# How about those Breeder, Breeding threads.



## Jack's Dad

To me they are often counter productive.

Accepted breeders and practices go something like this:

Hobby Breeder.
Titles potential breeding stock themselves.
Breeding stock and lineage should be titled.
All should be health tested. Hips and elbows and other health test such as for DM.
Working line preferred.
A few litters a yea.r
This is a short general version of the more acceptable forum dog and breeder.

The problem is there are not that many breeders like this and not everyone is interested in these things anyway.

Among the general population most don't know or care what IPO is.

When they come on here the quickly learn that their dogs suck because they don't fit the criteria and worse they may have even purchased from a BYB.

Often then they disappear to not be heard from again.

There must be a better way than insisting there is only one kind of breeder and one kind of dog that is acceptable.

On another note. There is no breeder bashing allowed. So the solution to that is for someone to announce that they have PM'd someone. Which is board speak for "your breeder stinks".

Has to be a better way. This way it is not very welcoming or understanding of about 90 percent of the GSD owning population. IMO.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Yes we could tell them their pets is wonderful and everything the breed should be. Ofcourse he is awesome, happy breeding!

Its a free country, if they want to breed their pet they can. However, that does not mean that they should recieve affirmation that their weak nerved dog has great breeding potential or comes from a great breeder.

IPO is the main reason there are still working calibre GSDs available, it really doesnt matter if most people dont care. Most people are not breeding GSDs even if they own one.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.

The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.

First the breed and then IPO.

IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce. 

IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..

You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.


----------



## robk

Jacks Dad, are you involved in IPO? I think I read on one of these threads that you own a nicely bred dog, who was bred by an active working kennel. I could be wrong. Just going off my fuzzy memory. I have read too many threads.


----------



## llombardo

I have gotten that feeling on here more then once. Threads that have nothing to do with bite work all of the sudden have someone making a comment about it. I tend to ignore threads that even remotely look like it will favor one type of dog. I have no interest in IPO and yet I took Robyn for an evaluation. Why? I felt that I had to prove something and I'm still not even sure to who. She passed, whoop d do. After she passed I told them no thanks and moved on to agility. I have a Craigslist GSD and a shelter GSD and they are perfect. My focus is enjoying my dogs and to do what's right by them with diet, exercise, and veterinarian care. I'm not going to let science decide that because my dogs come from a breeder that they might or might not get ill. I also have nothing against breeders that put everything they have into producing the GSD, whether it's a show dog, therapy dog, agility dog, or police dog, etc. No one can predict what will happen no matter where they come from. It's the same with kids, we can only hope they will be healthy and we certainly aren't going to give them up if they get sick, we just don't know. They all need a home and they all deserve one. At the end of the day I know I have very stable good temperament dogs and I don't care if they would protect and I don't need them to bite a sleeve to prove it one way or the other. I go to sleep at night feeling blessed to have them in my life and I feel safe. I can only hope they know how much I love them and what I would do to keep them safe. I don't have anything against people who do the sport, but I don't think those dogs are any better then the rest and that is the feeling I get from some(not all). I just don't let it bother me anymore and I enjoy what I have and they can enjoy what they have, so everyone is happy.


----------



## robk

I don't personally think that all dogs really need to be IPO titled to be deemed breed worthy. However, the GSD is a working breed, so it should have some working experience to speak of. It could be IPO, Herding, police, SAR, what ever. Just as long as the dog is really tested. That is the important thing to me. The dog just needs to be trainable and be able to work under pressure.


----------



## Jack's Dad

robk said:


> Jacks Dad, are you involved in IPO? I think I read on one of these threads that you own a nicely bred dog, who was bred by an active working kennel. I could be wrong. Just going off my fuzzy memory. I have read too many threads.


Not involved in IPO. Yes I have two working line dogs from kennels who are actively involved. I prefer working lines. Personal preference but I believe the forum should include everyone.

Many who didn't get their dog from an "approved breeder" or it is not the "right " kind of dog are drowned out. Many have left.

If this was a working dog forum I would understand it.


----------



## onyx'girl

Jack's Dad said:


> Not involved in IPO. Yes I have two working line dogs from kennels who are actively involved. I prefer working lines. Personal preference but I believe the forum should include everyone.
> 
> Many who didn't get their dog from an "approved breeder" or it is not the "right " kind of dog are drowned out. Many have left.
> 
> If this was a working dog forum I would understand it.


Many of the experienced GSD folks or breeders no longer post here. Or if they do it isn't often. The GSD use to be a working breed, those that actively work or train aren't the ones that are drowning out others are they?


----------



## llombardo

robk said:


> I don't personally think that all dogs really need to be IPO titled to be deemed breed worthy. However, the GSD is a working breed, so it should have some working experience to speak of. It could be IPO, Herding, police, SAR, what ever. Just as long as the dog is really tested. That is the important thing to me. The dog just needs to be trainable and be able to work under pressure.


Right and working in some households is the dog watching over the house. There are lots of pet homes that aren't involved in anything and those dogs aren't bad off because it works for the family. Yes it would be great if all GSD's could be involved in something but they aren't and that doesn't make them any less of a GSD. Geez if everyone set out to make their GSD's breed worthy we would have many more in shelters and dying daily. There has to be a balance somewhere. This is a wonderful breed and I could never tell someone they don't have a quality dog because it doesn't do this or that. That dog means the world to them no matter what the dog does.


----------



## llombardo

onyx'girl said:


> Many of the experienced GSD folks or breeders no longer post here. Or if they do it isn't often. The GSD use to be a working breed, those that actively work or train aren't the ones that are drowning out others are they?


I see a lot less of the breeders that breed show lines. Yes the GSD is a working BREED but does it have to be IPO? Some people think that is the only thing out there that proves a GSD is a GSD. The division on this forum is amongst the lines, but in the end they are all the same breed.


----------



## robk

llombardo said:


> Right and working in some households is the dog watching over the house. There are lots of pet homes that aren't involved in anything and those dogs aren't bad off because it works for the family. Yes it would be great if all GSD's could be involved in something but they aren't and that doesn't make them any less of a GSD. *Geez if everyone set out to make their GSD's breed worthy we would have many more in shelters and dying daily*. There has to be a balance somewhere. This is a wonderful breed and I could never tell someone they don't have a quality dog because it doesn't do this or that. That dog means the world to them no matter what the dog does.


I really dont understand why more GSDs would be dying in shelters if breeders were more careful to make sure thier breeding stock were breed worthy before they bred them. Can you elaborate on what you mean?


----------



## onyx'girl

llombardo said:


> I see a lot less of the breeders that breed show lines. Yes the GSD is a working BREED but does it have to be IPO? Some people think that is the only thing out there that proves a GSD is a GSD. The division on this forum is amongst the lines, but in the end they are all the same breed.


I didn't say anything about IPO...
People who BREED should be held to higher standards than those owning pets. They should be proving their reason for choosing certain dogs to reproduce. 

You decided not to do IPO after an eval. An evaluation is a tiny step in the big picture of the sport. Earning titles in IPO is more about the journey for most, it isn't about titling with the end result to breed. Enjoyment in the training(or addiction to) is why most of us do sport, it has nothing to do with breeding our dogs.


----------



## ugavet2012

llombardo said:


> I have gotten that feeling on here more then once. Threads that have nothing to do with bite work all of the sudden have someone making a comment about it. I tend to ignore threads that even remotely look like it will favor one type of dog. I have no interest in IPO and yet I took Robyn for an evaluation. Why? I felt that I had to prove something and I'm still not even sure to who. She passed, whoop d do. After she passed I told them no thanks and moved on to agility. I have a Craigslist GSD and a shelter GSD and they are perfect. My focus is enjoying my dogs and to do what's right by them with diet, exercise, and veterinarian care. I'm not going to let science decide that because my dogs come from a breeder that they might or might not get ill. I also have nothing against breeders that put everything they have into producing the GSD, whether it's a show dog, therapy dog, agility dog, or police dog, etc. No one can predict what will happen no matter where they come from. It's the same with kids, we can only hope they will be healthy and we certainly aren't going to give them up if they get sick, we just don't know. They all need a home and they all deserve one. At the end of the day I know I have very stable good temperament dogs and I don't care if they would protect and I don't need them to bite a sleeve to prove it one way or the other. I go to sleep at night feeling blessed to have them in my life and I feel safe. I can only hope they know how much I love them and what I would do to keep them safe. I don't have anything against people who do the sport, but I don't think those dogs are any better then the rest and that is the feeling I get from some(not all). I just don't let it bother me anymore and I enjoy what I have and they can enjoy what they have, so everyone is happy.


Ok I have to comment on this because it's been posted multiple times now. It doesn't matter if your dog passed an EVALUATION to BEGIN thinking about training in IPO, that doesn't mean she could title. Two totally different things. Every one of my dogs would pass the eval (and 3 have) but only 1 of them has actual nerves that are worth a crap. Two would get by on drive at a club level and the other isn't really nervy but just not a sport type dog. "Passing an evaluation" is worlds apart from training and titling. 

I don't think anybody has ever put down your dog (or dogs) or said she was horrible or undesirable, it's just that she's not a dog you would build a breeding program around. Sometimes people make this about their own dogs, like people are saying they are terrible and there's no way you should love or even like them, instead of about the real issue which is GSDs in general. My dogs are not breeding material but I still love them to death and it doesn't hurt my feelings for anyone to point out their faults.


----------



## llombardo

ugavet2012 said:


> Ok I have to comment on this because it's been posted multiple times now. It doesn't matter if your dog passed an EVALUATION to BEGIN thinking about training in IPO, that doesn't mean she could title. Two totally different things. Every one of my dogs would pass the eval (and 3 have) but only 1 of them has actual nerves that are worth a crap. Two would get by on drive at a club level and the other isn't really nervy but just not a sport type dog. "Passing an evaluation" is worlds apart from training and titling.
> 
> I don't think anybody has ever put down your dog (or dogs) or said she was horrible or undesirable, it's just that she's not a dog you would build a breeding program around. Sometimes people make this about their own dogs, like people are saying they are terrible and there's no way you should love or even like them, instead of about the real issue which is GSDs in general. My dogs are not breeding material but I still love them to death and it doesn't hurt my feelings for anyone to point out their faults.


The point of my post was that I took her for the evaluation because of stuff I read on here and how important it was, etc. I didn't care about the sport nor did I have any desire to do the sport. I know it's more then the evaluation and she still has a wonderful bite and loves the sleeve, but that is not the point. And yes my dog has been put down and I was temp banned for defending her. Silly right? Now I know it was but back then I was new and I was nothing less then bullied. Now I don't care what people think, but there are lots of newer people that go through the same thing and just give up and don't come back.


----------



## lalachka

it's def a culture here that almost despises pet homes. the word 'pet' is mostly used in a demeaning way. 
the most offensive I've ever seen it used were threads like 'should I breed my dog' and people would say 'no, spay your pet' 
I felt like hitting someone


----------



## onyx'girl

to be honest, IPO is as much about the handling as it is about the dog. And the handler has to have a very thick skin to carry on. Giving up happens pretty often, those that stick with it prove their mettle. 
I guess if one can't handle a forum discussion, and leave then it is a good thing for the health of the person's mentality.


----------



## ugavet2012

llombardo said:


> The point of my post was that I took her for the evaluation because of stuff I read on here and how important it was, etc. I didn't care about the sport nor did I have any desire to do the sport. I know it's more then the evaluation and she still has a wonderful bite and loves the sleeve, but that is not the point. And yes my dog has been put down and I was temp banned for defending her. Silly right? Now I know it was but back then I was new and I was nothing less then bullied. Now I don't care what people think, but there are lots of newer people that go through the same thing and just give up and don't come back.


I actually disagree that there are lots of people on here going through this unless it's by PM. I read here a little usually every day because I'm obsessed with reading, and I don't see this happening. What I see is people getting all defensive because someone asks what makes their dog breeding worthy, which is ridiculous. That is a valid question and one the owner should be asking themselves, and good breeders I would think would want outside unbiased opinions of their dogs. That means their faults and weaknesses too. The vast majority of dogs should not be bred, period. I don't know what specifics you are talking about re: your own dog, but I would bet it was blown out of proportion because I feel like you get defensive about this stuff. Just my opinion from reading on here a lot.


----------



## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> it's def a culture here that almost despises pet homes. the word 'pet' is mostly used in a demeaning way.
> the most offensive I've ever seen it used were threads like 'should I breed my dog' and people would say 'no, spay your pet'
> I felt like hitting someone


I'm a pet home (hope to eventually do sport, but alas... I don't have the time right now), and I have never been discouraged or demeaned in any way here. 

The people asking "should I breed my dog because she's really pretty and the sweetest dog ever" really do need to be told "no, spay your pet." People get all twisted when they don't hear what they want to, but that doesn't mean they don't need to hear it. And people get combative and then the whole thing usually spirals. I am guilty of reading threads that I know will be a spectacular display of sheer stupidity. And when I say stupidity, I don't mean "I don't know squat but I want to learn", I mean "Should I do this? No?! YOU DON'T KNOW ME! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"

It's not that this forum doesn't like pet owners, it's that they don't really like owners who don't actually care about the breed or what it's supposed to be. I'm a pet home, but I believe in solid breeding. There may not be many showline breeders on this forum, but the ones that are are well respected. The breeders that are universally despised here are the ones breeding carelessly, breeding soft, watered down, oversized. And yes, breeding "pets".... in the sense of, "I don't want an active dog, I never leave my house, but I like the look of a GSD." 

The pet homes that are respected here are the ones that appreciate the breed for what it is supposed to be (a working breed, and yeah, the definition is open to interpretation), and comes willing to learn and work with their dogs.

Sorry, I just get all riled up when people cry about "pet owners are hated here"... often the people who say that (not saying you in particular, lala) posted questions, didn't like what they heard, and took something the wrong way.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.
> 
> The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.
> 
> First the breed and then IPO.
> 
> *IPO was created for the breed in order to judge potential breeding dogs impartially, follow that piece of info to the logical conclusion. 90% of dogs in IPO are not breed worthy. Similarly contemplate that nugget.*
> 
> IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce.
> 
> IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..
> 
> *Yes 99% of GSDs in Canada and the USA do not meet the minimum standard of what makes a working dog.*
> 
> You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.


No I have nothing against guide dogs, but it is not the ideal temperment or drive for the GSD.

Again here is a hint, if labs and Goldens can do and are infact the majority of dogs doing "IT" it its not a breedworthy occupation for the GSD.

Can some dogs do it? Yes
Should those dogs be touted as ideal. Emphatically NO



As to those concerned about this being a working dog forum.. Have no fear about 99% of the threads currently active should put your hearts at rest that this is very much mainly a pet forum. 
The majority of people on here and that own these dogs are not realistic about what they have or what makes a breeding dog.

That does not mean their mis information or fantasies should be affirmed.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.

Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy. 

And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..

I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from. 

I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think. 

I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge. 

When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..


----------



## LoveEcho

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> As to those concerned about this being a working dog forum.. Have no fear about 99% of the threads currently active should put your hearts at rest that this is very much mainly a pet forum.
> The majority of people on here and that own these dogs are not realistic about what they have or what makes a breeding dog.
> 
> That does not mean their mis information or fantasies should be affirmed.


Yeah, that is a good point...sport/working owners are actually in the minority on this forum... funny, that.


----------



## lalachka

echo, i agree, they need to be told not to breed their dogs but there are a million ways of doing it and saying 'spay your pet' (first of all, why spay? why is it breed or spay? it's not either or) is just so condescending
like they're using the word 'pet' to underline the unworthiness of the dog. 

just sharing my feeling about it. if this was me posting (and I wanted to breed my dog before I knew about breeding the right way) I'd curse everyone out and leave. and breed out of spite. 

almost everyone wanted to breed at some point. no one deserves to be ridiculed like this. and their dog put down like this. there are ways to say things.


----------



## Jax08

How about those working line people with standards. They are so mean.


----------



## llombardo

ugavet2012 said:


> I actually disagree that there are lots of people on here going through this unless it's by PM. I read here a little usually every day because I'm obsessed with reading, and I don't see this happening. What I see is people getting all defensive because someone asks what makes their dog breeding worthy, which is ridiculous. That is a valid question and one the owner should be asking themselves, and good breeders I would think would want outside unbiased opinions of their dogs. That means their faults and weaknesses too. The vast majority of dogs should not be bred, period. I don't know what specifics you are talking about re: your own dog, but I would bet it was blown out of proportion because I feel like you get defensive about this stuff. Just my opinion from reading on here a lot.


I only get defensive about it if I think about it or something along the same lines is brought up. The sad part is it involved not only my GSD but also my golden. If it happened now I wouldn't care. My thing is IPO is not the only thing a GSD can do and do well. It is offensive(that is a strong word but along those lines) to the breed to think that is the only sport they can do to be considered a GSD. There is so much more out there for them and they love doing it all. Yeah maybe some aren't as good at it as others or don't have the drive but those dogs can do well in other venues. GSD's are about versatility and the more they can do the better. I'm all for that. Now I got some toad hunting to do before the dogs decide to


----------



## SuperG

I didn't read all the responses to the original assertion.... but I do know this....if it weren't for breeders I would not have had the 3 GSDs I have been graced with over my life. Yes, some punched out way too early...6 and 8 years old....but what great years they were, regardless of the heartache. Suppose I could blame the breeders but I more blame myself for my lack of due diligence.

SuperG


----------



## lalachka

LoveEcho said:


> Yeah, that is a good point...sport/working owners are actually in the minority on this forum... funny, that.


but they order the music, so to say. it's interesting this is even being denied. it's really obvious once you read the forums.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> echo, i agree, they need to be told not to breed their dogs but there are a million ways of doing it and saying 'spay your pet' (first of all, why spay? why is it breed or spay? it's not either or) is just so condescending
> like they're using the word 'pet' to underline the unworthiness of the dog.
> 
> just sharing my feeling about it. if this was me posting (and I wanted to breed my dog before I knew about breeding the right way) I'd curse everyone out and leave. and breed out of spite.
> 
> almost everyone wanted to breed at some point. no one deserves to be ridiculed like this. and their dog put down like this. there are ways to say things.


I personally would never want to breed, I will leave that to the professionals. I do agree that some questions asked are from people that might not know what actually goes into breeding. I see some of the titles of threads and think hasn't this been asked and answered about 100 times


----------



## onyx'girl

LoveEcho,
:thumbup:
love your post!


----------



## Jack's Dad

LoveEcho said:


> Yeah, that is a good point...sport/working owners are actually in the minority on this forum... funny, that.


 In sheer numbers yes. In control no.

There is a small number of some breeders, moderators and old timers who determine who are reputable breeders or not. What the standards (Jax) should be and a there are anumber of people who been drinking the cool aid. Oh yeah, can't forget the sport crowd.

I'm not paranoid, I don't think it's a plot. It is just a group of people who think the same way and control some of these topics.

Debates are good as long as folks are semi civil and listen to each other.


----------



## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> but they order the music, so to say. it's interesting this is even being denied. it's really obvious once you read the forums.


It's not, though, unless that's what you're looking to find. Like I said... I'm a pet home and I have never experienced any sort of negativity. I've posted some pretty stupid training questions, too.

What people mistake for "running the show" is actually that the people who work their dogs EVERY DAY, most of them ALL DAY, who actively train and compete either as a lifestyle or professionally (it's rarely a hobby)... they're the ones with the most knowledge. They know the most about training, they know the most about conformation and breeding... because it's ALL THEY DO. 

