# Dogs and carbs/grains/veggies.



## SaraP (Jun 4, 2012)

I've read that dogs are omnivores-ok, I get that. But I've been feeding my dog something like a chicken breast with a cup of rice and a cup of veggies ( mainly like peas and carrots). Is that ok. I was told that dogs could have whole grain rice but that was about it grain-wise. What about the veggies? 

Thanks!


----------



## Madjukes (Jul 1, 2012)

Mmmmm as far as omnivores go, they're pretty much good on only meat. They dont' need the carbs and veggies to survive, technically. If you want it from a very primal standpoint, their ancestors only ate the veggies/fruits from the stomachs of their prey, so a very small % of their meals should be fruits/veggies if you're feeding raw.


----------



## SaraP (Jun 4, 2012)

So does that mean I should give her something like two chicken breasts and 1/2 cup of rice and 1/2 cup of veggies then?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Dogs are carnivores. They only need meat.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You can give just about any carb so long as it's well cooked. Lots of us use white potato and sweet potato as our carb base. It's a good way to give nutritious calories without adding more fat.

If you give fruits and/or veggies, there are much better things to give other than peas and carrots. Head to the veggie isle and think phytonutrients and pick any that you think are colorful or nutritious. I feed every sort of green leafy lettuce, cabbage, winter squash, tomato, celery, sweet red pepper, eggplant, brussel sprouts, and anything else I can find. I do run them through my juicer, recombine juice and pulp, and freeze them, so they can digest them properly and get the nutritional benefits of them.


----------



## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

You aren't giving near enough meat. 

I give my pup veggies, but it's more to the tune of a tablespoon of veggies with his dinner. I would also ditch the rice if I were you.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

You need to feed you your 2-3% of target body weight if full grown...if puppy 5-8% of current weight while growing up to a year.

Min. 60% protein (50% of that from RMB's) and up...depends on your dogs health issues (if pancreas problem - reduce fat, if not fat is good)
Rest Veg., min. amount of fruit (but doesn't digest well with protein)

Go easy on potato (white) high carbohydrate, high glycemic (spike insulin levels)...need slow release (soluable fibre)....definately green leafy...incl. kale (vit. K for red blood cells and clotting), dandilion, swiss chard...

Mix it up so you provide a variety of nutrients over afew days (much like we eat.) perfectly balanced over time...

You also NEED (if not feeding bone), 900mg of calcium per pound of food...use ground eggshells (perfect balance cal./phos.) or RMB's as noted above


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

you need to feed bone and organs. And go by the weight of your dog as far as how much to feed like mentioned above. I'd get rid of the rice. Veggies need to be cooked or pureed for the dog to be able to digest and get any nutrients out of it.

I feed Dalmatians which cannot have organs or most red meats due to the breed being genetically different from others, they cannot process purines and can get blocked with stones without a low purine diet. To help compensate for the foods i cannot feed, i feed processed veggies/fruits and lots of eggs. 

As an example as a diet with veggies: I feed veggies/fruit every other morning and my male is fed about 14oz of food each meal. So for breakfast, about 8-10oz of that meal is meat, and the rest is veggies/fruit. Green tripe is also good to feed. On non-veggie/fruit mornings I feed tripe, eggs, and a little bit of fish to take up the 4-6oz that is left after the meat is weighed out. For dinner every night it is 14oz of raw meaty bone


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Oops, forgot to mention organ meats, rotate in 3x per week...

My dog doesn't tolorate fat so I cannot feed liver raw and barely tripe (which he looooves) - gets diarrhea...so I cook the liver in treats (w/fruit - mango, bluberries) and gets that way...also dehydrate beef heart (jerky) 

Example of diet...he is not active in sports and less active due to knee injury last year, but still seems to maintain nice shape at 3% of his body weight...85lbs...gets 2.5lbs. a day...Ultra Low Fat

AM - 6oz muscle meat (usually chicken), 3oz (rotation) of either sardines, canned pink salmon, poached salmon or sole, raw egg, beef heart, 7oz. veg
PM - 8oz muscle meat, 7 oz. veg. 8-10oz. chicken frames (fat gouged out and cut off).

Am - gets 1/2tsp. ground eggshell in lieu of bones
Offal meats and fruits - are his treats - dehydrated beef heart, chicken hearts, chicken liver w/organic spelt blueberries or mango (mental for mango), other treats use oganic applesauce, pumpkin, chedder cheese, coconut oil, carob

and....his veg is cooked and processed (am about to do batch right now - 15lbs...sigh)

Adding kelp and/or rotation of alfalfa is also good for micro minerals, thyroid and inflammation


----------



## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

instead of feeding veggies, feed green tripe. i havent seen a dog hunt for a cabbage yet, they always go for the rabbit eating the cabbage.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Madjukes said:


> Mmmmm as far as omnivores go, they're pretty much good on only meat. They dont' need the carbs and veggies to survive, technically.





