# Knowledge or Opinion on Schutzund



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

I talked to Lobo's (my GSD friend) owner about schutzund to hear about her knowledge and opinion. You see I told her that I would like to join a schutzund club to learn more about it. She said she doesn't know that much about it but been talked to by someone that schutzund is negative and they hit the dog a lot and can make dogs mean. She also said I may not like it because it's negative. Well I'm not so sure if it's negative or not. Don't know much about it, despite my research. She was going to go to get a GSD in Santa Cruz about over a year ago but decided not to get one there because they emphasize schutzund. Although if schutzund doesn't work out I can still find other things to do with GSDs like Lobo's owner and others suggested.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think before deciding anything about the sport, you need to go to a few clubs and visit. I don't think it's negative at all. The 'stick' isn't used to harm the dog. It's also not like it's a steel pipe or base ball bat! IMO, those dogs are generally much more controlled than your average dog. Obedience is an absolute must. I saw dogs who were HAPPY. They were engaged with their handlers. They were happy to work. It's easy to take what someone says at face value. Educate your self, and go check this out for yourself. As far as 'hitting the dog a lot" I never saw that. I'd also say "wrong" about them being mean. It takes a stable dog to do SchH. The club I went to requires a temperament test, and doesn't allow dogs that are aggressive (like you're thinking) into the club. Trialing an aggressive dog would be very difficult, because any show of aggression (except during protection phase) disqualifies you.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

@Jag so is it common for people to be misunderstood by the schutzund sport?


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## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

Jag said:


> I think before deciding anything about the sport, you need to go to a few clubs and visit. I don't think it's negative at all. The 'stick' isn't used to harm the dog. It's also not like it's a steel pipe or base ball bat! IMO, those dogs are generally much more controlled than your average dog. Obedience is an absolute must. I saw dogs who were HAPPY. They were engaged with their handlers. They were happy to work. It's easy to take what someone says at face value. Educate your self, and go check this out for yourself. As far as 'hitting the dog a lot" I never saw that. I'd also say "wrong" about them being mean. It takes a stable dog to do SchH. The club I went to requires a temperament test, and doesn't allow dogs that are aggressive (like you're thinking) into the club. Trialing an aggressive dog would be very difficult, because any show of aggression (except during protection phase) disqualifies you.


To go off of what Jag said. Fiirst just get your pupster feeling cozy in your home then start to look into the sport. You dont have to do schutzhund if you dont want to. Many people start to do it then stop because its "Time consuming" or its too much for them... I guess  Many dogs will want to work and will be happy and have fun doing schuzthund. The helpers aren't beating the dog. They are just trying to see if the dog will let go of the bite because they get scared of the stick... I believe that schutzhund dogs are better trained and they wont go around bitting someone. The first schutzhund club I went to the trainer said that schutzhund dogs are way better trained and are actually less likely to bite someone since you have them under control and trained. If you train them well you will have a loyal trusted companion. Like what Jag said, You can't have an aggressive dog. They wont allow it. You must have a calm obedient dog at all times. 

GSD's aren't just for schutzhund they are great at being your best friend. If you get a pup with parents that did schutzhund. Most likely the puppy will have a good drive and if you decide not to do schutzhund you will just have to work on controlling those drives.

I dont know if many are mistaken with schutzhund but if you inform yourself about it you'll find that it it just a great dog sport. I mean my 10 year old brother finds it cool. If he asks a question I'll answer it with the truth and he'll be like awesome!  I guess it all depends on who you ask. Its like a prong collar. If you show a person off the street a picture they'll probably be like "Ew! What kind of disgusting evil torturous monster would ever use that on a dog." (I mean my mom said something like that when I told her we need one for schutzhund but when I told her more info about it she warmed up to the idea and bought one) But if you show one to someone who knows about the prong collar they'll say "Yeah I need one for training or I need one because my dog pulls, and that it doesn't torture the dog it just makes them focus and listen to you." Haha! Is that confusing?? Idk. Schutzhund is just one big fun sport!


