# Belgain shepherd nips / bites son



## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

We adopted Baloo last Thurs from a santuary. He is 2 years old. We met him as a family twice and there were no issues. He gets on well with my wife and daughter.

When my son 16 arrived home last Thurs, the Baloo barked at my son. I ignored this and put it down to excitment. A few mins later he bit my son on his hand. No blood was drawn but light marks were visible.
He has since biten my son twice.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. Is it some kind of alpha pack behaviour going on?
My son comes across as nervous to dogs so I wonder if the dog is picking up on this?
Apart from this, Baloo is great. 

The santuary have advised us to ensure that my son feeds Baloo all the time and this should change the dynamic between them. 

Any other advice please?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

What is his body language like around your son, specifically leading up to a bite?

Is there growling, lips curling back with exposed teeth?

How does your son feel about all this? Is he nervous, upset? Does he like the dog?


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Dotbat215 said:


> What is his body language like around your son, specifically leading up to a bite?
> 
> Is there growling, lips curling back with exposed teeth?
> 
> How does your son feel about all this? Is he nervous, upset? Does he like the dog?


Baloo does not show the same affection to my son. He seems a more tense.
No growls or curling.
My son was initially very nervous, not surprising as he's been bitten a few times. He now seems more relaxed, but I keep Baloo on a lead when my son is near as suggested by the santuary. He does like Baloo but is upset at what's happened.

Thanks for taking time to reply, Dotbat.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You've had the dog less than a week. What do you know about Belgian shepherds? Is this a working line malinois or another variety?


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> You've had the dog less than a week. What do you know about Belgian shepherds? Is this a working line malinois or another variety?


Here he is. That's all I've been told about him. I had a GSD before but did not have these issues. 
He came from a farm so will need lots of excercise.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You plan to keep a dog that bites your son? What happens when he bites a friend of your son's? How well did the foster evaluate the dog? Why did he land in a sanctuary?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hard to say, but looks like a malinois, more show/pet line type, but really impossible to say without seeing a pedigree. 

Malinois are bred to bite stuff, they are reactive, they can be protective of their personal space in ways you wouldn't expect. They are dogs that need a savvy owner who is willing to put in time, training, set boundaries and be a dependable leader. They can be nervy if poorly bred or even if not, it happens. 

Wonderful dogs in the right homes, but they are not "normal" dogs, by most people's standards. When they are good they are very very good, but when they are bad... 

Separate dog and son. Look into training. 

Do you have any history on him? I don't want to scare you, malinois are incredible dogs and my breed of choice, but nerves can certainly be a problem, and if he is nervy, you'll need to make some decisions about next steps and if you want to keep the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg and Baillif ... keep those two in mind, mostly like there are others but those two I know better. 

Most likely the shelter you got him from, is going to be a waste of time for further info on the dog's behaviour?? Most shelters don't really have a freaking clue about a dog's behaviour ... aside from the fairly obvious. At the bare minimum however they should be able to tell you ... if the dog lived with kids??? I don't do dogs and kids ... so bare that in mind.

However ... you just got this dog and somethings are basic. The dog does not know you and as far as he is considered ... "your home" is just another "foster home" been there done this.

At the minimum, you should follow the "suggestion" outlined in the first link in this thread. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html 

You're going to need to incorporate "better management practices" ... exercise "alone" is not going to be a "total solution" for "issues." And the old, my other dog thing??? Yeah that's how people get in trouble (first hand experiance on that one) ... this is not your other dog ... work with the dog in front of you ... welcome aboard ... and he is handsome by the way.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Maybe look for an schutz/ipo club near you? I think having an educated, objective 3rd party get involved in these cases can be invaluable. 

If there are no clubs nearby, see if you can find a Mal rescue...I imagine they'll know trainers who specialize in the breed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Hire a trainer to come to the house when everyone is home. We can only guess from here. He doesn't look very Malinois to me. A first bite can happen but a second one? Unless you are very experienced (but then the second bite wouldn't have happened) this dog is probably too much for you. Or you will have to put a lot of time, effort and money in it. If this is not what you had in mind, I would find him a good home with the help of a trainer, where he can thrive according to his breed. Many rescues are not correctly evaluating their dogs, yet the adopters take their info serious. Do not take him back to the rescue.
He looks beautiful though.


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## Ozzieleuk (Mar 23, 2014)

Knightrider,

I like Baloo, he's Mr. Serious isn't he.  Sharp looking dog and I wouldn't give up on him after this incident. Has he bit anyone else besides your son? 

My first GSD was a 5 yr. old retired K9. He was an awesome dog and most friendly up to a point when one day someone came over to the house with a friend of mine to help me with a project. I could introduce anyone to him and he'd be just fine. The guy that came along to help us was tossing his ball for him during a break and I thought--he's fine, no worries. But when the guy walked up to King to pet him, King lowered his head and walked away; then King turned around and nipped the guy in the butt crack and drew blood. That's the only time that ever happened; it scared me too!! 

What's that have to do with your Malinois? Well, something about the person like a scent or their voice may trigger a dog to nip or bite someone, maybe because of a very bad experience. That's about the only thing I could make of this. 
Make check back with the rescue and found out any background history about your boy. He may need some work with a pro, but I never had anyone work with any of my dogs. If they have a bond with you and completely trust you; they are trainable and can be adapted to just about anything.

I know for a fact though, after working around military dogs from different countries that some dogs are just plain "monsters" and they are not ever going to be a family pet except for maybe one or two people. I've seen some bad wounds on guys from just training or playing with their working dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Hire a trainer to come to the house when everyone is home. We can only guess from here. He doesn't look very Malinois to me. A first bite can happen but a second one? Unless you are very experienced (but then the second bite wouldn't have happened) this dog is probably too much for you. Or you will have to put a lot of time, effort and money in it. If this is not what you had in mind, I would find him a good home with the help of a trainer, where he can thrive according to his breed. Many rescues are not correctly evaluating their dogs, yet the adopters take their info serious. Do not take him back to the rescue.
> He looks beautiful though.


Oh ... don't take him back to "that" rescue ... that is a valid point ... no reason to think ... they would not screw up again.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If a dog bit my son, I'm sorry, the dog would go straight back to the place it came from. My son's well being, physically and mentally, is a lot more important to me than a new dog. And now he's bitten your son three times? And he's still there? Sorry, I'm just being honest.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Did your son never meet the dog as part of your family? 

He has bitten him 3 times? 

I'm sorry. But this is a deal breaker. Your child's safety must come first. 

What happens if it escalates and causes actually injury to your child? What, do you tell the Dr that the last 3 bites didn't break the skin? Seriously. 

Not sure why,and it's none of my business, your son was a new person to the dog. Maybe he lives at school or with his mother. If it's the latter, is he going to tell her your new dog bit him 3 times?? How is that going to go over? How would you feel getting that news? 

I am not saying this is a bad unfixable dog. I am saying that your home is now not safe for your child and that IS a fixable solution. Return the dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Deb said:


> If a dog bit my son, I'm sorry, the dog would go straight back to the place it came from. My son's well being, physically and mentally, is a lot more important to me than a new dog. And now he's bitten your son three times? And he's still there? Sorry, I'm just being honest.


I agree. How will the son feel knowing the parents value a newly rescued dog over their own child? I'm appalled so many said to keep the dog without taking the son's feelings into account. The OP said her son is already afraid of the dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The son is 16, not a young child. 

But I do understand where you are coming from, Deb.

I tend to think once a dog tries a behavior, and it works, the dog will keep doing it. They do what works for them. 

It's next to impossible to advise the OP without seeing video or actually seeing the dog live in action.

If the OP is invested in working with the dog, make sure the dog does not have a chance to nip the son again, and seek out a reputable trainer. This board can help you find one.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Teens don't need to feel safe at home? I love rescuing in theory but this kind of thing turns people off to rescues in general.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I just wouldn't be comfortable if my child had to worry in the house. Dog would be gone to a more appropriate home.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Muskeg, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Sixteen is still a child and should not have to live in a house afraid of what a new dog might do. The next bite could cause serious injury. Aside from that, what happens when the son or daughter have friends over? Or the parents have friends over who have a child? The tension in the house is going to go up due to worry over the dog biting the son. The dog is going to sense the tension and that will make it tense. This is the kind of thing that can sadly, escalate to a sad conclusion.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I fostered a dog that could not tolerate young people. The dog eventually went to an all adult household and did very well there.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I totally understand not wanting to keep a dog that nips any household member- adult or child.

But in the dog's eyes this is no child. This is a young adult male and that could be part of the problem. Which may matter not at all, if a member of the household is getting nipped by the dog, that is of course not OK. 

I'd advise the OP again, to keep the dog from having any opportunity to nip the son, no access at all, and to get an evaluation from a trainer. A good trainer experienced with this type of dog. That's the best I can do without more information.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I'd keep him. Hire a trainer... let your son train him. Good for relationship and confidence (for both of them). In the meantime continue to be proactive and manage the situation. Hand feed meals... no direct and prolonged eye contact, physical restraining or manipulating etc etc. positive and relaxed interactions only until you have more guidance.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

KnightRider said:


> We adopted Baloo last Thurs from a santuary. He is 2 years old. We met him as a family twice and there were no issues. He gets on well with my wife and daughter.
> 
> When my son 16 arrived home last Thurs, the Baloo barked at my son. I ignored this and put it down to excitment. A few mins later he bit my son on his hand. No blood was drawn but light marks were visible.
> He has since biten my son twice.
> ...


