# Got a prong collar and I'm nervous!



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

So....puppy almost pulled me off my feet again today, for the second day in a row.







When I went to the store to get food, I got a prong collar, too.

And I'm nervous! And upset, too. Almost everything we've done with her until now has been positive, positive, happy happy fun! The only time she's heard "no" until last week was when she chased the cat. 

But she has turned into a pulling machine. The trainer (where we go to daycare) has a reactive dog class starting in February and has recommended we go (as has my dog-training friend). The trainer is all-positive. There's no way I can tell her I have a prong collar. We're currently using the harness we got at the trainer's, and it just doesn't work. She can haul me around.

I've spent so much time and energy getting this dog healthy and happy, I'm disappointed in myself that I haven't trained her as well as I should have, and, well, I don't want to hurt my dog or cause her pain. We don't hit in our family, you know? 

85-90% of the time puppy does *great*! We have fun on our walks! She's had NILF since the day we brought her home. But she goes ballistic when she sees another dog. Today a dog in a car started barking at her, and puppy tried to *jump into the street* lunging and barking at her.

I'm at the end of *my* leash! I can't not walk her, so I have to have another option. 

But I'm also very nervous about the reaction my (highly reactive/sensitive) puppy might have when she hits the prongs for the first time. I absolutely don't want her to be hurt or afraid. The only corrections we use (for minor infractions, like trying to get up from a "wait") is saying "ah-ah." I'm worried that adding a physical correction will upset her.









Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

You can get rubber tips for the prongs if they make you nervous, but they really don't hurt her. Let her slowly pull into the collar on your next walk so it isn't suddenly a shock to her if she lunges and discovers what she's wearing. 

She'll probably adapt surprisingly well, but if you are anxious, she'll pick up on it and be upset, too. Hope it goes well!

Edit: I just noticed you said she wears a harness? What kind, the Easy-walk that you attach the leash in front? I think harnesses of any kind really just give a dog more leverage to pull with. How is she with a regular flat collar correction?


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

I'm not sure what the brand of the harness is, it has a martingale type thing in front that tightens and loosens that the leash clips to.

We've never corrected her with a collar, ever.







She may have hit the end of her leash once by accident. She's very well-behaved most of the time, and it hasn't been necessary to do anything like this until now.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm all for prongs, they are a miracle invention, but I also believe in using the minimum necessary for the individual dog. 

You said she's sensitive, so how about a hard leash pop (regular collar) and VERY stern Ah-Ah! when she's being unruly? Then as soon as she looks at you, give her a treat/praise like she won the lottery. 

I just wouldn't jump to using a prong if you haven't tried other methods first, especially if she's a softie, but if the above method doesn't work, go ahead and try it. Some people will tell you not to correct, but to slowly desensitize her and work under gradually increasing distractions. But, IMO if she's pulling you into the street, you need something that will work asap, which usually means some form of correction. Just because it's a serious safety issue.


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

I really, really don't want to "pop" my dog.







As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong!), the prong collars allow the dog to self-correct.

So...dogs, like horses, naturally lean into pressure. One of the earliest and most-reinforced things we do with horses, even when they're babies, is to teach them to move away from pressure. We do this, and practice it, every single day, because it is so very important.

I haven't done a very good job of teaching my dog this important information. She's fairly good at it, but I think if I use a flat collar and she pulls, she will pull harder. I think this is pretty natural. Because I feel that way, I've also actively avoided situations in which she would feel restrained and feel like she had to pull. 

The trainer said the harness would allow her to self-correct, but even if I can manage to stay still when she lunges, she'll hit the end, bounce up and do it again. It is very distressing.

I was hoping that she would be well-trained enough that we would never have a pulling situation. I really do feel that I've failed my dog in this.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

We all have our opinions on how best to teach our pups, so by all means continue what you feel is best. 

Go ahead and try out the prong and allow her to self-correct, a lot of people use it for that purpose. She'll begin to pull, and it will tighten a bit and the prongs will give the sensation of another dog's jaws around her neck, which should make her stop. Good luck!


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: thaliasmomI was hoping that she would be well-trained enough that we would never have a pulling situation. I really do feel that I've failed my dog in this.


No, don't feel like that. She's a dog, and they naturally want to pull towards something interesting. The fact that she wants to pull doesn't mean you've failed or been a bad mom. It's how you deal with it that matters, and you seem to be very determined and willing to work with that. For instance, you have her involved with trainers. A lot of people don't care to put the effort in and you can see them daily, being dragged down the street by their unruly dog.

