# how to tell if it's fear aggression or aggression?



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi,

Please, without pointing me to a book or a cd or any other kind of learning tool - because I'm going blind and getting dizzy from reading to much and all that's happening is I'm more and more confused with everything I read. It would sure be nice if people could agree on "when a dog does this it means _____" and there was only one answer but every trainer or behaviorist seems to have their own ideas and interpretations. There are even variations between the most respected top trainers/behaviorists.

It's imperative that I learn the absolute simplest/quickest way how to tell if a dog is displaying fear aggression or out and out being aggressive to other dogs and/or people. 

I'm thinking there's got to be a way to condense all that I've read into one or two simple sentences on behavior displays that make things crystal clear without a doubt. Thanks.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

maybe if you explain some incidences and how your dog reacts in situations we could then try to help.
how old is the dog? has it had lots of socialization? classes? etc.

i think most aggressive acts stem from fear, especially in younger dogs. confidence building and the right guidence will help.

debbie


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

Dozer used to bark out of fear at bigger dogs. I could tell when it was out of fear because he would have his head down, tail down low, hair standing up and he would actually bark alot BUT back away. 
When he barks out of being "unsure" or when he hears a noise outside or when he is "unsure" about someone coming near the car it is a different sounding bark, much deeper, only a few barks and he stops, his head is up much higher, tail is even with his back and he does not back away. He has never shown aggression, EVER. He no longer barks out of fear because I bring him to daycare now and he is fine.
I can read my dogs body language and I am sure you will be able to also.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Good luck.If you get a real answer I'll be surprised .I always get the, take him to a real trainer to see what the problem is.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

it's funny. this question comes up every few months i think. i have yet to see an agreement on this. throw excitement into the picture and you get a mess. is there a be all end all guru on dog body language?


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGGood luck.If you get a real answer I'll be surprised .I always get the, take him to a real trainer to see what the problem is.


I agree with Allie, usually instead of advice you get told you have no control over your dog and it is out of control and it fears everything.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

I would think that that is my unprofessional opinion that most aggression has an underlying reason there is not just aggression but a reason for it.

Fear aggression I am going to say because I am working with it right now is due to an anxiety state that turns into fear and then reaction.

I have read and heard that the "whoo whoo whooo" bark that you hear is an anxiety bark. 

You can read a dog's body language first you will see the anxiety in the dog, then you will see a more dominant like behavior behavior and then the reaction either growl and then bark, growl only or just excessive barking and the dog is escalated to a point where you have a hard time calming him down or listening to you.

We are having a behaviorist to our home in the next month to work on Sonny's anxieties which is where is reactive state is coming from. His is very mild but it can worsen of course without proper action plan. 

We have only had Sonny for 3 month and once we can nip the anxieties he has which turns him reactive to strangers that walk through our door we will really have the "perfect" dog lol because all around he is amazing.

I hope that makes sense.

I talked extensively with the behaviorist and we both agree he is not in protective mode but his anxieties and past expeirences are in the back of his head and he react.

Watch your dog all the time that is what I do, I always watch Sonny when we walk, when we are at the dog park, at the pet store, when people come over when you sit and watch your dog you will learn to read him and can help him cope.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Quote: Originally Posted By: AllieG
> Good luck.If you get a real answer I'll be surprised .I always get the, take him to a real trainer to see what the problem is.
> 
> 
> I agree with Allie, usually instead of advice you get told you have no control over your dog and it is out of control and it fears everything.


Because people can't see the behavior and are very hesitant to label it. A wrong label can produce disastrous results because you can tailor your behavior interventions based on one thing, and if it's another, you can really mess things up. So if it's a fearful dog, labeled as just aggressive, and you give it corrections, you end up with a sneaky fear biter. Which is way worse than your retreating fear biter! 

Like giving someone insulin, when they need a thyroid med. 

I took my oldest dog to be evaluated by a great trainer, and was able to manage his behavior for his whole adult life, with no bites, other than at the vet office (and they don't count







). From being dominant aggressive with kids to being fear aggressive with adults-he had an array of issues and I got a behavior plan that worked with all of them. 

To me, fear aggression is from a fear response-fight or flight. So if you look at the causes of the behavior, I think sometimes you can tell just from that. A person in a big coat, a person with a funny gait, a dog of a type that they have had bad experiences with...

The dog sees something and depending on the type of fear aggression, their predictability, etc., will go back from it (while displaying a bluff reaction) or go toward it, but can be reeled back in. And are thankful that you did!

