# Booked 'THE' Appointment



## VickyNero (Nov 8, 2017)

Nero is now 19 months and I have just booked his check up ahead of his castration.
I do feel a little guilty to out him through it.
He has never had a problem with going to the Vets but has never been sedated before.

What is everyone's tips for aftercare and making the process as easy and stress free as possible.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

What is your reason for neutering him? Just curious. Many of us here have intact males that we choose to never neuter and will never breed. Unless, of course, there is a medical necessity for such surgery, we don't see the need.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If there is no medical necessity, why risk anesthesia?


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Only advice I can give is treat it as much of a non-event as possible. Any apprehension you have can be felt by your boy. Everything else is up to the vet and their techs.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

car2ner said:


> Everything else is up to the vet and their techs.


I beg to differ and think it is up to you unless there is a medical reason. Neutering does not change behavior; training does. If there is no medical reason for it and your dog is not roaming the neighborhood, I'd cancel the appointment for his health.
Some of the reasons they will give to neuter is that it prevents prostate cancer. That would be like amputating his leg so he won't be able to break it.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I beg to differ and think it is up to you unless there is a medical reason. Neutering does not change behavior; training does. If there is no medical reason for it and your dog is not roaming the neighborhood, I'd cancel the appointment for his health.
> Some of the reasons they will give to neuter is that it prevents prostate cancer. That would be like amputating his leg so he won't be able to break it.


Definitely agree with this. If you have control over your dog and there's no risk of a mistake or unwanted breeding, I don't recommend neutering. Particularly before 2 years. If you do want to neuter, for whatever reason, at least wait until the dog is 2 years old. Right now, at 19 months, the dog is still growing and he needs those hormones.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I beg to differ and think it is up to you unless there is a medical reason. Neutering does not change behavior; training does. If there is no medical reason for it and your dog is not roaming the neighborhood, I'd cancel the appointment for his health.
> Some of the reasons they will give to neuter is that it prevents prostate cancer. That would be like amputating his leg so he won't be able to break it.


I think Car2ner was referring to the actual procedure... not the merits of neutering vs staying intact


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> I think Car2ner was referring to the actual procedure... not the merits of neutering vs staying intact


Quite possible but many dog owners follow the vets' and techs' "advice" blindly.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Definitely agree with this. If you have control over your dog and there's no risk of a mistake or unwanted breeding, I don't recommend neutering. Particularly before 2 years. If you do want to neuter, for whatever reason, at least wait until the dog is 2 years old. Right now, at 19 months, the dog is still growing and he needs those hormones.


Depends on if the growth plates are closed or not. There is nothing magical about a dog's 2nd birthday. 

I've known someone who had x rays done and confirmed closed growth plates in large breeds as early as 16 months. Plenty more who did the same at around 18-19 months. 
.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Depends on if the growth plates are closed or not. There is nothing magical about a dog's 2nd birthday.
> 
> I've known someone who had x rays done and confirmed closed growth plates in large breeds as early as 16 months. Plenty more who did the same at around 18-19 months.
> .


For sure, but x-rays are expensive and if you're only doing them to confirm growth plates for neutering, I'd just as soon say forego the x-rays and just wait until the dog is 2.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

@VickyNero

You may want to introduce the cone to your dog now, that way he adjusts and gets used to it BEFORE you need it. That would be less stressful on him if you happen to need it then to introduce it to him while he recovers

Find out what type of stitches the vet will be using, allergic reaction to the disolvable kind are not uncommon. Not so common that I would insist on using the standard kind, but common enough I would make sure I had benedryl on hand and discuss dosing if needed with the vet. 

Don't worry too much if he is off food after the surgery - that's common - but do encourage hydration. I usually offer non salted broths as baited water. Hydration is very important for tissue healing. 

And make sure to buy that guy a special toy or some treats


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I would imagine that if the magic age is 24 months, it's because on average, growth plates in a certain high percentage of dogs have closed at 24 months. That's an average, and individual dogs can differ.

That being said, I don't really understand why we're anti-alteration, or anti-alteration before ___ age. Yes, it's a surgery, and no surgery is without risks. It's also a routine surgery that many dogs go through at varying ages and come out just fine. The choice of if or when to alter should lie with the family who lives with the dog, the breeder if there is a contract involved, and the family's vet. That's it. Period. It depends on a multitude of factors beyond just what the research says. Maybe it's a hardship to keep an intact dog responsibly contained, or maybe there are ordinances (as was the case for me) that put your bitch under house arrest during her season. Different things are going to work for different dogs and their owners, and the reasons are going to vary.

There's also the angle of respecting others' right to make their own choices. I don't want to alter my next bitch before she's 2, and I know a crap ton of people who will flagellate me for it. But it's my choice, and I expect them to shut up and respect it. If I want that respect afforded me, I need to be supportive of those who choose to do it earlier.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I'm not anti-altering, and definitely agree that if there is a contract involved or if it's in the best interest for the family or the dog, then it should be done. That said, I do think that in today's society there is a certain expectation that you alter your dog because that's was responsible owners do, and if you don't then you're suddenly irresponsible or shunned by society. I always try to recommend waiting or taking a second look at the decision because I think it's important to stop, take a breath and not just alter your dog because that's what "you're supposed to do." 

If the research has been done and it's still what the owner wants to do, then do it, I won't say it's a bad decision. Every situation is different. My 9 year old was spayed at 6 years for health reasons. I'd like to keep all my dogs intact, but things happen and reasons occur. However, I definitely still recommend waiting until 2 years unless there's a reason why it has to happen now. I've seen too much research showing the ramifications of alerting too early to not speak up about it.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I neutered Russ when he turned 3. He was driving me out of my mind. I had/have intact females, and he was making life miserable for all of us. So off he went to get snipped. Haven’t regretted it. That was 2 years ago. He healed quickly, especially with the Vetericyn spray. Didn’t need a cone either.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> However, I definitely still recommend waiting until 2 years unless there's a reason why it has to happen now. I've seen too much research showing the ramifications of alerting too early to not speak up about it.


Could you please share links to the research you've seen that demonstrates a significant difference in health of neutering at 19 months vs 24 months? 

