# HELP my dogs are trying to kill each other



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Hi guys and gals, new to the forum here looking for some quick help. I have two un-neutered male German Shepherds from the same litter, about 13 months old now. I believe they are fighting for alpha because all of the sudden one day they just started fighting, not play fighting but fighting as in they want to kill each other. This has been going on for a couple weeks now. The day they started they haven't gotten any new toys, no new bones, no new nothing. Right now we have the separated because during the fight one of them got a nasty tear under his eye and nose, and the other got his ear ripped open in two spots.

They have plenty of toys to play with, we sleep in the same room, and there is always someone most of the day. Maybe an hour or two total a day they have alone. We take them on walks, and at night we have a laser pointer we have them chase until they are tired and no longer running at full speed.

They are treated as fairly as possible, like if one gets a treat then the other does two, they both got on a walk around the same block (I switch who goes first each day), etc.

We had them on a food with a minimum crude protein level of 32%, so we figured maybe that is too much so now we are on the cheap food with 27% crude protein. 

Another thing to add is that they are fine if someone new comes in that they don't see often, like say my uncle comes in that have no problem jumping and playing together with my uncle for a couple minutes, then they are back to fighting. I've put muzzles on them and still the same issue.

I believe they understand that I am the one in charge as when I say sit / down they will sit / lay down, they heel great on walks, etc.

I am almost positive that right now Dargun is alpha because Shadow is challenging him.

I am just out of ideas here and need help. They have an appointment to be neutered on July 1st, but we don't want neutered dogs. I want to be able to "fix" this problem. Anyone have any ideas?

Here is a picture of the dogs, this one is Dargun:









And here is Shadow:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Neuter them and rehome one. Hire a good trainer.

Those are your options. In my opinion, you shouldn't get advice over the internet but only from a trainer that is physically seeing the dogs to evaluate them.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Have them neutered for sure and hire a trainer to evaluate the situation.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Neuter. Stop with the laser pointer! Those just create more frustration than they help!
And yes, rehome one or always always always keep them separated!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

omg...NO LASER POINTER!

You are going to have dogs that are a wreck from OCD with those things.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

I read up on these laser pointers and it is GONE. Just making a clicking noise with my flashlight Shadow goes absolutely nuts and they both look for the laser.


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## Dragonheart (Jan 8, 2014)

*I have been through the same thing*

First of all your males will keep on fighting, and you will need to separate them. As what everyone else said fix both of them, and trust me that will make them stop. Because just like you I had 2 litter mates (I didn't know better then) and had lots of problems till I fixed both of them. Eventually I did Rehome the other litter mate, because you just cannot expect them to be well behaved when they are together. It makes life a lot more harder for all of you this way. You got a long way to go to make things better.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This is a real issue with siblings from the same litter, and one reason why responsible breeders will never place two pups in the same household, except in some very specific situations (working home for example, where the owners are experienced trainers, and each person will raise their own dog, and not let the dogs interact). 

This is NOT going to stop, there is no fix. You can keep them separated and crate/rotate for the rest of their lives, or you can re-home one of the two. Not an easy solution, I know, but those are the facts.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

My experience says to fix one of them, leave the other intact for a while then fix the other one. But I did it when they were a lot younger. 

My male littler mates lived together in peace until one passed away at 9 the other at 13.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> My experience says to fix one of them, leave the other intact for a while then fix the other one. But I did it when they were a lot younger.
> 
> My male littler mates lived together in peace until one passed away at 9 the other at 13.


Note: THIS ^^^ Is the exception to the rule. You can try neutering to see if it makes any difference. Frankly though GSDs are smart. Chances are if this has been going on for weeks as you say they won't suddenly forget they want to fight the other dog, even without their testes. 

It's not a nice welcome to the forum, and I'm sorry for that. Unfortunately too many of us have been in your shoes or known others who were and we are just trying to save some stress and bloodshed by cutting to the eventual decision the vast majority of people have to make. Crate and rotate for the rest of their lives or rehome one.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> My experience says to fix one of them, leave the other intact for a while then fix the other one. But I did it when they were a lot younger.
> 
> My male littler mates lived together in peace until one passed away at 9 the other at 13.



If you neuter one, you need to neuter the one who is the lowest in rank as it will widen the gap between them. If that doesn't work, neuter the other one as well. And a trainer asap.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> If you neuter one, you need to neuter the one who is the lowest in rank as it will widen the gap between them. If that doesn't work, neuter the other one as well. And a trainer asap.


 :thumbup: Yes this. It was a total accident it worked for us. It could have been very bad otherwise. You really should have a trainer or someone evaluate them. Never ever take internet advise on something this important!


