# Inexperienced with pedigrees, needing an opinion!



## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

Hi all! 

I am about to pick up my first GSD. The process has required so much extensive research and learning, I'm so glad that this forum exists to consolidate all the information. 
Although I have learned much I would appreciate your experienced input before I bring her home. 

I've narrowed down my search to a recent litter of these pedigree's. 
Let me know your thoughts!


*Sire: Kanto Plavno*

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2504383-kantor-plavno

*Dam: Faedra vom ALten Land
*

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2001735-faedra-vom-alten-land


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I fixed the links for you. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

I've attached photo of the puppy. 
She is the last 2 of 8 in the litter at 4 months of age. 

I met her last week and from what I could discern she had a really good temperament and we definitely formed a connection. 
She had an extremely high ball drive and was very focused. The breeder was very informative and seems to be trustworthy. 


As I know GSD's are prone to certain ailments, I want to be certain that I'm investing in a breeder/pedigree that will be healthy and to know if the breeder is correct in saying that she is of the strongest lineage. 

I have been reading about pasterns, tail on the floor, and bone formation; what is your informed opinion based on the photo?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

She looks like a normal 4 month old puppy. What are your goals for this puppy?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would ask to see her outside the home environment in different places....personally not crazy about the linebreeding....but also know that when you have a litter that has a temperament risk (as I PERSONALLY define same) then you have to look to the individual to see what shook out in the genetic make up


Lee


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

lhczth said:


> She looks like a normal 4 month old puppy. What are your goals for this puppy?


Thanks! I'm happy to have another opinion. 

I will train her for IPO but she will mainly be my companion.

That being said, my biggest concern is for her health (hips/elbows/joints). 
From what I have learned of reading a pedigree the lineage seems to be good re: hip dysplasia (HD). Breeder offers 2 year warranty. 

What major concerns should I be looking out for in a GSD? 
I wasn't able to meet her mother so I'm slightly concerned about Arthritis/Pano. I'll be supplementing with fish oil / raw fish. 


When I met her I was astonished at the focus and ball drive she has. 
Perhaps this is because it's my first time spending time with a GSD & I hadn't any idea of what to expect. 

Is my understanding correct in that her pedigree indicates that she should be well up to the task of IPO and perhaps a bit of protection work?

Currently doing my second listen of Dave Kroyer. 

thank you for your input :smile2:


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

wolfstraum said:


> I would ask to see her outside the home environment in different places....personally not crazy about the linebreeding....but also know that when you have a litter that has a temperament risk (as I PERSONALLY define same) then you have to look to the individual to see what shook out in the genetic make up
> 
> 
> Lee


Thanks Lee!
I've been reading some of your posts to learn about pedigree's. 
You make an excellent point about taking her outside of her familiar environment. I'll certainly do that before I pick her up.

I didn't fully grasp the numbers behind the inbreeding coefficient. Would you guide me to better understand those numbers? What is acceptable, unacceptable/ good, bad? 


I understand what you mean by temperament risk. 
Would you describe which temperament is to be most cautious about upon observation?

I wasn't able to meet with the mother (she was said to be aggressive), but I met with her daughter and she was submissive + friendly. 
I also met with the father and he was very friendly and approachable with very strong drive and protection work.


The puppy herself was in the company of a littermate and showed independence and affection towards me when not focused on the ball.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

She has Vito on both sides. My dog has Vito on one site. Vito has been known to have progeny who bloat. I would ask the breeder if they have followed their lines and if there is any propensity for GDV. The sire looks a lot like my Czech WL dog.


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> She has Vito on both sides. My dog has Vito on one site. Vito has been known to have progeny who bloat. I would ask the breeder if they have followed their lines and if there is any propensity for GDV. The sire looks a lot like my Czech WL dog.


Oh wow, I was reading somebody's experience with that just today. 
I will absolutely investigate further. 

Thank you for your keen observation, I was so focused on learning the acronyms and their meaning, I hadn't caught Vito twice in the pedigree myself.

How old is your GSD, how has your experience been him. Are you training/titled for anything specific?

