# Lunged at trainer



## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

So about 2-3 weeks ago I met with a trainer that I loved to help me with my fear aggressive ~5 year old, Jager. He was bit by a littermate last year and has both dog and stranger aggression. Loved the trainer and she seemed really promising, signed him up to a 6-week class to help get him around other dogs in a controlled environment.

I was under the impression that the lady I originally met with would be leading the class, and turns out she's not. When we had our first class, he started off really bad in the parking lot each time a new dog would come about but we finally got him in the facility and he calmed eventually and did REALLY fantastic, even calmly being within 8 ft. or so of another dog, even when the dog would walk back and forth to the middle of the room. I was really impressed with him!

The problem came in with him reacting towards the trainer. She first asked me if he would be okay if she approached me to hand a brochure, and he did fine. Later on, the second time she approached me, he lunged and growled/barked like crazy at her :-(

I got him under control, stood in between him and the "threat" (the trainer), told him firmly to sit and quiet (he knows both very well, proofed in distractions). He is wearing a prong during all of this. This was everything the first instructor informed me to do. 

The trainer seemed (understandably) pretty shaken. She asked "is that what she (first trainer) told you to do?" (In regards to getting him under control)

I don't blame her for her reaction but I am pretty disappointed. With the first trainer, when he displayed this behavior she remained confident and in control and walked me through what to do and assisted. I don't feel like this new trainer is going to do anything else besides put us through the motions of the class, all basic obedience he knows well, and isn't going to help in terms of the issue of why were there in the first place. 

Does anyone have any additional tips for me that I can use and practice throughout the next 5 weeks of class?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe hiring a private trainer before putting him in a class? He may not be ready for a group class and it doesn't sound that the trainer is confident in having him there either.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

are group classes appropriate for him at this time? I would do some private training with the initial trainer you thought would be teaching the class....the book control unleashed CONTROL UNLEASHED - CREATING A FOCUSED AND CONFIDENT DOG - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com
has many exercises to help you and your dog.

Maybe the trainer is familiar with it and can get a small class together based on the book. Regular pet obedience class won't help you progress as much as a class based on the CU exercises.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Find a different trainer. One that can help you with a dog like that will not be intimidated by it, and can take the leash from you without issues.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Find a different trainer. One that can help you with a dog like that will not be intimidated by it, and can take the leash from you without issues.


This^^^


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Find a different trainer. One that can help you with a dog like that will not be intimidated by it, and can take the leash from you without issues.


SECOND. If the trainer can't even be confident around your dog, she can't help you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Most likely "that" trainer was "positive" only or had never seen a red zone dog before??
Those dogs are a real eye opener! You can take your "clicker and bag o treats" and put them where the sun don't shine...good times, good times!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Most likely "that" trainer was "positive" only or had never seen a red zone dog before??
> Those dogs are a real eye opener! You can take your "clicker and bag o treats" and put them where the sun don't shine...good times, good times!


There are positive trainers who are excellent, and positive trainers that are crappy. There are trainers who use corrections that are good, and trainers that use corrections that are crappy. I don't understand why everything is an invitation to bash positive training. 

If the lady who interviewed her initially told her to use a prong in a certain way, I highly doubt the class she placed her in would be with a positive-mostly trainer. Sorry, but usually the people who are very positive probably wouldn't be working hand in hand with someone who is encouraging a prong during an initial interview. Usually.

But, it is always open season on the positive people -- they have never seen a red-zone dog. Whatever. There are a lot of people who train with prongs who have never seen one, and if they just slam a prong on a red zone dog and yank away, sooner or later it will be ugly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> they have never seen a red-zone dog. Whatever. There are a lot of people who train with prongs who have never seen one, and if they just slam a prong on a red zone dog and yank away, sooner or later it will be ugly.


Geez I stepped on toes?? 

Sorry and yes you are correct! I have been "lucky??" to have had one myself! And yeah crank and crank would most likely get you to "up leash dog!"

Still "this" trainer and "this" dog does not seem like a good match! It would not inspire confidence in me, if I hired a trainer and my dog scared the crap out of them..."what do I need you for, would be my next question???"


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Most likely "that" trainer was "positive" only or had never seen a red zone dog before??
> Those dogs are a real eye opener! You can take your "clicker and bag o treats" and put them where the sun don't shine...good times, good times!


I don't understand either why it has to be "positive" trainer vs others. Just like selzer said, there are positive trainers that can handle an aggressive dog and there are ones that suck. Same with trainers that use any other method. Helping an aggressive dog is not about using positive vs prong. It's about finding a trainer who can handle the dog and figure out a method of training it that helps. 

Heck, one of my first dogs was a Rottie that put someone in the hospital. I rehabilitated him as a so-called "positive" trainer. But I guess I still don't know what a "red zone" dog is?  It's typically not about the method, it's about the trainer. You can come at the dog with most any method, but if you don't know how to apply the method correctly, read the behavior, and adjust the training to the individual in a safe, effective way then you can't do jack for the dog.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I would question too if he's ready for a group class.. 

