# Let's talk about drive. . .



## Emoore

On the "would you rather have a high-drive or laid back dog?" thread, I posted:

"A lot of people who think they have a high drive dog. . . don't"

To which PiedPiper replied:
"This really piqued my interest!!

So I'd love to hear from everyone....what, in your opinion, defines a high drive GSD? And also, what are the mistaken traits people who are defining their 'high drive' dog to be...when it really isn't?

(by the way...I'm almost 100% sure I DO have a high drive pup...but will wait to see your answers before determining!)

Thanks!!"


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## Emoore

To me this is an example of good ball drive:

It's 4pm in Dallas Texas and the current temp is 103. Kopper won't stop dropping his ball in my lap, so I took him out to play ball. I figured with the temp being what it is, he wouldn't want to stay out there long, but I was wrong. I threw the ball and threw the ball and threw the ball until my arm got tired and his tongue was hanging to his knees, but he wouldn't quit. Finally I figured I'd bring him back inside for his own good. He immediately went to the back door and started nosing at it with his ball in his mouth, telling me he wanted to go back out and play ball, even though I could tell he was hot and exhausted. He hadn't even taken a drink at this point, after playing ball in the glaring sun and 103 degree heat. Finally, I took his ball and put it away, and he got a HUGE drink and laid down. 

To me this perfectly shows the difference between high drive (focused energy on a task) and high energy, which is just unfocused mayhem. When I put the ball away, he didn't whine, pace, chew the furniture, or anything else. All he wanted was to play ball, even through unbearable heat and thirst. I wouldn't say Kopper is insanely high drive, he's probably a 6.5 or a 7; but to me this is a beautiful example of the difference between drive and energy. 

I'd love to hear some other answers to Piper's question. What, to you, constitutes drive and what differentiates it from energy? What makes people think they have a high drive dog when they don't? 

I think a lot of people think they have a high drive dog because in reality they have a dog that has more energy than they do, or more energy than they have time for, or more exercise needs than they are willing/able to accommodate. So when their dog destroys the furniture or won't settle in the house, they tell themselves they have a high drive dog when in reality, they have a bored, un-stimulated, under-exercised dog.


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## gagsd

I thought I had a high drive dog when we got Kenju. He really liked to play ball.

Then I got a highdrive dog.... he broke collars and leashes if he saw a ball (and car doors if he saw protection work).


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## Rerun

Most people confuse energy with drive. I prefer a medium drive dog myself, and am quite happy to say that. But because black sable working lines are the latest fad and people come along hearing the word "drive," they think if they say their dog has high drive that it's a "cool" thing. Usually their dog isn't truely high drive. It's perhaps high energy (or normal energy for a GSD, but they being new to GSD's or previously having had a really lazy one think this one is crazy energetic) but not necessarily high drive.


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## Freestep

Emoore said:


> To me this perfectly shows the difference between high drive (focused energy on a task) and high energy, which is just unfocused mayhem. When I put the ball away, he didn't whine, pace, chew the furniture, or anything else.


Luka is the same way. She lives and dies by the ball, or even the *idea* of a ball. But once the ball is put away, she's quiet and calm. I would call her a high drive but moderate energy dog. I think she would give herself a heart attack chasing the ball if I let her go as long as she wanted, but when there's nothing to incite her drive, she is laid back, usually flat on the floor. 

I once had a dog that was hyperactive and I think she had the canine version of ADD. She would spin in circles, run from room to room for no apparent reason, just for the sake of running, I guess. You could take a long line and longe her like a horse, and even after intense exercise she was still hyperactive. Her ball drive was only moderate, as she was too easily distractable and could not truly focus for very long on anything (except a cat). I would call her a high energy dog, but not a high drive dog, though many people would see that energy and assume it to be drive.

Vinca is only 7 months old, so time will tell, but right now she is neither high drive nor hyperactive. Being a puppy, she is always noodling around playing with something, but her ball drive is only moderate--she'll chase the ball, but not with serious intensity that Luka has. Honestly, she seems to have more fun chasing Luka when Luka plays ball.