Lucy Dog said:


> Dogs are carnivores. They only need meat.


I don't agree with this. I just watched a video from Dr. Becker on why dogs eat grass (i.e. vegetation). While one reason is to purge themselves, the other is that they are getting nutrients and enzymes from the specific grasses they are choosing. I routinely watch Jax pick and graze on grasses.

Why Dogs Eat Grass | Hotly Discussed Dog Behavior

Another reason is that dogs eat the innards of animals in the wild. They ARE getting grasses, fruits and vege's from the stomach's of the animals they catch.. Jax will also steal tomatoes when I'm canning, race me to the garden to pick the vege's ahead of me. There are micro nutrients our domestic animals are getting through fruits and vege's that are replacing the good stuff they get from the innards of the animals if they were wild.

I saw a great improvement in Jax's coat once I started feeding some of carmspack supplements. I'm sure you could accomplish the same thing if you were to make a vege/fruit mash mix. Any vege's/fruit need to be processed in some way. Dogs can't break down the cell wall of vege/fruit so you have to freeze them, juice them, etc so they can digest them. Some people feed tripe (the contents of the stomach) and I do but am rethinking that as I don't know the source. It comes from beef but WHAT is in the tripe? Is it grasses or is it corn? My guess is corn so I'm looking at fermenting some fruit/vege's to replace the tripe with an equivalent.


----------



## shell nyc (Jul 19, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with this. I just watched a video from Dr. Becker on why dogs eat grass (i.e. vegetation). While one reason is to purge themselves, the other is that they are getting nutrients and enzymes from the specific grasses they are choosing. I routinely watch Jax pick and graze on grasses.
> 
> Why Dogs Eat Grass | Hotly Discussed Dog Behavior


Thanks for the link, nice article. My dogs routinely "graze". They clearly enjoy finding just the right blades of grass and nibbling away. They never vomit afterwards. It appears to be normal dog behavior (as described in the article), and I know my yard is not treated with chemicals so I let them enjoy.

I feed a prey-model raw diet consisting of meat, bones, and organs. In addition to their grazing, I also share fruit and veggie scraps if I'm preparing them for the humans, but I do not consider it as an actual requirement in their diet, just treats. 

I think the OP needs to reconsider his/her plan for the dog's diet. Are you looking to convert to a pray model raw diet, or home cooking or?? While a chicken breast, some rice and veggies sounds like a healthy diet for the owner, a dog can't live off of that!


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I posted this on another thread...this is from Barf World, the learn more page...click on "not grains" (as well as high starch/glycemic veggies - i.e. white potatoes)

Learn More - Educational tools for Pet Health & Success


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I have to disagree with some people that dogs should eat only meat. Dogs evolved as companions to humans, probably eating human leftovers which would include grains, veggies, etc. 

My dog's stomach did well on a homemade diet. Make sure your grains are very well cooked, the same with veggies or chopped fine for easy digestion. I just shared some of my oatmeal pancakes this morning with our dog.

What would concern me about your dog's diet is if he/she is getting enough vitamins and minerals. This is why I stopped doing a 100% homemade diet. I found a kibble for large breed dogs that has added glucosamine, and some dehydrated raw that has added vit/minerals and add my own fresh food to that.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Feeding depends on the individual needs of the dog.

If pancreas problems, low fat, low glycemic, grain free
If kidneys - balance of meat and veg re: urea (waste by-product of protein)
if liver - blance based on ammonia 
If IBS - low fat, grain free (oatmeal aggrevates intesinal disorders)
diabetic - low glycemic, 
Arthritic - no night shade veg...potato, peppers, eggplant and so on
neurological (seizures, DM) - up keytones, more b-vitamins, more anti-ox. heavy metal chelators (apple pectin)...watch for blood ammonia levels

Some dogs have iron guts, others have special needs...a lot of GSD's are special needs


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with this. I just watched a video from Dr. Becker on why dogs eat grass (i.e. vegetation). While one reason is to purge themselves, the other is that they are getting nutrients and enzymes from the specific grasses they are choosing. I routinely watch Jax pick and graze on grasses.
> 
> Why Dogs Eat Grass | Hotly Discussed Dog Behavior
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying and do agree. I probably should have phrased my statement better. Dogs do need more than just meat. They do need bones and organs as well. They do get important nutrients from the digestive systems of the animals that they'd be eating in the wild or from a diet that consisted of green tripe.

