# Growling at my son



## UniSPheryk (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi everyone. 

Looking for some advice. 
We have an 18 month old GSD, intact male, living with us since he was 8 weeks old. He has always been very docile with everyone in the family and spends most of his days with my wife and 9 yr old son, and loves playing and going on walks with them. They have been involved with training since the beginning and both feed him frequently to strengthen the bond. 
However, recently we had two episodes in which he started growling at my son for no apparent reason. Both of these happened while the dog was laying down but awake and perfectly aware someone was approaching (not a case he has been startled). The most recent one happened just now while I was petting the dog and my son approached at walking speed and the dog was aware of his presence since he got in the room. When my son got closer the dog locked his stare on him and started growling. No food or toys in immediate vicinity. Not very loud and no barking, but a clear growl. 
I can’t imagine what has changed and I’m getting apprehensive with this situation. 
Any ideas on what I can do to stop this behaviour, or what might be triggering the dog?

Any help very much appreciated.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like he's resource guarding you.You absolutely can't allow it. I'm about to sign off now so I'm sure others will chime in shortly. If you put "resource guarding" in the search box you can read more about it if you'd like.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In case of resource guarding: as soon as you see the stare, get up, ignore and leave with your son. He is not regarding your son as his leader so this is what they often do to each other. The dog needs to learn that your son is your possession. If he approaches you and your son, step in between the two, facing the dog with your back. That's how they protect resources from each other.
On another note, could there have been an issue between the two that you are not aware of? I would ask your son in a non-confrontational way if the dog could have misunderstood your son's behavior (using tact)


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Quick question, how exactly did you respond to each episode?


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## UniSPheryk (Feb 24, 2021)

Thank you very much. Just talked with my son and he doesn't remember anything. I'm fairly positive he would tell me he he knew. When they play together it can get a bit rough with tug and some chasing and all that, but nothing that I would imagine to be perceived as threat by the dog. We came out of a large park just after (not dog park) where we were running around a bit and throwing a few balls and they were the best of friends.
I'm more thinking in line with resource guarding, and will definitely try your suggestions. Would collar corrections help at all if I see him staring or start growling, or do I risk making it worse?


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Does he understand look or ignore? Give a command he knows that would require him to break the focus and then correct for not following the command. You don't want to create a negative association with your son. 

We taught ours ignore, which means quit focusing and look away.


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## UniSPheryk (Feb 24, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Quick question, how exactly did you respond to each episode?


First episode happened with my wife, so I can't give details. On this second time, I was kneeling by the dog petting him, and as soon as the growling started my son stopped, dog got a very firm no, and I held to his collar with my hand, just in case he would lunge. Then I asked my son to continue walking and pass by us without petting him. Everybody stayed in the room. After some minutes I took him to his crate.
Anything I should have done differently?


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## UniSPheryk (Feb 24, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> Does he understand look or ignore? Give a command he knows that would require him to break the focus and then correct for not following the command. You don't want to create a negative association with your son.
> 
> We taught ours ignore, which means quit focusing and look away.


He gets leave it, but for objects. "watch me" could work.

Would intensifying the training with my son help at all, with me correcting if he doesn't follow the command?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

UniSPheryk said:


> First episode happened with my wife, so I can't give details. On this second time, I was kneeling by the dog petting him, and as soon as the growling started my son stopped, dog got a very firm no, and I held to his collar with my hand, just in case he would lunge. Then I asked my son to continue walking and pass by us without petting him. Everybody stayed in the room. After some minutes I took him to his crate.
> Anything I should have done differently?


The "No" should have been followed up with a very stern correction. You have to increase your obedience training with this dog and have zero tolerance for inappropriate aggression. You are fortunate that your son did not get bit. Growling leads to biting and your dog won a second battle in his mind. Holding the dog by the collar is a technique that we use to increase aggression, not extinguish it. In addition to upping your obedience, you need to be much stricter with this dog. You should look into NILF or "Nothing in life is free." Your dog has to earn every privilege, even praise and treats. Your dog is an adolescent and is is starting to mature, with this maturity comes increased aggression if not managed properly. I will add that some may advise you to neuter the dog, IMHO neutering will not fix this or do anything to manage this dog. Neutering will not change your dog's behavior and temperament is often worse after neutering. 

I would get with a good trainer that understands aggressive dogs and is not afraid to work with a potentially aggressive dog. If this was my dog he would be wearing a prong collar and not the choke chain he has on in the picture. I would work on sit / stay, down / stay under distractions. If he knows the knows the stay command correct him very sternly for breaking it. Probably, on a magnitude of 4-5 times harder than you think you should. I would make him sit and wait for his meals. Put the food bowl down and stand straight up. He has to sit and watch you or your son until he is released to eat. I would work up to a couple of minutes starting from a couple of seconds. Everything with this dog must be black and white, there are no grey areas. The dog gets petted / praised when he performs a command correctly, he gets treats when he performs a command correctly. He should never be petted or praised for doing nothing or being cute. This may sound harsh, but trust me he has gotten way to affection for nothing and now he feels he deserves it. In a few months if the growling has stopped and he hasn't bitten anyone you can let up a little. 

It seems to me he doesn't respect your son and is not concerned about you being upset with him. This is very doable but will take some time and serious training. Left alone this will get much worse. He is a beautiful dog, he just needs a family of strong consistent leaders.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The dog achieved success when he remained by your side while your son walked on by.He accomplished exactly what he wanted. Getting up and moving away would leave him with nothing to guard,which is better. A firm No! and sending the dog to his place is good too.
That's not a criticism! You did great by showing displeasure and making sure your son was safe.NILF as Slamdunc mentioned is a very good suggestion to implement.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

UniSPheryk said:


> He gets leave it, but for objects. "watch me" could work.
> 
> Would intensifying the training with my son help at all, with me correcting if he doesn't follow the command?


Your son can do a lot of training with out having to give any corrections. You and your son could teach the dog "impulse control" or "capping." Your son could withhold rewards until the dog is correct. A 9 year old will not be able to correct an 18 month of dog like this. You correcting the dog for son could make things worse unless you are an experienced handler. You need to absolute control over the dog and your obedience should include praise and reward when correct and stern consequences (corrections) for disobedience. As I said in the earlier post, everything must be black and white. If you tell the dog to sit for example (_*and he has been trained what "sit" means), *_he gets 2 seconds to sit. Or down or come, whatever the command is. If he hasn't started to sit within 2 seconds he is disobeying and receives a correction and is made to sit. Do not give the dog any longer than 2 seconds, my dogs get 1.5 seconds. DO NOT REPEAT the command, simply make him do it. Do not say Sit, Sit, Sit, I told you to sit and on the 6th command he finally does it. That is not dog training and not how dogs should respond to commands they are trained to do. 