With this knowledge of GVD, which precautions do you take to ensure a healthy GI (e.g. diet, supplements, vet consults)?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

2. Almost 3. I’m not sure anything we do or avoid can cause or prevent bloat. A rescue friend said they’ve had dogs bloat who were calm in their crates at night and no one knew until the next morning. They had none of the known risky behaviors. Another friend said they’ve seen dogs bloat in a vet practice who hadn’t eaten since the day before.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vito died of torsion. That is a reason why I will not linebreed on Vito. I had not heard of his kids having the same issue, but it is something to take into consideration. If you really like this puppy then you can consider having her stomach tacked when she is under for her x-rays. I hate this idea in dogs that might be used for breeding since, IMO, it is just another way to cover up a deadly fault, but would be OK for a non breeding dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Vito died of torsion. That is a reason why I will not linebreed on Vito. I had not heard of his kids having the same issue, but it is something to take into consideration. If you really like this puppy then you can consider having her stomach tacked when she is under for her x-rays. I hate this idea in dogs that might be used for breeding since, IMO, it is just another way to cover up a deadly fault, but would be OK for a non breeding dog.


Does that mean only dogs linebred on Vito are at risk or all of his progeny? How many generations back?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are other issues with Vito that concern me more than the risk of bloat.....

I PERSONALLY will not use Vito descendent's at all....just MY PERSONAL opinion....

Lee


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

What are the issues with Vito descendants?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

LuvShepherds said:


> She has Vito on both sides. My dog has Vito on one site. Vito has been known to have progeny who bloat. I would ask the breeder if they have followed their lines and if there is any propensity for GDV. The sire looks a lot like my Czech WL dog.


What dogs from Vito have bloated? Are there examples? I have heard this prior, but it was a general statement with no names.

We bred to Vito, no health issues at all. We have line bred, no issues at all. One of husband's current working males is grandson of Vito and Molinari Enzo son; compact, healthy and driven.

But, we look at all the pedigree when breeding....


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Smithie86 said:


> What dogs from Vito have bloated? Are there examples? I have heard this prior, but it was a general statement with no names.
> 
> We bred to Vito, no health issues at all. We have line bred, no issues at all. One of husband's current working males is grandson of Vito and Molinari Enzo son; compact, healthy and driven.
> 
> But, we look at all the pedigree when breeding....


I don’t have names, I was just told that some of his progeny have died of bloat. Does anyone have names?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I searched and found mentions of Bady progeny bloating. Does anyone have the dog’s full name? He was a Vito son?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Beau's Mom said:


> What are the issues with Vito descendants?


Very high drive, over the top in some of his progeny. Mal-like intensity. My dog is high drive but much calmer, although he is a few generations removed from Vito.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

I do, Bady is Beau’s grandsire on sire’s side, hang on.....here he is on PDB

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=623772-bady-ze-svobodneho-dvora


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, that is Bady. He had torsion in 2015 with a successful surgery for bloat.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Very high drive, over the top in some of his progeny. Mal-like intensity. My dog is high drive but much calmer, although he is a few generations removed from Vito.


Thanks! Beau could’ve used a handler with more skill than I had when he arrived, but he is more than manageable. He has high toy and prey drives, so far have seen zero protection against people, discerning defensive response to some other dogs. A bit excitable in new situations, but not Mal intensity, thank you. He can turn it off and relax at home when I want him to, settles pretty well. Doing that right now as I type :smile2: .

The torsion info is a bit worrying, but I already do what I can to reduce the chances of it happening. Now I’ll just be even more vigilant.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Even if a dog throws progeny who end up with torsion, the probabilty of your dog getting it is low. It only means they have more bloat than a sample that isn’t predisposed to it, but it doesn’t mean a lot will get it. I don’t have any idea what the percentage is.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Even if a dog throws progeny who end up with torsion, the probabilty of your dog getting it is low. It only means they have more bloat than a sample that isn’t predisposed to it, but it doesn’t mean a lot will get it. I don’t have any idea what the percentage is.



Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below. 

OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, _per se_, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which _is _heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering. 

YMMV. 

