# Don't Pet The Dang Dog!!



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Funny video, true, to the point. Share it! 

Warning expletives pepper the language of the trainer.

I embedded link out of respect for forum rules, click link below.



Dont pet my dog <snipped> Peter Caine Dog training, Brooklyn NYC - YouTube


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I didn't know Joe Dirt was a dog trainer...daaaaaaaaaang!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Me neither! 

Still, this is something that pisses me off too and if I have to wear a ratty baseball cap and swear like a sailor to get the point across, so be it. :wild:


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

I thoroughly enjoyed that  

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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Hehehe. I wanna drink a beer with that guy.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

interesting. but walk your dog in seclusion if you don't want folks interacting with your dog.


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## Tratkins (Feb 15, 2014)

Very funny! Go get your own dog!!!


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Tratkins said:


> Very funny! Go get your own dog!!!


That was my favorite part lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL, never realized people would actually do that?? I'm guessing he has seen it happen a lot?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Lol don't pet the dog! 
OK you can rub the cat.

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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No, no and NO!

If more people would just mind their own business we could take our dogs to a lot more public places.

You can make two arguments against this "all dogs are inherently public property" meme that's taken hold.

1) you don't allow perfect strangers to walk up and start fondling your child out of the blue why should it be tolerated with dogs?

2) Dogs are property just like your car, wallet or purse, since when is it OK for a complete stranger to walk up grab your purse, wallet or just jump into your car?

Take your pick but either way this guy is 150% spot on.




huntergreen said:


> interesting. but walk your dog in seclusion if you don't want folks interacting with your dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's happened to me several times. On one occasion I watched as a couple walked by with their golden (who was heeling very nicely on leash btw) some people picnicking near by literally try to lure the dog with food to come to them. They stuck a container of food under the dogs nose.

Yup, that bad. 

Now that Ilda is full grown I don't have that problem though, she's got the aloof GSD thing down pat.



Chip18 said:


> LOL, never realized people would actually do that?? I'm guessing he has seen it happen a lot?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The other day I was walking a client dog what was extremely leash aggressive to dogs and has sent one to the vet before coming in for training. So we were still working on it although she was by that point almost completely over it when some dog walking a lady on a long leash pulled our way and the lady just let her do it and was going to just let them meet. Had to rush the dog off the side of the path to prevent a face to face but the dog didn't react so yay? Dog is trained.

Never struck her as odd I was walking a small dog on both a prong collar and an e collar despite the fact I'm an in shape 200 pound guy.

Less recent example was when Zebu was a puppy and was losing his mind barking at a stuffed animal dog at a Petsmart adoption table, weirdly enough ignoring the real dogs at the table, and some lady let her dog come up behind him and goose him when he was in that mind state. I didn't even see her coming. No fight happened but had he been older that easily could have been a bite.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

gwen, fist my dogs are not a child. i find mostly children are the ones who want to pet my dogs. a well trained dog will ignore people trying to "lure" the dog with food. petting my dog is not damaging to the dog.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Nobody has ever just walked up and pet my dogs. A couple of people have asked before petting them. I attribute this mostly to my body language. I don't want people approaching me when I'm training/walking my dogs and it may show. I'm also very aware of my surroundings when I'm out.

If anyone did just walk up and touch/pet my dogs without asking first they would hear a not very polite response from me, but I see people well before they get in distance to pet the dogs.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

this guy is as high as a kite...

WOW,


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The man addressed the "well trained" dog aspect in his video.

O.k. Then argument 2 fits for you.

He made valid points and I will not and do not accept that my dog is fundamentally public property.

It would be much better, for the well trained and not so well trained dogs if strangers would leave them alone, period.



huntergreen said:


> gwen, fist my dogs are not a child. i find mostly children are the ones who want to pet my dogs. a well trained dog will ignore people trying to "lure" the dog with food. petting my dog is not damaging to the dog.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

You have no idea how many times a day I want to yell this to everyone around me!! Lol. Thankfully my girl ignores it now.... But it still makes me so angry! 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Guess it kinda depends on the dog, my guy is well trained and most, people I encounter grateful for that. No problems in public I get lots of compliments but few folks want to actually pet him!

I couldn't imagine someone trying to "lure" him away from me?? Live and learn.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually, talk with people who have working service dogs. Even when the dogs have vests on saying the 'please do not pet', 'working service dog' people try to interfere. 

Hang out with some service dog owners, you'll hear a lot of examples of this problem. 

It doesn't happen all the time when I'm out with mine but on several occasions I've had people whistle, make clicking sounds while patting their leg and last week while working (with my trainer) a guy drove by, slowed down, and started barking really loud! :crazy:






Chip18 said:


> Guess it kinda depends on the dog, my guy is well trained and most, people I encounter grateful for that. No problems in public I get lots of compliments but few folks want to actually pet him!
> 
> I couldn't imagine someone trying to "lure" him away from me?? Live and learn.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I'm stunned but I guess you should never be surprised by how stupid some people can be! Now I know. 

Boxers(American) immediately come to mind as a dog that can be easily subjected to being lured!

My reaction to something like that happening on a walk would make that guy look mild!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Baillif said:


> I didn't know Joe Dirt was a dog trainer...daaaaaaaaaang!


My thoughts exactly.. hahaha!


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

When training is done correctly, every single distraction becomes a cue to watch you more closely for the dog----and respond only to your commands.

---------" On one occasion I watched as a couple walked by with their golden (who was heeling very nicely on leash btw) some people picnicking near by literally try to lure the dog with food to come to them. They stuck a container of food under the dogs nose."-----------

This is why you never use treats for training. 

Two things to keep in mind. You have NO control over anything except yourself and your dog. But, when you have trained properly, that is all you need.

It is easier to train your dog than people...............dogs are smarter and will learn, people won't.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wetdog said:


> This is why you never use treats for training.


Not sure about "never" but I take your point! I was always kinda "tight fisted" with the treats myself! Kinda of a "cause I say so guy" myself!


Wetdog said:


> Two things to keep in mind. You have NO control over anything except yourself and your dog. But, when you have trained properly, that is all you need.
> 
> It is easier to train your dog than people...............dogs are smarter and will learn, people won't.


Company and guest, yes other wise "perfectly trained Boxers" company came over dog listens, company doesn't chaos ensues!

Hard to train "guest!"

Will add making folks feel "welcome is not really a problem with my GSD!" More like "nice to see you..when are you leaving!"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually, in this case the Golden did really well. I watched the whole incident unfold. 

Having said that you know what, it's flippin' rude and wrong for those yahoos to do that. I do NOT care how well your dog is trained.

I'd love to have seen them try that with the trainer in the video, now that would have been interesting to see!




Wetdog said:


> When training is done correctly, every single distraction becomes a cue to watch you more closely for the dog----and respond only to your commands.
> 
> ---------" On one occasion I watched as a couple walked by with their golden (who was heeling very nicely on leash btw) some people picnicking near by literally try to lure the dog with food to come to them. They stuck a container of food under the dogs nose."-----------
> 
> ...


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Having said that you know what, it's flippin' rude and wrong for those yahoos to do that. I do NOT care how well your dog is trained.


 
Yes. That is true.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thank you. I do appreciate you posting that.



Wetdog said:


> Yes. That is true.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

You have no idea how many times a day I want to yell this to everyone around me!! Lol. Thankfully my girl ignores it now.... But it still makes me so angry! She is a SD... So that means EVERY human wants to call her. Yesterday we had two kids on hands and knees barking and growling at her, as their mom smiled and laughed watching her children crawl up behind a strange dog. 





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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I LOVE this video!

Sabi was a dream dog and highly tolerant of fools and small children, Bud is well behaved but don't push your luck and my darling Shadow has issues.

They are my dogs and my responsibility, ask me nicely or walk away. I have made this guy look like a Sunday school teacher in defense of Shadow. Muzzled, leashed and appropriately moved aside and blocked I have literally had people hanging over me, trying to pet her while crooning 'nice puppy'.
Does she look nice? Does she seem happy? I have had people try to snatch the leash from me, I have had people growl at Bud-no not kidding, I have had people try and lure all of my dogs with toys and treats. I have tried being nice, I have tried being polite. Now I just tell them where to go and how to get there.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, that's what I hear from SD owners especially. Sorry you have to deal with that....but glad the video gave you a chuckle. 



Mishka&Milo said:


> You have no idea how many times a day I want to yell this to everyone around me!! Lol. Thankfully my girl ignores it now.... But it still makes me so angry! She is a SD... So that means EVERY human wants to call her. Yesterday we had two kids on hands and knees barking and growling at her, as their mom smiled and laughed watching her children crawl up behind a strange dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Never had someone try to pat dex or ty, but shiloh people are drawn too. Kids are like awesome to her. I took her to the park one night and she was swarmed by kids who loved her floppy years, her tail was going a mile a minute and she was on her back in heaven. The other two dont get patted, they avoid unless im standing there talking to them then usually the person will beable to get a pat in.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup, that's what I hear from SD owners especially. Sorry you have to deal with that....but glad the video gave you a chuckle.



It's okay... Thanks for posting! 


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

wow, still say you don't want your dog touched, train in seclusion. maybe because i live in farm area, people enjoy animals in general esp a good looking well trained gsd.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i also socialise my dogs as soon as there puppy shots have given protection. i attend a local sporting events. people love to pet the puppy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> i also socialise my dogs as soon as there puppy shots have given protection. i attend a local sporting events. people love to pet the puppy.


That's great. What about the people who didn't have that option? Or folks like me who have a dog with some problems? I have every right to walk around and as long as she is properly managed, so does Shadow. I should not have to deal with crazy people who are not only invading my personal space but touching something that belongs to me. 
It is my responsibility as her guardian to ensure that rude peoples actions do not put her in jeopardy.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> wow, still say you don't want your dog touched, train in seclusion. maybe because i live in farm area, people enjoy animals in general esp a good looking well trained gsd.


I agree ......people need to just chill out......stop being so serious.....no wonder the dogs are uptight...
I don't give much credence to a guy who usese language like that to get his point across but that's just me.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> That's great. What about the people who didn't have that option? Or folks like me who have a dog with some problems? I have every right to walk around and as long as she is properly managed, so does Shadow. I should not have to deal with crazy people who are not only invading my personal space but touching something that belongs to me.
> It is my responsibility as her guardian to ensure that rude peoples actions do not put her in jeopardy.


Crazy people......really??? Since the dawn of time people really like seeing dogs out in public.....hardly crazy......if your dog can't handle the odd pat here and there then leave it at home.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Having said that you know what, it's flippin' rude and wrong for those yahoos to do that. I do NOT care how well your dog is trained.


I completely agree with you as well. 

It was a good video, and he definitely has a point. 

I had my share of run-ins with morons who bark and whistle at my dog, but I take it as distraction training. But with maturity, she has developed that GSD aloofness and ignores them anyway. 

I don't let any Tom, **** and Harry pet my dog either, there is no need for that. I do occasionally cave when a family or a GSD lover asks politely to pet my dog. I know she has a great temperament, no need to keep 'socializing' her with strangers. 

People need to be less uptight about the guy in the video, and have a little more humor.  I had a good chuckle.

[edit: Sorry, Mods. I didn't realize that name was on the censored list. It was not meant to be used in that context.]


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

sparra said:


> Crazy people......really??? Since the dawn of time people really like seeing dogs out in public.....hardly crazy......if your dog can't handle the odd pat here and there then leave it at home.


Really??? So how does one train a dog? How specifically do I deal with my dogs fear of cars unless I take her where they are? Or her fear of moving things in general? I'm sure the odd pet she could handle, people around here grab.

I also suffer from moderate PTSD, I don't like people touching me, it gives me chest pains. Should I stay home to?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I found the video quite amusing. Maybe Sparra doesn't think so cuz the video is talking about people like him/her?  

I've had kids bark at my dog. I've had a little girl open a screen door to try and pet my dog sitting on the other side. Things happen. Gotta train your dog. But I do feel every dog whether well behaved or not has the right to walk down the street without some bafoon trying to touch it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I didn't find the video funny at all. 

The man was angry. Why? Someone he knew, some dog he knew probably bit someone who came up and petted it. Possibly one of the dogs he trained. Not the dog he currently was walking, probably. But the man was seriously angry, and not because someone tried to interact with the dog, probably because the interaction was not appropriate, and consequences happened. The dog needed more training. The dog has a bite history. 

Yes, go and get your own dog. That's really great advice. Not everyone out there _should_ own a dog. Sorry folks, but if only the people that should own dogs, owned dogs, maybe there wouldn't be any problem at all with all the people that shouldn't own dogs for whatever reason interacting with the dogs that are there. So someone realizes they work too much, and they travel too much to own a dog, and have chosen not to. They should also decide that they should live in a world devoid of canines because they do not own one.

It is really not a good video, because it gives the wrong message. It says, that if I need to train my dog, if I need to correct my dog, then well, maybe I don't have to. Maybe it is really every one else's problem, not my dog's problem. So I am going to sit back and not socialize my dog, and not work on their reactivity or problems, because everyone else in the world should just go and get their own dog and leave mine be. 

The people that truly need to see this man's opinion on the subject are not dog people and they are not spending time on the internet looking up dog videos. So they aren't seeing it. Who is seeing it are those who have dogs with issues, and wish the rest of the world would ignore their dog so that they can be lazier, less vigilant with their dog. 

If your dog cannot manage normal human contact, than you, the owner has to head that off before it gets to the place where you need to correct your dog. 

Please, people, if your dog has an issue, then politely tell people that he isn't a people-dog, sorry. But understand that not everyone out there that loves dogs, owns one. Maybe some people love dogs enough not to own one right now: while they are yet in school, while they are renting, while they are working a lot of overtime, while they are spending nearly full-time helping with aging parents, while they travel a lot for their job. For those of us whose dogs are not having problems, please share a moment with someone who can't or doesn't own a dog right now. 

Don't hang on to them, putting your anti-social personality onto the dog. 

I disliked the video. I disagree with it. I understand the guy's frustration. But it is not something we should embrace.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

simba405 said:


> But I do feel every dog whether well behaved or not has the right to walk down the street without some bafoon trying to touch it.


No, every dog does not have the RIGHT to walk down the street. If someone is walking an ill behaved dog down a busy street.....they are the bafoon......


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

sparra said:


> No, every dog does not have the RIGHT to walk down the street. If someone is walking an ill behaved dog down a busy street.....they are the bafoon......


No it literally is their right. Look it up.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

simba405 said:


> No it literally is their right. Look it up.


People also have the right to common sense......


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So the general consensus here is
that no dog that isn't perfectly trained should be out in public, _how do we train them then?_
that every person around has every right to do whatever they please to my dogs whether it is nice or not, _then why am I held responsible for what is essentially public property?_
that I as a person have no right to expect personal space and that a person who gets upset about this is wrong.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Yes and people don't use common sense. Dogs don't come trained. Why call and slap your knee to a dog trying to get its attention? Some dogs are out in the real world to train. You don't fix aggression issues by never taking the dog outside. 

Maybe your dog came out the womb well behaved cuz you're special? Mine also came out the womb pretty well trained so I find it assuming when people purposely try to get my dogs attention. But I do understand the frustration of owners who have issues with their dogs. You, on the other hand, don't get the big picture.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

sparra said:


> If someone is walking an ill behaved dog down a busy street.....they are the bafoon......


I agree with this, especially the busy street part. At the end of the day, we are responsible for our dog's behaviour and we need to manage that responsibly for the well-being and enjoyment of others out in public, which includes morons not hooting and whistling at our dogs. But we do not live in a perfect world. 

On another tangent, I don't see the man as angry. Frustrated and annoyed, yes. But certainly not "seriously angry". I have been seriously angry, and as a 4'11" person, I would make this gentleman look like a ***** cat. 

I personally did not read that video as putting the dog in a sensor-less box, so to speak, and not knowing anything further, I would be hesitant to assume what kind of dog he has/had besides the one he was walking. I think too much was being read into that video at this point, and assuming too much. I mean, I certainly did not read that way. :shrug:


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

simba405 said:


> You don't fix aggression issues by never taking the dog outside.
> 
> You, on the other hand, don't get the big picture.


If people want to take their aggressive dogs out in public to "fix" them.......go right ahead....if it bites a child who runs up and pats it....dead dog.....that is the big picture....no judge is gonna sit there and listen to you whinge all day about how the child was a bafoon and shouldn't have pet your aggressive dog......and I'm the one missing the big picture.....


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> So the general consensus here is
> that no dog that isn't perfectly trained should be out in public, _how do we train them then?_
> that every person around has every right to do whatever they please to my dogs whether it is nice or not, _then why am I held responsible for what is essentially public property?_
> that I as a person have no right to expect personal space and that a person who gets upset about this is wrong.


I think the key word in Sparra's comment was "busy". 

There is no such thing as a perfectly trained dog, so we have to aim for well-trained and that takes the pressure off.  

But if a dog has behavioural issues, it would not be wise to expose that dog to that much stimuli. And if the dog is aggressive, then certainly a busy street would be a very bad idea. Yes, it is important to train that dog but I think Sparra meant it would be prudent to start that dog off in an area where there is less sensory stimulation and work that dog up in the level of distraction. 

I don't think it is about every person having the right to do as they please to your dog. You have every right to tell someone not to pet your dog if they approach it w/o your permission. I do that. You also have every right to deny when someone asks to pet your dog. 

Hope I helped clear some of that up. I am not taking anybody side, but I think there is a lot of miscommunication in the heat of debate.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I don't let people pet my dog without asking. Not because he is aggressive, I simply find it very bad manners for someone to come up and just start petting someone else's dog without asking.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Ack. Sorry, mods! I didn't think that word was censored too! Twice in a thread, this is not good for my reputation. :blush: I definitely did not mean it like that! I have to be more careful that some words now have double entendre. I am too old for this.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I guess the word "public" can mean different things. A busy street, a quiet street, a kids playground etc.
If you have a dog that is not great with kids then don't take it to a kids playground where kids are gonna want to pat it. 
If you have a dog who misbehaves don't walk it down a busy street until it is under control and safe. 
I don't think most of the general public are bafoons or stupid when it comes to dogs. I think many like dogs and wrongly or rightly will assume that a dog at a park with kids won't bite kids or a dog walking down a busy street is safe.......that is not stupidity......


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

See, what I got from that video was that the guy lives in a place similar to the one I live in.
People around here feel free to try and feed my dogs, to grab leashes from my hand, to try and shove me out of the way to hug them, to let their dogs assault us, to pull tails, pinch ears ....
Do you understand now?
I NEVER take Shadow out in public without her muzzle, but that opens her up to all manner of idiotic behavior by complete strangers. When I find a sane person, I generally enlist their help with her training, but they are exceedingly rare in these parts.
As a result I am now way more over the top then the guy in the video, so I guess I just get where he's coming from.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

My dog has to be exercised just like anyone else's, he is aggressive to dogs so I try my best to walk him away from where I know they will be, but I can't completely avoid them. He wears a muzzle but that doesn't really seem to bother anybody. I move across the street when I see someone else walking their dog and I have had people literally chase us with their dogs in tow to try and come see Eko to pet him. I say it's not you, it's your dog, and they tell me their dog is friendly. Fine, but mine is not, just keep going on your walk and I'll keep going on mine and we won't have any problems. 

He doesn't mind being pet, he's pretty friendly as long as you don't sneak up on him. But I can relate to the frustration I don't think a dog being out in public is an invitation to come up and pet the dog. Especially dogs that are working, I wouldn't run up to pet a SD or a K9, and those are highly trained dogs.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> People around here feel free to try and feed my dogs, to grab leashes from my hand, to try and shove me out of the way to hug them, to let their dogs assault us, to pull tails, pinch ears ....
> Do you understand now?


Yes.....that kind of behavior would make me angry too


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup: Good morning.

On this we agree for sure! I'm glad you found the video amusing. 




simba405 said:


> I found the video quite amusing. Maybe Sparra doesn't think so cuz the video is talking about people like him/her?
> 
> I've had kids bark at my dog. I've had a little girl open a screen door to try and pet my dog sitting on the other side. Things happen. Gotta train your dog.* But I do feel every dog whether well behaved or not has the right to walk down the street without some bafoon trying to touch i*t.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Usually people who make comments like this trainer did aren't referring to extreme cases, such as dangerously aggressive dogs. 

He's expressing a frustration at a trend that has enabled or encouraged a culture where the pendulum has swung too far in the direction that dogs can be treated almost like public property.

I'm glad that we are seeing some push back on this, if anything just for balance.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> That's great. What about the people who didn't have that option? Or folks like me who have a dog with some problems? I have every right to walk around and as long as she is properly managed, so does Shadow. I should not have to deal with crazy people who are not only invading my personal space but touching something that belongs to me.
> It is my responsibility as her guardian to ensure that rude peoples actions do not put her in jeopardy.


ehhh, you do not have the right to walk an aggressive dog in public. that is just waiting for an a bite incident. don't expect the world to step aside because the dog was not socialized properly.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

DobbyDad said:


> I don't let people pet my dog without asking. Not because he is aggressive, I simply find it very bad manners for someone to come up and just start petting someone else's dog without asking.


i always take the time to school folks about asking to pet someones dog. it is usually a young mother and kids. we should all remember, we are not just gsd owners, but ambassadors for the breed. what your dog does reflects on all gsd owners.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup: Good morning.
> 
> On this we agree for sure! I'm glad you found the video amusing.


i found the video to be low class. i have never found all that cussing to be entertaining. i have found it is indicative of someone with little self control and i would question his ability to train or own a dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> i found the video to be low class. i have never found all that cussing to be entertaining. i have found it is indicative of someone with little self control and i would question his ability to train or own a dog.


