# 6 month old Shepherd with Failing Kidneys



## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I have a 6 month old Shepherd and a 7 year old Shepherd that my wife and I rescued about 5 years ago. Over this last weekend they went to stay with my parents and their 6 month old Shepherd (which they have done numerous times before). When we picked them up and got them home late Monday night my puppy was moaning a lot and looked like he was in a lot of pain.

 We took him to the emergency Vet and on the way he threw up twice in my Jeep and twice after he got there. They ran some blood tests, and the Vet came in and said that his kidneys were failing and they needed to keep him over night. Since then Turk (my puppy) was transferred to an animal hospital a few towns away and that is where he still is.

 I spoke with my parents and the dogs did not get into any antifreeze, or other toxins / poisons, and they didn’t eat grapes or raisins. My parents have a few toxic plants (I have now found out in their backyard), however the Vet said that the plants they have would not cause this.

 On Tuesday we went to go see Turk and he was worn down and could hardly walk. The Vet said they were running tests for Lyme Disease and Leptospirosis (which our main vet said that he had received a vaccination for only 4 types). Both tests came back negative. They also sent out a urine test and we are still waiting for the results. They did an ultrasound and Turk's kidneys are normal size / shape, but "lit up". They believe it is an infection or toxin that he ingested. The Vet was extremely concerned about his condition.

 Yesterday we went to visit Turk and the vet said that he had eaten a can of dog food and a small jar of baby food. They also said he has been peeing as well, which is apparently also a good sign (he has a catheter in right now) He also was up walking around, tail wagging, and bright eyed. The Vet told us that his "numbers dropped only a little bit" and that they would retest him in 48 hours. While we visited with him he definitely had a lot more energy and was so excited to see us, however I am still skeptical to be excited myself seeing as how they don't know how this happened.

 I am waiting for the vet to call me back this morning to see if they can fax me over his records / blood work. Turk has always, since we got him at 8 weeks old, been a fiend for water. He drinks and drinks until the bowl is gone. He does pee frequently, and only a few times, in the first couple of weeks of having him, he did pee in his sleep while lying on the floor.

 Our main vet was not extremely concerned with this and told us that if it continued to let them know. It did not continue so we did not think anything of it. Turk has also not been a HUGE eater. He is more of a grazer throughout the day.

 I spoke with the breeder we got Turk from and she said that she has never had a problem with her dogs' kidneys. My parents puppy is also from the same breeder (same father, different mother) and has not had any problems. Their puppy is 1 week younger than Turk and is significantly bigger than him.

 I am sorry for the long dissertation here, but I am so boggled and confused about this. And the more and more I read about kidney failure the more worried I am about his recovery, if he even has one. We are waiting for his results in 48 hours to see if his levels have gone down more. We are just so upset because he is so young, small and such a sweet dog. We wished we knew what caused this so it could be treated properly.

 (Sorry for this being my first thread on this forum).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

He had to have ingested something. Puppies can scarf down something before you even realize it. I am so sorry. Good wishes coming your way.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Poor baby, I am so glad you got him to the vet and giving him the best chance possible of recovery. I've said a prayer for Turk. Please keep us posted.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one of the most toxic substance is xylitol -- a sweetener used in so many things, especially low cal - diet foods -- GUM, toothpaste, diet cookies . Maybe your folks gave the dog a treat , a chunk of cookie. Unfortunately there is little awareness of xylitol being so toxic.

hope things work out for you.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Sorry, I have no insight to offer but send wishes for Turk's speedy and full recovery.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I will keep you posted, and thank you all for the kind words and prayers. We need them so much right now.

@carmspack - I checked with my mother and she said she does not have anything with xylitol that they could have gotten into. The only thing she gave them was a couple pieces of cantelope, some blueberrys, milk bones, and a bone marrow bone.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

did they also test him for equii and canine erhlichia? or just Lyme?

My 4 year old has 'constant' equii erhlichia positive, tho a test we ran showed she did not have an active infection a month later she was (sorry for the pun) sick as a dog, ran more tests, liver function was off..did an erhlichia test which came up positive, put her on doxy, she was back to normal in a couple days..Retested bloodwork when I was done with doxy, liver values back to normal.

If they haven't tested for Equii or canine erhlichia, I would ask them to do so. Hope he is on the mend


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm so sorry about your puppy! 

Kidney failure can also come from an infection like e-coli urinary infections. 

I find it quite curious that your dog has always had an insatiable thirst and now has kidney failure. I would suspect that he came with kidney problems. 

There are several threads on this board for puppies who have been diagnosed with renal failure. Look especially for posts by UConnGSD. 

The prognosis is not good but renal failure can often be managed. 

Here is one of the threads (and it references another): http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...can-10-month-old-gsd-have-kidney-failure.html


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> did they also test him for equii and canine erhlichia? or just Lyme?
> 
> My 4 year old has 'constant' equii erhlichia positive, tho a test we ran showed she did not have an active infection a month later she was (sorry for the pun) sick as a dog, ran more tests, liver function was off..did an erhlichia test which came up positive, put her on doxy, she was back to normal in a couple days..Retested bloodwork when I was done with doxy, liver values back to normal.
> 
> If they haven't tested for Equii or canine erhlichia, I would ask them to do so. Hope he is on the mend


I am still waiting for the fax to my work from the Vet to see the lab records. If I do not receive it before I leave I will get a copy when I visit Turk today.



Another question I have is could this have been a pre-existing condition due to his insane water consumption and lack of appetite prior to this? The Vet said they were not really concerned with that but if any of you have any input into the matter that would be great.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

See my post above. The lack of appetite could have been because of the build up stomach acid (very common in renal failure). That causes nausea. However, without previous blood work you have no way of knowing. 

What is his BUN and Creatine currently?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

carmspack said:


> one of the most toxic substance is xylitol -- a sweetener used in so many things, especially low cal - diet foods -- GUM, toothpaste, diet cookies . Maybe your folks gave the dog a treat , a chunk of cookie. Unfortunately there is little awareness of xylitol being so toxic.
> 
> hope things work out for you.


We had a xylitol ingestion here, our vet had never seen one until our dog. 
She had to have eaten an already chewed piece of gum, but it was unmistakable something happened...as within an hour she had vomited and her blood sugar dropped. She lost all coordination and almost sank into a coma.
Our ER vets (it was a Sunday night of course) are each roughly 40 miles away, so I drove to my husband's job, he is a medic and immediately he tested her blood sugar which was like, 20. (normal is around 80 similar to a human).
He gave her glucose and she recovered. She had mild liver elevation the next day, then it went back down and she has been fine since.

Ibuprofen messes up the kidneys. The same evening Pebbles got in xylitol, Conan ate ibuprofen. It was all in my teenage daughter's room where we put the dogs momentarily while my parents stopped by. That room is normally gated 
We learned a lot that week and it was very expensive, but Conan does have mild yet permanent damage to his kidneys, while Pebbles recovered and has no issues.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

TurksPapa said:


> Another question I have is could this have been a pre-existing condition due to his insane water consumption and lack of appetite prior to this? The Vet said they were not really concerned with that but if any of you have any input into the matter that would be great.


Was his urine diluted when he'd pee a lot? Yes those are symptoms of kidney failure, unfortunately.
We had a kidney end stage failure foster for 4mos. and saw all those symptoms.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> What is his BUN and Creatine currently?


