreme, but the way I see it? 

Say that a serial killer, who was of celebrity status, (for which ever job they're employeed at) was caught and jailed. Then shortly there after, was released on "good behavior". (Its happened!) Would you be all hunky dory if you saw that person on TV or in the country's public eye livin' it up and more! I bet 99% of people asked would say HECKS NO to that! Not that they could change it, sure, maybe its completely irrelevant but wouldn't be slightly disturbed by the people cheering him on? 

There is a part of me that feels like this viewpoint isn't extreme. Not if you honestly disagree with "it's just an animal" or "who cares, it's just a dog" comments.

I also know that people have to agree to disagree at times, so even if I can't understand some peoples opinion on Vick, I will respect you and how you feel.


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## cpatrzyk (Sep 21, 2008)

They oughta spell his last name with a "D".
I hate the "man". Period.


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## got_e46 (Apr 5, 2011)

His crimes and his money have absolutely nothing in common. The fact that this thread exists at all is just ridiculous unless he is making that 100M from dog fighting rings or the like. Do I like Vick? Not at all. But according to the justice system, he paid for his crimes. Apparently, he is also serious about fixing his image, so why not see how it plays out? Or is our society just too judgmental and unforgiving? In the 5 years since his conviction, laws have been rewritten, punishments have been made harsher, and social awareness has risen.

As much as I dislike Vick, I find I dislike society just as much, and especially those who pass judgment again and again even after the punishment has long since been doled out and rehabilitation efforts are in full swing. Honestly, I'm glad Vick is making a fool out of the judgmental people. It is literally textbook sociology (in fact, I will be using this example in one of my papers this semester). 

Back to my initial statement though - this thread carries no relevance or correlation between his money and his crimes, and therefore this thread was made erroneously.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Do you even know what Vick did to those dogs?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

What has Vick's money or job, for that matter, got to do with his crimes? hate him for what he did or caused to happen to the dogs, absolutely! BUT he served his time and got out and got employment again - and society says he paid his price. Same as any other convict - unless maybe no convict should ever be allowed to resume his/her career?????????


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He got a good pounding today. 

I think that we are stuck with Vick, but I wish the NFL would clean up their act. They are supposed to be a _professional _football league. I think they should have a policy that going forward if a player is convicted of a felony, they are done, they are out of the NFL, for life. If they fail a drug test for illegal substances, they are done, history. It would not be long before people who wanted to be professional football players would start acting like human beings. It would only take a handful of players to lose their jobs for the rest of them to clean up their act. We can do without the thugs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

All i know is i loved seeing vick getting that concussion tonight, spitting up blood, and being taken out of the game. I watch his games, but every time he gets hit hard, I hope it's a major injury. 

Yes, he "paid his debt to society", but he also hung, shot, drowned, and electrocuted innocent dogs. These are the dogs that made it through a pointless dog fight. To me, there's no coming back from doing things like that. 

I'll always hope for the worst for him and people like that. I hope he gets a concussion every single game he plays in and it ends his career. And when his career is over, I hope he blows all of his money, again. 

The guy is absolute scum and he deserves the very worst in life.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If the NFL banned all felons, we would have a bunch of new players there, that is for sure. Course I guess the NBA, MLB and other major league sports leagues would have to do the same. What about soccer and how cycling leagues as well? NASCAR?

And of course all of the related minor leagues would also have to do the same and perhaps even all of the amatuer sports groups as well. No player in any sport should be allowed if they are a felon. Heh! Heh! Probably cut down considerably on the number of athletes in some sports.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> If the NFL banned all felons, we would have a bunch of new players there, that is for sure. Course I guess the NBA, MLB and other major league sports leagues would have to do the same. What about soccer and how cycling leagues as well? NASCAR?
> 
> And of course all of the related minor leagues would also have to do the same and perhaps even all of the amatuer sports groups as well. No player in any sport should be allowed if they are a felon. Heh! Heh! Probably cut down considerably on the number of athletes in some sports.


I think sports are starting to tighten up in terms of drugs and substance abuse since the whole steroids and baseball thing started making headlines. Baseball has really cleaned up it's act in terms of drug testing (they never did it before) and all of the other sports are starting to follow.

Roger Goodell, the NFL commissioner, has really stepped up his policies and punishments for bad behavior on and off the field. He's handing out much bigger suspensions and fines than the leagues ever seen before. Look at the whole terrelle pryor situation. He didn't even break any rules while in the NFL (was in college at the time), but was still suspended before he was even allowed to play one game. Same goes for the former Ohio State coach, jim tressel. He was hired by the colts and immediately suspended. He's making examples out of bad behavior more than ever before.

There's always going to be bad behavior in sports. A lot of these guys come from complete poverty to millions of dollars over night. It's a big culture shock when transitioning to a public figure making a lot of money, but a lot has been done in the recent years in all sports to improve off and on field behavior. You can't say there hasn't been changes for the better in the last few years.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We do not need thugs in professional sports. I think that if you commit felonies, you should risk losing your job. You should maybe have to go to work as a burger flipper, toilet cleaner, or grass cutter. You should not think that your life should get back to normal. Normal is what people get who obey the laws of society. 

So maybe a percentage of the NFL becomes no longer eligible because they were dumb and did something really stupid. There are 25 guys aching to take that guy's place. Maybe all those guys aren't superstars, but with coaching, and experience, they may do well. What is it 32 teams? 32 first string quarterbacks. There are other guys out there that can do the job. The first year or so it would be rocky, but youngsters coming out of college would know where they stood before the took the first drag on a joint -- hey if they test me, I can lose my whole career. They will cut the idiot-behavior out. Those who do not, will be out, and we will manage without them. 

This is your life, this is your life on drugs. Any questions? 

And the same would be true of other criminal acts.

I just do not understand why the NFL chooses to cater to criminals.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Nice to be a moral cop. Maybe just stop felons from having a job where they make more than minimum wage!

Should it count for white collar crimes as well as all other felonies, I wonder. Wonder what we should do with Madoffs (sp?) conviction when he stole all that money from so many folks?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> Nice to be a moral cop. Maybe just stop felons from having a job where they make more than minimum wage!
> 
> Should it count for white collar crimes as well as all other felonies, I wonder. Wonder what we should do with Madoffs (sp?) conviction when he stole all that money from so many folks?


My morals don't stop anyone from getting a job unless I'm the one doing the hiring. My morals do tell me that's it's not ok to brutally kill mutiple animals, serve a year in jail, and all is forgiven. That's me though... I don't make the laws.

As for Bernie Madoff, there aren't enough bad things that can happen to that guy to make up for all of his wrongs. He's lucky they don't give the death penalty for the crimes he committed and the money he stole because he definitely deserved it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A felony is a felony. Who cares if it is white-collar? If it is a felony, than it should be the same. People who commit crimes have chosen to thumb their nose at society. Why should not society thumb their nose at them? They cost us an arm and a leg in damages, in money, in court costs, in housing them safely. They should have to start over from the bottom. If you think that stinks, then do not commit stupid crimes. Why is that so hard? A felony is a really, really bad crime. It is not a parking ticket or a speeding ticket, or even shoplifting. It is a serious crime.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I just can't help but feel that he became more famous, rich, and powerful by what he did to those dogs. Before only people who were into football knew who he was(I know I certainly didn't know who he was). Now _everyone_ knows who he is. I feel as though he profited off of those dogs, and with all the publicity he's getting trying to redeem himself, he's profiting more and more from what he did to them. I wish society would have said "you are unfit to be in the public's eye" and disowned him from his fame. That would have been true atonement.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

There are a few NFL players that have killed people. Some players are even suspected of MURDER

There is one player that was accused of stabbing/murder but never got charged even though he later settled with the victim's family for millions. Actually 2 if you count OJ Simpson.

