# Giant German Shepherds



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

This is my first post although I have been lurking
here for a while. I never really had need to post
anything up to this point.

A little background first...Im male aged 52 and had
a male GSD that was my best friend. This past May
I lost him to cancer at the age of 13. I went through
various stages Im sure many will recognize. Not wanting
another dog at first then saying I will get one eventually
to wanting one soon and progressing to wanting one NOW.

In my search for a suitable (for me) GSD Ive contacted
a number of breeders and what I ran into yesterday
really has me puzzled. One breeder sent me a nice
email along with many pictures of some of her dogs.
I was interested until I came across a notation that
the sire for the current litter weighed 160 pounds.

I thought that couldnt be right so after another exchange
of emails its confirmed that this dog weighs in at
ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY POUNDS...

Since when did GSDs weigh as much as a Newfoundland?
When questioned she assured me this is quite normal.

Now I admit Ive been asleep (figuratively) the past
13 years but upon awakening has the world really
been taken over by giant GSDs? My own dog at
his peak was around 86 pounds and I considered
him fairly large.

So what say panel of experts?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSD's are not supposed to be that big. They should not be more than 90 or 95 pounds. That is an irresponsible breeder that cares nothing about the breed or about the breed standards. She is just making the GSD breed even more unhealthy by producing huge dogs.


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm no expert, but that's certainly a big boy and I've haven't come across a healthy GSD that weighed that much.


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## Kalvin/Autmn (Jul 25, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. I see what you mean about size. It seems like it would be a factor in hip problems, etc. My male is also 85lb., tall and lean. I had him in the vet last week for otitis(sp?) and was sure she, like others, would say he was too thin. Nope, perfect! Good luck with your search!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My GSD is 16 months old and he is taller than the standard at 28' inches at the shoulder and he weighs 77 pounds. He is very lean and healthy, not an ounce of fat.


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## Asche-zu-Staub (Apr 25, 2010)

I didnt even know it was possible for them to be that big...


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I would honestly run from any breeder who touts the WEIGHT rather than the size of a dog. There are many breeders who produce oversized dogs, which they often claim are "true, old-fashioned" Shepherds, and who will tell you all about the dogs' weight. Looking at photos, many of those dogs are just FAT in addition to being over the breed standard in size.

If you like a larger dogs, there are some reputable breeders whose lines tend to produce dogs that are slightly over the standard in height. For Shepherd, the standard calls for females to be no taller than 24" and males 26", which makes them a Medium dog breed, actually, not a Large dog breed. (Although I guess your definition of Large would depend on comparisons.)

Not at all "normal" for a properly bred GSD to weigh over 100lbs.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

XTOL said:


> In my search .................
> 
> I thought that couldnt be right so after another exchange
> of emails its confirmed that this dog weighs in at
> ...


These are a bunch of the 'flavors' of GSD's being bred and you won't see any of them over 100 pounds... so it should help you with your further search for a real GSD breeder. Cause you'll be able to better figure out truth from fantasy...

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, TYPE COMPARISON

Breed Types & Related Families


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

No, they are not supposed to be that large. I would not be surprised though if the breeder was exaggerating the dog's size (or the dog is overweight.) 
However just wanted to add, large size does not necessarily mean poor health and I know of GSDs over 110 pounds with OFA excellent hips.


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## staxi2 (Oct 18, 2007)

My inlaws got a gs pup at 8 weeks,he is now about 1 and a half. I wish I could get his pics posted ,but cant figure it out now. He is huge....I am only 5'1 and his back is nearly at my hips. He weighs a even 100 lbs now. The parents were on site when they went and got him,dad was around 140,mom was around 120 ish. He had parvo at about 3 months,and just afew months ago had a cyst removed from the bone that travels toward the tail.He walks alittle ( whats the world,lol) floppy,his feet are huge. I have said from day 1,there is something wrong with his legs,but... The pics I have show his feet,and they look odd to me. I was shocked at how quickly he has grew. What age do they stop growing ?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Ask her for measurements, withers to ground, shoulders to hips... He is either obese or she doesn't know how to weigh a dog. My boy is a bit taller than a GSD should be, 28", and is about 80#'s. No fat on him.. Better tey, ask for pictures and measurement, either she's breeding mutts or she's neglectful to her dogs for letting them get that overweight. no way a pure shepherd is 160#s.

Big size doesn't mean they'll suffer. Before I started keeping my dogs in shape, my GSDs were easily 20lbs overweight each... Not ideal in any way, they moved well and had more energy than me, good hips and joints and both lived to 15-16 - I did get the weight off when they got older, the bitch went from 102 to 77, and was still overweight... But she didn't LOOK that fat. So if you take an oversized shepherd who'd be 90+ slim and make him obese, he could very well be 150+ without looking like a pot bellied pig... I know someone who claims to have a 200 pound shepherd/rottie and that it's 'thick' - I.E overweight.

Does she have a kennel website?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Many years ago there was a breeder advertising his 150lb WGSD stud. The dog was so fat he was almost as broad as he was long ... it made me sick to look at him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My neighbors GSD puppy is about 5 months old right now and he is gigantic! When he brought that puppy home at 7 weeks old it was about the same size if not bigger than Sinister when I got him at 11 weeks old! 

The guy next door said that parents were huge. I think he said the day was 120 and the mom was 90 or 95?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Also, might be King Shepherds, they are not GSDs, but resemble them a lot and are BIG. 

they are fairly new, created by mixing GSDs with other breeds for size..


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## noah (Jul 26, 2010)

My noah is about 105 to110. he is three and we have never had any problems, his father was 120, his grandfather 148.7 pounds..noah is lean and could easily put on a few more pounds, was fed raw for the first three years, because of a limping problem, went away with in the first week of new diet.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Many GSD's today are WAY too big according to the standard. Most all US show dogs are too big. if you were to watch a BOB class in a show and you happened to see a dog at the standard height, you would probably think it were a puppy compared to the other dogs!

I would love to see those GIANT dogs trotting after sheep all day or even see them working as a police/military dog all day - couldn't do it! Too big!


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Boy, did you run into a bad breeder. Even if you never get a dog from her, you'll learn a lot of great info from her Web site. This is what I think a breeder should be. Good luck in your search. www.vonlotta.com.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

I am thinking possible King Shepherds. They were developed in the 1990s, are NOT GSDs. They look like an oversized GSD but came from American and European GSD, Alaskan Malamutes and Great Pyranees. 

There are also breeders out there that for some reason twist the breed and try to oversize them and something has to be bred into the GSD to get the size increase

If someone wants something different like a King or a Shiloh, that is fine, but it is not a GSD.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Sounds like a Shiloh or a king breed with a over size female to me.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Either Shiloh or King Shepherd, an Oversized GSD, or a fat GSD. Bad breeder, I would look elsewhere.

Sorry for your loss.


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## janisinsc (Aug 26, 2009)

My GSD was 107 lbs at last weigh-in. His kennel does not want his males to be over 85 lb but it was his mom first litter and she only concieved two pups and only Gustav survived. But his dad was 85 lbs and mom 65 lbs. He breeds for police and protection work and smaller is better in his opinion. Gustav has very good bone construction and came with hip certification. Thank goodness he is thick boned and should be healthy and able to carry that size. But I agree. Steer clear if she is breeding for size only.


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## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Let me try to answer a few questions raised...

As far as I know this breeder has no web site. Contact
was strictly via email. Please understand why I am
unwilling to post this persons name or location.
I have no quarrel with her and am not out to create
any problems for her.

The only reason I posted about this was her assertion
that her Shepherds size was "quite normal".

I have photos of the dog in question and looks like
a normal GSD only HUGE. Not fat.

