# Starting TODAY!



## javamama (Jan 27, 2010)

My 5yo german shepherd suddenly seems to have aquired allergies. Until 3 weeks ago, we fed high quality kibble and she seemed to do okay more or less. The last one was EVO red meat, but when she reacted to it, we changed to several others with and without grain and I got confused. The point being, I don't know exactly what she reacted to!

SO, feeding raw made sense, but I was nervous to start, so we did 3 weeks on Nature's Variety Lamb formula. She likes it, her poop looks great  and her skin is healing, but no stunning results on her coat yet.

Today, rather than buying another expensive round of pre packaged stuff, I decided to take the leap!

My plan so far, please critique liberally, I'm still learning!

I found a great deal (I think) on chicken drumsticks 40# for 19.99, also some ground turkey, chicken breasts and chicken livers. I plan to build variety and resources, but that is what I can start with.

75# dog x 2.5% = 1.87lbs daily food

14oz RMB
13.4oz muscle meat
1.4oz OM

to start, I am going to measure daily servings and refreeze. I'm sure we will change methods as we go, but I am going for ease on a daily basis (I only have 1 dog, but 3 kids!)

To each meal, we may add an egg or salmon oil.....

Is this workable for a month or so when I can add a bit of variety? and hopefully find other resources in my area....


----------



## javamama (Jan 27, 2010)

my observations so far:
1. I am surprised how many chicken drumsticks it takes to make 14oz.

2. My dog doesn't seem to know what to do with the chicken legs. She crunched off the ends and burried the rest in the yard. I found only 1. Hope she ate the other one........

3. She hates chicken livers, next time I will cut it up smaller.

I am a little discouraged. I was hoping for an enthusiastic reception. But we will continue. Can anyone offer some advice, encouragement?


----------



## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

can i add my inexperienced 2 bit here? My Mia had SOOOOmany digestive problems early on that it was aggravating( we wont go in to all that now) shes now a yr and a half, started cooking lean ground beef for her, 1time mixed with her kibble and eves raw. now the raw saga is such= she will eat raw chicken legs/thighs but any other 'raw' like liver, hearts, beef bones lamb etc she wont touch, unless i boil them a very tiny bit! not bones ofcus but liver etc, then she seems to hv no prob! wierdo! atleast knock on wood her poops are healthy, and she just seems more healthy. even with her grund beef, nowadays i am keeping it half raw! good luck!


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

They'll eat almost anything if you hold out and don't make changes... even liver. I give my dog what's good for him, if he doesn't eat it, he goes hungry until it seems delicious.  He's very flexible now.


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

just a couple things....it is quite normal for a dog who has been kibble fed not to "know" what to do with things like chicken quarters. They need to be "shown" and learn how to eat believe it or not!....you may need to sit on the floor and break it apart slowly, the dog will quickly learn how to deal with the meat. Mine LUVS liver and any organ in fact, but I can say if the liver or kidney is too big, he is a bit weird about it, so just cut it smaller.....turkey wings (not drums) are a good option if you can get them....they are usually cheaper too....salmon or fish oil is great and will improve the coat (you may want to increase to 2 1000mg per meal until the coat improves), I feed 4-6 eggs per week and he luvs sardines, you can look at adding them down the road also. Allow the dog and the system adequate time to adjust to the new diet. Believe me, they prefer the raw meat, they just don't always know how to address new things!


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Gib Laut said:


> just a couple things....it is quite normal for a dog who has been kibble fed not to "know" what to do with things like chicken quarters. They need to be "shown" and learn how to eat believe it or not!....you may need to sit on the floor and break it apart slowly, the dog will quickly learn how to deal with the meat. Mine LUVS liver and any organ in fact, but I can say if the liver or kidney is too big, he is a bit weird about it, so just cut it smaller.....turkey wings (not drums) are a good option if you can get them....they are usually cheaper too....salmon or fish oil is great and will improve the coat (you may want to increase to 2 100mg per meal until the coat improves), I feed 4-6 eggs per week and he luvs sardines, you can look at adding them down the road also. Allow the dog and the system adequate time to adjust to the new diet. Believe me, they prefer the raw meat, they just don't always know how to address new things!


Sardines are great!! Give a few by hand at first, they'll become a favorite and they are full of omega 3s and protein.


