# Thoughts on this dog? 2nd at WUSV



## gagsd

Witz Eqidius
I found myself really liking this dog a few years ago, just based on youtube videos. He was nowhere near as polished as he is now, and is doing quite well competing this year.
What are your thoughts? Strengths, weaknesses? From a training perspective... what do you see as proper helper-work and ob. training (for this dog), to get from a few years ago, to his performance at this years WUSV?





WUSV this year





2 years ago





4 years ago

pedigree: Witz Eqidius - German Shepherd Dog


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## robk

I enjoyed watching the videos and seeing the dog develop in to what he is now.


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## gagsd

Robk.... thanks for playing!
Would you mind commenting on what you like, or don't like, about the dog? Sometimes I see a dog and can't really pinpoint what specifically I like about him.

Here is the obedience from this year's WUSV:


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## robk

Well, since I am someone who just completed my very first BH on the first dog I ever trained, I think I am hardly qualified to critique a dog competing at the WUSV! I think he is a very powerful and happy looking dog in his work. I as well would be interested in reading the comments from someone more experienced than myself.


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## cliffson1

A very very nice protection routine, IMO....clean, powerful, and clearheaded. Really liked his back transport in that he c hanged from competition heeling to adversary heeling. Nice dog and nice training!


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## gagsd

Cliff, do you have time to look at the 2 years ago video?
The dog hits so hard and just snatches the sleeve off of the helper. (I think this is shown in the 2 year old vid).


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## cliffson1

Yeah, I looked at all the videos....I really really like the dam side of his pedigree....extremely strong serious dogs!


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## Fast

This is looks like a really good dog with fantastic training. If you think you can see past that training in a trial or training situation you are living in a fantasy. You have to respect good training. The only way to really see a dog like this is in a social situation and around his family and home.


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## Liesje

So I'm new at this but along the lines of what Fast is saying I have a hard time getting past the training to see the dog. In fact I found some of it almost distracting. I don't like that scuttle-y call out thing or the silent guard and to me the heeling is forging but again....training! Congrats to the trainer/handler and the WUSV placement.


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## wildo

Fast said:


> If you think you can see past that training in a trial or training situation you are living in a fantasy. You have to respect good training. The only way to really see a dog like this is in a social situation and around his family and home.


Fast- this isn't the first time I've seen you use the word "fantasy" or "magic drive" and I wondered if you can elaborate, perhaps for this given situation. I really am curious, as I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So often we're told to go see dogs in trial and in training in order to decide if we like the dog. Yet you seem to be saying that one can't learn much about the dog in training or trialing- if we think so, we're "living in a fantasy."

Have I misunderstood your point? I see you post this often enough that I'd like to understand what you're saying.


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## gagsd

Liesje said:


> So I'm new at this but along the lines of what Fast is saying I have a hard time getting past the training to see the dog. In fact I found some of it almost distracting. I don't like that scuttle-y call out thing or the silent guard and to me the heeling is forging but again....training! Congrats to the trainer/handler and the WUSV placement.


I actually liked the dog "pre-fancy-training." There are quite a few videos of him on YouTube, starting 4 or 5 years ago.


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## JakodaCD OA

I know nada about schutzhund training/trialing. But the one thing I really liked about this dog in ALL the videos is his focus on the handler, his 'checking in',,not physically but the 'looking'. In the very first video, (and maybe I've seen it before but never noticed it), when he's running the blinds, he's charging on , but every few moments I see him give a 'quick look' towards the handler.

I like that he seems to know what's going on 360 and the handler is his main focus, does what he's supposed to, and knows where that handler is,,make sense? LOL kinda hard to say what i mean again, knowing nada about this.

Nice dog, wouldn't throw him outta my backyard


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## Fast

wildo said:


> Fast- this isn't the first time I've seen you use the word "fantasy" or "magic drive" and I wondered if you can elaborate, perhaps for this given situation.