Hi, I think this is nothing more than the two not really knowing each other yet. I would spend some quality time with your son and the dog and you included. Take some long walks and have your son feed him treats, have your son throw a few balls and let the dog fetch them. Just let them both have fun together. I think this will pass once they get to know each other better. I don't think this is very serious yet, it can be, but if they spend good quality fun times together it will pass.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It's pretty obvious people posting here to saying to keep this dog don't have children. I can't even imagine picking a dog you don't even know over one's child no mattter the age. If this is the belief of most of this forum's members, I have to question whether I want to stay here. The dog isn't just unsure of this boy, it bit the boy three times according to the OP. Is it really even a question? You all really think a little bonding time is going to make up for the parents not protecting their son? At this point, it has very little to do with the dog and everything to do with the kind of relationship they want to have with their child when he is an adult.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^no, but some of us were children and teens... who were bitten by family dogs, turned out fine, well adjusted, work with dogs professionally now, and harbor no ill feelings towards their parents.

3, non serious bites, on a 16yr old. Granted #2 and #3 shouldn't have happened, poor management, but if they like the dog and want to put in the work - I don't see a reason not to.

We have very very little information about these incidents. Keep that in mind.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I called my dad tonight for something unrelated then ventured to ask what he or my mom thought regarding some of the bites I received as a child (I don't recall any that broke skin)... if getting rid of the dogs was ever considered. His words "yeah right, you would have had a fit if we got rid of the dogs". Which leads me to suggest to the OP - ask your son what he's comfortable with. Empower him and make him a part of the decision. Ask your daughter if she's still comfortable after knowing what happened to her brother. None of us can speak for you, your family, or more importantly him!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I grew up in a different type of environment, dogs that bit, especially children got put down. As I'm getting older I have different opinions on it, and am in no way saying put the dog down. But I know in my household I wouldn't be keeping this dog. It's a brand new dog and would be a deal breaker for me, if a family member was uncomfortable or scared of the dog. I'd be rehoming it personally. Had a dog on a trial run from a shelter, she wasn't getting along with my dogs and tried killing a cat, so I took her back(my shelter only has 0-6ish dogs at any given time). Now I have found a dog who gets along with my dogs and cats. Not to say the first dog couldn't have adjusted but at the time I had no interest in dealing with an aggressive dog, especially one that would do beautifully and was ready for a single animal household. 

Then again I don't know the background of what's going on before each of these bites happen. But regardless of why the dog is biting, other than in IPO ect. A dog should not be biting people. Don't give him a chance to do it and if that means a muzzle so be it. I get the dog is new but that does not excuse biting people, provided said people are not purposely antagonizing dog. 

I don't do IPO or anything similar so I have a very no nonsense attitude about dogs teeth on people. Immediate correction(not violent) from me. If they are playing and get too rough they get a cool down from play. Codi used to be very careless with where she is biting but now I watch her take care to not put teeth on people. If I put my hands on places she didn't like or surprised her, she would turn fast with her mouth open, but wasn't trying to bite me. Now she turns fast but licks or nudges with her nose. So you can work with it if that's what your are determined to do, but there needs to not be a 4th or 5th! Don't let it escalate basically.

-This feels kind of long and like I'm rambling a bit...


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Wow. Many thanks to all for replying. Some very honest replies and things for me to consider.

I would never put this dog above my son, that is just non sense. I am very positive and believe that we can work on this as a family.
Buloo is very protective of me. Yesterday I was coughing in the study and he came running to check that I was okay :grin2:
He gets on really well with my daughter and wife and they love him.

I will ask my son how he feels, but he is 16 and young so still forming opinions. 
My son soley feeds Buloo. We have a muzzle that we tried on him yesterday. I plan to let me son walk Buloo with the muzzle on to see how it goes. I hope that in a few weeks the dynamic will change and my and Buloo will form a positve bonding with my son.

I've seen that Buloo can get nervous at times, especially when there is a group of dogs approaching him. 

Let's see how things progress in the coming days. I'll keep you posted. Again many thanks for the comments.
Another pic of the naughty Buloo:


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

KnightRider said:


> Wow. Many thanks to all for replying. Some very honest replies and things for me to consider.
> 
> I would never put this dog above my son, that is just non sense. I am very positive and believe that we can work on this as a family.
> Buloo is very protective of me. Yesterday I was coughing in the study and he came running to check that I was okay :grin2:
> ...


Keep in mind this (in bold) is another set up for a bite/redirect. I would also rethink having the son to walk him when there are other dogs present until the cause for nervousness is discovered. If this dog is DA, the antics he may pull will not impress your son.

This is a new dog being introduced to a new person, maybe some over excitement on both human and dog part, handling skills a little slow maybe, son nervous, dog nervous. A bite happened, more or less one that appears to be a warning to back off. A learning moment for all involved. The later bites a mix of management and human emotion. The fact that your son does come across as nervous to dogs can encourage a bite or other reactive behavior from dogs, especially if they are already a nervous dog themselves.

Just a side note - be sure the muzzle you get for him is a basket muzzle. You want him to have plenty of room for air, panting and drinking.

I am not going to say return the dog or keep him. What you do need to do is get an experienced trainer coming in and make some decisions. Decide if you are able to make the commitment to training and management this dog will require.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Teens don't need to feel safe at home? I love rescuing in theory but this kind of thing turns people off to rescues in general.


Rescues pop all over everywhere. Most don't have a clue and some can be considered hoarders. I am done with rescues.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are doing the evaluation a good rescue should have done before the dog was adopted out. I have only worked with reputable rescues who do that kind of evaluation during the fostering period. I fostered dogs with aggressive behavior. This dog reminds me of one that was not a GSD who could not tolerate young men. The dog was around many in my home and the reaction was always the same. A lot of growling. Instead of getting better, it got worse. I brought in a trainer who offered to give a free evaluation and said the dog was too aggressive for a home with a lot of traffic. I did a lot of management but the dog still tried to bite someone on the leg. Had they not seen and jumped away, the dog would have made contact and given a serious bite. So my evaluation was that the dog needed to go to a home with no young males. I wrote down that the dog tried to intentionally bite someone. The dog did very well with the new owners, but they knew in advance what they were getting and were up for it.

I finally asked the rescue who had abused the dog and it turns out it was not written on the owner release form but had been told to the intake person. The dog was being released because it had been abused for over a year by the owner's young adult violent boyfriend and the owner finally got away from him herself. She had to give up her dogs. Because I had German Shepherd background, I was given the one they thought might be aggresive because they needed an evaluation. Since I was fostering and not adopting, it was my job to determine the dogs safety round people. Somehow in the rush of taking in a lot of new dogs the extra information wasn't passed along.

You don't know the dog's history, so you have to make the evaluation. I was going off of what you posted. Now you don't seem that concerned, so I'm not either. it's your choice whether you mind the dog putting teeth on your son or not, but please get a trainer evaluation. For me, a dog that bites a family member during the honeymoon period would be returned.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Rescues pop all over everywhere. Most don't have a clue and some can be considered hoarders. I am done with rescues.


Rescued dogs can be evaluated in all possible situations before they are placed in homes. But they depend on the volunteers who foster for them to kmowmwhat they are seeing and to do a good job of checking. I tend to agree, most come with baggage, but I have had rescues that were very good family dogs. The dogs my parents had when I was a child were mostly good pets. This one doesn't seem like he is going to be at all easy to deal with.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

thanks for the further comments! 

The santuary have asked me to take Baloo back on Saturday so that they can spend some more time with us as a family. One of their dog accessors will spend time with us and see the interaction that goes on.
I like the santuary as they are trying their best to help me and they are a charity so I'll be happy to donate.

Will keep you posted. Another pic of Baloo playing with me:


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I would be very leery also, and for Dad to be saying that the dog is very protective of him. Just that statement makes me wonder about the dynamics in the house and what this dog is thinking.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

KnightRider said:


> thanks for the further comments!
> 
> The santuary have asked me to take Baloo back on Saturday so that they can spend some more time with us as a family. One of their dog accessors will spend time with us and see the interaction that goes on.
> I like the santuary as they are trying their best to help me and they are a charity so I'll be happy to donate.
> ...


Are the pictures to show us the dog is calm with you? I would have guessed that without the pictures. If you want real feedback, show us pictures of the dog's body posture around your son.

Why didn't the sanctuary have someone watch your whole family with the dog before handing it over to you? Being a charity doesn't impress me. Any good rescue has charity status.

All I know about your situation is what you posted, but the fact that you had to ask for this kind of advice on a message board tells me you are not experienced with what you have. This isn't a criticism but a serious question. Do you have the experience to manage a dog that is capable of seriously hurting your son? The pictures you posted and the comments tell me you don't believe this dog could be a danger to him.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Are the pictures to show us the dog is calm with you? I would have guessed that without the pictures. If you want real feedback, show us pictures of the dog's body posture around your son.
> 
> Why didn't the sanctuary have someone watch your whole family with the dog before handing it over to you? Being a charity doesn't impress me. Any good rescue has charity status.
> 
> All I know about your situation is what you posted, but the fact that you had to ask for this kind of advice on a message board tells me you are not experienced with what you have. This isn't a criticism but a serious question. Do you have the experience to manage a dog that is capable of seriously hurting your son? The pictures you posted and the comments tell me you don't believe this dog could be a danger to him.


They did, twice. We went as a family twice for a total of 2hrs. 
I am not experienced with this situation. I am not afraid to ask for help.
A dog can do anything at any time. Any dog and bite and injure. 
So far Baloo has not seriously bitten and light bites are not enough for me to return him. I am of course taking this seriously and watching Baloos' every move near my son. He is on a lead when near my son and now we will mussle him when necessary.

Any other helpful comments appreciated. 

Thanks
Knight


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Pictures of his body language around your son would help. I question how good the rescue is if they didn't pick up on this during the visit. That was their job, not yours. Now it is your problem. If it was me, I would pay whatever it cost to get an independent evaluation of the dog with your son. I am sensing there is more to your son's behavior than you have told us, which is fine but a real person in your home could observe and recommend. The sanctuary has already proven they don't know how to evaluate a dog and a family.