I don't know if I've met a ton of dogs with just natural aggression towards things that is not controllable. Dogs have the capability for the aggression, but do not exercise it. An aggressive dog that has the capability and is unable to control it or have it be controlled-I haven't seen that much-maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places. I think I've seen more fear aggression (from what I can tell) as opposed to regular. I could be wrong and hope someone like Chris or Val or any of the others who have a good handle on this will post. 

http://www.k9aggression.com/ haven't posted that in a while. It has a list of types of aggression. 

I think a lot of times, NILIF and consistency OVER TIME cures "aggression" that people are actually creating in their dogs through inconsistency and laxity.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

If in doubt it is probably fear/insecurity based since most fall in that catagory.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Great post Jean! It is hard to tell because I think each pup has their own way of showing, even though some things might be the same.

With Rocky being 3 I can not tell by his bark how he is feeling but I would not base this only on his bark. Reason being, at least for Rocky when he was scared, he hardly ever barked. 

Riley's mom can you give some examples of what you are experiencing?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The ONLY way to know if it's true aggression or fear aggression is to release the dog and see what they do. If they rush the other dog but do NOT engage them, back and back away - it's fear. If they rush the dog and attack - it's aggression.

Not exactly something you can safely do.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

As others have stated since we can't see the dog(s) in question then we can't give a definitive answer. There are a lot of factors that are in play; owner/handler and dog both living breathing things that have different personalities. Different skill level of the handler, different level of nerve thresh hold on the dog. These things can play a huge part. Then throw in a dog like my DeeDee who will throw mixed signals which I believe is due to her Vaccine reaction where I almost lost her, I think it short wired some things in her brain.

So I think people are being cautious on giving you set answers.

A good trainer will get to know your dog and then apply different pressures to see what reaction the dog is giving. From that they will come up with a training/handling routine that will be beneficial to you.

Another reason why people are not going to say it is this or that or do this as a fix or do that as a fix, is that you as the owner will go see the trainer with this information in your head as gosspel and possible down play or discredit the trainer. Having a qualified person see you and your dog is the best information you can get. 

Val


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Dozer head down, tail down low, hair standing up and he would actually bark alot BUT back away.


I'm not an expert...but I think this is probably the "run-of-the-mill" reaction that many dogs show when they can't 'flight' from a fearful situation. BUT...every dog is different...and they'll have their own quirks as to how exactly they react. They're sending out a "warning" if you will...trying to avoid an actual aggressive reaction. Most dogs will avoid fighting when possible.

IMO...a good way to see if it's fear based is to watch the dog. Does he try to avoid the situation first, or is he initiating it? When fearful, dogs will 'flight' first...so if he's backing up or trying to avoid a reaction altogether, it's probably fear based. Or does it seem like he's being territorial/dominate? Without knowing more about what's happening, it's going to be hard to figure out.



> Originally Posted By: DozerWhen he barks out of being "unsure" or when he hears a noise outside or when he is "unsure" about someone coming near the car it is a different sounding bark, much deeper, only a few barks and he stops, his head is up much higher, tail is even with his back and he does not back away. He has never shown aggression, EVER. He no longer barks out of fear because I bring him to daycare now and he is fine.


As far as this goes....fear and unsureness go hand in hand. The unsureness has to be based somewhere, and fear is usually the culprit there. If you really think he's unsure, barking less or keeping his head high or tail even doesn't mean fear isn't the base of his timidity. Just because he hasn't shown aggression or isn't visibly acting scared (barking a whole lot with his tail down or whatever), doesn't mean he's not fearful. As far as the aggression goes...he probably never was provoked/approached enough to create a reaction. An unsure/timid/skiddish dog are all very similar (those are usually fear-based feelings), and an aggressive reaction stemming from there can be initiated in a split second. 

Not to get too much off topic from the original post here...but what you're describing Dozer sounds like an alert bark not an unsure one. A noise outside and 2 or 3 ruffs is an alert bark. Now...someone approaching you on the street leading to some barks or something...that's more likely unsureness (and probably fear based) in my experience. They can be aloof or more cautious with age, but unsureness in a young dog has to stem from somewhere. 

