# Elbows first Down. We are Clueless!



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

This is our fifth and final verbal command to master this week. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to lure Jack into position. At my wits end. Please help!!

I'm luring down and back between his front paws, but he goes cockeyed. He just can't figure out what the heck I'm asking him to do. 

Tips please!!!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sorry, what are you trying to teach? The down? 


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## Aliqua (May 16, 2013)

You trying to teach down/drop? Handful of food and push it towards his nose and then down towards his chest and to the floor.

Ill record tonight and upload. It's like if you push towards him and down he has to drop so his nose can follow. Good for IPO to cos they don't move forward on the drop. More the back end moves back.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I think she wants a fast down where the dog drops hard??? Im not sure but I think you get that via drive. Build the drive up and the sits and downs get very sudden and correct.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I think some dogs just pick up some commands faster than others. Roxy learned down in about 5 attempts at it. NOW my problem is if I'm doing obedience with her she thinks if she does down before I tell her she still gets a treat. so she's too quick with the routine and I have to really mix it up...and try not to laugh cuz she wants to shortcut everything


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

have you tried to find some youtube videos? that tab guy ( just search train german shepherd) ..he's really good with the basic commands and teaching them ..he goes by tab something


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)




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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

volcano said:


> I think she wants a fast down where the dog drops hard??? Im not sure but I think you get that via drive. Build the drive up and the sits and downs get very sudden and correct.


Yes. I want a fast down, elbows first. An IPO down. 

I have a low drive rescue. 

I ruined him with a lazy butt-first down and am trying to start over with a competition down. 

I'm luring down and straight back, he's compensating with a sideways follow, still butt first . I'm not rewarding, and he is crazy confused. 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> have you tried to find some youtube videos? that tab guy ( just search train german shepherd) ..he's really good with the basic commands and teaching them ..he goes by tab something


That's a good idea. Hitting YouTube!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> I think some dogs just pick up some commands faster than others. Roxy learned down in about 5 attempts at it. NOW my problem is if I'm doing obedience with her she thinks if she does down before I tell her she still gets a treat. so she's too quick with the routine and I have to really mix it up...and try not to laugh cuz she wants to shortcut everything


Yep. Sounds like Jack. He wants to sit first every time... Cause that's all I ever expected. Now I'm starting over with him, and bless his heart, he doesn't get it. I know it's My Bad 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Aliqua said:


> You trying to teach down/drop? Handful of food and push it towards his nose and then down towards his chest and to the floor.
> 
> Ill record tonight and upload. It's like if you push towards him and down he has to drop so his nose can follow. Good for IPO to cos they don't move forward on the drop. More the back end moves back.
> 
> ...


I'm doing that, but he twists sideways. Tries to jump over and around the lure. I need maybe a wall or something? 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Low drive for food? Low drive for toys? Can you get him amped for anything? 

I would say get him amped for something then use that for the reward. It can be anything, heavy praise, food, toy, chest thumping, doing a jig together, whatever. Figure out what motivates the dog. You have to be very quick. If he hesitates, reset, get him moving and try again. 

You won't get a quick drivey down without teaching the dog to work in drive. So you need to tap into a drive the dog has. 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm trying to get him amped. He aims to please, but I can't quite call it drive. We're on some serious NILIF. Three fails, and he goes back in the crate. Five mins, then back to "Let's Work!" 

He's trying. Just not hard enough. I'm withholding. He is working for every morsel. We have a nice sit, twirl, spin, and place as of today. The dog is dropping pounds in his efforts. Just no drop  He can do this, though. I just need to be able to get him there once. I need help with positioning. I'm going down and back between the paws. He doesn't understand. 


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## Aliqua (May 16, 2013)

volcano said:


> I think she wants a fast down where the dog drops hard??? Im not sure but I think you get that via drive. Build the drive up and the sits and downs get very sudden and correct.


Once he knows the command and you can execute it with high energy the dog will perform with high energy. You have to walk before you can run...


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Aliqua said:


> Once he knows the command and you can execute it with high energy the dog will perform with high energy. You have to walk before you can run...
> 
> 
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So maybe I'm asking too much right now. We're still building drive. Maybe I can leave this command and keep focusing on attention and follow me and pick it up again in a couple of weeks?


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

try that video I posted for you ...tab is amazing with his training ...


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

he will get it..I'm sure of it


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> try that video I posted for you ...tab is amazing with his training ...