Aly

*Canine Gut Microbiome Associated with Higher Risk of GDV: *
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5995382/

*Genetics of GDV in Dogs: * https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=6976369&pid=12513&print=1


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

Thank you all for your valuable thoughts, it has given me a lot to think about and I have truly learned and continue to learn a lot from this forum. 

@Ihczth: I do want her to enjoy the experience of her maternal instinct atleast once and I will be mindful of the health of the future of the breed. I'm glad you brought this to my attention. 
@luvshepherd: thanks for bringing the risk of GDV to my attention. The following is a summary of my investigation of risk factors and preventative measures. 

Disclaimer: I am not a veterinarian and the advice below is intended for educational purposes and should not replace that of your licensed vet.


Regarding GDV/bloat there are two important aspects we must consider:

A genetic component definitely exists and is related greatly to anatomical _conformation_ & _temperament_.

Also of importance are the environmental and modifiable risk factors.


*Genetic Risk Factors*:

1° relative with GDV *63% increased* association.


_Chest Depth/Width Ratio_ (1,0 to 2,4): *170% increased* risk for each increased unit of ratio


_Temperament_:"There does seem to be a direct correlation of the animal’s temperament relating to its tendency to develop GDV. Those animals being characterized as unhappy or fearful were about *2½ times* as likely to develop GDV. Stress appears to significantly increase the chance of the animal developing GDV. Animals who undergo significant stress traveling to shows, etc. are *2-3 times* as likely to develop GDV than those animals who are not significantly affected by the transport. Also activity level may be important with those animals characterized as hyperactive and those animals being categorized as less active were twice as likely to develop GDV as those animals characterized as having a normal activity level."



*Environmental & Modifiable risk factors*:
_Dietary Habits_: 

A raised feeding bowl has *110% increased risk.*


Avoid single large meals *(2X as likely for GDV)*, instead feed two to three small meals/day with an increased variety in their food _(59-28% decreased risk)_


"Dogs fed dry dog foods that list oils (e.g. sunflower oil, animal fat) or corn among the first four label ingredients predispose a high risk dog to GDV." Avoid moistening dry food(s) prior to feeding. 


Rate of eating: Slow eaters are least likely to develop GDV while *fast eaters are 5X as likely* to develop GDV.


"Restrict vigorous exercise one hour before and two hours after meals"


_Body Weight_: "Being overweight actually reduced the incidence of GDV compared to dogs that were optimum weight. However, those animals characterized as significantly *underweight were about 3 times as likely* to develop GDV as those animals characterized as optimum weight."



"*Simethicone (store brand-Phazyme) should be kept in your cabinet at all times.* It is an anti-gas pill that can help to buy your vet some time should you think your dog is bloating. It may even stop the bloat if in the beginning stages. If you wait too long, the dog will not be able to swallow the pill. Make sure you tell your vet you have given the pills."​

_Source(s):_

German Shepherd Rescue of New England


Gary Ellison - GDV


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

Aly said:


> Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below.
> 
> OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, _per se_, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which _is _heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input Aly, and yes, I'm increasingly hesitant to move forward.
I've been speaking with many breeders and they're all so ready to shower me with their breadth of knowledge without any expectations. 
It's a very different experience from when I met with this breeder and his level of knowledge. 
I wish I understood how to read a pedigree with more proficiency, but as I speak to more breeders, I learn something new everytime. 
Unfortunately I put down a deposit which I may have to lose. Additionally, waiting for the next & right litter may be a longer wait than I had hoped for. 


I appreciate the link to the articles, they're very informative. 
I've been reading a lot about ghrelin and motilin mutations/dysfunction to be the main investigation into the cause of GDV. This makes sense as they are the hormones which control the activity of the GI. A malfunction in motility allows for fermentation and production of gas, similar to the implications the article describes. 

The NCBI article speaks about the canine genetic HLA as a possible factor in the development of GDV. This is related to an autoimmune mechanism which is a lot like Type II DM in humans: there is a strong genetic predisposition but an environmental factor must also be present in order for expression of the disease. 
This makes sense for why the average onset of GDV in dogs is around the age of seven yoa. 

