# Trying to learn how to spot fear agressive dogs vs. "protection dogs"



## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

ive been learning so much about fear agression thru this forum and dealing with it myself. I am trying to spot fear agression when people describe their dogs as "protective". it might be easy for most on this site, and i want to get to that level.
there was a craigslist post that i will link here, that i want to say this dog is fear agressive and i was wondering if i am correct or not. This particular ad, is being backed by a k9 training place. it even includes the training website.
so i guess this is where my problem lies, would a training facility know that it is fear agression or can this dog truly be a "protection" dog because wouldn't they know better?
it seems this trainer has trained in sch. ob and confirmation. and from the website seems to know whay more than me about dogs.

things i spoted: no good with dogs or children, will lash out at dogs and cannot be trusted with children
Great for a single woman or man
tried to bite me at first but warmed up to me
not good with strangers

i guess the thing that sticks out most to me is the dog seeing a real threat vs. a non threat.

thoughts? opinions? am i way off base and this could be a good dog, or am i right seeing this dog as a potential threat to someone who doesn't know any better and could potential bite someone in the future
i just want to learn how to spot "fear agressive" dogs, when people lable them "protection dogs"

German Shepherd for Protection

Available Dogs - Training K9s


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'm thinking this is a last-ditch effort to get a fear-aggressive rescue dog adopted. I briefly considered something similar with an extremely fear-aggressive foster dog of mine before deciding she was just too unstable and had to be put down.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Think of a dog as a person (bodyguard?). Wouldn't you prefer a person who is confident and non-aggressive but not afraid to stand up to a threat? Who would want a person that attacked another on the slightest (or no) provocation?
I would want a person that people can approach and interact with and who does not see a threat where none exists.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Think of a dog as a person (bodyguard?). Wouldn't you prefer a person who is confident and non-aggressive but not afraid to stand up to a threat? Who would want a person that attacked another on the slightest (or no) provocation?
> I would want a person that people can approach and interact with and who does not see a threat where none exists.


 
:thumbup: im not sure while simple statements like this open my eyes to something that should have been so easy to understand.
thank you for posting this, it just made everything 100x easier to understand.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

That is a fear-aggressive dog, and this guy ought to know better than to call this "protectiveness". Stable, confident dogs don't feel the need to be aggressive to everyone. Fear-aggression can also be an effect of undersocialization. True protectiveness comes from a place of confidence and discernment, and aggression is doled out only when truly needed. This dog is potentially very dangerous and should not be in the hands of anyone but an experienced trainer. If it is a socialization issue, it's possible she can be rehabilitated, but it sounds like the trainer has been trying to rehab her and she's still aggressive... so... yeah. Bad idea to rehome this dog, especially via Craigslist.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What's been mentioned is the easiest way to tell. If a dog freaks out at every moving thing, its not protection. If the dog goes after a little chihuahua aggressively, its not protection. A dog that is confident, and understands its abilities will protect when it feels the threat is large enough. Most times, protectiveness can be controlled. It is trained, these dogs aren't asked to make decisions on their own, they wait until their handler gives them the signal that says, "ok, now its dangerous." A dog that takes that decision into its own paws is clearly fearful and is probably the most dangerous dog to have.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm thinking that I can't comment because just by reading you just don't know. Everyone can read different things into what was actually written. Who knows, the dog might be way worse or way better in any new and different situation. I wouldn't judge a dog until I actually saw how it behaved. I've seen other posters on here end up with dogs that did much better with them then the previous owner. I will give the person that placed the ad credit for stating things that have been, could be, or are issues with the dog. She is a beautiful dog with probably not enough socialization.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If the dog goes after a little chihuahua aggressively, its not protection.


But if dog aggression is genetic, does that mean that DA dogs are all FA? Can FA apply to people, not dogs? Or dogs, not people?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Falkosmom said:


> But if dog aggression is genetic, does that mean that DA dogs are all FA? Can FA apply to people, not dogs? Or dogs, not people?


I'm pretty sure it can. A dog can be scared of just other dogs, or just humans, each dog has its own things that it is fearful of. Most dogs will run away when scared, but some will attack first so that they don't get attacked.