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## Tbarrios333

I would say Denali is not over the top in her ball drive. She has an awesome off button, but she will play until she drops.
However, I'm not 100% sure that a ball can be enough motivation to distract her from REALLY interesting things like a big strange dog. The ball may get her attention temporarily, but she's not one for flashy obedience.

The puppy on the other hand is WAY drivier (is that a word?). She will do ANYTHING and put up with whatever you throw at her for food. Shots, thermometer up her butt, big strange dogs near her, little dogs near her, kids near her, strange kids squeaking toys at her, stranger walking by her, new areas to work in. Nothing at all can remove her focus from a treat and/or training session. If I do lose her attention it's easy to get it back.
Now Buzz is definitely flashy with the OB. She is still in the process of developing an off button. I would classify her as highly driven, but will leave the judgement to the more experienced


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## onyx'girl

The dogs I see that are truly high drive are ones that seem to leak during obedience. They are foamy on the ball as well.
They are flashy, and ball monsters, but don't know how to chill, even when the owner platzes them with the relax command, they are still "on".
I'm not sure I'd want that type, but they are fun to watch!
Two of my dogs are a bit higher driven, they love to be active, but do know how to relax when asked. One word though will have them up and at it. 

Reactivity in the crate or vehicle is a pain and most of the higher drive dogs I know are that type....you can't even walk by the vehicle without it rocking. Not saying reactivity equals drive, but most of the high drive dogs I know are lower threshold.
They are NOT black sables, by the way.....most of the black sables I see are pretty laid back, almost to the point of low drive.


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## Rerun

onyx'girl said:


> They are NOT black sables, by the way.....most of the black sables I see are pretty laid back, almost to the point of low drive.


I wasn't saying the black sables were higher drive...just saying they seem to be the latest fad...whereas before you hardly saw them outside the true working dog people. And those with a small amount of knowledge do a little reading, then get a dog that likes to play fetch (OP this isn't at all directed at you) and is active and suddenly they think they have a "high drive" dog.


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## Freestep

Rerun said:


> I wasn't saying the black sables were higher drive...just saying they seem to be the latest fad...whereas before you hardly saw them outside the true working dog people.


My hyperactive, ADD dog was a black sable.


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## GSD07

Are we talking only about prey drive here?

Maybe, a little off, but I was wondering what drive is this: you play a ball, then end the game, throw the ball in some bush, then take the dog inside, or continue with a walk and other activities, etc. The second you return to the same place and release the dog, it can be even a few days later, he goes to search for the ball and brings it to you. Is it a hunt drive?


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## gagsd

GSD07 said:


> Are we talking only about prey drive here?
> 
> Maybe, a little off, but I was wondering what drive is this: you play a ball, then end the game, throw the ball in some bush, then take the dog inside, or continue with a walk and other activities, etc. The second you return to the same place and release the dog, it can be even a few days later, he goes to search for the ball and brings it to you. Is it a hunt drive?


I would say that is a different "drive" or drive-component than just the dog that really wants to play ball. Calling it "hunt-drive" works for me.


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## JakodaCD OA

Emoore, is Masi living with you? LOL She's alot like Kopper, only her thing is a frisbee or jollyball, whatever I choose to let her have..It''s stifling here, and that girl would go all day long retrieving that frisbee if I let her..bring her in, if I don't take the frisbee away from her, she'll stand by the door ready for more. When I do take it away, she knows to settle down ..and nope, she's never chewed a thing in my house 

I rather see drive and energy the way you do, drive to me, seems to be more focused 'on' something, 'driven' to do 'whatever' it is. Of course I think you can have a dog with alot of drive AND high energy, but I don't like seeing energy that is 'hectic' with no purpose? If that makes sense.

With Masi, I see alot more play drive vs prey drive.