If you rescued because you want to do a good thing, that is admirable. If you did it to avoid the cost of a puppy, I found that private training to undo behavior problems make rescues far more expensive than a puppy from a breeder.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Pictures of his body language around your son would help. I question how good the rescue is if they didn't pick up on this during the visit. That was their job, not yours. Now it is your problem. If it was me, I would pay whatever it cost to get an independent evaluation of the dog with your son. I am sensing there is more to your son's behavior than you have told us, which is fine but a real person in your home could observe and recommend. The sanctuary has already proven they don't know how to evaluate a dog and a family.
> 
> If you rescued because you want to do a good thing, that is admirable. If you did it to avoid the cost of a puppy, I found that private training to undo behavior problems make rescues far more expensive than a puppy from a breeder.


LuvShepherds, to be honest, Buloo got on very well with all of us, there were no signs of any issue. 
Think it's still early days yet. Lets see what the sanctuary think on Saturday.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

KnightRider said:


> Buloo is very protective of me.


 Protective or Possessive??? "Usually" people that are having issues ... have "protective" in there post somewhere. 



KnightRider said:


> Yesterday I was coughing in the study and he came running to check that I was okay


That sounds "typical" and speaks to a lack of proper management. This dog should not be allowed to "free roam indoors." Outside is for playing ... indoors is to chill. Indoors (for awhile) he should be in his "Crate" in "Place" (which would need to be taught) or tethered to you. The fact that he is free to come running to make sure you are ok ... speaks to more of a "hugs and Kisses" approach ... rather than establishing ... "Rules/Structure and Management." 



KnightRider said:


> He gets on really well with my daughter and wife and they love him.


 Sooo he gets to pick and choose ... which family members he finds "acceptable" ... that should not be his choice. Most likely ... that "Rescue" screwed up and this dog should have gone to an adult only household??? Whether or not he can actually fit in with your family ... no one can say here??? But as it sounds like you are proceeding thus far ... it's gonna be "problematic???" 




KnightRider said:


> We have a muzzle that we tried on him yesterday. I plan to let me son walk Buloo with the muzzle on to see how it goes. I hope that in a few weeks the dynamic will change and my and Buloo will form a positive bonding with my son.


Aww ... finally as the saying goes if you throw mud at a wall some of it is gonna stick! "Assuming" the dog already knows how to walk well on a loose leash??? You have your answer. One on one time with your son on long structured walks. No treats, no talk just walk in silence. And occasional pat on the head and a good boy ... should be fine. And they should at some point on those walks, fine a quiet area and just "Sit." And again he says "nothing to the dog" no "Sit/Stay or Down" nothing he would just "stop" somewhere and "Sit on the Leash." Ten to 15 minutes to start, working up to 30 minutes. 

That last bit is called "Sit on the dog" it is explained in here. :
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Structured walk looks like this.:





And yeah Jeff is using a "Prong Collar" if the dog already knows what a "Prong Collar" is?? Fine use one ... if not, for right now then don't. Just use whatever it is he is used to walking on ... hmm assuming it's not a harness?? I couldn't imagine that .. but people do stuff. 




KnightRider said:


> I've seen that Buloo can get nervous at times, especially when there is a group of dogs approaching him.


Hmm a "group of dogs???" Most likely a lack of imagination on my part but the only situation I can imagine where that would happen is a "Dog Park???" If that is what you are doing with him currently??? Please stop, if he happens to get attacked at a Dog Park?? Your gonna be in a whole new Ball Game and at the moment ... you don't need "additional hassles." But ... I don't know if the group of dogs is a "Dog Park" situation so ... just saying.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Buloo looks more like a GSD possibly malinois mix to me now, but with the picture quality, hard to tell.

Regardless, I would be careful with the redirection if he gets overstimulated by other dogs or people. And I hope the rescue can help you when you go in Saturday.

Can you give us any more information on the circumstances around the nips?

Video?


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

KnightRider said:


> I plan to let me son walk Buloo with the muzzle on to see how it goes. I hope that in a few weeks the dynamic will change and my and Buloo will form a positve bonding with my son.


I second the recommendation to get a formal evaluation of Buloo with all family members --- individually and as a group. But, I would discourage allowing your son to feed or walk Buloo until you've gotten the dog evaluated or are working with a good trainer. First, you mention that your son is nervous around dogs. It's hard to tell if this is in consequence of the 3 bites from Buloo or if this is in reaction to prior bad/frightening interactions which have now been reinforced by his "Buloo Encounters." Either way, what your son may bring (behaviorally, I mean) to this equation makes future interactions with Buloo likely to be equally, _if not more_, problematic --- without professional intervention. 

Second, Buloo has already bitten your son 3 times. Theoretically, there could be lots of reasons for that (some of which MAY have relatively little to do with Buloo). But, until you all have a better sense of the dog (via evaluation and working w/a trainer) and how to manage him, you have little understanding of what may have caused the bites in the first place and how to avoid bites going forward. Assuming, of course, that all family members _want _to go forward with Buloo. I'd try to get emotionally honest answers from each and every family member before anything else. I'd also have a long, hard think about what they say/imply and wouldn't be so quick to give Buloo an automatic pass. 

A final thought. I'd be very concerned about a dog who, new to a home, bites the same person 3 times. On the face of it, that doesn't sound as simple as a lack of bonding which can be 'repaired' via shared feeding/exercise activities. It may be, but it doesn't read that way to me. If it's an issue of lack of respect (or an attempt to move up the food chain), it doesn't matter if your son feeds & walks Buloo if your son doesn't also know how to manage the dog. What it does is to set the stage for more problematic interactions.

I'm sure none of you want that --- especially your son.

Aly


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I don't know if I'd go to the rescue again for an evaluation. Find a good balanced trainer for an unbiased opinion. Your family and this dog are still new to each other. Honeymoon period.


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

I think if you wanted to get rid of the dog you would have and not come onto this forum looking for help.

I do not think you are sacrificing your 16 year old for a dog. lol. While things could still go south, I don't think they have yet. It seems to me that you don't either. I fostered a dog who did not think much of the boys around here and tried to bite my youngest a few times One miss was dumb luck, the rest were management. It was upsetting and made me a bit nervous but it did stop. It was just the first little while. For whatever reason, he did not trust a lot of men and my youngest who is an animal lover was the one who wanted to interact with him most. 

I am not completely in sic with Chip18's view on dogs in the house. I am with Chip on crating and restraint in the initial introduction period and I think it would be good to introduce that now. Will make life a little easier on your son too. I would not put the crate in "your" area though. I would put it in a place that everybody uses but is a relatively quiet area. I have never used a muzzle but like the idea of muzzling him for interactions with your son. Firstly, he cannot nip him and secondly, your son will have nothing to worry about. I also like idea of walks together as Chip described too. I think those type of walks create a natural bond and trust, way more so then any formal training does. And food, well feeding an animal is always a good thing. Tough to do if he is in a muzzle though and I would do everything possible to prevent a repeat.

Finding a good trainer is never a bad idea. And besides, life with dogs is always a learning process.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In the honey moon period (about 4 - 5 weeks) dogs are usually on their best behavior........ Brace yourself. Now you have a known biter. Every bite limits his chances for a good doggy life. I never understood why parents defend a dog that has bitten their child.
They were my worst clients and I have walked away as a trainer because I might as well have talked to the walls.
And don't minimize a bite by calling it a 'nip' to make it sound so innocent. Contact with teeth is called a BITE! 
Lot of the so called rescues/no-kill shelters import dogs from other states by the loads and sell them to the unknowing public without temperament testing them, resulting in heartache as you see in this family.
Question to the OP: where did this dog come from, background story?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I don't know if I'd go to the rescue again for an evaluation. Find a good balanced trainer for an unbiased opinion. Your family and this dog are still new to each other. Honeymoon period.


I would not go back to them for an evaluation, it seems fairly clear ... they had no "real" idea of what this dog was like around kids ... yeah he seems to have no issues with the daughter but does not like male teens perhaps??? So ... 50/50 youngster are fine ... as long as they meet "certain conditions???"

And what about when "kids come over???" The OP has only had the dog a week. I'm pretty sure they were expecting to get a dog and just get on with life. But "apparently" that is not now where they are. So clearly at this point ... Plan A did not ... work out so well???

That is not a crime crap happens. They have only had the dog a week ... you can take the back to the rescue and give them the information that has now discovered ... this dog seems to have an issue with kids. I would suggest ... an adults only household perhaps. The "OP" has done the dog a favor in that case.

He could consider himself and his son as "involuntary evaluators" take the dog back and try again. They have actually done the dog a favor. He could just have easily landed in a least tolerant household and already have been "PTS!" 

And as regards a "Balanced Training" yes no doubt ... but I have already given them a heads on there advise. They will tell you, "most problems happen in the home and the dog needs to be properly managed." 

Take the dog or keep him ... not our call. But if they want to ... take this* "Challenge On"* ... kidless that I my be ... I understand a lot of the mistakes that "JQP" can and does make.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Thanks again for the input.

I have decided to leave the dog decision to my son. He is a young man now and if he wants to give this a go then he has 3 family members supporting him. 
Will let you know what he decides .


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

KnightRider said:


> Thanks again for the input.
> 
> I have decided to leave the dog decision to my son. He is a young man now and if he wants to give this a go then he has 3 family members supporting him.
> Will let you know what he decides .



I respectfully disagree on making it your sixteen year old son's decision. He has a father, mother and sister who all want the dog and now he is to be the bad guy if he says no? This is a decision that needs to be made by the parents!


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Here are my randomized thoughts and I am not a professional dog trainer. I have a pretty special case GSD and I am a dog groomer, and see all types of personalities and have to spend 2 hours on some aggressive dogs, I guess I get use to "aggressive" and "reactive" types. 

There are different types of aggression. 

If your new dog wanted to hurt your son, he would have. Since he didn't leave any marks or make him bleed, it tells me he has good bite inhibition. If your son is scared of your dog, there is no doubt your dog knows that. Can you blame your son though? No. So you need to build your sons confidence now.  

