# Dogs Aren't People



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I haven't posted much at all for a couple of years for a variety of reasons. What I did was drop in and read for awhile. Sometimes reading without worrying about responding can give a very differnt picture of what is going on with our dogs and ourselves as their caretakers.

They are our companions and part of our families and we care for them. Good food, exercise, shelter,medical care etc...

Many now seem to expect them to be things that they are not. They are expected to be surrogate spouses, children, friends, comforters, counselors and more. Sometimes they fulfill peoples needs but to lean on our dogs to be everything is just too much.

We should work on our own problems and let them be dogs. I'm also afraid this dependence on them will cause neurosis, reactivity and other problems for them.

They are magnificent creatures in their own right. Let's let them be dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> They are magnificent creatures in their own right. Let's let them be dogs.



:thumbup:
I can't count the number of times, recently, I've said respect the species they are and stop humanizing them. They are pretty awesome as in their own right.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I am really sick of dog (or cat) as child substitute, significant other, ect. On Petco's front doors now are signs that say Keep Your Pet Parents on Leash. Employees coming and shoving treats in my GSD's face while they ask if they can have a treat. **** No. I am not a pet parent. This is a canine. These pet parent people seem to be mostly urban idiots.

The pet business has become a multi billion dollar industry, I get that.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

I understand your thoughts on that. Been there but life goes on, kids grow up and move on. One day you look in the mirror and you are old and the house is quiet. Nobody comes to see you much anymore. Then you realize I'm a lonely old man and if you are like me you lose your job of 33 years. So you are in a quiet house, old, lonely and unemployed. You get a GSD and he lives totally for you. You arent lonely anymore. That "dog" has turned into a real friend who took some of the darkest days of my life and turned them into the best days of my life. If that makes me guilty of humanizing them or being a pet parent then I wear that guilt proudly.

I'm not an urban idiot, Im a "Southern Country *******".

Just wait till you aint got nobody but a dog for a friend. Your thoughts may change. I hope it happens to you so you will know that joy.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Your dog is Jack and you're Jack's Dad,correct?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Irony


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Dogs are far too wonderful to be compared to the human kind, I have no illusions that they are a different species and have their own code but I proudly say my dogs are my best friends. They are family, but they also have their limits as with any relationship be it your child a spouse or an acquaintance.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Your dog is Jack and you're Jack's Dad,correct?


When I first signed up I threw out the first thing that came to mind based on glancing at other posters usernames and that is what I was stuck with.
I tried to change it because of how I feel about this subject and the administrators would not let me. 

Whatever you think it doesn't change what I have seen or how I feel.

To Shooter. Glad you found something that works for you.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I have a husband, 5 combined children between us, one granddaughter and two dogs. I don't have furbabies, or granddogs, I love my dogs, and dread the day I will lose them, I've been alone in life, and talked to them, relied on them for warmth and companionship but in the end they are dogs. Wonderful and amazing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would bet there are a lot of members on this forum who do think of their dogs as family, fur babies, whatever, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know what you mean Andy. 

Dogs are dogs. While they make good companion animals, and we can enjoy being their trainer and care-taker, and even have a good bond with a dog. Humans need human-relationships, and shouldn't expect their needs to be met by owning a dog or dogs. If we do not make an effort to be active within the human race, we end up putting unrealistic expectations on dogs and we lose perspective.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

My dogs said "hush your thoughts". LOL


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You may not have meant it that way Dad,but your post just sounded cold.The dogs are just things we own and are fond of.Like a favorite pair of shoes or other object.Instead of companions we have deep emotional ties with.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Stuff like pushing vegan diets on dogs and cats is wrong imop. Diets should be species appropriate.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I get Andy's point. Dogs are dogs. To me, we do a disservice to them when we humanize them. They aren't people. They don't think like people. They don't interact like people. I spend more time with my dogs in my free time than I do with any other living being. But I don't expect them to meet my emotional needs. I don't expect them to behave like little furry children. 

Andy didn't sound cold. He ended his post with "They are magnificent creatures in their own right. Let's let them be dogs. " That's not cold. That's appreciative of the creatures they are. Not human. Different. Magnificent. Dogs.

It would be awesome if my 9 yr old with bad hips would act like a 9 yr old with bad hips instead of a 2 yr old instigating trouble and then hurting herself. But..they aren't human so I can't sit her down and explain it to her.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> You may not have meant it that way Dad,but your post just sounded cold.The dogs are just things we own and are fond of.Like a favorite pair of shoes or other object.Instead of companions we have deep emotional ties with.


Well if it sounded cold I really missed the boat. I love my dogs and consider them part of my family. I talk to them and all that stuff. What I don't do is epect them to take care of my needs although they do at times.

I'm trying to address the extremeism that a lot of folks are going to now. 

We are a separate species with different needs. I want my dogs to enjoy their lives as dogs so I take them where they can exercise freely without worrying about every scratch or some other horrible possibility. Let them run, let them be dogs.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Alfred Payson Terhune was an American author, dog breeder, and journalist. I love his books about his collies. He died in 1942. Back then, in his books, dog owners were their dog's master or mistress. Shame our culture can't go back to that terminology.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I get Andy's point. Dogs are dogs. To me, we do a disservice to them when we humanize them. They aren't people. They don't think like people. They don't interact like people. I spend more time with my dogs in my free time than I do with any other living being. But I don't expect them to meet my emotional needs. I don't expect them to behave like little furry children.
> 
> Andy didn't sound cold. He ended his post with "They are magnificent creatures in their own right. Let's let them be dogs. " That's not cold. That's appreciative of the creatures they are. Not human. Different. Magnificent. Dogs.
> 
> It would be awesome if my 9 yr old with bad hips would act like a 9 yr old with bad hips instead of a 2 yr old instigating trouble and then hurting herself. But..they aren't human so I can't sit her down and explain it to her.


Thanks Jax. you probably said it better than I did.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Yes, but sometimes, especially with smart breeds of dogs it is easy to forget that they don't think like us, the other day I wanted to watch the news so I asked my son where he put the remote. He said he didn't know so I looked under all the pillows, and blankets my wife keeps on the couch nothing, looked on the table where my kid has a habit of leaving the remote. Walked back into the living room and said" Rosko where is that darn remote " rhetorical just cause he was standing there. He walks over sticks his nose between the cushions and stands there. I walk over reach down and there's the remote. Maybe it was just coincidence I don't know but sometimes they act like they know more than a lot of people think.


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## ttodd27 (Oct 17, 2016)

Jack's Dad said:


> I haven't posted much at all for a couple of years for a variety of reasons. What I did was drop in and read for awhile. Sometimes reading without worrying about responding can give a very differnt picture of what is going on with our dogs and ourselves as their caretakers.
> 
> They are our companions and part of our families and we care for them. Good food, exercise, shelter,medical care etc...
> 
> ...


If dogs aren't people then why does mine have half the DVR filled up? (I keed.) 

I am definitely not trying to build too much dependency in my dog; I've lived with a dog like that, and it isn't fun a lot of times. And I certainly didn't get a dog as a surrogate for anything; I got my dog to give me a hobby I guess you could say. Like the poster below, I've been through some very difficult family issues lately, and after getting myself back into the position to be able to get a dog again, I jumped on it. I didn't plan on getting a GSD, but when I saw her pics and then met her, I knew I could give her a much better home than she had at the moment or was likely to get. It's not always easy, but it's worth every step around the block, every scratch on my body, and every smile on her face. She's just a dog. But she's my dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well we didn't say they couldn't understand us. Our breed has the mental capacity of a 5 yr old. They can have a vocab of hundreds of words and phrases. But they still don't think, process or interact like we do.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Well we didn't say they couldn't understand us. Our breed has the mental capacity of a 5 yr old. They can have a vocab of hundreds of words and phrases. But they still don't think, process or interact like we do.