Ray Lewis was one suspected and eventually charged with Obstruction. He settled with the families for an undisclosed amount.....and STILL plays for the NFL.
Donte Stallworth was convicted of manslaughter and basically GOT OFF with a slap after serving 24 of a 30 day jail sentence for a DWI that killed somebody..... and he still plays.

It's my belief and just my personal opinion......these players make a lot of money. There is no place in any sport for criminals. There are plenty of GOOD/talented kids lined up to take their place if they can't do right.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Full circle will be when Vick ends up in a circle fenced in and has to fight some pit bulls.

As far as the other criminals be careful Jessie Jackson might show up here since their is a common non mentioned thing especially in the NBA and the NFL.

The legal stock market is almost as bad as madoff. Way to many people losing their money as CEO's keep getting rich. I never understood if you buy a stock for $100 and it goes down to $50, where did the $50 go? Its all on paper, except your money, someone kept that money.

If madoff didn't get caught, most of those people who knew something was wrong and all boasted how much money they were making, while others weren't, would have been happy. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt make it right at all. Not sure if any of you knew madoff clients, I did and they all were greedy, arrogant and most of them dumb. The way it was all presented to get in with him was so shady. I said no thank you, seems suspicious.

Madoff should be shot by firing squad with Vick next to him.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

kr16 said:


> If madoff didn't get caught, most of those people who knew something was wrong and all boasted how much money they were making, while others weren't, would have been happy. Dont get me wrong, that doesnt make it right at all. Not sure if any of you knew madoff clients, I did and they all were greedy, arrogant and most of them dumb. The way it was all presented to get in with him was so shady. I said no thank you, seems suspicious.


You can't blame the victims of madoffs scam for what happened. They were just rich people and institutions trying to make more money off the money they already had. Whether you knew a few of his investors that were greedy and arrogant is completely irrelevant. You can't generalize a group of thousands of investors based on a few.

As for how to invest with him, I can't speak for his hedge fund specifically, but with most hedge funds you typically have to have a certain amount of money (at least $1 mil to initially invest, sometimes even more) or you need to specifically know him or people within the fund - family, friends, business associates, etc). 

Hedge funds don't advertise or just let anyone invest. There are strict rules on who can invest and the minimum amount they need to invest. Most of the time they're locked up for years without the possibility to pull there money out even if they wanted to. Most average or even rich people don't even have a percentage of the minimum amount to invest and get involved. These were family, friends, and people he had been working with for years that he screwed over. It's sick what he did - it takes a complete sociopath.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

As I read the many hateful posts about Vick and others, I'm surprised to be in the company of so many faultless and perfect people. I've made a few mistakes in my life. Almost makes me uncomfortable to be among so many great folk. It's hard to tell what the cut-off is when something is forgivable or damns you forever. One of these is ok, two is too many, three and good golly miss molly. It's good to see the compassion and mercy most have as well. Glad that a human is injured and hoping for even more severe injuries. Yep, indeed, a proud moment indeed. 

DFrost


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

DFrost said:


> As I read the many hateful posts about Vick and others, I'm surprised to be in the company of so many faultless and perfect people. I've made a few mistakes in my life. Almost makes me uncomfortable to be among so many great folk. It's hard to tell what the cut-off is when something is forgivable or damns you forever. One of these is ok, two is too many, three and good golly miss molly. It's good to see the compassion and mercy most have as well. Glad that a human is injured and hoping for even more severe injuries. Yep, indeed, a proud moment indeed.
> 
> DFrost


Lets say I had a big dog fighting ring going. Just as big as Michael Vicks with just as much money flowing as his did.

Some of these dogs need to be trained, right? I'm walking down the street and I see your dog unattended to in the backyard. My dogs need a bait dog to give him that taste of blood, so i take the dog out of your yard, and bring him to my home. 

At my house, I muzzle your dog so he had no possible way of defending himself and unleash a few of my prized fighters, one at a time. Each dog ripping apart your dog more and more until it dies a slow and painful death.

Keep in mind this is your dog this is happening to... not a random one you have no emotional ties to. I go away for a little time because I was caught, but you're still missing your dog and you know exactly how it died. Do you forgive me because I said I'm sorry?


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## dogless (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't believe for a second he is sorry about what he did, that is what bothers me. He blames it all on his upbringing.

When I was a kid, maybe 10 years old, I took by brothers bb gun and killed a bird in our back yard, because I wanted to see if I could do it. I actually hit and killed it. As it fell from the tree branch, bouncing off the other branches till it hit the ground, I stood horrified at what I did. That was more then 30 years ago and I still feel immense guilt for that senseless killing. 

If Vick felt a minute fraction of the remorse that I felt over killing one little robbin, instantly, not beating it to death, then maybe I could forgive him a little, but that will never happen, so forgiveness will never happen either.



DFrost said:


> As I read the many hateful posts about Vick and others, I'm surprised to be in the company of so many faultless and perfect people. I've made a few mistakes in my life. Almost makes me uncomfortable to be among so many great folk. It's hard to tell what the cut-off is when something is forgivable or damns you forever. One of these is ok, two is too many, three and good golly miss molly. It's good to see the compassion and mercy most have as well. Glad that a human is injured and hoping for even more severe injuries. Yep, indeed, a proud moment indeed.
> 
> DFrost


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm all for forgiveness and compassion. I know as much as anyone that no one on this planet is perfect... not one single person.

As some people mentioned before, I don't agree that if you commit a felony that you should be banned for life from a professional sport, but it really depends on the felony. It depends on your history. There are a lot of variables when deciding punishment... this is why we have a commissioner for each league to decide the punishment for the crime. This is why we have a court and legal system.

I also think there are certain things you do in life that there's no forgiveness for. Murder, rape, or really any kind of serious violent crimes including the torture and execution of innocent dogs. To me, there's no coming back from that... first offense or not. Again, that's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

dogless said:


> When I was a kid, maybe 10 years old, I took by brothers bb gun and killed a bird in our back yard, because I wanted to see if I could do it. I actually hit and killed it. As it fell from the tree branch, bouncing off the other branches till it hit the ground, I stood horrified at what I did. That was more then 30 years ago and I still feel immense guilt for that senseless killing.
> 
> If Vick felt a minute fraction of the remorse that I felt over killing one little robbin, instantly, not beating it to death, then maybe I could forgive him a little, but that will never happen, so forgiveness will never happen either.


Well, upbringing and cultural influence does play a part, a huge part, in how we see animals. 

Lets take a look at the scenario outlined above. Except we'll add in an adult father figure now witnessing the whole bird killing incident. How would your impression of the incident change if a man that you look up to praised you like crazy for killing the bird? And everywhere you looked, there were other boys and men also out killing birds and they get praised as well.

What if you express remorse for the bird killing and you get ridiculed for feeling that way? Growing up in a ghetto is no picnic, and the strong really do inherit the earth. There is no room for weakness and to express an aversion to a cultural norm would be seen as a huge sign of weakness. I have seen first hand how dogs are treated in the ghetto. 

