# Am I a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder?!?



## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I have one female that I plan on using for breeding with a good stud. My dog is NOT titled but has certified hips.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Depends on your reasons for wanting to breed, your understanding of how the pedigrees of your mating pair mesh together, and the goal you are trying to achieve.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Does she have any working qualifications (herding, service, sar, protection)? Do you have her pedigree? Is her pedigree one that is worth passing on? 
Do you know how to match her with a male who will not just compliment her, but has a pedigree that would mesh well with hers?
Have you had a 3rd, unbiased party test her temperament to provide confirmation that she has one suitable to the breed standard? How does she stack up against the standard for conformation?

What is your ultimate goal in breeding your girl? Are you willing and able to, at any point in ANY of her puppies' lives, take the animal back? 

Big questions that make a big difference.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Check out how much goes into a dog a responsible breeder is planning to breed-- Scroll down to see everything:

SG Wiva vom Drache Feld BH, AD, CGC - NADAR K9


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honestly, if you are asking the question you are above a BYB. Most don't even ask. 

That said. A good hobby breeder will have basic breed worthy tests done in their breeding stock. SAR, SchH, AKC obedience, agility. Something to probe the female is worthy of breeding. There are experienced breeders/owners/handlers that don't do that with their female breeding stock. But to do that you need tons of experience evaluating and testing stock. 

I wish you luck. I would also suggest you have your girl tested for DM, elbow dysphasia, and thyroid issues. 


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks I will have some testing done on her, but titles would be hard to achieve considering I got her as an adult.(replying to gsdsar)


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Hobby breeders are registered, they normally are owners of titled dogs in shows and competitions, have only one or two against a professional licenced breeder who has few females.
Of course, you can find a stud, pay his owner and, most likely say good bye to him. What are you going to do with puppies?


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## Vaks (Dec 30, 2011)

I have a female (France imported), she have AD, SG, BH, hips / elbows OFA certified
She have had a litter in November 2011. 12 puppies.

Our experience?

Very difficult to sell the puppies.

Very very difficult to find good families.

5 families have not kept their puppy.

1 puppy was resold to four months and again at 14 months
1 puppy was resold to 8 months
1 puppy was resold to 11 months
1 puppy was resold to 16 months
1 puppy was resold to 20 months

We helped to find new families for all puppies. We have lived stress, sadness, anger.

Let us repeat litter & puppies?

Never!

Oh no!! Never! 



Hélène


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

HeidiGS said:


> titles would be hard to achieve considering I got her as an adult.


They shouldn't be, if the dog is physically and mentally sound.

It might not be possible to get top-level titles and championships in multiple sports, depending on how old she is and how much time and money you feel like investing into campaigning your dog. But you should certainly be able to put on a few lower-level obedience, Rally, and agility titles if you want -- and, in the process, get a good sense of who your dog is and what makes her breedworthy.

Titles will also help attract higher-caliber homes.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

WHY do you want to breed your dog? The answer to that question will tell you whether you are a BYB or not.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I plan on keeping one puppy(not sure yet though) and selling the others... Now I'm worried about it... I worry a lot...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Read this forum, learn what it takes, and then make a decision. 

Breeding - General - German Shepherd Dog Forums


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Okay will do


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Out of respect for the animal I think you should wait until you are more experienced before going breeding a litter, simply because you feel like it or want a new pup. 

I think you should have at least 5 years training dogs before attempting a breeding. You might then understand what you are breeding for. 

How many dogs do you have and what age are they?

Why not learn how to train the dogs first and provide a good home to what you have.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I fostered a litter for the shelter (mutts) and never again because I wouldn't trust anyone with the pups. There are too many GSDs in rescue to justify to breed her. Know that many people breed their dog because they are in awe with her or him.
Just get a good puppy from a reputable breeder and you will bond just as well as with one of your own dog.
This last year I have met 3 intact females with their owners and all three asked for a breeding with WD. I referred them to WD's breeder as he created this dog and has this wealth of experience and knowledge. I am not going to breed him (unless his breeder request a breeding). I don't want the responsibility of creating an entire litter. Even though he would be the sire I am just as responsible for all the pups as the owner of the female.
So ask yourself if you are willing to take all these pups back as adults if their owners can no longer keep them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HeidiGS said:


> I plan on keeping one puppy(not sure yet though) and selling the others... Now I'm worried about it... I worry a lot...


As well you SHOULD worry! Breeding a litter, and doing it the RIGHT way, is a lot of work, time, money, blood sweat & tears, sleepless nights, and more worrying...

So, why do you want to breed your bitch? Just so you can have one puppy?


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

No, I will think on it. Please don't make this an argument...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HeidiGS said:


> I plan on keeping one puppy(not sure yet though) and selling the others... Now I'm worried about it... I worry a lot...


So you just want a puppy from her?

My trainer had a contract that she *had *to breed her bitch once after all proper testing and titles attained. If it didn't take, she was done. If it did, she only had to have one litter. 

The day she went into labor I got an email....