I would get a professional and highly recommended dog trainer in your area, preferably one that is comfortable working with breeds like GSD and Belgian type of brain. I would have your SON work with the dog mainly, to further their relationship into a positive direction. 

I wouldn't get rid of the dog, but thats just me.
Dog is a dog, dogs have teeth.  Thus is life. All dogs have potential to bite, they all have different thresholds. And ya rarely do i have to worry about a Golden biting me, but when a cocker spaniel comes in. I have the muzzle ready to go. LOL Thats because typically cocker's threshold for handling is a lot lower than that of a Golden. GSD's and Husky's tend to be nervy when they come in, and might nip at me, but dont usually mean business. They want to see if that is enough to get me to stop. And it isn't. lol 

My dog at one point, a long time ago, (I posted about it on here somewhere!) probably growled at my mom. ONCE. I was worried about it. Because my mom is already a bit scared of dogs. It had to do with my bed and her getting off of it to go into a crate and it was while my mom was leaning over her. I still am not 100% sure it was a growl, but I took it as one when my mom told me about it and treated it as one. She went into a serious NILIF routine for a while. 

A lot of people would have given up on my dog. Becuase of her fear aggression to all strangers. Thats why I am glad she fell into my hands. I dont give up on dogs. I am so glad i didnt. She is mellowing out and is the best thing that ever happened to my life. Also, you learn A LOT from dogs like this. I can guarantee you that I would never go back on my decision on getting her. 

With a new adult dog, I would do a serious NILIF routine for a few months to set boundaries. It's not too late to start now. 

Also, if you end up returning the dog so that the rescue can find another home, do not feel like a bad person. It is what it is. If the dog and your family both get a better ending from it, than good. But if you are willing to work with your dog and your son is willing to work with your dog, through a professional training and NILIF that is great too! Some people wait for too long to return a dog because they want to make it work. A little dog came into my work place for daycare, he was a rescue. The mom brought him in, because he hates men and will bite them and lunge, etc. She has a husband and three sons in her house. Why the **** the rescue gave them that dog is beyond me. With her poor family being terrorized and scared of the dog, (I mean the males couldn't even walk around the house without the dog lunging and biting at them), he loved the lady who adopted him... but never got use to the men. She did get a trainer out and everything. Heartbroken because she bonded with the dog after many months, she decided to return him. She wasn't willing to put more money with a higher up dog trainer that i suggested, the only one i know in the area that would have actually helped them. I think she made the right call. 
After working in a shelter for a couple years, i remember my manager told me something once that stuck with me. I was upset that this poor dog, who was actually a great dog it was ridiculous people he was adopted out to that returned him. This was probably the second or third person that returned him. She said, at least he had time away from being in the shelter life. And its true, because being a shelter is super stressful on dogs mentally and physically. If they can get out for a "vacation" for a couple weeks or months, good!  Positive way to look at it! 
Okay sorry for going on and on. 

Whatever you choose. Do what is best for your family and for the dog.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

VTGirlT said:


> Here are my randomized thoughts and I am not a professional dog trainer. I have a pretty special case GSD and I am a dog groomer, and see all types of personalities and have to spend 2 hours on some aggressive dogs, I guess I get use to "aggressive" and "reactive" types.
> _*
> There are different types of aggression.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree there are different types of aggression. Can be very helpful to find out which one it is for a dog.

On the other hand just because the dog hasn't drawn blood doesn't mean he has good bite inhibition or that he doesn't mean harm when he does it. I don't know either way with this dog but I wouldn't assume no blood=no harm.
I've seen far too many dog bites escalate because the first few 'nips' are taken much too lightly by the owner. Starts with harmless nips and turns into full out punctures. Not to say that always happens or that that this will happen with this dog.


Also the kid may feel pressured into agreeing to keep this dog simply because everybody else enjoys it. I'd ask his opinion and try to find out what he wants but wouldn't necessarily put all of the weight of the choice on him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Breaker's mom said:


> I am not completely in sic with Chip18's view on dogs in the house. I am with Chip on crating and restraint in the initial introduction period and I think it would be good to introduce that now.


LOL ... that was ... Beat Down Number One ... "what's a Crate??? 



Breaker's mom said:


> Will make life a little easier on your son too. I would not put the crate in "your" area though. I would put it in a place that everybody uses but is a relatively quiet area.


I'll just default to whatever the "just got a rescue" says for "Two Weeks" I have not reviewed it in a few years. Beyond that there is no law that says, you can't have more than one Crate. And the "goal" ultimately would be no "Crate" at all under a true "No Free Roaming Policy." "Place" should suffice once properly trained. That would be the goal and the dog should be able to maintain a "Two Hour Place" with distractions before it could be trusted. Most likely a fairly high standard?? I never said it would be easy.  




Breaker's mom said:


> I have never used a muzzle but like the idea of muzzling him for interactions with your son. Firstly, he cannot nip him and secondly, your son will have nothing to worry about.


My use of the "muzzle" thing was not my idea and to be fair "Rocky" had no issues with me. His aggression was directed towards my BanDog" and uh ... everyone else that did not live in his home! 

I was not gonna stand for that crap!! And my original plan in as much as I was "still in fighting with my dog mode" ... was to take him out in public ... "Keep People out of his Face." He went behind me/body block from people, and when I was "forced" to interact with JQP becasue they had questions. And if he "Dared" to try something ... well he would have to get through me first! That ... was my plan, but my friend and Marilyn was onboard with him "suggested" maybe use a muzzle??? 

Sigh ... whatever ... so I used a muzzle and once I understood what he liked look when he was fine ... I dropped it's use ... worked out fine. But it was actually "Don Sullivan" that explained to me how that worked. The dog understands that he can't bite and he is forced to trust his owner and the owner is more comfortable because he knows his dog can't bite anyone. Worked out fine. 




Breaker's mom said:


> I also like idea of walks together as Chip described too. I think those type of walks create a natural bond and trust, way more so than any formal training does.


LOL ... yes ...yes they do! And doing that ... was my solution and it worked out fine! At the time however ... I had no idea I was doing that! I "stumbled unto a lot of stuff" simply becasue ... I was ticked off with "Rocky" and I was simply not gonna have this crap behaviour!! So not talking to "Rocky" and no "over affection" was not a big deal! And doing that ... worked out fine ... but how ... exactly???

I had no idea but I went off to "rescue work" because well my dogs were boring. And I would hear this dog does this or that blab, blab ... whatever. At my first rescue event they handed me a "SLL" and a "Pulling Boxer with fear of people Issues" and said ... use this. My thought was ... "whatever."

And I then discovered by "accident that a "Slip Leash Lead" a al Cesar Millan ... worked like "magic for me." I saw the tabby thing on it adjusted high on the dog. And after a minute or two ... of the dog struggling, he stopped sat down and looked up at me. I looked down and said "OK" and off we went ... issue free! To an outside observe ... there was no apparent effort required ... whatsoever. 

But you know ... I hear from "Balanced Trainers" that you can't correct a dog with a "SLL???" I've only "had" to address a serious "this crap will not stand" issue once and I did "still" use a "SLL" to do just that. But hey they are "Pro's" and I am not "still" they also say ... "props to those that who can so." I suppose ... that includes me. 

Aww well ... wild long tangent on my particular tool of choice that I stumbled onto. But back on pointe ... after many many many years of trying to understand what I actually did ... to have well behaved dogs seemingly ... without effort I discovered my answer ... "walk you dog." 



Breaker's mom said:


> And food, well feeding an animal is always a good thing. Tough to do if he is in a muzzle though and I would do everything possible to prevent a repeat.


 Dog should not "need" to be a muzzle 24/7 ... that should not be a problem???



Breaker's mom said:


> Finding a good trainer is never a bad idea. And besides, life with dogs is always a learning process.


Well ... nothing to add here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> I agree that if you're dealing with dogs where there is already an issue. Forget about treats. I am referring to dogs raised from puppies. Either for sport or just pets. The dog and goal should dictate how the dog is trained. I have three dogs and they all three have a custom tailored training system. But my goal is to get all of my dogs to the highest level they can reach. Either in obedience or sport.
> However, with my oldest two the most reliable commands were taught using either a choke or e-collar.


LOL ... well then ... most likely ... "common ground" all I tend to see is "dogs with issues." How they got there and what's a viable solution?? People that already know how to train a dog ... "I don't care." Most likely an "attitude problem on my part ... I suppose I got to work on that??

But " Larry Krohn" newly discovered by me thanks to a member here ... finally explained to me ... what I did/do! IE "Walk your dog!" Most likely a more detailed explanation is required??

But ... saddly ... I'm still kinda tool-ish so a "PM" would be necessary for a further explanation from me ... here. Yeah ... I can be a "tool" ... but what are you gonna do?? So treat away ... you'll get no flack from me.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... well then ... most likely ... "common ground" all I tend to see is "dogs with issues." How they got there and what's a viable solution?? People that already know how to train a dog ... "I don't care." Most likely an "attitude problem on my part ... I suppose I got to work on that??
> 
> But " Larry Krohn" newly discovered by me thanks to a member here ... finally explained to me ... what I did/do! IE "Walk your dog!" Most likely a more detailed explanation is required??
> 
> But ... saddly ... I'm still kinda tool-ish so a "PM" would be necessary for a further explanation from me ... here. Yeah ... I can be a "tool" ... but what are you gonna do?? So treat away ... you'll get no flack from me.


How the **** did I wind up over on this thread. Chip what did you do?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

KnightRider said:


> Thanks again for the input.
> 
> I have decided to leave the dog decision to my son. He is a young man now and if he wants to give this a go then he has 3 family members supporting him.
> Will let you know what he decides .


Well ... first ... I don't have kids ... so bare that in mind. And I simply don't play favorites ... if you want to keep the dog??? I would like to help you understand what you need to do ... to keep him and hopefully get this to work. If you decide that "this" dog is just not working out for your particular situation ... not problem. 

