# "Nervous"/weak nerved dogs



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I've been reading on the aggression forum about dogs with "weak nerves." What exactly does this mean? Just a nervous, not-confident dog? More likely to snap?

How does one go about making sure the pup they get has "strong nerves"? Just pick a reputable breeder and tell them that's what you want? I kind of get from the forums that American and show lines are more nervy than working German lines. I guess I'd just have to really trust the breeder...


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

That was one of the main reasons I went with a reputable breeder with at least 4 generations back to the litter. Looks were secondary to a sound mind.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

But you also need to be careful of getting "too agressive" or too pushy dogs, i.e. a very "high drive" dog depending on what you want to get a GSD for.

I.E. if you want to train for competetive ScH you would want a very different type of temperament than if you want a friendly family pet!


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Yeah, I won't be doing any competitive anything. No showing or ScH or anything... although I would love to take lots of obedience classes, teach the dog many things to keep him busy and helpful, and *maybe* even do some agility for fun. I want a sound family dog, whose only "aggression" would be to bark at the door, bark at anyone who tries to bug me on my walks, bark or MAYBE bite if someone, say, broke into my house. But he has to be steady around kids and other animals and not go growling and snapping when I take him out around people. I want a confident dog but not SO high energy he has to run for miles a day. 

How can you tell from a puppy what their drive/nerves will be like when they are grown?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RESEARCH the breeder and the pups that have come from the breeder. I have a somewhat unstable nervey dog, that my husband surprised us with. It was the first litter for the breeder and I wouldn't have gone with the breeder if it was my choice. 
Though I love Onyx and don't regret having her, she has taught me so much! 
When I decided to get a pup for SchH(Onyx was not the temp for this), I looked at the past litters of the breeder, and noticed the consistancy of titles, and health. I was lucky, there are several members here with the breeders dogs, so it was easier for me to see the pleasure they all have with their companions. And from the first litter, to the G litter, there are so many special ones! 
I knew I wanted a working line, and there were a few great breeders that I was interested in, but it really came down to the sire's accomplishments and the breeders choice to use this sire for her program. 
I was soo fortunate to be able to be placed on the list for a pup. And I am blessed with my boy. 

Nobody really knows what a good dog they have, unless they have a challenging one to deal with first~sometimes they are taken for granted.


> Originally Posted By: cassadee7I've been reading on the aggression forum about dogs with "weak nerves." What exactly does this mean? Just a nervous, not-confident dog? More likely to snap?


 Yes: Anxious, fear aggressive and unpredictable, no confidence when placed in a stressful evironment.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

People (online mostly, not who have met her) have said they thought Bianca was "weak nerved" or a "soft" dog.
She did have a lack of confidence when I got her although that has improved and she was insecure (mostly, seemed to be very worried about whether I was mad at her or if I was going to punish her, if I told her "no" or "go lay down" she would tuck her head and tail for example.) 
HOWEVER she has never showed any sign of fear/aggression, is not unpredictable and is wonderful with kids and loves people. She does have some issues with barking at other dogs when on leash but she has improved a lot with this since I started working with her, and she is usually very good with other dogs when -off- leash.
She does have a good pedigree and comes from lines of all Schutzhund titled dogs (mostly Sch 2 or 3.)


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Yes, you do start with good genes, but then there are enviormental issues that affect puppies (especially at some critical growth stages in their lifes). 

I have tears in my eyes as I describe this....when Shoshi was a pup I had her crated initually when I was at work. G-d, I will never forgive myself for this....I didn't think anything about it when I had the 'guys' come over to replace the roof of our home. To do this they had to tear off the existing roofs, get all the way to the beams and rebuild the new roof. I went to work thinking nothing of it. My poor baby was left in that house while men walked above tearing and pulling and pounding and doing all the things one does when they remove a roof. I can only imagine the terror she must have felt all day being trapped in that crate while the world was being torn apart around her.

I didn't notice her fears right away, I remember thinking she just wanted to get away from the loud men but this definately changed my little girl. 

She has come a long way but she lost a lot of confidence with that. I would give anything to change what happened but we all know we can't change the past. But what I'm saying is there are critical time periods when a pup is developing and you need to be aware of these times and not make a mistake like I did.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7Yeah, I won't be doing any competitive anything. No showing or ScH or anything... although I would love to take lots of obedience classes, teach the dog many things to keep him busy and helpful, and *maybe* even do some agility for fun. I want a sound family dog, whose only "aggression" would be to bark at the door, bark at anyone who tries to bug me on my walks, bark or MAYBE bite if someone, say, broke into my house. But he has to be steady around kids and other animals and not go growling and snapping when I take him out around people. I want a confident dog but not SO high energy he has to run for miles a day.
> 
> How can you tell from a puppy what their drive/nerves will be like when they are grown?