I have owned and operated a Drywall and paint business for 17 years. During that time I have dealt with a lot of employees. Trust me when I say that dogs can think and process quicker and more efficiently than a lot of humans. Now with Drywall and paint it seems that I get the bottom of the gene pool but still it seems that people are getting dumber and dogs are getting smarter.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well if it sounded cold I really missed the boat. I love my dogs and consider them part of my family. I talk to them and all that stuff. What I don't do is epect them to take care of my needs although they do at times.
> 
> I'm trying to address the extremeism that a lot of folks are going to now.
> 
> We are a separate species with different needs. I want my dogs to enjoy their lives as dogs so I take them where they can exercise freely without worrying about every scratch or some other horrible possibility. Let them run, let them be dogs.


Ok, I agree that there are definitely folks that take things to extremes.I knew a woman that fed her little dog from a spoon while it sat in a high chair.The people who dress them in clothes and push them in strollers.
We show them our affection by making sure they get their physical and mental/emotional needs met.In turn we're getting some of that back from them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> but still it seems that people are getting dumber and dogs are getting smarter.


I concur.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> You may not have meant it that way Dad,but your post just sounded cold.The dogs are just things we own and are fond of.Like a favorite pair of shoes or other object.Instead of companions we have deep emotional ties with.


I agree. I don't baby my dogs but I do have a strong bond with them. There is nothing better than that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dunkirk said:


> Alfred Payson Terhune was an American author, dog breeder, and journalist. I love his books about his collies. He died in 1942. Back then, in his books, dog owners were their dog's master or mistress. Shame our culture can't go back to that terminology.


I just read Lad a dog again, and while I loved the book when I first read it, I can see how people might not get it nowadays. The idea of killing your dogs for the war-effort. Whipping the dog for ruining the Eagle. 

We have progressed. Maybe. 

I wonder what people in 2042 will be saying when they read the books of today. Kind of scary, really. 

The Call of the Wild.
Ole Yeller. 

Loved the old books. Somehow we've turned our dogs into snowflakes. 

Dressing them up, doggy day-care, yorkie-pug-pitsy-poos. Threatening you with animal cruelty because you left the windows down and the back of the vehicle open in 50 degree weather, because it is too cold for the GSD. 

We have a wash&wear dog that will jump in a river in February and not be the worst for it. They will roll in mud and on a dead thing. Some will eat poop. They sniff behinds, and they cuddle on the couch with you. 

They are indeed magnificent creatures. They are critters. I think anthropomorphizing them is a form of disrespect. They aren't quite good enough as dogs, so we try to make them into some form of human. When in reality the dog is an awesome creature, that can be trained to thrive living with humans. Not as equals, as dependents, but taking part in most human functions, and enjoying the company of humans, sometimes working with humans.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Ok, I agree that there are definitely folks that take things to extremes.I knew a woman that fed her little dog from a spoon while it sat in a high chair.The people who dress them in clothes and push them in strollers.
> We show them our affection by making sure they get their physical and mental/emotional needs met.In turn we're getting some of that back from them.


I do agree that all extremes arent good. Cept for beer every so often


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Great post Selzer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I get it. I also have a training partner which happens to be my dog. I dread the day he is no longer able to go with me or the day he leaves me. I almost lost him once and every single day during his struggle I prayed that he would stay to live out a dogs life of old age. 
He isn't my furbaby, he isn't my child, but he is my best bud and reads my every move.
I admire, respect and love him more than I probably should.
I have other dogs, had other dogs pass away, but when Karlo goes, it will be heart-wrenching. The word heartdog does have value and meaning.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

You know maybe Im misinterpreting the previous posts that got my rough up. On some things I do agree on others maybe not so much. One thing I do see is that a dog is mans best friend. A dog is the closest relatable, different species that we can relate to and have a bond with. Yes, there are limits though. 

I apologize if I offended Jacks Dad, Nurse Bishop or anyone else for my pop off post.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs are partners and support to PTSD sufferers and others with 'neurosis' or mental illness, not to mention alerting for medical issues. I am glad they aren't people. They don't judge, they don't leave when the going gets tough. They are loyal. Better than most people could ever wish to be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

All I'm gonna say is..if dog's are people then there are 4 here that need to start taking turns doing the dishes.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> ........ I am glad they aren't people. They don't judge, they don't leave when the going gets tough. They are loyal. Better than most people could ever wish to be.


Thank you.Great point.


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## Jayfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Ok, I agree that there are definitely folks that take things to extremes.I knew a woman that fed her little dog from a spoon while it sat in a high chair.The people who dress them in clothes and push them in strollers.
> We show them our affection by making sure they get their physical and mental/emotional needs met.In turn we're getting some of that back from them.


Once, when we were sitting outside an ice cream shop, there was a woman with a little dog on her lap that was dressed in little doggy clothes and being fed chocolate ice cream from a spoon. Another example of the extreme. There are so many people that think they are doing the best for their dog by treating them like their children, when in fact they are depriving them of being a _dog_.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jayfeather said:


> Once, when we were sitting outside an ice cream shop, there was a woman with a little dog on her lap that was dressed in little doggy clothes and being fed chocolate ice cream from a spoon. Another example of the extreme. There are so many people that think they are doing the best for their dog by treating them like their children, when in fact they are depriving them of being a _dog_.


And because of this dogs are losing their senses that use to be so keen...scent. How many of these furbaby owners do not ever allow their dogs to just smell their world? They keep them in heel position, don't allow them to pull them on a daily walk as the dogs nose wants to lead them. Most breeds that were bred for certain tasks no longer can do what they originally were bred to do because the pet or show world has taken it away.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Shooter said:


> You know maybe Im misinterpreting the previous posts that got my rough up. On some things I do agree on others maybe not so much. One thing I do see is that a dog is mans best friend. A dog is the closest relatable, different species that we can relate to and have a bond with. Yes, there are limits though.
> 
> I apologize if I offended Jacks Dad, Nurse Bishop or anyone else for my pop off post.


No problem. I could have been more clear.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> All I'm gonna say is..if dog's are people then there are 4 here that need to start taking turns doing the dishes.


 I was working at a fellas house once and he offered to feed me and my brother lunch. We said sure free lunch cool. He went to the counter grabbed three plates and we all had ham or pulled pork whatever. I ate all of my food and the homeowner and my brother were still eating. When the homeowner grabbed my plate and sat it on the ground so the dog could lick it clean. Then he sat his ate down for the dog. My brother who was still eating was done pretty quick. I don't know if he washed the plates afterward but he may have had the same thoughts as you and on that day it was the black labs turn to clean dishes.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

.



Jax08 said:


> All I'm gonna say is..if dog's are people then there are 4 here that need to start taking turns doing the dishes.


Im sorry Jax, I cant help myself


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I kinda feel like the sentiment in some of these posts are very offensive for people who have service animals, emotional support animals, or therapy dogs. 

The vet who relies on their PTSD service dog every day to mitigate their disability so they can lead a normal life. 

The elderly widow who's little dog helped her crawl out of and keeps her from falling into depression and social isolation. Who's doctor approves and encourages the use of an ESA.

The little kid battling cancer who is comforted from a hug and cuddle from the therapy dog that visits the hospital.

I believe that dogs and humans evolved together. We are seperate species but clearly linked. Science is just beginning to scratch the surface of what dogs are capable of emotionally and intellectually. They do things in relation to us that no other species can. They understand more than we previously thought. 

There is a reason they are used for therapy, service dogs, and the like - they are **** good at it.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I kinda feel like the sentiment in some of these posts are very offensive for people who have service animals, emotional support animals, or therapy dogs.
> 
> The vet who relies on their PTSD service dog every day to mitigate their disability so they can lead a normal life.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. Sometimes a dog is more than just a dog.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I kinda feel like the sentiment in some of these posts are very offensive for people who have service animals, emotional support animals, or therapy dogs.
> 
> The vet who relies on their PTSD service dog every day to mitigate their disability so they can lead a normal life.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should have jumped in there before me. You made my point. I was posting clearly from a personal perspective (With the hurt of a recently lost GSD). I will tape up my fingers while you post from now on.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Oh for crying out loud, I'm talking about peoples pets, not trained service dogs. As a matter of fact this is a good example. All the so called service dogs that are all over the place in stores and restraunts because people can't stand to be two minutes without their little poopsie.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Shooter said:


> Maybe you should have jumped in there before me. You made my point. I was posting clearly from a personal perspective (With the hurt of a recently lost GSD). I will tape up my fingers while you post from now on.


