# Your dog is likely NEVER going to protect you!



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I see it all the time - people get german shepherds or other similar breeds because they want a dog to protect them. And I think this is very naive and dangerous thinking. Realistically, it takes a very special dog to be appropriate as a personal protection dog. Not only does a dog realistically need a LARGE amount of training, but they also need a very specific temperament. Very solid, also able to appropriately distinguish between threat and safety, and the nerve to not back down when attacked back. Most dogs simply are NOT capable of that. I tell people time and time again - I would bet 99% of dogs do not have what it takes, and most will pick flight over fight if it came down to it.

My own horror story that just happened last night - I hope this makes people truly realize and think, and NOT trust their dogs so much:

Ironically, I was at work last night telling my coworker about a dream I had. 

I'm realistic with my dog's temperament - Berlin is a very well bred working line. We've been training for schutzhund since he was 8 weeks old. He's working on bitework. But he is INCREDIBLY social, loves people. I joke - "This dog will NEVER protect me. The only way I can ever pray he'll save me is if his juggernaut head accidently knocks the assailant out as he goes to jump on them and lick them". 

Zeke is 7 years old, crotchety in his "old" age. He has definitely displayed more "protective" tendencies. He'll bark at some people. He barks at men. There have been a few times, walking at night or what not, that someone has seemed off and he's barked or growled at them. I picked up a stranger boy for a date one time - Berlin had been in the far back kenneled and Zekle had been free in the back seat directly behind the front seat. He actually barked at the boy, then jumped into the front seat and growled at the boy as he tried to get in the car. I had to physically grab his leash and push him back into the back seat. Once the boy was in, had said his name, and let him sniff his hand he was BETTER but never great around him. So although I've always been realistic and never expected him to protect me, I always had that slight hope that he would. 

As I was telling my coworker, just last night, I think my dogs give me a false sense of security. Although I dont expect them to actually do anything to an assailant, I do trust that 2 big german shepherds, potentially barking, are enough to scare anyone away, and therefor young single female me doesnt ever worry about myself. I never lock the doors in my house. I leave my windows wide open. I leave the dog door open. I just have this unrealistic expectation that no one will ever mess with me, because I have 2 big intimidating dogs. In this dream I had, I came home alone and for some reason did not have the dogs, someone had come into my house because the door was unlocked, and tried to rape me. Ever since that dream I have started locking my doors.

After work last night, 2am, I was driving home. I not only had my 2 big german shepherds in the car, I had my aunt's pit bull who is sweet but barks at EVERYONE. Because I had 3 dogs, Berlin was not kenneled, the seats were folded down. Berlin and the pitbull were laying directly behind the front seats, and Zeke was way in the back laying down. 

As I was driving I saw a car stopped in one of the turn lanes to exit the highway with it's emergency blinkers on, and there was a young man (maybe early 20s) standing behind the car waving his arms. I figured he must of stalled, maybe he doesnt have a phone or it's dead. I did hesitate for a minute because it was a male and I was alone, but again, false sense of security with 2 german shepherds and a pitbull in my back seat.

I did not pull over. But I looked and made sure no cars were behind me, and then I stopped in the lane of the highway and rolled my window halfway down to ask if he needed me to call someone. Young, alone, female, 2am. 

He calmly and deliberately walked right over, opened my door, and began to get in my car. Saying so calmly "It's ok, It's ok".

I have never been so scared in my life. I literally thought I was going to be murdered. I thought it was a setup, I thought I was getting carjacked. I thought he was going to pull a gun on me, make me drive to the mountains, best case scenario just rob me, worst case scenario rape me and murder me. I thought I was going to die. He was so calm and matter of fact about his actions and words. 

Zeke was barking, but Berlin and the pit bull were not. I began screaming "*Don't get in, the dogs will attack you!!! Don't get in the car!!!!*" I then realized, as he was halfway in, I should drive. So I slammed on the gas. At this point I hear another male behind him yell "Dude, get out of the car!!!". I assume he had at least 1 friend with him. I don't know if there were more. I wasn't looking at him. I was looking at my phone trying to unlock the screen to dial 911. I was looking at my shifter trying to get it in drive to drive away (I had never taken it OUT of drive. It's amazing how you don't think clearly).

I wanted nothing more than for him to fall, stumble, get dragged, and to feel my tire run over him. I was praying for it. Instead he fully got in the car, still calm as could be, and shut the door. Saying "It's ok, It's ok".

At this point, Zeke stopped barking, and the dogs did nothing more as I could remember. 2 german shepherds (one an extremely well bred working line in schutzhund training) and a pit bull in my backseat, 5 feet away, and I couldn't imagine how it would be possible for me to be radiating any more fear, and they did not do a single dam thing to "protect me". 

Once he was fully in the car, I slammed on the brakes. I was still trying to dial 911 but was fumbling with the phone. I was screaming over and over, *"Get out of the car, I'm dialing 911!!!! Get out I'm calling the cops!!!!"* At this point he was, still calmly, just saying. "It's ok. It's ok. Are the dogs ok? Hey, it's fine. Are the dogs fine?"

THAT was when I smelled the alcohol. This guy was wasted out of his mind. I was still terrified, but a little less terrified I was going to be killed. I couldn't get my phone to ring for some reason, so I began rolling down my window because I was just going to start screaming out the window hoping someone would hear me. FINALLY after what seemed like an eternity but was likely only 30 seconds to a minute, he got out of the car. 

He wasn't even all the way out when I slammed on the gas and pulled away, not even bothering to shut the door.

I still couldn't get my phone to ring when I realized my audio line was plugged into my headphone jack because I had been listening to my music through the car radio. I called 911, reported him. Called my mother and completely lost it. I was hysterical. It was the scariest moment of my life. 

I was so stupid in being so naive and just trying to help. I have only owned my car for a year - before that I owned a mazda for the longest time that had doors that automatically locked when the car was turned on. I've never even thought about the doors on this car being locked or not. And again, 2 german shepherds, I'm fine, right?

I could of easily died, I am convinced. If it HAD of been a setup, and it was a good setup, then the dogs would not of stopped someone. If someone with a gun would of gone to get in my car, they would of easily just shot the dogs and kept on coming. Instead, I was so lucky, it was some stupid drunk kid that didn't know what he was doing. And HE'S so lucky he didn't try to get into a car where someone had a gun. Because he could of easily been shot.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm sorry this was so long. I just hope I help some people think. I don't want this to happen to someone else, and they don't get as lucky as me. Your dog will NOT protect you, and your dog likely will not deter someone away. If someone has a gun and has realistic intent to harm you, they'll shoot your dog and keep on coming. I do think a lone female jogger vs. a female jogger with a german shepherd is a little more likely to get attacked, but realistically, just don't ever depend on your dog. And don't become reckless and stupid because you own a big scary dog. 

There's still a lot of what ifs in my mind, but I will NEVER EVER believe my dogs would protect me in the future. Berlin is only 16 months old. If he was 3-4 years old, fully mature, would he of acted differently? I dont know, but I doubt it. Zeke has jumped up in the front seat before growling. If Zeke had of been directly behind me instead of blocked by Berlin and the pit bull, would he of done the same this time? Tried to block the kid from getting in? Who knows. If this guy had of actually physically harmed me, would that of caused the dogs to react? Who knows. Although simply by the fact that my obvious fear didn't cause them to react, I doubt it. 

I had 2 german shepherds and a pit bull in my back seat, and a strange man in the middle of the night was able to get into my car like it was nothing. Be smart, never trust or depend on your dogs.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Just wondering are the dogs very well socialized ?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Yes they have been well socialized since puppies. However I make it a point to not allow them to be overly socialized - especially with berlin doing schutzhund. I didn't want him to be too social because I didn't want someone like a judge to be a potential distraction on the field. As he was growing I made it a point that he was taken EVERY WHERE and obedience was worked on thoroughly but I limited who could greet him, pet him, play with him, etc. Only members of my club and my coworkers and family are really allowed to play with him and pet him. As much as he would love it i don't let the general public interact with him much.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Zeke was a little different, he was raised as only a pet so socialization was encouraged. And he likes attention well enough but usually prefers to just lay by me

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

But I don't think lack of socialization would of changed the outcome. Coming from experience with an extremely fear aggressive dog that I had to euthanize because of aggression, I think a fearful dog is much more likely to pick flight over fight. It's all about self preservation in their mind. If an assailant were to actually come after them, start attacking them, they would run. It's why many people are trying to get the stick hits taken out of schutzhund. Too many soft nerved dogs are actually chased not only off the sleeve but off the field because a slight whack with a soft stick is enough to spook them off.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

The pit bull is a very recent rescue that I've been basically "boarding and training" for my aunt. She was kept locked in a trailer. NEVER left the house, never taken on walks, not potty trained, no obedience training. She barks at everybody but is very sweet

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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

So if you tell him to attack he would attack cause of training right ?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

very very scarey experience. I take it you don't have automatic locks on your car doors? Mine do not come out of lock unless in PARK. 

This happened to me once, altho it wasn't a stranger. I was parked in a shopping center waiting for my mom to come out of a store..THis guy I knew approached my passenger side. Masi was in the back seat.(full size trailblazer). The passenger window was partially down, he was talking to me as he was approaching, and the fool (He probably didn't see Masi or realize),,opened the door, and started to get in..Masi FLEW over the front seat , at the same time I'm yelling DON"T OPEN THE DOOR! THE DOG IS IN HERE! so I'm yelling, Masi is Flying up on my console into the front, he's backing out, slams the door, and she plowed straight into the door, again going bat crap crazy on him...As soon as I said "leave it"..she turned around and got in the back..

Did not train this, the same guy comes to my house and she's all over him like a long lost friend.

No, I don't take for granted my dog will protect me , and I don't honestly know if she would , it's never been tested. But yes, I do feel 'safer' with her with me out in public but I'm not going to "rely" on it. 

I don't stop for strangers, I will gladly call 911 or somewhere if I see something should someone need help, but not gonna stop, Masi would NOT let them in the car..

Sorry this was such a scarey experience, I would have had to change my pants for sure! 

Don't stop for strangers, but I guess I don't have to tell you that..


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

No he will not attack. Most schutzhund dogs will not. He'll "break" and go after a tug or bite sleeve. But he's not attacking a PERSON, he's playing with a toy simply attached to someone's arm. Again though that's my point people become too dependent on their dogs. And even a well bred sport dog is just that, a SPORT dog. I know one dog in our club that is very defensive and serious, he's going after the decoy not the sleeve. Out of 30 or so dogs in my club that is the only dog I feel that would make after good personal protection dog. Every other dog is just in play drive going after a toy

And no it doesn't automatically lock. Like I've said I've never honestly thought about it because I drove a car for a long time that did lock whenever the car was started and you had to manually unlock it. Even then if the doors were not opened within 30 seconds it relocked

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

And I don't want to sound mean or attacking people and their dogs. I just don't want people to make dumb mistakes like I did and potentially get hurt. Like I said in the past zeke has jumped up in the front seat and growled at people trying to get in the car. But he has never had to stop an attacker so who knows if he would. This time they did absolutely nothing

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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

I'm so sorry this happened. Keep in mind your dogs didn't protect you...but you also didn't protect yourself. Please consider a self defense class, it was one of the most valuable not-school-related thing I learned in college. Where I went to school it was mandatory for all females. 
It's like Chris Rock says about insurance..."you need some coverage." As in...cover your own ass 

Exposures:
-leaving work at 2am: do you have mace/CCW? Is there someone who will know to check for you if you're not home by a certain time?
-stopping the car: don't stop, call 911 and tell them there's a stranded car. 
-do your cars door locks auto unlock when you put it on park? Know your car!
-for the love of all that is good and holy lock your home! You've now posted on the internet this info and if there is some shady person out there they can easily locate you by your IP address...unless you're on a VPN. 

I'm not saying be paranoid, just step up your game. People do dumb/bad stuff sometimes..don't increase their opportunity to do so 


I want to wrap you in bubble wrap to protect you but you have to start protecting yourself. I'm so sorry again


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you want a personal protection dog get a presa canario. Then buy several shovels and put them in every room of your house to protect yourself from said presa canario.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

joneser said:


> I'm so sorry this happened. Keep in mind your dogs didn't protect you...but you also didn't protect yourself. Please consider a self defense class, it was one of the most valuable not-school-related thing I learned in college. Where I went to school it was mandatory for all females.
> It's like Chris Rock says about insurance..."you need some coverage." As in...cover your own ass
> 
> Exposures:
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I do have several safety mechanisms. I have done some self defense classes in the past but my room mate and I today both signed up for more.