The OP isn't considering a juvenile neuter here. The OP's dog is 19 months not 6. Incredibly high likelihood the skeletal development is finished at this point. _The OP is doing a pre-castration health check with their vet._ Clearly the OP and their vet are educated on the effects of castrating large breeds at younger ages otherwise they wouldn't have waited this long and put up with testosterone driven teenage nonsense. 

If the OP chooses to neuter I don't see much benefit in giving the dog another 5 months of hormones at this stage in his development. At this point of growth he will be putting on muscle mass and filling out. Anything he puts on will be lost as he won't have the testosterone to maintain anyways.

If timing is right for their family and the vet gives the OK at the check out. There is no reason to wait a few more months.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Could you please share links to the research you've seen that demonstrates a significant difference in health of neutering at 19 months vs 24 months?
> 
> The OP isn't considering a juvenile neuter here. The OP's dog is 19 months not 6. Incredibly high likelihood the skeletal development is finished at this point. _The OP is doing a pre-castration health check with their vet._ Clearly the OP and their vet are educated on the effects of castrating large breeds at younger ages otherwise they wouldn't have waited this long and put up with testosterone driven teenage nonsense.
> 
> ...



Slow your roll. Did you not see my below comment responding to your comment on this subject?

If there is proof that the growth plates are closed, then go for it! I and many other people in the field recommend 2 years if you are not going to get x-rays and check the growth plates. Average age for closed growth plates is 2 years, some close before and some close after. If you're getting x-rays and can see that the plates are closed before 2 years, then you're good to go. If you're not getting x-rays and can't see if they're closed, wait until 2 years.

At 19 months, you need x-rays to see if they have closed all the way, so a pre-check that doesn't include x-rays isn't going to help much. 

Looks like we both agree on the topic of waiting until the growth plates are closed. I'm just saying to be sure about it, and if you're not sure, then wait until the average age of closing.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I've read several studies which say neutering young increases the risk of hemangiosarcoma. Is that worth it to you? Why change nature... let the dog stay in tact if you can manage him well. I'm curious for those who have neuter contracts how do the breeders enforce it happens?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Slow your roll. Did you not see my below comment responding to your comment on this subject?
> 
> If there is proof that the growth plates are closed, then go for it! I and many other people in the field recommend 2 years if you are not going to get x-rays and check the growth plates. Average age for closed growth plates is 2 years, some close before and some close after. If you're getting x-rays and can see that the plates are closed before 2 years, then you're good to go. If you're not getting x-rays and can't see if they're closed, wait until 2 years.
> 
> ...



Check your facts.










VetFolio

I could see waiting until 2 for a giant breed - dane, saints, etc

But 19 months is a fine age for most GSDs.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I've read several studies which say neutering young increases the risk of hemangiosarcoma. Is that worth it to you? Why change nature... let the dog stay in tact if you can manage him well. I'm curious for those who have neuter contracts how do the breeders enforce it happens?


My contract with the breeder required me NOT to spay her until she was minimum 14 months of age or I'd void my health guarantee.

But either way, timing of spay/neuter should involve the family, the breeder if applicable, and the vet. Not everyone is capable of managing an intact dog. Think of a typical busy young family with multiple kids under let's say age 10 or 12, and possibly multiple dogs. The probability for an accident shoots way up relative to, say, a pair of DINKs (like myself and my husband with one dog).


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Check your facts.



Oh my goodness. Okay, I hold a degree in animal biology and have spent years studying large canine anatomy and surgical reconstruction (I'm a trained wolf biologist and worked at the IWC and also worked alongside zoo veterinarians.)

2 years is an average. I'm not trying to be wholly and utterly precise. Research and data is different depending on your source and a few months is within the margin of error, which is why x-rays would be recommended at 19 months by any vet who knew and followed the research. 2 years is an average and good estimate and is often cited by people in the field in order to be safe.

Again, if you've had the x-rays and all is well, then go for it. I don't really understand what we're debating here.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Did you say certified wolf biologist? That's cool! What does it take to earn a certification in wolf biology? As you know, I grew up not terribly far from the IWC. I always thought wolves were so cool when I was a kid.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Oh my goodness. Okay, I hold a degree in animal biology and have spent years studying large canine anatomy and surgical reconstruction (I'm a certified wolf biologist and worked at the IWC and also worked alongside zoo veternarians.)
> 
> 2 years is an average. I'm not trying to be wholly and utterly precise. Research and data is different depending on your source. 2 years is an average and good estimate and is often cited by people in the field in order to be safe.


Certified wolf biologist - Is that a new program by TWS? 

Seriously curious if you could provide peer reviewed and cited research, or any veterinary text books that cite 24 months of age as to when the growth plates close... Most of the studies and medical resources I have read in regards to domestic dogs indicate closed growth plates at a younger age. If there is new research on this I have missed, I would like to be informed.

There are other reasons I would choose to keep a dog intact past growth plate closure but now you have me curious.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Did you say certified wolf biologist? That's cool! What does it take to earn a certification in wolf biology? As you know, I grew up not terribly far from the IWC. I always thought wolves were so cool when I was a kid.


LOL! I literally just changed it to "trained," because there isn't really any formal certification process. It's more field study and getting your hands dirty. I usually say certified or trained in order to add merit to the fact that I actually worked in the field and didn't just take some science classes. I hold Zoology and Animal Biology degrees specializing in large carnivores, anatomy and chordate morphology. Wolf biology, though, is really something you specialize in through work. I was at the IWC when Nyssa, Grizzer and Maya came on board and also worked with Shadow and Malik. My 9 year old GSD is actually named after MacKenzie, because she died right before I got my Mac and she was my favorite.

