# Got input from a trainer on my dogs aggression



## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I was at Obedience class last night and was having my dog go to the bathroom outside, everything was fine then I walked over to throw the poop bag out and she started barking at another dog with hackles up. This ended up being the trainers dog. Later in class the trainer brought her dog in to class and my dog didn't even look at her just completely focused on me. She didn't react to any other dogs in the building. She has been at dog parks, in fenced in areas off leash with other dogs and never had a problem. She has even worked on recalls off leash in class surrounded by dogs and there has never been a problem. 

I talked to the trainer after class and she said from what she observed she thinks it is the dogs herding/guarding instincts acting up. She doesn't act up in the building because she has learned that it is a place with a set of rules. Outside of the building she sees dogs and doesn't like something about the situation, like they are not in the right place or acting the right way she lets them know. I had never really thought of it like that before. 

Her suggestion was that I work on my dog always concentrating on me when she is on the leash outside. Praise her when she makes eye contact with me. If I notice another dog coming along try to get her to focus on me instead of correcting her bad behavior towards the other dog. Eventually the dog will realize that I am her focus and not to worry about what the other dogs are doing. 

Any opinions on this observation or suggestion? I really want to fix this behavior other than this issue she is the perfect dog!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

She's young, she's just being reactive (not aggressive) because something about the dog/the situation set her off. 

Instead of asking her to never acknowledge the other dog and always look at you, in my classes we teach LAT (look at that) training with great success. 

She sees a dog? She gets a mark/treat. Dogs eventually become a cue to look at you for further direction and a positive experience. DON'T correct a dog for barking at another dog or you are teaching "Wow, my owner gets really mad when I see other dogs and sometimes it hurts, I must be right in barking at them to get them to go away because they're bad."

My GSD was reactive from about 8mos to a year old. We worked with this training religiously, and now he is the demo dog for my classes and can easily walk through a huge crowd of dogs without glancing twice at them.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think what I'd do is ask the trainer to have a few out-of-class sessions, working with her dog, to have her teach you exactly how to do what she's suggesting. Lots of people here do train this, so maybe it's a good idea for you. I don't do that, but telling you not to when your trainer is trying to help you wouldn't be in your best interest, lol. Good luck


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a dog reactive dog. In your case, I suspect weak nerves so I think I know a little of the back story (but I could have the wrong person!). Do what Danielle said. 

LAT
Leave It
BAT

Learn these three things. Sometimes looking at the other dog will be to much for them so learn all of it, work below her threshhold and teach her the tools to deal with the sight of another dog. And you have to give them permission to LOOK at what is bothering them! I went the route of having Jax's focus on me instead of allowing her to look. It made it worse.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Learn these three things. Sometimes looking at the other dog will be to much for them so learn all of it, work below her threshhold and teach her the tools to deal with the sight of another dog.


Great point! If she starts to react - increase distance so that you are working "below her threshold" - where she can keep her head on her shoulders and wants to take treats/is not fixated entirely on the other dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sometimes, all it takes is the 'stink eye' from the other dog to set off your dog. When I'm in an environment with other dogs, I try to keep an eye on all the dogs around me as well. There seems to always be one, sitting quietly, giving the stink eye. When I see that, I'll step so I'm blocking that dog's view of my dog. 

A good clue to which dog will be your problem, is watch what dog your dog keeps trying to focus on.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks for the input. I will be reading up on LAT and BAT. We have tried leave it which works for things other than dogs and it sometimes works for dogs but when she gets worked up it is like there is nothing else in the world. 

Do you think LAT would work when it seems very random what dogs she reacts to? She can walk directly next to five dogs and then reacts to one.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Yes. It will build up much more of a precedent so that no matter WHAT dog she sees, she looks to you instead of fixating on the dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe it was just simple as being startled by this dog. If she is OK in other dog's presences it may have been just a fluke. I would just keep an eye on this and yes, if she sees another dog: treats, treats and treats, especially with this particular one that scared her.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I fully agree with your trainer about your dog focusing on you, but I wouldn't bother about her barks. It was easy for her to isolate that dog from the environment, that's why she barked. My dog too, she wouldn't move her head being amongst a barking, whining and growling crowd, but would be all alert and reactive seeing a lonely occasional walker in the wild woods. Then, dogs bark like that at some other dog sometimes if bored or tired. Your dog will bark at some passing dog if you stand and chat with your friend you just met for too long, so to make you to leave and walk on. Maybe, you were busy with that bag for too long and she wanted to be back ( or go home).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would agree with Danielle on this one.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I started working on LAT in my house with a toy in a room with no distrations. Once I feel she has it down pretty strong and understands it's a game we will slowly add in variables and build to doing it around actual dogs. Thanks for the suggestions I hope I am doing it correctly. I am going to be reading up as much as I can on it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Okin said:


