# Are treats a fact of life?



## Ozymandiasmv (Oct 3, 2018)

Okay experts, help a newbie out....

We're expecting to bring an 8 week old GSD home the Friday after Thanksgiving. So naturally I'm doing a TON of pre-work on training, especially basic puppy training and PKC, housebreaking, etc.

The New Skete books talk about using verbal and physical praise alone and not using treats. yet everything I read online, and every training video I see shows owners using treats. I'm just wondering if anyone out there has been able to train their GSD puppy without treats. 

Let me hear your stories! Am I out of my mind for even pondering this?

Oz


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think the question shouldn't be CAN you train a puppy without using treats, but rather why wouldn't you use food to train? If you have a food motivated puppy (and most are - food is a primary reinforcer since dogs need to eat to live), use food. If you have a play motivated puppy, use toys. Obviously, if your puppy is motivated by food AND play, use both, which is what I do. But that doesn't mean that I don't also use a lot of praise, my puppy is most engaged when I use everything I have - my face, my voice, my body language, and also lots and lots of reinforcing with food and play. The more engaged she is, the more fun both of us are having and the faster our training goes.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Short answer: treats and toys are in. New Skeet is OUT,


The New Skeet books were forward thinking when they were first published sometime around 1970? as a move away from "yank and crank". But my advise regarding them --- put them in the recycle bin or trash. Do not send them to a resale shop. 



There's lots better books out there. My favorite is Sheila Booth's _Purely Positive: Companion to Competition_ -- then there is Pat Miller who has a lot out there. As you've found, there's a lot available on line from really good resources too. 



Yes, treats, toys supplement praise as rewards. 



You are only out of your mind for having picked up the New Skeet books....  



Congrats on the anticipation of a new pup.


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

Good question, I'm always accused of over treating when training...

...because Saint has developed the bad habit of always noseing my hand, esp when he's behind me looking for treats.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Forget about the monks. A good book to start a *pup* is The power of positive dog training from Pat Miller. As he gets older you may have to use corrections (for behavior he already knows and refuses to comply) and start replacing treats for play and praise.
He will let you know and we can help you on line.
Use this time to find a good trainer. Personally I don't allow my pups to join the free play puppy sessions.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

saintbob said:


> Good question, I'm always accused of over treating when training...
> 
> ...because Saint has developed the bad habit of always noseing my hand, esp when he's behind me looking for treats.


That is a very easy fix.  Teach him that the presence of food, or a chewy, or a toy, is a cue to ignore it and look at you instead. I reinforce eye contact so heavily from the beginning that it's a default behavior, even for my 9-1/2 month old puppy. She knows she can stare at a ball all day and I'm not going to throw it. But if she looks at ME, I mark it (yes!), and we start to play. When she brings it back she has to give it up, sit, and make eye contact again.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Read all you want just don't get stuck in one set way of doing things regardless of what you plan to accomplish. I learn something new with all my dogs, even my old timers will surprise me every now and then with a new "challenge" keep and open mind and adapt as you go!


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Since I've been around long enough and owned shepherds before "positive reinforcement" was popular....yes I've trained dogs without using treats....because that's how the first dog trainer...."trained" me.......some dogs respond great to praise-praise-praise....they live to please their person ( I've had a couple).....BUT most dogs who are motivated by food even a little bit respond better to treats and praise...they don't get bored as quickly during sessions so they learn quicker and progress faster to get them where you want them to be.... a few dogs really don't care about treats but the majority do....in the end do what works best for you AND the dog in front of you......JMO but to rule out even trying treats is pretty old school thinking


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Keep in mind what the requirements are for the Monks' dogs. Are they the same as yours? Their dogs basically need to follow them around and calmly lay at their feet. My dogs are much more to me than that, and I want them enthusiastically engaging with me, not just staying out of the way.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Using food rewards allows you to do a LOT of stuff without ever having to put any pressure on your pup. You can do it other ways too, but in my opinion often food is the way that is most enjoyable and with least conflict.

For instance to teach a dog to sit, you can just raise the food up over their head and when they look up the butt goes down. Transfer that to a hand signal, then to a verbal, and voila you've got a dog who can sit who wasn't physically manipulated to get them there.

