# My GSD attacked me, twice



## Cyndi21

I'm wondering if anyone here has been bitten by their dog, seemingly unprovoked. My 2 year old GSD has gone into a rage twice. The first time I was putting salve on his sore elbow. The last time was yesterday around 3 other dogs that he only sees ocassionally. It starts with a deep growl and then he lunges at my arms, biting me repeatedly. He acts like he's in a frenzy when it happens. Shortly afterward he is fine, like nothing happened. He only attacks me. The rest of the time he's a wonderful dog, very loving and obedient. I have pictures of my arms, showing the damage, but wasn't sure if I could post them here, since they're a bit graphic. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Also, he is getting neutered tomorrow. We're hoping that helps.


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## CactusWren

I'm sorry that happened to you. I wouldn't say that Jupiter has ever attacked me, but in some circumstances, it seems he has a switch flipped, and you could describe that as a sort of frenzy. If he jumps on something, it sometimes makes him very excitable, and he'll vocalize and try to grab my arm. Never broken the skin. He also has a habit of getting whipped up it's lunchtime (for me, not him--he eats afterwards), and I go to turn on the stereo in the living room. When it ends, usually because of being distracted or simply me going to the other room, it ends as quickly as it started.


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## Cyndi21

Thank you CactusWren. I wish I could pick up on the signals before he attacks.


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## David Winners

Cyndi21 said:


> I'm wondering if anyone here has been bitten by their dog, seemingly unprovoked. My 2 year old GSD has gone into a rage twice. The first time I was putting salve on his sore elbow. The last time was yesterday around 3 other dogs that he only sees ocassionally. It starts with a deep growl and then he lunges at my arms, biting me repeatedly. He acts like he's in a frenzy when it happens. Shortly afterward he is fine, like nothing happened. He only attacks me. The rest of the time he's a wonderful dog, very loving and obedient. I have pictures of my arms, showing the damage, but wasn't sure if I could post them here, since they're a bit graphic. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Also, he is getting neutered tomorrow. We're hoping that helps.


These are not unprovoked, though I can understand that you feel they are not justified. Touching a painful location. 

What was happening with these 3 dogs?

Redirection is a thing, but to begin to understand it, you must look at things from the point of view of the dog.

Can you shoot some video of you going through some OB?


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## Sabis mom

Yes I've been bitten by my own dogs. David is right, they are not unprovoked but it can take an outside look to see the signals. It's scary and our brains expect our dogs to be more in control for some reason.


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## selzer

If he is causing blood and bruising to you, I think the best thing to do is find a trainer/behaviorist in your area that is well versed with German Shepherd Dogs and if leadership needs to be improved upon, you might have a chance. Otherwise, you if you don't want to put the dog down, then you will have to adjust what you expect out of your dog. Being in a group of 4 dogs (including him), maybe playing with ANY outside of your pack dog may have to stop. If the dog needs to have medicine on an ouch-y spot, muzzle him first, and when he calms down, then remove the muzzle. The problem with a dog like this is that you don't know all of his triggers yet. If he will bite you, then whenever you have people outside of your family in your home for any reason, securely crate the dog in a room where no one can go, if that means locking that door or the basement door, then lock it. Because if the dog is willing to bite you, he'll bite someone he doesn't know quicker. And as preventative measure, muzzle him at the vet. Chances are he is going to have a sensitive spot probed at some point and you want for him to be safe. And, every time he wins by biting, it makes biting more of a way to make unpleasant things go away. So, if he bites the vet tech, and the vet tech eventually hands him back, biting worked. So get out in front of that and just muzzle him. 

Again, I think the best thing to hope for is that your dog for some reason, thinks that you are easy, not a disciplinarian, and he can get what he wants by biting if it's you, whereas if it is your spouse or parent, he realizes that is going to happen. In that case, some non-confrontational changes in behavior toward on your part, might change his behavior toward you. If he is just very sensitive to pain, and fearful in a group situation and his fear-response is to direct aggression toward you, then management is your hope, I think. But you really need to get him assessed by someone who knows what he/she is doing. 

On the other hand, if we are talking about marks rather than punctures, than even in a charged situation -- pain or multiple dog get me out here anxiety -- he would showing extreme bite inhibition, which would communicating on his part, and he would just need to be trained to not do that. A good trainer/behaviorist should be able to help.


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## herojig

Sabis mom said:


> Yes I've been bitten by my own dogs. David is right, they are not unprovoked but it can take an outside look to see the signals. It's scary and our brains expect our dogs to be more in control for some reason.


I remember asking the very excellent vet here, "how many times has a dog bitten u" and he just laughed: "uncountable." One might think he might be an awful vet then, but no, he's Nepal's true dog whisperer, imo. He gets down on their level and _communicates_ with them, like I try to do everyday to every dog i know.

*Dog talk* does not follow the same reasoning or logic as people talk, this I've noticed over a lifetime. We have hands and words, they move ears and tail and fur and eyes to do the same thing. Dog talk is_ subtle and nuanced_, unlike people talk, which for the most part is diarrhea of the mouth. Dogs are more controlled in their "language" in the sense they are not barking for their health - a bark means something; and is not utter nonsense, unlike our own social media. 

*Cat talk* is the same, only perhaps even more nuanced, so much so you might need a lab to figure it all out. For the most part, as mentioned above, "the talk" is there, we just refuse to listen or we are too busy to notice. For example, our cat hates Bernie, who is an outdoor dog mostly because of that animosity. Yet even the slightest sight of a dog in the window will turn Mimo from fluffy house cat to dangerous lioness with needles for teeth and razor blades for claws. To the unsuspecting, such as a passerby or the inattentive pet owner, these reactions to what we see as normal calm situations can be easily overlooked, with sharp consequences. 

*Animal talk* as a_ collective activity_ is real, and expressed beyond our sight and senses for most of the day. Learning this universal unspoken mode of comms isn't easy for humans, for sure, for example, I can't even speak Nepali after being here for 20 years... but after only a few months of getting down in the dirt with everyone here, we were communicating just fine, especially for the basics like food, water, shelter and love. 

Let me end this _was comment-now-weird lecture_ to say, perhaps getting down into the dirt with your companions is a good idea, despite the advice from the most-highly paid trainers that I know. Perhaps having your spouse of other loved one feed u like a dog, _down with the dogs_, with help anyone learn the lingo faster. Maybe setting up a tent for the dogs, and then _sleeping with dogs_, will help do the same? 

I'm going to give that a shot soon, but Bernie and I will have to have a "talk" first, before he's even letting me in...


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## Sunflowers

When working on a sore spot, definitely muzzle first, do what you need to do, then have a great treat ready as you remove the muzzle. When dogs feel acute pain, their instinct is to bite the source, to make the pain go away.
As far as the three dog incident, no idea, because we don’t know enough to make any kind of guess as to why he went into bite mode.


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## selzer

I don't know. As the first Kojak puppies matured, a couple of them gave some of my more experienced owners trouble. And the one, who is an obedience trainer, and shows, and got a dog of my from Jenna and Gispo's first litter up into Utility, her pup out of Kojak and Bear (Jenna/Gispo pup) was giving serious trouble, and she got him neutered and a few months later, she told me she got her puppy back. It made all the difference. The dog was 2 when they neutered him. 

The other male in this litter I gave to another trainer, who trains to invisible fences as his day job, and who I've had several dogs assessed by before rehoming, and I thought that would be good. The guy was giving Sherry a home, Sherry was going to die, according to all the vets. She was a Bear/Mufasa pup who has a terrible heart condition that they said was inoperable. At 10 months, this was discovered, so he was just going to keep her to give her the best life as possible. And a few years later, when Kojak/Bear's first litter happened, I gave them Teaser because they were taking care of that girl who was going to die. And the guy really liked Kojak, when I first got him. He was taking Sherry to fire departments to demo oxygen masks. And he and his son, had a business with dogs and it seemed a good placement. Unfortunately, that wasn't stable, and the dogs went back and forth between him and my friend Teresa. Finally Sherry was rehomed to another family, and she is still alive and they took her to another vet hoping that they were just wrong, but they can't figure out why she is still alive, she is six I think. Deef is back with the dog trainer. He is 3, and over the first three years, he bit several people. They finally neutered him, and a few months later they tell me he is night and day different. 

Maybe neutering, removing the testosterone, in some cases does make a huge difference. Maybe having dogs that have the goods to be police dogs, for people who generally have obedience/show-type dogs is too much when they got those hormones going full strength. I don't know. So if it comes down to putting the dog down or neutering, I would give neutering a try, noting that the testosterone remains for a month or so.


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## tim_s_adams

Sorry, but if you have to remove body parts from a dog to get them to stop biting you (a) the dog has a neurological problem, or (b) you have a serious relationship problem with your dog!

I do agree that if it's a question of euthanizing versus neutering I'd go with neutering. But it's sad that that particular choice is seen as the only choices available!

OP, hire a competent, balanced, GSD experienced trainer or behaviorist to reinvent your relationship with this dog. Somehow, I don't believe that it's all on the dog...


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## selzer

tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry, but if you have to remove body parts from a dog to get them to stop biting you (a) the dog has a neurological problem, or (b) you have a serious relationship problem with your dog!
> 
> I do agree that if it's a question of euthanizing versus neutering I'd go with neutering. But it's sad that that particular choice is seen as the only choices available!
> 
> OP, hire a competent, balanced, GSD experienced trainer or behaviorist to reinvent your relationship with this dog. Somehow, I don't believe that it's all on the dog...


I never have, yet. 

But the first pup/owner I really believe that the woman knew what she was doing and was doing it right. 
The second pup/owner, I know that pup was bounced back and forth and had several homes because the guy his kid lost their house and moved in with girlfriend, then with parents, and I heard some disquieting things about the pup's environment from 8 weeks on through year 1. So, I don't know. Kojak has his parts, and will never bite me. When he was two a bitch's owner took him to be collected and then the dog bred naturally to the bitch and he was brought home the next day, no issue. The day I let him take the dog I lost Ninja and couldn't have taken the dog to get that done on the same day. I have Kaiah out of that breeding, great bitch. A few years later, same guy, I couldn't lift the dog into his vehicle so he did it. Took the dog to his house, he bred his bitch, he let the dog sleep in the room with his brother, and the dog bit his brother. I wasn't there. What to you do when the dog has never done anything in your presence and something like that is reported to you? Never let your dog go anywhere without you again? Probably. This dog is the sire of a working police dog. He's not good with male dogs, but again, I have no fear of him. I have taken him on leash, to meet numerous puppy buyers, with no issues. I've taken him to classes with no problem save carsickness as a puppy. I am just saying that some of the owners of his male pups have had an easier time after neutering. They geld stallions and alter beef cattle to make them easier to manage, and it works. You don't have steer riding, it's bull riding. A LOT of race horses are gelded, and you would think if you had a winning race horse, you might want to breed it, the only reason you might geld a racing prospect is if it is more intent on fighting than on racing, or if it is unmanageable to the stable staff. It must work, else their wouldn't be any geldings racing.


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## Cyndi21

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments. A few more things...my husband brought our GSD Blue home when he was a pup. He had one years ago and just fell in love with the breed. This is my first GSD, so I was sceptical especially since the only dog that bit me prior to Blue was a GSD. I was 6 years old. Luckily, it was just a nip.
I know that I have a lot to learn about GSD's. I've only had labs, a cocker spaniel, and a doberman previously. They were all good dogs, no biting. I took Blue to puppy training classes for 12 weeks. The only issue he had was when they let all the pups run around for social time, Blue would try to run away and hide from them. This was concerning to the trainer. I will be taking him back for aggression training as soon as he's healed from his surgery.
As far as the incidents when Blue bit me, the first was because I touched a sore spot. That was my fault. Now, my husband can do the same thing and Blue is fine. But, he can read Blue much better than I can.
The second time he was very excited. But he quickly lied down and let me scratch his belly. One of the other dogs came over and wanted to be petted too. I was leery but Blue seemed ok with it. He even licked Penny's ear, but then he put his entire mouth over hers. He could have swallowed her head. He's 110 lbs, she's about 15 lbs. Anyway, I pushed her away, got Blue to stand and as I was leading him back outside, he attacked me. My screams brought the other 2 dogs into the room. My mother in law was trying to pull Blue off of me by pulling at his collar. It didn't work and just made him more aggressive. Also, the first 2 days we were there (dogsitting while my MIL went on vacation), Blue attacked the other two dogs, one of them 3 times, the other one once. He has also attacked our other dog 3-4 times. It was usually food related. She's a 15 year redbone.
I love Blue very much and when things are good with us which is most of the time, it's wonderful. I just want to get him the training he needs and deserves.
Sorry this is so long. Hope it sheds a little more light.Thank you for reading it!


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## Cyndi21

Blue boy with one of his favorite toys.


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## middleofnowhere

Too many dogs involved with this person. (OP) The dynamic is not good. The second scene sounds particularly chaotic. To be kind, I'll say management is lacking and let it go.


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## selzer

Cyndi21 said:


> Thanks everyone for your helpful comments. A few more things...my husband brought our GSD Blue home when he was a pup. He had one years ago and just fell in love with the breed. This is my first GSD, so I was sceptical especially since the only dog that bit me prior to Blue was a GSD. I was 6 years old. Luckily, it was just a nip.
> I know that I have a lot to learn about GSD's. I've only had labs, a cocker spaniel, and a doberman previously. They were all good dogs, no biting. I took Blue to puppy training classes for 12 weeks. The only issue he had was when they let all the pups run around for social time, Blue would try to run away and hide from them. This was concerning to the trainer. I will be taking him back for aggression training as soon as he's healed from his surgery.
> As far as the incidents when Blue bit me, the first was because I touched a sore spot. That was my fault. Now, my husband can do the same thing and Blue is fine. But, he can read Blue much better than I can.
> The second time he was very excited. But he quickly lied down and let me scratch his belly. One of the other dogs came over and wanted to be petted too. I was leery but Blue seemed ok with it. He even licked Penny's ear, but then he put his entire mouth over hers. He could have swallowed her head. He's 110 lbs, she's about 15 lbs. Anyway, I pushed her away, got Blue to stand and as I was leading him back outside, he attacked me. My screams brought the other 2 dogs into the room. My mother in law was trying to pull Blue off of me by pulling at his collar. It didn't work and just made him more aggressive. Also, the first 2 days we were there (dogsitting while my MIL went on vacation), Blue attacked the other two dogs, one of them 3 times, the other one once. He has also attacked our other dog 3-4 times. It was usually food related. She's a 15 year redbone.
> I love Blue very much and when things are good with us which is most of the time, it's wonderful. I just want to get him the training he needs and deserves.
> Sorry this is so long. Hope it sheds a little more light.Thank you for reading it!


Ok, an attack is something where the hormones, I think, are effected. Adrenalin. I don't know. But they are heightened, and this does not go down for a couple of days. So putting the dog together with other dogs right away like that, was going to have another fight. Several. I am sorry, but you may have a dog that shouldn't be around other dogs. Usually males are ok, even if they fight at one point. But some dogs are never ok with other dogs. You have a dog that redirect his aggression on to you when he is in a scenario where a fight is imminent. Don't go there. It isn't that hard. You keep your dog away from other dogs, to keep yourself safe. To keep him safe. To keep other dogs safe. And your 15 year old redbone, she is too **** old to be recovering from dog fights. 

I tell you what to do. If you have a garage or basement, get 2 5'x10' kennels and set them up downstairs or in the garage. Put a nice cot in there for the redbone. If the redbone grazes, then she will need to have her food in the kennel. The GSD should ONLY be fed in his kennel. Put his food down and let him have it and leave him in there with the kennel door shut. Your hound dog can be out when he is kenneled. When you put her in her kennel, you can then let the other dog out. It's called musical crates. I think crates are a little too confining. A kennel gives enough room for the dog to have a cot, to have food and water. And maybe for some safe toys or chews. Right now your allegiance is too that old dog, and it is criminal to let the other dog attack her. Once she passes, then you can maybe put the two kennels together to make one big one and put the dog in there when you have company. And if you can't keep your dog at home, and still take care of them while pet sitting, say no. Because no one wants to have their dog killed, and you don't want your dog to kill another dog. And what are you going to do if he does become intent on killing one of those other dogs. How will you stop him? How will you perceive him if he does kill one of the other dogs? Can you still love your dog if you know he killed another dog? It's a question. Lots of people could not separated canine from human and attribute a lot of human-attributes to dogs, and if the dog acts like a dog, one that doesn't want other dogs around, can you separate all that in your mind? German Shepherd Dogs are not generally so dog aggressive that they kill other dogs. Bitches sometimes do. They are certainly capable of it, and some dogs might kill another dog either deliberately or by accident. It is up to us, the humans to prevent that from happening.


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## tim_s_adams

Cyndi21 said:


> Blue boy with one of his favorite toys.


From that picture I'd have to say that clearly your dog is a mix, not a GSD entirely. Do you know his parentage?


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## Cyndi21

tim_s_adams said:


> From that picture I'd have to say that clearly your dog is a mix, not a GSD entirely. Do you know his parentage?


No, I don't know his parentage. My husband said he's a blue shepherd, which is rare, but it's not a defect. If you Google it, you'll find dogs that look just like him, with blue eyes. I've said that he might be part something else though, and would like his DNA tested.


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## Cyndi21

selzer said:


> Ok, an attack is something where the hormones, I think, are effected. Adrenalin. I don't know. But they are heightened, and this does not go down for a couple of days. So putting the dog together with other dogs right away like that, was going to have another fight. Several. I am sorry, but you may have a dog that shouldn't be around other dogs. Usually males are ok, even if they fight at one point. But some dogs are never ok with other dogs. You have a dog that redirect his aggression on to you when he is in a scenario where a fight is imminent. Don't go there. It isn't that hard. You keep your dog away from other dogs, to keep yourself safe. To keep him safe. To keep other dogs safe. And your 15 year old redbone, she is too **** old to be recovering from dog fights.
> 
> I tell you what to do. If you have a garage or basement, get 2 5'x10' kennels and set them up downstairs or in the garage. Put a nice cot in there for the redbone. If the redbone grazes, then she will need to have her food in the kennel. The GSD should ONLY be fed in his kennel. Put his food down and let him have it and leave him in there with the kennel door shut. Your hound dog can be out when he is kenneled. When you put her in her kennel, you can then let the other dog out. It's called musical crates. I think crates are a little too confining. A kennel gives enough room for the dog to have a cot, to have food and water. And maybe for some safe toys or chews. Right now your allegiance is too that old dog, and it is criminal to let the other dog attack her. Once she passes, then you can maybe put the two kennels together to make one big one and put the dog in there when you have company. And if you can't keep your dog at home, and still take care of them while pet sitting, say no. Because no one wants to have their dog killed, and you don't want your dog to kill another dog. And what are you going to do if he does become intent on killing one of those other dogs. How will you stop him? How will you perceive him if he does kill one of the other dogs? Can you still love your dog if you know he killed another dog? It's a question. Lots of people could not separated canine from human and attribute a lot of human-attributes to dogs, and if the dog acts like a dog, one that doesn't want other dogs around, can you separate all that in your mind? German Shepherd Dogs are not generally so dog aggressive that they kill other dogs. Bitches sometimes do. They are certainly capable of it, and some dogs might kill another dog either deliberately or by accident. It is up to us, the humans to prevent that from happening.


You're absolutely correct on all counts. The aggression didn't start until he was about 1 year old. He just turned 2. He hasn't attacked our redbone in about 6 months. We feed them separately and take them outside separately. Half the time they sleep together during the day.They sleep separately at night. As far as the other dogs at my MIL's house, this was the first time he ever attacked any of them. I'm the only human he's attacked. Fortunately we had the appointment set for his neutering yesterday. Going forward we are taking all necessary precautions. He won't be around any other dogs, except the redbone from now on. The ONLY time he has ever attacked her is food related, and that situation has been fixed. I'm also taking him for aggression training. If that doesn't work, we will seriously have to consider euthanizing him. Thank you again for your advice. It is much appreciated.


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## K9WolfAlpha

I have never in my life been attacked/bit by my own dogs. Not a foster pup, nothing. That's a serious problem and likely the breeder didn't go over the mom/dad paperwork or look into the behavior, you didn't ask the breeder if her other pups bit anyone, correct? This is likely a redirect issue. Someone is approaching or dogs get him excited so he turns to the nearest (usually another dog) and the excitement causes them to bite each other. Your own dog and others in this litter have genetic problems. *Those two dogs should never be bred with each other again*. This is what happens when a breeder isn't experienced with lineage, or getting the dogs titles or tested for breeding purposes. Working dogs work. They need more exercise than most other breeds. A tired dog is a good dog. 
Even a CGC would help but breeder needs a German judge to make the determination whether her dogs should be bred or not. I'm in the 'not' category.

Only serious bite I got I was fostering an adult dog because a family was moving. The dog had serious food issues, he had always been fed in a crate. If you left him out and went near his food-good freaking luck to your fingers or hand. This rescue asked me to watch Cesar undo food aggression on his videos. I did everything he did except he never returned that dog to its owner he kept it and traded for a calmer dog. The stuff he did, the dog was restrained, then he fooled around moving the bowl so I did that. Eventually I had the mental case loose after 5 months of REtraining, he *seemed* much better. But he really didn't want the food to move away from him and when I withdrew it he bit me really good and wouldn't let go. I grabbed his neck fur and swung him into a crate where he detached, I screamed at him, he growled at me. I then called the rescue and said get this jerk out of my house NOW. He wasn't a pure shepherd and not well trained and I hate him. LOL


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## GSD07

^^ You really well deserved that bite, I don’t even know what to say. You abused the dog by doing this stuff to him. I’m sure the hate was mutual and hopefully the dog found a more experienced foster and home. 

OP, be careful with the “aggression” training. I suggest you better consider rehoming the dog. So many things were done not right, starting from the puppy classes where all the pups were let loose to run around... Don’t go to that trainer again.


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## GSD07

I was able to find a relevant old thread with good advice Dangerous Aggression -- Fearing the Worst (LONG) . Note what Slamdunc mentioned about the dog being aggressive to pain, tantrums etc. I’m not saying you can do training by yourself but just so educate yourself and understand what your trainer will try to accomplish.


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## Cyndi21

GSD07 said:


> I was able to find a relevant old thread with good advice Dangerous Aggression -- Fearing the Worst (LONG) . Note what Slamdunc mentioned about the dog being aggressive to pain, tantrums etc. I’m not saying you can do training by yourself but just so educate yourself and understand what your trainer will try to accomplish.


Thank you so much for sharing. I read the whole story. Ninja sounds eerily similar to our Blue boy. Just heartbreaking. I'm crying like a baby now. Will post later. Again, thank you for sharing.


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## Bearshandler

The dog doesn’t sound bad. It is natural for a dog to want to bite you if your causing pain, that usually doesn’t happen if you have a good relationship with the dog. I would recommend you take a look at your regular interactions with the dog. If the dog is on the couch and you ask him to move what happens?


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## K9WolfAlpha

GSD07 said:


> ^^ You really well deserved that bite, I don’t even know what to say. You abused the dog by doing this stuff to him. I’m sure the hate was mutual and hopefully the dog found a more experienced foster and home.
> 
> OP, be careful with the “aggression” training. I suggest you better consider rehoming the dog. So many things were done not right, starting from the puppy classes where all the pups were let loose to run around... Don’t go to that trainer again.


What STUFF??? In other words DO NOT OBEY the rescue? Do not think Cesar has any training experience? Abuse? He was restrained, I gave him some food then moved it away so he understood he was not the boss, Are you the boss in your house? It doesn't sound like it.
I said* I never had a dog that bit.* Doing the Cesar crap was the idea of the rescue NOT MINE. I never would have let him be out of a crate when eating if I had my way.


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## Cyndi21

Bearshandler said:


> The dog doesn’t sound bad. It is natural for a dog to want to bite you if your causing pain, that usually doesn’t happen if you have a good relationship with the dog. I would recommend you take a look at your regular interactions with the dog. If the dog is on the couch and you ask him to move what happens?


He's perfectly fine if I ask him to move. In fact, in the middle of the night I've woken him when walking around him and he just gets up. No growling or anything. It's when I step on his paw or tail by accident that he gets upset. He might yelp, then he growls and starts circling me, like he's herding me. I talk sweetly to him and either distract him with a toy or let him outside. So, we thought when he attacks me that it's because I hurt him. Apparently if he's in a stressful situation, like with the other dogs, he can attack me as well. Hopefully the trainer will help us so this doesn't happen again. Each attack is more vicious than the last. Next time I could lose a finger, or worse.


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## Sunflowers

How many times did this stepping on him occur?
And he has no business being a jerk, even if you did step on him. If you talk sweetly and reward with toys when he is exhibiting threatening behavior, this tells him you are weak and emboldens him.


Please get a trainer ASAP.
In the meantime, google NILIF and implement that immediately.


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## Cyndi21

Sunflowers said:


> How many times did this stepping on him occur?
> And he has no business being a jerk, even if you did step on him. If you talk sweetly and reward with toys when he is exhibiting threatening behavior, this tells him you are weak and emboldens him.
> 
> 
> Please get a trainer ASAP.
> In the meantime, google NILIF and implement that immediately.


The last time I reprimanded him for growling at me (after I touched his sore elbow) he attacked and bit me. 
We have an appointment with a wonderful trainer, who came highly recommended. 
Honestly, I think there's something wrong him neurologically, either rage syndrome or hypothyroidism. I hope it's not rage. There's no cure for that.


