# Thinking of breeding



## LilyIsClueless (Apr 21, 2021)

Hello! I’ve been thinking about breeding German shepherds, but I want to do it the right way. I want to take all the right steps, and make sure I’m improving the breed and not just being another backyard breeder.

I have a female who turned 1yr 11 days ago. She’s been in heat, but I didn’t want to breed her the first or probably even second heat.
How do I know if she’s suitable to breed? What health things do I need to have her tested for, and what behavior should I look for to know if she isn’t the right one for the breed?

I honestly don’t even know where to start. I just want to make sure I do everything right before even considering seriously breeding her.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

"Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart


I saw this posted on another dog forum... Hopefully this can help illustrate to some people why they shouldn't (Or should!) breed their dog.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

What makes your dog exceptional? What made her parents exceptional? 
What health guarantees were you offered and can in turn, yourself offer?
That's a good place to start.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

For the OP who may well be a novice owner of a registered bitch, what people are wanting to know is what titles your animal's parents have, what their line has accomplished, what health clearances they have. If she has siblings from an earlier litter, what have they accomplished? What health clearances have her "family members" got? 

Have you taken your dog through any serious training (IPO? even AKC obedience?) or maybe even conformation ring work? 

Those of us around the board for a day or two want to see all that before we say "maybe" so far as breeding the bitch goes. I remember people thinking I should have a litter of pups from my GSD/who knows quite what bitch and later from my long haired GSD. Yeah, well, no. I did finally get a Novice A on the GSD and the X would have done great except at that time AKC wasn't allowing them to compete. But, well, no.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

What's your financial situation like? Can you handle a multi-thousand dollar vet bill if something goes wrong with your dog during breeding, or the whole litter gets sick (e.g., parvo)? 

What about after you sell all the pups, can you realistically serve as a safety net for every dog you whelp FOR LIFE? That means if if one gets returned to you in a few years with mega-esophagus or severe elbow dysplasia requiring surgery, or with some other deformity, it's your problem. Other times you'll get a healthy dog returned because family member developed an allergy, or the person who originally purchased the pup years ago is getting a divorce, or lost a job. Or because the dog bit someone. All of these things really do happen. You will have years and years of this ahead of you.

I once rescued an old dog from a high-kill shelter with heartworms and mammary cancer. We figured out that she'd been bred by an _excellent _breeder -- and we returned her to her breeder three states away, who moved heaven and earth to get the old dog back. She hadn't spoken to the puppy buyers in about 9 years, or even bred another litter in all that time -- but she wasn't off the hook despite the time that had passed because it was still one of the dogs she brought into the world. She chose to make the old dog her personal dog for the rest of its life, and provide for its vet care to make up for the rough life the dog had -- and because she was a _good _breeder who took her commitment to the dogs seriously.

GSD puppies are HARD to find good homes for -- they have a sky-high return rate when you aren't experienced at picking out homes (scroll through all of the "my puppy is aggressive" threads here to get a sense of why). In my area, there are more puppies than there are good homes, so novice breeders may not attract the kind of homes they'd hoped for.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Also, don’t assume you will find homes for puppies with family or friends. Just because you know someone doesn’t mean they will provide a good working home for a dog that needs to be worked even if it’s just a pet. a dog can have 11 puppies. That is a lot of homes to find.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Breeding is complicated, and even though I’ve been showing my dogs for over 10 years, I have no clue about putting dogs and pedigrees together. I mean, I see dogs that I like, but I don’t have the knowledge to breed dogs. 

I have a lovely AKC champion who is working on her Grand, and she is never going to be bred. Scarlet is a really nice bitch, but honestly there are better ones. 

I co-own Nora (the new puppy) with her breeders. At 2 she’ll do her OFAs and DM testing, and whatever other health tests they want to do. So far she’s a beautiful bitch, and I’ll start showing her when she’s trained. I’m pretty confident she’ll get her championship. If down the road her breeders want to breed her, then they will. I trust their judgement. And she would go to their place and whelp puppies there. There’s no way I want to raise a litter. The thought gives me nightmares. 