You're doing great, don't get discouraged!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Prongs are great. They have earned the nickname "power steering for dogs" for a reason. There are a few problems, though. It's all too easy to rely on them instead of TEACHING the dog and sometimes they can fire up a dog even more. Also, it seems all but the Herm Sprengers have poorly milled ends which could sometimes be sharp. If it's not a Herm Sprenger, I recommend returning it and ordering one online (I *really* recommend the HS prong with the quick clasp- so easy). The ends are nicely rounded and the collar is high quality. Jeffers has them for a very reasonable price.

Having said all that, continuing the training is a MUST. I have a very dog-reactive dog and I tell you, the prong does nothing except make him very uppity. It helps with the control, but it does nothing for making him relax around other dogs. I still use the prong, but I now have it on the dead ring (had it on dead, then live, now back) and am making a concerted effort to have him outside and clicker-train him while other dogs are around. When walking, if he gets slightly ahead, I will stop dead- walk's over! I then continue on and repeat. He's learning that if he wants to walk, he has to do it on MY terms. It's slow going but I can tell there is a BIG difference in his overall mood with the stop and go than with jerking on the prong. I still use the prong, but I'm always glad to use it less.

Regarding your "all-positive" trainer, I would move to a trainer who is more accepting of various collars AND corrections for this phase in training. There is nothing wrong with positive training and motivational training (quite the opposite) but it's a very lopsided program that does not introduce corrections and discipline. Find a positive, motivational trainer who understands corrections are necessary, knows how and when to apply them, and can fit the correction to the situation. So long as you teach motivationally and positively and save the fair corrections after the dog thoroughly knows and understands the command, you won't be doing any harm.

It does sound like you let your pup get too far before starting to correct. Do you wait until she's lunging or do you try to distract her away from the dog the second her eyes set on it? If you correct when she's exploding, everything you do will be too little, too late, or even detrimental. Catch her while she's thinking about reacting, not before.

How is she in daycare? Is she playing with other dogs? If she's fine with other dogs in this situation, she could just be lunging because she wants to play with the dogs more than she wants to play with you. This isn't good! If she doesn't like to be with the dogs at daycare or if they overwhelm her, she is defending herself. This is also not good! It would be wise to examine how she acts around other dogs at daycare to decide what to do next. If she gets bullied, pull her out of any dog-dog interactions and board her by herself, saving any dog interactions for training classes. If she just wants to go play with them, make yourself more interesting! Does she like to play tug? Keep a tug toy on you and ONLY whip it out when other dogs are around and engage her in a really great game, then let her win and strut her stuff when the dogs are safely out of her reaction zone (you must still "win" the toy at the end of the game for control purposes). If she likes balls, whip out the balls. Whatever she loves more than anything, have them on hand to distract her. Work on manners around other dogs in training classes.

It's a GREAT thing that you signed up for a class specifically for dog-reactive dogs! I'd give it a try with the all-positive trainer and see how it goes. If your dog just cannot handle it without corrections, seek a balanced trainer. If she does well in the class, discuss with your trainer that you had to get a prong for outside of class and you're looking for assistance both with and without it. If the trainer freaks about the prong, definitely get a new trainer. If she tries to help and point you in the direction of a trainer who knows more or other resources, all-positive or not, you may have found yourself a good trainer. 

Your puppy will probably yelp and act very shocked when she first feels the prong in action. Try not to let her hit the end of the leash full speed for the first time- go with her and ease her into it as much as possible. Don't worry if she yelps or fusses- she'll soon grow used to it. Don't baby her, don't go "oooh nooooo, I'm sooooorry, I didn't hurt you, did I?!" as that will just make her worried and nervous that something IS wrong. She'll do fine. If you're concerned about the prong hurting her, put it around your leg or even your neck and jerk it. It won't feel bad at all. Then remember that dogs have quite thick skin AND a good coat of fur to boot.









Finally, how old is your pup again? If your pooch is younger than 10-12 months, it would really be wise to find other ways of teaching and training for now.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Great post, Diana! I didn't feel much like going into any real detail, so I was hoping someone else would step up to the plate!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:I really, really don't want to "pop" my dog. \:\( As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong!), the prong collars allow the dog to self-correct.