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## DanielleOttoMom

Emmore... We are in the same metroplex so I feel you on the heat. Otto and Kopper are very similar. Really Maybe its In the air lol. My hubby jokes about how we both are ADD! It's a 103 out there and is totally ball OCD (loves balls and would do any thing for a ball). We play for a little every night and he will constantly bring it to me or throw it at the door. So I have to keep put away. Use it for fun and for training. Otto is always ready to go do what ever. He even knows when I'm going out to smoke a cigarette. He sees me grab my lighter and gets totally excited (bc he goes out side with me). He will grab a toy and he is ready to play again... We also walk about a mile each night bc of the heat we don't walks as farThen will come inside and play with his toys for hours. He is constantly on the go.... Has a great on off switch though in my opinion. Knows when to play, work and relax. I could go on and on but I don't know how much is drive. (not an expert)


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## PiedPiperInKC

Oooooh...can't wait to get in on this discussion...but am leaving for my little Miss 'high drive' Kaiya's 1st puppy class!! LOL

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on this when I posted that reply last night....so VERY glad you went ahead and did it!!

Can't wait to read these responses!


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## Emoore

JakodaCD OA said:


> Emoore, is Masi living with you? LOL She's alot like Kopper, only her thing is a frisbee or jollyball, whatever I choose to let her have..It''s stifling here, and that girl would go all day long retrieving that frisbee if I let her..bring her in, if I don't take the frisbee away from her, she'll stand by the door ready for more. When I do take it away, she knows to settle down ..and nope, she's never chewed a thing in my house


Wow, they do sound a lot alike. We put Kopper's crate away when he was 5 months old; he's never chewed or destroyed anything. But he's definitely OCD about his ball, his eGGe ball, and his flirtpole. He'll go to the closet where those things are kept, stick his nose in the crack under the door, and inhale like he's taking air samples. 



JakodaCD OA said:


> I rather see drive and energy the way you do, drive to me, seems to be more focused 'on' something, 'driven' to do 'whatever' it is. Of course I think you can have a dog with alot of drive AND high energy, but I don't like seeing energy that is 'hectic' with no purpose? If that makes sense.


I agree. The first time I remember seeing real true drive was when I was a kid growing up, with my dad's cattle dogs. Those dogs lived and died for the sheer joy of moving cattle around. 

What would you call the drive/urge to climb on things? I swear I could build a rickety suspension bridge out of toothpicks and bubble gum and Kopper would walk a mile out of his way to climb on it. He LOVES the wobble board and agility tunnel at his obedience school. When we walk in the first thing he does is run over to the tunnel, and if it's put away and laying on its side he'll climb up and into it. If I leave the bar stools in a line behind the couch, he'll climb up onto the back of the couch and then walk across the bar stools to the bar. Not because there's anything up there he wants, just for the sheer joy of climbing on something wobbly and high above the ground. Is that a type of drive? Or just lunacy?


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## GSD07

It's just puppyhood


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## Freestep

GSD07 said:


> Maybe, a little off, but I was wondering what drive is this: you play a ball, then end the game, throw the ball in some bush, then take the dog inside, or continue with a walk and other activities, etc. The second you return to the same place and release the dog, it can be even a few days later, he goes to search for the ball and brings it to you. Is it a hunt drive?


That's a good question, is it hunt drive or prey drive? Whenever we go outside, Luka will start hunting for her ball immediately, in an almost frantic way... if she can't find her ball, she'll invent something else to play with... a stick, a block of wood, an old 2x4...


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## gagsd

Most people hear "high drive" and think ball/play. What about a high -defense- drive dog? Or -hunt- or whatever other drive you can name?


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## Chris Wild

GSD07 said:


> Are we talking only about prey drive here?
> 
> Maybe, a little off, but I was wondering what drive is this: you play a ball, then end the game, throw the ball in some bush, then take the dog inside, or continue with a walk and other activities, etc. The second you return to the same place and release the dog, it can be even a few days later, he goes to search for the ball and brings it to you. Is it a hunt drive?