Most of my hands on work was through tracking and field work with an organization that spanned northern MN and ND and partnered with the DNR regarding cattle preservation. I also worked at the Wahpeton zoo for a bit. I've since changed careers, so don't refer to the work too much since it's been many years, but I loved it and miss it.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

kimbale said:


> LOL! I literally just changed it to "trained," because there isn't really any formal certification process. It's more field study and getting your hands dirty. I usually say certified or trained in order to add merit to the fact that I actually worked in the field and didn't just take some science classes. I hold Zoology and Animal Biology degrees specializing in large carnivores, anatomy and chordate morphology. Wolf biology, though, is really something you specialize in through work. I was at the IWC when Nyssa, Grizzer and Maya came on board and also worked with Shadow and Malik. My 9 year old GSD is actually named after MacKenzie, because she died right before I got my Mac and she was my favorite.
> 
> Most of my hands on work was through tracking and field work with an organization that spanned northern MN and ND and partnered with the DNR regarding cattle preservation. I also worked at the Wahpeton zoo for a bit. I've since changed careers, so don't refer to the work too much since it's been many years, but I loved it and miss it.


Thanks for elaborating. So it sounds like you have field experience in wolf biology. That's really cool you were able to work at the IWC. Is that a career you see yourself going back to someday? (And I'll stop hijacking now.)


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Certified wolf biologist - Is that a new program by TWS?
> 
> Seriously curious if you could provide peer reviewed and cited research, or any veterinary text books that cite 24 months of age as to when the growth plates close... Most of the studies and medical resources I have read in regards to domestic dogs indicate closed growth plates at a younger age. If there is new research on this I have missed, I would like to be informed.
> 
> There are other reasons I would choose to keep a dog intact past growth plate closure but now you have me curious.


Regarding studies, I don't have any at my finger tips on growth plates and never claimed I did. What I do have is experience garnered from work I did alongside veterinarians. Medical science is not exact, and we are literally arguing numbers within the margin of error here. I've seen growth plates close on large breed dogs at 9 months, and I've seen them close at 26 months. Again, the 2 year recommendation is there to be a safety net because by then, hopefully everything has closed and you're good to go.

My whole point in everything I have said is wait until the growth plates have closed before you fix your dog. Those are the studies I've read and referred to. 

If you can confirm they've closed via x-ray, great. If not, what's the big rush to neuter at 19 months as opposed to 24? Why not wait and give it some time just to be sure?

Again, we are literally debating over a number of months, which is ridiculous. I have my years of work and what I was told by specialists who performed surgery on large canines every week (unlike most vets who work on small and large breed dogs of many different breeds and mixes). There isn't specific research out there on every specific topic and question, and sometimes you just go with experience and the tried and true advice that's worked, and that's what I do.

At the end of the day, the reason behind the advice you're giving and I am giving gets at the same thing, wait until the growth plates close. I'd also argue that even after the plates close, you may still want to keep the dog intact until they're done filling out. I'd like to see research that says those hormones aren't needed for that process, which is another reason why I say at least wait until 2 years. 

@WateryTart, probably not. I live in Texas now, and opportunities in that field just aren't nearly as plentiful. If anything, I'd actually like to start my own GSD kennel in several years and go that route.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

kimbale said:


> @WateryTart, probably not. I live in Texas now, and opportunities in that field just aren't nearly as plentiful. If anything, I'd actually like to start my own GSD kennel in several years and go that route.


Yeah i guess that's true, you'd have to move back to this area of the country, and if you've put down roots in Texas, it makes sense to stay. 

For your kennel, would you be in WGSLs?


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Yeah i guess that's true, you'd have to move back to this area of the country, and if you've put down roots in Texas, it makes sense to stay.
> 
> For your kennel, would you be in WGSLs?


Definitely, they are my passion, but true working WGSL dogs. I'd like to build up a bloodline of solid tracking and detection dogs and also focus in on breeding a WGSL dog with high drive and nerve. There is a lot that I like about WGSLs, but there's definitely room for improvement.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> My contract with the breeder required me NOT to spay her until she was minimum 14 months of age or I'd void my health guarantee.
> 
> But either way, timing of spay/neuter should involve the family, the breeder if applicable, and the vet. Not everyone is capable of managing an intact dog. Think of a typical busy young family with multiple kids under let's say age 10 or 12, and possibly multiple dogs. The probability for an accident shoots way up relative to, say, a pair of DINKs (like myself and my husband with one dog).


That is why I said *those who can manage them.*


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm anti-alter. 

It increases the risk of hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, AND prostate cancer. 

That we know of. 

Anesthesia problems can cause seizures and death, maybe other stuff. 

Hormones are part of the package, and are for more than reproduction. Lack of same can make and earlier onset of aging, and decrease longevity.

Most of the issues of keeping an intact dog are behaviors that are easily trained -- training or containment problems. A dog need not have testicles to get himself run over in the road or shot by a hunter or farmer. 

Ah well, yep it is up to the owner whether to alter their pet or not.


----------



## VickyNero (Nov 8, 2017)

Thank you everyone for their comments I have found it very interesting to learn so much.

I do understand there is a lot for an against to snip or not to snip and I think its great there is a lot more knowledge now.
I would also love to keep every dog entire and I agree to do it for the reason of just not wanting to breed is unnecessary. 

There are a few reasons we have decided to get Nero done, but the main reason is because Nero has a fascination with all dog, male or female, aggressive or submissive.
He has been in training for over a year, he has improved and calmed a little but as soon as he sees another dog no matter how far away nothing else matters to him.

My trainer is amazing and she does not take any op or medication or treatment by the vet lightly.
I trust her opinion a lot and she has even suggested to me that now might the time to see if it improves this problem.

I am very aware this might not make any change but I do believe this is the right thing for him.

However the waiting till he is 24 months is very interesting.
I understand that growth plates have a better chance of being closed but will 4 months make that much of a difference?
What are the other benefits of waiting till 24 months.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

VickyNero said:


> Thank you everyone for their comments I have found it very interesting to learn so much.
> 
> I do understand there is a lot for an against to snip or not to snip and I think its great there is a lot more knowledge now.
> I would also love to keep every dog entire and I agree to do it for the reason of just not wanting to breed is unnecessary.
> ...


I tried not to really get involved in this conversation as I am very much pro keeping a dog intact, especially males, and did not want to turn this into an intact vs neuter debate but I really feel compelled to respond to this. 

I have owned many dogs in my life, mostly males, all intact except for one that was neutered at a much later stage in life due to medical necessity. You don't know what you are missing, and never will, if you neuter your dog now.

