# Gun owner, my dog, scary situation



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

First, I take full responsibility for not 100% controlling my dog in this situation. My fault, my blame, and I will not let it happen again.

We were skijoring in a remote area (unlikely to see anyone), with four dogs. I had my husky hooked to me, the malinois was in harness but she and my shepherd were free running, my partner was well behind with his older dog.

We were moving at a pretty good clip, like 15 mph. I was just kind of enjoying the moment. There was a walker on the trail ahead of us but I didn't pay much attention. We pass people on trails ALL the time in busier areas with neutral behavior from all parties. As we approached, my malinois ran ahead a bit and barked at the guy a few times. I told her to come, and she immediately came and we went on by. I didn't think much of it. 

We got back to the parking lot and changed our skis out to head out on the more narrow trails for some slower ski touring. All the dogs were relaxed. The guy we passed came down the trail. An older guy.

I said hello, he said "your dog scared the  out of me".

I said, "I am so sorry, I called her right away, I didn't expect her to bark like that."

He said, "well, you're not the only one with a weapon out here," unzipped his jacket, and started to pull out a large revolver he had strapped to his chest. 

I was somewhat in shock. He was handling the gun. My dogs were 100% neutral- and playing with each other and there was absolutely no threat or inference of a threat from me (female, young, smaller). 

He said, "I was a second away from shooting your dog".

This was interesting since my dog maybe barked three times and as we ran by. The entire encounter took about three seconds or less.

I said, "she was barking, I know she shouldn't do that, and I don't let her bark at people, but she was a bit startled."

He said that she was showing her "fangs". That he knew dogs, that he had 50 stitches in his head from a dog, and 8 dogs at home, and that he knew she was serious. I understood he was afraid of dogs. I got all that. I honestly do have the dogs I have in part for deterrence of (human male) attackers. That said, they are not PPD and I don't need that. 

BUT BUT BUT, my goal with all my dogs is neutrality and 100% recall. Obviously, I dropped the ball here and it is MY fault my dog barked at the guy. Brief it may have been, reactive it may have been and so on, I am not making excuses.

What I take away from this is:

1. My dog needs more neutrality and OB training, we are not as far along as I had thought, despite numerous neutral encounters on more busy trails every day. 

2. If I see someone on the trail ahead, I need to "heel" my malinois and/or (until she is 100% with her OB) leash her until we are past the person. Even though she rarely reacts, she needs to understand that I make the decisions.

3. Keep practicing the recall. Under extreme distractions. 

4. I need to expect that people are carrying concealed, especially in rural areas. It is legal in this state.

5. My "small" (55 lb) dog is scary even though I don't see her that way very easily because she is so sweet with her family. Even more so because of the way she looks to people, I need 100% control over this dog. 

6. Huge wake up call. I love this dog and I need to not let her make her own decisions in these situations. I will leash for her until her OB is solid and consistent. 

So, I totally blame myself. Gave my girl a lot of loving last night, and was very happy I'd worked with her so much on recall that when I called her she came immediately. Kicked myself for not calling her to a heel before we passed the guy many times already. 

I'm still a bit in shock by the guy pulling a gun on me well after the barking incident and when my dogs were not acting remotely threatening. Took me a long time to settle down last night. 

It was like my worst nightmare. The last thing I want is my dog making me LESS safe than more safe. 

Just a warning to us all that we can never be too careful or have too much control over our dogs. With some dogs, you can NEVER be complacent. Time for me to do some really consistent training with this. I could have avoided this whole thing if I had just called her in when I first noticed the walker on the trail in front of us. 

I'm still reeling a bit. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Scary. Sounds like somebody you don't want to meet up with again, and I think your Malinois knew it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I applaud you for taking responsiblity for your dog's reactions. I also applaud you for taking steps to ensure that you keep your dog(s) safe. 

It only takes a moment. Just one single moment to change everything. I'm really happy that nothing serious came of this. Take a deep breath. 

One more thing....Boy! Does skijoring sound like fun!!! What a great way to spend time with your dogs!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I once was working out on a treadmill in our workout center at work. It faces windows. A guy snuck up behind me, grabbed my shoulder, and yelled, "boo!" Unfortunately, I was not the person he thought I was. But he scared the **** out of me, and my reactionary response was to say, "man, I just about punched you right in the face!"

Of course, that is so far from the truth! I was completely startled and caught off guard from it. There's no way, even if I wanted to, that I could have punched him in the face. It was just a heart-racing, adrenaline pumped response to being startled.

Moral of the story- we all say stupid things under stress, and I doubt the guy was _really_, in actuality, a second away from shooting your dog. Not to mention that in most states, to my knowledge, threatening you (or your property) by brandishing his weapon was completely illegal.

I think you just caught the guy off guard and he wanted to give you an earful. Lesson learned on your part.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> First, I take full responsibility for not 100% controlling my dog in this situation. My fault, my blame, and I will not let it happen again.
> 
> We were skijoring in a remote area (unlikely to see anyone), with four dogs. I had my husky hooked to me, the malinois was in harness but she and my shepherd were free running, my partner was well behind with his older dog.
> 
> ...


You probably saved your life/lives with being courteous to that jerk. I agree that your dog sensed it. Sounds like a guy who shouldn't have guns. I wish you peaceful snowy trails.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would call the police. 

Yes, you should have your dog leashed if she/he will bark at people, but dogs are dogs. They bark. They shouldn't be out there scaring people, and I think you got that. But no way should someone threaten you or your dogs with their gun. The guy is a jerk, and it may be a good thing if the police know that he is out there showing off his weapon and threatening people with it. 

I actually approve with concealed carry. We have it my state too. Gun enthusiasts do not like people being idiots with the privilege.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

That is really scary with the guy actually getting his gun out. Here it would be considered illegal to threaten a person like that - after you had already controlled your dog and was speaking to him especially. I know you take full responsibility for it all and I applaud your attitude but don't worry yourself too much. Your dog knew the guy was a cookie short of a dozen I think and reacted appropriately for what he felt. It's great you have such a solid recall. I shudder to think what could have happened. I do carry concealed but my number 1 rule is never take out that gun unless I plan to fire it. I do not believe in threatening people. There are some people out there that should not have concealed permits. Glad it turned out okay. Now about that skijoring - sounds like fun but we have no snow.