Yes, that is hunt drive. And a really good memory. 





onyx'girl said:


> The dogs I see that are truly high drive are ones that seem to leak during obedience. They are foamy on the ball as well.
> They are flashy, and ball monsters, but don't know how to chill, even when the owner platzes them with the relax command, they are still "on".


That's not high drive, that is drive that overloads the nerve. Either the dog has been conditioned through training to load to an inappropriate level that is too much for the dog to handle, or genetically the dog's drive and nerve are out of balance. Or both. Unfortunately this sort of dog is becoming more and more common, but it is not correct IMO.

While this sort of drive overload is most often seen in high drive dogs, it is not exclusive to high drive dogs. A dog can be a 5 on a 1-10 scale, but if his nerve can only handle a 4, this sort of behavior will result. Not because the drive is high, but because the nerve is too thin for what drive the dog has. Likewise, if a dog is a 10 in drive but it's nerve can handle it then these problems don't result.


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## Josh's mom

Josh has a lot of prey drive. 

He's 11 months now, he's lived in our house since he was 8 weeks old with 3 cats, whenever they run anywhere he's on his feet in an instant, tracking them with his eyes (he has tried to go after them but they're small and fast, hasn't caught one yet). He feels the same about bikes, skateboards, other small rodents, etc.

His food drive comes second, he will eat anything at anytime.

Toy drive is probably 3rd with him, he really loves his tug but is only so-so with balls.


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## sagelfn

Chris Wild said:


> That's not high drive, that is drive that overloads the nerve. Either the dog has been conditioned through training to load to an inappropriate level that is too much for the dog to handle, or genetically the dog's drive and nerve are out of balance. Or both. Unfortunately this sort of dog is becoming more and more common, but it is not correct IMO.
> 
> While this sort of drive overload is most often seen in high drive dogs, it is not exclusive to high drive dogs. A dog can be a 5 on a 1-10 scale, but if his nerve can only handle a 4, this sort of behavior will result. Not because the drive is high, but because the nerve is too thin for what drive the dog has. Likewise, if a dog is a 10 in drive but it's nerve can handle it then these problems don't result.


IMO this sounds like Sage. I would say he is med/high energy, medium drive with low threshold. I think with handling mistakes by me he has learned to be more amped up about things than he can handle. It could also be genetic since he's not from a good breeder. I have a hard time thinking he could have tons of drive because of his breeding but I have met many many GSDs that are not full blast like Sage.

Things he enjoys like fetch in the water, frisbee...he starts out sort of whining and/or barking randomly. I think that would be leaking drive. He will do those activities until he drops. I have to put away the frisbee or toy stick whatever we are using. He will keep going back to it or find it where I hide it and want to keep playing even if he is exhausted.

FINALLY as he's matured he will settle down when it is time but OMG if I say 1 certain word(s) he is super excited and will not settle back down until we are going and doing.

I kind of like his crazy on the verge of out of control behavior now but I agree it is not correct and I wouldn't have knowingly chosen this behavior in a dog.


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## elisabeth_00117

Okay, I am going to take a stab at this.

I am better at giving examples at what I consider each drive to be.. hopefully everyone understands the points I am trying to make. 

Prey drive

Take the lure out, place it on the ground, give it a shake or two or move it and the dog is totally focused on that lure. Tries and tries and tries to catch it no matter what is around, what he touches, hears, etc. he is focused on his "prey" or lure. Once he has it, full bite, calm (no mouthing), holds on to that lure until told to drop it or it's pried from his mouth.

Defense drive

When faced with a "bad guy" (let's say this is on the schH field) the dog will actively guard (bark, stare the guy down) and forwardly go after the "bad guy". Defense drive is kicked into gear when the dog feels threatened or concerned about a situation. 

There is a lot more that plays into this type of drive such as confidence, temperament, nerve, etc., etc. but that kinda sums it up for me.

A dog who will not back down if the threat is still there. They will continue no matter the situation "defending" themselves or their handler until the threat has been neutralized.

