# How Would Your Advice Vary Based On Pedigree?



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

There was a recent thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/167356-opinion-bloodlines-pedigree.html ) in which someone asked for information on their dogs lines, and it got into advice on how to handle a dogs behavior.

People were saying that the breeding was strong and giving advice on how to handle their rowdy dog. While I do not disagree with any of the advice given, it seems like most of it was good advice, period--regardless of what the pedigree was. There wasn't a lot of explanation as to what in the pedigree made is so "strong," which I think would have been helpful considering the sub-forum it was in.

So, if someone was to come to you with the following story:
_"I found her on Hoobly when I was looking for GSD. I had a white GSD (Skye)for 16 years (not registered, so i have no idea on her lineage, pretty sure it wasn't working lines though) _
_I had the pick from the females in the litter since i was the first one to be interested in a female and it was between Dooney and another one- Dooney picked me at 4 weeks, never left me and just looked at me the whole time. I asked the breeder if she would be good for just a house dog and she said she would be good, but that she would be a great schutzhund dog too if i decided to go there. there was only one female she didn't recommend for me- but she was all black and i didn't want a black one anyway. She was one of 11 puppies and only 2 of the litter are going into Schutzhund (her one brother and Dooney used to chase the flirt pole the most out of the litter- i am still in touch with that brother and we have playdates about once a month) _
_She is a very good smart dog- I am having issues with her energy level and being bored in the crate (she ate the bedroom carpet in attempt to get out yesterday- trying to bring her to reputable dog daycare/training place she is there today) she is good with my cats and my 3 year old nephew) she is dominant (so was Skye) so we work on that constantly, I am definitely the alpha and she knows it. _
_She plays with our neighbors golden very well. We do play chase in the house and that is where i can definitely see her breeding- I don't know much about Schutzhund but i have seen where the dogs have to "hold" someone to one spot without biting- she does that to me quite well while playing. And she shadows me very well. _
_I don't think someone with NO GSD experience should get a working line pup- but i think i have enough experience with them and i wanted quality this time- Skye had pretty bad hips and I didn't want to deal with that again- at least wanted a dog with a smaller chance of getting bad hips._
_all in all she is an excellent dog- just still going through puppy phases. I had thought about getting her into tracking- but after i saw what all goes into that, i just won't have the time, between work and my horse i just don't have THAT much time. "_

How would your advice vary with the following 3 mating tests, and WHY based on the dogs in the pedigree? I completely made up 2 of the 3 of these and don't believe they are matings that have ever actually happened, so no worry in insulting a particular breeders pairing since they are hypothetical. (I did put one together for a particular reason, so I'll be interested to hear responses). For fun, the third is my own dog Medo and since it's not my story I won't be offended 

1. Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

2. Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

3. Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey, and why not...for good measure I'll add a 4th in there of ASL since I have the others covered. Really clueless on these lines, so it was a complete "pick 2 dogs" scenario.

4. Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

In my experience, training is based on what shows in the dog's behavior. Not what the pedigree hints at. It is just good training to push certain buttons lightly at first until you know what you have to work with.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In order to intelligently answer this question, I would think you would have to have indepth knowledge of each of the lines in the matings.
opcorn:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Uniballer said:


> In my experience, training is based on what shows in the dog's behavior. Not what the pedigree hints at. It is just good training to push certain buttons lightly at first until you know what you have to work with.


OK, you've been given the dog's behavior and you've been given the hypothetical pedigree. Would your training advice vary on each one or be the same?



cliffson1 said:


> In order to intelligently answer this question, I would think you would have to have indepth knowledge of each of the lines in the matings.
> opcorn:


Hmmmmm....I wonder if there is anyone in this thread who has already posted who might have that knowledge??? Hehehe


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Training needs to be based on the dog. Period. Not a piece of paper.

Pedigrees can be useful when selecting a dog as they can help predict the traits the dog will have. But even then this is when shopping breedings or young pups who aren't developed enough to evaluate yet. Once the dog is old enough to show what he is, look at the dog, not the paper.