I loved the video so much I shared it on FB. I totally get where this guy is coming from. 

I do not walk my dogs off my property. Still the local dog walker comes around several times a day with a happy happy "hi neighbor" attitude. I've changed my schedule. I even take my dogs out after full dark to avoid her and yet a few weeks ago I'm outside its dark and cold and suddenly the dogs go off. I hear out of the Darkness. Hi all, oh no worries their barking doesn't bug me. Grrr... It bugs me. I don't want them chasing her around the fence barking. I don't want them figuring out how to go over or under to get to her in your face golden thingy. I have tried being friendly that just encouraged her. I've tried being rude, she just doesn't get it. I even put up no trespassing signs across my front fence. Nope didn't even slow her down. Ever day several times a day she walks her dang dog down two sides of my fence across private property like its her right. 

It's not like there isn't plenty of other desert to walk her dogs across. Is it really necessary to walk my fence? Apparently it is. *sigh*


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

if it is your property that she is trespassing on, call the cops. sounds more like you don't want anyone to walk dogs near your house, so move to a more secluded area area.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

This is exactly why I want to stick a bunch of "Do Not Pet" patches all over my dog's future harness. I'm not sure why, but Charlie barks at other dogs on walks and he tries to walk towards people why they get very close. I'm trying to get him to stop this. I'll probably make a thread about this, asking for training advice.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

huntergreen said:


> i also socialise my dogs as soon as there puppy shots have given protection. i attend a local sporting events. people love to pet the puppy.


So do I. But out of all my GSD's past and present, I have one that just does not like little kids running up on her. It upsets Mayhem. 

I still have the right (and should continue to) walk her in public without expecting to let every little kid pet her. If I say no you cannot pet the dog - I mean NO you CANNOT pet MY DOG! 

I was walking with a friend and her Sheltie at a local walking track and had a family approach with thier little kid who yelled doggie! And ran at May. Did not run at the Sheltie. I stepped off the track and between May and the kid and said no, please leave the dog alone. The parents were offended that I would not let their kid approach my dog. I said she is not real fond of little kids running up on her. They said if he did not like kids she had no right in public. I got PO'd and they got a blast. I told them at least my dog was leashed, under control and well behaved and I was sorry they could not say the same for their kid. 

If I say no I mean NO! And I should not be expected to subject my dog to every person that wants to pet her all, she is MY DOG! And I don't go grabbing at their kids. 

Had I been wlking Kayos I would have gladly alloed the child to pet her as long as A) They asked permission. and B) They were gentle with my old dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> See, what I got from that video was that the guy lives in a place similar to the one I live in.
> People around here feel free to try and feed my dogs, to grab leashes from my hand, to try and shove me out of the way to hug them, to let their dogs assault us, to pull tails, pinch ears ....
> Do you understand now?
> I NEVER take Shadow out in public without her muzzle, but that opens her up to all manner of idiotic behavior by complete strangers. When I find a sane person, I generally enlist their help with her training, but they are exceedingly rare in these parts.
> As a result I am now way more over the top then the guy in the video, so I guess I just get where he's coming from.


This isn't a location problem, it is how you carry yourself. Sorry, but you are somehow inviting people to walk all over you, and I doubt it only has to do with interaction with your dog. You need to start projecting a different set of information, own your own power, and stand up for yourself. Unless you live in a hippy commune, people do not do what you say they do unless they feel they can get away with it. People do not pull tails and pinch ears and try to feed your dog, shove us out of the way, and take the leash out of your hand unless you look like a total push over. 

This has nothing to do with your size or sex. It is how a terrier can be the dominant dog in a group of dogs of all sizes. It is how he carries himself. Barking, yapping, snarling, acting all stiff -- that is not a dominant dog. A dog that walks in with his tail high, full of self-assurance -- that would be the dominant dog. We project who we are and what we will accept by how we move, not what we say. If we lack self-assurance, lack self-esteem, are afraid of people -- those signals come out and they affect us in many ways. This is a symptom. 

I don't know about the yayhoo in the video. It was low class, he may be like the barking, yapping, snarling dog all acting all stiff; or he can be perfectly ok, and complaining about other people's problems with their dogs and people. 

But dogs are not like motorcycles. If you see a cool motorcycle, you might want to go over and check it out and touch it, but you better not. Go and buy your own. A dog is something totally different. A dog has a personality of its own. It is owned by you and you are responsible for its actions, and certainly you can tell people not to pet it, but it can think for itself, and it can react on its own. You cannot expect people to stay out of a bubble you know the dimensions of to ensure that your dog won't need a correction, and that there will not be dire consequences. 

So I say, to Mr. Yayhoo, Train your dog! If it is unsafe in public, protect it! Put a muzzle on it! Keep people out of its space! 

You can't expect the world to stop turning because you are training your dog. People are distractions. And we train around people because they are distractions. While you do this, it is on you, to ensure that YOU keep a protective bubble around your dog if that is what is needed.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I live in Los Angeles. Where most of us dont even know our neighbors nevermind trying to get to know their dogs. Funny video, guy sounds pretty PO'd


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> if it is your property that she is trespassing on, call the cops. sounds more like you don't want anyone to walk dogs near your house, so move to a more secluded area area.


Not my property... an absentee owner. 

Hard to get more secluded than this, in today's world. 


My front yard gate: 










View from the back: 










View from the side: 










View from the other side: 











My Road:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

shepherdmom- beautiful location!! I would find myself right at home

Sometimes I let strangers pet my dog & sometimes I don't. Depends on my mood. When I don't I'm always polite but am usually moving at a pace that doesn't invite conversation but will say "no thanks but have a good day". 

I do not believe my dog is on display like an animal at a petting zoo just because we are in public.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Wow, much more debate on this one than I thought there would be. I guess for my two cents, I have no problems with people *approaching* my dog. I can even deal if someone is pushy about it because I'll be pushy right back. If I don't want someone petting my dog, they WILL NOT be petting my dog. 

What I don't like is when people *invade* my dog's space. It's not a greeting, it's not even a pushy approach, it's the kid that runs up behind me and yanks my dog's tail, it's the stupid college kid that leans over my dog and scream/barks at him, it's the guy who acts like he's just walking by me and then leans down quicker than I can catch him and starts batting my dog in the face with his hands. All things that have happened to me. 

I understand that I generally need to expect people to be stupid, but it seems sad to me that general treatment of animals in public has sunk to this low. That I need to *expect* that the next person to come up to my dog will probably try to scream, pull, pinch, slap him and I either need to be OK with that or pull some superhero grade body blocking to head off all those people.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> No, no and NO!
> 
> If more people would just mind their own business we could take our dogs to a lot more public places.
> 
> ...


Although I feel people should be able to express themselves with better language, I do agree with the overall point and what you wrote above. 

My daughter often mentions the kid touching example. Actually, when my twin girls were babies I used to have to take them to the grocery store with me and I'd put them both in the cart, they were really very cute. The problem was that many people wanted to touch them like petting a dog. And other shoppers would stare at them. So some of their first language that they said together on their own was, "No watch, No look, No touch!" I didn't teach them that. So anyway this is why I think my daughter is so sensitive to people wanting to get our dog's attention. People bark at us and last week two people tried to call our dog with their whistles.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Courtney said:


> shepherdmom- beautiful location!! I would find myself right at home
> 
> Thank you.  We like it. We moved out here so as not to be in suburbia. Most people out here like their privacy and most people respect that and boundries. Some people, like the dog walker, just don't give a crap. If she stayed on the road I wouldn't have any problem with her. She walks along my fence line and up the side of my fence where there is not a road. Its not like there isn't acres of empty desert for her to walk the dog on. Why is it necessary to get up close and personal with my private space?
> 
> I do not believe my dog is on display like an animal at a petting zoo just because we are in public.


Agreed. People need to respect boundaries. As our population continues to grow we are going to have to live closer and closer together. People that live in apartments have every right to walk their dogs without being 
mobbed by others.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> i always take the time to school folks about asking to pet someones dog. it is usually a young mother and kids. we should all remember, we are not just gsd owners, but ambassadors for the breed. what your dog does reflects on all gsd owners.


I take great pains to explain to people that Shadow is a rescue, that she has some serious issues and that she is an unfortunate result of _bad breeding_. I try to educate whenever I can about not only GSDs, but the heartbreak of puppy mills and indiscriminate breeding. Most real dog lovers are sympathetic and more then understanding of her issues.


As far as the other comment from Selzer?, I highly doubt that after 20 years of dealing with this cities thugs, vagrants and addicts, I come across as a push over. The people here are just rude. I do recall having 3 of us in full uniform, and Sabs in harness and vest, narrowly avoiding a bite when some guy thought it would be fun to bolt out of a rowdy crowd and hug the dog. It was a testament to her training and discretion that she recognized him as an idiot not a threat.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Shepherd Mom, does it always only snow in your front yard and not anywhere else? just kidding it looks beautiful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can see both sides of the argument. 

We can't control others. We can BLOCK them but we can't control them. And most people do want to pet the puppy or the dog. I've become an expert at enticing people to pet the puppy and blocking people from petting the dog or puppy before they ask.

I guess you can be stuck in one mode or the other but the reality is that a good number of us do a mixture of "please pet the dog" and "don't touch the dog", depending on the situation and I find more and more people that will ask to pet or I overhear them tell their kids to ask.

My only real pet peeves are people who are blind to the fact that i don't want my puppy to jump on them and let me sit him first. AND the general public who thinks FooFoo in her Pink Tutu needs to meet every other dog. NO! Get your dog away from mine. I don't know it. I don't know you. Go! NOW!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I can see both sides of the argument.
> 
> We can't control others. We can BLOCK them but we can't control them. And most people do want to pet the puppy or the dog. I've become an expert at enticing people to pet the puppy and blocking people from petting the dog or puppy before they ask.
> 
> ...


I agree. I am much more concerned with people who have a dog and are goo-goo over it, and let it come right up to every other dog because they think everybody and every dog will just love their Foo Foo. 

I guess, I am basing my response on my own journey. As I matured and became more confident, people started being a lot less forward, would ask politely to pet the dog, and the jerks basically stay away. I have had people bark at my dog, but never pinch their ears or pull their tails. And no adult stranger has ever tried to hug one of my dogs. 

Distractions are good. Training doesn't happen in a vacuum. A dog that has been trained without distractions is not trained.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DobbyDad said:


> Shepherd Mom, does it always only snow in your front yard and not anywhere else? just kidding it looks beautiful.


I wish. haha.... 

It snows in the back too. Just the pictures from the back are boring when it snows. LOL 



















Its much prettier with the trees in the front.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I guess you can be stuck in one mode or the other but the reality is that a good number of us do a mixture of "please pet the dog" and "don't touch the dog", depending on the situation


haha true that! For the most part I want to be left alone... but I'm trying to socialize a puppy right now so I'm having to find places to take him and I'm having to try to be social myself. Maybe I should put a sign on him. Please pet the puppy but don't talk to the human with him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I can see both sides of the argument.
> 
> We can't control others. We can BLOCK them but we can't control them. And most people do want to pet the puppy or the dog. I've become an expert at enticing people to pet the puppy and blocking people from petting the dog or puppy before they ask.
> 
> ...


I like when people pet my dogs, they are both very friendly and they love the attention. However, I do not like when they just assume that the dog is friendly and they reach out to touch them without asking permission. Some people are weirdos and they act strange towards my dogs and they make me feel uneasy. You never know what they are going to do like randomly hug my dog or stick their face in my dog's face trying to give him kisses, what the heck, back off! Luckily both of my dogs tolerate rude behavior but I do not.

I HATE when people let their dogs come up to mine!!!!!!!!! Ask first! Your dog may be friendly but mine might not be! I was recently purchasing dog food at a petco and this man let his Lab drag him over to me and rush at my dog. He was way over excited and came at us full force and knocked in to me which caused me to knee my own freaking dog. WHAT THE HECK?! All the man said was "oh what a big handsome dog, they are already friends." UGH. I hate it even more when people let their dogs approach other dogs at Vet clinics! I don't know what illness your dog has, keep it away from mine!


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

shepherd mom.. I would love to live somewhere as isolated as that! Only I might get even more antisocial than I already am .


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

shepherdmom, very nice property and scenery. looks pretty secluded, but you are bothered by the one dog walker. i am perplexed by you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I take great pains to explain to people that Shadow is a rescue, that she has some serious issues and that she is an unfortunate result of _bad breeding_. I try to educate whenever I can about not only GSDs, but the heartbreak of puppy mills and indiscriminate breeding. Most real dog lovers are sympathetic and more then understanding of her issues.
> 
> 
> As far as the other comment from Selzer?, I highly doubt that after 20 years of dealing with this cities thugs, vagrants and addicts, I come across as a push over. The people here are just rude. I do recall having 3 of us in full uniform, and Sabs in harness and vest, narrowly avoiding a bite when some guy thought it would be fun to bolt out of a rowdy crowd and hug the dog. It was a testament to her training and discretion that she recognized him as an idiot not a threat.


imho, you set the dog up to almost fail. you need to keep problem dogs away from areas like that. you already know some folks are idiots, and yet you take chances. as someone said, good luck explaining this to a judge.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Dogs haven't changed.....people have. It seems people are becoming less and less tolerant of their neighbors. Don't knock on my door, dont get in my way , don't pet my dog, don't walk past my house. What ever happened to friendliness......seems everyone just wants to be left alone.
I think it is different over here.......we seem to be a more sociable bunch.......


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> shepherdmom, very nice property and scenery. looks pretty secluded, but you are bothered by the one dog walker. i am perplexed by you.


If you had a pack of rescue dogs with all sorts of issues, you wouldn't be so calm about a person with no boundaries walking her dog off leash along your fence on private property. Especially when there is lots and lots of open space where she could walk that dog. 

If you had switched the times you let your dogs out re-arranged your schedule many times to avoid her and yet she makes a point of walking her dog when your out and calling out to your dogs talking to them like they are as friendly as her dog... It's just annoying.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> imho, you set the dog up to almost fail. you need to keep problem dogs away from areas like that. you already know some folks are idiots, and yet you take chances. as someone said, good luck explaining this to a judge.


So where exactly do you expect those of us with rescue dogs with issues to go? Its exactly because of attitudes like yours that we have moved as far out as we can and yet you still expect me to be social with the dog walker. :crazy:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> imho, you set the dog up to almost fail. you need to keep problem dogs away from areas like that. you already know some folks are idiots, and yet you take chances. as someone said, good luck explaining this to a judge.


And there's the attitude. I have a messed up dog, I should never let her out in public. My dog is not perfect, I have no business taking her out in public. How dare I inflict a less then perfect GSD on the world. Did you get to the part where she couldn't possibly be a purebred?

Next you will tell me all about your perfect dog and your perfect self. Wait you've already done that. 

Let me tell you that I have put more work, more thought and more effort into training my 'problem' then you ever would have. I have had to deal with situations and issues that would have sent you running. I'm GLAD that Shadow is what she is. She has taught me more then I will ever teach her. 
And apparently you need to focus more on what you read. Then you would have caught the part about muzzled and in control. 

One of my neighbors has a 4 year old child with some behavioral challenges, sometimes he randomly strikes out or screams. Perhaps he should not be out in public either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If someone is irritating your dogs on your fence line, tell her to leave your dogs alone or you will call the law on her. Sometimes being rude or being nice or whatever isn't the best approach. Sometimes it is best to tell people flat out to leave your dogs be. 

I got it. Fit each of your dogs with a huge e-collar and when she is out there assaulting your fence, get out the control and tell her, "Because you refuse to let my dogs be, now I have to punish them." 

Who knows, it might work. 

Another thought is to get a REAL electric cattle fence and set it up ON YOUR PROPERTY, on the outside of your fence. She or her dog hits that, and she will walk on the other side of the road. 

Taking a dog with issues into a busy metropolitan area, and expecting everyone to ignore the dog, not make eye contact, not try to pet the dog, no staring, no addressing the dog -- that is setting a dog up for failure. If you have a muzzle on the dog, than perhaps you can try flooding the dog with all the people and dogs, to try to shock it out of its fear -- I think this is a sucky way to deal with the problem, but I bet people try it. But you have to keep people safe. 

If your dog needs a bubble around it, then you need to create and maintain that bubble. You cannot expect everyone in the world to abide by the bubble that your dog needs -- the bubble is invisible after all, without defining it for them, and being willing to defend it however you need to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> And there's the attitude. I have a messed up dog, I should never let her out in public. My dog is not perfect, I have no business taking her out in public. How dare I inflict a less then perfect GSD on the world. Did you get to the part where she couldn't possibly be a purebred?
> 
> Next you will tell me all about your perfect dog and your perfect self. Wait you've already done that.
> 
> ...


I think that Hunter may have thought that the incident where the person ran out of the crowd and hugged your dog, almost getting bitten, was the dog that has the issues, etc. Taking a dog with issues out to a crowd isn't the best thing for people or the dog, especially if the problem dog is not muzzled and able to be bitten. I caught that this was Sabis, and Shadow was the one that seemed to have issues, but I had to look back and check that because I thought the same thing -- why would you put the dog with issues in that position. Turns out you didn't. 

I don't think any of us said anything of the sort of things you are saying though. What does the fact that she is mixed have to do with the price of rice in China? Really. Suggesting that you shouldn't take a dog with serious issues into a crowd of people is not the same as saying it should not go out in public at all.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> If someone is irritating your dogs on your fence line, tell her to leave your dogs alone or you will call the law on her. Sometimes being rude or being nice or whatever isn't the best approach. Sometimes it is best to tell people flat out to leave your dogs be.
> 
> I got it. Fit each of your dogs with a huge e-collar and when she is out there assaulting your fence, get out the control and tell her, "Because you refuse to let my dogs be, now I have to punish them."
> 
> ...


She is not walking down the flipping road she is walking across the privately owned field down my fence. The only law out here is the sheriff who encourages people to shoot off leash dogs. They don't give a darn. I like her dog I don't want to shoot it. I don't have the money to put in a cattle fence or buy e collars for everyone. I have tried being polite, my husband has tried being rude, she ignores. So now I just hide and take my dogs out after dark in the middle of the night or when I think she is not around. And how is that fair ? I can't even run my dogs on my own private property when I want to because of this witch.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

She knows it really pushes your buttons.......she gets a kick out of it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> She is not walking down the flipping road she is walking across the privately owned field down my fence. The only law out here is the sheriff who encourages people to shoot off leash dogs. They don't give a darn. I like her dog I don't want to shoot it. I don't have the money to put in a cattle fence or buy e collars for everyone. I have tried being polite, my husband has tried being rude, she ignores. So now I just hide and take my dogs out after dark in the middle of the night or when I think she is not around. And how is that fair ? I can't even run my dogs on my own private property when I want to because of this witch.


For every suggestion I might provide, you will find an excuse, but how about making your fence line unwelcoming, Dump your dog poop over the fence line every day. Big piles of stinking poop on her shoe might change her mind about walking there. 

What about letting vegetation or rocks grow up outside the fence, so that it is unpleasant to walk there. 

How about buying a truck load of horse manure and spreading it right there. Cattle fence is really actually really cheap. I don't know how you can go cheaper, really. All you need is some wire some posts, and an element. 

I think you have a situation of people bringing their dog around your dog in your yard, it really isn't what the u-tube was about, that is about people out in public with dogs, and other people are expected to be 100% perfect in knowing who to ask, who not to ask, how far away they should be, where they should look or not look, etc. 

I live in the boonies too, and we have a sheriff, and I have called about the dog next door, and I got the "shoot it." I do not think your sheriff would tell you to shoot a dog that is being walked by someone though. But, unless you have called, how can you know, and I was not suggesting you call, I was suggesting that you tell her you will. But if she is not actually on your property, there may truly be nothing much you can do. 

Of course, if you throw your poop over the fence while she is in the way, "oh sorry, didn't realize you were there" maybe she would get the message?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> For every suggestion I might provide, you will find an excuse, but how about making your fence line unwelcoming, Dump your dog poop over the fence line every day. Big piles of stinking poop on her shoe might change her mind about walking there.
> 
> What about letting vegetation or rocks grow up outside the fence, so that it is unpleasant to walk there.


haha Selzer you've seen the pictures... She is walking her dog through desert with goats heads and other prickley burrs... I doubt dog poo will stop her but it doesn't really matter. I'm just pointing out how some people are rude and clueless no matter what. I actually banned my black dogs to the pen only until we can re-enforce the fence this summer. They don't get full access anymore. The shepherds still have access because they don't try to run the fence and bark at her. BTW I really love the manure idea or put down some of that stinky fly stuff and see if her dog rolls in that. hehehe Your giving me bad thoughts. 

I absolutely loved the video because that dog trainer is exactly right IMO, Leave other peoples dogs alone! 

@sparra... if your comment is directed toward me, why would she want to push my buttons? I stay in my own bubble and leave other people alone why would she want to do something like that?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> If you had a pack of rescue dogs with all sorts of issues, you wouldn't be so calm about a person with no boundaries walking her dog off leash along your fence on private property. Especially when there is lots and lots of open space where she could walk that dog.
> 
> If you had switched the times you let your dogs out re-arranged your schedule many times to avoid her and yet she makes a point of walking her dog when your out and calling out to your dogs talking to them like they are as friendly as her dog... It's just annoying.


walking the perimeter of your property is respecting your boundaries. if i understood your post correctly she is not on your property. would be the same as me being annoyed because people walk or drive on the road by my property.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Some people are sick! 
Sorry shepherd mom.
Maybe act like it doesn't bother you and she will go away. Hope so for your sake .Bill 
P.s. how is the pups on. Coming?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Obedience coming? This phone writes what it wants. Lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> And there's the attitude. I have a messed up dog, I should never let her out in public. My dog is not perfect, I have no business taking her out in public. How dare I inflict a less then perfect GSD on the world. Did you get to the part where she couldn't possibly be a purebred?
> 
> Next you will tell me all about your perfect dog and your perfect self. Wait you've already done that.
> 
> ...


another mistake, a dog is not a child, apples and oranges. i commend you for rescuing a challenging dog, but you are not going to change human behavior. if that means getting in your car and driving to a place better suited to your training then that is what you need to do.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> @sparra... if your comment is directed toward me, why would she want to push my buttons? I stay in my own bubble and leave other people alone why would she want to do something like that?


