# Breeder Mentor



## bethany.cole2013

So, I really hope that I can post this without anyone chopping my head off. In 5-10 more years I hope to have upgraded my house and have bought more land with the house and I also hope to be well on my way to becoming a very notable and respected breeder of German Shepherds. I am absolutely in love with the breed, but I want to be sure that I can get a quality education about what it takes to be a very responsible and very respectable breeder. But, as most of you may already know, Kentucky isn't exactly a state well known for producing quality puppies and is more known for being a state for horrible animal abusers. I'm not going to be breeding anything or even thinking about it until I have titled many dogs and have worked with a knowledgeable breeder and learned everything that I can possibly learn within a 5-10 year time frame. I also want to be sure that I am properly and adequately set up for a breeding operation. I have contacted a few of the better breeders in the state, but so far none are willing to work with me. Would it be an option for me to work with and talk with a breeder that is out of state? Any advice?


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## qbchottu

What lines? Working or show? There are good breeders here.


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## Freestep

Do you know what lines you want? There are at least three distinct bloodlines (or more, depending on who you talk to).

How many GSDs have you owned?

How old are you?

What do you do for a living? I hope you don't plan to make a living breeding dogs, because breeders rarely come out ahead, most have to work to support their dog habit.

I'm not a breeder, just nosy.  And maybe with this information, we can help point you in the right direction.


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## bethany.cole2013

Freestep said:


> Do you know what lines you want? There are at least three distinct bloodlines (or more, depending on who you talk to). *I'm unfamiliar with the different bloodlines, etc. but I would want to maybe offer some working and some show? I don't know if that's frowned upon to cross the two or not, which is why this is another area that I would need to talk with an experienced breeder with stock that I really like and admire. *
> 
> How many GSDs have you owned? *I currently have two right now. One is my unregistered bi-color female Sheba and the other is my obedience prospect, Nyx. I never had any intentions on showing Sheba, so I never registered her. She could have been registered, I just didn't. I now have bought Nyx already registered, so of course she's my first "papered" dog. Also, my family had three while I was in my teenager years. *
> 
> How old are you? *I am 31 right now. *
> 
> What do you do for a living? I hope you don't plan to make a living breeding dogs, because breeders rarely come out ahead, most have to work to support their dog habit. *I am an insurance agent for a privately owned company here in Ky. I have read an article that breaks down the cost of doing breeding the correct way and I have realized that breeders rarely ever come out ahead and I am completely prepared for that. I'm in a financially stable place in my life right now and I'm putting back money a little at a time in order to always have a reserve built up. *
> 
> I'm not a breeder, just nosy.  And maybe with this information, we can help point you in the right direction.


I hope my answers helped in possibly pointing me in the right direction.


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## Wolfgeist

There is nothing wrong with wanting to have your own respected bloodline of German Shepherds... It is a rewarding hobby born of hard, hard work. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders and want to learn.

You'll learn. Research, talk to the experienced members here, ask questions, read the informative threads, join community, own dogs, train dogs, test dogs, learn how to select correct temperament, conformation, etc. There are a lot of resources.

Take your time... don't rush. Train your current dogs, test their temperaments, drives, etc to learn how to distinguish them and understand them. Go to clubs, go to shows, research, learn, test...

Talk, visit, compete, etc. LEARN! Learn about genetics, issues with the GSD, etc.

Elem. of Temperament

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

German Shepherd Dog abbreviations, Definitions, and German terms | How to read German pedigree

To start...


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## Freestep

The first thing you have to do is study pedigrees and dogs, decide which bloodline you are interested in: German show, German working, or American show, then you find a breeder that understands that bloodline. 

Most reputable breeders do stick mainly with one line; some cross German working and German show lines, and some American show breeders bring in German show lines, but crossing must be done only by those who are very knowledgable and experienced with both lines, IMO.

Is there a SchH club in your area?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

KY does STINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when it comes to animals. TERRIBLE. TERRIBLE. That doesn't mean someone can't breed the best of the breed in that state. And there are many others just tossing dogs together willy nilly and taking them to the shelter when they are done with them - so good to read of someone who has that awareness of what surrounds you and wants to try to learn to do things in a better way. Thank you - it is important for a breed to have real breeders. I think there could be way less puppy producers but that's another story! 