I watched. And I've seen that trainer before and respect him. But he's teaching a bottom first down. I need an elbows first down. How to lure an elbows first position. 

Thank you, though!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JackandMattie said:


> I watched. And I've seen that trainer before and respect him. But he's teaching a bottom first down. *I need an elbows first down*. How to lure an elbows first position.


Why?


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## Aliqua (May 16, 2013)

Just thinking... If your dog wants to sit first, teach it to stand... then when they sit, tell them to stand.. and from the stand they will wait for next command (will help later down the track when you are going to mix it up)... Furthermore nothing wrong with "na-ah" or a softer "no" to tell them "you haven't 'quite' got it .. but you're close... my guy responds to that really well ... like "hrm.. i did what he asked but why arent i getting a treat... i'll try it faster next time.. or i'll try be straighter next time"...

if you want elbows down first why not teach it to 'beg' first (ass in the air) and then progress the trick to the full drop? exactly like we teach them with dumbbells.. to touch first before we get them to hold... ? same theory i think -- sorry i'm rambling now 

Do a drop? use a second person to hold his ass up while you apply pressure to his shoulder blades to assist him in dropping his front end down first? -- sorry again just going through other options...

-

Good luck!  I taught my guy to "touch" my hand with his nose today... using the command "Hier" .. then i moved further away and he came to me (wherever i was) and touched my hand with his nose.. then i removed my hand and he realised he was still getting treats by coming to me... "Hier" taught...

*be creative*


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

How old is the puppy? If really young, it may not have the coordination for it yet. 

I teach it while in motion. I lure the dog around then with a treat in my left hand, I push slightly back and down on the puppies nose. Because you were in motion it cause the puppy to stop in it's tracks and you're guiding the front down making the rear fold down. As they start to get it, I transition to slight pressure going back and down on the shoulders(as I start to fade out the hand). I always teach and practice the downs while moving. If I get a chance later I will make a video doing this with my puppy. I hope this helps.

Oh and don't worry about speed yet. Speed comes with the dogs understanding of the command and the state of drive it is in. First the puppy needs to be 100% clear on what is being expected.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Does your dog know how to bow on cue?

If not, one approach would be to try teaching that first, because it's elbows down/butt in the air. Same luring method as everyone else has been describing, if you're doing it with a lure (this one is also usually pretty easy to capture if your dog is playful and familiar with capturing as a concept). Slice it REALLY THINLY with a clicker and reward for incremental muscle movements in the right direction if you're having difficulty getting the whole behavior in one go.

Then repeat repeat repeat until the dog is to the point of offering Bow as the #1 spontaneous "this will get me a cookie!" behavior. Then continue shaping the Bow into the Down you want (probably easiest to do this by thin-slicing movements of the butt downward, but I don't know exactly how your dog moves).

re: getting a fast Down -- I think if you're working with a low-energy rescue, you may never get the super fast "drop like you've been shot" Down from motion that I see PyrSheps and Malinois do in the obedience ring. Also, some dogs just plain can't do it for physical reasons. A snappy Down is often one of the first things to go as a dog gets older and more arthritic, and while Pongu's still a young dog, I think his old foot injury prevents him from dropping as fast as some others. I can get an ultrafast Down out of Crookytail, but Pongu has always been a lot slower to hit the ground.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Why?


Because that's what my trainer told me to do  Maybe I'm more obedient than my dog, lol.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Aliqua said:


> Do a drop? use a second person to hold his ass up while you apply pressure to his shoulder blades to assist him in dropping his front end down first? -- sorry again just going through other options...


I was wondering if using a second person to physically manipulate the dog would be a good idea. It feels like cheating, so idk...but does that even matter? He just needs to understand the position I'm asking for...


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> How old is the puppy? If really young, it may not have the coordination for it yet.
> 
> I teach it while in motion. I lure the dog around then with a treat in my left hand, I push slightly back and down on the puppies nose. Because you were in motion it cause the puppy to stop in it's tracks and you're guiding the front down making the rear fold down. As they start to get it, I transition to slight pressure going back and down on the shoulders(as I start to fade out the hand). I always teach and practice the downs while moving. If I get a chance later I will make a video doing this with my puppy. I hope this helps.
> 
> Oh and don't worry about speed yet. Speed comes with the dogs understanding of the command and the state of drive it is in. First the puppy needs to be 100% clear on what is being expected.


