# Problems in the German Shepherd Dog



## webdome

Today, to my attention came this article. I would agree to the most questions raised by this publication. I also tend to agree, that most of the nowadays problems are direct result of over breeding and breeding for companionship only. Therefore, I would include the article here:
Written By Amnon Ben Izhak




> If we look at a short history of this breed, we will find that the German shepherd dog of today is completely different from the German shepherd dog as visualized by the founder of the breed, Captain Max von Stephanitz. This dog is slowly losing its place as the number one service dog in the world, that at the same time is a stable and reliable dog.
> 
> Many dogs of this breed suffer from a large number of health problems, such as orthopedic problems, skin problems and more. In addition, dogs of this breed suffer from temperament problems, for instance nervousness, fearfulness and lack of mental stability, and many of them can not function as true working dogs.
> 
> A healthy and intelligent German shepherd, possessing the correct orthopedic build and temperament characteristics established by the breed founder, will disappear in the coming years as if it never existed. In other words, if we do not take dramatic and immediate action to “rescue” this breed, the future generations will only be able to imagine how the German shepherd functioned and served man in a wide variety of tasks.
> 
> The fate of the breed will be as the fate of many other breeds that were distorted by the FCI standards and fashions of dog showing, as for example the English bulldog, which has changed from a medium sized dog, able to run and jump, to a distorted dog that is barely able to move and for the most part suffers from temperament and health problems.
> 
> Or the example of the Saint Bernard of today, which can barely “save” itself. In this breed, imprisoned in giant and heavy proportions, no selection for character as related to the purpose of the breed as a rescue dog is carried out, and as a result, it is rare to find a St. Bernard that is capable of doing rescue work.
> 
> If you visit the National Museum of Switzerland located inBern and look at the preserved body of “Bari” the legendary St. Bernard that saved many lives you will find a substantial difference between his construction and the construction of the St. Bernard according to the FCI standard and similar.
> 
> How many hunting dogs do you know that can really hunt? Many of you have owned dogs of various breeds, for example, the Dogue de Bordeaux, Bull Mastiff, and others and have found that there is no relationship between the description of the dog, its purpose and character as described in the literature on the breed, and the creature that lives in your home. Have you not asked yourselves why it is so difficult to find dogs that faithfully represent their breeds from the standpoint of character and function?
> 
> The source of the problem is in the ourdays cynology fashion that focuse on show dogs and the obsession surrounding them represented by organizations like FCI ,AKC and similar organizations that endorse and encourage the following subjects: limiting of the genetic base, lack of refreshment of the breeds, incorrect selection, and the fashion of dog shows. In addition there is breeding with the sole goal of profit, and so on. There are breeding coordinators and people in high level positions in organizations and foundations, and even those holding positions in professional organizations (people without any true understanding of genetics, the characteristics of temperament, and the method of correct selection) that interpret incorrectly the breed standard and even serve as judges and advisors on breeding, raising and training dogs. Even worse, these people together give legitimacy to a theory that to my mind is wrong in its foundation.
> 
> Check how many dogs bearing the titles National/International champion faithfully represent their breed (character, health, and healthy conformation)? I am sure that the results will amaze you. Various clubs functioning according to the FCI standards are proud of their selection for character for example, the ZTP, Koerung, Israel MHG (examination for suitability for breeding), and so on, but any true expert in behavior will ridicule them after finding out how the character is really tested in these examinations.
> 
> In the last hundred years, characteristics of meny breeds have been completely extinguished. The loss of these characteristics and of the purpose of so many breeds, the failure to preserve the functionality of the original breeds for the coming generations, is a highly irresponsible, annoying and sad deed. True dog lovers must do everything necessary to preserve the purpose of the dog. We must not forget that the dog has always been our most true and faithful friend, and that which built the connection between the dog and man throughout history were the legendary temperament characteristics of this wonderful animal. In this article I will not deal with other breeds, only the German shepherd, which I have been raising, training, and researching for the last 15 years and 30 years of experience in training, testing, and seclections of working dogs.
> 
> The present FCI standard describes the German shepherd as a trotting dog with the emphasis in breeding for that factor. This is a major change from the original goal that described the German shepherd as first and foremost a working dog. In my opinion, this change has led to the destruction of the German shepherd breed.
> 
> It seems that Captain Max von Stephanitz foresaw this disaster and said: “Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”
> 
> In my opinion, the FCI and the SV (the German shepherd Dog Club inGermany) are causing the extinction of breed characteristics. They hide behind tests, like Schutzhund, IPO and others, and declare them “working titles”. Many good German shepherd breeders fall into this trap and breed dogs for these purposes only. Schutzhund, IPO and other exams of this kind, are not working tests! And certainly not working titles that testify to the true character of the dog.
> 
> In Schutzhund, IPO, and other tests of this sort, the dog and handler perform exercises which are known in advance in sterile conditions. For example, the “defense test” in Schutzhund is not a test of true defense; they do not test the ability of the dog in conditions that are as close as possible to real conditions. This is an exercise and situation that the dog is familiar with in advance and for which he is trained over a period of months.
> 
> In addition, real control over the dog when there is no attack on the handler is not tested (a real defense dog should not attack if his handler is not attacked and/or gives a command). The “object” in Schutzhund defense tests is a target that in fact cooperates with the dog. Even more, “defense exercises” in these tests take place in a closed field, such as a football field or such, so that the stability of the dog in variable conditions and environments is not tested.
> 
> The “Test of courage” , in this kind of trials, at best will reveal only the worst dogs. That is to say, a relatively poor dog will succeed in passing the test if trained by a skilled trainer and no mistakes have been made in his training.
> 
> The significance of Schutzhund and IPO is not real; they are carried out without any disturbances and in sterile conditions that are well known in advance. Also the tracking part of the test is not realistic; preparation of the track is not natural, the dog carries his nose too low, so that he can not perform tracking in a true manner. I would like to emphasize that I am not against the sport of Schutzhund, IPO, and others. I am very much opposed to those that claim that Schutzhund is a test of working dogs and/or defense dogs. These tests do not show the following:
> 
> 1. The mental stability of a dog in conditions of stress.
> 
> 2. Defense ability
> 
> 3. Obedience in real life conditions
> 
> 4. Complex nose work
> 
> 5. Courage
> 
> 6. Loyalty
> 
> 7. Ability of the dog to deal with unfamiliar situations
> 
> As said, tests like Schutzhund, IPO and others have no possibility of checking the true character of the dog, how he deals with real life situations, his working ability and behavior in relation to his environment (adults, children, other animals). To claim that a dog with a “Schutzhund 3? title is a “working dog” is like claiming that a naked man hiding behind a fig leaf is dressed in a knight’s armor.
> 