------------------------------

At any rate, Riley's Mom, there has to be something that the aggression is stemming from. I think that out-and-out, baseless aggression is more rare. It usually stems from fear, food, territorial, etc etc. Something has to cause it. I'd say you should contact a behaviorist. Even though everyone has a different opinion on paper, they'd likely come to similar conclusions when they evaluate a particular situation like yours.

Good luck!


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## pjindy00 (Feb 19, 2007)

It think the problem is there is no definitive way of telling. There are things you can learn to pick up on once you see them, but unless someone can show you in person (see this, look at that), it's very difficult to learn, and nearly impossible to describe in print. 

Plus, even many (if not most) aggressive dogs ime became that way out of an initial fear response that was misinterpretted and handled improperly. Again, however, how it's handled can vary dog to dog.

I think that's why you get a lot of "talk to a trainer" responses - it's not something that is easily diagnosed over print. Videos may be more useful, tape your dog in the situations that you are wondering about and post a video link - you could probably get a better response. However, each dog is different, and without a good history, it can sometimes be hard to tell which it is.

My dog gets "worried" - she wants to focus on the other dog, or back away from the situation. If she can't "get away" then she will react. Training and positive experiences have lessened these responses, but I still have to keep an eye on where she is mentally in any given situation. Time has helped me to learn her particular reactions to things, and now that I can read her better, I can respond as needed. Our other dog responds to things very differently when she's scared of something, and completely different things worry her. 

Hence why you can't just get a clear answer - there isn't one!


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Well, hey I FEEL your pain & at wits end with people (trainers) not knowing what's up with our boy or how to really help ! Hate the reading tons of crap & just want some advice on what to do or try.









I have called another trainer out of this area & not sure if it would be the right thing to do or not. They said, many people claim their dog does not like other dogs, etc & they put them in a room off lead with other dogs & owner watching from a far to see what happens. They said, the dog is normally fine & will go play & this is a dog the owner claimed was dog aggressive or didn't like dogs. 

I'm not sure if I want to try this with Storm or not ? I do & I don't. Don't want to just for the fact if something goes wrong he will hate or fear dogs worse.

I don't get barking out of him. He will be fine, in a down or sit being good & if he hears a dog somewhere, he will start to look & if he sees the dogs, might be fine, if the dog comes rushing at him, there's when the lundge & wierd sound comes from him. He gets nervous acting to at times when in the petstore & dogs around. He takes treats fast in nervous from hand & not wanting to take his eye off the other dog.

In classes with dogs he knows, he is fine. Last night, some even got right in his face excited & he didn't do anything. It's the new dogs out in public.

He is getting way better, but would love to see him over this hump & not sure if it's fear (which I feel is 100%) or aggressive................

Best of luck to us both ugh...............


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

people can give advice here and it can be very helpful. but with cases such as aggression issues wether it be fear or true aggression, someone really does need to evaluate your dog, then once you know what the real issue is you have a base to work with, and seeking professional help is honestly the best advice.your only going to get frustrated by trying to figure it out for yourself. and in cases like these aggression issues, its best to address it sooner than later.

debbie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGGood luck.If you get a real answer I'll be surprised .I always get the, take him to a real trainer to see what the problem is.





> Originally Posted By: LandosMomit's funny. this question comes up every few months i think. i have yet to see an agreement on this. throw excitement into the picture and you get a mess. is there a be all end all guru on dog body language?


LandosMom, you're right, you need someone really good at body language to help evaluate, and Allie, that's why most responses include that recommendation to a trainer. It would be completely irresponsible to "diagnose" many of these training issues without seeing the dog and the interaction. Half the time the owner doesn't even know what they are doing that is contributing to the situation, thus the need for an independent *visual* evaluation.

As for the aggression, I think that true aggression is pretty rare. I think, like many here, much of it stems from fear, primarily lack of exposure, and lack of real training. In many cases, it can also stem from medical issues. Other types of aggression are just reactions to previous situations that weren't handled correctly. Pure aggression? I think quite rare.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with all responses,,true aggression is most likely pretty rare.

As for the suggestion on going to a behaviorist trainer/ my thoughts are this : if you are sick, do you read up on it? maybe. Do you self medicate? maybe, if these things aren't working , you'd be smart to go to a Doctor,,a professional to diagnose since what your doing isn't working. 

I also agree that trying to diagnose WHY a dog does what it does, in regards especially to aggressive issues, via the net, is not really valid..It would be like diagnosing why your sick via the net. We can't see it, we are hearing ONE side of the story, etc.

