# Cryptorchidism and Neutering



## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

Question for you guys my almost five month old puppy (23 August 2018 is his birthday) hasn’t dropped his other testicle. His father is a very nice dog and no other pups from his line have had issues that they know of. I say that because I’ve read it is hereditary.

Breeders page http://rhode.meccahosting.com/~a0001a53/kappo_von_eisenwerk.htm
Pedigree Database
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=691780-kappo-von-eisenwerk

Anyways, on to my question, I know if his other testicle hasn’t dropped by 6 months or so it isn’t likely that it will. Kimber is a very big boy about 50 lbs already so I do not want to neuter him too soon because he needs those hormones so he can finish off growing.
However, I don’t want him to develope cancer or anything crazy if the other one stays retained. I’m caught between what to do and how long to wait before I neuter him. Any suggests, past experiences, and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Picture of him and then him and Lex who is 75lbs


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I spoke to 2 different vets about this with mine. Both were fine with me waiting untik he was 2 to neuter. I think @Jenny720 also had the same experience.

I think you are fine to let him grow up before you neuter


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I spoke to 2 different vets about this with mine. Both were fine with me waiting untik he was 2 to neuter. I think @Jenny720 also had the same experience.
> 
> I think you are fine to let him grow up before you neuter


That’s good news, but it is very frustrating because my husband and I are getting stationed in Italy and they are huge on shepherds over there. I was so wanting to show him. Keeping my fingers crossed the other drops.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

By the way I think mine was more like 2 and a half before we got it done. I don't think there is much/any risk of cancer at that young age for the retained one. I think that happens when they are a bit older if the retained one is still in there.

I think torsion is the only real concern in waiting until say 2 to neuter with a retained. I don't know how likely that is, or how the risk of that compares to the risk of neutering too young. I feel like risk of torsion must not be too high because neither vet I talked to sbout mine seemed concerned at all with waiting until 2


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

One of my boys, Levi, was a cryptorchid. I had him neutered this past November when he was about 2.5, and all was well. (Being stationed in Italy sounds amazing).


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

sebrench said:


> One of my boys, Levi, was a cryptorchid. I had him neutered this past November when he was about 2.5, and all was well. (Being stationed in Italy sounds amazing).


That offers some relief to waiting a while! The vet can’t even feel his other one.
But yes I’m pretty excited, kinda stressed about getting the dogs stuff together, but mostly excited.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Kimber is a very handsome boy! Since he was the only crptoid in the litter I had hopes it might come down even the vet made me think this but no luck. He had a small hernia to which did not go away but small enough not to be a concern. The vet was on the same page with waiting till he was two and saw no reason that waiting till two would be an issue. I known the vet did some X-rays same day right before procedure to look for the detained testicle- it helped cut down some searching time. I’m sure you are going to love Italy!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I had this happen with a male IW. I waited, without incident, until he was 18+ months before neutering. Because IWs have a very high incidence of bloat/GDV, I also had the vet perform a gastropexy (i.e., tacked the dog's intestines to his stomach wall) to minimize the likelihood of torsion in the future. Since GSDs also have a high incidence of bloat/GDV, I'd recommend discussing that option with your vet. Easy to do while s/he's searching for the missing testicle. Make sure that your vet is experienced in the surgery first, though. I used a board certified surgeon who'd worked with the greyhound bank because sighthounds can have peculiar (and deadly) sensitivities to certain drugs. 

Two final thoughts. First, keep in mind that while waiting to neuter has clear benefits for the dog (e.g., plate closures), it doesn't come without some risks (testicular cancer and torsion, mainly). And, there's often little warning until the problem arises --- with torsion, it's an emergency situation. Though the incidence of those risks may be small, when it's your dog it _feels_ like 100%. 

Second, I'm not at all familiar with the entry requirements for showing dogs in Italy (or anywhere in Europe, come to that). In the US, the presumption is that you're showing what is (or will become) breeding stock --- at least in classes other than veterans. So, unless the Italian dog fancy has a completely different approach, an undescended testicle is likely to preclude your options for showing in conformation. 

