# Skin Problems Simply Means: German Shepherds Are Going Through EvolutionaryTransition



## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Hello beloved German-Shepherds-"Nuts"! :gsdhead::wub:

I am new to this forum (just signed up yesterday,) and this morning I thought to myself; "Why not getting to know more people, who like me, are obsessed with GSDs?"

Later, a second thought popped into my mind: "What if I shared with others the amazing benefits I've been reaping since the day I've decided to turn my German Shepherd Nel into a vegan dog? 

Now I know many of you may disapprove of my decision, but before you start typing your opinion (everyone's entitled to have one...  ) let me share with you my experience with this dietary transition. 

Here's a picture of my proud 11 years old German Shepherd (she's 10 in this photo) : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GYa4H44lz...IE/pSKDwMSNHj0/s1600/neliczka+in+meetup+1.jpg










And here's a picture of Nel when she developed skin problem, which as it turned out was due to her being on "regular;" meat-based diet: 










And finally, here's a picture of my fur-kid after 8 months of being fed a vegan dog food made by Evolution Diet Pet Food: 










Here we are hiking with our vegan 10 years old Nel, whose level of energy increased since the transition to a new food. By the way, it's so nice not to have to watch my fur-kid being so frustrated while scratching and biting her skin all the time...) :










How do I know for sure that it is the vegan food responsible for this undeniable improvement? Well, the anti-antibiotics prescribed by the vet relieved the symptoms ONLY while she was taking them. Additionally, as time was passing by, the vet had to increase the dosage, and even then, the pills, and the shots were not as effective... 

Only her new diet proved to deliver a permanent solution! Plus, there was a time that due to financial struggle, I went back to feeding Nel "regular" food. I thought it wasn't going to be a big deal if she had to eat for a week or so the old food. Well, I was wrong! Three days passed and I've noticed that the rush on her skin came back... YEP. 

It took about 2 weeks of feeding her with vegan food again for the rush to go away. But it did. (No more vet bills because of skin problem) :happyboogie:

So there you go... Nel and I are a living proof that our dogs (and their dietary habits) are evolving in a lightening speed.

They are going through transition same way we humans do. After all, dogs have Souls too! So why would it be any different for them?

I am convinced that the common skin problems in dogs (called with big words - dermatitis) have the same cause for which some humans can't tolerate lactose, gluten and all that... FOOD (the right kind) holds the answer to our problems...

K folks, that would be all. If you're hungry for more, stop by my blog: Vegan German Shepherd ~ life realized

Kisses, Hugs to you and your spoiled-rotten fur-kids... aw:


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

Let the games begin..


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Hello beloved German-Shepherds-"Nuts"! :gsdhead::wub:
> 
> I am new to this forum (just signed up yesterday,) and this morning I thought to myself; "Why not getting to know more people, who like me, are obsessed with GSDs?"
> 
> ...


Even if it did work, (not saying it doesn't!) i doubt my picky eater of a dog would eat any meal that is vegan! That being said, maybe i am wrong.. 
What did the meals look like? Could you give examples of what a week of feeding vegan would look like?
Although i do think that dogs are eating way too many things that even humans shouldn't be eating.. I also believe that meat is very important to their diet. As a human, i have decided individually, that i do not want to eat meat because it grosses me out, i don't see why i should eat it when i can live a perfectly healthy life without eating it, and i love beings of all types- life is so beautiful and precious (especially the breathing king with heart beats and personalities!), and i also hate the culture aspect of eating meat its all too biased, arrogant and ignorant..


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

E.Hatch said:


> Let the games begin..



^^^ That was absolutely not neccessary. Please discuss in an appropriate, adult manner, always showing due respect.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSD are not going through some evolutionary transition.

There are dogs that never have diarrhea , allergies, itchies, nothing , nada. That is my experience.

I think the North American diet is appropriately named SAD , although that stands for Standard American Diet.

Too much meat . 

Vegetarianism started back when Kellogg , of Battlecreek corn flake cereal fame, and Graham , he of Graham crackers advocate vegetarianism for religious reasons and to put a damper of baser instincts . No hanky panky or other degenerate activity .

well presented in T C Boyle's The Road to Wellville The Road to Wellville: T.C. Boyle: 9780140167184: Books - Amazon.ca

The women of the Temperance Movement were right on board .

I am not against vegetarians, my diet is very flexible in cultural breadth and in variety , high per centage of vegetables for pleasure and health. 
I have a son who is a vegan, has been so for the last 12 years . 

The right food can make dramatic differences -- dogs however aren't meant to be vegans or vegetarians . It is not in their physiology . They may be okay as an individual for a short term - but over the long haul over generations you will have problems . That was the essence of Pottenger's Cats [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Pottengers-Cats-A-Study-Nutrition/dp/0916764060[/ame]

A diet should be species appropriate.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Every dog is different, and what works for one dog may not work for another.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what was your dog being fed before the change to vegan diet .


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

VTGirlT said:


> Even if it did work, (not saying it doesn't!) i doubt my picky eater of a dog would eat any meal that is vegan! That being said, maybe i am wrong..
> What did the meals look like? Could you give examples of what a week of feeding vegan would look like?
> Although i do think that dogs are eating way too many things that even humans shouldn't be eating.. I also believe that meat is very important to their diet. As a human, i have decided individually, that i do not want to eat meat because it grosses me out, i don't see why i should eat it when i can live a perfectly healthy life without eating it, and i love beings of all types- life is so beautiful and precious (especially the breathing king with heart beats and personalities!), and i also hate the culture aspect of eating meat its all too biased, arrogant and ignorant..


Hi Mom of Zelda! 

I've been actually very lucky 'cause my Nel does not mind the new food at all. (Even though she's picky when it comes to treats... she won't eat the dogie-cookies for example.) I feed her with dry food, and wet (canned) as well whenever money permits... She LOVES the wet food, and I have to hoover around her while feeding her, to discourage my 4 cats from eating from her bowl.. ( they get their own, but of course whatever's in Nel's bowl seems more appealing to them...) 

I'm trying to add a picture of the vegan food I buy (let's hope it will load this time) : 

If it's not showing, here's the link to the Evolution Pet Diet Food website: http://www.evolutiondietstore.com/ma...m1plqscsfapp04

I hope this info answered your questions. And God bless you for loving so much the animals and refraining from eating meat. It always makes me happy to hear people saying that out loud. :thumbup:
__________________


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Your photo links are all broken.

.html will not show up as an image.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

The pictures didn't load, so I'm adding them here in reply. And why would it let me add only 2 pictures? Grrrrr... Doing new things sometimes drives me nuts... somebody :help: please...:crazy:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

ElzbietaP said:


> Hello beloved German-Shepherds-"Nuts"! :gsdhead::wub:
> 
> I am new to this forum (just signed up yesterday,) and this morning I thought to myself; "Why not getting to know more people, who like me, are obsessed with GSDs?"
> 
> ...


The pictures didn't load, so I'm adding them here in reply. And why would it let me add now only 3 pictures? Grrrrr... Doing new things sometimes drives me nuts... somebody :help: please...:crazy:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> what was your dog being fed before the change to vegan diet .


I think you're asking me this question (can you tell I'm a newbie when it comes to forum?...) 

She was on every type of food I can think of, starting with expensive Science Diet years ago, to more affordable ones you can get anywhere. When I discovered the vegan food, that's when things started to change for better.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> Every dog is different, and what works for one dog may not work for another.


True, but it's always worth trying.... I shared this info hoping it will save some folks some money on frequent visits to the vet. ..


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Your photo links are all broken.
> 
> .html will not show up as an image.


I contacted the Administrators but they didn't get back to me yet... I'm gonna try to load them here again in the reply, this seems to be working better:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> ^^^ That was absolutely not neccessary. Please discuss in an appropriate, adult manner, always showing due respect.


Thank you Lucia for sticking up for me... I didn't even notice the sarcastic I guess tone of that comment at first, thinking it was someone's new post.. I guess being new at this forum thing has its advantages...  Kisses and Hugs Sister!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Thank you Lucia for sticking up for me... I didn't even notice the sarcastic I guess tone of that comment at first, thinking it was someone's new post.. I guess being new at this forum thing has its advantages...  Kisses and Hugs Sister!


I don't think that was really a sarcastic comment and I'm not so sure Lucia's post wasn't mainly a pre-emptive statement to everyone. Your topic of a vegen diet for dogs is one that will generally bring on pretty contentious feelings.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

carried over from another thread "
ingredients "
*Ingredients:*
Whole Non-GMO Oats, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Carrots, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Potato Product, Dried Molasses, Deflourinated Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Nutritional Yeast, Arginine, DL-Methionine, Kelp Meal, Taurine, Garlic, Enzyme Bromelain from Pineapple Stem and Fruit, Enzyme Papain from Papaya, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidum fermentation product, Lysine, Choline Chloride, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D2 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Ascorbic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite complex, Folic acid, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B-2), Inositol, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Methionine Complex, Copper Lysine Complex, Manganese, Methionine Complex, L-Carnitine, Arachidonic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Cobalt Glucoheptonate."

no thanks . I would have thought that the vitamins would have come from greens, whole food , berries, fruit , not the standard vitamin pre-mix probably from some lab in China.

lacking in full amino acids , and minerals. Survive maybe, thrive , it's a stretch.

There are better "vegan" choices , hemp flour , seeds being as complete an amino acid profile as a plant source can be , both essential and non essential amino acids.

Dogs aren't vegans . Ran into this while being an invited participant in Toronto's Raw and Vegan festival , first and second year . 
__________________

I think Science Diet is better than this !!

Tell me how the GSD is going through a transitionary evolution.

Evolving to be what exactly . 

Why the GSD .


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> GSD are not going through some evolutionary transition.
> 
> There are dogs that never have diarrhea , allergies, itchies, nothing , nada. That is my experience.
> 
> ...


Hey Carmen,

I agree with you about Americans diet being named SAD and how ironically accurate that is... 

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree though when it comes to your view that dogs should not be vegan. Again, this is just my opinion. I personally like not to have to pay the vet bills on regular basis like I used to...

And so I'm very grateful to whomever invented vegan dog food...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

who does like to pay vet bills.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> carried over from another thread "
> ingredients "
> *Ingredients:*
> Whole Non-GMO Oats, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Carrots, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Potato Product, Dried Molasses, Deflourinated Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Nutritional Yeast, Arginine, DL-Methionine, Kelp Meal, Taurine, Garlic, Enzyme Bromelain from Pineapple Stem and Fruit, Enzyme Papain from Papaya, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidum fermentation product, Lysine, Choline Chloride, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D2 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Ascorbic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite complex, Folic acid, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B-2), Inositol, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Methionine Complex, Copper Lysine Complex, Manganese, Methionine Complex, L-Carnitine, Arachidonic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Cobalt Glucoheptonate."
> ...


Well, it's been over a year since Nel is on her vegan diet, and she continues to amaze me with how well she's been doing. Additionally, a couple of times when I had to give her regular food (yes, I struggle with money like most people do, I'm not embarrassed to admit that...) - her skin issues came back within just days! That was it for me. No more doubt what's been causing her skin irritation. 

I think she is very sensitive to what's in "regular" food. In my humble opinion anytime anyone exhibits high sensitivity (any kind), it's a sign of a being evolving on higher speed..


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> who does like to pay vet bills.


LOL... not me...:wild:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think that was really a sarcastic comment and I'm not so sure Lucia's post wasn't mainly a pre-emptive statement to everyone. Your topic of a vegen diet for dogs is one that will generally bring on pretty contentious feelings.


I figured it would. Thank goodness though we are free to share what's on our minds.... Hopefully we can do it with respect and kindness, but I DO understand if some topics can get on people's nerves. This shouldn't be one of them though.... It's a friendly post, I'd say.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I find it more probable that your beautiful girl has an allergy to a protein commonly found in dog foods, chicken, beef, and that by eliminating those you eliminated the problem. 

Dogs are omnivores. They should have meat. If Science Diet is the best quality food you tried, then I am sure she is doing better. It may be expensive, but it's not a good food. 

I am very happy your girl is doing well. And I hope she continues to thrive!!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ElzbietaP said:


> I think she is very sensitive to what's in "regular" food. In my humble opinion anytime anyone exhibits high sensitivity (any kind), it's a sign of a being evolving on higher speed..


Is there any basis for this opinion? That is a new one on me.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I find it more probable that your beautiful girl has an allergy to a protein commonly found in dog foods, chicken, beef, and that by eliminating those you eliminated the problem.
> 
> Dogs are omnivores. They should have meat. If Science Diet is the best quality food you tried, then I am sure she is doing better. It may be expensive, but it's not a good food.
> 
> I am very happy your girl is doing well. And I hope she continues to thrive!!!


Thank you gsdsar. It would make sense to reason that the proteins in meat have been causing all those skin issues. Most likely that's exactly what it was. Hence my conclusion that even dogs could be evolving from being carnivores to a beings that eat plant-based diet. 

btw, I love your signature: "So that others can live..."


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Thank you gsdsar. It would make sense to reason that the proteins in meat have been causing all those skin issues. Most likely that's exactly what it was. Hence my conclusion that even dogs could be evolving from being carnivores to a beings that eat plant-based diet.
> 
> btw, I love your signature: "So that others can live..."


You could've made that assumption if you fed her raw organic meat. To say that it must've been the meat proteins that were the problem when you feed dog food that has very little meat and the little it has is heavily processed probably isn't correct. 

Besides, science diet is far from the best food. And then you said 'more affordable ones' so whatever else you fed was probably even worse (I'm not being mean about it)

So you don't really know what bothered her in the food. Fwiw, my dog also had bad allergies, they went away after a few months on raw meat.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> Is there any basis for this opinion? That is a new one on me.


About the highly evolved beings you mean? It's just my opinion but I feel that all those people who are highly sensitive, for example, physically - those who suffer from lactose intolerance etc, or mentally - those who suffer from depression and other "mental disorders" - are really just individuals who are going through a spiritual transformation. 

I believe the world as we know it is changing rapidly. I believe all those allergies for example, and other health issues are forcing us to reconsider our (meat based) diet. 

One of the books I read, called The World Peace Diet was responsible for opening my eyes on this subject called veganism. I loved it. 

Additionally, becoming a vegan played a huge role in my overcoming severe depression and suicidal tendencies from which I suffered for over 3 decades. 

Here's a blog I wrote about that, if you're interested to know more: 10 Natural Ways To Cure Depression ~ life realized


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> You could've made that assumption if you fed her raw organic meat. To say that it must've been the meat proteins that were the problem when you feed dog food that has very little meat and the little it has is heavily processed probably isn't correct.
> 
> Besides, science diet is far from the best food. And then you said 'more affordable ones' so whatever else you fed was probably even worse (I'm not being mean about it)
> 
> So you don't really know what bothered her in the food. Fwiw, my dog also had bad allergies, they went away after a few months on raw meat.


No offense taken. No, I did not give her raw meat, so I can't really say if that would improve her condition. I guess I could try doing it now, to see what happens, but I've been real happy (and so is Nel) with this vegan dog food so I'll stick with it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> No offense taken. No, I did not give her raw meat, so I can't really say if that would improve her condition. I guess I could try doing it now, to see what happens, but I've real been happy (and so is Nel) with this vegan dog food so I'll stick with it.


You don't have to try raw meat. I'm just saying you can't draw a conclusion that she's allergic to meat proteins based on feeding science diet and the like.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Are people who have pups , litters , excited about one of their dogs going into a home where veganism is going to be the choice for the dog.

You can adopt anything for yourself , no problem.

A dog . No . It wouldn't be one of my pups . 

I don't think the full genetic potential would be fulfilled.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

When I switched my dog from Blue Buffalo to Fromm's & all her allergy problems went away too, so maybe Fromm is the way to go? It has nothing to do with switching to vegan diet, you just happen to remove whatever she was allergic too by the switch. Dogs are designed by nature to eat meat, sharp pointy teeth and short alimentary canal.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> You don't have to try raw meat. I'm just saying you can't draw a conclusion that she's allergic to meat proteins based on feeding science diet and the like.


 hmmm... I'm pretty sure I can... What was the common denominator of all those dog foods? Meat. Which the new one has none.. I'm not very good at math, but that's enough for me to be convinced. 

But this post isn't intended to convince anyone else about anything. The main reason behind it is to share with others my experience, so then perhaps those who've been feeling frustrated with having to take their pups to the vets on a regular basis because of their skin problem, may actually try a totally new approach, as opposed to spending hundreds of dollars in vet bills. (If you've noticed: I don't gain anything from people switching their pet food to vegan kind....) 

Seems like you are not one of those having these type of issues, so I'm happy for you. Please don't create discouragement for those who do need help though. 

Kisses and Hugs


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Are people who have pups , litters , excited about one of their dogs going into a home where veganism is going to be the choice for the dog.
> 
> You can adopt anything for yourself , no problem.
> 
> ...



Hmm. would you rather then watch your dog continue to bite herself and continue to lose her gorgeous fur, instead of removing meat from her diet???? Interesting. BTW, I adopted Nel from a puppy mill that went bankrupt when she was 2 years old, and no one wanted a grown dog that had behavioral issues due to her inhumane upbringing in a small cage. 

Anyone who will try making me feel bad about my decision of putting my GSD on vegan diet, I won't even bother replying... 

The world needs more encouragers, not the critics. There is plenty of those around already....


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree that modern societies are eating too much meat, and I don't eat much non-locally harvested meat myself. I am glad your dog is thriving. It is obvious you love her, and she is well cared for. If she's doing well on a vegan diet, terrific! She looks great for 10. 

But....You keep using the word "evolved" and it seems like you are using the scientific form of the word, but are using it incorrectly. There is the non-scientific meaning of evolve, too, but if you are talking about "evolution" of GSDs and not one individual, the only way the breed would "evolve" to a vegan lifestyle is if somehow all the vegan dogs went wild and eating vegan meant they were having more babies, and their babies had more babies, and the meat eating GSDs also went wild, but the meat eating dogs didn't have as many babies... and so on. This is natural selection. 

