# Easing the prey drive?



## Khan (Jul 19, 2011)

Can anyone give me some suggestions. I've been trying to find specifics on google but haven't had any luck - would very much appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

My problem is when we're on walks and we see cats she's putting us both in danger. Walking past them... Is doable. Not great, but I usually ignore the cat, don't let her pull and try to shift her focus as we walk past.

But if one darts out in front of us unxepectedly, well... To put it mildly, on one occasion one second we were walking and the next I was sailing along on the end of the leash behind her. She was on a check chain and it did absolutely nothing to deter her - and I'm not exactly light either. She'll also stalk and charge at birds on her leash, as if she just forgets she's attached once her prey drive kicks in. 

I think maybe she needs some more focus? Just not sure how to go about it. I've noticed she'll just walk where she assumes we're going if we've been somewhere before - not dominant, not dragging me, she'll just veer off and smack into my leg like she hasn't even seen me there. And she's often off in her own little world. 

After that I'm unsure. We're going to an obedience class in february to get her on track to do the agility classes when she's a little older and brush up on her current commands but I'm impatient . I'm relying on a halti headcollar temporarily because she'd run out in front of a car without a second thought, but it's a hassle. I'd rather just walk her on her webbing collar. 

She's 1 year 4 months old, and will leap into chase mode regardless of whether she's fresh or worn out.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I honestly think that the head halter is the worst possible temporary fix to your problem because it could cause serious injury to your dog. Imagine walking along nicely on a loose lead, then she spots a cat and takes off - hitting the end of the lead and snapping her head around. Ouch!

Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic article on her website, titled "The Problem with Head Halters" you may want to check out --> Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters

If you need a "quick fix" to prevent your dog from dragging you down the road when she sees a cat (or squirrel), a prong collar would be a much better - and less harmful - way to go because it does not cause her to bend her neck as a weird angle when she hits the end of the leash and you need little body weight or strength for it to correct and stop her.

As far as changing the behavior instead of a quick fix ...

Right now, when your dog sees a cat and takes off behind her, that's extremely rewarding for her and great fun. You can correct her from taking off by means of training collars but the real challenge is being more fun and more rewarding than chasing the cat.

Do you have a favorite toy that uses her prey drive in play? Like one of those stuffing-free furry toys that squeak? They're a lot like prey to most dogs because they flop around, they can shake them, they make noise. If you can get her attention with that, use that in your favor by engaging her to play with the toy if you come across a cat.

You mentioned you can walk past them if they don't suddenly dart out ... that would be the ideal time to engage the dog with the toy, when you have a cat just sitting somewhere. Make the toy interesting and reward the dog for focusing on you by playing with the toy. (Playing tug would be great for this, especially since you can do it while walking.)

You want her to associate seeing cat (prey) with playing with you (and your prey).

At least that's worked for me.


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## Khan (Jul 19, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> I honestly think that the head halter is the worst possible temporary fix to your problem because it could cause serious injury to your dog. Imagine walking along nicely on a loose lead, then she spots a cat and takes off - hitting the end of the lead and snapping her head around. Ouch!
> 
> Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic article on her website, titled "The Problem with Head Halters" you may want to check out --> Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters
> 
> ...



Prong collars are illegal here . I wouldn't use one anyway. 

I actually haven't had any incidents with her stalking or chasing in the halti. She walks at the heel so I'm guessing that the extra contact around her face keeps her more focused. I didn't get it to help with this, to be honest it was just something I noticed. We have a lot of dogs that are not under control here and she gets snappy and dominant when they come up to us - sometimes growling and barking. After one such incident where the dog was in the care of two children under five I was not about to take any chances because if she'd even brushed either one of the kids with her tail she would have been destroyed before I could blink. It's a tool I only use as a precaution in certain places, we just use our webbing collar at all other times so I can work with her.

Regardless I'm not after a quick fix. For any of her behaviour. I want a nice, well behaved dog that I can take anywhere. She's my first dog and I've messed up a fair few times but we're slowly getting there. 