As far as the look goes, I would give a very stern "NO, KNOCK IT OFF" at the first sign of the look before the dog even growled. I would then make the dog sit and down several times and reward those correct behaviors. The look is the trigger and the growl will come next. Again, I would correct very strongly for the growl. A good correction is one the dog remembers today, tomorrow, next week and 2 months from now. He should want to think twice before every growling at a member of your family again. Owning a dog like this can be a great thing, but it takes a very strong owner to make the situation better. A weak handler will make this situation way worse.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> The "No" should have been followed up with a very stern correction. You have to increase your obedience training with this dog and have zero tolerance for inappropriate aggression. You are fortunate that your son did not get bit. Growling leads to biting and your dog won a second battle in his mind. Holding the dog by the collar is a technique that we use to increase aggression, not extinguish it. In addition to upping your obedience, you need to be much stricter with this dog. You should look into NILF or "Nothing in life is free." Your dog has to earn every privilege, even praise and treats. Your dog is an adolescent and is is starting to mature, with this maturity comes increased aggression if not managed properly. I will add that some may advise you to neuter the dog, IMHO neutering will not fix this or do anything to manage this dog. Neutering will not change your dog's behavior and temperament is often worse after neutering.
> 
> I would get with a good trainer that understands aggressive dogs and is not afraid to work with a potentially aggressive dog. If this was my dog he would be wearing a prong collar and not the choke chain he has on in the picture. I would work on sit / stay, down / stay under distractions. If he knows the knows the stay command correct him very sternly for breaking it. Probably, on a magnitude of 4-5 times harder than you think you should. I would make him sit and wait for his meals. Put the food bowl down and stand straight up. He has to sit and watch you or your son until he is released to eat. I would work up to a couple of minutes starting from a couple of seconds. Everything with this dog must be black and white, there are no grey areas. The dog gets petted / praised when he performs a command correctly, he gets treats when he performs a command correctly. He should never be petted or praised for doing nothing or being cute. This may sound harsh, but trust me he has gotten way to affection for nothing and now he feels he deserves it. In a few months if the growling has stopped and he hasn't bitten anyone you can let up a little.
> 
> It seems to me he doesn't respect your son and is not concerned about you being upset with him. This is very doable but will take some time and serious training. Left alone this will get much worse. He is a beautiful dog, he just needs a family of strong consistent leaders.


This was great 👍🏼


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## Furbaby's Mum (7 mo ago)

Slamdunc said:


> far as the look goes, I would give a very stern "NO, KNOCK IT OFF" at the first sign of the look before the dog even growled. I would then make the dog sit and down several times and reward those correct behaviors. The look is the trigger and the growl will come next. Again, I would correct very strongly for the growl. A good correction is one the dog remembers today, tomorrow, next week and 2 months from now. He should want to think twice before every growling at a member of your family again. Owning a dog like this can be a great thing, but it takes a very strong owner to make the situation better. A weak handler will make this situation way worse.


You correct some strong dogs for growl and it will trigger fight. Not saying that is the case with this dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Furbaby's Mum said:


> You correct some strong dogs for growl and it will trigger fight. Not saying that is the case with this dog.


Then up the correction.
Depends on the reason, but growling at a family member is a non-starter.

I had a male Rottie that would come up the leash. He could be corrected when he knew that it was fair. Not everyone would want to try it. They're not fur babies.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

While I don’t believe in putting strict rules in place like Slam described here, I do think this situation sounds like a dog that’s needs to be shown the error of his ways. A hard stare that I knew was going to lead to an attack, I would come off the top rope to let him know is unacceptable. I wouldn’t allow any unsupervised interactions. I would be ready to respond at all times while they were together until I knew it was under control. I also will say the dog might be better off in a different home.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> Then up the correction.
> Depends on the reason, but growling at a family member is a non-starter.
> 
> I had a male Rottie that would come up the leash. He could be corrected when he knew that it was fair. Not everyone would want to try it. They're not fur babies.


The thing is if you put yourself in a position to fight the dog, you need to make sure you are in position to win that fight.


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## Furbaby's Mum (7 mo ago)

WNGD said:


> Then up the correction.
> Depends on the reason, but growling at a family member is a non-starter.
> 
> I had a male Rottie that would come up the leash. He could be corrected when he knew that it was fair. Not everyone would want to try it. They're not fur babies.


If you pick a fight just be prepared to win is all. Be smart and set yourself up for success.

Although, there are some dogs who won't submit to such corrections and you'll have to be more creative in order to not live a life of constant conflict.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> While I don’t believe in putting strict rules in place like Slam described here, I do think this situation sounds like a dog that’s needs to be shown the error of his ways. A hard stare that I knew was going to lead to an attack, I would come off the top rope to let him know is unacceptable. I wouldn’t allow any unsupervised interactions. I would be ready to respond at all times while they were together until I knew it was under control. I also will say the dog might be better off in a different home.


Agreed. You growl/stare down/snap at my child, or any child, in my world and you are going to get a "come to Jesus" correction that leaves NO doubt in your little doggie brain that it is absolutely your last day on earth if it happens again. 
This is one of those things that is the lesser of two evils. This is not a time for owners to be sensitive or forgiving. Dogs that bite kids end up dead or worse, and kids that get bit, well that's just bad. So one well timed, memorable correction and everyone is the better for it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The only time I've corrected a dog with a prong so hard that it yelped was when a female I'd rescued with known dog aggression issues lunged at another dog.

She remembered it - I eventually managed to get her CGC!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The dog growled but didn't lunge or bite. So with the help of a good trainer, forget the positive only, treating training it cold work. But you have to take this seriously. At least he warned. I would not punish the warning or he may resort to bite right away. I assume the dog has gotten away when he was still so cute and lovable. Their brains are wired to climb the ladder,.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I agree firm corrections are very much needed at times especially with younger dogs, and if you do them right they’ll remember well into adulthood and you won’t be fighting a 90lb+ dog later on. I’m curious what type of corrections people use, I know people aren’t always comfortable discussing these things on here, but if anyone is I’d appreciate it just so I know the corrections I would give or have given aren’t revving the dog up or sending the wrong signals.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> While I don’t believe in putting strict rules in place like Slam described here, I do think this situation sounds like a dog that’s needs to be shown the error of his ways. A hard stare that I knew was going to lead to an attack, I would come off the top rope to let him know is unacceptable. I wouldn’t allow any unsupervised interactions. I would be ready to respond at all times while they were together until I knew it was under control. I also will say the dog might be better off in a different home.


When a pet family owns a dog like this rules have to be in place. Dogs like this respond to strong leadership and consistency. That applies pretty much to all dogs. I don't know but I assuming you work a dog in sport? The 2 second rule is pretty standard for a competitive dogs or working dog. It works just as well with pet dogs. IF a dog hasn't started to sit within 2 seconds of being the command the dog is probably not going to do it. It is a fairly straight forward dog training principle, not strict just a way to have control and order with the dogs we live with. Also, we are giving advice to people on the internet where we haven't seen the dog, how they handle the dog or how the dog will respond. Growling at a family member, especially a child is inappropriate for any dog. Even more so for an 18 month old GSD. "Coming of the top rope" is ok for someone that knows how to handle an aggressive dog, and I do not disagree with that. 95% of the people on dog forums do not have aggressive dogs nor have they ever had to correct a dog willing to bite. Many would not be able or willing to snatch up an 80 lb GSD and handle the dog with out getting seriously hurt. Fortunately, the vast percentage of GSD's are not willing to seriously fight or want to bite a person for real. 