Who knows........but if what you say is true then it sounds like she is enjoying the fact that it pings you off


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> walking the perimeter of your property is respecting your boundaries. if i understood your post correctly she is not on your property. would be the same as me being annoyed because people walk or drive on the road by my property.


Walking down the road with her leashed dog would be respecting my boundaries and I wouldn't have a problem with it. Cutting across private property unleashed and being up close and personal with my fence is not. I'm temped to find the property owner and request permission to put no trespassing signs up... But I think I like selzers manure idea. Hehe hope her dog rolls in it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

bill said:


> Obedience coming? This phone writes what it wants. Lol
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Dude is doing great thanks. We are going out again to the Yerington trainer on Wednesday.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> haha Selzer you've seen the pictures... She is walking her dog through desert with goats heads and other prickley burrs... I doubt dog poo will stop her but it doesn't really matter. I'm just pointing out how some people are rude and clueless no matter what. I actually banned my black dogs to the pen only until we can re-enforce the fence this summer. They don't get full access anymore. The shepherds still have access because they don't try to run the fence and bark at her. BTW I really love the manure idea or put down some of that stinky fly stuff and see if her dog rolls in that. hehehe Your giving me bad thoughts.
> 
> I absolutely loved the video because that dog trainer is exactly right IMO, Leave other peoples dogs alone!
> 
> @sparra... if your comment is directed toward me, why would she want to push my buttons? I stay in my own bubble and leave other people alone why would she want to do something like that?


People should not deliberately bother your dog. People should not bother a dog in a car or in a yard or sitting outside a store -- though that in the video I thought was terribly irresponsible, and would not suggest people do that. People should not pull tails or pinch ears on dogs or pull leashes out of the owners hands or shove people out of the way to hug their dogs, or ignore an owner's reasonable request.

When people see a dog that looks well-behaved and is interesting, they SHOULD ask the owner about the dog, and if they can pet the dog if they want. They SHOULD NOT go out and buy one like it because they like its looks and how well-trained it is. That is insanity. 

Because the world has people in it that are not perfect, and also has children that do not always think before they act, it is up to pet owners to protect their dogs. We can protect our dogs by socializing them well to whatever people might do; and by training them, developing a bond of trust so that the dog is unlikely to react, if we are not exuding terribly bad emotions and body language. If we have a dog that still requires a bubble, then it is up to those of us who know the dog and its bubble-requirements to protect the dog by making sure it has its bubble. 

The video sucked because it suggests that the non-dog-owners should know about your dog's bubble-requirements. That it is their fault if a dog reacts poorly. That everyone should be expected to get a dog of their own, or live a dog-free existence, and that people should leave their dog tethered while the go into a store. 

The difference between your automobile, wallet, or purse and your GSD, is simple. Your automobile, wallet, or purse will not get anxious and bite someone. Dogs need to be protected by their owners. The rest of the world needs to listen to the dog owners if the dog owner says, "not today."


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> People should not deliberately bother your dog. People should not bother a dog in a car or in a yard or sitting outside a store -- though that in the video I thought was terribly irresponsible, and would not suggest people do that. People should not pull tails or pinch ears on dogs or pull leashes out of the owners hands or shove people out of the way to hug their dogs, or ignore an owner's reasonable request.
> 
> When people see a dog that looks well-behaved and is interesting, they SHOULD ask the owner about the dog, and if they can pet the dog if they want. They SHOULD NOT go out and buy one like it because they like its looks and how well-trained it is. That is insanity.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: And on that note I'm outta here


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> The video sucked because it suggests that the non-dog-owners should know about your dog's bubble-requirements.


We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I shared the video on fb and has a bunch of likes already... so some people appreciate it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Here is my take on it. I agree with the video. I think it's crass, but I agree with the sentiment. 

People should not just walk up and pet your dog. They should ask first or leave you alone. 

I have never, until now, had a dog that I needed to get nasty with people about. Well maybe my girl, she is snotty with some dogs(but I can control her 100%, just don't let her interact). But my young boy is going through a suspicious period. Especially with kids running up on him. I hate it, but we are working on it. I get kids all the time chasing us down on their bikes, running out if their house to pet him. Luckily they have all asked. And for the first time I have had to say " not now, we are training" and I move on. 

But I plan on taking him lots of busy places this summer. And I know that I very well may need to leave before I want to, if he acts up. I have the right to go places with him, I don't have the right to put people in danger. And while in my heart I don't think he would act on anything, I am not willing to take the chance.

Here's the thing. I am the only thing I can control. I can't control others, I can't control their kids. I can just control me and my dog. So I have to take my lumps and leave if I feel a situation is unsafe for my dog or other participants. I don't have the right to force my "unsafe" dog on the public. I am doing everything I can to train through the phase. I may not be successful in getting my boy to be comfortable with strange kids hugging him. I WILL be successful at getting him to ignore them and be comfortable around well behaved kids. But not all kids are. So if I have doubt, we leave. The end. 

Dogs are a priveledge, not a right. Parents have a right to expect that at a dog and kid friendly event, no one is going to bring a child eating dog. It's common sense. Should they watch their children closely, yes, but again, I can't control them. So it my job as a responsible dog owner to put my dog in a situation that could be bad for anyone. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> People should not deliberately bother your dog. People should not bother a dog in a car or in a yard or sitting outside a store -- though that in the video I thought was terribly irresponsible, and would not suggest people do that. People should not pull tails or pinch ears on dogs or pull leashes out of the owners hands or shove people out of the way to hug their dogs, or ignore an owner's reasonable request."


This is what I have been saying, and it's all I ask

I like the video, I understand the sentiment. I agree with Shepherdmom. I resent people telling me that because my controlled dog isn't perfect she has no rights. A dog behind a fence should not be bothered, neither should a leashed and muzzled dog that is walking with it's person. I have reasonable expectations. My _child_ knows better then to bother a strange dog, it is not unreasonable to expect an adult to possess the same knowledge and self control.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Phew, I read through all of those posts! Hurray! 

I liked the video. I found the language to be a bit crude, but I also found it entertaining.

He had a good point but I think that the biggest problem is is that people are just simply not educated on how to behave around an animal. It's great that a dog accepts pats from people of all sizes, genders, ages and ethnics, but I also find it understandable if a dog does lash out because someone has treated it unfairly by throwing objects at it or even poking or pulling sensitive body parts. I mean, if I had a massive bruise or cut or scar on my arm and someone decided to squeeze it hard I would probably react accordingly because it might be extremely painful. With a dog, you more often than not cannot see an injury because fur could be covering it!

I remember when I was a little kid and all I wanted to do was run around cuddling strangers' dogs, but my parents firmly stamped in my mind that I should NEVER go near or touch a stranger's dog. Why? Because we simply did not know the dog and thus we do not know how they react. That's why when I meet a new dog I act totally aloof until I get a feel for it and then either discover that this dog would or would not mind a pat. People often assume that I dislike or are afraid of dogs because I do not automatically go goo ga. This is incorrect. I like dogs and maybe, I don't know, but it could be because I have tamed feral cats, I have Asperger's Syndrome, I am the type of person to wait and observe, I understand that people and animals do NEED personal space. People need to be educated and understanding and should stop assuming so much. They should not assume that a dog is there to be petted and cuddled by the public. They should not assume that because a person doesn't gossip and become the life of the party that they are antisocial. They should not assume that because a dog is a particular breed such as pit-bull that they are evil and aggressive. They should simply not assume! 

Don't get me wrong, I believe that an owner must try as hard as they can to teach their dogs to be social and tolerant of other people and animals. It also depends on the situation and job. Why, my dog was once a big pansy when he was a pup. He was scared of a lot of things, for instance we had an orphan lamb and since my dog was big and white, it probably thought that he was a mummy sheep and it chased my dog around the yard until he got cornered and he wet himself! He was scared of my mother's horses! But I carefully exposed him to his fears until he eventually got over most of them. He then ignored the horses and left them to their own business. He began to learn that lambs aren't evil and that if he was vigilant, he could get a treat! (It was lamb poo, I know, a little gross!)

My point is, people need to learn my about animals and how to behave around them. Animals are not dolls or toys. Also, people need to try and socialise their dogs as best as they can! 

Sorry for the big blob of text, I hope it makes sense!


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

The subject title are the exact words my instructor used during our K9 briefing in training


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

gsdsar said:


> People should not just walk up and pet your dog. They should ask first or leave you alone.
> 
> I have never, until now, had a dog that I needed to get nasty with people about. Especially with kids running up on him. I hate it, but we are working on it. I get kids all the time chasing us down on their bikes, running out if their house to pet him. Luckily they have all asked. And for the first time I have had to say " not now, we are training" and I move on.
> 
> ...


 
I agree 100%. Mayhem is the dog I have to watch. Never had one I had to worry about. No she is not a man eater or even aggressive, she just does not like small kids running up on her. It unnerves her. She is actually fine if the kid listens for 30 seconds when I tell them to let her approach them and back off when she wants to. As long as she can control the interaction she is great. I have also taught her to target shoes. If she nose touches a shoe she gets treats and her mouth is busy away from kids hands. I have never felt I needed to muzzle her but it is always in the back of my mind for future safety. I also feel she needs to get out around kids and become accustomed to seeing them. Not necessarily interact with them, forcing interaction is not that way to solve this and in fact would most likely make it worse.

Kids should ask first, parents need to teach them that. But it seems a lost art. So if I tell folks to leave my dog alone I mean it. I also have exercised my option to turn around and walk away.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think way too much emphasis is being placed on dogs that bite scenarios in some of the comments.

There's a lot of grey because the trainer in the video mentions more then once about dogs being good, leave the dog alone, it's being good he said. He does mention biting once, only.

There's plenty of space inbetween for his points to be very valid.

The other side of the coin is educating the general public who do unintentionally interfere with someone with a NON aggressive dog trying to proof against distractions. A lot of people do distract, interfere with dogs that aren't theirs. A lot of them, I suspect, don't realize what they are doing is not only rude but Unfair to the dog.

On the positive side I'm noticing more and more people at the park walking dogs on nice loose leash heel. I'm thinking that slowly but surely more people are becoming aware of good training techniques and are starting to push back on those who don't know or are just being rude.

Education is a good thing, even if the message is couched in 'salty' language it doesn't take away from the truth. The truth is if you're proofing a sit in public (non aggressive dog) and someone comes up to the dog and it jumps up and they pet it, they have rewarded a behavior of breaking the sit (for example)

There has to balance Sue, common sense on BOTH sides of this equation.

Sometimes you've gotta give people a verbal bonk on the head to get them to realize.

Hence this video does not suck, at all.





selzer said:


> <snipped>
> The video sucked because it suggests that the non-dog-owners should know about your dog's bubble-requirements. That it is their fault if a dog reacts poorly. <snipped>."


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's funny!

...and I was just thinking, when hanging out with the IPO folks, they don't go around mushing, ooohhhhing and ahhhhing over each other's dogs.

They will chat about the dogs but they don't 'love on' everybody else's dog.

The positive side of this I learned is you can have a talk with someone without having a dog demanding attention.....it's a good thing! 




TommyB681 said:


> The subject title are the exact words my instructor used during our K9 briefing in training


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm jealous! I grew up way out in the country and I LOVED it and miss it so much.

I actually think country folk (except for a few oddballs) tend to very friendly.

My dad used to haul the people stuck in the mud out with his tractor during the spring thaw, never asked to be paid and was always friendly to those folks who should have known better then to try to go down the deeply rutted mass of mud we called our street. Our road looked similar to yours, long dirt road with no other houses around.

Your place is beautiful. 

It's a shame the dog walker won't respect your requests to stay away from the fence. We'd also have that problem with horses sometimes. People would want to come up and 'pet the pretty horsies', horses can and do bite and kick. 



shepherdmom said:


> So where exactly do you expect those of us with rescue dogs with issues to go? Its exactly because of attitudes like yours that we have moved as far out as we can and yet you still expect me to be social with the dog walker. :crazy:


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's a shame the dog walker won't respect your requests to stay away from the fence. We'd also have that problem with horses sometimes. People would want to come up and 'pet the pretty horsies', horses can and do bite and kick.


Yes, horse bites really do hurt! Thankfully I have never been kicked before! Again, it's all about maintaining a safe distance until you have judged the situation.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Education is a good thing, even if the message is couched in 'salty' language it doesn't take away from the truth. The truth is if you're proofing a sit in public (non aggressive dog) and someone comes up to the dog and it jumps up and they pet it, they have rewarded a behavior of breaking the sit (for example)


I can relate to this situation, even when we are at home. It can be frustrating when you try to train your dog to be calm around visitors and not to jump up on them. I tell the visitors to ignore my dog until he is calm but they stare at him and encourage him to jump so they can give him pats and love him! :crazy:


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## Rottendog (Mar 6, 2014)

Yoshi said:


> Yes, horse bites really do hurt! Thankfully I have never been kicked before! Again, it's all about maintaining a safe distance until you have judged the situation.



Yes they do, Some of the worst pain I've ever felt was taking a hard kick directly in the hip bone from one of my horses that thought I was a fly when I walked up and rubbed his hip. 

On the video, got to keep a good sense of humor about it and I basically agree with the guy. I've had more than one situation when I had my Rottie with idiots. I had one lady who was so frightened of him because he was big and a Rottweiler that she jerked her toddler away so hard she almost hurt her own child and turned on his protection drive so much you could see fire in his eyes. He wanted so bad to protect the child. But the well trained boy he was kept him sitting firmly by my knee thank God. That episode happened in my Vet's office while we were waiting. The child had come over to pet Baron and he loved it. The mother on the other hand was a complete idiot. I also had a lady with a Dachshund let her dog go on an extendo leash and get in my boys face. She let the little sausage bite him on the face. I had seen them coming and had stepped off the sidewalk and away, and put him in a sit stay. Good boy he was didn't even growl at the sausage. As I said, I see the man's point in the video. People are idiots around other people's dogs. I bet if they broke it down, a large number of dog bites are caused by stupid actions. And of course the dog is the one punished. I know you can't fix idiots or fix parents not teaching children, but it sure gets frustrating.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

LMFAO -- oh that's brilliant!!!!! I love this!! How many times have I wanted to say this to people who do it to me and Roxy


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I was walking the trail one day and Roxy was being overly obedient..to the point I was even shocked...some old guy with a huge walking stick said "Oh what a well trained dog" and started walking towards her..welp that's all it took to break her concentration and then she spotted his HUGE walking stick and started barking at him..then his wife started getting all nervous looking..and yeah it took about 5 min to get her back to a good walk


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I see both sides of this discussion. I had adopted a abused Boxer/English mastiff cross who was extremely reactive to everyone dogs, people and especially kids. The kids in her first home must have really messed her up. When I rescued her off of craigslist she had parasites, cigarette burns and had spent her short 9 months tied up.
I would walk Apple to work on her reactivity like her trainer suggested, when a passer by would approach, I would always move away from people and under her reactive threshold, but there were always the jerks that would try and approach her with their yippy dogs and undo my progress with her. Also the kids in my neighborhood would never respect her boundaries even though I told them multiple times she does not like people. Kids would see my children playing with Apple and assume it was safe. Ultimately I had to remove Apple from my household for her quality of life as kids were a hot spot for her and I did not want her to BITE a child. People need to learn to respect peoples wishes as we are the owners and we know what is best for our pets. 
With both my German Shepherds that I have had since they were pups and I socialized and obedience trained since day 1, I can trust and allow all kids and people to approach as they adore the attention but it is hard when you have a dog you love and they love you and people can't respect boundaries.
I miss Apple everyday but with the help of her trainer she is an a much better situation away from children and is thriving!


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## Wodinaz (Dec 19, 2013)

Wanna pet someone's dog? Go to a dog park.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup: LOL!



Wodinaz said:


> Wanna pet someone's dog? Go to a dog park.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm jealous! I grew up way out in the country and I LOVED it and miss it so much.
> 
> I actually think country folk (except for a few oddballs) tend to very friendly.


LOL country folk may tend to be friendly.  People out here are more considered to be desert rats. We are not as friendly. Yeah if a neighbor needs help sure we will help them... However, we don't socialize much. You won't see us throwing block parties or barn dances or whatever. I guess the big entertainment for some is the once a month drag races in the summer with the demolition derby's. I know a few people who participate in that.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Interesting! Yeah my experiences are in Michigan farm country. We tended to have more problems with city folk who moved out to escape city problems. Funny how their problems seemed to follow them around. Still we did socialize with friends in the nearby town a lot and lots of informal visiting over a cuppa coffee. Some nice bar-b-q's too. 

No matter if it's desert or the corn fields, woods and cow pastures I grew up around, I miss the heck out of it. Now wonder if I'll ever get back to that life. Used to be you could buy a plot of land and put a nice simple little house on it., not so much any longer. I would have like to go off grid someday.





shepherdmom said:


> LOL country folk may tend to be friendly.  People out here are more considered to be desert rats. We are not as friendly. Yeah if a neighbor needs help sure we will help them... However, we don't socialize much. You won't see us throwing block parties or barn dances or whatever. I guess the big entertainment for some is the once a month drag races in the summer with the demolition derby's. I know a few people who participate in that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> LOL country folk may tend to be friendly.  People out here are more considered to be desert rats. We are not as friendly. Yeah if a neighbor needs help sure we will help them... However, we don't socialize much. You won't see us throwing block parties or barn dances or whatever. I guess the big entertainment for some is the once a month drag races in the summer with the demolition derby's. I know a few people who participate in that.


What's a block party??


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

thats where us friendly folks close off the road, go out have a few drinks and bbq. and just "socializes with all". you wouldn't enjoy it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think way too much emphasis is being placed on dogs that bite scenarios in some of the comments.
> 
> There's a lot of grey because the trainer in the video mentions more then once about dogs being good, leave the dog alone, it's being good he said. He does mention biting once, only.
> 
> ...


There isn't balance though. If the dog bites, the owner of the dog get sued, the owner of the dog's homeowner's insurance (probably) takes a hit. Then they drop the owner of the dog. The owner of the dog has to try to get homeowner's insurance with a dog with a bite history. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. If they can't the dog gets put down. If they have other GSDs, and they cannot find insurance because of their breed, those dogs are lost to them as well. 

There is no balance here. Dog bites are no fun, especially if someone went up to some strange dog and hugged it. But they can still sue, your homeowner's insurance is NOT going to fight it, and YOU are in a world of hurt. 

I am not suggesting socializing your dog to the point of being hugged by complete strangers without reacting before taking them down the street. But dog owners have to protect their dogs by maintaining the bubble their dog needs. Or they are going to find out about how unbalanced the world actually is.

This video is embraced by people with dogs that require a bubble. Those of us who have dogs that are basically being what his dog is being in the video, a good, well-trained dog, well, yes, we want people to ask and not just come up to our dogs and pet them. We've had this conversation over and again. Some yayhoo just pets your dog, so you reach over and pet his kid's head. People shouldn't do that. Well, I think more people should pet kids' heads. I think too many kids are growing up without positive touch, and I don't know if that is a good thing, but perhaps not within the scope of this conversation.

For most of us, whose dogs are being good, and people mess with them, we can step in and say, "Leave the dog alone." if we feel they are out of line. People should ask. People should do a lot of things that they fail miserably at. In the end, dogs really don't have rights, and dog owners, while they have rights, I think they also have to be prepared for the worst if the worst happens. 

So having some foul mouthed jerk sound off about how people should or should not act may make you smile, and say "Right On!" but, for every one of us that understands that whatever he says, people are still going to need to be responsible for their own dog's actions, there is going to be someone out there that is going to be blaming the ignorant dog-petter/hugger/instigator; and formidable dogs, will cause more problems, and the owners of formidable dogs will see more laws enacted against them. 

We, what? Generation X'rs? the porchless people? the don't knock on my front door people? don't look at my dog people? We relate to this guy because he is basically saying, "it isn't your dog, don't touch!" Just like he would say the same thing about his motorcycle, his baby, his front yard, his tree-lawn, his door bell, and so forth. And the "get your own dog" crap, well that is the worst thing I have seen on a u-tube in a long time. People shouldn't go and get a dog because they might want to pet one, once a week or so. Especially if they see a nice, well-behaved dog, and expect that is what theirs will be like, without trying. 

I think he is a jerk. And sure there are people all over that will like the u-tube. People like to see people hacked off about stuff. Maybe it is because they cannot themselves sound off like that, and live vicariously off of people that do.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> thats where us friendly folks close off the road, go out have a few drinks and bbq. and just "socializes with all". you wouldn't enjoy it.


Not that our town is overly crime ridden or anything, but the closest thing to a block party here was during the Stanley cup 2011. Some idiots robbed a mom & pop store then held up in a house a block over. It brought every body out to spectate and we got to meet neighbors we didn't know existed.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think he is a jerk. And sure there are people all over that will like the u-tube. People like to see people hacked off about stuff. Maybe it is because they cannot themselves sound off like that, and live vicariously off of people that do.


Or Selzer there are those of us who speak plain and abhor political correctness.
We admire others who say what they think. I absolutely applaud him for his directness. I can't begin to tell you how many darn committees and boards I have been sucked into because I am not afraid to say what I think and push for what I believe is right. Being quite never gets you anywhere.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is one of those rare occasions where you and I are really far apart on our opinions.