I will try the tug rope idea when we see the cats, but I'm not sure if it will help with the actual darting out in front of us - is more of a split second automatic reaction, if it moves and it moves fast she's gone in the blink of an eye. As I mentioned in the first post check chain doesn't do a thing to deter her. I don't think even a prong collar would to be honest, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't notice it til after the adrenaline wore off. I'd prefer not to use training collars anyway if possible.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I have had success with a simple boneheaded technique, correcting and scalding the dog when she does that chase thing. Tuki has a strong prey drive and would do what you're describing when we're on the trail and a rabbit or squirrel jumps out of the bushes and along the trail. When she would do that, I would give a strong correction with the choker chain (check chain), and make her sit facing away from what she wanted to chase, and give her corrections for looking over her body at it (where the prey item ran).

It is tough to practice that since it's a fairly random event that one pops out and runs. But lately when this happens, she definitely focuses in on it, ears up, ready to chase, but she does not chase. Then to make it easy on her, I usually go back the other way for a bit so she's not tempted to follow the scent trail in that highly aroused state.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

You learn to control the dog, not the behavior. When you correct an innate behavior you cause a real conflict in the dog. Prey is genetic, and when you correct that, you correct something they were born to do. In order to prevent conflict that cause, you train to control the behavior, not eliminate it.

DFrost


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Joey has a strong prey drive. He's six years old and intact.

We adopted him about 7 months ago from a family member. He's trained, housebroken and we love him to death.

He's great in the house or backyard; listens to commands very well, until a dog, cat or squirrel gets in his sights.

If we could only slow down his prey drive to where he won't pull me or my husband into the next town!!


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

DFrost said:


> You learn to control the dog, not the behavior. When you correct an innate behavior you cause a real conflict in the dog. Prey is genetic, and when you correct that, you correct something they were born to do. In order to prevent conflict that cause, you train to control the behavior, not eliminate it.
> 
> DFrost


 :thumbup:my mia soft as she is has always had quite a strong prey drive, she CAN'T chase everything in sight only cause i use prongs. but just last night she caught a baby rabbit in our back yard. omg! she left it reluctantly(after i screamed for her to leave it) but still gaurding the poor maimed baby, lest we come and take it away!. somehow we got her in without her 'prey'. and had to put it to sleep humanely cuse she had managed to break its spine and paralyse it! so i really do not believe that a real drive can be 'driven' away, sorry!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In the Toronto Beaches, in a church basement , way back in the late 70's there was an obedience class run by Marjorie Parkinson , and her partner. This is where I met Jan Worthy-Armstrong who later became Sanhedrin (american show line) . 
We did obedience and tested it to the hilt . Every possible scenario to proof the dog . As DFrost said , you learn to control the dog, not the behaviour. When we did down stays or out of sights , the instructor would allow his (seasoned and blase) cat to stroll freely in the facility. Each student had focus and control and the dog respected the authority . Sometimes the instructor would bring balloons and let them jet around the room squealing, bring remote control cars and have a car do a circle around a dog , bounce a rubber ball, tease the dog. It was great . The dog was shown what was expected and there was follow through.
The next time I saw this level of control was at my French Ring Club - where the dogs were worked off lead, no collar , with farm cats running through the field where we were training.

Do standard obedience and be consistent in what behaviour you allow .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> In the Toronto Beaches, in a church basement , way back in the late 70's there was an obedience class run by Marjorie Parkinson , and her partner. This is where I met Jan Worthy-Armstrong who later became Sanhedrin (american show line) .
> We did obedience and tested it to the hilt . Every possible scenario to proof the dog . As DFrost said , you learn to control the dog, not the behaviour. When we did down stays or out of sights , the instructor would allow his (seasoned and blase) cat to stroll freely in the facility. Each student had focus and control and the dog respected the authority . Sometimes the instructor would bring balloons and let them jet around the room squealing, bring remote control cars and have a car do a circle around a dog , bounce a rubber ball, tease the dog. It was great . The dog was shown what was expected and there was follow through.
> The next time I saw this level of control was at my French Ring Club - where the dogs were worked off lead, no collar , with farm cats running through the field where we were training.
> 
> ...


I always read this, and understand the standard obedience part.
But what about the "allowing behaviors" part.
Am I pulling the dog away from the scenario when the undesireable behavior happens? Am I correcting the dog for the behavior with a pop on the leash? Am I training a replacement behavior?
I guess the question applies to more than just controlling prey drive, and more to controlling the whole dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Khan said:


> Prong collars are illegal here .


