# How to identify a red and black puppy?



## UrSun

Hello everybody! I'm new to this forum. Very glad to be here!








I'm doing some research on choosing a puppy. I'd greatly appreciate if you could help me out.
My question is, if I want to have a red and black shepherd, like this:








NOT the color like this:








That means I want the puppy grow to be RED & BLACK rather than TAN & BLACK. What kind of color the puppy should have when it is about 4-8 weeks old? 
Any advice will be greatly appreicated! If you can post a picture of the puppy that will be great helpful.
Thanks in advance!


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## pupresq

This isn't an answer to your question but do beware photo adjustments if you end up choosing based on the pictures of the parents. Those two dogs could very well be close to the same color in real life. If you compare the grass (green being the opposite of red) you can see how much greener it is in the first photo and how washed out it is in the second.


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## Amaruq

I am not the best at judging touched up photos but I thought the first one was quite extreme. 

To answer your question you can not always tell at 4-8 weeks. Sometimes their coat color changes quite a bit when they shed out their puppy coat and grow in their adult coat. Genetically both dogs pictured above would be black and tan. Generally speaking just comparing them to their siblings is going to be the safest bet but there is a chance that a pup will not be as "red" as the first picture even if the pup is an offspring of the dog pictured.


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## UrSun

Thank you for the carefulness! I didn't notice that. Honestly I only saw a few german line shpeherd in real life. 
I just heard that there were coloring difference (red VS. tan). I was wondering if that difference very notable or is it very slight in real life?
Thanks again!











> Originally Posted By: pupresqThis isn't an answer to your question but do beware photo adjustments if you end up choosing based on the pictures of the parents. Those two dogs could very well be close to the same color in real life. If you compare the grass (green being the opposite of red) you can see how much greener it is in the first photo and how washed out it is in the second.


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## UrSun

Thank you Amaruq! 
I thought at least the color of the puppy's parents matters...
seems I can do nothing... I really wish I can have a red/black puppy.












> Originally Posted By: AmaruqI am not the best at judging touched up photos but I thought the first one was quite extreme.
> 
> To answer your question you can not always tell at 4-8 weeks. Sometimes their coat color changes quite a bit when they shed out their puppy coat and grow in their adult coat. Genetically both dogs pictured above would be black and tan. Generally speaking just comparing them to their siblings is going to be the safest bet but there is a chance that a pup will not be as "red" as the first picture even if the pup is an offspring of the dog pictured.


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## 3K9Mom

That top photo does look photoshopped to me!









My red and black GSD always looked RED (especially compared to his siblings):

At 5 weeks: 











At 4 months:










And now. His color has deepened over the years. I think his diet has something to do with it (he eats a raw diet). But he's always been a beautiful redhead. His sire is too. ( I met his sire and dam in person. His dam is a pretty black and tan.)


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## 3K9Mom

If you want to see more photos, you can see them at http://www.dogster.com/dogs/364122 (click on the link for the Dogster Photoplus photobook.) And yes, some of the "red-ness" depends on the lighting for the photo. I don't adjust for color. But flash, background, and daytime lighting can make a dog seem redder or more washed out. 

So if you're looking at photos from a breeder, ask to see a variety of photos.


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## UrSun

Yes it's very hard to tell the real color from online photos.








I'll keep in mind "comparing to other littermates" and use raw food. Thank you, 3 K9 Mom!








BTW, your dog is very handsome!




> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomThat top photo does look photoshopped to me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My red and black GSD always looked RED (especially compared to his siblings):
> 
> At 5 weeks:
> 
> At 4 months:
> 
> And now. His color has deepened over the years. I think his diet has something to do with it (he eats a raw diet). But he's always been a beautiful redhead. His sire is too. ( I met his sire and dam in person. His dam is a pretty black and tan.)


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## Amaruq

There are some reds that DO look extremely red in person. 

Tika is a sable but definitely a RED sable:










Her father: this is a scan and a decent amount faded out:










This is her and her sister Kai about 5 weeks old. Kai is holding the Golden down and Tika is by his muzzle. 