I wish he were a puppy. This is my 2-1/2 year old rescue. We are coming very late to this, but I want my own little Recon someday, so I'm really doing this to train myself 

I like the moving idea. I think that might get us past a hurdle. When we start from a still position he just tries to lean around/over my arm to get to the treat. I can see that if we were already in motion it might help.

Yeah, I'm not worried about speed right now. Ultimately, of course, but right now I just want him to move the right way.

Video would be awesome. Thank you!!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Does your dog know how to bow on cue?
> 
> If not, one approach would be to try teaching that first, because it's elbows down/butt in the air. Same luring method as everyone else has been describing, if you're doing it with a lure (this one is also usually pretty easy to capture if your dog is playful and familiar with capturing as a concept). *Slice it REALLY THINLY with a clicker and reward for incremental muscle movements in the right direction if you're having difficulty getting the whole behavior in one go*.
> 
> ...


He doesn't know how to bow.

Thank you for the words in bold. I've never tried this, but I've seen it done. May be too advanced for my skill set as a trainer right now, lol, but it's a great idea. Only thing is, this isn't supposed to be a clicker command. I'm using "Yes!" to mark this one. The only command my trainer wants me using the clicker for right now is Place. He has reasons that I don't really understand yet, but I'm trying to follow his program.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I teach it while in motion. I lure the dog around then with a treat in my left hand, I push slightly back and down on the puppies nose. Because you were in motion it cause the puppy to stop in it's tracks and you're guiding the front down making the rear fold down. As they start to get it, I transition to slight pressure going back and down on the shoulders(as I start to fade out the hand). I always teach and practice the downs while moving. If I get a chance later I will make a video doing this with my puppy. I hope this helps.


This is how I start it too.. while the dog is in motion.. I'm also hyping the dog and or pup up with my voice and movement.. I don't use any pressure on the shoulders though..


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

JackandMattie said:


> He doesn't know how to bow.
> 
> Thank you for the words in bold. I've never tried this, but I've seen it done. May be too advanced for my skill set as a trainer right now, lol, but it's a great idea. Only thing is, this isn't supposed to be a clicker command. I'm using "Yes!" to mark this one. The only command my trainer wants me using the clicker for right now is Place. He has reasons that I don't really understand yet, but I'm trying to follow his program.


That's an unusual approach. I wonder what the reasoning is. Generally people are advised to use the clicker for as many things as possible, so that the sound really builds up value as a marker and, eventually, secondary reinforcer. The more you use it, the stronger the effect becomes. Limiting its use would seem to reduce its efficacy.

Anyway, you _can_ thin-slice shaping with a verbal marker instead of a click -- and I've taken that approach with some dogs who were too sound-sensitive to tolerate even muffled clicks, or when I was trying to mark a behavior that I needed both hands to prompt -- but it's slightly more difficult because the sound is less precise. But only slightly.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

I have found with my two girls (limited experience, I know) that teaching the fold back down was easier from a stand, or even walking. In the method I was taught, you have the leash in your left hand, and a treat in your right. With the dog either standing or moving, you lure the dog into a down by moving your right hand palm down towards the floor, with the treat tucked in between your palm and thumb, and in between the dog's front legs. That usually gets them into a bow. Once they are bowing, you just move the treat a bit further towards the dogs chest, and generally, the butt drops, and the dog gets the treat. If they get "stuck" in a bow, just run your left hand along the dogs back, and put a bit of pressure on their hind end, to encourage them going all the way down.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Merciel said:


> That's an unusual approach. I wonder what the reasoning is. Generally people are advised to use the clicker for as many things as possible, so that the sound really builds up value as a marker and, eventually, secondary reinforcer. The more you use it, the stronger the effect becomes. Limiting its use would seem to reduce its efficacy.
> 
> Anyway, you _can_ thin-slice shaping with a verbal marker instead of a click -- and I've taken that approach with some dogs who were too sound-sensitive to tolerate even muffled clicks, or when I was trying to mark a behavior that I needed both hands to prompt -- but it's slightly more difficult because the sound is less precise. But only slightly.


Thanks!