I always call my mom and text my room mate when I'm leaving work so they do know to expect me to be home within a certain time frame. Mainly because I've had several classmates killed at 2 am driving home after work, hit by drunk drivers.

Since I had that dream a few months ago I really did realize I trust too much on my dogs. I now do a safety walk through my house every day before I leave and every night before bed, and have done it for the last 2 months so it's a pretty set habit now. All windows and doors closed and locked, dog door down and latched, dogs shut in my bedroom with me. 

I shoot frequently and have been wanting to get a concealed carry permit because I am out alone with the dogs so much. For in home protection I have the 9 mm in the nightstand and a shotgun by the front door. Again someone comes in I don't want the dogs getting injured going after someone with a gun, I am there to protect myself and them.

Ordered mace for both the car and a mace Keychain today as well. Honestly something I've been wanting to do for a while but I'm such a procrastinator. 

I never thought about this new car because I was so use to a car that did automatically lock. Good point, you should always lock your doors every time you get in your car.

As I said before I realize how incredibly STUPID I was. I feel so so stupid. But I only want to share my story to prevent other stupid mistakes.

I've passed numerous cars stranded in the past that I've called 911 to report. I don't know what I was thinking. Again stupid naive security because I had "big bad dogs" in the back, and I only thought to be nice and help someone out. Also because of my work hours I am so comfortable with the night that I forget what kind of people out and how dangerous of a time it can be.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I really just thought to post this as an example, because how many times do we see new members post "I want to get a german shepherd to protect me/my family". It's just not going to happen.

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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

You really should never pick up strangers, which I'm sure you know now. The general rule is, call the police and report where the car is, and go on your merry way. I'm someone who carries a gun everyday, and I'd still never think of picking up a stranger on the side of the road, because even if they randomly got into your car when you didn't want them their, you couldn't shoot them, you'd be in jail, even if they got in your car and the dogs did bite, they could argue you stopped, and that means get in, and then your dogs randomly bit. 

I just say this because there is no good scenario for stopping for a stranger, let the police do it, that's why you pay taxes. 

Maybe invest in a sidearm, or a high grade taser, when in doubt, go less-lethal 


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Thewretched said:


> You really should never pick up strangers, which I'm sure you know now. The general rule is, call the police and report where the car is, and go on your merry way. I'm someone who carries a gun everyday, and I'd still never think of picking up a stranger on the side of the road, because even if they randomly got into your car when you didn't want them their, you couldn't shoot them, you'd be in jail, even if they got in your car and the dogs did bite, they could argue you stopped, and that means get in, and then your dogs randomly bit.
> 
> I just say this because there is no good scenario for stopping for a stranger, let the police do it, that's why you pay taxes.
> 
> ...


As I said I know this, and have numerous side arms. I was very stupid and very lucky. It's a scenario I've encountered numerous times before where I have called dispatch and kept on driving.

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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If it's any consolation, I think the stop-block-the-lane-and-pretend-to-have-car-trouble technique is a "thing" for bad guys late at night when few cars are around. They do it just because they know good samaritans will want to help.

Someone did it on a residential street in my neighborhood a few months ago (car stopped, flashers on)--blocking the one-way street late at night, so there was no way around this car. A resident of the neighborhood rolled up behind, wondering whether to see if they needed help, but before a decision was made, a guy jumped out of the "disabled" car brandishing a pistol. The resident slammed the car into reverse and took off, safely escaping. This is a _good_ neighborhood that had apparently been "targeted" by bad guys.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Magwart said:


> If it's any consolation, I think the stop-block-the-lane-and-pretend-to-have-car-trouble technique is a "thing" for bad guys late at night when few cars are around. They do it just because they know good samaritans will want to help.
> 
> Someone did it on a residential street in my neighborhood a few months ago (car stopped, flashers on)--blocking the one-way street late at night, so there was no way around this car. A resident of the neighborhood rolled up behind, wondering whether to see if they needed help, but before a decision was made, a guy jumped out of the "disabled" car brandishing a pistol. The resident slammed the car into reverse and took off, safely escaping. This is a _good_ neighborhood that had apparently been "targeted" by bad guys.


Yes it definitely seemed like it would be the perfect setup. They were stopped in the middle of the turn lane right before the offramp. 

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also if it's any consolation,,if a 'drunk' jumped in my car, Masi would probably be all over them like a wet noodle, she is VERY attracted to the smell of booze on one's breath,,NO idea WHY? LOL we don't drink,,so in your situation, masi would have most likely licked him to death tho I don't plan on testing that..

This IS a good lesson for others to "think" on what you would do / could or could not happen in a situation like this


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Wow--I am so sorry you had that horrible experience, but learn from it!

I guess I have been fortunate, in 50 years of GSD ownership, I have had only two dogs that I suspected would lick a bad guy to death before even considering biting. They were two rescue boys that I did not raise, and I am sure they had both been over-socialized. It made it easier when you have company, but it was also the only time I ever put out a form of "Beware of Dog" sign on my fence, hoping the sign would deter, because my two BIG German shepherds couldn't be relied upon to even bark, LOL!

The rest of them all have proven themselves in various situations, my sisters and I lived in areas where there were real life instances where the dogs proved their nerve, when they did protect us, twice actually biting the person involved. Fortunately it was before there were ads on TV for lawyers taking on dog bite cases whether the bite was warranted or not...

I really think that part of it was that I never over-socialized, and I never practiced bite-inhibition... There were lessons on appropriate times for teeth on skin (affectionate mouthing I allowed), also rough play, but it all stopped when I said. But I never wanted them to feel they could NEVER put teeth on a human. And they all had a very good sense of good situations and bad situations. 

That being said, yes, a bullet can always stop a canine or two. That's where our own common sense and caution come into play. In this world, you MUST be conscious of your own safety. My car automatically locks at 15 mph, but my habit is to hit the lock the minute I open the door to get in, no matter where I am. I also keep my doors locked at home. These are habits I never break. And, yes, there were hard lessons that made these habits inviolable.

Susan


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Well, I was never under the impression my boys would protect me. 
Only a few breeds I think are inclined to go to war for there owners, one being a tibetan mastiff.
That being said I cant express to you how happy I am that you are okay.

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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

my guy loves woofing and acting tough but I don't think for a second he'll protect me. a few times I've stepped on his tail by mistake and he shrieks like I threw him in hellfire. on the other hand I've read plenty of stories of police dogs continuing the fight despite being stabbed. but that's not my guy at all 

don't stop for people at 2am on a highway! do you know how to change tires or repair engines? I don't, so what's the point of me stopping anyway. just call the police for them. 

don't rely on martial arts too much. so much of it comes down to size. carry pepper spray or some other weapon but prevention is the best defense. keep your house and car secure, that's not paranoid just being safe. 

glad you are OK


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Delgado has always been a very serious dog who misses nothing. He does that hard GSD stare to anyone he deems suspicious but will not bark or otherwise react. It's more of a dare to do something then anything as I call it. On walks I've seen grown men cross the street, he just has a aura about him 

Last winter I had ordered food from a local place and when it arrived I followed me my normal routine of putting a baby gate up to prevent the dogs from getting down in the foyer while I paid and got the food. I had never seen this delivery man before but right from the start he gave me the creeps, he seemed ok but there was just something a little off about him and I subconsciously kept the door closed as much as possible as he stood on the deck.

He was chatting and fiddling around with the debit machine as I waited for him to pass it over and I was getting more and more uncomfortable when I heard a loud bang and suddenly Delgado was pushing against the back of my knees. He had crashed the gate which he knows is a complete no no and come to stand behind me. I pointed to my side and told him to sit and he didn't hesitate to comply and didn't budge from that spot. He never growled or reacted but was a solid presence behind me and suddenly the guy was able to get the machine working very fast. The guy never took his eyes off Delgado and he took off very fast once we were done

Would Delgado have bitten the guy? I don't know. Should he have been barking and snarling at him? As far as I know the guy was perfectly harmless. He broke a known rule because he knew I was uncomfortable and assessed the situation as it was. I've never taught him to guard anything, he doesn't have a command to illicit a bark and hold or anything of the like. He projected a serious but well trained GSD and as far as this guy knew he may have been trained to bite on command, but he wasn't sticking around to find out

To this day that guy has never returned and Delgado hasn't reacted to any of the other deliveries that I've accepted.

Everyone that knows Delgado knows he's a loving and well trained dog but one they would love to have at their side in a dark alley. Between his seriousness and presence nothing but a attacker that is dead set or desperate enough is going to try anything with him by your side. I complete the circle but keeping us both in as safe a situation as possible at all times and don't take unnecessary risks


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> I really just thought to post this as an example, because how many times do we see new members post "I want to get a german shepherd to protect me/my family". It's just not going to happen.
> 
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Hey I think you 're spot on. I think people view GSD's as guard dogs. That they are all crazy mean. They can put on a convincing act of aggression at times too. I do think that GSD's because of their "reputation" do detour people most of the time. But in your case, that's the times where their viscous act doesn't work. When the person is stoned out if their mind, and it's the time you really need them to act on those protection instincts but don't. 

My thought is it goes back to training. Dog is trained to be social. That means to trust strangers in my mind so they don't try to take bites out of people. I wouldn't trust my life to my dog. I got him because I like the breed and to keep people away from my house. He is good at it. But I wouldn't trust my life to him.

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Instead, I was so lucky, it was some stupid drunk kid that didn't know what he was doing. And HE'S so lucky he didn't try to get into a car where someone had a gun. Because he could of easily been shot.


I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but my untrained pet dogs can and did protect me on more than one occasion.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This is one of the oddest stories I've ever read on the board.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but my untrained pet dogs can and did protect me on more than one occasion.


I think her point is to not rely on your dog (or get a GSD) thinking that they will protect you. Most won't. 

I had a German Shephered/Rottie who would lick someone to death. Totally social. Would he have protected me? I doubt it.

There was one time I had my dog off leash in the woods and a guy came out screaming at us thinking my dog was a coyote (my dog was medium sable). My dog got between me and the guy and barked aggressively like I've NEVER heard him do. And he would not relent until the guy left. Wouldn't back up and wouldn't let the guy touch him.

Now, I socialized him to the ends of the earth...so he knew normal behavior. This guy came out aggressive and my dog reacted. But in the OP's situation, if someone got into my car calmly and said it's okay...my dog wouldn't have done ANYTHING!


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## RiverDan (Mar 22, 2013)

Wow.
I didn't read all the replies, I just wanted to tell you I was freaked out reading about your experience on the comfort of my couch.
I'm glad it didn't get worse for you.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Wow. I am really glad you are OK. You are right, having a dog with you indeed brings a sense of "it's safe". I used to walk alone in the National Park during off-season with a super friendly Aussie and a highly aggressive Aussie. I figured she'd kill man or beast. She was never put to the test. Then when I had my ginormous Aussie, there was one time someone was coming towards me and he barked him off. Would he have attacked and defended? Nope. Just one deep bark and an evil look. Now my shepherd, well, fear aggressive boy. We actually had an incident where someone tried to kidnap a little girl whose grandfather left me watching her momentariy. The creep spoke to her and asked her to come with him. Shay barked, growled, and air snapped at him, and he hastily retreated. I actually think Shay might go snapping and biting and barking if someone came at me. But he is pretty fear aggressive and until he realizes "friend" or "family" the greeting introductions even at home are a bit dicey. Not sure he really has that much discrimination.

Anyway, you are absoutely right. I had one spooky moment alone with my shepherd when he was young in the National Park where I came upon a person and realized I was near helpless, dog or not, and though the dog barked and the person said, "oh he's protecting you such a good dog" and walked off, after a run-in with an angry doe that my shepherd wanted to meet and apparently make friends with, I was entirely done walking in the National Park alone, with my husband, close to camp or far and away. That fear and mortality moment is a big one and will never really leave you. 

Thankfully, you are safe. Whether they were drunks or drunks with bad intent who knows, but thankfully you are safe. I think your story needs to be published/circulate to help others (maybe omitting a few expletives). I also think you should lock the doors. We are rural and used to leave stuff unlocked. Now, locked tight, loaded, and the shepherd is merely an early warning system.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There's only so much you can expect from your dogs, and putting yourself in that situation in the first place was a good learning experience for you - I know you'll never do anything like that again, lol! Same with leaving the doors unlocked and the windows open: you're giving these scum a very tempting opportunity, and when their brains are mucked up on drugs or alcohol, they're not going to be thinking straight. Be careful! Crap, that was probably a terrifying ordeal but you need to keep yourself safe by avoiding trouble in the first place.

