# obedience or shutzhund competition heeling



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why does the desired position seem to be the dog wrapped around the front looking at your face? 

I guess it looks unnatural to me. 

When I want to walk a dog, leash or no leash, I would like him at my side, staying out of the way of my feet, and aware of my changes of direction and speed, but not necessarily getting a neck strain looking up into my face. 

Anyone have a good explanation for this? I noticed in some photos of Heidi, that she does this at least some of the time? In her case anyway, this is not a treat thing because I do not train heeling with treats.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Desired by who? I can't stand that wrapping and forging and I've seen a lot of SchH3 dogs even some higher level competitors that heel in ways that make me cringe. But dogs heel differently based on training, their handler's expectations, the conformation and temperament of the dog. IMO if the handler can't move naturally with some speed and purpose without constantly kneeing their dog then it's not acceptable to me personally.

I want my dog's shoulder even with my own. Of my dogs, Nikon will forge and wrap a bit. This is partly training (not the greatest foundation by me) and partly just how he is and works. Pan is much, much more correct as far as what I want, a tad farther back, straight/parallel with me.

Just offhand (no comment on the training, trainers, or pedigree) this is sort of what I like, go forward to 3:40 and watch for about 20 seconds.
http://vimeo.com/13928339


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not me, I want my dog to be aware of their surroundings, not just my facial expressions. I think it is unnatural looking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think dogs are smart enough to understand context on their own, even given the same command. Both my dogs naturally heel with focus during obedience, Pan especially. Heck, we've only just begun training a formal heel command last night but already he offers almost a BH routine of focused heeling if that's the direction I'm going. In protection the expectations are different and I don't even want their visual attention on me. I've seen a very high level competitive dog nearly miss a reattack because of that armpit focused heeling during protection of all things. However, during an obedience routine or trial I do not expect the dog to be suspicious or distracted by the environment. I do not require 100% head's-up eye contact but if the dog is comfortable in the environment, sometimes that is what I get.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Liesje said:


> I can't stand that wrapping and forging and I've seen a lot of SchH3 dogs even some higher level competitors that heel in ways that make me cringe.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. And I'm not just saying that because my dogs heel a foot away from my leg. They need to be that far away so I can see around my fat stomach! LOL!

Okay, maybe not a foot away.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, thanks, armpit healing, LOL. So it is not just me who is not trying to achieve that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs are at my leg, and sometime, especially on left turns, they could be said to be crowding, but I tell them BACK or OFF. I do not want them tripping me up. I know in obedience you cannot tell them that, but they usually do not need it. It is just training. 

Nothing is more annoying than the people in Rally Advanced or Excellent that hold a fake treat at nose level, right in front of their dog the entire time. I mean, no problem with pointing or giving direction once or twice, but it is unnatural to have the dog follow your fingers around the ring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Actually, if I had to choose I'd prefer the heads-up-armpit-focus above a dog that is forging/crabbing/wrapping around the handler, but IMO neither is ideal. 

I'll pick on myself....the first video is Nikon heeling almost how I like the heel (that was a few days before a trial). As you can see even where I like him to be he is still ever so slightly forging and crabbing a bit but despite the amount of heeling in a SchH or SDA obedience routine it is actually the smallest amount of points so I'm not touching it at this point. The second video is Nikon heeling (towards the beginning after the retrieve thing) but not being as correct as I like - kind of inconsistent with the bouncing and then not bouncing, and forging/crabbing more. So, as picky as I am even my own dog is not perfect, some of it is training, some of it is just his style.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The rule definition for heel position is different in schutzhund and AKC. The dog is more forward in schutzhund. Not that wrapping is the way to do it though. Wrapping can lead to butt out. 

When heeling, I want my dog very focsed on me. This is going to be a precision dance of sorts and both partners need to be completely focused to get it perfect. If I am walking in a normal situation, iow there is no one with a clipboard and pencil....then a "close" command is sufficient.

Some people do choose the face as the focal point. In schutzhund that is easier due to the more forward position of the dog.

Rally done with "follow the air cookie" is not so pretty, I agree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lies that was fun to watch, you can see that tail wagging away, dog having a great time.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

selzer said:


> Nothing is more annoying than the people in Rally Advanced or Excellent that hold a fake treat at nose level, right in front of their dog the entire time.


