# Well established and known examples of risks associated with byb (back yard breeders)



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Well established and known examples of risks associated with byb (back yard breeders)

Since, I do not know all the associated and the established risks, I'm asking in a polite manner. Health, temperament, veterinary associated unexpected costs, basic liabilities and the percentage likelihood of getting a good solid animal as a pet, not meant for breeding would be the first questions.. I would like examples of.. 

Yes, I have $2000.00 + dollars to have invested in what I would have considered a near perfect animal. I also have the resources to care, feed, & train this animal for the entire life expectancy. 

I think my problem with the 'bold face gsd community' is not a putdown. It comes from my upbringing, specifically from my father who instilled in me certain parameters of life, how to enjoy it, getting the most bang (happiness) from it and always' to stand on my own principles and never waiver. He died when I was 14 so he had to cram 50 years into less that 15 to make his mark. 

In the 60s when I was young all there were is byb's in my community. I do remember the gsd's in my neighborhood. They most likely were flatter toplines, large heads a few sables and a few black and tans about 75 pounds, most were males. American bread shepherd's. I never saw a sloped topline in my teens.

I am going to include a video and I already know most member's here have already seen it.. They don't like it, but I will use this video to show American and German champions German Shepherd's from the 1940s to present, for those who don't know the evolution of the breed. It is not meant to create dissension, it is meant to be informative. I do not necessarily agree with everything the author of the video is implying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc-UsM-tivU

Sorry, if this is offensive to some...

Questions: 

What percentage of top bloodlines are show champions ?
What percentage of top bloodlines are plush or coats ?
What percentage of top bloodlines are well balanced temperaments ?
What percentage of top bloodlines are at risk from attacks on family member's young & old as well as guests of the home who are not associated with the pack structure of the animal ?

Sehrgutcsg


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm not even sure how you would get those questions answered. Sounds like a long and involved task of research, compiling information and breaking it down into percentiles. Be sure to come back and post once you have that all done!


----------



## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Want GSDs that Look Like the Originals? Go here---->*

Giantgermanshepherds.com

My Zeus has a giant head, a completely straight back parallel to the ground, exceptionally large bones and, when they're spread out when he's stretching, paws as large as a cup saucer, amber penetrating predatory eyes, strength of a horse, agility to match, ball drive that won't stop, extremely loyal and protective, so impressive to other dogs that strays run away, weighs more than 100 lbs...

...and he's the absolutely sweetest animal you ever wanted to meet.

AND HE'S STILL GROWING AT ONLY 16 MONTHS.

LF


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*Sorry, I asked.. lol )...*

I guess the questions I asked were just too complex. It's okay, the line-breeding, breeding for color and such has taken it's toll on the breed. I think my point was to prove a "BYB GSD" can be trained to do most anything and if the God's are permitting, maybe in 4 or more years the status quo will put the $2000.00 to $5000.00 - 8 week old puppies in a position where the breeder's overhead expenditures are no longer a factor. As I once indicated, in 1960 a pure bread GSD was just as good, if not better then today's GSD and cost about $25.00, so factor in inflation and you got your value..

:wild:


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Someone with more knowledge can correct me, but I'm under the impression that the reason that BYBing GSDs is wrong is because they're playing russian roulette with recessive genes, and by combining the dogs willy-nilly they're taking a risk with the offspring that they wouldn't be taking if they knew exactly what they were doing, and producing. I could be wrong


----------



## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Of the three byb gsds I know two of them have hip displasia and the other is high strung to the point of neurotic and has skin issues. She is still quite young so we shall see how her hips hold out. Of the many, many, many 'american' style registered gsds I know (personally, I won't count the ones I know through their owners on the internet) not one has allergies, hip displasia, perianal fistulas, elbow issues, EPI. One is a little sharp but none have any major temperament issues. 
I work in a pet supply store and the only gsds that I see that are sane and well mannered in public are from registered breeders that work their dogs. We have a local registered breeder who imports dogs from germany and sells 'top european bloodlines' and every one of their dogs I have seen is a high strung maniac. They do not work their dogs, just try to make a profit off of 'rare champion german heritage'. 
IMO a registered dog, from a proven good kennel you have thoroughly researched is your best bet for a healthy, sane dog.