I was waiting for someone more eloquent than myself. Voodoo is smarter than me.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Shooter said:


> Maybe you should have jumped in there before me. You made my point. I was posting clearly from a personal perspective (With the hurt of a recently lost GSD). I will tape up my fingers while you post from now on.


Trust me. My eloquence is few and far between! So keep posting 

I am very sorry for your loss btw. I lost my shepherd mix over the summer. I know the sting of them just not being there all too well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> I was working at a fellas house once and he offered to feed me and my brother lunch. We said sure free lunch cool. He went to the counter grabbed three plates and we all had ham or pulled pork whatever. I ate all of my food and the homeowner and my brother were still eating. When the homeowner grabbed my plate and sat it on the ground so the dog could lick it clean. Then he sat his ate down for the dog. My brother who was still eating was done pretty quick. I don't know if he washed the plates afterward but he may have had the same thoughts as you and on that day it was the black labs turn to clean dishes.


Ha, we used to always put our plates on the floor for Sneaker to lick before we put them in the dishwasher! Worked just as well as rinsing them first, which never made any sense to me anyway. She had a cast iron stomach and could eat anything.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> I was waiting for someone more eloquent than myself. Voodoo is smarter than me.


Don't feel bad.

Sometimes Mako out smarts me. 

So we are both dumber than a dog


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> I was waiting for someone more eloquent than myself. Voodoo is smarter than me.


Well I think y'all are both plenty smart. I think Jack's Dad and Nurse Bishop are plenty smart.

I'm one of these guys who, when my knowledge is falling short then I just turn up the freaking volume. It's a great management practice. I've seen it used for decades.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> And because of this dogs are losing their senses that use to be so keen...scent. How many of these furbaby owners do not ever allow their dogs to just smell their world? They keep them in heel position, don't allow them to pull them on a daily walk as the dogs nose wants to lead them. Most breeds that were bred for certain tasks no longer can do what they originally were bred to do because the pet or show world has taken it away.


I think these are the worst, the ones who never let their dogs be dogs. Spoon feeding a dog ice cream isn't hurting anything, nor is painting their toe nails pink or putting a tutu on them. But the young, high energy, athletic GSD that is constantly in the house, fenced in, leashed up, ... the ones that don't get to stretch out and run full tilt as nature intended, now those are the dogs that suffer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> I was waiting for someone more eloquent than myself. Voodoo is smarter than me.


Hmmmm!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My friend is disabled with severe epilepsy, he no longer has the ability to communicate verbally. He has a service dog that alerts him to seizures. He has had seizures while out walking, shopping and in restaurants. He really depends on his service dog.

I think some of these service dog comments on here are really harsh.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I personally think it is dishonorable to humanize dogs. They are perfect in being a dogs. How can you compare something so perfetct to a human? I am honored that they want to live us. I am amazed how flexible they are in trying to figure us out and accept so many miscommunication.


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## snakeybird (Dec 9, 2016)

I agree, dogs are not people. Dogs are their own unique species, just as humans are. They certainly don't try to make us be like them, and to me, it is doing dogs a disservice to try to make them into our own image. However, our innate differences do not negate the capacity for a meaningful connection between dogs and people. I believe that most of us on this forum likely have experienced a profound and fulfilling partnership with our dog friends; that's probably why we participate in this online community. 

From my perspective, as we have become more socially isolated from our fellow human beings (for a variety of reasons), our companion animals, often though not exclusively dogs, have taken on emotional roles such as child and best friend that historically were most likely occupied by other people. For someone who returns to a home devoid of other people at the end of a long day, the living being that greets you and is so excited to see you takes on a profoundly emotionally significant role. The capacity for relationship is not dictated by species, but it is important to remember we are different creatures with different needs. Our dogs rely entirely on us to meet their needs, and not assume what we want is what they need.

Just my thoughts.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh for crying out loud, I'm talking about peoples pets, not trained service dogs. As a matter of fact this is a good example. All the so called service dogs that are all over the place in stores and restraunts because people can't stand to be two minutes without their little poopsie.


But in your initial post you didn't specify "people's pets" you said _dogs_ but regardless, now I am curious. Why are you not as appalled by people robbing a service dog of it's sheer dogness? Not being allowed to chase a ball, sniff the good sniffs, bark at a cat, or hoover for tidbits. Because they help people and fill a need that nothing else can?

Therapy and emotional support dogs also fulfill a need that nothing else can. They help people too. By and large simply by being a dog. People rely on them as well as service dogs every single day. 

And for that matter, people rely on their pet dogs too in a lot of ways. 

And that's OK. In the grand scheme of things it's not like dogs are getting the raw end of the deal. They are provided with shelter, food, affection all for performing a few trained tasks or doing what they would instinctively anyways. 

Overall, I agree with you that the ideal should be to let dogs be dogs, not humanizing them, etc. 

But this, I do find truly offensive to the people who have been dealt a bad hand in life and do need to rely on their dogs:



> Many now seem to expect them to be things that they are not. *They are expected to be* surrogate spouses, children, * friends, comforters, counselors and more. Sometimes they fulfill peoples needs but to lean on our dogs to be everything is just too much.
> 
> We should work on our own problems and let them be dogs.* I'm also afraid this dependence on them will cause neurosis, reactivity and other problems for them.


This is what bothers me. You expect people to work on their own problems, but what if using a dog is the best way for them TO work on their 'problems' though? 

I can't wrap my head around the idea of a pet dog not being a friend. It goes against the very definition of the words. Friend is a synonym for companion. A pet is an animal kept for companionship...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I consider my dogs family. Most of the time I'd rather be with them then people. They love me no matter what and just watching them be dogs gives me a very calm feeling. I love observing them and learning their body language. All of them have obedience training, but it's not a robotic kind of thing. I don't make them heel on walks or hikes, I let them enjoy everything. As long as they come when called and wait when I need them to wait, everything is good. They are well mannered and that is all I expect. Every now and then they dig, they go in the fire pit and take out every piece of wood or twigs I put in there, they move furniture to get their ball, or bring sticks in the house and I take a picture and smile. They are enjoying themselves and being dogs, I don't ever take that away from them, it's amazing to watch them being dogs.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

To me dogs are the closest you get to a "human-like" relationship when it comes to domesticated animals (I haven't owned a cat though). I had a bond with my horses, especially the ones I competed with, but it never compared to my bond with my dogs. I do like my dog better than most people. There's something about being fully responsible for the life of another living being that gives the relationship a parental feel, so yes, I will tell our dog to find his "dad" when I want him to go to my husband. 

That said I would never equate a dog's life with a human life - for instance the loss of a dog, however sad, obviously does not compare to the loss of a child. In the same vein, I don't understand people who give their dog precedence over human guests. If someone comes to my house and is afraid of dogs, the dog will be crated or put out of sight. I've heard people say "it's the dog's house," but to me, it's my house that the dog lives in. Of course the human's feelings will be put first.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

some people are taking this too serious and getting offended, and i don't think the OP said anything wrong
your dog is part of your family, and you will take care of him/her
at the same time, since the dog is a different species, its needs, diet, way of communication will differ and i won't impose my human standards on my dog
at least that's the philosophy that i try to practice

if you love your dog, and the dog is happy, then that's the end of the story, i think


now the topic of importance of a human life compared to a animal's life, that's a different conversation and it has something to do with the human's needs not being met to satisfaction in society


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh for crying out loud, I'm talking about peoples pets, not trained service dogs. As a matter of fact this is a good example. All the so called service dogs that are all over the place in stores and restraunts because people can't stand to be two minutes without their little poopsie.


If you are talking about fake service dogs then I basically agree....but as someone who does depend on a service dog I hope you werent referring to actual teams. 

