# Do you see any issues with this breeding?



## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

Just curious...
As I am not that well versed in line breeding.... (I'm still looking at it... but it's hurting my brain)
Thanks for any input.






Litter from Zoro v. Ljulin and Yosi vom Ljulin







www.pedigreedatabase.com





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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

Why do both dogs Sire/Dam have the same last name?


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

John T24 said:


> Why do both dogs Sire/Dam have the same last name?


Given that the names of the sire and dam start with the letter 'Y' and 'Z' they were from the same breeder one litter apart. If you look at the birthday of the sire and dam they are very close at 2 months apart. 

There is a bit high of an inbreeding coefficient for my personal tastes though as it is twice the breed average. It looks like they really wanted to line breed on Remo and his successful litter with Oprah von Aurelius.


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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

Thanks for the reply. 

another question though....

When I click on each individual dog, If you scroll down to the bottom of the page it states:
*No common ancestry was found in 5 generations *

quite confusing....


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## anagram (Apr 24, 2017)

Hi

If you as an individual purchase a dog , the dog comes with the kennel affix of the breeder.

If you are a (new) breeder and have registered kennel / affix you may change the dogs affix to be your own affix (usually on the dam , since that is the affix progression forward)

The 2 dogs are from two different kennels and are not from the same kennel what so ever, only the kennel affix has changed on purchase of each pup
So in fact this is Zoro vom Ritterburg and Yosi von Mining

Individually each dog has no line breeding

Only when placed together is there line breeding going back to 4/ 5 generations to several VA dogs (Remo Quenn Vegas)

Not unusual and well within the standard allowed. (The hope is that the stars align , the moon is at the right brightness and one of the pups is a replica of any or all of the VA great grandparents


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

anagram said:


> Hi
> 
> If you as an individual purchase a dog , the dog comes with the kennel affix of the breeder.
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that when you buy a puppy that the breeder can say no to letting you change the kennel name even if you plan on breeding that puppy later. I thought that you would have to work that out or defer to the policy of the kennel you were buying from. I assumed that kennels can choose their policy.

I may have this impression because the breeders that I look at all own males and females with kennel names that are not theirs. Is that only the case when a breeder purchases an adult dog that already has titles or have had a litter?


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

JRadtke said:


> I was under the impression that when you buy a puppy that the breeder can say no to letting you change the kennel name even if you plan on breeding that puppy later. I thought that you would have to work that out or defer to the policy of the kennel you were buying from. I assumed that kennels can choose their policy.
> 
> I may have this impression because the breeders that I look at all own males and females with kennel names that are not theirs. Is that only the case when a breeder purchases an adult dog that already has titles or have had a litter?


From what I've been told, it depends on the breed/breeder. I've seen Malinois kennels that allow registered name changes (It confuses me, but whatever). However, for GSDs and from what I've seen, it is NOT okay to change the kennel name from the breeder's kennel to yours - it can be considered disrespectful (I want my breeder to get credit for the genetics of my dog.) Then there's AKC and the other registries - I know AKC does not allow a name change once a title is earned. I'm not sure if it's the same with USCA/DVG


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Katsugsd said:


> From what I've been told, it depends on the breed/breeder. I've seen Malinois kennels that allow registered name changes (It confuses me, but whatever). However, for GSDs and from what I've seen, it is NOT okay to change the kennel name from the breeder's kennel to yours - it can be considered disrespectful (I want my breeder to get credit for the genetics of my dog.) Then there's AKC and the other registries - I know AKC does not allow a name change once a title is earned. I'm not sure if it's the same with USCA/DVG


What your saying was my understanding. Thus, that would lead me to the conclusion that the sire and dam in this post were from the same breeder. Would you agree that this would be the case?

I was keeping an open mind as to what the other poster was saying that the sire and dam were from different kennels.


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## anagram (Apr 24, 2017)

Apologies this could have been stated clearer to refer to the pups not adult dogs
"If you are a (new) breeder and have registered kennel / affix you may change the dogs affix to be your own affix (usually on the dam , since that is the affix progression forward)"

Different rules apply this is SV , so AKC and others are irrelevant if different

"saying that the sire and dam were from different kennels" Its clear from the database 

Original breeder needs to approve and it is pups at their 1st and only registration.
Common when a younger breeder " learns" from an more experienced breeder and then branches off


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

anagram said:


> Apologies this could have been stated clearer to refer to the pups not adult dogs
> "If you are a (new) breeder and have registered kennel / affix you may change the dogs affix to be your own affix (usually on the dam , since that is the affix progression forward)"
> 
> Different rules apply this is SV , so AKC and others are irrelevant if different
> ...