The saying "You do better when you know better" should be front and center in any discussion of Michael Vick. The measure of the man should be what he does with his life from now on, now that he knows better. It is entirely possible that, given all his cultural influences growing up and as a young man, that he didn't know any better. 
Sheilah


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm all for forgiveness and compassion. I know as much as anyone that no one on this planet is perfect... not one single person.



I see that. The compassion just overflows from your post. So you're telling me, Micheal Vick stole a dog from your yard and fed it to his fighters? 

Never mind. You already said you were all for forgiveness and compassion. I forgot. 

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

dogless said:


> I don't believe for a second he is sorry about what he did, that is what bothers me. He blames it all on his upbringing.


Your sorry, but he's not, right? I wish I had your insight. 

DFrost


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DFrost said:


> As I read the many hateful posts about Vick and others, I'm surprised to be in the company of so many faultless and perfect people. I've made a few mistakes in my life. Almost makes me uncomfortable to be among so many great folk. It's hard to tell what the cut-off is when something is forgivable or damns you forever. One of these is ok, two is too many, three and good golly miss molly. It's good to see the compassion and mercy most have as well. Glad that a human is injured and hoping for even more severe injuries. Yep, indeed, a proud moment indeed.
> 
> DFrost


Thanks DFrost.
I didn't touch this thread because I'm not used to this kind of hatred. 
This is strictly my opinion but people who carry this much hatred will be the ones who suffer in the long run.
I don't condone anything Vick did but as sit,stay said unless you are born into a culture like some in this and other countries you just don't understand. I wasn't born into that culture but have friends who were and since they were raised that way until they grew older and became more educated they didn't see some of this stuff as such a big deal. May sound sick to some. These things happen all over this country.
How did that go "before you accuse critisize and abuse walk a mile in my shoes". And I'm not talking about me personally.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> You can't blame the victims of madoffs scam for what happened. They were just rich people and institutions trying to make more money off the money they already had. Whether you knew a few of his investors that were greedy and arrogant is completely irrelevant. You can't generalize a group of thousands of investors based on a few.
> 
> As for how to invest with him, I can't speak for his hedge fund specifically, but with most hedge funds you typically have to have a certain amount of money (at least $1 mil to initially invest, sometimes even more) or you need to specifically know him or people within the fund - family, friends, business associates, etc).
> 
> Hedge funds don't advertise or just let anyone invest. There are strict rules on who can invest and the minimum amount they need to invest. Most of the time they're locked up for years without the possibility to pull there money out even if they wanted to. Most average or even rich people don't even have a percentage of the minimum amount to invest and get involved. These were family, friends, and people he had been working with for years that he screwed over. It's sick what he did - it takes a complete sociopath.


I see what your saying from your point but if you knew some of the victims, ask them how it went down. They were told it was a hush hush secret thing. It was as shady as you can get. They tried to get my family in on it. I also dealt with some of them also as I sell annuities and you should have heard them. I always told them its to good to be true. Im not saying it was right at all what he did, it was horrible. People do need to take responsibility sometimes for these things also. Look at the list of who was on their

I feel for them, dont get me wrong my best friends dad at 80 years of age lost everything. But keep in mind some of them got huge money also through this. I did say he should be shot for what he did.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

DFrost said:


> I see that. The compassion just overflows from your post. So you're telling me, Micheal Vick stole a dog from your yard and fed it to his fighters?
> 
> Never mind. You already said you were all for forgiveness and compassion. I forgot.
> 
> DFrost


It's called a scenario. Nothing to do with Vick individually as an athlete, but more the things he did.

I used the scenario I did to make it more personal than just random dogs you hear about on the news. Something to possibly change your outlook on the situation.

And you still didn't answer my question. If I did that to your personal dog... Would you forgive me?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

kr16 said:


> I see what your saying from your point but if you knew some of the victims, ask them how it went down. They were told it was a hush hush secret thing. It was as shady as you can get. They tried to get my family in on it. I also dealt with some of them also as I sell annuities and you should have heard them. I always told them its to good to be true. Im not saying it was right at all what he did, it was horrible. People do need to take responsibility sometimes for these things also. Look at the list of who was on their
> 
> I feel for them, dont get me wrong my best friends dad at 80 years of age lost everything. But keep in mind some of them got huge money also through this. I did say he should be shot for what he did.


Pretty much all hedge funds are hush hush... It's the way a lot of those funds are run. 

Investors typically don't know how they're run, they just giving their money on reputation alone. Some investors do their due diligence but it's really not that uncommon not to. Investment strategies are very generic and very secretive outside of what you'll find in the offering memorandum and subscription documents that you sign.

You typically can't even find out how the fund is doing on a day to day basis and have to wait to get your monthly statement. If you want to pull your money out, you usually can't unless you want to pay huge fees.

This is the hedge fund industry - they're all like this. All seem very shady and secretive, but that's why your average person can't invest in them. Theyre set up for big gains, but you also have to be able to take big hits too.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> It's called a scenario.
> 
> And you still didn't answer my question. If I did that to your personal dog... Would you forgive me?


Actually, I think in this case it is more sensationalism than scenario, it had nothing to do with this discussion. It's your story however, if you need that hype to continue to hate, that's your deal, not mine. 

I don't know if I could forgive or not. I do know, I would not wish you serious bodily harm every time you legally interacted with anyone. 

I don't know Vick. I don't approve of what he did. I won't buy a Vick football jersey. If he decides to sell BBQ sauce or dog collars I won't buy any of those either. Whether we approve or not, he did pay the debt to society ordered by a court. I've spent many years in uniform, arranging for people to be given the justice our system sees fit. It's not up to me personally to see they suffer to my exacting standards. 


DFrost


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

DFrost said:


> I don't approve of what he did.


And that is a great point! You can totally NOT approve of his behavior and yet still think that he should be able to prove that he has learned his lesson.

They aren't mutually exclusive.
Sheilah


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

DFrost said:


> Whether we approve or not, he did pay the debt to society ordered by a court. I've spent many years in uniform, arranging for people to be given the justice our system sees fit. It's not up to me personally to see they suffer to my exacting standards.
> 
> 
> DFrost


Since we're on the subject of our legal system and athletes... Does this debt to society ordered by a court apply to Donte Stallworth too?

This guy was extremely drunk, got in a car, and ran over some innocent guy crossing the street and killed him. What did the court give him? I think he got something like 20 days in jail for killing someone.

I understand people have different opinions, but there's more to me than just paying what's ordered by the court especially when our legal system can be a complete joke at times.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Everyone can have their own opinion in this country thanks to our legal system. Wonder if anyone is also against that part of our system here as well.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> Everyone can have their own opinion in this country thanks to our legal system. Wonder if anyone is also against that part of our system here as well.


Yeah... There are probably tons of anti freedom of speech people on a message board...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah... There are probably tons of anti freedom of speech people on a message board...


 
I agree with you as it really seems like it, doesn't it?


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## bratt (Aug 24, 2010)

I do not wish him bodily harm. two wrongs don't make a right. But i will not endorse anything he has to do with. From the things i've seen he doesn't seem to be truly remorseful for what he did. I don't watch football and i no longer purchase Nike products. I just feel that he shouldn't be someone we encourage people to look up to. I could not stop crying when i read Lost Dogs


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> Since we're on the subject of our legal system and athletes... Does this debt to society ordered by a court apply to Donte Stallworth too?
> 
> .