Also the dam of the litter currently available weighs
in at 90 pounds. While not huge thats still a big girl.
90 pound dam and 160 pound sire. Any way you look
at it those are going to be some BIG pups.

Part of the reason I posted was out of frustration of
coming up dry time after time searching for a suitable
dog. Ive been to see dogs that dont even look like GSDs
and dogs so mean Im afraid they are going to come
through a chain link fence.

So the search continues...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

XTOL said:


> Let me try to answer a few questions raised...
> 
> As far as I know this breeder has no web site. Contact
> was strictly via email. Please understand why I am
> ...


GSDs are NOT supposed to be 160lbs. It is NOT the ideal or proper weight for GSDs. Any neither is 90lbs is ideal either(I might be wrong).

Fat or not it is not right for a GSD to be 160lbs.Someone who breeds for that is not a good breeder.

If you post what you are looking for in a dog we may be able to point you in the right direction for a breeder.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

XTOL,

You are doing the right thing by not posting info about the breeder. This isn't the place to bash, and you're making it clear that isn't your intention and that other's don't have the opportunity to do so. Thank you for that!

If you can tell us your general location, or put it in your profile, members here may be able to point you at some reputable breeders in your area and help you with your search.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

XTOL, 

look through the members on this board. There are some great breeders on here and I'd buy a pup in a heartbeat from them because I know they are responsible. You have one great responsible breeder right here in this topic.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> XTOL,
> 
> look through the members on this board. There are some great breeders on here and I'd buy a pup in a heartbeat from them because I know they are responsible. You have one great responsible breeder right here in this topic.


I second that.


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## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Im located in west central Illinois...Galesburg area.
When I decided I needed another dog first option
was to adopt a young adult. I checked out all the
shelters and rescues within driving distance.

I saw LOTS of dogs but nothing I could take home with me.
Lots of retrievers and pits and small dogs.
And supposed shepherd mixes that dont even look like
a GSD.

I answered a couple Craigslist ads and that was not
too successful. Things are never quite like advertised.
(Im trying to be nice here...)

So now Im checking out breeders and there are two
within a short drive that have excellent dogs but like
they say...timing is everything. They are small breeders
and only have one or two litters a year and I just missed
out.

So right now Im inclined to wait for now and perhaps get
a pup from one of these but I keep looking. Just the
right dog may find me yet...but no 160 pound dogs for me...


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

XTOL said:


> Im located in west central Illinois...Galesburg area.
> When I decided I needed another dog first option
> was to adopt a young adult. I checked out all the
> shelters and rescues within driving distance.
> ...


Did you check these rescues out? they are GSD rescues in Illinois

Adoptables

German Shepherd Rescue, Inc. - Home Page

German Shepherd Dog Rescue of Northern Illinois - Chicago

Chicagoland Shepherd Rescue: Dogs Available


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

You're right, GSD's are not supposed to be this large. Although it's not uncommon to find them. 
I came across some extra large GSD's being bred near me when I was looking. Initially I wanted an adult and there were none in rescue in my vicinity. I got a retired breeder from someone whom I won't mention, they were actually very nice people. Their males were very likely in that weight range you mention. The female I got was 110 lb bicolor. Beautiful. But way too big for breed standard. We had to return her after 3 days because she hated my other dog with passion. Poor Coco would yelp and whimper at the mere sight of the giant bitch. The giant went after Coco a couple times, lucky for Coco she's got gobs of fur. The final time she lunged for Coco she missed and bit my daughter in the leg. That was it. Even though she loved my daughter, she was out to kill Coco and hurt anyone in her way. 
After that I found a normal size puppy.
The giant female wasn't mean because she was large, I didn't want to imply that. Just not properly socialized I guess. I'm really glad I returned her and found the right dog. Mine hasn't been on the scale recently, but I think about 70-75 lb at 1.5 years.


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## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

VegasResident said:


> Did you check these rescues out? they are GSD rescues in Illinois
> 
> http://www.gsdhaven.org/adoptables.html


Yes I have. Nothing suitable right now.
But I recheck often...


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

My mother-in-law got a GSD pup from a rescue, and he's grown up to be enormous. He is only a year and a half and lean and lanky, and was 95lbs at their last vet visit. I don't know his measurements, but he is SUPER tall. He may have something wrong with his back (it's kinda got a hump. I don't know if that's "roached" or...?), but he's still quite young, so no health problems yet, though she has never had his xrays done or anything. Sometimes you don't know what you'll end up with.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Eva is nearly 2 1/2 and is a long-hair full-coat registered GSD from German and Czech working lines. She is 77 lbs now and 26 1/2" at the withers. Her sire is 130 lbs and her dam is 100 lbs. There were only six in her litter and no runts and my breeder says her lines muture-out at around 3 years. Eva is very lean with long legs and huge paws, level top-line, and the difference is the musculature. She is has and is developing large, dense muscles and can leap like a whitetail. My vet and breeder think she will hit 90 at proper weight.

All of her past 5 generations have been OFA Good or better and I am about to have her checked before she is 2 1/2 per my breeder's puppy guarantee as a formality. She gets an incredible amount of varied exercise and exhibits zero signs of displaysia.

All of that said, I agree that 150 lbs is an exageration or an aberration, probably fat and could be a problem. It always comes down to the breeder, and I don't agree that all of the large GSD breeders are irresponsible - just do your homework. 

IMO, 100-120 lbs is not a problem for a non-angulated well-muscled GSD from a respected and responsible breeder.

Whew!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Eva is nearly 2 1/2 and is a long-hair full-coat registered GSD from German and Czech working lines. She is 77 lbs now and 26 1/2" at the withers. Her sire is 130 lbs and her dam is 100 lbs. There were only six in her litter and no runts and my breeder says her lines muture-out at around 3 years. Eva is very lean with long legs and huge paws, level top-line, and the difference is the musculature. She is has and is developing large, dense muscles and can leap like a whitetail. My vet and breeder think she will hit 90 at proper weight.
> 
> All of her past 5 generations have been OFA Good or better and I am about to have her checked before she is 2 1/2 per my breeder's puppy guarantee as a formality. She gets an incredible amount of varied exercise and exhibits zero signs of displaysia.
> 
> ...


But way over standard for a GSD female! A number of breeders would argue that dogs that are too big should not be bred - esp to another oversize dog.

For example, our US male is about 27" and about 84 lbs at 2 1/2 yo. He doesn't look oversize in the breed ring since almost all of the other dogs are as big or bigger than he is. I don't think it is a good trend in GSD's to keep getting bigger and bigger. We should be breeding to the standard in all aspects both mental and physical.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> But way over standard for a GSD female! A number of breeders would argue that dogs that are too big should not be bred - esp to another oversize dog.
> 
> For example, our US male is about 27" and about 84 lbs at 2 1/2 yo. He doesn't look oversize in the breed ring since almost all of the other dogs are as big or bigger than he is. I don't think it is a good trend in GSD's to keep getting bigger and bigger. We should be breeding to the standard in all aspects both mental and physical.


I feel the female shouldn't be 100+ lbs but a male could be 120 lbs if he's not an anomally. 

I have pictures of Eva's last seven generations and information about older generations, and the males are all 100-130 lbs, 28+" and average about 13 years with no hip problems.

As far as "standard" I believe that show-dog lines and working-dog lines are of two clearly recognizable but different ones, though only show dogs are officially "standard".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> I feel the female shouldn't be 100+ lbs but a male could be 120 lbs if he's not an anomally. I have pictures of Eva's last seven generations and information about older generations, and the males are all 100-130 lbs, 28+" and average about 13 years with no hip problems.As far as "standard" I believe that show-dog lines and working-dog lines are of two clearly recognizable but different ones, though only show dogs are officially "standard".