Find a good breeder, tell her what you want, and let _her_ pick the right pup for you. If you want to do agility, go for a smaller bone GSD. As for being good with animals and kids, a lot of it will be up to you. Genetics help but you also have to socialize the pup well.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I, like Jane, have a weak nerved dog and a strong nerved dog. Moose, my lovely mutt dog is sweet as can be with us, but is scared of everything. This causes some challenging behavioral problems, resource guarding, fear aggression... Moose is one of the reasons that we decided to go with a good breeder rather than getting another rescue.

Bison (Indo vom Triton) is a working line shepherd and has very strong nerve. I could see the difference right away even from a pup. He didn't shy away from new experiences or people and if he was a little unsure all it took was a calm "It's ok" from me and he would be fine. He doesn't bark his head off at the mail man... I can give you lots more examples, but don't want to bore you.









I would disagree a little bit with codmaster. A high drive dog can certainly make a great pet. Bison is almost 4 and we only did basic obedience and "at home" work with him until a few months ago when we started doing Schutzhund. He is doing just fine with that too. A well bred GSD should be versatile enough to be a pet or do whatever work you want to do with it. A good breeder will know their litter well enough to select a dog with a drive level appropriate for you and your goals.

I am partial to working lines because of our past dog experiences that I won't go into. In a different thread, Brightelf described her experience with her working dog’s drive perfectly “It wasn't until I got my first working line GSD that I learned that ‘drive’ can mean a dog craves a sense of helping, of working for and with the handler.” And “I also learned that for dogs like this, sometimes the best reward is being permitted to get that next command that they are hoping for.” I can’t say it any better than that. There are many times that Bison just sits and stares at me like he is asking “What do you want me to do now?”

What is most important though is that whatever line you choose, select a breeder that is breeding within standard in both form and temperament. When we were searching we found a couple web pages and at least one dog book that had lists of questions to ask a breeder. They were very helpful.

That said, GSDs are not for everyone. You should expect that a well bred GSD will need attention. They are not couch potatoes. They need training, exercise, mental stimulation and basically a job to do. If you don’t provide that for them, they create their own activities and you probably won’t like them. 

Good luck with your search.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

with my last pup, i searched and researched breeders, got recommendations, parents supposidly had proven litters, and i got a very insecure fearish puppy....so even doing your research you still aren't 100% sure............. and believe me its alot of work, money and dedication to keep a dog like this.....frustrating at times, trying to figure out the triggers or the fear, counter condition work which never ends...............etc, etc........anyone thats had a dog like this can only relate...........


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

'Weak nerved' dogs for me means dogs that cannot handle pressure. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily aggressive or fear aggressive but they are not stable in every situation and their reaction may not be appropriate to the situation. These dogs can be managed successfully but it requires an experienced and compassionate handler and the right accommodation for the dog. I do believe that weak nerves are genetic and cannot be fixed but managed.

Also a weak nerved dog can come from any breeder, even the best out there, that's why puppies are such a gamble no matter how much homework had been done. 

I would research the lines before choosing a breeder. Also a good working line breeder won't eliminate aggression out of the dog since it's an integral part of the GSD temperament so it's nice to keep it in mind.

ETA I second what Debbie said because I can relate. The only guarantee is to get an older pup with known background that you can evaluate yourself.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Oksana is right puppie really are a gamble..the breeder can pick the pup out for you at 7-8 weeks old it could display all the right things, then at 4-5-6 months and on can change and be the opposite of the model puppy first thought to be stable......i honestly don't know how anyone can reall pick a pup at 8 weeks old and know for sure this is what its like.......unless as Oksana said the lines are totally solid with no surprises along the way...even then as put by someone that breeds."the genetic gods messed up"
if you want a sure thing get an older pup 6 months to a year.......


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07'Weak nerved' dogs for me means dogs that cannot handle pressure. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily aggressive or fear aggressive but they are not stable in every situation and their reaction may not be appropriate to the situation. These dogs can be managed successfully but it requires an experienced and compassionate handler and the right accommodation for the dog. I do believe that weak nerves are genetic and cannot be fixed but managed.
> 
> Also a weak nerved dog can come from any breeder, even the best out there, that's why puppies are such a gamble no matter how much homework had been done.


Agree! And unfortunately many of these will end up in a shelter, because they are too much for the average dog owner.

The foundation the breeder gives them before the pups first breath will help them to succeed. 
A dog from great lines, without the bio-sensor beginnings, etc will not thrive as one whose breeder is constantly nurturing the stimulation, socialization and exposing them to crate, travel and housetraining before they even go to their new homes.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Yep! Puppies are always a gamble. Even the best breeders have some in their litters with "issues". 

We just felt that the risk was lower with a breeder with a good rep, who has clear goals for their program that are in line with breed standards, and do the types of things that Jane explained.

Edited to add...

That is why you need to be educated about the problems GSDs can have and understand that when you get a pup you are giving it a forever home no matter what. Simple math, if you aren't prepared deal with anything nature could throw at you, you don't get a pup.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thank you for all the very insightful answers, I really appreciate it!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Remember the dog you PM'd me about? The one hiding behind the owner's legs? 