I am still waiting to find out from the Vet. I spoke to them about three hours ago and she said she would have the desk clerk fax me over his records from the last few days. I am still waiting.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Well we just got back from the Vet and Turk was so energetic. The Vet said she was concerned because he had not really eaten all day. While he was with us she brought him his wet food and he scarfed it down. She said that because he was eating that she wanted to start him on deoxycycline. 

We ended up taking him outside to see his brother Thor and so he could walk around. He peed A LOT while we were out there (like 20 seconds straight). He was jumping all around and seemed (on the outside) to be the dog he was at home.

When we got back inside the Vet said she wanted to test him for Addison's because of some of his blood levels. I told her to go for it. Before I left I was given Turks latest blood test results from yesterday.

Creatinine - 6 (was 7.1 the day before)
BUN / Creatinine Ratio - 20 / 4-27 Ratio (same)
Phosphorus - 15.5 (same)
Calcium - 6.6 (4.7 before)
Corrected Calcium - 7 (5.4 before)
Sodium - 153 (151 before)
Potassium - 4.1 (3.1 before)
Total Protein - 5.2 (4.6 before)
Urea Nitrogen 118 (140 before)


If anyone has any input on those results that would be great.

Tomorrow is the big day to see if his levels have dropped significantly or at all. I am hoping and prayer that they did.


Here are some pictures of our boy




















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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That CREA level is incredibly high. It should be lower than 1.5.  What did the vet say about that level? Did she feel that it was coming down and would continue to decrease?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> That CREA level is incredibly high. It should be lower than 1.5.  What did the vet say about that level? Did she feel that it was coming down and would continue to decrease?


I don't know we will see tomorrow when they draw and test his blood again. I am obviously hoping for the best and that they will drop a lot more


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

What treats have you been feeding the dogs since you got them? What food?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It's good that it's dropping--hopefully it will keep going down. 

Can you visit him more often if he isn't eating for the vet staff?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with BowWowMeow.....it sounds like he has had something going on for a while....he really shouldn't have to drink like that. One of the first signs of kidney disease is lack of appetite. Hoping the vets still have him on I/V fluids with his bloods like they are....he needs to stay on them until they are back to normal.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Well the Vet called me this morning and said that Turk had a 20 second seizure last night. They took his blood then to see what was going on and found that his calcium levels dropped. She said because of this they are giving him low doses of calcium to bring him back up. 

The vet did say that all of Turks numbers are dropping for his kidneys and liver. She did say his creatinine level dropped from 6.0 to 4.9. I Know that's still high but at least it dropped. I will get the rest of the results when we go see him today. 

She did say he was not eating much this morning but I know he will eat like crazy once we are there again. 

In response to come of the questions people have asked:

Treats he has been given: Milk Bones, raw hides from Petco (no flavor just regular raw hides), small marrow bones (maybe 4 in the last 4 months). Nothing else

Food he has tried: The breeder was feeding him Purina Puppy Chow with bits. He didn't like it that much so we switched to science diet for puppies, and he hated it. We then switched to an all Natural food (not Blue but a similar brand) which he didn't really like. The last food he has had was Purina Pro Plan large breed for puppies. He liked it but like I said he has never been a huge eater. He would probably graze and eat a total of 2-3 cups a day. 

As far as his urine, it has always been pretty clear with not much odor. I assumed it was because he drank so much water that his urine was clear. 

I will post up his results from the bloodwork this morning after we visit him tonight. They have him still with an IV for fluids and want to keep him for another 2-4 days so they can monitor his levels. 

The only thing is that a 24 hour vet hospital is like $350 a night and I'm just a Police Officer who doesn't make insane amounts of money. My wife just graduated with her degree in Dental Hygiene (Dental Hygienist) and is looking for a job so money is really tight. We dont have any kids so we consider our dogs our kids and want to get him the best care we can. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

For your future reference, there is alot of good information on this page
https://www.facebook.com/CRFDogs?ref=ts
Great supplement list to support kidney function. And suggested dog foods that are lower in phosphorus. This might be something you'll need to consider going forward.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

check all the lables to treats,food and bones he was ever given to make sure they arent from china..and the bags can sometimes be decieving so look at all the small print


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

My main concern is the lack of testing for JRD, Juvenile Renal Dysplasia. More and more GSD's have been showing up with this and they die fairly young.

Please, please, please talk to your vet about this. They will need to ultrasound his kidneys.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> For your future reference, there is alot of good information on this page
> https://www.facebook.com/CRFDogs?ref=ts
> Great supplement list to support kidney function. And suggested dog foods that are lower in phosphorus. This might be something you'll need to consider going forward.


Thank you so much, I will be reading all of them over.



rooandtree said:


> check all the lables to treats,food and bones he was ever given to make sure they arent from china..and the bags can sometimes be decieving so look at all the small print


I will definitely look at them when I get home tonight.



jaggirl47 said:


> My main concern is the lack of testing for JRD, Juvenile Renal Dysplasia. More and more GSD's have been showing up with this and they die fairly young.
> 
> Please, please, please talk to your vet about this. They will need to ultrasound his kidneys.


I will ask them tonight about it. Apparently there is some expert Vet that is actually visiting the hospital today. The main Vet I have been talking to said that this expert only pops in once or twice a year and they are giving her Turks file to look at to see if she can think of anything else or what direction they should be going with treatment.


My fingers are crossed and we will see how my boy is doing tonight when we go to see him. Its the highlight of my day and its all I look forward to. We took Thor (our older shepherd) to go visit his brother yesterday and you should have seen both of them light up when they saw each other. We had to calm them both down from jumping all over one another, but it was so great to see them both so happy. Fingers crossed for our visit tonight.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

At the very least, get the ultrasound done. Blood tests will only tell you if the kidneys have issues but not what the problem is. The ultrasound shows what the issue is. If he has JRD, it is better to know now than later.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> At the very least, get the ultrasound done. Blood tests will only tell you if the kidneys have issues but not what the problem is. The ultrasound shows what the issue is. If he has JRD, it is better to know now than later.


He had an ultra sound on day 2. His kidneys were normal size and shape, but his kidneys were "lit up" which they said was possibly from a toxin and inflamation.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

TurksPapa said:


> He had an ultra sound on day 2. His kidneys were normal size and shape, but his kidneys were "lit up" which they said was possibly from a toxin and inflamation.


 
Well, that can be better. Ask them if they saw anything other than a "lit up" area. Hopefully he is still on fluids to flush everything out, but it still worries me that he had symptoms previous to this.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> Well, that can be better. Ask them if they saw anything other than a "lit up" area. Hopefully he is still on fluids to flush everything out, but it still worries me that he had symptoms previous to this.


 
I hear yah, now that I have learned what all of these symptoms added up can mean I am also worried. He has been on a steady IV for fluids since he got into the hospital late Monday night. And I will definitely ask them tonight about the ultra sound


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There is also a Yahoo K9 kidneys group - I am not sure if it's only for chronic issues - I am hoping that this is acute: K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease it is very busy, informative, complicated (to me!).


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> It's good that it's dropping--hopefully it will keep going down.
> 
> Can you visit him more often if he isn't eating for the vet staff?


