# Help with chronic loose stools and low weight



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

My 10 month old GSD has had stool problems pretty much since I got her. Here are her symptoms:

Loose stool- ranging from semi formed to cow patty. Occasionally watery. 
Orangish color
Goes a lot-often
Eats her poop and the other dogs
Always hungry
skinny-can see all the ribs. not gaining muscle. Gained 1.5 pounds in 2 months but also grew half an inch-inch.

She was just tested for EPI- negative. 
Results are tli-7.9 Folate-16.5 and b12-289.

I don't know where to go from here. She has been de wormed, been on antibiotics, tried different foods, including raw and LID kibble with a novel protein. No difference.

I ordered digestive enzymes in case it was EPI. Should I try them, even though it is not? or should I return/sell them. 

ANY help is much appreciated. I am so frustrated and just feeling down that I can't help her =( and honestly, I'm sick of picking up mushy poop all day.


----------



## BellaLuna (Jan 27, 2013)

I currently have the same problem with my 3 year old loose stools and underweight. I took her to the vet and everything checked out fine but still no weight gain at all she is just maintaining it . As for the mushy poop I have been giving her white rice to help tighten it up and it has seem to help her. Hope you can get some help and suggestions on how to rectify your situation ,best of luck


----------



## PINESTATE (Dec 30, 2012)

My pup had loose stools and low weight. For a while I fed her a mixture of rice, chicken and pureed pumpkin. That firmed her stools. The problem appears to have been a reactiion to her food. Solid Gold Large Breed puppy food and Orijeb large breed puppy food were not well tolerated. I started her on Fromm's Gold large puppy and initially mixed it with rice, pumpkin and chicken and very, very slowly increased the amount of the Fromm's kibble. Hope this helps.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What about treating her for SIBO? 

What supplements is she getting? HAve you tried Honest Kitchen's Perfect Form and probiotics?


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

What brand of enzymes? May need something more specific to healing as well as breakdown

I have a read that sometimes folate can mask a B12 deficiency therefore EPI goes undiagnosed

Your pup will still benefit from the use of enzymes as they break down the food making it more easily digested with or w/o an enzyme deficiency.

Did you list probiotic in there?

Did your pup have giardia before - may have a mild case and not shedding on tests - could be malabsorption issue caused by a variety of reasons

Orange poop is also an indication of lack of bile salts and/or too rapid of a transit time

here is human explaination of bile/digestion
Regulation of Bile Release


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> What about treating her for SIBO?
> 
> What supplements is she getting? HAve you tried Honest Kitchen's Perfect Form and probiotics?


Yes shes been on HK PF for a few months. and probiotics about a month ago. Didn't see a change.

Considering treating for sibo with Tylan.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> What brand of enzymes? May need something more specific to healing as well as breakdown
> 
> I have a read that sometimes folate can mask a B12 deficiency therefore EPI goes undiagnosed
> 
> ...


Enzymes are the ones from enzyme diane. 6x. I should get them tomorrow. Can I try it on a non EPI dog? No giardia that I know of but she was treated for coccidia as a puppy. Vet wants to do a round of panacur now. 

I am off to go read that link.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Be careful with overdoing on the dewormer. Rafi had parasites about a year or so after I adopted him. He also came with a serious loose stool issue that took me a good year to get straightened out. I gave him one dose of panacur and it messed up his digestive system for months!!!!!!! 

I am not big on antibiotics but I know Tylan has worked wonders for lots of gsds.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

By reading yours first and other people posts, remembering Lucy from 4 months when I got her to her being 1 year old, going through all these troubles and finally finding out the reason, I guess, her liver cannot cope with certain ingredient in her diet. 
If her stool doesn't smell the reek of something ill, as it often happens with sick dogs, most likely she cannot metabolize something. Some dogs cannot digest beef, some dogs cannot digest lamb. But be very careful experimenting with all this pharmacenalia, it is not difficult to destroy your dog's system completely by adding antibiotics ( just read this word - "anti-bio" - it is "anti-life" !), deworming tablets which are very poisonous ( many dog owners prefer to push 4-5 garlic cloves into throat once in two weeks instead of regular deworming, and deworm their dogs once a year only); besides, it is pretty costly to check your dog properly, you wouldn't get away just with a few hundred, it costs more.
I suggest you to start with rather light meals which, probably, all dogs can easily digest, and that is chicken and rabbit. Chicken and rabbit is a natural prey for the majority of canines, this food is low in fat and the type of protein isn't hard for the liiver. Beef, lamb and especially pork will put strain on her liver, will make it working hard, your puppy may have problem digesting one of these, but she also could be unable to digest any of these too nutritious for her liver meat.
Oats always was considered a remedy in such cases. Chicken must be a free-range farm chicken, not a factory chicken (they feed them with antibiotics there, and very often dogs develop nasty alergies to anti-bodies chickens produce). Boil chicken for 15 minutes in a small amount of water, remove, and cook the oats in remaining bouillon. Remove all the bones and add chicken meat into hot stew. Add spring onions while it is still hot. Later, if you see she takes it well, you can add apples, carrots, beets, pasnips and tomatoes. It is better to use oats as a grain, not a cereal. Well cooked rice could be used for change. Further in the course you will use raw chicken, chicken with bones in two months (just read on Internet which chicken bones are unsafe). If she gets better, you can try white fish fillets, salmon fillets and other fish, all boiled. The rabbit you can shoot yourself (LOL).