That is weak nerves. The dog could not handle the stress of a very normal, no threat, encounter with a stranger. At least the dog did not aggress and chose to attempt to escape instead. 

You will find weak nerves in every breed of dog. I think those dogs that are typically very low on the scale of liklihood to exhibit some aggression, you will tend to see more escape behavior. 

That escape behavior is very typical of the weak nerved dogs produced by this breeder. I had seen MANY of them in the waiting room at Hermston Vet.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

another thing to remember is that if someone were to get a weak nerved dog, and decide they don't have the time, or recources to work through it, its extremely hard to re-home. not many knowingly want to take on a dog like this, even if the breeder were to take it back, it would still be a hard dog to place. the dog could only go to an experienced home with the right person.......i think this is another big reason these dogs end up in rescue. also, alot of these dogs end up in abusive situations, which is extremely sad.........


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

And another reason why I am taking this really slow, and making sure when I get a pup I am READY and it is the right time in my life (not before my youngest is in Kindergarten) so that if, heaven forbid, I get a dog with problems, I can help them overcome and have a good life anyway. So I thank you for helping to educate me!!


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## krispifsu (Dec 23, 2007)

Coming from someone who also has a nervous dog - I would definitely reiterate the above advice of doing your research on breeders and the different lines of dogs...but also, do some research on the different stages of a dogs life and mostly importantly, find a trainer BEFORE you even get your pup. The puppy classes at the petstores are usually nothing more than an opportunity to socialize. Finding a great trainer, especially one that is experienced with GSD's, will be one of your biggest assets in keeping your new pup stable, engaged, exercised, and happy. I started with a trainer after we were having issues with our Lily, and while I don't always have time to attend reguarly, it gives me a great foundation to work from and help from an outside perspective as well. 

Good luck in your search!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, on the other end of the spectrum, don't sell yourself short! I see a lot of pet people that say they want "low drive, laid back, low energy...." Keep in mind that these are GSDs and they should be pretty energetic and that sound temperament comes with confidence. A confident, pushy puppy is not necessarily "too much to handle". There are plenty of working line dogs that come from top sport/work breedings and do just fine in "pet" homes. The dogs may or may not have the same drives, but even when they do it's also something that has to be developed and honed by the handler. That's why SchH is so much work. Even the best dogs do not come out of the box trained and refined! So I guess what I am saying is, I think ANY GSD puppy should be confident, outgoing, sure of himself, energetic, etc. Set yourself up for success by going with a good breeder so that the genetics are there, and then the rest is really what you make of it.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Any suggestions on finding a good trainer in my area (Tri-Cities, WA)?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

There is no experienced GSD trainer here regardless of what some may claim. There are some experienced GSD owners, though, they may steer you in the right direction (I don't mean myself LOL)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you should go and start observing classes now. no matter if someone recommends one or not, you have to click with the person, and believe in their way of thinking.....because believe me there are some bad ones out there, and for the life of me i have no idea how they even get people enrolled in their classes....the general public with labs, goldens might be able to sneak by, but you Need totally experienced guidence with these dogs.....


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje A confident, pushy puppy is not necessarily "too much to handle". There are plenty of working line dogs that come from top sport/work breedings and do just fine in "pet" homes.


I have that type of puppy (although not exactly top, his father is SchH2, mother is a CGC) and have had no problems with him living as a pet. In training classes, I've been told if you wanted a SchH dog, that's him. Still he does fine with OB, loved his touch of puppy agility (which we will start in the spring). Otto has his needs - lives for the ball - and we take care of those needs.

In a family with 3 kids (6y/o boy and 4 1/2 y/o b/g twins), I needed a confident outgoing dog. I have a personal preference for east german dogs although I also have a west german working female who's been wonderful with the kids.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje Keep in mind that these are GSDs and they should be pretty energetic and that sound temperament comes with confidence. A confident, pushy puppy is not necessarily "too much to handle". There are plenty of working line dogs that come from top sport/work breedings and do just fine in "pet" homes.


Exactly.









Take my Trent for example - his dam has her SchH1, while his sire is IPO3 VPG3, and they are all from working lines (West German). A good handful of people warned me away from that litter, telling me it will be "too much dog to handle", or that "working line German shepherds are too tough for first time owners". I don't find this to be a very accurate statement. Perhaps the working lines, or even GSDs in general, aren't good dogs for some, but I personally have gained a great appreciation for the pushiness and perfect amount of drive (for me!) in my German shepherd. 