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## Bearshandler

Cyndi21 said:


> The last time I reprimanded him for growling at me (after I touched his sore elbow) he attacked and bit me.
> We have an appointment with a wonderful trainer, who came highly recommended.
> Honestly, I think there's something wrong him neurologically, either rage syndrome or hypothyroidism. I hope it's not rage. There's no cure for that.


It’s not rage, it’s poor handling and management. If you are going to “reprimand” a dog for growling, you’re asking for a fight. If you ask for that fight, you need to be prepared to win it. I think nilif may be a good place for you to start. You made a mistake in comforting him when he was growling at you. It’s almost like he corrected you and you started showing appeasement behaviors.


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## Cyndi21

Bearshandler said:


> It’s not rage, it’s poor handling and management. If you are going to “reprimand” a dog for growling, you’re asking for a fight. If you ask for that fight, you need to be prepared to win it. I think nilif may be a good place for you to start. You made a mistake in comforting him when he was growling at you. It’s almost like he corrected you and you started showing appeasement behaviors.


Sounds like I need more training than the dog. I'm good with that.


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> Honestly, I think there's something wrong him neurologically, either rage syndrome or hypothyroidism. I hope it's not rage. There's no cure for that.


Ok, google is NOT your friend! 
Honestly, dogs that actually have rage syndrome are rare. Very rare. Yes some dogs are not right in the head, but it isn't as common as google would have you believe and it would have manifested long before now.
I had a dog that was wrong in the head and at six weeks old he would growl, stalk and lunge. At 4 months he took on the neighbors husky. At six months he nearly killed the other neighbors pom. And at 16 months he mauled a person on the street after breaking loose.


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## Cyndi21

Yes, I know rage is very rare. You sound like my husband..."it must be true if you googled it". 🤣


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## GSDchoice

I'm sorry, I don't know much about aggression.

But I've definitely done things (accidentally) that hurt my dog...like stepped on his front paw with my sneaker when putting his leash on, accidentally whacked him in the nose, tripped over him when turning, etc. I always say "Sorry! Sorry!" and he looks at me reproachfully, and I'll pet him or kiss him on the head in apology. That's about it.
I think most dogs do understand about accidents, and don't interpret it as an attack or a threat from their person? 

Your dog growling and circling you after you accidentally stepped on a paw, seems frightening/out of the ordinary to me. Feel like it either signifies something about your relationship with him - OR your dog's innate unstable temperament... Something to figure out...


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## selzer

When you have a dog that you know WILL bite, you don't use physical means to prove that you are the one on top. NILIF is a good starting part. I have never used it completely, but I think parts of it are just natural. That stuff with Cesar, sigh, the dog would bite, and they knew that, and doing a Cesar-crap-training, yeah it can work IF and only if you are already a seasoned dog trainer. Half the crap that guy does, he doesn't even know why or what he is doing until after he did it, then he tells you why he did it after the fact, while he is figuring out what just happened. Because once you are experienced, stuff becomes second nature. And some of that can great stuff, and some of it can be crappy too. But we do stuff without even thinking, then we back through with our mind and realize why we did it and why it worked. One of the biggest things is timing. You don't always have time to say, "and when the dog is doing this, we will do x and follow it by y." No, but Cesar could take a good look at what the dog is doing, and then put dog up and explain what is happening, and what needs to happen/how they are going to work through it. But he doesn't. It's like half of it is seat of the pants crap, and a lot gets edited out. You have to have a certain stature and confidence to go with the timing if you are going to challenge the dog and come out on top. 

GSDs are prone to bloating. We make way too much to do over food. We create food aggression in dogs, by some of the crap that they talking about, giving the dog food and then taking it away. Even making the dog build self control by waiting to get its meal, I think for certain dogs that can increase the value of the food and generate more charge around food. If you have a dog like that, I wouldn't even train with treats. I would give a treat when I felt like it for no reason at all, and once given it would not be fooled with. The same with his food, it gets set down and I would walk away. I would never feed the dog around children or other dogs. I would use toys, a ball, or just voice-praise for training. Most of the people can probably do tricks for treats and training for treats no problem, but if you have that dog who is that food motivated, I would do my darndest to make food no big deal to the dog. It's hard because in training, many trainers rely on high-value treats. You may have to dig deeper into your training toolbox for these dogs. But it will be worth it. 

The thing is, we learn next to nothing from easy dogs. It's the struggle that makes us change, makes us grow, makes us learn, and teaches us deep. You can raise four or five puppies and still be a novice until you get the shy dog, or the fear-aggressive dog, or the dog-aggressive dog, or the fill in the blank dog. And you realize when you look backwards, when that dog is 7 or 9 years old or already gone, how very far he brought you.


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## Cyndi21

GSDchoice said:


> I'm sorry, I don't know much about aggression.
> 
> But I've definitely done things (accidentally) that hurt my dog...like stepped on his front paw with my sneaker when putting his leash on, accidentally whacked him in the nose, tripped over him when turning, etc. I always say "Sorry! Sorry!" and he looks at me reproachfully, and I'll pet him or kiss him on the head in apology. That's about it.
> I think most dogs do understand about accidents, and don't interpret it as an attack or a threat from their person?
> 
> Your dog growling and circling you after you accidentally stepped on a paw, seems frightening/out of the ordinary to me. Feel like it either signifies something about your relationship with him - OR your dog's innate unstable temperament... Something to figure out...


Thank you. And I agree, it is frightening. I've never had another dog act like that. Since the attack in May, we have developed quite a bond, or so I thought. He would follow me everywhere, he lied at my feet, very protective. He listened to me and seemed to have respect again. He was affectionate. We played together every day. Gradually, I started trusting him again. To be clear, my husband is Blue's master. He was always with him. For him to want to be with me more was new for me. Anyway, all that progress went out the door when he attacked me again.
I don't think I made it clear before. He didn't just bite me. He went into an uncontrollable frenzied attack. He mauled my left arm with a bunch of small puncture wounds, two of which bled quite a bit. Three of my fingertips are still numb, so there is probably some nerve damage. My right arm is worse. Two deeper wounds where the skin was ripped back on one and ripped off on the other, so you can see the "meat" underneath. I think that happened because my MIL was trying to pull him off of me, so he became more aggressive.
Another thing, after the attack, I was sitting on the steps outside waiting for husband to bring me wet towels for my arms and Blue comes running up to me, all excited. I remained calm, stood up, arms dripping blood, and he starts the low growl again. He does that just before he attacks. I started calling for my DH, the growling continues, I keep yelling. Thank God he showed up, grabbed Blue's collar, and dragged him away. The whole way Blue was growling, snarling, and jumping. So my DH FINALLY saw first hand what I had been dealing with. I'm convinced something is neurologically wrong with Blue.


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## Verachi

Yikes, I would not trust this dog nor would I want to be around him. Even if you are not the person he is most bonded to, I would never expect behavior like that from one of my dogs towards someone who lives in my house. I would not tolerate living in fear in my own house.

When I still lived with my mom and my sister, none of my dogs ever bonded with them. In fact, they wouldn’t even obey basic commands if it came from my mom or sister’s mouth lol. Never were they ever aggressive to either one of them though. My dogs don’t have to love everyone, but it is a very basic requirement for me that my dogs don’t think they can just go around mauling whoever they aren’t bonded with. I would never tolerate that and it isn’t something I specifically have to teach. This dog seems like he has a crap temperament tbh


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## Steve Strom

Cyndi21 said:


> Sounds like I need more training than the dog. I'm good with that.


Something I think you should consider and keep in mind, there may be no amount of training by you or the greatest trainer in the world that can help this and it doesn't have to be medical or neurologic in any way. I'm a firm believer that you can't change temperament. You can teach obedience and behaviors, but they are what they are.

From a couple of the things you described, I wouldn't rule out him having a certain perception of you generally related to trust and respect, maybe some amount of resentment ( humanized wording, I know) over you and your husband. This could just be his temperament and you may just spend all your time trying to build trust, respect, something like bonding, and still have to walk on egg shells trying to avoid anything that will set him off. What's good about that?


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## Cyndi21

Well, Blue is now locked in his cage. He loves his cage, goes there willingly all the time. We never used it for punishment. Since this morning's incident, he's been locked in there. He was neutered a few days ago and I saw some blood spots on our carpet. I cleaned them with the help from my phone's flashlight app. Blue was in his crate and when I got closer to him to check the rug in front of his crate for blood, he started that low growl and slowly got up. I knew he was coming after me. His cage was unlocked. Thank God dh was there. He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him. He asked me what happened. I said it was the flashlight, wtf? I went outside and cried. When dh came outside, he assured me he was locked in his crate, I told him thank God you were here or he would have attacked me again. He said no he wouldn't. That was the last straw. A bit later I went off on dh. I told him that Blue stays locked up inside or in our fenced in yard at all times when I'm home, because NOW he's completely unpredictable. Well dh tried the same thing with Blue with his flashlight app, and he freaked out. His cage was locked this time. Something is very wrong with Blue. I feel horrible about this entire situation. DH is determined to get to the bottom of this.


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## Sunflowers

Ohhhhh.. he petted him and soothed him after he wanted to go after you?
And how did Blue freak out?
Video would be very useful.


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## Cyndi21

Sunflowers said:


> Ohhhhh.. he petted him and soothed him after he wanted to go after you?
> And how did Blue freak out?
> Video would be very useful.


I know he would have gone after me. Dh doesn't agree. He said he tried to go through the wall and then attacked the cage door. He was also holding Blue but said he wasn't struggling with him. Fear aggression.


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## Sunflowers

II am so confused. How could he be holding him if the cage was locked?

I would do a complete work up on this dog to see if there are any medical issues or any pain that cause these behaviors. Impossible right now because I’m sure he is in pain because he was just neutered. Neutering also causes fluctuations in hormones, until they settle, so he could get worse before he gets better.

If there is no medical issue, then your husband is going to have to open his eyes to certain things and not defend the dog.
I grew up with an aggressive lapdog that my mother always petted and defended after that little beast bit the you know what out of me. She still thinks of that dog fondly, I am just grateful that it wasn’t bigger or it could have done serious damage, as it was, that dog sent me to the ER once.
This is serious and he needs to realize it. In addition, I would not rehome this dog. I feel for you, I really do.


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## Bearshandler

Whether something is wrong with the dog or not, you do not have the home for him.


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## Squidwardp

Look, I'm far, far from an expert, and there are people on this forum who would disagree with me if I said, " A German Shepherd is a medium sized dog with erect ears, developed in late 19th century Germany, with a rhythmic explosive bark, typically coming in brown or reddish and black saddleback, or sable, black or white colors." So take what I say with two shakers of salt. Heck, an entire bag of Morton's salt.

But here goes. GSDs can do real damage when they are biting for keeps. And based on what you describe, he is not just nipping you when you incidentally cause him pain.
And if I follow correctly, he does not only bite when you cause him pain, but sometimes seemingly out of the blue. When I am in my own house, I am rather heedless where I step at times. And I don't have walking lanes as big as golf fairways. Dog's gonna get stepped on from time to time. My bad, big pets, sorry. But you daggone well better not put stitches in my arm. End of story. Period. 

I had one dog with an exceptionally sensitive tail. Go figure. She would yip and make me feel really guilty when I accidentally stepped on it or caught it in the door. But I never had any dog that attacked me in 52 years + of dog owning (and being owned by dogs). And I never would, if they gave me reason to think they would attack me. This dog seems to be sending unmistakeable signals in that direction. Call it temperament, environment, some deficiency you supposedly have as a dog trainer  , but no dog I ever own, or am spiritually "owned by" will ever, ever attack me or a non-threatening family member and keep living in my home.

And while the dog may see threats differently than we do, rest assured, the law in most states only judge's dogs by a strict _reasonable person_ standard. Dog gets loose, goes nuts, harm's someone or even someone's cats, dog, pet chickens, whatever, do you think the dog warden, the police and the civil courts will take in all the debates about training, and who respects who, and so on, Cesar's method vs. Brutus's method and some such? I can promise you in the jurisdictions where I am admitted to practice, the dog will be blamed for harming people or even other dogs without provocation judged by the reasonable person standard, and you, as owned will be liable. 

I don't say this to be mean. I say this because I think I'm giving you good advice, and because some of what is on here seems like victim blaming, training shaming, you can learn from this.
Well, OK, anyone that thinks the dog can be rehabbed ought to put you in touch, today, with someone who can do it. But I would not keep living in the same house with this dog.


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## tim_s_adams

Yep, I would have put this boy to sleep some time ago! What difference as to why he's doing what he's doing what he's doing? He's overstepped and nobody should have to live like this!


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## Biscuit

I have no help but I really feel for you. Make sure you are taking EVERY step to protect yourself. Go through in your head what you do if he manages to bite you again. How do you deal with the immediate situation. 

I really feel for you. Stay safe.


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## Sabis mom

I really hate to ask this. But can you post a pic of these bites? Different people perceive written words in different ways. 
If you are comfortable with it post your location, someone on here might know of a trainer near by. 
No one should live in fear of their own dog, you can tell your husband I said he is being an ass.
I have a rule that states if a companion animal is not capable of being a companion they have lost the right to exist. 
Do whatever you need to do to ensure your safety.


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## Sunflowers

Squidwardp said:


> I don't say this to be mean. I say this because I think I'm giving you good advice, and because some of what is on here seems like victim blaming, training shaming, you can learn from this.
> Well, OK, anyone that thinks the dog can be rehabbed ought to put you in touch, today, with someone who can do it. But I would not keep living in the same house with this dog.


It took several posts from the OP to actually learn of the severity of these attacks.
It is one thing for the dog to be a resource guarding jerk, another for the dog to attack so badly that nerve damage is done and flesh is exposed.

We try to help based on what is presented to us.

If this were my dog, I would be scared to death.

The thing is, we were not there. So I would really hesitate to advise someone to put their dog to sleep. I would want to make sure that dog is OK physically and isn’t just going Cujo because he’s out of his mind.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I don't think I could live with a dog like this, as I am understanding these posts. I'm a super clutz. Fall on, over, step on dogs all the time. The worst response I ever get is an overly dramatic face back at me like "why!?" I always say I'm sorry and they know what it means.

I'm sorry you are going through this.


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## Saphire

I agree with Sunflowers. This dog needs a thorough going over at the vets starting with full thyroid panel and cortisol testing. Both these things can bring about horrific aggression in some dogs. If all health testing comes back normal, there are tough decisions to be made as nobody should be living in fear due to dog aggression.
Hugzzz and kudos to the OP who is looking for help.


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## WNGD

"He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him."

I feel for you but so many mistakes going on here


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## David Winners

I don't believe that this dog will ever work in your home. Unless there is some underlying medical condition, he needs to go. No one in the home is capable of understanding what's going on or how to do anything about it. 

Where are you located?


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## wolfy dog

OP, I am getting the sense that you are looking for justification and approval to give up on this dog. How often have you caused him pain actually? Is that all he knows when you are coming close to him? You must look at him suspiciously fur aggressive behavior which is a red flag to a dog.


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## middleofnowhere

""He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him."

I feel for you but so many mistakes going on here "

I feel for the dog. "so many mistakes" is a kind way to put this.

I get very frustrated reading posts like the OPs.


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## selzer

Ok. Some dogs have been played with laser pointers, and become so fixated on lights or shadows that it becomes a terrible OCD-type thing. Can the flashlight-ap from your phone been causing something like that? If you were hoping that neutering would help, you have to wait until the hormones go down, a month or so to get any benefit from that. 

Have there been a lot of fireworks going off in your area. I wonder if there is something that has your dog constantly on edge with little or no fuse. Fear and pain often are masked by aggression. If there was anything that could explain what is happening, then it could be managed. Like if it is storms or fireworks, you could get a thundershirt or heavily sedate the dog during the days when fireworks are bad. You could manage it. And we get that. We would hope that there was something that could explain the behavior, so it could be managed appropriately, and the dog wouldn't have to be euthanized.

Yes, there is a possibility that you will never know why this is happening. The blanket brain tumor. Yes, a brain tumor can cause a dog to react with aggression. And yes dogs can get tumors up and down their spines and into their brains. It's kind of a worst-case scenario, because there is no help for that, you'd have to put the dog down, but you would know why the behavior happened. I think you said the dog is two? See that is a time when a lot of dogs do get too big for their britches, or their adult temperament comes in. I don't know, but it is a time when lots of people give up their dogs. So is yours one of the few that has a medical reason for the behavior, or one where the dog has found over and over again that he gets what he wants when he aggresses, and so the aggression is getting worse and worse. 

I am sorry you are going through this.


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## tim_s_adams

At the end of the day, medical condition or not, how could the OP ever feel comfortable around this dog ever again?

I know it's hard, and I know it's hard to say, but it's a dog! They bring us such joy and constant love and obedience and pleasure.

This dog, IMHO, has to go! And unfortunately, you cannot pass him off to another party - even with a signed acceptance of liability - without being legally responsible to some degree, in most places!

Let him go! Sorry to have to say that, I know it's difficult, but in this situation it's the best solution for all IMHO. For what that's worth...


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## Sabis mom

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I am getting the sense that you are looking for justification and approval to give up on this dog. How often have you caused him pain actually? Is that all he knows when you are coming close to him? You must look at him suspiciously fur aggressive behavior which is a red flag to a dog.


Uncalled for and unfair. I don't care what the OP is doing, nothing in a normal life should be causing a stable dog to attack it's owner. Ever. And no one should have to tip toe around their own home for fear of the dog. 
Baring a medical issue, the dog needs to go. And maybe even then, because really who wants to live with a dog that attacked them.


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## Roscoe618

I am very sorry the OP is going through this. And it breaks my heart to say this, but if I was the husband this dog would have been gone a long time ago!! He is no longer a dog! He is a liability!! This dog is no longer living a happy life. And neither is the family.

This brings tears to my eye, because I have gone through this and fully feel for the upside down dynamics in the house with a situation like this. A very heart breaking situation.

To the OP, feel free to PM me if you want to discuss my situation and what I had to do.

Again sorry for you, your husband, and the poor dog. Prayers to you all 🙏


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## Davycc

Just after Christmas we adopted a blind rescue dog from from Greece. We waited 6 weeks for him to arrive in England. I then took an overnight ferry to collect him returning on the next ferry. He seemed like he was settling in really well until one day he snapped at my partner as she passed him on the floor. We put it down to him being blind and he'd been scared by her passing by. But later that day he did the same with myself but actually caught my hand and held on biting down. I did stay calm and managed to get my hand free but he lunged again but missed and kept snapping in my direction. I was now concerned, we have small grandkids that visit and who were used to Max our last dog being a pillow for them to lie against. The next day he bit at my partners leg then broke skin on her forearm as she tried to move away.

Decision - I was on the ferry the next day with the dog back to the centre, neither I and especially my partner could trust him, we could not live in that situation. Did we fail, most likely yes, we brought the wrong dog to the wrong environment where we couldn't/didn't have the time or resources to try to resolve the issues. I cried like a child as I handed him back because I felt we let him down.

The fella, Bruno he was called is now apparently living happily with a farmer who lives alone who has several other dogs. he fits in there, he didn't fit with us. I don't think this dog fits with you either. Sorry


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sabis mom said:


> Uncalled for and unfair. I don't care what the OP is doing, nothing in a normal life should be causing a stable dog to attack it's owner. Ever. And no one should have to tip toe around their own home for fear of the dog.
> Baring a medical issue, the dog needs to go. And maybe even then, because really who wants to live with a dog that attacked them.


Agreed. I was kind of shocked at the blaming posts popping up on here.

My second shepherd, a working line dog- I accidentally slammed her tail in a very heavy metal warehouse door going into a dog training class. Stuff happens. She did not growl or anything. She yelped of course. But she let me immediately examine her tail with the class teacher and there was zero aggression.

I adopted an adult GSD and the first time I clipped his nails I quicked him. talk about an owner fail. He did snap at me. He did not make contact. He never snapped at me again in his life after that. I can understand perhaps a reflexive snap or threat in response to an unexpected acute pain but circling, growling and threatening? No. Just no.

OP could own any shepherd I've owned I don't think they would have any problem at all. I fuss over my dogs, I say sorry when I hurt them. And they don't stalk and threaten me.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Even dogs that have some issues don’t act like this. The one who snapped at me, see above: was an adult rescue we adopted when he was 3. We had one bad incident where my husband shoved him to make him move over in bed. It wasn’t a really hard or nasty shove but the dog perceived it as rude and uncalled for. He growled at my husband and they flared at each other and almost had a barroom brawl. I stupidly jumped in between them and stopped it and sent the dog off the bed.

he shouldn’t have been on the bed so soon after being adopted. He lost that privilege that day and I did some boot camp training with him about moving when asked politely.

he would occasionally growl, he was a resource guarder. We worked hard on that too. I am sure we made many many mistakes. The dog was, in my opinion, really mentally sound and he basically did not want conflict. If you brought him conflict he would do it but if you gave him an out he would take it.

despite our bumpy start we kept him and he became a wonderful family dog who died in our arms with cancer at 10. He never bit anyone.

my point being that you can go so far as to adopt a dog, quick him while trimming nails, shove him in the bed he shouldn’t be in then have a man glare in his face while saying something nasty, have wife jump in between…. You can do that many wrong things and not get bit by a certain dog.


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## Squidwardp

Yeah, another round of "you're an inadequate trainer." Not helpful.

When I was a kid, ages 7-12 or so, every other sunny spring and summer day was spent in my friend's backyard with his German Shepherd. We certainly did not have any protocol on reading cues. We weren't inadequate trainers, we were no kind of trainers at all. Dog was bigger and stronger than either of us until we hit early teenage years. But I was part of its pack, and it never, ever would have or did hurt either of us. It once killed a squirrel who was stealing its dog food in less time than it took me to type that last sentence, so it was not a show quality, no prey drive dog. 

I know dogs can be as variable as people in their temperaments, but no well bred dog and certainly not a well bred GSD should be like a loaded pistol with a 1 pound trigger and no trigger guard. 

Those who say they feel sad for the dog, I feel their point, no one likes to see a dog at threat of being put down. But this one is a walking liability. No one but a very experienced dog trainer, accustomed to dealing with either very dominant or very nervy dogs should adopt this fellow. I certainly would not come close to qualifying. 

I feel for the OP, and if I've gotten carried away with my typing, I did not mean to make you feel any worse. I just think for your safety you have to part with him, and for safety of others, if he is re-homed it has to be with full disclosure and to a capable trainer who understands his history.


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## Squidwardp

What kind of new owner could or would have him?

On a different working dog forum, can't recall where or I'd post a link, I read about the half-brother (brother from another litter by same parents) of Boban, an elite quality Schutzhund dog from the combination of Sven vom Grafental and Sindy Vom Schaferliesl. Boban got a reputation for being handler aggressive. The post described how his half brother, name I can't recall, had been homed with a family in Florida, I believe, and he became aggressive toward their teenaged child, who was supposed to be his main owner/handler in the household. 

A husband-wife breeder and trainer agreed to take him on, and as they described it, when they came to pick him up, he acted as if he wanted to kill the man. The man had to choke him into submission a couple of times at rest stops. On the third time or so, the dog began to submit a bit more to the human handling him. Eventually, they got him back to their place (seems like it was in Oklahoma? There was some lengthy trip involved). He apparently thrived in the new setting. They posted photos of him, on a sleeve, in his play yard, generally living what seemed his best life. 
When they posted all this, he had passed away after living into double digit years. So could he be salvaged? I dunno, maybe. But it would take someone with real training cred, probably some physical strength. And the thing about Sven and Sindy's occasional problem pups was, those were from dogs with Schutzhund 3s right down the line on both parents, grand-sire and dam, and so on. Going back to Lord Vom Gleisdreick on Sindy's side. 

So some people in the working dog elite community (which I don't pretend to be part of) would have to step up. And I'm not sure that would be an option here. 

I recalled the story, because it seemed like a feel-good story of a dog who could have been doomed being re-homed. Also because I had acquired a dog from a very reputable breeder with Sven and Sindy in the ancestry, a couple generations back. Our pup, now 17 months old, is the sweetest boy one could imagine.


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## GSD07

I think the dog has to be evaluated by a knowledgeable person and until then we only know that he and his current home is a terrible mismatch. 

I remember my own experience with helping to rehome an adult working line dog who was facing euthanasia due to multiple issues, lack of socializing, aggression, had to be muzzled etc. Fast forward to now, 10 years later, he’s still around, he turned out to be absolutely the best dog for his new family. They said that the dog had the sweetest temperament and a better dog hasn’t walked the surface of this earth, and he was the very same dog who had serious issues with his original family...


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## wolfy dog

Sabis mom said:


> I really hate to ask this. But can you post a pic of these bites? Different people perceive written words in different ways.
> If you are comfortable with it post your location, someone on here might know of a trainer near by.
> No one should live in fear of their own dog, you can tell your husband I said he is being an ass.
> I have a rule that states if a companion animal is not capable of being a companion they have lost the right to exist.
> Do whatever you need to do to ensure your safety.


Maybe Ian Dunbar's bite scale could be of help.


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## Sunsilver

I know of two people who were attacked by human aggressive GSDs, and had to choke the dog out to save their own lives. In both cases, the dog never caused another problem with them the rest of its life!