I rely on my dogs a lot. I train them to do what I need them to do progressive and systematic way just like you teach a dog anything else. There are hardly words for what a gift it is to be partnered with a dog who does their job well, enjoys doing it, and therefore gives their handler independance they didn't have before. My dogs arent superhuman, they have been carefully trained to do what they do and rewarded with toys, food, and praise. 

Later I would go so far as to say it is self rewarding for a dog to do a task because I have no doubtthat they know that what they did reduced the handler's stress level, made the handler happy, ect. That is amazing

I don't know of another species that seems to desire human companionship like dogs, or who is so in tune and able to live with us and fighre out what we want. I think of those wolf studies...faced with a problem, the dog looks to the human's face, the wolf just destroys the puzzle.

They are different, they are special. I do consider my dogs family. I try not to be dysfunctional with them or deprive them of what they are or force them into being something they arw not.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I watched a video of a German Shepherd with a pacifier in his mouth while he lay on the couch. A gal was patting his head and making suschy sounds. I suspect the pacifier was popped into his mouth so that she could take a cute video and she stroked his head to encourage him holding the "paci". But he really didn't look like he was enjoying it and in the end he left the couch. And yet the comments were things like, "oh, what a good owner". That doesn't show a good owner, that shows someone wanting a viral video. Granted the dog is fine and the owner may be wonderful, but it looked to me like that dog did not want to play big baby for her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

car2ner said:


> I watched a video of a German Shepherd with a pacifier in his mouth while he lay on the couch. A gal was patting his head and making suschy sounds. I suspect the pacifier was popped into his mouth so that she could take a cute video and she stroked his head to encourage him holding the "paci". But he really didn't look like he was enjoying it and in the end he left the couch. And yet the comments were things like, "oh, what a good owner". That doesn't show a good owner, that shows someone wanting a viral video. Granted the dog is fine and the owner may be wonderful, but it looked to me like that dog did not want to play big baby for her.


A girl local to me breeds her GSD's and put pacifiers in the puppies mouth for photo's. She is having a hard time selling her pups(she doesn't train or represent herself anywhere in the dog world, just breeds). 
I told her to not use those photo's to sell her pups. She thought it was cute, I thought it was disrespectful to this breed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cloudpump said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Sometimes a dog is more than just a dog.



Then you all are missing the point. It's not that a dog is "more" than just a dog. It's that a dog IS a dog. Not more. Not less. If you think anyone here said they are less than human, then you are attaching an importance of human status to the posts that aren't there (at least in most of the posts). 

The dog is not JUST a hairy human and people should not expect a dog to act like a human. It's disrespectful to the dog. Respect, Admire, Love the species they are. Don't try to make them into something they aren't and make them less.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> I personally think it is dishonorable to humanize dogs. They are perfect in being a dogs. How can you compare something so perfetct to a human? I am honored that they want to live us. I am amazed how flexible they are in trying to figure us out and accept so many miscommunication.



There! This!!! Right here!!!!

And welcome back @Jack's Dad. :rofl: Same ole Same ole!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Then you all are missing the point. It's not that a dog is "more" than just a dog. It's that a dog IS a dog. Not more. Not less. If you think anyone here said they are less than human, then you are attaching an importance of human status to the posts that aren't there (at least in most of the posts).
> 
> The dog is not JUST a hairy human and people should not expect a dog to act like a human. It's disrespectful to the dog. Respect, Admire, Love the species they are. Don't try to make them into something they aren't and make them less.


I didn't mean it as a dog is just a furry human. I just ment that a dog would have more of a job than just to be a dog. Such as emotional support for someone with PTSD, working as a guide for blind, etc. It was what I inferred from the original post. There are many facets of what a dog could be asked to do that aren't just running in the woods.
I do disagree with furbaby foofoo owners, and owners that value a dog over a human. 
Unfortunately, there's the issue of people who don't do that, but their dogs are never off a leash. That has not been addressed either. Or the owners that place so many rules on a dog that the dog is flat and overtrained.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who said anything about dogs not having jobs? They have been bred for thousands of years to work as a partner with us in many different aspects. A dog can have a job suitable to that dog's drives and talents and still be a dog. Neither myself or Andy said otherwise.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Who said anything about dogs not having jobs? They have been bred for thousands of years to work as a partner with us in many different aspects. A dog can have a job suitable to that dog's drives and talents and still be a dog. Neither myself or Andy said otherwise.


"Many now seem to expect them to be things that they are not. They are expected to be surrogate spouses, children, friends, comforters, counselors and more. Sometimes they fulfill peoples needs but to lean on our dogs to be everything is just too much.

We should work on our own problems and let them be dogs. I'm also afraid this dependence on them will cause neurosis, reactivity and other problems for them."

That is what I inferred from the original post. Maybe my understanding was different. Oh well.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

That is how I understood it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Who said anything about dogs not having jobs? They have been bred for thousands of years to work as a partner with us in many different aspects. A dog can have a job suitable to that dog's drives and talents and still be a dog. Neither myself or Andy said otherwise.


The OP said 



> Many now seem to expect them to be things that they are not. They are expected to be surrogate spouses, children, friends, comforters, counselors and more. Sometimes they fulfill peoples needs but to lean on our dogs to be everything is just too much.
> 
> We should work on our own problems and let them be dogs.


Which came off to myself, and a few others, as insensitive to those people who rely on their dogs daily. 

Let's face it, many service dogs don't get the chance to just be dogs. 

The insinuation is that those who need to use them are wrong in doing so. That they need to work on their 'problems' them selves. 

Or that people are in the wrong for relying on an ESA for their mental health. 

It may or may not have been the intent of the OP. But from the strong wording - that is what I got from it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. What you are arguing about was not the original intent of Andy's post and he's plainly stated that.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Yeahh, it's kinda weird when it seems people are still trying to get the microscope out to see if they should be offended. That's trying too hard. 

Since there was no slur intended, I can blithely address the spirit of the OP. Dogs are amazing animals that are versatile, intelligent, and wonderful companions. Thank goodness they aren't burdened with a human's ego and can just be a dog. Why would you want to humanize them? Wouldn't that be a backward step for them? /joking *grin*


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Meaty morning coffee reading. Very much enjoyed reading everyone's perspective--reading people disagreeing, yet can't find the disagreement?
Everyone's more or less on the same page, even if you don't know it--at least from my armchair.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. What you are arguing about was not the original intent of Andy's post and he's plainly stated that.


I'm afraid I do not agree that the intent had been plainly stated. Merely because no comment had been made by the OP on situations where pets, not trained service animals, are relied on for the health of their masters. It really doesn't matter to me whether it becomes clarified or not, because intent does not change the power or infliction of one's words.

While I agree with much of what has been said in this thread, I still find certain statements show an incredible amount of insensitivity.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:shrug:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Voodoolamb. It's clear to me you want to fight and will never accept an explanation that will satisfy you or your buddy.
I'm not an insensitive person regardless of what you may think.
I choose not to fall into one of the pit bull type threads acouple of you are so fond of.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> Voodoolamb. It's clear to me you want to fight and will never accept an explanation that will satisfy you or your buddy.
> I'm not an insensitive person regardless of what you may think.
> I choose not to fall into one of the pit bull type threads acouple of you are so fond of.


Nahhh. No fighting here. Just a friendly disagreement.

And not saying you are insensitive, I don't know you and wouldn't be able to come to that determination. I just found the way some of this post has been worded to be so. There is a difference. 

I have no clue what pit bulls have to do with anything though. I am quite fond of them though!

May I suggest a burrying of the hatchet?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Depends on where you want to bury it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax. Thanks for the welcome back. I had another thread in mind but I'm almost afraid to. Don't want to irritate and confuse. Seems to be one of my gifts. I guess it's what I bring to the board.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> Depends on where you want to bury it.


I meant it as a let's just agree to disagree and refer to each other in a polite and friendly way.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

voodoolamb said:


> I meant it as a let's just agree to disagree and refer to each other in a polite and friendly way.


Sounds good to me.:smile2:


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## Suki's Mom (Nov 24, 2008)

I agree that we have dogs, not furry "children". However, we will tell them to "go see dad", or "go see mom - mom fix" (used when Suki needs an ear cleaned). I'd rather be "mom" than "the mistress" any day.