There is no doubt that he was a pushy, extremely self confident puppy. He had his own ideas, and wasn't afraid of a darn thing, but it's made training and raising and living with him so much easier, rather than harder. His eagerness to please and willingness to be doing something is a great attribute. And the thing about pushy dogs, even some of the high drive GSDs, is that they aren't on their toes and jumping about 24/7. Trent has a clear idea of appropriate behavior indoors vs. behavior during training, or playing. He can control himself and understand what he needs to be doing, and when.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Cassadee, even tho I was an officer in the training club there and I have no problem recommending them, there are a few people that are not knowledgeable about GSD's. There was a move a foot before I moved to ban Havoc and I because he nipped my arm while running agility in drive. I got in his way while doing front crosses and did so repeatedly which frustrated him and he nipped typical herding behavior. I got upset because another person had her dog loose and it ran into the course area at the same time this happened. I chewed on her and told her Havoc was a high drive herding dog and if he is running in drive like that he COULD have chased her dog and she needed to keep her dog off course and where it belonged. This ws interpreted as "aggrseeive dog" and he was asked to be muzzled and on a long line for any off eash exercises. 

I was stunned at this and it caused a huge row in the club almost to the point of division. I think it only stopped when I left for my move. 

I still fel like it is a decent club tho for some things. There are just a few folk to not listen too. Debbi H knows who they are. She is the GSD person I told you about that runs tracking. She is pretty sharp. 

Meodow Hills Vet offers puppy classes that are very good. If you are interested in agility go to Yakima. Spokane Dog Training Club is also very good even tho it is hike.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks Kathy, I appreciate the input! I'm sorry you had to go through that... seems like people go overboard when their emotions are running high and that can make a mess of a club (any club, not just dog clubs!) I will definitely check in with Debbi when I am ready to get involved.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

There were a few other people involved too and another dog had previously bitten another dog as well. In that incident, both dog owners were at fault. The biting dog (Aussie)was known as a dog that had space issues and the owner of the dog that got bit (Kerry Blue Terrier)did not heed the warnings and let her dog into the reactive dog's space. The Kerry Blue was an overly friendly pushy dog that really annoyed the Aussie. 

Long story short the Aussie was blamed, the owner disciplined in secret by the training committee. I was the VP and never knew about it until the owner of the Aussie told me about it. Althought I did not condone the dog's actions, I stood in her defense as the club knew her dog had space issues and she was very good about letting people know that. The owner of the kerry knew it and failed to heed it. In addition AKC and club procedure was violated becasue she got no hearing. I wanted her to have the hearing she deserved. When I informed the Pres and rest of the board the fun and games with me started. The Havoc nip just played into their hands. Thankfully that board of directors is now gone through the club election process and the sitting board now is far more positive and interested in understanding behavior. So I think the club will prosper and grow and will get much better about understanding dog behavior. 

I came very close to leaving the club over this incident and for me moving resolved the issue. I am still a member and maintain some close relations with other members. it is a decent club and as long as one person is not teaching puppy class it will be a good class. Debbi knows who that person is too. Same person that banned the Aussie actually.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Hey Kathy, 

They have a new training director!!! It is a step in the right direction but she has her own biases against different breeds. What breeder in Hermiston area is producing "fearful" dogs? PM me if you want. 

I have told Cassadee that she is more than welcome to come out to the Sch club meet the members and the dogs. The members there have dogs from VonMarionHaus, TimberHaus K9 and another one. I also told her to get in contact with Debbie so she could meet her dogs and Oksana's Anton to check out their dogs from their breeders. 

I do use CBDTC and will be starting to teach classes there hopefully come spring. I will specialize in Large dog classes and they are kind of starting to divide the classes in OB at least. 

That said, the Sch club meets every week and we are more than willing to help someone with OB. I also have started offering classes on my own for OB training, nothing fancy just basic manners and CGC etc. There is not ANYONE in the Tri-Cities that is a "specialist" in GSDs. I can tell you who to stay away from, Kathy may have already warned you on him though. 

I can say that my breeder's dogs are not weak nerved and that is important for me, VERY important. There was a breeder in Hermiston that is no longer there that bred some weak nerved dogs. Kathy may have told you about her. PM me for more info on them.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The weak nerved dogs showing up at Hermiston Vet came from the America showline breeeder in Milton Freewater. 

Alison is the new training director and she does have her bias too. I wish there was a GSD club close by there but there is not. There were a few folk that tried to start one right after I got there but it fizzled. They had called it Three Rivers GSD Club. When move abck I may just start that up again or maybe a UKC training club.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Isn't Alison that vet that taught CGC class I took with Anton? If so she did have her bias. I do and will go to Training club because I believe in classes but I use my judgment now. I do not allow anyone to touch my dog and if I don't agree with the trainer I just do my own training. I wish Kathy didn't move because she was the only modern style trainer I've known of and I liked her style. I hope Courtney will be a good trainer and will make a difference.

I'm glad to hear that SchH club becomes more open and friendly, it's a big deal for me. 

Judge doesn't have weak nerves, he's one of the most stable GSD around here. And I know because every time I see a dog resembling a GSD I run that direction and talk with the owner LOL


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks Oksana. 