I am appalled and disappointed that your veterinarian and especially your trainer did not advise what so many others have found by keeping their male dogs intact. Depending on the dog, a sense of calm confidence can develop with maturity in dogs. If you neuter your dog, and deprive him of the hormones he needs to mentally mature, and then deprive the both of you the opportunity to work with and train_ that_ dog vs the puppy you have been working with, you may be permanently depriving yourself of the pleasure of owning the dog you wanted and thought you had gotten.

There could be many scenarios going on here with your dog's interest in other dogs. You have not made things clear. Is he being overly interested as in wanting to be meet and greet? That is a training problem. Is he dog truly dog aggressive? That can't be fixed and will be an issue of proper training, management and control forever, intact or not. Is he dog fear reactive? Dominance reactive? Those are both training issues. 

If this were my dog, I would either research the many threads on here on whether to neuter or not, or else I would start a new thread specific to your concerns and your dog and get some input. A host of behavioral problems can go hand in hand with neutering at any age and the latest studies have shown an _increase_ in dog aggression.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> VickyNero said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you everyone for their comments I have found it very interesting to learn so much.
> ...


I'm curious since you have had so much experience with this more on what the difference is mentally on a neutered vs intact dog? What do you mean by calm confidence? My last two shepherds were neutered before 2 years and I do feel they matured mentally and turned out to be very stable calm dogs... What exactly did I miss out on? I'm keeping this boy in tact for health reasons. What can I expect to see differently? Right now at about a year old he acts no different than a neutered dog to me, he keeps his wits about him and I've never seen him hump another dog or shown any aggression. He is confident like my last two dogs and spunky.


----------



## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

My vet doesn't even bring up neutering and I never will never do it for a non medical reason.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I suppose I got this ball rolling, but I was mainly curious about the reasons for neutering this dog. I think it is entirely up to the owner, but I'm generally opposed to that surgery.

Until my current dog, I was willingly drinking the cool-aid being served about early neutering and spaying. I've learned so much since that time and will never neuter a dog again, not without a pretty convincing medical reason to do so.

Behavior problems are not sufficient reason for me, and I don't think that the surgery would have much affect on a dog's behavior.

This dog is still a puppy and behaviors may change as the dog matures. For me, it would be wrong to assume that however the pup behaves now, the adult will also. So much of that depends on training, and thinking the dog won't change is not a fair assumption as far as I'm concerned. 

I'm surprised you are getting such advice from your vet and trainer. Is your trainer well experienced with German Shepherds? I certainly wouldn't want to do this surgery just to see if it makes any difference. Not a valid reason to me.

At the very least, I would delay the surgery until the dog actually matures, as late as 3 or even longer for some dogs. But there is always a risk, and there was a recent thread here about dogs dying after that surgery. I was very surprised that there were several people here who had experienced that horror. I would have thought it was very rare. 

Our young dog is now over 4 and has never even lifted his leg, much less marked anything. Nor has he gotten aggressive with another dog. Maybe it's just his personality and we were lucky with him. 

After experiencing this younger dog, I daily regret having our older dog neutered. He's a wonderful and very sweet dog, but I wish I knew then what I know now. It's a constant struggle to keep his weight under control and I fear for his well being. At 8 years old, I'm starting to worry about his hips with little things I see in him now. Unfortunately, there is no taking that surgery back.

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## VickyNero (Nov 8, 2017)

I never wanted this turn into a debate as to pro or anti neutering which is why I didn't ask that, simply after op care and advise.

No one should assume that I am doing this without plenty of research and advice.
My trainer is the best I know of all the trainers I have known her knowledge and experience is next to non.

Its seems people 'opinions' come into play here more than hard facts and if you had read my posts properly I have never said anything about what my Vet has told me and also that Nero loves other dogs and isn't aggressive with anyone and what you have to understand I am in the UK and opinions on this topic are very different for our vets, most will suggest neutering as young as 6 months and vaccinate every year which I disagree with.

Every dog is different and every owner is different, I believe even after owning 100 German Shepherds you still can't have experienced every dog behavior.

Some might be shocked by neutering yet some are shocked by prong and e-collars, its personal opinion.
I have read a lot of articles WITH statistics both for and against neutering, therefore it can only be the owners own experience and knowledge of their own dog and others to make that decision. 

I do appreciate those that have shared useful advise.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'm curious since you have had so much experience with this more on what the difference is mentally on a neutered vs intact dog? What do you mean by calm confidence?
> 
> Not excitable, calm. They see something that a young confident dog gets excited about, maybe wants to explore, acts with energy and arousal vs a fully mature dog that looks at the same and dismisses it as a non issue. Many mature dogs will come to minimize conflict and focus more on their owners. They become more serious and less puppyish. Of course exposure and training play roles as well.
> 
> ...


Of course a one year old dog will act like a dog neutered before mental maturity. They are on the same playing field. Hormones are instrumental in physical, social and mental maturation. Dogs humping dogs, unless one is a bitch in heat, is not usually of a sexual nature, but can have roots in many causes. Humping random dogs or household items is not something I have experienced with my intact dogs.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Sorry, I misread the reference to the vet. 

As long as you have done your research and are aware of the pros and cons, there should be no criticism for doing what you feel is best for you and your dog. After all, you know him much better than any of us here.

We all have our opinions, pretty strong ones at times. Please don't be put off by that. We all love our dogs and this breed, and we want what is best for them all.

I hope whatever you do turns out well for all concerned. Best of luck with your dog.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

VickyNero said:


> I never wanted this turn into a debate as to pro or anti neutering which is why I didn't ask that, simply after op care and advise.
> 
> No one should assume that I am doing this without plenty of research and advice.
> My trainer is the best I know of all the trainers I have known her knowledge and experience is next to non.
> ...


I am sorry your thread derailed with into the anti-neuter territory. I myself am a fan of keeping dogs intact, both for health and behavior reasons, but I never thought you came into this uneducated, I commend you for getting through to 19 months without falling to the societal pressure. I figured your vet and you at least had a good head on your shoulders about not doing juvenile neutering! 

