# German Shepherd VS Shiloh Shepherd



## Sylverkitti

Honestly, what is the difference?? I love GSDs, I would never have another breed, but the Shiloh Shepherd, to me, looks like those big boned German line GSDs......I don't see a difference. So can anyone tell me whats the deal on that?


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## nathalie1977

The Shiloh Shepherd is not a German Shepherd. The 'creators' bred in large breeds to build size.

The German line GSDs are not 'big boned' in that they don't weigh 120 lbs. They are bred to the GSD standard.

That's just one difference.


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## duenorth

I have both and there are more differences than similarities. They are very different breeds in structure, size and most notably, temperament. It's like comparing apples and oranges.


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## Sylverkitti

I did a lot of internet reading after posting, very confusing, seems they say GSD is the main genetic pool, but theres a lot of "other" in there, wolf, and some breeds I never heard of. Might be fiction, but also scared me off. i still so prefer the GSD, it was just how they look so much "like" a GSD, that I thought I was on a GSD site till I came across an odd coat color and started reading instead of just looking.....


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## MaggieRoseLee

They are completely a different breed. Many Shiloh sites seem to do a write up about how they are going back to the 'old line larger GSD's' when that's a breed that NEVER existed.

If you want to look at the 'old line GSD' they may not look like current GSD's either, but they are even more different than a Shiloh. (from this site.. ) 

Horand (1890 ?) First GSD









Beowulf (1895 ?)









Klodo (1925)









This site is neat, has the winners in the USA from back to 1918
http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/GrandVictors.html

1926 GV Donar Overstolzen









1941 & 1944 GV Ch. Nox of Ruthland ROM









NONE of these dogs were even over 100 pounds...


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## AbbyK9

The whole "old German lines, traditional, large-boned, large" (etc.etc.) GSDs touted by so many breeders are one of my favorite German Shepherd myths. There never was and there is not now any type of "traditional large" German Shepherd Dog. The breed has always been a medium-sized herding breed in Germany - if anything, "old" style German Shepherds were smaller than Shepherds bred to the standard now.

For some reason, loads of people seem to think that German Shepherds used to be larger. To such an extent that I hardly can take my to-the-standard female, who is just under 24" at the withers anywhere without hearing, "What's she mixed with? She's so small."


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## Lin

> Originally Posted By: HistorianTo such an extent that I hardly can take my to-the-standard female, who is just under 24" at the withers anywhere without hearing, "What's she mixed with? She's so small."


Ugh I have the same problem. Tessa is 24" and I get it constantly, plus she's sable so that doubles the comments because no one recognizes it.


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## onyx'girl

A huge male GSD, very old and gray muzzled probably hard of hearing and he wasn't fat just big 120# ish was in the middle of the road I was drivin on today(lake area and 25 mph) so he probably wanders. He was very handsome! I love the big GSD's and the Shilohs, with the straight back, unlike many opinions. Different strokes...Onyx looks like the dog in the 2nd to last pic(1926) as far as her structure goes.


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## Jazzyo

I have met only a couple of Shilohs and I loved both of them! They were large, incredibly beautiful and seemed to have the most interesting personalities! I too like the larger GSD's but I like the standard too. As long as they are healthy.....








Joanna


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## GSDolch

I use to talk to a women who bred shilohs. From talking to her, and her group and what they wanted, they DO NOT want to be compared to GSDs.

It was years ago when we talked but then, there was a real big split. Some considered them larger GSDs and wanted to breed to them, but some clubs and breeders didnt want that and well, want them to be their own breed with their own purpose. I'll give it to them, the people I talked to actually had a purpose and goal in mind unlike the snoodles and poo dogs that you see being bred for money.

There are some who say that shilohs dont have any wolf in them and the major cross was originally GSDs and Malamute and/or other northern breeds, but, I am not 100% certain.

They are very different in all ways from looks to temerpent. I myself wouldnt mind having one, but they are in no way GSDs.


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## onyx'girl

There is one in my training club, she is smaller than Onyx and very sweet, silver sable with a dark face. She is quite a handful, won't do the downstays for her handler(4 weeks in), but is very happy and bouncy. I think she is at least over 1 1/2, but still acts puppyish. I would take her in a nanosecond!


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## CertainlySpoiled

I must be stupid, I don't think i've ever seen a Shiloh...I'm going to look it up now!


