# Kicked off the Farmers Market - Follow up on Watertowns Dog Ban



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Remember the dog ban from Watertown, NY that went into effect and that I was told that my dogs are exempt and that I can take them to work them there because Indra is also the dog that does our presentations? 

Well guess what. Four people called the cops on me. I was yelled at, despite Nala and Indra wearing their vests (I worked them individually) so I went to the Dog Control which was on Scene presenting pictures of the adoptable dogs and Dog Control said: "Yes, she can be there, she is displaying that they are search dogs, she is on a team, they are working service dogs, she is allowed to be there." 

Well, THAN we got joined by a cop. He took down my name, address, phone number, name of the dog and asked questions. He went away to come back with the City Law WITH ANOTHER COP, and said I had to leave because my dog is with the Oswego County SAR Team and not registered as a working Service Dog with the City of Watertown and therefor I'm not exempt by the law. 
I asked if the State Law wasn't above the City Law and he said no. 
It went so far that somebody called a reporter and he took me on the side. It was the same reporter that reported about the whole issue before and I was TOLD that we were exempt from all of this and that I can work/train my dogs at these events, here it is: Watertown Daily Times | City police chief backs dog ban

Last weekend I took them to the Watertown fair, they wore their vests, I walked by the cops, even ran into the Mayor itself... but apparently it was a County Fair so the City law doesn't apply to it and I was allowed to bring my dogs. 

So now what. I can't use any of the public places anymore. We do a lot of search training at the Thompson Park, a lot of search training out at the lake and the City Hall seriously told me to go somewhere else, well knowing that I can't. They literally said "Go outside City Limits" and basically kicked us out of the City. I am no longer allowed to work my dogs unless I get an exception from the Mayor or City Manager itself which the cops said wouldn't happen because they worry about liability. 

So, which law applies? State? County or City Law? Is the City law really above the State law?


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Sounds like it's time to move.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ugh. This is becoming a ...never mind.
That sucks.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Inside the city limits, yes. The city laws can't take away/ignore the state or county laws, but it can add to them.

Example, state X doesn't ban Y breed, county X limits ownership of breed Y with conditions, city X completely bans breed Y.

It can get confusing especially when you have small multiple city/towns in one county.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well....see the humor in it...how many people can say they got thrown out of the Farmer's Market?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Talking with the City Manager right now. It looks like we can actually work this out. Hopefully.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay, long talk with the city manager. 

Apparently I'm breaking the leash law whenever I conduct any Area Search Training within the City limits and I was asked to no longer do any Search Training. The Market Manager said that my dog acted very suspicious and snapped after me. I had to hold myself back to not burst out laughing. I used the food hand and she drove into my hand to take the food out of it. THIS is how general people and the public perceives actual training.

Now she is trying to look into it if I can take them if they are muzzled. 

This is becoming a mess. A very bad mess and now I'm put in the spotlight and they are aware that I've been "breaking the law" which we should be exempt from in the first place, for over a year. They want to muzzle my dogs for public events and I can't do any search training in my own hometown anymore...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope you get it worked out. 

I got thrown out of the county fair with a puppy once, lol!

I also got thrown out of church, twice. But no dog in those stories, so I will just leave it at that. 

I got thrown out of the sherriff's department parking lot, which is county property, used as a parking lot for the bar, serves the county courthouse and jail, and is a public lot, and is not fenced in. I stamped my feet and called and said I wanted to talk to the sheriff and a Lt. listened, and said that I could indeed train my dogs there. I like it because it is well-lighted and totally empty at night, and the back part is fenced 3/4s. But now I am pretty chicken to work there. If some yayhoo does decide he have grounds to arrest me, what will happen to my girl? It is just not worth it.

I was almost thrown out of Lowe's. The deputy was talking to me about the puppy who was being awesome, and then went over to the cashier and asked if I was allowed to have the dog there. She said yes, and he said Really? 

