# My Local County Board Considers Ordinance



## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

http://www.effinghamdailynews.com/local/local_story_036005508.html?appSession=814222488455862

Check out the comments also. I'm the one posting as "Responsible Dog Owner." This makes my blood boil, the idiocy of people. I just posted again but it may not be up yet. They must review comments before posting. I thought it was pretty much illegal everywhere for your dog to be in the road. If it wasn't, homeowners policies wouldn't pay claims to driver or motorcyclists who hit dogs in roadways. I also thought it was illegal for your dog to be on someone else's property. The only way of insuring both the above scenarios don't happen is to MANAGE your dog by having a fence, etc., as a physical barrier, as a backup to TRAINING as reliable a recall as you can. We all know that no recall is 100%.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: bookjunky4life I also thought it was illegal for your dog to be on someone else's property.


I haven't read the article yet, but I'm going to.

I just had to comment on this first. The above quote would only be true IF there is a leash law in effect in the area. In some rural areas there are no leash laws which means that a person's dog can roam freely.


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

Still, dogs are considered property under the law. It would be illegal for me to place any of my other property on their land. I haven't lived in the city, so I don't know specifically, but does a city leash law mean that the dogs must be on leash if not in a fence or on a tie out even on your own property, or that it must only be on leash if off of your property, regardless of whether its restrained on your property?


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm going to try to look up to see if the State of Illinois has any statutes regarding this. A municipality or county can only make laws that are more stringent and not any that contradict a state law.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

My opinion - dog owners need to be responsible with their dogs regardless of if the law requires them to be or not. My dogs are not the local county's responsibility - they are mine.

I've lived in rural America for most of my life where there are no leash laws. This has never given me the right to be an irresponsible owner.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The applicability of leash laws and their specifics depends upon the community. Here (North Little Rock, AR) dogs must be leashed if in your front yard. {I called about a specific neighbor that was a chronic violater}


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: bookjunky4lifeI haven't lived in the city, so I don't know specifically, but does a city leash law mean that the dogs must be on leash if not in a fence or on a tie out even on your own property, or that it must only be on leash if off of your property, regardless of whether its restrained on your property?


Each leash law can be different but basically the one's I've lived under meant that you must have your dog under control at ALL times. If you can maintain control of your dog without a leash, you don't need a to have him/her leashed.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes, but hunting dogs can't read property signs. and I think the idea behind the farm dogs is that they should be penalized for chasing animals/people away from their home and crossing the line. 
Yes, I know that it doesn't work that way and 99% of the times the dogs are just roaming.

As for areas that have leash laws, it can be written different ways. some areas require the dog be on-leash if off it's own property, others just require the dog be "under control"

most states don't have any laws governing beyond the most basic of livestock/pet issues.

I wanted to say something about this:
"Still, dogs are considered property under the law. It would be illegal for me to place any of my other property on their land."
you (generic you) aren't placing anything on their land, unless you put up a kennel or tie your dog on their property. Animals can't "trespass" just as your "danger" signs mean nothing if the person bitten is younger than a certain age. Now, if your dog causes damage on their property (kills livestock, whatever) and they can prove that it is your dog, then you are liable for damages.


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

I agree that dog owners should be responsible regardless of the law. However, I also see the absence of such a law a violation of property rights for the non-dog owners, whether it be those with the use of publically-owned roadways or private land owners.

I guess I'm being particularly ticky on the subject because I'm getting ready to close on a house that, while in the country, does have one close neighbor with three loose dogs. I'll be in a different county though, so I also need to check out their ordinances.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

bookjunky, if there are no leash laws, you are still allowed to call animal control about dogs on your property. if you catch them, they will come and pick them up and take them to the pound.
So, yes, even without a leash law you (the landowner) has the right to be free of nuisance dogs. It's just that the owner isn't required to do his part.

If you have livestock and they are being harassed by roaming dogs, it is legal to shoot them on sight in most rural areas


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

Dainerra, good point. Is there something the dog has to have done to be categorized as a "nuisance?" So in a roundabout way, the dog isn't legally supposed to be there (or can't be there if its deemed a nuisance), if you can have a city employee (or city contracted facility employee) come and remove the other person's property from your property. Its too bad the negative consequence (going to animal control) has to fall upon the dog rather than the owner. I would HATE to have to do that to a dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't know, most people I know have livestock, so all stray dogs are pretty much shot on sight. 
Growing up, my mom would give a dog a chance to go home. The second time she saw it around, she called the Dog Catcher to pick it up. The dogs never did anything but show up in the yard. 9 times out of 10, the dogs were friendly and she would have one of us kids go put a leash on the dog and tie it to the porch/swingset whatever until they came to pick it up


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## ShepherdsField (Jan 30, 2010)

I know a guy with Border Collies and they herd. They are very much under his control as they are trained. They would not be able to herd on a leash. 

