# my bad - need advice



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

so a lady up the street has got a real nice GSD pup, she has started walking her new pup every morning straight past my house. 

my mutt pet is not used to seeing other dogs walking by my real long front fence as it is a rural road - my mutt who has the run of the whole property charges her pup and shows a lot of aggression from behind a secure fence. this upsets the pup and will cause conflict with the handler and pup - some could say this is what the pup has to learn to deal with in the real world. 

i know my dog is the problem but it is doing nothing illegal it is barking at another dog from behind a secure fence on its own property.

i am not going to lock my dog up and if i am at the same end of the property i can call her off but she will have charged down the pup before i am aware he is there.

any suggestions on how not to get the pup harrassed but not punish my dog for doing something i kinda got her for in the first place - eg alert dog and keep other dogs away sort of?

there is a ditch between the road and the fence so my dog physically cant get closer than say 8 meters, so its not a fence fight per se. if my dog got out she would absolutely try and kill the pup as she is dog aggressive, this is a different scenario tho and unlikely as i have a good fence which is well monitored and maintained and has a hot top and bottom wire spanned by dog mesh and an extra steel bottom wire to prevent digging in case the electrcity should go down which is unlikely as it is off the grid.

advice appreciatted.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, the pup will have to get used to it. However, I find it annoying when people have fences in front of their property and allow their dogs to do this. If the pup is young, it can cause problems as most young pups are just learning socialization and have some fear tendencies in them. If you can't or won't keep your dog from doing this, I'd suggest the handler keep distance between your fence and the pup... like on the other side of the road. When the dog is older, then it shouldn't have the same reaction. Hate to be rude, but a dog shouldn't be alerting because someone walked by your property. Our older mutt and my Pug do this, and it annoys me. My shepherd will simply watch. Now if you start approaching the fence, you'll likely get a different reaction from him. However, someone just walking past isn't a threat.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I agree with Jag. Some areas are also trying to pass "Dangerous Animals Acts." Your dog would be categorized under these laws for charging the fence (not trying to be rude or mean, I'm just being honest). 
Dakoda will usually watch with her head tilted to one side curiously. If she knows the dog, she will bark once pretty much to say "hey!" After that she continues whatever she was doing.
If they come in the yard, that's totally different (unless she knows them or they have friendly body language).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I agree with Jag. Some areas are also trying to pass "Dangerous Animals Acts." Your dog would be categorized under these laws for charging the fence (not trying to be rude or mean, I'm just being honest).
> Dakoda will usually watch with her head tilted to one side curiously. If she knows the dog, she will bark once pretty much to say "hey!" After that she continues whatever she was doing.
> If they come in the yard, that's totally different (unless she knows them or they have friendly body language).


Quick question, where did you read that the Dangerous Animal Act would include any kind of domesticated dog? Where I'm at almost every wild animal, including fish are in this act, but not dogs. Again I'm just curious.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Someone had posted a link to an article on Facebook, where certain areas are trying to extend it to domesticated animals. I'll try to find it... It was a while back though. Published on Yahoo! news.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While it is your property, you are likely to run into some liability. Frankly it is not good to let your dog aggress toward non-threatening people using a public thoroughfare. The right dog-walking individual might _slip _when startled by your aggressive dog, and injure herself on the walk in front of your house, and the right lawyer might now win a suit against you, but you might need to pay a lawyer of your own by the hour to protect yourself.

But barking at passersby is not only annoying to the person and dog barked at, and possibly a liability to yourself, it is a self-rewarding behavior your dog is engaging in, and it will increase and increase, and hopefully he will never manage to get loose, go over or under the fence. 

My advice would be to train the dog to stay in the back yard. Use an e-fence if necessary. Nothing wrong with having a bit of lawn in front that the dog cant go on. Your neighbors will appreciate it, and your dog will be perfectly happy in the back yard.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

yes i don't feel good the pup is being harrassed and getting bad associations or to spin it another way it might just be getting desensitised and gaining trust in it's leader???? some trainers would see this as a training experience but not so much in a puppy.

the easiest solution was to avoid the problem and lock my dog up for 15 minutes while the person went for their walk but their times change often.

yr not being rude i acknowledge how annoying this could be - i in fact face the problem all the time walking thru the burbs and don't moan about it, just trying to try do something for the pup owner who incidentally has not complained about the situation but i see the fear in the pup and don't want to be the cause so i am trying to fix it.

as i said a rural road and my dogs are both purchased for their genetic territorial aggression - seems a bit unfair if i all of a sudden change the rules, and i DO NOT believe a dog is smart enough to know friend from foe.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

a dog is as smart as it's owners training.



x11 said:


> yes i don't feel good the pup is being harrassed and getting bad associations or to spin it another way it might just be getting desensitised and gaining trust in it's leader???? some trainers would see this as a training experience but not so much in a puppy.
> 
> the easiest solution was to avoid the problem and lock my dog up for 15 minutes while the person went for their walk but their times change often.
> 
> ...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> *The right dog-walking individual might slip when startled by your aggressive dog, and injure herself on the walk in front of your house, and the right lawyer might now win a suit against you, but you might need to pay a lawyer of your own by the hour to protect yourself.*
> 
> that is so disgustingly modern.......but true
> 
> ...