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## deldridge72 (Oct 25, 2011)

Canines are an excellent judge of character . . . . .


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

Sounded a bit over the top to display it (did he display, or actually point it? If he pointed it, that's ridiculous), but from the guys perspective, it may be hard to determine the dog's intent/past/background. Guess I'm playing devils advocate. Good to hear that's as far as it went and lesson learned without any serious repercussions.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

What an ass hat, it may very well have actually been illegal for him to brandish his firearm especially if he took it out of the holster.

I'm pro 2a and pro ccw but very anti abusing those rights.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

is it worth re-training yr dog for the unlikely occurrence that you will meet two complete nutters in the dog's lifetime. dogs bark - nothing gorundshattering there. did yr dog strain at the end of the leash snarling at the guy?, did it chase the guy up a tree just missing him with its fangs? i would not re-wire yr dog over this, jmo.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

pyratemom said:


> That is really scary with the guy actually getting his gun out. Here it would be considered illegal to threaten a person like that - after you had already controlled your dog and was speaking to him especially. I know you take full responsibility for it all and I applaud your attitude but don't worry yourself too much. Your dog knew the guy was a cookie short of a dozen I think and reacted appropriately for what he felt. It's great you have such a solid recall. I shudder to think what could have happened. I do carry concealed but my number 1 rule is never take out that gun unless I plan to fire it. I do not believe in threatening people. There are some people out there that should not have concealed permits. Glad it turned out okay. Now about that skijoring - sounds like fun but we have no snow.


^This is very well said! I think Teri has the right perspective on this. It seems quite irresponsible to brandish a deadly weapon, even if you have no intent of using it. I mean, I have come close to pepper spraying a dog and then didn't have to because the owner regained control, but I have never waved the canister in the owner's face afterward. And that's not even a deadly weapon.

I think your plan for training sound excellent, and try not to be too hard on yourself. The man overreacted. For someone who claims to have 8 dogs, you would think he would be a bit less afraid of them, no matter what his history with being bitten is.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Report this guy.

It is not illegal for a dog to bark at someone three times. If Your dog would have done that to me, I would have spoken to the dog, not come unglued. 

That guy threatened you. Showing you his gun was a threat. It is NOT legal to flash a gun at someone in order to intimidate them.

I respect your desire to make sure your dogs are good citizens. However, I wonder what this guy might have done had you NOT had your dogs with you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x11 said:


> is it worth re-training yr dog for the unlikely occurrence that you will meet two complete nutters in the dog's lifetime. dogs bark - nothing gorundshattering there. did yr dog strain at the end of the leash snarling at the guy?, did it chase the guy up a tree just missing him with its fangs? i would not re-wire yr dog over this, jmo.


My understanding was that the dog was off-leash? And the dog running and barking, that can be scary, especially for someone who has had a serious dog bite. The fact that the guy has been bitten seriously makes him all the more likely to be bitten again. This could be because his own actions might make dogs more reactive in the first place, or his fear of dogs since his bite might make dogs more apprehensive of him. Either way, a dog running loose and barking in such a manner that it is directed toward a stranger, is cause for that stranger to comment or expect an apology. 

This yayhoo went overboard though. 

And, sometimes we think we got our dogs at the next level, and then they surprise us, and we have to take them back a few steps and work more with them. If we are running radio-controlled cars, we could have a 100% certainty what reaction will follow each action. But with living creatures we cannot ever achieve 100%. I personally do not think that the answer is to always keep every dog muzzled, caged, or tethered to us. I think at some point, when we are in the high nineties, a part of our training can be off-lead work around other people.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Did the guy threaten you with the gun or just take it out? Point it at you, for example?

I too would feel threatened by a dog running at me barking. Wouldn't let them get too close before some reaction is needed on my part. If you do let them get too close might mean a bite.

*Maybe a leash is the answer -* so you do have control of your dog and the other folks can see that.

I don't know about others, but I assume that an off lead dog is out of their owners control (based on my experience!) until proven otherwise.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i missed the off-leash bit, i thought they were pulling a sled or something. my bad.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

selzer said:


> I would call the police.
> 
> I actually approve with concealed carry. We have it my state too. *Gun enthusiasts do not like people being idiots with the privilege.*


Couldn't agree more.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> And, sometimes we think we got our dogs at the next level, and then they surprise us, and we have to take them back a few steps and work more with them.


So true. 
Yesterday I read about a Malinois K9 who got run over by a car because he ran into traffic when the officer let him out of the patrol car for a break.

I may be overly cautious, but I don't see ever being able to let Hans go offleash, no matter what. He is an animal, and they simply don't reason. They can be highly trained and they can learn a lot, and they can amaze us with their intelligence and capabilities, but at the end of the day, they are still animals ruled by drives and instinct.

The person you ran into was trying to get even and scare you because your dog scared him. If the incident happened as you say, in a run by, there was no need for him to say and do what he did. 

I don't believe he has 8 dogs. Actually, I hope he doesn't. 

I'm sure your Mal barked at him because she got the creep vibe. 

Hope you don't run into this guy again, and I am glad nothing really bad happened.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks for the responses, I was afraid I might be lambasted for letting my dog bark at someone- I have already beaten myself up over that again and again.

I think it is worth training for 100% (or as close as possible) control over my malinois. She is a strong dog with a bit of reactivity which is normal for the breed but not something to take lightly. People also carry guns when hiking, for bear protection. There is no reason I should risk this happening again and not being so lucky. If we turn a corner on a trail and encounter someone acting strangely unexpectedly, I still want to have a 100% recall on my dog. She may have been reacting to the guy being sketchy, but doing so made me less safe, not more. I need to be able to control her in this type of situation.

Skijoring is really fun- I will post a recent video. We haven't had much snow in town yet, which is why we travelled to the remote area to skijor. I don't think I'll be going there again anytime soon.

The guy pulled the gun out of his chest holster but didn't point it at me. This was during the conversation post-encounter. That was enough to shake me up pretty good.