> I would like to say that breeding based on the results of Schutzhund, IPO and other tests is not at all breeding for working ability. Even worse, the distorted animal called ” show German shepherd dog” resulting from breeding for appearance is a dog with a humped back, rabbit legs, and long and low croup that almost touches the ground. Many show dogs have completely lost the temperament characteristics and the correct conformation, and from a health standpoint many of them provide a good living to veterinarians.
> 
> In my opinion, it is completely unacceptable to call these dogs “German shepherd dogs”. At this point the reader will no doubt ask: “If this is the case, why has the back and hind end of the dog become so distorted, and why despite this are so many breeding these dogs?”
> 
> It becomes apparent that this distortion gives the dog a very long stride with his hind legs, which makes possible movement that is nearly floating. It must be emphasized that this construction is not natural to the dog many show dogs suffer from severe physical and mental disabilities, because the breeding is based on the trot alone and all the rest is neglected.
> 
> There are dogs from show breeding that have the title “Schutzhund 3? and so on, and this is a further example why these tests do not assist at all in selective breeding. It is worth emphasizing that many German shepherds from this sort of breeding are not capable of performing work, and some of them have very weak nerves. Lately I have become aware that Czech and Slovak breeders (who in the past bred German shepherds with correct body construction) are lowering the hindquarters of the dogs, lengthening the loin, and arching the back. In not one case alone, I have viewed photos of working Czech and Slovakian dogs where it can clearly be seen how the handler tries by pressing on the croup to lower the hindquarters of the dog. This is like a man trying to sell his car, and showing the buyer photos showing the faults of his vehicle. With the help of this article, I would like to turn to the Czech and Slovakian breeders and of course the East Germans and to say: In the past you bred excellent dogs, dogs that were purchased by buyers from all over the world because they were different from the dogs fromWest Germany.
> 
> I find it hard to understand why you are determined to spoil the quality and uniqueness that made your dogs so well known. Unfortunately you currently are losing, step by step, the quality. Please, stop the deterioration and breed dogs that are not according to the FCI standard ëôé ùîôøùéí àåúå.
> 
> I am certainly aware of the fact that many are partners to my deep concern for the fate of the German shepherd, and that until now there was no alternative.
> 
> When the goal of breeding German shepherds is Schutzhund, IPO and so on (or even worse dog shows) we will never achieve the true and correct German shepherd a true working dog that is also a family dog. The FCI and the SV has erred completely from the path of the breed founder and are not focusing on breeding for work and for health, and therefore there are German shepherd breeders that have gone on to breed other breeds. An additional reason is the great difficult involved in finding a quality German shepherd.
> 
> Selection for breeding must focus on examination of the dog and not examination of the level of the handler and/or level of training. A true temperament test is one that neither the dog nor the handler knows in advance. A true test examines the temperament of the dog in a wide range of situations and stimuli, and focuses on characteristics, responses and drives of the dog.
> 
> Tests of character, health and suitability as carried out by the SV and other German shepherd clubs that are members of the FCI are carried out in a superficial way and do not provide enough information about the true character of the dog. In addition, these tests lack “language” describing conformation and character, so that not much possibility of interpretation based on the amount of information provided is left for each “professional” .
> 
> For example, in the Israel German Shepherd Club, member of the Israel Kennel Club (which is a member of the FCI) the judge of the examination is the breeding coordinator who does not have any experience as a dog trainer or a dog behaviorist. The dog is examined at shows and in sterile areas, the judge observes the dog in movement and static, takes interest in the dog’s weight (there is no scale present), shoots a starter’s pistol, and with this completes the character test for a German shepherd in the Israel German Shepherd Club.
> 
> In other countries, the helper is dressed with a sleeve (which serves as an objective for the dog) and performs a simple exercise which the dog is familiar with in advance. In this exam, the dog is tested for courage, toughness, persistence and so on. The dog must grip the sleeve of the helper and then is written: “Released sleeve on command/ Did not release sleeve on command”. From a distance of 15 steps a starter’s pistol is fired and the reaction is written down. It is important to emphasize, that this is not a reaction to shooting but a reaction to noise! Is the dog who does not release the sleeve a bad dog? Maybe his trainer didn’t do his job properly? (And what are we checking here? The level of training or the temperament of the dog ? )
> 
> If an immediate and dramatic change will not take place in the interpretation of the standards and in breeding examinations and working tests, in the method of awarding titles, and in the essence of the breeding of German shepherds, this wonderful breed will disappear as if it had never been. If the correct goal is defined, then in the end it will be achieved. But, if the goal is not correct, then the desired goal will never be reached. Therefore, a change is urgently required to save the German shepherd breed.
> 
> Before I get to the solution, I will mention in short the major problems:
> 
> 1. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to find German shepherds that are capable of coping with new circumstances successfully, and that are healthy and intelligent.
> 
> 2. The standard and essence of breeding of the German shepherd according to the FCI have veered away from the true goal of the breeding of these dogs.
> 
> 3. The SV has diverged from the path of the breed’s founder, and some of the dogs can’t even be called “German shepherds” according to the definition of the founder, Max von Stephanitz.
> 
> 4. Breeding that is based on the results of Schutzhund and/or IPO tests is completely mistaken and not breeding for work.
> 
> 5. Titles are awarded to dogs that do not correctly represent the breed both in temperament and conformation.
> 
> 6. Orthopedic problems (hips, etc.)
> 
> 7. Diseases such as hemophilia, skin problems, etc.
> 
> 8. Selection and suitability for breeding examinations that do not consider the temperament and health of the dog.
> 
> 9. Many temperament problems (in show breeding) and breeding based on Schutzhund, IPO and such.
> 
> I am completely aware of the fact that my article may cause resentment in certain clubs, but I am sure that those that recognize the importance of the German shepherd breed will agree with my words. As I have said, we must act as quickly as possible lest it be too late, and therefore I have founded the International Working German Shepherd Club. I have written a new standard for the breed. I have also developed selection tests, breeding regulations, a working test, and regulations for working titles and conformation titles.
> 
> The goals of the club:
> 
> 1. To breed German shepherd dogs that are true in character, health and performance.
> 
> 2. To promote and encourage work with the German shepherd.
> 
> 3. To encourage private owners of German shepherds to work with their dogs.
> 
> 4. To educate to correct, trustworthy and honest cynology.
> 
> 5. To define an international language relating to character and conformation. Therefore, I have developed a ranking that includes the important temperament characteristics and drives, and a scale to describe the degrees precisely.
> 
> 6. Refreshing of blood lines in the breed.
> 
> 7. Competitions.
> 
> 8. Registration of German shepherd dogs in one stud book.
> 
> 9. International cooperation for the promotion of the breed.
> 
> Amateurs or professionals if you agree with my opinions and want to be part of the most important cynological process in the last hundred years, I call to you to join us.
> 
> Breeders, trainers, judges that are active or that have left the system because they don’t agree with the FCI, AKC, SV, etc., handlers and trainers of army and police dogs, groups that are interested in establishing clubs acting according to the regulations of the IWGSDC come and participate in the preservation of the German shepherd dog.
> 
> [email protected]


