# When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, seems we morphed the Full Bite topic into something else. So,I will take where it ended and start a new topic.

When and how do you introduce pressure and threats with the stick? What do you want to see in the dog before you move forward with this type of work?


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

We start using the stick very early from puppy on word here is a example how it might start http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLJqL6NUaJM each pup is different depends on the pup Stephan's work in the video is a bit over the top. 
We've had many Rottweiler pups title through our club and they need allot of stick and threat desensitizing.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

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> Quote:We've had many Rottweiler pups title through our club and they need allot of stick and threat desensitizing.


So, you are of the belief that the dogs should be desensitized to the stick or are you just referring to Rotts?


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

I'm hoping some more discussion comes up in this thread - great topic to be exchanging thoughts and rationale on.

I'm under the understanding that the stick is usually introduced at an early age for the purpose of "desensitizing" (eg Ive seen clatter sticks used and/or the stick being lightly 'stroked' on young pups starting in rag work) but I guess something I've always wondered is if doing so then results in a dog not perceiving the stick as an actual threat? So is this productive or counter-productive in regards to why the stick is then used, for example, in trial (eg as a "real" threat to test the dog's courage?). For training purposes and as a "sport", I can see it as beneficial to desensitize but at the end of the day, why is the stick even therefore used in trial - eg what is the "true" purpose of the stick & stick hits then?

Hmmm.....


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## jlphillips1 (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

I train for SDA not Schutzund, but we start with very young puppies using our hand to pat them on the head and heavier pats on their side. As the pup progresses we start raising our hand and lightly striking the pup or young dog. We progressivley add the stick and use it gently at first and then work up to more aggressive threats and hits. The level of aggression must be adjusted to different dogs and different breeds.

SDA purpose is not to desensitize to the stick, but to get the dog hold the bite even when it is being attacked. If you want your dog to stand up to a real world attacker, then you must train your dog to hold the grip no matter what happens.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

I want my dogs to see the stick and the pressure from the helper and fight back. They must be taught what to do when the stick and the pressure are presented. 

The desensitizing teaches the dogs to just ignore the stick. That is probably why, IMO, many dogs just hang on and go along for a ride during the drives. It also can be used to help dogs with stick problems tolerate the stick. 

Several years ago there was a dog that won an event that people were commenting on as being a very strong dog. During the drives this dog would man handle the helper and he was extremely difficult to drive. The dog was from this area. This dog was not strong and actually had a stick issue. The dog was taught to pull behind the helper, get himself out of the pocket making it hard for the helper to pressure him and to stick hit him. His grips often slipped too, but this was not always seen. He was taught to tolerate what he didn't like.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

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Along with the stick hits is the person wielding the stick. I think that is a fact that people who think they are desensitizing the dog maybe are not considering. It will not just be the training helper when the dog is in a trial.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

Nicole, I have the same question as you. Do you want to desensitize a dog to the stick, or do you want the stick (and the pressure and presence of the helper) to really show you the true nature of your dog? I guess I don't really see the purpose in using sticks and doing little drives with a tiny little puppy. Why not introduce the stick and the pressure when the dog is mature enough so that he fights back rather than just doesn't care?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't think you can "really" desensitize a dog. You might be able to dull the dog a bit in training but new situations and different helpers can still create insecurity if the training has only been focused on getting the dog to ignore the pressure vs fight back against it. Also, the dog has to be at a certain point in training and maturity before that side of the dog can be worked with, so, introducing a stick to a puppy is not doing anything beneficial IMO.

I guess some people see a weakness in their dogs and therefore want to try to dull the dog to the threat. However, the only way you can somewhat hide a dog's insecurity is by bringing the drive way up. High drive can hide a lot but you may pay for that approach elsewhere in the training. There are numerous reasons, (for me anyway), to not try to desensitize a dog to the stick. The video with that pup,( besides that there is something that strikes me odd about that puppy), I would never do. I watch people training with the clatter sticks, ( especially with Malinois) , and I see the dogs hitting back/countering over and over on the sleeve or bite suit whatever. So, those dogs are not desensitized to it, they are reacting. I have never asked anyone what they think they are doing with those things but if they think that is desensitization, THEY must be desensitized.









The main thing for me is, I want to bring out the side of my dog that fights the helper. If you are breeding for dogs with that kind of character, why would you train in a way that doesn't display it? Takes the fun right out of training, ( and breeding), if you ask me. Also, a dog who hits back/ counters/fights feels more in control of the fight and will be more capable of outing and guarding cleanly. That I have seen over and over. The dog must feel like he can control the pressure from the helper by countering what he does. When I see a dog who just hangs there and endures the pressure I think of a dog who has been overpowered and taught to be helpless.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> > Quote:We've had many Rottweiler pups title through our club and they need allot of stick and threat desensitizing.
> ...