I have met MANY great GSDs from KY that came up through rescue - they will euth any dog quickly that is not nice so we get excellent dogs from there.  I have also met a dog from gbchottu's one breeder - used to be in her signature so I am going from memory on the spelling - Drache Field - and while it was only one dog so not representative of everything the kennel does, she was outstanding. Clear headed, not extreme in structure, nice drive, just perfect. 

In the meantime since you gave yourself a nice timeline, in addition to learning tons about bloodlines and pedigrees, and participating in activities to see all the things your dogs can do, perhaps volunteering at your local shelter with the GSDs (because it is hard to find people who will work with the larger dogs and we have 1 person whose evals we trust in the whole state) will also give you some insights on behaviors and structure you do and don't want to see. You will also get some ideas on why screening your buyers is important, and maybe even some tips on that.


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## selzer

Go to training classes, go to shows, join a schutzhund club, join an AKC German Shepherd Dog Club. Go to meetings, volunteer at shows. Learn the ins and the outs of both types, and try to figure out who you fit best with. 

Down the line when you have learned a ton about the different lines, and training, and shows, etc, then start talking to the best breeders in your are that are within the lines you like best. 

I started going to classes, and there was a woman in my classes that I really did not know. After two or three separate sets of classes with this lady in the class, we had a brief conversation about who my dog was related to, and I felt she pretty much dismissed the breeding because she did not care for Fanto. Ok then. Maybe a year and a half later, after I had shown in rally with about 5 of my dogs, we were still going to classes and she invited me to go to a shepherd club meeting. I think it was then that I realized that she had nearly 50 years of experience, etc. 

But I think she had to decide that I was serious or committed. There are a bajillion people out there that get a purebred dog and have visions of making puppies. Of course we like puppies. There really aren't that many that are willing to go the whole nine yards. And even those who will go 4-6 yards and follow through seem few and far between. 

Breeders are busy people. Yes they should try and help people who are thinking about starting out. I also think it makes sense to get out there, get training, work with your dogs, and get noticed by breeders who are doing the kinds of things you are doing, Show them you have what it takes.

Kentucky has a reputation, so does Ohio, and PA and Missouri, and probably 47 other states. There are still good breeders. To find them, you got to go where they hang out. You got to go to shows or trials and clubs. You have to get involved.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> But I think she had to decide that I was serious or committed. There are a bajillion people out there that get a purebred dog and have visions of making puppies. Of course we like puppies. There really aren't that many that are willing to go the whole nine yards. And even those who will go 4-6 yards and follow through seem few and far between.
> 
> Breeders are busy people. Yes they should try and help people who are thinking about starting out. I also think it makes sense to get out there, get training, work with your dogs, and get noticed by breeders who are doing the kinds of things you are doing, Show them you have what it takes.


Selzer is correct. It's not enough to just ask around for a mentor. You have to make THEM notice YOU, by getting out there, training and showing, joining clubs, learning, asking questions, listening, studying, reading... really prove yourself dedicated. You can't do all that on the internet (although it does help).

Many wannabe-breeders start out looking great, and then their interest fizzles, or they decide taking shortcuts is easier. Seasoned breeders and dog-people have seen it happen too many times to be overly enthusiastic about helping newbies, so be prepared for that. Don't expect people to fall head over heels for you right away--you really have to prove yourself, and it takes years.

None of this is meant to discourage you, in fact, we NEED more responsible, ethical people breeding dogs the RIGHT way, and everyone has to start somewhere. You are saying all the right things so far, and if you stand by your principles, you'll be miles ahead of most.

One thing I can honestly recommend is... stay on this forum and read, read, read. Ask questions. Be prepared for differing opinions and arguments which may confuse you at first. The more you learn, and the more you actually work with dogs, the more things will make sense.

Breeding dogs is an ethical quagmire. When I was younger, I thought I wanted to breed GSDs too...but the more I learned, the more I realized that I just don't have the temperament for it. Be prepared to ponder a lot of philosophical concerns as well as the nuts and bolts of it all.


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## Gharrissc

I also thought I wanted to become a breeder,but decided to go into rescue as well,which isn't any easier.