My wife is in contact with the Vet and is planning on making a couple trips if need be. The only problem is the Vet is about 45-60 min away (each way). This is because the ONLY vet that was open the night of Labor day was a couple of towns over and this is their main facility.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> There is also a Yahoo K9 kidneys group - I am not sure if it's only for chronic issues - I am hoping that this is acute: K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease it is very busy, informative, complicated (to me!).


Thanks haha, I will have my wife try and translate.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is he doing today? Are you going to visit him? Is it possible to move him to a vet nearby? If all they are doing is running an IV then there shouldn't be any reason not to move him. Or is he in a 24 hour facility?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> At the very least, get the ultrasound done. Blood tests will only tell you if the kidneys have issues but not what the problem is. The ultrasound shows what the issue is. If he has JRD, it is better to know now than later.


The expert Vet that checked over Turks records was actually leaning more towards JRD. The main Vet I have been dealing with said that they did not want to do the biopsy test for it though because they did not want to have to put Turk in surgery and risk compromising his already hurting kidney. They did look over the ultrasound again with the tech but they said they did not see any signs of JRD though.



BowWowMeow said:


> How is he doing today? Are you going to visit him? Is it possible to move him to a vet nearby? If all they are doing is running an IV then there shouldn't be any reason not to move him. Or is he in a 24 hour facility?


Turk was doing well today. He came into the room running, jumping, and wagging his tail. We spent about an hour with him. We got him to eat his entire bowl of food. The Vet said he had been eating here and there all day but definitely ate the most while we fed him. The place he is at is a 24 hour animal hospital. I WANT to move him to a closer Vet, but with him having that 20 second seizure last night I am glad he was at a hospital where a Doctor was on staff to deal with it and check his levels.

Right now the Vet is concerned with his Calcium levels and believes that was why he had his seizure and why he has a small twitch in his right cheek. She said they are only giving him a low dose of Calcium due to his Phos levels being high.

I asked her about his moaning because while he is standing up, running around, or sitting he is fine. However, when he lays down he lets out this lonnnnnnnng moans and sighs. It looks like his breathing is still a little labored, and his stomach is gurgling like crazy. She said she didn't know if the moaning was more of an attention thing because he has been doing a lot when the technicians and her are petting him and paying him a lot of attention. 

So they are testing his calcium levels tomorrow again so hopefully they go up, and then they are checking his renal values in another 48 hours.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It sounds like he is getting excellent care and you're right, it's best to have a doctor on duty and have him in a hospital environment right now until he's stable.

The gurgling is most likely the stomach acid build-up. I give slippery elm for that but they would most likely give pepcid. 

I'm sorry, I missed the part about the seizure. I hope that was a one time thing. 

Is his CREA still going down?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

His new levels from early this morning are:

Creatinine - 4.9 
BUN - 63
Phosphorus - 13.6
Calcium - 6.9
Sodium - 161
Potassium - 5


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Here's a website that is pretty informative when it comes to reading bloodwork.
Understanding Blood Work: The Biochemical Profile for Dogs - Page 1

Hope Turk feels better soon !


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Here's a website that is pretty informative when it comes to reading bloodwork.
> Understanding Blood Work: The Biochemical Profile for Dogs - Page 1
> 
> Hope Turk feels better soon !


Thank you. They said as long his his numbers keep dropping, and he keeps eating, then he can go home soon and we can follow up with our home Vet.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That's great that his CREA is going down. They should show you how to do Sub-Qs and you can do them twice a day at home. It's very easy--I did it for my cat and I've done it for other people's cats and dogs.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Also, make sure you have a good low protein, low phos diet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our vet recommended a "diet food", and we chose Avoderm with 18% or less protein.
Avoderm changed their formulas, so we now use something else for him.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would research diet very carefully. Low phosphorous, yes, but low protein has become quite controversial. You definitely want to research different sources of proteins though because some are more recommended than others (easier on the kidneys, lower in phosphorous, etc.). 

I absolutely would not feed any kibble. I would do homemade or a raw diet. Kibble is extremely difficult for the kidneys to process because it is so dry. 

UConnGSD did homemade and then raw for her dog Wolfie (who was diagnosed with kidney failure when he was a puppy) so you may want to send her a PM. She did a TON of research on diet.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I have been reading a lot of the other kidney / liver threads and have seen some of the diets. I'm assuming that by kibble everyone just means dry bagged dog food. I will definitely shoot a PM to ask some questions. The Vet said we will most likely have to give Turk IVs (which we have no problem doing). 

The Vet called me this morning and said Turk had a small seizure (5 seconds) yesterday a little bit after we left. They are still giving him calcium to try to get his level up to stop the seizures. They are retesting his calcium levels later this morning and we will find out when we go see him this afternoon after I am out of work. 


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am so very sorry that you are going through this with such a young dog. Good wishes coming your way.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

My wife just spoke with our main Vet that we use and he is concerned about this entire situation. He feels as though the animal hospital Turk is at now is being too kind about the prognosis (something we have been nervous about).

We have been concerned about the fact that no one knows for sure what is going on and it seems as though the only thing that has been going on is putting out little fires that present themselves, but not really getting anywhere with the big problem.

Our main Vet explained some of the possible outcomes and asked us to confront the animal hospital with specific questions. His big concern is that, without a definite diagnosis of the problem, we will get Turk home and the problems will start all over again, beacuse we obviously will not be able to provide the same care as a hospital.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

TurksPapa said:


> My wife just spoke with our main Vet that we use and he is concerned about this entire situation. He feels as though the animal hospital Turk is at now is being too kind about the prognosis (something we have been nervous about).
> 
> We have been concerned about the fact that no one knows for sure what is going on and it seems as though the only thing that has been going on is putting out little fires that present themselves, but not really getting anywhere with the big problem.
> 
> Our main Vet explained some of the possible outcomes and asked us to confront the animal hospital with specific questions. His big concern is that, without a definite diagnosis of the problem, we will get Turk home and the problems will start all over again, beacuse we obviously will not be able to provide the same care as a hospital.


 
This is my main concern as well. If you have the money for it, try to get a true diagnosis with a biopsy of his kidney. This way, you will know the diagnosis and exactly how bad it truly is. You can plan your path from there with your pup.

I am glad that they are doing 24/7 care, but at the same time I am concerned. It's like a "what if" game with no actual diagnosis.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> This is my main concern as well. If you have the money for it, try to get a true diagnosis with a biopsy of his kidney. This way, you will know the diagnosis and exactly how bad it truly is. You can plan your path from there with your pup.
> 
> I am glad that they are doing 24/7 care, but at the same time I am concerned. It's like a "what if" game with no actual diagnosis.


Well my wife went and met with our main vet just now and he took a look at the latest lab results and said he was extremely concerned even though his numbers have been dropping.

He recommended going to see a specialist at Ocean State Animal Hospital in RI. Everyone I have talked to in the area has recommended Ocean State, so my wife is going to pick Turk up right now, pay our bill, and bring him directly to Ocean State to see the specialist. 

Its nothing against the place they are at now, however I want a realist who is going to be a little more aggressive about this.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

TurksPapa said:


> Well my wife went and met with our main vet just now and he took a look at the latest lab results and said he was extremely concerned even though his numbers have been dropping.
> 
> He recommended going to see a specialist at Ocean State Animal Hospital in RI. Everyone I have talked to in the area has recommended Ocean State, so my wife is going to pick Turk up right now, pay our bill, and bring him directly to Ocean State to see the specialist.
> 
> Its nothing against the place they are at now, however I want a realist who is going to be a little more aggressive about this.