Ok, we have a dog that obviously has training that is absolutely top notch. So how can a person that does not train dogs, at a level close to that or not at all, ever be able to see what is the training and what is the dog? One of the things that training does is accentuate the some qualities and diminish others so that the dog can look a certain way for the schutzhund field. The dog is being trained for a performance on the schutzhund stage. It's the equivalent of someone watching an actress on The Tonight Show and believing that they know who the "real" person is. But they live in a fantasy world, just like school girl that fantasizes about marrying Donnie Osmond. 

On other post it may be the people that attribute traits to dog that died 100 years ago. They are doing nothing but a cheap imitation of a horoscope or one of those guys that claims they can talk to the dead. They say Dino vom Flintstone was like this...... Then they talk about some traits that that most dogs have and everyone says "their dog is just like that." 

I used to think they were being dishonest, but now I think they are smoking fairy dust and have moved into a land of fantasy and magic.


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## hunterisgreat

Fast said:


> Ok, we have a dog that obviously has training that is absolutely top notch. So how can a person that does not train dogs, at a level close to that or not at all, ever be able to see what is the training and what is the dog? One of the things that training does is accentuate the some qualities and diminish others so that the dog can look a certain way for the schutzhund field. The dog is being trained for a performance on the schutzhund stage. It's the equivalent of someone watching an actress on The Tonight Show and believing that they know who the "real" person is. But they live in a fantasy world, just like school girl that fantasizes about marrying Donnie Osmond.
> 
> On other post it may be the people that attribute traits to dog that died 100 years ago. They are doing nothing but a cheap imitation of a horoscope or one of those guys that claims they can talk to the dead. They say Dino vom Flintstone was like this...... Then they talk about some traits that that most dogs have and everyone says "their dog is just like that."
> 
> I used to think they were being dishonest, but now I think they are smoking fairy dust and have moved into a land of fantasy and magic.


Psssshhh. Everyone knows you melt fairy dust in a spoon and mainline it


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## wildo

Thanks for the elaboration, Fast. Now I understand what you're saying.


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## cliffson1




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## onyx'girl

where can that fairydust be found to mainline? I think it would be a great addition to my training program! And will my dog be able to indulge too?


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## Catu

I only know the natural version, where the fairies live, that grows on the forest behind my house. No need to mainline. Maybe someday one of my dogs will think one is a ball and then I'll let you know how training goes


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## Catu

Back to topic, its interesting that not only Witz got second place, but that another dog from the same kennel, Geischa Eqidius, got third place. You don't see that every year.


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## christinaekenn

I agree with Fast to a degree. Training can help change the way a dog is but never entirely IMO. A weak dog will NEVER make it to this level. A dog without full genetic grips won't put up high scores either. I don't care who says they can "fix grips"...grips are largely genetic and under high stress, most often revert to what they once were. A dog without good hunt drive and nose won't make the tracks (these tracks were extremely long because the grass was good but also literally straight up and down hills too!).A good dog must be the foundation before good training can be put on it to get here and do well. It was clearly apparent at the trial. Many many dogs broke down in many ways. Not to mention, in person, the helper was absolutely laying the stick to the dogs very hard. Many dogs got very munchy or shallow or gave very weak guarding afterward. Some dogs even left. Would these dogs really bite for real? Maybe, maybe not. Schutzhund is a sport for sure, but not something that caters to ****ters at the upper levels. 

The dogs with weaker nerves lost a lot in obedience and could not maintain routines they put out at home. BTW, the winner might not bite for real (who knows) but he is one incredibly stable and driven dog. The handler even took him to the huge parade down mainstreet in Munich on the cobblestone streets with hundreds and hundreds of people lining the tiny allyways, loud music, firecrackers, etc. Not many dogs could handle that and then walk on the field unaffected and give the routines they gave. Many strong pieces need to be there genetically for the dogs to handle this field, this high stress environment (tons of people literally screaming, horns, whistles, etc), 10+ hours in a plane, hotel, etc. It goes the other way also, there were many incredible dogs who got so jacked up in the environment that they would not out, took multiple commands, bad secondary obedience etc. It does not make them bad dogs either.

