# Why we (GSD owners) ARE jerks.



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Today, I was a jerk. Well, I was a jerk inside my skin. But I tried not to let it come out. Not sure if that makes me a jerk or not. I mean if you are a jerk in your heart, you're a jerk, right?

Ok, so I went to take Dolly to PetsMart to get groomed. I handed her over, and went off to find some training open house across town. Over. Back again, and walking around the store like a zombie trying to wait for the dog to be done. I mentioned going and doing something because I didn't plan to be in the store for quite so long. Because, being in the store makes my jerk-tendencies erupt. 

Anyhow, this woman had 3 dachsunds in there. They were reactive and barking at everyone and everything. Loud, sharp, aggressive barks that hurt my ears as well as making me cringe. Little kids were being barked at like that, and everyone was just matter of fact, the parents allowing the little kids to pet these monsters. One of the groomers came out on a trip to the front and stopped and got barked at and then told the lady how cute they all were, bent down, and started petting them.

This went on. 

A couple of times, I wanted to go over to the woman, grab the leashes out of her hand and drag her dogs out into the parking lot and throw the lot of them under a bus. But I didn't. It wasn't their fault. So then I wanted to drag the lady out into the parking lot and throw her under a bus. But I didn't. My dogs need me. I can't take care of them in the pokey.

After being barked at quite viciously trying to get into the grooming salon to collect my paperwork so I could pay, I said to one of the groomers, "If that was my shepherds doing that, no one would put up with that, they would ask me to leave." She nodded noncomittedly. Is that a word? Whatever. Anyway, there was nothing she could do.

Anyway, I collected Dolly and we stared walking down the aisle. Little kids were shepherded away from the big bad doggy. A dog that allowed the vet to scrape the tarter off of her teeth last week. The wiener dogs were in the main drag headed toward the door, and I was following with Dolly who was being perfectly behaved. The monsters saw her and started barking and aggressing, we followed quietly. 

The woman turned and saw us, and quickly took her dogs down an aisle to get them away from us. Which would have been fine, and had she walked down that aisle, I would have never made this post. But she didn't. She pulled in behind us so that these three dogs were straining on their leashes barking and snarling toward my dog's hind end. 

Nope, this is not what we are going to do. We are not going to be chased out of PetsMart by a pack of unruly little dogs. I turned down an aisle so that they could pass me. 

But why do people do shtuff like that??? 

And everyone thinks its cute or acceptable because they are small??? What's up with that. If you can't control your dogs, if your dog isn't trained, one at a time. Ok, ok, I've taken as many as three back to the groomer in one trip. But we went straight back there and came straight out. This lady was hanging out with her dogs acting like that!

**********************************************************************

Here is another way we are jerks, kind of. 

We tell people not to get dogs. Because people should be stable, have a job, be able to support their dogs, have the time that the dog won't be crated for lots of hours, be able to buy from a breeder, and so on and so forth, ok, good right?

But then we show videos of that dude saying over and over again, "Get your own dog!" We do not have to let people pet them, we don't have to answer questions about them, get your own dog!!! 

The reason I don't rush up to service dogs or at least stare at them is because I have my own dog. If I didn't I would have my hands on other people's dogs. I know that makes me an awful person, but we cannot have it both ways folks. We cannot expect people to wait until they are _ready_ to own a dog, and until then we can hold our noses up in the air and scorn their fascination with critters. We have to share dogs. Not dogs that need muzzles and flack jackets to be out in public, but when we have nice solid dogs, we have to be willing to allow people to pet them, to accept their complements, to answer their questions -- even the ones about whether they are mixes or whether we got them at the shelter. We can't hold the dogs hostage, and only allow people from some elite club to be worthy of looking upon them or asking about them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I stay out of petsmart.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

No... A jerk would have let their dog ingest the 'hot' dog...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I always let people pet my dogs at Petco, Pet Smart, the veterinarians and at the dog parks, basically places where people gather, regardless of purpose, and share a love of animals.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I don't think a gsd will make me a jerk. I think the fact that normal people annoy me makes me a jerk. I'm trying hard to be a good Christian, but some people are rude, people are selfish, people are self serving and self centered. I'll hold the door, say hello call people that are serving me sir and ma'am. But when I'm not given respect in turn, I will say something. Therefore, I am a jerk.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> I don't think a gsd will make me a jerk. I think the fact that normal people annoy me makes me a jerk. I'm trying hard to be a good Christian, but people are rude, people are selfish, people are self serving and self centered. I'll hold the door, say hello call people that are serving me sir and ma'am. But when I'm not given respect in turn, I will say something. Therefore, I am a jerk.


SOME people are rude, selfish, self serving and self centered, there are plenty that are not.

You have to bear in mind that some that aren't so pleasant may have just been diagnosed with cancer, buried a mother three days ago, lost their job, been unexpectedly served with divorce papers, etc.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Nice rant! What you went through is pretty much a daily occurrence around here. Tons of dogs simply out of control, but people think their behaviour is cute. I keep walking, Liza stays in heel, my sanity remains.

As far as the petting debate goes, I'm fine with adults petting my dog, but I tell most kids no (with some exceptions). Adults that bend down towards Liza tend to invite an open season on face licking, and if they're comfortable with that, so am I. Kids are too unstable, both physically and emotionally.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I've had this happen to me. A few times.
I try not to bring my dogs into Petsmart or other places.. But it's tempting sometimes because my dogs DO behave. 
When things like this happen, and then people laugh because the "big bad" little dog is challenging my large dog, I have to hold it in. Part of me wants to say, "get um" but I don't. 
I normally command my dog into a down and let them pass. I will also give my dog a "leave it command" loud enough so that they know not only is my dog extremely obedient, (but the jerk in me wants them to think.. What would happen if I didn't give that command). 
At the end of the day I make sure that my dog is the obedient one.. 
Then I go home, complain to my husband and we talk about how I should have just let the dog eat them.. And I feel better.


As far as petting goes. I'll let just about anyone pet Titan unless I get a weird vibe. As long as kids behave, they can pet. 
Titan feels everyone was put on this earth to pet him. 
With jasmine I tell people she's aggressive and before they can tel me how great they are with dogs and how all dogs love them I'm already half way down the next isle.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I let someone pet Dolly today. 

Frankly, she was the only one that wanted too. Usually more people like to pet GSDs. Today must have been an odd evening.

Which was sad, because, she was really, nice, and sweet, freshly groomed, etc. 

But the Dachsunds were getting plenty of people oohing and ahhing over them. Maybe it was my Jerk Face that was keeping everyone back. Not sure. 

Dolly was doing great though.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

OMG so true!!!! I feel your pain, really


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The little yapping dogs are annoying whether I have my dog with me or not. If its just me with no dog what do you do when a little dachsund or toy poodle is barking and pulling to get at you. You can't smack it down or try to teach the dog manners. Either behavior would make you a jerk. If Rosko is with me I don't really mind too much. He usually just stands there looking at the dogs tongue hanging out with a puzzled look on his face like I am just a pup but seriously. But what concerns me even more is what I witnessed 2 weeks ago at a local pet store. I had walked Rosko in to pick up some food. At 7 months Rosko has very good leash training and has been very socialized. (He behaves very well in stores). As we were walking around this 17ish yr old girl comes around the aisle with an I'm guessing a 1 1/2 yr old Akita The akita was out of control. Had no obvious socialization towards dogs or humans. As I tell rosko to sit so I could position myself between him and the akita the girl tells me. Sorry he is still in training. I look at my 12 yr old son as he says so is Rosko but he doesn't do that. So we left the pet store and went into Smith farm store 3 doors down so I could let my son have some leash time with Rosko in public. After about 20 minutes as were walking out the door I look over to see this couple walking two 90 pound gsd's towards the pet store door. Both dogs were dragging their handler across the parking lot with their tiny retractable leashes. I stood and stared in awe of the beauty of the dogs. But also in disbelief of exactly how little control these dogs were under. Some people have no business bringing their dogs in public.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Yeah, humans are jerks. All of us, really, at one time or another. I'm ashamed of how often I'm a jerk in my heart. And utterly humiliated at how often it actually gets expressed.

It's interesting, actually. What your first story seems to boil down to is this: You worked hard over a long time to have a well-behaved dog that you could take into public, but you felt people didn't appreciate you for that. Another person brought some annoying, poorly-behaved dogs into public, and the public didn't seem to mind. Also, they were ugly dogs and yours was pretty. You did things right; she did things wrong. But she didn't have to pay for it, and you didn't get any admiration.

To stretch an analogy, the Elder Brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The one who stays home and does all the good things, and is angry that his dad throws a party for the prodigal.

Funny how common that feeling is. That sense of, "I followed the rules, and I should be properly rewarded for it. You failed to do so, and you should feel ashamed." It raises the obvious question: why are you following the rules? To receive praise and acclaim? Or because the rules are inherently good and useful? Or because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't?

GSDs tend to be hard-working, attractive, protective, loyal, and eager to please and learn the rules, and a little bit merciless. People who appreciate these traits are more likely to choose a GSD. And these are--roughly--the traits you were showing when you were "jerky". 

(Also interesting, how often on these boards people become very adamant that others should Follow The Rules of Owning/Buying/Raising/Training a GSD. And how merciless they can be when others are openly careless of the rules. But if the reprobate repents and falls into line, and takes his proper place at the bottom of the pack, all is friendly again.)

All of us are jerks, but it's interesting how many different ways it can manifest.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

That happened in petco once. There was a small poodle type dog all dressed up. Kaleb saw it and went down on his front legs, butt in the air tail wagging being friendly. Trying to get down to the poodles level. The dog started barking aggressively at Kaleb. Well, Kaleb did react, but I was the only one who got talked to. I'm guessing because my dog was larger and had the scarier bark. I no longer let him meet dogs we don't know. I'm also a jerk, because nobody I don't know pets my dog.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

I do feel like a jerk kinda, when I constantly have to ask people to PLEASE leash their dogs that we come across on the trails. Only about one person in my town (besides me lol) has a well trained dog with an actual recall and he puts her in a very nice tight heel when he sees another dog. I live in an off leash friendly area, and I leash my dogs the I see someone coming to be polite (and thats kinda the unspoken rule for the locals), and in case the approaching dog turns out to be aggressive, that way I can get my dog behind me and defend him rather than having him run for the hills. 
Now that I have two dogs its especially tricky because the new guy is terrified of people. So if someone's dog does run up to us and they have to pry their dog off of mine, thats closer than my new guy can handle and it scares him to death, and sets back his socialization a lot. 

And its just stressful in general for my GSD to have dogs rushing at him left and right when he has been attacked quite a few times before. 

In general about 1/4 of the off leash dogs I come across are unfriendly, and the rest still will tackle my leashed dog. Some people have packs of 4 dogs with questionable friendliness and its really not fun to have them all running at my dogs. I feel bad when I ask people with friendly dogs to leash them, sometimes I just say please make sure they don't approach us instead. (As I walk way far off the path to get away from them.) 

I feel like a little scrooge sometimes. At least now that I got my GSD/Husky who looks pretty wolflike, the small dog owners have started thanking me profusely when I tell them that they really need to not let their small dogs come up to us.

But people besides me are so casual with their dogs, either they're the ones whose dogs are causing problems and attacking dogs, and they just don't really care that much, or they just have unruly, happy, off leash dogs and they really don't care or think about what trouble their dogs night get into or cause people. 
Well, I, the only GSD person I know of here, care about my dog and his training and his safety and I care whether or not he is bothering people. And it makes me feel like a jerk sometimes.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Interesting post, faith5. Definitely some truth there.

The consequences part really rings true. I think most of us are aware of what an untrained, unsocialized and out of control GSD is capable of. The flip side of the coin is that when an untrained, unsocialized and out of control dachshund (or whatever it may be) "lets loose" on a GSD and provokes a response, we all know who will be blamed as the "bad dog," and few of us want to deal with that headache. (I happen to know that from personal experience in that very situation - luckily wrapped up as well as I could have hoped for.) 

So every time we, as the "good" owners are exposed to untrained dogs, we're put at measurable risk, through no fault of our own. And, of course, we have to take the extra care and go out of OUR way to avoid the problematic dogs & owners. It's frustrating. And even then, there are crazy people with problematic dogs - that know they have problematic dogs - who will intentionally approach and chase you "so the dogs can say hi" as you're trying to walk away in the opposite direction. 

The double standard of thinking aggressive behaviour is "cute" when it's coming from a small dog, vs horrible and scary when it's coming from a large dog is definitely upsetting.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To me, you would have been a jerk if you had let your dog eat a doxie for lunch. Because it would have been quite messy and upsetting for children to see. 

I've had someone holding their doxie above the level of the late Barker Sisters the first - and, turn around to have the doxie stare at the Barker Sisters. Buddy, you are asking for trouble. If not now, in the long run. 

But regarding the original experience -- people, even dog people, just don't know their heehaw from their elbow... Wanting to dope slap someone doesn't make you a jerk - sometimes (and only sometimes) acting on that wish might make you a jerk.

[And I am not someone who tells someone not to get a dog because of their circumstances, finances etc. I got my first dog when I was in college and struggling financially. Get the dog and figure out how to care for it, how to get it what it needs.]


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You must have radiated disgust and kept people at bay. Choosing another groomer maybe? It happens to me too when I see people oohing and aahing over nasty little dogs, poor dogs who never had the training and socialization our dogs have had. I had expected that this was going to happen with my Collie pup but it must be me why it doesn't.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... must be both the New Year and a GSD thing! We actually have well trained well behaved dogs ... and we are the bad guys! I pretty much can sympathize with your feeling of utter contempt for the freaking clueless, and incompetent! Your dog was under control and your the bad guy?? 

My encounter with the freaking clueless, is slightly different but the owner was "equally freaking inept!"

As it happens ... today Rocky and I did our parts in at least demonstrating to some "flexi" walking out of control "Poodle mix thing" what a well behaved dog looks like! 

Rocky and I on our walk the plan is to go around the corner and continue our planned direction. Rocky "this time on his" "intimation "Help em harness" by my side. 

I'm listening to Jell Gellman"what would Jeff Do" on youtube on my phone one ear bud. And listening for "trouble" and scanning around visually looking for dogs. 

I notice "Rocky" go ears up his head pointing to my right?? Floppy (ears) Boxer guy here so "I do notice those ear pointed alert" things with these GSD's .... that is pretty cool! 

Rocky does not make a sound but clearly he has seen something?? So I look left ... and there is some "fool" (an assumption on my part based on his behavior) with two dogs on flexi's, one of which is out in front 5 feet, straining for all he is worth to pull toward the corner where "Rocky" and I just appeared! 

They were maybe two houses down at this point. The guy was "clearly not going to change his course of direction" I saw them early because of "Rocky" and when we got to the corner I called a "audible" as it were.

I have "zero" tolerance for "fools!" So at the corner, it was Stay (may or may not have been needed??) and "OK" and across the street we go! Other than the "alert" Rocky had no problem with the "audible" he did his job. 

The guy did give me the "impression" that he was "actually" expecting some kind of "I thought your dog was friendly" Hook up ??? He never freaking slowed down!! By god his dog was dragging him "that direction and that is the way he is going!!!!

My relaxing walk did not include, kicking some little dog in the face or if the dog got past me. "Prying him from "Rocky's" jaws (got stitches last time I did that ... different situation, breaking up a fight) and thanks to "Rocky" and my knowing my dog it was avoided. 

So I have no idea what the guy's take away from GSD's owners was?? But what he saw was a very well trained dog! 

So I have no "idea" if I am a jerk GSD owner or not?? But I do know I did that guy a favor by not "insisting" on my god given right to continue in my chosen direction!! I mean WTH?? Anyway it's a new year and apparently "GSD" owners are being put to the test by the freaking clueless!

So ... who's up next???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Faith5, 

Yes, I think you hit it there. I have my dog under control (however she got that way), and she is STILL perceived as the bad guy, when these little monsters are totally out of control and seen as cute. 

I am bringing out one dog that I can control, they had three and no control at all. Yep, that is big brother, good brother, prodigal son stuff there, I guess.

Normally, I am pretty accepting of poor behavior in dog classes, because I know those owners are trying to get their dog from here to there, and their dog needs to be there. But, there is just no excuse to hang around in a pet store with three dogs if they are not under control.

Of course last week I took three dogs in to be groomed, and I called ahead so someone could come out and help me with at least one of them. And I had someone else walk one of them out with me. They were not trained. Ok, Jenna was, and I let the lady take Jenna, but the two youngsters were not trained. But it was in and out, not hanging out. In fact, I would have, usually do make two or three trips to the car, so that I can bring the dogs in one by one, and I take them back out the same way. I just had the Honda instead, and that really didn't work well that way.