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## CertainlySpoiled

ok hopefully i'm not the only person who has no clue to what a shiloh is....so here is what I found for those who also don't know 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiloh_Shepherd


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## Strongheart

> Originally Posted By: HistorianThere never was and there is not now any type of "traditional large" German Shepherd Dog. The breed has always been a medium-sized herding breed in Germany


We recently had a 110lb GSD, Jake, at the shelter. He was huge! My two streudelheads are huge too, but not that huge. So are they mistakes? 

Oh and Strongheart's weight varied between 100 and 125lbs and that was in the 1920s? Maybe he started the 'tradition'?


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## Guest

Well I can speak on the "old-line larger GSD" issue. I believe that by "old-line" they are talking about nothing further back than about 50 - 60 years at most. My father was a GSD breeder from 1948 until 1984. In that time it was a purely American breeder goal for larger dogs and many did indeed get big but usually no bigger than about 125 llbs at most. Around the late 1970s and early '80s breeders came to think of this as an incorrect path for the breed. Many health related issues were showing up more and more and this is the timeframe when hip dysplasia became so prevalent that bad hips also became associated with the breed as did the larger size. The return 30 years ago to the original build was correct but is still so recent in the public consciousness that many still think of the dogs as they were all those years ago as being the standard when we who are dedicated to the breed know different. The large size gene is still there though and does crop up from time to time as it did in my dogs Max and Odin. Responsible owners and breeders do not allow such dogs to mate and so carry on the goal of returning the breed to the size it exists best as.


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## Emoore

> Originally Posted By: Strongheart
> We recently had a 110lb GSD, Jake, at the shelter. He was huge! My two streudelheads are huge too, but not that huge. So are they mistakes?


Not necessarily mistakes, but definately outside the standard.


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## big_dog7777

If a breeder is breeding to standard they will still get 100lb+ males, they're not mistakes... just big. A lot of the weight assumptions people have are WAY off. Many dogs people think are 100 pounds are really 80 pounds. My Diesel only weights 75 pounds, but does not look anywhere near that light. He has a huge chest, head, paws and thighs - but nothing in the middle!


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:We recently had a 110lb GSD, Jake, at the shelter. He was huge! My two streudelheads are huge too, but not that huge. So are they mistakes?
> 
> Oh and Strongheart's weight varied between 100 and 125lbs and that was in the 1920s? Maybe he started the 'tradition'?


What I was saying in my post above is that the breeders who are purposely breeding German Shepherds to be WAY over the standard in terms of both height and weight are breeders that continually use the terms "traditional", "old country", "old German style", etc. to make their buyers believe that this is what the breed used to be or what the breed should be. 

However, if you look back at the breed's history - at dogs in the Sieger shows going back to the turn of the Century - you will see what the breed used to be and should be in terms of size. They are supposed to be an agile, medium-sized herding breed. They are not supposed to be huge lunking behemoths the size of large Malamutes or Great Danes.

Incidentally, I was talking about the height of these dogs, not their build or weight. However, a lot of those breeders who breed for size advertise their dogs by weight - usually very overweight dogs, too. I believe we had that discussion in one of the breeding sections not too long ago, where a breeder had dogs on their website and was touting how large (in terms of weight) they were by what age - you could see neck rolls on these dogs. They looked horrible.

There are plenty of breeders out there who breed oversized (in terms of height) because there is a market of people who think that German Shepherds should be HUGE, rather than a medium-sized breeds, and the fact that they advertise them as "old fashioned", or any of the other buzzwords they like to use, is just sad. If you're breeding oversized, just say you're breeding oversized. Don't claim you're breeding "what the breed used to be like", because it was never intended to be that big.


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## geokon_2000

If you want to do some research. This is probably a good site to go on. http://www.shilohshepherds.org/

GSDolch has most of the info right. and no Shilohs have NO wolf in them. If they've got wolf blood, they're not Shilohs


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote: My father was a GSD breeder from 1948 until 1984. In that time it was a purely American breeder goal for larger dogs and many did indeed get big but usually no bigger than about 125 llbs at most.


GSDad, do you have any links that show the written standard for the GSD's during those years? Be neat to look at the differences from the beginning of the breed (when the dogs were only medium sized) then when you are talking about (when the standard must have changed to get them to be large dogs) and then back to the current standard of med dogs. 

And I'm guessing it's for the American Showline GSD? Though not sure if the standard changed over more of the world at that time or not.