The one case was a kennel owner, who knew the dog's history, but forgot the dog was out, and went into the run to clean it. By sheer strength, he managed to keep the dog's head away from his face, then get it down on the ground and choke it out. 

On subsequent visits, he could handle the dog with no problem.


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## Bearshandler

Squidwardp said:


> What kind of new owner could or would have him?
> 
> On a different working dog forum, can't recall where or I'd post a link, I read about the half-brother (brother from another litter by same parents) of Boban, an elite quality Schutzhund dog from the combination of Sven vom Grafental and Sindy Vom Schaferliesl. Boban got a reputation for being handler aggressive. The post described how his half brother, name I can't recall, had been homed with a family in Florida, I believe, and he became aggressive toward their teenaged child, who was supposed to be his main owner/handler in the household.
> 
> A husband-wife breeder and trainer agreed to take him on, and as they described it, when they came to pick him up, he acted as if he wanted to kill the man. The man had to choke him into submission a couple of times at rest stops. On the third time or so, the dog began to submit a bit more to the human handling him. Eventually, they got him back to their place (seems like it was in Oklahoma? There was some lengthy trip involved). He apparently thrived in the new setting. They posted photos of him, on a sleeve, in his play yard, generally living what seemed his best life.
> When they posted all this, he had passed away after living into double digit years. So could he be salvaged? I dunno, maybe. But it would take someone with real training cred, probably some physical strength. And the thing about Sven and Sindy's occasional problem pups was, those were from dogs with Schutzhund 3s right down the line on both parents, grand-sire and dam, and so on. Going back to Lord Vom Gleisdreick on Sindy's side.
> 
> So some people in the working dog elite community (which I don't pretend to be part of) would have to step up. And I'm not sure that would be an option here.
> 
> I recalled the story, because it seemed like a feel-good story of a dog who could have been doomed being re-homed. Also because I had acquired a dog from a very reputable breeder with Sven and Sindy in the ancestry, a couple generations back. Our pup, now 17 months old, is the sweetest boy one could imagine.


Boban wasn’t an elite quality schutzhund dog. I don’t know that those dogs are a great comparison here either. Those were dogs giving issues to experienced handlers, not someone with their first dog. Boban was brought here by vom banach and she didn’t want to keep him. Again, not someone new to the breed. He also had a terrible record of hip production. He has stories of not just handler aggression, but biting judges as well. As far as who could handle a dog like this, I don’t think there’s anything here that says it would take some elite trainer. I do believe it would take someone more knowledgeable than the current owners.


----------



## Bearshandler

If telling someone they’re making mistakes handling a dog that could get them bit by the right dog in the right situation when they are getting bit is victim blaming, handler shaming, training shaming or whatever else then I don’t know what to tell you. Is the dog perfect? No. Neither is the owner. How many people here have a perfect dog? If they did they would never have to ask for help. If you have an issue that you want to work through, you ask for help. You don’t need to ask for counseling or help to put a dog down.


----------



## Squidwardp

Perhaps one could debate whether Boban was elite or not, but he certainly got a lot of second and third chances that a pet quality dog of similar propensities would probably not get. 






Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 7







www.pedigreedatabase.com





Not sure if the link came through, but this is a thread of about 15 pages duration on Boban from another forum. 
Much of the debate is over whether he was the type of dog that should be perpetuated in the bloodline of working dogs or not. 
And talk about heated debates. Makes some of the threads on here look like a coffee klatsch. 
A lot of ink to spill over a junk dog, if that is what he was. 
Many in the thread, to the extent I had time to read it, did think he was a bad dog to have in the gene pool, though none that I saw questioned his conformation. 
A vocal minority thought he could have been a very good dog, even a desirable working dog in the right hands. (elite is kind of a subjective definition). I would hazard a guess he was headed for a Schutzhund 3 track before he started going up the leash on people. He apparently went to another kennel, in Canada, that touted him as a foundation stud. Much of the discussion, which I admittedly only had time to skim, touched on exactly the problem of such dogs winding up in the hands of inexperienced owners.

All that is probably not too relevant to the OP. 

The other anecdote did seem more relevant*. *A few follow up searches reveals Boban's half brother's name was Ivo, and he got re-homed successfully more or less as I described above. Original owner was in Atlanta, not Florida, otherwise pretty much as related above. The story plays out on the workingdogforum site. The Ivo situation did seem more closely analogous to the situation here, i.e., the problem dog Ivo was_ not_ originally in the hands of an experienced handler. Maybe "experienced" is a better term than "elite". In my usage, an elite trainer would not necessarily have to be Ivan Balabanov or someone with a library of videos on the market. "Elite" is kind of a sliding scale. In bicycling, a U.S. Cat 1 cyclist would be elite compared to a fast recreational rider. If the ordinary rider tried to hang with one, they'd find out pretty quickly they couldn't. Same Cat 1 rider would get blown off the back of the Tour de France in the first stage. Maybe an experienced trainer, conversant with rehabbing either dominant or nervy dogs? 

I don't know if the OP's dog could be rehabilitated or not. 

Good luck, best wishes and sympathy to the OP. I think the folks that say you and your dog can't be in the same house are right. I know there is real sadness that must accompany that. And sorry for the digressions.


----------



## Cyndi21

Sunflowers said:


> II am so confused. How could he be holding him if the cage was locked?
> 
> I would do a complete work up on this dog to see if there are any medical issues or any pain that cause these behaviors. Impossible right now because I’m sure he is in pain because he was just neutered. Neutering also causes fluctuations in hormones, until they settle, so he could get worse before he gets better.
> 
> If there is no medical issue, then your husband is going to have to open his eyes to certain things and not defend the dog.
> I grew up with an aggressive lapdog that my mother always petted and defended after that little beast bit the you know what out of me. She still thinks of that dog fondly, I am just grateful that it wasn’t bigger or it could have done serious damage, as it was, that dog sent me to the ER once.
> This is serious and he needs to realize it. In addition, I would not rehome this dog. I feel for you, I really do.


The cage wasn't locked at the time. Re-read my post. The next reply to you was when my dh did the same thing with his phone and the cage was locked. Sorry for the confusion. And thank you for your comments. I'm sorry about your mom's dog and how she handled it. That's so wrong.
I had a talk with dh about how he defends Blue. He didn't realize he was doing that. I think his eyes are opened now because I wasn't all that nice about it. Tough love and all that.
Blue will get some tests to rule out neurological and other issues.


----------



## Cyndi21

Bearshandler said:


> Whether something is wrong with the dog or not, you do not have the home for him.


I respectfully disagree.


----------



## Cyndi21

Sabis mom said:


> I really hate to ask this. But can you post a pic of these bites? Different people perceive written words in different ways.
> If you are comfortable with it post your location, someone on here might know of a trainer near by.
> No one should live in fear of their own dog, you can tell your husband I said he is being an ass.
> I have a rule that states if a companion animal is not capable of being a companion they have lost the right to exist.
> Do whatever you need to do to ensure your safety.


----------



## Cyndi21

tim_s_adams said:


> Yep, I would have put this boy to sleep some time ago! What difference as to why he's doing what he's doing what he's doing? He's overstepped and nobody should have to live like this!


We will exhaust every other option before we consider euthanasia. At least he's in a muzzle now. And my dh had absolutely no problem getting him to wear it.


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## Cyndi21

Biscuit said:


> I have no help but I really feel for you. Make sure you are taking EVERY step to protect yourself. Go through in your head what you do if he manages to bite you again. How do you deal with the immediate situation.
> 
> I really feel for you. Stay safe.


You have no idea how I've replayed that scenario in my head over and over. Now he's wearing a muzzle, so I hope I never have to find out.


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## Cyndi21

WNGD said:


> "He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him."
> 
> I feel for you but so many mistakes going on here


Maybe it's how I worded it, but it's not what you think. Both me and my dh love Blue very much. He is more bonded to dh than he is to me. They have a beautiful relationship. Blue was scared of the flashlight app, and went to my dh. He did not come after me like I thought he would. My dh has lost sleep over this, not because of Blue, but because of me. He feels horrible about these attacks. He has also never seen Blue attack me or any of the dogs, not that this makes the injuries any less severe. I am always the one that's present, which I don't think is a coincidence. My dh is racking his brain trying to understand. Please, please, please don't attack him. If I told him to put Blue down, he would do it.


----------



## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> I don't believe that this dog will ever work in your home. Unless there is some underlying medical condition, he needs to go. No one in the home is capable of understanding what's going on or how to do anything about it.
> 
> Where are you located?


Cleveland Ohio area


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## Baileyshuman

Sorry, I have no input as I’ve never dealt with an issue such as that. Our chow chow once tried to bite me when he leg was caught in our volleyball net, but that’s it. 
I hope it can be resolved - whether you keep him or not, and I’m sure a good trainer and lots of dedication can help. Stay safe x


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## Cyndi21

Nice thing is that he hasn't growled or whined since my dh put this on him. I think we have hope.


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## Steve Strom

Cyndi21 said:


> Nice thing is that he hasn't growled or whined since my dh put this on him. I think we have hope.


Muzzles can sometimes take them down a couple of pegs, or sometimes frustrate them even more in one of those "Moments" If you're going to use one on him, I'd look for a better quality and fit from someone like RayAllen.com. I know those type are usually all you can walk into a store and find, but I bet he can get that off easier then it may seem.


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## Steve Strom

Cyndi21 said:


> Maybe it's how I worded it, but it's not what you think. Both me and my dh love Blue very much. He is more bonded to dh than he is to me. They have a beautiful relationship. Blue was scared of the flashlight app, and went to my dh. He did not come after me like I thought he would. My dh has lost sleep over this, not because of Blue, but because of me. He feels horrible about these attacks. He has also never seen Blue attack me or any of the dogs, not that this makes the injuries any less severe. I am always the one that's present, which I don't think is a coincidence. My dh is racking his brain trying to understand. Please, please, please don't attack him. If I told him to put Blue down, he would do it.


Soothe isn't the word I would use , but I would definitely be doing my best to calmly settle him down. What's the alternative? You think there's something else productive you can do when a dog is losing his you know what? There's things you have to experience first hand before you can really know what its like. I'm never going to fault someone for not being sure what to do when something like this happens. Everyone has a plan till they get bit (paraphrasing Mike Tyson and being punched in the face)
There's things you know now you didn't know last year. Something you should think about though, things like this tend to escalate and be real obvious like those bites, or hide under the surface until you get comfortable enough that you forget to be cautious and don't realize signs you're missing. Be prepared for what may be a rough and not real enjoyable life with him.


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## WNGD

Cyndi21 said:


> Maybe it's how I worded it, but it's not what you think. Both me and my dh love Blue very much. He is more bonded to dh than he is to me. They have a beautiful relationship. Blue was scared of the flashlight app, and went to my dh. He did not come after me like I thought he would. My dh has lost sleep over this, not because of Blue, but because of me. He feels horrible about these attacks. He has also never seen Blue attack me or any of the dogs, not that this makes the injuries any less severe. I am always the one that's present, which I don't think is a coincidence. My dh is racking his brain trying to understand. Please, please, please don't attack him. If I told him to put Blue down, he would do it.


I don't attack anyone on here, just pointing out that petting a dog after he attacked me or my wife is the last thing I'd do.
No one loves my dog more than I do but if either of them ever drew blood like that, we'd have a come to jesus moment in a hot second.


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## wolfy dog

OP, I saw the pictures. I take my earlier post back and I apologise. No dog should respond like this when being accidently hurt by it's owner. These are level 4 bites on the Ian Dunbar bite scale and, as you know, highly dangerous. This dog is willing to kill you IMO.


----------



## Cyndi21

Steve Strom said:


> Muzzles can sometimes take them down a couple of pegs, or sometimes frustrate them even more in one of those "Moments" If you're going to use one on him, I'd look for a better quality and fit from someone like RayAllen.com. I know those type are usually all you can walk into a store and find, but I bet he can get that off easier then it may seem.


The muzzle is a Baskerville. Is that good quality? I ordered online.


----------



## Cyndi21

WNGD said:


> I don't attack anyone on here, just pointing out that petting a dog after he attacked me or my wife is the last thing I'd do.
> No one loves my dog more than I do but if either of them ever drew blood like that, we'd have a come to jesus moment in a hot second.


He did not attack me.


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## Cyndi21

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I saw the pictures. I take my earlier post back and I apologise. No dog should respond like this when being accidently hurt by it's owner. These are level 4 bites on the Ian Dunbar bite scale and, as you know, highly dangerous. This dog is willing to kill you IMO.


Thank you.


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## Steve Strom

Cyndi21 said:


> The muzzle is a Baskerville. Is that good quality? I ordered online.


I'd look at something like this, a little more tailored to your dogs muzzle size:








Wire Basket Muzzle


Wire Basket Dog Muzzles are a safe training tool to discourage dogs from biting, eating unwanted objects or to heal from oral procedures.




www.rayallen.com


----------



## ksotto333

Cyndi21 said:


> He's perfectly fine if I ask him to move. In fact, in the middle of the night I've woken him when walking around him and he just gets up. No growling or anything. It's when I step on his paw or tail by accident that he gets upset. He might yelp, then he growls and starts circling me, like he's herding me. I talk sweetly to him and either distract him with a toy or let him outside. So, we thought when he attacks me that it's because I hurt him. Apparently if he's in a stressful situation, like with the other dogs, he can attack me as well. Hopefully the trainer will help us so this doesn't happen again. Each attack is more vicious than the last. Next time I could lose a finger, or worse.


Worried about losing a finger or worse? And yes those are attacks, especially when your mom struggled to get him off of you. You should have medical attention. I bet you won't because you don't want the bite reported. I'm shaking my head over this.


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## Cyndi21

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I saw the pictures. I take my earlier post back and I apologise. No dog should respond like this when being accidently hurt by it's owner. These are level 4 bites on the Ian Dunbar bite scale and, as you know, highly dangerous. This dog is willing to kill you IMO.


Thank you.


----------



## ksotto333

Cyndi21 said:


> He's perfectly fine if I ask him to move. In fact, in the middle of the night I've woken him when walking around him and he just gets up. No growling or anything. It's when I step on his paw or tail by accident that he gets upset. He might yelp, then he growls and starts circling me, like he's herding me. I talk sweetly to him and either distract him with a toy or let him outside. So, we thought when he attacks me that it's because I hurt him. Apparently if he's in a stressful situation, like with the other dogs, he can attack me as well. Hopefully the trainer will help us so this doesn't happen again. Each attack is more vicious than the last. Next time I could lose a finger, or worse.
> [/QUOT


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## Sunflowers

Cyndi21 said:


> He did not attack me.


I am confused.
That is literally the title of this thread.


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## ksotto333

Sunflowers said:


> I am confused.
> That is literally the title of this thread.


That's what I was thinking. 🤔🤨


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## techinstructor

The photos of your bites are very worrisome. It's apparent that he kept biting for a while which is dangerous indeed for you. I noticed that you have the muzzle on rather loosely as is necessary if he is to wear it all the time. However, be aware that I've seen a shepherd use his paws to pull a muzzle off when it wasn't really snug on his face. It was a different type than what you are using but still a problem if he can get it off.
I know you want to keep this dog and I believe that all dogs are salvageable, but I do think that some really serious training and relationship building are going to be needed for you to be safe with this dog. It will take a lot of time and effort; I don't think this situation will heal itself. He doesn't trust you and you cannot trust him and this dynamic must be changed for you to be able to live together.
Your desire to keep the dog is commendable, but you have a long road ahead. I really don't think there is an easy, quick fix to this problem.


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## Sunflowers

Please don’t get a false sense of security.
I would not think I’m safe with that muzzle, or any muzzle. They can, and do, get them off.
Also, no muzzle should be worn for a long period of time.

You need a much better solution.


----------



## tim_s_adams

ksotto333 said:


> That's what I was thinking. 🤔🤨


The OP is referring to a specific instance. On that occasion the dog did not attack her, her husband was able to get before he launched an attack...but he was loading up.


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## ksotto333

tim_s_adams said:


> The OP is referring to a specific instance. On that occasion the dog did not attack her, her husband was able to get before he launched an attack...but he was loading up.


That's not clear to me. Hope she is taking this seriously.


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## Cyndi21

ksotto333 said:


> Worried about losing a finger or worse? And yes those are attacks, especially when your mom struggled to get him off of you. You should have medical attention. I bet you won't because you don't want the bite reported. I'm shaking my head over this.


I did get medical attention.
I'm astounded by all the assumptions on here.


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## Cyndi21

Sunflowers said:


> I am confused.
> That is literally the title of this thread.


On that particular instance he did not attack me. The title of the thread refers to two instances where he did attack me. Let's please move on...


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## Cyndi21

ksotto333 said:


> That's not clear to me. Hope she is taking this seriously.


Of course I'm taking it seriously. That's why I'm here, looking for advice, support, etc.


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> I did get medical attention.
> I'm astounded by all the assumptions on here.


We aren't trying to make assumptions, it can just be really tough to gather all the details and get the right context. A lot of us have been in or close to similar situations and we feel for you, your family and your dog. 
People who have never dealt with anything close can struggle to grasp the complex emotions, thoughts and actions. 
Plus we get about a million posts about dog attacks that are really crazy. Eight week old puppies, people doing stupid things, and dogs just playing.


----------



## Cyndi21

Thank you so far to everyone who has been supportive, helpful, and kind. I truly do appreciate it and have looked at every link. I know that I have been portraying my dog as this horrible beast. He really is a wonderful, loving, and amazing dog 99% of the time. The other 1% he is an animal that I don't even recognize. Because of the 99%, we are going to do our best to get him the help that he deserves. Here's a photo of how he is 99% of the time.
Please don't worry. We are be very diligent in keeping my safety in mind. God bless you for your support.


----------



## Saphire

Cyndi21 said:


> Thank you so far to everyone who has been supportive, helpful, and kind. I truly do appreciate it and have looked at every link. I know that I have been portraying my dog as this horrible beast. He really is a wonderful, loving, and amazing dog 99% of the time. The other 1% he is an animal that I don't even recognize. Because of the 99%, we are going to do our best to get him the help that he deserves. Here's a photo of how he is 99% of the time.
> Please don't worry. We are be very diligent in keeping my safety in mind. God bless you for your support.


Please look into the medical testing in my above post as a place to start. It’s important to rule out any medical issues before proceeding to the next step.


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## Rionel

Being emotionally invested in a dog makes objectivity fleeting sometimes. From the images you posted, it looks far too intense to ignore. I would really encourage you to bring in a professional trainer very soon, because your dog has just established that he could inflict that much damage to you and there were essentially no consequences for his behavior. The next time he won't necessarily reason to do less damage. If anything it could escalate to something much worse like broken bones or a severed arteries. Not to diminish you, or to say your dog is a failure, but the information you've shared so far makes it seem that his behavior, and your ability to immediately rectify it, are on divergent paths. What if he had gone for your face and it had been your eye? Best of luck to you.


----------



## selzer

I looked at the pictures. A GSD can do a LOT Of damage. It looks like there was some inhibition. There is breaking of skin, but I am thinking huge punctures and rips and bruising, which I am not really seeing. I am not saying that it is good. But my guess is that the dog that went up the lead on its handler, probably did as much if not more damage than this. I have some scars that included medical attention and stitches, but that was putting my hand or leg into the middle of a dog fight. I am so much on the fence with this one. I mean, I used to think the way my family did when they said, any dog that bites the had that feeds it, needs to be put down. Since then, I have seen dogs that have been turned around. 

We have had countless discussions of alpha rolls. Most of us don't go there because if you have a dog that _needs_ an alpha roll, then you have a dog that can mark up your face pretty bad. And yet, we are talking about people choking out dogs and then having no more trouble with them. 

If this was medical or neurological, then I would think he wouldn't discriminate, but would have attacked the man as well as the woman in the family. It's almost like we have a dog that has accepted the man as his owner, leader, master, but not the OP. I cannot think of a medical excuse for that. If that continues to be true though, you would think by improving the leadership and stature in the dog's mind of the OP, or if the dog's acknowledged leader, with perfect timing, gave the dog a come-to-Jesus moment, to instill in the dog that neither of his humans are to be trifled with, I don't know. 

Before encouraging euthanasia, I think getting a good, experienced trainer/behaviorist on board, and allowing the hormones from the neuter to go down. If the dog continues to have these 1% of the time moments, maybe there just isn't anything more that can be done.


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## tim_s_adams

Personally, after seeing those photos, I would not spend another penny on the dog! There's just no path that can ever lead to a good trusting, bonded relationship for this woman and this dog.

I absolutely agree that in my experience a medical issue would be more across the board, the rage not so targeted. Which is exactly why I said what I said and I stick by it. It's not an easy decision, and I hope I'm wrong, but...

OP, did anyone ever play with this dog with a laser pointer?


----------



## Cyndi21

Rionel said:


> Being emotionally invested in a dog makes objectivity fleeting sometimes. From the images you posted, it looks far too intense to ignore. I would really encourage you to bring in a professional trainer very soon, because your dog has just established that he could inflict that much damage to you and there were essentially no consequences for his behavior. The next time he won't necessarily reason to do less damage. If anything it could escalate to something much worse like broken bones or a severed arteries. Not to diminish you, or to say your dog is a failure, but the information you've shared so far makes it seem that his behavior, and your ability to immediately rectify it, are on divergent paths. What if he had gone for your face and it had been your eye? Best of luck to you.


I completely agree with everything you've said. And the emotional attachment makes it the most difficult to look at things objectively. That's exactly why I joined this group, in the hopes of getting some much needed advice, feedback, and support, which I have. You don't even realize how much help you all have been already. Thank you.
I've spoken to my trainer and she feels that we need someone more specialized than what they can handle. Here are the places she referred us to:






Change the Way Your Pet Behaves


You love your pet. You don't love how they act. Talk to our team of veterinary behavior professionals at The Behavior Clinic today to see how we can work with you to help solve your pet's behavior problem.




www.thebehaviorclinic.com










Behavioral Medicine | OSU Veterinary Medical Center


Are you experiencing a behavior problem with your pet? The Behavioral Medicine Clinic offers services to owners of companion animals with behavioral issues, including, but not limited to, human-directed aggression, inter-pet aggression, separation anxiety, inappropriate elimination, fears...




vet.osu.edu





I would greatly appreciate any feedback regarding these places, if anyone here has ever dealt with them or knows someone who has. The OSU one is 3 hours away, but distance is not an issue. Thank you.


----------



## Cyndi21

tim_s_adams said:


> Personally, after seeing those photos, I would not spend another penny on the dog! There's just no path that can ever lead to a good trusting, bonded relationship for this woman and this dog.
> 
> I absolutely agree that in my experience a medical issue would be more across the board, the rage not so targeted. Which is exactly why I said what I said and I stick by it. It's not an easy decision, and I hope I'm wrong, but...
> 
> OP, did anyone ever play with this dog with a laser pointer?


Nope. No laser pointer.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Cyndi21 said:


> Nope. No laser pointer.


Thanks for responding! I was curious because here on this forum, and in life, one sees so many dogs with issues caused by those darn things!

There was a dog, up in Canada if I remember correctly, that was acting very similar to yours. The poster on that thread was actually the brother of the original owner of the dog, who had now taken over working and mostly living with him, because the dog was similarly mauling his brother. One of the incidents he told us about was similar to your flashlight on your cellphone story, so it seemed worth asking at least.

Listen, I wish you and your dog all the best. I just, as you can tell from my posts, don't see how it works out well in the end...and that's any end that I can imagine.

As long as you have any fear or insecurity around your dog, they know it, and it shapes their interaction with you. So that's the big hurdle! Can you ever trust this dog again? No matter how much you love him, can you?

I wouldn't. I'm sorry to have to say that, and I've been around large and even many aggressive dogs all my life. What your dog has done is not normal. But I do, wish you all well!


----------



## Jenny720

It is really sad you are going through this there is no way there will be a no extreme challenging ending no matter what Avenue you go down. You will not be able to ever fully trust your dog and that is a very limiting relationship. In your photos I do see some bite inhibition in one arm with multiple bites nothing deep and no bruising what concerns me is the many many multiple bites. It’s the wound in your hand and other arm including you mentioned nerve damage In your fingers? All shows some serious frustration then escalation and lack of control. Your dog did actually attack you. This is more then just a one second bite. This was multiple bites escalating and needed to be physically stopped by a third party.

Figuring out what is going on starts out with a visit to the vet making sure there are no physical issues, neurological issues, health issues. German shepherds who do not feel well this can activate their defensive drives and bite those that they don’t fully trust - this in one no way making it acceptable for what has happened here. Have him evaluated by the best of the best reputable trainers dealing in German Shepherd breeds. Put it all on the scale never rush into making any major decisions. Remember your safety is a priority.

Having aggressive traits certainly does not give any dog a license to go around seriously attacking members of their own household for no reason. The gsd breed likes to bite, they all do. Aggression is part of the German shepherd breed. There are different levels of aggression and aggression can be manifested in many different ways anxiety, not being able to focus, frustration, it is the level of control that is important. Impulsiveness/lack of control is not a strength but it can be part of aggressive behaviors it’s where the balance is needed.

