# Advice please. My dog bit my niece.



## Muahh Lovee

My dog's name is archer. He is 1 years old and is 100lb. He's my big baby! I had 9 kids with me and we took archer to the creek and he loved the water. We came back home after an hr of fun and all the kids took a shower and came out to play. My sister and I was sitting by the tree house along with my nieces and nephews. Archer was with us and my niece who is 7 years old hugged him from the front. Archer backed up and walked to my sister and all I heard was a bark and my niece screamed and got up and ran and archer ran after her and bit her in the butt. My sister ran and tugged on his leash and he stopped. Archer ran to me with his ears down and whined. I had to hit him. All my nieces and nephews were shocked. I tied him to the tree and went to check up on my niece. Everyone came and saw the bite mark. It wasn't that bad but it was bleeding. 

*When archer was about 7 months, some white girl approached him and pet him roughly. He was traumatize, and when he see white little girls who are around the age of 7-9 years old, he tried to lunges at them and bark crazy*

I called my brother and told him what happened. He wants my dog to be put down. Once a dog bites, they'll bite again. I got mad and said "he grew up around Kyle (5) And kalia (3) and never once bit them and your kids kyle (16) and Kaylee (14). He loves them. He was around 9 kids (4-16 yrs old) and only bite kaylena (7) who hugged him in the front.

My sister and I talked about what happened. A lot of people said he looks aggressive. He may be big but never aggressive. He never growled or never had bite anyone til now. My sister saw the whole thing and said that archer let a big bark and as soon as my niece got scared she fled and that's when he bite her in the butt. My sister said that kaylena was face to face with him and trying to hug him in the front. but I told her I always hug him in the front. I always let him give me kisses. But she said that he didn't even growled just barked and only attacked her.

I need advice, tips to help him. I need to know if this is aggression and what I need to prevent this from happening next time.


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## cloudpump

Sounds like he was uncomfortable and barked. Your nieces excited reaction escalated the situation. 
This dog has limits and they weren't respected by the adults and children. Doesn't matter how many children he's around, he was not comfortable being hugged. Even though you do it, it's not the same with someone else. You have a bond built. 
This dog should not be around unknown children and as an owner you need to set limits. 
German Shepherds tend to build a bond with their owner. Outside of that they could be uncomfortable. 

That said, no child should be traumatized because of carelessness. No matter if it's deserved or not.


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## dogma13

Many dogs don't enjoy being hugged or even touched and petted excessively.They may tolerate it from their owners,but not actually enjoy it.
When he backed away from your niece he was giving a clear signal that he was uncomfortable.When she persisted,he felt he had to bite to make her understand.
Sounds to me like a hectic and fun day for all and your dog needed some time alone out of the chaos to relax and recover.
What I would do in the future is no longer allow hugging.When there is a lot of noise,fun,kids,and chaos - give your dog a space off by himself where the kids don't have access.
It really sounds like he just wanted some peace and quiet.That doesn't make him an aggressive dog.


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## WateryTart

cloudpump said:


> Sounds like he was uncomfortable and barked. Your nieces excited reaction escalated the situation.
> This dog has limits and they weren't respected by the adults and children. Doesn't matter how many children he's around, he was not comfortable being hugged. Even though you do it, it's not the same with someone else. You have a bond built.
> This dog should not be around unknown children and as an owner you need to set limits.
> German Shepherds tend to build a bond with their owner. Outside of that they could be uncomfortable.
> 
> That said, no child should be traumatized because of carelessness. No matter if it's deserved or not.


Yup. This was on you, OP, and management is on you going forward.

I think IF you allow him around kids anymore, there need to be rules in place for how they will interact with Archer. Strict rules. I won't tell you whether to privilege the dog or the kids in terms of who gets a time out if things get crazy, that has to be up to you to manage your human relationships, but you should build that framework for how people in your home interact with your dog. Like how you approach the dog, NO HUGGING, do not run in the yard, whatever works for your situation. My #1 rule for kids visiting my home is STAY OUT OF THE DOG'S KENNEL. I don't think I need to worry about her, but that's the one thing that would stress her out is having some kid trying to play in her crate. (Yes, I've had to reprimand a kid for that before...repeatedly.)

If my dog had a bite history of any kind, I personally would be inclined to just put the dog up when kids visit, because where I live, my dog would suffer heavily for any incidents.


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## wolfy dog

Teach the kids what you expect from them and be firm with them. Keep that session of contact with kids short and fun for the dog and put the dog somewhere else afterwards to prevent accidents like this one . He did nothing wrong; he is an animal that showed that he was uncomfortable being hugged and backed off. His next move was a bite. He should have never been in this position. He is not a stuffed animal that has come to life. Hugging is not a sign of love in dogs; it is a signal of domination, so that's why he was not OK with it. It is very dangerous to allow kids to hug dogs.


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## Sunsilver

Wolfy dog has it correct. That's why so many kid get bitten on the face. Dogs DO NOT like being hugged!

I had a GSD who was not good with kids. I think she had probably been in a situation where no rules and limitations were put on the kids, and they abused her. When she bit/nipped them she was kicked out of the house to fend for herself.

The worst she ever did when she bit was make a red mark on the skin, and maybe a few drops of blood. I talked to a professional trainer about it, and she told me, "If you dog were really dangerous, you'd be talking a trip to the hospital and major stitches. What she's doing is warning the kid they've gone too far, like a mother warns her puppies. But kids don't have nice thick fur coats to protect them, so they really feel it."

We made sure she was very closely supervised when kids were around. If we couldn't supervise, she was kept separate from the children. I had this dog for 15 1/2 years, and there was NEVER a serious incident with anyone, even when a little brat of a girl deliberately stepped on her tail.

I also bought a book I thought would help. It's called Childproofing Your Dog, by Brian Killcommons. Rule # 1 is NEVER let you child play with your dog unsupervised. You NEVER know what they are going to do! https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B002WAUVBE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


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## TwoBigEars

As the others have said, dogs in general do not like being hugged. In dog language, it is very rude and overbearing. Dogs might tolerate hugs from their owners or people they are very comfortable with, but that doesn't mean they enjoy the hugs and certainly not from other people.

All dogs, even the most tolerant, are capable of biting if they are pushed far enough. A bite like this does not have to happen again with appropriate management. Archer was probably extra tired after the earlier activity, and we all have less patience when we're tired. Careful management from now on, especially around children and do not allow them to hug him or get in his face. General rules for all dogs, no matter how kind or tolerant the dog normally is.


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## cdwoodcox

Archer backed up and walked to my sister and all I heard was a bark and my niece screamed and got up and ran and archer ran after her and bit her in the butt. 

I wasn't there but is there any chance this dog was playing. Or if not playing overcome by instincts to chase a fleeing prey and bite. Correct me if I am mistaken but a dog attacking wouldn't bite in the butt. He would have had to probably lean down to bite her there. Again I could be way off base but what I read didn't sound like a full blown aggressive dog attacking.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with cdwoodcox.. It does sound like he was uncomfortable with the kid hugging him, (where he actually could have bit her good in the face) but he backed off to get OUT of that situation, bark, the kid runs, his natural instinct to chase/maybe herd the kid kicks in..

My suggestion, don't let kids hug/hang on your dog..No I would not put him down because of this,,it's on the OP to manage situations like this, and teach kids not to hang on or hug the dog..especially ones he's not familiar with..


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## selzer

From your description, he wasn't comfortable with the hug and barked. When your niece screamed and ran he chased and bit in the butt. 

This should have never happened. He is a young dog that was over-stimulated, and then the kids were not taught to be respectful of the puppy and the owner did not put the pup up when things were chaotic and the day was already enough. That which runs must be chased, amped up from all the kids, the hubub and the playing/river, and then he gets hugged and communicates that isn't ok, and then he reacts to the girl's reaction. 

I have little tolerance for dogs who bite kids. On the other hand, all animals have limits. In the end, this is up to you, the owner. There are dogs that would not have bitten with that set of circumstances. And others would have bitten the child when she hugged him. 

He is young, just growing into his adult temperament. It can get worse, or he can get better, or you can get a lot better at managing him around kids, and putting him up after enough interaction.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Because of where/how we live, my dog has had very little interaction with children, especially up close.

Last summer we shared a cottage on vacation with a family member and her two kids. They are very nice, respectful, gentle kids. My dog was sweet and calm with them but I could tell he was a little freaked out by the running and flailing thing kids do. I had him sit next to me on his cot, and made sure they stayed out of his bubble, for awhile so he could just watch and take it in. 

He started wanting to go be more curious and I let him. But I was on him, I followed him or had him follow me, and he was never out of my sight for a second. They wanted to pet him a lot and I watched him closely every single time they approached and as they reached out to touch him. I never saw anything like grumpiness. Lots of times he'd make the smiley face and offer his belly, and they gave him belly rubs. If they approached and he didn't make any kind of receptive gesture, I asked them to leave him be and give him a break, or pet the other dog. There is no making her mad, especially by a child.

I took zero chances that weekend, I think a little cottage with two kids for a dog who has almost no experience is a lot to ask, and he did about as well as I could have hoped. 

I don't know when he'll be in close quarters with a child again but I hope what he took away from it was that kids are nice little people who give belly rubs and sometimes run and shriek in strange ways but it's nothing to worry about. And that I will help him deal with anything he doesn't know how to deal with.

I never want to have my dog be in a situation where they feel so overwhelmed they have to act out because they are on their own. If I put my dog in a situation, like I put him in a cottage with the kids, then I feel it's my responsibility to be sure it turns out well--not his. he was at the time a year old (same as OP's dog I think)..what does he know about the world, what's his maturity level? Certainly not something I'd trust someone else's kids with without my careful supervision


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## WateryTart

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with cdwoodcox.. It does sound like he was uncomfortable with the kid hugging him, (where he actually could have bit her good in the face) but he backed off to get OUT of that situation, bark, the kid runs, his natural instinct to chase/maybe herd the kid kicks in..
> 
> My suggestion, don't let kids hug/hang on your dog..No I would not put him down because of this,,it's on the OP to manage situations like this, and teach kids not to hang on or hug the dog..especially ones he's not familiar with..


I agree. Normally I don't have much tolerance for a dog that will bite because of liability - but this was human error and not the dog's fault or necessarily a sign of an aggressive or dangerous dog. So I wouldn't put him down either, although I could see the OP's brother refusing to visit OP's home again. OP would have to work that one out for himself (herself?).


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## ausdland

Hope he got an immediate hard correction and time out.


