# Any good trainers in the Northj Orange county/south LA county region (CA)?



## pancake

I found a few on yelp and some are just single person businesses. Anyone have any experience with the k9 mentor AKA Mike Cruz? 100% reviews on yelp, doesnt seem fabricated. 
Also davidutter.com and he also has 100% on yelp and they seem genuine. I messaged a few people from the yelp reviews to get reference feedback. 
The other place I'm most likely going to pay a visit is allstatesk9.com 

They were actually featured on Cesar Millan's The Dog Whisperer. i believe the newest episode where Cesar gets bit by a dog named Holly, they were in that. And they were also in Season 7 episode 7 and episode 8. They train police dogs for search and rescue, detection, etc. and also do obedience training. The man Lamb does absolutely have a love and care for his animals and I like how he was humble enough to open up his business on national tv to accept that he needed help and it resulted in the troubled dog turning into a fantastic working dog and not being euthanized. Their rates are very reasonable for basic obedience. 

I'm pretty sold on at least paying them a visit to check out their facilities and observe their training techniques and I have also spoke with them. I'm not just going off of the fact that they have a Cesar picture on their website haha. They use no treats or bribery which I absolutely agree with (personal opinion/preference) but use only lots of praise. Which I also like. And leash corrections which is fine by me. 

Long shot since this forum isn't very active but if anyone has any experience with these 3 trainers, good or bad, I'm all ears.


----------



## Jag

Hey, isn't that guy that's training in all the Leerburg vids out that way?


----------



## pancake

Is his name Michael Ellis? I actually wasn't familiar (and still am not) with Leerburg. Ive been to leerburg.com a few times but it looked more like a store so I never looked into. i'll def look into what they offer and what their training philosophy is though. Thanks!


----------



## Jag

Yes! I LOVE watching him work his one dog (can't think of the dog's name either). If I lived out there, we'd be going!


----------



## Capone22

Michael Ellis is in Northern California not southern. I went to his school for two weeks and he is truly amazing. But not anywhere near the op. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Capone22

And the dog is probably Pi  mondio3 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Capone22

OP- none of those look like someone I would take my dog to. But just cause I'm curious, why no treats? What about toys? Not all dogs are the same. For some dogs praise is better than anything, for others a tug is the best reward. A trainer should be able to figure out what best works for each individual dog. And your not bribing your dog with anything. Treats are used in the beginning to lure or reward small steps until the dog understands the behavior you are asking of them. It's much different correcting a dog for ignoring a command when you are 100% sure they understand what you are asking and correcting a dog who doesn't. 

The fact that every trainer you mentioned states a training "tool" they will not use right off the bat on their websites is a red flag for me. I want a trainer with an entire tool box that they can dig in to, depending on the dog they are working with. Treats, tugs, balls, praise, prong collar, e collar... Not a one size fits all mentality. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Jag

Capone22 said:


> And the dog is probably Pi  mondio3
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Yes, it was Pi! OP- if you have a chance, there are vids on youtube. Do a search for him and Pi. He does this routine inside with the dog and a tug. He NEVER raises his voice for a command, it's all such a happy tone yet the dog responds immediately. This is what I'd like to have for a response! It's amazing to watch, and it may give you a goal to shoot for in obedience. 

Sorry, didn't want to derail, but I thought that was worth posting.


----------



## k9carrie

I have done all breed obedience training for 20 years & the MOST important thing is adaptability in a trainer! She needs to have a variety of ways to train with a variety of tools. Every dog and every owner need something different. You are selling yourself & your dog short if you don't open up to ALL options! Most trainers will do a free consultation with you & your dog before you sign up. Do a consultation with several before you decide. Vets & groomers often have training referrals,also. Good luck!


----------



## pancake

Thanks everyone! I'll still not 100% decided, still doing research. It's quite alarming though how the website and videos can look happy and dandy but then you start digging and doing google searches and by page 3 of google search you find a review that states they're using abusive methods. Very unsettling cause it could be true or it could be complete fabrication by a competing business, etc. but it does make you question that choice. Btw, not speaking about the 3 choices above, I just found another one on yelp that seemed to have some "controversy" which is why I brought it up. 