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## msvette2u

> 1. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to find German shepherds that are capable of coping with new circumstances successfully, and that are healthy and intelligent.


What bunk.


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## lorihd

"WOW", who died and left him boss? well some points i agree with and lots i dont agree with.


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## robk

I think it is an interesting read and have no problems with the point that he is making that for the breed to survive, true working ability needs to be preserved.


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## codmaster

I wonder who the author is and what qualifications does he/her have to make such judgements?


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## Whiteshepherds

I thought this was the best part of the article:
Selection for breeding must focus on examination of the dog and not examination of the level of the handler and/or level of training. A true temperament test is one that neither the dog nor the handler knows in advance. A true test examines the temperament of the dog in a wide range of situations and stimuli, and focuses on characteristics, responses and drives of the dog.


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## RubyTuesday

> I also tend to agree, that most of the nowadays problems are direct result of over breeding and breeding for companionship only.


In the piece posted above the problems emphasized were breeding for show & SchH. Several comments actually noted the importance of the companion role to well bred GSD. A well bred GSD excels as a companion b/c of the inherent nerve strength, stability, discerning intelligence, problem solving abilities & sound judgment. Take the companionship out of the GSD & we'll be left with considerably less. Partnering is as integral to the GSD as its much vaunted working abilities.


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## cliffson1

No, I didn't write the article....lolo, but it seems like I have heard these things before...hahaha. Its actually amusing hearing some of the comments about what he writes....he probably has the same qualifications as I do to write this bunk!!!!!...Really lol.


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## Castlemaid

This article makes a lot of good points.


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## onyx'girl

> we must act as quickly as possible lest it be too late, and therefore I have founded the *International Working German Shepherd Club*.I have written a new standard for the breed. I have also developed selection tests, breeding regulations, a working test, and regulations for working titles and conformation titles.


I wish Amnon Ben Izhak luck with his new endeavor. If only it were that easy.....


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## MaggieRoseLee

webdome, be aware that one of the board rules is: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/announcements.html



> 13. Due to the size of the forum all posts should be less than 1,000 words. If you feel the information warrants exceeding the 1,000 word limit you need to get approval from one of the Administrators before posting. Should a post far exceed this limit please just provide a link on the board to a private web page where the article can be found.


Your quote alone is almost 3,000 so will be shortened as soon as a moderator is able to get to it. 

Good information though...


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## DianaM

I'd applaud the article but my hands would be bruised and bleeding by the time I was done. He is clearly very passionate about the breed. 

There are a few working organizations dedicated to springing upon the dog scenarios that are very difficult to train for. Basically, you work the dog in varied environments, use very real pressure, and then rely on the genetics of the dog for the rest. Schutzhund, while much much MUCH better than nothing, is a pattern. Good decoys will bring out the true character in dogs and good judges will score accordingly but this is not always the case. In any event, biting a sleeve and finding guys in tents isn't indicative of real life work. Send the dog down a very dark alleyway at night with boxes and galvanized garbage cans and have the handler be mock-attacked by a very convincingly angry decoy with a well concealed bite suit and you'll have an excellent test of character. More so if the test began with strolling through a downtown block party with a mob of people and their own dogs. Prove you're stable, prove you accept other people, then prove you can kick butt when called upon to assist. 

A very interesting note is that he mentioned bringing in fresh blood. It would be a wonderful idea to inject some malinois blood from lines that complement the characteristics of specific lines of GSDs. They are out there. After a very few generations of this outcross, many will not know the difference except for the genetics benefits. At the least, it should be done with the more moderately structured, sound, active showlines. I will say that many of the white GSDs and BBSs have handsome structure that appear to be quite functional. Color notwithstanding, many are built commendably.

This will be an interesting organization to watch. Echoing Jane, I wish him the very best and hope he can succeed.


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## codmaster

*"There are dogs from show breeding that have the title “Schutzhund 3? and so on, and this is a further example why these tests do not assist at all in selective breeding"*

What did the author mean by the above statment, do you think? Is he trying to say that NO GSD from "show" breeding is any good at all, or is he trying to say that the ScH3 title is no good at all - both? I can't tell - does anybody know what the guy meant?

You think that this individual just might have a vested interest in downing all of the current folks, both in USA and Europe GSD organizations? Just perhaps his interests lie in his brand new organization, maybe?


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## codmaster

BTW, the author certainly seems to have the answers to all of the problems evident in today's GSD, doesn't he.


And if you agree with him then he wants you to join his new organization.

"Amateurs or professionals *if you agree with my opinions* and want to be part of the *most important cynological process in the last hundred years*, I call to you to join us.
Breeders, trainers, judges that are active or that have left the system because they don’t agree with the FCI, AKC, SV, etc., handlers and trainers of army and police dogs, groups that are interested in establishing clubs acting according to the regulations of the IWGSDC come and participate in the preservation of the German shepherd dog.
[email protected]
We *promise to answer anyone who is a partner to our thoughts* and directions and interested in assisting and supporting, for our own generation and the generations to come. Please be patient, *there are many requests*"

Has anybody joined yet?


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## DianaM

Codmaster, while he pointed out some very true statements, there might not be any way to tell for certain his motives. It would be most beneficial to make changes to schutzhund tests than create an all-new club and registry with all-new tests. Bringing back the palisade (with a ramp on one side to remove landing impact) would do much to ensure good working structure would pass. Making it unacceptable to have decoys fight like inflatable arm-flailing tube men would help as well. There are plenty of videos on youtube where it's obvious the helper wants to fight and pressure the dog but he has received clear instructions to do the bare minimum to ensure most dogs pass, deserving or otherwise.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/uploads/vhleigbiter/images/Lasso palisade.jpg

Now that's awesome!


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## Hunther's Dad

"I am completely aware of the fact that my article may cause resentment in certain clubs, but I am sure that those that recognize the importance of the German shepherd breed will agree with my words. As I have said, we must act as quickly as possible lest it be too late, and therefore I have founded the International Working German Shepherd Club. I have written a new standard for the breed. I have also developed selection tests, breeding regulations, a working test, and regulations for working titles and conformation titles."

And we should trust you, why?

www.iwgsdc.org, his website for his organization, comes up in a foreign language that looks like Japanese, but may be Hebrew. I clicked on a couple of links before I realized that I could get a computer virus if I couldn't read the site. More of the same foreign language script, no pictures to give a clue of what was there, other than a header of Christmas tree ornaments. 

I would like to see some qualifications and experience before I go trusting this fellow. Right now, he reminds me of the "Israeli gun fighting expert" who was going to show us Americans how to fight with a pistol, and who advocated leaving the chamber of the pistol empty for safety.


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## Whiteshepherds

Hunther's Dad;2446368
[URL="http://www.iwgsdc.org" said:


> www.iwgsdc.org[/URL], his website for his organization, comes up in a foreign language that looks like Japanese, but may be Hebrew. I clicked on a couple of links before I realized that I could get a computer virus if I couldn't read the site. More of the same foreign language script, no pictures to give a clue of what was there, other than a header of Christmas tree ornaments.


It looks like his site either got hacked or he didn't renew his domain name and it was taken over. (happens often)


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## GSDwriter

Hunther's Dad said:


> "
> 
> And we should trust you, why?
> 
> www.iwgsdc.org, his website for his organization, comes up in a foreign language that looks like Japanese, but may be Hebrew. I clicked on a couple of links before I realized that I could get a computer virus if I couldn't read the site. More of the same foreign language script, no pictures to give a clue of what was there, other than a header of Christmas tree ornaments.
> 
> I would like to see some qualifications and experience before I go trusting this fellow. Right now, he reminds me of the "Israeli gun fighting expert" who was going to show us Americans how to fight with a pistol, and who advocated leaving the chamber of the pistol empty for safety.


Are you sure that's the right link? Google Translate 

seems to be a credit card scam


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## GSDwriter

Also can be found on FB, Linkin, etc. If there were questions to be directed at him specifically. 