Again, JMO....Is Schutzhund a real test for something like policework? Of course not...but lets not belittle the strength and genetics a dog needs to do what some of these dogs are doing.


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## cliffson1

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Packen

Agree 100%. People seem to be taking the "training" thing too lightly. Not every dog can be trained that way! From the video in the first post, the dog brings it ON  Excellent performance off home field, says a LOT about the dog, training comes secondary.


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## carmspack

I also like this dog , even (maybe moreso) at the beginning of his training . I did notice that he actually looked in to the blinds , not just fly by , gives an indication of the dogs detail work - bet you he would be good in a "search" oriented job . I liked his style of heeling , great raport with the handler . I believe that he is what we want in a GSD and that he is also capable of being a reasonable easy to manage companion.

As to Fast - some of the keenest dedicated minds , for the love of this developing breed , took the time to leave a critical view of what there had been , what there was . Call this the diagnosis. Then when we read the von Stephanitz' , the Wooton, the Elliott and the genetic studies by Willis , and can have a dialog with passionate Bruce Brisson , and what we do is to take a course which is the remedy -- the prognosis of trying to foretell what the results may be based upon or decisions , our routes . Prognostication -- not magic 

"On other post it may be the people that attribute traits to dog that died 100 years ago. They are doing nothing but a cheap imitation of a horoscope or one of those guys that claims they can talk to the dead. They say Dino vom Flintstone was like this...... Then they talk about some traits that that most dogs have and everyone says "their dog is just like that." 

I used to think they were being dishonest, but now I think they are smoking fairy dust and have moved into a land of fantasy and magic " (do they pay taxes in this land?)


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> As to Fast - some of the keenest dedicated minds , for the love of this developing breed , took the time to leave a critical view of what there had been , what there was . Call this the diagnosis. Then when we read the von Stephanitz' , the Wooton, the Elliott and the genetic studies by Willis , and can have a dialog with passionate Bruce Brisson , and what we do is to take a course which is the remedy -- the prognosis of trying to foretell what the results may be based upon or decisions , our routes . -- not magic


The keenest minds are actually PRODUCING DOGS!!! What has Bruce Brisson ever done? Has he bred a great dog? No. Has he trained a good dog? No. 

I get that it's fun to look at pedigrees and try to foretell what a breeding might produce. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, _ *** Removed by Admin *** _, and it gets similar results. But there is no need to go back to 1900, or even 1970 for that matter, to predict the outcome of a breeding. If you don't have an idea about what a breeding should produce from looking at the last few generation, then you have no business breeding. 

Further you and your ilk are give the impression that breeding is a formula to people new to GSDs. This is a huge disservice to them and thus the breed. 




> (do they pay taxes in this land?)


Why are you asking me? You're a citizen and full time resident.


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## wildo

Fast said:


> But there is no need to go back to 1900, or even 1970 for that matter, to predict the outcome of a breeding. If you don't have an idea about what a breeding should produce from looking at the last few generation, then you have no business breeding.


Couldn't they do both? Couldn't they (some breeder) produce nice dogs AND be able to explain why the dog is nice via pedigree? I mean- completely dismissing a pedigree as an explanation of behavior seems a bit nonsensical. Are you guys really just playing the extremes but ultimately going to concede somewhere in the middle anyway?? 

It seems to me that not understanding what's in the pedigree and not using a pedigree as a predictor of potential drive/nerve/temperament/etc is relying more on a hope and a prayer for what you're going to get out of the breeding. I'm not following the contention with knowing and understanding the pedigree...


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## Fast

wildo said:


> Couldn't they do both? Couldn't they (some breeder) produce nice dogs AND be able to explain why the dog is nice via pedigree? I mean- completely dismissing a pedigree as an explanation of behavior seems a bit nonsensical. Are you guys really just playing the extremes but ultimately going to concede somewhere in the middle anyway??
> 
> It seems to me that not understanding what's in the pedigree and not using a pedigree as a predictor of potential drive/nerve/temperament/etc is relying more on a hope and a prayer for what you're going to get out of the breeding. I'm not following the contention with knowing and understanding the pedigree...