You can "what if" and point out miscarriages of justice all day long. We can debate the legal system and it's inadequacies. I could counter with persons that are spending numerous years in prison and in some cases have been executed. Since we really aren't on the subject of our legal system it will only result in more disagreements. Whether a person is willing to forgive is a personal decision. Whether a person wants to wish nothing but harm to another is again a personal decision. Personally, I don't want to be part of that hatred. 

DFrost


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

"To each his own"


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DFrost said:


> You can "what if" and point out miscarriages of justice all day long. We can debate the legal system and it's inadequacies. I could counter with persons that are spending numerous years in prison and in some cases have been executed. Since we really aren't on the subject of our legal system it will only result in more disagreements. Whether a person is willing to forgive is a personal decision. Whether a person wants to wish nothing but harm to another is again a personal decision. Personally, I don't want to be part of that hatred.
> 
> DFrost


Once again I agree DFrost.

Vick doesn't know or care that some people hate him. I'm sure he suspects it but he is not affected by forum members hate. People who hate are the ones who will suffer. There are studies about what continuing anger and hatred do to a person. I've seen them but I'm not going to look them up because the haters won't care anyway.

China, Vietnam, and Korea eat dogs and cats. We in the U.S. love our animals almost as much as our children, for some maybe more. We always think our culture is right. When we eat our hamburger or fried chicken do we care about how they were treated before they got to our plate. I guess it's because it is impersonal and most people never see the animals or fowl on their journey to the slaughter houses.
No, I am not a vegetarian but if there is another life I would be one.
Back to China for a minute. There is an article on Salon .com that discusses them eating dogs and cats and selling their fur. (hair). The way they slaughter them is as bad or worse than what Vick did. Again I don't condone what he did.
You gonna hate all Chinese because of their culture.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The Chinese people are not breaking a law in their country, Michael Vick did, and knew he as when he did it. 

I am more disappointed with the NFL for allowing thugs to play professional football, than hating MV. I am much more disgusted with the Ray Lewis scenario because every single Ravens game had them showcasing him, shoving him down our throats. 

I come from a different background. My dad could not read until I was four years old and he taught himself. My mother come out of a family where every one of her brothers spent time in jail, her eldest brother was murdered, her youngest brother has finally been sprung and is homeless somewhere -- someone was trying to put him on a bus to Cleveland if he could get my mother to take him in. No way is that going to happen. Some stains don't come out. Her father broke her mother's jaw on five separate occasions, and was very abusive to all of them before he finally split. I never met him, we found out he was dead years afterwards. 

My parents did not have two nickels to rub together. Married and 17 and 19 and neither had high school. They had six kids and my dad had a serious alcohol problem. 

I think what is so perplexing about celebrities committing crimes, is that these people have the world on a string. They do not need to escape into a bottle or take drugs because of all their problems. They have everything; fame, money, hero-worship, a future and they are willing to throw it all away for dog fighting? for drugs? for drinking and driving? They have to shoot people or stab people or obstruct justice? Why?!? 

Not all crimes are committed in the poor sections of town, but the bulk of them are. And the victims are poor people most of the time. It does not help poor people for people to be understanding and forgiving to criminals. I will save my understanding for the victims thank you very much. The criminals, we pay for them to live, to have TV, to have access to education, and college courses, and to have medical procedures, and to have nutritious food, and a gym, and have free access to the legal system to file lawsuits and such. They come out of jail with a diploma or a degree, and an agency waiting to help them get a place to live and a good job. Where is the victim? Does anyone care? Is she still a convenience store clerk because she cannot afford to go to school and get out of the bad neighborhood and dangerous job? 

Whatever. 

Everyone is concerned about the criminal, that he does not land back in the system. No one cares if the victim is victimized again. The criminal can get all the councelling he wants. The victim might be able to find a volunteer-run/donation sponsored victim advocate group, if she lives in the right county. 

I do not come out of the ghetto, but my family could easily be criminals and bums due to our background. Not one of us has spent any time in jail. Why? Because we do not want to screw up our lives like that. 

Seeing people willing to throw away something worth throwing away, and then when they do, they get out and pick it all up again, they are still heroes, still making millions, still famous??? These people should be stocking shelves at convenience stores it is disgusting. 

I think that Robby Alomar got more guff for spitting than Ray lewis got for that whole murder deal. And if you or I did what he did, we would be sitting in prison right now. And if we did get out, we would not be in the spot light, offered the fame and glory and job we had when we went away.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I do not come out of the ghetto, but my family could easily be criminals and bums due to our background. Not one of us has spent any time in jail. Why? Because we do not want to screw up our lives like that.


 How did you know that going to jail would be screwing up your life? Was this something that you were just born knowing without any modeling or instruction from your parents? 
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Everyone in the neighborhood _knew_ that they don't want to get arrested. I think you should give people credit. They KNOW it will screw up their lives. Well now, maybe not so much. Look at MV and RL, they can commit heinous crimes and not have their lives screwed up. 

My parents never sat us down and told us that if we break the law, we will go to jail, and then we will have an even harder time making a living, if that is what your asking.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> The Chinese people are not breaking a law in their country, Michael Vick did, and knew he as when he did it.
> 
> Selzer:
> 
> ...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Andy... that may be true, but Michael Vick didn't commit his crimes in China. They were committed here in the US where what he did is considered both morally and legally wrong.

Plus it takes a cold heart to do the things he did with his own hands.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Killing animals for food is not always done in ways that are perceived humane. Obviously drugs are out if you are killing the animal for food. So someone is not going to be happy. There are people somewhere that do not like the idea that they kill beef cattle with a sledge hammer. I feel that as an American, I do not feel like I can point at the Chinese and say "Foul!" While we do stuff here that others can cry Foul! on.

Dog fighting is a blood sport, and everything in the ring and out of the ring is done specifically to create a rather hideous entertainment and something to bet on. It is BIG business too. The dogs cost a LOT of money, and they have more equipment than a breeder is likely to have for sure. They make a LOT of money on dog fighting.

I know that this is a dog-site, but I kind of agree that MV has probably spent more time in jail than the majority of people who participate in dog-fighting. He waited to be released. And now he is getting on with his life. I wish the NFL had a policy that does not allow people who have been convicted of a felony to be NFL players. And other crimes should end their careers like when they call participation in murder obstruction of justice, Vehicular homicide if alcohol in the player's system is a factor, and any type of drug conviction. 

But there is no such policy so MV applied for a job and got one. OK. I just wish that people would stop giving him all the noteriety. I had the HSUS is now in bed with him. I would literally have to disinfect my hand if I had to shake his. I think that if he truly saw the error of his ways, he would not be making such a spectacle of himself with the humane society. He should just play football, and whatever he wants to do to atone for his sins against dogs in general should be done quietly, not to gain more press.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

As long as Michael Vick can still run fast and throw the ball far... he will continue to have his notoriety. He's a special talent and he pretty much revolutionized the QB position because of the things he does on the field. 

