# So frustrated...



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Previous Thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/258306-need-help-neighbours-dog.html


Delgado has been making great progress with learning to ignore the neighbour’s fence fighting dog. He recalls off it immediately and will run back into the house now.

But I'm really getting fed up with our neighbours. For 8 months now we've been dealing with their dog fence fighting with Delgado, snarling and literally jumping ON the fence (6' wood privacy fence) whenever it hears our dogs. Even if we're inside and have the window open it will snarl and jump at the fence when our dogs are *inside *doing nothing to provoke. The section of fence it fights at used to have a small 2" gap between the ground and fence so we built it up with ground and put down sod so it's completely sealed on our side as the dog was digging under the fence and they weren’t doing anything to prevent or correct it.

Yesterday, I got off work early and went home and checked and it didn't seem like the neighbours or dog was out so I let mine out to go to the bathroom. 0.5 seconds later I realize the other dog is out as it comes banging on the fence, I recalled Delgado immediately and he was coming back to me when the dog runs all the way to the other end of the fence and manages to squeeze his head under the gate! He was able to wiggle his whole head under. Delgado spun around and ran to the gate. One of the owners is standing now on their deck yelling at their dog that is completely ignoring him

I panicked inwardly picturing Delgado gleefully grabbing that head and ripping it off. I sharply called out a "leave it" and grabbed the hose as I ran and sprayed a hard shot right between the dogs and Delgado backed off and ran into the house on my command. The owner never moved from the deck! I didn't really know what to say so I waved and said something like "dogs, what to do" and he responded something back but I couldn't understand him. I asked him to repeat and he said something mostly unintelligible about the dogs breaking the fence or something. I didn't want to ask him to repeat a third time so I just gave him a quizzical look with an "I hope not" response and went inside. My dogs have never touched the fence, it's his dog jumping and scratching it! It wasn't loud enough to discern a tone whether he was joking, upset, or serious

No matter what our dogs do, whether they bark back or completely ignore it the dog just goes and goes and goes on with this maniac barking and scratching.

I'm so frustrated with them; we've had to work around their dog for months now with them doing nothing to help. If I saw them working on correcting the dog or doing anything to keep it away from the fence on a consistent basis I would honestly be ok with it. But if all they are going to do is stand on the deck and either ignore or yell at the dog it's just adding to the frustration of the whole situation

To top it all off now the dog now realizes he can stick its head under the gate! There's no actual separate right of way for the backyard so legally we can't block off the gate as much as I wish we could as that would take away the neighbour’s access to their backyard through our yard.

So now I have to figure out some way to keep THEIR dog safe and off *our* property so it doesn't get hurt! 

I know I could try and talk seriously with them. Part of the problem is they have people over all the time and they also have a sister living with them with her two young kids. So if *they* don't care enough to correct the dog, will they care enough to make a household rule regarding the dog? Probably not 

They really are just very inconsiderate people in general, they sit on OUR front porch smoking and throwing their cigarette butts onto our driveway. The kids hang off this nice decorative wood fence we have on our property, etc. They would park their cars on the road across our driveway blocking it, we had to nicely correct them three times and thankfully it's seemed to stop. I'm not saying they're horrible people, but giving a general characterization of the type of people they are.

As of today I am going to secure the gate with something, whether it is another wooden board that will not impede the opening and closing or something heavy duty. I am also going to secure the gate latch, not with a lock but a piece of wire through the hole to prevent the latch from accidently popping open. 

I've had success in the past using old heavy car mats for the bottom of gates. My old roommate had an escape artist small yorkie/lhaso mix but she was easily deterred by the mats hanging down and it didn't affect the gate opening and closing. Didn't look great but who cares if it works.

I will warn the neighbours about the latch obviously so they’re not caught unaware. That will also show them I am actively working on containing our dogs and hopefully kick their brains into gear that they should be doing the same for their own dog’s safety. The houses are all freehold so we don't have a HOA or governing board 


 Sorry for the long post, I just needed to vent out loud and talk it out. 

Comments and suggestions are welcome. Though I'm only going to say that I will not touch their dog in any way shape or form. That includes feeding it, talking to it, or spraying it directly with the hose on a low setting or anything else. I don't want them having *any* evidence I've done anything to their dog. I will also not allow the dogs to meet, it's a recipe for disaster for sure and Delgado will be the one blamed regardless


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't know the legality, but if a dog was that crazy on the other side of the fence, I'd give it a shot with a hose in the face. If that didn't stop, I'd move up to pepper spray. All dogs have a learning curve.