I was at a UKC Rally Trial this weekend and during the judge's briefing, she said that fake "luring" was not allowed. 

I also think that's stupid. I see it a lot in the AKC Rally.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

As to a dog's view and attention while looking at the handler, there are numerous studies (I have one in a David Mech book here somewhere) that shows that while looking forward, a dog's peripheral vision goes about 280 degrees. So the dog can still see to it's side and to a point behind. So while looking at the handler while in heel position, the rest of the field is not invisible to the dog.

Personally I like this obedience demonstration, something to aspire to IMHO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Now I do not know this person in the video or the dog, and you would have to be blind not to see that she and the dog have trained well. And the dog is on, and having fun. But I don't like it. With the dog's neck craned up like that, his hind end is dropped back and his front feet are pawing the air at times. The best moments in my opinion is when the dog is breifly looking forward, ears pitched forward to what is coming next. But the heeling with the head craned up made me think that the dog had a UTI or something, making it walk all funny. AND I am a showline person!!! Should be used to dogs walking on their hocks right? I think the dog is a great looking dog btw. But in my opinion that type of heeling detracts from the dog's looks.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't like the "schutzhund limp" as it's sometimes called in that video either. However it doesn't have to do with the dog looking upwards but rather with both the drive and the mechanics of collection that the dog was taught. In this case, too much collection. A dog can still be somewhat light in front and showing a nice prance with the front legs, while still moving more normally in the back.

I want my dog to look at me, but to be moving with a more natural stride. That comes from training both the mechanics and modulating the drive state to be most conducive to the movement desired. Too high a drive state and the dog may overcollect like this, or get bouncy or develop dancing feet, doing a lot of stutter stepping (or get vocal and leak drive in other ways) because the drive, and energy associated with it, is too high for the dog to contain or express with the amount of movement happening in the heeling. The handler striding out and moving faster can help, by providing the dog with a way to release more energy and also allowing the dog to extend his stride and not be so inhibited in it. But you can only move so fast, so the mechanics and drive state need to be adjusted to fit the heeling.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

To me, heeling and going for a walk are two vastly different things. Going for a walk I don't care about position much and the dog is free to look around. For formal competition heeling position matters, and I also want the dog's focus. 

I do not want a dog that is crowding or wrapping or crabbing, nor do I want that OCD stare at the armpit I see in some dogs. Just solid attention and the connection it brings. Not to mention the dog who is attentive to the handler not only looks nicer, but is going to heel tighter and more correctly through stops, turns and pace changes. Head up focus can be obtained without it looking robotic or unnatural. 

A nice heeling dog, moving smoothly and fluidly and naturally, in a nice, close, straight position without bothering the handler, and looking up at the handler in a natural, focused, happy, engaged way is one of the prettiest pictures on earth to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Liesje said:


> I do not require 100% head's-up eye contact but if the dog is comfortable in the environment, sometimes that is what I get.


Very often that heads up heeling helps cover up the dog being uncomfortable or easily distracted. It gives the dog a safe place to channel not just drive but also nervous energy due to discomfort or distraction into what the handler has taught the dog is an acceptable outlet. I've also known more than a few dogs who had nerve issues or overstimulated easily, or who for lack of a better word were simpletons in their heads, and thus couldn't focus on the task at hand if they were aware of the environment at all. So they were taught to completely tune out anything and everything around them and have nothing but tunnel vision (usually for the invisible ball under the handler's armpit).

Not that dogs who heel this way are necessarily uncomfortable or have to be taught this to cover up weakness or to get them to resist distraction and focus on work either. Just pointing out that it doesn't equate to a dog being comfortable.

I know Lies is just talking about how things happen with her dogs and I'm not commenting on her dogs or any specific dog. I'm just talking in general lest that statement be misinterpreted to mean comfortable = focus.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chris Wild said:


> Very often that heads up heeling helps cover up the dog being uncomfortable or easily distracted. It gives the dog a safe place to channel not just drive but also nervous energy due to discomfort or distraction into what the handler has taught the dog is an acceptable outlet. I've also known more than a few dogs who had nerve issues or overstimulated easily, or who for lack of a better word were simpletons in their heads, and thus couldn't focus on the task at hand if they were aware of the environment at all. So they were taught to completely tune out anything and everything around them and have nothing but tunnel vision (usually for the invisible ball under the handler's armpit).
> 
> Not that dogs who heel this way are necessarily uncomfortable or have to be taught this to cover up weakness or to get them to resist distraction and focus on work either. Just pointing out that it doesn't equate to a dog being comfortable.
> 
> I know Lies is just talking about how things happen with her dogs and I'm not commenting on her dogs or any specific dog. I'm just talking in general lest that statement be misinterpreted to mean comfortable = focus.