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## wolfy dog

ausdland said:


> Hope he got an immediate hard correction and time out.


I assume you meant with 'he' the owner. If you were to do this to the dog, the next time he won't back away but immediately attack and hate kids forever, and probably get confused'scared about his owner turning into a Cujo.


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## thegooseman90

Muahh Lovee said:


> I had to hit him.


He said this in the first paragraph so it's safe to assume the dog was corrected and I'm assuming it wasnt a playful slap on the a**. A dog biting a kid isn't acceptable or excusable under any circumstance in my book. But since she had a red mark and not an ambulance ride I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't aggression but more like playing/herding. I don't think he needs to be put down but I wouldn't let him around the kids unsupervised anymore. You can never be too careful when it comes to kids.


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## Nurse Bishop

wolfy dog said:


> I assume you meant with 'he' the owner. If you were to do this to the dog, the next time he won't back away but immediately attack and hate kids forever, and probably get confused'scared about his owner turning into a Cujo.


 He did say he hit the dog after it bit the child.


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## Slamdunc

I wouldn't let him around kids, any kids at all. I would get a professional trainer to help you but this is not the behavior of a stable confident dog. A lot of weak nerved GSD's will bite a person in the butt when they run. I'd be very careful of having this dog around children. I must say the description of the child and event is a little odd to me. 

You need to manage this dog. He has already proven to be aggressive and that he will bite. He shouldn't be off leash with any children and you need to learn to handle him better. Get some help and until then be very careful or he will bite some one else.


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## thegooseman90

Slamdunc said:


> I wouldn't let him around kids, any kids at all. I would get s professional trainer to help you but this is not the behavior of a stable confident dog. A lot of weak nerved GSD's will bite a person in the butt when they run. I'd be very careful of having this dog around children. I must say the description of the child and event is a little odd to me.
> 
> You need to manage this dog. He has already proven to be aggressive and that he will bite. He shouldn't be off leash with any children and you need to learn to handle him better. Get some help and until then be very careful or he will bite some one else.


Nice to see someone that doesn't make excuses for the dog and blame the kids/owner.


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## Slamdunc

wolfy dog said:


> I assume you meant with 'he' the owner. If you were to do this to the dog, the next time he won't back away but immediately attack and hate kids forever, and probably get confused'scared about his owner turning into a Cujo.


This dog needed to be corrected immediately and strongly. A very harsh correction is in order for biting a child. Slapping or hitting the dog is inappropriate and wrong. But, make no mistake, a dog should be sternly corrected for unprovoked aggression and biting someone, especially a child. 

I don n to believe in not correcting a dog for growling or thinking the dog will just bite the next time. If a dog growls it is a warning, biting comes next. I do not allow my dogs to growl at anyone unprovoked. They will be corrected for any signs of inappropriate aggression and they will remember the correction for the behavior. A dog that bites a child or anyone else unprovoked needs to be corrected in a way that it clearly understands to NEVER do that again. 

Make no mistake, this dog is not handled properly and is aggressive. This dog will get worse with out proper training, handling and socialization. Part of the problem is thinking that this dog may not be aggressive, that is wrong. This dog clearly can be aggressive and not addressing this is going to make it worse.


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## Slamdunc

thegooseman90 said:


> Nice to see someone that doesn't make excuses for the dog and blame the kids/owner.


This dog has issues and the owner is at fault for the bite. It is silly to blame this episode on the actions of "a little white girl" when the dog was 7 months old. That is just bizarre to me. 

Common sense tells the OP to not let a child or an adult hug this dog. Many dogs do not like this. Eye contact and staring at a dog is also a challenge and an invitation to get bit. Children do not know this and it is the responsibility of every dog owner to keep children and adults safe from their dog. People must also recognize that if a dog bites some one inappropriately then the dog is aggressive.


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## thegooseman90

I'm in agreement with you slam, and I'm not ashamed to say you're far more experienced than I am. But what I see a lot on here is making an excuse for the dog. Such as oh the kid hugged him and made him uncomfortable(or similar excuses) And from what I've always known and thought is that dogs should be tolerant of little kids rough petting and hugging and stuff. A lot of the advice and comments I see on the "my dog bit someone" threads seems to be excusing the dog regardless of what it did


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## Slamdunc

thegooseman90 said:


> I'm in agreement with you slam, and I'm not ashamed to say you're far more experienced than I am. But what I see a lot on here is making an excuse for the dog. Such as oh the kid hugged him and made him uncomfortable(or similar excuses) And from what I've always known and thought is that dogs should be tolerant of little kids rough petting and hugging and stuff. A lot of the advice and comments I see on the "my dog bit someone" threads seems to be excusing the dog regardless of what it did


I agree.


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## cdwoodcox

I don't think it is making excuses for a dog to tell someone (no crap your dog bit someone you can't allow that). Most of the instances of dogs biting someone I have read on here could have been prevented and should have never happened. Blaming the owner and explaining why a dog bit isn't making an excuse. 
If you own a dog you are responsible for that dog. You should know if the dog is OK around kids and kids hanging on and hugging. If the dog isn't keep them away. But don't allow a kid to climb on, hug on, jump on, pull its tail, ears, fur. And then blame the dog for correcting the kid. 
How do dogs correct other dogs? The same way if the owner doesn't step in that it's gonna correct a kid. Watch your **** kids and don't blame a dog for not watching your kid if the kid gets bit. If you don't teach and correct your kids the dog probably will.


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## Kazel

cdwoodcox said:


> I don't think it is making excuses for a dog to tell someone (no crap your dog bit someone you can't allow that). Most of the instances of dogs biting someone I have read on here could have been prevented and should have never happened. Blaming the owner and explaining why a dog bit isn't making an excuse.
> If you own a dog you are responsible for that dog. You should know if the dog is OK around kids and kids hanging on and hugging. If the dog isn't keep them away. But don't allow a kid to climb on, hug on, jump on, pull its tail, ears, fur. And then blame the dog for correcting the kid.
> How do dogs correct other dogs? The same way if the owner doesn't step in that it's gonna correct a kid. Watch your **** kids and don't blame a dog for not watching your kid if the kid gets bit. If you don't teach and correct your kids the dog probably will.


I personally correct both. I don't do IPO or anything, so my dogs know teeth on people is not allowed. They also know that I will watch out for them and stop kids from being bratty. If I catch a kid being inappropriate with an animal I will have them stop, but I also expect my dogs to not bite them in the meantime.


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## cdwoodcox

Kazel said:


> I personally correct both. I don't do IPO or anything, so my dogs know teeth on people is not allowed. They also know that I will watch out for them and stop kids from being bratty. If I catch a kid being inappropriate with an animal I will have them stop, but I also expect my dogs to not bite them in the meantime.


 I would correct a dog for showing aggression towards a family member child or adult. I just know that my dogs are dogs. I believe that my female Athena could possibly correct a human by means of a bite or nip if I allowed certain behaviors. Some dogs are quicker to bite than others. My theory is why put the dog in a position where it feels it has to. And if you do recognize that it is probably your fault not the dog.


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## thegooseman90

Claiming it as a "correction" on the dogs part is itself making an excuse. There's no difference in saying that and saying a kid who spanks his little brother is just correcting him. It's not his place to correct anyone and hitting the other kid for whatever reason isnt acceptable. And I can tell you from experience that line of reasoning doesn't work with police. I "corrected" a jerk in a restaurant and guess who also got corrected. A bite is a bite and regardless of what his intentions were with the bite he needs to know it's not acceptable and I really don't see the debate in that. How far does it escalate before its an issue? 

Now that's not to say there's no culpability on the owners part either. Sure the owner should've known his dogs issues and limits better. Maybe these dogs really are so dangerous that kids can't be allowed around them. Who am I to say? I don't think that's the case and I think that a proper gsd, or dog of any breed for that matter, should have a temperament that allows for a kid to hug it.


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## cdwoodcox

Unfortunately dogs don't think like humans. Yes we have domesticated them but they are still dogs. What we see as a sign of affection they don't. Do I think dogs deserve a free pass for biting no. Do I think that my dogs are my kids or fur babies no. They're dogs and if provoked enough they will bite. Saying that a kid spanking his brother is the same as an animal communicating in his animal way is not the same. 
Saying it is a correction is not an excuse it is why the dog bit. No excuse just why. 
As far as how far it has to escalate before it is an issue. I think it becomes an issue for before the bite. But the issue isn't the dogs it's the owners for not being responsible enough to intervene before a bite happens. 
And it sounds like you assaulted a jerk in a bar not corrected him. In humans a correction consists of. " it's Johnny not sam". Violence against humans is either assault or self defense.


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## thegooseman90

Exactly so you're excusing him because he's communicating in his way. And his way of "correcting" the kid via a bite isn't acceptable and should be corrected. How OP went about that is his business but I don't think he was wrong to do it. I'm not taking any issue at all with the owner taking responsibility. What I'm taking issue with is acting like these dogs are eggshells and should be tip toed around. In some instances it's necessary but I don't think it should be the norm. And if it is the norm then something went very wrong somewhere.


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## thegooseman90

cdwoodcox said:


> They're dogs and if provoked enough they will bite


 sorry I skipped right over this when responding. We're talking two different things here. Provoking a dog to bite should take a lot more than hugging on him and running away. The dog should be able to tolerate more provocation than that. And if he had bit her in the face would it be the same story? Poor Fido couldn't take that kinda stress and corrected her? I just can't help but think if this had been a stockier big headed breed you'd be hearing how it should be put down etc.


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## ausdland

wolfy dog said:


> I assume you meant with 'he' the owner. If you were to do this to the dog, the next time he won't back away but immediately attack and hate kids forever, and probably get confused'scared about his owner turning into a Cujo.


No I meant the dog. No need to go to counseling for year. Discipline the dog for biting the child. Children>Dogs


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## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> Claiming it as a "correction" on the dogs part is itself making an excuse. There's no difference in saying that and saying a kid who spanks his little brother is just correcting him. It's not his place to correct anyone and hitting the other kid for whatever reason isnt acceptable. And I can tell you from experience that line of reasoning doesn't work with police. I "corrected" a jerk in a restaurant and guess who also got corrected. A bite is a bite and regardless of what his intentions were with the bite he needs to know it's not acceptable and I really don't see the debate in that. How far does it escalate before its an issue?
> 
> Now that's not to say there's no culpability on the owners part either. Sure the owner should've known his dogs issues and limits better. Maybe these dogs really are so dangerous that kids can't be allowed around them. Who am I to say? I don't think that's the case and I think that a proper gsd, or dog of any breed for that matter, should have a temperament that allows for a kid to hug it.