I think the best way to learn how to breed dogs is to get a mentor.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> Breeding is complicated, and even though I’ve been showing my dogs for over 10 years, I have no clue about putting dogs and pedigrees together. I mean, I see dogs that I like, but I don’t have the knowledge to breed dogs.
> 
> I have a lovely AKC champion who is working on her Grand, and she is never going to be bred. Scarlet is a really nice bitch, but honestly there are better ones.
> 
> ...


Ding ding ding... Mentorship is huge. I've worked and trained hundreds of dogs and no way would I put 2 dogs together without someone I trust guiding the breeding. I grew up in a kennels with as many as 30 puppies on the ground at a time. It's a full time job for several people to do it right. I'd whelp and bring a litter up, but no way am I making decisions on what 2 dogs to put together.

I also train pet dogs, and BYB GSDs are some of the worst dogs I come across. I'm not trying to discourage anyone. I'm trying to encourage new breeders to find an ethical breeder that breeds great dogs. Latch yourself to their pocket and learn everything you can from them.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

David Winners said:


> I also train pet dogs, and BYB GSDs are some of the worst dogs I come across.


I took Scarlet to the vet last week, and it was a new vet at the clinic she goes to. By the end of the visit, the vet said ”I wish every Shepherd I see was like her!”. And then he kissed her on the nose. KISSED HER ON THE NOSE. I wanted to laugh out loud so badly, but I contained myself. Scarlet wagged her tail at him. She’s such a weirdo.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> I took Scarlet to the vet last week, and it was a new vet at the clinic she goes to. By the end of the visit, the vet said ”I wish every Shepherd I see was like her!”. And then he kissed her on the nose. KISSED HER ON THE NOSE. I wanted to laugh out loud so badly, but I contained myself. Scarlet wagged her tail at him. She’s such a weirdo.


I would be like...

Um... That was really cute, but dude, don't do that. Just, really, don't do that... Ever


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> I took Scarlet to the vet last week, and it was a new vet at the clinic she goes to. By the end of the visit, the vet said ”I wish every Shepherd I see was like her!”. And then he kissed her on the nose. KISSED HER ON THE NOSE. I wanted to laugh out loud so badly, but I contained myself. Scarlet wagged her tail at him. She’s such a weirdo.


Don't you dare call Miss Scarlet a weirdo! She is a queen and appreciates the adoration, as she should.
Sabi's vet used to kiss her nose. Every time he took her muzzle off. He said she was to pretty to wear that thing on her face. She wagged her tail at him as well.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

David Winners said:


> I would be like...
> 
> Um... That was really cute, but dude, don't do that. Just, really, don't do that... Ever


He had no idea that a kiss from Scarlet involves teeth. I was glad she just wagged her tail at him, lol.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Don't you dare call Miss Scarlet a weirdo! She is a queen and appreciates the adoration, as she should.
> Sabi's vet used to kiss her nose. Every time he took her muzzle off. He said she was to pretty to wear that thing on her face. She wagged her tail at him as well.


Sometimes they just make us shake our heads.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The basic health tests are hip and elbow certification through OFA, the sv, or penn hip and dm test. You need to be able to prove the workability and conformation as well. You also need to know this information about the dogs in the pedigree as well as what they produce and tend to pass down. The best way is to get a mentor to guide you. There are a couple breeders that come to mind here depending on what kind of shepherd you want to breed and produce.


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## Ed From Ohio (Apr 22, 2021)

LilyIsClueless said:


> Hello! I’ve been thinking about breeding German shepherds, but I want to do it the right way. I want to take all the right steps, and make sure I’m improving the breed and not just being another backyard breeder.
> 
> I have a female who turned 1yr 11 days ago. She’s been in heat, but I didn’t want to breed her the first or probably even second heat.
> How do I know if she’s suitable to breed? What health things do I need to have her tested for, and what behavior should I look for to know if she isn’t the right one for the breed?
> ...