Anyhow, it really isn't that I worked hard to get my dog where she is. I haven't. Not really. Oh, when I got her back at about 6 months old, she was broken. She wanted nothing to do with people. They had busted up her elbow, and the boy had teased her and teased her. She was only interested in the dogs. I had to let her heal, both in body, and I had to give her time to forget what happened and to trust me. 

I fed her daily, and cleaned up after her. I expected nothing out of her, I changed her name back to what it was before she left. And day after day, I came with food and water, and did not force my presence on her, I just gave it to her and let her be. She healed. Her body healed. And then she became more and more interested in me as well as the other dogs. 

I waited about a year, maybe more. I then took her to classes. I used treats, and praise. Lots of praise. And I used my nieces too. They are amazing. It wasn't a lot of work. It was a lot of hands off, and let her come to me. Let her tell me she wanted more. Let her tell me she wanted to be around the girls. 

About 3 years ago, she got her CGC, but I did not go further with her. I could get a title or two with her, but I was not in a position to show. So we didn't. 2 years ago, I took her to be groomed, and she was seriously underweight. I took her to the vet and we did bloodwork. She had some SIBO. I got the stuff from Chewy.com and she improved. A week ago, she was up to 68 pounds and she looks awesome. 

Getting a bit gray now, and not six yet. But she is sweet, and confident, and good with people and not weirded out by dogs at all, and obedient, and I couldn't ask for a better dog. But other than a few classes, years ago, I really haven't done a lot to get her where she is. I haven't worked hard with he to get her there. In fact, I let her be, and let her mature, and let her let me know when she was ready to move forward.

Maybe a good handler could have made a superstar out of her. I dunno. We are pretty ok with who we are though.

But I wasn't going to let the small dogs chase us out of there barking and snarling at us. Nope. Dolly wouldn't have minded. But I did.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I think we can be perceived as jerks just because our dogs are well trained/under control. 

I try to guard against the "you shoulds" and try the "I woulds" to try not to put anyone's feathers up when I am talking to people I perceive to be in need of a little training. But usually, I say nothing, because what people need to hear, they don't want to hear, and the dog will suffer for that. I suppose some of that comes across in the facial expressions and body language as haughty. 

So even if I am trying to bite my tongue because no one asked me, I am still a jerk because my face/body betrays me and my trained dog convicts me. 

I suppose I should start a twelve step self-help group for haughty, self-absorbed, dog-jerks. Maybe we can teach our dogs to act up a little so that everyone else won't feel so defensive.



Chip18 said:


> LOL ... must be both the New Year and a GSD thing! We actually have well trained well behaved dogs ... and we are the bad guys! I pretty much can sympathize with your feeling of utter contempt for the freaking clueless, and incompetent! Your dog was under control and your the bad guy??
> 
> My encounter with the freaking clueless, is slightly different but the owner was "equally freaking inept!"
> 
> ...


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Hmm. Having just read the OP, a few thoughts come to mind.

I never thought of it like that, but I do share my dog. Unless she is giving off a clear signal that she's not into it, I am happy to have most people meet her as long as they can follow instructions (if they're kids who need said instructions). I usually answer questions and let her bask in others' compliments and let them enjoy meeting her.

We get some avoidance by the general public. This happens more often on the street when we're out on neighborhood walks, though. A lot of people usually want to meet her at a pet store. I chalk it up to a slightly different subset of people at the pet store (people who probably like animals and who expect to encounter them in a pet store, versus the general public as a whole).

I don't think you're a jerk if you're aware and practice restraint. You're human. If you were a jerk, you would have said something snippy to the doxie owner or kicked one of them, or you would have let Dolly have one for lunch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But I _wanted _to say something snippy. I wanted to tell her she shouldn't have those aggressive beasts out in public. I wanted to tell her that they would EAT the little children. I wanted to tell her they would turn on her. I wanted to tell her that they should be put down and every other nasty comment that people say to people who have GSDs or Pit Bulls or Rottweilers. 

I didn't maybe for a few reasons:
1) I can write up a storm, but I can't get words to flow out of my mouth in the moment to save my life;

2) It could be me and mine someday that deserves a good kick in the rear;

3) And, at the end of the day, she just wouldn't have gotten it. Not at all. She sees her babies as some mothers see (or fail to see) their children. And she would never hook up the application of the abuse GSD owners get to her dogs.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

> Yes, I think you hit it there. I have my dog under control (however she got that way), and she is STILL perceived as the bad guy, when these little monsters are totally out of control and seen as cute.


Yup. When I was car shopping earlier this year, I hated the process and the only thing that made it bearable is the dealers around here allow dogs, so I was using it as practice for my puppy. While they played all their secretive pricing games, and shoveled pounds of paperwork, I got to play sit/down/wait/watch with my little girl. Made the whole situation more tolerable, and I didn't feel like I wasted hours of my life. I was really quite proud of her, sitting calmly under the desk while we signed our lives away.

On the final day when we picked up the car from the dealership, someone else was there with a tiny fuzzball of a dog, tucked into the front of the woman's sweater. She marched up to me, and her dog started snarling and going nuts. I asked her to please stay back, that I was practicing manners with my puppy. She got very offended, offered a few choice words, and sat down at a sales desk nearby. A few minutes later, the salesperson reached over to pet her dog, and got bit. DREW BLOOD! And yet the other salespeople chuckled awkwardly and went to find biscuits for the "cute little guy". 

You know darn well, if one of our dogs bit someone in a car dealership, and drew blood, all kinds of crazy would break loose.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yep, even if one of our puppies drew blood it would be seven different kinds of ugly. 

If we protect our dogs and everyone from our dogs we are jerks. 
If we let our dogs bite people we are jerks. 
If we breathe in and breathe out while owning a GSD then we are jerks. 
We're jerks. 

We must struggle not to let that depress us too much.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> We must struggle not to let that depress us too much.


Indeed. I think that's why we compulsively band together.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't even count how many people now approach me when I have the GSDs out. We did go through a period where they would go the other way and avoid them, maybe it's the area? Most people(if not kids) approach because they love the breed or they had one when they were younger. That one minute they get get to talk about their childhood dog makes a difference for them. It's a trip down memory lane for them. I love taking mine out and showing the world what a great breed. Today all 3 of the GSDs are going to the vet, which is awful, because that waiting room is always loaded with small dogs on flexi leashes barking, some don't even have leashes and I can't even count how many have ran up to my dog and I had to block them. I don't evem attempt to be quiet anymore when this happens, it's just plain rude and ignorant, so I guess at that moment I do turn into a jerk....


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I had Varik at Petco on the toy aisle (he likes to do his own shopping). There were 4 or 5 dogs and about 6 people in that small space. Varik did great, but I looked down and a lady had let her young dog pull right up until he was practically underneath my dog. I asked Varik to reposition himself and the lady said, 'my puppy loves dogs'. I politely told her it wasn't wise to let your dog initiate contact with strange dogs. They may not care for other dogs in their space.

I'm a jerk *sigh*


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> But I _wanted _to say something snippy. I wanted to tell her she shouldn't have those aggressive beasts out in public. I wanted to tell her that they would EAT the little children. I wanted to tell her they would turn on her. I wanted to tell her that they should be put down and every other nasty comment that people say to people who have GSDs or Pit Bulls or Rottweilers.
> 
> I didn't maybe for a few reasons:
> 1) I can write up a storm, but I can't get words to flow out of my mouth in the moment to save my life;
> ...


Maybe you wanted to, but you didn't. Plenty of people lack that kind of brain to mouth filter!

I see what you're saying but maybe we define "jerk" differently. I don't go to the thoughts as much because we all have thoughts that are less than kind. It's human.

To the point being made about how we act differently (on my phone so too lazy to go back, reread, quote correctly), I think we do act differently because we have to. We have big dogs with a reputation. Some of it is bad and some of it is good but it seems to all center around the dog's size, brains, and capacity to do things. (Sorry, I keep thinking of Fry from Futurama: "Stop doing things!") They're strong, powerful, capable dogs. We know what we have and know that we have to protect the dogs from the world to a certain extent. Which is why we can be so guarded with other dogs and their owners, or with the general public, sometimes.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

selzer said:


> Faith5,
> 
> Yes, I think you hit it there. I have my dog under control (however she got that way), and she is STILL perceived as the bad guy, when these little monsters are totally out of control and seen as cute.
> 
> ...


Oh, Selzer, I think you are wrong when you say you did nothing for your girl to get her where she is. I think you did everything for her.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First a friendly Happy New Year to you Sue! 

Second, agree with you on the poorly behaved little dog deal. One thing I've found is that performing a little OB in front of the little monster dogs is a good way to show who has the real problem. It's interesting to observe the reaction of the little yapper dog owners. They either get mad/embarrassed and leave, or if they have some humility say something like "I wish I could train my dogs to do that". That can open the door to a positive conversation. If you have the time. I use the yappers to proof OB. . If I'm in a bad mood or in a hurry I do what you do, bite my tongue and move on.

Third, I don't agree 100% with your comments on petting dogs in public. It's not because I only want "elite" certain people to pet my dog. It's that I don't want people petting my dog dependent on certain situations. If I am training for focus with distractions it's not personal, ask, if I say no I am not being elitist, one example. Right now with Stihl, people are reinforcing, accidentally, some things like jumping I don't want him to do. So until I've got him more "proofed" I'm not going to let people I don't know touch him. Again nothing personal.

Fourth, what that don't pet my dog trainer was getting at was a cultural meme in general that people have a "right" to pet my dog. No they don't. Yeah he was coarse about it but the problem has gotten so bad that it takes some direct and salty language if you will. 

So there's a continuum on the whole strangers petting dogs situation, it's not black and white. It varies depending on the context of what the dog owner is trying to accomplish and the situation. For that reason I don't think equating it on the whole as some sort of "elitism" is fair.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Third, I don't agree 100% with your comments on petting dogs in public. It's not because I only want "elite" certain people to pet my dog. It's that I don't want people petting my dog dependent on certain situations. If I am training for focus with distractions it's not personal, ask, if I say no I am not being elitist, one example. Right now with Stihl, people are reinforcing, accidentally, some things like jumping I don't want him to do. So until I've got him more "proofed" I'm not going to let people I don't know touch him. Again nothing personal.
> 
> Fourth, what that don't pet my dog trainer was getting at was a cultural meme in general that people have a "right" to pet my dog. No they don't. Yeah he was coarse about it but the problem has gotten so bad that it takes some direct and salty language if you will.
> 
> So there's a continuum on the whole strangers petting dogs situation, it's not black and white. It varies depending on the context of what the dog owner is trying to accomplish and the situation. For that reason I don't think equating it on the whole as some sort of "elitism" is fair.


Wait, what? People actually think they are entitled to pet other people's dogs? What meme is this? That's like another planet. I would say 99% of people ask me first if they can pet her. The only real exception is at the dog park, when everyone is kind of freely interacting and you have to expect that because it's an off leash park. If I or my dog were not okay with that, we wouldn't be going to the dog park.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and I'll insert a little brag here on the petting the dog deal. We spent quite a bit of time in Lowes yesterday trying to order some cabinets. A rather lengthy process I discovered. Anyhow I had been running so many errands all day hadn't done much with Stihl so I took him with us. He was great! I out his "in training" vest on. I had several people ask very politely if they could pet him. I said, in a friendly tone of voice, no I am training but thank you for asking. A few of the people asked questions or told me about their shepherd and said very nice compliments about how good my boy was being. A couple of people acted a bit fearful but I give them plenty of room. 

So it was very positive for the people we chatted with and for Stihl too! 

When I think about it, if my dogs are behaving, the majority of our encounters out in public are positive and friendly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*sigh* Yes. We've had some lengthy discussions on this in the past. There's a couple of reasons it's a problem, one is the sense of entitlement that anyone should be able to pet a dog in public. In those discussions many, many examples have been provided.

I do think it is improving though, because of education and push back against it.


See my post above, which I was slowly typing on my iPad while you were posting.






WateryTart said:


> Wait, what? People actually think they are entitled to pet other people's dogs? What meme is this? That's like another planet. I would say 99% of people ask me first if they can pet her. The only real exception is at the dog park, when everyone is kind of freely interacting and you have to expect that because it's an off leash park. If I or my dog were not okay with that, we wouldn't be going to the dog park.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *sigh* Yes. We've had some lengthy discussions on this is the past.
> 
> I do think it is improving though, because of education and push back against it.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but that's just crazy talk. I would ask if it was another GSD, a pit, or a Golden Retriever. It isn't my dog! Most people afford me/my dog the same courtesy. Isn't it basic manners to ask before you touch other people's things, living or not? How is this a discussion?


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

We took Ranger to Pet Value for a do-it-yourself bath on New Years Eve. When we got there there was another GSD getting a bath and the people at the front desk suggested we wait before using the other tub. As the other GSD was leaving we passed each other, no problems from either dog. Just mutual admiration from the owners. As we were bathing Ranger a couple showed up with a little poodlish dog - not sure of the breed - and started bathing her in the tub next to Ranger. It seemed friendly but it was barking at Ranger. After the bath My husband and I tried to keep Ranger away from the little barker but she was on a flexi leash and the owners were determined that she say "hi" to Ranger. Oy vey, why? Luckily Ranger behaved just fine and the people and dog were friendly but sometimes Ranger barks in a very aggressive way and if he had guess who would have been in trouble?

I don't know why people think it is cute when little dogs bark. I do think the tend to bark more and it is tougher to stop them but when they start barking it should not be greeted with acceptance. Our neighbor has a sheltie that barks and barks and she just leaves it out in the yard - i guess she thinks it is cute. We, her neighbors, are not amused.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

WateryTart said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just crazy talk. I would ask if it was another GSD, a pit, or a Golden Retriever. It isn't my dog! Most people afford me/my dog the same courtesy. Isn't it basic manners to ask before you touch other people's things, living or not? How is this a discussion?


 There was a thread about the video Sue refers to in addition to many other threads, usually centered on public policies banning dogs because some one reached out, touched or grabbed a dog at a farmers market or event, got bit and dogs were banned< truth. We discussed why there are less restrictions on dogs in many Euro countries and what drives the differences. In those threads many people shared their experiences, thoughts and reasoning. If you are interested you can pull the threads up via a search.

I've had those experiences too. Though as I said I think it's getting better and having a "in training vest" helps too.

Maybe you didn't participate in those threads but it's not "crazy talk", sorry.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's one story that didn't happen to me, I witnessed it in person though.

A couple was walking their Golden (beautiful well behaved on a nice loose leash walk too).

They were on the paved path. They passed a group of people having a picnic, adults and children. 

They called to the dog, the dog owners looked, smiled but kept on the path. So one of the adult men at the table got up, walked to the couple and their dog, holding a container of food and then literally put the container of food under the dogs nose. They tried to lure the dog off the path. They walked along side the dog for about five or six strides attempting to distract the dog. 

I stood still and watched this transpire, admittedly with quite bit of dismay. The couple with the golden quickened the pace and the well trained dog stayed by the side of his owners and picnic guy gave up.

So nothing bad happened but it was a well trained golden in that case. Further, imagine what that adult was teaching the children of (in)appropriate behavior around strange dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There was a thread about the video Sue refers to in addition to many other threads, usually centered on public policies banning dogs because some one reached out, touched or grabbed a dog at a farmers market or event, got bit and dogs were banned< truth. We discussed why there are less restrictions on dogs in many Euro countries and what drives the differences. In those threads many people shared their experiences, thoughts and reasoning. If you are interested you can pull the threads up via a search.
> 
> I've had those experiences too. Though as I said I think it's getting better and having a "in training vest" helps too.
> 
> Maybe you didn't participate in those threads but it's not "crazy talk", sorry.


No, I'm not saying you're crazy or Sue is crazy (actually I think you two are people who stand out on online forums as being decidedly NOT crazy), but I think it's utterly insane that it's even a discussion. Let people pet your dog or not, that's up to the owner, but everybody should ask. It's not hard to be polite enough to say, "Is he friendly? Is it okay if I say hi?"

The idea that this courtesy is unnecessary is, frankly, crazy.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh, I know you didn't mean it personally. 

I understand and agree with you, it should be crazy talk! 

Sadly it's not.

That's the problem. If it were I really beleive we would be able to take our dogs to more public places. 