Does this place offer private lessons.. That way the trainer can work one on one with you and the dog.. Then gradually bring in a couple safe dogs/people for you to work around after a couple of sessions..


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

I am not understanding though, so you paid to have your dog trained by one trainer, and the day of class they pull the 'ol switcharoo on you and put you with a trainer you don't know from Adam? Shouldn't you be able to get your money back, I mean can they even do this? This is false advertising. Come train with trainer A!! But we will give you trainer B! When you least expect it of course... Yeah I would see if I can get a refund because you are not getting what you paid for.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Another vote for a private class AND a confident trainer. This trainer is not confident and your dog will take advantage of that.

As for the type trainer - locate an experienced trainer that YOU are comfortable with. Ultimately, they will be training you to handle your dog. 

For the type training -- discuss the trainer's methods with them then do your research on the methods. The trainer's tool bag should be a large indepth one so that they are able to modify what they are doing to work with your dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> I don't understand either why it has to be "positive" trainer vs others. Just like selzer said, there are positive trainers that can handle an aggressive dog and there are ones that suck. Same with trainers that use any other method. Helping an aggressive dog is not about using positive vs prong. It's about finding a trainer who can handle the dog and figure out a method of training it that helps.
> 
> Heck, one of my first dogs was a Rottie that put someone in the hospital. I rehabilitated him as a so-called "positive" trainer. But I guess I still don't know what a "red zone" dog is?  It's typically not about the method, it's about the trainer. You can come at the dog with most any method, but if you don't know how to apply the method correctly, read the behavior, and adjust the training to the individual in a safe, effective way then you can't do jack for the dog.


Geez I get it already...poor choice of words on my part.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I am not understanding though, so you paid to have your dog trained by one trainer, and the day of class they pull the 'ol switcharoo on you and put you with a trainer you don't know from Adam? Shouldn't you be able to get your money back, I mean can they even do this? This is false advertising. Come train with trainer A!! But we will give you trainer B! When you least expect it of course... Yeah I would see if I can get a refund because you are not getting what you paid for.


There are many training facilities that utilize many different trainers. You'd need to specify in the beginning that you are interested in training under a certain trainer and not just interested in classes.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> There are many training facilities that utilize many different trainers. You'd need to specify in the beginning that you are interested in training under a certain trainer and not just interested in classes.


This is true.. 

We have multiple trainers. And not all will teach/do private lessons. Some teach more specialized classes, some just the basic stuff, etc...


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Our pup took to one-on-one so much better than group training at our GSD Training Center (even though he has been socialized with other dogs since early months)...maybe he was inmature, unmotivated or needed to be at home to train; either way, he has excelled and definately listens better. 

When we were in class and he was behaving, we attributed it to a higher valued treat that we used. It was a class of 12 and a bit overwhelming for _our_ 4-month old. 

We were first recommended a trainer that lectured us about history of GSD, how they need to be controlled, and how aggressive they can become, with no hands on training with the dog (didn't once pet Leo or interact with him). We were like, this can't be it as trainers go!?! She only "trained" once. 

Then we found our "Leanne". The clouds seperated and the sun shined down that afternoon!! Ahhhh <---angels singing> One tip that I have lived by since we got Leo is you need to trust your trainer. We love her approach and can adapt what we learn from her in everyday training and life. 

If you like your original trainer, you may want to ask her for 1 on 1 training (which may be a bit more $$$, but may only take a small number of sessions). We meet our trainer (over the winter, slowed down) 2x a month for refresher and if any problems arise.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i agre with selzer a real red zone dog, I know a dog that will nail you hard if you use a prong on hiim but he responds great to positive training.

HE started biting in the first place the first owner used a prong on him and he nailed them hard. TO me a real red zone dog is a dangerous dog and you dont use a prong on one if you dont know them.JMHO or without a muzzle. I don't consider it fear aggression though.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in response. I started a new position on this past Wednesday, and it's been challenging getting in any free time to respond especially when I'm mostly on a mobile device. I'm going to try and reply to everyone. 

A little update before I start replying. We had another class today, they are every Monday. The original trainer approached me before the classes and said she didn't think Jager was progressing as nicely as she hoped and recommended a gentle leader head collar and let me borrow one for the class. I wasn't comfortable with the collar to begin with, but I went with her recommendation and figured it couldn't hurt to try for a session to see if it would work. He was a disaster. He just completely shut down and had a horrible time, and was stressed through the roof. He has actually been doing really well in the classes with minimal lunging/reactivity, only becoming reactive if another high energy dog gets very close to him. He's been really well if a calm, well behaved dog is within his vicinity. I think to that extent, the classes are a great thing to have him in. I'm starting to question the approach though, as any time the perceived threat gets close to him, not only is he afraid and stressed about that, but he's getting a correction. I feel it's only reinforcing his aggression. People or dogs come near, he reacts. He's only getting a correction when he doesn't obey or lunges and corrects himself, but I feel it can't be good that he has a negative view of these things and is getting a negative physical reaction when they come closer (even if it's from his own doing, he is a dog and can't understand why the prong is closing, only that it is). I will finish out the classes, as I think he's doing wonderful in behaving calmly in our little designated corner and it's of benefit to him to be exposed to other dogs, but I have contacted a local schutzhund group in hopes of finding a trainer who is familiar with the breed and more equipped to handle his issues. I know this is a common issue with GSDs, and while it may be a difficult one to work through I want to put in the effort and I'm sure I can find a trainer who is more experienced with this particular type of situation. 





wolfy dog said:


> Maybe hiring a private trainer before putting him in a class? He may not be ready for a group class and it doesn't sound that the trainer is confident in having him there either.


