# If you created a new protection dog sport



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

... I have a similar thread in another forum, but wanted to have it here as well.

What would it look like. Give me a rule, an exercise, a judging factor, whatever.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

My friends played this game awhile ago. Seemed most wanted it to be more like KNPV. Less healing, more agility, more fight from the decoy, still *complete control* (ie dog outs perfectly and is obedient). Tracking wasn't step for step. Trying to remember the other stuff. Trial was more random (not the same steps/attack times every time). Hmmm.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> My friends played this game awhile ago. Seemed most wanted it to be more like KNPV. Less healing, more agility, more fight from the decoy, still *complete control* (ie dog outs perfectly and is obedient). Tracking wasn't step for step. Trying to remember the other stuff. Trial was more random (not the same steps/attack times every time). Hmmm.


I agree about tracking, and fight form decoy, and obedience, and randomness. Don't care about agility in so much as I wouldn't grade a large beast of a dog less for being less agile than a tiny wirey dog... the former brings power where the latter cannot, but makes up for with speed/agility.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> I agree about tracking, and fight form decoy, and obedience, and randomness. Don't care about agility in so much as I wouldn't grade a large beast of a dog less for being less agile than a tiny wirey dog... the former brings power where the latter cannot, but makes up for with speed/agility.


By agility I didn't mean those weave poles or tunnels or anything, I meant more fighting the decoy in situations that require the dog to be agile, exposing possible nerve, etc. I would't be concerned on time or "beauty" in the dog performing "agility" like tasks, more so...can the dog do it, without freaking out, avoiding, or shutting down. If that makes sense.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

It'd be cool if a track could end with a bark/hold or attack from a decoy.....hmmm this is fun.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Protection...I really like the 360 exercise in SDA, I would include that and possibly other exercises where the handler is turning the dog on, and then off (and the dog is penalized for either not shutting off, or shutting off before told), and similar exercises where the dog must show courage and power but no biting. I think a lot of animals are secure biting/on a sleeve and I like to see them work under pressure without that option. Also I think the friendly greeting and re-friendly greeting at the end are important. I like to see the control.

Obedience....other than the BH being so long a boring I rather like SchH obedience. I might add something like sending the dog out to do some commands at a distance (sit, down, stand) and then maybe a drop-on-recall since I think that's a very important exercise practically speaking (I think being able to platz/down the dog any time at any distance is more important than a recall).

Tracking...I really don't know enough about it to say. Maybe make the lower level tracks a bit longer but not require the handler to always be 33' back? That would suit me well


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not sure about much else, but I do know that I like the Schutzhund obedience the way that it is, and definitely wouldn't like to see that watered down any more. I think the precision of it is what makes it so challenging, for me at least.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I would like to see more realistic scenario based tests in the protection. That would include the dog having to show more fortitude and determination. So maybe including some "agility" to the bite,I.e climb steps, stand on unstable footing, have to actually search to find the decoy before biting, stuff like that. Don't like a strict routine. 

For tracking, would like it to be more realistic. Foot step to foot step, is not practical in a real world scenario. 

I like the obedience portion. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Here ya go! I would love to see Gryff do the jump shute, the wall, and take the guy off the bike:


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Please, don't call it "sport". Agility is a sport on its own, Schutzhund competition consisting of three parts ( winter/summer biathlon principally could be called its human equivalent) is a sport. But, neither hunting living creatures, or training your dog to hunt humans and deal with tools which hurt the dog, mimicking some military training could possibly be called a sport. No offence, try to understand. Sport is something international, while nothing stops you booking your participation in the World class Schutzhund German Shepherd Schutzhund Club , training protection only is typical only to US and US way of life.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hunting humans . . . hmmmm . . . now THAT would be a sport!


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

U.S.R.W.P. S. United STATES Real WORLD Protection Sports! 
Humm? Sign me. Up!
I made that up" but I like everyones ideas! 
I think it would be too cool! The U.S. leading the way" like we used to do.Maybe muzzle hits" hidden sleeve" drop on recall" 
Guarding of object! Turn the dog on and off! If he can't turn off" fail! Timed tracking? No footsteps" maybe both air scent and footsteps! Great! Idea! Hope it would happen! Bill


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would like to see the SDA/KNPV blending. I'm not really a fan of pattern training or boring routines. 
I like doing protection challenges where the scenario's are given at the time of the challenge. It keeps it fun for both the handler and the dog. Though the judging is a total mess, lol.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