120 lbs is way too big according to the GSD standard (US and SV as well) Do you realize that the standard height for what a male is supposed to be is only 24-26". The GSD is not supposed to be a Giant dog but more of a medium big dog.

BTW, it may be hard to realize (which is another problem) but show GSD's and working GSD's are supposed to follow the exact same standard! (different between US and SV but the same within a country!).


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

I agree that Eva's lines are out of the published standard dimensions but they are not out of line with her ancestors as far back as I can trace. I didn't realize the working GSDs were expected to meet standards as they often don't, usually owing to coat or color. 

I did a lot of research before getting Eva, wanted to make sure she had the double coat, good hips and good lines, and nice coloring and I was able to meet many of her relatives as the breeder is a passed-down family business and the retired breeders remain as pets.

These are her sire and dam.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'd like to see this pedigree of 7 generations of German and Czech working lines that are all in the 100-130 lbs range and over 28 inches please! Very curious about it!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> I agree that Eva's lines are out of the published standard dimensions but they are not out of line with her ancestors as far back as I can trace. I didn't realize the working GSDs were expected to meet standards as they often don't, usually owing to coat or color.
> 
> I did a lot of research before getting Eva, wanted to make sure she had the double coat, good hips and good lines, and nice coloring and I was able to meet many of her relatives as the breeder is a passed-down family business and the retired breeders remain as pets.
> 
> These are her sire and dam.


I'm seen the male online before... He looks a whole lot like a King to me..

EDIT*
I recognized him from his kennel... They even say they breed oversized shepherds... Most likely a king shepherd... Some of the dogs she has pictured on her kennel also look like Shilohs. Beautiful dogs, but not GSDs. One of her studs looks highly mixed with something like a Pyrenees...


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Besides being out of breed standard, why is it so bad for them to be over-sized, as long as they have good health and temperaments? If they have good hips and elbows, they're lean and kept in shape, and their musculature suits their size, what's so bad about it? 

I mean, I can totally see why people would want one, and I don't blame them. I love the temperament of GSD's, but I also love larger dogs. If I could have a healthy extra large GSD, why not? I'm sure a larger dog wouldn't be as agile, but would it be that huge of a difference?

I'm sure that most people breeding or advertising "XL GSD's" _aren't_ breeding for health and temperament, so I get that. And that if they aren't trying to better the breed or suit the breed standard, then they _aren't_ all that reputable. But then again, look what the American showlines have done to dogs and still suits the breed standard. The extreme angulation seems to me to be a much worse offense than breeding them to be larger. Isn't that how mastiffs got to be so large, by intentionally breeding them to be?

When I first started thinking about getting a puppy, I emailed a breeder like that. She seemed pretty well-known for those types of dogs, not just a regular old backyard breeder... I thought.

After researching some more, and getting some good advice from you guys, I realized that that's not really what I was looking for, and the email she sent me was god-awful. Horrendous punctuation, spelling and grammatical errors aside, the info she gave was completely false and ignorant. It was terrible.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

XTOL said:


> Im located in west central Illinois...Galesburg area.
> When I decided I needed another dog first option
> was to adopt a young adult. I checked out all the
> shelters and rescues within driving distance.


I have a list of breeders in the area that I saved when I was looking to get a puppy. I ended up adopting an adult dog instead (from the dog's previous owner, I found them through an ad on Pedigree Database) but I kept the list of breeders for future reference. Maybe one of these will match what you're looking for?

Here it is:

*GSDs Illinois/area*


Show Me Shepherds AKC registered German Shepherds, bred for health & temperament, GSD’s for family, SAR, police, protection, work, Schutzhund, competition.

AKC German Shepherd Dogs | Moonshadow German Shepherd Dogs. conformation, obedience, agility, tracking, & herding 

Eichenluft German Shepherds - Dogs for SaleWorking lines and show lines. Member of USA, SV &. AKC. 

Gutten Haus Kennels 

Angels In Disguise

Triton Kennels

Vom Haus Miller

Castlebrook GSD - European, Czech and DDR foundation dogs. Puppies available. 
Dog Sports, Police K9's, SAR, Therapy work.

Von Barren Berg Shepherds East german shepherds bred for temperament,health & structure. 

Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan, by Wildhaus Kennels


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Eva is nearly 2 1/2 and is a long-hair full-coat registered GSD from German and Czech working lines.


I am looking at the two photos you've posted of Eva's dam and sire, and then back at your statement that she is from German and Czech working lines, and I am having a very hard time putting the two together. The dogs pictured don't look anything like working lines, German or Czech.

Working line dogs are supposed to meet the breed standard just like show line dogs are supposed to meet the breed standard. Many show line dogs fall short in terms of working ability and temperament, and many working line dogs fall ... well, not short ... but outside the standard due to being over the height standard (though generally by two or three inches).



> But then again, look what the American showlines have done to dogs and still suits the breed standard.


Those dogs don't meet the breed standard, either. The standard is pretty clear in what the dog should be like, what the gait and angulation should be like. It's more like "popular trends in defying the standard" than meeting the standard.


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## ElvisP (May 19, 2010)

I had an encounter at a lake in Arizona this past weekend. I was walking Elvis on the lake shoreline and some older people from out of the US came paddling up in the kayak's and loved my Elvis. I told them that he'd probably max out at 90-100 lbs and their remark was "Oh, he is going to be a tiny boy then." 

They said they were GSD people. I told them my former GSD, King, was 125 lbs and they stated that he was on the small side too. King was a large boned GSD ... big, lean but very muscular. 

These people gave me the impression that they are used to much larger GSD's so it's possible that 150+ lb GSD's do exist. In my life, I have seen one extremely giant GSD ... he had to have weighed in at at least 150-170 lbs (a complete guess but he was huge). I'm sure these dogs exist but that is too big in my opinion for a GSD ... that's my opinion anyway.

P.S. I'm very sorry for your loss.


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## WolfCrest (May 13, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> Also, might be King Shepherds, they are not GSDs, but resemble them a lot and are BIG.
> 
> they are fairly new, created by mixing GSDs with other breeds for size..


 
I was thinking this or a shiloh shepherd


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Not only do a lot of people have extremely overweight dogs, they also exaggerate. Just the other day, my brother tried to tell me his GSD's are _over_ 130lbs each.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> These are her sire and dam.


This is what you call responsible breeding?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> I'm seen the male online before... He looks a whole lot like a King to me..
> 
> EDIT*
> I recognized him from his kennel... They even say they breed oversized shepherds... Most likely a king shepherd... Some of the dogs she has pictured on her kennel also look like Shilohs. Beautiful dogs, but not GSDs. One of her studs looks highly mixed with something like a Pyrenees...


Even though they are recognized breeds in the States, to me, personally, they'll be always mutts. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> *I am looking at the two photos you've posted of Eva's dam and sire, and then back at your statement that she is from German and Czech working lines, and I am having a very hard time putting the two together. The dogs pictured don't look anything like working lines, German or Czech.*


Honestly, I can't believe that any of the two come from German or Czech Working line.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I can't believe that any of the two come from German or Czech Working line.