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## shakariah (May 5, 2016)

I bet the dog each person owns would not quibble over this. That which is if importance or necessity to one is not the same for all. So whose to say what is right, to each person it is what they deem. Stores do it to be cutesy to the masses, if you don't understand that take an economics class.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I almost feel that this a continuation of part of another thread where this was discussed. I think each person has a unique and different relationship with their pups. I obviously, look ay my user name, refer to myself as the Mom to my dogs. I don't know how far I go on that path, So I guess we all see this in our own way.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh for crying out loud, I'm talking about peoples pets, not trained service dogs. As a matter of fact this is a good example. All the so called service dogs that are all over the place in stores and restraunts because people can't stand to be two minutes without their little poopsie.


 Really! I have seen a guy with his therapy or whatever dog at the grocery store looking at the bologna while down below the dog was licking the bacon. I have seen people wheeling "poopsie" around in a grocery cart while it's anus was pressed against the bottom of the cart where people put their food that goes into their refrigerator. In Portland dogs have been killed on the bus by people's fake therapy pit bulls. Anyone can get a vest off the internet.

Dogs are dogs, they are not people. Thats why I like dogs and all animals- they are not people!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Dogs are dogs, they are not people. Thats why I like dogs and all animals- they are not people!


Right!!! I am fascinated with the way dogs think. With the body language and interactions. How they problem solve. Their every day joy at something simple.

We have these beautiful, majestic, creatures with pure souls and we try to turn them into humans. 

I just don't get it.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Suki's Mom said:


> I agree that we have dogs, not furry "children". However, we will tell them to "go see dad", or "go see mom - mom fix" (used when Suki needs an ear cleaned). I'd rather be "mom" than "the mistress" any day.


I am not my dog's mom, my hubby is not their dad BUT for the sake of convenience we use the terms Mom and Dad for others. At home we use our first names, especially since they are each one syllable. I wanted to find nice stickers for our cars to show that we had dogs in the car. Good luck finding "German Shepherd Dog Master". It is much easier to find (and read from a distance) "German Shepherd Dad".

I got to say, most of us agree on most everything. Some of it is just the misunderstanding of text (I remember starting a light hearted thread that took off in a way I never expected)
Is there a record at how long a thread grows in two days? Would this one come close?:wink2:



> Right!!! I am fascinated with the way dogs think. With the body language and interactions. How they problem solve. Their every day joy at something simple.
> 
> We have these beautiful, majestic, creatures with pure souls and we try to turn them into humans.
> 
> I just don't get it.


darn, I let them get up on the leather love seat and yet they want to lay under my desk at my feet or against the door where a slight cool breeze sneaks through underneath. If a human did that I think, heck I'd know, they were a bit off. Dogs are dogs and should be allowed to do doggy things as much as our situation allows.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

car2ner said:


> Dogs are dogs and should be allowed to do doggy things as much as our situation allows.


Like turn every square inch of snow in my yard yellow. Good night. I never knew how much 4 dogs could pee.


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## Suki's Mom (Nov 24, 2008)

car2ner said:


> I am not my dog's mom, my hubby is not their dad BUT for the sake of convenience we use the terms Mom and Dad for others. At home we use our first names, especially since they are each one syllable.


Both our names have two syllables and don't roll off the tongue as easily as Mom and Dad does :grin2: .


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I once met a true Service Dog from my work at the hospital. A patient was put into the ICU who was blind and had tried to kill himself. I asked the police was there a dog in his apartment. They said yes it had been taken to the pound. This was a 3 day kill shelter. After work I went there and got the big male GSD fostered to me until the patient could take him back. Taking him home, I fully expected to see an awesome trained guide dog for the blind. He was astonishing how ill mannered he was! He counter surfed, did not obey at all, got into the garbage, chewed things, you name it. Then, the patient was transferred to a mental hospital because of his suicide attempt. I called and the hospital said please bring the dog. I took him up the elevator. There he was jumping around and barking like a nut. As soon as the dog saw his master, he changed. With dignity and grace he walked to the man's side as he sat in a chair, the man reaching out to feel his fur and smiling . Then the dog sat quietly and aloofly and awaited his command. He before my eyes became everything I had hoped he would be. And I was crying.

Did this dog just need a break from his work to just be a dog, to eat garbage and roll in poop? Probably.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Hey Car2Ner. I think the bumper sticker you want is the one that says The Key is Under the German Shepherd.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Hey Car2Ner. I think the bumper sticker you want is the one that says The Key is Under the German Shepherd.


OMG, that is a good one! :grin2:


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## snakeybird (Dec 9, 2016)

LOL, does that bumper sticker exist?


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

You know, I believe that God sometimes puts the correct dog with a specific job in some souls life as needed at the time.

Case in point. (Im sorry this one kills me)


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I love watching these threads devolve into their inevitable final state--usually silly.
Kinda like watching a bunch of dogs having a spat and then spinning off into play bows and a rowdy game of keep-away.
I made granola for my dog today:
1 part cheerios
1 part shreddies
1 part dry cat kibble
1 part dried liver
1 part soft on the inside cat special kitty treats
It sits on the kitchen counter in a mason jar--looks delicious... I'll be in for a big surprise if I grab the wrong jar in the morning.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The problem with humanizing dogs is it makes it easier for the ARistas and naive do gooders to pass laws to make themselves feel better or to make it more difficult for people to own or work dogs. 32 degrees out, human is cold so all dogs must be inside. Never mind that the northern breeds are just becoming comfortable or that Pyrenees is guarding the sheep. 90 degrees outside, some human is miserable so all dogs must be in AC. Never mind that not even all humans have AC and many MWD or detection dogs have to work in the extreme heat at times and being acclimated is best for them. For many that rely on dogs to protect their livestock, to search for bombs and drugs, to help them safely negotiate the streets or to help catch the bad guy, dogs are tools. They are much loved and revered tools, but still they are in service to man, working for man. To humanize them degrades what makes them a special species that brings so much to the symbiotic relationship they have had with man for so many eons. 

Hope that makes sense. Too many thoughts crammed into one short comment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gee whiz! 

I think the owners of service dogs are probably more clear than the average that their service animal is a dog. For many of them, a human could not do the job the dog does -- alerting to seizures, low blood sugar, cardiac condition, etc. 

And even if a human could do the job, most humans do not WANT to be that dependent on other humans all the time. The dog guides them, the dog helps stabilize them, the dog can pull them out of situation during a panic attack/PTSD attack. 

But in all of these as well as those jobs dogs do for us, like herding, military, police, therapy, SAR, they are all using talents and instincts the canine has. The dog is doing a job a dog can be trained to do because he is gifted with abilities that can make these things natural for him. These are NOT humanizing a dog. 

Which leaves the Emotional Support Animals. These can be good or bad. I am guessing that most of us have seen some dark places in our lives. Maybe we have talked to the nice doctor and got meds. Maybe we have gone through a temporary private ****. Maybe we have had impediments to normal social interactions. It is actually more normal than most people think. Life just is a series of ups and downs, and their is no fair distributions or equality in the number or duration of ups and downs. 

And so many of us can remember our dogs as the one that was with us through some bad times. The one that brought us through it. The one that made us get out of bed (Babsy does this every day at 7:30 whether we went to bed at 2:30 or 5:30. Ah, well....) The one that made life worth living through that period. Dogs are amazing creatures, and they DO know things. They know when we are sad. They can comfort. 

For people with mental or emotional problems there are many therapies available. Some work for some people and not for others. Some therapists want you to re-connect with your inner child, draw, color, all that stuff, and that can be helpful, I guess, but if you are spending more and more time with your coloring books and withdrawing further from actively participating in the world, than the therapy is doing harm rather than good. And this is where dogs can be harmful. 

When dogs give us the emotional support to get up and get going, to get out into the world and interact with the world, than it is a good thing. 

When we rely more and more heavily on the dog and and let human relationships fall apart, and stop trying to be connect with humans because all we care about is the dog, then it has become ineffective and perhaps negative. 

