# ~16 hours in the Crate



## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

So I'm just reading through some threads here regarding crate training. I've noticed that this topic has been beat to death but I still feel it necessary to make this post. So I figure that the average person works an 8 hour shift. figure 30-1hr for travel time. then they sleep like 11-6 or so. So that would ammount to 16-17 hours that a person is not able to be with their puppy. This seems to be about the schedule for most people. And since this is the majority, should it be said that this person shouldn't own a pup? Neighbors and sitters aren't always an option. I mean the pup is your responsibility, not your neighbor who you barely know. So any way, so between the work time and the sleep time, the pup will have about 7-8 hours of non crated time to eat, drink, exercise and play. I've seen a poster here call this abusive. I'd like to know people's thoughts on this.

And I know I'll probably regret this, but yes, this is my scenario to a "T". I work 8 hours a day 5 days a week. and sleep from 11-about 5:30. When I wake up I take the pup to relieve her self, then we take about a 30 min walk. Then she comes back home, eats a bit, drinks a bit, follows us around the house as we walk back and forth preparing for work. Then back to the crate because its time for me to go to work. I get home at like 4:30, and we play and bond for most of the evening. If I have any puppy friendly errands, she always comes along with me for those. and then go on a 30 min walk at about 8pm (really hot here before then). And I make it a point to let her stay out until about 11, and thats when she goes to bed. 

I do feel bad for her because she is crated for 66% of the day so thats why I try my best to keep her active and to give her a lot of attention while I'm there. My goal of course is to eventually let her have free roam of the house but obviously that isn't a safe option at the time. And I don't want her using the restroom in a free room either. 

Thoughts...


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

And again I kindly ask, please do not flame me. I'm just trying to be open and transparent with the situation at hand.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me, it's too much, but I've seen dogs locked in small pens only taken out once every FEW days that still appear happy, healthy, and well-adjusted (I'm NOT condoning that, just saying that dogs can be quite simple and resilient creatures).

Currently, my dogs are crated from 7:55am-4:35pm. I am lucky I only live 5 mins from work, BUT I will say that we chose the location of our home based on our decision to have dogs, so I can minimize crate time and be home for lunch. Often I go home for lunch hour or longer (sometimes I have training or other work I can do from a computer at home), especially if the weather is sunny and mild. DH changes from one job to the next between 3:00-3:30pm so the dogs are taken out at that time and often actually left out so when I get home at 4:35 I'll find them out (kinda depends on if he got them to poop when he was home). At night they are not crated, they sleep in our room on the floor or dog beds (their choosing).

I feel like this is an appropriate balance. They never make trouble at night. A few times I've been home during the day and I've noticed that the dog's are DEAD during the day, they sleep hard the entire time and do it in their crates even when I'm home (any time we are home, crates are propped open so the dogs can go in and use their beds if they want). So I feel like they get enough exercise and out time to be sleeping through the night uncrated and be crated during the day for 6 hrs or so. Seeing them use crates willingly during the day and often in the evening after eating or exercise, I feel that's a good indication they are not being tormented by the crates. I've never had to shove or even coax them into the crate. When I'm leaving for work they go in on their own and don't make a peep.

When I get my puppy in October I plan on coming home for lunch (I like to take an early lunch around 11am), seeing if I can hire my SIL to check in on the pup in the afternoon, and perhaps use a crate and ex-pen setup in the kitchen, or gate off the kitchen for the pup.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Nerr when Rocky was a puppy his scenario was about the same. Dh and I both work ft, commute at least an hour a day each way. We were lucky that the boys would take him out and exercise him when they got home. Keep in mind this schedule will change as the pup gets older. At about 4 months Rocky was left out at night (in our room) but he wasnt crated. For the past 2 years he has been crated once. He has free reign of the house. It is not the perfect situation for a pup but it can work. 

Rocky is now three and he survived his days in a crate. I dont think there is anything wrong with the schedule. of course it is ideal if you can have someone let the pup out during the day, but unfortunately, that isnt reality in some cases.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I was lucky when Brady was crate training I could go home at lunch and let him out (still do)
Brady hasn't been in a crate in well over a year
you do what you have to the pup doesn't care as long as you take care of them and love them


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

My puppies spend about 16 hours a day in a crate, maybe more. When very young, I would come home at lunch time and give them a potty break. 

Balto is one year old now. He still gets crated when I'm at work because he likes to peel the paper off the drywall. He's old enough that I don't come home at lunch anymore unless one of the dogs is looking ill. He's also good at night and most nights gets free reign of the house. Sadly, he sometimes wakes me for a 2 am potty break. So, if I'm really tired, he's in the crate for the night.


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## grmnshpd21 (May 5, 2005)

I had a similar sitution when Molly was a puppy. DH and I both worked FT. I was able to come home at lunch to let Molly out when we were potty training her but when she got older and could hold her bladder I stopped coming home from lunch (commuted half an hour each way and it was a temporary deal with my boss after we got Molly). The days I couldn't make it, my brother-in-law would stop by. All attention was on Molly after we got home from work until she had to go back into the crate for bed time. She was only in her crate at bed time until she was 7 months old. Then she was allowed to sleep in our room in her own doggie bed. She is still crated during the day while we are at work and has no problems being in there. I'm hoping that we can start giving her free roam of the house when we are at work. 