This autoimmune disorder leads to dysbiosis of the GI microbiome → IBD in these dogs. Are GSD's prone to IBD? 

Since the samples in this experiment are Great Dane's I would be curious to know the the ratio of IBD in Great Dane's to GSD's. 
In reading the article we should keep in mind the risk of GDV is Great Dane > Saint Bernard >
Weimaraner > Irish setter > Gordon Setter.

This is good news as there are many environmental/modifiable factors that we are aware of. 
I'm excited to see such in depth investigation into this disease, it exemplifies the value of man's best friend. 

The second article assumes a high degree of consanguinity, which of in itself is problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There is currently a study being conducted with German Shepherds. They had a very large response. In the initial step, they found exactly the same as they did in Great Danes.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Opsoclonus What is the reference you cited? I have information on bloat that contradicts some of what you posted. I was told by a vet that dry food should be moistened and that there is no consensus on a lot of what you posted as fact. I’m not being critical, but I have also read a lot and concluded there is disagreement in published material on “facts” and causes. Another study found no correlation tween activity and bloat.

If you like that litter and want a dog, you should make your own decision. This is just one set of inputs. I would talk to the breeder. Have they bred those dogs and lines before? Have they had any bloat in their lines? Though, I would probably pass on the litter, too, having gone through it before.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Aly said:


> Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below.
> 
> OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, _per se_, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which _is _heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering.
> 
> ...


I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?

The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesn’t seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> There is currently a study being conducted with German Shepherds. They had a very large response. In the initial step, they found exactly the same as they did in Great Danes.


Do you have a link? Is anything published yet?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Opsoclonus said:


> Thank you all for your valuable thoughts, it has given me a lot to think about and I have truly learned and continue to learn a lot from this forum.
> 
> @Ihczth: I do want her to enjoy the experience of her maternal instinct atleast once and I will be mindful of the health of the future of the breed. I'm glad you brought this to my attention.


Not Lisa, but I would certainly urge you to consider all the info about health issues cited here....then look at all the threads about people who are seeking help with their pet GSDs....most of the dogs people are having problems with are purchased as pets from someone who is not a dedicateddon, hard core, breed knowledgeable, responsible, reputable, experienced breeder - or they would be getting help from that person! Instead, they buy a pup from someone who thinks their dog needs to be a mother, whose family thinks they want (but usually don't really) a puppy, who thinks puppies are a quick and easy cash bonus...etc etc With no background in the breed or any sport, and without titles and credentials, pups are at risk....

There are always RISKS in any breeding - to your female, to the pups, to the families getting those pups....even 1 pup out of 8 who picks up the genetics that are negative from the pedigree is too many....what do you do when the family you sold a puppy to calls and says the pup is shy/nervy or inappropriately aggressive??? That he comes back at the owner for a correction??? 


I don't do risk because I don't want to be in that position....


I wish you luck with your pup - but really hope you will just enjoy her for herself and not breed.


Lee


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> @Opsoclonus What is the reference you cited? I have information on bloat that contradicts some of what you posted. I was told by a vet that dry food should be moistened and that there is no consensus on a lot of what you posted as fact. I’m not being critical, but I have also read a lot and concluded there is disagreement in published material on “facts” and causes. Another study found no correlation tween activity and bloat.
> 
> If you like that litter and want a dog, you should make your own decision. This is just one set of inputs. I would talk to the breeder. Have they bred those dogs and lines before? Have they had any bloat in their lines? Though, I would probably pass on the litter, too, having gone through it before.





LuvShepherds said:


> I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?
> 
> The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesn’t seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed.


Hey, no worries! As long as this is a constructive conversation I'm happy to indulge. I'm not even a GSD owner yet so I'm sure you've done a lot more reading on this topic than I have. 
I included the sources near the bottom of the summary below _Simethicone_. 