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## bethany.cole2013

Freestep said:


> Selzer is correct. It's not enough to just ask around for a mentor. You have to make THEM notice YOU, by getting out there, training and showing, joining clubs, learning, asking questions, listening, studying, reading... really prove yourself dedicated. You can't do all that on the internet (although it does help).
> 
> Many wannabe-breeders start out looking great, and then their interest fizzles, or they decide taking shortcuts is easier. Seasoned breeders and dog-people have seen it happen too many times to be overly enthusiastic about helping newbies, so be prepared for that. Don't expect people to fall head over heels for you right away--you really have to prove yourself, and it takes years.
> 
> None of this is meant to discourage you, in fact, we NEED more responsible, ethical people breeding dogs the RIGHT way, and everyone has to start somewhere. You are saying all the right things so far, and if you stand by your principles, you'll be miles ahead of most.
> 
> One thing I can honestly recommend is... stay on this forum and read, read, read. Ask questions. Be prepared for differing opinions and arguments which may confuse you at first. The more you learn, and the more you actually work with dogs, the more things will make sense.
> 
> Breeding dogs is an ethical quagmire. When I was younger, I thought I wanted to breed GSDs too...but the more I learned, the more I realized that I just don't have the temperament for it. Be prepared to ponder a lot of philosophical concerns as well as the nuts and bolts of it all.* I do this almost on a daily basis. I'm a big question asker and like to know why things work the way they do. I guess I just naturally have a very inquisitive nature.*


I am a bit confused as to why Shutzhund is the end all be all in the German Shepherd breed. I know that the breed is so versatile and can do anything that they put their mind to pretty much. If you guys can go and look at my pictures that I've posted before of Sheba, her conformation is something that I would love to continue to reproduce, but I can't with her. She's spayed and already four years old so I wouldn't breed her anyway. Plus she isn't registered. I've been made aware of all of the health testing that is pretty much required to produce healthy and genetically excellent puppies. So, what I want to ask now is why is Shutzhund so highly prized in the German Shepherd and what are some of the better bloodlines for the sport?


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## Wolfgeist

bethany.cole2013 said:


> I am a bit confused as to why Shutzhund is the end all be all in the German Shepherd breed. I know that the breed is so versatile and can do anything that they put their mind to pretty much. If you guys can go and look at my pictures that I've posted before of Sheba, her conformation is something that I would love to continue to reproduce, but I can't with her. She's spayed and already four years old so I wouldn't breed her anyway. Plus she isn't registered. I've been made aware of all of the health testing that is pretty much required to produce healthy and genetically excellent puppies. So, what I want to ask now is why is Shutzhund so highly prized in the German Shepherd and what are some of the better bloodlines for the sport?


Schutzhund was developed for the breed, but IMHO herding/HGH is just as meaningful. Schutzhund is a great way to test for correct workability, drive, temperament, etc. American and Canadian showlines rarely do well in Schutzhund from my experience. Working lines and German Show are typical in sport.


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## bocron

Wild Wolf said:


> Schutzhund was developed for the breed, but IMHO herding/HGH is just as meaningful. Schutzhund is a great way to test for correct workability, drive, temperament, etc.


:thumbup:

Schutzhund was developed as one of 2 tests recognized by the SV as a dog's worthiness to be bred and to get papers on the progeny. 
In their home country a GSD breeder cannot get pups registered with the SV if the parents don't have certain criteria met, a Schutzhund title or HGH title.

So it is the be-all, end-all test for the GSD because the founding powers that be deemed it so.


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## onyx'girl

Conformation is just one aspect of the breed. Herding, agility and Schutzhund(IPO) show the versatile working ability, but IPO is the true test as far as breed worthiness goes(if done truthfully)as it is according to the SV standards which is managed by the FCI 
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


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## Freestep

Schutzhund was developed as a test of breedworthiness. A "temperament test", if you will. Something that proved the dog's working ability. These days it is not just a breed test, but a sport in and of itself. There are many other venues in which GSDs can prove their working ability, but SchH (or HGH, a herding test) is the test that, in Germany, every GSD MUST pass before they can be bred. 

Here in the US, there is NO temperament or breedworthiness test required for breeding, which some argue has caused the downfall of the breed. But many US breeders still follow the German tradition and title their dogs as part of a selection process. 

It's generally agreed that working lines score higher at SchH than show lines, but in Germany, ALL GSDs must pass at least a SchH1 regardless of bloodline. So technically all of them should be capable of it. However, American show lines have not been participating in SchH for many decades, and to date I am not aware of any American show line GSDs attaining a title. I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I think there is one titled dog who is half American and half German show line.