I was just trying to make the point that dogs don't _need_ you to slice up an apple (just using that as example) and mix that with their regular diet to thrive. They don't _need _those nutrients. They do need the nutrients that they're missing out on if you're not supplementing something like green tripe with all of those great amino acids and digestive enzymes in that diet. 

This would probably also apply if you had a pet wolf too - really no different.



Gretchen said:


> I have to disagree with some people that dogs should eat only meat. Dogs evolved as companions to humans, probably eating human leftovers which would include grains, veggies, etc.


That still doesn't change the their genetics and the fact that they are carnivores. They can eat all the crap that we give them and that still doesn't change who they are and how they're built. They still have the same digestive system of a carnivore. Ever look a dogs mouth and notice they only have sharp teeth and no flat molalrs like us humans (omnivores)? Notice how their jaw only goes up and down and not side to side?

They're not built by nature to grind and chew grass. They're designed to rip through and bones, flesh, and organs and digest that food without getting stuff like salmonella like we're susceptible to. 

Do you have any examples of what's changed through the evolution of dogs being pet to make them need things like rice, fruits, and veggies that wolves (a carnivore) wouldn't need in their diet?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Exactly Paul. If they are not getting what they would naturally (the contents of the prey animals stomach) then we need to supplement that. the supplementation would be in the form of digestive enzymes, fruit/vege blend (because berries are found in the stomach of wild canines along with grasses!), and probiotics all of which are combined in some form in the stomach of prey animals. Orrrrr....green tripe that is not mostly corn but from a grass fed animal!


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The nutrients from green tripe are also partially digested, correct? Isn't that what makes it such a good supplement to a raw diet... because dogs can't do that digesting and get the same nutrient output? The digestion is already done for them. It's just all nutrients.

And is most green tripe from corn fed animals? I'd think there'd have to be a source of green tripe for some good grass fed, free range animals somewhere out there.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> The nutrients from green tripe are also partially digested, correct? Isn't that what makes it such a good supplement to a raw diet... because dogs can't do that digesting and get the same nutrient output? The digestion is already done for them. It's just all nutrients.


Yes. So if a person isnt' going to supplement with green tripe, then they should process vege/fruit to add. And the green tripe has probiotics and digestive enzymes.



Lucy Dog said:


> And is most green tripe from corn fed animals? I'd think there'd have to be a source of green tripe for some good grass fed, free range animals somewhere out there.


It depends. The stuff we buy for Banshee, Trippett, is from grass fed animals. Trippett has a great line of products. She gets that because of her CRF.

The fresh stuff I've been buying for Jax is from an unknown source so I'm guessing the contents are corn which is why I'm considering going to fermented vege/fruit (ex: sauer kraut) that I can just make myself which will give the same benefit as tripe.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Wolves eat from the inside out...muscle meat last. Therefore in theory, they are going after the predigested grasses and fruits of their prey...the also eat per their enviroment including grasses, and berries and availability re: eviroment they are from...Eating fish wasn't normal for wolves, but Canadian wolves have adapted this into their diet...

Once prey is brought down, wolves begin to feed excitedly, ripping and tugging at the carcass in all directions, and bolting down large chunks of it.[139] The breeding pair typically monopolizes food in order to continue producing pups. When food is scarce, this is done at the expense of other family members, especially non-pups.[140] The breeding pair typically eats first, though as it is they who usually work the hardest in killing prey, they may rest after a long hunt and allow the rest of the family to eat unmolested. Once the breeding pair has finished eating, the rest of the family will tear off pieces of the carcass and transport them to secluded areas where they can eat in peace. *Wolves typically commence feeding by consuming the larger internal organs of their prey, such as the **heart**, **liver**, **lungs** and **stomach** lining. The **kidneys** and **spleen** are eaten once they are exposed, followed by the **muscles**.[141] A single wolf can eat 15-19% of its body weight in a single feeding.[142]*


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When a wolf eats the stomach of large prey the contents are shaken out and not eaten. Think about what is inside the stomach. Acid. They do not eat the contents from large prey. Only from smaller prey. 

Dogs do NOT need grains, veggies or fruit. Giving some as treats or as table scraps is not harmful for most dogs, but they are NOT needed and should not make up a large percentage of the diet.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> When a wolf eats the stomach of large prey the contents are shaken out and not eaten. Think about what is inside the stomach. Acid. They do not eat the contents from large prey. Only from smaller prey.
> 
> Dogs do NOT need grains, veggies or fruit. Giving some as treats or as table scraps is not harmful for most dogs, but they are NOT needed and should not make up a large percentage of the diet.