They most definitely may be outdated in terms of raw percentages but I do believe the precautions to be sound and have not read anything contradicting them. 
The fact that the study includes relative risk and calculated percentages gives me the sense that this is a true statistical study, there must be some factual information presented based on the sample study. 
Precautions are simply just that - precautions. Preventative measures are difficult to put numbers to since most samples do not follow up until there is disease. 
I doubt there will ever be a controlled study with canines with GDV since they are man's best friend.
I'm interested in reading your sources to learn the latest.


These are my thoughts regarding exercise and it's relation to bloat. Keep in mind that this is not something that happens in one setting. This is most likely due to a habitual practice.

Exercise may be entirely subjective but the correlation between *vigorous* exercise and ↑ Respiratory Rate (RR), ↑ Cardiac Output (CO), ↑ sympathetic stimulation, ↓ parasympathetic activity _with_ exercise is physiologic fact. 
Eating induces a parasympathetic response _(increased blood flow to GI)_ in order to begin digestion. Activity of the sympathetic nervous system _(blood shunted away from GI)_ is dominant. Following vigorous exercise with food intake will simply allow food to remain stagnant/lack of digestion ⇒ ↑ fermentation & gas. 

Regarding moist food, I cannot think of a firm logical counter your veterinarian's statement. I fed my Lab moist food as she got older when her teeth were just not up to the task any longer. The fact of the matter is that she was not as prone to GDV so I didn't need to take that precaution. 
Perhaps moistened should be exchanged with the word soaked? 

My thoughts of this being a preventative measure is considering 'soaked' kibble to create unnatural expansion in the stomach and perhaps a slight increase of pH in the stomach. (Chewing stimulates digestive enzymes prior to ingestion into the stomach ⇒ ↓pH; Water has a neutral pH ⇒↑pH in the stomach)

All in all each preventative measure to GDV is indicating that you should do all you can to increase the digestive process within the stomach and less to hinder the digestive process. 
Maintaining a low pH in the stomach is a method to aid digestion. 

I hope that makes sense. 


With regards to the shepherd, I'll go back to visit and with Lee's advice I'll take her out of her environment to learn a bit more about temperament and simultaneously learn more about the breeder. 

After speaking to some breeders of 40-50 years the difference in just a phone conversation is striking. 
I'm looking for a friend in this dog, so i'll have to do my best to make sure she's healthy throughout her lifetime. 
You know, I research GDV not because of what _I_ will have to endure, but what the _dog_ must endure. 

As a responsible GSD owner, it's my duty to make sure the future of the breed remains healthy - so then it becomes less about the dog and more about the breeder. The decision then becomes easy.

I'm looking forward to a canine companion! But until then I'll marvel at all them here =)


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I’ll apologize in advance, for any typos/incoherence. Not enough coffee on board and I’ve got to jump on a call in 20 (oops 15) minutes, but wanted to respond quickly to a couple of questions/comments raised by OP and LuvShepherds. 
 @Opsoclonus _This makes sense for why the average onset of GDV in dogs is around the age of seven yoa. 
_

Yes, but keep in mind that this is an average age at onset; you really have to look at the variance to get an idea of what one/you might encounter with an individual/your dog — in the context of other hypothesized contributors (e.g., heritability & consanguinity indices, environment and management practices, temperament/personality) only some of which are controllable. One of the frustrating aspects of this kind of research (well, for me, anyway) is that the more you learn,_ the more you realize how very much you do not know_. In a slightly OT vent: Another frustration is that too many breeders are not as forthcoming as one might wish them to be about demonstrably heritable problems in their lines — assuming that they attempt to compile that information in the first place. All the more reason to choose your breeder carefully.
@Opsoclonus _This autoimmune disorder leads to dysbiosis of the GI microbiome → IBD in these dogs. Are GSD's prone to IBD? _

Yes:

Genetic Research on IBD: https://www.purinaproclub.com/resou...tory-bowel-disease-may-lead-to-new-treatments

Canine Breeds at High Risk for IBD: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21896567

How to Cure IBD in Dogs: https://nextgendog.com/ibd-in-dogs/ Note that the title is a bit of a misnomer (e.g., “Cure”), but has useful information nonetheless.​  @Opsoclonus_ The second article assumes a high degree of consanguinity, which of in itself is problem._

Yes it is. Though, I must confess that the nerd in me has always been fascinated (in a purely intellectual sense) by linebreeding, theory and practice. That said, I’ve also been greatly concerned by the results of linebreeding that I’ve seen — largely produced by ‘breeders’ whose understanding of genetics could only be described as, uh, romantic. I’m not speaking of GSD breeders, here, as I don’t know enough to comment in this specific respect. 
 @Opsoclonus _Since the samples in this experiment are Great Dane's I would be curious to know the the ratio of IBD in Great Dane's to GSD's. 

