# HELP! Prong collar not enough~ *



## Mamie (May 13, 2014)

I'm new to this site- My 12 mo. working male can pull me down OR pull leash out of my hand if he sees a rabbit/ cat whilst walking. He's neutered, he's slender, + has had puppy obedience + teen obedience classes.

He wears a prong collar, fitted by obedience teacher [that was mos. ago]. I have newly developed hand arthritis, which is the absolute pits, + need to really have a hold on this dog. HELP + bless you for writing me back!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Was the prong effective when you were under the guidance of the trainer?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO dogs can pull on the prong. Constant pressure on the prong is something they can get used to. Jerking it is what they feel. 

When he starts to pull, jerk and turn and keep doing that. 
This is not the best way to use it, but an emergency fix since you have bad hands. 

The best way to use it is to lightly pop the prong BEFORE there's tension on it. So you're trying to make sure your leash is always loose. It's tedious and takes lots of work. 

Or, another, easier way of doing it, practice walking on a field. Walk one way, he gets a little ahead or too far abruptly change direction and walk the other way (some trainers say to jerk the leash before the turn)

The idea is to show the dog that near you is the safe spot. He gets too far away - and gets corrected. 

Good luck, it's a pain, I'm still dealing with it. It's not that hard on its own, just hard to be consistent. Once you start doing this yu can NEVER let him pull. And if you live in the city (like I do) and have to walk places and sometimes can't take two hours to walk 2 blocks - it gets complicated.

ETA correction, the best way to use it is to teach leash pressure. To teach them to give in to pressure as opposed to fight it. Second best is light pops and the most stressful (as I've been told) are the pops and turns


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## Mamie (May 13, 2014)

Yes. He was about 9 months then. I wonder if I need to get one of those leerburg "skinny" collars that fit up under the jaw.. but, to correct w/ those, one snaps the leash straight up. I'm in a reactionary millisecond when he spots the critter to pull from the side, as I'm trying to [not fall] and keep my dog by my side. He's so bloody strong. Thank you, BTW, for writing me back!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mamie said:


> Yes. He was about 9 months then. I wonder if I need to get one of those leerburg "skinny" collars that fit up under the jaw.. but, to correct w/ those, one snaps the leash straight up. I'm in a reactionary millisecond when he spots the critter to pull from the side, as I'm trying to [not fall] and keep my dog by my side. He's so bloody strong. Thank you, BTW, for writing me back!



Dominant collar? That's used very rarely and not for pulling. And it's much easier to control a dog on a prong than a dominant collar. In my experience


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## Mamie (May 13, 2014)

Thanks, L. I know to turn when he pulls; When he sees a cat or bunny, often it's before I do, and there's an explosion on the leash as if a Rocket was tied to me. It's as if a racehorse was tied to me.. we're out in the country. I'm wondering if 2 prong collars would help?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You're welcome 

What I'm thinking is a few more sessions with the trainer, since it was working back then. If your hand is in pain already then you probably shouldn't be using it for the corrections anyhow. Another thing that works is the "leash wrap" where you wrap the leash around the torso, loop it through, and then up. There's a thread on it here somewhere - that's how I heard about it - and it works very well for pups that will pull through a prong.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mamie said:


> Thanks, L. I know to turn when he pulls; When he sees a cat or bunny, often it's before I do, and there's an explosion on the leash as if a Rocket was tied to me. It's as if a racehorse was tied to me.. we're out in the country. I'm wondering if 2 prong collars would help?



Yeah, I forgot to mention. I'm also watching everything around me to notice his triggers. 

Nope, 2 prongs won't help. Also, this is not a popular advice but works for me. Get the micro prong. 

Or, leerburg suggests sharpening every second or third prong which is basically same as getting a micro prong. 

These are not the best solutions but your dog getting loose or dragging you are not good options either. Sometimes have to do what you need to. 

Once you got it under control train him to walk properly and ignore critters


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## Axel13 (Jun 23, 2014)

Mamie said:


> I'm new to this site- My 12 mo. working male can pull me down OR pull leash out of my hand if he sees a rabbit/ cat whilst walking. He's neutered, he's slender, + has had puppy obedience + teen obedience classes.
> 
> He wears a prong collar, fitted by obedience teacher [that was mos. ago]. I have newly developed hand arthritis, which is the absolute pits, + need to really have a hold on this dog. HELP + bless you for writing me back!