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## Emoore

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> GSDad, do you have any links that show the written standard for the GSD's during those years? Be neat to look at the differences from the beginning of the breed (when the dogs were only medium sized) then when you are talking about (when the standard must have changed to get them to be large dogs) and then back to the current standard of med dogs.


I don't think the written standard changed, there was just a trend where people ignored it.


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## Guest

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: My father was a GSD breeder from 1948 until 1984. In that time it was a purely American breeder goal for larger dogs and many did indeed get big but usually no bigger than about 125 llbs at most.
> 
> 
> 
> GSDad, do you have any links that show the written standard for the GSD's during those years? Be neat to look at the differences from the beginning of the breed (when the dogs were only medium sized) then when you are talking about (when the standard must have changed to get them to be large dogs) and then back to the current standard of med dogs.
> 
> And I'm guessing it's for the American Showline GSD? Though not sure if the standard changed over more of the world at that time or not.
Click to expand...

My sister has all my father's papers as she is our mother's power of attorney and executor. I will ask her to look through them to see but It'll probably have to wait until I visit her again in a month or so. 

In my memory of these years it was not something that as postulated above was ignored, but was a real goal for a large portion of the breed. I remember my father being very active in this and he brought dogs in from more than a few states to accomplish his goals with his line. I remember trips with him to New York, Massachusetts, Maine, Ohio, and Virginia to get a dog to add to the line. I know there were more besides. All these dogs had papers. I've searched on this page for the pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/search.html However, only one dog comes up and is not a relation. Odd though because I'm holding Odin's papers in my hand and his doesn't come up either. I have Frigga's papers. She's from a completely different line and her listing isn't coming up so I don't know how worthwhile these internet listings are.

I will see what I can find though from my father's papers and get back to you on this. If nothing else it may be of interest to see a history of the line for that era. I think you may be right, Maggie, that this was a showline concept then. Remember, this was the era of "Rusty", "King", and "Flame" who were GSDs in the movies of the '40s and '50s and into the '60s. All of them were large dogs.


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## barbprzyby

This is not a very sophisticated or learned reply.... but just a thought.
When I was little (61 yrs ago), everything looked bigger, and in trying to recapture things of childhood, it's shocking how perspective changes in the light of reality! 
I always admired the German Shepherd breed because of it's noble and strong appearance. 
Having had three of them, (one at at a time through their lifetimes), has been an education in the scope of variety of body type, personality, and intangible qualities that only an owner would know. 
My present dog was the only one bought from a breeder.
At the time I got her, I was determined to connect with the heart of the breed. 
I loved my other shepherds but I knew there was something more to experience and drove my family nuts in the quest.
We tramped all over New Jersey and they thought I was too picky- "We are not going home without a dog this time!". 
We were hurting from the passing of #2 girl and they were impatient to fill the void of her presence.
They wanted a dog NOW but I didn't want to settle.
I had done my homework and I knew what I wanted in general terms.
When I stepped into the breeder's office,I knew instantly I was in the right place from his pictures on the wall.
Today my understanding is light years beyond my early years, and I still have miles to go.
I love to come to this forum and learn more.
After having a GSD as close to the standard as I could afford, I have to say that it was worth it to seek out the right one.
Naomi is all I had dreamed and more- the standard is the guardian of all that made her what she is and why she is.
I now appreciate those who are diligent to research their breedings and stay close to the Standard- Carry on!


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## Yvette

I was wondering about the differences of the life expectancies of
GSD & a Shiloh?
But, on the other hand, I really love Betty's (wicked1996) Bismark!
He is a BIG cuddlie bear of a GSD!


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## Barb E

> Quote: I've searched on this page for the pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/search.html


People enter their own dogs on the database 








You might find relatives, for instance Dante's parents weren't listed but all the other generations were


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## Guest

Right, I wasn't expecting to find my dogs so much as I was expecting to find their lines. I found neither.


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: GSDadRight, I wasn't expecting to find my dogs so much as I was expecting to find their lines. I found neither.


Ahhh I see, sorry I misinterpreted what you said


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## Sylverkitti

Yeah some of those sites are rather informative in the wrong way: http://www.shilohs.issdc.com/ISSDC/ISSDCArticleOtherSide.html thats where I got the wolf and GSD lineage.