I don't know if you were watching the game last night, but did you see all the #7 vick jerseys (both eagles and falcons) in the stands last night? As long as he continues to be productive on the field, he will always have his notoriety and people will continue to love him no matter what's in his past. We are just a very forgiving society in general especially with public figures.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I watched the game, at least the last quarter -- was driving and listening, but no I did not notice all the number 7s. I think we should get over it with him. But I think that going forward we should clean up the NFL. Keep the thugs out. People who commit crimes do not have enough intelligence to be professional football players. Think about it. What team should give them a job. A lot of good you do your team when you are sitting in prison. I would not have expected any team to give him another shot. But they did, so the NFL should make that never happen again, and make themselves a thug-free organization going forward. Have each team sit down their players and tell them that if they do A or B or C, they will no longer be able to have a job anywhere in the NFL. EASY.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

O. k. I lied, one more post.

My personal belief. Harboring hatred is bad for the spirit, the soul, and the body. If folks don't believe in the spirit, or soul, then Google what hatred and anger do to the body. Doesn't matter if it's Vick or the government or religion or the next door neighbor. 

It doesn't mean I'm not passionate about things or perfect in any way. I just *try* not to hang on to hate and wishing bad things on people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just see it different. I don't wish bad things on him, like bodily injury or death. But I do not think he should just pick up his life where he left off either. He should have to work his way back to normal. Criminals are the bottom of the barrel. They need to kick butt just to get back to average/even where everyone else starts out. Will some criminals simply give up and not try, yupp, they are losers. I don't see why we should give them a leg up. 

A bad injury might end a career in football. A stint in prison ought to.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> O. k. I lied, one more post.
> 
> My personal belief. Harboring hatred is bad for the spirit, the soul, and the body. If folks don't believe in the spirit, or soul, then Google what hatred and anger do to the body. Doesn't matter if it's Vick or the government or religion or the next door neighbor.
> 
> It doesn't mean I'm not passionate about things or perfect in any way. I just *try* not to hang on to hate and wishing bad things on people.


So you're saying it's not good that I have a little #7 voodoo doll that I stick pins in every night?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Everyone in the neighborhood _knew_ that they don't want to get arrested. I think you should give people credit. They KNOW it will screw up their lives. Well now, maybe not so much. Look at MV and RL, they can commit heinous crimes and not have their lives screwed up.
> 
> My parents never sat us down and told us that if we break the law, we will go to jail, and then we will have an even harder time making a living, if that is what your asking.


Well, there you go. Your community frowned on going to jail. That "knowing' that you speak of, it comes from somewhere. You pick these mores up from your family and your community. Perhaps if you had been raised by your uncles and not your parents, you would have a different perspective? But, because of the environment that you were raised in, your perspective was that going to jail was a bad thing.

Vick's perspective was that dog fighting was not a bad thing. That is how he was raised and what he believed. If you can accept that a person's perspective can be influenced in positive ways by their environment ("Everyone in the neighborhood knew that they didn't want to get arrested"), why is it so hard to accept that a person's environment can influence them in negative ways? Your brothers and sisters? Your neighbors? That "knowing" wasn't something you were all born with. You all learned it. In your environment. That was your accepted perspective.

It is entirely possible that Vick really has had a catastrophic shift in perspective, because his arrest, conviction and incarceration caused a shift in his perspective. 
Sheilah


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Can you explain to me what "starting at the bottom" means? So you want them to have a minimum wage job for some time before they get to use their god given talents? Now, after jail, a fellon should also be limited in what he is and isn't allowed to do past probation? Also the kind of work he is and isn't allowed to do? Vick has a gift, that no one else on this planet has, and because of it he will be playing. Do I agree with anything he did? No, but I do think he's paid his time and there is no reason to put any of these further restrictions on him.

He did start at the bottom...he was unemployed and found a job. I find this limit his ability to find a job idea almost as crazy as the one about lining him up infront of a firing squad...seriously people? Now we want people killed for offenses our justice system lets people go for with a slap on the wrist?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Now, after jail, a fellon should also be limited in what he is and isn't allowed to do past probation? Also the kind of work he is and isn't allowed to do?



Actually depending on the type of felon, they ARE limited to what they can/can't do can/can't have and where they can work. My ex husband is a felon. He did his time in jail and is now on probation, but even after probation he will still be limited in certain things. He lucked out and got a good job, but it took him over a year after getting out of prison to find it. Not many people want to hire a felon.

As far as the M.V. stuff. I'm over it. I'm sorry but I am. No I don't condone or agree with anything he did, I think it was horrific, but I also think its time to move on. Unless someone is going to put this much energy into seeing everyone who does/did what M.V. did, then I really see no point. The only difference...the ONLY one, between him and the average joe is that he is in the lime light. Even then I think people put to much on that. The world is a big place, I didn't know who M.V. was before all this happened, and I hardly hear about him now. No one talks about him. At least not in my circles they don't. Other than "oh thats the guy that did .... isnt it?" and subject change.

The only thing I can say is that people need to make sure they direct their hatred out somehow (like venting, or..voodoo dolls lol) and try not to hold on it to much.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> Well, there you go. Your community frowned on going to jail. That "knowing' that you speak of, it comes from somewhere. You pick these mores up from your family and your community. Perhaps if you had been raised by your uncles and not your parents, you would have a different perspective? But, because of the environment that you were raised in, your perspective was that going to jail was a bad thing.
> 
> Vick's perspective was that dog fighting was not a bad thing. That is how he was raised and what he believed. If you can accept that a person's perspective can be influenced in positive ways by their environment ("Everyone in the neighborhood knew that they didn't want to get arrested"), why is it so hard to accept that a person's environment can influence them in negative ways? Your brothers and sisters? Your neighbors? That "knowing" wasn't something you were all born with. You all learned it. In your environment. That was your accepted perspective.
> 
> ...



Michael Vick was an adult, who went to college. If we were talking about a thirteen year old kid, then maybe I would agree with you. But there are plenty of opportunities through a high school and college football career to learn that there are choices in life, and if you decide to do things that are illegal, there are consequences. 

I was never an athlete. I was never allowed to participate in any extra-curricular activities because I had to come home and have dinner on the table so my parents could eat before going to school, and I had to watch my younger brother and sister. So the school could not even put me in detention after school because I had to be at home to care for them. 

But, the student athletes at schools I went to would be ineligible to play if they did not meet educational goals, broke school rules, or failed drug tests. I was not even an athlete, it did not effect me at all, and I _knew_ this. I am sure college is the same, and somewhere MV and RL had rules like these imposed on them. 

Making excuses for unacceptable behavior is not helpful, it is certainly not helpful for the thousands of people living in areas like this. And I think it is a little bit insulting to suggest that a college educated adult might not know that participating in illegal activity could seriously damage his life and career.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Michael Vick was an adult, who went to college


These top tier student athletes live in a bubble, Selzer. They are in college to play ball, and everything else comes after playing ball. Their coaches aren't looking for misconceptions about dogs. As far as they are concerned, that is none of their business because it doesn't impact their ball play.

College sports is a gazillion dollar business. College football in particular (along with basketball). How someone views dog fighting is not even going to register on the radar (unless a student is caught at a dog fight-in which case they might not be able to play and THAT will catch the attention of the coaching staff).