You're extrapolating an awful lot of very serious issues into a 'the dog is being good leave it alone people' type of statement here Sue. 

That doesn't leave any common ground for us to discuss this so on this particular topic I'm going to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree.





selzer said:


> There isn't balance though. If the dog bites, the owner of the dog get sued, the owner of the dog's homeowner's insurance (probably) takes a hit. Then they drop the owner of the dog. The owner of the dog has to try to get homeowner's insurance with a dog with a bite history. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. If they can't the dog gets put down. If they have other GSDs, and they cannot find insurance because of their breed, those dogs are lost to them as well.
> 
> There is no balance here. Dog bites are no fun, especially if someone went up to some strange dog and hugged it. But they can still sue, your homeowner's insurance is NOT going to fight it, and YOU are in a world of hurt.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup.

I've learned over my few turns around the sun here that sometimes you gotta kick up a fuss to wake people up. IMO what the trainer in the video is addressing is a problem that has become ingrained and habitual amongst those who are oblivious. So sometimes a verbal poke like this is what's needed to wake up people up to a new way of thinking about dogs and training.

I think it's a good thing and I'm glad the video is getting shared! It's got almost 30,000 views, *so keep sharing it*..  




shepherdmom said:


> Or Selzer there are those of us who speak plain and abhor political correctness.
> We admire others who say what they think. I absolutely applaud him for his directness. I can't begin to tell you how many darn committees and boards I have been sucked into because I am not afraid to say what I think and push for what I believe is right. Being quite never gets you anywhere.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I am the first to agree that political correctness has got way out of hand but swearing to the point that it doesnt even make sense just turns me off straight away. 
I am direct......say what I think and am anything but quiet but never have needed to use language like that to get a point accross........it just felt false to me.....a big show for YouTube.
He is preaching to the converted.......the people who need to hear it would just think he was crass and turn it off


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

From the activity I'm seeing online with this video, I have to disagree with you Sparra, at least on the whole. Meaning yeah, some people won't like it but there's a LOT of people who feel like someone is finally speakin' truth to the power!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good Morning btw!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> From the activity I'm seeing online with this video, I have to disagree with you Sparra, at least on the whole. Meaning yeah, some people won't like it but there's a LOT of people who feel like someone is finally speakin' truth to the power!


Wouldnt be the first time we have disagreed but that's ok 
Beautiful morning here .......gorgeous Autumn weather.......I always feel I am late to these discussions as it is all happening while I am sleeping


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I also had no problem with the guy myself. I see his point, never had those problems with people myself and would never dream of calling someone's dog to me???

There are a lot of us that have had to deal with "bubble dogs" and have done so without putting the public at risk. Morons would make that job a bit harder but just another challenge to be overcome.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The people who like it are the people who have dogs, mostly those with dogs that need their protective bubble, the people who are not walking up to strange dogs and petting them without permission. 

I agree with Sparra, it is some one that is using his freedom to use foul language to show what a tough guy he is. Big whup! I guess, whatever flips your flapjacks. But the message is being read by all the wrong people. 

Furthermore, if you are out there, and you decide to go off on someone who commits a foul (in your opinion) when it comes to your dog, chances are it will be your reaction that will effect the dog much more than the action of the person, and, the evil dog-masher will walk away with the impression that our breed are nasty dogs, and their owners match them. 

The U-tube is just something that other dog owners will say, "Yay, You Go, Boy!" It does NOTHING to educate the masses or solve any of the problems. If anything it does the opposite. You want to touch my well-behaved dog, go get your own dog! And then, maybe when you find out that it takes work to get a dog from A to B, then you will bring your dog to me, and I can swear and belittle you for thinking you should own a dog. The guy's a jerk.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm for anything that keeps one, just one, person from talking/calling/talking to in puppy voice, to my service dog, it has a sign on it that reads do not disturb, if it changes just one random person not to bother a dog, I'm for it.


Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

^ see! above...

Do service dogs need a bubble? We've had two people chime in how this is a problem with their working service dogs. I've heard many people with service dogs talk about this problem and it's not because of this 'bubble'. It's not about any one type of dog, or dog with a problem, or a dog that needs people to stay 50' away, it's just about pushing back on people who go to lengths to actually interfere with a dog that is being good, that is working as a SD, or just being proofed for simple OB in public.

I've had people really try hard to distract my dogs from a distance. It does not happen a lot where I live but I've seen it enough to empathize with this problem.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's right, it's fall time down under. 

Ahhhh, but this is simply a matter of numbers right? You certainly are entitled to have your opinion regarding his language and such but if the video is getting shared with a lot of up votes and likes on FB and such, then it's the numbers proving my point that there are a lot of folks who agree and support the underlying message. 




sparra said:


> Wouldnt be the first time we have disagreed but that's ok
> Beautiful morning here .......gorgeous Autumn weather.......I always feel I am late to these discussions as it is all happening while I am sleeping


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ^ see! above...
> 
> Do service dogs need a bubble? We've had two people chime in how this is a problem with their working service dogs. I've heard many people with service dogs talk about this problem and it's not because of this 'bubble'. It's not about any one type of dog, or dog with a problem, or a dog that needs people to stay 50' away, it's just about pushing back on people who go to lengths to actually interfere with a dog that is being good, that is working as a SD, or just being proofed for simple OB in public.
> 
> I've had people really try hard to distract my dogs from a distance. It does not happen a lot where I live but I've seen it enough to empathize with this problem.


What is wrong with the educational system where it teaches everything but what it ought to teach. Should a child make it through high school, elementary school, and not be TAUGHT not to bother a service dog that is doing its job, or a police dog?

That video is not going to stop people from messing with a service dog. People from breed clubs OUGHT to do demonstrations in schools and TEACH children not to bother dogs that are out working, in whatever venue. They should TEACH children what to do if they see a stray dog, and they should TEACH children to ask politely if they can pet someone's dog, and to expect some people to say no, and even why some people might say no. 

Wouldn't that go farther that spreading your anger and frustration to a bunch of dog people?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's right, it's fall time down under.
> 
> Ahhhh, but this is simply a matter of numbers right? You certainly are entitled to have your opinion regarding his language and such but if the video is getting shared with a lot of up votes and likes on FB and such, then it's the numbers proving my point that there are a lot of folks who agree and support the underlying message.


But they aren't the ones annoying service dogs.......like I said......preaching to the converted won't change a thing.....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Eh Sue - Like I said, I don't agree with you on this. 

I don't agree that it's only about dogs with severe Aggression issues.

I don't agree that it's only about this 'bubble' deal.

I do think this video may wake some people up about not interfering with dogs that are being good. 

Then those people will spread the idea their way (probably sans some of the 'colorful' language). 

It's already happening, some of the posters here didn't realize this was a problem for service dog owners. 

It's opened the door to discussion, all good things IMO


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think it's fair to say, given the wide reach of social media and inter webs, that it is not all going to be preaching to the converted. 



sparra said:


> But they aren't the ones annoying service dogs.......like I said......preaching to the converted won't change a thing.....


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Let me just say the swearing doesn't turn me off. I don't necessarily think he is a macho jerk. Someone who swears like that may not have had the opportunities and education that I have been fortunate enough to have. Now when people like Paris Hilton swear I cringe. She has had plenty of opportunities and education and when she does it, it is just crass... But the majority of people who swear were raised in an environment where swearing is not only ok but is encouraged and rewarded. My dad was from NJ he never graduated high school and then was a soldier in WWII. He didn't swear to be a "macho jerk". Many of our service members protecting our country swear. That is the lifestyle they live while in the service. It's part of the culture of the service and it is part of the culture of many areas of the U.S. 

Do you get offended when someone says bloody? I think its funny but in England I guess that is a horrible swear word to some. It all depends on where and how you were raised. 

I'm sorry some are turned off by his language because I think his message is a good one. If he had said it more politely or PC, I don't think anyone would be arguing with the content of his message.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ^ see! above...
> 
> Do service dogs need a bubble? We've had two people chime in how this is a problem with their working service dogs. I've heard many people with service dogs talk about this problem and it's not because of this 'bubble'. It's not about any one type of dog, or dog with a problem, or a dog that needs people to stay 50' away, it's just about pushing back on people who go to lengths to actually interfere with a dog that is being good, that is working as a SD, or just being proofed for simple OB in public.
> 
> I've had people really try hard to distract my dogs from a distance. It does not happen a lot where I live but I've seen it enough to empathize with this problem.



Basically she's fine with all of it and will ignore children on all fours in front of her barking at her, (at 7 months old mind you) yet it's the fact that 20 out of the 100 people at target don't see a problem with stop, staring her in the face, and using the highest pitch voice imaginable to say "hey puppy!"

You see it acting correctly, leave it alone, it's a wheelchair when it has the vest on, it's not my dog when it is working, it's a tool to get through day to day activities, I don't stop everyone who is in a wheelchair and say "oh wow that's a great wheelchair,, what happened to you?" It's rude, your job as a citizen is to leave it alone and treat everyone equally. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think it's fair to say, given the wide reach of social media and inter webs, that it is not all going to be preaching to the converted.


I disagree. Even if you have a pet dog, people who are dog people aren't out there looking up u-tubes about dogs and training. And most of the stuff shared on facebook isn't clicked on. You click on the links you think will be interesting. 

People that don't own dogs, are probably not going to bother clicking on it. And even if they do, people rarely see their own actions in someone's rant. 

I think the likes are from the people that, for the most part, have a dog that needs space. Maybe a few people that want to train with distractions that do not include interference. And the people sharing this with people who are not dog-people, well, people who are not dog people that have one in the family, learn to tune out all the crap that the dog-person sends their way. 

It is preaching to the choir. I think there are more effective ways to change how people perceive dogs in public. When I was young, the only service dogs you heard about were Seeing Eye dogs, and we were definitely TAUGHT not to mess with the dog while it was working -- never bother a dog that is working. And, we never did. People are failing to teach kids. That video isn't addressing that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Let me just say the swearing doesn't turn me off. I don't necessarily think he is a macho jerk. Someone who swears like that may not have had the opportunities and education that I have been fortunate enough to have. Now when people like Paris Hilton swear I cringe. She has had plenty of opportunities and education and when she does it, it is just crass... But the majority of people who swear were raised in an environment where swearing is not only ok but is encouraged and rewarded. My dad was from NJ he never graduated high school and then was a soldier in WWII. He didn't swear to be a "macho jerk". Many of our service members protecting our country swear. That is the lifestyle they live while in the service. It's part of the culture of the service and it is part of the culture of many areas of the U.S.
> 
> Do you get offended when someone says bloody? I think its funny but in England I guess that is a horrible swear word to some. It all depends on where and how you were raised.
> 
> I'm sorry some are turned off by his language because I think his message is a good one. If he had said it more politely or PC, I don't think anyone would be arguing with the content of his message.


My mother, when she was raising us, could put that yayhoo to shame. Whatever. Language or no language, I don't like that he says, "get your own dog." 

If his message was:
If the dog is behaving, don't bother it.
If the dog is tethered or in a car, don't bother it.
Don't bark at it, don't touch it.

ASK, and be prepared for the dog owner to say no.

I have no problem with any of that. 

My problem is with the Get your own dog bad advice. 
I don't like that he condones tethering a dog unaccompanied outside a store, that isn't cool.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, Sue on this we are not going to agree.

@the wretched, kids on all fours barking at your SD? Sheesh. I read a story about a person who was having lunch at a restaurant and the people next table over asked if they could give his service dog a French fry. The dogs owner said, no please don't he is working and on a special diet.

As they left they threw a couple of French fries onto the floor right in front of the dog.

Yup those folks deserved a talkin' to as would be delivered by the trainer in the video.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

In 2 months, I have seen 4 kids get on all fours and bark in her face.. I've had people run away from her, I've had forced pets (people walking by give a quick pat on the head) thankfully SDs are considered a extension of me, so basically if anyone forcefully touches her, they get charged with assault as they would a person... For the most part, everyone stays clear and is very nice, but out of a crowded store, or a mall, that 1 out of a 100 figure happens quite a bit when there are 500 people. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thewretched said:


> In 2 months, I have seen 4 kids get on all fours and bark in her face.. I've had people run away from her, I've had forced pets (people walking by give a quick pat on the head) thankfully SDs are considered a extension of me, so basically if anyone forcefully touches her, they get charged with assault as they would a person... For the most part, everyone stays clear and is very nice, but out of a crowded store, or a mall, that 1 out of a 100 figure happens quite a bit when there are 500 people.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


Since parents aren't doing the job, they should teach it in school. I mean, what is Social Studies supposed to be anyway?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well, Sue on this we are not going to agree.
> 
> @the wretched, kids on all fours barking at your SD? Sheesh. I read a story about a person who was having lunch at a restaurant and the people next table over asked if they could give his service dog a French fry. The dogs owner said, no please don't he is working and on a special diet.
> 
> ...


We don't have to agree.


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

In line to drop my kids at school I've had one kid run up to the car window and scream "DOGGY" right in her face and then bark at her and another kid who tried to stick his arm through the small open portion of the car window. I speak with my kids often about dog safety. Multiple times even. Daily sometimes for my 3 yr old. Luckily Zoe just wants to lick people to death but it's still unnerving. 

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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

See, this is what I mean. If people are doing that to service dogs you know it's a problem across the board. 

Every time I chat with a SD owner I am just that much more dismayed. Sheesh.

No wonder there's some frustration.

...and Sue put the parents in a classroom with this trainer, that should help. :wild:





Thewretched said:


> In 2 months, I have seen 4 kids get on all fours and bark in her face.. I've had people run away from her, I've had forced pets (people walking by give a quick pat on the head) thankfully SDs are considered a extension of me, so basically if anyone forcefully touches her, they get charged with assault as they would a person... For the most part, everyone stays clear and is very nice, but out of a crowded store, or a mall, that 1 out of a 100 figure happens quite a bit when there are 500 people.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree.  




selzer said:


> We don't have to agree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> See, this is what I mean. If people are doing that to service dogs you know it's a problem across the board.
> 
> Every time I chat with a SD owner I am just that much more dismayed. Sheesh.
> 
> ...


Yeah, maybe _that _would help.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well, Sue on this we are not going to agree.
> 
> @the wretched, kids on all fours barking at your SD? Sheesh. I read a story about a person who was having lunch at a restaurant and the people next table over asked if they could give his service dog a French fry. The dogs owner said, no please don't he is working and on a special diet.
> 
> ...


rude ignorent people for sure, but i would think a service dog would be trained not to eat food from strangers.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> See, this is what I mean. If people are doing that to service dogs you know it's a problem across the board.
> 
> Every time I chat with a SD owner I am just that much more dismayed. Sheesh.
> 
> ...


it is only a problem for dog owners. those that are not dog owners have no clue they can be hurt or that their behavior is considered rule. IMHO, it is up to the dog owner to be prepared and avoid situations that their dogs are not prepared for.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

So basically what you are saying over and over in this thread is that there shouldn't be any boundaries when it comes to dogs, even service dogs.

I don't agree with the comments you've made in this thread at all.

I applaud the push back on this "dogs are to be treated like public property" meme.

*Nothing* personal as you've made posts on other topics that I agree with, but in this case I think your point of view is that which enables this bad behavior, even with Working SDs, is a part of the problem.



huntergreen said:


> rude ignorent people for sure, but i would think a service dog would be trained not to eat food from strangers.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> rude ignorent people for sure, but i would think a service dog would be trained not to eat food from strangers.


Well in that sense "rude ignorant people are doing folks that train service dogs a favor! My guy is "not'" a service dog but now he is "excellent" in public, he "was" a "bubble dog"  He doesn't give a crap about strangers and won't take treats from them "tested."

I would love to train a service dog myself but hey it's NV!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> So basically what you are saying over and over in this thread is that there shouldn't be any boundaries when it comes to dogs, even service dogs.
> 
> I don't agree with the comments you've made in this thread at all.
> 
> ...


Some one's point of view, unless they are out there encouraging people to run up and pet everyone's dog, should not be contributing to the problem. 

What is the problem? People invading the space of others. People not understanding the distance that people would like for them to keep. I have asthma. When a lady comes up next to me doused with, it is a real problem for me. Is it her problem? Should she know better than to walk next to me, or stand next to me in a crowd, or sit next to me on a bus?

Dogs are an attractive nuisance. Little kids are attracted to them. If your child is not yet trustworthy to always wait and ask, than parents should have the kids with a death grip hold on their hand, and ask for them. But, the fact of the matter is, not all parents can or will do that 100% of the time. So taking a dog out that is not safe enough to manage a child's coming up to it, while not impossible, it just means that the dog owner has to be 100% vigilent at all times and block children who are coming. If they can do that with kids, they can do that with adults.

I personally think that the attitude that my dog has rights, and I should be able to walk them anywhere, regardless of their temperament, because people should respect my dogs' and my space; and if something should happen, it is the other guy's fault -- adds to the problem of people having bad experiences with dogs. 

Ya know what? I do take dogs places. I have had a couple of loose dog incidents that I complained about here, and one time I complained about a child running up to a dog I was out with, while I was paying, and hugging it. Nothing bad happened because the dog was a good dog, and he had been around children. But it was scary nonetheless. If something bad had happened, the child's parents or guardians would have been ticked at me for having a dangerous dog in a public place without denying access to children. 

Other than that one incident, I have been able to work around the distractions -- yes some idiot was barking at my dog one day. We worked through the distraction. People have asked to pet my dogs, we let them, or we do not let them. People, especially children have come up to me without asking, and I told them no. I require that people ask if they want to pet my dog. It is just a distraction, and people do not get close enough to pet my dog without my permission -- that is on me. Sorry. It is. I am the one who will have to pay the consequences, and I own the dog. 

I must have gotten pretty good at it because it has been years since I have had to rebuke a child or block an adult from my dogs. 

While we do not have to agree about this, we certainly do not have to tell each other that holding our opinions about this exacerbates the problem.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Holding an opinion that it's O.K. To throw food at a working service dog after being told not to feed it does validate what has become a cultural norm. 


I don't care if the dog is trained to ignore food offered or not. That doesn't make it O.K. Especially when the case I mentioned is a working dog with a vest AND the owner had already told the people to not give it food. That's the scenario huntergreen responded to and it's wrong. 

Where's the boundaries here? If people are that desperate for the dogs attention is it O.K. For them to pelt it with treats? Is it o.k. For them to grab the leash and give it a tug (that has happened too)?

No, no and no. 

As I said earlier validating, excusing and allowing this sort of thing is part of the reason we can't bring out dogs to as many public places. It actually limits our freedoms with our dogs, not to mention causing unnecessary stress for SD handlers.

I may just go ahead and get a t-shirt made up that states, "The Dog is Being Good, Leave It Alone!"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

.




..and from another rather _irreverent_ dog person,some thing about dogs needing space too. Here the term 'bubble' is used btw!

Note the labs vs herder overlords mentioned. . LOL!

Here the responsibility is put back on those who aren't paying attention or otherwise are being careless and clueless, as it should be. 

Why should my dog have to be bomb proofed for every doofus who can't control their dog? Like the lady yesterday who almost let her dog jump into the back of my SUV. Had Ilda not been crated and he jumped in that poor fat old lab would have been in trouble. Because my dog doesn't want a strange dog invading my (and by default her) territory/space I'm the one in the wrong by the standards that seem to have become the norm? So should because lady with the untrained derpy lab on a flexi was not paying attention Not controlling her dog I have to spend my time training my dogs to tolerate any and every dog jumping into the back of my SUV?




> That Lab who rushes your dog is just being a Lab (sweet, but socially inept and completely unaware of the rules and regulations as dictated by the herder overlords), but as a dog owner it is YOUR responsibility to manage these interactions and understand what is “rude” in dog language and not allow your dog to be a repeat canine offender.


http://thedogsnobs.com/2013/07/30/your-dog-isnt-being-friendly-hes-an-*******-and-so-are-you/


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> rude ignorent people for sure, but i would think a service dog would be trained not to eat food from strangers.



So I can drop rat poison in front of children? And loaded guns? And say "well it should know not to touch it" 

Yes, they should know, but accidents happen. 

there is no reason why someone should ever do that, 

When you see a service dog, you stop looking at it and keep walking.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> So basically what you are saying over and over in this thread is that there shouldn't be any boundaries when it comes to dogs, even service dogs.
> 
> I don't agree with the comments you've made in this thread at all.
> 
> ...


Gwen, of course this isn't personal. i am not saying there "shouldn't" be boundaries, i am saying people for what ever reason do not see paying attention to your dog as ignoring boundaries. in my world, there is 90 + year old woman that lives on lake front property. she moved there over 70 years ago. i am told she always had a gsd or 2 until she was in her late seventies and decided she could no longer have one after her husband passed. now when i was training kyra, you would think an exp gsd owner would be able see a young dog at heel with a training collar and know better than to interrupt. yet every time i walked by, there she was waiting to get her gsd fix. the truth is she loved kyra as much as we did and cried just as hard when kyra passed at 14. Seems to me people forget common sense when a dog catches their eye. i believe this is something all dog owners have to learn to deal with in what ever way works, including avoiding unwanted situations. for example, i wouldn't bring my troubled gsd to a public mall to do some training and expect people to keep their distance. i would avoid the mall in favor of a far less crowded and controllable area. that is all i am saying. so at this point maybe we should just agree to disagree. also, near me, it seems most people know not to bother service dogs. maybe because of all the folks who foster pups for the morristown seeing eye institute.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Thewretched said:


> So I can drop rat poison in front of children? And loaded guns? And say "well it should know not to touch it"
> 
> Yes, they should know, but accidents happen.
> 
> ...


do you really want to equate rat poison and children to an idiot who threw some fries to service dog. surely you can get your point across with a better scenario. hope children avoid your house on halloween.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

They do. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's not what you've indicated here thus far, as a matter of fact you even made comments to shepherdmom regarding her desire for personal space.