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Dakoda is very territorial. I TRAINED her not to charge the fence, or dogs just walking by. She is not allowed to bark, charge, growl or tense up. She IS allowed to react when they ENTER our yard without my or Matt's permission.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> a dog is as smart as it's owners training.


 
nuh don't get it??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Dakoda is very territorial. I TRAINED her not to charge the fence, or dogs just walking by. She is not allowed to bark, charge, growl or tense up. She IS allowed to react when they ENTER our yard without my or Matt's permission.


 
so basically a well trained dog will not react except maybe for a glance unless the stranger has enetered the property???


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Generally. At least, it has worked that way for everyone in my family, my bf's family, and for me.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I am of a different opinion. Your yard your house your dog. The Shepherds handler should stay away! I'm not going to yell at my dogs for doing what they are supposed to do and protect my property. Some idiot walks her golden across the front of my fence and then down the side. BTW the side is private property and not hers! She walks the dog right by my fence and not in the street... (so my property not public access) I have 5 acres so this is a lot of area. I actually do call my dogs off because they could jump the fence if they knew they could jump it. But really there are days I'd just like to scream at the dumb bimbo. I wouldn't walk my dogs anywhere in this neighborhood as their are loose strays, coyotes and the guy down the street who shoots dogs.... Frankly its not safe. Been wondering who to report her too.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I am of a different opinion. Your yard your house your dog. The Shepherds handler should stay away! I'm not going to yell at my dogs for doing what they are supposed to do and protect my property. Some idiot walks her golden across the front of my fence and then down the side.* BTW the side is private property and not hers! She walks the dog right by my fence and not in the street... (so my property not public access)* I have 5 acres so this is a lot of area. I actually do call my dogs off because they could jump the fence if they knew they could jump it. But really there are days I'd just like to scream at the dumb bimbo. I wouldn't walk my dogs anywhere in this neighborhood as their are loose strays, coyotes and the guy down the street who shoots dogs.... Frankly its not safe. Been wondering who to report her too.


 This is a different situation. She is ON your property. 
Once someone is ON my property, Koda is free to protect her turf to her heart's content (if Matt or myself do not tell her it's alright). But if they are on the sidewalk or the road, her barking/charging would just be unacceptable behavior. And could get her reported as a nuisance dog.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

seems a bit harsh if the dogs are being walked on leash, assuming they stick to public property???

most people here are rural and it is rare to see an owner going for a leisurely walk down the street with a dog, joggers/bike riders in lycra are even rarer, they would prolly just get beat down by the local rednex.

if dogs have to be moved here they are tied up in the back of a truck and transported from point A to point B and released. not many pets in the traditional sense of the word, so seeing a handler power walking her pup is a picture my dog is new to, thats why i am not looking to corrections.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

New or not, your dog is going to escalate more and more. 

How are you going to feel if she gets past the fence and mauls that puppy?
Or if you go out to make her hush one day for any reason, and she's so into it that she redirects her frustrations into a bite on you?
I understand she's never seen it. But that's no excuse for aggressive behavior. JMO.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> This is a different situation. She is ON your property.
> Once someone is ON my property, Koda is free to protect her turf to her heart's content (if Matt or myself do not tell her it's alright). But if they are on the sidewalk or the road, her barking/charging would just be unacceptable behavior. And could get her reported as a nuisance dog.


 
personally i find it cruel and stupid when people get certain working breeds as "alert dogs" - the reason they say they are getting the dog in the first place - eg herders, LGD's....and within a month the dog has to live with a bark collar on WTF - did not realise the alert dog might alert???
then its they just want the dog to alert on the burgular, rapists...etc like show me the training program for that discrimination - imo opinion it is untrainable to start with, my dogs are aggressive and territorial period, they were bred that way, the breeder promised me they would be that way, i bought them for that reason so i'm not gonna blame the dogs for it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

x11 said:


> seems a bit harsh if the dogs are being walked on leash, assuming they stick to public property???
> 
> *most people here are rural and it is rare to see an owner going for a leisurely walk down the street with a dog*, joggers/bike riders in lycra are even rarer, they would prolly just get beat down by the local rednex.
> 
> ....so seeing a handler power walking her pup is a picture my dog is new to, *thats why i am not looking to corrections*.