My first German shepherd who had since started me off on the passion for the breed, needed his nail trim at the vet. The one and only struggle. He was awful getting his nails done. He had arthritis as well at 8 years of age. Along with his arthritis he was manhandled by 3 or more men vet and vet techs- wrestling him to stay still that day as they cut his nails. He was loaded up on acepromazine and with all the man handling and his arthritis he was super sore and could not get out of the car. With all the doors open he was left to rest. This was all in the middle of a heatwave, in the middle of packing to move with a 9 month old and getting ready for a closing on the house. He was still in the car and it was now really late at night. I went out there not really fully understanding of his entire day as I did not bring him to the vets office. Beyond exhausted I could not see anything it was pitch black as I was reaching into the car to jiggle his collar to get him to hop out. He chopped down on my on my hand with one bite sending me flat on my back jumped over me and headed toward the house meeting my then husband who was there to give to give him a come to Jesus moment. He was trained to bite and had the most unusual widest biggest head i think ever saw on a any gsd or any large breed dog which I’m sure added to the impact. I felt every bit of that bite even if was just a one - two seconds. It felt like my hand was run over by a truck wheel and it was one bite that was it. I thought my hand was broken and went to the er to have it xrayed. it also felt like I burned my hand as it being held in a pot of boiling water for a few hours I needed it iced for hours. Knowing this was all my fault 100% and understanding the acepromazine clouded his brain and his pain did not help, being dark outside, so many changes -with the bAby and focus on my baby, the move. It still was a forever process to 100% fully trust him after that. I still feel so very guilty feeling that way, as he did not ever gave me no reason not to trust him any differently after that not one reason.

I am really glad your dog has a muzzle on and that wire basket muzzle sized right is a priority- you need order that today. I think leerbugh has a video on sizing for that recommended muzzle. Please be safe while you get some hands on professional evaluations.


----------



## WNGD

Cyndi21 said:


> He did not attack me.


Semantics. If you think he didn't attack you, well it sure wasn't kissing you was it?

Just change my wording to "my dog ever laid teeth on me like that". My point stands.


----------



## Cyndi21

WNGD said:


> Semantics. If you think he didn't attack you, well it sure wasn't kissing you was it?
> 
> Just change my wording to "my dog ever laid teeth on me like that". My point stands.


In your earlier post, you said "petting a dog after he attacked me". That did not happen. It's not semantics.


----------



## wolfy dog

I didn't see any bite inhibition in these pictures. I consider bite inhibition to be a warning bite without breaking the skin. This dog meant to harm you. If it weren't for the other person, you might have been dead. He is 99% good, the 1% is what that looks like.


----------



## Cyndi21

wolfy dog said:


> I didn't see any bite inhibition in these pictures. I consider bite inhibition to be a warning bite without breaking the skin. This dog memte to harm you. If it weren't for the other person, you might have been dead. He is 99% good, the 1% is what that looks like.


Thank you. If it weren't for your post and other similar ones, I don't think I would be pushing so hard to make sure I'm safe at all times. My dh knows this is serious, but I honestly don't he understands just how bad it really is.


----------



## Baileyshuman

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not (someone please correct me if i'm wrong), but maybe a board and train would work? It's on the pricier end, but with a dog who bites like that, it might be a good idea. We have a trainer here who does 2/4/8/12 week training - the dog stays with them in their kennels during that time, and it seems like they're really good. Again, I might be wrong - just a thought x


----------



## Kittykattyness

Cyndi21 said:


> Thank you. If it weren't for your post and other similar ones, I don't think I would be pushing so hard to make sure I'm safe at all times. My dh knows this is serious, but I honestly don't he understands just how bad it really is.


You can literally see how he has bit down into the fat of your arm, one cut is gaping open with fat showing... these injuries are horrendous.


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## Jenny720

According to this case, particular dog and the damage to the other hand and arm Is what I am comparing to in regards to inhibition. I see no puncture wounds in the other arm unless I just can’t see them if they there are puncture wounds and or nerve damage in that arm I take that back. I did not see bruising so assumed that arm had no nerve damage. Comparing the damage to the other arm there is a big difference Visually to me as I assume you needed stitches with all that deep tearing. The best thing you did as of now was to put a on the muzzle the dog.


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## Jenny720

Keep everyone posted.


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## WNGD

"As far as the incidents when Blue bit me, *the first* was because I touched a sore spot. That was my fault. Now, my husband can do the same thing and Blue is fine. But, he can read Blue much better than I can.
*The second time he was very excited. But he quickly lied down and let me scratch his belly*."

"He might yelp, then he growls and starts circling me, like he's herding me. *I talk sweetly to him *and either distract him with a toy or let him outside."

"he started that low growl and slowly got up. I knew he was coming after me. His cage was unlocked. Thank God dh was there. *He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him*." 

So even there you say you knew he was going to attack you but now you want to argue semantics because he hadn't yet?

I can't believe that after you mentioning attacks and mauling probably 30X in this thread, after blood, cuts, teeth, tears, fear ...... you still don't appear to be getting it after many people are offering good advice and others are even being a bit more honest. You asked for opinions from experienced GSD owners (who can only do so much not knowing you as a trainer, relationship with the dog, success/failure with other training, the dog lineage, character etc.)

You're far from the first to ask for advice and not like the answers here, they usually drift of after a week and say this isn't a friendly place but the truth is everyone here just loves the breed (more than the owners lol) and try to help as best they can.. Don't shoot the messenger, you're in over your head, I hope you'll listen to the trainer.


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## David Winners

I have a different perspective because I have worked with a lot of dogs that would hurt you. The bites you received were painful and the attack was scary, the dog was not trying to kill you. It could have been much worse. What I am saying is that the dog showed some restraint, though it may not look like it from your perspective.

Tim brings up an excellent point about your mental state effecting your relationship with the dog. If there is fear in you, the dog will know it. No level of acting will cover it up. It is a difficult thing to not be fearful of a dog that has caused you physical and emotional damage. Lets just say that it takes a certain amount of experience coupled with a particular personality.

I still believe that this is not a dog that will ever do well in your home. If you are serious about training, get to someone with references. Tyler Muto comes to mind. 

This is a relationship problem that has grown into aggression and it will get worse without serious training for you, the DH and the dog.


----------



## Cyndi21

Jenny720 said:


> According to this case, particular dog and the damage to the other hand and arm Is what I am comparing to in regards to inhibition. I see no puncture wounds in the other arm unless I just can’t see them if they there are puncture wounds and or nerve damage in that arm I take that back. I did not see bruising so assumed that arm had no nerve damage. Comparing the damage to the other arm there is a big difference Visually to me as I assume you needed stitches with all that deep tearing. The best thing you did as of now was to put a on the muzzle the dog.


----------



## Cyndi21

WNGD said:


> "As far as the incidents when Blue bit me, *the first* was because I touched a sore spot. That was my fault. Now, my husband can do the same thing and Blue is fine. But, he can read Blue much better than I can.
> *The second time he was very excited. But he quickly lied down and let me scratch his belly*."
> 
> "He might yelp, then he growls and starts circling me, like he's herding me. *I talk sweetly to him *and either distract him with a toy or let him outside."
> 
> "he started that low growl and slowly got up. I knew he was coming after me. His cage was unlocked. Thank God dh was there. *He called Blue to him, petted him and soothed him*."
> 
> So even there you say you knew he was going to attack you but now you want to argue semantics because he hadn't yet?
> 
> I can't believe that after you mentioning attacks and mauling probably 30X in this thread, after blood, cuts, teeth, tears, fear ...... you still don't appear to be getting it after many people are offering good advice and others are even being a bit more honest. You asked for opinions from experienced GSD owners (who can only do so much not knowing you as a trainer, relationship with the dog, success/failure with other training, the dog lineage, character etc.)
> 
> You're far from the first to ask for advice and not like the answers here, they usually drift of after a week and say this isn't a friendly place but the truth is everyone here just loves the breed (more than the owners lol) and try to help as best they can.. Don't shoot the messenger, you're in over your head, I hope you'll listen to the trainer.


I AM listening and taking everything said VERY seriously and have even said so a few times. I even appreciate what you're telling me and I am taking precautions. You don't need to be such a to get your point across.


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## Sabis mom

@Cyndi21 
Of all the people commenting here, myself included, you would do well to follow David's advice. I've dealt with my share of aggressive dogs, but I'm not a trainer just an idiot!


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## Sunsilver

Yes, Dave has more experience with working dogs than anyone else I can think of on this board that still posts here. Cliffson probably has more, given his age, but he's not around anymore.

And Sabis's mom is NOT an idiot!
She's got a fair bit of working dog experience under he belt too, having done security work with guard dogs.


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## Sabis mom

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, Dave has more experience with working dogs than anyone else I can think of on this board that still posts here. Cliffson probably has more, given his age, but he's not around anymore.
> 
> And Sabis's mom is NOT an idiot!
> She's got a fair bit of working dog experience under he belt too, having done security work with guard dogs.


David actually trained them, I am just a handler who got good at dodging bites!


----------



## middleofnowhere

Bottom line - wrong dog for this home or wrong home for this dog. Situation's sad.


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## selzer

My first GSD I actually put down because he deliberately bit me. I am not proud of that. 40 some dogs later, I think through the whole scenario, all 7 years of his life, and I know that it wouldn't have turned out that way if I had that same dog today. Frodo is not your dog, though. How your dog got to be the way he is, is not what happened with Frodo. With a single bite, 3 of my fingers were bloody, and yet, looking back, incredible bite inhibition was shown. And I put that dog down. Because at the time, I didn't realize that. I had a dog that deliberately bit me, and I thought I could never trust him again. He was in a lot of pain, and he was getting a progressively shorter fuse, and maybe it was the right thing to do, but I still look at it as a massive failure on my part. 

Since then I have had much worse bites from dogs and haven't put another down for aggression. Those bites were during dog fights and not deliberate attacks on me. I don't hold them against those dogs at all, and the dogs have passed at this point anyway. One of the bites took over a year to heal. These dogs can do incredible damage in an incredibly short period. As David remarked, the dog did not try to kill you. And some of that damage could have been increased by the dog being forcibly removed which may have intensified the situation. It's like he is communicating with his teeth. My dog was too. Only in my situation, it was totally my fault. That was better than 20 years ago But I will never forget it. I don't want anyone to feel that way, but I don't want anyone to put themselves in mortal peril because they kept their dog alive hoping to fix him. 

If you choose to put your dog down, I would support your decision. If you choose to try to work this out, I support that as well. And I will say it again, I am really sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Saphire

wolfy dog said:


> I didn't see any bite inhibition in these pictures. I consider bite inhibition to be a warning bite without breaking the skin. This dog meant to harm you. If it weren't for the other person, you might have been dead. He is 99% good, the 1% is what that looks like.


I think of showing inhibition “during” an incident like this as not requiring a lot of sutures or suffering a fracture. The damage the dog could have done is indeed much worse than what the OP received. This dog was chewy and did not bite down hard enough to fracture and didn’t leaving massive gaping wounds. To me a growl is your warning and nothing to do with bite inhibition per say. The bite inhibition starts once they grab you. I could be way off base, that’s just how I think about it. I’d be shocked if this dog didn’t give warnings, could be subtle or not but the OP didn’t pick up on them. I’d be interested in what training methods that have been used up until now.
I do believe this dog will escalate if serious steps aren’t taken. A tanked thyroid or high cortisol can cause unpredictable rage episodes, I’d still be starting with a thorough work up at the vets.


----------



## Cyndi21

WNGD, I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have snapped at you. You're just trying to help. Thank you for that. 
This is going to be an uphill battle. Not because we can't keep Blue secure and me safe. That's not the problem. My husband really doesn't get it. I've told two of my friends what happened and showed them the wounds. Dh is good friends with one of their husbands. I think he could make him see how serious this is.


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## CactusWren

Cyndi21, I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I had mentioned earlier that Jupiter has gotten into a "frenzy" sometimes and bitten my arm in certain circumstances, but I want to make clear that these bites never broke the skin. I could feel the vise-like strength in his jaws, but he never squeezed down--obviously he could have, if he had ever chosen to.


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## ksotto333

If your husband is not on board on how serious this is, I don't know what you can do. I'm so sorry.


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## GSD07

So what is husband supposed to do? Agree to euthanize, rehome or get a trainer, that’s what the uphill battle the OP is talking about is? He got a muzzle, containment and separation is not a problem, the dog behaves in his presence.

OP, dogs form separate relationships with each and every separate family member. If a dog lives in your house you have to be able to manage him and be able to control him on your own at all times, alone or not.

You cannot live in fear for your life, you cannot live your life as a victim of abuse by your own dog, or any dog or a human for that matter. This would not be a healthy life. You have the right to refuse being under the same roof as your dog if you are not able to figure out on your own or with a trainers help how to bring a balance into your relationship with your dog.

I’m sorry to tell you but this is your task, your responsibility and your problem to solve, not your husband’s. I guarantee that he understands the gravity of the situation and is there to support you but you are the one who has to make your dog understand that he cannot mess with you anymore.


----------



## Jenny720

It is tough to look at to say the least. With so many multiple bites, I said feel this could of been so much worse. I do not see deep puncture wounds in that arm, I see the bite marks and bruising and it sounds like it looks like can be some serious misscommunication all the way around. Again though you can see the escalation with damages to the other arm whether that be from your mother in law trying to get the dog away from you or not - either way just tells you the heightened frame of mind he is in. Again a vet appointment for a physical work up and a appoinment with a top notch trainer the best of the best who deals with shepherd breeds, as Tyler Muto was mentioned. If he can not see the dog he may be able to recommend someone else.

Your husband is not helping you, the dog or himself if he continues to be in denial and or afraid. Getting answers and help will only be beneficial in this situation.

I had burned myself in the oven cooking dinner last week. I put organic green and white tea bags directly on my burns at night and wrapped my arm in vet wrap and removed them next morning. Green tea is great for healing wounds, scars it helps regenerating skin cells. White tea is good for skin damage and has antibacterial benefits and then cacao butter on it. The healing was amazing. I did this every night for a few nights. I am not mentioning this because it really helps the healing process. It will help with the healing those bite marks it is important to make sure the paper used for the tea bag is chemical free.) raw cacao butter is filled with antioxidants great for the skin great healing benefits.



https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/143841632.pdf











Effect of green tea (Camellia sinensis) extract on healing process of surgical wounds in rat


Green tea (Camellia sinensis) has anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties and may enhance wound healing process. The present study, therefore, w…




www.sciencedirect.com













Health Benefits of White Tea


Multiple studies have show the health benefit of white tea extract -- it can kill bacteria, viruses, and fungi in the body with more success than other teas. Learn more here.Multiple studies have show the health benefit of white tea extract -- it can kill bacteria, viruses, and fungi in the body...




www.pacificcollege.edu


----------



## wolfy dog

How much does your husband care about you??


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## Davycc

wolfy dog said:


> How much does your husband care about you??


I honestly agree with that but I also can imagine the OPs husband going through denial, it will change, will get sorted. We can all live together. He probably adores the dog and wants it to work. But then I come back to my initial thought... I couldn't have my partner left alone with this dog.

Someone somewhere can work with it, it may never be perfect but it could be closer in a different environment.

I really feel for the OP but also for her Hubby.


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## Bearshandler

GSD07 said:


> I’m sorry to tell you but this is your task, your responsibility and your problem to solve, not your husband’s. I guarantee that he understands the gravity of the situation and is there to support you but you are the one who has to make your dog understand that he cannot mess with you anymore.


This is the husband’s dog. If the husband made it clear to the dog that this behavior wasn’t going to be tolerated, that crossing his wife is crossing him, this thread wouldn’t exist. Some might say they have a conversation with the dog about it, some might call it a come to Jesus moment, but it comes from the leader of the dog. I’ve had similar conversations with dog’s before.


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## Sunsilver

Bearshandler, that's exactly what I told an e-friend the other night, when we were discussing this via PM! The last thing her husband should have done was coddled the dog when it came to him after she told him she thought the dog was going to bite her, due to being stimulated by the flashlight!

I wouldn't punish a dog for coming when called, but if it had been me, there would have been no praise for coming, and he would have been put in his crate PDQ!


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## Davycc

Exactly, but it wasn't and probably because of his connection with the dog. Therefore training and help needed for dog, hubby and OP.. if it's not too late.


----------



## HollandN

There have been several suggestions for Tyler Muto Dog Training, Obedience and Behavior Modification Services, Buffalo NY
This is what I would do in this situation I would not want to live with a dog I was scared of


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## GSD07

@Bearshandler This is a family dog. The OP is regularly alone with the dog. The dog does not attack her when the husband is present so he got the message, he attacks her when the husband is not around. The dog does not respect the OP and thinks he can get away with his tantrums and moods and whatever is in his head. 

If everything is dependent on the husband then the OP should never handle the dog and only interact with the muzzled dog under her husband’s close supervision, like a child. Or she can decide to be an equal partner and start building the relationship and take control. 

My own dog is my husband’s dog, I don’t even question it. I also don’t give a crap about the dogs choice of a leader or his fantasies about climbing the social ladder. He has to listen to me, he cannot hurt me and he will benefit greatly because of such arrangements. He got it because I personally made sure the message was delivered crystal and clear.


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## jstijerina

Hi Cindi,

I am a first time dog owner and chose to have a GSD - just love their intelligence and loyalty. I got mine at 4 months and is now 17 mo. I have two grandbabies 5 and 2 that come to the house often. They have stepped on his tail before and he just yelps and that's all. Almost like he knows it was an accident. I my dog ever bit me outside of when we are just playing around and he nips me, or bites any of my grandbabies, I would choose one of two options because I am not an experienced GSD owner: 1) Give him to an experienced GSD dog owner that perhaps can salvage him; or 2) Put him to sleep. Good luck!


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## Davycc

jstijerina said:


> Hi Cindi,
> 
> I am a first time dog owner and chose to have a GSD - just love their intelligence and loyalty. I got mine at 4 months and is now 17 mo. I have two grandbabies 5 and 2 that come to the house often. They have stepped on his tail before and he just yelps and that's all. Almost like he knows it was an accident. I my dog ever bit me outside of when we are just playing around and he nips me, or bites any of my grandbabies, I would choose one of two options because I am not an experienced GSD owner: 1) Give him to an experienced GSD dog owner that perhaps can salvage him; or 2) Put him to sleep. Good luck!


I get were you are coming from BUT kids / grandkids, nieces / nephews etc need to be educated in what to expect and how to behave with growing puppies. The dog will accept them all as part of the pack but will also want to play with them as part of the pack which can mean jumps, scrabs nips etc. The more aware the "children" are, the better the supervision is, the better the socialisation will be.


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## wolfy dog

This sounds mean but I am starting to wonder which newspaper to keep track of. Seems like everything possible has been suggested so any accident from now on won't be a surprise and you can no longer blame the dog.


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## selzer

I'm a single person and I work full time, and my dogs are kenneled when I am not home. They are in kennels where they can potty appropriately (outside) and they can be in 24/7, so they are large. The smallest is 10'x15' and that has a 13.5 year old dog in it. The point is, that if you have a kennel area in it. You could leave that dog in its kennel area while your husband is away, at least until the hormones from the neuter even out. Your husband can put the dog in the kennel in the morning and bring it out in the evening, unless there is a neighbor issue, and then maybe you can put the dog in the kennel area for half the time and bring it in and crate it half the time. 

My dogs are not all alone, and dogs are a pack animal, so having another animal in the yard or nearby would make this easier, usually. I would not kennel the dog with your hound, she is too old to maybe be constantly on edge. I probably would not kennel this dog with any other dog, but I might kennel a dog next to the dog if there isn't chronic fence fighting. My point is that the dog seems to get it when the husband is there. So until you have begun (and reached some progress with) whatever regimen that you think will work for both you and your dog, and your husband will be on board with, the dog is safe from you, but not constantly muzzled. 

I think a good 6'h by 5' x 10' kennel will cost under $400 from tractor supply. If you buy the kind that has panels, you can buy two extra panels and make it 5'x15' or four extra panels for 10'x15'. you can use a side of the house or garage in lieu of extra panels, if the dog won't eat your siding. In fact, I put up an x-pen along the house to protect the siding. You can put a cot in there a sun screen over the top, a dog house for when it rains a swimming pool, a bucket for water, and even a "sandbox" full of wood chips. Hard rubber toys or safe bones are ok too. I do suggest the base be concrete to discourage digging, and not asphalt that gets too hot in the summer. The dog will get used to his routine, if you don't feel too sad to leave him in there when you are around. I think a lot of what has to happen is a change in behavior, and starting with a 2-4 week shut down might be a really good idea. Think of it as re-booting your relationship with your dog. A lot of times when people bring an adult dog or an older puppy into their home to foster or even if they purchase, they will do such a shut down. It means that you take care of the dog's needs but nothing extra. In this case, you are not engaging with the dog, if necessary you are feeding him and filling the water bucket, and cleaning the poop, but you are not playing with the dog. I think in your case, if for the first couple of weeks your husband takes care of the basic needs, and after the first couple of weeks you switch that to you giving food, water, etc. it would be best. Then the dog is safe while you wait for medical testing to come back and hormones to regulate, the relationships gets a reboot, and you have an opportunity to figure out what form of leadership, training, and management you are going to employ for the next 6 months. 

It wouldn't hurt to keep a daily diary once you are interacting again. Because that way, you will able to see, over time, whether there is positive change/progress.


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## Bearshandler

GSD07 said:


> @Bearshandler This is a family dog. The OP is regularly alone with the dog. The dog does not attack her when the husband is present so he got the message, he attacks her when the husband is not around. The dog does not respect the OP and thinks he can get away with his tantrums and moods and whatever is in his head.
> 
> If everything is dependent on the husband then the OP should never handle the dog and only interact with the muzzled dog under her husband’s close supervision, like a child. Or she can decide to be an equal partner and start building the relationship and take control.
> 
> My own dog is my husband’s dog, I don’t even question it. I also don’t give a crap about the dogs choice of a leader or his fantasies about climbing the social ladder. He has to listen to me, he cannot hurt me and he will benefit greatly because of such arrangements. He got it because I personally made sure the message was delivered crystal and clear.


You personally delivered that message crystal clear to a mature dog who was willing to attack you like this dog does to the OP? Or was this something you enforced on a young immature dog or puppy? Or is your dog not the type to come after someone he knows and lives with in the first place? My point is it probably isn’t an apples to apples comparison to what’s happening here. I would say this is less of a he doesn’t do it when the husband is present and more of along the lines of he hasn’t done it while the husband is present. We just got a story of him doing it while the husband was present. If the dog already responds to the husband better and listens to the husband better, he should step up and fix the issue. She probably shouldn’t be handling the dog or her own until they come up with and implement a solution. That solution may be waiting to see the effects of neutering.


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## wolfy dog

I think neutering will be THE solution (not!!!). All and all I find this whole drama a dysfunctional situation. I think there is much more going on behind the scenes than we will ever know and I am starting to feel sorry for the dog.


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## GSD07

Of course it was a young dog, why would I overlook the first warning signs? I posted my opinion, no one has to agree.


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## Saphire

wolfy dog said:


> I think neutering will be THE solution (not!!!). All and all I find this whole drama a dysfunctional situation. I think there is much more going on behind the scenes than we will ever know and I am starting to feel sorry for the dog.


Neutering IMO will do nothing for this situation, it could make it worse.


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## Bearshandler

Saphire said:


> Neutering IMO will do nothing for this situation, it could make it worse.


I think the dog has been neutered since the thread started. I’m of the opinion that fixing a dog can send aggression in either direction.


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> I think the dog has been neutered since the thread started. I’m of the opinion that fixing a dog can send aggression in either direction.


I am not aware of studies on neutering males, but spaying females has been pretty much proven to make bitches that are predisposed to aggression more aggressive. Sometimes much more.


----------



## Sunflowers

Sabis mom said:


> I am not aware of studies on neutering males, but spaying females has been pretty much proven to make bitches that are predisposed to aggression more aggressive. Sometimes much more.











Are There Behavior Changes When Dogs Are Spayed or Neutered?


Spaying or neutering dogs can cause unexpected and unwanted behavior changes.




www.psychologytoday.com













Neutering Causes Behavior Problems in Male Dogs


Neutered male dogs are more likely to show aggression and fear-related behavior.




www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## wolfy dog

Saphire said:


> Neutering IMO will do nothing for this situation, it could make it worse.


I agree, hence the (not!!!!) 😉


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## selzer

With reactive bitches, altering them removes certain female hormones some of which are used to appease other dogs in situations. If you alter a bitch after she is already reactive it can make it worse. Altering a bitch who is already fighting within the pack with other bitches will not help at all. 

Dogs are different, we are talking about removing testosterone generation and build up, not estrogen and oxytocin, so these are different. It takes a month before all the sperm is totally gone and the dog may still impregnate a bitch AFTER it has been neutered, for about a month (they say). I have a dog that was neutered prior to me getting him back at 18 months old, but he rides poor Hepzibah on every season like he isn't neutered. I turned him over, examined his testicles and called the vet that did the neuter to ensure they neutered him. In six and a half years, she has not become pregnant, so I suppose they got it. And as I have mentioned before, altering cattle and horses makes a considerable change in behavior and maybe temperament, as it is generally done prior to adult temperament being set. Maybe it is all testosterone. Maybe it is just those dogs that have an inordinate amount of testosterone in place. 

