# Opinions/experience with pitbulls in IPO?



## Anubis_Star

I'm not talking about these giant bully mutts you see labeled as pitbulls in every shelter across the country. I'm talking about REALY adba APBT. 

Won't be ready for my next sport dog for another year or two, however I've always loved pit bulls and recently I found a breeder that has really intrigued me. I've only ever owned male dogs so knew my next dog would be female regardless, especially since I think they can be fun little spitfires. I love their dogs. The look, the build. ALL are worked and shown. ADBA conformation, weight pull, wall climbs, agility, hunting, iron dog competitions, bite sports (although from their videos I don't know how much they're ACTUALLY worked in the sport or just put on sleeves and suits). And I LOVE chocolate pits, but don't feel like they're too common.

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on pit bulls in the sport? The one person I've talked to (and I dont know how much experience he actually has working them) says they can be hard to train for it, especially the bitework portion - their outs can be non-existant. I can see that with the breed. On the other hand, I think not outing is a common problem in the sport regardless, especially with so many people eager to work such young puppies on sleeves and suits well before they have any solid foundation work.

My favorite part of the sport is the obedience, and I would think a little female could excel at that. 

Here is the breeder, BTW.

Chocolate Red Nose Working American Pit Bull Terriers

Thank you!


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## Thecowboysgirl

There was just a thread very similar to this...pits as PPDs I think. Try searching that, it probably covers what you are asking


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## Dalko43

OP, you've been a forum member for a while, so maybe I'm preaching to the choir by saying this but be prepared for some, if not a lot, of negative feedback regarding training and even owning a pitbull. From the way some on here have opined on this breed, you'd think they're terrorist attacks waiting to happen.

IMHO, I think a *well-bred, properly-raised* pitbull can be successfully trained and employed in a lot of different venues/activities. I think the 2 factors, in bold, are key as they are for most dogs. I share your reservations about IPO-style bite work, since many pitbulls are extremely stubborn-minded and the out may not be as immediate as what is expected for that sport. They might be okay at other protection sports, but you'll have to ask around on that as using that breed for those activities is uncharted territory for me.

I know nothing about the breeder whom you referenced, so I can't say anything good or bad about him. I will say that it is extremely important to make sure the breeder is ethical. A lot of pitbull breeders sell their dogs to people who dog-fight; and for some, dog-fighting is relied upon to ensure the 'gameness' of their dogs. If he is advertising these dogs as 'working dogs' I would delve into what 'working' activities he is actually training his dogs for. 
What activities does the breeder himself actually train in?
Who has bought his dogs previously and how are they training them?

If you are seriously considering this breeder, I would definitely reach out to prior customers of his and ask questions. Like I said, I don't see any issue for training a pitbull for a wide variety of activities, so long as the dog itself is of a sound mind and healthy. I have heard that there is some uncertainty with modern pitbull breeders: not all breeders are honest about the genetics behind their breedings (there are a lot of pitbull mixes out there being advertised as pure bloods); some breed for conformation or looks to detriment of other, functional pursuits; some still use dog-fighting to produce 'game' dogs. You just want to do some research and make sure that this breeder doesn't fall within any of those categories.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Just a mere week ago.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...75130-can-pit-bulls-good-protection-dogs.html


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## lhczth

*I have removed a few posts. This thread will NOT turn into another childish back and forth argument. If you have nothing to add to the OP's question than keep your opinion to yourself. ADMIN*


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## lhczth

There have been a few APBT in the sport over the years, but they are fairly rare. Even those that are suitable often don't belong to clubs where the helpers know how to work them. I would find a breeder that has experience with working APBT in IPO, since selection of a good prospect will be paramount (even more so than a GSD or Mali), and then hope to find a club that will work with you.


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## cloudpump

I don't think you'll find a pit has the same excitement for IPO. You also wouldn't want a dog that isn't as clear headed in drive. Pits were genetically bred to get into drive and stay in drive no matter what to the finish. That's why breaker bars are needed.


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## Dalko43

cloudpump said:


> I don't think you'll find a pit has the same excitement for IPO. You also wouldn't want a dog that isn't as clear headed in drive. Pits were genetically bred to get into drive and stay in drive no matter what to the finish. That's why breaker bars are needed.


A pitbull that would work well in IPO...maybe not, or at least it would be hard to find a decent one.
I view "clear headed" as a relative term...the average pitbull may not have that trait to the same degree as a well-bred GSD, but there are enough examples of people working pitbulls in other protection sports to indicate that there are some pitbulls who are "clear headed" enough for that type of training.


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## voodoolamb

So.. I am one of this forum's unashamed dirty rotten pit bull lovers... And I do have real time experience with gamebred dogs...