One of the biggest pitfalls I think is that people don't know how to not become dependent on the food. And possibly also don't know to use some of their dog's rations for training so the dog isn't being over fed. move to an intermittent reinforcement schedule, and learn how to be a bit wily in where you keep and how you retrieve the food rewards so the dog doesn't become one of those who will not give you the time of day unless they see a bait bag on you.

Bottom line, I absolutely use food, and I think it's a great way to train.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga was our first German Shepherd and the first 'real dog' we ever had to train. We knew nothing about training and were not going to use "trainers" as we live on an isolated ranch. So I found the internet trainer Don Sullivan. You can google him. We got his training DVDs that come with a mild plastic sort of a prong collar. Don Sullivan does not use treats, the rewards are praise and play. It is based on having a relationship with the dog and the fact that they want to please us. Another thing, all the issues you might come across are addressed and you can go back and replay that part.When a dog knows the command and you KNOW they know the command and they decide to disobey, only then is a leash correction given. Then you move on and the dog gets another chance to do it right. You show you are pleased by talking to them in a happy voice and giving them shoulder strokes. By the age of 18 months Inga knew and was proofed in 30 commands, even circus tricks, and is a working ranch dog. They are amazingly intelligent animals.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I cut my teeth on old style Koehler method and I was very resistant to training with treats and toys. I started slowly testing treat methods with the basics of training and was really impressed with the results, the dogs learned much faster.

I recently saw this post on Facebook by Dave Kroyer: "Ya.... don’t worry about the fact it takes 6-8 months for one behavior to become somewhat instilled in the dogs long term memory. Not to mention proofed. But sure go ahead and be that exception to years and years of science and technology of applied behavior. It’s ok. It’s bookface. There are also monsters and chubacabras. I saw one."

So be patient with your puppy, and kind. Don't expect short cuts to bring long term results. I highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

You said you are bringing home an 8 week old puppy. I would worry less about training and more about bonding.

One of the things I see a lot is that people get baby puppies and start right into training while ignoring the relationship. Everything is fine and then one of two problems pop up around 18 months, either the dog goes "flat" and you see the robot dogs trailing beside owners with no spark left or the pup rises up and flat out challenges you and you have nothing in the bag because the dog has learned that it must be rewarded for everything and doing it's own thing is now more rewarding.
When I raise pups that's all I do, I raise them. They learn boundaries and rules. We talk about trust and teamwork. We cover what is acceptable and unacceptable. We work on crate and potty, moms hands are not chew toys, food on plates belongs to humans, jumping gets you ignored, barriers mean stop. Easy stuff. Any training gets taught by luring, sit is usually the only thing we really study although the groundwork for recall usually gets put in place through games. 
I like to tell people to look up Charles Eisenmann. I don't agree that all dogs accept his methods, but he stated clearly that he was glad he knew nothing about training dogs when he started training London or things would have been very different.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

We're expecting to bring an 8 week old GSD home the Friday after Thanksgiving. So naturally I'm doing a TON of pre-work on training, especially basic puppy training and PKC, housebreaking, etc.

I guess housebreaking is training, and YES I personally recommend treats for sure... fastest way to get a response.

IMO. I feel that you just want the puppy to get to know you, his new surroundings, and let him/her just be themselves. " potty train is it"

You kinda want to see how easy or difficult it might be when you chose to start training. You also will see if your puppy is food driven which will be helpful. You also want to see if he/she is a cling-on, or maybe likes to be on it's own. Is he or she high drive or low key. 