Makes sense. Thanks for the input.



GatorBytes said:


> *Wolves typically commence feeding by consuming the larger internal organs of their prey, such as the **heart**, **liver**, **lungs** and **stomach** lining. The **kidneys** and **spleen** are eaten once they are exposed, followed by the **muscles**.[141] A single wolf can eat 15-19% of its body weight in a single feeding.[142]*


Just like you mentioned... Stomach lining (tripe), not stomach contents. Big difference.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Wolves (or any other animal for that matter), when hungry enough will eat anything.

Just because a dog DOES eat something doesn't mean they necessarily NEED that food in their diet. My guys love peanut butter, pizza and pop corn but it is not a necessary part of their diet.

Deer sometimes eat baby birds but that doesn't change the fact that they are herbivores. Their physiology is designed to benefit the most from vegetation.

A dog's physiology is designed for eating meat. *CAN *they eat other foods? Sure ... but I don't believe those non-protein foods (veggies, grains, grasses, etc) add anything nutritionally.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Dogs haven't been wolves in a VERY long time and I wouldn't feed them like that. I feed my dog as an individual and feed him with the very best nutrition I can possibly find. I do feed a lot of carbs to lower the fat and protein content in my dogs' diets as GSDs are so prone to allergies and leaky gut syndrome. I also feed fruits and veggies because food has power and if I can prevent disease at a very early stage by feeding phytonutrients and maybe improving physical performance, that's what I'm going to do.

It's just silly to ignore all nutrition information and just throw food at your dog. Even if you go with the wolf example, I have yet to see a wolf that eats primarily chickens and domesticated livestock.


----------



## shell nyc (Jul 19, 2010)

Elaine said:


> Dogs haven't been wolves in a VERY long time and I wouldn't feed them like that. I feed my dog as an individual and feed him with the very best nutrition I can possibly find. I do feed a lot of carbs to lower the fat and protein content in my dogs' diets as GSDs are so prone to allergies and leaky gut syndrome.


I'd really like to see the research you are basing your high carb, lower fat/protein diet on. While I personally believe dogs are carnivores and do not need vegetables as a steady part of their diet, I can also buy the argument for supplementing with processed veggies to possibly assure all micronutrients are being accounted for. However, nothing in MY research has shown that dogs need carbs. 
- research shows that cancer cells feel preferentially on simple carbs 
- dogs preferentially utilize fat for energy,not carbs; in fact, there is NO need for carbohydrates in their diet
- backing this up is the non-trivial fact that dogs do not make salivary amylase. They do have pancreatic amylase however the production of it is based on what they ingest (ie, they'll make the enzyme if they need it however it's not something they expect to use every meal).


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

shell nyc - I don't believe dogs need carbs. I do believe dogs need the vitamin and minerals found in fruits and veges such as vitamin C. I would rather feed a whole food source vitamin C than megadose with a partial component of C. If you look up dog required nutrients you will find a pdf that lists the daily required needs. Have to go right now and will check the thread later so let me know if you have problems finding it. I'm pretty sure I saved it somewhere.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> shell nyc - I don't believe dogs need carbs. I do believe dogs need the vitamin and minerals found in fruits and veges such as vitamin C. I would rather feed a whole food source vitamin C than megadose with a partial component of C. If you look up dog required nutrients you will find a pdf that lists the daily required needs. Have to go right now and will check the thread later so let me know if you have problems finding it. I'm pretty sure I saved it somewhere.


Don't dogs produce their own vitamin C?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Don't dogs produce their own vitamin C?


Yes, they do. But do all dogs always produce enough? If so, then why is supplementation recommended in so many cases? Those have always been my questions.  Until someone can give me a satisfactory answer, I stick with my thought that dogs needs small servings of items that provide such vitamins and minerals. there seems to be two sides of RAW feeders...the side the believes some produce should be fed and those that don't. I think both sides have perfectly healthy dogs.


----------



## shell nyc (Jul 19, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> shell nyc - I don't believe dogs need carbs. I do believe dogs need the vitamin and minerals found in fruits and veges such as vitamin C. I would rather feed a whole food source vitamin C than megadose with a partial component of C. If you look up dog required nutrients you will find a pdf that lists the daily required needs. Have to go right now and will check the thread later so let me know if you have problems finding it. I'm pretty sure I saved it somewhere.



Thanks Jax. I agree with you re: whole food sources. I'm not against feeding fruits and veges (my little guy ate tomatoes with us last night) but I don't formally incorporate it into his diet plan either. My comment was more to the person who stated they were purposely feeding a high carb, low fat/protein diet.


----------