All critters have limits. 

My folks are retired grandparents. They raised a GSD puppy from 14 weeks. They lived in a big house with just the two of them. Adult children would come occasionally, and me almost every day. But no children, until Christmas. And then there would be 28 people the house. My parents' six kids, and however many spouses, Their kids' kids, and the Kid's stepkids' kids. 

Door constantly opening and more people coming through. Some that had never been here before. There was even a police officer that came through because the stepkids' kids set off the burglar alarm in the shop. 

There were babies, small kids, big kids, young adults, middle-aged adults, drunken adults, and so forth. And the door keeps opening and shutting to let more people in and people out to go smoke. 

And then you have the boisterous drunk folks, and the heated political back and forth, and Kids running and screaming, OMG!!! I wanted to throw all the kids outside and bar the door. 

Cujo snapped at one of the kids for trying to ride him. His mom said, "Oh, he can do that to our dog at home" She then admonished her kid and told him he couldn't do that with other people's dogs. Cujo could have bitten the kid. He did not, but he did snap. We should have protected the dog better and not allowed the brat to climb on the dog. 

Sometimes, the series of events, the amount of chaos, can play into a less than stellar decision on a dog's part. Cujo snapped at my brother, who was teasing him to find out how far he could go with the dog, Jerk! And he snapped at my niece when she jumped off the couch and landed on him -- she hurt him. He did not connect, but he let her know, and so did Grandma. Poor kid! But he never bit anyone. This dog may never bite anyone again. He just needs better management, and maybe some training and an improvement on leadership.


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## Kazel

selzer said:


> All critters have limits.
> 
> My folks are retired grandparents. They raised a GSD puppy from 14 weeks. They lived in a big house with just the two of them. Adult children would come occasionally, and me almost every day. But no children, until Christmas. And then there would be 28 people the house. My parents' six kids, and however many spouses, Their kids' kids, and the Kid's stepkids' kids.
> 
> Door constantly opening and more people coming through. Some that had never been here before. There was even a police officer that came through because the stepkids' kids set off the burglar alarm in the shop.
> 
> There were babies, small kids, big kids, young adults, middle-aged adults, drunken adults, and so forth. And the door keeps opening and shutting to let more people in and people out to go smoke.
> 
> And then you have the boisterous drunk folks, and the heated political back and forth, and Kids running and screaming, OMG!!! I wanted to throw all the kids outside and bar the door.
> 
> Cujo snapped at one of the kids for trying to ride him. His mom said, "Oh, he can do that to our dog at home" She then admonished her kid and told him he couldn't do that with other people's dogs. Cujo could have bitten the kid. He did not, but he did snap. We should have protected the dog better and not allowed the brat to climb on the dog.
> 
> Sometimes, the series of events, the amount of chaos, can play into a less than stellar decision on a dog's part. Cujo snapped at my brother, who was teasing him to find out how far he could go with the dog, Jerk! And he snapped at my niece when she jumped off the couch and landed on him -- she hurt him. He did not connect, but he let her know, and so did Grandma. Poor kid! But he never bit anyone. This dog may never bite anyone again. He just needs better management, and maybe some training and an improvement on leadership.


The only thing that gets me about it is he apparently didn't bite when she hugged him. First he barked, kid got scared and ran and that's when he bit her on the butt. So I don't really completely follow that as the dog correcting the child for hugging him. Dog was probably definitely overwhelmed though and didn't like the hugging. What I've seen when my dogs are actually giving a correction to each other is a quick warning and it's over, they don't follow the other and then bite.


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## selzer

Yes, but when the child reacted by screaming and running, then the dog may have become the fun-police, or he might have kicked into prey drive, or herding drive. I think the dog was just totally amped up. When the kid started screaming and running the dog made a bad decision, chased and tried to stop her by biting the butt. It probably would have never happened if it wasn't already a long exciting day. It probably would have never happened if a lot of things. The thing is, it did happen, so now we deal with the fall out. 

I wouldn't put a dog down for a red mark, for a bite on the bum. Probably. It would really depend on the circumstances and whether I thought that I could have managed it a lot better. If I couldn't honestly say that I made some serious mistakes, then I would be facing some tough decisions.


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## Slamdunc

Kazel said:


> The only thing that gets me about it is he apparently didn't bite when she hugged him. First he barked, kid got scared and ran and that's when he bit her on the butt. So I don't really completely follow that as the dog correcting the child for hugging him. Dog was probably definitely overwhelmed though and didn't like the hugging. What I've seen when my dogs are actually giving a correction to each other is a quick warning and it's over, they don't follow the other and then bite.


Unfortunately, biting people in the butt has become a trait of some weak nerved GSD's. They are too nervous to become aggressive when the person is directly in front of them and they wait for the person to turn there back and walk away, then they strike. I've seen it many times. 

I've had people bring their so called super tough, super aggressive GSD's out to be evaluated. I will approach with a puppy tug and give the dog a look and face it. The dog runs behind it's owner, only because it is leashed and can't run away any further. Then I turn to walk away and the dog charges. As soon as I turn around again the dog takes off. Aggression is not always a sign of strength, it often can be a sign of insecurity and weakness.


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## thegooseman90

Selzer, in your post above I can understand what the dog did. It was a snap. A warning of sorts. He didn't bite anyone and went thru way more provocation and was even hurt and didn't bite anyone. Prior to slams post I really didn't even know it was an agressive move because of the fact that he didn't hurt the kid. The only thing I have any issue with is sometime I think the commenters here take a dog > human stance and make too many excuses for the dog. I mean I've seen posts where someone's dog bites someone and the thoughts are oh the kid shouldn't have pulled his tail or maybe he was sick and didn't want you grabbing his collar etc. and I don't think that kinda leeway is good for the breed. I mean we all love our dogs right? But at the end of the day they need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to these bites. Now I just wanna say again I'm not saying that the owners have zero culpability here and I do think they could've done a better job preventing the situation. But I 100% believe a correction - a very hard correction - was in order for the bite regardless of why it happened. It's ok to hold our dogs to that standard.


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## cdwoodcox

thegooseman90 said:


> Exactly so you're excusing him because he's communicating in his way. And his way of "correcting" the kid via a bite isn't acceptable and should be corrected. How OP went about that is his business but I don't think he was wrong to do it. I'm not taking any issue at all with the owner taking responsibility. What I'm taking issue with is acting like these dogs are eggshells and should be tip toed around. In some instances it's necessary but I don't think it should be the norm. And if it is the norm then something went very wrong somewhere.


 first, I never said that the owner was wrong in correcting the dog. I never said I wouldn't hold the dog accountable or correct the dog. All my posts have said is that most of the dog bite instances on here are the fault of the owner not the dog. Some people think that all dogs should follow our social norm. That all dogs should get along like siblings would. One big happy family. A brother shouldn't spank or correct his brother so why should a dog. Makes no sense to me. Not how it works. Dogs are not humans.
The issue isn't tip toeing around dogs. "which I never implied" The issue is realizing that a dog is an animal not a human. Now if you wanna allow your kids or grandkids to climb on your dogs, hug your dogs, etc... That is up to you. Just don't be surprised when the furbaby has enough and bites the kid. 
Now in a perfect world dogs would never bite children. and if you look back at some of my very first posts on this site I have stated that I would have no trouble taking a dog out back and putting a bullet in them for biting a family member or being unnecessarily/over aggressive. I still hold that belief. A truly aggressive dog in my opinion is different than a dog who is pushed to a point of correcting. Usually by this point numerous warnings have been ignored and the dog feels it has only one option. That isn't what I believe happened in the OP's case. I believe this had nothing to do with aggression. I stated that I believe this was a prey/play bite. Non aggressive. However, This bite could have been prevented. correct the dog strictly so it knows they aren't supposed to bite humans. But, understand where the true blame lies. With the owner.


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## cdwoodcox

thegooseman90 said:


> sorry I skipped right over this when responding. We're talking two different things here. Provoking a dog to bite should take a lot more than hugging on him and running away. The dog should be able to tolerate more provocation than that. And if he had bit her in the face would it be the same story? Poor Fido couldn't take that kinda stress and corrected her? I just can't help but think if this had been a stockier big headed breed you'd be hearing how it should be put down etc.


 
Had this been a stockier big headed breed my opinions would be the same as they are now.


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## cliffson1

I am awed at the expectations of all German Shepherds regardless of human circumstances....smh.


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## thegooseman90

Cdwoodcox, in that case I don't think we have much of a disagreement. I guess I misunderstood the point you were making. As a matter of habit I don't let kids or anyone pull tug or climb on any dog I own. At the same time if it occurred I would expect the dog to tolerate it and not bite the kid. And if he were to "correct" one of my kids or anyone else's kids then he would know very quickly it isn't acceptable and it isn't his place. And if he decided to take it upon himself to hate kids and attack more seriously or what have you (as someone else suggested) then I'd have no problem taking him out back either. I know that a dog can (and should) only take so much provocation but I don't think tolerating a hug is much to expect from a family breed. I think we can agree that the owner could've done a better job avoiding the incident all together but sometimes sh*t happens. Hopefully op learns a lesson here and doesn't take any chances with the dog anymore from here on.


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## thegooseman90

cliffson1 said:


> I am awed at the expectations of all German Shepherds regardless of human circumstances....smh.


 I can only speak for myself but I wasn't suggesting that any dog, gsd or otherwise, behave perfectly regardless of all human circumstances. But certain circumstances yes. A kid hugging them and playing for instance is something that should be tolerated. If a toddler wondered into someone's back yard should the dog be aware of the difference in threat a toddler provides vs that of an intruder? And if not, is he justified in attacking the toddler? If you say no then I'm not quite sure why the expectation he didn't bite this kid is any different. To me that's not an unrealistic expectation.


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## Sunsilver

Okay, here are my thoughts:

If this were MY dog, I would not put it down. The child was not hurt. Yes, teeth on human flesh is NOT a good thing, but I've had lots of puppies hurt me worse than that.

This may be a weak-nerved dog. It also may be a dog whose herding instinct/prey drive kicked in when the child screamed and ran. Remember that GSD I had that was not good with kids? Next-door kids were having a birthday party - lots of screaming with excitement, and running with the game my husband was playing with them. I saw Tasha's prey drive starting to kick in with the way she was focusing on the kids. I nipped it in the bud by putting her away in the house.

I realized my dog's limitations, and acted accordingly. Should we put our dogs to sleep because they are carnivores that have carnivore instincts? 