I think half of the problem was that we startled him. He was walking along on a remote trail and was suddenly being barked at. Had I called out, etc. he may not have had quite as severe a reaction. I have been yelled at when skijoring for passing someone too fast- even though I have bells on the dogs' harnesses and also yell out when I see someone to let them know I am coming by. And this is when the dogs do nothing wrong and just pull silently in harness. So, trail-user conflict was probably part of it. Those can get ugly even without a barking dog being involved.

Also, my malinois looks scary when barking- her teeth are very white, she has a black face and muzzle, she has pointy ears. She looks like a typical vision of a vicious police dog. She never charged the guy or remotely tried to bite him, but she was trying to look scary, I'm sure, and apparently succeeded. 

I'm still feeling shaken up, but it is always good to have motivation to get out and train, especially at 0 degrees F.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think the dog sensed something too. I don't think that barking a few times at someone would constitute that person pulling a gun. It scares me to think how many crazy people are allowed to have guns if this guy is allowed:crazy: I'm happy that everything turned out okay


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I do use leashes in many areas especially during training. However, I trail run and mountain run a lot in places where we are unlikely to see anyone and where the dogs really enjoy sniffing about and being dogs. In some areas, leashes for all three dogs would be impractical if not unsafe. So, my goal is off leash reliability. I thought we were there, or at least well past the 90% stage, but apparently I still have work to do. That, and my being more proactive with reigning the dog in when I first see someone ahead of us.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hi there,

I am sorry that this scary thing happened. That would really shake me up too. I like to off leash walking and hiking with Rafi too. He has an excellent recall but, because of past experiences with my dogs and people and other dogs, he is trained to stay by my side when we see a person or a dog, until I release him. I trained a "Back" (get behind me) and a "Stay with me" command and use one or both of those when we see other people or dogs when he's off leash. He has learned it so well now that he will drop back on his own.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No need to beat yourself up.

Show me someone who says they have never had an incident with their dog, and I will show you someone in denial 

Keep training, keep doing what you are doing, and enjoy the great outdoors you have over there, even if Alaska does attract its share of kooks. 

(I can say that, because Florida attracts them, too )


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Muskeg, if I was you I would have _Eddie Haskeled_ the guy to death and the moment he turned his back, I would have called the police. In fact, I think you still should because this guy sounds like a accident waiting to happen. Had he pulled his gun while it was happening or if he said, he was armed and taped on his weapon that might have been a little different. (that could maybe be taken as some unfriendly advice) But displaying a gun in the manner you describe, is reckless conduct. 

I worked in a gun shop before and have seen people like him, people who hope someone will give them a reason (even if it's their own minds) to use their guns. I mean they do stuff like leave their doors unlocked, hoping someone will brake in. Also to be considered, he might have been out stalking someone or is just a plain nut.

Regardless of what set the event in motion, I think you should report the incident to the proper authorities. You might save someones life.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Packman is right: No responsible gun owner behaves like that and this guy is looking for a reason to shoot at something or someone so he can feel more manly. 

(As if being able to pull the trigger on a handgun is MANLY. I'm fat, female, and 52 and I can pull a trigger just fine. And since I'm not all worried about looking macho, my plain old shotgun would easily take out any idiot brandishing a pistol. Guns aren't for posing or waving around. They're for making meat out of something alive.)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

to the OP. disregard this La-La land, Disney point of view.
you were threaten with a gun.



wildo said:


> >>>>> Moral of the story- we all say stupid things under stress, and I doubt the guy was _really_, in actuality, a second away from shooting your dog. Not to mention that in most states, to my knowledge, threatening you (or your property) by brandishing his weapon was completely illegal.
> 
> I think you just caught the guy off guard and he wanted to give you an earful. <<<<<
> 
> Lesson learned on your part.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so your dog barked. you called your dog and your dog came to
you immediately. that's well trained. you see the guy later
and your dogs ignored the guy. he was flat out wrong for showing
you his gun. if the samething happened to in the manner you
described it. when he showed me his gun i would have shot him.
end of threat. definitely report what happened.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Disney land point of view? Keep dreaming. When people are startled, they say stupid things. And like I said, you even quoted, brandishing is illegal. Nothing la-la Disney about that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wildo said:


> Disney land point of view? Keep dreaming. When people are startled, they say stupid things. And like I said, you even quoted, brandishing is illegal. Nothing la-la Disney about that.


When stupid people let their gun do their stupid talking they are an accident waiting to happen. If you want to carry a gun, then you have to have a measure of self-control. Showing people your gun and telling them that you would have shot their dog, should be enough to get that conceal-carry permit suspended. Being stupid with guns is like raising stupid to a power ie. stupid squared.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Where did I say I disagreed with that, Selzer? They guy was "one second from shooting the dog?" BS. If that was true, the gun would have been drawn, aimed, and finger on the trigger when the dog first barked. No... this was just an idiot who was startled by the dog and had a few mins to stew about it while walking up to them later in the parking lot (or wherever the ski change happened). The fact that he brandished his weapon was wrong and illegal, as I said in my first response.

This guy was a moron who wanted to pull a power trip and give the OP an earful. Nothing more. Both people and all dogs got to walk away alive. That's probably a good thing.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

wildo said:


> Disney land point of view? Keep dreaming. When people are startled, they say stupid things. And like I said, you even quoted, brandishing is illegal. Nothing la-la Disney about that.


He wasn't startled when he walked up to her a while after the (non) event and brandished his weapon. 

At that point, imo, he was attempting to provoke so he could retaliate. Being a few bales short of a full load and having a deadly weapon readily available is a disaster waiting to happen, again imo.

I would report the incident. I might have to face some action myself, possibly a fine for violating leash laws, but this was dangerous enough behavior on his part that I would stand in and take it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I totally agree the guy is a loose cannon. Your dog did nothing a million other dogs haven't done and unless the guy has NEVER walked a trail like that before, this is not the first time he's been barked at, let's face it. We ALL have encountered dogs just like that. He's a freak, and wanted to show off, much like arsonists watch their fires, or murderers often show up at victim's funerals. 

