# Dominant male



## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

My dog, Aku, is 10 months old male. He's very dominant, physically and mentally very powerful working line dog.

Now the problem is that he's very aggressive towards other young males. Older males are okay, for now. This hostile attitude happened quite fast, only some weeks ago he was playing cheerfully with his brother, but now he basically wants to kill him. I'm okay with the fact that he doesn't accept other males, that's expected, but what I don't accept is going totally nuts when around other males. He goes full retard, doesn't respond to commands anymore.

So the question is, how to stop this unaccepted behavior. So far I've just dragged him away and calmed him down without hurting him. It of course works for that situation, but he doesn't really learn anything. The breeder told me to slap him in the face or squeeze from the balls, cause him some real physical pain to stop it. He told me that if I'm not able to stop that aggression immediately now when he's only 10 months, how am I going to do it when he's 5 years? That's a very good question. So I'm now leaning towards "old school" and using real physical corrections.

I'd like to hear some opinions and experiences, please!


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

If you are physically correcting a dominant dog, you will find yourself fast in an ER. 

Here's hoping someone with more time can give you a better answer. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

> So far I've just dragged him away and calmed him down without hurting him.


That's what you should do, create enough distance that he calms down. Start doing/asking for behaviors he knows, heeling, sit, etc. Then gradually move closer. If he starts acting like "an idiot", move away again. 
Across a Threshold - Whole Dog Journal Article
This bit in particular.


> *2. Over threshold is more than behaving badly.* When a dog is over threshold it generally means that the dog is behaving in a way that we don’t like. More importantly, it means the dog is in a state of distress.
> When a dog crosses an emotional threshold, certain physiological and psychological effects begin to take place. The dog may breathe more heavily and his heart rate may increase. A dog who is over threshold is _reacting_ rather than thinking; he is in a fight, flight, freeze, or fool-around state. He may not be able to listen to you (or even hear you). In addition, when a dog is over threshold, you cannot _teach_ him to behave differently. A dog will not be able to learn until he back under threshold.



Honestly, I've never seen anything good come from the corrections being suggested. 
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


When you do train around the other dogs he was reacting to before, try to make it fun and upbeat. Engagement building exercises are good. Like this. The idea being to build a positive association to the thing that is negative to him right now.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Cschmidt88 said:


> That's what you should do, create enough distance that he calms down. Start doing/asking for behaviors he knows, heeling, sit, etc. Then gradually move closer. If he starts acting like "an idiot", move away again.
> Across a Threshold - Whole Dog Journal Article
> This bit in particular.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the problem - the dog goes over with his drive and cannot handle it anymore. Now the logic of the breeder goes like this: a slap in the face (or something similar) suddenly drops the drive and then he listens again.

I don't have any problems on the training field - when we are training, he is really focused. The problem is in more relaxed situations, like dog parks etc.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Jarkko said:


> Yes, that is the problem - the dog goes over with his drive and cannot handle it anymore. Now the logic of the breeder goes like this: a slap in the face (or something similar) suddenly drops the drive and then he listens again.
> 
> I don't have any problems on the training field - when we are training, he is really focused. The problem is in more relaxed situations, like dog parks etc.



Jarkko, the slap in the face is more likely to get you badly bitten in a redirected burst of aggression/frustration. He won't learn anything other than you're not to be trusted in times of high tension or stress. 
You're doing the right thing already, work within the dog's threashold, keep doing that. If you have a friend with a calm older dog, get them to assist in training. Use whatever distraction your dog might favour, some dogs go for food, mine goes for a squeaky toy. And honestly at 10 months, he's still very much a puppy, it might be aggression, it might have a touch of fear to it too. Just be patient and keep training.


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## rapala (Mar 10, 2013)

I feel your pain... I have an 8 month old boy who is a puppy at home but a Lion once we are outside... When it gets too over and out of control I do nudge him slowly and it does actually break his concentration on the barking and then i stand infront of him and make him sit and wait... If you see a dog on the street try to keep him by your side and you being infront of him and in control rather than him being infront and in control... Im no expert but it seems to help a bit... yes just a bit.. Im still learning


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Arlene/Archer said:


> Jarkko, the slap in the face is more likely to get you badly bitten in a redirected burst of aggression/frustration. He won't learn anything other than you're not to be trusted in times of high tension or stress.
> You're doing the right thing already, work within the dog's threashold, keep doing that. If you have a friend with a calm older dog, get them to assist in training. Use whatever distraction your dog might favour, some dogs go for food, mine goes for a squeaky toy. And honestly at 10 months, he's still very much a puppy, it might be aggression, it might have a touch of fear to it too. Just be patient and keep training.