If that's what you think, go get yourself a stuffed toy! Even lap dogs can be dangerous. There's been a picture going around on FB the last week or so of the horrible damage a chihuahua did to a toddler's face.

That didn't happen in this case. This was a young dog that got over-excited and nipped a kid on the tush. Be more aware of the dog's limitations next time and don't let it happen again.


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## thegooseman90

Sunsilver said:


> Should we put our dogs to sleep because they are carnivores that have carnivore instincts
> 
> Be more aware of the dog's limitations next time and don't let it happen again.


I don't know who suggested he put the dog to sleep other than his brother. The second part of this quote was what most people suggested.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> All critters have limits.
> 
> My folks are retired grandparents. They raised a GSD puppy from 14 weeks. They lived in a big house with just the two of them. Adult children would come occasionally, and me almost every day. But no children, until Christmas. And then there would be 28 people the house. My parents' six kids, and however many spouses, Their kids' kids, and the Kid's stepkids' kids.
> 
> Door constantly opening and more people coming through. Some that had never been here before. There was even a police officer that came through because the stepkids' kids set off the burglar alarm in the shop.
> 
> There were babies, small kids, big kids, young adults, middle-aged adults, drunken adults, and so forth. And the door keeps opening and shutting to let more people in and people out to go smoke.
> 
> And then you have the boisterous drunk folks, and the heated political back and forth, and Kids running and screaming, OMG!!! I wanted to throw all the kids outside and bar the door.
> 
> Cujo snapped at one of the kids for trying to ride him. His mom said, "Oh, he can do that to our dog at home" She then admonished her kid and told him he couldn't do that with other people's dogs. Cujo could have bitten the kid. He did not, but he did snap. We should have protected the dog better and not allowed the brat to climb on the dog.
> 
> Sometimes, the series of events, the amount of chaos, can play into a less than stellar decision on a dog's part. Cujo snapped at my brother, who was teasing him to find out how far he could go with the dog, Jerk! And he snapped at my niece when she jumped off the couch and landed on him -- she hurt him. He did not connect, but he let her know, and so did Grandma. Poor kid! But he never bit anyone. This dog may never bite anyone again. He just needs better management, and maybe some training and an improvement on leadership.


Am I wrong for thinking a dog just doesn't belong in this environment, period? The description of the crowd, the fact that a child tried to ride him, an adult teased him to find out "how far he could go", another child jumped of a couch and landed on the dog and injured him....

If this was my party and my crowd, my dogs would not be there, period. Is there any dog who would behave saintly under those circumstances?


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## WateryTart

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Am I wrong for thinking a dog just doesn't belong in this environment, period? The description of the crowd, the fact that a child tried to ride him, an adult teased him to find out "how far he could go", another child jumped of a couch and landed on the dog and injured him....
> 
> If this was my party and my crowd, my dogs would not be there, period. Is there any dog who would behave saintly under those circumstances?


I honestly think mine would, but I wouldn't be putting her in that kind of situation. It would be immensely unfair to her. I don't take her into situations like that and if I can't find boarding for her, or leave her at home and run back to check on her/leave early, then I don't go either. She's my responsibility and that means I'm in charge of protecting her from that kind of stress and from feeling like she may need to defend herself. She trusts me - all previous tolerant responses I've seen from her exhibit that she trusts me to handle things - and I have to live up to that.

Regarding the "Oh, you're just making excuses for the dog" sentiment, I understand how it looks that way. I think there is a key difference between a reason and an excuse. There's no excuse for a dog biting, period. That's not acceptable, and I would sure hope we all agree on that. But if we dig into why it happened, we can do better at prevention next time around. Most of the time I think it goes back to the owner; there are dogs with weak temperaments out there, but the dog is still just an animal, so it's on the owner to be aware, read their dog, and keep both people and dogs safe.


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## Kyrielle

Personally, I wouldn't put the dog down. However, I wouldn't allow him around young children for quite a long time (until he was much older and calmer; and that would be a trial run).

I don't think the dog was being aggressive. Most likely, the dog got worked up, excited and anxious, and as soon as the kid started screaming and running like prey, he went into prey drive and nipped her flank. Just as all herding breeds do when encountering something they consider "herdable".

This issue needs to be resolved with:

1. The dog
2. The owner
3. The children

1. The dog needs to be taught not to chase or nip children. Ever. He needs to be trained to sit and move calmly while children are running around like they tend to do.

2. The OP needs to do the above training. I would also recommend putting the dog away when younger children are present. I assume the dog is fine around teenagers? (Since they don't run around and scream.) Either way, the dog needs to be put away.

3. The children need to be taught not to hug dogs they don't own or to run from them. They need to be taught how to properly approach and pet a dog, and how to behave around them. They need it made exceptionally clear to them that running from a dog is the best way to get chased by a dog. If they feel scared, they should be taught the "be a tree" method (which basically means, arms and legs together and be stay completely still).


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## newlie

I'll just be honest and say I have a hard time dealing with a situation where a dog seriously bites a person, particularly a child, without extenuating factors and even less patience if it happens more than once. But this was a relatively young dog who nipped a child on the butt. Should it be taken very seriously? Of course. But that dog was capable of inflicting a lot of damage and did not do it. Yes, he should have been corrected and yes, it sounds like the OP should have intervened. Mistakes happen to all of us and hopefully, we learn from them.

I would not put the dog down, but I would put him up if children visited. He has already shown that he is not comfortable around them and even with being watchful, things can happen. You can tell a child not to hug the dog, but what if he has other triggers? What if a young child toddles and falls in to him? What if one of them steps on his toe or his tail? What if children are running around laughing and screaming? To me, it would not be worth taking a chance.


And, yes, a trainer for the family would be a good idea, but I still would not allow the dog around children. The stakes are too high.


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## Raisedbyshepherds

A dog whose owner does not have enough control to stop it from chasing a child and biting from behind does not need to be around children. Or small animals. Or anything that moves fast. If my dogs acted that way they would be of no use to me with my little goats or chickens. A dog that chases and nips will very very easily escalate to a hard bite. No excuses for anyone here. Dog was wrong. Child was wrong. The dogs owner was wrong. 
The dog may be a great dog. But chasing and nipping from behind is very bad. No impulse control. No excuses.


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## Thecowboysgirl

WateryTart said:


> I honestly think mine would, but I wouldn't be putting her in that kind of situation. It would be immensely unfair to her. I don't take her into situations like that and if I can't find boarding for her, or leave her at home and run back to check on her/leave early, then I don't go either. She's my responsibility and that means I'm in charge of protecting her from that kind of stress and from feeling like she may need to defend herself. She trusts me - all previous tolerant responses I've seen from her exhibit that she trusts me to handle things - and I have to live up to that.
> 
> Regarding the "Oh, you're just making excuses for the dog" sentiment, I understand how it looks that way. I think there is a key difference between a reason and an excuse. There's no excuse for a dog biting, period. That's not acceptable, and I would sure hope we all agree on that. But if we dig into why it happened, we can do better at prevention next time around. Most of the time I think it goes back to the owner; there are dogs with weak temperaments out there, but the dog is still just an animal, so it's on the owner to be aware, read their dog, and keep both people and dogs safe.


I can say with near certainty that my female could be in that environment and not even threaten, she just doesn't have it in her. She might try to evade, she would likely come to me for help, it would definitely stress her out and I would just never expose her to that.

I mean, this is the dog who had a balloon bounced off her head by someone's unattended child in the grocery store when she had been in harness less than 6 months.


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## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> Selzer, in your post above I can understand what the dog did. It was a snap. A warning of sorts. He didn't bite anyone and went thru way more provocation and was even hurt and didn't bite anyone. Prior to slams post I really didn't even know it was an agressive move because of the fact that he didn't hurt the kid. The only thing I have any issue with is sometime I think the commenters here take a dog > human stance and make too many excuses for the dog. I mean I've seen posts where someone's dog bites someone and the thoughts are oh the kid shouldn't have pulled his tail or maybe he was sick and didn't want you grabbing his collar etc. and I don't think that kinda leeway is good for the breed. I mean we all love our dogs right? But at the end of the day they need to be held to a higher standard when it comes to these bites. Now I just wanna say again I'm not saying that the owners have zero culpability here and I do think they could've done a better job preventing the situation. But I 100% believe a correction - a very hard correction - was in order for the bite regardless of why it happened. It's ok to hold our dogs to that standard.


Sorry for the miscommunication, not all snaps happened that Christmas, Only the kid trying to ride him. The kid landing on him happened another day and she was strongly corrected. As for my rotten older brother, he was constantly teasing that dog and trying to get him to act. He wanted to see how far he would go. My dad told him to knock it off. My mom told him that the dog hadn't bitten anyone yet, but he could be the first one. My mom told me that she would NOT put the dog down if he bites Bobby. Finally he stopped when the dog was medicated with epilepsy. My folks tried to reduce stress for the dog, but Christmas was just hairy. 

As for children > pets, I agree. Mostly. Dog bites kid = dog gets put down, until I heard the story about the dog being up on the table to be euthanized, when the vet noticed something in the dog's ear. It was a pencil rammed down in there. There was a reason the dog bit the 3 year old, and they did not kill the dog. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Am I wrong for thinking a dog just doesn't belong in this environment, period? The description of the crowd, the fact that a child tried to ride him, an adult teased him to find out "how far he could go", another child jumped of a couch and landed on the dog and injured him....
> 
> If this was my party and my crowd, my dogs would not be there, period. Is there any dog who would behave saintly under those circumstances?


Sorry for the miscommunication, just added in the other two times the dog had snapped. I must now have been very clear about that. But yes, Christmas is hairy when you have a big family. My mother's take on it was the dog lived there. He did learn to handle the wall to wall people. For a while we had a large pet yard in the living room with the baby toys in it, for the babies, so they could get away/play with their toys without the dog interfering. 

That crazy Christmas the dog was almost 17 months old, not much older than this dog in this thread. The point is that sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. 28 people of all shapes and sizes all day and all night and into the next day. Or, 9 kids and a river trip, and extended fun. A young dog can be overwhelmed and act up and have a lower threshold. 

Some dogs will communicate with whining, yawning, and lick lipping. Some will communicate with a bark, growl, lip-lifting and showing teeth, or a snap. And some will nip and even bite. When there are 9 kids running around, chances are some of the more subtle body language could have been overlooked by adults. Happens. 

And yes, the biting in the butt after giving up on a frontal assault (though a frontal assault would certainly have netted this pup a death penalty) is indicative of weak character. I would be more concerned if the dog was fully an adult. But evenso, if the dog has weak nerves, is physically hitting the dog more likely to improve or accelerate problems with children down the line? Hard to say. Dogs are individuals.