The health forums, the most knowledgable people and dominant posters are pet owners, or breeders (because, again, it's all they do). 

It's really not a political conspiracy.... it's just a sheer fact that in general, sport and working owners are going to have more of the nitty gritty knowledge of training issues, breed standards, etc. They're also more likely to be more passionate about the breed and preserving it.

If you look at most of the day-to-day, "help with this behavior" thread, it's pet owners who respond. When someone posts asking for help with a specific training issue, it's usually people who actively compete and train.

As a parallel, I'm a member of an Off-Track Thoroughbred (OTTB) forum. There are more casual "pet" owners there than serious competitors, but of course the people who train and compete professionally or very seriously are going to have the most influence- they have the most knowledge, overall. Sure, there are idiots who run their mouths about stuff they don't know anything about, on all sides... but really, it's the same thing here. Overall, the sport and working people have more knowledge (not counting the idiots who run their mouths).


----------



## lalachka

I never said it was a conspiracy. it's just how things are. what they say carries much more weight. 

I'm not looking to find anything. I read a forum and I'm telling you what I see. this isn't about something said towards me, this is a theme through thread after thread. 

however, it's a good point that they have the most knowledge so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. but for one reason or another they run the show. and for one reason or another, unless you do sport you aren't cool (again, don't twist this as me saying something I'm not. this isn't about me. I don't want to be cool, I go my own way. this is about how people are treated here in general)


----------



## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> I never said it was a conspiracy. it's just how things are. what they say carries much more weight.
> 
> I'm not looking to find anything. I read a forum and I'm telling you what I see. this isn't about something said towards me, this is a theme through thread after thread.
> 
> however, it's a good point that they have the most knowledge so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. but for one reason or another they run the show. and for one reason or another, unless you do sport you aren't cool (again, don't twist this as me saying something I'm not. this isn't about me. I don't want to be cool, I go my own way. this is about how people are treated here in general)


:shrug: Guess I must be missing something... it's actually the sport people who have been kindest and most helpful to me in my silly little pet owner problems. I know I'm not alone, either. I think the pet owners are in the majority... and pet owners who have never felt slighted here are the majority of those... 

I've found that the most brutal political BS, mockery, eyerolling... is within the sport people, between the sport people. But that's the nature of the game and happens with anything and everything that involves this much blood, sweat, tears, and money.


----------



## lalachka

they have been helpful to me too. along with others. I'm thankful for all advice I received here, this forum helped the most in my training and that's why I'm still here. along with the entertainment 

this isn't about me though. this is reading almost every thread here and some things I see. 

and i was bullied somewhat by them as well. I'd name a few but the rules, you know 
that wouldn't bother me, I can stand up for myself but this is where the power and influence comes in. I can only say so much before I'm told to shut up but their comments remain. not a level playing field. 
oh well, life isn't fair


----------



## LoveEcho

Jack's Dad said:


> There is a small number of some breeders, moderators and old timers who determine who are reputable breeders or not. What the standards (Jax) should be and a there are anumber of people who been drinking the cool aid. Oh yeah, can't forget the sport crowd.
> 
> I'm not paranoid, I don't think it's a plot. It is just a group of people who think the same way and control some of these topics.
> 
> Debates are good as long as folks are semi civil and listen to each other.



What, people who say that breeding soft, oversized, watered down is bad? I read all of the breeder threads, and the breeders that are always bashed are those breeders. 

That's not a group of people on the forum determining that those things are bad... people here and their attitudes are a reflection of the current culture of the breed. The people who compete regularly have a much better finger on the pulse of that. The people who have their dogs judged regularly, etc. The people who invest so much time and energy into this breed are always going to be it's staunchest defenders against an onslaught of crappy breeders breeding "pets" (and I use the quotation marks, because "pets" are what people here don't like.... PETS are what everyone here has). 

You're not going to get much of a positive response when you come onto a forum dedicated to a specific breed (with a pretty specific set of standards.... yeah, there's some room for interpretation, but there's really a core idea of what the breed is supposed to be), and tout people who take shortcuts, who produce dogs that take us farther and farther away from what we all supposedly fell in love with in the first place.

On the TB forums, BYB's are universally hated. People talking about breeding for color, that sort of thing... it's not well received. It's pretty universal. 

Yeah, there's political stuff on this forum ("not a level playing field") but it has a lot less to do with what you do with your dogs and a lot more to do with your attitude (again... not "YOU"....)... and old-time grudges do carry over, but those had nothing to do with who is a pet owner vs sport, etc.


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> What the standards (Jax) should be and a there are anumber of people who been drinking the cool aid. Oh yeah, can't forget the sport crowd.


I'm really not much of a drinker. Especially that purple crap. Tastes amazingly like the colonoscopy laxative. You are welcome to have my share.

What I find counter productive are threads on how counter productive all the sport people are. You don't like us. You don't like how we think. That's fine. Go about your business. I don't think there is any reason to start threads on how horrid we that drink cool-aid are. 

When people post a question on here and need help, where are you? I don't see your name popping up. I know this because I just wondered where you were a couple days ago. If you want different advice posted, then by all means post it.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jax08 said:


> I'm really not much of a drinker. Especially that purple crap. Tastes amazingly like the colonoscopy laxative. You are welcome to have my share.
> 
> What I find counter productive are threads on how counter productive all the sport people are. You don't like us. You don't like how we think. That's fine. Go about your business. I don't think there is any reason to start threads on how horrid we that drink cool-aid are.
> 
> When people post a question on here and need help, where are you? I don't see your name popping up. I know this because I just wondered where you were a couple days ago. If you want different advice posted, then by all means post it.


:thumbup:

Darn those people who came up with the breed standard! What jerks! Who do they think they are? And what about those jerks who think that it's important to stick to those to maintain the breed we ALL love? Gosh! Why are standards important? People breed themselves without standards, and look at us!


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> I'm really not much of a drinker. Especially that purple crap. Tastes amazingly like the colonoscopy laxative. You are welcome to have my share.
> 
> What I find counter productive are threads on how counter productive all the sport people are. You don't like us. You don't like how we think. That's fine. Go about your business. I don't think there is any reason to start threads on how horrid we that drink cool-aid are.
> 
> When people post a question on here and need help, where are you? I don't see your name popping up. I know this because I just wondered where you were a couple days ago. If you want different advice posted, then by all means post it.


Nice.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jack's Dad said:


> Nice.


Ah, but didn't you just call her a cool-aid (kool aid?) drinker?

Talk about double standards


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No I have nothing against guide dogs, but it is not the ideal temperment or drive for the GSD.


You're wrong. The GSD is not to supposed to serve just one purpose, it's supposed to be versatile.


----------



## Jax08

The more I think on that comment the angrier I get. So a person believes there should be standards. Why is that a bad thing? "drink the cool-aid" like we're being led around by our nose. There IS a standard. We didn't write it. The founder of the breed wrote it. We aren't just making stuff up as we go along.

Do I believe that IPO is the only way to test a dog for breed worthiness? No. There are k9s, SAR, Guide. Do I believe that only sport or working people should own a GSD? NO. This dog is supposed to be able to settle in the house and be a family dog and still maintain the ability to work.

I have NEVER insulted anyone's dog or said they were less. I have plainly stated I have dogs that are not breed worthy and the reasons why. I find the whole premise of this thread offensive.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Andy threads always get interesting.


----------



## LoveEcho

It's just fundamental common sense that you're not going to get a lot of support for breeding outside the standards (or without testing of any kind, be it health or temperament) on a forum dedicated to a specific breed with a specific set of standards. And those "sport people" who have all the "power" here are going to be particularly passionate about it because it's what they work with and what they work to preserve every day. 

Like I said- this sentiment is echoed on every forum about every breed. There's really not a lot of wiggle room for discussion on what makes a good breeder anywhere. You should see horse people get going, if you think it's bad here.


To echo Jax's sentiment, my cruddy BYB dog (I'm being tongue-in-cheek here) has been just as kindly received as my well-bred, sport-pedigree dog.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> How about those working line people with standards. They are so mean.


This is the quote I was referring to. I did not mean to imply you specifically were drinking the cool aid. If you don't like the thread don't post.

I don't ask for permission or advice before I start a thread.

Love Echo, Jax can take care of herself as you have just seen.
Love Echo many of my threads are on the breed standard and what a GSD should be. The fact that many aren't is a huge concern to me.


----------



## llombardo

LoveEcho said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Darn those people who came up with the breed standard! What jerks! Who do they think they are? And what about those jerks who think that it's important to stick to those to maintain the breed we ALL love? Gosh! Why are standards important? People breed themselves without standards, and look at us!


Well someone once posted _The standard or its interpretation allows for the fallacy we see in the breed today._. Thoughts on that?


----------



## Moriah

JakodaCD OA said:


> My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.
> 
> Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy.
> 
> And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..
> 
> I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from.
> 
> I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think.
> 
> *I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge.*
> 
> When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..



In general, the breeders' posts have educated me the most about GSDs specifically. I am grateful they take the time to type enough to really explain things.

I feel bad when new people are ambushed and then don't come back. I don't know the answer to that because I think posters should tell the "truth." 

I think there is a lot of bashing of ASL versus WGSL versus working lines. Human nature to think theirs is best? I have enjoyed the posts about working lines and LE, SAR, detonation, etc., and have learned a lot. My dog is a WGSL.

I guess I am most grateful for the help everyone gives to help me understand more about this amazing breed of dog. They also help me to be a good dog owner.

I think there are wonderfully supportive people here. When dogs get sick or pass, posters really have a big heart.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lucy Dog said:


> Andy threads always get interesting.


Specifically designed to pull people like you out of the woodwork.


----------



## DaniFani

I'm confused Jack's Dad. You've said on multiple threads that the only ones that should voice an opinion about breeding are the breeders, yet now anyone that follows what the breeders and "experienced" are saying are "drinking the koolaid." SO, who should we followers follow? Who should we support? 

I think it's crappy to demean a person's stance by saying they are "drinking the koolaid." Why can't someone agree with people that are in the thick of the breed, testing it, breeding it, washing it, etc...It's like anyone that wants to hold things to a standard is "mean." I hate that taking a stance on a subject is "drinking the koolaid" and that disagreeing and stating why is "bashing" and "chasing people off." It's ridiculous.

Also, I get that you want to appease to everyone's "feelings" and not chase people off. However, I am of the opinion that some people have no ability to take anything other than defensively and personally.

I agree with pretty much everything LoveEcho pointed out, are you going to address any of her points and stances, Jack's Dad? She's made a lot of good statements, about experience, knowledge, how it's gained....the standard...why some seem to take things so personally. You just keep answering those that are placating to the emotion of this thread, instead of answering your questions and concerns.

Edit: Removed my last paragraph.


----------



## CassandGunnar

I agree that there HAS to be standards, and that's the best way to maintain the integrity of the breed. However, you can take two of the best dogs in the world, get them all the titles (herding, IPO, tracking, SAR, whatever) and then breed them to each other. They have 7 puppies. How many of the pups are going to be able to do everything that the sire and dam did?
It's a crapshoot and always has been. It's the old nature vs nurture argument.
Conversely, back the "old days", we got police K9's from the shelter. I had two of them that I worked. An old time trainer told me "sure, I can train a shelter dog to do K9 work, it's just a matter of how many times the handler gets bit during that training".
In the end, performance matters.
In my humble opinion, and to quote Judge Smails from Caddyshack, "The world needs ditch diggers too."
Not everyone wants (or can handle) a WL dog. I've also done enough work in GSD rescue to know what happens when they try.
I've heard breeders use that argument to explain higher fees for the best working prospects.


----------



## Jax08

I agree, Randy. Just because the parents are great, doesn't mean the offspring will be. But some of those puppies will work, maybe all to some degree, and some are more suitable for pets. Everybody can't be a superstar.

BUT, I also think this is where good breeders come in. They will know what a dog is throwing. They can guestimate what the litter should produce. It's not fool proof. But what I see with inexperienced people that just want to experience the joys of birth or want Fifi's daughter to raise is they throw dogs together that have issues and create more dogs with issues. That's where I have problems. Because, as an experienced foster, how many times have you seen just a genetic hot mess full of anxiety?


----------



## LoveEcho

llombardo said:


> Well someone once posted _The standard or its interpretation allows for the fallacy we see in the breed today._. Thoughts on that?


I think it's Cliff that posted that? Seems like a Cliff thing. Always a good discussion starter. It is true- be it angulation or whatever "extreme" we see. I don't think it has anything to do with blatantly breeding ultra low-drive, oversized, whatever dogs... dogs who are so far outside the standard that it can't even begin to be an interpretation of the standard...

I think most of the fallacy we see in the breed today is because of Joe Shmoe breeding their "pet" because they're uber protective and really big! The number of badly bred BYB dogs probably outnumbers the carefully bred dogs... just in my own observations, what I see daily. GSD's are really common here, and only a fraction of them are fine (or even marginal) examples of the breed. I think that's a much more prominent (and I mean this in terms of scale and numbers, not severity) issue than breeding for too much angulation, breeding dogs who were pushed to an IPO3 at club level but have crap temperament, etc. 

In terms of the "a few people dictate what breeders are acceptable", I LOVE opening the "is this a good breeder?" threads. I open every one of them. The ONLY ones who are universally negatively received are the ones who are breeding dogs so far outside the standard it's not an "interpretation." In fact, there's a number of threads where the general stream of thought is, "well, they do at least health test their dogs, so if you're really interested, go ahead and meet the breeder, the parents, etc." Sure, there's political stuff about breeders in the sport realm, but I've seen some pretty even-keel suggestions when people ask for ASL breeders, WGSL breeders, etc. There's even been, *gasp* good debate on if the standards are relevant, etc. There's a lot of nuances in sport and working dog worlds where they get really in depth into temperament and drives and pedigrees and whether so-and-so produces dogs who are all prey and no defense etc etc. I can't really say I've seen that translate towards "pet" people though. I've even seen a lot of the reputable working and sport people on here say that when a pet owner is looking for a dog, titles aren't necessarily the be-all-end-all.

As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)


----------



## CassandGunnar

Easy too many. I just lost one like that.


----------



## Jax08

CassandGunnar said:


> Easy too many. I just lost one like that.


Oh Randy. I'm sorry. That was completely thoughtless of me. 

I was thinking of our Boxer Sierra when I said that. Neurotic mess from bad breeding.


----------



## LoveEcho

Moriah said:


> In general, the breeders' posts have educated me the most about GSDs specifically. I am grateful they take the time to type enough to really explain things.
> 
> I feel bad when new people are ambushed and then don't come back. I don't know the answer to that because I think posters should tell the "truth."
> 
> I think there is a lot of bashing of ASL versus WGSL versus working lines. Human nature to think theirs is best? I have enjoyed the posts about working lines and LE, SAR, detonation, etc., and have learned a lot. My dog is a WGSL.
> 
> I guess I am most grateful for the help everyone gives to help me understand more about this amazing breed of dog. They also help me to be a good dog owner.
> 
> I think there are wonderfully supportive people here. When dogs get sick or pass, posters really have a big heart.


I agree. I've gotten so much support here, and help with all kinds of medical and training and temperament issues. 

I do think the people that get ambushed and don't come back are the ones who only wanted validation. There are several people who posted, were ambushed, realized that they just have a lot to learn (and most of us do), and stuck around and learned. I love when that happens.... I'm glad I did.


----------



## selzer

I think that most breeders are incredibly busy, and this forum has lost a lot of steam. Lots of people have gone to Facebook. And people are out with their dogs, their work, and their lives. 

There are cliques here, and group think. People do know right away what things are accepted and sympathized with, and what things are going to get the slam dunk. I think a post from certain people can change the tide and tone of a thread. And when someone posts what have been posted umpteen times before, many of the newer converts to what makes an acceptable breeder around here are going to lead the charge against such a one. What they fail to realize, is that this is the umpteenth post on the subject that forum members have read, but for the poster it is the first. They haven't usually been around long enough to realize that what they said has just planted them amongst the doomed heathens. 

So they get huffy and defend themselves and get are real trouncing or they think people here are totally batty and leave, in both cases they do exactly what they wanted to do. I really don't think it helps much or gets people to go an extra couple of feet when breeding, much less the whole nine yards. 

And then there is the usual stuff: I got this great puppy, it's a &$##@$ puppy, and I intend to breed it, what do I need to do? or My girl is going to be 2 in the spring and where do I go to find a good stud dog. But then you have the stuff like, should I breed my bitch to her sire? I mean, there is something in the idea that if you are ready, you aren't going to be asking here, but to put together very close in-breeding, you have to be a little better than ready, you have to know everything about your lines and have a plan and a purpose, you have to know a little more than how to spell the name of the breed, and you aren't going to be asking advice on a forum made up of mostly pet owners whether they do IPO or not.

I think you have people who like the various working lines, and people who like the various show lines. Maybe that is somewhat regional. Maybe in some areas the show lines are nervier, and in some areas, the working lines are crazier. But if people do prefer one line to another, it will get their dander up to hear the entire line criticized. I mean, to hear that the nervy dogs are coming only from dogs that are not from IPO lines, is a way to say, "our dogs are better than your dogs." The thing is, ALL the lines have examples of behavior unbecoming to a GSD.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jax08 said:


> Oh Randy. I'm sorry. That was completely thoughtless of me.
> 
> I was thinking of our Boxer Sierra when I said that. Neurotic mess from bad breeding.


Or Echo, with his crippling anxiety, because a really well intentioned guy who loved his dogs very much thought that they were really pretty and sweet and wanted replicas of them. 

Most of the people who get really riled up about crappy breeding are the ones who have horror stories. That does NOT have anything to do with "breeder vs rescue" or "do good breeders ever produce bad dogs" and that sort of thing... just that breeding should be done with care.


----------



## Jack's Dad

*


DaniFani said:



I'm confused Jack's Dad. You've said on multiple threads that the only ones that should voice an opinion about breeding are the breeders, yet now anyone that follows what the breeders and "experienced" are saying are "drinking the koolaid." SO, who should we followers follow? Who should we support?

Click to expand...

*


DaniFani said:


> I think it's crappy to demean a person's stance by saying they are "drinking the koolaid." Why can't someone agree with people that are in the thick of the breed, testing it, breeding it, washing it, etc...It's like anyone that wants to hold things to a standard is "mean." I hate that taking a stance on a subject is "drinking the koolaid" and that disagreeing and stating why is "bashing" and "chasing people off." It's ridiculous.
> 
> Listen to who you want but as you know there is a wide world outside this forum of very knowledgeable GSD folks. I think your pup came through some of them.
> Also, I get that you want to appease to everyone's "feelings" and not chase people off. However, I am of the opinion that some people have no ability to take anything other than defensively and personally.
> 
> I agree with pretty much everything LoveEcho pointed out, are you going to address any of her points and stances, Jack's Dad? She's made a lot of good statements, about experience, knowledge, how it's gained....the standard...why some seem to take things so personally. You just keep answering those that are placating to the emotion of this thread, instead of answering your questions and concerns.
> 
> Edit: Removed my last paragraph.


To the bolded. People can listen to whomever they want but remember there is a wide world of very knowledgeable GSD folks out there. I think you got your puppy through some of them.
.
No I'm not going to respond to everything Love Echo posted. I agree with a lot of it and have said so in the past.


