# Dogs Naturally article on 'Naturally Immunizing'



## blackshep

Prevent Parvo and Distemper Without Vaccination | Dogs Naturally Magazine

What do you guys think about this article?

I am all for following a limited vaccination schedule, and doing titers, but this article is suggesting you purposely try to expose your puppies to parvo & distemper by taking them to ponds that raccoons are known to frequent.

It's also saying that pups have higher survival rates when treated with homeopathic medicine than conventional medicine. Which is fine and dandy, but is it not better to prevent it, rather than treat it?

Considering the high mortality rate of the diseases, and the fact that the AVMA published a journal stating that 95%+ and 97%+ of dogs vaccinated have lifelong immunity, it seems silly to take the risk?

Thoughts?

When I expressed my disapproval to the article on the FB group, my comments were deleted and I was banned.  Am I the only one who think this article is putting dangerous ideas into people's heads?


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## NancyJ

I agree with you i think there's a lot in that magazine I like but some stuff is just wacky an off the wall


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## my boy diesel

i find it amusing that so many shun the so called big pharma in favor of natural treatments when natural treatments cost way more than conventional medications
i looked up parvaid once and it is very expensive plus you have to wait for it to arrive when everyone knows every second counts when treating parvo

people will always buy dangerous ideas like this because they sound so convincing and they are already convinced vets are evil and cause disease just so they can have clients 
strange ideas at the very least


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## blackshep

I just think it's so dangerous to give out that advice. And the fact that anyone who disagrees with banned is just nuts. So anyone reading their FB page and seeing all the glowing comments, just keep in mind they delete the negative reviews and ban the people who posted them.

Two thumbs down for DN for me. 

The first time they posted the article (which garnered overwhelmingly negative feedback - the whole link ended up being deleted) I sent the link to Dr Jean Dobbs' assistant. She said they had just received it from someone else and Dr Dobbs was unsure about whether or she should respond to it in her blog. I wish she had, someone should.


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## Shade

I agree with Nancy, some of their stuff makes sense but other stuff like this article just has me shaking my head. No thank you, I would never consider not vaccinating my puppy and then deliberately try to make them sick with something that can kill them

Oh wait, because it's *natural* that makes it better, yeah try telling that to me when I'm walking out of their office after my 12 week old puppy just died. I'm going to feel so much better that I didn't poison my dog with that vaccine before they died...

If my vet told me to do that, I’d be walking out seconds afterwards. Wacky stuff, seriously. Do I vaccinate every year? Heck no and I do agree that over vaccinating can cause serious problem. I'm not willing to bet those odds, but if a doctor like Dr. Dodd's who has spent decades researching vaccines says to give the puppy series and my vet who I do trust agrees with her then that's what I'll do. Minimized risk


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## blackshep

Dr Dodds, not Dobbs. lol

My sister's doctor is Dr Dobbs.


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## N Smith

I completely agree - I LOVE a lot of the articles in Dogs Naturally, but this one sticks out to me as being one that can cause some serious problems with people who see the article, think "well its in a magazine"...then go out and follow it without a second thought.

I keep up with Dr. Dodd's protocols and follow her blog. She has a very limited puppy protocol with vaccines that I trust and follow, so I will continue to do so.


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## NancyJ

They also have an article on "leptomania" that I also think irresponsible and off the wall and claims vaccines don't even work. This is from another site but I think I first saw it there and this Dr Jordan is fequently cited on Dogs Naturally.

LEPTOMANIA - THE PROBLEM WITH LEPTOSPIROSIS VACCINE, by Patricia Jordan, DVM

I have not given the lepto shots and my decision is supported by another article that makes more sense to me...but it is a tough call. 

This vet (link below) actually is NOT against vaccines, even not against giving a lepto vaccine but has some info to consider. I know when I read the Pfizer study my jaw dropped at just how limited it was and you can't even see the Merial study. (I was going to do the shot this year but her dog had a reaction to the Merial vaccine which has no adjuvant)

Is One Vaccine Dose Size Right For All Dogs ?