Unintentionaly .. you have discovered (for them) that this dog has a "kid" issue??? That is not a bad thing. You did that "apparently" incompetent rescue a favore! Return the dog ... give that particular rescue, the information "you and your son" discovered by accident and call it good! 

It did not work out, no harm no foul. Tell them ... this dog should go to an adult only household ... end of story! But to put the "pressure" of that decision ... "childless" that I may be on a kid ... strikes me as particularly unfair??? As I "don't" have kids ... I can't say ... but that is how I see it.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Kazel said:


> I definitely agree there are different types of aggression. Can be very helpful to find out which one it is for a dog.
> 
> On the other hand just because the dog hasn't drawn blood doesn't mean he has good bite inhibition or that he doesn't mean harm when he does it. I don't know either way with this dog but I wouldn't assume no blood=no harm.
> I've seen far too many dog bites escalate because the first few 'nips' are taken much too lightly by the owner. Starts with harmless nips and turns into full out punctures. Not to say that always happens or that that this will happen with this dog.
> ...


While it's true it can escalate, the dog is not _currently_ attempting to destroy the kid... * Is what I was saying.* I never said that it would remain as such. If the dog wanted to, he had three+ many more opportunities to hurt the kid and he didn't. 
However, you are correct on, that if nothing is done, it can escalate.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> How the **** did I wind up over on this thread. Chip what did you do?


Uh oh ... to many browsers open to many tabs ... pc locked up. Most likely this should have been in the Don Sullivan thread ... I've done this before ... but I usually don't drag others in on my screw ups ... my bad. Maybe a mod can put it ... where I think it should have gone ... my bad.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KnightRider said:


> Thanks again for the input.
> 
> I have decided to leave the dog decision to my son. He is a young man now and if he wants to give this a go then he has 3 family members supporting him.
> Will let you know what he decides .


Imagine being a 16 year old and being responsible for rehoming a dog that everyone else in the family wants to keep. Why don't the parents take charge and protect the safety of their son? It is called 'parenting' for goodness sake! I really don't get this.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Imagine being a 16 year old and being responsible for rehoming a dog that everyone else in the family wants to keep. Why don't the parents take charge and protect the safety of their son? It is called 'parenting' for goodness sake! I really don't get this.


Not only putting the emotional burden on him, but what happens if this dog is truly aggressive and bites someone badly? Huge monetary liability on the parents (not to mention how terrible he will feel that it happened because of his choice). 

If you truly want to try to work past this I would get a pro with GSD/Mal experience. Don't let this sit on the kid's shoulders. 

I'm sure he is a lovely young man, but his brain is not done growing yet. The portion of his brain that helps judgement and decision making is still maturing. It's why teens, even bright ones, make dumb mistakes and think "it'll never be me."


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Imagine being a 16 year old and being responsible for rehoming a dog that everyone else in the family wants to keep. Why don't the parents take charge and protect the safety of their son? It is called 'parenting' for goodness sake! I really don't get this.


Fair enough, that's your opinion. I see 16 years as a young man and respect his decision. He is not a kid any more.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Dotbat215 said:


> Not only putting the emotional burden on him, but what happens if this dog is truly aggressive and bites someone badly? Huge monetary liability on the parents (not to mention how terrible he will feel that it happened because of his choice).
> 
> If you truly want to try to work past this I would get a pro with GSD/Mal experience. Don't let this sit on the kid's shoulders.
> 
> I'm sure he is a lovely young man, but his brain is not done growing yet. The portion of his brain that helps judgement and decision making is still maturing. It's why teens, even bright ones, make dumb mistakes and think "it'll never be me."


I think that you're mis interpreting me. I want to let my son tell me how he feels. 
My family will hold no issue with him either way. I think that it is empowering.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Decision-making is Still a Work in Progress for Teenagers


*Gargi Talukder* is a graduate student in the Neuroscience Program at Stanford University.


Recent studies of brain development in teenagers may finally give parents the scientific authority to say “No you’re not!” in answer to the common adolescent complaint, “But I’m old enough to make my own decisions!” That authority comes from brain imaging studies that reveal some surprising features of the adolescent brain.
Deborah Yurgelun-Todd and colleagues at the McLean Hospital Brain Imaging Center in Boston, Massachusetts have used functional magnetic resonance imaging to compare the activity of teenage brains to those of adults.
_While adults can use rational processes when facing emotional decisions, teenagers are simply not yet equipped to think through things in the same way._​The researchers found that when processing emotions, adults have greater activity in their frontal lobes than do teenagers. Adults also have lower activity in their amygdala than teenagers. In fact, as teenagers age into adulthood, the overall focus of brain activity seems to shift from the amygdala to the frontal lobes.
The frontal lobes of the brain have been implicated in behavioral inhibition, the ability to control emotions and impulses. The frontal lobes are also thought to be the place where decisions about right and wrong, as well as cause-effect relationships are processed. In contrast, the amygdala is part of the limbic system of the brain and is involved in instinctive “gut” reactions, including “fight or flight” responses. Lower activity in the frontal lobe could lead to poor control over behavior and emotions, while an overactive amygdala may be associated with high levels of emotional arousal and reactionary decision-making.
The results from the McLean study suggest that while adults can to use rational decision making processes when facing emotional decisions, adolescent brains are simply not yet equipped to think through things in the same way.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

Deb said:


> Decision-making is Still a Work in Progress for Teenagers
> 
> 
> *Gargi Talukder* is a graduate student in the Neuroscience Program at Stanford University.
> ...


Totally disagree. I was running a business at 16.
Young men fought in wars at 16, made decisions in combat.
Think that we're going off topic here....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ugh ... folks can't even agree on how to raise dogs and now we have moved on to kids/teens??? I'll stand down.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Belgian shepherds bite people unless taught not to. Comes with the territory. Getting them without knowing how to deal with that issue is problematic.

Your options are pretty simple.
1. Rehome the dog and pass the problem on to someone else.
2. Get rid of it some other way
3. Manage the dog and don't let it near your son. Can't bite him if ut can't get to him.
4. Attempt to solve the issue yourself somehow.
5. Go find a professional (like myself) who has experience dealing with that type of dog and issue and learn how to deal with the issue directly.
6.keep arguing with people on the forum. And let son get bit more or figure out how to avoid it on his own. pretty easy to win a dog over usually.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP: You came here for advice and you got it. Yet, you think you have all the answers so why asking for advice. So far you have countered most of the good tips. Do you want to be happy or right? Good luck. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the dog, your son and the family dynamics.


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## KnightRider (Mar 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> OP: You came here for advice and you got it. Yet, you think you have all the answers so why asking for advice. So far you have countered most of the good tips. Do you want to be happy or right? Good luck. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the dog, your son and the family dynamics.


Nope, I came here for guidance on handling a dog, not people telling me about how young men think and how I should bring my kids up. All totally off topic and offensive.
I'm not posting on this thread any more.

Many thanks the the postive tips given by people.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is for everyone who tried to help and was not appreciated. The OP didn't want to hear the truth but the next person who rescues a biting dog might read this and learn something. Something else that was not acknowledged is that 18 is the legal age for adulthood. Anyone under age 18 is a child.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There was no blood?

Three bites? No blood? 

That there is a mighty big dog and full grown. If it wanted to do damage, it would have. I think you can work through this with the dog and a trainer. 

But then, I have no kids, so my opinion is worth zilch on this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is sad OP treated the problem as if it were strictly a dog problem when it was so much more than that. It is kind of hard to address a problem by hyper focusing on only one aspect of the situation while putting blinders on to other integral facets.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is sad OP treated the problem as if it were strictly a dog problem when it was so much more than that. It is kind of hard to address a problem by hyper focusing on only one aspect of the situation while putting blinders on to other integral facets.


Like family dynamics, which in the end will be much more important than this one dog. But it's easier to blame, cut and run when things get tough here. Or I should substitute honest for the word "tough"


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is sad OP treated the problem as if it were strictly a dog problem when it was so much more than that. It is kind of hard to address a problem by hyper focusing on only one aspect of the situation while putting blinders on to other integral facets.


I am not trying to steal your thread but... I have been training pet dogs in private sessions for twenty years and the OP's situation and views are the reason I retired and it is a good example of it. Honestly I got sick and tired from all these pet dog owners with biting dogs who expected me to either 1. fix it on the spot or 2. telling them that they didn't have a problem and that Coco was a great dog They 1. refuse to tackle the entire problem with the dog along with family dynamics and 4. generally not willing to put the time or money in. In our community we have huge problem with rescues and shelters who import dogs without temperament testing them. They even get them from Korea, saving them from becoming dinner.
My best and successful clients were people who were new to dog training so they didn't have any pre-conceived ideas or egos to get in the way of success or people who ar willing to learn and not mind trying new techniques.
I was planning to make a new post on this subject but the OP's example is too representative so here it is.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is sad OP treated the problem as if it were strictly a dog problem when it was so much more than that. It is kind of hard to address a problem by hyper focusing on only one aspect of the situation while putting blinders on to other integral facets.


And that's why the thread morphed to something the OP didn't want. Many of us were more worried about the child than the dog. A child's safety should come first. The dog would have a much better chance at a long and happy life in a child free home.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

KnightRider said:


> Totally disagree. I was running a business at 16.
> Young men fought in wars at 16, made decisions in combat.
> Think that we're going off topic here....



That doesn't mean your brain was fully developed. And I certainly hope your decision making skills were not at their peak then.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> I am not trying to steal your thread but... I have been training pet dogs in private sessions for twenty years and the OP's situation and views are the reason I retired and it is a good example of it. Honestly I got sick and tired from all these pet dog owners with biting dogs who expected me to either 1. fix it on the spot or 2. telling them that they didn't have a problem and that Coco was a great dog They 1. refuse to tackle the entire problem with the dog along with family dynamics and 4. generally not willing to put the time or money in. In our community we have huge problem with rescues and shelters who import dogs without temperament testing them. They even get them from Korea, saving them from becoming dinner.
> My best and successful clients were people who were new to dog training so they didn't have any pre-conceived ideas or egos to get in the way of success or people who are willing to learn and not mind trying new techniques.
> I was planning to make a new post on this subject but the OP's example is too representative so here it is.