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## 4score (Nov 4, 2011)

My troll radar is flashing.


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## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

4score said:


> My troll radar is flashing.


Me?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

4score said:


> My troll radar is flashing.


He's a teenager...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think 4score is talking about the OP. 4score's radar is off on this one.
i think the OP is young and starting to learn about GSD's.



4score said:


> My troll radar is flashing.





PuppyKono said:


> Me?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

research GSD's and find out all the great things they can do.
there's no sport designed to hurt the dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

From what I have seen there is both a lot of GOOD in schutzhund training and some bad depending on the background and direction of the team. I believe some things are misinterpreted (like the clatter stick). Some of the dogsport trainers I know have the best mastry of motivational training methods.

You have mentioned a certain amount of respect for Cesar Milan yet a lot of dog folks I know consider HIS techniques to be abusive. Some of the concepts you have mentioned about alpha and all that are old school to many and out the window. 

What you NEED to do is go see for yourself and if you perceive something as offensive need to ask on the sport for an explanation. Also some dogs bred for serious work do have stronger drives and require a more experienced handler.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It's a misunderstood sport--as are all bitework sports. There is good and bad within schutzhund and it's not for everyone. You have to go visit clubs yourself and make the determination yourself. I will say that I do biteowrk with one of my dogs and while he is naturally high on the suspicion level bitework didn't make him any more suspicious and no one out in the real world would guess my well-adjusted and social dog "bites" people for fun.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

GSDElsa said:


> It's a misunderstood sport--as are all bitework sports. There is good and bad within schutzhund and it's not for everyone. You have to go visit clubs yourself and make the determination yourself. I will say that I do biteowrk with one of my dogs and while he is naturally high on the suspicion level bitework didn't make him any more suspicious and no one out in the real world would guess my well-adjusted and social dog "bites" people for fun.


A reasoned, balanced response.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I guess I'd take that person's opinion for what it's worth... she had no clue about it other than what she 'heard' but passes on that misinformation to again be shared. 
There is much more to SchH than the protection side...most people have no clue what it involves.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Most people that have issues with SchH either have never seen it and are basing their opinions on hear-say; they have tried it, were no good at it, so it is bad; or tried it, their dog was no good, so it is bad. 

Visit some clubs, go to some trials, and form an educated opinion of your own. You are in the Bay area? Some might be able to recommend clubs to visit.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I guess I'd take that person's opinion for what it's worth... she had no clue about it other than what she 'heard' but passes on that misinformation to again be shared.
> There is much more to SchH than the protection side...most people have no clue what it involves.


Mmmmm, I see your point. What I took, probably because I was looking for it, is that it's not for everyone, there is good and bad (depending on the club), and that one shouldn't formulate an opinion without first visiting a few clubs.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> There is much more to SchH than the protection side...most people have no clue what it involves.


There is definitely something to be said about that. I have one IPO dog, and to get there we spent an average of 1-2 times a week working protection. Every club is different but that was our schedule - due to needing to get together and need for a helper etc. Even in those times, the entire training session rarely takes more than 20 minutes. So 20-40 minutes a week working protection.

Yet, when people ask me how much time I spend training for schutzhund (by the way schutzhund is also known as IPO) I tell them we train every day, sometimes twice a day. So if we spend 20-40 minutes A WEEK training protection what do we do every day? Of course - tracking, obedience, drive work, foundation, etc etc etc etc etc - it goes on and on!