I do have puppy buyers that have had aggression in their young males, where neutering DID make a difference, noticeably. People who were considering returning their dogs. People who are very happy with their dogs now. I never believed this until I started making Kojak puppies. Kojak/Karma did produce a working K9, though that is really not what I am breeding for. But that level of willingness to bite humans is there. I did not have a problem with any Kojak puppy, but I have kept males up to 10 months, and have only females that are older. There is no point in me keeping a male out of Kojak because it will be related to every female I own by the time it is old enough to breed. So all the boys were placed. All are doing ok now. But the two Bear/Kojak puppies did much better after being neutered. I think most of Villain's littermates have been neutered except for Viking. And he is a bit of a pain, a little more territorial, and didn't like the kids horse playing in and around the pool, but my friend who has him has worked with him, and he will be 2 in September, and I think they are perfectly happy with his being intact at this point. And since she is the one that told me how much of a change nicking Deef's nads made, I think she will tell me if she feels it necessary to neuter Viking. 

Wolfy Dog, I believed the exact same thing that you are saying. But these two dogs changed my mind. I think that maybe if these dogs were kept by me and I raised them, I would never have any need to neuter. But that doesn't mean neutering might not make sense in other circumstances and improvement. For instance, I am single and live alone. I would have had the dog from birth. No one else would be providing him with the necessary stuff like food and water. The dog wouldn't know any better than I could squash him like a bug, which would have been true at birth. He wouldn't have a man's handling to get the idea that one person has a deeper voice and a stronger hand. So it's comparing apples to oranges. Just the amount of experience I now have will make dealing with one of those turkeys easier than someone who has had 3 dogs or 6 dogs over the course of a lifetime. I don't have all the answers so I am giving scenarios that have similarities, in hopes that they could possibly be helpful.


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## WNGD

Cyndi21 said:


> WNGD, I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have snapped at you. You're just trying to help. Thank you for that.
> This is going to be an uphill battle. Not because we can't keep Blue secure and me safe. That's not the problem. My husband really doesn't get it. I've told two of my friends what happened and showed them the wounds. Dh is good friends with one of their husbands. I think he could make him see how serious this is.


No apologies necessary. 
As much as it's easy for some (me) of use to come across as harsh or critical, it's grounded in the fact that we just love this breed. However, I particularly, often emphasize that they aren't for everyone, can be quite challenging to train and a few wrong turns can turn out problem dogs. Also understand that we see variations of your story here ever few weeks so sometimes skip tact to jump straight to what we think is the issue the issue.

Blue is beautiful but I believe needs a firm hand and experienced owners or a **** good trainer. Immediately.
And I wish you all the luck and good fortune possible; I don't doubt your good intentions whatsoever.


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## Cyndi21

Steve Strom said:


> I'd look at something like this, a little more tailored to your dogs muzzle size:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wire Basket Muzzle
> 
> 
> Wire Basket Dog Muzzles are a safe training tool to discourage dogs from biting, eating unwanted objects or to heal from oral procedures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rayallen.com


My First Choice was a wire basket muzzle but I thought that it might hurt him. Have you used them on your dog?


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## Jenny720

Wire basket muzzles will not hurt you dog. Will give good airflow and allow him to pant. A good sizing video they gave good wire basket muzzles as well. All dogs should be trained to use a muzzle.








How to Size Your Dog's Muzzle


Dogs within a specific breed can have a wide variety of head measurements. It is impossible to say that one muzzle size fits all Rottweilers or one muzzle size fits all Dobermans, etc. The only true way to determine what muzzle fits your dog is by measuring your dog's snout.




leerburg.com










Leerburg | Wire Basket Muzzle


This muzzle allows excellent airflow and has enough room for the dog to drink with the muzzle on. Made with heavy-duty chrome and imported from Germany.




leerburg.com


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## Cyndi21

Saphire said:


> I think of showing inhibition “during” an incident like this as not requiring a lot of sutures or suffering a fracture. The damage the dog could have done is indeed much worse than what the OP received. This dog was chewy and did not bite down hard enough to fracture and didn’t leaving massive gaping wounds. To me a growl is your warning and nothing to do with bite inhibition per say. The bite inhibition starts once they grab you. I could be way off base, that’s just how I think about it. I’d be shocked if this dog didn’t give warnings, could be subtle or not but the OP didn’t pick up on them. I’d be interested in what training methods that have been used up until now.
> I do believe this dog will escalate if serious steps aren’t taken. A tanked thyroid or high cortisol can cause unpredictable rage episodes, I’d still be starting with a thorough work up at the vets.


The only training Blue has received so far is puppy training and that ended when he was 4 months old, before any aggression showed. We will have his thyroid checked. I was not aware of high cortisol issues. I'm waiting to hear back from The Behavior Clinic near Cleveland. Hoping they will help. Thank you.


----------



## Cyndi21

ksotto333 said:


> If your husband is not on board on how serious this is, I don't know what you can do. I'm so sorry.


He is taking measures that I'm noticing. I always feed the dogs. This morning he removed his muzzle, fed him, and put it back on. He put him outside before he left for work. Blue will stay outside for the day. He also hasn't slept in our bedroom.
I tend to be impatient. Of course, who can blame me in this situation. Dh is a quiet man and usually doesn't share with me what's going through his head. He does a lot of thinking. He really is trying.


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## Cyndi21

wolfy dog said:


> I think neutering will be THE solution (not!!!). All and all I find this whole drama a dysfunctional situation. I think there is much more going on behind the scenes than we will ever know and I am starting to feel sorry for the dog.


Interestingly, we had originally decided not to neuter him. We had done some research together and found that it was probably going to be better for him health-wise down the road not to be neutered. Ironically I was telling my mother-in-law this when I was leading Blue outside and then he attacked me. That's what changed our minds. Maybe it was the wrong decision. I guess we'll find out.


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## Cyndi21

GSD07 said:


> So what is husband supposed to do? Agree to euthanize, rehome or get a trainer, that’s what the uphill battle the OP is talking about is? He got a muzzle, containment and separation is not a problem, the dog behaves in his presence.
> 
> OP, dogs form separate relationships with each and every separate family member. If a dog lives in your house you have to be able to manage him and be able to control him on your own at all times, alone or not.
> 
> You cannot live in fear for your life, you cannot live your life as a victim of abuse by your own dog, or any dog or a human for that matter. This would not be a healthy life. You have the right to refuse being under the same roof as your dog if you are not able to figure out on your own or with a trainers help how to bring a balance into your relationship with your dog.
> 
> I’m sorry to tell you but this is your task, your responsibility and your problem to solve, not your husband’s. I guarantee that he understands the gravity of the situation and is there to support you but you are the one who has to make your dog understand that he cannot mess with you anymore.


Actually, it is OUR task to fix this problem. I am convinced that dh is also a part of the problem. He did not go to any training classes When Blue was a puppy. I asked him to but he was too busy. He has agreed to go to training when we find someone who can help and I will hold him to that. We both also strongly believe in only positive reinforcement training. I don't know if that is possible at this point, but that is the direction that we are heading. If Blue is getting certain signals from dh and certain signals from me, then the poor dog is confused on top of everything else. Dh has always corrected me when he thinks I am doing something wrong when it comes to Blue. Dh may be his master, but we need to be a united front with his training going forward.


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## Sunsilver

'OUR problem"....well, that certainly gives me hope you may be able to fix this! Wishing you the best of luck with the trainer!


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> My First Choice was a wire basket muzzle but I thought that it might hurt him. Have you used them on your dog?


My current dog is fear aggressive. She is also snake quick and she doesn't bluff. 
I use a wire basket muzzle if we will be around people. The only thing I had an issue with is it gets hot in the sun. So don't leave it on your front seat. Lol. For normal use it isn't an issue, just something I discovered as I was keeping mine in the car.
They will hurt you though. Shadow developed a habit of bashing me in the knee with it. It does not tickle.


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## David Winners

Cyndi21 said:


> Actually, it is OUR task to fix this problem. I am convinced that dh is also a part of the problem. He did not go to any training classes When Blue was a puppy. I asked him to but he was too busy. He has agreed to go to training when we find someone who can help and I will hold him to that. We both also strongly believe in only positive reinforcement training. I don't know if that is possible at this point, but that is the direction that we are heading. If Blue is getting certain signals from dh and certain signals from me, then the poor dog is confused on top of everything else. Dh has always corrected me when he thinks I am doing something wrong when it comes to Blue. Dh may be his master, but we need to be a united front with his training going forward.


When positive only training fails, and it will, please seek out an experienced trainer that will help you understand how to fix this. I would do it but I'm in the middle of selling my house and camping a lot.

Take a look at upstate canine academy, Larry Krohn, Tyler Muto on YouTube. They all regularly train aggressive dogs after positive only trainers fail or make things worse.


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## Sunsilver

Please listen to Dave! All positive training has been shown not to work with strong breeds like the GSD, Belgian malinois and other breeds used for protection.


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## Squidwardp

The magazine for Schutzhund arrived last week. It had a potentially relevant story. I'll keep names out of it (though the magazine published every single name, because its executive board takes this stuff very seriously). 

A Schutzhund 3 dog and its trainer were at a conformation show, where the national breed conformation judge was about to examine the dogs teeth.
Appears the dog may be middle aged? About 7? He reportedly does not like having his teeth looked at. 
I would underscore, the folks conducting the exam and witnessing the attack that occurred were likely pretty experienced. Safe assumption, you don't get to be a national breed conformation warden by just walking off the street.

Dog attacked his handler, biting first her upper body, then working her way to the arm. Attack went on for a couple minutes. Handler managed to choke him out and get him to release.

An inquiry took place, with question of suspensions for dog and handler.

Dog's previous owner appears to be someone with decades of experience with GSDs and the Schutzhund sport. If not, person has exact same name of someone who fits that description.
He said he re-homed the dog because it had shown aggression, and bitten his wife. 

The US Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) Executive Board (EB) noted that while random attacks on other dogs or strangers are also concerning, and can be grounds for suspending a dog from shows and trials, they are especially concerned where the the dog attacks its owner or handler.

A couple people familiar with the dog evidently told the inquiry conductors that this was an anomaly, that they had trained with and around the dog (what does that mean? I dunno. . . Maybe they had their dog in a long down while he was out working or were working theirs while he was in long down; maybe they acted as part of a mock "group" or mock judge meeting the trial participant). 
They told the inquiry panel that in their view, the dog was not dangerous.

The EB decided not to suspend the handler, citing her honesty about the incident and the dog's history. I guess they could have also cited her clearheaded-ness and ability to physically get him to release while being attacked.

But they did suspend the dog for a year. 

Net, net, I don't know if there are some training or lack of training issues that have brought Blue to this point.

But the described event underscores this kind of thing can happen even to people with a lot of experience. 

Elite --non-elite...
Those terms came up before on this thread. I suppose I brought them up. To me, a handler who can take any dog to a Schutzhund 3 before USCA judges, and apparently successfully trial multiple times is "elite" relative to a person at the dog park with a clicker who coaxes decent basic obedience out of a Golden-doodle. And probably elite relative to the person at Petsmart who conducts puppy classes. I don't claim to be an "elite" handler by any definition. I do think if Blue were re-homed, he'd have to go to some one with a fair amount of experience, and some physical strength. 

The event also seems to underscore that a dog showing aggressiveness in one setting was successfully re-homed, showed and trialed without incident for some years, but then something of that old self resurfaced. Sometimes, maybe it is just the dog. 

Again, good luck, my real sympathies because I know dogs work their way into one's heart. Be safe first, then think of Blue's future.


----------



## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> When positive only training fails, and it will, please seek out an experienced trainer that will help you understand how to fix this. I would do it but I'm in the middle of selling my house and camping a lot.
> 
> Take a look at upstate canine academy, Larry Krohn, Tyler Muto on YouTube. They all regularly train aggressive dogs after positive only trainers fail or make things worse.


I was afraid someone was going to say that. But I do believe you.


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## ksotto333

Both strongly believe in positive only training, and this is where it has gotten you. Good luck.


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## Cyndi21

Just an FYI, before we even got Blue, I insisted that we fence in the entire yard because the driveway section was not, which he agreed to. I also insisted on training which he agreed to, but did not participate in. Again the only training he received was puppy training, nothing about the particular breed of the dog. My husband had a German Shepherd before but that dog was 3 years old when he got him and he was already neutered. Never any aggression, except for some growling every so often. So I think my husband is realizing that he doesn't know as much about German shepherds as he thought he did. 
The Behavior Clinic called me a little while ago. For 1 1/2 hour session including an exam and blood work, they charge $560. They do deal with aggressive dogs, they don't guarantee the dog will never bite again, but they have about a 90% rate. I'm not sure if that's good or not


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## GSD07

Well, your DH didn’t participate in training but the dog listens to him better and does not attack him. Puppy training as in Puppies running around and playing with each other is not exactly training either. Good for you for trying to figure out the solution together! 
You will definitely need to use positive methods but also have to be prepared to give a correction. Hopefully the behaviorists help you (I do not believe in behaviorists but my experience is limited so good luck!)


----------



## wolfy dog

Just thinking out loud. I have done years of pet dog training and also helped people with aggressive dogs. However this dog is way beyond what I have ever experienced. One dog came close; this was a medium sized Labradoodle spayed young bitch, owned by an old couple. The woman had similar wounds (the husband didn't have the problem) and was referred to me by her vet. She had the dog leashed when I came in the door and for sure she was intended to eat me alive if she hadn't been. This was aggression to anybody, pack member or not. I advised her to contact her breeder but they declined, they love the dog and were going to just stick it out. So I left. Not sure why I was invited in their home, probably because the vet told them to call me. I would actually have declined the offer to help them as I don't have enough experience with this kind of severe behavior. OP, has your dog ever shown aggression to a stranger? If not, a new trainer can have success initially as this is probably within the pack dynamics. If that is the case for sure, success maybe deceiving. Someone with more experience correct me if I am wrong.


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## selzer

Squidwardp said:


> The magazine for Schutzhund arrived last week. It had a potentially relevant story. I'll keep names out of it (though the magazine published every single name, because its executive board takes this stuff very seriously).
> 
> A Schutzhund 3 dog and its trainer were at a conformation show, where the national breed conformation judge was about to examine the dogs teeth.
> Appears the dog may be middle aged? About 7? He reportedly does not like having his teeth looked at.
> I would underscore, the folks conducting the exam and witnessing the attack that occurred were likely pretty experienced. Safe assumption, you don't get to be a national breed conformation warden by just walking off the street.
> 
> Dog attacked his handler, biting first her upper body, then working her way to the arm. Attack went on for a couple minutes. Handler managed to choke him out and get him to release.
> 
> An inquiry took place, with question of suspensions for dog and handler.
> 
> Dog's previous owner appears to be someone with decades of experience with GSDs and the Schutzhund sport. If not, person has exact same name of someone who fits that description.
> He said he re-homed the dog because it had shown aggression, and bitten his wife.
> 
> The US Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) Executive Board (EB) noted that while random attacks on other dogs or strangers are also concerning, and can be grounds for suspending a dog from shows and trials, they are especially concerned where the the dog attacks its owner or handler.
> 
> A couple people familiar with the dog evidently told the inquiry conductors that this was an anomaly, that they had trained with and around the dog (what does that mean? I dunno. . . Maybe they had their dog in a long down while he was out working or were working theirs while he was in long down; maybe they acted as part of a mock "group" or mock judge meeting the trial participant).
> They told the inquiry panel that in their view, the dog was not dangerous.
> 
> The EB decided not to suspend the handler, citing her honesty about the incident and the dog's history. I guess they could have also cited her clearheaded-ness and ability to physically get him to release while being attacked.
> 
> But they did suspend the dog for a year.
> 
> Net, net, I don't know if there are some training or lack of training issues that have brought Blue to this point.
> 
> But the described event underscores this kind of thing can happen even to people with a lot of experience.
> 
> Elite --non-elite...
> Those terms came up before on this thread. I suppose I brought them up. To me, a handler who can take any dog to a Schutzhund 3 before USCA judges, and apparently successfully trial multiple times is "elite" relative to a person at the dog park with a clicker who coaxes decent basic obedience out of a Golden-doodle. And probably elite relative to the person at Petsmart who conducts puppy classes. I don't claim to be an "elite" handler by any definition. I do think if Blue were re-homed, he'd have to go to some one with a fair amount of experience, and some physical strength.
> 
> The event also seems to underscore that a dog showing aggressiveness in one setting was successfully re-homed, showed and trialed without incident for some years, but then something of that old self resurfaced. Sometimes, maybe it is just the dog.
> 
> Again, good luck, my real sympathies because I know dogs work their way into one's heart. Be safe first, then think of Blue's future.


Wow, so much to respond to overnight. I'll start with this. What kind of useless piece of dung rehomes a dog that bit his wife, when he has trained dogs to an "elite" level? This makes me so furious I could spit. The club shouldn't suspend the owner, it should suspend or ex-communicate the previous owner. If you have that kind of a problem with a dog, you don't hand it off to ANYONE else, unless that person has a LOT more experience with aggressive dogs than you do, and with full disclosure. This is why Shepherds have a bad rap. 

I don't understand the point of suspending the dog for a time period unless they are giving some requirements about what needs to happen with the dog before it is shown again. 

The reason positive training fails is because people confuse positive with permissive. One can train a dog with positive only methods if they can manage the basics of training itself: such as always following through, timing, not giving a command that you can't immediately enforce, not repeating commands, and so forth. People who fail to train with positive methods because they fail to train, are the most adamant that it doesn't work. Bad training is bad training, and there are probably as many bad positive trainers as there are any other kind of trainer out there. Any method works if you believe in the method and adhere to it and follow the basic principles of training. 

Don't say this breed can't be trained with positive training because that isn't true as most blanket statements are not true. You can say that some German Shepherds will do better with other methods, and that will be true for some of them. Positive Only training is kind of like playing baseball with one hand tied behind your back, because you are cutting off any communication that the dog did the wrong thing. Using Eh! or No! would not be allowed and that cripples a trainer as it cripples a communicator. If you are saying by positive only that you are not using physical corrections, then yeah, you can do that without damage to the dog or the training process with ANY dog. But you have to be disciplined. Dogs respond to consistency, calm and patient leaders, and praise for doing the right thing. And, they respond to inconsistency, irritation and frustration in their leader, and lack of praise and poor timing. Some positive trainers do incredible damage to the dogs they are training or helping people train because they haven't mastered the basics and have not the first idea how to instill them in the human end of the equation. 

I think I am going to think of "DH" as "Designated Hitter" from here on out. Is the accepted abbreviation for "Wife" DW? I don't know. I am not big in on dominance theory, but your dog seems to have gotten the idea that the man of the house is to be obeyed and that your place in the order is below his. I don't think your husband should be correcting you with regard to the dog in the moment. I think the dog it reinforces the idea that the dog is above you. that he does not have to listen to you, and that he can push you around with his teeth. Sometimes, maybe often women have a softer, higher voice, and too often the turn up their statements at the end to add in a question mark. I think we are being conditioned to do this, or have been. A man says SIT. and the dog dog sits. A woman says Si-i-it? and the dog looks at her like she is from some alien planet. Why do we do that? I think it is conditioning. Guys are brought up to be confident a and decisive and women are brought up to conjole and to use their feminine wiles to get the guy to do what she wants. Even if she knows what is best, she can get there by making it his discovery, his choice, always giving him the say. It becomes second nature and women are great at it. But it doesn't work with dogs. We have to be the leader outright. Not the leader by getting him to believe he is in charge. There are a LOT of GSDs out there that seem to follow the husband and not the wife. We have to hear ourselves, and that is really hard to do.


----------



## Squidwardp

selzer said:


> What kind of useless piece of dung rehomes a dog that bit his wife, when he has trained dogs to an "elite" level? This makes me so furious I could spit. The club shouldn't suspend the owner, it should suspend or ex-communicate the previous owner. If you have that kind of a problem with a dog, you don't hand it off to ANYONE else, unless that person has a LOT more experience with aggressive dogs than you do, and with full disclosure. This is why Shepherds have a bad rap.
> 
> I don't understand the point of suspending the dog for a time period unless they are giving some requirements about what needs to happen with the dog before it is shown again.


I don't know any of the persons involved, or for that matter, any of the national executive board. But probably some of the same concerns voiced on this thread were in play.
Reluctance to completely give up on the dog. Someone willing to take him on with open eyes about his past, and work with him on muting or controlling his aggressive tendencies. The story did say the current owner had done that. It seems safe to say the original owner did not re-home him to an unsuspecting person who just wanted a nice pet to be around their children.


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## Rionel

$560.00 likely involves a significant portion for the blood work/exam. It might me the best money you spend in a while if it keeps you safe. There are so many things that could act as acute or even cumulative triggers in your situation, which is why I wouldn't hesitate to go the exam/blood work/train route. There's also the genetic predisposition and thresholds, should your dog's health turn out to be perfect. Those coupled with behavior history that got missed can become a bear to deal with.


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## Sabis mom

Rionel said:


> $560.00 likely involves a significant portion for the blood work/exam. It might me the best money you spend in a while if it keeps you safe. There are so many things that could act as acute or even cumulative triggers in your situation, which is why I wouldn't hesitate to go the exam/blood work/train route. There's also the genetic predisposition and thresholds, should your dog's health turn out to be perfect. Those coupled with behavior history that got missed can become a bear to deal with.


*Note: *The consultation cost is $560. Your pet's treatment plan may include supplements, prescription medication, follow up appointments, lab testing and behavioral therapy. These items are NOT included in the consultation fee. 

That is what I just took from their website. I'm not sure about this place. I keep looking at their website and it's pay for this to prepare to pay for that which will prepare you to pay for something else.


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## Sunflowers

Looks as if they rely on doping the dog, which is not a solution in my opinion.


----------



## WNGD

Cyndi21 said:


> Just an FYI, before we even got Blue, I insisted that we fence in the entire yard because the driveway section was not, which he agreed to. I also insisted on training which he agreed to, but did not participate in. Again the only training he received was puppy training, nothing about the particular breed of the dog. My husband had a German Shepherd before but that dog was 3 years old when he got him and he was already neutered. Never any aggression, except for some growling every so often. So I think my husband is realizing that he doesn't know as much about German shepherds as he thought he did.
> The Behavior Clinic called me a little while ago. For 1 1/2 hour session including an exam and blood work, they charge $560. They do deal with aggressive dogs, they don't guarantee the dog will never bite again, but they have about a 90% rate. I'm not sure if that's good or not


Just a quick note then; I have had 6 GSD in my life and quite a few other breeds ownership or significant exposure (family dogs) and although there are similarities to all the GSDs, there are also great personality and drive differences. Just because DH acquired a GSD that was 3 years old years ago, respectfully, qualifies him for squat. Many many owners come here having had a beautiful calm well behaved GSD as a child (at least that's what memory tells us) and finds the examples of today are far different.

And once a biter, you have fallen into an entirely different world. Even if you believe in all positive training, it's not for a serious biter imo.


----------



## Saphire

I struggle with positive only training, it fits a very small % of dogs in my limited opinion. It’s like putting blinders on and hoping for the best with limited resources for tools and corrections. I’d be looking for a balanced trainer that has lots of tools in the toolbox.


----------



## Cyndi21

Sabis mom said:


> *Note: *The consultation cost is $560. Your pet's treatment plan may include supplements, prescription medication, follow up appointments, lab testing and behavioral therapy. These items are NOT included in the consultation fee.
> 
> That is what I just took from their website. I'm not sure about this place. I keep looking at their website and it's pay for this to prepare to pay for that which will prepare you to pay for something else.


This is what I think we should do:

"Prior to your consultation with one of our veterinarians, you will participate in a 1 hour pre-consultation appointment with one of our experienced team members. Their goal is to provide initial steps to establish safety, prevention and management techniques specific to your situation now, before you meet with the veterinarian. 

Pre-Consultation appointments are provided via telemedicine (video conference) through your pet's patient portal. You will need a smart phone, tablet, computer or laptop with video and audio capabilities. Our team is happy to help you test your set up prior to your appointment!

The cost of the Pre-Consultation appointment is $135 (this cost does NOT include additional products, services, or appointments)."

This way if it's not what we need, we don't even have to make a trip there. I've read a number of positive reviews, none of them relating to aggression.


----------



## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> This is what I think we should do:
> 
> "Prior to your consultation with one of our veterinarians, you will participate in a 1 hour pre-consultation appointment with one of our experienced team members. Their goal is to provide initial steps to establish safety, prevention and management techniques specific to your situation now, before you meet with the veterinarian.
> 
> Pre-Consultation appointments are provided via telemedicine (video conference) through your pet's patient portal. You will need a smart phone, tablet, computer or laptop with video and audio capabilities. Our team is happy to help you test your set up prior to your appointment!
> 
> The cost of the Pre-Consultation appointment is $135 (this cost does NOT include additional products, services, or appointments)."
> 
> This way if it's not what we need, we don't even have to make a trip there. I've read a number of positive reviews, none of them relating to aggression.


I'm concerned that I see a lot about everything BUT training on their site. 
I think you should reach out to @David Winners, who suggested a couple of trainers and has experience with very serious dogs. No I don't get a commission, lol. But I have dealt with aggression, and I have stood where you are now. Chasing my own tail, trying desperately to find help from anywhere. And spending cash hand over fist for no answers. Fighting the world to save a **** dog. I learned a lot about things. Easy dogs make mediocre trainers look fantastic, it's the tough ones that separate the wheat from the chaff. Look for the trainers that admit they failed, look for the ones that stuck it out with the lost causes, look for the ones that are brutally honest. Stay well clear of the all dogs are perfect ones, because the harsh truth is that while most may be savable some shouldn't be. Always put your emotional and financial well being first, because with a truly difficult dog if you fall they are sunk and there are worse places for a difficult dog then you need to imagine.
The nerve damage in my right arm was from crushing bites by a dog with no canines, through a winter jacket. The bites did not LOOK bad, the damage was severe and required months of therapy to regain most of the use.
I will stop rambling now. Sorry.