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Funny, unlike what David is saying, I was going to suggest that a lot of GSDs are allergic to chicken. My dog did a lot better once I took him off all poultry.
And I thought onions were toxic to dogs!
What are you feeding?


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I was doing raw, but it didn't help. Feeding Natures domain fish, to see if it was an allergy issue. Have also tried Honest kitchen. No change.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh, man. I feel for you. The digestive issues are a constant concern around here.
I felt like beating my head against the walls a lot of the time until I found a formula that works. Sometimes I would find something that worked for a while, only to get soft stools again and to have to go back to square one.
Have you tried pumpkin and probiotics? 
Also, green tripe?


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Lamb hearts with bark weat - once a week; salmon with rice - once a week; and chicken with oats - the rest of the week days. She has pork vetebras as a second meal, or capelins. All meat I add to cooked grain is raw, but I cook fish. A very dark thought was crossing my mind when she was younger (she is 2 and 7 now), but, gradually, she got better and she gobbles everything now. Forgot: I buy her cottage cheese and goat milk from the local farm when I go by there. The poultry you fed your dog, probably, was the poultry I just have warned of. It is not difficult to obtain your supply of true farm chickens from a small farm if you live in a rural area. They do not have a large number of chickens, they are not afraid of loosing them to desease, so, they simply don't bother to put all these horrid additive into their chicken's food. The story is different with big chicken factories.


----------



## LLM777 (Feb 4, 2013)

*Seemed to help...*

I just found what is working with my Zena (1.5 yo). I believe it has been a combination of chicken/egg allergy and yeast overgrowth from antibiotics. I got her off the "good" dog food that had potatoes/starch listed as top 5 ingredients and switched to Orijen fish and beef combo. (Evo had recalls.)

I also started giving her enzymes (nzymes.com) and yogurt at both meals. With this combo I have really seen improvement. The itching is very little now and her coat is coming in nicely. She's eating well and has possibly gained a pound or two. Her poop is normal now also. 

I guess you just have to keep trying something until you find the right combo. That's what I had to do.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Also - the diets shouldn't swap too frequently. Try for a week, at least. Her stomack needs time to get used to. That is why, for an adult dog with his/her stable and unchanged diet, it is not recommended to change it - it may cause diarrhea, hard stool and indigestion. Actually, the same is for humans. All these dieting, you know... The consequences could be disastrous.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

When i swap foods I usually try for a month or so. And with the pasture raised organic chicken, I couldn't afford that. It's insanely expensive here. 

Plan for now is:

The antibiotic and round of panacur vet wants to do. 

Digestive enzymes as a trial

Probiotics

HK perfect form

Keep food the same for now. Eventually I want to get back on raw. But I just need to figure this out first. 

And see how it goes from there. Ill adjust or change things as needed after a couple weeks of this^. 

Thank you all. Will keep you updated. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Capone , it sounds like you have a good plan, I'd stick with that for a bit, see how it goes.

No expert on foods here, but I would not feed onions to my dog, toxic. Unless your getting advice from an expert in the field, well I'd take some info with a grain of salt, if you get my drift

I also had a dog who did not agree with chicken,


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Just want to add that oats/oatmeal are contradicted with IBS...

Double boil "white" rice (2x water, 2x cooking time) and use starch water to help firm up and sooth inflamed tissues

Slipper elm tea or capsules too, but do abx. first, when done do slippery elm.


----------



## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Angus tested negative for EPI several times, including one negative test from a specialist. It wasn't until we took him up to Tufts that he tested positive. I wouldn't discount the possibility of EPI from one negative test.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Caitydid255 said:


> Angus tested negative for EPI several times, including one negative test from a specialist. It wasn't until we took him up to Tufts that he tested positive. I wouldn't discount the possibility of EPI from one negative test.


Wow really?! Well if this continues with no resolve after the meds I will def consider going through some where else. I would hope that is very rare though. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Capone , it sounds like you have a good plan, I'd stick with that for a bit, see how it goes.
> 
> No expert on foods here, but I would not feed onions to my dog, toxic. Unless your getting advice from an expert in the field, well I'd take some info with a grain of salt, if you get my drift
> 
> I also had a dog who did not agree with chicken,


Oh, I know. Haha. 

Thanks again. I get the antibiotic an enzymes today. Panacur I ordered myself for half the cost. It should be here Monday. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Oh, I know. Haha. 

