# 2:2 linebreeding



## golfbum (Jan 11, 2010)

Saw an add from what I would think is a BYB with a linebreeding of 2:2 (half bother sire-half sister dam). Is this not just crazy! I would think that would be way to close and more like in-breeding? Thoughts

I am not looking at getting these dogs, just thought it was odd!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Unfortunately not odd look at all the current health problems in GSD's. I would ask why they are choosing to breed this close, what is the purpose, what do they hope to produce, and why wouldn't another dam/sire wouldn't fit the bill. Some breeding choices after diligent health testing are bred this close with a purpose....is it ethical? Well thats open to debate, but not a breeding I'd be interested in either


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't know much about GSD pedigrees admittedly but I know more than the average person on Doberman pedigrees and linebreeding is not uncommon. There is a very very popular stud out there who is the product of littermates breeding which is considered inbreeding at that point by my standards. 
The issue is that the old lines are fading away with the brbs pissing in our gene pool so to speak. There is not enough dogs around that 'fit together' nicely so they breed to family. Agree with it or not, we have a serious problem in the working world I think. 
I am not completely against linebreeding, because some very nice pups have been born out of it, as long as everyone knows that yes all the positives will be doubled in the genes-so are the negatives. And this is the fire that breeders play with. I have alot of respect for breeders who run their breeding programs properly.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

2:2 linebreeding is way to close for me. And so is breeding brothers and sisters. Reputable breeders should NOT be doing that!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That's super close. I think the SV only permits 2-3. To me it depends on the dogs, the lines, what the breeders intentions are. I've seen some heavy linebreeding that was a disaster and some that was thoroughly researched and successful, so I can't say in general what I think is "unethical". If the breeder is simply breeding those two dogs b/c those are the two he has at the time and gives no thought to the linebreeding, then yes I'd say it's not appropriate for that person to be breeding regardless of the linebreeding.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Breeding that close, the breeder needs to have extensive knowledge of the bloodlines, and a thorough understanding of genetics. Many great German shepherds have been produced on close up line breeding/in breeding, but the breeder knew exactly what he/she was doing. It can be done but the breeder has to be on top of his game to pull it off.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Doc and Lies, echo my feelings....very few dogs would I do it on, takes extensive knowledge of dogs and pedigree and traits of dogs, good and bad, and there must be a plan.
One of the greatest producing German Shepherds in East Germany was Held v Ritterberg. A V-7 dog in national Seiger show in conformation, produced a conformation national Seigren, and was legendary for his production of working dogs. Great structure, great producer, of show and working. His mother Burga v Haus Himpel was linebred 2-2 on arguably one of the great German Shepherds of alltime, Bernd v Lierberg. Bernd was VA-3 in conformation,(His brother was VA-1,Seiger, the same year so you know it wasn't an exception), was for many years the alltime producer of participants in Germany's national working championship. Is still considered the gold standard in producing working qualities. Oh, BTW, his brother BODO came to states and became CHAMPION ROM, so these dogs were excellent anywhere in the world. 
My point is Held's mother was inbred on a dog that was darn near perfect in all important aspects of the breed, structure, temperament, and producing. They bred her to arguably the greatest producing DDR dog; named Ingo v Rudigen, and voila you have Held v Ritterberg. A dog of great structure, great temperament, and tremendous producer of both. 
Like Doc and Lies says, it can be done but only by knowledgeable and experienced breeders with top of the line stock,JMO.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Not a breeder or an expert, but thought I would follow up on what Liesje and Doc said and provide an example of very close breeding that apparently worked out OK. Consider Burga vom Haus Himpel:
V Burga vom Haus Himpel - German shepherd dog
She is linebred 2:2 on a dog that by all accounts was an OK dog (understatement) and she produced some dogs that by all accounts were OK dogs as well (understatement).

Edit: Cliff beat me to the punch.


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

Didn't Eurosport do a 2-2 linebreeding on Titus? I believe they did and from what I understand, the pups turned out quite nice. Myself, I won't do it, but there are those who can pull it off, as has been previously stated.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

golfbum said:


> Saw an add from what I would think is a BYB with a linebreeding of 2:2 (half bother sire-half sister dam). Is this not just crazy! I would think that would be way to close and more like in-breeding? Thoughts
> 
> I am not looking at getting these dogs, just thought it was odd!


My dog's dam is a 2:2 but she was outcrossed to produce my dog's litter. So far so good. Excellent temperament and health.


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

to me personally, thats just straight up wrong.... but then again, most the breeds of dogs wouldn't exist.. to a point


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What is "wrong" with it? Done carefully, once in a while, by breeders who know the lines they are dealing with, it can be quite useful. It is not to be done by everyone.


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

unless you can decode the DNA of both closely related animals they may have PERFECT bodies, but their heads could end up messed up... there are just so many variables, even genes that have recessed for generations could end up in the litter that wouldn't have happened if the gene wasn't doubled up... but like i said, breeding the best of the best even if they are closely related could end up with either a better breed, same breed, or retarded breed.. 
it's all in the genes and the recessed ones are the buggers


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting thread!


