# Fear Aggressive Dog with Confident Stance?



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I have already posted about my FA German Shepherd, Harley, but I just found some pictures of dogs with different types of aggression. I know that I can't base my dog's aggression type off of a picture, but it just made me curious. Harley IS FA (fearful of people), but when people come into our house, he looks exactly like picture *A. *(only if he is at a distance) and barks like crazy. If a person starts to corner him into a room (I know that should't be happening, but my brother's friends don't listen) he looks like picture *B.*. When he looks like picture *A. *though, he calms down right after I tell him to be quiet, which is an amazing thing, and also means that he has gained some confidence and can be more comfortable around the person. Now, he rarely looks like picture *B. *anymore, but he still always takes the stance of picture *A. *as soon as he knows someone is in our yard/house. But he always quickly calms down and acts as if they aren't even there. I think this is fantastic, but is this a good thing? I would think it is, because he is more confident.
How To Handle Fear and Fear Aggression in Dogs | The Balanced Canine
A.

B.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Fearful dogs often try to put on a really good show and that is why a dog can be fear aggressive or be reacting from a place of insecurity but look like the top picture. Often they do this from behind a window or fence or if they are on leash. There is no risk of them actually having to move forward because of the barrier that prevents them (leash or fence) so they may put on a good show. Also at home fearful dogs will usually be more forward because they are more confident on their own turf and they have practised the behaviour there a lot.

There are usually telling signs that it is fear based like the dog may if given the chance not actually move forward or the pitch of the bark can tell a lot. It is different with every dog so you just have to get lots of experience reading body language.

I have seen a dog lunging and barking at the end of the leash and when the leash broke the dog ran forward at my dog and I only to put on the brakes about 3 feet away from us. It then proceeded to circle and growl but would not have come in for a bite unless I had turned my back on it. This particular dog just lacked socialization with other dogs and was insecure around dogs because of this. So she looked very forwardly aggressive but it was more a product of being on leash and the frustration that made her appear that way.

So you have to look at the whole picture to tell if the dog is coming from a place of insecurity.

Based on the information given I would still say your dog is insecure so I can't really say that it is a good thing he is still showing aggressive signals. It is good he calms down quickly and listens but I would not want him to become confident in his aggression at the home if he has shown signs of being fearful of friends and guests to the point you described above. It just sounds like his aggression is not coming from a good state of mind.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the difference between an arroused dog that is confident and an arroused dog that is reacting is much more subtle at a distance. Think about it. The reason the dog barks, lunges, sticks his hair up, etc, is to tell the intruder to back up and leave, stay away, I am big and bad and will eat you. They have to look intimidating. If they looked like picture B, an animal intruder might go over and kill the weakling. Hard to say, but nature can be pretty cruel. 

So an animal who is fearful will look pretty much like a dog in all out aggression. 

Hair sticking up is usually fear. 

It really depends on whether the lips are puckered forward or drawn back, and other subtler signs.

Submissive is not necessarily bad, and not necessarily good. Extreme submissiveness like in photo B is not what we want to see in our dogs. 

I really do not want to see them seriously arroused either, unless there is a reasonable threat. I would be more interested in a dog who is excited, there's someone at the door, kool, who is he, can I see him, smell him, etc. And when the non-threatening person comes in, for the dog to be calm-attentive: Ok, Susie said you're ok to be in here, but don't try to scratch my butt and we'll get along just fine.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Clyde said:


> Fearful dogs often try to put on a really good show and that is why a dog can be fear aggressive or be reacting from a place of insecurity but look like the top picture. Often they do this from behind a window or fence or if they are on leash. There is no risk of them actually having to move forward because of the barrier that prevents them (leash or fence) so they may put on a good show. Also at home fearful dogs will usually be more forward because they are more confident on their own turf and they have practised the behaviour there a lot.
> 
> There are usually telling signs that it is fear based like the dog may if given the chance not actually move forward or the pitch of the bark can tell a lot. It is different with every dog so you just have to get lots of experience reading body language.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know that he is trying to look intimidating, so that people don't come near him. And he is only like this at home, if we are on a walk, he just backs away. Like you said, he is comfortable at home so he feels that he can scare the people away. I have noticed his different barks. This is a very deep bark, so I'm guessing this is just to make him sound bigger and meaner. I understand. He shouldn't be too confident, because his aggression might lead to lunging or biting? I'm just glad he is more comfortable around people. When I act calm, he becomes calm also.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think the difference between an arroused dog that is confident and an arroused dog that is reacting is much more subtle at a distance. Think about it. The reason the dog barks, lunges, sticks his hair up, etc, is to tell the intruder to back up and leave, stay away, I am big and bad and will eat you. They have to look intimidating. If they looked like picture B, an animal intruder might go over and kill the weakling. Hard to say, but nature can be pretty cruel.
> 
> So an animal who is fearful will look pretty much like a dog in all out aggression.
> 
> ...


