# What's okay and what's not okay



## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

So from the recent threads here, a few questions have sparked in my mind. Now I'm by far no behavioral or dog expert.
This is my first gsd and really my first dog. 
I've owned horses in the past.

Now I have to a degree a reactive dog. If he sees a bigger dog she will raise her hackles. I'm 21 and don't have kids and don't know anyone with kids so he hasn't been extensively socialized with kids. 
With people I tend to keep her at a distance just because I'm super paranoid of the puppy she used to be. 
I can take her in public but never had kids jump on her or anything. I don't normally let people pet her unless they just do it anyway and I can't get a body block in. She has never bit or offered to bite.
I made a rookie mistake during a camping trip and had about 10 kids swarm her making sharp movements and quick ones near her face as she was in a down. She kept backing up but didn't bark or bite or lunge.
I guess my question is this. Dogs are animals. Yes we domesticated them but I see a lot on this board where our dogs should be bomb proof so to speak or shouldn't be allowed in public. To me that means my dog is dangerous. 
Even though my dog gets scared she has never offered to bite lunge or acted like it since we have worked and worked. 
Now with horses I have seen some that were broke to ride and have bucked here and there despite the fact that they know not to. Where it be a saddle issue or spooking at something.
Should they not be ridden or trusted because they don't put up with a saddle pinch or something uncomfortable? 
Should a domesticated animal such as a horse or dog put up with everything and anything because we domesticated them even though both are animals and have minds of their own?
What is your take? Are animals supposed to think like a human so to speak and be bombproof through everything and tolerate everything?
Sometimes I feel like I expect too much out of my dog and don't let her go places because I'm afraid of what could happen even though she has never done anything agressive besides bark and she hasn't done that in over a year. 
How do you properly teach a dog to be okay with kids crawling on them and people petting them without having "Ginny pigs" or taking a non bombproof dog in public?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

bombproof (if they really are bombproof) is a matter of putting your dog
in a lot of different situations. i think starting when they're young is
best way to go.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Do you have a trainer? If you don't, you need to get one. Reactive dogs can be managed. However, their temperament is flawed. I don't know how old your dog is now (that would be good to know) but essentially once they reach maturity they will have 2 modes when they are reactive... fight of flight. So far your dog hasn't gone into fight mode. I wouldn't continue to bet on that horse, though. If your dog is fearful of children, and you can't keep kids away from her then the dog should be muzzled when out. You don't (and can't) know when she'll flip from flight to fight. A trainer can help you read her better, do an assessment of her behaviors, and give you a plan of action. You need one that's well versed in GSD behavioral issues. It's too bad that you ended up with a reactive dog as your first GSD. They are a great breed that's been terribly exploited by idiots who don't know what they're doing. They breed dogs that are mismatched genetically or fear aggressive dogs and that's what you end up with... fear aggressive litters.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm *not* ok with kids crawling on my dog, lol. That's way beyond bombproof, IMO. Even if my dog didn't mind, I'd still have a problem with it myself. I'm not very tolerant of other people's unruly children, I guess. I don't mind the petting, but that's because my dog likes the attention. And barking is a normal thing that dogs do, so I don't mind if my dog barks - as long as he can be quiet when I ask.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