From everything I have ever read or studied you should wait until she is 2 years old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, physically a dog can give his sperm younger and it won't hurt him or the puppies, but a bitch's body and mind has an incredible job to do, pregnancy, during whelping, and in raising her puppies, and even having her puppies leave and go to new homes.

Some young bitches are ready at eight weeks to be rid of the little piranha. I have seen a bitch come back into the room, look over the whelping box, count her puppies and cry -- seriously. The next day when the next pup went home, she was fine with that. But, the point is, that bitches need to mentally and physically mature enough to support a litter from conception through to when they go to their new homes. 2 years, minimum for GSDs. 

But please don't just put the pot on the back burner and revisit this question in a year, because if you are serious about breeding, you're behind. You need to use the next twelve months to learn EVERYTHING about your bitch, about the dog you want to use, about breeding and raising puppies, everything about dogs in general and German Shepherd Dogs in particular. 

Yes, yes, it is good to have health checks on the sire and dam of the litter, sure. But that is just one piece of the pie. To be a good breeder, you have to be mentor-material. Yes it is great to get a good mentor, and maybe your breeder, the breeder of your bitch, maybe that is a place to start. But everyone of the owners of the 5-14 puppies she is likely to have should be able to look to YOU as their mentor. Which means you need to get to expert-status on topics like puppy/dog food, veterinary care, training, aggression, leadership, the standard, socialization, the purpose and history of the breed, whichever registry you are working with and so much more. Not all your buyers are going to call you with questions and problems, if the pup has a few bouts of diarrhea, they will take it to the vet and hopefully get it cleared up and you will never know. Others will call you with, "the ER vet says that I need to spay my bitch right now..." Because I knew what pyometra was, what the symptoms were, where a good 24-hour clinic with a reproductive department and lab was near this person, I was able to prevent a tragedy. 

You aren't going to know it all, but you have to know a lot before you start, and you have to continually learn everything, expand your knowledge base. When your people call you with question about the puppy being aggressive toward delivery men or non-resident grandchildren, you have to have something better than, "Find a trainer or behaviorist" to offer them. And some of this just takes experience. My sister took a pup from my last litter and she lives over an hour away from me, one of the family members mentioned PetsMart as a place to go for training, I offered to get in contact with my retired trainer who is an AKC judge and was able to get from her some contact information for trainers in their neighborhood. It is the kind of thing you want to be able to do for the people who get your puppies, because you care an awful lot about those pups (and the people who get them) you WANT this to work.

Hip and Elbow dysplasia is just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, no one wants to have their dog break down by age 7. But a lot more pups leave their first homes because of a lack of training, than because of poor hips. There is an epidemic of pups from 10 months to 20 months that land in shelters or are even put down because no one bothered to train them, or curb them when they were getting out of hand. The temperament of the dog and especially of the bitch is the top thing you have to look at, and the first reason for dropping an animal from your plans of breeding. At 1 year old -- that is still a puppy, her adult temperament is not fixed yet, so she just isn't there yet. You spend this year learning everything you can about all the other stuff, but you spend this year working with that bitch and knowing her inside and out. 

One last thing though. I love all my dogs. And I don't think I would change it for anything. But there are moments when I might love to have just the one or just a pair of dogs again. When you have 10 or 12 dogs, it's hard to buy a freaking toy for one of them without feeling guilty because you don't have anything for the others. You can't take a dozen dogs with you EVERYWHERE, which is how you really get to know your dog. So you sign up for classes and you take this one and that one, for a number of weeks, and then switch them out with others. This is a breeder's lament. You can't be a good breeder with just a bitch and a dog. You have to hold back pups, grow them out, and breed for the future, sometimes you have to keep a dog because you don't want that dog to go to anyone else because it has an issue that you don't want others to have to deal with. You have to take back dogs if your people can't keep them, and those dogs may be re-homed, but you have to feel confident that they are re-home-able, and you aren't giving them a dog with problems you should have been able to detect. And when you have a bitch that has given you puppies, you might want to keep her (I mean besides the fact that you love her or you wouldn't have bred her in the first place) because you want to know how she ages. So, being a breeder means giving up what most pet owners prize about having pets. Yes, you can have a relationship with each of your dogs, but you will always have dogs that you will need to keep separate, and you will always have more than is quite comfortable. I don't regret it. But it certainly is not for everyone. Just something to think about. 

