# HELP Over the Top!



## MaximusMom (Oct 27, 2002)

I don't think I am going to be able to handle Artimus in Agility. He is just a year old yesterday and he won't stop 1 very frustrating behavior and I can see it now he is going to be 1 of those dogs that won't hold the start line and bark and act silly, then add the other behavior and were gonna get the excusal whistle.

He has great attitude, but he won't hold a stay for me to even open our back door to let him outside, then tears off barking this excited bark. He just isn't getting the self control.

He jumps and bites my arms, not drawing blood or ripping my clothes anymore, but still grabbing my clothes. Yes since puppy he loves to use his teeth and believe me hes been redirected to death but I can't walk around with a tug all day, clicked, corrected mildly. Around the house he pulls my sleeves for attention, add some agility equipment and some running and he is full force clamping.

Theres nothing wrong with a dog that barks and acts silly, I just don't know if I can withstand the stress as his handler on the course and to be frank he draws blood 1 more time and hes about to get the correction of a life time my temper and patience is wearing extrenely thin.. 

So yesterday was his birthday and I am thinking prong collar and pull tab for his present! I know evil mommy. Has anyone used those new plastic ones? Got any good training advice for the #1 get yourself an excusal issue?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How much control work have you done with him prior to trying the course work? I had a dog I let get on the course before I had good control....disaster.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

i could be wrong, but i think a prong collar would make him more ferocious!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I;ve seen plenty of dogs that don't have a start line stay at trials. But any dog can be trained to stay. Start with 3 seconds and work up. He's only a year old. I don't even start training until they are a year old.


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## MaximusMom (Oct 27, 2002)

He has a stay but the minute its what he really wants that stay is gone. I can make him stay forever the minute my hand touches that door knob bark, bark, boing, boing. 

Heavy corrections do intensify his mouthing behavior, thats why I am questioning the prong. I have also considered just taking him to the floor. He could absolutely use more control. He totally explodes out of his crate, grabbing and biting, when I grab his scruff he gets worse.

Guess it time to take him to see one of my favorite schutzhund trainers, such a long drive and it won't quit snowing!!!!!

We haven't done any course work, just started low jumps, open weaves, etc. Start moving fast and your gonna get it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: MaximusMomHe has a stay but the minute its what he really wants that stay is gone. I can make him stay forever the minute my hand touches that door knob bark, bark, boing, boing.


What do you do when he does that? Kathy, I know you're a way more experienced trainer than I am, but I deal with my high excitability/low impulse control guy every day and the best thing that works with him is to just stop. If I'm getting his leash down and he's jumping up and down I put the leash back and stand perfectly still, staring off into space somewhere over his head until he stops. Then I try again. Sometimes it takes a little while, but he does figure out that being excited and jumpy only delays the good stuff. 

With doors, it's a given that they have to sit and wait until released. Sometimes I don't make them do that, but I do say "okay" anyway when I open the door. And rather than tell them to sit and wait each time I simply stand there at the door and wait for them to figure it out. If they get up when I reach for the doorknob, I pull my hand back and wait for the sit again. If I start to open the door and they get up, I close it again, pull back my hand and stand still again. I completely ignore them. If they rush the door I body block them, slam it shut, and again stand there perfectly still with my arms at my sides until they sit. We did this over and over and over again, as long as it took. 

Same thing with the food bowl, they stay in a sit or down with the bowl inches away until I tell them they can eat. All of this is without any commands at all, it's expected and they know it. I don't know if you do any of this stuff or how well it would translate to agility, but it does help keep some semblance of calm and control around here.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I have also considered just taking him to the floor.


ACK, don't do that. You WANT the excitement, but also the control. You need to teach that with the control, the reward is the release!

Do you make him sit/stay for his breakfast bowl? How about before he goes outside but in a different way?

I use my body to help with the 'stay'. NOT the verbals and corrections. Just using clear info that if he want's something, he has to stay.

Like with his food bowl. Have him sit a bit away (3'?) from where his bowl will go down. Have him see the bowl in your hand. Have him sit. Say to stay/wait. WHEN HIS BUTT is on the ground, start to put the bowl down but you need to watch him.