Hmmm, as I am still learning, this was my thought process. 

My thought was that the vom Ljulin kennels purchased both Martit von Mining and Yosie Vom Ritterberg for their kennel leaving the names alone. Then they studded out the bitches to Pepe vom Leithanwald and Fred vom Rumbatchel creating the sire and dam of the litter in question with the same kennel name being their own Vom Ljulin. 

Keeping the naming convention of the SV by incrementing the litter names up one in the alphabet and the b-days being only 2 months apart would be quite a coincidence had they been from different breeders.

Wouldn't that normally be the case?


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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

Wow 
great info. 
Thank you very much for taking the time to look into the charts for me.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

John T24 said:


> Wow
> great info.
> Thank you very much for taking the time to look into the charts for me.


As I look more at pedigrees it is starting to make more sense to me. I'm sure it will be the same for you as well. 

One thing of note though about pedigrees is that you need to focus the most on the sire and dam themselves. You have to make sure that you like them specifically. Not their great grandparents.


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## anagram (Apr 24, 2017)

JRadtke said:


> My thought was that the vom Ljulin kennels purchased both Martit von Mining and Yosie Vom Ritterberg for their kennel leaving the names alone. Then they studded out the bitches to Pepe vom Leithanwald and Fred vom Rumbatchel creating the sire and dam of the litter in question with the same kennel name being their own Vom Ljulin.


May not need to purchase , can also be a contract arrangement. Marit von Mining ( mother on dam side ) has puppies registered as 1 von Mining 2 von Palez Team from one of my fav Cronos del Siprio and 3 von Lujilin 





__





Progeny list for SG Extra vom Radhaus IPO1







www.pedigreedatabase.com




First listing shows Brenda Radhaus - Brik von Mining and Bumbo Radhaus 
So it can be the whole litter or a specific dog

Exactly how much of this is registered under SV is unclear , since Vom Ljulin is Bulgarian and some of the dogs may fall under their Federation

A google search revealed a rather unfortunate Vom Ljulin dog Odin


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

JRadtke said:


> As I look more at pedigrees it is starting to make more sense to me. I'm sure it will be the same for you as well.
> 
> One thing of note though about pedigrees is that you need to focus the most on the sire and dam themselves. You have to make sure that you like them specifically. Not their great grandparents.


Why do you focus most on sire and dam as opposed to grand/great grandparents? What’s the advantage?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Cliff, it's a stronger influence no? Parents roughly 50/50, grandparents roughly 25%, great grand parents 12.5%.

Are we missing something important?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Tim, certain lines are what breeders call 'prepotent'. They influence the pedigree far more than you would expect from how far back they are! I'm sure Cliff can give you some good examples.

When I look at pedigrees, I like to go back at least 7 generations, sometimes more. That also helps you catch any backmassing that may be there, and have a deleterious effect on the pups. There is horrible backmassing in the show line dogs, with many dogs showing up 12 or more times in a 7 generation pedigree. This greatly increases the chances of harmful genes being passed forward.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

each dog is a product of the genetics that are behind them.....some genes seem to carry through for generations without being expressed - dwarfs can be born, and the source of their dwarf gene can be 8-10 generations back....I know this from experience and discussions with a vet doing a study at the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands....recently, we are seeing black showline dogs....some where way way back there is a black dog...but you can trace 8 or 10 generations with a line that is black....bred to a "normal" black and red showline dog who is black and red for 50 years back....saw one at a show this summer....that black recessive had to be carried along unexpressed for 8 or 10 generations.

Prepotency is absolutely a factor.....we all know that certain dogs are cited and touted as being in a pedigree - even to being generations back and back...characteristics from these dogs are remarked upon because those characteristics are firmly linked - whether it be grips, hips, heads, markings, handler aggression - good and bad - prepotency pushes these items forward generation after generation and savvy breeders know to seek or avoid certain dogs depending on their own goals and level of comfort in risk taking.

Lee


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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)




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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

Meet Henry.

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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

He's a cuty, welcome Henry!!!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Personally spent most of my day on the freaking iceberg thread...that is a long thread...


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