----------



## robk

I just don't understand how people who do not do IPO are the ones who criticize it. IPO is so complex and nuanced. To bring a dog all the way from a pup to a titled dog takes a good dog and some pretty complex training an problem solving by his handler. However, the title its self is not what is important. What is important is what you learn about your dog along the way. The way your dog thinks, they way he solves problems, they way he maintains focus under stress and distraction. How easily he can switch drives and think clear. How fast he can grasp a new concept and connect the dots. How he easily he can chain complex behavior to delayed reward. Does he have the fundamental aggression level required by the breed to combat an advisory yet be clear headed enough to be able to hear, trust and respond to a handler who is communicating from a distance. These are things you cannot learn about your dog by just teaching it to walk around the neighborhood and pull on the leash or by watching it bark at the window at people who walk down the street. You also cannot learn these things by taking your dog to a schutzhund evaluation. You have to dig into the sport and actually take your dog through the paces. You have to get up early in the morning and track your dog when it feels so good to sleep in a little longer. You have to be willing to accept the fact that your dog may be weak in areas and you might learn some stuff about your dog that you did not know. Worse, you might find out some things in front of a crowd of on lookers. IPO can be stressful. I can understand why not everyone wants to do it. I just don't know how anyone who does not do it can think they have a clue what it is all about. My own dog is 3 years old and I am still trying to figure out how to overcome some weakness in him. Weakness that I would be oblivious too if I did not get up and take some risk and put in some effort. 

My point is that IPO will allow a breeder who is honest with what they have learned about their dogs through the training process make much more informed breeding decisions. Decision that will benefit future pup owners whether they be working, sport or pet homes.


----------



## robk

And no, IPO is not the only way to learn all these things about your dog. It is just one of the ways you can. It was designed to give you a framework from which to test your dog. The important thing to me is that the dog is really tested before it is bred.


----------



## onyx'girl

LoveEcho said:


> Or Echo, with his crippling anxiety, because a really well intentioned guy who loved his dogs very much thought that they were really pretty and sweet and wanted replicas of them.
> 
> Most of the people who get really riled up about crappy breeding are the ones who have horror stories. That does NOT have anything to do with "breeder vs rescue" or "do good breeders ever produce bad dogs" and that sort of thing... just that breeding should be done with care.


absolutely.....those that have dealt with the challenging poorly bred dog don't wish that situation on anyone. When you know better, you try to do better


----------



## SuperG

*" And when someone posts what have been posted umpteen times before, many of the newer converts to what makes an acceptable breeder around here are going to lead the charge against such a one. What they fail to realize, is that this is the umpteenth post on the subject that forum members have read, but for the poster it is the first. They haven't usually been around long enough to realize that what they said has just planted them amongst the doomed heathens. "*


The only people exempt from this stigma are those who joined this forum first.....everything after that is "old hat" in those folk's eyes.

Somebody who is a first time GSD owner and uptight about the growth rate of their pup or the typical queries...nipping etc. still have a real life situation which is brand new to them and of a certain magnitude.

I might suggest it is somewhat a rite of passage and be embraced respectfully. We all were in a similar boat at a point in our lives.

Did I just repeat what you said?


SuperG


----------



## Jax08

LoveEcho said:


> Or Echo, with his crippling anxiety, because a really well intentioned guy who loved his dogs very much thought that they were really pretty and sweet and wanted replicas of them.
> 
> Most of the people who get really riled up about crappy breeding are the ones who have horror stories. That does NOT have anything to do with "breeder vs rescue" or "do good breeders ever produce bad dogs" and that sort of thing... just that breeding should be done with care.


Exactly! I can't express how wonderful it was to take Seger to an AKC event and not have to manage him and block him for other dogs the whole time. Or, as much as we miss Banshee, how great it is to just be able to wave a person thru our door instead of containing her first so she didn't bite anyone.

Once you've had one or more hot messes, it give you a whole new appreciation for a stable dog.

People that come on here asking about breeding most often don't want advice. They want validation. The only thing they want to hear is how awesome and where do we sign up to get a puppy. 

When people are of that mindset then nothing you say, no matter how nicely, is going to be accepted. So how do you phrase it differently when they are going to be mad anyways?


----------



## LoveEcho

Jack's Dad said:


> *
> 
> To the bolded. People can listen to whomever they want but remember there is a wide world of very knowledgeable GSD folks out there. I think you got your puppy through some of them.
> .
> No I'm not going to respond to everything Love Echo posted. I agree with a lot of it and have said so in the past.*


*

I think maybe I'm just confused on what you were trying to say with your original post (seriously, not being sarcastic).

You were asking about why "other kinds of breeders" and "other kinds of dogs" aren't viewed as acceptable here. I've been answering those points from my experience here... but yet you're saying you agree with most of it? 

I've actually PM'd positive stuff to people. Either personal experiences that I wanted kept private, or if I didn't want to be too "fan girl"-ish 

In terms of whether or not it serves 90% of the population... from my own experience, I came here with absolutely zero knowledge and a dog who was a mess. I didn't know about the search function and I asked stupid questions. All the debate about what makes a reputable breeder, why breeding your pet isn't wise, pedigree stuff.... I've learned so much. I'm even more passionate about the breed now, and I feel like I've had so many "ah hah!" moments. I think watering it down to serve people who aren't as invested in the breed really does a disservice to those people. I was definitely one of those people who would have thought, "I should breed my dog! He's perfect!" All the threads on why it's bad are really helpful. And, the vast majority of people who respond to those threads do so tactfully. 

Maybe we would all be better served if you just clarified your point... because what I'm reading from your OP is that you think that there should be a greater acceptance of "pet breeding" here (the actual practice, not the dogs produced from it).*


----------



## onyx'girl

robk said:


> And no, IPO is not the only way to learn all these things about your dog. It is just one of the ways you can. It was designed to give you a framework from which to test your dog. The important thing to me is that the dog is really tested before it is bred.


:thumbup: totally agree with your posts


----------



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

I think as long as you are happy with your companion/teammate, that is what matters. There should always be a standard for something. I have an uncle who lives in the sticks so to speak. He has an aussie that he has bred once or twice in the 10 years hes had her. She isn't registered or show quality animal. But he loves her temperment and ability to work even though she hasn't been titled. He has kept a few of the pups to take her place. He personally thinks that dog registries are pretty much just another way for an organization to profit. I don't think that's entirely true. I think registries and such can be good tools, but agree it should not be the only tool when making a decision. That being said, I do take my hat off to those that truly love the breed. Personally, I think things are more complicated since from my reading, the breed is fairly new compared to others. Much easier to make a case on breeds that have been documented for years like an Akita or Chow.


----------



## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> So how do you phrase it differently when they are going to be mad anyways?



Ummmmm.... I told you so ??


SuperG


----------



## lalachka

LoveEcho said:


> As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)


there's honesty and there's condescension and rudeness. I actually agree about breeding practices and will support a breeder that titles only because I want to support those that put thought and effort into their program. and also because I want to experience a 'real' gsd in case they're diff from what I have. 

I just think that there are ways to say things. actually, if you're (not you personally) honest with yourself and put yourself in the place of the people that post those threads you'd be just as defensive and hurt. and wouldn't hear anything except 'they're dissing my dog'


----------



## LoveEcho

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I think as long as you are happy with your companion/teammate, that is what matters. There should always be a standard for something. I have an uncle who lives in the sticks so to speak. He has an aussie that he has bred once or twice in the 10 years hes had her. She isn't registered or show quality animal. But he loves her temperment and ability to work even though she hasn't been titled. He personally thinks that dog registries are pretty much just another way for an organization to profit. I don't think that's entirely true. I think registries and such can be good tools, but agree it should not be the only tool when making a decision. That being said, I do take my hat off to those that truly love the breed. Personally, I think things are more complicated since from my reading, the breed is fairly new compared to others. Much easier to make a case on breeds that have been documented for years like an Akita or Chow.


Agreed! There have actually been a lot of discussions on working dogs bred with no titles (i.e. dogs who are worked but do not compete in IPO), and whether they should be bred, etc. Almost always the consensus on those threads are that the breeder needs to know everything about the dog and their temperament, and that people who seriously work their dogs in those sorts of venues and know their working ability and temperament aren't "bad" at all, if they're still breeding with careful consideration to bloodlines, health, etc. 

I don't think I've ever seen one person's dog be spoken of negatively here. Actually, I have, but it was sport people bashing other sport people. Saying your dog should not be bred to a pet owner who doesn't work their dog, has no idea what health testing is, etc, is not bashing someone's dog, it's not being negative abut them. It's just a fact.


----------



## Jax08

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I think as long as you are happy with your companion/teammate, that is what matters. There should always be a standard for something. I have an uncle who lives in the sticks so to speak. He has an aussie that he has bred once or twice in the 10 years hes had her. She isn't registered or show quality animal.* But he loves her temperment and ability to work *even though she hasn't been titled. He has kept a few of the pups to take her place. He personally thinks that dog registries are pretty much just another way for an organization to profit..


There are many dogs without official pedigrees. Dogs in the armed forces do not have papers with them. But they have the ability to work. Cattle dogs are often bred for work and have no papers.

I have no issue with that. The dogs are STILL good dogs. But they are being bred to a 'standard'. It may not be a written standard but it's still a standard that involves temperament and working ability. 

I have an issue with people that throw two pedigreed dogs together that have crippling diseases and bad nerves to make a buck.


----------



## LoveEcho

lalachka said:


> there's honesty and there's condescension and rudeness. I actually agree about breeding practices and will support a breeder that titles only because I want to support those that put thought and effort into their program. and also because I want to experience a 'real' gsd in case they're diff from what I have.
> 
> I just think that there are ways to say things. actually, if you're (not you personally) honest with yourself and put yourself in the place of the people that post those threads you'd be just as defensive and hurt. and wouldn't hear anything except 'they're dissing my dog'


I get that. I've posted some pretty dumb stuff and gotten the associated "well that's dumb" answers. But- it is the internet. People a) lose stuff in translation, etc... and b) read too far into responses for others. I'm guilty on both, I know that. And c) people gotta have a tougher skin on a forum. Things shouldn't be sugar-coated because someone is a beginner... and the things that are taken as "OMG SO RUDE!" really weren't at all.


----------



## RocketDog

There are some good points and interesting responses on this thread. I think there is a division between pet people and sport people although I don't think it's that big of a deal. 

The biggest division on here I see is working line versus Show line. You rarely ever see Show lines discussed in any seriousness. In fact the recent thread titled "unicorn sighting" was a perfect example of how show lines are never taken seriously. 

Granted I get that there are a lot of SLs that washout. But there's a lot of working lines that probably do too. I suspect that most of the working like people that have those dogs don't compete in IPO just like anything else. Or they are more easily trained to hide the weaknesses. In my opinion, I would prefer ability over looks. How a dog looks is clearly not as important as working or ability/temperament in general. But there are definitely WL breeders that sacrifice a lot of confirmation. I've seen them. Neither one is good. 

But in general this board is biased towards working lines. That may be neither here nor there but it's true.


----------



## Jax08

Definitely biased towards working lines. Which is sad. I've met some nice show lines.


----------



## robk

Jax08 said:


> There are many dogs without official pedigrees. Dogs in the armed forces do not have papers with them. But they have the ability to work. Cattle dogs are often bred for work and have no papers.
> 
> I have no issue with that. The dogs are STILL good dogs. But they are being bred to a 'standard'. It may not be a written standard but it's still a standard that involves temperament and working ability.
> 
> I have an issue with people that throw two pedigreed dogs together that have crippling diseases and bad nerves to make a buck.


I agree with this. The pedigree is useful as a tool to make informed decisions. Don't really care about the registries. Papers by them selves to not make a good dog. People who think that just because their dogs are AKC registered they should breed it are hurting the breed. If some farmer has sheep dogs or cattle dogs or what ever and is very knowledgable about his dogs and has been breeding them for generations and they have never been registered, but he has been able to maintain and improve his stocks working ability, thats great. I have no problem with that.


----------



## llombardo

LoveEcho said:


> I think it's Cliff that posted that? Seems like a Cliff thing. Always a good discussion starter. It is true- be it angulation or whatever "extreme" we see. I don't think it has anything to do with blatantly breeding ultra low-drive, oversized, whatever dogs... dogs who are so far outside the standard that it can't even begin to be an interpretation of the standard...
> 
> I think most of the fallacy we see in the breed today is because of Joe Shmoe breeding their "pet" because they're uber protective and really big! The number of badly bred BYB dogs probably outnumbers the carefully bred dogs... just in my own observations, what I see daily. GSD's are really common here, and only a fraction of them are fine (or even marginal) examples of the breed. I think that's a much more prominent (and I mean this in terms of scale and numbers, not severity) issue than breeding for too much angulation, breeding dogs who were pushed to an IPO3 at club level but have crap temperament, etc.
> 
> In terms of the "a few people dictate what breeders are acceptable", I LOVE opening the "is this a good breeder?" threads. I open every one of them. The ONLY ones who are universally negatively received are the ones who are breeding dogs so far outside the standard it's not an "interpretation." In fact, there's a number of threads where the general stream of thought is, "well, they do at least health test their dogs, so if you're really interested, go ahead and meet the breeder, the parents, etc." Sure, there's political stuff about breeders in the sport realm, but I've seen some pretty even-keel suggestions when people ask for ASL breeders, WGSL breeders, etc. There's even been, *gasp* good debate on if the standards are relevant, etc. There's a lot of nuances in sport and working dog worlds where they get really in depth into temperament and drives and pedigrees and whether so-and-so produces dogs who are all prey and no defense etc etc. I can't really say I've seen that translate towards "pet" people though. I've even seen a lot of the reputable working and sport people on here say that when a pet owner is looking for a dog, titles aren't necessarily the be-all-end-all.
> 
> As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)


It was not said by Cliff. The way it was stated it was meant as the standard all the way around, looks, temperament, and drive. So if the standard is there for a purpose, which it should be, how do people determine that that standard isn't really what the standard is? What are people suppose to base it off of? The standard set forth by the kennel club is the same that you see anywhere, so what about the standard needs to be revisited(which was also posted as the next sentence? Where do drives come in with the standard versus work ability? So if a dog doesn't have the drive to do IPO, it doesn't meet the standard? It honestly confused me and had me looking to see if standards are different somewhere? How does one come to the conclusion that the standard is wrong? If breeders are breeding for a standard(which they should) are they breeding them to their own standard or the standard that has been what the GSD is for many years?


----------



## Moriah

RocketDog said:


> There are some good points and interesting responses on this thread. I think there is a division between pet people and sport people although I don't think it's that big of a deal.
> 
> The biggest division on here I see is working line versus Show line. You rarely ever see Show lines discussed in any seriousness. In fact the recent thread titled "unicorn sighting" was a perfect example of how show lines are never taken seriously.
> 
> Granted I get that there are a lot of SLs that washout. But there's a lot of working lines that probably do too. I suspect that most of the working like people that have those dogs don't compete in IPO just like anything else. Or they are more easily trained to hide the weaknesses. In my opinion, I would prefer ability over looks. How a dog looks is clearly not as important as working or ability/temperament in general. But there are definitely WL breeders that sacrifice a lot of confirmation. I've seen them. Neither one is good.
> 
> *But in general this board is biased towards working lines. That may be neither here nor there but it's true.*




I agree. AND I want to know as much as I can about GSDs so I hang around to learn and I try not to personalize it. At least my WGSL's sire is a TeMar dog ......


----------



## robk

I think most people get too caught up in the lines. Can the dog work? Its a working breed. That is what I am interested in. All German Shepherds are working lines as far as I am concerned.


----------



## llombardo

robk said:


> I think most people get too caught up in the lines. Can the dog work? Its a working breed. That is what I am interested in. All German Shepherds are working lines as far as I am concerned.


This exactly. When you look at the standard(which I think is pretty accurate for the GSD) it says GSD and is not divided by the lines, it's across the board.


----------



## RocketDog

robk said:


> I think most people get too caught up in the lines. Can the dog work? Its a working breed. That is what I am interested in. All German Shepherds are working lines as far as I am concerned.



Agreed. 

I used to think the chances of running into 'bad' temperament genes were worse if you breed only for conformation. But I think that breeding in WL's can run amok just as easily, as a very recent thread, discussing a potential breeding illustrated. There were several suggestions that the pairing would cause 'screamers' and dogs that couldn't settle. This made me think about all the breedings designed to bring fire, aggression, civility, drive. 

Which one is worse? Dogs that can't 'work', but can be managed and owned by half of the moronic population of the world, or dogs that are too intense, end up in a shelter or biting/aggressing people/kids/animals?


----------



## LoveEcho

llombardo said:


> It was not said by Cliff. The way it was stated it was meant as the standard all the way around, looks, temperament, and drive. So if the standard is there for a purpose, which it should be, how do people determine that that standard isn't really what the standard is? What are people suppose to base it off of? The standard set forth by the kennel club is the same that you see anywhere, so what about the standard needs to be revisited(which was also posted as the next sentence? Where do drives come in with the standard versus work ability? So if a dog doesn't have the drive to do IPO, it doesn't meet the standard? It honestly confused me and had me looking to see if standards are different somewhere? How does one come to the conclusion that the standard is wrong? If breeders are breeding for a standard(which they should) are they breeding them to their own standard or the standard that has been what the GSD is for many years?


Darn it, I could have sworn he posted something similar. Ah well, I do see what you're saying and I agree. I also think the sort of breeders who are universally frowned upon here don't even bother asking those sorts of questions... people who produce "giant old-fashioned straight back (aka sway-backed) dogs with zero drive at all", people who say "I want replicas of my pet!", that sort of thing. There's been a lot of discussion (especially lately) on breeding without titles, why it's not always bad, why titles don't necessarily mean anything, etc. People actually seem surprisingly open to discussion about it, to me, anyways. I'm glad we have those discussions...means we're paying attention, I suppose. The breed is doomed as soon as we say, "why even bother with a standard anymore?"

Edited to add: definitely a bias on WL/SL. Maybe it's because the majority of people have WL and people stick to what they know? I have noticed that the most vehement anti-SL people are "pet" (again...not to be confused with PET) people who watch those stupid videos of dogs walking like frogs and thinking that it's the norm. Most of those threads get really crazy because of someone who doesn't know what a stack is, etc. But the undertones of WL being preferred are definitely there.


----------



## robk

RocketDog said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I used to think the chances of running into 'bad' temperament genes were worse if you breed only for conformation. But I think that breeding in WL's can run amok just as easily, as a very recent thread, discussing a potential breeding illustrated. There were several suggestions that the pairing would cause 'screamers' and dogs that couldn't settle. This made me think about all the breedings designed to bring fire, aggression, civility, drive.
> 
> Which one is worse? Dogs that can't 'work', but can be managed and owned by half of the moronic population of the world, or dogs that are too intense, end up in a shelter or biting/aggressing people/kids/animals?


That was my thread


----------



## CassandGunnar

Jax08 said:


> Oh Randy. I'm sorry. That was completely thoughtless of me.
> 
> I was thinking of our Boxer Sierra when I said that. Neurotic mess from bad breeding.


I didn't take that way at all. I know she was a mess and probably didn't have much of a chance, but we did all we could.


----------



## RocketDog

But not your breeding. And it was informative! Maybe those words of wisdom were bourne out of experience. That's definitely something to consider. 