Those are the two I will address since they are the ones everyone keeps mentioning.

Oh, forgot one!

Hunt drive

You throw the ball/toy/food in some tall grass and the dog does not stop looking until it is found. He is actively scenting and searching.

If I am wrong, please correct me!


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## hunterisgreat

My male is high prey drive, my female is off the charts. Anything that quicky moves gets an immediate prey attention. She cannot help it. With my female in training I have to intentionally not build any prey for the ball/tug bc she gets so drivey it takes away from the exercise. Food drive is higher in my male, but he's very picky about what he will eat. Female will eat a piece of cardboard if I make it look like I'm eating it. Still she isn't as food motivated


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## VomBlack

Okay, so this thought just popped up in my head as I was reading through this thread. For those who have done the TT with their dogs, would you consider the last portion of the test (threatening stranger) to be a kind of test on the defense drive of the dog? If not why not, and what else instead of or addition to would it be testing? 

This is what happens when i'm up early without a cup of coffee yet.


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## Chris Wild

VomBlack said:


> For those who have done the TT with their dogs, would you consider the last portion of the test (threatening stranger) to be a kind of test on the defense drive of the dog?


Yes, that is exactly what it is testing. Which is why for breeds that are supposed to have defense, like the GSD, a defensive reaction will result in a high score and failure to at least watch and alert, and any sort of avoidant reaction, will result in failing the test. Whereas for other breeds that are not supposed to have defense drive, reacting with defense can result in failure because it is not appropriate for that breed.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I would say Sasha is a low to medium in drive, and on the higher end of medium energy wise. I could be completely wrong, as I don't know a whole lot about these things. I can channel her energy into something, but I don't know that I would ever be able to give her a job. Maybe tracking, because she does have quite a nose, and doesn't stop until she finds what it is she's scenting out...or when the trail ends but ends up with nothing there (a rabbit trail to a den but sans a rabbit at the time) at which point I get a look like "But Mom! I wanted it! Make the rabbit come back so I can chase it :-( My ideal dog would probably be one that has drive that is on the higher end of medium and energy that is a pretty solid medium. I would like to do schH someday, and this would be the dog I would want to get to do that. However, I'm glad Sasha is the way she is since she's my first GSD. I don't think I could have handled a high drive dog right off the bat.


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## gsdraven

Emoore said:


> When I put the ball away, he didn't whine, pace, chew the furniture, or anything else. All he wanted was to play ball, even through unbearable heat and thirst. I wouldn't say Kopper is insanely high drive, he's probably a 6.5 or a 7; but to me this is a beautiful example of the difference between drive and energy.


I hope this doesn't take the thread off course but I have a question regarding Kaiser's ball drive. 

If he sees a ball (any ball), he pretty much becomes obsessed with it. If he knows the ball is somewhere (under the sofa for example) he has to get it out (and has moved my sofa across the room trying). Once he gets it, he'll play with it if I engage him or he can lay down with it as long as it is near him. He'll do anything for a ball and that overrides everything (except something that squeaks). 

Last week at agility, he was working great for treats until he spotted a couple of tennis balls on a shelf. I couldn't get his attention away so we used the balls for his reward after doing an obstacle. It worked fine and he wasn't just doing the obstacle to get to the ball but enjoyed laying down and chomping on it for a bit as a reward.

If he sees me put it away, he does settle and leave it be. I don't let him have balls often because of the obsessiveness of it.

Is that drive (and which ones) or just obsession?


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## Emoore

I think obsession and drive are different points on the same continuum. It's "drive" when we're training and "obsession" when we want to watch TV.


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## Oldnewbie

My female adapts her drive/energy to the temperature. She has high frisbee drive and medium ball drive. She has medium energy and doesn't NEED to catch everything if it is too hot out. There is a neighbor GSD with fanatical ball drive that will only stop when she trips over her tongue. My dog stands and looks at her and appears to think, "Now THAT's not a very smart dog!"