Amnon Ben Izhak - Google Search

Reminds me of a post from yesterday (at least I read it yesterday) Here's the link to the article from the thread, I'll try and see if I can pull the thread up. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this too: German Shepherd Herding An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne


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## cliffson1

The man said there are dogs from Show breeding that have Sch 3 and blah blah blah, from that some people extrapolate that he might be insinuating that NO dog from show breeding...blah, blah, blah. When I see comprehension or interpretation like that, I understand why this breed is so varied. Fortunately, I think many people understand what he is saying and it resonates with a lot of what we see today. Of course if some of these breed people(sport or show) don't have the integrity to acknowledge this because it threatens the credibilty of these venues today as they exist.....it is understandable. 
I had the pleasure of going to a FEMA urban disaster training site this weekend. It was eye opening as to how difficult the genetic requirements are for a dog to be successful in this vocation. They have very little success in GS of today being able to pass the initial certification. Why? Nerve strength!!! and Physical structure!!
I'm talking about working 911 or Haiti type disasters. These dogs are required to walk on all kinds of treacherous footing, big concrete beams, various degrees of height and depth percerption, I mean it blew me away!! Trust me....75% of the sport/show GS will not pass. You need incredible nerve and awesome drive to work while always going on unsure footing. You have to be fearless in regard to distraction. Now I am not talking about Wilderness type SAR, many GS are successful there....but this urban stuff is tough. 
But as I read this article(I was aware of this article long before and others by him), he hits it right on the head. Urban SAR takes the same kinda of nerve base that police/military dogs require, that seeing-eye dogs require. All different uses and some without aggression use, but all require what the breed should have first; and that is tremendous nervebase and physical structure to be fast and agile. And most breeders today don't breed for that FIRST, and are misled by structure that is pleasing but not very functional for the work the dog was made to do. So we have made the success for the show and sport world what we like to see and the dog has followed suit albeit contrary to what real practitoners are needing for the breed to be. So the Urban SAR are finding more success with labs and mals, and the police with Mals, and the seeing eye people with labs and goldens....wake up people lies don't figure and figures don't lie. We have created a pet/show/sport breed out of a working breed is all the gentlemen is trying to say.....and most of the people who protest this, are pet/show/sport people.....makes sense doesn't it.


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## PaddyD

Just what the GSD needs, a new Fuhrer.
Listen for the sound of one hand clapping.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> The man said there are dogs from Show breeding that have Sch 3 and blah blah blah, from that some people extrapolate that he might be insinuating that NO dog from show breeding...blah, blah, blah. When I see comprehension or interpretation like that, I understand why this breed is so varied. Fortunately, I think many people understand what he is saying and it resonates with a lot of what we see today. Of course if some of these breed people(sport or show) don't have the integrity to acknowledge this because it threatens the credibilty of these venues today as they exist.....it is understandable.
> I had the pleasure of going to a FEMA urban disaster training site this weekend. It was eye opening as to how difficult the genetic requirements are for a dog to be successful in this vocation. They have very little success in GS of today being able to pass the initial certification. Why? Nerve strength!!! and Physical structure!!
> I'm talking about working 911 or Haiti type disasters. These dogs are required to walk on all kinds of treacherous footing, big concrete beams, various degrees of height and depth percerption, I mean it blew me away!! Trust me....75% of the sport/show GS will not pass. You need incredible nerve and awesome drive to work while always going on unsure footing. You have to be fearless in regard to distraction. Now I am not talking about Wilderness type SAR, many GS are successful there....but this urban stuff is tough.
> But as I read this article(I was aware of this article long before and others by him), he hits it right on the head. Urban SAR takes the same kinda of nerve base that police/military dogs require, that seeing-eye dogs require. All different uses and some without aggression use, but all require what the breed should have first; and that is tremendous nervebase and physical structure to be fast and agile. And most breeders today don't breed for that FIRST, and are misled by structure that is pleasing but not very functional for the work the dog was made to do. So we have made the success for the show and sport world what we like to see and the dog has followed suit albeit contrary to what real practitoners are needing for the breed to be. So the Urban SAR are finding more success with labs and mals, and the police with Mals, and the seeing eye people with labs and goldens....wake up people lies don't figure and figures don't lie. We have created a pet/show/sport breed out of a working breed is all the gentlemen is trying to say.....and most of the people who protest this, are pet/show/sport people.....makes sense doesn't it.


cliffson -

I guess this ghuy must be the true expert -- (based on his own words)
*"I have written a new standard for the breed. I have also developed selection tests, breeding regulations, a working test, and regulations for working titles and conformation titles."
*
Lot of "I" in there, heh?

I didn't see anything in his article about his qualifications to give the world a new GSD standard and all the rest. Does anyone know what his qualifications, achievements, and expertise are to be able to dictate everything?

A lot of regulations there based on his thoughts alone evidently that I would suppose in his own mind that every breeder, trainer and owner must follow to save the breed.

An interesting article!

Anyone ever had/met any dogs of his own breeding?


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## cliffson1

Codmaster, I don't need to see who wrote something for me to KNOW if it resonates with what I have seen over a long period of time and in many different venues. Maybe for you, the source is important....and that's fine, but for me I have seen what he writes about as definitely being the case. Again, if you talk to real practitioners, police, military, seeing-eye, foundations, SAR, you will hear the same things being lamented. I don't expect most weekend warriors/breeders to see things this way. It is hard to find GS to do these jobs anymore, and these people will attest to that. That shouldn't be!!! This breed was made to excell in these things and have in the past. And since in most cases, GS don't breed themselves, then who should be held accountable for where the breed has gotten????
Again, the people who take the most umbrage with this article, are coming from a different perspective and experience in real working dogs....and that's my nice way of saying it. 
Youall, can believe whatever makes your hearts happy, but it is what is is.
That's why there are so many threads about shy, reactive, behavoiral, puppies.....some wrong paths have been followed.


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## msvette2u

Are you talking backyard style breeders or legit breeders here??

Because bybs have wrecked every single breed out there, and that's not enough, now they're mixing breeds (-doodle dogs and other mixes) and overbreeding those as well.

The reason you do not see this issue in Germany (or not as much I am sure) is breeding is so tightly controlled.

Land of the free and all, people can do what they want, when they want, and these are the results.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> I didn't see anything in his article about his qualifications to give the world a new GSD standard and all the rest. Does anyone know what his qualifications, achievements, and expertise are to be able to dictate everything?


Google is your friend, he's all over the internet.


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## Vandal

> The reason you do not see this issue in Germany (or not as much I am sure) is breeding is so tightly controlled.


Germany is a huge mess. They are not controlling anything anymore. Just LOOKS like they are. That's what everything is about now, the "appearance" that things are all as they should be. They aren't, not even close. 
The breed is a mess and some of the ideas, while I didn't read all 3000 characters, are good ideas. Especially the part where the influence of the people is minimized. When people know what the test is, they train for the test. After watching them manipulate the crap out of the SchH test for the last 35 years, I will say it is not the SchH routine that is the problem, it is that the PEOPLE know the routine and train their dog to "look" like he is doing protection. Just the fact that we have to talk about whether a dog is "serious" about protection says it all. lol.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Codmaster, *I don't need to see who wrote something for me to KNOW if it resonates with what I have seen over a long period of time and in many different venues*. Maybe for you, the source is important....and that's fine, but for me I have seen what he writes about as definitely being the case. Again, if you talk to real practitioners, police, military, seeing-eye, foundations, SAR, you will hear the same things being lamented. I don't expect most weekend warriors/breeders to see things this way. It is hard to find GS to do these jobs anymore, and these people will attest to that. That shouldn't be!!! This breed was made to excell in these things and have in the past. And since in most cases, GS don't breed themselves, then who should be held accountable for where the breed has gotten????
> *Again, the people who take the most umbrage with this article, are coming from a different perspective and experience in real working dogs....and that's my nice way of saying* it.
> Youall, can believe whatever makes your hearts happy, but it is what is is.
> That's why there are so many threads about shy, reactive, behavoiral, puppies.....some wrong paths have been followed.


So obviously you are one of the people that the author (whoever he is as I haven't ever heard of anything that he has acomplished in GSD's) is looking for to join his new world order of GSD's. More power to you and him!

One little tiny question perhaps, cliffso, that is just because you and him (and a LOT of other people) believe that the GSD breed really needs improvement - WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE THAT HE HAS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT?