In all honesty if you want to go through with the neuter - I truly do not believe waiting another 4 months is going to make a huge difference to your dog health or behavior wise. Chances are for a GSD sized dog - by this age the growth plates are already closed (per just about every peer reviewed study and veterinary reference I have viewed) My own vets (even my anti neuter old holistic hippy lady) are ok with medium-larges getting snipped at 18m (with giants waiting for 24 month). Talk with your vet. If you don't trust their opinion you've got bigger problems than deciding on a surgery date! Ask about the research on growth plate closures. Ask about their personal experience with neutering at this age You could do x rays to confirm. I do believe that there are reasons to keep intact longer, but waiting an extra 4 months isn't going to have any significant benefits - another year. Maybe. But if you are going to do it, at this point, any time that fits your family schedule I wouldn't bat an eye lash at. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are neutered at your dog's age and live long healthy lives afterwards. If you want to wait for the dog to mature more before snipping - Might as well get all the way through it and wait until closer to 4 or even 5 years. Then you'll have a fully mature dog both physically and mentally. 

One thing I would caution though, since you mentioned the catalyst for the surgery being your dog's "interest" in other dogs - is really getting down to the nitty gritty and figuring out the underlying cause of that behavior is. IF it is anxiety based behavior, keep in mind that neutering is well documented in INCREASING anxiety (see Zink's Gonadectomized Vizsla study) so neutering may have the opposite effect of what you are looking for.

Don't let anyone shame you for your decisions on your dog's health.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

VickyNero said:


> I never wanted this turn into a debate as to pro or anti neutering which is why I didn't ask that, simply after op care and advise.
> 
> No one should assume that I am doing this without plenty of research and advice.
> My trainer is the best I know of all the trainers I have known her knowledge and experience is next to non.
> ...


This is your dog, your vet, your choice. Full stop. Nobody here has the right to shame you or criticize you for doing what they think you should do, versus what you believe is right for your situation. You alone know your dog and what you can handle as far as precautionary measures and training. You balance out all of the risks and benefits, and you make the choice that's right for you.

When and whether to spay/neuter is a personal decision, just as personal as breeder vs rescue, kids vs childfree, city vs country life, all of that is personal and yours alone. If I want my right to all of those choices, then I need to support your right to yours whether I agree or not.

You love your dog, you know your dog, and you've got this.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

VickyNero said:


> ... and also that Nero loves other dogs and isn't aggressive with anyone ...


I am really confused.

Please share how you expect neutering to impact you dog's lack of dog or human aggression. What changes are you hoping to see?


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious since you have had so much experience with this more on what the difference is mentally on a neutered vs intact dog? What do you mean by calm confidence?
> ...


Thank you for the explaination!

Our vet wanted him neutered at 4 months, we ran out of there lol.


----------



## BradyC87 (Dec 20, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am really confused.
> 
> Please share how you expect neutering to impact you dog's lack of dog or human aggression. What changes are you hoping to see?


You are confused because you either misread or didn't read the whole post you're quoting from.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BradyC87 said:


> You are confused because you either misread or didn't read the whole post you're quoting from.


Nothing confusing in what was posted, that is crystal clear to me. What neutering has to do with what is posted is my point of confusion.

"...also that Nero loves other dogs and isn't aggressive with anyone..."

"...My trainer is amazing and she does not take any op or medication or treatment by the vet lightly. I trust her opinion a lot and she has even suggested to me that now might the time *to see if it improves this problem*.

*I am very aware this might not make any change...*

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8844114-post30.html


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> This is your dog, your vet, your choice. Full stop. Nobody here has the right to shame you or criticize you for doing what they think you should do, versus what you believe is right for your situation. You alone know your dog and what you can handle as far as precautionary measures and training. You balance out all of the risks and benefits, and you make the choice that's right for you.
> 
> When and whether to spay/neuter is a personal decision, just as personal as breeder vs rescue, kids vs childfree, city vs country life, all of that is personal and yours alone. If I want my right to all of those choices, then I need to support your right to yours whether I agree or not.
> 
> You love your dog, you know your dog, and you've got this.


No one is shaming or criticizing, save maybe you...

What some of the others of us are doing is trying to inform someone and save them some grief. But, perhaps everyone has to learn some things the hard way, through experience, at the cost of their dogs. That is their right. 

If the information out there on altering was so incredibly biased, then we could just wash our hands of it and expect everyone to do their own research. 

The OP is obviously not one of those of us who have been following the alter issue for many years. The title alone -- THE Appointment, like she expects everyone to pat her back for neutering and welcoming her to party of responsible dog owners. The vet says... The trainer says... Yep, I had a trainer that said that to someone, I fired her. As for vets well, a couple of things are going on: they often do pro-bono work for shelters, and euthanasia has to be done by a vet, so, they do that, and I can see them wanting to limit unintentional reproduction, though that is pushing their agenda on people. Also spay/neuter is a cash cow. And then, vets have de-sexed so many critters in the course of their careers that for self-preservation, I think many vets cannot consider the idea that de-sexing a critter may be harmful to it. So they are not charging forward with studies and such. And if they did, then they can also be biased studies. 

So, you will say, if we cannot trust our vet or our trainer than what are we to do? EASY! Use your own common sense. Wake it up! Do the take our testicles or ovaries and womb when we are 8 or 12 years old??? No. Why? It isn't because we might want to have children some day. It is because those glands are important. Important for growth and for long-term health. 

But we all know it all. We've done our research, and we know this is right for our dog. All we need to know is how to keep him off the stitches. 

I can't help you there. I don't spay or neuter unless there is a serious issue with the reproductive organs.


----------



## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

It's a management and training issue not a hormone issue. Maybe OP should explain more about their dogs infatuation with other dogs and if they let I'm dog parks. I have a doggie dog (11 months) and am curious how it should be handled. I from what limited information I understand this can NOT be changed by a neuter.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The neutered males were annoying to my intact one (Wolfy), who just shrugged it off by focusing on me; he was trained unlike all the neutered-by-responsible-owners males, who tried to hump and push him. It is the one area in a dog park I have to cross in order to get to the river in the summer. Otherwise I avoid dog parks like the plague.
Interestingly, when I lived in Europe the (unfenced) parks, were much for fun. Males intact, some posturing but no fights. Hmmm, not because everyone is a dog trainer there.