My opinion is that Pit Bulls are not appropriate for IPO or other bitework. 'Man aggression' is a disqualification according to the ADBA standard. A well bred pit, should not possess qualitites such as civilness and suspicion needed for bite work. And IMHO their prey drive should never be allowed to be directed towards a person - owning a pit bull comes with baggage and politics whether you like it or not and you must always keep that in mind, you owe it to every other pit bull fancier on the planet. 

I do know people who have worked their pits in bite sports. And yes, outs can be problematic. Also problematic is actually getting the dogs to engage the helper. I don't see the same joy in pits that do bite work as I do in the dogs actually bred for it. How into IPO would you want to go anyways? Have you ever watched any pit bulls in action? We have some american bull dogs and pits in my local IPO club... They can cause a lot of frustration > The last event I attended, 2 dogs broke the long down - both bully types. Another just trotted off in the middle of his routine. Yes I know that can happen with any dog.. it just seems to be more prevalent in that type around here! Now, don't get me wrong - I loved my pitties, and they loved me - BUT this is not a breed that has an innate desire to work as a partner with their person. They retain the independence of terriers. So the question is how much personal enjoyment will you get with working a dog like that? 

I, myself, don't. I loved my pits companionship. They were awesome pets for me (though they do require more management precautions) but I always kept a herding breed around to fulfill my competitive nature and love of dog sports. I did do some weight pulls with the pits, but could never keep up with the conditioning regimine to do well. Fun though.

I would be very very leary of any breeder who works their breeding stock in bitework venues. Breeding against the standard is always a red flag in any breed...Also, I briefly checked out your breeder's page. Color me unimpressed. Do your due diligence and really scour through the pedigrees, I am seeing a lot of line breeding, far past what most breeders would personally find acceptable. I no longer have a subscription for online-pedigrees as I am out of the pit bull game so to speak and don't have much of an opinion on the dogs close up, but would recommend joining there and asking around before putting a deposit down...


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## voodoolamb

Another thing to keep in mind is if you are working your pit in drive, you need to assume that it WILL redirect to any dog near by. What they really WANT to be doing when they get revved up is latch onto another dog. 

Lots of people train competition obedience in drive, If you choose to do so, ALWAYS carry a muzzle with you for when you enter and leave the performance area. 

Pit Bulls are ZERO MISTAKE dogs.


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## cloudpump

I know it takes the right dog to do IPO. Would it be worth it to have a pit who genetically are bred for prey drive and DA, to have a higher drive? 
I feel like it could cause issues in someone newer to a breed and a sport. Especially if there have been issues in the past with a higher drive dog.


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## voodoolamb

cloudpump said:


> I know it takes the right dog to do IPO. Would it be worth it to have a pit who genetically are bred for prey drive and DA, to have a higher drive?
> I feel like it could cause issues in someone newer to a breed and a sport. Especially if there have been issues in the past with a higher drive dog.


Yes. This.

Terriers. 

Pit bulls in drive want to kill. Animal aggression is a huge part about who they are. 

My pits - the rule was to always keep them out of drive. They were often corrected just for _looking_ at another dog and excitement was shut down. I wanted them in a state of zen. With high impulse control. I thought of them as the incredible hulk and my job was to keep them Bruce banner. 

Basically the exact opposite of what you need to do for sport work.

I've seen the ugly side of pit bulls in drive.

I've seen pits playing tug with their owner drop the toy and turn to another dog and start a fight. Just because they were amped up and having fun and thought a fight would be even MORE fun. 

I ended up with a pit the rescue I worked with had placed after he was returned for killing the family cat. Why? He was barking out the window at a squirrel. Got all revved up in prey drive saw kitty out the corner of his eye and went for it... cat was gone in one bite. That dog should never have been allowed to build frustration while in prey drive and better management practices should have been in place.

Then there are all the maulings on the news...

*sigh*

I just don't see how letting a dog like that practice getting into drive is a good thing. Or breeding more drive into them. And the biggest sin of all - breeding for ones that will engage a man. Not with what they are, what they were designed to do. 

Pits already require over the top management to be safe pets. One with the aptitude and drive to do bite work... not something to undertake lightly.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Over many threads, voodoolamb has posted the best pit bull information I have seen. My eyes have really been opened as the breed has been so well explained. I would completely trust voodoo's judgement on this.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Over many threads, voodoolamb has posted the best pit bull information I have seen. My eyes have really been opened as the breed has been so well explained. I would completely trust voodoo's judgement on this.


People like Voodoo are the true breed advocates.


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## voodoolamb

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Over many threads, voodoolamb has posted the best pit bull information I have seen. My eyes have really been opened as the breed has been so well explained. I would completely trust voodoo's judgement on this.