Well you should be. A person has the right to walk down a public road without being charged by a dog. I live in a rural area also and it's pretty much family surrounding us. But I was furious with Jax the day she charged into the road at a dog and made two little kids cry. I don't like to have dogs charging me when I walk and I don't want my dogs charging people.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

If you are not willing to correct your dog or train them not to charge, they will.
Simple as that. 
There is nothing that will change the behavior if you don't act.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

x11 said:


> seems a bit harsh if the dogs are being walked on leash, assuming they stick to public property???
> 
> most people here are rural and it is rare to see an owner going for a leisurely walk down the street with a dog, joggers/bike riders in lycra are even rarer, they would prolly just get beat down by the local rednex.
> 
> if dogs have to be moved here they are tied up in the back of a truck and transported from point A to point B and released. not many pets in the traditional sense of the word, so seeing a handler power walking her pup is a picture my dog is new to, thats why i am not looking to corrections.


There is a big disconnect here between those of us who are rural and those in bigger areas. People don't seem to understand that there are no dog laws, bark laws and very few other animal laws in rural counties the ones in place are not enforced because there is no one to enforce them. Seems like the shepherd owner is pretty clueless about the area just like the golden owner is for mine. I wish I had a good suggestion for you but I don't know what to do either.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Well you should be. A person has the right to walk down a public road without being charged by a dog. I live in a rural area also and it's pretty much family surrounding us. But I was furious with Jax the day she charged into the road at a dog and made two little kids cry. I don't like to have dogs charging me when I walk and I don't want my dogs charging people.


Michelle, the dog is on his property. It is charging the fence doing his job. Out here you don't want to train a dog not to charge the fence because it is your deterant. Keep away! Otherwise next thing you know some drunk or drugged idiot is climbing the fence or trying to dig up the fence to for scrap metal. Scrappers have taken everything here that isn't tied down or protected. Where we lived before it was the illegal workers... They would get drunk and whoo boy you didn't want they tearing up your property. Big scary dogs are what keep you safe without having to use your guns.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Charging the fence when someone is merely walking by is not a job, it's a bad habit. A dog can protect a place without charging the road when a person is walking on the road. The people aren't attempting to enter his property, they are walking on a public road. I live in the middle of nowhere and I'll stand by what I said...a person should be able to walk on a public road that they pay taxes to maintain without being harassed by a charging dog.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Well you should be. A person has the right to walk down a public road without being charged by a dog. I live in a rural area also and it's pretty much family surrounding us. But I was furious with Jax the day she charged into the road at a dog and made two little kids cry. I don't like to have dogs charging me when I walk and I don't want my dogs charging people.


 
did you read the bit about my fence and a 8m (wide) ditch between my fence and the road?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x11 said:


> personally i find it cruel and stupid when people get certain working breeds as "alert dogs" - the reason they say they are getting the dog in the first place - eg herders, LGD's....and within a month the dog has to live with a bark collar on WTF - did not realise the alert dog might alert???
> then its they just want the dog to alert on the burgular, rapists...etc like show me the training program for that discrimination - imo opinion it is untrainable to start with, my dogs are aggressive and territorial period, they were bred that way, the breeder promised me they would be that way, i bought them for that reason so i'm not gonna blame the dogs for it.


What a good alert dog should do is alert. Not for the ordinary pedestrian walking along the street or sidewalk, not for squirrels or dogs, but for anything out of the ordinary, or someone leaving public lands and entering your property. Once the owner hears the barking, the dog is given a quiet command, and the dog remains alert but quiet, having trust in his owner, that the owner has it covered. 

While this could be a genetic trait -- guarding behavior, being trainable to understand its own territory, etc. 

Most of the time when breeders tell prospective owners that the dogs will alert, guard, etc, it means the dogs are wacky-reactive, which is scared out of their skin at anything that moves so they bark their fool heads off trying to get the big bad something to go away so that it doesn't kill them. 

While I think dogs sometimes do take a dislike to an ordinary person, dogs can be very discerning and can differentiate between someone who is a threat, and someone who is not a threat. I guess if I had a dog on the job so to speak, I wouldn't want to have to rip my hands out of the dishwater and rush outside to meet a threat every time someone is walking down the road. 

My neighborhood is also rural. No sidewalks, and the cars go a minimum of the speed limit which is 55mph. So walking down our road is not exactly for the faint of heart. And since the neighbors have loose dogs, walking dogs down the road is really not typical. If someone does walk down the road, and they do -- people walking for the health, the Amish folk walk between their home and their folks' house about half a mile down the road -- if a car comes around the curve, the walkers must step off the road onto someone's property or become road pizza. 

I have no problem with people walking there. 