WateryTart said:


> No, I'm not saying you're crazy or Sue is crazy (actually I think you two are people who stand out on online forums as being decidedly NOT crazy), but I think it's utterly insane that it's even a discussion. Let people pet your dog or not, that's up to the owner, but everybody should ask. It's not hard to be polite enough to say, "Is he friendly? Is it okay if I say hi?"
> 
> The idea that this courtesy is unnecessary is, frankly, crazy.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh, I know you didn't mean it personally.
> 
> I understand and agree with you, it should be crazy talk!
> 
> ...


Oh, I see what you're saying.

I maintain it's freaking nuts. But I acknowledge that what people SHOULD do and what they WILL do are very frequently entirely different. Even when that difference means they're freaking nuts.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I've posted this before. I went to a dog park where some "lady" had her two minpins. I had Jasira on a leash going in and asked her if her dogs where friendly. She said," Oh yes. They like big dogs." All the while one of her little monsters was doing growling lunges at Jas who was flinching but not retaliating. I said," I'll leave." She goes," No I'll go but they usually like big dogs." GGGRRRR Like it was Jas' fault that your two little babies were untrained monsters? And who would be blamed if her little darlings did get attacked? It would be the big mean german shepherds fault. I guess i'm a jerk too because I would like to scream at these little dog owners," TRAIN your little monsters! My dog didn't attack so she's trained. Why don't you need to train yours?"


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I feel the same way you do, guess I'm a jerk too lol. A relative that lives next to me has 2 Dachshounds, they are evil incarnate. They aren't nice, sweet, have zero personality and everyone secretly hates them besides the owner. They constantly yap and nip at anything that moves. We have alot of family functions and usually there are tons of family dogs loose with everyone. The two Dachshounds try to bite and nip at all the other dogs, none of the other dogs have any issues at all. I have stopped bringing my 16 year old GSD to family functions because these evil little turds try to bite her face and she just stands there helpless. I REALLY want to punt the little things across the yard but know it's not so much their fault. Everyone always makes excuses for them saying "they are so small they are just intimated by all the bigger dogs." From what I've seen most little dogs behave horribly like this and for that reason I really don't like small dogs.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I had a similar experience with an obnoxious Chihuahua mix belonging to the hosts at a gathering last week where we were encouraged to bring our dogs.Samson was an angel,behaved perfectly and refused to engage with the little beast.I mostly was successful at keeping him blocked but he slipped past and nipped a couple of times.And everyone thought it was funny.Not so funny when Samson has had enough and takes him out,I'm thinking to myself.We got out of there quickly and never again!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I've seen some small dog owners with a sense of humor, though.

My husband was walking our dog and passed two small dogs who both acted (from the other side of the street) like they wanted to kill our dog. The first owner hurried his dog away, but my husband heard the second owner ask his dog, "Did you WANT to be dinner?" My husband was chuckling as he walked our dog, who didn't even react other than a curious glance, off down the street.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When Robyn was about 9 months we went to a bbq. The person holding the bbq had a boxer and a small Maltese(that never shuts up). The little dog kept getting in Robyns face, Robyn looked at her like she was crazy. They ended up putting the small dog away because she wouldn't stop and all the other dogs were doing so well with each other. 

Robyn being super patient...


And Chip you will love this..Robyn with her boxer friend that she loves


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I will admit that I brought up the petting thing because of the other jerk thread that is now gone. We are perceived as being jerks (by some) because we do not allow people to pet our dogs. 

I understand protecting dogs from their possible actions and the fall out of them.

I understand dogs being in training for something specific and needing to ignore their surroundings and focus on their owners. 

I am sure there are some other valid reasons to not allow people to pet your dog. I do not let children pet my dogs that do not ask ME first. I take it as my way of teaching brats manners, and have gotten the nasty looks of more than one set of parents for doing this.

I just think it is a hard pill to swallow when we also tell people that they are too young, too inexperienced, too unsettled, too poor, work too much, travel too much, and so forth, but we, who do own these dogs are going to sneer at you, "Get your own dog!" 

We don't want people with no business getting a dog to run out and get one. But we have to be a little more reasonable about what constitutes being ready to take on dog ownership. And at the same time, when it does count, we shouldn't let just anyone pet our dogs. 

It would be much better if our foul mouthed friend would have said in his shoot from the hip manner, "If they say 'no' maybe their dog will bite your blanking hand off, would that make you happy? 

It is stupid to say, "get your own dog!" It would've been better if people ran with something because of its delivery that actually gave a message that was good.


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## mjackson0902 (Sep 14, 2015)

Ok I will openly admit that with LJ I was a total jerk or may have been perceived as one. I never allow anyone outside the home to pet him or allow any dogs around him. When someone would ask you pet him I would politely say no. If they were persistent and kept questioning and pushing the topic I would be up front and honest, "No, you cannot pet my dog because he is reactive and I do not want a lawsuit in the making." LJ was dog and people reactive to anyone outside our immediate family. SO while I may have been a jerk to some, I was just trying to save them and ER visit and myself a heap of hospital bills and a lawsuit. I didn't want my dog to be classified as a dangerous dog so I just avoided situations I deemed stressful for him.

On the other hand with Bergen, he has nerves of steal and welcomes anyone or any animals except barking yippy dogs. He can ignore without issue until they are directly reactive to him. We are working on that but that is my responsibility to protect him and that I shall. 

I have never liked small dogs (sorry no offense). I think it was due to the fact my mother used to have like five maltese when I was a teenager and she babied them to the point of where they could have free run of the house. I remember on more than one occasion having to sit on the floor of my own house because her dogs didn't want me sitting on the couch.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I too am a jerk. I have a dog reactive 4 yr old girl so I try to avoid off leash areas or places that will cause a problem. But for some reason people feel it is their right to let their dog run free no matter where they are. And it is fine to let their dog come charging at me and my dog. Or even though I am telling you my girl is not friendly to strange dogs, they insist it is ok because their dog is friendly. And for some reason small dogs are excused all kinds of aggressive behavior that would never be tolerated in mine. So jerk that I am, I have a bright yellow vest now that says "In training. Please ignore." Not sure what people think of it but most people seem to keep their distance.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Learn to punt.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> When Robyn was about 9 months we went to a bbq. The person holding the bbq had a boxer and a small Maltese(that never shuts up). The little dog kept getting in Robyns face, Robyn looked at her like she was crazy. They ended up putting the small dog away because she wouldn't stop and all the other dogs were doing so well with each other.
> 
> Robyn being super patient...
> 
> And Chip you will love this..Robyn with her boxer friend that she loves


LOL seen that before and yes!!!

On point and "maybe" someone here that has little dogs friends and to narrow it down further untrained, undisciplined, little dogs because I have seen little dogs which are not like that. 

Why is it that these people with there untrained "curs" seem to think that it is there "God" given right to inflict, there badly behaved, little curs on anyone in there paths?? The guy I skillfully avoided, clearly had no intent to "check" his speed at the bare minimum.

And another odd thing, why is it that people with some of the more formidable dogs are the most "zealous" in protecting them??

At my high point on a walk ... Gunther, AmBand Dawg, Rocky, OS WL GSD and Struddell, White Boxer (the boys took point for her) and myself, pretty much any dog that came at them, let alone myself was going to find themselves, in a very bad situation but "inspite" of that. I felt it was my "job" to keep them out of "harms way."

And yet "little" dog people seems to be the "exact" opposite?? "Tools" with badly behaved dogs, seem to take every opportunity to put their "chew toy, dogs" in harms way??? 

I guess it's more of an "observation" than a question, but ...yeah.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think little dog people ever consider the idea that someone might sue them if their dog attacks them or their dog. 

I think they also believe that everyone loves their dog and think it is cute. 

I think there is a little-dog-owner-syndrome. 

I wonder what they would say about us, what the symptoms of big-dog-owner-syndrome would be as perceived by little dog owners.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't think little dog people ever consider the idea that someone might sue them if their dog attacks them or their dog.
> 
> I think they also believe that everyone loves their dog and think it is cute.
> 
> ...


Maybe that they are elitist snobs who think their "special" dogs should not be touched by ordinary humans.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

May I just say I have an awesome 9-pound min pin girl. She has gone to dog obedience with all big dogs in the class--GSDs, boxers, golden, etc.-- She knows she stays on her rug (cold floor and no undercoat), she does not get in my lap. A German Shepherd barked up close at her in a pet store and she never said a word and never backed away either. She was at my side and held her ground. She is delightful, humorous, and enthusiastic. The dog trainer in our obedience class LOVED her. She was 2 years old in dog obedience. 

Her name is Kamikaze, her brother was Crash--I call her Kami. We are starting nose work in a few weeks and I want to start rally with her. She is lightening fast and keeps moles under control--laid in pristine condition on on patio-but dead.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Moriah said:


> May I just say I have an awesome 9-pound min pin girl. She has gone to dog obedience with all big dogs in the class--GSDs, boxers, golden, etc.-- She knows she stays on her rug (cold floor and no undercoat), she does not get in my lap. A German Shepherd barked up close at her in a pet store and she never said a word and never backed away either. She was at my side and held her ground. /QUOTE]
> 
> Love it! Min Pin's are the only small dog that's really caught my eye. They seem to have more intelligence or control and don't get the napoleon complex that you see so much in smaller breeds. It's almost like they don't see a difference or anything to get so flustered about.
> 
> If someone really has it out for me and I live much longer than my current new pup, I will be getting a Min Pin. They are very cool dogs


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I like some smaller breeds, but they would go to classes just like any of my dogs would. I don't think my nerves could take a barker, so that would have to be controlled. I don't foresee any small breeds in my future because of the coyotes and birds of prey where I live. I was a complete wreck when the last couple were small puppies, I couldnt imagine having to worry about size forever.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Stonevintage--

Yes, min pins are considered the King of Toys. I guess there are some icky ones out there, but she is well bred and loves people and other animals. She is rust and black and has beautiful conformation as she is an ex-show dog. She wasn't getting points in the ring so she was pulled and I acquired her at nine months old. (A dog Kami's breeder bred was at 2015 Westminster)


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

My dog sitter had a wonderful chihuahua - calm, confident, very well behaved. It was great, with both my big dogs. 

My mother-in-law had a fun yorkie. He was excellent with other dogs and children. He could be an evil little dog but he was always well behaved out in public.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Moriah said:


> May I just say I have an awesome 9-pound min pin girl. She has gone to dog obedience with all big dogs in the class--GSDs, boxers, golden, etc.-- She knows she stays on her rug (cold floor and no undercoat), she does not get in my lap. A German Shepherd barked up close at her in a pet store and she never said a word and never backed away either. She was at my side and held her ground. She is delightful, humorous, and enthusiastic. The dog trainer in our obedience class LOVED her. She was 2 years old in dog obedience.
> 
> Her name is Kamikaze, her brother was Crash--I call her Kami. We are starting nose work in a few weeks and I want to start rally with her. She is lightening fast and keeps moles under control--laid in pristine condition on on patio-but dead.


No doubt! And I have met a of lot clients in my line of work and as such I have seen the little dogs of which you speak!

I was "extremely" impressed by many little dogs! And saw a miniature Poodle, who's behavior with company (extremely well mannered) made me feel extremely "embarrassed" by my "Boxer" ... "everybody likes to be walked on and kissed while they are on the sofa??" as far as she was concerned. 

Not some of my better work there.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Moriah said:


> Stonevintage--
> 
> Yes, min pins are considered the King of Toys. I guess there are some icky ones out there, but she is well bred and loves people and other animals. She is rust and black and has beautiful conformation as she is an ex-show dog. She wasn't getting points in the ring so she was pulled and I acquired her at nine months old. (A dog Kami's breeder bred was at 2015 Westminster)


Nice! I didn't know they were considered the King of Toys. I can see why. When my X & I moved here back in the 80's (when dobie's were still very popular) we were walking our dogs (on leash) thru our new neighborhood. 

Big sprawling estate on the waterfront with long immaculately trimmed tall box hedges on both sides of the winding drive to the house..... you get the idea. 

Who comes barreling down the driveway to the property line but two Min Pins. They spread their back legs barked a few times and waited. No gate - they were perimeter trained! My wolf/gsd and strat/gsd loved it! They didn't go any closer but their tails were wagging like crazy as we walked on. Maybe because my husband were laughing so hard and quite happy.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think you were being a jerk sue, just crabby. when walking my dog in the morning, my neighbors 3 year old twins come running down the driveway to say hello to her, they always fall on the gravel driveway, crying they limp up to her and she kisses them, they hug her and all is well. I see joy on their faces, I know my dog is happy, and it makes me feel joy, oh to be a kid again. they have their own dogs, but it doesn't matter, anything with fur would do for the little ones


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Nice! I didn't know they were considered the King of Toys. I can see why. When my X & I moved here back in the 80's (when dobie's were still very popular) we were walking our dogs (on leash) thru our new neighborhood.
> 
> Big sprawling estate on the waterfront with long immaculately trimmed tall box hedges on both sides of the winding drive to the house..... you get the idea.
> 
> Who comes barreling down the driveway to the property line but two Min Pins. They spread their back legs barked a few times and waited. No gate - they were perimeter trained! My wolf/gsd and strat/gsd loved it! They didn't go any closer but their tails were wagging like crazy as we walked on. Maybe because my husband were laughing so hard and quite happy.


HeeHee--love the estate dogs  

Kami's short tail is always moving in one of three speeds: fast or faster or fastest--many times accompanied by a play bow. Incredibly cheerful dog. She's not a barker. If she barks, I pay attention. Oh, and there is the min pin smile . . .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like that. Kids with dogs of their own, running out to meet the neighbor's dogs. 

Some people just are born that way, I guess.


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

selzer said:


> I wonder what they would say about us, what the symptoms of big-dog-owner-syndrome would be as perceived by little dog owners.


I'll tell you what I would say. (Background info: I have always preferred big dogs. I never imagined myself with a little dog, until I bonded with one. She is my heart dog.) I get annoyed by the amount of hate for little dogs on this forum. Some people don't train their little dogs, some don't train their large dogs. Of mine, my little dog is easily the best behaved and trained of all of them, and of most of the dogs I have ever met. If I had half of the problems with her (or any of my other dogs) that people (including those on this forum) have, I wouldn't have any more dogs. Also, she is easily the quietest (always has been), and all of my dogs are quiet because I HATE barking in the house.

On the other hand, I have started to understand why so many small dogs are nasty to other dogs. I cannot tell you how many owners of large dogs allow their untrained monsters to MAUL my dog because they are "just playing" (part of that lack of training I was talking about). Your 100 pound dog's "play" can KILL or SERIOUSLY INJURE my 13 pound dog. How many times do you think your 100 pound dog could be mauled by a horse before it would start to get aggressive to protect itself? The ratio between sizes is about the same.

As far as not allowing people to pet your dogs, I do not understand why anyone would have a problem with that. Not all dogs like strangers, not just German Shepherds (and not all of them will actually bite, some are just stressed). Sometimes people are in a hurry. Some people are shy and don't do well with strangers themselves. Some dogs are in training but are not identified as such. I did not bring home my dogs for your (general "you") amusement (if that was your primary reason for getting a dog, you probably shouldn't have). I almost always let people pet my friendly dogs, but that does not mean that I cannot imagine plenty of situations in which a person would be perfectly justified in restricting it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Majolica said:


> I'll tell you what I would say. (Background info: I have always preferred big dogs. I never imagined myself with a little dog, until I bonded with one. She is my heart dog.) I get annoyed by the amount of hate for little dogs on this forum. Some people don't train their little dogs, some don't train their large dogs. Of mine, my little dog is easily the best behaved and trained of all of them, and of most of the dogs I have ever met. If I had half of the problems with her (or any of my other dogs) that people (including those on this forum) have, I wouldn't have any more dogs. Also, she is easily the quietest (always has been), and all of my dogs are quiet because I HATE barking in the house.
> 
> On the other hand, I have started to understand why so many small dogs are nasty to other dogs. I cannot tell you how many owners of large dogs allow their untrained monsters to MAUL my dog because they are "just playing" (part of that lack of training I was talking about). Your 100 pound dog's "play" can KILL or SERIOUSLY INJURE my 13 pound dog. How many times do you think your 100 pound dog could be mauled by a horse before it would start to get aggressive to protect itself? The ratio between sizes is about the same.
> 
> As far as not allowing people to pet your dogs, I do not understand why anyone would have a problem with that. Not all dogs like strangers, not just German Shepherds (and not all of them will actually bite, some are just stressed). Sometimes people are in a hurry. Some people are shy and don't do well with strangers themselves. Some dogs are in training but are not identified as such. I did not bring home my dogs for your (general "you") amusement (if that was your primary reason for getting a dog, you probably shouldn't have). I almost always let people pet my friendly dogs, but that does not mean that I cannot imagine plenty of situations in which a person would be perfectly justified in restricting it.


