# Showing a coated dog + Critque



## suzzyq01

So I want to show Sonar, but not sure where? There are tons of AKC conformation shows around us, I would like to enter one and just see what happens. But not only is Sonar working lines he is also considered a coated dog. What are my options? Would we be dq if I entered an AKC all breeds show because of his coat? Thoughts and suggestions please. 

Photos deleted due to overly large size. MOD Andaka


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## Ramage

I have a LC that I have shown UKC and she's done well, but I showed her when she was out of coat. Although, on top of that, she's not much of a coat anyhow. She's one of the inbetween coats.

Why not show this guy in SV shows? They should start having LC classes at most of the shows soon.

I'm not sure about AKC. I think it depends on the judge. LC is not a DQ, but it's considered a fault ... so, some judges may see it as grounds for not placing and other judges may see it as a minor fault and still place if the dog is great in all other areas.


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## suzzyq01

Do I have to register him with the UKC to show him in a UKC show? He is AKC registered.

He is somewhat in between also IMO. 

Do I just look for SV conformation shows? How would I find one in my area? Is this through Schutzhund?

Sorry for my ignorance. Thanks for the advice


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## Liesje

To be in UKC shows you need UKC registration. However if there's a show coming up that you want to enter, you can get a Temporary Listing (TL) number which gives you 60 days (I think?) to process a UKC registration and have the points transfer over.

To be in SV type shows in the USA you have two options: GSDCA-WDA or USCA. Generally to be in these shows you need AKC registration, an official 4-generation pedigree from the AKC, and a tattoo/microchip verification form. Your dog must be tattoo'd or chipped. Depending on the age of the dog and the show (club, regional, national) there may be additional requirements. How old is your dog and are you a member of WDA or USCA?


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## wildo

How tall/long is Sonar, suzzyq1? In the second picture, he looks ultra compact. Maybe it's just the camera perspective?


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## PaddyD

It must be hard to judge a coaty in movement. The second shot looks like he has a rounded back and that could just be the coat bouncing. He's a beauty.


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## suzzyq01

Liesje said:


> To be in UKC shows you need UKC registration. However if there's a show coming up that you want to enter, you can get a Temporary Listing (TL) number which gives you 60 days (I think?) to process a UKC registration and have the points transfer over.
> 
> To be in SV type shows in the USA you have two options: GSDCA-WDA or USCA. Generally to be in these shows you need AKC registration, an official 4-generation pedigree from the AKC, and a tattoo/microchip verification form. Your dog must be tattoo'd or chipped. Depending on the age of the dog and the show (club, regional, national) there may be additional requirements. How old is your dog and are you a member of WDA or USCA?


Sonar is 18 months old (19 months on Oct 1), He has his AKC reg paperwork and 5 generations, he is also micro chipped. 

I am not currently a member of an association. Do you recommend one over another? I will definitely get the registration paperwork from UKC and see what I need to do for that and get the ball rolling. Thank you.


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## suzzyq01

wildo said:


> How tall/long is Sonar, suzzyq1? In the second picture, he looks ultra compact. Maybe it's just the camera perspective?


I think the last time I measured it was around 26" I will retake another measurement tonight as that was a few months ago. He is a big boy, huge head and paws. He is still very lean though.


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## Liesje

This is what you need for the UKC (I would also include photos of him from the front and from each side, they've started asking for these now):
United Kennel Club: Single Registration

WDA vs. USCA usually depends on your location and which has more shows. The nice thing is that you can attend WDA shows even if you are not a member, you just cannot enter national level events without being a member (not sure if this is also true for USCA). I am a member of USCA right now and am attending a WDA show next weekend. If your dog is older than 12 months then you need to send his 4-gen AKC pedigree (it must be the official/certified 4-generation pedigree, not any other types) either to the WDA or USCA along with their microchip verification form. This is a form you bring to your vet to sign and verify their chip. WDA and USCA each have their own on their website (note: if you get one done, I would just have the vet do both in case you join or show with the other organization later on):
http://germanshepherddog.com/members/USA Tattoo Verification Form.pdf
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/forms/VETERINARIAN VERIFICATION OF Tattoo-Microchip.pdf

Keep in mind that when the dog turns 24 months old if he does not have a working title (SchH or HGH) he can only be shown in the "open" (24 months untitled) class and this class is not always offered, nor do the ratings count towards a breed survey if that is your goal later on.