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

Also, I'd get a sign posted on your fence warning of what could happen if any un-wanted visitors jumped the fence.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

It really is nuts, I can be outside and it doesn't react at all but as soon as it hears the dogs moving or walking it goes nuts. 

Like I said, I'm really trying to be the responsible one as it seems that the other owners refuse to be.  I don't want this dog hurt regardless and I don't want them coming and complaining that it's been injured in any way by any of my animals or myself. 

Trust me, I was SO tempted to spray the dog full in the face but I don't know if the owners would be sensitive and accuse me of hurting their dog. I also didn't know if the dog might have gotten itself stuck shoving it's head under the fence. I had literally a split second to decide so I sprayed between both dogs as a warning shot. It scared both dogs as they were totally focused on the other, Delgado backed off but the other dog didn't though it did stop snarling for a second


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I wonder if their dog can stick its head far enough through the fence that it's on your property if that counts as not properly containing their dog? If you can get photos of it I bet animal control would be willing to pay them a visit.

It sucks that you are going through this. We have neighbors who are stupid about losing control of their dogs too, and seem oblivious that it's an accident just waiting to happen. People have actually gotten bit by loose dogs in my neighborhood.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm sorry you're having to go through this! I know how you feel, my neighbors dog is the same way, the only difference is my neighbors are nice!
I would get a picture and document the gap in the fence gate and if you can get a picture of the dog's head through the gap. I would also try and talk to your neighbor about it and express your concerns, if only to protect yourself.
Can you post a picture of the fence and gap and see if anyone can suggest a solution?


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

Walperstyle said:


> Also, I'd get a sign posted on your fence warning of what could happen if any un-wanted visitors jumped the fence.


I would NEVER do this - it is admitting your dog is aggressive and if the other dog comes into their yard and the GSD attacks it, they are legally liable because to a court this is admitting that you know.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Maybe an air horn as a deterrent, scare the crap out of it


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I honestly don't know the legality of it. I would hope since if something was to happen it would have to be on our property so therefore would hopefully be not my dog's fault. 

 Now the dog has found the gate I'm going to secure it like I said so it doesn't accidently get jangled open by either dog. Under the gate is the only section of the mutual fence that is more than 1/4" from the ground. Even then it's less than a 2" gap there and I wouldn't have dreamed the dog would actually be able to shove his head under there.

I will have to talk to the neighbours about the gate so they don't think I'm just locking it as they probably won't be able to open the gate from their yard after the wire is securing the latch and will have to go around through our yard... 

I won't lay blame just a casual "just so you know, after yesterday I'm concerned about the gate so I've secured it and it's not locked so you will always have access to your yard but I didn't want it popping open accidently" conversation. If they want to continue it after that I’m happy to discuss options.

I'm at work now but will take photos of the gate when I get home before and after.

I think the air horn idea might get *me* in trouble, even if I said I was using it to correct my own dog. Those suckers are loud!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied, talking it out and bouncing ideas is how I work out solutions to problems. Now I have a plan to action I feel much better


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Client of my hubby had similar problems, he installed cement curbs under the fence, that protruded just above ground level. Dogs can't dig through or under it and earth/dirt won't wash away, so no soft dirt or gap for the dog to stick his head through. This maybe and option for the gate, sticking head under situation? 

Our little Aussie was starting to do some fence fighting with the neighbor's terrier mix. Same situation as yours, Autumn has a good recall but the little terrier will try to egg it on which makes it harder. Neighbors might holler from their porch but that's it (and I'm 'mean' for training my dogs in their view...) We installed a 'fire wall' of sorts, a second fence that creates a 'neutral' zone between them. Since your dogs are well trained you wouldn't need anything super sturdy, these are not permanent and are easy to install.

Search Results for*metal fence panels*at The Home Depot


As for the neighbor's dog's behavior I don't know what you can do. My neighbors think it's just dogs having 'fun' and I don't want to do anything to their dog either. Since we've installed the barrier and just kept working on our Autumn's behavior the game isn't as 'fun' for the next door dog and they've pretty much stopped.

Hope some of these tips will work for you too!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...oh and my trainer had a similar problem with his neighbor's dogs too, he too installed a second fence as the neighbor's dogs were digging holes and starting to poke their heads under.

They still bark at each other from time to time but having the physical gap between fences did settle the situation down. He installed a large permanent privacy fence.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I was going to mention what Gwen did. We had some issues with dogs trying to go under the gate and installed/poured a threshhold. Worked really well.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Our backyard is a decent size but not large enough for a second fence. unfortunately. 

