# Agility Course Map - Where are the crosses (lead changes?)



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)




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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rear cross at 6 which should push the dog to change from a left to a right lead.
Front cross at 11. Again changing handler position should push the dog from a right to a left lead.
Rear cross at 16.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

What's going on from 1 , 2, 3 ?????


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

You would have to do a front cross at 2.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would start the dog on my right, with a lead out straight up send the dog to 2, tight Rear cross right before 6, pull to weaves, front or rear tight after 11/rear after 16.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would start with my dog on the right also. I looked at starting her on the left and a front cross on 2 but she's a novice so I think she would take 14 instead of 2. 

Or she might decide to check the fence perimeter at top speed for any dangers so the next dog was safe and secure. She's done that before.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I would:

Start with dog on left
Lead out pivot 1-2 (which means a front cross at 2)
Rear cross 6
Push on her line from 11-12
Rear cross 12
Push on her line from 16-17
Rear cross 17

[Edit]- Off topic, but MRL- were you in Ft.Wayne, IN!?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh... I like Jax08's front cross at 11. My issue is I am never fast enough to beat my dog to a front cross. However, in this case, the 9-10-11 pinwheel might actually make that possible. That would be a risky move for me and Pimg at this stage of the game, but perhaps when we make it to ExA/B with more training, that might not be so risky.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

GREAT JOB SO FAR!!! More to consider below! :wild:



MaggieRoseLee said:


>


Would anyone see an advantage in being on the left side of the dog as they go over 6 and then crossing as the dog lands to get to the weaves?

From 10,11,12, if the handler stayed on the right.... would that cue the off course jump (that has no number on it?). What handling moves would take the off course jump out of the picture entirely for the dog so while they were taking off for 11 they'd only be seeing 12?

THe line from tunnel, #16, 17, 18... if the handler's plan is to stay on the dogs left as they come out the tunnel and go to 16... as the dog gets ready to take 16, FROM THE HANDLER POSITION, would the dog be more likely to guess the course continues to the left with the off course #4/#11 jump? Is there something the handler can do (have done?) as the dog exits the tunnel that takes the off course 4/11 out of the picture?

Is it better to push (be in our dog's way to block) the path of the dog to show them the direction? Or is it better to be able to attempt a handler move to show them where to go.

How does actually walking a course differ from just looking at a course map?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok- I'll play.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Would anyone see an advantage in being on the left side of the dog as they go over 6 and then crossing as the dog lands to get to the weaves?


The only advantage I can see from not rear crossing 6 is that it pulls the dog further out from the weaves in order to help setup a better weave pole entrance. I see this as entirely unnecessary unless your dog struggles with on-side weaves.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> From 10,11,12, if the handler stayed on the right.... would that cue the off course jump (that has no number on it?). What handling moves would take the off course jump out of the picture entirely for the dog so while they were taking off for 11 they'd only be seeing 12?


Entirely depends on the dog. And the handler. If the handler just stands in the middle of 9-10-11 to do the pinwheel without hauling  to get in front of 11- then yes, I think the off course is a strong likelihood. But it would be (as usual) entirely the handler's fault. The way I see it- as soon as the dog has committed to 10, the handler should be hustling over to the right wing on 11, indicating a slice. The handler needs to be pointing at 11 while shoulders are pointing at 12. It's just a slice at that point, and there shouldn't be a reason for the dog to want to take the off course. You might even support this with your off hand.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> THe line from tunnel, #16, 17, 18... if the handler's plan is to stay on the dogs left as they come out the tunnel and go to 16... as the dog gets ready to take 16, FROM THE HANDLER POSITION, would the dog be more likely to guess the course continues to the left with the off course #4/#11 jump? Is there something the handler can do (have done?) as the dog exits the tunnel that takes the off course 4/11 out of the picture?


Again- I think this entirely depends on the dog. If the dog is very velcro, then it may want to turn into the handler. But in actuality- this setup is not much different from 10-11-12. It's just a slice. In fact, there is a perfectly straight line out of the tunnel, over 16, and onto 17. If one has put in the practice on slicing jumps- there shouldn't be an issue. Now, if you aren't fast enough and your dog is way ahead, then sure- there could be issues here. That's all part of knowing your dog (and how well you keep up with them). For my dog, she doesn't particularly rocket out of tunnels. So in sending her to the tunnel, I'd be sprinting to that 16 jump to ensure that I am at her side when she makes it to the 16. I'd just paint the line to 17, and move forward with the rear cross.

Is there something the handler could do to take the 4/11 out- well sure. The handler _could_ rear cross the tunnel entrance to put themselves on the right side of the dog. While an interesting thought- I posit that making the handler's line longer than the dog's line is a good way to have your dog end up _way_ ahead of you. I'm not sure this is a great move unless you are crazy fast (or your dog is crazy slow). IMHO, of course. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Is it better to push (be in our dog's way to block) the path of the dog to show them the direction? Or is it better to be able to attempt a handler move to show them where to go.