Everything is going to be what it is and all you have to do is enjoy and take notes so you know how to do what will work best for you. There is no right or wrong way to train a dog . TREATS, NO TREATS, CLICKER, HAND SIGNALS, ITALIAN, FRENCH, ETC. there is only what you are expecting from your dog, and how much time do you plan to put forth to accomplish your goal. dog's are creatures of habit so to me it's all about CONSISTENCY !!!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Yes Sabimom. Thats exactly it. Its about the relationship. You don't need to be a treat dispenser. There are many ways to train a dog. We never feed Inga treats from our hands. If she gets a goody it is dropped in her bowl. Sometimes tasty items mysteriously fall like mana from heaven. She doesn't have to do anything for it. I don't have to be packing treats around. What if they are attracted what is to them higher value misbehavior like taking off after a rabbit and running across the road? Wheres your cookie going to get you then? Because we have used balanced no treets needed training I can call her off a chase with a thunderous NO! and OFF! No treat meeded. But she returns to us with lavish loving eyes for her reward- a love festival.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I loved hand feeding my puppy. Playing so many games with his food. I'm just getting the hang of capturing behavior. I mean always I praised good behavior but I think that solely praise isn't enough. Treats and toys go along way. You can use toys when you want intensity and food when you want calm. I think food is a good convenient reward. 
I think not necessarily treats, but a dog learning for food is a huge beneficial part of training. If you can use them intermittently down the road to maintain the work done and history of reinforcement it's a good fact of life to have.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I use toys and treats. Seems silly to me to limit yourself. Scarlet is crazy food motivated, probably the most food motivated dog I’ve ever had. She’ll also work for praise because she’s very bonded with me, but I can teach a behavior quicker with treats.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah I remember reading the newskete book before getting our first gsd pup - max. I was not a fan of the book but it did talk about crating your pup near your bed at night which I found very helpful. I used/use treatsespecially when beginning training. Builds motivation. Depending on pups- Luna preferred treats when max was older I use ball in place of treats for super motivation because he is crazy about his ball. I remember when max would not do anything if I did not have a treat or ball. Then it was time for corrections then treats and balls were used at times and at times they were not. All this took time. 

As I lazily am reading this thread while not getting out of this chair - made me want to call max over- I have no food or ball in my hand. He is super focused though and listens well as he scans me and finds out I’m empty handed. He got many praises because he was super cute with his head tilt and all I had to get his ball for a quick game of catch! Sometimes he just gets a crazy dance of praise! He is a dog who is very motivated and seems to enjoy learning things. 
https://youtu.be/KPKimMaVKuE


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I've had dogs that aren't super food motivated and with my female I don't like the headspace she gets in when I use food. So I personally use praise mainly and play. I give treats and use traits as well but it's more as a random surprise/reward or more like the definition of a treat instead of a reward. I personally have more fun with my dog working with praise and play training style and it works well for my dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> When I raise pups that's all I do, I raise them. They learn boundaries and rules. We talk about trust and teamwork. We cover what is acceptable and unacceptable. We work on crate and potty, moms hands are not chew toys, food on plates belongs to humans, jumping gets you ignored, barriers mean stop.


But all that stuff *IS* training. Training isn't just rote, boring drills with a lot of corrections, it's teaching the puppy what's expected, it's building the relationship, establishing a bond, teaching rules and boundaries.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But all that stuff *IS* training. Training isn't just rote, boring drills with a lot of corrections, it's teaching the puppy what's expected, it's building the relationship, establishing a bond, teaching rules and boundaries.




I think there is a rush with new people to teach a bunch of commands. It’s all about sit, down, stay. Getting control of your puppy. Hopefully when they come to this forum, they’ll learn that their relationship with their dog is the foundation. The rest of that stuff will follow.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But all that stuff *IS* training. Training isn't just rote, boring drills with a lot of corrections, it's teaching the puppy what's expected, it's building the relationship, establishing a bond, teaching rules and boundaries.


Yes. But people get all worked up about it. I see 6 month old puppies that never got to be puppies! And then a year later I see same dog acting out. Puppies are supposed to be little terrors. They should be stealing your crap and getting in trouble. They should be launching sneak attacks and being bad.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

My pup was trained with treats, she is 2 and performs her commands speedily with treats, but without treats she performs the commands but is kinda sluggish and definitely not as quick and eager as she does it when given treats. Especially with the bark command, with treats she will bark continually continue I tell her to quiet, but if without treats she just gives one bark and is done even though she knows she is supposed to hold the bark.... Anyone else has this problem?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Treats are fun, and are good for starting a pup although not necessary. But one thing I've discovered, if you want a command to be proofed and solid, train with pressure/markers only. You'll see a difference, and so will your dog. I do this for down-stay, for example. Because that is a non-negotiable, emergency command.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Yes. But people get all worked up about it. I see 6 month old puppies that never got to be puppies! And then a year later I see same dog acting out. Puppies are supposed to be little terrors. They should be stealing your crap and getting in trouble. They should be launching sneak attacks and being bad.