But as always, you just eventually have to get out and walk that road yourself. You can read story upon story, but the only way you get experience is by doing.

@Robk


----------



## Jax08

omg Aimee! Absolutely! I've seen some working lines that you couldn't pay me to take.


----------



## RocketDog

Jax08 said:


> omg Aimee! Absolutely! I've seen some working lines that you couldn't pay me to take.



And I've seen some that barely resemble GSD's, and they were being bred. :tongue:


----------



## robk

RocketDog said:


> But not your breeding. And it was informative! Maybe those words of wisdom were bourne out of experience. That's definitely something to consider.
> 
> But as always, you just eventually have to get out and walk that road yourself. You can read story upon story, but the only way you get experience is by doing.
> 
> @Robk


That breeding will never happen. The owner of the female is looking at a different male now. I suggested him to her and then I unsuggested it to her after that thread.  I doubt she would have taken my suggestion anyway. She is much to conservative of a breeder.


----------



## LoveEcho

RocketDog said:


> And I've seen some that barely resemble GSD's, and they were being bred. :tongue:


Oh yeah! Including dogs that have IPO3's that were pushed through at a club level...


----------



## RocketDog

Nothing wrong with being conservative. (In this instance  )


----------



## Jax08

RocketDog said:


> And I've seen some that barely resemble GSD's, and they were being bred. :tongue:


Those were Golden Retrievers. I TOLD you that!


----------



## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I used to think the chances of running into 'bad' temperament genes were worse if you breed only for conformation. But I think that breeding in WL's can run amok just as easily, as a very recent thread, discussing a potential breeding illustrated. There were several suggestions that the pairing would cause 'screamers' and dogs that couldn't settle. This made me think about all the breedings designed to bring fire, aggression, civility, drive.
> 
> *Which one is worse? Dogs that can't 'work', but can be managed and owned by half of the moronic population of the world, or dogs that are too intense, end up in a shelter or biting/aggressing people/kids/animals?*




This is an important part of what I was trying to get at. Breeders (even within the same lines often have different visions). When people come on and are basically directed towards working lines, they may not realize that they are not all created equal. Some are very sport directed and could be too much for a lot of people. 
Breeders who breed for high drive sport type dogs still need to sell those puppies and a lot of them will wind up in pet homes. Same goes for the other end of the spectrum.


----------



## llombardo

LoveEcho said:


> Darn it, I could have sworn he posted something similar. Ah well, I do see what you're saying and I agree. I also think the sort of breeders who are universally frowned upon here don't even bother asking those sorts of questions... people who produce "giant old-fashioned straight back (aka sway-backed) dogs with zero drive at all", people who say "I want replicas of my pet!", that sort of thing. There's been a lot of discussion (especially lately) on breeding without titles, why it's not always bad, why titles don't necessarily mean anything, etc. People actually seem surprisingly open to discussion about it, to me, anyways. I'm glad we have those discussions...means we're paying attention, I suppose. The breed is doomed as soon as we say, "why even bother with a standard anymore?"


I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. The breed itself is sought after for their loyalty, versatility, workability and let's face it looks. They are beautiful dogs and are as smart as can be. If people think that standard should be revisited what would the traits that are so appealing to begin with be? I look at that standard and compare my dogs to it and I think ok we are good, still would never breed, but I'm happy knowing they really do meet the standards.


----------



## selzer

SuperG said:


> *" And when someone posts what have been posted umpteen times before, many of the newer converts to what makes an acceptable breeder around here are going to lead the charge against such a one. What they fail to realize, is that this is the umpteenth post on the subject that forum members have read, but for the poster it is the first. They haven't usually been around long enough to realize that what they said has just planted them amongst the doomed heathens. "*
> 
> 
> The only people exempt from this stigma are those who joined this forum first.....everything after that is "old hat" in those folk's eyes.
> 
> Somebody who is a first time GSD owner and uptight about the growth rate of their pup or the typical queries...nipping etc. still have a real life situation which is brand new to them and of a certain magnitude.
> 
> I might suggest it is somewhat a rite of passage and be embraced respectfully. We all were in a similar boat at a point in our lives.
> 
> Did I just repeat what you said?
> 
> 
> SuperG



I was speaking toward the I-want-to-breed-my-dog posts, moreso than anything else. I think that for the most part, people asking training questions, and puppy questions, and rescue questions, and gee-my-dog-just-bit-someone questions, usually get a pretty fair shake. 

It is the ones that ask about breeding their dogs that generally get their clocks cleaned. To a point, that makes sense. I mean, if we were the little town of Stepford, we would just say, "Oh yes, sure, and post pictures." There is a balance. People do need to suggest the dangers, the types of things that breeders ought to consider prior to breeding, the work in whelping, raising, and placing puppies. And even that much is often taken personally and elicits a defensive response. 

It is the internet. Sometimes the OP will go overboard and get defensive when only information and not judgement or bashing takes place, and other times the responders will upset the balance, but the moments when an OP dreaming of breeding their dog receives the information and advice in such a way that they get what they need without being offended is probably about as typical as when forum members win the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes.


----------



## robk

RocketDog said:


> Nothing wrong with being conservative. (In this instance  )


Hey, lets keep politics out of this discussion


----------



## LoveEcho

llombardo said:


> I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. The breed itself is sought after for their loyalty, versatility, workability and let's face it looks. They are beautiful dogs and are as smart as can be. If people think that standard should be revisited what would the traits that are so appealing to begin with be? I look at that standard and compare my dogs to it and I think ok we are good, still would never breed, but I'm happy knowing they really do meet the standards.


Which leads to the question of whether or not we would be re-writing the standard to match the level of dog being produced...people are breeding low drive, bad conformation, bad nerves... Since that's what the majority of GSD owners are dealing with, does that mean we should loosen the standard to accommodate? Some people on this forum have suggested that we should. Without the standard what defines a GSD? I have one dog who is far outside the standard in all ways, and one who is a pretty great example of it so far... It's been really interesting to compare them as a pet owner.


----------



## RocketDog

robk said:


> Hey, lets keep politics out of this discussion



:angel:


----------



## RocketDog

Jax08 said:


> Those were Golden Retrievers. I TOLD you that!



If only. GR are much better looking than what I have seen a few times.


----------



## Liesje

So I'm coming to this thread 10 pages in...Andy, what are you suggesting? Get rid of those forums? Or is this just a vent?

I have had show lines, working lines, and a show/work cross. I personally do not feel any generalized stigma toward any of the three. If I don't like a thread or the direction its taking, I just ignore it. Often if I have something to add (as in, I actually know the person being talked about, or I've met/know the dogs involved), I just PM the OP and take it from there.

I do not think there are many breeders active on this forum, so my critique of that section is that it's hard to have a real discussion about breeding. I mean, there are pedigrees and all that but when you actually BREED dogs, get down to the nitty gritty of how its done and everything that might be new or confusing or go wrong, I don't usually see those types of threads take off or vet more than one or two valuable responses. 

But if breeders don't want to participate they don't have to. I see a lot of double standards being imposed by armchair breeders.

I breed one of my dogs but don't usually discuss it here. I don't need the public to validate my decisions and I have really good mentors that I talk to and get help from in person, people who have been breeding longer than I've been alive and have seen it all.


----------



## llombardo

LoveEcho said:


> Which leads to the question of whether or not we would be re-writing the standard to match the level of dog being produced...people are breeding low drive, bad conformation, bad nerves... Since that's what the majority of GSD owners are dealing with, does that mean we should loosen the standard to accommodate? Some people on this forum have suggested that we should. Without the standard what defines a GSD? I have one dog who is far outside the standard in all ways, and one who is a pretty great example of it so far... It's been really interesting to compare them as a pet owner.


What are your thoughts on the GSD temperament test that they offer? I thought I was doing this great thing for my dogs and ran out and according to some people wasted my time and obviously $70. I thought it was an interesting test and I thought it worked with what the standards should be, but some people think that is a joke to


----------



## Liesje

Also as my "best" dog is my WGSL, I can't say I feel there is a bias against show lines here. I do think that many people are appropriately critical, as I am too. I've spent considerable time traveling around to shows, clubs, trials, and doing the WGSL thing, and am too often disappointed. If people "default" to working lines, that's fine with me I guess. The bottom line is, my dog has an insane amount of training and probably more titles and accomplishments than most GSDs in this country and I'm not saying this to brag, but that I do not take personal offense if someone writes of WGSL or whatever, that's their prerogative. They can call my dog crap all day but let's put up or shut up


----------



## RocketDog

If someone were to come on here, and ask for opinions on what lines (or breedings) to look for to do what you've done Lies, you know that 99% of it is going to be " get a working line". Very rarely do people suggest WGSL or even 'worse', ASL. :shrug: You and I and others may know different, but that's what the majority would say here.

(That is not to be confused with people actually asking if their SL can 'do' these things. Most of the time the answer will be 'yes'. But in asking for which line to go for, most will suggest WL).


----------



## Liesje

I don't see that as a bias against show lines though, I just think there may be more active WL people on the forum, and then people who have decided WL are best/getting one next time. 99% of the time when people ask me for a breeder recommendation, I'm recommending working line breeders, and not because *I* think WL are "better", but because I've just had better experiences with certain breeders, or have seen newbies have better experiences with certain WL breeders (even if those breeders are not selling a dog but recommending someone else in their area).


----------



## RocketDog

That could be true. I also have heard (and seen a little myself) of disappointment regarding SL's in certain venues. But I've also heard from reliable sources that I trust, who spend an inordinate amount of time in those same venues that there are plenty of SL that can and do work. 

I don't think you are biased. But there certainly are aplenty on here.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I dont know Lies.

There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs. 

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff? 

Well I think by now it has just been determined over time on here by a group of people who have known each other for quite awhile. Either online or in person.

Then there is the no breeder bashing. You are allowed to say good things. If someone doesn't like a breeder then they take it to a PM. Once the PMs start flying back and forth then some will assume the breeder in question is lousy. If the breeder is not a member of the board they can't defend that. 
Don't have a ready made answer it just doesn't seem right to me.


----------



## Liesje

I could be jaded....but luckily I'm not! My first GSD was a working line female, not a bad pedigree either (and for those that throw around points and titles, the sire was a SchH3 dog with multiple 100 pt scores, imported by someone who knows her stuff), and she was a total basket case. No confidence, nervy dog, had a bunch of really weird/crazy/neurotic behaviors, terrified of my own husband who is a very kind, gentle person (would poop on the floor if he accidentally startled her). But, alas, I evaluate each individual dog rather than generalizing that WL are nervy basket cases, right?


----------



## RocketDog

Of course. Now if only more people would apply that to not only WL but SL's as well. 

There is always the generalization that one is 'drivey' and one is 'lazy/weak'. 

In a perfect world...


----------



## Liesje

Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on. 

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.

ETA: I don't get why PMs make people assume a breeder is bad? I just sent a PM this evening because a thread involving a breeder went south and I actually had some firsthand knowledge and input (personal opinions based on actually observing the person and dog and a breeding experience with said breeder) so I PM'd the OP. Nothing negative intended or implied.


----------



## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.
> 
> As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.


I like this post.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.
> 
> I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.
> 
> They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?


People are always going to have their opinions. That's the beauty of a site like this. You get all types of people with all types of experience. It's the internet, so most aren't going to be shy to tell you how they really feel. Take in what you want and ignore what you want to ignore. 

I think people need to just educate themselves the best they can, but in the end, get the type of dog that best fits what they find ideal for their situation and goals for the dog.


----------



## Nigel

Jack's Dad said:


> I dont know Lies.
> 
> There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.
> 
> I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.
> 
> They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?
> 
> Well I think by now it has just been determined over time on here by a group of people who have known each other for quite awhile. Either online or in person.
> 
> Then there is the no breeder bashing. You are allowed to say good things. If someone doesn't like a breeder then they take it to a PM. Once the PMs start flying back and forth then some will assume the breeder in question is lousy. If the breeder is not a member of the board they can't defend that.
> Don't have a ready made answer it just doesn't seem right to me.


Pretty sure I seen the thread you're talking about before it was edited. Forum breeder making a thinly veiled jab at another well known and seemingly well liked breeder. It's certainly not all bad, but there's an abundance of back biting and bickering in the GSD world.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Whiteshepherds said:


> You're wrong. The GSD is not to supposed to serve just one purpose, it's supposed to be versatile.


I think your wrong . 
Were did I say they were supposed to serve one purpose? 

Do you think a GSD being a guide dog makes it a good breeding prospect? 

How about just breeding them for that pretty white colour?  

This word "VERSATILE" is often used as an excuse for a dog that is lacking or weak.

Versatile means the dog should be suited to numerous potential tasks including IPO. 
IPO or a similar venue is a baseline, without it we would be completely lost in the woods and have little to no workable stock.

I just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility. 
Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles..


If Im using my dog as a pointer/flusher in Upland Bird hunting. Does that make her breedable? How about a water retriever. 
I could train her to quarter, point, flush and retrieve shot birds if I wanted to. Does that make her a good breeding prospect? Maybe she should be bred to a German Shorthair Pointer or a Lab? Might even get some guide dogs out of the litter


----------



## carmspack

LoveEcho said:


> I think it's Cliff that posted that? Seems like a Cliff thing. Always a good discussion starter. It is true- be it angulation or whatever "extreme" we see. I don't think it has anything to do with blatantly breeding ultra low-drive, oversized, whatever dogs... dogs who are so far outside the standard that it can't even begin to be an interpretation of the standard...
> 
> I think most of the fallacy we see in the breed today is because of Joe Shmoe breeding their "pet" because they're uber protective and really big! The number of badly bred BYB dogs probably outnumbers the carefully bred dogs... just in my own observations, what I see daily. GSD's are really common here, and only a fraction of them are fine (or even marginal) examples of the breed. I think that's a much more prominent (and I mean this in terms of scale and numbers, not severity) issue than breeding for too much angulation, breeding dogs who were pushed to an IPO3 at club level but have crap temperament, etc.
> 
> In terms of the "a few people dictate what breeders are acceptable", I LOVE opening the "is this a good breeder?" threads. I open every one of them. The ONLY ones who are universally negatively received are the ones who are breeding dogs so far outside the standard it's not an "interpretation." In fact, there's a number of threads where the general stream of thought is, "well, they do at least health test their dogs, so if you're really interested, go ahead and meet the breeder, the parents, etc." Sure, there's political stuff about breeders in the sport realm, but I've seen some pretty even-keel suggestions when people ask for ASL breeders, WGSL breeders, etc. There's even been, *gasp* good debate on if the standards are relevant, etc. There's a lot of nuances in sport and working dog worlds where they get really in depth into temperament and drives and pedigrees and whether so-and-so produces dogs who are all prey and no defense etc etc. I can't really say I've seen that translate towards "pet" people though. I've even seen a lot of the reputable working and sport people on here say that when a pet owner is looking for a dog, titles aren't necessarily the be-all-end-all.
> 
> As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)


met with old friend Shaw today and of course discussion was 99.9% GSD . Here is an excerpt from an article soon to appear in Schutzhund USA and Das Schaferhund Magazin Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

robk said:


> I think most people get too caught up in the lines. Can the dog work? Its a working breed. That is what I am interested in. All German Shepherds are working lines as far as I am concerned.


far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .


----------



## huntergreen

llombardo said:


> It was not said by Cliff. The way it was stated it was meant as the standard all the way around, looks, temperament, and drive. So if the standard is there for a purpose, which it should be, how do people determine that that standard isn't really what the standard is? What are people suppose to base it off of? The standard set forth by the kennel club is the same that you see anywhere, so what about the standard needs to be revisited(which was also posted as the next sentence? Where do drives come in with the standard versus work ability? So if a dog doesn't have the drive to do IPO, it doesn't meet the standard? It honestly confused me and had me looking to see if standards are different somewhere? How does one come to the conclusion that the standard is wrong? If breeders are breeding for a standard(which they should) are they breeding them to their own standard or the standard that has been what the GSD is for many years?


imho, max von stepanitz set the standard. anything that deviates from his standard, is not the standard.


----------



## carmspack

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think your wrong .
> Were did I say they were supposed to serve one purpose?
> 
> Do you think a GSD being a guide dog makes it a good breeding prospect?
> 
> How about just breeding them for that pretty white colour?
> 
> This word "VERSATILE" is often used as an excuse for a dog that is lacking or weak.
> 
> Versatile means the dog should be suited to numerous potential tasks including IPO.
> IPO or a similar venue is a baseline, without it we would be completely lost in the woods and have little to no workable stock.
> 
> I just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility.
> Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles..
> 
> 
> If Im using my dog as a pointer/flusher in Upland Bird hunting. Does that make her breedable? How about a water retriever.
> I could train her to quarter, point, flush and retrieve shot birds if I wanted to. Does that make her a good breeding prospect? Maybe she should be bred to a German Shorthair Pointer or a Lab? Might even get some guide dogs out of the litter


Yes -- it was good enough for Bodo Lierberg .

did you really " just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility. 
Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles.."


----------



## huntergreen

a term used on this forum often is, "different flavors of gsd". if all breeders are striving to meet a standard, how can there be different flavors. ie, working line vs show line. of course there will be some variation between gsd, looks, coat color size ect... but should there be a difference between working and show line if all breed to standard? is breeding for certain exaggerated attributes really following the original standard?


----------



## lauren43

Moriah said:


> [/B]
> 
> I agree. AND I want to know as much as I can about GSDs so I hang around to learn and I try not to personalize it. At least my WGSL's sire is a TeMar dog ......


Don't worry I will join you at the end of sept. WGSL owners unite. Yep I'm a need.


----------



## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .


I disagree. I had a nothing dog, from nowhere who proved she could work. And she didn't work in a ring. Spent a lifetime as a patrol/protection dog, found a whole mess of 'misplaced' children for neighbors, herded everything from chickens to children to cows just for fun, was trained for narcotics detection and in her spare time raised orphaned bunnies, puppies, kittens, birds and a goat.
Versatility. Fairly certain it was nothing her 'breeder' planned for.

'The early tests were in the form of herding trials.* Later for dogs not so **employed*. a further set of tests were introduced, designed to prove intelligence, confidence, courage, vigor and an eagerness for work.'

Taken from 'The History of the German Shepherd Dog' not a word about bitting a sleeve.

As for this topic, I agree that this forum likes to run people off. I came here for a couple of things, some help finding a breeder, that I never got, and some assistance with my 'fun' puppy mill rescue. I did get a bit of help, and a lot of snark, a little support, for my girl. But mostly anything I post either gets ignored or shot down. Every time I have asked for a breeder recommendation I have been ignored, and whoever said they hadn't heard of any breeder being slammed? should read through the thread I started, not one breeder but two.

It's sadly amusing that we are all supposed to buy the perfect dog, but apparently there are what, half a dozen? breeders who can sell them to us.


----------



## robk

carmspack said:


> far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .


Of corse not all German shepherd dogs can work. That is not what I meant. What I meant is that, regardless of the lines, they should all be able to work before they are bred.


----------



## LoveEcho

Liesje said:


> Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.
> 
> As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.
> 
> ETA: I don't get why PMs make people assume a breeder is bad? I just sent a PM this evening because a thread involving a breeder went south and I actually had some firsthand knowledge and input (personal opinions based on actually observing the person and dog and a breeding experience with said breeder) so I PM'd the OP. Nothing negative intended or implied.