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## The Mystic

GSDolch said:


> I use to talk to a women who bred shilohs. From talking to her, and her group and what they wanted, they DO NOT want to be compared to GSDs.
> 
> It was years ago when we talked but then, there was a real big split. Some considered them larger GSDs and wanted to breed to them, but some clubs and breeders didnt want that and well, want them to be their own breed with their own purpose. I'll give it to them, the people I talked to actually had a purpose and goal in mind unlike the snoodles and poo dogs that you see being bred for money.
> 
> There are some who say that shilohs dont have any wolf in them and the major cross was originally GSDs and Malamute and/or other northern breeds, but, I am not 100% certain.
> 
> They are very different in all ways from looks to temerpent. I myself wouldnt mind having one, but they are in no way GSDs.


There's no wolf in the Shiloh Shepherd. Malamutes are known for better hips, bigger size, and the most marked difference from GSD's-a very soft temperament. Malamutes are famous for being babysitters of children in the north, they are sweet, compliant and not as business minded as GSDs. 

My Shiloh, Missy, is like a hippie dog when it comes to children and the elderly-"It's all good, man, whatever". She's extraordinarily stable and predictable in her reactions to things-absolutely bulletproof. Kids can do anything to her and she wriggles like a puppy. 

If there was wolf in the breed, they would be more of a hard, and dominant dog, which the Shilohs can never be accused of. I'm sure, like all breeds, there are dominant specimens, but as a general rule, this is not a dog that will test your leadership. 

However, they will protect what is theirs with every inch of their 100 pound fluffy bodies-Missy proved that this weekend when some drunk men came staggering out of the woods into our campsite, where my children were eating dinner. She stood growling at them, and once they came completely out of the woods, (I would have one around had I seen a large angry dog waiting for me) she barked, and they kept walking through...she grabbed one guys shirt and shook him like a doll. He screamed and ran, his friend fell over my cockerpoo, and scrambled out of the site doing a Marine crawl. 

Had she had wolf in her, he'd be counting stitches, and I'd be in big trouble. My husband has always doubted she would step up when necessary, now he's darned impressed at her protectiveness, and her control over her reaction.


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## codmaster

That is kind of cool with your dog grabbing his shirt and leaving no marks! Very discerning of him!


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## fuzzybunny

Since I have a Shiloh Shepherd I feel the need to point out that the breed standard for height/weight (140-160 pounds) as quoted by the ISSR is not typical of the average Shiloh Shepherd. Any Shiloh weighing this is in all probability fat. Males are typically 100-125 pounds, 28"-30" and females 80-100 pounds, 26"-28".


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## codmaster

In either case, that is one BIG dog!


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## fuzzybunny

codmaster said:


> In either case, that is one BIG dog!


Yup, a gentle giant .


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## codmaster

Is it the one in your avatar? Cute dog!


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## fuzzybunny

codmaster said:


> Is it the one in your avatar? Cute dog!


Thanks! Yes, that's Jazz, my Shiloh.


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## Mrs.K

My friends male is one of the largest shilohs out there in height. He's actually 29 inches and weighs 92 pounds. He does look like he's much bigger but in reality he isn't. Even I assumed that he was a little over a 100 pounds but it's mainly because of his fur. It's so fluffy that it makes him look that big, plus his size is deceiving. A dog that large must be over a hundred pounds. 

It's funny, yukon is 13 pounds less than the shiloh shepherd but he looks like a small, skiny dog compared to the shiloh. 

I don't know, while he's a beautiful dog I wouldn't want one. Just to big for my taste


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## The Mystic

fuzzybunny said:


> Since I have a Shiloh Shepherd I feel the need to point out that the breed standard for height/weight (140-160 pounds) as quoted by the ISSR is not typical of the average Shiloh Shepherd. Any Shiloh weighing this is in all probability fat. Males are typically 100-125 pounds, 28"-30" and females 80-100 pounds, 26"-28".


You're right-I couldn't imagine Missy would be healthy if she weighed what the standard says she should. She's around 90 pounds. 

She's just bigger boned and maybe 2-3 inches bigger than a male GSD. 

Speaking of which, time for her after breakfast walk!!
:wub:


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## onyxena

Love this discussion! I have been looking into the Shilohs and Kings too. Just curious mostly, but certainly may consider looking for a pup at some point. I have been asked if my girl Sasha is a Shiloh 3 or 4 times! She is large, 80#, plush coat, and very sweet natured. Reading some of your descrriptions sounds just like her! She totally adores kids, particularly young girls. She is very polite and gentle with kids and older folks as well. she is somewhat aloof with adults, but will warm up. But nothing brings out her sweetness like little girls! She definately has many shepherd traits also though. 

