# Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command?



## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ditka is doing well with his stay's and had a 2 minute down-stay the other night in class. I get him in his down and then issue the stay command...I repeat this stay command now and then when I think he is kicking around the idea of getting up in his head This is working well but by no means is it perfected and Ill keep working on it but I think now might be the time to build in a small change in how this is done.

Ideally Id like his down-stay and sit-stay to be done just by telling him down or sit...so that those commands you stay there until released and slowly start to remove needing a seperate stay command.

My question is, whats the best way to do this? Just slowly remove the stay command and slowly build a sit/down into meaning stay there by correcting if he moves? So sit....no stay command...treat if he stays sitting and over time make him go longer?

Thanks all, I hope my question makes sense...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

Gia is the only one that will do this for me (Tilden takes several 'stay' commands if i expect him to stay longer than 1 minute).

For her I transitioned her into hand signals. so it went from "Gia sit, good girl, Gia stay.... stay" to "Gia sit, good, stay (with clear/correct hand signal)" to "Gia sit (some sort of similar stay hand gesture because i was pretty sure she had it by then)" and now I just give her the command to sit and if she starts to get up I follow up with a "ah ah, stay".

She was much older than your girl when i adopted her and began training, so it may not be as simple. I wasn't doing treat rewards, just ball rewards after a good session. it wasn't until she was about 3 and mature before i felt 100% confident with her sit-stay no matter what was going on around her.

I'm working with Tilden on this now, for him he's better at a down-stay, so I'm using that to help him grasp the concept. No need to set him up to fail when I know he struggles with stay.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I try really hard not to repeat a command but I am not perfect. 

What about giving them the down (or stay) command and use a verbal correction when they THINK about breaking? With Tika eye contact can be detrimental to stays, however, if she starts to break a snap of the fingers is more influential to her and LOOKS like she was harshly corrected physically (which DOES NOT happen). Tika is a very biddable dog AND very handler sensitive.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Good ideas! Ditka responds well to his negative marker of "ah, ah" and I usually have some of those in there when trying to control a down-stay or a sit stay...I also give the hand marker like a stop motion.

Maybe Ill try making him sit or down and then use the "ah, ah" if he looks to break it combined with the stay hand signal...I think these combined over time will show him what Im looking for. I can always throw a stay out there as a reminder and totally phase it out over time.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Brady does it but I also have him trained with hand commands


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

You don't want to repeat a command as already stated, even with hand commands you don't want to repeat those, a hand command is just a replacement for the verbal command. You want to do a correction when the dog breaks the command. You want to use what works best (IMHO) for you and the dog. I have a variation of things I use depending on the dog. Cheyenne is very much attunded to me, so I can just give her "The Look" or a shake of my head. Some of the other dogs it is a snap of he fingers or AUT! You also need to be on top of the timing, say the dog is in a down, don't wait to give the correction until he is standing, give the command the second he/she starts to move to break the command.

I have informal commands and training/OB commands. Down and plazt are the training/OB command the informal is settle. I give my dogs some relax stuff, settle is in a down, but you can lay on your side, you can lay on you belly with your head between you paws. The down/Platz is an alert down, not ready to take a nap.

The only command I every repeat is the go potty command. With DeeDee it is a matter of wearing her down so to speak, she thinks she doesn't have to go, and I know she does.

Val


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeGood ideas! Ditka responds well to his negative marker of "ah, ah" and I usually have some of those in there when trying to control a down-stay or a sit stay...I also give the hand marker like a stop motion.
> 
> Maybe Ill try making him sit or down and then use the "ah, ah" if he looks to break it combined with the stay hand signal...I think these combined over time will show him what Im looking for. I can always throw a stay out there as a reminder and totally phase it out over time.


That would probably work and is basically how I trained Tika.


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## southerncharm (Feb 16, 2009)

All the commands I teach have an implied stay, meaning that if I give a sit or a down command, the dog is not to to break the command until I give the release word (my choice of phrase is 'ok') or another command. The stay command is only given when the dog is expected to keep that position for longer than 3 minutes. It's basically used to let the dog know that they can get comfortable, they'll be in that position for a while. 