Yeah, he has a definite reason but I don't understand it yet. He kind of explained it to me, but I'm still new at this and don't absorb everything he tells me. The training sessions seem to fly by and he packs a lot of info in there. Anyway, some behaviors we will be marking with Yes and some with the clicker. Someday I'll know why


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> I have found with my two girls (limited experience, I know) that teaching the fold back down was easier from a stand, or even walking. In the method I was taught, you have the leash in your left hand, and a treat in your right. With the dog either standing or moving, you lure the dog into a down by moving your right hand palm down towards the floor, with the treat tucked in between your palm and thumb, and in between the dog's front legs. That usually gets them into a bow. Once they are bowing, you just move the treat a bit further towards the dogs chest, and generally, the butt drops, and the dog gets the treat. If they get "stuck" in a bow, just run your left hand along the dogs back, and put a bit of pressure on their hind end, to encourage them going all the way down.


Thank you. That describes it very clearly. That is what my trainer showed me to do, but Jack wouldn't bow for either of us...but we were running short on time because I had asked too many questions, lol. I figured I could get the dog to do it on my own, but have been unsuccessful. _But_, I haven't been moving with the dog. I'm going to add that tonight!


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## tropicalsun (Jun 7, 2011)

JackandMattie said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yeah, he has a definite reason but I don't understand it yet. He kind of explained it to me, but I'm still new at this and don't absorb everything he tells me. The training sessions seem to fly by and he packs a lot of info in there. Anyway, some behaviors we will be marking with Yes and some with the clicker. Someday I'll know why


You're using your "Yes" marker and then having your dog come towards you for the reward. You'll use your clicker to tell the dog "I like what you did, I'll bring you the treat." So basically, "yes"means you did it right come and get your treat, "click" means you did it right, stay where you are and I'll bring the treat to you." You're laying a communication foundation that will allow you to positively reinforce your dog at a distance, away from you, with the dog coming to you for the reward.

My girl struggled with real sloppy down as well. I defeated it with a wall and basically sitting in front of her with one Leg stretched out so she couldn't twist/roll that direction. Finally got a crisp down, treated her and the light bulb went on for her...it took two weeks to get her to that point. I'd done to many, sit and then downs. I never command down from sitting anymore.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

tropicalsun said:


> You're using your "Yes" marker and then having your dog come towards you for the reward. You'll use your clicker to tell the dog "I like what you did, I'll bring you the treat." So basically, "yes"means you did it right come and get your treat, "click" means you did it right, stay where you are and I'll bring the treat to you." You're laying a communication foundation that will allow you to positively reinforce your dog at a distance, away from you, with the dog coming to you for the reward.
> 
> My girl struggled with real sloppy down as well. I defeated it with a wall and basically sitting in front of her with one Leg stretched out so she couldn't twist/roll that direction. Finally got a crisp down, treated her and the light bulb went on for her...it took two weeks to get her to that point. I'd done to many, sit and then downs. I never command down from sitting anymore.


Oh yeah, he did explain it to me again and I finally understood the reasoning...didn't think to come back here and post though. Thank you for clarifying!

Actually, Jack finally went down elbows first just this week! I've been really lax about formal training sessions the past few weeks, and was actually just goofing around with the dogs in the house. I was sitting in a chair snacking on some cheese, they wanted a bite, so I asked Lillian for a sit and Jack for a down. I think maybe it was because he was in my face and I was sitting down, and Lillian was in his space as well, but when I leaned over and lured back between his front paws his elbows dropped first. Crazy! I did it over and over and then again the next day, and he went elbows first every time. Now we just need to get the move to work outside while we're in session


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Sorry, what are you trying to teach? The down?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's a bow. We were showed how to do this during the lst part of our obedience class.

Some dogs catch on to this quicker than others. Cruz got it fairly quick but I just didn't see any benefit from it when we could be working on other things he was having a harder time doing consistantly.

We still did it as it was required though, so I understand.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Why would you expect a "low drive rescue" to display flashy obedience?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Why would you expect a "low drive rescue" to display flashy obedience?


 
Why do you always feel the need to discourage people from training? Let people learn how train with the dogs they have. Do you have any idea how much my byb special taught me? She was a pain! By the time I was done with her (which was titled) I had learned a ton. Then when I got my next dog that was actually bred to work, he felt like the easiest dog in the world. So let people learn and make there mistakes.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'm all for people training away to their heart's content. But they have to be realistic about their expectations. The information the OP provided was that the dog was low drive. You shouldn't expect too much in the way of accurate, flashy obedience with a low drive dog. It is kind of like people thinking just because they have a GSD, the dog is Rin Tin Tin. As a matter of fact, one of our training group's sayings was "Everyone wants Rin Tin Tin, but nobody wants to train him."