If I could be a stay at home dog mom, I would totally do it


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## JenniferH (Oct 9, 2007)

My scenario is almost just like yours. I do come home for lunch as well. I also feel quilty sometimes but I try to remember that Bella is only 1 now. I tried to give her some free time out of the crate while we were away. Starting with half hour intervals. Things were going well until she became a teen (at least this is what I think) and then she started to destoy things that she never cared for before. Both remotes are a mess now and I have gone through 3 hair brushes. She opens drawers now too. So i cant allow her to get hurt or eat my couch while I'm not home. At night, I would love to let her out and dh and I are brainstorming the best way to do this. She has a major issue with wanting to be on the bed. So its often a major ordeal to even to get settled in for bed and dont even think of private spouse time! Wont happen. So, like i said, we're trying to figure out something that works for us. I may start with 15 minutes at a time to see how it goes. I want her to eventually be crate free unless she chooses to go in it. So after all that, I dont think your a bad puppy parent. You'd feel worse if you came home to a poisoned or hurt puppy. Thats how i feel about it...


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

I currently put mine in the run from about 8-3 and then maybe a bit later on followed by the crate for bed time. She's far too active to be left out at night yet, but hopefully i'll get there soon. she'll definitly be kenneled whilst i'm not there as she can cause major damage to garden and herself.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi, Nerrej-

I used to think that that was way too much crate time for a dog, and that people that have to use a crate that much shouldn't have one. I have since changed my mind, since I've seen that situation work really well. My mom is gone about 9-10 hours a day, and her dog was crated at night (up until recently). Her dog is extremely happy, and well-loved. She sleeps in the crate, and isn't stressed or upset.

Personally, I am lucky enough to stay home with my kids (including my dog







I just recently started leaving my dog uncrated (he just turned one) when we are gone. We use our kitchen as his "crate" now, with a baby gate in the doorway. I keep all the tempting stuff (food, trash, etc) out of reach, and he does fine now. Could you maybe try to have a room gated off (maybe not now, but as she gets older), that can be "puppy-proofed", so she has a little more room to move around when you're gone? My dog also earned his freedom at night. He sleeps in my room, by choice, but has the whole house available to him at night. I taught him to sleep in my room and not bother anything by tethering him to my bedside stand at night for several weeks. He learned that nighttime is "sleep and don't mess with stuff" time.







maybe you'd feel less guilt if she was uncrated at night? I know I did.









Good luck - as long as your puppy is happy, you're doing fine.


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## Helly (Mar 31, 2008)

Jackson, 5 months, is sometimes crated that long..maybe once or twice a week....depends on how many days DH works out of the house....and he is crated at night...love him to death, but he can't be trusted by himself...he is a very happy, well-adjusted dog...for a 5 month old.


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## Meb (Oct 18, 2005)

I personally think that 16 hours is too long. It is good that you walk her 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes at night. I have always had a pet sitter (my Mom) who I pay very well and she takes my 2 dogs for a walk during my working hours. This is only for 2 days a week that DH and I work the same hours, otherwise one of us is home. Meb is 3 and Shay is 1. When Shay was a puppy mom would stop down for 3 potty breaks a day. As he got older she only did 2, now she only stops once a day. I have only crated my dogs in case of an injury. Meb recently sprained is leg and was "down for a week and a half". Yes I did crate him just to keep the 2 knuckleheads from playing and him injuring his leg worse, but I also let him out of the crate at least every 2 hours to stretch and go outside and get some fresh air. Maybe I go too far the other way but I think my dogs deserve the best.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I crate dogs when I am at work...for a few years I worked for a company whose offices were in a big old mansion and I took three dogs to work every day. They slept pretty much most of the day, Kelsey would go out to lunch and sit in the boss' convertible Mercedes and guard it (there is a photo of this on my website LOL). My boss liked dogs, and even gave me his SUV and a gas card to go pick up a dog 600 miles away so all my dogs could make the trip as I only had a sports car at the time. After he passed away, I still worked for and ran the company - and ended up working from home for a couple of years....the dogs slept all day anyway! Of course, they prefer my bed to a crate, and if idiots in my neighborhood did not let dogs (and cats) roam, I would not need to crate the group that gets along....

There is nothing wrong with crating - it is safer overall IMO for a young dog - and easier on the house! 

Even after being in a crate during the day, these guys will lie around and sleep in the evening too! And there is always someone sleeping in the open crate in the living room.

Lee


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you for bringing this up! We, too, work all day and must crate our pup. Before he was housebroken, I came home at lunch and worked extra in the evening to make up for it (Thank you to my understanding boss!) - while DH came home at 4:00 and let him out. I have read the posts where people say not to leave a pup in a crate for more than a few hours at a time - but that is just not possible for most of us. 