I completely agree with not having any unsupervised interactions. It also goes with out saying that the owner needs to be ready to respond at all times until this is resolved. Being ready to respond at all times is how my daily routine is, it becomes second nature. The dog I am working now is relatively easy compared to my previous working dogs, he is probably the most social dog I have worked to date. Yet, I am constantly evaluating his body language and temperament when I am out in public with him. Accidental bites in my line of work are not a good thing. This is what this owner will need to do, be constantly vigilant when dealing with this dog. 

To be clear, this is not a one and done situation. One really effective correction will not fix this problem forever. This is a situation that will re occur with out proper maintenance and ownership / handling.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> At least he warned. I would not punish the warning or he may resort to bite right away.


I had always heard not to punish the warning like wolf dog said. A warning growl is better than a sudden and unexpected bite. But I am far from being an expert.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Carter Smith it very much depends on the individual dog's temperment what correction is needed to make things clear to him/her.For instance a dog that tends to be very sensitive or timid could feel so threatened and afraid of a hard correction that he could get worse. Feeling defensive and needing to protect himself. A hard confident dog that wants to be in charge needs to understand that he does not make the decisions, the "boss" does.
I think the disagreements start when people don't take temperment variations into account or assume that since they've owned two or more GSDs in the past that they are all about the same. I've owned five and they've all had some similarities and also some distinct differences.None of them were resource guarders though I've had a couple of other breeds that were.They each required a different approach.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> The thing is if you put yourself in a position to fight the dog, you need to make sure you are in position to win that fight.


No worries on my end.

If you have the right relationship with even a serious dog, respect will win the day. That's just my experience, others have had much different dogs perhaps. That Rottie was a buck twenty and plenty serious. I had a Rottie bitch at the time too at a time when very few people even knew what the breed even was and way before they got popular.

But if my dog growled or bit at my kid or granddaughter, he'd be reminded of the pecking order in a hot second; if he wanted to take it to a fight, there'd be a fight he wouldn't forget. I just highly doubt it would go there with the dogs I've owned.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> Agreed. You growl/stare down/snap at my child, or any child, in my world and you are going to get a "come to Jesus" correction that leaves NO doubt in your little doggie brain that it is absolutely your last day on earth if it happens again.
> This is one of those things that is the lesser of two evils. This is not a time for owners to be sensitive or forgiving. Dogs that bite kids end up dead or worse, and kids that get bit, well that's just bad. So one well timed, memorable correction and everyone is the better for it.


Perhaps that's how I should say it


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

We haven't discussed enough trying to figure out the reason for the growl if there was one or if that's possible. 
That's at least as important as how to correct the dog. Take away the stimulus/reason.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> The dog growled but didn't lunge or bite. So with the help of a good trainer, forget the positive only, treating training it cold work. But you have to take this seriously. At least he warned. I would not punish the warning or he may resort to bite right away. I assume the dog has gotten away when he was still so cute and lovable. Their brains are wired to climb the ladder,.


This is what came to mind for me. If you punish the growl, you could end up with a dog that goes straight for the bite without warning. I would think you’d want to address why the dog is giving a warning in a situation that is inappropriate. If the growl is a result of resource guarding, address the resource guarding. I’m not a trainer so these are just my thoughts.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> No worries on my end.
> 
> If you have the right relationship with even a serious dog, respect will win the day. That's just my experience, others have had much different dogs perhaps. That Rottie was a buck twenty and plenty serious. I had a Rottie bitch at the time too at a time when very few people even knew what the breed even was and way before they got popular.
> 
> But if my dog growled or bit at my kid or granddaughter, he'd be reminded of the pecking order in a hot second; if he wanted to take it to a fight, there'd be a fight he wouldn't forget. I just highly doubt it would go there with the dogs I've owned.


You have to know your strengths, If Gus had come at me in full fight mode, I’d have been in trouble. Not all dogs are equal.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Rosebud99 said:


> I had always heard not to punish the warning like wolf dog said. A warning growl is better than a sudden and unexpected bite. But I am far from being an expert.


It doesn't mean you ignore a growl. It is powerful information to you from the dog that things are way out of line. Immediately apply the NILIF treatment and be strict, fair and consistent. Remember that he was successful when you told your son to walk away. They have a good memory.
If you do things right you will probably be ok. But now you have seen his intention. That means: no rough play, no tug no hugging and never have him be alone with the kid. He is not your furry sweetie like you saw him at 8 weeks. For new owners: treat your pups like the adult you want them to be. The only cute thing about a pup is the looks. But they are wired to grow up and they watch us to see what their opportunities are to get to the top. I think that's where the foundation for this problem lies .
PS: sorry for the annoying spelling checks earlier.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> This is what came to mind for me. If you punish the growl, you could end up with a dog that goes straight for the bite without warning. I would think you’d want to address why the dog is giving a warning in a situation that is inappropriate. If the growl is a result of resource guarding, address the resource guarding. I’m not a trainer so these are just my thoughts.


I think you address both. 
But no way I'm letting the growl go without communication or you've default allowed it


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> You have to know your strengths, If Gus had come at me in full fight mode, I’d have been in trouble. Not all dogs are equal.


That's why I stress it's just my experience. If a dog comes at you in full flight mode as in prepared to take you to the ground, you have other issues to worry about than how to correct a wayward growl. If you're afraid to correct your dog and deal with the consequences when necessary, it's not the dog for you imo. Were you ever afraid of Gus? Not respectful of his potential but afraid? I'd guess not.

As Slam said, none of us can see the specific dog or the situation in which it lives or the handler skills or a myriad of other things.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> I think you address both.
> But no way I'm letting the growl go without communication or you've default allowed it


Aside from the growl which is the dog’s only way to tell you what is happening is not ok with the dog, what did this dog do wrong?
Seems like a fine line, correct the growl and in this situation may be resource guarding, it will continue because the resource guarding is not being addressed. The dog will either continue growling when guarding the owner or, stop growling which may lead to a bite without warning as the reason for the growl has no been dealt with.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’m not entering the corrections discussion and whether that’s right for this dog and this situation. But if it’s resource gauarding, you should consider teaching the dog where to put the energy. Kid approaches, tell the dog to get a toy. 
Calm but forceful “knock it off, go get a toy” eventually turns into the dog feeling jealous and then getting a toy himself.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> Aside from the growl which is the dog’s only way to tell you what is happening is not ok with the dog, what did this dog do wrong?
> Seems like a fine line, correct the growl and in this situation may be resource guarding, it will continue because the resource guarding is not being addressed. The dog will either continue growling when guarding the owner or, stop growling which may lead to a bite without warning as the reason for the growl has no been dealt with.


I can't repeat it any other way:
Address both (of course you want to discern the reason) but I'm not letting that growl slip while I try to decide if it's resource guarding or him trying to assert his own pecking order or maybe he's not feeling well or there's a chew toy nearby or I can't figure out why and never will....


