# NB Ven. & SP for pups?



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Hello!
Well, Denali was on Eukanuba at the breeders. We decided to switch her to a higher quality food-Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato. Anyway, she went to the vets today for her first check up. The vet mentioned that Denali needed to be on puppy food such as Eukanuba, Iams, or even Purina puppy chow. All of these are low quality foods IMO.







On the bag i'm pretty sure it says "For puppies and adults" but it doesn't have those hundreds of ingredients that the puppy foods claim are beneficial to them. (They might be but i'm skeptical)

Then he said something that really threw me... He said they switch dogs to Natural Balance when dogs develop something such as an ear infection. I don't know... but that sounds kind of backwards.







Shouldn't the dogs be on higher quality foods to prevent these problems? Or am I doing it wrong?
She seems like a healthy, hyper puppy and she consistently has firm poops.

Denali is 9 weeks and 5 days old and she weighs 13.7lbs. Is this normal? Should she weigh more than that? I was told that at 3 months they should be 27lbs. or so. Basically, in 3 weeks she has to double her weight .


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You're right on in your thinking. The vet unfortunately, like most vets out there, is a bit lacking in his knowlege of canine nutrition.

Pups don't need puppy food, and you're right that feeding a better diet is going to go a long way to prevent problems like ear infections. If the dogs who are put on better foods because they have things like ear infections were on the better foods from the start, instead of low quality foods that contain a high number of common allergens, they probably wouldn't have had the problem in the first place.

As for her size, different puppies grow at vastly different rates. She doesn't have to be 27lbs at 3 months, or any specific weight at a certain age. Those numbers are just averages and while some pups fall around those averages, many don't. Nothing to worry about if they don't. So long as she is at an appropriate weight for her size (not too thin or too chunky) and is otherwise healthy, there are no worries.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I find most vets don't have a clue. 9 wks 13lbs is a little on the small size. Mine are normally 13-16lbs by 8 wks so she sounds a few lbs shy.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

They do often use the NB for dogs with allergies because of the (for most dogs) unique protiens like Venison

Personally this would not be my first choice for a puppy that is not having any GI tract or allergy issues.

Here are the ingredients:
Sweet Potatoes, Venison, Potato Protein, Venison Meal, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.


Note that this food is really Sweet Potato & Venison not Venison and Sweet Potato

Sweet Potatoes, Venison, Potato Protein, Venison Meal

I prefer more meat protein

For instance:
Acana Adult
Chicken meal, steamed oats, fresh free-run chicken, peas

Notice the meat meal comes first then a carb then more meat then....are peas a carb?









Anyway, just my .02


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

im with barb on that. unless there are specific issues/allergies, i wouldnt feed something where sweet potato is the primary ingredient.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I think you're right. I'm going to switch her to a higher meat protein version of Natural Balance (I like the brand).
No way I'm downgrading though, the vet made me doubt myself and my research, lol.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

Maybe try the NB AMP formula. That would be higher protein and fat.
http://naturalbalance.net/dogformulas/AMPDog.html

My vet tried to tell me the NB was a low-quality food with fillers, etc. When I questioned him on it, he thought I was talking about Beneful!
How you get the two mixed up, I'm not sure


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

What's your opinion on Taste of the Wild? My bf is stuck on switching to this brand of food. Here are the ingredients:
Protein: 32% Fat: 18%
Calories: 3,719 kcal/kg (370 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy

Ingredients
Bison, venison, lamb meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, roasted bison, roasted venison, natural flavor, tomato pomace, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

I heard that when you go over 30% protein it's usually too much. I'm not sure if this is accurate or not. He also wants to try Orijen.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

some feel the Calcium in TOTW is a bit high for a gsd pup (around 2%). some people use it for pups, but personally id wait til he was over a year old.

the orijen large breed puppy is a nice food, and at first appearances is more expensive than the TOTW. however, my experience with TOTW when i tried it with one of my dogs is i was feeding 30%-40% more than i had to with orijen.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

I have been feeding TOTW Prairie or Wetlands recently ( I got mad that NB went up AGAIN on price). My guys really, really like it. No probs so far. Although I bought one bag of the Salmon and they had the runs.
Have no experience feeding TOTW to pups, but since the calcium/phosphorous ration is just as --or more-- important than protein levels, I am planning to feed it to my pups as well.