Not everyone needs to be a social butterfly and that includes dogs.

I don't care about anecdotal stories about 90 year old neighbors. I just don't care. Also, the trainer in the video isn't talking about dogs with severe aggression issues and neither am I. This really is NOT about extremes!

*I'm talking about the vast squishy middle here where most of the problems occur.* 

The blog I linked earlier mentioned it as well (although because they put a swear word in the title link won't work, which I wish they wouldn't do that) but still the point is very valid.

Why does my dog have to be 150% bomb and idiot proof because someone else hasn't taken the time to train their derpy goofy lab? That's THEIR problem NOT mine and I think we've gone way too far enabling people who are, for all practical purposes, being too lazy to train THEIR dogs.

AND....for those who whistle or bark or otherwise act obnoxiously, not to mention throwing French fries at a working SD, if they are adults, they NEED a good talking to. 

It's time to stop enabling these people.



huntergreen said:


> Gwen, of course this isn't personal. i am not saying there "shouldn't" be boundaries, i am saying people for what ever reason do not see paying attention to your dog as ignoring boundaries. in my world, there is 90 + year old woman that lives on lake front property. she moved there over 70 years ago. i am told she always had a gsd or 2 until she was in her late seventies and decided she could no longer have one after her husband passed. now when i was training kyra, you would think an exp gsd owner would be able see a young dog at heel with a training collar and know better than to interrupt. yet every time i walked by, there she was waiting to get her gsd fix. the truth is she loved kyra as much as we did and cried just as hard when kyra passed at 14. Seems to me people forget common sense when a dog catches their eye. i believe this is something all dog owners have to learn to deal with in what ever way works, including avoiding unwanted situations. for example, i wouldn't bring my troubled gsd to a public mall to do some training and expect people to keep their distance. i would avoid the mall in favor of a far less crowded and controllable area. that is all i am saying. so at this point maybe we should just agree to disagree. also, near me, it seems most people know not to bother service dogs. maybe because of all the folks who foster pups for the morristown seeing eye institute.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As what happened to me yesterday and the lady with fat lab on a flexi.

She heard Ilda bark in her crate. She allowed her lab to unreel the flexi and get closer and closer. Then when she finally noticed what he was doing she locked the flexi and the dog started pulling her and got even closer.

It was then that I finally asked her "Don't let your dog get too close" and she got VERY angry with me.

I didn't swear, I didn't raise my voice, I was matter of the fact because of the dog was winning the tug of war and she was loosing.

It wasn't until I said something that she put some oomph into pulling him back away from me and my car.

Now I didn't mean to ruin her whole day but by golly I have the right to ask her to get control of her dog and she probably thinks I'm a big meanie but next time she may think twice and at least pay attention!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's not what you've indicated here thus far, as a matter of fact you even made comments to shepherdmom regarding her desire for personal space.
> 
> Not everyone needs to be a social butterfly and that includes dogs.
> 
> ...



But, you're wrong, we are talking about extremes. The man in the video mentioned a dog that _now _has a bite history. He did not make his little tirade until there was a dog with a bite history in the picture. Why? Well, why do most of us not put together a u-tube every time someone says "hi" and tried to pet our dog? Because NOTHING HAPPENED. We maybe said something to them, and we mabye didn't, maybe after the fact we got peeved and made a post about it, but we did go walking down the street spitting and swearing and ranting and raving, because NOTHING HAPPENED. 

Extremes are dogs that need a bubble or they will bite someone. Some of us do have such dogs. And they may want the rest of the world to cotton on to what this yayhoo is saying and keep their distance, but if they bank on that, they will have nothing left to bank with. The dog he is talking about BIT someone -- that IS extreme. I have a bunch of dogs, and have had a LOT of dogs and none of them have a bite history. Why? They either aren't that extreme, or I am not banking on people acting appropriately. It is up to us to protect our dogs. 

And as for the dude throwing the fries at the service dog with a vest, after the owner politely told him no, the dog is working and on a special diet -- that is, I hope, extreme. Of course, not having a service dog, I do not notice everything that happens with them. If that is not extreme (and inappropriate) behavior, then people with service dogs should be pushing even harder to get an educational program in place in the schools so that children will graduate knowing how to behave around service dogs, or be dealing with a probation officer and doing community service.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.k one - I'm the OP and the intent of this thread was never to be about dogs with serious aggression issues. Yes folks have and can bring it up on a public forum but it really IS off topic. If you guys want to start a thread about should dogs that require a muzzle be allowed in public that's a good topic but it's not related to the video I posted at all. I've mentioned that a couple of times in this thread.

Two - Stories about 90 year old grannies and dogs with extreme aggression are an appeal to emotion. This isn't about making people feel bad or whether Cujo should be able to go to a public park. It's not.

Again, this is about leaving dogs alone who are being good. The dog is being good, don't whistle at it, don't pat your leg and make kissy noises at it, don't bark at it, leave it alone. Don't let your kids throw French fries at SD either, same general category. Leave it alone it's working....(and as two SD owners have noted and I've heard about this in the past IRL people interfering with SDs is a lot more common then I think many of us realized, myself included.)

...with a side bar of if my dog is being good that's also NOT an invitation to let your lab hump my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> O.k one - I'm the OP and the intent of this thread was never to be about dogs with serious aggression issues. Yes folks have and can bring it up on a public forum but it really IS off topic. If you guys want to start a thread about should dogs that require a muzzle be allowed in public that's a good topic but it's not related to the video I posted at all. I've mentioned that a couple of times in this thread.
> 
> Two - Stories about 90 year old grannies and dogs with extreme aggression are an appeal to emotion. This isn't about making people feel bad or whether Cujo should be able to go to a public park. It's not.
> 
> ...


The thread is about the u-tube.

The u-tube was made because a dog that was minding its own business bit someone who crossed into its personal space. 

I don't think it is off-topic at all. The topic expanded to include service dogs and how they are treated, but that is so closely related, I don't think it should be pegged off-topic either.

The story about the 90 year old granny is DEFINITELY on topic. This man has a GSD, and he is walking it, it is being good and Granny is doing some of the things the guy in the video is harping on about. Comes to find out, that the old lady no longer feels she can provide a good home for a GSD, and misses them, and likes the dog. I think it is makes far greater sense to share well-tempered GSDs within reason with people who do not own dogs than to encourage all of them to "get your own dog." 

Not off-topic. Understandable. Not every person who loves dogs, or is interested in dogs, or is drawn to dog _should _own one right now. And Hunter's suggestion that common sense goes out the window sometimes, when people see a dog is also true. 

We have something that is irresistible in some ways and to some people. We need to protect our dogs from other people's foolishness sometimes. We need to step in and block some encounters. We have to stop being mice and letting people walk all over us and our dogs, especially if there is a reason. But we should also be understanding that some people are not going to follow what we think the accepted protocol should be, and we need to be prepared. 

I am sorry that I did not get what you wanted me to get out of the video you posted. I don't think I am off-topic. I just did not get the same overall stuff out of the video. Some things you cannot control -- like what people think about something you post.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nope, it's off topic. 

I think there's far less 'grey' area with dogs that have known aggression problems. Totally different then people (usually strangers) hasseling the average dog being walked down the street or well trained SD (eta which SDs are on topic because they are doing their job, not aggressive and being hasseled, I've said that a couple of times).

*If the dog is being good, leave it alone. *Is the core message here. 

BTW- that's not to say that the topic you and others have brought up about aggression isn't a good topic, it is. In fact I'm curious so I started a thread in the 'Aggression' Subforum.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The guy is mad and spouting because a dog now has a bite history. It's in his u-tube. It's not off-topic to your original post, unless by affirming the content of the video, any thing that does not also affirm it, is off topic. 

I think we all agree that people shouldn't walk up and pet without permission, bark at, or otherwise annoy dogs that are being good. It is a given on a dog-forum. 

Many of us who regularly train dogs so we can go and compete, or just take them to places without any drama, actually find the behavior of humans at best unexpected socialization/distraction and a chance to work through it to proof or practice with our dogs in public with people, and at worst a rather annoying distraction. If the dog doesn't have weak nerves, than barking at, petting, and otherwise (not extreme) ordinary actions the general public might do is not going to bother the dog. 

It may bother us. Our reaction might be worse for a dog than the person's actions we are annoyed at. 

If we are training a dog in a public place, then it's up to us to control the amount of environment our dog is ready for and is exposed to. It is a failure on the dog owner's part if someone comes up and pulls their dog's tail or pinches its ears. It doesn't mean the person who did these things is ok, it means the dog owner has the burden of protecting his dog, and failed to do so. And it is also on the dog-owner to manage interactions, like the puppy is encouraged by a stranger to jump up on them for pets -- rewarding to the puppy. But the dog-owner needs to prevent/correct that not expect the stranger to do so.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My Smitty dog is as friendly as they come.

He's super tolerant of other dogs and acts more like a Golden when it comes to people.

When I first got him I couldn't figure out how to train him. He's loves people, just doesn't care if he pleases them or not. It's all about Smitty.

I was still heavily involved in horses so didn't really look for other methods (because treats and praise and my low key way from being around horses just didn't click with him but I didn't know better) so he was stuck at home a lot. If I took him out and tried to make him sit people would invariably see this happy tail wagging dog, tongue lolling out the side of his mouth and they would just walk up and mush all over him. He'd enjoy that for a few moments and then be dragging me off to the next place of more interest.

So it went. I didn't know better, it was a habit he already had and I didn't worry about it, as long as he was friendly.

Then I started learning. I found better methods that worked with Smitty and I started thinking it would be nice to get a CGC with him.

So now I had to teach him to not jump around and be a happy goof ball with every stranger he met. I worked with people I knew but out in public trying to proof was a nightmare. Folks just want the dog to pay attention to them, it makes them 'feel' good, or special. How often did I hear "all dogs love me" when my Smitty was all wiggly and lovey. I guess they didn't realize he's that way with EVERYBODY.

So now to undo all this, on a mature dog, I'd have to start correcting him. Happy bouncy goober dog, I tried it for a bit but just felt at this point it wasn't fair. Partly because it's such an entrenched thing with him now and partly because I'm not an expert trainer with just the right timing and such and partly because he's clearly a friendly dog people are, often, undoing my work. It ends up being unfair. 

With Ilda I knew better. Plus she's very aloof with strangers so she doesn't send out any 'come pet me' signals. Still, I've been walking with her down a sidewalk and had people who were seated suddenly reach out, without warning and stroke her without asking. 

The moral of my story is, if you want to achieve a goal, even something like a CGC people who do the sort of thing the trainer mentions in the video are making it much harder. Sometimes it's lack of knowledge and sometimes they are just being total jerks. When it comes to NON aggressive dogs, he's right.

Leave the dog alone, it's *not your* dog.

Going forward I'm going to be more direct, NOT rude. I won't swear or raise my voice but if someone is messing with my dog, while it's being good, I will say something. Period. End of story.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

So with my service dog, it's my responsibility to physically stop all people, children included, from talking to my SD? I have to watch 360 degrees, and make sure no one is calling or about to touch her? The answer is yes, I do, but guess what, I shouldn't.

We all agree that every time were training our dog attention, or whatever the trick may be, a 2ft heel perhaps, and a person says "HI PUPPY" and forcefully pets your dog, and undos 2 hours of progress, we're upset. 

We all agree that it's our responsibility to tell those people not to before they get to us. But 50% of the time, they weren't going to, and we come off as rude. It's just the worst when we just have to mess up ONCE and something happens to our dogs, but I'd rather be a (bleep) 100 times than let my dog get hurt.



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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. Fair enough! :thumbup:




Thewretched said:


> So with my service dog, it's my responsibility to physically stop all people, children included, from talking to my SD? I have to watch 360 degrees, and make sure no one is calling or about to touch her? The answer is yes, I do, but guess what, I shouldn't.
> 
> We all agree that every time were training our dog attention, or whatever the trick may be, a 2ft heel perhaps, and a person says "HI PUPPY" and forcefully pets your dog, and undos 2 hours of progress, we're upset.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> My Smitty dog is as friendly as they come.
> 
> He's super tolerant of other dogs and acts more like a Golden when it comes to people.
> 
> ...


For me, I find how strangers behave helps me and my dogs in the process of getting CGCs and Titles. 

I sent you a PM. 

I am only going to add, that I have taken numerous CGC classes. Because of availability and that being what was offered, I have taken CGC classes with dogs that already had their CGCs, sometimes multiple times. And I take the test over too, because taking the test is good practice, even if we have passed it. I think I passed the test with Rush 5 times. So I have been to a LOT of CGC classes. 

My dogs while they do not have this problem, every class has dogs that come out with the problem you describe. They want to get pets from everyone and are jumping up, etc. These dogs almost always pass their CGC. This is not an insurmountable problem. 

In fact, dogs that are wary of being petted by strangers, wary of having their ears or paws handled, being brushed, petted on top of the head -- these dogs have far greater challenges to overcome.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Smitty is going on 8 years old and was an adult rescue. He's a good boy, loose leash walks now, holds a sit/down until he is petted by stranger then he gets all goofy. I worked on it but decided it just wasn't something I wanted to work on at this point. 

I like him the way he is really. Sweet, happy and at 8 years old I'm not going to worry about it. If his only problem is being too friendly I sure can live with that. The only reason I shared that story (reluctantly I might add) is because as I admitted, not being experienced with training dogs at all, then working up hill with an adult rescue with habits PLUS *some* <not all> people who would interfere does cause problems. 

Got Ilda working on tracking and Autumn to work on with other goals. Autumn would be breeze to get a CGC with. I need to get to work on that...


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

You have a picture of your dogs? I don't believe I've seen your babies yet


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I used to have an 'album' in my profile but I'm not sure what happened to the pics in there.

I'll post some up tomorrow and send you a PM. 

The dog in my avatar is Smitty. :wub:


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I'd love to see them


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> In fact, dogs that are wary of being petted by strangers, wary of having their ears or paws handled, being brushed, petted on top of the head -- these dogs have far greater challenges to overcome.


and how do you get them to overcome when every time you take them out in public some idiot is attacking their ears or the top of their head? I'm physically having to body block people from my puppy who go oooh cute puppy and then attack.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> and how do you get them to overcome when every time you take them out in public some idiot is attacking their ears or the top of their head? I'm physically having to body block people from my puppy who go oooh cute puppy and then attack.



Are they hurting your puppy? They seriously attack your dog? Pull or pinch its ears? Pound on the top of its head? Are you experiencing this? 

Is your puppy showing fear of these people? 

Seriously, Shepherdmom, if these people are not hurting your dog, you might be causing more problems for the pup than the people are, by the vibes you are sending down the leash. No socialization is better than bad socialization. The important thing to remember when it comes to socialization is to be calm and confident. If you get worked up about how people are acting around your puppy, you can create problems where there are none.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> Are they hurting your puppy? They seriously attack your dog? Pull or pinch its ears? Pound on the top of its head? Are you experiencing this?
> 
> Is your puppy showing fear of these people?


Airplane ears, tail curled around his but hiding behind me, oh yeah that is fear. Do you really think I don't know the difference between good socialization and bad? I am not about to let giggling tweens screaching cute puppy and trying to grab his ears, set back 3 months of progress. My dog will never be what did someone call it? "a social butterfly". But he does need to function and to do that he needs to have some socialization. I should be able to walk through a store without having idiot people attack without warning.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's not what you've indicated here thus far, as a matter of fact you even made comments to shepherdmom regarding her desire for personal space.
> 
> Not everyone needs to be a social butterfly and that includes dogs.
> 
> ...


gwen, i am 5'9" and 215 pounds, though i should be at around 200,lol, and the truth is that if a gsd wants to do something while on a leash, i would be unable to out muscle any gsd. can you?
your dog needs to be idiot proof and 150% bomb proof because you are legally held liable for everything your dog does. there are always going to be stupid ignorant uneducated people out there. that is the world we live in. 
i have worked in emergency rooms for more than 30 years now and have seen the destruction an untrained unstable dog can do to people. mauled children that will never look normal again no matter how good the plastic surgeon, lost fingers and ears, hands that will never function properly again as the tendons were damaged beyond repair, infections and the list goes on. adults that loose there homes because they can't work after a dog mauling. truth is, the worst dog mauling i have ever seen was done by a beagle against a grown man. 
of course you missed the point of the story about the 90 year old lady as "its all about you and your rights". you and the low class guy that needs to swear to get attention in the video can complain about how the world should be and rage at those of us who point out how the world is and in this case you need to adapt. 
let me be the first to thank you for the one day when your just not 100%, bad cold have the flu and just off enough so that the muzzle you put on is just not quite correct, and you are just a bit distracted and in one second, the kid that got away from an equally distracted parent, or the dog loving person who thinks a muzzle is just precaution and even the idiot who barks at your dog is missing body parts, or if the muzzle did its job the dogs paw just took out an eye. but what the heck, you have your rights. keep yelling that as the cop puts your dog down on the spot. repeat that as the judge fines you into financial ruination, and takes away your other dogs and bans you from ever owning another dog. keep screaming about your rights as they drag you out o court as you continue to argue with the judge after his ruling. i am thanking you because in your quest to show you and your dog have rights, you just furthered the argument of many who want certain dog breed bans in their towns. for causing ins rates to go higher or making gsd uninsurable altogether. again though, why would you care about any of this, after all, you have rights and you are out to prove this to everyone. of course your "rebel" thinking does give me job security so i thank you for that also.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> your dog needs to be idiot proof and 150% bomb proof because you are legally held liable for everything your dog does. there are always going to be stupid ignorant uneducated people out there. that is the world we live in.
> i have worked in emergency rooms for more than 30 years now and have seen the destruction an untrained unstable dog can do to people.


And how exactly do we get these 150% bomb proof dogs if we can't socialize them because of idiot people? Your argument makes no sense. You want everyone to have bomb proof dogs but we can't take them out in public to get them that way... 

I moved way out to the boonies and there are still people, like you, who don't respect personal space. A little common courtesy would go a heck of a long way to reducing the problems but some of you just can't let people be. You keep poking the bear and heck yes you are going to get bit. However, its not going to be my dog that bites you!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Well there is one thing I've gotten out of this thread. I made the appointment. Dude is going to get neutered next week. I can't take the chance.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't miss any point. Liability isn't an issue when someone throws a cookie at your dog when you are walking by, for example.

The below has nothing to do with people who hassle dogs that are being good, obedient or are working SDs. Your rambling about 90 year old neighbors, your weight, cold and flu, or beagles has nothing to do with some people who feel they need to mess with other people's dogs. :crazy:

The air was darkened for a moment as the volley of red herrings flew over head.

Duck, incoming!!




huntergreen said:


> gwen, i am 5'9" and 215 pounds, though i should be at around 200,lol, and the truth is that if a gsd wants to do something while on a leash, i would be unable to out muscle any gsd. can you?
> your dog needs to be idiot proof and 150% bomb proof because you are legally held liable for everything your dog does. there are always going to be stupid ignorant uneducated people out there. that is the world we live in.
> i have worked in emergency rooms for more than 30 years now and have seen the destruction an untrained unstable dog can do to people. mauled children that will never look normal again no matter how good the plastic surgeon, lost fingers and ears, hands that will never function properly again as the tendons were damaged beyond repair, infections and the list goes on. adults that loose there homes because they can't work after a dog mauling. truth is, the worst dog mauling i have ever seen was done by a beagle against a grown man.
> of course you missed the point of the story about the 90 year old lady as "its all about you and your rights". you and the low class guy that needs to swear to get attention in the video can complain about how the world should be and rage at those of us who point out how the world is and in this case you need to adapt.
> let me be the first to thank you for the one day when your just not 100%, bad cold have the flu and just off enough so that the muzzle you put on is just not quite correct, and you are just a bit distracted and in one second, the kid that got away from an equally distracted parent, or the dog loving person who thinks a muzzle is just precaution and even the idiot who barks at your dog is missing body parts, or if the muzzle did its job the dogs paw just took out an eye. but what the heck, you have your rights. keep yelling that as the cop puts your dog down on the spot. repeat that as the judge fines you into financial ruination, and takes away your other dogs and bans you from ever owning another dog. keep screaming about your rights as they drag you out o court as you continue to argue with the judge after his ruling. i am thanking you because in your quest to show you and your dog have rights, you just furthered the argument of many who want certain dog breed bans in their towns. for causing ins rates to go higher or making gsd uninsurable altogether. again though, why would you care about any of this, after all, you have rights and you are out to prove this to everyone. of course your "rebel" thinking does give me job security so i thank you for that also.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree...but..

At this point, on another site, we'd be talking about bacon, Kittehs, or goats 'cause there's nothing else to work with.

That's how internet 'discussions' go. 

Good luck with your Dude.




shepherdmom said:


> And how exactly do we get these 150% bomb proof dogs if we can't socialize them because of idiot people? Your argument makes no sense. You want everyone to have bomb proof dogs but we can't take them out in public to get them that way...
> 
> I moved way out to the boonies and there are still people, like you, who don't respect personal space. A little common courtesy would go a heck of a long way to reducing the problems but some of you just can't let people be. You keep poking the bear and heck yes you are going to get bit. However, its not going to be my dog that bites you!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks for the laugh, Gwen  I liked that youtube and thought it was funny. I've also used the "Go get your own dog!" comment many times myself, lol. I also use this line for lots of other things, just changing "dog" to whatever suits the subject at hand - for people who like to harangue strangers with their unsolicited opinions. Gee, if you don't like how I train/what I feed/if my dog is intact/etc...go get your own dog! It doesn't mean I think they'd provide a great home - it means 'mind your own business and leave mine alone!'