I guess if your property is fenced, people should stay off. Within reason, people should stay off if it is not fenced. Without a fence being there and visible, people should not expect to see a dog charging at them. My back yard is fenced, my front yard, open. To the front and the side, I use privacy fencing. To the back (over the ravine) I own the land up to the middle of the river, I have horse fencing there, that the dogs can see through. If someone is down in the ravine, I want to know about it. So I am perfectly happy to have my dogs bark at anyone going down there. But I don't want them to sound off every time the neighbors want to use their yards.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

x11 said:


> there is a ditch between the road and the fence so my dog physically cant get closer than say 8 meters, so its not a fence fight per se. if my dog got out she would absolutely try and kill the pup as she is dog aggressive, this is a different scenario tho and unlikely as i have a good fence which is well monitored and maintained and has a hot top and bottom wire spanned by dog mesh and an extra steel bottom wire to prevent digging in case the electrcity should go down which is unlikely as it is off the grid.
> 
> advice appreciatted.


I have a FA DA dog. They can be trained to not charge the fence and bark at anyone passing by. People and their dogs have a right to walk on a public road without being harassed by an aggressive dog. Alert barks once someone enters the property is what would be more appropriate. Again, even DA dogs can be trained for this. 

Since from the sound the behavior has become ingrained, satisfying to the dog, it will take longer to change this bad habit. You will need to stay on top of the dog, be willing to train and correct, and if needed reconfigure your fencing to keep your dog to the back yard.

This isn't training for the puppy, instead it is bad experiences that can negatively affect the puppy.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

x11 said:


> did you read the bit about my fence and a 8m (wide) ditch between my fence and the road?


A determined dog will not stop at the ditch once they get out. 
The longer this goes on the more determined your dog is likely going to become.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> There is a big disconnect here between those of us who are rural and those in bigger areas. People don't seem to understand that there are no dog laws, bark laws and very few other animal laws in rural counties the ones in place are not enforced because there is no one to enforce them. Seems like the shepherd owner is pretty clueless about the area just like the golden owner is for mine. I wish I had a good suggestion for you but I don't know what to do either.


This is very true about how, even if there are laws, no one enforces them. However, I like it when people go out and train or exercise their dogs. Makes me feel guilty for not training or exercising mine enough. It makes me very happy when people use leashes, unlike my brother's kid who was riding her bike down my curvy 55mph road with her dog loose and tagging along. Whatever. I do not want to discourage dog training, dog walking, responsible use of leashes, etc. There is a leash law in my state, and that includes rural counties. But it just isn't enforced unless there is an incident. And even then, even if someone calls, they do not do anything until something drastic happens, like someone shoots someones dog, or some dog mauls a kid. Then there are news stories, and people try to get certain breeds banned, etc.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

x11 said:


> as i said a rural road and my dogs are both purchased for their genetic territorial aggression - seems a bit unfair if i all of a sudden change the rules, and i DO NOT believe a dog is smart enough to know friend from foe.


Is your dog a GSD?

GSDs are quite definitely smart enough to know friend from foe, as are most other dogs. There are a few breeds that were selected to essentially view everything outside the immediate family categorically as foes, in which case I'd agree that you would have a hard time training it out. But otherwise, most dogs can definitely learn to recognize friend from foe. You just have to be there to introduce the people who are "friends", it takes a little time, but is worth it for the peace that ensues, IMO.

If your dog is simply aggressing over the other dog, that's not so easy. If he's DA, I don't really know a safe and easy solution other than putting your dog in the house when your neighbor is walking her pup. I do think your neighbor should be able to walk in peace. Are you usually home when she walks by, and can you simply call your dog off and bring him inside for a little while?

Personally, if I was the person walking their pup, I would simply try to go a different route so as not to rile your dog and scare my pup... unless it's the only way there is.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Charging the fence when someone is merely walking by is not a job, it's a bad habit. A dog can protect a place without charging the road when a person is walking on the road. The people aren't attempting to enter his property, they are walking on a public road. I live in the middle of nowhere and I'll stand by what I said...a person should be able to walk on a public road that they pay taxes to maintain without being harassed by a charging dog.


 I agree. I suggesst you consider it a training opportunity. That's what I did. My backyard fence borders on the alley. Mollie, cockapoo next door well bark at anything that goes by blocks away. My Sting had to learn - when the neighbors and their dogs are in their own yard - I don't want to hear about it. When cars and dogs go down the alley - he had to be quiet. If people and dogs are walking down the sidewalk, he can watch but that's it. If Mollie barks that doesn't mean he can. What I did was to purposely go out with him, first I had him on the leash when I saw someone coming. I grabbed his tugs which he loves. Outside in the yard we went - of course, he tried to lunge -not allowed- he had to heel, directly to the fence then sharp turn then sit/stay - then the reward - a game of tug. With practice - he could do the routine off leash. I then practiced with the mailman, UPS truck. A warning bark that the mailman is coming - fine - then he had to sit and watch. Good treats were the incentive for that. My view is that I know that Sting is protective , but he needed to learn control and not to act like a bully. That training helped him in other situtations - at the vet when another dog comes out suddenly or when we go on neighborhood walks - if a child comes running down the street.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Charging the fence when someone is merely walking by is not a job, it's a bad habit. A dog can protect a place without charging the road when a person is walking on the road. The people aren't attempting to enter his property, they are walking on a public road. I live in the middle of nowhere and I'll stand by what I said...a person should be able to walk on a public road that they pay taxes to maintain without being harassed by a charging dog.