And hunting dogs have to be able to chase prey. City rules do not apply in the country. I keep my dogs in a fence most of the time, but we do go out to run and exercise. I'm not an octopus and don't have the time or energy to walk them on a leash for 20 miles a day, so they run and play out of sheer joy and energy several times a day on our property for exercise. Chasing a ball or frizbee is much better exercise than lopping along with a slow middle-aged momma towing behind.

What gets me, is if a big dog is lose, everyone freaks out, but the same person who freaks out, will let their chi-mixes and Jack Russels and Beagles roam freely where-ever they want, and no one complains.


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

Where I live now, the neighbor 1/2 mile down the road on the section where I walk (because it has the least number of houses along it) has several rat terriers that he used to let loose a lot. In fact, I was talking to a neighbor of his that lives closer to him, and several of them had gotten run over. One day, three of them pestered-yipping and following right on our heels--my GSD Captain and I for over a 1/4 mile. I yelled at them to get home. They were not deterred by this nor at my 85 lb GSD.  He called them once but that was about it. Never tried to come get them or anything. On the way back by, I made sure to give him the dirtiest look ever and loe and behold they've been penned ever since. Either that or he got tired of replacing the run over ones.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

I completely disagree with you, bookjunky4life. In fact, I disagree so strongly, I would recommend you read the book "Merle's Door", by Ted Kerasote. Dogs, by nature, should be given a lot more freedom than we do give them, not just in the sense of allowing them to roam, but allowing them to LEARN. If these dogs aren't doing anything but crossing your land, or even sitting/laying on it, well, why does it matter? Guess I'm just grateful I don't have any neighbors close enough to complain, and I won't ever, because I own the land.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

just because a dog is left free and roaming outside does not mean that they are LEARNING. that can be much more easily accomplished by working WITH people, not to mention it's much safer.

I know, that for me, the reason I complain about loose dogs is that they don't just wander across my land. They poop, they carry fleas and ticks, they harass my livestock, they aggravate my dogs, and (personal pet peeve) they pee on my truck tires.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ohio's leash law is interesting. Your dog must be under your control. Dogs must be leashed or completely under the control of a responsible person or on your property. I believe there is mention about hunting dogs. And yes, they do not need to be leashed while being hunted. 

I will say that most hunters love their dogs, do a lot of training with their dogs, spend plenty on their dogs, and are generally very careful with them.

The idea that rural animals should run free is incredible. It sounds like a PETA thing. I mean dogs should do their own thing, etc, etc, 

Dogs will have more internal parasites, diseases, injuries, and cause more damage to property, livestock and automobiles. Why would any sane community want to introduce this in this day and age. Maybe in the days of covered wagons trains, dogs could be village dogs, but we have automobiled that go 60 - 70 mph, and dogs can cause accidents that cause human fatalities when people try to avoid them. 

As a cyclist, it reeks big time because bicycle wheels are an attractive nuisance to our four legged friends. The beg, "CHASE ME!" And many dogs will. So riders will carry pepper spary, Halt, and worse to protect themselves. Dogs can definitely cause serious injuries by causing a bicycle to crash. 

What are people thinking???

Dog's need more freedom? I suppose we should let them choose their own mates too?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People who have working dogs herding on their property still have to keep their dogs on their property. They go out and herd the sheep with the dogs. People who have hunting dogs are out hunting with the dogs. 

There is a huge difference between working your dog on your land, or hunting on public or private land with a dog, and letting a dog roam freely. 

Roaming dogs are a huge nuisance. 

It is the transplanted city folks that let their dogs run around loose, and we hear about them a month or so later whining about how their dog was shot, etc.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

selzer, am with you 100%.