thanks for all three posts, but this one, well, I thought that too. If I wanted to get a dog that was flighty/nervous through a title leg, keeping the dog's attention 100% on me, would make the dog less concerned about things going on everywhere else. If I had a nickel for every time our trainer said (to the class or to individuals in the class) "get your dogs attention on you" when they are fixating on something. Usually those reactive dogs are just scared of the other dogs, and the fix to get them through classes or situations is to have them focus on you. So it stands to figure that you could get your squeamish dog through a leg by teaching it to totally focus on you.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes you could. But again, that isn't always the case. Watching the dogs and their body language usually makes it pretty clear which is which. It's easy to tell the dog who is nervous and his focus comes out of anxiety and the dog who is overstimulated and his focus comes from excess energy and the dog who is comfortable and happy and his focus comes from just being comfortable and happy and working with his handler.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

That's what I like about Schutzhund and most SchH judges. They can read if a dog is a nervous ball of anxiety or is psyched to do the work. We had one judge a number of years ago that stopped the dog as it was walking on the field and fail it. The dog had been trained to pass the temperament portion of the test but the judge wasn't fooled. I don't mind the SchH limp (as it was called) as much as I mind the AKC drag. When I did my first CD with my first Rottweiler, I thought I had pretty snazzy obedience until I went to a SchH trial. 
When I am at Schutzhund practice, my dogs know it and work accordingly. They have never had a choke, pinch or ecollar on their entire lives. They work this way out of excitement and I'm good with it. When I take them to the creek for a run, no, they don't stay in fuss position, but if I call them they drop and run. The training can be called into play if needed.
Annette


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> Very often that heads up heeling helps cover up the dog being uncomfortable or easily distracted. It gives the dog a safe place to channel not just drive but also nervous energy due to discomfort or distraction into what the handler has taught the dog is an acceptable outlet. I've also known more than a few dogs who had nerve issues or overstimulated easily, or who for lack of a better word were simpletons in their heads, and thus couldn't focus on the task at hand if they were aware of the environment at all. So they were taught to completely tune out anything and everything around them and have nothing but tunnel vision (usually for the invisible ball under the handler's armpit).
> 
> Not that dogs who heel this way are necessarily uncomfortable or have to be taught this to cover up weakness or to get them to resist distraction and focus on work either. Just pointing out that it doesn't equate to a dog being comfortable.
> 
> I know Lies is just talking about how things happen with her dogs and I'm not commenting on her dogs or any specific dog. I'm just talking in general lest that statement be misinterpreted to mean comfortable = focus.



True, I've seen dogs that may have issues like control issues that are trained to heel this way.

I think overall it's kind of off-putting to just say dogs should heel one way and not this way because my dog heels this way and I think it's the best. How many of us have dogs that actually heel 100% perfect as far as what WE want anyway? Not me! My three GSDs all heel very differently but none are *exactly* what I want. There are adjustments I can strive to make in training but then there are compromises I need to make just based on the dog's conformation and temperament.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

If I wasn't so anti-critiquing poor random strangers on the internets videos right now I would be very interested to see 3 videos of people outlining their version of the "SchH limp," the "AKC drag," and their idea of the "perfect heel."

To what Lies was saying, I think everyone has their own version and it would be cool to see each person's interpretation of it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My problem is I really do not KNOW what they look like when they are heeling. I dislike seeing the way some dogs heel, and looking at photos of some of mine heeling, it appears they are doing some of the same things, certainly not as precise as some of the u-tubes. 

I am shocked at what is considered a passing performance, dogs sometimes a yard behind the owner or worse. I suppose having the dog bouncing up and down, wrapped around the front, but paying attention to the owner is better than that. 

I want to join the class where the dog walks at your side, but is not fixated on your belly button or face.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> If I wasn't so anti-critiquing poor random strangers on the internets videos right now I would be very interested to see 3 videos of people outlining their version of the "SchH limp," the "AKC drag," and their idea of the "perfect heel."
> 
> To what Lies was saying, I think everyone has their own version and it would be cool to see each person's interpretation of it.