----------



## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

If you go on the OSS and vasectomy group on facebook, they have the studies on their main page under the files section. When I was a kid (horse and buggy days) we never neutered pets...didn't over vaccinate...and I remember them living much longer..didn't have all the specialized foods for puppies and different breeds. But the OSS page is super about pros/cons of especially early neutering, and gives the options available to save hormones and remove ability to reproduce..females still have some sort of heat cycle and males will still have their testosterone and be interested in females in heat..but eliminates ability to reproduce.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Preventing your dog from pro-creating is EASY. Crate or Kennel him if your bitch is in heat. If you do not have a bitch and are worried about him impregnating the neighborhood bitches. Keep him home. Not hard. Don't leave him in a yard, whether there is a fence or an e-fence unsupervised. Easy. You shouldn't anyway. If you have a kennel, even 5x10' with a dog house, on patio blocks or concrete. Your dog will be quite safe. If you have a climber, cover it over with some fencing, horse fencing ins fine. When you are home, your dog can enjoy the entire yard and it won't be all dug up or anything. When you are away, your dog is safely kenneled, and won't get shot by hunters or farmers, or run in front of a car, or impregnate the neighbor's bitches. 

The rest of it, ALL of it, is maturity, training, leadership, management. 

You can neuter, and if you up your training, leadership, and management, you will have a nice dog. 
You can not neuter and up your training, leadership, and management and you will have a nice dog. 

Your choice.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> No one is shaming or criticizing, save maybe you...
> 
> What some of the others of us are doing is trying to inform someone and save them some grief. But, perhaps everyone has to learn some things the hard way, through experience, at the cost of their dogs. That is their right.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize I was being critical. I'm so sorry you feel that way. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

We have to be careful, though. If keeping an animal intact was so very beneficial, very few humans would have cancer or illness- and yet, they do. At high rates. We also have highly immature 71 year olds, and very mature 15 year olds out there, in the human world. So hormones alone don't equal maturity or equate to a certain temperament, not necessarily anyway. If there are parallels in the human world. 

Certainly hormones play an important role, and I do chose to keep my dogs intact. However, it's not a cure all, and there's no problem with neutering a dog at around 1.5 to 2 years old, in my opinion. I won't, but I can certainly understand why someone would chose to, and don't question that decision. I do have a real problem with pediatric neutering and think that causes so many health and temperament issues it should only happen for extreme reasons (can't think of any right now).


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> I didn't realize I was being critical. I'm so sorry you feel that way. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


You are trying to get my goat with all your "we will have to." Too bad. My ignore function works, and I can employ it at any time, if I so desire. I HAVE THE POWER >.

But yes, you were being critical of those posting their thoughts on spaying and neutering, those of us who are against it anyway:

"This is your dog, your vet, your choice. *Full stop*. *Nobody here* *has the right to shame you or criticize you* for doing what they think you should do, versus what you believe is right for your situation. You alone know your dog and what you can handle as far as precautionary measures and training. You balance out all of the risks and benefits, and you make the choice that's right for you.

When and whether to spay/neuter is a personal decision, just as personal as breeder vs rescue, kids vs childfree, city vs country life, all of that is personal and yours alone. If I want my right to all of those choices, then I need to support your right to yours whether I agree or not.

*You love your dog, you know your dog, and you've got this*."

So in your round-about way you are saying that we are brow-beating our agenda on the OP. Maybe so. But you are talking about us. "Nobody HERE." And that Full Stop" Yeah, you are shaming and criticizing. That is what your higher power or inner self is telling you what is needed. That is ok. But the other red statement, "You love your dog, you know your dog, and you've got this." Well, of course someone who posts here loves their dog. Sure, we all do. The hoarder down the road loves her dogs, though she cannot see the lesions and the matted hair. Loving your dog is not enough, and it is NOT an indication that you know what is best for them. 

Neutering is a personal choice. But we all start off at a great disadvantage, because there is an insidious pro-alter thought process out there. Total lies are treated as fact -- "if you don't want your dog to wander, neuter him." That will keep him safe? It is my neutered dog that will go after amish buggies and horses, not my intact bitches or my intact dog-pup. Is it because he is neutered? Probably not. I don't know, I got him as an older pup -- 18 months old, and he HATED horses the day after I got him. Not sure if something happened, or what. None of my others have that problem. But the point is, that neutering does not solve a containment issue. Nor does it solve behavior problems. 


And yet proponents of altering continue to say this and so much more. And those, the very many who do alter their critter seem to be unrelentless in how they believe everyone else should too. 

I was in a pet store once with a young dog, and I was talking to a lady and it came up that my boy was intact. She looked at me like I had two heads, and asked me if I wanted him to get cancer??? These people are everywhere. They are normal people that you work with, family members, folks on the street, at church. It is one of the most successful mis-information campaigns put on by the HSUS/PETA crowd. And no, I don't believe any young dog owner has "got this." 

I sell puppies. I have a hundred owners or more out there that I have had this conversation with to some extent or another. And yet, most of them call me and let me know when they have had "The Appointment." I understand why they do it. They listen to their trainers, they listen to their vets. They listen to folks on the net that think every four-legged thing ought to be "fixed." They do not realize that now their four-legged friend is now, actually, "broken." Some breeders go so far as to demand people wait for a certain time or void their warranty. I believe when an animal is sold, it now belongs to the new owner who has to make their own decisions. But it is, to me, telling, how many folks feel responsible for altering their pet, so much so that they call me and let me know they did it. 


Now if you would like to agree to disagree about this, you can, but if I think of something more to say about it, I probably will.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> You are trying to get my goat with all your "we will have to." Too bad. My ignore function works, and I can employ it at any time, if I so desire. I HAVE THE POWER >.
> 
> But yes, you were being critical of those posting their thoughts on spaying and neutering, those of us who are against it anyway:
> 
> ...