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## thegooseman90

That's different to me. If my brother (a big adult) teased and provoked my dog to a bite I would put him down. But he's fully aware of what he intended to do. As far as the story about the 3 year old that dog (in my house) would've went the same way as old yeller. I can sympathize with the face that the dog may not like a pencil being stuffed in his ear but at 3 years old my kid was less than 50 lbs and the dog could've easily walked away or whatever. No 3 year old kid is gonna hold a gsd and pencil his ear til he has no choice but to attack. Right or wrong that mistake is fully - in my mind - on the owners in that situation. But as a family dog you can never trust him around kids anymore. Not to mention how traumatized that kid will be from the dog biting her. Now in ops story I doubt there's all that much trauma - luckily - but you can't trust that it won't happen again.


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## selzer

Kids > dogs. But we are assuming all dog owners are dog-savvy. They are not. I am not picking on the OP. But there it is. The OP has come here because her dog has done something scary, and not because she has this wonderful thing called a German Shepherd Dog puppy and she wants to learn everything there is to know about the breed and training and nutrition and all the fun little stories people have when their dog is right near the top of the list of things that matter to them. I am not saying the dog doesn't matter to her. Obviously it does. Obviously, she loves the dog very much and wants the dog to have fun with the children. And enjoys the dog. And certainly does not want to put the dog down. Frankly, I do not see any need for that at all. Getting a trainer is a good idea. But I would treat this more like if you are watching out the window and the cousins are playing together, and suddenly your kid picks up an apple or a stick and hits a cousin with it. 

You feel terrible. You can't believe your kid did that. You want to know why. But you aren't going to put your kid down, even if the other kid has a mark on him. Even if the other kid has to get a stitch or two. A young dog is a lot like a kid. Sometimes they do the bad thing. And if it is very serious, they get put down. Usually though, they do something that is bad enough to give us a wake-up call. Bad enough to go to a professional and have the dog assessed and follow a new plan for training, leadership, and management. 

Now, just to prove that the OP is not alone with the dog-bites-kid-at-family-doing, I have another story. 

My family is not the best of dog owners. Seriously. I am the only nutty dog person in the family. My sister in law is now breeding some form of spaniels, but they are the ones that left their old Collie dog with a dislocated hip, and wouldn't get it fixed, and the next mutt puppy they got from the pound got slaughtered in the road in front of the house. And that is the brother that wanted to see how far Cujo would go. 

Well, anyway, it isn't that brother but my other older brother who has this dachshund-beagle mix. He's had it forever. When his kid was 4 the thing put a big gash on the kid's face. They thought the dog was sleeping and the kid startled it. When the kid was 7 or 8, he sported another big gash on his face. The rest of the family wondered why the dog was still alive. My SIL said they don't know what Michael did to the dog. 

Well, a few years ago, my little sister whose girls were both pre-school age, 3-4 or 4-5, invited the family over to her house for New Years' Eve. Lynn was traveling with her daughters and I think my oldest brother was fighting with her, and my little brother was working, and my folks are old and don't go anywhere but doctors' appointments. So it was just me, and my sister's family and my brother's family. They live in Akron, about 2 hours away, so they were spending the night. So they brought Tiger. 

I got there at about 6PM and was hoping to get home in time to shoot off the gun. Ah well. Best laid plans. I get in the door and my sister tells me that the dog will be so happy when she puts Gwennie to bed. I ask her why. She said that Gwennie wouldn't leave the dog alone. Now this is the sister that totally freaked out when her kid came near Babsy, and the BIL that told me if Cujo bit him, he would kill every dog in my kennels. 

So I walked into the other room and, loud enough for my sister to hear, I asked my SIL, "Isn't that the dog that bit Michael twice?" My SIL lied and said, "just once." Why lie? Really? Mom and I both remember the gashes in Michael's face on more than one occasion. Ah well. 

Lisa put the kids to bed at 8 without any bites, and then broke her head open and had to go to the ER and so I ended up sticking around until 2AM and didn't get to shoot my gun off. 

But the next morning. Tiger bit Gwen in the ear. Who do you blame? The dog? He was 12 or 13 years old, and wasn't good with kids. The dog's owners? They were obviously in denial about their dog. The kid's parents? They could have been a lot more careful seeing their kid pestering and elderly dog and knowing it was capable of biting. 

But when the dog is a GSD, then the dog can do absolutely nothing wrong and people are afraid of them and worried for their kids, and think you ought to get rid of them if they even look at your kids. When the dog is a small mixed dog, well, it gets a free pass, even if it bites your kid, and their kid. 

Insanity. My sister WANTS her kids to be afraid of dogs. She told me that. This is my little sister, not the sister that lets me have her kids around all my dogs. Ah well, family. I can only say that if one of my dogs knocks one of her kids down or scratches them with a toenail, I will never hear the end of it. But my brother's dog can bite her kid. 

Not all people are dog-crazy. They don't know everything there is to know about doggy-body language. They do not know when enough is enough and they should probably put the dog up for a while. They do not know enough to expect the dog not to feel comfortable being hugged by someone who doesn't live there, or that the dog might chase a child that is running and screaming. 

You are not alone. And there is hope. You don't have to put the pup down. I think this is your wake-up call, and you need to step up leadership, training and management, and work with someone real, someone with good experience with working/herding breeds.


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## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> That's different to me. If my brother (a big adult) teased and provoked my dog to a bite I would put him down. But he's fully aware of what he intended to do. As far as the story about the 3 year old that dog (in my house) would've went the same way as old yeller. I can sympathize with the face that the dog may not like a pencil being stuffed in his ear but at 3 years old my kid was less than 50 lbs and the dog could've easily walked away or whatever. No 3 year old kid is gonna hold a gsd and pencil his ear til he has no choice but to attack. Right or wrong that mistake is fully - in my mind - on the owners in that situation. But as a family dog you can never trust him around kids anymore. Not to mention how traumatized that kid will be from the dog biting her. Now in ops story I doubt there's all that much trauma - luckily - but you can't trust that it won't happen again.


Dog was a corgi I think. Even so, the dog is a formidable dog. And a 3-year-old is a 3-year-old. But, a dog used to being handled, will allow a human to put something in their ear. My dogs do. The dog was injured by the child and the dog bit the kid. It was not an attack it was a bite. I don't give a darn if the kid feels traumatized. It should feel traumatized for putting a pencil down a dog's ear! 

There is a difference between a bite and an attack. 

There was a ten year old girl, whose parents got a puppy and she was given some of the responsibilities with the puppy. After a while the parents noticed the puppy didn't want to go near the girl. They would tell the girl to take the puppy out. And the girl would be angry for having to leave the television because of the puppy, and when she got the puppy outside, she would kick it. 

The parents actually witnessed the abuse and the dog turn and bite the girl. And when the girl came in with a bite wound they punished her for doing what she did to the dog. I don't know if they ended up re-homing the dog or not. Children are more important than dogs, but they are not always right. And it is not always right to kill a dog for what happens. There can be extenuating circumstances.


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## thegooseman90

Well in that example I 100% blame the owners. The dog is what it is. They knew he was aggressive. I wouldn't own and feed such a dog. But I want to point out I'm an equal opportunity bar raiser. I hold all dogs regardless of breed to that same expectation. If I see those warning signs they're gone before any real issue arises because I don't care how good it hunts or how good it does whatever job it has, to me it's not worth risking someone being bitten and hurt. Now if you knowingly own and allow an aggressive dog to be near people and bite someone that's on you 100%. And unfortunately it happens all the time.


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## thegooseman90

The difference here is a 10 year old vs a 3 year old. A 3 year old doesn't understand and doesn't deserve to be traumatized from a dog bite. So who's to blame? Parents 95% and dog 5%. Not the 3 year old. Would you say i don't care if the 3 year old feels a shock she shouldn't be putting things in an outlet?


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## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> The difference here is a 10 year old vs a 3 year old. A 3 year old doesn't understand and doesn't deserve to be traumatized from a dog bite. So who's to blame? Parents 95% and dog 5%. Not the 3 year old. Would you say i don't care if the 3 year old feels a shock she shouldn't be putting things in an outlet?


3 year old kids can know enough not to hurt the dog. I think my sister's kid was 3 when she jumped off the couch onto the dog and the dog snapped at her. A dog bite will not fry the brain like an outlet will, but a 3 year old knows better than to put something in an outlet. Some of us were reading by the time we were 3. I dunno. There may be a range of intelligence at that age, but 3 year old do understand hurting and not hurting a dog, they can be taught to respect the dog. They should be able to play in the other room with the dog while you are fixing dinner without putting a pencil down the dog's ear. The kid got bitten when it put a pencil in the dog's ear. That is like learning that there are consequences to some actions. As far as I know they didn't have any further troubles with the corgi or the kid. These were dog-people, and the kid was raised around dogs, the last I heard, he was married and his wedding present was a GSD from his mother -- so no long-term damage done.


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## newlie

thegooseman90 said:


> That's different to me. If my brother (a big adult) teased and provoked my dog to a bite I would put him down. But he's fully aware of what he intended to do. As far as the story about the 3 year old that dog (in my house) would've went the same way as old yeller. I can sympathize with the face that the dog may not like a pencil being stuffed in his ear but at 3 years old my kid was less than 50 lbs and the dog could've easily walked away or whatever. No 3 year old kid is gonna hold a gsd and pencil his ear til he has no choice but to attack. Right or wrong that mistake is fully - in my mind - on the owners in that situation. But as a family dog you can never trust him around kids anymore. Not to mention how traumatized that kid will be from the dog biting her. Now in ops story I doubt there's all that much trauma - luckily - but you can't trust that it won't happen again.


If a child managed to ram a pencil down a child's ear, you have to wonder how much attention was being paid to the child OR the dog. Maybe the dog tried to move away and couldn't get away from the little booger. Maybe there was no access to another room. Sure, it may not have happened in your house or in mine because we wouldn't allow it to happen. Do you ever watch any of those you tube videos where people insist on putting a child on the dog's back or watch and say "Isn't that cute?" when a child torments a dog. Watching them myself, I wonder that more kids don't get bitten than do.

There really are two extreme schools of thought. The dog always dies if it bites, even if he is being beaten with a 2x4, or the dog can do no wrong. I think most people on here are in the middle. I hate to see any dog put down but sometimes it's the right thing, the only thing that can be done. Other times, issues can improve with training or management or medication. But people who have dogs, particularly large, powerful dogs, have to assume some responsibility and use some common sense. If they can't do that, they shouldn't have the dogs in the first place.