Thanks again everyone!. I get the antibiotic an enzymes today. Panacur I ordered myself for half the cost. It should be here Monday. 

Gator is the slippery elm in the perfect form enough? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Capone22 said:


> Oh, I know. Haha.
> 
> Thanks again everyone!. I get the antibiotic an enzymes today. Panacur I ordered myself for half the cost. It should be here Monday.
> 
> ...


The site doesn't give mg., but with the other herbs in combination look great, the pumkin seed is anti-parasitic and good source of zinc (skin, coat, immune system), the papain (unripe papaya) is anti-inflam, pectin is good for metal detox, plantain (if leaf) is an astringent, slippery elm is mucosal to re-line the GI tract so bacteria and parasites cannot adhere to lining causing perferations leading to leaky gut.

Keep in mind that these things heal over time. 

Does Diane's have L-glutamine?


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I would definitely do tylan (for how long? 30 days I think we did on my foster),
Fenbendazole (Safeguard/Panacur) at 50mg/kg for at least 5 days.
....and try the enzymes. I would think Diane would help you on an initial dosing suggestion.

Keep in mind that things like Giardia damage the GI tract and so you may see poor stools for several weeks.
I generally send the giardia test to the lab, as many false negatives come from the in-house check.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Also talk to vet about B12 injection and add the kefir to the diet.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok thank you. Will do. I had a dog with giardia and the poops were much different than rogues. His were explosive, urgent etc.Hers aren't like that. But who knows. Doing the panacur (safeguard) for 6 days just in case. Ill update in a week, or less if there's a positive change. Unfortunately starting them all at once I won't know which helped, but I'm going to keep her on the enzymes the entire antibiotic treatment and then after a week or so, try weaning off of the enzymes and see how it goes. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Good luck. I went through similar issues with my first GSD.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

gagsd said:


> Good luck. I went through similar issues with my first GSD.


Thank you. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's stressful! And expensive :/ 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I was lucky... worked at a vet clinic at the time. My dog ended up with an unknown type of autoimmune disease (as well as giardia). It was called SLE by one vet, but he lived to be 12.... so who knows for sure.
The lab loved to get his blood samples over the years. Said it was "cool."


----------



## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

My guess would be SIBO. Tylan for 30 days and b12 shorts. Works like a charm for my epi girl as she still has SIBO flare ups every now and then.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

So it has been 5 days on baytril (strong antibiotic) and digestive enzymes. 4 days of panacur and probiotics (all at separate times of the day), with zero change. None at All. Still cow patties, going often and a lot at a time and still trying to eat it. Now what? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Did the doctor prescribe the Baytril? That is Cipro, used for UTIs.
If not, I would proceed with caution.
Adverse effects/warnings

Permanent blindness and vision loss have been reported with fluoroquinolones, including enrofloxacin.[4] Enrofloxacin was banned for poultry use in 2005 [5]
Baytril should not be used in rapidly-growing animals (for example dogs under 12 months - 18 months in large breeds, or kittens under 8 weeks) as it causes abnormalities in the development of articular cartilage.

http://www.petmedications.com/petmedications/baytril


----------



## Bellsthedog (Nov 22, 2012)

I have an EPI boy. Have you gone to the EPI4dogs.com site? Even though your dog tested negative, the people there have a wealth of knowledge that may help. To me, and I'm still pretty new, but your b12 looks in the low range.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Stick with the d-zymes and probiotics - healing doesn't happen overnight - the abx. will just kill the probiotics regardless if given sep. and 5 days is not enough - not like taking a pill for a headache

why the abx.? isn't a dewormer enough - what I mean is if giardia and pancur works but the abx is killing the gut - then what? Another abx./? Metro. next? What did vet say about Tylan for SIBO, if your dog doesn't have then likely will with all this stuff?


----------



## pkd (Dec 20, 2012)

Did your vet do a GI-panel? Samson had Cryptosporidium hiding behind his round worms and giardia. After a month of antibiotics he's fine. Doesn't hurt to check for the odd-ball parasites.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Did the doctor prescribe the Baytril? That is Cipro, used for UTIs.
> If not, I would proceed with caution.
> Adverse effects/warnings
> 
> ...


Yes, it was prescribed through the DR. she said it was a broad spectrum antibiotic. 

And I was wrong on my days. Today makes day 7 of baytril and enzymes and day 6 of panacur. Done with Panacur after today. 

I bought pre packaged raw in Lamb to see if that helps.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Bellsthedog said:


> I have an EPI boy. Have you gone to the EPI4dogs.com site? Even though your dog tested negative, the people there have a wealth of knowledge that may help. To me, and I'm still pretty new, but your b12 looks in the low range.


Yes I am a member there. I will post an update and ask their opinion. Thanks! I am going to look into the B12. I will ask the vet today.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Stick with the d-zymes and probiotics - healing doesn't happen overnight - the abx. will just kill the probiotics regardless if given sep. and 5 days is not enough - not like taking a pill for a headache
> 
> why the abx.? isn't a dewormer enough - what I mean is if giardia and pancur works but the abx is killing the gut - then what? Another abx./? Metro. next? What did vet say about Tylan for SIBO, if your dog doesn't have then likely will with all this stuff?