Aww. Thanks


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## atomic

I have far more experience with pit bulls than GSDs, I happen to have a chocolate ADBA APBT and I can say with conviction she is the best dog I have ever had.

I can take her anywhere, do anything with her. She is THE hit everywhere she goes, she is truly a breed ambassador and I cannot count the number of people she has left a positive influence on that otherwise have only heard of pits... and not good things, either.

She is incredibly athletic, and they have a tenacity that is unparalleled. That being said, while physically a APBT would excel in this sport handsomely, I agree with voodoo and do not recommend it. It is against their nature to go after man, nor given their capabilities should it be encouraged IMO. The APBT has a battered reputation as it is, mostly by the doings of "pit bull" types that are essentially mutts that boast stocky bodies and blocky heads. 

They are incredible dogs, and absolutely wonderful family members. 

My girl, she will be 9 in April. These photos are a little older than that but she is aging very gracefully


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## Stevenzachsmom

atomic said:


> I have far more experience with pit bulls than GSDs, I happen to have a chocolate ADBA APBT and I can say with conviction she is the best dog I have ever had.
> 
> I can take her anywhere, do anything with her. She is THE hit everywhere she goes, she is truly a breed ambassador and I cannot count the number of people she has left a positive influence on that otherwise have only heard of pits... and not good things, either.
> 
> She is incredibly athletic, and they have a tenacity that is unparalleled. That being said, while physically a APBT would excel in this sport handsomely, I agree with voodoo and do not recommend it. It is against their nature to go after man, nor given their capabilities should it be encouraged IMO. The APBT has a battered reputation as it is, mostly by the doings of "pit bull" types that are essentially mutts that boast stocky bodies and blocky heads.
> 
> They are incredible dogs, and absolutely wonderful family members.
> 
> My girl, she will be 9 in April. These photos are a little older than that but she is aging very gracefully


She is beautiful!


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## atomic

Thank you!!!  she is my best friend, though my "little" buddy Brinks is right there alongside her.

I also forgot to mention (this is just my opinion btw) but any breeder that touts their dogs as being a certain color is a red flag to me. My dad used to say to me "a good horse is never the wrong color" and I couldn't agree more. While of course we all have our preferences, IMO color should be the last priority over temperament, health, ability and longevity. Also the term "red nose" really jogs my nerves, a pet peeve if you will. So many people think the color of the dogs nose indicates a certain special strain, and even call a plain black nose "blue". It is the color of their nose, nothing more. No other dog breed with variable nose colors has it indicated otherwise, so why has it been made such a big deal with pits? I may never understand lol. If you do decide to get an ADBA ABPT, you will not be disappointed as they are as silly and entertaining as they are infectious in their character and at times bullheaded. Good luck!


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## Deb

I am just curious. But why ask about Pitt Bulls and doing IPO on a GSD forum. Wouldn't you get better and more realistic answers on a forum for Pitt Bulls? When I googled Pitt Bull forums there appears to a large number of them. I would think the people who have that breed would know a lot more about it then people whom the majority don't have them.


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## voodoolamb

> Also the term "red nose" really jogs my nerves, a pet peeve if you will. So many people think the color of the dogs nose indicates a certain special strain, and even call a plain black nose "blue". It is the color of their nose, nothing more. No other dog breed with variable nose colors has it indicated otherwise, so why has it been made such a big deal with pits?


Uhh... the red nose color is of incredible historical importance to the breed. 

The red nose gene is a recessive genetic mutation that popped up in Irish dogs in the late 18 hundreds. Some of the most influential dogmen of the day imported the Irish dogs as they were considered the best in the world. Much the way people import WL gsds from Europe today. 

Colby brought the Irish dogs to the north. Shipley to the south. Tudor purchased pure Irish dogs from Shipley and brought them to the Mid West. I am pretty sure Henry had Irish dogs too.

Their gameness was unmatched. If you look at match reports from the era you see a definite trend of the Irish dogs being very very serious animals in the pit. 

Because the red nose coloration was recessive, any American born dogs that had it, HAD to have been line bred on those Irish imports. It was an easy visual cue to the pedigree. I have even heard anecdotal reports of dogmen coloring the nose of their dogs black only to have the red pigment appear during the wash because too many people would scratch their dogs if they saw a red nose walk in.

Red nose/ irish dogs were so game and developed such a reputation for their fighting prowess when the American Staffordshire broke off from the APBT they actually refused to register red nosed dogs even though they were the same breed, in an attempt to break their fledgling breed free from its blood sports origin. To this day, red noses are a major disqualifying trait in the show standard of Am Staffs.

As to what, if anything, nose color has to do with the dogs of today, is debatable... but due to the recessiveness of the gene - red noses are still most likely to pop up in pure APBTs and not the derivative breeds. 

