# Recommendations on buying a young titled dog



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi - so in the course of considering dogs from various breeders such as Shield K9 and others, and considering the possibility of getting it trained and handed over to me at say 5-7 months old - some people said that at the prices mentioned ($7500-11,000), I could probably buy a young titled adult dog instead. Since I'm not sure which part of the forum to post it, I just put it here, (moderators please move to the correct section if needed) - 
This being the case, how and where does one go about finding a young titled GSD (under 2 years old if possible) to purchase, that is stable and would also be suitable for life in a family home.
Thanks!


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Many breeder sale titled dogs depending on the circumstance. The source is very important in this case. You want to be sure they are honest in their description of the dog and you aren’t being ripped off. My training director travels to Europe frequently and could get a titled dog. He won’t be any time soon until the COVID situation is under control. My breeder and trainer also sell titled and trained dogs from time to time. @SentinelHarts had a female for sale recently. There are a lot of ads on PDB, but I would be cautious doing business with someone over seas if I were you. I definitely wouldn’t recommend you buy a dog sight unseen from over seas. I would recommend you meet any dog you want to buy at this price and see it work before paying. I’ll pm you some more information.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have to wonder why a titled dog under 2 is so important? I personally would be very wary of the techniques used to train for rushed titles(and what titles??). I would rather find a breeder that has a foundation of well bred dogs and the breeders training skills, ask the breeder to either help with foundation(keep the pup for a few months with training) or find a decent trainer with a great reputation for what you want the pup to be trained FOR. 
NO way would I trust the cost of training that is suggested in this thread to equal what a quality well bred dog from a good breeder would be with a few months of good foundation training from said breeder. 

The post suggesting SentinalHarts is something to look into. I know many dogs from her program(I have a dog of her lines(Sheena) bred with my male) and the temperament is consistent in all of the dogs I know from the SentinalHarts foundation. I see many dogs in the auf der Marquis kennel that has SentinalHarts foundation for their program.
Threshold is pretty high, nice balanced drives, very social dogs that can excel in most any venue the owner wants to go with. This is consistent with many stud dogs used, which is nice to show the foundation of the bitch lines.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You need to connect with someone who has good connections in Europe - not one of these resellers in the US....they get dogs for 2500 or 3500 euro and sell them for 25,000 US.....seriously - I personally know a couple of people who do this....well known sport people ....I used to have a Belgian contact, but now just one in Czech Republic - but so many dogs in the CR are a mix of WGWL and Czech

Lee


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

onyx'girl said:


> I have to wonder why a titled dog under 2 is so important? I personally would be very wary of the techniques used to train for rushed titles(and what titles??). I would rather find a breeder that has a foundation of well bred dogs and the breeders training skills, ask the breeder to either help with foundation(keep the pup for a few months with training) or find a decent trainer with a great reputation for what you want the pup to be trained FOR.
> NO way would I trust the cost of training that is suggested in this thread to equal what a quality well bred dog from a good breeder would be with a few months of good foundation training from said breeder.


I absolutely agree with you on this, I'm actually less concerned about the title, more that I want a dog that has that level of obedience. Using Shield K9 as an example, I have no qualms about paying for a high level of training, and I think Haz's level training is definitely worth it - 
I'm just not fully convinced about the quality of his actual dogs in terms of stability and temperament both of the dogs he breeds or the ones he imports from Europe. So the better option is as you say to go with a breeder whose dogs have a good foundation, who is willing to board and train them for me up to 5-9 months old with a foundation in IPO. The problem is I have yet to find a breeder who is willing to do something like this. Most of the ones I have contacted and spoken to (looking at names that people have suggested in other threads) haven't been willing to do this. So now I'm exploring buying a slightly older trained young adult.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

wolfstraum said:


> You need to connect with someone who has good connections in Europe - not one of these resellers in the US....they get dogs for 2500 or 3500 euro and sell them for 25,000 US.....seriously - I personally know a couple of people who do this....well known sport people ....I used to have a Belgian contact, but now just one in Czech Republic - but so many dogs in the CR are a mix of WGWL and Czech
> 
> Lee