I am not against service animals at all. My sister's kid has CP. She is riding horses now. She is much more animal oriented than her sister. But this animal is helping her physically. And yes, perhaps she could get those same muscles stretched and worked through some form of physical therapy, but there is something about the act of riding a horse that makes doing that work easier. 

Nothing wrong with service animals. I did not read it in Andy's OP, that that was where this was going. I think it was more people allowing a critter to take up so much of their lives that they stop living in other areas, and pour more and more of the expectations and needs onto a four-legged critter with a very finite lifespan. Kind of hard on the dog, really. And when it passes, it is that much more devastating for the human.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

The Key is Under the German Shepherd.



snakeybird said:


> LOL, does that bumper sticker exist?


Yes but I have seen it only as a small sticker that is put on the side rear window.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I do not think of myself as my dogs' parent, although we do refer to ourselves as "mommy" and "daddy" (hmmm...). I think of my dogs as my companions and friends. I love that they are dogs and not people


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shooter said:


> You know, I believe that God sometimes puts the correct dog with a specific job in some souls life as needed at the time.
> 
> Case in point. (Im sorry this one kills me)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9VSegNvtkg


Oh man, I can't watch stuff like that while I am at work!

Good video, and yes, this dog drew the boy out of himself, and into the world. Awesome! Human siblings couldn't do it, nor his parents. The dog, by being a dog, was able to work some magic in the boy. Great story.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Jax. Thanks for the welcome back. I had another thread in mind but I'm almost afraid to. Don't want to irritate and confuse. Seems to be one of my gifts. I guess it's what I bring to the board.


 Yes, sometimes things here on the forum get crazy (ie: nasty). I tire of it, do not participate in it, and sometimes just scroll past a potentially interesting thread because a couple posters begin arguing ( you know who you are). But post away! I like to read everyone's thoughts!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Just chiming in to say, "I agree with Andy 100%." I always agree with Andy. 'Dogs Aren't People' - except Natty Boh. Natty Boh IS a people. He is a nasty, snarky, neurotic people, but he really is very human-like.

Now, if y'all will excuse me, Ima go put some butterfly wings on Natty Boh. It be dress up time for my baby boy. lol!


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I consider my dogs family. Most of the time I'd rather be with them then people. They love me no matter what and just watching them be dogs gives me a very calm feeling. I love observing them and learning their body language. All of them have obedience training, but it's not a robotic kind of thing. I don't make them heel on walks or hikes, I let them enjoy everything. As long as they come when called and wait when I need them to wait, everything is good. They are well mannered and that is all I expect. Every now and then they dig, they go in the fire pit and take out every piece of wood or twigs I put in there, they move furniture to get their ball, or bring sticks in the house and I take a picture and smile. They are enjoying themselves and being dogs, I don't ever take that away from them, it's amazing to watch them being dogs.


llombardo, I love That! Right on the mark for the way I view my dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Lisa and Selzer. You are both more eloquent and covered the topic better than I did.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Don't put wings on the boy. Lol. 
One time my wife's toy poodle came back from the groomers with bows on his ears. I removed them promptly when I got home from work. She said what are you doing they're pretty. I said he is a boy he doesn't wear bows. Dogs aren't people. Therefore they don't have gender identity issues.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Like it or not, you treat your dog like you treat your kid in one way or another. You might not even realize it but you do. 
Helping your kids with their homework=Training your dog
Playing basketball with your son=Taking your dog on a run
Taking your kids to school=Taking your dog to doggy daycare


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Just chiming in to say, "I agree with Andy 100%." I always agree with Andy. 'Dogs Aren't People' - except Natty Boh. Natty Boh IS a people. He is a nasty, snarky, neurotic people, but he really is very human-like.
> 
> Now, if y'all will excuse me, Ima go put some butterfly wings on Natty Boh. It be dress up time for my baby boy. lol!


Yesterday morning, I was telling Milla to hang on, and I would get there, and I referred to her for some reason as "some people." I stopped myself, and looked at her, and said, "and yes, you are a people." 

Dogs aren't people, like humans. But they have personalities that make them unique, and some of them are half-human like my Arwen, and Babsy, the little werewolf, and so many others. They are individuals. They know things, they communicate. I swear Babs can talk with her eyeballs. Funny but she had a litter 8 years ago, and the male in that litter was named Bubba by his owner, an 80 year old fellow that had the dog trained to be his service dog. He told me a year or so later, "That dog can talk." And I knew exactly what he meant. 

I got to say I can understand how the slippage occurs, when people start blurring the lines between dogs and humans. It's pretty easy to do. I think it can be disrespectful, limiting, and even dangerous to do in its extreme. Dogs like to be babied, and it's not always terrible. Balance. We have to maintain a healthy respect for the dog as a dog, and love them to pieces.


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Don't put wings on the boy. Lol.
> One time my wife's toy poodle came back from the groomers with bows on his ears. I removed them promptly when I got home from work. She said what are you doing they're pretty. I said he is a boy he doesn't wear bows. Dogs aren't people. Therefore they don't have gender identity issues.




And absolutely No FuFu juice!


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I don't think that the OP really meant anything about service dogs when he posted. They have jobs and are wonderful at them! Like K9s who have jobs, but then (some) get to go home and be with their handler and their families. They are not on duty all the time. As for personal pets, I agree that some people do that too much. Myself included! I will admit that. They can be an emotional support, but when my husband is home from being away, he gets my attention, not the dog. I say good morning or show affection to him first and my guy has to wait. I work for a dentist, and I had a woman come in and ask if she could bring her dog in with her because IT( yes the dog) couldn't stand to be alone. That she has to give it meds to calm down while she's gone because she howls and shakes and can't stand to be away from her. She also told me that she tells the dog, "Don't worry, baby, Mama will be right back." She also told me that the dog sleeps on the pillow beside her and is always on her lap. She cried when I told her no she couldn't bring the dog to the appointment. THAT is way too much. The dog is not a therapy dog, it is a pet.

Myself, yes I rely on him when my husband is away, and I really shouldn't, but I do not go home and rant and rave to my dog about my work day as if he could understand me. I'm not that reliant haha.  I go home, take him for a walk, do training and then he is INVITED to lay on the bed with me until I'm ready to go to bed and then he goes in his crate. Even when my husband is away. I don't agree with dressing a dog up (unless for a Christmas picture or Halloween or birthday) just because you want people to think it's cute. I don't think you should expect your dog to fix all your problems by just being there. Sure, they offer comfort, and yeah I've hugged my dog tight when I've come home from a very bad day and will feel better, but rare and far between. I suck it up and keep on going. My husband and I have a fight (as all couples will) I take Ronin for a walk to clear my head, I let him sniff and do his thing and I think. When I get home and am calmer, I take Ronin off his leash and go to talk to my husband and forget about Ronin until we sort it out.

I don't think the OP was being offensive. Just stating that pets are pets, not humans that can talk back to us when we talk to them, but they are intelligent and with the right guidance and rules they are wonderful members of your family, but they should not be put above a spouse or child because of how much you love them. When my boy passes away, I will be devastated, but it would not cause the same kind of grief or upset that I would feel should anything ever happen to my husband. Jack's Dad I hope I've understood correctly what you meant. If not feel free to correct me!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Julian G said:


> Like it or not, you treat your dog like you treat your kid in one way or another. You might not even realize it but you do.
> Helping your kids with their homework=Training your dog
> Playing basketball with your son=Taking your dog on a run
> Taking your kids to school=Taking your dog to doggy daycare


Nope. 

Helping your kids with their homework = teaching them to think for themselves. 

Training your dog = teaching your dog to follow commands in a manner that you want them performed.

Yes, you can spend quality time with your kid, and spend quality time with your pet, playing, exercising, etc. By this argument feeding your dog is humanizing your dog. You feed your kid, you feed your dog. See, you are humanizing your dog. 