I think a lot of people are disappointed at their GSD's bad behavior toward a little yappy dog but rather than do something about their dog, it is easier to point the finger at the next guy's dog, even if it weighs a mere few pounds. A stable dog should not view a small dog as a threat.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Why do some people have the compulsion that requires their dogs to mix with strange dogs they do not know and proper introductions cannot be made in a relaxed environment? If they are to associate with each other over time, I can see making the effort but it's simply not required or a natural part of their behavior - large or small dogs to kumbaya with every dog they meet....

This IMO is another example of trying to force a dog to do something that is against their nature. Everyone wants dogs that all get along with every other dog..... right? Should be able to do that with cats too right? Oh, now the nature of the animal is considered......


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs really do not judge other dogs by size. It is a HUMAN thing to consider a large dog a bully when it retaliates against a small dog that aggresses toward it. Somehow a dog should consider small dogs to be puppies or at a disadvantage. That isn't a canine instinct. A dog is a dog. If a small dog is strutting along, tail up like it owns the place, and a large dog feels that it is infringing on its territory, the large dog may want to do something. It has to do with the animals internal level of dominance.

Majolica, if your dog was mauled by a large dog, than I am sorry. That should never happen. The large dog's owner should be ashamed, and should have had to pay for damages. 

If your dog was mauled more than once by large dogs, then you, my friend, are a huge part of the problem. One time, we may misjudge and get our dogs injured by our lack our vigilance, but then we have to get smarter. We have to figure out how to protect our dogs. Else we do not deserve to own dogs. Just because small dogs are unlikely to do serious damage to humans or dogs, they should not be allowed to zip around at the end of a flexi-lead rushing up to dogs and people. Having the dog under control does not mean that you have the end of the lead. It means the dog is at your side and does not have free access to other dogs or people, unless both parties are ok with that.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Majolica said:


> I'll tell you what I would say. (Background info: I have always preferred big dogs. I never imagined myself with a little dog, until I bonded with one. She is my heart dog.) I get annoyed by the amount of hate for little dogs on this forum. Some people don't train their little dogs, some don't train their large dogs. Of mine, my little dog is easily the best behaved and trained of all of them, and of most of the dogs I have ever met. If I had half of the problems with her (or any of my other dogs) that people (including those on this forum) have, I wouldn't have any more dogs. Also, she is easily the quietest (always has been), and all of my dogs are quiet because I HATE barking in the house.
> 
> On the other hand, I have started to understand why so many small dogs are nasty to other dogs. I cannot tell you how many owners of large dogs allow their untrained monsters to MAUL my dog because they are "just playing" (part of that lack of training I was talking about). Your 100 pound dog's "play" can KILL or SERIOUSLY INJURE my 13 pound dog. How many times do you think your 100 pound dog could be mauled by a horse before it would start to get aggressive to protect itself? The ratio between sizes is about the same.
> 
> As far as not allowing people to pet your dogs, I do not understand why anyone would have a problem with that. Not all dogs like strangers, not just German Shepherds (and not all of them will actually bite, some are just stressed). Sometimes people are in a hurry. Some people are shy and don't do well with strangers themselves. Some dogs are in training but are not identified as such. I did not bring home my dogs for your (general "you") amusement (if that was your primary reason for getting a dog, you probably shouldn't have). I almost always let people pet my friendly dogs, but that does not mean that I cannot imagine plenty of situations in which a person would be perfectly justified in restricting it.


I guess I'm not understanding why as an owner of a 13 pound dog you would even allow a strange large dog to play with yours?


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## Sheera67 (Mar 29, 2015)

faith5 said:


> Yeah, humans are jerks. All of us, really, at one time or another. I'm ashamed of how often I'm a jerk in my heart. And utterly humiliated at how often it actually gets expressed.
> 
> It's interesting, actually. What your first story seems to boil down to is this: You worked hard over a long time to have a well-behaved dog that you could take into public, but you felt people didn't appreciate you for that. Another person brought some annoying, poorly-behaved dogs into public, and the public didn't seem to mind. Also, they were ugly dogs and yours was pretty. You did things right; she did things wrong. But she didn't have to pay for it, and you didn't get any admiration.
> 
> ...


Leaving out the religious comparison.........

I like this post


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sheera67 said:


> Leaving out the religious comparison.........
> 
> I like this post


Yea, it hit me too. A perspective from someone not in the storm but looking down upon it....


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I guess I'm not understanding why as an owner of a 13 pound dog you would even allow a strange large dog to play with yours?





selzer said:


> Dogs really do not judge other dogs by size. It is a HUMAN thing to consider a large dog a bully when it retaliates against a small dog that aggresses toward it. Somehow a dog should consider small dogs to be puppies or at a disadvantage. That isn't a canine instinct. A dog is a dog. If a small dog is strutting along, tail up like it owns the place, and a large dog feels that it is infringing on its territory, the large dog may want to do something. It has to do with the animals internal level of dominance.
> 
> Majolica, if your dog was mauled by a large dog, than I am sorry. That should never happen. The large dog's owner should be ashamed, and should have had to pay for damages.
> 
> If your dog was mauled more than once by large dogs, then you, my friend, are a huge part of the problem. One time, we may misjudge and get our dogs injured by our lack our vigilance, but then we have to get smarter. We have to figure out how to protect our dogs. Else we do not deserve to own dogs. Just because small dogs are unlikely to do serious damage to humans or dogs, they should not be allowed to zip around at the end of a flexi-lead rushing up to dogs and people. Having the dog under control does not mean that you have the end of the lead. It means the dog is at your side and does not have free access to other dogs or people, unless both parties are ok with that.





Stonevintage said:


> Why do some people have the compulsion that requires their dogs to mix with strange dogs they do not know and proper introductions cannot be made in a relaxed environment? If they are to associate with each other over time, I can see making the effort but it's simply not required or a natural part of their behavior - large or small dogs to kumbaya with every dog they meet....
> 
> This IMO is another example of trying to force a dog to do something that is against their nature. Everyone wants dogs that all get along with every other dog..... right? Should be able to do that with cats too right? Oh, now the nature of the animal is considered......


First, I would like to clarify how I am using the word maul in this case. I am using it to describe the stereotypical lab or golden retriever exuberant play. For example, many golden retrievers seem to run up and immediately pounce on a dog's back before even politely introducing themselves (which is one of the things that could kill my dog).

I DO NOT ALLOW STRANGE DOGS TO PLAY WITH ANY OF MY DOGS. Stop reading something I didn't write into my post. I do not take my dogs to dog parks, I do not expect my dogs to play with others. I would be perfectly happy if my dogs never played with dogs outside of their family. That does not stop dogs (belonging to certain family members, and in one instance a coworker) from trying to play with my dogs when they are in the area. I cannot always hold her, even when I try to. This has been a constant battle in my recent class as well. "Oh, if they sniff each other my dog won't be so excited any more!" "They don't need to sniff each other, and your dog needs to be under better control." I am referring to behavior that happens instantly, before I even have time to pick up my dog, especially in circumstances with family and at work. But, on this forum, picking up the small dog is also villainized!

Finally, my dog is NOT behaving aggressively toward large dogs. Ever. She will even tolerate them sniffing her and acting like fools, even though I try to protect her from that as well. All I said in my post is that I kind of understand why SOME small dogs behave aggressively.

The problem is, where there is some leeway in protecting a big dog, there is NONE when protecting a small dog. And, as much as I try, I can't prevent every single instance that could go badly. I can't carry my dog everywhere. She is not a pocket dog (13 pounds gets heavy after a while). She was born walking at heel position. I don't think I have ever had her on a flexi in her entire life. Sometimes I have other things in my arms. Sometimes I have to let her go potty. Sometimes, in order to train her, she has to be on the floor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Majolica said:


> First, I would like to clarify how I am using the word maul in this case. I am using it to describe the stereotypical lab or golden retriever exuberant play. For example, many golden retrievers seem to run up and immediately pounce on a dog's back before even politely introducing themselves (which is one of the things that could kill my dog).
> 
> I DO NOT ALLOW STRANGE DOGS TO PLAY WITH ANY OF MY DOGS. Stop reading something I didn't write into my post. I do not take my dogs to dog parks, I do not expect my dogs to play with others. I would be perfectly happy if my dogs never played with dogs outside of their family. That does not stop dogs (belonging to certain family members, and in one instance a coworker) from trying to play with my dogs when they are in the area. I cannot always hold her, even when I try to. This has been a constant battle in my recent class as well. "Oh, if they sniff each other my dog won't be so excited any more!" "They don't need to sniff each other, and your dog needs to be under better control." I am referring to behavior that happens instantly, before I even have time to pick up my dog, especially in circumstances with family and at work. But, on this forum, picking up the small dog is also villainized!
> 
> ...


If protecting a dog means picking them up, you would have trouble protecting my 68 pound bitches and 79 pound dogs for sure. LOL! 

Yes, picking them up can actually create issues. But let's not go there. You protect your dog by making sure the lead your dog is on, is no where long enough to get to the other dog. Not letting dogs sniff butts, unless you feel confident of the other owners capabilities is another. 

Ah well, it is too late to go into this properly.

From your original post, it sounded like your dog had been mauled (usually a term used when a pit bull seriously attacks a dog or a person and the result is stitches, plastic surgery, death) several times.

Protecting your dog for us big dog owners, means both physically protecting our dog from dogs of all sizes so that there is not a fight and injuries; and protecting our dogs from the damage they might do to another dog or person so that AC does not come down on us, take our dog, and determine that they are dangerous and needs to be euthanized.

Protecting our dogs means stepping in front of them, moving between our dog and the aggressor. Moving away from possible situations before they become an issue. Telling someone to leash their dog. Yelling at a loose aggressive dog, or using a stick, or an air horn, or some type of spray to keep a stray dog far enough away while we get our dog out of the situation. 

Ah well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sheera67 said:


> Leaving out the religious comparison.........
> 
> I like this post


Does the religious comparison offend you? Because that was one of the better parts of the post in my opinion. The Biblical story was pertinent and hit home for me. 

There is no reason why we should not allude to something that is well known just because it was in the Bible, is there?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We had a family outing at the pet store today. The employee at pet store had a german shepherd so he got some attention she showed me a picture oh her dog and their was another women who came up to us to say hi. i saw one person with their kid theatrically move to another aisle. It does not happen often and Good stay away. One guy was excited to see max like it was his best friend and max acted as though he was. The majority of times its hard not to run into someone who has not had a german shepherd and wants to come and swap notes. Some admire from afar. Some people did some stupid things with our chihuahua and our German shepherd then i start to believe i should let no one pet our dogs, our dogs who have been polite but it is a reminder you must know your dogs. It depends on the crowd. Most of the time our german shepherd gets alot more attention then our chihuahua. Although today i think for the first time our chihuahua got most of the attention. In the summer we were at the outlets and get to bring our little chihuahua in the stores all the little girls go gaga over him and he melts at the attention. One girl just scooped him up within 1 second without permission yikes i had to pry him from her arms she did not want to let him go. My daughter was walking our chihuahua on the sidewalk and we passed a mom and her young daughter on a bench topper our chihuahua started to walk over to say hi and the mom grabbed her daughter and pulled her real close as if she was about to be mauled. Poor little toppers heart sank but we just moved on. All kinds out there.


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

selzer said:


> If protecting a dog means picking them up, you would have trouble protecting my 68 pound bitches and 79 pound dogs for sure. LOL!
> 
> Yes, picking them up can actually create issues. But let's not go there. You protect your dog by making sure the lead your dog is on, is no where long enough to get to the other dog. Not letting dogs sniff butts, unless you feel confident of the other owners capabilities is another.
> 
> ...


This is the way I was using it:

Maul

verb (used with object)
3.
to handle or use roughly


No where did I reference pit bulls. I'm not sure how else I can explain this. There is no aggression at any point. That doesn't change the fact that my dog can be injured, on leash or not, no matter the length of the leash, particularly if I am indoors, in a known area, and another dog is loose. (Try convincing everyone at a vet clinic or in their own homes to leash their dogs that they feel are just being friendly, and to their credit they ARE.) I attempt to block it in some way, but it simply is not always possible (why that is SO unbelievable is beyond me). For a big dog it isn't that big of a deal once in a great while, it might be mildly aggravating. There is also a much larger target to block (which is easier if they are trying to move), and it is easier to get to quickly, even if I am carrying things because they are closer. For a small dog it can lead to an injury or worse, the very first time. Perhaps I'm not explaining this well, but I am truly at a loss as to how to explain it any differently. To be fair, I'm not sure it is something I would have ever considered before I had a small dog. Also, I never said these were strays or that I was letting my dog sniff other dogs butts. Where did you get that?. 

To be clear, I have NEVER had an aggressive incident with any of my dogs because I AM very vigilant about protecting them from both themselves and other dogs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Majolica said:


> I DO NOT ALLOW STRANGE DOGS TO PLAY WITH ANY OF MY DOGS. Stop reading something I didn't write into my post. I do not take my dogs to dog parks, I do not expect my dogs to play with others. I would be perfectly happy if my dogs never played with dogs outside of their family. That does not stop dogs (belonging to certain family members, and in one instance a coworker) from trying to play with my dogs when they are in the area. I cannot always hold her, even when I try to. This has been a constant battle in my recent class as well. "Oh, if they sniff each other my dog won't be so excited any more!" "They don't need to sniff each other, and your dog needs to be under better control." I am referring to behavior that happens instantly, before I even have time to pick up my dog, especially in circumstances with family and at work. But, on this forum, picking up the small dog is also villainized!


I didn't read anything into your post. Simply because I've never read your post. If you have a problem with family members... I can only suggest this; as you seem to have no problem speaking freely online, simply do so with your family and TELL THEM TO LEAVE YOUR DOG THE HECK ALONE WITH THEIR DOGS!!!. Why is that so difficult?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Majolica said:


> I'll tell you what I would say. (Background info: I have always preferred big dogs. I never imagined myself with a little dog, until I bonded with one. She is my heart dog.) I get annoyed by the amount of hate for little dogs on this forum. Some people don't train their little dogs, some don't train their large dogs. Of mine, my little dog is easily the best behaved and trained of all of them, and of most of the dogs I have ever met. If I had half of the problems with her (or any of my other dogs) that people (including those on this forum) have, I wouldn't have any more dogs. Also, she is easily the quietest (always has been), and all of my dogs are quiet because I HATE barking in the house.
> 
> On the other hand, I have started to understand why so many small dogs are nasty to other dogs. I cannot tell you how many owners of large dogs allow their untrained monsters to MAUL my dog because they are "just playing" (part of that lack of training I was talking about). Your 100 pound dog's "play" can KILL or SERIOUSLY INJURE my 13 pound dog. How many times do you think your 100 pound dog could be mauled by a horse before it would start to get aggressive to protect itself? The ratio between sizes is about the same.


I realize #notallsmalldogs.

But we have encountered plenty who are obviously untrained and reactive and who, without provocation, act like they'd like to kill my dog. It's even more fun when the owner has decided that because they're small, a flexi or no leash at all is just fine. I keep my dog away from those dogs, because I view them as a big fat risk. A 10 lb dog might start something, but who gets the blame when the 75 lb dog finishes it, or if physics takes over and the 10 lb dog gets hurt? That's right, the 75 lb dog (and owner). And with that comes restrictions and labels and it's a step toward bad consequences for the dog. For my dog's own safety, I have to think of small dogs as a danger. Even though my dog is not aggressive or dog-reactive in the slightest.

(On the other hand, in a dog park, while I keep an eye on my dog and she has a reliable "leave it," I have to figure a small dog owner understands they are assuming some risk in that environment.)


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

My boy and I are still working through his over-excitement, and I take it a my responsibility not to subject this bad behaviour onto other people and their dogs in places like vets and pet supply stores. He has to wait in the car until we are ready to go in, and even then, not if he's acting up. When Tchai is the well mannered boy I strive for each day, I would hate for an over excited dog to invade our space and upset the months and years of training we've invested in each other by causing distress to my dog. 

Also, no play time with strange dogs, and with small dogs, we are even more careful. Having said that, one of Tchai's best play mates is a tiny, white fluffy thing called Bertie


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I didn't read anything into your post. Simply because I've never read your post. If you have a problem with family members... I can only suggest this; as you seem to have no problem speaking freely online, simply do so with your family and TELL THEM TO LEAVE YOUR DOG THE HECK ALONE WITH THEIR DOGS!!!. Why is that so difficult?