 
You need a true answer with a truthful outcome. I'm glad your wife is taking him to the specialist. You will get those answers you and your dog both need and deserve.

Personally, I am the type that wants a straight answer from a vet. I do not want any beating around the bush. Good or bad, I want it so I can decide and plan out what is best for our family (to include the dog).


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You REALLY need to PM UConnGSD. 

She went through all of this with Wolfie (including driving him down to Cornell several times). 

Jaggirl: I don't know why you would be recommending a biopsy when Turk is in a very compromised state. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the cause of the renal failure is because the prognosis and treatment is the same. And sometimes it is not possible (or necessarily helpful) to get "a true answer." The most important thing right now is to help the kidneys function. 

Being aggressive with chronic renal failure (no matter the cause) is keeping the animal on fluids (flushing out the kidneys) as well as feeding a low phosphorous diet with a good quality of protein.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

TurksPapa said:


> I have been reading a lot of the other kidney / liver threads and have seen some of the diets. I'm assuming that by kibble everyone just means dry bagged dog food. I will definitely shoot a PM to ask some questions.


I can tell you the first thing my vet did when they found Banshee's CRF was print out information on home cooked diets. Banshee was already on a RAW diet but the added information was great to balance of calcium/phosphorus.

Definetely send UConn a PM. She was great helping me with Banshee. The facebook page I posted earlier was fantastic and read the Notes sections. Lots of recipes, lists of supplements, eggshell calcium info.

I have a spreadsheet and a website I use to pull nutritional info from that I can email you as well. On the facebook page, they have lists of dog food and tripe that they have researched and found to be at acceptable levels for CRF.


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## Alfiesmama (Aug 5, 2012)

We lost our old GSD to kidney failure in April . Pls, pls , pls join the yahoo group K9Kidneys. They literally saved my boy and my sanity with the wealth of knowledge and support. Obtain copies of all bloodwork/ultrasound/etc from the vets. Ask lots of questions. Read all the files. There are members with GSDs in same age range who have outlived the ominous statistical avg w/very good quality of life to this day. Given your boys age his nutritional needs and bloodwork values are going to be different then those of us with older beasts. Sending healing thoughts to your boy. Be proactive in knowing about this disease in order to be your boy's biggest advocate. he CAN live a very good quality of life. KD is manageable.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

So news from the Kidney specialist. He doesn't believe it's a toxin at all. He said there is no doubt in his mind that it is congenital. He said its a slim chance of Addisons but thinks he was just born with this. They are checking for Addison's right now and if it is not Addison's he recommended doing a biopsy since his kidneys are normal size and shape he said the risk is not that great. He told my wife on the realistic end his chances are not that great due to how high his levels got. 

I'm out of work in 10 minutes and heading up there to speak with them. I'll keep everyone posted. I want to get this guy home and try to control this. He mentioned an IV everyday along with a strict diet and constant fluids of we take him home in a day or two. 


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Hope all goes well. Thanks for the update


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Jaggirl: I don't know why you would be recommending a biopsy when Turk is in a very compromised state. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the cause of the renal failure is because the prognosis and treatment is the same. And sometimes it is not possible (or necessarily helpful) to get "a true answer." The most important thing right now is to help the kidneys function.


 
Considering it's the same advice the specialist gave, it is the only way to know and properly treat. A guessing game is not a game to play. That's why I am recommending a biopsy.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

TurksPapa, I am so glad you guys are getting answers. Hopefully this specialist can get you on the right track with treatment and a plan of action. Good luck to you guys. It's hard to go through anything bad with your dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ocean State is top notch, I am hoping and praying for Turk and you guys to.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

TurksPapa said:


> So news from the Kidney specialist.* He doesn't believe it's a toxin at all. He said there is no doubt in his mind* that it is congenital. He said its a slim chance of Addisons but thinks he was just born with this. They are checking for Addison's right now and if it is not Addison's he recommended doing a biopsy since his kidneys are normal size and shape he said the risk is not that great. He told my wife on the realistic end his chances are not that great due to how high his levels got.
> 
> I'm out of work in 10 minutes and heading up there to speak with them. I'll keep everyone posted. I want to get this guy home and try to control this. He mentioned an IV everyday along with a strict diet and constant fluids of we take him home in a day or two.
> 
> ...


Turkspapa...at 6 months, is he on heartworm prevention and if yes, what is it? What was his vaccination schedule?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Turkspapa...at 6 months, is he on heartworm prevention and if yes, what is it? What was his vaccination schedule?


Yes he is, once a month, and its Heartguard.



JakodaCD OA said:


> Ocean State is top notch, I am hoping and praying for Turk and you guys to.


They are AMAZING, and I wish I knew about them because I would have drove the extra 30 min back on Monday.



jaggirl47 said:


> TurksPapa, I am so glad you guys are getting answers. Hopefully this specialist can get you on the right track with treatment and a plan of action. Good luck to you guys. It's hard to go through anything bad with your dog.


The specialist was unbelievable. When my wife first got there with Turk he came into the room and said hi to her. He then laid down on the ground with Turk and started to pet him and talk to him.

He then put his papers on the ground next to Turk and started to talk to my wife about what he thought after reviewing Turk's records from the previous animal hospital. While talking to her Turk stood up and started to pee all over his papers. Crystal jumped up and he told her not to worry about it. He didn't even flinch and even giggled a little. 

He then explained to my wife that he believed, based on Turks history since we got him, and from all of the negative results from all of the tests run at the other hospital, that this was congenital. He told her that there was a SLIM chance that it was Addison's disease, and just because I wanted to rule out every possibility I had them run the test....it was negative.

He then came back in and explained that he wanted to do a biopsy of Turks Kidney. He said it would explain a lot and because they were normal size and shape, there was minimal risk. He also explained it would 100% show if this was congenital or acute (even though its probably congenital), and it would also be able to help me out when I contact the breeder regarding this incident.

He was very up front about everything, and spoke in terms we could both understand. We both really appreciated it. He also was a cut to the chase kind of guy. He pretty much laid it out that IF Turks levels could come down to acceptable levels (for Turk) that he would go home but it would be a lot of work. He said that he would personally put together a diet plan and everything to go with it. (I will still be doing my own research on the diets and other ways)

My wife and I told him that we were going to run with this and provide Turk with the best possible life he could have, and we were willing to do whatever it takes to get him there. He told us that apparently we are some of the few who would have taken their dog this far, which I found out to be very sad. He told me that a lot of people would have put their dog to sleep by now. 

My wife called me crying on her ride to the Ocean State and told me that she never wanted to get there because she was having so much fun with Turk. She sent me about 15 pictures of him sitting on the seat next to hear with his tongue out hanging out with his mama.

I will be continuing to update you guys with how he is doing, and I really appreciate all of the help you guys have been providing.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Before running a biopsy, have him do a MDR 1 (cheek swab - I think, Jakoda would know better as she has MDR1 mutant dog/dogs (?).

Heartguard is on the no list of drugs for MDR 1 mutation
busteralert.org No list is at the bottom of this story.