I am hoping (maybe futilely) as my dogs react less and less that the other dog will realize that it isn't fun anymore. Also, if their dog is the only one barking I'm hoping that the neighbours will realize that there's no more excuses for their dog's behaviour. We're certainly entitled to be in our own backyard!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

GatorBytes said:


> Maybe an air horn as a deterrent, scare the crap out of it




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

This is how out trainer seperated dogs in class that would never shur up or would bark at each other relentlessly. But it wasn't a horn it was just a bottle of compressed air that made a very loud hiss. They sell them at most pet stores. It may break the barking for a while or may not work at all. Some dogs just never get it, and it also needs to be used with some form of training. It sounds like your neighbor isn't too much into any training. But the air cans aren't expensive and may be worth a try. Id try it without your dog being outside as he isn't the one thats doing anything wrong.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We've used the air horn and it does work to some degree, but only temporarily. They also respond to pet corrector in a can. Its just compressed air that makes a swooshing sound. What about adding an electric wire to the bottom of the fence and work with Delgado to avoid it?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Nigel said:


> We've used the air horn and it does work to some degree, but only temporarily. They also respond to pet corrector in a can. Its just compressed air that makes a swooshing sound. What about adding an electric wire to the bottom of the fence and work with Delgado to avoid it?


My parents have one acre fenced in for the dog run, there's a hot wire running about 1' from the ground around the entire thing. Delgado has a healthy respect for electric fences after being zapped by it when he was a puppy.

Delgado doesn't fence fight back, he barks but that's it there's no touching the fence. I don't think a hot wire will help in his case as he'll just move 2' back and continue to bark.

Delgado is actually getting to the point he will bark once or twice but then almost automatically come back up on the deck and into the house. I think it's the alert training helping in this situation

For alerts, I trained him to run to the door if someone knocks and bark once, then come back to me and sit quietly in front of me until I give the "what is it" command and he'll lead me to the source. Or if he hears Jazzy whine at the door to be let out, he'll come and sit in front of me and whine once then wait for me to give the command and will leave me to the door where Jazzy is waiting. He does the same if he wants to go outside as well

That training seems to be slowly kicking in for this particular scenario, up until yesterday he realized that the dog couldn't come through the fence and I was calling him off so he didn't have to deal with the problem. He would bark at the dog to let me know the dog was there and job done he would come inside no problem. 

Now that he knows the dog can be reached under the gate I'm worried the other dog will continue to do that and get hurt or Delgado will even lure the dog there by barking over at the gate so he can get it.

When the dog is barking and scratching at the fence while my dogs are inside I've taught Delgado not to respond and to go lie down quietly on his bed. He gets a verbal correction if he responds and the command to go to his place, if he does it automatically he gets mega praise and treats even while the other dog is barking


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

What about motion sensor activated citranella sprayers for cats. Put them at the gates or wherever he tries to get under the fence.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The separation between the two fences is about 2 1/2 feet or so and the fencing we chose is not permanent, easily moved. 

We added it to the one side of the property where our property lines meet. In our case it didn't take up much space. 

Yes you certainly do have the right to use and enjoy your backyard and I hope you find a resolution that works for you. I understand how frustrating it can be. 




Shade said:


> Our backyard is a decent size but not large enough for a second fence. unfortunately.
> 
> I am hoping (maybe futilely) as my dogs react less and less that the other dog will realize that it isn't fun anymore. Also, if their dog is the only one barking I'm hoping that the neighbours will realize that there's no more excuses for their dog's behaviour. We're certainly entitled to be in our own backyard!


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## wghast (Jun 7, 2013)

Talk to the neighbors, and whatever you do, be very positive and cooperative - not confrontational or accusatory. 

The trouble with neighbors is that they live right next to you, so whatever access you have with them is the same they have with you. And if they're unhappy and unstable people - or you encourage that side of them to emerge - things can get extremely unpleasant around the hacienda. Also try to avoid letting your displeasure over their other habits intrude into the discussion too (very easy to do) which will work to sabotage your effort. 

Just approach them with a smile, shaking your head, and say "Geez! These dogs! What a pain they can be, eh? They really seem to be getting up each other's nose or something! Would be nice if we could get them to settle down or something. WHAT DO YOU THINK??" 

See? Position yourself and the other owners as parties-in-common: its "us" versus "them" with them being the dogs.