I do look at the pedigree, but the further you go back the less it matters. And at a certain point it matters so little as to be inconsequential for anything other than entertainment.

Honestly, do you really believe that these people know what a dog was like that was born in 1915?


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## wildo

Well... not personally, no, but I'm sure they could read about what the dog was like. Why not?

To some extent (with my ignorant self on this matter) I have to agree. There are family traits that pass from my grand parents that I can see in myself, but I also think I am very, very different from my grandparents. I imagine I have almost no resemblance to my great-great-great-great-great grandparents... I do think it's an interesting question: if more than <insert number here> generations back can really provide that strong of an influence.

[EDIT]- On the flip side (because I like playing both sides of an issue I know nothing about :rofl that's really kind of the point of a pedigree, isn't it? If we can say that 5 generations ago, a dog was documented in demonstrating certain characteristics, and then that dog was breed to another dog, and their progeny demonstrated certain characteristics, etc- then there kind of *IS* a roadmap to follow to see if certain traits are being passed from many generations of dogs... At least I _think_ that's the point of a pedigree...


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## Packen

carmspack said:


> I did notice that he actually looked in to the blinds , not just fly by


This is one of the criteria that is scored during the blind search. In training the dog gets to bite a ball that is hung inside the blind, the handler outs him on the recall before sending him to the next blind. So during the actual trial there are no balls in the blind but the dogs checks it out thus getting full score for checking the blinds.


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## Fast

wildo said:


> Well... not personally, no, but I'm sure they could read about what the dog was like. Why not?


There a number of reasons. If you read about a dog you can only see things from the perspective of the writer and that perspective might be different than yours. You could see the same dog and have a completely different opinion. Go and look at the dog that won the German conformation championships this year. This is a dog that many people feel should never be deemed pronounced in courage. But this dog has been many times. So in 75 years will some guy on a web board be spouting off about how courageous this dog was? Is a guy that has a new puppy, that is very courageous, in 2060 think that the courage his dog displays comes from this years champion? 

Also many times people are learning about these dogs from word of mouth. And word of mouth becomes a game of telephone. What is said in the beginning is rarely what comes out in the end. I have had the luck to be into dogs for a very long time and it has gotten to the point that dogs that I knew very well are now being linebred on. Now I have people new to the game telling me about these dogs and the stories that they tell are simply not grounded in reality. 

And sadly, people lie. 





> To some extent (with my ignorant self on this matter) I have to agree.


Better watch out! You might get kicked off the super top secret euro GSD group with that kind of talk. 




> then there kind of *IS* a roadmap to follow to see if certain traits are being passed from many generations of dogs... At least I _think_ that's the point of a pedigree...


Yes that is the point of a pedigree. But it's not a recipe or a divining rod.


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## Liesje

wildo said:


> To some extent (with my ignorant self on this matter) I have to agree. There are family traits that pass from my grand parents that I can see in myself, but I also think I am very, very different from my grandparents. I imagine I have almost no resemblance to my great-great-great-great-great grandparents... I do think it's an interesting question: if more than <insert number here> generations back can really provide that strong of an influence.


Going back to your thread about fast dogs and my original question of why one dog is smaller, square-er in build and running 3.9 and another dog in the *same* litter is longer, 15lbs more and can run the relay at all much less anywhere near that speed? The genetics are the same are they not? We could probably pull a few ancestors out of the pedigree that lend themselves to speed and agility for the one brother and then find a different set of ancestors from the same pedigree that lend themselves to a slower, larger dog for the other brother, so which is right and how would you use it to accurately predict or make a breeding decision? I think what Fast is saying here is the point I was trying to make there. When you get to the very tippy top level of a certain sport you are not looking at pedigree but individual dog. I think the pedigree helps in a general sense but will not set apart, say, the top ten dogs at any given thing.


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## wildo

Liesje said:


> When you get to the very tippy top level of a certain sport you are not looking at pedigree but individual dog. I think the pedigree helps in a general sense but will not set apart, say, the top ten dogs at any given thing.