I use positive reinforcement and Balabanov style training as well as utilize clickers. 

I can say that someone was not so nice to Oksana a few years ago in the schutzhund club. They were a little harsh and rude to her. I'm still sorry for that. 

Alison does have her bias, most definetely. I experienced it with Judge recently. Let me know Kathy if you want to start a UKC club when you get back here as I know a ton of OTHER people that would support it. 

This area is really lacking in dog things when you compare it with Yakima that is smaller than here and has better training etc. 

Courtney


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You are right about that and if you want to do agility GO TO YAKIMA! Stay away from CBDTC unless you are just looking to practice. Go to Joann Guhlke at Gone to the Dogs Agility in Yakima for your training. 

I always thought very highly of Alison unltil she commented at a trainig meeting that Kayos was aggressive. KAYOS????


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think you get a pup from a reputable breeder and
you secure your dogs nerves. you build up your
dogs confidence. don't blame your dog or
it's breeder for something in it's nerves
you don't like. you shape your dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can have looks, sound nerves and whatever else?
you can have what ever it is in a dog you want. that dog
is out there.



> Originally Posted By: RacerXThat was one of the main reasons I went with a reputable breeder with at least 4 generations back to the litter. Looks were secondary to a sound mind.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Somebody on here said that it is a gamble with puppies and it is a gamble. You can have a strong nerved/high drive dog in the same litter as a weak nerved dog. You never know how the litter is going to turn out. 8 out of 9 puppies can be strong nerved and the last one is the weaker puppy. It can happen to all of us. 

Another member said that a lot of people don't know how to handle those that are weak nerved and that is exactly the reason why I would never give up my sable. 
It is not his fault that he is the way he is. He was made that way and also has come a long way the past half a year. Who knows, maybe he will fully recover from what he went through, maybe he wont. I am certain and a 100% positive that he would end up in a shelter if I gave him to somebody else, or maybe wors, even put down just because they could not handle him. 

He is not aggressive and I am suprised he didn't end up aggressive. He can be dominant and gets stronger and stronger but at the same time he's still traumatized. So yeah, they don't have to be born weak nerved. All it takes is one human scumbag beating and abusing them to the point where they break.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

it is a HUGE commitment to keep a weak nerved dog....its also very frustrating at times 3 steps forward and two steps back.....just when you think you have mastered something it creeps back again....especially when you have one that is unpredicatable with people.....you have to be constantly aware of situations and the dogs body lauguage in order to handle things.....any visitors or people interactions have to be controlled.......alot of people don't understand and they look at you like your crazy when you say "don't look at my dog, don't touch him, don't talk to him" let him decide to come to you.......and if he does....still, don't look at him touch him, or talk to him.......you can carefully toss a treat and maybe eventually let him take one from you....
everyday people are not dog experts. and then some people might cross the line just to be funny, and if you know that you have to put the dog away so you don't set them up for trouble.....

its a lifetime of never letting your guard down........i think people who commit to this way of life deserve a big applause...and i also think if a breeder was worth their weight in gold they would also be thankful someone was willing to keep a pup like this and give them a chance at life and be in a loving home where someone can do the right thing with them....

debbie


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Quote:alot of people don't understand and they look at you like your crazy when you say "don't look at my dog, don't touch him, don't talk to him" let him decide to come to you.......and if he does....still, don't look at him touch him, or talk to him.......you can carefully toss a treat and maybe eventually let him take one from you....


Oh you are so so right. When I picked up Yukon to come to our place we ran into a very ugly situation. It was summertime and around evening I wanted to take him out for a walk. All our neighbors were out and despite the pet policy they had all their dogs off the leash. 
So he was the new puppy in the neighborhood. 

However, they didn't ask for permission and what happened is that five adults ran over "OOH WHAT A CUTE PUPPY!!!" came down on him from above, reaching out and he totally freaked out and wanted to run away. I told them to stay away from him, to not touch him and to just leave him alone. 
They all knew it better and everytime I ran across any of them they tried to touch him over and over again without permission.
I just got him and I did not even get any chance to work with him and they threw us back a thousand steps.

I hate people that don't ask. They don't know anything about the dog and do more damage than they do any good. 
Things would have went a lot easier if people would start using their common sense.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if people would just listen......it does take one bad appisode to set you back..........

if it were a perfect world i would prefer to surround myself and Sam with knowledgeable dog people who understand what to do.....but since it isn't it makes life a bit more interesting.........

as i was thinking the other day..its almost like owning a wild animal like a wolf or something.......people certainly would think twice about approaching a wolf or a bear.....but because its a dog the gerneral public just thinks oh look at the nice dog and exactly as you said mrs k, they approach standing over the dog, even try to pat the top of the head, in their face saying oh nice doggie.........general humans are alot like small children in that way. they see and act without thinking......


