# Our Maggie having some issues, need ideas



## jesmagmisty (Jul 13, 2001)

Maggie (almost 10) is starting to have some issues. She has had a lick granuloma off and on the past couple of years on her leg/foot. I thought she had Pannus but the vet says it is not and has checked several times. Now her fur is terrible. Very, very dry almost brittle. She had a bath a few weeks ago, (oatmeal) due to her fur being so oily. We thought she was just blowing coat but it is worse than that. 
She is fed CA Natural twice a day 1 3/4 c. per meal. Her supplements are:
vit. c, vit. e, fish oil, chondroitin, glucosamine, msm, a slight sprinkle of Prozyme, Primal Defense, and a small sprinkle of Nupro (not joint), Nupro is not a full dose, just for a little flavor. The food is new about 6 months ago but supplements she's been on for years. Food had been healthwise for a short period, nobody did well on that. Before that it was Canidae, when they changed their formula, all of mine had tummy issues.
She had a senior blood panel ran today and everything is in the normal range. Urine and poop both tested ok and poop looks ok also. 
She seems to be quite happy, is lcurrently aying on the floor chewing her orbee ball.
She has been on pred. (low doses) but not currently. Tried amitriptoline (sp) and Benadryl. Used a bite not collar, she got a hold of a piece of the strap, ended up chewing it all up AND eating it. We've used different e-collars and she finds a way to get around them and get her foot.
She is a sweet, gentle dog. Never any problems other than chewing things when on pred.
She's active, eats well and plays all normal.
Any ideas, any suggestions? I keep thinking I've tried about everything I can think of. Have not tried anything holistic because I know nothing about it and don't want to do something detrimental to her health.
Sorry this is so long but I'm trying to give you all the information I can think of.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Did they check her thyroid.The coat could be a symptom of that. Good luck on finding a diagnosis.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The list of supplements is overwhelming. How can you tell what's what with a dog with that much stuff?

For coat, I feed 3 flax seed capsules daily to the one that was on a low fat diet and needed the oil. 

As far as lick granulomas -- it takes forever to get mine to stop.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

As Allie suggests, if the blood panel didn't include a full thyroid function screen, I would request that. 

Also zinc and vitamin B are important for skin/fur health. 

I don't think the list of supplements you're giving is overwhelming. I give similar to my adults. But a multi-vitamin might help with these other deficiencies as well. I don't know how much Vit E you're giving, but if you give a multi, you *may* need to back off on the vitamin E somewhat since the multi will certainly have some. You're likely ok on the vitamin C unless you're already megadosing it for specific reasons. 

It's also been my experience that when tummy and GI issues arise, one of the places I notice it is in the fur (which makes sense, since the GI tract is the largest immune system organ after the skin). So I would be inclined to consider adding a probiotic to her regimen as well. I've read two studies (and it's been my experiences as well) that probiotics marketed for dogs -- even the good ones -- aren't as effective as quality human grade probiotics. So you may wish to consider picking up probiotics at the drug store, Costco, etc. 

Was the medicine she was on amitriptyline (Elevil) for anxiety? I just want to make sure I know what drugs we're talking about. There are about four or five Rx drugs that all sort of sound the same (including one my dog takes for high blood pressure.







) . Obviously, some supplements are contraindicated for some Rx drugs. That's why I want to make sure we have the right one, in case she needs to go back on it. 

Where is that granuloma? Is it near/at a joint? Sometimes, dogs will lick and lick because of pain, and chiropractic resolves that rather easily. I first read about this in Whole Dog Journal. So I brought my senior, who licked her foot often, to the chiropractor. Two visits with the chiropractor who adjusted her toes, and she hasn't really touched it again. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself. The vet/chiropractor said that dogs get their toes jammed rather often. (Zamboni's wrist was also tweaked some - and she was licking her wrist too, though not as much). So that's something to consider.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think some versions of CA Natural are high in sunflower oil? That might not be working for her?

For the licking, I use a combination scullcap and black cohosh to calm the nerves to relieve that intense desire to lick, if it's a nerve thing. You could try some stretching and massage and see if you get any weird responses.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Yeah, CA Natural uses sunflower oil as its fat source, and a number of dogs don't do well with it.