The only time I would utilize a pedigree in any training situation would be if the dog is exhibiting a behavior that can have multiple root causes and for some reason it's not clear in watching the dog which of those causes is at work. Then looking at the pedigree may help answer that question and provide guidance in addressing the issue. So while it *may* be helpful in understanding certain behaviors in a dog, that's about it. Regardless of what the paper says, the dog is who he is and who he is determines how he should be handled in training.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSDElsa said:


> OK, you've been given the dog's behavior and you've been given the hypothetical pedigree. Would your training advice vary on each one or be the same?


In that case, the pedigree could be useful because the dog can't be seen. And a description of a behavior on the internet is typically not complete, and in many cases not even correct and what the owner assumes is going on is actually very different from what is really going on. So yes, when working with very limited information and being unable to see the dog itself, knowning the probability of certain traits being present in the dog vs not can help diagnose waht is really going on. Particularly in a situation where there are a variety of similar behaviors that can mean very different things and the people who can see the dog don't have the knowledge and experience to see the subtle differences between them to know what is really happening, knowing what the pedigree contains can help narrow it down to the most likely one based on what the pedigree would predict. 

But frankly, I think trying to give training and behavioral advice via the internet or any other medium where the advisor can't see the dog and can only go by what the owner is saying about the dog... which may or may not be even remotely accurate... is naturally problematic and sometimes downright dangerous.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Training needs to be based on the dog. Period. Not a piece of paper.
> 
> Pedigrees can be useful when selecting a dog as they can help predict the traits the dog will have. But even then this is when shopping breedings or young pups who aren't developed enough to evaluate yet. Once the dog is old enough to show what he is, look at the dog, not the paper.
> 
> The only time I would utilize a pedigree in any training situation would be if the dog is exhibiting a behavior that can have multiple root causes and for some reason it's not clear in watching the dog which of those causes is at work. Then looking at the pedigree may help answer that question and provide guidance in addressing the issue. So while it *may* be helpful in understanding certain behaviors in a dog, that's about it. Regardless of what the paper says, the dog is who he is and who he is determines how he should be handled in training.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Based on the post you copied, in that case you train the dog, not the pedigree. Pedigree tells us potential and gives us an idea about how a puppy *MAY* turn out or how a dog *MIGHT* produce. Once you have the actual dog and are dealing with behavioral issues then the pedigree really doesn't matter.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

lhczth said:


> Based on the post you copied, in that case you train the dog, not the pedigree. Pedigree tells us potential and gives us an idea about how a puppy *MAY* turn out or how a dog *MIGHT* produce. Once you have the actual dog and are dealing with behavioral issues then the pedigree really doesn't matter.


 
:thumbup: Exactly!!!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I must confess to a bit of prejudice on my part, though. I'm not going to think that high-drive and dominance is really the most likely problem in a show dog, for example. Not that it doesn't happen--because it certainly can! It's just a lot less common and most often happens with weak or inexperienced handlers. Although I know ASL dogs with good drive (and I've titled one with great nerves and hardness), it's far more common that these dogs are nervous and need more socialization; they also seem to go through more-dramatic fear periods.

If I read that and saw that the person had a German show lines dog, I'd think that the biggest problem is that the dog is probably very unfocused and a bit hyper (scattered and high energy). I'd suggest finding a good local trainer to do something different to challenge the dog's brain and help her focus more, to add more exercise that isn't ball play, and to worry less about dominance and more about forging a working relationship.

If the same description came from someone with an ASL dog, I'd be thinking "I wonder if what you are seeing is drive or hyperactivity?" and I'd suggest not playing chase in the house but do more socializing. Worry less about dominance and more about establishing a bond of mutual respect. Also look into some local trainers and classes to get the dog out and about and intellectually stimulated.