"All classes for Thursday and Friday are canceled. All puppies dead, emergency c-section, emergency spay. Don't know xxxx's prognosis yet."

She almost lost her dog. A dog that is top 10 in the country in agility for her breed last year.

So you really need to ask yourself...is wanting one puppy worth risking your female for?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Heidi, breeding is a very serious thing. 
Everyone on this board LOVES this breed, that's why we're here. We're very protective over them. 

There isn't anyone trying to start an argument. What we're trying to do is educate you. Breeding for the purpose of possibly keeping one puppy is NOT a responsible practice. Breeding for money is not responsible. Breeding without doing anything and everything to learn about the breed, the standard, the pedigrees, etc is not responsible.
If you plan to breed, and you don't want to be labeled a BYB, you need to make sure you're breeding for the right reasons. You'll need to be able to find GREAT homes for the puppies. The easiest way to do this is to have parents who are proven as breedworthy dogs. 
You also need to be willing to take back any of the puppies at any point in their life. If one is diagnosed with DM at age 13, will you take it back because the family who got him/her can no longer care for them?


I also agree with the above post. Are you prepared for the possibility of losing your female to try and get that one litter?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

If all you really want is another puppy just like her, go back to the breeder you got your bitch from, and get another pup from the same bloodline. Trust me, it will be a TON easier.

If you're thinking you're going to make some money by breeding a litter, think again. There are so many things that can go wrong that will cost you money in vet bills, you might actually lose money breeding a litter. And what if she has a large litter and the pups won't sell? Can you imagine having 10+ five month old puppies in your home?


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I know, I understand and I definitely don't want anything to go wrong... Thanks for helping.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

WHY are you breeding is the question. What standards does she actually conform to? Just because she has papers and you love her is NOT a valid reasin

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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> WHY are you breeding is the question. What standards does she actually conform to? Just because she has papers and you love her is NOT a valid reasin
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She just wanted a puppy from her wonderful dog. 

I can certainly understand the sentiment. 

But I do I think she understands now. 

Heidi, people here are a wonderful resource for where to get great dogs, should you want another puppy. Enjoy your girl and don't worry about breeding. It is much more of a headache than any of us could have imagined, before we learned what it really entailed.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

If you do breed and there are complications or problems with puppy development. It is like having a full time second job. It can become very expensive, stressful, and deadly to the bitch and pups.
I put endless hours into my litters. Assisting with feeding if mom isn't supplying enough milk, helping to assist the bitch with the pups and making them use the bathroom if she's not doing it well enough, weighing every day, handling the pups, vaccines, deworming, and sleepless nights with sick puppies.

I would make sure that your dog has excellent genetics before ever breeding. It's a lot of work just to produce a litter of pups so you can have one and hope the rest actually go to a forever home. 

Breed for the love and promotion of the breed. Breed for quality, soundness, character, temperament, and health. Only breed her to a male who has a pedigree that compliments hers. Research, Research, Research!!! The pedigrees of possible studs. References and progeny research are both valuable.

Just be ready to put in a lot of time if this is what you want to do. It takes a very strong commitment and dedicated person. 
BYB's are in it for money with little time invested into the pups. They usually have no idea what the pedigrees are and if they do they don't understand how their breeding program works or doesn't work for the betterment of the blood line. Working or for show; breed the best that you can breed or don't breed at all!
I hope this helps you with your question.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Vaks said:


> Our experience?
> 
> Very difficult to sell the puppies.
> 
> ...


Helene, that you lived this stress of multiple rehomings and took responsibility for the well-being the puppies you created reflects your excellent ethics.

To me, as a rescuer, after all is said and done, this is the ethical commitment that separates the responsible breeders from the BYB. The ethical breeders remain a safety-net for the lives they have created. They take care of rehoming when initial buyers don't work out. Their dogs will never, ever have to die alone with strangers in a shelter. 

Kudos, Helene!


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## Vaks (Dec 30, 2011)

Magwart said:


> Helene, that you lived this stress of multiple rehomings and took responsibility for the well-being the puppies you created reflects your excellent ethics.
> 
> To me, as a rescuer, after all is said and done, this is the ethical commitment that separates the responsible breeders from the BYB. The ethical breeders remain a safety-net for the lives they have created. They take care of rehoming when initial buyers don't work out. Their dogs will never, ever have to die alone with strangers in a shelter.
> 
> Kudos, Helene!


But the total of work for an ethical breeder beyond anything you can imagine.



Hélène


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup: Yup.

...and scroll down, ALL the way down. 

(It will be interesting and an education to learn which male Ash picks for Wiva when she is ready for her first litter. I'm sure it will be one heck of a litter!)