Timing is VITAL!

If when you are lowering the bowl, he gets up, then AS HE RISES so is you hand/body with the bowl. NO CORRECTIONS. No 'no's', no anger. Just UP comes the bowl from the floor. Now turn into him (like between where the bowl was going and him) face him and CALMLY just have him sit again. If you have to move toward him and even back him up a step (facing him, do NOT have this be a heel or anything) and again have him sit.

When he does, say good 'sit' take a step away and sideways (so you now have distance to give you time to raise bowl again if needed, and can also see him while putting the bowl down. Again say stay and WATCH HIM WHILE LOWERING THE BOWL.

This is all about timing (like most training). If YOUR timing is good (not your correction, your TIMING) so as his butt comes up off the floor too early the food is coming off the floor at EXACTLY the same rate...............he will soon get the EXACT coorelation to why he's not getting his food. 

Now this is very important.................

Are you focused?

Paying attention? (this is the part I mess up







)

You have to put the food bowl down WITH your eye on him, and then stand up ENTIRELY with him still in place. You can NOT release him while bending/moving either up or down. YOu must put the bowl down, stand up, not move a muscle while watching him, and if he's still in place then say your release (ok?) and let him eat.

IF HE MOVES before the release and the bowl is in your hand, keep standing up, raising the bowl and walking into him (no corrections, no verbals) to get him back to his 'spot' to the 'good sit' and begin again. If the bowl is down and he get up but you are standing or didn't say 'ok' then again, just move into him (between the bowel on the floor and his spot) get him back in position, stand up and still and release him.

Initially you want to try to do all of this as fast as you can to have him succeed and understand, without testing or pushing him at all. Later on you can have him further away and increase the time. 

If you go to http://www.youtube.com/user/Maggieroselee#p/u/9/ryt8kITvlS8 around minute 3 you'll see me with the clicker teaching a 'stay/wait'. this is a few months ago and don't think I've even named the command. 

What I AM doing is rewarding (click/treat) when she DOES what I want, and ignoring (no click/treat) when she gets up. Initially I have to stay right with her, hardly move, and click/treat fast and often. As she understands, then I move around, get distance, and start to test her. What you are seeing on the video is after we've been doing this for a few months (with me not training as much as I should







) so NOT how it looked initially!

She gets up in less than a minute to wander WATCH WHAT I DO!!! No corrections. No anger. Just no reward, no treats, adn when I get her back the click/treat starts. Cause they are young they have a short attention span, sitting is BORING, but the click/food start helping them 'get it'. This was towards the end of an hour class and INTERESTING stuff is obvious.

After she gets up, she wants to do something else so I have trouble getting her back. She 'calming signals' me and herself by shaking at one point. 

Listen to the instructor in the video, she's giving info to me and the other dogs/handlers in class (we were all having problems at the end of the hour).

At 4:58 sec I do a BIG BAD THING and push her behind down! This isn't good cause it put's their opposition (they want to push back up on their behind even more standing than the 'sit' I want) into effect. Better to pull up on the harness and lure with the food so they sit on their own. I was a BAD HANDLER (hey, 1 hour into class and I was losing it too







).

Treat on the ground for the 'down' and up in their mouth for the 'sit'. 

For all 3 my older dogs, I found it easier to go thru some obedience classes before starting up agility. So that may also be a route to choose that works for many agility people/dogs.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:With doors, it's a given that they have to sit and wait until released. Sometimes I don't make them do that, but I do say "okay" anyway when I open the door. And rather than tell them to sit and wait each time I simply stand there at the door and wait for them to figure it out. If they get up when I reach for the doorknob, I pull my hand back and wait for the sit again. If I start to open the door and they get up, I close it again, pull back my hand and stand still again. I completely ignore them. If they rush the door I body block them, slam it shut, and again stand there perfectly still with my arms at my sides until they sit. We did this over and over and over again, as long as it took.


That's exactly what I have to do with both my dogs at the door. They are crazy screaming nutjobs so I know what you are dealing with. But no YELLING or corrections. I do the same with I don't reach for the doorknob until they sit, and if they get up I don't open the door. If they move as the door opens I either just close it or block it until they are back in the sit.