Report him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wildo said:


> Where did I say I disagreed with that, Selzer? They guy was "one second from shooting the dog?" BS. If that was true, the gun would have been drawn, aimed, and finger on the trigger when the dog first barked. No... this was just an idiot who was startled by the dog and had a few mins to stew about it while walking up to them later in the parking lot (or wherever the ski change happened). The fact that he brandished his weapon was wrong and illegal, as I said in my first response.
> 
> This guy was a moron who wanted to pull a power trip and give the OP an earful. Nothing more. Both people and all dogs got to walk away alive. That's probably a good thing.


Back several decades ago when I was seventeen, I was in our used book shop in the middle of the night with my sister, taking a break after putting together a bunch of book shelves. An auxiliary cop came in, and I started walking out of the back room and right into the guy. We startled each other. I said, "you scared the shtuff out of me!" (only I didn't say "shtuff.") He said that he usually would have came in with his gun drawn. Both of our responses were from being startled. By the time he made his response, I had enough presence of mind to NOT ask, "They let you carry a gun?" (Small town, and this auxiliary cop was 18 -- he told me that later that night, when he was asking me about my sister -- yeah TMI.)

Anyhow, by the time this guy got down to the parking lot, startle-response was long gone. What was going on, was the product of stewing about someone having a good time with their dogs, and just having to show someone that he was ready to shoot something. There is nothing wrong with getting angry about something, nothing wrong with saying something about it. But this wasn't a startle-response. This guy went a step farther, and used his gun to let the other person know how angry he was. That is not enough inhibition going on, there -- scary.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

to be honest, he probably would've shot your dog even if she weren't barking. people are just dumb, and as many other have mentioned, trigger happy.

good dog for warning you of this creep. i do not believe you did anything wrong. if we're out offleash on a trail and come across a person, i call my dogs back to me, leash em, get off the trail and then encourage them to bark. no one should be approaching me on a remote trail anyways. not there looking for friends or long conversations, just move along now.

i applaud you though, for recognizing this as a potential problem and your eagerness to act on it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> My understanding was that the dog was off-leash? And the dog running and barking, that can be scary, especially for someone who has had a serious dog bite. The fact that the guy has been bitten seriously makes him all the more likely to be bitten again. This could be because his own actions might make dogs more reactive in the first place, or his fear of dogs since his bite might make dogs more apprehensive of him. Either way, a dog running loose and barking in such a manner that it is directed toward a stranger, is cause for that stranger to comment or expect an apology.
> 
> This yayhoo went overboard though.
> 
> And, sometimes we think we got our dogs at the next level, and then they surprise us, and we have to take them back a few steps and work more with them. If we are running radio-controlled cars, we could have a 100% certainty what reaction will follow each action. But with living creatures we cannot ever achieve 100%. I personally do not think that the answer is to always keep every dog muzzled, caged, or tethered to us. I think at some point, when we are in the high nineties, a part of our training can be off-lead work around other people.


Unless the dog is HA (just my opinion)! Then no off leash where there is a chance of other people around!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Muneraven said:


> Report this guy.
> 
> It is not illegal for a dog to bark at someone three times. If Your dog would have done that to me, I would have spoken to the dog, not come unglued.
> 
> ...


I think that I missed something - what exactly did the guy do?

I thought he just showed a pistol that he had. Did he carry it illegally? That is, no permit? Then by all means, report him to a police officer. Or if he threatened the OP by pointing it or saying something like I will shoot you.

Did the guy say/do these things? Or maybe even worse?

I must have missed it in the thread.

BTW, isn't a barking charging dog considered a threat? 

Did the OP ever say how close the dog was to the guy before she got any control back over the dog?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> The guy pulled the gun out of his chest holster but didn't point it at me.


Why would someone remove their gun from the holster? Unless they were going to use it? The only other reason I can think of is to intimidate someone. He could have just said, "Hey, your dog scared the crap out of me, and I'm armed to protect myself - you should be more careful next time." He didn't have to show his firearm. And even if he did want to prove that he wasn't making up a story, just opening up his jacket to show the holster would be enough. This guy sounds like a jerk to me.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

This is hilarious:



> As if being able to pull the trigger on a handgun is MANLY. I'm fat, female, and 52 and I can pull a trigger just fine. And since I'm not all worried about looking macho, my plain old shotgun would easily take out any idiot brandishing a pistol. Guns aren't for posing or waving around.


Had it been me I'd have peed my pants LOL ... But, I'm Canadian, and we don't see that many guns! LOL (Ha, I think the only time I've seen a gun is on a cop ... hmmm ... yup, pretty sure that's it!)

I don't know your gun laws, everyone else seems to know them - which is good! But I don't think you or your dogs did anything wrong. 

My friend and I walk our dogs all the time in the woods / hills, etc. and they are off leash. Plenty of times they have barked to "alert" us that someone is there. We always call them back (just like you did!) and they came (just like your's did). We'll put them in a sit / stay beside us and then we have a laugh about how our dogs "startled" them. 99% of the time we get major compliments on how well trained our dogs are. 

AND ... we've even had comments like: well, out here, you'd want a dog to be on the look out for you ... 

I think you just ran into an idiot, and I'm happy that you are able to post about it, and that nothing happened to you and your dogs.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> We got back to the parking lot and changed our skis out to head out on the more narrow trails for some slower ski touring. All the dogs were relaxed. The guy we passed came down the trail. *An older guy*.
> 
> I said hello, he said "*your dog scared the  out of me*".
> 
> ...


Ok - this is strictly the opinion of an 'older' person. I can see my husband doing the same thing to the OP if he was charged by a dog and startled. I don't know the extent of 'handling' the gun the guy in this thread did. My husband would not have taken out his pistol, and I doubt he would have even shown it to the OP. There isn't the need to. 

However, my husband (being an older man, and father) would have gone to the OP and scolded her for allowing the dog to charge strangers. He would have made the point that people carry weapons and the situation could have turned out very bad for her dog. 

One time he stopped and changed the tire for a car full of young girls late one night. He scolded them the entire time he was doing it. He also made the driver call her parents and let them know what was happening. They showed up before he was finished. 