Doncha just love it when idiot politicians outlaw something they know fek-all about, simply because it looks ugly and they don't understand it?  

"Don't use prong collars, which are highly effective and don't cause damage to the neck; they're too ugly. We'd rather you use choke chains, which have a _500 x higher_ rate of trachea damage than prongs, or head harnesses, which are capable of damaging the spine. But they look nicer and that's what counts."


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Is there a difference between prey drive and a dog actually injuring and/or killing the prey? My older male has very high prey drive, but shows no desire to harm or kill the animal. Once he gets the prey animal, he wants to play with it. Worst case scenario is he will nip it in the rear to try to get it to run again. 

On the other hand he must "kill" lawn mowers and remote controlled cars.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

AbbyK9 said:


> I honestly think that the head halter is the worst possible temporary fix to your problem because it could cause serious injury to your dog. Imagine walking along nicely on a loose lead, then she spots a cat and takes off - hitting the end of the lead and snapping her head around. Ouch!
> 
> Suzanne Clothier has a fantastic article on her website, titled "The Problem with Head Halters" you may want to check out --> Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - The Problems With Head Halters


Sorry, but this is complete and utter poop. I have used these for years and my students have used them and no one has ever had their dog become "seriously injured". I've known several dozen who have been seriously injured by a choke or prong collar. There is far more scientific evidence that choke chains cause serious injuries to a dog's jugular vein by thinning the walls and crushed tracheas from the constant tension around the neck. I've known of a few cases of prong collars actually embedding in a dogs neck with hard corrections. Have witnessed a few burned necks from overuse of shock collars. 

NOT once has anyone ever come to me and said "gee, my dog has whiplash from using a head halter". Of course, if anyone abuses a tool, they can cause injury to their dog but head halters are the safest way to go, IMHO.

I love she described a lab who became so depressed over wearing a head halter that she wouldn't engage with the trainer. I've also, NEVER, had this happen. 

Phooey!


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Doncha just love it when idiot politicians outlaw something they know fek-all about, simply because it looks ugly and they don't understand it?
> 
> "Don't use prong collars, which are highly effective and don't cause damage to the neck; they're too ugly. We'd rather you use choke chains, which have a _500 x higher_ rate of trachea damage than prongs, or head harnesses, which are capable of damaging the spine. But they look nicer and that's what counts."


 i'm with you here!. i mistakenly used to use a choke chain on my 'puller' mia, when one day it struck me--' '' at this rate she continues to pull anyway and i continue to yank, one day i'm going to choke her badly!!!'' switched to prongs, love them, only now after 3years SLOWLY trying to wean myself from using them as crutches,


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> Sorry, but this is complete and utter poop. I have used these for years and my students have used them and no one has ever had their dog become "seriously injured". I've known several dozen who have been seriously injured by a choke or prong collar. There is far more scientific evidence that choke chains cause serious injuries to a dog's jugular vein by thinning the walls and crushed tracheas from the constant tension around the neck. I've known of a few cases of prong collars actually embedding in a dogs neck with hard corrections. Have witnessed a few burned necks from overuse of shock collars.
> 
> NOT once has anyone ever come to me and said "gee, my dog has whiplash from using a head halter". Of course, if anyone abuses a tool, they can cause injury to their dog but head halters are the safest way to go, IMHO.
> 
> ...


Yes that is your experience and other people have different experiences we all see the world in our own rose coloured glasses.

I would not recommend a head halter in this situation for the reason already stated. I agree it is ridiculous that choke collars are allowed but prong collars are not. What about switching to something like a mendota collar with a stopper on it. At least it would be a little better than the choke chain.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I would work to train a replacement behavior. Maybe a sit with a toy for a reward. Go to the place where your dog sees the "prey" most often. Practice "sit" and reward with a ball or toy or tug. Do it often so that the dog learns to expect the toy as a reward for sitting. If you see a ''prey", even if the dog sees it first, ask the dog to sit and reward the behavior with play. It will take time, and you will have to be patient, but it can work.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> Sorry, but this is complete and utter poop. I have used these for years and my students have used them and no one has ever had their dog become "seriously injured". I've known several dozen who have been seriously injured by a choke or prong collar. There is far more scientific evidence that choke chains cause serious injuries to a dog's jugular vein by thinning the walls and crushed tracheas from the constant tension around the neck. I've known of a few cases of prong collars actually embedding in a dogs neck with hard corrections. Have witnessed a few burned necks from overuse of shock collars.
> 
> NOT once has anyone ever come to me and said "gee, my dog has whiplash from using a head halter". Of course, if anyone abuses a tool, they can cause injury to their dog but head halters are the safest way to go, IMHO.
> 
> ...