They can, but you NEED to train your dog! Use it as a tool to train, not as a crutch. If your dog only learns that hitting the end of the leash is bad, she may come to realize that it's only bad when the prong is on and she won't obey when she's off the prong. If your trainer tells you to wait for the dog to self-correct, you are MANAGING the problem but you are not TRAINING, which is the SOLUTION to the problem. Please do not fall into this rut! Take an active role and understand that popping the collar is fine! Look at how dogs communicate to each other- they will use body language, then growls, and if all else fails, a snap or even a bite. The prong simulates this bite very well so it's a lot more natural than a no-pull harness or a halti. Use whatever works with your dog, but remember that no tool is a substitute to not train. Do not rely on self-correcting. You can use it to your advantage, but the second you rely on the dog figuring out the corrections, you also begin to leave it up to the dog to decide when to behave. You want your pup to learn to obey you and trust you regardless of collar (or lack thereof)! Train to that goal.









You will do fine. You have realized the problem and you are taking steps to correct it. This is millions of times better than most people who just deal with it and let the dog pull and lunge or even those that don't even realize a problem exists! 



> Quote:I've spent so much time and energy getting this dog healthy and happy, I'm disappointed in myself that I haven't trained her as well as I should have, and, well, I don't want to hurt my dog or cause her pain. We don't hit in our family, you know?


I'm sure you've done well.







No one is asking you to hit the dog (absolutely not), but dogs really do understand firm corrections that are on their level. Mine understands that when I freeze my posture, begin to stare, and hold my breath, I am unhappy. He'll stop and move away some of the time. If I escalate to a low growl, he will move away. I use this when I am eating and he is crossing the line to begging or he's forcing himself on me. This is their language and they understand this MUCH better than any "ah ah" or "no." At least that's the way with mine! Dogs need discipline and corrections- they need negative consequences. They respect a firm, fair, trustworthy leader, one that they know will keep the pack in line at all times fairly. 

When I was growing up, I had friends who were raised without much discipline. They screamed at their parents and misbehaved a lot. I was raised with lots of discipline (could have used more) and had extremely rare spankings. I knew that if I yelled back at my parents my head would be rolling on the floor even though they never once hit me (I don't count spanks). I respected them completely and trusted them, and now as an adult I really wish they did more to keep me in line as time went on, but I'm thankful that they were not part of the 100% positive/no corrections crowd. I think it is the same with dogs.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

You totally took all the words out of my head, and put them out there so perfectly clearly...I don't know what this board would do without the articulate people like you and Chris W!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:.I don't know what this board would do without the articulate people like you and Chris W!


No no, I am not near worthy to be on par with her. She's extremely experienced. Take whatever she says over me any day! But I appreciate the kind words and am glad that I can be articulate when I drone on and on with my novella posts.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

My problem is that mine are often long, too, but they aren't always clear and they kinda ramble... lol!


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

Those are a lot of great answers for me to get while I was away for one quick shower!







I was thinking about all of this while I was in there (as one does...) and I realized that this pulling went from "hm, this is a problem" to "We are in DANGER!!" when we started using the harness. It took a remarkably short time for it to happen, and it happened during a crucial part of my dog's life.

This is totally my fault, for not recognizing it, but I'm a little irked at the trainer, too, for not recognizing that my dog isn't the "will work for food" type.
>sigh<

I realized, too, that when I said I failed my dog, what I failed at was not at teaching her what pressure meant, but that I am the center of the universe. The root problem, of course, is that she isn't paying attention to what *I'm* doing when she's lunging about.





































We definitely don't try to wait until she's lunging to do the current correction, which is walking the other way until she's calm, and then turning around and walking past offending dog again - but she can go from "hey, there's something interesting over there, did you see it mom?" to "alert!!!!!!" and lunging in what seems like nanoseconds.

If she was a horse, I'd be able to read her and prevent most of this, I think. I just don't know dog language very well, despite having them almost all my life. >sigh<

In answer to your specific questions, DianaM, she *loves* other dogs. She loves everyone, actually. She is very happy-go-lucky. But she does sometimes seem to be treading the line between "hey lets be bff!" and "I'm danger!" and "hey, I'm just a puppy! be nice to me!" --- and the problem is a million times worse when she's on a leash. When she is loose and with loose dogs, there is no problem (for which I am very grateful). But if there is a fence or a leash involved, its tough. She's 10.5 months old today. And she usually looks like this:









Thank you so much for the advice, and for reading my nattering on about this. Sometimes its hard to get the information out of all the emotion, I know.


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

PS. Funny the HS are the best. They're among the best horse bits, too. And you're dead on about the body language...I can stand off most pushy horses just by pinning my ears at them. Well, my figurative ears. It works, regardless.

I *can* learn this! Onward and upward!

Thank you so much!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

If you can handle a horse, you can tame this little beasty.







Remember your horse background- if you can read their body language, you can decipher the dog. I believe the DVD "Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas (spelling may be wrong, but it's definitely the DVD and not the book) may be a HUGE help for learning their body language. 