I’ll admit I do love a bad puppy. 

Every time my son came over when Scarlet was young, he said “that dog is awful”. Yep. She was a beast. My breeder’s little grandson said she was “feisty”, lol. She turned 2 in August, and while she’s still very feisty and talkative, she does know how to behave when I want her to. We bonded very early. It shows.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

DaBai said:


> My pup was trained with treats, she is 2 and performs her commands speedily with treats, but without treats she performs the commands but is kinda sluggish and definitely not as quick and eager as she does it when given treats. Especially with the bark command, with treats she will bark continually continue I tell her to quiet, but if without treats she just gives one bark and is done even though she knows she is supposed to hold the bark.... Anyone else has this problem?


This is what I see when people get young puppies and start with the sit stay come heel. Look my puppy is 4 months old and knows 20 commands. Puppies develop a relationship with the treats not the treat dispenser. By 18 months you are constantly upping the ante because the pup does not give a rats behind what you what, it wants treats. There is no respect and no desire to please you, and really why should there be? There was no time taken to get to know each other, just an owner barking commands at a dog. 


Not using you literally, and perhaps not the issue with this dog but it just perfectly illustrates what I said, they go flat and you are struggling to find the personality that you just finished trampling all over.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> This is what I see when people get young puppies and start with the sit stay come heel. Look my puppy is 4 months old and knows 20 commands. Puppies develop a relationship with the treats not the treat dispenser. By 18 months you are constantly upping the ante because the pup does not give a rats behind what you what, it wants treats. There is no respect and no desire to please you, and really why should there be? There was no time taken to get to know each other, just an owner barking commands at a dog.
> 
> 
> Not using you literally, and perhaps not the issue with this dog but it just perfectly illustrates what I said, they go flat and you are struggling to find the personality that you just finished trampling all over.


IDK, my trainer has a young working line pup and that pup was super obedient and knew a bunch of commands since young, but she didn't have this issue as far as I can tell. But I think my trainer switched from food to toy after a while. Also all puppy classes taught a bunch of commands from when pups were 10 weeks old to 16 weeks old with treats and the instructor asked us to reinforce those commands taught at home via treats too. Anyway, I did try to teach my pup lots of commands when she was young but I am not convinced that this is the main culprit here. Maybe it is, but I don't feel she has no personality nor that she doesn't want to please me. She wags her tail and come to me demanding petting when I randomly smile at her and if I stop petting while she is enjoying it she literally complains and nudges my hand! But I do feel like she has little respect for me since she knows she is not supposed to eat stuff on tables but still does even in my presence! When I catch her in the act she would stop but would try to steal it again when I am not paying attention.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

DaBai said:


> My pup was trained with treats, she is 2 and performs her commands speedily with treats, but without treats she performs the commands but is kinda sluggish and definitely not as quick and eager as she does it when given treats. Especially with the bark command, with treats she will bark continually continue I tell her to quiet, but if without treats she just gives one bark and is done even though she knows she is supposed to hold the bark.... Anyone else has this problem?



Treats have become part of the cue for your dog. This is the same issue people have when there dog will do commands at home, but in a new place they seem to ignore their owner. A cue is not just a word, it can also include your body movement, a certain environment, ect.. Check out Denise Fenzi's book Beyond the Back Yard: Train Your Dog to Listen Anytime, Anywhere! It is step by step about teaching your dog how to work around distraction and without treats on you.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dubai- using balance with corrections when needed in addition to rewards after the training session do something fun whether it’s a game of tug or ball fetch, hide n seek, piles of treats,a just walk or just lavishes of affection or mix and match. Especially if we are out Somewhere they know many different adventures are ahead. 


Bonding is the most important. at a pups age sit down tricks etc. make up few minutes of the day. so think all pups have different personalities some just soak up things like sponges and almost demand to learn things. Learning sit and down or stay will not make the pup any more obedient. It would just offer some kind of structure or a different form of interaction with you theoughout the day. Especially in the winter. If you have a rascal he will be a rascal regardless I can guarantee that lol!!! He will keeping you busy needing to learn not to jump in the Christmas tree it’s not the Black Forest or buckets are not pools and no they can’t dive into it lol! Helping to learn rules of house many YouTube crate games, spot or place, leave it. Susan Garrett had great recallers videos and setting up your pup to make right choices. Their are many podcasts out there to I remember listening to leerburg and ferndog just to name a few while waiting to bring our first gsd pup home! So exciting!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My thoughts on this are if I went to work Monday thru Friday and on Friday, instead of real payment, I got an Atta Girl. I"m not coming back on Monday. So why would you NOT pay your dog?