You cannot burn anything with an ecollar. You were mistaken in what you saw. I've seen a prong cut a neck, but it was the action of the martingale, not the prongs


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> You cannot burn anything with an ecollar. You were mistaken in what you saw. I've seen a prong cut a neck, but it was the action of the martingale, not the prongs


No, that's definitely what I saw. I was at the vet waiting for my appt with my dogs for their vaccines. My vet pulled me into a room to show me (she refers me out) what had happened to the dog. 

A family brought their dog in on an emergency due to the burns. The owner admitted that her 4 year old had gotten ahold of the remote while she was in the basement doing laundry (not supervising her child and not being able to fully hear what was happening due to the noise of the washer and dryer), and the kid kept hitting the button over and over. The dog had been screaming, flopping around, deficated and urinated on itself while in the kennel. She heard the commotion, went upstairs and found her kid standing in front of the dog's crate, pressing the button. She pulled the dog out of the crate, took the collar off and saw the burns. She rushed the dog right in because it was lethargic and limp. The burn was disgusting. It looked like vampire bite. There wasn't any blood but the skin looked "cooked". It was gross.

They had to sedate the dog to clean up the wound as the dog was terrified. It was a beagle. They had been using the collar as a way to keep the dog from barking. Not a bark collar but an actual E-collar. 


Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean someone else hasn't and doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I know what I have experienced. You can cause damage with any tool if it's misused.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

E-collars most definitely can cause burns if used inappropriately. I'd take a prong collar over a choke chain any day. I hate head collars; I'd much rather use an easy walk harness or a prong.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Any tool can be abused....no question! But common sense has to prevail over emotional sense. There are tens of thousands of prong collars used every day, and there are many remote collars used every day without all these horror results. The odds of halter hurting a dog is remote also. Its like cars...should we stop driving because you have a chance of fatality when you get behind the wheel. Noooo because with all of the millions and millions of people driving daily....the probability is not there. 
Its allright for people to have thier preferences, but to malign another way because of infrequent extreme instances is counterproductive in my opinion.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

carmen, your trainer sounds like one I used alot with my dogs

We used to call it the "torture" session dogs had to sit or down, trainer would just "torture' them with all kinds of things, food they couldn't touch, kitties, throwing balls in front of their faces, yelling for them to 'come' when they had to listen to US to stay.

I MISS those type of classes, I learned so much in those classes, and the dogs ended up being top notch

With that said, Masi has more 'play' drive than 'prey' drive, but if we encounter a crazy squirrel for example, I usually have her sit or down, and work on enforcing a good stay. You don't need to get jerked around or put up with it, standing still and using the opportunity to train works with patience and perseverance


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> The burn was disgusting. It looked like vampire bite. There wasn't any blood but the skin looked "cooked". It was gross.


A vampire bite! What does a vampire bite look like? I didn't know that vampires could burn flesh?

I wouldn't say that one incident and diagnoses is enough to say it was actually a burn and not a pressure sore or something. Of course the dog was traumatized but that doesn't prove it was a burn. So no reason to go around using this story to prove anything it was obviously a bad situation all around. Sounds like the type of people that should not be allowed to have pets.

I have injured myself and gone to the doctor and had doctors tell me my wound looked like something totally different than what it actually was so people can very easily make mistakes.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

Clyde said:


> A vampire bite! What does a vampire bite look like? I didn't know that vampires could burn flesh?
> 
> I wouldn't say that one incident and diagnoses is enough to say it was actually a burn and not a pressure sore or something. Of course the dog was traumatized but that doesn't prove it was a burn. So no reason to go around using this story to prove anything it was obviously a bad situation all around. Sounds like the type of people that should not be allowed to have pets.
> 
> I have injured myself and gone to the doctor and had doctors tell me my wound looked like something totally different than what it actually was so people can very easily make mistakes.