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## my boy diesel

*realizing there is a risk no matter what you do.*

this exactly
nobody is going to live forever and neither are our pets
we do the best for them while we have them and we do the best for ourselves
but just because it is natural doesn't mean it is safe


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## Lauri & The Gang

I am on my 4th litter of UNVACCINATED Chinese Cresteds. They get nothing until they reach 1 yr of age and then only Rabies.

We run an all-breed lure coursing club on our property and can have upwards of 100 dogs on our property each weekend. I have no requirements for vaccinations for dogs coming here.

As long as the weather is ok, my Crested puppies are out in the same area as all those dogs. I believe in exposing them to things so they can build their own immunities - naturally.

But I also believe they need to have a natural diet to help support their immune system.

I have had Parvo here once. We had to get a kennel license when we moved here in order to make our 6 dogs legal. Now, every year the come and inspect our 'kennel' (the house) and check the dogs. I had 6 week old puppies at the time and I asked the inspector to come to my place BEFORE he went anywhere else. 6 days after he was here my puppies presented with Parvo. Turns out he went to another kennel first. 

Of the 4 puppies, one never got sick, 2 got sick but recovered within a couple days and the last puppy was very sick but recovered after about 7 days. I used Colloidal Silver enemas in addition to the Parvaid (which they ship next day) and sub-q fluids (given at home).

Having lost a dog to an immune system disorder brought on by over vaccinating I decided to my research and follow the plan I have going now. One of the puppies from my last litter was just placed in a home at 7 months of age. Her owners wanted to vaccinate her but instead I am paying for them to do titers on her to see where her immunities are and THEN decide if she needs anything.


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## my boy diesel

you do realize that many or most people use vaccines and can say their dogs have never been sick either?
do what works by all means but your way is not the only way 
my own dogs have had puppy vaccines and then yearly vaccines until protocols changed to every three years and none of them have been sick either


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## blackshep

Ok, but Lauri, someone exposed your pups to the virus, so they didn't have immunity, right? Not trying to argue, to each their own, but I'm saying, nobody knows where their pups are going to be exposed to a virus, which is why the vaccinations are so important. 

Just a general question for the population - how does anyone prove their dog's health problems are related to having been vaccinated? People seem to say, my dog was vaccinated and it ended up getting cancer. or some other condition it develops. What's to say it was from the vaccine? Is there a way to find out?


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## Heidigsd

my boy diesel said:


> i find it amusing that so many shun the so called big pharma in favor of natural treatments when natural treatments cost way more than conventional medications
> i looked up parvaid once and it is very expensive plus you have to wait for it to arrive when everyone knows every second counts when treating parvo
> 
> people will always buy dangerous ideas like this because they sound so convincing and they are already convinced vets are evil and cause disease just so they can have clients
> strange ideas at the very least


 Isn't that the truth...supplements bring in big dollars for these companies. And it's been shown that a lot of times you don't even get what you pay for with supplements


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## my boy diesel

blackshep said:


> Ok, but Lauri, someone exposed your pups to the virus, so they didn't have immunity, right? Not trying to argue, to each their own, but I'm saying, nobody knows where their pups are going to be exposed to a virus, which is why the vaccinations are so important.


i also could not help but notice that natural immunity must not be all that great if you rely on it and your non vaccinated pups get exposed and they then become ill

there's been instances of adult dogs that were never vaccinated that become ill with these deadly diseases

so relying on natural immunity through deliberately or even non deliberately exposing them to illnesses is no guarantee they will be immune

there is such a thing as herd immunity and people really need to understand how that works before making decisions about vaccines

as to parvaid arriving the next day 
even 24 hours without treatment can kill a puppy very quickly as you are then behind the 8 ball and e coli bacteria are flooding the bloodstream


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## N Smith

Lauri - I think that is amazing, and I love hearing someone having so much success with no vaccines. I am extremely limited protocol, my pups receive one vaccine before leaving the breeder and one at 16 weeks, just parvo and distemper. Then Rabies only as required for travel, there is no law here requiring it.