It's NOT about what I say. Which is why all the verbals and yelling I used to do never worked (go figure), just added to the chaos. 

It's ALL about my body and what it is DOING in conjunction with the dogs bodies and what they are doing. They get up before they are allowed, they do not get what they want. Not punished. What they want is just calmly removed/blocked/closed/whatever.

Timing timing timing. Cause the better my good timing is when they break, the faster they figure it out. The more I rely on my voice and NOT my body, and this blows the timing, the longer the learning curve takes.


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

If you need a prong then get one just learn to sue it properly. They can work well on dogs like him but can also get him higher.
I finally went to a gentle Leader with Kahlua and it gives me much better control. I use it going into the ring as she gets super excited when she is going to run. Cant do that in AKC but then I use the flat collar.

I also suggest you get the DVD crate games by Susan Garrett. It teaches them control using the crate - best to use a wire or vari kennel. They don't get out until they control them selves. Now having said that I used this with Kahlua and she has super control every where but in the ring at the start line.

I have a book that suggests also instead of pulling the dog back at the door if they break to go ahead of you to turn and walk into the dog - in other words herd them back into position. I've used this also and it does work.

Consistency is the key to this. Sounds like he is trying to be alpha and needs to be put into his place in the pack. 

The biting - Kahlua started doing that when she got excited in the ring or at class or if I made her redo an obstacle. I nailed her big time once and she stopped. She had never been a mouthy dog so I knew it was over the top excitement and her trying to herd me. But I grabbed her and really told her to leave it and plunked her butt on the ground. It worked but I had to make sure she knew I really meant it.

There are lots of great books out there - Cleanrun has a specail edition on control -its about $15 and well worth it - some great articles.

Pat


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You may be able to handle your dog in agility, but not until you get general control over him first. It's pretty clear that your dog has zero respect for you and it shows up in the biting, and out of control bursting out the door and crate. You need to find a good obedience trainer and ask for help on how to gain control at home too. I wouldn't waste my time and money while teaching my dog bad habits in agility until you get this problem fixed.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I do exactly what MRL and Cassidy's Mom both do. And I emphasize what MRL says -- I don't speak if I can possibly help it. I use body blocks and stopping all movement to guide my pup.

For example, a pup that wants to get out of his crate has to lie in the crate quietly. No sitting up, whining or pawing at the crate. If I allow one of these, then I get a slippery slope and more start to happen. So I've learned that it's best to have a black and white rule -- quiet and lying down. If the pup is whining/barking, I turn my back to the crate. When he's quiet, I turn around and face the crate. I approach it and start to lean over and reach for the crate door. At any point that he engages in any "offending" behavior, I simply stop. 

But I don't just stop, I back up a step. So if I was leaning over, I stand up and back away from the crate. If I had turned to face the crate, I turn away.

BUT I NEVER SAY A WORD. 

I try to implement the "stop and one step back" approach whenever feasible (this doesn't work in all situations). If my dog wants to go out the front door, I'll put him in a sit in the middle of the living room (I don't let my dogs crowd the door. They need to sit back a way -- I give them a visual location -- a rug or other marker -- where they need to plant their bottoms. ) If he breaks (if my timing wasn't perfect and I didn't catch him in time), then I don't just bring him back to the original spot, but I actually back him up about two feet. Then we try again. If he breaks, we go back two more feet. I've actually marched dogs all the way down the hallway and almost into the bedroom before they decided that it was worthwhile to stay in place. 

It's vitally important that we always at a minimum return our dogs to the same place, but I've found that backing them up really gets their attention. It's a mild, non verbal but powerful correction. What they want MOST is going out the door; so distance to the door becomes your most valuable weapon. 

Once a dog realizes he's going BACKWARD, he gets frustrated. You'll get more frenetic behavior at first. But then (it takes a couple of days), a light goes on and he realizes that he NEVER gets to where he's going by breaking a stay or other command. Then you'll get a dog that's more likely to stay in place. Impulse control starts taking place because he has to make a decision -- wait to go to the door or break and get farther away from the door. Waiting isn't any fun. But getting farther away is awful. Many dogs will deal with traditional corrections if they get what they ultimately want. So we have to use what they value to motivate them. 