This is a really great post. 


I will say that I had gotten some eye rolls from some people when I got my puppy and they were sheerly out of a political nature and had to do with sport- not the dog in general (i.e. nobody would have batted an eye if I hadn't asked for pedigree advice specific to a sport prospect.) But, at the end of the day, the common thread of advice people give is always "talk to people who have dogs from this breeder, meet siblings if it's a repeat, etc" and that was what I went off of. 

This thread started as "we should pay more attention to breeders producing pets, since 90% of owners are pet people" to "well, why should pet people care about titles" which has brought back the "do titles matter" discussion, and here we are cyclically beating a dead horse. It's the nature of the 'net... and it is most definitely not GSD specific. I do think some of the breeders that are universally snarked at here are disliked because of specific events that a newb isn't going to know anything about because they either happened quite a long time ago, or happened outside of the board and board rules prevented discussion.


----------



## carmspack

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested ._

to which Sabis said "I disagree" 

On your other thread many members, myself included , tried to point out to you that (quote Sabis) a dog that is "highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting." , is not what a breeder should be breeding . Dog also described as difficult .
So contrary to what a good GSD should be . Not a candidate for working , and likely not a good pet because a pet owner at the least wants a dog that is happily interactive with them .

GSD shouldn't be bred for pet . GSD should be bred so that the basic temperament and stability of the dog allows the dog to be a very GOOD home companion , family member , go everywhere , roll with the punches pet , and/or contribute with his/her talents to a greater good.

these are things considered and chosen for .


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Sabis mom said:


> I disagree. I had a nothing dog, from nowhere who proved she could work. And she didn't work in a ring. Spent a lifetime as a patrol/protection dog, found a whole mess of 'misplaced' children for neighbors, herded everything from chickens to children to cows just for fun, was trained for narcotics detection and in her spare time raised orphaned bunnies, puppies, kittens, birds and a goat.
> Versatility. Fairly certain it was nothing her 'breeder' planned for.
> 
> 'The early tests were in the form of herding trials.* Later for dogs not so **employed*. a further set of tests were introduced, designed to prove intelligence, confidence, courage, vigor and an eagerness for work.'
> 
> Taken from 'The History of the German Shepherd Dog' not a word about bitting a sleeve.
> 
> As for this topic, I agree that this forum likes to run people off. I came here for a couple of things, some help finding a breeder, that I never got, and some assistance with my 'fun' puppy mill rescue. I did get a bit of help, and a lot of snark, a little support, for my girl. But mostly anything I post either gets ignored or shot down. Every time I have asked for a breeder recommendation I have been ignored, and whoever said they hadn't heard of any breeder being slammed? should read through the thread I started, not one breeder but two.
> 
> It's sadly amusing that we are all supposed to buy the perfect dog, but apparently there are what, half a dozen? breeders who can sell them to us.


 
If you truly believe this go to a byb pay 400 and be done with it. Im sure you will find a great working dog there.


----------



## holland

I think the searching for a breeder thread gets really old. I think owners need to decide what is important to them. I am on my 4th GSD and I am quite sure none of my breeders would be approved of on this board. My last dog came from to Sch III titled national competitors and was the 4th generation of the breeding program. It does not much matter to me that the breeder is not approved of by this board. I am happy with my dog. I probably will never come on here and ask for help selecting a breeder.

To me the important criteria are if something happens will the breeder take the dog back and care for it-all of my breeders would do this. And is the female special to them-and do you trust the breeder-just a gut feeling you get by meeting them


----------



## robk

holland said:


> I think the searching for a breeder thread gets really old. I think owners need to decide what is important to them. I am on my 4th GSD and I am quite sure none of my breeders would be approved of on this board. My last dog came from to Sch III titled national competitors and was the 4th generation of the breeding program. It does not much matter to me that the breeder is not approved of by this board. I am happy with my dog. I probably will never come on here and ask for help selecting a breeder.
> 
> *To me the important criteria are if something happens will the breeder take the dog back and care for it-all of my breeders would do this. And is the female special to them-and do you trust the breeder-just a gut feeling you get by meeting them*


I agree with all of this.


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> People that come on here asking about breeding most often don't want advice. They want validation. The only thing they want to hear is how awesome and where do we sign up to get a puppy.
> 
> When people are of that mindset then nothing you say, no matter how nicely, is going to be accepted. So how do you phrase it differently when they are going to be mad anyways?


I wanted to breed my dog. I changed my mind strictly on things I've read. I can list the phrases that got to me (one was that 'the kind of homes you'd want for your pups wouldn't want to buy from you') but the phrases will be diff for diff people 

there have been people that changed their minds even after the abuse they suffered. 

my point is, they don't deserve the abuse. they're not about to kill someone. they want to breed their dog because they don't know better. 

to me breeding my pets was the most natural thing. I don't know if it's cultural or what but that's how people got pets, from the russian newspaper, from people breeding their 2 pets. also, I heard the 'they must breed if left intact'

so people that want to do it just don't know any better. it takes time to sink in that this isn't a good idea (took me a few weeks) 
bashing them won't do anything. being nice about it will.


----------



## Blanketback

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If you truly believe this go to a byb pay 400 and be done with it. Im sure you will find a great working dog there.


Thanks Blitzkrieg, it's nice to start the day with a smile, lol.  You're funny!

I went that route once, and wasn't disappointed in my the dog at all. But, after being here and soaking up as much as I could (thank you, board members, for the education!) I know in retrospect, I'm disappointed in myself. Because I actively encouraged people to breed their GSDs for no better reason than that they had purebreds, and that was what I was looking for. Duh! Now I know better, and I think there are lots of people just like me here - you live and you learn. But your dollars are supporting something, when you spend them. I decided a long time ago to buy Can/US made products, to preserve our manufacturing sector. Even when I buy on ebay, if I can't support Canada Post (rather than use a courier service) then I won't buy the item. I think it's the same with GSDs, and choosing a breeder that is doing more than simply producing pups is what I think is important. But that's my view, and I don't expect others to share it.


----------



## martemchik

I actually don’t mind the threads, problem is, out of the 40000 members we have, the chances of one of them actually dealing with that breeder are slim to none. Sure, some people know them, and some people might know a few dogs that are loosely related to the breeding pair in question, but I’ve very rarely seen it that we have even 2 or 3 people that have dealt with the breeder in question directly or have had a dog from them. And at the end of the day, those should be the only people giving advice on a breeder. Too often I see the “red flagging” of things that the breeder does or doesn’t do, for no reason except that someone knows a breeder that they think is perfect and that’s the kind of breeder this person should be. Well, they’re not, and they might still be producing decent dogs, no one that looks at a webpage can say otherwise.

Then we give advice…see breeder X who’s on the forum. Well…same thing. There aren’t many people on here that have a dog from a forum breeder. They’ve just “communicated” with them enough to think they know what they breed, what their stock is like, and that the dogs are great…without ever seeing any of them. I’ve seen it plenty of times where a forum breeder doesn’t follow our magical flow chart of “should I breed my dog” and yet they get recommended.

Lies said it best, “Do as I say, not as I do.” Happens so often on this forum, it’s almost comical…and it happens in real life as well. I think people really need to just focus on only giving advice if they’ve had firsthand experience with a breeder, and not a few conversations over the internet…people need to only give advice if they’ve seen the dogs work or at least out and about in a bit more stressful situation. Too often we have our resident pedigree jockeys claiming they know what a puppy will turn out like because they’ve dealt with one of the dogs 3 generations back or bred to a brother of a grandsire at one point or another. That’s the kind of “advice” I’ll never understand.


----------



## lalachka

resident pedigree jockeys)))))) martem, you have a way with words


----------



## Blanketback

IDK martemchik - I think that there's so many different temperament 'types' within the breed, that someone with a vast amount of experience will be able to somewhat predict the outcome of a particular pairing. I've seen my dog being described before, in a totally unrelated context, because of his lines. I think it's very cool, that there are people out there than have witnessed progeny, and then their progeny, and then beyond that - and are willing and able to share that knowledge.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> IDK martemchik - I think that there's so many different temperament 'types' within the breed, that someone with a vast amount of experience will be able to somewhat predict the outcome of a particular pairing. I've seen my dog being described before, in a totally unrelated context, because of his lines. I think it's very cool, that there are people out there than have witnessed progeny, and then their progeny, and then beyond that - and are willing and able to share that knowledge.


But it's completely ridiculous when those people are questioning the knowledge of another (off the board) "reputable" breeder who is actually throwing the pair together, giving the customer their opinion which is based on actually knowing the two dogs being bred (and probably the dogs behind that breeding as well). I'm not saying that a pedigree isn't important, it's just funny when someone thinks they know more about dogs based on a piece of paper than the person that has actually worked the dogs.


----------



## lalachka

oh yeah, BB, i also agree. I didn't see my dog here lol because I don't know his lines but I've seen them point out traits and people agreeing that their dog is like that

I just thought it was a funny way to use words, I wasn't agreeing with the post. I don't know one way or the other, only what I read here and it seems like knowing the lines goes a long way towards predicting somewhat what the pup might be


----------



## Blanketback

Martemchik, when a lawyer is questioning a witness on the stand, they won't ask a question that they don't already know the answer to. No surprises to bite them in the butt, lol. If someone is asking a question here, about a breeding, I think that they're sincere and want an honest opinion. If they already knew the answer, then they'd have already sent their deposit for the puppy.


----------



## carmspack

so it's "pedigree jockeys" is it ?

I sure would want to have a breeder very knowledgeable on the combinations that they are putting together.

Why have pedigrees? 
Why not celebrate clueless, and random chance .

"questioning the knowledge of another (off the board) "reputable" breeder who is actually throwing the pair together"

Often that is the crux of the problem . The mating pair is thrown together . This could be based upon appearance, scores , titles. How many sites are there that state that they breed only the best GSD that the world has to offer and that is based on breeding only VA's to VA's -- or even in sport , the stampede to the BSP winners .

There is more to it.


----------



## martemchik

Yup...and if it's not done the way 2 breeders on gsd.com would do it. It's the wrong way to do it!


----------



## Blanketback

Well of course, if they don't agree with it, then for them it _would_ be wrong. LOL!!! What's your point? You can't very well redefine the word 'opinion' can you?


----------



## Jax08

Compared to the wide, wide world, there are very FEW breeders on this board. Even before people stopped posting there were only a handful. Everyone needs to find their own criteria for finding a breeder. What I look for in a breeder for ethics isn't going to be what others look for.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> Well of course, if they don't agree with it, then for them it _would_ be wrong. LOL!!! What's your point? You can't very well redefine the word 'opinion' can you?


Read the post that started it all...if you haven't actually had experience with the dogs, what is your opinion worth? And many times, we'll have others come on and start adding "do you know who you're talking with?!?! They know EVERYTHING!!"

The people that ask the breeder questions are many times newbies, it's very rare that someone involved in IPO at a decent level actually asks about a pedigree or a breeder. They have people they know in real life that they trust to give them the right information...they also usually know a lot more than your average owner and have some idea of what they're looking for. To the newbies...having 3 or 4 people question the breeder's decision is many times 3 or 4 people too many, and it's just not fair.

I'm also not talking about the clear BYB or mass production line breeders. I'm talking about when we start to question off-board breeders that are clearly doing something right and yet it's still not good enough for certain people.

If you do follow those threads...the best is when that breeder gets wind of it, makes an account, and defends their breeding. For some reason, all the "doubters" tuck tail and run...they get quiet really quickly. It's really funny how much braver people are when they don't actually have to stand up to the person they're questioning.


----------



## wolfstraum

Just read through this and have some thoughts....

First off - we ALL love German Shepherd Dogs. Period. We loved the breed before we got it...for the image and reputation of intelligence, versatility, noble demeanor, loyalty and of course, it's stunning appearance - medium large, alert expression, and those ears - yes, those ears...the wolf like look!

The Standard: The name of the breed is the GERMAN Shepherd Dog. GERMAN. Thus, my personal preference for dogs bred to the SV standard. Given the reality of our challenges in the US due to the size and scarcity of IPO club opportunities, I agree that SOME measure of latitude has to be made in adhering to the criteria of the SV for breeding. But, I also feel that, through experience, and experience takes TIME, breeders can still have a program that is acceptable. The IPO test was developed to test breeding stock. Along with the HGH, this test will challenge the dog and handler to show the character that the breed standard describes. A breeder who has generations of dogs which he has trained and bred will have more insight into the dog's character, ability and where traits come from. How to preserve desirable qualities. How to breed out undesirable.

The phrase I hate is "breeding to improve the BREED". Think about that. There is a standard, to improve the breed, you must exceed that standard. Therefore, I believe that breeding should strive to MEET the standard.

There is a school of thought that pedigree does not matter. That looking at two dogs will tell you what you get. If it were that easy, then breeding two dogs who were highly placed at the Nationals/Worlds would give you dogs that you could take to the same level. That breeding the male and female winners of the BSZS (German Nationals - ie, Sieger Show) would produce pups that would then place 1st at the National Championship. That breeding the mare who won the Kentucky Oaks to the colt who won the Kentucky Derby would produce a winner of one of those races. Well, it does NOT work that way. Pedigree is the foundation of every animal breeding endeavor. Studying pedigrees, learning what dog was preponent for what qualities and what dogs did not pass on their genetics is important when you try to meet that standard. That knowledge takes years to acquire, and is a never ending learning experience.
People who breed generations of dogs, who experience training not just their lines, but are watching dogs of other lines/pedigrees train, tend to learn what works together, what comes from where - good and bad.....
And there is a vast difference in just buying titled dogs, sending dogs to Europe to get titles, and breeding without that training experience. Living with the dogs can tell you things as well. But many big volume breeders just buy dogs, keep them in kennels and breed them. Their interaction is at feeding time and maybe some exercise or play time if the dog is lucky and they even do this themselves. Sharing breeding females who then get the opportunity to live in a home, part of a family, even watching them train, is an alternative.
Yes, I have expressed a negative opinion because of my own moral convictions as well. Having had 2 dogs who were kennel raised that then turned into house dogs when I acquired them, I see the personality and the desires of the dog. I don't like, actually I abhor, kenneling dogs. Keeping 5 - 10 -- 15 breeding dogs in kennels and making a living off those puppies - no matter if the dogs are high quality imports or BYB puppy mill dogs in nice kennels or in piecemeal cages - is something that does nothing but elicit anger and pity from me. Sorry - dogs are meant to be companion animals, and no matter how well you care for caged dogs, you are denying them their primary purpose by this. I feel so sorry for those females. I think of the love and gratitude of my Alice and Basha....both of whom firmly planted themselves in the house, and hated being put out for even an hour in a kennel run. Their heads would hang, their tails droop and they would stand and not move towards a kennel run. Basha would much rather be in a crate in the living room than outside in a run. 



Everyone has different tolerances, everyone likes something different. I don't speak for others, only myself.


Lee


----------



## Blanketback

Martemchik: yeah but, so what? Breeders are on a sliding scale - from the ones who let their intact females roam to the ones who are _very_ serious about their particular lines. And I don't know why this upsets you. If someone asks what another's opinion is, then they should be open to whatever answer they receive.


----------



## wolfstraum

But people do not want honesty and opinions much of the time. They want validation of their own opinion, reassurance that they are choosing correctly.

Lee


----------



## Blanketback

And that's why I mentioned not asking unless you knew the answer, if you're looking for a _specific_ answer. There's no logical reason to ask for an opinion if you don't want to hear it. Nobody should be looking for validation.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> And that's why I mentioned not asking unless you knew the answer, if you're looking for a _specific_ answer. There's no logical reason to ask for an opinion if you don't want to hear it. Nobody should be looking for validation.


Lol why not? people look for validation all the time. half the treads here are about validation. I do it too though I try to limit it. most people do it. 
we have the need to be approved and liked by others. it sucks but it's true.


----------



## atravis

I have no problems with people who prefer and expect something different from their breeders. There are many different ways of thinking when it comes to breeding, and I'd venture to say that there is nothing that is 100% perfect.

That said, what I do take issue with, are highly critical accusations from people who know absolutely nothing at all about the people they are defaming. They look at a website and build an opinion about it, without ever actually visiting the facility or even TALKING to the breeder, and suddenly they know what's up and throw out extremely bold claims. Which frankly, is *wrong*. 

We've all done it- I've done it. Look at a website and make an assumption. But to publicly go forward and continue to lampoon people we know nothing about doesn't make much sense. Especially when the things being said quite simply aren't true.

A breeder with a lot of dogs and a lot of litters on their webpage automatically gets labeled a puppy mill, with miserable dogs that waste away in kennels all day long. Sounds great as a pity pull, but dig a little deeper and actually know the operation behind the website, and realize that the large majority of dogs listed don't even live at the kennel, are part of a vast co-ownership network that work under the supervision of the breeder while IN loving homes, and only come back to the kennel to be assessed and bred, then return to their homes. But we can't glean that from a website, so instead we make baseless accusations, they must be miserable kennel dogs pumping out merchandise for a miller. No other possible scenario.


----------



## Blanketback

Lala, what if I told you that your hair should be black and your livingroom should be painted a deep peacock blue? And you should eat one meal a day that's strictly dark chocolate? Ok, I can see lots of people being on board for that last one.  But you know what I mean: it's all personal, subjective opinion.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Lala, what if I told you that your hair should be black and your livingroom should be painted a deep peacock blue? And you should eat one meal a day that's strictly dark chocolate? Ok, I can see lots of people being on board for that last one.  But you know what I mean: it's all personal, subjective opinion.


I'm talking about our need to be liked and approved. Subjective it might be in small things but we have same moral values and stuff. And we are constantly looking for approval, consciously or unconsciously. No one is bragging about abusing their dogs, for example. On the contrary, people go out of their way to list the things they do for their dogs. 

I'm really far on that scale. I go outside looking like a bum everyday, do what I want and don't let people boss me around. I go against others on principle, just not to follow sometimes. So I'm actually one of those that people say don't care. But still I catch myself caring and I hate it. 

My hair is black naturally))))) and I eat nothing but chocolate for days at a time. But I get your point.


----------



## Blanketback

I'm not normal then, because I don't look for approval. I do what I want and I expect people to allow me that courtesy, within reason, lol. I wish more people would care less about what others think, and care more about their own impact on society. I'm a dreamer.


----------



## martemchik

I was trying to relate it more to what the OP was. Why do we shoot down any breeder that doesn’t do it exactly perfect like some of the ones on this forum *claim* to do? Or someone you know, or even the breeder you went to. It makes no sense. If you scare a “newbie” and give them even an ounce of doubt about where they got their dog from, or where they might get their dog from, it’s counterproductive. It also makes people defensive, then they leave.

Many times, the opinions sound like guarantees. Especially when others help out and lend credibility to people stating those opinions that shouldn’t have that much credibility in the first place (to the OP). At the end of the day, we're all internet strangers, no one really knows anyone's real resume. And whenever someone starts talking about their own accomplishments...it's usually inflated.

The fact is, even with the broad spectrum of breeders…many of us can agree on what’s good and bad. It’s the ones that fall somewhere in between (but closer to good) that always confuse me. You’ll have people calling them out for things on their website, or in the pedigree, when they’ll give other breeders a break over the same stuff just because they “know them.” It happens a lot when it comes to titles…anyone random “ALL DOGS SHOULD BE IPO3!” anyone on this board…well, they know what they’re doing, they’ve produced a lot of successful dogs (that we’ve never met), so they can breed an untitled dog.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> I'm not normal then, because I don't look for approval. I do what I want and I expect people to allow me that courtesy, within reason, lol. I wish more people would care less about what others think, and care more about their own impact on society. I'm a dreamer.