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> I can't repeat it any other way:
> Address both (of course you want to discern the reason) but I'm not letting that growl slip while I try to decide if it's resource guarding or him trying to assert his own pecking order or maybe he's not feeling well or there's a chew toy nearby or I can't figure out why and never will....


Without being in the house to observe, it is difficult to know what the cause is. More experienced people would be able to identify quickly and go from there. We are making guesses for the OP.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> Without being in the house to observe, it is difficult to know what the cause is. More experienced people would be able to identify quickly and go from there. We are making guesses for the OP.


Absolutely. I thought I'd been very clear on that several times.

"That's why I stress it's just my experience. 
As Slam said, none of us can see the specific dog or the situation in which it lives or the handler skills or a myriad of other things."


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> Absolutely. I thought I'd been very clear on that several times.
> 
> "That's why I stress it's just my experience.
> As Slam said, none of us can see the specific dog or the situation in which it lives or the handler skills or a myriad of other things."


I don’t know what the right direction would be for the OP. I don’t have a ton of experience with training so my posts are more about what my instincts would be which may be right or wrong. I’d be curious about how David Winners would do.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> I don’t know what the right direction would be for the OP. I don’t have a ton of experience with training so my posts are more about what my instincts would be which may be right or wrong. I’d be curious about how David Winners would do.


Same as anyone, you can't say definitively without a ton more information we can't get from an online post.
You can give generalities from your own experience. David would be able to give better advice after probing a bit more but still not complete.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Maybe OP figured it out since he isn’t posting anymore


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Agreed. You growl/stare down/snap at my child, or any child, in my world and you are going to get a "come to Jesus" correction that leaves NO doubt in your little doggie brain that it is absolutely your last day on earth if it happens again.
> This is one of those things that is the lesser of two evils. This is not a time for owners to be sensitive or forgiving. Dogs that bite kids end up dead or worse, and kids that get bit, well that's just bad. So one well timed, memorable correction and everyone is the better for it.


I’m not saying it’s always the answer. Sometimes kids need to see the consequences of their actions. Especially when they are being little jerks. I certainly learned some lessons that way. I do say you should always look at the cause of the aggression. This kid doesn’t sound like he’s in the wrong, it sounds like the dog trying to push the kid around. I agree that in an overall since the dog biting a kid is the worse case scenario. Doesn’t work out well for anyone, especially the dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Slamdunc said:


> When a pet family owns a dog like this rules have to be in place. Dogs like this respond to strong leadership and consistency. That applies pretty much to all dogs. I don't know but I assuming you work a dog in sport? The 2 second rule is pretty standard for a competitive dogs or working dog. It works just as well with pet dogs. IF a dog hasn't started to sit within 2 seconds of being the command the dog is probably not going to do it. It is a fairly straight forward dog training principle, not strict just a way to have control and order with the dogs we live with.


I do train my dogs in sport work, along with some other stuff. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I was in particular referring to NILIF. I think it gives a good frame of reference and structure for someone who doesn’t know how to set boundaries and leadership with their dog or is struggling with it without making it super confrontational. It seems a bit joyless you me, which is why I don’t do it. It does seem like a good suggestion for this family. The 2 second rule is more of a general obedience thing. Competition wise, it’s different, but that’s a different discussion from this one. 2 seconds is a good time frame outside of that though.


Slamdunc said:


> I completely agree with not having any unsupervised interactions. It also goes with out saying that the owner needs to be ready to respond at all times until this is resolved. Being ready to respond at all times is how my daily routine is, it becomes second nature. The dog I am working now is relatively easy compared to my previous working dogs, he is probably the most social dog I have worked to date. Yet, I am constantly evaluating his body language and temperament when I am out in public with him. Accidental bites in my line of work are not a good thing. This is what this owner will need to do, be constantly vigilant when dealing with this dog.
> 
> To be clear, this is not a one and done situation. One really effective correction will not fix this problem forever. This is a situation that will re occur with out proper maintenance and ownership / handling.


This I agree with completely.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> It seems a bit joyless you me, which is why I don’t do it.


Same here.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm cautious to give anything but general advice. In my opinion, a hard, rank dog is going to get snatched up and put in their place. A nervous dog that is just throwing signals that they are uncomfortable is going to get some desensitization with a lot of rewards around the trigger with some OB thrown in. The reverse training for either dog is a huge mistake.

The absolute hardest thing to get owners to do is be consistent, all day, everyday. Paying attention and consistently rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior goes a long way towards having a great dog. Add in a ton of OB reps and you have the tools to get what you want with most dogs.

The 2 second rule is 1 second with my dogs, and working dogs I train, but I don't hammer dogs for slow compliance. Just a verbal or little poke with some social pressure. I think this builds the habit of immediate response. I also reward immediate response every time. The rewards are big for a long time. 

Without seeing how this dog is with the owner, I have no idea where to start other than living with the dog properly. I kind of do NILIF, but with much more play than I think most people incorporate into their life with their dogs.


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## Pb57 (Aug 14, 2021)

Just curious what are the dogs lines?


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## Furbaby's Mum (7 mo ago)

Slamdunc said:


> Fortunately, the vast percentage of GSD's are not willing to seriously fight or want to bite a person for real.


I love your posts Slamdunc. I just wanted to say that I think your statement I quoted is directed at OP being fortunate. Because, I believe it is very unfortunate that most German Shepherds are not willing to fight or bite for real thus defying the breed standard.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Furbaby's Mum said:


> I love your posts Slamdunc. I just wanted to say that I think your statement I quoted is directed at OP being fortunate. Because, I believe it is very unfortunate that most German Shepherds are not willing to fight or bite for real thus defying the breed standard.


Thank you!

Dogs have been domestic for thousands of years and selective breeding has bred a lot of working ability out of dogs. You can still find GSD's that want to work and are suitable for all kinds of work. Owning a dog that will bite or is aggressive can be a big liability and needs to be managed properly. 

My current Dual Purpose Patrol / Narcotics K9 is a GSD. I got him in October and certified with him in Patrol and Narcotics in March. He is a very nice dog, very social but does turn on. He's a little more low key than I'm used to, but is still a high drive dog. He is an excellent tracking / trailing dog and will bite a bad guy that he finds at the end of the track. He is super easy to work, very biddable and easy to handle. I guess I was due for an easy to train and handle dog. He wasn't my first choice but the longer I have him the more I like him.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Dogs have been domestic for thousands of years and selective breeding has bred a lot of working ability out of dogs. You can still find GSD's that want to work and are suitable for all kinds of work. Owning a dog that will bite or is aggressive can be a big liability and needs to be managed properly.
> 
> My current Dual Purpose Patrol / Narcotics K9 is a GSD. I got him in October and certified with him in Patrol and Narcotics in March. He is a very nice dog, very social but does turn on. He's a little more low key than I'm used to, but is still a high drive dog. He is an excellent tracking / trailing dog and will bite a bad guy that he finds at the end of the track. He is super easy to work, very biddable and easy to handle. I guess I was due for an easy to train and handle dog. He wasn't my first choice but the longer I have him the more I like him.