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## Castlemaid

Jaimie, to me, that is drive. But the question as to how much drive would be to see how much Kaiser will run after the ball or work and focus for the ball even if he is tired or in an unfamiliar and somewhat scary situation. Drive usually overcomes anxiety, fear, insecurity. Some dogs love their balls, but take them out of their comfort zone and they fall apart. Their drive is not enough to sustain them through the fear. 

Often people bring their young dogs to be evaluated at a Schutzhund club, and the dog is avoidant, won't chase the tug, or lets go as soon as it gets it. The consensus from the trainers would be: Not enough Drive. Person is enraged! Dog is PERFECT at home! Of course dog will act unsure in a new situation! But the truth is, that if the dog DID have drive, the new situation and the new people would not be enough to dampen the drive. 

Another aspect of drive is being able to sustain the drive. As many have mentioned, their dog would track or chase a ball until they dropped. One big issue I have with Keeta in training her through a full SchH title is that she does not sustain her drive over any lenth of time. If I can get her to run two or three blinds, that's it, she's pretty much done for the day. She can show a lot of drive (GREAT send out, for example), but if she can also loose interest and just stop trying.


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## martemchik

I don't think mine is the most driven, but he does love tennis balls. He can play with one for hours, but if I take it away he relaxes. I can only compare his drive to the ASLs at our GSD club, and compared to them he is psycotic and not just for tennis balls, but for anything that he decides he wants at that moment in time. They kind of just go with the flow but for me it is sometimes a challenge to snap him back into "training mode." I expect him to grow out of this as he is only 1.

From watching youtube I know my dog isn't close to as drivy as some Schz dogs but he has his moments, which I'm perfectly fine with.


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## gsdraven

Castlemaid said:


> Jaimie, to me, that is drive. But the question as to how much drive would be to see how much Kaiser will run after the ball or work and focus for the ball even if he is tired or in an unfamiliar and somewhat scary situation. Drive usually overcomes anxiety, fear, insecurity. Some dogs love their balls, but take them out of their comfort zone and they fall apart. Their drive is not enough to sustain them through the fear.


Thanks. This gives me something to think about.


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## Tbarrios333

Code:







Castlemaid said:


> Jaimie, to me, that is drive. But the question as to how much drive would be to see how much Kaiser will run after the ball or work and focus for the ball even if he is tired or in an unfamiliar and somewhat scary situation. Drive usually overcomes anxiety, fear, insecurity. Some dogs love their balls, but take them out of their comfort zone and they fall apart. Their drive is not enough to sustain them through the fear.


By your definition, Buzz would be very high drive then.



> The puppy on the other hand is WAY drivier (is that a word?). She will do ANYTHING and put up with whatever you throw at her for food. Shots, thermometer up her butt, big strange dogs near her, little dogs near her, kids near her, strange kids squeaking toys at her, stranger walking by her, new areas to work in. Nothing at all can remove her focus from a treat and/or training session. If I do lose her attention it's easy to get it back. Now Buzz is definitely flashy with the OB.


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## Chris Wild

There is more to drive than "high" or "low". There are different components to most drives, which will vary from dog to dog just as the drives themselves do, and thus will impact how that drive will be expressed.

First is threshold; how much stimulation is needed for the drive to activate.
Then is intensity; how strong and intense is the drive once activated.
Last, sustainability; how long will the drive last before it is exhausted.

One can have a dog with a low trigger threshold for a drive, let's say prey, and that dog will chase anything that moves even slightly. But he may not chase very intensely or for very long. 

Or you could have a dog with a high threshold that takes a lot to get going, but once engaged the dog shows a lot of intensity and will keep going forever.

Then there are dogs who have high intensity, but low sustainability, or lower intensity and high sustainability, or high intensity with high sustainability, or low intensity with low sustainability.

Which ones are "high drive" and which ones are "low drive"?
Is the dog who will chase at the drop of a hat, but halfheartedly, or who chases with intensity but fizzles out after 10 seconds, really a high drive dog as many would say? Is the dog who takes quite a bit to get engaged, but once engaged shows moderate intensity and almost infinite sustainability really low drive, as many would think?