The colorful language doesn't bother me either. I don't mind a few swear words myself. It's not like I'd use that sort of language around my mother, lol.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> And how exactly do we get these 150% bomb proof dogs if we can't socialize them because of idiot people? Your argument makes no sense. You want everyone to have bomb proof dogs but we can't take them out in public to get them that way...
> 
> I moved way out to the boonies and there are still people, like you, who don't respect personal space. A little common courtesy would go a heck of a long way to reducing the problems but some of you just can't let people be. You keep poking the bear and heck yes you are going to get bit. However, its not going to be my dog that bites you!


no, i am saying if your dog isn't bombproof, you don't take it out in public places where you know a bite is most likely going to occur. if i adopted one of mike vicks pit bulls, i wouldn't bring that dog to a dog park.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I didn't miss any point. Liability isn't an issue when someone throws a cookie at your dog when you are walking by, for example.
> 
> The below has nothing to do with people who hassle dogs that are being good, obedient or are working SDs. Your rambling about 90 year old neighbors, your weight, cold and flu, or beagles has nothing to do with some people who feel they need to mess with other people's dogs. :crazy:
> 
> ...


then you need some help with your critical reading and thinking skills. 

not one of my posts states people SHOULD run up to your dog, but that is how people are. they do state that is the world we live in, deal with it or don't go to public places. 

bring an an unstable dog out in public deal with the inevitable consequences. get your but sued off. that is the world we live in.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> then you need some help with your critical reading and thinking skills.
> 
> not one of my posts states people SHOULD run up to your dog, but that is how people are. they do state that is the world we live in, deal with it or don't go to public places.
> 
> bring an an unstable dog out in public deal with the inevitable consequences. get your but sued off. that is the world we live in.


WOW!!?? Not really your point I know but package that "attitude up" and rest assured when you take a "Bubble dog" out in public...few will be getting in your dogs face!


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Before this afternoon, I wasn't really concerned about either side. My dogs are well behaved. They enjoy people and would never do anything to anyone... because that's their personality and how they were raised.

However... I have a SDiT. As I have said in the past, she doesn't have to be with me 24/7, just due to the nature of my disability. And so I don't push for public access.

She hasn't really learned tasks yet, but at this point she has been able to do enough of an untrained grounding task for me. It requires me to be vigilant in how my body and mind are feeling, and sit down on the ground so she can get on my lap and help me calm down and breath again.

And today, I needed that. I was going to the store for a quick trip. Literally run in, grab a few things, and leave. I was very worried about passing out today, and having her with me helps keep me calm, think about myself, not push myself to where that would happen, etc.

And she did great.... but there was this kid. I walked into the store, Arya was walking quietly by the cart. Suddenly this kid's parents were all "ooh, look at the dog! Don't let it bite you!" And the kid ran up and started to grab her tail and ears. Arya took it in stride and just kinda looked at this 10-11 year old kid like "umm... what on earth dude?". Great attitude for a puppy to have at this point in her training.

And even though I tried keeping her away, this kid followed me through the store, grabbing at my WORKING dog, and the parents did nothing but laugh and encourage it. And I was feeling too sick at the time to do more than quietly whisper "please don't touch my dog" and try to keep her closer.

Now that I'm not in the situation anymore... I feel both violated and furious. And I know that even though this was the first time, it will be far from the last, because of this "world" that huntergreen says that we live in, and so I should just live with it.

My dog was not there for that kid to play with. She was there to help me not dissociate or faint and get some groceries really fast.


It's not a matter of her having a bubble. It's a matter of people needing to realize that dogs, ESPECIALLY working dogs, are not public property. So... hands off. And teach your kids to keep their hands off.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I honestly am really shocked at how many problems people with SDs are having.

Clearly a lot more education is needed and it actually proves the point of the topic (and video) as it relates to how strangers react to dogs that aren't theirs. Leave them alone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah and right after shepherdmom got lectured about not being friendly enough. (Re block party). 




Chip18 said:


> WOW!!?? Not really your point I know but package that "attitude up" and rest assured when you take a "Bubble dog" out in public...few will be getting in your dogs face!


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> Before this afternoon, I wasn't really concerned about either side. My dogs are well behaved. They enjoy people and would never do anything to anyone... because that's their personality and how they were raised.
> 
> However... I have a SDiT. As I have said in the past, she doesn't have to be with me 24/7, just due to the nature of my disability. And so I don't push for public access.
> 
> ...


 I feel for you, send a PM if you ever want some humble tips to keep the horrible people away, at least to a minimum 





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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> Before this afternoon, I wasn't really concerned about either side. My dogs are well behaved. They enjoy people and would never do anything to anyone... because that's their personality and how they were raised.
> 
> However... I have a SDiT. As I have said in the past, she doesn't have to be with me 24/7, just due to the nature of my disability. And so I don't push for public access.
> 
> ...


So sorry! Is she wearing a vest? I don't know the rules but a vest would encourage the ignorant to back off...I would think??

Maybe it's time to start running public service announcements on a national level?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Serbrider said:


> It's not a matter of her having a bubble. It's a matter of people needing to realize that dogs, ESPECIALLY working dogs, are not public property. So... hands off. And teach your kids to keep their hands off.


So sorry this happened. Some people are idiots no matter what you do. :crazy:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good idea, but it really should apply to all dogs that aren't yours.

While it's more critical for working SDs I think it applies to anyone with a dog in public.

It's also easier to get the message across when it's simplified (since I know not all SDs wear the same kind of equipment or ID)

If it's not your dog leave it alone would be a good simple message.





Chip18 said:


> So sorry! Is she wearing a vest? I don't know the rules but a vest would encourage the ignorant to back off...I would think??
> 
> Maybe it's time to start running public service announcements on a national level?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I honestly am really shocked at how many problems people with SDs are having.
> 
> Clearly a lot more education is needed and it actually proves the point of the topic (and video) as it relates to how strangers react to dogs that aren't theirs. Leave them alone.


There is a big problem with people not respecting Service dogs. I take Gus out regularly and part of his training and socializing involves taking him into buildings..stores etc. I have advance permission to do so and he must be wearing his vest that states working dog..no petting. I am constantly blocking people and kids from attempts to pet, hug, kisses..it's bizarre. I have had kids grab him from behind with full body hugs and the parents say "aww isnt that cute". I don't worry about Gus biting anyone but I don't want ANYONE touching him while he is training or working. 

Without his vest very few people approach him so unless I am entering a business I no longer put his vest on.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

What does his vest say specifically? Ours said "service k-9" in bold college font, on one side, with "no eye contact" in smaller print above it, and the other side says "do not disturb" in bold college font, and "quiet" above it, keeps down the communication 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I appreciate you and the other SD handlers chiming in here. I really did take this video as a cheeky commentary that held true generally. 

Clearly it's opened the door to how much of a problem this sort of interference can cause especially for critical training and proofing that must be done in public.

I kept saying this isn't about aggressive dogs solely, (that is a separate problem needing it's own discussion).

This is about people either not understanding or ignoring the right of people walking, training or working their dogs to not be overtly hassled.




Saphire said:


> There is a big problem with people not respecting Service dogs. I take Gus out regularly and part of his training and socializing involves taking him into buildings..stores etc. I have advance permission to do so and he must be wearing his vest that states working dog..no petting. I am constantly blocking people and kids from attempts to pet, hug, kisses..it's bizarre. I have had kids grab him from behind with full body hugs and the parents say "aww isnt that cute". I don't worry about Gus biting anyone but I don't want ANYONE touching him while he is training or working.
> 
> Without his vest very few people approach him so unless I am entering a business I no longer put his vest on.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3733-what-do-you-tell-people.html#post2350981 has some tips that I wrote. The unwritten contract when I (all of us) take my (our) dogs out, is that I am putting them in the public, and the public likes dogs and may want to approach them. It is up to me to figure out the risk/reward and act accordingly. I generally do not have problems with people, and then it is with people who do not have control of their dogs - and my dogs look like what the heck man, why you gotta act like a dog?

Not everyone can read, and not everyone understands what a service dog is for, or what the rules are, for a variety of reasons. I find it very difficult to not pet one, and I know they are working, because they always make eye contact with me, and wag!  

But people in general wherever you all are at, are not going to stand and read a vest - a no touch might work - one patch, each side, big letters enough to be visible from 8 feet, along with a graphic. But by the time you are close enough to see it, you are close enough to grab. 

If I take my dogs out with a Ruffwear, or even a flyball type harness on, people ask if they can pet them because they are afraid it's a working dog - it is amazing to me that it appears to be a regional thing.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Clearly says 
"Working Dog"
Do not pet

On both sides...


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3733-what-do-you-tell-people.html#post2350981 has some tips that I wrote. The unwritten contract when I (all of us) take my (our) dogs out, is that I am putting them in the public, and the public likes dogs and may want to approach them. It is up to me to figure out the risk/reward and act accordingly. I generally do not have problems with people, and then it is with people who do not have control of their dogs - and my dogs look like what the heck man, why you gotta act like a dog?
> 
> Not everyone can read, and not everyone understands what a service dog is for, or what the rules are, for a variety of reasons. I find it very difficult to not pet one, and I know they are working, because they always make eye contact with me, and wag!
> 
> ...


I have noticed a lot of the SD vest patches are small and not easy to read from a distance. I wonder how many of you know about Julius K-9 (www.k9harness.com) harnesses? They have Velcro patches that I'm sure could Velcro to any harness, even ones they don't make. They have an assortment of 500+ various words/phrases for their working dog harnesses, to include things like DO NOT PET, IN TRAINING, SERVICE DOG, etc. Here's a pic of Kaze wearing one (below). You can clearly read the BOLD message from far away with these patches.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

we had "service dog" on her first 2 packs, and then I wanted to switch to K-9" you wouldn't believe that difference, a lot fewer approaches just that made. And more "is that a police dog" comments are a lot better than "can I pet?


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> So sorry! Is she wearing a vest? I don't know the rules but a vest would encourage the ignorant to back off...I would think??
> 
> Maybe it's time to start running public service announcements on a national level?


She doesn't wear a vest yet. I have a red harness that I use if I ever take her in public, but not yet a vest, since it is not required according to state laws here. Was hoping to wait until she was more fully grown and knew more actual tasks before I got one... looks like that might have to change.

I am planning on printing out a bunch of cards with info though, that I could give to people. With "don't touch my dog" at the very top.

k9harness is the place I was planning on getting mine from... was just hoping to avoid buying two or three as she was growing... since they aren't exactly a $7 cheap harness... but it's looking like I might have to... to try avoid those idiots... or having something extra I could point to.

Most people so far have been supportive and welcoming... when I did have a near fainting episode and sat down in the store Arya did her job well, got on my lap and sat there for me, allowing me to calm down and breath again. Several store employees came up to ask if I needed help with anything. I probably sounded like I was out of my mind... I was just like "no... I need jell-o... it's right there... I'll get it in a sec... thanks". It actually didn't cross my mind until the second employee rushed up and asked if I needed juice or something (probably thinking I'm diabetic, which is a very good and reasonable guess), that he kept asking because I was sitting on the floor with a pale face with my dog sitting on top of me doing her job. 

But yeah... looks like I'll be buying a vest soon.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> we had "service dog" on her first 2 packs, and then I wanted to switch to K-9" you wouldn't believe that difference, a lot fewer approaches just that made. And more "is that a police dog" comments are a lot better than "can I pet?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


I wish. Sabi was a working dog. In a harness clearly marked Security/K9, in the company of 3 uniformed, clearly identifiable humans, working crowd control, some idiot tried to hug her. Not pet her, HUG her.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I had people trying to pet Ilda, when I was working her in public. I got her from a bad situation at 6 months old and she hadn't been taken out but once until I got her.

I found a royal or dark blue with black edging vest with patches that stated "Do Not Pet" and "In Training" helped slow people down. I think the blue color being reminiscent of police colors made people pause. I did not have any official looking police or SD I.D. though. 

I almost bought a Julius harness, I saw some at a vendor at an IPO trial. They are nicely made vests /harnesses and you can get many different large Velcro patches that are easily changed depending on your needs.

You can also shop for them at CanisCallidus Online Shop

.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Well... just put in my order for a vest. Size 0 IDC Powerharness in Pink. With an adjustable leash (that I can use as a hands-free leash), an herbafill pad, with insect repellent, and two labels. One saying "IN TRAINING" and one saying "DON'T TOUCH". Once she's more trained and actually starting to learn some actual tasks that are trained I'll get a patch that says "SERVICE DOG" as well.

$80 total.

But... been needing to do it for a while... and I like their harness vests a lot better than the cape type, which can run around the same price... so yeah. For once I'm hoping she doesn't end up maturing too big... if so I'll have to get the size 1. My best guess of where she'll mature is right in between the two.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I'll have to show you a pick of ours, we are actually getting one monogrammed that will be ready Thursday, we went the backpack route.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I wish. Sabi was a working dog. In a harness clearly marked Security/K9, in the company of 3 uniformed, clearly identifiable humans, working crowd control, some idiot tried to hug her. Not pet her, HUG her.



That's insane.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I wish. Sabi was a working dog. In a harness clearly marked Security/K9, in the company of 3 uniformed, clearly identifiable humans, working crowd control, some idiot tried to hug her. Not pet her, HUG her.


Well that is insane. On the other hand if you raise a dog with a hard core "Bubble dog attitude" you have trouble letting it go! 

Three very nice kids asked politely if they could pet Rocky the other day and I said "I'd rather you didn't." He has been proven safe with kids/strangers/people in public but I have trouble letting go of the "Bubble Dog Thing!" 

He was off leash people were walking a small dog across the street. (I should have put him on leash when I saw them!) They picked up there dog...my bad!:blush: 

They asked if he was safe and I told them 'YES!" So groups of people and a group walking a small dog and three kids. Rocky had "Zero" reaction to all of it! 

Had it been my Boxer and the kids asked to pet her , I would have said "Please Do!" 

Guess it's like Cesar says "Dogs live in the here and now but people don't!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> Well... just put in my order for a vest. Size 0 IDC Powerharness in Pink. With an adjustable leash (that I can use as a hands-free leash), an herbafill pad, with insect repellent, and two labels. One saying "IN TRAINING" and one saying "DON'T TOUCH". Once she's more trained and actually starting to learn some actual tasks that are trained I'll get a patch that says "SERVICE DOG" as well.
> 
> $80 total.
> 
> But... been needing to do it for a while... and I like their harness vests a lot better than the cape type, which can run around the same price... so yeah. For once I'm hoping she doesn't end up maturing too big... if so I'll have to get the size 1. My best guess of where she'll mature is right in between the two.


Sorry you had to go through the trouble but I do think it will help...at least for those that can "read and comprehend!"

Sorry couldn't help myself! :blush:


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Sorry you had to go through the trouble but I do think it will help...at least for those that can "read and comprehend!"
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry couldn't help myself! :blush:



I sure hope it will help.  And she'll look more "official", which, while it's not legally necessary, will hopefully help with the rude crazies.

And I WAS planning on getting one, was just hoping to wait until she was more grown. Oh well, this one should last her a few months at least. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Well that is insane. On the other hand if you raise a dog with a hard core "Bubble dog attitude" you have trouble letting it go!
> 
> Three very nice kids asked politely if they could pet Rocky the other day and I said "I'd rather you didn't." He has been proven safe with kids/strangers/people in public but I have trouble letting go of the "Bubble Dog Thing!"
> 
> ...


My dogs have never given me the impression that they would actually bite someone. But I choose whether or not someone pets them. I do not say yes, just because they ask, but if they don't ask, they don't touch my dogs. Sometimes, I will say, I'm sorry, the dog has had enough today, don't want to overdo it. 

It has to be a regional thing with people not respecting service dogs. I think if some of the incidents mentioned in this thread happened around here, someone would get some unsolicited advice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeah the "low growl" pretty much "NO" mistaking that! Action required! First time I hear it I was horrified, second time I heard it I was grateful/surprised!? Nother story but yeah he means business!

But while certainly not elegant the guy made a point! "Bubble Dogs" and "Service Dogs" need there space! They may not have been the dogs he was talking about but they came to the fore front. 

Extremes are always easy to use as examples but clearly only a "moron" would interfere with a SD! I do think a vest of some type will help with that.

The "Bubble Dogs" owners... due diligence, common sense and a stay out of my dogs face attitude is what that takes! 

It worked for my dog but I find it hard to get out of the bubble myself.


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## Wicked Seraphim (May 17, 2014)

Hello,

I'm new to the forums and came acrss this thread and thought I'd post my thoughts.

First, loved the video, can definetly use some laughter in my life right now and that did it.

Second, my boy GSD who passed on New Years Eve at the age of 14, Gollum, was the sweetest, most gentle dog I've ever met in my life. For a dog found running the streets with a rope hanging off his neck, and animal control informing me he was quite the difficult boy to catch, he led no charmed life before he came to me. However, this boy was the best and I had not one concern or fear when a neighborhood child asked to pet him, or even walked up to him with open arms. I did speak to them about strange dogs and never ever do that, and always ask, but I always let people pet him.

My 10 yr old GSD female Pele, was put into a shelter after she nipped a kid who rode up fast to her while she was tied up outside on a military housing base. She was purchased overseas by another family and after the nipping incident, even though the MP dismissed the issue and all was fine, the family dropped her in a shelter. We got her because we had experience with the breed, a secure fenced in property with a 6ft. fence, I was home all day with both dogs, and the best part was we had no small kids. My daughter was already out on her own, and my son was 16 when we adopted her and starting his studies in the veterinary assistance field.

When we took both the dogs out, we made very sure to inform the kids that Pele was off limits, and one of us would cross the street with her while the kids gave Gollum his pats and paw shakes. Pele was just fine with that scenario. She doesn't growl or act aggressive off the property on walks, but she has bitten before we got her, and if she did again, that could be her death sentence. I make it very clear she is out to exercise and find people respect that. Plus, for some reason, a lot of people are just plain afraid of her and really only the real GSD lovers wanna pet her, other than kids, hehe. I've no clue why.

We have a neighbor who is an ex cop and he likes that Pele is very protective of my property and will bark along the fenceline if someone gets too close or something odd is going on.. he knows she has kept his property safe a few times too over the years...however he has a 9 yr old grand daughter that thinks its great fun to bark at my dog, previously, dogs... and he let's her, no matter how we've pleaded that she stop. Oh the nightmares he'd have if he saw the claw marks on the fence where Pele had jumped at it after being teased. Now we will not let her out at all if the grandchild is there unless we are right next to her, 6 ft fence or not. Pele has bad hips and if my dog gets hurt because someone can't control their child, well....I'd not take too kindly to that.

Yeah, I feel the guy in the video, and I 100% understand the view a lot of you have disagreeing with his stance too. I've been on both sides at the same time, and it sucks, but such is life. Sadly, as my neighbor has shown me, though I'm sure he thinks there is no harm in a child "playing", we as dog lovers don't quite look at behavior like that as playing. That is where the communication and understanding breakdown occurs. Until it happens to them/you/me... people just won't see the same point of view.

Phew. Wall of text.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I know you probably wanted to save the money...BUT...if you're like me I love buying stuff for the dogs, from training gear to treats. I'll drop $50.00 on the dogs with no problem but a new pair of shoes for me? I'll wait and wait...so congrats on the new gear! 

The only thing I'm wondering about is the 'pink' color you said you ordered.

Wouldn't red or orange be more official looking for a service dog? Those are the colors I usually see on working dogs.






Serbrider said:


> I sure hope it will help.  And she'll look more "official", which, while it's not legally necessary, will hopefully help with the rude crazies.
> 
> And I WAS planning on getting one, was just hoping to wait until she was more grown. Oh well, this one should last her a few months at least.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Great post Wicked Seraphim. Welcome to the board as well.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Interesting point on 'letting go' and good job on getting your dog to the point where he can be safely petted!

BUT....and I know you are a fan of Leerburg information, the question is having a dog that is safe in public is one thing, but 'needing' to let strangers pet your dog is another?

If you know Rocky is safe but maybe doesn't enjoy being petted by strangers why go there? 

Here's an article on Leerburg regarding puppies and I can see how this would carry through to adult dogs as well:



> We get many emails on a weekly basis that deal with problems new puppy owners have as a result of poor socialization. Most of these people feel they have been doing the right thing with their puppies when in fact they have created the problems they face.
> 
> The fact is socialization is one the most misunderstood areas in dog training.
> 
> ...


 complete article linked here- Leerburg | Socializing Puppies

I can see this also being a problem with adult rescues or dogs that had bad experiences as puppies.



Chip18 said:


> Well that is insane. On the other hand if you raise a dog with a hard core "Bubble dog attitude" you have trouble letting it go!
> 
> Three very nice kids asked politely if they could pet Rocky the other day and I said "I'd rather you didn't." He has been proven safe with kids/strangers/people in public but I have trouble letting go of the "Bubble Dog Thing!"
> 
> ...


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I know you probably wanted to save the money...BUT...if you're like me I love buying stuff for the dogs, from training gear to treats. I'll drop $50.00 on the dogs with no problem but a new pair of shoes for me? I'll wait and wait...so congrats on the new gear!
> 
> The only thing I'm wondering about is the 'pink' color you said you ordered.
> 
> Wouldn't red or orange be more official looking for a service dog? Those are the colors I usually see on working dogs.



The "pink" is a light color, very pale. Looks almost white at first glance. And there are no "official" colors for service dogs, apart from in California where orange is reserved for hearing assist dogs.

A lot of service dogs nowadays are in blue or green. But really, I chose pink because it's Arya's "color", it's a pale professional pink (not hot pink), and in the end, it's my choice.