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## selzer

newlie said:


> If a child managed to ram a pencil down a child's ear, you have to wonder how much attention was being paid to the child OR the dog. Maybe the dog tried to move away and couldn't get away from the little booger. Maybe there was no access to another room. Sure, it may not have happened in your house or in mine because we wouldn't allow it to happen. Do you ever watch any of those you tube videos where people insist on putting a child on the dog's back or watch and say "Isn't that cute?" when a child torments a dog. Watching them myself, I wonder that more kids don't get bitten than do.
> 
> There really are two extreme schools of thought. The dog always dies if it bites, even if he is being beaten with a 2x4, or the dog can do no wrong. I think most people on here are in the middle. I hate to see any dog put down but sometimes it's the right thing, the only thing that can be done. Other times, issues can improve with training or management or medication. But people who have dogs, particularly large, powerful dogs, have to assume some responsibility and use some common sense. If they can't do that, they shouldn't have the dogs in the first place.


Maybe kids nowadays need to have their parents' eyeballs on them 24/7. But I did an awful lot of babysitting my sister's kids were between the ages of 2 and 8. And I liked to be right with them. But I also cooked the meals for my sister and her room-mates. And while some of the time, the kids would help me make this or that, other times I was just aware of where they were and what they were doing. Often I brought a dog with me. The girls loved my dogs. I would have them read to my dogs, and Elena was reading at 3 years old. 

I think that if they wanted to, they could have put a pencil down my dog's ear.


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## thegooseman90

In seltzers example of the pencil I blame that 100% on the parents. No way a 3 year old should be left alone with a living creature like that for both the dogs safety and the kids safety. A 3 year old knows some right from wrong but doesn't grasp the entirety of their decisions. She probably thought it was funny and didn't understand that it was hurting the dog. My oldest used to do similar stuff to me when she was little. And she thought it was funny to try and poke my eyes and would laugh and make a game of me closing my eyes and turning my head away. That's why there I blame the kids parents for leaving the kid unattended like that. In the other example that's 95% the kids fault because she was 10 years old and knew what she was doing and 5% the parents fault for allowing it. And if that was my kid I would correct her just as sternly as the dog that nipped.


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## LuvShepherds

I have a somewhat different take on this. I would never have a big, strong, active young dog running around loose with 9 children. Even the best behaved dog can be stressed out and pushed to the edge by noise and being grabbed and hysteria. The OP is responsible for the dog and its behavior and for the bite. I believe children always come before dogs, but this dog was put into an impossible situation. Maybe another dog or another breed could handle that much commotion, but 9 children playing and having fun are not going to be quiet or even respectful of a dog's space. Even my friend with a bomb proof Golden puts her dog in another room when she has a houseful of children, for the dog's protection. 

When my children were young I had a whole class to our home for a party. I had a different breed then, another herding dog. I put him in the garage with food and a dog bed until the last child left for his protection. Think about your dog next time and keep your dog safe. If the children can't get to the dog, then the dog can't bite anyone. Even more dangerous than a little nip, an overexcited huge dog can jump on a small child, knock the child down and break a bone.


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## thegooseman90

LuvShepherds said:


> Even more dangerous than a little nip, an overexcited huge dog can jump on a small child, knock the child down and break a bone.


 That's a good point. I heard a story one time, now keep in mind this is like a 3rd hand recount, from a guy I work with. When he was in college one of his friends had a 2 year old and a big Rottweiler. Now the toddler had a cookie or something and was running around flailing her arms like 2 year olds do and lost the cookie. Rotti saw this and thought someone threw her a cookie and her and the 2 year old were running towards it at the same time and the rotti crashed into her and knock her over and the girl (I believe) smacked her head on the floor or something and died. So yea sometimes a bite isn't the most dangerous thing that can happen with a big dog and a little kid.


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## LuvShepherds

thegooseman90 said:


> That's a good point. I heard a story one time, now keep in mind this is like a 3rd hand recount, from a guy I work with. When he was in college one of his friends had a 2 year old and a big Rottweiler. Now the toddler had a cookie or something and was running around flailing her arms like 2 year olds do and lost the cookie. Rotti saw this and thought someone threw her a cookie and her and the 2 year old were running towards it at the same time and the rotti crashed into her and knock her over and the girl (I believe) smacked her head on the floor or something and died. So yea sometimes a bite isn't the most dangerous thing that can happen with a big dog and a little kid.


That is tragic.


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## newlie

thegooseman90 said:


> "Well in that example I 100% blame the owners. The dog is what it is. They knew he was aggressive."
> 
> I am confused by this, maybe I am reading you wrong. Are you saying the dog was "aggressive" because he bit a 10 year old child who was kicking him? That's not aggression, that's defending himself. To me, that is as lopsided as saying that a dog with two or three unprovoked serious bites under his belt should not be put down.


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## thegooseman90

newlie said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Well in that example I 100% blame the owners. The dog is what it is. They knew he was aggressive."
> 
> I am confused by this, maybe I am reading you wrong. Are you saying the dog was "aggressive" because he bit a 10 year old child who was kicking him? That's not aggression, that's defending himself. To me, that is as lopsided as saying that a dog with two or three unprovoked serious bites under his belt should not be put down.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I mistakenly ran two thoughts together. I blame the parents in both instances but the aggressive dog I was referring to was the one that left the gashes on the little kids face in one of seltzer stories above. The parents refused to admit the dog was aggressive and left him unattended with the kid and he bit him in the face twice. The 10 year old kicking the dog I don't believe led to a bite, but if it had I don't know that I'd blame the dog for that.
> 
> Yea the story was pretty tragic. The rotti apparently laid and whined and licked the baby like she knew it was bad. They didn't put the dog down but they turned her into a shelter because they couldn't handle her being around - guess it was a constant reminder - and she ended up being put down because no one would adopt her. Sad all around
Click to expand...


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## selzer

thegooseman90 said:


> In seltzers example of the pencil I blame that 100% on the parents. No way a 3 year old should be left alone with a living creature like that for both the dogs safety and the kids safety. A 3 year old knows some right from wrong but doesn't grasp the entirety of their decisions. She probably thought it was funny and didn't understand that it was hurting the dog. My oldest used to do similar stuff to me when she was little. And she thought it was funny to try and poke my eyes and would laugh and make a game of me closing my eyes and turning my head away. That's why there I blame the kids parents for leaving the kid unattended like that. In the other example that's 95% the kids fault because she was 10 years old and knew what she was doing and 5% the parents fault for allowing it. And if that was my kid I would correct her just as sternly as the dog that nipped.


First off, it's Selzer -- no T. That's my name, my real name, first name is Sue, and I am a bit attached to it, don't like it mutilated. 

The person with the corgi had a 3 year old boy. Their kid, their dog. If you think they never strained the spaghetti noodles, while the kid and the dog were in the other room together, I have a bridge to sell you. The pup and the boy were raised together. For some reason, that day he had this spectacular idea to put a pencil in the dog's ear. The dog trusted him until it had a pencil in its ear and was hurt. Then it bit him, bad enough for them to put the dog down. They were astonished the dog would do this, because the dog and the boy were inseparable. And they were just as astonished that the kid would do that. Kids do stupid things sometimes. Luckily, this time neither the dog nor the kid were damaged beyond repair, but it was a near thing for the dog.

ANY dog might bite if they are hurt or frightened badly enough. But after that bite, and after the pain is dealt with, there is no reason that the relationship cannot go back to what it was before. 

I told that my brother let his collie get hit by a car and had its hip dislocated. Then he went and picked the dog up (to take it to the vet). The dog bit him in his face. Well after refusing to pay for an operation for the dog, he brought the dog home and let him heal. The hip would be dislocated again and again over the years, but his opinion of that dog was that it was the best dog ever. The dog did not hold it against him that he hurt the dog further by picking it up. After my brother brought the dog home, it never showed him any further aggressions. As with the corgi. The corgi bit the child because it was experiencing terrible pain. Any dog might bite in this situation. 

I broke my dog's toe by stepping on it, and she did not bite me. Had she bitten me, it would have been my fault, and I would not fault her for that. Not all dogs are alike. 

BTW, sometimes single people raise children. And those parents sleep. Sometimes little kids wake up. And they jump out of cribs and beds. Some of us forget what 3 year olds are actually capable of because it was a while ago, and we don't remember back so well. But you really don't stare at them every moment. You can go to the toilet without them, for instance.


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## thegooseman90

selzer said:


> Well, anyway, it isn't that brother but my other older brother who has this dachshund-beagle mix. He's had it forever. When his kid was 4 the thing put a big gash on the kid's face. They thought the dog was sleeping and the kid startled it. When the kid was 7 or 8, he sported another big gash on his face. The rest of the family wondered why the dog was still alive. My SIL said they don't know what Michael did to the dog.
> 
> Well, a few years ago, my little sister whose girls were both pre-school age, 3-4 or 4-5, invited the family over to her house for New Years' Eve. Lynn was traveling with her daughters and I think my oldest brother was fighting with her, and my little brother was working, and my folks are old and don't go anywhere but doctors' appointments. So it was just me, and my sister's family and my brother's family. They live in Akron, about 2 hours away, so they were spending the night. So they brought Tiger.
> 
> I got there at about 6PM and was hoping to get home in time to shoot off the gun. Ah well. Best laid plans. I get in the door and my sister tells me that the dog will be so happy when she puts Gwennie to bed. I ask her why. She said that Gwennie wouldn't leave the dog alone. Now this is the sister that totally freaked out when her kid came near Babsy, and the BIL that told me if Cujo bit him, he would kill every dog in my kennels.
> 
> So I walked into the other room and, loud enough for my sister to hear, I asked my SIL, "Isn't that the dog that bit Michael twice?" My SIL lied and said, "just once." Why lie? Really? Mom and I both remember the gashes in Michael's face on more than one occasion. Ah well.
> 
> Lisa put the kids to bed at 8 without any bites, and then broke her head open and had to go to the ER and so I ended up sticking around until 2AM and didn't get to shoot my gun off.
> 
> But the next morning. Tiger bit Gwen in the ear. Who do you blame? The dog? He was 12 or 13 years old, and wasn't good with kids. The dog's owners? They were obviously in denial about their dog. The kid's parents? They could have been a lot more careful seeing their kid pestering and elderly dog and knowing it was capable of biting.
> 
> Insanity. My sister WANTS her kids to be afraid of dogs. She told me that. This is my little sister, not the sister that lets me have her kids around all my dogs. Ah well, family. I can only say that if one of my dogs knocks one of her kids down or scratches them with a toenail, I will never hear the end of it. But my brother's dog can bite her kid.


 this was the story I was referring to. Not the pencil ear dog as much although in both instances I blame the parents. If the dog bit the 10 year old girl I wouldn't blame the dog because he was being taken out and kicked. As far as the name issue, I think it's the first time I've done that because I've been fighting autocorrect every time I type your name.