Then your doctor wasn't very bright. A vampire bite was 2 distinct burn marks on the neck that were very visable when the area was shaved. They were burns, they looked like burns, they smelled like burnt flesh! The prongs from the collar matched up with the exact spacing. They weren't pressure wounds or what ever else you want to call them, they WERE burns. YES I smelled them because I was instructed to do so.

Listen, I've said what I'm going to say on the matter. I know what my experience is. I was proving a point with this particular case that a shock collar can burn a dog because someone said it couldn't happen. I didn't say that it happens every day with the millions being used. The point was that it CAN happen. 

I've used shock, prong, choke, head halters, nylon collars, harnesses.. blah blah blah. I've used them all, I don't discriminate. I was making a point for those who think that these tools are "completely safe". 

I can use what ever story from an experience that I have in order to prove a point so  and you're not the boss of me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

To the OP, I'd suggest that you use an Ecollar and my methods to train your dog to recall and sit. Don't just do one or the other. I can go into the specific reasons for this last part if you'd like to hear it. 

Then you can control your dog's behavior. To go along with what David said ... You can't control what's in your dog's head or heart. But you certainly CAN control his behavior. 

If these don't give you sufficient control then I'd suggest adding in the Crittering protocol. Instructions for all of these things are on my site.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chance&Reno said:


> Sorry, but this is complete and utter poop. I have used these for years and my students have used them and no one has ever had their dog become "seriously injured". I've known several dozen who have been seriously injured by a choke or prong collar. * There is far more scientific evidence that choke chains cause serious injuries to a dog's jugular vein by thinning the walls and crushed tracheas from the constant tension around the neck. * [Emphasis Added]


 
Talk about _"complete and utter poop."_ There is NO PROOF of injury from choke collars. There's a study that discusses it but that came from autopsies following naturally-occurring-death, and was nothing but conjecture. 




Chance&Reno said:


> I've known of a few cases of prong collars actually embedding in a dogs neck with hard corrections.


 

I'll place this in the same category. This can happen if the collar is not properly adjusted. If it is, it can't. 




Chance&Reno said:


> Have witnessed a few burned necks from overuse of shock collars.


 
Now we're back to _"COMPLETE AND UTTER POOP!"_ No modern Ecollar has enough power to cause burns from the current they produce. It's simply against the laws of physics. 




Chance&Reno said:


> NOT once has anyone ever come to me and said "gee, my dog has whiplash from using a head halter". Of course, if anyone abuses a tool, they can cause injury to their dog but head halters are the safest way to go, IMHO.


 
I've spoke to many people who report this kind of issues with these halters. I've also seen open sores cause by them rubbing against the dog's face and have seen dogs who rubbed themselves raw, trying to remove them. 




Chance&Reno said:


> I love she described a lab who became so depressed over wearing a head halter that she wouldn't engage with the trainer. I've also, NEVER, had this happen.


 
I've seen instant suppression of behaviors when a head halter was applied. When you get this, you know that the dog is having an issue with the equipment.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chance&Reno said:


> No, that's definitely what I saw. I was at the vet waiting for my appt with my dogs for their vaccines. My vet pulled me into a room to show me (she refers me out) what had happened to the dog.
> 
> A family brought their dog in on an emergency due to the burns. The owner admitted that her 4 year old had gotten ahold of the remote while she was in the basement doing laundry (not supervising her child and not being able to fully hear what was happening due to the noise of the washer and dryer), and the kid kept hitting the button over and over. The dog had been screaming, flopping around, deficated and urinated on itself while in the kennel. She heard the commotion, went upstairs and found her kid standing in front of the dog's crate, pressing the button. She pulled the dog out of the crate, took the collar off and saw the burns. She rushed the dog right in because it was lethargic and limp. The burn was disgusting. It looked like vampire bite. There wasn't any blood but the skin looked "cooked". It was gross.


Sorry, still impossible, even with this abuse happening. What can happen is that if the collar is left on for too long either (or both) friction sores and pressure necrosis can occur. These will look like burns (technically a friction sore is a burn – but it has nothing to do with the current) upon cursory examination. It takes quite a bit more for an examination to reveal whether the marks are from current or from friction. 