And then there are the dogs who have a lot of energy, almost to the point of hyperactive, who are labled "high drive" and in many cases really have very little drive at all. What they do have is a weakness in nerve that leads to an inability to settle, physically or mentally, and constant expression of nervous, anxious energy.

As there are not just many drives, but many components to each drive that exists, I think it easier to truly understand any individual dog when one breaks those things down to smaller components and looks at each individually, and then step way back and looks at the whole picture together and how those individual drives and components of drive, as well as other facets of temperament, come together in the total dog, than to just try to lable a dog as "high this" and "low that".


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## Tbarrios333

Very informative post Chris, thanks.


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## Emoore

Tbarrios333 said:


> Very informative post Chris, thanks.


Yes, I've only heard thresholds referred to in relation to aggression or defense, but not toy or prey or play.


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## Anjulian

My boy seems to have medium/moderate energy as will play ball for half an hour or more,but will stop and lay down and rest for a minute/2 minutes.i used to make him rest when he was a pup, because he did not want to stop. Here's the thing though, if he can smell or hear running water,he will go to find it and forget the fetching and take the ball with him. Water overrides everything, he loses balls all the time because once he is in the water,all he wants to do is move the rocks around. I used to throw sticks and he would chase those in the water ,but I stopped using sticks quite a while back. Need to put a ball on a lunge line so it doesnt go floating down the river most days. I would say he has high drive for finding water, good dog to take into the desert with you. He has gone down a near sheer drop of about 100 feet to get to the river at the bottom that I didnt even know was there. What am i going to do with him ?


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## Oldnewbie

Anjulian said:


> My boy seems to have medium/moderate energy as will play ball for half an hour or more,but will stop and lay down and rest for a minute/2 minutes.i used to make him rest when he was a pup, because he did not want to stop. Here's the thing though, if he can smell or hear running water,he will go to find it and forget the fetching and take the ball with him. Water overrides everything, he loses balls all the time because once he is in the water,all he wants to do is move the rocks around. I used to throw sticks and he would chase those in the water ,but I stopped using sticks quite a while back. Need to put a ball on a lunge line so it doesnt go floating down the river most days. I would say he has high drive for finding water, good dog to take into the desert with you. He has gone down a near sheer drop of about 100 feet to get to the river at the bottom that I didnt even know was there. What am i going to do with him ?


!. Get him a wading pool
2. Say to him over and over: "You're not a lab, You're NOT a lab!"


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## GSD07

Great post, Chris, very helpful! Those drives are always a mystery  Now I'll try to re-assess Anton's drives. What kind of drive he would be deemed based on my description below?

Low energy, medium intensity, good sustainability (will track all day or will retrieve a toy for miles given that I keep throwing it for him). Not flashy in anything but very methodical when doing whatever asked. Can be flashy and enthusiastic when doing that he badly enjoys or when he learns something new (he craves new things). 

High threshold for object prey but very low for live prey. Very high suspicion thankfully paired with good judgment. Ability to be ready to counterattack any threat from the state of complete relaxation, and if the threat was deemed not worthy attention, ability to return to complete relaxation immediately (defense drive? this drive I have no clue since I never had a chance to test it except in daily life encounters). His balance is remarkable, I wish I could restore mine as quickly. 

Very high pack drive, high hunt drive (probably developed by my relaxed style tracking and 'runaways'), low to none food drive, works for praise and interaction and for the process itself (tracking but not obedience). Ok, what did I forget? 

Would love to hear your thoughts!


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## Freestep

GSD07 said:


> High threshold for object prey but very low for live prey.


Vinca is the same way. She'll chase a ball or carry around a plush toy, but seems to get bored with them quickly. Now, about CHICKENS... it's funny, but she completely ignored them when she was little. Granted, they were bigger than her when she first met them, but she wasn't afraid, wasn't even terribly curious, just gave them a glance in passing and then ignored them. That has definitely changed since she's gotten bigger. Let's just say we're trying to channel that live prey drive into herding.