Well, I had asked before coming in, but a few months later some guy back in fixtures asked if the dog was a service dog, I said it is a puppy, no it is not a service dog. And he informed me that only service dogs are allowed. So I searched the front of the store, and found behind a bunch of fencing a sign that said service dogs welcome. So I don't go there anymore either. 

I really don't search out places where I am not allowed, but I keep finding them anyhow. 

Your dogs have good nerve so I am sure they can do their jobs whether you take them everywhere now or not. But I still hope it works out so you can take the dog and train them wherever.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Okay, long talk with the city manager.
> 
> Apparently I'm breaking the leash law whenever I conduct any Area Search Training within the City limits and I was asked to no longer do any Search Training. The Market Manager said that my dog acted very suspicious and snapped after me. I had to hold myself back to not burst out laughing. I used the food hand and she drove into my hand to take the food out of it. THIS is how general people and the public perceives actual training.
> 
> ...



What you need to do is kidnap the city manager, drag him out in the woods and tie him to a tree, and tell him that you hope search dogs can find him before he starves to death, but that if they have to be on-leash that is unlikely to happen.

ETA: In all seriousness, I like the Ohio law that requires a leash in the state of Ohio, but it also says under full control, so we can work off lead, as long as the dog is under control. 

Are you in NY? Isn't the GSD the NY state dog? What a way to treat search dogs, after what they did in NY.

I guess I am just assuming NY for some reason.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I have very limited resources in my area. To get quality training I have to drive three hours. I can't just drive three hours after work somewhere else and then come back at one in the morning. So for motivational searches we go to the Thompson park. I specifically ASKED the police, counsel and the Mayor himself IF I can take my dogs for search training there. And they all said yes! 

I'm doing it for over a year. All over Watertown and now I'm told that I can't do any search training in my own hometown anymore because of the leash law. 

That I might have to muzzle my dogs even though they've never been deemed as dangerous because we go to public events. 

I know they have great nerves but how the heck am I going to train an Area Search Dog if I can't take them off the leash? In our State they are supposed to range. To even work out of sight (I know it's a controversy) but I don't think they really understand WHAT our needs are. 

If they don't want me to train within the city, fine, I will abide "their" law and I will work with them, no matter how ridiculous the situation is. I think playing nice might get me further than anything else. I just can't believe this is happening. 

She asked if I am the only search dog trainer in this area. Yes I am. To my knowledge I am the ONLY one in Watertown. Right now I'm the only active person on the team. We were three, right now it's JUST me... 

If they take everything away from me, I'm already limited...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> What you need to do is kidnap the city manager, drag him out in the woods and tie him to a tree, and tell him that you hope search dogs can find him before he starves to death, but that if they have to be on-leash that is unlikely to happen.
> 
> ETA: In all seriousness, I like the Ohio law that requires a leash in the state of Ohio, but it also says under full control, so we can work off lead, as long as the dog is under control.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are in the State of NY.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Typically SAR dogs are granted no more access than pet dogs pretty much anywhere in the US. We get special permission for training in some areas with public access but some are off limits (some state parks allow some do not). They are not afforded the same access as service animals or police dogs (even though the odds are the SAR dog is the LAST dog you would worry about doing damage)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you need to make the reporter-dude your best friend, and have them give some negative press to the city policy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

This is what the law says:

There shall be excluded from this Subsection C any owner of a dog which is definded under Section 108 of the New York Agriculutur and Market Law, as the same may be amended from time to time, as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, working search dog, therapy dog, detection dog, war dog, *or any other dog* *which may be utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City*, or which are professionally trained service animals utilized by persons with disabilities. 