As others have said, more realistic search scenarios would be cool (but could make a trial go very long). Hidden sleeve/muzzle scenarios. I like the agility/bite idea too. Honestly, it's a lot of things that SDA has to offer. I really like Jane's idea of SDA/KNPV cross.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I kinda like it the way it is, if it were easy high school kids would be doing it


----------



## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Please, don't call it "sport". Agility is a sport on its own, Schutzhund competition consisting of three parts ( winter/summer biathlon principally could be called its human equivalent) is a sport. But, neither hunting living creatures, or training your dog to hunt humans and deal with tools which hurt the dog, mimicking some military training could possibly be called a sport. No offence, try to understand. Sport is something international, while nothing stops you booking your participation in the World class Schutzhund German Shepherd Schutzhund Club , training protection only is *typical only to US and US way of life*.


What are you babbling about? Do you even live in the US?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

TexasCrane said:


> What are you babbling about? Do you even live in the US?


I think DT lives where the Olympics are being held.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I think DT lives where the Olympics are being held.


Lol


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would bring back the old SchH (minus the on lead heeling in obedience). ATTACK (not a run sideways rabbit bite) out of the blind in the 1, search of the helper at the pick up, reed stick and the old style courage test that challenge the dog to change drives during the attack. Free up the tracking especially at the breeding title level (SchH1). The 1 level was the breed test so should test the natural abilities of the dog and not the nit picky training of the handler (leave that to the 3 level). Dog can only pass with a 70-70-80.

Maybe add a wall like this at the 2 and 3 level. Still challenge the dogs more without the pounding on the front end that could be created with the old vertical wall. 

I like how the AWD1 does allow the leash a bit more in protection at the 1 level and the second helper attack in the AWD2. Also the articles on their AWD3 tracks can be unusual objects and not just 1.5"X4" standard articles like in IPO.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Of course then we have to actually have judges that know what the heck they are seeing and not just point judges. 

OH and bring back the point system for courage, hardness and fight drive and get rid of the stupid TSB. A 10 pronounced would be different than an 8 and a 7 VH would not be as horrible (VH=present was not always a deathnell to dogs years ago) compared to the 5. Of course insufficient would always suck.


----------



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Agreed with the tracking!! More real world tracking not judging the dog on how well it keeps it's nose to the ground, but what about how quickly and accurately it finds the object or person? I feel like we would majorly fail at schutzhund because I learned tracking and article searches from a police trainer. Anna RUNS to what ever it is we are looking for, she finds it as quickly as possible and is very very excited about it 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am a good friend with a MANY years SAR/USAR/detection handler. She also does IPO/SchH and has found the foundation her dogs got in SchH was excellent for their other endeavors. Her dogs do track more freely than what would be expected for high V scores in today's trials. This is what I would like to see. Showing the dog's more natural abilities to follow the track without being so fast that they miss dropped objects along the way. More like the what is seen in DPO.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Lisa proposes would go a long way toward weeding out dogs that shouldn't be bred....that's a good thing. It would also change the structure to being more moderate. It would also help character....


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would like to see detection involved. Most dual purpose working dogs do far more detection work than bite work on the street. Not that I have anything against bite work, but the majority of a working dogs job is overlooked in combined dog sports. I'm separating detection from tracking.

If I were to design a detection sport, it would mimic real world open area, route clearance, building and vehicle searches. The events would test the ability of the dogs, as well as their hunt drive, endurance and stamina.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Detection work under pressure. Being able to find a track or a scent article with a decoy present. I think that'd be a tremendous challenge, and really impressive to see done well.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Take two dogs that aren't super possessive but very drivey and pit them against each other on a tug of some sort. First one to give up loses!


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

don't insult the Russians.



onyx'girl said:


> I think DT lives where the Olympics are being held.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

In the long down a small child should wander over and try to ride the dog like a pony holding into his ears. Dog must remain calm, keep the down


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lol


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> In the long down a small child should wander over and try to ride the dog like a pony holding into his ears. Dog must remain calm, keep the down


ahee

What, no bonus points for giving the kid a ride?


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Detection work under pressure. Being able to find a track or a scent article with a decoy present. I think that'd be a tremendous challenge, and really impressive to see done well.



May not be what your talking about, but at my old schH club we used to track with a helper on each side of the dogs and sometimes even trash on the track. Talk about distractions haha.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

That's pretty much what I meant, yeah. Not so much "can you find the track/article with a dude right up in your face" as "can you focus on the job with a potential threat/distraction on the other side of the field."