Maybe we can do it with Goldens or Malinois -- that way we are just evaluating the action and not the breed, lines, etc.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> Now I do not know this person in the video or the dog, and you would have to be blind not to see that she and the dog have trained well. And the dog is on, and having fun. But I don't like it. With the dog's neck craned up like that, his hind end is dropped back and his front feet are pawing the air at times. The best moments in my opinion is when the dog is breifly looking forward, ears pitched forward to what is coming next. But the heeling with the head craned up made me think that the dog had a UTI or something, making it walk all funny. AND I am a showline person!!! Should be used to dogs walking on their hocks right? I think the dog is a great looking dog btw. But in my opinion that type of heeling detracts from the dog's looks.


Couldn't agree more. It almost looks like animal cruelty to me to make a dog walk like that JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

selzer said:


> Maybe we can do it with Goldens or Malinois -- that way we are just evaluating the action and not the breed, lines, etc.


Haven't we already been down this road with Goldens already?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> Haven't we already been down this road with Goldens already?


Well, a picture paints a thousand words they say. I have tried to describe with words, but I do not want it to sound like jealous bashing. 

Anyone who has seen my classes with Bear and Dolly would KNOW its jealous bashing. LOL!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

How about a JRT?? 

This is my lil man at a Rally trial from the beginning of the month. This was his 5th run of the day and it was really hot/humid, so he is not *quite* as animated as he was at the start of the day - but for me his heeling is really nice.






I have never "lured" him with a treat for the heeling or spit treats out at him - it is more of a shaped thing with corrections here and there.
Don't have any vids of my GSD's heeling...but should get some one of these days!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK I'm a real novice at sch. & I wasn't really hot at AKC novice classes. So this is just my observations - they carry little weight. How many mroe disclaimers can I pack in here?

I think phgsd's video shows the difference between schu. & akc - Gizzmo was significantly less animated than the schu. dogs. His sits and downs were a bit slow and from time to time he was crooked by the sch. book. He had pretty good focus. In sch. we would also say he had a lot of handler help and was a little broad. I think in AKC rally you can do that handler help without loosing points. 
The sch. videos showed more intensity - but that's one of the goals. 

BTW the armpit focus comes from people training with the reward (kong, ball, hose) tucked under the arm. You need to be careful or you get armpit instead of eyes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

middleofnowhere said:


> You need to be careful or you get armpit instead of eyes.


Often people are intentionally teaching the dog to look at the armpit, or another focal point other than the face, because it is much more difficult for the dog to maintain a straight heel position while looking at the face as compared to just looking straight up.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is Nikon's littermate but it's an older video (she has several rally titles since). I like her heeling, attention, and overall attitude and feel it is very nice as far as a golden middle for various types of obedience.

DSC 0713 - YouTube

Of dogs I have seen in person I really like Roni Hoff's Tobi's heeling. Tomorrow I'll try to find a video of my "perfect" heeling...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

psgsd, thanks for posting the vid. Yes, the heeling looks good. It looks like your little guy is really having a great time out there. APDT Rally seems quite a bit different then AKC Rally Novice. 

I do not think it is quite fair to compare Rally heeling to obedience or schutzhund heeling, just because it is so different. In schutzhund you trek half a mile in one direction -- I know, it is not _really _half a mile, but in rally you are lucky to get four strides before the next station. We do some of the same turns. Handler help is kind of necessary because sometimes the dog is expected to halt and stand, sometimes halt and sit, sometimes halt and down, sometimes finish right, sometimes left, sometimes sit after the finish sometimes go immediately after the finish. Some people get carried away, but talking to the dog is encouraged, praising the dog is perfectly ok. And your whole ring time experience might be a wopping 2 minutes. Rally does not require perfect sits and perfect heeling, though they can give handler errors for some of that. And you can redo a station. But, If you redo, you can actually lose more points than if you just went on. Like if the dog comes front sits front, goes around you and then sits crooked at your side, and you want a straighter sit, so you redo, you just lost three points, and the judge may or may not have taken one point off. 