There is rural east and rural west and a huge difference between the too.. There shoudn't be people on my road it is a non-maintained dirt road that dead ends at the RR tracks. As I've said before we have coyotes, stray dogs and people with guns. It is not safe. Total population is 4000 
Out of that only about 2000 have jobs. Per capita income is 16,576. 10.8% if our population is below the poverty line. I don't know where OP is from but if it is like here he wants his dogs to look scary. People we know, know our dogs and our dogs will let them in no problem. Others need to stay away.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree.. if a 'breeder' is selling dogs with the draw of 'they are aggressive', then you've likely just paid for a highly reactive dog that will probably run from any real danger. A well bred dog can tell a friend from foe, and won't just go off all crazy after anything it sees. Of course, training and socializing play a part in this, but my guy came not reacting like that. I'm keeping him that way with training and socialization. He was bred and raised in the country with many other dogs. Dogs that are personal protection trained. He sees no reason to go off barking at everything because the dogs he was raised around didn't do that. Many people that have highly reactive dogs believe they have good guard dogs. They're free to believe whatever they want, but most of the time it's just not true. They see everything as a threat, they turn into fear based bullies and harass anything that's NOT inside their fence. Have a couple big guys come in and wave their arms at them, and they'll likely turn tail and run.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

have enjoyed the training discussion in its own right, my solution was kind of planned before i posted which will be simply to subdivide my fence which was always on the plan actually. the dog will not be able to have access to the road boundary unless i am out with it. not really a "training" solution but a management solution.

i think some have too much faith in their own training, or maybe they are just good trainers and i'm not. the one time yr dog screws up could be critical and i don't think dogs and training are that bomb-proof off the field just my opinion, i don't see that many people actually abandoning forever there, leashes, muzzles, collars...etc to be honest.

sorry if i did not respond individually to everyone, and no dog in question is not a gsd, i do have a gsd tho.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Sorry if someone else has said this, but my internet is dragging and I finally just had to skip to the last page.

Regardless of it being your property and you and your dog being in the "right", it is a very detrimental reaction you are allowing your dog to embrace. Fence aggression can easily become actual physical aggression if the activity continues and the pup is allowed to continue acting like this. I allow my dogs to alert me to approaching people, dogs, vehicles and the like but once I tell them to let it go, that I AM IN CHARGE of the situation they are fine with it and should be. Allowing the pup to "chase away" the offender (even though the offender is actually just continuing on it's walk) gives it a false sense of power. And then, shoot, there they are the next day, walking by again, the nerve! Well after a few dozen iterations of this many dogs (who don't receive alternate, correct instruction) will take the activity to the next level, grabbing the fence by the teeth, that type of thing. So just imagine what the dog will think if it ever gets the chance to actually get at the other dog, and believe me it almost ALWAYS happens, by accident of course, but when you are paying for a few hundred in vet bills what does that matter. 
Then this behavior can drift over to kids, the UPS guy, whatever, because the dog is "doing its job". At least that's the job it thinks it should do because no one taught it what it's job really was or wasn't. 
Personally I like for my dogs to not perceive some cute little mix on the other side of the fence a threat, I like for my dog to be able to understand a threat from a non-threat. If that's what you got the dog for then uphold you end of the deal and teach the dog the skills to do that job. 
A reactive dog is acting out of fear and will not protect anything but it's own hide. 
Socialize the dog and teach it some manners and the skills to ascertain good from bad and you will have a happy dog that will follow you to the ends of the earth, your neighbors will thank you, too .


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Jag bit off topic??


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

x11 said:


> Jag bit off topic??


No. I believe Jag was responding to your comment about the fact that your breeder guaranteed the dog would be aggressive...



> personally i find it cruel and stupid when people get certain working breeds as "alert dogs" - the reason they say they are getting the dog in the first place - eg herders, LGD's....and within a month the dog has to live with a bark collar on WTF - did not realise the alert dog might alert???
> then its they just want the dog to alert on the burgular, rapists...etc like show me the training program for that discrimination - imo opinion it is untrainable to start with, *my dogs are aggressive and territorial period*, they were bred that way, *the breeder promised me they would be that way*, i bought them for that reason so i'm not gonna blame the dogs for it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think there's an issue with a dog charging a fence if that's what you want it to do. It's your property, do what you want on it. Just be ready for some stupid liability that might come up from it.