In a non-genetic sense, people and dogs can "evolve" to a higher level. But if you are saying that your GSD's actual genetics are changing to adapt to a vegan diet, nope. An individual animal can not "evolve" that way. Just like an individual wild animal can be "tamed" but not "domesticated". The difference is that taming involves changes in just behavior, and domestication involves changes in the genetic make-up of the dog or animal that can be passed on to offspring.

But your individual dog didn't evolve to be able to eat a vegan diet. Not in the genetic sense. I know it's nitpicky, but I had to clarify. 

Again, you obviously love your dog and she is happy. There are much worse things a person can do that feed their dog vegan. I know a vegetarian dog that lived a healthy 15 years. If the dog is doing well, that's fine by me.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

My dog only itches in the spring when the pollen count is high. Does that mean I should feed him vegan diet then and normal stuff later.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I agree that modern societies are eating too much meat, and I don't eat much non-locally harvested meat myself. I am glad your dog is thriving. It is obvious you love her, and she is well cared for. If she's doing well on a vegan diet, terrific! She looks great for 10.
> 
> But....You keep using the word "evolved" and it seems like you are using the scientific form of the word, but are using it incorrectly. There is the non-scientific meaning of evolve, too, but if you are talking about "evolution" of GSDs and not one individual, the only way the breed would "evolve" to a vegan lifestyle is if somehow all the vegan dogs went wild and eating vegan meant they were having more babies, and their babies had more babies, and the meat eating GSDs also went wild, but the meat eating dogs didn't have as many babies... and so on. This is natural selection.
> 
> ...


Thank you Muskeg. She is my pride indeed. And I don't feel guilty for treating her like my child cause to me she is. 

The evolution thing, I don't really care going into the detail, although I do appreciate your input. I've always been a person that believes that everyone's beliefs are important and true. Whatever a person feels in their heart - is what is TRUE to that person. 

I always listen more to my heart than my mind. Although I cherish my mind dearly, my heart led me in life to things that my mind could not even visualize being possible...


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> My dog only itches in the spring when the pollen count is high. Does that mean I should feed him vegan diet then and normal stuff later.


I really don't know, but it sure wouldn't hurt to try. If you do, please let me know of the results. I'd love to find out whether the nutrients in this vegan dog food made by Evolution Pet Diet could actually help solve even seasonal allergies. 
I wouldn't be too surprised if it actually did!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm sure you wouldn't.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> hmmm... I'm pretty sure I can... What was the common denominator of all those dog foods? Meat. Which the new one has none.. I'm not very good at math, but that's enough for me to be convinced.
> 
> But this post isn't intended to convince anyone else about anything. The main reason behind it is to share with others my experience, so then perhaps those who've been feeling frustrated with having to take their pups to the vets on a regular basis because of their skin problem, may actually try a totally new approach, as opposed to spending hundreds of dollars in vet bills. (If you've noticed: I don't gain anything from people switching their pet food to vegan kind....)
> 
> ...


You don't know what the common denominator is until you take all ingredients on all foods you fed, including treats and compare them to your current food. Maybe there's an additive she's allergic to, or maybe one or two proteins. 

Dogs are rarely allergic to all meat. Also, from what I read, when they are allergic, they're not allergic to the meat itself, it's the antibiotics and stuff in the meat they're allergic to. But I'm not sure about this. Just passing it on. 
However, what i am sure about is that your dog isn't allergic to meat. 
but you do what you want, of course, I'm just giving my opinion. 

As far as discouraging others. I'm just giving my opinion. And i think people should be discouraged. Dogs aren't meant to be vegan, look at their teeth and their digestive system. 
I know you say that your dog loves the food. If he has no other options and is starving then of course he will love the food. 
But i guarantee you that if you put down a piece of meat and his food or even fresh vegetables, he won't go to the vegetables. That, along with his teeth and digestive tract and the fact that they're hunters should tell you all you need to know


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> You don't know what the common denominator is until you take all ingredients on all foods you fed, including treats and compare them to your current food. Maybe there's an additive she's allergic to, or maybe one or two proteins.
> 
> Dogs are rarely allergic to all meat. Also, from what I read, when they are allergic, they're not allergic to the meat itself, it's the antibiotics and stuff in the meat they're allergic to. But I'm not sure about this. Just passing it on.
> However, what i am sure about is that your dog isn't allergic to meat.
> ...


I understand. Everyone has their view, and I don't intend to disregard that. I actually appreciate respectful input. 

The 'allergy thing' is really just a way of saying, while trying to communicate with others. When the vet run every single possible test she could think of (and yes, the bill was high...), she actually stated that Nel had NO allergies, and she admitted that she did not know what was causing her re-occurring skin issues. 

While talking back and forth here with GSD lovers, I used the term 'allergy' loosely, hoping to get my point across. I don't like to stick rigidly to words as those can mean different things in different context, creating confusion. 

The point of the original post is; Nel and I are happier and healthier since becoming vegans. Anyone who wants to try it, be my guest. Anyone who's opposed to it - go on with your life, no hard feelings.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdsar said:


> I find it more probable that your beautiful girl has an allergy to a protein commonly found in dog foods, chicken, beef, and that by eliminating those you eliminated the problem.
> 
> Dogs are omnivores. They should have meat. If Science Diet is the best quality food you tried, then I am sure she is doing better. It may be expensive, but it's not a good food.
> 
> I am very happy your girl is doing well. And I hope she continues to thrive!!!





ElzbietaP said:


> Thank you gsdsar. It would make sense to reason that the proteins in meat have been causing all those skin issues. Most likely that's exactly what it was. Hence my conclusion that even dogs could be evolving from being carnivores to a beings that eat plant-based diet.
> 
> btw, I love your signature: "So that others can live..."


I agree with gsdsar. I do not think dogs are evolving to be vegan's. That just does not make sense. They are omnivores. They can survive on a vegan commercial diet because all necessary vitamins and minerals are added in. However, it's not a biologically appropriate diet. I would like to see the bloodwork on a dog that has eaten this their entire life. Namely their kidney function. Cats fed a kibble diet are showing kidney damage and diabetes on commercial foods, primarily kibble because of the corn and wheat.

Now...as far as the skin issue. That could be anything in those foods! Science Diet is terrible! I have a cat that had IBD for years and could only eat SD ID food. Until I looked at the bag and realized I was feeding an obligate carnivore CORN! So I switched him to a raw diet. Problem solved. I thought he needed supplements so I gave him Felo-form for 3 days and he had explosive diarrhea. Personally, I think it was the brewer's yeast in it.

My young male eats a commercial raw diet. Bravo Balance. He had diarrhea on their turkey formula but no problem with a homemade turkey meal.

My point is that the issue could have been anything in that bag, most likely a single protein, not meat protein in general (since this vegan food has corn for protein and there is no issue).

I'm not going to try to dissuade you. To each their own and it's your dog. I would urge you to gave yearly blood work done to watch her levels closely. This whole vegan thing with animals is very new and you really don't know the long term effects for many years.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lalachka said:


> You don't know what the common denominator is until you take all ingredients on all foods you fed, including treats and compare them to your current food. Maybe there's an additive she's allergic to, or maybe one or two proteins.
> 
> Dogs are rarely allergic to all meat. Also, from what I read, when they are allergic, they're not allergic to the meat itself,* it's the antibiotics and stuff in the meat they're allergic to*. But I'm not sure about this. Just passing it on.
> However, i am sure about is that your dog isn't allergic to meat.
> ...


The bolded is true for us, Zoey could not eat chicken based kibble, but she can eat raw chicken, without the steroids and junk, no problem. I'd venture to guess most problems stem from low quality meat sources and processing in low end dog food.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I agree with gsdsar. I do not think dogs are evolving to be vegan's. That just does not make sense. They are omnivores. They can survive on a vegan commercial diet because all necessary vitamins and minerals are added in. However, it's not a biologically appropriate diet. I would like to see the bloodwork on a dog that has eaten this their entire life. Namely their kidney function. Cats fed a kibble diet are showing kidney damage and diabetes on commercial foods, primarily kibble because of the corn and wheat.
> 
> Now...as far as the skin issue. That could be anything in those foods! Science Diet is terrible! I have a cat that had IBD for years and could only eat SD ID food. Until I looked at the bag and realized I was feeding an obligate carnivore CORN! So I switched him to a raw diet. Problem solved. I thought he needed supplements so I gave him Felo-form for 3 days and he had explosive diarrhea. Personally, I think it was the brewer's yeast in it.
> 
> ...


I like your quote; ~The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter~ 

I thrive on those too. One of my favorite ones is that of Albert Einstein: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." 

He also said: "Problems aren't solved in the state of awareness in which they occur. *Solution:* Change your state of consciousness."


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One common denominator of MANY commercial foods is CHICKEN and that particular meat causes a lot of the allergic reactions in dogs. 

I avoid it like the plague just because it is almost impossible to find an organic chicken dog food (read the label, the organic chicken is followed in the list by chicken meal...which is not organic)....to me the organic meat source is significant because GMO corn is the primary food of commercial raised chicken. Having had a dog with a chicken allergy, I can say it is very hard to avoid in foods but once he went on a salmon based diet the world was good. My current dog gets a good bit of grass fed venison and lamb during the winter months and fish based foods (right now it is sardines) and bison in the summer months....

I think the marketing on the vegan food is misleading. NON GMO Oats. I don't believe oats are a crop that has any GMO varieties in the first place. I don't know of any but most Corn and Soy in this country *IS *GMO and none of those ingredients is listed as non GMO**.... I go back and forth between meat based foods that are non GMO for the most part and have zero allergy problems. I think it is good genetics and he was fed a diverse diet all his life.

If the immune system of the dog is such that it is allergic, I think you will find that after awhile the dog will develop an allergy to the protein ingredients in the vegan food. Many of us rotate food to avoid sensitizing the immune system to a diet consisting of only one or two protein sources without variety. 

**even if you are ok with genetic manipulation of the feed grains, consider that they modify it so they can flood it with roundup and it won't die but the weeds will......so the unseen consequences of food laced with roundup may be like the horrid issues we are seeing with phtalates from plastic / BPA etc. Tip of the iceberg....we just don't know.......

I will make a concession to your evolution comment, though. Apparently dogs do have more genes coding for enzymes that digest starch than wild canids. That change is apparently long in the making for thousands of years of co-existence with humans, but they are nowhere near vegetarian animals by design. No salivary amylase, short digestive tracts, teeth designed for ripping meat, crushing bones, and bolting down meat, and highly acidic and short digestives systems...they have a LONG way to go to become vegan animals.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> One common denominator of MANY commercial foods is CHICKEN and that particular meat causes a lot of the allergic reactions in dogs.
> 
> I avoid it like the plague just because it is almost impossible to find an organic chicken dog food (read the label, the organic chicken is followed in the list by chicken meal...which is not organic)....to me the organic meat source is significant because GMO corn is the primary food of commercial raised chicken. Having had a dog with a chicken allergy, I can say it is very hard to avoid in foods but once he went on a salmon based diet the world was good. My current dog gets a good bit of grass fed venison and lamb during the winter months and fish based foods (right now it is sardines) and bison in the summer months....
> 
> ...


Oh, I don't doubt that it may take some time. I think evolution is a lengthy process, for sure. As for the GMO, I try to avoid it same way you stay away from the chickens fed with antibiotics. It's not the easiest thing to do so, especially in this country. It is very possible that the modified food in the regular food I was buying was responsible, or partially responsible for Nel's discomfort.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I will offer a different view / explanation. One of my dogs had terrible allergies for a long time developed from the later part of his puppyhood. Tried to switch to raw. Dog refused to take the raw meat - this is organic, high quality raw meat. I cooked for the dog, 100% vegan. Dog would only eat that and would spit out the meat or not touch it. For a long time, about 1 year, dog was vegan, on cooked food. His allergy condition improved greatly then once he entered a normal healthy stable condition he started taking in raw meat and prefers that over cooked vegan food. Now he eats mostly a raw meat based diet.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Bear L said:


> I will offer a different view / explanation. One of my dogs had terrible allergies for a long time developed from the later part of his puppyhood. Tried to switch to raw. Dog refused to take the raw meat - this is organic, high quality raw meat. I cooked for the dog, 100% vegan. Dog would only eat that and would spit out the meat or not touch it. For a long time, about 1 year, dog was vegan, on cooked food. His allergy condition improved greatly then once he entered a normal healthy stable condition he started taking in raw meat and prefers that over cooked vegan food. Now he eats mostly a raw meat based diet.


That is really interesting. Thanks for sharing it. So the vegan thing did help your pup with overcoming the health issues. I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who's been having this positive experience with the vegan dog food.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> I understand. Everyone has their view, and I don't intend to disregard that. I actually appreciate respectful input.
> 
> The 'allergy thing' is really just a way of saying, while trying to communicate with others. When the vet run every single possible test she could think of (and yes, the bill was high...), she actually stated that Nel had NO allergies, and she admitted that she did not know what was causing her re-occurring skin issues.
> 
> ...


My respectful opinion. You're def happier, not sure about your dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> **even if you are ok with genetic manipulation of the feed grains, consider that they modify it so they can flood it with roundup and it won't die but the weeds will......so the unseen consequences of food laced with roundup may be like the horrid issues we are seeing with phtalates from plastic / BPA etc. Tip of the iceberg....we just don't know.......
> 
> I will make a concession to your evolution comment, though. Apparently dogs do have more genes coding for enzymes that digest starch than wild canids. That change is apparently long in the making for thousands of years of co-existence with humans, but they are nowhere near vegetarian animals by design. No salivary amylase, short digestive tracts, teeth designed for ripping meat, crushing bones, and bolting down meat, and highly acidic and short digestives systems...they have a LONG way to go to become vegan animals.


Nancy, hopefully the op doesn't mind. Can you elaborate on the above? As much as you can and willing to type lol

This is very interesting. What's flooding with roundup and what issues are we seeing with phthalates?

About evolution. So dogs did evolve to eat veggies a little? The way I see it, they can digest it and maybe get some nutrients out of it but they don't need to have it. Is that true?

And I'd take anything else about all this 
I'd start a thread so you can write all you want but I'm not sure what the subject would be


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> My respectful opinion. You're def happier, not sure about your dog.


Her smile and the sparkles in her eyes reassure me that she is too.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Allergies when it comes to food come off of protein based molecules, something found in different amounts and complete sequences in both plant and meat sources. The more you are exposed to a certain protein, the higher chance that you will become allergic to it. I have a dog who is very allergic to chicken. If I avoid dog foods with chicken in them, she doesn't have any skin issues. It clears up actually very quickly. The more the diet was a novel protein source with legumes instead of potatoes in it, the better even then. Each food comes with its own challenges. 

I actually would venture to say that raw meat holds in the end of the day LESS of the protein the animal is allergic to because the vast majority of raw meat is water! It is why when you dehydrate it, it shrinks down considerably and the quantity of the meat based proteins increases within it. It is why they say that foods with meat meals are better than merely named meat because it's going to be 300 times more concentrated in protein. 

So dehydrated and cooked meat will have more proteins and potentially changed sequences of proteins than raw food. 

There are few foods that hold a complete amino acid profile better than meats do, and bioavailability becomes less with non-meat based sources of protein than ones that come from meat/animal products. That's my two cents on it. I've done a lot of extra homework on nutrition since you only get so much of it in prep for veterinary medicine based careers.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Why is meat meal better than meat? Aren't both dehydrated?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP said "Hmm. would you rather then watch your dog continue to bite herself and continue to lose her gorgeous fur, instead of removing meat from her diet???? Interesting"

No I would not . Not mine and not someone elses either . Where does that necessitate removing meat from the diet ? Hardly a sensible conclusion.
This is an area that in which I have a great deal of involvement .

OP said "Anyone who will try making me feel bad about my decision of putting my GSD on vegan diet, I won't even bother replying... "

I had that feeling . 
Maybe not only bother replying , but also not bother considering . Not considering any other option , or input .

OP said "The world needs more encouragers, not the critics."

The world needs critical thinking . 

OP "Everyone has their view, and I don't intend to disregard that. I actually appreciate respectful input. "

But you just finished saying that anyone who questions your position won't be replied to . 

Corn gluten is used in beef raising and chicken feed . 
Your dogs colour may have been improved because the corn does have xanthophyll's which improves red pigment . You have carrot in the product , a source of carotene , also having an effect on pigment -- improving or enhancing reds .

Corn gluten meal has a high glycemic index. Have you thought about rising blood sugar levels?

Corn is usually implicated in canine health problems . Corn , GMO , corn contaminated with molds , spores , pesticide , herbicide residues , storage grain mites .

The digestibility of corn , for a dog with that short transit time in the gut , is low . I don't see amylase or cellulase , those specific digestive enzymes needed to digest starch , fiber , carbohydrates. 
An egg is held up to be 100% bio-available . Corn sits at the 50% mark.
Corn is high in omega 6 . Animals fed corn, grains, whether 4 legged , fowl, or farmed salmon , will accumulate this omega 6 . 
This is a major cause for inflammation . An outbalance of 6 which is abundant , is pro inflammatory. Omega 3 needs to be added as a corrective . 

I don't see any fat . Dogs metabolize protein and fat . They need animal fat , as a source for energy. 
Fats are necessary for fat soluble vitamins , A , D, E and K . 
Fats are necessary for nerve (eye, brain) skin, coat , immune health also, for the production of hormones and protection of organs .

Veganism goes beyond dietary choice . 
Upton Sinclair revealed the horror of the slaughter houses, the abattoirs , in his book The Jungle . 

That is just wrong on so many levels. Repugnant. 
Rail against that . Advocate humane and appropriate raising of meat animals.

Species appropriate . If cows had not been fed animal protein we would not have had BSE , bovine spongiform encephalopathy . 

I have been a regular participant at an organic farmers' market , only recently giving that up for lack of time. I know the issues well. 