Now, if you can show that Vick went through some "Dog Fighting Is Bad" class while in college, and he STILL went out and did what he did, then you can say that his college education as a top tier athlete should have made a difference.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Can you explain to me what "starting at the bottom" means? So you want them to have a minimum wage job for some time before they get to use their god given talents? Now, after jail, a fellon should also be limited in what he is and isn't allowed to do past probation? Also the kind of work he is and isn't allowed to do? Vick has a gift, that no one else on this planet has, and because of it he will be playing. Do I agree with anything he did? No, but I do think he's paid his time and there is no reason to put any of these further restrictions on him.
> 
> He did start at the bottom...he was unemployed and found a job. I find this limit his ability to find a job idea almost as crazy as the one about lining him up infront of a firing squad...seriously people? Now we want people killed for offenses our justice system lets people go for with a slap on the wrist?


I do not know, I think that employers should be able to inquire about whether someone has a record, at least for a number of years, 5-7 maybe. It should be up to employers whether they are willing to give someone a job. If there are two applicants and one has a felony record, guess who is getting hired? So I would think the better work places will be more difficult to get work at. Certain jobs should be unattainable, school teachers, police officers, prison guards, and others. Professional sports I think is one of those areas where their governing body ought to set a standard of conduct for the people who are in the public eye. What Vick and Lewis have done reflects badly on the organization. I am disappointed that the organization does not have such a standard in place.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> But, the student athletes at schools I went to would be ineligible to play if they did not meet educational goals, broke school rules, or failed drug tests.


I am not trying to be snotty here, but I doubt very much that your experience as a college student can compare to someone like Michael Vick's experience at Virginia Tech, a powerhouse in their athletic conference. It is apples and oranges. There is eligibility to play and then there is *eligibility* to play. You know what I mean? 

Shoot, I am currently attending Boise State University. The Broncos are ranked, what, #4 in the country right now? Football brings in millions and millions of dollars to BSU. The football team carries the rest of the university. And even in a program that is known for not suffering punks or thugs, the football players live in a separate world. Their college experience is very, very different from yours and mine!
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> These top tier student athletes live in a bubble, Selzer. They are in college to play ball, and everything else comes after playing ball. Their coaches aren't looking for misconceptions about dogs. As far as they are concerned, that is none of their business because it doesn't impact their ball play.
> 
> College sports is a gazillion dollar business. College football in particular (along with basketball). How someone views dog fighting is not even going to register on the radar (unless a student is caught at a dog fight-in which case they might not be able to play and THAT will catch the attention of the coaching staff).
> 
> ...


Dog fighting is against the law. MV knows this. While they were building their organization, they were not advertising where the fights would be on TV and in the paper. Just because he thinks it is no big deal, does not feel it is wrong does not mean he in incapable of understanding that it is outside of the law, and could impact his career. 

Let's say my family doesn't have a problem with letting underage people drink alcohol. In fact, when we were confirmed in the eighth grade is when we were then allowed to drink wine with meals. So my family does not have a problem with underage drinking. Every new years eve, we celebrated the new year and alcohol was generally part of that celebration. My folks had parties, and the kids often cleaned up after them. Now just because we do not feel it is wrong, if we served someone else's kids alcohol at a party, and that kid drove home and got into a wreck, should we not be penalized because in our culture underage drinking is no big thing?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Most people do not go through a "Rape is Bad" class but they know it is against the law.

Most people do not go through a "Murder is Bad" class but they know it is against the law.

Most people do go through a "Drugs are Bad" class at some point, and they know it is against the law, and many do it anyway. 

Give human beings some credit. Again it is insulting to think that MV did not realize that what he was doing was not acceptable.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Selzer, once again I think you are missing the larger picture here. So, rather than get into a situation where you continue to focus on your point without seeing where the larger picture comes into play, I'll respectfully say that we are not talking about the same thing here and leave it at that.

You have a nice day.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Now just because we do not feel it is wrong, if we served someone else's kids alcohol at a party, and that kid drove home and got into a wreck, should we not be penalized because in our culture underage drinking is no big thing?


Okay, after this I really will be done! But...I need to point out to you that your parents were actually breaking the law when they gave you alcohol.

It doesn't matter if the children are your own or not. Giving an underage person alcohol is illegal. But your parents ignored that law and did it anyway. Because in their perspective they should be able to decide what was appropriate and what was not appropriate for their own children. Their perspective was that giving a child alcohol was okay. Kind of like Vick's perspective was that dog fighting was okay. 

Their. Own. Perspective. Told. Them. That. They. Could. Ignore. That. Law. If that argument is good for your parents, then it is good for Vick, since if it applies in one case, it applies in the other.

Okay. I really am done now. Real life is calling me. I am girding myself for the battle that is Costco.
Sheilah


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

actually up until recently, in this state, it was perfectly legal to give your children alcohol as long as you were present from the time they drank it, till the time it cleared their system. 

I know there was a proposed law recently about it (last 5 years or so), not sure if it went thru or not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> Selzer, once again I think you are missing the larger picture here. So, rather than get into a situation where you continue to focus on your point without seeing where the larger picture comes into play, I'll respectfully say that we are not talking about the same thing here and leave it at that.
> 
> You have a nice day.
> Sheilah


What a great way to knock someone down. 

Selzer, YOU are missing, 

YOU continue to focus on YOUR point without SEEING...

I'll RESPECTFULLY say....

*** Thought I would just say there was nothing respectful about this post, you should have just said, 

"Sue you are wrong, I am right, and I am not going to say anything more about it. Have a poopie day."


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The NFL isn't the employer in this case, and they can't make a rule that states you can't hire a felon because that would most definately be against the law (equal opportunity). Of course, if someone with the same talents is going for a job against a felon with those same credentials the one without a record will probably win out, but Vick is clearly a much better quarterback than most people.

The Eagles I'm sure thought about the public scrutiny and the fact that they would lose some fans, but I guarantee that for every fan they lost, they have sold 10 Vick jerseys. Like it was mentioned before, the rest of the world already forgot about what he did, you don't even hear it mentioned on telecasts of the Eagles games anymore.

But now I get what you're saying, its up to the company and you just don't like the fact that they are allowing these players in. At first I thought you were talking about laws the government should set forth.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

sit said:


> Well, there you go. Your community frowned on going to jail. That "knowing' that you speak of, it comes from somewhere. You pick these mores up from your family and your community. Perhaps if you had been raised by your uncles and not your parents, you would have a different perspective? But, because of the environment that you were raised in, your perspective was that going to jail was a bad thing.
> 
> Vick's perspective was that dog fighting was not a bad thing. That is how he was raised and what he believed. If you can accept that a person's perspective can be influenced in positive ways by their environment ("Everyone in the neighborhood knew that they didn't want to get arrested"), why is it so hard to accept that a person's environment can influence them in negative ways? Your brothers and sisters? Your neighbors? That "knowing" wasn't something you were all born with. You all learned it. In your environment. That was your accepted perspective.
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree with you 100% had it just been dog fighting. But hooking battery cables to dogs and throwing them into metal pools of water to thrash and die is another. So is beating their heads into the ground till dead. Those things are on another level.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> Okay, after this I really will be done! But...I need to point out to you that your parents were actually breaking the law when they gave you alcohol.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the children are your own or not. Giving an underage person alcohol is illegal. But your parents ignored that law and did it anyway. Because in their perspective they should be able to decide what was appropriate and what was not appropriate for their own children. Their perspective was that giving a child alcohol was okay. Kind of like Vick's perspective was that dog fighting was okay.
> 
> ...