Kai as an adult:










Hope that helps a little. I would recommend thought that you find a reputable breeder and match the pup or dog with the best personality, drive and temperament for your situation as this is FAR more important than the color of any dog.


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## UrSun

Thanks! 
May I know what kind of raw food you usually use for your puppy?











> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomIf you want to see more photos, you can see them at http://www.dogster.com/dogs/364122 (click on the link for the Dogster Photoplus photobook.) And yes, some of the "red-ness" depends on the lighting for the photo. I don't adjust for color. But flash, background, and daytime lighting can make a dog seem redder or more washed out.
> 
> So if you're looking at photos from a breeder, ask to see a variety of photos.


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## Amaruq

Ohh another thing about color - compare on the legs NOT on the head.


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqThere are some reds that DO look extremely red in person.
> 
> Tika is a sable but definitely a RED sable:
> 
> Her father: this is a scan and a decent amount faded out:
> 
> This is her and her sister Kai about 5 weeks old. Kai is holding the Golden down and Tika is by his muzzle.
> 
> Kai as an adult:


It does help! Thanks! 
From the picture of the golden, Kai and Tika all look like sable. It's interesting.



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> Hope that helps a little. I would recommend thought that you find a reputable breeder and match the pup or dog with the best personality, drive and temperament for your situation as this is FAR more important than the color of any dog.


Yeah, the temperament and the personality are the next step of my research. I want to know every aspects of shepherd before I have one.









I think I have gotten the answer I was seeking about the coloring.
Still have a couple of questions about the puppy's ears. Will post tomorrow or so.

Thanks again, all of you!


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## UrSun

I got you! 
Puppies' head colors must have little variations, right?











> Originally Posted By: AmaruqOhh another thing about color - compare on the legs NOT on the head.


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## Amaruq

Kai and Tika are both sables. Tika has a much redder hue than Kai. Kai would be labeled the same as a black and tan (based solely on color) and Tika would be classified the same as a black and red (again talking strictly color or shading- they are both sables). I guess it is confusing but I don't have b/t or b/r so I work with my sables to try to make my point.









On their puppy picture you can see a little of Tika's front foot and it is a more mahogany color compared to Kai's tan front feet. Now is a GREAT time to realize of the 1,000's of pictures of Tika I cannot find a "true color" picture of her "redness".


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## foader

Safest way to ensure you're getting one the color you want is to rescue one.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: foaderSafest way to ensure you're getting one the color you want is to rescue one.


If he is in the US perhaps not every country has "rescues" per SE.


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: foaderSafest way to ensure you're getting one the color you want is to rescue one.


thats how i got exactly what i wanted









but yes, i agree... 1 - never choose a dog on color alone, 2 - never judge a dog from a photo only.

the breeder would be the person to talk to and can give you the best indication of what a dog will look like when mature. however, what one person/breeder may call B/R may not be what another would refer to as B/R... as puppies, they are only making an educated guess based on the parents, genes, bloodlines, and general appearance of the pup - but they can't determine for sure exactly how dark of a red the pup will be, or how many different tones the dog will have (body color vs head color vs paws vs chest, etc) once a dog is registered as black and red, it stays, regardless if the dog is at the lighter or darker end of the spectrum. mittelwest kennels are *known* for producing extremely red dogs, but i've met several dogs that are "redder" then theirs -- i own one.

lighting can do some pretty tricky things. for instance, my boy Tilden can look anything from red to orange to brown depending on the lighting and environment. his color is also a lot more solid - meaning his head, feet, body, etc are very close if not the same color. his only light points are in his feathered areas.

here are several examples:

low light mid day:









direct sunlight:









early morning, overcast:









indoors with flash (i think - my friend took this photo of him _on the sofa_







) this photo is closest to his "true color"









Keefer is a very well known dog here on the board, his color being one of the things that stands out - Keefer and Tilden are very similar in color, but they photograph very differently. to me Keefers color is "deep red" where as Tilden seems "bright orange"... it really depends on the day tho, and how wet they are









this is a group photo from a meet up we had not to long ago - believe it or not - 5 (maybe 6?) dogs in this photo are black and red (i'll let you guess which ones







)


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## 3K9Mom

> Quote:
> best personality, drive and temperament for your situation as this is FAR more important than the color of any dog


Absolutely! I liked Camper's coloring, but what I really liked was his sweet personality. You may have seen the photo of him lying upside down in my lap, grinning back at me on his Dogster page? He was a sweetie! The other two males were far more dominant and wouldn't tolerate being turned on their backs for anything. 