Hope that helps!


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## wildo

suzzyq01 said:


> I think the last time I measured it was around 26" I will retake another measurement tonight as that was a few months ago. He is a big boy, huge head and paws. He is still very lean though.


Wow! That's crazy. It's probably just me, but the photos make him seem so small! I really though he looked about the size of a border collie in that pic. Odd. I agree though, he's a great looking dog!

[BTW- you need to go into photobucket and resize those images to 800 x 600 before a mod deletes them...]


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## suzzyq01

Liesje said:


> This is what you need for the UKC (I would also include photos of him from the front and from each side, they've started asking for these now):
> United Kennel Club: Single Registration
> 
> WDA vs. USCA usually depends on your location and which has more shows. The nice thing is that you can attend WDA shows even if you are not a member, you just cannot enter national level events without being a member (not sure if this is also true for USCA). I am a member of USCA right now and am attending a WDA show next weekend. If your dog is older than 12 months then you need to send his 4-gen AKC pedigree (it must be the official/certified 4-generation pedigree, not any other types) either to the WDA or USCA along with their microchip verification form. This is a form you bring to your vet to sign and verify their chip. WDA and USCA each have their own on their website (note: if you get one done, I would just have the vet do both in case you join or show with the other organization later on):
> http://germanshepherddog.com/members/USA Tattoo Verification Form.pdf
> http://www.gsdca-wda.org/forms/VETERINARIAN VERIFICATION OF Tattoo-Microchip.pdf
> 
> Keep in mind that when the dog turns 24 months old if he does not have a working title (SchH or HGH) he can only be shown in the "open" (24 months untitled) class and this class is not always offered, nor do the ratings count towards a breed survey if that is your goal later on.
> 
> Hope that helps!


What is an HGH? I was going to try for his BH very soon (Feb/Mar) Would that be ok? We are tracking, would a tracking tittle be ok? What about AKC tittles? I was going to trial him in TD for AKC first, then do Schutzhund (since AKC is a little less strict) I don't want to throw too much training at him all at once, right now we are tracking and working on competition obedience. We are training ScH tracking style. Kristiaan De Sweemer was/is our teacher.

Tell me your opinion.....should I just shoot for ScH tracking and not trial until I am ready for that? (maybe not until this time next year??) or trial him in AKC tracking and see how we do in Mar/Apr? I need more time in each day, or a clone haha

This is all so new. Thanks for all your help.


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## suzzyq01

wildo said:


> Wow! That's crazy. It's probably just me, but the photos make him seem so small! I really though he looked about the size of a border collie in that pic. Odd. I agree though, he's a great looking dog!
> 
> [BTW- you need to go into photobucket and resize those images to 800 x 600 before a mod deletes them...]


It's not in photobucket it's on his blog page. I will have to resize them. oops.

He's a big boy. I will have to get a photo of my Siberian next to him. He dwarfs my Sibe, who is above the height for his breed standard at 24 1/2" and 67lbs for a male. 

Thank you, he is a handsome boy. :wub:


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## martemchik

I don't show, but I was at my first trial/show a few weeks ago and got to talking with one of our club members that has championed more than a few dogs. You're going to have issues in the AKC ring, some judges might just disqualify you, others won't place you. The coat is probably not the biggest problem, its that it will be very hard to see faults in your dog through the coat. He is also a sable, which doesn't help. According to this guy, having a black shepherd in a show is tough because it is so much easier to see the faults on an all black dog.

I wish you luck in showing, we have a few white shepherds training in conformation at our club, and they are automatically disqualified from AKC events. You have a beautiful dog, but you're going to have a hard time placing, much less winning. Its such a clear "fault" that I don't know many judges that would put your dog infront of a standard coat.


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## Liesje

HGH is the German herding title (dog works 300+ sheep). It must be SchH or HGH. The BH does not count because it is not really a "title". They do not recognize AKC titles or anything other than HGH or SchH1-3. Neither of the dogs in my sig with all the titles are currently eligible for WDA or USA shows other than the open class. I am not that familiar with AKC tracking but if you plan to do both, I would always train for the more strict. For example I like to do Rally and Schutzhund but I train all my obedience in Schutzhund because it is *way* more precise and stylized than Rally. Same for SDA protection vs. SchH protection. I would do the foundation training with the more precise, more difficult in mind otherwise you may be training habits that will be difficult or impossible to break if you plan to move to a different style. If SchH style footstep tracking is acceptable for AKC titles then I would train for SchH tracking.