I had that fake set-up happen to me too, while driving in the mountains. The 'line' was their car went off the side (2 men waved us over) but magically enough when they saw the dog they didn't want us to call for help? WTF? People have all sorts of scams going, to get something for nothing, and it sucks to be so jaded, but the simple solution is to not be so open and trusting. 

I hope you can get over this frightening experience without being completely paranoid, lol - but a little paranoia might end up saving your butt one day.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I think her point is to not rely on your dog (or get a GSD) thinking that they will protect you. Most won't.


if you mean protect in the sense that they would jump up and bite someone
i think many actually would
my own did when someone walked into my house unexpectedly 

but i got my dogs for their ability to deter would be criminals 
that is protection! 
i carry a gun at all times to protect myself should things escalate and i dont rely on any dog of any breed to do what i can do myself

that said gsds are going to deter would be criminals more than a pug would!
:crazy:
lets put it this way
if 2 gsds sitting in a vehicle dont deter people there is something wrong with them :crazy:
and in this case apparently very drunk

you also have to have common sense
if ever in the situation as the op described the safest thing to do is roll the window down with the doors locked and holler as you _drive by _ that you have notified 911 that they are possibly stranded

and do just that
dial 911 before even making contact with the stranded motorist



> don't stop for people at 2am on a highway! do you know how to change tires or repair engines? I don't, so what's the point of me stopping anyway. just call the police for them.


this exactly!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Thank goodness that it all worked out ok!! I think German Shepherds are good deterrents. A person unfamiliar with the breed might assume that a GSD will protect and defend its owner. 

I got my boy as a deterrent in a downtown area neighborhood. The neighbor beside me and the neighbor across the street have bully breeds and the three of us have front yard chain-link fencing. We have lots of foot traffic and believe me--people notice the dogs. And my boy is never in the front yard alone as i don't want him stolen.

Sooo very glad it turned out ok--you are a great writer. Your story had my heart beating faster and I could feel the adrenaline!!!!


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

I know this is not what this thread is about but I have to ask. Why in the world would you keep a shotgun next to your front door??? You put the more powerful weapon that you don't even need to aim next to your front door for anyone that would break in to grab, but then you put the smaller weapon that you will have to aim in your nightstand? This makes no sense to me. I hope at least that you don't keep that set up once you go to bed. 

I understand your original point to this thread, but I would also like to say that I don't think the scenario was the best example of your point. From the dogs' perspectives, you voluntarily stopped, rolled down your window, talked to someone, and then did not physically resist in any way when they got into your car. Not saying that you did anything wrong. I'm just wondering if the situation had escalated to a physical level, him attacking you and you physically defending yourself, would the dogs have acted then?


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Baillif said:


> If you want a personal protection dog get a presa canario. Then buy several shovels and put them in every room of your house to protect yourself from said presa canario.




I have been exposed to many presa canarios. Most were extremely well trained PP dogs owned by breeders. Loved them, but they ARE too much dog for most people. They have a high level of dog aggression too. If I wanted a dog for deterrent purposes or property guard, the Presa would be it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also think some dogs would protect. I also would like to think they can weed out a threat and a non threat. A drunk person that isn't acting crazy but calm might not have been a big enough threat. I still don't count on my dogs to protect me, I would hope they would be good deterrents. I know that years ago I worked at a vet that was next to a bar and we had a couple Dobermans that were boarding(beautiful dogs) and I had to walk them at night. I took the one out and some guys at the bar started bothering me. There was nothing calm about their harassment. The doberman that knew me for about 3 hours, stood his ground and growled at them. It was not a happy growl and all teeth were bared. Those guys backed off real quick. Considering I wasn't this dogs owner I was quite impressed.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It does depend on the dog. I met someone who truly believes that GSDs will attack drunk people, because her GSDs have. LOL, that would have been quite a different outcome - some poor stranded motorist gets his face ripped open because he's too drunk and stupid not to know better than to jump into a car with an alcohol-hating GSD!

ETA: or maybe that's why the other guy was screaming to get out? LOL!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

IllinoisNative said:


> I think her point is to not rely on your dog (or get a GSD) thinking that they will protect you. Most won't.


My experience has been different. Mine have. The littermate of my current fearful little guy chased a bear out of her yard protecting her human kids yesterday. Scary stuff.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> I have been exposed to many presa canarios. Most were extremely well trained PP dogs owned by breeders. Loved them, but they ARE too much dog for most people. They have a high level of dog aggression too. If I wanted a dog for deterrent purposes or property guard, the Presa would be it.


 I admire Presa Canarios but apparenetly I can't have one because I only have two shovels!


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

I agree that is one of the craziest stories I have read so far as well... How far along is your dog? These stories teach the giant disconnect between sport training and real world application. ZeRo many/most times. I would quit yesterday with your club and find some help with someone who can train your Berlin for modicum of defense. The dogs did'nt even read your energy or the threat what so ever... YiKeS


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Ellimaybel said:


> I know this is not what this thread is about but I have to ask. Why in the world would you keep a shotgun next to your front door??? You put the more powerful weapon that you don't even need to aim next to your front door for anyone that would break in to grab, but then you put the smaller weapon that you will have to aim in your nightstand? This makes no sense to me. I hope at least that you don't keep that set up once you go to bed.
> 
> I understand your original point to this thread, but I would also like to say that I don't think the scenario was the best example of your point. From the dogs' perspectives, you voluntarily stopped, rolled down your window, talked to someone, and then did not physically resist in any way when they got into your car. Not saying that you did anything wrong. I'm just wondering if the situation had escalated to a physical level, him attacking you and you physically defending yourself, would the dogs have acted then?


The shotgun is hanging above the stairway which is right next to the front door, so it's not just a gun leaning against the wall. The 9 mm is in my nightstand because I know how to aim and shoot a gun. I also have one room mate that is fully aware of the guns in the house, and no kids to worry about with them.

I also think it's a perfect scenario, especially since dogs usually treat cars as their territory and bark at people out car windows (mine sure do). If they couldn't tell I was afraid in that situation and he was a danger, they never will.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Seer said:


> I agree that is one of the craziest stories I have read so far as well... How far along is your dog? These stories teach the giant disconnect between sport training and real world application. ZeRo many/most times. I would quit yesterday with your club and find some help with someone who can train your Berlin for modicum of defense. The dogs did'nt even read your energy or the threat what so ever... YiKeS



Why would I quit my club???

I've always said from day one - berlin is SO social. And that's not because of how I trained him - I tried very hard to limit human contact with him as a puppy and growing up, but he has always thought people are the best things ever. That's set temperament. He doesn't have what it takes to be a PPD. He doesn't have that serious defensive drive. And I'm fine with that. He's a pet and a sport dog. I never thought schutzhund training would make him a guard dog? It's a sport and nothing more. Which is why many police departments get crap PD dogs because they can only afford sport washouts.

And that's exactly what I'm trying to get across. Most dogs are NOT going to protect people, nor should they be expected to. I honestly never thought mine would. Along that same line though, I trusted my dogs too much as a deterrent just because they LOOK dangerous, and that dangerous way of thinking put me in unsafe situations. And I still see people on this thread trusting their dog's too much as a detterent. Sure they'll scare a lot of people away. But if a hardened experienced rapist, or serial killer, or burglar comed after you, they'll just shoot your dog and keep on coming.



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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Wow. I am so glad you are okay!!! How scary!!! 

I never expect my dogs to actually protect me, I see them as a deterrent but that's it. 

A few years ago, a Good Samaritan saw my car was running while I was parked at a CVS. It's a civil penalty where I live to leave a car idling. So, thinking he was being a good neighbor( very misguided) he opened my car, took my keys out of the ignition and came inside the store. 

When I finally got upfront, after dropping off a prescription and picking up some munchies, (5 minutes max) I see a stranger dangling my keys from his hand. I was in shock. It was summer, 90 degrees, and the reason my car was running was because MY DOG was inside!!!(I know, but that's not the point of this story). I LOST it on this dude, grabbed my keys, leaving everything at the counter and ran to check my dog. Who was sleeping soundly in the back seat. Dude never even knew a dog was in the car. My big bad 90 lb solid black GSD never moved a muscle. Then I went back in and let the dude have it again, pretty sure my whole town is now scared of me. 

But yeah. I don't expect protection. 

I do find it funny though, at SchH, my dog is the only one who is quiet when someone approaches the car. I hate it when dogs are going ballistic all day in the car. So I don't allow it. But people joke that it's obvious that they are SAR dogs. It's common for team members to approach and get stuff from my car, or grab my dog for me, and they need to be okay with that. 

But after this story.... I don't know. 


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> My experience has been different. Mine have. The littermate of my current fearful little guy chased a bear out of her yard protecting her human kids yesterday. Scary stuff.


I think this is a completely separate situation. Especially since most bears are easily spooked off. Ever seen the round of YouTube videos of various CATS chasing bears away? Barking at something that then runs away is very different from standing your ground and pushing back against a human attacker.

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Why would I quit my club???
> 
> I've always said from day one - berlin is SO social. And that's not because of how I trained him - I tried very hard to limit human contact with him as a puppy and growing up, but he has always thought people are the best things ever. That's set temperament. He doesn't have what it takes to be a PPD. He doesn't have that serious defensive drive. And I'm fine with that. He's a pet and a sport dog. I never thought schutzhund training would make him a guard dog? It's a sport and nothing more. Which is why many police departments get crap PD dogs because they can only afford sport washouts.
> 
> ...


Don't sweat it we pretty much understand your point!

We don't know unless it is a PPD how it will react! My guy is no friend of strangers period! He looks to me for guidance and direction.

I do know what he will do with charging dogs.I slipped on ice while protecting him and he was behind me in a stay. I expected to be attacked and I guess he thought.."well this isn't right???" And stepped up, that dog disappeared fast! 

But a person getting in my face?? No idea what he would do...not my problem.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Depends on the dog. Some dogs are "turned on" by fight - my Whiskey or Xochi would only get ramped up more by yelling, waving, and hitting. They hit harder, bite fuller, and aggressively react to a fight. 

But yes, many will flight just as easily


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on the dog. My dog...I wouldn't put it past him. I certainly try to avoid situations where I'd have to rely on him for protection, but I would be surprised if he ignored a threat or wanted to socialize. He's not a social dog, very stable and neutral but other than, say, five people, he doesn't give a poop about you (or your dog). He also has some "barrier aggression" as I call it. He's good in a crate in the vehicle simply because he goes places several times a week, but come to the door or the gate and you will have to answer to him (neighbors alongside the fence are completely ignored). We have done protection training where I am turning him "on" and turning him "off", not just cue-ing off equipment and doing Schutzhund routines. We've also done some double-blind work where I had no idea someone was going to stage a physical attack and each time, he has been on the person before I can even turn around to see his reaction. I've also seen how he reacted to being kicked by a neighbor. Every dog has their limit when they will turn and leave a fight, but let's just say he is not a dog that's going to sit there dumb-face or actually try to socialize with someone acting odd or threatening. I don't need to say "oh he'd protect me with his life" to know that he's a good dog. I know I can turn him on and off, it's been tested in training and real life, and I know his nature is to be neutral and aloof to normal people but wary of anyone acting odd and gauging *my* reaction in those situations. That's good enough for me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I haven't done any protection training, but I will say that when we did the temperament test, both of mine were strong on the threat part. My female held her ground and my male challenged the "Threat". After a while my male realized the guy wasn't coming any closer and wasn't a real threat, that is when the evaluator told the guy he could stop because he was amusing Midnite.