Totally dependent on the dog. Pimg responds to pushes way better than pulling.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok I'll play to I'm lousy at c/p quotes but willgive it a try:



> Would anyone see an advantage in being on the left side of the dog as they go over 6 and then crossing as the dog lands to get to the weaves?


I agree with Wildo / I would do that rear cross before the 6.



> From 10,11,12, if the handler stayed on the right.... would that cue the off course jump (that has no number on it?). What handling moves would take the off course jump out of the picture entirely for the dog so while they were taking off for 11 they'd only be seeing 12?


depends on the dog, I know if it were my dog (sami now passed), I would have been in that center area of 9/10/11 her off MY left, and most likely do a front cross right in front of 11 (while she was doing 10) and as soon as she committed to 11, a good shoulder/body pull body pull to 12. 



> THe line from tunnel, #16, 17, 18... if the handler's plan is to stay on the dogs left as they come out the tunnel and go to 16... as the dog gets ready to take 16, FROM THE HANDLER POSITION, would the dog be more likely to guess the course continues to the left with the off course #4/#11 jump? Is there something the handler can do (have done?) as the dog exits the tunnel that takes the off course 4/11 out of the picture?


I agree with willy on this one to,the dog has a straight line from the tunnel over the 16/17 jump IF the handler doesn't do any pulling..



> Is it better to push (be in our dog's way to block) the path of the dog to show them the direction? Or is it better to be able to attempt a handler move to show them where to go.


Personally, I have never 'blocked" anything, again depends on your dog whether there is a need to block..I was always pushing/pulling and did alot of screaming back then LOL..Can I say I was never a SILENT handler? LOL I was so lucky to have had a dog that was sooo responsive to body cues as well as my big mouth


As for walking vs studying course maps..I never over analyze. I would walk a course and break it down into segments,,walk it with my dog's path in mind , always wanting to make that path the easiest for the dog. usually I walked a course at the most 3 times,,then stand on the side, and again, break down into segments, and look at the overall picture. 

When you overanalyze, overwalk and overthink the possibilities, I think it then becomes a big blur..Of course expect the unexpected but when you break it all down, it's knowing and trusting your dog, as well as sticking to a plan to make it easy for the dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Bump! MRL- we're all waiting... :rofl:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Bump! MRL- we're all waiting... :rofl:


:wild: :wub: :wild: 

There's no 'right' answers cause how you train and where you are in training with your dog makes a difference. Plus if you have a blazing fast dog, or a slow steady dog, then that also affects how you run the course.

I know I am TRYING to give more information as early as I can. So for both Bretta and Glory, 'pushing' information is late for them and they are looking at me figuring it out which is exactly the OPPOSITE direction I need them to be focused on. So the earlier I can give them the information on setting the line for the course so they are looking ahead is better. 

This doesn't mean I don't push on a course, one of Glory's trial video's (last one) I had to push at the end cause the bends in the course wouldn't allow me to get ahead and the broad jump wouldn't let me do a rear on a green dog, so we pushed and she got it. 

MY GOAL (and I'm not always there) is for my dog to be able to run as fast as she can knowing where she is going as EARLY as she can so she doesn't have to SLOW down to check in. Almost 100% of the time, when I push, I'm right beside my dog.............this means we are running the same speed..............which means she's having to slow down.

So I'm trying to give information not just for the obstacle we are currently doing (she is doing  ) but as many obstacles to come that I can. Distance and lateral work is helping me get to where I need to go, and setting my dogs line helps my DOG get where they need to go!

*As far as the rear cross before the weaves....*this is where you know your own dog (or not  ) In class, I'd absolutely rear cross the jump and Bretta would nail it. At a trial????? No way. She gets extra ramped up at trials PLUS look at that fun speedy line of jumps to the weaves. For Bretta, who tends to turn fairly tight with a rear cross, and where the start of the weaves are, I'd have at least a 25% chance of her missing her entry and tearing into the poles at between pole 2/3. Doesn't matter we train for this. Doesn't matter she 'knows' better. What I KNOW is we've missed too many weave entries in situations like this and when you have to run with NO mistakes in excellent, I take the extra sec to make sure she gets a bit better entry at speed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> *As far as the rear cross before the weaves....* I'd have at least a 25% chance of her missing her entry and tearing into the poles at between pole 2/3. Doesn't matter we train for this. Doesn't matter she 'knows' better. What I KNOW is we've missed too many weave entries in situations like this and when you have to run with NO mistakes in excellent, I take the extra sec to make sure she gets a bit better entry at speed.


Well, this I can agree with! I think this is absolutely part of knowing your dog. For whatever reason, Pimg is very good with her off-side weaves. She is very good with rear-crosses on weave entries. However, she kinda sucks at on-side entries and I tend to have to support them more. So weird that she nails the hard entries, but struggles with the easy ones. So I can agree- supporting that entry so you don't get a 2/3 entrance might not be a bad idea. I have _almost_ enough jumps to setup this course in my backyard. That's my plan for today... :wild:

(Well, I have enough jumps- I just don't have jump cups yet for half of them.)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok, here's my take on the course. Note- this is a long video at 13mins... Also, I just uploaded it- so video quality should improve with time. Enjoy.