Red might "appear" more official, but it also catches people's eyes more, and I'd prefer a color more likely to blend in with a crowd, not stand out. I will still have the patches, and if I continue to have major problems with the pink, it will be replaced with a black or red to see if that helps, along with the patch that says SERVICE DOG.

And as for cost... I spend so much on my animals' food. They are all raw fed with human grade meats. That adds up. And then several unplanned emergency vet visits, as well as some car trouble in the past two months, just haven't been too motivated to buy a lot of things for a puppy that will quickly outgrow it. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In blue, O.K. I do know that. But usually red, orange and blue/black *tend* to be the most commonly used colors for actual working/service dogs.

I think that's another thing that would help SDs. There should be an official SD color vest/harness established that would make them more easily recognizable to business and the general public. eta- Frankly it's illogical to not have certain set standards amongst official SDs. IMO that's at least *part* (not all mind you) *part* of the reason you guys run into problems with people interfering.

2nd in blue - I wasn't criticizing you, just asking, that's all. :shrug:

Good luck with your new vest, I hope it helps.



Serbrider said:


> The "pink" is a light color, very pale. Looks almost white at first glance. And there are no "official" colors for service dogs, apart from in California where orange is reserved for hearing assist dogs.
> 
> A lot of service dogs nowadays are in blue or green. But really, I chose pink because it's Arya's "color", it's a pale professional pink (not hot pink), and in the end, it's my choice.
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Great post Wicked Seraphim. Welcome to the board as well.


This and Welcome aboard!


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In blue, O.K. I do know that. But usually red, orange and blue/black *tend* to be the most commonly used colors for actual working/service dogs.
> 
> I think that's another thing that would help SDs. There should be an official SD color vest/harness established that would make them more easily recognizable to business and the general public. eta- Frankly it's illogical to not have certain set standards amongst official SDs. IMO that's at least *part* (not all mind you) *part* of the reason you guys run into problems with people interfering.
> 
> ...




I didn't think you were criticizing... So no worries. I'm on a couple service dog groups on Facebook, and this subject of regulating colors, either of specific disabilities get specific colors or "all service dogs get this color", and the overwhelming majority of service dog handlers said they did not want that. Quite a few use "odd" colors like pink, purple, green, etc. Or have a bunch of different colors so their dog wouldn't clash with their own outfits, etc. Or they use school colors if they are in college/high school or are a teacher.

And I totally agree. We don't expect all people to have the solid shiney metal cane, or all people in wheelchairs to have a big red sign on their wheelchair saying "WHEELCHAIR". Service dogs are medical equipment. Yes, they can be more, but first and foremost are medical equipment that assist those with disabilities. So, if we allow people to decorate their other medical equipment, and expect people to not reach over and mess with their medical equipment, why should service dogs be any different?

Yes, you could make the whole argument of "helps with those idiots". Why do we have to cater to the idiots?


I'm sorry, but it is kinda upsetting. My dog, when not working, is my best friend. When she is working, she allows me to work and function in normal society. And I have it easy compared to others. Why should it be made even harder for us? Why should we be limited or unable to even have the same creative license with our "equipment" that others have?





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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, I actually was happy for you because A) it might help and B) I happen to enjoy buying 'dog stuff' myself, hence the 'congrats' and big smile icon.

Wheel chairs and canes, such as the red and white used by the blind btw... are self explanatory, dogs are not. Especially if you are in an area like a public park where a lot of NON service dogs maybe as well.

Now I've been very empathetic in this thread about the problems SD handlers are facing and very much on your side.

However fair is fair and there is not good a reason that SDs shouldn't be clearly identified for the sake of the SD handlers *and* the general public.

Stop signs are red. Caution lights are yellow. Orange is also a cautionary color when travelling through a highway zone under construction, it's the color of the cones/barrels. Blue and black are pretty universal for police.

It's not about catering to idiots in this case it's about making certain objects and or symbols *clear and easy to recognize, even from a distance and of a professional consistent nature*.

I'm surprised this is even a 'debate' amongst SD handlers. She is your best friend whether in her working harness or not. Police have special working harnesses and their dogs are their partners and friends too. 

You can also buy other things to be unique like collars or bandannas and other things.




Serbrider said:


> I didn't think you were criticizing... So no worries. I'm on a couple service dog groups on Facebook, and this subject of regulating colors, either of specific disabilities get specific colors or "all service dogs get this color", and the overwhelming majority of service dog handlers said they did not want that. Quite a few use "odd" colors like pink, purple, green, etc. Or have a bunch of different colors so their dog wouldn't clash with their own outfits, etc. Or they use school colors if they are in college/high school or are a teacher.
> 
> And I totally agree. We don't expect all people to have the solid shiney metal cane, or all people in wheelchairs to have a big red sign on their wheelchair saying "WHEELCHAIR". Service dogs are medical equipment. Yes, they can be more, but first and foremost are medical equipment that assist those with disabilities. So, if we allow people to decorate their other medical equipment, and expect people to not reach over and mess with their medical equipment, why should service dogs be any different?
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

One more thought on this I.D. situation. 

You are being given very special rights to take your dog places most of us can not. 

So it's a small sacrifice, to be required to have some sort of special I.D., vest color or something to help make the process of having a SD in public places where dogs are not normally allowed more organized, recognizable and efficient process for all concerned. Including the SD handlers themselves. 

It also would boost the 'professional image' of service dogs IMO. Just as it does for SAR dogs and Police K9s. A working uniform so to speak.


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## Wicked Seraphim (May 17, 2014)

Thank you, Gwenhwyfair and Chip!


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> One more thought on this I.D. situation.
> 
> You are being given very special rights to take your dog places most of us can not.
> 
> ...


It is not the job of the person with the disability to prove to you that they are disabled and need the dog. That is between them and their health professional. Why make it complicated? Why not just do some PSAs that tell the public to not touch other people's dogs? Why should those who need those dogs work even harder to make everyone else comfortable?

But... in blue. You talk about these "special rights" that we are given. Yes, they are rights. NOT to be able to take our pet dogs everywhere, but to be able to get out in public and try to function like you do and take for granted. As I have said, my disability is mild compared to others. And because of that, most of my need is at home. Not in public, so her public access will be minimal, only if things are really bad and I'm at the point where I can't safely go out in public without her.

But those dogs give people the freedom to be able to actually go to that store at all. Not "ooh, look, I get to bring my dog to a store!". Without that dog, going to that store would either be a day long extremely difficult task, or something they couldn't do without a close family member watching them the entire time. But with the dog assisting them, they have that freedom.

And then on top of that, the struggle that we/they already have in GETTING the dog, then TRAINING the dog (whether through a program or owner trained), we have to supply special identification or have our dogs wear a very specific color/type of vest (which, if it gets down to that specific, prices will skyrocket, just the nature of supply and demand) just so YOU (a casual bystander, not a business owner, public transportation official, or other official individual who has legal rights to request some "proof" of validity) can know whether or not they are a service dog and can recognize that this person can't function without it? That you shouldn't pet it just because it doesn't have a red/orange vest with "SERVICE DOG FOR _________, DO NOT TOUCH" on it?

Yes, those who have service dogs will often use vests and patches to make it easier... but that's a CHOICE of ours to do, not an expectation for others to have.

So, unless the federal government begins mandating specific colors/vests/IDs for service dogs and their handlers (which I know a whole lot of service dog handlers will fight tooth and nail), we will express our rights to creative expression. On both ourselves and our canine extensions.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I would be very happy if I could earn the right to take my dog more places. I would happily have him wear a vest showing I have the right to do so.

*This really is NOT a moral hazard we're talking about here!!*

People with service dogs having to forgo college logos on their dog's working vest really isn't discrimination! Good grief it's not that BIG of a deal!

Holy moly, when I think about the things people have gone through in life get that indignant about not having college logo chatzskis on a dog really is pretty darn unimportant. Man maybe this is a generational thing but stuff like this didn't use to rank so high in importance. 

Do you ever think about the positives? Like you would be bothered much less? Employees of companies would have an easier time of knowing legit SDs. That you're helping set the general public up to succeed when around SD, so those who just don't know better will learn? It presents SDs in a more serious and responsible light.

The down side here is having little smiley faces and college logos and yes, colorful harnesses, is it makes it that much harder for businesses to indentify legit SDs and more people will just 'fake it'. Then when more people see dogs lifting their leg and whizzing on the bread in the grocery store this indignation about having colorful SD décor won't matter anymore.

Further what makes you think I haven't suffered with problems in my life where I would have like to have the support of a dog? It wasn't allowed back then so really, you should be appreciative.

Jeeze. 

Let's just say my empathy went down a notch or two today.






Serbrider said:


> It is not the job of the person with the disability to prove to you that they are disabled and need the dog. That is between them and their health professional. Why make it complicated? Why not just do some PSAs that tell the public to not touch other people's dogs? Why should those who need those dogs work even harder to make everyone else comfortable?
> 
> But... in blue. You talk about these "special rights" that we are given. Yes, they are rights. NOT to be able to take our pet dogs everywhere, but to be able to get out in public and try to function like you do and take for granted. As I have said, my disability is mild compared to others. And because of that, most of my need is at home. Not in public, so her public access will be minimal, only if things are really bad and I'm at the point where I can't safely go out in public without her.
> 
> ...


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I would be very happy if I could earn the right to take my dog more places. I would happily have him wear a vest showing I have the right to do so.
> 
> *This really is NOT a moral hazard we're talking about here!!*
> 
> ...


It has nothing to do with the "college chatzkies". It has to do with the service dogs themselves. People with service dogs have it hard enough. To add the necessary vests (if they are not provided free of charge, and you have to buy them, as it is now), on top of a buttload of training and laws and people being idiots all around you... it's just one more thing to worry about.

Service dogs aren't just there for support. They aren't there because people want their dogs close to them because they feel bad. They are there to do a necessary task for their handlers so their handlers can work through their disability.

And I'm sorry for anything you have gone through. I really am. But you still don't seem to be getting it.

I don't have my dog because I want my dog with me. If I had to choose between having my dog and my disability and having no rights to even bring my dog to public parks where dogs are WELCOME if I didn't have this... I would very willingly give up the "right" to take my dog anywhere.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the appearance apart from just adding one more hoop to jump through with what is already extremely difficult.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I read that and kept it together, the first time.



Really? Matching outfits? 

Then you call people who approach a dog all decked out in *un*professional gear idiots?

SMH.

down three notches for extreme unfairness.




Serbrider said:


> I didn't think you were criticizing... So no worries. I'm on a couple service dog groups on Facebook, and this subject of regulating colors, either of specific disabilities get specific colors or "all service dogs get this color", and the overwhelming majority of service dog handlers said they did not want that. Quite a few use "odd" colors like pink, purple, green, etc. *Or have a bunch of different colors so their dog wouldn't clash with their own outfits, etc. Or they use school colors if they are in college/high school or are a teacher.
> *
> <snipped>
> 
> ...


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I read that and kept it together, the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How on earth is using school colors being unprofessional? Or using a black vest because it goes with their outfit, or a green one on St. Patrick's day? How on earth is that being unprofessional? That's like saying anyone who uses anything other than a black tie is being unprofessional.

I said NOTHING about special cutsie patches or stars or hearts or whatever else you seem to be implying. But having say... 5 or 6 different cape vests in a few different colors, all with the same velcro patches of "DO NOT PET" or "SERVICE DOG", how on earth is that unprofessional and inviting people to come pet and cuddle with them?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and I was trying to be nice. Glad that you got a vest.  See my post in the other thread, "SD's in the grocery store", more on topic.

When I picked out a vest for Ilda, because I needed people to stop mobbing her when she was a puppy, I would have liked to get a different color vest then black/blue. I picked that vest because it was, practical and it worked.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Matching outfits? Really?

Highschool and college colors? 

You wrote that to support your reasons. 

You know what, like I said not much sympathy here and it's getting off topic.

I hope your vest does help. Good luck to ya.



Serbrider said:


> How on earth is using school colors being unprofessional? Or using a black vest because it goes with their outfit, or a green one on St. Patrick's day? How on earth is that being unprofessional? That's like saying anyone who uses anything other than a black tie is being unprofessional.
> 
> I said NOTHING about special cutsie patches or stars or hearts or whatever else you seem to be implying. But having say... 5 or 6 different cape vests in a few different colors, all with the same velcro patches of "DO NOT PET" or "SERVICE DOG", how on earth is that unprofessional and inviting people to come pet and cuddle with them?


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

So people who have disabilities and use a dog are not allowed to be fashionable if they want because it's not "practical" according to you? Maybe it's not as much of a "right"... but really? What else are they not allowed to do?

There are reasons that things are in different colors. Because people don't like to be shoved into a little box and told to stay there, just because it makes the rest of the world more comfortable.

And if that makes me and quite a few other SD handlers shallow and self centered, then so be it. 


We will have to agree to disagree on this I guess. Have a good one.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well , since I'm a practical, boring, type who just wants to see fairness and consistency and professionalism with regard to service dogs, you sure as heck did not do yourself or other handlers a favor IMO. That's for sure.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Discussing this thread with other service dog handlers on facebook (who have had service dogs for a lot longer than I have as well as train them for others), and shared the link to this and everything else.

So far nobody has disagreed with me... so... yeah. Maybe I'm just hanging out with the wrong group of handlers. *shrug*


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Argumentum ad populum.

That's fine. Knock yourselves out if having "matching outfits" with your service dogs is more important then helping prevent fakers and promoting service dogs in a more serious and professional light that's your prerogative

You just can't complain as much about people who misunderstand when they see a dog decked out in bright friendly colors or college related things in a college town and such...because that's really unfair.

Further the people I hang out with probably would tend to agree with me that it makes sense to have some form of consistent I.D. They're older and more practical like me. 

But...like I said. I hope your vest helps. 






Serbrider said:


> Discussing this thread with other service dog handlers on facebook (who have had service dogs for a lot longer than I have as well as train them for others), and shared the link to this and everything else.
> 
> So far nobody has disagreed with me... so... yeah. Maybe I'm just hanging out with the wrong group of handlers. *shrug*


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dont service dogs come with specific special harnessess? The ones i have seen wear the standard service harness. I have seen them in grocery stores, I saw a absolutely knock out poodle in the food court at the mall the other day.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Argumentum ad populum.
> 
> That's fine. Knock yourselves out if having "matching outfits" with your service dogs is more important then helping prevent fakers and promoting service dogs in a more serious and professional light that's your prerogative
> 
> ...


Just so I can get the picture of what you are really suggesting (because maybe I'm confused). Unless you are talking about a government issued ID and/or vest with photo and microchip identification for your service dog, how will it stop fakers? That is the ONLY reasonable method of "standardization" that will make it extremely difficult for people to not be able to fake. Not "use a red or black "professional looking" vest and have an ID", which is what so many people do when they are faking, because they think that vest or ID makes them invincible.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Dont service dogs come with specific special harnessess? The ones i have seen wear the standard service harness. I have seen them in grocery stores, I saw a absolutely knock out poodle in the food court at the mall the other day.


Unless you get a service dog from a specific organization, they don't "come" with anything.

And unless you are in specific states where colors are set aside for service dogs, there is no federal regulation on types of harnesses or vests or anything.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> It has nothing to do with the "college chatzkies". It has to do with the service dogs themselves. People with service dogs have it hard enough. To add the necessary vests (if they are not provided free of charge, and you have to buy them, as it is now), on top of a buttload of training and laws and people being idiots all around you... it's just one more thing to worry about.
> 
> Service dogs aren't just there for support. They aren't there because people want their dogs close to them because they feel bad. They are there to do a necessary task for their handlers so their handlers can work through their disability.
> 
> ...


Wow, just wow.

In order to park in a handicap stall, people must apply for a handicap placard or plate. They must prove they need one and *display it*!
Blind persons carry a red and white cane *to alert people. *Seeing eye dogs wear *standardized equipment.*

I suffer from something that is aggravated by people mauling my PET! But it is not ok for me to be rude about it apparently. 

I would think that most people who ligit need service dogs would welcome anything that made it *less* difficult for them. I would also think that they would be the most offended at 'fakers' and would be lining up to stop it, and you are being rude to someone who has stated repeatedly that they support your need for one? A standardized, recognizable harness or vest is a hardship for you? Sorry, you lost me there.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm not sure to what level it should go. 

BUT- some kind of I.D. that's hard to fake and a certain color designation on the leash, harness or collar and it needs to be consistent and 'hard' to fake.

I'd be open to practical solutions. I also won't let perfection be the enemy of good.

What I object to, for YOUR sake really because it's not my problem, is not having any consistency AT ALL.

That just blows my little Midwestern, pragmatic, my parents survived the depression, everything should be organized and practical mind.

What can I say? 




Serbrider said:


> Just so I can get the picture of what you are really suggesting (because maybe I'm confused). Unless you are talking about a government issued ID and/or vest with photo and microchip identification for your service dog, how will it stop fakers? That is the ONLY reasonable method of "standardization" that will make it extremely difficult for people to not be able to fake. Not "use a red or black "professional looking" vest and have an ID", which is what so many people do when they are faking, because they think that vest or ID makes them invincible.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Serbrider said:


> Unless you get a service dog from a specific organization, they don't "come" with anything.
> 
> And unless you are in specific states where colors are set aside for service dogs, there is no federal regulation on types of harnesses or vests or anything.


Cant you order a specific vest off of ebay?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't know that SDs should need anything really specific though (unless it's needed by the handler for some reason)? Just something to ID it easily as a legit SD.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

A standardized, recognizable harness or vest is NOT the issue here. The issue is that people expect it, but then expect the service dog handler to buy it themselves. Not all people who have service dogs are rolling in cash. Most actually struggle because of their disability. Which is why there is no mandate on whether or not a service dog needs to wear anything at all but a collar and leash.

If people and the government wish to standardize it, then standardize it. Like the optional orange for hearing assist dogs, or in some states, for all service dogs. If that was a "thing" in my state (Texas), then I would probably get orange. But it's not. And so, there is absolutely no difference between a purple or a red vest. So I got a pink one.

Handicap placards are standardized. But I've seen people decorate around them with stuff and nobody makes a fuss. The red/white canes are standardized, but not every blind person has to have them.

It is not the standardization of an idea that is upsetting. It's the REQUIREMENT of said standardization. If someone with a service dog who is a high school teacher at a school whose colors are green and white, she should have the right to be able to use those colors in a vest if she wants, and not lose her right to have her service dog. The standardized colors of orange or the government issued vest would still be available, but not REQUIRED.

That is all I'm trying to say. Obviously not coming out quite right... but that's what it is.

Yes, having that red and white cane might make it "easier" for some. For others it makes them stand out in ways they do not want, and so they go with a different colored tool. They aren't REQUIRED to use it just because they are blind and need a stick to help them get around.

You can have standardized equipment, and I think you should for a lot of things. But it shouldn't be mandatory.

In the case of handicapped parking spaces... it's not really the same. It stays in your car, you can even hide it most of the time if you don't want to look at it. You have your dog with you most places if not everywhere. Having a government issued ID might be in order, and perhaps an optional standardized piece of equipment, but not something required.


ETA: As for the equipment, it's really only if you need a guide dog or mobility that you have specialized harnesses.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't know that SDs should need anything really specific though (unless it's needed by the handler for some reason)? Just something to ID it easily as a legit SD.


The poodle was wearing your standard fare "working do not pet" harness. Or something of that nature.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It'll may well end up being mandatory based on the stories we're hearing about fakers.

I don't have a 'dog in this fight' as they say, so if something brews up because a 'faker' dog acts out at a big company and they push to make more regulations, Oh well. :shrug: I don't care.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It'll may well end up being mandatory based on the stories we're hearing about fakers.
> 
> I don't have a 'dog in this fight' as they say, so if something brews up because a 'faker' dog acts out at a big company and they push to make more regulations, Oh well. :shrug: I don't care.


If you don't care... why do you keep pushing it? I'm sorry, but as you KEEP saying, it doesn't apply to you. As it stands, there is very little standardization. Either mandatory or optional. So, apart from continuing to educate people on ADA laws and what happens to those who commit disability fraud, and what the rights are of both the handlers and the businesses involved, why make such a big deal over whether my dog wears a red harness or a pink one?


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Oh, and back on topic. Regardless of the size, shape, color, harness, collar, or anything of the dog in question... if it is not yours and you have not been given permission to touch (whether verbal or through written consent on a vest or collar), DON'T PET THE DANG DOG!


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## kmbjbb (Dec 4, 2013)

Speaking for myself, I have a Service Dog Candidate who also happens to be a GSD.

To be a service dog, there is a lot of training involved. Very few states have color requirements for vests and such. Also, the ADA does state that vests are not required.

Now, going back to myself, I am 100 % total deaf. IF Piper works out and when training is done, she will be a hearing assistance dog. Orange was the most recognized color for hearing dogs. Go figure. Orange is also worn by hunters for safety. ""Don't Shoot the Orange!!" Yes, Piper will be in orange, but not because it's the recognized color. I'm doing it because when I did not know all I needed to know, it was chosen for me by someone who was supposed to help me with a previous dog. She said I HAD to have orange. Glad I checked both Federal and State (Florida) law. Nope, don't have to have it. I can't afford to get a whole new set of equipment and since Piper is just a tad smaller than previous dog, it all fits.

There is a full debate on Federal certification and such for Service Dogs. Big problem is, who would do the certifying? Yes, there are program dogs that get their equipment and cute little cards and such. Well, that's fine and good, but those of us, who owner train, don't have that. Some of us (me included) use some guidelines as to what is entailed in the training. Other's don't care, they pass first level obedience and slap a vest on and say, "I have a service dog now". It's people like that that are making this so hard for those of us who are working hard to make sure we do the training.