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## AKIRA3 (Jul 17, 2013)

I had a schnauzer mix who had the ego of a GSD!
he jumped up the arm of a man and was going for his neck.
My dog thought the guy was stealing our printer from our house!!!
he was helping us move!
That same schnauzer would warn me when he sensed someone was up to no good. 
he was an awesome judge of character!
I miss that old rescued mutt!!,


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My IPO trained dog rides crated in my vehicle. He is silent when people approach my van. He only growls/reacts if someone tries to mess with his crate or him. So...no he wouldn't be able to protect me if I pulled over to help a crazed person.
I got pulled over by a county sheriff a couple weeks ago,and the cop stuck his head in my window to check out my van before running my info. Karlo laid calmy watching. I am happy he wasn't going off cujo like in that situation, as it may have given the cop reason to do more investigation of my ride...or not. I was let go with a warning, no ticket. Cop asked me where I was headed and I did name drop the club, I think it helped.
I never lock my house, 3 GSD's are a deterrent, if someone wanted to get in, they would have to harm the dogs. Crazy people will do what crazy people do. I'd never, ever stop unless it were a true accident scene and before I stopped, I'd be dialing 911.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> And that's exactly what I'm trying to get across. Most dogs are NOT going to protect people, nor should they be expected to.


I just don't know how you can base your argument from one anecdotal incident. Your dogs didn't protect you, my untrained pet dogs took down a guy who came over our fence. I don't use what happened with my dogs to say most dogs would protect. I think it depends on the dog and the situation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So the guy that came over your fence was doing it why? Many times people are hopped up on drugs and will power up and become more extreme in tolerating pain, etc. I would rather not have my dogs harmed in such a situation. 
Best to let the dogs alert us to the threat which they'd do first with the weird scent. My dogs usually alert on scent first, sound second, vision third.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I've had one dog I knew for a fact, from experience, who would protect me. I don't place that on my current dogs. I know Shasta wont do anything. She doesn't even bark at the door. 

Dax's job is simply to let me know when there could be a problem so I can take action. I'm a very untrusting person so don't stop for anyone on the side of the road unless I know them, which has only happened once. I carry pepper spray on my keys, one in my truck and I have one in the house. 

I'm sorry you had this experience. I'm glad it taught you something, though scary.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> So the guy that came over your fence was doing it why? Many times people are hopped up on drugs and will power up and become more extreme in tolerating pain, etc. I would rather not have my dogs harmed in such a situation.
> Best to let the dogs alert us to the threat which they'd do first with the weird scent. My dogs usually alert on scent first, sound second, vision third.


Who knows why? Who cares? I suspect he was going for the easy break in. My parents had parked their car at my house earlier that day and took a taxi to the airport (I lived much closer to the airport). This was also many years ago before drugs were so prevalent. 

It wasn't a matter of us telling the dogs to get the guy. We had no idea he was there. Dogs went out took him down. Hubby whistled them off as soon as he figured out what was happening. It was 2 am and we were asleep when it happened.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Coke (large mix) would let the devil himself through the front door, heck he'd open the door for him if there might be a good treat involved  Legend (puppy GSD)...too early to say. Indy (pit bull), to some she appears "protective" but it's actually insecurity. She's not protective of me, she just makes it clear that certain people she doesn't like should not come near her space. If it came down to it, she'd tuck tail and run. Nikon is very protectIVE, but that doesn't mean flipping out every time someone comes near our vehicle or actually biting someone. A protective dog is only as useful as his threshold and clear-headedness.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

A friend of mine got robbed by his neighbors son. As he was going over the fence to leave the property, 2 of my friends GSD's got hold of him. Each one had a leg, so that bad guy ended up in jail because the dogs held him.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I just don't know how you can base your argument from one anecdotal incident. Your dogs didn't protect you, my untrained pet dogs took down a guy who came over our fence. I don't use what happened with my dogs to say most dogs would protect. I think it depends on the dog and the situation.


It's not one incident. They've done studies on this and news reports. I remember one news report where they had an intruder "break in" to peoples houses who had Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Pit Bulls, etc. NONE of them attacked. Oh, sure, many of them barked at first. But none of them attacked. In one instance instance, the intruder actually told the Rottweiler to get into a crate and it did. LOL

It depends on the dog of course...whether it's trained or not. But what they found in the study is that the dogs didn't do what the owners thought the dogs would do based on their breed. That's not to say some dogs won't do that. It's to say don't depend on it...and most house dogs don't attack threats.

But I only need my dog to look scary to others. That's the deterrent aspect. They bark and look scary. That doesn't mean they will go after a threat.

A lot of dogs bark and act aggressive out of fear...fear for themselves. People often mistake that for "protection." The outcome maybe the same. But that doesn't mean the dog's intention is to protect you.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

IllinoisNative said:


> It's not one incident. They've done studies on this and news reports. I remember one news report where they had an intruder "break in" to peoples houses who had Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Pit Bulls, etc. NONE of them attacked. Oh, sure, many of them barked at first. But none of them attacked. In one instance instance, the intruder actually told the Rottweiler to get into a crate and it did. LOL


Maybe, links please.... but she wasn't basing her argument on those studies. She was basing it on anecdotal evidence. Had she said "studies show..." and then posted cites and links I wouldn't have said anything unless I had cites and links to studies that said differently.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I think we've all done things that we look back at later and wonder where our heads were...stopping in the middle of the night to help a stranger..admirable but dangerous. Scary situation, glad you're okay.

I have no idea if my dogs would protect me but I always take one of them if I'm out late at night. (seldom) Usually it's Annie. It makes me feel safer but you're right...no guarantees. It's good warning.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i am always amused when people say their dogs wont protect them
if gsds are such big wimps and wussess what the heck are they doing in those patrol cars? 

no really
some gsds are quite protective
maybe the ops is not and i am not sure of our current pup but the last few we have had were very protective and proved it on at least one occasion each
they were not trained
they were just very loyal dogs :shrug:


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

op if your dog isnt the type of gsd that is suspicious by nature then the chances of it protecting you go down. imo a good gsd shouldnt be super social. 

i know of 2 shepherds that i would bet good money would murder an intruder, dig a hole in the backyard, and bury the body.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It's a very valid warning. Dogs are as individual as we are, they aren't all the same
My 'love everyone' Great Dane went over the top bonkers when the guy kicked my door in. An angry Great Dane is a truly awesome sight.
I used to joke that Bud was protecting Sabi not the house, I am beginning to think I was right, but I wouldn't want to be the test subject for that theory.
Sabi protected me, not the house just me. On a regular basis strangers entered and left my home while I was absent, most had to wake her up. If I was in the house you couldn't set foot on the walkway without her warning me. She was friendly and social but very protective, and perfectly willing to fight to defend.
But my big surprise was skittish, fearful Shadow. On a late night walk a vagrant crawled out of the bushes and approached us yelling. Shadow was shaking but she not only stepped towards him growling, she stood her ground and barked when he stomped at her and raised his hand. I intervened and got us out of there, and I admit I used the situation for a second to see what she would do. Would she protect me? Probably not but then again who knows. 
I think people should not put themselves or their dogs in situations that warrant protection. All I expect is a warning, I will take care of the rest. And God help you if you hurt my dogs.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Oh wow, I'm sorry that that happened to you!  But at least the man was not being intentionally harmful, from what I can tell, he was probably just not thinking straight because like you said, he was drunk. I am sure when he's thinking properly he will think back on it and will probably feel very ashamed or even embarrassed. 

I know my last dog would never had protected me. He was very friendly to everyone. Very sociable. But I'm not sure if he was a well bred dog. What the breeder told me he was bred for a friendly temperament, pet/family lines. 

Also, I don't mean to offend, but how can you say that your dog was a well bred dog if he did not try to protect you when you were obviously frightened and felt as though you were in danger? I thought German Shepherds were bred to protect their families/property and the livestock. Just curious on what people think is a well bred German Shepherd dog. 

EDIT: It's also sad that there is so much distrust out there . . .


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't think I'd expect an 18 month old teenage boy to be protective. 

My boy is getting ready to turn 2, he's always been super aloof though. I've noticed in the last couple months that he's been changing A LOT; he didn't used to care about people in or around the house but he's becoming more and more suspicious out of the house and in and starting to alert. I was in our bedroom with him when some plumbers came in the house, as soon as he heard them in the hallway he started barking and growling then when my husband entered the room he charged the door but stopped once he saw who it was. He also scared off a really creepy guy on our walk who was really making me nervous.

I wouldn't rely on him to actually protect me but he does put on a pretty good show of it that I hope it'd be a deterrent for most. The thing that makes me feel a whole lot safer is the gun in my nightstand.  That is really scary though especially when you're a women... A good eye opening experience and I'm glad it turned out to just be a dumb drunk and not someone with serious intent!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its not complicated or surprising. You want a protection dog you go after certain blood lines. You test the puppy, you test the adult. Some dog will just do it naturally. If the dog doesnt naturally engage passive people or people off the field without equipment for for that matter you train him too. You run scenarios and If the dog cant do the job its gone. If you are serious about a protection dog get one and by all means EXPECT it to protect you. A schutzhund pet is not a protection dog.

Thats if your serious..

Just an fyi there is a big difference between two dogs engaging a fleeing stranger in their yard and a passive or even confrontational decoy.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Baillif said:


> If you want a personal protection dog get a presa canario. Then buy several shovels and put them in every room of your house to protect yourself from said presa canario.


You have to be the funniest person on this board. Every time I see your avatar as I quickly scroll up or down, I purposely stop and read what you write, even if I skipped the posts above and below you. You're the only person who makes me literally laugh out loud with 99% of your posts. I think I need to meet you in person! Either that, or you need to do stand up comedy. You always lighten my mood and make my day! I'm thinking you should publish a book with all of the original posts that you're answering, and then your witty answers. It would be like Truly Tasteless GSD Joke Book! I would be the first in line to pre-order it.

Just wanted to compliment you by letting you know how much I appreciate what you bring to this board.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Anubis_Star said:


> I really just thought to post this as an example, because how many times do we see new members post "I want to get a german shepherd to protect me/my family". It's just not going to happen.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I didn't read all of the replies, but the first thing I was thinking was this:

GSDs are not supposed to protect us. We are supposed to protect them. Yes, they are intimidating to some (most!). They can act as early warning defense systems, to alert their human to a potential threat. However, if they see you pull over and think that you purposely let this man in your car, then maybe you know him and he is your friend. I could see why they might do nothing in this situation. I have my "guard dogs" because I can watch them alert me to something just by the way they carry themselves, or the way they turn their head to sniff the air. I know something is coming, be it human or another dog getting walked, etc. So I know you know all this, but like you said, many others get GSDs thinking they are naturally great guard dogs. They ARE in a sense, if you know how to read them. Most people don't. They shouldn't be expected to physically defend you in an attack. I'm sure with years of proper training they could and would. But most GSD owners don't put that time, effort and money into such training. They think that, just by being on the premises, the entire family and property is safe.

Again, GSDs are or can be a great big deterrent in the right situation, as a lot of the "bad guys" fear our "K-9s" as I've heard them call my dogs. More often though, WE need to be the deterrent to keep ourselves and our dogs safe. At least that's my opinion. Glad you are safe, and I was wondering where you disappeared to so early this morning, when you were replying to my post. You were busy typing up this novel! Scary stuff.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol if I wanted more kids Id have them. There is nothing un reasonable about wanting your dog to protect you. This is a breed that is supposed to be able to alert against and fight a man if necessary. We domesticated dogs for a reason
This whole no expectations for the puppies thing is a recent phenomina and has greatly contributed to the weakness in this and many previoisly functional working breeds imo. Not long ago if the dog was not capable of his function he was gone.

Nor does it take years of training for the dog to be able to protect. The dog is capable or he is not. Yes some that are capable are too social due to upbringing or have poor discernability and need to be taught to engage and fight a threat as designated by the handler. Again not years of work if the dog is decent.
Some need little to no teaching and will do it on their own and have excellent discernability.

I posted a clip not long ago of a young dutchy super bouncy and social. Not serious or defensive at all. She was licking and jumping on the decoy. The handler gave the bite command and she was on his arm no equipment in an instant. All prey not a natural guard dog but with some simple training she was biting civilly.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Nor does it take years of training for the dog to be able to protect. The dog is capable or he is not. Yes some that are capable are too social due to upbringing or have poor discernability and need to be taught to engage and fight a threat as designated by the handler. Again not years of work if the dog is decent.
> Some need little to no teaching and will do it on their own and have excellent discernability.


I agree with what you wrote, but it seems like ONLY maybe what, 5-10% of GSDs and/or other working lines these days would naturally protect without years of training? Some of these dogs, like you said, even with training still will not protect. Most of the people who own GSDs, or the average joe on this board, don't have a dog in that 5-10%. That's what I was referring to. Now, they could try to spend years to train their dog and maybe it will acquire the necessary skills and knowledge, but you won't be sure until you're in the real situation, not a staged scenario, and by then it's too late (if the dog ends up just watching or fleeing).