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

sorry, realized I forgot to add, the burying is generally indicative of over feeding....mine only buried his when he came out of a growth spurts and his need for calories went back to normal, yet I was still feeding him more food.


----------



## javamama (Jan 27, 2010)

So maybe I will skip feeding her tonight so she is extra hungry tomorrow morning, then we'll have a little teaching session with the chicken bones.

Do you skin the chicken? I assumed she would gobble it up, but......

We do give salmon oil, I will check the milligrams.

Thanks everyone for your input! We will stick with this for a while. I am working on finding more variety/sources here in Utah. I found a beef butcher that might help, but I wasn't sure what to ask for. Hearts? Any bones to recommend or stick with ckn and trky necks. I found oxtail at the store but it was 4.99lb!


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

javamama said:


> So maybe I will skip feeding her tonight so she is extra hungry tomorrow morning, then we'll have a little teaching session with the chicken bones.
> 
> Do you skin the chicken? I assumed she would gobble it up, but......
> 
> ...


I'm not advocating skipping meals, what I meant was, if they don't eat it, feed them the same thing next time and do not change to accomadate. Turkey necks are great!! The dog should always have a meal, but I would feed the same thing next feeding if he/she doesn't eat it. You know what's best for the dog. Don't let the dog decide. Hunger will prevail.


----------



## javamama (Jan 27, 2010)

Oh, thanks. You're right, by tonight, having had a tiny breakfast she ought to be hungry enough. I wouldn't deliberately starve her, but maybe our calculations are off a bit. It is really hot here right now and so she is less active than usual. Even with kibble, she would have "hungry days" and days where she would just pick at her food. I suppose we can expect the same with this. I just really don't want chicken bones in my garden


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

actually many advocate fasting the dog once per week. Mine will fast himself and in fact is doing so today! We as humans don't follow their natural feeding schedules so their need for food will vary depending on environment and activity. Personally, I do not allow the consumption of RMB's without my supervision. No, I do not skin the chicken and never have needed to. Try leaving it on during teaching and see what happens. For beef, I feed heart and trim as MM, he gets beef liver and kidney for OM and soup/knuckle bones as his treats; I get oxtail fairly regular but that's b/c I get it right from the farmer so it's really cheap. But, pretty much I would give him whatever I can get! Can't wait to hear how it goes!!!!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chicken skin has beneficial nutrients. I would leave it on. You can feed the liver and chicken partially frozen so the dog won't feel the slime effect as much. My dogs will eat the OM more often when it is a bit frozen-fish, too.
Kacie will bury things and it has nothing to do with overfeeding, but that she doesn't like what was offered. Then another dog will dig it up...ick


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

javamama said:


> My 5yo german shepherd suddenly seems to have aquired allergies. Until 3 weeks ago, we fed high quality kibble and she seemed to do okay more or less. The last one was EVO red meat, but when she reacted to it, we changed to several others with and without grain and I got confused. The point being, I don't know exactly what she reacted to!
> 
> SO, feeding raw made sense, but I was nervous to start, so we did 3 weeks on Nature's Variety Lamb formula. She likes it, her poop looks great  and her skin is healing, but no stunning results on her coat yet.
> 
> ...


If you are going to go this route, you should add some fiber celery, apples, carrots, even fresh corn on the cob (slice it off). I would also get green tripe in the the dog at least a few times a week. Omas Pride dealers have green tripe at a good cost.

There are a few professional complete raw frozens that dont cost as much as the fancy pants ones at the local store. Oma's Pride dealers carry one called Performance Dog that is beef, green trip & fresh trachea that is well balanced and complete. It is very convenient and cost effective. It is a super food.

If you decide to go back to kibble or raw feeding doesn't help the allergies, try a catfish based food as it is highly unlikely your dog has been exposed to catfish.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Celery, corn, carrots, apples, green beans will just pass thru a dog if it isn't blended up, it is just a filler if fed chopped or whole. The digestive system is shorter in dogs so many things don't get digested as in humans.
Fresh(frozen)green tripe is a great addition, full of probiotics and natural digestive enzymes.
I feed it daily. There are many sources for it, I'd shop to compare prices in your location vs having it shipped if you can't buy it at a store.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Celery, corn, carrots, apples, green beans will just pass thru a dog if it isn't blended up, it is just a filler if fed chopped or whole. The digestive system is shorter in dogs so many things don't get digested as in humans.
> Fresh(frozen)green tripe is a great addition, full of probiotics and natural digestive enzymes.
> I feed it daily. There are many sources for it, I'd shop to compare prices in your location vs having it shipped if you can't buy it at a store.