> I started working on LAT in my house with a toy in a room with no distrations. Once I feel she has it down pretty strong and understands it's a game we will slowly add in variables and build to doing it around actual dogs. Thanks for the suggestions I hope I am doing it correctly. I am going to be reading up as much as I can on it.


That is PERFECT to work on timing. Good job, keep us updated!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Id just tighten up the obedience. When my dogs are young they are taught to pay attention to me because i am super fun and there are rewards involved. After they learn obedience there is a clear separation between dog free time and obedience time. They learn it through a combo of negative reinforcement and positive reinforcement. 

If im in a situation like that and i know other dogs are coming we go into obedience. If they go barking at a strange dog or get distracted when theyre supposed to be on task and they know it because they learned it through training and proofing then they get positive and negative punished for it and they know exactly why.


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

With LAT training do you redirect them towards you as you see another dog approaching. I'm sorry, I just am a bit unsure as to when? I see the signs when my dog is going to react and I was just starting to assume I needed to remove us from the situation. What I mean is that my dog is finally at the point where she will ignore dogs unless they approach her. When she starts to grumble I just give treats and the "look' command which has been working but all bets are off me when someone lets their dog get close to us at Petsmart or a dog not on a leash at the park. Then I become that person with the uncontrollable aggressive dog. In class the dogs are trained and handlers/owners respect that personal space some dogs need but when I am out and about that is when I have problems. Thanks in advance


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

maxdog630 said:


> With LAT training do you redirect them towards you as you see another dog approaching. I'm sorry, I just am a bit unsure as to when? I see the signs when my dog is going to react and I was just starting to assume I needed to remove us from the situation. What I mean is that my dog is finally at the point where she will ignore dogs unless they approach her. When she starts to grumble I just give treats and the "look' command which has been working but all bets are off me when someone lets their dog get close to us at Petsmart or a dog not on a leash at the park. Then I become that person with the uncontrollable aggressive dog. In class the dogs are trained and handlers/owners respect that personal space some dogs need but when I am out and about that is when I have problems. Thanks in advance


No. With LAT you mark when they glance at another dog, before they react (you should be enough of a distance away that they can see thedog but do not react to it) and then reward. You are marking/rewarding them for looking at the dog. 

If you can see the point at which she might start to react, you do need to increase distance and click/treat for calmly looking at the dogs. Then you can work on decreasing distance. 

If you have problems with people getting too close in a pet store, you should be proactive and make sure dogs CAN'T come up to her, and tell the owners to keep their dogs back. Outside, the best you can do is scream and curse (like I do! ) at owners with dogs off leash who are not under control and try to avoid areas where you know that may happen, until the reactivity is under control/always.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I must work LAT differently. I rewarded for her looking at the dog and then looking back at me. I don't want them to fixate on whatever they are reacting too. They CALMLY look at whatever it is and then look back to me.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I must work LAT differently. I rewarded for her looking at the dog and then looking back at me. I don't want them to fixate on whatever they are reacting too. They CALMLY look at whatever it is and then look back to me.


That is what I ultimately reward. But to start, for most dogs you typically have to mark for looking at the dog, because then they are turning back to you for reward, and looking at a dog becomes a cue to look back at you, and you can change your marker! 

It's usually harder to get a dogs attention when they are in a reactive state of mind, even if they aren't reacting, unless there is a marker used to praise them for quietly looking at the dog and turn them back to you for reward. Like shaping, I lower my criteria to calmly looking, then start to expect them to look and look back at me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That is how I shaped it, Danielle. I would point at something inanimate and click for the dog looking. My reward line was back and up so the dog had to look back and up to get the treat. Once they have that, then I clicked for looking and looking back at me.

It is very important to start in a quite place with an inanimate object and work distractions in. It might take a week or might take a month to actually work on what the dog is reactive to.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> That is how I shaped it, Danielle. I would point at something inanimate and click for the dog looking. My reward line was back and up so the dog had to look back and up to get the treat. Once they have that, then I clicked for looking and looking back at me.
> 
> It is very important to start in a quite place with an inanimate object and work distractions in. It might take a week or might take a month to actually work on what the dog is reactive to.