Also note that we're letting the other owners start the corrective part of the discussion and initiate the flow of ideas. They will feel less threatened and more like they are in control and part of the solution, even though you are actually leading them about by the nose. As you bounce ideas for "settling the dogs," bring up the fence gap and "Geeze; if your dog sticks his face through there when we're not around to stop things, they might actually get into a face-to-face fight and really hurt each other. Maybe we could ..." and then you launch some of your suggestions. Get that conversation going.

Of course, do all this in the realization that the other party might not care or be inclined to do anything. Enter with low expectations, so if they shoot you negative signs, you won't be as inclined to show disappointment - which they might see and correctly interpret, again sabotaging your effort.

If they ultimately leave the problem for you to fix, I'd suggest resorting to passive measures. Anything "active" that you might direct at the other dog (however satisfying inside) might be seen by your neighbors as an attack on them. Note how people can get riled up when in their cars and they are "disrespected" by another. The car becomes an extension of the driver. In your case, their dog can become an extension of their personal space. You attack that space (however justified) and you're attacking them. Then comes the poisoned meat over the fence, raccoon urine and dead fish in your gutters and windowsills, and the ever favorite slashed tires and gas fire burning across the yard. Or direct physical assault.

Remember that being "in the right" doesn't always make up for the price you might have to pay.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Do you usually take Delgado in to avoid the problem when their dog goes out into their yard? I might be tempted to just stay out there and let their dog go nuts for however long it takes. Even if you have to keep Delgado on his leash, just let their dog go nuts. At some point, it should either annoy the owners and they'll be forced to do something or annoy your other neighbours and perhaps they'll complain. The only way I would do this though is if I was sure it wouldn't have a negative affect on my own dog's behaviour.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

wghast said:


> Talk to the neighbors, and whatever you do, be very positive and cooperative - not confrontational or accusatory.
> 
> The trouble with neighbors is that they live right next to you, so whatever access you have with them is the same they have with you. And if they're unhappy and unstable people - or you encourage that side of them to emerge - things can get extremely unpleasant around the hacienda. Also try to avoid letting your displeasure over their other habits intrude into the discussion too (very easy to do) which will work to sabotage your effort.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, that's why I'm refusing to do anything to their dog and just correcting mine and preventing theirs from interacting. I don't want them to even think that I'm attacking them or their dog in any way, that could lead to a ugly war I'm doing my best to avoid.

My main concern is A) Keeping my own dogs safe *by* B) Keeping their dog safe



fuzzybunny said:


> Do you usually take Delgado in to avoid the problem when their dog goes out into their yard? I might be tempted to just stay out there and let their dog go nuts for however long it takes. Even if you have to keep Delgado on his leash, just let their dog go nuts. At some point, it should either annoy the owners and they'll be forced to do something or annoy your other neighbours and perhaps they'll complain. The only way I would do this though is if I was sure it wouldn't have a negative affect on my own dog's behaviour.


I tried letting them bark it out, but that's annoying for ALL the neighbours and I don't want to include them in on our little issue.

Both of my dogs will come and sit quietly on the deck with me, but no matter what the other dog will just keep going and eventually it just becomes just so annoying I just put them away for my own sanity. The neighbours have already demonstrated 95% of the time they simply don't care that their dog is barking and going nuts.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Nigel said:


> What about motion sensor activated citranella sprayers for cats. Put them at the gates or wherever he tries to get under the fence.


I'm very leery of doing *anything* to their dog for fear they'll take it as an active attack and either complain to the police/bylaw/other neighbours or just simply hate us. None of those are things I want to dabble in as we are next door neighbours


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I use a carabiner latch on my front gate to keep kids from passing by and flipping the gate latch open. Something like that may work for you to keep the gate from being opened accidently by the dog. Sorry that you are having to go through this I know what it is like. I have a neighbor who had been letting his dogs run loose and run to my property and fence fight with my boy. Then they told me that I needed to take a pleasant pill because the dogs were not hurting anything.:crazy:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> I use a carabiner latch on my front gate to keep kids from passing by and flipping the gate latch open. Something like that may work for you to keep the gate from being opened accidently by the dog. Sorry that you are having to go through this I know what it is like. I have a neighbor who had been letting his dogs run loose and run to my property and fence fight with my boy. Then they told me that I needed to take a pleasant pill because the dogs were not hurting anything.:crazy:


Interesting, I do already have one but the single! I just wasn't sure if they would feel offended if I put something that heavy duty on...then again it's not legally locked so they really can't complain. Hmmm

Right now it's a simple latch:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

OK so gate is locked! Temporarily barricaded until Saturday...then the fun can commence

So I'm outside to take the photos and look at the gate and sure enough the neighbours dog is out on the porch so I keep my dogs inside and go outside. The dog runs to the fence and starts growling at me! I'm thinking "Whoa dude, you have NO idea who you are dealing with. If my dogs saw you right now they'd be running for the hills knowing the WOM (Wrath of Mom - stolen from Laurie ) was going to happen.