The trainer was the one in the first place who recommended the group classes. She felt it was the best way to get him in front of strange dogs in a controlled environment. Of course at the time I was under the assumption she would be leading the class. 



onyx'girl said:


> are group classes appropriate for him at this time? I would do some private training with the initial trainer you thought would be teaching the class....


I did try one private trainer with him so far which didn't work out. I asked the trainer specifically if she thought he would benefit from private lessons opposed to the group. She told me no as of last week...I am hoping to find a trainer who has specifically worked with GSDs to help me. It seems his issues are heightened around me, opposed to my husband when he handles him. He seems to be more relaxed and less in a protective/aggressive state away from me. 



Chip18 said:


> Most likely "that" trainer was "positive" only or had never seen a red zone dog before??
> Those dogs are a real eye opener! You can take your "clicker and bag o treats" and put them where the sun don't shine...good times, good times!


Strangely enough, she is not a completely +R trainer and believes a lot in corrective training too. She just doesn't seem to have any experience with actual aggression. Maybe leash reactivity but not fear aggression. 



I'm going to skip over all of the comments involving positive reinforcement vs. other trainers.......I personally believe in a balanced training method.....I think positive reinforcement is GREAT but that corrections absolutely have their place in training. 





G-burg said:


> I would question too if he's ready for a group class..
> 
> Does this place offer private lessons.. That way the trainer can work one on one with you and the dog.. Then gradually bring in a couple safe dogs/people for you to work around after a couple of sessions..


She does offer private lessons but I'm beginning to wonder now if she is the right trainer for him period. She is an excellent trainer and I value her opinion greatly, I just don't know that she is the right trainer for him specifically. I am going to try and work with a local schutzhund group to find a trainer who is specifically versed and geared towards working with GSDs. I think that could hopefully make a big difference.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Also, I'm not sure IMO if my dog would be considered a red zone dog. I know for a fact that he can be calmly introduced to strangers if they act appropriately. I've had several friends, even ones who are not dog-savvy, be introduced to him just fine. He does an initial barking/lunging phase, and as long as the person feeds him he is sitting in their lap licking their face the next moment. The same can be said about introducing strange dogs, as long as they do not react to him reacting I have successfully introduced him to another dog he didn't previously know. 

The problem isn't with people/dogs in my life I know and trust, it's with walking him down the street to the people/dogs who aren't willing (and I don't necessarily want) walking up to him and introducing themselves. I know my dog enough to know he isn't going to turn on me, and I do trust him (albeit with EXTREME precaution, with extreme care and only under supervised and careful measures, with clear instructions and only to people who I trust 120% to follow my exact instructions) to not bite the guests who I allow into my house. 

So red zone dog, not so much --- I don't consider him a bite risk, and I highly doubt he would go for a person who did not pose a real and immediate threat. Even if they didn't have food, didn't follow my instructions, and just flat out approached I don't really believe he would bite. I just of course don't want to chance his life on that, and I want my old dog back.

I don't expect him to fully recover 100% to the off leash beach/camping/hiking dog he once was, but I don't want him cooped up in the house his whole life. It's so heartbreaking when we go on outings, and our other two dogs come with us. He's a lot more bonded to me than the other dogs are, and I can literally see it just tearing him apart that he has to be left at home. But it's not like I can take him to crowded areas where the other two join us...I don't see that ever happening again but I'm going to try. 

This is trainer #3 for us so far but I haven't given up hope. Maybe fourth time will be a charm.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A head halter??? I'd have cussed them out and walked!

So far you seem to have really crappy luck with trainers? This might serve you better:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Who Pets my Puppy or Dog you basically ignore people and move on you keep people and dogs out of your dogs space.

Same approach is also in the fearful dog blog link.

My guy was a Red Zone dog and he made it crystal clear that he was not a big fan of company or strangers. So "who Pets it was" we walked many miles together, I intercepted anyone that tried to get close to him if we were standing still. His place was behind me when I spoke to someone, after a while he learned that was his place.

Finally a day came when I was "forced" into an encounter... GSD guy! He wanted to meet Rocky. I did my usual step in front of Rocky. He asked to pet Rocky, I looked at Rocky and by now I knew what Rocky looked like when he was not under "stress" he looked fine..."been there done this" was the look he had. 