I like this


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

I wish you and your family the best. Seems like you're pro active and trying to figure out what went wrong. Maybe the dog is jealous of your son and reacted with a growl. Really who knows an 18 month old gsds mind. But if your gut tells you the dog is warning you he'll bite, then re home him to someone you think will provide the dog with a good home and lots and lots of training. 
Otherwise, you will be worried about what may happen. It's not worth the stress. It's ok you did nothing wrong. German Shepherds are an incredible breed and have different personalities as well, regardless of all the training they receive. Good luck in whatever you decide. It's your decision no one else's.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> I guess I was due for an easy to train and handle dog.


It's nice to have a nice dog that still has everything to get the job done. You deserve it


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

David Winners said:


> It's nice to have a nice dog that still has everything to get the job done. You deserve it


David, thank you! 

He is a really nice dog to work and he is very social. I do work on building drive and he is a high drive dog. I just have to wake him up when I take him out of the car. Then he goes right to task. He is sufficiently hard, just not an over the top crazy Dutch Shepherd. His first night on the street I've gotten my biggest dope busts on simple traffic stops. Not DEA, HSI or Narcotics unit tips, just patrol guys pulling cars. First car had 9.5 ounces of meth, 600 fentanyl pills, and 900 adrenal pills. An hour later I responded to a suspicious vehicle made contact with the driver, brief interview and my dog alerts to the car. That car had 28 ounces of meth, scales, packaging materials and was linked to the cartels. That is just under a kilo of cocaine, packaged in one ounce bags. Those cases are going Federal. Boss, the new GSD, in just a couple of months has gotten numerous guns and lots of meth, cocaine and heroin in other traffic stops. Each time I have to wake him up to get him out of the car. I'm not sure he likes how I drive and curls up like a cat to avoid being bounced around in my car. 2 1/2 months on the street and I am still shaking my head. He is crushing it and I'm not going to over think it.


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

not sure if this was mentioned, but dogs in the wild (on the streets of Nepal) don't like kids much. They tend to throw rocks, beat with sticks, and are generally unpredictable. They also don't forget a little person that's misbehaving. To all the trainers that think this is a come-to-Jesus moment, it is, but not for the dog! The dog could be telling you something that the owner is not hearing, just a thought.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

herojig said:


> not sure if this was mentioned, but dogs in the wild (on the streets of Nepal) don't like kids much. They tend to throw rocks, beat with sticks, and are generally unpredictable. They also don't forget a little person that's misbehaving. To all the trainers that think this is a come-to-Jesus moment, it is, but not for the dog! The dog could be telling you something that the owner is not hearing, just a thought.


I thought of that possibility as well. It could have been unintentionally though. Parents tend to trust their kids too much sometimes. I was just as guilty of that myself in the past.


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## AuroraSue (Oct 25, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> Does he understand look or ignore? Give a command he knows that would require him to break the focus and then correct for not following the command. You don't want to create a negative association with your son.
> 
> We taught ours ignore, which means quit focusing and look away.


This suggestions sounds so reasonable to me! It doesn't demean your son or the dog, it's just a distraction command......for now. I think that's a good start. If the behaviour continues, then you may have to read up on resource guarding as the other reply suggested. Good luck! Nipping this in the bud is exactly what you should be doing, so good for you!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> David, thank you!
> 
> He is a really nice dog to work and he is very social. I do work on building drive and he is a high drive dog. I just have to wake him up when I take him out of the car. Then he goes right to task. He is sufficiently hard, just not an over the top crazy Dutch Shepherd. His first night on the street I've gotten my biggest dope busts on simple traffic stops. Not DEA, HSI or Narcotics unit tips, just patrol guys pulling cars. First car had 9.5 ounces of meth, 600 fentanyl pills, and 900 adrenal pills. An hour later I responded to a suspicious vehicle made contact with the driver, brief interview and my dog alerts to the car. That car had 28 ounces of meth, scales, packaging materials and was linked to the cartels. That is just under a kilo of cocaine, packaged in one ounce bags. Those cases are going Federal. Boss, the new GSD, in just a couple of months has gotten numerous guns and lots of meth, cocaine and heroin in other traffic stops. Each time I have to wake him up to get him out of the car. I'm not sure he likes how I drive and curls up like a cat to avoid being bounced around in my car. 2 1/2 months on the street and I am still shaking my head. He is crushing it and I'm not going to over think it.


It's funny what you get used to, and expect, after working the typical working dog that never stops pacing, reactive, noisy, screw loose.

We had a Dutchie that was such a pain in the squad that they put a shelf in that he had to lay under because he kept messing his teeth up and busting his tail on the cage. Impossible to talk on the radio.

If you get reminiscent, you could keep a spray bottle to mist the right side of your face and play crazy dog screaming on the radio.

The best detection dog I've ever seen was like your guy. He would fall asleep in the truck, on helicopters, anytime you stopped for a few minutes when dismounted, between training venues in his crate. He would switch it on when it was game time. We used to joke that we should give him gps and a notepad and he would just bring us grids to all the hides. He was also super social.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

UniSPheryk said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Looking for some advice.
> We have an 18 month old GSD, intact male, living with us since he was 8 weeks old. He has always been very docile with everyone in the family and spends most of his days with my wife and 9 yr old son, and loves playing and going on walks with them. They have been involved with training since the beginning and both feed him frequently to strengthen the bond.
> ...


Just read your post. I have a 3.5y intact male who can get growly too. Most important while figuring this out is to keep son's face away from dog and not allow son in a submissive position to the dog like squatting down face to face. Always be there to hold collar. When my GSD crosses the line, I either hold his mouth shut and say no, or I hold his face fur and force him on the ground saying no and hold him there for 30 seconds or so because I need to dominate as the alpha. When I release him I redirect his focus to something else. Want to go out, or let's go outside and play etc. and dog snaps out of his growlies. Refocusing is a huge help. This behavior happens occasionally and he needs an immediate reminder of what's not acceptable. Hope this helps.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MyOdin said:


> Just read your post. I have a 3.5y intact male who can get growly too. Most important while figuring this out is to keep son's face away from dog and not allow son in a submissive position to the dog like squatting down face to face. Always be there to hold collar. When my GSD crosses the line, I either hold his mouth shut and say no, or I hold his face fur and force him on the ground saying no and hold him there for 30 seconds or so because I need to dominate as the alpha. When I release him I redirect his focus to something else. Want to go out, or let's go outside and play etc. and dog snaps out of his growlies. Refocusing is a huge help. This behavior happens occasionally and he needs an immediate reminder of what's not acceptable. Hope this helps.


As long as he does this, even once in a while, the issue has not been addressed IMO. You are running a risk when trying to hold a dog down that is not submissive to you. A dog that "can get growly" needs more than what you are doing since it's not working. Maybe at that very moment but all you do is annoying him, not correcting. I am curious how respectful he is in all other situations; walking in public, other dogs, prey animals, feeding time, recall etc.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

UniSPheryk said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Looking for some advice.
> We have an 18 month old GSD, intact male, living with us since he was 8 weeks old. He has always been very docile with everyone in the family and spends most of his days with my wife and 9 yr old son, and loves playing and going on walks with them. They have been involved with training since the beginning and both feed him frequently to strengthen the bond.
> ...