Yes after doing lots of research this is my conclusion too - which is why I'm not hugely interested in importing a young adult dog from Europe where I don't really have any solid basis of knowing how the dog was trained, its genuine temperament etc. I would rather get a dog that was bred here in the States or a BHOT from the breeder itself but having difficult finding good well regarded breeders who do this 

On that note, does anyone have any opinion on Boeselager Kennel in Michigan? Please PM me if that is better for you.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sambazon said:


> Yes after doing lots of research this is my conclusion too - which is why I'm not hugely interested in importing a young adult dog from Europe where I don't really have any solid basis of knowing how the dog was trained, its genuine temperament etc. I would rather get a dog that was bred here in the States or a BHOT from the breeder itself but having difficult finding good well regarded breeders who do this
> 
> On that note, does anyone have any opinion on Boeselager Kennel in Michigan? Please PM me if that is better for you.


I am familiar with the kennel as it is not too far from me. This breeder doesn't train regularly, so I don't think you'd be getting the level of training you want, the focus with the program is DDR lines. I will leave it at that.

Wildhaus kennels is in MI, they train their own breeding dogs for titles and may be willing to put a nice foundation on a pup for you. I know them well, train with them regularly and they breed very nice working lines. They don't breed often so the current breedings may be reserved, but I would contact them. (Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Have you considered buying a nicely bred puppy, and then sending the puppy to someone (qualified) who does board and train? That way you can 1. Get the quality and type of dog you want and 2. Get the level and type of training you specify.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Have you considered buying a nicely bred puppy, and then sending the puppy to someone (qualified) who does board and train? That way you can 1. Get the quality and type of dog you want and 2. Get the level and type of training you specify.


Yes, that is probably the route I am going to go. Think it makes the most sense at this point.


----------



## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

You could import from Jinopo. https://www.jinopo.cz/dogsav/jacks/jacks.php This dog is the full brother to one of my friend's dogs who is very stable in temperament, confident, and social.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not a place I would recommend.....I question credibility due to friend's experience


----------



## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

wolfstraum said:


> Not a place I would recommend.....I question credibility due to friend's experience


Any reason why in particular?


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Wolfstraum has spoken, enough said. Listen! She knows...


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

violetmd said:


> You could import from Jinopo. https://www.jinopo.cz/dogsav/jacks/jacks.php This dog is the full brother to one of my friend's dogs who is very stable in temperament, confident, and social.


Appreciate the recommendation. I would be hesitant to import from Europe due to my lack of knowledge of who is reputable or not in Europe, plus people constantly say European breeders sell their worst dogs and send them to 'clueless suckers' in the USA. No idea if this is true or not but given language, location, time difference I would imagine minimal breeder support following purchase of this dog and if the temperament is not as advertised, very little ability for recourse with the breeder. Also, again, perhaps I'm mistaken but I would be concerned that a dog that is presented as predominantly suitable for law enforcement would also be suitable for a family home.
That said, just for comparative basis do you know how much this dog is? would be interested to know the price compared to a similar age trained dog from North America.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It sounds like you want an adult dog with a fairly high level of obedience without doing the work. The problem is going to be keeping that level of obedience up if you don't have the skills to train a dog to the level you are looking for. Jinopo and their American satellite agent always says their dogs are suitable for everything which can't be true for every do they breed or even the majority.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

I plan to work on maintaining the dog's level of obedience. But yes, I myself am not capable of training a dog to that level of obedience. Although to be clear, I am not looking for it to be a podium worthy IPO champion level of obedience. Just more than an ordinary house pet.


----------



## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Sambazon said:


> Appreciate the recommendation. I would be hesitant to import from Europe due to my lack of knowledge of who is reputable or not in Europe, plus people constantly say European breeders sell their worst dogs and send them to 'clueless suckers' in the USA. No idea if this is true or not but given language, location, time difference I would imagine minimal breeder support following purchase of this dog and if the temperament is not as advertised, very little ability for recourse with the breeder. Also, again, perhaps I'm mistaken but I would be concerned that a dog that is presented as predominantly suitable for law enforcement would also be suitable for a family home.
> That said, just for comparative basis do you know how much this dog is? would be interested to know the price compared to a similar age trained dog from North America.