If someone dropped a chunk of meat in front of your dog , I bet she/he would be on it , beastly , like white on rice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

your evolution goes beyond physical adaptation 
"About the highly evolved beings you mean? It's just my opinion but I feel that all those people who are highly sensitive, for example, physically - those who suffer from lactose intolerance etc, or mentally - those who suffer from depression and other "mental disorders" - are really just individuals who are going through a spiritual transformation"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

lalachka. About the GMOs. We could start another thread. Basically many many crops (corn, soy, canola, beets, etc.) are genetically modified so that we can spray them with powerful herbicides [the company that makes the herbicides is doing most of the modification, btw] ..the modification allows the plants to resist death by herbicide. Because the weeds are naturally evolving into superweeds they are looking at moving from roundup resistance to crops that can be sprayed with 2,4D (a component of agent orange). They are also inserting insecticde genes in some crops saying "it is a safe organic insecticide" but they are taking something (BT) that decomposes readily in contact with air and splicing it into plant genes. Very little published testing on these practices and that which does get completed are coming up with scary results in regards to cancers and birth defects. To go onto why this is allowed here and banned many other places, would be a bit of a political discussion and a huge one when you look at some of the corporate global alliances in the works - there is certainly plenty out there not on our forum about this stuff. Glad to steer you to more info if you PM me.

The phtalates are platicizers with tend to mess with estrogen levels in the blood. Having two grown daughters in prime reproductive years and seeing issues with PCOS and hormone levels.....and hearing so much about it elsewhere...then finding out BPA free containers may not be safe either....


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Why is meat meal better than meat? Aren't both dehydrated?


This info is from our dog food company:
Duck Meal Duck meal is derived from cooking the flesh and organ meat of Ducks. This process extracts the water, leaving a concentrated, highly-digestible source of protein and fat. Duck is a nutritious meat protein that is critical in providing quality sources of essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals required for muscle development and energy. It is also an excellent source of Omega 6 fatty acids, which support healthy skin & coat. All of Best Breed's meat sources are naturally preserved.

All of the meals are described similarly..


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

ElzbietaP said:


> ...
> Anyone who will try making me feel bad about my decision of putting my GSD on vegan diet, I won't even bother replying...
> 
> The world needs more encouragers, not the critics. There is plenty of those around already....


It's clear that your mind is closed on this subject. I'm happy to see your opinion balanced out by others on this forum. In this way, others reading this thread won't be misled.



ElzbietaP said:


> I like your quote; ~The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter~


You like this quote but you don't take it to heart. Your opinion is quite strong, that much is obvious.

There have been some excellent posts on this thread from serious, learned minds including a canine nutritional expert, a veterinarian, breeders and others who have owned many, many dogs over decades. 

I don't see much in the way of factual information supporting your opinion. You also said you are ruled by your heart and not your mind. You are also entitled to your opinion and I respect that. 

I am simply cautioning those reading this thread to use their minds when deciding what to feed their dogs.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> OP said "Hmm. would you rather then watch your dog continue to bite herself and continue to lose her gorgeous fur, instead of removing meat from her diet???? Interesting"
> 
> No I would not . Not mine and not someone elses either . Where does that necessitate removing meat from the diet ? Hardly a sensible conclusion.
> This is an area that in which I have a great deal of involvement .
> ...


You certainly know few things about nutrition for dogs, that seems obvious. Thank you for taking the time to share that here with others. 

My not replying to negative comments has nothing to do with not considering other's point of view, quite the contrary. It simply means that if I sense a rigid, and unfriendly tone - I usually prefer to walk away from such discussion. 

I bet no one here would like to hear someone else telling them that they are treating their pup wrong, in any manner whatsoever... 

Being a German Shepherd lover I'm sure you found yourself in a situation, once or twice, where someone told you how to raise your fur-kid, and you might even got defensive about it. And there would be nothing wrong with that! 

Those comments about me not being open minded about meat, and having a strong opinion seem to be coming from those who are also very highly opinionated, if you asked me....


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

ElzbietaP said:


> I like your quote; ~The strength of one's opinion should not exceed their knowledge on the matter~


Been reading this thread and been trying not to reply, because I don't feel I can contribute anything that you will even consider listening to.

That quote you like, you should take it to heart.

You have every right to do whatever you want with your body, your life, and your dog... I am not going to argue or try to change your mind. Since you posted on a public forum, and I feel strongly about this, I am going to share my opinion too:

It is wrong to feed an omnivore/facultative carnivore a vegan diet based on your (albeit wonderful) personal beliefs. I went to school for Animal Care and that included a course on Animal Nutrition, an animal biology course, and some other assorted courses and in each and every one dogs are consistently classified as carnivores (although they obviously can eat carbs, grains, etc... not trying to dispute that at all!). 

Scientific fact is exactly that... I am going to trust the educated scientists and researchers who have dedicated a large amount of years to classifying the domestic canine and figuring our their body systems.

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: *Carnivora*
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. lupus familiaris



> *carnivore**,* any member of the mammalian order Carnivora (literally, “flesh devourers” in Latin), comprising more than 270 species. In a more general sense, a carnivore is any animal (or plant; _see_ carnivorous plant) that eats other animals, as opposed to a herbivore, which eats plants. Although the species classified in this order are basically meat eaters, a substantial number of them, especially among bears and members of the raccoon family, also feed extensively on vegetation and are thus actually...


You must respect the animal for what it is... 

I respectfully disagree with feeding dogs a vegan diet. I think you would benefit greatly from some more research, and maybe chatting with someone educated on the subject matter... often even e-mailing a local zoo and asking to speak with a zoologist or an animal biologist in regards to the canine diet could be highly beneficial. You could even write an e-mail to a university to speak with a professor who specializes in canines.

Wish you and your lovely dog all the best. Glad she is doing well! You are doing the best you can, fighting for your dog's health and well-being and that says a lot about your efforts to be a great dog owner.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> This info is from our dog food company:
> Duck Meal Duck meal is derived from cooking the flesh and organ meat of Ducks. This process extracts the water, leaving a concentrated, highly-digestible source of protein and fat. Duck is a nutritious meat protein that is critical in providing quality sources of essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals required for muscle development and energy. It is also an excellent source of Omega 6 fatty acids, which support healthy skin & coat. All of Best Breed's meat sources are naturally preserved.
> 
> All of the meals are described similarly..


So how is it better than duck meat, for example


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Nancy, will pm you later on. So much to ask but have to go to work


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Wild Wolf said:


> Been reading this thread and been trying not to reply, because I don't feel I can contribute anything that you will even consider listening to.
> 
> That quote you like, you should take it to heart.
> 
> ...


Thank you Wild Wolf. I do feel that I'm doing my best when it comes to my pup, but it is certainly nice to hear that.  

I do appreciate your input as well. I do not argue with the fact that I am not a scientist. My decision of putting Nel on Vegan diet I made after almost a decade of following the professionals called veterinarians. 

I don't wish to bush doctors etc, but in my story I simply share my frustration of spending hundreds of dollars over the period of time due to the frequent vet visits, and so finally when I switched Nel to her new food, and that brought me the solution I've been looking for, I decided to stick to it. 

The food I buy is quite pricey, since its not available in every store yet, but I prefer paying for food that somehow cured Nel's skin problem, that continuing to throw away my money somewhere else. 

This just seem more logical to me. 

Again, thank you for your input. Kisses and Hugs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wild Wolf said:


> You must respect the animal for what it is...


I have been saying this for the last two weeks regarding other matters! 

This is a canine. Not a human. Not a parrot. Not a cat. A canine. 

I can only strongly urge the OP to carefully monitor her dog's bloodwork on a regular basis. I feed a raw diet and do a chem17 on my dogs to get as many values as I can.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I have been saying this for the last two weeks regarding other matters!
> 
> This is a canine. Not a human. Not a parrot. Not a cat. A canine.
> 
> I can only strongly urge the OP to carefully monitor her dog's bloodwork on a regular basis. I feed a raw diet and do a chem17 on my dogs to get as many values as I can.


Absolutely - we always need to remember they are not humans, but dogs.. a separate species and always respect them for what they are!

Honestly, Jax08 gave you invaluable advice right there... do the blood work very regularly, closely monitor, and work closely with your vet if you are going to continue to do this diet.

Good luck!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's against board rules to advertise merchandise as is being sold in your blogspot link below your name.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I have been saying this for the last two weeks regarding other matters!
> 
> This is a canine. Not a human. Not a parrot. Not a cat. A canine.
> 
> I can only strongly urge the OP to carefully monitor her dog's bloodwork on a regular basis. I feed a raw diet and do a chem17 on my dogs to get as many values as I can.


I see nothing wrong with monitoring her blood work on a regular basis. I will certainly keep that in mind. 

I'd rather be proactive and pay the vet to make sure everything is fine, instead of spending my money on antibiotics, shots and all that. 

Thanks for the advice.


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## Aimeanda (Aug 14, 2014)

lalachka said:


> So how is it better than duck meat, for example


It's not that it's inherently better. It's more desirable in a list of ingredients on a bag of dog food. The ingredients are listed in order of highest content by weight. Therefore, when just duck meat is listed the weight of the protein and the water it contains is included and thus places it higher on the list than its comparable meal. When duck meal is listed it is the concentrated protein with very little of the water in the original duck meat remaining. 

When just duck meat is followed by a non-meat protein source like peas, it is very likely that much of the protein in the food is provided by the peas and not the duck meat.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's against board rules to advertise merchandise as is being sold in your blogspot link below your name.


Nope. It's not being sold on my blog, dear. My post has simply a link to the official site of the vegan food manufacturer so my readers, if they are interested, can easily access it. 

Have you not seen other websites doing that?

You know that country song; "Why you got to be so mean?" ( I don't remember the name of the singer)

I listen to it all the time, and I love it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

???? I clicked on the link and the first thing shown was an ad for a book. Other people are not allowed to sell things on here and have gotten warnings for posting such links. Here I thought I was being nice and letting you know before you received a warning. I know one who was warned for putting a watermark on a picture.

If I was mean, I would have just reported it. Rules are rules, sweetheart.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> ???? I clicked on the link and the first thing shown was an ad for a book. Other people are not allowed to sell things on here and have gotten warnings for posting such links. Here I thought I was being nice and letting you know before you received a warning. I know one who was warned for putting a watermark on a picture.
> 
> If I was mean, I would have just reported it. Rules are rules, sweetheart.


What ad do you refer to? I have no advertisement going on on my website. No ads. Everything you see on my website I own the copyrights to it. 

All the information (being vegan, overcoming depression partially due to my new diet...) is accessible to readers. (no membership required) 

And if someone who suffers from severe depression decides to buy the book I wrote, why would that be an issue? 

Somehow I get a feeling that with my replies I pinched your nerves. 

Seriously, I thought that people who love animals (GSDs especially) are really friendly peeps that I couldn't wait to get to know closer...


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I personally like not to have to pay the vet bills on regular basis like I used to...


my own dogs are not vegan or vegan fed and two of mine are eating straight raw due to other health issues not related to allergies or sensitivities
but all my dogs are doing wonderful and rarely need to visit the vet

as someone said early on all dogs are not alike and food should not be a one size fits all approach

also you mentioned 'expensive science diet"(i agree!) and that you switched to "cheapr foods you can find easily" or some such -- when you say that if you mean purina and pedigree
those are two easy to find cheaper foods

but they lack premium nutrition

if you had fed raw meats instead of anything bagged i wonder if your dog would have blossomed just like she is now?

it is my belief and probably not very scientific one at that, that dogs do better on meat based foods and proteins
the bioavailability of the proteins in foods they were meant to eat (meat based) would be greater than vegetable proteins such as soy

soy , to my knowledge , is the primary source of protein in vegetarian diets for dogs
there are also pea protein and probably a few others i am not aware of immediately

anyway my two dogs with health issues (which are not diet related) are truly thriving and would have died without the switch to raw meats


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> my own dogs are not vegan or vegan fed and two of mine are eating straight raw due to other health issues not related to allergies or sensitivities
> but all my dogs are doing wonderful and rarely need to visit the vet
> 
> as someone said early on all dogs are not alike and food should not be a one size fits all approach
> ...


It does make me wonder whether the raw meat would resolve the skin issue the way vegan food did. 

Despite what it may sound like, I don't consider myself a rigid "newly transformed" vegan who wants everyone else to become one as well. 

But I have been happy with this new food I found, and so as excited as I can get sometimes, I like to share things with the world. 

I'm very glad to hear that your fur-kids are alive and healthy. I think we as "parents" know in our hearts what our fur-kids need. It's always helpful to reach out to others, and to share our experiences too, I believe.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Interesting discussion. I think the OP is talking about micro evolution and not macro evolution. Macro is dog becomes cat. Micro is a change within the species or here micro of a sub species which would be the breed, GSD, not just all dogs.

I am interested to know what the person who cooks vegan for his or her dog cooks? Is it the same food a vegan eats? No judgment, just curious. Not sure I know what a vegan eats.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Cheyanna said:


> Interesting discussion. I think the OP is talking about micro evolution and not macro evolution. Macro is dog becomes cat. Micro is a change within the species or here micro of a sub species which would be the breed, GSD, not just all dogs.
> 
> I am interested to know what the person who cooks vegan for his or her dog cooks? Is it the same food a vegan eats? No judgment, just curious. Not sure I know what a vegan eats.


Actually, good question. I'd like to know more about that as well, this way I could diversify Nel's diet that much more. Hopefully we'll hear more about that. 

And yes, the evolution I had in mind was more of a spiritual nature... I am a firm believer that ALL animals have Souls, just like we humans do, and that we are not superior to them whatsoever....

Ooops.. I thought you were asking the question about cooking vegan food one of the members who commented on this thread, who talked about preparing own vegan food in the kitchen. I personally buy vegan food that's made by Evolution Diet, but if that person mentioned earlier shares more info with us here, I will sure "steal" those recepies....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Directly from OP's website:

"I ignored all the negative opinions of so called "experts" on how dogs are _*carnivals*_, how they need to eat meat, and how vegan diet isn't natural to them."

Tells me all I need to know.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well let me tell you i was skeptical but when our thinnest dog (early kidney failure due to a medication he took) gained weight like never before and his coat is thick, shiny and healthy, i started believing the raw was a miracle for him


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Directly from OP's website:
> 
> "I ignored all the negative opinions of so called "experts" on how dogs are _*carnivals*_, how they need to eat meat, and how vegan diet isn't natural to them."
> 
> Tells me all I need to know.


I hadn't bothered to read the article until you pointed this out, and this bit made me absolutely cringe.

With all due respect, OP... I again have to recommend you do lots and lots of research on the domestic dog and its dietary needs...


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Directly from OP's website:
> 
> "I ignored all the negative opinions of so called "experts" on how dogs are _*carnivals*_, how they need to eat meat, and how vegan diet isn't natural to them."
> 
> Tells me all I need to know.


it should say carnivores....Thanks for helping me to notice the typo....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You're welcome. Now, to help you notice the error of vegan feeding a carnivore. 

Naaaah, I sense that will never happen.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

elzbieta
i dont think anyone here is going to deny you your experience but for the most part our experiences are the same without resorting to vegetarian diets

i messaged you btw!!


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> elzbieta
> i dont think anyone here is going to deny you your experience but for the most part our experiences are the same without resorting to vegetarian diets
> 
> i messaged you btw!!


I messaged you back. 

You know how I started this thread, btw? I googled vegan german shepherd and I saw a post on this website in which someone was asking about benefits of turning their friend's dog into a vegetarian, so I commented on it. 

Posting a reply made me register, so here I am.... Then I thought; "Oh, apparently there are people out there who do wonder about those kind of things...."


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> You're welcome. Now, to help you notice the error of vegan feeding a carnivore.
> 
> Naaaah, I sense that will never happen.


LOL, no hard feelings.... I like your sense of humor though (I'm not being sarcastic)


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Aimeanda said:


> It's not that it's inherently better. It's more desirable in a list of ingredients on a bag of dog food. The ingredients are listed in order of highest content by weight. Therefore, when just duck meat is listed the weight of the protein and the water it contains is included and thus places it higher on the list than its comparable meal. When duck meal is listed it is the concentrated protein with very little of the water in the original duck meat remaining.
> 
> When just duck meat is followed by a non-meat protein source like peas, it is very likely that much of the protein in the food is provided by the peas and not the duck meat.


Lol so much sneaking around. To read the dog food labels one needs an education of its own

Thank you, I get it now


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Wild Wolf said:


> I hadn't bothered to read the article until you pointed this out, and this bit made me absolutely cringe.
> 
> With all due respect, OP... I again have to recommend you do lots and lots of research on the domestic dog and its dietary needs...


With all due respect Wild Wolf, I grew up in country, (yep, I'm a country girl at heart despite what it may look like in the pictures on my blog...) I've been surrounded with animals (horses, cows, pigs, chickens, dogs and cats) till I was fifteen. 

Watching my dad working with animals had taught me how to interact with fur-lagged beings and how to have respect for them. 

I don't consider myself an expert on GSDs even though I've had my Nel for a decade, and as a child we had German Shepherd at home too.

I see you work with them on daily basis, and I almost envy you that, but I don't feel it makes me wrong to express out loud what I believe in.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> well let me tell you i was skeptical but when our thinnest dog (early kidney failure due to a medication he took) gained weight like never before and his coat is thick, shiny and healthy, i started believing the raw was a miracle for him


This is good to know. 

Perhaps the food industry will wake up eventually and they'll start being more careful about the ingredients they put in the dog food...

Meat or no meat, it really makes me smile whenever I see (or hear about) happy dogs. That's what it's all about!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> This is good to know.
> 
> Perhaps the food industry will wake up eventually and they'll start being more careful about the ingredients they put in the dog food...
> 
> Meat or no meat, it really makes me smile whenever I see (or hear about) happy dogs. That's what it's all about!


Lol then give your dog a piece of meat. Or a huge bone with lots of meat to scrape off. You will see a truly happy dog


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Elizbieta,
Hi, welcome to the forum. I know I am joinig this conversation late. I am not really interested in the vegan debate. I feed my dogs 100% raw meat, bones, raw eggs and organs and they love it and are thriving. They have beautiful coats and do not itch at all. My male did scratch non stop when he was on kibble though. Didn't matter what I tried. I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of where you live. Those views are gorgeous! I visited Hawaii about 25 years ago and will never forget the experience.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

robk said:


> Elizbieta,
> Hi, welcome to the forum. I know I am joinig this conversation late. I am not really interested in the vegan debate. I feed my dogs 100% raw meat, bones, raw eggs and organs and they love it and are thriving. They have beautiful coats and do not itch at all. My male did scratch non stop when he was on kibble though. Didn't matter what I tried. I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of where you live. Those views are gorgeous! I visited Hawaii about 25 years ago and will never forget the experience.