Now that Lisa mentions that it might be "a nerve thing," neurontin is very useful specifically for nerve pain. (I think Lisa meant nerves like anxiety, but I mean the underlying nerves themselves). Vets like to prescribe it other sorts of pain, which I'm not so thrilled with. But nerve pain? It found almost instant off-label use working on nerve pain and is actually widely accepted for that purpose.

Doesn't work for every human or dog, of course. I would consider acupuncture first. Well, the chiropractic, then acupuncture, then the neurontin. My holistic vet advised that the herbs Lisa recommended can be good for arthritis, especially black cohosh. I've read contraindications for those with liver disease with black cohosh, although the National Institutes of Health say the studies are inconclusive. As long as Maggie's liver numbers are good, it's probably not a concern. But I'd keep an eye on her liver enzymes. Actually, though, with any medicine, you'd want to keep an eye on her liver numbers anyhow. 

I know that lick granulomas happen, and I know what all the veterinary medicine says about them. I just think that most relatively stable dogs don't start licking themselves to the point of maiming themselves unless there's an underlying condition to begin with. Dogs with severe anxiety or boredom, yes. But from what you've said about Maggie ( that she's sweet, gentle, active and normal) if she were my dog, I'd be wondering if there's a cause for that licking that even if we can't quite cure, perhaps we can treat the cause (the pain, inflammation, etc), instead of the symptom of the licking. 

Does that make sense?









Even if not, a holistic vet can lead you toward herbal remedies and other ideas that might help more than psychotropic drugs. Massage, stretching, possibly water therapy. These new experiences would be simultaneously soothing the body and the brain. I have no particular persuasion against psychotropic drugs, except that they haven't worked for Maggie before. There are others that are out there that work differently than Elavil that might be work considering. 

And finally, on the issue of drugs, Benadryl made my normally confident nerves-of-steel GSD an anxious mess. For some people and dogs, Benadryl is a sedative. For others? It's a stimulant ... or worse. 

So, those are some directions you could go.... You have a few options, at least!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

California Natural has lots of grains and is lower protein. My seniors have done best with diets with low or no grain and higher protein. So low carbs, high protein. 

I really like this senior supplement. Chama is doing very well on it and I know Jean uses it for Kramer as well. http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Vetri-Science-Canine-Plus-Senior/125014.aspx


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> California Natural has lots of grains and is lower protein. My seniors have done best with diets with low or no grain and higher protein. So low carbs, high protein.


My senior as well. The food I feed her is actually quite high in fat too, but she thrives on it. She's not particularly active (compared to how active she was as a younger adult, or compared to my younger two). I guess she just needs it. CA Natural has 11% fat in both its lamb and chicken formulas. That's rather low by most standards. (Just for comparison, Canidae is 14.5%. TWO is 15%. Orijen Adult is 16%. Orijen Senior is 14%). Too little fat intake can cause dry skin and fur as well. So the low fat content may be too low and causing/exacerbating the problems. 

Ruth's likely on to something here. A grain free food might be worth trying for a variety of reasons. It certainly might help with any inflammation issues too.


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## jesmagmisty (Jul 13, 2001)

Thanks everyone for great ideas. I've also found out pred usage can create hair loss. She was on a low dosage but you never know. I am looking into other food as well. I was already in that process. I can't even buy more until this weekend. Then I usually take a month to change over. I drive about 70 miles one way to buy food. Jesse is having some quite ripe gas with the CA Nat. PHEW! I was afraid the totally grain free foods would give them all gas.
My vet is calling U of FL and checking into acupuncture. Maggie has had severe HD since an infant but has been maintained all these years with the supplements I give. So acupuncture may possibly help with the licking and certainly won't hurt her hips. We haven't got a call back with information on that yet.
In the meantime, she is still quite happy. I can't believe she is bored. Yes, she is alone during the day but her evenings and weekends are quite active, the same as they have been for nine years. 
I'm not sure if her thyroid was checked but I will ask, so thanks for that suggestion also.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Yeah, I think of "hopelessly bored," like dogs who are stuck in the backyard and are never played with by their families, not dogs that snooze during the day and have packmates to keep them company til their human family comes home and lavishes love and attention all over them. I doubt it's boredom.









Keep us posted.


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