The bolded part is why they kicked me out. They said they are not utilizing us so we can't be there. HOWEVER this is NOT how I'm reading it. They literally read into it what they wanted to read into it. 
Their interpretation is completely wrong, IF I'm not getting it wrong myself. The law said we are excluded from the ban just like any other dog that may be utilized.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

The "may be utilized" means that the actual tasks aren't limited to what is specifically named in the law. It doesn't mean "any dog that could sometime in the future be used" I would still assume that the dog is only exempt WHILE it is working however.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> This is what the law says:
> 
> There shall be excluded from this Subsection C any owner of a dog which is definded under Section 108 of the New York Agriculutur and Market Law, as the same may be amended from time to time, as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, *working search dog*, therapy dog, detection dog, war dog, *or any other dog* *which may be utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City*, or which are professionally trained service animals utilized by persons with disabilities.
> 
> ...


I added a little bolding. The way the law is written it does sound like you are not allowed. I think that you can interpret this as a working search dog as being a dog certified to perform search and rescue activities, or you can interpret it as a dog that is currently performing an actual search. 

Because they qualified the search dog as working, the any other might not apply. 

Got to love legal e's.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, it really looks like the Reporter is helping me with the whole situation. He was very shocked when he heard that I was told to go outside City limits for Search Training. He talked to the City Attorney for me and gave me a heads up that the City Attorney said that the police did the right thing and then he asked me why I went there in the first place and I told him that I honestly believed, after being told over and over that I do can take my dogs there for training purposes, since that was the one thing I am most concerned about, to the Market and any event, that I really didn't think any of it. 

That I do not want to cause a rift between the city and sar, that I want to work this out together and that I simply wish to have more support from the overall community. 

We have three K9 Members, two are inactive, that leaves me alone. If they take any and all resources away from me, where I can't even do the most basic search training with Nala or Indra anymore, I might as well quit! 
I'm not getting paid to do this, times are rough. So I'm trying to work within the limits I have. 

All I'm doing right now is driving, driving, driving, driving and more driving. There is nobody else that is doing it. I'm the only one. I don't want money, I don't want to be in the spotlight, all I want is being able to work my dogs the way I've worked them *BEFORE *the ban went into place.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, the way I see it the leash law has been around a long time and to violate it you need to ask permission. Everytime we train at a state park (some allow some don't) we ask permission and thank them, but never presume permission. So we have been allowed to train in places requiring leashes but only with expressed permission and never with an assumption that the next park manager will abide by the agreement.

For the public events, I am not sure I see the issue. It is not like you would be deploying a non scent specific air scent dog at a fairgrounds, or other place with crowds of people. I would just drop that one.

I don't think Watertown is such a big town that you can't find some place outside of the city limits to train? Maybe you could make friends with a local nursing home or train at county schoolgrounds, both of which often have significant properties. What about that river? Is that a greenway? What about private landowners? State Parks Lands?

We have been allowed offlead training in a local small town after much time spent training with their police department, letting them put drugs on our cars, hiding for their dogs etc. (haha only a few of our members hide for THEIR dogs)

I guess because we don't assume community support we realize it is not the norm.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would worry that challenging the city would bring unwanted attention to your team resulting in the local police not wanting to use you in the event they need the support for a search. My understanding is police departments need to absolutely trust the SAR team, not to speak to the media, etc.

I don't understand the need to train at a Farmers Market.

Perhaps I'm clueless....


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

please, please, pm me and tell me why you were thrown out
of church twice. i'm laughing already. 



selzer said:


> I hope you get it worked out.
> 
> I got thrown out of the county fair with a puppy once, lol!
> 
> >>>>> I also got thrown out of church, twice. But no dog in those stories, so I will just leave it at that. <<<<<


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Is there a reason why the local law enforcement won't give you a letter stating you are an active SAR dog? (or) Obtain a certification from NAPWDA or one of the other organizations that show you are a certified SAR dog team. 

DFrost


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The other's interpretation of the law is correct, that sentence means the dog must be in use by the law enforcement to be there. It would be a pretty easy way to get around the law and be able to bring a puppy anywhere someone wanted if they could just say "well maybe one day in the future it will be a SAR dog and so it can be here." Sadly, this is one of those laws that only gets brought up when someone has a problem with your dog being there. Most police officers, probably wouldn't have said anything to you, but because people complained they police had to enforce the law.