Research Pedigree - 4 Generation
Tritons Boss Selah

Reg Name:	Tritons Boss Selah
Reg #:	DN081344/01	Breed/Variety:	German Shepherd Dog
Birth Date:	01/01/2004	Sex:	Male
Colors/Markings:	White
Breeder(s):	Tina Kuzniacki
Tritons Boss Selah
DN081344/01
White	Emillio
DN044590/01 03-04 (Canada)
Black & Tan	Parkins Aero
CKC BN093365	Bandellero's "M.A.S.H."
CKC WE780279	CH Bethesda's Tacoma Of Si-Don CD
D350561 02-87
Black & Tan 
OFA53F OFEL53
Bandellero Star Of Nordlicht
D118314
Black & Tan
Marwades Shadow
CKC YL025332	Nike Clayfield Heritage
D704950 06-92
Black & Tan
Your Our Sunshine Of Marwade
CKC QJ685465
Ole O's Wyona
CKC BE102261	Sunshadows Target
CKC VE728406	Cherry Vom Schienerberg
SZ 1003483
Sunshadows Becca
CKC NE245797
Chricava's Valencia Sunshine
CKC SA466319	Semiahmoo's Gunner
CKC NW286161
Chricava's Melba
CKC NS254268
Legacy's Nika Sioux
DL840642/11 05-02
Black & Red	Duke Lionhart Von Hinrichs
DL753567/08 09-00
Sable	Ratz Von Haus Antverpa
DL751734/01 11-98 (Belgium)
Sable	Mando Von Haus Antverpa
DL512013/01 07-94 (Belgium)
Black & Tan
Daphne Vom Ratzeburger Land
SZ 1733735
Gina Von Lionhart
DL447696/04 01-94
Black & Tan 
OFA24G	Tiger Vom Schmiedegrundsee
DL424849/01 02-93 (Germany)
Sable
Milly Von Haus Antverpa
DL438082/01 02-93 (Belgium)
Sable
Reigning King's Cheyenne
DL739924/02 11-99
Black & Red	Lu-Mar's Austin Texas
DL592534/06 08-96
Black & Red	Mar-Sal's Blitzen
DA017953 10-93
Black & Tan
Mar-Sal's Miranda
DL459955/04 10-95
Black & Red
Mar-Sal's Ricarda
DL559395/10 11-96
Black & Red	Mar-Sal's John's Rebel
DL336028/01 03-95
Black & Red
Mar-Sal's Lexus
DL444848/01 03-95
Black & Tan

Sire's brief history - I see a lot of CZs in there... same for her dam.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

part of the problem is that most people can't guess weight for *bleep* Rayden is 85, though he did get up to 92 over the winter. As he is getting older, he tends to develop a bit of "fat butt" if I don't keep an eye on him. People routinely assume he weighs 130+.

When I walked he and Freya together, people assumed that she was a puppy. It was impossible to convince them that she weighed 76 and he was 85. 
I've met a lot of people over the years who bragged about the size of their dogs. On the occasions that I was able to meet the dogs, they weighed nothing close to what their owners guessed. Average discrepancy was 10 lbs, more if the dog had a thick coat.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I found him on Shiloshepherds info. (Tritons Boss Selah)

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/selah%20OFA%20results.pdf

Go down the list, you'll find his name on there.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And that explains everything.
Selah`s Old Fashioned German Shepherd Dog Breeder

King size old fashion German Shepherd males


> * Boss is a solid white, not snow white, but a cream apricot buffing over his entire body, very confident with lots of play energy,but in a calm manner,stable, very sweet happy guy! Maturing out to be a handsome big boy and still growing! He has a comical way about him, and loves every body! But when he feels he needs to be serious, a protective side has shown in him. He is very aware and watchful. Not a shy bone in him. Boss is one tough boy and this is how he got his name "Boss".*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least they are OFA certified.


Now take a good look on what Czech & German Working lines really look like. 

http://vombanachk9.homestead.com/Females.html


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Oh, dang!

5 points awarded to Mrs. K

 opcorn:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Real German Working Line Dogs.

Deutscher Schäferhundzwinger vom Gimpelwald - Home
Home
Home
Home
Zwinger vom Sattelberg Kör- und Leistungszucht - Schäferhunde Österreich


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

blackviolet said:


> Besides being out of breed standard, why is it so bad for them to be over-sized, as long as they have good health and temperaments? If they have good hips and elbows, they're lean and kept in shape, and their musculature suits their size, what's so bad about it?



Because it's hard enough to breed for good hips, good elbows, good eyes, solid nerve, proper temperament, good drive and working ability, protective yet not aggressive, and everything else a GSD is supposed to be. Once you start breeding for something additional, whether it be large size or "rare" colors, you drastically shrink your gene pool and greatly reduce your chances of getting the necessities. So you end up with big dogs who have good hips and elbows but soft temperaments. Or huge dogs with good hips and are shy and skittish. 

By the way, the only way to be sure your GSD has everything I listed above and is truly worthy of breeding is to compete or work with them. You can't tell drives, nerves, temperament, and conformation with a dog that lives on your farm and rides with you to Petco twice a week. The truly huge dogs aren't seen in the show ring, schutzhund field, herding trials, police cars, agility ring, or anywhere else like that very often, so how do you prove they're breedworthy?


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## janisinsc (Aug 26, 2009)

Also in response to blackvelvet: As it was explained to me by Gustav's kennel, more weight means more stress on the joints, just like with humans. If you end up with a giant size but not a larged boned dog, you run risks. Gustav is big but it was not intentional and he has a good solid bone structure (plus hip certification). So its not neccessrily a bad thing if it happens but I don't think a reputable breeder IMHO would be breeding just for size.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the DOGS themselves, mixing king/shiloh/german shepherds along with other breeds, and then calling them German Shepherds... they are not, they are mixes and it gives people the wrong idea of what a German Shepherd is. 

And in this day and age, breeding mutts is ludicrous, there are TONS of oversized fluffy dogs with mellow temperaments in shelters, why breed for them?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

blackviolet said:


> Besides being out of breed standard, why is it so bad for them to be over-sized, as long as they have good health and temperaments? If they have good hips and elbows, they're lean and kept in shape, and their musculature suits their size, what's so bad about it?


BEcause of what the dog was BRED to do.

GSDs were bred to be working dogs. Being able to go all day long without getting exhausted.

Can you imagine a 150 dog being able to work all day long?

Would a Border Collie be able to work all day if they were 100+ pounds?

The standard was created to describe the CORRECT attributes for the dog based on their purpose.

For example, here's part of a standard:



> Webbing between the toes is of soft skin, well covered with hair, and reaches the toe tips. Central pad is very thick, others normal.


Now why would anyone care THAT much about the dogs feet? Because it effects how well the dog can do it's job.

That's from the Portuguese WATER Dog standard. Dogs bred to work in WATER - hence the need for webbed feet.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I know you said you have looking in the local rescues, and didn't see anything suitable, so I'm not sure of your requirements. 


I did check out your area and ran across this guy and he pulled on the heartstrings. Looks like a sweet boy that needs someone to give him hope. 








He looks like a long hair so with some good food and a little grooming, I bet he would be a gorgeous boy. 

Adoptable German Shepherd Dog: Beju: Petfinder

Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh man, he has the same look Yukon had when I got him. I WOULD TAKE THAT DOG IN A HEARTBEAT WITHOUT LOOKING BACK!!

He needs some love!!!


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I can't stand it when Shiloh and King Shepherd breeders are claiming that their dogs are German Shepherds, simply because they know that they are not. There are some breeders who produce Shilohs (and probably King Shepherds, too) who are reputable and are pretty up front about the fact that these are not German Shepherds and are not supposed to be German Shepherds.

I have a good friend who has a Shiloh who got him from what I would consider to be a reputable breeder in that they do health test, they do participate in dog sports, and they encourage their puppy buyers to be active with their dogs and keep in touch. My friend goes to visit the breeder every so often, sends progress reports on her dog, etc. Of course, she also gets the "what kind of dog is that?" question a lot because her dog is silver/black and long coated and very large. She tells them he is a Shiloh Shepherd, which is German Shepherd mixed with Malamute.