I stepped aside and let him pet Rocky. Zero reaction from Rocky he was fine with it...he did not really care, but good enough, my job was done! 

Don't know if this is what you need but it's how I will "socialize" all my dogs going forward. A more people "neutral" Boxer is my goal. 

Anyway thought it might be helpful.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> A head halter??? I'd have cussed them out and walked!
> 
> So far you seem to have really crappy luck with trainers? This might serve you better:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> ...



Yeah, that was my first thought — I've never been a fan of them, but to be fair I also hadn't tried one so I figured him having it on for 45 minutes was worth a shot. It just confirmed all my beliefs. He was just miserable and shut down the whole time. She told me he was only shut down because "now I was in control," but I respectfully disagree. I have full control over him in a prong collar and even on a martingale I can handle him. Shutting down might be okay for a boisterous, confident pit or lab or other type but not for a dog who is acting out of fear. 

And yes, I've definitely had really bad luck with trainers. The first trainer told me to just avoid everything. She said if you see a dog, turn the other way. I played devils advocate and said okay, what happens if I turn around and there's another dog heading towards us and no matter what way I turn, he's going to have to see a dog? She couldn't answer so I fired her. 

The second one was a $200/hr. private trainer who literally just told me to train, exercise and mentally stimulate him. No duh lady. She would have been a great trainer for a first time dog owner but this isn't my first rodeo and my issues aren't simple house manners. She also wanted me to walk him in basically a full on, attention on me heel for entire walks. It's not reasonable to me to ask any dog to do that for 1-3+ miles. When there isn't a dog around, he's loose leash trained even on a flat collar and I think it's silly to prohibit him from smelling anything as long as he's not slowing me down or pulling me anywhere. He's a dog, not an object, and if he's not enjoying the walk I'm not going to either. She was supposed to bring her dog to practice with but never did. 

All three trainers I've had have been made fully aware of every detail of him, the extent of his issues and what I want to accomplish beforehand.

It's getting very expensive and very frustrating. 

I will look into that thread you posted. Also the book someone else recommended earlier.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I think your idea of consulting with your local schtzhund group to find a trainer that specifically knows and understands GSDs is the best idea yet.

And I agree. that could make all the difference for you and your dog. That way you will have a trainer that is specifically dedicated to the breed and to your success as a handler and owner of a GSD.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

putting a GL on the dog without doing some desensitizing to it first was not fair to the dog. 
If there is an IPO club fairly local to you, it would be definitely be worth going without your dog and make some contacts for trainers.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jsca said:


> *She also wanted me to walk him in basically a full on, attention on me heel for entire walks.* It's not reasonable to me to ask any dog to do that for 1-3+ miles. When there isn't a dog around, he's loose leash trained even on a flat collar and I think it's silly to prohibit him from smelling anything as long as he's not slowing me down or pulling me anywhere. He's a dog, not an object, and if he's not enjoying the walk I'm not going to either.


That is totally unrealistic! Even the people who post videos of their dogs training for or competing in IPO, where you need a nice attention heel, don't take their dogs out for a several mile walk and expect that type of perfection the entire time. I think it would be much more productive to come up with some criteria for a loose leash walk, reinforce that consistently for your walks, and mix in short periods of attention heeling, as well as some sits and downs or other OB skills so it's a training walk, but still fun. 

You can also release him and use some sort of cue if you want to let him know he can sniff around for a bit, and then call him back to you to continue your walk. I use "go sniff", and when I'm ready to go I say "let's go", which is my LLW cue. I almost never use a heel command, and really don't require that my dogs remain in perfect heel position hardly ever, since all of our walks are at least 3 miles, and sometimes up to 8 miles. But my LLW criteria are clearly defined and consistently reinforced, it just doesn't include constant attention.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> putting a GL on the dog without doing some desensitizing to it first was not fair to the dog.


Oh is it open season on "walk your dog gizmo's??" I got my two cents ready!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jsca honestly your only "real" problem seems to be your "underestimating" yourself!

You seem to think well, I'm not a pro so the "experts" must know more than "I" do??

And yep if you want IPO level stuff they do! But you seem to be a "pet person" as am I and for that level, you've "proven" that you know at least as much and in several cases "more" than the people you're "hiring!"

Not everyone can "fix" their dog over the "internet" but some people can! I believe you're one of "us."

Maybe it's time to stop pouring money down a rathole on "trainers"??

Just a thought.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> jsca honestly your only "real" problem seems to be your "underestimating" yourself!
> 
> You seem to think well, I'm not a pro so the "experts" must know more than "I" do??
> 
> ...



The problem is, is that I want him to be "okay" in public settings :-( 

I don't really ever expect to be able to trust him to do the things we used to, like 4th of July parades, off leash beach walks, off leash hikes in the woods, etc. But I do want to be able to take him on leashed walks in the park, busier hiking trails, etc. 

I can totally manage him on neighborhood walks, but we have to cross the street a lot, duck down side streets, etc to avoid people walking their dogs. 