In reading the article we should keep in mind the risk of GDV is Great Dane > Saint Bernard >
Weimaraner > Irish setter > Gordon Setter._

I’ve seen mentions of a GSD study, as @Jax08 noted, but don’t have any references to hand and no time to rummage around for any until this evening. If I’m able to find something, I’ll come back and edit it in. 

Regarding breed predisposition, there are two things to keep in mind. First, most of that data is limited by self-report. (See my above comments about breeder forthrightness). For example, GDV is not uncommon in wolfhounds and my own experience is illustrative. Yet, the breed frequently doesn’t appear in incidence/predisposition lists. It is what it is. So, with additional data, more breeds may show up. Second, it’s important to keep in mind that while certain breeds may be more predisposed to GDV, virtually any dog can develop this. 
@LuvShepherds:_ I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?_

Well, there is rather a LOT of opaque terminology. LOL. To my knowledge, no one really _knows _what causes GDV, though it seems clear (IMO) that there’s no one, easily identifiable cause — which makes it really difficult to talk about prevention. That’s also why there have been separate lines of investigation. There are several recommendations in the lay literature (e.g., avoid exercise before and after feeding, don’t use raised bowls) but many of those aren’t supported by current studies — too many exceptions. 

DISCLAIMER: I am not a vet, nor a breeder or a geneticist, yada yada; I’m also speculating in what follows. Since we’re basically talking about gastric issues here (GDV, IBS, IBD), I would and have put my dogs on viable probiotics as SOP, changing which probiotics I use as I gain more information. I look at it this way: It can’t hurt, it’s likely to boost the dog’s immune system, which is a good thing (I’m on probiotics myself), and it _may _ act prophylactically with GDV in certain cases. (Oh, note that when I say “viable probiotics” I mean probiotics for which there is supportive, scientific data; many/most don’t have that).

That said, I believe that the most effective things that dog owners can do are (1) learn the symptoms of GDV, (2) keep simethecone on hand/in the car for immediate use in an emergency, and (3) in consultation with your vet, record the proper dosage for each dog in the household and put that information in the same packet. *GDV is a life threatening emergency*. If you suspect that your dog is bloating, do not hesitate. Administer the simethecone immediately and head for the ER. When you get there, tell staff what you administered and when.
@LuvShepherds_ The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesn’t seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed. _ 

Yes, but personally, I wouldn’t take overmuch comfort in what one might call a ‘distance hypothesis;’ that is, the further removed a pup is, generationally speaking, from a known case, the safer the pup is from GDV. We just don’t know enough yet, certainly this nongeneticist doesn’t. For example, later studies may identify what are currently unknown factors and, in turn, that information could boost the coefficient considerably. We’ve known for some time GDV is heritable, but still we don’t know all of the setting conditions for genetic transmission never mind expression (GDV itself). Then too, there’s always the pesky problem of epigenetics...

Hope this helps; post questions if anything I said was unclear.

Aly


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No, I don’t have any more information than you do. Most of the articles I have seen are anecdotal. I’m now trying to read the original studies, but the technical medical terminology is slowing me down. I am trying to learn everything I can on the subject.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Aly 

Seger is entered in that study. I can send you what I have. PM me your email address.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

LuvShepherds said:


> Very high drive, over the top in some of his progeny. Mal-like intensity. My dog is high drive but much calmer, although he is a few generations removed from Vito.


Depends on the pedigree. With the Vito progeny, excellent drive and focus. And huge heart dogs. Great combination.