I know plenty of people who let their dogs run free in WV, but they also have the expectation that their dog will probably be shot. They just don't care. Huge difference from anything we are talking about here though.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. My dog DOES learn when he's out exploring. I don't have to keep him on a leash, I won't keep him on a leash, and I'll oppose any politician who supports a leash law. I live where there isn't a road with a speed limit over 35 within three miles of my house. If Bear weren't smart enough to know cars can kill him (He is. I truly believe all those dogs out there who don't know cars kill don't know that because they never got the opportunity to learn), then maybe I'd be concerned, but he does know. Luckily, my father was a very smart man, and he purchased a significant amount of land on the ST. Marys river when no one thought it would ever be worth anything. Beyond my ten acres is retired papermill land, meaning all privately owned. Frankly, while the roads aren't mine, anyone down there "jogging or biking", shouldn't be, and my dog will let them know.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

if you don't own the roads, how do you know they don't have permission to be there? does the owner notify you whenever someone has permission to be there? 

as for the cars, for most dogs they don't have an opportunity to learn that cars are dangerous because their first encounter is their last.

Even if the speed limit is low, does that mean that people there don't speed? what about people walking on the other roads? after all, the roads are public property. Do you think it's ok for them to be possibly harassed by your dog? 

Yes, it is possible for dogs to learn while they are out alone. They can learn that running in front of a car hurts (if they are alive). They can learn that porcupines REALLY hurt. They can learn that skunks stink. They can learn that dead animals are tasty and stinky. They can learn that poisoned baits make them sick..

You get the idea. 
You say that you oppose any "leash law" you do realize that, as long as your dog is on your property, he wouldn't be covered anyway? only once he leaves does he need to be leashed or otherwise under your control? At the property line, your dog loses the right to roam free and the public's right to not be bothered/inconvenienced by a loose dog takes over.

I would never argue that it's wrong to allow your dog free reign of his own home. BUT it is not right to expect other people to be on the look out for him.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

I guess I'm not doing a good job explaining. There are only two types of people who should be on roads. People coming to see me, and employees of the Gilman paper company. This does not include joggers, bike riders, cars, or anything else.
I believe a lot of things I'm not going to get into right now, because clearly we aren't going to agree, but if people didn't speed, and weren't so quick to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do.
Ugh. I don't know why I even spoke up. bookjunky4life? You're right. Stupid county not passing the laws you clearly need. Let's pass another law. That'll show them.

*sigh*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dr. Doom, interesting name, btw, do you realize that there are people who actually speed up to hit a loose dog? 

When your dog bites, harrasses, or is accused of biting the wrong person, don't even bother to come on and rant about it. People who let their dogs roam freely are the people that are the reason for spay/neuter and breed banning legislation. At least, they are the ones giving HSUS and PETA all the ammunition. 

What in earth should a house dog need to learn about roaming the streets or fields???

That is like sending your four year old out roaming the neighborhood so he can learn about good people and bad people and how cars hurt when they run you over, and how nosey neighbor ladies do not like you making noise, and how milk chutes are easier to get through. And how you can slip under the fence to get into the local swimming pool.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

but, the road going to your house is a PUBLIC road. the road your mailman drives on is a PUBLIC road. Your dog should be free to roam all he wants on your property. All the leash laws in the world won't change that. I respect the right of a dog to protect his owner's property. My dogs won't let someone trespass either. If they are in the outter U of the driveway, fine. Once the cross the line into the yard, they are met by my dog. 

The law everyone is talking about is that your dog has no business on my property. Or in the highway running in front of my car. Or chasing after someone who is jogging along a public road.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DrDoomI guess I'm not doing a good job explaining. There are only two types of people who should be on roads. People coming to see me, and employees of the Gilman paper company. This does not include joggers, bike riders, cars, or anything else.


so your dog would recognize that the company hired a new employee? and that guy is out doing his job and doesn't need to be bothered by a loose dog?

or that maybe there will be a new supervisor one day who doesn't like your dog being over there and will call AC out to pick him up? Or maybe a new employee who just HATES dogs and will run him over on purpose?
I've seen people drive off the highway to hit a dog or cat. So it doesn't matter that your dog knows not to run in front of the car if the driver is out to kill him.

Again, I think we are comparing apples to oranges. Dogs loose and roaming the neighborhood harassing other people vs dogs who are loose and allowed to roam their own property. 2 opposite sides of the spectrum. No one wants to stop your dog from being anywhere on your property, with or without your supervision.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I ride bikes I particularly choose roads with less traffic. I ride in empty parking lots, I ride on fair grounds -- road bikes not mountain bikes. If you have a road that goes to property that is not your own, than it is not up to you to patrol it. You can be in for a major lawsuit if your dog harrasses the wrong person.