Fair enough. I don't know the price of a trained dog from Jinopo. I don't recommend them per se as I never had personal experience with them, just offering an option for you to weigh the risks/benefits of. 

Are you interested in a dog trained for personal protection or just a well trained pet? I know people who got their dogs to look amazing and completely off-leash trained with an e-collar after about 8-9 private sessions with a trainer. i.e. Walks at a heel, always comes when called, doesn't leave their owner's side unless given the "ok". They look very impressive compared to the average pet dog and the training is a fraction of a cost of a "protection dog"


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

somewhere in between - I don't want a personal protection dog as in fully trained to bite on command and able to be sent 100 yards away to attack someone, but I do want a dog that is very well trained, i.e. full off leash recall, heel without distraction and able to light up/bark on command at someone as a deterrent. But I do want a dog that has the nerves to stand its ground instead of fleeing in a worst case scenario.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sambazon said:


> But I do want a dog that has the nerves to stand its ground instead of fleeing in a worst case scenario.


For a dog to stand it ground, he will very likely need to know how to defend himself with confidence which requires training in biting on command, especially when you say worst case scenario. Does that means someone physically attacking you? A dog needs to learn a sense of victory to do what you want and that only comes through training with rare exception.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

I'm honestly not sure I believe that it is a rare exception. Isn't the whole point of getting dog breeds that were originally bred for household protection or guarding of some sort i.e. dobermans, GSD, Rhodeisan Ridgebacks etc. the whole point of 'protecting'. Granted if the dog has poor nerves and temperament it will flee rather than stand its ground, but I don't believe for one second that it is rare amongst GSD of good nerve and temperament that it would not likely stand its ground if its owner were attacked. It might not know how to properly deal with it, or bite in the most effective manner if not trained but if a GSD will only protect its owner if trained in bitework then I would imagine that everything all these breeders have been telling me about the breed and their personal anecdotes of their dogs and progeny with owners are fiction. Not to mention the various numerous anecdotes told by various users here on this forum about how their GSDs have acted when they have felt threatened or when strangers came into their house or whatever.

Not to mention my own dogs bereft of training and not even GSD have had on two occasions intervened when I was accosted on the street so I honestly think this is not a 'rare exception' if the dog has sound nerves and loves its owner, and isn't a pomeranian or whatever.

And if what you say is actually true, then I'll have him trained to bite on command but I don't think it's entirely necessary - if that's what it takes for a GSD, then maybe I'm looking at the wrong breed.


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> Wildhaus kennels is in MI, they train their own breeding dogs for titles and may be willing to put a nice foundation on a pup for you. I know them well, train with them regularly and they breed very nice working lines. They don't breed often so the current breedings may be reserved, but I would contact them. (Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


I’m going to second this. It could take a while but you might want to consider contacting this kennel and seeing if the breeder or one of their breeding partners would be willing to start a puppy for you.


----------



## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Sambazon said:


> somewhere in between - I don't want a personal protection dog as in fully trained to bite on command and able to be sent 100 yards away to attack someone, but I do want a dog that is very well trained, i.e. full off leash recall, heel without distraction and able to light up/bark on command at someone as a deterrent. But I do want a dog that has the nerves to stand its ground instead of fleeing in a worst case scenario.


I think the puppy + board and train route is probably the best option for you. Maybe a WGWL or Czech line dog. 

A protection dog where I live is more of a status symbol than a practical working animal. I have friends who think it would be "cool" to have a dog like that but in the same way it's "cool" to have a Tesla, a new tech gadget, etc. 