----------



## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Here is all the evidence you should ever need.

See if you can view a few pages of these images and still want to use a back yard breeder.

WARNING: the link includes graphic images showing the results of back yard breeding.


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en.....1ac.1.37.img..2.16.934.Yilcp8u4xt0#imgdii=_


----------



## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

Ugh...I got Zoe from a hobby breeder before I knew it was apparently a bad idea. Shame on me for being ignorant to the issues that can go along with such decisions. I think I'll skip the link :/ 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> Giantgermanshepherds.com
> 
> My Zeus has a giant head, a completely straight back parallel to the ground, exceptionally large bones and, when they're spread out when he's stretching, paws as large as a cup saucer, amber penetrating predatory eyes, strength of a horse, agility to match, ball drive that won't stop, extremely loyal and protective, so impressive to other dogs that strays run away, weighs more than 100 lbs...
> 
> ...


I am not trying to cause any debate, but I have to make an observation... This probably doesn't apply to your dog, but the adult dogs on the Giant German Shepherds site pretty much all seem overweight. Hard to tell their true conformation... How are their hips and elbows? The website mentions that their dogs have good hips and don't, in general, produce dysplastic dogs, but the site doesn't list any OFA or Penn Hip certifications...

I have had very large GSDs in the past, I have also had medium-sized and small GSDs. I am not against large sizes, in fact, always enjoyed them, but, again, many of those dogs do not appear to have the frames sufficient for the weight they are carrying. The large GSDs I had were built to carry their weight, and they had well-defined waists and good muscle, without being thin.

I must say, though, from the photos on the website these dogs do appear to have good temperaments and seem to be well socialized.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I guess the questions I asked were just too complex. It's okay, the line-breeding, breeding for color and such has taken it's toll on the breed. I think my point was to prove a "BYB GSD" can be trained to do most anything and if the God's are permitting, maybe in 4 or more years the status quo will put the $2000.00 to $5000.00 - 8 week old puppies in a position where the breeder's overhead expenditures are no longer a factor. As I once indicated, in 1960 a pure bread GSD was just as good, if not better then today's GSD and cost about $25.00, so factor in inflation and you got your value..
> 
> :wild:



I would like to see your proof that BYB GSD from 1960 are better than the dogs we have today? Is that your subjective opinion based on dogs you knew in your neighborhood?

The problem with BYB is that they often fail to test their dogs, health test, temperament test, nerve. They have a good family dog, so they find another family dog and have puppies. Many of the puppies will be just fine family dogs. 

But without an understanding of the genetics behind the dogs, you run the risk of a really poor genetic match, you get dogs with allergies, bad hips or elbows, in appropriately aggressive( which most uneducated families write off as "he's very protective of me), or that are shy and fearful. 

Yes, these problems also crop up in well thought out breedings. Some dogs, no matter the research, do not end up meshing well phenotypically. But by using a breeder that does health screening, temperament screening, and understand the histories of all the dogs in a pairs pedigree, you can get a better understanding of what kind if puppy you will get. 

I do agree that there are some very overpriced dogs, whose breeders look very legitimate, who trial, train, show their dogs, that produce bad dogs. Just because someone does not come across as a BYB, does not make them a good breeder either. Kennel blindness is rampant in any breed. Trust me I have seen it in person. 

Being an educated buyer, truly understanding what YOU want in a GSD, being able to look at dogs and be honest about the traits you find important, is the best thing you can do. 

If you want to breed your dog. That's up to you. If you want to breed your dog to your other dog, knock yourself out. But understand, no matter your moral stance in the issue, you are bringing new lives into the world, and selling them to families that will love them. So wouldn't you want to make sure that those families do not have to go through the heartache of a dog with sever allergies, bad temperaments, hip dysplasia. Don't you want to be able to say, "I have done everything I can to ensure that the parents if the puppy you are buying from me are healthy, free from orthopedic issues and a good dog, correct to the breed. I can't promise there won't be issues, but I tried my best to mitigate them. Enjoy your puppy for the rest if it's life?"


