# Sudden Aggression Bursts..Need Your Expertise



## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Guys, I explained you everything about my dog. I have a specific question. If a dog suddenly attacks to his owner, for no reason or other people, what would you think that this dog has a temperament problem? Can this be due to inbreeding or improper breeding?. I also know that some medical conditions, such as brain tumor can cause this. But from temprerament standpoint, what would you think about a dog like this? and this dog has nerver been exposed any type of abuse, he was grown in a perfect family environment, but after 16 months old, all of a sudden change?. He doesn't growl just directly attacks then bites then growls. What would ya think about this dog?Please share your thoughts with me. Thanks


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I hope I am right-- but my sense *from your other posts *is: that this may be actually a normal dog with a normal temperament.. that has turned into a dangerous teenaged tyrant because he was never given firm leadership, but the opposite.

The last time your dog bit you, you had allowed him up on the bed.







You didn't want him up there all the way this time, and he disciplined you for stopping him. THEN-- you gave him a treat after he bit you! A smart dog would learn to bite faster.. get to the cookie sooner next time!









Yes, it is possible this dog _may_ have a brain tumor, bad temperament, thyroid condition, etc... but from your posts, this sounds like a dog who is enforcing *his* rules, *his* way, at the teenaged stage... because he hasn't had a strong enough leader.

*Strong leaders never hit or yell*. They never hurt the dog, but: They practice NILIF. They ignore a dog who pushes with his nose at them for a treat or a game. They decide when treats and games happen. *Strong leaders are calm *and in control. Strong leaders usually don't allow dogs on furniture, and never beds, when the dog is pushy by nature. Strong leaders decide when playtime is over-- and collect the toys, because they belong to the leader, not the dog. Good leaders are consistant-- no jumping on me means no jumping on grandma, the neighbor, on anyone-- even if the dog is excited or just happy. Strong leaders reward calmly.. with verbal praise, eye contact, food, toys. Some pushy dogs can never have a food reward without becoming more pushy... it depends on how pushy the dog is.

How about getting an evaluation and training help? <span style="color: #3333FF">*In your last post, I sent you phone numbers of 3 trainers in Istanbul, Turkey.*</span> Wouldn't it be great if the problem was just a lack of consistant, firm, loving leadership? THAT can be fixed!








So many books, forum members with advice, DVDs, etc out there to guide us and help us provide better leadership for Mr. Pushy!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That's true, Patti. And just in case, you can live with dogs with bad temperament by just being fair and consistent. 

Here, Kramer and Ilsa are the ones with poor temperament who will test. Ilsa has been on NILIF from the day she walked in the door and when I slack off, she fills in that space with behaviors. Even taking her for a car ride gives her delusions of grandeur with me and the other dogs, so she has to have a brain wash after we do things.









Kramer has been on NILIF for about 12-13 years. I don't do it so much with him now and he'll tag me from time to time, but he's almost 16 and I am at the point with him where it does us both good to have him feisty and challenging me-it keeps him young. I don't recommend that for a young dog of course! But to show you that NILIF for some dogs isn't a couple of weeks, but may need to last a lifetime-or it may not-but when you aren't sure, it's safer to go with the longterm approach and idea. 

With Kramer, when we first started adjusting both of our attitudes, everything he did was my idea. So if he sat, I'd tell him good sit. Down-same thing-so he'd get up, and I'd tell him good stand. It drove him crazy-but he will still ask to get on the couch-so that stuck! 

EVERY day, when I get up with those two, it's them watching me to see if I will let up on them. Both Kramer and Ilsa are likely Chow mixes with Shepherd for Kramer and maybe Terv for Ilsa. You can not physically push these dogs around because it is just not something they respond to. You have to out think them. Which I admit, I do not always do!

I am betting with your GSD, that this behavior will go away over time, and that he will automatically do things with less and less structure. But if not, just know it's possible to live with a dog with or without poor temperament using a very simple, fair, loving and non-confrontational method.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I am beginning to question labeling dogs as "bad temperment" -- they're just good solid dogs that ask "why?" when asked to do something and expect a good answer to be sold on any program you might have in mind. (My read of Clothier, Campbell, & others)

So far as the OP goes -- I think she might benefit from reading Susan Clothier's "...Bones would Rain from the Sky." She discusses an afghan dog that developed a behavior much like the one you are describing. Been "cooing" to your dog perhaps? Catering to your dog? Other wise telling your dog he calls the shots? I thought so! Really take a look at Susan's book. I think you'll find it helpful.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Oftentimes we'll think "no reason" when in fact in the dog's point of view, the reasons and indications and warnings are enough to fill a book. From your last post, there are TONS of reasons that I can see. I bet if a bunch of us went in person to see you and your dog interact, we could probably come up with a bunch more. Warnings could be holding breath, "pursing" the lips (the lips tightening forward, even slightly), hardening stare, stiffening posture, those are all minute warning signs to us but they speak volumes to the dog. 