He claims to have a NEW GSD Standard (And exactly what is wrong with the one that we have now?). I thought the problem with the GSD was that breeders and judges and owners were not following what we have now as a standard. Maybe you, cliffson, as a person with great experience in the breed, can tell the rest of us what is wrong with the current GSD standard?????


(BTW - have you heard of anything that he has done related to the GSD breed?)

And most importantly, have you personally joined his new organization yet?


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## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> Google is your friend, he's all over the internet.
> K9 SPECIAL TRAINING AMNON BEN IZHAK - YouTube


Thanks! I watched the video.
Are you kidding me!

That is what he wants the GSD breed to become?

It shows what seem to be GSD's as military dogs perhaps in Special Ops.

Three of the dogs shown were seen to be running around and then running up to decoys laying motionless on the ground and the dog gives a heck of a bite to them. WHY IS THIS A "BETTER" GSD?

Why would this be a good test for a GSD? There was NO threat to the dog - decoy was laying motionless on the ground and did not threaten the dog or handler at all.

If this is the type of GSD that this new org is saying should be the ideal - WOW!

Would such a dog make a good Seeing Eye dog?

I can tell it would be a great S&R dog (although we better hope that the victim isn't laying motionless on the ground when the dog finds them!!!).

If this is really what this "New" GSD is - NO THANKS!


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## cliffson1

BYBers, do not usually participate in sport and show!!!!!! Vandal is right about Sch.....it used to be a safeguard against losing the nerve and working capabilities in the breed. This was BEFORE Sch became a sport so to speak. People didn't breed for sport or for show....they bred for a complete dog making breeding decisions on what was lacking and what needed to be improved....regardless of color, size, head size, bone, angulation, or gait(unless one of these things were deficient....but then they wouldn't keep breeding for more gait/size and more gait/size, and more gait/size); and temperament, especially strength of temperament always was first consideration, again unless you has a specific area to address.
I know its not like that anymore, cause people like their purdy black and reds, and their rocket launching long bites. I get that!!! But it doesn't change the FACT that the breed has suffered in being what it is supposed to be SO THAT these people that need dogs that are rock solid in nerve and temperament now more often than not have to go to other breeds to find dogs to do the work....shameful,imo.
What did the author say, "Please keep my dog what?????????? That's has become a joke! Sure you will find intermittenly some good dogs and good breeders today, that still hold these principles foremost in their programs....but the refusal of people to acknowledge the "mess" the breed is in, and the many experts who have no experience working a working dog much less breeding one, certainly don't help. 
Whether you like what this person writes or not, there's no denying the truth of what he writes. And the truth is much more important than any of our opinions.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> BYBers, do not usually participate in sport and show!!!!!! Vandal is right about Sch.....it used to be a safeguard against losing the nerve and working capabilities in the breed. This was BEFORE Sch became a sport so to speak. People didn't breed for sport or for show....they bred for a complete dog making breeding decisions on what was lacking and what needed to be improved....regardless of color, size, head size, bone, angulation, or gait(unless one of these things were deficient....but then they wouldn't keep breeding for more gait/size and more gait/size, and more gait/size); and temperament, especially strength of temperament always was first consideration, again unless you has a specific area to address.
> I know its not like that anymore, cause people like their purdy black and reds, and their rocket launching long bites. I get that!!! But it doesn't change the FACT that the breed has suffered in being what it is supposed to be SO THAT these people that need dogs that are rock solid in nerve and temperament now more often than not have to go to other breeds to find dogs to do the work....shameful,imo.
> What did the author say, "Please keep my dog what?????????? That's has become a joke! Sure you will find intermittenly some good dogs and good breeders today, that still hold these principles foremost in their programs....but the refusal of people to acknowledge the "mess" the breed is in, and the many experts who have no experience working a working dog much less breeding one, certainly don't help.
> Whether you like what this person writes or not, there's no denying the truth of what he writes. And the truth is much more important than any of our opinions.


I agree wholehardly that the GSD breed has a lot of problems today - my thought was "who made this guy the one to lead the revolution?" to fix the problems.


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## onyx'girl

Maybe he took it upon himself? Why does it matter that YOU have never heard of him? He isn't in the US or the show world. Helmut Raiser has the same thoughts...as do many others. I don't know that a new organization will be the answer, it isn't that easy of a fix.


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## cliffson1

Codmasters, What do I need to join him for, to acknowledge what he writes....I have been writing the same thing for more years than some who write on this forum have had a GS. 
As for his new standard....I never said anything about his new standard or organization whatsoever....there you go projecting again....haha. Look, my comments have to do with the early part of the article in which he outlines many of the shortcomings of the breed today compared to what it used to be. I don't need him to validate what I already know, but many new people believe the dribble that comes from the apologist of what the breed is today. I will continue to give them alternate expectations for the breed and let them figure out if what they see routinely, reflects what people like him and I say; or what the apologists say(in terms of the dog being what it ought to be). 
I haven't joined his organization, nor is it necessary for me to do so. He's not opening up my eyes....I have preached what he writes since I left AKC/GSDCA many years ago, and have seen it go to SV, and now to sport. 
Have YOU heard of Helmut Raiser, Codmastersan......he preaches the same things as this person including standard and training revisions....is his qualifications sturdy enough for the credential oriented?????
Look, we don't see the breed the same, and that is fine.....but the future for the breed is important to me, so I really am more interested in new people revitalizng the breed, than warring with the establishment, I think when presented information that coincides with what people see, new people will make some changes. But if all they hear, is the people who are in control now.....well, as I said the GS didn't breed themselves.
You can have last word if you want. Peace!


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## cliffson1

Hey Jane, I didn't read your post until after I sent mine, but as for H Raiser.....I guess I'm not the only one who sees what he is saying...lol
You had the same thoughts also....haha.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe he took it upon himself? Why does it matter that YOU have never heard of him? He isn't in the US or the show world. Helmut Raiser has the same thoughts...as do many others. I don't know that a new organization will be the answer, it isn't that easy of a fix.


 
Why? So Helmut wants to create a new GSD standard as well as a brand new organization with all of the new regulations as well? I didn't realize that. 

It doesn't matter ONE BIT that I have never heard of this guy! And I don't believe that I ever said that it did, did I? 

Are YOU going to join his new organization and follow his new set of "rules"?

Think everyone should?

There are certainly problems in the GSD breed - I just happen to be one of those folks who don't think that we need a new standard - just better adherence to the current one!

Just for the heck of it - what would you, onyx and others, like to see changed in our current existing GSD standard (either of them)?


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Codmasters, What do I need to join him for, to acknowledge what he writes....I have been writing the same thing for more years than some who write on this forum have had a GS.
> As for his new standard....I never said anything about his new standard or organization whatsoever....there you go projecting again....haha. Look, my comments have to do with the early part of the article in which he outlines many of the shortcomings of the breed today compared to what it used to be. I don't need him to validate what I already know, but many new people believe the dribble that comes from the apologist of what the breed is today. I will continue to give them alternate expectations for the breed and let them figure out if what they see routinely, reflects what people like him and I say; or what the apologists say(in terms of the dog being what it ought to be).
> I haven't joined his organization, nor is it necessary for me to do so. He's not opening up my eyes....I have preached what he writes since I left AKC/GSDCA many years ago, and have seen it go to SV, and now to sport.
> Have YOU heard of Helmut Raiser, Codmastersan......he preaches the same things as this person including standard and training revisions....is his qualifications sturdy enough for the credential oriented?????
> Look, we don't see the breed the same, and that is fine.....but the future for the breed is important to me, so I really am more interested in new people revitalizng the breed, than warring with the establishment, I think when presented information that coincides with what people see, new people will make some changes. But if all they hear, is the people who are in control now.....well, as I said the GS didn't breed themselves.
> You can have last word if you want. Peace!


cliffson2,

so are you for this new organization or against it. acknoledging that there are problems in the breed and falling in behind some new guy with his own solution are two very different things altogether. (and I aplogize to those who don't see that!).

so, since you are not going to join his brand new organization (my assumption from what you write), who do you think should join him? If no one joins or not enough join, then his efforts will come to naught, won't they?