The thing is that all this started just a few weeks ago, at the same time as he started to fully rise leg and act more "male". And this is fully expected, he was the alpha puppy in the litter, always pushing other puppies down, very dominant. I fully accept his dislike towards other males, as long as he is happy to train with me. I don't need him to play with other dogs, that's fine. But he still needs to behave when on leash!

We had a puppy meeting couple of days ago, all from the same litter. First we took a short walk to cool him down (that was very difficult). When things settled, I let him to play with the other puppies. He immediately attacked his brother, so I had to separate him. This happened three times. After that he was much calmer, but still acting like a rooster, marching around with erect tail. Other puppies were totally shocked and fearful of him. So in the end, he was playing with me and the other dogs were playing together. After that, we went on to our training, tracking and some early bite work, and everything went fine. But I decided that this sort of thing never happens again, I need to do something.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Errr. If your dog is truly dominant you are going to be in a world of hurt inflicting pain. Do you do schh? If so talk to your td. I would go more the route of suppression but I think it's hard to really know what's going on. .. is he dominant. .. reactive. ...insecure? Without seeing it is hard to know.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

GSDElsa said:


> Errr. If your dog is truly dominant you are going to be in a world of hurt inflicting pain.


What do you mean?



> Do you do schh? If so talk to your td. I would go more the route of suppression but I think it's hard to really know what's going on. .. is he dominant. .. reactive. ...insecure? Without seeing it is hard to know.


Yes, we are training schh/ipo (or more like, just starting some basics). The breeder who I'm talking about is actually helper for my dog. Very experienced helper, trained himself many many dogs. He told me basically to kick his ass, otherwise I'm going to be in trouble with him.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Jarkko said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> 
> Yes, we are training schh/ipo (or more like, just starting some basics). The breeder who I'm talking about is actually helper for my dog. Very experienced helper, trained himself many many dogs. He told me basically to kick his ass, otherwise I'm going to be in trouble with him.



Think about it for a second Jarkko, if you 'kick his ass' or hurt him what is this going to teach him? About you?
I agree with you totally about him needing to behave on leash, and you're right, he doesn't need to play with other dogs. You need to curb leash reactivity- and you can do that by getting him to focus totally on you at a certain distance from another dog, reward, praise the good behaviour and keep it fun and interesting to him. Over time you can decrease the distance until ultimately he's not even concerned with other dogs.
My own male ( also intact) went though a his own 'boss of the world' spell at around 11 months too, but we worked through it calmly and without me inflciting any kind of pain and have an incredible bond now at 17 months, one that allows him to be off lead around any number of dogs- even other posturing males- because he isn't looking to challange or fight, but rather he's interested in what I might be up to.

I think Tyler Muto has a whole range of videos up regarding dog aggressive dogs, and how to get them to refocus their energies ( he's not stricktly just a postive trainer, but he's balanced and practical).





It won't happen overnight, but constant calm training will help your dog get past this, and help you and him form an unbreakable team. Grabbing his balls or slapping his face won't.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Arlene/Archer said:


> Think about it for a second Jarkko, if you 'kick his ass' or hurt him what is this going to teach him? About you?
> I agree with you totally about him needing to behave on leash, and you're right, he doesn't need to play with other dogs. You need to curb leash reactivity- and you can do that by getting him to focus totally on you at a certain distance from another dog, reward, praise the good behaviour and keep it fun and interesting to him. Over time you can decrease the distance until ultimately he's not even concerned with other dogs.
> My own male ( also intact) went though a his own 'boss of the world' spell at around 11 months too, but we worked through it calmly and without me inflciting any kind of pain and have an incredible bond now at 17 months, one that allows him to be off lead around any number of dogs- even other posturing males- because he isn't looking to challange or fight, but rather he's interested in what I might be up to.


Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I mean that it isn't like I couldn't make it (punish him and make him stop), but with all the information I currently have, it just doesn't make any sense. It's plain wrong. But the peer pressure is sometimes very difficult to stand against...


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Jarkko said:


> Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I mean that it isn't like I couldn't make it (punish him and make him stop), but with all the information I currently have, it just doesn't make any sense. It's plain wrong. But the peer pressure is sometimes very difficult to stand against...


