# What is a Soft Dog?



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Is it a "sensitive dog"? One you have to be careful in basic training with so they don't get scared or defensive and "shut down". Or, is it a dog that does not respond well to the use of a chain or whip?

I see the term used here and in a less than positive manner sometimes or "one that takes special handling". I guess I've never met a "soft dog" in the GSD line that hadn't been abused in some way by a previous handler. If it's a genetic issue - I would assume that's another flaw on the current lines.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't know, I may not be using the term correctly. I have described Newlie that way before, but he is not really nervy, skittish, fearful or anything like that. I wouldn't say he was really sensitive, either, he doesn't go hide in a corner if he is scolded or corrected for something. His past is unknown, but he doesn't strike me as a dog that has been mistreated. He doesn't cringe, he has no fear of my hands or of me taking hold of his collar, just in general he seems to expect good things when he comes toward me. I have said Newlie is soft because he is not aloof or suspicious, he likes people and interacts well with them..


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

I would describe Nitro as soft. He's confident, happy, brave, has a high pain tolerance (e.g. when kicking his ball he ignores accidental hard kicks to the head), and he isn't scared of anything. When my son, (Nitro's favourite person), caught him in the act of chewing the playstation control, and verbally chastised him with passion, (but not scary), Nitro was emotionally devastated. A dog that is sensitive to your displeasure, or your perceived displeasure, is how I would describe a soft dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sounds like its a term used in different ways or for different situations maybe.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

generally speaking, the terms shouldn't vary in different ways or for different situations...
this is the best article I could find on short time, just to clear up that being "soft" isn't necessarily a negative or a fault. Leerburg | Buying a Leerburg Puppy Q&A

...it has more to do with your training approach, experience level and technique more so than the viability of the dog. granted I train guide dogs... but for many reasons, middle of the road is preferred. getting them from point A to point B is one thing.... pairing them with a suitable handler and in the right environment is another.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

A soft dog is simply one that doesn't handle corrections/pressure well. This doesn't always mean the dog has bad nerve.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don't think the word matters so much as understanding our dogs. I thought my puppy was "soft" because he doesn't tolerate pain well. He's a working line dog from good lines, so it didn't make sense. I'd met the parents who are very solid, sound dogs with excellent temperaments. I worked my way through a few classes and trainers that weren't right for my dog. Finally found a trainer with IPO and WL experience and found that my dog is the opposite of "soft." I started using different training methods and he responded much better. So, for me, knowing what term fits isn't nearly as important as knowing how to get the results I want. 

Regarding this site, I had the same confusion about "redirect." I think the best way to use this board is if we aren't sure someone means what we think they do when using a term, just ask.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> A soft dog is simply one that doesn't handle corrections/pressure well. This doesn't always mean the dog has bad nerve.


How does this differ from handler sensitive? Can a dog be hard and handler sensitive? Or be mistaken for soft because they are handler sensitive?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> How does this differ from handler sensitive? Can a dog be hard and handler sensitive? Or be mistaken for soft because they are handler sensitive?


I think that means a dog responds to a handler it connects with who is using a milder correction, where it might need a much harsher correction from a different handler. My dog responds best when he understands very clearly what the handler wants, so he needs very little correction. But that doesn't make him soft, it makes him responsive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know what handler sensitive is. I want to know what mycobraracr thinks on how it differs from being soft.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> How does this differ from handler sensitive? Can a dog be hard and handler sensitive? Or be mistaken for soft because they are handler sensitive?



I'm going to try and describe it the best I can. Handler sensitivity is more on an emotional level. One line of dogs I can think of, I would consider good hard dogs that are handler sensitive. Here is an example of why I say that. Say the dog does something wrong that it knows, and the handler gives it a hard correction on a pinch or e-collar and the dog doesn't really react or respond. The type of dogs we joke that could get smacked across the head with a 2x4 and still think it was a game. I know you work dogs, so I'm sure you've seen one. However that same dog would shut down if the handler got truly upset with the dog. Say handler gets frustrated or loses it's temper. The handler may not even need to be physical with the dog at that point. Think of the stern mom look haha. Does this make sense?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I totally understand what handler sensitive is. I have one  I have to be very careful about how I correct him. "I", not my TD or my helper...it's all about me 

What I want to know is the difference between handler sensitive and soft. For instance, if I correct my dog with a higher stim or with emotion, he is going to dramatically react. He reacts dramatically when my helper grabbed his ear the first time. But the more pressure you put on him in protection, the better he gets. So IMO, that would not be a soft dog but he is handler sensitive (and that is in his lines). I would say he is a dog that needs to gain confidence when learning and doing something new. 