No matter what a dog does, it has a reason for doing it, WE may not know the reason (and to bad they can't tell us!) but there is always a reason in their mind. 

Diane


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I have to say that I was proud of Dozer today. We went to Salem, MA and there are ALOT of people and dogs walking around. He walked around on a loose leash with me ALL day and just walked by everyone and their dogs without even acknowledging them. I think all the socialization, training and daycare have really paid off. I always have him around people and at places but he is familiar with these places. Today he was out of his element and totally laid back and comfy. The only thing he was afraid of was a loud motorcycle but he still didn't bark, just stopped and watched it but was leary. Strangers were even telling me how impressed they were with how laid back he is and well trained. There was one dog that was actually barking at him, he showed the start of getting ready to bark back and I just jerked the leash to break his attention and he carried on walking.

So I think that socialization is key.


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Christian2009
> 
> 
> Dozer said:
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jess, sounds like Dozer is coming along nicely, congrats on a "good day" !! Keep in mind he is still a puppy and alot of them do go thru weird behaviors because of immaturity..I have found my ddr dogs espec are 'late bloomers' ) He sounds pretty normal to me )
diane


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGGood luck.If you get a real answer I'll be surprised .I always get the, take him to a real trainer to see what the problem is.


We've had one behaviorist who 'diagnosed' him as dominant and "dog rude" because he tried humping her dog. We had one trainer who 'diagnosed' him as extremely dominant based on the fact that he put about a 7mos old pup on one side of a fence, mine on the other. Mine sniffed the pup and immediately peed on the little guy. Second trainer tells us he doesn't see dominant in him and can't figure out why the other people do. His take on the pee'ing on the pup was that my dog had to pee and that it didn't mean a thing that he did it on the pup. 

Can you see how I get the notion that I can't trust a trainer's opinion? I get different answers depending on the trainer.

The rescue we got him from felt he was submissive personality as did the gal who owns the pet store here and has obed classes. She rolled him over on his back and rubbed his tummy which he enjoyed very much, he was about 8mos old at the time and she told us a dominant dog would never let a stranger do this. These comments were both made when he was under a year old.

So, even the trainers don't agree on what he is and this does not help the situation at all.

If you raise your voice, like if hubby and I get into an argument or even so much as raise our voices - he heads for his crate and will stay in it until things are calm. If you yell at him (which a few times I'm ashamed to say I let myself get to frustrated and I yell) he cowers and will down himself. Our female just lays around, doesn't move or even seem the least bit phased by loud voices. 

Being the inexperienced person I am with dominance/submissive/aggressive or fear - my take on a dog that would be aggressive is that he's not going to go hide in a crate if voices are raised. I feel that's the sign of a submissive fearful dog and that a dominant aggressive dog would perhaps even growl at the person with the loud voice and if it were really aggressive it might even approach the aggressive sounding person and might not be very nice about the approach. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!


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## ellen366 (Nov 2, 2007)

a few of my observations over the past 30+ years are:

fearful dogs often wooowoooowoooo when they bark; truly aggressive dogs have deeper, throatier, solid barks

fearful dogs back up and advance, back up and advance; truly aggressive dogs stand their ground and/or advance toward the target

truly aggressive dogs bite and fearful dogs nip then retreat (this is not to say that these nips don't cause injury, they do); what i'm referring to is more the hanging on; a confident dog will bite and hang on til he's done biting; a fearful dog is like a hit and run artist


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DSuddRiley's mom can you give some examples of what you are experiencing?


Thank you for asking, yes I sure can. I apologize it's so long.

*1)* He's reactive with other dogs when the other dog approaches him/us such as by charging, lunging, jumping up or at him/us. I do not trust him with little dogs as I'm 99% sure that would be prey for him. He once was very aggressive with about an 8wk old pup that came to our house. On the other hand has been known to play nicely with a litter of pups (this was when he was with his first trainer).

But there's a couple of twists to his reactive side ... 

Last couple of months I can now walk by a house with a dog that goes nuts in their yard and Riley will now just keep walking. We have been literally charged by two dogs (2 different dogs & two different instances and they were stopped by their chains before they could reach us but one was w/in inches of us) and he kept walking even after we jumped sideways away from the dog that was so close to my elbow another 6 inches and he'd have had me. 