Oh totally, I understand. Many years ago I rescued a doberman who spent the first six months of his life sitting in a tiny yard with little or no interaction with anyone- he was a complete nightmare to handle, fearful, aggressive, terrified of everything and everyone (he'd launch into attack mode to get to another dog and hated/feared men in uniform so badly he'd pee himself, then go staight into attack).
I got the same information as you from various sources, I needed "to be cruel to be kind (?)" I should "give him a good hiding" to 'show him who is boss". My lord, if I'd done any of those things that poor dog would have shut down or attacked me. Certainly our fledgling trust would have been seriously undermined.
It wasn't that he was a bad dog, but he had missed out on so much in the early days he had no idea how to act. Fortunately, with a lot of careful training and easing him into situations over time, he became an excellent dog. Never overly friendly, always aloof with strangers, but I don't mind that. I don't need a dog to be friendly, only well behaved. 
Best of luck with your puppy!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Just by reading your post, I can tell your dogs behavior is primarily a result of you allowing him to rise to high in pack in respect to you. Send me a pm.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Arlene/Archer said:


> Oh totally, I understand. Many years ago I rescued a doberman who spent the first six months of his life sitting in a tiny yard with little or no interaction with anyone- he was a complete nightmare to handle, fearful, aggressive, terrified of everything and everyone (he'd launch into attack mode to get to another dog and hated/feared men in uniform so badly he'd pee himself, then go staight into attack).
> I got the same information as you from various sources, I needed "to be cruel to be kind (?)" I should "give him a good hiding" to 'show him who is boss". My lord, if I'd done any of those things that poor dog would have shut down or attacked me. Certainly our fledgling trust would have been seriously undermined.
> It wasn't that he was a bad dog, but he had missed out on so much in the early days he had no idea how to act. Fortunately, with a lot of careful training and easing him into situations over time, he became an excellent dog. Never overly friendly, always aloof with strangers, but I don't mind that. I don't need a dog to be friendly, only well behaved.
> Best of luck with your puppy!


:thumbup:

Peer pressure can indeed be hard, I gave to it at first and used harsh punishment with my male who was fear aggressive. It just made it worse. Sure, he'd stop sometimes but it turned him into more of a "ticking time bomb". From the harsh punishment he just learned that reacting = pain, it didn't change his emotional connection and when another dog or person got too close he'd let all that pent up fear out in fight mode. (I hope that makes sense?) 

Thankfully I got help from good folks and changed the way I approached it. I made myself more fun and tried to pair positive, fun things with whatever caused the reaction. And just today he did a demo for 16 kids, doing a search with another dog in the room. It took 2 years to get to that point, but it's worth it in the end to see them truly enjoy or tolerate what they used to hate or fear. : ) 

Sorry if I get a bit off topic there, but I hope you do well! Good luck with your boy!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Jarkko said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> 
> Yes, we are training schh/ipo (or more like, just starting some basics). The breeder who I'm talking about is actually helper for my dog. Very experienced helper, trained himself many many dogs. He told me basically to kick his ass, otherwise I'm going to be in trouble with him.


I mean that I've seen people get unfair with truly dominant dogs and it can end in you getting chewed up pretty good. 

Personally I think that giving him a tough painful stimulating correction when he's being like that isn't a good idea. I'm sure cliff gave you some good advice. I'm not opposed to tough corrections my gut is just telling me squashing his balls isn't the answer.........


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

GSDElsa said:


> I mean that I've seen people get unfair with truly dominant dogs and it can end in you getting chewed up pretty good.


Well I don't know if it's dominance or not, but I already made the decision that he's not going to play freely with other dogs anymore. He's obviously too old for that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jarkko said:


> Well I don't know if it's dominance or not, but I already made the decision that he's not going to play freely with other dogs anymore. He's obviously too old for that.


good choice!


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Just by reading your post, I can tell your dogs behavior is primarily a result of you allowing him to rise to high in pack in respect to you. Send me a pm.


This made me again a bit worried about my home training. I started with very positive way (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/220938-too-soft.html) and brought in physical corrections quite late, 4-5 months. I still think positive training is the way to very young puppies, let's say under 4 months, buy maybe I should have been more physical with the dog, I don't know.

I have a feeling that the dog trusts me and is really happy with me, but OTOH he seem not to care about my opinion when in really high drive situations, because he trusts that I don't hurt him.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yikes. I wouldn't say 4 months is late to start physical corrections.....