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

after several trainers I finally found some that were experienced with problem GSDs. You CAN train a dog like this to stay in control but i don't know if you can ever change their personality.It is like working with a shy kid-you can bring them out to a cerain extent.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats exactly right.........Suzy

you pretty much have to just except them for what they are, get the right guidence, work with what you have, and hope you can at least get them to a point that they can be semi-comfortable in their own skin......

like i said its a Huge commitment.....and not for everyone...


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

it has it's pay-offs. Paige's old vet said she never saw a turn around in a dog like she saw in Paige. I have had her for 11 yrs and wouldn't trade her for the best bred GSD in the world.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

some dogs do turn around and others really can't be a true companion because they are to busy looking around seeing possible threats.............you really have to feel bad for those, because it muct stink to think that way all the time.....never able to truely relax....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebsome dogs do turn around and others really can't be a true companion because they are to busy looking around seeing possible threats.............you really have to feel bad for those, because it muct stink to think that way all the time.....never able to truely relax....


That is why I am so thankfull that Yukon is turning around. He's still watching every now and then. There are still situations where he is unstable but he's making progress, progress and more progress. The only thing he'll probably never recover from is Schutzdienst that is where they abused him. They wanted to make him harder and did the opposite. I wished I had the chance to make _them_ harder.

Karma, it'll hit them one day, it's all coming around and you get what you give, right?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats a REAL shame that Yukon got a bad wrap from those people, i know it can happen and does happen every day....you have to be SO careful where they go, who handles them, etc....or if it was something that happened before you got them, etc.

in my case no abuse, just weak nerves....never had a bad experience...etc.......i am learning the triggers and trying to work things out....the thing about Sam is that even in a room full of people or in the agility field he will perform for me and do anything i want..i thing i want even if he's a bit nervous with the surroundings. i think he figures if he does this thing that makes mom so happy he can leave after he does it....LOL!
my problem is one on one with people, even people he knows....they can be standing there giving him treats he'll sit right close to them, he'll be fine for a minute or so, then he'll growl and back up with hackles. weirdest thing i have ever seen. but then he seems to recover because he'll go back for more.....its the eye contact they make with him that sets it off mostly.....and NO its not a playful thing, he's Very uncomfortable by his body lauguage...


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I look at my Max and I have a hard time believing he is same nut ball I adopted 10 years ago. They do turn around with committment, work and patience. 

Sadly, I see a return to the old Max when his Cushing's flares up.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

health issues are certainly something to consider when there is not alot of progress with exposure and training. which is why i am considering possible things.....


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWYou are right about that and if you want to do agility GO TO YAKIMA! Stay away from CBDTC unless you are just looking to practice. Go to Joann Guhlke at Gone to the Dogs Agility in Yakima for your training.
> 
> I always thought very highly of Alison unltil she commented at a trainig meeting that Kayos was aggressive. KAYOS????


lol Yeah, kayos???? Mean????? yeah right lol lol lol 
she definetely has her biases and unfortunately they include GSDs BUT she is fine with Red my APBT. I just don't think that anyone dare say anything bad about Red, as they know I'd leave that club in a heartbeat, that and Red is perfect, or well close to it. 

Courtney


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Red is perfect!!! Kayos is pretty darn good too.


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## Painful Pleasure (5 mo ago)

shilohsmom said:


> Yes, you do start with good genes, but then there are enviormental issues that affect puppies (especially at some critical growth stages in their lifes).
> 
> I have tears in my eyes as I describe this....when Shoshi was a pup I had her crated initually when I was at work. G-d, I will never forgive myself for this....I didn't think anything about it when I had the 'guys' come over to replace the roof of our home. To do this they had to tear off the existing roofs, get all the way to the beams and rebuild the new roof. I went to work thinking nothing of it. My poor baby was left in that house while men walked above tearing and pulling and pounding and doing all the things one does when they remove a roof. I can only imagine the terror she must have felt all day being trapped in that crate while the world was being torn apart around her.
> 
> ...


I had something similar with my mal. I understand and share your guilt, but this is so important for people to understand. I hope everyone takes this to heart and yoyr experience helps prevent it for somebody else.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

2009 thread


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

interesting to read the past members posts. Glad this was ressurected.


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## Painful Pleasure (5 mo ago)

I am looking at a 5 month old mal girl now so wphave been reading any and all I can to make sure I make the right choice. Despite being old, there's some timeless information here.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Painful Pleasure said:


> I am looking at a 5 month old mal girl now so wphave been reading any and all I can to make sure I make the right choice. Despite being old, there's some timeless information here.


That's always a good idea.There's a wealth of information in these old threads.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Painful Pleasure said:


> I am looking at a 5 month old mal girl now so wphave been reading any and all I can to make sure I make the right choice. Despite being old, there's some timeless information here.


Bailiff use to post here a ways back and he has accomplished a lot with his mal. You might try filtering through his threads/posts.








Crank is US Mondioring National Champion!