My dog is 2.5 yrs old. I've had her since I was 19. We had a trainer. She's been thru basic OB, advanced OB, and open/ utility OB we got her at 4 months passed the prime socialization oppurtunities but have still socialized her every oppurtunity I've had. 
We've gone to shopping centers and walked around, pet stores, parks, etc. 
her fear of large dogs is partly my fault. In theory she should be able to bounce back from things. I took her to the dog park a few times thinking it would be great for socialization. She got beat up a few times by large dogs. 
Every time we go out she's not reactive. 
Actually she hasn't "reacted" to anything in quite some time. 
I moved to the city about 6 months ago to a large apartment complex. She had to do a meet and greet with the office manager. And she passed, let him pet her.
We go for walks outside the complex with people jogging past, riding bikes, people with kids and other dogs, not a peep.
We go to the pet store on Saturdays when they have adoption events with over 100 dogs and over 150 people without a peep. 
We have worked very hard on a solid "leave it" 
I just havent moved from watching from afar to having people start coming up to us and putting they're hands on her. We can be approached by people and we can talk and she's fine. 
Her main reaction and really her only one is when someone looks in her eyes. 
Someone can talk to her without looking in her eyes and she's fine
If they stare her down, she barks. 
The only way I see to out train that if you can is just have people do it and get her used to it but I don't want to just ask people to do it. 
I don't feel she needs a muzzle. When she was 7 months old and barked at everything and everyone within 50 ft, yes she did. 
When we are out she is in a heel always with a prong or martingale. 
I haven't found a good trainer here as the reactive dog class I found uses e collars and she 
is a soft dog and I don't want to use one on her. 
Plus training up here is double what it is where I used to live and I'm not comfortable with just anyone. 
The main thing is I haven't taken the next step of introducing people petting her because I'm nervous of what could happen. So I just say no and keep walking. 
We almost passed our CGC about a yr ago but she whinned to much at the leave us for 3 minutes and got excited at greet the dog. 
She isn't the same dog as she was when we first put her in training I just haven't found a comfort zone yet of having people approach and pet because it isn't a controlled environment. 
But I don't think every time I take her out she is going to go ballistic on someone or something. She loves car rides and going places and camping.
When she's been around kids the few times and it wasn't a large pack of them she was fine. She played fetch with a small child at the dog park and my BFs niece could pet her and she her body language wasn't I'm just tolerating this I'm secretly a nervous reck or anything.
I think she was just overwhelmed by 10-12 kids swarming her which needs work because I'm sure it could happen again but as far as when we are out people leave us alone. 
Not many ask to pet or come up to pet. And I always have treats on hand to give from a distance.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It sounds like you've one pretty good with her and as she's matured, you've exposed her to all these different situations that she's fine with them. Kudo's to you

I hear you on introducing people to her, it's a catch 22, you want to, but dont know what her reaction will be, so why chance it?

Is there a reason you 'want' people/strangers to pet her? I mean is it going to change her whole world if she has strangers fawning all over her? It sounds like she's happy and excepting of the way things are.

A pack of kids CAN be overwhelming to a young dog, staring at a dog can be viewed as a challenge, so some may not appreciate that either.

I would just keep socializing taking her everywhere you can, as you've been doing.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

You sound like you've done lots of work with her, and kudos to you!!! I'm sure your dog appreciates it!

Bombproof - My dog has a bombproof recall and leave it ... I needed those two to be bombproof b/c she is off leash a lot. 

Kids - I personally don't have a lot of tolerance for kids (ok, many 1% tolerance) and I don't let any kids come up and pet my dog. Most of them are too hyper, waving their arms, talking in that high-pitched voice that grates on my nerves. It bugs ME to no end, I can just imagine what's going through her mind. 

Yesterday at the off leash park a young girl, about 12, very politely asked me if she could pet my dog. I asked her what the rules were to approach a dog, she told me - she was dead on! I called Kyleigh over and introduced Kyleigh to her, and the young girl pet her, and spoke quietly to her. No issues at all. This is the ONLY time I will let a child pet Kyleigh. 

In regards to introducing her to other people, I would ask friends if they would be willing to help you out. Give them the rules (no direct eye contact, no waving arms, no high-pitched voice, etc.) and do it somewhere other than your house. Make the contact short and sweet - 15-30 seconds, and then move on. End each "intro" in a positive manner and she'll realize (as will you) that meeting new people is easy. 

For you - you WILL need to relax your guard. If you're nervous, she knows it and will pick up on it! Neither of you can move forward, if you're still stuck in the past! Easier said than done, but a very necessary step!

A trainer, albeit expensive, can also be a life saver in the end. Would you rather spend $300 on a trainer / behavioural assessment that will benefit your dog for life? Or $5000 in court defending your dog b/c you misread it and something happened? I'm not trying to scare you ... but you're right - dogs are animals. In flight or fight, if flight is taken away (being on a leash), and if the "threat" is serious enough in the dog's mind, it MIGHT bite. 