As far as teaching your dog an implied stay with commands now, you'll need to give him a 'sit' or 'down' command, and as soon as he starts to move, give him a correction (can be verbal only, or if needed combined verbal & leash/collar correction). You'll want to start out working on this within leash range, then once he demonstrates he understands, you can start to move farther away. Remember to use calm praise when he is staying, so he gets positive feedback for doing the right thing. Practice these steps consistently and your dog should learn implied stay quite quickly.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I train it the way Rachel does. 

And if you're not 100% sure that your dog will remain in position once you get beyond leash length, you can tether your dog to something fixed, like a piece of furniture. If he does try to get up and walk toward you, the tether reminds him "oops! I'm not supposed to do that!" 

I don't like doing that (because he's already OUT of position before he's corrected) but it's an option.

Also, one thing I hope you realize is that your eyes will draw your dog toward you like a magnet. One of the biggest errors I see new students and puppy owners make is that they put their pup in a position, and they back up, staring at their dog. The dog can't resist, and comes toward them. Also the motion of backing away indicates to your dog that you're not really confident in his ability to stay in position. That makes him nervous and he's more inclined to move to you. 

So, if you're still working on the leash, put him in position, take a few steps back, and look away. Keep an eye on him from your peripheral vision. If he starts to move out of position, and you've caught it fast enough, then give the verbal correction (oops!) or if he's completely disregarded his position and stood up (ah-ah). Or as Val says, the "look" (if you have one) is good too.

But once you get beyond leash length, just give the command briskly, like you KNOW he will comply, and walk away confidently. Glance quickly over your shoulder to make sure he's not getting out of position. But avoid backing up slowly, staring at your dog!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Even more great tips, this place is so helpful GREAT point about the eye contact...when Ive been backing away Ive been STARING at him...Ill change this right away!

I also realize Ive been pretty awful when it comes to repeating commands so Ill work on that as well.

He has a release word, frei, and knows exactly what it means. His stay is pretty strong for a 5 month old...I hope to keep it as strong and make it stronger with these implied stays on sits and downs. At a Schutzhund club I visited I was amazed when a dog was put in a down with one command and he literally stayed there without moving a muscle for such a long time!

Thanks again everyone, such great answers to my question!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

you're right - great tips. now that i have a chance to "do it right" with Tilden (Gia's almost 10) i'm going to start working on an implied stay (i like that idea alot), correct it with "ah ah", and use stay when i need him in place for an extended amount of time.

he's actually been pretty good lately with open doors and open gates since i've been doing alot of cleaning, dumping, and constant trips thru the house, yard and garage... so lately "stay" has been meaning - just stay in the yard whatever position you're in.

also, while we're on the topic - from a "stay" i use "come" (or the next command) as their release. when i give the command to "wait", i use "ok". for example, in the back of my truck - both know that "stay" means i'm going to open the back for them, but they arent getting out... if i say "wait" they know that very shortly (whether i'm leashing them, etc) i'm going to give the "ok" for them to jump out. or, when i leash gia first, i tell her to "wait" until i'm done leashing tilden.

i've also found that its good practice not to save the praise for the end, because its too tempting for them to get caught in the moment and release themselves. so praise them "good job" "good boy" "YES" or treats all throughout while keeping them in position. when i say "YAY!!!" thats Tildens cue that our training session is over and he leaps onto me with open arms like a bear and proceeds to run in circles around me smiling.

ha, all this talk... i'm itching to go work with him now


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

3K9Mom alluded to this but I don't see it explictly stated. I'll preface it with this: How often and how far do you naturally walk backwards?

As you want to be doing things as naturally as possilbe with or without your dog, you should as quickly as possible be walking away from your dog, not backing up. If you are taking more than two steps away, then walk away and then turn around if that is the position you want to be in. This also goes to having confidence in that your dog will stay where you put him. two steps, three, four, eventually across the room or field you can build up to it.