For me, what I was saying about the article, was I would not "Not" vaccinate my puppy then purposely bring the puppy to areas where I know dogs/critters with parvo run rampant, what an unneccesary risk. 

But I would continue to bring my dog to training classes, dog shows etc. I am sure that the puppy can still be exposed to parvo there, but I am not trying to find a sick dog and stick my puppy right next to it, or offer to puppy sit LOL


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## Heidigsd

After reading the article I wouldn't pay any attention to anything in this magazine. And when you read the comments it gets even scarier. Some of the ads are also interesting and explains how come it gets recommended on here 

Why anyone would not vaccinate their puppies/dogs and then expose them on purpose to parvo/distemper is beyond me. I had to deal with parvo when Nikki was just nine weeks old and I felt like someone was ripping my heart out when I found out she tested positive...don't wish this on anyone  Not sure how many people can afford $900 per day for max of ten days to try and save a puppy because that was the quote I was given.

Not vaccinating a puppy for these horrible diseases IMO is neglect.

*my boy diesel's* post says it all :thumbup: If everyone started to skip vaccines we would see many more dogs getting sick.


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## NancyJ

What is the take on those who are opposed to vaccinations on the recent outbreaks of measles? The same claim as has been made with polio and smallpox (that the disease just died out on its own?) So many who don't vaccinate benefit from herd immunity until there is a ***** in the armor. 

I had the measles as a child (no shots then but at least we had polio immunizations) and remember being very very sick. I also had the best of medical care at the time and a mother who hovered over me keeping me cool, making me wear sunglasses in the house, keeping down noise.......I know others who suffered brain damage from high fevers, vision issues, deafness, and a great uncle who even died from them. 

I really DO believe vaccines are risky business and veterinary pharmaceuticals, in particular, do not receive adequate oversight (though human pharmaceuticals are not lagging far these days) ... I also wonder about vaccinating for everything under the sun, but it has always been a risk/benefit situation.

I like the magazine. I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle, though. It is good to challenge the paradigms on which these decisions are made.


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## blackshep

I think limited vaccinations of core vaccines IS challenging the norms though, is it not, as opposed to vaccinating for everything under the sun, every year?

With the measles outbreak, people on the DN FB page were arguing with me when I brought it up that measles isn't such a big deal. I'm sorry, I think it is a big deal, it's a very serious illness. Then they compare it to chickenpox, which is much less severe, but yet, it almost killed my younger sister when she was 6 years old. She's immunosuppressed and my older sister brought it home. My younger sister had lesions on her liver, down her throat, it was awful.

I don't get the flu shot, I think there are too many strains for it to be of much use, but for life threatening viruses that have a one time, highly effective vaccine available, why would you not do it?

People talk about the long term effects of vaccine reactions, what about the long term effects of distemper, assuming you manage to keep your pup alive, that is. It seems reckless to encourage people to try this, I was actually quite upset about the article.


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## NancyJ

The measles was a big deal it's a killer and anybody who doesn't think that has no experience with them. Distemper parvo and rabies are also killers and not something I'm going to take a risk with. By the same token immunity is immunity. Sometimes a set of shots does not confer immunity and a titer is going to let you know if that actually happened. Edit..darn you autocorrect.


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## llombardo

I do as little vaccines as possible. I picked up a stray one time that ended up having parvo and I was more then relieved that none of my own dogs(3 of them at the time) got it and I felt guilty for subjecting them to that and relieved they had those shots. Midnite came from the shelter with kennel cough and all my dogs except the oldest senior dog got it . I still won't get them the bordatella shot.


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## Shade

blackshep said:


> I think limited vaccinations of core vaccines IS challenging the norms though, is it not, as opposed to vaccinating for everything under the sun, every year?


IMO There's a difference between doing one vaccination and then refusing to do another and just assuming it was sufficient, it's another to do the vaccination and then do the tither afterwards confirming immunity. Personally I'm doing the tither this year at Delgado's yearly checkup and that will dictate when (if ever) he needs to be vaccinated again.