I know this isn't the same but...we have county parks where your dog should be on leash (there are even signs posted before you enter the trails) and in general people allow their dogs to run off leash there. Its a wooded area, and dogs generally run in the woods and stay off the trail. I've never had a problem there, until this week when a lady got all angry that my dog and another dog were off leash. She threatened to call the police, but the nice part about living in Milwaukee is that the police have better things to do than deal with people that have their perfectly friendly dogs off leash. If one was there? I'm sure he'd say something, but no one is going to send a squad car out to a park (where who knows how they would even find me) just to tell me my dog should be on leash.

Why did your city ban all dogs in public places anyways? Were there that many issues with dogs there?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

wait...this is not a certified SAR dog?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

DFrost, good idea. However, the way that the law is written, her dog still wouldn't be allowed unless it is actually working at that moment. Would it stop most people from saying something, probably. But the root of the problem is still there - the dog is only allowed on city property when it is being utilized.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I read the law and it seems to me that dogs are still allowed on no longer than an 8 foot lead in public places.

The addition to the law was banning dogs from pulicly approved EVENTS and within 20 feet of pool or playground because a child was badly bitten. Whether or not you agree, that is the law which was enacted. The leash law is older than Mrs K.

It would be wonderful if our dogs were allowed more places but, truth is, irresponsible dog owners have forced limits other dog owners just like everything else. 

Reasonable accomodations should be made for the training of search dogs but this clearly has to be agreed upon by both parties. The press being involved is probably NOT a good thing, JMO.

http://www.ecode360.com/10496331


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

She has her first certification down out of five. She is not fully operational yet but that doesn't matter. She is in training and on an official team. We do get to train off leash and were always told by the police that we had access to the parks and excluded from the law. 

If ANYONE had ever told me, from the VERY beginning, that this would happen, I would have NEVER went there in the first place. I was told BY THE OFFICIALS ITSELF that I was allowed to be there, that I AM ALLOWED to train my dogs at ANY city property for SAR (meaning OFF LEASH). 

I was told BEFORE the ban went into place, that we are in fact excluded and I could take my dogs to the Market and the Fair for exposure. 

In fact I went to the fair and it was an awesome training session, I even ran into the Mayor. The Mayor himself never said anythig about the dog being present since she wore her insignia. The Police walked by never said a word and yesterday I found out that we shouldn't have been there. 
However, it does look like even the Mayor thought we are allowed by law to be there. 

The problem is, with State, County, City Law...there is so much confusion going on and it WAS a knee jerk reaction. The law was put into place within a couple of months. I was relieved when I was told we were excluded but now the exact thing happened I was worried about from the very beginning! 

So who am I going to follow? The police that said I am allowed to train my dogs within city limits? The City Manager that says she doesn't want me to? Dog Control who actually believed themselves that I am allowed at the market? 

And all of a sudden I'm the bad guy? I only did what I was told I was allowed to do and when we are in public I am always respectful towards the public. Thanks but no thanks!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And as for the news being involved. They were involved from the beginning this Ban was put into place and I voiced my concerns. I talked to my Coordinator about it, he was okay with it. It was happening from the beginning that I was advocating for the SAR dogs and we were told that we were excluded and now that I actually did take them, we got kicked off. So yes, the news got involved again because the City did not hold it's word. 
Right after this happened I did call my Coordinator, he knows what is going on.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok, I thought Indra was the only dog targeted for SAR. Are you working Nala too?

I would lay low. FIgure out what you honestly need and try to fill that need best on private property. We usually have to provide documentation from our team insurance and sign statements about liability. It looks like a lot of open land and park lands that are not at all far from you. Sometimes we get after hours access when the gates are closed to the public.

Forget going to the farmers market and public events. This looks like you can still do tables at Walmarts, or outside grocery stores etc. If you need to do demos you can still do them on private properties with permission of the owner. 