My Czech pup has a certain degree of suspicion already. Any noise near our door and she'll get up right away to investigate. She's friendly all the strangers we've met, but if we're in the car and a panhandler comes up to me and I lock my doors... she rush to the window barking and scare them off.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I see posts all the time on some facebook pages of reputable breeders. Some people have to rehome dogs, not the dogs fault, go back to the breeder, said breeder posts the dog. Dog has had training, out of the puppy stage, and looking for the right home. I have seen breeders keep back two puppies, get some training in both of them, then decide which they want to keep. So have an older pup with some training available. Or maybe one has a better hip rating than the other, doesnt mean the other is not a good pet. There are also Law Enforcement wash outs, doesnt meant they couldnt be a great pet, but maybe just didnt have what it took for being an LEO. They could still be a deterrent for you, be obedient, etc.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Yes, this route interests me - it's just even harder to find older puppies than it is to find young puppies  someone needs to make a website resouce for this. A place where people can go to see all the started puppies or older puppies that reputable breeders need to rehome!

- violetmd - yes I agree with you, that is the route I am most likely to go. At this point, still predominantly considering GSD breeders but open minded about Dobermans too.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sambazon said:


> I'm honestly not sure I believe that it is a rare exception. Isn't the whole point of getting dog breeds that were originally bred for household protection or guarding of some sort i.e. dobermans, GSD, Rhodeisan Ridgebacks etc. the whole point of 'protecting'. Granted if the dog has poor nerves and temperament it will flee rather than stand its ground, but I don't believe for one second that it is rare amongst GSD of good nerve and temperament that it would not likely stand its ground if its owner were attacked. It might not know how to properly deal with it, or bite in the most effective manner if not trained but if a GSD will only protect its owner if trained in bitework then I would imagine that everything all these breeders have been telling me about the breed and their personal anecdotes of their dogs and progeny with owners are fiction. Not to mention the various numerous anecdotes told by various users here on this forum about how their GSDs have acted when they have felt threatened or when strangers came into their house or whatever.
> 
> Not to mention my own dogs bereft of training and not even GSD have had on two occasions intervened when I was accosted on the street so I honestly think this is not a 'rare exception' if the dog has sound nerves and loves its owner, and isn't a pomeranian or whatever.
> 
> And if what you say is actually true, then I'll have him trained to bite on command but I don't think it's entirely necessary - if that's what it takes for a GSD, then maybe I'm looking at the wrong breed.


Belief is different from factual information. A dog being of a certain breed means nothing. I would say that easily, the large majority of the breeds you mentioned would not bite a person for real, especially without training. A GSD needs more than good nerves and good temperament (good for what) to bite a person without training, not to mention, fight a person who is attacking the dog. You are wanting a dog with a very aggressive form of defensive aggression. Such GSDs are not common these days. Plus, the situation is analogous to a person fighting. To be an effective boxer or martial artists takes a lot of training. Otherwise, why do people, train their dogs in PP, or why do police dogs go through bite training? If they were so likely to bite a person attacking you or the dog, there would be no need for training. I don't know what personal anecdotes you are referring to, but there are not that many people out there involved with the breed whose dogs have had live bites, especially with a serious aggressor. Police and military dogs are a different issue because they have a legal authority to use such force and do so regularly. People can say they know their dog would protect them, but they don't really know until it happens. Plenty of dogs will put on an aggressive display, but that has little to no correlation to the dog being civil, especially with no training. Many dogs will bark at strangers arriving at the home and the vast majority would flee if the stranger aggressively ran at the dog. It is not so much about the breed as the individual dog. Social aggression, the trait of a dog highly motivated to bite a stranger because he is a stranger, has all but been bred out of the breed and most breeds. The dog you are describing is out there, but requires a very high degree of experience and responsibility and is a very real potential liability. To find such a dog, you really need good connections and some standing as a handler because an ethical person would not sell such a dog to a novice. Even if they did, getting the dog as an adult, there would be the issue of your ability to handle such a dog. Rin Tin Tin is not how it is.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sambazon said:


> violetmd - yes I agree with you, that is the route I am most likely to go. At this point, still predominantly considering GSD breeders but open minded about Dobermans too.