Maybe it's just because of my experiences with Pongu (who is still learning the Utility scent articles), but right now I have a _lot_ of respect for a dog who has the focus to do a totally unrelated job that involves potentially turning his back on a "dangerous" distraction 75' to 100' away. Obedience under distraction is impressive in its own right, but at the moment it seems to me that scent work would be even harder.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post, David Winners....if you can delete elements out of SCH .....then certainly something can be added that would enhance the breed's usefulness in the working world. 
Lisa's post about SCH being good foundation for other endeavors is not only a good point,( that is my value of IPO ), but is a primary reason to alter or reinstate some of the older techniques.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. :thumbup: My trainer is starting to do that with Ilda while tracking now. 



mycobraracr said:


> May not be what your talking about, but at my old schH club we used to track with a helper on each side of the dogs and sometimes even trash on the track. Talk about distractions haha.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We've always had the helpers walk tracks with us. 
One of them, my dog hated and the helper ended up not following along after a few tracks, it wasn't fair to my dog as he was still learning....one eye on the track and one keeping track of the helper had him focusing more on the helper than running his track. 

We hadn't seen the helper for 2 yrs and recently at a protection seminar my dog spotted him in a group of people, and never took his eyes off him.


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

When you talk about the helper walking along with you on the track do you mean the helper in his regular clothes or the helper with his sleeve on?

If the former, we do it all the time so I never thought of it being a "thing". If the latter, no way my dog is getting through that track!!! but that's OK with me, although would be a really cool proofing exercise.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my case, no sleeve or scratchpants....we're tracking, not trying to proof his control.


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> In my case, no sleeve or scratchpants....we're tracking, not trying to proof his control.


I hear you, I don't know if I would have or will do that in the future either just wanted to make sure my understanding of what I'm reading here is correct


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm talking sleeve and scratch pants. One on each side.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And does the dog successfully track without pressure and corrections? I don't see how it could be possible with my dog. NO way would he keep on tracking for an article.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Yup! Dog was successful. The helpers were neutral. They were not antagonizing the dog or anything, just walking.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Yup! Dog was successful. The helpers were neutral. They were not antagonizing the dog or anything, just walking.


Cobra I like your style! Bill


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> Yup! Dog was successful. The helpers were neutral. They were not antagonizing the dog or anything, just walking.


Nice! Einstein would be running through the track, cutting every corner, whining the entire time. Oh he will finish the track, but just as I described it above hehe


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

bill said:


> Cobra I like your style! Bill





ayoitzrimz said:


> Nice! Einstein would be running through the track, cutting every corner, whining the entire time. Oh he will finish the track, but just as I described it above hehe



Thanks guys but I can't take credit for it. Like a good employee, I just do as I'm told. 

This talk made me think of something. We always talk about the dogs being "about the man, not the equipment", then why is it so difficult for handlers to control their dogs around a neutral decoy? This is one reason I prefer some of the other sports out there other than schH. They actually require that type of control.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think it is fair for a young dog in learning stage to have to be proofed on control in that way. Of course a dog that is mature, already knows how to track and is confident in the protection, there should be control at all times.
My dog isn't a sleeve happy dog at all, though his favorite thing to do is fight with a helper. If he was given a track to run or a person to spar with, the track will never be his choice....though tracking his way to the fight would make him one happy dog!


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks guys but I can't take credit for it. Like a good employee, I just do as I'm told.
> 
> *This talk made me think of something. We always talk about the dogs being "about the man, not the equipment", then why is it so difficult for handlers to control their dogs around a neutral decoy?* This is one reason I prefer some of the other sports out there other than schH. They actually require that type of control.


Expand on this thought, please.  I have been thinking about the same thing lately. I have seen some hard, HARD, defensive dogs, in police training, who don't give a crap about a sleeve. Their handlers have to and do have *complete* control over them in everything, tracking, obedience, etc....They can and do perform under great distraction/temptation. Of course there are departments whose dogs that are "felony only" deployed, I think that's more a training thing...and a different discussion maybe.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Expand on this thought, please.  I have been thinking about the same thing lately. I have seen some hard, HARD, defensive dogs, in police training, who don't give a crap about a sleeve. Their handlers have to and do have *complete* control over them in everything, tracking, obedience, etc....They can and do perform under great distraction/temptation. Of course there are departments whose dogs that are "felony only" deployed, I think that's more a training thing...and a different discussion maybe.