Good luck!


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## Gregc (Aug 10, 2012)

Wait. Till 2 years. (IMO)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Had a dog like that in the past. Had the retained testicle removed and a vasectomy on the other one so he kept his hormones intact.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

My male just turned 3 havent removed the retained testicle yet. I plan to sometime in the next year and leave the normal one intact. no issues


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

Your pup literally had the same thing going on as Kimber. His brother was also fine, and he also has a very small hernia. I wonder if that could possibly have anything to do with it. 




Jenny720 said:


> Kimber is a very handsome boy! Since he was the only crptoid in the litter I had hopes it might come down even the vet made me think this but no luck. He had a small hernia to which did not go away but small enough not to be a concern. The vet was on the same page with waiting till he was two and saw no reason that waiting till two would be an issue. I known the vet did some X-rays same day right before procedure to look for the detained testicle- it helped cut down some searching time. I’m sure you are going to love Italy!


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I have the same thoughts as well about waiting it is kinda a double edged sword, but I think him being so big I’m going to try to wait.
Yeah I won’t be able to show him in conformation unless it drops, that’s why I was saying I am kinda bummed. Really hoping the other shows up. 



Aly said:


> I had this happen with a male IW. I waited, without incident, until he was 18+ months before neutering. Because IWs have a very high incidence of bloat/GDV, I also had the vet perform a gastropexy (i.e., tacked the dog's intestines to his stomach wall) to minimize the likelihood of torsion in the future. Since GSDs also have a high incidence of bloat/GDV, I'd recommend discussing that option with your vet. Easy to do while s/he's searching for the missing testicle. Make sure that your vet is experienced in the surgery first, though. I used a board certified surgeon who'd worked with the greyhound bank because sighthounds can have peculiar (and deadly) sensitivities to certain drugs.
> 
> Two final thoughts. First, keep in mind that while waiting to neuter has clear benefits for the dog (e.g., plate closures), it doesn't come without some risks (testicular cancer and torsion, mainly). And, there's often little warning until the problem arises --- with torsion, it's an emergency situation. Though the incidence of those risks may be small, when it's your dog it _feels_ like 100%.
> 
> ...


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

How much did that cost you? I’ve read about this somewhere just figured it would be pretty pricey 


wolfy dog said:


> Had a dog like that in the past. Had the retained testicle removed and a vasectomy on the other one so he kept his hormones intact.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Lexi GSD said:


> I have the same thoughts as well about waiting it is kinda a double edged sword, but I think him being so big I’m going to try to wait.
> Yeah I won’t be able to show him in conformation unless it drops, that’s why I was saying I am kinda bummed. Really hoping the other shows up.


I wouldn't hold out a heck of a lot of hope for that other nut if your dog is already 5 months old.

Did you buy him as show quality? Will the breeder do anything for you-- lower price on another pup or anything like that?


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Did you buy him as show quality? Will the breeder do anything for you-- lower price on another pup or anything like that?


I was wondering the same thing myself, @Thecowboysgirl. Having been through this (when I was young and stupid), I now believe that breeders should offer a significant discount on cryptorchid pups to offset the costs of what has now become mandatory neutering; that or pay the full costs of surgery. 

In addition to a host of anecdotal observations, over the years, there's evidence demonstrating that cryptorchidism is heritable --- which means it's in the breeder's lines somewhere (see link below). That makes the breeder responsible. What does/did the breeder say?

https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1466&context=ans_air

ETA: Sorry to say this, but I agree with @Thecowboysgirl: That testicle isn't likely to show up at this point. If the vet can't feel it on examination or see it on film (did they scan/xray?), it's likely obscured by/in the abdomen which can mean more complicated surgery.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As far as I know it definitely is heritable.

I don't know about a discount because I don't think the surgery is any worse or more expensive than a spay which is standard for so many female pups.