If the guy pulled out his weapon, actually unholstered it, and the OP felt threatened, then he took it too far. I agree. I would create a report.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lilie said:


> Ok - this is strictly the opinion of an 'older' person. I can see my husband doing the same thing to the OP if he was charged by a dog and startled. I don't know the extent of 'handling' the gun the guy in this thread did. My husband would not have taken out his pistol, and I doubt he would have even shown it to the OP. There isn't the need to.
> 
> However, my husband (being an older man, and father) would have gone to the OP and scolded her for allowing the dog to charge strangers. He would have made the point that people carry weapons and the situation could have turned out very bad for her dog.
> 
> ...


I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


Probably because this is a dog forum, not a gun forum.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

> Probably because this is a dog forum, not a gun forum


Probably! 

I would certainly feel much more threatened if someone waved / showed a gun at me, than if a dog was charging me. WHY? I'm more experienced around dogs than guns, or people with guns, or even crazy people with guns LOL

As for a dog running towards me if I was in the middle of nowhere? I'd simply stop walking - no use in giving the dog a reason to chase me. Likely, I'd hear someone call out for their dog (as the OP did). If it didn't go back, I still wouldn't move. I'd wait for the owner to come over. 

I'm sure it's happened, but the odds of a dog out walking with it's owner running up and charging and barking and then flat out attacking me? I'd go with those odds than a person waving a gun at me. 

But, that's just me!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


He did have a right to feel threatened. 

What he did not have a right to do is go up to the OP well after the incident and brandish a weapon.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I read page one and not all the posts in between. 

Doesn't sound like he drew it at you, so I'm not sure why you were shaken up other than the fact that your dog could have been shot? I had a friend recently come over to my house, he has a concealed weapons permit. I didn't know, didn't ask, didn't bother me. We started talking guns and he pulled his from his chest holster to show me without warning(I had no idea he carried or owned it at the time); nothing wrong with having a gun around as long as it's not pointed at me! 

I may wrongly assume in this situation that it is not an area where dogs are supposed to be off leash? Either way really, a dog charging a man barking gives way for him to interpret it as he wants.

He could have easily told you he was carrying and let that be that, in most places while it is frowned upon, it is legal to disclose and show? a concealed weapon that you're legally carrying. Perhaps he hoped that showing you would make you realize how close you were. Either way he was in no wrong letting you know he had it.

I am taking a CCW class this winter and I'll be getting my permit when I turn 21. I would certainly use it in the same case if a dog was running at me in what I interpreted as aggressive had the dog not responded to a recall. Likely, that's all that saved your mal in this case.

Not sure why the opinion is that this man shouldn't own/carry a gun, sounds like it could have almost "saved" him.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


Other than the guy showing how irresponsible he was - guns can do damage from a distance. A dog must make contact to cause injuries. When he showed the gun and made the statement about shooting the dog the entire incident with the dog was over. He made it a point to find them in the parking lot and make the threat. That to me is more threatening than a dog barking. A person who thinks waving a gun around to make threats, whether he actually intends to use the gun or not,is a good thing is not only irresponsible on his part but rather stupid besides. Another crazy person with a gun could have responded by shooting him. Then we would have a whole other mess. My point is he should never have even shown the gun. He was not in danger and the law here would consider him even doing what he did an assault.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

SOOO ... I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'm confused ... 

Some people on here get absolutely livid that a police officer shoots a dog that is charging them ... but most people on this thread are agreeing that they "might" shoot the dog if it charged them ... 

What's the difference? A charging dog is still a charging dog ... 

Or is the difference in the people who get mad at the police officer, not the same people who would "shoot" the charging dog?


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

People just do weird things in the mountains. I have seen just plain weirdness on so many occassions during camping and hiking excursions that it can't be dismissed. People do stuff that they wouldn't do in town, referring to the brandishing of a gun. Showing a gun is plain illegal in the manor that guy did. Your dog sounds pretty reasonable if it barks but comes when you call it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


I'm not sure what the laws are in the OP's area regarding dangerous dogs - or dogs that are deemed dangerous regarding a specific incident (charging the guy). 

But I'm pretty sure it's universal that if you have a license to carry a concealed weapon, and you pull the weapon (after the threat is no longer apparent) you could lose your license. 

The guy DID have the right to feel threatened. I feel he would have had the right to shoot the dog had the OP failed to call her dog off (if he were in fear for his life). Again, I don't know the satues in her area so legally it could go one way or the other. 

He would not have been justified had he pulled out his weapon and waved it around, or pointed it at the dog..after the fact. If he had searched for the 'threat' with the mindset to simply threaten the OP, then he jumped over the line. If he went to the OP to let her know how close the dog came to being shot, and kept his gun holstered (or in his pocket or where ever he carries) then (to me) it's simply a scolding. Justified or not.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Legally it was brandishing and depending up the state and the location within the state (state/local/national park, school area, etc) the fines (and possibly even jail time) vary. 

This even applies in open carry states. Disclosing a weapon with the intent to intimidate when one is not under imminent threat is illegal as well as grossly irresponsible and foolish.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Kyleigh said:


> SOOO ... I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'm confused ...
> 
> Some people on here get absolutely livid that a police officer shoots a dog that is charging them ... but most people on this thread are agreeing that they "might" shoot the dog if it charged them ...
> 
> ...


I don't think they are the same people. I would not shoot a dog. I don't think police should shoot dogs unless they are actually in danger either. There are other ways to fend off a charging dog - pepper spray for instance.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Kyleigh said:


> SOOO ... I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'm confused ...
> 
> Some people on here get absolutely livid that a police officer shoots a dog that is charging them ... but most people on this thread are agreeing that they "might" shoot the dog if it charged them ...
> 
> ...


The difference is that usually the police are wrongly in an area with the dog or the dog is NOT acting aggressively and they shoot/kill without giving owners a chance to contain the dog.

If I were out walking a trail and a dog came barking and growling at me, the owner couldn't call it off, and I was in fear that it was going to attack me, yes, I would shoot it. I'd give the owner a chance though. If I was running through someone elses yard illegally/wrongly for any reason and the dog in their yard tried doing the same; no, I would probably be attacked before I shot a dog for doing what dogs do.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Kyleigh said:


> Probably!
> 
> I would certainly feel much more threatened if someone waved / showed a gun at me, than if a dog was charging me. WHY? I'm more experienced around dogs than guns, or people with guns, or even crazy people with guns LOL
> 
> ...