My husband and I often wonder other two little guys turned out because Camper ended up being a very high drive, very confident (ok, dominant) dog that requires a lot of work. The other two would have been nearly impossible for us to manage! Or... they're probably both couch potatoes!









As for diet, check out the BARF/raw food diet section here. I feed a wide variety of meat. I also feed veggies, eggs, and dairy. I have a sneaking suspicion that all of the fresh lamb, plus sweet potatoes, have something to do with his rich red coat. But I'm just guessing about that. 

However, his coat definitely became deeper when we moved from kibble to the raw diet.









And Ruq, great picture of the Partial Paq. But it sounds like you need to take some more, eh? Tika's full beauty should definitely be memorialized forever!


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## 3K9Mom

> Quote:
> how wet they are


and/or muddy! We have ruddy clay soil here. My dogs all are sort of "black and red" playing the muddy backyard these days.... even my tri-colored beagle!


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> And Ruq, great picture of the Partial Paq. But it sounds like you need to take some more, eh? Tika's full beauty should definitely be memorialized forever!


That would be my "senior" half. Lakota must be the most washed out GSDwannabe ever, she sure looks black and white in that pic.









I have some accurate pictures of Tika but ya think I can find them on Photobucket?? Nope. I have our website so messed up I can't find them there either.


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## nitetrane98

As with almost everything to do with any type of dog, genetics plays the biggest role. I remember reading somewhere that most GSD's with a darker red coat can almost always trace their lineage back to CH Lakeside's Harrigan somehow. I had one of his great, great grandchildren once and he was indeed quite dark red.
How they look in photographs almost always depends on the light source.


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## DorianE

AFTER PHOTO TOUCHUP AND ENHANCEMENTS DONE:


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Chris08As with almost everything to do with any type of dog, genetics plays the biggest role. I remember reading somewhere that most GSD's with a darker red coat can almost always trace their lineage back to CH Lakeside's Harrigan somehow. I had one of his great, great grandchildren once and he was indeed quite dark red.
> How they look in photographs almost always depends on the light source.


That would be the black in red in the AM or Can lines. German Showlines are known for their black and reds and none of them would go back to CH Lakeside's Harrigan.


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## UrSun

I see. That confirms again, comparison is important!








You have a Siberian as well? A sibe and a gs, that is my goal. Now I only have a poodle. 




> Originally Posted By: AmaruqKai and Tika are both sables. Tika has a much redder hue than Kai. Kai would be labeled the same as a black and tan (based solely on color) and Tika would be classified the same as a black and red (again talking strictly color or shading- they are both sables). I guess it is confusing but I don't have b/t or b/r so I work with my sables to try to make my point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On their puppy picture you can see a little of Tika's front foot and it is a more mahogany color compared to Kai's tan front feet. Now is a GREAT time to realize of the 1,000's of pictures of Tika I cannot find a "true color" picture of her "redness".


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## UrSun

I found it was very difficult to identify a real shepherd from rescue...isn't it?
I'm not a pureblood geek, but I heard shepherd hybrids are most likely ill-tempered. Please correct me, somehow I doubt that..




> Originally Posted By: foaderSafest way to ensure you're getting one the color you want is to rescue one.


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## BlackGSD

There are a LOT of purebred GSDs of all ages in rescues.


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> mittelwest kennels are *known* for producing extremely red dogs, but i've met several dogs that are "redder" then theirs -- i own one.


Thanks for the information. I'm in TX, I hope I can know a kennel here who breeds red shepherds...