I use an easy walk harness on my biggest fella. He was a very bad for pulling on the lead and this harness has worked wonders. 

I am not a fan of the prong collars as the dog gets used to the feeling after a while and then begin pulling all over again. The easy walk harness causes the dog to be pulled towards you when he pulls forward.

Its worked wonders with my boy!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The first post in this thread has a great picture of the leash wrap, if my description didn't make sense:

Improvement on Leash - thanks to Kari - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

I personally wouldn't bother with smaller prongs or sharpening them (hmmm) because the whole problem, IMO, is that you're actually unable to issue proper corrections with your painful hand - that's why I think the trainer is needed.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I wouldn't sharpen the prongs but leerburg does have it on its website and I'm passing it on. I wouldn't do lots of things that I see suggested but it doesn't mean other people wouldn't. So I'm passing on something I read and saying where I read it. People can then decide if they want to take that person's advice. 
He did suggest it for situations like this one (if I remember correctly), when a dog is desensitized to the prong. 

The micro prong, however, I like a lot. It takes much less force than a regular prong does and that's why I suggested it. In my experience, it's easier to control my dog on the micro. 

I have seen a warning that an untrained large dog can be injured on the micro prong but I didn't see the explanation (like how it'd happen). Can someone explain what happens on the micro that doesn't happen on the regular prong?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I suppose you were just being helpful with the sharpening suggestion, but if you wouldn't do it yourself, then why advise it? Or better yet, why not provide a link to the Leerburg site so that OP can read the entire premise behind it, and then decide if it's appropriate. To me, it sounds like a recipe for disaster, since we all know that a pup will pull into the prong if it's only used in the "power steering" way, and the dog will continue to pull, to the point of discomfort. Not a nice thought with the ends sharpened down!


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

Mamie said:


> I wonder if I need to get one of those leerburg "skinny" collars that fit up under the jaw.. but, to correct w/ those, one snaps the leash straight up.


That is emphatically NOT how the dominant dog collar is intended to be used, and using it that way will lead to neck and throat injuries. You don't jerk the dog, you apply a small amount of upwards pressure to cut off the airway, which most dogs find extremely unpleasant and respond to instantly. Personally, I find the concept very problematic for correcting sudden unanticipated reactions since the dog will often jerk itself regardless of the handler's input.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I suppose you were just being helpful with the sharpening suggestion, but if you wouldn't do it yourself, then why advise it? Or better yet, why not provide a link to the Leerburg site so that OP can read the entire premise behind it, and then decide if it's appropriate. To me, it sounds like a recipe for disaster, since we all know that a pup will pull into the prong if it's only used in the "power steering" way, and the dog will continue to pull, to the point of discomfort. Not a nice thought with the ends sharpened down!



There's lots of things I wouldn't do on my dog, things that reputable trainers do. Since when am I a gauge for what's a good technique and what isn't. 

If I had the link handy I would've posted it, leerburg had tons of stuff, I read it all, memorized most of it. To find it i'd be doing the same thing the op would do if she was interested in the suggestion and decided to read up on it


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Actually I might be wrong on this. He says to grind dull points, whatever that means, in the middle of the page here and it's for a different problem. But I think I saw it someplace else as well. I can't easily find it

http://leerburg.com/qadogfight.htm


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

On the same page he does tell someone else to sharpen it. It's a diff problem, once again, but he's suggesting it. And I def seen it someplace else.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Turning works....also blocking the dog, mark with "back" the second the dog reaches the limit you have set...then nail it with the prong and then pivot in front of the dog. I'd work on that in an environment where no dogs, squirrels, monkeys or other distractions will be present.....just use this until the dog stays in the place you desire.....loose leash the entire time..excepting when the dog starts to forge and then "BACK"...give the leash a sharp meaningful pop and then pivot in front of the dog and stop it in it's tracks....continue the process until the dog figures it out. If you have any tension on the leash when the dog is doing what they should, it will take much longer. In short order, the word "back" will back the dog up without even having to snap the leash and prong...patience, repetition and consistency.


SuperG


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

the OP never said if she actually uses the prong collar to give corrections or just expects her dog to behave while wearing it. just having the dog wearing one isn't using one. lalachka is right about giving a good "snap" correction. you also have to yell no with some balls in your voice. which is harder for females to do so they have to try harder. deepen your voice and shake the neighborhood if you have to.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

One more point about sharpening and micro prong. I only brought it up because the op is asking about having 2 prongs or a dominant collar, she's making it obvious that at this point the prong is not cutting it for her. 