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## carmspack

this is a very interesting little history of vaccines 

Timelines ? History of Vaccines


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## Blanketback

Where I work, everyone was sick this winter except for me. I'm the only one who hates hand sanitizers and would rather scrub my skin raw with hot water and soap, lol. Yes, dry flaking skin hurts - but not as much as actually being sick. This is why I vax my dog, because I'm actively trying to prevent serious illness. Thanks for posting that link, blackshep. I was also upset by the article.


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## blackshep

Shade said:


> IMO There's a difference between doing one vaccination and then refusing to do another and just assuming it was sufficient, it's another to do the vaccination and then do the tither afterwards confirming immunity. Personally I'm doing the tither this year at Delgado's yearly checkup and that will dictate when (if ever) he needs to be vaccinated again.


Exactly right 

Interesting timeline carmspack , thanks for sharing


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## Blanketback

I don't understand titers. When I spoke to my vet about it, he said that the titer reading isn't enough, and that the dog would have to actually be challenged by the virus in order to predict that the immunity is there, and sufficient to fight it off. Or something like that, but basically that titers weren't the whole story. Does anyone have any thoughts from that perspective? All I ever see is 'do titers instead' but why would my vet say otherwise? It's not a money issue with him, he was speaking about the actual science behind it.


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## NancyJ

Everything I have read (and that includes AAHA conference documentation) indicates titers are an adequate measure of immunization status. They are very reliable for parvo and distemper. For some other things with cross reactivity, not so much and that is, perhaps, his concern? Titers measure the amount of antibody to that antigen in the blood. Actually the thing about titers is you can have the antibodies go away over time and STILL have cellular immunity.

FWIW, when I went back to college to get my Masters Degree, they wanted me to get a measles shot because I never had one and did not have proof (the baby book did not 'count') I had the disease as a child. I got a titer done at the health department and they had no problem accepting that. When my daughter went to enroll recently, she got them to accept titers for Chickenpox in lieu of the vaccine .

Perhaps some folks who think the measles were not that bad do not realize there are the MEASLES and, then German Measles. German Measles is a mild disease unless you are pregnant and it causes devestating birth defect. MEASLES is a different and deadly disease. When I was a kid I heard it call the "hard" measles or the "red" measles.


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## Blanketback

To tell you the truth Nancy, I couldn't really follow along because he was using words unfamiliar to me, lol. He's such a great vet - I should be taking notes every time I see him! CDV scares me, and it's killing everything from ferrets to tigers.


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## blackshep

It's important too, to understand that any reading above 0 means the animal has immunity. A level of 8 is not better immunity than a 1. They have immunity or they don't. The problem with titers, is that a reading of 0 can mean no immunity, but it can also mean there are simply no antibodies circulating. That doesn't mean the animal doesn't have cell mediated immunity, but we can't measure cell mediated immunity.

Blanketback, you might like this video, it's an hour long, but it's excellent


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## K9POPPY

*Vaccinations*

My advice to those who decide to treat parvovirus- I knew a GSD owner who decided to do her own vaccinations- she touted the miracles of Parvaid until her dogs started dying one after another- then it was too late, when she ran to a vet with her problems, eventually losing 7 dogs. I am not going to take that kind of care with my canines- I'll stick with my vet's recommendations, I trust his protocol- IMHO:wub:


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## NancyJ

I do understand trusting the vet's protocol but most vets tend to do what the drug companies tell them and it is more profitable to sell vaccines every single year. My vet glowingly handed me the Pfizer document on their tests of the lepto vaccine. It was an unmitigated peice of garbage. There was no adequate challenge test out to the 1 year labeling statement, just a few months and not all the servovars at that.

The change to three years was made ONLY because of pressure by folks like Dr Schultz saying that not only is it not necessary, it can be problematic. Even the AAHA has finely agreed that these vaccinations are probably good for life. The man is on the faculty at a veterinary college and respected by his peers as an expert in the field.


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## K9POPPY

My vet could care less about drug companies- he is very comfortable with the 3 year protocol, and for that matter, is open to any discussions about vaccinating canines. We choose our decisions about pet care.


