# Grabbing by the Scruff - Bad? (Couple Questions)



## Dev_DeCoste (Jun 1, 2015)

Hey everyone,

So I have a very stubborn GSD pup and a very stubborn roommate. My roommate consistently tries to get my pup (only been in home for 4-5 weeks) to co-exist peacefully with his cat. However his cat is 9 years old and my pup only 8 months... The pup very obviously just tries to play with the cat but the cat wants no part of it. Since we live in a small apartment the cat gets cornered very quickly and starts trying to attack the dog, hisses, etc etc. The dog in turn freaks out, barks, breaks stuff and keeps going back to the cat... Since I don't want my dog or his cat getting hurt I told him to stop for now until the dog gets more comfortable in the house at least. However now the dog knows when my roommate gets home the door to the cat will be opened. 

For a couple weeks my roommate was seemingly okay with keeping his door shut but now he won't. And the dog keeps trying to sneak/force his way into the room. He won't listen to no when he does this. He still doesn't quite see me as his master yet. Grabbing him by the collar only causes him to pull and fight his way back to the door. However if I grab him by the scruff and guide him away that works. I don't ever hurt him. He never yelps or barks however he has tried snapping at me once doing it but then stops.

Any suggestions on teaching a very stubborn dog boundaries? I'm his 4th owner in his 8 month life so I get why he is struggling to adjust and being very stubborn but could really use some tips for teaching him boundaries without establishing any sort of negative relationship in the process. I've read that mother dogs will move their pups by picking them up by their scruff which is what gave me the idea...

Thanks!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I suggest keeping him on a leash in the house, when he goes towards your roommates room or the cat say "leave it" if he does, give him a treat, if he doesn't say "oopsies" and take him into another room with you using the leash as you would normally.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Your puppy is long past the age when mama would grab his scruff!

Gate the room or use a leash! 
If you continue to grab his scruff he's goint to redirect his frustration out on you and you'll wind up bitten, and if that happens, keep in mind it's your fault!


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## Dev_DeCoste (Jun 1, 2015)

Thanks guys. I kept him on a leash in the house for a bit. It helped some and truth be told I can't remember why I stopped doing it. I'll start to try this again. And Skooby- definitely. I know any negative occurrences are my own fault at this point. Which is why I'm doing my best to avoid them


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Dev_DeCoste said:


> Thanks guys. I kept him on a leash in the house for a bit. It helped some and truth be told I can't remember why I stopped doing it. I'll start to try this again. And Skooby- definitely. I know any negative occurrences are my own fault at this point. Which is why I'm doing my best to avoid them


You probably stopped doing it because it's a huge pain in the butt to be tethered to a puppy  haha. It's definitely best to use a leash because even if he didn't bite you, every time you reach for his neck he would shy away thinking you would grab him (even if it isn't hurting him).


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## Dev_DeCoste (Jun 1, 2015)

Yeah that's probably true. The leash gets caught on just about everything.. I also use the lead as his car leash now, just a big 15' training lead


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Crate the roommate. Not practical but a great mental image.


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## Dev_DeCoste (Jun 1, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Crate the roommate. Not practical but a great mental image.


This would fix everything. lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK a "real" cat dog situation! 

First see here! And note...there is only one rule in cat dog relationships...the Dog never chases the Cat! Details here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html

Moving on please stop grabbing your dog by the collar! It migh work fine now??? Seven months from now?? Maybe not so much??

Go to a thrift store and buy a used leash 4 feet cut the handle off it so it does not get caught up on a furniture, it's call a drag leash! Use that if you have to remove your dog from a "situation!"

Four owners in 8 months?? That can stop with you! Start here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

In the "who Pets.." link I only did the "walk part" the rest depends on the dog and the situation! 

And train "The Place Command" and do "Sit on the Dog!" "Place will be how you can "control" your dog once it's taught!

It's in here and go the Solid K9 training site "everything" you need to know can be found under "Free Advise!" 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6954690-post5.html


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Keep a leash or a tab on him to use, regardless if it is a hassle to have it dragging around or not. You are in the process of creating a hand shy dog. In this case a dog that can do some serious damage to your hand when he decides he has had enough of you scruffing him.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

To avoid the cat getting cornered get it some higher level areas to hang out. You can buy these cat boxes which are like 4 ft of the ground with some thing they can climb up. Make a shelf beside this and try to link areas so the cat can travel at a higher level. It doesn't take up much room. 

Get a puppy gate and put it on the flat mates room if they allow that. Have a chat to him/her and explain how you don't want either animal injured. It is possible.

The place command is essential as has been mentioned. Blanket on the floor. Dog go lie down and stay there. There are loads of info on this. I like Tyler MUtos version on utube.(and all his advice). It will be a test of your skills to call the dog back and direct into place without getting of the couch. You need the dog to listen to commands. Start with no distractions and work it up.