Grate the vegetables or even steam them, not the apples though. I hate this term "filler" it is such an internet buzz word. These items are there for a reason to provide fiber and keep beneficial bacteria healthy. Every animal needs or seeks out fiber. Another idea is to buy apple pectin at the health food store.


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

sable123 said:


> Every animal needs or seeks out fiber.


True, but the carnivores need for fiber is very minimal...they would eat bark or grass.....too much is filler b/c it's not biologically appropriate; so it is filling the place of other foods that would be. Minimal amounts of some fruit and veg would be considered normal, though raw is best and pureed.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I never worry about or deliberately feed anything but raw MM, RMB and OM (other than his kibble). Apples, carrots, celery, etc. are for bunnies. He gets some of that in his grain free orijen anyway.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think all the information provided is great but can I just back up a bit.

First, you are dealing with a dog that has potential food allergies? You want to start with ONE protein at a time (without any fruit or veges) Start with a chicken quarter and some added chicken MM. Skip the OM for now. Keep her on just chicken for a week or two. Watch carefully for any itchiness, loose stool, etc. Then add the OM. I had to get tricky with the liver for Jax. I tried cooking it, freezing it, throwing it in the garbage and starting over. You might try cutting it up into small pieces and adding it to an egg.

The important thing is to add only one protein at a time. I don't feed Jax any vegetables except pumpkin (which is great fiber) on a regular basis. Occasionally, I give her some frozen blueberries or zucchini but she gets green tripe.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I think all the information provided is great but can I just back up a bit.
> 
> First, you are dealing with a dog that has potential food allergies? You want to start with ONE protein at a time (without any fruit or veges) Start with a chicken quarter and some added chicken MM. Skip the OM for now. Keep her on just chicken for a week or two. Watch carefully for any itchiness, loose stool, etc. Then add the OM. I had to get tricky with the liver for Jax. I tried cooking it, freezing it, throwing it in the garbage and starting over. You might try cutting it up into small pieces and adding it to an egg.
> 
> The important thing is to add only one protein at a time. I don't feed Jax any vegetables except pumpkin (which is great fiber) on a regular basis. Occasionally, I give her some frozen blueberries or zucchini but she gets green tripe.


Oh thats good then. They need fiber so just pick her fav's mine love celery stalks.

As for allergies, I know its fashionable to blame everything on food allergies but food allergies are rare. If you go that route of isolating a protein it will take longer than 1 - 2 weeks to know if you are in the clear. 

The best way to test for allergies is give her a protein she has never had and see how she reacts over about 4 - 6 weeks. That's why I mentioned catfish. Annamaet & Blackwood make a catfish kibble.

You can also try an ocean fish-based food like Zinpro.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The best way to test for allergies is to have a blood test run. The limited ingredient kibbles are pretty pricey and there are still way too many ingredients. I played around for almost 3 years with Onyx(rawfed from 6 months old) and then decided to have the Heska test run. She is not allergic to food, but highly allergic to dust mites and mold mites. (150 is the sensitive level, she was 3700+)
So you can play the food game, but really the $300 was worth it for me to finally know what she was itchy from.
We will start shots in a month or so when she is in the house more. Right now in summer she isn't so bad, because outside is much better for her.


----------



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

sable123 said:


> As for allergies, I know its fashionable to blame everything on food allergies but food allergies are rare.


 except that corn, soy and wheat (which are foods) are amongst the top food allergens in many dogs. Add to that beef, chicken and fish, though sometimes only in cooked forms; I could go on. Food allergies are real and lots also have environmental allergens that may or may not cross react. My experience is that it can take 4-6 months for an allergen to leave the dogs system and that sensitivities to raw meats are less likely.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I think all the information provided is great but can I just back up a bit.
> 
> First, you are dealing with a dog that has potential food allergies? You want to start with ONE protein at a time (without any fruit or veges) Start with a chicken quarter and some added chicken MM. Skip the OM for now. Keep her on just chicken for a week or two. Watch carefully for any itchiness, loose stool, etc. Then add the OM. I had to get tricky with the liver for Jax. I tried cooking it, freezing it, throwing it in the garbage and starting over. You might try cutting it up into small pieces and adding it to an egg.
> 
> The important thing is to add only one protein at a time. I don't feed Jax any vegetables except pumpkin (which is great fiber) on a regular basis. Occasionally, I give her some frozen blueberries or zucchini but she gets green tripe.