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## llombardo

My argument is that the three year and one year are so close in dosage that it doesn't make sense to do yearly and over do it. I have had more then one vet recommend three year shots. I stay away from the ones that don't offer it.


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## BobCl

Hopefully, this advice will only kill a few dogs.


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## my boy diesel

llombardo there are not two different vaccines, a 'one year' and a 'three year'
its the same vaccine you just space them differently
same with rabies it is all the same vaccine but you space it out three years after the dog is a year of age and had its one year booster 

*I believe in exposing them to things so they can build their own immunities - naturally.*
how in the world are you making sure what and how much they are exposed to? that really makes little sense at all
unless you do titers which do not tell a whole lot about how the dog or pup will respond to a virus or bacteria
you cant look at a blade of grass and say 'this has enough parvo on it to not make my dog real sick but just a little sick so it builds immunity'


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## Muskeg

Exposing dogs to raccoons is never a good idea. There is a really nasty round worm in raccoon poop that can be deadly for both humans and animals. Along with leptospirosis, which can wipe out a dog's liver and kidneys in a day... not to mention the usually deadly lepto and parvo. Here's more information on fun raccoon diseases. Diseases from raccoons

I follow my vet's recommendation and wait to vaccinate until 8 weeks for pups, then follow the Dodd protocol. I would never risk my pups' lives by not vaccinating. 

The only reason you can get away with no vaccinations is herd immunity and somehow never exposing pups to wild animals with the disease. I made my dogs' suffer through tick illness because I followed "natural" advice regarding tick repellant. My GSD still has some residual affects from this. I will never make a mistake like this again that is based on mere ideas by non-scientists who have no contagious disease experience and don't bother with actual research. Natural is not always better! 

My high school swim coach almost died from chicken pox- it put him in a coma. I made sure to get the chicken pox vaccine when I was a teenager (never had it). 

What worries me is there are people trying to do their best for their dogs who will follow this advice. Because it sound so legit. High time Drs. Dodds or Becker responded.


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## blackshep

my boy diesel said:


> same with rabies it is all the same vaccine but you space it out three years after the dog is a year of age and had its one year booster


 This is not true. It has to do with the adjuvant used and how it triggers the immune response, if you watch the interview I posted, he talks about it


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## my boy diesel

Should the Rabies Vaccine Be Given Every Two or Three Years?

*I asked Dr. Schultz if the 1 and 3-year rabies vaccine products are the same. His opinion is most of them are.*

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/rabies-vaccine-labeling/
*You might have noticed that rabies vaccines are labeled for either one year or three years. What is the difference between the two vaccines? The answer is that there is no difference. It is the exact same vaccine.

Veterinary immunologist Dr. Ronald Schultz states: “There is no benefit from annual rabies vaccination and most one year rabies products are similar or identical to the 3-year products with regard to duration of immunity and effectiveness. However, if they are 1 year rabies vaccines, they must be legally given annually! Rabies vaccine is the only canine vaccine requiring a minimum duration of immunity study. However, revaccination annually does not necessarily improve immunity. However, annual vaccination does significantly increase the risk for an adverse reaction in the dog.”*


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## blackshep

Too late to edit - I agree about how you can't regulate what/how much your dog is exposed to. And it doesn't have to do with how much of the virus the dog is exposed to, it will either make them sick or it won't.

Considering the efficacy of the parvo and distemper vaccines, and the mortality rate of the clinical disease and long term health effects (distemper in particular, is terrible), the risk of side effects of the vaccines are warranted IMO. Especially when you consider most dogs will have lifelong immunity.


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## blackshep

In his interview he contradicts that??


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## my boy diesel

i cant watch it for an hour
can you give me the time when he says it?

i am a bit curious i admit because they really are the same vaccine from everything else i read and understand
the only difference is the laws where one lives

they mentioned a_ cat _vaccine 1 vs 3 yr is different but not sure on that either now!


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## blackshep

It's at about the 42 minute mark. I stand corrected, he did say they are all mainly the same, but that there are some that may have more adjuvant, so there are some differences. I guess we're both kind of right. I have a selective memory lol


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## blackshep

my boy diesel said:


> they mentioned a_ cat _vaccine 1 vs 3 yr is different but not sure on that either now!