LOL, thanks for being honest... Living here does feel sometimes like being on vacation 365 days a year. 

Hopefully you'll visit this part of the world soon again. 

And thank you for the welcoming to the forum.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm just going to leave this here...


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

All dogs are different. We has issues with large, loose stool until I went with grain free. I think it was the corn in the other food bothering him. Puppy formula did not cause the problem just when we went to the adult which was lower protein. Started with Blue wilderness then found Taste of Wild.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm just going to leave this here...


And I'll just leave you with these images:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

SiegersMom said:


> All dogs are different. We has issues with large, loose stool until I went with grain free. I think it was the corn in the other food bothering him. Puppy formula did not cause the problem just when we went to the adult which was lower protein. Started with Blue wilderness then found Taste of Wild.


Seems like lots of people have been going through similar problems. It's so good to have internet and not having to rely on paid-advice only these days.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think we need a little more politeness here; some folks have been a bit rude.

I am terribly skeptical of putting dogs on a vegan diet and would love to see folks doing this sharing blood panels and veterinary exams over a several year period to see what they get instead of chasing them off. I would think issues would occur over a several year period, not just a short time.......I think just getting away from the a particular animal protein made the difference for this dog.

All we have learned about biology indicates feeding a non obligate carnivore (like a dog) a vegetarian diet contraindicated. On the other hand, dogs have lived with humans since before written history and ate whatever they scavenged from them. 

Plenty of hunting dogs in the south had a diet primarily of cornmeal mush. 

Health, longevity? I don't know.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

many cheaper dog foods are soy based 
i think someone brought that up
ime soy based diets gave them mushy stool and gas but they got acclimatized to it
i do think a dog would tolerate a vegetarian diet due to their scavenging nature
than a cat would because of cats unique protein needs

it is an interesting concept


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> I think we need a little more politeness here; some folks have been a bit rude.
> 
> I am terribly skeptical of putting dogs on a vegan diet and would love to see folks doing this sharing blood panels and veterinary exams over a several year period to see what they get instead of chasing them off. I would think issues would occur over a several year period, not just a short time.......I think just getting away from the a particular animal protein made the difference for this dog.
> 
> ...


Thank you Nancy, very good observation. Indeed, conversing here made me want to take Nel to vet for regular blood checks, to have this scientific proof everyone here seems to need so bad. 

As for some rude comments, I've learned in life (thanks to my battle with depression) that people almost always say hurtful things to others when they are hurting from within themselves. 

This understanding helps me not to get mad, at the same time though; I ain't a push over. Not anymore. I think people who say mean things, they need a hug :hug:


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> many cheaper dog foods are soy based
> i think someone brought that up
> ime soy based diets gave them mushy stool and gas but they got acclimatized to it
> i do think a dog would tolerate a vegetarian diet due to their scavenging nature
> ...


Indeed. I had no idea that the concept of a vegan dog is still that new! 

This actually inspires me to write more about Nel's experience with her new food, and in the future I may even include those scientific blood results from the lab, to put everyone at ease. Apparently seeing the obvious improvement in the pictures isn't enough... 

Good. This forum is giving me some more work to do...


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i couldnt see the original pics :shrug:

and keep in mind that just as many people have this same experience without doing the vegan thing for their dogs
merely switching to a better food or even adding salmon or flax oil can do much the same as to coat and skin texture and improvements

but it will be interesting to read your blog and see the transformation! are the original pics on there too?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> I think we need a little more politeness here; some folks have been a bit rude.
> 
> I am terribly skeptical of putting dogs on a vegan diet and would love to see folks doing this sharing blood panels and veterinary exams over a several year period to see what they get instead of chasing them off. I would think issues would occur over a several year period, not just a short time.......I think just getting away from the a particular animal protein made the difference for this dog.
> 
> ...


Cat is an obligate carnivore. Her cat is also a vegan. 
But i don't understand what obligate and non obligate means in terms of vegan diets. Supposedly it means that cats must have meat to survive and dogs can survive without it. 

Is that true? The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering which part of the cat makes it impossible for them to survive without meat and whether the dog is lacking that part. 

Sorry this is butchered. Hopefully you know what i'm asking

ETA I'm not sure who the rude comments were about. I'm not being rude in case it comes off like it.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> i couldnt see the original pics :shrug:
> 
> and keep in mind that just as many people have this same experience without doing the vegan thing for their dogs
> merely switching to a better food or even adding salmon or flax oil can do much the same as to coat and skin texture and improvements
> ...


Yes they are. Btw, I did try that oil thing in the past. Didn't work. My friends even suggested to rub my dog with some starch to relieve the itchiness. God only knows what I've had tried... 

The vegan food was God sent. 

Here, I'll add the pictures here for you so you don't have to scroll through the entire thread:


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

starch
ouch!
there are a ton of home remedies for everything these days it seems!
your dog is beautiful
i have not seen many coats as thick as hers!

our youngest pup is around 18mos now and had some allergy to an enviromental weed in our area
i took him to the vet who of course recommended prednisone although a low dose i told him i would rather not use it

i started giving him apple cider vinegar to rebalance his body
used it also topically (but this was a topical allergen) and then added flax and salmon and vit e to his regiment
it took about 3 mos but his fur is growing back well and he looks awesome
food is roughly the same but the supplements made the biggest difference i believe
i also have ordered an oil blend of hemp and e along with sardine and anchovy oils for him
i cant wait to try them as his fur right now looks fantastic


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

yes cats have to have real meat to survive 
they will die without taurine in their diets

What Exactly is an "Obligate Carnivore?" - Feline Nutrition
cat digestive system is entirely different than dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Does anyone in your vegan community question you about even owning a dog ?

Some hard core adherents won't take honey , rob the bee of its labours , won't take bee pollen, obviously no dairy , no egg , not even fish essence that you would have in , say, Worchestershire sauce . 
As a special request from a friend-dog owner-vegan , organizer and "mother" of the first Raw and Vegan festival in Toronto , I agreed to participate representing animal health . 
Even the organizer was surprised by the hostility . We rarely , barely spoke about food . There were political issues , a strong Animal Rights and PETA under current.
Questioning the concept of the rights to own or control a dog . They , meaning the roaming crowds throughout the day, seemed to think that dogs should be at liberty, govern their own lives and welfare, form their own families - and be free.
That happens in Brazil and Russia and some tropical islands have pot-dogs . Those are not happy stories.

If you are feeding vegan at least get the dog some plant based omega 3 . Get the dog and yourself some plant based (seaweed) DHA / EPA . At least provide quionoa 
or chia seed , some chlorella , some spirulina , SPROUTED grain with inhibiting phytic acids eliminated.
Get some colour , variety into the diet.

I can and do and have cooked vegan , maybe a few days here or there , just because something appeals to me , or when son visits for a week or two. Don't miss meat - but no egg, no butter, no cheese , I mean no cheese that is one of the pleasures .
The occasional faux burger made with crimini mushrooms and black beans , nutritional yeast , maybe with some ground seeds -- really good. 
I can do vegetarian, flexitarian. Some awesome books especially the desserts in Kaminsky's Vegan Desserts totally creative Vegan Desserts by Hannah Kaminsky,

Get it Ripe by Steele [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Get-It-Ripe-Cooking-Living/dp/1551522349[/ame]

Veganize This ! and vegetarian For the Love of Food by Denis Coter [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/For-The-Love-Food-Vegetarian/dp/000731275X[/ame] beautiful .

My shelves have several other titles. 

But for a dog , no . 
There has been a devolution. We have food sensitivities and itching and dogs not living to the best of their potential because there has been a 50 , 60 year experiment with feeding carnivores , canines, a grain diet . The effects have been accumulative and generational.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> starch
> ouch!
> there are a ton of home remedies for everything these days it seems!
> your dog is beautiful
> ...


On facebook I see those smart quotes that say: "A worried mother will work harder than 10 FBIs and she'll do a better research." or something like that. It shows you that as much as it's good to listen to experts, following our gut feeling and then doing some research on our own may be the best thing to do..

I'm glad your puppy is improving.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Does anyone in your vegan community question you about even owning a dog ?
> 
> Some hard core adherents won't take honey , rob the bee of its labours , won't take bee pollen, obviously no dairy , no egg , not even fish essence that you would have in , say, Worchestershire sauce .
> As a special request from a friend-dog owner-vegan , organizer and "mother" of the first Raw and Vegan festival in Toronto , I agreed to participate representing animal health .
> ...


Wow, some people can get extreme... I don't actually belong to any vegan community and besides my friend who stirred me towards veganism, everyone else around me is meat and potatoes lovers! 

But they don't mind me just like I don't mind them. And they seem to enjoy my cooking. 

Funny you mention quinoa, because just recently I started buying it. I'll take your suggestion and I'll start adding it to Nel's meals as well.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> yes cats have to have real meat to survive
> they will die without taurine in their diets
> 
> What Exactly is an "Obligate Carnivore?" - Feline Nutrition
> cat digestive system is entirely different than dogs


Well the op's cat is vegan and he's not alone. I just googled it and they have vegan food for cats and supposedly thousands of healthy cats. 
One website does suggest giving some cats meat sometimes 'if they're not ready to follow the many steps to make sure the cats are safely vegan'

They don't mention dying, just say that they have uti s

Also, supposedly there's synthetic non animal based taurine.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Well the op's cat is vegan and he's not alone. I just googled it and they have vegan food for cats and supposedly thousands of healthy cats.
> One website does suggest giving some cats meat sometimes 'if they're not ready to follow the many steps to make sure the cats are safely vegan'
> 
> They don't mention dying, just say that they have uti s
> ...


And if it's on the internet, it's gotta be true.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Well the op's cat is vegan and he's not alone. I just googled it and they have vegan food for cats and supposedly thousands of healthy cats.
> One website does suggest giving some cats meat sometimes 'if they're not ready to follow the many steps to make sure the cats are safely vegan'
> 
> They don't mention dying, just say that they have uti s
> ...


This is super interesting.. Following your steps I googled vegan dog food and I found this article explaining how actually a VET suggested that this woman switched her dog to a vegan diet. And amazingly the re-occurring ear infection went away! I'm loving this. 

Here's a link if anyone's interested: Vegan diet for dogs: A question of thriving vs. surviving - CNN.com


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

So I take it you're a vegan.

Define evolution. You're asking your imaginary friend to bless me to consider this ludicrous choice for my dogs. Which makes me doubt we're in the same ball park when talking about evolution.

Just to make sure I've got this straight, you have a dog from a puppy mill who was kept in a cage for 2 years. You know puppy mills breed on looks, not on health, right?

Then you feed her a bunch of lousy food.



ElzbietaP said:


> She was on every type of food I can think of, starting with expensive Science Diet years ago, to more affordable ones you can get anywhere. When I discovered the vegan food, that's when things started to change for better.


Conclusion, it's meat. It's not anything in the lousy kibble other than the meat. It's not the chicken meal, it's not the preservatives, it's not the food coloring, or any of the rendered fillings. It must be the meat because you tried them all. Which is statistically impossible but we won't go there.

Wow. 

I sincerely hope for your dog's sake, you stick around this page and learn something. Not post in every forum like some infomercial for Vegan dog food.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

ElzbietaP said:


> TI found this article explaining how actually a VET suggested that this woman switched her dog to a vegan diet. And amazingly the re-occurring ear infection went away!


Yes Vets are so well known for the 6 hours tops classroom time they get in nutrition. They spend more time listening to science diet reps who come in their office trying to push their pallets full of sawdust labeled dog food.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja is not part of this evolutionary change as she still stalks deer and not grasses. Sorry, couldn't resist this one.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

SunCzarina said:


> Yes Vets are so well known for the 6 hours tops classroom time they get in nutrition. They spend more time listening to science diet reps who come in their office trying to push their pallets full of sawdust labeled dog food.


Personally, I agree with you Jenn. I don't trust completely anyone I have to pay for advice...

I shared the link to the story since some people felt uncomfortable that I decided to ignored experts advice while choosing vegan food for Nel. 

It does make me feel good though knowing that I am not the single person in this world who supports vegan dog food.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Deja is not part of this evolutionary change as she still stalks deer and not grasses. Sorry, couldn't resist this one.


No problemo... I'm sure Deja have lots of fun chasing deers. Everyone evolves at their own speed, ain't nothing wrong with that. :toasting:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I could understand that when you have tried all kinds of meat proteins and the dog is still itching to switch him to a meat free diet to eliminate all meat protein and see how that would work. If, if, if, he improves, then you can gradually try meat again. This would be the only reason to use a vegetarian dog food for dogs. I use Natural Balance veg. food as part of my pet mousies' diet, which they do really well on.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> I could understand that when you have tried all kinds of meat proteins and the dog is still itching to switch him to a meat free diet to eliminate all meat protein and see how that would work. If, if, if, he improves, then you can gradually try meat again. This would be the only reason to use a vegetarian dog food for dogs. I use Natural Balance veg. food as part of my pet mousies' diet, which they do really well on.


She improved on her vegan food literally within days of eating it. I was amazed. I couldn't believe my own eyes. 

My neighbors started to complement her shiny fur too.

This has been going on for little over a year. In between this time, few times I gave her regular food (money reasons...) and literally within days the "hot flashes" returned. My husband still argued with me that it was not possible that the food was causing all this..

Some days I even doubted it myself. But after few times of switching her back to the vegan food and noticing the awful rush going away, almost in front of our eyes, I started to believe that I made the right decision.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Everyone evolves at their own speed, ain't nothing wrong with that. :toasting:


What do you mean by evolve? From what I understand an individual doesn't evolve but evolution occurs when individual genetic mutations develop new traits to a specie over successive generations.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

ElzbietaP said:


> And I'll just leave you with these images:




If you do not try to be what you're not, why make your dog be something that its not?


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I think, that people will believe what they _want _to believe. 

Personally I am seeing this true in the way my sister justifies her dogs behavior. There is always something new to justify the resource guarding, human guarding, space guarding her dog does. I believe its because she doesn't want to believe and admit to her dog needing training, that her dog isn't "perfect." I think if she realized her dog is just a dog, that she would realize that these behaviors are really just behaviors shaped and formed through genetics, unintentional/intentional shaping of the behavior, etc. That her dog just need training and its not a big deal. There is really no "perfect" dog. 

There are even people out there who tell a straight lie, and actually purely do believe in that lie they tell. A form of denial i think. I use to have a friend in college, i would see her do this. She would tell her boyfriend an untrue scenario (untrue because i was there and saw it), she would keep telling other people that same scenario- as untrue as it was, and eventually she started to believe it herself. 

After putting your heart into something-truly believing it and living it, and than turning around and realizing maybe its not 100% what you had thought or believed in- can be hard too. Sometimes accepting that would be harder than turning around and saying oh maybe i was wrong, i am a classic case for this! 

Although i would love for the whole human race to be vegetarian. I do believe that is not ever going to happen, and am willing to believe that a more likely better scenario would be that the human race gets meat sources from more humane places and has much less of it. 

I do believe dogs should eat meat. Cats even more so. I personally do not think its humane to take meat out of the diet of a dog or cat, because they need it for their bodies, on a biological manner-not enjoyment. But i would put this in the same category as a person making their dog obese (intentionally, as in no medical problems were part of it, sometimes thyroid or other diseases can make a dog overweight). Taking meat out of their diet, is an intentional choice of the owner. It doesn't make you a bad person or owner in my eyes- i just dont think its right. Just like the dogs who are overweight that come into work, their owners are like- as the dog wobbles along in the doorway "ohhhh i'm feeding him too much!" Good intentions led bad.. I had an old lady neighbor. She took on this black lab, she was in okay shape. That dog lived with her for a few years- became morbidly obese! She would give her whole hotdogs all the time, unlimited food, etc. That dog was given to another owner, and i saw pictures of the dog after it had passed years after it came to its owner, it looked in great shape! Not that the old lady was bad person, or had bad intentions, it wasn't right. 

Thats just my opinion!


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sagan said:


> What do you mean by evolve? From what I understand an individual doesn't evolve but evolution occurs when individual genetic mutations develop new traits to a specie over successive generations.


I had in mind a spiritual evolution... I should have specified that I guess. This' just me, but I think that the world is changing and that eventually (I don't know, maybe hundreds of years from now...) people won't consume meat anymore. 

I believe we are starting to experience health issues because of meat and dairy consumption. Personally, even though I'm 37, I've been suffering from adult acne for example. Vegan diet cleared that problem for me. It also helped me with overcoming my major depression...

I read a lot about people (and animals) suffering these days all kinds of problems. Basically, I think that we are starting to be given no choice but to adapt a new life style, such as veganism.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Nigel said:


> If you do not try to be what you're not, why make your dog be something that its not?


How do you know it wasn't her way of telling me she wants be be a vegan like her mama?? 

After all, it was her, not mine, skin issues that gave me no choice but to feed her with this new food.... 

K folks, gotta go to work, bills and the vegan food won't pay for itself...lol..will check later what's going on here tomorrow.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I sure hope miracle will happen and the dog gonna be fine living a vegan life . I know OP mean the best for her puppy. I hope she would try to work with the dog agAin feeding one type of meat at a time to find which meat her dog is ok with.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

It sounds like you weren't feeding a quality meat-based kibble before, so I wouldn't blame meat in general for issues like that. Science diet is not quality, it's just a bunch of corn.

To be honest, I think your dog is only doing well because it's being fed a vitamin cocktail overtop of some calories. I think if you tried a vegan diet for your dog that wasn't kibble based, but was produce you bought from the grocery store, you might find that your dog wouldn't do very well.