Dobermans are a very good example of the demise of a breed. Early in breed, Dobermans were able to do what they were bred for. Good luck finding a strong, civil Doberman.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Belief is different from factual information. A dog being of a certain breed means nothing. I would say that easily, the large majority of the breeds you mentioned would not bite a person for real, especially without training. A GSD needs more than good nerves and good temperament (good for what) to bite a person without training, not to mention, fight a person who is attacking the dog. You are wanting a dog with a very aggressive form of defensive aggression. Such GSDs are not common these days. Plus, the situation is analogous to a person fighting. To be an effective boxer or martial artists takes a lot of training. Otherwise, why do people, train their dogs in PP, or why do police dogs go through bite training? If they were so likely to bite a person attacking you or the dog, there would be no need for training. I don't know what personal anecdotes you are referring to, but there are not that many people out there involved with the breed whose dogs have had live bites, especially with a serious aggressor. Police and military dogs are a different issue because they have a legal authority to use such force and do so regularly. People can say they know their dog would protect them, but they don't really know until it happens. Plenty of dogs will put on an aggressive display, but that has little to no correlation to the dog being civil, especially with no training. Many dogs will bark at strangers arriving at the home and the vast majority would flee if the stranger aggressively ran at the dog. It is not so much about the breed as the individual dog. Social aggression, the trait of a dog highly motivated to bite a stranger because he is a stranger, has all but been bred out of the breed and most breeds. The dog you are describing is out there, but requires a very high degree of experience and responsibility and is a very real potential liability. To find such a dog, you really need good connections and some standing as a handler because an ethical person would not sell such a dog to a novice. Even if they did, getting the dog as an adult, there would be the issue of your ability to handle such a dog. Rin Tin Tin is not how it is.


First of, I don't intend to be disrespectful but this is a rather silly analogy. People do not need MMA or martial arts training to try to intervene if someone they love or they themselves were attacked. That depends entirely on the invidivual character of the person involved. If someone tried to snatch my daughter, I am 100% certain my wife who is 5'0 and never had training in her life would attempt to intervene. Would she be effective? or course not, but she would TRY.

Likewise, as Balabanov has stated in his video, a dog that is trained may not attack or do anything either, in fact it might flee, even if it has had protection training. He says it's down to the genetic nerve of the dog, which is why he prefers Malinois over GSD. In his own words. Now of course, a dog that has the nerve and not the training, may not be likely to succeed but it will try. There are videos of news reporters who did a dog documentary testing and false home invasions to see if dogs would defend their owners, some did, some did not, it did not matter if they had training or not. In fact the most defensive was a poodle. We are not talking about the effectiveness of their defensive motion, we are talking about their protective nature. I was under the impression, most sound nerved, well bred GSD would intervene, if not then everything that is said about the breed would be a lie.

As for anecdotes, there are plenty of them on this board. For example I think maybe sabismom mentioned that her female put a bite and hold on an intruder into her bedroom in the middle of the night, a homesless guy she was giving shelter too. One extremely reputable breeder (who you have often praised in your own posts) told me about how one of their dogs, purely a family pet, never had any training of any sort, put an intruder in a bite and hold that attacked owner's father etc etc. My family pet goofy social love everyone doberman interjected one night in manhattan when a drunk stranger lunged at my wife and spat at her. So no, I don't think it's a 'rare exception' if the dog has good nerve. It might be a rare exception to find a dog with good nerve, but isn't that the whole point of sourcing one through a reputable well regarded breeder?
As to whether or not the dog has the capability to defend well etc etc that is an entirely different story as you say and that will probably boil down to either the training on the part of the dog or how skilled or dangerous the assailant is. But I'm not referring to this aspect.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you are so sure about your beliefs, you would not have to come on a discussion forum to ask about how and where to get the type of dog you are looking for. You would already have a degree of experience and connections who could set you up with the dog. You are naive. You example of Balabanov supports what I am saying. Even some dogs trained in bite work will not bite for real or flee. So what are the odds of a dog not trained in bite work actually protecting? How will you know about this ideal dog in your mind's nerves, if they are never tested? I doubt documenting a dog's response to home invasions involved any serious pressure on the dogs and certainly didn't involve anybody physically attacking the dogs. There is a lot of fantasy about the breed to the uninformed.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

I came on the board to ask for reputable breeders and where best to find trained dogs or recommended trainers. I've spoken to Balabanov, I'm just not sure I want a Malinois. According to Balabanov and other well known trainers I have spoken to (Soares, T Floyd), the dog's defensive action is predicated by its genetic nerve, not the training, since as you have confirmed, even trained dogs might flee. Forgive me if I value their opinion more than yours.
So where does that leave us? in search of a breeder who is renowned for producing strong nerved dogs, hence why I am on this board.