If you really want to breed your bitch, than get busy now with the preliminaries. And you certainly do not have to breed her at two. You can wait until she is 3 or 4, or even 5, though if she doesn't take at 5, you should not breed her at six, complications are much more likely if you wait beyond 5 for a first litter. Nothing wrong with waiting for her to be 3 or 4 though.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Selzer pretty much covered everything. Very well. So read her post a couple times because I don't have much to add.

Breeding can be thrilling and heartbreaking. Sometimes a combination of pedigrees just doesn't produce as expected- or throws a really aggressive or nervy dog- despite bitch and sire having excellent temperaments and workability. This happens in breeds like shepherds that carry real aggression and drive. 

Best way to prevent the unexpected is to know your dog and her pedigree inside and out. Know the siblings of sire/dam, and siblings of grand-sire dam. Find out if there are known issues that have popped up in relatives. Watch the sire work, watch him handle every day life- make sure he's a good match just on his own for your female- pedigree matters a lot but so does that individual dog! 

It's a huge commitment and doing it right is not a money making venture by any means. Few breeders make money unless they have at least 3 or more breeding bitches and breed often.

I'd suggest waiting at least a year, maybe more, and really getting to know your dog, her pedigree, and some good GSD breeders. Then make a very thoughtful decision, because each dog you produce is your responsibility for 10-15 years! Also, some stud owners will breed to anyone, but most want to meet the bitch, look over her pedigree, and make sure she's breeding quality. Poor pups will reflect badly on the stud. So if your female isn't well bred, it will be hard to find a quality stud dog.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Has anyone picked up on the, so appropriate, handle the OP has chosen?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

The odds of the average person owning two pet GSD that would be suitable for breeding together is slim and zero.


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## LilyIsClueless (Apr 21, 2021)

selzer said:


> Yeah, physically a dog can give his sperm younger and it won't hurt him or the puppies, but a bitch's body and mind has an incredible job to do, pregnancy, during whelping, and in raising her puppies, and even having her puppies leave and go to new homes.
> 
> Some young bitches are ready at eight weeks to be rid of the little piranha. I have seen a bitch come back into the room, look over the whelping box, count her puppies and cry -- seriously. The next day when the next pup went home, she was fine with that. But, the point is, that bitches need to mentally and physically mature enough to support a litter from conception through to when they go to their new homes. 2 years, minimum for GSDs.
> 
> ...


So after reading through everything, I do know I still want to be a breeder. I love the breed, and I know helping to improve the breed is something that would make me happy. I’m just not sure if I want to start it with the bitch I have due to now being unsure if the breeder I got her from was as responsible as they should have been. I need to go through her family’s history with the breeder before I decide to go any further.

I’ve seen several people mention getting a mentor. How can I find one? Like I said, I don’t know if I trust the breeders I got her from anymore. She might have a good pedigree, but I don’t think they care about how their dogs end up once they leave the litter. Should I go to a German Shepherd breeder specifically, or could I go to any breeder just so I’m able to learn everything about breeding and raising pups, and do my own research for the German Shepherd breed?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

If you don't trust the breeder, why would you breed the dog? She's a product of their program, whatever it is....


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## LilyIsClueless (Apr 21, 2021)

WNGD said:


> If you don't trust the breeder, why would you breed the dog? She's a product of their program, whatever it is....


