# E-Coller and Michael Ellis training methods?



## Ashley_Howard (Mar 23, 2015)

So I was advised to go through a reputable trainer when it came to using the E-Coller on my 9 month old GSD. So I did my research and found a great trainer in my area. I asked her what types of methods she used when it came to training with the E-Coller and this was the response I got from her:

"Basically, all "modern" remote collar training is what we call low level e-collar training. There are variations on a theme, of course, and each trainer (even within the same organization ) is slightly different. Sit Means Sit and Offleash K9's protocols are near identical. Offleash K9 is the company that produced the video you sent me. Lou Castle is only one of an army of e-collar trainers, and honestly, he's not regarded as of the top trainers in this field, although he is very good. He has his own style, which is effective, but it's just one approach. I'm familiar with the SMS method, Lou's approach and those of trainers such as Duke Ferguson in PEI and finally Michael Ellis in San Francisco. My approach probably most closely resembles that of Michael Ellis' with my own protocols that have been developed and keep evolving after every dog I train."

Now I've done a fair amount of research into Lou Castle's methods, and feel very confident in his training methods. I however know nothing on Michael Ellis, so that's where you guys come in! Based on the response I received from my trainer, what do you guys think? Are Michael Ellis's methods any good? I've read so many horror stories on "ruined" dogs after e-coller training, so naturally the paranoid part of me is really worried about it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Ohh, I bet one person is going to strongly disagree with something


Hey Ashley, is there some specific goal you have? Why the ecollar vs some other things?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

You do know Lou is a member here??

By and large I roll "tool" free myself:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I do use a slip leash these days, more time required, but I'm not in a hurry so it works for me. 

tHESE ====


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i use Ecollars for corrections not training. the dogs do wear them in off leash training class but when i use them in the real world it's more just a tool to touch the dog at a distance. if a dog is not listening and being a butthead/ignoring you at 200feet away it's just a way to physically touch them to re-focus when they have a brain fart.

sometimes i wonder if the dogs think i'm some kinda magician. they must be thinking "how in the world can he still touch me from way over there".


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Link to Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers.

The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers

Plenty of videos including on his philosophy of training.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I learned it the way Michael Ellis taught it. There are some differences between Michael Ellis and Lou. No alarming differences I'd say. I did it on my own for my first ecollar dog by watching the Ellis videos, it wasn't hard. The second dog, my trainer helped me and she wasn't really following the Ellis protocol and went thru it quicker bypassing some steps recommended by Ellis. Overall theme/idea is the same. Personally, I felt the Ellis protocol when followed closely is my preferred method because my shepherd picked it up well and fast (or maybe because that method fitted her well or she's just smart like that!). 

If you want to know it for yourself to make an informed decision (rather than social media), you can learn more about both by reading Lou's site and purchasing videos of Michael Ellis' methods on ecollar from Leerburg. 

Your trainer sounds knowledgeable about the tool. I agree with her overall thoughts.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Originally e-collar was invented for problematic dogs when every other method failed: or it was a dog who is danger to himself (cats, running under wheels across a busy road after a cat), or extreme aggression. It affects dog's brain and destroys brain cells, especially when overused. Despite warnings e-collars become popular (like anything else what makes life easier). Is your dog really so bad that you have to use it? Anyway, a good trainer would recommend to sense electric shock and vibration yourself first before putting it on your dog. I heard that one girl put e-collar on herself and gave the controller into her younger brother's hands. She had never put it on her dog after. Please, remember, e-collars are much ruder, inhumane appliances than prong collars. Prong collars (if used not for their purpose) make dogs nervous and more aggressive, but how much damage e-collars do - is simply not known to science yet, they are comparatively new.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So wrong it borders on irresponsible to not delete it


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> So wrong it borders on irresponsible to not delete it


Well, maybe some of his thoughts just need some context. I think a lot of it is covered here, on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU0QZQRTNr0


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know if you're following this Ashley, but just remember the ecollar is just a tool. Its the dog training skills of the trainer that matter. Using the e collar isn't rocket science, and anyone can quote a bunch of methods and theory.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Welcome back, David. We've missed you.