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## carmspack

bethany ! hello. How would you like several year's worth of German Shepherd Dog Reviews , going back to the 1970's for the cost of shipping . There are good breeder and judge and handler interviews , articles , example Carmen Battaglia http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/early_neurological_stimulation_en.pdf

who also writes about genetics and other issues. The magazines are rich in pictures , one or two per page almost every page . This is a visual documentation of the changes of the breed in North America making trends and fads and changes in conformation evident .


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## cliffson1

From 1970 to mid 1980's my German Shepherd review was the most highly read and prized literature in my house....lol Take Carmen up on the offer for the historical content and perspective of the American lines.....if you're really sharp you will be able to see some interesting trend develop.


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## carmspack

the reason I am not keeping this collection is because I already have it - I don't need duplicates .


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## qbchottu

bethany: You need to do a lot more legwork in terms of reading and learning theoretical knowledge. There is no short cut to this and a breeder does not want to spend the significant time it takes to teach you the basics. This can easily be done over the internet, and with DVDs/videos. There are lots of sources where you can gain info on lines and pedigrees. Once you decide which line is right for you, then start narrowing down to a particular venue and then look for a mentor. Use this forum, other sources like pedigreedatabase, online links about different lines etc. Like others said, visit different dog related events and figure out which line is right for you. By the way, you cannot "decide" to be a breeder. You go out, do the leg work, learn learn learn, if you do it the right way, it takes a long time, you won't make any money and it will be a lot of work. If you will be any good at it...only time and your progeny will tell!

Where are you located? There are several schh clubs, agility, obedience, AKC clubs in the state and some good ones in neighboring states. You will need to travel, but that is pretty much a given in dog related activities - you will spend a good majority of your time traveling!


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## JakodaCD OA

Tho I obviously can not speak for her, and I have no idea how close in KY to her you are, but Wanda aka Kleinen Hain German Shepherds - Home may be able to direct you or help you out re: mentoring.

She has working lines but does it all with her dogs. My girl Masi came from wanda and I am very happy with her.


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## bocron

qbchottu said:


> bethany: You need to do a lot more legwork in terms of reading and learning theoretical knowledge. There is no short cut to this and a breeder does not want to spend the significant time it takes to teach you the basics. This can easily be done over the internet, and with DVDs/videos. There are lots of sources where you can gain info on lines and pedigrees. Once you decide which line is right for you, then start narrowing down to a particular venue and then look for a mentor.



:thumbup:

This is right on the money! 

I can speak from the same place regarding training apprentices. We get quite a few calls a year from people looking for us to mentor them as helpers or just general trainers. We have learned over the years not to waste our time unless the person can show some evidence that they have taken it upon themselves to start the learning process already. Our latest guy sent me youtbube videos of the Schtuzhund type training he has been doing with his 40lb shelter dog. We were very impressed that he had worked that hard on a dog that really didn't have the natural ability for much of the work. He had read books, watched trials on youtube and joined forums. This little dog was doing some great focused heeling and had started on a nice little hold and bark as well as being taught some cute tricks for fun. We had no trouble taking him on and even ended up loaning him one of our GSDs to foster and train which has been great fun. But he had to show that he had made the effort and would pursue the sport with or without us.


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## bethany.cole2013

I just want to thank everyone for their nice and respectful responses. Carmspack, I would love to take you up on that offer! Just send me a PM with the details and such, please. I'm very much well aware that to do this the right way it's going to involve a lot of work (blood, sweat and tears) but I'm completely prepared and ready for that. I'll do what I can within reason of my work schedule and between taking care of my own dogs, that's for sure. I'm definitely going to start going around to different venues, etc and seeing what catches my eye and maybe talking to some people that own the dogs that catch my eye. 

Another question. Since Shutzhund is the end all be all of GSD's so to speak, are conformation breeders generally frowned upon? I'm not talking about the extreme conformation like the "frog dogs" you see in the famed youtube video comparing the dogs of the past to the show ring dogs now with extreme angulation in the rear. That's taking some things to the extreme. However, there are some UKC conformation competitor dogs that doesn't look too bad as far as the rear angulation and such goes. What are everyone's thoughts on using the UKC?


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## bethany.cole2013

Oh and I have also applied to become a member of the GSDCA.


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## bocron

bethany.cole2013 said:


> What are everyone's thoughts on using the UKC?