Dig inside yourself honestly. Everyone does. We are social and that alone implies that we care what others think of us.


----------



## Blanketback

Speak for yourself, lala!  If I cared what others thought about me, then that would mean that I'd have to instill my beliefs on others. Because I'd be expecting them to conform to my ideals. What a bully that would make me!!! LOL!!!


----------



## lhczth

Food for thought that fits well with what martemchik and, I believe, Jack's dad are trying to say. This is directed at breeders but the general message is very good. 

Does the Purebred Dog World Have a Death Wish?




martemchik said:


> I was trying to relate it more to what the OP was. Why do we shoot down any breeder that doesn’t do it exactly perfect like some of the ones on this forum *claim* to do? Or someone you know, or even the breeder you went to. It makes no sense. If you scare a “newbie” and give them even an ounce of doubt about where they got their dog from, or where they might get their dog from, it’s counterproductive. It also makes people defensive, then they leave.
> 
> 
> The fact is, even with the broad spectrum of breeders…many of us can agree on what’s good and bad. It’s the ones that fall somewhere in between (but closer to good) that always confuse me. You’ll have people calling them out for things on their website, or in the pedigree, when they’ll give other breeders a break over the same stuff just because they “know them.” It happens a lot when it comes to titles…anyone random “ALL DOGS SHOULD BE IPO3!” anyone on this board…well, they know what they’re doing, they’ve produced a lot of successful dogs (that we’ve never met), so they can breed an untitled dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

Carmen and Blitzkreig, thank you for validating my post. Some members on this site are opinionated, unwelcoming and rude, sadly they seem to be the only ones allowed to be heard. You do not want to educate or share. This is like a cult. My way or the highway. If we keep saying it you will believe.

So I will say it again and maybe this time someone will notice. I came to this site for support and friendship. I thought the site was ' _a German Shepherd __website and forum. This site is dedicated to all aspects of the German Shepherd Dog. The German Shepherd Dog is respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, intelligence, and loyalty. This is their home_.'



Carmen, did you not like me disagreeing with you so you talked about something unrelated? 

Blitzkreig, that was a juvenile response. I have stated repeatedly that I have grave concerns about health and do not support discriminate breeding

I fail to see the logic in insulting and demeaning people as an educational tool. One would think that people who care about the breed and are knowledgeable about certain aspects, would want to share.


----------



## carmspack

this is the purpose of a web site "They look at a website and build an opinion about it,"

oh boy , this makes it worse , not better "A breeder with a lot of dogs and a lot of litters on their webpage automatically gets labeled a puppy mill, with miserable dogs that waste away in kennels all day long. Sounds great as a pity pull, but dig a little deeper and actually know the operation behind the website, and realize that the large majority of dogs listed don't even live at the kennel, are part of a vast co-ownership network that work under the supervision of the breeder while IN loving homes, and only come back to the kennel to be assessed and bred, then return to their homes."

sounds like a puppy farmer . Plant , feed, then harvest the bounty .
Knew one of those ! Almost every pup went out with some conditions requiring breeding. Franchise?

The "breeder" knows even less about the female then .
Not even do they not work them they don't even experience them at all .


----------



## lhczth

I do feel this board can be very very hard on new people who come here with an interest in breeding. Funny thing is that most often it is not breeders that are the attackers, but non breeders. Yes, it can be frustrating when a new person comes here for validation to breed fluffy at 1 year of age with no health testing, but many others come here looking for knowledge. Attacking them does nothing, but chase them away. As the saying goes, "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar". 

As far as the "do you know this breeder" threads. I am developing a huge love/hate relationship with those topics. We, a generalized "we", want to be able to direct people away from the worst, but often we slaughter other breeders just because they do not conform to "our" standards. Flinging around words like "puppy mill" or "BYB" is very elitist and does nothing except divide all breeders (see link above) or is used to make "us" look better or maybe more enlightened. 

I know that I am extremely picky about who I would buy a pup from. There are many breeders that people recommend whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but my standards are not others' standards.

BTW, of all of the active ADMIN and mods on this board only 3 of us are breeders. Chris and I breed working lines and Daphne breeds ASL (and has now done some crosses). Lies owns a SL stud dog. David has worked most of his life with working dogs , but doesn't breed. Renee (ladylaw) is a k-9 handler (also finds dogs for other dept) and has bred a little, but doesn't post often. I am probably the only one who does IPO predominately while the other 3 who do IPO do many other activities. We are a pretty diverse group. Rescue folk, agility people, SAR handlers, service dog handler, strictly pet owners (though we are all pet owners), etc.


----------



## atravis

Except that the part where the breeder keeps close supervision over the dog is completely omitted from that explanation. 

Well gee, I know this breeder who does that. Isn't big into IPO, but does have a trainer they work closely with AT their own kennel, who works and asses these dogs in IPO, and who enjoys their own dogs and has spent a lot of time working them in things they enjoy better like herding, nose work, tracking, etc. Most go to active pet homes, some to working, some that are active SAR and K9s. And then sometimes they have one they like enough to keep back, and when they do, they offer them to people who are close and willing to work under their guidance, so that when the pup is of age they can come back to the kennel and be assessed. If the dog doesn't work out, they are altered and remain lovely family pets. If they do, they are bred, and also remain beloved family pets.

I get that people don't like people who don't keep their hands on their dogs 100% of the time- I DO, believe me, and I would agree someone who HOTs their dogs is probably going to know that dog a lot better than anyone else. BUT... big but... because someone does buy titled dogs, or has their dog titled by someone else, does co-owns dogs, does NOT make them a puppy mill or a bad breeder. At least not, ahem, in_ my _opinion.


----------



## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> this is the purpose of a web site "They look at a website and build an opinion about it,"
> 
> oh boy , this makes it worse , not better "A breeder with a lot of dogs and a lot of litters on their webpage automatically gets labeled a puppy mill, with miserable dogs that waste away in kennels all day long. Sounds great as a pity pull, but dig a little deeper and actually know the operation behind the website, and realize that the large majority of dogs listed don't even live at the kennel, are part of a vast co-ownership network that work under the supervision of the breeder while IN loving homes, and only come back to the kennel to be assessed and bred, then return to their homes."
> 
> sounds like a puppy farmer . Plant , feed, then harvest the bounty .
> Knew one of those ! Almost every pup went out with some conditions requiring breeding. Franchise?
> 
> The "breeder" knows even less about the female then .
> Not even do they not work them they don't even experience them at all .


Agreed Carmen....there was a guy 10 - 20 years ago who was the MASTER groundbreaker of this!!!! When the sport got a bit bigger, and the internet started giving people more options, he pretty much phased out breeding GSDs...or maybe he made enough money and just plain old retired....does not matter why, just random thoughts - he did well for years selling puppies.

I can think of at least SIX - 6 - breeders in a heartbeat that produce high volumes of litters with dogs they buy titled and or just plain broker....WGSL, WL even mixes of both....not picking on ONE or someone's choice....frankly, I could care less to talk to someone who breeds high volume for nice looking pets, as can be easily ascertained by the pedigrees of dogs being used, and whose kennel name RARELY show up in working homes or titled, (follow trial results in USCA, DVG and WDA publications both in print and online)...just because someone buys a puppy does not mean that breeder is the best in the country...they like their puppy - great, they are loyal to the breeder - also nice...but it does not change any of the numbers or facts.

Lee


----------



## Sabis mom

atravis said:


> Except that the part where the breeder keeps close supervision over the dog is completely omitted from that explanation.
> 
> Well gee, I know this breeder who does that. Isn't big into IPO, but does have a trainer they work closely with AT their own kennel, who works and asses these dogs in IPO, and who enjoys their own dogs and has spent a lot of time working them in things they enjoy better like herding, nose work, tracking, etc. Most go to active pet homes, some to working, some that are active SAR and K9s. And then sometimes they have one they like enough to keep back, and when they do, they offer them to people who are close and willing to work under their guidance, so that when the pup is of age they can come back to the kennel and be assessed. If the dog doesn't work out, they are altered and remain lovely family pets. If they do, they are bred, and also remain beloved family pets.
> 
> I get that people don't like people who don't keep their hands on their dogs 100% of the time- I DO, believe me, and I would agree someone who HOTs their dogs is probably going to know that dog a lot better than anyone else. BUT... big but... because someone does buy titled dogs, or has their dog titled by someone else, does co-owns dogs, does NOT make them a puppy mill or a bad breeder. At least not, ahem, in_ my _opinion.


You do not get the privilege of an opinion silly

I am getting the feeling they don't like us 'round these parts!


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Speak for yourself, lala!  If I cared what others thought about me, then that would mean that I'd have to instill my beliefs on others. Because I'd be expecting them to conform to my ideals. What a bully that would make me!!! LOL!!!


It doesn't mean that at all but this is a discussion for a different thread. And not on this forum lol


----------



## Jack's Dad

lhczth said:


> I do feel this board can be very very hard on new people who come here with an interest in breeding. Funny thing is that most often it is not breeders that are the attackers, but non breeders. Yes, it can be frustrating when a new person comes here for validation to breed fluffy at 1 year of age with no health testing, but many others come here looking for knowledge. Attacking them does nothing, but chase them away. As the saying goes, "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar".
> 
> As far as the "do you know this breeder" threads. I am developing a huge love/hate relationship with those topics. We, a generalized "we", want to be able to direct people away from the worst, but often we slaughter other breeders just because they do not conform to "our" standards. Flinging around words like "puppy mill" or "BYB" is very elitist and does nothing except divide all breeders (see link above) or is used to make "us" look better or maybe more enlightened.
> 
> I know that I am extremely picky about who I would buy a pup from. There are many breeders that people recommend whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but my standards are not others' standards
> 
> BTW, of all of the active ADMIN and mods on this board only 3 of us are breeders. Chris and I breed working lines and Daphne breeds ASL (and has now done some crosses). Lies owns a SL stud dog. David has worked most of his life with working dogs , but doesn't breed. Renee (ladylaw) is a k-9 handler (also finds dogs for other dept) and has bred a little, but doesn't post often. I am probably the only one who does IPO predominately while the other 3 who do IPO do many other activities. We are a pretty diverse group. Rescue folk, agility people, SAR handlers, service dog handler, strictly pet owners (though we are all pet owners), etc.


This is where I was going.

It seems that when these topics come up there is a stock forum answer.
Like a slot machine that just keeps landing on the same numbers even though there may be thousands of possible combinations.

The thread was not intended to be about "forum breeders" but the responses to questions about breeders and who is good and who is not.

Some talked about the "standard". I think most of us agree about the need for a GSD standard but it's various incarnations are subject to interpretation.

It's kind of like the bible. Some interpret it literally, others more liberally and some don't believe in it at all.
I have a feeling my view of the standard is different than Blitz's.
I think Blitz believes a real GSD should be able to rip the door off of a moving vehicle.

My GSD has solid nerve, appropriate aggression, is healthy and does not terrorize the neighborhood but I don't much care how hard they can clamp down on a sleeve.

To RobK. I am not anti IPO at all. I just don't agree that it alone is a good judge of whether a dog will produce after itself.

Race horses are a good example. Champions are fairly well known for not necessarily producing well. The mares I have read are as important or even more so than the champion stud.


----------



## lalachka

wolfstraum said:


> .frankly, I could care less to talk to someone who breeds high volume for nice looking pets, as can be easily ascertained by the pedigrees of dogs being used, and whose kennel name RARELY show up in working homes or titled, (follow trial results in USCA, DVG and WDA publications both in print and online)...just because someone buys a puppy does not mean that breeder is the best in the country...they like their puppy - great, they are loyal to the breeder - also nice...but it does not change any of the numbers or facts.
> 
> Lee


My uneducated input. Always willing to learn though. 

Doesn't this mean only that those breeders breed dogs that will succeed in sport? That's their goal and they achieve it?
Dogs bred for sport need qualities that some would argue GSD doesn't need (over the top prey is one that I know of) and even hurts them (read here) 

There's a thread here now about k9 performance and the consensus is that the dog is ready to work the streets and is a good dog just not an ipo dog (he may be but he isn't trained for it today)

I'm against breeding pets. I don't like the idea of breeding dogs that the public can handle. I actually don't understand why someone would want a 'watered down' GSD 
I think It's so amazing to have a 'real dog' and rise to the challenge of raising it. 
I'm going to catch a beating but this is why I'm so adamant about not fixing my dog and not adopting fixed dogs. I want the real thing. I love a challenge 

So I'm not arguing for breeding without working dogs. I just want to be fair to those breeders that don't think ipo is the only way to test a dog. I do think they should be tested for protection though, more of an instinct to protect. How-I don't know lol. But I'm sure people with experience have many ideas.


----------



## Liesje

lhczth said:


> I do feel this board can be very very hard on new people who come here with an interest in breeding. Funny thing is that most often it is not breeders that are the attackers, but non breeders. Yes, it can be frustrating when a new person comes here for validation to breed fluffy at 1 year of age with no health testing, but many others come here looking for knowledge. Attacking them does nothing, but chase them away. As the saying goes, "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar".
> 
> As far as the "do you know this breeder" threads. I am developing a huge love/hate relationship with those topics. We, a generalized "we", want to be able to direct people away from the worst, but often we slaughter other breeders just because they do not conform to "our" standards. Flinging around words like "puppy mill" or "BYB" is very elitist and does nothing except divide all breeders (see link above) or is used to make "us" look better or maybe more enlightened.
> 
> I know that I am extremely picky about who I would buy a pup from. There are many breeders that people recommend whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but my standards are not others' standards.


Agree with this and as someone who was considering breeding my dog, I should say that the people who were the MOST helpful (not helpful as in telling me to do it, but helpful as in helping me think critically about it, make sure I had all my ducks in a row) were some of the people I would have initially thought would be against it. It's been the breeders who I deeply admire and respect who have been the most generous in offering their time and advice (FWIW my mentors are not all GSD breeders and I'm not talking about just this board). If we drive away everyone who has an interest in breeding, what will we have left in 20, 30, 100 years?

As far as using IPO as a breed test, this is my personal feeling. What I have learned about GSDs, dogs in general, training, genetic temperament, drives, pedigrees, and breeding through doing IPO is absolutely invaluable. I can't think of any other way I could have learned even the amount that I know now (not having done it very long, 6 years). There really is no substitute. Also it absolutely was critical in learning about MY dog, how his pedigree is expressed, what sorts of breedings would give the best results if I chose to go that route. Now I have recently fallen away from IPO because life is in the way. The more I do IPO, the more I love it, but the less I'm learning about my current dog. If I have another dog in the future that I consider a breeding prospect, I would absolutely do IPO with that dog. It has little to do with scores or titles but everything to do with what *I* as the owner/trainer/handler can learn both from the overall experience and about my dog.


----------



## lalachka

I want to add about ipo as learning about your dog. I haven't done it but from dabbling in training I believe this to be true. 

Problem is that you also need the presence of mind and whatever else to be able to be honest about your dogs and then be able to decide not to breed some of them after you titled them to ipo3 and spent I don't know, years? 

I don't know if people can do that. I don't know if I would be able to. I think once the dog is titled it's hard to do and much easier to use the title as a breeding right.

Also, you love your dogs and you look at them with rose glasses. And then you have outsiders confirming he's amazing (by giving you titles) 

Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?

Or once you have 3 then the dog is solid?


----------



## Jack's Dad

Serious question.

How long would it take to develop a your own "line" if you wish to become a *reputable* hobby breeder? Someone who personally titles all their own dogs and desires to produce a couple or several litters a year.

You can't be reputable when you start so when would one arrive.

Seems to me like a long time especially if a couple of potential dogs wash out. If so what happens to all the puppies before a breeder is reputable?


----------



## Liesje

Jack's Dad said:


> Serious question.
> 
> How long would it take to develop a your own "line" if you wish to become a *reputable* hobby breeder? Someone who personally titles all their own dogs and desires to produce a couple or several litters a year.
> 
> You can't be reputable when you start so when would one arrive.
> 
> Seems to me like a long time especially if a couple of potential dogs wash out. If so what happens to all the puppies before a breeder is reputable?


As far as setting a type and developing a "line", I'd say at least 3 generations/breedings in. When I think about breeding my own dog and the type I'd want to "set" in the line, I have thought 3 generations into the future before I would expect the result.

I won't get into the "reputable" aspect


----------



## carmspack

question was "Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?"

MY answer YES . Usually that would include the entire litter . Pruning .


----------



## Jack's Dad

Liesje said:


> As far as setting a type and developing a "line", I'd say at least 3 generations/breedings in. When I think about breeding my own dog and the type I'd want to "set" in the line, I have thought 3 generations into the future before I would expect the result.
> 
> *I won't get into the "reputable" aspect *




Chicken.









How would the dog generations translate into people years? 

Lisa, Lee, how long before you developed a "type".


----------



## lalachka

carmspack said:


> question was "Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?"
> 
> MY answer YES . Usually that would include the entire litter . Pruning .


what's prunning?

and if you really did this then you have my respect. I know how hard that is to do and that's what integrity is to me


----------



## martemchik

To quickly answer the IPO3 question…

From what I’ve seen, if a dog is at IPO3, it’s proven to have “enough” nerve. That’s where it gets subjective though, someone might think it’s good enough, others might not, it’s then up to the customer to be able to go see the dog work and figure out for themselves if they want a puppy out of that kind of dog.

If the dog is lacking in somethings, you can still breed it. There are no perfect dogs. What you then try to do is match it to a mate that has what the first dog is lacking in. That way, the puppies have a chance to have the best of both dogs.

What you should understand is that as a stud dog owner you’re competing against all the other studs out there to try and get a female owner’s attention. If you own the male…you can always say no if you think the breeding will be poor or won’t match correctly, but at the end of the day, you do tend to trust the female’s owner/kennel that they’ve thought this through and have asked you for a stud service.

The progeny your dog produces follows you around FOREVER. So…if you bred a subpar dog, that produces subpar puppies 10 years ago. People (in the know, more likely regionally) will remember. They’ll remember when you bred a dog that probably shouldn’t have been bred due to X, Y, or Z and it will affect your future breeding because people will have those preconceived notions…even if your dog today deserves to be bred.

Truth is…this forum is a very weird picture of what happens in the real world. From what I’ve seen in the real world, “acceptable” is much more lax. Basically…breeders worry more about their reputation, and placing puppies. It really depends on the breeder’s goals at that point… When you do a breeding announcement, and in 2 days you have 10 people that “know” are calling you for puppies, you know you did something right. If you do a breeding announcement and no one except the dreaded “pet person” calls…you know that your pairing is probably lacking something, if your goal is to breed good working/sport dogs. The market, and the people around you (a lot of times in sport and sometimes in working venues) will tell you how it feels about the direction of your breeding program. Some breeders are more than happy to place all their dogs in “pet homes” others realize that it does mean more if you can place a large majority into sport homes (especially high level competitive ones) or even better yet you can place a dog in a SAR or K9 working home.

Don’t you believe it says a lot more about a breeder when they can say they’ve placed X amount of dogs into police departments, X amount of dogs into SAR teams, X amount of dogs have made it to nationals for IPO, than…all my dogs are living happily in regular homes?