If you breed Shilohs and Kings, then be HONEST about it and tell your puppy buyers what they are, how they've had other dogs bred in for size, and what your breeding goals are. Don't tell them they're German Shepherds and that this is "what German Shepherds are supposed to / used to look like" because that makes you a big fat liar.



> Sire's brief history - I see a lot of CZs in there... same for her dam.


The pedigree was pretty difficult to read due to the way it was posted, but I looked most of the dogs up on Pedigree Database and I can't say I am seeing any Czech dogs? Maybe you can point out to me which of those are Czech? I am seeing mostly American-bred dogs with some East German (DDR) blood behind it several generations back, carrying mostly Schutzhund titles (which are required for breeding in Germany).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> I found him on Shiloshepherds info. (Tritons Boss Selah)
> 
> http://www.shilohshepherds.info/selah%20OFA%20results.pdf
> 
> Go down the list, you'll find his name on there.


Just because it is on that website does not mean the dogs are Shiloh Shepherds. Note in the info under breed it says German Shepherd Dog. Most likely these dogs were used in outcrosses of the Shiloh when they wanted to breed to GSDs, or they are listed because they show up in Shiloh pedigrees as they were used in outcrosses.
There are plenty of breeders with large GSDs who don't look like the standard at all-- that doesn't mean they aren't purebred though, just that they are not bred to the standard (or that they are bred to a breeder's own "standard" to look a certain way they like, not like the breed is supposed to look.)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You know, over here, these dogs will never be purebred German Shepherds. They don't even look like German Shepherds. 

First of all:

The dogs are not titled nor have they appropriate papers. 
Secondly they are way outside the Standard
Third they mix white GSD's with their so called "GSD's" which over here is NOT a GSD, they are Swiss Shepherds and are *banned from the SV*. And that makes them mutts!

These dogs, in my book, will never be purebred! They breed for size and for size only. 
The only credit I give them is that they get them OFA certified.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

One of those breeders of XL dogs (the one I originally contacted) says that they _are_ purebred GSD's, and specifies that they aren't shiloh or king shepherds, and that they have AKC paperwork, so it is possible that they've just been breeding the biggest ones.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> One of those breeders of XL dogs (the one I originally contacted) says that they _are_ purebred GSD's, and specifies that they aren't shiloh or king shepherds, and that they have AKC paperwork, *so it is possible that they've just been breeding the biggest ones*.


 
Sinisters breeder is breeding for very large GSD's. :nono:


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

THose look like lions!


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> You know, over here, these dogs will never be purebred German Shepherds. They don't even look like German Shepherds.
> 
> First of all:
> 
> ...



These dogs are mainly bred to be pets and to be wonderful with people and children, and other dogs, while maintaining the traits that make GSDs. My Eva is fearless, curious, blazingly intelligent, highly-trained, and especially, protective of my 8-month and two-year old nieces, both of whom she has known since infants. She loves to play with other dogs and is very gentle with the three puppies she has watched grow up (not hers, not GSDs). There is not one desireable trait she is lacking, and she has plusses. Never chewed up my house, is very calm inside, and there is not one trace of anxiety, just those beautiful Shepherd eyes which tell me she is 100% GSD, oh, and that little registration number thingy and a well-documented past of registered GSDs for both sires and dams, including a few SZ numbers.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Sinisters breeder is breeding for very large GSD's. :nono:


Why?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Purebred doesn't mean Well Bred


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> These dogs are mainly bred to be pets and to be wonderful with people and children, and other dogs, while *maintaining the traits that make GSDs.* My Eva is fearless, curious, blazingly intelligent, highly-trained, and especially, protective of my 8-month and two-year old nieces, both of whom she has known since infants. She loves to play with other dogs and is very gentle with the three puppies she has watched grow up (not hers, not GSDs). There is not one desireable trait she is lacking, and she has plusses. Never chewed up my house, is very calm inside, and there is not one trace of anxiety, just those beautiful Shepherd eyes which tell me she is 100% GSD, oh, and that little registration number thingy and a well-documented past of registered GSDs for both sires and dams, including a few SZ numbers.


*What traits would these be? Obviously not the GSD standard since they are deliberately going against at least some of this.*

*It is very nice that your dog turned out so well for you, but does not excuse the breeder for breeding against the standard to satisfy their own personal view of what a GSD should be and look like. *


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> BEcause of what the dog was BRED to do.
> 
> GSDs were bred to be working dogs. Being able to go all day long without getting exhausted.
> 
> ...


Eva goes all day long about 200 days/year covering about 20 miles each of those days. 

She is a few months over two and weighs 76 lbs and is 26 1/2 inches, and will likely finish in the low- to mid-80s. We are not talking about 150-lb dogs here. 

If the hypothetical 100-lb border collie were of correct proportion and corresponding bone structure and musculature, sure why not? Happens in humans all the time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

76 lbs is not THAT far over standard so I would hope she has alot of energy. 150 lbs is outrageously out of standard.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *What traits would these be? Obviously not the GSD standard since they are deliberately going against at least some of this.*
> 
> *It is very nice that your dog turned out so well for you, but does not excuse the breeder for breeding against the standard to satisfy their own personal view of what a GSD should be and look like. *


It would a long list if I had to list her GSD traits, so to make it easier for this discussion could you please let me know what you think she is missing?


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> 76 lbs is not THAT far over standard so I would hope she has alot of energy. 150 lbs is outrageously out of standard.


She has endless energy, all positive!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Eva goes all day long about 200 days/year covering about 20 miles each of those days.
> *Wow! What does she do all day - herding?*
> 
> She is a few months over two and weighs 76 lbs and is 26 1/2 inches, and will likely finish in the low- to mid-80s. We are not talking about 150-lb dogs here.
> ...


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Wow! What does she do all day - herding?[/COLOR][/B]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the 7-foot NBA player is akin to the 150-lb GSD in that they are both at the upper end of "large" but someone like LeBron James or Michael Jordan dominates. Of course the ST.B couldn't keep up with the GSD, just like Shaq couldn't keep up with LeBron.

Eva gets her miles many ways. Mountain biking with me, backcountry camping and hiking, as a tow-dog on my longboard skateboard, flyfishing with me, chasing deer and yes, some herding! I spend nearly 50 days/year on a friend's huge farm and she is amazing with the sheep and cows - a joy to watch.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> I think the 7-foot NBA player is akin to the 150-lb GSD in that they are both at the upper end of "large" but someone like LeBron James or Michael Jordan dominates. Of course the ST.B couldn't keep up with the GSD, just like Shaq couldn't keep up with LeBron....


Exactly the point why the GSD must remail a medium large dog if they are going to be able to keep up with their current duties of herder, K9, seeing eye dog S&R (imagine a 150 lb S&R dog!, etc.
BTW, Shaq in his prime was much more athletic than the normal 7 footer - how about Yao ming, a 7' 6" giant. He doesn't run, he lumbers. 

And like dogs, the very large people are good at some things and not so good at others. Same as dogs - that is why there are som small, medium, large and giant dogs to be good at very different things.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:



LaRen616 said:


> GSD's are not supposed to be that big. They should not be more than 90 or 95 pounds. That is an irresponsible breeder that cares nothing about the breed or about the breed standards. She is just making the GSD breed even more unhealthy by producing huge dogs.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Eva von Selah said:


> These dogs are mainly bred to be pets and to be wonderful with people and children, and other dogs, while maintaining the traits that make GSDs. My Eva is fearless, curious, blazingly intelligent, highly-trained, and especially, protective of my 8-month and two-year old nieces, both of whom she has known since infants. She loves to play with other dogs and is very gentle with the three puppies she has watched grow up (not hers, not GSDs). There is not one desireable trait she is lacking, and she has plusses. Never chewed up my house, is very calm inside, and there is not one trace of anxiety, just those beautiful Shepherd eyes which tell me she is 100% GSD, oh, and that little registration number thingy and a well-documented past of registered GSDs for both sires and dams, including a few SZ numbers.