Now that Luther is old enough to hold himself through the day, I no longer come home at lunchtime and felt horribly guilty about it. One Saturday, I was doing some quiet work in the office and crated Luther through the day to see what he did. To my surprise, he just slept and seemed perfectly fine with it! He never protests going or being in his crate and while I know he would be very happy if we were home all day - this is OK. Have to admit, however, I will feel much better about it when he is old enough to be free in the house when we're away. That will come...

Martie


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## DakotaSpirit (Jan 3, 2008)

I am lucky enough that my pup can come to work with me (extra socialization for him since I work in the tourism industry at a trail ride facility). So, he is only crated at night (usually from 11 pm-6 am) and two or three nights a week from 7-11 pm when I am working where I can't bring him. He is let out to relieve himself and exercise before he goes back to bed.

Personally, I do not see 16 hours as too over the top. My dogs love their crates as it is their personal space. My border collie used to be crated for about that long when I was between college and work. He was a very happy dog so I never found it to be too stressful for him.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have always been in the same situation. Ava has the run of the house at night now (she is 2) and she is learning to be uncrated during the day. But as a puppy, she spent a lot of time in the crate. Ava is a very happy girl, and does not seem like she has suffered at all.


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## Kay13411 (Jul 24, 2003)

I have been very lucky with my pups, I worked for a vet and while they were young they came to work with me.... I did crate during the night, till all the potty training was done. Now all 4 of my dogs sleep in my room. I have worked my schedule at work so that I can be home most of the day with them.....


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## Robocop (Jul 18, 2008)

It would be nice treat to your gsd to have a dog walker visit during the day at least twice a week. Its not highly expensive, yet it can add up but I think its worth it. Gives the dog a break and an opportunity to stretch out etc... Don't know how much it cost where you are but its $20 each visit in my area. That includes a 30 min walk and the rest of the time in your home eating/drinking. Or you can be specific and request a certain time table.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You can:

Call your local COA (council on aging) and speak to someone to get the number for the senior center. Oftentimes many dog-experienced, healthy, fit power-walking Grandmas and Grandpas have time to walk your puppy, throw the ball, let her breathe and run and explore.

Or: Call the vet's-- they likely know dog-loving, experienced teens with tons of energy for walks, ball playing, etc. to pop in at 2:30 and give that pup some freedom and relief.

Or, call the feed store. (they know teens, too)

Or the groomers. (might also know teens or elderly with time and experience)

Or the high school and speak with guidance counselors who place teens in mini-jobs in the community.

ALL of these options can be low cost and available to someone who works, who's puppy craves freedom of movement to be healthy in mind, body, spirit.


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## allexblake (Sep 14, 2010)

Three month old Ginger is only crated at night 11-6. We are lucky enough for her to be able to stay out almost all day because of our work schedule. One of us are usually always home. We look at the time frames as when your asleep at night your not spending time with your dogs at all. So we would count whether the dog is crated or not as time not spent at night and add the time while your awake during day they are crated for total non contact. If you sleep 8 hours and your dog is crated 9 hours while your at work then that is 17 hours your "disconnected" from your dog whether or not your crating your dog at night. If you have kids you would be spending the same time with them on the schedule. So who should say someone shouldnt have a Shepherd because they are in the crate 16 hours a day? Are they saying we shouldnt have kids also? Theres no diffrence...our dogs are like our kids. 
Like I said at first, we dont have the crate time like others because someone is usually almost home, but I dont agree when someone says people shouldnt have a shepherd if its crated 17 hours a day, did they not work full time when they were raising their kids?


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I think 16 hours is too long, although I realize puppies sleep A LOT. Like many posters here, I have had jobs close enough to home to allow me to come home at lunch to take care of my dogs. If I couldn't, I had a trusted neighbor come in to take care of them or paid a petsitter. I have not been willing to keep my current puppy in a crate longer than 4 hours at a time (that's always been my personal limit), so I take her to doggy day care the 2 days a week I'm in the office and can't take her with me.


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## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm gone about 10 hrs a day which includes my travel to and from work. Uschi is in her crate until I come home for lunch and let her out. I will play with her for about 40 minutes and then she knows its time for me to go back to work so she will get a drink and walk right back in her crate so I can close the door. No stress or anything. I also take her to doggie daycare twice a week so she gets lots of playtime with other dogs and can have some fun. I still crate her at night but I've been trying to slowly transition her a few times a week to leaving her out of her crate for a few more extra hours at night. She seems to be doing pretty good so far.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Every situation is different. 

Dogs ARE resilient and seem to do VERY well with our leftovers. Leftover time, leftover money for supplies, etc., leftover food, and even leftover love. 

I would feel bad two if my pup was in a 42 inch crate all night, let to potty and eat, and back in the 42 inch crate for the day. Add to that, that the owner had two work an hour over, and is in a bad mood because he couldn't stop in for a beer after the job because he had to get home to a puppy that might not have lasted the extra time. 

On the other hand, the puppy did not eat the couch, chew electric wires, or go through a window and is not bleeding or otherwise injured when the owner comes home. 