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> I am not trying to cause any debate, but I have to make an observation... This probably doesn't apply to your dog, but the adult dogs on the Giant German Shepherds site pretty much all seem overweight. Hard to tell their true conformation... How are their hips and elbows? The website mentions that their dogs have good hips and don't, in general, produce dysplastic dogs, but the site doesn't list any OFA or Penn Hip certifications...
> 
> I have had very large GSDs in the past, I have also had medium-sized and small GSDs. I am not against large sizes, in fact, always enjoyed them, but, again, many of those dogs do not appear to have the frames sufficient for the weight they are carrying. The large GSDs I had were built to carry their weight, and they had well-defined waists and good muscle, without being thin.
> 
> I must say, though, from the photos on the website these dogs do appear to have good temperaments and seem to be well socialized.



Mom, I am aware you are very respected member here, I applaud your efforts and concern, great ! I cannot speak for "longfisher" but we did PM each other and he showed genuine concern to keep the weight down and the exercise routine up. I am not here to judge per-se, I am here to learn and again I have mentioned this before. I feel the people, or at least a large percentage of them who can afford to lay out $2000.00 for a pup, may not be the choice of some breeder's>..

I looked at all the pictures, most are gross. But, let's differentiate the puppy mills for the occasional backyard breeder. After one litter, most will get out of that, fast. I was lucky, when I had a litter I had a professional picking the dog's to be mated. It's was heartbreaking, I would never wish the feeling of seeing a dog fall behind it's littermates.. That's all on that subject. Picking specifically different bloodlines in my opinion "may" produce a better dog, it's a crap shoot.

Bad hips are a problem. Temperament as well. Large oversize animals (largest to the largest) does not just place a load on the frame, but also the organs as well.

There's a lot to be learned here. I hope I can contribute as much as I can learn. If the top (super duper German bloodlines) prove to be superior, I will be the first to admit I was inaccurate in my judgement, but for now I am just paying for the breeder's tremendous overhead, airfare, vet bills, expensive top bloodlines unproven to be superior and basic greed $$$ factor's.

And no, I am not trolling for an answer. It does not matter, as I made my choice already' not to pay the "top dollar for the top pet,' as breeding and show are not something I desire to pursue, but I want the best for the breed I love.

GSDSAR, I read your post and I agree. You are spot on the money. Thank you and congrats. on becoming a moderator.





 
Based on what I see here.. Smoother lines, larger heads. Subjective opinion...


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZoeD1217 said:


> Ugh...I got Zoe from a hobby breeder before I knew it was apparently a bad idea. Shame on me for being ignorant to the issues that can go along with such decisions. I think I'll skip the link :/
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I found out about BYB's thru Boxers. Temperament, Nerve and bad hips aren't usually a problem. Getting a Boxer past 3yr 6yr or 10yrs is the problem!

My first lasted two weeks, Parvo took her.  Second one I did better 8yrs and then DM at 8.5, dedication ,care and heartbreak followed and she was carried "literally" across the finish line to 10 yrs. 

So yeah....


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have two that I have no clue where they came from. Best dogs in the world. Vets have told me time after time that they wished that all GSD's were like mine. It was said with sadness, because they don't think that they are like they used to be and they are no where near like how they should be


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> Mom, I am aware you are very respected member here, I applaud your efforts and concern, great ! I cannot speak for "longfisher" but we did PM each other and he showed genuine concern to keep the weight down and the exercise routine up. I am not here to judge per-se, I am here to learn and again I have mentioned this before. I feel the people, or at least a large percentage of them who can afford to lay out $2000.00 for a pup, may not be the choice of some breeder's>..
> -----


sehrgutcsg--

I am honored that you refer to me as a "respected member", but I suspect you are thinking of the other Mom whose posts are always informative...

That being said, my comments were concerned with only the breeder whose website Longfisher referred to. I am not and never have been a breeder. Many years ago I did pay very good prices for my dogs, sometimes it worked, sometimes not. All were good dogs, in spite of some with physical issues.

For nearly 15 years now I have adopted GSD rescues, no puppies. I do miss puppies, for sure, but as a caregiver for my disabled sister, I decided I probably cannot ensure that I have the tremendous amount of time it takes to raise a puppy properly. Some of the rescues I have had came with baggage, but caring for and training and re-habbing them still allowed more flexibility than raising puppies. And I have absolutely no complaints with any of my rescued guys. They all are and have been GREAT dogs, some from BYBs, others from excellent working bloodlines; I had only one that I knew was from show lines. He, too, was a great dog.