I suggest reading Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of the Leash." In that book is a great example of how the seemingly tiniest body language can provoke an attack "out of nowhere." So really, there is very, VERY rarely any attack that happens without warning, without provocation, without indication. 16 months of age is basically like a senior in high school. Your dog's maturing into an adult and his hormones are screaming to him to settle his place in the world. If you are not a strong, fair, consistent leader, he will do what comes naturally to him and assume what should be YOUR role. Most dogs are more than happy to cede the responsibilities and stress of leadership to their owners once it's clear the owner has finally "owned up." What have you done since your initial post requesting help to change the way you live with your dog?

Regarding nerve strength and temperament, this is tough to tell without experience. Your dog could be very calm and stable and of great temperament, just very demanding that there be a strong leader in the house. Some dogs are content to allow weaker people to lead whereas others will always be looking for ****** in the "armor," testing and keeping owners on their toes. My dog tests us constantly, seeing if he can put his paws on the couch and seeing if we'll tolerate this or tolerate that, and he knows he can get away with a lot more with my DF than with hardass Mom (me). But he also listens to be better and is closer to me. He must know it's good to suck up to the boss.







But with a weak person, someone who would be lax in the rules, Renji could very well be a liability. With someone who knows what they are doing (or is good at faking it), he's fine, but we do have to maintain NILIF. He earns privileges over time by proving himself trustworthy and self-controlled. He's slowly earning the right to freedom from the crate, but I don't think he'll ever get rights to a couch. I notice with him that if we give an inch, he'll try to take a mile.







With your dog, you need to put him through "Doggy Boot Camp" and revoke EVERY right and privilege. He eats and drinks by your grace, heck, he exists by your permission. This is nothing mean nor should it be mean and nasty, it's just tough and strong love.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Without directly stating your opinion it's beginning to sound to me like you are adamant in your opinion that the dog is genetically flawed somehow because of where you purchased the dog. This is entirely understandable because literally every thread on choosing a puppy here is dominated by breeders and their customers extolling the virtues of getting a dog from a "reputable breeder". Anything else is just a crap shoot and most GSD not from reputable breeders and from the notorious backyard breeders will invariably be ticking time bombs just waiting to go off. You can not possibly be expected to be responsible for the behaviour of such a genetically inferior, psychotic animal. If this is indeed your opinion I see no other alternative but for you to euthanize the dog as you could never trust it to not twist off again and viciously attack you or a family member out of the clear blue sky. You certainly could not, in good conscience, give it away or sell it to someone else knowing that the dog is genetically inferior, temperament-wise.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Chris thank you for your response. In the United States, german shepherds are destroyed. I'm sorry to say this. But most of the people like even Ed Frawley agress with this. I also questioning myself, cause my dog bit me first, but 2 days later after it bit me, he bit my dad for no reason in front of my eyes. You can't know how sorry I'm. I raised him with love and discipline. He was on training 6 months. He is a darling but maybe there is a bad gene in him. He is extremely obedient. But he shows sudden aggression bursts and what I read in the internet this is very common in the U.S in petland puppies. (cause I got my dog in Fort Lauderdale). Cause these puppies aren't done temperemant tests and even their parents are mated randomly, just to make money in puppy mills and petland buy puppies from puppymills located all over the country. Believe me, before blaming my baby boy, I question myself asking '' where was I wrong?''. This is a horrible experince for me. I always think about him and thinking that how he is gonna live without me, who is gonna give him clean water? who is gonna clean his ears?. I'm not blaming my dog totally never, but what I see made me relize that someting in my dog is not right. I can't trust him around my parents or a little child. I think paranoidly like ''if i get another gsd from a reputable breeder, is this gonna happen again?. I'm in love with this breed. This is such a big trauma but I'll overcome. I'll educate myself much more about this breed and dog psychology. Thank you everyone for your support..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also wouldn't be so quick to blame it on breeding/bad genes..

The majority of dogs, bought out of petland/pet stores, probably have more health problems vs behavioral problems. Even the weakest temperament of dogs, I'd bet 95% of them do NOT bite their owners. 

I've had rescues with baggage, I've bought dogs from breeders, I have never ever had one of them bite me..

I tend to agree that he sounds like a pushy male testing his boundaries, he wants what he wants when he wants it, and if he doesn't get it, he's going to push it more. 

I also agree, that while WE may not know the reason for a bad behavior,,a dog ALWAYS has a reason for doing what it does. 

If he's now living with your vet, he's probably being well taken care of so I wouldn't worry about him, atleast you know where he is.

As for getting one from a reputable breeder,,it doesn't necessarily matter where you get a dog from, it's more getting a dog that will fit into your lifestyle and being able to handle what they throw at you ))

I'm a firm believer in 'you get out of a dog what you put into a dog".

From reading your other posts, it sounds like he was alot of dog to handle, and needed a really firm hand 24/7, I'm sure he'll be fine with your vet.
Diane


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I also do not think this is a bad gene. If the very first bite happened *to the owner*... that tells me this may be a lack of leadership... this is fix-able! The second bite *a few days after being rewarded with a cookie following the first bite*... to another *family member*.. by a teeneged dog? Makes sense to me-- dominance issues going on, if he needs better leadership. If this were a bad gene, you would see him being aggressive towards EVERYBODY. This is a relationship issue. Bad genes don't start at age 13 months.. you would have seen this sooner. This may well be a teenaged male who has been spoiled. An easy mistake to make, when we love our dogs! I made the mistake too.. and got growled at!