Used to be he would react badly to every dog that barked or ran to it's fence or whatever. He seems to have calmed in this area greatly on walks anyway. What I did here was to switch them to the necessary side of me when I see a dog ahead so that I'm between my dogs and the stranger's dog. Since then I've been able to walk past a house that has a GSD that goes nuts with Riley on the same side of me and he keeps walking







He may look, but he doesn't strain to look, he no longer pulls me in the direction of that dog - he just walks







I've even had it happen recently a couple of times that he CAN be on the same side as the dog (like if they catch us off guard) and he's not reacted.

Twist: A person and/or a dog cannot walk past our house without him exploding at the window which we've been workning hard at and has improved greatly.

Twist: He was just recently put into a pen of about 20 dogs by this new trainer and played the submissive role w/o a problem. He did try to get a little rough with a smaller dog (15lbs or so) the little dog gave him what for & took off running. Mine followed for a short distance and then apparently decided he didn't want to run that fast and turned around and walked away.

*2)* He's reactive where people are crowding him and/or me, people hovering/leaning over his head unless it's me or hubby (family?). He's swung his around and snapped at someone's hand once where there was like 7 people hovering over him - I was right there in the center of this along with him and touching/petting him so he was not alone. He growled in such a way as the 7 people moved in a fashion reminiscent of the parting of the Red Sea as quickly and as far back away from him as they could get. (This would have made a hilarious video if it wasn't so NOT funny.)

*3)* Shortly after we got him (7mos old) my Mom stepped over him dozing on the floor and he swung his head up and nicked her fingers w/his teeth. We (including Mom) don't think he meant to bite we think his mouth was just open but you could definitely tell he didn't like this motion because there was a very slight growl emitted. Found out much later that one should never step over a dog (you're invading their space thing) especially a strange dog and we'd only had him for maybe 3 days. So, this was an uneducated-stupid-human thing. After all, how would I know if he was as comfortable with us as we immediately were with him? Family members can step over him no problem. 

*4) *He's had absolutely no interaction with human infants until this incident, unless he did prior to us adopting him. Friend came over w/their 2mos old. Friend changed the baby on the table and he watched very intently from a standing position tried to stick his nose in where the changing was going on but we wouldn't allow that. He went to reach for baby's toes, we told him no and he backed off. Mom picked up the baby and he jumped up at baby again trying to grab baby's toes and we grabbed him down. There was no growling and it did not seem like an aggressive act but he was very intent & waaayyyy to focused on this baby. To this day I cannot figure out what he was trying to do. The only thing that comes to mind is that he thinks babies are toys and wanted the toy. It did not seem at all like he was aiming to hurt that child on purpose. I wish I could explain it better. He was promptly removed from the room never to be allowed near a baby again. Just a little to scary for us and my hubby has nerves of steel and even HE got nervous when this happened. *(See #6 for a related incident.)*

*5)* We considered him to be over-protective of me for a very long time but since I learned that people often-times misinterpret overprotection and it could be fear aggression my opinion is wavering between the two now (maybe some of both?). I recently heard that male GSD's will protect a female owner more-so than a male owner. This came from a trainer who's a friend of a friend kind of thing, says he sees this quite often in his training groups.

Hubby is to freakin' proud of the fact that he doesn't have these problems come up when he walks the dogs. He's constantly saying "I don't have problems with them because they know I'm the boss." Ok, fine, maybe because he's a stronger personality than me, maybe because he's male and just MAYBE the fact that he's gone all week on the road so it's just me and the dogs 95% of the time so the chances of incidents when he's got the dogs is well below the % of chance for me to have incidents. This in itself in my opinion, tosses a monkey wrench into the over-protectiveness theory and that I'm not a strong enough personality theory he's got going about all these things that have happened.

*6)* The other day on our walk we came across a Gramma w/probably 18mo-2yo Grandson who was calm and quiet just standing there holding Gramma's hand, didn't say a word. I was between them and my dogs who were standing on my left. Gramma and I chatted a moment, I asked the little guy "can you wave g'bye?" He raised his hand to wave, at the same time his eyes moved to look at Riley and out of the blue Riley moved like the speed of lightening toward him, growling. I hollered "HEY!" and snapped his leash and jerked him away and put me in between the two again and put him into a down immediately. 

Now the trainer told me that if Riley really wanted this kid, I would not be able to stop him. I was told by others that if a dog is going to bite there is no warning, they just bite. This gives me a little bit of assurance that he wasn't going to chew this little guy up but why the growl and the lightning move towards him? 

