# Choosing a puppy early on



## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

So a close friend of mine's GSD just had her litter last night. Getting a second dog has been discussed with my fiancée ad I and we have been looking for the right puppy for a few months. We currently have a 2 year old male Jack Russell mix who is playfully dominant (pack leader amongst dogs) but is well socialized and well trained. My fiancée travels for long periods of time and as a pervious large breed owner (labs and wolf hybrids), I would love to have a big dog again if only to make myself feel safer when I'm home alone or on walks at night. 

This litter that was just born is purebred GSD but does not have any AKC registration or anything like that. I'm ok with a regular dog and don't need and show lines. I like the idea of getting to see the litter dynamics early on (basically from birth) and that way we would able to chose a more submissive dog since my JRT is a dominant dog and would maintain that role. I just have a few questions when it comes to choosing a puppy from this litter.

1) Male or Female? My preference would be female only because I know if there is ever any instance of dog/dog aggression it is between same sex. 

2) My JRT is my ESA and is very well behaved in public (pet-friendly restaurants, stores and airports) so I am also wondering what things I can practice with a young puppy to better assure they'll be "bomb-proof". I will have access to the litter throughout their development so once we have a better idea of which puppy we want I would love to be able to start early. Any ideas of what I can do ie exposure to loud noises, car rides, etc? I also asked the owner of the litter if she would be willing to do the bio-sensor program.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Have you met the sire and dam of this litter? The best way to assure that your puppy will be "bomb-proof" is if the parents are bomb-proof. In GSDs nerve strength is primarily genetic and remedial puppy education can only do so much.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Totally agree. Nerve strength is genetic. Not only do you want to meet the parents, you want to see them off of the owner's property, if you really want a sense of temperament. Weak dogs can seem much stronger on home turf.

Why are the parents not AKC registered?

One of the issues with GSDs to be concerned about is that a weak nerved dog isn't necessarily a shy dog. Too often, that fear translates into unpredictable and dangerous aggression.

You're dealing with a completely unknown quantity in a large dog prone to numerous health and temperament problems. It may all work out great. Or not.

Around here, we try to guide people toward responsible breeders with proven breeding stock of sound temperament and with appropriate health clearances not only on the parents, but generations back.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

I have met both the parents. They were just bought off Craigslist as a family pet (I would never buy a puppy that way but that's what they did) so that is why they don't have papers. This current litter was not on purpose, the sire is now fixed. 

For all I know they may be slightly mixed breed (Craigslist breeding VS responsible breeding) but they are primarily GSD forsure. As a current owner of a rescued mutt the lineage and pure blood lines is not an issue. 

When it comes to the parents, they honestly have behavioral issues but since I know the friend I unfortunately believe that to be caused by poor exercise and little/no training. 

I understand genetics of the parents can play into nerve strength (glad I know now that's what I was referring to) but as we would otherwise be rescuing a mutt I wouldn't have that info either. I'm purely looking at this as if I am getting GSD from a non-breeder and just want to know what I can do to 1)choose the right puppy for my family and pack 2)make sure I raise the puppy to be the best dog it can be. I have descent experience with dog training but this will be my first large high-energy breed and I want to set this puppy up right.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Hope I'm making sense lol


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Look into Puppy Culture. Order the DVD and get started right away with it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I assume by ESA you mean Emotionally Support Animal? If so, how do you guarantee that your JRT can do his job when you have another dog? Since you consider him dominant, his focus can go to the new pup.
If your friend hadn't had this litter, would you have looked for a GSD pup anyways? Or is this an irresistible temptation?
Sounds like a random breeding (so far) so you can expect anything in a pup, even when the parents seem OK. Genetics are weird and unpredictable in this case. How about health clearances in both parents? It can work or not, since we don't know anything either (yet).


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Yes he is an ESA. He "works" and is vested only when I fly so having a second dog distract him while he works would no be an issue as the second dog would not fly with us. When we take him to dinners (pet friendly patios) he is there as a pet. I consider him more dominant because in all play situations such as 1on1 or at the dog park he is usually the alpha but it is never in an aggressive way. 

We were looking for a puppy at the rescue I originally got my JRT mix from so we were looking at all breeds/mixes but to make myself feel a little safer I was looking at larger breed mixes. The fact that is little is a GSD litter is just convenient. 