Oh I wouldn’t breed her! Not until I find out more about the breeder and her family history. If I decide they can actually be trusted, then maybe. That’s only if I 100% believe they bred properly and their dogs have a good history. But even if I decide I won’t go through with breeding her, I know I am eventually getting another Shepherd down the road. Maybe it’ll end up I never find the right bitch, but at least I’ll be prepared in advanced!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My advice is to go work dogs. The GSD is a working dog and you won't begin to understand them until you experience working with them. Find a club and title the dog you have. That's a start.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You need to learn more ultimately. The best way to do that is go out and get involved with the breed. Make friends with people that know things. A breeder in another breed can help you a lot but you need to know the dogs your breeding and where they come from. There are breeders on this board even though they don’t post that often. At least one of which I know has been a huge influence on several other successful breeders. That is the type of person you should look for.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Go to lots of Dog Shows, and Dog Sport events. Meet people and ask about their dogs, lines, etc..... Get involved with the breed club, before you do a thing. That's a good place to start, before you even THINK about breeding, which should be years away, educate yourself, extensively, first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, you can use a breeder of a different breed, but that leaves plenty of holes. For example, the health problems that English Setters run into are not the same as GSDs. And breeding for bird dogs, setters, it is almost entirely instincts that you are working with. The dog will get "birdy" and lock onto a bird or not. All you have to train is enough obedience to get the dog to not run to the next county before he starts to hunt with you. With shepherds there is a lot more training, building drive, working in drive, encouraging the behavior you want and motivating the dog. Herding dogs need to use their brains to move the sheep, and it is totally different. 

So, stuff like showing, contracts, finding people and selling your dogs, going to training classes together, and showing together -- lots of stuff you can do across breed lines. But only a shepherd person can give you the down and dirty about our breed and the dogs in your pedigree. If you have a mentor who raises Labs, join a GSD breed club and start volunteering for everything at in a few years, you will be able to find a breeder in their ranks that can help you fill those holes. 

Now, there is something you have to understand too, and I will get myself in trouble here, but it is what it is. There are pet-people and there are breeders. There are pet people that have had a litter which makes them the breeder of that litter, but they are not _breeders_, not if they are not keeping their dogs' progeny with some sort of a plan toward the future. Pet people, well, they think all dogs should live like their pets. They cannot imagine having a dog that is generally kenneled. But if you have multiples of males and females who are intact, there comes a time when they will not all be a huge pack running around together with no gates. Pet people want to take their dogs everywhere, and cannot imagine people having dogs that pretty much stay at home. We are a site filled with pet people, and there is nothing wrong with that. Except that, they can go to a breeder's home and see "grass clippings in the pups' water dish" and think that is a terrible red flag. Some of them can look at great kennels and see them as though they are jail cells, and feel terribly sorry for your dogs, and they will slam you behind your back. Because they treat their dogs more like little, young, humans, than dogs. So when you find someone who may be a mentor for you, you have to give a little. You do not necessarily have to adopt everything that they do. But you can keep it to yourself, until you know, until you have 10 or 15 litters under your belt, then maybe what this other breeder is doing still is something you wouldn't do, or maybe it is something that makes more sense, now that you know more about it. 

Most shepherd breeders have spay-neuter clauses in their contracts. Many will only sell their dogs on a limited registration. As someone who wants to breed, that obviously isn't what you want. And you are going to have to be up front with people and some of those people are not going to sell you a bitch because they don't think you should breed their dog. 

Really the best thing to do is to get involved in breed events in your area with the bitch you currently have. Train her in four or five venues, go to club meetings, learn about the breed and then talk to folks about what you want. When they see how serious you are about training, trialing, etc, then maybe one will sell you a dog with a great pedigree and a full registration and will be willing to help you go further both in whatever you are doing with your dog and in getting started as a breeder.