Right- I completely see the perspective you're painting and understand what you're saying. But couldn't you keep going along that vane and put those top ten dogs into pedigrees-- then what happens? You have a very dominant dog that has lots of documentation (because he was a top ten WUSV dog) to support claims made on account of his pedigree... Kind of circular.

So a pedigree with, say, Troll or Timmy or Lord or Mink (Mink? I think that's a big name) or etc... might be a pedigree that you can make predictions on because those dogs were the "top ten" of their day.


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## christinaekenn

Fast said:


> I get that it's fun to look at pedigrees and try to foretell what a breeding might produce. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, _ *** Removed by Admin *** _, and it gets similar results. But there is no need to go back to 1900, or even 1970 for that matter, to predict the outcome of a breeding. If you don't have an idea about what a breeding should produce from looking at the last few generation, then you have no business breeding.


I agree with this in regards to pedigrees. Genetic attributes CAN be traced down many generations in some instances but generally, I would only look closely at the last few generations in the pedigree and just glimpse further back. I know people who claim things such as "your dog gets that from Troll" when Troll might be 8 generations back....by that point, the genetics that Troll provided are so diluted with other dogs added to the pedigree that I highly doubt he would have much of an effect. Just as an example...Troll might have been important in producing a strong dog that in turn produced a strong dog etc but that is as far as I would take it. Many other factors and genetics go into a pedigree. I remember someone telling me once that "Dog X" had bad hips so don't take a puppy that was 5 generations down from him. Despite the fact that the last 4 generations were super hips...that is crazy IMO as that dog was so diluted by the time the puppies got to be 5 generations away.

But I still say in the other regard, that this dog in question is a strong dog regardless of training or "magic". Or he would not have made it to this result.

On a different note, I also agree with Lies on the comment, "I think the pedigree helps in a general sense but will not set apart, say, the top ten dogs at any given thing." Although I will also say that a ton of the dogs that made it to worlds were from either Vito or Ellute....overused studs I am sure but also appear to be very consistent in producing. Less of a crap shoot in selecting a puppy from one of them maybe? But would I look at a pedigree that had Vito or Ellute 4 generations back and say, Heck yea, this will be a strong litter because he produced such great dogs! Umm...no.


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## wildo

I'm REALLY interested to hear a response from one of the board members renown for their pedigree/bloodline knowledge on this topic. No offense intended to those supporting the "no more than four or so generation" school of thought on influence. I'm just curious about the "other side" of the conversation.


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## justde

One must also remember that dogs in a pedigree that are from linebreeding(s) bring more influence than an open breeding. If you look back far enough you'll find mulitiples of a certain dog or dogs that bring more influence ahead on the pedigree.


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## Liesje

wildo said:


> Right- I completely see the perspective you're painting and understand what you're saying. But couldn't you keep going along that vane and put those top ten dogs into pedigrees-- then what happens? You have a very dominant dog that has lots of documentation (because he was a top ten WUSV dog) to support claims made on account of his pedigree... Kind of circular.
> 
> So a pedigree with, say, Troll or Timmy or Lord or Mink (Mink? I think that's a big name) or etc... might be a pedigree that you can make predictions on because those dogs were the "top ten" of their day.


I think you can use a pedigree to place a lot of dogs into a "could be top ten" category but the *actual* top ten will depend on the individual dog, the training, and the performance that day. I don't see why breeders would disagree? I mean most people here seem to agree that there is breeding for the desirable traits of the breed and then there are people who take the competition/sport aspect to a whole different level and that is what we are looking at. The same reason why any decently bred GSD *should* be able to do flyball or agility but only a few are going to be AKC top ten or run under 4.0 seconds in flyball.


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## christinaekenn

absolutely Lies!


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## carmspack

I also like this dog , even (maybe moreso) at the beginning of his training . I did notice that he actually looked in to the blinds , not just fly by , gives an indication of the dogs detail work - bet you he would be good in a "search" oriented job . I liked his style of heeling , great raport with the handler . I believe that he is what we want in a GSD and that he is also capable of being a reasonable easy to manage companion.