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Another thought is that this owner should focus on reliable obedience rather than accurate, flashy obedience. For example, can you get to the point of downing your dog from a distance and can you down you dog and walk away 100 yards without the dog breaking the down. It doesn't matter if the dog drops like a rock or if the down is straight. Also, a reliable recall will be more important than a fast, straight recall straight to your crotch. The dog is not competing and doesn't have the drive for such behavior. I would focus on reliability and adding distance and distractions over time.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I'm all for people training away to their heart's content. But they have to be realistic about their expectations. The information the OP provided was that the dog was low drive. You shouldn't expect too much in the way of accurate, flashy obedience with a low drive dog. It is kind of like people thinking just because they have a GSD, the dog is Rin Tin Tin. As a matter of fact, one of our training group's sayings was "Everyone wants Rin Tin Tin, but nobody wants to train him."


When this dog hits his ceiling, I will consider my expectations met. Until then, I don't see any sense in lowering my goals. And I don't see anything unrealistic about expecting as much as I can get out of him, as long as when he tops out I accept that.

Also, as mycobraracr described, this is a learning experience for me. I have always been content with basic OB in my rescues...but I have a long term goal and that includes a working pup. I'm not going into that blind, though, so I'm taking the dog I am currently committed to and going to a professional trainer to learn the techniques and positions I'll need for that pup. Jack is holding up just fine under the pressure 

I know this isn't my competition dog, but when I make that investment, I will be ready to hit the ground running, thanks to Jack.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Another thought is that this owner should focus on reliable obedience rather than accurate, flashy obedience. For example, can you get to the point of downing your dog from a distance and can you down you dog and walk away 100 yards without the dog breaking the down. It doesn't matter if the dog drops like a rock or if the down is straight. Also, a reliable recall will be more important than a fast, straight recall straight to your crotch. The dog is not competing and doesn't have the drive for such behavior. I would focus on reliability and adding distance and distractions over time.


We are working on everything you mention. Well, not the down and walk away _yet_ (because I wanted those elbows down first, lol!), but sitting while I walk away, and staying in place while I walk away. We aren't at 100 yards, but we'll get there in time.

Actually, in the almost two years I've had this dog now, he has only "failed" a recall one time...and that was when the neighbors' dogs started fighting at the edge of our lawn, Jack jumped in, and I had to call his name three times to get him back to me. Still, that incident prompted me to sign up with the trainer, wanting to focus on exactly what you mention, reliability in the face of distractions. 

Good news is, what we're doing has been working. Jack will go through his whole routine with me in front of the house (off lead, unfenced), all the while our neighbor's Papillon is running circles around us yapping her little head off, trying to get us to stop and play. Your advice is good, but don't worry, my trainer has us covered


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Certainly sounds like you are putting in the effort and getting results. Regarding getting a "working pup" in the future, are you planning on doing competition obedience and has your trainer taught you anything about training a dog in drive with a toy? Food is great for training, especially young pups. But if in the future, you get a high drive pup and want to train competively and get the most drive out of the dog, you will have to add to your repetoire, playing "the game" with a tug, which is a whole new set of skills to master.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Why do you always feel the need to discourage people from training? Let people learn how train with the dogs they have. Do you have any idea how much my byb special taught me? She was a pain! By the time I was done with her (which was titled) I had learned a ton. Then when I got my next dog that was actually bred to work, he felt like the easiest dog in the world. So let people learn and make there mistakes.


THANK YOU. Seriously, what even was that post.

You can compete just fine in a bunch of sports with a "low drive" pound puppy special. Sure, be realistic in your expectations, and choose the things they can do... but don't be afraid to expect a lot, either. If you want snappy and accurate obedience, go for it! You might be surprised at what you can get. Even with a "low drive rescue." Even with a non-traditional breed like a Pug or a French Bulldog or a Border Terrier. If you motivate and train your dog properly and have a strong relationship and teach the dog that obedience is FUN!!, you can get a _lot_.

You learn a ton from these dogs, and you can have a lot of fun, too.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

This isn't even an obedience demo -- this is just a clip we made for a basic Canine Life & Social Skills class -- but here's my low-drive, not-real-bright Akita mix Crookytail doing a quick sequence. I'm deliberately picking one of his clips because Crooky's not even my _competition_ pound puppy. He is a pet dog couch potato.