Capone22 said:


> OP- none of those look like someone I would take my dog to. But just cause I'm curious, why no treats? What about toys? Not all dogs are the same. For some dogs praise is better than anything, for others a tug is the best reward. A trainer should be able to figure out what best works for each individual dog. And your not bribing your dog with anything. Treats are used in the beginning to lure or reward small steps until the dog understands the behavior you are asking of them. It's much different correcting a dog for ignoring a command when you are 100% sure they understand what you are asking and correcting a dog who doesn't.
> 
> The fact that every trainer you mentioned states a training "tool" they will not use right off the bat on their websites is a red flag for me. I want a trainer with an entire tool box that they can dig in to, depending on the dog they are working with. Treats, tugs, balls, praise, prong collar, e collar... Not a one size fits all mentality.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Hmm, why wouldn't you take your dogs to them? Based on what I read they seem promising. Not just the website but the yelp reviews. 2 of the individual trainers have Certified therapy dogs and have experience with AKC Canine Good Citizen tests and so forth. That isn't a greenlight automatically but also I mostly try to see the person itself. After reading "credentials", if they seem like an imbalanced person or someone short of patience, not very nice, etc. that's more of a red flag than anything. Mike from the K9 mentor seems nice, he visits hospitals to uplift people's spirits but then again, I don't know him personally. 
I have actually received some messages back on yelp after I messaged every single review what they thought about the trainer now that time has passed. For David utter I only got positive answers, they all recommend him. Haven't heard back for mike though. 

I do agree that the more tools in the toolbox, the better but I don't think that it's feasible to be an expert in every method or technique. To me, it'd be a red flag for someone who is touting that they use everything cause they're claiming expertise in too many fields. Adaptability is good but if they seem too adaptable, I kind of get the feeling that theyre trying to cover an inch thick and a mile wide. I'd rather go to experts in 1-3 methods and if that doesn't work for my dog or isn't compatible, they a different method with a different expert in that method. But of course, purely personal preference and if I'm lucky enough to find someone who's actually really good at more than a few tools, I'm all ears! Just haven't found it yet. Trainers tend to stick to their "team" or "style". I haven't found many balanced trainers that can use positive reinforcement and also deal with extremely aggressive dogs all with calmness and love. It seems everyone's either too extreme "food and treat only! politically correctness first!" or "they need to listen to me now! im the boss!". Very difficult to find someone who's a balanced person. And that's why I have much respect for Cesar Millan. Some may disagree with his style but its hard to argue that he doesn't love and have a very strong passion for dogs and he always comes from a place of calmness and love. 

All States k9 was featured 3 times on the show with Cesar and got personal endorsement from him and also has very good 100% reviews on yelp. When i called they were willing to answer every question and were very nice. 
From what I understand, they just don't use treats cause from what I was told based on their experience training advanced service and police dogs, the failure rate is much higher when treats ONLY are involved. Obviously they're not opposed to praising and giving treats to a dog out of love and appreciation or rewarding the dog with treats. Just not the strict, operant conditioning method to try and rewire the dog's brain to do something. The philosophy behind using treats constantly to reinforce a behavior is different than praise in my personal opinion cause methods based on focus on a treat as a reward isnt as reliable and connected as the dog learning to seek the reward of love the affection and approval from the handler. But that's just me and that's why I'm looking to check them out. Of course this depends completely on the dog. I'm also open to the fact that it may not be that great and I'll try someone else and a different method though.


----------



## pancake

k9carrie said:


> I have done all breed obedience training for 20 years & the MOST important thing is adaptability in a trainer! She needs to have a variety of ways to train with a variety of tools. Every dog and every owner need something different. You are selling yourself & your dog short if you don't open up to ALL options! Most trainers will do a free consultation with you & your dog before you sign up. Do a consultation with several before you decide. Vets & groomers often have training referrals,also. Good luck!


Oh of course! I'm definitely open to more options and since she's a puppy I'm sure that there are times where I feel certain methods would be better for her as she grows and for different goals. I'm not opposed to hybrid theories and methods but if I'm going to try let's say, a treat based clicker method I want someone who's done that and is a specialist in that. Someone with a blackbelt and 10 years of experience  If it doesn't work, I'll try a different master of a different training method. I've always found someone who touts a mastery of everything knows enough is kind of suspicious to me.


----------



## pancake

Jag said:


> Yes, it was Pi! OP- if you have a chance, there are vids on youtube. Do a search for him and Pi. He does this routine inside with the dog and a tug. He NEVER raises his voice for a command, it's all such a happy tone yet the dog responds immediately. This is what I'd like to have for a response! It's amazing to watch, and it may give you a goal to shoot for in obedience.
> 
> Sorry, didn't want to derail, but I thought that was worth posting.