I've always laughed about it... the red nose thing is the pit bull version of inception... "it's just a X" inside a "it's just a X" 

"It's just a nose" and "it's just a dog". When the reality is breed matters very very much. And, historically for sure, nose color mattered too


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## Dotbat215

voodoolamb said:


> Aww. Thanks


Agreed. When we first got my shepherd mix we were told he was probably mixed with dobe... But since knowledgeable folks here and in real life said he had pit bull in him. I was really nervous with their reputation, history, and the way since folks here talk about them (I was lurking well before we got the dog). But your posts really helped. You present pits in a very honest and level headed way. Neither hysteria nor fawning adoration is helpful with any breed.


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## G-burg

The DVG club I'm a member of and a few other clubs in my area have Pitbulls competing in the sport.. All have earned there titles and a few have went on to compete at the regional national level.. None have shown any outward aggression to people or other dogs while competing.. A well trained dog is a well trained dog... Or maybe I've been really lucky with the people and dogs I've been exposed to.. 

I see nothing wrong with working them in prey, there primary drive on the man... I'm thinking about trying it with our little AmStaff Terrier...


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## voodoolamb

G-burg said:


> The DVG club I'm a member of and a few other clubs in my area have Pitbulls competing in the sport.. All have earned there titles and a few have went on to compete at the regional national level.. None have shown any outward aggression to people or other dogs while competing..
> 
> A well trained dog is a well trained dog... Or maybe I've been really lucky with the people and dogs I've been exposed to..


The problem with this, is that not all dogs are capable of achieving the same level of training. There are many breeds out there where the breed experts will warn you can NEVER trust the dog in certain situations. No matter how much training it has. Some Sighthounds, Nordic Breeds, and Hounds should never be allowed off leash in an unfenced area or they will be GONE. Many terriers can never be trusted around small animals.

Pit Bulls can NEVER be 100% trusted around other dogs. 

Pits are just not clear headed when they are in drive like a shepherd should be. They weren't _designed_ to be. With shepherds, if you count the foundation stock landraces, there is literally centuries of selecting dogs that work well with a human partner that _ can take direction while in drive_ behind them. Pit Bull ancestry includes dogs that worked independently from humans, that _would not be dissuaded from their objective in drive._ 

A pit bull is never going to be able to achieve the same levels of obedience and reliability that a shepherd would. They simply do not have the genetics. 

Now, I am not saying that pit bulls can't become well trained companions. They can. But you can never rely on obedience alone to protect other dogs and people from them. They must be managed their entire lives. 

I'm also not saying that every pit bull will attack at every chance they get, every time they are in drive. The truth is most pit bulls will go through their lives without ever hurting any one or any other dog. 

However, all pit bulls are CAPABLE of doing so and all it takes is ONE MISTAKE, ONE TIME and you get a situation like this:



> At a dog trial/event, a competing dog(a pit bull) had just run its course. Nice dog, fantastic owner, was working with her dog, the same way I do. This owner was a good a responsible owner. Exactly the type of owner we say all pitbulls should have. That day a cocker spaniel got one inch too close and the pit(being all jacked and in drive) grabbed that cocker. It was a horrific scene. Screaming like I have never heard and no less that 7 people jumped in to help. Nothing helped. After a minute I handed off my dog to a bystander and ran to help. When I got there the pits owner was literally on the ground with her entire body wrapped around the cocker trying to protect the little dog and 7 other people were trying to get the pit to release the poor thing. I was Able to get behind the pit and "flanked the crud" out of him and he finally released. But this dog was not finished. It was crazy and wild eyed and still out of his head aggressive. I have never seen anything like this. It was terrifying.


The above was an incident posted by @gsdsar on this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/668946-montreal-pitbull-ban-22.html

Stories like that a fairly common when discussing the breed. It's just who they are. They get all revved up and drivey and they want to fight. It's what we bred them to do. 

Because of what pit bulls are. Because of what pit bulls are capable of, responsible pit bull owners can NEVER ALLOW something the above to take place. 

I said further up the thread that if you wanted to do competition with a pit - to be sure you always carry a muzzle and use it. I stand by that statement. That is exactly what I did with my own gamebred dogs and pit mixes. Actually I carried a muzzle with me everywhere in case we would stumble across a situation that looked like it might end up with my dog getting all jacked up. 

Pit Bulls are ZERO MISTAKE dogs.

Purposely putting them into a situation where they are supposed to get all drivey is going to exponentially increase your odds of an incident happening. If you don't keep that in mind, and you don't take extra precaution, you are playing with fire. 



> I see nothing wrong with working them in prey, there primary drive on the man... I'm thinking about trying it with our little AmStaff Terrier...


ADBA standard specifically states that man aggression is a disqualifying fault of the apbt. They are not meant for man work. 

but more so than that...