They are just different animals. I do not know that you have the time in rally to get that intense focus that the heeling in some obedience and schutzhund has. I mean the dogs are focused, but there is so many different movements and changes, that they rarely have the time to focus on your arm pit or belly button.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> This is Nikon's littermate but it's an older video (she has several rally titles since). I like her heeling, attention, and overall attitude and feel it is very nice as far as a golden middle for various types of obedience.
> 
> DSC 0713 - YouTube
> 
> Of dogs I have seen in person I really like Roni Hoff's Tobi's heeling. Tomorrow I'll try to find a video of my "perfect" heeling...


Ok, that dog was a lot more obedience-type heeling, but that course was like a dream course. I mean, there is a lot of space in that ring. I am always on courses designed for Yorkie owners. And we train in tight quarters. The dog and handler definitely were tuned to one another. Wast that APDT Rally as well?


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

My dogs do well in AKC but we have recently stated focused heeling. My wife is alot better at teaching it than I am.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I realize Rally can't be compared directly to schutzhund. Handler help is allowed, and the dogs do not have to have an automatic sit. And Rally (at least APDT) is so lenient about some things that it can drive me insane! But it is just something fun to do - Gizmo really likes it. It is not Kessy's favorite thing, it is a bit too low key for her, but she does a nice job. In schutzund her heeling is not over the top - but she is focused and more "up" than in Rally, and happy with her tail wagging the whole time and that is fine for me.

That particular video of Gizmo was Level 2 which is like an AKC RA although there was no jump or food bowls on the course. But Gizmo got his Level 3 title last weekend which includes a retrieve, directed jumps, backwards heeling, moving stands, etc. Totally off topic but he is a lot of fun in Rally! LOL

I do think that the very intense obedience does show that the dog has that drive and intensity. Not any dog can do that. And I think that GSD's are built differently than a lot of dogs - their angulation can make them settle back on their rear ends and "prance" more easily than other breeds. I have seen other breeds with very intense heeling but they do not seem to prance like GSD's can. But maybe some are out there that I just haven't seen!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Goldens and Shelties can get prancey. They often have enough angulation.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Chris Wild said:


> Often people are intentionally teaching the dog to look at the armpit, or another focal point other than the face, because it is much more difficult for the dog to maintain a straight heel position while looking at the face as compared to just looking straight up.



I train focus on the armpit. I used to train face, but got heeling that was too far forward because the dog had to go forward to look past my (ehem...female parts) and look into my face. 

I'll put ohotos up. 










First dog above, heeling from a trial.

Second dog below, learning heeling.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't understand why the dog has to be looking at ANY parts: face, armpit or whatever. I always train my dogs to heel by position: shoulder to my leg, so they can be looking forward and walking naturally.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

They do have to look something about you. They can heel more straight ahead looking as peripheral vision will allow them to also see part of you.

I find it easier if I can have them focus on a part of me that is going to give some anticipatory indication of the next move... my hip, my shoulder, head, etc. These can shift before your legs do and let the dog the next direction of travel. It is not necessary, but I find it useful in a sport where every point in heeling counts. The dance has to be accurate, the focus in the dog observable, constant and intense.

The high carriage, the prance are not scorable that I know of. Some like the picture this presents of attitude and intensity.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I am just asking, as a matter of safety, if you hit rough terrain...does the dog trip and fall due to never looking where he is going? 

OK OK..the fancy heeling is gorgeous to look at!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

How often is a person doing competition heeling through rough terrain??


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> How often is a person doing competition heeling through rough terrain??


Oh, I dont know...we practice in our field and my dogs have been digging for moles quite a bit.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> How often is a person doing competition heeling through rough terrain??


Exactly. Competition heeling is impractical. It's just for show. You wouldn't want to take your dog on a 'normal' walk heeling the way they do in competition, (I would hope) you would want your dog relaxed, looking forward and at your side.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Exactly. Competition heeling is impractical. It's just for show. You wouldn't want to take your dog on a 'normal' walk heeling the way they do in competition, (I would hope) you would want your dog relaxed, looking forward and at your side.


And I dont' think anyone was arguing there was a huge difference from what they do with their dogs walking around the neighborhood versus what they do when they are going for a title?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

This is a little like asking: why do we make dogs weave in agility!? 

No reason. Just because.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> Ok, that dog was a lot more obedience-type heeling, but that course was like a dream course. I mean, there is a lot of space in that ring. I am always on courses designed for Yorkie owners. And we train in tight quarters. The dog and handler definitely were tuned to one another. Wast that APDT Rally as well?