But if I really wanted a show or breeding prospect I'd be hesitant to accept a pup with only 1.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Lexi GSD said:


> How much did that cost you? I’ve read about this somewhere just figured it would be pretty pricey



I believe it was the same cost as a spay but it was 30-ish years ago. Nowadays I would have the inside testicle removed after two years and leave the outside testicle intact because now I know better than to subject them to unneeded procedures. A vasectomy doesn't change anything for the dog besides recovering from a second incision. (personal opinion).


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is most likely heritable things can pop up in lines way back even if there are no signs, some damage from the how the umbical hernia was removed by the mother other factors I don’t know. There is no mandatory neutering. It would be up to you what you want to do as mentioned the retained testicle can be removed and the other chosen left intact. Some people leave the retained testicle even with the well known risks involved and are fine and some are not. Some people neuter when the dog has all the hormones since everything is working unbalanced. If you have a show contract and paid a show fee I would talk to your breeder if they are reputable they will give you pet price and refund money. I know retained testicle surgery is very expensive especially if you opt for laser surgery with optimal healing time. I do not let anyone cut my dogs open it is important to find a trusted reputable surgeon. There was a story of someone bringing there dog to a vet for a retained testicle removal and they removed a kidney by mistake.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Agree with everyone saying talk to the breeder about a potential refund/reduction in price for your pup if he was sold as show quality. I'm also curious if a vasectomy is more common in the UK since I've heard it's less common to spay/neuter over there. 

I will say, when my girl was diagnosed with mild SAS, my breeder didn't immediately offer anything (and I did not ask) but she did come around a little later with an offer. My contract didn't have anything in it with genetic defects aside from hips and elbows. I wasn't expecting anything from telling her about it, but wanted to inform her that her potential breeding candidate couldn't be used. There may be a possibility yours will offer compensation too.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Katsugsd said:


> Agree with everyone saying talk to the breeder about a potential refund/reduction in price for your pup if he was sold as show quality. I'm also curious if a vasectomy is more common in the UK since I've heard it's less common to spay/neuter over there.
> 
> I will say, when my girl was diagnosed with mild SAS, my breeder didn't immediately offer anything (and I did not ask) but she did come around a little later with an offer. My contract didn't have anything in it with genetic defects aside from hips and elbows. I wasn't expecting anything from telling her about it, but wanted to inform her that her potential breeding candidate couldn't be used. There may be a possibility yours will offer compensation too.


What is SAS?


Also OP, if you want to show just for the fun of showing, you may be able to neuter entirely and show in an altered class. I don't know that much about conformation but I know altered classes exist in some venues. I have a friend who shows her neutered male that way.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is SAS?


 
SAS - Subvalvular Aortic Stenosis - heart defect that is polygenic (and supposedly autosomal dominate) and no genetic testing is available for it in the GSD at this time(only confirmed once issue presents itself). She was from a repeat litter where the first litter was 100% fine. Cardiologist recommended her parents to not be bred together again and for my girl to not be bred.



To tack on to Thecowboysgirl's suggestion - UKC has an altered conformation class which is world wide so you may find shows in Italy.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Just to clarify a couple of things that I mentioned upthread. First, I used the term, mandatory, in a specific (but unfortunately unspecified) sense. My apologies for that. What I meant was that if the owner had otherwise planned to keep a pup unneutered/unspayed (as many do, for good reasons btw), all of the medical information that I've read as well as the vets with whom I've spoken strongly encourage owners to s/n cryptorchid pups. In that specific sense, consideration, at least, of s/n becomes 'mandatory;' it's not _legally _mandatory however. 

I also now feel that not only should a breeder be informed (cause it's heritable) but that they should offer some kind of arrangement to offset the costs of a surgery that the owner may not have planned. As well, any surgery is risky, more risky in some cases than in others. In my case, the cryptorchid pup went through somewhat complicated surgery fine (MIA testicle was in his abdomen) and was on his way to recovery when he developed aspiration pneumonia --- a likely consequence of the painkillers he was on following surgery. Back to the ER. After five days in the hospital, the vet bill was now con$iderable. For a procedure that I had not planned to have done in the first place in order to address a heritable condition with potentially disastrous consequences. 