If this was possible then dogs that get dozens, sometimes hundreds of stim during training sessions would ALL be getting burns. Getting huge numbers of stims happens quite frequently with competition dogs of all kinds and many working dogs. Yet, they aren't reporting burns of any kind. 

It's likely that the Ecollar was either left on for too long, was either too tight or too loose and that's what caused the marks you saw. Ecollars "causing burns from their current" is against the laws of physics. They just don't have enough power. 



Chance&Reno said:


> Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean someone else hasn't and doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I know what I have experienced.


If this was possible, it would be occurring with great regularity and it would have shown up in any of the dozens of anti-Ecollar studies that have been done. Yet NOT ONE OF THEM has ever reported the slightest bit of physical damage that has occurred with these tools. People who oppose these tools would be shouting these findings to the heavens. The Schilder study quotes Klein, _"Although shocks may be painful, this does not imply that there is physical damage. * A recent report on possible damage by the use of shock collars provides no evidence for physical damage and states that this is even unlikely"*_ Schalke reports, _"some authors stress the advantage of these instruments, claiming that their application * does not cause any physical injury."*_ 

Since you disagree, please show us a scientific study that support your statement that Ecollars can cause burns. 



Chance&Reno said:


> You can cause damage with any tool if it's misused.


That's true. However it's impossible for modern Ecollars to cause burns from the current they produce.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Verivus said:


> E-collars most definitely can cause burns if used inappropriately. I'd take a prong collar over a choke chain any day. I hate head collars; I'd much rather use an easy walk harness or a prong.


Since you have taken this urban legend as fact I'll ask you to supply the scientific studies to support your statement. If this was happening, as the two of you claim, there'd be THOUSANDs of dogs with burns from Ecollar uses. Yet there aren't. EVERY dog who received large numbers of stims would be showing evidence to support these claims. Yet, again, there aren't.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chance&Reno said:


> Then your doctor wasn't very bright.


WOW! Let's try to stay polite and professional OK? It's interesting that Clyde's doctor _"wasn't very bright."_ but your vet has all the answers! Except that your vet's answer is not supported BY EVEN ONE SCIENTIFIC STUDY. 



Chance&Reno said:


> A vampire bite was 2 distinct burn marks on the neck that were very visable when the area was shaved.


Perhaps you’ve been watching too much _True Blood? _ lol. There's no such thing as vampires. While there are vampire bats, they don't puncture the skin as with the vampires of legend, rather they make a small incision and lap up the blood that drips from it. This is just another attempt by someone to use emotional language to steer people away from Ecollars. 



Chance&Reno said:


> They were burns, they looked like burns, they smelled like burnt flesh! The prongs from the collar matched up with the exact spacing. They weren't pressure wounds or what ever else you want to call them, they WERE burns. YES I smelled them because I was instructed to do so.


Friction sores ARE burns. They look like burns and they smell like them. They result from having the collars on for too long, too tightly or too loosely. AGAIN, the laws of physics makes it IMPOSSIBLE for any modern Ecollar to cause burns from the current they produce. 



Chance&Reno said:


> Listen, I've said what I'm going to say on the matter. I know what my experience is.


Your experience does not prove a thing. It serves only to support your opinion. An opinion, BTW, that HAS NEVER been supported by any scientific study. IN FACT they report EXACTLY the opposite of what you claim. 



Chance&Reno said:


> I was proving a point with this particular case that a shock collar can burn a dog because someone said it couldn't happen. I didn't say that it happens every day with the millions being used. The point was that it CAN happen.


Common sense tells us that as you say, _"with the millions being used ... every day"_ that there would be thousands of dogs showing the burns that you claim _"CAN happen."_ Yet no such evidence exists. 



Chance&Reno said:


> I've used shock, prong, choke, head halters, nylon collars, harnesses.. blah blah blah. I've used them all, I don't discriminate. I was making a point for those who think that these tools are "completely safe".


There's no such thing as a tool that's _"completely safe."_ But the fact remains, No modern Ecollar can cause burns from the current that they produce. 



Chance&Reno said:


> I can use what ever story from an experience that I have in order to prove a point so and you're not the boss of me.