You're dog sounds wonderful. Don't worry about other peoples opinions. There are so many. You're very lucky to have her and she's just as lucky to have you!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

You might enjoy looking at my dog's breeder's website : http://gaardog.com/ She loves to take photos and the dogs and puppies are so beautiful. She does have different types (white, long-haired, stock coat), so you may get more an idea of what you want. She does work with North Dakota rescue so there are sometimes older pups and adults listed. I am very sorry for your loss. After having your GSD for so long, it is so difficult to take that first step, but your dog would not want you to be alone. Good Luck!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mac's Mom said:


> You're dog sounds wonderful. Don't worry about other peoples opinions. There are so many. You're very lucky to have her and she's just as lucky to have you!


No one's saying she's not a good dog, just that she's out of standard and shouldn't be bred. I have two wonderful, gorgeous, obedient, protective, healthy dogs that I love very much and I'm lucky to have them, but they're out of the standard and shouldn't be bred.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Exactly the point why the GSD must remail a medium large dog if they are going to be able to keep up with their current duties of herder, K9, seeing eye dog S&R (imagine a 150 lb S&R dog!, etc.
> BTW, Shaq in his prime was much more athletic than the normal 7 footer - how about Yao ming, a 7' 6" giant. He doesn't run, he lumbers.


I agree. My point was that most of these "giants" are really only 115 lbs max. Exaggeration runs rampant.

So, I think a lean and properly-proportioned 110-lb male GSD wouldn't have a problem, as long as it "trains" or "works out" regularly.

These two pics are sires in my Eva's lines, both about 110 lbs - how can anyone say these are not GSDs??


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Eva von Selah said:


> These two pics are sires in my Eva's lines, both about 110 lbs - how can anyone say these are not GSDs??


She's an absolutely gorgeous german shepherd.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Mac's Mom said:


> You're dog sounds wonderful. Don't worry about other peoples opinions. There are so many. You're very lucky to have her and she's just as lucky to have you!


Really the whole point, thank you!  

One knows the look they give you and how they behave when they love and respect you, and that's all I ever see.

And, she's freakin' gorgeous!! aw:

How is this not a German Shepherd Dog?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Eva von Selah said:


> how can anyone say these are not GSDs??


Nobody's saying they're not GSDs. My floppy-eared GSD is a GSD. My weak-nerved GSD is a GSD. A GSD with no undercoat is still a GSD. That doesn't mean those charictaristics should be specifically bred for. 

Breed standards are what make a breed what it is. They're what separates labs from cocker spaniels from Newfoundlands. We can't just pick and choose what parts we like or at some point we lose what makes the breed what it is. You like oversized dogs. I'm partial to floppy ears. Someone else might like long-coated whites. If we aren't held to the standard, at some point we end up with pure-bred GSDs that look a lot like Great Pyranees.

Although, at 76lb, your Eva isn't really oversized.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Eva von Selah said:


> And, she's freakin' gorgeous!! aw:
> 
> How is this not a German Shepherd Dog?


Thanks for the additional pictures. She is gorgeous!!


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Emoore said:


> No one's saying she's not a good dog, just that she's out of standard and shouldn't be bred. I have two wonderful, gorgeous, obedient, protective, healthy dogs that I love very much and I'm lucky to have them, but they're out of the standard and shouldn't be bred.


Eva was spayed at 9 months.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx, my female from mixed lines is 26" and 93# 
I wouldn't call her a "giant" as she isn't large boned and bulky. However she is over the standard and not as agile as I'd like. She is of course Spayed!
Can you tell which one is Onyx?


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Nobody's saying they're not GSDs.


codmaster is...


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> !
> Can you tell which one is Onyx?


I can see Onyx, beautiful!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Most of the breeders I've seen who are breeding for larger sized GSDs are NOT talking about 150+ pounds GSDs. Their females are usually about 75-95 pounds and males 90-120 pounds. 

You can find dogs that size from "standard" breeders too, just check out the "how big is your GSD" threads on here, for example:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/take-poll/98937-how-gsd-size.html
or
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/135174-how-big-your-gsd.html


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

This is Eva at about 1 year with her new friend, Reilly, a just-retired 7-year old NJ State Police K9 Officer who came to flyfish for the weekend at the farm. They played, romped, herded cows and sheep, and stomped through the river all weekend! 

How does the dog on the left, Eva my way out of standard GSD, vary from the full standard Sch3, super-pedigreed, expensively-trained $10,000 police dog on the right?


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> Most of the breeders I've seen who are breeding for larger sized GSDs are NOT talking about 150+ pounds GSDs. Their females are usually about 75-95 pounds and males 90-120 pounds.


Exactly.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Great link to the thread, thanks! See how many of these gorgeous dogs are "non-standard" weight? Many in the 90-lb range, they mustn't be GSDs...


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Some people have an expensive sports car and they polish and tune and keep it out of the rain and fuss all over it, then truck it to places on the weekends where they can show it off to all of the other expensive sports car people; and some people have expensive sports cars and they drive them to work every day and then really drive them on the weekend - rain or shine. 

I bet the cars don't care either way.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Great link to the thread, thanks! See how many of these gorgeous dogs are "non-standard" weight? Many in the 90-lb range, they mustn't be GSDs...


Do you think its okay to breed GSDs that are over standard?

No one is saying the dogs are bad, just that they shouldn't be bred. My dog is over standard.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Do you think its okay to breed GSDs that are over standard?
> 
> No one is saying the dogs are bad, just that they shouldn't be bred. My dog is over standard.


I do think it's okay within the right parameters. 

Why is the "standard" weight set where it is? Cannot there be prefectly healthy dogs 10 lbs above this "standard"? 

Are not these standards open to review and amendement as whatever current governing board sees fit?

I don't see my Eva, even if she gets to 85 lbs while lean, as non-standard. She has the full double coat with dense guard hairs, perfect ears, no digestion or anxiety problems, clear eyes with no weep, no skin problems, a level topline with a strongly-muscled rear, and long/strong legs, which add lbs.

I don't want to see a 130+ lb male Shepherd as a norm nor do I want to see a 100+ lb female as a norm. But there is room for responsible breeders of these larger, pure GSDs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> I do think it's okay within the right parameters.
> 
> Why is the "standard" weight set where it is? Cannot there be prefectly healthy dogs 10 lbs above this "standard"?
> 
> ...



When the breed was made or created thats when the standard came into play. People wanted that kind of dog so to get that kind of dog they bred dogs to create more dogs like it and keep it that way. Anyone who is more knowledgeable on the subject needs to chime in.

My female GSD is beautiful, but not in the standard and should be bred. No one is saying they aren't GSDs. We are saying that is not the way the GSD should look.They aren't good examples of the breed.

Also you said your GSD is from Czech working lines. Post her pedigree so others who are more in tune with working lines can see if she is or isn't from working lines.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Nobody's saying they're not GSDs. My floppy-eared GSD is a GSD. My weak-nerved GSD is a GSD. A GSD with no undercoat is still a GSD. That doesn't mean those charictaristics should be specifically bred for.
> 
> Breed standards are what make a breed what it is. They're what separates labs from cocker spaniels from Newfoundlands. We can't just pick and choose what parts we like or at some point we lose what makes the breed what it is. You like oversized dogs. I'm partial to floppy ears. Someone else might like long-coated whites. If we aren't held to the standard, at some point we end up with pure-bred GSDs that look a lot like Great Pyranees.
> 
> Although, at 76lb, your Eva isn't really oversized.