*Why is MDR1 important:*

MDR1 is important because it 'codes for' (i.e. makes) the P-glycoprotein nano-pump (P-gp). In nature these molecules are the ultimate ‘de-tox’, reducing the absorbtion of and also removing potentially harmful substances (toxins) from the body.

P-gp molecules are found all over the body in areas including the intestines (where they limit absorbtion), kidney, liver and brain (where they help to remove foreign substances). All these areas are, by their nature, regularly exposed to toxins and need to be ‘kept clean’ by functional P-gp pumps. They have been likened to nature’s vacuum cleaners.

If positive for MDR 1 mutation, then Heartguard may have been the cause


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at the College of Veterinary Medicine

This is the link to the MDR 1 test at Washington State University.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is my understanding that the LOW DOSAGE of Heartguard is not a problem even in dogs with MDR1 gene.
While I'd not rule out the dog having the MDR1 gene, it's not as common in GSDs as in collies, shelties, Aussies and border collies.

Manifestations are usually more of a neurological issue than one of the kidneys.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> It is my understanding that the LOW DOSAGE of Heartguard is not a problem even in dogs with MDR1 gene.
> While I'd not rule out the dog having the MDR1 gene, it's not as common in GSDs as in collies, shelties, Aussies and border collies.
> 
> Manifestations are usually more of a neurological issue than one of the kidneys.


Turk is having seizures too.

Seizures, kidney failure. The vet may not have discussed MDR1 because he's not a "collie type breed", however it is common in 3 out of 4 collies, it is becoming more a "herding breed". If it is undertested/reported then it is only prevelent as far as Vets and people want to go with it.

The specialist said not "likely" a toxin. Then they can do an invasive biopsy to "prove" 100% that it is genetic. WHY? So they can go to expence and then advise the breeder they have JRD mutant dog? OR, do a less invasive test (and less costly) and find out that it's not toxin related.

Note to Turkspapa...some pre-anesthesia drugs are also on the MDR1 list. Has Turk been put under for neutering?

If you have MDR1 mutation, and fixed-pre-anesthsia drug, heartguard, propylene glycol in Purina and raw hides...adds up to toxin overload...plus vaccinations


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kidney failure can cause seizures.
Sometimes, a horse is just a horse, and not a zebra. Everywhere you look is not zebras, more likely than not, it is horses you are seeing and trying to paint stripes on.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at the College of Veterinary Medicine
> 
> This is the link to the MDR 1 test at Washington State University.


Thanks, jaggirl...that confirms I hadn't mis-read...so cheek swab OR blood and only at WSU


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> *Kidney failure can cause seizures*.
> Sometimes, a horse is just a horse, and not a zebra. Everywhere you look is not zebras, more likely than not, it is horses you are seeing and trying to paint stripes on.


 
P-gp molecules are found all over the body in areas including the intestines (where they limit absorbtion), *kidney*, liver and brain 

Kidney failure can cause seizures


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

GatorBytes said:


> Thanks, jaggirl...that confirms I hadn't mis-read...so cheek swab OR blood and only at WSU


When we did Leyna's, it took around 2 weeks to come back. The test is not immediate and I wish it was. 

BTW, I did not test her because I thought she had it (she doesn't), I just like testing her for things.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> When we did Leyna's, it took around 2 weeks to come back. The test is not immediate and I wish it was.
> 
> BTW, I did not test her because I thought she had it (she doesn't), *I just like testing her for things*.


LOL!...better to have done and know (chuckling still)

2 weeks, that sucks


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Yes to asking about the MDR1 gene, while they say small doses of ivermectin may not do any harm, I'm sure there can always be an exception to the rule.

This link www.busteralert.org should also have a long list of "no no" drugs for an MDR1 dog. 

What the heck, it's only one more test, and I'd want to rule it out, it's not that expensive either. 

So glad your happy with Ocean State , like I said, they are top notch and have a great staff. 

I'm also glad your getting some answers, nothing worse than not having a more definitive diagnosis

I agree with him, I think now adays there would be many that would not go the xtra mile, probably because of finances..

Please let us know how the biopsy turns out, and keeping prayers going to TUrk


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> I would research diet very carefully. Low phosphorous, yes, but low protein has become quite controversial. You definitely want to research different sources of proteins though because some are more recommended than others (easier on the kidneys, lower in phosphorous, etc.).
> 
> I absolutely would not feed any kibble. I would do homemade or a raw diet. Kibble is extremely difficult for the kidneys to process because it is so dry.
> 
> UConnGSD did homemade and then raw for her dog Wolfie (who was diagnosed with kidney failure when he was a puppy) so you may want to send her a PM. She did a TON of research on diet.


 
See link (brief)
Dogs Naturally Magazine Canine Diets For Kidney Failure


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

More kidney info: DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs

For the MDR1 it is extremely doubtful that even the most mutant dog of the most mutant types of dogs would react to the blip of ivermectin in a monthly heartworm med, and Heartgard and Interceptor are both on the list - I think all of them are, not sure - but there are meds used during surgeries and biopsies that *ARE* on the MDR1 list that would be used in sufficient quantities to have a reaction. 

Your vet may be able to just assume he is MDR1 and use surgery and post op meds that are not on the list instead of waiting for testing to come back, as I assume that the biopsy is going to be sooner rather than later. It's on the WSU site and busteralert. I am assuming my Sheltie mix is MDR1 and have treated him as such since he came here. 

For a GSD, especially one who is currently ill, I would ask the vet office about either testing specifically for von Willebrand's or doing the buccal muccosal bleeding time test, especially if he's never had a surgery before. BMBT

So I would 1. ask for that BMBT test 2. assume he's MDR1 for safety sake for the surgery/post op meds, and then, 3. ask if they will be doing a clotting factors test - I am not sure if this is mainly for liver surgeries and biopsies, but it just seemed like an important test for one of my dogs. 

Good luck with all of this - I am sure that there is nothing you have done to have caused this problem in your dog - and not everyone could do what you are doing to help him - we are rooting for you.


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I will definitely ask them when I go to see Turk after work today. I don't think the specialist I saw yesterday works Sundays but I will speak with whatever doctor is there. 

And I have a HUGE support system behind me. My family and friends are amazing. They convinced me to set up a donations page to help off set the out of pocket Vet bills and I am absolutely amazed at the results. 

That and I have an amazing wife who will help me and do everything in her power to learn about all this to help Turk the best we can. 

Times like these that make you realize the material things in life really do not matter. 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

yep ditto what Jean said, I highly doubt he is an mdr carrier, but I would mention it and yes to all else she said

AND YEP we are rooting for you TURK!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes, one can assume a dog or pup is MDR1 and not use things that would trigger a problem, which is what our own vet did with our GSDxDutchie, but you can assume he is, opt to _not_ test and avoid the drugs, or you can opt to test and add that to your bill$.

Either way, avoiding a potential trigger is best - and either way your vet would tell you that the heartguard was safe for the dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wishing all the best to Turk.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> recommending a biopsy when Turk is in a very compromised state. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the cause of the renal failure is because the prognosis and treatment is the same. And sometimes it is not possible (or necessarily helpful) to get "a true answer." The most important thing right now is to help the kidneys function.
> 
> Being aggressive with chronic renal failure (no matter the cause) is keeping the animal on fluids (flushing out the kidneys) as well as feeding a low phosphorous diet with a good quality of protein.