We bred Freya (Vito daughter) to Enzo and knew that it would be a tough breeding. Great combo from the two.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I plowed through the article and it does seem that genetics, even going back several generations, is correlated with the tendency to develop GDV. I know someone who rescues standard poodles and every one of their dogs going back ten years, has bloated. None were related to one another but I don’t know or understand that breeds lineage. Given some of us have Vito progeny, how do we prevent it? I know this is off the subject of the OP’s question about a puppy, but it affects many of us. I can’t feed a complete raw diet, as mine is allergic to chicken and after evaluating the preparations required for raw, I didn’t think I could give him a balanced enough diet without it. I looked into Honest Kitchen and their product is based on chicken too. I am currently soaking dry kibble, but that is apparently not right either. I am open to suggestions. My dog’s stomach has been tacked but tacks can rip loose if they bloat.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Smithie86 said:


> Depends on the pedigree. With the Vito progeny, excellent drive and focus. And huge heart dogs. Great combination.
> 
> We bred Freya (Vito daughter) to Enzo and knew that it would be a tough breeding. Great combo from the two.


My dog has high drive but is calm and balanced. Vito is his great grandfather.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I started a new thread on bloat prevention so others can find it. I feel badly taking the OP’s thread so far off topic even though it’s an important subject. https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/748795-gdv-bloat-prevention.html


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though Bloat May have hereditary component, dietary and exercise/training practices are also major contributors to this condition. Vito is also unfairly maligned in my opinion by the popularity and number of dogs bred to him that were not good choices. No matter which stud dog you cite, when they are bred to excessively and bred to by folks throwing together two titled dogs you are going to get bad breedings resulting in increases in issues in health, temperament and longevity....pure and simple. When bred knowledgeably as demonstrated by Sue,( Smith86), I think Vito has been asset to the breed.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Opsoclonus said:


> I wasn't able to meet with the mother (she was said to be aggressive)


OP, I have a few minutes and wanted to add several thoughts. I got distracted by the GDV discussion and forgot to bring them up. First, I think she's a very pretty girl who looks to have decent conformation (nothing leaps out at me), but I'm far from an expert. Second, if I'm recalling correctly, she's 4 months which seems a tad old. So, if she _is_ 4 months, I'd want to know why the breeder kept her (did the pup 'wash out' of preliminary screening for IPO, for example?). 

Finally, you said that you weren't able to meet the mother because she was "said to be aggressive." _That's a potential red flag to me_, of potentially equal concern to any possible GDV in the pup's background, for example. I'd want not only to see/meet the mother (they should be able to arrange for you to do that safely), but also to get a more detailed description of what the breeder meant by "aggressive" (e.g., aggressive with whom and under what circumstances, humans only or dogs as well, warning barks or charging with/without biting). That the puppy _seemed _submissive and friendly may or may not be meaningful; she's still a puppy. 

In the grand scheme of things, there are no absolutes in any of this. To me, the guiding questions are how: much experience you have (with dogs, in general, and GSDs in specific) and how much additional knowledge/experience you're willing to seek out, what you plan to do with the dog and how flexible those plans are, and what kinds of behaviors/temperament are you're willing to live with? The answers are different for each person. Health is important but, for me, temperament and character pretty much trump pretty much everything else. That said, the kinds of temperament that I'm willing to live and cherish are specific/desirable only to me. Each individual is different.

More things for you to mull over, I'm afraid. 

Aly


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## Opsoclonus (Jul 29, 2018)

Aly said:


> In the grand scheme of things, there are no absolutes in any of this. To me, the* guiding questions* are how: much experience you have (with dogs, in general, and GSDs in specific) and how much additional knowledge/experience you're willing to seek out, what you plan to do with the dog and how flexible those plans are, and what kinds of behaviors/temperament are you're willing to live with? The answers are different for each person. Health is important but, for me, temperament and character pretty much trump pretty much everything else. That said, the kinds of temperament that I'm willing to live and cherish are specific/desirable only to me. Each individual is different.
> 
> More things for you to mull over, I'm afraid.
> 
> Aly


Thank you kindly for taking time to retroactively provide your thoughts. She _is_ very pretty :grin2::grin2: Your "guiding questions" are something each should consider in their search. I have pondered many of the same questions you have proposed. I am certain of how to proceed in moving forward. Thank you all for your guidance.