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Ok, so since Shadow is the one starting most of the fights, then he is the lower one on the totem pole per say right? It might not be a bad idea to try and just neuter him because I'm pretty sure he thinks he's a lab lol. Dargun just likes to let the world go by.

My appointment is on July first to get them neutered, should I not even attempt to put them together? My thought is since I have roughly 2 weeks if I take them away from each other, neuter one or both of them and re-unite them, then they might be happy to see each other again?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you should find someone who is familiar with the breed and can evaluate them to determine which is more dominant than the other.

Glad your ditching the laser pointer.

Another thing that is kind of an issue with your post, no new toys, new bones, etc. They have plenty of toys. Dogs really don't care about the newness of things. They may find a ratty old piece of plastic bottle that they like, and that is just better than chopped litter. They would rather have that than a new kong. 

My point is, that if you are trying to manage a pack of dogs, in this case a pair of dogs that are very similar in their age, power, standing, then you need to be an excellent leader. It may mean for these boys that YOU own ALL the toys, ALL the bones, ALL the food dishes, etc. And you may let them play with your tug, with your ball, but you decide when and for how long and with whom. 

Ok. Since no one else suggested it, I am going to suggest reading up on NILIF, Nothing In Life Is Free. If you can reset, use crates, give supervised interaction, and individual training, you can probably get your boys over this hump. 

They are currently at the place of adolescent stupidity. Sometimes a sharp KNOCK IT OFF!!! will stop things before they go into the next stage. But I am not suggesting that at this point. 

At this point, I am suggesting reading up on NILIF, and start a new regime with your dogs because the current one is not working. Everyone in the home must be on board. 

You need to provide:

Management, so they cannot do damage to each other, especially when you are unable to supervise directly. 

Exercise, a tired pup is a good pup, they need their mind and bodies exercised every day. 

Leadership, NILIF can be a blue print for this. The dog has to look to you for what he wants, and he has to trust you to protect him. He needs to rely on your confidence and become the follower. A leader can stop two young males from fighting if they accept him as the leader.

Training, training exercises the mind and builds confidence and trust. Training helps us to build a lasting bond with the dog. 

Neutering the one who is naturally less dominant might make things better. It will remove the hormones. But if you neuter only and do not change your management, leadership, exercise, and training, I do not think you will be successful enough to keep both dogs. 

Good luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chiming in later than planned but you see the direction advise is going. 

If you insist on keeping both dogs this is going to become your life:
Pit Bull Rescue Central

Most likely you missed the "sighs" of trouble brewing?? If you crate and rotate then most likely you won't need to know this:

Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

You can and should train the "Place Command" in any case, it's in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6954578-post4.html

I seriously doubt that at this point "neutering " both or either is going to make any difference?? The time to act was before "problems" started!

And exercise and training are very important but so are "walks" with you one on one! That is also how a dog learns to trust you and understand that you have his back!

A "simple" lesson learned the hard way! Once this crap has started it very difficult to stop! If you really, really want to keep both a board and train with both dogs at a good facility would be the wisest and most expensive option.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To determine who is on top of whom: look at who usually gets his way in obtaining resources like toys or favorite sleeping areas, pushing the other away, the one that doesn't yield for the other etc. 
Some of the advice you have gotten is after the fact. You are dealing with the present. I would still neuter nr. 2 and implement the crate-rotate and other advice at the same time. If neutering works, you should see a change within a few weeks or sometimes even days. Up your leadership and step in at the first stare. NILIF treatment for both boys. Lots of separation and training (down stays!). Reward their good behavior in each others presence. Keep us posted. Good luck.
V-petn, please read this entire thread to see where you could be heading


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Little update, we determined Dargun is submissive by nature, so we neutered Shadow on the 1st. As soon as he got home he still wanted to fight (which we expected). Dargun just went with my uncle over the weekend and I just picked him up, but Shadow still wants to fight him. I did catch Dargun growling at Shadow first, but weather or not Shadow had a look or a stance going, I don't know. Of course they are separated right now.

If nothing changes we will be neutering Dargun in 6 weeks (my dad and brother leaves to NY tomorrow, and dad wants to wait until he gets back). I'm hoping things get better, Shadow has only been neutered for 5 days now, so based on what I have read this is normal. 

The laser has also been gone now for 2 or 3 weeks now.

What we are trying to do is essentially make them forget each other exists by not letting them see each other. Shadow is in my brothers room, and Dargun is in my room. Starting tomorrow when my brother leaves I will be have one in my room, and one outside for an hour, then switch. Is this a good idea? They obviously will still be able to smell that each other exists, but maybe if they don't see each other they will just forget about wanting to fight each other.

I'm starting to take Dargun to work with me more so Shadow can roam the house and the outside as he pleases (my mom and grandparents are home, so nothing bad will happen and he won't feel lonely). I would switch them, but I've had Dargun going to work with me since he was a pup so he knows how the program works, and Shadow is just a little curious George so I don't want him to hurt himself.