When the owner is happy coming home, spends some time with the pup, walking or training or throwing the ball, then goes in and fixes dinner with pup at his feet, then relaxes on the couch with pup after dinner to watch tv until bed time -- that pup may get as much quality time with their owner as dogs that have the run of the house. 

And, some dogs get a whole lot less.

It depends on what your goals are too. Maybe your dog will be ready soon to be given the run of the bedroom at night. Maybe not. 

My number 1 priority is to keep puppies safe so that they make it to adulthood. All puppies are different. Some can be given the run of the house early on. Others, need to be crated until over two. 

So if a pup that sleeps up to 20 hours a day, needs to be crated 16 hours for his own safety, it is better so.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Nyxie is crated at night and during the day for a few hours at a time - up to 5 at most because of the work schedules we have. We are lucky that it is not 8 hours a day, but in years past with other puppies it had been. Later on down the road when she is older she can stay in my new shed/kennel combo we built for the dogs. Insulated and climate controlled shed with toys and beds with a doggie door to a fenced kennel to potty. Completely safe and out of view of neighbors and the street. So far the older dogs seem to quite like this set up.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think the fact to look at is that it's not 16 hours straight that the pup is crated, right? Crated at night (8 hours) and crated during while you are at work (8 hours). but there are potty breaks in between and exercise and time spent with the family.

Face it, I've been here with my dogs all day. Even as I puppy and me being home 24/7, Rayden didn't get a lot more than that. He spent the rest of the time sleeping. Sure, there were more smaller trips outside and walking to the mailbox etc, but even if you are home with the kids you have things to do. You clean the house, do laundry, have to do errands, cook dinner, etc etc. 

Even if the dog is out of the crate, what is he doing? laying on the floor, usually taking a nap. So, no, I don't see a problem as long as the dog isn't just locked in the crate for 16 hours straight, no exercise/quality time.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My dogs are fine loose in the house, so they are not crated much - but I wouldn't have any issues crating them during the day if I had to, and crating them at night. When I am home, my time is planned around their needs, most of my activities and socialization are dog-focused, they get a lot of training and play and exercise and cuddling time. I really don't thing that they would be any different if they were crated. 

I have one big huge crate for Gryffon in the house, since he was crated for the first six months or so until I felt comfortable leaving him out. Both dogs like to use it for hanging out and for naps, and Keeta, who is more independent, will sleep in the crate at night out of her own choice. So seeing how comfortable they are with the crate, I would not feel that crating them work days, and at night was an issue at all.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Dainerra said:


> I think the fact to look at is that it's not 16 hours straight that the pup is crated, right? Crated at night (8 hours) and crated during while you are at work (8 hours). but there are potty breaks in between and exercise and time spent with the family.
> 
> Face it, I've been here with my dogs all day. Even as I puppy and me being home 24/7, Rayden didn't get a lot more than that. He spent the rest of the time sleeping. Sure, there were more smaller trips outside and walking to the mailbox etc, but even if you are home with the kids you have things to do. You clean the house, do laundry, have to do errands, cook dinner, etc etc.
> 
> Even if the dog is out of the crate, what is he doing? laying on the floor, usually taking a nap. So, no, I don't see a problem as long as the dog isn't just locked in the crate for 16 hours straight, no exercise/quality time.


That's exactly right. You can't just look at the total time IN the crate (cause that does seem appalling  ) . Instead we need to look at what we are doing WITH our dogs in the 8 hours of the day. More important than ever to attend those dog classes, hike those miles, swims in the lake, and socialization times.


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## BayouBaby (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm one of the rare ones that don't crate. Sometimes I wish I did have a crate, but so far I've had no issues. When I need to leave and my girl can't come, I put her in my daughter's bedroom where there is nothing she can chew, eat or hurt herself on. She sleeps on a mat beside my bed at night, though most nights she sneaks onto the bed and sleeps on my feet. I just don't like the idea of having to put her in a small cage for hours on end, but that's me! I understand why others do it and I don't judge it. You do what you have to do to ensure the dog is safe and happy. In our home, she's safe and happy having free run unless I have to leave. Then she's safe and happy in a dog-proof bedroom.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I work 8.5 hours a day, 5 days a week

I live 2 minutes away from work, literally.

I work 6am to 2:30pm

Both of my dogs are crated while I am at work because they are destructive.

I get home at 2:32-2:35 and let them out of their crates. They are out of their crates until 11:00pm-12am (midnight) when it is bedtime. Only Rogue is crated at night, Sinister's crate is open but he still chooses to sleep in it. I let them out of their crate from 4:30am-5:50am (while I am getting ready for work)

So my dogs are crated 14.5 to 15 hours in a 24 hour period, only work days. I spend the weekends at home, I get about 8 to 9 hours of sleep on saturday and on sunday and those are the only times they are crated on the weekends.

I would absolutely love to have both of them out of the crate but until they can be trusted to behave, they have to stay crated for their safety and my sanity. :crazy:

I throw sticks for them when I get home, I have to have an endless supply of sticks because they dont play "fetch" they play "get the stick and destroy it". They play chase in the yard. They go on 1 hour walks everynight and they wrestle inside the house, and they chase cats.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

As if that makes it any better. 