Very well said!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I can see a good breeder breeding a dog a little oversize if it had superior qualities. No matter how awesome the dog is I would never support a breeding of a 120+ lb dog


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

i have notice that more gsd owners are talking about how large their dogs are and i must agree 160 is a crazy number . however i own a larger german shepherd he is 8 months 93 lbs 26 inches tall male. not all sheperds will meet the breed standerd some are bigger and some are smaller but you want to be around the standared not 160 lbs thats irresponsible.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> I can see a good breeder breeding a dog a little oversize if it had superior qualities. No matter how awesome the dog is I would never support a breeding of a 120+ lb dog


Fully agree.


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

some of the comments are very hypertensus "post your pedigre so others in the know ... bla bla just stop it enjoy your pet who cares if its over or under the standard. weak very weak! i dont have to prove any thing to any one. get over your self and your dog.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

dukethegsd said:


> i have notice that more gsd owners are talking about how large their dogs are and i must agree 160 is a crazy number . however i own a larger german shepherd he is 8 months 93 lbs 26 inches tall male. not all sheperds will meet the breed standerd some are bigger and some are smaller but you want to be around the standared not 160 lbs thats irresponsible.


I agree. My female GSD looks small. She is 3 years old 23inches and 56-66lbs(she isn't starving she is a picky eater and has TONS of energy).My male GSD is big and has qualites such as his tail and not within the standard.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

dukethegsd said:


> some of the comments are very hypertensus "post your pedigre so others in the know ... bla bla just stop it enjoy your pet who cares if its over or under the standard. weak very weak! i dont have to prove any thing to any one. get over your self and your dog.


well its she was saying that her dog was of certain lines and people wanted to know.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Even better, compare these two...

One is Eva, a grossly out-of-standard two-year old GSD or mutt (depends on whose posts you agree with) and the other is Eva with Reilly, a seven year-old male NJ State Police K9 Officer, just retired. (She's only 9 months in the dual pic).

I would love to be shown what makes one of them so non-standard. Thanks.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Even better, compare these two...
> 
> One is Eva,* a grossly out-of-standard two-year old GSD or mutt* (depends on whose posts you agree with) and the other is Eva with Reilly, a seven year-old male NJ State Police K9 Officer, just retired. (She's only 9 months in the dual pic).
> 
> I would love to be shown what makes one of them so non-standard. Thanks.


No one said that. Maybe 1 or 2 people thats it. No one said your dog was ugly or anything.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Eva is beautiful! It sounds like she's about Bianca's size and build, Bianca is 26" tall and 75 pounds. Bianca is from West German showlines mixed with working lines and she was originally purchased from her breeder (as a puppy) as Sch/showing/breeding quality (which did not work out due to her developing pyometra and having to be spayed, that is how I ended up being able to adopt her.)


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> Eva is beautiful! It sounds like she's about Bianca's size and build, Bianca is 26" tall and 75 pounds. Bianca is from West German showlines mixed with working lines and she was originally purchased from her breeder (as a puppy) as Sch/showing/breeding quality (which did not work out due to her developing pyometra and having to be spayed, that is how I ended up being able to adopt her.)


Eva thanks you for the compliment! Bianca looks very similar in coloring and shorter in coat and is a beautiful black and red, very nice!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

dukethegsd said:


> some of the comments are very _*hypertensus*_ "post your pedigre so others in the know ... bla bla just stop it enjoy your pet who cares if its over or under the standard. weak very weak! i dont have to prove any thing to any one. get over your self and your dog.


what? did you mean pretentious?

I don't think anyone is trying to prove one dog better than another. A lot of questions about a dogs pedigree is trying to find out what lines the dog is.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Why?


I believe she said something along the lines of "I am getting out of breeding blacks and am now breeding black/tans only and very large GSD's." 


She has several males over 100 pounds, I believe one is 120 or 130 and most of the females are over 90 pounds.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

So, did anyone ever hear back from the OP about whether he found something he was interested in, or a rescue? Seems the thread got taken over by politics.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No one said that. Maybe 1 or 2 people thats it. No one said your dog was ugly or anything.


No-one ever said anything about EVA. I was shocked about the sire and the dam. They are grossly out of standard and I simply couldn't believe that they are czech or german working line, which they are simply not. Maybe waaaaay back in line...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

we all have our preferences when it comes to "looks",,beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. And we all have our opinions on certain breeders, the standard etc. 

Breeding way oversized gsd's for some, is never going to stop, just as puppy mills will always exist. People are still going to buy BIG gsd's because they want them and to each his own !

Eva is a gorgeous dog, I think much much better looking than her 'parents', who are not my cup of tea, but that is my opinion) To me, she looks more like the wsl vs czech or german working line, but as mrs k pointed out, waaaaaay back there are some, but to far back to influence today. 

As one pointed out, all gsd's are gorgeous, we have our preferences and as long as you are happy with your dog that's really all that matters.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> *we all have our preferences when it comes to "looks",,beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. And we all have our opinions on certain breeders, the standard etc.*
> 
> Breeding way oversized gsd's for some, is never going to stop, just as puppy mills will always exist. People are still going to buy BIG gsd's because they want them and to each his own !
> 
> ...


Exactly! I love my black/grey/red GSD that's 2 inches over the standard and missing his back right toe nail off of his back right paw.


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## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

VaBeachFamily said:


> So, did anyone ever hear back from the OP about whether he found something he was interested in, or a rescue? Seems the thread got taken over by politics.


Im still here but the thread seems to have taken on a life
of its own. I didnt mean to start something so controversial
for my very first post here.

I should probably start a new thread...


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Why is the "standard" weight set where it is? Cannot there be prefectly healthy dogs 10 lbs above this "standard"?


Not to state the obvious, but there is no weight standard in the German Shepherd Dog, there is only a height standard. 

The height standard is set where it is set because it relates to the working ability of the dog. Max von Stephanitz, who created the breed, specifically wrote in his book that "giants are never nimble" and that overly large dogs were not suited to keeping up with the demands of work for which his breed was created. He has said over and over again that the breed is medium sized and should be medium sized.

There is a reason that so many police departments and other agencies that need working dogs are moving away from Shepherds and toward Malinois and Dutchies. On the whole, it's easier for them to find the smaller, faster, more agile, and more hard-biting Dutchies and Mals than it is for them to find suitable working German Shepherds.

Also, I think "Eva von Selah" is turning the thread to fit whichever argument she wants to make. When she wanted to promote large dogs, she posted pictures of her dog's dam and sire - dogs who are grossly over-sized AND overweight. Then when people commented on THOSE dogs and the breeding of THOSE grossly over-sized types of dogs, she started taking it personally and is now directing the thread to "how can you say MY dog is over-sized". Her female is very little over the standard, as opposed to the HUGE dogs in her pedigree everyone is commenting on. Two different things.

People are discussing the over-sized dogs, such as the dam and sire posted in Eva's previous post. Not dogs that are maybe an inch or two over. Apples and oranges. Dogs that turn out on the larger end of the standard come out of lots of litters. Including good, solid working litters. 

Actually, some working lines tend to produce dogs a little on the larger side because they're "sacrificing" (for lack of a better term) the ability to meet the height standard for all the other benefits of their breeding program, such as outstanding working ability. Brightelf's "Grimm" comes to mind - her breeder tends to produce dogs on the larger side, but in their case, it's NOT a case of "breeding for gentle, large, family pets" as it is with many breeders who breed PRIMARILY for size rather than ability. That's where the difference lies.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually, the FCI standard does include minimum and maximum weight. The American standard does not.