There are some statements you have made that have me a bit puzzled, I am not sure where you are going with this. But I did want to clarify that I was commenting only on what I had observed on the Giant German Shepherds website.

Susan


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

My Rocky came from a BYB (he's a rescue) and has "wobblers" so I assumed two dogs... hey let's do puppies!

Now I'm not so sure it was a "BYB"? He had some issues I had to work out I did a good job (people aggression ) today he's a great dog. He has sound temperament, good nerve and he was therefore me, when he needed to be! Seems a bit much for a crap shoot puppy??

I'm starting to think he was a "scratch and dent" puppy from a real Breeder? Maybe they had a bad one in the litter and he got sent out to a rescue? It was kinda vague how he showed up at a Rescue (I worked for) founder said a "breeder" turned him in I "assumed BYB. Don't know, but I do know I would like a GSD just like him (Minus the Wobblers)


----------



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I had a dog die of a genetic illness at age three that took her suddenly. I was 16. She was from a BYB, cost $250. The illness isn't something you can test for, but it is common in the breed. The thing is, it's really only the breeders who are trying to aim for something specific that take the time to keep records of how the pairings turn out, who will notice things that you can't test for and take them seriously. BYBs don't really have an incentive to prevent odd problems cropping up because their dogs are more or less interchangeable- they can just get another pretty purebred GSD if one of their dogs doesn't work out. Good breeders have generations of dogs that they have to be knowledgeable about- they didn't just buy two purebred dogs without knowing their history and hope for the best. Plus they are invested in the success of their own dogs beyond just surviving to produce litters.

Another thing I would like to point out is that if you are in doubt about whether or not you should buy from a breeder, spend more time with dogs they have bred and see for yourself whether or not you care about the quality. It pays to be picky, so if you don't believe what someone else online told you, go out and see the real deal.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

chip 
no good breeder would allow a puppy, no matter how scratched or dented, to go to rescue
good breeders make sure they know where all their dogs are no matter what their health
i dont think coming from a byb is a guarantee of poor temperament 
but when you purchase from a good breeder you are stacking the odds in your favor as the saying goes


----------



## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I found out about BYB's thru Boxers. Temperament, Nerve and bad hips aren't usually a problem. Getting a Boxer past 3yr 6yr or 10yrs is the problem!
> 
> My first lasted two weeks, Parvo took her.  Second one I did better 8yrs and then DM at 8.5, dedication ,care and heartbreak followed and she was carried "literally" across the finish line to 10 yrs.
> 
> So yeah....


That's so sad  it's hard to imagine so little time with a beloved friend. I had a friend growing up who had boxers. Sweetest dogs I've ever met. Not sure if they're known for being goofy little lovers but I was quite smitten! 

I'm not completely clueless (up for debate) as I know the risks with pet store puppies. My own best furry friend as a kid was a pet shop pup and he was incredibly old and blind at 7 yrs old. 
I was only looking for a family companion. I did look at many "dog breed info" sites that all raved about how GSD are loyal family pets. I didn't even know forums like this existed at the time. So... knowing I wasn't looking to breed or compete I thought it would be silly to pay 2k for a puppy (yes silly me) so I kept an eye on the adoption center and the paper. It was important to me to have a puppy since I have 5 children I figured we would be better off with our new addition growing up from a young age around the children. I ended up finding pups for sale in the paper. NOW I've read all through this forum and I'm terrified I've set my family up for heartbreak by stumbling into this blindly. We all love her so much already I would hate to see her suffer from poor genetics. I guess at this point only time will tell. 