Right now I try to walk them both twice a day, once in the morning and once at night along with playing with them. Shadow like the water so if I have the hose on and squirt the water for him he will try and catch it. Dargun likes to chase balls around, so if I keep throwing a tennis ball across the yard he is happy.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I have heard that it takes time for the testosterone to decrease in the body. Doesn't happen overnight. Just an FYI


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I believe they understand that I am the one in charge......
> 
> I am almost positive that right now Dargun is alpha because Shadow is challenging him.


If your in charge simply say stop.

Why did this build up in the first place. Do the dogs know there is a consequence to there behaviors?



> Shadow is challenging him.


If I see this challenge or posturing, or blocking I let the dogs know this is not tolerated straight away. Verbally and physically if not understood.

I will let both dogs know that is not tolerated. If one dog is going looking for a fight I will let it know it will receive a serious consequence. It has to be done. Then the dogs can understand there place better and not try to boost there position by bullying another, or more seriously trying to kill another.

It comes down to pack structure imo.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

DutchKarin said:


> I have heard that it takes time for the testosterone to decrease in the body. Doesn't happen overnight. Just an FYI


If neutering works, you'll see a change within a week. You can separate them for several years and they will still fight when they see each other if given the chance.
If Dargun was the truly the one being submissive you should have neutered the other one first. Now the gap is even smaller.
And waiting for 6 weeks? It will be tough summer.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

MadLab said:


> If your in charge simply say stop.
> 
> Why did this build up in the first place. Do the dogs know there is a consequence to there behaviors?
> 
> ...


We're not sure why it built up. It just randomly started one day and never stopped.

They do know there is a consequence. They absolutely hate their muzzles and they know if they fight the muzzle goes on. We only have it on for a half hour so they don't get used to it. When we break up the fight we have them between our legs and squeeze on their ribs so it is hard for them to breathe. Along with that we put them in the kennel outside for a little bit. Right now it is extremely hot and humid out so it's not a pleasurable experience. They do have clean water out there.

One thing we have noticed is that once they are posing and growling, there is no stopping it. If we yell at them or grab one it startles them and starts the fight. Either way we yell at them then look at the second best move. It has worked a few times.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> If neutering works, you'll see a change within a week. You can separate them for several years and they will still fight when they see each other if given the chance.
> If Dargun was the truly the one being submissive you should have neutered the other one first. Now the gap is even smaller.
> And waiting for 6 weeks? It will be tough summer.


We did neuter Shadow first, Dargun is still not neutered. 

The summer shouldn't be too tough, this has been going on for a while now, it's just unfortunately normal. I wish we could have gotten Shadow neutered faster so they didn't have the 3 weeks to hate each other.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sorry to be the naysayer, but I do t think neutering them is going to help. 

It seems as if you guys are not catching the warning signs and only notice when it has escalated to a point a fight is inevitable. 

You need a trainer. Now. You need someone to show you the signs and how to redirect BEFORE they start staring each other down and growling. It's too far once that happens. 

This is a major disaster waiting to happen. Major.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Sorry to be the naysayer, but I do t think neutering them is going to help.
> 
> It seems as if you guys are not catching the warning signs and only notice when it has escalated to a point a fight is inevitable.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately as soon as they see each other, the posing and growling starts. There is no grace period.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with gsdsar. Neutering will get rid of that testosterone but its not going to be a fix for the fighting. I do agree with neutering both of them tho. The way I see it your options are 1. Keep them separated 2. Get a pro trainer in there to help/evaluate 3. Rehome one of them. Good luck


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> One thing we have noticed is that once they are posing and growling, there is no stopping it


There has to be a lead up to the posturing and growling. It is a look or a block or a raise in tension.

There also has to be a correction which the dogs understand rather than putting there muzzles on. I would communicate to the dogs that any posturing will be corrected immediately.

Maybe it is gone too far now, but a bit of discipline goes a long way imo.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Chiming in later than planned but you see the direction advise is going.
> 
> If you insist on keeping both dogs this is going to become your life:
> Pit Bull Rescue Central
> ...


Warning: Long response

Agree with Chip's advice. Our boys are 12 months old and are littermates ( not neutered). We'Ve devoted the entire year to their training and socialization and we NEVER leave them alone together. We leave one and take one or we take them to a petsitter ( not a kennel). Our boys are crate trained but we don't utilize the crates for separating while unsupervised. We used the crates if we needed to de- escalate their energy level or we saw that one wanted a break from the other. These times were usually for 10-30 minutes. Now twe've taken the doors off the crates and they use them as a den when they want some " alone time". They sometimes sleep in them at night.