My boy is submissive to me. He enjoys a chase and comes when called, but is not a killer and I wouldn't allow it. We sat and watched a young squirrel in my yard trying to climb a trellis. He doesn't like other dogs, but then he was attacked and injured at 7months by another dog. Very social with people visiting. Gets more protective when on a leash and I wouldn't let strangers touch him. Super protective in the car and have to work on it. Haven't had a problem with feeding.

which he started growling at my son for no apparent reason. Both of these happened while the dog was laying down but awake and perfectly aware someone was approaching (not a case he has been startled). The most recent one happened just now while I was petting the dog and my son approached at walking speed and the dog was aware of his presence since he got in the room. When my son got closer the dog locked his stare on him and started growling. No food or toys in immediate vicinity. Not very loud and no barking, but a clear growl.
I can’t imagine what has changed and I’m getting apprehensive with this situation.
Any ideas on what I can do to stop this behaviour, or what might be triggering the dog?

Any help very much appreciated.

View attachment 588600


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds like a similar situation only your dog is older and more set in his ways so you may have a harder time changing it. Killing animals has to do with prey drive and is not related to resource guarding people. He needs a lot more training in various areas; cars, ignoring dogs and resource guarding you. You are in the same category as his toys (to him).


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MyOdin said:


> When my GSD crosses the line, I either hold his mouth shut and say no, or I hold his face fur and force him on the ground saying no and hold him there for 30 seconds or so because I need to dominate as the alpha.


Please stop doing this.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If a dog gets frustrated and just shut down without his needs addressed, he will unload his frustration somewhere where he can, like your son. Your are causing this behavior by your alpha games.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> If a dog gets frustrated and just shut down without his needs addressed, he will unload his frustration somewhere where he can, like your son. Your are causing this behavior by your alpha games.


Two different posters ....


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Please stop doing this.


It works for me, he's not being hurt and I rarely need to do it anymore.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MyOdin said:


> It works for me, he's not being hurt and I rarely need to do it anymore.


You do you. If I need to get to that point I am going to reassess my relationship with my dog, my communication and training skills are clearly not up to par.


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## wtfalanseaman (Dec 2, 2021)

UniSPheryk said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Looking for some advice.
> We have an 18 month old GSD, intact male, living with us since he was 8 weeks old. He has always been very docile with everyone in the family and spends most of his days with my wife and 9 yr old son, and loves playing and going on walks with them. They have been involved with training since the beginning and both feed him frequently to strengthen the bond.
> ...


Your son urgently needs to approach, put the leash on him, and walk him on a regular basis. If/when he growls, he must smile and ask why. Unless you intend to breed, he must be spade.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MyOdin said:


> It works for me, he's not being hurt and I rarely need to do it anymore.


'Rarely' doesn't equal 'solved'. Your advice doesn't help the OP.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

wtfalanseaman said:


> Your son urgently needs to approach, put the leash on him, and walk him on a regular basis. If/when he growls, he must smile and ask why. Unless you intend to breed, he must be spade.


I guess we all are trainers 🤷‍♀️


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wtfalanseaman said:


> Your son urgently needs to approach, put the leash on him, and walk him on a regular basis. If/when he growls, he must smile and ask why. Unless you intend to breed, he must be spade.


Do you think the dog understands the question?

Is this some philosophical way of saying that the son is the problem and he should know why or should learn so by smiling?

Male dogs are neutered. Females are spayed.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Male dogs are neutered. Females are spayed.


I think he means hit him in the head with a spade....


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Male dogs are neutered. Females are spayed.


Technically both are neutered. Males are castrated, females are spayed (an ovariohysterectomy).


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

One needs to know their dog. When mine was coming into maturity he would challenge me and I had to assert my authority and dominance as his alpha. Hence, when necessary I would put him on the ground and say no immediately if he showed his teeth to me or play turned into a test. He Never fought back. It was like clearing the air of any confusion of what was unacceptable. This was not training and I used training techniques for other purposes. My writing was out of concern for the little boy's safety which is a priority if you read the whole thing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

MyOdin said:


> One needs to know their dog. When mine was coming into maturity he would challenge me and I had to assert my authority and dominance as his alpha. Hence, when necessary I would put him on the ground and say no immediately if he showed his teeth to me or play turned into a test. He Never fought back. It was like clearing the air of any confusion of what was unacceptable. This was not training and I used training techniques for other purposes. My writing was out of concern for the little boy's safety which is a priority if you read the whole thing.


Shades of Cesar Milan... 
Showing a dog _what to do_ needs to happen after a correction.Dogs require that information also.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

MyOdin said:


> One needs to know their dog. When mine was coming into maturity he would challenge me and I had to assert my authority and dominance as his alpha. Hence, when necessary I would put him on the ground and say no immediately if he showed his teeth to me or play turned into a test. He Never fought back. It was like clearing the air of any confusion of what was unacceptable. This was not training and I used training techniques for other purposes. My writing was out of concern for the little boy's safety which is a priority if you read the whole thing.


Might I add the dog needs more exercise than neighborhood walks. Not enough sustained strenuous exercise daily or twice can lead to aggressive behavior. And asserting an alpha leadership role is not a game, but rather a hierarchy that a dog understands and responds to.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Shades of Cesar Milan...
> Showing a dog _what to do_ needs to happen after a correction.Dogs require that information also.


Yes, always. I turned the situation into a positive by refocusing him on playing fetch or a similar activity where he got lots of positive praise, which he loves. It worked for me, maybe not for everyone. Thank you.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MyOdin said:


> Just read your post. I have a 3.5y intact male who can get growly too. Most important while figuring this out is to keep son's face away from dog and not allow son in a submissive position to the dog like squatting down face to face. Always be there to hold collar. *When my GSD crosses the line, I either hold his mouth shut and say no, or I hold his face fur and force him on the ground saying no and hold him there for 30 seconds or so because I need to dominate as the alpha. *When I release him I redirect his focus to something else. Want to go out, or let's go outside and play etc. and dog snaps out of his growlies. Refocusing is a huge help. This behavior happens occasionally and he needs an immediate reminder of what's not acceptable. Hope this helps.


That is not how we assert ourselves as "alpha." You are very fortunate that you do not own a "Rank" dog or a really strong, aggressive dog. If you had a tougher dog you would have been bitten several times by using these silly techniques. We do not "alpha roll" dogs anymore, we do not pin a dog to the ground to assert our dominance and we certainly do not grab a dog's mouth and hold it shut. Just like we do not pinch a puppies lip into it's canine to teach it stop biting. This things do not assert your dominance over the dog. The proof is in the fact that you have done it more than once. If you were truly dominant and had your dog's trust and respect he would never challenge you. 



MyOdin said:


> One needs to know their dog. When mine was coming into maturity he would challenge me and I had to assert my authority and dominance as his alpha. Hence, when necessary I would put him on the ground and say no immediately if he showed his teeth to me or play turned into a test. *He Never fought back*. *It was like clearing the air of any confusion of what was unacceptable. This was not training and I used training techniques for other purposes*. My writing was out of concern for the little boy's safety which is a priority if you read the whole thing.