So I posted some suggestions so that she can walk him for now and I did say that she should train him to ignore critters and walk on the leash.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Im an amateur, so maybe my advise wont help but ill tell you how my experience went. My dog is great in obedience class, like yours, and walking alone with me, but the minute we walk with a group of dogs he will drag me to the front of the group. He always wants to be in front. Its worse when my daughters with us because then I get dragged back and forth , back and forth, for him to check on her and herd every other dog back to the group. Hes 110 pounds and the only way for me to stop him is to sit on the ground. Not only is it embarrasing but exhausting. My trainer had be buy a prong and give him treats for a 2 days when ever he touched it and or let me put in on him. Then we worked with it on him and leashed, moving/backing away from him and treating him when he came back to my side. I didnt have to yank him or pull on the prong. He corrects himself when he pulls on it. Its like night and day. I carry it in the car for our group walks. I just have to put in on him , no leash attached and hes a good dog. I take it off and hes a brat...lol. 

my trainers advice was if I have to keep yanking the prong im doing it wrong. See if you can get professional help on using it. It makes a difference.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm also an amateur. With that, a few notes on my experience. Maybe it depends on a dog because I heard people before say that the prong self corrects their dog so there must be something to it. 

My dog pulls on the prong just as hard as the flat collar. When he really wants to get somewhere he pulls so hard that my 170 pounds get dragged. 

I don't let him do it, it's dangerous but just to show you that some dogs don't self correct. They get used to the feeling and pull as before. 

My trainers (I had multiple) all said that there should never be tension on the leash and the way to work the prong is by popping it, not pulling. Pop, jerk, same word. Supposedly, that's the point of the prong, it mimics a bite to the neck, as a correction. To mimic the bite you have to jerk. 

I was told to not let him get to the end of the leash, to pop and turn or get him back in position by doing a few light pops (diff trainers had diff methods). I was told that if I let him pull he will get desensitized and he did.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I started with the larger prong on my once dog reactive male. The GSD club recommended the smaller prong and it was a world of difference. I don't remember a time when I had to correct him. He would move forward and stop once he felt any pressure. He is a dream dog to walk now, very loose leash and stays with me no matter what he sees. The prong was more of a secondary traing tool, we worked heavily on focus, leave it, and watch me. It took me about 4 months to train the dog reactivity out of him and it was constant busted my butt training to get him where he is now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Same here. I had two diff trainers recommend it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with getting back into classes, if the prong isn't working, I'm also thinking your using it wrong/ill timed correction..Yes the dog self corrects, some don't and need US to give that xtra oomph.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A dog "self correcting" with a prong is a new one to me.....if it works...the only lesson being learned is ....I'm allowed to pull to an extreme where it becomes very uncomfortable. I would think that somewhat allows for a dog to still pull but not to the degree where the dog punishes itself. I guarantee a dog's threshold of pain ( in this scenario) is much higher than what would allow for a behaved walk. 

Why would anyone wait to use the benefit of a prong collar when the leash is already that tight? 

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You might want to google "crittering." I would not usually suggest an e-collar, but, since you have a dog that is getting out of control, and a physical limitation, you might find that you can train the dog, using an e-collar to master his prey drive. 

I hear others have success with the method. 

The thing is, what he is doing is dangerous. The tool may protect your dog by eliminating a bad habit that might kill him (running across a road to go after a squirrel). 

Yes, classes, classes, classes. The dog is still a young adult, and more classes, will reinforce the training you have into him, until he is truly mature.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> A dog "self correcting" with a prong is a new one to me.....if it works...the only lesson being learned is ....I'm allowed to pull to an extreme where it becomes very uncomfortable. I would think that somewhat allows for a dog to still pull but not to the degree where the dog punishes itself. I guarantee a dog's threshold of pain ( in this scenario) is much higher than what would allow for a behaved walk.
> 
> Why would anyone wait to use the benefit of a prong collar when the leash is already that tight?
> 
> SuperG


In my case when we started using the prong in training he turned into a completely different dog once the prong went on. My guess is that he didn't like the feeling so he just behaved. My female was trained on a flat collar and the few times I put a prong on her she did the same thing. My male was really bad with the dog reactivity. He pulled, barked, and lunged. After a few times with the prong on, he just didn't do it. They showed me how to correct him but I never have had to. It seems like once he feels the pressure he knows the feeling and does not like it. He is making the choice to behave and I am happy that he is able to make that choice.