But...I think you have very low expectation of training/dogs. Might be your experience, or just no need for it but I can tell you that dogs are just fine/bomb proof off the training field. I have great control of my dog off the training field, and although I'd always keep him on leash anyways, I go hiking in less populated areas and easily get him back to me, get him to drop/sit/wait. You can definitely teach a dog pretty much anything you set your mind to, it might take time and might not be their "natural" reaction (like your dog is exhibiting) but you can still do it.

I'm on the side of, watch but don't react, but then again my dog naturally does this. He just watches situations and if something were to come up, I wouldn't really want to be between him and the problem. Your dogs have learned to react and bark, since you haven't corrected it, they're going to keep doing it. I like the solution you have chosen, easy and makes you happy, makes your dogs happy, probably will make the lady with the puppy happy.

You've already cared more than I ever would have...if you have a problem walking by my dog...find another route in my opinion. I don't believe I should have to appease other people, especially those that choose to walk by my property.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

bocron said:


> Regardless of it being your property and you and your dog being in the "right", *it is a very detrimental reaction you are allowing your dog to embrace.*
> 
> hence my posting the problem to look for a solution
> 
> ...


 
answer in quotes


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Just curious as to what breed of dog we are talking about here. Not the GSD puppy but the dog behind the fence?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> No. I believe Jag was responding to your comment about the fact that your breeder guaranteed the dog would be aggressive...


 
not buying into that my dog is tougher than yours debates, pretty much know what i got in my yard and thats all i care about.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

When people attack, or have bad intentions, usually they have increased levels of adrenaline and other hormones. Dogs have a knack for picking up on these increases that people do not. Its the reason why dogs can pick up on seizures before they happen...hormones in the air that people can't smell. Dogs are very very very good at picking up on body language and how you feel, and they react based on that feeling.

So yes...dogs can differentiate between bad and good. You can also train your dog to only react if something is actually ON your property...not just near it. This will tell them if you cross this fence you'll have a problem, but if you stay where you are, I'm not going to bother you.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

OP- I have to ask... How do you believe personal protection dogs become such? 
It is all in TRAINING. A true PPD does not simply attack anything. They KNOW the difference. They notice when something is different/out of the ordinary. They recognize when something isn't right. Some programs train the dog not to do anything until the handler instructs them to, as well as not to release until told to. That is also how police dogs are TRAINED. 

Training can do a lot...

Also, how exactly was I saying my dog is better than yours where you quoted? Because all I said was that Jag was responding to YOUR comment about having the breeder guarantee an aggressive dog. Nothing about mine was mentioned there.


> not buying into that my dog is more bad-ass than yours debates, pretty much know what i got in my yard and thats all i care about.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x11 said:


> not buying into that my dog is more bad-ass than yours debates, pretty much know what i got in my yard and thats all i care about.


opcorn:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Just curious as to what breed of dog we are talking about here. Not the GSD puppy but the dog behind the fence?


 
here are my dogs reacting to two strange dogs inside my fence that i introduced them to. my two are not the two BC's.

this was videoed as a test, it is several months old now.





 

my gsd was not 12mo here


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Regardless of our obvious disagreements... Both of your dogs are very pretty. The "mutt" looks similar to a Catahoula one of my uncles had once.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

> i am still dubious that this can actually be done to any degree by any dog/trainer, keep hearing about it tho, i just don't believe it.
> 
> - please people show me how this discrimination is done anywhere except the internet.


Your disbelief is in itself shocking to me, as I never even had to question whether my dog could discriminate friend from foe. They just did it naturally. But I trained, socialized, and worked extensively with all my dogs. I wonder if you are new to training, or you've had a different breed than GSDs, or a totally different relationship with your dogs than most of us here.

GSDs and most other dogs do have discrimination. As I said, there are a few breeds that are bred to regard EVERYONE as a foe, but aside from that, dogs can tell when someone is up to no good, and when someone is minding their own business. Exactly HOW they know is still an open question; we know a person's body chemistry changes when charged with adrenaline, and it's likely the dog can smell it. They can tell much by the way a person is moving, too. But this discrimination has to be learned; dogs must be socialized to humans--as many different ones as possible--to learn which people are a potential threat, and which aren't. 

Yes, there are some dogs that are aggressive toward everything no matter what and cannot safely be taken into public, but this is a temperament issue, and not the norm (unless we are talking about a Fila Brasiliero). 