He is such a perfect, obedient gentleman in the house, and such a sweet and gentle natured dog to the people he knows. We even have a small 10lb. Rambunctious little JRT/sheltie mix that he is just so fabulous and patient with, even though she is an annoying little terror at times.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jsca said:


> The problem is, is that I want him to be "okay" in public settings :-(


Ohhh a Bubble Dog! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...5-muzzles-bubbles-aggressive-dogs-public.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5527417-post7.html 

I have dealt with them. My GSD was Human Aggressive and A Boxer I worked with had fear of people issues.

I use a Slip Lead Leash, but the tool means nothing in and of itself. The handler that gave me the Boxers Slip Lead, swore up and down that he pulled like a freight train! Uh no it was her, not the tool and not the dog.

I did "Who Pet's..." with both dogs. And as it turns out, if you look at the links I posted. You will see in the Fearful Dog Blog, on walking your dog, it is basically the same approach.

I pretty much avoided other dogs as a life style choice anyway my guys were taught to ignore other dogs. If your dog already has a problem, with reactivity on leash you will need to work on that as a separate issue. But the essence is still the same move on and ignore and manage the dogs space.

Video clip I posted is a good start, it's all about distance and staying under threshold with leash reactive dogs.

And you could consider the use of a muzzle at least for a little while. It's use helps to change the dogs mind set. The dog can't bite, so is less likely to act a fool and it's use will help "you" to relax.

My GSD is still not a great fan of company in "his" home but he is safe at home and out in public. Pretty much I had to work to get him to "aloof" but I got it done. 

Hope this helps to some degree by way of further explanation??


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

pets4life said:


> i agre with selzer a real red zone dog, I know a dog that will nail you hard if you use a prong on hiim but he responds great to positive training.
> 
> HE started biting in the first place the first owner used a prong on him and he nailed them hard. TO me a real red zone dog is a dangerous dog and you dont use a prong on one if you dont know them.JMHO or without a muzzle. I don't consider it fear aggression though.


My dog would attack you if you didn't know him and you used a prong collar on him. I took him to a conventional trainer who gave him a minor correction using a classic Cesar reward hind quarters finger jab and he offered a full teeth growl which is basically 1 step before he attacks. 

He's broken out of a prong collar too, which because I was aware that this can be an issue I also had him on a backup rope leash, did not result in massive disaster. But it could have as he is dog fearful and people wary and in that case it was another large (he's just under 140lbs) dog that prompted the response. 

I used to believe Cesar knew what he was doing. And to a degree, with negative reinforcement that he practices, he does. But his shows do not really elaborate very well on the dangers OR the importance of timing. And his dominance mumbo jumbo has absolutely no substantive backing at all - and it has been tested. 

If you use negative reinforcement, unless you time it just right there is a high likelyhood your dog will associate the absolute wrong thing with the punishment. This can be very damaging to your relationship with your dog as well as possibly making your dogs fears worse. 

More over, it has been proven time and again to be less effective than the clicker and treats. You can train a spider with a clicker and the appropriate reward. You gonna train a spider with a prong collar? I realize it's an absurd comparison, but the point is one method simply works better than the other.

And in the event you do make a mistake with a reward based system the damage is quite minimal to arguably non existent. 

I am glad the OP has recognized that it seems very backwards to be giving a correction with a prong during these events. When a dog is very stressed out it isn't thinking clearly. It should in fact be removed from the situation and the situation should be reset and you should read your dog and how it's responding to stimuli. Keep the stimuli to low levels and gradually build up while offering positive encouragement. This is a proven formula for success. This is a very time consuming process. Some dogs will never really get there. You have to accept these dogs for what they are and respect them greatly.

I think that jsca has a very good chance at getting the dog where it needs to be to do the things she/he wants to do. To me, the first step is already taken in recognizing what methodologies are effective and are not effective. As far as your hypothetical you posed to the other trainer - when meeting strange dogs, especially if they are off leash and coming at you - treats are a huge huge friend. Throw em at the other dog in that case. Or use them to distract your dog. Communicate with the other owners that it would be best to keep distance and ask if it would be ok when you have to pass if you threw some treats out to distract their dog while keeping your dog as focused on you as possible (treats again, or a toy or whatever motivates him or her). Get a yellow scarf indicating your dog is dog reactive as well (i'm not sure if you were aware of this movement).


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

shepherdsnmastiffs said:


> My dog would attack you if you didn't know him and you used a prong collar on him. I took him to a conventional trainer who gave him a minor correction using a classic Cesar reward hind quarters finger jab and he offered a full teeth growl which is basically 1 step before he attacks.
> 
> He's broken out of a prong collar too, which because I was aware that this can be an issue I also had him on a backup rope leash, did not result in massive disaster. But it could have as he is dog fearful and people wary and in that case it was another large (he's just under 140lbs) dog that prompted the response.
> 
> ...



Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do if he won't accept a treat? He isn't very food motivated in general, but when he's past his threshold and there is another dog around he won't accept any type of treat regardless of how high value. 