 
The most accurate *method for diagnosing JRD is a wedge biopsy from one kidney* taken any time after the second month of life, or a histopathologic exam after death. A biopsy or autopsy of a puppy less than two months of age would not be fruitful, since the normally immature kidneys cannot be distinguished from those affected by JRD. The slides should be examined by an experienced pathologist. *There are a number of pathologists who have a considerable interest in this disease*. *It is not reasonable to expect most puppy owners who are not breeders, to agree to a wedge biopsy, since a more accurate diagnosis will not affect the treatment or prognosis, and since the necessary anesthesia is not without risk.*



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> More kidney info: DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs
> 
> For the MDR1 it is extremely doubtful that even the most mutant dog of the most mutant types of dogs would react to the blip of ivermectin in a monthly heartworm med, and Heartgard and Interceptor are both on the list - I think all of them are, not sure -* but there are meds used during surgeries and biopsies that ARE on the MDR1 list that would be used in sufficient quantities to have a reaction. *
> 
> ...





msvette2u said:


> Yes, *one can assume a dog or pup is MDR1 and not use things that would trigger a problem*, which is what our own vet did with our GSDxDutchie, *but you can assume he is, opt to not test and avoid the drugs, or you can opt to test and add that to your bill$.*
> 
> Either way, avoiding a potential trigger is best - and *either way your vet would tell you that the heartguard was safe for the dog*.


Yes you can treat Turk as an MDR1 dog and avoid the certain known and possible drug and pesticide (heartworm) risks. I brought to your attention merely to consider doing a non-invasive DNA test (cheek swab) to prove or disprove the specialists "assumption" that it was not toxin related.

Or a dangerous invasive biopsy at considerable expence and risk to the dog because he is a good candidate (because the kidneys are full size, so therefore...:crazy, to proove 100% that this IS genetic, because the vet thinks so.

It's still kidney failure...you still have to treat as kidney failure, regardless of the cause.

And Turkspapa I wasn't implying that you did anything wrong, I was implying that this is Iatrogenic caused (doctor caused), over vaccination (all in one shot, rabies at time of other shots, leptosporosis (which can cause lepto - symptom is...kidney failure), substandard diet from the breeder to the pups and the mother (likely, assuming), then monthly pesticide treatments...in MDR1 mutant - doesn't have to be acute...it accumulates, over time and in an immuno compromised dog with all noted in just the first 6 months of his life (?), well you must get the idea...Also why I asked if he was neutered yet...re: what Jean said.
and yes the vet WILL tell you it IS safe, because the drug companies said so...
Has turk had any other meds...parasite/diarrhea?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

GatorBytes said:


> The most accurate *method for diagnosing JRD is a wedge biopsy from one kidney* taken any time after the second month of life, or a histopathologic exam after death. A biopsy or autopsy of a puppy less than two months of age would not be fruitful, since the normally immature kidneys cannot be distinguished from those affected by JRD. The slides should be examined by an experienced pathologist. *There are a number of pathologists who have a considerable interest in this disease*. *It is not reasonable to expect most puppy owners who are not breeders, to agree to a wedge biopsy, since a more accurate diagnosis will not affect the treatment or prognosis**, and since the necessary anesthesia is not without risk.*
> 
> 
> GatorBytes said:
> ...


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Turk was not neutered yet because he has undescended testicles. Our Vet wanted to wait till about 6 months but all of this has presented itself. 

I know the vet recently (last day) put him on diarrhea meds. Unsure about parasite meds. 


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The most accurate method for diagnosing JRD is a wedge biopsy from one kidney taken any time after the second month of life, or a histopathologic exam after death. A biopsy or autopsy of a puppy less than two months of age would not be fruitful, since the normally immature kidneys cannot be distinguished from those affected by JRD. The slides should be examined by an experienced pathologist. There are a number of pathologists who have a considerable interest in this disease. It is not reasonable to expect most puppy owners who are not breeders, to agree to a wedge biopsy, since a more accurate diagnosis will not affect the treatment or prognosis, and since the necessary anesthesia is not without risk.


If this is a quote from a website, you need to link to the site, gator.
It sounds like something written in an article - when you take snippets of articles you need to reference that article, or else it is being presented out of context, sometimes badly and we're not getting the entire message but only portions.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I am so sorry for you and your pup. I have looked at the photo's a couple times and he is so beautiful.

I tried to find lit. on what jaggirl said, and all I can find about biopsy regards to breeding (or more like for the purpose of not breeding). So unless there is a purpose to absolutely obtain the status of the kidney health (the Crea levels over 5 is not good) for the purpose of the type of treatment (like in cancer). It seems to be the same regardless, diet, fluids. Then this may just be one of those things you don't need to know. But you will have to take that up with the vet. IF a biopsy will extend his life, then sure. But if this is a need to know if "genetic", there is a DNA test (for JRD) too, just like MDR1 - cheek swab. Dogenes (in Canada), cost about $135. At least with the swab, you will know if it was or wasn't toxin related. However there are other causes too...it's about how far are you willing to go.

My humble opinion, is to get as much info as you can to manage him once home and just love him up. He's been through so much already, as have you and your wife. Sorry. I hope you have many yrs. to come with him, fingers crossed he recoups and comes home


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If this is a quote from a website, you need to link to the site, gator.
> It sounds like something written in an article - when you take snippets of articles you need to reference that article, or else it is being presented out of context, sometimes badly and we're not getting the entire message but only portions.


meant to


Juvenile Renal Disease in Standard Poodles

Renal Dysplasia Testing 2011 Update with DOGenes Genetic Testing Update 2011 | American Shih Tzu Club

Kidney Disease In Your Dog - Chronic Renal Failure


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I brought to your attention merely to consider doing a non-invasive DNA test (cheek swab) to prove or disprove the specialists "assumption" that it was not toxin related.


I'd say the MDR1 test is up to the owner, definitely mention to the vet or ask about it, or the possibility this is what is going on. 

But the biopsy has been recommended by the vet who is treating this dog; we are not. I'm glad there's information out there but at some point, the vet who is treating the dog should be trusted. And if the MDR1 test is done, and found negative?? You seem quite certain this is the cause of the problem. 

I realize you, gator, have a deep mistrust of vets and perhaps that's justified in your case, but that does not mean we all out to sit around and recommend people second guess their own vets. Unless something was truly out of whack (which we do sometimes see) but this vet seems on the ball despite some misgivings on the OP's part originally.




GatorBytes said:


> meant to
> Juvenile Renal Disease in Standard Poodles


This information and recommendations are 16yrs. old...a lot has changed in that time.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok you two, can we 'stop', and not make it about this back and forth? I don't want to see this thread go off topic with who's right/wrong..thank you


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok you two, can we 'stop', and not make it about this back and forth? I don't want to see this thread go off topic with who's right/wrong..thank you


(This must have come thru as I typed)...

It's what I have been saying all along. Thanks. I won't be party to this banter


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I understand everyone's passion when it comes to this topic and our GSDs. For someone like me, who is about as new as you can get for this, it's so overwhelming. I'm trying to research all of the links everyone is posting and my head is spinning. 

The Vet is calling me around 11 today for Turks daily update. I wasn't able to see one last night because they were so busy. They had 2 emergency cases come in at once. 