It's still 16 hours a day where they are locked up and while you may spend the 8 hours wisely and actually do something, many other people don't. They sit at home, on their ass, in front of a TV and drink a beer while the dog is going nuts because it's been locked up and because they don't want to deal with it the dog is going straight back into the crate!

At least that is what you see over here on the military base. 

It's bad, sad and shocking. Most of these people shouldn't have a dog. 

Next house neighbors have a boxer. It gets out once a day, for ten minutes. In that time he can chase the ball. At the weekend he is taken for a walk off post. Other than that, he's in the house 24/7

Golden Retriever over the street. Taken out twice a day to pee or poop and then back into the house, IF they take her out twice a day. 

German Shepherd, two buildings down. CONSTANTLY in the house and they wonder why she is so hyper. Only gets to pee and poop outside. Working line dog, awesome dog and her life is wasted. 

German Shepherds over the street. Get to go outside to run for half an hour a day. Against the policy, off leash, constant complaining about these dogs and we accidently received the complains. Other than that they are in the house. That is the same dog that has HD, she doesn't have ANY muscles on her hinder legs and can't even walk right. Owner refuses to see the truth and finds all kinds of excuses. 

The other Shepherd, constantly in the house but I guess that is okay since she gets to chase a ball each day for like half an hour. 

I am not going to go into the next stairwell. These dogs are NEVER outside. You don't get to see them at all. 

Mine are outside every day. They are worked, walked, hiked, get to swim, get to rough play and there is no more need to crate. 

All three of them are crate trained for the flight and thats it. 

Other than that I don't have to crate any of them. I actually trained my puppy around the house. She wouldn't have learned to behave if I had locked her away all day long. 

Now, at 7 months I can leave her all alone at home and she wouldn't touch anything or chew anything up.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

My 2 older dogs are free to roam the house 24/7 the puppy is only 9 months old and still destructive. So she is confined at bed time, 10-5 in a crate next to my bed. During the day I can keep her confined to the "puppy proofed" kitchen from 8-4 unless hubby is working late then it can be as long as 8-5:30. I hate leaving the dogs in the house that long but my husband and I both have to work. When weather permits I am fortunate enough to be able to leave them in my secured backyard. 
I try to do stuff with them every morning, and I try to squeeze in some play at night when I get home. Most of the time they are just content to hang out with us and lay around.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I am home with my son and the dogs now, but up until last year was working full time with overtime every week. I haven't had my own pup in a few years (other than fosters) and we always crated while at work and at night until they were completely house broken and reliable. Usually sleeping outside the crate by a year at the latest, and free in the house while we were at work between 1 - 2 yrs give or take.

We never had foster pups long enough to worry about going from crate to freetime, but now that we have Dante who is 3 mo I wish I had moved to x-pen use in the past. Hindsight is 20/20, but Dante only goes into his crate at night and comes out first thing in the AM. If I can't watch him close for a period of time he goes outside to play with the big boys or he goes into his x-pen in the dining room (who needs a kitchen table?  ) which is open to the living room and kitchen, so he's not secluded. He has rotated toys and a nylabone and plays nicely by himself, or naps.

He is 99% housetrained already (100% if I take him out every couple hrs on the dot) and I think within a matter of weeks he will be good for 4 - 5 hrs at a stretch. If I could do it all over again, I would have moved to x-pen use for the other dogs in years past for daytime rather than keep them crated. I would hook the x-pen to the crate and leave the door open and leave safe toys (nylabones, kongs, etc). By 4 - 6 mo, I think all my dogs would have been fine and would not potty in the x-pen. If they had, back to the crate for a week or two while at work, then try again. With a lunchtime break they would've been fine.

I doubt the x-pen vs the crate would really make MUCH of a difference. Dog is still going to sleep 99% of the time. But at least they could get up and stretch, walk around a little more.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I don't like the idea of leaving dogs in the crate all day like that. My son and his wife got a dog walker to come in at around noon each day to take their dogs for walks and give them a break from the crate. I am a stay at home Mom. I feel bad putting Wolfie in the crate for a couple hours while I go shopping! However, you can only do what you can with your dogs. They are very adaptable creatures.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My dogs are both out at night with free roam though the puppy is crated from 9-2:30 when I get home during the day. If the pup were destructive at night she'd be in the crate though- it's temporary and most dogs do not have to be crated their whole lives 16 hours a day. I don't think it's cruel and honestly a pup swallowing a spring and slowly choking to death while your at work is much crueler.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> My dogs are both out at night with free roam though the puppy is crated from 9-2:30 when I get home during the day. If the pup were destructive at night she'd be in the crate though- it's temporary and most dogs do not have to be crated their whole lives 16 hours a day. I don't think it's cruel and honestly a pup swallowing a spring and slowly choking to death while your at work is much crueler.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Verona (Sep 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> As if that makes it any better.
> 
> It's still 16 hours a day where they are locked up and while you may spend the 8 hours wisely and actually do something, many other people don't. They sit at home, on their ass, in front of a TV and drink a beer while the dog is going nuts because it's been locked up and because they don't want to deal with it the dog is going straight back into the crate!
> 
> ...