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> 
> this is a group photo from a meet up we had not to long ago - believe it or not - 5 (maybe 6?) dogs in this photo are black and red (i'll let you guess which ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Let me guess....


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> My husband and I often wonder other two little guys turned out because Camper ended up being a very high drive, very confident (ok, dominant) dog that requires a lot of work.


That is cute.











> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> The other two would have been nearly impossible for us to manage! Or... they're probably both couch potatoes!


I am very envious of your meet up...








I hope my future shepherd could be a sweet couch potato.


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## UrSun

I used petfinder.com, and was trying to find local rescues. I did see some gsd, but even from their appearance details, I know they're not... 
I did heard about there are purebred gsd out there, but...



> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDThere are a LOT of purebred GSDs of all ages in rescues.


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## UrSun

Blood lines, that takes a lot of learning....

Can anybody tell me why this is NOT a shepherd?














> Originally Posted By: Chris08As with almost everything to do with any type of dog, genetics plays the biggest role. I remember reading somewhere that most GSD's with a darker red coat can almost always trace their lineage back to CH Lakeside's Harrigan somehow. I had one of his great, great grandchildren once and he was indeed quite dark red.
> How they look in photographs almost always depends on the light source.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: UrBlood lines, that takes a lot of learning....
> 
> Can anybody tell me why this is NOT a shepherd?


Because it is a completely different breed entirely, the Altdeutscher Huetehunde. Likely descended from many of the same sorts of herding dogs used to develop the GSD, but a completely different breed.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: UrI used petfinder.com, and was trying to find local rescues. I did see some gsd, but even from their appearance details, I know they're not...
> I did heard about there are purebred gsd out there, but...


There are MANY purebred GSDs in rescues. They shouldn't be hard to find, though you'll be able to find more of them if you work with actual GSD breed rescues rather than all breed rescues or shelters.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: UrI found it was very difficult to identify a real shepherd from rescue...isn't it?


No, not really. Most of the time people who are pretty familiar with the GSD breed and the different structures, coat types and colors it comes in can pretty easily tell if it is a purebred or not. Much easier with adults than pups.



> Originally Posted By: Ur but I heard shepherd hybrids are most likely ill-tempered. Please correct me, somehow I doubt that..


You are correct to doubt that. As a generalization it is completely false. Some dogs of all breeds or mixed breeds are ill tempered, some are not. It depends on the individual dog.


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## UrSun

It really looks like a weird color shepherd...










Like a long-haired solid liver shiloh or king shepherd or old style shepherd...




> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> Because it is a completely different breed entirely, the Altdeutscher Huetehunde. Likely descended from many of the same sorts of herding dogs used to develop the GSD, but a completely different breed.


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## Chris Wild

Way too light and orange/red to be liver.







Liver is more brown, like the color of a Chocolate Lab (and it's actually the same gene).

Plus if you saw in in real life, not a photo, you'd see they're typically quite a bit smaller than GSDs.


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## UrSun

Got ya~











> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWay too light and orange/red to be liver.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liver is more brown, like the color of a Chocolate Lab (and it's actually the same gene).
> 
> Plus if you saw in in real life, not a photo, you'd see they're typically quite a bit smaller than GSDs.


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## Amaruq

> Quote:
> Like a long-haired solid liver shiloh or king shepherd or old style shepherd...


An old style Shepherd is a marketing tool by most and sucker in people that really think "old style" Shepherds were over sized behemoths. 

A true "old style" GSD:


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## Fodder

petfinder is a database that any rescue, person, or shelter can use regardless of their knowledge and experience of the breed. try looking at this site: http://www.sheprescue.org/Available%20Dogs.html or this site: http://www.gsroc.org/adoption.asp and find a "non-real shepherd" that isnt already noted









you did pretty good here:










with the one exception of missing Lancer, but here is a better shot of him:










the 4th dog from the left that you marked (Levi) i'm not sure about... i'm also not sure about the pup to the far left... here is a photo of those same two dogs side by side where their coats are almost identical. weird huh?










either way, my point was to show you several variations of a "black and red german shepherd"


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## sungmina

shooping pictures to make dogs appear richer in color... figured I would try it out since another member played around with it =)


The original:









Edited:


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## Fodder

Jkim, thats wild!