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## bookjunky4life (Sep 11, 2008)

Dr Doom - With regards to animal rights, etc., I do believe that simply enforcing existing cruelty and neglect laws would suffice in most cases. With regard to property rights, which I believe is utimately the issue here (as well as irresponsible dog ownership and neglect), and is something I believe in both legally and ethically, I believe it should be a clear statute or ordinance that another citizen's dog/property cannot be allowed onto my real estate property or another private or corporate or governmentally owned real estate property without permission. 

And, yes, the dog simply walking across my yard causes a nuisance. I am an avid gardener and do not want loose dogs peeing on or digging up or running through my flower beds that are expressly planted outside of my fenced in part of my yard for the obvious reason that I don't want my own dogs doing those things. I also have plenty of dog poop to pick up for my own two large dogs and shouldn't have to be watching every step in my unfenced yard because loose dogs are pooping there, nor should I have to pick up their dogs poop, nor to I want the owner coming onto my property to pick up their dogs' poop. Additionally, even another dog coming on my property will solicit a HUGE ruckus from my dogs. I know this and am going to the expense to privacy fence my entire side I share with the neighbor. 

If you want your dog to roam, take him/her to remote wildnerness area for an off leash hike where it is allowed. Take them on a long line to a park. A dog park. There are options. I guarantee you when I walk my dogs that if I give them the go ahead that they are allowed to sniff and explore all along the roadway. 

And I ABSOLUTELY have the right, both ETHICALLY and LEGALLY, to walk on a public roadway being respectful of vehicle traffic and adjoining properties. I do NOT let my dogs poop along ditches in front of others' houses. I don't let my dog bark and carry on if he sees another dog contained (or not) in a neighbor's yard along the walk. I get over as far as I can far in advance of oncoming cars and sit my dog beside me holding his collar, no dog lunging at passing cars for me! I ABSOLUTELY have the right, again ethically and legally, not to be physically harassed by your loose dog while doing said walk. I do not have the right to do anything about your dog barking its head off from its fenced in front yard or picture window, however. I have the right to be annoyed but that's about it. 

I absolutely love dogs, probably more than most people. But I also love my property and the hard work and money I will put into it. This is both an ethical and a basic legal issue. The only thing I will agree with you is that yes, it is wonderful to allow our dogs to run around off a leash. However, you have to do it in controlled, supervised, smart ways. 

My grandmother's house is several acres far from the road and my relatives own the surrounding land. I allow my GSD off leash while supervised but was slow to allow this. His recall is pretty good and its reasonable in this situation to let him off leash. He swims in the creek and smells everything in site, gets to do a lot of marking. Its fun. Its like a doggy vacation. 

He's equally as happy to play ball in the back yard or go for a walk or a jog with the bicycle. Dogs are not children but they are so very like children. 

Rearing a dog and rearing a smaller child can be so similar. My friends have young children, while I have dogs. We catch eachother constantly saying "That's exactly my principle with Johnny." Or, "That's just how I deal with Fido in that situation." I see young children, sometimes only 5 years old, with maybe a 7 year old sibling, roaming the smaller towns around here. They aren't capable of making adult decisions, like timing to cross a road and not get hit, and neither are most dogs. I think the parents of such children are the lowest of the low. The foremost objective of dog or child rearing is to first keep the child/dog alive; we wouldn't procreate if we just let the young child wander off and get eaten by a bear. What would be the point? 

A few dogs do seem to be particularly car savy but dogs also get distracted by things that humans don't. Oh, wait, what's that smell, he looses his concentration on crossing the road or he takes off chasing a bird or rabbit, and SMACK! As a previous poster stated, it usually only takes once for the dog to be educated about cars. And absolutely there are sickos out there who try to run dogs over. Or what about a situation where your dog crosses the road at the wrong time and the person swerves to miss the dog and that person is seriously injured for life or killed?!