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## wolfy dog

One hour with "our experienced team members". Sure......I wouldn't fall for that one. Take the dog to a trainer that David mentioned. It might be life saving for dog and OP.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I would trust Tyler Muto but does he actively take cases anymore? Perhaps whoever is running his business. You can’t really afford to make a mistake with the solution here. 

not that I am suggesting taking the muzzle off— but the dog is outside in the yard all day wearing it in July? Can he pant sufficiently? Those Baskervilles do not allow for much opening of the mouth.
When I had to do extended summer training with mine I bought him a wire basket from Fordogtrainers.com that allowed him to open his mouth much more than a Baskerville. In FL he would have died doing that training in the wrong muzzle.

I got a Bumas that I love but idk if it is sturdy enough to protect you from this dog.

I don’t really understand your husband’s attitude about this. I know it’s his dog but it hurt you, bad. I don’t know.


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## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> When positive only training fails, and it will, please seek out an experienced trainer that will help you understand how to fix this. I would do it but I'm in the middle of selling my house and camping a lot.
> 
> Take a look at upstate canine academy, Larry Krohn, Tyler Muto on YouTube. They all regularly train aggressive dogs after positive only trainers fail or make things worse.


Thank you David. I looked at Tyler Muto. I'm going to have a tough time convincing my husband because Tyler uses more aggressive methods. I'll look at Larry Krohn too.
Earlier in this thread, you asked where I was located. We're in northeast Ohio.


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## Cyndi21

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I would trust Tyler Muto but does he actively take cases anymore? Perhaps whoever is running his business. You can’t really afford to make a mistake with the solution here.
> 
> not that I am suggesting taking the muzzle off— but the dog is outside in the yard all day wearing it in July? Can he pant sufficiently? Those Baskervilles do not allow for much opening of the mouth.
> When I had to do extended summer training with mine I bought him a wire basket from Fordogtrainers.com that allowed him to open his mouth much more than a Baskerville. In FL he would have died doing that training in the wrong muzzle.
> 
> I got a Bumas that I love but idk if it is sturdy enough to protect you from this dog.
> 
> I don’t really understand your husband’s attitude about this. I know it’s his dog but it hurt you, bad. I don’t know.


The muzzle is a bit big on him, but he can pant, bark, and drink with it on. He's been so good about it. He doesn't try to take it off, just shakes his head sometimes. 

Oh, and someone asked what DH means. It's dear husband, DW is darling wife, etc. Sometimes it means dear hardhead or dear hopeless.


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## Sunflowers

Positive only works for docile breeds.
These dogs were meant to work, work hard, and work hard for tough people with tough jobs.
These are not lap dogs, and they will need corrections and that is OK.
The current mentality so many have of all sugar, roses and unicorns baffles me.
But I belong to the generation of people who accepted criticism and corrections as necessary to learn, grow, and do the right thing.


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## Rionel

I can't imagine this dog will survive long term without some level of compulsion training.


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## Roscoe618

I am starting to think the OP and her husband are not taking this situation seriously enough....they may think they are by muzzling the dog, but they are not.

Early on in this thread I mentioned that I just went through this exact same situation with my dog just 5 months ago and that OP was welcome to PM me about what we had to do but she did not. If someone had offered me this I would have been pming ASAP. But this is just my opinion...don't mean to disrespect you and your husband's decisions or actions. This is a very hard situation to be in! I am very sorry for you, your husband, and your dog.


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## wolfy dog

Positive reinforcement is working well for the OP only. Lots of responses but no results so far in the 10 pages here besides the "yes buts". I give up. Good luck.


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## Sunsilver

Cyndi21 said:


> I'm going to have a tough time convincing my husband because Tyler uses more aggressive methods.


The all-positive people will try to convince you anyone who doesn't use their methods is a cruel, evil person who will ruin your dog. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, there are old-school methods that are abusive. But correcting a dog by telling it no, or using a leash pop are not. A punishment can also be just withholding a reward - look up the 4 quadrants of behaviour modification, which is what all training is based on these days.


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## Cyndi21

Roscoe618 said:


> I am starting to think the OP and her husband are not taking this situation seriously enough....they may think they are by muzzling the dog, but they are not.
> 
> Early on in this thread I mentioned that I just went through this exact same situation with my dog just 5 months ago and that OP was welcome to PM me about what we had to do but she did not. If someone had offered me this I would have been pming ASAP. But this is just my opinion...don't mean to disrespect you and your husband's decisions or actions. This is a very hard situation to be in! I am very sorry for you, your husband, and your dog.


We are taking this seriously. I prefer not to PM, but I will. Thank you.


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## Cyndi21

wolfy dog said:


> Positive reinforcement is working well for the OP only. Lots of responses but no results so far in the 10 pages here besides the "yes buts". I give up. Good luck.


Please don't give up on me. I'm listening. I am not 100% for positive reinforcement training. That was mainly because we didn't want Blue to become aggressive. But he has, so where has that gotten us. Nowhere.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Cyndi21 said:


> Thank you David. I looked at Tyler Muto. I'm going to have a tough time convincing my husband because Tyler uses more aggressive methods. I'll look at Larry Krohn too.
> Earlier in this thread, you asked where I was located. We're in northeast Ohio.



This is what I don't get. Hubby disapproves because Tyler Muto uses "more aggressive methods" --look what this dog did to you! Why is that tolerable to your husband and not balanced training for the dog that did this to you? Something's really off about that for me, and it should be to you too.

Look, I'm the last person who wants anybody to take a dog to a heavy handed trainer. I know less about Larry Krohn than Muto, but Tyler Muto is not what I would call heavy handed or "aggressive" trainer. He is a guy with a really solid knowledge of how dogs learn, how to get them to change, and he has compassion for them. He does not make training decisions based on nonsense woo woo ego crap that so many yank and crank trainers do. 

Pack this dog up and take it down for a board and train with Ivan in Florida.


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## Roscoe618

Cyndi21 said:


> We are taking this seriously. I prefer not to PM, but I will. Thank you.


The only reason I offered PM was to keep this thread about your situation.


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## Rionel

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Tyler Muto is not what I would call heavy handed or "aggressive" trainer.


...and any reputable trainer will work initially to establish a rapport with the dog first. It is not a "_*beatings will continue until morale improves*_" mindset at all. "Positive" isn't synonymous with "Pleasant", and "Negative" isn't synonymous with "Unpleasant". That's why it is important to avail yourself of a pro in this type of situation. Hope this works out before you experience any further injury.


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## Cyndi21

Rionel said:


> ...and any reputable trainer will work initially to establish a rapport with the dog first. It is not a "_*beatings will continue until morale improves*_" mindset at all. "Positive" isn't synonymous with "Pleasant", and "Negative" isn't synonymous with "Unpleasant". That's why it is important to avail yourself of a pro in this type of situation. Hope this works out before you experience any further injury.


I will share this with my husband. I started talking to him this evening about looking into a trainer that isn't positive reinforcement based. He'll listen if I keep at him and share what many of you have said. Thank you.


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## middleofnowhere

Positive primarily and it depends on the dog and the handler and the situaition. I try to keep physical corrections to a minimum but I do not always succeed. Verbal dope slaps work with dogs but sometimes the handler needs it more. 

My feeling is that the OP & her situation are beyond what the board can offer.


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## HollandN

If I had an aggressive dog I would find a good trainer fast Not come to a board where everyone has a different opinion. It’s such a huge liability to have a dog like this. Plus the responsibility of ensuring no one else gets bitten. There are so many good dogs in the shelters who would love a home


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## tim_s_adams

Cyndi21 said:


> Please don't give up on me. I'm listening. I am not 100% for positive reinforcement training. That was mainly because we didn't want Blue to become aggressive. But he has, so where has that gotten us. Nowhere.


Seriously, sit down with your husband and watch a few Upstate Canine Academy videos on YouTube! He uses prong collars and ecollars and slip leads. But it's not what most people think about when they picture compulsion or balanced training even!

Watching numerous dogs transform in just a single session is a real eye opener for people. He doesn't do competition training, it's all pet training, but he explains well and proves his results!


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## selzer

I am open to all training methods, but your DH needs to understand that your dog is inches away from euthanasia. I can see bite inhibition and that what he did could be much worse, but someone outside your inner circle who is on the receiving end of half of that is probably not going to think about how much worse it could have been. They can take it to court and get your dog dead. 

I don't know if your dog will go after strangers. But that you posted pictures of what he did to you, if he does go after strangers, then he already has a history of aggression and any lawyer who wants to sue the pants off of you will have all the evidence he needs. The dog is a liability in his current state. So your DH needs to understand that if you do not do something, something that seriously changes what is going on, his dog is going to be on that one-way ticket to the vet's office. I'm still holding out some hope for the neuter. But not even considering another training method because it is "more aggressive"? 

The current training isn't working for your dog and you. A good trainer trains the dog and handler in front of him, and uses training methods that are best for the dog AND the handler. Other trainers have the my-way-or-the-highway approach. If you tell a soft-spoken, soft hearted woman to strongly correct a dog that will bite her, she's likely to get bitten again. I think that the NILIF nothing-in-life-is-free approach, begins by changing leadership style so that the dog understands what he can and cannot do with non-confrontational methods. I don't know though. I agree with whoever said that it is beyond the scope of this forum. But it's still good to come on and bounce things off us and report progress. I think most of us would love for your dog to get over himself and be the pet that you and your husband want. No one wants for your dog to be put down. But no one wants for you to be seriously injured again either.


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> Please don't give up on me. I'm listening. I am not 100% for positive reinforcement training. That was mainly because we didn't want Blue to become aggressive. But he has, so where has that gotten us. Nowhere.


No one is giving up. We want this to work. 

Balanced training doesn't make dogs aggressive. Genetics, lack of boundaries and no consequences make dogs aggressive.
An old trainer whose methods are often misused and misunderstood said "your dog has a right to know that it's actions have consequences" 
He was right.
The problem with a German Shepherd sized dog is that once they reach this stage you need to know what you are doing, because otherwise you are picking a fight that you will probably lose.
I want you to show this to your husband.
What if the next time Blue decides to attack you hubby is right there? What happens? Hubby loses it and grabs the dog? 
Maybe the dog backs off, and hubby decides to deal with training, OR Blue says hey You are supposed to be my pal! and turns on hubby. 
Now what? 
Do either of you have the skill to stop an attacking dog? Or the presence of mind to do it? Can you do it one handed? Or with a large dog hanging off you? I've seen an awful lot of tough guys on the ground screaming over dog bites.

Your dog is escalating. This isn't going away. No amount of praise will fix this. And ignoring and avoiding isn't love.
Get the dog the training he needs or call the game now before some gets really hurt.


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## Sunsilver

Checked out the Canine Academy - wow! Is this ever a good video!


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## tim_s_adams

He's good! Both at explaining his methods, and in implementing them!

Good friends with Leeheerburg trainer Michael Ellis. They have a great relationship.

I don't train the way he does, but, he seems pretty good to me...


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## Jenny720

Having your own dog attack you the way that he did and your feelings are to want to go to an all positive trainer are all very unusual. Deep down I hope you both realize your dog needs more. Instincts are very important here. Seriously invest in the time to contact the trainers mentioned here. I honestly do not think you have the time to invest in a multiple type of different trainers to get to where you want to be. Getting the trainer that you need from the start with the recommendations you are given you would be ahead of the game in that regards. One of the biggest battles is getting the finding the right trainer.


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## Sunsilver

Let me just emphasize this: for this situation, board and train is useless. YOU and your husband need to find out how to deal with this dog yourself. You will see how in the two videos - the one with the mastiff and the one just after it with the GSD - the dogs react very well to the trainer, but not so well to their handler. It's the OWNER that needs to learn what to do and what not to do. It's the OWNER that's triggering the bad behaviour. Do not waste your money on board and train!


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## tim_s_adams

Jenny720 said:


> One of the biggest battles is getting the finding the right trainer.


Such a true statement! All "trainers" are nowhere near alike! One has to be careful whom they let their dog interact with!!!


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## Jenny720

Dogs are comfortable with their owners they feel safe so they will easier challenge the boundaries with their owner. (Much like kids do with their parents - ) They learn really fast what they can get away with and it can easily becomes a habit. They may respond often more positively initially with other trainers as they are out their comfort zone and responding to only the energy at that moment. Animals are very good are reading people’s energy. Their is not any relationship with a trainer and the dog who is their to be trained it’s all black and white relationship. Animals respond best to instruction when it’s black and white. Its the clarity of it all their is no in between the lines. It’s good for the owners to see what their dogs are capable of when battling an issue especially and then how to get the same results with timing and body language which takes practice. I don’t think board and training is a good idea in this situation. It looks like the trainer Tim adams has mentioned may travel or it most certainly is worth a trip or for any trainer here such as Tyler Muto or trainers in these same catagories. A health evaluation is needed.


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## David Winners

This dog will probably not act up with an experienced trainer. The benefit to board and train, with the right trainer, is a solid OB foundation with proofing. This will instill the tools necessary for this family to handle the dog. It will also give the dog the opportunity to learn from stable dogs, burn off stress, and lower the likelihood of the dog practicing bad behaviors.

There is a big problem with how people are living with the dog. No rules, just suggestions. Increasing hormones. Isolation. Stress. No one to follow with confidence. No training in drive. No impulse control.

The transformation can happen fast once the humans are on board, and there is solid OB to work on. It gives both the dog and the owners confidence. It, hopefully, stops the chatter and inconsistency in commands. 

This isn't about forcing the dog into anything. It is about clear, concise leadership with rules. Willing compliance to commands in all situations with competing motivators comes from skilled training with good timing and 100% feedback. No new owner is going to achieve this without time and education. 

The learning curve is too steep for this to happen at home IMO. When you hand someone a dog they can control, demonstrate how to control that dog, and then demonstrate how to live with that dog, the owners are in a much better situation than if you just try and teach the owners how to apply rewards and corrections and some training techniques.


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## Cyndi21

Sunsilver said:


> Checked out the Canine Academy - wow! Is this ever a good video!


Thank you thank you thank you!! That was an awesome video. Blue is so much like Cooper, it's uncanny. I'm ashamed to admit that Blue doesn't know all of the commands that Cooper does so not only do we need aggression training, we need more basic training too. My husband is working right now but I told him we are going to watch this video together later. I think he'll really enjoy it.


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## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> This dog will probably not act up with an experienced trainer. The benefit to board and train, with the right trainer, is a solid OB foundation with proofing. This will instill the tools necessary for this family to handle the dog. It will also give the dog the opportunity to learn from stable dogs, burn off stress, and lower the likelihood of the dog practicing bad behaviors.
> 
> There is a big problem with how people are living with the dog. No rules, just suggestions. Increasing hormones. Isolation. Stress. No one to follow with confidence. No training in drive. No impulse control.
> 
> The transformation can happen fast once the humans are on board, and there is solid OB to work on. It gives both the dog and the owners confidence. It, hopefully, stops the chatter and inconsistency in commands.
> 
> This isn't about forcing the dog into anything. It is about clear, concise leadership with rules. Willing compliance to commands in all situations with competing motivators comes from skilled training with good timing and 100% feedback. No new owner is going to achieve this without time and education.
> 
> The learning curve is too steep for this to happen at home IMO. When you hand someone a dog they can control, demonstrate how to control that dog, and then demonstrate how to live with that dog, the owners are in a much better situation than if you just try and teach the owners how to apply rewards and corrections and some training techniques.


I'm going to listen to David on what we should do. A number of you here have highly recommended him. I'm not discounting anyone else's advice whatsoever! I have just made a decision. 
I think Tyler Muto's K9 Connection in Buffalo, NY is the way to go. I just hope the wait time isn't too long. We will get Blue checked out physically and neurologically before we go. The hardest part is getting my husband to agree. It's not that he doesn't want to do something. He does. He needs to be shown and convinced. He's very stubborn. But so am I! I got this, thanks to ALL of you.


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## David Winners

Also check out Larry Krohn at Pak Masters.


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## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> Also check out Larry Krohn at Pak Masters.


Thank you, I will.


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## techinstructor

Cyndi21, I commend you for listening to the advice on this thread. So many people come on this board and ask for advice then argue with the good advice that's given. You have listened and thought it through. Good luck! Let us know how it goes. We're cheering for you!


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## Sunsilver

Cyndi21 said:


> Thank you thank you thank you!! That was an awesome video. Blue is so much like Cooper, it's uncanny. I'm ashamed to admit that Blue doesn't know all of the commands that Cooper does so not only do we need aggression training, we need more basic training too. My husband is working right now but I told him we are going to watch this video together later. I think he'll really enjoy it.


Did you watch the one just after this with the German shepherd? It was very eye-opening too!


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## Cyndi21

techinstructor said:


> Cyndi21, I commend you for listening to the advice on this thread. So many people come on this board and ask for advice then argue with the good advice that's given. You have listened and thought it through. Good luck! Let us know how it goes. We're cheering for you!


Thank you! My biggest hurdle now is getting hubby on board. I will succeed and keep everyone posted.


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## Cyndi21

Sunsilver said:


> Did you watch the one just after this with the German shepherd? It was very eye-opening too!


I will and let you know what I think. Thanks!


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## Cyndi21

Question: does anyone know of any dog trainers as good as Larry Krohn or Tyler Muto that are closer to Cleveland Ohio. Don't get me wrong. We will definitely travel to wherever we need to to get Blue the help and training that he needs. Thank you.


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> Question: does anyone know of any dog trainers as good as Larry Krohn or Tyler Muto that are closer to Cleveland Ohio. Don't get me wrong. We will definitely travel to wherever we need to to get Blue the help and training that he needs. Thank you.


I would reach out to them and see if they can recommend anyone.


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## Cyndi21

Sunsilver said:


> Did you watch the one just after this with the German shepherd? It was very eye-opening too!


You were right. That was eye-opening! And it's similar to how we are with Blue. We both need training as well. Thank you.


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## Cyndi21

Sabis mom said:


> I would reach out to them and see if they can recommend anyone.


Great idea. Seems so obvious now. Thanks!


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## selzer

I am an hour east of Cleveland, and Buffalo is about 3 hours East of me. I think. It'll be a long day for humans and dog, but if the guy is someone you can trust out of the gate, it will be well worth the struggle of trying to figure out if the trainer is helping, knows what they are doing, is over his/her head, etc. There is also the possibility that the trainer has contacts in Cleveland that once he gets you started, you can go there more regularly. 

I think it would be well worth the day trip to see someone you are confident knows what they are doing in action. Because half the battle of finding a good trainer is not knowing what good training looks like, and we lose precious months working with people who at best, are the blind leading the blind.


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## K9WolfAlpha

"That stuff with Cesar, sigh, the dog would bite, and they knew that, and doing a Cesar-crap-training, yeah it can work IF and only if you are already a seasoned dog trainer. Half the crap that guy does, he doesn't even know why or what he is doing until after he did it, then he tells you why he did it after the fact, while he is figuring out what just happened."

Cesar stole most of what he does from Barbara Woodhouse and never gives her credit.


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## WNGD

Sunsilver said:


> Checked out the Canine Academy - wow! Is this ever a good video!


Fantastic video, shows how much time, effort and different people are involved to get a dog just improving, not perfect yet. I honestly don't think the vast majority of GSD and other working breed owners understand how much time and effort it takes to produce a sound, level dog. "My 2 year old dog won't walk nicely on the leash" is baffling to me.


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## Sunsilver

So often these videos show how the dog was at first, then show it walking perfectly on the leash. They skip all the hard work and setbacks that come in between! This one shows it all.


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## Cyndi21

We are leaning towards Larry Krohn with PakMasters in Bowling Green, KY. There are 6 places we're looking at, and he's my favorite. After hubby read his website and watched videos, he agrees. Yay!!! 
Funny thing is we have family in Kentucky and we go there often. It's another 2 or so hour drive, but we think it's worth it. We're not 100% going with Larry yet. Hubby will speak with him and we'll go from there. Cross your fingers.
Again, thank you to everyone for all your help and for putting up with me. I'll keep you posted. 😁


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## Sabis mom

WNGD said:


> My 2 year old dog won't walk nicely on the leash


I laughed when I read this! My 10 year old dog doesn't walk nicely on a leash. I suck and she is too evolved for obedience. lol.


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## GSD07

When a dog is 10 years old, it’s the owner who has to walk nicely on the leash


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## Sunsilver

I did schutzhund with Star. She did pass her BH, but forging (wanting to be out ahead) was a constant problem with her!
I never did cure her of it completely - it was part of her nature. When we were walking off leash, she'd always be at least 10 or 15 feet ahead of me, while Eska would either be at my side, or slightly behind.

And if she knew you wanted to put her back on the leash, she'd always walk faster. She was very deaf the last two years of her life, but I sometimes wondered just how much was deafness and how much was that stubborn streak that was so much a part of her!


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## serene77

What I am going to say is probably going to be very unpopular but I would NEVER allow a dog that bit me or anyone else with that kind of aggression to remain in my home. Do you have kids? Do kids every visit you? Does anyone elderly ever visit you? You have a responsibility to every person that comes in contact with your dog. Yes, they are family members but they are animals. People come first. If you have the money, have the dog evaluated by a trainer that your vet recommends but if the dog shows any sign of aggression again, that would be it. Yes, it would hurt to put your dog down but it would hurt a whole lot more if he harmed someone, especially a child.


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## selzer

K9WolfAlpha said:


> "That stuff with Cesar, sigh, the dog would bite, and they knew that, and doing a Cesar-crap-training, yeah it can work IF and only if you are already a seasoned dog trainer. Half the crap that guy does, he doesn't even know why or what he is doing until after he did it, then he tells you why he did it after the fact, while he is figuring out what just happened."
> 
> Cesar stole most of what he does from Barbara Woodhouse and never gives her credit.


Barbara Woodhouse? is she the "Walkies!!!" lady? I used to like her, saw her on TV when I was a kid. Then I read her book while my dad was getting an MRI. I wasn't impressed. I think we are talking about the same lady. I can see how Cesar got a lot of his stuff from her.


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## Sunsilver

Yes, that's her! Used to have her book. She used to breed great Danes, so she wasn't exactly a lap dog trainer that didn't know how to train strong dogs.

There are some things Cesar does that I really like - he reminds people a tired dog is a happy, calm dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries and limitations.

And his training methods have gotten rid of the more extreme stuff over the years.

In one of his books, he interviews a number of famous trainers, and my takeaway from that was there is NO one right way to train. The person who trains dogs for movies has to use totally different methods than the one doing schutzhund or family pet training. So, he doesn't insist 'it's my way or you're doing it all wrong!'


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## Cyndi21

serene77 said:


> What I am going to say is probably going to be very unpopular but I would NEVER allow a dog that bit me or anyone else with that kind of aggression to remain in my home. Do you have kids? Do kids every visit you? Does anyone elderly ever visit you? You have a responsibility to every person that comes in contact with your dog. Yes, they are family members but they are animals. People come first. If you have the money, have the dog evaluated by a trainer that your vet recommends but if the dog shows any sign of aggression again, that would be it. Yes, it would hurt to put your dog down but it would hurt a whole lot more if he harmed someone, especially a child.


No, there are no children in our home. There have been no children or elderly people visiting us since before covid. Blue was a puppy then and not aggressive. When we invite anyone into our home both dogs are put in the backyard where they are secure. Blue is also wearing a muzzle most of the time except of course when he's eating and when he's sleeping, and he sleeps alone now. When he goes anywhere with us my husband is in control of him. He has a harness on and a muzzle. Plus my husband is a very big and strong man. Blue listens to him.
We are having him evaluated and we are taking him to a trainer as soon as we can get in. Until then we are taking every precaution necessary to keep everyone else safe. 
We strongly believe that he can be helped. He will be away from us for 3-4 weeks getting the help he needs. Then we will be trained on how to properly handle him. My husband is great with him, but obviously I'm doing something wrong. I pray that this works. If not, then yes, we will have to put him down. 
Thanks for your concern.


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## GSDchoice

I hope you're able to get in with a good trainer soon!

Last night I was reading an article about how, due to the flurry of "pandemic pup" adoptions by first-time owners, dog trainers are now FLOODED with lots of dogs with serious behavioral issues. Some of the trainers are booked out to the fall. Many of these dogs did not get out and about to meet people/other dogs, plus their owners are leaving them home alone more now, so it's stressful for everyone. Anyway, hope you're able to get training soon - (just don't be shocked if there is a long wait...)


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## cagal

Separation anxiety will be a large issue when people start going back to work. My reactive puppy at least gets “alone” time just for that reason. That would be a nightmare for us on top of the reactivity. Training is definitely booked out quite far now.


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## WNGD

Everyone who has a COVID puppy should by now be leaving the house for hours at a time to ready the dog for full time vacancy when people return to work full time. I work from home full time and still trained my dogs to be alone for escalating 3-4 hours at a time with the run of the house from5-6-7 months on. 

There's no excuse for separation anxiety issues just blaming COVID any more....