The point of this clip was to show a pet dog who waits to be leashed up, waits politely at an open door instead of bolting through, and goes forward with the handler on cue. That's it. _Not_ an obedience demo, hence why I'm not lined up properly for a good Front after the recall down the stairs.

But Crookytail is squared perfectly on the Front from recall (look at how he's lined up on the tile grid on the floor) and his Sit in Heel is pretty good, and his response times are not bad for a dog his size.

He's not a Malinois and he'll never move like one, but again: this is a pound-puppy pet dog who was never seriously trained for competition of ANY kind and he's still pretty fast and he's still pretty accurate and if you want that kind of performance, you can get it on a "low drive rescue."

graaa

rant over


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

THANK YOU *Merciel*! You and your pups have been instrumental in inspiring me. Same goes for *mycobraracr* and his girlfriend's enthusiasm, and I meant to say another personal THANK YOU to them... Seeing *mycobraracr's *first posts of Recon coming out of his crate and going straight on the tug at eight weeks really got my puppy cravings started, lol!

I just love watching everyone's success here, with _all_ the _different_ types of dogs! Y'all have made a difference in the lives of my rescue dogs, big time. I thought I was providing enough, but since I've started working with Jack, his world has really opened up. Never underestimate!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Merciel,
I'll shed some light on "what even was that post" with the words of some trainers with credentials much higher than mine.
"We only have the right to work those dogs who have some natural inclination for the training. We do not have the right to try to train a dog beyond his capabilities. The dog has the right to enjoy his work. We should not continue training when the dog has no joy in his work. With some dogs, it is only right to stop at basic obedience and not attempt to make them competition dogs."

I agree with that statement. I was referring to competition obedience so I don't know what bunch of sports you can compete with just fine with a low drive pound puppy. I never commented that the OP shouldn't train his dog, but inferred that the expectations might be unrealistic. 
Working dogs have high drives. The GSD is supposed to be a working dog. Unfortunately, that goal has been traded for the breed becoming a popular pet breed in too many instances.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> We're on some serious NILIF. Three fails, and he goes back in the crate.


Maybe it is the nilif that is De-motivating the dog. I wouldn't bother with nilif for a low drive dog if you want the drive to increase. 

As Bart Bellon says, 'train the hooligan'. Nilif is like, boring.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> "We only have the right to work those dogs who have some natural inclination for the training. We do not have the right to try to train a dog beyond his capabilities. The dog has the right to enjoy his work. We should not continue training when the dog has no joy in his work. With some dogs, it is only right to stop at basic obedience and not attempt to make them competition dogs."
> 
> I agree with that statement. I was referring to competition obedience so I don't know what bunch of sports you can compete with just fine with a low drive pound puppy.


Do you actually _do_ competition obedience? Because if you did, you'd see that there's a wide variety of breeds (and, yes, mutts too!) active in the sport, and some of them do quite nicely.

Are they going to OTCH? No, probably not, but that's true of just about anybody. But can they _compete_? Sure. And do you know who gets the farthest with those dogs? The determined newbies who don't "know" (or refuse to believe) that they "can't" do whatever with their dogs. They aim for the sky because nobody has told them that it's quote-unquote _realistic_ to stay in the mud. It is WAY more dependent on the handler than the dog.

I don't know who the quote is from, or what the full context of it is. But I firmly believe -- because I've seen it and done it many, many times -- that if you are training motivationally, with sensitivity and respect and _fun_ for your dog, then there is no dog that cannot have joy in the work.

The competition ring is a different thing, and that is not suitable for every dog (although I'm doing pretty okay with just about the worst possible dog for it, so there's an example of the power of boneheaded stupid stubbornness). But saying that people can't expect their rescue dogs to show joy and accuracy in obedience work is flat-out absurd. We're not talking about protection work or scaling palisades. A basic fold-backwards Down? You can get that, and you can get a nice one, and there is absolutely no reason to tell someone to expect otherwise.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

rut roh. 

BTW as for fast correct OB of any kind seems to me it's a matter of finding what makes the dog tick, followed by consistency and timing of the owner in training. My Smitty dog was the most independent rescue possibly mix I have ever run across. His OB wasn't just slow it was 'send me a memo I'll think about it'.