Desensitized I wouldn't suggest taking any dog on to the field having never desensitized to the stick if its a good dog we don't dwell on it, my dog for example the stick brings out aggression and fight if he sees the stick every time he could possibly get to desensitized and think whats the big deal.
Depends on the dog how it's used it would be used much differently on crapper's. 
I seen several dogs at the Nationals that looked "meh"
until the pressure was applied and only then did you get to see some of the real dog.
And this sort of dog would be a good topic for another discussion.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

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Is this desensitization training? Is the pup learning not to be bothered by all sorts of different things while gripping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aO0ayIefBg


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Quote:I don't think you can "really" desensitize a dog. You might be able to dull the dog


Ah - now THAT is a much better analogy I think!!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Originally Posted By: SambaIs this desensitization training? Is the pup learning not to be bothered by all sorts of different things while gripping?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aO0ayIefBg


Yes


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

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And I guess a crapper would be a dog that does not do schutzhund...nice. Sorry I get hung up on semantics


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

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I have a question for those who do desensitization training with puppies. Is the point to make them "not afraid" of the stick or is it reinforce that they are not supposed to let go of their grip no matter what?



> Originally Posted By: kingstonAnd I guess a crapper would be a dog that does not do schutzhund...nice. Sorry I get hung up on semantics


kingston, I think you misunderstood Joker. (Joker, correct me if I am wrong) He never mentioned dogs that don't do schutzhund. With the term "crapper" he was referring to a schutzhund dog that does not have stong nerve and would normally be affected by stick hits. A person might train that dog differently.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

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This is a schutzhund forum right? Some people just post before they realize what forum their in. IMO. A "crapper" can mean many things in many venues, however I believe a "crapper" in SchH is a dog that lacks the temperament and nerve necessary to do ScH. It does not mean a bad dog. My female was a "crapper" at herding and lacked enthusiasm for most OB competitions, we did other things instead.
My sense is that stick and pressure from the decoy and desensitizing to stick and are parallel concepts. A dog must hold its grip. Period.
Gifted, experienced is the trainer and helper who can gauge the right amount and leave the youngster hungry for more. Finding that "just right challenge" for a pup. I think some densensitizing in a way IS introducing stress that is very short and allows the pup to recover. I can't do algebra if I still can't add numbers is my analogy. As for a time table? I don't know. My 14 week old Pele has gotten tapped by stick and introduced to physical pressure on a very small scale. The idea being , I hope in his perspective : "Hmm I may get wrangled, touched, etc by stuff but I am still in this and holding on and WIN the fight". I am not sure if he has the capability to know that play is fighting at this age. I also believe that early desensitization builds "muscle memory" for the grip and puppy. 

As for picking up a pup as in the Staatsmacht video seems ludricrous for two reasons 1. Potential for learned helplessness like Anne referred to and 2) the cartilage and bones of the neck are not meant for that at that age and the risk of injury too great.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

I understood what he was saying and I understand what forum I am posting in


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

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Poor crapper terminology just doesn't sound too PC! I have had a number of "crappers" lacking sufficient courage and nerve strength. Hey, we love our crappers here and there is nothing wrong with loving and enjoying them! But we sure don't breed them! Not so much to do with schutzhund as with genetic attitributes and character. It just happens that schutzhund work can reveal a lot about the dogs so the people in it begin to recognize what is desirable in a breedworthy dog and what is not. Most of the people who I know who also breed, don't know or know and don't care what is correct. They are the true "crappers" maybe.

I am really thinking about this desensitization thing and thinking of the possible ways that this could backfire. Do dogs really benefit before they can and have learned to fight? What of a dog that requires so much desensitization...do I want to even work with it then? Does the stick start "participating" in the picture before it is part of the tableau of threat? If we are always presenting something of a picture of presence and threat appropriately as the pup matures, what is the progression of stick work within that?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

I have a crapper too, she'd probably pee if someone tried to drive her with a stick (not even the actual hits) but I still love her, train her, and title her in just about everything BUT SchH!

Anyway, thanks to the others for the info. This is all new to me.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't think I have ever tried to desensitize a puppy. Sure, I played with them and patted them while I played tug, dropped stuff and dragged them over one or two strange objects but that was about it. If you do something one time and see no reaction, why would you keep doing it? That's like firing the gun every training session because one gets fired in the trial. The video of the pup being drug all over the pipes etc is just silly if you ask me. 