I have sometimes wondered if she may be Shiloh, but being she was adopted from a high kill county shelter, i doubt it. Far more likely a GSD I suppose. But if a Shiloh is like her, I would probably love one!


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## Vandagriff

I have both, a 6.5 y/o GSD and I have a SS puppy who is 4.5 months old. To me the biggest difference is temperament. My first SS recently passed away, so this is my 2nd SS. I love both breeds, in some ways they are very different and in some ways so similar. My GSD comes from normal sized parents and yet he is 122 pounds and 31-32 inches at his shoulders, he is not fat, just a mutant. My first Shiloh was born with problems due to lack of oxygen, which I knew fully well before I chose to bring him home but he was just a special, amazing boy. Our new SS is a healthy and a huge goofball, with an easy going nature, at 4.5 months old he is a fluffy goof. This is my first experience with a plush coat, as I have always had a smooth coated pup. Besides the size, I would say that SS tend to be softer temperaments and bred to be companions though many are working dogs.


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## fuzzybunny

Vandagriff said:


> I have both, a 6.5 y/o GSD and I have a SS puppy who is 4.5 months old. To me the biggest difference is temperament. My first SS recently passed away, so this is my 2nd SS. I love both breeds, in some ways they are very different and in some ways so similar. My GSD comes from normal sized parents and yet he is 122 pounds and 31-32 inches at his shoulders, he is not fat, just a mutant. My first Shiloh was born with problems due to lack of oxygen, which I knew fully well before I chose to bring him home but he was just a special, amazing boy. Our new SS is a healthy and a huge goofball, with an easy going nature, at 4.5 months old he is a fluffy goof. This is my first experience with a plush coat, as I have always had a smooth coated pup. Besides the size, I would say that SS tend to be softer temperaments and bred to be companions though many are working dogs.


Can you please post pics! Pretty please with a cherry on top .


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## The Mystic

Vandagriff said:


> I have both, a 6.5 y/o GSD and I have a SS puppy who is 4.5 months old. To me the biggest difference is temperament. My first SS recently passed away, so this is my 2nd SS. I love both breeds, in some ways they are very different and in some ways so similar. My GSD comes from normal sized parents and yet he is 122 pounds and 31-32 inches at his shoulders, he is not fat, just a mutant. My first Shiloh was born with problems due to lack of oxygen, which I knew fully well before I chose to bring him home but he was just a special, amazing boy. Our new SS is a healthy and a huge goofball, with an easy going nature, at 4.5 months old he is a fluffy goof. This is my first experience with a plush coat, as I have always had a smooth coated pup. Besides the size, I would say that SS tend to be softer temperaments and bred to be companions though many are working dogs.


Awww-you're so sweet to take in a special boy and give him a good life!! As far as the plush goes-Missy is a plush, but not the wooly mammoth type-she's got the long thick body hair, but only slight feathering on her legs, and a mane. Many people ask if she's a wolf...until they meet her. LOL! Wait until that plush coat is an adult plush coat, and the warm weather comes...if you can knit and weave-you'll be all set!! :wild:

Tumbleweeds of a Tombstone AZ calibre come to mind...(As they're rolling across my living room...)


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## fuzzybunny

Jazz is a plush too and I'm so grateful he's on the shorter end of plush because he really feels it on the hot days. I had to hose him down after one of our walks the other day because I felt sorry for him. 

Here's a shot of him at 8 months


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## kiya

He's beautiful Carolyn!
I can say that after having 2 Shilohs that are 115lb each, with plush coats, I really really am starting to LOVE my little white 70lb munchkin.
As far as the difference in temperment, my Shilohs are much softer than Lakota is. I have seen her stand up to my male with zero intimidation. He will snarl baring his teeth & growl at her and she'll lick his face. But for the most part I think all "Shepherds" in general have simalar traits that I will always be drawn to. I don't really think other breeds come close to having the inteligence that they have. Theres just something about a Shepherd be it German, Shiloh, Belgian Tervuren or Malinois they will win my heart all the time.


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## HeidiW

After reading all this I now want a shiloh!! Your dogs are gorgeous! I do love my GSD.