With UKC you don't need any titles, just the registration. And age does not matter besides putting you in the right class if your dog is not yet Champion. I think it breaks down like this: 6-12 months, 12-24 months, 24+ months, Champions, Grand Champions.


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## suzzyq01

That's really silly IMO because it's not like for example a Collie or Sheltie isn't considered a "coated" dog but they have the same type of coat as a "coated" German Shepherd. Longer fur, more difficult to see the body and they show in the ring without issues. It's not really "fair" that a coated dog isn't treated the same and a stock coat dog. 

It's really discouraging to hear. I did want to show him but it seems like tittling him in tracking and obedience is more of the way to go. I'm not wasting my time or money to do that. I don't want to go to a show and not even place (not that it matters) because he has a coat. The thing that really gets me is he's no a true LC, he is stuck somewhere in between a plush and a coated dog. :wild:

Thank you for your help :hug:


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## Liesje

Why not do UKC? Where I show GSDs aren't that popular in the ring. It's not as easy to finish a championship but you get lots of points and ribbons!


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## Stella's Mom

Beautiful, what an awesome looking boy.


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## JakodaCD OA

not sure how many ukc shows there are in this neck of the woods

I would find yourself some "matches" and hit as many as possible, good for training , not as 'strict'..just to get your feet wet..At matches, you can do the conformation, the obedience and anything else they offer..much more laid back fun type training.

Lots of akc events in New England, they are usually listed on the AKC site.


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## Xeph

> I don't show, but I was at my first trial/show a few weeks ago and got to talking with one of our club members that has championed more than a few dogs. You're going to have issues in the AKC ring, some judges might just disqualify you, others won't place you. The coat is probably not the biggest problem, its that it will be very hard to see faults in your dog through the coat. He is also a sable, which doesn't help. According to this guy, having a black shepherd in a show is tough because it is so much easier to see the faults on an all black dog.


A long coat is not a DQ in AKC, so the judge cannot DQ the dog for that. Biting the judge is a DQ offense, but not being a coat.

It's not that it's hard to see faults through a coat...you can see faults just as easily in a coatie as you can in a standard coated dog if you know what you're looking at. It's that when there is ONE coat in a ring of standard coats, the standard coats are what's going to win. A coatie needs to be exceptional to be put up, and while Sonar is nice, there are too many things that an AKC judge is not going to like, and will not forgive.



> we have a few white shepherds training in conformation at our club, and they are automatically disqualified from AKC events


No they're not. They're disqualified from conformation, not performance.


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## suzzyq01

Liesje said:


> Why not do UKC? Where I show GSDs aren't that popular in the ring. It's not as easy to finish a championship but you get lots of points and ribbons!


I would love to, not sure how many events will be out my way. I will have to research it and find out. I do just want to have fun but I don't want to stress that I'm going to get ridiculed or not place and get DQ in the ring bc I have a working line, sable, coated GSD. With AKC that would happen (from my understanding), If I can do it with UKC I am in. Just need to do some research and see what is available in the New England area.


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## suzzyq01

Xeph said:


> while Sonar is nice, there are too many things that an AKC judge is not going to like, and will not forgive.


What is that? Please share I would love to know, I know nothing about conformation. I know the photos are a little angled but please critque if you can. I'd appreciate any feedback.


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## Xeph

The topline he's got would be a big turn off for many. They're looking for smooth, continuous, unbroken toplines. In motion, he likely roaches up a bit, doesn't he (topline goes a bit rounded)?

They're still looking for a straight, firm topline. It shouldn't change when the dog is in motion. His upper arm is also a bit short, and will restrict his motion. AKC judges want to see a shoulder that is as open as possible, with no lifting or moving from the elbow. His coat is his most notable "offense".

I don't want to really critique the pics you have, because how he looks is partially how you've got him set up (which needs a little work ). Aside from structure, AKC DOES look for a bit of finesse in the presentation of the dog.

Forelegs square under the dog, head up, looking "proud". No slouching forward.









With little change in motion


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## suzzyq01

Thank you for your information. I am going to reset up the photos tonight and take some more. Hopefully I can give you a better true view of him. 

I found this one near me, I think we will shoot for it and see what happens. 