You've done anything but clear the air, you have created a lot of confusion with your dog. What you did was training, not good or effective training but training none the less. Everything we do with our dogs is training. Our dogs are constantly watching us and learning, what to do and sometimes what they do not have to do. If your dog is showing his teeth to you, your issues and problems started a long time before the snarling started. 

*"He Never fought back" *This tells me the dog did not need this type of treatment and if it occurred a second time it was completely ineffective. It seems you missed a lot of earlier cues and your dog is unclear of his position and your position in your household. You need to realize that you and your dog are not a 'Pack." Your are a person and your dog is dog. You dog knows you are not a dog. Since, you are not viewed as a dog then why do these silly dominate things. I wish people would stop acting like the "mother dog" with their puppies or struggle to establish dominance with a dog that doesn't really challenge you. Al that happens is that you wind up being viewed as a "whelping littermate to your dog." 

For the people reading this thread because they may have issues with their dog and your relationship, do not alpha roll your dog, do not pin your dog to the ground. It will only accomplish two things, 1 you will get bit and / or you will damage your relationship with your dog. 

I've owned and worked some very strong and very aggressive dogs and I have never rolled one of them. The last thing I would have ever done with the Dutch Shepherd I had was try to roll him. I got him because he had bitten 7 of his previous handlers. A strong, highly reactive dog that tried to solve problems with aggression and it was violent. The last thing I ever wanted to do was wrestle with this dog and get on the ground with my face next to his. That dog learned that I was in charge, I built a friendship and strong bond. I got him to trust me and then I earned his respect. I got bit a few times, but we worked it out. He turned out to be a fantastic, loving and loyal partner. One of my all time favorite dogs. I have a 2 1/2 year old 53 lb Malinios here, a little dog but a very tough little dog. He had to wash out of our training because of a CCL injury. I kept him because he is loving and adorable, he is also very stubborn. He can turn aggressive quickly. If you tried to roll this little dog to establish your dominance, he might neuter you or bite you in the face or arms. The least would be a trip to the hospital for you. I have no issues controlling him and actually rarely if ever even give him corrections. He is easy for me to handle and I enjoy being around him. He's challenged me once or twice in the initial training, which is completely normal and to be expected. He was never rolled and that would have been a huge mistake. 

Everything we do is training and we are either enforcing or un training behaviors. When you are fair, patient and consistent the dog easily learns who is charge. It really is that easy.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

My dog comes from a line of fierce police dogs. I worked with him as he was maturing around 1-3 yrs. and never hit or hurt him. I don't think there's any question in his mind that I lead. He looks to me for commands. He's developed into a socially friendly dog and listens very well and is rewarded. He loves to play and horse around, but takes work seriously. I am very proud of him. He is very bonded to me as I am to him. I am not his mother, however I am a stern leader when necessary and it works for us. You cannot judge other people's style unless the dog is being neglected, harmed or abused. The dogs you speak of may be maladjusted, poor breeding or other problems and need to be attended to very differently if they are older with existing difficulties. I don't know what rolling is, but you may be misinterpreting my words. My dog is not the same as your situation. It seems you are being reactive.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MyOdin said:


> *My dog comes from a line of fierce police dogs.* I worked with him as he was maturing around 1-3 yrs. and never hit or hurt him. I don't think there's any question in his mind that I lead. He looks to me for commands. He's developed into a socially friendly dog and listens very well and is rewarded. He loves to play and horse around, but takes work seriously. I am very proud of him. He is very bonded to me as I am to him. I am not his mother, however I am a stern leader when necessary and it works for us. You cannot judge other people's style unless the dog is being neglected, harmed or abused. The dogs you speak of may be maladjusted, poor breeding or other problems and need to be attended to very differently if they are older with existing difficulties. I don't know what rolling is, but you may be misinterpreting my words. My dog is not the same as your situation. It seems you are being reactive.


And this explains everything.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Putting on the ground (your words) = rolling
Slamdunc and some others are chiming in mostly to share information for others to read and learn from,not just you.
FYI Slamdunc is a police officer/dog handler that trains other handlers and their "fierce police dogs".You might be interested in checking out some of his old threads and videos of his many years of experience.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

And Dave Winners is a former military dog handler, with combat experience. These men both have more experience with hard working dogs than most of the other board members combined.

You only THINK you know more than they do.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MyOdin said:


> My dog comes from a line of fierce police dogs. I worked with him as he was maturing around 1-3 yrs. and never hit or hurt him. I don't think there's any question in his mind that I lead. He looks to me for commands. He's developed into a socially friendly dog and listens very well and is rewarded. He loves to play and horse around, but takes work seriously. I am very proud of him. He is very bonded to me as I am to him. I am not his mother, however I am a stern leader when necessary and it works for us. *You cannot judge other people's style unless the dog is being neglected, harmed or abused. The dogs you speak of may be maladjusted, poor breeding or other problems and need to be attended to very differently if they are older with existing difficulties. I don't know what rolling is, but you may be misinterpreting my words. My dog is not the same as your situation. It seems you are being reactive.*


_My boy is submissive to me. He enjoys a chase and comes when called, but is not a killer and I wouldn't allow it. We sat and watched a young squirrel in my yard trying to climb a trellis. He doesn't like other dogs, but then he was attacked and injured at 7months by another dog. Very social with people visiting. Gets more protective when on a leash and I wouldn't let strangers touch him. Super protective in the car and have to work on it. Haven't had a problem with feeding.

which he started growling at my son for no apparent reason. Both of these happened while the dog was laying down but awake and perfectly aware someone was approaching (not a case he has been startled). The most recent one happened just now while I was petting the dog and my son approached at walking speed and the dog was aware of his presence since he got in the room. When my son got closer the dog locked his stare on him and started growling. No food or toys in immediate vicinity. Not very loud and no barking, but a clear growl.
I can’t imagine what has changed and I’m getting apprehensive with this situation.
Any ideas on what I can do to stop this behaviour, or what might be triggering the dog?_

I'd love to see the pedigree of your dog. I'm glad your dog is bonded to you and I never said you physically harmed your dog. 

I've been working and training dogs for a little while now. I only post on topics that I have some experience in and some knowledge from years of working with a leash in my hand. I think I can get an idea on other people's training and abilities by their posts. I'm not judging you, I just want good information to be put out to the thousands of people that might read this thread. I don't judge people, it is really not my style or how I operate. I certainly understand if you feel that I am disagreeing with how you have tried to correct this issue. There was a time when I was in your situation, and I needed help with my first hard, handler aggressive GSD. I was fortunate to get get into a SchH or IGP club and learn form several knowledgeable people. That started my working dog journey and that was a long time ago. I've also been on dog forums for a little while now. I've helped people with training issues and I've seen well intentioned people give some very bad advice. Some times the advice was even potentially dangerous. My delivery is direct, I am rather blount. Please don't take the delivery of my message personally. You did ask for advice, how you choose to take or apply the advice is totally up to you. I quoted you above. 