Since I'm already writing a novel I'll add this. I'm happy I didn't see this forum before. I don't think we would have Zoe if I knew how much work they could be. I went into this fully committed to spending the next 1-2 years raising and training a puppy... Thinking at that point the hard work would be done. Now that we have her I am getting excited to do classes and hopefully find what she enjoys doing. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

While I personally do not like the roached backs of WGSL or the elongated stifles of ASL, I still would not buy from a BYB. Responsible breeders of ALL types of GSD's are credited with the following:

"Progress in hip joint phenotype of dogs in the United States between the 1970's and early 1990's has been shown through results of a retrospective study using the OFA data base. This improvement was evident as an increase in the percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype and a decrease in the percentage of dogs classified as having hip dysplasia (HD). The increase in percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype was greater for German Shepherd dogs, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Rottweilers than for all dog breeds combined. In addition, the submission screening rate for these four breeds was higher than the screening rate for all dogs." -- from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia

This is but one example of the attention paid to the health and soundness of dogs bred by good breeders, and is why I am willing to pay $2000. All that testing costs money. Ensuring that paired dogs are matched well according to pedigree, temperament and structure takes knowledge and experience. I have bred dogs for the conformation show ring myself (not GSD's), and I know from experience that it is a labor of love and little (cash) profit.

While it is _*possible*_ to get a perfectly healthy dog from a BYB, or one with health problems from a reputable breeder, I prefer to stack the odds in my favor. It is heartbreaking enough to lose one at a ripe old age; I do not care to go through that more often than I have to. 

My current GSD was found abandoned with his dam and 9 littermates. So far, he is sound in mind and body. However, I will be purchasing my next GSD from a reputable _*working line*_ breeder (already researching possibilities!).


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> chip
> no good breeder would allow a puppy, no matter how scratched or dented, to go to rescue
> good breeders make sure they know where all their dogs are no matter what their health
> i dont think coming from a byb is a guarantee of poor temperament
> but when you purchase from a good breeder you are stacking the odds in your favor as the saying goes


You get no argument from me! My next Boxer will be either a rescue or from a reputable breeder. Rescue the deed is done, I know the odds.

A GSD no way in the world would I buy from a BYB! I got lucky with my guy, I had no knowledge of GSD and I had alot of work on my hands and that was with a sound dog (except as noted) but a nervy skittish dog?? Yeah I'm out! NO BYB GSD FOR ME!


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I agree with everybody.. Or, I would quote and ask questions. Thanks to everyone who replied. !!!!

csg


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

OP. spend some time and work your way through this thread. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> Another thing I would like to point out is that if you are in doubt about whether or not you should buy from a breeder, spend more time with dogs they have bred and see for yourself whether or not you care about the *quality*. It pays to be picky, so if you don't believe what someone else online told you, go out and see the real deal.


Are you saying that a dog that doesn't come from a breeder isn't a quality dog? I was a deposit away from buying a puppy from a breeder when I found my boy at the shelter, I would not change the decision I made to get him over the puppy in a million years. I see dogs at the club all the time that come from breeders and I don't think for a minute they are of better quality then either of my dogs. Most of them can't touch either of my dogs temperaments or nerves and that is a fact.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> chip
> no good breeder would allow a puppy, no matter how scratched or dented, to go to rescue
> good breeders make sure they know where all their dogs are no matter what their health


I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes good dogs, through no fault of their own or their breeders wind up in rescue. Divorce, loosing house etc. I've got an AKC showline girl from well known lines, through rescue. When the breeder is hundreds of miles away and get a call that one of their dogs is in rescue they may, if they trust the rescue, say go ahead and find a good home. It happens more often than you would think.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes good dogs, through no fault of their own or their breeders wind up in rescue. Divorce, loosing house etc. I've got an AKC showline girl from well known lines, through rescue. When the breeder is hundreds of miles away and get a call that one of their dogs is in rescue they may, if they trust the rescue, say go ahead and find a good home. It happens more often than you would think.


The reputable breeder I want to do business with WOULD take the dog out of rescue regardless of location. Thus allowing the rescue to take in another dog in need.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ZoeD1217 said:


> That's so sad  it's hard to imagine so little time with a beloved friend. I had a friend growing up who had boxers. Sweetest dogs I've ever met. Not sure if they're known for being goofy little lovers but I was quite smitten!


 Most likely you met an American Boxer not a Euro the Euros are much more serious dog! The Americans Boxers are know as the clowns of the dog world and having spent the last 10 years with one, I would say...yep, pretty much so!