I think at this point the vet is stumped and jsut did the antibiotic as a precautionary measure. Which I normally hate, but I am so at a loss I just went with what she advised this time. I am sending you a PM.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

pkd said:


> Did your vet do a GI-panel? Samson had Cryptosporidium hiding behind his round worms and giardia. After a month of antibiotics he's fine. Doesn't hurt to check for the odd-ball parasites.


No, but shes been on antibiotics and 6 days of panacur, wouldn't that have knocked it out by now?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would have gone with Metronidazole, because that would also have addressed any parasites.
Baytril doesn't do that and it really puts the joints in danger. Seriously, please reconsider that one. If it hasn't worked yet, it probably won't, and it will only cause additional problems.
I once took Cipro, and it took a year for my ligament pain to go away. I have never heard of it prescribed for GI issues.
When I finally got tired of the pain and went to a specialist, he said, "Oh, we never take Cipro in the office here, we know all about that." 
And the vet should have known about prescribing it to young large breed dogs.


----------



## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

I thought I was re-reading an old post of mine  

We had almost exact same issues with our GSD from 3 - 10 months old. He had several fecal tests done, tested for EPI and in the end it turned out to be SIBO ... after a few days on Tylan we saw an amazing improvement. He was on Tylan for almost 2 months ... dose was slowly lowered before taking him off of it.

I see now that your vet didn't prescribe Tylan. I had to be pretty forceful with my vet to get Tylan prescribed. We tried every other antibiotic under the moon without any improvement.


----------



## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Capone22 said:


> She was just tested for EPI- negative.
> Results are tli-7.9 Folate-16.5 and b12-289.


Also to add, I would post your test results at Overview - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency - amazing forum and tons of info on EPI and SIBO. I am no expert, but the b12 is at the low end of the range. I'll have to go back to read if your vet recommended b12 shots.

Normal ranges are as follows: (note these rangers are different than what was included on test results from vet, but I don't have those in front of me)
tli - 5.7 to 45.2
b12 - 252 to 908
folate - 7.7 to 24.4

I looked up the normal ranges because your dogs test results looked quite different from Jakes (tli - 23.8; b12 - 654; folate - 38)

From Jake's results the vet and members at epi4dogs agreed he likely did not have EPI, but several members at epi4dogs pointed out that his folate level was high and suggested we try Tylan to treat SIBO.

I'm just trying to give you a comparison because in many ways your going through the same struggles we did with Jake. 

Also want to add that we took Jake off commercial dog food and consulted with a canine nutritionist - he has been on homemade dog food for 5 months and all health issues (digestive and allergies) are resolved. After going through **** for almost a year, it is nice to have a healthy dog


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

lzver said:


> I see now that your vet didn't prescribe Tylan. I had to be pretty forceful with my vet to get Tylan prescribed. We tried every other antibiotic under the moon without any improvement.


Many vets have no idea about prescribing Tylan for dogs. My vet is extremely knowledgeable, and yet when we suspected Hans of SIBO, he said that Tylan was for chickens and was dismissive about it.


----------



## pkd (Dec 20, 2012)

Capone22 said:


> No, but shes been on antibiotics and 6 days of panacur, wouldn't that have knocked it out by now?


It took a lot longer than that. Samson had been on Metronidazole, another wormer I can't recall, and then safeguard/panacur before we did more in depth tests. The vet ran a GI panel, tested for EPI, and several other things. Once we figured out it was cryptosporidium, the vet prescribed azythromycin for 7 days and Tylan for a month. Tylan must be good stuff! Samson also had low B12 and got a B12 shot from the vet.

I really hope your pup feels better soon!


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Thank you all! Her folate was not abnormally high though. Although I can get Tylan myself and try it out. I printed some info about the B12 from Texas A&M, the recommend supplementing when it is below 300, and hers is 289. So I will show that to her and see what she thinks. Thank you all again. I really appreciate it!!


----------



## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

Just throwing this out there since I'm sure your vet already thought of this - but has your dog been tested for diabetes? My cat had the same exact symptoms as yours (minus the eating her stool) and after seeing 3 vets, one finally figured out she was diabetic. Not sure how similar the symptoms are in dogs vs cats. 

Good luck!


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Did the doctor prescribe the Baytril? That is Cipro, used for UTIs.
> If not, I would proceed with caution.
> Adverse effects/warnings
> 
> ...