Good luck


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's really the risk you want to take. You know your dog doesn't like being in social situations, so why push it? But there are a lot of people that get a dog, might not have the best nerves, and still put it in those kinds of situations where its a danger to everyone around it. You know what happens when that dog reacts to a kid coming out of no where and hugging it? Well...the kid gets bit, the dog gets put down, the owner has a lawsuit on their hands trying to prove that a 20 lb child scared an 80 lb dog...good luck.

Bombproof doesn't have to mean your dog, it can mean your dog can handle most situations and then you will handle the rest of them by not putting your dog in those situations. I'm lucky, my dog can deal with anything, and yes I mean anything. Kids have run up to him, hugged him, pet him a little too hard, but he doesn't flinch. If anything he just wants to play with them.

So in your example...a horse that has bucked someone off. Well you can take the risk to ride it, but if you're operating a riding farm or something where outsiders are riding I wouldn't suggest putting a stranger on that horse. A dog, that can react in a bad way is just like that, do you really want to take the risk and put it near someone that can cause you more problems than its worth? It's a risk/reward thing. It's awesome to take your dog to fairs/festivals/camp sites, but that one time your dog reacts to a child, you might not have a dog anymore (you is a general you, not OP).


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't mean to be rude here but it sounds like you are more reactive then your dog. I think you worry to much. That could be transmitting to your dog. I would do what everyone suggested, just keep socializing her and stay alert for situations. I've owned horses all my adult life too. I personally don't think horses think like dogs. Horses, for the most part, don't form attachments that dogs do. My horses were always happy to see me but if I didn't show up, as long and they had food, water, comfortable living conditions, and other horses it didn't really bother them if I DIDN'T show up. This breed is very owner and home orientated. One of my GSDs got a nasty virus one time. I couldn't understand why my vet didn't just keep her at the clinic instead of sending her home with me. My very wise vet said," Rosemary, ( That's my name BTW ) German shepherds are big powerful dogs but take them away from their home and they give up and die. I've seen it happen over and over again."


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I am nervous. I'm a nervous nelly. Not as bad as I used to be and sometimes I don't think I give her enough credit.
I don't want to be one of those people whose dog can't be pet.
I love taking her places and she loves going. I don't want her to be labeled as a bad gsd. I contacted a different trainer and waiting to here back. 
My other trainer didn't seem to concerned with her behavior so I'm getting a second opinion.
I don't want to risk anything because people are sue happy and I'm very paranoid about that. I want to correct this problem and we have been working hard I just want to get her thru this next step and over this last hurdle.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

DTS said:


> *I am nervous. I'm a nervous nelly. Not as bad as I used to be* and sometimes I don't think I give her enough credit.
> I don't want to be one of those people whose dog can't be pet.
> I love taking her places and she loves going. I don't want her to be labeled as a bad gsd. I contacted a different trainer and waiting to here back.
> My other trainer didn't seem to concerned with her behavior so I'm getting a second opinion.
> I don't want to risk anything because people are sue happy and I'm very paranoid about that. I want to correct this problem and we have been working hard I just want to get her thru this next step and over this last hurdle.


Your dog is picking up on this, you have to practice "CONFIDENCE" even if your not, you have to *act 100% sure of yourself*. Your dog is about the same age as Lakota. I don't have children so she hasn't been exposed to many, but I can walk her thru a jammed packed crowded fair and select people to meet. Of course I always worry in the back of my mind but I'm not going to let her know that.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Now it's in the back of my mind I guess I should have worded it better. 
I hate to go back to horses since they are different but horses can pick up on fear. I mainly watch everyone at all times while out and body block, walk away, etc. 
a year and a half ago, I was so embarrassed I hated getting out of the car at training. 
I constantly worried about what everyone thought. 
Now, I just explain the situation to people.
We are a work in progress. I'm trying to make an attempt to better my dog even though its a catch 22. I'm just torn I guess.
Hopefully the prospective new trainer will have some ideas.
But basically I need to keep my dog out of public for everyone's safety


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah..you've hit a personal nerve with me. There is no such thing as a "Bombproof" animal. EVER. There are stronger nerved animals that are unlikely to react, but they are still animals and can react. 