I didn't ask for compensation and the breeder didn't offer. I simply told her what had happened and poof! she dropped all communication. (Later on I learned that several males in her lines had issues with testicular development -- quelle surpris). I put the experience down to an expensive and step learning curve and took my business elsewhere. After that experience, however, I wouldn't take a cryptorchid pup whether I planned to show it or not, but that's me.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

My crypto guy had testicular torsion at around 3 years old. It was a really painful condition and a $1,000 emergency surgery the day before the fourth of July.

I wouldn't wait again, and I would be sure not to buy a male with this condition in the future.


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I briefly talked to her and the studs owner about it and they were kind of in disbelief that his other one wasn’t dropped.
Basically said I should be patient...



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Lexi GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I have the same thoughts as well about waiting it is kinda a double edged sword, but I think him being so big I’m going to try to wait.
> ...


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I could post the whole conversation, but it started back on 30 November when I asked her if his brother has any issues.
This was the first breeding with that female though. The male has won several titles and as well as his offspring have never had any issues according to both of them. It is very frustrating, and yes she knew I planned on showing him. 



Aly said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > Did you buy him as show quality? Will the breeder do anything for you-- lower price on another pup or anything like that?
> ...


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I hadn’t had a male pup in sooooo long it slipped my mind. She said her vet never mentioned anything (I got him at 13 weeks old) somehow I don’t believe that’s true though. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> As far as I know it definitely is heritable.
> 
> I don't know about a discount because I don't think the surgery is any worse or more expensive than a spay which is standard for so many female pups.
> 
> But if I really wanted a show or breeding prospect I'd be hesitant to accept a pup with only 1.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Lexi GSD said:


> I hadn’t had a male pup in sooooo long it slipped my mind. She said her vet never mentioned anything (I got him at 13 weeks old) somehow I don’t believe that’s true though.



They can do a "dance" up to a certain age (6 months?). I had a vet tech/breeder try and insinuate my breeder sold me a male with two undescended testicles not too long ago. I ended up doing extensive research. My boy has both of his in the sack, though. You could always call her vet and ask if you don't believe her. My breeder gave me the litter vaccination paperwork with the vet info on it when I picked him up.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Lexi GSD said:


> I could post the whole conversation, but it started back on 30 November when I asked her if his brother has any issues.
> This was the first breeding with that female though. The male has won several titles and as well as his offspring have never had any issues according to both of them. It is very frustrating, and yes she knew I planned on showing him.


I don't think that's allowed per forum rules, but ask a mod to be sure.

If you didn't have some sort of guarantee from the breeder you probably can't go anywhere with it. I do believe some breeders offer some assurances on animals they sell as show or breeding potentials. But if that isn't discussed and in writing I don't know that your breeder even has any responsibility to do anything about it? Maybe a breeder will chime in on that.

I don't necessarily think your breeder is in the wrong...I am sure things can pop up that were not expected. They definitely can drop after 8 weeks when the pups go home. My pup only had one at 8 weeks and it was noted on his vet exam prior to my buying him. I did have an agreement to possibly make him available to the breeder for breeding but I did not buy him with the intention of breeding or showing him myself if that makes sense. His one testicle doesn't alter our lives at all, it just ended the breeding agreement I had made with his breeder. Had his other testicle dropped, she had wanted the option to breed him or collect him if he had grown up to be what she wanted. I was going to do all his health clearances anyway because I bought him as a service dog prospect so it was kind of a win win for everyone except for that other testicle never dropping. I don't feel like she did anything deceptive or incorrect. 

I would not buy another crypt puppy for a few reasons but I am not sorry for the one I have and I certainly don't have any ill feelings toward his breeder over it.


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I guess it is a double edged sword that this lady isn’t quite a breeder she had her very nice female bred to that male I posted in the original question. The males owners are in fact breeders, should I maybe contact them. The females owner has been less then helpful basically just saying his brother is fine. He was one out of three pups and the other is a female.
She wanted me to pay 1.8k but my husband ended up buying him for me for 1.4k which is a lot of money for a puppy that we aren’t going to be able to use like we wanted to. I love him to death, but ****. I just don’t know how to go about talking to them without making them mad. I don’t know....