I just read the craigslist post and it sounds like what the person is trying to say is that this would be a great deterrent GSD. It's not going to offer true protection in the sense of a well trained PPD, but this dog will protect you from threats just by its presence. It will also bite more often than a regular GSD would, which could be a good thing if that's what your looking for. To me it just sounds like a huge liability as the dog can't really control itself.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Falkosmom said:


> But if dog aggression is genetic, does that mean that DA dogs are all FA? Can FA apply to people, not dogs? Or dogs, not people?


No, dog aggression and fear aggression are two totally different things. That's not what makes me question this dog. Plenty of stable dogs don't particularly like other dogs, or are prey-triggered by small dogs. 

The things that make me question the nerve strength of this dog are:

1) It's being sold as a protection dog, but all they talk about are the things it doesn't like and needs to be watched carefully around. Not a word is said about any actual protection training. 

2) $200 won't buy the nail-clippings off an actual PPD. 

3) Doesn't like kids. A solid, stable personal protection dog doesn't have to love children, but it shouldn't be untrustworthy around them either.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> But if dog aggression is genetic, does that mean that DA dogs are all FA? Can FA apply to people, not dogs? Or dogs, not people?


Or it can be if dog aggression is not genetic, does that mean FA can lead to DA? This is something that is close to is the glass half empty or half full. From what I see and read on this site, GSD's are not generally bred to be DA but they can have weak nerves which cause FA...so how closely related are the two?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

llombardo said:


> Or it can be if dog aggression is not genetic, does that mean FA can lead to DA? This is something that is close to is the glass half empty or half full. From what I see and read on this site, GSD's are not generally bred to be DA but they can have weak nerves which cause FA...so how closely related are the two?


DA and weak nerves don't necessarily go together. GSDs are supposed to be aloof, and right around puberty *a lot* of GSDs just stop liking dogs that aren't part of their immediate pack. However, our culture thinks all dogs are perpetual juveniles that need to play with each other in the dog park and bounce up to each other with a big ol' lick in the face. Put an aloof GSD that really doesn't care for other dogs in that mix and you've got a recipe for dog aggression. 

Kopper isn't aggressive to other dogs, but he's not friendly either. He's neutral towards them and wants them to be neutral towards him. A dog that bops up to him and sticks their nose in his face is going to be told on no uncertain terms to back off. But he doesn't start stuff with other dogs, doesn't run up to them, doesn't care about them at all so long as they leave him alone.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Emoore said:


> No, dog aggression and fear aggression are two totally different things.


How does one tell the difference?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Falkosmom said:


> How does one tell the difference?


If a dog is dog aggressive but not fear aggressive, he'l be aggressive towards other dogs but not anything else (men in funny hats, squealing children, people with umbrellas, etc). 
Dog aggression and fear aggression often overlap (the dog is aggressive towards other dogs because he fears them) but aren't the same. A dog can be aggressive towards other dogs and not fear them, or can be fear aggressive towards, say, certain types of people but ok with other dogs.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Or it can be if dog aggression is not genetic, does that mean FA can lead to DA? This is something that is close to is the glass half empty or half full. From what I see and read on this site, GSD's are not generally bred to be DA but they can have weak nerves which cause FA...so how closely related are the two?


 
I think FA can lead to DA, but I do not think that then it would be true DA but more dog reactivity. I would think this situation in the right hands can be more easily managed or controlled. Then again, DA is not my forte.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Emoore said:


> If a dog is dog aggressive but not fear aggressive, he'l be aggressive towards other dogs but not anything else (men in funny hats, squealing children, people with umbrellas, etc).
> Dog aggression and fear aggression often overlap (the dog is aggressive towards other dogs because he fears them) but aren't the same. A dog can be aggressive towards other dogs and not fear them, or can be fear aggressive towards, say, certain types of people but ok with other dogs.


At what age would one start to see DA?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Falkosmom said:


> At what age would one start to see DA?


:shrug: I would think puberty but I really don't know.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Example:

A puppy around 6 months of age that hasn't showed any signs of fear and is stable gets attacked by a dog. Said puppy decides he don't like any dogs going forward, is that DA based on FA or is only one or the other?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I would say that would be FA.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> I think FA can lead to DA, but I do not think that then it would be true DA but more dog reactivity. I would think this situation in the right hands can be more easily managed or controlled. Then again, DA is not my forte.


I think I think this too, but there would be a fine line between true DA and dog reactivity, because the end result on either would not be good.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Example:
> 
> A puppy around 6 months of age that hasn't showed any signs of fear and is stable gets attacked by a dog. Said puppy decides he don't like any dogs going forward, is that DA based on FA or is only one or the other?