Now having found the keys to motivate him, his unique set of drives/motivators, when he's on he's got some pretty fast correct OB. The only thing that held him back was me and my lack of knowledge.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Maybe it is the nilif that is De-motivating the dog. I wouldn't bother with nilif for a low drive dog if you want the drive to increase.
> 
> As Bart Bellon says, 'train the hooligan'. Nilif is like, boring.


Oh, it worked wonders. I should clarify...the "low drive" analysis was from our first to eval with the trainer, and we've modified that some.

Jack's motivation has definitely _increased_ with NILIF. I am not as serious about it now as I was when we started training... he gets to play for free occasionally, and he gets petted for free an awful lot. He does not get to play when he drops the ball at my feet repeatedly, it gets put out of sight... nor does he get petted when he pushes the Weimaraner out from in front of me, he gets to go lie down and come try again later, etc.

See, here's where my thinking was before I started training: I have a young, fearful rescue that I had to carry out of the humane society's office because he was so shut down. He was malnourished, and I struggled to motivate him to eat, trying everything from canned food to silk balls, etc., and finally landing on prey model raw. I had him for months before I could train him to sit, because he was so shy and literally never sat. Hard to believe, but he never sat, and I was unwillingly to physically manipulate my "fearful" dog. He always either was pacing or lying down. BUT...that thinking was lingering in my mind from when I had adopted him _over a year_ earlier.

The reality _was_ that, in the meantime, he had grown MUCH more secure, and I had actually created a dog with a sense of entitlement. He didn't have to do a darn thing basically, and he got the best of everything in the house because my senior wouldn't battle him, my weim wouldn't battle him, and I, like a jerk, was still coddling him.

It was tough for me to get my head around at first. Especially when my trainer said get rid of all the toys. Keep one or two, and they only come out when you're playing. I was like, no waaay. Do you have any idea how many hundreds of dollars worth of dogs toys are lying around my house?!? Jolly Balls, Chuckits, Nina Ottensen puzzles, Kongs, Kong Wubbas, stuffies, flirt pole, kiddie pool, you name it. I was like, I am NOT throwing those all away, or even donating them.

Well, finally I gave in. Packed up the toys. Stopped handing Jack a whole chicken for his dinner to eat at his leisure. And I put the dog to task.

The difference has been NIGHT and DAY.

Anyway, since I don't have any personal experience with a high drive dog, I can't really evaluate on my own where Jack falls on the scale...but the trainer and I have figured out it isn't as low as we originally thought. A lot like Laurie's recent thread pointed out... I just needed to learn how to motivate my dog. I always knew he wanted to please me, I just didn't know how _much_ he wanted it.

Anyway, we still have a long way to go, but it's a pretty cool ride, so far.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> rut roh.
> 
> BTW as for fast correct OB of any kind seems to me it's a matter of finding what makes the dog tick, followed by consistency and timing of the owner in training. My Smitty dog was the most independent rescue possibly mix I have ever run across. His OB wasn't just slow it was 'send me a memo I'll think about it'.
> 
> *Now having found the keys to motivate him, his unique set of drives/motivators, when he's on he's got some pretty fast correct OB. The only thing that held him back was me and my lack of knowledge*.


THIS is what I just spent half an hour typing up trying to explain, lol!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like you've been doing a great job!

I think with the rescues sometimes it's harder, especially if you are not an experienced trainer.



JackandMattie said:


> THIS is what I just spent half an hour typing up trying to explain, lol!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Merciel said:


> . . . fold-backwards Down. . .


It has a name?!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sounds like you've been doing a great job!
> 
> I think with the rescues sometimes it's harder, especially if you are not an experienced trainer.


Thanks! (Admittedly, I should not have bolded the part about achieving precision, we're not there yet)

Well, I have slacked off with the summer heat (over 100 degrees here lately)... We start our sessions with the trainer again on Sept 20th, so I'm refreshing us now.

And some days I feel like we've made great progress....

And some days I still feel dumber than a box of rocks....

And other days I'm convinced it's Jack who is dumber than a box of rocks...

BUT some days we're BOTH rock stars, lol! Last night he held a sit for about ten yards, then went to his place and held that for another ten yards, then come, spin, twirl, spin, spin, spin...and _then_ "Yes!" and a treat


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Certainly sounds like you are putting in the effort and getting results. Regarding getting a "working pup" in the future, are you planning on doing competition obedience and has your trainer taught you anything about training a dog in drive with a toy? Food is great for training, especially young pups. But if in the future, you get a high drive pup and want to train competively and get the most drive out of the dog, you will have to add to your repetoire, playing "the game" with a tug, which is a whole new set of skills to master.