Ah I totally would see him if I was up north! haha



Anyone want to take a look at this website also and give me their thoughts? http://www.thethinkingdog.com/about-the-thinking-dog/houston-dog-trainers/bud-brownhill

Im checking out everything havent made a decision yet. He's in houston so I'm not going to be able to see him but David Utter (my OP) learned from Bud Brownhill so might give some insight.


----------



## gagsd

If I were anywhere near Anne at Adler Stein (Vandal on this board).... I would absolutely go train with her.


----------



## pancake

gagsd said:


> If I were anywhere near Anne at Adler Stein (Vandal on this board).... I would absolutely go train with her.


Oh man, she's so far away. Socal but maybe an hour or 2 hour drive with traffic.  
Thanks for the suggestions though. 


Here are (3) 1 minute clips of David Utter and his off leash training. 
Saint Bernard Dog Training and Behavior Orange County Dog Trainer David Utter at www.DavidUtter.com - YouTube

Huntington Beach Dog Beach Training Dogs for Obedience and Behavior - YouTube

Weimaraner Hunting Dog Off Leash Dog Trainer Los Angeles Orange Riverside & San Bernardino - YouTube

I posted this in a different section cause it was relevant but he doesn't use an ecollar and it's pretty impressive to see these kind of results with distractions. but then again, i've seen videos and pictures of very amazing results and then turns out the trainer is a total ****. there was a thread about this from a few years ago but someone asked about superdog.com and David Baron. his website had me sold, the video and everything. Then I did a little digging and despite the amazing well behaved and happy looking dogs, he himself was a total loon. There were reviews I found that said he was sending death threats to people for writing bad reviews calling a woman "a ****" and he'll come to her house and kill her, etc. etc. and It was confirmed cause you can actually read his responses to other reviewers on yelp and various websites. That was a wakeup call that videos can be deceptive, some people could be great dog trainers but absolute psychopaths in real life.


----------



## gagsd

pancake said:


> Oh man, she's so far away. Socal but maybe an hour or 2 hour drive with traffic.
> Thanks for the suggestions though.


Might be worth your while.


----------



## gagsd

pancake said:


> ..... Then I did a little digging and despite the amazing well behaved and happy looking dogs, he himself was a total loon. There were reviews I found that said he was sending death threats to people for writing bad reviews calling a woman "a ****" and he'll come to her house and kill her, etc. etc. and It was confirmed cause you can actually read his responses to other reviewers on yelp and various websites. That was a wakeup call that videos can be deceptive, some people could be great dog trainers but absolute psychopaths in real life.


Those are the fun ones. We have a local trainer like that.
I have learned that if they invoke the name of Jesus and /or have crosses on their website.... to run!


----------



## Capone22

For me If I am training a puppy my main focus is fun. the first phase of any training is to teach them the commands. I want the training to be fun, positive, building drive focus and confidence. The only corrections I really do with puppies is with holding a treat for them to try again, if they don't do what I ask. This phase is building our bond and foundation for future training. 

With training that only uses praise as a reward, I find there is usually a lot more corrections involved. 

Each ones of the first three you listed stated they do not use treats. I personally like treats for the first phase. I will use toys and treats for rewards for the rest of the dogs life. Not every time, eventually you get to a point where you space them out. But let me tell you, when Michael is working his dogs they still get rewarded with tug. Even Pi. Their bond, the focus, it's almost unexplainable. All his puppies are started with treats. Toys coming after. He uses prongs and e collars. And he has no problems with off leash work or titling his dogs without the collars. 

I started training my family dogs at 9 years old with the old yank n crank method. And lots of praise. (Insert eye roll smiley) I dabbled in clicker. But I truly believe the best training for most dogs is a combo of positive reinforcement with corrections added in if and only if you know 100% that the dog understands what is being asked of him. Otherwise it's not fair, IMO. 






Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## k9carrie

capone22-I agree 100%!


----------



## The K9 Mentor

*Reply From Mike Cruz - The K9 Mentor*

Hello Everyone.

Thank you Pancake for asking about me (Mike Cruz aka The K9 Mentor) on this site. I do Google my company from time to time to try to get a feeling for how satisfied (or not) my clients are which is how I found this post. I love Yelp and really appreciate all of the reviews that people have left for me there. But Yelp isn’t the only game in town so I like to look around and see what else I find. 