I will say that, when Nara was still a young girl, maybe a year or so old, I was walking her and my 3-4 year old daughter on a path. Two men approached, and one was somewhat walking right towards my daughter. He eventually moved and went around her, but not before Nara got defensive and growled a growl like you see in the movies where they show guard dog scenes. To this day, Nara has never growled at a human again. Was there something about that man that she could sense? Would she have escalated this into an all out attack on him if he tried to touch or grab my daughter? I'll never know. But wow, I was honestly impressed with her level of protection, untrained, all natural. The man made sure that he immediately moved clear and far away from the 3 of us.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

A Little off topic but have you thought about getting power locks installed in your vehicle? Is that doable?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My car has power locks. It has the keyless entry. It just doesn't lock automatically when it's turned on

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

As far as my well bred dog - he's an 18 month old PUPPY from slowly maturing lines. He'll maybe be mature around 3 years old. I would never expect any puppy to go after an aggressor. 2-3 years down the line who knows what he'll do. As well as someone else pointed out he's a pet and sport dog. That is all

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I never expected my dogs to protect me as I've said. I like to think I'm very realistic about temperament. I would bet anything on the statement that 9 out of 10 dogs will NOT engage an attacker. If you think otherwise. ..... all I can say is IMHO that's naive and wishful thinking. As far as police k9s - for 1 very specifically TRAINED animals. As well if you think every police k9 is an amazing high quality specimen. ..... again very naive. See before when I said unfortunately many departments can't afford the dogs the should have, and often get cheaper sport washout dogs.


If i truly wanted a personal protection dog, I would purchase a proven adult. I would be a lot more selective. There is no way in **** I would buy a puppy. I would not do sport work with it. I would do a LOT of appropriate training - suit work, hidden sleaves, muzzle work, etc....

And as i said before - proven adult. Because most of it is genetic temperament and you can't train that in. And the average joe, as said before, simply does not own that kind of dog.

Btw my fear aggressive dog would of "protected" me in a heartbeat. He would of killed that man. He jumped on top of me growling when my dad was joking around that he was going to hit me. He also bit numerous people. But to me, that is not something to brag about. Your fearful dog biting innocent friends because he thinks this or he thinks that... is a liability not a noble defender. A fearful dog that bites is a dog that needs to be euthanized, again just my honest opinion, because that's the dog that's going to kill the neighbor kid for trying to grab his ball under the fence. An appropriately trained, stable, personal protection dog should be able to determine a true threat or not and act accordingly, not just attack everyone that comes within 10 feet of it or it's yard

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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> The shotgun is hanging above the stairway which is right next to the front door, so it's not just a gun leaning against the wall. The 9 mm is in my nightstand because I know how to aim and shoot a gun.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Our obligation is to protect our dogs and to protect the public from our dogs. I NEVER want my dogs to take a live bite.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


We are definitely a gun culture.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


Not everyone but it sure must seem like it sometimes.....................

Kind of ironic isn't it? We can be so fearful in the home that we have firepower strategically placed but then we turn around and drive at 2am without making sure the doors are locked in the vehicle.

And before anyone jumps on me, no I am not being judgemental I've done the same thing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So much of our problem is dogs and guns are being used for a false sense of security. You are right; you should have called 911 or *hp and reported him on the side of the road. Unless there was a crash and obvious injuries there is not much you could have done.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Self defense is more about avoiding complacency and maintaining the proper mindset than training or equipment. Most situations can be avoided if you are thinking a about safety first. 

It's not something I do in the middle of the day, but anything out of the ordinary gets some scrutiny. I tend to take Fama with me when I leave the house. Having her with me puts me at ease, particularly when I'm in a situation that makes me uncomfortable. I know she has my back and it's comforting. 

David Winners


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> My car has power locks. It has the keyless entry. It just doesn't lock automatically when it's turned on
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can change that setting through your car's computer menu system, or read the car manual and see how to change it to automatically lock. It can be done fairly easily.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Of the German Shepherds I have had, two were/are quite social and would not protect, but my dog Boris was another story. He was not social, he was aloof to everyone outside our family, and he was naturally suspicious of everyone he didn't know. He was quite a good judge of character, so if he didn't like someone I noticed. So one day a weird man came to the door in the middle of the day, startled rambling about nothing, and then would not leave. Boris shoved himself between me and the man, and snarled. The man quickly turned and left. There is no doubt in my mind that Boris would protect me, that was his nature. Not all dogs have this instinct, but in this particular dog it was quite strong. Boris never bit anyone in his life, but he could be quite menacing.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow, I was scared just reading your post! I can't imagine how you felt! Thank goodness you are ok!!!!!!

Sinister has protected me before when 2 crackheads approached me in the alley by my house. He reared up and lunged at them while doing fast barks with spit flying and his teeth bared, he was furious! However, I don't know how he would act if someone got in the car? My Dalmatian is super, super friendly right now and let's random strangers in my neighborhood pet him over the fence so I doubt he would do anything at all to protect me.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I had to add that I am a FREAK. I will check my locks all the time while I am driving because I have some OCD but also because I am paranoid that someone will try to get in. My sister actually just recently made fun of me to a gas station attendant. She said to them "how sad and hilarious is it that my 26 year old sister locks the doors immediately after I get out of the car?" 

If I have to run somewhere at night or pick somebody up, I am usually not alone, I either have Sinister in the car or I have a friend in the car. I also have pepperspray and a knife in my car. ​


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star

Why would you stay with the club? if the training is not applicable in any shape or sense then whats the purpose. Does obedience fall apart for sport people as well because its not on the training field? Does the dog not hold its stay, because its on concrete and not grass? Im not advocating a ppd dog clearly yours is a pet. But not even a bark or bark and hold. 

People always go to the extreme of if I wanted a ppd I would have got…...Thats the extreme.. and your right most don't need, nor could handle. But thats not what I'm talking about. As a young lady with a dog from those lines, there no reason not to have some real world application from your pet. Perfectly capable of offering a modicum of protection. So what good reason would prevent this?

Its ok to say your dog will not protect you….. Its just wrong. Better to say my dog won't provide me some level of protection, because I'm not willing to teach it. ~


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


It makes my head spin too and I am American...


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


But sparra, the US has zombies I swear!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

OT, but... A shotgun and pistol make your head spin? I owned both before my 13th birthday, and was proficient in their use. I guess it depends on the culture in which you were raised. 

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My father was a big time outdoorsman, hunter, deer, pheasant, rabbit I grew up eating a lot of venison and rabbit stew. He also collected guns.

The culture has changed and really it is reflected, to get back to dogs not politics....on how we view our personal security on the whole.

I'm glad Anubis shared her story and knew she would catch some flack for it but her point is valid.

A good friend of mine, former military special ops and high ranking LEO with a major metro police department bemoaned the fact that too many people worry about offense, not defense.

There are many steps that can be taken to avoid dangerous situations, most of which are common sense such as keeping shrubs trimmed low around your house, good lighting, don't park in dark parking lots and walk alone, and don't stop in the middle of the night to offer direct assistance to strangers. You can always go past, find a safe place a distance away to park and call 911 If you think there really is a need for help. 

I think that we rely too heavily on offense and escalation be it via weapons or dogs or mace or what have you and it does set us up to take chances we might otherwise not take.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> So much of our problem is dogs and guns are being used for a false sense of security. You are right; you should have called 911 or *hp and reported him on the side of the road. Unless there was a crash and obvious injuries there is not much you could have done.


Theres nothing false about dogs and guns. 

Young women should never stop for men on the side of the road at 2 am even with guns and dogs. I would have lit my niece's up like a christmas tree even if they where armed and dangerous with one of my dogs.

Its false to believe a dog whom you choose not train and a pistol you choose not to train with, will save the day. Even with great training why would take the chance.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....



LOL You should SEE all the guns in this house. I have no idea what they are or how to use one.

OP- There is a reason I am teaching Seger's bark in a different language. I'll eventually transfer it to Revier but for now it's Gib laut . I'll be traveling to events alone. 3 hours one way to training. Yeah, I want to be able to turn him on when I need to on command. I just hope I remember to do so if needed!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Seer said:


> Theres nothing false about dogs and guns.
> 
> *Young women should never stop for men on the side of the road at 2 am even with guns and dogs. I would have lit my niece's up like a christmas tree even if they where armed and dangerous with one of my dogs.*
> 
> Its false to believe a dog whom you choose not train and a pistol you choose not to train with, will save the day. Even with great training why would take the chance.


And THERE is the bottom line. I have never stopped for anyone unless I know them. When I was 16, a prisoner escaped from a jail and then was picked up by a local guy as a hitchhiker. The local guy never made it home. He left a young wife and baby.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> My IPO trained dog rides crated in my vehicle. He is silent when people approach my van. He only growls/reacts if someone tries to mess with his crate or him. So...no he wouldn't be able to protect me if I pulled over to help a crazed person.
> I got pulled over by a county sheriff a couple weeks ago,and the cop stuck his head in my window to check out my van before running my info. Karlo laid calmy watching. I am happy he wasn't going off cujo like in that situation, as *it may have given the cop reason to do more investigation of my ride...or not. * I was let go with a warning, no ticket. Cop asked me where I was headed and I did name drop the club, I think it helped.
> I never lock my house, 3 GSD's are a deterrent, if someone wanted to get in, they would have to harm the dogs. Crazy people will do what crazy people do. I'd never, ever stop unless it were a true accident scene and before I stopped, I'd be dialing 911.


This reminded me of a funny incident when I was about 22. I had my first big dog, the shepherd mix. I was in Montana and driving home in my '65 Mustang, him in the back seat. I may have been exceeding the speed limit a tad.  I got pulled over, rolled my window down and waited for the trooper to approach. Across the road, there was a field of horses. Several of them started running and whinnying and caught the attention of my dog, who was fairly young, about 12 months. Just as the trooper started to bend down, my dog leaped toward the window with a giant *WOOF*, but he was actually barking at the horses. That trooper pulled back so fast it was amazing. He reached out and took my license and reg, stared at them for a minute, and said "Miss, you need to slow down. Have a good day", then walked back to his car and shut the door. HA!

OP, I'm sorry you were so frightened. As much as I hate to say it, it's just not safe for a young woman alone to stop and help someone. Better to call on the cell for 911, which I know you know. Glad you are ok.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

sparra said:


> Makes my head spin when I read what you Americans have stashed around your houses.....


You don't know the half.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Seer said:


> Anubis_Star
> 
> Why would you stay with the club? if the training is not applicable in any shape or sense then whats the purpose. Does obedience fall apart for sport people as well because its not on the training field? Does the dog not hold its stay, because its on concrete and not grass? Im not advocating a ppd dog clearly yours is a pet. But not even a bark or bark and hold.
> 
> ...


My dog is a pup and as of yet does not have a bark and hold (he simply has not barked yet - he never barks - we got our first sounds from him today out on the field actually by doing some blind agitation while posting along with having another dog out on the field barking)

Like I said if he was 3 or 4 I would probably expect a different reaction from him.

My club is amazing, my trainer is amazing, our decoys are amazing, I have no thought or desire of leaving because of this incidence

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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

David Winners said:


> OT, but... A shotgun and pistol make your head spin? I owned both before my 13th birthday, and was proficient in their use. I guess it depends on the culture in which you were raised.
> 
> David Winners


Yeah, I was raised around guns. I had a pistol when I was 14 and was shooting a compound bow proficiently through my teen years. I have a knife in the car also. You just never know.....

The majority of the guns are in a gun safe. They are not just stashed about the house.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I think it depends on the dog and the situation on whether they will protect or not. When I was a teenager a guy I was seeing came up from behind and unexpectedly picked me up. I was startled and let out a scream. Our very friendly, mellow golden retriever ran up and bit him right in the butt. I would never thought that dog would do that. 

I don't really expect my dogs to protect me. I would hope they would bark or growl to alert there is a threat. Then I will protect us.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anubis_Star said:


> My dog is a pup and as of yet does not have a bark and hold (he simply has not barked yet - he never barks - we got our first sounds from him today out on the field actually by doing some blind agitation while posting along with having another dog out on the field barking)
> 
> Like I said if he was 3 or 4 I would probably expect a different reaction from him.
> 
> ...



Your dog is 1.5 years if it's the one born 1/13. Mine is 10 mths. I started teaching a bark months ago and we officially started the bark and hold last weekend.