He also isn't toy motivated. He is one of those rare dogs that is mostly motivated by my praise — but his focus and attention go out the window in these situations.

Also, I can't exactly throw food at random peoples dogs lol. Even if we could get that close, I'm sure the owners wouldn't like that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

try to keep him below his threshold...redirect his attention if you notice him zoning in on another dog or person. loose leash, head in the other direction with a nice collar pop, praise when he focuses back to you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not do group classes yet. I would not use the head halters, especially if he already had a bad experience, and is prone to lunging (they are not really safe for that, not safe for the dog's head/neck and not meant to control a dog in that situation).

I would work on building the dog's confidence rather than placing him in the situations that make him react. At home, work on stuff that is fun and engaging for him, reward him for his focus on you, mark and praise/reward *every* time he notices something that might make him react but chooses to ignore ("LAT" game). I think both the dog and handler/owner need more confidence and trust in each other before putting it to the test in a more stimulating environment like a group class.

Group classes are easy for some dogs, but very difficult for others. Do not worry about where you or the dog *should* be in your training, just focus on what he really needs right now, which I think is more confidence, security, and motivation.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

jsca said:


> Do you have any suggestions as to what I can do if he won't accept a treat? He isn't very food motivated in general, but when he's past his threshold and there is another dog around he won't accept any type of treat regardless of how high value.
> 
> He also isn't toy motivated. He is one of those rare dogs that is mostly motivated by my praise — but his focus and attention go out the window in these situations.
> 
> Also, I can't exactly throw food at random peoples dogs lol. Even if we could get that close, I'm sure the owners wouldn't like that.


The food strategy works better for off leash problems, which my dog has had experience with. The best bet, and this might be hard to hear because it does mean limiting your dogs public time for a while, is to slowly build your dogs confidence until you can successfully take him into a situation where the hypothetical might happen. 

A private lesson can be very helpful with the proper trainer, someone with a very laid back dog who is used to dealing with dogs like yours. It doesn't sound like, from what you describe, that your dog is naturally fearful - but that it had a bad experience, perhaps more than once, with other dogs. Perhaps more naturally fearful than some, but not over the top like some poorly bred dogs are. 

The idea is to replace those negative thoughts with positive ones. There does come a point where nothing will get your dogs attention back because he is in full on fear/fight/flight mode. You can't reason with your dog when they get this way, which means you have to watch for the signs of escalation and see how close you can get before it's too much - and if you wind up in that situation you should leave it and explain to whoever else is there why. 

I do strongly recommend a private trainer though as it's going to be a very controlled environment with dogs who have experience with fearful dogs like yours. 

The trainer I took Charlie (my dog) to when he started growling at me (yeah, he's fearful of other dogs too because of bad experiences, but I was using negative reinforcement at the wrong times and he did not appreciate it, it's taken me a year and a half to get back to where I was with him relationship wise and we're not even fully there yet) was absolutely top flight and I have no doubt this was a huge reason why it was so effective. She understood the methodology and reasoning very in depth. She was in fact invited to give a speech at a conference for positive reinforcement training that various dog handling professionals attend annually. If you wanted, I could ask her if she knows any good trainers in your area. I am from BC in Canada, but she has contacts world wide as well as a lot of experience with GSD trainers and police dog trainers (who are almost universally moving to positive reinforcement only).

Dog on dog fearfulness is definitely one of the more tricky problems to solve and set backs and bring your work way way back. For example, you desensitize your dog and then all of sudden some owners with a dog off leash have their dog go after yours again and you're back at square one - which is why I mentioned the treat throwing trick, it does work sometimes at distracting the incoming dogs.

Avoid dog parks and off leash areas completely. I actually recommend this regardless of how well trained your dog is, other peoples are not and if you have a big dog that can do damage it can get YOU in trouble even if it's not really your fault. People always blame the big dog, especially if there dogs interact fine with others typically.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> try to keep him below his threshold...redirect his attention if you notice him zoning in on another dog or person. loose leash, head in the other direction with a nice collar pop, praise when he focuses back to you.



The problem is his threshold is extremely low. Basically if he can see the dog, he is going to react. I can get him to follow a "sit" command within a pretty close distance from the aggregator, but I cannot at all get his focus on me at that point. 

The other problem is, that I can't control where other people walk their dogs and can't stop them from approaching closer (even if it's across the street). I unfortunately don't have anyone I know who can help me with the situation either, as no one I know is willing to risk their own dogs safety to help my dogs issues.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I would not do group classes yet. I would not use the head halters, especially if he already had a bad experience, and is prone to lunging (they are not really safe for that, not safe for the dog's head/neck and not meant to control a dog in that situation).
> 
> I would work on building the dog's confidence rather than placing him in the situations that make him react. At home, work on stuff that is fun and engaging for him, reward him for his focus on you, mark and praise/reward *every* time he notices something that might make him react but chooses to ignore ("LAT" game). I think both the dog and handler/owner need more confidence and trust in each other before putting it to the test in a more stimulating environment like a group class.
> 
> Group classes are easy for some dogs, but very difficult for others. Do not worry about where you or the dog *should* be in your training, just focus on what he really needs right now, which I think is more confidence, security, and motivation.