I would like to see results from a dog being on a raw meat diet and then on a raw vegan diet. No kibble.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> This is super interesting.. Following your steps I googled vegan dog food and I found this article explaining how actually a VET suggested that this woman switched her dog to a vegan diet. And amazingly the re-occurring ear infection went away! I'm loving this.
> 
> Here's a link if anyone's interested: Vegan diet for dogs: A question of thriving vs. surviving - CNN.com


Lol I posted it for a diff reason. I don't believe that cats and dogs should be vegan. I'm on the opposite side. I believe they don't need any vegetables at all just meat. 

I believe you will find all kinds of people saying all kinds of diff things. There's no way to prove or disprove her story.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sounds cultish to me , with an evangelical zeal. 

What ever you do make sure you get Vitamin B 12 , for yourself and the dog , so you don't end up with shaky hands and neuropathy , anaemia and depression.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

ElzbietaP said:


> How do you know it wasn't her way of telling me she wants be be a vegan like her mama??
> 
> After all, it was her, not mine, skin issues that gave me no choice but to feed her with this new food....
> 
> K folks, gotta go to work, bills and the vegan food won't pay for itself...lol..will check later what's going on here tomorrow.


I'm happy she has gotten relief due to the change in diet, I just think she could have achieved the same results with a better product like Acana, Fromm, Orijen, or perhaps trying raw. Your girl is a senior, I understand your excitement in the results, good for her, I hope she continues to thrive. 

Human society will continue to change, a dog is still a dog and will be 100, 1,000, or whatever years down the road and it will still be primarily a carnivore. I think there is nothing wrong with vegan for humans, a lot of people could benefit from it, I just don't think we should be projecting human ideals onto animals.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

So I've been strict vegetarian/vegan for 19 years, and am vegan now. My wife has been mostly vegan/strict vegetarian for 26 years. Our children are being raised vegan on mainly organic whole foods. When I first bought Nara, I also purchased books on turning dogs and cats vegan. I think I knew someone in the punk rock music scene that had a vegan dog and swore by it. I researched the diet and the particular dog foods mentioned and suggested/promoted in the books. After much internal debate, only wanting to do what's best for my dog, and also wanting to do what made the most sense, I decided against turning my dog vegan. I went with my gut and agreed that this is not a normal or natural diet for them. Something in my research just didn't sit right with leaning towards me "forcing" my dog to be vegan when they've never been vegan before in their long domesticated history. 

Nara did have issues with itching and scratching and biting and skin rashes. I did a lot of research into causes, like flea or food allergies. Many people pointed to chicken as a common issue for GSDs. We went poultry free (meals and treats included). Didn't seem to help. We tried fish only grain-free kibbles. Didn't help, and the dogs didn't seem to like the taste as much. This led me to look into raw diets. We had a holistic vet who promoted raw and helped to educate me (as did people on this forum), so once I was able to figure out how to feed raw cheaper than kibble, we made the permanent switch. The itching stopped and has not returned. It's been 4 years on raw now with no more rashes and I've never seen the dogs happier when they know it's meal time. They literally jump up and down on hind legs until I have them sit while I place their bowls in front of them, then release them to eat. 

I have no issues handling bloody meat, organs and bones, or any of the other "turn-offs" that some vegans link to not wanting to feed pets meat. I just don't eat meat myself based on my own freewill. Since feeding raw, we also supplement with fruits/veggies/table scraps (approved foods for dogs only of course), and the dogs can be picky. Certain dogs will eat certain fruits/veggies, while others will sniff and walk away. Not once have any of the dogs EVER walked away from raw meat. That was my proof right there, solidifying my decision to NOT turn them vegan.

This is my general input to everyone, based on extensive research and years of personal experience, and is not directed to the OP as an attack or criticism or anything negative.

"Hey, we got that P.M.A.!" (Bad Brains - "Attitude_"_ 1982 [PMA = Positive Mental Attitude])


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

ElzbietaP said:


> No problemo... I'm sure Deja have lots of fun chasing deers. Everyone evolves at their own speed, ain't nothing wrong with that. :toasting:


Are you implying that everyone (dog/GSD) is evolving towards a vegan diet? 

Sorry to jump in like this, but everyone is posting faster than I can read! Every time I get to the bottom of a page, there's another page!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm just going to leave this here...


Just wanted to say, I love The Princess Bride...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> yes cats have to have real meat to survive
> they will die without taurine in their diets
> 
> What Exactly is an "Obligate Carnivore?" - Feline Nutrition
> cat digestive system is entirely different than dogs


By the way, in my reply I wasn't arguing with you. I know that cats can't be vegans and they must have taurine and I feel that dogs shouldn't be vegans either though they might not die without it. 

What I'm saying is, since this is common knowledge then how can companies create vegan cat food? 
Can taurine really be created synthetically?


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Ok, OP, you keep talking about your dog, or all dogs, or just GSD's (I'm not sure what you're targeting) undergoing a spiritual evolution in reference to their eating meat versus being vegan. 

I simply cannot see this having any truth, whatsoever. Dogs don't decide what to eat based on a set of values that they've acquired via higher understanding of the world. That just doesn't happen. If it did, no one would ever have to house train their puppy, teach it not to bite people, keep it from escaping the house and getting run over, keep it from killing the neighbor's poodle (b/c it would thus know that to do so would create a moral dilemma)..... I'm not being entirely trite here. 

Your dog has absolutely NO clue that it's food doesn't have any meat in it. NONE. I must agree with the others that the improvement in her condition is simply a change in which proteins are in your dog's food, or the components involved in the processing. She's happier b/c she's happy. That's it. Not b/c of some spiritual awakening or evolution. 

All that being said, I am glad to see that you're willing to consider feeding her something more appropriate for her biological needs. I too have a dog with an allergy. He's currently recovering from it after being on a kibble diet for 6 weeks. I feed my dogs a raw meat/bone/organ diet and they do very well on it. No skin issues, healthy, no excessive water intake, their teeth look great, and they're excited about their meals. I'm sure you're seeing some of the same in your dog and we feed completely opposite.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> I had in mind a spiritual evolution... I should have specified that I guess. This' just me, but I think that the world is changing and that eventually (I don't know, maybe hundreds of years from now...) people won't consume meat anymore.
> 
> I believe we are starting to experience health issues because of meat and dairy consumption. Personally, even though I'm 37, I've been suffering from adult acne for example. Vegan diet cleared that problem for me. It also helped me with overcoming my major depression...
> 
> I read a lot about people (and animals) suffering these days all kinds of problems. Basically, I think that we are starting to be given no choice but to adapt a new life style, such as veganism.


Thanks, that clarifies the evolution comments.

Much like a lot of the diet posts on this site, if it works for your dog that is great, but it might not be for every dog. While some people agree that dogs need meat, others don't, we can all at least agree that dogs need food right? People are just as different, some people can thrive on a vegan diet, others can't, our bodies are different right?

I tried eating vegan, at my friends request (a vegan dietician). After a month I had significantly less energy. I was sleeping twice as long and getting less done a day. It was only until I reintroduced fish and red meat did I get my energy back. 

I wouldn't necessarily say one diet over the other makes you more or less 'spiritually' evolved (ie a better person). Whether it's eating an animal or plant, life eats life. We choose to anthropomorphize animals, why not plants? We might not understand it, but that doesn't mean plants aren't sentient and deserves the same rights as other organisms. We all have the right to draw our own line. I would just be careful drawing a line for another animal's diet unless you truly understand what could be at stake. 

Here's a harmless joke.
"How do you know someone is vegan?" "They'll tell you"


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm pretty simple and fact based. I use the science to determine the dogs intake. Their biome is happy with meat. Otoh, when my very asthmatic kids were struggling in allergy season, I fed a limited ingredient diet to help them. ( they had sub-clinical allergies to dairy during the year, but during their flares, it became prudent to not challenge the immune system more). So, limiting/modifying the type of proteins makes sense, but these mammals are omnivores/opportunists just like the coyotes out in the back 40


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Speaking as someone who is in the veterinary community, I would be behind a client who wanted to feed their dog raw, doing the appropriate research and balance between meat, bone and organ, and would encourage clients against doing vegan. I really am wondering if the fact that when you give raw, you give meat at its source without it being mushed down into a highly concentrated form, it makes for less issues with allergies due to less of an amount of the allergens and the general process of cooking not being involved. 

If we are going to take something from the human side, cooking does alter nutrient content and bioavailability of foods. I honestly don't like my veggies cooked, I prefer them raw. I love fresh fruit, but I am also finding that I like dried fruit too (certain kinds in any case and without added sugar). Different ways of processing or cooking different foods can cause different effects on the food. Granted I don't think I could handle eating meat raw personally. Steaks or burgers being medium cooked is about as low as I go. 

And as far as not cooked chicken... try packing to move on a weekend when you have salmonella poisoning. >< I highly don't recommend that one. Makes me suspicious of new chinese restaurants. 

One day I will have a decent sized freezer and the dogs will be on raw. Til then, I'm very careful with what they get, and my kids definitely are happy. 

But they also are happy to find carrion or kill the little mouse for food too, so... dogs will be dogs lol.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I would also be curious to see a dog on a raw vegan diet instead of a kibble with a ton of stuff added to it. Personally I think it's really wrong to feed an animal something they were not built to eat when they depend on us to provide for them and can't tell us what they want. 

I have a dog that has such severe environmental allergies that if she's outside more than 10 minutes or so or if I forget her medication her whole body breaks out in hives, her face and throat swell up like a balloon, she can't breathe and has to be rushed to the vet. I'm not kidding, I have pictures to prove it! My vet says Xena is one of the most sensitive dogs she's ever seen. To me this doesn't mean all dogs are starting to evolve to be completely indoor animals, it just means Xena was very unlucky. I hope that before you would tell people to put their dogs on vegan diets that you would at least try some of the other things that much more experienced people have tried and had the same results with, but was much more natural for the dogs.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

The OP wrote in one thread humans would stop eating meat in 100 years, doubtful. 

Also, if your dog could go to the kitchen, make his own food, what would he make, veggies or meat? Like my husband says 'I always eat what you put in front of me'.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How to get 3000 views on your first post on a dog forum 101

1. Say Vegan.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Colie CVT said:


> Makes me suspicious of new chinese restaurants.
> 
> .


Im Chinese and worked for years in chinese restaurant before, If the owner is ABC ( American born Chinese ) or at least speak english fluently you are fine. However you would want to avoid the ones that dont speak english at all ( Although the food is so much better IMHO ).. Its not completely their fault its just the living standard they know is different than here in USA. Where i come from there is no such thing as restaurant inspector. Maybe there are some in the high end area but they can be easily bought haha. I still go to those restaurant cause i love the food and its closer to the real chinese food also i never get sick from it anyways so who cares


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so far it seems that skin problems are evidence that the GSD is spiritually evolving to a higher plane.

whereas , since food and "being" are chemistry , the dog , or person , may be lacking in Omega 3, EPA / DHA , lipids , phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine.

When the brain has an adequate supply of these lipids mood, memory, nerve action , focus change for the better.
OMEGA 3 

This one is highly concentrated https://well.ca/products/om3_25966.html?gclid=CKqngP2h7cACFcZDMgodyC4A6g

Omega-3 Supplements for Depression | Psych Central News

Phosphatidylserine is sourced from sunflower seed (lecithin) and soybean , although much soybean now is GMO . Eggs - the yolk portion , beef liver.
You can buy lecithin . Chances are it will be from soy so do make sure that you get the non gmo form.
A sunflower seed form is available but much harder to find.

Phosphatidylcholine is found in beef heart , liver, milk, eggs , fish.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Can taurine really be created synthetically?


Taurine Synthesis and Production


Of course it can. It is a simple amino acid. I believe virtually all the taurine production in the world is done in China but so is the vitamin C production and most vitamins anymore.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Taurine Synthesis and Production
> 
> 
> Of course it can. It is a simple amino acid. I believe virtually all the taurine production in the world is done in China but so is the vitamin C production and most vitamins anymore.


Lol I don't understand what this means or what the page is saying but i will take your word for it. 
So then cats can be vegan. 

I don't agree. Just saying they won't die


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vegans use brewers yeast as a plant source for taurine


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ElzbietaP said:


> She improved on her vegan food literally within days of eating it. I was amazed. I couldn't believe my own eyes.
> 
> My neighbors started to complement her shiny fur too.
> 
> ...


I guess that means it works for your dog because of her allergies. It doesn't mean that the entire GSD breed is changing, just because your dog has improved. If dogs were to go vegan through evolution, their teeth would adjust as well and they may grow a few more stomachs.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sagan said:


> Thanks, that clarifies the evolution comments.
> 
> Much like a lot of the diet posts on this site, if it works for your dog that is great, but it might not be for every dog. While some people agree that dogs need meat, others don't, we can all at least agree that dogs need food right? People are just as different, some people can thrive on a vegan diet, others can't, our bodies are different right?
> 
> ...


I do believe you when you say you had no energy while trying to eat vegan. Reason for it? My husband tried to please me by becoming vegan too (lasted 3 months) and he complained that he was lacking energy. 

I don't understand though why many members here imply that I am pushing veganism onto others, including animals. My own husband, being a true Texan, devours himself on steaks and bacon, for god's sake....

Could it be that some people have an already established view on those who eat differently?? 

I don't judge others for eating meat, and at least in life (not on the internet) I am not being judged for the dietary choices I make.

People are actually very considerate, and they (without me asking) accommodate my food preferences when I'm being invited for dinner. 

Hence I assumed, I guess, that's how it is everywhere these days. We all accept each other for what we are. We live in peace this way. 

I do understand somewhat how the word vegan can still create a controversy. But all my life I did what I though I needed to do, and so I guess I am quite used to it. 

My post does NOT say, Hey people, switch your dog food to a vegan kind! It simply says, this is what I did, and those are the results of it...

I guess I may still forget that for some people hearing this can be quite shocking. Maybe that's normal. 

Also, reading the replies, I wanted to take some of the suggestions, and I wanted to start cook for Nel, and then I just remembered that Nel's stomach has always been very sensitive, and in the past, whenever I gave her cooked meals (meat and other kinds) she always ended up with diarrhea and vomiting.

This is what I have a hard time with understanding, since I describe here clearly Nel's skin problems, and her issues with food, how can anyone suggest that I have a choice other than giving her the vegan food that she is doing well on??? 

The spiritual evolution part: yeah, I see how people can be skeptical about such thing, but I DO believe that Nel is more than just a dog. She is my Angel, and my Spiritual teacher. She taught me (and continues to) more about myself than anyone else.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Well, you ARE pushing veganism on your dog. She has no choice but to eat the food you offer her. Do you think that if you offered her some hamburger or a chicken breast she'd turn her nose up and eat her vegan kibble instead? 

I don't have any problem with vegetarianism or veganism in general. My sister has been a vegetarian for over 30 years and has been slowly transitioning to eating 100% vegan. But people are not dogs, dogs are not people, and their dietary needs are different.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Well said Cassidy's Mom


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, you ARE pushing veganism on your dog. She has no choice but to eat the food you offer her. Do you think that if you offered her some hamburger or a chicken breast she'd turn her nose up and eat her vegan kibble instead?
> 
> I don't have any problem with vegetarianism or veganism in general. My sister has been a vegetarian for over 30 years and has been slowly transitioning to eating 100% vegan. But people are not dogs, dogs are not people, and their dietary needs are different.


While I agree that dogs should eat meat, the above can be said for anything we give our dogs. Maybe my dog doesn't like the meat cuts he gets and would rather eat a diff part. Filet mignon maybe. Or, he seems to love my food and if he had the choice he'd take that over his meat. 

Or someone else's dog doesn't like Purina and would like meat instead. We all force food on our dogs and in many instances they'd choose something else. 
My dog likes horse poop and cooked chicken bones. Goes to great lengths to get both. I don't think they can always be trusted to make the best decisions for themselves


ETA nothing anyone can say will make the op change her mind. Hopefully some day she comes to it on her own


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> While I agree that dogs should eat meat, the above can be said for anything we give our dogs. Maybe my dog doesn't like the meat cuts he gets and would rather eat a diff part. Filet mignon maybe. Or, he seems to love my food and if he had the choice he'd take that over his meat.
> 
> Or someone else's dog doesn't like Purina and would like meat instead. We all force food on our dogs and in many instances they'd choose something else.
> My dog likes horse poop and cooked chicken bones. Goes to great lengths to get both. I don't think they can always be trusted to make the best decisions for themselves
> ...


Thank you. My point exactly. Aren't we all pushing things on our fur-kids? 

As for the Cassydy's Mom comment, I don't think she read the whole thread, she probably just jumped in without reading first. 

Seems like some people would prefer watching their dogs scratching and biting themselves, plus vomiting all over, instead of removing meat from their diet... 

Wouldn't that be pushing our choice onto them as well? Leaving them with no choice but to live in discomfort ( I personally hate when I'm itching....) and continuing to feel sick simply because WE know BEST what's good for them, and what they need....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

To be honest, none of this makes sense to me. Do dogs have souls? I guess I don't know but I'm not sure we have souls either. That's a "belief" not a fact. A spiritual evolution is completely different than a physical evolution. A spiritual evolution is not going to affect the skin. That's physical.

The facts are dogs are carnivores. The facts are some dogs have allergies. Maybe like people who are allergic to gluten, there are some dogs that can't process meat. Who knows. It's possible. Probable? I don't know. But it's possible. After all, an immune disorder is your own body turning on its self.

So, in the end, the only thing I can say is what I've been saying all along. Get regular bloodwork done to monitor the kidneys and glucose levels. Because the facts are a dogs body is not designed to process carbohydrates.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Thank you. My point exactly. Aren't we all pushing things on our fur-kids?
> 
> As for the Cassydy's Mom comment, I don't think she read the whole thread, she probably just jumped in without reading first.
> 
> ...


I just mentioned it to be fair. I don't agree with vegan dogs and cats

Also, no one watches their dogs itch. They go to raw or novel protein foods. No dog is allergic to all meat as far as I know. I don't think most dogs are allergic to meat itself, it's the hormones and whatever else the meat is pumped with. 