If it's an WL pedigree, I'd say find some local trainers and start working on some high-energy sports/fun activities like dock dogs or herding. Do more to exercise your dog that isn't also increasing drive or is only tiring your dog out through drivework (that is, find something other than playing ball to help exercise your dog). Work on using the drive to start teaching obedience for the reward--training in drive, work on capping/controlling/using the drive. Don't play chase in the house. Worry less about dominance and more about having a good relationship where you are respected as controlling the "good things in life." Check out local trainers and see if there's anyone good in the area working with high-drive dogs--someone who is very competitive in agility or herding or dock dogs or flyball.

In the end, the advice doesn't vary that much. The specific focus of the advice might vary somewhat. 

And there is, also, a very big element of "don't tell someone to do anything extreme on the internet because you don't really know what is happening." So, training advice from a distance is almost always going to be to try to find someone local who has experience with your type of dog to help out while actually seeing the dog and what is happening right there in the dog-handler interactions.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with you all about training the dog not the pedigree, but darn it I want to play a fun game!

Throw a twist...just tell what you'd think the what pedg=igree most closely matches those problems. No peaking at the other thread!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Once you have the actual dog and are dealing with behavioral issues then the pedigree really doesn't matter

xxxxxxxxxxxx that is what I was saying . She had the dog. The pedigree no longer mattered . She had to deal with the issues which were presenting themselves.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Once you have the actual dog and are dealing with behavioral issues then the pedigree really doesn't matter
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxx that is what I was saying . She had the dog. The pedigree no longer mattered . She had to deal with the issues which were presenting themselves.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


:thinking: I'm pretty sure that's not how that thread went down, but OK.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Nope, though I think at least one person did try to make that point. The pedigree becomes moot once one is dealing with a behavior issue and you really can't diagnose a behavior issue without actually seeing the dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

So if pedigree doesn't matter when a behavioral issue raises its head, would you give identical training advice to different breeds? Say, if we have two different dogs barking aggressively at the mailman. One is an Italian Greyhound. The other is a Black Russian Terrier. Would the training approach be exactly the same?

I have to say, I use very different training approaches with my GSD and my Akbash dog, should they exhibit the same behavior. They are polar opposites and their motivations are very different. For example, if my Akbash is barking at something, I have to go out there, tell him he's a good boy and thank him for letting me know something's up. Then he is satisfied that he's done his job in alerting me, and stops barking. If I were to do that with my GSD, she'd think I am praising her for barking, and it would encourage her to KEEP barking.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Is that based on two different breeds or two different dogs who are motivated by different things?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Is that based on two different breeds or two different dogs who are motivated by different things?


I would say that different breeds tend to have different motivations. Both my GSD and my Akbash are very typical of their respective breeds.

Could it be true of different bloodlines within the same breed?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Of course, but you still have to look at the dog and deal with the dog itself.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Of course, but you still have to look at the dog and deal with the dog itself.


Right, but the question was "how would your advice vary based on pedigree"?

Of course you have to look at the individual dog. But knowing what genetic temperament/behavioral aspects may exist in the dog, you may be able to better understand his motivation, and fine-tune your training techniques. Anyway, that's my two cents.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my very first question on page one of the thread about the bloodlines and pedigree was 

" can you tell us what the dogs behaviour is like now."

and I was criticized . Later I said on page two 

" The pedigree is good but you are not interacting with the piece of paper. You are dealing with the needs , that this living dog requires "

then to start this particular thread " it got into advice on how to handle a dogs behavior."

All because I felt it was important as Lisa said 

" Once you have the actual dog and are dealing with behavioral issues then the pedigree really doesn't matter".

Basically advice may vary based on pedigree if you know that you may have a dog which is slow to mature . You have to get a feel for the animal . You proceed with things that the dog is ready to take on . 

too late - and early morning -
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

carmspack said:


> my very first question on page one of the thread about the bloodlines and pedigree was
> 
> " can you tell us what the dogs behaviour is like now."
> 
> ...