However, his half brother you can hit with the highest stim and he just tilts his head like a gnat is bothering him. So is my dog softer than his brother? Yes! So, also just my opinion, there are varying levels of soft that mesh with handler sensitivity which then become subjective to an opinion thus blurring the lines between the two.

At what point, in your opinion, is a dog soft? and I ask that because of your statement of "A soft dog is simply one that doesn't handle corrections/pressure well"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I think something that happens is folks look at these terms as all inclusive and they aren't. it's a package deal. if I had to describe one of my boys I'd say he's very handler sensitive but not soft... he's confident, resilient, assertive at times but not hard. he can handle a hard correction but does not require them. are there times that he needs supportive handling? sure! but would he be okay with someone who didn't recognize the need at the time... sure. overall I'd say he's middle of the road - but when singling out a specific term I can see where it can be confusing or misleading for some.

as someone said earlier, it's more about knowing your dog and what type of handling is going to be most effective in their training. outside of working, service, sport, breeding, etc - I don't see much importance of terminology for pet parents.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

As I see it a soft dog doesn't necessarily handle physical correction badly, it just takes way less intensity to effectively correct the dog. Dogs do not feel pain in a uniform manner. It is highly genetic especially when a dog goes into drive. 
I essentially agree with mycobrarcar's idea of handler sensitivity.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> As I see it a soft dog doesn't necessarily handle physical correction badly, it just takes way less intensity to effectively correct the dog. Dogs do not feel pain in a uniform manner. It is highly genetic especially when a dog goes into drive.
> I essentially agree with mycobrarcar's idea of handler sensitivity.


Let's take "pain" out of the equation because you can correct without having "pain" and the reaction I see when the remote is in my hand vs in the hand of my TD is not even comparable. When he knows the correction is coming from me, it is a different level of reaction from him.

How do you feel "soft" correlates to pressure? (maybe that's the word that stuck out in mycobraracr's post for me?)

For instance, in tracking, my dog was worried about line pressure. Not because he had been overly corrected but because he is hander sensitive. So I had to start introducing line pressure with a light touch. Now I can give pops as we get to food and it doesn't affect him. Again, one pressure is introduced and he understands it, it's a non issue.

so there are three components here

Soft
Handler sensitivity
Confidence in the task (not general confidence in temperament and life but directly in the task)


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I totally understand what handler sensitive is. I have one  I have to be very careful about how I correct him. "I", not my TD or my helper...it's all about me
> 
> What I want to know is the difference between handler sensitive and soft. For instance, if I correct my dog with a higher stim or with emotion, he is going to dramatically react. He reacts dramatically when my helper grabbed his ear the first time. But the more pressure you put on him in protection, the better he gets. So IMO, that would not be a soft dog but he is handler sensitive (and that is in his lines). I would say he is a dog that needs to gain confidence when learning and doing something new.
> 
> ...




I agree with you on the varying levels and blurred lines. We see all sorts of things that can cross over from one thing to another. When discussing things like softness, drive levels, sensitivity, we are always going to see things differently. You and I both work dogs on a regular basis, but the number of dogs worked, the types of dogs worked and how the dogs are worked are how we are getting our information. It's our sample size if you will. So a dog you think is soft, I may think was the hardest dog to ever have walked the planet. Or a mid drive dog to you may be an over the top monster to me. It's why it's so hard to have discussions on here sometimes. Unless we are all talking about the same dog that we've seen first hand in the same session it can be rather difficult. 

To me a soft dog is one that doesn't handle corrections or pressure from more than just the handler. Now exposure can have an affect on this as well IMO. So take what you said about your dog for example. You said he needs to see things first then he's fine. Like the ear pinch. At first he may have reacted, but once he's seen it now it just makes him angry. That could be some softness and uncertainty, but one that was easily worked through with exposure. So would I consider him soft? I can't answer that without working/seeing him first hand. 