Before giving up on this dog, see a trainer to learn if this is something you can correct in the relationship.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

I don't agree with you, Patti.
I don't consider myself a "strong" leader (via Cesar Milan) and I give in to my dogs (not if I don't want to), they go on the couch, bed, on top of me, never practice NILIF and still...no one has ever bitten or even growled me (except for the first year when I demanded to be alpha over my very first dog).
I know of plenty dogs who have never touched their humans despite that they didn't had "strong leaders".

To me this dogs temp. is clearly caused by bad breeding. The parents had probably similar temperaments and given all the conditions and stress during pregnancy and after birth what does one expect. Most if not all dogs from farms have temperament issues- if you get a dog who doesn't, you're very lucky, so please don't blame yourself.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I do agree with Patti and those who not consider this a genetic based problem. 

We had a somewhat related discussion about this regarding police dogs a while ago, because those dogs, sometimes hard and dominant, are not cut for every owner, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are bad bred dogs. Maedchen, you not only had been lucky with your dogs, you have been wise and chosen those dogs who pair you and your lifestyle and thank to that you have not faced issues in your relationship with them. The problem with buying in Petland may or may not be genetic, but the biggest problem is that nobody told VALIUM what he needed nor anybody knew that pup has an individual who would do better in one home or another.

Fear biting is always bad breeding, that I agree, but dominance biting is a bad match dog/owner/purpose/training.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

With my last dog, I could let him on the bed, give in when I wanted to-- but my current dog would be driven mad by this. Some GSDs can only truly _relax_ when a very tight ship is run. Some have such an itching dominance agenda, that what they see as "laxness" makes them jittery, frustrated, insecure, agitated until they can resolve the "crisis" of having an empty leadership spot filled. Tightening the rules makes them r-e-l-a-x. "Oh, thank GOD.. I *don't* have a big overthrow-the-wimp job to do!" My Grimm _isn't_ hugely dominant, but he is WAY more dominant than most pet GSDs. And there are others out there much more pushy than he is, who become bratty-snappy-growly when the stress of seeing the leadership spot empty is too much for them.

I know if someone gave me a treat when I bit someone, I might well bite them again... pepperoni pizza, please!

I would bet money this dog deserves a chance-- and some educated involvement from a trainer working with you to help set boundaries that he doesn't feel he needs to challenge.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaedchenI don't agree with you, Patti.
> I don't consider myself a "strong" leader (via Cesar Milan) and I give in to my dogs (not if I don't want to), they go on the couch, bed, on top of me, never practice NILIF and still...no one has ever bitten or even growled me (except for the first year when I demanded to be alpha over my very first dog).
> I know of plenty dogs who have never touched their humans despite that they didn't had "strong leaders".
> 
> To me this dogs temp. is clearly caused by bad breeding. The parents had probably similar temperaments and given all the conditions and stress during pregnancy and after birth what does one expect. Most if not all dogs from farms have temperament issues- if you get a dog who doesn't, you're very lucky, so please don't blame yourself.


Maedchen, I think you just got lucky with your dogs or you were a good leader in the eyes of your dogs.







Cesar Millan to me is not the best example of a leader. He looks to lead more through fear. If a dog bit its owner in response to the alpha roll, I'd say "good for you, Dog." It IS true that poor breeding tends to yield poor temperament, but we just cannot judge this dog to possess bad temperament until the owner is living with this dog differently. 

The dog would have poor genetics if it were living with a good leader and still exhibiting problems where a qualified behaviorist would even say "that bite didn't make sense." Okay that's just one example of many possible presentations of bad temperament, but we should not be so quick to blame fixable problems on things we cannot control. Besides, if the dog bit you on the head as you said, I think if it were truly wired poorly, you wouldn't be here writing this. Sounds like you have a big GSD that gave you a warning bite and humans simply have no fur and weak skin. As it stands, we don't know if VALIUM changed the dog's life much and even if things were changed, it would take weeks to have a clear improvement. It's not just VALIUM who needs to change, but EVERYONE who deals with the dog also needs to abide by the NILIF rules. Some dogs are stronger than others and will snatch up an open leadership position if they perceive there is one. Other dogs just don't care as much about that and are content with the status quo.

We just don't know enough yet to determine whether the dog's actions are more a result of temperament or training/raising. If VALIUM can start doing things exactly right and give it a month, things can be reassessed. But the BEST way to know would be to get with a truly qualified behaviorist who does understand behavior, aggression, and canine psychology inside and out.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

As someone who has rehabilitated several fearful and/or aggressive dogs of known and unknown breeding, I'd like to weigh in here. 


There are lots of reasons for SUDDEN onsets of aggression. The very first thing I would check is health. There are very few dogs out there who cannot be rehabilitated given the proper training. This is espectially true of young dogs. It takes commitment on the part of the owner in the form of patience and a lot of work. That said, there really are a small number of dogs who have a screw loose and do become aggressive for no reason whatsoever. This is VERY rare though. 