 
*You must live in a very interesting neighborhood if you are that much more likely to have a gun waved at you than have a dog come barking at you! WOW!*

I have had a number of dogs come running to me barking but NEVER anyone waving a gun at me! (Thankfully!)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hate guns. First, I would have been terrified...and then I would have been furious. The dog recalled immediately so no reason to start making threats at you. I would have called the police.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

No, you misunderstood my sentence (Or I wasn't clear enough) 

What I meant was this: Sure there have been people attacked by dogs ... but the odds of being out on a walk and a dog just randomly coming up and flat out attacking ??? REALLY? Sure, the dog charges, hackles are up, barks. 

For the experienced dog owners, you know what to do. YOU STOP ... 

I live in Canada ... people don't carry guns around here (Ok, the criminals do, but they sure as heck aren't about to advertise it). I've been charged, barked at, and yes, had a dog circle me. I never got bit, I never got attacked. 

I had to use my knowledge, experience with dogs to read the dog - and wait for the owner to arrive. 

That's why I said I'd go with the odds of having a dog ATTACK (not charge / bark) than someone waving a gun at me (because I wouldn't see that in my neighbourhood). The odds of both incidences are super low.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?


It was perfectly OK for both to feel threatened.



wildo; said:


> Probably because this is a dog forum, not a gun forum.


Not so much. The issue is that you can't wait for the fireworks to be over and some time after the fact decide to fix somebody's wagon by showing or using your gun. Do you realize that in most (maybe all?) states that allow concealed carry, it is illegal to even allow the gun to make a tell-tale imprint on your clothing, let alone take it out and show it to someone? Open carry is a whole different thing (and usually means you can't legally conceal the weapon unless you also have a CHL), but even then it is illegal to even hint at threatening someone with it.

It would have been OK if the man had drawn his gun and pointed it at the dog barking and running toward him. It would have been an over-reaction, but I think he had some basis for feeling the dog was threatening him and that he might need to protect himself. Revealing he had a gun and was willing to use it after the fact? No way.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

Glad you are okay, that was a scary situation! Maybe you should carry when you are out there in secluded areas. My first thought is that your dog was no match for that crazy man should the need have arose (and not saying your dog should have had to protect you). People I know who carry concealed, well their guns stay concealed. No need to flash them. He has a screw loose.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> The guy we passed came down the trail. An older guy.
> 
> I said hello, he said "your dog scared the  out of me".
> 
> ...


Maybe he wasn't making a threat with the gun? He didn't point it at anyone (not the OP and not the dog). Maybe he showed it to the OP as a way to show how badly it could have ended. I see his behavior as saying, "Hey, your dog scared me and you should be aware that there are people out here that are armed. I was that close to shooting your dog. Maybe you shouldn't let your dog run up and bark at people out here".

We have had a couple of incidents here in my area where dogs have been shot for just this type of behavior. 
Sheilah


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

sit said:


> Maybe he wasn't making a threat with the gun? He didn't point it at anyone (not the OP and not the dog). Maybe he showed it to the OP as a way to show how badly it could have ended. I see his behavior as saying, "Hey, your dog scared me and you should be aware that there are people out here that are armed. I was that close to shooting your dog. Maybe you shouldn't let your dog run up and bark at people out here".
> 
> We have had a couple of incidents here in my area where dogs have been shot for just this type of behavior.
> Sheilah


It's possible that's what he thought he was doing, but what he did was illegal, regardless, and if he went to any half-way decent CHL class that point should have been hammered home repeatedly. When you carry concealed, the only time anyone should know you have a gun is when you are drawing your gun to protect yourself or another. You don't talk about it, you don't show it. You certainly don't deliver a caution or warning with it in your hand because anyone with half a brain cell is going to think you intend it as a threat.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Interesting discussion. I readily admit my dog should not be barking at people and should be able to be called off immediately if she does so. Were I to do this whole thing over again, I would have called her as soon as I saw the walker. But she does not normally bark at people on trails (she will react more strongly to other dogs) and I was kind of in a skijor mindset. So, my fault for allowing my dog to startle the man.

That said, I, too have been charged and barked at by all number of dogs on the trails. Especially when skijoring (chase and prey drive kick in). 100% of the time, the dogs are not out to attack or hurt me or my dogs- in my experience. People, including myself, do not allow a dog that would actually attack and bite someone off leash on public-use trails. 

Now, this area we were in when the incident happened is indeed "rural" and there is certainly a different vibe out there. We are much less likely to encounter anyone who shoots first and asks questions later in the city. People here are used to dogs- people are generally not afraid of dogs. Does this mean I should let my dog do her scary barking display at people around here? Certainly not, but this is a more urban area with less of a cowboy culture. The end of the roaders out in rural Alaska are not known for their sunny personalities.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Kyleigh- I agree with you- I would much rather be charged by a barking dog (happens weekly) than have a gun brandished at me (has never happened before). I think my odds are very good that a barking dog does not intend to kill me or even bite me (has never happened in now 16 plus years of encountering dogs on trails and roads daily)- while a gun just takes a pull on the trigger to cause deadly and un-reversible damage. 


A dog that will actually bite a random person with intent to do serious harm- that is rare. 


We do not have a "leash" law in town. We do have animal under voice control mandates and animal menace laws. Arguably, a barking dog is menacing. I asked animal control about this, they said that as long as the barking dog is near the owner and under voice control it is considered a service animal (doing its job) and is not breaking the law. 

What do you think? Is is ever appropriate for a dog to bark at someone on public trails (off leash)? Does it depend on what the dog looks like? We all have shepherds on this forum and my GSD can look scary. But my malinois can look scarier. Certainly people think she looks scary even when she is not doing anything remotely aggressive- I think it's the black face and her very white teeth. I think that certainly plays a role in how a dog's actions are perceived. 

Regardless, as I stated before, I am training for neutrality and 100% recall. A real solid recall takes care of almost any situation. My intention is to live and let live when I go running/skijoring/hiking. I don't want to bother anyone and I don't want them to bother me. 