And if we can do that without using our voices, or even touching them with our hands, all the better: Touch is reinforcing. And don't forget that dogs play with their forepaws; so your touching him with your hands may seem playful to him. If you really can't herd him back using your legs, hips and thighs, put a tab on his collar and use that. But dogs communicate with their bodies; they push each other around with their hips and shoulders. The more we use our bodies to communicate, the more clearly we speak to them. 

I've been able to use this technique to get solid stays from young squirrely dogs. They just know I'll deny them what they want most otherwise. 

And I'll just add that I like giving my dogs visual markers to help them out when possible. As an example, it's easier for my young dogs to remain more calm and not underfoot while I prepare their dinners if they each have a specific bed in/near the kitchen to go to. The rule is that they have to be on the bed. My GSD pup sits so that his rear is on the bed (with his front paws off), but he's on it.







I used to try sending the kids out of the kitchen, or just tell them to lie down, but they broke easily. Now, they have a clear place to be. The boundaries are clear. Black and white. You're either on the bed or off it. And then they have to be released to eat. 

They seem to understand what I want better. I think it's just that I'm clearer about what I want. Better communication by me = better impulse control.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I agree that his excitement is exactly what you want in an agility dog! I disgaree that his behavior is some how a sign of "disrespect". I would guess that the biting and barking is due to frustration, as is often the case with high drive dogs. Could you be giving him cues quicker? If you aren;t directing him clearly enough, it will certainly result in frustration. Are you making him come back and repeat sequences or obstacles that you or he screwed up? That is something that IME is a no-no for intense dogs, as all it seems to do is build frustration. Instead, as long as he is running with you and not biting or barking or doing anything undesirable, finish the sequence as though everything was perfect and put him up. Walk the sequence again to see how you could improve what went wrong (it is very often handler error, especially with fast dogs) then try it again with the dog. 

Once you have looked at what could be contributing to his frustration, I would address the barking and biting by stopping as soon as it starts, taking his collar telling him "NO!" and putting him away out of the agility area. I suggest only giving him one chance before ending the session totally and being very consitant with the rule. The first time you take his collar, tell him "NO!" and take him directly to his out-of-site time out area. In about 5 minutes, bring him out and try again. The second time, he doesn't get to come back in to play. If he starts it at a trial immediately ask to leave the ring, put him in a crate and ignore him. 

As for the start line stays, why stress the small stuff? Dogs can have extremely successful agility careers without ever having start line stays (there is a multi-world CH who won't hold a start line stay). With my own rather over the top GSD, asking her to stay at the start line only frustrated her and made her more likely to get out of control - she would hold a stay but it made her even more wound up - she'd literally vibrate waiting for the release. IME with a dog who is driven to do agility, staying a the start line builds frustration and arousal in much the same way tying a prey driven dog back and teasing them with a toy does.


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

Great points. I know when Kahlua barked and nipped it was 100% frustration and usually because I messed up signals (way too slow) and made her repeat. Once I "punished" her for it and let her know I meant it she stopped but I also did what you suggest - I work hard to not put her in that position. I also found that her zooming and run away's were a result of stress from me making her sit too many times on course. 
When I keep going she is way better and usually pays better attention.
Re start line stays, I get them in class and matches not in trial. When I run FEO thats what I work on but in my recent videos I didn't even ask for them. Yes she was ahead of me and in one run caused an off course but overall she was really paying attention and I think we had less stress (I know I did)
So for now I am running with her and when we get some more maturity I may try again.

Pat


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Interesting how much harder it is to train/live with the type of dog we all THINK we want for agility. The intelligence, quick thinking, and go go go go go that these dogs have make them MUCH harder to work with than 'regular' dogs. We DO need different skills, knowledge and abilities than other dogs we may have raised exactly the same way and THOSE dogs were practically perfect.