Lots of dogs that are fine with others off leash have leash aggression. Examine yourself: When other dogs appear on the scene, do you shorten and hasten your breathing (or even almost stop breathing), alter your pace, alter your voice, tense up, have jerkier movements, and tighten up the leash? Any of these or any combination of these will translate down the leash to your dog, especially the leash tightening. If you have something to concentrate on such as a toy to whip out to play with, you'll have something to focus on yourself that requires lots of movement to hopefully hide your true feelings. If your dog votes for the game, you'll relieve your stress and uncertainty by playing and your pooch will have confidence that you can control the situations. Of course, you cannot distract forever and that is why good training must be done.







It's good she loves other dogs. Be very thankful for that. She is about the right age for a prong so don't feel bad if you want to use one. If that's what it takes for her to start paying attention to you despite the distractions, that's what it takes, but always use these tools with the goal of eventually not needing them. 

But really, if you know how to communicate with a horse, you will be fine with the dog. A horse is prey and a dog is predator so there are differences, but you were able to learn the language of one and you will do the same with this one. If you feel your trainer let you down, no one is stopping you from shopping around for another. 

I saw that HS made bits, didn't know they were considered so highly!


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I'll keep mine short: Prongs are great. You have nothing to feel guilty about. Use this new tool in a positive way. Your dog will mirror your emotions. 

Use the prong for a year or so, or as long as you feel you need to. Then graduate to something else if you want to. This isn't the last training tool you'll ever use. It's just one of many.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, the cheaper ones have slightly sharper prongs, which is actually why I bought one from Petco to replace my HS. Nico needed something a bit "extra," and I didn't want to go with a dominant dog collar or E-collar. So glad I discovered the cheap prongs, LOL!


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You may find this informative and change how you think of the prong.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

If you haven,t already give the prong a try. My dog was a puller and as he grew it became harder and harder to control him. Bikes, joggers and squirrels started to become a problem.

My breeder suggested a prong, set high and tight. She also recommended a strong "pop". One walk, a few strong pops and that was it. His behavior was corrected. 

I kept the prong on for about a week, but never had to use it again. Timber is now 20 months old, and was probabkly 6-7 months which I used the prong.


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

It worked! 

She felt the prongs when I was putting it on her and whined some, which made me feel terrible...she has a lot of long hair, and it got caught, but eventually we got situated. She understood the concept right away - like in milliseconds. But she still had to test it out.







We got past barking dog house number one in record time, *eventually* quietly and calmly.

We didn't *quite* make it past barking dog house number two - there's a territorial pit-mix (really, really cute dog, actually) that is doing its best to keep people off its property. I had to put the collar on the live link when we got there. She had been going really nicely on the dead ring, but when we got there she just stood on her hind legs against the collar, and it was all I could do to pull her away - with me walking the other direction.









But I figured that if she was standing against it like that, it couldn't be too painful...she definitely felt it on the live link. She went from sitting to pulling, hit the collar and YELPED. It wasn't like she had a big pull/leap, either, I had the leash at less than a foot long. 

So we didn't make it past that house, but we did achieve sitting quietly, NOT on high alert, at the corner of the house, within view of the other dog. This is a huge deal for us!!!

The best part, though, was that I ran out of treats. A lot of our walking has been training the dog to eat treats in more and more stressful situations. I.e., first on the sidewalk in front of our house, then the next street over, then when there are people around, and so on. I've never run out of treats in all this time. But she was so good - she ate them all.







She thought she was the best dog ever- had her little tail fanning for most of the walk.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes! We have another convert! LOL!


----------



## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)




----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Super, one note is I will never forget the hair getting in the way.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Congrats on a successful first outing!


----------



## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

I don't know if I'm a convert...I still have major moral qualms about doing anything that deliberately causes suffering to another being. Especially my much-loved puppy. Especially because I created a situation in which I felt it came to our safety (can't walk her with harness, must walk her for sanity). I absolutely feel that it was and is my responsibility to be a good enough dog owner/trainer to not need to use pain to create the desired action in my dog.

I still feel this way, and wish I had learned enough, more quickly, to prevent the situation we're in now.









Do I feel like it is a good tool for us where we are now? Yes - my dog was *more calm* and *happier* on her walk. I got to say "Good Dog!" more often. That's all the proof I need.







But I still wish we weren't where we are. Hopefully I will learn enough now so that my next dog won't have to go through this lack of clarity.

Thank you all so much for your advice and support - the collar seems to be exactly what we need right now, and I really think I wouldn't have been able to do it without you.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Peanut butter, long cooking spoon...to help wean off. Perhaps?