Again and again we see examples of dogs on this board who become "suddenly" human and (more often) dog aggressive. However, when we take apart the circumstances surrounding their "attacks" we usually find that they weren't sudden attacks at all. That is the point that Patti and Diana are making above. Most often such "attacks" occur because the dogs are not given clear boundaries and the people are not fair and clear leaders. 

Finally, fear biting is NOT always from bad breeding. Basu was a fear biter and he was very well bred. He was not, however, well handled before I adopted him. Although he was owned by an educated person, he was not trained, he was abused and he was neglected. He endured this treatment for 4.5 years. 

Had I left him to his own devices I would have had to euthanize him as he would have bitten repeatedly. Instead I put him on a very strict NILIF regime, took him through Advanced Obedience classes, set rules for him inside and outside of the house, properly exercised him and taught him that I made the decisions.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> Finally, fear biting is NOT always from bad breeding. Basu was a fear biter and he was very well bred. He was not, however, well handled before I adopted him. Although he was owned by an educated person, he was not trained, he was abused and he was neglected. He endured this treatment for 4.5 years.


You are absolutely right.

What I should have said is that fear biting is never a good thing and fear biters are never recommended for breeding, at least those who can't overcome their problem with good training and handling; while dominance is something that, depending on the goals of the breeder program, is not intrinsically bad and in many cases seek for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the problem is a leadership problem, getting a dog from a reputable breeder will not help the OP. 

Blaming the dog's origins will not encourage the OP to adjust his leadership style. 

I hope the next dog he gets is one of the many in the breed that does not require NILIF. Then he will believe that it is a mystery bad-dog gene and he will feel so much better about giving up on the dog. And hopefully, the new pup will not share the same fate. 

After having Frodo, I did not want to get the dominant, independent pup in the litter when I went to get my next male. So I asked the breeder if there was a pup that was the dominant one. He went and picked one up. I said, "Good, I do not want him" and picked another pup. This actually worked for me. 

So it is really wise to read a few books about raising pups, and choosing puppies before you go out and find another dog. Talk to the breeder about the traits each puppy has and choose carefully. 

There is no way for me to know that your dog is not ill, does not have a genetic predisposition to aggression, was not imprinted badly in its neonatal and early socialization period, but I do not believe it. I think you landed with the pup in the litter that will keep the owner on his toes. Getting it from a pet store means that you cannot evaluate the pup in its litter. 

I really believe that if this was a genetically marred dog, it would not have taken a year or more for this to manifest itself. 

As a breeder, in response to previous post, I do not think that Petland is the problem here. I think people can get dogs from ANYWHERE that turn out just fine. Going to a reputable breeder stacks the deck in your favor physically and mentally, by ensuring the sire and dam are sound, health certified, and temperament tested by having earned titles or by performing a job that requires a sound, intelligent dog. Going to a reputable breeder means that you are supporting someone who is working for the breed, not someone who is likely to drag it down. Going to a reputable breeder may mean having a warranty on the puppy. Going to a reputable breeder should ensure that the puppy and the breeder's other dogs are given proper care. Going to a reputable breeder should mean that the new owner will be able to ask for guidance with his dog. 

There are way too many people on this site and out there in the world that got their GSD out of a newspaper for a couple of hundred dollars or less, that are perfectly happy with their dogs for us to claim that anything less than a reputable breeder means a dog with bad temperament and/or poor health. 

If you want to be sure about what your are getting, buy a dog that is an adult, that is already trained/titled and health certified.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok first of all, you cannot blanket the US as destroying German Shepherds because they've bitten. This is simply not true. #1 The entire US does not work like this and #2 singling out GSD's like this is just not fair. Our civilization is way to quick to putting an animal down if it bites, but let's not get crazy here. Where I live if a dog is deemed vicious, the owner is ordered to remove it from the city limits it's not ordered to be destroyed! 

I have experienced what I thought was "out of the blue what the ****'s wrong with this dog" aggressive behavior with my own male. I've even said (while scratching my head wondering) that this dog must have a bent gene somewhere because it sure didn't seem to be a reason for these outbursts. Once I had a chance to step back and evaluate each situation, I have always found the reason why the dog acted the way he did and that reason has always been HUMAN ERROR. The dog was being a dog/animal, the human is the one who screwed up. Each incident is a learning tool for me and I keep chugging in a forward-ly direction to make things right. Progress is slow but I do have progress. It sounds like maybe you have the same problem I do, the dog has a more dominant personality that the owner. Unless you're willing to step up and become more dominant than the dog, this is not a good personality match at all. This dog needs to be with an experienced GSD dominant personality owner is what I'm thinking.

Have you listened to yourself? You are thinking of and treating this dog like a human and totally disregarding the excellent answers that are being given to you for the question(s) you asked. I don't mean to sound rude but you do sound like a broken record when you blame the breeder or his heritage or whatever. I'm not saying there isn't something physically wrong with this dog, I'm not a vet, but I think you need to get past blaming someone or something else and take a good hard HONEST look at yourself as his owner. Someone asked if he's been evaluated by a dog behaviorist or some kind of expert. Have you done this? Has any truly knowledgable dog person had a chance to watch you interact with your dog for say the day or even an afternoon or morning? You would probably be very surprised to watch a video of yourself interacting on a normal day with your dog. We humans do things out of habit without thinking of the consequences sometimes. For example, for one day pay attention to what's going on around you & the dog, more importantly pay attention to what what the dog is doing when you give him any kind of affection. If you are hugging him, petting him, providing any kind of affection when he's doing something inappropriate, what you're doing is re-inforcing his bad behavior as being a good thing. For example, lets say your dog wants to jump through the window eat the mail person every single day after day after day. If you are telling him "it's ok it's just the mail guy" thinking you can calm him that way - this ain't the way to tell him his actions are inappropriate. Whatever activity or behavior he gets affection or a treat for doing, in his mind this is what he's supposed to do in order to get the treat so he's going to continue the bad behavior.