As far as my dogs, they are actual working K-9's. I handle and train Dual Purpose Patrol and Narcotics K9's. The Dutch Shepherd I had was very well bred and imported from Holland. No doubt he had issues, I knew that when I got him at 3 1/2 years old. His name was Boru and his story when I got him is posted in the Police K9 forum. I'm convinced if I didn't stick it out with him he would have been put down by his next handler or Police Department. He became an outstanding Patrol Dog, I love and miss that dog. He passed way too soon. Being a Police K9 is a dangerous job, for both the handler and the dog. Boru and Boomer, my two past K9's have both been punched and kicked in fights with bad guys. Punching or kicking either one of those dogs was a bad idea. When I select dogs to be Police dogs they need to have high drive, be fairly social, willing to bite for real and be sufficiently hard. These are not problem dogs, but tough high drive dogs that will not back down from a fight. Not maladjusted, just driven and tough. Many members here will understand. These dogs are not the best pets, but can be for me. These dogs are not for the average pet owner. 

*I don't know what rolling is, but you may be misinterpreting my words. My dog is not the same as your situation. It seems you are being reactive.*

The alpha roll is picking a dog up, slamming it on it's side and pinning it to the ground. Rolling is what you described as "pinning the dog to the ground" and holding him there. This is a poor way to achieve dominance, plus it doesn't work. Ask yourself what is the dog learning? What is the dog thinking? As he is pinned to the ground for 30 seconds for a minor infraction. I'm sory, but there is no other way to say it. It is very important to me that folks that might be "lurking" and not posting may have the same issue and may try your style of achieving dominance and get hurt or the dog get hurt in the process. There are many experienced dog handlers here and they offer excellent advice. When it comes to dealing with aggressive dogs people have to be very careful. While most dogs will not react aggressively, it only takes one dog to react and a forum member get bit. I've been bitten many times over the years and will undoubtedly get bit again. If I thought rolling or pinning a dog was a good idea I would do it. 30 years ago people did this to dogs. Today few good trainers do this, very few. 

To be clear, IMHO alpha rolling or pinning a dog has gone the way of the Dodo bird. Because you are not in the same situation as me and I wouldn't pin a dog, I hope you will rethink this training ideology. There are so many easier, safer and much more effective ways to handle aggression and gain control and get the respect of your dog. 

Please do not be offended, my intention was not to offend or insult. I just prefer to be direct, nothing personal.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Slamdunc Did you lose Boomer? You helped me so much with handling technique when my dog was young. You knew exactly what I was doing wrong from my description and explained how I could improve. It worked. Rather than argue with experts and experienced handlers here, newer owners should relax and accept the help when it is offered. It’s free and it’s good.


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

None taken. Holy crap folks, what I did is not what you describe, which sounds frightening and violent and unnecessary. I would not treat a dog like that ever. When my dog was in my face acting inappropriately, I gently pulled him down onto the floor to make my point that this isn't ok. I said no, then released him after a few seconds to go lay down, or get in the car. Violence is never correct with these gorgeous animals in my book My point was the boy's safety first as the situation is concerning. Even a muzzle if necessary if the child is in danger. Who knows for sure. None of us do. Everyone here wants to be an expert, but dogs and situations vary and none of us are able to witness first hand this concerning situation. I feel for the family, but protect that child. Can anyone recommend a reputable trainer in their location


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> @Slamdunc Did you lose Boomer? You helped me so much with handling technique when my dog was young. You knew exactly what I was doing wrong from my description and explained how I could improve. It worked. Rather than argue with experts and experienced handlers here, newer owners should relax and accept the help when it is offered. It’s free and it’s good.


Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I lost Boomer in 2018, he was twelve. I lost Boru in April, that was a complete shock and very sudden. Boru would have been 10 on July 1st. I expected that Boru would live to 14, he was such a strong dog. He was fine Saturday night, ate dinner. he was fine Sunday morning when I left to go kayak fishing. He was gone before I got home at 2 PM. It is never easy to lose a dog, Boru was an especially tough loss.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Oh, I got them mixed up. I meant Boru. I knew about Boomer. I’m so sorry. You had such fascinating stories about how you got him and all your successes with him.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

He was an exceptional dog in so many ways. He was a challenge in the beginning but an absolute joy for the rest of his life.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Slamdunc said:


> _My boy is submissive to me. He enjoys a chase and comes when called, but is not a killer and I wouldn't allow it. We sat and watched a young squirrel in my yard trying to climb a trellis. He doesn't like other dogs, but then he was attacked and injured at 7months by another dog. Very social with people visiting. Gets more protective when on a leash and I wouldn't let strangers touch him. Super protective in the car and have to work on it. Haven't had a problem with feeding.
> 
> which he started growling at my son for no apparent reason. Both of these happened while the dog was laying down but awake and perfectly aware someone was approaching (not a case he has been startled). The most recent one happened just now while I was petting the dog and my son approached at walking speed and the dog was aware of his presence since he got in the room. When my son got closer the dog locked his stare on him and started growling. No food or toys in immediate vicinity. Not very loud and no barking, but a clear growl.
> I can’t imagine what has changed and I’m getting apprehensive with this situation.
> ...


I'm not the person this post is intended toward but I'm just really grateful for this forum. It's incredible that people new to dogs (like me) can find information like this from seasoned handlers/trainers on a public forum.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> He was an exceptional dog in so many ways. He was a challenge in the beginning but an absolute joy for the rest of his life.


You learn so much from these dogs as well. My first dog was difficult and there was no forum. It was trial and error. Being a teacher helped. That dog motivated me to dive into dog training. Without him I don't think I would have become a trainer and probably had Goldens. There was also a Golden available at that time but I chose him. That was about 40 years ago


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## MyOdin (Feb 9, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> You learn so much from these dogs as well. My first dog was difficult and there was no forum. It was trial and error. Being a teacher helped. That dog motivated me to dive into dog training. Without him I don't think I would have become a trainer and probably had Goldens. There was also a Golden available at that time but I chose him. That was about 40 years ago


Slamdunc I appreciate your note and I certainly will study your take on particular situations. My boy is a Russian/Czech mix as you had inquired. The breeder supplies police and military. Odin makes a great family dog and working with him is an ongoing 24/7 lifestyle in which he is my priority. Safe handling always comes first. Building trust and respect always. Thanks.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My first GSD was a marshmallow. She was so easy to train it was ridiculous.

My second one...hooo boy!! And back in those days, it was all Kohler training. I know I was too rough with her, but she was a hard dog, with a mind of her own, so the harsh training didn't destroy our bond. Eventually, I had a very nice dog that would walk by my side off leash, and was also a protector of our family, home and vehicles. Wish I'd had a forum like this, though. I would have avoided a lot of mistakes!

I learned ten times more from this hard-headed dog than I did from the previous dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> I learned ten times more from this hard-headed dog than I did from the previous dog.


Which kids do I remember from my elementary days? The tough ones that other teachers didn't like (teachers shouldn't have dislikes). I loved figuring them out, finding the reason for their behavior and build a bond. Kinda what we do with tough dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

She was so bonded to us that if we got separated on a walk, she'd run back and forth between the two of us.
And if we were having a hug, she wanted to be in the middle of it! 🥰


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