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## Kayla's Dad

> Originally Posted By: Ur
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> mittelwest kennels are *known* for producing extremely red dogs, but i've met several dogs that are "redder" then theirs -- i own one.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information. I'm in TX, I hope I can know a kennel here who breeds red shepherds...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> 
> this is a group photo from a meet up we had not to long ago - believe it or not - 5 (maybe 6?) dogs in this photo are black and red (i'll let you guess which ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let me guess....
Click to expand...

You missed one!


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## Kayla's Dad

That's what I get for posting before reading the entire thread -posted the last before seeing Camerafodder's post. 

Both of the puppies on the far left are Black and red as well.


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## UrSun

Em...I thought this








was old style shepherd?












> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Like a long-haired solid liver shiloh or king shepherd or old style shepherd...
> 
> 
> 
> An old style Shepherd is a marketing tool by most and sucker in people that really think "old style" Shepherds were over sized behemoths.
> 
> A true "old style" GSD:
Click to expand...


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder try looking at this site: http://www.sheprescue.org/Available%20Dogs.html or this site: http://www.gsroc.org/adoption.asp and find a "non-real shepherd" that isnt already noted


Wow, these are beautiful dogs!! Now I think it really depends on which state the rescue is located.


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## UrSun

Did you select the dog and change the tone? Which tool of PS were you using? 
I noticed the lawn color didn't change...that's cool.



> Originally Posted By: Jkimshooping pictures to make dogs appear richer in color... figured I would try it out since another member played around with it =)


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: Everett54You missed one!












or-----


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## pupresq

I have seen many absolutely gorgeous purebred GSDs needing homes in TX. If you decide to rescue, you can find an AWESOME dog! Rescues rock.


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## UrSun

Thank you!








I'll wait for a while and see. I think later this year or next year I'll be trully ready for a shepherd.











> Originally Posted By: pupresqI have seen many absolutely gorgeous purebred GSDs needing homes in TX. If you decide to rescue, you can find an AWESOME dog! Rescues rock.


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## UrSun

Am I right I think what you meant a "true old style GSD" was the ones that existed before the division of west and east lines? 



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Like a long-haired solid liver shiloh or king shepherd or old style shepherd...
> 
> 
> 
> An old style Shepherd is a marketing tool by most and sucker in people that really think "old style" Shepherds were over sized behemoths.
> 
> A true "old style" GSD:
Click to expand...


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## Amaruq

No that is a misconception. At least to me it doesn't look much like a Shepherd at all. Maybe a Shepherd head but that coat looks like it belongs to Lassie not a GSD.



> Originally Posted By: UrEm...I thought this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> was old style shepherd?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Like a long-haired solid liver shiloh or king shepherd or old style shepherd...
> 
> 
> 
> An old style Shepherd is a marketing tool by most and sucker in people that really think "old style" Shepherds were over sized behemoths.
> 
> A true "old style" GSD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Amaruq

Most people seem to refer to "old style" Shepherds as dogs from the 60's and they tend to remember them "larger" that life perhaps. Ironic that Bernd (dog that I posted) was VA in the 60's which is the highest conformation title in Germany. American lines looked pretty similar. If you want to be technical you can't get any more "old style Shepherd" that the original:












> Quote:"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between *24" and 24 1/2"*, even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."
> 
> ~Captain von Stephanitz
> Originator of the breed


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## UrSun

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqMost people seem to refer to "old style" Shepherds as dogs from the 60's and they tend to remember them "larger" that life perhaps. Ironic that Bernd (dog that I posted) was VA in the 60's which is the highest conformation title in Germany. American lines looked pretty similar. If you want to be technical you can't get any more "old style Shepherd" that the original:


I see. So "old fashion large german shepherd" is a liar advertising. It is just as well that I didn't follow it.


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