Thank you, Chip. No, but that is a concept I have picked up on a little around here, and when the time comes, I will be prepared 

Honestly, it will be several years from now. Recently lost my senior GSD, but I still have my ~9-yo Weimaraner and 3-yo GSD at home, and I think I'm going to keep it to those two until nature takes it's course.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah I feel like that too....

I watch my trainer, he's a natural, so quick and consistent with his timing. He's naturally athletic and has that hand/eye/body coordination and I feel like a lump of jello sometimes.

I'm good at motivating but not at making it clear for my dogs.

Because I'm too slow my timing is off and makes things way harder for my dogs, then I get frustrated, NOT with them though, it's mostly me. 






JackandMattie said:


> Thanks! (Admittedly, I should not have bolded the part about achieving precision, we're not there yet)
> 
> Well, I have slacked off with the summer heat (over 100 degrees here lately)... We start our sessions with the trainer again on Sept 20th, so I'm refreshing us now.
> 
> ...


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah I feel like that too....
> 
> I watch my trainer, he's a natural, so quick and consistent with his timing. He's naturally athletic and has that hand/eye/body coordination and I feel like a lump of jello sometimes.
> 
> ...


Same here... I totally Know its all me. Even on those days I think it's the dog, I still know its me. I try to be super careful not to let him see any frustration on my part. He is trying, bless his heart. 

It's the timing thing! That's a super tough thing to master. But for me, it's for the opposite reason. I move quickly, my body language is super animated, and so my signals to Jack are all over the map. My trainer is soo patient. Idk how many times he has reminded me quietly from the sidelines, "Arms at your sides, stand still." 

And the one afternoon he couldn't help it but chuckled out loud at me, because when I moved backward, I was jogging on my tippy toes, lol! I was like "What?!? You said move backward quickly and Fun!" Doh 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah sometimes my trainer laughs too...and other times he's kind of scolded me.

The problem is, as I tell him, I'm not ignoring him, it's like the signals get crossed from my brain to what ever my body is supposed to be doing. 

Drives me crazy and he is mostly patient because he knows I'm trying...trying....

Sometimes I think I'll just get a retired basset hound from an AKC show kennel I know and that will be my 'retirement' dog. 

Nice to share stories with you. I just wish I could be a better trainer.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I'm all for people training away to their heart's content. But they have to be realistic about their expectations. The information the OP provided was that the dog was low drive. You shouldn't expect too much in the way of accurate, flashy obedience with a low drive dog. It is kind of like people thinking just because they have a GSD, the dog is Rin Tin Tin. As a matter of fact, one of our training group's sayings was "Everyone wants Rin Tin Tin, but nobody wants to train him."


You know something? Some of us have to work with what we've got, not with what we want. 

Will Ilka ever be the first All American OTCH? Oh, heck no, she's too reactive to compete in obedience any more. But, I had a lot of fun showing her, and she retired from the ring with a BN, RE, and two legs of a CD. My new goal for her is for her to be the first ever All American Champion Tracker. Will we make it? Who knows? But we're going to have fun trying. 

New obedience competition dog will be low drive Leo. I'm not planning on setting the obedience world on fire with her. I'm planning on taking her as far as she can go. And have fun doing it. 




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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> . . .
> 
> New obedience competition dog will be low drive Leo. I'm not planning on setting the obedience world on fire with her. I'm planning on taking her as far as she can go. And have fun doing it.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I LOVE This!!



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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Woah, I did not know there had never been a muttly OTCH.

Man, now I'm all tempted to get one of those Golden/Lab service dogs or GSD/Mal police dogs and cheat my way into a record.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Woah, I did not know there had never been a muttly OTCH.
> 
> Man, now I'm all tempted to get one of those Golden/Lab service dogs or GSD/Mal police dogs and cheat my way into a record.


Give 'em a chance. All American (mixed breed or non-FSS rare breed) dogs have only been competing in AKC events since April of 2010. As of August 21st of this year, there are 9 All American UDs, and 27 All American RAEs.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, I didn't realize it was that recent, somehow I'd gotten it into my head that the Canine Partners thing was like 2006 or 2007.

Pfft, well, no point shooting for that one then.

Back to Plan A!


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