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## GSxOwner (Jul 9, 2013)

Have you tried a different approach than prong collars? If they are losing their effectiveness maybe try a different type of training? When I got my pup about a year and a half ago I started clicker training. I WISH I had known about clicker training when I had my old dog (border collie X german shep) because it would have made my life a lot easier haha. Its easier to mark and reward the behaviour you want than it is to keep punishing because imo the dog has no idea what its being punished for usually. After teaching my dog what the clicker meant "loading the clicker" some people call it, I used the word "wassis" (whats this lol) and that meant that I had a HIGH value reward ready for her if she looked at me n came to me. I started small in the house and then moved to yard where all the bunnies and birds are and would randomly yell "WASSIS!" and she would give me her full attention (don't need clicker for that anymore now she understands) and I do it on walks too just to get her attention. Just an idea, it worked really well for me and I walk my dog on a regular harness with no problems. I have another bc german shep x so I know how hard it can be to get through to them when their prey drive is high. Good luck!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ME says you can't clicker a dog from chasing critters. It's much more reinforcing than any reward you can offer

ETA I guess it depends on a dog. I know that when my dog wants to chase something I don't exist. He's focused, he doesn't see or hear me


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> In my case when we started using the prong in training he turned into a completely different dog once the prong went on. My guess is that he didn't like the feeling so he just behaved. My female was trained on a flat collar and the few times I put a prong on her she did the same thing. My male was really bad with the dog reactivity. He pulled, barked, and lunged. After a few times with the prong on, he just didn't do it. They showed me how to correct him but I never have had to. It seems like once he feels the pressure he knows the feeling and does not like it. He is making the choice to behave and I am happy that he is able to make that choice.


Low pain threshold I guess ???? Or maybe low drive dogs ??...or a combination of both???

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> ME says you can't clicker a dog from chasing critters. It's much more reinforcing than any reward you can offer
> 
> ETA I guess it depends on a dog. I know that when my dog wants to chase something I don't exist. He's focused, he doesn't see or hear me



Been there..... took some serious "intervention" to curb that behavior....

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Been there..... took some serious "intervention" to curb that behavior....
> 
> SuperG



Yeah lol. I can't picture clicking through this one. And I love marker training. Some situations require force though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Low pain threshold I guess ???? Or maybe low drive dogs ??...or a combination of both???
> 
> SuperG


Neither are low drive. The male is very high drive and the female is med to high drive. To be fair none of my dogs like when I'm mad at them or when I yell. I don't do it often, but when I raise my voice ears go back and dogs scatter and lay low until I tell them it's ok. They are very in tune with how I feel and respect that. I just think they don't like it and are smart enough to figure out what they need to do and what can happen if it's not done. Not sure how to determine pain threshold.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lalachka said:


> ME says you can't clicker a dog from chasing critters. It's much more reinforcing than any reward you can offer
> 
> ETA I guess it depends on a dog. I know that when my dog wants to chase something I don't exist. He's focused, he doesn't see or hear me


I don't think clicker training would work in this case either. I do mostly positive training and the prong, which has been pretty positive to, just more control. I have 6 dogs that are not allowed to chase any wildlife or outside creatures. We have now gotten to the point where birds can land within a couple feet if all of them and they ignore them. So far they don't chase birds, ducks, geese, or rabbits. I don't get to many squirrels in the yard but I know they are there because every walnut they buried my dogs unburied They are even good with turtles and horses. Toads are an issue, they keep finding those and I keep saving the toads. Just the other night my oldest female non GSD found a toad, picked if up and laid down with it. When she moved she picked him up and brought it with wherever she went and she didn't kill it(she did this for about a half hour) I always grab the toads and let the dogs smell them and to be nice, I don't want them eating them


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Neither are low drive. The male is very high drive and the female is med to high drive. To be fair none of my dogs like when I'm mad at them or when I yell. I don't do it often, but when I raise my voice ears go back and dogs scatter and lay low until I tell them it's ok. They are very in tune with how I feel and respect that. I just think they don't like it and are smart enough to figure out what they need to do and what can happen if it's not done. Not sure how to determine pain threshold.



I was thinking about my previous reply and was going to emend with....."or maybe just quick studies"....

SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

For the OP I would lose the prong, it's obviously not working, something went wrong somewhere and at this point it would take a pro to undo the damage done.

I would start over with this approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FqtL6o7kDE

If used "properly" a prong collar "should" have worked! But between you and this dog that boat has sailed! A Dominate Dog collar is not for this situation! Don't compound one mistake with another one! 

Properly used a prong collar on a dog should have gone like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrrQJto8xJU

If I have a problem with one of my dogs I don't think what's wrong with this dog??? But rather...what am I doing wrong?? Works out better in the long wrong!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Properly used a prong collar on a dog should have gone like this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrrQJto8xJU


Okay, that video...before and after is a bit optimistic....the pit transformed into a non-puller the instant the prong was on....nary a correction...or the most subtle of corrections. The dog never forged once compared to the flat collar walk. Maybe a tight coat compared to the coat of a GSD makes a huge difference?? I have seen too many other examples of a pulling dog put on a prong which didn't yield these type of immediate results. The video almost paints the picture that the simple application of a prong makes a dog walk in the proper spot without a single correction.

I'm sure it happens but I'd be surprised if this video depicts the norm.

SuperG


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol SuperG, I totally agree. I've seen this happen once, on one dog, so I know it _can_ happen, but I think it's setting people up for major disappointment when their own prong isn't the shiny magic wonder that this video implies that it is.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The dog is already desensitized to the prong. Using it further, in a different manner, will take some finesse and time.

Like Selzer suggested, I would personally look at using an e-collar, with the help of a professional, to work on the crittering protocol. You can read through Lou Castle's web site for a good primer. It is something you can do yourself if you follow the protocols by the letter and don't get impatient, but getting guidance from a pro that uses the same principles as Lou's system will help you understand the basics.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think this video is great at showing how to implement leash pressure work / "Conversational Leash Work."






IMO, it's a mistake to throw a prong on a dog and walk out the front door, expecting to have any problems miraculously solved. The dog needs time and experience to learn the rules.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I really liked that video. I've never seen anyone explain using leash pressure like that. Thanks, David!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i am curious if you are actually walking in a training style or if the dog is at the end of the leash out ahead of you

because prongs are not for letting the dog range out and pull at the end of the leash 
they are there to teach dogs how to walk at a proper heel beside you

if you let the dog range to the end of the leash and begin pulling you have defeated the purpose of the prong


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> I really liked that video. I've never seen anyone explain using leash pressure like that. Thanks, David!


You bet! I think leash pressure is a very useful way to communicate with a dog. 

David Winners


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

David Winners said:


> You bet! I think leash pressure is a very useful way to communicate with a dog.
> 
> David Winners


Well, guess what I'll be trying out later today...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Okay, that video...before and after is a bit optimistic....the pit transformed into a non-puller the instant the prong was on....nary a correction...or the most subtle of corrections. The dog never forged once compared to the flat collar walk. Maybe a tight coat compared to the coat of a GSD makes a huge difference?? I have seen too many other examples of a pulling dog put on a prong which didn't yield these type of immediate results. The video almost paints the picture that the simple application of a prong makes a dog walk in the proper spot without a single correction.
> 
> I'm sure it happens but I'd be surprised if this video depicts the norm.
> 
> SuperG


LOL, so basically the "criticism" is...it "can't" be that easy! :laugh: Most likely not! But nonetheless when it's done correctly...that is what it would like!

Tylor Muto likes to explain things and TheGoodTraining guy doesn't! It's not a my Pro can beat your Pro debate! 

Some "people" are simply more capable of dealing with dogs than others! "Most" folks using a prong don't realize that the "proper" use of a prong collar is a "skill" that they have to acquire! Learn to use the tool first, then train your dog! They just want to "train' there dog! 


Anybody can do the "loose leash training video" using the prong takes "skill!"

For "me" it's pretty simple if you have a prong collar on your dog and your still, yanking and cranking...your doing it wrong!


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I love all these videos, trying to learn the "proper" use of the tool. I will be getting the tool soon and want to make sure I don't screw things up.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> LOL, so basically the "criticism" is...it "can't" be that easy! :laugh: Most likely not! But nonetheless when it's done correctly...that is what it would like!
> 
> Tylor Muto likes to explain things and TheGoodTraining guy doesn't! It's not a my Pro can beat your Pro debate!
> 
> ...


I just referred to the other video because it actually explains the concepts and shows a dog going through the learning process. There isn't much for a viewer to learn if the dog automatically behaves. I think it's a better learning tool. 