At 8-9 months one started bullying, controlling, and occasionally attacking the other. We hired a behaviorist who, after evaluating them in our home, felt they were not acting aggressive towards each other during her visit and suggested it is probably part of a developmental stage. Her recommendation was to use the "knock it off" approach when one began controlling or bullying the other... In other words, make sure know growling and fighting is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. She also recommended we improve their recall ( Thievy are well behaved with great manners but recall has been the most challenging command. It is improving and now they both have solid, consistent recall for my husband but I'm still struggling with one ( the non- dominant one). 
This is a work in progress and we are NOT out of the woods. We occasionally leave them unsupervised for as long as 2-3 hrs but no longer.... it may be ok but we do not want to tak a chance. We plan to continue this until they are 3 years old and then may consider increasing their supervised time.
You should watch for the subtle signs.... by the time the fight begins, you have failed... You missed the signs. Our boys communicate with each other through subtle eye contact... the dominant dog will give the other a "look" and the submissive dog knows not to walk near the dominant dog. My job is to recognize the "look" and to manage the space so submissive dog will walk by dominant dog . That means submissive dog (Trapper) must trust that I will protect him from dominant dog ( Hawkeyes) and Hawkeyes knows Not to attack Trapper. Any aggression is not accepted. I do not hit my boys but I will grab their scruff and give a stern look and "knock it off" command. This seems to be working but we won't know for a couple of years.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> We did neuter Shadow first, Dargun is still not neutered.


I got the names mixed up. Sorry. If Dargun is submissive, he should have been neutered to widen the gap between them. But that is hind sight now. You have gotten great advice from many. Stick to it.
The problem is that they know how to fight and that is hard to break, neutering or not. So learn the signs of the first red flag.
Also realize that this is not a relaxed life for either one of them.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Quick little update, we decided that if we have hope of them getting along together we need to re-introduce them together at least like 5-10 minutes a day when I Get home from work and play with them (because they will be focused on me, not each other and hopefully be fine with each other). Now they are doing great, we spent the night together last night, and they spent all day so far together with about an hour total of alone time. We even had both of them in the van for a quick little bye bye trip to play in a different area. 

On another good note, most injuries have been healed!

Our only problems so far is there still is a little posing, and fur goes up but no growling. Shadow will usually duck his head and submit to Dargun, but we try and stop it as soon as we see it starting. Shadow essentially just wants to play and Dargun is still unsure right now. He is getting a lot better as time goes by. Hopefully next week we will have a really good update!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'll just share my experience and you can take away from it what you will. I had two male intact dogs. They weren't really friends but weren't enemies either. They got along fine until the week before the younger dog turned 2. Some hormones kicked in, and he decided the older male needed to go. This happened overnight. I have a photo of them lying in the kitchen with their heads on each others' feet, and two days later one attacked the other. I don't throw out the word "attack" lightly. They were not having a boy spat over a toy, a bone, a bowl of food. One dog started stalking behavior and would provoke and fight the other any chance he got. They were OK separated with a baby gate, not trying that hard to fight, but with friends and family coming over and my husband not being real dog savvy, there were a few more incidents where someone didn't keep them separate and a fight broke out. Luckily, one of my good friends was interested in the younger dog as a competitive Schutzund prospect so he took that dog and was able to keep him in a large kennel, or out with other dogs he has that weren't other intact males. So, I'm not really surprised that maybe there was no buildup. When dealing with intact males in this age range, they are really only just maturing at 18-24 months. Dog that were best friends as puppies may never tolerate each other at this point.

I currently have two male GSDs, father and son, but the younger is neutered. They started getting a bit snippy at each other as the younger matured, so I had him neutered because he's not a breeding prospect (he's missing a tooth), he was already quite physically developed, and I already had his hips and elbows checked to see that they were good joint and the growth plates closing. It took about 2 months after his neuter for my older male to no longer consider him intact (like stop checking where he peed and marking on top of it, etc). I don't leave two male GSDs together when I'm not around (one is crated or I take one with me), but otherwise they are fine, live together unsupervised. Every once in a while they will play together. I did the neuter not really for aggression, but to prevent all the marking. If I have another intact dog, my older intact dog constantly marks on top of wherever the other dog pees, so they will be peeing on the same spot back and for like 6 times each time they go out to potty and that drives me nuts. I do not believe in spay/neuter of puppies that are babies, but for non-breeding dogs that are physically mature, I will do it. However if these dogs were seriously fighting and trying to take each other out, I doubt neutering would help all that much after that behavior has already started.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've had intact males too. When Dubya was 2 and Rushie was 11 months old, Rushie started a spat with Dubya. While I was in there trying to separate the two of them WWIII broke out in the house as Arwen took her chance to try to kill Jenna and all the youngsters were pitching in. I got Rush out of Dubya's kennel, and locked him in, and then he joined in the fray. I jumped into the room throwing bitches into crates, three of them were mostly grown puppies, Heidi, Whitney and Tori, and I was able to grab them one by one and throw them into crates, and put Rushie in a crate, and Babs, and then it was just the two bitches, Jenna and Arwen, and those two were the only ones that had any blood, including the two boys. 