Pit Bulls, AmStaffs, and Staffies are breeds in jeopardy. They are being banned left and right. They are being killed en masse. There eventually will be a day that legislation prevents those of us who admire them from being able to keep them if things continue the way they have been over the last 20 years. It's already happening in countries around the globe.

Pit Bull Politics. 

The public perception of these breeds are not good ones. Having our dogs engage in man work is not going to reflect well on us owners or our dogs with the current pit bull political temperature of the world. 

Everyone who owns one of these animals are on trial in the court of public opinion. If we want to preserve our breeds for future generations then we HAVE to become good stewards of them. We need to stop spewing propaganda like "blame the deed not the breed" and step up and say. "Hey. I know what I have, and look. I can keep it responsibly". We have to stop the maulings. We have to be rabid towards those who keep our breed irresponsibly. We have to shepherd our breed back to the obscurity from which it came, where only the true fanciers could find them. We have to make every decision, every minute of every day in regards to our dogs with the thought of "How is this going to reflect upon the breed as a whole" 

We need to do that if we want to keep our block headed cuddle bunnies.


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## atomic

Perhaps dogmen of days past had importance on nose color, but in modern times where people aren't (or shouldn't be) dog fighting IMO nose color is fairly trivial. However my dogs are pets, sometimes I lose sight that my priorities may not be someone else's.


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## Muskeg

There was a troubling story in our little local paper this week about a pair of pitbulls that got lose during a family visit and killed a medium sized visiting dog, then went on to attack the people who intervened. The police were called and killed both dogs. 

That kind of story terrifies me. I think it is terrible just all around.

Owning a pitbull doesn't seem like it would be any fun, and the stakes are high. Why not get a nice sporty malinois or GSD who is also social and enjoy owning the dog? If you want a rarer breed maybe a well bred Beauc or Russian Terrier, I don't know. Owning a dog can be heartbreaking enough due to unpredictable issues, why go with a breed known to be dog-dog aggressive and known for killing and mauling people? 

To pay $1500 for a breed that is filling up our shelters, also seems wrong, in my book. I will pay good money for a well bred dog, but, at least at this point, the breed-line of puppy I'm looking for is not available in shelters nor is it being way overbred.


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## Dotbat215

@VooDoo

Is there a way to tell if a dog will become aggressive when they're in drive without actually witnessing it? If that makes sense...


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## voodoolamb

Dotbat215 said:


> @VooDoo
> 
> Is there a way to tell if a dog will become aggressive when they're in drive without actually witnessing it? If that makes sense...


I'd put my money on if it has a tail, four legs and can bark. Lol

I guess it's how you define aggression... I mean prey drive it's self can be considered aggression... but I think what you are asking is more about redirection? Like how to tell if a dog that is getting all revved up - like running around and playing hard - will tip the scale and go from excitement/play to a legit attack with intent to do harm??? Or how to tell if the pit walking out the agility ring looking so happy and pleased with himself is going to suddenly jump another dog?

If that's the case, then IME there is no sure fire tell that is applicable to all dogs in all situations. If you know the individual dog well, you can pick up the signs of their arousal. One of my past boys had an ever so slight change in the pitch of his whine that tipped me off that he would go off his rocker if things didn't settle down. General warning signs with pits is the big sweeping tail wag, and intense focus.

Its not just a pit thing though, its all in the same vein of redirected aggression and barrier frustration. Etc Pretty typical dog things. Walk by any multidog house where they are allowed to run the fenceline. Eventually the get so riled up you'll hear a growl and a snap directed at their own pack mate. Or watch some dogs at play. It's not terribly uncommon for it to escalate into a scuffle. The only difference is once pits bulls get tuned up and go on the attack - they don't stop. 

The other thing to consider is the breed's default behaviors. Just think about how many retrievers that just HAVE to pick up a toy and prance around when someone comes to the door because they are just SO excited. Or how many shepherds start to get mouthy and try to 'herd' the kids while they are running around the back yard... 

Much of the working behaviors of dogs such as herding and retrieving are types of modified prey drive. IME Arousal often leads to defaulting into the dogs primary prey based behavior. With pits - that means they will be looking for a fight. 

So my rule of thumb is that an exited pit bull is a pit bull ready to fight.


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## Dotbat215

voodoolamb said:


> I'd put my money on if it has a tail, four legs and can bark. Lol...etc


Thanks. That covered alot of what I was thinking about.

I ask because I think there's a good chance my shepherd mix is part pit and I'm always slightly nervous that I'm missing signs or not handling him like I should be.