You haven't really added anything in terms of recommendations and I have no desire to get into an argument with you so let's leave it at that. IF I need to get the dog trained in ppd, I will. If I need to buy a fully trained PPD dog from Balabanov, then I will. The priority right now for me is finding a dog that is more likely to be in the mold that I want as opposed to a dog that has less chance of having that nerve.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You are naive. There is a lot of fantasy about the breed to the uninformed.


This is a little offensive to be honest. What is more naive? Believing what some random faceless user on an internet forum says or actually taking the time over a few months as I have to speak to various reputable trainers and breeders and other GSD owners about this? I take what I am told by them and I cross reference it with other experts and see what the common ground is.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A dog has to have strong nerves, but strong nerves are only part of the equation. Nerves alone are of little value if the dog does not genetically have strong defensive aggression. Strong nerves is a major issue in the breed. The two traits are not necessarily mutually inclusive. Actually, I have added recommendations. I recommended that you look for a dog with the genetics for strong defensive aggression or a dog with genetic social aggression if you can find one. You go from fairly specific to fairly general as you discuss the type of dog you are looking for. If you kind of want something, you will kind of get it. There is no sin in being naive. I am simply referring to a lack of knowledge. Again, if you don't value information from random, faceless people, why post the topic? No need to offer forgiveness, as I don't require your approval. I believe providing reliable information at the expense of ruffling a few feathers is better than providing misinformation that will make someone smile.


----------



## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

I’m based in Holland and while I was on the hunt for a perfect breeder (and trust me I think I spoke to every breeder - reputable and not - here in Holland) almost all the good breeders have some sort of practise of selling some of their pups to the US. 3 of my dog’s siblings were sent over (mind you for 9x more than what I paid for ours and they were untrained/untitled). So if I was you, I would start getting a feel of what sort of dog you want (temperament/character) and just start calling breeders. Keep in mind - if you don’t plan on working your dog and doing schutz or whatever I don’t think a titled dog who has become used to having to work would be a good fit for your family. You train a dog to fit into your lifestyle but if your getting a 2 year old dog who only knows working, it won’t be easy getting him to be “lazy”.

Also, because of covid getting dogs awarded at the moment has been put on pause. I’m probably not saying the right word terminology here but for instance, I got our pup last year and I’m still waiting for his certified papers because his mum hasn’t been able to test. He has his “stamboom” but still waiting on the rest.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sambazon said:


> I came on the board to ask for reputable breeders and where best to find trained dogs or recommended trainers. I've spoken to Balabanov, I'm just not sure I want a Malinois. According to Balabanov and other well known trainers I have spoken to (Soares, T Floyd), the dog's defensive action is predicated by its genetic nerve, not the training, since as you have confirmed, even trained dogs might flee. Forgive me if I value their opinion more than yours.
> So where does that leave us? in search of a breeder who is renowned for producing strong nerved dogs, hence why I am on this board.
> 
> You haven't really added anything in terms of recommendations and I have no desire to get into an argument with you so let's leave it at that. IF I need to get the dog trained in ppd, I will. If I need to buy a fully trained PPD dog from Balabanov, then I will. The priority right now for me is finding a dog that is more likely to be in the mold that I want as opposed to a dog that has less chance of having that nerve.


Can you send a GSD puppy or young GSD to Balabanov for the training you want?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sambazon said:


> This is a little offensive to be honest. What is more naive? Believing what some random faceless user on an internet forum says or actually taking the time over a few months as I have to speak to various reputable trainers and breeders and other GSD owners about this? I take what I am told by them and I cross reference it with other experts and see what the common ground is.