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## Ashley_Howard (Mar 23, 2015)

the reason I had decided on the e-coller was the proof the things he already knows, as well as work on more distance and distraction training. I am comfortable in my decision to use the tool, just want to ensure my trainer is going to use the proper mthods. That's why I've been doing so much research on it, and asking questions. I want to be prepared and know the right questions to ask.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Look at dogs doing obedience that have been trained by your trainer. If their work is good, forget about the movies, stay out of his way and try to absorb what he is teaching you and your dog. You picked him for a reason I am assuming.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Ashley_Howard said:


> "Basically, all "modern" remote collar training is what we call low level e-collar training. There are variations on a theme, of course, and each trainer (even within the same organization ) is slightly different. Sit Means Sit and Offleash K9's protocols are near identical.


It's against my ethos to bash other dog trainers but some facts are needed. I don't know _"Offleash K9's protocols"_ but I do know that most SMS trainers use extremely high levels of stim to train the dogs that they work with. When they favored the TT Ecollars it was almost unheard of that they worked below a 4, about a 100 on today's Dogtra or an 80 on the Educator units. To become an SMS trainer one pays the founder $15K (I think it was, and it's probably higher these days) for a THREE WEEK LONG school. It makes no difference if you've never trained a dog before in your life, the school is three weeks long and you come out _ 'certified' _ as a _'remote collar specialist'_ fit to hang out a shingle as a dog trainer. I've been told by several graduates that MOST of the school is about marketing, not dog training. Even if it was ALL about dog training, three weeks is not near enough to learn enough to properly be labeled a "dog trainer." Some previously experienced dog trainers have taken some of the SMS training and adopted it to what they previously did. Given their experience, they're probably doing good work. The school is based on bird dog training and is based on forcing dogs to perform behaviors. 



Ashley_Howard said:


> Lou Castle is only one of an army of e-collar trainers, and honestly, he's not regarded as of the top trainers in this field, although he is very good.


We're not quite as organized as an army is, but there are lots of us. I have no idea what it means to be a _"top trainer in this field."_ Is it the number of dogs that one has trained? Is it excelling in one of the OB or biting sports? Is it in training dogs for LE work? Is it selling franchises? Is it in boiling away the nonsense and writing 'how to' articles on using the Ecollar for basic training and then putting them up on the Net where they're available to all for free? Is it some combination of these? Fact is, there is no way I know of, of measuring this. I think that I do OK, considering that I only did dog training for civilians (here used to mean, non LE) part time, and never earned my living from it, choosing instead to focus on LE K−9's. 

I give advice here, in Email, and on my own forum for free, although there are those who will say you get what you pay for. LOL. Do any of the others do that, except as an 'appetizer' to get you to buy their videos or their training? 



Ashley_Howard said:


> He has his own style, which is effective, but it's just one approach.


Well DUH. I'm just one guy. Of course I have _"one approach."_ It's called "whatever works, as long as it's humane." 



Ashley_Howard said:


> I'm familiar with the SMS method, Lou's approach and those of trainers such as Duke Ferguson in PEI and finally Michael Ellis in San Francisco. My approach probably most closely resembles that of Michael Ellis' with my own protocols that have been developed and keep evolving after every dog I train."


Basically Ellis' 'approach' is to use marker training to do the basic work and then to use an Ecollar to correct the dog when he's wrong. He uses fairly low levels of stim. But like most sport trainers he has little, if any, hands−on experience, when it comes to LE K−9's and he trains individual behaviors there, just as he does for sport work. He makes only peripheral use of drives, while with LE and other scenting dogs, I involve the dog's drives much more directly, basing most of the work there, on them. 



Ashley_Howard said:


> Now I've done a fair amount of research into Lou Castle's methods, and feel very confident in his training methods.