Just goes to show different trainers and what they expect along with how different dogs are.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

trcy said:


> Yeah, I was raised around guns. I had a pistol when I was 14 and was shooting a compound bow proficiently through my teen years. I have a knife in the car also. You just never know.....
> 
> The majority of the guns are in a gun safe. They are not just stashed about the house.


Yeah I grew up shooting with my dad. He had a special built gun safe and we had 13 guns when he passed away. I kept 2 of them. I consider myself very gun savy. I don't think 2 guns in a house is crazy? ?? Lol

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Very interesting.... I was telling my coworker this whole story - she said one night around the same time she passed a car stalled - so she smartly called 911 to report it and request a cruise check it out - she says the dispatcher actually lectured her and yelled at her for "not stopping to make sure they were ok". A lone female at 2 am!!! I realize what I did was extremely stupid - but to have police dispatch lecture you for NOT doing that?!?

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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Anubis_Star said:


> Very interesting.... I was telling my coworker this whole story - she said one night around the same time she passed a car stalled - so she smartly called 911 to report it and request a cruise check it out - she says the dispatcher actually lectured her and yelled at her for "not stopping to make sure they were ok". A lone female at 2 am!!! I realize what I did was extremely stupid - but to have police dispatch lecture you for NOT doing that?!?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's weird. If I was her i would report it because I don't think that is the official response.

I've always known 911 to give much more conservative advice.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Your dog is 1.5 years if it's the one born 1/13. Mine is 10 mths. I started teaching a bark months ago and we officially started the bark and hold last weekend.
> 
> Just goes to show different trainers and what they expect along with how different dogs are.


a 1.5 year old dog should be barking EASILY. if a decoy cant agitate your dog to bark then yeah no chance it would bark at a drunk going into your car lol


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> My club is amazing, my trainer is amazing, our decoys are amazing, I have no thought or desire of leaving because of this incidence
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As the mother of a daughter, there is SO much I want to say to you at this point! But I've no doubt your personal experience trumps any advice I could give. I am truly, deeply thankful that this was indeed lessons learned.

Question for you - as an after thought - is there a specific command that you give your dog when you send it out to the sleeve? Do you think, if you would have given your dog that command in the car, would your dog have reacted to that command? Certainly not saying would your dog jump up and bite the intruder in your vehicle, but would it have at least reacted excitedly, barking - looking for the sleeve. Enough to cause the intruder to think twice about sitting down and getting comfortable?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Self defense is more about avoiding complacency and maintaining the proper mindset than training or equipment. Most situations can be avoided if you are thinking a about safety first.
> 
> David Winners


This is so important. You can be armed out the wazoo and have a zillion large, scary looking dogs but if you don't keep your head about you none of that will matter. In fact, all of those guns could present a great danger to you if you aren't thinking clearly and go straight into panic mode. 

I try to be aware of where I am and who's around me, especially at night. I had a close call when walking Rafi a couple of months ago and almost got caught in the middle of a drug deal. I was able to back up and run into the woods (inaccessible by car) but it was really scary and reminded me that I have to remain alert and protect myself. 

I have had different experiences with different dogs. Other than barking ferociously when people come to my house, Rafi has shown no protective instincts whatsoever. Once when someone came to my cottage very late at night Rafi was so tired that he didn't even bark! 

Basu scared the crap out of everyone but was only protecting himself and his space. Chama was an excellent protector of me and was clear-headed about it. She once stepped in between me and a man who was carrying a broken bottle on the sidewalk and also demonstrated good judgement in several other situations where I did not see danger. Massie was so-so.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Lilie said:


> As the mother of a daughter, there is SO much I want to say to you at this point! But I've no doubt your personal experience trumps any advice I could give. I am truly, deeply thankful that this was indeed lessons learned.
> 
> Question for you - as an after thought - is there a specific command that you give your dog when you send it out to the sleeve? Do you think, if you would have given your dog that command in the car, would your dog have reacted to that command? Certainly not saying would your dog jump up and bite the intruder in your vehicle, but would it have at least reacted excitedly, barking - looking for the sleeve. Enough to cause the intruder to think twice about sitting down and getting comfortable?


I don't think so at this point because like I said he doesn't have a bark yet. Maybe in the future perhaps - that's in fact always been my hope. At most I can get him agitated enough to bark at an intruder

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

simba405 said:


> a 1.5 year old dog should be barking EASILY. if a decoy cant agitate your dog to bark then yeah no chance it would bark at a drunk going into your car lol


He doesn't bark. It's very frustrating. We finally got some noise out of him today posting him alongside an older adult that barked.

My trainer says he thinks it because berlin just "doesn't care", I guess? He explained it much better than I can. As in he's so chill and stable, nothing phases him, nothing intimidates him. He's so non-reactive to his surroundings. He's the dog we drag out when we need to work with another dog that is super dog aggressive, because even with another dog lunging at him snarling he just sits there and works with me. He's not intimidated. He says pushing berlin to the point of actually barkong will be the hard part, but ibviously once he barks and wins itll be no problem

Trying the agitation work, the decoy popping in and out of the blind to try to get that prey bark, he's just like "yeah, I see you, whatever, can I get that tug now,"

The decoy then trying to physically agitate him, brushing him with the soft stick, poking at him, etc, while i keep him on a short line and ignore him. He got snarky and snapped at the decoy. But was more like "wtf are you doing man?" No barking

I will say even though I've been going to the club since he was 8 weeks old we've only largely started working with the actual decoy for the last 4 months or so. Tons and tons of tug work, drive out the ass. Amazing dog out there - just doesn't bark. Ever. He doesn't bark at home. my older boy does. Literally zeke will run along the fence line barking at someone and he sits there watching zeke. If someone comes to the door zeke will bark at the door but berlin just jumps in the bay window and stares at them. 

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Betty said:


> That's weird. If I was her i would report it because I don't think that is the official response.
> 
> I've always known 911 to give much more conservative advice.


Me too! And as I've said before everyone, I'm really sorry. I DO know better! ! I was SO stupid and just not thinking! 

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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> *Self defense is more about avoiding complacency and maintaining the proper mindset than training or equipment. Most situations can be avoided if you are thinking a about safety first.*
> 
> It's not something I do in the middle of the day, but anything out of the ordinary gets some scrutiny. I tend to take Fama with me when I leave the house. Having her with me puts me at ease, particularly when I'm in a situation that makes me uncomfortable. I know she has my back and it's comforting.
> 
> David Winners


Agreed. The first thing any good self defense course should teach is to stop acting like a victim. Women especially have a nasty habit of clutching their bags, hunching their shoulders, heads lowered and scampering along like a frightened deer.
Head up, eyes opened, hands down and walk like you mean it. Practice vocal control, not screaming but forceful, like you do with the dogs. And I don't think you need to be told, never, ever stop your car for a stranger.
Remember that our dogs are exposed on a daily basis to us fighting with neighbors, spouses, landlords, etc. It doesn't surprise me at all that he didn't react, and most pet dogs wouldn't. But teaching a defensive bark cue is really easy and handy for situations where you could use a bit of reinforcement.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

trcy said:


> I think it depends on the dog and the situation on whether they will protect or not. When I was a teenager a guy I was seeing came up from behind and unexpectedly picked me up. I was startled and let out a scream. Our very friendly, mellow golden retriever ran up and bit him right in the butt. I would never thought that dog would do that.
> 
> I don't really expect my dogs to protect me. I would hope they would bark or growl to alert there is a threat. Then I will protect us.


When zeke was about 3 my boyfriend at the time jokingly picked me up and threw me on the bed. We lived together and had gotten zeke together as a puppy. Zeke jumped up on his chest and slammed him onto the bed. Was he excited and playing? Probably. Or was he acting defensive because he saw me thrown down?

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> He doesn't bark. It's very frustrating. We finally got some noise out of him today posting him alongside an older adult that barked.
> 
> My trainer says he thinks it because berlin just "doesn't care", I guess? He explained it much better than I can. As in he's so chill and stable, nothing phases him, nothing intimidates him. He's so non-reactive to his surroundings. He's the dog we drag out when we need to work with another dog that is super dog aggressive, because even with another dog lunging at him snarling he just sits there and works with me. He's not intimidated. He says pushing berlin to the point of actually barkong will be the hard part, but ibviously once he barks and wins itll be no problem
> 
> ...




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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I think its cool that you took the time to tell your story. The message is important. Its a good example of how a person can put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation because having their dogs with them made it seem safe. I don't think its uncommon.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Yeah I grew up shooting with my dad. He had a special built gun safe and we had 13 guns when he passed away. I kept 2 of them. I consider myself very gun savy. I don't think 2 guns in a house is crazy? ?? Lol
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can never own enough firearms!!! I'm a firearms addict...haha....Also a licensed firearm dealer. I wish all the women in the US (who can legally own a firearm) had a concealed license. 
I'm glad everything turned out okay for. I bet you def learned from this mistake. Get that concealed license...haha


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Sinister has protected me before when 2 crackheads approached me in the alley by my house.


Sounds like you need to move to Idaho so our dogs can play together...I mean...so you don't have to worry about crackheads any more. There are no crackheads where I live, unless we're talking about hunters who want to go kill wolves (for no reason other than to say they shot a wolf) and donate their meat to me to feed my dogs who are on a raw diet. Wasn't that so nice of them to offer!? All we need is Mad Dog disease from eating their own kind, because Mad Cow wasn't bad enough. I consider these hunters/co-workers "crackheads" and avoid them in alleys (and at work) too!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

counter said:


> I agree with what you wrote, but it seems like ONLY maybe what, 5-10% of GSDs and/or other working lines these days would naturally protect without years of training? Some of these dogs, like you said, even with training still will not protect. Most of the people who own GSDs, or the average joe on this board, don't have a dog in that 5-10%. That's what I was referring to. Now, they could try to spend years to train their dog and maybe it will acquire the necessary skills and knowledge, but you won't be sure until you're in the real situation, not a staged scenario, and by then it's too late (if the dog ends up just watching or fleeing).


Sadly many working lines these days are no longer capable of PP work so cant disagree.
However, scenarios and the training process should tell you all you need to know about what the dog will do in a live bite scenario. It shouldnt be a mystery.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Very interesting.... I was telling my coworker this whole story - she said one night around the same time she passed a car stalled - so she smartly called 911 to report it and request a cruise check it out - she says the dispatcher actually lectured her and yelled at her for "not stopping to make sure they were ok". A lone female at 2 am!!! I realize what I did was extremely stupid - but to have police dispatch lecture you for NOT doing that?!?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I called 911 when I saw a large man laying on the side of the road in the dirt in the fetal position. They wanted to know why I did not stop and make sure he was ok. I just told them, I'm a female alone in my car. This is a large man. I don't know what is wrong with him or if he's taken drugs. I don't know what his reaction may be if I disturb him, but I do know he is capable of hurting me. They stopped that line of questioning really fast. 

On my way back I saw he had crossed the street and the police had him. There was also an ambulance and a paramedic there. I don't know what was wrong with him, but I got him help in the safest way I could.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

David Winners said:


> OT, but... A shotgun and pistol make your head spin? I owned both before my 13th birthday, and was proficient in their use. I guess it depends on the culture in which you were raised.
> 
> David Winners


Good for you.

We have guns......we are allowed them as we are primary producers but they must be locked away and we jumped through hoops to have a license. 
Most summers I shoot snakes around our house with a shotgun......big deal.
I don't have them sitting around to shoot intruders.......but I am funny that way 



Jmoore728 said:


> I wish all the women in the US (who can legally own a firearm) had a concealed license.


Yup ......that will make everyone so much safer.......


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sparra said:


> Yup ......that will make everyone so much safer.......


)))))))))


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

actually yes the more concealed carriers the more crime will go down
that is one reason law enforcement encourages the practice


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

It's not about the weapons. It's about being ready to use them. Most people are not. I can have a tank and I will be where I started. Someone can kill with two fingers.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> actually yes the more concealed carriers the more crime will go down
> that is one reason law enforcement encourages the practice


Not sure about crime going down. Deaths will go up though. Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked. 

You sure law enforcement endorses concealed carry? I'd love to read the article on it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> Not sure about crime going down. Deaths will go up though. Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked.
> 
> You sure law enforcement endorses concealed carry? I'd love to read the article on it.


Yeah Gosh. There would be guns going off willy nilly every time we saw a spider.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

or our hormone surges...dang kurig is too slow. BANG!