One dog that's coming to mind I wouldn't call handler sensitive, but correction soft. Now I think this dog is soft more to raising than genetics. I've known this dog it's whole life. I worked both it's parents and some of it's siblings. Now this dog is babied and treated like a princess. Never in trouble or physically corrected. When working the dog on an e-collar, the dog on 6 (dogtra 1900) freaks out and acts like it's life is over. My wife corrected it on a flat collar and you would think the dog was being beat. To me that's a soft dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Let's take "pain" out of the equation because you can correct without having "pain" and the reaction I see when the remote is in my hand vs in the hand of my TD is not even comparable. When he knows the correction is coming from me, it is a different level of reaction from him.
> 
> How do you feel "soft" correlates to pressure? (maybe that's the word that stuck out in mycobraracr's post for me?)
> 
> ...



When I used the word pressure, I'm not talking about physical pressure or even pressure from a decoy/helper. I'm referring to things like pressure of the unknown, new things and situations. Pressure in obedience (or any phase) to not screw up and get a correction. Or pressure from the correction. All these things can tell us a lot about a dog. Why when I'm evaluating a dog or am looking into it, what I see on a sport field (any sport) is only part of the equation.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You have to evaluate hardness and softness in the absence of obedience. It has to be measured in response to aversive stimuli when they don't know or think they know how to avoid or turn it off otherwise you begin to blur the line between hardness and softness (general sensitivity to aversive stimuli) with handler sensitivity. Line pressure or prong pop response on a dog that understands loose leash behavior isn't a good baseline. You can't look at response in terms of did they comply or not by itself. I'd look more toward do they suppress? Do they become alarmed? Do they shrug it off? 

When looking for a working level with a dog that hasn't seen ecollar yet is a good time to see it objectively. A general idea is seen when training, period, but the more OB and understanding a dog has of to aversive the more the line blurs between obedience handler sensitivity and hardness or insensitivity level of the dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> When I used the word pressure, I'm not talking about physical pressure or even pressure from a decoy/helper. I'm referring to things like pressure of the unknown, new things and situations. Pressure in obedience (or any phase) to not screw up and get a correction. Or pressure from the correction. All these things can tell us a lot about a dog. Why when I'm evaluating a dog or am looking into it, what I see on a sport field (any sport) is only part of the equation.


Yup def this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> To me a soft dog is one that doesn't handle corrections or pressure from more than just the handler. Now exposure can have an affect on this as well IMO. ....
> 
> One dog that's coming to mind I wouldn't call handler sensitive, but correction soft. Now I think this dog is soft more to raising than genetics. I've known this dog it's whole life. I worked both it's parents and some of it's siblings. Now this dog is babied and treated like a princess. Never in trouble or physically corrected


Which leads to the subject of letting your dog work thru stress! 

I've watched one dog that all but hid behind the handler. This dog is not genetically soft. In fact, these are dogs you could beat with that 2x4. But because the dog had been babied and had never been allowed to work thru stress in any situation, when pressure was put on him he fell apart.

I think that also goes for trainer and helpers. I see my dog make much more progress when he has to work thru the stress and he has to learn to do it on his own. The more stress you put on him, the better he gets.

People create learned helplessness, i.e. soft, by never pressuring the dogs and letting them work thru the stress of a situation.

(and as a note...the helper I'm working with now may have told me to stop babying mine :surprise


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ on a sidenote, I think that's exactly what happens with some of the dogs that I work with. I hate to say "babied" but the truth is that many of them are. aside from that tho - we do have more experienced puppy raisers who know better but by the nature of raisers responsibilities - service dogs in training are incredibly protected. then... they come back for formal training and that's where they make the cut or they don't. despite socialization on top of socialization dogs will get dropped for fearful reactions towards strange objects or traffic sensitivity or other things that haven't been observed in the previous 16 months and sometimes are never observed once the pup goes home. the raisers are always shocked but add some pressure and the truth comes out.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

This sounds more like a confidence/exposure issue and not because the dog is soft.


Jax08 said:


> Which leads to the subject of letting your dog work thru stress!
> 
> I've watched one dog that all but hid behind the handler. This dog is not genetically soft. In fact, these are dogs you could beat with that 2x4. But because the dog had been babied and had never been allowed to work thru stress in any situation, when pressure was put on him he fell apart.
> 
> ...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Hector3 said:


> This sounds more like a confidence/exposure issue and not because the dog is soft.