Baytril is NOT Cipro. They are both fluoroquinolone drugs but act differently in the body. Baytril is better absorbed by dogs. They are also not just for UTIs. Fluoroquinolone drugs are very effective for many gram negative and gram positive bacteria that invade the GI tract - e. colli, salmonella, Campylobacter, Enterobacter, Staphylococci (including MRSA), mycoplasma, and mycobacterium 

Blindness has been noted in CATS, never dogs, but it's very very rare (causes retinal breakdown). Really the only side effects seen with baytril use are GI upset such as vomiting and anorexia. Seizures and increased liver enzymes have been reported, but again EXTREMELY rare. Small to medium breed dogs it is recommended not to use between 5-8 months, as that is when they are going through RAPID growth spurts. Large breed dogs are contraindicated for slightly longer. They will not have a negative affect on mature dogs as they change how the cartilage forms, they don't change it once it has formed.

That comes both straight from the drug label and from the Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook.

So many people get these unjust fears of great drugs because they read inaccurate articles online (cefazolin injections for cats, rimadyl use in dogs, etc...)


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

As far as your dog, I would go see a board certified Internal Medicine vet. This is beyond the cope of your pet, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just like your general practice doctor, they are great at wellness and preventative measures. But when it comes down to complex, chronic disease processes, a specialist is much better equiped to diagnose and manage the case.

You could look at abdominal xrays and ultrasound, and abdominal fine needle aspirates to look for diseased tissue.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> Baytril is NOT Cipro. They are both fluoroquinolone drugs but act differently in the body. Baytril is better absorbed by dogs. They are also not just for UTIs. Fluoroquinolone drugs are very effective for many gram negative and gram positive bacteria that invade the GI tract - e. colli, salmonella, Campylobacter, Enterobacter, Staphylococci (including MRSA), mycoplasma, and mycobacterium
> 
> Small to medium breed dogs it is recommended not to use between 5-8 months, as that is when they are going through RAPID growth spurts. Large breed dogs are contraindicated for slightly longer. They will not have a negative affect on mature dogs as they change how the cartilage forms, they don't change it once it has formed.
> 
> )


They are in the same family. They are broad spectrum, and very strong.
The dog is 10 months old.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_star said:


> So many people get these unjust fears of great drugs because they read inaccurate articles online (cefazolin injections for cats, rimadyl use in dogs, etc...)



I don't like to get into arguments over the Internet, especially since we try to encapsulate so much into a short post. I do feel I need to answer this,however, because my experience is not from just reading random articles on the net. 

I do understand what a broad-spectrum antibiotic is. 

I used to be of those people who 100% trusted doctors and veterinarians, until I got into a few situations, both with myself and my animals, that were pretty bad.

In all of those cases, they tried to kill a fly with a bazooka instead of first trying a flyswatter. The results were long-lasting and permanent. One case went to the veterinary board, only to have them give the guy a slap on the wrist.

It is unfortunately all too common for vets and MDs to prescribe superstrong drugs for something that can be treated topically or with something far less toxic.
I do believe the mess we are in with the superbugs is because of overuse of antibiotics.
I do understand that most customers want to walk away with the quick fixer-upper that is a pill. But there are so many drugs that are prescribed and later result in multiple lawsuits for serious damage, that I feel their use should be cautiously approached.
Don't even get me started on surgery.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I just looked up my Bella's GI bloodwork results from A/M - this was 2 years ago:
Cobalamin 283ng/L (251-908 range) started B shots – continue to do so monthly
Folate 14.1 ug/L (7.7-24.4 range)
TLI 6.3 ug/L (5.7-45.2 range) 

She had a recent poop issue (hers is almost seasonal!), pancreatic SNAP normal, and I just started her on cheap (store) enzymes after a month of Tylan. She did not qualify for a study they are doing at Texas A/M - but your pup might if it looks like it could be IBD. Research - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences Your vet needs to contact them. My former foster Luka's TLI was a little higher than Bella's actually, but he was more symptomatic and he has been on enzymes on-going and does well. If Bella doesn't respond to these enzymes (knock wood, so far bouncing poops) I would go to the full preparation. She's 11 yo. I wanted to give you some info at similar results. 

But I would consider having the PCR fecal run. http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresource...tes/realpcr-canine-feline-diarrhea-panels.pdf to see if there are things hidden in there that can't be seen. 

Also think that EPI4dogs site is the place to go, and read up on IBD while you're reading. 

Good luck, hopefully it's something that can be found on that detailed fecal panel. It's pretty amazing - the rescue had it done for a dog who had things we had only read about.


----------



## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Ralphie had the same symptoms about a month ago. He tested negative for giardia, but my vet said it's very difficult to get a positive result without doing a stool sample every 48 hours or something like that. Anyway, she advised to use Safegard dewormer, but it's active ingredient fenbendazole also effectively eliminates the Giardia infection. Ahh, just realized SafeGard is the same as Panacur. She also recommended giving him probiotics while taking the 3 day dose of SafeGard and continue for a while until all the good bacteria is repopulated. I got this powder and Ralphie hasn't had a soft stool since.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Capone22 said:


> No, but shes been on antibiotics and 6 days of panacur, wouldn't that have knocked it out by now?