A little judgemental or what???!!! I love my puppy but I also have a life which involves two young children, a husband and a full time job. Luckily I work in the afternoons from home so my puppy only stays in her crate for 4 hours in the morning and she is crated from 11pm-6pm while we sleep. Do I feel guilty? **** NO!!!!!!!! I know she is safe and I know she is not disturbing anyone outside or getting into trouble. The one time I left her outside on her own for a short time she decided to eat a wasp and I had to rush her to the vet as her face swelled up scarily.

Most people here in Italy don't crate and I wish they did. They leave the dogs in the back yard and they bark NON STOP all friggin day long. I have had so many people ask me how come the never hear my dog bark when we are away. I think it's because she feels safe in her crate. 

And so what if the dog stays in the house all day long? I often leave my back door open and we have a huge back yeard but my puppy would rather stay with me rather than stay outside on her own, she is sleeping by my feet as I write. But she does get lots of exercise- 2 or 3 short walks per day and lots of playtime in the garden when the kids get back from school. And seriously how do you know these dogs never go out? Do you study their movements everyday? Do you have that much time on your hands? I have no idea how often my neighbour's dogs are walked and I couldn't care less to be honest. That's her business not mine!!!

You do what you have to do and I am sure your dog will love you anyway! Some of us decide to dedicate their lives to their dogs and that's great. My dog is part of my family but she has to adapt to my life and not vice versa.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, than i wouldn't own a dog. 

There is a reason why I did not have a dog in my life for quite a while because I didn't have the time, didn't have a car and didn't have the lifestyle to acommodate a dog. 

When you have a dog, you have a responsibility and you can't just lock them away all day long, why do you have a dog in the first place if it has to spend 24/7 in the house and only gets out to pee and poo. 

Sorry, doesn't matter how you try to justify it. Call me judgemental, if that is what I am than it's what I am but owning a pet comes with huge responsibility and I will never understand why somebody owns a pet when they don''t have the time or don't want to make the time and lock them up all day long. 

If that's judgemental, than I proudly am judgemental!

We may differ in our opinions but that's the way I feel about it and when I see how they are locked up all day long than it hurts my heart. 

To me, personally, it's irresponsible dog-ownership and than they blame the dog for being destructive or not housebroken in time... no wonder when it's locked up and doesn't get to be outside, exercised or taken out more than once or twice a day. 

However, I am not talking about anyone on here, these are my experiences with the military community I live in and just so you know, most German Shelters in this Area won't even adopt out to military families anymore. There is a reason why they do that and I've seen too much as I could disagree with not adopting out to them. 

I've tried to do something about it. But anytime I took them to obedience classes the next time they wouldn't show up again. Anytime I was asked for help, I happily lended a hand. I wasn't judgemental from the beginning, in fact I didn't want to believe it. But now that I've lived here for two years and can see it with my own eyes I am actually starting to give up. I can't surround myself with people like that anymore and I distance myself from them because it makes me angry and it makes me feel helpless to witness that somebody got the third or fourth dog and you know they'll get rid of that one to just to get dog number 6. 

There are responsible dog owners out there, I know quite a few on PHV, unfortunately, in my surrounding neighborhood there are not many of them. In fact there is only one that I'd call responsible. 

Maybe I am just expecting too much from people, I know I have a very high standard and I may come off arrogant because of it but you'll see that I live up to them and the day my dogs would spend most of the time of their life in the house because i am too lazy or don't have the time it'd be the day I'd give them into more responsible hands that could provide a better life for them. 

I am not saying it's a bad thing that they are at home for 8 hours a day as long as they get the exercise they need. But dogs that are locked up in the house and are only taken out to pee and poo deserve more than just that.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree, there are way too many people out there who shouldn't own dogs - but you make it sound like anyone who works and crates their dog is irresponsible, - which is insulting to those of us who work and crate our dogs, but are devoted and commited to our dogs and meeting their needs. 

It is just the wording and tone of your posts - strong accusatory blanket statements followed by an example of how the way you do things is the right and responsible way - a bit arrogant, no?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sure, if your dog ONLY goes out to pee and poop, then why own a dog?

But, who here has said that is how their dogs live? 
Everyone here has said that they walk their dogs, go to dog parks, train, work, and play with their dogs. 

Think of it this way.....

The average person sleeps 8 hours a night. Add in, say, 4 hours for cooking/eating. Another 2 hours for cleaning. That is 14 hours a day. What portion of that last 10 hours is required to be spent with your dog to be qualified to own one?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I agree, there are way too many people out there who shouldn't own dogs - but you make it sound like anyone who works and crates their dog is irresponsible, - which is insulting to those of us who work and crate our dogs, but are devoted and commited to our dogs and meeting their needs.
> 
> It is just the wording and tone of your posts - strong accusatory blanket statements followed by an example of how the way you do things is the right and responsible way - a bit arrogant, no?


My way isn't only the right way and i do not want to insult anyone who crates their dogs and works them. Maybe it is my wording. 