People often don't do enough control work. A neutral decoy should be seen by the dog as just any Joe Shmoe on the street. We all seem to teach puppies to bark and bite, bark and bite, bark and bite. That's it! Why? Because we love the intensity of it all. IMO it can also create a lot of hectic behavior and limits the dogs ability to think. Yet when people ask on here about bite work the response is always " the dogs learn to tell the difference between a threat and non-threat." Really? Then why is a non-threatening decoy such a challenge to work around? In a lot of cases, it's because the only time the dog see's the decoy, sleeve or suit, it's biting it. It has not been shown to work around it without a bite. I lost my train of thought so I'm going to end here.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And some dogs hate 'certain' people, so when 'certain' people are in their realm the dog is on high alert. 
I love doing control work, one reason I enjoy the SDA exercises, it shows so much more than the IPO routines. 
But it does take time to get that level of control, waiting for mental maturity.....


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

First, by neutral decoy do you mean just the helper, no equipment walking next to you? 

Second, and this may be stupid, but if we(collective) are looking for dogs that bite the man not the sleeve, are more serious, not only prey driven, but serious, then why would we expect them to be okay with the decoy, ever? I mean, if it's NOT a game(or so we like to kid ourselves) then a dog who, every time sees a person has to defend himself and his owner, why on earth would we think they would ever be okay with them. Threatening in that moment or not? That helper dude "attacks us" every time we see him. He is a bad guy. Right? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

mycobracar, danifani just curious how many dogs have you titled to high level tracking before? Or IPO3 for that matter? SDA3 (whatever the equivalent is)? Just for my own edification. If I recall there's no tracking in SDA right? Do you have any videos of your dog tracking with a helper on the field? 

Honestly, I just didn't care enough to try it, but I can tell you right now control work or no control work I've yet to see a dog be brought out to a track with a helper on the field for the first time and NOT make mistakes or rush through it. I don't need the conflict with my dog nor do I want to encourage rushing through the track so I've never done this exercise before. In other words there are OTHER ways to teach control work, and IMO (just my humble opinion) the tracking field is not really the best place for that.

But, let's stay off the high horses until you can show us some results maybe? Or maybe our dogs are inferior to yours. I'm not planning to breed mine, so I can live with that


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

SDA does have tracking.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> First, by neutral decoy do you mean just the helper, no equipment walking next to you?
> 
> *That helper dude "attacks us" every time we see him.* He is a bad guy. Right?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



You nailed it right here! *Every* time the dog is on the field with a decoy it's biting. We have some dogs in my group that have gone months without a bite. They are still working around a decoy with equipment on. He even makes noise, cracks a whip or whatever. 

By neutral decoy, I mean one that is not posing a threat. Equipment is not the threat. The persons actions are. 



ayoitzrimz said:


> mycobracar, danifani just curious how many dogs have you titled to high level tracking before? Or IPO3 for that matter? SDA3 (whatever the equivalent is)? Just for my own edification. If I recall there's no tracking in SDA right? Do you have any videos of your dog tracking with a helper on the field?
> 
> Honestly, I just didn't care enough to try it, but I can tell you right now control work or no control work I've yet to see a dog be brought out to a track with a helper on the field for the first time and NOT make mistakes or rush through it. I don't need the conflict with my dog nor do I want to encourage rushing through the track so I've never done this exercise before. In other words there are OTHER ways to teach control work, and IMO (just my humble opinion) the tracking field is not really the best place for that.
> 
> But, let's stay off the high horses until you can show us some results maybe? Or maybe our dogs are inferior to yours. I'm not planning to breed mine, so I can live with that



Not on a high horse just talking about what I see. No I have not titled a dog high in tracking. The trainer I worked for when we did this was a world competitor though. My comments weren't just about tracking but in all area's of dog sport/training. I can tell some are offended so I stop asking for control now.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I get as much control has I can without making the dog go flat in the work. I could get better points by getting crisper control, but then the dogs are not as impressive in the work as their drive has been crushed by absolute control. 
Lastnight a coworker of my girlfriends said to her "Jesus Christ how are you so comfortable with that dog". Thats how I want my dogs perceived after watching them work. We never may go high in trial, but we will always make an impression lol.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

ayoitzrimz said:


> mycobracar, danifani just curious how many dogs have you titled to high level tracking before? Or IPO3 for that matter? SDA3 (whatever the equivalent is)? Just for my own edification. If I recall there's no tracking in SDA right? Do you have any videos of your dog tracking with a helper on the field?
> 
> Honestly, I just didn't care enough to try it, but I can tell you right now control work or no control work I've yet to see a dog be brought out to a track with a helper on the field for the first time and NOT make mistakes or rush through it. I don't need the conflict with my dog nor do I want to encourage rushing through the track so I've never done this exercise before. In other words there are OTHER ways to teach control work, and IMO (just my humble opinion) the tracking field is not really the best place for that.
> 
> But, let's stay off the high horses until you can show us some results maybe? Or maybe our dogs are inferior to yours. I'm not planning to breed mine, so I can live with that