ZoeD1217 said:


> I'm not completely clueless (up for debate) as I know the risks with pet store puppies. My own best furry friend as a kid was a pet shop pup and he was incredibly old and blind at 7 yrs old.
> I was only looking for a family companion. I did look at many "dog breed info" sites that all raved about how GSD are loyal family pets. I didn't even know forums like this existed at the time. So... knowing I wasn't looking to breed or compete I thought it would be silly to pay 2k for a puppy (yes silly me) so I kept an eye on the adoption center and the paper. It was important to me to have a puppy since I have 5 children I figured we would be better off with our new addition growing up from a young age around the children. I ended up finding pups for sale in the paper. NOW I've read all through this forum and I'm terrified I've set my family up for heartbreak by stumbling into this blindly. We all love her so much already I would hate to see her suffer from poor genetics. I guess at this point only time will tell.
> 
> Since I'm already writing a novel I'll add this. I'm happy I didn't see this forum before. I don't think we would have Zoe if I knew how much work they could be. I went into this fully committed to spending the next 1-2 years raising and training a puppy... Thinking at that point the hard work would be done. Now that we have her I am getting excited to do classes and hopefully find what she enjoys doing.
> ...


BYB, real breeder or a pet store. There are no ugly puppies! Once you see them in real life...your done! Hopefully you got a good pup that you can love and care for and will have a long health life!

It does happen.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes good dogs, through no fault of their own or their breeders wind up in rescue. Divorce, loosing house etc. I've got an AKC showline girl from well known lines, through rescue. When the breeder is hundreds of miles away and get a call that one of their dogs is in rescue they may, if they trust the rescue, say go ahead and find a good home. It happens more often than you would think.


My guy was clearly damaged goods, don't know when his problem showed up. "If" he was from a real breeder he beat the odds! My heart broke when he arrived and "wobbled" his way towards me! ):

He defended me from charging dogs when I slipped and fell on ice while defending him! If he is a "scratch and dent dog" I got a bargain!


----------



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Are you saying that a dog that doesn't come from a breeder isn't a quality dog? I was a deposit away from buying a puppy from a breeder when I found my boy at the shelter, I would not change the decision I made to get him over the puppy in a million years. I see dogs at the club all the time that come from breeders and I don't think for a minute they are of better quality then either of my dogs. Most of them can't touch either of my dogs temperaments or nerves and that is a fact.



I should clarify- I meant if they are comparing breeders and don't understand why one charges more than the other, they should check it out until they are convinced it is worth it. Dogs from rescues come from all sorts of backgrounds so that's a different story.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Saphire said:


> The reputable breeder I want to do business with WOULD take the dog out of rescue regardless of location. Thus allowing the rescue to take in another dog in need.


I agree with this.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I want one of these mythical made of pure bread gsds, you know, for when i get hungry


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I want one of these mythical made of pure bread gsds, you know, for when i get hungry


lol so many kijiji ads are like that,

Purebread german shephard pupies.


----------



## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

I had to scroll down and see if I purchased a pure bread puppy... sounds like something I'd do 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

My dog is surprising me every day - growing fast - starting to charge around the house -stealing bacon off the desk - showing some bad habits - really really doing well - I must say that I'm very pleased with my puppy at about 13 weeks - last night was a little rough with possible teething so I gave her a stick to chew on in the middle of the night - but I guess everything good has it's price. I liked your other picture better Baliff. one of my favorite movies a couple of them were done by starting with; "Valley Girl" which my brother-in-law did the movie poster. "Family Man" was another.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

His best works were the crappy ones he did for drug or pyramid money


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Mikelia said:


> Of the three byb gsds I know two of them have hip displasia and the other is high strung to the point of neurotic and has skin issues. She is still quite young so we shall see how her hips hold out. Of the many, many, many 'american' style registered gsds I know (personally, I won't count the ones I know through their owners on the internet) not one has allergies, hip displasia, perianal fistulas, elbow issues, EPI. One is a little sharp but none have any major temperament issues.
> I work in a pet supply store and the only gsds that I see that are sane and well mannered in public are from registered breeders that work their dogs. We have a local registered breeder who imports dogs from germany and sells 'top european bloodlines' and every one of their dogs I have seen is a high strung maniac. They do not work their dogs, just try to make a profit off of 'rare champion german heritage'.
> IMO a registered dog, from a proven good kennel you have thoroughly researched is your best bet for a healthy, sane dog.