I am specifically talking about people that excessively crate and abuse it. 

However, I've seen a kennel that can be used as an indoor kennel. Big enough that the dogs can walk around, stretch and lay down as they wish. It can be made bigger too. That is something I can stand up for and where I wouldn't have a problem keeping a dog in since they can get up and walk around. It's not that much more expensive than the crates I've seen. Actually it's cheaper than a kennel in Germany. 

When you talk about Crates I think about the crates that I've seen with my neighbors. They are so small that all they can do is to sit up, turn around and lay down again and that is something I would never keep my dogs 16 hours in. That's what I consider abusive, especially since they don't get to be outside more than half an hour, don't get to go on hikes, don't get to be worked or exercised otherwise.


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## Verona (Sep 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> My way isn't only the right way and i do not want to insult anyone who crates their dogs and works them. Maybe it is my wording.
> 
> I am specifically talking about people that excessively crate and abuse it.
> 
> ...


OK I understand better where you are coming form now. I do have an indoor kennel where my puppy can get up, walk, stretch etc... and I agree that a dog needs much more than just a trip to pee and poo. 

I think your original post came off as judgemental of anyone who crates but from what I read on here, most people crate while they are away but then dedicate a lot of time to their dogs by playing with them, taking them for walks etc.... I think most of the people on here sound like wonderful dog owners and they shouldn't be made to feel guilty.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Verona said:


> OK I understand better where you are coming form now. I do have an indoor kennel where my puppy can get up, walk, stretch etc... and I agree that a dog needs much more than just a trip to pee and poo.
> 
> I think your original post came off as judgemental of anyone who crates but from what I read on here, most people crate while they are away but then dedicate a lot of time to their dogs by playing with them, taking them for walks etc.... I think most of the people on here sound like wonderful dog owners and they shouldn't be made to feel guilty.


They are, most of them truly are wonderful dog people but on the other hand I feel like I am in the minority, what doesn't help is that I am a very vocal person. I stand up for my believes and just like others voice their opinion I do to and while they are pro, I am con because that is what I believe and when I read stuff like in the topic where cops shot an arthritic lab in oakland and it is said that that wouldn't have happened when they had crated their dog I feel like "What?"

Coming from another culture (and I learned that even though we are both western countries there is a difference between the mentalities and I've learned that it also plays a role of where people in the US are coming from the differences are much much bigger or smaller) the mentality of crating dogs is new to me. I am sure there are people over here too but I grew up a completely different way and you can be assured that nobody would crate a dog just because there might be a false alarm and cops would come out. I am trying to comprehend that but I cannot, for the world, understand that kind of mentality or the way of thinking.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

see i havent read all the comments but its doesnt sound like everyone is flaying you alive. My husband works during the day from about 4am-5pm. When i'm awake which isnt usually until about noon -1pm since i work nights, Shasta spends about the same amount of time in her crate. Not everyone can be home all the time and the dogs free to run like crazy. Shasta is out of her crate as often as we can have her out. It works. People work 8 hours a day or more and still have dogs. It is possible!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am not saying that it is impossible to have dogs while you are working 8 hours a day. 

What I am against at is that a dog gets locked up in one of those tiny crates where they can't walk and stretch themselves. 

The size of the crate makes it abusive and I cannot comprehend that there are people out there that lock their dogs away because they fear that cops might come by and shoot their dogs, like some have stated in another topic. It goes way beyond my understanding. 

If it is more like an in(out)door kennel where the dog can get up, walk around, stretch and lay back down, I wouldn't have any problems with it. But a crate where they can only sit, turn around and lay back down, that is what I have a major issue with. But again, they are not my dogs so I can't make any decisions. All I can do is stating my opinion just like you are. 

By now, everybody knows how I feel about crates, I am not saying that I'd never change my mind on it. Maybe I am changing my mind one day but as of right now, I can't comprehend why you would do it to your dog and "to keep them safe" doesn't justify it for me.


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## LovemyEli (Dec 28, 2010)

I got an outdoor kennel/run for during the day. It is a good size and my 7 month old has adapted pretty well. Id rather him throw a fit in there for 20 minutes then come home and have him dead from him finding god knows what to swallow. 

He is crated at night and loves it, I let him sleep out now if he wants but he prefers it. Def not alone in the house yet, but i might be willing to try that soon for a bit.

Dogs are adaptable creatures, as long as they are getting proper exercise etc then you have to do what you have to to make sure they are safe.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Nerrej said:


> And again I kindly ask, please do not flame me. I'm just trying to be open and transparent with the situation at hand.


If they flame you they can flame me too! 

Many of us are in the same situation. I have to sleep. I have to work. So if I want to have a pup safe at home it looks like alot of crate time. 

For me, it's not about the safe time they spend in the crate every day that matters. It's about the time and what I do with it when I do get home! I put on those 'play' clothes, pack the dogs in the car and we are off usually at least every other day.

Hiking off leash in the woods, swimming, socializing, visiting friends, dog classes. I wear those darn pups out so they come home and can't wait to get back into the crate for a nap!