If you decide to have a behaviorist or trainer evaluate, please don't just pick someone because they have a title that reads what you need. This is not a slam on dog behaviorists or trainers, but I've been told and found in my own experience that unless they specialize in protective breed dogs, they probably aren't going to be able to help you be totally successful in trying to rehabilitate the dog, especially one who's already gotten the idea that biting "Dad" is an acceptable activity. A dog is a dog and dog behavior is dog behavior but protective breed dogs seem to need a little something extra over and above your average dog. I took ours to a dog behaviorist, who identified my dog not as aggressive but as being "dog rude" and *extremely* dominant. Very nice lady with some good ideas which we do use a few of but her ideas were geared for your average dog, not for an extremely strong-willed dog who wants to eat the mail person and the neighbors on the other side of the fence who by the way have lived there long before he came to live with us. My male has been seen by about six different experienced dog people, I've explained aggressive instances to them and they have all said the same thing "the dog is not aggressive he's just one of the most dominant personalities they've ever seen."

The biggest problem with my dog other than his dominance is that he's just way to overprotective of me. These are things I unknowingly allowed to happen and in my own unknowing way promoted it to happen. I had no idea that some of the behaviors I was practicing with my dog would cause the problems I'm dealing with because I didn't do things right. I was to easy on him, felt sorry for him because he was a rescue, loved the living dickens out of him huggy huggy all the time. Hugging a dog is for US humans, I was satisfying my own need to cuddle up to something warm and fuzzy. This wasn't doing my dog any good at all, all he was seeing was weakness and that he needed to protect me ... from EVERYTHING!

The fact that your dog bit YOU does have me worried. I don't believe dogs will bite the hand that feeds them without good reason. I'm not insinuating you've abused the dog in any way, what I am saying is that it sounds to me like you are not providing what this dog really needs and he's not taking you seriously as his pack leader. It also sounds like part of his problem may be cabin fever. I can see my own dog pacing when he needs to get out of the house and doooooo something other than just to potty. If he's not getting enough good, constructive exercise he's going to need to vent somehow and the need to vent can manifest in aggresssion.

You raised him with love & discipline. That was my first mistake - discipline needs to come before the love. If you decide to re-home your dog he WILL live without you. You are NOT the the only person in the entire world capable of caring for this dog.. Whoever takes him into their home will take care of him. Granted it's hard to give a dog up but it seems that if you are not going to follow good advice, get some help from a GOOD trainer, then this dog will remain dangerous as long as it's in your care. 

You are not dealing with a milk-toast breed of dog here, you're dealing with a protective breed dog. A dog is a dog and will act on things based on their heredity, their personality etc. Yes, you can have the same problems with a mellower breed .. but a protective breed dog needs even more stability, discipline and an owner who understands not only animal & dog behavior but that the dog must not be treated like a human (my own mistake again!) and *some* will need a very firm hand that provides for the dog in consistent ways as in we don't do the same thing one way today and another way tomorrow. 

You say your dog was in training for 6mos. My own dog just spent 4mos with a professional trainer. That doesn't mean I can just drop the ball where the trainer left off. It doesn't work that way. You don't train a dog for a few months and consider your job done. I would think that most if not all dogs will always remember their "sit" "down" kind of commands but I've been told that living successfully with a dog also means if you do some special training, you must "use it or lose it." What happened with mine is that the trainer has a more dominant personality than I do. He was able to get my dog to a level where he will respond more quickly and reliably to me. I do not believe I could have done this on my own, not within a reasonable time frame. Because the dog was dangerous, it was not the time to be dawdling while I learned the right way to do this or that. Pretty much the trainer made it easier for me to work with my dog, he did not create a miracle dog. This dog will probably never control himself (which would have been the miracle). I need to always have control of him. I cannot be the mushball Mom that he had before he went for training. He needs to know that I am the boss, that *I will protect him*! Does that make sense?

I too, was "in love with the breed" and more specifically I *adore* my dog. I learned the hard, expensive way that being so attached to the dog or the breed makes for a very dangerous dog. I don't want to be one of those people that is ordered to remove my dog from the city limits permanently, that would break my heart. I also learned that loving a dog to much is no different than loving a human to much - love hurts when it's not appropriate. In the case of a dog they can turn aggressive from suffocation.

The fact that you are nervous when your dog is in the same place as another human is something the dog picks up on, they zero in on this, it makes for instability and you've created the potential for an aggressive outburst. As long as you are uncomfortable around this dog, you are not the right owner for him because he's picking up on your nervous energy which translates into a nightmare waiting to happen.