From TOTW's website.....
Can I feed this food to my large breed puppy?
Yes. All of the Taste of the Wild formulas meet the nutritional needs for growing puppies. Large breed puppies should be fed a little differently than small or medium breed puppies in order to control their growth rate. Overfeeding calories can lead to rapid growth, which puts stress on the developing bones and joints. It is important to keep your large breed puppy in lean body condition - ask your vet how to determine whether your puppy is lean or too heavy. You may have to adjust the feeding amount up or down from what is indicated on the package, the package just provides an estimate of the amount to feed and every puppy is a bit different.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I've fed to litters and to older dogs. Grace and her brother gator were on it since 8 wks. I sold Gator at 10 months? hip xrays looked great, Grace ofa'd good.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*



> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I have been feeding TOTW Prairie or Bison recently ( I got mad that NB went up AGAIN on price). My guys really, really like it. No probs so far. Although I bought one bag of the Salmon and they had the runs.
> Have no experience feeding TOTW to pups, but since the calcium/phosphorous ration is just as --or more-- important than protein levels, I am planning to feed it to my pups as well.


the calcium to phosphorous ratio is important and most kibbles are where they should be in that regard. the overall calcium level is important with large breed pups and for some of us, 2% is too high. it depends on ones comfort level. a more common recommendation for large breed pups is 1%-1.5% calcium. Wellness, for example, warns against feeding their grain free Core line to growing pups because it is at about 2% calcium, which is the same level as the TOTW line.

i also have no concern about higher protein levels, but have no comfort level with higher calcium levels found in most grain free kibbles. some people feed TOTW to their pups and have had no problems. i choose to avoid any risk where i can. 

this is my opinion, but i feel Welness took a more responsible approach than Diamond (TOTW) on this issue: (this is their response to the issue)

_ I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why? 

Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.3 – 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age. _


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Here are calcium and phosphorous rations I found on another site....
High prairie--calcium 2.1 phos 1.4 

Pacific stream--calcium 1.9 phos 1.1 

wetlands--calcium 2.1 phos 1.4


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

I have done the math (I think its right but please double check







)
If ideal calcium phosphorus ratios are 1.2:1
then Prairie is 1.2:8
Pacific: 1.2:.67
and Wetlands is 1.2:8

Most of the data I just waded through showed no proven benefit to feeding a large-breed puppy food.

So I am still not sure if TOTW would be good.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*



> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I have done the math (I think its right but please double check
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dr Pitcairn, who is well renowned regarding nutrition, recommends calcium/phosphorous levels anywhere from 1.4:1 up to 2:1, though ive also seen a 1.2:1 ratio recommended. the three TOTW varieties have ratios of 1.5:1, 1.72:1, and 1.5:1

the ratios in TOTW look fine, but not the overall calcium level, imo. the only real benefit i see for using a large breed puppy food is that they seek to limit the overall calcium levels and sometimes try to limit the caloric content in comparison to their adult offerings. i think limiting caloric content is easily done by the owner controlling feeding portions.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I think to play it safe, (since her parents weren't OFA certified) we're going to go with Orijen Large Breed Puppy. Better to play on the safe side and have lower Calcium. We'll see how that works for her. 
I'm not sure if it's normal for a pup but she sheds quite a bit and is itchy so I don't think NB is good for her. 
We also hope to get her to fatten up a little.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Thanks Derek, it is much easier to read, and make sense of, when the values are not backwards


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Well, I'm switching her over to Orijen. So far, her poop is formed but sometimes it ends as cow pie. Hmm maybe too sudden. 

She already looks like she's put on a pound or so though, so as long as her poops get a little better i'll stay on the food.

She also seems to loooove Orijen. We can even use the kibble as treats! She inhales the entire meal, then gets hiccups! Silly puppy. 
There's actually a visible difference in the quality of the kibble, very cool









Her next weigh in is on Jun. 15th, I hope she puts on a few pounds by then. I'm so excited about watching her grow up! I'm sure i'll miss the puppy days but I so want to see her as an adult already!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

as long as she is eating and has no serious health issues she will grow, and genetics will take her to whatever size she is meant to be. just dont get caught up in the numbers, as ive seen some people try to feed their dog to get to a certain weight by a certain time frame.

my experience has been poop that starts out formed but ends up in cowpie, or that is formed at one part of the day and cowpie another part of the day, could just be a matter of everfeeding (even by the samllest of margins).


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*



> Originally Posted By: roxy84
> 
> my experience has been poop that starts out formed but ends up in cowpie, or that is formed at one part of the day and cowpie another part of the day, could just be a matter of everfeeding (even by the samllest of margins).


Do you mean overfeeding the new food? Or just overfeeding in general?
Right now we feed her 3/4 cup 3 times a day = 2.5 cups a day. I hear that sometimes you actually need to feed less of Orijen than other foods, for example Pedigree.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: NB Ven. & SP for pups?*

i meant overfeeding in general. 2 1/2 c a day isnt really very much, though. maybe it is due to the transition. hard to say til she is switched over completely to the new food for a while.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I believe it's day 4 and she is doing a lot better on Orijen. Her poops have firmed up nicely.
Although she is very itchy... but she was itchy since the day we got her. She was on Eukanuba and was itchy, but probably due to the fleas she came with. Itchy on NB (with Limited Ingredients) too and still itchy on Orijen. 
I'm pretty sure I got rid of all her fleas though, so now I have to figure out why she's itchy!


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