I do not feel the need for a gun- but I do have my dogs for deterrence. From both four footed and two-footed predators. But, like I said, my mali barking in this manner can make me less safe, not more safe, and I need to train and be proactive in a way so that doesn't happen again.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

stealthq said:


> It's possible that's what he thought he was doing, but what he did was illegal, regardless, and if he went to any half-way decent CHL class that point should have been hammered home repeatedly. When you carry concealed, the only time anyone should know you have a gun is when you are drawing your gun to protect yourself or another. You don't talk about it, you don't show it. You certainly don't deliver a caution or warning with it in your hand because anyone with half a brain cell is going to think you intend it as a threat.


There is no concealed carry permit needed in Alaska, so no class is required. Anyone who can legally own a gun in that state can carry it, concealed or open. Although jurisdictions vary (federal property would be exempt, I would think). 

Hopefully the OP learned a lesson about allowing dogs off leash, and maybe the gentleman who had the gun considered his actions in hindsight and learned something as well. 
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> A dog that will actually bite a random person with intent to do serious harm- that is rare.
> 
> What do you think? Is is ever appropriate for a dog to bark at someone on public trails (off leash)? Does it depend on what the dog looks like?


Not every person you come across is going to know that a random bite is rare, though. Regardless of how much experience they might claim in the moment! 

I don't think it is ever appropriate for a dog to randomly bark at anyone or anything while out in the community. And unless I have asked for the dog to bark, I would consider any barking to be random. I don't allow my German Shepherd Dog to do it. I don't allow my Australian Shepherd to do and I don't allow my Pug to do it. 
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyleigh said:


> SOOO ... I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'm confused ...
> 
> Some people on here get absolutely livid that a police officer shoots a dog that is charging them ... but most people on this thread are agreeing that they "might" shoot the dog if it charged them ...
> 
> ...


We are all dog enthusiasts. Some are also gun enthusiasts. SOME of the gun enthusiasts, like to think about how they WOULD protect themselves or their families with their gun, against a dog or a human. Now I would guess that most of us do not carry guns, and therefore when dogs charge at us, we need to respond to the situation without pulling out a non-existent firearm and blasting away. It is really pretty amazing that so many of us have made it to whatever age we are. 

Now, I suppose it could be that SOME of the most of us that do not carry a gun with us everywhere we go, think that if we can handle a dog situation without pulling out a gun and shooting the dog, then maybe police officers should be able to do so too. I think that even most of these think that if the dog is charging, the cop is on legitimate buisness and the dog is not behind a fence in his owner's yard, well most of us do chalk it up to the dog having a poor excuse for an owner. If the dog is in a DOG park PLAYING and the cop is there with his PET on a leash and feels the need to shoot and kill the dog, or if the dog is within a fenced yard doing its job at a house the police are not even interested in, well, it is a dog forum and yes we will get hot about it, because we see people doing what any of us might do and these people get their dog shot. If the person or dog is out of bounds, then we might feel bad, but most of us are not out to beat up on the police for killing the dog. Most of us. Just an opinion.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If a dog charges at me (or at my dog) and is clearly seriously aggressive about it; then too bad what happens to him/her. Self defense and all that sort of stuff!

Where I grew up in the city - if you started a fight, then if you got the worst of it it, too bad - your fault!

And just a hint to you folks who think that a puffed up stance and a loud "BOO" is sufficient to protect you and your dog - please realize this for you and your dog's safety - 
*YOU JUST HAVE NOT MET THE RIGHT (WRONG?) DOG YET!*

*Not every dog out there will turn tail and run based on a "yell" from you!*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> If a dog charges at me (or at my dog) and is clearly seriously aggressive about it; then too bad what happens to him/her. Self defense and all that sort of stuff!
> 
> Where I grew up in the city - if you started a fight, then if you got the worst of it it, too bad - your fault!
> 
> ...


As I have said, it is amazing that so many of us have made it to whatever age we are without carrying around lethal weapons. It's really funny that in many countries, that just isn't an option, and dogs are not eating people left and right.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> As I have said, it is amazing that so many of us have made it to whatever age we are without carrying around lethal weapons. It's really funny that in many countries, that just isn't an option, and dogs are not eating people left and right.


 
How many dog bites are there in the US? For me, I am concerned about myself and mine not statistics - only takes one overly aggressive dog to bite me or my family.

Got to be ready - don't need a gun anyway, club will work just fine.

BTW, how "many of us" have NOT made it, but instead have gotten bitten by a dog?

Ever got bit?, it hurts!

Besides I don't care about what other countries do, I live in th US.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> How many dog bites are there in the US? For me, I am concerned about myself and mine not statistics - only takes one overly aggressive dog to bite me or my family.
> 
> Got to be ready - don't need a gun anyway, club will work just fine.
> 
> ...


The majority of reported dog bites are to children, and generally to children living in the home with the dog. There really aren't that many dogs running around taking chunks out of strangers. It simply isn't that common. The reason you hear about it, is because it is news, it is out of the ordinary. 

I have never been bitten by a dog that I did not know in some way or was not asked to take care of. 

Yes I have been bitten. I was bitten by my friend's newfoundland when I was about 11, still have the scar. I was bitten numerous times by a poodle on my paper route. I hated that dog, and the feeling was obviously mutual. I was bitten by a couple of dogs that I tried to care for, for their owners when they were out of town. I was bitten by my own dogs, usually accidents breaking up fights. Two of them were serious bites, one taking 18 months to heal completely as it was in my calf and it was a huge bite. Another was pretty awesome on my hand. Yeah it hurts. But again, these were all dogs I knew in some way, and none of them would I have shot or clubbed. Well, maybe the poodle. 

I just cannot imagine walking through life worried about getting bitten by a dog. I may as well go around worrying about getting struck by lightning.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> The majority of reported dog bites are to children, and generally to children living in the home with the dog. There really aren't that many dogs running around taking chunks out of strangers. It simply isn't that common. The reason you hear about it, is because it is news, it is out of the ordinary.
> 
> I have never been bitten by a dog that I did not know in some way or was not asked to take care of.
> 
> ...


*selzer, gotcha!*


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*This thread is starting to walk the line of becoming political. Please stay on topic of what was a scary situation for the OP and how they may avoid this situation or worse in the future.*

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I hate guns. First, I would have been terrified...and then I would have been furious. The dog recalled immediately so no reason to start making threats at you. I would have called the police.