Now I have Cujo, Nder, Mufasa, and Oscar. Cujo is neutered. Nder and Moof are not two yet, and Oscar is not one. I kept Moofie and Cujo together for a long time, and the only gruffs I got was during feeding, and I just kept myself between them and re-directed when one decided he needed to check out the other's bowl. When Nder came back, I put him with Moofie for a while, but there was grumbling around the food dish after a few months and I put Moof back in with Cujo. I didn't feel that satisfactory, though long term. Oscar was in with his dam, but I ended up putting Cujo with Hepsi, Oscar with Odessa, Moofie with Bear, and Nder has his own kennel. Nder came back to me after attacking a terrier when six months old, so I think it would be slightly more irresponsible to leave him together with another dog when I am not there to straighten out any messes. Nder and Oscar are related to everything I own, save Odie and she's spayed, thus she is in with Oscar. Moofie can go in with anyone, even Cujo if he must. Oscar LOVES Cujo and Hepsi, and If I could I would put them together, but Hepsi is not spayed and they share a father, so, I can only let them run together when I am there. But there is no aggression between them. At the same time, Oscar has not reached maturity yet, and Cujo is altered. 

It depends on the dogs, but I think you have a better chance getting a couple of males to get along long-term, than expecting females to remain ok. I mean, you can see the boys posturing, and one will probably defer to the other, and that is the end of it. Bitches do not give up. Blood, injury, sisters, mother/daughter, often does not matter. Sometimes a good gap in between, or a strong dominant bitch with a naturally submissive bitch will work. Babs is not a strong dominant but she is almost ten. She was fine with Hepzibah, a sweet, calm, easy, submissive little bitch, until she wasn't. I came home and the two of them greeted me as usual, and as I brought Babsy out, she was limping, and then I noticed puncture wounds on her. Done. No more Babs in with anyone, or Hepsi in with another bitch. I lucked out, one of those bitches might have decided to kill the other, and I would have had no one to blame but myself.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Couple weeks later we are in great shape! A couple days after my last post Shadow reverted to full playful puppy, which did create a couple little issues. Shadow wanted to play and Dargun was in that unsure state, so they had a couple little arguments, but now they are both pretty much puppies haha. They play fight together, I even bought a tug-of-war rope to see what would happen, and they do just fine.

I can now take them both bye bye without worrying about them fighting, and I can leave them alone in the morning to take a shower. The only bad thing is they are back to working together, so they dig under the shed, and things like that. Oh well, I'd rather that than them killing each other. Right now I'm just glad to see them working together instead of against each other haha.

While we are on the topic, anyone have any idea to stop them from digging? I don't mind them digging under the shed because I know they do that to lay in a cool place. Once they can get in, they stop digging there so I just boarded off the base so they can't escape. The place I don't want them digging is a little dirt patch that's about 2' wide, and 20' long between the house and walk way. They just dig there to dig. I put the dirt back, and they dig more. I heard some people use citrus juice, so I went out to see if they liked lemon juice, and of course they hate it, so I drenched that area in lemon juice. Still didn't help. Used vinegar, that didn't help. I also bought that no dig stuff that smells terrible, and they still dig there. Anyone have any ideas? I might just go in and put in river rock because we never plant anything there, it's just dirt between the walkway and house.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have a couple diggers too. I haven't found anything to stop them except me being there and telling them to leave it, but they go right back to it when I walk away. I put down smaller river Rock and in one area they still dig that. Bigger rocks might work. I have s couple that carry those around too. We were having a family party and my sister says to me "do your dogs usually carry boulders into the house?" I said yes if they are GSDs My female carries them around like nothing, completely amazed my family.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I dumped a container of cayenne in a digging spot once. It worked for a while. Same thing works for counter surfing.