*7)* He's reacted when a few people have looked him directly in the eyes or when someone is walking fast towards us. The current trainer we went to last week puts no creedence in people looking a dog in the eyes and the dog becoming reactive. But I've seen this happen with him on more than one occasion and so I can't discount it. I don't think there is anyone that can convince me that my dog is not reactive to being looked at in the eyes.

*8)* Last year we had a new vinyl floor installed in the kitchen. I had just finished bringing the dogs back inside from a potty break and was putting the gate back to keep the dogs in my office. Riley was laying down behind me to my right, Nissa sitting next to me on my left. I had trouble w/the gate and so the floor guy came over to help, bent down and reached for the gate. No warning, no growl no nothing - Riley nailed him in the back of his hand and was back laying down like nothing had happened before I could blink. 

*9)* Twice now he's jumped up and grabbed the clothing of someone passing us on the sidewalk from the opposite direction. The first one was walking and the second one was a jogger. The jogger I contribute to the fact that things running past a dog are sometimes considered prey - but that is still absolutely no excuse for him to jump at a person and in this case, he not only jumped and growled but snapped and nearly got this guy's hand.

Hopefully, that will give ya'll a enough info to provide some opinions. I am definitely going for a thyroid test on him hopefully this week.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ellen366a few of my observations over the past 30+ years are:
> 
> fearful dogs often wooowoooowoooo when they bark; truly aggressive dogs have deeper, throatier, solid barks
> 
> ...


This *GREAT* info, thank you!!!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangThe ONLY way to know if it's true aggression or fear aggression is to release the dog and see what they do. If they rush the other dog but do NOT engage them, back and back away - it's fear. If they rush the dog and attack - it's aggression. Not exactly something you can safely do.


Could this be tested with a fence in between the dogs or would that not be an accurate test?


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTAs for the aggression, I think that true aggression is pretty rare. I think, like many here, much of it stems from fear, primarily lack of exposure, and lack of real training. In many cases, it can also stem from medical issues. Other types of aggression are just reactions to previous situations that weren't handled correctly. Pure aggression? I think quite rare.


I understand and believe that a dog is not aggressive just to be aggressive, that 99% of dogs are not born with aggressive personalities and that there are reasons a dog reacts aggressively. But if you have a dog that's bitten that means it's showing aggression at the point in time the bite occurred. If the person who was bitten decides to sue your butt, you're going to be laughed out of court if you try to defend what happened with things like "My dog isn't aggressive he was afraid so he reacted." 

Unfortunately, our society doesn't discern as to reasons for aggression. Aggression is aggression in their minds and it ends there. They don't give diddly squat the hows, the whys or the "it can be fixed." It goes from "the dog bit" to "the dog needs to be put down" and not to often do you find to many steps in between.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I hate to say this, I don't have too much info to give, but with what you have said it may be best to muzzle him on walks. At least until he can be sorted out, even if it is fear, his and other's safety is at risk. Anything can happen, and I'd hate to hear that he bit the wrong person who then got him put down for it.
Especially since he's a GS(he is, right?) a lot of people think them aggressive, as well as some other breeds, and it would make a great headline too.. 
"Vicious German Shepherd Mauls Innocent Passerby"
My friend had his Dobie put down after it nipped someone's child who ran up behind him on a walk, grabbed a hunk of the dog's skin and scared the crap out of it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I agree - I was trying to think of a nice way to say it but this is a dog who regardless of underlying cause needs to be protected from himself. He is looking like he is not capable of making good decisions consistently so you have to make them for him. Your husband may be projecting that confidence that relaxes the fear part of the aggression. Just a guess on that. In that article it lists different types of aggression. 
I also tend to walk or take a dog like this out at off times if possible, on a tab/traffic or 4ft lead holding it low. Or I don't take them out much at all because I know I need to protect them more than they need the outing. I am fine with having a non-pet dog (and not saying all should) and do not see their quality of life to be any less than dogs who go out a lot. 

Does UWisc vet have a behavior clinic? Tufts in MA has one that you can fax to. 

Hope a medical cause is a big part of it. 