Yes, you and some other do think it's important to see the pedigree when asked about behavioral issues. I've seen several requests for pedigrees to be posted for analysis. So, here's the chance to show why that is important in different circumstances in advice that may be given based on said pedigree analysis. 

No need to twist the other thread or even bring the other thread in beyond the dog's temperment descirption...everyone is capable of clicking on that link and reading for themselves. 

This is simply a chance for people that call for the pedigrees when faced with behavioral issues, or use the pedigree when talking about behavioral issues to educate us on why that is important.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think people ask for the pedigree more out of curiosity than the real ability to spot a problem based on the pedigree. Even if they do the latter they still must train the dog and not the papers. 

If you came to me with a dog with issues I would not first ask for the pedigree. As a breeder I might ask for educational purposes. You do see trends at times coming from certain crosses or dogs, but I still look at those things through the eyes of a breeder and not how I would deal with a behavioral issue (which is what was used in the original post). 

Say you have a client come to you with a young adolescent male that has grumbled at the owner a few times. You look at the papers and note the dog has Crok (a dog often purported for producing handler aggression). You mention this to the handler who now instead of becoming a strong leader becomes tentative and nervous about handling the dog. The dog becomes even more difficult for this person and eventually bites them. Did the dog bite the handler because he has Crok in his pedigree or because the handler did not become the strong leader the dog needed (thus becoming a self fulfilling prophecy)?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I always wanted to know Onyx's pedigree, so I could possibly understand her better. 
Not that it would help with training or managing, but just to see what she is made up of.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Say you have a client come to you with a young adolescent male that has grumbled at the owner a few times. You look at the papers and note the dog has Crok (a dog often purported for producing handler aggression). You mention this to the handler who now instead of becoming a strong leader becomes tentative and nervous about handling the dog. The dog becomes even more difficult for this person and eventually bites them. Did the dog bite the handler because he has Crok in his pedigree or because the handler did not become the strong leader the dog needed (thus becoming a self fulfilling prophecy)?


Ay, there's the rub.

Personally, in a case like this, I would not tell the owner anything about Crok. I would read the pedigree, let the information weigh in, and then give the owner practical suggestions for addressing the issue.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

But would you be basing your suggestions on one dog found in the pedigree or on the dog and his real issues?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> But would you be basing your suggestions on one dog found in the pedigree or on the dog and his real issues?


Well, I'm not a professional trainer--but if I knew a dog's genetic predispositon, yes, it would probably sway my training technique somewhat. Some dogs can take a correction and bounce back. Others will shut down. Others will react aggressively. Much of this has to do with temperament, which is genetic. So there are techniques you could try with one dog that you wouldn't dare try with another. I don't know enough about GSD pedigrees to comment on which techniques would be most appropriate to try with which bloodlines--but I bet more knowledgable people could. I do know there are differences between breeds, so I gather there would be differences between bloodlines within a breed.

For example, if a particular bloodline is slow to mature, and there was a behavior I didn't like (say, jumping up), I might simply wait it out, pick my battles, and not focus my energy on it. If the particular bloodline is known for taking charge at the first opportunity, I might want to be more proactive about modifying the behavior.

I have two dogs from the same breeder and of similar bloodlines. I remember Luka jumping up on the door when she was a puppy. She grew out of it without a lot of fanfare. Now Vinca jumps up on the door and I can barely see out for the muddy pawprints. She is only 9 months old; do I want to get serious about extingushing that behavior? It *is* annoying, but not particularly dangerous or damaging. If Luka were still jumping on the door at ten years of age, I would probably be nipping this behavior in the bud with Vinca. But, assuming she will mature similarly as her great aunt, I am not going to expend a great deal of energy fussing over it. I don't punish the behavior, I just make her sit nicely before opening the door or giving her what she wants. But I may adjust my techniques if I need to. 

At the end of the day, it's the individual dog you are dealing with, so you do what works. Knowing the pedigree could give you clues as to what might work best, but it's not the be-all and end-all.


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