The other thing that's really important is put the dogs in the house if you are outside pulling weeds with a spade, planting flowers, etc. If they see YOU dig in the flower bed, they will understand that's a good digging spot. If they've watched you refill that spot with dirt a few times, they've figured out it's a place that "we" play in dirt (and they'll be curious what you might have buried).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Proper use of an E collar is going to be the easiest and quickest way. Other than that,rules, limits and boundaries. Dogs dig when they are bored. Up the exercise and train the "Place Command" it should be trained in any case:

Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! - TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE
The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog

As I said the E collar when used properly is the fastest and easiest way. But rules limits and boundaries as well as training an off switch, will get you there also.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Another couple weeks has gone by and we are still good. There is still a couple little posing issues once every 2-3 days. It's always when they get home from going bye bye and go in the garage, one will block the entrance. Sometimes it's Dargun, and sometimes it's Shadow. I know for a fact that Dargun is doing it to push Shadow's buttons, but I don't know if Shadow is doing it because he wants to push buttons or because he is waiting for me to open the door and doesn't understand that we need to get through too. Either way I just say "stop that", they look at me and all is good. 1 minute goes by and they are back to playing...

As far as the digging does, there is usually nothing planted in these areas, just some tall (3') cool looking weeds that pop up and is pretty much like a big bush throughout the summer, so we just leave them. Of course that doesn't stop them, so I put in some pavers and that of course stopped it. The areas I put down some 5/8- gravel they don't dig (I put it down in the corners of the kennel because of course they spread the dirt everywhere lol). I may just put some 5/8- gravel down then some river rock to make it look nice.

I do have one question. I got my wisdom teeth removed about a week ago, so during the first few days I was obviously moping around and not doing much. I stayed in the garage with the dogs though, the door was open and they had outside access but they only went out there to howl at the sirens, poop or pee. I figured this is normal beings that they like to sit by your side and protect you, but the day after my surgery I noticed they where mopey and sad looking like they where sick. Ever since I had been doing better now they are springing back to life. Could this be a coincidence that they both got sick for a couple days, or could it be them sensing I'm not 100% so they are feeling my mood and imitating it?


Other than that, life has been great besides the heat. It has cooled down over the past few days, even rained today and I spotted them laying together in the small kennel :wild: 










Those cinder blocks are there because we have a bed above that, so those are our steps to the bed lol. I usually sleep out there with the dogs unless my dad is home, then he will sleep with them.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The above picture freaked me out. The right dog is uncomfortable. One wrong move and theer is a fight and how do you solve that one? I would never allow this.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

I woke them up with the flash. As you can see Dargun is a space hog, he had his head near or on Shadow's butt and Shadow had his face at the door lol. Shadow is always on edge, and Dargun just doesn't give a care in the world (as you can tell by his ears in that picture).


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Just went out there to shut the door and was going to go to bed, but I had to grab this pic lol. This is currently how they are sleeping.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> I woke them up with the flash. As you can see Dargun is a space hog, he had his head near or on Shadow's butt and Shadow had his face at the door lol. Shadow is always on edge, and Dargun just doesn't give a care in the world (as you can tell by his ears in that picture).


Were they unsupervised before "you woke them up"? If Shadow wants to get out of the crate what would Dargun do? Let him step over him? I think from the title of this thread they each need their own closed crate. To me you play with fire. Just my 2 cents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> The above picture freaked me out. The right dog is uncomfortable. One wrong move and theer is a fight and how do you solve that one? I would never allow this.


 How do you solve it? You grab one by the tail and pull, then you get the door between them. I don't think it would be all that much harder than then sleeping outside of the crate. I would not lock them in a crate together -- though I have done that with dogs that are ok. But if they both choose to lie in an open crate together, I wouldn't worry too much. 

Unless they are both female. Which they aren't. Two boys might fight, but they are unlikely to fight to the extent females will. Unlikely is not 100% though. 

As for the dog being uncomfortable, Babsy always looks like that when I pull out a camera.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is what I have learned and observed (so far). If the less dominant dog is sleeping on a certain spot, the more domination one has the authority/right to join him. Most lower ranked dogs will move eventually. If the more dominant dog is taking up a spot, the lesser dominant one will not join (touching bodies) due to respect for the higher ranked dog. So my thinking was that if Shadow finds himself cornered in that crate corner, (was he there first?) he cannot freely leave. Or am I wrong? Maybe I don't get the dynamics clearly. It surely is interesting stuff from behavior theory point of view. I don't mean to nit pick, just trying to understand.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

As someone who keeps several unneutered working males in close confines I suggest the following.

Identify all the triggers for a fight. It can be common things like bones and food or something silly like getting into a confined space and someone getting bumped.

If you live with them then you should already recognize what leads to a fight.

Then you simply preempt any of this situations by either by warning them so far a verbal correction is all I need or ensuring each has access to the desired resource seperately or while giving plenty of space to the other.
(If your dogs do not have a healthy respect for you or you have poor obedience this will be hard)

Develope strong obedience on and off leash, if you have this kind of control you can stop fights before they start simply by issuing obedience commands. Example, come, out, heel, leave it etc.

Finally I do not allow any posturing between the males even if its playful. No bumping, sniffing, eye contact, chasing ANYTHING. This is step one for 99% of fights. 
They inhabit the same space they do not interact.