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## stolibaby (Mar 6, 2011)

I didn't read this entire thing but those of what I did definately were great to read as I have wondered if I was hurting Stoli by not being able to be home more...I work 2-1030 pm 5 days a week..which is an awful schedule and one I'm trying to get out of; but for now it is what it is and unfortunately Stoli has to go in his crate. I do have a roommate who is willing to let him out if she's home at times which is nice; but my other roommate I rather not go near Stoli since she does not understand GSD and their personality (she has a pug who could sleep 22 hours a day...stoli not so much haha) and would rather he play in his crate than be out where someone could be a negative influence on him. So yep for 40 hours a week Stoli is in his crate but i will say at night we play when i come home and he is allowed to roam in my room while i go to bed and has for a while since he learned quickly what mom will allow in her room. I am trying to leave him out at times while I'm gone but we've had a few recent accidents which hasn't made this a possibility much. I will say I bought the BIGGEST crate I could though and he's had it since about 4 or 5 months....he loves his crate and will at times sleep in there at night instead of his bed on the floor so I know he doesn't associate his crate as a punishment which is the biggest issue I would want to avoid.


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

Jake is in a kennel all night, and kennel whenever we aren't home. During the day he's usually outside unless there is bad weather. My wife is a stay-at-home mom, so he's kept an eye on. When I get home at 5, he's inside for the remainder of the day.
It's a schedule that works well for all involved.


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Me and the girlfriend are shift workers and we work opposite shifts, so very rarely is Cedar in the crate at all. When we go out, she has free run of the house. 

I personally wouldn't have got her if I was the typical 8-5 worker, but that's just me. I am not judging anyone else.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Hank is also in his crate an average of 40 hours a week when I am at work. I used to have the biggest guilt trip about this, but now I think he just sleeps the whole time. He always goes in his crate happily and waits for a treat when I tell him it's time for "crate."

There was a few months where he would also sleep in the crate when I was home at night only because he wouldn't settle down next to my bed. Now he sleeps on his dog bed next to my bed and usually I have to MAKE him wake up to go out to potty at around 5:30 a.m., then we go back to sleep for a bit.

What really drove it home to me that he loves his crate is this: I had been using a borrowed crate and for several reasons wanted to buy my own. As I was breaking down the borrowed crate, Hank started to cry (not whine, CRY) and pranced around the room frantically. He was upset that I was taking away his crate!

My goal, of course, is to have him out of the crate full time, but at 6 months that is not realistic. I'm hoping at maybe a year. He will also be in it less this summer when the kids are not in school.


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## Dengirly (Mar 29, 2013)

Appreciate all of your responses, am trying to find a way to help two pure-bred German shepards who live behind me. We are in a semi-rural area. The home lots are an acre and 1/4 in our neighborhood. We have a vacant home behind us, at least 3,000 sq ft. On the property is a very large pen, fenced 8 ft high with an adjoining shed that has a dog door for access to shelter. The two dogs are confined to this area 24/7 with no exercise or socialization. Food and water is given every two days. During the night, the eldest Shepard barks rapidly, while I do not hear the younger one. We have had nimal control out and Shepard advocates, and at this point I have found nothing I can do for these poor dogs. No one lives in the house. I have spoken with the owner, he says he has them to guard. They are penned and can not get out. They are adjacent to the house. I need to help these dogs, but absolutely do not know how. The owner is not from this country and am not sure he understands how to properly care for these dogs. He had them shipped from Germany, but he has no relationship with them at all.


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## motoracer51 (Nov 5, 2006)

Right now, other than night time, I have a 4 hour self imposed limit. 

Fortunately, I bring him with me to work, and set up the pen and let him hang out while I do what needs to be done ( I work for myself ). Today was my first day, and it went great, and I plan on doing it more. Much better than leaving him at home by himself.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dengirly said:


> Appreciate all of your responses, am trying to find a way to help two pure-bred German shepards who live behind me. We are in a semi-rural area. The home lots are an acre and 1/4 in our neighborhood. We have a vacant home behind us, at least 3,000 sq ft. On the property is a very large pen, fenced 8 ft high with an adjoining shed that has a dog door for access to shelter. The two dogs are confined to this area 24/7 with no exercise or socialization. Food and water is given every two days. During the night, the eldest Shepard barks rapidly, while I do not hear the younger one. We have had nimal control out and Shepard advocates, and at this point I have found nothing I can do for these poor dogs. No one lives in the house. I have spoken with the owner, he says he has them to guard. They are penned and can not get out. They are adjacent to the house. I need to help these dogs, but absolutely do not know how. The owner is not from this country and am not sure he understands how to properly care for these dogs. He had them shipped from Germany, but he has no relationship with them at all.


They have food and water and a good shelter and a large pen, and there are two of them, which means they are not terribly lonely. If the dogs appear to be sick or injured or seriously underweight, call animal control. Otherwise MYOB. These are working dogs. Some people have them as guard dogs. Their life is not terrible.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm locking this since it is an old thread and dengirly has started her own thread about the two dogs.


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