Crank Ot Vitosha and I won the level 3 USMRA national championship! Pictures and video as well as details still forthcoming. If you want to watch the livestream it was on Marvel K9 Ringsports facebook page. Super pumped!




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Painful Pleasure (5 mo ago)

Thank you! I will do that.
I'm getting a bit overwhelmed with potential puppies. My psa trainer has put the word out and I've been contacted by a few breeders who are accomplished with impressive pedigrees. The 5 month old sort of fell into my lap early. She's almost too good to be true, and that makes me wary.

She's been raised outdoor and barn, crate trained but not housebroken. I've brought dogs in from the kennel whe I bred years ago, so don't see this being a problem and I don't really want to go through the 2-6 month puppy stage again if I don't have to, or wonder how they will turn out.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

P.P. I think you've done the right thing. I adopted a pup at 8 weeks - parents had good nerves, pup showed good nerves when it was young - at its 8 week evaluation, did not shy at the noise test (loud banging of metal pots and pans.) Then, suddenly at 8 months it was afraid of EVERYTHING! When I took her to obedience class, she'd hide under my chair and wouldn't even take treats from me! 

I worked hard with her, but she didn't improve, and was still really fearful at age 2, so I rehomed her to a pet home, where nothing was going to be demanded of her. I had hoped to show her, and use her as a service dog, because she had an aunt who was one of the best service dogs I'd ever encountered. HUGE disappointment...


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

I think it’s important to know the dogs several generations back if possible. That said, there can be a lot of variation within a litter. For example, about 20 years ago we adopted 2 purebred female siblings that were probably under a year and they were total opposites - one was by nature very confident, strong willed, and drivey while the other was much “softer” and more timid but also more affectionate and only wanted to please. 

Anyway, we recently got a new puppy and I’ll share my experiences. One criteria of mine was how the breeder’s dogs were trained. I avoided any breeders that used e-collars because I believe they suppress a lot of behaviors and drives and you don’t get a true picture of their temperament. Some breeders have private group FB pages for their puppy families and joining those can give you a lot of info about the types of dogs being produced, especially if you’re looking for a lower drive family companion rather than a higher drive working type.

I think there is a lot to be said about meeting the litter and playing a role in the puppy picking process with some guidance from the breeder. Our trainer gave me the advice of picking a puppy that would come back to me on its own for more attention and pets (probably indicating it’s interest in people). I prefer a puppy with a “soft” temperament but our trainer also warned me against getting one that was too soft because it takes them a lot longer to recover from stressful situations. The puppy I ended up bringing home was probably softer than the trainer would have liked but we have come a long way with 3 months of positive reinforcement training and confidence building and I believe he’s going to turn out to be an amazing dog with all of the work we are putting into him even though we’ve had to go at a slower pace than perhaps with a “harder” type dog. 

Honestly, as our trainer told me, it’s really all to some extent a crapshoot. I believe a lot has to do with genetics. Some dogs are just born good no matter how they were raised and nothing fazes them. Whereas I’ve definitely met dogs that were raised in wonderful environments and had a lot of socialization but still had major behavioral issues that I believe were genetic.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Even litter placement can make a big difference. My gal- dog was the smallest of a litter of 11. When I visited the pups, 10 proceeded to try and untie my sneakers. The littlest pup stayed back and watched. If I brought a pup home it had to be a less impulsive one. I played with her alone and she did well. 
I brought her home and our big-boy became her role model. It took me longer than it should to realize I should have taken her out on her own adventures more often. It gave her a delay in learning to be confident in her own choices. Sadly she is our only dog now, but she is more steady after being forced to make her own decisions. 
So in this experience, how much was genetics, how much environment, how much just " the luck of the draw".


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ctu24 said:


> Honestly, as our trainer told me, it’s really all to some extent a crapshoot. I believe a lot has to do with genetics. Some dogs are just born good no matter how they were raised and nothing fazes them. Whereas I’ve definitely met dogs that were raised in wonderful environments and had a lot of socialization but still had major behavioral issues that I believe were genetic.


I raised all of my dogs essentially the same. Freeway was a certified therapy dog, Sabi was a patrol dog, Shadow is a lunatic who vomits from stress and bites people.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> I raised all of my dogs essentially the same. Freeway was a certified therapy dog, Sabi was a patrol dog, Shadow is a lunatic who vomits from stress and bites people.


Yep, raised all mine the same way too. This last one has been fearful, and it’s maddening.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Nerves are a genetic trait. While you can change the expression to some degree, you can’t change what’s there. You can’t make them better or worse. You can try to condition, recondition, or desensitize. It’s important when looking at the dig to understand that certain traits can appear as something else before a dog matures or in general.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Nerves are a genetic trait. While you can change the expression to some degree, you can’t change what’s there. You can’t make them better or worse. You can try to condition, recondition, or desensitize. It’s important when looking at the dig to understand that certain traits can appear as something else before a dog matures or in general.