Or sell one and have done with it.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Were they unsupervised before "you woke them up"? If Shadow wants to get out of the crate what would Dargun do? Let him step over him? I think from the title of this thread they each need their own closed crate. To me you play with fire. Just my 2 cents.


My bed out there is right above the kennel. I was out there but there are stints reaching upwards of an hour where they are left unattended, yes. Generally they don't like the kennel which is wierd, Dargun likes to lay on the step in the garage to go into the house, and Shadow likes to lay under the counter by the door outside.

Dargun is easy going, he gets stepped on a lot lol. When they play fight he is always the one laying down. If Shadow wanted out and stepped on Dargun there would not be an problem. They both got in there willingly, I'm surprised Shadow stayed beings that Dargun crowded him.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> This is what I have learned and observed (so far). If the less dominant dog is sleeping on a certain spot, the more domination one has the authority/right to join him. Most lower ranked dogs will move eventually. If the more dominant dog is taking up a spot, the lesser dominant one will not join (touching bodies) due to respect for the higher ranked dog. So my thinking was that if Shadow finds himself cornered in that crate corner, (was he there first?) he cannot freely leave. Or am I wrong? Maybe I don't get the dynamics clearly. It surely is interesting stuff from behavior theory point of view. I don't mean to nit pick, just trying to understand.



By the way Shadow is in the crate I am going to assume he was in there first because he likes corners and tight spots. Sometimes a little too tight lol. They have no problem touching bodies, when we take them bye bye in the van, the back seat lays down and they generally both lay on that together. They are good in my truck too but there is just no space back there so I will only take one dog at a time in my truck which means they don't get to go in my truck lol.

As far as their attitudes, Shadow is in a confused state right now. They both live in the same household, but Dargun is primarily my dog, and Shadow is primarily my brothers dog. My brother works out of state so Shadow doesn't get to see him very much so all Shadow knows is his dad is gone and he doesn't know why. Dargun I think is the most mellow dog I know lol. You could do anything you want with him, set there moving his legs while he is sleeping, use him as a pillow, he won't move. He just doesn't give a care in the world. When other dogs are around he might look but he doesn't really bark. The acception to that is when sirens are around. When police sirens go by, both dogs go out there and bark and howl. Anyone have dogs do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUI6iw3H78A


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think that shadow thinks his dad is gone. 

You are anthropomorphizing the dog. He knows that sometimes someone comes home that he likes a lot, but you are the head hancho. Perhaps he is having more trouble with Dargun because Dargun is naturally farther down in the pecking order, but because he is your dog, you are unconsciously favoring him and the dogs are picking up on that.

Maybe it is time to tell your brother that the current situation is not working out. 

Back when I had Arwen and she was two years old, my BIL died and my brother had to move back in with my folks. They were ok with that, but not with Jazzy coming to live with them. Jazzy was a 3 year old high energy, high drive, working line bitch. She came to live with me. 

Jazzy was not my dog. Arwen was my heart dog. But the two girls were both beautiful and I had them together, and they seemed ok from April until July. Then I went on vacation for 1 week. My brother took care of the girls. He said he didn't like the way they were acting. 

I came home and took over and within days, WWIII happened. All three of us ended up in the ER. The girls both needed drains and stitches and my leg took over a year to heal. My brother returned his dog to me the next day and for two years it was Crate or Kennel /Rotate at my house. 

Boys are usually not as much trouble as females. Usually, they determine who is the king and it is all over, usually without any blood at all. Unless, the people aren't on the same page as the dogs. 

Dogs fight when they are close in power and close in their natural tendency to be the top dog. If you have a natural follower and a natural leader, things seem to be fine. But sometimes human interference in the natural order can tip the scales, especially with younger dogs who are not well entrenched in their position. 

It is not necessarily the dog that is quicker to fight that is the natural leader. A strong leader rarely needs to fight. Their overall bearing just lets everyone know that they are the at the head of the class and everyone accepts that. 

While I was on vacation, the pack order had changed, and I was the only one that didn't know and accept that. When I went to love on Arwen first, it was ON, take no prisoners. Arwen was not a natural leader, like Jenna is. But neither was Jazzy. So the two of them were quite happy to kill each other and let God sort it out. 

Would I do that again for my brother? 