I apologize if you were not referring to my post. I assumed that you were because it was a similar post to the others that immediately followed mine. But you know what they say about assuming.  As far as telling them, I have tried (gently), although, to be more specific, it is my husbands family and those dogs are their kids since their kids all grew up and moved out. Not as simple. 



WateryTart said:


> I realize #notallsmalldogs.
> 
> But we have encountered plenty who are obviously untrained and reactive and who, without provocation, act like they'd like to kill my dog. It's even more fun when the owner has decided that because they're small, a flexi or no leash at all is just fine. I keep my dog away from those dogs, because I view them as a big fat risk. A 10 lb dog might start something, but who gets the blame when the 75 lb dog finishes it, or if physics takes over and the 10 lb dog gets hurt? That's right, the 75 lb dog (and owner). And with that comes restrictions and labels and it's a step toward bad consequences for the dog. For my dog's own safety, I have to think of small dogs as a danger. Even though my dog is not aggressive or dog-reactive in the slightest.
> 
> (On the other hand, in a dog park, while I keep an eye on my dog and she has a reliable "leave it," I have to figure a small dog owner understands they are assuming some risk in that environment.)


And I agree wholeheartedly that small dogs shouldn't be little pains. My point is only that there are TONS of large dog owners that let their dogs do the EXACT same things. I can not tell you how many farm dogs come into the clinic with no leash and are allowed to wander around for 20 minutes, while the owner isn't even paying attention to where they are. Aggressive dogs that should have never LEFT the farm to begin with, but now we have to find a way to board the thing. Just look at all of the posts on this very forum about leash reactive dogs that have been allowed to behave that way for months or years in all kinds of environments. And sometimes, the behavior of the small dogs is likely BECAUSE of the behavior of larger dogs in their past. Basically, everyone should train and control their dogs and there would be no issues.  And yeah, I am not a fan of dog parks at all, for any size dog, but especially not for a dog that can be killed by one semi annoyed bite.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OMG has everybody lost it as of late?? I'm sorry I brought the "small dogs up!" I did specifically stated* "not all"* and complimented the owners I knew that had "small dogs!"

Ugh ... maybe my question was "poorly" phrased?? I just "assumed" that some of us knew owners with "dogs" that were poorly trained. And was wondering if they knew why "some" of those owners went out of there way to put there dogs in harms way??

Day 3 of the New Year and people seem to be losing it here already, gonna be a long year, here at this rate ...just saying.

Sorry Selzer I did not mean for "this" to happen to your thread.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Out on the street, My moto is "Live and let Live"

I accept all the people and dogs i meet are the way they are. 

People should realize they can only train them selves and there own dogs.

It's always good to look at the bigger picture and be happy you have abilities you have.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Majolica said:


> And I agree wholeheartedly that small dogs shouldn't be little pains. My point is only that there are TONS of large dog owners that let their dogs do the EXACT same things. I can not tell you how many farm dogs come into the clinic with no leash and are allowed to wander around for 20 minutes, while the owner isn't even paying attention to where they are. Aggressive dogs that should have never LEFT the farm to begin with, but now we have to find a way to board the thing. Just look at all of the posts on this very forum about leash reactive dogs that have been allowed to behave that way for months or years in all kinds of environments. And sometimes, the behavior of the small dogs is likely BECAUSE of the behavior of larger dogs in their past. Basically, everyone should train and control their dogs and there would be no issues.  And yeah, I am not a fan of dog parks at all, for any size dog, but especially not for a dog that can be killed by one semi annoyed bite.


It's interesting, the different experiences we've had. In my experience, the problem is far and away the little dogs. The owners at the dog park tend to be cool (plus seriously, what are they going to say if they were the ones who chose not to use the area set aside for small dogs), but out in the community, I see a lot of well controlled, well behaved big dogs and a lot of hellion little dogs. Like ALL of the little ones who act like they want to kill mine or the one on the flexi who the owner said was "so friendly, don't worry!" but who immediately ran up to my husband, jumped up, and bit him, or the one off leash in a public park who ran up to my dog and started trying to throw its weight around...yeah.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I say something if someone else's dog is out of control and in my dogs face, after I make sure mine is in control. Why should anyone in a public place let their dog bark at mine? Why aren't little dogs well trained? I would have no trouble telling someone with a loud terrier that their breed was bred to kill rodents and vermin, while mine was bred for herding or protection. Don't they know that? 

Some guy stopped right in front of us when I was trying to get my older dog back home after a walk. He had a few dogs with him but one lab was acting up. Every time the dog lunged and growled, the man said, no, but without correction or training. Worse, the dog was staring mine down. I finally said, you are blocking my path and I have no other way to get home, would you please move your dog! His reply was that he is training his dog and I need to let him finish. Doing what? I couldn't see he was doing anything at all except holding a dog on a tight lead while we approached. I finally managed to walk far enough around him so I could get by and get on with my day. I so wanted to give him a quick lesson on how allowing forced eye contact when his dog was already in a hyper vigilant state was only increasing his aggression but I decided to skip it. The saddest part is that this moron is a professional dog walker and probably sells himself as a trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> His reply was that he is training his dog and I need to let him finish.


LOL Why do people feel all others are supposed to cater to them? Pretty audacious.

First, if I were training my dog and using yours as an opportunity, I would say something to you as in "do you mind blah blah blah..." not demand you let me finish. 

Second, I am not required to let other people pet my dog. I didn't let other people pet my children so they could decide if they wanted a child. I am not obligated to let strangers put their hands on my dogs. I have had more adults do incredibly stupid things that should have gotten them bit. Thankfully, my dogs are incredibly stable with people. A child? Absolutely. They can pet my dogs anytime. An adult? No. I pay for them, vet them, feed them, train them. MINE. Go find a club, volunteer at a shelter/rescue, etc if you want to learn about dogs.

Little dogs? I have had far more little dogs charge my big dogs than big dogs charging. My dogs have a strong "leave it" command. I'm not nice about it anymore with the owners. Get your dog right now. NOW!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Maybe that they are elitist snobs who think their "special" dogs should not be touched by ordinary humans.


 Ohhh, I see a T-shirt graphic in the making!

Elitist GSD snob
[pic]
Don't touch my dog!

I am cautious with some people. Kids I avoid, although I couldn't get past a herd of them one day at a corner with crossing guard. An adult too with an infant in stroller. I short leashed him, but without pressure, He turned to the baby and sniffed and gave a tiny kiss on the chin. The lady gushed about what a sweatheart he was! Then the herd began to move to cross again and G beaked off, spooked them a bit. We moved on as I hear her say, Oh you're a talker.


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## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

I wonder how much of the small dog issues are cultural. For instance, here on the West of Coast of the USA, I dislike small dogs, because more often then not, those have been the ones to cause problems with my dogs. This is the main opinon of small dogs in my area. Vega now only reacts to small dogs, as they have been the main types of dogs who get her face/bark/try to bite, over big dogs. While I sometimes see a small dog walking well on leash, other manners are not there. I live in a very very dog friendly city, and many small dog owners seem to think that means everything is a free pass for their dog to do anything it wants. 

For instance, I was out working on socializing Rango. I very carefully picked a time when no one would be in the coffeeshop I was headed too, to make sure it wouldn't be overwhelming for Rango, or have a dog inside that he would try to attack. Long story short, I'm inside the shop, Rango is doing great, when a lady walks in with her mini fluff ball. Rango starts to lose his marbles, I calmly ask they lady to move to the side so I can take Rango out safely, to which she replies, "oh, my dog is fine!" I respond with "my dog is not friendly and will eat your dog, please move out of the doorway!" I pick up rango, to control him, and frog march out the door. The barista brings me my latte, and thanks me for be the responsible dog owner. Apparently, they have lots of problems with small dogs, but the big dogs who come in are great. Obv. this lady thought her dog could do anything, while I had to scramble to keep her dog and mine safe, because I knew the danger Rango would pose to her and her fluff ball. (rango is now fixed and starting privite training soon, thank goodness!) 

There are two side to a coin however, some small dogs are trained fabulously, some aren't. Same with big dogs. I think with what the OP said, is that many of us GSD owners do tons and tons and tons of research, training, care etc because we know and understand what a dog, esp. a GSD needs to be happy and healthy, while so many other dog owners just pick the dog that they think is cutest. To them, we seem elitist and rude, to us, they seem irresponsible and uninvolved. How we, as a community, perceived is a two way street as this point, from how we treat others and for how they treat us.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> LOL Why do people feel all others are supposed to cater to them? Pretty audacious.
> 
> First, if I were training my dog and using yours as an opportunity, I would say something to you as in "do you mind blah blah blah..." not demand you let me finish.


He was no trainer. At that time I had an aggressive rescue dog. I almost asked him for his address so I could bring over my other dog to snarl at him as training practice but decided anyone that dense wouldn't get my point.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL No, they won't get the point. You just get away from them quickly.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> He was no trainer. At that time I had an aggressive rescue dog. I almost asked him for his address so I could bring over my other dog to snarl at him as training practice but decided anyone that dense wouldn't get my point.


:rofl:


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Majolica said:


> And I agree wholeheartedly that small dogs shouldn't be little pains.


 Something that impressed me - a LOT - was going to a teacup agility meet. I admit, I'd become pretty biased. I've been bit several times at work, and the offending dog has never been over 30lbs. Our neighbor's yorkie used to terrorize my GSD - ran into _our_ yard unattended, bit her nose, bit my hand, drew blood, rinse & repeat, until she moved.

I volunteered to help with some grounds keeping at one of the dog clubs I train at, and there was a teacup agility event underway (random coincidence). I watched a few of the dogs run, and I was pretty darn impressed! Instead of being carried around in a purse with a glittery diamond spangle collar, these were little tiny obedient athletes, and some were every bit as excited and driven as the "regular" dogs I was used to watching. It helped change my opinion, and acknowledge that there can be good dogs in a variety of sizes.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I had a situation once that was kind of comical now, but not so much at the time. I was walking Newlie and since he can, at times, be reactive, I try to keep a lookout for other dogs when I take him for walks. One day, I saw a man walking a medium size dog up ahead and so, I crossed the street with Newlie. After a couple of minutes, I noticed the guy crossing the street with his dog as well, so now we are on the same side again. I slowed down and then he slowed down, I sped up and he sped up, I crossed the street again, he crossed again. Finally, I was tired of playing this game, so I made a wide circle around him as we were on out final lap home. As we made the turn, the dog started barking at Newlie. The first time, Newlie ignored it. The second time, Newlie hesitated but kept walking. The third time, Newlie decided he was ready to rumble. I jerked a knot in his butt and said "get up here" and we went on home. The guy never corrected his dog and I just wonder how many lives he thought his dog had.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Those are two different things though. Those who ask to touch/pet and those who don't. 

Those who ask, as long as I say 'no' nicely it's on them if they want to have a kiniption fit. It's my dog. 

The 'get your own dog' is directed at the people who don't ask or approach dogs and try to lure them or intentionally distract them.

The problem is you're conflating two different aspects.

I submit to you, people who reach out and touch, lure, whistle to and other wise intentionally try to distract, grab and interact with dogs *without *asking are the biggest jerks. 

Further, I've been around serious sport OB dogs like Aussies and their handlers were just as particular as GSD handlers.

I think people who are seriously into training their dogs, especially for sport, are going to be more particular then people who don't train.

So it's not just GSD owners.



selzer said:


> Ok, I will admit that I brought up the petting thing because of the other jerk thread that is now gone. We are perceived as being jerks (by some) because we do not allow people to pet our dogs.
> 
> I understand protecting dogs from their possible actions and the fall out of them.
> 
> ...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm not sure that this thread indicates "why" but it does seem to illustrate that, yes, we are jerks... Something of a component of all dog owners perhaps?


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## Vega-gurl (Sep 1, 2014)

newlie said:


> I had a situation once that was kind of comical now, but not so much at the time. I was walking Newlie and since he can, at times, be reactive, I try to keep a lookout for other dogs when I take him for walks. One day, I saw a man walking a medium size dog up ahead and so, I crossed the street with Newlie. After a couple of minutes, I noticed the guy crossing the street with his dog as well, so now we are on the same side again. I slowed down and then he slowed down, I sped up and he sped up, I crossed the street again, he crossed again. Finally, I was tired of playing this game, so I made a wide circle around him as we were on out final lap home. As we made the turn, the dog started barking at Newlie. The first time, Newlie ignored it. The second time, Newlie hesitated but kept walking. The third time, Newlie decided he was ready to rumble. I jerked a knot in his butt and said "get up here" and we went on home. The guy never corrected his dog and I just wonder how many lives he thought his dog had.


I never understood why people do this. What/ why do people follow other dog walkers around, esp when its obvious the other walker is trying to avoid meeting another dog? What do they hope to accomplish?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW the "get your own dog" guy is in NYC area I believe. His personal training dog, that he has in the video is a lab, not a GSD.  So more people around and probably runs into the problem more often. Therefore he's going to be more forceful.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A component of all humans, not all dog owners.

At Lowes the other night I was not a jerk. Had several friendly and positive convos with my dog right beside me.

Some days though, I might not be feeling well, or snap when I don't really mean to or wouldn't on another day.

To err is human, to forgive canine. 




middleofnowhere said:


> I'm not sure that this thread indicates "why" but it does seem to illustrate that, yes, we are jerks... Something of a component of all dog owners perhaps?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Vega-gurl said:


> I never understood why people do this. What/ why do people follow other dog walkers around, esp when its obvious the other walker is trying to avoid meeting another dog? What do they hope to accomplish?


I know, I don't get it, either. I felt like I was in some kind of Candid Camera skit, I was trying so hard to keep my distance, and no matter what I tried, there he was again!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think that if my kids especially if they were alot younger asked to pet a dog and that person said no in a respectful way as i was respectful to ask, as mom i would be relieved. Not crazy hAving my kids pets dogs i dont really know even though we are animal people little ones can be unpredictable. If the owners were nasty i would chock it up with the owners were stressed big dogs big responsibility even little dogs big responsibility. and move on and be more relieved to get away. Not that this really ever happened but if it did. My dog is dog reactive. He was very well behaved you would not know he was dog reactive but some guy starting quickly approaching with two german shepherds walking on a leash way ahead of him towards us. This only a handful of times i may hAve appeared bitter rude but thwarted him off rather quickly was necessary and yes i was afraid the outcome would not be very good. I was stressed at the moment and didnt care if i was pleasant or not.-maybe afterwards i felt bad but all was good that is what mattered. I think most people (not all)can read body language pretty well and it is pretty easy to keep people away without saying much when wanted. 
The amount of times we have been out in general i have to say so far the majority of my experiences with other people and their dogs have been good ones. We have been to public parks and beaches with many dogs around on leashes without incidence-knock on wood. Although there were two times small dogs did charge at us unleashed And i could careless how i came off i to busy trying to keep their dog from being eaten. I never liked little dogs i thought they were all nippy and nasty until our chihuahua came around topper proved that thought wronguppy:


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jenny720 said:


> I think that if my kids especially if they were alot younger asked to pet a dog and that person said no in a respectful way as i was respectful to ask, as mom i would be relieved. Not crazy hAving my kids pets dogs i dont really know even though we are animal people little ones can be unpredictable.


Most of the kids I've run into have been really nice about asking first - better than adults, in fact - and I try to remember to thank them for asking, whether I said yes or no. That kind of politeness should be reinforced!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Newlie, that kind of situation scares me and I would say something. There is an older man with a mid sized fluffy dog who walks his dog all the time, so chances are if I am near home, I will run into him. I'm not sure the breed, it looks like a small husky. The owner always stops and lets the dog bark at mine from across the street or down the block. One day I walked over when I was alone and told him he has no idea what trouble he is causing those of us with rescues who are trying to teach our dogs to be polite on leash. He said, your dogs are bigger than mine. I answered, your dog is louder than mine and your dog is the one most likely to get hurt if you allow this to escalate, and guess what, if we called the cops, you would be the one at fault, because your dog is the aggressor. He looked at me like I was out of my mind and I left. I finally taught both my dogs that I would cross the street to stay away from that dog but they had to do their parts and not bark. And they didn't! He still has the dog and it still barks at bigger dogs. Of course, it's my fault for owning bigger dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> BTW the "get your own dog" guy is in NYC area I believe. His personal training dog, that he has in the video is a lab, not a GSD.  So more people around and probably runs into the problem more often. Therefore he's going to be more forceful.


Peter Caine but of course I know him. 


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGBhmRCsK-hdGyKUP-K02zw


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You know him personally? 

Yeah I thought he was a retriever - gun dog guy! 

So does that mean lab owners are jerks too?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Majolica said:


> This is the way I was using it:
> 
> Maul
> 
> ...