David Winners


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18...

Oh...I think you took my critique incorrectly. My point was...the *average *person with a raging pulling beast at the end of the leash most likely will never get the same result that quickly as the video displayed by simply attaching a prong collar to their dog. I agree with your premise that one needs to understand the mentality behind any of these tools such as a prong collar as well as a proper application. 

This much I do know from experience....and this is a huge benefit most knowledgeable trainers have when dealing with someone else's dog....a trainer steps into a situation as an unknown entity....the owner and their failings ( lack of control etc. are already well known by the dog and acts accordingly ( poor behavior in this case ). The trainer however introduces themselves from the very first moment in an entirely different light than the struggling owner...the trainer exudes a level of calm authority in a manner which the dog many times submits to in a sense or at least has the dog "off balance". This gives the trainer a huge upper hand...and rightfully so...any trainer worth their salt knows the value of setting the stage properly. I have seen trainers take a "problem" dog and within minutes has the dog acting completely differently than the "problem" dog the owner knows....and it's always an epiphany of sorts to the owner..." How did you do that?"...I think you know exactly what I am suggesting. 

I would still assert, even if an owner mostly understood the application of a prong collar, they would not turn their raging pulling dog into a civil docile leash walking pooch near as quickly as the trainer will....the reason is simply, the owner even using the proper techniques STILL needs to impress upon the dog that the old sheriff has been replaced by this all new and improved sheriff....once that has been successfully ingrained into the dog....life gets easy. The trainer never has to go through this transformation because they are smart enough to start off with proper command and control, leaving the dog with little if any options. I truly believe the old saying regarding " lead or be led"....and a dog is a wonderful example of this mentality.

SuperG


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Axel13 said:


> I use an easy walk harness on my biggest fella. He was a very bad for pulling on the lead and this harness has worked wonders.
> 
> I am not a fan of the prong collars as the dog gets used to the feeling after a while and then begin pulling all over again. The easy walk harness causes the dog to be pulled towards you when he pulls forward.
> 
> Its worked wonders with my boy!


Agree with Axel! I use a harness -Walk In Sync Walk In Sync - The Easiest and Most Humane Way to Walk and Train Your Dog - Home I learned how to properly use it from the training videos that came with it. My Sting was the same as the op's dog -rabbits, squirrels, he went after.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I just referred to the other video because it actually explains the concepts and shows a dog going through the learning process. There isn't much for a viewer to learn if the dog automatically behaves. I think it's a better learning tool.
> 
> David Winners


Tyler Muto explains things in detail no doubt! I had seen that video but did not get it the first time, then I saw it again and listened more carefully!

A dog already use to a prong! A much tougher case! Do it wrong and your work load doubles!

My "guy" makes it look like magic!  If I ever have need of a prong in the future, that's what I want my use of it to look like!

Now folks know!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Chip18...
> 
> Oh...I think you took my critique incorrectly. My point was...the *average *person with a raging pulling beast at the end of the leash most likely will never get the same result that quickly as the video displayed by simply attaching a prong collar to their dog. I agree with your premise that one needs to understand the mentality behind any of these tools such as a prong collar as well as a proper application.


No problem, your assessment is accurate! It's not really a how to as much as it is a "this is what it should like" video! 

If it does nothing else, it shows folks, yanking and cranking with a prong is not the way to go! 





SuperG said:


> This much I do know from experience....and this is a huge benefit most knowledgeable trainers have when dealing with someone else's dog....a trainer steps into a situation as an unknown entity....the owner and their failings ( lack of control etc. are already well known by the dog and acts accordingly ( poor behavior in this case ). The trainer however introduces themselves from the very first moment in an entirely different light than the struggling owner...the trainer exudes a level of calm authority in a manner which the dog many times submits to in a sense or at least has the dog "off balance". This gives the trainer a huge upper hand...and rightfully so...any trainer worth their salt knows the value of setting the stage properly. I have seen trainers take a "problem" dog and within minutes has the dog acting completely differently than the "problem" dog the owner knows....and it's always an epiphany of sorts to the owner..." How did you do that?"...I think you know exactly what I am suggesting.


Wow thank you for that!!! Those were thoughts bouncing around in my head for months! 

Thanks to Sheppardmom, I was able to start working with Boxers and Buddies!  One of the first dogs I walked, I was told how horrible he was on leash! He's a puller, bad on leash etc, etc! 

