# Asl/wgsl



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Can someone explain the differences? I mean personalities, drive, nerves, etc.
Please don't call me stupid. I deal primarily with rescues, mill pups, etc so the ASLs I have seen are largely disasters. And although I have looked at them I am not aware of ever having put hands on a WGSL. 
I thought ASLs had no real work ability at all, and clearly thats false. My mill pup Shadow has incredible tracking ability, insane prey drive and is now displaying signs of protective something? I have been amusing her with searching blinds, just for fun and treats like a find it game, not encouraging defensive behavior. Yesterday my helper thought he would play? and grabbed me. She doubled back so quick she almost fell and was on him in a blink. Full, hard bite. He went home with a bruised arm and ego, and an earful from me. DO NOT encourage skittish dogs to bite, ever!
I thought all WGSL had that roached back and that isn't true either, I recently stumbled on a beautiful bitch, that would make me beg for a pup from her.
So can we educate poor dumb me?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

This thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...rican-showline-german-showline-confusion.html can help.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ThanksI really am just trying to learn more. The world of well bred, or even purebred, dogs is still fairly new to me. That helps but I need more input!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Hope this helps....

How has a breed that is rather young become the most popular breed in the world? It wasn’t by chance. The answer lies in its versatility, intelligence, and devotion. The German Shepherd Dog possesses wonderful working abilities that are directly related to the special traits of this breed, such as solid nerves, easygoing behavior, eagerness to please, strong guardian instinct, and loyalty. This provides a foundation for use of the German Shepherd Dog as a watchdog, protection dog, and as a companion. Due to the high popularity of the breed, several distinct German Shepherd dog types have emerged. If you are looking for a German Shepherd puppy, you need to be aware that just because someone bred two German Shepherds, it does not necessarily mean that the offspring will have all of the wonderful characteristics that the breed is famous for. This article is intended to give you an overview of several of the most common types of GSD.
Germans take great pride in their breed. It is a national treasure. Naturally, they make sure that the dogs they breed are the best. In Germany, there are very strict rules when it comes to breeding German Shepherds. First of all, ALL breeding stock is required to pass hip certification. Sound temperament is critical too. The German Shepherd Dog is a WORKING breed and in Germany every dog must prove that it is worthy to pass its genes on to future generations. This is to say that, prior to breeding, each dog must have at least a Schutzhund I title (or its equivalent), which is quite a challenge to achieve. Also, every dog must pass an endurance test (AD), which consists of running approximately 12 miles. All of this ensures that only the best and healthiest population is used for breeding. But even within Germany, the breed has split into two types: German Working Bloodlines and German Show Bloodlines.


This German Shepherd dog type is MAINLY bred for its working ability. If you are looking for a dog that will search for drugs or contraband, or will be part of a search and rescue team, you should look for a German Shepherd that comes from working lines. These dogs make great family companions too, but some of them require an experienced handler and trainer. Even though they have a lot of drive and a great desire to work, good working line German Shepherds are not “hyper”. Successful working dogs have a stable temperament with a great disposition and know how to relax. They can also perform miracles in obedience.


If you want a strikingly beautiful dog, a head turner - these lines might be for you. A good show line German Shepherd Dog is beauty itself, but its beauty is functional and not abstract. Show line German Shepherds tend to be larger than Working line dogs and brighter in color. Also, they usually have a softer and more agreeable temperament. They too, however, must have a Schutzhund title in order to be bred, and pass a courage test at each National show where they compete - in accordance with SV rules. They make exceptional family companions and protectors. German show line German Shepherds are in no way couch potatoes; they need exercise, training, and lots of social interaction.


Other European Working Bloodlines are similar to the German Working Bloodlines. The difference might be in structure - sometimes favorable, sometimes not. German Working Bloodline breeders try to follow the German Shepherd breed standard, and often succeed, whereas most other European Working Bloodline breeders still have some work to do. Often it is a matter of personal preference. As far as working ability, there are outstanding working German Shepherd Dogs among the other European lines, and they have a very dedicated following. Some examples of such lines are: Czech or Slovak working lines, Belgium working lines, etc.


American Bloodlines are practically a different breed of dog, as breeders who promote this type do not follow the international German Shepherd breed standard. The German Shepherds of this type usually have thinner bones, narrower heads, exaggerated angulation, and softer ears and pasterns. In addition, there are several health concerns that seem to be more common among these dogs, such as bloat, allergies, and excessive shedding. There is another serious issue to consider when looking at this type of dog - there is no hip certification required by the main breed registries in the United States. There are no temperament tests required either. If you do decide to get an American line German Shepherd, be certain that not only its parents, but all ancestors for at least four generations have healthy OFA certified hips and that you can at least verify the temperament of the parents.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

That is a help, thank you. But I want more. 