Oh geez, shut up already, Mom ... sorry for the long version!


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi everyone, thank you for your ideas. I got my dog back, I have his kennel (the one i bought for transportation). And during the nights I'm gonna kennel him, I'm gonna use NILIF as much as it takes..Maybe I'll apply NILIF forever, I don't care I love him. I have to be firm, consistent and loving. I'll do this. I want to succeed this step. Thank you for your help. I'll be needing for your help. But I'll apply NILIF. Before blaming my dog, I was questioning myself such as '' Where did I make the mistake?''. I was told that my dog has some temperament issues, cause some people think that a dog never bites his owner. Thank god, I'm a member of this forum and getting help. Hopefully things are gonna work. This is it for now, now he is in his kennel. Thank you everyone. I'll give you updates.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Dogs bite because they are gentically unsound.

Dogs bite because they are afraid.

Dogs bite because they are possessive.

Dogs bite because they think they are in charge.

Rule out the FIXABLE reasons (afraid, possessive, in chrage) and only THEN can you say that a dog bites because they are genetically unsound.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Please don't be worried, Valium. My dog growled at me-- and was serious about it-- because I needed to do NILIF with him. We are so much better now, but it took hard work. I had to change. We will all help you here, Valium! Good for you for working to be the best leader your dog can have. In time, he will soon see the rules have changed. This can get much better with time-- and work! There is much to read on the net about dominant dogs.. try Leerburg's site for articles that are about dominant dogs that are easy to read.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I think a dog with an itchy trigger finger and no respect for its owners WILL bite. This doesn't mean the dog has bad temperament, just more reactive. This can be at least mostly fixed by strong leadership.

VALIUM, sounds great about kenneling him through the night. Make sure he does NOT get up on the furniture, the point of crating him during the day or blocking access to the furniture in some way. Close off the bedroom door and any other rooms, just leaving him access to the main area. Get a gate for the kitchen as well, only allowing him in when you choose. This of course depends on your layout, but controlling access is a great way to tell him about his recent demotion.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It sounds like the aggression started shortly after you moved??
If so, he was probably just not taught that your new home is not HIS to run. When moving to a new location you have to set boundaries, at least at first.
Try the NILIF for a while - if he was fine before the move, he'll be fine again in time. Good for you for taking everyone's advice!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> Cesar Millan to me is not the best example of a leader. He looks to lead more through fear.


DianaM: I'm very curious to know where you see leadership through fear in Cesar's way of doing things. Would appreciate more info, thanks!


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

He growls my mom and dad horribly..when they get near his kennel, he growls and then his hackles goes up and gets very aggressive, I say no no no..he doesn't listen to me?. What now?. If he was out of kennel, he would attack my mom for sure. We are in turkey for the past 3 weeks, he was fine during the first 2 weeks, he was wonderful with everyone..I just can't understand what I need to do. Do I have to shake the kennel when he growls? My dog wasn't like this guys, something is not wright. But, He got evaluated by an ex police officer in Fort Lauderdale and he told me that his nerves are very weak. For instance, when I walk him, if he sounds anoither dog barking, he gets nervous and just tries to go home. I'm trying to calm him down, but doesn't work. UFFFFFFF it is so hard..Any ideas? Thank you for your help again.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Forget the police officer's eval for now.... he evaluates dogs who charge into exploding gunfire, not normal dogs. Even if your dog does have weak nerves-- you would have seen growling problems as a tiny puppy. NEW growling/biting sounds like he has learned he is The Teenaged Boss of The House-- and *feels super-stressed from the move, still.*

<span style="color: #3333FF">*Valium, have Mom and Dad contact the trainers I gave you in Istanbul. Do it right away. This way, someone who knows dogs can help you.*</span>

He gets a reaction by growling, and can now be the boss and control the entire household... but it secretly isn't what he wants. He is scared, he just had a HUGE transition moving to Turkey, (_moving is terribly traumatic for many dogs, even with good nerves_) and he needs strong leadership to feel safe, calm-- and just be a normal dog.

*Have Mom and Dad call those numbers for trainers now*. They can help you learn to feel in control and safe around him, and give him the firm leadership that will ease him during this transition of the move. (my dog growled at ME right after we moved to Germany... he became a brat, too!!-- NILIF and firm training and *daily leadership made him calm* and relaxed again)

Don't worry, Valium. Just call the numbers for help. Don't throw your dog away thinking he "has bad nerves, suddenly causing growling." You love your dog and are smart to ask what to do. <span style="color: #FF6600">*Many of us have been in your situation or similar with our own dogs*</span>-- and with a daily leadership program and firm training, they are now happy, loving, safe family members.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Brightelf. The reason that I'm very concerned is biting. Has your dog ever bitten you in the head? Has your dog bitten your dad's arm really bad?. There is a serious aggression here, not just growling.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Has he been to a vet? Gotten all the bloodwork done? 

Is there anything new in his environment, the water, anything that could be making him sick?

Is he ever outside unattended? Where he can build a high stress level depending on the circumstances? Does he have a dog door and free access to the outside?