The problem isn't the dog. Problem isn't that the owner handler isn't trying and working with the dog. Problem is finding out the keys that work with THIS dog with THIS drive, intelligence and work ethic. It's almost like 'I'm a dolphin trainer and do great so am getting a dog and it should be just as easy to train my dog like I did my dolphins..........' NOT. With all the animal stuff that's similar, the differences make the difficulty.

If you know anyone who trains high drive Border Collies, they may be a great resource to use. Specially because you also can't use strong arming and 'Alpha' training to work with these dogs. Smart dog means smarter trainer with WAY more in their 'bag of tricks' that needs to be plumb full of different ways to attack a problem that makes sense to the dog.


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## lylol (Feb 18, 2009)

finding out the keys that work with THIS dog with THIS drive, intelligence and work ethic"... well said!!!


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## MaximusMom (Oct 27, 2002)

Im working on my patience with the situation, and not giving in just so I can get done with it and on to my schedule. Which translates for me to proper body language. He is improving sometimes it just takes somebody else to remind you of your weakness.

We are getting some door respect. He is now sitting, sometime he lays down in his sit, will fix that next but he does wait for me to open it, he seems to now think the inner door opening is his release, so I put him back 4 or 5 times before I open the outer door now, LOL. Tears off barking still, it is comical at least. I just keep repeating patience in my head, patience has always been my problem training my dogs. Patieince will always bite you.

He seems to be maturing, I think I just forgot how utterly stubborn a male can be. This is terrible but he is starting to answer to "bonehead"!!!

Basha and Sierra are high drive, but more eager to please, Artimus his high drive and stubborn to please, LOL.

We aren't even as far as attempting a sequence yet. Were still buried and bored in tons of snow. I have been just working on him jogging next to me without attempting to bite at my arm, he will do jumps, pause table, you know basic puppy stuff and handling like learing a switch, walk on a board, 2 on 2 off . Add the run or jog between and here he comes. I just know that if I don't stop this behavior now, its just gonna get worse. 

I don't think the pulling at my sleeves is a lack of respect he wants me to pet him and show him attention. I agree the communication with him is going to be key or he will get frustrated and the behavior will intensify.

The dog respects me, and I don't consider anything I do with any dog to better their behavior a waste of time. Who says I wasted any money yet he hasn't been to agility class yet. He has been to puppy obedience and that is never a waste of time or money.

Artimus is my husbands dog and some of you might remember Basha was "my husbands dog" and I kinda a stole her and refused to give her back. I have really tried and in my opinion have done a very good job of minding my own business and not "stealing" Artimus, but its time for some of his behaviors to stop if his training is going to progress to the next level. 

I even sent hubby and Artimus to puppy class without me so I wouldn't be bossing and telling him what to do and my husband has done a very good job. But if he is gonna hang with me in Agility he can't be biting at me. 

Thanks for the advice nice chatting with you all again, we will let you know how he progresses.


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## MaximusMom (Oct 27, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeInteresting how much harder it is to train/live with the type of dog we all THINK we want for agility. The intelligence, quick thinking, and go go go go go that these dogs have make them MUCH harder to work with than 'regular' dogs. We DO need different skills, knowledge and abilities than other dogs we may have raised exactly the same way and THOSE dogs were practically perfect.
> 
> The problem isn't the dog. Problem isn't that the owner handler isn't trying and working with the dog. Problem is finding out the keys that work with THIS dog with THIS drive, intelligence and work ethic. It's almost like 'I'm a dolphin trainer and do great so am getting a dog and it should be just as easy to train my dog like I did my dolphins..........' NOT. With all the animal stuff that's similar, the differences make the difficulty.
> 
> If you know anyone who trains high drive Border Collies, they may be a great resource to use. Specially because you also can't use strong arming and 'Alpha' training to work with these dogs. Smart dog means smarter trainer with WAY more in their 'bag of tricks' that needs to be plumb full of different ways to attack a problem that makes sense to the dog.


Your right I gotta find his key!

Now you know I do! Just deciding what to pack for a first aid kit when we thaw out and classes start back up, LOL!







But in the mean time I am going keep working on my patience with Artimus. Some of you might remember patience was my weakness in tracking also and I also have a tendency to get hectic in obedience so I hear.................. LOL and see in videos.


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