It's both. A friend trains service dogs and one promising dog was released from the program because it was afraid of stuffed animals. It should have been exposed prior to going to "college" but a stable dog would have shown some curiosity and then moved on. This dog refused to walk past a large stuffed toy.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Which leads to the subject of letting your dog work thru stress!
> 
> I've watched one dog that all but hid behind the handler. This dog is not genetically soft. In fact, these are dogs you could beat with that 2x4. But because the dog had been babied and had never been allowed to work thru stress in any situation, when pressure was put on him he fell apart.
> 
> ...



Yes!!!! Yes!!!! Yes!!!!! We have to work our dogs through stress!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hector3 said:


> This sounds more like a confidence/exposure issue and not because the dog is soft.


I partially agree. My point is that by not allowing the dogs to work thru stress, regardless of what they are exposed to, that they don't gain confidence and the handler creates a soft dog...in a dog that may not be genetically soft. Which I believe is in agreement with the situation mycobraracr described above.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

yes... nature vs nurture. a genetically soft dog can still rise to the occasion, just, different steps have to be taken to develop their confidence. included in that is allowing a dog to work thru stress but also recognizing when and how to best use those opportunities w/o overwhelming them.

for me, softer dogs take more time, work and skill.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

So a dog that'll take guns, thunder, fireworks, walking through a noisy machine shop, ride in an excavator bucket ect.. with no hesitation/issues... But withers a bit with a mild correction is a soft dog?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ I would say that's an environmentally sound dog. can they be soft, yes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

as far as softness goes, IMO it is a dog that is somewhat handler sensitive, not wanting to fail, and a dog that isn't as pushy as dogs that are not soft. Seldom do they need correcting because they don't put themselves in positions to need correction. So then pressure isn't really ever applied because the dog is generally going to comply with what is asked. Yet, the dog won't be strong in phases/exercises that is more about independent thinking and doing.
It isn't about lacking confidence, but the dogs personality is mostly in pleasing and being correct to the point that it may stress up or down depending on the handling. Being dependent on the handler for direction is common as well. 
Soft dogs can be great as obedience or agility prospects, but tracking with the line let out or pushing the helper to fight isn't going to be strong. 
This isn't true for all softer temperamented dogs, but is what I have seen with some.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

That's a training issue in the socialization area, not because the dog is soft. A handler soft dog in my opinion is a dog taking a verbal correction or spatial pressure from its handler seriously as in dropping to the ground, making itself smaller, squinty a lot, giving off lots of submissive signals. A dog you describe where a dog is insecure and might be flighty or quick to react to stimuli is not a soft dog, more like nervy, reactive, or fearful. I have a soft, nervy dog with high defense drive, but undesired behaviors can be shut down verbally. It could be a relationship thing too. The relationship may increase the softness in the dog to handler response. 


Jax08 said:


> I partially agree. My point is that by not allowing the dogs to work thru stress, regardless of what they are exposed to, that they don't gain confidence and the handler creates a soft dog...in a dog that may not be genetically soft. Which I believe is in agreement with the situation mycobraracr described above.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

If you make that split, then it sounds like a training term. If you eliminate environmental stressors which some dogs sail through with little noticeable reaction then your not including how the dog reacts to stress overall only in a training situation???


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hector3 said:


> That's a training issue in the socialization area, not because the dog is soft. A handler soft dog in my opinion is a dog taking a verbal correction or spatial pressure from its handler seriously as in dropping to the ground, making itself smaller, squinty a lot, giving off lots of submissive signals.* A dog you describe where a dog is insecure and might be flighty or quick to react to stimuli is not a soft dog, more like nervy, reactive, or fearful*. I have a soft, nervy dog with high defense drive, but undesired behaviors can be shut down verbally. It could be a relationship thing too. The relationship may increase the softness in the dog to handler response.


That is not what I described at all. Not once did I say insecure or flighty or nervy or reactive or fearful dog. Or even describe one like that

And you are missing my point in that specific post. Never allowing the dog to learn how to work thru stress creates learned helplessness. That can create "softness" in a dog that otherwise isn't.