So if you want to accuse people of letting their dogs suffer they can say that you took the easy way out instead of buying organic meat or figuring out which meat your dog is allergic to (IF it's meat at all. She could be allergic to all the grains and additives in dog food)


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> To be honest, none of this makes sense to me. Do dogs have souls? I guess I don't know but I'm not sure we have souls either. That's a "belief" not a fact. A spiritual evolution is completely different than a physical evolution. A spiritual evolution is not going to affect the skin. That's physical.
> 
> The facts are dogs are carnivores. The facts are some dogs have allergies. Maybe like people who are allergic to gluten, there are some dogs that can't process meat. Who knows. It's possible. Probable? I don't know. But it's possible. After all, an immune disorder is your own body turning on its self.
> 
> So, in the end, the only thing I can say is what I've been saying all along. Get regular bloodwork done to monitor the kidneys and glucose levels. Because the facts are a dogs body is not designed to process carbohydrates.


Nowhere in my post did I use a word fact, or scientific fact. Those are my speculations, we all have the right to those. 

The Soul thing: of course that is my personal belief, I assumed that was self-explanatory and it didn't need to be elaborated.

Yes, when it comes to Nel (and all animals for that matter) I don't see just a form of flesh in front of me. I see an incredibly beautiful, magical being, that is way more than what it appears to be. 

When I look at the animals I can "see" their Soul with my heart, not my eyes. I can feel the emotions they exhibit, same way I'm convinced they can feel my emotions. 

The "rainbow" of those emotions is what I believe the Soul stands for. They're beautiful and so expressive! Nel expresses to me her feelings without trying to hide them, without suppressing them, or without lying about it. That's why I love animals and being around them so much! That's why I feel that they are not inferior to us whatsoever. Their feelings are just as real as ours, and they're practically identical to ours. Except that they don't hide them from us, like we humans often do.....


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> I just mentioned it to be fair. I don't agree with vegan dogs and cats
> 
> Also, no one watches their dogs itch. They go to raw or novel protein foods. No dog is allergic to all meat as far as I know. I don't think most dogs are allergic to meat itself, it's the hormones and whatever else the meat is pumped with.
> 
> So if you want to accuse people of letting their dogs suffer they can say that you took the easy way out instead of buying organic meat or figuring out which meat your dog is allergic to (IF it's meat at all. She could be allergic to all the grains and additives in dog food)


As I mentioned earlier, Nel vomited the cooked meat before. (no preservatives there). 10 years of feeding Nel with different "regular" food, while visiting the vet periodically for her skin issues, - I'd say that is not an easy way out to finally decide to switch her to a vegan food...

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but sometimes you gotta wonder whether some people are willing to see the whole picture. 

I do respect your opinion that dogs need meat, and I don't argue with it. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, just like I am too. 

I did appreciate your comment about all of us really pushing our choices onto our dogs, when it comes to food, (thanks for being fair) 'cause to me that means - being able to see the whole picture, not just some fragments of it...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, you are entitled to it 
Some dog food is almost vegan anyway and I've read about dogs that live way past 10 on stuff like pedigree. My Co worker had one of those dogs. Another had a dog that lived to 18 on scraps. So anything is possible.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ElzbietaP said:


> Seems like some people would prefer watching their dogs scratching and biting themselves, plus vomiting all over, instead of removing meat from their diet...


No, that's a false premise, and people said nothing of the kind. Your assumption is that there are only two choices - eating meat or not eating meat, which is not the case. For all you know, changing her to a better quality of food, perhaps grain free, and with a unique protein source, would have accomplished the same thing. Or as others have suggested, forgo commercial food entirely and try homecooked or raw, where you control the ingredients and know exactly what she's eating. Removing meat entirely was not your only option.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Yes, you are entitled to it
> Some dog food is almost vegan anyway and I've read about dogs that live way past 10 on stuff like pedigree. My Co worker had one of those dogs. Another had a dog that lived to 18 on scraps. So anything is possible.


Thanks. I sure hope Nel will prove to be one of those dogs that thrives on this kind of food. Despite of what it may look like, i am actually pretty flexible. If I'd notice that she's not getting what she needs from this vegan food, I would not hesitate to switch her back to regular kind. 

I don't "hate" meat or those who consume it. Although I admit that it would make me happy to see less suffering around. 

As I mentioned in one of my replies my own husband devours himself on steaks and I don't love him less because of it... (Poor thing, did try to become vegan for 3 months which made him visit the bathroom more often than he's accustomed to...lol)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

light on the subject 
"
Dogs and cats process certain nutrients differently than people do. Here are two examples:
*Vitamins A and D:* Dogs and cats cannot make vitamin D in their skin, so it needs to be in their diet. And the vitamin D needs to be D3, which comes from animal sources, not D2, which comes from plant-based sources. “People and dogs can use D2 to some extent, but cats really need D3,” Heinze says.
*Taurine. *Dogs can make taurine if provided the right building blocks through dietary protein. Cats cannot make their own taurine at all, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet. Both species can suffer taurine deficiencies. " that was a quote from Cailin Heinze, VMD, a board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ElzbietaP said:


> Nowhere in my post did I use a word fact, or scientific fact. Those are my speculations, we all have the right to those.


I think you missed my point. I was kind of defending you. Not arguing with you. 

There are many dogs who are allergic to multiple meats. Fact. An allergy is an auto-immune response. So what if there are dogs that are allergic to all meats yet their body can thrive on vegetation? That's what I was saying. 

As a whole species, I would disagree with that. But there are always the few that it may be true for. Just monitor bloodwork for glucose because a dogs body is not designed to process carbs. The vets are seeing a large increase in diabetes in cats because of additional carbs. I'm not sure about dogs, I never asked.

I'm in engineering. My brain doesn't work in the metaphysical.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I think you missed my point. I was kind of defending you. Not arguing with you.
> 
> There are many dogs who are allergic to multiple meats. Fact. An allergy is an auto-immune response. So what if there are dogs that are allergic to all meats yet their body can thrive on vegetation? That's what I was saying.
> 
> ...


My apology. I think after reading many disapproving comments my brain went straight to a defensive mode.... :crazy:

Talking about brains: you're an engineer, I suck when it comes to numbers... They seem to jump in front of my eyes creating confusion in my brain cells, lol. But God somehow balanced this form of slight dyslexia for me by making me not as bad at writing, which I enjoy doing. 

And thank you for defending me. I do love when people "stick out their necks" for others.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

ElzbietaP said:


> Thanks. I sure hope Nel will prove to be one of those dogs that thrives on this kind of food. Despite of what it may look like, i am actually pretty flexible. If I'd notice that she's not getting what she needs from this vegan food, I would not hesitate to switch her back to regular kind.
> 
> I don't "hate" meat or those who consume it. Although I admit that it would make me happy to see less suffering around.
> 
> As I mentioned in one of my replies my own husband devours himself on steaks and I don't love him less because of it... (Poor thing, did try to become vegan for 3 months which made him visit the bathroom more often than he's accustomed to...lol)


Your dog is a senior and to be honest, if the vegan diet is working and your willing to monitor with testing, sticking with it may be the way to go. Playing the elimination of ingredients game, testing etc... Takes time and more money. While I think you could have solved her issues by switching to quality kibble or raw, why mess with things at this point? 

Curious though, what would you feed if you were to welcome a second dog into your home (assuming it did not have dietary issues)?


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I've been following this thread, both as a vegan and as a raw feeder. I keep seeing comments about cooked meat causing problems. I know from past experience that some people think homecooked meat meals are what we're talking about when we say "raw." I've never cooked for my dogs. They've been on raw for over 4 years now. Never had any issues with loose stools. They get the appropriate proportions of meat, organ and bone, and it's the uncooked bone and bone marrow which helps solidify the stool. The diet is called raw because all of the food is given in a raw, uncooked form. I just wanted to clarify, as it seems some people confuse a raw diet with a cooked meat diet as being one in the same. I see people mention raw, and then go on to say they tried cooking the meat and it gave the dogs diarrhea, and it sounds like they thought raw meant cooked.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

ElzbietaP said:


> That is really interesting. Thanks for sharing it. So the vegan thing did help your pup with overcoming the health issues. I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who's been having this positive experience with the vegan dog food.


I believe your dog could have overcome all her "allergy" problems as one of mine did a number of years ago. My vet recommended getting my hands on as much wild venison as possible (I live in Michigan where there is a regular hunting season), a protein source that would be as free of all additives and contaminants as possible. She said that it is the only meat (along with elk and moose) that they can rely on to clear a dog's system. Since there's not a year 'round supply of venison, I did have to slowly add a kibble in with the venison until I found one that harmonized with his individual system. It certainly wasn't Science Diet, which is not much better than the super market junk.

On the other hand, many of my dogs (especially my wolfdogs) have grazed out of my garden, choosy about what they liked and disliked. On the 'like' side have been tomatoes, broccoli, carrots, spinach, strawberries, blueberries and raspberries, to name a few. With the raspberries, they were very selective, sniffing out the ripe ones, and carefully avoiding the thorns. They digested all this with no problems.

Susan


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Your dog is a senior and to be honest, if the vegan diet is working and your willing to monitor with testing, sticking with it may be the way to go. Playing the elimination of ingredients game, testing etc... Takes time and more money. While I think you could have solved her issues by switching to quality kibble or raw, why mess with things at this point?
> 
> Curious though, what would you feed if you were to welcome a second dog into your home (assuming it did not have dietary issues)?


Honestly? I'm not planning on expending my family any time soon, but if that changed most likely he or she would be eating what Nel does, since it would be harder to keep an eye on them, to make sure Nel's not eating it. (I leave the food for my fur-kids accessible to them all day long, that's just how I like to do things)

On the other hand, my cats for example do eat from time to time the meat based food (they eat a lot and it gets hard to buy vegan food all the time for everyone...) I set their food high, this way Nel is not tempted or able to reach it.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> I believe your dog could have overcome all her "allergy" problems as one of mine did a number of years ago. My vet recommended getting my hands on as much wild venison as possible (I live in Michigan where there is a regular hunting season), a protein source that would be as free of all additives and contaminants as possible. She said that it is the only meat (along with elk and moose) that they can rely on to clear a dog's system. Since there's not a year 'round supply of venison, I did have to slowly add a kibble in with the venison until I found one that harmonized with his individual system. It certainly wasn't Science Diet, which is not much better than the super market junk.
> 
> On the other hand, many of my dogs (especially my wolfdogs) have grazed out of my garden, choosy about what they liked and disliked. On the 'like' side have been tomatoes, broccoli, carrots, spinach, strawberries, blueberries and raspberries, to name a few. With the raspberries, they were very selective, sniffing out the ripe ones, and carefully avoiding the thorns. They digested all this with no problems.
> 
> Susan


LOL, your dogs seem to like my favorite fruits and vegetables! I like your dogs a lot... I think we'd get along just fine. 

My Nel loves fresh coconuts. She eats those like they were made of bones or something.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I think you missed my point. I was kind of defending you. Not arguing with you.
> 
> There are many dogs who are allergic to multiple meats. Fact. An allergy is an auto-immune response. So what if there are dogs that are allergic to all meats yet their body can thrive on vegetation? That's what I was saying.
> 
> ...


 Even if one is not an engineer, it's hard to make the jump between food allergies and spiritual evolution. I'm sure there is no science to support this. Speculation is fun, though...


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

ElzbietaP said:


> Honestly? I'm not planning on expending my family any time soon, but if that changed most likely he or she would be eating what Nel does, since it would be harder to keep an eye on them, to make sure Nel's not eating it. (I leave the food for my fur-kids accessible to them all day long, that's just how I like to do things)
> 
> On the other hand, *my cats for example do eat from time to time the meat* based food (*they eat a lot and it gets hard to buy vegan food all the time for everyone..*.) I set their food high, this way Nel is not tempted or able to reach it.


 Did I read this correctly? Your cats are vegan too?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, you ARE pushing veganism on your dog. She has no choice but to eat the food you offer her. Do you think that if you offered her some hamburger or a chicken breast she'd turn her nose up and eat her vegan kibble instead?
> 
> I don't have any problem with vegetarianism or veganism in general. My sister has been a vegetarian for over 30 years and has been slowly transitioning to eating 100% vegan. *But people are not dogs, dogs are not people, and their dietary needs are different.*


this is the most perfect post here
people tend to humanize their dogs and yes we do 'force things on them" but for their own good

for instance spay or neuter or vaccines (all controversial here!) we do those for their own goods when the benefits of those things outweigh risks to the dogs health

in the case of insisting pets be vegan you are not putting their health above the risks of doing this 
that is a vegan diet can be vastly unhealthy to most pets

one should strive to find a meat based diet that agrees with the dog whether it is high quality kibble or a raw or b*a*r*f* style diet

and for cats it is even more critical
cats would _never _eat a soybean over a mouse or bird!

*respect that* and don't try to make your cat into a little human

set down a few chickpeas or a hunk of tofu and then set down a raw juicy steak or chicken breast 

if your dog eats the meat first *respect that* and work with it

that is true spirituality
respecting other species for themselves and not trying to make them into little versions of us!


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

carmspack said:


> light on the subject
> "
> Dogs and cats process certain nutrients differently than people do. Here are two examples:
> *Vitamins A and D:* Dogs and cats cannot make vitamin D in their skin, so it needs to be in their diet. And the vitamin D needs to be D3, which comes from animal sources, not D2, which comes from plant-based sources. “People and dogs can use D2 to some extent, but cats really need D3,” Heinze says.
> *Taurine. *Dogs can make taurine if provided the right building blocks through dietary protein. Cats cannot make their own taurine at all, so it is regarded as an essential amino acid in this species and must be present in adequate amounts in the diet. Both species can suffer taurine deficiencies. " that was a quote from Cailin Heinze, VMD, a board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine


Thanks for your posts they're both helpful and educational. "Some people [aren't] willing to see the whole picture."


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Did I read this correctly? Your cats are vegan too?


My cats are "part time" vegans. They love Nel's vegan food (especially the wet kind) so I buy those for them too (made especially for vegan cats) 

From time to time I give them the regular food as well. And I don't take away from 'em the occasional mouse, roach and whatever else they catch. 

Here are my munchkins (my 4 trouble-makers...):


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP " I'm not planning on expending my family any time soon, but if that changed most likely he or she would be eating what Nel does, since it would be harder to keep an eye on them, to make sure Nel's not eating it. (I leave the food for my fur-kids accessible to them all day long, that's just how I like to do things)"

A ha -- so it isn't out of necessity - so the hypothetical "other" dog , in the absence of problems , would have the vegan diet pushed on to him/her. 

does it take all day for the dog to finish the meal you put out?

Raw meat based diet is usually gone in seconds .

Keep going back to the picture of the kittens . The white cat doesn't look healthy . Even if it had a Siamese cat in the background it looks too lean , the coat lacks lustre . 

Cats have been used for hundreds of years in barns and grain storage areas for vermin control. The grains were always safe , the mice were not .


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm glad you pointed out the white cat, carmspack, I was thinking the same thing but thought maybe it was just me. They don't look as healthy to me as the dog does, something just seems off..


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sarah~ said:


> I'm glad you pointed out the white cat, carmspack, I was thinking the same thing but thought maybe it was just me. They don't look as healthy to me as the dog does, something just seems off..


Hmmm.. then perhaps I should remove the occasional meat based diet from their diet altogether then... 

To answer Carmen's comment: My Nel was always a slow eater, even when I fed her the regular food in the past. 

Anyway, I see that discussing health and nutrition is like discussing politics.... It can get heated and that ain't my cup of tea.  Goodnight everyone


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Sarah~ said:


> I'm glad you pointed out the white cat, carmspack, I was thinking the same thing but thought maybe it was just me. They don't look as healthy to me as the dog does, something just seems off..


Yoda, (the white kitty) is just waking up in that picture and he's still a kitten in that image. Hopefully this image will put ya'll at ease: (anyway, seriously, goodnight! )


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, I am glad that this article is not 1000 words because I wouldn't want to worry that people didn't click on it. This is in regards to cats, and there are so many great choices for them now - canned (I get Wellness big cans on Chewy.com for much less), pre-made raw, freeze-dried raw, and even some good kibble choices. And of course following Dr. Pierson's raw diet instructions. Here it is: Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health

And here is the article:


> *Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM explains the importance of protein in a cat's diet*
> Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.
> 
> *If you're new here, please consider subscribing to my feed. If you love cats, you'll enjoy the posts we place online every day. Thanks for visiting!*
> ...


 Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM explains the importance of protein in a cat's diet - Face Kitty


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Originally Posted by *Sarah~*  
_I'm glad you pointed out the white cat, carmspack, I was thinking the same thing but thought maybe it was just me. They don't look as healthy to me as the dog does, something just seems off.._

_------ the cats along the Venetian canals , communally fed with saucers of milk and meat scraps , the stray cats that fend for themselves catching mice in the field look better._
_The grey cat doesn't look contently sleeping -- looks drained , exhausted . The ears are too pale . The eyes are too squinty , first and second picture , light sensitivity?_

_General cat health tips " a slight covering of fat. There should be a well-defined hourglass waist when viewed from above and a very slight belly/fat pad should be visible. "_

_That little pad of belly fat on their undercarriage is pretty important ._

_even this Siamese kitten has that little omemtum







_

back to the OP who answered "Hmmm.. then perhaps I should remove the occasional meat based diet from their diet altogether then... "

Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health

please take a few minutes and read this http://www.catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elzbieta - what exactly are you feeding your cats? Cats have to have taurine. Their bodies can not make it so they get it from their food. Nature made the perfect prey for them as mice have more taurine, pound per pound, than any other animal.

If there is not enough taurine in that food you are feeding them, you will kill them. It's not anything to play around with. They need a higher amount of protein than dogs and people. A balanced calcium/phos ratio. Cats are just funny creatures.

Along with that, cats are showing an large increase in diabetes and kidney failure because of all the plant sources in cat food. I know I keep harping on this but it's not even my 'opinion' that the food you are feeding the cats is detrimental to them. There are studies and facts to back that up. 

