# Guarding



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

A couple of weeks ago, I had a conversation with a USA Judge about guarding and what he said, the judges are now going to be looking for. I hope I understood him correctly only because I don't want to quote anyone incorrectly. That is my personal pet peeve. Anyway, what I understood him to be saying is that judges will now, ( even though some have been looking for it all along), be looking for more intense barking in the blind and also after the outs. He basically said that even if your dog does everything else right, (like biting well, being clean, outting quickly etc), but the guarding part is lacking, it is possible for you to walk off the field with only 80 points. 

So, for the sake of conversation...... What is your opinion of what I am claiming this judge said? Do you believe that so much emphasis should be placed on this aspect of protection? What are the negatives or positives in your opinion?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I have heard this as well, and the trial I watched last weekend where Gottfried Dildei judged I would say that there was an emphasis on guarding behavior in the critiques. 

I am interested in what it will mean for those dogs that are taught to silent guard after the out.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO we need to look at the whole picture and not just one aspect. I think a dog that is correct overall but is lacking power in the guarding should not receive a 'V' score, but they should not be receiving just a passing score. Judging totally on points and ignoring the dogs is easier, I guess, but does a huge injustice to the breed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I HATE the silent guard, but I have seen a few where the dog is VERY intense. This I would not fault if I were a judge.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Schutzhund protection is comprised of three things: Guarding, gripping, and obedience. Guarding is just as important as gripping, and, I think, has been somewhat overlooked in trials. The guarding really is the part that allows the dog to show aggression. What I like to see is a dog who can guard with a lot of aggression and fight then have a full, hard and calm grip. To me this demonstrates balance in the dog and in the training. 

Also, I am a big fan of the silent guard, but it must be a GUARD and NOT just a silent sit.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You didn't answer Anne's question.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Sorry Lisa, you are correct I did not really answer her question. 

I do think that it is important to look at the whole picture and not just any one aspect. Having said that I do not think that enough attention has been paid to the guarding, the focus has been largely on grips. I think that they need to be viewed together to make the score. It is not so hard to make good grips and adequate guarding, likewise it is not hard to make powerful guarding and so-so grips. I think it is important for a dog to be balanced and thus able to make powerful guarding AND good grips. 
I don't know about walking away with 80 points but I think that a dog who is correct, has good grips and poor guarding should be viewed the same as a dog who is correct, has very powerful guards but poor grips. I do not think that the judge should show favor to grips over guarding. 
I am not sure that I am expressing this clearly. Let me know if it does not make sence, and I can try to explain better what I mean.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, I believe you are saying what I am. We need to look at the whole performance and not just one aspect of the performance.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

My personal opinion is that guarding should be that important, that a dog can only barely get good if he guards weakly, is correct. 

However, I can see where they are going to have a whole lot of trouble making that effective when the rules clearly state that the silent guard is to be treated equally with the active guard after all the outs as far as the points go.

Plus the next two judges that can agree on what intense is will be the first. Some favor a fast barking whatever drive it represents, some will take a slow strong bark, some feel that jumping is not as intense no matter the character of the dog. Trying to get any consistency here is just going to be another nightmare. I'm getting a little tired of hoping my dog is trained to show what _this particular judge_ is looking for in order to get a better than passing score.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

To answer the question, yes I feel this is a very important aspect that needs to be evaluated as strongly as any other. I was just at a trial last weekend and the SV judge Walter Reinhold made it very clear that strong guarding was what he wanted to see. This combined with Lance's article in the latest USA magazine and the comments and scoring at the Worlds is letting people know that things have become out of wack in the dogs. The dogs need to be more balanced in prey and aggression. My hope is that they go back more to the old style of judging the dogs. The less powerfull, less aggressive dog that has full grips and is correct can not V in protection. 

The silent guard has been mentioned. I believe that most judges can see the difference in a strong silent gaurding dog and a sit and wait dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I've heard it too even in this corner of the world where we are 10 years behind anything, so it is a lot to say.

The explication I was given, and I agree, is that a dog can't lie with the barking. How the dog barks really tells how the dog feels. It is obvious not only to the judge but also to the public and even to the people seeing the video in YouTube years later.

A strong silent guarding dog may be obvious to the judge, but a "just guarding" may look the same than a "give me my sleeve-toy" or even to a "if I loose eye contact with this guy I'll be zapped with the e-collar".


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hey, which person were you at the trial? 

Should a correct dog, that doesn't have the strongest guarding, though, receive only 80 pts? This is what we feel is crazy. No V's, but 80 pts? That is just passing.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Depends on what you mean by "not the strongest guarding". I can see 2 points coming off easily at each out if the dog just sat there especially if he looks away, that would be 10 point there, add in the blind work and you would be down in the lower 80's. 

Think of it this way a dog with weak guarding isn't excellent for sure and he really isn't very good either, so that pretty much tells us how many points have to go away because now he is either barely good or simply sufficient.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Hopefully, the gripping and fight will ALWAYS be the weight of the points. 

Guarding can be largely trained and may not be an accurate test of who that dog is. If guarding gets heavier weight in terms of points I think its watering down the test that schutzhund is supposed to be. I feel disheartened by what this judge stated. [heck], my beloved Sita - american specialty showlines had a terrific deep bark and would bark on command. She was not a performance dog - afraid of birds chirping and frightened most of her short life. Her obedience was not so bad either. 
I do think I good guard it is clear that he is barking with a every cell of his being - but don't tip the the assessment as an EQUAL BALANCE of fight/grip =obedience = guarding


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Of all the individual components that comprise the routine, I actually think the guarding, particularly an *active* guard, is the most revealing part when it comes to seeing who the dog is. It is much easier to train the obedience and a good grip (and cover up weakness there) than it is to fake strong, powerful guarding that really comes from the dog's heart.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthHey, which person were you at the trial?
> 
> Should a correct dog, that doesn't have the strongest guarding, though, receive only 80 pts? This is what we feel is crazy. No V's, but 80 pts? That is just passing.