Maybe. If it's SIBO you need at least 4 weeks of antibiotics. The one of choice is Tylan, but tetracycline is an alternative. My vet doesn't stock Tylan but he does carry tetracycline, so that's what we gave Keefer when he had SIBO when he was younger. He had a negative giardia test, but a positive with the giardia antigen test, which is much more sensitive. 

Tylan tastes really bad, so you don't want to just put the powder in food, unless it's a dog that will eat anyway. You can buy in bulk and make up your own capsules, or order it that way. Here's the SIBO info I printed out and took to the vet when I requested the test, along with EPI: Bacterial Overgrowth - WSAVA 2002

Keef was on flagyl for a week or 10 days, and then 4 weeks of tetracycline. During that time he was on a prescription food (Z/D Ultra), and a supplement to heal his digestive tract (B-Naturals Digestive Blend). I kept him on the special food for a little bit after treatment, and then I started to transition him back to his regular food, which at the time was Natural Balance. During the transition and for a month or two afterward I continued the supplement. He ended up making a complete recovery, and could eat anything with perfect stools. Some dogs have a chronic form of SIBO, requiring a special diet and/or Tylan long term, but his was acute, possibly due to the giardia.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> They are in the same family. They are broad spectrum, and very strong.
> The dog is 10 months old.


I missed the 10 month old part, I apologize. I would be cautious, and honestly dont think I would want it to be used on my 10 month old pup. And yes baytril use in general be cautious with any broad spectrum antibiotic, but some of the things you cited werent even true. 

Baytril has never caused blindness in a dog. The retina destruction seen in cats happened after they were given EXTREMELY high doses for 30+ days. Baytril rarely has severe side effects. and I mean RARELY, as in again over dosing the animal for a period of time.

I apologize I don't mean to attack you online, thats very rude of me. But I just see some of these things and its stated in such a way that it causes FEAR. Fear instead of caution are two very separate things. And it can be dangerous when a qualified experienced vet is seeing things and treating it appropriately, and people online are getting an incomplete story from an owner, and we are scaring them away from proper treatment and potentially harming their pets! There is a reason it is illegal for a vet to prescribe medication or offer treatment without physically examining an animal. Because owners NEVER give you all the correct information. Because they arent trained to know these things.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Maybe. If it's SIBO you need at least 4 weeks of antibiotics. The one of choice is Tylan, but tetracycline is an alternative. My vet doesn't stock Tylan but he does carry tetracycline, so that's what we gave Keefer when he had SIBO when he was younger. He had a negative giardia test, but a positive with the giardia antigen test, which is much more sensitive.
> 
> Tylan tastes really bad, so you don't want to just put the powder in food, unless it's a dog that will eat anyway. You can buy in bulk and make up your own capsules, or order it that way. Here's the SIBO info I printed out and took to the vet when I requested the test, along with EPI: Bacterial Overgrowth - WSAVA 2002
> 
> Keef was on flagyl for a week or 10 days, and then 4 weeks of tetracycline. During that time he was on a prescription food (Z/D Ultra), and a supplement to heal his digestive tract (B-Naturals Digestive Blend). I kept him on the special food for a little bit after treatment, and then I started to transition him back to his regular food, which at the time was Natural Balance. During the transition and for a month or two afterward I continued the supplement. He ended up making a complete recovery, and could eat anything with perfect stools. Some dogs have a chronic form of SIBO, requiring a special diet and/or Tylan long term, but his was acute, possibly due to the giardia.


Rogue has been on tetracycline for a couple weeks(about 2 months ago) with no change. How long on that before you saw firm poop? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

katro said:


> Ralphie had the same symptoms about a month ago. He tested negative for giardia, but my vet said it's very difficult to get a positive result without doing a stool sample every 48 hours or something like that. Anyway, she advised to use Safegard dewormer, but it's active ingredient fenbendazole also effectively eliminates the Giardia infection. Ahh, just realized SafeGard is the same as Panacur. She also recommended giving him probiotics while taking the 3 day dose of SafeGard and continue for a while until all the good bacteria is repopulated. I got this powder and Ralphie hasn't had a soft stool since.


Yah that's what we used. Way cheaper. And probiotics also.  


So I went to the vet today rogue has lost weight since last week (when we started the meds) she's at 43 pounds now. It's all so frustrating. I'm dropping off a stool sample tomorrow for one last check and the vet said we could try the b12 although she doesn't think that rogues b12 is at all low. But she'll do the injections to humor me, basically. I'm really stressed out over all of this, and spending so much money guessing and testing. 

I'm reading everyone's replies, taking notes and researching. The vet brought up testing for thyroid but she's actually not very energetic vs. being hyper and other symptoms don't match. Diabetes I will look into. I did get a recommendation for an specialist in San Diego, If the b12 doesn't work that's where I'll probably be headed. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Good luck with everything! I think a specialist is a good next step. Sorry it's so frustrating 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Capone22 said:


> Rogue has been on tetracycline for a couple weeks(about 2 months ago) with no change. How long on that before you saw firm poop?