So very true, there is much more to schutzhund than just the protection! Alas, protection is the phase that gets the "cool" factor I guess so it is what people think of when they think schutzhund.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

@
onyx'girl

Yeah I saw a video the other day I guy with some flingy stick thing and I noticed carefully that was NOT hitting the dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dog does get hit by the stick...and should be able to take it. It is a padded stick and in trial the dog gets hit twice. 
They use to use long reed sticks but now it is a padded one. My dog powers up when he's fighting, and the stick hits are part of the picture.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

just a brief comment.....schutzhund was developed to see if dogs complied with the working genetics of the breed standard so that they could be used for breeding...one of the primary uses for the breed is/was police work. Think about a police dog trying to catch a criminal....when he catches him, and is holding him with a grip (bite), the criminal will be kicking and screaming and hitting at the dog to try to get away. The stick hit is a simulation of adversarial interaction to which the dog must respond in a strong determined way to keep the criminal under control.

If the dog cannot take the pressure of a hit with a padded stick, then they certainly could not take a kicking, screaming criminal beating on them as a police dog.

Lee


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

@
onyx'girl

Does that hurt the dog in order to endure physical pain?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lobobear44 said:


> @
> onyx'girl
> 
> Does that hurt the dog in order to endure physical pain?


No it doesn't...if you've ever dealt with a large dog its actually pretty hard to inflict pain on them. A well balanced shepherd can take a lot of pain and most of them actually get really riled up by it.

My only caution with Schutzhund is that it is a HUGE commitment. I'm talking time, money, energy. It's not just like regular obedience training where you go, train your dog once a week, for a few months, and then get a pretty good house pet. For many people this sport becomes their hobby...the only thing they tend to do after work or on weekends. In order to move onto protection...most clubs require very very good obedience which is only achieved through time and effort on the handler's part. And tracking...don't get me started on the time commitment that is.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The only time I've seen what someone would call abuse on SchH is when people try to force the sport in dogs that are not genetically suited for it. Not all dogs can do Schutzhund, it is demanding for both the owner and the dog, yet for some reason some people cling to it even when the dog is not having fun anymore. But when a dog is having fun... IT'S HAVING FUN!! and for most of them, to train is the best thing that can happen to their lives.

The stick hits are more about psychological pressure than physical pain, if the dog has the nerve to endure that pressure, the pain is actually meaningless. Think of a person playing his favorite sport, if he receives an occasional hit on the heat of the game, he probably won't even notice. Same with the dog, while he will yelp if you step on his tail, a good dog will only fire up with the stick hits once in drive.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I think you have to really grasp what German Shepherd were originally bred to do. Police work, Militiary, Herding, Guarding and also ballanced family pet. Schutzhund originally began as a test to determine if a German Shepherd was worthy of being bred, it has since morphed into the sport you see today. 
In the protection phase the dog has to not only bite the sleeve it must be able to handle being hit by the stick, yelled and dragged around by the decoy.
Watch vids on you tube, you will see most dogs cant wait to get to the helper and take that sleeve, you will also see them hanging onto the sleeve with their tail wagging. These dogs enjoy this type of work because thats what they were bred to do. The stick hits are meant to put pressure on the dog not actually injure the dog. They test the dogs nerve and ability to stay in the fight. A good dog will actually increase their intensity upon reciept of pressure.
If you have ever done any kind of serious martial arts you will have sparred, wrestled etc. This includes physcal pressure which in some cases causes minor pain not injury. Its all part of the learning experience and mental and physical preperation.

As for whether Schutzhund dogs are mean, simply no if the training is done properly you should have a highly trained confident well adjusted dog. Do people with martial arts titles go around beating people up just because they can?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

@Blitzkrieg1

Lol I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do but unable to go back to it due to drama. Yeah seems pretty much the same. I feel reasurred by the sport. Guess it all depends on the training dogs do.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> @
> onyx'girl
> 
> Does that hurt the dog in order to endure physical pain?


I ask the helper to hit my male hard. Not to cause pain (it doesn't) but it makes him perform better... He has a "is that all you got?" Attitude. Like rocky in the boxing ring 

Some dogs don't enjoy the stick hits. Those dogs you don't train and work the same. 

Think about it this way, does fighting in MMA or practicing martial arts make a person and meaner than they were? If anything it gives them a self control they didn't have before.


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