 
Your opinion is appreciated, but I am in the opposite thinking mode. Money cannot buy you; a better dog, 88% is just dumb luck. If your not into "paperwork" and just judge the animal on it's own merits, you will be defeated...


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mikelia said:


> Of the three byb gsds I know two of them have hip displasia and the other is high strung to the point of neurotic and has skin issues. She is still quite young so we shall see how her hips hold out. Of the many, many, many 'american' style registered gsds I know (personally, I won't count the ones I know through their owners on the internet) not one has allergies, hip displasia, perianal fistulas, elbow issues, EPI. One is a little sharp but none have any major temperament issues.
> I work in a pet supply store and the only gsds that I see that are sane and well mannered in public are from registered breeders that work their dogs. We have a local registered breeder who imports dogs from germany and sells 'top european bloodlines' and every one of their dogs I have seen is a high strung maniac. They do not work their dogs, just try to make a profit off of 'rare champion german heritage'.
> IMO a registered dog, from a proven good kennel you have thoroughly researched is your best bet for a healthy, sane dog.


A month late but...

How do you know by looking at a GSD that its from a registered breeder that works their dogs? Do the owners tell you that? How well do the owners know what certain titles mean or what is "proven" by seeing IPO3 on a pedigree?

I know hundreds of GSDs. I've seen plenty work/show ect. There is no telling by looking at a dog where it came from or how "responsible" the breeder is.

I've met an imported, "police prospect" that was purchased from the importer because of their great reputation and the dog is the biggest spook I have ever seen/met in my life. It was supposed to be a POLICE DOG.

Hip problems aren't exclusive to BYB. Plenty of "respected breeders" end up with HD pups and they mark it up to genetics, give the buyer another puppy, and call it a day...but a dog is still left living with pain and HD. I've seen those breeders continue to use the bitch or the stud that has produced a pup or two with HD...

I think the point OP is making is that your "risk" of a bad dog isn't that much less with a byb than it is with a "reputable breeder." Depending on your cost/benefit analysis, it is very easy to make the case that the extra $1000+ you're paying for a puppy from a good breeder, isn't worth the decreased risk you're getting because they claim to be knowledgeable.

We've had a few people that have gotten dogs from reputable breeders here, with amazing dogs in their pedigrees, that have ended up with fear issues and some have even bitten...if you look up some of those threads, the blame usually goes onto the handler instead of the pedigree/breeder. When the pedigree is non-existent, or the breeder is a byb, all the blame gets placed on the breeder. It's kind of funny when you read those types of threads and see how people are unwilling to accept that a good pedigree, doesn't always guarantee what you think should happen.


----------



## mrs.campbell (Apr 7, 2014)

This has been informative to say the least. I looked up the link on byb on google images and almost threw up in my mouth. I ask this and it may be subjective. IS a BYB the same as a puppy mill? Is it the Amish who are the puppy mills? Also, I do think that someone can breed a nice pup and not have a full blown kennel and not have to charge 2,000.00. I do understand though that Vet bills are high and so is dog food etc. Prices rise and there is inflation. What does one have to do to get a wonderful pet and not pay $2,000.00. I want a good family dog. 
I also noted someone posted about life length. My mom paid top dollar for a protection dog who died of cancer a few yrs after she got him. It tore her up. She adored that dog. We are talking big money 15 yrs ago. What should I expect the life expectancy of a well bred dog to live? 
I also, think there has to be some reputable people who don't have a kennel who breeds their dog with another decent dog and raises pups in home underfoot and doesn't have to charge 2,000 to break even. I am not wanting to show. I just want a dog to love, a GSD not an ankle biter.


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

mrs.campbell said:


> This has been informative to say the least. I looked up the link on byb on google images and almost threw up in my mouth. I ask this and it may be subjective. IS a BYB the same as a puppy mill? Is it the Amish who are the puppy mills? Also, I do think that someone can breed a nice pup and not have a full blown kennel and not have to charge 2,000.00. I do understand though that Vet bills are high and so is dog food etc. Prices rise and there is inflation. What does one have to do to get a wonderful pet and not pay $2,000.00. I want a good family dog.
> I also noted someone posted about life length. My mom paid top dollar for a protection dog who died of cancer a few yrs after she got him. It tore her up. She adored that dog. We are talking big money 15 yrs ago. What should I expect the life expectancy of a well bred dog to live?
> I also, think there has to be some reputable people who don't have a kennel who breeds their dog with another decent dog and raises pups in home underfoot and doesn't have to charge 2,000 to break even. I am not wanting to show. I just want a dog to love, a GSD not an ankle biter.