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Following is a (long) article by Lloyd Brackett called "Planned Breeding." It discusses linebreeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing. Those who have never read it, might want to give it a go. It is interesting and pertinent to the discussion above: 

Brackett article

Also, following is a link to an article entitled "Brackett's Formula" by Carmen Battaglia:

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/articles/pdf/bracketts_fomula.pdf


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Montana,
I think the people here have all said that you have to know the structure,temperament, and history of both indepth before they would do it. I also think that everybody is saying that everybody should do it.Most people don't have the knowledge or the experience, but done right it can be the foundation for producing producers. I said this in another post and I will reiterate, it should never be done with a dog that shows "any" weakness in temperament, or history of weak temperament.. I remember the Waldesruh lines in America who had Korry and Korporal, were doing some inbreeding or very tight linebreeding. The dogs that resulted were almost all "spooks". They had fabulous structure and size for the ring, but the temperament was horrific. 
When I was in early twenties, I went to visit this dog named Ravenhaus Noah. He was at his handler's residence who was Wayne Green in Absecon, NJ. This dog had just gone Select from out of the classes in the GSDCA National Specialty. So I wanted to see this magnificent animal. (He was a big muscular dog with fabulous reach) Anyway, I'll never forget my disappointment when Wayne brings him out and he is standing there looking at me with his tail tucked up under his body and that worried look in his eyes....and this was in his yard, not on unfamilar territory. I remember thinking to myself when I left how sad it was that this nice looking dog was like that. Then I got mad when I realized some Judge told the world that he was one of the 10 best GS in the country that year because of his Select rating. He was bred from Waldesruh lines. So, Montana, you are right that breeding like this can be detrimental to the breed when the breeder is lacking knowledge or is breeding for the wrong thing.


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

you forgot the fact that both parents in the same family could have a recessive gene that combined together can produce drastic effects.. almost always later-in-life health

Inbreeding and Linebreeding

albeit like i said, there are situation where a better dog is produced but its like a toss of the dice, even if you have extremely extensive knowledge of the DNA strains, just saying that inbreeding or line breeding is doubled in both positive and negative side effects unlike breeding a pair that are 5-6 generations back..
so IMHO cloning would be more fair of a choice than in-breeding


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, I think the key to this thread is that the "breeder" in the first post is what is considered a BYB. I won't disagree that in some select instances "inbreeding" or 2:2 linebreeding can be done well. But it certainly doesn't sound like one of those instances.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Montana Scout said:


> you forgot the fact that both parents in the same family could have a recessive gene that combined together can produce drastic effects.. almost always later-in-life health


No, no one is forgetting that at all. They simply don't agree with your implication that this alone is reason to never do any form of inbreeding.

As others have said, this close of a linebreeding should only be done by a very few breeders with the experience and knowledge of the lines to pull it off, and who are doing it for a specific purpose (not out of convenience or ignorance). And by definition those few breeders would also have knowledge of what potential for negative recessive exists in the line, which can more often than not be predicted, or at the very least pretty accurately guessed at, through thorough research into the lines and previous offspring and other close relatives of the dogs involved, and would certainly take that into account.

Some breeders have used this form of linebreeding specifically for the purpose of uncovering such recessives, though this was done much more in years past when culling was also more common practice. And no, such recessives are not limited to things that will occur later in life.


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

i just don't like the odds of the negative side effects.. more negative's are put into place than non linear gene pools... 
and no i did not state ALL health issues will come later in life, but for instance, breast cancer... sometimes it will ensue mid life, but a lot of the time it is in older women

how do you know somethings not there when it hasn't occurred yet to further evaluate the health of the animal?


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## Montana Scout (Sep 27, 2010)

i could debate this thread to death, but all im am saying is that_ I personally_ don't agree with it, if a breeder wants to take the chance so-be-it I hope they just can take the responsibility of the offspring from an unexpected defect.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, I think the key to this thread is that the "breeder" in the first post is what is considered a BYB. I won't disagree that in some select instances "inbreeding" or 2:2 linebreeding can be done well. But it certainly doesn't sound like one of those instances.


Odds are that you are correct. However, I read the original post as characterizing the breeder as a BYB because it was a 2-2 linebreeding. As Cliff's, Doc's, Chris Wild's, and some of the other posts illuminate, a 2-2 breeding _in and of itself_ would not, in my view, warrant labeling the breeder a BYB. For instance, I don't think many would call the breeder of this dog a BYB:

Wolff van Tiekerhook - German shepherd dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Montana, and I would hope they would take the responsibility for the defects just like the people who don't line/inbreed should take the responsibility when they produce defects. At the end of the day everyone has an opinion on this and that is cool. All people can do is stand behind what they breed. In the many years I have bred, I have not possessed a dog that I would do a 2-2 on. I HAVE bred to a dog from a 2-3 breeding of a great hip producer to strengthen hip genetics in my breedings so I could have a greater choice of dogs to pick from. Hey, you do what you think is best based on your knowledgebase.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In reference to Wollf, Koos Haasing has been around the block some and has produced excellent dogs for twenty some years....he's has developed his line now for many generations. His history of producing strong working dogs is beyond reproach...he is the type individual we are talking about who can pull this off.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> In reference to Wollf, Koos Haasing has been around the block some and has produced excellent dogs for twenty some years....he's has developed his line now for many generations. His history of producing strong working dogs is beyond reproach...he is the type individual we are talking about who can pull this off.


Agree 100%. That is exactly why that example was used. Close linebreeding or "inbreeding" is not per se a bad thing. If it is done judiciously by those with the requisite knowledge, experience, and responsibility using exceptional dogs, history has proven it can be quite beneficial. However, there is obviously a big "if" involved. 

Thanks for your insights Cliff. I always enjoy your posts as they are backed by a great deal of knowledge, experience, and concern for the breed, and I undoubtedly learn something.


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