I think the problem comes when people dont' fade out the reward to proof the exercise I never the away the reward completely but I do make them work harder for it and I proof it.

The newer training methods use luring and shaping to teach. They use food and toys to engage. and the results are consistent.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If treats and toys make learning more fun for my pups, so they LOVE to learn new things with me, and learn if fun and fast with JOY!!! Then it's treats and toys all the way.

They are used all the time to teach NEW things (tons of teeny treats and fun play) but you then start (please read up on the 'when') randomly treat for things they know, and later may not treat at all but only use a toy... or.....

Finding a GREAT set of positive puppy training classes make this so much easier for the human part of the training  and then our pups learn so much faster and are doing the behaviors because they really WANT to do them. Not because they 'have' to do it.

This is so important for training the first year or so with our puppies!

Great sites are 

https://thehappypuppysite.com/how-to-use-and-choose-effective-rewards-to-train-your-puppy/

Leerburg | Using Treats in Your Dog Training has some good history of how 'traditional' training didn't use treats and why we can learn and do better


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Beau likes treats ok, and will work for them for short sessions if he’s really hungry. Not at all treat motivated if not hungry. He will work hard at learning, and for longer sessions, when ball or tug play is the reward.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

DaBai said:


> My pup was trained with treats, she is 2 and performs her commands speedily with treats, but without treats she performs the commands but is kinda sluggish and definitely not as quick and eager as she does it when given treats. Especially with the bark command, with treats she will bark continually continue I tell her to quiet, but if without treats she just gives one bark and is done even though she knows she is supposed to hold the bark.... Anyone else has this problem?


To me this sounds like improper use of food. you have to transition from one reinforcement schedule to another and you do have to proof without food and without it on your person etc.

Often one of the most important factors I think is whether the dog sees the food before they are given a command.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Forgot to add that we should be going from a constant reinforcement when they start learning, to a variable reinforcement of treats once they have started to 'get it'.

More info on ---> Schedules of Reinforcement » ClickerTrainUSA


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## Ozymandiasmv (Oct 3, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> You said you are bringing home an 8 week old puppy. I would worry less about training and more about bonding.
> 
> One of the things I see a lot is that people get baby puppies and start right into training while ignoring the relationship. Everything is fine and then one of two problems pop up around 18 months, either the dog goes "flat" and you see the robot dogs trailing beside owners with no spark left or the pup rises up and flat out challenges you and you have nothing in the bag because the dog has learned that it must be rewarded for everything and doing it's own thing is now more rewarding.
> When I raise pups that's all I do, I raise them. They learn boundaries and rules. We talk about trust and teamwork. We cover what is acceptable and unacceptable. We work on crate and potty, moms hands are not chew toys, food on plates belongs to humans, jumping gets you ignored, barriers mean stop. Easy stuff. Any training gets taught by luring, sit is usually the only thing we really study although the groundwork for recall usually gets put in place through games.
> I like to tell people to look up Charles Eisenmann. I don't agree that all dogs accept his methods, but he stated clearly that he was glad he knew nothing about training dogs when he started training London or things would have been very different.


Very well-put. I did not intend to state that we are going to train right away. Bonding Bonding Bonding, Engagement, Engagement, Engagement. That's what this amazing forum has taught me so far. LOVE how ENGAGED and communicative everyone here is!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

One of the most important things I think I ever learned about dog training was back when we had Cassidy - let the dog tell you what is most reinforcing. Don't pick what YOU think your dog should work for, pick what your dog _wants_ to work for. And then use that! A simple concept, which can be overlooked. The basics of dog training are simple, although not necessarily always easy. There are a lot of moving parts, so you need to adapt to the dog in front of you. 

Don't complicate it by deciding you don't want to use this method or that method when your dog may respond beautifully to it. And one of the most simple concepts is that dogs do what works. If it works to get a reward, s/he is going to do more of it. So reinforce the behavior you want. 