This was my struggle. Shadow started life as a normal, spunky, go get em pup. A few traumatic experiences at exactly the wrong times, right smack in fear periods, changed everything. Made much worse by continued advice to keep pushing her and she would get past it. Which is what most people here advise BTW. I walked her every single day for two years, exposing her to all the things that terrified her and fighting her every step of the way. I kept saying that it was stupid and she clearly hated it, and I kept getting told that she just needed more exposure and that she would get over it.
It took me years to figure out that I had damaged my dog, to rebuild her trust and to find a way to manage her that didn't continue to crush her. That was lost time with a great dog that I can never get back. She was almost 6 when I finally realized that I needed to stop expecting that someday she would be normal. This is her normal and I needed to let go of my expectations and start working with the dog I had. She's great now. We have little outbursts but I manage them. She isn't very big, if she gets too stupid I just pick her up and leave. But for the most part she is fine, we practice obedience, we stick to her comfy routine and we carry on. She's happy, I'm happy and everyone else can go pound sand.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> This was my struggle. Shadow started life as a normal, spunky, go get em pup. A few traumatic experiences at exactly the wrong times, right smack in fear periods, changed everything. Made much worse by continued advice to keep pushing her and she would get past it. Which is what most people here advise BTW. I walked her every single day for two years, exposing her to all the things that terrified her and fighting her every step of the way. I kept saying that it was stupid and she clearly hated it, and I kept getting told that she just needed more exposure and that she would get over it.
> It took me years to figure out that I had damaged my dog, to rebuild her trust and to find a way to manage her that didn't continue to crush her. That was lost time with a great dog that I can never get back. She was almost 6 when I finally realized that I needed to stop expecting that someday she would be normal. This is her normal and I needed to let go of my expectations and start working with the dog I had. She's great now. We have little outbursts but I manage them. She isn't very big, if she gets too stupid I just pick her up and leave. But for the most part she is fine, we practice obedience, we stick to her comfy routine and we carry on. She's happy, I'm happy and everyone else can go pound sand.


So this is why I rarely give advice on nervy dogs and also why I rarely work with them. I'm just not that good a person. I train dogs that I like to train with problems that I like to solve. 

I live with a nerve bag Cane Corso and that's enough for me 😁


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> So this is why I rarely give advice on nervy dogs and also why I rarely work with them. I'm just not that good a person. I train dogs that I like to train with problems that I like to solve.
> 
> I live with a nerve bag Cane Corso and that's enough for me 😁


I get that. If any of the dozen or so trainers I took her to had recognized what she was I would have been further ahead. Granted she is extreme but still....
She would not have been my choice, but I'm glad I have her and she has taught me tons.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I just couldn't cope with my weak-nerved dog, either. I have to confess - I didn't have the patience. One day she'd be fine with a person who fed her treats, then the next day, she'd meet the same lady walking down the sidewalk and totally FREAK when she stopped to pet her. The lady didn't understand, either, so I had to force myself between the two of them to make her back away. 😥 

I guess I'm lucky she wasn't a fear-biter - that would have been REALLY bad!

She was so unpredictable, too. She spent the first 8 weeks of her life living with a mini-pin, so she was used to small dogs. Then, one day, when she was 2 years old, I'm walking along, and little 8 lb. puppy comes running over to greet us. She freaked out so badly she yanked the leash out of my hand!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> So this is why I rarely give advice on nervy dogs and also why I rarely work with them. I'm just not that good a person. I train dogs that I like to train with problems that I like to solve.
> 
> I live with a nerve bag Cane Corso and that's enough for me 😁


for sure!! Been there...done that. No patience or desire to do it again. The nervy dogs love my husband. He's very ohhhmmmmm. I just can't.


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## Painful Pleasure (5 mo ago)

Car2ner, I think I made exactly the same mistake with my reactive boy. 

My 5 month old girl prospect just ended. My trainer (a PSA trainer), had reservations but wasn't quite at the thumbs down until we discovered a chipped canine. I spent some time today looking at dental costs and that tipped the scales too far. She's very freindly and outgoing and would make a wonderful pet. She'd probably excel at agility and many activities, but I'd worry every time she missed and I heard the teeth snap shut, "Did she break the tooth?" 

I've already got a dog I need to worry about.

Once I made the decision, I was good with it. My trainer may have found a potential 9 wk old girl. I really wanted older, but thats very rare. He knows the breeder, has a boy from the current litters Dad (and that boy is just about my favourite malinois), and his apprentice just got the girls littermate last week. The person who reserved her had some health issue and couldn't take her. Might be another too good to be true thing, but this time, the trainer is doing all the due diligence so I'll have no emotional investment unless she looks good.

Another trainer told me today, treat every malinois puppy like they're reactive. Over socialize them and expose them to everything you can. When you've done all you can, think of more and do it again. A year ago I would have chuckled, now I plan I doing exactly that!!!


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