I do not believe back when I was a kid, that it WAS against the law to give your own kids alcohol. Could be wrong about that. I know that providing alcohol at a party to underage kids nowadays will get you in deep doo doo. We were not allowed to buy it back then, but drink it, if our parents gave it to us? I think that was ok. So I grew up with that being fine. So if I went ahead and gave my sister's kids' alcohol, because I was raised that way, I should not be under any type of law because in my culture that is just fine. My mother used to give my brother beer when he was still nursing. The horrors! LOL!

So this is your last word? I love when people throw a punch and then say, I'm quitting now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> The NFL isn't the employer in this case, and they can't make a rule that states you can't hire a felon because that would most definately be against the law (equal opportunity). Of course, if someone with the same talents is going for a job against a felon with those same credentials the one without a record will probably win out, but Vick is clearly a much better quarterback than most people.
> 
> The Eagles I'm sure thought about the public scrutiny and the fact that they would lose some fans, but I guarantee that for every fan they lost, they have sold 10 Vick jerseys. Like it was mentioned before, the rest of the world already forgot about what he did, you don't even hear it mentioned on telecasts of the Eagles games anymore.
> 
> But now I get what you're saying, its up to the company and you just don't like the fact that they are allowing these players in. At first I thought you were talking about laws the government should set forth.


I am kind of glad they are not mentioning it. 

The NFL is not the employer, but the do have rules of conduct and they have a union and they do make many of the policies. It was up to the NFL to allow Michael Vick to be eligible to be rehired or not. I did not realize that Equal Opportunity referred to ex-cons. I though it had to do with minorities and women. Usually the paper says, "EOE, women and minorities encouraged to apply."


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Equal opportunity has to do with everyone and anyone. It will be the first law mentioned in any discrimination law suit that has to do with work. Sadly the unions tend to side with players and will do everything possible to protect their players, they really could care less about the conduct. Why do you think the Union is the one that files the appeals on behalf of players when they get suspended for too many games.

I agree with you that it would be nice if there was more control over the conduct, and they have been cracking down a bit. But when a guy is that good...they don't care, they'll suspend you for a few games and then let you back on the field. The NFL and commissioner techinically work for the team owners, but even those guys don't want to see their best players get suspended. Each time they miss a game they lose money, be it with a loss or just less fans due to a missing player.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Equal opportunity has to do with everyone and anyone. It will be the first law mentioned in any discrimination law suit that has to do with work. Sadly the unions tend to side with players and will do everything possible to protect their players, they really could care less about the conduct. Why do you think the Union is the one that files the appeals on behalf of players when they get suspended for too many games.
> 
> I agree with you that it would be nice if there was more control over the conduct, and they have been cracking down a bit. But when a guy is that good...they don't care, they'll suspend you for a few games and then let you back on the field. The NFL and commissioner techinically work for the team owners, but even those guys don't want to see their best players get suspended. *Each time they miss a game they lose money, be it with a loss or just less fans due to a missing playe*r.


And this is why, I think the teams should not hire the guy, should hire someone else and give them the opportunity to grow into the position. It does not matter if Michael Vick can fly, if he isn't in the game he cannot give them a victory. Someone who does not care if his behavior lands him in jail, prison, ruins his career is someone who might not care if the league suspends him for this or that, someone who does not deserve to be on a team.

Owning a dog fighting facility is really not the same as being at a party and smoking a joint, or getting into a fight with a family member and getting arrested. It is not something that happened by accident or because he did not realize it was against the law. It was not a moment of passion. It was not a less then intelligent decision about who they went home with at night. It is not he-said, she-said or anyone trying to make a buck through exposure/extortion, blackmail. They did not paint the buildings out there black because they liked the color and to let everyone know where the dog fighting would be. It was not a bad decision made in the heat of the moment. 

Could Michael Vick have had a come-to-Jesus moment in prison, and now he realizes that torturing, killing, and fighting animals is not such a good thing? Maybe. If you really want to know what I think, I think Michael Vick was spoiled in College, maybe high school too because they wanted to win, win, win. And they could only do that if he was at the helm. He learned that he could do whatever he wanted, and they would make allowances for him. He was special. He made it as a professional, had plenty of money, and felt he was above the law. Any come-to-Jesus moment he had was about the consequences of getting caught, not about the crimes themselves. I don't hate him. I think he is a thug. His being hugged by HSUS, does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy. I do not think our penal system is set up to teach people to have compassion for victims, and to see how their actions caused suffering. I think the best that it can do is show people that if they do certain things, there are consequences. So the penal system is pretty much set up to encourage people to avoid consequences, hopefully by not participating in criminal behavior. It is not set up to change people's character.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think Michael Vick is an idiot.An that is just being nice. Yes, I like seeing him get hurt.I love dogs, and I am involved in rescue, so if I see someone abusing a dog in anyway, it will upset me and I would want see REAL justice being done. Sorry, what he got was a slap on the wrist, which is NOT what I consider, IMO, to be "he paid his debt to society." To me that is not enough. What he did to those dogs was illegal, stupid, disgusting, heartless, sensless, creul, and evil. 

I am a very forgiving person, but in this case, its going to take A LOT for me to forgive him. It will take time, if I even want to. Sorry, but I don't think he Vick is sorry for what he did. Since he is a celebrity, its hard to tell if he is sincere, for real. So unless I meet him face to face, and ask him if he is truly sorry for what he did, I won't believe him.

And yes, I do enjoy seeing him get hurt. Why?Because since, our legal system doesn't want to do anything, other players will. So for now, that is my way of know he is getting whyat he deserved. Yes, I was happy to know he got hurt. Call me evil all you want, but IMO, the justice system failed. And I enjoy it even better when its my team doing it. 

And don't give me, "its bad for the soul" nonsense. I obviously am doing quite fine, because I have a life and I don't have time to constantly think and worry about some low life loser and have other things to worry and think about and do to keep my life and insanity in check.

Anyone who hurts an animal, isn't worth my time and deserves servere punishment and I don't consider them human.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

It almost sounds like some folks feel that what Vick did to his dogs is worse than what some parents do to their kids or other people do to some of their victims.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> It almost sounds like some folks feel that what Vick did to his dogs is worse than what some parents do to their kids or other people do to some of their victims.


People who do these things to people, kill with torture, are subject to the death penalty in many places. When they are convicted, they get sentenced to a significant amount of time or death. Good riddance in my opinion. Animals are different then people, but torturing and killing animals should have far greater penalties than it currently does -- that is overall, not just because this dude is a professional football player.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> It almost sounds like some folks feel that what Vick did to his dogs is worse than what some parents do to their kids or other people do to some of their victims.


Did I say that? No. 

Dogs are innocent living things. Anyone who hurts a child is evil, anyone hurts another human being FOR PLEASURE is NOT someone I cosider human and deserve harsh punishments. Also in some cases, if someone who tortures and kills animals, more than likely they will move onto humans next.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> People who do these things to people, kill with torture, are subject to the death penalty in many places. When they are convicted, they get sentenced to a significant amount of time or death. Good riddance in my opinion. Animals are different then people, but torturing and killing animals should have far greater penalties than it currently does -- that is overall, not just because this dude is a professional football player.


I agree.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If Michael Vick (or anyone for that matter) did what he did to a human... He'd be either be on death row or spending the rest of his life in prison instead of just the slap on the wrist that he got.