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## carltonnoble (Sep 24, 2021)

Thank you to everyone who is giving good advice about how to be a good breeder. I know sometimes the knee jerk reaction to a beginner is stay out of it because you don’t know enough, but everyone has to start somewhere. No one was born with all the knowledge they needed. They had to start learning somewhere.
With that being said, I am not currently breeding. I do love my dogs and would love to breed good GSDs. I do not want to be a BYB. At the same time, everyone has to start somewhere. I’m desiring knowledge about the GSD breed. They are the best dogs I’ve ever had. Yet I don’t know what books to read or what trainers to study. Or what trainers to use. There is so much information on the internet that it gets overwhelming. I’d love to have an expert in my area to help me train and show my dogs. Or train and work my dogs. I don’t want to be a stupid dog owner. I want learn and gain knowledge. I just get lost with so much information and some times it’s conflicting and I don’t know which is true. So thank you to the people on this thread who has given valuable advice to all of us beginners. We are not experts yet. But we desire to learn.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Join a club. Title your dogs. You will learn so much in the process.


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## carltonnoble (Sep 24, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Join a club. Title your dogs. You will learn so much in the process.


I agree with you. I want to title my dogs. I’m just so new to the whole process I don’t know where to start or begin. I don’t live in the big city. I like in Bedford VA. A little town in the southwest part of Virginia. When I look up clubs in my area I can’t find anything. I don’t want to join just a dog club if I can join a GSD club. I’m trying to find an IPO or IPG trainer in my area or within an hour or two drive. Again nothing. I’m either not looking in the right place or there isn’t anything around me. I’d love to have any links to clubs or trainers around me if you have some. Again, I totally agree with you, but google hasn’t been much of a help in this area of knowledge.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carltonnoble said:


> I agree with you. I want to title my dogs. I’m just so new to the whole process I don’t know where to start or begin. I don’t live in the big city. I like in Bedford VA. A little town in the southwest part of Virginia. When I look up clubs in my area I can’t find anything. I don’t want to join just a dog club if I can join a GSD club. I’m trying to find an IPO or IPG trainer in my area or within an hour or two drive. Again nothing. I’m either not looking in the right place or there isn’t anything around me. I’d love to have any links to clubs or trainers around me if you have some. Again, I totally agree with you, but google hasn’t been much of a help in this area of knowledge.


Google won't help. Join the IPO pages on facebook and make contact with training groups and trainers that are not official clubs. Look on the USCA, GSDCA, DVG, sites for clubs. Expect to drive 3 hours to train. Driving is just part of the package.

Carolyn August/Matt Arpano and Marty Segretto area bout 3.5 hours north of you. Jacob Pope is in the Richmond area. Kayla is in Richmond now. You might be closer to the NC clubs.



https://www.germanshepherddog.com/region-events/?cy=2021&cm=11&re=se


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Newbie here, just sucking up information. Thanks to all who post their experience.



selzer said:


> This is a breeder's lament. You can't be a good breeder with just a bitch and a dog. You have to hold back pups, grow them out, and breed for the future, sometimes you have to keep a dog because you don't want that dog to go to anyone else because it has an issue that you don't want others to have to deal with. You have to take back dogs if your people can't keep them, and those dogs may be re-homed, but you have to feel confident that they are re-home-able, and you aren't giving them a dog with problems you should have been able to detect.


When you refer to holding back pups, do you mean for future breeding? To see the quality of the offspring?

For the problem dogs/returns, could one just spay/neuter those and keep them as part of the pack, thus ensuring no genetic spread of the problem and yet providing a forever home?



selzer said:


> here are pet-people and there are breeders. There are pet people that have had a litter which makes them the breeder of that litter, but they are not _breeders_, not if they are not keeping their dogs' progeny with some sort of a plan toward the future.


I am interested in breeding, but I think most successes in life happen incrementally. Using your description, couldn't one start out as a "pet person" with one very high quality dog and bitch and see how it goes?



selzer said:


> Pet people, well, they think all dogs should live like their pets. They cannot imagine having a dog that is generally kenneled. But if you have multiples of males and females who are intact, there comes a time when they will not all be a huge pack running around together with no gates.


That is certainly a lifestyle, but (to repeat my questions from above), couldn't one start out with one high-quality breeding pair?

I will create a new post with my vision, would appreciate any feedback you or others have.


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