Do you, with all of your experience, feel that the GSD needs a new standard? If so, who should develop it? One individual, like this guy?So it sounds like you don't agree with all he wrote just some of it. Hard to follow - but no matter.


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## onyx'girl

Maybe people should just stop following the AKC standard. That would be a start.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe people should just stop following the AKC standard. That would be a start.


 
The problem is that many breeders have done exactly that - stop adhering to the standard!

What do you think is wrong with the AKC standard? 

What part(s) of the standard would you change if you had the opportunity? 

Have you read the standard lately?

For example, is there anything in the AKC standard about the temperament of the GSD that you would change?

*"Temperament*
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose."

See anything wrong with this standard for temperament? 

I think it sounds like a GSD I would love to own! How about anybody else?


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## cliffson1

No, Helmut has already created a new organization in Germany, with FCI approval and just recently CKC has accepted their existence and papers. Of course AKC is slow to follow along, but the point is RSV2000 is real and is looking to revitalize the breed. As for my personal actions, all I can say is that I always strive to own and promote dogs that can pass any of the three standards, SV, RSV2000, or even his for that matter.....a good German Shepherd should have no problem with any of the standards and that's what I strive for.


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## cliffson1

Codmaster, are you saying that the majority of German Shepherds match that temperament description????? And if a majority don't....then who are the people who are breeding dogs that don't fit the standard, and what good is the standard???? If the majority of GS do fit that standard, then how come the miltary, police, SAR, and seeing-eye people have such a hard time finding candidates within the breed? You see, you can take a fearless and confident GS and almost train him/her to do any of those things.....what am I missing????


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## onyx'girl

codmaster said:


> The problem is that many breeders have done exactly that - stop adhering to the standard!
> 
> What do you think is wrong with the AKC standard?
> 
> What part(s) of the standard would you change if you had the opportunity?
> 
> Have you read the standard lately?
> 
> For example, is there anything in the AKC standard about the temperament of the GSD that you would change?
> 
> *"Temperament*
> The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose."
> 
> See anything wrong with this standard for temperament?
> 
> I think it sounds like a GSD I would love to own! How about anybody else?


Yes, but most breeders that are in the AKC world are breeding for the form, not the temperament, unfortunately. How many working lines show in an AKC ring and place?


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> What part(s) of the standard would you change if you had the opportunity?


I wouldn't change the standard, I'd change the requirements for being awarded BOB etc. How can you know if a dog is the best of the breed by how it acts in the show ring? Why not make it mandatory for the dogs to have some titles behind their names before they're allowed to have the CH in front of it?


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## cliffson1

Do you ever notice that the apologist for whats out there today never want to discuss the CONTENT of what the author is writing. That's sooooo Weak!!!
Instead we want to focus on the author, the credentials, or misinterpret what is said to mean any and all instances, etc. Many who have little or no experience in the areas and things he writes about make comments that clearly show their opinion is not grounded in experience or knowledge. 
INSTEAD of discussing the content of what is written and how accurate is this written word with reality in the German Shepherd world. You see, if what is written has no validity, then the credentials of the author automatically becomes tarnished in my eyes. How about adult dialogues on what is actually happening with the breed in terms of articles like this. What further amazes me is how some resourceful people can go to experts in subject matter and find out information about given subjects....but breed people almost seem to be afraid of the truth. The seeing eye foundations will tell you why GS use has declined, ( many reasons but one primary reason), the military/police academies will tell you why they are seeking Mals as opposed to our breed in more and more instances(although their are 10X more GS in the world than mals), don't you find it pecular that show people that have puppies that because of faults that will hinder their show career, don't have relationships with working agencies to provide dogs?? 
Its not Cliff or this author, or Helmut Raiser who should be the focus....rather the focus should be what is ACTUALLY occurring with our beloved breed. 
The message needs to be discussed with facts and experiences, not the messenger or their credentials....that's an old debating trick.
The bottom line is if you are an enabler of what is current (in general), then things will continue to go south for this breed living up to ANY standard. And if the standard you point out doesn't reflect the majority of the breed, then something has to change for improvement. I personally have no problem with any of the standards,(and I agree with Codmaster on that point), but the people who are breeding and judging by this standard are not following it as reflected by what we have today....so what should people do????? I left GSDCA in 1976, because the National breed club no longer promoted or put up dogs that reflected the standard,(remember fearless and confident..lo), so now its 35 years later, and they still don't follow the standard that's why you seldom see them in real work...they used to shoot the messenger instead of the message....still do!! So the apologist want us to continue down that path????/How long?????50 years?????? Lets disuss the message and its validity and maybe improvement back to utility will result.


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## RubyTuesday

> Now I am not talking about Wilderness type SAR, many GS are successful there....but this urban stuff is tough.


Urban environments are tough on dogs, particularly naturally protective dogs. I live in such an environment. It's noisy, chaotic, contentious, aswarm with screaming children, posturing teens, drunken & doped up adults & a plethora of swaggering Pitbulls. 

Fights. Arguments. Shootings. Tears. Recriminations. Misunderstandings. All routine. For their own safety & well being, dogs must cope with these challenges without becoming fearful, reactive or inappropriately hostile. Frankly the phrase, 'just a pet' doesn't resonate with me. I shudder when I see it suggested that a pup that is shy, fearful or insecure needs to go to a pet home. NOT this pet home.


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## onyx'girl

I was thinking Clif's observation w/ the urban environment as the type rubble the dog has to search thru. A wilderness is bad with cliffs, briars, losing direction, but you get into cavernous concrete, wood,toxins/destruction type search and it is probably very difficult~especially for the olfactory sense and footing. Then adding in the distraction of observers and civilians...where as a wilderness search is more 'secured' without the contamination of outsiders.


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## cliffson1

They had three different surfaces that they tested the dog on....all three were as high as a three story building. The easiet surface was one of rubble made up of asphalt, concrete parts, dirt, stones, ledges, drops, and trees. They take the ball or tug and throw it into this stuff and the dog has to retreive it. Very challenging....very difficult footing, plus the dog has to be working.
Second test is about 1,000 wooden pallets all torn up and broken, jaggered parts, as high as two stories up in air. They throw the object up towards the top and the dog has to go up there with confidence and not reluctantly. The pallets aren't stable and when you step up on it may give or turn over cause they aren't stacked they are all torn up. Looked very dangerous for the dogs, but the Mals zipped up them while only one GS would do that. Couple other shepherds went gingerly up there, but they are looking for better genetic nerve strength than that. 
Last test was the killer. You had three sories high of giant beams that hold up giant bridges, (beams weigh tons and tons), also big sewer pipes that are 8 to 12 feet high that also weigh tons, and a lot of other debris. This things aren't stacked but have been placed by cranes in all kinda haphazard ways. The area is size of half a football field. It is extremely treacerous walking up there, and sometimes a beam comes to an end and the next solid piece may be 4 feet down or you may have to jump up two feet to a big half a sewer pipe or you may meet a dead end. If you fall off the beams you can go 10 to 15 feet down into rubble and other beams or pipes. Very demanding on the dogs depth perception, plus they have to work the whole area searching. None of the dogs tested this day passed the last test....none. A couple got up there, but they would get to certain spots and then not go any further. They have tower built like three stories up that you can go and observe. I watched two mals and one Czech/German dog that goes back to Sue and Gabor's breeding that actually worked the big pile. 
In closing, this is strictly about genetic nerve strength, they are looking for dogs about a year old with little training that will do all of these obstacles first time and fast....not tentatively!! Very similar to the environmental toughness needed to be a city police dog. 
Very very challenging, and a good barometer for the type of nerve strength we should be using in the breed.
Like they said, most GS today can't pass becauseof nerve strength and physical structure. And with the structure, the successful GS was good size but rangy and athletic, light on feet and very agile in jumpimg.....similar to the dogs of early days.
I'm always learning, but this only reinforces my opinion of how far the breed is off, that so many can't do this.