Your example isn't genetic DA. It would be situational. Something happened to the dog and now it will defend itself against all things that happen to be like that one time.

My dog was "attacked" at 4 months old. He's still the friendliest dog around and will come up to any dog without any fear. That is strong nerve that overcame what happened to him and still kept him from not being DA or FA.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> I would say that would be FA.



If the problem is never solved would it ever just become DA or would it always be FA? I think that FA can be worked through and if in this situation its not able to be worked through then it would become DA, but at what point can one say it is now DA or its still FA.....I feel like I'm in some kinda math or science class..you now DA + FA= NG


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I would be curious what could be the end result that one could expect working with appropriate trainers and behaviorists for FA vs DA.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the only reason for the different classifications is to try and figure out what would work to fix that dog. When it comes to genetics, its helpful to know if its FA or DA because then you can focus on trying methods that have shown to work for that problem. In the example, you know exactly what caused the dog to become that way and you know what you need to do to fix it based off of that.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I feel like I'm in some kinda math or science class..you now DA + FA= NG


I think that should read NG squared!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DTS said:


> ive been learning so much about fear agression thru this forum and dealing with it myself. I am trying to spot fear agression when people describe their dogs as "protective". it might be easy for most on this site, and i want to get to that level.
> there was a craigslist post that i will link here, that i want to say this dog is fear agressive and i was wondering if i am correct or not. This particular ad, is being backed by a k9 training place. it even includes the training website.
> so i guess this is where my problem lies, would a training facility know that it is fear agression or can this dog truly be a "protection" dog because wouldn't they know better?
> it seems this trainer has trained in sch. ob and confirmation. and from the website seems to know whay more than me about dogs.
> ...


 
Think of it this way - A true "protection" dog is of no use if you couldn't trust him/her around people! 

It would be hard to protect anything if they are locked away because you can't trust them around people, pets or esp. kids!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

This is true, that is why I am questioning so much on the DA and reactivity, seems to be a lot of questions on this forum regarding this. 

I wonder how much a lack of proper socialization plays into DA/reactivity.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Your example isn't genetic DA. It would be situational. Something happened to the dog and now it will defend itself against all things that happen to be like that one time.
> 
> My dog was "attacked" at 4 months old. He's still the friendliest dog around and will come up to any dog without any fear. That is strong nerve that overcame what happened to him and still kept him from not being DA or FA.


Okay but genetically speaking GSD's are not bred to be DA, right? So if they aren't bred for this how can anyone say any GSD is DA and not FA, which either or can be based on genetics in some breeds but not all? If a GSD is showing signs of FA at a very young age, how is it determined not to be DA if the dogs aren't bred to be DA? Which in short brings me to the question...When a person says there GSD is DA, is that correct or is it FA? I only ask this because of what I have read and the German Shepherd Club I went to once had nothing but dogs that barked and lunged(some with muzzles on) and I want to go back but I don't want my dog like that...I don't even know if these dogs were barking and lunging at each other or the people


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I think the only reason for the different classifications is to try and figure out what would work to fix that dog. When it comes to genetics, its helpful to know if its FA or DA because then you can focus on trying methods that have shown to work for that problem. In the example, you know exactly what caused the dog to become that way and you know what you need to do to fix it based off of that.



So is DA and FA both genetic? Geez what a crap shoot, one can either end up with a dog that is born DA or weak nerves that causes FA...those really aren't good odds for a dog that ends up in the wrong home


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Okay but genetically speaking GSD's are not bred to be DA, right? So if they aren't bred for this how can anyone say any GSD is DA and not FA, which either or can be based on genetics in some breeds but not all? If a GSD is showing signs of FA at a very young age, how is it determined not to be DA if the dogs aren't bred to be DA? Which in short brings me to the question...When a person says there GSD is DA, is that correct or is it FA? I only ask this because of what I have read and the German Shepherd Club I went to once had nothing but dogs that barked and lunged(some with muzzles on) and I want to go back but I don't want my dog like that...I don't even know if these dogs were barking and lunging at each other or the people