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## Cyndi21

We've talked about that. Unfortunately, you're right. We may have a long wait. For that reason, we're going to start doing some training ourselves. I have a hard time reading Blue's body language. Did you know that if a dog lies on his back, he isn't necessarily asking for a belly rub? He may be anxious and fearful. This was the exact situation just before Blue bit me the last time. 
Thanks for sharing. Hopefully we'll get in sooner than we hope.


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## Roscoe618

Cyndi21 said:


> No, there are no children in our home. There have been no children or elderly people visiting us since before covid. Blue was a puppy then and not aggressive. When we invite anyone into our home both dogs are put in the backyard where they are secure. Blue is also wearing a muzzle most of the time except of course when he's eating and when he's sleeping, and he sleeps alone now. When he goes anywhere with us my husband is in control of him. He has a harness on and a muzzle. Plus my husband is a very big and strong man. Blue listens to him.
> We are having him evaluated and we are taking him to a trainer as soon as we can get in. Until then we are taking every precaution necessary to keep everyone else safe.
> We strongly believe that he can be helped. He will be away from us for 3-4 weeks getting the help he needs. Then we will be trained on how to properly handle him. My husband is great with him, but obviously I'm doing something wrong. I pray that this works. If not, then yes, we will have to put him down.
> Thanks for your concern.


I hate to say this but he is not a 3-4 week dog. He is more like an 8 week dog. And trainer will need 1-2 weeks to establish a relationship with your dog before training and turning this dog around even begins. In fact, a good trainer would not even talk a time frame in my opinion.


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## Sunflowers

Cyndi21 said:


> We've talked about that. Unfortunately, you're right. We may have a long wait. For that reason, we're going to start doing some training ourselves. I have a hard time reading Blue's body language. Did you know that if a dog lies on his back, he isn't necessarily asking for a belly rub? He may be anxious and fearful. This was the exact situation just before Blue bit me the last time.
> Thanks for sharing. Hopefully we'll get in sooner than we hope.


This book should come with all puppies,shelter dogs... veterinarians should sell this at their checkouts. Then, people would have far fewer problems.









Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Brenda Aloff: 9781929242351: Amazon.com: Books


Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog [Brenda Aloff] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog



www.amazon.com


----------



## Sunflowers

These are also very eye-opening.









Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs (Audible Audio Edition): Patricia McConnell PhD, Ellen Archer, Novel Audio: Books


Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs (Audible Audio Edition): Patricia McConnell PhD, Ellen Archer, Novel Audio: Books



www.amazon.com













Amazon.com: On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals (Audible Audio Edition): Turid Rugaas, Perry Simardone, Joel Osteen: Audible Audiobooks


Amazon.com: On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals (Audible Audio Edition): Turid Rugaas, Perry Simardone, Joel Osteen: Audible Audiobooks



www.amazon.com


----------



## selzer

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, that's her! Used to have her book. She used to breed great Danes, so she wasn't exactly a lap dog trainer that didn't know how to train strong dogs.
> 
> There are some things Cesar does that I really like - he reminds people a tired dog is a happy, calm dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries and limitations.
> 
> And his training methods have gotten rid of the more extreme stuff over the years.
> 
> In one of his books, he interviews a number of famous trainers, and my takeaway from that was there is NO one right way to train. The person who trains dogs for movies has to use totally different methods than the one doing schutzhund or family pet training. So, he doesn't insist 'it's my way or you're doing it all wrong!'



I have the book by cesar, Cesar's Way, I have the book by Barbara Woodhouse if it didn't get waterlogged and tossed when my book case was the recipient of roof-water. I read that. I have and read Victoria Stillwell's book. And Ian Whatever-his-name is, Dunbar? The monks of New skete, several of theirs. And more. I have decided that I do everything wrong for all the wrong reasons, and somehow it works for me. 

I don't subscribe to stuff like making a dog wait for food, to teach them self control, or that a tired dog is a good dog. I have a dozen dogs and they do not get walked every week, every month much less every day. In fact, I might get my fat behind out with a dog once a month, if I am doing good, and Covid has been just a good excuse not to sign up for classes. When I DID take them to classes, they got worked, 1 hour per week (in class) for six weeks in a row, and that is 90% better than I do when I haven't paid for a class, so they get a ton out of it. 

On the fourth of July, I took three dogs to my friends house about 2 hours away. I took Columbo who will be 1 in October, Vera who will be 2 in September, and Karma who turned 8 in January. Karma has probably been to classes in her first year. But as she is one of my dams, she is a favorite. In fact, she had her last litter shortly after her eighth birthday, and the folks that came to take a pup, several of them aske me for her. I told my sister that, in another 8 years, her boy will be awesome like her too. 

So it is not impressive that Karma lay down near me where I was seated, outside talking to my friend. What is impressive is that both Columbo (who is not my breeding) and Vera, who is, were also lying quietly near us with her shepherds. I was there about 3 hours and the entire time, all the critters were calm, were playing, were good, were milling around my friend's grand-babies near the pool, and none of them plowed into any of the kids or knocked them into the pool. They were all loose. I didn't have a death grip on any one so they wouldn't eat a baby or a man with a ball cap or an elderly person, or fill in the blank. 

I am not a dog whisperer. I have learned some stuff over the years and I have some really nice dogs. Part of that is how I raise and keep them (I do everything wrong) and part of that is in them. Some folks do have trouble with raising my dogs. Not everyone, just I think people new to the breed have to learn the hard way on their first shepherd. You can't get it out of books or out of videos or out of conversations on line. You have to get it by trial and error with the dog you have. The answer is not to avoid first time owners. Lots of people do, and maybe people who are breeding for super hard dogs, with high drives and energy should avoid newcomers to working dog breeds. But for the vast majority of us (breeders), avoiding first time owners is the lazy option, and may even suggest temperament issues in your lines. We have a breed that is popular and attractive for a lot of reasons, and if decent breeders will not sell to new owners, they will get dogs from crappy breeders, and that is a shame. Our dogs can be a first dog for people. And sometimes mistakes are made and dogs will need to be rehomed or just returned to the breeder. But unless we grew up with the breed, we were all newbies once, and even if we did grow up with the breed, we have all had that first dog that we purchased, and raised and trained ourselves. If we have stuck with this breed, and had more than one, we've probably had easier dogs and tougher dogs. The easy ones don't make us grow. We learn the most from the ones that had us tearing our hair out (Frodo) or crying our eyes out (Arwen) or both.


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## Cyndi21

Sunflowers said:


> This book should come with all puppies,shelter dogs... veterinarians should sell this at their checkouts. Then, people would have far fewer problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog: Brenda Aloff: 9781929242351: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog [Brenda Aloff] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


Thank you!


----------



## Cyndi21

Can someone please direct me as to where I could find information to ask the vet about what tests should be run on Blue. I know the vet should know this but I don't want them to miss anything. I've been searching through this forum and Google and haven't found what I need. I finally ended up on a "ask the vet website" but I don't want to give them my credit card. Any help is appreciated. Thank you.


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## Saphire

__





Difficulties in The Diagnosis of Dominance Aggression in Dogs - WSAVA2002 - VIN







www.vin.com













How Does Cortisol Make My Dog Aggressive?


“Cortisol, a glucocorticoid (steroid hormone), is produced from cholesterol in the two adrenal glands located on top of each kidney. It is normally released in response to events and circumstances such as waking up in the morning, exercising, and acute stress. Cortisol’s far-reaching, systemic...



www.sportdogtrainingcenter.com





This last link may be the most valuable. If you contact Dr. Jean Dodds, she can guide you through testing. Her prices are quite good but you can also do through your vet. If you email her, she will respond personally.









Online Consults | Hemopet


Give your animals the pet care they deserve. Hemopet's testing gives you data to help you understand your pet's dietary needs to improve your pet's overall health.



hemopet.org


----------



## Saphire

selzer said:


> I don't subscribe to stuff like making a dog wait for food, to teach them self control, or that a tired dog is a good dog. I have a dozen dogs and they do not get walked every week, every month much less every day. In fact, I might get my fat behind out with a dog once a month, if I am doing good, and Covid has been just a good excuse not to sign up for classes. When I DID take them to classes, they got worked, 1 hour per week (in class) for six weeks in a row, and that is 90% better than I do when I haven't paid for a class, so they get a ton out of it.


So why have dogs if you’re to lazy to do anything with them? This is a working breed, or at least should be. I can’t imagine owning any dog and only working with them or walking them once a week. What a pathetic life for them.


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## Cyndi21

Saphire said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Difficulties in The Diagnosis of Dominance Aggression in Dogs - WSAVA2002 - VIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Does Cortisol Make My Dog Aggressive?
> 
> 
> “Cortisol, a glucocorticoid (steroid hormone), is produced from cholesterol in the two adrenal glands located on top of each kidney. It is normally released in response to events and circumstances such as waking up in the morning, exercising, and acute stress. Cortisol’s far-reaching, systemic...
> 
> 
> 
> www.sportdogtrainingcenter.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This last link may be the most valuable. If you contact Dr. Jean Dodds, she can guide you through testing. Her prices are quite good but you can also do through your vet. If you email her, she will respond personally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Online Consults | Hemopet
> 
> 
> Give your animals the pet care they deserve. Hemopet's testing gives you data to help you understand your pet's dietary needs to improve your pet's overall health.
> 
> 
> 
> hemopet.org





Saphire said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Difficulties in The Diagnosis of Dominance Aggression in Dogs - WSAVA2002 - VIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Does Cortisol Make My Dog Aggressive?
> 
> 
> “Cortisol, a glucocorticoid (steroid hormone), is produced from cholesterol in the two adrenal glands located on top of each kidney. It is normally released in response to events and circumstances such as waking up in the morning, exercising, and acute stress. Cortisol’s far-reaching, systemic...
> 
> 
> 
> www.sportdogtrainingcenter.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This last link may be the most valuable. If you contact Dr. Jean Dodds, she can guide you through testing. Her prices are quite good but you can also do through your vet. If you email her, she will respond personally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Online Consults | Hemopet
> 
> 
> Give your animals the pet care they deserve. Hemopet's testing gives you data to help you understand your pet's dietary needs to improve your pet's overall health.
> 
> 
> 
> hemopet.org


Thank you! Do I just call the Sport Dog Training Center and ask for Dr. Dodds?


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## Saphire

Cyndi21 said:


> Thank you! Do I just call the Sport Dog Training Center and ask for Dr. Dodds?


No, that’s a different link. The hemopet link is the one you use to contact dr dodds


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## Cyndi21

Saphire said:


> No, that’s a different link. The hemopet link is the one you use to contact dr dodds


👍


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## LuvShepherds

Hemopet does a full thyroid panel that you won’t get anywhere else. I had one run once. Get the blood sample early enough in the day that you can mail it the same day. Mine arrived quickly but it can take a few days. It still works. The blood must be centrifuged. Get a full blood panel if you can. Also, I would test for all parasites, tick borne diseases and heartworm while you are at it and get a full fecal sample done. Also a urinalysis to check for bacteria, kidney stones and blood in the urine. If they can, his skin should be checked for rashes or bacterial infections, as well as his ears. I would also ask them to check for anal fissures or fistulas as those can be painful and aren‘t always obvious.. It’s less expensive if you get it all done at once rather than piecemeal. It may or may not give answer to solve his behavior issues, but it doesn’t hurt to know if you can afford a full work up.

From their site
Thyroid Profile 5™ – The Most Comprehensive Canine Thyroid Test Available on the Market

The Thyroid Antibody Panel, Thyroid Profile 5, includes T4, freeT4, T3, freeT3 and TGAA. Since there is an 8% chance of having a false negative TGAA, Hemolife will perform either the T3AA or T4AA when results warrant it or in cases where T3AA or T4AA were previously done and needed for a follow-up. Each sample includes a personal interpretation from Dr. Dodds or one of our other expert veterinarians plus consultation and follow up questions if desired.

T4:FT4 Ratio (Dogs only)

The patented T4:FT4 Ratio has been added to Hemolife’s portfolio of all “green” technology and breed- and age-specific interpretive analysis, and is available on all of Hemolife’s thyroid profile laboratory results to assist veterinarians in diagnosing thyroid conditions more accurately


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## Cyndi21

LuvShepherds said:


> Hemopet does a full thyroid panel that you won’t get anywhere else. I had one run once. Get the blood sample early enough in the day that you can mail it the same day. Mine arrived quickly but it can take a few days. It still works. The blood must be centrifuged. Get a full blood panel if you can. Also, I would test for all parasites, tick borne diseases and heartworm while you are at it and get a full fecal sample done. Also a urinalysis to check for bacteria, kidney stones and blood in the urine. If they can, his skin should be checked for rashes or bacterial infections, as well as his ears. I would also ask them to check for anal fissures or fistulas as those can be painful and aren‘t always obvious.. It’s less expensive if you get it all done at once rather than piecemeal. It may or may not give answer to solve his behavior issues, but it doesn’t hurt to know if you can afford a full work up.
> 
> From their site
> Thyroid Profile 5™ – The Most Comprehensive Canine Thyroid Test Available on the Market
> 
> The Thyroid Antibody Panel, Thyroid Profile 5, includes T4, freeT4, T3, freeT3 and TGAA. Since there is an 8% chance of having a false negative TGAA, Hemolife will perform either the T3AA or T4AA when results warrant it or in cases where T3AA or T4AA were previously done and needed for a follow-up. Each sample includes a personal interpretation from Dr. Dodds or one of our other expert veterinarians plus consultation and follow up questions if desired.
> 
> T4:FT4 Ratio (Dogs only)
> 
> The patented T4:FT4 Ratio has been added to Hemolife’s portfolio of all “green” technology and breed- and age-specific interpretive analysis, and is available on all of Hemolife’s thyroid profile laboratory results to assist veterinarians in diagnosing thyroid conditions more accurately


Great info. Thank you!


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## Rionel

Just by coincidence, I ran across this Upstate Canine video. I think someone else mentioned these guys the other day, so if you don't have a trainer lined up already, or the one you do doesn't work out, maybe check Tom out.






The dog is a Boerboel with all too common issues, and the couple was being advised to euthanize by a prior trainer.
It's worth a watch.


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## Cyndi21

Rionel said:


> Just by coincidence, I ran across this Upstate Canine video. I think someone else mentioned these guys the other day, so if you don't have a trainer lined up already, or the one you do doesn't work out, maybe check Tom out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dog is a Boerboel with all too common issues, and the couple was being advised to euthanize by a prior trainer.
> It's worth a watch.


I've watched several of his videos. I really like him. He's in the running. Thanks.


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## Reptila9

Cyndi21 said:


> You're absolutely correct on all counts. The aggression didn't start until he was about 1 year old. He just turned 2. He hasn't attacked our redbone in about 6 months. We feed them separately and take them outside separately. Half the time they sleep together during the day.They sleep separately at night. As far as the other dogs at my MIL's house, this was the first time he ever attacked any of them. I'm the only human he's attacked. Fortunately we had the appointment set for his neutering yesterday. Going forward we are taking all necessary precautions. He won't be around any other dogs, except the redbone from now on. The ONLY time he has ever attacked her is food related, and that situation has been fixed. I'm also taking him for aggression training. If that doesn't work, we will seriously have to consider euthanizing him. Thank you again for your advice. It is much appreciated.


I'm sorry to hear that you're going through this. Please, PLEASE reach out to people in your community - professional behaviorist/trainers and worse case, rehoming solutions. I hope there is an agency in your area that would accept the dog as Surrendered to be rehabilitated and rehomed if you are not able to achieve a successful solution with Blue staying in your family. I just hate to see any healthy dog euthanized. There are people out there willing to have a dog that just can't be around other dogs, and willing to work with him over months to rehab.


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## Sabis mom

Reptila9 said:


> I hope there is an agency in your area that would accept the dog as Surrendered to be rehabilitated and rehomed if you are not able to achieve a successful solution with Blue staying in your family. I just hate to see any healthy dog euthanized. There are people out there willing to have a dog that just can't be around other dogs, and willing to work with him over months to rehab.


 Sorry but I need to comment on this. A dog like this takes up a spot. Sometimes for many months. Sometimes for years. Aside from the fact that a dog like this may well regress or get a lot worse in a kennel environment, that is a spot that other companions need and won't get. So by saving one dog you potential allow others to die since the spot is filled for so long. Then there is the problem of very often dogs are on their best behavior in unfamiliar surroundings and only show negative responses when they are comfortable.
This attitude of save them all not only allows dogs to languish in shelters and rescues, it prevents turnover which is essential and it runs the risk of creating a dangerous situation when dogs are placed in homes that cannot handle them. 
Shelters have a finite amount of resources, severe behavior or medical issues chew through those at an alarming rate.


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## Sunflowers

@Reptila9 , not fair to place guilt on OP.
She is doing all she can.
Not all dogs can be saved, no matter how much we wish they could be.


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## David Winners

@Cyndi21 have you found a trainer?


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## Davycc

Some great advice and input above, some of it, for me would be very hard to hear but I know it's correct all the same. Looking back the OP came across, and I can sympathise, as a little defensive but you know she's listening. Whether you realise it or not @Cyndi21 you are learning throughout all this. Keep following the advice. I wish there was a magic wand to wave and make things right. I know how your felling, I've been in a similar situation and it's devastating. Giving the dog up to me seems like it's going to be the way out, but to someone who knows how to deal with this. Then you and your hubby, when ready can start off with a dog that suits you both. It's a hard call I know.


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## Cyndi21

David Winners said:


> @Cyndi21 have you found a trainer?


We have narrowed it down to two. We'll probably go with Pak Masters. We were very impressed with Larry. The decision will be made this week. 
I know it may seem like we're not reacting quickly enough, but this is a difficult decision. It's expensive and we want to make sure we have the right trainer. But I guess in situations like this, you can never truly be sure. Plus, Blue was neutered just 2 weeks ago and had surgery on his elbow. He sees the vet today.
We will never rehome him no matter what. This is our problem to deal with. How could anyone ever do that with a dog that bites? The only exception I guess would be to someone who could handle him and knows what they're getting into.
We would also never give him to a shelter. That would be cruel. He would be miserable. 
Our very last resort would be euthanasia.


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## David Winners

You can not go wrong with Larry. He's a fantastic trainer of dogs and people. I know you don't know me from Adam, but he's in my top three trainers for this kind of dog problem.


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## Davycc

David Winners said:


> .........I know you don't know me from Adam, but he's in my top three trainers ........


Please forgive me as this is not dog related and will also mean absolutely nothing to most North Americans but that line reminded me of a quote used by a famous football (soccer) coach (BTW soccer is the wrong name, it IS football )

When asked if he thought he was a good manager/coach José Mourinho replied "I wouldn't say I'm the best manager in the business, but I'm in the top one."

Sorry, totally unrelated.


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## Muskeg

Sounds like you're on the right track finding a trainer. 

Please be extremely careful of any board and train person. I'd ask to personally tour their entire facility and see where the dogs are kept and see dogs in their care.

It is all too common for the dog to be crated 22-23 hours a day, and worked by force to "look right" but not actually get trained. Some are outright abusive, others neglectful. It happens all the time even with "internet celebrity" trainers. I just heard of a trainer who was stacking dogs in crates in their own filth. 

There are good board and trains but BUYER BEWARE!! Please. Dogs like this can end up in far worse shape than they were. Be extremely selective.


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## David Winners

Muskeg said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track finding a trainer.
> 
> Please be extremely careful of any board and train person. I'd ask to personally tour their entire facility and see where the dogs are kept and see dogs in their care.
> 
> It is all too common for the dog to be crated 22-23 hours a day, and worked by force to "look right" but not actually get trained. Some are outright abusive, others neglectful. It happens all the time even with "internet celebrity" trainers. I just heard of a trainer who was stacking dogs in crates in their own filth.
> 
> There are good board and trains but BUYER BEWARE!! Please. Dogs like this can end up in far worse shape than they were. Be extremely selective.


You can check out Larry and his program on YouTube.


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## selzer

Muskeg said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track finding a trainer.
> 
> Please be extremely careful of any board and train person. I'd ask to personally tour their entire facility and see where the dogs are kept and see dogs in their care.
> 
> It is all too common for the dog to be crated 22-23 hours a day, and worked by force to "look right" but not actually get trained. Some are outright abusive, others neglectful. It happens all the time even with "internet celebrity" trainers. I just heard of a trainer who was stacking dogs in crates in their own filth.
> 
> There are good board and trains but BUYER BEWARE!! Please. Dogs like this can end up in far worse shape than they were. Be extremely selective.


Through the narrative, it sounds like the OP is likely to err on the side of being too careful about where they send their dog and what is done with their dog. It sounds like they have checked this trainer out and are taking a tremendous leap to give their dog the best shot at living out his natural lifespan. 

I think anyone might overlook a lot when they are desperate for anything that will help, when alternatives are running out. But I actually have hope for this dog at this point. Neutering without upping the training probably won't get you there. But it sounds like there is a plan here that might just work.


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## Cyndi21

Muskeg said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track finding a trainer.
> 
> Please be extremely careful of any board and train person. I'd ask to personally tour their entire facility and see where the dogs are kept and see dogs in their care.
> 
> It is all too common for the dog to be crated 22-23 hours a day, and worked by force to "look right" but not actually get trained. Some are outright abusive, others neglectful. It happens all the time even with "internet celebrity" trainers. I just heard of a trainer who was stacking dogs in crates in their own filth.
> 
> There are good board and trains but BUYER BEWARE!! Please. Dogs like this can end up in far worse shape than they were. Be extremely selective.


Quoted from PakMasters website:
"I will only be accepting serious, committed owners that demand the best for their four legged family member. During your dog’s stay he or she will live as part of our family, not in a loud stressful boarding facility. He or she will be living at our home interacting with my family and my dogs on a daily basis. Your dog will be treated as if it were my own, and as most know that’s very good."

We will ask to see the facilities if we do go with board and train. Thank you.


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## Cyndi21




----------



## K9WolfAlpha

selzer said:


> When you have a dog that you know WILL bite, you don't use physical means to prove that you are the one on top. NILIF is a good starting part. I have never used it completely, but I think parts of it are just natural. That stuff with Cesar, sigh, the dog would bite, and they knew that, and doing a Cesar-crap-training, yeah it can work IF and only if you are already a seasoned dog trainer. Half the crap that guy does, he doesn't even know why or what he is doing until after he did it, then he tells you why he did it after the fact, while he is figuring out what just happened. Because once you are experienced, stuff becomes second nature.


*AGAIN:* the rescue wanted me to do this work on the dog. After the bite I told them to put him down but what I didn't know was the owner wanted the dog back and only used the rescue as a dog sitter. So he went back to owner who fed him in his crate. NILIF answer to all? That is only good for SOME training not every dog responds as you wish. Sometimes just removing their balls helps.
I have dealt with so many various aggressive dogs with different aggressions or issues being an ACO you will never understand dealing with them *all* but usually the owners are to be feared more than the dog because they tend to JUSTIFY the behaviors-I hear tones of that here from people who think they're really smart about training-CANNOT TRAIN ALL DOGS some need to be PTS. One dog had a brain tumor (found out later) and was attacking other dogs and people in the area and I had to go get him. He broke thru his crate, thru a window and proceeded to look for anything to kill- this was not typical of him. He scared the crap out of me. Lab, was put to sleep when not recognizing his owners who I called ASAP to catch him because he stalked me to the ACO truck like a lion would.

I get really ticked trainers think they know everything. While you were busy spending money on your one or two dogs and training them at a club, then showing them, I saved the lives of at least 200 dogs (photos included), fostered pups for rescues, volunteered at shelters and owned 7 shepherds (4 rescues). So you have your little oasis in the sunshine while others are busy taking care of business. All my dogs were OB trained minimum and some were so smart they learned on their own. Anyone wants to come down on me- I'll send you some pics of the dogs I saved.


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## dogma13

@K9WolfAlpha please stick to the topic - help and support for the OP.
Start your own thread to share your training experience.


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## K9WolfAlpha

dogma13 said:


> @K9WolfAlpha please stick to the topic - help and support for the OP.
> Start your own thread to share your training experience.


As if I didn't until people came down on me. I'm not playing dead for you.


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## dogma13

Sorry for the minor derailment. @Cyndi21 hoping things will work out for the best for your family. We'll look forward to updates.


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## Cyndi21

dogma13 said:


> Sorry for the minor derailment. @Cyndi21 hoping things will work out for the best for your family. We'll look forward to updates.


No worries. Stuff happens.


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## Cyndi21

Sorta kinda back to square one. Hubby does not want to board and train and I kind of don't blame him. I'm sort of iffy about it too. I don't want him to be away for so long and I want to play a big part in his training. So he's going to contact Larry Krohn and see if there's anyone closer to us that we can we can take him to.


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## selzer

It's been 2 weeks since the neuter, and it takes four weeks minimum to get the full benefit of the change in hormones, but have you seen any difference in him yet. Or are the episodes so few and unpredictable that you really can't tell? Serious aggression is one of the few reasons that I think board and train might make sense, because it takes half the equation out of the picture, and works with the other half to get that where we want it, then we bring in the other half of the equation and get them on board. When you use a trainer that you go to, and train your own dog, the dog often acts totally different in the training environment which leaves you trying to explain what you are seeing the majority of the time, and behaviors that you really need immediate help with, will probably only happen when your dog is at home and relaxed. 