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## G-burg

> And then there are the dogs who have a lot of energy, almost to the point of hyperactive, who are labled "high drive" and in many cases really have very little drive at all. What they do have is a weakness in nerve that leads to an inability to settle, physically or mentally, and constant expression of nervous, anxious energy.


I think these dogs also have a hard time focusing and channeling that energy (drive) into something positive or good.. It's more hectic.. Really what it comes down to is it's a waste of energy..


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## Lindsay01

Really informative post, thank you for explaining this. 

So what do you do to keep your "all over the place" inbred rescue GSD on the right route? 

I would like to read more books pertaining drives..and energy. Mine -get's waaay too stimulated far too quickly ..mine is part Mal and am trying to do my best to keep her busy, active and not bored but it's challenging. Is there a group in MD do you know that I could contact to try her at tracking or something equally challenging? 

I have not had much experience w Mals- mine is very sweet smart and has much drive- she wants to please you, but I don't know how to harness this. I have a very good trainer but had to take a hiatus as my dog was injured two months ago- 

Thank you.


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## Castlemaid

I don't know of any books that would specifically address this issues. I think most dog training/behaviour books are aimed at the average pet dog (a very different animal than a malinois/gsd mix!), and the books about using and training high-drive working dogs is aimed towards experienced dog handlers that already have an understanding and an appreciation of working drives and high energy. 

One thing you may look into is finding a Schutzhund club to work with. They can evaluate your dog's temperament and drive and see where it falls on the scale, and work with you to show you how to use and harness that drive and energy and focus it into productive activities. Some clubs are very open to helping others, and even if you are not interested in pursuing Schutzhund per se, or your dog does not have the temperament for the protection phase, you can still join and work on the obedience and tracking portions of Schutzhund, and even get titles in just those areas. 

Other clubs are more competition oriented and only accept members that will work in all three phases with the goal to compete, but some members may be willing to work with you privately outside the club. They will have the experience to guide you and show you how to work with a dog like yours, and how to see the crazy drives as a good thing.

Or just find a private trainer, but one that has experience with working dogs AND will work with you using positive reinforcement, and corrections when/where necessary. But corrections will come later when your pup is older and already has good solid training on him. Some private trainers with a working dog background (and some Schutzhund people) are heavy with compulsion and corrections, so check them out first.


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## Zisso

My first GSD had a play drive that would not stop, even in the most intense heat we get here in WA. It was over the frisbee. She would chase it, catch it, bring it back, wash it off in her water every time, then drop it at my feet and run out ahead to get it again. She would not stop unless I made her. If I happened to throw it wrong and say it landed on the roof, or over the fence she would do her best to figure out a way to get it back. I found myself many a time, going up on the roof to retrieve her frisbee so we could go in the house for a break because she would not come in until she had it. 

My current girl is much the same way...with any toy. We play and play and if it goes over the fence she is insistent on getting it back.However, she does not have the stamina to play relentlessly as my 1st girl did. I can see her slowing down after 20-30 minutes or so of playing and that is when I end the game. My boy will play until he is tired and when he is tired, he will go lay down on his own. Doesn't take much for either to bounce back and do it all over again, but they are so different from my 1st. 

My current girl also has a restlessness about her that I had never seen before. She always grabs a toy when they are out and will pace back and forth all over the yard with it. She will come up to me with it but if I reach out to get the toy to throw it for her she will turn away(lack of training as a pup to give it to me(I adopted her at 16months)) so she ends up pacing with the toy until she tires and goes to lay down. 

One other thing I have noticed about the two is that my boy will lay in the sun, tired and hot from play or not but my girl always finds shade to lay down in.

So I am curious if my current girl is displaying the kind of drive that is being discussed in this thread? To me it is more what G-Burg describes above, as hyperactive, less able to settle or channel the energy into something more positive.


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