I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but to me if you are showing UKC it is because you want to exhibit a trait that is not accepted by the SV, White GSDs would be an example. I don't put much faith in a UKC conformation title. I have seen enough shows where the judge was totally unprepared for a breed and was referring to the standard before walking in the ring. IMHO, if you are at that level of knowledge about a given breed then you should be apprenticing under a knowledgeable judge until you know the breed(s). 
UKC is a good place to do obedience titles and the like,though. I know plenty of people who have limited access to AKC shows so will do UKC for CD, CDX etc.
I hate to be ungracious sounding, but to many a UKC CH title is kind of like getting your degree from one of those late night informercials. You may run across a good program on occasion but not as a rule.


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## carmspack

this morning I was reading Peter Rohde's blistering comment on 2007 BSZS . He says he tries to be in the middle , with some consideration , different than the higher expectations (entschieden hoher sein muss!) of the BSP and even so he says there were some very good dogs at the same time some terrible , strikingly bad dogs , that made you wonder how some of them ever passed a schutzhund trial. 

You have to read widely. I would go one step further and would recommend a rudimentary grasp of some German . Rosetta Stone language aides which have proven themselves effective . This way you can go to the heart of the matter and read first hand comments and in depth information. 

I am more than happy to send the GSD Reviews to you. I am going to pick them up today and may have one box ready to send to you tomorrow. All I ask is to be reimbursed for the shipping costs. 

Any way I can support you in your journey I would be more than happy to participate.


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## bethany.cole2013

carmspack said:


> this morning I was reading Peter Rohde's blistering comment on 2007 BSZS . He says he tries to be in the middle , with some consideration , different than the higher expectations (entschieden hoher sein muss!) of the BSP and even so he says there were some very good dogs at the same time some terrible , strikingly bad dogs , that made you wonder how some of them ever passed a schutzhund trial.
> 
> You have to read widely. I would go one step further and would recommend a rudimentary grasp of some German . Rosetta Stone language aides which have proven themselves effective . This way you can go to the heart of the matter and read first hand comments and in depth information.
> 
> I am more than happy to send the GSD Reviews to you. I am going to pick them up today and may have one box ready to send to you tomorrow. All I ask is to be reimbursed for the shipping costs.
> 
> Any way I can support you in your journey I would be more than happy to participate.*Thank you! I do appreciate the help so much. I also sent you a private message, so you should have it in your inbox.*


Another question. Why would someone breed dogs that were carriers of DM? That would seem almost unethical in my opinion. Anyone else's thoughts on this?


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## Freestep

As long as you don't breed carrier to carrier, the offspring should not be afflicted with DM. So if a known DM carrier showed up in a pedigree, I couldn't get too upset about it. That said, if someone is breeding a DM carrier, that dog had better be outstanding in every other way IMO.

In some breeds, the gene pool is so small and genetic issues like this are so widespread that you pretty much have to breed carriers, or you will be taking out half the gene pool. I don't think this is the case with GSDs and DM, though.


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## bethany.cole2013

Freestep said:


> As long as you don't breed carrier to carrier, the offspring should not be afflicted with DM. So if a known DM carrier showed up in a pedigree, I couldn't get too upset about it. That said, if someone is breeding a DM carrier, that dog had better be outstanding in every other way IMO.
> 
> In some breeds, the gene pool is so small and genetic issues like this are so widespread that you pretty much have to breed carriers, or you will be taking out half the gene pool. I don't think this is the case with GSDs and DM, though.


About 90% of this individual breeder's dogs are DM carriers and a few of her breeding dogs are even DM mutant/mutant.


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## onyx'girl

What is the draw of this breeders program to have her DM dogs so in demand?


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## Freestep

bethany.cole2013 said:


> About 90% of this individual breeder's dogs are DM carriers and a few of her breeding dogs are even DM mutant/mutant.


Who is the breeder and how did you find this person? Just a random Google search?


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## bethany.cole2013

I just did a random google search and they primarily breed for prized colors such as mainly livers and whites. They have some really pretty dogs, but I don't necessarily agree with her using her breeding dogs that are DM carriers.


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## Andaka

Have you read the standard, either from the GSDCA or the SV? Whites and livers (and blues) are not prized colors for breeders who follow either standard.

I do conformation, obedience, agility, herding, etc., with my American Show Lines.