I have my German boy, who is defensive, obedient but stubborn, will work all day, and is perfectly content to chill beside me. I wouldn't call him smart, but he is determined.
I have my ASL pup who owes her temperament to poor breeding and likely health issues. Drivey like mad and smart but entirely unbiddable. 
I had my Sabs who most pegged as ASL/European? Big, thick, steady as a rock, work ability in spades, but loving and mild at home. Too smart for her own good and fond of intelligent disobedience.

What would a well bred ASL give me? Or a WGSL?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here’s the thing. When we start talking about ASL, WGSL, WL, ect…people will talk about generalities…or where the majority of dogs they have seen fall on the scale of whatever is being discussed. So…talk about drive levels, and in general, the show lines will be much less than what WL show. This is what people will say. Just like with people…the way we look doesn’t mean anything about what our actual skills and abilities are, so you have to take every generality with a grain of salt.

On top of all that, your dog is a puppy mill dog. You’re probably basing your assumption of his line on purely looks. What I’ve seen lately, is with the rise of WL popularity, the puppy mills have gotten their hands on WL dogs and are using them in their breeding as well. So…although your boy might look like an ASL, it’s hard to say what kind of lines are behind him. If you do have a pedigree, it also might not say much because depending on the distance away from actual “good breeders” the naming conventions might not be used. I’ve seen plenty of WL that use American naming conventions, leading you to believe they’re ASL if you’re just looking at a pedigree but they’re really WL or a mix of WL/ASL.

I belong to a heavily ASL club. The dogs that I’ve seen with higher drive…are those that come from a BYB or a mill or somewhere that the owners have no idea what the lines are. Dog might look ASL, but it’s clearly a mix of anything they could get their hands on. If you find true ASL…those breeding for the show ring, showing in the AKC world, let’s say…the “reputable breeders” of that world…you’ll see that those dogs will have lower drive than the other lines because it’s very rare that those dogs are worked in a venue that requires drive.

I think you really can’t compare the indiscriminate breeders with those that do have a real goal or a venue that they’re interested in. If you talk about the breeders that have a goal, you’ll see that the prejudices and generalities do tend to fit, if you talk about the byb/puppy mill/ect…the lines aren’t as clear cut, so the generalities won’t fit as well.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm not sure what you are wanting to know. All you are going to get on this forum is that ASL is BAD. I have only had ASL shepherds, and have 3 right now. If you look at my signature you'll see that one is an AKC champion, another is almost finished, and I have a 17 month old male (who I threaten to kill about 10 times a day because he is so wound up and obnoxious). 

Like I said, I'm not sure what you want to know. I can only tell you about my dogs behavior and the behavior of my friends' dogs. I haven't had a GSL to compare them to.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have ASL dogs and have done AKC obedience, herding, and agility with them with good success.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I have a WGSL rescue. I do have her pedigree she was surrendered w her papers. She is a fantastic dog but there is almost no drive at all in her. Scared of thunder she is happy to be a pet house dog. I also have an American byb pup who is a big scaredy unless he is chasing a ball or something. When that happens all fear is gone and he must have ball. Much more prey drive than she has. 


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

One thing that has always been a head-scratcher for me on this forum is the disconnect between the insistence that breeding for color is a sign of bad breeder, yet the same insistence is given in telling folks that almost all well-bred WGSL are red-and-black. How is that logical? 

BTW: I am someone who believes that any breeding that is done purely to advance popular notions of aesthetics without further understanding of health and temperament is wrong. 

This is one of the reasons that when I look at the history of the German Shepherd in Germany – admittedly as a novice - I do not support what has happened in the WGSL community as it seems to me that powerful members within that breeding community basically created a new standard that all WGSL (who will succeed in the conformation world) must be red-and-black. Am I wrong?

I will also say that - probably due to the fact that WGSL are so recognizable by their red-and-black color - the dogs that I see in every day life that have what looks to me to be the most crippling structural problems are red-and-black... so, again, I am assuming they are WGSL. I could very well be wrong.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

As far as temperament goes, my ASL dogs aren't spooky weirdo nerve bags. They can handle strange children, vet visits without a muzzle (and without hiding under a chair). I can hand them off to strangers (which I do at the dog shows). They are eager to please me and they love to learn. Sage is a little over the top with her prey drive, but I can live with that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Wow! Thanks all.

What I was looking for was the stuff behind the myths, from people who own them.
I threw my dogs in just as a comparison? 

I find it interesting that I keep hearing about the red/black being WGSL. I know Buds pedigree, and put hands on 3-4 generations of his line, he is not SL of any kind. He is red/black, as was his mom, one aunt and a grandma, I think. One uncle was just red. Lots of blacks and sables but a few very nice red/blacks as well. 
I based my assumption of Shadow being ASL on the following: she is small, small boned, a bit leggy, narrow head and almost too narrow muzzle, she is tan w/black, thin coat and longer back. Her behavior and temperament I attribute to her breeding not a particular line.

Anyway, this was the info I was looking for, people giving me first hand knowledge. And I do appreciate you all sharing, please continue.


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