Having never been to Turkey, I have no idea if there are things that are common over there that can be dangerous to dogs. But I do know that dogs can get into things, and that little things can make a big difference. 

I don't think the point is temperament at this point, but making sure the health of the dog is okay, that there are no injuries-how did he get to Turkey-did anything happen in transport, etc. and that you can manage him well. Was he in quarantine?

For the crate, with new fosters of unknown background, I put a sheet over (as long as they don't pull it through the wire), to give it a den like feel, and then as I walk by as long as they are quiet, I toss in tiny pieces of good treat, and say good quiet, good quiet. All positive, ignoring them charging me or the other dogs, so that the crate is a safe place.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

This IS serious, I do agree-- and calling a trainer before a 3rd bite happens would be my next move, and quickly, so I can correct the relationship dynamics as soon as possible and get real help.

Huge changes in how you treat your dog as in NILIF will not make him more stressed, it will help him relax-- it is what he needs, especially when he feels so stressed after a recent move. (that is also when my problems with my dog happened, he felt I was even less a leader because after a move, i of course was distracted.. not being his leader well enough)

Don't feel alone. YES, too many of us have had growls turn to bites.... why not? The dog sees us react in fear to the growl, and thinks: "I am THE KING!" so a bite or two-- always to a family member-- often happens. The family member dynamic means it is more likely that this is a need for secure leadership. If this were bad temperament, he would have been growling from puppyhood, biting vets, friendly neighbors, the aunt that visits once a year, a kids on the street during your walk, etc.... strangers.

You need help before a 3rd bite happens. Your dog needs someone to understand, and then guide you to being a strong leader-- so he can stop trying to do that job... added stress on top of the move for him.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Can you describe the circumstances of both bites and the injuries in a lot of detail so that we can understand better.

Unfortunately German Shepherds are large, powerful dogs, so a warning nip can easily break the skin and cause considerable bruising. How was your dog with mouthing? When i was training my young dog for Schutzhund, I had many bad bruises and often bleeding hands when we were working on the off-leash heeling. I also got myself bitten by my own dogs while trying to break up a fight or rescue the cat. 

I agree with the rest of the posters - genetic bad nerves would have shown up from an early age.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DianaM
> ...


Just a brief example so I do not threadjack: whenever Cesar does a MINOR correction on Daddy, we're talking verbal only, Daddy immediately melts and collapses on the floor, belly-up. That is EXTREME submission, and for what! Minor things! Search back and find more threads on him and you'll find more examples. Alpha rolls are also fear-based methods.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

VALIUM, have you had your parents quietly walk by his kennel and toss small but delicious treats into the kennel without looking at the dog or talking to the dog? Shaking the kennel is going to teach him that A) kennels aren't safe and B) he must keep people AWAY from the kennel because PEOPLE SHAKE THE KENNEL! Is there any sort of bond between your dog and your parents? Do your parents feed him? Do any training with him? Anything positive at all other then defend against bites? 

Because of his history, I know if he were in this country there would be no way you could rehome this dog. I don't know if liability in Turkey is any different or if there are people who are knowledgeable enough and willing to take on a dog like this. 



> Quote:Has he been to a vet? Gotten all the bloodwork done?


Has he been to a vet? Gotten all the bloodwork done? 
Has he been to a vet? Gotten all the bloodwork done? 

Yes, there is a reason I parroted that snip over and over. You said this just recently started happening. There are FIXABLE medical issues that can cause these problems (and yes, also unfixable ones). If your dog is affected somehow or is reacting out of sheer pain, it is completely unfair to try to treat his behavior before you treat the medical problem. So has he had a complete and total workup yet, including the thyroid? I saw that you had him neutered. Great! You won't see any changes from that for a few weeks or even months, but every little bit helps. Still, did you have all the bloodwork possible done or discussed with a vet anything medical they could rule out?

ETA: You do deserve a big pat on the back for trying to overcome this. Many people would have ditched their dogs at the merest lip curl. I hope you can resolve the issues! Remember, the difficult dogs are the ones that always teach us the most. But also remember that EVERYONE who lives with the dog MUST be on the same page when it comes to training and living with the dog or else it simply will not work. Have you had your family read the threads to understand what needs to be done and what must be changed?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Are you sure that nobody in the family hit/threatened the dog after he acted aggressively? This may be a normal response but it can escalate the problem. It is very unlikely that a previously friendly dog will overnight start growling at people out of the crate. I have the feeling that someone did shake his crate and this will make your problem worse.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

No one even touched the crate..never ever, I was there. And they were talking to him with a very lovely voice. I'll get him evaluated by a dog psychologist asap. Please prey , I want my lovely boy back...


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm planning to him hospitalize in Istanbul University , School of Veterinary Medicine. So the doctors can do all the necessary medical evaluations and also psychologic ones. There is very good dog psychologist, I'm tryin to reach him. He is Professor of dog psychology. I'll let you know guys, I'll do everything for him. God helps me..I don't want to lose him. He is not in the house right now, he is in the backyard of my friend and the weather is kinda cold, does he get cold? I know they have double coat fur, but I'm worried((


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

He really should be indoors, otherwise makes sure he has good shelter he can access to stay out of the wind. I'm happy to hear he'll have a full medical evaluation, keep us posted!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

YAY Valium!! The veterinary and psychological evaluations will be the right thing to do. Good for you!! YES! Please let us know how this goes. I will be sending good energy your way...