If you would like to share your experiance on "*training pet dogs in private sessions for twenty years" * ... please do. 

Lot's of us are here to learn from others and "despite" how I may sound at times ... I do also. You'll get no flack from me ... for sharing, for what that's worth. I *guarantee it* ... so you know ... that's one less tool to deal with.


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

The written language can be a tricky thing, particularly when we are not skilled in conveying ideas and thoughts in a clear way. It is easy to leave things out unintentionally or convey something that you did not intend. I suspect it is largely the reason for smiley faces and all the other thing-a-ma-jingys  

That said, Wolfy Dog, I am not really seeing in the thread what you are expressing; either that he was trying to fix it on the spot or denying a problem existed. I did not see a refusal to work on the problem with dog or the family dynamics. What was it exactly you wanted to work on regarding his family dynamics? After reading the comments, he stated he was going to discuss it with his son and allow him to make the decision. You seem to see that as a black and white statement, I see it as a discussion between at the very least, a father and son. If I my son was terrified of the dog but expressed a strong desire to try and fix the situation, I think I would I respect that especially coming from a 16 year old. In would come the some help and away would we go, Muzzle, crate, full time leash, whatever it took, If there were no improvements after a time then so be it. It is not without risk for sure and of course, requires careful management but at least you know what you are dealing with. 

Friends, family etc? You bet, lifetime management but there are thousands of dogs like that living perfectly happy lives with their families. You just never see them 

A forum like this is not the place for solutions to serious problems. But even for problems of aggression it is a great place to gather ideas and ponder different perspectives. Going into a meeting with help armed with ideas/angles gleaned from different people with vast and different experiences is great. You have time to think about your situation and assimilate. Then when meeting whatever help you decide upon/find you are in a better position to access their ideas and approaches too.

Just my thoughts on this....


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Belgian shepherds bite people unless taught not to. Comes with the territory. Getting them without knowing how to deal with that issue is problematic.
> 
> Your options are pretty simple.
> 1. Rehome the dog and pass the problem on to someone else.
> ...


I just wanted to repost Baillif's comment. To me spot on. This breed does bite, they are bred for that. It means a very structured approach to manage the drives and get the behaviors you want. It takes work and a willingness to invest money and time in training. I can't say enough about finding a good trainer. SOOOO worth the investment. It sounds to me that you could probably work with the dog but it will take some work. Nothing wrong with that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Deb said:


> And that's why the thread morphed to something the OP didn't want. Many of us were more worried about the child than the dog. A child's safety should come first. The dog would have a much better chance at a long and happy life in a child free home.


I don't know. It's not a GSD. And the kid is not a child. If a 16 year old punk smashes through my front door and lunges at me, than I would expect one or more of my dogs to go ape-sh on him and bite the heck out of him. It isn't a child. The puppy license or child-license does wear off before adulthood. 

If this dog did not bite, but nipped (no blood) which indicates that this is communication, not a desire to do damage, and displays good bite-inhibition, then I think they can work with the dog AND the teenager. 

It is possible that the dog dealt with a teenager in its past, and may have been rehomed because of a reaction to bad handling by the teenager, even cruelty. We don't know that to be the case and we never will. It is far more likely that the dog recognized the fearfulness of the teenager, and misinterpreted the fear-body language/pharamones, as something to be feared. It might be just as helpful for this particular teenager and this particular dog to work together and build a bond. 

It can teach some real lessons. Disney crap I suppose. But nothing worth having is easily obtained, and if you work with an easy dog, you gain a little experience. If you work with, gain the trust of, and build a bond with a tough dog, you gain lots of experience, and probably you gain the confidence with dogs that otherwise can be crippling. 

Ultimately, it is up to the parents who have to weigh pros and cons of working with the dog (and their kid). 

You know, I heard it a million times growing up, if you fall off a horse, you get right back up and get back on it. We were city kids, but they said the same thing about bicycles. And we did. When I was 16 years old, I was in my first year of college, and I totaled my parents car on my way to school. The Sheriff's deputy took me to my mom's work, and she took me to the hospital after calling the car dealership. Then she took me home. When I woke up and felt all my ribs from the nap on the couch, my parents told me to go and drive the new used car that I would be using to go to school. Why? They did not want me to be afraid to drive. I had to go 40 miles each way to school and I had to drive it, or drop out of college. We can *****-foot around with treats and distance, or we can give a correction and tell the dog to "KNOCK IT OFF!" And we can *****-foot around with people too, being understanding and talking through fears, or we can matter-of-factly tell the person we love to dust themselves off and get up there on that horse, or in the water, or in the car and try again. 

Again, the parents know their kid, we don't. Suggesting a 16 year old should have a puppy/child license with dogs is a bit out there though. Dogs give puppies 4-5 months. A four-five month old puppy is about halfway to doggy puberty, so maybe 5-6 years old for a kid, give or take. Beyond that age dogs still may give kids leeway. But well beyond puberty? 16 year olds have sired children, gone to prison, gone to war, opened businesses, work jobs.

When I was 11 years old, I went to a friend's house. No one came to the door when I knocked, but their big Newfoundland, Willy was outside, chewing on a bone. My grandmother had a dachsund that we played with and we would take its bone or slipper and play with it. I learned that day, that you couldn't do that to all dogs. 37 years later, I still have a 1/4 inch well-deserved scar on my hand. I never told my parents that happened. I certainly did not stop being fascinated by dogs. That dog was excellent with children. They had 4 kids the oldest a few days younger than me, and the youngest a newborn. And they were the house in the neighborhood where kids gravitated to. The dog biting a well grown kid for what amounted to teasing him with his bone wasn't an indication that the dog was no good, and should be returned. The dog wouldn't have done that to a 3-4 year old or younger. I was old enough to know better, and the dog taught me. I lost my child-license.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You really have to put bite inhibition on a lot of them. Part of the problem is many litters are working litters and while they are at the breeders they get encouraged to hang off people's pant legs and sleeves and nobody really ever tells them no. 

The other major difference is many of them have biting so hardwired into them that they will do it out of excitement/stimulation. There are some GSD that get like that but far fewer of them exist. If you don't put the bite inhibition on them it can result in some situations that intimidate a lot of people. 

Theyll nail you for petting em to fast.
They'll nail you because they're excited you're letting them out of the crate.
They'll nail you out of redirection sometimes.

Unless it's clearly not in bounds a lot of them will do it. They don't really need a reason.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You really have to put bite inhibition on a lot of them. Part of the problem is many litters are working litters and while they are at the breeders they get encouraged to hang off people's pant legs and sleeves and nobody really ever tells them no.
> 
> The other major difference is many of them have biting so hardwired into them that they will do it out of excitement/stimulation. There are some GSD that get like that but far fewer of them exist. If you don't put the bite inhibition on them it can result in some situations that intimidate a lot of people.
> 
> ...


Oh well ... since the OP is "ticked off" and is "outa here" as it were ... at this point now ... we do what we do here. Carry on regardless. That said, when I saw the title my first thought was the movie ... Max??? 

Soooo ... while looking at Larry Krhon, working with his "Mal" a... while obviously well trained, and well disciplined. That dog struck me as "freakishly ... intense???" Is that typical with a Mal??? 






Would a GSD/Mal cross ... be anything like that ?? And yes individual dogs vary of course but in general what should one expect to see from a GSD/Mal, and I don't know that is what the OP's dog is, so just asking???


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

It obviously was serious enough for the op to come on here and post.  @selzer, you don't have kids, but would you bring your dog that nipped a niece out when they were over? Or would you keep that dog separate? Especially if they are uncomfortable as described by the op?


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

Yes carry on! I just learned a ton from Baillif! Perhaps even had an epiphany. I definitely have a new view on pupping nipping and it's treatment.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

One of the trainers I work with has a GSD/Mal/Dutch cross who is her service dog and yes, intense is exactly the word I use for her.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Deb said:


> One of the trainers I work with has a GSD/Mal/Dutch cross who is her service dog and yes, intense is exactly the word I use for her.


Uh oh, lol. Can you elaborate?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> I just wanted to repost Baillif's comment. To me spot on. This breed does bite, they are bred for that. It means a very structured approach to manage the drives and get the behaviors you want. It takes work and a willingness to invest money and time in training. I can't say enough about finding a good trainer. SOOOO worth the investment. It sounds to me that you could probably work with the dog but it will take some work. Nothing wrong with that.


We have many threads on puppy biting, and sometimes we get into arguments on the best way to deal with it. Personally I don't like correcting puppy biting too much, I try to morph that drive into something more positive. To me it's a form of excess energy, but I never had a Mal/Dutch before so maybe they need stronger corrections?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> One of the trainers I work with has a GSD/Mal/Dutch cross who is her service dog and yes, intense is exactly the word I use for her.


Oh throw a Dutchie in that mix also??? But a service dog ... wow!

But yes, I was trying to listen to what Larry was saying but .. I was focused on the dog! "Look/Watch,Look/Watch" ... Ok ... how quick and how hard???

It reminded "me" of course of a "Boxer!" Speed is king ... "I don't car, what it is or where I am going ... I am doing it or getting there fast and hard." Everything is done with "Gusto," as it where.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chip- your instincts are right. Most malinois or dutchies are terrible service dog prospects.

For the same reasons many are such great police or military dog prospects, or top sport dogs.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Hard to explain, she's very into her handler, very alert to her moods and emotions. She's also very alert to those she likes. She doesn't 'like' a lot of people, will ignore most. The vice president of our organization suddenly passed. At the viewing she sat between her handler and I and was constantly nudging and licking me, laying her head in my lap. I'd known her for twenty years, so the viewing was difficult for me. She picked up on that. 