Personally, I carry cards that have the ADA law on them and the basic info for the DOJ. If asked, in certain cases, I will show a card I have with Piper's picture that has her shot records. I also have "joke" cards that I got from a forum that are just for those people who think it's cute to pet the service dog. "Just For You!" 

It does not matter what patches are on the vest or harness, there will be "drive by petters and huggers". Some people just have no brains. They see a dog, wearing or not wearing a vest, but are leashed to a person who either has a visible or invisible need for that service dog. They then think either that handler can't see, or the handler is training for an agency. When I did a public access outing with Piper, just outside at the library, I had so many people ask if I was puppy raising for the police department. Uh, no - she's mine.

Ah well - I am off my soapbox for now.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First because I was astounded by your reasons for no standardized vests/gear

Then because I was hoping to help you understand the positive aspects of some sort of standardized gear.

Now I just realize you want to eat your cake and keep it too. You want service dogs to be recognized, taken seriously and treated with respect at the same time arguing for the right to have outfits that don't clash?

I also won't be very sympathetic if a little girl rushes up and hugs your dog because it's wearing an attractive color, pink, (not common to a warning or working color) to her and her parents don't catch on fast enough. I'll understand their POV, much better now.

:shrug:





Serbrider said:


> If you don't care... why do you keep pushing it? I'm sorry, but as you KEEP saying, it doesn't apply to you. As it stands, there is very little standardization. Either mandatory or optional. So, apart from continuing to educate people on ADA laws and what happens to those who commit disability fraud, and what the rights are of both the handlers and the businesses involved, why make such a big deal over whether my dog wears a red harness or a pink one?


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I honestly see both sides of this... I, like everyone else, hate to be told what to do, so if I HAD to have a green vest for my dog, id call it stupid. But It would also be nice to have everyone wearing the same vest and easily spot out a BSer, both sides are right. It would be a hassle, and would be nice. Personally ours is all green, with a breathable material, and when buying, the only color I didn't want was blue (because if another person calls her a boy with her pink collar and pink leash I'll go insane). At the end of the day, all you can do is tell on people who look suspicious, don't hesitate to ask what it does, And most importantly, if the dog is small than a cat, tell someone in charge. 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm not asking for sympathy. I don't want it. You can have it and take it and do whatever you want with it. And there's a HUGE difference between a misunderstanding little girl who can't yet read giving my dog a hug and a 10 year old boy who is grabbing my dog's tail and ears, or a full grown adult grabbing the dog and petting it all over. Color is insignificant. It could be purple, or blue, or black, and those idiots will still be ignoring the big letters saying "DON'T TOUCH" and grabbing my dog. THOSE are the people I'm upset at. Not the little girl who would probably run for the cute doggie whether it was in pink or red.

But again, how does a well trained service dog in a light pink vest elicit any less respect than one in a red or blue vest? How is that any less professional?

THIS is the vest I'm getting: http://www.k9harness.com/content/im...-powerharness-size-0-pink-16idc-pn-0_300.jpeg


Not this: http://kingsembroidery.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/3225724/4189447_orig.jpg


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> I honestly see both sides of this... I, like everyone else, hate to be told what to do, so if I HAD to have a green vest for my dog, id call it stupid. But It would also be nice to have everyone wearing the same vest and easily spot out a BSer, both sides are right. It would be a hassle, and would be nice. Personally ours is all green, with a breathable material, and when buying, the only color I didn't want was blue (because if another person calls her a boy with her pink collar and pink leash I'll go insane). At the end of the day, all you can do is tell on people who look suspicious, don't hesitate to ask what it does, And most importantly, if the dog is small than a cat, tell someone in charge.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


And I totally get the idea that it might help us spot out the BSer... but unless it was something that is prescription only and regulated by the government like money or ID cards or something like that, people will just choose those colors and fake it. Yes, it's easier right now because there aren't those mandates. But at the same time, I just don't see how, unless it was something specifically passed out by the government through doctor prescription, can stop fakers.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

That's what I'm under the impression, we're talking about, a government color, like 'MERICA blue. Maybe it's like the DMV (stay with me here) you get a doctors prescription, and maybe they add it to your drivers license? Such as "blood donor, motorcycle grade, SD, eye glasses" something easy and official. Where it's just a glance at your ID, sure people will people still fake that, but once your faking it at that level, you can't stop them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Holy crap!! Sorry if me saying I had seen a Blue harness fed into the "new" line of craziness! 

Serbrider, don't know if you were ticked off or not when you posted, but thank you for the insight into some of the finer details of service dogs and the requirements and rule and such. 

I 'm a "Personnel Care Assistant" myself so the "Dog I have in this fight"..is my "empathy" for others! 

I do have trouble with the "morons have the "right" to get in my dogs face point of view but whatever.

As I said on another thread... I should start a thread "My dog has Four legs and a tail...do I have a problem!?"


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> That's what I'm under the impression, we're talking about, a government color, like 'MERICA blue. Maybe it's like the DMV (stay with me here) you get a doctors prescription, and maybe they add it to your drivers license? Such as "blood donor, motorcycle grade, SD, eye glasses" something easy and official. Where it's just a glance at your ID, sure people will people still fake that, but once your faking it at that level, you can't stop them.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


Something like that, on your driver's license might be a good way to do it. Simple, very hard to fake... still gives people freedom to not have to use a particular vest that may irritate the dog's skin/you don't like the look of, etc. And people can ask for your driver's license to make sure you are legally able to have the dog... vs the whole he say she say "that vest looks more official than that" that it is is now.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Your pink equipment sounds great. Please post pics of Arya wearing it.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> Something like that, on your driver's license might be a good way to do it. Simple, very hard to fake... still gives people freedom to not have to use a particular vest that may irritate the dog's skin/you don't like the look of, etc. And people can ask for your driver's license to make sure you are legally able to have the dog... vs the whole he say she say "that vest looks more official than that" that it is is now.



It's decided, now we just have to change federal law, easy.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Holy crap!! Sorry if me saying I had seen a Blue harness fed into the "new" line of craziness!
> 
> Serbrider, don't know if you were ticked off or not when you posted, but thank you for the insight into some of the finer details of service dogs and the requirements and rule and such.
> 
> ...


lol, sorry. I was a little ticked off. I had my heart set on the pink because that's my girl's color. We were getting the vest more for the big things on the side that will say "DON'T TOUCH" and "IN TRAINING"/"SERVICE DOG"... not because I thought pink was an amazing color that would show how we were so professional.

And I tend to get a little touchie when people seem to assume that all I care about are appearances... but I do feel as though we live in a nation where we are supposed to be getting past appearances. The appearance of skin color, the color/type of your clothes, etc. And my service dog is so close to me... there are times where she's almost a part of me... and to be told that in order to have her continue to be a part of me and help me function in society like a "normal" person, I have to use a particular color/type of vest that either I think is ugly or does bad things to her skin... just annoys me. 

I meant no offense to anyone, and I do get where Gwen is coming from in regards to making things simple... but people aren't simple... and I don't think that people should be shoved into a box physically, creatively, or anything, just because of their limitations...

And the fact that it's a living breathing dog that a lot of other people have too...  Adds a whole 'nother dimension to it. :crazy:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It could be state level but the ADA is a federal law, no? 

In blue :thumbup:




Thewretched said:


> That's what I'm under the impression, we're talking about, a government color, like 'MERICA blue. Maybe it's like the DMV (stay with me here) you get a doctors prescription, and maybe they add it to your drivers license? Such as "blood donor, motorcycle grade, SD, eye glasses" something easy and official. Where it's just a glance at your ID, sure people will people still fake that, but once your faking it at that level, you can't stop them.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> It's decided, now we just have to change federal law, easy.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


Hahahahahahaha... :rofl:

Got any more jokes??? 

And glowingtoadfly... I plan on it.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

A German and a pollock walk into a bar... 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> A German and a pollock walk into a bar...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


On another forum I'm on there's a "like" button. I wish there was one here.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Soooooo since the vast majority of people do NOT have service dogs, but somewhat in the same general vein regarding the video.....

I've mentioned this idea before (actually I was chatting with two other members from Germany about this, they mentioned how people must pass OB tests and get a license) wouldn't it be a good, positive thing if people took OB tests (standardized of course  ) and if they pass they get an I.D. that allows them to take their dogs more places?

It would encourage more people to train and more people to understand training of ALL dogs.

People who don't want to take the test don't have to, they just won't have the same privileges as those who take the test. It's something that would have to be earned.

I would happily put ANY color vest, or tag, or proof to be able to go more places with my dogs, legally. 

I think sometimes we tend to be so punitive rather then try to incentivize people to achieve goals with their dogs. 

Anyhoo, when I mentioned this idea before quite a few people here liked the idea. Just thought I'd throw it out again for those who didn't see that thread back when....


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Id love one too, oh well, at least the compliments will always outweigh to bad people that we come across. And at the end of the day, no ones going to raise their voice to someone with perfectly trained GSD. At least no one with sense. Their allowed to guard you if someone invades your personal space. 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I would be all for something like that if businesses were willing to accept it. Which I think a lot would. The tests would have to be pretty rigorous though IMO, not just a simple CGC type test.

But yeah... I think that would be nice. Rude dogs make me want to grab the leash from the owners and teach them some manners. I obviously don't... but... yeah.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Like I said, the ADA is federal law. So yeah, actually it wouldn't be *that* hard to amend it. 



Thewretched said:


> It's decided, now we just have to change federal law, easy.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Like I said, the ADA is federal law. So yeah, actually it wouldn't be *that* hard to amend it.



Change.org, let's go!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Glad you like the idea!

I wish Mrs K. was still a member, she was explaining how it is done in Germany (TW do you know by chance?)

She did say it varied by state, but basically it's like the IPO BH test (traffic test and such, no protection or tracking). You get a license when you pass.

It was noted that more people had the freedom to bring their dogs more places in Europe and that was part of the reason.

I think this would be good for SD owners too, as there would be more mutual support in training and such. 



Serbrider said:


> I would be all for something like that if businesses were willing to accept it. Which I think a lot would. The tests would have to be pretty rigorous though IMO, not just a simple CGC type test.
> 
> But yeah... I think that would be nice. Rude dogs make me want to grab the leash from the owners and teach them some manners. I obviously don't... but... yeah.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In the U.S. writing letters and calling your congress critters is more effective.

With people writing in they changed the law about military dogs being designated as 'equipment'. 

So it can and does happen if enough people write and call their legislators.

We recently got some laws regarding dogs changed in our county and it took just a few meetings and letters and petitions. Granted that was local.

My point is, please don't be too cynical(?) it does and can happen.



Thewretched said:


> Change.org, let's go!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I tried to see who that was but they got banned? I've heard about it but I never looked into SD when I was that young, looks like Berlin works that way, I trust anything made in Germany, rules included


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

(in blue) LOL! 

It's NOT just for service dogs though. According to Mrs K (yes banned) it was just to get a general type of license.

BUT the kicker is that the dogs proved they were well enough trained and safe in public, therefore it followed that because the dogs were 'proofed' in public settings they are freer to be taken in more public places.

IMO we get it so backwards here sometimes. We'd rather hold everyone accountable for the lowest common denominators rather then encourage and reward those who take the time to train.

I can see how this would help dogs and dog owners in many ways...insurance rates going down might be another benefit...





Thewretched said:


> I tried to see who that was but they got banned? I've heard about it but I never looked into SD when I was that young, looks like Berlin works that way, I trust anything made in Germany, rules included
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In the U.S. writing letters and calling your congress critters is more effective.
> 
> With people writing in they changed the law about military dogs being designated as 'equipment'.
> 
> ...


I guess I was thinking about much larger amendments and bills and stuff, which is why I thought it was extremely difficult.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kmbjbb said:


> "drive by petters and huggers". .


Oh no yet "another phrase I have to use!!!! 

Thank you for the insight!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Since SDs are under a section of the federal law, ADA, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, the hard part would be figuring out the best way to have the dogs I.Ds standardized. That should be sorted out by people who work with, in and/or are disabled and using SDs. 

If they can't make money off of not doing it or make it a partisan thing, if that's what the public wanted it could be done, probably without *too* much debate/pushback/delay.

(*too* being somewhat relative I admit,  but really I was signing petitions and calling about the military dogs and where there's a will, there's a way!)



Serbrider said:


> I guess I was thinking about much larger amendments and bills and stuff, which is why I thought it was extremely difficult.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I gotta run...but really for SDs *and* just keeping people away from our dogs in general, I think this motif would work much better then any color.....


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I think a lot of people want to fulfill themselves through your dog. They don't stop to think that the dog may not want you to pet them, or it's not appropriate at the time. What's more annoying is parents who let their kids run up to your dog while they laugh. In that case, I just remove the dog from the situation.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I gotta run...but really for SDs *and* just keeping people away from our dogs in general, I think this motif would work much better then any color.....


Yeah that'll help with the perception of the breed......


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually, talk with people who have working service dogs. Even when the dogs have vests on saying the 'please do not pet', 'working service dog' people try to interfere.
> 
> Hang out with some service dog owners, you'll hear a lot of examples of this :



Fiona, my SD, has a patch on her vest that says "ask to pet me". People have walked up to Fiona and as petting her head asked Fiona ... Can I pet you? Argghhh!


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Cheyanna said:


> Fiona, my SD, has a patch on her vest that says "ask to pet me". People have walked up to Fiona and as petting her head asked Fiona ... Can I pet you? Argghhh!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



That's a brave thing to have on a SD vest! How many times do people want to pet it, out of curiosity.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*sigh*. :headbang:


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Cheyanna said:


> Fiona, my SD, has a patch on her vest that says "ask to pet me". People have walked up to Fiona and as petting her head asked Fiona ... Can I pet you? Argghhh!


There are a lot of really bright people in this world that are capable of walking and talking at the same time...


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## Dr. Paul G. tes (May 20, 2014)

Actually, it *IS* a big deal!

The Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law.

I am disabled, but I have rights. All of you folks are talking about What Color the signage should be, and what we have to do to segregate out the disabled. Not one single person here is thinking how this conversation actually sounds to to someone who *IS* disabled.

--- "Why not make a regulation that accommodations be made at the back of every bus?"

--- "We could have a special section in the back of restaurants, that way 'Normal people' wont see the dog and be forced to pet it or feed it from their plates."

--- "Why not make it a bright Yellow Star and force every disabled person to wear one on their left sleeve or on an armband on their left arm."

--- "How about we force them to register and put their registration number on a tattoo on their right forearm?"

Here's an Idea. How about you actually go and read the law then make sure you teach your own kids the basic SAFETY TIP that they should NEVER APPROACH A STRANGE DOG, EVER!

If you absolutely MUST interfere with someone else's lives, then how about you petition your local school board to start to equate "Dog" with "Disability" rather than "Dog = Fido in the back yard" which is how all of you are thinking.

My life is already hard enough with my military service related disabilities. I don't need this added to it...

- Dr. Paul G. Coates, PhD. US Navy, Retired.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Since SDs are under a section of the federal law, ADA, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, the hard part would be figuring out the best way to have the dogs I.Ds standardized. That should be sorted out by people who work with, in and/or are disabled and using SDs.
> 
> If they can't make money off of not doing it or make it a partisan thing, if that's what the public wanted it could be done, probably without *too* much debate/pushback/delay.
> 
> (*too* being somewhat relative I admit,  but really I was signing petitions and calling about the military dogs and where there's a will, there's a way!)


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Dr. Paul G. tes said:


> Actually, it *IS* a big deal!
> 
> The Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law.
> 
> ...


Wow Paul take it easy no one even came close to suggesting all of that.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

A lot of us have SDs ourselves in this conversation. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Someone from facebook I presume.

This thread really wasn't meant to be about the rights of disabled persons.

Also pseudo swearing is not allowed on this board "professor". I'm sure with your education you are much better able to make your point,

There is a more appropriate thread going right now but the discussion pertains to Service Dogs, not civil rights as a whole since that treads into the political arena.






Dr. Paul G. tes said:


> Actually, it *IS* a big deal!
> 
> The Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law.
> 
> ...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Dr. Paul G. tes said:


> Actually, it *IS* a big deal!
> 
> The Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law.
> 
> ...


thank you for your service shipmate!!!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd also like to point out why this all started. Because I was happy and congratulated someone with a service dog getting a vest.

And I dared to ask a question about why a pink vest.

You know what, I have worked VERY hard all my adult life. Have been a law abiding contributing TAX paying small business owner. I'm sick and tired of being brow beaten for asking just for a little bit of empathy for the other side of the equation here!!! No one lives as an island. NO ONE.

We have to work together, appreciate what everyone brings to the table, meet in the middle and compromise.

Instead it's "my way or the highway" and I am sick to death of it.

At this point I have completely changed my view about SD owners. 




Gwenhwyfair said:


> I know you probably wanted to save the money...BUT...if you're like me I love buying stuff for the dogs, from training gear to treats. I'll drop $50.00 on the dogs with no problem but a new pair of shoes for me? I'll wait and wait...so congrats on the new gear!
> 
> The only thing I'm wondering about is the 'pink' color you said you ordered.
> 
> Wouldn't red or orange be more official looking for a service dog? Those are the colors I usually see on working dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Respectfully,

The Proletariat.


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## Dr. Paul G. tes (May 20, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Someone from facebook I presume.
> 
> This thread really wasn't meant to be about the rights of disabled persons.
> 
> ...


Do not worry, I never do ANYTHING half way. There was no pseudo anything when I hit that button. The web site software censored me, and then I presume a moderator edited me. What you see now was the nice (sic) version of what I typed.

Oh? We're NOT talking about the civil rights of the disabled? What are we talking about?

--- Vests and Patches and other form of "Mandatory Garments" and "Uniform Colors" for people who are different in some way.

--- Educating people who are different in some way about how THEY should act and behave and what they should wear and by logical extension, what they should say or even THINK.

I personally love German Shepherds. I love my Service Dog, I do "tell" people that she is a service dog IF they ask when I am out in public, but most of the time I get comments like "She's Beautiful." and I say quickly "Thank You." and then give my SD the command 'Laufen' ('Walk on') ... but the suggestions coming out of this thread on this subject are right out of 1938 Berlin.

How about we not try to dictate how the Disabled are to act, or what they wear, but instead, for the people here who made one of these "trying to be helpful but said something totally offensive and discriminatory" suggestions: try and look at it in another way...



> Try having this conversation the next time you are approached while you are being accompanied by your Service Dog in public.
> 
> "Before you can pet (her/him) I have to ask you a question, ok?
> 
> ...


Kids in grade school notice other kids with glasses, with wheelchairs, with prosthetic limbs, but they are taught early on that segregating or picking on or even stareing at that other child who is (and I use the P.C. term they use in schools) "Differently Abled" is unacceptable, by teachers and even other students.

My experiment above is to see how viral the circle of reinforcement of this "behavior modification training" is in the general public, by equating the Service Dog mentally with "Disability" instead of with "Fido in the back yard" which is what most people have experience with.

-DrPaul


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here ya go "Professor Paul".

This is what all the brew-ha-ha is about.

Being a man of higher learning I'm sure you can agree that outfits clashing with a working dog gear is real problem.

Civil rights in the modern age. I'm sure Dr. Martin Luther King would approve. :crazy:

The thing is, I was nice about that comment at first. Didn't really highlight how ridiculous it is and until I get attacked and someone swearing a blue streak in his very first post on this board. 

btw, in case you didn't notice your pseudo swearing was edited by a moderator. 

FWIW some business owners are thinking a way to resolve this is to video anyone who comes in with a dog. That way if the dog fails (that means doesn't display proper OB) the poor business owner will have some objective evidence with which to protect himself from frivolous law suits.






Serbrider said:


> I didn't think you were criticizing... So no worries. I'm on a couple service dog groups on Facebook, and this subject of regulating colors, either of specific disabilities get specific colors or "all service dogs get this color", and the overwhelming majority of service dog handlers said they did not want that. Quite a few use "odd" colors like pink, purple, green, etc. Or have a bunch of different colors so their dog wouldn't clash with their own outfits, etc. Or they use school colors if they are in college/high school or are a teacher.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You and your facebook friend have certainly converted me from an advocate to an adversary on this topic. 

So go ahead, keep swearing, demeaning and pontificating, it just makes me all the more convinced that the service dog community is unprofessional, not serious, unfairly demanding and uncaring about working with others to achieve common goals.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, rather then blasting on to this board and trying to throw your weight around,  Paul you might want to look at the foundations of the argument here.

Since you're a PhD I'm assuming you know an argument to authority is a fallacy but then given the swearing and concern for matching outfits, maybe not. Perhaps you should be lecturing your facebook service dog peeps on the importance of how serious service dogs should be treated, by everyone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Aw man, Paul logged off.

I was hoping he would edumicate me on how this is such an important civil right:



> Quite a few use "odd" colors like pink, purple, green, etc. Or have a bunch of different colors so their dog wouldn't clash with their own outfits, etc. Or they use school colors if they are in college/high school or are a teacher.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have always been taught to leave service dogs alone, as they are working. But if there is nothing identifying them as a service dog, then how do I know that I should not walk up to someone, complement their dog, and ask if I can pet the dog?

Or, should I just get my own dog?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well if you are following this closely there's no rules except for when there are rules.

But don't tell anyone.

I still think they should use tactical K9 logos to back people off.....












selzer said:


> I have always been taught to leave service dogs alone, as they are working. But if there is nothing identifying them as a service dog, then how do I know that I should not walk up to someone, complement their dog, and ask if I can pet the dog?
> 
> Or, should I just get my own dog?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

or....just a friendly warning.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

I want a "my owner has a CC license" patch 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! That would work too!  



Thewretched said:


> I want a "my owner has a CC license" patch
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


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