It's 10 points above passing. Plenty of leeway there to still achieve the title. Though I know what you mean since it's not what would be considered a "real" pass that allows for progression of titles.

80 does seem like an extreme deduction, but at the same time what other point range would be appropriate for a dog with weak guarding? I think we all agree on no Vs, but what about a 90? To me that is still too high for weak guarding. 85? Maybe. 

It also depends on what is defined as weak guarding. Different people, and certainly different judges, will have different opinions on that. I don't think I could say whether an 80 was appropriate or not without seeing what the definition of weak guarding was in that particular case.

I will say I'd rather see a dog with strong guarding and some hiccups in the secondary outscore the dog with perfect obedience but weak guarding.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I really don't know but the Rottweiler in our club ( 2 time National SchH Champ handler) states that in general barking and guarding is not a natural thing for a Rott. Some dogs it has to be a trained behavior. I know its GSD forum, but just saying.
My dog, Nandi has a less than convincing bark and hold, but he does very well on the re-attack and stick hits and grips very well. His grips are genetic - his first bite at 15 months was hard and full (never seen a sleeve before or been out to schutzhund), of course we do still work on them too. 
YES I want him more serious in the guard, but I feel we are missing the bigger picture to put more or most emphasis on that aspect of the routine. 
Disclaimer: I am only 4 years into the sport


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:It's 10 points above passing. Plenty of leeway there to still achieve the title. Though I know what you mean since it's not what would be considered a "real" pass that allows for progression of titles.


Sorry, but since a score from 70-79 does not allow progression, does not allow a breed survey, does not allow breeding and thus is not considered a title I do not regard the 70-79pt as anything, but failing.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Sita, I have to disagree with you here. A dog with a "trained bark" isn't the same as one with strong gaurding. I also don't think that they are changing this too the detrement of the sport. I think they are changing it BACK for the betterment of the dogs. We all know people will breed to the winning dogs. If the emphasis isn't changed back to rewarding a "whole dog" then the aggression will be bred out of the GSD and along with it the many traits that made the breed the great dog it is. I'd love to see the scoring go back to the old system. Correct dogs that do the entire routine prfectly but with less power and aggression can't score "V" points. 

You mentioned gripping. Too be able to judge a dog on the gripping depends greatly on the helper. Again if you read Lance's article in the last USA mag he explained it very well. Many trial helpers don't do a proper re-attack. The arm should not move, the stick should come up over the dog for the re-attack. Most helpers will move the arm creating a prey bite which doesn't test the dog. Many dogs grips will look different if the bite is prey vs. defense.

I must say this is the first I've heard of an 80 point limit. The judge at the trial I was at deffinately didn't score it that way. By the way no one said that they are going to place "more or most emphasis" on gaurding than other patrs of protection. They are just trying to get the dogs back into balance instead of just a bunch of well train sleeve happy dogs. That is not what Schutzhund was ever supposed to be for anyway.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

R. Mattox Good point, thanks for helping me see a different view. I would like to see a dog barking with the core of its being in the blind for sure as long it does not tip the judging too far that way to offset the other aspects.

There was a time when the B and H i think was five points? I looked a videos from the 70's and dog could circle the blinds. The emphasis has changed.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: I must say this is the first I've heard of an 80 point limit.


I think he was simply saying that a person "could" end up with that score, not that they would. There is still a bit of "judging" involved...at least I hope there is. Sometimes, it seems they get a little nutty with one aspect and it starts to swing the pendulum too far in one direction.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Sarah'sSitaI really don't know but the Rottweiler in our club ( 2 time National SchH Champ handler) states that in general barking and guarding is not a natural thing for a Rott. Some dogs it has to be a trained behavior. I know its GSD forum, but just saying.


Not only this is a GSD Forum, but also Schutzhund is a GSD test. Rules should not accommodate to allow other breeds to do better. For that you can compete in IPO which is basically the same.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The thing that concerns me the most about these pronouncements from the judges is the understanding of what is a good bark and also the inability of many to achieve one with a dog who is more balanced or very sure of himself. Not so much from the judges,( although there are a few I worry about), but from the trainers.

One type of dog is much easier to get the bark from than the more balanced or sure dog. The method of training has been so focused on biting and working pups, I think it is going to be a bit more difficult for some to get the right barking with a dog that may represent more of what the GSD should be about.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I am not implying that rules should change to accommodate a different breed, all I was saying is that for Rotties and other dogs a strong bark MUST be trained it is not a default/innate behavior in some dogs, including some GSDs. For some dogs the strong bark is out of frustraton and wanting to engage with the prey - object. I can understand that a judge has a difficult position to determine good training versus assessing the dog. I for one am NOT a good enough trainer to shape the bark and hold to ideal. Sometimes I just need to see what my brings to the exercise and reward with a bite when he makes progress. That seems difficult, that is why my club is helping me understand!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Sarah'sSitaI am not implying that rules should change to accommodate a different breed, all I was saying is that for Rotties and other dogs a strong bark MUST be trained it is not a default/innate behavior in some dogs, including some GSDs. For some dogs the strong bark is out of frustraton and wanting to engage with the prey - object. I can understand that a judge has a difficult position to determine good training versus assessing the dog. I for one am NOT a good enough trainer to shape the bark and hold to ideal. Sometimes I just need to see what my brings to the exercise and reward with a bite when he makes progress. That seems difficult, that is why my club is helping me understand!


We will do our best to make sure when the time is rite your dog will not be coming around the blind looking for a prey, your little pupper has a lot-so other stuff to work on before he gets his man dog duties


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