And there have been 3 American Show Line Shutzhund 1 dogs. The 1/2 German show line 1/2 American Show Line dog is now a Schutzhund 3.


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## Freestep

Liver and white are not "prized" colors. Both are a disqualifying fault. Backyard breeders claim that liver, blue and white are "rare" colors, and therefore "prized" because they want to sell puppies, but the reason they are rare is that they are undesireable. When they pop up in a reputable breeder's litter, they are placed on non-breeding contracts. 

If a breeder is breeding strictly for color, I'm not surprised that they are breeding DM carriers too.

Be careful when perusing breeder websites, there are an awful lot of bad ones out there, spewing a lot of disinformation. Since you're just now starting to learn, you may not recognize certain code words that mark the less-than-reputable breeder, and you might be fooled by some of them. Take anything you read on the internet with a BIG grain of salt, especially breeder websites. There are some people here on this forum, whose knowledge and experience are very trustworthy, and Carmen is one of them, so be sure to do your fact-checking. 

Where is that "How to find a reputable breeder" link?

Andaka, who are the AKC showline SchH1's?


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## bethany.cole2013

I knew they weren't prized colors, I was merely being sarcastic. I've read AKC's standard enough to know that it's common knowledge the colors that she is breeding are considered faults. I guess that's why she only shows in UKC conformation. The entire thing of her breeding the DM carriers are what sent red flags off in my head. This breeder does offer pet prices or show/breeding prices on the pups she does produce and I'm wondering if this is just a way to sell the puppies easier to people that don't know any better or if this is actually a well thought out practice. I didn't see a link on her website talking about a puppy questionairre or anything either. Her prices are high especially now knowing that she breeds DM carriers together AND she's breeding for faulty colors and has to show in UKC because of that. I'm working with Carmen and she is going to be sending me her extra copies of the GSD Review magazines for me to look at and learn from. I would love to see any kind of link with some terminology in it to watch out for and how to clearly distinguish a BYB from a reputable breeder by their websites.


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## carmspack

extra copies --? wait till you see the boxes of magazines that you are getting !!! So I had a lot of fun at Linda's this afternoon going through some of the oldest issues going back to 1970 . I swear , page after page , we were both holding up pictures - oh look at this one ! -- . What dogs they were . Mind you these are German Shepherd Dog Reviews which is the monthly publication for the German Shepherd Dog Club of America . Those dogs that we looked at in the 1970's issues would be desireable and relevant today when judged against an international standard. They almost had a DDR essence about them. Good bone , good balanced structure - exaggerations not yet . Any one breeding the "american" type should have a look - back to the future , maybe? I picked a few hoping that they will be scanned (when time allows). 
OR maybe I will flip through a few of the older issues going to Bethany and she could be so nice as to scan them.

The problem with modern show line GSD's , both "american" and "german" is that they no longer have a period of suspension . See how many pictures you can find , dog in motion, with three legs on the ground !


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## bethany.cole2013

carmspack said:


> extra copies --? wait till you see the boxes of magazines that you are getting !!! So I had a lot of fun at Linda's this afternoon going through some of the oldest issues going back to 1970 . I swear , page after page , we were both holding up pictures - oh look at this one ! -- . What dogs they were . Mind you these are German Shepherd Dog Reviews which is the monthly publication for the German Shepherd Dog Club of America . Those dogs that we looked at in the 1970's issues would be desireable and relevant today when judged against an international standard. They almost had a DDR essence about them. Good bone , good balanced structure - exaggerations not yet . Any one breeding the "american" type should have a look - back to the future , maybe? I picked a few hoping that they will be scanned (when time allows).
> OR maybe I will flip through a few of the older issues going to Bethany and she could be so nice as to scan them.
> 
> The problem with modern show line GSD's , both "american" and "german" is that they no longer have a period of suspension . See how many pictures you can find , dog in motion, with three legs on the ground !


Oh I'm going to love this. I love reading and looking at things from the past anyway, so it's going to be especially exciting to be able to see dogs of my favorite breed from the past and read reviews on them. I really can't wait to see these. Thank you, Carmen for doing this. It's really nice of you!