This is an impulse game I love, I used to do it with Halo's lunch kibble when she was a puppy: 






Susan Garrett is a top agility trainer and competitor. She does not specify eye contact in the IYC game, but I like to add it - the dog needs to look away from what's in my hand and look at me. Basically, it's a default, uncued "leave it". When you're using the leave it command the dog typically does not get the thing, whatever it is, but you're not actually telling the dog what to do here. 

My dogs learn from the time they're puppies that if I have something for them that they want, the way to get it is to sit and look at me. It can be their food bowl, a toy, a chewie of some sort, or even real life rewards such as access to outside. Sit and look at me, and I release to go out (with the exception of a puppy being housetrained, who needs to go out NOW!), or to come inside, or to go for a walk, or to get into or out of the car..... anything I can think of that my dogs want, I find a way to make them do something for me first. Obviously, with a brand new puppy this needs to be modified to fit within their capability and attention span and then made more challenging gradually.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post, Debbie!


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## Ozymandiasmv (Oct 3, 2018)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> One of the most important things I think I ever learned about dog training was back when we had Cassidy - let the dog tell you what is most reinforcing. Don't pick what YOU think your dog should work for, pick what your dog _wants_ to work for. And then use that! A simple concept, which can be overlooked. The basics of dog training are simple, although not necessarily always easy. There are a lot of moving parts, so you need to adapt to the dog in front of you.
> 
> Don't complicate it by deciding you don't want to use this method or that method when your dog may respond beautifully to it. And one of the most simple concepts is that dogs do what works. If it works to get a reward, s/he is going to do more of it. So reinforce the behavior you want.
> 
> ...


Awesome post 

But the newbie in me is still noticing how these dogs are rewarded EVERY time with a treat, yet something in me wants to see the same control out of these dogs even if the reward is just a "good doggie!" and some pets and play. I presume that intermittent/random reward schedules will allow for transition to that kind of system, but I'd love to see Susan talk about that. After all, there are times I imagine, when I'll want the behavior (eg: control or restraint) but won't be packing handfuls of liver snax. But the transition to that point is rarely seen in training videos that I've seen anyway.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Have fun with the puppy and you'll be fine Oz.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ozymandiasmv said:


> But the newbie in me is still noticing how these dogs are rewarded EVERY time with a treat, yet something in me wants to see the same control out of these dogs even if the reward is just a "good doggie!" and some pets and play. I presume that intermittent/random reward schedules will allow for transition to that kind of system, but I'd love to see Susan talk about that.


Yes, of course. But don't be in a huge hurry to phase out rewards. As a general rule of thumb, the newer and/or more difficult (well known behaviors but with additional challenges of distance, duration, or distraction, which should not all be added at once), the higher the rate of reinforcement. The easier and/or older and well established behaviors, the lower the rate of reinforcement. Cava is 9 months old. I don't give her a treat every time she sits on cue, especially at home, but something like working on leash skills out in public, I'm still going to be rewarding heavily.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> My thoughts on this are if I went to work Monday thru Friday and on Friday, instead of real payment, I got an Atta Girl. I"m not coming back on Monday. So why would you NOT pay your dog?
> 
> I think the problem comes when people dont' fade out the reward to proof the exercise I never the away the reward completely but I do make them work harder for it and I proof it.
> 
> The newer training methods use luring and shaping to teach. They use food and toys to engage. and the results are consistent. /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif


Couldn't agree more.

Although the one i compete with now, he expects his ball on a rope and though I am sure he would keep working for nothing or for food only, I do think his performance would suffer. What he wants is the ball.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Ozymandiasmv said:


> Awesome post
> 
> But the newbie in me is still noticing how these dogs are rewarded EVERY time with a treat, yet something in me wants to see the same control out of these dogs even if the reward is just a "good doggie!" and some pets and play. I presume that intermittent/random reward schedules will allow for transition to that kind of system, but I'd love to see Susan talk about that. After all, there are times I imagine, when I'll want the behavior (eg: control or restraint) but won't be packing handfuls of liver snax. But the transition to that point is rarely seen in training videos that I've seen anyway.


Well, it could look something like this.


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