# Is it not an option for us? Reactive puppy in schutzhund?



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Bailey's dad/sire is IPO3 and has had a few litters for the MetPol. Both Bailey's sire's parents have a title (dad is IPO3, mum is IPO1). Bailey's mum's sire is also IPO3 - but neither her or her mum. and a few of bailey's siblings are going to be personal protection dogs. Not sure if that makes a difference.

He has a good temperment - not aggressive towards people, but not overly friendly (he's pretty neutral). He loves the ball, tug toys, and probably anything that moves. His basic obedience is good - we're working on getting him to do heel from a distance, we're at about 10ft and he'll run to my side and heel. His placement can be a little off sometimes, and he'll run to my right side or a bit wonky on my left, but generally good. He is reactive to other dogs however. It's not too bad, and generally we are able to get him to sit and wait while he's in his frenzy, but he won't look at me or anything like that (yet).

Before getting Bailey, we had thought about doing schutzhund and looked for some clubs. We ended up not finding any, so just decided he'd be a pet only. By the time we found a club/trainer, he was reactive, and we just focused on that. Now, he's 6 months, still reactive (but getting better). He's not a perfect puppy, but Schutzhund might be fun to do with him. It would generally just be for fun, and to work with him. I'm not looking for a scary, protection dog who no one can touch or go near but rather just a way to engage my dog and build a stronger bond with him. Of course, if he doesn't like it, we wouldn't do it.

I'm not sure if it'd be okay to start him now (as in a few months) or if it'd be best when we have his obedience down (or at least mostly) at 18m+. *Or should we not try at all? *

Would this make him a *liability *- are PP trained dogs more likely to bite unprovoked? We have a big family, and have young kids coming in and out all the time. As of now, he is great with them, but I wouldn't want that to change.

edit: i know it's a little bit random. someone at our dog park is a trainer (they do it for fun though), and said that Bailey would be good in a sport like IGP, so it just kind of brought it back up


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe discuss this with the trainers?


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

We are exactly in the same position. I’m still going to try. We’ve been working on reactivity a lot and it’s getting much better. The prong collar went on this week and it’s making an incredible difference in him understanding communication before he gets worked up. I had the discussion with the behaviourist and I will try to put a BH on him at the least then maybe go for tracking. We’re not sure the protection aspect will be a good choice for Django but we’ll see. Originally he was fearful and not confident - that no longer seems to be the problem which is good. Now he’s just being a bit of a jerk (it may have been a stronger word lol) and testing so we’re upping the training to include positive punishment. I’m also going to muzzle train starting this week. I think I just have a late bloomer. Is there a club you can visit now with him and see what they say even with his reactivity? My club is willing for us to come back.
Edit - I’m just hoping to do for fun for both of us. Not competitive.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It’s something else to train, not necessarily something that will prevent you from doing it. I will say it’s something you want to be 100% sure you fix before you start to trial. It’s not something that should stop you though.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Maybe discuss this with the trainers?


haha yeah, probably best 😅


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Go visit a few clubs and see. As an aside, though, most clubs aren't super excited about a member who is just there for the experience. Most clubs prefer to see people working toward titles and at least club trialing. It's not a sport you do just for fun, all three phases take a lot of time and training. 

As for aggression. It's complicated. You could say the training builds drive and aggression to some extent, but it also adds an enormous amount of control. I don't believe it makes a dog more dangerous, at all, in fact the opposite. The control and level of obedience makes the dog much safer.

However, you are building up the dog for protection work, even if people claim it's all a game, the dog does take it seriously - prey based or not the dog is learning to challenge "the man" and see him as an opponent. Which is why it's a breed test, and many breeds and dogs aren't up to that challenge. 

Best advice I have is visit some clubs and see what you think.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

cagal said:


> We are exactly in the same position. I’m still going to try. We’ve been working on reactivity a lot and it’s getting much better. The prong collar went on this week and it’s making an incredible difference in him understanding communication before he gets worked up. I had the discussion with the behaviourist and I will try to put a BH on him at the least then maybe go for tracking. We’re not sure the protection aspect will be a good choice for Django but we’ll see. Originally he was fearful and not confident - that no longer seems to be the problem which is good. Now he’s just being a bit of a jerk (it may have been a stronger word lol) and testing so we’re upping the training to include positive punishment. I’m also going to muzzle train starting this week. I think I just have a late bloomer. Is there a club you can visit now with him and see what they say even with his reactivity? My club is willing for us to come back.
> Edit - I’m just hoping to do for fun for both of us. Not competitive.


Thank you! I hope we're able to, I will definitely talk to the trainer and ask if we can visit x


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> It’s something else to train, not necessarily something that will prevent you from doing it. I will say it’s something you want to be 100% sure you fix before you start to trial. It’s not something that should stop you though.


ah thank you x


----------



## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Definitely discuss with the trainer. My dog is reactive but it’s almost gone (yay!) and we’re aiming to go for a BH this fall.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Muskeg said:


> Go visit a few clubs and see. As an aside, though, most clubs aren't super excited about a member who is just there for the experience. Most clubs prefer to see people working toward titles and at least club trialing. It's not a sport you do just for fun, all three phases take a lot of time and training.
> 
> As for aggression. It's complicated. You could say the training builds drive and aggression to some extent, but it also adds an enormous amount of control. I don't believe it makes a dog more dangerous, at all, in fact the opposite. The control and level of obedience makes the dog much safer.
> 
> ...


thank you. yes, i will visit some clubs and centers and see what i think.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

NadDog24 said:


> Definitely discuss with the trainer. My dog is reactive but it’s almost gone (yay!) and we’re aiming to go for a BH this fall.


ah that's amazing - congratulations! How old is your dog / how long did it take to get his reactivity on the low? x


----------



## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Baileyshuman said:


> ah that's amazing - congratulations! How old is your dog / how long did it take to get his reactivity on the low? x


She’s 20 months. We live out of town so getting over the reactivity took longer than it should’ve but we went into high gear earlier this month and now she doesn’t react.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Go visit a few clubs and see. As an aside, though, most clubs aren't super excited about a member who is just there for the experience. Most clubs prefer to see people working toward titles and at least club trialing. It's not a sport you do just for fun, all three phases take a lot of time and training.
> 
> As for aggression. It's complicated. You could say the training builds drive and aggression to some extent, but it also adds an enormous amount of control. I don't believe it makes a dog more dangerous, at all, in fact the opposite. The control and level of obedience makes the dog much safer.
> 
> ...