Seltzer, I'm sorry you read my post that way. That wasn't the spirit in which it was intended. Since we clearly see things so differently, we will indeed have to agree to disagree. I don't want to bicker, so I'll leave it there. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Seltzer, I'm sorry you read my post that way. That wasn't the spirit in which it was intended. Since we clearly see things so differently, we will indeed have to agree to disagree. I don't want to bicker, so I'll leave it there.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Why can you not ASK, like I did, "if you would like, we can agree to disagree"? or "Can we agree to disagree on this?" Instead you have to be a controlling person by saying "we will have to..." Is this a personality thing? Because I can assure you, that I have told several times it bothers me, and you won't stop. That is actually bullying behavior. A smiley face does not soften controlling or bullying behavior. You know it bothers me. Because I told you. You won't quit. I am going to have to go tell an adult... There is a zero-tolerance policy here of some sort. I assure you that when you say, "We will have to..." You either have a mouse in your pocket, or you are talking about death. Because, yes indeed, we will have to die someday. Other than that, I can't think of a single thing that We will HAVE to do. 

And yes, if the adults think that I am being picky on this. This is a conversation stopper. If I refuse, I am baboon's backside. The other party can say what they think, demand we agree to disagree, and then watch me either give up and not respond to their point or be a baboon's backside. And we had this conversation several times, to the point when Watery Tart thinks it is funny. It's not. 

If you do not want to bicker than stop using this in so many of your posts to me.

And, my NAME is Selzer. NOT Seltzer. I've been attached to it for about half a century now, please do not butcher it.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Why can you not ASK, like I did, "if you would like, we can agree to disagree"? or "Can we agree to disagree on this?" Instead you have to be a controlling person by saying "we will have to..." Is this a personality thing? Because I can assure you, that I have told several times it bothers me, and you won't stop. That is actually bullying behavior. A smiley face does not soften controlling or bullying behavior. You know it bothers me. Because I told you. You won't quit. I am going to have to go tell an adult... There is a zero-tolerance policy here of some sort. I assure you that when you say, "We will have to..." You either have a mouse in your pocket, or you are talking about death. Because, yes indeed, we will have to die someday. Other than that, I can't think of a single thing that We will HAVE to do.
> 
> And yes, if the adults think that I am being picky on this. This is a conversation stopper. If I refuse, I am baboon's backside. The other party can say what they think, demand we agree to disagree, and then watch me either give up and not respond to their point or be a baboon's backside. And we had this conversation several times, to the point when Watery Tart thinks it is funny. It's not.
> 
> If you do not want to bicker than stop trying using this in so many of your posts to me.


Seltzer, I'm sorry you're reading it this way, truly. I'm not trying to control or fight you. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

please folks, if you are upset with each other take it to the private messages. I know that we can get on each other's nerves. It is far too easy with text to miss-read..it happens to me all the time no matter how carefully I word my posts. I would hate to see new members be afraid to write their questions and opinions, trying to avoid conflict.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sorry selzer - I'm typing on my phone and my auto correct must have done that.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, like I've said before, I had Russell neutered when he was 3. I had no intentions of neutering him. I mean, he doesn't mark, and I'm very capable of keeping him away from the intact bitches I've had in my house. However, he was getting impossible to live with. When he turned 3 and Carly came in heat, he not only wailed, screamed and howled, _but he started growling at me_, and refused to eat. He lost a lot of weight that last time, and I had just had it with his grumpy attitude towards me. I called my breeder and said I was either going to murder Russ or have him neutered. When Scarlet came in heat in November, the worst I got from Russell was him sticking his nose up her butt at every opportunity. I can live with that. I can't live with growling at me, and keeping everyone up all night for about 2 weeks at a time. He'll be 5 next month, and he's back to being his sunny self. Sometimes you do what you have to do to live with them. I'm good with my decision.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Well, like I've said before, I had Russell neutered when he was 3. I had no intentions of neutering him. I mean, he doesn't mark, and I'm very capable of keeping him away from the intact bitches I've had in my house. However, he was getting impossible to live with. When he turned 3 and Carly came in heat, he not only wailed, screamed and howled, _but he started growling at me_, and refused to eat. He lost a lot of weight that last time, and I had just had it with his grumpy attitude towards me. I called my breeder and said I was either going to murder Russ or have him neutered. When Scarlet came in heat in November, the worst I got from Russell was him sticking his nose up her butt at every opportunity. I can live with that. I can't live with growling at me, and keeping everyone up all night for about 2 weeks at a time. He'll be 5 next month, and he's back to being his sunny self. Sometimes you do what you have to do to live with them. I'm good with my decision.


We went the other route, spayed our gal at 18 months. She is a good girl but not a one that should be bred. My big-boy does pretty well but if there is a sweet young thing in heat, he is too distracted to work decently. It is a trade off we are willing to make. 

There are so many variables to consider, pros and cons. With our male it is a clearer decision than it was for our female. I took a Wait and See attitude toward spaying.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

car2ner said:


> We went the other route, spayed our gal at 18 months. She is a good girl but not a one that should be bred. My big-boy does pretty well but if there is a sweet young thing in heat, he is too distracted to work decently. It is a trade off we are willing to make.
> 
> There are so many variables to consider, pros and cons. With our male it is a clearer decision than it was for our female. I took a Wait and See attitude toward spaying.



Makes sense!
For me, I knew I'd always have intact bitches since I show, so it wasn't going to get any better with Russ intact. I eventually got Carly spayed after she turned 6 (I freaked out over the possibility of pyometra). And now I have 16 month old Scarlet. After Russ, no more males for me! I just prefer female dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> Makes sense!
> For me, I knew I'd always have intact bitches since I show, so it wasn't going to get any better with Russ intact. I eventually got Carly spayed after she turned 6 (I freaked out over the possibility of pyometra). And now I have 16 month old Scarlet. After Russ, no more males for me! I just prefer female dogs.


Bitches are the best! 

I have a neutered male who is 5. When his kennel-mate goes in heat, it's like a porno-flick out there. He is constantly going after her. I actually turned him over and examined his secret sack. (I did not have him neutered, got him that way.) I have never had trouble with Dubya or Rushie or Oscar or Nder or Mufasa, and Kojak is young, but he knows what it is all about. No problem with him going off his feed, and yodeling all night or anything. I hate to say it is incomprehensible that he would ever growl at me. I expect you thought the same about Russ before hand. The other boys never did though. In fact, I could call them back from a bitch down the line flagging her tail at him through the fencing, and no problems. Different dogs are different though. 