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## RubyTuesday

Yes, Jane. I also thought that was the point Cliff was making. What I was saying is that beyond the difficulties presented in _working_ an urban environment, there are stressors & difficulties for companion dogs who live in an urban environment 24/7 as well. 'Only a pet' might be sufficient in my sister's placid, roomy suburban neighborhood or my friend's quiet country home, but it's not adequate where I live.


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## cliffson1

I think what the author and many of us are trying to say is that like the Mercedes or Volkswagon.....we want something that is well built, safe, and DEPENDABLE. Something that was made to be used and continues to be able to be used. Not a cosmetic creation. The health and mental health issues are so prevalent these days, that puppies are crapshoots for being able to be good working dogs. The topics on shyness, aggression, over the top behavoirs, are always thriving from posters. The topics on hips, elbows, epi, spondylosis, bloat, allergies, etc are also thriving. The use of the breed in working capacities that they always excelled in, is decreasing, even as we use dogs more in these areas to serve man. Now if you can look yourself in the mirror and feel like this trend is good for the breed, then either you really know little about this breed or you are part of the trend taking the breed down this path. Either way, the breed is losing its identity....and that is sad!


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## robk

I said it earlier in the thread and I'll say it again. I have no problem with the point the author is making. The working ability of the GSD is fading. When we loose the working ability of the dog we loose the dog as it was intended to be. Working ability must be preserved and promoted for the utility of the breed to survive.


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## Andaka

I can't agree more. The health of our breed, both mentally and physically, is declining. Breeders of all flavors of GSD's need to do more to prevent that from happening.


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## webdome

Well, I am not trying to bump, this topic but just for some discussants, who preferred "power of authority" (Who's the author? What his qualifications?) over the common sense. Search Results for "Pedigree Dogs Exposed"


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> I had the pleasure of going to a FEMA urban disaster training site this weekend. It was eye opening as to how difficult the genetic requirements are for a dog to be successful in this vocation. They have very little success in GS of today being able to pass the initial certification. Why? Nerve strength!!! and Physical structure!!
> I'm talking about working 911 or Haiti type disasters. These dogs are required to walk on all kinds of treacherous footing, big concrete beams, various degrees of height and depth percerption, I mean it blew me away!! Trust me....75% of the sport/show GS will not pass. You need incredible nerve and awesome drive to work while always going on unsure footing. You have to be fearless in regard to distraction. Now I am not talking about Wilderness type SAR, many GS are successful there....but this urban stuff is tough.


So, so true. The problem, too, that GSD people have is getting the nerve strength and physical confidence with no dog aggression and very clear-headed/appropriate social aggression (the dogs have to be able to get onto a public airplane with the general public and perhaps crowd into a small bus with many unknown people and other SAR dogs--and be able to handle those stresses and not create problems--and then be able to work for 3 days straight when they hop off the bus.

When I say I am breeding toward SAR, this is what I am looking for--the physical confidence, the sound nerves, the high desire to work, and strong hunt drive that is needed for this sort of work. And the best part, IMO, is that these dogs make great companions and active pets if they are not in a working home. 

I've got a few pups out there who are doing urban SAR, working on rubble. One handler has 2 dogs from me, full brothers, both certified SAR dogs--both can handle the rubble, both have the hunt drive, the desire to work, and the trainability. One can handle the public airplane and the crowding into a bus in new country with different people and dogs--the other... the owner doesn't think so, so she doesn't take him to international stuff (training, so far, not actual searches). This other dog, she's been told (and I've seen) would probably have made an excellent police k-9. 

At any rate, the sad thing, to me, is how much physical competence and confidence GSDs lack--not a mental problem, I don't think--but a physical one. They aren't always born knowing where their hind feet are and how to use them independently. Watching dogs learn to walk a lateral ladder (a ladder type structure laid flat and raised about 24 inches off the ground), it's amazing how quickly so many other breeds can learn this--it was almost instant for a springer spaniel, a malinois, a golden retriever I watched. Yet the GSDs found it *very* challenging and almost panicking--and even those who didn't find it a mental problem still had to figure it out physically--it was not innate and it required a lot for most of them to figure out where their hind feet were.

https://picasaweb.google.com/100619446956993754435/WorkingSAR#5605319000308231522


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> They had three different surfaces that they tested the dog on.... Looked very dangerous for the dogs, but the Mals zipped up them while only one GS would do that. Couple other shepherds went gingerly up there, but they are looking for better genetic nerve strength than that.
> Last test was the killer. You had three sories high of giant beams that hold up giant bridges, (beams weigh tons and tons), also big sewer pipes that are 8 to 12 feet high that also weigh tons, and a lot of other debris. This things aren't stacked but have been placed by cranes in all kinda haphazard ways. The area is size of half a football field. It is extremely treacerous walking up there, and sometimes a beam comes to an end and the next solid piece may be 4 feet down or you may have to jump up two feet to a big half a sewer pipe or you may meet a dead end. If you fall off the beams you can go 10 to 15 feet down into rubble and other beams or pipes. Very demanding on the dogs depth perception, plus they have to work the whole area searching. None of the dogs tested this day passed the last test....none. A couple got up there, but they would get to certain spots and then not go any further. They have tower built like three stories up that you can go and observe. I watched two mals and one Czech/German dog that goes back to Sue and Gabor's breeding that actually worked the big pile.


What training location is this? Sounds like an extreme challenge--and if none of the dogs passed the final/third rubble pile, I would think that it is on the edge of what a dog (*any* dog) may be physically capable of. (Which isn't to say that we shouldn't be breeding *toward* that.) 

I'm also interested in knowing more about the breeding of the Czech/German dog that did well on the big pile--do you know his/her parents? Could you PM me/email me if you do (or post it here).

However, I'll add that I think it's not just about nerve strength--I think it goes back to physical capability--it's something innate that we have lost or bred out of GSDs--some connection with their hind end awareness. I think it's actually physical--the actual ability is not there, and then the dogs lose confidence because their bodies do not allow them to move with physical confidence. 

So, we have to breed not just for mental capacity/nerve strength--we have to see if we can breed back toward the physical capability.