Mrs. C,

I wish there were an easy answer to your questions. Pay the money and risk it, if you have the money >? If your like me and question everything in life you are taught as a child, try to beat the odd's every chance possible, disobey real solid logic, take steps to make the worst scenario the best and have dumb luck on your side, search out something that makes you feel like you did everything possible to; "home" the right animal based on your morals. My dog came from the worst part of Los Angeles, CA the odd's were against her, I would not even drive there, we met at the vet however, the outcome remain's optimistic and she's one heck of a GSD.. Best wishes and welcome, you will learn something here, no doubt. !!! :wild:


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

mrs.campbell said:


> IS a BYB the same as a puppy mill? Is it the Amish who are the puppy mills?
> 
> What does one have to do to get a wonderful pet and not pay $2,000.00. I want a good family dog.


No, a BYB is not the same thing as a puppy mill. People's personal definitions will vary a little, but _in general_ a BYB is somebody breeding their own personal pet with a lot of love and a lot of ignorance. A BYB is somebody who's breeding their dog because "Fido is just the sweetest dog ever and everybody should want one of her puppies" or "I want my children to experience the miracle of life" or whatever.

They don't know anything about pedigrees or genetics or putting together a good match, they don't test or title their dogs in anything (they often don't even know about the existence of dog sports), and they are not breeding for any clear purpose or direction beyond "I love my dog." Their intentions are not bad, but they just have no _idea_ what they are doing.

Sometimes you get a good dog from these people. Sometimes you don't. It is basically pure luck, because they don't know enough themselves to give you any meaningful guidance.

A puppy mill, on the other hand, is one type of commercial operation. There are many others, ranging from small-scale commercial breeders who look like BYBs to big glossy commercial operations in ultra-modern, hospital-like kennels on giant manicured campuses. These people _do_ know what they are doing, and what they are doing is breeding dogs for money.

Sometimes they are highly knowledgeable about the breed and have a clear purpose to their program beyond that. More often they don't, and it is strictly about raising dogs as a commodity product for maximum profit.

Again, sometimes you can get a good dog from these sources (particularly if you're dealing with a commercial operation geared toward more knowledgeable buyers), but IMO the odds are considerably worse with the average commercial breeder than the average BYB, because they are often starting with worse stock and intentionally cutting whatever corners they can to maximize profits.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

As for the second part of your question -- "where do I get a good pet dog for < $2000" -- there are lots of threads and discussions about that question because it is not one that has a single simple answer.

The standard advice is: go to breed club meetings, go to dog shows, go to sport competitions. Meet the dogs. Figure out which ones _you_ like and would want to live with. Find out where those people got their dogs, and get in touch with those breeders.

Alternatively, or simultaneously, get in touch with local rescues. Put the word out that you are looking for a particular type of dog (and here I would suggest emphasizing the personality, energy level, and character traits of your ideal dog, _not_ the color or markings. Sometimes the perfect dog for your home comes in a package that doesn't look the way you expected).


----------



## Elsieb (Apr 9, 2014)

Our beloved byb gsd has had a difficult time since age 4 with sebaceous adenitis. I have been bathing/soaking tending his skin for the last 8 years and it has not been easy. Bathing and soaking him can take me several hours, luckily he has been an amazingly patient guy - I don't even need to tie him for baths inside or out - I am sure he knows I am doing it to make him feel better. He is nearing the end now but it breaks my heart that he was afflicted all his life with this horrible genetic skin disorder. The breeder was a catholic priest of all things. Our next dog will be from a well researched breeder!!!!


----------



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*Well the jury is in* - a good animal is not based on cost or who/where the dog comes from. $25.00 in 1960 is the same as $250.00 today. 
I musta got lucky...

SGCSG


----------