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## Dalko43

voodoolamb said:


> The problem with this, is that not all dogs are capable of achieving the same level of training. There are many breeds out there where the breed experts will warn you can NEVER trust the dog in certain situations. No matter how much training it has. Some *Sighthounds, Nordic Breeds, and Hounds should never be allowed off leash in an unfenced area or they will be GONE*. Many terriers can never be trusted around small animals.
> 
> *Pit Bulls can NEVER be 100% trusted around other dogs. *


Voodoo, the poster you were responding to just provided an example of pitbulls who were capable of doing protection training without going off on other dogs....not all pitbulls are walking basket-cases.

And, believe it or not, some scent hounds and sight hounds are perfectly okay off leash. You have to be careful about applying generalities like that to every single dog a certain breed or type.

There are plenty of examples of pitbulls being used safely and effectively for protection work and sport training. It's all a matter of finding the right dog and using the right training methods.

And yes, it's a given that any owner should be extremely careful and deliberate about picking a pitbull and training it for IPO or something similar....but you know what, so should anyone picking a GSD. You pick and train a poorly-bred GSD (the poorly-bred ones easily outnumber the well-bred ones) and you can have a dog that is overly-reactive, highly aggressive or fearful that is capable of causing serious harm to others. 

I agree with you that owning a pitbull, and certainly training one for protection sports, is not suitable for a novice dog-owner....but then again neither is owning and training a GSD or Malinois with decent drives. If the person knows what they're doing and uses the appropriate training, I don't have a problem with a pitbull being trained for this kind of stuff....I freely admit that's a big if because by and large, I don't think there are many out there who truly know how to handle and train dogs for working or sporting purposes.

And as for all the other comments you made about how a pitbull can't be trusted around other dogs and how it may inadvertently target other dogs or handlers when in drive, I'll point you to the numerous hog-hunting packs that work throughout the southern and mid-western states. In those applications, pitbulls have proven to be well capable of working and cooperating with other dogs in a pack environment without going off on the other dogs or their human handlers.

We're sitting here talking about working pitbulls as if this is some big hypothetical topic; there's nothing hypothetical about it as there are plenty of real-world examples of pitbulls being worked and trained in a variety of applications.


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## Deb

And I don't understand why on a German Shepherd Forum we have to get into a Pit Bull discussion once a week. If someone has a question about Pit Bulls, there are a ton of Pit Bull Forums out there. They are the ones who can answer questions about Pit Bulls. Why ask owners of GSDs about a breed that isn't theirs? If I wanted to know about Gordon Setters I wouldn't be asking Pointer people. Same principal. You want to know about Pit Bulls, ask the people on a Pit Bull Forum who own the breed.


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## Dalko43

Deb said:


> And I don't understand why on a German Shepherd Forum we have to get into a Pit Bull discussion once a week. If someone has a question about Pit Bulls, there are a ton of Pit Bull Forums out there. They are the ones who can answer questions about Pit Bulls. Why ask owners of GSDs about a breed that isn't theirs? If I wanted to know about Gordon Setters I wouldn't be asking Pointer people. Same principal. You want to know about Pit Bulls, ask the people on a Pit Bull Forum who own the breed.


If posters want to discuss pitbulls in working/sporting applications, let them discuss it. I think there is good info and feedback to be gained from this type of conversation that applies to dog ownership and training in general. And it's not like this thread is taking up space or attention away from other hot topics on this part of the forum.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> And I don't understand why on a German Shepherd Forum we have to get into a Pit Bull discussion once a week. If someone has a question about Pit Bulls, there are a ton of Pit Bull Forums out there. They are the ones who can answer questions about Pit Bulls. Why ask owners of GSDs about a breed that isn't theirs? If I wanted to know about Gordon Setters I wouldn't be asking Pointer people. Same principal. You want to know about Pit Bulls, ask the people on a Pit Bull Forum who own the breed.


At least the Gordon Setter and Pointer are both field dogs, like GSDs, Mals and Dutchies are herding dogs. 

Categorize Pits what you will, dog fighting breed, bully breed, mastiff type, etc. Either way, many consider them to be on the opposite end of the spectrum for what the two breeds have been respectively bred.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dalko43 said:


> If posters want to discuss pitbulls in working/sporting applications, let them discuss it. I think there is good info and feedback to be gained from this type of conversation that applies to dog ownership and training in general. And it's not like this thread is taking up space or attention away from other hot topics on this part of the forum.


If you think there is good information and feedback to be gained discussing Pit Bulls on a GSD forum, you should try going to the gamebred forums! You would really be impressed.


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## CatChandler

And right now, on an APBT forum somewhere, owners are trash talking GSDs and saying how they're vicious and unpredictable... 

I'm new here, but I'll make a suggestion - Maybe all future non-GSD-breed discussions should be posted in the designated "non-GSD-breed discussion" section of the forum...? (If you can't find it, don't worry, just keep looking!)