Reading through what you've said, you have a family and you've owned Dobermans in the past? So, just a little different perspective that I don't think has come up, but from a father with different breeds of dogs over the years. There are some breeds I would not bring a young adult or adult dog into my home with kids. Those include Rotts and German Shepherds that I've owned and Mals, that I haven't. 
When you raise a puppy with your family, you have multiple opportunities to learn about him and influence the relationship with your kids when the puppy is very young. You bring home a 6mo old who's been given whatever level of foundation someone's trying to sell you, you never know what exactly was missed that could matter with your family, not to mention whatever they've been doing in that training is not going to be anything beyond your abilities, as long as its something you want to do. I'm not sure if you just not wanting to is part of what been considering?
If I'm reading this right, you aren't real interested in training a dog fully in any protection or sport work? Solid ob with a dog you take anywhere in reason, and will be a deterrent just by being there and showing good control?
What you're looking for, if that matches what I said, isn't too hard to find. Thats not where you are going to run into limits of nerve strength with a lot of dogs. That's not a dog that needs to jump out of airplanes with you.

I wouldn't try to contradict anything 2 of the best trainers in the world are telling you, only that it all needs to be kept in the perspective of what you'll really, honestly be doing with the dog in relation to your family and even something along the lines of what you'll actually like. There's a lot of things with these dogs that are fun for one person and a pain in the rear for someone else.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Can you send a GSD puppy or young GSD to Balabanov for the training you want?


Hi yes, Balabanov said he can train any dog up to par in PPD as long as it has the sound nerves (maybe I am using the wrong terminology to describe it), bravery to engage with an assailant, and then he would put the training on top of that. Hence why I need to make sure the dog I get has the right temperament.  Naturally he suggested one of his Malinois puppies and while they are obviously capable, not sure his Malinois would like a normal moderate family lifestyle.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Reading through what you've said, you have a family and you've owned Dobermans in the past? So, just a little different perspective that I don't think has come up, but from a father with different breeds of dogs over the years. There are some breeds I would not bring a young adult or adult dog into my home with kids. Those include Rotts and German Shepherds that I've owned and Mals, that I haven't.
> When you raise a puppy with your family, you have multiple opportunities to learn about him and influence the relationship with your kids when the puppy is very young. You bring home a 6mo old who's been given whatever level of foundation someone's trying to sell you, you never know what exactly was missed that could matter with your family, not to mention whatever they've been doing in that training is not going to be anything beyond your abilities, as long as its something you want to do. I'm not sure if you just not wanting to is part of what been considering?
> If I'm reading this right, you aren't real interested in training a dog fully in any protection or sport work? Solid ob with a dog you take anywhere in reason, and will be a deterrent just by being there and showing good control?
> What you're looking for, if that matches what I said, isn't too hard to find. Thats not where you are going to run into limits of nerve strength with a lot of dogs. That's not a dog that needs to jump out of airplanes with you.
> ...


Yes thank you, this is solid advice. I had considered a young adult green dog etc but my wife is uneasy with bring an adult dog of this type of breed into the family with kids, so we have decided it makes more sense to get it as a puppy. The Doberman we had from a puppy. I am fond of them but thought I wanted to try something else, although if certain people are to be believed and only the rarest of the rare GSD would actually do anything then maybe I should stick with Dobermans . But in all seriousness from what I have researched so far, well-bred GSD seem to tick all the boxes.

What I am looking for is solid high level ob and the ability to bark/light up on command at someone. I would like to think that a well-bred GSD with solid nerves and bravery would attempt to protect its owner (note, I am not referring to how well it would do this, obviously not that well without training). My sister's Shetland Sheepdog intervened and bit a random guy that tried to put hands on her in Central Park so if that pansy little Shetland can do it, I find it next to unbelievable that guardian dog breeds of any sort would not (again, assuming it is a well bred solid nerve dog that is not fearful etc etc).