The input I have received here really shed a light to the fact that I had done sufficient research into the breed (i.e., history, purpose, intelligence, common ailments) and the dog herself (i.e., biddability, temperament, nerves, drive, sociability, conformation) yet insufficient in selecting an experienced breeder. 

I did see the red flags but made a less informed decision at that time. 
When I asked about the age of the pup, the breeder honestly stated that these pups weren't ideal in protection work for his typical clientele. 
Although I didn't meet the mother, I was able to meet a 1 yo female of the same breeding who was of similar temperament to the pup. Indeed, I did forget what it's like for a puppy to behave as a puppy. Suffice to say, if they're around - you _must_ meet both the parents. 

I will admit that I don't have much experience with uncontrolled and aggressive dogs; barring a philosophical discussion here, I assume this is either intentional or a lack of training.

There was no sense that this breeder was dishonest, running a puppy mill, etc. I believe it to be simply a lack of exposure for my inability to see his inexperience with breeding. As Lee correctly stated, there is risk for all parties involved. As with most everything, knowledge must come first. 


The first place I came to learn after joining this forum was here at 'Bloodlines & Pedigrees'. So in hopes that anybody who stumbles across here will gain some insight into the selection process, I'll write a little about the research I had done and where I had failed to develop a complete understanding of selection. Feel free to add your experience and additional advice. 


Upon encountering pedigrees my understanding was that the main purpose was to keep records in order to recognize health/awards for breeders to get an idea of a particular dogs skill set or capabilities based on their lineage. For the breeder, a method to select which desirable traits to pass on to the progeny for their customer. 

For the consumer I understood the pedigree to be a source of desired lineage and determining the chance of health concerns mainly, hip dysplasia & joint malformation. (I'm more familiar to the information provided by Mendelian genetics and the associated Punnet squares) 

Where I failed was in contacting more breeders. 
My suggestion is to call up and talk to at least 3-5 breeders. This is important to understand and recognize those who have the knowledge + passion for their dogs and breeding. 
When meet with one who lacks a similar passion or experience it will be glaringly evident. This may or may not reflect in the dog, although often times it will. Be cognizant of the fact that these are puppies and their personalities are still developing.

This forum is an excellent source to find experienced breeders. I contacted many from here, I had a thousand questions and they all had a thousand(+1) knowledgable answers. The more you know about what you want, the better they are able to help you in your search. 

Importantly, be patient! 
My last puppy was 'meant for me'. We met at the shelter- without knowing anything about her and just upon first sight, I knew instantaneously we would spend the next 15 years together- obviously it had to be mutual. I went into this process searching for more of the same. What I didn't know at that time was that there was something within me that understood why; whether it be instinctually or not - the answer existed. 

It was a rude awakening, that even in the search for a new pup, that time has changed. 
With the advent of the internet we use it to compare and contrast photos & breeders, we formulate expectations and opinions prior to a healthy discussion/meeting with the breeder and dog. 

Even now I find it difficult to look at a picture and get an idea for a dog's attributes. Of course there is an instinctual sense one may gather to distinguish one from another, yet the picture becomes clear only after speaking to the breeder. While speaking to the breeder you will get an idea of the environment the pups are raised in, their exposure to different stimuli, and an idea of the parents' nature (i.e., temperament, drive, sociability, etc.). This quick relationship you build with the breeder allows you to understand the narrative behind the photo.

I have learned that this is an entirely different process from what it was with my last puppy and that is what made her unique. 

I understand now that in this process of selection, the relationship with the breeder is just as important as the puppy themselves. If you're scouring the internet for a companion, asking yourself @Aly 's guiding questions and with this knowledge, you'll be well on your way to making an informed decision and finding a good fit for you. 

Good luck! :gsdsit:


Links that are helpful: 
Temperament

The Pedigree: (1) (2)

Genetics

Preparing for your puppy


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