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## NancyJ

In regard to the DM comment. There is still some controversy as to whether the DM test for the "ALS" version of the gene is hitting the right target, particularly since some dogs have been diagnosed on necropsy (the only definiitive diagnosis) as HAVING DM in spite of the fact they are either normal or carriers. A different reseracher (Clemmons U of F) felt this was an MS variant not an ALS variant


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## Freestep

bethany.cole2013 said:


> Oh I'm going to love this. I love reading and looking at things from the past anyway, so it's going to be especially exciting to be able to see dogs of my favorite breed from the past and read reviews on them. I really can't wait to see these. Thank you, Carmen for doing this. It's really nice of you!


I'm a little jealous.  But I don't want to be a breeder, so this reading material will be best put into the hands of someone who wants to be.

You are incredibly lucky to have had Carmen step up to help you, I can't think of a better person to be in contact with for the purpose of learning about GSDs and their history. Soak it up!


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## bethany.cole2013

Freestep said:


> I'm a little jealous.  But I don't want to be a breeder, so this reading material will be best put into the hands of someone who wants to be.
> 
> You are incredibly lucky to have had Carmen step up to help you, I can't think of a better person to be in contact with for the purpose of learning about GSDs and their history. Soak it up!



I do consider myself extremely blessed to have a person as nice as Carmen willing to help me on my learning journey. I guess it's a good thing that I have a good size bookshelf to put them on =)


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## carmspack

I am just the conduit --- the magazines are actually from Linda Shaw -- - . I am wondering if Bethany as we participate in her education, would play it forward and participate in the education of others on this forum. How can you do this. I can flip through some of the older issues and mark them with a book mark. Then if Bethany can scan them so that the pictures of these dogs from days gone by can be shared on the forum. There were some awesome dogs .


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## bethany.cole2013

carmspack said:


> I am just the conduit --- the magazines are actually from Linda Shaw -- - . I am wondering if Bethany as we participate in her education, would play it forward and participate in the education of others on this forum. How can you do this. I can flip through some of the older issues and mark them with a book mark. Then if Bethany can scan them so that the pictures of these dogs from days gone by can be shared on the forum. There were some awesome dogs .


*Most definitely! I wouldn't mind at all scanning the ones that you have bookmarked and posting them here for everyone to possibly learn from. I'm not greedy =) I'll share the knowledge that is also extended to me. *


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## Freestep

Bethany, you might want to consider joining the Facebook group

German Shepherd Dog Breeders


484 members

This is a group for responsible German Shepherd Dog owners and breeders. This is a place for good breeders to discuss t...he breed, as well as having the opportunity to network and help each other.


It is also a group where people can come to learn about responsible breeding and what the breed is all about. If you are interested in becoming a GSD breeder, ask questions, listen and learn from other breeders here.


 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/


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## bethany.cole2013

Freestep said:


> Bethany, you might want to consider joining the Facebook group
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Breeders
> 
> 
> 484 members
> 
> This is a group for responsible German Shepherd Dog owners and breeders. This is a place for good breeders to discuss t...he breed, as well as having the opportunity to network and help each other.
> 
> 
> It is also a group where people can come to learn about responsible breeding and what the breed is all about. If you are interested in becoming a GSD breeder, ask questions, listen and learn from other breeders here.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/


*I would join it if I had a facebook, but I fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) don't have Facebook. I'm close enough with my closest friends that I don't see any need in it lol. *


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## Khamari

I realize it has been years but I wonder if the OP ever got those magazines? I am in sort of the same situation as she was. I have some rudimentary knowledge but I am always trying to learn more. And those magazines sound awesome! Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


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## onyx'girl

I sure hope, if she did she is being a good steward with them. Carmen's generosity has been taken advantage of in the past. With the passing of Linda Shaw, these magazines are hopefully being treasured.


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## TEZPUR1976

bethany.cole2013 said:


> So, I really hope that I can post this without anyone chopping my head off...... Would it be an option for me to work with and talk with a breeder that is out of state? Any advice?


It is always good to listen to experienced people. But before you decide to actually do it, i would suggest to educate yourself sufficiently on k9 reproduction, and health issues during and post pregnancy. Eg. how do u know what time it is right to breed ur bitch? Carrying pregnancy safely is a huge responsibility. There are issues like pseudo pregnancy, fetal absorption. The bitch can suffer from anemia. If ur bitch develops serious health issues you lose the litter and even the bitch. What will u do if the bitch unfortunately dies after the litter is grounded? Can u take care of the litter? I don't mean to spoil ur enthusiasm, but breeding has many risks. It is both science and an art. Good luck with ur efforts


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