An anecdote doesn't _"prove a point."_ I eagerly away you showing us scientific studies that support your claim.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lou, what you are pointing out is my experience also....and I have been around hundreds of people who use the E collar. Anything can be abused, but sometimes stories take on a life of their own. I remember when I was first introduced to prong collar in late sixties from Germany. OMG, the AKC obedience people thought it was the cruelest thing on the planet....and the stories were even better. Twenty five years later, 3/4 of the dog training community with working dogs uses this collar. Same collar as before, but now people are more educated and they don't listen to the scaremongers anymore. LOL


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> WOW! Let's try to stay polite and professional OK? It's interesting that Clyde's doctor _"wasn't very bright."_ but your vet has all the answers! Except that your vet's answer is not supported BY EVEN ONE SCIENTIFIC STUDY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did I say that this was within the last 15 years? NOPE.. I didn't tell you when it happened. 
I don't watch tv shows like the one you described above. I was trying to explain WHAT the injury looked like. 

People who use shock collars will defend them to the death, even if they make no sense with their argument. I told you, I'm not against them at all, I'm not offering scientific evidence saying that they are "100% safe", all I am saying is that I've WITNESSED a burn from one. You say it CAN'T happen, and I don't believe you. Anytime you run electricity through a living being, they risk the chance of being burned. My husband is an electrician, are you telling me that he CAN'T ever suffer serious burns from Low voltage? 
I'm not here debating the use of a collar or your methods. I am, however, debating the safety of the tool, itself.
Lou, you may be a genious when it comes to what you do, but we will agree to disagree on this one.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chance&Reno said:


> Did I say that this was within the last 15 years? NOPE.. I didn't tell you when it happened.


Not sure where the 15 year figure comes from. I'd go back 15 years when I say that no _ modern _ Ecollar can cause a burn. 



Chance&Reno said:


> I don't watch tv shows like the one you described above. I was trying to explain WHAT the injury looked like.


If you're saying that the injury "looked like a burn," I can accept that. But I don't think that you are. I'm pretty sure that you're saying that it was a burn. 



Chance&Reno said:


> People who use shock collars will defend them to the death, even if they make no sense with their argument.


Perhaps some will. I'm not one of them. Ecollars have many shortcomings. But causing burns is not among them. 



Chance&Reno said:


> I told you, I'm not against them at all, I'm not offering scientific evidence saying that they are "100% safe", all I am saying is that I've WITNESSED a burn from one. You say it CAN'T happen, and I don't believe you.


I'd say that you WITNESSED what _looked like a burn. _ I'd bet that you do not have the medical expertise to diagnosis a burn and to differentiate a friction burn from an electrical burn from pressure necrosis. It could not have been an electrical burn as you claim, a burn due to the current that the Ecollar put out, *because that is impossible. * I don't give two hoots if you believe me or not, the physics says it can't happen and I agree with the physics rather than your uneducated powers of observation. Now..... if you are an MD with expertise in diagnosing burns, please, feel free to correct me. 

I notice that you DID NOT produce a single scientific study to support your premise that an Ecollar can produce burns. In fact, when they mention injuries, universally they say that they CAN NOT produce injuries of any kind. HOWEVER, many tools that are used in dog training CAN cause physical injuries. 



Chance&Reno said:


> Anytime you run electricity through a living being, they risk the chance of being burned.


Nonsense. Not at the levels or current that an Ecollar is capable of. 



Chance&Reno said:


> My husband is an electrician, are you telling me that he CAN'T ever suffer serious burns from Low voltage?


If the amperage, voltage and time of the current flow is as low as that produced by an Ecollar, no, he can't suffer serious burns. Ask him, I'm sure that he'll confirm what I've just said. 

Thousands of dogs get thousand of stims every day. If they were being burned, we'd have heard about it. If burns were possible, the anti-Ecollar folks would be shouting about it from every rooftop. But they're not. You CAN get injuries that RESEMBLE burns from having the strap improperly adjusted, but burns as a result of the electrical current are not possible. 



Chance&Reno said:


> Lou, you may be a genious when it comes to what you do, but we will agree to disagree on this one.


I'm just a guy who knows a few things. One of them is that it's impossible for a modern Ecollar to cause burns from the current they produce.


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