She doesn't care for men, but there's no aggression. She has a 'look' that will deter anyone from coming close. 


Another trainer has a Dutch Shepherd rescue. She also only accepts certain people. Luckily I'm one of them as I'm over to their house often. First time she met me she ran up and jumped on me, nudged at me and that was it, I was her 'friend'. She is not a service dog.


I wouldn't advise Dutchies as service dogs. Can some of them do it? Maybe, but only rarely I think.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Chip- your instincts are right. Most malinois or dutchies are terrible service dog prospects.
> 
> For the same reasons many are such great police or military dog prospects, or top sport dogs.


They actually make great service dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> They actually make great service dogs.


One of the main criteria of service dogs is NO human or animal aggression. They have to be able to go anywhere and everywhere with their handlers and safely interact around unruly dogs and all types of people doing various activities.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Julian, no, they don't. Malinois really do not make good service dogs. Detection, police, avalanche, search and rescue, military, sports (almost any) yes. Malinois excel. But service dogs for a disabled person who is not an experienced handler and may be incapacitated and unable to handle the dog at times and in public? Absolutely not. 

Imagine the handler had a seizure-alert malinois and had a seizure in public. Very very few malinois would be into allowing strangers to approach and assist an incapacitated handler. It's not even a training issue... how would you reliably train for that scenario? The dog could very easily get shot by police in this scenario. That's a criminal example of setting a dog up to fail. 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Reactivity, instinctual biting, reactivity again, space issues, aggression... no. If the handler is experienced and has a the perfect malinois, that malinois can probably go anywhere with the handler and behave appropriately because the handler could cue and correct the dog if needed. My malinois has been in many public venues (where dogs are allowed) and behaved exactly as a service dog would, calm and focused on me and completely neutral to people and dogs, but I am able to cue or correct her if needed, to maintain and re-enforce proper behavior. And I can physically handle her at all times if needed. 

But, for the general public, or a disabled person who doesn't know a lot about dog training and might be incapacitated in public with the dog and in need of assistance? Absolutely not. The vast majority of people I know who are malinois breeders or malinois owners agree that promoting the malinois as a service dog is very wrong, and bad for everyone involved, handler, dog and the public.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think Julian is likely trying to get a rise out of people by referencing to Service Dogs of America. Sometimes people don't have the best of taste when trying to be 'funny'.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Chip- your instincts are right. Most malinois or dutchies are terrible service dog prospects.
> 
> For the same reasons many are such great police or military dog prospects, or top sport dogs.


Well I see "Deb" already addressed it was gonna say ... there is always that Guy/Lady.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> I think Julian is likely trying to get a rise out of people by referencing to Service Dogs of America. Sometimes people don't have the best of taste when trying to be 'funny'.


Oh I have no idea what "Julian" is doing??? Most likely just trying to stir up trouble??? I'm so tempted to take the bait ... but I shall resist the urge. >

You've told us what your "GSD" I belive it is?? Did under circumstance "similar" to what "Muskeg" outlined. I remember asking about it becasue I was impressed!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Julian, no, they don't. Malinois really do not make good service dogs. Detection, police, avalanche, search and rescue, military, sports (almost any) yes. Malinois excel. But service dogs for a disabled person who is not an experienced handler and may be incapacitated and unable to handle the dog at times and in public? Absolutely not.
> 
> Imagine the handler had a seizure-alert malinois and had a seizure in public. Very very few malinois would be into allowing strangers to approach and assist an incapacitated handler. It's not even a training issue... how would you reliably train for that scenario? The dog could very easily get shot by police in this scenario. That's a criminal example of setting a dog up to fail.
> 
> ...


]
Thank you ... I can say based on my experiance "now" it's mostly likely a good idea to have some idea of what your getting into before venturing into any "different" breed of Working Line Dog???

I tried that "lack of understanding bit" with "Rocky" ... worked out well in the long run. 

But as they say and apparently it's quite true. A picture is worth a thousand words. I saw "Larry's" Mal working and I was stunned ... that dog was intense! :surprise: 

An owner would need to be quick on there feet to stay in front of that much dog. I hear there are also "pet quality Mal's" out there???

I'd not heard of such a thing ... but it strikes me as similar to an "American Line Boxer" vs a "Euro Boxer" kinda thing ... similar but different. Don't know bout Mal's??? The "Mal" rescues I've seen, list having owned a "Mal" as a requirement for rescue ... that strikes me as a bit restrictive?? 

But I suppose it falls under the same rescue policy as no female Boxers to homes that already have a female Boxer ... it does not work out well for most people. Mal rescues have seen plenty of fails I suppose???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> It obviously was serious enough for the op to come on here and post.
> @*selzer*, you don't have kids, but would you bring your dog that nipped a niece out when they were over? Or would you keep that dog separate? Especially if they are uncomfortable as described by the op?


I don't know. My nieces are currently 10, not 16. That is a huge difference. My nieces have been around my dogs since they were born -- the dogs, for the most part, albeit only a handful of times per year, but they have spent a week or so at a time at my home, and every one of my dogs know them, now. 

When I got Cujo back at 18 months old he was crazy, hyper, prong-collared, huge. He is the biggest dog on my place. I took the prong off, and the next day I took him to pick up my nieces at the horse barn. I found out that he has a deep dislike of horses. 

I got the girls in the back seat and started driving and he pooped, all over the crate in the back of the explorer. We stopped at the nearest place to clean that up. And the dog had to come out, and the girls were out, and they were 7.5 or 8 at the time, and he was scary. But I had to get the back cleaned out, and the girls were there and I couldn't have them hold his leash because he could have dragged them to Canada if he wanted to. But somehow we managed to get everything clean and freshened, with kids and dogs back in the vehicle and back on our way. 

That night the girls slept on the couch, and he slept behind them, behind a baby gate, in an x-pen with a doggy door to the outside. I put a cover on the x-pen so that he couldn't jump it and the baby gate and eat the girls while he slept. 

The next morning, I released him with the girls, and they became best buddies. I kept the girls with me so I could immediately interrupt anything, but he could have easily nipped or bitten them, before I could stop it. But I would have then stopped it and probably the dog would be put down, because 8 year old girls are not 16 year old boys. 

Greta also came back to me, after some inexperienced handling. The day she came back she nipped my contractor. She was comfortable in her kennel, and if she was loose, but if she felt trapped, she would try to defend herself. She also did one of those chicken-bites to my dad's rear end when he was over there feeding her while I was on vacation. In her defense, she had never met my dad. She did not break the skin, but there was a red mark. Evenso, her temperament as a youngster was a less than stellar. 

When the girls came over, I had them wait in the field the first day as she was barking at acting a fool at her gate. I let her out and then had the girls come into her kennel and put the food in her dish. Gretal came up to them and then they were able to pet her. But I always had them release her first, and then go into her kennel, never push into her kennel while she was in there. That worked for us. It might have been ok the other way, but I did not push the issue, understanding that that seemed to be a weak spot for her. By the next time the girls visited, Gretal loved them, and I trusted her with them, even around her food, and as she had EPI, she was very food oriented -- not aggressive, but she was always hungry and excited to eat. Gretal was not a hard or stubborn dog as her previous trainers thought, she was actually a little too soft and would shut down (thus the mistaken stubborn diagnoses). After settling in, I took her to classes and in about six months she took her CGC test and failed. But she only failed Supervised Separation -- the tenth test. And we did not practice that, and the way they did it, was to have me right there hiding on a chair behind a tarp, and she couldn't understand why I was back there hiding. Ah well. She wasn't a dog I would pass off on a stranger. Evenso, I did let her around the little girls. She died a few years ago. 

The girls have been hurt by my dogs. Not seriously, but banged with their heads, or dragged down by 4 month old puppies, or incidental connection with claws or teeth. And yes, I brushed them off, and had them try again. A bite is different because I bite is a deliberate injury on the part of the dog. 

Mostly though, the comparison is simply not equal because a 16 year old human is not a 7-10 year old child. At some point you need to draw a line, but that line has to be based in some reasoning. Wolves and lions treat adolescent pack members different then they treat cubs/pups. We are trying to decide how an animal should react to a scary adolescent-adult human stranger.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well ... since the OP is "ticked off" and is "outa here" as it were ... at this point now ... we do what we do here. Carry on regardless. That said, when I saw the title my first thought was the movie ... Max???
> 
> Soooo ... while looking at Larry Krhon, working with his "Mal" a... while obviously well trained, and well disciplined. That dog struck me as "freakishly ... intense???" Is that typical with a Mal???
> 
> ...


What you're seeing there is a dog that is external that was rewarded a lot for those commands and the barking packaged with the behaviors, probably because of frustration during the teaching of it. He doesn't know enough about training to stop it and i find that amusing. You can tell it bothers him too. He can cue the dog to stop but not continue to stay silent.

That is just an excited dog. The kinda dog I'm talking about will jump up and nail you or grab your wrist or something.

A gsd mal cross can be like that but you're way more likely to see it in a working line mal. I own one but stay away from it get a mal or get a gsd. If you want a gsd get a gsd if you want a mal get a mal. The two breeds have nothing to really offer each other.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> What you're seeing there is a dog that is external that was rewarded a lot for those commands and the barking packaged with the behaviors, probably because of frustration during the teaching of it. He doesn't know enough about training to stop it and i find that amusing. You can tell it bothers him too. He can cue the dog to stop but not continue to stay silent.
> 
> That is just an excited dog. The kinda dog I'm talking about will jump up and nail you or grab your wrist or something.
> 
> A gsd mal cross can be like that but you're way more likely to see it in a working line mal. I own one but stay away from it get a mal or get a gsd. If you want a gsd get a gsd if you want a mal get a mal. The two breeds have nothing to really offer each other.


Ugh ... now I'm back in the "Dumb it down mode???" You say he sees it?? But does not know how to stop it???