The K-9 Connection


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## Cassidy's Mom

suzzyq01 said:


> The thing that really gets me is he's no a true LC, he is stuck somewhere in between a plush and a coated dog.


He is a long stock coat. There is quite a bit of variation among coaties, but there really isn't anything "between a plush and a coated dog" because plush is a descriptive term, not a recognized coat type. His coat is actually quite a bit longer than Halo's, and she's a long stock coat too.


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## JakodaCD OA

OMG a blast from the past ,,sorry to go OT, I looked at K9 connection site, I see jen leitao (sp) is the breed handling instructor...She was supposed to be my first handler on "Dodge" when I began to show him, ended up having a conflict, oh well, he ended up with a major reserve ..funny to see her name..


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## suzzyq01

Ok here we go. This was my attempt tonight. thoughts.....








Stack alone








Stack with help








Size comparison: Sonar is 26" tall, 30" long, 74lbs
Onyx is 24" tall, 26" long, 67lbs
















Head shot 


Ok....thoughts....


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## Xeph

He looks much better, but he's standing east/west in front, which you're not going to want the judge to see.

To correct it, grab the dog under his chin and hold him still. With your hand on the dog's ELBOW, turn the leg inwards so when you set the foot down and the foot wants to turn out, it will be held in a completely forward position. Do the same with the other foot.

Get his head up a bit more. This can be accomplished by putting the collar up under the dog's chin behind the ears and pulling up a bit. You won't choke the dog, don't worry. Use bait (any sort of food) to keep him occupied while he holds the stack. You can also push the collar forward a little bit to get the dog to lean forward and quit posting.

I have to say that he actually has a really nice rear assembly and excellent feet. Nice bone too. Would like a longer upper arm.

Do you have a grooming table and forced air dryer?


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## wildo

I think it's funny that I am jumping in on critique threads to offer... well... anything. But I've read a lot of them, and certain things I've retained. The dog's front legs should be parallel to each other, and the camera angle should be such that you _only_ see the closest front leg. In both of your side shots, we can easily see the front leg that is away from the camera. I am not sure if it was Xeph that said it or not, but "it should look like the dog only has one front leg- the one closest to the camera."


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## Ramage

What a difference those photos make. He is gorgeous. To heck with what AKC thinks, he's a very good looking boy.

For the record, you will NOT be DQ'd. His coat length, color, and bloodlines have no bearing on that. 

As for whites, YES they would be DQ'd from conformation but CAN be shown in any other performance event.

UKC is similar to AKC, but it's easier to finish a dog. AKC you have to win majors to finish. You could show 100 times and not get enough majors to get his CH. However, with UKC you need a certain number of points and only 3 wins with competition to finish a CH. In the long run, you have a better chance at finishing with UKC.

If you did want to show AKC, the trick would be to research your judges and only show under those that show a liking for working line dogs or dogs with longer coats.


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## Ramage

With my LSC, I am very careful about the dryer. I do use it, but I do not try to fluff her up like some of the standard coats do. You'll have to play around a bit to figure it out, but IMO you want to minimize the coat as much as possible on a LSC if you are showing AKC or UKC. JMHO


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## Xeph

I asked about the dryer because when the dog is wet down, you can blow any waves and cowlicks out of the coat. Blowing the hair towards the base of the tail with the grain will flatten the coat, allow the dog to look more stream lined, less frazzled, and will show a much better overall outline.

When the dog has hair that is curling back towards the head on the topline, it ruins the outline and makes the dog look unkempt.

Do NOT take scissors to your dog (aside from trimming the feet, as that is good hygiene, and trimming stray whiskers, such as under the chin).


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## suzzyq01

I do not have a grooming table. How would that help? With the placement of the feet? or just make grooming easier? I don't have a dryer either, I have looked into them but I normally just let him air dry in the summer and then I take him to the do it yourself grooming salon that has everything for $15. I will surely take him for a nice groom prior to showing, he needs a bath and to be brushed out. I just do maintenance brushing right now. 

Thanks for all the comments and critiques. Would love to hear anyone else. I will work on the feet placement.


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## Xeph

> How would that help?


Gets the dog off the floor, makes them more accessible for grooming. It allows you to step back, look at the "big picture", and adjust your grooming as necessary,



> have looked into them but I normally just let him air dry in the summer and then I take him to the do it yourself grooming salon that has everything for $15


If you really are going to show him in an AKC show or two....you're not going to want to do that. And even for people that do have "just a pet" I highly recommend forced air dryers. If you're not going to be big in showing, you don't need the best one ever, but I find them to be highly useful, particularly during tick season.