(in edit: looks like the OP understands and Kudos to her for being willing to listen and be open to new information and advice! A lot of people are so stubborn and unwilling to consider all the pros and cons with making a decision to breed, they come on the board and then don't take heed. You did! Best to you!  )




Sunflowers said:


> Check out how much goes into a dog a responsible breeder is planning to breed-- Scroll down to see everything:
> 
> SG Wiva vom Drache Feld BH, AD, CGC - NADAR K9


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

HeidiGS said:


> Thanks I will have some testing done on her, but titles would be hard to achieve considering I got her as an adult.(replying to gsdsar)


I won't answer the original question (I don't really see any value in labels,...either I will buy from a breeder or not), but I don't understand this statement? Can you elaborate? Is there something wrong with the dog that makes her not able to earn titles? Many earn titles with adult dogs. My first dog I got when she was 3.5 and she got nearly a dozen titles. My next dog is almost 5 and we still have many goals and titles yet to earn. For me titles are not a means to an end, we don't earn them just so we can use them to justify breeding but it is what the dogs DO, they have sports and working type venues that they love and keep them physically fit and mentally challenged throughout their lives.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Vaks said:


> I have a female (France imported), she have AD, SG, BH, hips / elbows OFA certified
> She have had a litter in November 2011. 12 puppies.
> 
> Our experience?
> ...


Holy moly, I hope you tell your story to everyone who comes on here to breed dogs. Good for you in finding homes for the five puppies, and thank you for sharing your experiences.


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## Vaks (Dec 30, 2011)

We are traumatized by this experience  realy.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorry if I missed it, but how old is your female? 

My Pomeranian didn't start training in anything until he was about a year and a half old. Now he's 3 and you can see the flyball titles he has in my signature. He's literally one heat away (that's a single run in flyball) from getting his FDCh-S. I plan on putting him into dock diving and agility. 
The only reason he doesn't have more titles on him is due to money restraints. If I was able to afford to train him in more venues, he'd have more titles. Unfortunately, I work part time at a low paying job, so what I can do with him is very limited. But adult dogs CAN get titles.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

A little over a year old.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

HeidiGS said:


> A little over a year old.


That is not old too old at all! Many people don't start training in various sports until over a year or even later. I started agility training when my dog was 1.5 years old and he has over 30 titles and counting. We started Nose Work when he was 6 and he is now titled in that too, and we'll be continuing on to the next level. We just started tracking training and my goal is a TD early next year, he'll be 8.

Edit: How does she have certified hips at a year old?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

heidi, every time you think of breeding your girl, please come to this thread and read helene's posts. please do not breed your dog.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i got my current dog from a hobby breeder. hands down the best dog i've ever owned. he costs me 800 and i'd put him up against any dog that costs 2000+. the breeder provided me with both pedigrees of the dam and sire as well as their akc registration number and both ofa serial numbers so i can check myself. the sire was doing k9 pro sports (a variation of schutzhund) and the dam had her bh. if you cant even provide a pedigree or ofa numbers then i'd consider you a byb. when i picked up my pup, he still had 2 females that were unsold. if you dont own a nice popular kennel it's much harder to find good buyers for the pups. its very very easily to sell a litter because german shepherds are popular. its easy to craigslist a litter. if you breed your dog and her pedigree isnt very good and she doesnt excel in any sport then the real dedicated people wont want your pups and you'll most likely put them on craigslist. 

also the statement that it's too late to title her just proves to me you are most definitely a byb. without titles you cant prove that your pup is worth a lick in terms of temperment or drive. anyone who is serious about a good german shepherd pup would want some proof that their dog comes from good blood. but like i said, craigslist people dont care. just put a low price and the pups sell like hot cakes


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I know, I decided not to breed her


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

thank you. you'll be glad. 

ps...it's a wise and mature person who can come to a good decision even in the midst of people, in a way, being critical.


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

Heidi- I complenent you on making choices that are best for your dog and what you are capable of dealing with. As a breeder i can tell you that so much time goes into puppies that it can be a emotional roller coaster. 
Dogs Must be 24 month in the USA to get their hips Certified with OFA
Dogs in Germany and Czech will have this done at 12 months or older. 
Right now learn from the dog you have and then one day if you feel that you can make a commitment to breed a dog find a long time breeder to help you make good decisions a good breeder will want to help educate you.
Again I commend your open mind and making a choice that is best for the breed and your dog and long term you as well. 
I wish you many happy years with your dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I know you already took a decision, yet I wanted to throw my 2 cents...

To me is not about how many titles or health certificates your dog has. It's not even what your puppy contract says nor how hard will be to get a pup from you.

To me breeding is the graduation of the German Shepherd University. When you have studied the breed for years, their history, bloodlines, temperament, structure, reproduction, genetic. After you have trained a few and met hundred of others, when you have been involved with breed clubs, training clubs, other breeders (good and bad, you learn from everything) then and only then you are a professional and not a BYB.

Hobby breeder or commercial breeder... I don't care how much money is involved if done with professionalism.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent post Catu. :thumbup:


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I know many hobby breeders of various breeds, but not GSDs. All of them show in conformation. Some will also dabble in Rally or Agility if they are between show dogs. 

With the 3-way split on GSD's I understand showing in conformation may be futile for some otherwise nice dogs. However, knowing your breed-type and having a goal for the future is a big part of hobby breeding.


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