But aside from all this, barking at the fence is pretty normal behavior and not indicative of any behavior problem per se. The problem here is that he's scaring the neighbor's dog. I think that if you could simply call the dog off when you are there to do so, that could alleviate the issue.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, I was responding the the OP's statements.. exactly as quoted. Has nothing to do with having a bad ass dog. It has to do with the statements you made about your breeder, why you bought the dog, and what's really behind that aggression. My guy is a pup. He certainly THINKS he's a bad ass, I laugh at that right now. When he's trained, no one will be laughing at that. You can train your dogs to be discerning and true 'protection' dogs also. Having a dog barking at the fence isn't true protection. It's a false sense of security, unless the intruder is another dog.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Your disbelief is in itself shocking to me, as I never even had to question whether my dog could discriminate friend from foe. They just did it naturally. But I trained, socialized, and worked extensively with all my dogs. I wonder if you are new to training, or you've had a different breed than GSDs, or a totally different relationship with your dogs than most of us here.
> 
> GSDs and most other dogs do have discrimination. As I said, there are a few breeds that are bred to regard EVERYONE as a foe, but aside from that, dogs can tell when someone is up to no good, and when someone is minding their own business. Exactly HOW they know is still an open question; we know a person's body chemistry changes when charged with adrenaline, and it's likely the dog can smell it. They can tell much by the way a person is moving, too. But this discrimination has to be learned; dogs must be socialized to humans--as many different ones as possible--to learn which people are a potential threat, and which aren't.
> 
> ...


The other issue (as per the OP) is that this dog is dog aggressive, and will attack other dogs. When I had my 2 previous shepherds, I always said that an intruder might be able to 'get' (kill) one (which would be my male) but not both, because my female launched her attacks deadly silent. The most vicious attacks I've ever seen, and she never made a sound.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Regardless of our obvious disagreements... Both of your dogs are very pretty. The "mutt" looks similar to a Catahoula one of my uncles had once.


thanks, what disagreements??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They're _oblivious_ disagreements!!!

Sorry, I just had too.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Freestep said:


> *Your disbelief is in itself shocking to me...*
> 
> 
> i call your shock and it raise it one incredulity.
> ...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> They're _oblivious_ disagreements!!!
> 
> Sorry, I just had too.


 
i disagree, we have no disagreements......agreed?



insert smiley face


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x11 said:


> i disagree, we have no disagreements......agreed?
> 
> 
> 
> insert smiley face


Oh, I bet there are many things we would disagree on, nothing wrong with that. It would be wrong to have no disagreements. Some weird boring utopia.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

but if i agree that there are things we can disagree on where does that leave me logically...in agreement or not????


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I think x11 is bringin' a lil spice.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Charging the fence when someone is merely walking by is not a job, it's a bad habit. A dog can protect a place without charging the road when a person is walking on the road. The people aren't attempting to enter his property, they are walking on a public road. I live in the middle of nowhere and I'll stand by what I said...a person should be able to walk on a public road that they pay taxes to maintain without being harassed by a charging dog.


I agree. 

To the OP, I'm confused as to why you bothered to post on here?
It seems like you are only wanting someone here to validate your dog's bad habits, and that's not likely going to happen. 

I feel badly for the person wanting to take their new puppy out for a walk and being harassed by your dog, even if it's from behind a fence. 

I think warning barks are ok if someone is approaching your home, but your dog IS intelligent enough to differentiate between someone passing by your house, and someone who's actually approaching it.

ETA: I think the vast majority of dogs who behave like this are actually not great protection dogs. They react out of fear, weak nerves - and this is not the type of dog who should ever be used to any kind of protection - they are a liability.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i posted to get some perspectives, as always on forums you get a range of opinions which is a good thing. it is not possible to agree or disagree with evryone when you get different opinions.

my decision of what to do with my dog is mine alone as are the consequences.

you might feel badly for the harrassed pup - so do i, thats why its even a problem for me and why i posted.

not hard to go to any suburban block and get harrassed by dozens of dogs any given night in any town in any country - not the slightest problem at all for any of those people.

you miss the bit where i said i will be subdividing my fence to allow no direct access to the road?? hope that pleases you.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

x11 said:


> i just think dogs are fallible (like humans actually) and that anyone who assumes a dog isn't is plain negligent.


Who said dogs aren't fallible?

All I'm saying is that they CAN recognize a threat from a non-threat. 

It does take exposing the dog to all different types of people in all different types of situations, so that they can learn to discriminate. This is best done as young as possible, basically from birth on up.

Now, when a dog is on his own property and a stranger with a strange dog walk by the fence, he's going to bark. That's just territorial behavior, but it's also self-rewarding because every time he charges and barks at the fence, the "intruder" keeps on walking and leaves the area. In the dog's mind, he succeeded in chasing off the "intruder", and so is made to feel stronger. 