Needless to say with me...that did not happen! Yep he has work to do but I would not have described him as a puller! Stop and go occasional, Tsss and a finger poke or two,no biggie. It was a very pleasant walk!

Passed him along at the end of the day...and off he goes, dragging his foster behind him!!!



SuperG said:


> I would still assert, even if an owner mostly understood the application of a prong collar, they would not turn their raging pulling dog into a civil docile leash walking pooch near as quickly as the trainer will....the reason is simply, the owner even using the proper techniques STILL needs to impress upon the dog that the old sheriff has been replaced by this all new and improved sheriff....once that has been successfully ingrained into the dog....life gets easy. The trainer never has to go through this transformation because they are smart enough to start off with proper command and control, leaving the dog with little if any options. I truly believe the old saying regarding " lead or be led"....and a dog is a wonderful example of this mentality.
> SuperG


Again no disagreement here! If you do your job right the first time, a lot of problems just never appear! 

I fully expected problems with my "people aggressive" GSD with his history of going after my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix, inter pack aggression! So I was expecting a dog reactive dog!

I did the 'Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" for people did the same with dogs (ignore and move on) and as a result the dog reactive thing never happened! He learned...don't act like a fool around people or other dogs! 

My goal is to train with a flat collar and leash if I have to resort to "tools," I've done something wrong??

The "loose leash video" is something anyone can do! And I have heard from members on the Boxer that it worked out just fine for them! Sometimes simple is the way to go!


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## Nikkavy (Nov 25, 2012)

*Specifics?*

I would love to hear a few specifics on what you've done to control high drive dogs from lunging on leash at animals or items. My female is just determined to lunge / get anything that moves (leaves, sand/rocks kicked up by a shoe, branches from landscaping, birds, mice in a bush). We do mostly positive training, combined with the prong. Our trainer has us trying the headcollar but she hates it so much we have a hard time using it.

Main problem is there are too many things for her to lunge at such that "leave it" might work fine until 2 seconds later when she sees the next leaf and has near taken my arm off in her lunge for it.

She's 1.5 years old, spayed, and has some basic obedience but is not great with distractions around. Food/toy motivated to an extent, but nothing I can feed her beats excitement from "outside world". Ball occasionally works.

Pointers much appreciated!






llombardo said:


> I don't think clicker training would work in this case either. I do mostly positive training and the prong, which has been pretty positive to, just more control. I have 6 dogs that are not allowed to chase any wildlife or outside creatures. We have now gotten to the point where birds can land within a couple feet if all of them and they ignore them. So far they don't chase birds, ducks, geese, or rabbits. I don't get to many squirrels in the yard but I know they are there because every walnut they buried my dogs unburied They are even good with turtles and horses. Toads are an issue, they keep finding those and I keep saving the toads. Just the other night my oldest female non GSD found a toad, picked if up and laid down with it. When she moved she picked him up and brought it with wherever she went and she didn't kill it(she did this for about a half hour) I always grab the toads and let the dogs smell them and to be nice, I don't want them eating them


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## bennrobin (Jun 6, 2013)

Mamie said:


> I'm new to this site- My 12 mo. working male can pull me down OR pull leash out of my hand if he sees a rabbit/ cat whilst walking. He's neutered, he's slender, + has had puppy obedience + teen obedience classes.
> 
> He wears a prong collar, fitted by obedience teacher [that was mos. ago]. I have newly developed hand arthritis, which is the absolute pits, + need to really have a hold on this dog. HELP + bless you for writing me back!


Hi, Mamie. We have a 17-month old sweet, sweet, sweet, GSD, 100 pounds who was doing the same thing to us. The lunging and pulling were the worst. Almost had a few face plants LOL. He just wanted to go play with other dogs. But other dogs were scared of him. Choke collar and prong collar did not work.

We finally invested in The Dog Wizard. They are a franchise. We have one in South Carolina called The Columbia Dog Wizard. They train using the e-collar, money-back guarantee, lifetime training.

It is expensive but like my husband said the best investment he ever made. 

We are happy. The dog is happy. We can even walk him off leash now. The police who patrol our neighborhood are amazed at how well he behaves (don't even say anything about him not being on leash since he never leaves my side). As all trainers say, the hardest job is training the owners but we are learning and hopefully soon we will not need the e-collar at all. 

Such a life changer.

Robin


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