That's a good idea, too. I've never done it this way, but it would work just as well, I'm sure! Do you use a cue, then? I'm not sure I understand how the dog would know to look at a dog (that it was reactive to) and then back to you, based on this?


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I hope I'm doing it correctly. I started with showing her an object and when she looked marked with "yes" then she looked at me and got a treat. Once she was doing this consistently I would say look at that while pulling out the object mark with yes then she looked at me for a treat. Before long I would say look at that she would look at the object then right back at me expecting the treat to come.


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks, yes I do usually catch the signs but sometimes I'm in a spot where I'm stuck. I want to scream at people, believe me, but I just try and move along 
I will start this tomorrow as I do my shopping rounds with my girl for socialization.
One more question, sorry, what collar would you suggest I use on a day to day basis? Some history - yes, we are in a training class but I was never taught the proper use of the prong collar and I believe my dog is desensitized. I found a video on this forum which showed me the fitting I had was incorrect. Bad mistake on my part..... and I did bring it to the attention of the trainer who then said yes, it was too loose. Thanks again.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Okin said:


> I hope I'm doing it correctly. I started with showing her an object and when she looked marked with "yes" then she looked at me and got a treat. Once she was doing this consistently I would say look at that while pulling out the object mark with yes then she looked at me for a treat. Before long I would say look at that she would look at the object then right back at me expecting the treat to come.


Sounds perfect!


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

I don't mean to hijack this thread. Just read the suggestions on here and they seem logical to me.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

maxdog630 said:


> Thanks, yes I do usually catch the signs but sometimes I'm in a spot where I'm stuck. I want to scream at people, believe me, but I just try and move along
> I will start this tomorrow as I do my shopping rounds with my girl for socialization.
> One more question, sorry, what collar would you suggest I use on a day to day basis? Some history - yes, we are in a training class but I was never taught the proper use of the prong collar and I believe my dog is desensitized. I found a video on this forum which showed me the fitting I had was incorrect. Bad mistake on my part..... and I did bring it to the attention of the trainer who then said yes, it was too loose. Thanks again.


Is there a reason a flat or martingale collar wouldn't work? I prefer them usually.


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Is there a reason a flat or martingale collar wouldn't work? I prefer them usually.


 Honestly, at training I was told she needs her prong and choke collar on for barking at other dogs. Which doesn't happen anymore unless she is approached closely by another dog. We can walk up to and shake hands with other members in training and her focus stays on me - no signs of aggression but when we did start last Oct she lunged at another dog. That dog wasn't on a leash and did come up to her but the trainer feels that she shouldn't react to a do a dog regardless..

I have read about the martingale I will go look at that tomorrow but I'm pretty certain that I will be told she cant wait that in class.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

maxdog630 said:


> Honestly, at training I was told she needs her prong and choke collar on for barking at other dogs. Which doesn't happen anymore unless she is approached closely by another dog. We can walk up to and shake hands with other members in training and her focus stays on me - no signs of aggression but when we did start last Oct she lunged at another dog. That dog wasn't on a leash and did come up to her but the trainer feels that she shouldn't react to a do a dog regardless..
> 
> I have read about the martingale I will go look at that tomorrow but I'm pretty certain that I will be told she cant wait that in class.


I would find a new class if any told me what I had to have my dog in. There is no need for either with reactivity because you should absolutely not be correcting a reactive dog, especially in a poorly fitted collar. A choke chain can do a lot of damage as well, for what it's worth.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> I would find a new class if any told me what I had to have my dog in. There is no need for either with reactivity because you should absolutely not be correcting a reactive dog, especially in a poorly fitted collar. A choke chain can do a lot of damage as well, for what it's worth.


I tend to agree.


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I tend to agree.


 I do realize that now. I thought this was the way to correct dog aggression. Looking back I do regret.. I'm gathering a lot of training at this club is fear based? I don't have the dog training knowledge to judge so I really shouldn't say. 

It just seems so difficult to find a good trainer. Everyone states they are experts. If you met my dog you would think she was as gentle as a kitten and she is for the most part - it just that one issue. No treats for obedience anymore just her tug as a reward and my praise. I never used a trainer before, just loved my dogs and treated them like my babies, then I decided to try out the Schutzund club and everything went to crap. 

Thanks for the advice.


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