As to Fast - some of the keenest dedicated minds , for the love of this developing breed , took the time to leave a critical view of what there had been , what there was . Call this the diagnosis. Then when we read the von Stephanitz' , the Wooton, the Elliott and the genetic studies by Willis , and can have a dialog with passionate Bruce Brisson , and what we do is to take a course which is the remedy -- the prognosis of trying to foretell what the results may be based upon or decisions , our routes . Prognostication -- not magic 

"On other post it may be the people that attribute traits to dog that died 100 years ago. They are doing nothing but a cheap imitation of a horoscope or one of those guys that claims they can talk to the dead. They say Dino vom Flintstone was like this...... Then they talk about some traits that that most dogs have and everyone says "their dog is just like that." 

I used to think they were being dishonest, but now I think they are smoking fairy dust and have moved into a land of fantasy and magic " (do they pay taxes in this land?)
That show lines are a group, and that american version gsd are a group, that ddr are recognizable , has a basis in selection . 
How do you get genetic obedience ?? you need to know the background -- . 
Lets look at the wgsl's because we had a youtubey "epic fail" recently, and in discussions and those breeding for work feel that these lines come up short in working traits and temperament.
Those lines as outlined in the "iceberg breeders" tend to concentrate heavily on Canto Wienerau. So to understand why you have what you have you need to know his background . His sire Hein Konigsbruch was low rated by both Funk and Rummel because of his lack of working ability, his fight drive was present , satisfactory, but not pronounced . So referring to some of those fine minds that documented the breed early in the day , in his book, Percy Elliott says Hein had very little working ability and so was down graded to G "he was friendly enough and satisfactory IF NOT TOO MUCH WAS ASKED OF HIM " Is this not what we see in those lines which are essentially linebred on him everytime Canto or his progeny appear. 
Canto followed his sire's temperament -- read the "iceberg" thread and see how the rest of the litter fared , and recognize that Canto died at a very young age , and see who is having the problems - one reason I ask , what is the pedigree please . Pigment, which group has the bitch stripe? Which group is more apt to have loose hocks and ligaments. 
When you know what you have only then can you redirect . There are some good show line dogs . I have pointed them out .


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## carmspack

"To some extent (with my ignorant self on this matter) I have to agree. There are family traits that pass from my grand parents that I can see in myself, but I also think I am very, very different from my grandparents" but Wildo you are NOT line bred.
By isolating certain genetics , or rather specializing on them you do develop something that is explained by the pedigrees background and unless you know the whys and wherefores you can't get out of it (if you want to make a change). 
sorry I just realized I had twice started an answer and was interrupted so it is a bit broken up.

"No offense intended to those supporting the "no more than four or so generation" school of thought on influence. I'm just curious about the "other side" of the conversation"

Wildo here is the sad truth -- look at pedigrees . Spend a day , a week , and scan all the pedigrees that you can find . Then come back and tell us how many pedigrees you find that have a kennel managing more than the first or second generation. We have some people here on the forum that do so , myself, Anne the Vandal Kent , Lee Ms Wolfstraum, Lisa with her high achieving Vala of zu treuen Handen , then others Bungalow, Busecker Schloss, Kirschental , Dolderbrunnen , ...


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## wildo

carmspack said:


> Wildo here is the sad truth -- look at pedigrees . Spend a day , a week , and scan all the pedigrees that you can find . Then come back and tell us how many pedigrees you find that have a kennel managing more than the first or second generation. We have some people here on the forum that do so , myself, Anne the Vandal Kent , Lee Ms Wolfstraum, Lisa with her high achieving Vala of zu treuen Handen , then others Bungalow, Busecker Schloss, Kirschental , Dolderbrunnen , ...


I'd like to take this challenge, but I'm afraid I don't know what you mean (more so- what you want me to see) when you say "have a kennel managing more than the first or second generation." Can you explain? I'd like to do what you are suggesting.