I would up my leadership and desensitize and shape behaviors as if fear was a part of it, because that seems likely to do the least harm, until I was able t determine which typeS of aggression I was dealing with.I'd also up any mental stimulation and would check into herding (w/ muzzle







) 

Good luck and thanks for sticking with him. I really am amazed at how far these dogs can come.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jean, you are right and your last sentence said alot. They can overcome these behaviors. I have a FA girl who is now 2yrs 4 mos. She has really settled down and we don't have many instances of her aggression at all anymore now that she has matured mentally. Onyx is dominate in the pack structure, but out of her comfort zone would get snarky & unpredictable. We have been thru obedience, CGC which she passed in a kennel club and at the Schutzhund club, and a control unleashed class. We are now doing agility and she is doing well with not focusing on the other dogs. She will never excel in SchH as she freaks during the bitework observation. Thinks the dogs are being harmed or something. I still don't trust her around young children, as it is hard to desensitize her(we are not around little kids enough and I wouldn't subject them to her) But everything that in the past she was reactive to, she has gotten over. Riley sounds so much like Onyx in the behavior with the baby especially. Last night we had a family birthday party with about a dozen strangers(relatives to us, strangers to the dogs, no young children) Onyx was fine with them as long as she was the one doing the first sniff. And I told them to just walk in as if they owned the place and ignore the dogs. Not one negative incident at all in her behavior. A year ago, she would have bitten if she had the chance, and had to be crated during the same gathering. There is hope!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl Riley sounds so much like Onyx in the behavior with the baby especially.


This one really bugs me, I wish I could figure out what the heck it means because he was not aggressive in his approach, just way to rough for a baby or small child. I think he would have intentially bitten the baby as in being aggressive -not as a bite, it would have been accidental like grabbing a toy roughly. The only thing I keep coming back to is that he thinks they're toys and that they're HIS toys or something. Very strange. I can't let him around babies and little children of course. I can't work on that either because we have no little children or babies in our world and like you I would not use real humans anyway. I did try a doll, but that was a waste of time, he wasn't interested in that at all - figured out right away I was trying to fake him out. He does great w/our 3 grandkids all aged 6 and up, though. He and the 6yo are great buddies! He loves it when Braden comes over to play w/him. Because of what I've seen though, I won't let him around kids he doesn't know.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I suspect Riley is less of a threat then most dogs and doing very well. Just a hunch.

As for young kids and playing with dogs, I remember a few years back seeing this video of a large GSD playing with this little child on Youtube. I thought it was cute and sent it to my Breeder. Her comment was please don't past this along. Allowing that type of play is irresponsible and dangerous.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Riley's Mom, just read this: http://www.rileysplace.org/about-us/rileys-page Since you really don't know his background, I'm thinking more _reactive _and _unsocialized_, rather than aggressive. I still think the medical checkup is important, and everything else that you are doing is important too.

He sounds a lot like Max when we first got him. Not very controllable, reacted to everything. Immediately bonded to me (overly bonded), seems to have those "gender issues" with responding to commands, etc.


But more important was his background. Someone bought him because he was a _Shepherd_. And, by gosh, they were going to train him The Way That A Shepherd Should Be Trained. Supposedly that meant some sort of training similar to police training. His next owner thought this was cool, whatever "police training meant", and thought that training meant that when they played, and if the owner turns and run, the shepherd is supposed to "take him down". If they see anything was suspicious, the Shepherd was supposed to Investigate and Handle The Matter (whatever that means). All this, because, Isn't That What Shepherds Do? The Rules of Engagement, as taught by these former owners, are not the same rules that you or I would value. I suspect, the way that these rules were taught, would also not be valued by LE either.

What did that mean for me? He came to us at almost 2 years old. It meant that when he came to us, he was unfazed by a choke collar and a prong collar. You could correct him until you broke his neck, it wouldn't matter. He was brought up so that the "shepherd was in charge", and he tried to assume that role, though he didn't have the paws, or the wisdom, to fill it. He communicated with his mouth, his teeth, and with growly noises, or whines. He has never barked, unless he is barking *at* something -- the bark to communicate was somehow trained away from him. He does not bark to speak to you in any manner, no matter how hard I try.

Moving body parts were "meant" for him to use his mouth on, because that was what he was taught. Anyone that turned away from him, he was supposed to grab them. If they turned away *and* moved away, in his world, he was supposed to grab them and pull them down, adult, child, infant. Eye contact was his permission to make his move. For some, that meant a full-paw jump on the chest, others meant full out barking and teeth. 

And you know what? Max really doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. Btw, he does have autoimmune thyroiditis. Addressing that helped, but it hasn't been his real issue.

My point? 

You don't know what was "expected" of him in his previous life. 