It's exactly the same scenario as the mailman. Every day, the mailman walks up to the property, the dog barks, and the mailman leaves. The dog thinks it was his barking that scared the man away. 

Basically, this same scenario is enacted when a pup is started in personal protection training. The pup's confidence is built when he thinks that his barking caused a potential threat to retreat.

Dogs that are fearful, undersocialized, or lacking in confidence may learn to use aggression as a "crutch" when they feel threatened. After all, it's always made those nasty "intruders" go away, so any time he is afraid or uncertain, aggression is likely to become his default response. This is a dangerous situation that can put you in a position of liabiity.

Even stable, well-adjusted dogs will bark at the fence, but should be able to be called off easily, introduced to the person, and thereby assured that there is no real threat. If the dog is unstable, fearful, or simply undersocialized or undertrained, he may not take your word for it that the person is harmless. 

If it is your cur dog that is doing the charging and barking at the fence, it is understandable, as curs are notoriously distrustful of strangers. I believe this trait is valued by breed fanciers, as a good hunting dog is a valuable animal. While hounds are friendly and trusting and would allow themselves to be stolen, curs are not, and would no sooner go quietly with a stranger than let their leg be cut off. 

While this may be a bonus for rural folk, this is not a temperament that lends itself well to city or suburban life where people are living packed closely together. It sounds like your neighbor may be a transplant from the city. Have you met or spoken to her? It might be worth your while just to let her know that you're concerned about her pup and don't want her to be frightened, and that you're taking measures to keep your dog from charging the fence. It's always a good idea to keep neighbor relations on a peaceful, even keel whenever possible.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks for comments and yes the cur can get a bit nutso around strangers and yes it is fear based/genetic mistrust presumably. she is not a ppd dog, she is an alert dog at best. but yes i do want her to alert, then run like **** if it escalates.

the herder is a different dog all together; bred different, looks different, is different. 

i would argue however that all suspicion/fight.... is well rooted in fear and all dogs are the same that way.

here is what my pregnant cur deals with a snake in the place, doubt you would do this twice with yr herder, edited video;


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

wow how many houses do we pass with a nasty dog behind the fence when we go for walks? Usually for me the dog is NEVER behind the fence its tied out in the front lawn and comes charging up to the side walk trying to snap at us.

I can't belive how serious people take a dog behind a fence out in the country when people are trying dogs out in front yards all over that go ape crazy when u walk down the side walk. Forget tying many just sit out on the lawns with no leash even lol

The woman walking her pup shepherd must like it she keeps walking by his fence or something maybe shes doing it on purpose who knows.

I would not worry about it considering the billions of other dogs in the city and close to side walks we have to deal with non stop. 

Also How bad can this dog be ? It sure looks ike it accepted a puppy shepherd into its home and was playing with 2 strange border collies also.

We choose where we walk, we can walk in front of a nasty dog inches away from its face on a side walk or we go some place else. If it scars the puppy that is the owners fault because there are millions of dogs like his just waiting to bark snarl at a sweet puppy or small dog walking by.


LIke the other poster said he can do whatever he wants with his dog and his dog can act however it wants on his property as long as it doesnt get out and hurt a dog. 

Why are people also giving him advice on gsd's for this issue when this dog is nothing like a gsd?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Pets4life, the old saying "2 wrongs don't make a right" . Yes, it isn't right for people to leave their dogs loose in the front yard or tied so they reach the sidewalk. But that doesn't mean that a dog charging up to a fence that borders or is close to the sidewalk is right either. The point people have been saying, myself included, is that allowing a dog to do that is not good canine citzenship behavior. It is allowing the dog to engage in destructive behavior that is frustrating for the both the dog and the person walking his dog. Also when the dog is not contained by the fence, he will then act out his aggression because he has not been trained. The OP has decided to put up another fence that will not allow his dogs access to the front. That is a workable solution for him, but it is not practical for many people who have the problem with their fenced in yards and their dogs. The advice given many mention GSDs but it is applciable to all dogs who engage in this type of behavior.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

pets4life said:


> Why are people also giving him advice on gsd's for this issue when *this dog is nothing like a gsd?*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Isn't he a dog?


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## martinaa (Jan 5, 2012)

I like the OP's practical solution but this thread seems to have been more philosophical then practical from the very start. Seems to me the obvious solution would have been for the lady with the puppy to walk on the other side of the road; but maybe traffic makes that dangerous. Finding a different route may not have been possible considering that it is in a rural area.

Anyway, I think the issue is more one of manners then strict legal rights. This situation sounds like the canine equivalent of my teenagers sitting near the edge of my property line; verbally bullying and yelling threats at the 9 year old walking by on the public right of way. They might even be able to keep it within the definition of protected free speech but there is no doubt that I'd still knock their heads together if I caught them doing it.


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