Yes, APDT rally is (IMO) much better for GSDs. The courses are much longer/larger, and they do longer periods of heeling.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

When I go on a normal walk, that is not competition heeling. The dogs know it as a separate behavior with a different command and expectation. Even then, when looking around, the dog must have some focus on your body or they would never maintain a consistent position. In these cases you probably just do not know what your dog has chosen as the point to keep track of.

Teaching good heeling, you need to know what the dogs ppint of attention is so that you can teach that and maintain it. If you do not know the point of focus, this is more difficult to do.

Competitive heeling is artificial and judged by specific behavioral criteria. That silly broad jump is artificial. That jump is supposed to represent a stream! Hehe...the handler stands in the "water". It is all a made up thing.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> I don't understand why the dog has to be looking at ANY parts: face, armpit or whatever. I always train my dogs to heel by position: shoulder to my leg, so they can be looking forward and walking naturally.


If you're not doing competition heeling, then teaching the dog a focus point isn't important. If you're doing competition heeling and all you care about is a passing score, then they'll do just fine heeling without teaching a focus point. 

But if you want the high scores, teaching a focus point will help a ton. The focus point doesn't have to be UP, but it does make cueing your turns much MUCH easier and gives a smoother heeling picture. If you don't like the prance, don't teach it. But some dogs do it naturally, and it IS kinda fun! 

Besides, even if you THINK they're looking forward, they probably aren't.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I am walking with my dog, I do want a loose lead, but I do not care if they are before or behind, so long as they aren't tripping me up. But when we get to a street, I have them sit at the curb, and then we heel across the street. This is the same heel I use in the ring. It is just not something we do all the time. When crossing, I want the dog at my side.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think forward or behind you is going to be scorable in competition obedience. It may pass if not too far off. 

In Rally, between stations, I train for heads up heeling. As a teacher told me, every step matters in heeling.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If anything I expect MORE focus in Rally because there are so many quick changes in pace, fronts, both finishes, 180, 270, 360, etc. However, the way I understood it is that AKC Rally novice was meant to be a precursor to competitive obedience, so the expectations as far as the position of the dog are much more relaxed than other types of obedience.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, the expectations, by way of the rules, are more relaxed. The idea is that training may not be completely progressed when entering Rally.

The Rally moves are the doodling and such we learned to do in preparation for the obedience ring. The exercises for the various levels were roughed in during early training. You find these roughed in behaviors in Rally also. They come from Novice through Utility.

They have the Beginner Novice title now. It is supposed to act as a bridge from Rally to Obed. The heeling pattern is typical, but you follow signs rather than the judges order. You can give some minimal praise in the heeling. I thought it looked like a pretty good bridge.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that was the general plan, but I think it grew into its own thing. I think they felt Rally was a good intermediate step prior to Obedience or Agility.

I think it backfired though really. At least in my opinion. You have a sport that is very relaxed -- good for people like me. But then these people have some success and take their green dog into obedience classes. I think obedience classes are seeing a lot more instances of broken stays, and dogs rushing into other dogs. Maybe that has nothing to do with Rally people. Maybe I am just noticing more issues. Maybe that is a topic for another thread.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My Open class with Soleil had a lot of stay problems. I Don't know that it is increased as I have been out of it for awhile. There were problems I remember back then. 

These were experienced people in my Open B class. I don't think that many had come up through the ranks of Rally. I guess Rally success could mislead some. I saw a lot of runs blown in the stays. That is a tough way to lose your obed leg.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think most of the Rally people just stick with Rally and go for an RAE instead of trying for obedience.

I am getting deafer now, and I think obedience is only going to get harder for me. Rally is easier because I do not have to listen to the judge for the changes. That was a major issue for me last December.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Terrible! I have hearing loss also. Last show I did not hear the judge as a blower came on. She didn't count it against us. That was the second time I have missed hearing the judge....that I know of!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Two days in a row I did not hear the judge on the heeling patterns. It's embarrassing, but I do not think the first one held it against me. The second judge was not as pleasant, and after that she started yelling at me for talking to my dog, when I did not, and both stewards said I did not. Then I started shaking and well, I did not qualify. 

I can hear just fine if I am looking at your face, maybe I am reading lips -- though I cannot like on TV with the sound down, read lips. Or maybe I just hear better when I am facing that direction.