 See, Harley is kind of neutral/submissive in nature. With other dogs, he is very indifferent about them, and if they try to pick a fight with him, he just stands there ignoring them (he doesn't exactly look submissive, just like he doesn't care and he's not scared), He only barks at other dogs that are near his territory. Well what I mean is that I'm glad to see that he quickly collects himself and calms down. He does seem vicious at first, and is pretty scared, but he calms down right after I tell him to be quiet, because he knows that when I do that, there is nothing to be afraid of.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What Clyde said...exactly. That is my experience with my FA dogs. They take that stance, as if on full alert, and then go berserk or cower or take flight.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

If he was not fearful and insecure, he wouldn't see a need to puff up in the first place. This is more of a bully-type; a dog that would scare others off first to save itself. Confront (corner), and the dog wilts. I have one. He should be more confident but also be taught that things he perceives as threats are not threats at all. This is where things like LAT, BAT, and clicker training shine.  Sounds like he is indeed getting better! Be vigilant and learn to read his tiniest signals. You have to learn when to distract with a command or get him out of a situation before he overloads or overthinks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've dealt with many "aggressive" dogs in animal control. 
There's a difference although I'm probably picking up on more subtle signs.
One of the worst was a Rottie who'd been left behind when people were moving. It was hot, he was chained and couldn't reach water, so I took him for safekeeping. 

Of course, it's a Rottie. Big barking psycho. So I had to get out my rabies (catch) pole and get him on that. But it didn't work right at first, I forget what went wrong but I was in the pen and the dog went by me. Tangled itself up across my thigh with it's chain. 
I had a chain link bruise for weeks-you could see the individual links!

But the best part? The dog managed to get it's chain around me and I was there stuck, and the dog was leaned all the way out to the end of it's chain, away from me, avoiding looking at me completely! "If I don't see you, you're not there!"

Classic fear response. Bark and sound big and bad, but when the feces makes contact with the fan, the dog was really just hoping I'd go away and stop scaring it!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

DianaM said:


> If he was not fearful and insecure, he wouldn't see a need to puff up in the first place. This is more of a bully-type; a dog that would scare others off first to save itself. Confront (corner), and the dog wilts. I have one. He should be more confident but also be taught that things he perceives as threats are not threats at all. This is where things like LAT, BAT, and clicker training shine.  Sounds like he is indeed getting better! Be vigilant and learn to read his tiniest signals. You have to learn when to distract with a command or get him out of a situation before he overloads or overthinks.


That makes complete sence. Some dogs may seem aggressive inside their yard while barking at passer-bys (which would be terriotirial aggression, also depends on how severe the case), when the truth is that they are the friendliest dog when you walk into the yard. Of course this is not true all the time, and you probably shouldn't walk into a yard with any dog in it unless you know the dog. I do clicker training with my FA GSD, and it works wonders! I absolutely hate using treats as a reward, so I use fetch as a reward instead. I do give him random commands when people are over, and this does distract him.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you all!! Your information was very helpful!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

absolutely that a stable dog would not have to puff up and feel threatened to a non threat, having the confidence to know the difference. there can be mixed body lauguage with a fearful dog, and you need to get to know your own dogs response in that area.

i have one that will do pic A, but its just to save his own butt and scare stuff off. with other dogs if he knows the dog is submissive he will be a bully, but, if another dog is agressive and he senses it, he's be the first one to take off.

around people, as long as new people he meets are not showing any fear, being direct with him and moving around like they own the place he is fine, if someone shows fear or he can sense it, it makes him nervous, he knows something is wrong.

its all in watching your dog, knowing his response and working with it in slow positive ways.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> absolutely that a stable dog would not have to puff up and feel threatened to a non threat, having the confidence to know the difference. there can be mixed body lauguage with a fearful dog, and you need to get to know your own dogs response in that area.
> 
> i have one that will do pic A, but its just to save his own butt and scare stuff off. with other dogs if he knows the dog is submissive he will be a bully, but, if another dog is agressive and he senses it, he's be the first one to take off.
> 
> ...


Mine does this to save himdelf also, but that's what many FA dogs do isn't it? They wan't to make sure the "threat" doesn't come near them. That's how mine is, he is fine after a few minutes as long as the person/people ignore him and aren't nervous. He just walks around the house going about his usual day. As long as they ignore him, he ignores them. I have been paying attention to his body language and noticing things more. Eventually, I'll be able to read him like a book!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, having people ignore them works great! with my guy thats what i tell people, then after they have been there if he will come smell them, and i still tell them to ignore him. if he looks like he's relaxed after that and still seems curious about the people and goes and smells them i let them give him food, and he is fine as long as they do what i say. funny because when people play throw the tug for him puts him in a different mode, he will take the tug back to them for more. i have people practice patting his head when he has the tug in his mouth because thats how i condition him to be petted, and he's fine with it.


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