 
Ok, 

Two things, why in the world do you take your dogs to the homes of family and friends if they have a large dog that might injure your dog by just being friendly. Leave your dog home. Simple. Tell your family that they are welcome in your home, but not to bring the dog if it is coming to your house. Have a family meeting -- Hey, I got a little dog, and I really don't feel comfortable letting him run with the big guys, because he is small and can be hurt really easily, so I am not going to bring my guy over, and I don't want any one to bring their dogs over my house either. 

Secondly, It is on whoever is running the vet clinic to top crap like that from happening. I have been in countless clinics over the years and the rules have always been that dogs must be on leash or in a carrier. If someone comes with a loose dog, the vet tech would need to go up to the person with one of those loopy lead things and tell them to get the line on their dog. There is just too much liability in allowing dogs to roam around for 20 minutes in a vet clinic totally naked. Sorry. But if you work there, I would bring that up in a staff meeting and suggest that a policy for dealing with off-lead dogs needs to be followed.

Keep your dog home.
Don't invite friends' and family's dogs to your house.
Report abuse of policies so that everyone remains safe.

Be part of the solution. 

And, yeah, it is hard for me to understand, because as a large dog owner, these things we do because we don't want to be sued. We don't want family and friends mad at us because our dogs and theirs had a spat and theirs got the worst of it. We don't want our dogs to EVER have a spat. So we keep our dogs safe all the time. If I went into a vet clinic and there was a dog roaming around in there without any apparent restraint, then I would probably leave and not come back. That kind of chaos is not acceptable.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I have never seen any dog running around loose at Newlie's vet. His vet has several good size waiting rooms, in addition to the examination rooms, and the vet techs obviously know the drill. If there are two dogs/owners waiting to go back to the examination room, one is put in one waiting room and the other in the second waiting room. They do not wait until there is trouble, this is a standard operating procedure. Often by the time a third owner/dog comes in, one of the earlier two is ready to go back to be examined, but if there are more than two waiting, everybody spreads out. I guess we all know the vet doesn't want any meet and greet sessions there. When Newlie was more of a handful, I would wait outside with him till they called my name, but the past several times, he has behaved beautifully at the vet, just laid there quietly by my feet. 

I don't mind if people pet Newlie, he is good with people of all ages, but I will not allow him to be crowded or mishandled. Usually, it doesn't come up though, people are intimidated and think he is going to be ferocious, so not many people ask if they can pet him. In addition to being a shepherd, he is tall, I think, has a big head, and looks like he weighs a lot more than he does. At the groomers one time, I had a guy tell me quite seriously that he thought Newlie weighed 120-125 pounds. Newlie weighs between 80-85 pounds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

newlie said:


> I have never seen any dog running around loose at Newlie's vet.


I've seen 3 loose dogs and one on a flexi.

1. coming in the door of the vet's with Jax still in a sling from her acl surgery 2 weeks prior. Had to push and block her against a wall while little dog charged aggressively.

2 Coming out of the exam room area with Jax who has a groin pull injury. Had to push and block her against a wall while little dog charged aggressively.

3. Stupid woman put Chihuahua on floor and lovingly smiled as Snack wondered over to get in face of our St. Bernard/Malamute mix who was laying on the floor with a broken leg. Good thing for Snack that we had Chaos that day and not Jax or Snack really would have been a Snack. 

4. At same vet as 1 and 2 with Jax. BC on a flexi charges across room. I'll give this owner credit though. There was mortification and sincere apology with no excuses. She knew she hosed that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The only dogs I've ever seen off leash at my vet's office were two police dogs. One was being carried out after some kind of surgery goes and was still groggy and the other was so well trained he did exactly what the handler told him perfectly, which is what we would expect. He ignored other dogs and no one complained. I was in awe as I slunk out with my muzzled rescue dog.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I always let people pet my dogs at Petco, Pet Smart, the veterinarians and at the dog parks, basically places where people gather, regardless of purpose, and share a love of animals.


I don't let anyone touch my dog that includes humans and animals.

What pisses me off most as a Dog owner is I have been forced by other people to be a **** to dogs.

A little black thing ran up toward my Dog startled me started barking at my dog right at his feet, I had to kick the dog to get it away then the owner runs up "Sorry about that". Stop being irresponsible Leash your Dog. If my Dog was aggressive that dog would have been killed.

Walking behind this area 2 dogs run up out of nowhere some little thing and a big dog. Grab the Dog by the collar holding him away from mine its vocal but hard to see as I had a Hood on because of winter. Person who runs up I recognize as a Dog trainer he doesn't say anything.... Should know better.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm a jerk, and I am almost certain it has nothing to do with my dogs? 

I don't like to share my stuff. My stuff includes but is not limited to my car, the remote and my dogs.
I am not generally fond of people, especially people in that 6 foot bubble around me that Sabi used to keep people out of, and specifically people who do stupid crap that makes me have to do stuff before coffee ie trying to pet my skittish, leashed, muzzled dog before I have consumed my morning pot of coffee.
I dislike stupid. Stupid in general. I live in a city of a million plus people. We really shouldn't need to tell people to leash their dogs. Hello? Traffic?
When I go out without my dogs, it's because I don't want them to be with me. I don't want anyone elses dog with me either. Make it mind it's manners because if Fluffy jumps on me, I will tell you where to put him.
My yard has a fence around it. That means keep you, your crap, your cat and your body parts on the outside of it.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Oh my gosh this post resonates with me so well. You guys know I run long distance with Archer so his manners are pretty impeccable at this stage. During December I took part in a 31 day challenge on FB to raise money for Console. The object was pretty simple, run 5k or more daily for 31 days- naturally Archer came with me. 
At the start of the month we ran in the mountains as is our wont. But closer to Christmas, I reduced our distances and ran in the city. On a city run Archer is always leashed.
On the Friday before Christmas, we had just completed a 10k canal run and were about to enter a public park on route to our home when a woman got out of her car with a mini schnauzer on a flexi-lead.
The second this dog spotted Archer is flew to the end of the lead, yapping and snarling, running right out onto the road to reach us, although we were on the otherside.
'Oh Alex,' the woman said, softly. 'Alex.'
We ran past, ignoring her and him.
Once in the park we stopped by a bush where ALL the dogs of Dublin seem to have a pee. Run finished, I let Archer take his time and have a good sniff about- we usually walk through this park as a cool off- for me, as a non-working reward for him. 
The woman came in the gate behind us. Alex again tries to strangle himself by lunging at Archer's hind quarters, snapping and yip-yip-yipping.
'Alex, the woman murmured. 'Oh Alex, Alex.'
We ignore Alex and walk on.
At the gate of the tennis courts, Archer stops for a second to sniff the pole. Seconds later, who comes up charging and snapping on the end of his- frankly- useless leash?
'Alex oh'Al–'
Where upon I whirled around and said. 'Lady, if you DON"T control that dog I will punt it straight across the park.'
She looked horrified, reeled him in quick smart and took off in a different direction. 
I was horrified at myself, seriously 'punt'? As I said to my husband when I got home, I don't think I've ever used that word in my life. And the woman in question looked genuinely startled, which I don't like. Nor do I like to give credence to some notion that GSD owners are hot heads. 
But honestly, at some point enough is enough.
Hi, my names is Arlene, and I have acted like a hothead. I vow to do better in the future.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Basically all pure breed owners are pretentious jerks, Bosco.

They think cos they have a piece of paper, their dog is better than a naturally selected mutt.

If it costs more it must be better


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I've seen 3 loose dogs and one on a flexi.
> 
> 1. coming in the door of the vet's with Jax still in a sling from her acl surgery 2 weeks prior. Had to push and block her against a wall while little dog charged aggressively.
> 
> ...


Good! I am glad she at least recognized her mistake. Why do people put dogs on flexi leashes anyway? It doesn't make much sense to me.

I am sure similar things have happened at Newlie's vet, I just have been lucky enough not to be there at the time.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> The only dogs I've ever seen off leash at my vet's office were two police dogs. One was being carried out after some kind of surgery goes and was still groggy and the other was so well trained he did exactly what the handler told him perfectly, which is what we would expect. He ignored other dogs and no one complained. I was in awe as I slunk out with my muzzled rescue dog.


Hahahaha! I qualified for a degree in slinking after I got Newlie!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Worst vet encounter for me was not with a dog but a human.

I had my sweet rescue boy Smitty. A lady picking up meds came up to us and actually demanded that she pet him. I was stunned for a moment. Then I did say "no you aren't entitled to pet him" she said yes she was and I said no, so on. She proceeded to pet him and encourage him to jump on her too.

I felt the anger rising up in me, like I was going to explode but I'd didn't want to make a scene because the level of anger was going to be too high. Fortunately the vet tech called the women ove to the counter and I was able to leave. 

I put Smitty on the car and then, took a breath, looked over at the vet office I actually considered giving her my thoughts outside of the vet office but she was already getting in her car.

She was SUCH a jerk that lady. I still get a little hot under the collar just recalling that episode. I was already stressed because Smitty was sick too.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Worst vet encounter for me was not with a dog but a human.
> 
> I had my sweet rescue boy Smitty. A lady picking up meds came up to us and actually demanded that she pet him. I was stunned for a moment. Then I did say "no you aren't entitled to pet him" she said yes she was and I said no, so on. She proceeded to pet him and encourage him to jump on her too.
> 
> ...


I've body blocked if someone was not being respectful about them (or their dog) not giving my dog space. I haven't had to do that more than once or twice, but it's worked. That lady was a jerk.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Arlene/Archer said:


> Where upon I whirled around and said. 'Lady, if you DON"T control that dog I will punt it straight across the park.'
> She looked horrified, reeled him in quick smart and took off in a different direction.
> I was horrified at myself, seriously 'punt'? As I said to my husband when I got home, I don't think I've ever used that word in my life. And the woman in question looked genuinely startled, which I don't like. Nor do I like to give credence to some notion that GSD owners are hot heads.
> But honestly, at some point enough is enough.
> Hi, my names is Arlene, and I have acted like a hothead. I vow to do better in the future.


So funny! I have to remember that. I wouldn't punt a dog, but I would say it. People can be so stupid.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> *I dislike stupid. Stupid in general.* I live in a city of a million plus people. We really shouldn't need to tell people to leash their dogs. Hello? Traffic?
> When I go out without my dogs, it's because I don't want them to be with me. I don't want anyone elses dog with me either. Make it mind it's manners because if Fluffy jumps on me, I will tell you where to put him.
> *My yard has a fence around it. That means keep you, your crap, your cat and your body parts on the outside of it*.


 Chuckle. This is funny. I could've written this. I used to go far out of my way to be a nice neighbor, and I used to ignore the encroachment of swingsets, toys, plants, tools, etc. After being walked all over, and expending a large sum of money on fencing, I'm becoming less and less tolerant. I enjoy sitting on my deck with a cup of coffee every morning with my dogs, and sometimes with a glass of wine at the end of the day, and anything that disrupts that ritual gets on my nerves. Some day I hope to live on a large piece of property without visible neighbors, but for now.... fencing, and more privacy plantings.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Worst vet encounter for me was not with a dog but a human.


Pretty much sums things up, all of my worst experiences have been with humans. After a few bad run-ins with people trespassing and trying to pet/feed/bother my animals, all of their enclosures are now padlocked, and I have trail cameras pointing at them. I even put up neon signs that say "SMILE YOU'RE ON CAMERA". The idiocy immediately stopped, but it's really sad things had to come to that. Some people have zero sense of personal space, and personal property.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Worst vet encounter for me was not with a dog but a human.
> 
> I had my sweet rescue boy Smitty. A lady picking up meds came up to us and actually demanded that she pet him. I was stunned for a moment. Then I did say "no you aren't entitled to pet him" she said yes she was and I said no, so on. She proceeded to pet him and encourage him to jump on her too.
> 
> ...


I saw a woman nearly get a good bite in the face when she begged some owners to let her take a picture with their dogs at a public event. She put her arm around a very pleasant male GSD and he growled a warning. She ignored him, and he air snapped. His owners were embarrassed. He's never done anything like that before. I was thinking, he's never encountered an invasive, stupid woman before in close quarters. I almost told the owners it's their right to say no, then decided it's their right to figure it out for themselves. I have big conversations with myself over things like this, when to talk, when to let it go. I made a neighbor cry when I told her she was promoting local aggression by letting her dog off leash, and now I have quite a reputation, because she embellished the story to make herself look good.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Gwenhwyfair said:
> 
> 
> > Worst vet encounter for me was not with a dog but a human.
> ...


Some people act like they are nuts and some people are nuts. It sounds like this lady was crazy or looking for a lawsuit of some kind.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> Chuckle. This is funny. I could've written this. I used to go far out of my way to be a nice neighbor, and I used to ignore the encroachment of swingsets, toys, plants, tools, etc. After being walked all over, and expending a large sum of money on fencing, I'm becoming less and less tolerant. I enjoy sitting on my deck with a cup of coffee every morning with my dogs, and sometimes with a glass of wine at the end of the day, and anything that disrupts that ritual gets on my nerves. Some day I hope to live on a large piece of property without visible neighbors, but for now.... fencing, and more privacy plantings.


I'm with you and Sabis Mom: I hate stupid. I think I might even hate stupid more than I hate malicious. It's a tossup, but I think stupid wins.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah. Next to the picnic guy who I watched try to lure the golden away from it's owners with food, this lady was right up there in the koo-koo department. :crazy:

Very pushy, so pushy it took me by surprise. The ironic thing is, had she asked nicely, I would have said sure, go ahead and pet him. Smitty is just a big friendly happy goober. Always has been, too friendly for his own good sometimes.

What I have to remind myself is *most* people aren't like that. 

Sometimes it's hard because just thinking about how pushy and obnoxious that lady was gets my blood boiling. I can't let that cause me to be unkind or snap at other people though.

WIBP I grew up on a farm so I know your pain, also when boarding horses near a park we'd have problems with people trying to feed and pet the horses. I caught one kid trying to hit another person's horse with a stick, oh that time I let the kid have choice words. I kept it clean but told him what a rotten mean brat he was. Brat.

I like your solution though, fences, signs AND cameras!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> I'm with you and Sabis Mom: I hate stupid. I think I might even hate stupid more than I hate malicious. It's a tossup, but I think stupid wins.


Stupid is not the fault of a person. They are mentally challenged. If you are not mentally challenged to that degree, then get down on your knees and thank your creator that he gave you more brains, because it is nothing that you gave yourself. The capacity is there or it is not there. We are not all created equal. Sorry.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Stupid is not the fault of a person. They are mentally challenged. If you are not mentally challenged to that degree, then get down on your knees and thank your creator that he gave you more brains, because it is nothing that you gave yourself. The capacity is there or it is not there. We are not all created equal. Sorry.


My turn!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Stupid is not the fault of a person. They are mentally challenged. If you are not mentally challenged to that degree, then get down on your knees and thank your creator that he gave you more brains, because it is nothing that you gave yourself. The capacity is there or it is not there. We are not all created equal. Sorry.


Sorry, my fault.

I don't mean people who have mental challenges. I don't consider those people stupid. That is a separate concept.

I am talking about people who purportedly have normal intelligence and should have the capability to know better and somehow don't know, or don't think.

My apologies if I offended; I was absolutely unclear on to whom I was referring.

Edit: Interestingly, I was just having this conversation offline in the context of Making a Murderer. I won't hijack the thread, but suffice to say, I was not inclined to call the people featured in that documentary "stupid." I was inclined to believe they were incredibly unfortunate in lacking the capacity to make reasoned choices in the interests of their own self-preservation, and they paid very dearly for it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Sorry, my fault.
> 
> I don't mean people who have mental challenges. I don't consider those people stupid. That is a separate concept.
> 
> ...


Hm I was pretty clear on who you meant by "stupid" myself.

Pretty much people that do have the "ability" to make "good decisions ...but "chose" not to do so.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I guess I don't like the term "stupid." It is brandished about all over the place. Probably my early upbringing, we were not allowed to call people "dummy" or "stupid." For what it is worth, I don't like terms like moron, retard, idiot either. We can all pat ourselves on our backs because we are all smarter than somebody. But who's to blame for that?

Some people do indeed seem to have a talent for making bad choices. Some of those people have a less capacity for thinking, so they do not think things through well. But not all. Some just think they will not get caught, and some do not care about consequences of actions at all. I am probably skipping dozens of other kinds of people. 

But if someone is lacking in intelligence, I don't see how it helps up to hate on them. It's kind of like bullying. If we point out that someone is stupid, by definition we set ourselves up at smarter than that person, so pointing out the other's defects is picking on someone less advantaged than we are. Bullying. 