That said, I don't know what I intend to do when the dog is older at 2 years old. I might try my hand in IPO and Schutzhund to see if I like it, am capable of it and if the dog has the ability to do it, I might try training it in PPD and bitework with a trainer. I am interested to try it out which is why I want a dog that has the potential to do these things at some level (not looking for champion level IPO ability and the greatest IPO prospect dog in the world) but I do want a dog that can work at some level, but doesn't need to work. 

I think the problem that one gets on these boards is that there are certain people (not you) who have a superior attitude towards people who are first-time GSD owners, or people who have not tried Schutzhund before. I think they forget that they too were at one point in time first-time GSD owners or first-time Schutzhund participants. It's like all the 'hardcore' Malinois owners I've met who like to pose and pretend that only super elite handlers can handle a Malinois while forgetting there are actually families who have working line Malinois and do fine with them (if Balabanov himself is to be believed or the numerous random non working families posting on YouTube with their Malinois life stories). In this vein, you have certain posters who always post the same thing and it's rarely useful advice or even constructive. So for example, someone posts about their aggressive puppy and they don't know how to deal with it, seeking advice and these posters will nearly always post something along the lines "why did you get a GSD, it's too much dog for you, it's not the dog for a first time owner etc etc". Completely unhelpful imo.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think it would be very helpful to you to contact and visit your local clubs, look at their dogs, watch them train, see what you like and what you don’t.
It is nearly impossible to figure out what would suit you by posting and reading messages online, since from what I read you are looking for something most of us don’t even have.

My Rolf is a perfect pet for me, goes anywhere, loves to hike, great at restaurants, but happily stays home and snoozes if I’m under the weather, as long as I put him on the treadmill.

But as most pets probably would, I’m sure he would run if something were to happen, and I consider it my job to protect him, and not the other way around.
As a friend of mine said, “other things come with the level of confidence a dog would need to truly protect you, things that you may not like in a normal pet. It also depends on where this would occur. It’s a totally different picture when the dog is not in a familiar area.”

Good luck in your search.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sambazon said:


> Yes thank you, this is solid advice. I had considered a young adult green dog etc but my wife is uneasy with bring an adult dog of this type of breed into the family with kids, so we have decided it makes more sense to get it as a puppy. The Doberman we had from a puppy. I am fond of them but thought I wanted to try something else, although if certain people are to be believed and only the rarest of the rare GSD would actually do anything then maybe I should stick with Dobermans . But in all seriousness from what I have researched so far, well-bred GSD seem to tick all the boxes.
> 
> What I am looking for is solid high level ob and the ability to bark/light up on command at someone. I would like to think that a well-bred GSD with solid nerves and bravery would attempt to protect its owner (note, I am not referring to how well it would do this, obviously not that well without training). My sister's Shetland Sheepdog intervened and bit a random guy that tried to put hands on her in Central Park so if that pansy little Shetland can do it, I find it next to unbelievable that guardian dog breeds of any sort would not (again, assuming it is a well bred solid nerve dog that is not fearful etc etc).
> 
> ...


One of my favorite Mals is from Ivan. Its been a while, but anytime I saw him it was like I was his long lost best friend. He could come off the field and climb in my lap. My opinion on owning one though, from watching people train them is the amount of attention to detail that goes into being successful with one in the different sport venues, was beyond me. 

I'm the first one to say with any of this stuff, if I can do it, you can do it. You really have to want to though. I tend to look at the too much dog comments as mostly people who thought they wanted something, but they really didn't. There's things with my dog that a year ago didn't bother me one bit. A year later and I'm that much lazier and I can honestly say its nothing I'll want again. I can understand when people need to actually experience certain things to really know what comes along with the different pieces of these dogs temperaments. 

That's why I agree with what Sunflower said about getting out to see some of the dogs that are what you're interested in. Everyone is going to have a different perspective on what every descriptive term you read is. Something as simple as " Good with kids" leaves a lot of room for interpretation.


----------



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

yes that is good advice from you and Sunflower. In my case, Good with kids, just means, will let them pet him and not bite them. Anything else is fine lol


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sent u a Pm


----------