Definitely a random breeding. So health/genetic info from the parents. I believe the sire the have better lineage as he looks more like your typical GSD while the dam is a little on the long side. I am looking at this as if I was adopting a puppy from a rescue, which you normally don't get to interact with the litter over the course of their development or spend quality time choosing the best puppy for your family. Since I am lucky enough to have that chance with this litter I just want to know which gender would be best for my family and what I can do before the 8 week mark to create a more desensitized? puppy


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

It's kind of like playing roulette, you may get a good dog or you may not. You may get a dog with no health problems and you may get one with health problems. It's the main reason so many on here will tell you we went to a breeder who did health tests, know the pedigree of their dogs (the temperaments, strengths and weaknesses of the dogs behind the sire and dam), title their dogs. 


Your JRT may or may not get along with your German Shepherd regardless of sex. JRTs are very high drive and prey driven, just like a German Shepherd. He's gotten along with friends' dogs, but this one will be in his house, with his toys, with his person. Or your German Shepherd as it grows may decide she doesn't want to share. 


Personally I think your best bet is going to someone who is a reputable breeder who can help to pick out the pup that is best for you and what you want.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Unfortunately going to a breeder is not something we're looking for. We'll probably just go the rescue route like we did with our current dog. Just thought I'd try and get some advice from people who know the breed better 


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Advice 


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

brhebert said:


> I have met both the parents. They were just bought off Craigslist as a family pet (I would never buy a puppy that way but that's what they did) so that is why they don't have papers. This current litter was not on purpose, the sire is now fixed.
> 
> For all I know they may be slightly mixed breed (Craigslist breeding VS responsible breeding) but they are primarily GSD forsure. As a current owner of a rescued mutt the lineage and pure blood lines is not an issue.
> 
> ...


What are the 'behavioral issues '?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

brhebert said:


> I have met both the parents. They were just bought off Craigslist as a family pet (I would never buy a puppy that way but that's what they did) so that is why they don't have papers. This current litter was not on purpose, the sire is now fixed.
> 
> For all I know they may be slightly mixed breed (Craigslist breeding VS responsible breeding) but they are primarily GSD forsure. As a current owner of a rescued mutt the lineage and pure blood lines is not an issue.
> 
> ...


I completely overlooked this post. If you want a GSD, get a good one from a great breeder with healthy, stable dogs and not one of these; they are no different from the average CL pets. The only difference is that this breeder(anyone who produces a litter is a breeder to me) is your friend.The pups will be adorable but you are taking a huge risk for problems. Too bad they couldn't prevent the mating.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

The female is pretty good. The male who is younger jumps, mouths, and destruction chews. I attribute this to them not being properly exercised mentally or physically and not getting proper structure growing up. They just have run of the house. This is also why I believe I'd be able to avoid the majority of these issue with a proper upbringing. My little jack Russell can do some damage (he likes chewing my undergarments ) if he doesn't get property exercised so I know how important it is. 


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I completely overlooked this post. If you want a GSD, get a good one from a great breeder with healthy, stable dogs and not one of these; they are no different from the average CL pets. The only difference is that this breeder(anyone who produces a litter is a breeder to me) is your friend.The pups will be adorable but you are taking a huge risk for problems. Too bad they couldn't prevent the mating.




I understand that everyone here is mainly looking for a well bred, papered GSD but that's not the case for me. If getting a puppy from this litter wasn't an option, we'd be adopting a puppy from a rescue where genetics and temperament aren't know either. So how is this situation different? Would you tell everyone who gets a rescue puppy that they're taking a huge risk with that dog because they don't know the parents? 


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Honestly, in this situation, it isn't any different than going to a shelter. As long as you know that there very well could be some health and temperament issues down the road... Is your friend charging you for the puppy? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable paying for a puppy from an oops litter, but maybe that is just me.

In this case, since their male has now been fixed, it doesn't seem like they are going to do this again to make a quick buck. I think it's terrible that they allowed a litter to be born at all, but it's done, so what can you do? 