----------



## lalachka

martem, i will reply later but quickly. I know that it's subjective. my question should've been. you title the dog to 3 and in the process see things that you don't like. things you mightve condemned others for breeding. do you breed?
Carmen says she doesn't. to me that's impressive. I'd def struggle with this


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> martem, i will reply later but quickly. I know that it's subjective. my question should've been. you title the dog to 3 and in the process see things that you don't like. things you mightve condemned others for breeding. do you breed?
> Carmen says she doesn't. to me that's impressive. I'd def struggle with this


As the person on the “male” side of things…if someone calls, if I think the female will offset my dog’s weaknesses, I’ll probably still go ahead with it. The way I personally think about it is, “will I want a puppy from this pair?” And it’s highly unlikely that a male, at an IPO3 level, has such glaring weaknesses that you probably wouldn’t want to breed him.

I’m assuming some people have a hard time being “objective” but I’ve noticed the more I work dogs, the more I realize how much the working ability is important, the easier it is to see the weaknesses in my dog and the strengths in others…and a lot of the people I train with are that way. It really helps me to understand what I want out of my next dog, what kind of drives, what kind of balance, and what IMO is the proper GSD.

I’m also not developing a breeding program/kennel though. I’m just focused on that dog, at that time, and seeing what I could do with him. Sure…if it starts to look like I’m just breeding to anyone that calls it’s a bad thing, but you’ll see that the end all be all dogs of the time don’t really discriminate and tend to just collect stud fees. If your stud fee is high enough (because it’s warranted) you’ll eliminate a lot of the breeders that we like to complain about anyways.


----------



## lalachka

so once you get to 3 the dog can be bred? because if he had big enough problems then he wouldn't get there?

but I liked Jack's question. all breeders start somewhere. it takes time to develop a line and pups are born in the meanwhile. 
so until they're reputable (whenever that is) they get called bybs and puppy millers on forums lol?


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> And it’s highly unlikely that a male, at an IPO3 level, has such glaring weaknesses that you probably wouldn’t want to breed him.


I don't know....last show I attended I saw an IPO3 male doing a breed survey and not engage on the long bite (which for this particular survey was more of a half length, back-uppy bite).

Lalachka, it depends on what problems are "big" to you. I've met IPO3 dogs that I would not want to own or buy puppies from because they do not have the skills or temperament that I personally am looking for. It's a free country so they can be bred for people that like that type of dog and I am free to abstain from buying their puppies or breed my own if I want to.


----------



## martemchik

It’s got nothing to do with it can/can’t. If your dog has its equipment, it CAN be bred. The titles, the health checks, the other stuff, just shows how dedicated you are as a person, and how much you care as a breeder/stud owner. It tells your puppy buyers that you’re committed, that you’ve done your homework, and that you believe in what you’re doing. It tells people that know/care, that you do the same, and it shows them that you’re someone that is worth giving a large check to because more than likely the puppy will be what you’re looking for. It also tells them your dog is capable of X, Y, Z without you having to tell them a bunch of stories about why you haven’t titled the dog.

There are tons of ways to get into breeding. What this forum questions is someone that owns a purebred GSD for the first time, does nothing, and thinks it should be bred because it’s a purebred. I think what most people will tell you, is that it’s all about gathering information and breeding once you have enough information (in the eyes of potential buyers) that you know what you’re doing. It’s possible to get that information (about the dogs/breed) without breeding. You can go through 4-5 dogs, training in IPO, or other venues, learning about the breed, without breeding. Then you get to a point where you know exactly what you want, you know what a good GSD is, and you find that GSD…and when you go through all the other fun stuff, you realize you can breed that dog, and you do. You breed because you want something for yourself, you want an exceptional dog and the best way to control/get that is to do it yourself…so you breed that bitch to a male you like because you think that mix will give you what you want. And then so on and so on…

People get called names when they don’t go through the information gathering phase…when it’s clear they’re breeding their pets, they don’t test their dogs for things that those of us that “know” care about, that’s when people question things. You don’t need to be “breeding” for decades to be considered producing good litters…you’ll see that many people are just considered good because they’ve been involved in the breed for so long, that it’s hard to question their knowledge and their decisions.


----------



## lhczth

Jack's Dad said:


> How would the dog generations translate into people years?
> 
> Lisa, Lee, how long before you developed a "type".



I have had 6 litters. I am currently working 2 dogs from my third generation and 1 from my 4th. When I bred my foundation bitch, Nike, it took until her 2nd litter to get my next dog. When I bred Vala it also took until my 2nd litter to get my next dog. With Deja I got my next dog in my first litter. I now know pretty well how my girls will produce. I don't breed a lot and finding suitable males is getting harder for me. As far as "type"........ when I bred to Javir a friend who knows that line very well commented that all of Javir's kids had a look that matched Javir except for my litter. My dogs look very much like my dogs. Even LB is a sable version of my dogs. Something that did help me with setting "type" was that I started with a female whose dam was very inbred. 

I started handling and training dogs in 1983 at 21 (I started training my own horses when I was 13). I am now 52 so 4 generations in 31 years. Scary. Of course I didn't have my first litter until 2003. 

Lala: It took me 15 years to find my foundation bitch. I owned some very good females before that, but since I always start with puppies, was still learning (I am not one to just jump into something and do it willy nilly) and looking for something specific I didn't breed any of those females. They were all breed suitable too. One was a SchH3. I know, though, long before a dog has its 1 if it is breed worthy. I won't waste my time on a dog that isn't suitable. My old dogs stay with me for life and a single person can only do justice to so many. I have culled about 6 females and sold them into homes more suitable for their temperaments and personalities. Anymore, I also know fairly young if a dog is going to be suitable so many don't even make it to a year of age. 1 was placed because her hips weren't good enough and 1 had missing teeth.


----------



## Shade

Personally I'd take pedigree over titles; I want to see the lineage and what each and every dog has done. If the dog has nothing but IPO3 in every dog in the 5 generation+ you have a great chance of a solid dog for most venues. No different than if you see OFA clearances of Good to Excellent, DM, thyroid, etc for the same amount, that's very impressive and again the chances of having a overall healthy dog is fantastic

No dog is perfect, but eliminating the big issues is a no brainer. I look at the breeder's resume as well, just as much as the dog's  That's in the pedigree and dog in front of you. If I see a breeder breeding unknowns that makes me eyebrow raise and not something I'm comfortable with


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> This is where I was going.
> 
> It seems that when these topics come up there is a stock forum answer.
> Like a slot machine that just keeps landing on the same numbers even though there may be thousands of possible combinations.
> 
> The thread was not intended to be about "forum breeders" but the responses to questions about breeders and who is good and who is not.
> 
> Some talked about the "standard". I think most of us agree about the need for a GSD standard but it's various incarnations are subject to interpretation.
> 
> It's kind of like the bible. Some interpret it literally, others more liberally and some don't believe in it at all.
> I have a feeling my view of the standard is different than Blitz's.
> I think Blitz believes a real GSD should be able to rip the door off of a moving vehicle.
> 
> My GSD has solid nerve, appropriate aggression, is healthy and does not terrorize the neighborhood but I don't much care how hard they can clamp down on a sleeve.
> 
> To RobK. I am not anti IPO at all. I just don't agree that it alone is a good judge of whether a dog will produce after itself.
> 
> Race horses are a good example. Champions are fairly well known for not necessarily producing well. The mares I have read are as important or even more so than the champion stud.


 
No Jack, you went to WLs the same as I did. If I recall correctly it was out of tested proven stock that in turn came from tested proven stock. SO are we really all that different in what we want?

Your trying to paint the options as a family dog or a junkyard dog. Again those arent the choices. 
There are numerous strong dogs that do IPO that also do all that stuff you talk about. Its no secret. 
Go see what AJ Singh does with Mac vd Kine in their off time or numerous other folks with top dogs. In the house with their kids/pets, at the cottage etc.

How about Hunter on here who has a Stud dog and most certainly does all the family stuff too? 

"These dogs could all figuratively rip the door of a school bus".

You dont care how your dog bites because its not important to you. Thats fine it really doesnt matter, the breeder that produced your dogs ancestors did care because they knew what you did not.

You and some others dismissively talk about dogs biting sleeves as if its a gimick and does not matter. This is ignorance, when you get out there and work dogs you quickly see the importance of how a dog hits and grips and the insight it can give you into the dogs nerve state.

Somewhat important for breeding perhaps? 

This may come as a shock but you can get a great heaping PILE of GSDs on a sleeve including the SLs :wub:! 

So if you want to talk about breeding dogs yes you better be willing to get real picky. 
Thats when we have to get objective and put all the emotions (so hard for some) aside and ask: "Who is this dog really?"

So when you and others speak disparagingly about IPO and its value to breeding then tout things like guide dog work, YES I will disagree.


Funny that at the end of the day you went to the same source that I did for your dog..

Fyi the only way you will discover if a dog will reproduce itself is breeding it. IPO can tell you if you should WANT to reprodce said animal. In many cases the answer will be a dissapointing NO.


----------



## huntergreen

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No Jack, you went to WLs the same as I did. If I recall correctly it was out of tested proven stock that in turn came from tested proven stock. SO are we really all that different in what we want?
> 
> Your trying to paint the options as a family dog or a junkyard dog. Again those arent the choices.
> There are numerous strong dogs that do IPO that also do all that stuff you talk about. Its no secret.
> Go see what AJ Singh does with Mac vd Kine in their off time or numerous other folks with top dogs. In the house with their kids/pets, at the cottage etc.
> 
> How about Hunter on here who has a Stud dog and most certainly does all the family stuff too?
> 
> "These dogs could all figuratively rip the door of a school bus".
> 
> You dont care how your dog bites because its not important to you. Thats fine it really doesnt matter, the breeder that produced your dogs ancestors did care because they knew what you did not.
> 
> You and some others dismissively talk about dogs biting sleeves as if its a gimick and does not matter. This is ignorance, when you get out there and work dogs you quickly see the importance of how a dog hits and grips and the insight it can give you into the dogs nerve state.
> 
> Somewhat important for breeding perhaps?
> 
> This may come as a shock but you can get a great heaping PILE of GSDs on a sleeve including the SLs :wub:!
> 
> So if you want to talk about breeding dogs yes you better be willing to get real picky.
> Thats when we have to get objective and put all the emotions (so hard for some) aside and ask: "Who is this dog really?"
> 
> So when you and others speak disparagingly about IPO and its value to breeding then tout things like guide dog work, YES I will disagree.
> 
> 
> Funny that at the end of the day you went to the same source that I did for your dog..
> 
> Fyi the only way you will discover if a dog will reproduce itself is breeding it. IPO can tell you if you should WANT to reprodce said animal. In many cases the answer will be a dissapointing NO.


good post!


----------



## lalachka

Liesje said:


> I don't know....last show I attended I saw an IPO3 male doing a breed survey and not engage on the long bite (which for this particular survey was more of a half length, back-uppy bite).
> 
> Lalachka, it depends on what problems are "big" to you. I've met IPO3 dogs that I would not want to own or buy puppies from because they do not have the skills or temperament that I personally am looking for. It's a free country so they can be bred for people that like that type of dog and I am free to abstain from buying their puppies or breed my own if I want to.


I have my list but this isn't about my preference. I'm wondering about breeders being objective to their own dogs. you said (along with others) that it's about the journey, not the title itself because you learn about the dog. 

you can only use that knowledge if you're willing to make tough choices. otherwise I can see people make excuses about their dogs' flaws. 

I think that's tough to do (or no?) and because of that I'm questioning whether people actually do it.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> I think that's tough to do (or no?) and because of that I'm questioning whether people actually do it.


Yes, people do it.

It’s really not that rare. The fact is, the world of IPO is very small, and the good dogs get known really quickly and the bad dogs get known really quickly. The sport is extremely local, and people know each other. A lot of people from the same area (I’m talking 2-3 hour drive radius from a club) train together, see each other’s dogs, and make their judgments of the dogs. People go to the club/regional trials and see the dog's performance. They're much more able to make a judgment about the dog than someone that just looks at the fact the dog has the title.

If a breeder isn’t ethical/moral enough to not breed a dog that is clearly not worth breeding, other people will know, and they’ll remember. At the end of the day, those people are the core group that a breeder sells to…and they’re the easiest ones to make sales to. If they don’t believe your dog should be bred, and you do, you won’t have customers. If you do it just to spite them, people will still remember that.


----------



## lalachka

lhczth said:


> Lala: It took me 15 years to find my foundation bitch. I owned some very good females before that, but since I always start with puppies, was still learning (I am not one to just jump into something and do it willy nilly) and looking for something specific I didn't breed any of those females. They were all breed suitable too. One was a SchH3. I know, though, long before a dog has its 1 if it is breed worthy. I won't waste my time on a dog that isn't suitable. My old dogs stay with me for life and a single person can only do justice to so many. I have culled about 6 females and sold them into homes more suitable for their temperaments and personalities. Anymore, I also know fairly young if a dog is going to be suitable so many don't even make it to a year of age. 1 was placed because her hips weren't good enough and 1 had missing teeth.


that sucks. then i have no chance to ever breed. I just don't have the time to learn all I need being that I'm 40. 

anyway. so if you can tell early on then why go through the stages? just so that your knowledge is proven to others?

how do you know early on? what do you look for? 

also, IF it's true that some sport requirements aren't what makes a best gsd (prey) then is it sometimes possible that you have a dog that you think is what this breed is about but you know he won't title? 
what do you do then? 

what's wrong with ipo anyway? I heard the criticism that since it's so rehearsed that some dogs will pass even though their nerves aren't the best. is that true? what else is wrong? like what would you change?


martemchik, do you really not understand what I meant by CAN?


----------



## carmspack

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_question was "Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?"

MY answer YES . Usually that would include the entire litter . Pruning ._

what's prunning?

and if you really did this then you have my respect. I know how hard that is to do and that's what integrity is to me 

Pruning is removing branches that don't contribute to health of the tree , or produce good fruit , or shaping to a design that you want .

Yes, honestly I do make those decisions - self-imposed .

One single dog from a litter has to be a fairly standard representation of the entire litter and his/her phenotype has to be a fairly standard representation of his/her genotype. No big differences .
Only then will you have predictability and uniformity .

What have I chosen to not go forward with -- two amazing males , the definition of stability , and beautiful conformation . Their nerves so good that they came out wagging when the furnace room had a bit of an explosion . I thought the worst had happened, almost tripped over their black little selves in the black sootiness of the room . They were waited for by a PD , kept checking in , testing etc . But at one point , both of them ended up with profound panosteitis . Laid flat . Both favoring the same limb for the same period . Looked like a choreographed dance pose . Every clear period everyone would get excited and the dogs were observed again -- only to fall into another lengthy down time .
I had them x rayed , clear all around - too young to certify . This would have been a pre purchase prelim for PD service --. I had them about 14 to 15 months . Warm social dogs with good drives and super confident . 
We chose to redirect their futures , not putting them into service because although they were in a period where there had been a relatively long period without being waylaid by pano , any injury in training or on the street , would have denied them being used for work . The pano was quite profound.
It is not something I think about because I don't have to worry about it, don't experience it and sure do not want to introduce it into the lines I have.
So the two black dogs were sold . 
I can track that the pano came from the sire , a recent import. The dam of that litter was very familiar to me through generations going backward , and she is a grand and great grandmother on current genetics - no pano before, no pano in any other combination.

Did a litter with "new" genetics -- the entire litter kept till about 8 months , to work and discover . Lots and lots of energy , bold , social dogs, real solid good looking dogs --- but a real pain to work -- that energy wasn't focused , superficial effort , not instinctive trackers, difficulty retaining skills , always needed to take a step back for a refresher , very sporty , flashy -- They were
properly placed where they were much appreciated but not for breeding for me .

Another dog bought , titles, pedigree top WGW and top Czech dam --- just an angry dog , almost uncontrollable aggression -- 

One combination didn't come up to expectations and then brother had one hip and one elbow with problems . So not used although my female was ofa'd good . 

One co-bred combination using my lines and "new" elements -- good dogs -- 2 PD's , comments were "malinois with brains" --- sound nerves , but not the iconic GSD type.
So I chose not to continue with this 

I've said this and given examples on other threads ,
where every one thinks it's about profit - a recent one comes to mind.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> Yes, people do it.
> 
> It’s really not that rare. The fact is, the world of IPO is very small, and the good dogs get known really quickly and the bad dogs get known really quickly. The sport is extremely local, and people know each other. A lot of people from the same area (I’m talking 2-3 hour drive radius from a club) train together, see each other’s dogs, and make their judgments of the dogs. People go to the club/regional trials and see the dog's performance. They're much more able to make a judgment about the dog than someone that just looks at the fact the dog has the title.
> 
> If a breeder isn’t ethical/moral enough to not breed a dog that is clearly not worth breeding, other people will know, and they’ll remember. At the end of the day, those people are the core group that a breeder sells to…and they’re the easiest ones to make sales to. If they don’t believe your dog should be bred, and you do, you won’t have customers. If you do it just to spite them, people will still remember that.


Lol good point. I didn't think about this. 
but many times people won't agree which dog is good and which isn't.


----------



## martemchik

lalachka said:


> Lol good point. I didn't think about this.
> but many times people won't agree which dog is good and which isn't.


But it doesn’t matter if everyone agrees. It just matters that enough people agree which are buying your puppies. And hopefully, those are “knowledgeable” people who know what they’re looking for and plan on doing something extra with those dogs. That way, those people spread the word, and others become interested, and so demand for a kennel grows and their reputation grows with it.

I think that’s the point…at a local level, there are a lot of good breeders that don’t exactly follow the rules this forum loves to throw around. There are also a lot that are producing good dogs, which if they were asked about on this forum, would get ripped for something that they don’t do…which is the difference between what REALLY happens and the picture this forum paints about breeding. The expectation here…is ridiculously high...


----------



## lalachka

carmspack said:


> but a real pain to work -- that energy wasn't focused , superficial effort , not instinctive trackers, difficulty retaining skills , always needed to take a step back for a refresher , very sporty , flashy -


Lol I'm not kissing up but I always feel the need to cheerlead when I see something I like. it's amazing how much you know

and the paragraph above captivated me. I LOVE it when I see dogs read like this. I can't even imagine the knowledge it takes to be able to put that in words. 

I always read your posts for snippets like above. 
actually, I think it was one of your posts that talked about the need to be able to look critically at your dogs and make tough decisions.


----------



## lalachka

martemchik said:


> But it doesn’t matter if everyone agrees. It just matters that enough people agree which are buying your puppies. And hopefully, those are “knowledgeable” people who know what they’re looking for and plan on doing something extra with those dogs. That way, those people spread the word, and others become interested, and so demand for a kennel grows and their reputation grows with it.
> 
> I think that’s the point…at a local level, there are a lot of good breeders that don’t exactly follow the rules this forum loves to throw around. There are also a lot that are producing good dogs, which if they were asked about on this forum, would get ripped for something that they don’t do…which is the difference between what REALLY happens and the picture this forum paints about breeding. The expectation here…is ridiculously high...


I meant knowledgeable people. I can imagine they can't come to agreements pretty often)))))

ok I'm sorry, I'm flooding a thread again, I'm stopping. 

it's just I have so many questions. this is so interesting to me. I wish there was someone here I can bug everyday lol. just go watch dogs and ask questions. conformation and temperament.