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## The Mystic

fuzzybunny said:


> Jazz is a plush too and I'm so grateful he's on the shorter end of plush because he really feels it on the hot days. I had to hose him down after one of our walks the other day because I felt sorry for him.
> 
> Here's a shot of him at 8 months


He's really a looker! That looks like a really thick coat!!


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## Vandagriff

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n495/Vandagriff/tug1.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n495/Vandagriff/2011-05-02_09-22-01_276.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n495/Vandagriff/MrGriff.jpg

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n495/Vandagriff/meGriff.jpg

I could not figure out the correct way to post them so that you could just see them, I will try and figure it out


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## Vandagriff

This was my first SS, Simon. I agree that the Shepherds all are special to me too


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## Vandagriff

My GSD (Oliver) & my first SS


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## Vandagriff

My GSD Oliver, after his brother died would stay in front of this door waiting for Simon to come home, so sad


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## JakodaCD OA

Don't know if it was posted here or not, but on the GS data base, it's been posted that Tina Barber passed away last week.


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## Vandagriff

This is Vandagriff being held by my husband at just under 4 months, lol!


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## Vandagriff

I do not know if it was posted here but yes, she passed away on May 30th, it just does not seem possible that a woman who was so incredible could really be gone... Godspeed MaShiloh, you are missed but your legacy lives on in your wonderful Shiloh Shepherds


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## dazedtrucker

Vandagriff said:


> I do not know if it was posted here but yes, she passed away on May 30th, it just does not seem possible that a woman who was so incredible could really be gone... Godspeed MaShiloh, you are missed but your legacy lives on in your wonderful Shiloh Shepherds


What happened? She was just 63, right? Sad to hear that


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## Vandagriff

She was too young to die but she had been battling cancer


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, I heard about that a couple of days ago. I was talking about the shilohs with a friend and she told me that there was notice that she died from cancer. 

Her legacy will live on and a hundred years from now, people will debate why she created the breed and what she ment by doing so, just like people do with Max von Stephanitz. She will never be forgotten.


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## spiritsmom

Lung cancer I believe it was. I met her many years ago when I went to a Shiloh Homecoming in 2003 I believe. She was a strong woman in mind and spirit. 

I was due to get a female Shiloh Shepherd puppy in July, but the litter I was set on had only 2 females born (I had 2nd pick) and then one of them passed in the first few days. So now no Shiloh for me for awhile yet. Can't seem to find a pairing I like as much as I liked that one. I can wait a year and see if she breeds her girl again or start looking for another breeder. I just really liked the breeder, her program and her dog as well as the stud she picked. It all just fell into place with that litter so I don't want to "settle" for just any Shiloh puppy. Has to be the right one and I know from experience that certain health problems are rampant in some lines so I need to stay away from those.


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## Jessiewessie99

Shilohs are nice looking dogs. But I HATE it when people go around saying they are breeding "old fashioned", "old style" etc. type dogs. If I want a GSD, I will get a GSD. If I want a Shiloh I will get a Shiloh.

To All the Shiloh people in this thread:Beautiful dogs.


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## fuzzybunny

Thanks fellow Shiloh owners for posting your Shiloh pics! They're beautiful.

It is unfortunate that our breed founder, Tina Barber, passed away. I have an ISSDC Shiloh but that does not change the fact the she is responsible for the creation of these beautiful dogs and for that I am grateful. I can honestly say that everyone in the Shiloh world is saddened by her loss including the ISSDC folks. May Tina rest in peace.


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## spiritsmom

If any Shiloh owners here want to PM me to give me some recommended breeders that would be great. I know many of the longtime breeders but very few of the newer ones.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

JakodaCD OA said:


> Don't know if it was posted here or not, but on the GS data base, it's been posted that Tina Barber passed away last week.


Did she still have dogs?


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## The Mystic

JakodaCD OA said:


> Don't know if it was posted here or not, but on the GS data base, it's been posted that Tina Barber passed away last week.


Wow. I'm really sad about that news. Missy is a New Zion puppy. MaShiloh was such a strong and bright woman. I'm sure her daughter will continue her kennel and ideals.

RIP Tina.


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## spiritsmom

I believe her daughter is taking over New Zion kennels. She is trying to place/retire some older former breeding dogs now.


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## kiya

There was a link sent to one of my Shiloh groups, the are looking to rehome several females most are around 5 years old. So sad, it will be hard to find homes for the old girls.


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