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## selzer

The pencil in the ear thing, I just don't have any burning desire to blame anybody. I don't blame the dog for biting out of pain. 

Sometimes there are accidents that happen that really aren't anyone's fault. The need to place blame is often connected to our need to be in control -- that won't happen to me, because I would never... Whatever. I think people who have never had kids really don't know, often they are guilty of saying things like, "my kids would never..." And people whose kids are raised, they forget a lot of the day to day stuff.


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## cliffson1

We all know that German Shepherds are governed primarily by rational human intelligence and not by drives or instincts. That's why they should NEVER be aggressive, they know the law. If they do, they have faulty temperament not adequate to be their primary duty....a pet. Furthermore, if a German Shepherd is not able to tolerate any foolish behavior by humans, they should know they were created to be submissive in all situations as defined by all society. 
THIS is why this is the best pet in the world....the new German Shepherd.
After all, they clearly know they are traumatizing a kid if they even accidentally knock one down or nip them in response to ANY behaviors by a child. There is NO excuse for these dogs not to be polite in all situations....none!


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## thegooseman90

selzer said:


> The pencil in the ear thing, I just don't have any burning desire to blame anybody. I don't blame the dog for biting out of pain.
> 
> Sometimes there are accidents that happen that really aren't anyone's fault. The need to place blame is often connected to our need to be in control -- that won't happen to me, because I would never... Whatever. I think people who have never had kids really don't know, often they are guilty of saying things like, "my kids would never..." And people whose kids are raised, they forget a lot of the day to day stuff.


 haha that's a good point about the kids. I used to say the same thing before mine came along. Now I just hope that whatever nonsense they pull is manageable. I guess all in all I just have a different outlook on things because my experience is with a different brand of working dog. They were outside dogs unless they were healing up. And at certain times I could forgive bites from those dogs because they were amped up and mistakes happen or they were possibly confused about what was causing them pain and lashed out at the wrong person(me). But NEVER would I accept a bite to a kid or anyone else for that matter for a tail being stepped on or hair being tugged rough pets etc. and none of the dogs I ever owned ever showed any desire to do so. They were very tolerant of almost anything and if they had enough of it they got up and walked off.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> We all know that German Shepherds are governed primarily by rational human intelligence and not by drives or instincts. That's why they should NEVER be aggressive, they know the law. If they do, they have faulty temperament not adequate to be their primary duty....a pet. Furthermore, if a German Shepherd is not able to tolerate any foolish behavior by humans, they should know they were created to be submissive in all situations as defined by all society.
> THIS is why this is the best pet in the world....the new German Shepherd.
> After all, they clearly know they are traumatizing a kid if they even accidentally knock one down or nip them in response to ANY behaviors by a child. There is NO excuse for these dogs not to be polite in all situations....none!


:grin2:


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## Jenny720

You have great advise here. Just going to add put Archer away even when just your brother comes over to visit. Your brothers nervous and angry energy can be picked up by Archer and even innocent behavior can be misinterpreted by your brother. I'm glad your niece is okay. It was a heads up for you is all. I was bit on the butt by a neighbors Gsd riding my bike as a kid and still German shepherds are my favorite breed- just saying it is an incident everyone can recover from and you now know supervision is a must.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> There was a ten year old girl, whose parents got a puppy and she was given some of the responsibilities with the puppy. After a while the parents noticed the puppy didn't want to go near the girl. They would tell the girl to take the puppy out. And the girl would be angry for having to leave the television because of the puppy, and when she got the puppy outside, she would kick it.
> 
> The parents actually witnessed the abuse and the dog turn and bite the girl. And when the girl came in with a bite wound they punished her for doing what she did to the dog. I don't know if they ended up re-homing the dog or not. Children are more important than dogs, but they are not always right. And it is not always right to kill a dog for what happens. There can be extenuating circumstances.


That's awful.

I'd honestly have a hard time looking at my child again for awhile. Honestly. I'm not saying I wouldn't, or that I wouldn't prioritize her above the puppy, but it would be grudging in some respects. I mean, wow. I'd just have tough time reconciling that. And I'd be wondering where I went wrong as a parent and a whole slew of other things. How awful for the parents who had some tough choices to make.


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## Dotbat215

WateryTart said:


> That's awful.
> 
> I'd honestly have a hard time looking at my child again for awhile. Honestly. I'm not saying I wouldn't, or that I wouldn't prioritize her above the puppy, but it would be grudging in some respects. I mean, wow. I'd just have tough time reconciling that. And I'd be wondering where I went wrong as a parent and a whole slew of other things. How awful for the parents who had some tough choices to make.


I'd rehome the pup and the TV. I would also consider some sort of counseling for the child. It's one thing to be frustrated with the dog. Kids are immature and lack the impulse control that an adult has...but consistent physical abuse of an animal is worrisome IMHO.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Do kids often kick or hit animals without first seeing adults do it? Maybe they do, I'm honestly not sure.

My step kids were not little when I adopted them and despite some of the other problems, they loved the dogs very much and neither would have ever been cruel to one in a million years.


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## WateryTart

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Do kids often kick or hit animals without first seeing adults do it? Maybe they do, I'm honestly not sure.
> 
> My step kids were not little when I adopted them and despite some of the other problems, they loved the dogs very much and neither would have ever been cruel to one in a million years.


No idea. I just can't imagine it - it sounds so out of normal to me. We loved our pets as children. I think my one brother (4yo at the time) made some questionable decisions about how he played with his gerbil (gerbils do not like to be moved in jumping-jack motions for "daily exercise"), but he would never have been purposely mean to the animal. When our little dog came along, she was our constant companion: Yard, park, walks, everywhere she could go. I don't think any of us would have dreamed of hitting or kicking her.

Our parents were always calm and level with us and with pets, though, so maybe that's part of it.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Yeah I totally used to take my pet goldfish out of the water and pet it, and then put it back...and the thing lived for EVER.

But it seems like a difference between stupid things kids do, thinking they are being nice (like hugging a dog), (petting a goldfish LOL). And kicking a dog?

I don't know. Kids are not my specialty at all.


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## Jenny720

I truly can't think there is an age limit for anyone to cause intentional harm to an animal and no it is not normal but a sign that there is something seriously going on in that kids life. It's never okay to harm an animal and often It is possible the term "just experimenting" gets used to loosely by parents and no real issues get addressed. A kid kicking a pup repeatedly falls into that category of there are some serious issues not getting addressed.


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## alexg

I think the owner is a 'she' and long gone after posting her OP.


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## cdwoodcox

thegooseman90 said:


> In seltzers example of the pencil I blame that 100% on the parents. No way a 3 year old should be left alone with a living creature like that for both the dogs safety and the kids safety. A 3 year old knows some right from wrong but doesn't grasp the entirety of their decisions. She probably thought it was funny and didn't understand that it was hurting the dog. My oldest used to do similar stuff to me when she was little. And she thought it was funny to try and poke my eyes and would laugh and make a game of me closing my eyes and turning my head away. That's why there I blame the kids parents for leaving the kid unattended like that. In the other example that's 95% the kids fault because she was 10 years old and knew what she was doing and 5% the parents fault for allowing it. And if that was my kid I would correct her just as sternly as the dog that nipped.



My kids would have gotten a spanking at three years old if they were trying to poke me or anyone else in the eyes. Not a game we played in my house. As far as the ten year old she would have thought her world was ending. Being a kid doesn't mean you can be taught swiftly that certain things aren't tolerated.


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## cdwoodcox

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yeah I totally used to take my pet goldfish out of the water and pet it, and then put it back...and the thing lived for EVER.
> 
> But it seems like a difference between stupid things kids do, thinking they are being nice (like hugging a dog), (petting a goldfish LOL). And kicking a dog?
> 
> I don't know. Kids are not my specialty at all.


 I don't think the kids have to witness abuse to act like that. I think the parents have just raised a selfish spoiled little brat. No different than a kid who bullies other kids. I think it definitely should have made the parents rethink their parenting style.


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## selzer

I don't think kids have to witness a dog being kicked to kick a dog. I too think it is tantrum-like behavior of a spoiled kid. The kid is angry and vents her anger on a weak, defenseless creature.


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## thegooseman90

cdwoodcox said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In seltzers example of the pencil I blame that 100% on the parents. No way a 3 year old should be left alone with a living creature like that for both the dogs safety and the kids safety. A 3 year old knows some right from wrong but doesn't grasp the entirety of their decisions. She probably thought it was funny and didn't understand that it was hurting the dog. My oldest used to do similar stuff to me when she was little. And she thought it was funny to try and poke my eyes and would laugh and make a game of me closing my eyes and turning my head away. That's why there I blame the kids parents for leaving the kid unattended like that. In the other example that's 95% the kids fault because she was 10 years old and knew what she was doing and 5% the parents fault for allowing it. And if that was my kid I would correct her just as sternly as the dog that nipped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My kids would have gotten a spanking at three years old if they were trying to poke me or anyone else in the eyes. Not a game we played in my house. As far as the ten year old she would have thought her world was ending. Being a kid doesn't mean you can be taught swiftly that certain things aren't tolerated.
Click to expand...

 nothing like a good ole beat down to teach a 3 year old a harmless game isn't tolerated haha I wasn't so old and febile that it was hurting anything. But if I ever get to the point that a 3 year old trying to touch my eye is a danger to me I have a feeling I'll be SOL anyway. As for the 10 year old I can agree with your sentiment, seeing as how I basically said the exact same thing at the end of my reply you quoted.


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## cdwoodcox

Well goose a three yr old trying to touch an eye isn't nearly the same thing as a three year old trying to poke in the eyes. As far as beating down a 3 yr old. No need. They are pretty handler sensitive. Just a little tap on the butt and no does the trick. 
Yes you did day that you would correct the ten yr old just as sternly as the dog that nipped. Where we differ on that is that I would not have corrected the dog in that instance. First unless you was right there and able to administer a correction immediately then the dog would just think you were abusing it also. And if you were right there that close then the dog probably wouldn't have had to bite the kid.
I don't totally agree with the 100% no bite policy. I have more of a 100% non-aggressive bite approach. Sometimes owning a dog you may get bit. Part of the territory. I have bite marks all over from training my dogs. They miss a toy during drive build or just unload and redirect to me. My wife has gotten bit by her toy poodle. Trim a nail too short dog is in pain instinctively bites. And yep even kids can get bit by a dog non-aggressively. Kid learns a lesson problem solved.