> It could be a relationship thing too. The relationship may increase the softness in the dog to handler response.


Yes! This is what my point is! Increase or create. In the case I saw, the handler created it. The dog is environmentally sound and a harder dog. But he was never allowed to work thru stress or pressure.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hector3 said:


> That's a training issue in the socialization area, not because the dog is soft. A handler soft dog in my opinion is a dog taking a verbal correction or spatial pressure from its handler seriously as in dropping to the ground, making itself smaller, squinty a lot, giving off lots of submissive signals. A dog you describe where a dog is insecure and might be flighty or quick to react to stimuli is not a soft dog, more like nervy, reactive, or fearful. I have a soft, nervy dog with high defense drive, but undesired behaviors can be shut down verbally. It could be a relationship thing too. The relationship may increase the softness in the dog to handler response.


Think about removing you and training from it. When I think of a soft dog, I'm thinking strictly their temperament. What he feels pressured by, he will always feel pressured by. He may be able to get through if his drive is kept up, but without that, he won't.

A harder dog, the next time you bring what pressured him last time, its not pressure to him this time. He knows he can beat it, or work through it, whatever your doing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> When I think of a soft dog, I'm thinking strictly their temperament. What he feels pressured by, he will always feel pressured by. *He may be able to get through if his drive is kept up, but without that, he won't*.


exactly...the drive state will carry the dog. Like going over the wall for a retrieve, fast and furious in drive, but coming back may not be happening because the dog thinks instead of does!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> How does this differ from handler sensitive? Can a dog be hard and handler sensitive? Or be mistaken for soft because they are handler sensitive?


I see handler sensitive as being soft to the handler, but a dog that is resilient will bounce back from corrections easily. A dog that is soft to the handler can be extremely pleasant to handle as long as they are resilient and compliant. In IPO or other work a dog that is handler soft can also be hard in the work and able to handle pressure. That make sense? LOL

Then we have the dog that is soft and not resilient or compliant or the one that is soft in the work and can't handle pressure. This dog is useless for work.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Compliant is a good word.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I see handler sensitive as being soft to the handler, but a dog that is resilient will bounce back from corrections easily. A dog that is soft to the handler can be extremely pleasant to handle as long as they are resilient and compliant. In IPO or other work a dog that is handler soft can also be hard in the work and able to handle pressure. That make sense? LOL
> 
> Then we have the dog that is soft and not resilient or compliant or the one that is soft in the work and can't handle pressure. This dog is useless for work.


Actually perfect sense! LOL Short, sweet, to the point.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

" What is a soft dog?"......Well, mine is... after a shampoo and shower with Beauty Bitch GSD Downy Demulcent Top Secret Formulation shampoo.........duh.


SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

All those titles are from grooming G?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Compliant as in... Being biddable??


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> All those titles are from grooming G?



Could be....but I'm coming up short on converting the existing acronyms....they were originally concocted for Canine Scholastic Aptitude Test and Canine American College Testing scores...but give me some time and I could easily apply them to grooming titles.....which gives me food for thought when that thread crosses my path.

SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Soft dog implies generally a sensitive dog in all respects. Sensitive to corrections, sensitive to anger sometimes sensitive to environmental stressors. 

Handler sensitive for me is a dog that is concerned about his handler's emotion towards him/her. For this type of dog if you get angry with them they will in most cases go flat and show submissive type behaviours. In certain cases you can sometimes get handler aggression. In many cases, these dogs can actually handle quite heavy physical corrections as being handler soft has nothing to do with pain tolerance or resilience.

I have a female Mal right now for breeding that is handler soft which is actually very common in the breed. I still bought her because her protection is excellent, she can take a ton of pressure, excellent drive and environmentally stable. 

Since I believe a dog should be able to handle stress and corrections from the handler without looking down, I am simply putting a little time into teaching her to become active and pushy in response to a physical correction or a threatening posture from the handler.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Do most "soft dogs" become significantly more "hard", once they are over threshold?

SuperG


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have a dog who is handler soft in tracking and obedience, but also extremely compliant, willing to learn and work with me. I had to learn to work her a different way than some of my previous dogs. She will get confused and not work well if I get frustrated or annoyed. In protection she is easy to handle, but very hard both to the helper and to me. In protection she is working out of a different drive. If she wasn't so willing in the other two phases and so fun to work in protection I would have not bothered training her in IPO. 