The dryer blows the coat open so I can see all the way down to the skin and I can do tick checks.

This is how Mirada looks on just an every day basis:









And this is how she looks groomed up for a show:









No cowlicks, no frizzies over the topline, croup brushed up so her butt doesn't look lumpy, withers brushed up so it doesn't look like she has a giant dip from neck to wither

Mirada on the table as we prepare for a show. I took this picture so I could "big picture" it a little later. But stepping back, I can see what I needed to brush up and the like, or smooth down to make her look better.


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## katieliz

he is a very beautiful boy, tho not the type of dog winning in the akc show ring. don't know about the ukc, have no experience there. also you'll want to be aware that the dog show world (in the conformation ring) is very, very political...what about showing him in obedience, where his winning would be based on something more than someone's opinion of how he does or does not conform to the standard.


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## suzzyq01

Wow what a difference!! He has weird "fly aways" on his sides. Is this something that can be blown out? There is a forced air dryer at the self groomed I use. It's awesome! I will have to take him and do it then take new photos for the difference. I've learned so much. I think we are going to show UKC. I filled out the form and have the photos, the 5 gen pedigree, and I will have the vet fill out the micro chip form. If I can get a TL for the show in November we are going to try it. It's good to hear that the photos made a big difference. I will enlist more help next time and have him groomed up. 

What do you mean when you said his front legs are too short? Or domethig like that...


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## Xeph

> Wow what a difference!!


Ding ;-)



> He has weird "fly aways" on his sides. Is this something that can be blown out?


Yeah, they can be. Part of it is timing your grooming (some things will "undo" themselves before you get to the ring if you're not paying attention), some of it is using products, some of it is just knowing some general tricks.

I try to get Mirada fully blown out early, and then during the 9-12 or 12-18 class, do her over once more, lay a damp towel over her back (to keep the frizzies away) and keep her like that until we go in the ring.


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## suzzyq01

katieliz said:


> he is a very beautiful boy, tho not the type of dog winning in the akc show ring. don't know about the ukc, have no experience there. also you'll want to be aware that the dog show world (in the conformation ring) is very, very political...what about showing him in obedience, where his winning would be based on something more than someone's opinion of how he does or does not conform to the standard.


I plan to do all of the above. We are doing obendience, tracking, and I just want to see way conformation is all about. If we place or win a ribon I will be stoked if we don't we don't. Always want to win but not going
In thinking that I will. I have several things working against us which is fine has nothing to so with him just his fur/color and lines lol if that isn't prejudice then i don't know what is lol jk


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## Liesje

If you send in your registration now you can probably get your registration rather than a TL for November. Then if for some reason it doesn't come, you can get a TL number at the show.


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## Ramage

If you ever get the chance to show under Malinda Julien (UKC) then do so. She is a big fan of working line dogs and judges very fairly.


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## suzzyq01

Thanks all. I posted new stacking photos for critique on page 2.


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## suzzyq01

suzzyq01 said:


> Ok here we go. This was my attempt tonight. thoughts.....
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> Size comparison: Sonar is 26" tall, 30" long, 74lbs
> Onyx is 24" tall, 26" long, 67lbs
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New photos..


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## PaddyD

Frame the head shot.


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## suzzyq01

hehe, I have a million like this. Helps that I'm a professional photographer and he is a handsome boy. 

Thank you.


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## suzzyq01

Blown out and groomed - today 9/25/11 (still working on the feet positioning)









Not groomed - 9/19/2011


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## Xeph

Better! What a difference grooming makes, no?

Also, I LOVE his short nails <3


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## horsegirl

so handsome!


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## suzzyq01

I couldn't believe the difference hard core grooming made. It took me about an hour and a half from the tub to being completely dry with the forced air blow dryer and a comb. The grooming salon I went to looked like a dog exploded when we left. BEST $18 I could ever spend to leave that kind of furry mess with them. I did offer to help clean up but they said no. I told her I would be back later in the week to do my husky. I think most people just come in and use the tub and towel the dogs off. She walked past me twice and said "wow your mommy is taking the time to get you all pretty," not to mention I think I also got a bath in the process and swallowed some fur lol :laugh:


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