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

sparra said:


> Good for you.
> 
> We have guns......we are allowed them as we are primary producers but they must be locked away and we jumped through hoops to have a license.
> Most summers I shoot snakes around our house with a shotgun......big deal.
> I don't have them sitting around to shoot intruders.......but I am funny that way


Same here. We have two rifles to shoot kangaroos, foxes and rabbits, and whatever else needs shooting. They are stored away in a locked cabinet. We never think about shooting people, but we have never come across shady people either. Random people who come by our farm are usually either lost or their car broke down somewhere. We have no issues in helping them. Even if we did plan on shooting people it would probably take too long to find the key, open the cabinet, load the gun and then shoot . . . I am just amazed that you Americans are allowed to carry so many weapons. Most Australians that I know of don't even have guns, or have even fired one. Such a cultural difference, hey?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

What do they say in Texas? An armed society is a polite society? Not sure but up here in canada you cant walk around with a concealed weapon unless you are police or fancy security guards.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

simba405 said:


> Not sure about crime going down. Deaths will go up though. Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked.


:rofl:


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked.


this is one of the most ignorant things i have read all day
or possibly all year 

since law enforcement issues the permits yes i would say they are in favor of them
lemme guess
you dont have a ccw so you wouldnt know that :crazy:

here is your sign by the way
oops i mean study
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...enforcement-survey-results-executive-summary/


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

More guns does not equal more peace....


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Do you have to do some sort of training to get a license to carry a gun on you......Surely you would have to right?????


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you do if you want to be legal. The sad thing is, most criminals are not concerned with the rules.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Given the way many Americans seem to view the competence/judgement of their police officers.....I would take that survey with a grain of salt


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

lol you are not reading the right stories sparra 
and it is the officers opinions of the citizens not vise versa so not sure what you actually mean by your statement



> More guns does not equal more peace....


depends on whom is holding the guns doesnt it?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> you do if you want to be legal


That's good to hear....at least you then have to prove that you wouldn't shoot a spider


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

a gun would be safer than a flamethrower :shrug:
Man Burns Down House Trying To Kill Spider With Homemade Flamethrower


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I guess I am just referring to the many threads on here talking about the quality of the law enforcement over there.....Some seem to have little respect for your police officers.....trigger happy.....shooting pets......power hungry.......ego issues.....are these the same officers being surveyed???
They seem to have a higher opinion of the general publics abilities than the general public has of theirs.....unless the opinions expressed on here are not representative of the majority of Americans??


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Yeah Gosh. There would be guns going off willy nilly every time we saw a spider.


I mean the op didn't even know what gear her car was in. More likely to shoot herself in the foot than shoot the drunk dude. 

So I guess everyone's right. Not more Deaths. Hard to aim straight when your life is truly in danger.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Ace GSD said:


> More guns does not equal more peace....


Yeah, you're right... Look at Chicago...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sparra, it won't be long before you need a Fosters if you keep trying to make sense of all this.

 


I have had Ilda tested, but only to the point of how much a deterrent effect she has. She puts on a good show in the house and car. I call it a show because I have no idea if she will back up the barking. It may be one of those the 'bark is worse then the bite' scenarios.

But then I don't worry about it because I have a pretty good record of avoiding trouble and trouble makers and I don't plan on putting her in a position where she and I would be in danger.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

simba405 said:


> So I guess everyone's right. Not more Deaths. Hard to aim straight when your life is truly in danger.


That's why you practice. We have shooting ranges. Also, you never pull a gun unless you are going to use it. If you are going to use it you don't shoot to injure.....

The only way someone is going to get shot is if they come in my house uninvited to do me or my family harm.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> the many threads on here


lol this board is far far removed from every day life!
farrrrrrrrrrrrrrr removed


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

simba405 said:


> Not sure about crime going down. Deaths will go up though. Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked.
> 
> You sure law enforcement endorses concealed carry? I'd love to read the article on it.


That's fairly rude.

I live in Canada where we can't carry. I worked for many years arresting and detaining people without a weapon, and can tell you I am sincerely thankful for our gun control. I only had a gun pointed at me twice.
However I also lived in rural Montana for a couple of years, they have fascinating laws there. It is tempting to shoot the intruder on your property, but since I am from Canada I am aware that there are other ways that do not involve identifying which side of the gate the body landed on, or trying to erase drag marks


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

trcy said:


> That's why you practice. We have shooting ranges. Also, you never pull a gun unless you are going to use it. If you are going to use it you don't shoot to injure.....


Right. And if every women had a gun they would go to the range at least once a month to practice. Good luck with that!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

unless you are a woman with a ccw you really dont know how it is do you?
so why all the offensive sexist garbage?


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Right. And if every women had a gun they would go to the range at least once a month to practice. Good luck with that!


I can't control every woman or man. I can only control myself. I make sure I'm a very accurate shot.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> unless you are a woman with a ccw you really dont know how it is do you?
> so why all the offensive sexist garbage?


I am sorry that my opinion that the world would be a more dangerous place if every women had a gun is offensive to you .

See you are already riled up. Please don't shoot me?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

naw there are more effective ways to deal with you simb


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

simba405 said:


> Right. And if every women had a gun they would go to the range at least once a month to practice. Good luck with that!


I shoot daily. I used to shoot competitively. I have been in a situation where had to draw my gun in defense. That being said, while I find your overall sentiment incredibly offensive, I do agree that not all women, or men, should carry a firearm. It is so easy for someone to take it and use it against you if you are not 100% of the frame of mind that you will take a life to protect your own. A moment's hesitation, on top of not being 100% comfortable with the mechanics of the weapon (target shooting is vastly different than shooting for defense), opens the door for your weapon to be taken and used against you. 

Trust me, I know just as many men who have NO business carrying a weapon for defense. Gender has nothing to do with it.


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## swestypants (Jun 20, 2013)

I think it all comes down to the dog, the relationship you have with the dog, and the situation. Judah is only a little over a year, but he has had a number of opportunities to prove himself to me - he's never bitten anyone, and i do not believe that is a requirement to be considered protective. He consistently puts himself between myself and anyone whom I am uncomfortable with. We hike a lot, and there was a point where we hiked every saturday morning on this particular trail, after a couple weeks we started noticing this older man who was up on the trail above us (there were three sets of trails for various uses around this set of lakes) he didnt speak to us at all, till one day when he made me quite uncomfortable - he had a bottle of liquor and was stumbling around, he started yelling at me, called me a few choice words...apparently he didnt see Judah this time. As soon as he started yelling, Judah placed himself between this man and myself, and stayed there until we were far enough down the trail to which i knew we could out run this old drunk if we needed to... The entire time Judah had a low growl, after a deep bark to let the guy know to bug off.. Granted it was situations like this that caused me to begin open carrying in Michigan (okay theres my opinion on guns, not gonna discuss it though haha) however that was the first event to where Judah "protected" me. 

We've done enough traveling in the car, and Judah knows that it's his second home. On our move from Michigan to California, I found a rest area in Nebraska with a good amount of shade, so i crashed out with my seat back, windows rolled down about 6 inches, and didnt worry about anything - because my dog was with me. Even so much of someone stopping to admire him on the sidewalk that evening started a low rumble and his hair to stand up. 

Mind you he is HIGHLY socialized. But he is also HIGHLY in tune with me. Another reason I say it depends on the dog is because I did not train him to be this way. He has absolutely no formal training in anything except being a trail dog and going everywhere with me. When my anxiety in a situation goes up, his does too. Our move to California caused a lot of personal stress for me, that I had to recognize and manage because he was feeding off of my anxiety. He was always on alert, and it took a few days after we got settled for him to mentally turn off. So I disagree with the initial statement that your dog is likely never going to protect you....granted my dog and your dogs are just two examples in a huge pool of genetics, lifestyle and training, i truthfully believe that to make a blanket statement like that probably isn't true. 

Though on that note, I don't rely on Judah. I let his presence be one level of "protection" and my situational awareness and other defense choices be the second level. My everyday carry is a tactical hand to hand combat fixed blade knife and when legal (working on that again now that I've moved) my firearm. I am discouraged by the sexist comments I've read... but its not worth discussing because frankly some of it is just so ignorant i know my point wouldn't be heard. But at that, until you've been in a situation where had you had a means of self defense, I feel as though you should not be able to reflect your ideals on somebody else. My life experiences thus far give me more than enough reason to carry a pistol in my shorts. (Bullseye 100yards with a rifle, every shot on paper in a self defense training situation. You wanna talk about airheads with guns...maybe you shouldn't be looking at the female gender..  )


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> You wouldn't believe the number of men I know who are terrible shots... Laughably bad... You want to throw around stereotypes of airheaded women with guns, I know more than a few macho idiots with bad tempers who would be just as reckless.


Lol I definitely agree with this. Throw in the hot tempered men and next thing you know we'll all be dead and dogs will rule the world. More guns doesn't equal more safe.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

What I would like to know is how many people that carry weapons legally would have pulled it on the guy who jumped in the car in the Op's post?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> Not sure about crime going down. Deaths will go up though. *Last thing we need are women shooting every time they're spooked. *





Sabis mom said:


> That's fairly rude.
> 
> ... It is tempting to shoot the intruder on your property, *but since I am from Canada I am aware that there are other ways* that do not involve identifying which side of the gate the body landed on, or trying to erase drag marks



hmmm....I'm not sure which comment is most rude. At least Simba's could be made into something humorous. Maybe I need to be from Canada to know the answer.


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## swestypants (Jun 20, 2013)

llombardo said:


> What I would like to know is how many people that carry weapons legally would have pulled it on the guy who jumped in the car in the Op's post?


It depends on your state laws as far as legally pulling a weapon in the vehicle..safely well that's a whole different animal.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

llombardo said:


> What I would like to know is how many people that carry weapons legally would have pulled it on the guy who jumped in the car in the Op's post?


There would be no need to and I can not legally carry a gun on me or in my car. From what I read he was not acting in a threatening way. She was scared and had stopped thinking rationally. You have to remain calm. 

I would never be in that situation. As soon as I get in the car I lock the doors. I would never pull over or stop to help if I'm alone and especially if my dogs are in the car. As I stated above, I call 911 or the sheriff department directly if I think someone needs help.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> hmmm....I'm not sure which comment is most rude. At least Simba's could be made into something humorous. Maybe I need to be from Canada to know the answer.


Take it any way you like. I am a woman, and I always hit what I aim for. Since none of the men I know would make such a hateful, sexist comment about woman and guns, I can only conclude that perhaps Americans have a different code of conduct.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Take it any way you like. I am a woman, and I always hit what I aim for. Since none of the men I know would make such a hateful, sexist comment about woman and guns, I can only conclude that perhaps Americans have a different code of conduct.


So, making generalizations about an entire populous based on one person on a forum, one can conclude that all Canadians are....hypocrites? Just kidding, I know many Canadians that I like. I also know a few that are scumbags. I try not to stereotype. 


Anyways, wasn't a Mountie just killed because of some nut on a shooting spree? Sorry to blow a hole in your judgmental logic.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)




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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Since none of the men I know would make such a hateful, sexist comment about woman and guns,


what did i say that was hateful? that we dont need women shooting every time they are spooked? sensitive much?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sparra said:


> I guess I am just referring to the many threads on here talking about the quality of the law enforcement over there.....Some seem to have little respect for your police officers.....trigger happy.....shooting pets......power hungry.......ego issues.....are these the same officers being surveyed???
> They seem to have a higher opinion of the general publics abilities than the general public has of theirs.....unless the opinions expressed on here are not representative of the majority of Americans??


The opinions expressed on here are not representative of the majority of Americans. 

I am more than happy with the quality of law enforcement. 

That being said law enforcement isn't always around. Both my daughters were given there first .22 at age 10 and taught how to use them safely and accurately.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

simba405 said:


> what did i say that was hateful? that we dont need women shooting every time they are spooked? sensitive much?


Or men. Bullets flying every time someone says "come at me, bro"? No thanks.