A soft dog that is not willing/compliant is a nightmare to work in any serious sport or area of work. They tend to either shut down, go into avoidance, or you spend your time slamming your head into a wall trying to get them to work.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm curious... SV are you still around and has your question been answered? noticing that this is in the general behavior forum, but looking at the direction of the replies, I'm wondering if any of this applies?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think we have answered her question about soft dogs while giving examples from areas of experience. 



> Is it a "sensitive dog"? One you have to be careful in basic training with so they don't get scared or defensive and "shut down". Or, is it a dog that does not respond well to the use of a chain or whip?


Depends on the dog. Yes, it can be a sensitive dog, but it doesn't always mean they get scared, shut down or get defensive. You can have a dog that is handler hard, but weak or soft in areas of work. You can have a dog that is very strong in the work, but is soft and sensitive to the handler and needs a lighter touch. 



> I see the term used here and in a less than positive manner sometimes or "one that takes special handling". I guess I've never met a "soft dog" in the GSD line that hadn't been abused in some way by a previous handler. If it's a genetic issue - I would assume that's another flaw on the current lines.


Saying a soft dog has been abused is often an excuse to explain away a genetic weakness and that excuse is used more often for dogs that are submissive. Not all soft dogs are submissive. A soft dog that is resilient can be a very strong dog, just super easy to handle. Yes, it all has a genetic basis.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Fodder - Thanks for asking. Post #55 by Ihczth's was the breakthru explanation for me. I asked because the term is sometimes used here and on training tapes. The explanations of motivations behind a "soft dog" helped me to understand how there can be seemingly nothing that bothers a dog yet they can be sensitive to corrections - and that also there are variations. 

I had in my mind that a "Soft Dog" might also be liable to exhibit all the traits not desired in the GSD breed, including nervousness, fear and inability to settle, be harder to train - in other words a bag of nerves.

I asked because I've made 2 correction mistakes with my dog in the last year that caused her to avoid me in a certain situation. I fixed the 1st one and and am working on fixing this most recent one. So I needed to understand more about this. I was seeking behavior explanation but the training posts discussed this also so I got what I needed. I don't want to go into any detail. I have a good handle on it now and a better understanding so I hopefully don't make a 3rd mistake

It seemed to me to be such an oxymoron to have a brave and fearless dog but one that apparently, at least on a two occasions - I really put a dent in her style with a mild verbal correction.:surprise:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The worst thing you can do to soft, sensitive or whatever dog is let them escape by throwing stress behaviours and shutting down. If you pressure / correct a dog accidentally or on purpose and they try to shut down, bolt, alligator roll or any other form of behaviour other then what has been asked of them and you stop or give up you have just taught the dog exactly the wrong thing.

When I run into that type of thing, I will repeat the situation relentlessly until the dog shows the correct response to the pressure even if the dog is as soft as warm butter. 

Stress and fearful behaviours only persist if they are reinforced. (Example: You force down a dog: Tell the dog "down" and apply downward pressure on the lead until the dog downs. I do this with all my pet clients, by far the fastest and most reliable way to teach the down. Not uncommon for some dogs to scream and act like your cutting off a body part before finally giving to the pressure and making a down. Afterwards, the more sensitive type might show some nervous shy behaviour around the handler. If the handler ignores this and repeats the exercise until the dog shows the behaviour reliably and also uses appropriate reinforcers to mark the desired behaviour the stress will quickly dissappear. 
If the handler avoids that exercise in the future or avoids using the pressure as necessary to ensure the dogs reliability then the stress and fearful behaviours are much more likely to persist.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It's not that. I do persist once I commit. That's the only way....

The first time I blew it was a year ago (while working on her poop eating habit). She was stopping poop eating (after hours of work) and just like basic commands, I was weaning her off redirect,rewards.... she seemed ready like all the other training.... I let her in one day and she was licking with her tongue like she'd been eating peanut butter - only- there's no peanut butter in my yard.... I said "what have you been eating! Bad!" and that did it...for the next 5 months, when she would come in she would put her ears back and curl her tail under when she came in.....even though she hadn't been eating her poop. 