I will let you all know how I make out. Also, I'm trying to post up two pictures of Turk from yesterday. I'm hoping this mobile app lets me. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Re: photos...That is redonkulously cute...holy cow

I sympathize with you about information overload and having the emotional element on top of that as well questions of what and why. Grief can cloud and overwhelm when you are trying to make decissions.

Regardless of anything else, everyone is here hanging on for you and praying for the best for all.

Give Turk a kiss from me and G


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok you two, can we 'stop', and not make it about this back and forth? I don't want to see this thread go off topic with who's right/wrong..thank you


I don't care for it either, and I apologize.

**** You have been asked to stop by a Mod and you apologize and then put in just one more comment. Stop means STOP!! **** Admin Lisa*


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Turk is adorable. What did the vet say today?

Sending many positive, healing thoughts your way.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

He is adorable. Hope he's feeling better today


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

awww he looks good, and you'd probably never know he was sick by looking at him..keeping fingers crossed for some good news


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Turk is absolutely adorable! I love the pic where he looks like he is hugging a leg. 

As far as a wedge biopsy, it is normally recommended in order to see just how severe the actual disease is. Just like most genetic diseases, there are different levels of severity. When the biopsy is done, it will tell the exact percentage of immaturity of the kidney. This is extremely important for the treatment. The less affected the kidney is, the greater the treatment options. The more severe the kidney is affected, the less chance of effective treatment. It gives a greater diagnosis for what to expect in the overall treatment.

A friend of mine lost his 9 month old pup to thus horrible disease almost a year and a half ago. Nobody, not even the vets, recognized the warning signs and he continued to be treated with the protocal for normal kidney failure. It ultimately killed his pup pretty quickly. He finally got answers after a necrospy was done at WSU. Could the outcome have been different if the signs were recognized and the proper treatment was initiated sooner? Possibly.

Not too long ago there was a thread on another GSD forum for this same exact health issue. The owners were looking for a kidney donation for their dog, in hopes to give him a new life. Ultimately, it did not work. Even after the kidney transplant.

An answer on the true severity of the pup's disease is important. It is important not only for treatment, but as a plan to the owners, vet, and overall the quality of life of the dog.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am not sure I would want to know if the treatment expectation is not good. I guess I am one of those who would be reluctant to do invasive diagnostics and put under a dog whose health is compromised. I would prefer to treat aggressively for the worst case scenario and direct my resources into treatment. I would not want a negative prognosis to taint my attitude towards treatment and my time with a dog. Unless the owner wants to try a transplant. Sometimes things do get better in spite of negative predictions.
This is ultimately the decision of the owner.

Turk is absolutely adorable, I hope he continues to improve.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

RebelGSD said:


> I would prefer to treat aggressively for the worst case scenario and direct my resources into treatment.





> An answer on the true severity of the pup's disease is important. It is important not only for treatment, but as a plan to the owners, vet, and overall the quality of life of the dog.


But if Treatment "A" may worsen the condition and that's what you'd do in the "worst case scenario", and Treatment "B" would save the dog's life, or at least prolong it, it's better to find out exactly what the issue is, and the only way to do that is the biopsy.

That's (I'm sure) where this particular vet is headed. I really doubt they'd recommend this procedure if they didn't think it was going to help, diagnostically.

BTW (off topic) I've had a kidney biopsy. The worst part was lying still for the 24hrs. it takes for the kidney to heal up the biopsy place. I had to use a bedpan, even  The next day they did my hematocrit and it had gone down so I got an extra night in the hospital, too 
But overall it was quite painless, which surprised me, and was not really an awful thing to go through. I'd much prefer it to childbirth


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

For my own dog I would demand explanation regarding treatment options A and B for different severity of the disease and the chances that one would hurt and the other cure - before opting for biopsy.

Two days of hospitalization flat in bed sounds pretty horrible, much worse than I thought. I am sure there are worse things, but this sounds bad. I would want to know what kind of cure would it offer the dog if the animal is put through it. I would not be interested in a plan or prognosis, I prefer to take it one day at a time. Others are free to make other choices, of course.

I know that my vet insisted on a liver biopsy for my 12.5 yo dog when it was obvious that his chances were zero. The vet wanted to know the exact diagnosis, I didn't, not at the expense of causing additional pain and distress to my dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

12.5 is a good old age, though, not a 6mos. old puppy...




> Two days of hospitalization flat in bed sounds pretty horrible, much worse than I thought. I am sure there are worse things, but this sounds bad. I would want to know what kind of cure would it offer the dog if the animal is put through it.


The amt. of time one has to be still is 12-24hrs, that's people, not sure about pets.
Of course with humans, you are told you can't get up and that's enforced w/nursing care. 
Not sure about dogs. 
I would want to know about recovery time, though.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wow, you two just can't stop. I also have a very strong opinion about this but it's not my dog, my dime or my call. 

I hope Turk's dad will update the thread and I hope Turk is ok.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I also have a very strong opinion about this but *it's not my dog, my dime or my call.*


This is actually how I feel, too...he should listen to and trust his vet who is _there with the dog_ and sees the condition of the dog, and all the labs.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I was hoping for an update on Turk? How's he doing? What did the vet have to say?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Sorry for not updating, yesterday was an extremely busy day for us. We went to visit Turk like we do everyday. We brought Thor again and the two played outside for almost an hour. Turk has an AWESOME appetite right now. I have never seen him eat like he did. They have him on a kidney safe canned food diet with the phosphorus binder mixed into it. He devoured everything that was put in front of him.

The vet said she did blood work again and his levels are still going down slightly, but looks as though they might be plateauing. Also, they said they were going to start slowing down his fluid intake through the IV because she felt he was getting too much fluids by looking at his red blood cell count (I believe).

We are hoping to be able to bring him home with us either today or tomorrow. Also, the biopsy results will hopefully come in today as well. She will probably call me around 1100am EST to give me an update on him so I will keep you guys posted.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

TurksPapa said:


> Sorry for not updating, yesterday was an extremely busy day for us. We went to visit Turk like we do everyday. We brought Thor again and the two played outside for almost an hour. Turk has an AWESOME appetite right now. I have never seen him eat like he did. They have him on a kidney safe canned food diet with the phosphorus binder mixed into it. He devoured everything that was put in front of him.
> 
> The vet said she did blood work again and his levels are still going down slightly, but looks as though they might be plateauing. Also, they said they were going to start slowing down his fluid intake through the IV because she felt he was getting too much fluids by looking at his red blood cell count (I believe).
> 
> We are hoping to be able to bring him home with us either today or tomorrow. Also, the biopsy results will hopefully come in today as well. She will probably call me around 1100am EST to give me an update on him so I will keep you guys posted.


Oh, I so hope he does get to come home and be with his family! Please let us know what the biopsy says as well.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We are hoping to be able to bring him home with us either today or tomorrow. Also, the biopsy results will hopefully come in today as well. She will probably call me around 1100am EST to give me an update on him so I will keep you guys posted.


This is great news!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounding good! will keep fingers crossed for good biopsy results!


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Well, today is the day I have been waiting for, for the last week and a half. Unfortunately, it is a bitter sweet day. 