And Jesse... I completely agree with every single word of your post. Exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier posts.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty positive that Vick has never publically spoken regret and remorse of killing and torturing dogs. Last I remember he canceled his appearance on Oprah because she was going to question him about it. He is promoting an end to dog fighting. He said he's made mistakes. Killing and torture is not a mistake.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sagelfn said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty positive that Vick has never publically spoken regret and remorse of killing and torturing dogs. Last I remember he canceled his appearance on Oprah because she was going to question him about it. He is promoting an end to dog fighting. He said he's made mistakes. Killing and torture is not a mistake.


I know he was a spokesperson for the human society and was going around to schools speaking against dog fighting and the important caring for your animals to kids. I think he's even come out saying he misses having dogs as pets and wants to own one again someday. 

Is he being sincere? Who knows.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> The NFL isn't the employer in this case, and they can't make a rule that states you can't hire a felon because that would most definately be against the law (equal opportunity). Of course, if someone with the same talents is going for a job against a felon with those same credentials the one without a record will probably win out, but Vick is clearly a much better quarterback than most people.
> 
> The Eagles I'm sure thought about the public scrutiny and the fact that they would lose some fans, but I guarantee that for every fan they lost, they have sold 10 Vick jerseys. Like it was mentioned before, the rest of the world already forgot about what he did, you don't even hear it mentioned on telecasts of the Eagles games anymore.
> 
> But now I get what you're saying, its up to the company and you just don't like the fact that they are allowing these players in. At first I thought you were talking about laws the government should set forth.


This is not true. EEO laws do NOT protect convicted felons. 



martemchik said:


> Equal opportunity has to do with everyone and anyone. It will be the first law mentioned in any discrimination law suit that has to do with work. Sadly the unions tend to side with players and will do everything possible to protect their players, they really could care less about the conduct. Why do you think the Union is the one that files the appeals on behalf of players when they get suspended for too many games.


EEO are federal laws prevent discrimination based on race, color, sex, religion, national origin, sexual preference and disabilities. Companies, businesses and government agencies are allowed to discriminate based on a criminal background check. Otherwise police departments would be required to hire convicted murderers and schools would be required to hire convicted pedophiles. 

Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination: Questions And Answers


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty positive that Vick has never publically spoken regret and remorse of killing and torturing dogs. Last I remember he canceled his appearance on Oprah because she was going to question him about it. He is promoting an end to dog fighting. He said he's made mistakes. Killing and torture is not a mistake.


I agree with Paul he has spoken with the H$U$. But never actually admitted that he is sorry for what he did. There is a video on Youtube of a guy who adopted one fo Vick's dogs. Vick said he wanted to see his dogs and how they were doing. So this guy was letting him do that, but Vick basically snubbed the guy.

Here is the video:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Watched the vid, not surprised


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Anyone who for one millisecond actually believes the Vick has one once of regret, sorrow, or shame for what he did or that he has changed and actually wants to to helps end dog fighting, needs to have their head examined and get on some serious psych meds to help with their delusions. 

He is ONLY sorry he got caught, he is ONLY sorry his reputation got tarnished, he is ONLY sorry he had to start over. He only does those public service ads and rubs elbows with the HSUS because it is court ordered and he is trying to clean up his rep. He doesn't care about those dogs or what he did. He only cares about how getting caught affected him. He is nothing but a steaming pile of dog doo.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Did I say that? No.
> 
> Dogs are innocent living things. Anyone who hurts a child is evil, anyone hurts another human being FOR PLEASURE is NOT someone I cosider human and deserve harsh punishments. Also in some cases, if someone who tortures and kills animals, more than likely they will move onto humans next.


 
Did I say that you said that?


Harsher than what a lot of folks think Vick should have gotten?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> Anyone who for one millisecond actually believes the Vick has one once of regret, sorrow, or shame for what he did or that he has changed and actually wants to to helps end dog fighting, needs to have their head examined and get on some serious psych meds to help with their delusions.
> 
> He is ONLY sorry he got caught, he is ONLY sorry his reputation got tarnished, he is ONLY sorry he had to start over. He only does those public service ads and rubs elbows with the HSUS because it is court ordered and he is trying to clean up his rep. He doesn't care about those dogs or what he did. He only cares about how getting caught affected him. He is nothing but a steaming pile of dog doo.


 
*You sure do seem to have a LOT of information about someone that you have never met! (Or have you met/know him and I am mistakingly making a bad assumption here?)*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DharmasMom said:


> Anyone who for one millisecond actually believes the Vick has one once of regret, sorrow, or shame for what he did or that he has changed and actually wants to to helps end dog fighting, needs to have their head examined and get on some serious psych meds to help with their delusions.
> 
> He is ONLY sorry he got caught, he is ONLY sorry his reputation got tarnished, he is ONLY sorry he had to start over. He only does those public service ads and rubs elbows with the HSUS because it is court ordered and he is trying to clean up his rep. He doesn't care about those dogs or what he did. He only cares about how getting caught affected him. He is nothing but a steaming pile of dog doo.


He is an idiot, lets get together with Jessie and LucyDog and hate him together.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *You sure do seem to have a LOT of information about someone that you have never met! (Or have you met/know him and I am mistakingly making a bad assumption here?)*



I don't need to meet him and I doubt I could stomach being in the same room with him anyway. I can barely stomach knowing I am on the same planet. But please, show me one shred of evidence, one iota of proof that he is REALLY sorry, that he has actually changed. There is none. None of that canned, scripted crap he did with the HSUS counts either. 

He cancelled the interview with Oprah, he walked away in that video when he had a chance to see what has become of one of his dogs. He has never actually followed up on any of those dogs. Why hasn't he given money to the new rehab center that has been set up on his old property where the dog fighting occurred?? Why hasn't he actually donated some this outlandish salary he is now earning to saving other dogs?? He can't own dogs but he can certainly donate to rescues or do PSAs for rescues and dog adoption. If he really cares about dogs and has had a change of heart he could and would be doing a lot more.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> He is an idiot, lets get together with Jessie and LucyDog and hate him together.


I'll bring the voodoo doll.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> I'll bring the voodoo doll.


He most certainly gets NONE of my brownies!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Did I say that you said that?
> 
> 
> Harsher than what a lot of folks think Vick should have gotten?


Your post pretty much said that.

Yes, he deserves a harsher punishment.Alot harsher than he got.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Aaannnddd the jerk got his hand broken today. GOOD!!! :happyboogie:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)




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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh well...

Love the photo and caption, that was funny.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The dog killer broke his hand during his game today


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> The dog killer broke his hand during his game today


Aw, just his hand? I'm waiting for him to break his neck and live like a vegetable for a year before he dies of something like a bladder infection.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There is this thing called Karma, and sometimes it can be a bitch.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't know if anyone saw his post game interview, but he was crying (not literally) about how the refs never give him any calls and how he's always getting hit after he throws (which is a penalty). 

There must be a lot of refs that own dogs because it's definitely true. He really never gets any call go his way. Every play he ends up on the ground.... so much fun to watch.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I don't know if anyone saw his post game interview, but he was crying (not literally) about how the refs never give him any calls and how he's always getting hit after he throws (which is a penalty).
> 
> There must be a lot of refs that own dogs because it's definitely true. He really never gets any call go his way. Every play he ends up on the ground.... so much fun to watch.


I'd do the same thing if I was a ref. LOL


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well publicly complaining about the referees will certainly not help, LOL!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The crazy dude's hand is not broken, its a bruised hand.


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