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

Alright, well, I feel somehow that if I just failed to respond I'd be slighting you all, and I don't want to do that, so I'm going to respond.
Selzer- I once frequented a forum for the Treo smartphone. There was an argumentative person on there named Selzer as well. Funny you should pick that same name.
Dainerra- These are NOT public roads, they are private roads. I just don't own them exclusively. They are built and maintained by the papermill, and I own right of way usage by agreement. The postman does not come down these roads. He delivers to a PO Box in town. Regardless, it wouldn't matter if he did. Bear isn't a menace, and he can identify people who belong, and people who don't. Absolutely. New employees of the papermill would never even see him. Current employees never see him. He doesn't bother them. He doesn't even leave my property very often (mostly only to chase hogs), and when he does he comes back on a whistle.
bookjunky4life- I can certainly understand your point, but I would prefer you come and talk to me as your neighbor than try to get another law written to support your cause. I would ensure Bear didn't go on your property anymore. 

I'll leave you all with this. I know I am in the minority regarding all this, and I don't expect anyone to change their minds based on my arguments. I will say that a dog that can learn to chase, and bring down, a hog without being gored by it can certainly learn to avoid a car. A dog that can also learn that while bringing down a hog is one thing, bringing down a bull is something else (something that should be AVOIDED at all costs) can certainly identify a papermill truck/employee over a bicyclist.
I'm not some crazy *******, and I do love my dogs. He sleeps in my house every night, and will always have a home with me, but I'm not going to treat him like a child. He's 7 years old, and has a wealth of experience and knowledge to draw on. All I'm saying is people who let their dogs make their OWN decisions might be surprised at how those dogs behave.

Peace and love, ya'll. Peace and love.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dr. Doom, 

I am a member of this forum and two other GSD forums and no others. Never have been. 

Selzer is my name. I am Sue Selzer, and I live in NE Ohio. There is nothing funny about my name, or my using it.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

Well, maybe Dr. Doom is MY name? Alright, obviously it's not. My name is JOhn MCDonald. I just thought it was funny because I'd known a person before on...ok. Nevermind. Good to meet you, Sue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Always a pleasure to meet a Tolkien fan. I think we have strayed a bit off topic though. 

I think leaving a dog to make his own decisions, I dunno. I suppose if the dog lives through the hog attack (I taked it the kind of hogs with the killer tusks in Ole yeller -- we don't have those up here), and learns to leave bulls alone, is never kicked by a horse, is never run over by a car, and doesn't bother people who are not up to no good, I suppose you could have a real partner, a critter that lives along side you.

But I prefer to keep mine safe and be the bearer of all that is good in the world. My pack and I do not live like the guy and his bears in the bear journals. I guess because they are not his bears, they are wild bears that had accepted him as a creature they were willing to live alongside. That is not how I see the relationship between people and their dogs. I prefer to teach them stuff for mental exercise.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

That's a good point. I don't know, it works for us. Yes, they are boar, so they have tusks (some of them, although he tends to go after females more often, who do not have tusks as large). He doesn't LIVE off them in the sense he would starve without them, but we do eat them. I enjoy the meat, although he doesn't get AS MUCH of it as he used to. I do use the necks and back as RMB's after they've been frozen for awhile. He knows cars are dangerous, he doesn't mess with bulls, or cows period. He DOES have a problem with horses, specifically PEOPLE on horses, but they only ride by once inj awhile, and he doesn't get close, just barks at them. It's the only time he does bark repeatedly.
Anyway, what we have works, and I enjoy it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How do the people on the horses feel about your loose dog barking repeatedly at them?

Is there a state leash law in Georgia? I do not know. We have one here.

I am a little partial to horses. A frightened horse (flight animal) can cause injury or death to his owner. We had a young girl out here a few years back. Family transplanted from the city. Kid always wanted a horse. She and her little sister were walking with the horse and she tied the lead rope around her to be able to carry something. Her younger sister made some kind of sound that frightened the horse, and the girl died. The girls were 10 and 12. Sad. Horse people out here said the first thing they teach kids in 4H, etc, is not to ever tie the rope to themselves. But the damage is done. I would be worried about a horses ridden by people who are not very experienced. The horse understands that and might be even more spooked by a predator.


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## DrDoom (Nov 7, 2007)

Well, I never asked them. He stays a good 100 yards back or so and just alerts when they're coming by. I shush him if I'm home, and he shushes. They are usually trespassing when they ride (there's a small trail along the back of our property that skirts the marsh for about twenty yards or so on my property), so I never really figured it mattered. He will continue to bark at them once they're off our property, so I guess I'll ask next time I see them. I don't even know where they're from, although there is a feed store up the road from us one way (Sadly I believe it's going out of business. Another local one bites the dust) and a horse ranch the other, I believe.


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