[EDIT]- to add: when you tell me what you mean by a kennel managing multiple generations, please also tell me why that's important. This will help me to understand what it is you want me to notice in looking at lots 'o pedigrees...


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## Catu

What I understand is that said kennel is breeding its own trademark of dogs, choosing dams and sires from their own breeding to keep breeding generation after generation, instead of buying a good female or the service of a good male to put their own kennel name on the work of others.


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## wildo

How funny. The first pedigree I looked up (which I randomly found after searching to see if an awesome dog name I heard the other day happened to be registered on PDB with a GSD) has a consistent kennel name BOTH on the dam and sire lines...


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## carmspack

Yes Korbelbach, and Zunderland and Kathargo , Barenfang and Maineiche as an example Fighter von der Maineiche - German Shepherd Dog

absolutely not this "What I understand is that said kennel is breeding its own trademark of dogs, choosing dams and sires from their own breeding to keep breeding generation after generation, instead of buying a good female or the service of a good male to put their own kennel name on the work of others" 

You would have to read the pedigrees to see . 

This topic sort of got dumped here by some Fast comments and should belong on the Foundation Lines and What they Bring thread .
There the looking back was brought up as a clarification of Wildo trying to understand comments in the Fast but nervy Thuringian thread . Everything went so fast - In that thread someone mentioned Sali and Minna , then that introduced the early founding regional groups and that spawned the differentiation of the Wurttembergers, and the two Swabian types .

I would not suggest anyone go back that far to examine an individual pedigree to make decisions. I do feel that a breeder should have a thorough understanding of the origins and development, the issues and resolutions . One should at least have a grasp of the pillars of the breed that were representative at the time of the splits and fractions , which places this at the early to mid 60's .
That is when dogs were bred more for specialized interests .
Back then you had Mutz and Marko and Bernd/Bodo - good balanced dogs with conformation and work. Then came the Wienerau and Arminius and things changed.


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## carmspack

mentioned many times before there are many kennels which never breed a second or third generation . You look at the web sites and they keep having new imports, breed, but never keep back .

I got a good look at some guide breeding programs and a good look at some closed police breeding programs . When they started using their own, animals tested by them for suitability , each generation , their success rate increased , fewer washouts , fewer problems . It is nice when you get reliable, predictable , consistent results.


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## carmspack

Wildo your Anubis Oxemberg does not quite qualify . Good breeding though !

Zunderland though is an example of multiple generations run through a maternal line . Tiekerhook, Blitsaerd.

Geefacker V Rikkor vom Geefacker - German Shepherd Dog and V Kara vom Geefacker - German Shepherd Dog the sire and dam of my new young black males sired by Carmspack Bugati - German Shepherd Dog whose mother line is mine going back the full 35 years , with LOTS of good genetic resources all along the way . 

In the USA , kennels Covy-Tucker Hill , Coberts, Hoheneichen , more I am sure --


Amira vom Pharaonenland - German Shepherd Dog


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## Xeph

In the USA , kennels Covy-Tucker Hill , Coberts, Hoheneichen , more I am sure - <--Campaigner, Arbywood, Karizma


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## cliffson1

Wildo, just learn the current three or four generations as advised and things will be much simpler


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> We have some people here on the forum that do so , myself, Anne the Vandal Kent , Lee Ms Wolfstraum, Lisa with her high achieving Vala of zu treuen Handen , then others Bungalow, Busecker Schloss, Kirschental , Dolderbrunnen , ...


WOW! :crazy: Really?


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> Wildo, just learn the current three or four generations as advised and things will be much simpler


Yay! I found something that Cliff and I can agree on!


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## cliffson1

That's scary....lets not make it a habit....lol


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## carmspack

Wildo do you feel your questions have been answered?


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## wildo

The only question I'm not sure I saw an answer to is in reference to this:


carmspack said:


> mentioned many times before there are many kennels which never breed a second or third generation . You look at the web sites and they keep having new imports, breed, but never keep back


The question is why does it matter if they don't breed a second (or third, or fourth, or etc...) generation? What do you gain (or what do they lose) by maintaining a long breeding lineage such as the 35 year lineage of Carmspack?