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## BlackthornGSD

BTW, the album I linked above shows a dog working the actual rubble left behind by the tornadoes that went through Tuscaloosa last year. 

https://picasaweb.google.com/100619446956993754435/WorkingSAR#


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Im the true non expert who has one if not two BYB's(Lucky is a rescue). The alarming rate of health incidients GSDs are known to have is incredible. As my vet says every chronic health problem covered was followed up w/" and GSDs are a breed known for this" Ive read Stephanwitz book twice now,(not really a page turner) but he wanted a dog who worked ,loved children,was protective and the jack of all trades.I think the problem isnt the standard but how it is interpeted. A new standard might be the only way to save the breed. I dont know much but isnt the GSD supposed to be the rock solid nerve dog? I see AKC GSDs that are predominantly from the midwest or PA every year that arent as slanted ,dont look like bannanas.The next time I go Im going to ask the breeders if their kennel has bred dogs that do SAR,detection,herding cause that what the GSD is ultimately supposed to do. I hope I hear that they have dogs in all those venues. Im not betting though. My oldest has developed some health problems I did a search on the topic ,it is so sad the amount of dogs we lose to camcer,DM and other illnesses. Someone a while ago started a thread and in it they talked about the predominance of Lance of Fran Jo genetics throughout the American GSD pool.Im by no means have a clue about genetics but less diversity in the gene pool means the breed does not overcome barriers to survival and becomes weaker.Then there are the BYB's and unfortunately the GSD pays for it w/ weaker nerves,ill health and less of an ability to have a fuller life. I believe the ACA holds some responsibility for this but doubt that they will in any way help. If someone could come out and do something to help the GSD regain its strenght,health and nerve then Id support them. I probably have no place in this discussion but my past week has made me realize the GSD is paying the price for its popularity through so many problems both of nerves and health.It was announced the GSD was the third most popular breed in the US this past year. I pray we fall out of the top 20 and maybe the breed can come back.
Maggi


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## Emoore

Where could we go about getting tested for or learning more about this? It sounds right up my dog's alley.


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## cliffson1

Christine, you know exactly what I am talking about. The training site was in Baltimore....and you are right about the elevated horizontal ladder....Mals manage it quickly, but very few of our breed have the physical/nerve strength anymore to do this. Yet, there are a few GS that also take right to learning these things(and the rubble), but if people could see how dependent our breed looks these days as opposed to other breeds when placed in these challenging situations....not good!! I agree and said also that this was a nerve/physical phenomena that has occureed over the years with the specialization breeding. We've lost that zest and confidence to attack highly complex physical/mental tasks and still perform. We have the routine and patterned stuff downpat, but that stuff(shows and Sch) was really only supposed to be benchmarks to produce the types of dogs that Christine and I are talking about.....Oh how we've screwed that up.


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## GSD07

I think these GSD pups are doing great on wooden pellets rubble pallet pile.mp4 - YouTube (a litter bred by a member of this board). I can imagine that when these pups become working SAR dogs they will pass the test Cliff mentioned above.


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## carmspack

one of the things I do with my young pups is to expose them to challenges so that I can observe their thinking process and their boldness and uninhibited -- but still smart -- responses.
An example would be a litter of 5-6 week olds brought outdoors. A wooden picnic table moved into the centre of the lawn . Two panels of either extruded wire or welded wire leaning against table as a ramp - for young dogs not too vertical . Raw feed on top of picnic table . The pups are then released from the pen under the shade of the tree, follow me (without my saying a word - no coaxing -- they have to figure it out ) . You mark the ones that are consistently "there" with you, close to foot at side and eye contact or so close behind that you have to watch that your heel does not clip them on the jaw . Look to see who consistently hangs in middle , look to see who is (if anyone) lounging in the shade of the tree , who got distracted and "lost" and is staying home. If that is the case clap or call to get attention. These are the moments that will test you , when the bulk of the ones you have drawn out will drift back home , go visit the straggler . As long as you stand still you can manipulate them . When one looks and starts coming toward you that is the time to turn around and walk to your destination - the pups will catch up. Then at the base of the picnic table the pups should start to catch scent of the meat - muzzles pointing upward , pups starting to circle , go under the table , stand up , get frustrated , maybe try to pull themselves up onto the bench . 
You retreat and let them figure it out . Eventually they will try the ramps . You will see who figures it out first . Who is comfortable with the feel of the footing . Who may not even attempt it .

I have my young pups for service tested on two levels of stairs - in the dark - in the barn, on staggered bales of hay to get to the top level just under the ceiling (8 foot) scooting on belly to bring back that ball, on swaying planks , at cardboard recylcing depot where the cardboard keeps sliding out from underneath them. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Carmen this type of assessment and manipulation is necessary for a breeder to be able to accurately determine which pup is which(along with a slewful of other creative tests that I know you use). These tests have to be on and off your grounds and on and off of the ground if you know what I mean. 
But the key to this conversation in terms of people like Carmen, Sue, Lee, Lisa, Chris, (breeders), is that the information gleaned is used for helping to make genetic decisions in the future so that pups can do these things as opposed to whole litters that would find these things too challenging. Breeding decisions MUST be made based on improving weaknesses and breeding to dogs that will offset weaknesses regardless of type or color. Many people DO some of these tests but don't know how to read them well, or continue to breed within the same circle even when they see the litter, or the combination comes up weak in nerve or determination. These are some of the things that titles and certs can't give you....nerves, determination, and fight qualites are the most important qualities in this breed....the easiest to lose....the hardest to maintain, and can only be recognized and developed through commitment and experience.


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## cliffson1

@ GSD07.....Praise the lord and pass the bisquits....Thank you for that video. That is very much what I am talking about and the type of testing to REVEAL SO MUCH about individual and collective pups. You would be surprised how many grown GS today that will not attempt to walk on that surface much less perform a duty on it. Just in that short video you can see different strengths and attributes in the way each of the pups handle the challenge. How this stressor affects their mobility and ability to keep up. How they recover from unsure footing, or a fall, the vocalizations being made giving out information. Just so much is there if you know how to read. All of this is tied to nerve strength and physicality....whether you want to believe it or not....we are losing these traits in the breed because breeders are no longer screening or testing pups and then making adjustments in breeding decisions. 
Thanks GSD07


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## carmspack

absolutely , it is an evaluation of the success of an entire litter. Notice I don't entice them to do anything . I let it play out . The result is you get emails like this 
" do have to tell you that he is incredibly strong, fast, and very agile. He has learned how to jump the fence – it’s about 4 feet tall, has picked a spot and will jump/climb it easily when he is in the back yard. He only does this is we are on the other side to come join us or the kids"

5 month old dogs totally sure of themselves with a good sense of physicallity and strong social bonds .

I know this all too well, I have this dogs brother Oslo and he did the same thing -- up and over not even touching the wire . 

You see confidence when dogs encounter water , they either wet their feet and then eventually go in to 4 inch depth -- or -- they alarm you by taking great flying leaps and launching in to the pond and getting a floating stick or what ever . You see confidence in jumping ditches . A confident dog opens up , nothing tight or inhibited . 
I purposely go to construction sites and see what natural challenges there are whether they are piles of pvc pipe, cement drainage , earth , wood pallets , rods of metal or cable .
I also go through heavy weeded areas . The pups can't see me , I can't see them. Beginnings of hunt and search.
I am quiet , don't call them in . I trust and respect that they have what they need to have to do the work. This also gives you insight to handler attentiveness , bonding . 

Carmen


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## robk

As I read through this thread with interest I started thinking about how I can test Ruger to see how he would react in some of these situations. I really wasn't sure where to take him so we took a walk to see what we could find. As we walked along we passed a pond down the road from our home. You really cannot tell from the picture but it is raining and the drainage grate is quite wet. It is also very noisy because the water is poring in on both sides. I really was not sure if he would be willing to go up on the grate but some geese came to watch us, probably hoping for a handout. Ruger climbed right up to get closer to the Geese. I was much more nervous than he was because I did not really feel like jumping into the lake if he slipped so I pulled him back before he got much further on. I am not really sure if this proves anything but it was an interesting experiment.


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