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## selzer

If you give your three year old a tap on the butt and a No! for the right thing with the understanding that spanking is a very bad thing that you don't want to happen ever, then you rarely have to brandish the rod at age 10. If you wait until a kid is 10 or 12 to finally lay down the law, than spanking has to be a lot more violent if you go that route to get your point across. For some reason the remembrance of spanking being something to avoid at all costs speaks louder than an actual spanking. The thing about spanking is that if it is done right, and not very often, it is far more effective and humane than a lot of other punishments. 10-12 year olds figure out on their own that you aren't going to kill them, really, and while unpleasant, some things may definitely be worth it. 

As for the eye-poking game. Yeah, the way that was first portrayed, I wouldn't have tolerated that either. One day when my sister's kids were between 5 and 7, not sure. She was coming home from Palm Sunday services, and her daughter, in her booster seat in the back (yeah they were little even at 7), waved her palm hitting my sister with it in her eye. She swerved and took out a mailbox, a few streets from her home. 

My sister offered to pay for the mailbox, but did not have her id or checkbook with her -- in her dress clothes and she never did carry a purse. Anyway, they just had to call the police, so my sister went to court and got out of the ticket that the officer just had to give her by explaining what happened to the judge. 

Even so, teaching kids to be careful from an early age is not something we just do because it is an opportunity to bully children. It can be dangerous to the child and others. And, since I really don't like getting anything in my eyes, that wouldn't go over.


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## thegooseman90

Ya know I'm not gonna assume too much here but I'll speak for myself. At no point was a 3 year old trying to touch or poke - whichever word you prefer - detrimental to my health. I'd hate to see a grown man that was in imminent dange from a 3 year old goofing around. 

But on a more serious note - WTF?!?! unless you guys read "How to discipline your child: an in depth manual by Mike Tyson" the kid isn't gonna remember a small pop and a big no 7 years later. Maybe it's been forever since you've had kids that age and don't really remember what it was like. Maybe you were from an era were Ray Rice would be right at home. But if your parenting skills would get you an invite to the ike turner classics that's none of my business, I just don't see it as necessary with a 3 year old goofing around in a way that isn't dangerous to itself or anyone else.


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## Dracovich

Dogs are not humans and their social behavior is completely different. Dogs bite dogs, even their own offspring and it means little to them and it certainly does not effect future interactions. Most of my dogs have gotten into a fight at least once, they learn from the experience and are buddies after that.

Dogs are animals and animals bite, especially predatory animals. The physical interaction was unacceptable and completely preventable, especially considering the age of the child. When I was a child a dog bit my face because I leaned over it and tried to kiss it on the head, which is seen as threatening to a dog that doesn't know you. Hovering over dogs is a bad idea if you don't know the dog, and kids especially stress dogs out. The only acceptable physical contact between a child and a dog is regular petting. If you don't teach kids how to properly interact with your dog, he will try to teach them, and a dogs method is biting, especially when his warning bark was not heeded.

Also, you have to remember that these are strong dogs, if your dog really wanted to hurt your niece he could have done a lot more damage. It was not malicious.


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## Jenny720

With three years old kids there is no rhyme or reason to their actions they are learning about their free will consequences, cause and effect exploring all that good stuff. They require patience and much repetition of rules and guidance. Any 10 year old who repeatedly kicks a pup there is more then a tantrum that lurks behind that anger -counseling is a must.


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## gracieg555

Slamdunc said:


> This dog needed to be corrected immediately and strongly. A very harsh correction is in order for biting a child. Slapping or hitting the dog is inappropriate and wrong. But, make no mistake, a dog should be sternly corrected for unprovoked aggression and biting someone, especially a child.
> 
> I don n to believe in not correcting a dog for growling or thinking the dog will just bite the next time. If a dog growls it is a warning, biting comes next. I do not allow my dogs to growl at anyone unprovoked. They will be corrected for any signs of inappropriate aggression and they will remember the correction for the behavior. A dog that bites a child or anyone else unprovoked needs to be corrected in a way that it clearly understands to NEVER do that again.
> 
> Make no mistake, this dog is not handled properly and is aggressive. This dog will get worse with out proper training, handling and socialization. Part of the problem is thinking that this dog may not be aggressive, that is wrong. This dog clearly can be aggressive and not addressing this is going to make it worse.


How do you punish your dog? I don't condone ever hitting a dog, I thinks it's wrong. It's not the dog's fault for being put in that situation in the first place. But I am curious to know how you'd handle it. I've got a new GSP 8 week old puppy and I'm just trying to learn everything I can.


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## cdwoodcox

thegooseman90 said:


> Ya know I'm not gonna assume too much here but I'll speak for myself. At no point was a 3 year old trying to touch or poke - whichever word you prefer - detrimental to my health. I'd hate to see a grown man that was in imminent dange from a 3 year old goofing around.
> 
> But on a more serious note - WTF?!?! unless you guys read "How to discipline your child: an in depth manual by Mike Tyson" the kid isn't gonna remember a small pop and a big no 7 years later. Maybe it's been forever since you've had kids that age and don't really remember what it was like. Maybe you were from an era were Ray Rice would be right at home. But if your parenting skills would get you an invite to the ike turner classics that's none of my business, I just don't see it as necessary with a 3 year old goofing around in a way that isn't dangerous to itself or anyone else.


 LMAO at the Mike Tyson parenting book. You are the one who put the image in my mind of a three yr old sitting on your lap being a brat trying to intentionally poke you in the eye. While you used the same approach I have seen used for puppies who bite. Turn away and make a loud I am in pain sound. Did I think you were in imminent danger from it not really. But if left as being OK maybe another kid or animal would have been. 
Now a child trying to touch your eye that brings a warm child smiling feeling daddies face playful image. That is why I said two different things. As far as the child remembering getting a spanken at 10. Probably not but just like puppies and imprinting it works. And once again no one said to beat a three yr old. A tap and no is part of the imprinting. 

Anyway goose I feel like we are disagreeing way too much on here when we probably have more in common than not. "except for going all savage on a 3 yr old lol". I am sure you are an excellent parent, pet owner, and human being. Peace out.


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## thegooseman90

cdwoodcox said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know I'm not gonna assume too much here but I'll speak for myself. At no point was a 3 year old trying to touch or poke - whichever word you prefer - detrimental to my health. I'd hate to see a grown man that was in imminent dange from a 3 year old goofing around.
> 
> But on a more serious note - WTF?!?! unless you guys read "How to discipline your child: an in depth manual by Mike Tyson" the kid isn't gonna remember a small pop and a big no 7 years later. Maybe it's been forever since you've had kids that age and don't really remember what it was like. Maybe you were from an era were Ray Rice would be right at home. But if your parenting skills would get you an invite to the ike turner classics that's none of my business, I just don't see it as necessary with a 3 year old goofing around in a way that isn't dangerous to itself or anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO at the Mike Tyson parenting book. You are the one who put the image in my mind of a three yr old sitting on your lap being a brat trying to intentionally poke you in the eye. While you used the same approach I have seen used for puppies who bite. Turn away and make a loud I am in pain sound. Did I think you were in imminent danger from it not really. But if left as being OK maybe another kid or animal would have been.
> Now a child trying to touch your eye that brings a warm child smiling feeling daddies face playful image. That is why I said two different things. As far as the child remembering getting a spanken at 10. Probably not but just like puppies and imprinting it works. And once again no one said to beat a three yr old. A tap and no is part of the imprinting.
> 
> Anyway goose I feel like we are disagreeing way too much on here when we probably have more in common than not. "except for going all savage on a 3 yr old lol". I am sure you are an excellent parent, pet owner, and human being. Peace out.
Click to expand...

 haha it's just my personality to make jokes of things. No in all honesty I think I probably described it poorly the first time around. The second image you had of the playing and warm fuzzy feeling was how our play time went. To be honest this thread was so far off topic at this point anyway that we're better to agree to disagree anyhow. No hard feelings and hopefully I didn't offend anyone!


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## Slamdunc

gracieg555 said:


> How do you punish your dog? I don't condone ever hitting a dog, I thinks it's wrong. It's not the dog's fault for being put in that situation in the first place. But I am curious to know how you'd handle it. I've got a new GSP 8 week old puppy and I'm just trying to learn everything I can.


I really do not "punish" my dogs. I will correct a dog for disobedience. I will use a verbal correction, leash and collar or perhaps withholding a reward. The vast majority of the time I spend with my dogs and training dogs is setting up the dog for success. I break every exercise down into it's most fundamental components and train that first. Then I put it together. Dogs learn through repetition and behaviors that are reinforced are likely to recur. 

I have 3 dogs here and they all have different temperaments and levels of hardness and aggression. What might be a hard correction for one dog will be entirely ineffective and meaningless for another dog. The softest dog I have could care less about verbal corrections while the most reactive and a very hard dog is very responsive to my voice. It is hard to give advice on correcting a dog with out knowing the dog. 

I will say that a good correction should instantly stop the unwanted behavior and cause the dog to remember it for quite a while. Dogs live in the moment and I rarely get "mad" or upset at my dogs. Even the one that comes up the leash occasionally. Once it's over it's over. I don't hold a grudge, get mad or react out of frustration or anger. I am like a benevolent dictator. When the dog is performing properly life is great, really great. When the dog disobeys a command that it has been taught, it will be corrected for that disobedience. Everything is very black and white with me and dogs. There are no grey areas and I am extremely consistent in what I do. I give my dogs about 1 1/2 - 2 seconds to respond to a command. After 2 seconds if the dog is not in motion to do the command, then I will make the dog perform the command. I don't repeat commands, I rarely raise my voice or yell, I simply make them do it. Once they preformed the behavior I want they will get praised and / or rewarded. Making the dog perform the behavior could be as simple as a negative marker, a change in breathing, a look, a touch or a leash correction. Though, it doesn't always have to be physical. 

I really find little reason to "punish" or correct an 8 week old puppy. I spend so much time teaching the puppy how to behave properly and how to get rewards that there is very little poor behavior. I supervise my puppies at all times when they are loose in the house. If they get into something than I wasn't watching close enough and that is my fault. 

I hope that makes sense and best of luck with your pup.

Jim


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