I had to go back in training.... watch her poop, call her with me into the house and start the "party/reward" process over again. It worked but took a few of months to get it gone. Bad timing on my part but -Soft dog?.... first time I saw that....

This new one - she, after being trustworthy for 1.5 years in the house, suddenly started jumping up on my computer/desk area when I leave the house and taking stuff. The first time, I made the huge error of having a 1/2 chocolate bar there. I knew this was going to be difficult, so I'd go out and come back in 30 seconds later so I could catch her in the act and correct her.

Result; Last 3 weeks...when I come home - she no longer greets me at the door...she's hiding in the kitchen and yea - she's been up around my computer..... so, this is why I was trying to look deeper. I've given her some very hard corrections and she takes them with a grain of salt (but learns (with the HS) but in the house, she's always been a dream. 

So, now when I come in and she's not there, I just say "Where's my dog? where is Summer? Where's my good girl? and she will come out to greet me but in a submissive posture....

So, maybe I have a soft dog - partially (she's prong savvy and just don't care in some situations - she'll take the pain for the drive rush with prey).... My next step, in a couple of more days of positive reinforcement is going to be go give her a negative one that is not associated with me.... She's going to to put her paws on my desk/computer area and it's going to be lined with pot lids. The area rug will be pulled back so they make a heck of a noise on the hardwood floor.... I did this with her in the kitchen when she was 4 mos old and she has never jumped up there again....

My reluctance to post the particulars is for a reason. I hope this doesn't end up as another one of "those" threads. Two years of constant condemnation by some and constant support by others seems to dictate the outcome of a successful thread that may get good replies and help others or get shut down. We'll see. Yes - I need it sugar coated or I won't listen & learn.


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## Suzie Johnson (May 25, 2016)

Interesting post! I sure learned something.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I've learned a lot as well...but would still like to know....when the dog has lost its crap and is beyond its threshold...is there a discernible difference in how the dog reacts to all these "sensitivities" regardless of the dog being soft or hard and any associated prolonged malaise it might suffer from the adequate measure to bring the dog back down to SOP?

SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I've learned a lot as well...but would still like to know....when the dog has lost its crap and is beyond its threshold...is there a discernible difference in how the dog reacts to all these "sensitivities" regardless of the dog being soft or hard and any associated prolonged malaise it might suffer from the adequate measure to bring the dog back down to SOP?
> 
> SuperG


A harder dog will recover from the adequate measures in a more discernible way. The softer dog, you may notice apprehension about going any where near where you applied them. Something like if a dog is barking as you walk by and your dog lunges that direction, so you get adequate on her, or maybe even a little less then adequate, you may see her tail tucked or any avoidance is going to look like she's really dejected.

The harder dog may look away very obviously from the fence and to you, or may not show any avoidance or anything at all, just walk right past unless you were less then adequate, then he may just figure he can lunge at the fence again. But his attitude won't be that tucked tail, please don't adequate me again. Of course there's everything in between because their temperaments aren't just one single thing or the other, and I think sensitive and soft go pretty closely together, but it'll be obvious to you. And I should say too, adequate could be different for both dogs or the same, although for different reasons. Kinda like a soft dog will only take a soft correction because that's what it can handle, a harder dog may only need a soft correction, cause that's all he needs. This is too much to think about G.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Thanks Steve.....

You used a perfect example for the situation I have experienced with my current dog. I guess my dog might be a bit harder than I presumed at times....seems it can be specific to the dog's wiring as well as the situation at times...along with impact made via a correction for a specific event. If my dog charges the fence in the backyard when the neighbor's dogs are at the fence....I say "off" and take a few steps in her direction...she immediately breaks off the attempt but does return in a fashion somewhat similar to your example " you may see her tail tucked or any avoidance is going to look like she's really dejected." My dog seems pretty soft in this situation. However, I have never seen this behavior while we are out and about on lead encountering other dogs... she has learned her lessons of proper conduct in this environment more with the " may look away very obviously from the fence and to you, or may not show any avoidance or anything at all, just walk right past unless you were less then adequate, then he may just figure he can lunge at the fence again. But his attitude won't be that tucked tail, please don't adequate me again" behavior. My dog seems pretty hard in this situation.

Perhaps, I just made more impact with the backyard fence charging corrections than I assumed????

Yes, a lot to think about.

Thanks,


SuperG


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