I hate when someone advertises a horse as "bombproof". A reputable equestrian will never offer a horse as bombproof. 

A responsible dog owner will never assume that their dog will not react.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Ah..you've hit a personal nerve with me. There is no such thing as a "Bombproof" animal. EVER. There are stronger nerved animals that are unlikely to react, but they are still animals and can react.
> 
> I hate when someone advertises a horse as "bombproof". A reputable equestrian will never offer a horse as bombproof.
> 
> A responsible dog owner will never assume that their dog will not react.


This is what I'm trying to figure out. Where do you draw the line between too agressive for public and acceptable with room for improvement. 
I've never owned a "bombproof" animal. My horses were green and I learned their quicks, triggers, and language. 
I'm doing the same with my dog. Trying to learn what sets her off, her body language so I know. 
But I also try to be over protective. Walking away when I see kids body blocking when someone gets to close. Using and constantly practicing leave it. 
Always bringing treats and trying to make each experience positive. 
Bottom line I want to get her to be a great dog without putting anyone in harms way. I'm just unsure of how to do that.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

DTS said:


> Now it's in the back of my mind I guess I should have worded it better.
> *I hate to go back to horses since they are different but horses can pick up on fear.* I mainly watch everyone at all times while out and body block, walk away, etc.
> a year and a half ago, I was so embarrassed I hated getting out of the car at training.
> *I constantly worried about what everyone thought*.
> ...


I've been around horses my whole life and I also make the comparison, the same but different. When you get as old as me you learn to not care so much about what other people think. I'm still a work in progress. You sound like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

kiya said:


> I've been around horses my whole life and I also make the comparison, the same but different. *When you get as old as me you learn to not care so much about what other people think.* I'm still a work in progress. You sound like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders.


I'm with Carolyn on this as well. We are all a work in progress. 

The fact that you are doing your very best for your dog puts you way ahead of the curve, in my book. (IMO)

Again, IMO, having had horses and learning to read & look for body language with your dog gives you an advantage. It takes some people years to learn the ability to do that. 

I have a dog who is very aloof. He pretty much ignores everyone. This makes him difficult to read sometimes because he doesn't show stress levels. I take him out with me, but I never take him anywhere that I can't watch him every moment. If I'm in a store and there is a crowded lane, I'll go down another. When he becomes a magnet to children, I remove him. If we are at home and I have guests (at home) and I can't keep an eagle eye on him, I'll kennel him. 

I admit, I use the halti on him. Mostly (now) because people think it's a muzzle and won't come near him. But it also gives me control should he decide to lunge or whip his head at someone to bite. He's never offered, never growled in public. But he is no social butterfly. 

In the same way you wouldn't ride your fractious horse in the middle of a parade. You respect your animals limitations. But in order to find out what they are, you have to keep the public and your animal safe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you have a great dog, and you have worked with your dog. 

Good for you, that is awesome, congratulations. 

It is a matter of how much liability you are willing to accept. You can take your dog out and if things look to be getting crowded or hairy, walk the dog away, and keep a bit of a buffer zone. No dog should have to be swarmed over. 

There are things you can do to decrease the likelihood of your dog ever reacting, and you have already done some of them. Taking the dog to group training classes is awesome because you work your dog around other dogs and their people. You can get a feel for who among them are dog people that you might want your dog to be able to be around more, and who to avoid. Dog people are a funny breed. Most are very willing to help socialize dogs and most of them are unlikely to do anything utterly stupid, but again, you have to watch and choose.

If you have just one dog, just keep going to classes with her. Who cares if you have been through basic more than once. Just keep going. Through training, our dogs learn to rely on us to make the decisions, and we learn to trust the dog. 

I, personally, would not muzzle this dog. If she was swarmed by a bunch of kids and just backed up, then the chances are very good that she is very unlikely to snap at or bite a kid that gets too close. You have to manage her so that she does not get into a situation where she feels like she must back up, but that shouldn't really be too difficult. Long before you have a group of kids on top of her, you should be able to get her out of that situation.