----------



## Jack's Dad

lhczth said:


> I have had 6 litters. I am currently working 2 dogs from my third generation and 1 from my 4th. When I bred my foundation bitch, Nike, it took until her 2nd litter to get my next dog. When I bred Vala it also took until my 2nd litter to get my next dog. With Deja I got my next dog in my first litter. I now know pretty well how my girls will produce. I don't breed a lot and finding suitable males is getting harder for me. As far as "type"........ when I bred to Javir a friend who knows that line very well commented that all of Javir's kids had a look that matched Javir except for my litter. My dogs look very much like my dogs. Even LB is a sable version of my dogs. Something that did help me with setting "type" was that I started with a female whose dam was very inbred.
> 
> I started handling and training dogs in 1983 at 21 (I started training my own horses when I was 13). I am now 52 so 4 generations in 31 years. Scary. Of course I didn't have my first litter until 2003.
> 
> Lala: It took me 15 years to find my foundation bitch. I owned some very good females before that, but since I always start with puppies, was still learning (I am not one to just jump into something and do it willy nilly) and looking for something specific I didn't breed any of those females. They were all breed suitable too. One was a SchH3. I know, though, long before a dog has its 1 if it is breed worthy. I won't waste my time on a dog that isn't suitable. My old dogs stay with me for life and a single person can only do justice to so many. I have culled about 6 females and sold them into homes more suitable for their temperaments and personalities. Anymore, I also know fairly young if a dog is going to be suitable so many don't even make it to a year of age. 1 was placed because her hips weren't good enough and 1 had missing teeth.


Thanks Lisa. This is very important to consider when looking for breeders.

Unfortunately it also indicates to me that the type of breeders recommended (small hobby breeders) will never be able to meet the demand for the 2nd most popular breed in the U.S.

This is probably why so many dogs are imported with titles. It simply takes too long unless it is just a labor of love.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> But it doesn’t matter if everyone agrees. It just matters that enough people agree which are buying your puppies. And hopefully, those are “knowledgeable” people who know what they’re looking for and plan on doing something extra with those dogs. That way, those people spread the word, and others become interested, and so demand for a kennel grows and their reputation grows with it.
> 
> *I think that’s the point…at a local level, there are a lot of good breeders that don’t exactly follow the rules this forum loves to throw around. There are also a lot that are producing good dogs, which if they were asked about on this forum, would get ripped for something that they don’t do…which is the difference between what REALLY happens and the picture this forum paints about breeding. The expectation here…is ridiculously high...*




Yep. The difference between the forum and real life.


----------



## Castlemaid

Jack's Dad said:


> [/B]
> 
> Yep. The difference between the forum and real life.


On the forum though, you learn that real life may not be what you want. 

As an example, my club had a member who is a breeder. From a general public's point of view, he seemed to be a knowledgeable, reputable, experienced, ethical breeder: had lots of experience HOT handling and titling dogs in many venues, including Schutzhund, IPO. Had a side business of behavioural counseling, and was recomended by local vets and the local SPCA. 

Only bred dogs that he titled himself, often earning high-in-trial scores and trophies. On the surface, this is a fantastic breeder. 

Once I got more involved, I began to see stuff that really bothered me.

He didn't really know lines - he would acquire a puppy for breeding, and would title him/her come **** or high water so he could declare the dog "breedworthy". Nevermind that the dog was all prey, no defense. Never mind that it took several tries then they just squeeked by with minimal scores. Never mind that the dog had a genetically weak and shallow bite - let's blame the bite on the helper, and the bite can be improved by breeding to a really really strong dog, right? (no - that is not how it works). 

Studs were either dogs he owned already (pups were aquired as breeding prospects without any real thought to pedigree), or he would seek out a well-known stud for the wow factor, and not consider how this dog would complement his bitches. If you asked him this question, he would act hurt and offended that one would actually question his knowledge.

Nevermind that his stud threw cryptochrids, and he still used him for breeding, even after he said he woulnd't use him anymore (one of the females came in heat, he didn't have an alternate stud lined up, so he used his own stud again - convenience, you know?). 

Never mind that when at IPO events if one of us who did NOT get a dog from him got compliments from the seminar leaders about our dogs, he would call us "lucky" that we got a good dog (er . . . no, we actually went to a breeder who KNEW what they were doing to get a 'good' dog.) 

Lots of other issues there, but the point is, that it takes a lot to see through such breeding practices when you are new to choosing a breeder. The board having high standards helps educate people about not settling for less, and understanding just what ethical and responsible means.


----------



## martemchik

Castlemaid...you're very right!

It's really nice to have both...the forum and real life. Which is what a lot of people need. You see through the BS on the forum because of real life, and the forum helps you see some BS in real life.

Unfortunately...there are some people that don't get to experience the real life stuff and think that everything should be like the forum says.


----------



## Liesje

lalachka said:


> I have my list but this isn't about my preference. I'm wondering about breeders being objective to their own dogs. you said (along with others) that it's about the journey, not the title itself because you learn about the dog.
> 
> you can only use that knowledge if you're willing to make tough choices. otherwise I can see people make excuses about their dogs' flaws.
> 
> I think that's tough to do (or no?) and because of that I'm questioning whether people actually do it.


Some do, some don't. Some make a choice that makes sense to them but not other people and vice versa.

I have a 10 month old male right now I've already decided is not breeding material. I have my own standards so it's not really tough for me to decide. It's not a disappointment either because I don't own dogs simply for producing more dogs, I own them as my companions and partners in sport or protection venues. My young dog is my next competition dog, but IMO he is not breedworthy.


----------



## Merciel

lalachka said:


> I meant knowledgeable people. I can imagine they can't come to agreements pretty often


I really don't think there's as much disagreement as you might be imagining.

I don't do IPO (yet!) but in the sports that I _do_ know, it is not hard to tell whether a dog is a good dog once you've developed an eye for it. It's not even that hard to separate the quality of training from the dog's intrinsic qualities, especially if you can watch the dog in training and not just at trials.

Where the differences of opinion come into play, IME, is in deciding whether a particular dog is a dog that _you would want_.

There are a lot of talented, driven, flashy, beautiful sport dogs (and here I am not talking about GSDs, fwiw) I've seen that I, personally, would not want. There are aspects of their personalities that I don't love, wouldn't want to live with, and wouldn't especially enjoy training. Not a knock on their quality, purely a matter of preference.

For example, I can see that a particular working Lab is a great dog, and everyone knowledgeable who sees that same dog would likewise agree that it's a great dog. But it doesn't mean I _want_ that dog.

I don't care for Labs. That's all there is to it.


----------



## selzer

Yes breeders prune. That's a must. 

But breeders need to have experience to know what to prune. If all that experience is with one dog, than it really doesn't give them much experience at all. 

Breeders have to breed to become experienced. A breeder who has bred 2 litters in 10 years is going to have less experience, they will have seen fewer puppies grow out, fewer puppy temperaments than a breeder who has bred 10 litters in 10 years. 

Breeders who are breeding for the future, who are raising their own pups, and training them, who are planning on breeding out of their lines and back into their lines, etc, with a plan, have to raise up bitches to breed with. 

People who have multiple bitches are better off with kennels, else if one decides she doesn't like another, decisions have to be made. One can keep multiple bitches that get along, but it isn't going to happen all the time. 

But if you have kennels, ew!!! a puppy mill! Because someone has a couple of bitches who hate kennels. I have to say, my dogs rarely have collars on, they can run around the living room with the nieces, and let the nieces out into their kennels, they can run in the field, or go to the park or training classes or whatever, but none of them have an aversion to their kennels. By the time I go to put them in their kennels, they have no collar or leash on them. So it is not like they are dragged there. They are perfectly happy to go to where they can relax, and what is normal. But I kind of feel differently than most here about crating dogs. My dogs don't hate them, and of course I have some, but I feel about crates the way Lee does about kennels. Poor dogs, couped up in a box all the time. Makes me right down angry. But not because the dogs hate them. It is because I place a human constraint onto my perception of them.


----------



## lhczth

lalachka said:


> that sucks. then i have no chance to ever breed. I just don't have the time to learn all I need being that I'm 40.


I am a bit unusual in the amount of knowledge I want before doing something. I also used to keep for life any puppy I bought no matter what. I have learned to let go and place those that won't make it. There is a chance for you, but you must get out there and start handling dogs. Learning does take time. 



> anyway. so if you can tell early on then why go through the stages? just so that your knowledge is proven to others?
> 
> how do you know early on? what do you look for?


 I no longer do. I won't title a dog that isn't breed worthy. I can't speak for others. I also do not breed to prove anything to other people, only to myself. 

The other question is best for another thread. 



> also, IF it's true that some sport requirements aren't what makes a best gsd (prey) then is it sometimes possible that you have a dog that you think is what this breed is about but you know he won't title?
> what do you do then?
> 
> what's wrong with ipo anyway? I heard the criticism that since it's so rehearsed that some dogs will pass even though their nerves aren't the best. is that true? what else is wrong? like what would you change?


 This definitely belongs in its own thread though we have all hashed this over and over. I will say that IPO/SchH is what you make of it. It is a tool. It is up to the breeder to make the decisions if their dog is suitable for breeding or not.


----------



## lalachka

lhczth said:


> I am a bit unusual in the amount of knowledge I want before doing something. I also used to keep for life any puppy I bought no matter what. I have learned to let go and place those that won't make it. There is a chance for you, but you must get out there and start handling dogs. Learning does take time.
> 
> I no longer do. I won't title a dog that isn't breed worthy. I can't speak for others. I also do not breed to prove anything to other people, only to myself.
> 
> The other question is best for another thread.
> 
> This definitely belongs in its own thread though we have all hashed this over and over. I will say that IPO/SchH is what you make of it. It is a tool. It is up to the breeder to make the decisions if their dog is suitable for breeding or not.


I meant if a dog is breedworthy and you know this at 1, so before titling. Then why do you go on to title?


----------



## lhczth

Why do I? Because I and the dogs enjoy it.  I may know they are breed worth early on. Doesn't mean I know everything about them. The training and work as they mature also tells me more about the dog so I can make wise and educated breeding decisions.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> I meant if a dog is breedworthy and you know this at 1, so before titling. Then why do you go on to title?


At 1 year old, the pup can be a superstar, and at two she can start having seizures. You can definitely say a dog is not breedworthy at 1 year, but determining if a dog is, is a little different. At one, you can certainly say, this dog can go all the way through training and get its titles, if you have the experience. But the experience with the dog, is most likely fun, and good for the dog. It should help to develop the dog, and help to make living with the dog an even more pleasurable experience. That's why I train mine. GSDs ought to be trained, they need to get out there, they need to have some experiences and learn new things, why not go for something in that process.


----------



## SuperG

Has a breeder of GSDs ever attempted to breed for the perfect companion/family pet?

Imagine a GSD which never landsharked, no reactivity or fear/aggression/dominance problems etc....a plug and play dog....soft-mouthed out of the chute...never forged on it's first walk...and as a bonus ...didn't shed. The breeder would sell a bazillion of those dogs....but then again...I suppose they would call it something other than a German Shepherd.


SuperG


----------



## lhczth

I could go for the non shedding GSD.


----------



## lalachka

lhczth said:


> Why do I? Because I and the dogs enjoy it.  I may know they are breed worth early on. Doesn't mean I know everything about them. The training and work as they mature also tells me more about the dog so I can make wise and educated breeding decisions.


got you. so you do learn about the dog. does it ever happen that you end up learning that the dog isn't breed worthy ?

I know this isn't for this thread but this thread is dying lol. 
maybe you can quickly say what you look for? if not then I can start a thread. I really want to know

ETA lol since things get twisted here sometimes. this isn't about my dog. he isn't breed worthy and doesn't have papers. I'm just curious.


----------



## lhczth

lalachka said:


> got you. so you do learn about the dog. does it ever happen that you end up learning that the dog isn't breed worthy ?
> 
> I know this isn't for this thread but this thread is dying lol.
> maybe you can quickly say what you look for? if not then I can start a thread. I really want to know


So far, no. 

Start a new thread down in the breeding area so I am not the only one answering.


----------



## lalachka

SuperG said:


> Has a breeder of GSDs ever attempted to breed for the perfect companion/family pet?
> 
> Imagine a GSD which never landsharked, no reactivity or fear/aggression/dominance problems etc....a plug and play dog....soft-mouthed out of the chute...never forged on it's first walk...and as a bonus ...didn't shed. The breeder would sell a bazillion of those dogs....but then again...I suppose they would call it something other than a German Shepherd.
> 
> 
> SuperG


boring
and not a gsd as you said)))))


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think your wrong .
> Were did I say they were supposed to serve one purpose?
> This word "VERSATILE" is often used as an excuse for a dog that is lacking or weak.


I believe you said a guide dog doesn't have the proper drive or temperament for a GSD...and I still disagree. I know what versatile means, thanks. 


Blitzkrieg1 said:


> How about just breeding them for that pretty white colour?


I think deciding what makes a dog a good breeding prospect is something that takes a very long time to understand and I don't have a problem admitting I don't have that kind of knowledge yet, but I do know that breeding for any one trait isn't right. That's why I have the dogs I have, they're a whole lot more than "just" white. They ARE pretty though. 


Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility. Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles..


Congratulations. Mine come from ancestry with multiple titles too, and they're easy to find in the dark. I win.


----------



## SuperG

Whiteshepherds said:


> Mine come from ancestry with multiple titles too, and they're easy to find in the dark. I win.


I strung some of these newfangled LED lights on my shepherd with a small solar panel...and I'm telling ya...I can spot her at night as easily as sliding off a greasy log backwards


superG


----------



## Castlemaid

> Congratulations. Mine come from ancestry with multiple titles too, and they're easy to find in the dark. I win.


LOL, good one!!! But up here, your dogs would pretty much be invisible for a good seven months out of 12.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Castlemaid said:


> LOL, good one!!! But up here, your dogs would pretty much be invisible for a good seven months out of 12.


I'd have to borrow those LED's from SuperG!


----------



## Nyx

Long time lurker, rare poster-

Hi all I have not read every reply in the thread, I got 5 pages in and was like -"whoa I feel this." Yeah I am an individual who holds strong opinions and I tend to voice them in ways that are not always- politically correct.

I found the site years ago and I mainly enjoy reading the forums. I look for help when I can't find a thread already discussing my area of interest or need. And I offer my experiences as a new owner and lover of my fur-bae's. I am VERY passionate about my babies and being a better alpha to my pack.

But I do feel what Jack's Dad and others mention. Many times I find a thread with a topic I want to learn more of, and it is side railed by posts that have nothing positive to add to the discussion or out-n-out belittle the OP because "they should know better" or what ever excuse you want to use to rant about that topic.

And I know that there will always be a separation in "papered" and "pet-quality" animals. It exists in the horse world, it exists in the dog world and it will continue to exist in any ownership of animals that have Associations for pedigree's and competitions. 

Yes the breeders and competitors are the most knowledgeable about the breed and/or sports they participate in. But if you want to use the "breed standard" and your personal interpretation of that to justify your beliefs- then you need to remember that today's GSD is little like the founding dogs of the breed. 

If you saw the Sire of the breed or numerous Bitches that were used to modify the attributes of the breed, most of you would call it the worst looking GSD you have ever seen- and not "breed" worthy. 

And those of you toting that your dogs have been judged repeatedly need to pull the stuffing out of your heads, because no judge is a specialist in ONE breed. They interpret the "Breed/working Standard" in their own way and pick which ever dog they think fits their personal interpretation of that "breed/working standard".

I know that in any breeding program and every litter you will have good get and you will have lesser get. Every offspring will have its own capabilities or lack there of. And to HONESTLY say any animal is great just because it came from or is by so and so; is ridiculous. 

And finally in my rant, if the Associations and Kennel clubs really want to get rid of non-papered animals then those clubs, their members and associates need to be utterly vigilant in transferring papers with the sale of their dogs. If you want to sell a dog with limited papers then you make **** sure it gets fixed. Don't price a dog X and when a buyer comes to look/purchase make the papers Y. 

And for the love of all that is holy, price animals accordingly to their temperament and capabilities in the field they are bred for. If you have a "potato" sell it at that price, if you have a "show stopper" make your money there. Just because you imported your sire/bitch doesn't mean that your expenses need to be carried over on the worst puppy in your litter. 

I think I rambled a little over much. Arrg.


----------



## jschrest

I've been on this forum for a little under 3 weeks, and have to say I'm amazed by the outpouring of support and advice I've been given. I have a rescue, who has a very shady background, and haven't once felt like I was treated poorly because of that. Sure, some posts/comments go right over my head due to lack of knowledge, but I haven't felt lessor of a person or owner because my GSD doesn't have a pedigree.

And it's also giving me something to look into. I find the talk about lines and bite work and IPO very interesting, even though my GSD will probably never do any of it. I happen to love the breed, and the more info I learn, the more I fall in love, and know what to look for when I get my next a few years down the line. 

Just my personal experience from what I've found being here. I'm very happy I joined!!


----------



## selzer

Wow, I guess we all can have different perceptions of the same thing, but a dog is a dog with a tail or without one, with pointy ears or floppy, with a long coat or short. We wouldn't be on this site if we did not love our breed, and there are a variety of reasons to love them, but many, probably most of the members have other breeds or mongrels that are loved as much and get the same food, the same treats, the same toys, are trained and treated like their purebred brothers, whether those dogs have papers or not. 

Some may have a pet and another pet that was obtained because they wanted to persue a dog sport or had some type of job that they needed a different dog for, but I just don't get the impression that people on this site are snooty when it comes to whether a dog is purebred or not or whether the dog has papers or not, or whether the dog is the lines they prefer. 

The one exception that people can err in how they perceive the people here is on the breeding sections. A pet owner hears that their dog is not breed-worthy and gets their dander up. What the pet owner does not understand is that breeders look at every dog, every dog that they produced, every dog they own, and they make that decision. And the best breeders scratch the majority of the dogs and do not use them for breeding. It does not mean these dogs are sold as scrap or put down. Some, are sold or rehomed as pets, certainly. But the dogs that a breeder holds back in hopes of being able to use them in their program are usually awesome dogs and they fall out for something, usually minor. A pet owner gets a great pet for something that is basically not a problem or even noticeable to most people.

For breeders to discount a dog from breeding due to lack of papers is a no-brainer. A breeder can be certain that an adult dog that matches the breed standard fairly well is pure-bred, but they cannot know that a dog in its recent history or dog that is back massed in it isn't either closely related to whomever they might breed the dog to, or has a dog back there that is very likely to produce one or more serious issues when bred to your bitch. Why in the world would anyone deliberately breed to a dog that has no registration papers? 

The other reasons not to breed to a dog, why a dog might not be breed-worthy, over-sized dogs, white dogs, etc, well, we might love these dogs, but if we want to adhere to the standard we won't breed them. It only reduces the dogs value as a breeding prospect, not as a dog, who is beautiful and loveable, smart, worthy of attention, worthy of excellent care and concern when ailing. 

I guess if members are going to take offense at the premise that some dogs aren't breedworthy for specific reasons, so much so that they are turned off of this site, it is unfortunate for them. But, there is a point when you are throwing away the baby with the bathwater. In an effort not to offend anyone, we shouldn't sacrifice the breed we all love, should we?


----------