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## Deb

Dalko43 said:


> If posters want to discuss pitbulls in working/sporting applications, let them discuss it. I think there is good info and feedback to be gained from this type of conversation that applies to dog ownership and training in general. And it's not like this thread is taking up space or attention away from other hot topics on this part of the forum.



I won't turn this into an argument. This is a GSD forum. I have a Golden, but if I want or need information about them I am certainly not going to ask people with GSDs. There is a ton of dog ownership and training information already on this forum that pertains specifically to German Shepherds, which is what this forum is for and about. There are how many people on this forum? How many own Pit Bulls? How many are experts on Pit Bulls? There are a good number of Pit Bull forums which a loaded with Pit Bull people who actually know the answers to questions, who are experts about their breed. They _know _the correct answers and can back it up with experience. If I have a medical question I'm not going to ask the Dentist. If it were once in a great while a Pit Bull question came up, okay. But it is all the time! It seems almost weekly. I have nothing against Pit Bulls. All my experiences have been positive with them. So this is nothing against Pit Bulls, only that all the questions, arguments, etc., are being asked to people who in general have no real knowledge of the breed and they always end up with admin having to step in. Why?


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## Jax08

Deb said:


> I won't turn this into an argument. This is a GSD forum. I have a Golden, but if I want or need information about them I am certainly not going to ask people with GSDs.



Well....this is the IPO/Schutzhund section of the forum. At one time, it was very active with many knowledgeable people who were very active in IPO who would have the experience to answer this question, just as Lisa and Leesa did.

It always baffles me why anyone complains about a person asking about a different breed on this board. But then will often be the first ones to tell others they'll talk about whatever they want to. I guess if people who have never stepped foot on an IPO field can answer an IPO question then people shouldn't object to a person asking for input from IPO people on whether they've experienced a certain breed other than a GSD doing IPO. :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

It is not about a person asking about a different breed on this board.

It is about the constant, never ending Pit Bull threads on this board.


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## Deb

Jax08 said:


> It always baffles me why anyone complains about a person asking about a different breed on this board.



Jax, it's two fold. I have no problem with asking about a different breed. But if you want to use a dog bred for aggression originally at other dogs to set it against a person then I think you should be asking the people who know the breed best. How many other breeds have people asked about in the last few months? A general question about other breeds is fine. There's a non gsd thread that can be used. But it appears to be Pit Bulls quite often, sometimes it feels like this is almost a three quarters GSD and one quarter Pit Bull forum. It's been weekly. If it was always civil that would be one thing, but it always appears to degenerate into an argument and admin stepping in, deleting comments or needing to close the thread. General questions I have no problems with. We all had a good general discussion about collies a while back. We didn't all agree but that's all right. It was a good discussion. But if you have a specific question about a breed, the best place to go to is people who have that breed. I wouldn't be asking a hunting question about my Golden to GSD people. I'm sure there are GSD people who could answer some of my questions, but I can go to a Golden forum and get tons of real life experience answers to my questions. How many people here have trained IPO to Pits to be able to really give excellent informative answers? Don't you think a Pit Bull forum would be able to give better answers? Real answers?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> *We all had a good general discussion about collies a while back. *


And you won't see another about Collies for a long time to come despite so many people on this forum owning/ or having owned Collies.


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## voodoolamb

Dalko43 said:


> Voodoo, the poster you were responding to just provided an example of pitbulls who were capable of doing protection training without going off on other dogs....not all pitbulls are walking basket-cases.
> 
> And, believe it or not, some scent hounds and sight hounds are perfectly okay off leash. You have to be careful about applying generalities like that to every single dog a certain breed or type.
> 
> There are plenty of examples of pitbulls being used safely and effectively for protection work and sport training. It's all a matter of finding the right dog and using the right training methods.
> 
> And yes, it's a given that any owner should be extremely careful and deliberate about picking a pitbull and training it for IPO or something similar....but you know what, so should anyone picking a GSD. You pick and train a poorly-bred GSD (the poorly-bred ones easily outnumber the well-bred ones) and you can have a dog that is overly-reactive, highly aggressive or fearful that is capable of causing serious harm to others.
> 
> I agree with you that owning a pitbull, and certainly training one for protection sports, is not suitable for a novice dog-owner....but then again neither is owning and training a GSD or Malinois with decent drives. If the person knows what they're doing and uses the appropriate training, I don't have a problem with a pitbull being trained for this kind of stuff....I freely admit that's a big if because by and large, I don't think there are many out there who truly know how to handle and train dogs for working or sporting purposes.
> 
> And as for all the other comments you made about how a pitbull can't be trusted around other dogs and how it may inadvertently target other dogs or handlers when in drive, I'll point you to the numerous hog-hunting packs that work throughout the southern and mid-western states. In those applications, pitbulls have proven to be well capable of working and cooperating with other dogs in a pack environment without going off on the other dogs or their human handlers.
> 
> We're sitting here talking about working pitbulls as if this is some big hypothetical topic; there's nothing hypothetical about it as there are plenty of real-world examples of pitbulls being worked and trained in a variety of applications.