It was the prescription food that made the biggest difference - I switched him to it over a period of a few days, and within a day and a half (3 meals) of being on it, he had firm stools for the first time since we'd gotten him. Initially he was on I/D, which did nothing.


----------



## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Tylan tastes really bad, so you don't want to just put the powder in food, unless it's a dog that will eat anyway. You can buy in bulk and make up your own capsules, or order it that way. Here's the SIBO info I printed out and took to the vet when I requested the test, along with EPI: Bacterial Overgrowth - WSAVA 2002 .


Our vet has a liquid version of Tylan ... Very easy to administer with a syringe. Jake never fought the meds when we were giving it so I have no idea if it tasted awful or not. We always gave it right before a meal so he was never left with the taste in his mouth.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Good luck with everything! I think a specialist is a good next step. Sorry it's so frustrating
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Seconded - Hopefully you can get a definitive diagnosis followed by an appropriate and effective treatment... and soon!


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> I missed the 10 month old part, I apologize. I would be cautious, and honestly dont think I would want it to be used on my 10 month old pup.
> 
> I apologize I don't mean to attack you online, thats very rude of me. But I just see some of these things and its stated in such a way that it causes FEAR. Fear instead of caution are two very separate things.
> And it can be dangerous when a qualified experienced vet is seeing things and treating it appropriately, and people online are getting an incomplete story from an owner, and we are scaring them away from proper treatment and potentially harming their pets!
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No need to apologize, I did not feel attacked.

And it is good to see you backing me up regarding giving Baytril to a 10-month-old, which is why I spoke up. I thought it was dangerous not to warn Capone about this. 
As far as causing "FEAR" --- I give posters far more credit. The net is a great source of information, and most are capable of processing what is valuable and what should be taken with a grain of salt.


I know you work in the field, and I am sure the vets you work with are good, so I understand why you would say that experienced, qualified vets who do appropriate testing do not need to be questioned. 
But this one has been trying to treat this dog for months, without results. In fact, making the problem worse.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad and clueless vets out there. Even the worst students in the class have that DVM diploma on their wall. It is why I drive for half an hour each way, leaving dozens of offices behind, to see the one I found here.

Speaking of that, Capone, I would seriously find another vet. 
The fact that she prescribed Baytril to a 10-month-old GSD would have me running.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok thanks. I really like this vets bedside manner. I think we're all frustrated and I don't have all the money in the world or she probably would have done more testing right away. Ill update you all after I see the specialist. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Perdido (Mar 20, 2013)

From personal experience.... Lead and Mercury in the body can cause severe fatigue... Two years ago a smart MD tested me and found I had a low level of Lead Poison. I was dragging and it took me months to recover. I can imagine the same impact with a small dog. The Lead also prevented my absorption of B-12.. and it is interesting that B-12 can be a problem for dogs. Methyl B-12 is the best bio-available for the body... 

Also another MD told me all Drugs were really Poison. They are just poison for different things... and they hope to target the dosage correctly. But yes, all poisons have some side effects... The liver is one that is impacted a lot, because everything goes through it. 

In 2002 I failed an insurance exam because of my liver count was high. Another MD told me to take Milk Thistle pills.. as it was the only thing know to flush out the liver, which is like a sponge... and stimulate healthy cell growth. Since then my liver test results have been perfect, and I take Milk Thistle usually 3-4 times a week. Milk Thistle is a weed and probably is good for dogs.. google it.

As for Arthritis... societies that consume 6 mg of Boron a day have almost not Arthritis. It is a Mineral.. that helps keep calcium in the bones. Magnesium also helps. Google Magnesium Bicarbonate Water to see how to make your own cheap, and the many benefits.

MDs and Vets are not trained in natural cures... only drugs... and treatments... research yourself.. for natural cures to avoid drugs.. the internet is amazing. 

Also... Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) increases the immunity 300% with no side effects... they give it to dogs in lower doses too.. google it.. Skip's Pharmacy n Boca Raton is the largest provider.. It stopped the hives I have for 8 years... and that was 2 years ago. It also stops Arthritis and Cancer... and cures Cancer... and is CHEAP. They have used it for Aids and Cancer patients since 1985 !


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Pumpkin seeds contain the amino acid called cucurbitin, which paralyzes and eliminates the worms from the digestive tract. Pumpkin seeds have other health benefits too – they are loaded with protein, amino acids, fiber, iron, copper, phosphorus and magnesium, calcium, zinc, potassium, folic acid and niacin; all important nutrients to your pet’s overall good health.