That was my thought exactly with the head collars and why I've never used them previously. 

The other problem is like I mentioned he is a perfect gentleman at home. When I ask it of him, and even most times when I don't, he's completely focused on me in our home environment. He's pretty good at this too within our backyard and at walks when there aren't the "threats," however it's sometimes a challenge because as I said he isn't really very food motivated. It's hard to get him to accept any type of a treat in an outdoor environment and he's been known to turn his head up to fresh cooked chicken and steak even inside our home. 

To my surprise, aside from the set backs he actually has done really wonderfully in the group class — FAR better than I've expected him to! I never thought I could get him to behave calmly around 7-8 strange dogs!!! I'm so impressed with him at that. Basically the only issue is if anyone gets too close. 

Another notable thing is that he really seems fine around dogs as long as they are 100% relaxed. Our class trainer keeps her golden kenneled in the room while she conducts it. Jager sits within 4 feet of this dog and pays absolutely no mind to it. Basically because it's a calm, relaxed dog that isn't paying an ounce of attention to him.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

shepherdsnmastiffs said:


> The food strategy works better for off leash problems, which my dog has had experience with. The best bet, and this might be hard to hear because it does mean limiting your dogs public time for a while, is to slowly build your dogs confidence until you can successfully take him into a situation where the hypothetical might happen.
> 
> A private lesson can be very helpful with the proper trainer, someone with a very laid back dog who is used to dealing with dogs like yours. It doesn't sound like, from what you describe, that your dog is naturally fearful - but that it had a bad experience, perhaps more than once, with other dogs. Perhaps more naturally fearful than some, but not over the top like some poorly bred dogs are.
> 
> ...



I absolutely would love to find an actual qualified private trainer to work with. I just TBH don't want to throw any more money away on ones that just don't work. I'm 23 dealing with my own house, a car payment, 3 dogs and other bills. 

Not that I'm not willing to spend the money on fixing the issue, as it is VERY worth it to me, I'm just sick of pissing my money away. I've probably already spent about $700 in the past year and have had absolutely nothing to show for it. 

And yeah absolutely. I definitely wouldn't risk taking him to any area where he'd be exposed to off leash dogs. I used to love dog parks before our experience and couldn't imagine why you wouldn't take your dog to one, and this experience has really opened my eyes that just ONE negative experience can negatively affect your dog for life.

The person who's dog attacked Jager was somewhat of a friend and someone who I thought I could trust, so honestly I won't even have any of my dogs go on play dates even at this point. Having 3 dogs, they all play great with each other and I don't see any reason to risk this sort of thing happening again with my other dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jsca said:


> The problem is his threshold is extremely low. Basically if he can see the dog, he is going to react. I can get him to follow a "sit" command within a pretty close distance from the aggregator, but I cannot at all get his focus on me at that point.


At some point, this where the finger poke heel tap or I did the leash pop, on the top of head with the loose end of the leash will come into play! 

But not when a dog is "Way over threshold!!"





jsca said:


> , as no one I know is willing to risk their own dogs safety to help my dogs issues.


OK now we are getting somewhere! 

Such people do exist! I found one in my neighborhood that was willing to help me with Gunther's (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) dog issues. I said thank you but "No" I was not willing to risk someone else's dogs safety!  

But there is a middle ground get a muzzle for your dog everybody is safe and then you can start work on finding the distance, joint walks in safety.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Also, I am in the Cleveland, OH (USA) area. If your trainer (shepherdsnmastiffs), or any one else on this forum can make suggestions for a viable trainer that can help I would be forever grateful. I am willing to drive within an hour radius as long as it can be worked around my work schedule (M-F, 8:30-5:30). Although I do live in a major metropolitan area so I'm sure there's someone who is closer than that! 

I just know that if this can't be completely fixed it can be at least managed. He's not *completely* aggressive. He has shown that he can accept strangers and strange dogs when introduced properly. Not to say that I don't take his/my own/the public's safety seriously, but I think that this proves his bark is way bigger than his bite...although I'd never test it, I can say with a good amount of confidence that he wouldn't actually bite someone. 

I just know that there's someone who can help me with this. I just haven't found them yet, and I haven't been able to resolve it myself. 

If I never do fix this problem he'll still always have a great home and a great life with me, it just saddens me so much that my best friend can't come anywhere with me. I hate leaving him at home all the time. He's such an amazing dog and it's such a disservice to him and his breed that he's so cooped up and is limited to neighborhood walks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I didn't read all the posts but I would say to focus on focus. Baby steps. Work on the focus every day for a month straight if needed. Once you get that focus use it to move forward with threshold work.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the book control unleashed has several exercises that build off each other to work on dogs reactive behaviors...if you haven't yet ordered this book, l'd highly recommend you do so.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

My trainer got back to me with a list of possible trainers. She listed them in order she felt they would be most appropriate, but she doesn't personally know them. She simply did some research and used a search engine for these trainers which might be useful to you.