Thanks. I don't bother using marker training to start, unless I'm dealing with dogs too young for the Ecollar. It seems redundant to me. Why teach the same thing twice? With more mature dogs (as opposed to puppies) those over six months of age, my methods start with the Ecollar and so there's no major jump to make the transition to working off leash. 



Ashley_Howard said:


> I however know nothing on Michael Ellis, so that's where you guys come in! Based on the response I received from my trainer, what do you guys think? Are Michael Ellis's methods any good? I've read so many horror stories on "ruined" dogs after e-coller training, so naturally the paranoid part of me is really worried about it.


I wouldn't worry about Ellis' methods 'ruining' your dog. I've never heard of him getting this result. Other trainers, not so much. Do a search here and elsewhere for SMS and you get VERY mixed results.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

scarfish said:


> i use Ecollars for corrections not training. the dogs do wear them in off leash training class but when i use them * in the real world it's more just a tool to touch the dog at a distance. *


This is probably the most common use of the Ecollar in the US, and probably the rest of the world too. But there are drawbacks to it. Some trainers rely on the dog guessing correctly as to how to get the stim to stop. Sometimes they guess wrong and sometimes they guess right. I think it's better if the trainer shows the dog how to shut off the stim, rather than just wait for him to make the right decision. 

Doing it this way will probably give you good results if you're timing is good. The better your timing, the better and faster your results will come. If you don't have good timing, you'll cause lots of confusion and confusion leads to unreliability. My methods have the trainer doing a couple of things at exactly the same time, rather than seeing the dog do (or not do) something, recognize it as needing a correction and then delivering that correction. Later on, of course giving corrections after basic training will have the trainer doing this, but by then he'll have given hundreds of stims and will understand the system. This will probably not be the case with a newbie who goes right to using corrections right after training has been done with another tool/method. 



scarfish said:


> sometimes i wonder if the dogs think i'm some kinda magician. they must be thinking "how in the world can he still touch me from way over there".


I don't want the dogs that I train to think that the correction is coming from me, and they don't. They think it's caused by their own action (or inaction) and that it comes from the environment. This leads to greater reliability since the trainer does not have to be present or give a command.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Kayla's Dad said:


> Link to Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers.
> 
> The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers
> 
> Plenty of videos including on his philosophy of training.


There is lots of info there, but note that this is a school * for trainers * not dog owners.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> I learned it the way Michael Ellis taught it. There are some differences between Michael Ellis and Lou. No alarming differences I'd say. I did it on my own for my first ecollar dog by watching the Ellis videos, it wasn't hard. The second dog, my trainer helped me and she wasn't really following the Ellis protocol and went thru it quicker * bypassing some steps recommended by Ellis. *


I don't recommend skipping steps if you're going to follow a trainer's advice, especially if one is a newbie. An experienced trainer may do that with a particular dog, but if an owner (not as experienced as a trainer) does it, it may leave a hole in the foundation. Some people following my advice have done this, not seeing the reason to do something as recommended and it usually shows up as a problem later on.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

David Taggart said:


> Originally e-collar was invented for problematic dogs when every other method failed: or it was a dog who is danger to himself (cats, running under wheels across a busy road after a cat), or extreme aggression.


Sorry David, this is factually incorrect. Ecollars were developed to stop hunting dog from crittering, chasing undesired game. Dogs that were supposed to be hunting one type of game, would start chasing deer if seen, especially if the desired game was not present. Those Ecollars "blasted" the dogs off deer and they learned that chasing deer HURT. And so, most of them stopped. But many developed problems. 



David Taggart said:


> It affects dog's brain and destroys brain cells, especially when overused.


It does affect a dog's brain in that learning occurs. But I've never seen any evidence that Ecollars _"destroy brain cells."_ IN FACT, there is not one bit of evidence in all the years that Ecollars have existed that there is the slightest bit of damage caused by the current they produce. There have been dozens of studies done on Ecollars and NOT ONE OF THEM has shown any physical damage from the current. If you have some evidence, please present it. Otherwise you're just spreading FUD, myths and rumors. 