If you decide to take a puppy from this litter, I strongly suggest you research GSDs while you wait for the puppy to be old enough to come home with you. Best to be prepared! I would probably get a female. As for picking a puppy, pick one that is confident and curious. Pick one that wants to be around people. Pick one that doesn't freak out when they are separated from their littermates. I wouldn't pick the most crazy puppy, but also I wouldn't pick one that seems shy or unwilling to investigate new things. You probably won't be able to tell much about their personalities until 5-6 weeks, and I wouldn't make a final pick until they were at least 7 weeks. If they all seem shy or seem to lack confidence, I would not take one. You are setting yourself up for a lifetime of management if that is the case. Genetic fear is not fun.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

brhebert said:


> I understand that everyone here is mainly looking for a well bred, papered GSD but that's not the case for me. If getting a puppy from this litter wasn't an option, we'd be adopting a puppy from a rescue where genetics and temperament aren't know either. So how is this situation different? Would you tell everyone who gets a rescue puppy that they're taking a huge risk with that dog because they don't know the parents?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There are so many that come on here because they are having behavioral or health problems. No one wants to see that happen to you and that's why you're getting the answers you're getting. It sounds like you're fairly confident you're going to get one of your friends. If so, all I can say is to pick one of the middle of the road ones, not the leader and not the quiet shy one. Read older threads on here from The Puppy Place and Behavior and Training.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Honestly, in this situation, it isn't any different than going to a shelter. As long as you know that there very well could be some health and temperament issues down the road... Is your friend charging you for the puppy? I personally wouldn't feel comfortable paying for a puppy from an oops litter, but maybe that is just me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for the helpful answer =) just like with my little rescue mutt, he very well have some health issues down the road but until then I do everything possible to keep him healthy. He definitely eats better than most people! Lol

From what I was told they made multiple appointments to spay the female (who they owned first) but she was always in heat during the appointment and then a week before the make was fixed he mounted her before they could stop him =\ they defiantly weren't looking to use it to make profit. The only way I'll be comfortable paying is if they just add up the medical costs and expense of the actual puppies (vet bills, whelping box, deworming) and divided it by the number of puppies. 

I definitely want to do my research which is why I came here. I know that working breeds are a lot of work and I know many people get one without realizing all the work that goes into developing a great dog. That's also why I asked about early desensitizing. Duke is nowhere near perfect but I am proud that I can take him in public and people are impressed at how well he behaves. I want to make sure my GSD is the same way


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

In my opinion the main thing to avoid is any sign of fear or timidity. You want a curious pup who engages with the world, one who isn't afraid of new stimuli like loud noises or new surfaces. The one in the middle of the pack hierarchy.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Yeah I've been doing a lot of research about litter dynamics and about finding the dog with the right energy level 


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds like you're doing all you can! 

Look, I work in rescue. I've been a foster home with a German Shepherd Rescue for fifteen years and honestly I would never tell someone to adopt a German Shepherd puppy from a rescue. You're getting a complete unknown. With an adult rescue you can evaluate the dog in front of you, and with a breeder puppy you have the parents and the lineage and a knowledgeable breeder. With a mixed breed puppy from the shelter you have a decent chance because it won't be a genetic bottleneck. Mutts tend to be solid dogs because of the outcross. But the GSD breed at this point is such a genetic bottleneck that is so riddled with health issues and weak nerves and fear aggression that I'd much rather have a shelter mutt puppy than a GSD puppy whose breeding was not carefully planned.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

Nothing is set in stone about getting a puppy from this litter but I do want to spend the next 2 months doing all the preparing and research I can in case that's the route we go. I definitely want a puppy because unfortunately 90% of friends who have rescued adult dogs of all breeds have behavior issues that I am not comfortable with. I like the idea of "starting from scratch"


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

brhebert said:


> I understand that everyone here is mainly looking for a well bred, papered GSD but that's not the case for me. If getting a puppy from this litter wasn't an option, we'd be adopting a puppy from a rescue where genetics and temperament aren't know either. So how is this situation different? Would you tell everyone who gets a rescue puppy that they're taking a huge risk with that dog because they don't know the parents?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think that an adult rescue dog is less of a risk than a backyard bred young pup. At least with the adult dog, you can see how his body structure is, his coat, teeth, gaits etc. and his basic temperament. There will be surprises of course but with a pup, so many physical problems can occur as well, or not; it is a chance you take. With a GSD pup especially, I think you always take a risk, no matter the pedigrees. There are so many health issues in the breed that can even show up generations later. If you do decide to get a pup from this litter, I would have it under insurance asap for at least two years. Is your friend knowledgeable about socializing a litter? You could help her since you seem to have done a lot of learning about it already and that way earn your pup :wink2:


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

brhebert said:


> The female is pretty good. The male who is younger jumps, mouths, and destruction chews. I attribute this to them not being properly exercised mentally or physically and not getting proper structure growing up. They just have run of the house. This is also why I believe I'd be able to avoid the majority of these issue with a proper upbringing. My little jack Russell can do some damage (he likes chewing my undergarments ) if he doesn't get property exercised so I know how important it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those are training issues. How were they while you were there? Were they friendly? Curious? Relatively unperturbed? Shy? Protective? Those are the things I would be more concerned with. If they're friendly, curious, and seem to have no problem with your presence around their puppies, then I'd say you have a good chance of getting a puppy with a solid temperament.