So I casually walk down the fence line and of course the bugger is following me and I walk to the gate and wait to see what he'll do. He pauses in his growling then continues so I get fed up and GROWLED low and deep back at him! He pauses then growls back! 

I shook my head and my hand was *itching* for that garden hose believe me  Full on itching to give that little bugger what he truly deserved! It's very obvious now that the aggression is not just dog related...

The guy owner comes out to see what going on so I casually pick up the hose and start watering the grass by the fence. It's obvious my dogs aren't out and it's only me so he scolds the dog as it's continuing to growl at me and I casually laugh "yeah, he's just letting me know he's there" I call through the fence. He actually turned to the dog and I quote "don't make me get my shoes on and come down there!" I was biting my lip SO hard to keep from laughing out loud, it's a good thing he couldn't see me. He finally comes down and grabs the dog and takes him inside.

Before and After photos. Not pretty, but it'll do for 36 hours until Saturday morning







The gap really isn't as large as it seems, less then 3" at the lowest point. We're going to get a board and nail it over and leave the latch locked with the carabiner permanently


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I went back and read your first post and I don't understand this; 

To top it all off now the dog now realizes he can stick its head under the gate! There's no actual separate right of way for the backyard so legally we can't block off the gate as much as I wish we could as that would take away the neighbour’s access to their backyard through our yard. 

I'm confused, can't they have their own gate access? Sounds like some unusual property lines.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Nigel said:


> I went back and read your first post and I don't understand this;
> 
> To top it all off now the dog now realizes he can stick its head under the gate! There's no actual separate right of way for the backyard so legally we can't block off the gate as much as I wish we could as that would take away the neighbour’s access to their backyard through our yard.
> 
> I'm confused, can't they have their own gate access? Sounds like some unusual property lines.


No, we're in a row of townhouses. So we share a fence on the property line as with all our neighbours. When we moved in last year it wasn't finished so we had to do it and install a gate for the neighbours

If there was a path in between houses for a right of way then we would simply have our own gate and lock it with a padlock. However there isn't one, so we have to legally provide access at all times through our backyard so they can get to their backyard


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Here, this should help explain. It's the neighbour on the left hand side in the photo. Sorry it's a little fuzzy, I took it through the window screen


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ok, got it. I was picturing my own neighborhood. We are sandwiched in, but we all have our own. Makes sense why you don't want add any deterrence "tools" to your fence, poop, that is a tough situation.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Have these dogs ever met? What kind of dog is the fence fighter?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Have these dogs ever met? What kind of dog is the fence fighter?


Only through the fence, and I won't let them meet any more then that. Delgado doesn't do well with super dominant dogs and I know it wouldn't go well on either side

It looks like a lhaso mix, maybe around 15 lbs?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Definitely block the bottom of the gate. I can remember the terror I had when the previous neighbors lived there. Their chi would do as your neighbor dog is doing. Every time Woolf even poked his nose out the door, she would hit the fence barking and growling - and sticking her head through the fence (chainlink). We put actual cut bamboo up to block.

I can't tell from the pic if there are spaces/gaps in the privacy fence you guys share. If there is, they do have bamboo cloth you could run on your side. It would help in blocking the vision and possible noses being stuck in the gaps.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Absolutely, already blocked for now and locked. The board on the bottom of the gate will be installed tomorrow for sure

The gaps are tiny, you can see flashes of colour if something is moving but there's no space for noses or anything to get through or see through. The ground around the entire bottom of the fence line on our side has been built up so there are no gaps there along the fence line. 

There is a small gap between the fence and the framing for the fence but it's small enough that there's no way the other dog can stick it's nose through there.

I'm continuing to work on my dogs ignoring the other dog 100%, I'm at the point now where I will just enjoy being outside with my dogs. *As long as they are not barking back* then I will allow them to stay outside and let the other dog bark it's head off. If the neighbours won't correct or bring their dog in, that's not my problem anymore.


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