Pumpkin Seeds: A Natural Solution For Worms | Dogs Naturally Magazine


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Benefits of L-glutamine covers:*

IBD, Colitis, IBS and other gastric problems
Cachexia (muscle wasting) in cancer
Wound healing
Ulcers
Reducing muscle loss due to MD, arthritis and certain autoimmune disorders
Immune system boosting and possible antioxidant properties
 
L-Glutamine | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

It facilitates the balancing of the intestinal flora, stabilizes the immune status of the gut, and aids in digestion and proper motility of the bowel. Since 70% of the gamma globulins come from Pyers Patches in the intestinal tract, and 90% of all toxins, bacteria, viruses and fungi enter the body through the gut, it only makes sense that we should concentrate our efforts on this organ system.
*I have used it for IBD, gastroenteritis of all kinds, hemorrhagic enteritis, colitis, non-specific diarrheas, absorption deficiencies, pancreatitis, constipation, obstipation, and food allergies*. It has helped in all of these conditions and has no adverse side effects. It is not a panacea for these problems, but it is very effective in aiding the healing process necessary for resolving these conditions. I have noted that homeopathic cases of mine, that I felt were properly repertorized but had not responded, were now responding with the addition of colostrum.

BOVINE COLOSTRUM: THE FORGOTTEN MIRACLE | Dogs Naturally Magazine


*The Leaky Gut Syndrome*

One of the major benefits of colostrum supplementation is enhanced gut efficiency due to the many immune enhancers that control clinical and subclinical GI infections. Colostral growth factors also play a role by keeping the intestinal mucosa sealed and impermeable to toxins. This is evidenced by colostrum’s ability to control chronic diarrhea caused by gut inflammation related to dysbiosis. Healing leaky gut syndrome reduces toxic load and helps in the reversal of many allergic and autoimmune conditions. For the healthy individual or athlete in training, colostrum supplementation enhances the efficiency of amino acid and carbohydrate fuel uptake by the intestine. More nutrients are made available for muscle cells and other vital tissues and organs. One of the reasons for the energy boost seen in most healthy individuals who use colostrum as a food supplement is this ability of colostrum to improve nutrient availability and the correction of subclinical leaky gut syndrome (41

Colostrum Article in the American Journal of Natural Medicine | SynertekColostrum.com


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Seacure for Pets speeds the healing of wounds throughout the body, repairs digestive organs, alleviates nausea and vomiting, stops diarrhea, supports the liver during detoxification, reduces the side effects of chemotherapy and possibly helps prevent or reverse cancer, prevents toxemia in pregnancy, rescues newborns from Fading Puppy Syndrome, helps elderly dogs maintain their strength and stamina, helps all dogs recover from chronic and acute illness, stimulates hair growth, reduces urinary tract infection, reduces or eliminates allergic reactions, prevents hot spots improves mobility, reduces pain, and even enhances the effectiveness of homeopathy and herbal therapies. 
That miracle food exists, and dogs love its taste. They should. It's an odoriferous powder made from fermented fish. 
*Invented to Combat Hunger*
Forty years ago, scientists at the University of Uruguay, who were search under the direction of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences for a way to feed starving children, perfected a fermentation technology that predigested fish, creating a highly absorbable protein supplement. Fresh, deep-sea whitefish fillets were broken down by marine microorganisms, then dried to create a fine powder. 
During the 1970s and 1980s, physicians in Uruguay and adjacent countries used the formula to save the lives of thousands of premature, underweight, or malnourished infants. In clinical studies, these infants showed significant improvement in weight and immunity factors (globulin and gamma globulin levels) within 30 to 60 days. No premature infants receiving the fish formula developed edema. When other infants developed edema, use of the formula caused its disappearance within 48 to 72 hours. 
Uruguayan researchers tested a combination of two-thirds mother's milk (my note: mothers milk = "colostrum")

Seacure for Pets 100g powder by Proper Nutrition

"SeaVive" is a combo of colostrum (40% immunoglobulan) and Seacure


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Awesome. Thank you for all the information. I got a referral from a friend for a really good Holistic Vet in Los Angeles. I need to call today. I think its about a month out for an appointment, so I want to focus on healing her gut during this time, until I see the vet. I think I am going to order that Seacure. I have heard of it before, but wasn't sure. Thanks!!


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Perdido said:


> From personal experience.... Lead and Mercury in the body can cause severe fatigue... Two years ago a smart MD tested me and found I had a low level of Lead Poison. I was dragging and it took me months to recover. I can imagine the same impact with a small dog. The Lead also prevented my absorption of B-12.. and it is interesting that B-12 can be a problem for dogs. Methyl B-12 is the best bio-available for the body...
> 
> Also another MD told me all Drugs were really Poison. They are just poison for different things... and they hope to target the dosage correctly. But yes, all poisons have some side effects... The liver is one that is impacted a lot, because everything goes through it.
> 
> ...


VERY interesting! Thank you!!


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Day 5 of kocci free and we have solid poops!!! We're also doing perfect form, probios, l glutamine and bovine colostrum. Please keep your fingers crossed this continues. 

The lack of nutrients have sadly caused erosion or weakening of we enamel on her teeth  I hope this is all behind us. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------