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## brhebert (Feb 17, 2017)

They are both very friendly. The male just jumps and is very mouthy which I know is a training issue. They never had structure. The dam and sire have been socialized with other dogs are routinely in a yard with a few other small dogs so I know they don't have any aggression issues and knowing the puppies will be around small breeds is extremely important in my case. As both parents are still relatively young we don't know any long term health issues but as of now they haven't had any


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

I think the puppies are here and they have to live somewhere. Sounds like you are giving this a lot of thought and you have been warned about what you could be getting yourself into. I say could, because there is also a chance you end up with the "perfect dog". I took on a 6 mo old pup with known issues! I will work to help alleviate his behavioral problems the best that I can and then I will learn to manage what I cannot change. 

As another poster mentioned lots of us show up here because we have problems or are unsure of what we are doing. This means that this forum is a wealth of information. Pop in here everyday and see what naughty things other peoples pups are up too and suggestions for how to deal with the situation or what could have been done to prevent it in the first place. That way behaviorally, you will be well equipped to handle your pup.

The potential medical/genetically driven ailments are best met with the same mindset I think. I was reading some on here a few days ago and it is heartbreaking what some of these owner and pups go through. It is largely a reflection of the genetic bottleneck referred to by another poster. That means all breeding's are a crap shoot, good breeders just skew the odds in their favor.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

brhebert said:


> I understand that everyone here is mainly looking for a well bred, papered GSD but that's not the case for me. If getting a puppy from this litter wasn't an option, we'd be adopting a puppy from a rescue where genetics and temperament aren't know either. So how is this situation different? Would you tell everyone who gets a rescue puppy that they're taking a huge risk with that dog because they don't know the parents?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok - not going to berate you or lecture you - I am a breeder and I totally believe in the integrity of proper breeding....BUT in real life too many accidents and BYB dogs are born .....


So let's just get past the ideals and focus on what you are going to do.

1. You have a male dog. Get a female. No matter what breed, what drive levels. No matter if from a good breeder or the pound. First thing is that if you are going to have 2 dogs, your best bet is one of each sex. 


2. When the pups are 5 or 6 weeks, take each female out and away from the rest of the litter - next door, across the street - just to a new place....put the puppy down and walk a few steps away. Study the behavior....is the puppy happy or frightened? Will it explore? Follow you?? This is going to show the basic level of nerve strength. You want a pup who is confident and happy and not frightened....a little hesitation is natural, but the pup should quickly recover and seek your company.

3. Make sure the owners will be worming the pups as soon as they can eat ~ about 4 weeks old....they should get a dose of strongid or panacur 2 days in a row, wait 10 days and repeat and then again....and that they are fed a quality puppy food as they are weaned....

These are just basics to make sure your pup is healthy when you get her, and hopefully solid nerved. With this litter - the true issues of hips, elbows etc are a total crap shoot, but you do under stand that already.

Good luck.

Lee


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

OP, here is my question: what will you do with this puppy if it grows into a dog that does not meet your needs? You need/want a puppy that will grow up into a dog that will at least tolerate your current dog, and based on what you write of your lifestyle, you want/need a dog that can tolerate being neutral in the community. 

You can do everything "right" as far as socializing and training and still end up with a dog that will not tolerate your current dog and will not be comfortable out in the community in the way you need the dog to be. 

I spent ten years crating and rotating my GSD because he grew into a dog that did not like other dogs, and I was experienced with the breed. I wish I had spent some time thinking about what the plan would be if he turned out to be a dog that did not fit my desires/requirements. I cannot tell you how stressful managing him was. 

My advice would be to find a dog that is old enough to already be showing adult personality that meets your specific needs, or find a breeder that routinely produces puppies that grow into dogs that meet your needs. 
Sheilah


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