I think you are working with some old school folks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think you are worrying too much, you are doing good job in training, he is still a pup and has to learn to function under your leadership while in drive....it starts with solid foundation in basics and you are doing that....drop the dog social hour and continue your work with your dog and you and he will be fine.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you are worrying too much, you are doing good job in training, he is still a pup and has to learn to function under your leadership while in drive....it starts with solid foundation in basics and you are doing that....drop the dog social hour and continue your work with your dog and you and he will be fine.


That's exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks for the kind words!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

sqeeze a dogs ?? what kind of a wierdo does that? YEah sound like u are on your way to a well train dog don't expect much out of a pup. No dog parks suck.


If i started face slaps with my dog she would probably eventally just start biting my hand.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

pets4life said:


> sqeeze a dogs ?? what kind of a wierdo does that? YEah sound like u are on your way to a well train dog don't expect much out of a pup. No dog parks suck.
> 
> 
> If i started face slaps with my dog she would probably eventally just start biting my hand.


Nah, squeezing was just talk. But slapping I've seen quite a lot. Personally I think it's a risky thing to do. Might be okay, but patient leadership gets better results. Patience is very much needed with these teenagers...


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Jarkko said:


> Nah, squeezing was just talk. But slapping I've seen quite a lot. Personally I think it's a risky thing to do. Might be okay, but patient leadership gets better results. Patience is very much needed with these teenagers...


 totally.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks guys for good discussion!

Today we went again to dog park... But this time just work, no play!

Buddies are waiting:









Heeling!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

if you want to socialize you can try introducing him to a older strong mature female gsd, usually dogs like that know how to control younger males and teach them manners? But anything weaker/younger than him he will probably bully for now. Just be picky who he hangs out with. My female WL gsd does really well with younger intact dominant/bully type males.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Having never seen this dog, from the posts only, this dog sounds more insecure than dominant. He may be going through a phase where he will test what you will and will not allow as far as him "bullying" other dogs, but truly dominant dogs don't bully. If I had this dog, I would work on building confidence through training (sounds like you are), agility and tug work are great for this! Then I would work on having him ignore other dogs, starting with low distracting environments and working up the level of difficulty. Only allow him with dogs you know and trust him with and for the rest teach him neutrality.

I have a 2 year old male, very trustworthy around other dogs, never been in a fight. He is the second real dominant dog I have seen in 10 years training pet/sport handlers and dogs (The other belonged to my training mentor).

He doesn't have to show force very often, usually the dogs will give him his space naturally and he just has to walk around the room and they will follow at a distance that he has deemed acceptable - without showing ANY aggression.

Don't get me wrong, he has had to put a handful of dogs in their place, and while it looks very forceful, he has never caused damage to another dog, or "lost it" to the point where I can't call him off verbal only.

A dog that is truly dominant VERY VERY rarely has to fight for that spot, because they just "have it" and they know it. It is almost always the insecure males who exhibit more dominant traits that have the issues you are describing.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have a dominant young male that is an outright bully, , nerves of steel. Social and very stable with people, but must be King among other dogs. Confident in all situations, goes anywhere, anytime, rock solid between ears. Very biddable to me, and a dog that I will have a lot of fun competing with.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I wouldnt call him insecure just seems like a typical young male working gsd who is full of himself (towards other dogs). HEs a strong dog, stronger than most dogs his age and knows it. Nothing wrong with it, just part of who he is for now.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I have a dominant young male that is an outright bully, , nerves of steel. Social and very stable with people, but must be King among other dogs. Confident in all situations, goes anywhere, anytime, rock solid between ears. Very biddable to me, and a dog that I will have a lot of fun competing with.


Yes, I am sure they come along, which is why I made sure to say *usually* LOL


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

These days either of these types are not plentiful, I see your type sometimes on he sport field, I see the other type ( mine) more often as police dogs. Like you I have seen them both ways.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Well of course some parts of his behavior is insecurity, because he's very young and doesn't yet know how to handle his hormones. I'm sure he will turn more calm later. Also, dominance and insecurity don't rule out each other. 

What I called "dominance" (maybe this was wrong word) is this very strong drive to be ahead of other dogs. This tendency also shows up when walking in pack. He MUST be the first dog, it is impossible for him to follow any dog. When he gets first, he calms up. I haven't seen this before with other dogs of mine (this is my 4th GSD, 2nd male). I also compare him to his brothers from the same litter, and he's different, anybody can tell that.

He doesn't really bite, he just makes sure other dogs "behave", if you know what I mean. It looks really rough, as always with GSD's. But if there would be other bonehead male on the other side, I'm sure it'd turn to real fight.