Bad News first: biopsy came back and his condition is congenital. Turk was born with this condition and it will never get better. Also they said his kidneys are considered "severe" which means less than 25% functional. There is no guarantee as to how long Turk will be able to hold on. However, we are going to all we can to make whatever life our little boy has left, the best we can. 

Good News: Turk is coming home with us this afternoon after a week and a half, and an obscene vet bill. My wife and I are so excited to have our family back together. 

I asked the Vet before about MDR1 and she said all of their treatments have been safe for an MDR1 positive dog. She told me we could test for it, but of we keep his diet and treatments MDR1 safe anyway then there is no point. 

Turk has taken a real liking to the Hill prescription kidney safe canned food they have been feeding him at the Vet. We are going to start him on that but I am open for suggestions as to what would be kidney healthy for our boy to give him the best fighting chance. Thanks for everyone's input, thoughts, prayers, and support over the last week and a half. We really appreciate it. I just hope we can give him a longer life than expected. 


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Very sorry to hear this. I hope you have contacted the breeder. She needs to know.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Remember that if they recommend extra fluids for him, you can buy bags of fluids from the vet, and give the fluids sub-cutaneously (under the skin).

Your vet should be able to show you how to do it. It's really not painful, about like a vaccination. 

I'm sorry he's sick, but I'm glad you have answers. I pray he's able to live a full life with you and you're able to care for him at home


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Awww, I am so sorry, but so glad he is home with you. From everything I understand kidney disease is not painful, and the body sensation that goes with it is more tingly. 

I would definitely check in with the person Ruth suggested, and would join that K9 Kidneys Yahoo group. They will be able to give you some tips. 

-->I would also go through this thread and copy and paste the various links that make sense to use, into a word document so that you have them in one easy to find location. <---

I will add one more: Iris - IRIS (International Renal Interest Society) is supposed to be more for vet use, but has some good info. 

He is SUCH a cute boy! You've done an amazing job of advocating and helping him. I hope you are rewarded with some very good times and memories with him. Unlike the rest of us, who often forget that we are only given these friends for a short time, you will know and enjoy and treasure things that we probably miss.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I am happy that he will be able to come home to you. I am so sorry about the bad news, but at least he will be with you guys and happy.

Like msvette said, have the vets teach you how to administer fluids. It cuts the costs greatly if you learn how to do it at home. The amount will fluctuate as he gets older and adds weight.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> From everything I understand kidney disease is not painful, and the body sensation that goes with it is more tingly.


The main thing w/kidney disease is the toxins in the blood. If they follow a special diet with the pup, his body won't have to work so hard, and toxins won't build up so fast.
We saw nausea and vomiting with our kidney patient foster dog. We did not know anything about it then, but learned a ton. 

The dog will have increased thirst because the toxins aren't being removed by the kidneys, the byproducts of living, that is, circulate in the bloodstream, making the dog feel they must drink water - and lots of it.

When they do, the urine is very dilute as the kidneys aren't functioning correctly.

There's probably message boards and e-support lists for kidney patient, Turks, if you can get on one, that'd be most helpful I am sure.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am sorry that the biopsy results are not better, I hope he can be maintained at the current level for a very long time. What a beautiful puppy!

I was wondering whether this is a condition that could improve with stem cell treatment. It worked miracles for the neurological problems of my dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Please read this:

I am a certified Animal Care technician currently working in a pet store setting, I recently had a woman come in to pick up an order for her dog. Her dog is experiencing kidney failure, and a switch of food and change to overall diet made a HUGE difference and her dog is doing amazingly well. The dog is energetic, seemingly healthy and very happy.

She switched her dog off kibble entirely and is feeding this:
Product Listing

Canine Life, kidney formula.

She adds more protein to up it to %18 and adds crushed egg shell (calcium, LITTLE TO NO PHOSPHORUS!). Her holistic vet helped work this out for her.

She told me to recommend this diet to any dog with kidney issues, the success she had with her dog is amazing. I highly recommend looking into it.


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

There is a yahoo group called k9kidneydiets that has a wealth of information. 
Best of luck!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

oh I was hoping for better news, but I am glad he's coming home which I'm sure he and you all will be happy about.

I'm so glad the vet was "up" on the MDR1 kudos to them! Take it one day at a time, hang in there, will be keeping fingers crossed diet helps manage this .


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

How is Turk today? Did he get to come home yet?


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

Turk is doing great right now. We brought him home yesterday. For right now we are doing the Hill prescription kidney canned diet. We are also giving him 500mL of Sub-Q fluids a day along with as much water as he can drink. 

I am looking into everyone's links and ideas as far as kidney friendly meals. 

Thor was all smiles when his brother came home as well. 


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear that Turk is home and happy! 

Please go back in this thread and take a look at the thread that I linked to on this board. It gives some good supplements. Also, be sure to join the Yahoo k9 kidney group. You can learn a lot there just from reading and it's nice to have the support of other people going through the same thing. 

I hope he continues to hold steady for a long time! Enjoy your precious pup!


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

I emailed the breeder earlier this week and she got back to me. She was extremely apologetic and is going to refund me in full for Turk. She also told me that Turks mother is spayed now. 

Update on Turk himself: the little guy is eating like a CHAMP. He never used to eat much and now it's as if he's always hungry. This makes me so happy because now we can put some meat on those bones. 

The daily IVs are going well. It scared the crap out of me the first time I had to give him his 500mL but he takes it like a champ. We take Turk back in on Wednesday to get his kidney levels checked again so I will keep you posted on how that turns out.

The photo was taken this morning while getting ready for work. I caught him sleeping on our bed. I couldn't get mad because he is so **** adorable. 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what a nice thing for the breeder to do, I'm sure there are some that wouldn't even respond

Turk looks quite comfy on the bed)) Glad to hear he's eating good, feeling good and hoping for many good days/months/years to come! 

Keep us updated


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm so glad Turk is doing well! He does look adorable on your bed.  Please keep us updated on his progress.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Great news! I agree that it was very nice of the breeder to refund your money, which will help with some of the vet bills. You're doing an outstanding job taking care of Big Turk


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm glad to hear he's doing well! What a trooper 

I agree that it was very nice of the breeder to refund your money, and also to assure you that the mother is now spayed. They sound very responsible and caring


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

TurksPapa said:


> I emailed the breeder earlier this week and she got back to me. She was extremely apologetic and is going to refund me in full for Turk. She also told me that Turks mother is spayed now.
> 
> Update on Turk himself: the little guy is eating like a CHAMP. He never used to eat much and now it's as if he's always hungry. This makes me so happy because now we can put some meat on those bones.
> 
> ...


This is great news! A puppy or dog suffering from kidney failure often has no appetite from the toxins circulating in their blood so you're headed in the right direction, for sure 
It's also great to hear about the breeder refunding your money, it's not something I hear of much!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Drat! I was hoping for something easier, too. 
My wonderful street stray developed kidney issues as an old girl (13 or 14). The vet gave me a recipie for a home prepared diet. I made it in bulk and froze that that I wouldn't be feeding in the next couple of days. It had rice/or bread, chopped boiled eggs and a bunch of other stuff. She loved it. It wasn't expensive to make and it seemed to help her.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Does anyone know what happened to Turk?


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## Beachlover (Jul 2, 2017)

Hi....I was also following this post....any updates? I was really praying for the little guy!


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