Woah, no need to get so offended and defensive. No one was ona high horse and no one said yyour dog isn't super duper awesome. ;-) Nope, haven't trained a dog to high levels in tracking. Have watched several club members not only achieve high levels training with distractions like helpers walking the track, also see police K9s trained that are way harder than most.... One old member on trial day, tracked through a FLOCK of geese 20 feet off the track. There is a pic of this on her website. Dog was successful with very high scores 98/99. I don't need to own the dog, to see that the training worked lol. 

Cobra and I were just commenting on the fact that we've both seen, very hard dogs, be under complete control. It just caused pause to wonder what would happen if the out of control dogs were made to be in control.... That's all... But the old forum at its best, with deflective techniques in debate of "you don't know anything" and the sarcastic "guess your dog is better than mine." Rather than just discussing the topic. It's like those people who get all flustered in debates, yell about how someone is attacking them and mean, and storm off in a huff, trying to discredit the person, rather than just talk about what we're discussing. 

Hunter, this is what I was talking about. I've seen videos of your male worked, on the table and everything. I wouldn't guess you would lose as much oomph as you think, but I don't know anything. ;-) This is what I was asking about, here's a dog that's strong, owner admits he trains a certain way because he likes the impression. There's nothing wrong with that, his dog, his training. People just get so emotional and defensive if you ask questions or express what you've seen work that's different than what they're doing. I like talking about all kinds of things. But mums the word around here I guess. ~shrug~


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't really followed the thread as of late, but YES there is tracking in SDA though it is not required.

I am one that values control. I don't personally like watching performances where the dogs are just ever so barely over the line of control. However this is a personal preference. I've known some of these dogs and see how they are trained and a lot of it is just personal differences in priority and training, they are still great dogs. I've heard other people say they like to see a dog that looks like he's on the verge of being out of control. I value control but for me that doesn't mean squashing the dog, I just tend to seek out a dog that naturally has a higher threshold and secondary obedience. Also I like when dogs can load and cap. I use control as a means of working the dog in a higher state of drive, not to squash it. No I have never won HIT SchH3, this is just how I like to work dogs and SDA is a pretty good fit for me. 

I have tracked my dog with the helper not only on the field but standing over him, though the helper was not in helper gear. He was our TD and did all the training helper work on my dog and trained me how to track my dogs. While we were preparing for trial and doing some different things to put more pressure on the dog, he would walk up on my dog and stand next to him, right behind him, etc while he tracked. Yes, I could see that the dog knew he was there and in his personal space but he did work through it and thus never made mistakes tracking because of judges or other people being near him, closer to him than me, or standing at a distance on the field while tracking. No, he was not a perfect trial tracker but tracking was his best scores in both SDA and SchH (and my least favorite phase, go figure).


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm not familiar with SDA, but I would love to detection added to PSA. I think the control and understanding the dog needs to excel in PSA is great to watch.

I think a multi venue detection event would make PSA a well rounded sport. 

David Winners


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If the dog is being prepared to be a working dog, and you are using SCH as a foundation, then I think once the dog has reached the three level, I see no problem with this type of training for reasons of additional control and neutralizing the chances of dog becoming totally" sleeve happy". If the dog is a sport dog, by that I mean a career SCH dog that will go from puppy to retirement doing nothing but SCH on only sleeves and perfect helpers, then i think this type of training would be detrimental to career goal.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

SchH was meant as an all around test for suitability. Human nature made it sport. We need to make the breed test again at least at the SchH1 level. Let the rest be sport.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you are a breeder though-you could just devise your own breed test-I really enjoy watching knpv


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> If you are a breeder though-you could just devise your own breed test-I really enjoy watching knpv


you could, but purchasers want to see more than what a breeders opinion is of a breedworthy test.
Some would have the bar set very high, others would think a CGC certification on a dog is worth reproducing that dog.

Because this thread was started due to the change in the FCI rule regarding stick hits, I thought this link should be shared here....I'm in total agreement with Brian.
End of Schutzhund? | PronouncedK9


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

One thing I would do different is it wouldnt be on a field. More realistic places like inside a building or city/suburban streets. I also like detection over formal tracking.


----------