So Dalko, how many game bred pits have you personally owned and trained? 

Everything I have spoken about pits has come from years of experience living with, training, and working APBTs. I've experienced the crappy BYB shelter pits. Ex fighters. And nice ADBA dogs. 

I've never claimed all pits are basket cases. Just the opposite, actually. If you were to actually read my post you would notice it was less about a pit Bull's actually capability of doing the work and more about the politics involved with the breed and why they should not be used for man work in light of hundreds of maulings by pit bulls. Purposely setting a pit bull on a man - bite suit and sport or not - is not being a good steward of the breed. Which has written in its standard that man aggression is a faulty temperament. 

You show a grave underestimation of genetics across many breeds of dogs. You can not train out genetics. You can use training to shut down drives to help manage genetic inclinations - but no training is 100% reliable. Some breeds simply cannot be trained to the same degree of reliability. I can get my gsd to have a 98% reliable recall. My sister's husky maybe 80%. Shepherds were designed to take direction while working in prey drive (herding sheep) huskies were not. The exceptions to the rules you like to point out in regards to huskies and sighthounds - have a high degree of luck in their favor. 

As for your hog hunting dogs. Sorry, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies. What about all the dogs that wash and get dumped because they were not suitable for hog hunting? Plenty of anecdotes out there about hunters who had a pit they couldn't use because it would scrap with other dogs. Or that keep their catch dogs leashed until the bay dogs corner it... why do you suppose that is?



> *Of course there is risk involved in dogs fighting each other,* getting injured from prey and by the terrain, but though it’s possible, if you take care of your dogs and are conscious of their safety this is often not a large concern.


Hunting wild hog with dogs ? Flint & Rod Outdoor Magazine

I have said it before, and I will say it again: No. Not every pit bull will attack or fight at every opportunity. In fact most pit bulls will go their entire lives without doing so.

However, every pit bull is a gladiator by DNA. They are born to fight and kill.it is what we made them to do. You can never trust your training over their instincts. Because what pit bulls are, because what they are capable of, and because what they have DONE - it is imperative that the owners of these dogs ALWAYS manage them by physical means (especially in situations where they are going to be all drivey) and make dam sure that they can NEVER harm another dog or God forbid a person.


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## Jax08

Deb said:


> Jax, it's two fold. I have no problem with asking about a different breed. But if you want to use a dog bred for aggression originally at other dogs to set it against a person then I think you should be asking the people who know the breed best. How many other breeds have people asked about in the last few months? A general question about other breeds is fine. There's a non gsd thread that can be used. But it appears to be Pit Bulls quite often, sometimes it feels like this is almost a three quarters GSD and one quarter Pit Bull forum. It's been weekly. If it was always civil that would be one thing, but it always appears to degenerate into an argument and admin stepping in, deleting comments or needing to close the thread. General questions I have no problems with. We all had a good general discussion about collies a while back. We didn't all agree but that's all right. It was a good discussion. But if you have a specific question about a breed, the best place to go to is people who have that breed. I wouldn't be asking a hunting question about my Golden to GSD people. I'm sure there are GSD people who could answer some of my questions, but I can go to a Golden forum and get tons of real life experience answers to my questions. How many people here have trained IPO to Pits to be able to really give excellent informative answers? Don't you think a Pit Bull forum would be able to give better answers? Real answers?


I don't disagree with any of this. Would I go to a breed forum for specific questions on a breed? Probably. Not always. I asked on here regarding breed traits of huskies and got great answers from people that own them. Wolfy Dog asked on here on breed traits of Collie's and I was able to give her insight. So no reason to not ask people on a forum that you've interacted with for years. And again, Anubis doesn't post that often anymore but when she did, this particular section was very active and people could have answered her questions. Just exactly like Lisa and Leesa did in this thread. People that actually own the breed added their thoughts in here as well.

It's funny that some people will be the first to jump on and tell you that they can talk about whatever they want and then object to someone else's topic. If you don't like the topic then move on. Yes, this is a GSD forum. But it has never been restricted to only discussing the GSD breed with the exception of the rescue section. After all, many of us own breeds other than German Shepherds.

And really, just because a thread is here doesn't mean a person needs to participate in it. The admins would have far less to delete if people would use a little self control.


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## lhczth

OP, hopefully your question has been answered. I am closing down this thread before it goes down hill. 

ADMIN Lisa


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