Now, I am having trouble in training classes too, hearing the commands.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Selzer - maybe it is time to try schutzhund? For the most part you get signals from the judge...

heeling in rough terrain - it is the handler that falls down, not the dog. In rewards, it is the dog that trips the handler, too. In my case, the handler can trip on her own on a flat field. My dog has not tripped yet.

focus on eyes - I've been taught that the dog reads a lot from your eyes (not so much from your arm pit) In fact, the club insists that we not wear sunglasses on the field because the dog needs to see the handler's eyes.

on a general walk - you bet we throw in a few feet of focussed heeling, downs and sits. Then there is "free" time (lots of it) but a focussed heel can be called for at any time.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When heeling in competition the dog should be focused on the handler. It really is like a dance and should not be like one is out for a walk in the park. This is team work and both members of the team must be focused on one another. Just like in dancing.

Correct heel position, dog looking at my face, body straight, not wrapping, forging or interfering with movement. 

From the front.









From the side:










Vala had a tendency to forge a bit, but this is also acceptable in SchH. Maybe minor point deduction in AKC. No wrapping, dog is straight, excellent attention.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Another dog. Also straight, correct position, good focus on handler.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Lovely teamwork! Nice pictures.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> Selzer - maybe it is time to try schutzhund? For the most part you get signals from the judge...
> 
> heeling in rough terrain - it is the handler that falls down, not the dog. In rewards, it is the dog that trips the handler, too. In my case, the handler can trip on her own on a flat field. My dog has not tripped yet.
> 
> ...


See, that won't work for me either. My glasses are photo-grays. They are my only pair. If it is sunny, they will darken to sun glasses. I need them. 

I have actually looked for Schutzhund classes around here, there is nothing anywhere near here. People on the site were trying to help, but they got one of the other Jeffersons in Ohio. I live about as North and East as you can go and still be in Ohio. 

It is a moot point anyway until things get better, and then there will be no time to travel 3 hours or more each way for schutzhund training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Selzer, there is a multi world SchH competitor that wears that type of glasses too and she is able to get great focus. Don't let them hinder you.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> focus on eyes - I've been taught that the dog reads a lot from your eyes (not so much from your arm pit) In fact, the club insists that we not wear sunglasses on the field because the dog needs to see the handler's eyes.


Same in out club - however, I wear prescription glasses that are photosensitive like yours, Selzer. I also have a minor developmental disability wich makes me sensitive to environmental stimuli, including bright light - I'd fall down in a sobbing heap if I had to do an outdoor obedience routine without my dark glasses and my visored hat. Hasn't stopped my dogs from learning eye-contact heeling with focus:









Gryffon's BH at 15 months: Focused heeling without wrapping, dark glasses and all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wear my glasses all the time, take them off when I go to sleep, so my dogs do go for my attention with them. I have seen pictures of my dogs looking at my face while heeling. But it is not something I train for.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Regarding the hearing issues, I have the same problems (had it with my riding lessons and trainer too) and it's getting worse with tinutis (ringing in the ears). In the horse world I've seen some starting to wear head sets while the trainer speaks into a transmitter device.

Can you, prior to the competition, advise the judge that you have a hearing problem and can they somehow accomodate?





selzer said:


> Two days in a row I did not hear the judge on the heeling patterns. It's embarrassing, but I do not think the first one held it against me. The second judge was not as pleasant, and after that she started yelling at me for talking to my dog, when I did not, and both stewards said I did not. Then I started shaking and well, I did not qualify.
> 
> I can hear just fine if I am looking at your face, maybe I am reading lips -- though I cannot like on TV with the sound down, read lips. Or maybe I just hear better when I am facing that direction.
> 
> Now, I am having trouble in training classes too, hearing the commands.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, you can advise the judge prior to beginning the routine. I didn't want to encourage them to get closer or loud though!