I think your point may have been misunderstood a little. It's a very good point, by the way! What Jax08 is saying is, try one PROTEIN at a time AND don't feed things like CELERY and other products that may cause a seperate allergy that has nothing to do with the protein. This is process of elimination. Keep as many variables out as you can. Chicken meat only, for several days. No issues, great! Beef only, for a few days... so on ad so forth. Once you find out what basic proteins are not a problem, you can start adding the rabbit food.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

javamama said:


> I am a little discouraged. I was hoping for an enthusiastic reception. But we will continue. Can anyone offer some advice, encouragement?


Kibble, even the good ones, are not appeasing to dogs until they spray FAT on it after the cooking process. They must make it SMELL good to the dog or no dog would ever eat it. Except my boy Tazer, a Cocker Spaniel. He eats paper. He's weird. 

So, now you give your dog (who is used to strong, good smelling food) a piece of raw meat. Hold up a piece of fresh raw meat to your nose and inhale. Smell anything? Not really (at least not compared to the kibble).

Raw meat has little aroma so dogs new to raw feeding may balk at first.

I tell people to let the dog miss a meal when they plan to switch. A hungry dog (like a hungry child) is more likely to try something new! 

As to the burying the food - there's no reason the dog has to move away from their dish to eat. All 6 of mine eat in the kitchen. They each have their spot and no-one leaves their spot until they are finished eating. It's a matter of training.

Your amounts sound good for a starting point but remember, every dog is different. 2.5% might not be enough for your dog. Or too much. Watch her weight and adjust the amounts accordingly.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> If you are going to go this route, you should add some fiber celery, apples, carrots, even fresh corn on the cob (slice it off).


I would not use any vegetables to start. Heck, my dogs haven't had any veggies in years! Spike is going on 9 months and Mauser is coming up on 2 years and they NEVER eats veggies (not as a staple part of his diet).

Fresh green tripe is the only 'green' food my dogs eat on a regular basis.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I would not use any vegetables to start. Heck, my dogs haven't had any veggies in years! Spike is going on 9 months and Mauser is coming up on 2 years and they NEVER eats veggies (not as a staple part of his diet).
> 
> Fresh green tripe is the only 'green' food my dogs eat on a regular basis.


 
Green tripe is a must. I am lucky to get pastured lamb and goat tripe with minimal rinsing for just tip money. I still believe that there are certain foods that should be part of a raw feeding program. Namely good quality corn a few times a week. I make polenta squares and freeze them. When gelatinized ground corn is almost completely digestible and is one of the best foods for coat quality.

If you have a hard keeper or dog in training its a good dense food to feed.


----------



## javamama (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks guys! Good news is she ate her dinner last night, bones and all. I am so relieved since we have 40# of the stuff all packaged up! It took some time yesterday, but I have 2 weeks of individual meals packaged, and then the rest of the bones portioned into 2-3 days worth.

Allergies, I'm not 100% sure she has allergies, but she's always been a slightly itchy dog and getting her coat to look nice has never been easy. It seems like we would just get things good and she would start to refuse her food. But the final straw really did look like a true allergy. Inflamed ears and a bunch of hot spots, fur falling out in clumps. Vet ran bloodwork to rule out a bunch of stuff and it was all negative. He recommended some prescription food and that's where I decided this is a better way to go.
Lauri, it was your site that gave me the confidence to go really basic for this first month, let her settle down. Hopefully she does not react to chicken and we can guild a more complete diet from here. I will be sure to add green tripe right away though. I can see adding occasional veggies, I think she might like variety sometimes??
Thanks again! I'm going to hurry and take some "before" pictures to post (she's not at her worst, I hope we never go there again!)


----------