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Thaliasmom, I'm so glad you "went there" and tried something that was beyond your normal comfort zone. But I'm still wondering why you seem to believe you did something wrong to "get to this point?" Your girl is just being a typical shep teen! Many dogs require a minor correction to learn to mind under strong distraction (especially when it's a safety issue), and it's usually only a temporary necessity until it becomes a habit to listen to you without the prong. You won't need it forever.

It doesn't/shouldn't reflect poorly on you that you need to "resort" to using a prong. It's just a tool that seems to work for your girl, and most importantly, helps set her up to succeed and get the praise that she so desires and deserves. You are now able to break her focus from the other dogs and redirect so she that she CAN get praised, meaning she is finally put in the position to LEARN how to behave properly and therefore move in the right direction. I'm glad you recognize this fact! 

And you aren't using *pain* to create the desired behavior, you are essentially (in dog language) tapping her on the shoulder to say,"Hey, little missy, Mom's talking to you here!" so that she can stop what she is doing and be able to listen to you. A correction doesn't necessarily mean pain. A woman taking her unruly toddler by the arm to pull him away from a store shelf is basically what you are doing.

Please don't worry about *hurting* her. Has she ever had a chance to rough-house with another big dog? You'd be amazed at how hard they bite each other's faces, ears, and necks, all in the name of FUN. 

I've often made the mistake of standing too close to a rowdy bunch at daycare and gotten nipped by mistake, and I'll tell you: it leaves a bruise and often can break skin! And this is playing, mind you!

Try the prong on your leg, through a pair of pants, remembering that dogs have an even thicker coat plus super thick, relatively insensitive skin on their necks. If it still bothers you, there are rubber caps that you can put on the tips of the prongs. Please don't feel guilty! Prongs are a legitimate and very popular training tool that many people use, and WE LOVE OUR BABIES, TOO!

Best of luck to you and your girl! Keep up the work and it won't be long until she'll be where you want her to be.


----------



## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

We have a young female shepherd that we recently adopted and she sounds very much like your girl. We tried a regular collar, a choke chain, and a Gentle Leader collar. She pulled with all three of them, although the Gentle Leader was probably the best of the three. I just recently tried the prong collar with Heidi and it is working really well. I tried it on her in the back yard at first and it slowed her down a lot and she didn't seem too disturbed by it. 

Our dog is dog-reactive too and we recently completed a "Grumpy Pup" class where they used treats to distract the dog. She did very well in the class and is now able to attend daycare, although she is still quite aloof and somewhat wary with the other dogs. It's almost like she doesn't understand the concept of playing with her own kind. Heck, we had to teach her to play with us!

In any case, I did get the Herm Sprenger medium collar and put it on the dead ring. Just be careful about quick jerks. She was nose to nose with a dog she seemed to be getting along with and suddenly there was a bit of a confrontation and I pulled her away quickly, forgetting about the collar, and she yelped. That was my fault, and I felt bad about it.

I view the prong collar as a temporary tool, which will help me teach her to walk nicely with me and I will put it away when she doesn't need it anymore. I have no idea what collar to get her at that point--any suggestions from the more experienced owners here, or doesn't it really matter and will any flat buckle collar do at that point?


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Wow, the collar apparently is working an hopefully you will never have to use it again. 

Remember one thing. When Moms want to teach their pups they grab them by the back of the neck and it hurts. 

The prong does the same thing, and in many cases only takes a few pops.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2007)

I just switched from a Slip (choke) Collar to a Prong Collar with my 6 month old GSD. It is by far the best move I made. He seems to respond quicker to correction. I was very hesitant to the change. I have sense ordered a dominant collar to aid as a back up collar. Gunnar is a very head strong male GSD. He has been through a 4 day basic obedience training course in which he excelled. He has the Sit and Heel covered. I have taken to responsibility for continuing the training with the help of a certified Dog Trainer.

Just wanted to share my thoughts.


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

If you want to do better than I would start with your attitude towards the prong. You need to be confident to lead and feeling sorry or unsure is not helping anyone.


----------



## PSADriven (Dec 14, 2007)

I agree with michelle about changing your attitude about the prong. As someone who has owned other breeds like rottweilers and Pitbulls, I sometimes get alarmed with people who seem a bit *overly* cautious with correcting their dogs. 

So many dogs are allowed to get themselves AND their owners in trouble (re; BSL) over behavior that could have been managed by perhaps a more *stern* approach, or something more than *just* a purely positive approach. Sometimes it is for the best to be able to utilize other types of methods.


----------