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

here's Shane my Dalmatian. He has prancy, heads up heeling. He doesn't wrap and his butt doesnt drag or scoot his back end. Most of the work lands on me, keeping the right speed to make him look as best as i can.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, the handler speed/pace is definitely important! I kind of go back and forth, because a faster speed gives me a more powerful looking heel and shows of the dog better, but slower speed usually loads up their drive even more.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

ShatteringGlass said:


> here's Shane my Dalmatian. He has prancy, heads up heeling. He doesn't wrap and his butt doesnt drag or scoot his back end. Most of the work lands on me, keeping the right speed to make him look as best as i can.
> Shane the Dalmatian Heeling - YouTube


AWESOME heeling! :thumbup:


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Liesje, I got a kick out trying to catch up with the forum and seeing you posted a video of my boy  He was only about 7 months in that video and just starting his heeling work so things were far from polished. Glad you like him though 

In top levels of AKC, Schutzhund, or European obedience you will always see a dog that has a lot of animation and with focus up towards the shoulder or face area. My puppy was trained to look at my eyes. His animation is purely his drive and enthusiasm coming through. In competition, the dog is not supposed to be looking around at the crowd or surroundings, the judge wants to see the dog locked and focused solely on the handler. This is not like going out for a walk in the park. My dog absolutely does not heel in the same manner outside of our competition training or trialing.

It should be about the "picture", correct position, NO forging, no serious bumping, focus on the handler, drive, and enthusiasm. I love to watch a handler and dog looking like they are dancing together in pure excitement.

The dog's structure often lends to an exaggerated "scooch" in the back end. Look at different breeds of dogs in top obedience heeling. You will notice that all of them have the same leg and heads up position and yet some slouch in the back, some lift their front feet higher, etc. Differences in structure of the dog can cause this. Speed often has a lot to do with it also. Some short strided handlers with big dogs end up with a dog that is over collected to stay in position. The energy has to be collected and go UP instead of forward to maintain proper heel position. But seriously....I don't see how this is inhumane? I think it is far less stress for a dog to move collected under him for a few minutes a day than to do many sets of weave poles, a-frames, jumps, flyball, high jumping for frisbee, freestyle, etc....lets not even talk about the impact of some ring sport training. Everything we ask of our dogs besides sitting on the couch impacts their bodies in some way or another. Same with horses. If some heads up collected heeling is bad for them, then so is all dressage that is done.

Just my opinion....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I can attest to the importance of proper rear collection, having a dog totally lacking in this department. I get this critique regardless of what we are doing. I've struggled with his heeling. In agility he wants to power from the front. In dock diving he has no ups, jumps straight/flat. In conformation I'm told he needs to learn to show more power in the rear. Part of this is conformation and a back problem, but my early foundation certainly did not help. 

From now on with a puppy I start from day one doing the lured heeling with food from the palm. Contrary to what it looks like, this is not for me to train the dog to heel or train the dog to look up; I use it to build the "muscle memory" in the rear for the dog to heel with his body straight and his rear end collected under him. I'm not weaning him off the food as he ages, I use the same amount of food/rewards in the palm at 7 weeks as I do at 7 months. When ready to train heeling I use a prong collar and a toy but the early food luring helps the dog find that position naturally.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

To me, there is a world of difference between heeling and walking with your dog. Dogs can heel beautifully but have pretty poor leash manners when on a walk. Or dogs can have excellent leash manners and have no idea what heeling is. When I have demo'd heeling in classes at the training club, I always get comments along the lines of "your dog looks like he's dancing with you". I wish someone had explained the every day walk vs. heeling difference to me when I first started training in competition obedience. Instead, "heel" was taught as both an every day walking behavior and a competition behavior. IME that almost always results in dogs who struggle with heeling in competition. 

Selzer, FWIW there is an excellent SchH club probably about a 45 minute drive from you. If you want the info, PM me. 

I don't have too many heeling videos of my dogs on Youtube - guess I should get some up! Here is Whimsy getting her RN title. She's a work in progress still with competition training, she's not quite 2 years old in the video:


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Speed is something I'm struggling now with my pup. With my 54 lbs female I'd always got that "dancing" picture almost effortless, now with the 81 lbs male if I walk at the same speed I was used to, he looks flat. Our last heeling sessions have been more adjusting the how I walk than teaching him. With the right speed and body energy the prancing comes by itself. 

Same with the crowding, yes, he needed some sessions of prong not to go forward and it helped, but also helped a lot to be more aware of where my shoulder is in relation to my hips. It made a world of difference.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

FG167 said:


> AWESOME heeling! :thumbup:


thanks! He is nut job, but easily trained and he loves to work. He's starting to grow up a bit (he's 2 1/2 years), which is nice!


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