GSDs are not bred to be DA or FA, but it happens.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree with the folks here. A trainer would know fear aggression versus protection. A friend of mine just had to rehome her Sch3 dog because it attacked a neighbors dog and the homeowners association went after her. Luckily through the club she was able to put her in a kennel where they train protection dogs so she will be well handled there and will not have the chance to attack other dogs.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

to answer the question as far as what age do you start seeing fear, my answer would be a good breeder that spends time with their pups should be able to see it very early. to what degree will depend on how it progresses with age. there are many signs to look for at young ages before the pup even leaves the breeder. tests like taking that pupy out of its element and see how it responds. even with the whole litter there, there are still signs if one knows what to look for.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this "It is trained, these dogs aren't asked to make decisions on their own, they wait until their handler gives them the signal that says, "ok, now its dangerous." A dog that takes that decision into its own paws is clearly fearful and is probably the most dangerous dog to have. "

xx needs to be corrected. The dog does not need to be directed . A stable dog takes a read on a situation and actively acts upon it . 
While you are tucked in bed , a bad guy comes through your window . Do you want a dog that needs you to roll out of bed , come downstairs and tell him - okay boy, now .
It is the quality of the decision . 
in a rush ... later 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 


__________________


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Observing and discerning the difference between DA and FA takes a very skilled eye. I've seen trainers who claim to work protection dogs have no idea they are working a fear aggressive dog. I've observed it with my very own eyes when interviewing a trainer. I even fished for answers on why a dog does this or that playing ignorant to make sure I wasn't just seeing things. Makes me really disappointed people are falsely advertising their knowledge or lack there of.
FA can manifest in different degrees and levels of, and often times a FA dog can be easier managed with higher thresholds. 
Then there are the fear aggressive dogs that have low thresholds and high defense with no confidence. These are the easiest to spot and most unpredictable and dangerous. The dog described in the OP sounds like it could be this. But really there is no way of telling without observing the dog. If I had to guess based on the information given I think it's very likely it's FA. The sad part is that dog should never be in the hands of someone inexperienced yet this trainer intends to make a quick buck calling it a protection dog. 

This is the kind of dog that will nip/seriously bite someone for no apparent reason, is a liability, and not a dog most can or want to deal with. This dog if off leash observing its "handler" being attacked would more likely run for cover than defend.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree a fearful dog will act upon fear. takes ALOT of work and training to make this type of dog understand your in charge and the dog needs to have trust in you. so building trust is so important. even then there are times un gaurded that this type of dog will just act upon fear.
the solid dog understands a real threat non threat situation.
the above is the worst senario, because the fearful dog can never be 100% trusted and for this dog its all clear black and white training, no in between and training the dog to understand there is no gray areas and needs to have clear non confusing commands and training that is straight forward every time. i know this type of dog well because i have one. its been a long road, with alot of progression but it will never be 100%.


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## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

hi i have a 4yr old western style sheppard great dog 145 lb male my grandson was over the other day and he is only 2 so i had fonzie by me and he was laying on the floor and i had ahold of his choker chain so he wouldnt knock little one over my 9 year old came over and laid on the floor beside him and put his arm around him to hug him and he jumped up out of the blue and bit him on the back of the head now what the heck was that has never did anything like that was is because i had ahold of choker chain or should i not have him around kids now i figured he felt cornered


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## waylon (Aug 24, 2011)

oops shepherd


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Waylon, you should start your own thread. You will get better
More informational responses that way.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Think of a dog as a person (bodyguard?). Wouldn't you prefer a person who is confident and non-aggressive but not afraid to stand up to a threat? Who would want a person that attacked another on the slightest (or no) provocation?
> I would want a person that people can approach and interact with and who does not see a threat where none exists.


Good post.


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## matthewm11 (Oct 18, 2011)

I hate that German Shepherds are sometimes marketed as breathing security systems. Its one thing to already want and be prepared for a larger dog and choose a german shepherd over, say, a golden r. for the intimidation factor but its a whole different issue to use personal protection as a motivating factor for getting a dog. I see depressed, miserable insecure and lonely dogs barking at anything that moves from behind their fence and I'm sure their owners think they have a good guard dog and did the right thing by not socialising there dog. 

On a similar note, I've actually noticed that when out walking my dog that rather than being a deterrent from being approached by strangers, she has drastically the opposite effect. I've lived in some pretty rough areas and always found that if you kept a low profile and minded your business people usually leave you alone. A dog will attract attention and sometimes the wrong attention. Sometimes mentally unstable people will look for any excuse for confrontation and I once had a homeless man yell and threaten me from across the street because he didn't like my dog looking at him.


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