Last but not least, this dog is clearly a man's dog, which is a sign of dominant dog, as far as I can tell. I don't know how to explain this, but he doesn't really care about other dogs (as long as they behave, meaning bow to him...). He wants to please people. This was clear when he was very young puppy. If some of our older dogs gave him a lecture, he was like "screw it" and went to me to continue his playing. I've also had an extremely submissive GSD who was in these situations the opposite: crawling and trying to please the older dog to the point of being ridiculous.

But in the end, I don't care that much what is this called, to me it's just bad behavior with other dogs, and I'll just stop it, it's that simple.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lol...I know this type, he will be fine ....keep up the training and everything will fall in place....the more training the more control to rely on.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Have you tried to work with toys, tugs in particular? As soon as you see that he sees a dog, you play with him and you ignore the other dog too. Dogs are clever in knowing where their owner looks at. When the dog goes away, play stops. This way you will change his emotional response to other dogs and you don't end up butting heads with your dog.
Never allow this dog to bully another dog, as it can turn that other dog dog aggressive. Has you dog been bullied when he was younger?


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Have you tried to work with toys, tugs in particular? As soon as you see that he sees a dog, you play with him and you ignore the other dog too. Dogs are clever in knowing where their owner looks at. When the dog goes away, play stops. This way you will change his emotional response to other dogs and you don't end up butting heads with your dog.
> Never allow this dog to bully another dog, as it can turn that other dog dog aggressive. Has you dog been bullied when he was younger?


Yeah, we actually base almost all the obedience work in tugs, like this (check out my armpit):










That works, because he is more interested in tugging that other dogs. But I'm a bit concerned about overusing tugging in everyday situations, I try to restrict that kind of work to training only. But of course I could use other toys, like rope balls (don't know if that's the proper word for that training toy).

He was bullied younger, but not too much if you ask me. Normal puppy stuff. There was one occasion, some two months ago or something when older male, 1,5 years old gsd was being a bit nasty to my dog. I had to kick the 1,5 old away from him. But nothing bad, no bites etc.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Jarkko said:


> Yes, that is the problem - the dog goes over with his drive and cannot handle it anymore. Now the logic of the breeder goes like this: a slap in the face (or something similar) suddenly drops the drive and then he listens again.
> 
> I don't have any problems on the training field - when we are training, he is really focused. The problem is in more relaxed situations, like dog parks etc.



This dog has no business in dog parks .... even without this male aggression, I am not a fan of dog parks. With this problem, you have a serious liability on your hands!!!

I am a firm believer in positive training, and in imprinting young dogs...but I am also a firm believer in consequences. Prong collar and strong vocal reprimands are useful....the dog must realize that you are the leader and YOU call the shots! (You decide what behavior is acceptable from him)

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think Jarrko has said he was cutting out doggie social hour, so he should be fine, IMO.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jarkko said:


> That works, because he is more interested in tugging that other dogs. But I'm a bit concerned about overusing tugging in everyday situations, I try to restrict that kind of work to training only. But of course I could use other toys, like rope balls (don't know if that's the proper word for that training toy).
> 
> When he starts to look at you for the toy when he sees a dog, you have made a break through. Then you can start rewarding intermittently and replace play with praise and skip it all together when he has been counter conditioned or else you'll be tugging for the next 12 years.
> 
> ...


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

For what it is worth, I have a 2.5 year old that can be full of himself with other large dogs and even when I need to clip his nails. He is also from some high end WL family members and has a very strong personality. I have found that exercising him to get the piss out of him and then doing those procedures or training, allows for less reactivity and opportunity to reward. As I see a positive behavior I raise the level of exposure to the trigger, going up to the line but always avoiding the crossing it.

On a side note as others have stated, I have no desire to try and train my dog to be a playmate to any other dogs, then those in our pack. I know that it's not something he wants or needs. As long as he can be neutral in the presence of other dogs then that is fine.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> When he starts to look at you for the toy when he sees a dog, you have made a break through. Then you can start rewarding intermittently and replace play with praise and skip it all together when he has been counter conditioned or else you'll be tugging for the next 12 years.


This is good advice. Yesterday I did some testing. We passed nicely couple of dogs, including young gsd male (who was having hard time... ) and everything went really good. I used a ball for eye contact and released with play after passing dogs. Basically, the same stuff as I use for normal obedience, but more relaxed, not demanding strict positions etc. This dog is very easy in this sense: when training, he is perfectly in control. But when let loose, he's a disaster


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