I thought I would be happy with no dog though. If you are planning to breed the bitches, having a dog, even a neutered dog, I suppose is invaluable. After rehoming Nder and Oscar and losing Moofie, I had no intact dog, just Cujo. But Nder and Oscar were related to everything I had, and so, I let them go to homes where they could be the center of attention. No dog. The bitches would go into heat, but no one can tell when the bitch is ready as a good stud dog, even if you do not intend to use him for the mating. The neutered boy would mount Hepsi, but he never got interested when my other girls went into heat. Needless to say, I haven't had a litter since Moof passed.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

VickyNero said:


> Nero is now 19 months and I have just booked his check up ahead of his castration.
> I do feel a little guilty to out him through it.
> He has never had a problem with going to the Vets but has never been sedated before.
> 
> What is everyone's tips for aftercare and making the process as easy and stress free as possible.


First, please don't feel guilty. You are doing the best for Nero based on your vet's and trainer's advice. Contrary to many of the posts on your thread, I am pro neutering and spaying. But I do respect one's individual choice. There are health benefits also to neutering and spaying. 

If you are giving Nero supplements, I did find this article on stopping them before and after surgery and posted it on this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/726906-supplements-stop-before-surgery.html

If Nero has a favorite toy, I suggest you bring that along. When my Sting was neutered, I took his favorite toy and I also sat with him until the first shot took effect and he became drowsy. Then the vet came and I gave him Sting's toy and Sting went quietly with him. When you pick him up, take him right outside to potty then put him in the vehicle and go back and pay the bill. Because of the sedation, I had to be careful to only give him small amounts of food and water in several meals for the first day. Ice cubes helped as that would quench his thirst. For my puppy Baron's surgery, I do plan to use the CBD (hemp oil) treats and give him some the night before and also as one of the snacks afterwards. The CBD is supposed to give pain relief and relaxation. Since the neutering is considered a minor surgery, the males do recover faster. My Sting was back to normal by the next day.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Mary Beth said:


> First, please don't feel guilty. You are doing the best for Nero based on your vet's and trainer's advice. Contrary to many of the posts on your thread, I am pro neutering and spaying. But I do respect one's individual choice. There are health benefits also to neutering and spaying.
> 
> If you are giving Nero supplements, I did find this article on stopping them before and after surgery and posted it on this thread:
> 
> ...


CBD is a major Cytochrome P450 inhibitor. It effects the way the body metabolizes medications. It should be at the top of the list in regards to supplements to stop it - has a_ half life_ of up to 48 hours. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4189631/

It might be a minor surgery, but it IS done under anesthesia and you don't want to be messing with your dog's liver enzymes when they need to be put under.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

voodoolamb said:


> CBD is a major Cytochrome P450 inhibitor. It effects the way the body metabolizes medications. It should be at the top of the list in regards to supplements to stop it - has a_ half life_ of up to 48 hours.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4189631/
> 
> It might be a minor surgery, but it IS done under anesthesia and you don't want to be messing with your dog's liver enzymes when they need to be put under.


Thank you for the clarification! CBD oil was not listed in article I referenced in the thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/726906-supplements-stop-before-surgery.html

I started the thread because I could not find any information on the forum in regard to stopping supplements before surgery. If you have other information to add would you please post on the thread. Thank you.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Mary Beth said:


> Thank you for the clarification! CBD oil was not listed in article I referenced in the thread:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/726906-supplements-stop-before-surgery.html
> 
> I started the thread because I could not find any information on the forum in regard to stopping supplements before surgery. If you have other information to add would you please post on the thread. Thank you.


Yes. CBD won't cause bleeding issues, so that's probably why it wasn't in that article. What it does is deactivate the the liver enzymes that metabolizes medications. Which can severely alter the effectiveness or strength of the dosing. Really scary stuff with certain types of meds. 

Don' feel bad... not a lot of info out there about CBD since it's a grey area of law. It was something I came across in researching CBD for the treatment of epilepsy and I try to share it as much as I can on the forum since lots of us here use CBD for health and behavioral reasons


----------



## VickyNero (Nov 8, 2017)

Thank you for that advice. Nero isn't on any medication or supliments anymore. Has only ever been on anti histamine. 

I won't be making any comments on other arguments about if it's not right or not as that is not what I asked and think it's unnecessary to make it personal.

Nero is a family dog that lives in the house all year round, attends fun training weekly and is socialised very well.

As I said to begin with his biggest problem is a fascination with all other dogs, but it is something we will always train him on as long as he needs it.

So thanks for the advise, in Nero's pre op appointment I will be asking the vets all the questions I need to and if I don't like the answers we will not be staying with that vets.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VickyNero said:


> Thank you for that advice. Nero isn't on any medication or supliments anymore. Has only ever been on anti histamine.
> 
> I won't be making any comments on other arguments about if it's not right or not as that is not what I asked and think it's unnecessary to make it personal.
> 
> ...


It is such a permanent step to make a trial of. It is too bad there is not a drug that would inhibit the testosterone temporarily so that you could have a better idea of whether what you are doing is going to make the difference you want. 

With reactive bitches, spaying is known to increase the reactivity. But you do not have a bitch, and it does not sound like reactivity. 

My neutered dog is the one that is fascinated by horses. And his fascination is coupled with dislike. My other dogs don't act like that. But that could be something quirky with him and may have nothing to do with his lack of hormones. 

I just read the section in My Friend Flicka about neutering the 2 year olds. We are very lucky we have dogs and not horses. Talk about traumatic. Was enough for the kid to choose a filly instead of a colt.


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

VickyNero said:


> Thank you for that advice. Nero isn't on any medication or supliments anymore. Has only ever been on anti histamine.
> 
> I won't be making any comments on other arguments about if it's not right or not as that is not what I asked and think it's unnecessary to make it personal.
> 
> ...


I just found this article for recommended homeopathic treatments to give before and after neutering to aid recovery:

Homeopathic General Instructions Plus Specific Recommendations for Spay/Neuter and Vaccinosis | The Critters & Me


----------