And lastly, taking your kid to school, taking the dog to day care. Personally, I agree with you on that one. Dogs should not go to day care. They are not designed to require playing with other dogs, sharing their toys, and learning leadership skills, and how to obey authority figures, and how to color within the lines, while their parents(owners) are not present. Why? Because they are never going to grow up, get a job, move out, and support themselves. You will always be responsible for your dog for the rest of his life. A dog is comfortable within his own pack/family. There is nothing natural about constantly changing packs. Doggy Day care on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and dog park on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Friday, dog class on Saturday. That kind of crap might be great for developing the self-starter, teamwork, confidence a kid might need, but I don't think it is helpful at all for dogs, and for some dogs it is damaging.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

selzer said:


> Nope.
> 
> Helping your kids with their homework = teaching them to think for themselves.
> 
> ...


YES!!! Totally agree. :grin2:


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Plus if I put an e-collar on my kid I go to jail. Or prong or choke


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> Plus if I put an e-collar on my kid I go to jail. Or prong or choke


You can't even put them in a crate. 

And some kids probably belong in a crate more than dogs do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

maxtmill said:


> Yes, sometimes things here on the forum get crazy (ie: nasty). I tire of it, do not participate in it, and sometimes just scroll past a potentially interesting thread because a couple posters begin arguing ( you know who you are). But post away! I like to read everyone's thoughts!


I concur with there seems to be the same handful of people with something crazy (ie, nasty) to say, but I am not so sure that they know it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> I said he is a boy he doesn't wear bows. .


Not because he is a boy, but because he is a dog. :grin2:


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

What about being grandma's dog? I get a tick for number 5, 6, and 14. My daughter sent me this: 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/elainawahl/grandmas-dog?utm_term=.lr32202pPj#.htKNNbNeK3


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Dunkirk said:


> What about being grandma's dog? I get a tick for number 5, 6, and 14. My daughter sent me this:
> 
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/elainawahl/grandmas-dog?utm_term=.lr32202pPj#.htKNNbNeK3


Really funny but some probably won't think so. Perfect for the topic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Grandma's dogs, it should be a crime when a dog resembles a seal.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

At first glance, it might seem that I am one of those people who are maybe a little too fond of their dog. OK, maybe even at second glance. After all, I dress Newlie in a Batman costume on Halloween. I talk to him quite a bit and give him a voice so that he can talk back to me and, yes, sometimes he calls me Mom. I have never used the term fur-baby, though, so I think I should get some credit for that. (I know some good people who do, but it just sets my teeth on edge.) But you know what? Newlie doesn't care if he's in a costume. If he did, I wouldn't put it on him. I work full-time, have a close family and good friends, but when I am home alone, Newlie is good company for me. Maybe I am his job. So, who is that hurting?


I do think there are people who are so doting that they indulge their dogs beyond reason and set no boundaries for them. Dogs are not the same as children, but they have many of the same needs, and to say they don't is just as silly as to say there are no differences between the two. Dogs need food, water shelter and at least basic medical care as do children. They need to feel cared for, protected even from themselves and given guidance, as do children. They need praise and affirmation when they make the right choices and given limits and consequences when they make the wrong choices, as do children. If they are not given these things, the odds are good that you are going to end up with a brat, be it canine or human. Despite my love for Newlie and my silliness with him, he is in no doubt as to what I like and what I won't tolerate. 

I would never keep a dog who seriously bit another person without provocation or some overiding mitigating factor. If something like that happened, I would arrange for Newlie to be put to sleep and he would die in my arms. I would be devastated and heartbroken, but humans have to come first in my book. I am always a little amazed when I read posts from people about their dogs that have bitten seriously maybe two or three times and they are still dithering about what to do. The right thing thing is almost always the hardest thing.

I have read an article or two from people who talk about anthropromorizing and carry it to such extremes that they maintain that animals have no feelings at all. Really? They can't feel happy or sad, they can't be angry. they can't he depressed or jealous? Baloney. No, I don't think animals are capable of more complex emotions like guilt but to maintain they have no feelings is just the opposite extreme.

To me, it is about balance and keeping your priorities straight. The rest is unimportant.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Interesting thread. I rescued for years. Saw way to many dogs who craved contact and being included in every thing. 
I worked with a dog for a partner. In a high risk job. Relied on my four legged partner to keep me safe and get me home. Those dogs were glued to me 24/7. 
Shadow has been with me almost since birth. And with no mother she recognizes but me I would be hard pressed to say I dont treat her a bit like a child. I call her a nurture experiment. Lol.
In all fairness to me I am a mother so a crying infant of any species provokes a certain response from me.
In all fairness to the dogs I do not dress or paint them. They do not have jewellery. I do not schedule play dates. Or partake in therapy sessions. 
There are lines I will cross and others I would not. 

A parent establishes rules and boundaries. Provides food and shelter. Loves and cares for. Nourishes body mind and spirit. And allows and encourages growth. 
Nope they are not human. But I will be mom happily and without hesitation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> A parent establishes rules and boundaries. Provides food and shelter. Loves and cares for. Nourishes body mind and spirit. And allows and encourages growth.
> Nope they are not human. But I will be mom happily and without hesitation.


I would say a good dog owner does this for their dogs as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)




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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Love it!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Your dog doesn't care what you call him, baby poopsie cutey pie, whatever, and doesn't care if you make him wear pink sparkly ribbons as long as they don't pinch, poke or shed sparkles into his eyeballs. He doesn't care if you call yourself Master, Pack Leader, Team Mate, Mom, Dad, Grand Papa, Friend, etc... Really, seriously. None of this matters.
A dog needs food and shelter, safety, exercise, and drive satisfaction. A gsd (and similar breeds) need to run and chase and bite and tug and explore their world with all their senses. Getting that job done is probably what folks mean by 'a dog is not a person'--keeping your dogs unique needs in mind. From what I'm reading, EVERYONE on this board knows that, which makes me wonder how IS this turning into such a lengthy discussion that includes disagreements (which seems to be based on semantics).
I, for one, WILL be dressing my dog in spangly Christmas ribbons, because, guess what, HE'S A DOG and therefore doesn't get a vote, so, NO, his friends on facebook won't be making fun of him, because HE DOES NOT ACTUALLY HAVE FRIENDS ON FACEBOOK. And he's not going 'feel less like a man' because he's dressed funny, or be mortified that his masculine reputation has been shredded, or worry that someday, when he runs for Prime Ministers Office (I'm Canadian, eh?) so that he can end all leash laws & legislate all humans to own a breeding pair of bunnies to run free in their yards for every dogs delight, this mortifying photo of him dressed in an ugly Christmas Sweater will come back to haunt him.
Nope, because what he really loves doing is run through the bush, sleep on the couch, eat, do weird stuff (like tricks & agility) to get treats and chase fake prey, hang out with his people, etc. etc. etc. BECAUSE he's a dog.
No confusion, my sweet little baby dog, no confusion at all. He's a dog, an adult animal, that I am fully responsible for because he is stuck in MY world, but I will do my best to give him as much autonomy as I deem reasonably safe for him & other critters.
Hopefully, have not offended anyone in my ramble.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

islanddog said:


> your dog doesn't care what you call him, baby poopsie cutey pie, whatever, and doesn't care if you make him wear pink sparkly ribbons as long as they don't pinch, poke or shed sparkles into his eyeballs. He doesn't care if you call yourself master, pack leader, team mate, mom, dad, grand papa, friend, etc... Really, seriously. None of this matters.
> A dog needs food and shelter, safety, exercise, and drive satisfaction. A gsd (and similar breeds) need to run and chase and bite and tug and explore their world with all their senses. Getting that job done is probably what folks mean by 'a dog is not a person'--keeping your dogs unique needs in mind. From what i'm reading, everyone on this board knows that, which makes me wonder how is this turning into such a lengthy discussion that includes disagreements (which seems to be based on semantics).
> I, for one, will be dressing my dog in spangly christmas ribbons, because, guess what, he's a dog and therefore doesn't get a vote, so, no, his friends on facebook won't be making fun of him, because he does not actually have friends on facebook. And he's not going 'feel less like a man' because he's dressed funny, or be mortified that his masculine reputation has been shredded, or worry that someday, when he runs for prime ministers office (i'm canadian, eh?) so that he can end all leash laws & legislate all humans to own a breeding pair of bunnies to run free in their yards for every dogs delight, this mortifying photo of him dressed in an ugly christmas sweater will come back to haunt him.
> Nope, because what he really loves doing is run through the bush, sleep on the couch, eat, do weird stuff (like tricks & agility) to get treats and chase fake prey, hang out with his people, etc. Etc. Etc. Because he's a dog.
> ...


lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

islanddog said:


> *A dog needs food and shelter, safety, exercise, and drive satisfaction.* A gsd (and similar breeds) need to run and chase and bite and tug and explore their world with all their senses. Getting that job done is probably what folks mean by 'a dog is not a person'--keeping your dogs unique needs in mind.
> 
> :thumbup: Especially the bolded.
> 
> From what I'm reading, EVERYONE on this board knows that, which makes me wonder how IS this turning into such a lengthy discussion that includes disagreements (which seems to be based on semantics).