I wanted to take a moment to answer the questions that were raised here and to share a little more info. I am not expecting everyone to agree with what I have to say and respect the fact that there are a lot of different methods to training dogs. And yes, one method can be great with one dog while it fails miserably with another. (That’s part of why I have a guarantee. If it doesn’t work for your dog, which is fortunately quite rare, then there is no charge.) So if anyone would like to agree or disagree with me here, I appreciate it. But I’m not looking to debate training methods, whether or not we agree with each other, and respectfully will be avoiding that.

*Yelp Reviews* – They’re all genuine. I never ask my clients to post 5 star reviews and am always amazed and appreciative of the feedback that I have gotten. While I’d love for the 5 star streak to last forever, I’m also a realist and know that won’t be the case. I do hope that it continues for some time though! 

*Why Not Treats?* – I do believe that you should give your dog treats. That’s part of the fun of having a dog. My dogs get treats regularly. I do recommend that they only get high quality ones that are US made. But I strongly believe that a dog should not get treats for doing his job (sitting, coming, not jumping on people or furniture unless invited up by the person). My dog who is a therapy dog at a local Children’s Hospital gets LOTS of treats from the kids she visits with. It is a great way to reward a dog for being a good dog. I just feel it isn’t a good idea to reward them for doing what is expected of them. Also, if you don’t have a treat with you, many dogs won’t do what you want if they’ve been trained to expect a treat. This is another reason that I don’t think treats are advantageous in training. 

*A Trainer Should Figure Out What Is Best For Each Dog* – I totally agree. That is why I have all of my clients fill out a complete, 3 page questionnaire prior to training. And a dog should be corrected in a way that he/she understands, otherwise it isn’t fair to the dog. My methods of correction are fair but firm when necessary. I NEVER hit the dog, NEVER punish the dog to a crate, NEVER throw cans of pennies at the dog, NEVER squirt the dog with water and NEVER make the dog flinch out of fear or pain. NEVER. The methods I use are the same 3 methods that dogs use to communicate to each other in a pack. These ways are what they expect from another dog or would do to another dog they wanted to correct. Anything that is foreign to a dog only confuses the dog and stresses him/her out. 

*“With training that only uses praise as a reward, I find there is usually a lot more corrections involved.” -- Capone 22.* I can’t say what Capone feels is “a lot more corrections”. But I do believe in heavily praising a dog after EVERY thing he/she does right. If you tell a dog to sit, and he does, I praise. It’s not a quick pat with a “good dog” thrown in. It’s praise that the dog craves. And I do praise much more than correct because I don’t correct unless the dog misbehaves and doesn’t do as told. Most dogs learn quickly with my method and therefore get a lot more praise than corrections. Also, the corrections start off light and only increase to the point that the dog responds. I do not believe in firmly correcting the dog unless he knows what is expected and is being stubborn/alpha. 

I do feel that many trainers out there are too extreme. I don’t agree with it. I think every dog needs to know he is loved and should be praised when he is behaving as we would want him to. That’s what makes a happy, confident, well adjusted dog. But I also believe that a dog needs to know his place (he’s not the alpha), that there are rules that need to be followed and that just as he will be praised for positive behavior, he will humanely be corrected for improper behavior. Dogs that are aggressive, I have found, are usually confused as to what their role is and try to “protect” themselves from the “threat” they perceive – Even if the “threat” is a Girl Scout selling cookies at the front door. 

I praise aggressive dogs too whenever they behave correctly and usually get them to turn their behavior from aggressive to nice in no time at all. My experience is that this is not common in the dog training community as many trainers hold a grudge towards a dog who attacks him. It’s not uncommon for me to have an aggressive dog try to attack me when I arrive only to snuggle up to me and lick my hand after we are done. Again, it’s all about praising the dog so that he knows he is a good dog but also correcting when he is misbehaving.

I’m proud to say that many of my clients have learned about Therapy Dog programs from my website, or from our training sessions, and have gone on to get their dogs certified by Pet Partners (formerly Delta Society) or Therapy Dogs International (TDI). I think these are both great organizations and am proud to be both certified with one of my dogs with Pet Partners and to give free prep lessons to clients who have a dog who I believe would make a good therapy dog. 

I’m sure that this post will stir up a small debate and again, that wasn’t my reason for posting. I do appreciate that people on this site do love their dogs and do want to do what is best for their dog. My method may be best for one and not for another. I understand and respect that. 

Thanks for reading my long post!


----------