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## cliffson1

You gain knowledge of the dogs you have and are breeding to help guide your breeding decisions.
@Wildo....my response about the 3/4 generation importance is primarily because the way you are trying to learn these things will be more effective if you can see visually example of some of these dogs working and in person. You can do this with some of last three generations. But all the people that really are good at this stuff have also worked these dogs over years and years to know what we are looking at when viewing these dogs performing. There is no shortcuts to learning these dogs, nor is there any private interpretation of any aspects of the breed. There are many people who have extensive knowledge of the breed, and there are a lot of sour people in the breed....some of which are very knowledgeable.


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## onyx'girl

> there are a lot of sour people in the breed....some of which are very knowledgeable.


And they then move on to another breed, with which they'll eventually be sour on.


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## wildo

Sorry Cliff- I didn't mean to minimize your response about 3/4 generations. I saw it, and made a mental note. Thanks for elaborating. You lay out good advice in that you give me an actual mechanism for learning (being able to actually see 3 or maybe 4 generations in person) as opposed to just memorizing dog names of past. That seems like really good advice indeed.

I have noticed the sourness of some people in the breed. Honestly, I just don't get what they have to be sour about... Eh- probably no matter to me anyway.


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## Liesje

LOL the more I try to branch out and try different/new/unconventional things with my GSD the more I realize people just want to do their own thing. Do Schutzhund and most people think you are crazy for letting your dog do agility. Do agility and people are horrified your dog is "trained to attack". Lately I get a lot of laughs over what GSD people say about flyball breeding and what flyball people say about GSD breeding. So even though I'm a newbie at all this the more I try to experience, the more I see that people are first and foremost going to defend *their* sport/dog/line/pedigree/training method above all others, and I guess why shouldn't they? But I always keep that in mind. I'm sure this is not unique to this breed...


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## carmspack

for the same reason that Pohranicni Straze and guide dog programs and RCMP and British police and New Zealand police and even the collective of German herders , whose livelihood it was to herd, bred to replace when they had a need and often had one of their tried and tested favourite working dogs involved in the breeding. Because you get to fine tune and direct the direction you are taking , control as best as you can, and because you KNOW what you have in the most observed way. You can monitor if you are going where you want to go.
The same goes for racing sled dogs -- . These strains become known for a trait . That trait is produced reliably with predictability.


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## christinaekenn

carmspack said:


> for the same reason that Pohranicni Straze and guide dog programs and RCMP and British police and New Zealand police and even the collective of German herders , whose livelihood it was to herd, bred to replace when they had a need and often had one of their tried and tested favourite working dogs involved in the breeding. Because you get to fine tune and direct the direction you are taking , control as best as you can, and because you KNOW what you have in the most observed way. You can monitor if you are going where you want to go.
> The same goes for racing sled dogs -- . These strains become known for a trait . That trait is produced reliably with predictability.


Thoughtful and VERY well explained. Thank you! This is the same with some old time herding folk and border collies...I remember visiting an old shepherd who had been breeding for about 30 years. He could say with high certainty what you would get down from each line that he had worked himself for years, especially if the litter was linebred to a degree on one of his favorite working dogs.


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## gagsd

christinaekenn..... Were you at this year's WUSV? If so, did you meet or see any of the dogs, including Witz, off the field?


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## christinaekenn

Yes I was there! I got to meet several of the dogs, including the winner, Henk. Who was also in the parade I did not get a chance for a personal encounter with Witz but a friend of mine did meet him and his handler.


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## gagsd

Any chance of some first or second hand observations?


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## christinaekenn

of Witz off the field you mean? I will ask my friend. Not sure how much interaction she had with him.

I met all of the USA team's dogs and know some more personally than just the WUSV so I can give some more insight there. The winner, Henk, appeared to be one heck of a stable dog also. He was in the very chaotic parade where I first met him. After he ran his last routine, he was also taken into the stands where people were coming up to pet him and congratulate the handler.


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