David Taggart said:


> Despite warnings e-collars become popular (like anything else what makes life easier).


Mostly the warnings come from people who have little to no experience with modern methods of using the tool and so they have little credibility. 



David Taggart said:


> Is your dog really * so bad * that you have to use it?


My dogs ARE * SO GOOD * that I GET TO use it! LOL



David Taggart said:


> Anyway, a good trainer would recommend to sense electric shock and vibration yourself first before putting it on your dog.


ALL of my clients are required to feel the stim before I put the collar on their dog. I do this at my seminars too. When I started doing them, few people had felt the stim, nowadays it's relatively rare to find someone who has not felt it. 



David Taggart said:


> * I heard * that one girl put e-collar on herself and gave the controller into her younger brother's hands. She had never put it on her dog after.


You _"heard?"_ Where did you _"hear"_ this? From some anti−Ecollar person? I think that people can easily see the fallacy with this argument. 



David Taggart said:


> Please, remember, e-collars are much ruder, inhumane appliances than prong collars.


Thanks for expressing your opinion. Mine is that Ecollars are the safest, most humane tools that exist for training dogs. Contrary to your FUD, they can't cause any physical damage, unless they're left on for too long. Of course that's the case with many dog training tools. 



David Taggart said:


> Prong collars (if used not for their purpose) make dogs nervous and more aggressive


I put a pinch collar next to my dog. He did not become either _"nervous [or] more aggressive."_ What you mean, I think, is that a pinch collar * "if used improperly" " can cause some issues. When used properly NEITHER of these things occur. 



David Taggart said:



but how much damage e-collars do - is simply not known to science yet, they are comparatively new.

Click to expand...

Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's, nearly half a century ago. There have been dozens of studies on them. None of them have reported any physical damage. A few have reported psychological issues but mostly those are nothing but conjecture from anti−Ecollar folks. 

But PLEASE if you have something that shows Ecollars causing either physical OR psychological damage, show it to us.*


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> * Look at dogs doing obedience that have been trained by your trainer. * If their work is good, forget about the movies, stay out of his way and try to absorb what he is teaching you and your dog. You picked him for a reason I am assuming.


Generally good advice but I know several unscrupulous trainers who have demo dogs that they have not trained. They purchased trained dogs and pass them off as dogs that they trained. 

I think that word of mouth is the best source of information about a trainer. Also take a look at his guarantee. Most offer 'more lessons' if you're not happy. But if what they gave you didn't work, it's probably not going to work, with more of the same. I offer my hands−on clients a complete refund if they're not satisfied.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> I don't recommend skipping steps if you're going to follow a trainer's advice, especially if one is a newbie. An experienced trainer may do that with a particular dog, but if an owner (not as experienced as a trainer) does it, it may leave a hole in the foundation. Some people following my advice have done this, not seeing the reason to do something as recommended and it usually shows up as a problem later on.


My post said that I followed the Ellis protocol on my first ecollar dog that I trained to ecollar myself but my trainer didn't on my second ecollar dog who I had my trainer assist with. The trainer is not a newbie.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> My post said that I followed the Ellis protocol on my first ecollar dog that I trained to ecollar myself but * my trainer didn't on my second ecollar dog * who I had my trainer assist with. The trainer is not a newbie.


MY POST SAID _"I don't recommend skipping steps if you're going to follow a trainer's advice, especially if one is a newbie. * An experienced trainer may do that with a particular dog, but if an owner (not as experienced as a trainer) does it, it may leave a hole in the foundation. * Some people following my advice have done this, not seeing the reason to do something as recommended and it usually shows up as a problem later on."_


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

impig33 said:


> some dogs(especially large dogs) have a good sense of discipline.



I've never found that the size of a dog has any effect on how _"disciplined"_ they were.


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