This also goes to having confidence in that your dog will stay where you put him. In addition to some of the errors 3K9mom mentioned about new dog owners, another I've seen are the folks who walk hesitantly and much slower that they normally would-as if they expect the dog to break and want to be ready to jump back there to grab a leash or something. Also an issue when they have a "return to your dog" component to the exercise. The dog is uncomfortabe because the handler is showing uncertainty if not with the eyes then certainly their body motion. If you start with the two,three,four steps I think you will have the confidence to leave and know your dog will remain in that stay after a few exercises--and your dog will feed off of your confidence.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*



> Quote:
> i've also found that its good practice not to save the praise for the end, because its too tempting for them to get caught in the moment and release themselves.


YES!

Praise is not a release!

Also, we practice words that sound like our release word. 

Mine is (boring enough) "release" So I tell them, "Police!" "Replay!" "Relay!" Yes! I want them to LISTEN to the whole word. 

And I'll shout them happily so they listen to the word, not just my tone of voice. I also test them with "ok" a lot because they've been in classes and seen that most of dogs get released on "ok." So my kids try to self-release on that. (Who says dogs don't learn by watching?)

I jump up and down, skip around, sing their names, run to them, hop over them, run away. And they're supposed to sit or lie there (Camper looks at me with a thoroughly bored look on his face, like "you're embarrassing me").

Why do I do this? I had a dog that would self-release a second too early, every time. My trainer and I couldn't figure it out, until she watched very carefully. Turns out the dog was releasing as I would tip my head to call her. I wasn't facing her most of the time. But I would just tip my head just a bit, and that was the sign to her that the release was coming. 

Dog was too darn smart.









Now, I dance around like a fool when I train in-place commands. But they don't know when the release is coming anymore!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

Samuel reminds me of one more tip:

If you do have to return to your dog, don't physically touch him. Use his leash to guide him back into position. TOUCH is REWARDING. If you reward your dog when you return to him, well, you're training him NOT to stay in place. 

You should not touch fur. Ideally, you should not talk to your dog (Attention is rewarding). You should return calmly. Often just standing there will be enough for your dog to go back into his sit or down on his own. If he needs guidance, use the leash. Use few if any words. That's why I like ah-ah, or oops. They're not "wordy." You won't be inclined to say "Camper, ah-ah." But you might be inclined to say "Camper. No. Sit. No. Campie. I said Sit." -- And Camper is loving the attention.









Then walk away confidently. This time he'll do it!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

sooooo, we're just back from the park...



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> ha, all this talk... i'm itching to go work with him now


...where i'm very proud to report that Tildens obedience was perfect!









one more tip that came to mind for the OP, is to practice calling your dog to you from a sit or down, _as well as_ some runs where you return to the dog before releasing them. i noticed today that after so many routine "down"_walk away_turn around_"come" Tilden would motion to start getting up as soon as i turned around because he was anticipating the recall. 3k9mom -- you reminded me of this when you said mentioned your 'second too early' release dog.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*



> Quote:
> Tildens obedience was perfect!


Way to go (or rather, NOT go) Tilden!!!!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

I always maintain heavy eye contact with my dogs, they don't have a problem breaking the down or sit command. 


Another thing I do when we get to the proofing stage is to work different things, like walking around, moving my arms, talking, play with stuff like hulla-hoop. I create a lot of distraction for my dogs even if we are working where no one else is around.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

*Re: Stay in a down or a sit without a stay command*

Even more great stuff! Thanks all! 

We started some work on this last night and this morning...normally when his bowl is put on the ground I first have him sit and then give his stay command...and repeat the command with a stop hand sign a few times before his release word.

So in starting to change to an implied sit last night I started by sitting him and say stay once this time with a hand signal...then use just the hand signal now and then to remind him. When he leaned forward he got an "ah-ah" and sat back down.

Then before work this morning he got a sit, the bowl was placed, no verbal command and just one hand command at the start. He did well with this too. I was even able to step away a decent distance and also moved my legs up and down to make sure he wouldnt be distracted.

So next up will be sit and then only corrections. Ill also start this with his other training and not just with his bowls....just felt this would be a good place to start.

Good stuff.


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