I think most people are a little more realistic about horses. Horses can step on, kick, bite, as well as throw you, as I am sure you know. It seems like people still bring these horses to horse shows and fairs, and they may just put a sign on the door of the stall not to pet, etc. I think people expect to watch their kids closer around horses than they do around dogs. 

Dog classes and dog shows helped me gain the confidence my dogs needed me to have to take them around people. I still don't let just anyone come up to them. No reason. Same with horses, do people let everyone and anyone pet them, or ride them? No. 

I have learned to turn people away with just a look apparently. Last week my 5/6 year old nieces and I took Cujo to the play ground. We were the only ones there for a while, and Cujo had never been. So he was getting used them swinging around and climbing on things, and was doing fine. When a family with a couple of toddlers showed up, we stayed on the big climbing thing, and I just kept Cujo on leash. At one point the little boy come running over, and I felt Cujo was doing enough, and shifted him behind me, and looked at the kid. Poor thing, stopped in his tracks and went back to the other climby thing. 

I decided shortly after at that point that we had been there long enough and gathered my girls and headed off. Cujo is not my dog, he is my parents dog, and though I have known him since he was born, I am not willing to let other people's kids have free access to him. 

Dogs really do not _need _to go everywhere with us. They are generally perfectly happy to stay home while we take a trip to grandma's or spend the evening playing cards with friends. They are always ready to head out with us, but that doesn't mean they should go everywhere. I find that I can relax more in some situations if I leave the critters home, and then its not all about me and my dog, then I am free to pay attention to the humans in my life.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DTS said:


> This is what I'm trying to figure out. Where do you draw the line between too agressive for public and acceptable with room for improvement.


When people start looking at you funny because your dog freaks out at things that walk by...its probably not alright for your dog to be there. Yes, we all can say "you shouldn't care what people think" but at the end of the day, if you have a dog that barks at things that walk by it you're kind of ruining the fun for everyone else that now has to worry about your dog doing something.

Last year we took my boy to a pet store that was having a "sit on santa's lap" thing. There are a bunch of dogs there (way more than usual) and with small aisles it got difficult keeping the dogs away from each other. But that being said all the dogs were just fine and friendly with one another. Then a lady comes in with a boxer...the dog was lunging and snapping at every single dog it walked by. At one point the lady couldn't hold it back anymore and it got in a fight with another dog that was quickly broken up. So here is the story...someone wants their dog to be just like everyone else's "stronger nerved" dogs and I completely understand that. But when they put their wants/needs in front of everyone else's they're ruining the fun for everyone else. It's that one aggressive dog in the dog park...the owner doesn't care, the owner doesn't mind, but the other 100 people in the park do mind and their fun is ruined by the one guy that thinks his dog has just as much right to be there as everyone else's.

I'm not saying OP's dog is this bad (I wouldn't know until I met it) so I'm just talking in generalizations. If you want to bring your dog to the fair, and your dog makes the fair more dangerous and less fun for everyone that takes a second glance at your dog, it probably shouldn't be there.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

See and that's why I'm confused. My dog doesn't bark or lunge or try and start fights. She's more of the roll on my back and pee when it comes to pack structure with small and large dogs. We can go to stores with out a peep and have done so for the past yr. and from the outside looking in, to me, of you saw her on the street she's a normal dog. She doesn't pay anyone attention and minds her own business. She might give you a look if you have a dog but I give the leave it command and she does what she's told. I give people plenty of space and we only go out now every once a month or 2. 
I don't want to ruin it for everyone nor do i feel like I'm going to socialize my dog and force her into things she isn't ready for so she can get better. 
All I want is to help her get better with baby steps.
If you saw her in a store she's like any other dog. She doesn't seek out trouble or go looking for it barking at everything that moves. 7 months old yes, today she's quiet. 
I feel like I'm in between a rock and hard place because she is no longer vocally or physically fearful no barking or anything but I remember was she used to be like and how paranoid I am that something could go wrong because this isn't the perfect world


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

DTS said:


> I feel like I'm in between a rock and hard place because *she is no longer vocally or physically fearful no barking or anything* but I remember was she used to be like and how paranoid I am that something could go wrong because this isn't the perfect world


You have done a wonderful job with her! Give both of you credit as credit is due. 