Chip, I think my serenity prayer goes something like:

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the power to change the things I can change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies...

Yeah, it's not mine, and I am not exactly sure how it goes, but you get the gist.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I guess I don't like the term "stupid." It is brandished about all over the place. Probably my early upbringing, we were not allowed to call people "dummy" or "stupid." For what it is worth, I don't like terms like moron, retard, idiot either. We can all pat ourselves on our backs because we are all smarter than somebody. But who's to blame for that?
> 
> Some people do indeed seem to have a talent for making bad choices. Some of those people have a less capacity for thinking, so they do not think things through well. But not all. Some just think they will not get caught, and some do not care about consequences of actions at all. I am probably skipping dozens of other kinds of people.
> 
> ...


Okay. That's fair. I don't like the term "retard" either, because I think it's offensive to equate a mental or cognitive disability with stupidity. I don't think you and I see eye to eye on this issue as a whole, nor have you taken into account my own tendency to be just as harsh on myself when I make a dumb decision (not that I'd expect you to, because you don't know me, and that expectation would be unfair). My delineation works for me; it wouldn't work for you. We can agree to disagree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boy, I must have my jerk suit on tonight.

See, I don't think it is ok for Jews to diss on other jews and it's ok because they are Jewish; for blacks to call blacks names they would get hot and hairy about if whites used them; for women to put on the I'm-just-a-girl, weak, helpless, victim baloney. And on and on, because every time we do these things we are making them a little more acceptable. I don't think it is ok for me to call everyone else stupid, because when I do something dumb, I call myself stupid. Not ok. For one thing, it is just self-gratifying to point out our weaknesses so that others can reassure us. But even if we do it silently, or when we are alone, we make it just a little more acceptable, we break our own selves down just a little more. Not good. Look at where it goes:

How could I be so stupid -- I can't believe I did that -- Nobody should trust me with...-- I must not be all that bright.

Or, on the other hand, 

Darn! I made a mistake. How did it happen? How can I make sure that doesn't happen again? 

Which sounds better. What do you want your inner-voice to say to you?

We do foolish things. Everyone does. We can use them to lower our opinion of ourselves, or we can use them to learn from and move forward. 

Self-deprecating is just being a bully to yourself. It's kind of the worst of both worlds, both being a bully and being a victim -- both of which are things we shouldn't ever accept.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Okay?

I guess honestly I don't spend that much time thinking about it. Clearly you feel passionately on the topic. I don't think you're a jerk, but I don't feel a need to keep debating. In the name of peace, we will agree to disagree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Okay?
> 
> I guess honestly I don't spend that much time thinking about it. Clearly you feel passionately on the topic. I don't think you're a jerk, but I don't feel a need to keep debating. In the name of peace, we will agree to disagree.


 Na, you ask, could we agree to disagree? 
I maybe say yes, 
I maybe say no.
That is up to me. 

"We will" is trying to force me to bend to your will. 

Smiley faces at the end doesn't change that. 

Fortunately, I don't want to debate this, but the "We will agree to disagree" or We must agree to disagree" is another of my pet peeves. It should be, Can we agree to disagree? Then we both have a choice. 

Your way, if I don't just step away from the conversation, then I am being a jerk. Not fair. 

I'd just say (if anything), "I am not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me, so I'll just drop it."

Whatever. Must be a full moon, or just really boring tonight.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

selzer said:


> Stupid is not the fault of a person. They are *mentally challenged*. If you are not mentally challenged to that degree, then get down on your knees and thank your creator that he gave you more brains, because it is nothing that you gave yourself. The capacity is there or it is not there. We are not all created equal. Sorry.


I dislike this PC-generated euphemism. I think the Caltech and MIT kids are mentally challenged. :crazy: 
And I think dumb, stupid people should be called dumb, stupid people.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

alexg said:


> And I think dumb, stupid people should be called dumb, stupid people.


+1. Call a spade a spade. Trying to please everyone achieves nothing positive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't like pointing out people's deficiencies. Mentally challenged could be MIT. It could be KSU for some people, and it could be HS for some people, and it could be reading for some people. Mentally challenged means they are struggling to produce at whatever level. 

Dumb is being unable to speak.

Most people have no problems at all with "dumb stupid people." what is the proverb, "Even a fool will appear wise if he keeps his mouth shut"? Or something like that. People who feel the need to feel superior to others, feel annoyed with people they deem to have less intelligence by observing their words or their deeds. 

I figure there are plenty of people who have more intelligence than I have, and I have more than plenty of others. It doesn't make me better or worse. What matters is what I do with what I have. But it also matters how I treat others. People are seldom annoyed with people they perceive to be beyond them in intelligence. They have respect for them, and they try to be noticed by them. They only seem to be annoyed by people that are less intelligent. For them, they have contempt. Having contempt or showing contempt for people, due to something they do not have control over is reprehensible.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Just saw this recently and it totally sums up how I feel.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I guess I don't like the term "stupid." It is brandished about all over the place. Probably my early upbringing, we were not allowed to call people "dummy" or "stupid." For what it is worth, I don't like terms like moron, retard, idiot either. We can all pat ourselves on our backs because we are all smarter than somebody. But who's to blame for that?
> 
> Some people do indeed seem to have a talent for making bad choices. Some of those people have a less capacity for thinking, so they do not think things through well. But not all. Some just think they will not get caught, and some do not care about consequences of actions at all. I am probably skipping dozens of other kinds of people.
> 
> But if someone is lacking in intelligence, I don't see how it helps up to hate on them. It's kind of like bullying. If we point out that someone is stupid, by definition we set ourselves up at smarter than that person, so pointing out the other's defects is picking on someone less advantaged than we are. Bullying.


 I don't believe that the truly disabled was the "intended target" ??? 

The subject title of the thread?? Yes most likely that could have been me?? Don't know?? I had a "bubble dog" and my foremost concern was keeping him safe and "letting him do no harm to others!" And I was pretty much firmly "committed" to doing just that!

The practicality of what can be done pretty much is "situation" dependent. I don't live in a high population density area, so one on situations were pretty common.

My "obligation was to my dog and the "welfare/safety" of others. And I was pretty firmly committed to doing just that. If I saw what, maybe perhaps was a possibly someone wanting to "pet" my "Bubble Dog" situation???" They "would" have no choice "but" to go thru me. Full body block "Rocky" to the rear. They had no choice but to ask. And I "always" took the time to explain why not.

People I believe seemed to understand and accept my explanation?? No big deal by and large.

The truly "disable" and for purposes of this thread I do mean, not by choice. My policy of "NO??" That is/was and can be hard!

I ran across that once, ... young man mentally handicapped and I "felt" I had to say "NO."

That might not be that big a deal to some ... but when you go from a "Boxer" that luv'ed ...uh "everyone!" It was very hard to say "No" you can't pet my dog, to someone that may not understand??? Doing that broke my heart! 

These days "Rocky" has "proven" that people are not a big deal. I am not as "anal" about keeping people out of his face as I used to be!

He has "proven" to be "safe" but "I" can't let go of the past! I actually got steamrolled by a 13 year old! I did what I do "body block." And he asked me why he could not pet my dog?? As at this point I "understood" my reasons for saying "NO" were no longer valid. I stepped aside and allowed him to interact with "Rocky." No big deal, Rocky was fine with it! 

I work with the "truly" mentally disabled myself and I'm pretty certain that the "OP" was not directing there comment at them??

I'm pretty sure the "comment" was directed at the fully mentally abled folks that make an active choice to "choose" to be "ignorant???"

And ... so "you" know ... this ^^^^, what I hope is a well thought out reply, ... I got (my ability to do that) from you! 


I have been working hard on getting out of the "bad" dog in the "Dog Park" thing! 













selzer said:


> Chip, I think my serenity prayer goes something like:
> 
> * Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the power to change the things I can change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies...
> *
> Yeah, it's not mine, and I am not exactly sure how it goes, but you get the gist.


LOL luv it!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Just saw this recently and it totally sums up how I feel.


Beautiful dog! And ...yes!


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

I believe it is "Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the strength to change the things I cannot accept", something like that...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't like pointing out people's deficiencies. Mentally challenged could be MIT. It could be KSU for some people, and it could be HS for some people, and it could be reading for some people. Mentally challenged means they are struggling to produce at whatever level.
> 
> Dumb is being unable to speak.
> 
> ...


 I know as the saying from a wise old ow!.:


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I guess I can kind of see both sides of the equation. Most of the talk about stupid, I think, was more tongue in cheek than anything else and was not meant to offend anyone because of conditions they cannot help. But it is easy to fall into throwing words around a little carelessly. Ask me how many times I mutter the word "idiot" when I am driving around town.

I got a little curious and decided to look up the word "stupid" and "ignorant" in the dictionary. Under "stupid" it said "lacking quickness of mind" but it also said "foolish or senseless" behavior. All of us behave stupidly at one time or another. "Ignorant" seemed to be more about being "uninformed or unaware." I guess you could argue that someone who puts their face right by the mouth of a unknown GSD that's growling could be described either way.

Again, I know the question wasn't really all that serious, but malice in my mind is so much worse than stupidity. To deliberately set about and plot and scheme to hurt someone is in an entirely different league than someone making a foolish choice.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> > Okay?
> ...


technically we kind of HAVE to agree to disagree. I mean, you're not changing your mind and I'm not changing mine (both of which are perfectly fine and valid, by the way!). So we disagree. If we don't agree that we are doing that, then we are saying we actually agree, when really we don't, and that's a place I'm not going tonight. 

Truthfully, at this point, I will stipulate to and apologize for anything you want in order to end this peacefully. Because I am way too tired to talk anymore and absolutely anything you want - consider it said. I mean, if you want to debate more be my guest but I'm signing off for the night to go clean up the kitchen and then crash.

Because this is how tired I am: I mean, if we want to talk about doing dumb things, I was blending veggies for the dog and started the blender without the blade in there. Took me literally 5 seconds to realize this. Turns out bladeless blenders do not chop well.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I like that phrase "some people have a talent for making poor choices". Be it ignorance or foolishness I will be firm with people of the cross a boundary I've clearly stated. I mean if someone gets hurt, our fault or not, the " bad dog" will get the blame.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Tart at least you put the top on


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> I don't believe that the truly disabled was the "intended target" ???
> 
> The subject title of the thread?? Yes most likely that could have been me?? Don't know?? I had a "bubble dog" and my foremost concern was keeping him safe and "letting him do no harm to others!" And I was pretty much firmly "committed" to doing just that!
> 
> ...


 Yes, but, one does not have to have an IQ that measures on a scale that would be considered disabled to be less able than many people walking around out there. 

Most of what dog-people on dog-forums are frustrated about/categorize people as stupid for is a lack of dog etiquette, or a lack of common sense when it comes to dogs. I think we ought to be examples of positive dog etiquette, and we should explain when we are given a good opening. I don't mean letting people have it when they do something foolish, but rather model proper behavior, and when someone seems open to a suggestion, give one in a manner that is unlikely to raise up defenses.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm curious if this is a topic on other breed forums?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

newlie said:


> I guess I can kind of see both sides of the equation. Most of the talk about stupid, I think, was more tongue in cheek than anything else and was not meant to offend anyone because of conditions they cannot help. But it is easy to fall into throwing words around a little carelessly. Ask me how many times I mutter the word "idiot" when I am driving around town.
> 
> I got a little curious and decided to look up the word "stupid" and "ignorant" in the dictionary. Under "stupid" it said "lacking quickness of mind" but it also said "foolish or senseless" behavior. All of us behave stupidly at one time or another. "Ignorant" seemed to be more about being "uninformed or unaware." I guess you could argue that someone who puts their face right by the mouth of a unknown GSD that's growling could be described either way.
> 
> Again, I know the question wasn't really all that serious, but malice in my mind is so much worse than stupidity. To deliberately set about and plot and scheme to hurt someone is in an entirely different league than someone making a foolish choice.


 Good post. I particularly like the last part about malice being much worse than stupidity.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> technically we kind of HAVE to agree to disagree. I mean, you're not changing your mind and I'm not changing mine (both of which are perfectly fine and valid, by the way!). So we disagree. If we don't agree that we are doing that, then we are saying we actually agree, when really we don't, and that's a place I'm not going tonight.
> 
> Truthfully, at this point, I will stipulate to and apologize for anything you want in order to end this peacefully. Because I am way too tired to talk anymore and absolutely anything you want - consider it said. I mean, if you want to debate more be my guest but I'm signing off for the night to go clean up the kitchen and then crash.
> 
> Because this is how tired I am: I mean, if we want to talk about doing dumb things, I was blending veggies for the dog and started the blender without the blade in there. Took me literally 5 seconds to realize this. Turns out bladeless blenders do not chop well.


 Good night. I am not agreeing with anything, because I too am running out of gas.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cloudpump said:


> I'm curious if this is a topic on other breed forums?


What exactly IS the topic? The only theme I can find is "stupid" but the object of stupidity keeps changing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> I'm curious if this is a topic on other breed forums?


 
Do mean like, do Boxer or Yorkie people discuss how the world perceives of them as dog owners? 

Interesting, I wouldn't know. I once thought of going onto another breed's forum and ask some questions, but then someone pointed out what a jerk I would be if I did that. (Troll) And since I only have sheps, I am not on any other breed's breed-specific forum.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> What exactly IS the topic? The only theme I can find is "stupid" but the object of stupidity keeps changing.


 The topic is something to do with how GSD owners are perceived as jerks. 

And if we go around thinking that lots of other people are stupid, then lots of other people probably do think we are jerks.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The German Shepherd is an honest dog. When you take one into your life, you better be able to meet an honest dog. If all is well on breeding and temperament and you properly train a German Shepherd Dog.... There will be little surprises....

If you want to treat a German Shepherd Dog like another breed of dog, you will likely run into some problems. It is a herding dog, it guards, it's on the larger side of dog breeds, it requires lots of mental and physical stimulation.

It is not a breed to cage for 16 or more hours per day. It's not a breed to want to take everywhere because you want a social butterfly in a big dog suit.

They're an honest breed, there history and legacy is the most documented of any breed. If you don't want what the GSD is - don't bring one into your house and expect them to be anything other than what they are.

They are what they are - try to make them something else - and be a part of filling the kill pounds.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)




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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jax08 said:


>


Bovine Excrement. You care.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> Bovine Excrement. You care.



I really don't. 

But I have been just DYING to find a place to use that picture since I saw it a few days ago!! I finally found a place it fit! :wild: I cared deeply about that!


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I really don't.
> 
> But I have been just DYING to find a place to use that picture since I saw it a few days ago!! I finally found a place it fit! :wild: I cared deeply about that!


Lol! You're so much more creative and fun about it. The only contribution I can muster is 
"blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . "

/ducks


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

viking said:


> Lol! You're so much more creative and fun about it. The only contribution I can muster is
> "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . "
> 
> /ducks


Only a jerk would NOT love Grumpy Cat!!!


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg


onyx'girl FTW!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Jane!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


>


LOL luv it and saved! Grumpy cat!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Do mean like, do Boxer or Yorkie people discuss how the world perceives of them as dog owners?


LOL, I think I can safely speak for members on BoxerForum??? And the answer would be nope never comes up. We take our dogs view of people "Everybody" luv's us!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

There was a boxer owner that I was not in luv' with a couple of weeks ago.

I'm trying to bike a little with my dog. Neighbor keeps letting the boxer run loose,

Due to this I abort biking session twice in one day.

Next day try again. Watch for loose boxer, is it safe?

Garage door open, bad sign. I decide to chance it.

Sure enough dog is loose again. Runs to greet my dog. I manage to stop my bike, while trying to get off I loose my balance and fall hard, hip on the sharp edge of the curb.

I'm laying there, in a lot of pain, boxer owner, "don't worry, he's friendly"

Followed by "I don't know why he does that". 

I did not act like a jerk. I did say she needs to keep the dog contained. Her kids run right into the street after the dog. :crazy:

Now if I loose it one day then I'll be the GSD owning jerk I guess.

Where's the honey badger when you need them?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There was a boxer owner that I was not in luv' with a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> I'm trying to bike a little with my dog. Neighbor keeps letting the boxer run loose,
> 
> ...


 I'd be all indignant at them for you, but I just realized that you were riding a bicycle in December. That indicates weather that is much better than what we normally receive in December. So now I am jealous, and my capacity for indignant feelings have been swallowed up with an intense desire to blow my tires up and ride my bike. 

Sorry.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I'm a "jerk" GSD owner because I get frustrated with people whose dogs who are ill mannered. Apparently it makes me mean to think your dog of any breed or size should not be an A*hole. How rude of me..