Some of these dogs aren't aggressive, neither fear nor otherwise. They are reactive. And because you don't know his background, you don't know what rules were completely imprinted on him in those important years. He may very well be reacting under the rules of engagement that he was taught, on purpose, or inadvertently. It is important to remember that, most likely, _ in his mind, he thinks he is behaving correctly_. He may not understand your corrections because they are most likely part of the game that he was brought up to play. Or at least his interpretation of that game. He wasn't taught to learn, but to react, so he continues with the behaivours that were imprinted. So the challenge is, how are you going to break that cycle? Not saying I have the answers, just that I might know the right question.

You have already made some progress in teaching him new rules of engagement. It's tough to undo the things that may have been strongly imprinted at a young age. It's tough to find new ways to communicate. 

I understand that you are looking for the right "labels" that fit him. But I suspect that you will not find them.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangThe ONLY way to know if it's true aggression or fear aggression is to release the dog and see what they do. If they rush the other dog but do NOT engage them, back and back away - it's fear. If they rush the dog and attack - it's aggression. Not exactly something you can safely do.
> ...


No, a fence between, is similar to dogs on a leash. The interaction has then been altered, and true aggression can't be determined. 

Now if he's literally biting through the fence, that might give you a clue. But you need the dogs to be able to see and interact with each other freely to get a true evaluation.

If Max is in an ex-pen, he will rush forward, he will bark, all his hairs will raise, etc., It's a completely different reaction if he is out in the open.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTRiley's Mom, just read this: http://www.rileysplace.org/about-us/rileys-page Since you really don't know his background, I'm thinking more _reactive _and _unsocialized_, rather than aggressive. I still think the medical checkup is important, and everything else that you are doing is important too.
> 
> You have already made some progress in teaching him new rules of engagement. It's tough to undo the things that may have been strongly imprinted at a young age. It's tough to find new ways to communicate.
> 
> I understand that you are looking for the right "labels" that fit him. But I suspect that you will not find them.


LisaT,

You are so right that we know nothing about him prior to 7mos of age when we got him, which does make things harder in my opinion. We do suspect some kind of mistreatment when he was a baby since whenever voices are raised in our home, he heads for his crate and doesn't come out until it's calm again. Nissa who we got from the breeder at 3mos old, is not phased at all by loud voices. When you see how "ferocious" he can be, it's really amazing that something like loud voices not even directed at him would send him scurrying for safety. The first time this happened, we were flabbergasted.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's really tough. Heck, he may not have been mistreated, but maybe just being raised in home where there was fighting between spouses, a teenager in the house, etc. Some of these dogs learn different rules of normal.

LOL, I was surprised myself today. I know there are certain things that I will never train out of Max. I've told all the neighbors -- I trust Max, unless their kids turn and run from him. So needless to say, he is never off-leash with small kids around, even in the yard. He doesn't mouth anymore, you can't see many remnants of his former self.

But today......

DH and son had come home from fishing. It's the guy thing -- DH put son in an arm lock and they were wrestling. Max jumped up, went into the "real bark", locked his jaws on son's arm. 

I have always had a dog that would bark under those circumstances, I've never had one that would make physical contact and mean it.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Sounds like warning, territorial or protective barking. That does not mean he would not show fear in some situations but a totally confident dog will usually not bark at noises etc. but it fairly normal. Very few of us take the time to train to build confidence and courage. With the wrong dog, that kind of training can become a liability. 

The reason so many respond with "get a trainer" is that no one knows what you think you are seeing in the dog or trying to describe. Unfortunately, there are so-called trainers that don't know what they are doing. I am experienced with GSDs but other dogs -no. I am not even close to considering myself capable of training but I could do a reasonable job with my own GSDs. A lot of "trainers" are no better than I am - and that is not what you want.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

coolgsd said:


> Sounds like warning, territorial or protective barking. That does not mean he would not show fear in some situations but a totally confident dog will usually not bark at noises etc. but it fairly normal. Very few of us take the time to train to build confidence and courage. With the wrong dog, that kind of training can become a liability.
> 
> The reason so many respond with "get a trainer" is that no one knows what you think you are seeing in the dog or trying to describe. Unfortunately, there are so-called trainers that don't know what they are doing. I am experienced with GSDs but other dogs -no. I am not even close to considering myself capable of training but I could do a reasonable job with my own GSDs. A lot of "trainers" are no better than I am - and that is not what you want.



This post is almost 10 years old and the OP is likely no longer active


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