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Thank you everyone, I'll keep you posted. thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a question about the parents giving the dog treats when they pass the kennel. 

My understanding is that the dog has hackles up, is growling and barking. If the parents throw a treat to the dog, doesn't that reinforce the aggressive behavior? 

If at all possible, have the parents completely ignore the dog for now. Once you have seen the trainer, you can start NILIF, etc. Then you can try to reintroduce you parents under better circumstances. 

I have one girl who raises her hackels, bears her teeth and barks her fool head off at my mom and dad when they go by her kennel as she does to anyone else who comes over. I live alone. However, if I open her kennel she does not attack. She runs out into the yard and stays away from the offensive person. If that person continues to ignore the dog and talks with me. Tori will get braver and come closer, to the point of sniffing. 

The difference is that Tori has never bitten anyone and she is afraid. Except for the hackles up, I am not hearing a lot of fear in your dog, and he is not afraid to bite people. So opening the kennel is not an option for you. Still, the dog knows that he is trapped in the kennel. Some will exhibit guarding behavior in such a circumstance.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

they haven't thrown anything, I was there. They just get close and said ''how is my little boy''. This happened in the 3rd week of our return. He was perfectly fine with my parents during the 1st two weeks of our stay, they hand fed him and there was no problem. They never yelled at him never, cause I never left the house. Guys right now, I'm calmer and feel that something is wrong with my boy. My parents refuse to come my home in the future, if I keep my dog and I'm a doctor, I'll have night shifts and I was planning to drop him off to my parent's place. But they say that they don't trust him. My family had a male golden retriever, my mom says he never did this to anyone, and he traveled a lot with them. He changed environments. I don't know, and second, I don't trust trainers in Turkey, most of them doesn't even know NILIF. I'm trapped emotionally. Thank you again


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Selzer, you wouldn't want to do it when the dogs are going apespit. You want to toss the treat in before the dog is in "crazy mode." They probably won't be able to get close and definitely won't be able to hang around, but it's a way to link people to yummy vending machines that are harmless.



> Quote:I don't trust trainers in Turkey, most of them doesn't even know NILIF.


How do they train over there? Any positive reinforcement or is it very much Koehler training (compulsion-based)?


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

I've heard that they hit..I don't know mand I don't trust. And I was told that trainer has come to my home, but this is impossible cause I live in the suburb. My parents were very nice to him. As I said before, they hand fed him and there wasn't any problem for the past 2 weeks. But, 2 months ago in the U.S, out of nowhere he tried to attack me. I came home the I pet him he was calm. Then, when I turned around he jumped on me like crazy. I was so afraid and didn't tell my roommate. I tought that mayebe he wasn't feeling well that day. My parents saved and rescued many street dogs in Turkey. My mom works for local humane society. But there isn't knowlegable people about this issue. He is trained and extremely obedient, he obeys commands such as sit, stay, off the couch, stop, wait and get off the couch. Problem isn't obedience here. He goes crazy out of the blue. I know my dog. Maybe he is extremely stressed but why he attacks me out of nowhere. And he didn't like my parents, he hadt to bite them first not me. I don't know, but i know that i CAN'T TRUST him around people in the house. As I said, there are going to be times that I won't be home during nights due to my job. So, how can I trust him that he won't harm my parents or any other person. He is a big dog, in worst case scenerio, an adult maybe resist him and can save his life. What if he attacks a child, how can I handle this situation?. These are the questions marks that I can't get out of my head. Thanks again. And Diana, He is neutered right now. After what happened I thought that if I needed to rehome him, probably they would try to breed him, and if there is an temperament issue , I don't want him to yield defective, unstable, puppies so that other people don't suffers as me. I feel horrible...I wish that these attacks have happened in the U.S. At least, I could get great professional help...


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

You should not have your dog around people until this problem is fixed. You are not powerless in this situation. There is a simple solution: he should not be near a child until he is safe. If someone comes to your house, he should be in a different room than the visitors and he should be crated. You can put a do not enter sign on the door. He should wear a muzzle when he is being walked and when he is around people, again until he can be trusted. You have the control where your dog goes and with whom he interacts. He should always be on the leash and muzzled when people are around. When you work the night shift, you can leave him in the crate, for example. 

There are plenty of people on this board who have dogs that have or had issues with people and other dogs and they are working on overcoming them. It is harder if you don't have a good trainer to work with, but you are getting excellent advice here.

Again, knowing the exact circumstances of the three incidents would be helpful.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Every now and then I think a person needs to either re-home a dog, or get professional help. 

If your dog is placed in a different home, my opinion is he needs some type of rehab center. As for professional help, I also think there are more options in the US. 

With that said, there are a few trainers that work with aggressive dogs , that might be able to provide help through the Internet.

There are some very scary things here, for example your comment about the dog attacks you.

Please send me a personal E Mail and I will recommend a few folks. 

Might I suggest that this issue goes far beyond -----. And yes, if your dog ever seriously hurt anyone, that would be a disaster.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Any news here?


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