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

I look at it this way. If others look at your dog as scary and wont come near you then you're better off not having to deal with that person in the first place


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> I'd be all indignant at them for you, but I just realized that you were riding a bicycle in December. That indicates weather that is much better than what we normally receive in December. So now I am jealous, and my capacity for indignant feelings have been swallowed up with an intense desire to blow my tires up and ride my bike.
> 
> Sorry.


There are some benefits to living in the south. Some....


Hehehe.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There was a boxer owner that I was not in luv' with a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> I'm trying to bike a little with my dog. Neighbor keeps letting the boxer run loose,
> 
> ...


Well unfortunately the "stu ..." let's say ... less intelligent among us are free to own any breed they chose. 

As a member of the "Boxer" clan let "me" extend an apology for that "irresponsible" "ignorant" owner! 

Rest assured they are not a member of "Boxerforum" and if they are??? Then they are lurking!
If they come on there and tell "us" they are "allowing" "stupid, irresponsible" behavior like that, they will be taken to task!

If you go by see the dogs and the garage door is open and the dog doesn't rush out ... then you know they've found us! We don't handle sigh ... the uninformed well, they would know they "need" to make some changes!"

Because:


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Pertaining to the thread title : Yeah....so?


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There are some benefits to living in the south. Some....
> 
> 
> Hehehe.


 There are benefits of living up here too. People keep telling me that when I am stuck in ditches and shoveling snow. Oh yeah, I have to purchase propane again. Not sure if you have to buy that down there, but I am pretty sure your overall heating bill has to be incredible compared to mine.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In bold, but wait a minute, that would make boxer owners "jerks" too. 

See. Those affable sweet dogs fool ya. You are a bunch of meanies. :laugh:

Btw I want to see a video of all your dogs holding a down while a strange cat walks by. 




Chip18 said:


> Well unfortunately the "stu ..." let's say ... less intelligent among us are free to own any breed they chose.
> 
> As a member of the "Boxer" clan let "me" extend an apology for that "irresponsible" "ignorant" owner!
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> There are benefits of living up here too. People keep telling me that when I am stuck in ditches and shoveling snow. Oh yeah, I have to purchase propane again. Not sure if you have to buy that down there, but I am pretty sure your overall heating bill has to be incredible compared to mine.


We pay more for AC in th summer have more bugs longer, more fleas and ticks longer. 

I'd move back north if I didn't have to drive to work in snow. If I could telecommute/work from home I'd do it in a heartbeat. 

I grew up in the snowy white north. :snowflake::snowmen:


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> We pay more for AC in th summer have more bugs longer, more fleas and ticks longer.
> 
> I'd move back north if I didn't have to drive to work in snow. If I could telecommute/work from home I'd do it in a heartbeat.
> 
> I grew up in the snowy white north. :snowflake::snowmen:


Just move to the midwest and have the worst of both worlds.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Wags said:


> Just move to the midwest and have the worst of both worlds.


My north will involve some mountains, small cabin with solar and mild winters.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh and NO fire ants. those little monsters are making their way north though....watch out.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> My north will involve some mountains, small cabin with solar and mild winters.


Yes, I can't wait to get back to the PNW. Washington... only like 4 years left until I can move back.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can have the fire ants and killer bees and alligators and poisonous everything.

AC is optional around here.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I miss the deep south...I do NOT miss the fire ants! I nearly striped nekkid in my yard one day as they crawled up my leg over my socks and shoes. But here I have yellow jackets. I am letting the moles tunnel through my yard in hopes that they will eat the "ground bees" and yellow jacket wasps. Just wish my dogs didn't delight in digging up the mole tunnels.

Missed a "jerk" opportunity today. Out on a pack walk A gentleman tried to tell our big dog to sit. Of course he did not obey, just stared at the guy. My husband made the command and down went the butt. The man then asked if he could pat our dog. My husband allowed it but as the stranger, approached you could tell he really didn't know how to come to a dog he didn't know. 

On the way home from our walk I told my hubby about this thread. We need to educate people. Yes, sometimes we sound like a jerk but it has to be done.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Fire ants are the bane of my IPO tracking existence. Nothing worse then laying a long track, aging it, only to have the bait literally seething with fire ants in less then 10 minutes. They like protein and carbs and sweet or salty, dry or moist. Fire ants eat anything!

I have been researching how to make bait that is good and safe for dogs but the ants will leave alone.

I wonder, if I come up with the proper concoction, patent it, will I be able to retire with swimmin' pools and movie stars?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Armadillos have made their way up here. The locals born and raised here have never seen armadillos this far north in GA. They are amusing but carry lots of diseases.

The worst is the FLYING HUGE cockroaches oh and scorpions here too.




selzer said:


> You can have the fire ants and killer bees and alligators and poisonous everything.
> 
> AC is optional around here.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Fire ants are the bane of my IPO tracking existence. Nothing worse then laying a long track, aging it, only to have the bait literally seething with fire ants in less then 10 minutes. They like protein and carbs and sweet or salty, dry or moist. Fire ants eat anything!
> 
> I have been researching how to make bait that is good and safe for dogs but the ants will leave alone.
> 
> I wonder, if I come up with the proper concoction, patent it, will I be able to retire with swimmin' pools and movie stars?


I had some kind of fire ants in my yard and I used DE, it got rid of them really quick. You could probably use that on the bait and it will kill the ants if they disturb it. I don't think it smells, so it won't change the smell of the bait and it's safe to eat if that happens


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh yeah, Dimatacious earth. (sp).

The Problem...

Any bait the ants have to eat and ingest and then go off to die later is no help for tracking.  They get so bad that they sting the dogs paws just walking near the bait.

I need something that they are not attracted to begin with.

I may try that though, sprinkle a little DE into the bait bag, shake it up so it clings to the bait and test it out.



llombardo said:


> I had some kind of fire ants in my yard and I used DE, it got rid of them really quick. You could probably use that on the bait and it will kill the ants if they disturb it. I don't think it smells, so it won't change the smell of the bait and it's safe to eat if that happens


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Armadillos have made their way up here. The locals born and raised here have never seen armadillos this far north in GA. They are amusing but carry lots of diseases.
> 
> The worst is the FLYING HUGE cockroaches oh and scorpions here too.



Don't they call the flying huge cockroaches, Palmetto bugs? 

I've never seen an armadillo. Ok. I have never been south of northern Kentucky, and that was when I was about 9 years old, for 2-3 days. And all I really remember was:

Night one: the station wagon broke down and my three brothers, two sisters and my dad slept in the back of the station wagon, while my mother slept in the front seat. 

Night two: we stopped at a small motel, and Dad slept in the car again because he saw a cockroach. The rest of us slept in the rooms. 

Dad ended up with chiggars because we went black-berry picking out in the back of my cousin's grandmother's property.

My cousin was a bit of a brat, and her dad had been murdered and her mother should have been neutered, and she was being raised by her grandmother. And while we were there, for some reason, I walked in on her grandmother whipping her with a belt, and she looked at me and asked me if I wanted some. 

Ah nostalgic memories of years gone by. That old woman has probably been gone for years. I really don't know. My mother sent gifts for my cousin every year at Christmas, because her dad was dead. Her brother's daughter, and my father's sister's son, were the only cousins my mother bought for because they didn't have dads, and my mother always had too many brats to buy for everyone. But we never heard from my cousin. Sad really. I think she called and told us once that they moved up this way, but one contact in over 30 years. Mom stopped sending presents when she was in her late teens I think. 

But Dad got chiggars that summer from Kentucky, and we stayed up in Ohio from thence on.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

whoa Sue.  

Palmetto bugs, yeah they call them that in Florida. I think they have some different names up in GA though. 

They don't bother me so much as the scorpions do. *shudder*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> whoa Sue.
> 
> Palmetto bugs, yeah they call them that in Florida. I think they have some different names up in GA though.
> 
> They don't bother me so much as the scorpions do. *shudder*


 I never saw a scorpion up close and personal. 

I made a mistake up there. My youngest sister wasn't born then, so it was just the one sister and my three brothers. Interesting story, the whole of it, but not really mine to tell. Mostly sad.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In bold, but wait a minute, that would make boxer owners "jerks" too.


My bad I was trying to type while Windows 10 was "upgrading" to ...Windows 10???
I meant that when new members show up on Boxerforum "we" let them know if changes are needed. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> See. Those affable sweet dogs fool ya. You are a bunch of meanies. :laugh:


 Well all the "Boxer" owners I've met were pretty cool! But ... "finally" I saw a Female Flashy Boxer, that seemed pretty much like a throwback to the 40's! 

She was "safely" contained behind a fence, the owners stopped us (Rocky and I) and asked about "Rocky" (And ... I was not a jerk. ) They said they had a Boxer! I asked questions and they said would I like to see her! But of course!

She was a Flashy and to say "dog aggressive" would be an understatement! She never made a sound, hmm and neither does Rocky. She was as I say behind a fence and the owners were straining on the leash to hold her back!

That "Boxer" was no Struddell! I have never seen a "Boxer" look like that before??? Clearly "not" a dog you would want to meet at a "Dog Park!" 

I've just not seen that kind of "I will mess you up bad" look on a "Boxer!" I was stunned?? I bet it was a Euro ...just saying. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Btw I want to see a video of all your dogs holding a down while a strange cat walks by.


 Sadly "all" are no longer with me ... only "Rocky" remains. 

I can post a clip of Rocky and Spooky(tiny Blk Cat), she luv's him, he could careless.  Rocky has been "actually" proofed with cats!

All my dogs were excellent with cats, the others actually liked them. At home when the dogs went out, the cats that were allowed outside ran to greet them and Gunther and Struddell would dip there heads in greeting! 

Rocky, I watched like a hawk on walks more so than the others and I would see cats that I was sure he must have seen??

One walk I saw one cat then a second about 20 feet away, to the side. He has to see them I thought?? We walk forward, I look at "Rocky" and "nothing??" Zero response, I cant be sure he did see them??

Then one day on another walk I am cleaning up after him. He is off leash about five feet from me. I look up and 10 feet away is a large Black cat at the entrance to a gate . The cat see's Rocky who this time has to see him because he is looking right at him! I look at "Rocky" I'm ready to say "Stay" 
and yet again ...."nothing" zero reaction he doesn't even "perceive" cats they are a "Zero" entity for him.

I have strays hop the fence and eat out of outside dishes right above his head and again nothing! That bit was the same with my other dogs. I noticed it happening one day when I saw Struddell and a big Grey Cat, I did not know??Eating dinner right above her on the table?? The strays never gave the dogs a second glance! 

So yep the Cat on Parade, not a big deal for me. And oh yes that would be "Struddell" of "Jack Rabbit" fame, so plenty of "prey drive there .. just not with cats.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You missed the point Chip.

People who correct another person's irresponsible behavior are often considered "jerks"

You said you and your boxer gang would correct a person like my neighbor.

Therefore boxer owners are "jerks" too. 

My contention is, in general 'cause there are always exceptions, anyone who owns a dog (regardless of breed) that cares about training well, will be considered a jerk when they cross paths with an irresponsible dog owner and speak up about it. 

As for having *multiple dogs trained by you* to hold a sit while a strange cat walks in front of them out in an open public area, if there's no video, it didn't happen. It happened to me yesterday with one dog, Stihl, while we were out tracking but only one dog and no video. So no brag.


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Today I took Kaja to pet store, to buy some tasty treats to work on our recall and other stuff. 

Saleswoman had this Chinese dog behind counter and when this dog smelled Kaja, she barked like crazy. Kaja was like :"What the **** is your problem" and tried to go to her, showing :"Hey, is ok, just me, lets play". Kaja was totally well behaved, she sat down and respected my orders, this other dog still screaming like crazy. 

Then I was a jerk, to go in to a pet store with my dog? I asked the saleswoman if this dog is afraid of other dogs or if she had some traumatic experience.... And she laughed at me and said :"Nooo, she's just small and territorial". 

When I was outside, I thought the same thing : If my 7 months old shepherd would be doing that, I would be asked not to come to the store anymore, people would scream that I need to take her to school and why she's not wearing a muzzle.

**** double standards.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You missed the point Chip.
> 
> As for having *multiple dogs trained by you* to hold a sit while a strange cat walks in front of them out in an open public area, if there's no video, it didn't happen. It happened to me yesterday with one dog, Stihl, while we were out tracking but only one dog and no video. So no brag.


No video no brag? Oh you are one of those kinda jerks. doncha know that as soon as you pick up the phone or the camera the dogs stop what they are doing to see what you just picked up" "hey, whatcha got there? Can I see? Can I help?" Happens to me alllll the time. Except once during IPO practice, my dog heard the camera shutter release, turned from the helper and then looked at me as if to smile for the camera. My club members broke out laughing.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

car2ner said:


> No video no brag? Oh you are one of those kinda jerks. doncha know that as soon as you pick up the phone or the camera the dogs stop what they are doing to see what you just picked up" "hey, whatcha got there? Can I see? Can I help?" Happens to me alllll the time. Except once during IPO practice, my dog heard the camera shutter release, turned from the helper and then looked at me as if to smile for the camera. My club members broke out laughing.



So cute i love the ingrained reflex


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! I'm the avoid being an internet expert as much as possible kind of 'jerk'. :blush:

All I have is my cell phone and I put it on silent, no click sound, hint, hint.  

If you're using an old non-digital camera, you're screwed I guess click,click,click,click.

OH I just thought it over, I bet people who clicker train and used cameras that click have all kinds of trouble. :help:

I actually have some video of Stihl doing puppy bite work, Ilda loose leash walking under distraction, Ilda tracking, Smitty doing his Zebu imitation. Oh and my veggie garden, I did post up a video of my veggie garden. Plants do an awesome sit - stay.

The only one I've posted up here of dogs is Smitty. Cause he's my sweet rescue goober. :wub:

Now if Chipster can line up some 20 dogs and have a cat walk in front of them like the picture he claims his dogs emulate in training threads, video it, I'll be the first to say AWESOME work! :wild:






car2ner said:


> No video no brag? Oh you are one of those kinda jerks. doncha know that as soon as you pick up the phone or the camera the dogs stop what they are doing to see what you just picked up" "hey, whatcha got there? Can I see? Can I help?" Happens to me alllll the time. Except once during IPO practice, my dog heard the camera shutter release, turned from the helper and then looked at me as if to smile for the camera. My club members broke out laughing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jimmy Buffett wisdom. Anyone who thinks they are not a fruitcake is a jerk. :laugh::wild::shocked:

Nope, I've not had a margarita yet.........today.

Keep on baking.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

To be accurate .. I did say "my" dogs. I use the photo as a "reference" to "show" dog/cat owners how there dog can do. I "assumed" that was fairly clear to people??


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As for having *multiple dogs trained by you* to hold a sit while a strange cat walks in front of them out in an open public area,


What? You can't do that?


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Jimmy Buffett wisdom. Anyone who thinks they are not a fruitcake is a jerk. :laugh::wild::shocked:
> 
> Nope, I've not had a margarita yet.........today.
> 
> Keep on baking.


Perfect!!!!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hehehehe. 

I'll worry about that when I get a nice attention heel. 

Did I say this IPO stuff is hard yet? 

In case I haven't, this IPO stuff is hard.

Chip, back in the oven with ya. 

RZZNSTR glad you got a chuckle. 





Jax08 said:


> What? You can't do that?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hehehehe.
> 
> I'll worry about that when I get a nice attention heel.
> 
> ...


Are you really having problems with the heel? I love heeling. Finally figure out my left turns. For some reason my brain doesn't go to the left so that was difficult for me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Are you really having problems with the heel? I love heeling. Finally figure out my left turns. For some reason my brain doesn't go to the left so that was difficult for me.


I don't like it. Recall. Sit. Down. Fun. Loose leash walk, fine.

Fuss. 

I'll get it, eventually. :crazy: it's me I get all discombobulated, don't know where my dog is. 

Love tracking though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

do you work with a mirror?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> do you work with a mirror?


No, not at this time but it's been suggested and I do plan on implementing it soon. 

:thumbup:


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

the hardest part of IPO is when 3 or 4 club members are yelling advice the same time the training director is


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Car2ner!!!

LOL!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> No, not at this time but it's been suggested and I do plan on implementing it soon.
> 
> :thumbup:


Do that. Just a cheapo full length from Walmart will do. Then you can see where he is and his movement and just look down with your eyes to see where he is when he's in position. You'll be able to start feeling it.



car2ner said:


> the hardest part of IPO is when 3 or 4 club members are yelling advice the same time the training director is


:rofl:


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

You're not a jerk . . you're an elitist


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