I'm sending you a PM with a thread for another board that I had started when I put my cat on raw. There are a lot of articles and information in it that would benefit your cats and give you a better understanding of their nutritional requirements.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

even vegan DeGeneres who has a line of vegan dog food - appreciates the necessity of cats having meat as the base for their diet .
Halo, Purely for Pets ? Natural Cat Food | halopets.com

your comment "Hmmm.. then perhaps I should remove the occasional meat based diet from their diet altogether then... "
makes as much sense to the biology of the cat , as if I were to take the bucket of thawing turkey necks intended for the dogs , and feed it to my horses .

Cats by nature are a totally different biology . 
They are easily disturbed and catapulted into illness when there are deficiencies . Nature compensates for this potential high mortality rate by early fecundity . Sometimes kittens as early as 6 months , babies themselves having babies , see them at shelters.
One female 8 months old and her kittens were up for adoption just this Aug at a local rescue . Not unusual - owners are taken by surprise .
They tend to have big litters and can come into season almost immediately after kittens are weaned. Sheer numbers .

If you want to have your feline friends around for many years then you will have to understand and work with their biological needs .

the quote you had posted somewhere about Einstein and the imagination has to do with expansive critical thinking , Socratic education rather than didactic pedagogy.
Read -- Einstein in Berlin 

The book that you mentioned The World Peace Diet --
do you not see that the author is extreme , probably disapproving of the mere fact that you own a pet , a dog and cats . He says outright the pet trade . 
Right here the guru says "
Dear dogs, cats, horses, guinea pigs, rabbits, snakes, mice, turtles, birds, ferrets, sugar gliders, frogs, and so many others. We pray for you that you may have peace and joy in this precious life of yours.
Some of you want to live free of human interference, and some of you truly want to be part of your human family"

some of you want to live free of human interference !!!! that is exactly what I was met with at the Vegan fair -- dogs allowed to make their own decisions to live autonomous lives on the street . Animal liberation.

The World Peace Diet VegInspiration

you want to have soul and spirit evolve -- then the first thing at hand is to keep body and soul together


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Elzbieta - what exactly are you feeding your cats? Cats have to have taurine. Their bodies can not make it so they get it from their food. Nature made the perfect prey for them as mice have more taurine, pound per pound, than any other animal.
> 
> If there is not enough taurine in that food you are feeding them, you will kill them. It's not anything to play around with. They need a higher amount of protein than dogs and people. A balanced calcium/phos ratio. Cats are just funny creatures.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jax. I'm gonna read all that after work. I love learning new things. (btw, I view cats as extra-terrestrial beings too..lol...)

Where I live there is abundance of bugs so they do get to hunt for their proteins. Also, no long ago we had a small family of mouses in the attic..... My kitties are great hunters. 

The thing I noticed is that when I give them the vegan food more often (especially the wet kind) their fur starts to shine like Nel's. And it sheds less. So I think this Evolution Diet is really made out of some healthy ingredients. I'm really happy with it in general, the only think I could wish for is that it would cost less... Being not as popular as other foods on the market it's price is not as affordable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It has corn which is really high in O6. O6 is good for skin. However, like everything in life it has to be balanced. O6 causes inflammation. Not a bad thing in the correct amount because we need that when we are injured. To much causes chronic inflammation which leads to all sorts of diseases, including cancer! Yes, they are finding a link with chronic inflammation and many cancers. While you see improvements now, the long term effects may not be seen for years and then be something terminal and irreversible.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline health_Glasgow.pdf

Now, I feed my cat a raw diet but I took this study into consideration when designing his diet. I make sure nothing is ground (because ground has more surface area and taurine degrades when exposed to air thus lower taurine content). I make sure his primary meat is hearts which are the highest in taurine.

But this study also illustrates the long term affects that you will not see externally. Take that lesson and apply it to the diets they are eating.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm curious what the "regular" food is that the cats eat when they're not on the vegan food? Dry? Canned? With grains or grain free? Good quality, or not?

There was mention of "regular" food for the dog too - which foods were tried other than Science Diet?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

cassidys 
i am curious too what the op considers easy to find food for the dogs because there have been no brands named

to go from beneful or pedigree food straight to vegan formulas is skipping a whole bunch of great kibbles along the way


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So why is it OK to kill a plant and eat it, but not an animal?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> the only think I could wish for is that it would cost less.


see this to me seems like it is a rip off and just gliding on the coattails of what is trending (vegan)

because soy is way more plentiful and easier to process and cheaper to get than is true meat meal (human grade)
so is corn
so both used in a food should make that food way cheaper than any other meat-based foods

Evolution Diet Dog Food | Review and Rating

in fact it gets only two stars here 
they are using the cheapest most inferior products found for pet food!



> Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in some of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.


as jax said your animals fur may be shiny due to the corn in it but the corn is considered biologically inferior to other quality ingredients 



> The third ingredient is soybean meal, a by-product of soybean oil production more commonly found in farm animal feeds.
> Although soybean meal contains 48% protein, this ingredient would be expected to have a lower biological value than meat.
> And less costly plant-based products like this can notably boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.


you have to realize that just because it has protein that does not mean it is an appropriate protein for pets
which means the protein is not able to be fully used in their bodies

its like us going to mcdonalds every day for dinner
sure the calories are there but are they quality calories that are good for us?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

heart muscle is a high source of taurine , so are eyeballs, specifically the retina . A cat with a taurine deficiency will have retinal damage .


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I hope her animals catch some mice and grasshoppers to supplement their diets as it doesn't seem it will change.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - have you ever had your dog tested for food allergies? Obviously, the issue is food since she's better on the vegan food so just wondering if any testing was done to determine which.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vegan German Shepherd ~ life realized


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Vegan German Shepherd ~ life realized


Thank you! I was scared when I saw that even ONE person decided after reading from her that they thought their dog should be a vegan too


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Honestly, OP, none of your animals look healthy. I know everyone said your dog is beautiful and looks great. She is beautiful, but she's not looking too good IMO. Lots of loose fur in her coat which to me indicates a lot of shedding, but no one's brushing it out. I know she is a long-haired GS, but her coat only looks shiny in ONE pic. She may not be as itchy, and her coat may have filled in, but it doesn't look "healthy" and "lustrous" as you say it does. 
None of your cats look all that healthy- same thing with their coats. They look dull and bulky- like there's a lot of shedding, but it's all staying on their bodies and not being brushed out. They don't look shiny and full. And I agree with the others, your white cat looks sickly. Anemia, maybe? 

Perhaps their spirits are evolving well enough though? You never bothered to clarify if you thought your dog is actually evolved spiritually in that she now 'chooses' veganism b/c of enlightenment about the consumption of animals???

ETA- I'm not patient enough to add a pic b/c I have to go through eleventybillion steps to do so, but my cat eats kibble and canned inside, and rodents outside. His coat IS shiny, full, no excessive shedding, no hairball problems, etc. His coat doesn't stick together in slats when he bends his body, it stays smooth. If you notice, especially your white kitten, his coat sticks to itself and makes rows (slats) when he bends. This is a sign that he is NOT healthy.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

How is feeding vegan different from feeding purina, for example? 

I've thought about all this and while imo dogs and cats should eat meat, we all do our best for our animals based on our beliefs. 

Our beliefs are often diff from other people's. Look at the neutering threads, hw and vaccine threads and you will see that some people do things that others find almost abusive. 

Same with feeding. Everyone has their own idea on what dogs should eat. The most accepted is dog food, raw is still being attacked by most vets. 
She has her ideas on what's best for her animals. They might be wrong in your opinion but this is what she believes is the best for them. 

dogs survived over a hundred years on garbage. Do your best for your dogs and let others live. 
To me the thought of neutering and spaying dogs is repulsive. More than feeding vegan diets. I don't go around ridiculing those that do.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lala there are some kibbles that are predominantly grain .
Pedigree Pal is one of them . In their old ads they used to suggest feeding a canned Pedigree product in addition to the kibble. The kibble was meant as a base or foundation - add meat . 

Look Pedigree Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating

"
The first ingredient in this dog food is *corn*. Corn is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain. And aside from its energy content, this grain is of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
For this reason, we do not consider corn a preferred component in any dog food.
The second ingredient is *corn gluten meal*. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in some of the essential amino acids dogs need for life."

at end , the results are that this is a below average product .

The Evolution ingredients 
*Gourmet Pasta Flavor ingredients:* Whole grain ground wheat, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> OP - have you ever had your dog tested for food allergies? Obviously, the issue is food since she's better on the vegan food so just wondering if any testing was done to determine which.


Yes I have. The last time the vet tested her blood for everything including possible allergies, she scratched her head while telling me she didn't know what was causing Nel's skin issue. 

Then as usual, (we've been to vet with this issue regularly) she gave me antibiotics, some anti-fungal pills, and gave a shot to Nel to relieve the itchiness.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

lalachka said:


> How is feeding vegan different from feeding purina, for example?
> 
> I've thought about all this and while imo dogs and cats should eat meat, we all do our best for our animals based on our beliefs.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lalachka.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

carmspack said:


> even vegan DeGeneres who has a line of vegan dog food - appreciates the necessity of cats having meat as the base for their diet .
> Halo, Purely for Pets ? Natural Cat Food | halopets.com
> 
> your comment "Hmmm.. then perhaps I should remove the occasional meat based diet from their diet altogether then... "
> ...


Hey Carmen. I feel real bad that you had bad experiences with vegans. Honestly, that doesn't surprise me too much. What happens when someone becomes a vegan, they often go through some stages, one of them being anger and frustration. Then they get mad at the world for causing suffering. Some people never move pass that stage. 

I was lucky enough not to get stuck in that stage. I understand now that hating anything or anyone is NEVER the answer... SO I embrace everything the way it is. I ate meat for 35 years, so getting mad at others would have to mean that I would be getting mad at myself too...and at my husband who still eats meat, and at my family. 

I personally don't like staying mad for too long... 

But people have to understand as well that vegans are often criticized so I guess as a defense mechanism, they strike back. (not that it makes it right)

The author of The World Peace Diet, Doctor Will Tuttle, is a very kind men. My friend had the chance to meet him and interview him for our local TV, and she thinks highly of him as well. I really liked his book. 

I wasn't a vegan yet when I read it, and I didn't feel like he was pushy or judgmental or anything. 

I hope that even just conversing here with me shows you that not all vegans are super rigid, pushy people.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> So why is it OK to kill a plant and eat it, but not an animal?


Because animals are living beings, they have souls. Also they can suffer unlike plants who are just living. 



ElzbietaP said:


> *Yes I have. The last time the vet tested her blood for everything including possible allergies,* she scratched her head while telling me she didn't know what was causing Nel's skin issue.
> 
> Then as usual, (we've been to vet with this issue regularly) she gave me antibiotics, some anti-fungal pills, and gave a shot to Nel to relieve the itchiness.


When you get allergy testing, they have to get a lot of blood from your dog and send it out for testing, typically 5 red tops or 5 serume separator tubes. You can test for environmental or and food allergies. I would suggest you go into Vet, and ask if they can do this. It costs ~ $300-500, depends what company/vet you use. It should not be something your vet would be scratching her head at, i dont think..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who says plants don't have souls? 20 years ago, animals didn't have souls.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Actually let me rephrase.. Jax do you think animals have souls? 

If i believed plants had souls and can suffer, i wouldn't eat them either. However i do not believe they have souls or can suffer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Who says plants don't have souls? 20 years ago, animals didn't have souls.


I like the Vedic version from ancient India that says everything that's living is alive because it has a soul. This includes plants and animals. Once the soul leaves, the body dies, so the fact that something is alive is the supposed proof that the soul exists within that being (plant or animal or human) at that particular time. This is the main reason behind India and Hindus being mainly vegetarian. They are practical and understand that humans have to eat something to survive (don't even start with the breathatarian comments...haha!), so they choose the "lowest" lifeforms: plants. They still offer prayers of forgiveness before "sacrificing" that life, and thank it and thank their G/god/s for this sustenance, and to lift their karma for having to kill it. This also ties in with their belief of reincarnation. I practiced this religion as a monk for over 12 years, but I don't follow it any longer. It was a beautiful culture, and the reason why I'm a strict vegetarian/vegan to this day.

As for souls, just like G/god/s, there is no way to prove or disprove its existence, so I just let people believe what they want and I'll believe what I want. Whatever floats your boat, as they say. If it makes you happy to believe or disbelieve, than good for you, as long as you don't push your beliefs on me, because I certainly won't push mine on you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Exactly Counter.  Exactly.

But religion is not an allowed topic on the board so be better get back on topic.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Exactly Counter.  Exactly.
> 
> But religion is not an allowed topic on the board so be better get back on topic.


Yeah, and that's a good thing! I come here for the dogs, not to discuss spiritual beliefs or lack thereof.

Back on topic is right!!!

Edit: and the main reason I posted above (and then got sidetracked and completely forgot to mention) was to point out that the belief in animal and plant souls has existed for 5,000 years according to the Vedic literature/scriptures written in Sanskrit from ancient India.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP said "I hope that even just conversing here with me shows you that not all vegans are super rigid, pushy people. "

I'm not getting much of a sense in your having a conversation with anyone .


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

counter said:


> I like the Vedic version from ancient India that says everything that's living is alive because it has a soul. This includes plants and animals. Once the soul leaves, the body dies, so the fact that something is alive is the supposed proof that the soul exists within that being (plant or animal or human) at that particular time. This is the main reason behind India and Hindus being mainly vegetarian. They are practical and understand that humans have to eat something to survive (don't even start with the breathatarian comments...haha!), so they choose the "lowest" lifeforms: plants. They still offer prayers of forgiveness before "sacrificing" that life, and thank it and thank their G/god/s for this sustenance, and to lift their karma for having to kill it. This also ties in with their belief of reincarnation. I practiced this religion as a monk for over 12 years, but I don't follow it any longer. It was a beautiful culture, and the reason why I'm a strict vegetarian/vegan to this day.
> 
> As for souls, just like G/god/s, there is no way to prove or disprove its existence, so I just let people believe what they want and I'll believe what I want. Whatever floats your boat, as they say. If it makes you happy to believe or disbelieve, than good for you, as long as you don't push your beliefs on me, because I certainly won't push mine on you.


Counter, you just described how I view things and how I feel in general. The Karma thing; I personally believe that what I do with Nel, how I treat her etc. (and my cats too) is what returns to me from the Universe as good or bad Karma.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

VTGirlT said:


> Because animals are living beings, they have souls. Also they can suffer unlike plants who are just living.
> 
> 
> 
> When you get allergy testing, they have to get a lot of blood from your dog and send it out for testing, typically 5 red tops or 5 serume separator tubes. You can test for environmental or and food allergies. I would suggest you go into Vet, and ask if they can do this. It costs ~ $300-500, depends what company/vet you use. It should not be something your vet would be scratching her head at, i dont think..


She scratched her head after we came back to the hospital to see the results (it was actually animal hospital, not even regular vet office). That time her skin was so bad that she had lost fur on half of her tail (the naked tail was exposed) and all over her body she had numerous sores where fur was completely gone about fist size. The sores were covered with watery discharge and blood (blood from Nel's biting it and scratching it). It was so bad that she started to smell.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

ElzbietaP said:


> Counter, you just described how I view things and how I feel in general. The Karma thing; I personally believe that what I do with Nel, how I treat her etc. (and my cats too) is what returns to me from the Universe as good or bad Karma.


Yeah, that's cool. I figured that you did based on what else you've written about. I think we would get along on a lot of subjects. I was just in Hawaii in June and July, volunteering at the Hawaiian Humane Society when I wasn't at work on Hickam Air Force Base. I wrote about my experiences here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-hawaiian-humane-society-i-almost-cried.html

And I remember from my studies as a monk that, when investigating the meaning of the scriptures deeply, it is revealed that karma is the equivalent to collected sin. Karma is something you DON'T want. I remember learning that there is no such thing as good karma, only "bad" karma, like there is no such thing as good sin (at least not that I know of). I know the generic thought on karma is divided between good and bad; however, having collected NO karma is actually good, and collecting any karma is bad. Hope that helps!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am jumping onto this thread on behalf of the cats. As others have said, cats are obligate carnivores. Lack of taurine can cause blindness and insufficient meat protein can cause longterm problems with digestion and, eventually, the kidneys. Cats simply cannot properly break down all of those carbs. 

My brother is a vegan (and has been for more than 25 years) and most people in my family are super healthy, if not vegetarian, but none of us feed this diet to our animals. 

None of the ingredients in here are good for cats and the protein is FAR below what a cat needs in her/his daily diet, even if supplementing "occasionally" with live catches. Your cats may be doing ok now but this is not a sustainable diet and if you truly love them you will do your due diligence, study the ingredients in the food you're feeding (see below) and study the ingredients of a high quality, meat-based, grain-free food. 

Ingredients:

Gourmet Entrée Flavor - Filtered water sufficient for processing, peas, potatoes, brown rice, avocado, carrots, wheat germ, oat groats, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewer's dried yeast, DL-Methionine, L-Taurine, guar gum, sea kelp, DL-Alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A acetate, ergocalciferol (vitamin D2), choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganese oxide, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper oxide, manganese sulfate, riboflavin supplment (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenate, arachidonic acid

Vegetable Stew Flavor - Filtered water sufficient for processing, peas, potatoes, brown rice, carrots, wheat germ, oat groats, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewer's dried yeast, DL-Methionine, L-Taurine, L-Carnitine, guar gum, sea kelp, DL-Alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A acetate, ergocalciferol (vitamin D2), choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganese oxide, manganese sulfate, riboflavin supplment (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenate, arachidonic acid

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein – 8% minimum
Crude fat – 5% minimum
Crude fiber – 2% maximum
Moisture – 76% maximum


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

ElzbietaP said:


> Counter, you just described how I view things and how I feel in general. The Karma thing; I personally believe that what I do with Nel, how I treat her etc. (and my cats too) is what returns to me from the Universe as good or bad Karma.


What about the plants you eat? Those poor lives destined to suffer and be eaten.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I want to keep this on the topic of health of the living animals we are caretaking. 

Did you get a chance to read this? The original post has it copied and pasted. 