I'm sorry, did the OP say that he threatened anywhere? I did not read his dialogue the way so many people here are taking it. 

I felt like he just let her know in too open of a way that he was going to shoot the dog had it not turned around so she should really be careful of her dog's actions... That's not a threat at all, just letting her know for her dog's sake.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm sorry, did the OP say that he threatened anywhere? I did not read his dialogue the way so many people here are taking it.
> 
> I felt like he just let her know in too open of a way that he was going to shoot the dog had it not turned around so she should really be careful of her dog's actions... That's not a threat at all, just letting her know for her dog's sake.


No, telling someone you have a gun and could have shot their dog is telling it like it is. Showing someone the gun is taking it a step farther. I would have reported the guy. 

Ihczth, I really cannot see how this is getting political, can you PM me what it is in this thread that is political and not dog-related, because I am confused.


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## empem90 (May 6, 2012)

This is late coming in but yeah that is an unnerving situation that apparently could have ended worse. Sounds like you have pretty good recall with your dog. Personally, more training could be in order, but it sounds like you have good base of training. My thought is that they still are dogs and they do have a mind of their own so no matter what amount of training there is still the possibility of them doing something like yours had done, when they are off leash and someone comes along unexpectedly. Personally I think the guy way over-reacted, but its hard to say without being there.

Also, to DJEtzel and Selzer, personally having recieved my CCW in Indiana and spending large amounts of time studying Indiana law and speakingwith the local sheriff many times. It has been my understanding that he should not have even said he would have shot the dog and by him showing and starting to pull the gun out in what at that time was a "neutral" situation is threatening in manner and he should be reported. Personally, having been charged by large dogs before it has never once been my initial reaction to want to shoot the dog, that said I have never been by myself when it has happened.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I think the OP has a good attitude. Telling you he was afraid of the dog and letting you know that a dog running loose in public that causes people to be afraid could get the dog shot isn't a threat. Neither is showing that he's carrying in a state where he is allowed to carry. My guess is the population there that doesn't carry is the minority. Kind of a jerk way to do it, but nothing unlawful about it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just a follow up.

I'm working on this very seriously. I will probably start layering in e-collar with the recall just so I can make it very quick and nearly 100% (very few things in life are 100%). 

Today we trained with focused heeling around a bunch of cross country skiers in a field. I weaved around the skiers (not too close, or they would have thought me even stranger) "fuss-ed" her, downed her in motion, recalled her and then at the end rewarded with a game of tug with the leash. No problems. I had my other two dogs with me and worked them separately on some recall and trick stuff. 

But, when we were coming up the single track trails to the larger trail, she did alert bark real quick at some snow bikers (from a ways back, we came around a corner and they surprised us). She was very close to me this time and on leash. I "fuss-ed" her and we went by (no further reaction or barking), but the (female) biker informed me that I have a "mean" dog.

I think that is the perception I am going to get, unfortunately. I know to some degree GSDs and malinois are supposed to "look" mean. So I battle that a bit, too. I think she's cute, but she does have a wolfish-police dog look to her. And she's grown a bit in the past month. 

Honestly, I love this dog and I will leash her all the time if I have to, but, first my right shoulder is having some major pain/issues (old injury and dislocation) and I'll probably have to have surgery. It would be hugely helpful NOT to have to use a leash all the time. Which is why I'll probably be going with e-collar.

Second, the bark alert behavior is going to be tough to eliminate completely. I can call her back quickly BUT I'm not sure I can completely get rid of it. I've been much more diligent about calling her in whenever I see anyone on the trail- even if I think she won't react. But I can't do this pre-emptively 100% all the time because sometimes people appear suddenly. She is very good with the recall, but I think there is room for improvement in speed, as with any command. 

I also will be working a whole lot on passing other dogs in harness because she will be my back-up dog for the world championships skijor races in March. A solid "on-by" past distractions will be helpful not just for skijoring, but for the trails as well. I have access to a lot of calm, neutral dogs with mushing friends, so as long as I can get them onboard with training the "maligator" we should be in good shape in a short amount of time. 

I've never had a dog that is so easy to train, but I've also never had a dog that needed so much training just to go trail running. Give and take, I guess. 

I'm going to try to take video of some of the training- it's hard because my hands are full with the dog so I need to set it up somewhere on tripod or similar, but I find it really useful to see what's going on with me and the dog, and it may be helpful for other people. No guarantees, though. Training takes priority over video. 

Thanks for all the comments on this. It sure was a wake-up call for me, and probably a good thing it happened when she is just 17 months old and I have ample opportunity to get her in better habits for life. I'm also very glad it ended well.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Musk I feel like you are reading too much into this / care too much for what people think.
I know people who think any dog that doesn't look or act like a lab is mean. Which is ridiculous.

You're probably NEVER going to see these people again in your life
don't sweat it too much.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I agree with this ... on these conditions ... 

your dog isn't running at them full tilt scaring the crap out of them 
the alert bark (or two) doesn't turn into a full scale barking fest
your dog comes back to you when called

Kyleigh sits in the back of my car, I have a divider so she can't get into the front. I have a four door car. I go through the Tim's drive thru every day on our way to our hike. She's in the back seat, the window is up, there is no way for her to even touch the person at the drive-thru window. She's never barked, whined or anything when I go to the cash. 

Depending on who is at the window I get a variety of reactions:

does your dog want a tim bit?
ooh, is she ever cute
wow, nice looking dog, what is she mixed with 

OR

is she going to bite me? 
she looks really mean
I wouldn't want to try and break into your car 
she's absolutely huge (60 pounds)

One of my friends has a chihuahua (nastiest dog I've ever met) ... her dog has *almost* bit every single tim horton's person that works the cash ... if my friend wasn't fast enough, the dog would have bit (whole other story, let's NOT go there ... they both drive me nuts) ... and yet EVERY SINGLE person that sees that dog thinks it's adorable and wants to pick it up!!!

I agree that you should keep up the training ... at 17 months, you've got lots of training to go, as I'm sure you know ... but don't beat yourself up about it!


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