You can even a short leash at least something to grab. A leash pop to the side say at right angles to his spine work better than pulling him back against the forward motion. This flicks the center of gravity and triggers the brain to change modes. Pulling straight back triggers the brain to push forward stronger, (opposition reflex).

If grabbing by the skruff of the neck works I'd use it too. I don't think it'll make any dog hand shy, and I use it as well as i don't have dogs with collar in the house. It is rare and it is not fair on the dog to try pick it up by the collar but a redirection grab can work. What I might do is grab by the skruf and put other hand under dogs belly on front of back legs and more lift him out of there but he has the sensation of a hand on the neck too, if a dog is refusing to move for some reason.

I would start a regular exercise routine. Start to develop ball playing skills. Retrieve, Tug play, release, obedience for food reward, tug or toy/ball reward. Place command and leash pressure techniques. On leash practice running, walking slowly, regular, changing directions etc. Keep the dog guessing, be creative. Play search around the apartment for a toy you hide. Play search for a ball in the park etcetc. 

What I do with my cats if there is an issue between them and the dogs is pick up the cat, holding it by the schruff of the neck and under their bellies, so the can't escape or scratch me, show the back end to the dog to let the dog sniff it. If dog is too excited I'd verbally tell him to relax or give it a poke with my toe to correct it. Once the dog gets a sniff he may relax. It might be better to try the other techniques first, train up the dog so it listens to you. You might not need to do anything else.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

You've had some great advice from lots of experienced people. What worked best for me with my dog and cat was the place command. Once I got that bomb-proof, the cat can do the zoomies around the house, and Kyleigh just watches!

As for grabbing by the scruff ... well, I grab Ky by the scruff in all kinds of ways - in play, in stopping her from doing something, in major rough housing ... and trust me she's not hand shy at all!

One of the games we play is she has a ball in her mouth, and I grab her by the scruff (both hands, one on each side) and I shake her head back and forth and make growling sounds at her. She loves this game and it just pumps her right up! (Make sure you also teach - DONE - so the dog knows you are done and they can't keep going bonkers!) I worked on this during Kyleigh's first winter - I live in Ottawa, it gets really cold here in the winter and I needed to find games we could play indoors that would help burn some of that incessant energy!)

If you think you'll need to grab as a last resort (let's face it, sometimes it is easier to grab the scruff than a leash), incorporate grabbing by the scruff in play ... then your dog will know what's coming, and won't freak out when you do it to stop him from doing something.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok let's leave the OP out of this for a moment! People that "do" know what they are doing are different from people that don't!

When advising "newbies" I prefer to error on the side of caution! With that said if has "experience" dealing with dogs...no problem grab away!

If you don't...use a drag leash! Grab means different things to different people! 'We' don't know this dog or this owner! Clock is ticking and maybe they have a "hard dog" and in seven months "this" dog may decide "I don't much care for being "manhandled!"

Laying hands on the cat to "force" a relationship...yeah not a fan! No one I linked to endorses that and they are "experts!"

I was trying to get a semi wild cat "granted not smart!" into the house pass my dogs who were several ft away on there beds. They barked! The cat freaked! I did not let go of the cat until he sank his teeth through my finger nail!

That cost me 11'000 dollars and a three day stay in the hospital! Incidentally that same cat, slept with those same dogs for years until they passed away.

Control your dog don't worry about the cat! If your dog is under control, then the cats will show up or not...they are cats!

Madlab I have no problem whit Tylor Muto but it would be helpful if you give links.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

When my current shepherd was a pup and knew what "come" meant and chose not to oblige me...I'd calmly walk out to where she was in the backyard and grab her by the scruff of the neck and march her up onto the deck or into the house. Nothing hand shy at all about her today. Never used the scruff of her neck for anything else except goofing around during play like Kyleigh mentioned. I never felt I was punishing the dog by grabbing her scruff and retrieving her...it was just a collar of sorts with my arm being the leash.

I think when you have a better alternative for the dog than what you don't want it doing, both dog and human will be better served...and at times a "better alternative" isn't a bribe or play necessarily.

Dog snapping at you would be my bigger concern.

Lots of factors going on in your situation.....5 weeks with the dog is obviously a big factor as you mentioned. 8 months olds just full of piss and vinegar. Also, how strong is the dog's obedience on the basics? You might have a dog which was never been taught any basic obedience and has never been under any respectful command and control. I'd start from square one and build a solid foundation...and if at all possible, I would do my best to do whatever keeps the dog from freaking out over the cat and I'd put an emphasis on being proactive ...management unfortunately would be easiest but not in your case probably.

Dog's urge to mess with cat is much more "pleasing" than any resulting "displeasure" or better choice.