I believe (I could be wrong) that the cat vaccine, the 1 year is adjuvant free. He says (I think it's toward the end of the vid) that he'd rather give a yearly adjuvant free rabies vaccine to the cat, over the 3 year rabies with adjuvant, since the adjuvant is what is causing the injection site sarcomas.

There's a version of that vid done in 15 minute segments. You should watch it if you can Dr Schultz is so good at explaining how it all works and made me feel much more comfortable about tittering over yearly vaccines


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## my boy diesel

yeah as i understand dog vaccines anyway they dont reach for a 3 yr vs 1 yr vaccine
they ask when the last vaccine was and if a year ago then it is not due again for 3 yrs
and again that depends on where people live because some places have not gone to 3 yr spacing yet

*There's a version of that vid done in 15 minute segments. You should watch it if you can Dr Schultz is so good at explaining how it all works and made me feel much more comfortable about tittering over yearly vaccines *
i will try to get that watched then!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

blackshep said:


> I believe (I could be wrong) that the cat vaccine, the 1 year is adjuvant free. He says (I think it's toward the end of the vid) that he'd rather give a yearly adjuvant free rabies vaccine to the cat, over the 3 year rabies with adjuvant, since the adjuvant is what is causing the injection site sarcomas.
> 
> There's a version of that vid done in 15 minute segments. You should watch it if you can Dr Schultz is so good at explaining how it all works and made me feel much more comfortable about tittering over yearly vaccines


Cats and dogs are *very* different in how they respond to vaccines, so people often do the 1 year rabies with cats - Purevax.


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## NancyJ

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Cats and dogs are *very* different in how they respond to vaccines, so people often do the 1 year rabies with cats - Purevax.


Yes, the adjuvant seems to be responsible for injection site sarcomas in cats which is also why they do it on the leg now and not the shoulder or back. Good reminder.....need to make sure the vet uses the adjuvant free rabies shot BEFORE I take our cat in for her Rabies booster.

It was not lost on me that Grim (who had been immunized out the yin-yang with adjuvanated vaccines before I got him at 2.5) developed his hemangiosarcoma of the muscle over the shoulder.......but there is no adjuvant free rabies shot for dogs. The MLV viruses like Distemper and Parvo, no........and there is one lepto vaccine without adjuvant but, surprise surprise...hearing of even large dogs getting reactions on THAT one now.


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## lauren43

blackshep said:


> Ok, but Lauri, someone exposed your pups to the virus, so they didn't have immunity, right? Not trying to argue, to each their own, but I'm saying, nobody knows where their pups are going to be exposed to a virus, which is why the vaccinations are so important.
> 
> Just a general question for the population - how does anyone prove their dog's health problems are related to having been vaccinated? People seem to say, my dog was vaccinated and it ended up getting cancer. or some other condition it develops. What's to say it was from the vaccine? Is there a way to find out?




The only issue is, is that vaccinating doesn't mean these pups would have escaped the infection. I know a vet tech in the CA area and she is currently dealing with at least 3-5 positive parvovirus pups, all of which had at least 1 immunization...and not all of them survived. 

It's a terrible virus. And I know there are no guarantees in life, but I'm not sure I'll be vaccinating against things like Parvovirus, Lepto, and Bordetella...the other vaccinations are a little less clear to me and I'll make those decisions as I go.





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## blackshep

There are VERY rare instances where the dogs are non-responders to the vaccine (but the non-responders to the parvo vaccine respond beautifully to distemper and vice versa). Doesn't warrant not doing it IMO. Also only having one shot may mean the mothers maternal antibodies were stil in the pups system and blocked the effectiveness of the vaccine, that's why you do a series of puppy shots.

According to Dr Schultz, the vaccine is extremely effective and often provides lifelong immunity, so it doesn't make any sense to take the risk of exposing your pup to the virus, to me. It's a horrible disease for your pup to go through. My coworker didn't vaccinate her pup and it died a horrible, painful death from Parvo, she was devastated.


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