Larry's background is actually similar to mine ... dogs of "Molosser World" he is pretty much an unabashed "Rottie" guy and my preference is "Boxers." So he works quite well for me. 

But ... I do understand what your saying ... as his dog's level of "excitement" is clearly visible. But the dog is doing what he says. How would one address the over the top response ... to a dog doing what is required??? I have no idea, if a dog does as I request ... good enough?? What am I not seeing???


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> What you're seeing there is a dog that is external that was rewarded a lot for those commands and the barking packaged with the behaviors, probably because of frustration during the teaching of it. He doesn't know enough about training to stop it and i find that amusing. You can tell it bothers him too. He can cue the dog to stop but not continue to stay silent.
> 
> That is just an excited dog. The kinda dog I'm talking about will jump up and nail you or grab your wrist or something.


We have a club member with a Malinois - this is pretty much what she is like, but not so barky. Impressive obedience, but really needs a very experienced handler.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Ugh ... now I'm back in the "Dumb it down mode???" You say he sees it?? But does not know how to stop it???
> 
> Larry's background is actually similar to mine ... dogs of "Molosser World" he is pretty much an unabashed "Rottie" guy and my preference is "Boxers." So he works quite well for me.
> 
> But ... I do understand what your saying ... as his dog's level of "excitement" is clearly visible. But the dog is doing what he says. How would one address the over the top response ... to a dog doing what is required??? I have no idea, if a dog does as I request ... good enough?? What am I not seeing???


He doesnt want the dog barking through the routine and the dog barks through his routine. 

How you address that goes into realm of you gotta pay me for that. He trains dogs for a living and he doesn't know. Why should I give the secret out for free?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> He doesnt want the dog barking through the routine and the dog barks through his routine.
> 
> How you address that goes into realm of you gotta pay me for that. He trains dogs for a living and he doesn't know. Why should I give the secret out for free?


LOL ... outstanding!! Apparently despite all the ... "people can't learn crap over the internet" advise that is frequently given here ... you understand ... that some of us can.  

And yes ... "I'm that guy!" I only need to know ... just enough ... and I can figure the rest out. Thousands know of "Place and Sit on the Dog" becasue of you and I do give you full credit for that ... just saying.

But ... no problem ... ... I'll figure it out. Heck ... I could go against my own advise hmm ... yet again and get a both a female Boxer puppy (a breed infamous for female aggression) and a female MAL at once ... (two puppies at once)! Most likely ... that would be exciting! :laugh2:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The actual explaination for what needs to happen can occur over the internet but the getting it done part probably needs to be coached. It's a little dance to divorce the barking from the commanded behavior itself without damaging the behavior. Is the dog training equivalent of brain surgery.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> One of the main criteria of service dogs is NO human or animal aggression. They have to be able to go anywhere and everywhere with their handlers and safely interact around unruly dogs and all types of people doing various activities.





Muskeg said:


> Julian, no, they don't. Malinois really do not make good service dogs. Detection, police, avalanche, search and rescue, military, sports (almost any) yes. Malinois excel. But service dogs for a disabled person who is not an experienced handler and may be incapacitated and unable to handle the dog at times and in public? Absolutely not.
> 
> Imagine the handler had a seizure-alert malinois and had a seizure in public. Very very few malinois would be into allowing strangers to approach and assist an incapacitated handler. It's not even a training issue... how would you reliably train for that scenario? The dog could very easily get shot by police in this scenario. That's a criminal example of setting a dog up to fail.
> 
> ...





Deb said:


> I think Julian is likely trying to get a rise out of people by referencing to Service Dogs of America. Sometimes people don't have the best of taste when trying to be 'funny'.





Chip18 said:


> ]
> Thank you ... I can say based on my experiance "now" it's mostly likely a good idea to have some idea of what your getting into before venturing into any "different" breed of Working Line Dog???
> 
> I tried that "lack of understanding bit" with "Rocky" ... worked out well in the long run.
> ...


Just type in "malinois service dog" into youtube and you will find loads of malinois doing the service work. Whether it be for people with seizures or disabled children, they excel in all sorts of fields. I understand many of them are "hyper" and "aggressive", but just like with GSDs there are calmer lines.
Don't generalize because your trainer's dog acts a certain way.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Just type in "malinois service dog" into youtube and you will find loads of malinois doing the service work. Whether it be for people with seizures or disabled children, they excel in all sorts of fields. I understand many of them are "hyper" and "aggressive", but just like with GSDs there are calmer lines.
> Don't generalize because your trainer's dog acts a certain way.


You don't get it. The chances of a dog whose genetics are prone to aggression washing out is good. Start with a suitable breed unless you want to keep starting over. Most likely the Mals you are seeing are show line.

There is no standard certifications for service dogs. Anybody can slap a $50.00 vest on from Amazon and call a dog a service dog, DIY. Many a service dog has bitten a human or mauled an animal, that is why there is an outcry for government regulation for service dogs that are being forced on innocent people and animals.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You don't get it. The chances of a dog whose genetics are prone to aggression washing out is good. Start with a suitable breed unless you want to keep starting over. Most likely the Mals you are seeing are show line.
> 
> There is no standard certifications for service dogs. Anybody can slap a $50.00 vest on from Amazon and call a dog a service dog, DIY. Many a service dog has bitten a human or mauled an animal, that is why there is an outcry for government regulation for service dogs that are being forced on innocent people and animals.


Fine, whatever you say. I honestly don't even care.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Just type in "malinois service dog" into youtube and you will find loads of malinois doing the service work. Whether it be for people with seizures or disabled children, they excel in all sorts of fields. I understand many of them are "hyper" and "aggressive", but just like with GSDs there are calmer lines.
> Don't generalize because your trainer's dog acts a certain way.


LOL ... a "Dog Park" beat down???? 

No one is really disputing that a "Mal" with the right owner could do the service dog thing?? Deb already posted that she knows such a pair. 

But what are the odds ... starting out with tamping down not biting the crap out of people ... is pretty much a crappy start??? Seeing Eye Dogs of America ( I belive that's right???) Has already made there choice and they choose "Labs and Goldens" over GSD's. More dogs and more suitable owners available. I would imagine ... don't know not my thing. But there are still WL GSD's out there being specifically breed by those in that field ... that can still do that job also. I was surprised ... but they are out there. 

But some random (and I will lower the bar and specific Pet Quality) Mal and some random client that needs a "Service Dog" and may or may not be also a confident dog handler??? It seems like a pretty big task to me??? 

Mal's just strike me as a pretty poor prospect for service dog work ... why bother??? On TV many many years ago ... I saw a "Seeing Eye Boxer??? But of course I was stunned. I've not seen another one on TV or in Real Life since. But I have seen Labs and Goldens doing that job. Picking the right dog for the job at hand ... is always good advise. But you know ... people do stuff.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is no standard certifications for service dogs. Anybody can slap a $50.00 vest on from Amazon and call a dog a service dog, DIY.


Oh ... a hidden challenge ... I bet I could find a "Service Dog" vest in an Ex Large size for "Rocky" for under $50 bucks??? But I suppose ... considering his "Wobble Issue" I should spend that time looking for a "Service Dog Handler" T-Shirt. :laugh2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Show me a working seeing-eye malinois, a real one, and I'll show you the unicorn that comes to my bird feeder.

I love malinois. They are versatile and with an able handler can act just like a service dog would, as far as being perfectly behaved in public. But if the handler goes down or is incapacitated, it could be a serious problem for the dog, and public. And that is no risk I'm going to take. 

The service dog industry is worse than the protection dog industry as far as fake, fraud, and so on. Any service dog trainer who recommends the malinois breed for service dog work, I would question their reasons and legitimacy. 

I'm sure there are some exceptions, maybe in show line, but those exceptions are probably a poor representative of breed type if they do not carry that suspicion and aggression that is natural in most malinois.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Here's my malinois doing a demo in a room full of elementary kids. She has a very nice temperament, even so I would not consider her a service dog candidate.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I am so late to this party, and I think the OP is gone, so it's probably silly to post now, but why not?

I agree with Wolfy that sometimes people use certain words to make things sound less damaging than they really are. But I think we would would all agree that there ARE differences. If I were categorizing them, I would say 1) A nip that doesn't break the skin is different from one that does. 2) A dog that bites and releases quickly is different from 3) one who bites and crushes someone's hand or tries to tear off a piece of flesh. And, to me, even that is different from 4) a dog who goes for the face or throat or who bites multiple times or mauls. Are any of these behaviors OK? Of course not. In my world, dogs do not ever intentionally put their teeth on me or anyone else. Max was very docile and although Newlie might wrestle with someone a bit if they are doing something he doesn't like, he does not bite. He just uses his (considerable) strength to try to break free.

As several have pointed out, this is a big dog who is capable of inflicting a lot of damage and yet has chosen not to even break the skin. So, it seems that to me that this situation might be salvageable, that is with help. And that's what bothers me here. I went back and read the thread again, and I may still be doing him an injustice, but I don't feel that the OP is taking this as seriously as he should. If a dog had bitten a child of mine once, he would not have not been allowed the chance to do it again until he had been evaluated by a professional. Many posters advised an evaluation and training, but I saw no acknowledgement or commitment to it by the OP. So, I think he is planning to handle this on his own and that worries me.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A good handler can push the square peg through the circular hole and make it work seemingly without effort where a normal service dog handler would struggle to the point of failure with certain dogs. Genetically most "legit" service dogs are the proper balance of easy going and just active enough to do their tasks but not active enough to get crazy for some new stimuli. They straight up breed for it.

The further away from that ideal you go the better the human has to be. Malinois is gonna typically be pretty far from that ideal.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

KnightRider said:


> . I was running a business at 16.
> Young men fought in wars at 16, made decisions in combat.
> .


I sense determination .....culpability....someone using their resources......definitely not a quitter.

Lots of input in this thread,

I'm gonna go with.............the dog is going to get what it needs to enjoy the life it's being offered......go for it.


SuperG


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