It'll never be the perfect world. You can control your girl, but you can't always control her environment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think your dog has matured a lot since seven months old. Lots of dogs are butt-heads when they are teenagers. But with training and exposure, they learn to put their faith in you, and they also learn that everything isn't so scary. I think you need to catch up to her. I think she has gotten over herself a bit. There is nothing wrong with being cautious, you should be, practice keeping a safe distance between your dogs and others (human and canine), but also practice confidence. Because if you are nervous about what your dog will do, that is transmitting right down the line. 

Think of it this way. If you boss tells you to do ABC, you go and do ABC. If your boss hesitantly tells you to do ABC, then it makes you a little hesitant too. Should I do this? What might go wrong? Why is he so worried about this? Dogs pick up on stuff, pharomones make a breath smell funny. They tell you to pop a peppermint in your mouth at the dog show, to mask the fear smell. Because WE can throw our dogs off.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Well thank you everyone for the advice or opinions. It makes sense and it helps me to bounce thoughts and ideas off people to help me get the whole picture.
I hope this trainer contacts me back and we can get help with what we need


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I read your thread with interest, and I guess my question would be: if you're uncomfortable with it, what is wrong with not letting people pet your dog? I think in the US at least we have this idea that strangers have a sort of right to pet our dogs, and if that's not okay for whatever reason then our dogs aren't "good dogs." But it's kind of crazy--makes me think of those people who think it's okay to go up and touch a pregnant woman's belly in way. My dog is my property and when he's on leash with me in public he's basically an extension of my person. If I don't want other people to touch him, then they should respect that.

Maybe it's just because I've owned some reactive dogs, and I'm usually expecting my dogs to do something (even if it's just heel) when on leash, but I very rarely let random strangers pet my dogs, even my super-friendly ones who love new people. I've had some people get upset about it, but that's their prerogative I guess--I'm always very nice about it and give them a plausible reason why not. I also don't generally ask to pet other people's dogs, although I like chat with strangers about their pets. I can admire a dog without petting it (of course if the owner invites me to, that's a different story!).

I'm uncomfortable having most strangers pet my dogs because I've seen even adults do some crazy things--one guy suddenly grabbed and twisted my poor ACD's ears hard, making my dog cry in pain and take a few days before he was comfortable being touched there again. This was just a random encounter on the street with a friendly guy who seemed fairly knowledgeable about dogs. It was bizarre. I know my dogs aren't going to bite, but I don't trust strangers to be nice to them. 

So in other words, if your dog isn't lunging/barking at people as you walk by, and she apparently doesn't bite but rather tries to escape when an unforeseen circumstance does arise (like the kids at the campground), then I don't see why you should be apprehensive about taking her out in public at all. Just tell people she is in training or whatever and don't let them pet her.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

So just an update for anyone who was reading this thread:

we saw a trainer today. She has GSDs, trains and titles in agility and other sports, and has grown up around police K9s. 
She started us on doing a front recal and jasmine picked up on that quickly.
we were off leash in an enclosed baseball field. she started by just walking on the outside of the fence. i think jasmine barked maybe once and i called her and she came. 
she then stood next to my BF outside the fence and Jasmine ignored her and was focused on the BF. She then joined us in the field. 
Jasmine excepted her and she did some commands with her and threw the ball for her. She then had us do some OB with her aorund. 
After a while Jasmine met her neutral dog. Jasmine was offleash inside the field and her dog was outside.
At first she barked w/ hackles and they did a nose to nose sniff and she began to wag her tail, play bow, and do an excited high pitched i want to play bark
Her dog was introduced inside the fence and they began to play.
We did some OB around her and her dog and we began clicker training. 
She is giving me a book to read called "catious canine" and we will continue with the clicker training, Watch me, and leave it commands
She reccomends anytime we see a dog or person to talk to her very excitedly about this new person or dog. 
im pleased with how it went. She said that she is very do able and this can be fixed with training and cosistency which i will am more than willing to do. She also suggested a certain no pull harness with the clip in the front (not too sure what it was called) so we will look into that as well and view our options on what equipment to use. She also suggested a leather leash. 
So we will begin working on this


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