I trust her judgement quite a bit for what it's worth. She listed them in this order:

https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/Lees_Rachel
https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/Craig_Hasel
https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/Callahan_Monica

I'd talk to them all and see which you think is going to fit best.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I wish you could learn from my friend Bev. She is a little thing but she doesn't take any crap from dogs. Dizan, my last male, wasn't people aggressive but he was dog aggressive. The first day of her class he was lunging at all the dogs. She said," give him to me." He went flying threw the air 3 times before he sat down quiet and had this ok lady i give look on his face. LOL


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

shepherdsnmastiffs said:


> My trainer got back to me with a list of possible trainers. She listed them in order she felt they would be most appropriate, but she doesn't personally know them. She simply did some research and used a search engine for these trainers which might be useful to you.
> 
> I trust her judgement quite a bit for what it's worth. She listed them in this order:
> 
> ...



Thank you, I appreciate this so much!!! I actually do know of Rachel Lees, or at least The Behavior Clinic where she works. It was one of the first places recommended to me, to meet with a behaviorist but the cost was pretty steep ($500 for a 2 hour session) so I had passed on them. Being that someone out of country has now recommended them, looks like I maybe shouldn't have considering I have spent at least $500 now anyways...lol. 

I'm definitely going to give them a call and see if her pricing is different than the actual behaviorist, maybe I can skip that step and just work with her as a trainer. I'd rather not spend thousands of dollars if I can help it, although that may just be something I'll have to accept and make it happen.


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## jsca (Dec 5, 2013)

Also a quick update. Over the weekend one of my husband's friends dropped by the house unexpected. Jager went nuts when he knocked and continued to carry on after my husband went out on the porch to talk to said friend. 

So I went with what the trainer told me (it had worked before) and put him into a sit, stood in front of him while facing the threat, told him "quiet" and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo she recommended saying ("it's only a person. It's okay. I've got this." In an authoritative voice.) 

Well it wasn't working this time so I said forget it. This isn't working. I'm trying things my own way. 

Got out a bag of treats, got him to focus on me, gave him various commands. And that was it. No grumbling, whining, barking. Just complete attention. (Way to go Jager!!!)

Granted, this wouldn't have worked in a situation outside our house. And granted, I'm still for more balanced training opposed to 100% +R. 

But this just affirms my belief that this is being handled in the completely wrong manner. My dog is *fear* aggressive. He's _fearful_. The last thing he needs in a scary situation is for his handler to be breaking him down more and scolding him and acting in a somewhat aggressive manner myself. He needs me to reassure him that it's NOT a scary situation and that its okay.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you redirected him/broke his focus on the 'threat' 
Adding in obedience commands. It works well and teaches self control as well and builds confidence through the praise/marking the good behavior and iignoring the reactivity.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

OP- regarding fear aggression, I found this a very interesting read, and had to read it a few times. Looks can and will be deceiving. - MangoDogs. I agree that teaching OB and focus is by far the best way to go when it comes to reactivity or aggressive behaviors, but I also believe in proper and well-timed corrections (like the OP). 

I'd advise not throwing a ton of money at various trainers. It shouldn't take that much money or that long a time to get the kind of control and behaviors you are looking for, if you find someone who is experienced. How far are you from Tyler Muto in Buffalo, NY? I like his videos and his training philosophy, but have no personal experience working with him. I think if you are going to spend money, spend it on someone who has worked through similar behavioral problems with success in a bunch of dogs, get references and check them. 

And give some thought to the term fear-aggressive. Happy to discuss, I'm still working through the take home part of this article myself.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

Nikitta said:


> I wish you could learn from my friend Bev. She is a little thing but she doesn't take any crap from dogs. Dizan, my last male, wasn't people aggressive but he was dog aggressive. The first day of her class he was lunging at all the dogs. She said," give him to me." He went flying threw the air 3 times before he sat down quiet and had this ok lady i give look on his face. LOL


That particular trainer would have been killed by my dog unless she had a harsh device for control and then he would have simply built his fear of people even more than it already was. 

She might have given your dog fear of people. Hope it resolved the fear of dogs at least. Negative reinforcement can work if timed properly, but it's a risky business and it's less effective long term (it's been studied, animal behaviorists who go to school and get a degree always use it). There are very few situations where I see it as a useful tool and when it's used it needs to be very controlled - e collars are probably the best thing because they create a distinct separation from the discomfort and the person doing the training (if your dog associates the punishment with you you will start to see other problems develop). 

You sometimes have to be creative with positive reinforcement, and you definitely need to be patient - but you never run the risk of damaging the relationship between you and your dog.

If you feel like you must use negative reinforcement (sometimes it's tricky to come up with solutions using positive only for certain situations.. off leash chasing of deer for example) get an e collar. It will significantly reduce the risk your dog associates the punishment with you which is probably the most dangerous thing when dealing with the kinds of dogs we're dealing with IMO.


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