On the other hand, most rescue dogs need a good month in the new home to start feeling relaxed enough to display the behaviors that got them the boot in the first place. So, at a board and train, it may be that with the different leadership style and experience with aggressive dogs, the dog may be "fixed" by the time he is comfortable enough to start acting out, I mean, he may already get it, that there are consequences when he misbehaves, and he does not display the aggression because he knows that it won't get him what he wants. But at the end of 6 or 8 weeks, whatever the timeframe, maybe he has gotten a reset, and if you and your husband then follow through with whatever they suggest about management, leadership, and continued training, I think it is still a good option for you.


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## Rionel

I'm beginning to this this post was planted and isn't real. That would be better than a dog owner who is lackadaisical about the dog welfare and human safety. Hope I am wrong. But, fake posts get digested by the public and add unnecessary scrutiny to this breed. We should all want to be advocates for the breed, and for human safety.


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## wolfy dog

I had a hunch from the beginning that this would end in nothing being done


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## Sitz&Platz

I've been following this thread since it was first posted, and there has been a lot of good advice on here, as always. Looking at it from my own perspective as a dog owner who has never even had one of my dogs growl at me, I would not feel safe around a dog that attacked me, bit me, whatever you like to call it, and there would be a real urgency for me to resolve this issue as soon as possible before any further incidents occur.


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## LuvShepherds

Rionel said:


> I'm beginning to this this post was planted and isn't real. That would be better than a dog owner who is lackadaisical about the dog welfare and human safety. Hope I am wrong. But, fakes posts get digested by the public and add unnecessary scrutiny to this breed. We should all want to be advocates for the breed, and for human safety.


Even if that is true it may help the next person looking for advice who reads it.


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## Rionel

LuvShepherds said:


> Even if that is true it may help the next person looking for advice who reads it.


 True.


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## LuvShepherds

Experienced dog owners have trouble understanding how new GSD owners can get themselves into inexplicable messes. It happens.


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## Cyndi21

Okay first of all to all of you this is not planted and this is not fake. I guess I don't quite understand why anyone on here would think that this is fake. Maybe I'm just not sharing enough or not being real enough, but here's the story...
My husband and I really want to get help for our dog. We don't understand what happened or why he's only biting me and no one else. I think that there is something very flawed between Blue and I, obviously. So... neither one of us is exactly sure what to do. I thought I had talked him into board and train. I keep trying to get my husband to call somebody and just talk to them. I tell him you don't have to make a commitment, but at least listen to them. This is the entire reason why I got on this discussion board because I knew that my husband would try to take control of the situation and he would try to figure out what was the best route for our dog without really knowing what to do. So I took it upon myself to join this forum. And every now and then I share information with him that I think is relevant and will get him to think and act.
Well, today I called Pak Masters and left a message on their voicemail. I also sent them an e-mail a week and a half ago and haven't heard anything back so unless somebody contacts me, I don't know what to do. But I have waited long enough for my husband to make the phone calls and make the decisions and put this plan in action. I'm just going to do it myself from now on. 
I'm not trying to get anybody here involved or give me advice about our personal life. My husband is who he is, he is very headstrong, very determined, extremely intelligent, but he's also incredibly hard-headed and stubborn. He loves me and is very concerned about mine and Blue's relationship. When he is not home, Blue is either muzzled or he's locked in his crate, or he's outside. He is never around me unless I'm safe but that is not how I want to live. I keep having nightmares and I want to get this taken care of ASAP. 
Thank you for all your support and concern and understanding. I really do appreciate it. And honestly, I really need it now.


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## David Winners

Call me. I'll PM you my number.


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## Cyndi21

selzer said:


> It's been 2 weeks since the neuter, and it takes four weeks minimum to get the full benefit of the change in hormones, but have you seen any difference in him yet. Or are the episodes so few and unpredictable that you really can't tell? Serious aggression is one of the few reasons that I think board and train might make sense, because it takes half the equation out of the picture, and works with the other half to get that where we want it, then we bring in the other half of the equation and get them on board. When you use a trainer that you go to, and train your own dog, the dog often acts totally different in the training environment which leaves you trying to explain what you are seeing the majority of the time, and behaviors that you really need immediate help with, will probably only happen when your dog is at home and relaxed.
> 
> On the other hand, most rescue dogs need a good month in the new home to start feeling relaxed enough to display the behaviors that got them the boot in the first place. So, at a board and train, it may be that with the different leadership style and experience with aggressive dogs, the dog may be "fixed" by the time he is comfortable enough to start acting out, I mean, he may already get it, that there are consequences when he misbehaves, and he does not display the aggression because he knows that it won't get him what he wants. But at the end of 6 or 8 weeks, whatever the timeframe, maybe he has gotten a reset, and if you and your husband then follow through with whatever they suggest about management, leadership, and continued training, I think it is still a good option for you.


No I have not seen a change at all in Blue. He's pretty much the same. And yes, the episodes are unpredictable.
He's not a rescue dog.
I agree with you on the "reset", but an concerned about him being away for so long. THAT is why we need to speak to Larry Krohn or someone like him and get more information on what we need to do.


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## David Winners

Cyndi21 said:


> No I have not seen a change at all in Blue. He's pretty much the same. And yes, the episodes are unpredictable.
> He's not a rescue dog.
> I agree with you on the "reset", but an concerned about him being away for so long. THAT is why we need to speak to Larry Krohn or someone like him and get more information on what we need to do.


I'm not going to say that I'm like Larry, but I board and train dogs in the same situations. 

There are a lot of reasons to not board and train your dog. There are a lot of trainers that I wouldn't trust my dog with. 

If I knew someone in your area that I trusted, I would refer you to them immediately.

This is a touchy situation because of you, not the dog. The relationship is the issue and that is a difficult thing to address. A successful trainer will have to build habits into the dog and then train you how to live with that dog. The reason I recommended the trainers I did is because they are good at both those things. 

In my opinion, you can't go on for 12 years like you are living, and you can't move forward with the knowledge you have. You need help and you need help that will actually help. It's a simple thing to fix the situation but it isn't easy.


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## Sabis mom

Cyndi21 said:


> I'm not trying to get anybody here involved or give me advice about our personal life. My husband is who he is, he is very headstrong, very determined, extremely intelligent, but he's also incredibly hard-headed and stubborn. He loves me and is very concerned about mine and Blue's relationship. When he is not home, Blue is either muzzled or he's locked in his crate, or he's outside. He is never around me unless I'm safe but that is not how I want to live. I keep having nightmares and I want to get this taken care of ASAP.


Sounds like someone I know. I understand trust me. Your husband is certainly not the only stubborn man around.

In any given week we get a fake on here that posts something guaranteed to get a rise out of most of us. Don't take it personally and don't underestimate how much we do care about the outcome. 
Take David up on his offer. Call him. There are few people on this planet I would trust with my dog, (and my husband isn't one of them) but I trust David and his judgement.


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## selzer

Cyndi21 said:


> No I have not seen a change at all in Blue. He's pretty much the same. And yes, the episodes are unpredictable.
> He's not a rescue dog.
> I agree with you on the "reset", but an concerned about him being away for so long. THAT is why we need to speak to Larry Krohn or someone like him and get more information on what we need to do.


I know your dog is not a rescue. But he doesn't, nor do rescue dogs. When he leaves your home for board and train, he will in fact, probably display the same kinds of behaviors that rescue or rehomed dogs display. It is a shock to their system and it will take some time for him to get comfortable with the people that will be working with him, just as a rescued or rehomed dog has to take some time to get used to their new owners. It wasn't said as a negative thing. I was maybe thinking out loud about how your dog may respond to training. 

I think Dave has worked with military working dogs, and aggressive dogs, you might want to jump on his offer because he can probably give you more real help than the majority of the folks here. That isn't a dig on the people on the board, either. There are a few breeders on here that have significantly more dogs than what is ordinary, but it is possible that, like me, they haven't had serious aggressive issues in their lines. We may have a ton of experience raising puppies, but little experience dealing with aggression. And the rest of the folks, unless they are largely into rescuing, have, for the most part, had 1-4 dogs at a time, and over the course of 10-12 years, that leaves just a handful of dogs, most of which probably haven't been aggressive. And the chances of one of them having an aggressive dog that is the same type of aggression that you have with yours is slim. And of course, what worked for them and their dog, might not work for you and yours. So someone with a lot of experience with strong dogs and aggression, is what you need.


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## Cyndi21

selzer said:


> I know your dog is not a rescue. But he doesn't, nor do rescue dogs. When he leaves your home for board and train, he will in fact, probably display the same kinds of behaviors that rescue or rehomed dogs display. It is a shock to their system and it will take some time for him to get comfortable with the people that will be working with him, just as a rescued or rehomed dog has to take some time to get used to their new owners. It wasn't said as a negative thing. I was maybe thinking out loud about how your dog may respond to training.
> 
> I think Dave has worked with military working dogs, and aggressive dogs, you might want to jump on his offer because he can probably give you more real help than the majority of the folks here. That isn't a dig on the people on the board, either. There are a few breeders on here that have significantly more dogs than what is ordinary, but it is possible that, like me, they haven't had serious aggressive issues in their lines. We may have a ton of experience raising puppies, but little experience dealing with aggression. And the rest of the folks, unless they are largely into rescuing, have, for the most part, had 1-4 dogs at a time, and over the course of 10-12 years, that leaves just a handful of dogs, most of which probably haven't been aggressive. And the chances of one of them having an aggressive dog that is the same type of aggression that you have with yours is slim. And of course, what worked for them and their dog, might not work for you and yours. So someone with a lot of experience with strong dogs and aggression, is what you need.


Thank you for taking the time to explain what you meant. My husband and I have never dealt with an aggressive dog, especially one that bites. We both want to make sure he gets the right trainer the first time. We figure we have one chance at getting this right. I will speak with Dave. I really feel he can help us.


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## David Winners

I really wish I was in a place to work with you guys. I'm just really specific about bringing a board and train into my home and now it's not a good time. We are in the middle of selling our house. 

If I had a dog here that was beyond my abilities, I would go to Larry. He's a more experienced trainer than me and he is better with people than I am. 

I'd be happy to take a phone call to talk to you guys about things. It would be best if you were both there for the call.


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## Reptila9

Sabis mom said:


> Sorry but I need to comment on this. A dog like this takes up a spot. Sometimes for many months. Sometimes for years. Aside from the fact that a dog like this may well regress or get a lot worse in a kennel environment, that is a spot that other companions need and won't get. So by saving one dog you potential allow others to die since the spot is filled for so long. Then there is the problem of very often dogs are on their best behavior in unfamiliar surroundings and only show negative responses when they are comfortable.
> This attitude of save them all not only allows dogs to languish in shelters and rescues, it prevents turnover which is essential and it runs the risk of creating a dangerous situation when dogs are placed in homes that cannot handle them.
> Shelters have a finite amount of resources, severe behavior or medical issues chew through those at an alarming rate.


Interesting. I hear what you are saying, and I will use your input as a jumping off point for me to do additional research. If I raised a dog from puppyhood and my training mistakes led the dog to euthanization, I would feel responsible for murdering the animal. I'm talking about me personally, not telling others how to feel. Therefore, I would do everything I could to rehab and rehome the dog -- FB posts, contacting organizations, talking to friends and family, etc. There's always a chance that the owner can personally find a new home for the dog. Like I said, a home without other dogs and with an experienced owner for example. When I made the first comment, I meant identifying a specific new home for the dog to move to; not leaving him in a kennel to maybe one day find a home or be put down. Your comment inspired me to look into my local organizations, check stats etc. to see the likelihood of rehoming for a dog like this through an organization.


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## Reptila9

Sunflowers said:


> @Reptila9 , not fair to place guilt on OP.
> She is doing all she can.
> Not all dogs can be saved, no matter how much we wish they could be.


As a dog's owner, we are the people responsible for raising them. How can we pass the buck if it was our training that led to behavioral issues? If my training shortcomings led to a dog being euthanized, I would feel responsible for murdering the animal. Intent vs. Impact. I realize not everyone sees it the same way.


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## Sabis mom

Reptila9 said:


> Interesting. I hear what you are saying, and I will use your input as a jumping off point for me to do additional research. If I raised a dog from puppyhood and my training mistakes led the dog to euthanization, I would feel responsible for murdering the animal. I'm talking about me personally, not telling others how to feel. Therefore, I would do everything I could to rehab and rehome the dog -- FB posts, contacting organizations, talking to friends and family, etc. There's always a chance that the owner can personally find a new home for the dog. Like I said, a home without other dogs and with an experienced owner for example. When I made the first comment, I meant identifying a specific new home for the dog to move to; not leaving him in a kennel to maybe one day find a home or be put down. Your comment inspired me to look into my local organizations, check stats etc. to see the likelihood of rehoming for a dog like this through an organization.


I do not want to derail this thread. But cases like this are far more likely to have a genetic component then be purely a result of training mistakes. And you cannot fix genetics! You can train and manage but you will never alter what a dog is genetically.
The other issue is that dogs with poor temperaments/ poor behavior are far more likely to end up in terrible places. There are many things worse then death. The people who can handle aggressive dogs properly don't want them. I currently share my world with a genetically fearful and fear aggressive dog. I love her to bits. I have spent YEARS training her and learning how to properly manage her. If I die tomorrow she will be destroyed. It is in my will, my family and friends are aware. It prevents her hurting anyone or ending up being hurt herself. 
A dog with a solid temperament is highly unlikely to attack it's own family regardless of any lack of or improper training. A dog with a good temperament does not need excessive training or management. The OP's dog is a result of less then stellar breeding I would guess. But they love him and I respect the desire to try and help. Good results are going to hinge on their ability to learn management in conjunction with proper training.


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## Pawsed

I keep thinking about this dog being blue. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but it seems that breeders who breed for odd colors may not be that focused on other important factors, like temperament. If the aim is to produce certain colors, other aspects of the dogs may be sacrificed.

I wonder if other blue dogs have temperament issues. Could it be related to the color?

Or am I just spitting in the wind here?


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I do not want to derail this thread. But cases like this are far more likely to have a genetic component then be purely a result of training mistakes. And you cannot fix genetics! You can train and manage but you will never alter what a dog is genetically.
> The other issue is that dogs with poor temperaments/ poor behavior are far more likely to end up in terrible places. There are many things worse then death. The people who can handle aggressive dogs properly don't want them. I currently share my world with a genetically fearful and fear aggressive dog. I love her to bits. I have spent YEARS training her and learning how to properly manage her. If I die tomorrow she will be destroyed. It is in my will, my family and friends are aware. It prevents her hurting anyone or ending up being hurt herself.
> A dog with a solid temperament is highly unlikely to attack it's own family regardless of any lack of or improper training. A dog with a good temperament does not need excessive training or management. The OP's dog is a result of less then stellar breeding I would guess. But they love him and I respect the desire to try and help. Good results are going to hinge on their ability to learn management in conjunction with proper training.


While it is true there is always a genetic component, these issues can come from the right genetics in the wrong hands. Bear, I feel less than 0 chance he will ever come after me. I know for a fact that he will respond to other people with aggression if he feels he’s being pushed to do something he doesn’t want to do, perceives a challenge or threat. Again with Cion, I have no concern about him coming after me. He plays rough and if respond with trying to fight, then he responds with more fight. Wrong person and they could go from playing to being mauled. Are genetics a factor? Absolutely. I just think that comes up to often to mask bad training or handling.


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## Sabis mom

Pawsed said:


> I keep thinking about this dog being blue. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but it seems that breeders who breed for odd colors may not be that focused on other important factors, like temperament. If the aim is to produce certain colors, other aspects of the dogs may be sacrificed.
> 
> I wonder if other blue dogs have temperament issues. Could it be related to the color?
> 
> Or am I just spitting in the wind here?


All I know is this dog has blue eyes and that is unlikely to occur from a good breeder. Brown eyes and brown eyes cannot produce blue eyes. When breeders breed for any specific trait other traits are sacrificed. There is no may involved. You breed your best dog to it's best match if you are breeding to preserve/better the breed.


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## wolfy dog

If I remember correctly there is a genetic component in blue Pits. Maybe because they are overbred for their popularity.


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## Sunsilver

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that this dog IS a blue shepherd. They can pop up unexpectedly in litters of reputable breeders, but most are bred for deliberately so they can be sold as 'rare' colours. I do know of a litter that unexpectedly had 2 blue pups, and they were in such high demand from unscrupulous breeders that the breeder had to make sure they were both neutered before going to new homes!


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> While it is true there is always a genetic component, these issues can come from the right genetics in the wrong hands. Bear, I feel less than 0 chance he will ever come after me. I know for a fact that he will respond to other people with aggression if he feels he’s being pushed to do something he doesn’t want to do, perceives a challenge or threat. Again with Cion, I have no concern about him coming after me. He plays rough and if respond with trying to fight, then he responds with more fight. Wrong person and they could go from playing to being mauled. Are genetics a factor? Absolutely. I just think that comes up to often to mask bad training or handling.


I agree with part of what you are saying but YOUR dogs should respond differently to pressure from YOU. Yes in the wrong hands the right dog could be problematic but it should take a huge leap for a stable dog to maul someone that has raised it.
Shadow will bite me under enough pressure, but maul? No. 
I watched Bud, who was decent breeding with a bit much aggression, try to maul a trainer. With me he would bite, threaten, fight but stopped short of anything close to a prolonged attack or mauling.
A well bred dog may devolve to a bit of a nightmare to live with about food, toys, privileges and I could see a threat to others but I simply cannot imagine a well bred dog posing a threat to it's own people. A stable temperament should prevent it.
I am a horrible trainer and I seldom proceed beyond house rules and beyond one foster that was nuts anyway no attacks just several bites.


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I agree with part of what you are saying but YOUR dogs should respond differently to pressure from YOU. Yes in the wrong hands the right dog could be problematic but it should take a huge leap for a stable dog to maul someone that has raised it.
> Shadow will bite me under enough pressure, but maul? No.
> I watched Bud, who was decent breeding with a bit much aggression, try to maul a trainer. With me he would bite, threaten, fight but stopped short of anything close to a prolonged attack or mauling.
> A well bred dog may devolve to a bit of a nightmare to live with about food, toys, privileges and I could see a threat to others but I simply cannot imagine a well bred dog posing a threat to it's own people. A stable temperament should prevent it.
> I am a horrible trainer and I seldom proceed beyond house rules and beyond one foster that was nuts anyway no attacks just several bites.


There are plenty of well bred dogs I can think of that could have been terrible in the wrong hands. I don’t think it’s a simple as saying well bred and stable. I believe there are plenty of great dogs that don’t fit in homes as first dogs.


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> There are plenty of well bred dogs I can think of that could have been terrible in the wrong hands. I don’t think it’s a simple as saying well bred and stable. I believe there are plenty of great dogs that don’t fit in homes as first dogs.


Fair enough. You would know better then I would.


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## wolfy dog

Bearshandler said:


> There are plenty of well bred dogs I can think of that could have been terrible in the wrong hands. I don’t think it’s a simple as saying well bred and stable. I believe there are plenty of great dogs that don’t fit in homes as first dogs.


I think that's very true. One of Deja's male litter mates ended up in the "positive only" hands and is now dog aggressive and he also acted aggressive to me when I invited him to approach me. He was used as a demo in a pet dog class prior to this. He was neutered but it didn't help the issue.


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## GSD07

It’s really hard to say what is resurfacing when a dog is maturing, genetics or holes in training/relationship? Well bred working dogs can be a nightmare when young...

I think there is no crime in reaching out to rescue and discuss if a dog can be rehomed. They may have very experienced people volunteering there. Here is a dog surrendered to rescue because he nipped a child. It looks like the rescue thinks he is a good dog despite nipping a family member. Meet Bentley 4277 - an adoptable pet Dog


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## WNGD

Bearshandler said:


> Are genetics a factor? Absolutely. I just think that comes up to often to mask bad training or handling.


Far too much easy and self diagnosis for fear/aggression, dog aggression, separation anxiety, anxiety barking, jumping, biting, resource guarding/toy/food guarding, bed/couch/crate/people guarding disguising/excusing poor training and handling. jmo

These dogs aren't for everyone, too **** popular for their own good.


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## wolfy dog

Any updates on this dog?


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## Cyndi21

Good morning. Blue is doing great. He's mellowed out considerably since getting fixed. 
The best part is that he and I have a trusting, loving relationship now. I have learned to be much more patient with him. There has been no aggression in over 6 weeks. 
I realize that I can never completely trust him again, which sucks. But I just take it day by day.
My hubby decided to work from home so I would rarely be alone with Blue.
Things are going very well. Thank you for asking.


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## tim_s_adams

That's really good news! I hope it never happens again.


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## wolfy dog

Wow, that's good news.


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## Sunsilver

Very happy to hear this!!


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## Arrow-the-GSD

I had issues at adolescence with my dogs, and have been snapped at but I corrected them immediately, and generally they never did it again. It sounds more like you are not in a “leader” position with your dog, which with the tougher breeds I believe their owner needs to be. Not harsh to the dog, but being in charge and more the line of thinking I Will Not Allow You to do such and such. My mother did not do that with her dog and it still bites her, but once she started taking the reins more it got better. But hers is small and not a large dog that could kill you if it wanted to. I tend to approach my pup like a horse with being in charge and well trained. You wouldn’t let a horse charge you and attack you, you would correct it by spinning them quickly in a circle if they had halter and lead on, which I’ve had to do. When my dog got excited and jumped all over me clawing I held the leash up at the top of the neck and got her off and away from me, then drilled her in commands. When one growled when I went to sit on the couch I grabbed her collar and guided her off the couch (don’t do that with an aggressive dog though, it was just her testing the waters) then did not allow her back on the couch or in my bed for a day or two to reset her. Had to repeat once in a while but she got it very quickly. She had a rock solid down and recall bc of the training too, and she was happy doing it. She didn’t want to be in charge, but if I didn’t step up she was gonna take over and treat me like a door mat.


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## Sunsilver

Arrow, after 15 pages of posts, the OP is well aware of this, and it looks like she's done what she needs to do.
BOL with your living situation... 😥 Wouldn't wish that on ANYONE!


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## Rosanda

Arrow-the-GSD said:


> I had issues at adolescence with my dogs, and have been snapped at but I corrected them immediately, and generally they never did it again. It sounds more like you are not in a “leader” position with your dog, which with the tougher breeds I believe their owner needs to be. Not harsh to the dog, but being in charge and more the line of thinking I Will Not Allow You to do such and such. My mother did not do that with her dog and it still bites her, but once she started taking the reins more it got better. But hers is small and not a large dog that could kill you if it wanted to. I tend to approach my pup like a horse with being in charge and well trained. You wouldn’t let a horse charge you and attack you, you would correct it by spinning them quickly in a circle if they had halter and lead on, which I’ve had to do. When my dog got excited and jumped all over me clawing I held the leash up at the top of the neck and got her off and away from me, then drilled her in commands. When one growled when I went to sit on the couch I grabbed her collar and guided her off the couch (don’t do that with an aggressive dog though, it was just her testing the waters) then did not allow her back on the couch or in my bed for a day or two to reset her. Had to repeat once in a while but she got it very quickly. She had a rock solid down and recall bc of the training too, and she was happy doing it. She didn’t want to be in charge, but if I didn’t step up she was gonna take over and treat me like a door mat.


Agree. I've had people ask whether or not letting the dog mouth you is okay. I always tell them no because what I can handle with my dogs (and they do not question my authority; I have smacked Shylah maybe once in her life -9 months now- and regretted it. The biggest thing for her is being told "no" which I have drilled since she was tiny) is not what they can. Usually, the only time I have actually gotten physical (smacked) with Twilight was for attacking Shylah one night. Other than that, grabbing the collar, looking them in the eyes, telling them "no" and sending them away (or making them stay in one spot for a while) are all very effective. I can play rough with my dogs, but they know that I'm in charge no matter. For most of our dogs, my word is the ultimate authority.


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## Arrow-the-GSD

Rosanda said:


> Agree. I've had people ask whether or not letting the dog mouth you is okay. I always tell them no because what I can handle with my dogs (and they do not question my authority; I have smacked Shylah maybe once in her life -9 months now- and regretted it. The biggest thing for her is being told "no" which I have drilled since she was tiny) is not what they can. Usually, the only time I have actually gotten physical (smacked) with Twilight was for attacking Shylah one night. Other than that, grabbing the collar, looking them in the eyes, telling them "no" and sending them away (or making them stay in one spot for a while) are all very effective. I can play rough with my dogs, but they know that I'm in charge no matter. For most of our dogs, my word is the ultimate authority.


Exactly. That’s what my Aussie was like, and Arrow is heading down the road. I’m not against a tap on the rump when they are just being a brat, not like a hit, more a Hello Pay Attention tap. I know most people are positive reinforcement only and probably think I’m “abusive” but with now have three high energy dogs, and two working line large dogs in my experience complete positive reinforcement just doesn’t work. Maybe on a different dog with a different temperament, but mine push the limit too much and when I tried positive only they treated me like a door mat. I think they need to be rewarded, but being told No firmly is important too. Ignoring the behavior and not correcting just made it worse, and Cookies For Everything just made them spoiled and unwilling to do anything unless I had a treat.


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## Fodder

@Cyndi21 Happy to hear such a great update! I’m going to close the thread for now as it’s starting to head in other directions. Feel free to PM a Mod if you’d like it reopened, or link to it if you start a new thread in the future and would like readers to have the full back story.
Best of luck!


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