From what I read on this board, there are plenty that don't know what their dog's needs are, or maybe they just don't care what their dog's needs are. 

I think many feel the intention of the thread was more than a dog is not a human, but some comments got lost along the way. Perhaps that is why the thread got so heated.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I get Andy's point. Dogs are dogs. To me, we do a disservice to them when we humanize them. They aren't people. They don't think like people. They don't interact like people. I spend more time with my dogs in my free time than I do with any other living being. But I don't expect them to meet my emotional needs. I don't expect them to behave like little furry children.
> 
> Andy didn't sound cold. He ended his post with "They are magnificent creatures in their own right. Let's let them be dogs. " That's not cold. That's appreciative of the creatures they are. Not human. Different. Magnificent. Dogs.
> 
> It would be awesome if my 9 yr old with bad hips would act like a 9 yr old with bad hips instead of a 2 yr old instigating trouble and then hurting herself. But..they aren't human so I can't sit her down and explain it to her.


I've gotten this far and think I agree.

My dog is part of my family. She's been spoiled in the sense that she has a lot of stuff and gets a lot of time and attention. She's not spoiled in the sense that she is not humanized and there are clear boundaries and expectations set for her. We've had rules for her since Day One, and they aren't the same as how we'd treat a child, because she isn't a child and doesn't process information in the same way or have the same instincts or behaviors or needs.

I haven't opened up about this but I may find myself single soon. I do feel I need my dog during this process, and luckily my husband agrees and is making it a priority to help keep the dog and me together. But she isn't going to be my counselor or surrogate spouse or my surrogate child. She will be another heartbeat in the house with me and we will keep up the continuity of sport and training. I have a human social network through her, and that will be really important to me to maintain.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

About Facebook, 

Don't ya just hate it when you see a pic of some ancient dog or wounded animal, and it says, "I bet he won't even get 1 LIKE." What the heck??? The dog doesn't give a darn how many people responded to an image of him. People do need to get a grip sometimes.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Honestly, some very thoughtful hashing about is contained within this thread; I have been reading, but
I really don't worry too much about who said what (honestly, don't/can't keep track), and I don't try to read between the lines much either. 
I like to see things from the dogs point of view (it's not just fun, but a real fascinating exercise) and love my dog for just being a dog. I'm lucky enough not to NEED my dog to fulfill very my human needs and have the luxury of enjoying him for just being himself--watching him run & leap and scramble through the bush, or the thrill of taking him from ZERO interest in a toy, to nailing it and shaking it after an especially good run in agility. That's what my dog does for me--vicarious thrills. 
Sometimes I get excited watching squirrels run..... (wow, I guess my boundaries might be a little soft in the other direction).
But yeah, I'm still going to dress him up in something stupid for Christmas and post it on facebook.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

islanddog said:


> Honestly, some very thoughtful hashing about is contained within this thread; I have been reading, but
> I really don't worry too much about who said what (honestly, don't/can't keep track), and I don't try to read between the lines much either.
> I like to see things from the dogs point of view (it's not just fun, but a real fascinating exercise) and love my dog for just being a dog. I'm lucky enough not to NEED my dog to fulfill very my human needs and have the luxury of enjoying him for just being himself--watching him run & leap and scramble through the bush, or the thrill of taking him from ZERO interest in a toy, to nailing it and shaking it after an especially good run in agility. That's what my dog does for me--vicarious thrills.
> Sometimes I get excited watching squirrels run..... (wow, I guess my boundaries might be a little soft in the other direction).
> But yeah, I'm still going to dress him up in something stupid for Christmas and post it on facebook.


Hey, my Facebook account is under the dog's name. So all the photos are her doing something or me forcing her to sit so I can take pretty photos of her when we're out hiking or walking or doing other stuff.

I quit Facebook a few years back because it was a time suck. Got the dog and realized the best way to get info on dog-related stuff was to have a Facebook account. Fine. Dog now has Facebook. That's the advantage of having a dog with a human sounding call name, I guess.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Fun illustration on a house call to prepare a little white fluffy dog for the birth of their new (human) baby. "Daddy" had constructed a high chair for the dog, nicely padded with the same fabric as the other chairs and flush with the table, so he could join them for dinner. His water dish and food bowl are placed in front of him on the table and he can only eat after "Amen". The dog does have great impulse control. First I thought Daddy was joking but no, he showed me the entire routine. The dog was completely confused as this was way outside of his dining hours and wouldn't eat. Well that was easy to fix; Mommy and Daddy filled a bowl with yogurt, sat down and prayed. And indeed, after "Amen" the dog ate too. But they have good control over the dog, he is respectful so why would I try to fix something that is not a problem? They will learn the difference between a baby and dog soon after the birth of their puppy. Then we will talk some more.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> Hey, my Facebook account is under the dog's name. So all the photos are her doing something or me forcing her to sit so I can take pretty photos of her when we're out hiking or walking or doing other stuff.
> 
> I quit Facebook a few years back because it was a time suck. Got the dog and realized the best way to get info on dog-related stuff was to have a Facebook account. Fine. Dog now has Facebook. That's the advantage of having a dog with a human sounding call name, I guess.


Facebook accounts are a serious time suck. Dogs should manage and maintain their own facebook accounts, vs lounging on the couch all day while their owners are bringing home bacon.

(imagining facebook accounts littered with dead tennis balls, horsepoop & flat frog trophy shots)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

islanddog said:


> Facebook accounts are a serious time suck. Dogs should manage and maintain their own facebook accounts, vs lounging on the couch all day while their owners are bringing home bacon.
> 
> (imagining facebook accounts littered with dead tennis balls, horsepoop & flat frog trophy shots)


And here I am imagining a dog's eye view, of a butt and a tail, and a keyboard full of slobber.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

selzer said:


> And here I am imagining a dog's eye view, of a butt and a tail, and a keyboard full of slobber.


Well, if dogs actually did have their own facebook accounts, I'm sure all the avatar's would be butt shots...and they would not call it 'face' book, fur sure.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

islanddog said:


> well, if dogs actually did have their own facebook accounts, i'm sure all the avatar's would be butt shots...and they would not call it 'face' book, fur sure.


lol!!!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Sign them up now for " Buttbook". Can you imagine what they would have to share about their people?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This is the last serious thing I have to say about it. I do need my dogs. I am a big wimp and sometimes wouldn't want to go out in the dark or down to the basement to stoke the fire. I love walking in the woods and don't want to do it alone. Plus I know from experience that if a person is lurking where they shouldn't be the dogs will let me know.

I rely on them for more than that, being service dogs. I still know they aren't people. And I don't care that I need them. They enjoy helping. Win/win. They live absolutely charmed lives and have plenty of down time/dog time and even have hobbies besides their jobs. My old female still does a happy dance when she sees her work harness. What does that tell you? Win win. To each their own


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Sign them up now for " Buttbook". Can you imagine what they would have to share about their people?


You should get this going. It could work for cats, too, given how many of them seem to like to stand on you and then back their butt into your face.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Sounds to me like your dogs are serving many purposes.  I mean really, I'm a scaredy cat, too, and depend on Varik to be my eyes and ears in the house and out in the yard (I live in the country). I can sleep peacefully--and do--because he hears EVERYTHING.


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