They either have the nerves or they don't and there is not lots you can do about the later. Speaking of continuing to push it, I have watched a few people get absolutely obsessed with fixing a nerve issue. I remember one woman who had a Laekenois who had a problem with gun fire. Her answer was to sit in her house watching TV and firing a starter pistol at the same time. What was a minor problem became a rather significant one by the time she was done with that nonsense. Sometimes, if you dog has an issue with something, you should just wait a little bit for more age and the problem goes away but there is also a point where you simply must accept the reality of the situation and throw in the towel.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

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Had one fellow at a club whose young female Shepherd was a bit iffy with gunfire...soooooo, he took her front and center to the local fireworks display. She wasn't "iffy" any more! So much for flooding. I think some of this stick presentation over and over is along the line of flooding. 

But as Anne mentioned, there is a helper somewhere with the power and presence to make the picture look like a threat and a response of strength and fight is going to be very handy for the dog. They aren't going to be able to take a Schultz approach and say " I see nuthink".


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> Speaking of continuing to push it, I have watched a few people get absolutely obsessed with fixing a nerve issue. I remember one woman who had a Laekenois who had a problem with gun fire. Her answer was to sit in her house watching TV and firing a starter pistol at the same time. What was a minor problem became a rather significant one by the time she was done with that nonsense.


In similar fashion, I knew a clicker trained dog with a gun problem. The owner used the starter pistol as the reward click for the dog for a month or so. It actually worked. Or did the dog just get over the startle response it had to begin with?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: SchHGSD
> In similar fashion, I knew a clicker trained dog with a gun problem. The owner used the starter pistol as the reward click for the dog for a month or so. It actually worked. Or did the dog just get over the startle response it had to begin with?


Well...that brings a whole new meaning to the term "charging the clicker".








Never occurred to me that meant using gun powder.
I am trying to picture how someone would do that, especially since the dog must have startled when the gun went off.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*

The reward the clicker sound (gun) brought was tugging on the dogs soft frisbee. So, prey drive overcame the startle aspect of the gun, until it was actually an exciting sound for the dog to hear.

It was not, as you may have already guessed, a GSD.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay, that is some counter conditioning and creating positive association with the gunfire. If the dog startles you might have to increase distance from the gun fire at first to lessen the undesirable response. Then gradually work up to the proximity needed. I think it can work especially if the fear reaction is not profound. Can you counter condition and positively associate stick hits?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have witnessed people turning the gun shot into a starter pistol. Meaning, the dog is on a long down and the gun is fired before the dog is trained enough. The dog gets up, maybe because he thinks it is the whip or whatever and then the handler runs at him yelling down. This continues to happen until the dog just gets up and flees everytime he hears that gun...not because he fears the noise but because he fears his own handler.

I might be willing to agree that could "work"to hide a bit of a weakness but I don't think really gun shy dogs can be cured that way. You can control it to a degree but like the other situation with the stick, it will show up elsewhere or in certain situations.
This also goes back to what a said earlier where you raise the drive higher to try to hide the nerves. Works ok as long as the drive is where you need it to be but since these are animals and are affected by a number of other factors, you could see it pop up. I would not be willing to say these methods "solve" the problem.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

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I think I would agree... the weakness is always there and the behavior always "revealable" in the right circumstance.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Originally Posted By: kingstonAnd I guess a crapper would be a dog that does not do schutzhund...nice. Sorry I get hung up on semantics


What????


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: When & How to Introduce the Stick and Pressure*



> Originally Posted By: RuthieI have a question for those who do desensitization training with puppies. Is the point to make them "not afraid" of the stick or is it reinforce that they are not supposed to let go of their grip no matter what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the gist of it thanks.
I haven't a clue about the fancy sorts of dogs some call germanshepherds. kingston if these are the ones you are referring to I know about as much about them as I do poodles. Guess I have heard most wont or can't even chase a stick.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

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A german shepherd is a german shepherd...Poodles are smart you shouldn't underestimate them


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

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Poodles can be tough too


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

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for example .... when a dog is a particular breed in name only...


A Jack Russell is not a Jack Russell without certain characteristics though it might be genetically a Jack by pedigree. My friend breeds Jacks and they don't all get recognized by the breed club if they fall out of standard.

http://www.therealjackrussell.com/jrtca/realjack.php

A lot of people like to alter the Jack through breeding selection and sometimes they end up not even calling it a Jack eventually. 

I think the same is probably true for perhaps the finest, or one of the finest, working dog on the planet.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

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As someone said earlier this is a schutzhund form...and I'll be leaving now so you can get back on topic


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

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Thank you.


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