Hateful, no... Stupid, definitely. But I suppose we never were a nation renowned for our intelligence. You apparently bear the standard of conduct for us all, Simba. What a heavy burden.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> That's fairly rude.
> 
> I live in Canada where we can't carry. I worked for many years arresting and detaining people without a weapon, and can tell you I am sincerely thankful for our gun control. I only had a gun pointed at me twice.
> However I also lived in rural Montana for a couple of years, they have fascinating laws there. It is tempting to shoot the intruder on your property, but since I am from Canada I am aware that there are other ways that do not involve identifying which side of the gate the body landed on, or trying to erase drag marks


I live in CA. I have not tried, but I understand it's very difficult to get a ccw in this state. So, I don't carry. The CA gun control laws have recently irritated me. I can't legally get the gun I want in CA, because the manufacturer will not microstamp their firing pins. Other than that the gun would be perfectly legal to have and other guns like it are legal here. *smh*. The gun control laws do nothing to stop the criminals. Ask Chicago. 

Here in CA we can not shoot somebody on our property even if they are in the secured back yard. They have to be inside the house. As for dragging bodies....yeah, NO! I think that with the technology of today that would be figured out really quickly. lol. On a serious note, here in CA if I walk out my front door with an unloaded gun in sight I can be arrested and jailed. I know somebody this happened to. They are serious in my state. 

I take guns seriously. They are not toys. I know the laws and I know how to use them. As long as somebody doesn't break and enter into my home then everybody is perfectly safe. Well, they would probably have to be threatening me. When the naked man came in my house I just stared at him shocked, but he did not make any movements toward me. He just stopped and said Hi, then he turned around and walked into another room and eventually out of the house. My husband was on the other side of the house. I asked if he was playing some kind of joke on me. When I told home what happened he did search the house with a gun, but the man wasn't inside the house anymore. That was before we had dogs. The cats didn't care who came in.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> Or men. Bullets flying every time someone says "come at me, bro"? No thanks.
> 
> Hateful, no... Stupid, definitely. But I suppose we never were a nation renowned for our intelligence. *You apparently bear the standard of conduct for us all,* Simba. What a heavy burden.



No, I would not tar everyone with the same brush.

However if guns are the answer, can someone tell me why the US has a higher rate per capita of robberies, rapes, murders and assaults? As well as 3 times the rate of violent crimes involving guns?


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## swestypants (Jun 20, 2013)

trcy said:


> Here in CA we can not shoot somebody on our property even if they are in the secured back yard. They have to be inside the house. As for dragging bodies....yeah, NO! I think that with the technology of today that would be figured out really quickly. lol. On a serious note, here in CA if I walk out my front door with an unloaded gun in sight I can be arrested and jailed. I know somebody this happened to. They are serious in my state.
> 
> I take guns seriously. They are not toys. I know the laws and I know how to use them. As long as somebody doesn't break and enter into my home then everybody is perfectly safe.


See, perfect example of a gun owner who obeys the laws...the difference is the people not like us are the ones that get on the news... but we're the ones penalized. Before I register with the state I have to decide whether to do it before I'm financially in a place to transfer all of my crap over here, and keep the pistol I currently have.... or do it when I can responsibly afford it and risk my firearm being one that I can't legally register in the state because of some stupid law that might come up in January.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> No, I would not tar everyone with the same brush.
> 
> However if guns are the answer, can someone tell me why the US has a higher rate per capita of robberies, rapes, murders and assaults? As well as 3 times the rate of violent crimes involving guns?


One word: Chicago. Oh, DC is a good one too.

There's no simple answer for that. What is really shocking is that the cities responsible for those crazy crime rates also have the strictest gun control. Living in one of those areas, where it is easy to be a victim, is exactly why I got a gun, and it saved my life.

Areas where there is a greater number of law abiding citizens who are armed really do see less crime. Of course, correlation is not causation- they also tend to be more rural areas. I live in an area now where the MAJORITY of people own firearms and our violent crime rate is extremely low.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> Take it any way you like. I am a woman, and I always hit what I aim for. Since none of the men I know would make such a hateful, sexist comment about woman and guns, I can only conclude that perhaps Americans have a different code of conduct.


I am also a woman who 'hits what I aim for" and I find your attitude far more insulting so I can only conclude, based on your statement as you appear to be basing your opinion of Americans off of one statement, that perhaps Canadians are rude and ignorant in their haste to trash Americans. I don't find merit in either of your posts.

I am always amazed at people who are insulted by a statement but feel free to throw out such judgmental, offensive opinions based on their own limited knowledge and then respond with "so what if you are offended by what I said". 

Am I the only one that sees the irony in that?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Or men. Bullets flying every time someone says "come at me, bro"? No thanks.
> 
> Hateful, no... Stupid, definitely. But I suppose we never were a nation renowned for our intelligence. You apparently bear the standard of conduct for us all, Simba. What a heavy burden.


lol well i would like to apologize in advance if the canadians invade the US.

to the question of would i shoot in her situation? all i know is if you intentionally stop your car for someone and then end up shooting them you'd have a whole lot of explaining to do.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Years ago I used to drive a cab while I was in college and I had a scare. I was coming from downtown Chicago and was closest to a call in a not to good area of Chicago. I had to make a left and was behind another car, but I could see a group of guys that didn't look to nice, my first thought was to roll up the windows and lock the doors, which I did. A very good decision, as I turned the corner they rushed my car, trying to open my doors. The only thing I could do was floor it, with this guy on my hood holding on for dear life and looking at me through my windshield. He finally rolled off and I made it down the block. As I'm looking in my mirrors I see the whole group running at me and some coming through yards. The scary part, one of them had a gun and pulled it. I would have been dead if I couldn't get down the street. Never again did I drive without having my doors locked.


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## swestypants (Jun 20, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> There's no simple answer for that. What is really shocking is that the cities responsible for those crazy crime rates also have the strictest gun control. Living in one of those areas, where it is easy to be a victim, is exactly why I got a gun, and it saved my life.
> 
> Areas where there is a greater number of law abiding citizens who are armed really do see less crime. Of course, correlation is not causation- they also tend to be more rural areas.


You're right, when you look at the break down of cities, typically their strict gun control laws match up with crime rates. Higher crime rates also happen on school campuses....where guns typically are not allowed. 

When I could open carry before I applied to conceal carry in Michigan, I never ran into people who had an issue with my firearm..there are many other reasons outside of dangerous humans to carry a firearm..however I did not open carry outside of my property or the trails because I respect people and don't wanna cause fear for anyone who doesn't agree with me or might be fearful of guns.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> lol well i would like to apologize in advance if the canadians invade the US.
> 
> to the question of would i shoot in her situation? all i know is if you intentionally stop your car for someone and then end up shooting them you'd have a whole lot of explaining to do.


Well..at least you apologized for it. I'm only 4 hours from the border so I'll be one of the first to be overrun. Geesh...I hope they are relatives! But I guess they'll be taking North Dakota.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are multiple socioeconomic reasons for higher crime rates that have nothing to do with carrying guns.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm going back to Facebook where the Canadians like me.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Well..at least you apologized for it. I'm only 4 hours from the border so I'll be one of the first to be overrun. Geesh...I hope they are relatives! But I guess they'll be taking North Dakota.


We've got lots of 'em up here, but they all speak French. They're probably plotting aranoid: 

In all seriousness, in most areas of our country, gun ownership is the norm. Violent crime is not. In NH everyone hunts or shoots recreationally, many people carry concealed (some carry open and nobody cares, that was shocking when I moved here). Violent crimes are extremely rare here. You take out California, Chicago, and DC, where socioeconomic factors are abundant, our crime rate actually isn't that high. In places where poverty levels are extreme, the gun bans have created a thriving black market, which in turn makes crime increase more.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree, LoveEcho. The major cities, even the minor cities such as Scranton and Binghamton, have a higher crime rate. But in rural areas and small towns our crime rates are actually very low.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Wasnt there a study done that concluded that municipalities with less gone control have less violent crime. Im not going to bother to look it up but I recall reading something about it.

In case this wasnt already glaringly obvious criminals dont obey gun control laws, nor do they care if its a "gun free zone". Up here we have strict gun control laws, it doesnt stop the criminals from offing each other and few innocents on an ongoing basis.

Personally I much prefer the dog option, less final and you can pet it too..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sigh. Not that it's on topic...

There's plenty of ways to slice those stats up.


Overall violent crime is down since the 60s and 70s. 

You're more likely to be a victim of violent crime at the hands of someone you know not a stranger. 

Victims of domestic violence are more likely to be killed in homes with guns.

Children are more likely to be shot and wounded or killed in homes with guns.

Many people live their entire lives never really needing or owning a firearm. Hard to imagine but it's true.

The fact that so many desperately want it to be a necessity for life in this country is the problem.

Thus far I've not ever heard of anyone being shot with their own dog though....just saying, it's a dog forum.......


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I am also a woman who 'hits what I aim for" and I find your attitude far more insulting so I can only conclude, based on your statement as you appear to be basing your opinion of Americans off of one statement, that *perhaps Canadians are rude and ignorant in their haste to trash Americans. I don't find merit in either of your posts.
> *
> I am always amazed at people who are insulted by a statement but feel free to throw out such judgmental, offensive opinions based on their own limited knowledge and then respond with "so what if you are offended by what I said".
> 
> Am I the only one that sees the irony in that?


Canadians are not hasty about anything, lol, watch the Tims commercials. But yes I am offended by nasty, sexist comments with no justification. And the only reason Canada would have to invade America would be to get our water back

BTW it was a LEO in Montana who educated me about the importance of property lines and dragging the body back, I was just quoting him.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> <snipped>
> Personally I much prefer the dog option, less final and you can pet it too..


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This isn't the appropriate vehicle to discuss gun control laws. Discuss dogs and the likelyhood of your dog protecting you, and leave the crime and cultural attitudes about weapons out of it please. I was going to lock the thread, but maybe I'll give it a chance to get back on topic. 

ADMIN


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> those stats


you have heard of lies darned lies and statistics right?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

simba405 said:


> I mean the op didn't even know what gear her car was in. More likely to shoot herself in the foot than shoot the drunk dude.
> 
> So I guess everyone's right. Not more Deaths. Hard to aim straight when your life is truly in danger.


Ignorant at best, sexist ******* seems more likely at this point. 

I've been shooting since I was 7 or 8 years old. I've been shooting my 9 mm for 17 years. I have considered getting my concealed carry permit not only for even more training and assurance that I know what I'm doing and doing it properly, but also for the fact that I frequently hike/bike/camp in backwoods areas in one of the largest mountain ranges in North america. There's potentially some nasty wildlife out there. I've seen 140lb dogs killed by cougars. I always take a firearm camping.

I don't know when this turned into a discussion on guns, or the wimpy feminine ways of women, but if I were to ever pull a gun on a human, and that's a very big IF, it would be for a dam good reason and I would dam well know what I was doing.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> What I would like to know is how many people that carry weapons legally would have pulled it on the guy who jumped in the car in the Op's post?


I would not of pulled a gun but I sure as **** would of given him a good shot of mace in the face

But that's only because, believe it or not, I realize I would of been in no mental state at that level to rationally use a firearm. Just another reason I want to take more shooting courses, and self defense, because I realize that I definitely need to sharpen those skills

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

simba405 said:


> lol well i would like to apologize in advance if the canadians invade the US.
> 
> to the question of would i shoot in her situation? all i know is if you intentionally stop your car for someone and then end up shooting them you'd have a whole lot of explaining to do.


This baffles me slightly. In my situation no this man did nothing. No he should no of been shot. And as i said I NEVER would of pulled a gun in the state of mind I was in.

However just because someone makes a STUPID mistake, but not an illegal one (stopping one's car to ask a question out a window) - then they are entitled to whatever illegally may happen to them?

You can not get into someone's car because they stop to talk to you. If i leave my purse sitting on a park bench by mistake does that give you the right to steal my wallet out of it?

Could I not of shot him if he had of tried to physically overcome me or sexually molest me? Because you know, I stopped? Maybe we should release all rapists too. We all know those girls shouldn't of been wearing shorts after nightfall. Men obviously can't control themselves.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> This isn't the appropriate vehicle to discuss gun control laws. Discuss dogs and the likelyhood of your dog protecting you, and leave the crime and cultural attitudes about weapons out of it please. I was going to lock the thread, but maybe I'll give it a chance to get back on topic.
> 
> ADMIN


I apologize I just now read this and will discuss the gun issue no further - as I don't know why it was such an issue in the first place. Just felt the need to defend myself, justified or not.

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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I find it ironic that a person who keeps a shotgun hanging above the stairs and a 9 mm in a draw would even think about stopping at 2 am to assist a man waving her down on a highway.......  
Thank goodness you got away....who knows what their intentions were.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this thread has gone so far off topic I think it's done, so I'm closing it.


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