But yes, based on overall structure dogs who are within height standard can be a bit over standard in weight and that is a good healthy weight for the dog. But we're only talking a few pounds. Any dog that is 100+ but not over standard in height is most certainly overweight.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

XTOL said:


> Im still here but the thread seems to have taken on a life
> of its own. I didnt mean to start something so controversial
> for my very first post here.


Did you see the links I posted to GSD breeders in/near Illinois?


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## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> Did you see the links I posted to GSD breeders in/near Illinois?


Yes...thank you. One of the list I had already investigated.
The others I bookmarked for later scrutiny.

Even though I have not responded individually to
everyone I have read all the posts (at least those
directed toward me and/or containing relevant information)
and I appreciate the input...


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

*The truth about america*

In all reality , if someone is telling you that German lines are bigger, he/she is lying.
there is a reason why there are standards. But then Americans like everything bigger (Texas syndrome) so a lot of breeders breed their GSD to be big, the bigger the better, while ignoring what the real standards of the breed truly are.
just supersize ....:crazy:


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## mazza (Jun 11, 2010)

I have to agree with my peers that is way way to heavy for a GSD and very unhealthy, I have my reservations about that breeder talking about that kind of weight like its a good thing, but that is the beauty of checking out the forum you get the real deal. I am very sad to hear about your loss, hope you are keeping your chin up


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

XTOL-

Have you seen this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...p-finding-breeder-around-illinois-please.html ?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sorry we kinda hijacked your thread Xtol,,but it has been interesting reading for sure, and you did not start controversy,,) Hope you find that puppy of your dreams..


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Juta said:


> In all reality , if someone is telling you that German lines are bigger, he/she is lying.


My thought on this is it depends on what you mean by bigger. 

I think German lines are far and away bigger/heavier boned but American lines seem to be taller...which may or may not have something to do with the high withers you see on them.


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

*Not really*



JKlatsky said:


> My thought on this is it depends on what you mean by bigger.
> 
> I think German lines are far and away bigger/heavier boned but American lines seem to be taller...which may or may not have something to do with the high withers you see on them.


No a 160lbs GSD is not a healthy GSD
Check out the standard what GSD should be like


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Perhaps I should clarify. That was only in reference to the particular part that some people say German lines are larger. I think it just feels like it to some people because there are heavier boned.

You are absolutely correct. No GSD should be 160lbs. As the proud owner of 2 65lb dogs...I know bigger is not better. We raised English Mastiffs that were smaller than some of these purported Shepherds.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I cringe every time my bf's sister remarks how when she gets a GSD, she wants a german german shepherd because those are like 120-140 pounds and huge!!!!

Of course she also owns an expensive mutt.... aka a Labrodoodle, (that needs to loose about 10 pounds. So I can only do so much. lol

Have I seen large over sized GSDs that I like? Yep, but I wouldn't buy them from a breeder, I would get them from a rescue. Like this guy! :wub:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GSDSunshine said:


> Have I seen large over sized GSDs that I like? Yep, but I wouldn't buy them from a breeder, I would get them from a rescue. Like this guy! :wub:


I was actually just looking at an "oversized" GSD on the Chicagoland Shepherd Rescue website.
He is so handsome (and needs a home!!)--


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> I was actually just looking at an "oversized" GSD on the Chicagoland Shepherd Rescue website.
> He is so handsome (and needs a home!!)--


he is beautiful!!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Hope you find your perfect puppy.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Eva von Selah said:


> I didn't realize the working GSDs were expected to meet standards as they often don't, usually owing to coat or color.


I'm curious why you thought that working lines don't meet the standard due to coat or colour? The vast, vast majority of working lines have "normal" coats, and are blanket back, bi-colour, solid black or sable, all colours acceptable within the standard.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Juta said:


> In all reality , if someone is telling you that German lines are bigger, he/she is lying.


This is what MANY people who obviously don't have any knowledge of GSDs say. *That is exactly what I was told over and over*, so when I first started looking for a GSD, I was looking for a "big" one, but most important to me were (and _are_) health and intelligence. I think a lot of people will agree that you often can guage a lot of a dog's intelligence by their eyes and expression. When I looked at the XL GSD breeders, I didn't see that in their face, and when the personality description was, "Happy, friendly, easy-going, _mellow,"_ my face went....   "That's not right."

With only a TEENY bit of research, I discovered the truth about the dumb things I've been told all of these years, and started obsessively researching day and night about working lines, show lines, West German, East German, Czech, etc..

I'm obviously still learning though, haha. I've owned a couple of purebreds and a few shepherd mixes, and I had just never researched or looked into the breed more than my own experience, and the similar experiences of people I knew. Although we have considered other breeds of dogs (american bulldog, boerboel, rottweiler, hound), we always agree that GSDs are our favorite, and when it's finally time to get another dog (assuming we haven't already taken in a stray, haha), we usually always go for a GSD or mix. I would love to experiment with other breeds, but we just can't miss the opportunity to own another german shepherd. (Vincent is the exception.)

I've never owned a real working line GSD, and he's only a three month old pup, and already very different from any dog I've ever had. We've never done real training of any sort either, so this is all new to us. I'm really looking forward to this experience, and learning together. Really, it's about time. Ha.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I am speaking up in defense of these big dogs because my GSD is "giant" 125 lbs., straight back, tall, not heavy boned, not fat. He looks alot like the one posted by Chicagocainine from the rescue site. I didn't set out to get such a big guy. The breeder kept asking me "do you have any reservations about a dog that will be over 100 lbs.?" I told her, "no, it is the dog's temperment that is my main concern." I live in town, my yard borders my neighbors's driveway with their active teenagers and cockapoo, kids and dogs go down the alley all the time, on the otherside, there is my neighbor with his 3 year-old son and visiting lab. Sure, I have a 6 ft. chain link fence, but I didn't want to worry about my dog jumping over that fence to take on the neighborhood. When I walk my dog, I don't want to have to be concerned that he will be agressive to another dog or person. When he is in the back seat of my vehicle, and the stockboy is placing the groceries in the back end, I want to be able to open the back end of the vehicle, and not have to worry about my dog jumping out at him. I didn't want a GSD from Schutzhund parents, because I want a companion dog. not a dog with a high drive. My dog is not fearful or aggressive. He is intelligent, confident, and friendly. I met a lady from Germany when I was walking him. She said that is exactly the type of GSD that her father had on their farm. It turned out that my Sting was the biggest in the litter but the friendliest! Would I get another big GSD from a breeder who breeds only these big guys? Yes. Do I think that 160 lbs is too big? Of course. Do I think the only "true GSDs" are over 100 lbs? No, they are just the kind I prefer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What you wanted in a GSD can be found in GSD's bred to the standard as far as not reacting to the stock boy or "taking on the neighborhood" Good genetics and temperament can be found within the standard.
A GSD should not be a couch potato or laid back...if you want a dog like that, go with a breed that is.
To support a breeder that doesn't breed to the standard or for lower drive is one reason this breed is deteriorating.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I am 5'6 3/4. So of course a medium sized dog will look huge to me.lol. There was a beautiful male GSD at my shelter who won my heart(most shelter dogs do.) Well when standing on all 4 legs he s at my waist(once again I am 5'6 3/4) and when he stood on his hind legs he was taller than me. But he was at at a shelter, so I don't know his breeding or where he came from. He could have came from someone who got him from a breeder and had to give him up.

But I won't know. Most medium sized dogs such as GSDs and Dobermans will look tall to me.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Lulu weighed in at 65 pounds (female) last time I took her to the vet at 18 months old. I asked if she was underweight and he said that her back legs were very strong and she seemed in perfect health to him and that it's a great weight for her which won't affect her hips. I can't imagine a 160lb GSD!!!! Her diet consists of raw, home cooked as well as canned and kibble.


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