Aly said:


> Just to clarify a couple of things that I mentioned upthread. First, I used the term, mandatory, in a specific (but unfortunately unspecified) sense. My apologies for that. What I meant was that if the owner had otherwise planned to keep a pup unneutered/unspayed (as many do, for good reasons btw), all of the medical information that I've read as well as the vets with whom I've spoken strongly encourage owners to s/n cryptorchid pups. In that specific sense, consideration, at least, of s/n becomes 'mandatory;' it's not _legally _mandatory however.
> 
> I also now feel that not only should a breeder be informed (cause it's heritable) but that they should offer some kind of arrangement to offset the costs of a surgery that the owner may not have planned. As well, any surgery is risky, more risky in some cases than in others. In my case, the cryptorchid pup went through somewhat complicated surgery fine (MIA testicle was in his abdomen) and was on his way to recovery when he developed aspiration pneumonia --- a likely consequence of the painkillers he was on following surgery. Back to the ER. After five days in the hospital, the vet bill was now con$iderable. For a procedure that I had not planned to have done in the first place in order to address a heritable condition with potentially disastrous consequences.
> 
> I didn't ask for compensation and the breeder didn't offer. I simply told her what had happened and poof! she dropped all communication. (Later on I learned that several males in her lines had issues with testicular development -- quelle surpris). I put the experience down to an expensive and step learning curve and took my business elsewhere. After that experience, however, I wouldn't take a cryptorchid pup whether I planned to show it or not, but that's me.


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

I did get paperwork from the puppies vet. I need to call and ask hopefully that’s something they would have charted if they checked.
According to her they didn’t even check



Katsugsd said:


> Lexi GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I hadn’t had a male pup in sooooo long it slipped my mind. She said her vet never mentioned anything (I got him at 13 weeks old) somehow I don’t believe that’s true though.
> ...


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

What upsets me is if she knew and didn’t tell me. Any vets I’d even been to with males in the past have ALWAYS checked for their puppy jewels.
If I had known and thought to check I would not have gotten him due to the increased risks involved 




Thecowboysgirl said:


> Lexi GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I could post the whole conversation, but it started back on 30 November when I asked her if his brother has any issues.
> ...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I also got a call letting me know before we picked up max if I wanted the puppy he had a retained testicle on his health exam with vet. He was to be a pet originally so that option did not change much. The breeder was upfront. I could of haggled with the price or moved on and passed on this pup but we wanted this pup and the entire experience was really fun. I still call the breeder from time to time to. I’m absolute crazy about this dog. 

I’m not sure why the breeder did not let you know about the testicle unless it was there and then not. I heard of testciles dropping and going back up. I’m not saying that’s what could of happened -I have no idea. I would not post the conversation with the breeder regardless it’s a private conversation. I would enjoy your pup and hope you work out whatever is needed with your breeder.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Lexi GSD said:


> I hadn’t had a male pup in sooooo long it slipped my mind. She said her vet never mentioned anything (I got him at 13 weeks old) somehow I don’t believe that’s true though.


Well, it is possible that it had come down and then went back up, as far as I know. Or, your breeder just didn't check or didn't tell you, which would be a bummer. No way to know for sure. Is your relationship with the breeder good otherwise? It's really water under the bridge i guess at this point.

If you have no shown before, what I would do is neuter him and learn with him in altered classes. Then, go get a real show prospect at some point and be sure he has all his parts or a guarantee


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## Lexi GSD (Jan 22, 2017)

She’s been helpful giving me advice on shipping overseas. So I guess the relationship isn’t bad.
I don’t know really I guess like you said it is water under the bridge at this point. 




Thecowboysgirl said:


> Lexi GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I hadn’t had a male pup in sooooo long it slipped my mind. She said her vet never mentioned anything (I got him at 13 weeks old) somehow I don’t believe that’s true though.
> ...


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