All science and vet written. 

Please do not risk your cats' health.

Your dog will be fine on a higher quality, fish based kibble without a ton of other ingredients in it, I would bet. Regardless, if my vet is scratching their head, I say who can you refer me to? https://www.acvd.org/tools/locator/locations.asp?state=HI



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Well, I am glad that this article is not 1000 words because I wouldn't want to worry that people didn't click on it. This is in regards to cats, and there are so many great choices for them now - canned (I get Wellness big cans on Chewy.com for much less), pre-made raw, freeze-dried raw, and even some good kibble choices. And of course following Dr. Pierson's raw diet instructions.
> 
> Here it is: Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health
> *
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

VTGirlT said:


> Actually let me rephrase.. Jax do you think animals have souls?
> 
> If i believed plants had souls and can suffer, i wouldn't eat them either. However i do not believe they have souls or can suffer.


I see you edited this after I responded the first time to completely change the context of your post.

So my response to this is...
What I believe isn't relevant to the conversation nor is it really anyone's business.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> I am jumping onto this thread on behalf of the cats. As others have said, cats are obligate carnivores. Lack of taurine can cause blindness and insufficient meat protein can cause longterm problems with digestion and, eventually, the kidneys. Cats simply cannot properly break down all of those carbs.
> 
> My brother is a vegan (and has been for more than 25 years) and most people in my family are super healthy, if not vegetarian, but none of us feed this diet to our animals.
> 
> ...


What Ruth says. If your cat lives on this food (because of the added taurine) you are running a HIGH risk of the cat developing diabetes and kidney failure because of the ingredients.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

counter said:


> Yeah, that's cool. I figured that you did based on what else you've written about. I think we would get along on a lot of subjects. I was just in Hawaii in June and July, volunteering at the Hawaiian Humane Society when I wasn't at work on Hickam Air Force Base. I wrote about my experiences here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-hawaiian-humane-society-i-almost-cried.html
> 
> And I remember from my studies as a monk that, when investigating the meaning of the scriptures deeply, it is revealed that karma is the equivalent to collected sin. Karma is something you DON'T want. I remember learning that there is no such thing as good karma, only "bad" karma, like there is no such thing as good sin (at least not that I know of). I know the generic thought on karma is divided between good and bad; however, having collected NO karma is actually good, and collecting any karma is bad. Hope that helps!


WOW, I READ YOUR POST; VERY, VERY SAD. I wish I would have signed up for this forum sooner, this way we would know each other when you were here, and we'd go to have a cup of coffee, or we could take Nel to the beach together since you were missing your dogs while at the dog beach. 

Are you ever planning coming back to Hawaii? If so, shoot me a quick message from my website, so I know you'll be here. I have a feeling we can have long talks while walking on that dog beach. 

And what state do you live in?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ElzbietaP said:


> On facebook I see those smart quotes that say: "A worried mother will work harder than 10 FBIs and she'll do a better research." or something like that. It shows you that as much as it's good to listen to experts, following our gut feeling and then doing some research on our own may be the best thing to do.


So what you are saying is that your personal "gut" feeling outweighs the actual science? Experts who have spent their lives studying, doing experiments, scientific trials, and coming up with hard data are not as good or reliable a source as your own "gut" and some Googling? You seem to be making decisions based on your heart, gut, and everything but your mind. 



ElzbietaP said:


> Seems like some people would prefer watching their dogs scratching and biting themselves, plus vomiting all over, instead of removing meat from their diet...


What makes you think every dog is scratching, biting, and vomiting? Just because YOUR dog is doing something, doesn't mean every dog is doing it. That is faulty logic.

And while we are talking about logic and critical thinking... Let's look at this logically. Your dog came from a puppy mill and was stuck in a cage until you got her. So she likely has poor genetics to start with.

Then you started feeding her crappy food. You don't say what "regular" food you were feeding her, but if you considered Science Diet to be the "best" food and you usually went cheaper, I'm guessing you were feeding some grocery store brand like Purina Dog Chow, Kibbles N Bits, Beneful, or other such garbage food, and your dog started itching and scratching.



ElzbietaP said:


> Then as usual, (we've been to vet with this issue regularly) she gave me antibiotics, some anti-fungal pills, and gave a shot to Nel to relieve the itchiness.


Aha. You forgot to mention that your dog has been getting "shots" for the itching. Most likely a long-acting prednisone shot, which of course will stop the itching and scratching. How long has she been getting these shots?

When you switched your dog to the vegan food, and the itching cleared up, it's natural to assume that the vegan diet did the trick. The truth is, you went from food with lots of allergens and crap in it, to a food that does not contain the same allergens and crap. It's quite possible that your dog is allergic to some type of meat, like chicken, so of course when that allergen is removed from her diet, she's going to get better.

Your flaw in logic is assuming that just because a vegan dog food worked for YOUR dog, that it is best for EVERY dog, and even for cats. 

The science proves that this is just not so. A dog can survive on a vegan diet, but cats cannot. Please, please, please give your cats something meat-based to eat. In some areas, feeding cats a vegan diet is tantamount to animal abuse, and the authorities can take your animals away if you don't provide a proper, species-appropriate diet for them.

You even concede that your husband cannot survive on a vegan diet, yet you think your cats can?

You've come into this forum extremely defensive. Did you come here to learn, or did you come here to preach? Everyone has been extremely nice to you despite your attitude. But if you continue to snark and nip at the people who take the time to talk to you, you're probably going to get banned at some point. I can sense your anger just bubbling up and seething over every time someone says something you don't agree with. This is not healthy for your mind, heart, gut, or soul.

I'm not even going to address whether animals are capable of "evolving" in spirit, but the idea that the GSD is "evolving" toward a vegan diet is something that we simply cannot predict. Sure, if dogs are fed vegan diets for thousands of eons, I bet they will evolve to better digest plant material. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is a better diet for them. 

Take for example the Giant Panda. It is a bear, evolved to eat everything including a good deal of meat (large gripping canine teeth). However, because its environment changed over millennia, the Panda had to adapt to a diet of what was most available--bamboo. Is bamboo a better diet for a bear? Well, the Panda is endangered. A bamboo-based diet is so poor that the Panda cannot put on enough fat to hibernate during the winter. Their cubs are born tiny and grow very slowly because panda milk is very thin and poor. So reproduction is difficult and slow. The species continues to hang on, but barely. 

Do we want to put that kind of environmental pressure on dogs, to change them into vegans? If so, don't expect to see physical changes in your lifetime, or in the lifetime of your children. It would take thousands, perhaps millions of years for dogs as a species to evolve into vegans, and I suspect a good many of them would not thrive.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> I am jumping onto this thread on behalf of the cats. As others have said, cats are obligate carnivores. Lack of taurine can cause blindness and insufficient meat protein can cause longterm problems with digestion and, eventually, the kidneys. Cats simply cannot properly break down all of those carbs.
> 
> My brother is a vegan (and has been for more than 25 years) and most people in my family are super healthy, if not vegetarian, but none of us feed this diet to our animals.
> 
> ...


When I was growing up we were very poor. Meat was often reserved for the "man of the house" - my father. Our cats were rarely given any meat therefor. Apart of some potatoes left overs they had to rely on their hunting skills. 

They were all healthy. We never had to take them to the vet. (we didn't even have one in the village)

And here I am feeding my German Shepherd and my cats a gourmet vegan food.... I think I'm doing pretty good.


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## ElzbietaP (Sep 16, 2014)

Freestep said:


> So what you are saying is that your personal "gut" feeling outweighs the actual science? Experts who have spent their lives studying, doing experiments, scientific trials, and coming up with hard data are not as good or reliable a source as your own "gut" and some Googling? You seem to be making decisions based on your heart, gut, and everything but your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I gotta run. Will get back to you on this one this evening.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> The sores were covered with watery discharge and blood (blood from Nel's biting it and scratching it). It was so bad that she started to smell.


there may be more to this than meets the eye
your dogs coat is very thick (and possibly overgrown or not brushed out and blown out) and could get moisture under it in a place like hawaii

i agree with the others
the white cat appears unhealthy and seems to have photopobia or 'fear of lights" which in a pet indicates that light hurts their eyes


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My emergency vet and I scanned through this whole thread this morning while waiting for our day crew to come on and relieve us...

You have gone from a little bit our there to completely insane, and some other descriptive words that would likely get me blocked and/or banned. 

Others have summed it up nicely. Glad your dog is doing well. But a switch from alpo to anything else will probably give you good results.

Cats do NOT do well. They REQUIRE taurine to survive. Which brings me to my main point - that company is full of liars and you began your thread by preaching like a brainwashed salesperson - which I still suspect you may be.

Cats REQUIRE taurine to survive, taurine is found in MEAT, that food contains taurine. Not vegan. Not vegetarian. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a cat to survive on either diet


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I find this puzzling .
Went to look at the ingredients of the Evolution Vegan cat food again . Why would you have this glue goo of corn gluten and oat groats and pea flour flavoured to resemble a cheese burger . How would the cat know or care ? Why would the owner find that appealing and a bonus for their pet.

Have a look at see the processes involved in creating corn gluten . 
Seitan is wheat gluten which is used in Vegan culinary to make mock-meat , beefooly .
The stuff is hyper cooked.

There is a difference between using Freestep's words "A dog can survive on a vegan diet" and thriving , being robust and hardy . Under what conditions and needs is this vegan dog food good for. Couch potato , or active working dog . Zen like environment to veg out in some blissful state or confronted with stimulation and stress , physical and emotional. 
I want my dogs to do more than survive . I want them to thrive . I want them shored up to be able to resist challenges which would topple a less well prepared dog into illness of some sort.
The body is in constant flux . That means that an individualized diet sensitive to the changes of need is preferred over a commercial mass appeal diet. That is one of the beauties of feeding raw . I can supply what the dog needs in the moment. That means I can supply the dog what it may need for an upcoming need. 
A female that is going to be bred will have a diet catering to her needs and to the needs of neonates that will be robust from the outset . The old trinity , genetics, nutrition and environment.
I don't know , we don't know what the OP's dog was like or what health challenges were addressed or poorly addressed. The thinning hair on the tail could have been an thyroid problem or obsessive self grooming .

I'm in agreement with Freestep , who said 
"I'm not even going to address whether animals are capable of "evolving" in spirit, but the idea that the GSD is "evolving" toward a vegan diet is something that we simply cannot predict"

I want to quote a study that I had but is on loan for research purposes for an upcoming book. 
My personal library is very well stocked .

In this study the author , a published vet , said that contrary to dogs evolving to be able to have a greater portion of grains and carbohydrates, never mind 'vegan' , dogs as a species , in our North American manner of feeding them with grain based filler kibbles , are at a tipping point . They can't deal with more . After so many generations from the introduction of hard tack or Spratts biscuits , the effects of poor nutrition , just like Pottenger's Cats (a study in Nutrition) , are showing with reduced immune health, sensitized and flawed digestion , behavioural problems .

You can't fight mother nature , she will clobber you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP still says quote .... I think I'm doing pretty good.  

See that is what I mean by not having a conversation . 

So many , myself included , have said the cats don't look healthy. They don't . One person said that NONE of your animals look healthy. I would be on board with that . 

The cats are squinty - that may indicate a retinal problem because they are not getting taurine . I know it is added as a synthetic lab made additive . I don't know whether the assimilation would be as efficient , if at all.

I also thought the hotspots were from moisture trapped under the thick dense long coat where undercoat may have been matted. Wet matted hair will become like boiled wool - impenetrable .

I don't know how this company can in good faith push a vegan diet , when as I said Vegan Ellen DeGeneres , who has a vegan dog food diet , will NOT provide a Feline equivalent . 

This company uses hot loaded language which is emotions based . They say they are the only company which does not use terrorized meat source.

here it is straight from the site "EVOLUTION is the Only Pet Grade Dog and Cat Food Company that does not use Terrorized, Sick Animal or Waste Part 

Earlier on I said that abattoirs can not be like what was described in Upton Sinclair's "Jungle" .

Even for yourself Elzbieta do some good research in to what you should be eating for the optimized vegan diet. Look in to Brendan Brazier 



 
Vega Formulator - Brendan Brazier


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> You have gone from a little bit our there to completely insane, and some other descriptive words that would likely get me blocked and/or banned.


 OP is not necessarily insane, she's just misled, somewhat passive-aggressive, and suffering from clinical depression, which can make a person seem insane. 

If a person wants to hurt themselves through improper diet, it's really their own business. But when they force an improper diet on creatures that have no say in the matter, that's tantamount to abuse, and it's why I decided to comment on this thread. I don't doubt the dog is doing better on a vegan diet than on Beneful, but I really worry about the poor kitties.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

even mercola which is considered by many to be the site for learning about the health of our pets agrees that it is dangerous for our pets to be vegan
Why a Vegan Diet Is NOT Recommended for Pets


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've thought long and hard about the ethics of feeding meat and eating meat. I've owned livestock and I recognize that sheep, chickens, cows each are individual beings with their own personalities, unique intelligence, and complex emotions. 

Even a pet frog I had could recognize different members of our family. 

My point being, killing an intelligent, living being to feed another is difficult for me to stomach, and yet I still eat meat and feed my dogs meat.

I do my best to buy meat that is humanely, locally raised, or wild and sustainable. Wild salmon, for example, is one of the best sources of sustainable, local meat. Scraps of moose from hunters is another great source of meat for my dogs. 

I do recognize I am taking a life, and I respect and honor the animals we are eating. But I also recognize my dogs for the domesticated predators they are, and, as an athlete, acknowledge that my body functions best with at least some meat protein in my diet. I'd love to have the land and ability to raise and slaughter my own meat animals- that way I could be 100% sure the animals were raised humanely- but that is not practical for me, or for the vast majority of people on this forum. 

Animals are killed through agriculture for grain crops and soy, too. Prairie chickens, mice, rabbits, deer. On a larger scale, bison, pronghorn, wolves, bears were displaced for agriculture. Living has a price. I believe we need to do our best to make our lives worth that price, but there is no way to avoid the fact that some animals will be killed so that we can eat. 

.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

ElzbietaP said:


> When I was growing up we were very poor. Meat was often reserved for the "man of the house" - my father. Our cats were rarely given any meat therefor. Apart of some potatoes left overs they had to rely on their hunting skills.
> 
> They were all healthy. We never had to take them to the vet. (we didn't even have one in the village)
> 
> And here I am feeding my German Shepherd and my cats a gourmet vegan food.... I think I'm doing pretty good.


You are actually not doing "pretty good." You are wasting your money for HIGHLY PROCESSED food that will harm your cats health in long run. Cats who eat a prey model diet (as your family cats did) were probably a lot healthier than cats fed highly processed foods filled with carbs. We have not done cats any favors by switching them to store-bought foods. Instead of spending the money on food that is not formulated for cats (but is formulated for people who don't understand cat nutrition) you should consider switching them to a raw diet. You obviously don't mind them eating raw meat so save yourself the money in vet bills and switch them over completely. What About Cats?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm just going to leave this here...


:laugh: this just made my day


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

To the OP. My dogs eat large amounts of meat, they also get table scraps of whatever I eat. I generally eat organic, but theres plenty of animal flesh in that organic diet. None of us have skin, GI tract, or other issues. Perfectly healthy.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

carmspack said:


> OP still says quote .... I think I'm doing pretty good.
> 
> See that is what I mean by not having a conversation .
> 
> ...


Everyone realizes that OP is stirring the pot to drive traffic to her blog and promote her book sales right?

She doesn't want a conversation (unless you agree with her or she finds something to cherry pick out of her post that might sounds like agreement taken out of context).

She has been quite clear in stating that she isn't listening to the experts and is following her heart not her mind. 

She wants and this forum has provided her a bully pulpit.

I'm just glad that the posts (she is ignoring) contain factual information upon which reasoned people can evaluate so that they can make informed decision with their minds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mister C said:


> Everyone realizes that OP is stirring the pot to drive traffic to her blog and promote her book sales right?


 I admit, her posts do have a trollish flavor, but for now I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Freestep said:


> I admit, her posts do have a trollish flavor, but for now I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.


I don't think she is a troll.

I would classify her as a proselytizer with a commercial edge. 

Her ability to stay focused on her viewpoints while ignoring the experiences, facts and logic presented by other posters is rather amazing. Maybe she should go into politics...


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I see you edited this after I responded the first time to completely change the context of your post.
> 
> So my response to this is...
> What I believe isn't relevant to the conversation nor is it really anyone's business.


lol I actually just rewrote the whole thing because i did not feel it was the right time/place for that post, thought i would send the question back to you, this was before i saw your one word response, so i didn't think it was a big deal anyways- it blended fine.  
It's okay.



Freestep said:


> OP is not necessarily insane, she's just misled, somewhat passive-aggressive, and suffering from clinical depression, which can make a person seem insane.
> 
> * If a person wants to hurt themselves through improper diet, it's really their own business. But when they force an improper diet on creatures that have no say in the matter, that's tantamount to abuse, and it's why I decided to comment on this thread. * I don't doubt the dog is doing better on a vegan diet than on Beneful, but I really worry about the poor kitties.


Well said!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Cats do NOT do well. They REQUIRE taurine to survive. Which brings me to my main point -* that company is full of liars and you began your thread by preaching like a brainwashed salesperson - which I still suspect you may be.*
> 
> Cats REQUIRE taurine to survive, taurine is found in MEAT, that food contains taurine. Not vegan. Not vegetarian. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a cat to survive on either diet


I suspect she is pushing SOMETHING, her blog, a commission she may be getting (pyramid scheme??), whatever. Her posts just have an air to them, y'know? Hypothetically, a person suffering from bipolar disorder (as my sister does) who speaks as she posts, is in a manic phase. 

Not going to say anything more.

Susan


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree, Susan. Some agenda is being pushed here, has a cult-ish undertone. Wasted my time on this one.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am waiting until Deja grows some long front teeth that keep on growing. When that time comes, I will stop giving her raw meat.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I agree, Susan. Some agenda is being pushed here, has a cult-ish undertone. Wasted my time on this one.


I have not yet met a vegan without an agenda.


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