SuperG


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/user/BuffaloDogTraining/videos

Here's Tyler Muto youtube channel



> *What I do with my cats *if there is an issue between them and the dogs is pick up the cat, *holding it by the schruff of the neck and under their bellies, so the can't escape or scratch me, *show the back end to the dog to let the dog sniff it. If dog is too excited I'd verbally tell him to relax or give it a poke with my toe to correct it. Once the dog gets a sniff he may relax. It might be better to *try the other techniques first, train up the dog so it listens to you. You might not need to do anything else.*


Chip, I remembered you saying not to pick up cat and mess with it so I added my techniques of holding the back of the neck and underbelly, to avoid any possibility of scratching. I find it subdues the cat sufficiently. 

In your case, If you had her by the back of the neck, there would be no way she could bite you. 

From my experience when animals sniff each other they get the information they desire and show less attraction to the animal after. I'm not 'forcing 'relationship' as you put it, I'm desensitizing the dog, giving it a sniff under strict guidance from myself. Definitely don;t want the dog triggering into prey mode when lifting a cat up like that, so verbal control of the dog is really important.

I added the bit at the end to make sure this is the last step. Maybe that is not necessary at all. It could cause more problems done wrong. Hope not to commplicate the issue but people should start dissecting the animal communication going on and think about the dynamics and what can be changed to improve the situation


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

My two cents: I agree that the leash is a better, safer alternative for you but if you choose to continue grabbing the dog by the scruff, make sure that he feels your touch in positive ways as well. Someone, and I think it was Bailiff, said that as long as you were using your hands to pet, cuddle, reward, etc as well as to correct, you would not create a hand shy dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

newlie said:


> My two cents: I agree that the leash is a better, safer alternative for you but if you choose to continue grabbing the dog by the scruff, make sure that he feels your touch in positive ways as well. Someone, and I think it was Bailiff, said that as long as you were using your hands to pet, cuddle, reward, etc as well as to correct, you would not create a hand shy dog.


Balififf should have added...do as I say not as I do!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> https://www.youtube.com/user/BuffaloDogTraining/videos
> 
> Here's Tyler Muto youtube channel


Hmm well....I guess I'm just being nitpicky! Anyone that is willing can find "him!" He is in my list of sources. But if your going to cite him be more specific as to what "you" in particular are looking at! To JQP all of this info looks the same! 




MadLab said:


> Chip, I remembered you saying not to pick up cat and mess with it so I added my techniques of holding the back of the neck and underbelly, to avoid any possibility of scratching. I find it subdues the cat sufficiently.
> 
> In your case, If you had her by the back of the neck, there would be no way she could bite you.


 Aww...you caught that! 


Yes you are correct! The scruff of the neck is not how I got "Bit!" The cat started flipping out so I was now holding a buzz saw! I wanted to move him quickly to the garage so I cupped his butt in my right hand and that's when I got nailed!

That was "not" a cat that was going to take to a butt sniffing dog! Extreme cat! Yes, not the norm but..."they" as a group, also prove my point! There were four of them, abandoned by my "stupid neighbor!"

Garage cats for a few months! When they were allowed in the house, the dogs were not an issue! Dogs never screwed with them. Never any formal "introductions" the cats, simply, were pack members and not to be screwed with! 

Cats finally got that...the dogs were "safe" and they all got along fine. 







MadLab said:


> From my experience when animals sniff each other they get the information they desire and show less attraction to the animal after. I'm not 'forcing 'relationship' as you put it, I'm desensitizing the dog, giving it a sniff under strict guidance from myself. Definitely don;t want the dog triggering into prey mode when lifting a cat up like that, so verbal control of the dog is really important.
> 
> I added the bit at the end to make sure this is the last step. Maybe that is not necessary at all. It could cause more problems done wrong. Hope not to complicate the issue but people should start dissecting the animal communication going on and think about the dynamics and what can be changed to improve the situation


 Great insight so nothing to say here but thanks!


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## Dev_DeCoste (Jun 1, 2015)

Thank you all for the helpful feedback!!

First, of course I use my hands in positive ways as well. I play with my pup all the time and obviously have to use my hands to do so. He came to us somewhat pre-trained: House broken, Sit, (lie) down, paw and other paw. However since he is in a new environment and I am new to him he decides when he feels like listening. He's very food motivated, which helps a lot. However I'm still working on the dominance and boundaries areas of training. He is actually rather calm when the roommate isn't home. Relaxes, chews on his bone, sleeps on my lap, etc etc. However as soon as the roommate walks in the door he goes from 1 to 10 instantly as he knows the door to the cat is about to be opened. I have a small pull lead but it's literally 4" long and not very practical. I wish I knew more about the dogs history prior to me adopting him, I have no idea what he may have been through or if anything in his past could be causing training set backs. I know he is either very claustrophobic or has bad separation anxiety. I'm guessing it's the ladder but it honestly could be both. He freaks any time he is left alone, whether in the apartment or outside on his lead. His Thunder Shirt has helped out a lot with this issue but it's not completely fixed yet. Also, unfortunately I can't really do anything regarding the cats situation such as higher areas to hide, etc. My roommate is extremely stubborn and doesn't listen to any of my suggestions. So this really is on me to fix and get under control.


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