I said ‘for fun” but to clarify we are not aiming to compete beyond club level but would certainly put the work in. You have to be committed to even put a BH on a dog. But I think you should have a good time working with your dog. There are more relaxed clubs with beginners and there are super competitive clubs - hopefully OP finds a good fit.


----------



## 44eyes (May 17, 2021)

I take Danny to Schutzhund training already at 5 1/2 months. Schutzhund is far more than protection work and in my training directors eyes it comes last on the list of priorities. I don’t think he could in good conscience even start protection work until he’s at least 18 months. Plus our trainer insists that obedience has to come first and won’t work a dog in protection that won’t reliably listen to his handler. 

By the time Bailey starts with protection work in Schutzhund hopefully that reactivity will be resolved, especially if you’re working on it anyway. So that said I don’t think his reactivity will be a hindrance. If he’s having those issues he probably shouldn’t be doing protection work, but theres plenty he can do in Schutzhund in the meantime… obedience/form, tracking, etc.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

44eyes said:


> I take Danny to Schutzhund training already at 5 1/2 months. Schutzhund is far more than protection work and in my training directors eyes it comes last on the list of priorities. I don’t think he could in good conscience even start protection work until he’s at least 18 months. Plus our trainer insists that obedience has to come first and won’t work a dog in protection that won’t reliably listen to his handler.
> 
> By the time Bailey starts with protection work in Schutzhund hopefully that reactivity will be resolved, especially if you’re working on it anyway. So that said I don’t think his reactivity will be a hindrance. If he’s having those issues he probably shouldn’t be doing protection work, but theres plenty he can do in Schutzhund in the meantime… obedience/form, tracking, etc.


thank you. Yeah that definitely does make sense.

It is dog reactivity and it's because he wants to play - i'm not sure if that makes a difference. I definitely wouldn't want to start any protection work until he's a bit older anyway, so hopefully we can get the obedience down by then anyhow. I'll have to visit some clubs - I have looked at loads online, and the one that I'm thinking of seems really good. Definitely need to visit before hand to see if it is worth going now. £50/h and over an hour away so...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

have you ever corrected him for it? Reactivity from fear and reactivity from being a puppy butthead aren't the same thing. The first I handle with obedience and structure. The other I correct. Genetic dog aggression would get a correction and be handled with strict obedience as well. Neither will stop you from doing the sport. But you need to shut it down and not coddle the young dog. IME, it seems to show up around 5-6 months.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> have you ever corrected him for it? Reactivity from fear and reactivity from being a puppy butthead aren't the same thing. The first I handle with obedience and structure. The other I correct. Genetic dog aggression would get a correction and be handled with strict obedience as well. Neither will stop you from doing the sport. But you need to shut it down and not coddle the young dog. IME, it seems to show up around 5-6 months.


He gets both a verbal and leash correction (we are still using a flat collar, instead of a prong/martingale/e-collar). We also increase the distance if he continues to bark and lunge at the other dog, but if he is good (no barking, no pulling), we decrease the distance and he gets to meet the dog (provided the other owner allows it). If the owner doesn't allow it, we walk away. We're mostly able to get his attention, enough for a sit and possibly a "quiet". It's a long process, but I am seeing pretty good improvements.

Bailey's reactivity started as soon as we got home - the first time I noticed him was when I carried him into the vet at 10 weeks, and he barked as another dog passed. We've been working on it since then, but he was fully vaccinated at about 14/16 weeks. For a while, we avoided most dogs as we worked on obedience, but now he's getting a lot better, so are working around them a lot more. He'll be six months tomorrow.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First - your dog doesn't need to meet other dogs. If your dog meets another dog on the training or trial field - something has gone terribly wrong and believe me you do NOT want to have to explain to the other handler why you lost control of your dog. My dogs do not need to play with other dogs. They need to interact with me and be neutral around other dogs. They don't even have to like them. I don't care what furmommy I make angry in public when I tell them to get their dog away from mine. But I expect them to sit quietly or walk past them without issue. At 6 months old, that time to meet and greet other dogs is past. 

So you are correcting but you aren't giving direction? You can't correct reactivity. You can correct refusal to do a command. I use a nylon choke for this correction. It's about the only time I use that collar. Sit means sit. No means No. Not mostly able. It means shut up and sit. It should not be a long process. If you want to do IPO then you can not treat your dog like a general pet dog and have long processes to stop a reactive behavior. There are rules and structure. I would not put my dog on the field to trial with a reactive dog. I would not put my dog at risk. Training with one is exactly how I ended up with a full puncture wound in my leg and hundreds spent at a wound specialist. When I used my retired male as a paired dog for obedience in a trial last year, the judge pointed to the competitor and said "do NOT lose that dog" (and put my boy at risk). This is how important this is.

You do you. But that's the reality of the situation. You are best to find a good IPO trainer, have your dog evaluated and properly work on the reactivity. And that is thru obedience and engagement with you, not meeting other dogs.


----------