Probably. I love dogs, and I can keep dogs separate now with little fuss. Jazzy did not get the kind of care that people here give their house dogs. She was primarily kept in a kennel and eventually she was housed with another, younger male, and she was happy. She loved me until the day she died. I had her for 2 years so she was 5 when she went back to live with my brother and became the pampered house dog. She lived to be 13, but when I would come over she was head over heels in love with me. Which shows the ability of dogs to forget and love unconditionally. When I think of the things that happened when I had Jazz -- how I put a runner up between the front door and the tree out front and put a house out there for her, and a bucket of water and went to work. On my way it started to rain. When I got home, my front yard looked like a mud pit and that dog was mud from her tail to her snout. And then when I tied her runner up behind the shed where the ground was dryer, and she wouldn't come out of her house. I called her, I ordered her, finally shaking she came out of her house, and I was like, What the.... Then I noticed the cable she was tied to was making contact with my solar-powered electric fence. I felt terrible. The poor dog. 

I couldn't leave her in the house because Arwen destroyed five separate crates of various kinds. Jazzy went through my window, yupp the glass 3 separate times, going both in and out. She ate my television antenna cable -- I haven't had any channels at home since then. 

One day before the fight, my neighbor called me to tell me the girls had dug a hole beneath the gate of the kennel and were having a wonderful time going in and out through it, and the water that that quickly gathering. 

Finally, the concrete was poured and the kennels went up, and I was able to keep the two of them safe, and clean, and comfortable. But Arwen was my dog and Jazzy was my brother's dog, and Arwen came with me when I could, and Arwen came in at night. 

They would fence fight along the 25' length of the kennels. And I didn't do anything about that until I had a seven week old puppy and Arwen tripped over him while fence fighting and picked him up like a squeaky toy -- after running and barking they would often pick up a squeak toy and squeeze it making it squeal. I was right there and Arwen left off immediately, but I realized that the fence fighting had to stop. So I put up a huge tarp between them so that they could not make stupid faces at each other. 

Jazzy was a nice dog for all of it. And I was really happy when my brother bought his house and was able to take her home. She deserved a home where she was the center of the universe. She was there. He eventually got a male GR, but he never did anything with him. And a younger female, and they got along, but Jazzy was the Queen. 

As much as she liked me, she hated Arwen. And I wouldn't even walk down his road with her, because Jazzy would have gone through the window to get to her, even years afterwards.

I think you might want to talk this out with your brother and see if there is a different arrangement that both of you are ok with.


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Our current living situation is we live with our parents (he is 18, and I'm 17). Both him and my dad fly around for work and come next April, I will be too.

I can absolutely believe that Shadow picks up on the fact that I like Dargun better. Even though I spend equal time with them and they are treated as equals, there is still that subconscious feeling that I like Dargun better which I believe Shadow picks up on. 

So far they haven't went through great lengths to fight each each other, but if they did I can guarantee it would be Shadow doing most of the work lol. I came home from work one day and put a ladder on the inside of the kennel against the fence so I could go around back and take it over the fence into the back yard and Shadow climbed up this ladder to get over the fence.... Shadow is an athlete though, he can jump 6' and run like wild.

One thing I have found is they do not like to be separated. If they are separated for any length of time, then they start posing and acting like they want to fight. All I have to do is tell them to knock it off and usually it works but there has been a couple times it hasn't. The only acception to this is bath time. They can smell the other took a bath and instantly does not want to take a bath lol.

Right now I'm just going to continue doing what we are doing, pretty soon here things will get a lot easier. I start school again soon so I will be in the garage all day doing school so I am with them. Eventually I would like to be able to train Shadow to be able to come to work with me like I have Dargun so I don't have to leave them alone when I have work.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> Our current living situation is we live with our parents (he is 18, and I'm 17). Both him and my dad fly around for work and come next April, I will be too.


So wait... 7 months from now when your father, brother, and you are all traveling for work, what happens to the dogs? Who's going to continue to monitor them constantly to make sure peace is maintained?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> Right now I'm just going to continue doing what we are doing, pretty soon here things will get a lot easier. I start school again soon so I will be in the garage all day doing school so I am with them. Eventually I would like to be able to train Shadow to be able to come to work with me like I have Dargun so I don't have to leave them alone when I have work.


That doesn't sound you have a problem actually? There is a lot of LOL in your posts. Are things much better now? What am I missing?


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## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> That doesn't sound you have a problem actually? There is a lot of LOL in your posts. Are things much better now? What am I missing?


Things are pretty much back to normal after Shadow got neutered. Shadow is back to his puppy like self, and Dargun is back to not caring about anything unless food is involved. Like I said there is still a little bit of posing, but past that we are back to a loving household maintaining 3 male dogs (the two GSD's of course and a yellow lab).



Kahrg4 said:


> So wait... 7 months from now when your father, brother, and you are all traveling for work, what happens to the dogs? Who's going to continue to monitor them constantly to make sure peace is maintained?


My mom will still be home, and our grandparents / aunt live with us as well. Lots of love to go around. These are all people who have been around since they came into the household so they will just notice yet another person gone, but the same people are still around.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And they will be seven months older, and both neutered by then, might be ok.


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