(Yes, Pimg ran the course totally clean, in 25 seconds! Granted, it is condensed to fit in my backyard, but I was jumping her at 24" -something I've only done one other time. So very proud of my girl!)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nice!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Really well done! Love the course analysis!

And I TOLD you the rear cross to the weave can be tricky 

I agree that taking the far side of the tunnel at the end (rearing?) wouldn't ever work. Really would cue the jump to the RIGHT as the dog exited, not where you wanted to go. You really have to have the distance to front cross as the dog exits, or do the rear like you recommended...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> And I TOLD you the rear cross to the weave can be tricky


Indeed you did! :rofl: I have to say though- this is _not_ the response I expected from you. Did you notice that when she didn't take it right, she actually turned away from me after the jump? She was on the wrong lead! I thought for sure that you would point that out... Every time she jumped towards me over that #6 jump, she nailed the weave entry. But if she jumped away from me (and spun) then she missed it. That happened a couple times- though I was lucky that our very first run through she got it.

I don't quite get it yet. For one, she's still a pretty green dog- and I'm most certainly not very clear in my handling skills. So that has got to be a big part of it. But when I watch the video (at 5:48) and she turns away on that rear cross- I am not sure why she is on the wrong lead, how I would notice it, and what I would do about it... 

[EDIT]- One thing I did notice about that particular attempt (at 5:48) is that I was pointing with her rope ball in my hand. Perhaps she was just moving towards her ball?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> I don't quite get it yet. For one, she's still a pretty green dog- and I'm most certainly not very clear in my handling skills. So that has got to be a big part of it. But when I watch the video (at 5:48) and she turns away on that rear cross- I am not sure why she is on the wrong lead, how I would notice it, and what I would do about it...
> 
> [EDIT]- One thing I did notice about that particular attempt (at 5:48) is that I was pointing with her rope ball in my hand. Perhaps she was just moving towards her ball?


One thing my instructor yells over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

and she has to keep yelling cause we mess this up all the time.. :wild: :wub: :wild: 

Is that our DOGS need to be ahead of us for a good rear cross. That's part of our cue (go ahead, take the jump, I'll meet you on the other side) us having them AHEAD of us. If we rush to the jump WITH the dog then they will also rush and NOT have the time to make the lead change BEFORE THEY TAKE OFF, when we suddenly dart behind them in a hard rear. The addition of the toy in your hand gives more handler focus which will also keep your dog looking and on YOU, and since you are on her left it would tend to keep her on that lead too.....We need OBSTACLE focus for a rear cause they need to leave us, go ahead, take the jump and we meet them on the other side!

Our GSD's are HUGE/long and they have 4 legs to deal with to make that lead change in the stride BEFORE they take off. So if we aren't able to give them the rear cross info early, they take off on the wrong lead, LAND on the wrong lead, and have to take the back spin or fall on their face!

Wildo, the fact you even recognize there is a 'lead' thing going on and that's why you got a back spin puts you so far ahead of many people that have been training for years! You'll see back spinning all the time at trials and hear people say 'I wonder why that happened?' with no clue. 

But when you KNOW that a turn involves the dogs legs and their lead, you can also be thinking of when and how to manage it so the EARLIER they are on the correct lead you can give EARLY information on the direction of the course PLUS prevent the knocked bars and confused dog (handler  ) that the wrong leads can cause!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> But when you KNOW that a turn involves the dogs legs and their lead, you can also be thinking of when and how to manage it so the EARLIER they are on the correct lead you can give EARLY information on the direction of the course PLUS prevent the knocked bars and confused dog (handler  ) that the wrong leads can cause!


I think you are correct here. I am still having such a hard time "reading" the lead, but I do know that the dog is required to have their outer-most leg forward to make an inner turn. So if they want to turn left, that is initiated by their front-right paw being forward. If they want to turn right, their front-left paw should be forward. That's info from the agility nerd site.

So I wonder if you can extrapolate that and say that the paw they put down first after a jump would indicate their lead? If so, then there was clearly a lead change between these two jumps. Since I am leaning in for the cross (but not by much _at all_) I assume Pimg made moved to her left lead because 1. she was turning to the ball in my left hand, and 2. I didn't signal that cross early enough...

Maybe. Haha- this lead change stuff is difficult!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Maybe. Haha- this lead change stuff is difficult!


WOW, well done on the video!

I know I can't 'see' my dogs lead while we are running unless I just know I'm going to trip and fall or crash into equipment. :wild:

So I just 'know' the dog is on the same lead as the side I am running on.....*UNLESS*........... I do something (that the dog recognizes  ) to give information to make my dog change it's lead. That information can be done with a front cross, a rear cross, a blind cross, or any other way I change sides.


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