They reacted because a people (aka constituents) complained, probably folks ticked off about not being able to bring their own dogs. They were called on their own, albiet, unpopular law and decided that they need to do what they say they are doing. If you can be understanding of THEIR situation, it may help you with your own.

Let it die down awhile. Then specify areas of the park you would like to train if you can't work something else out and explain, with your leadership why that specific property is important for your training. Discuss liability for the dog while in those areas. Come up with training times when you are not likely to encounter children. 

That is what I would do.

I still don't understand why you cant go elsewhere-maybe if you were in a big city surrounded by other city limits but it looks like that town is almost in the middle of nowhere . I live in a town outside a pretty large city where dogs are not even ALLOWED onlead at the major public park, relegating us on lead to another park full of disc golfers. ..........Somehow we are able to find training areas.


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## Psychedelic Shepherd (Jun 11, 2012)

Wait until there's a missing child in your city... I bet they rethink the whole situation.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Wow, 105 stitches in that little boy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Psychedelic Shepherd said:


> Wait until there's a missing child in your city... I bet they rethink the whole situation.


If there is a missing child in the city then EVERYONE and their brother will be out looking for them. Unless the dog works with a scent article it will find everyone and be pretty useless and I am pretty sure NY State SAR dogs are not scent discriminitory.

IF the dog works with a scent article the situation is still horrendous because of all the people.....That is just the way searches work for little kids. It is a stronger argument to work an on lead trailing dog through a crowded venue than an air scent dog.


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## Psychedelic Shepherd (Jun 11, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> If there is a missing child in the city then EVERYONE and their brother will be out looking for them. Unless the dog works with a scent article it will find everyone and be pretty useless and I am pretty sure NY State SAR dogs are not scent discriminitory.
> 
> IF the dog works with a scent article the situation is still horrendous because of all the people.....That is just the way searches work for little kids. It is a stronger argument to work an on lead trailing dog through a crowded venue than an air scent dog.


Good point. Bottom line is, there will come a day when the city might need those dogs and they won't have the training to do the job.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Because we only have one car, Nancy. Once my husband is back in two months, I am once more stuck in Watertown and that is why I am so dependent on the City Property. Plus, I have only ONE HELPER in this area. That's it! No more... we don't even have K9 Team training with our own team anymore. I'm driving almost three hours to a different team now, at the weekends but I have got to be able to work them through the week too. 
Up until this incident, there were no issues at all. Since that bite, the whole city lives in fear... in August it's been a year since that happened and they are acting completely irrational as if every dog was going to lash out and bite. I've never even experienced anything like that before. They literally treat every dog like it's a dangerous beast out there to kill now. 

I was told that I may want to MUZZLE my dogs when I take them to public places... there is NO LAW that requires me to do that. As if they were monsters... 

I'll find a way to work them.... somehow, this all will work out and fall into place.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Probably the downside of living in a small town, in a large city, although we have more laws, we usually don't get bans on things like dogs because too many people have dogs and come out to voice their opinions. A while ago a city about 45 minutes north wanted to ban Pit Bulls after an attack, everyone and their mother came out to voice their opinion and the law was shut down before anyone even knew what happened. I'm really surprised that your town was able to pass this, but if there is such a fear of dogs its quite sad. Instead of teaching the rest of the people about responsible ownership, now everyone is scared. Whenever I see a child scared of a dog, I try to get them to come over and pet mine and show them its okay and that many dogs are very friendly. I find it interesting when parents are so scared that they pass that fear onto their kids, many times the fear is irrational but they couldn't care less.

Sounds like your dogs would be perfect to get the town over this fear, but the law just won't allow it. This is a horrible situation for the future of this town and everyone in it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To be honest, none of this is surprising. Many areas of the US are like this (or worse)...just not at all dog-friendly. My dogs are on 4' leads in public. By public I mean city space, like normal sidewalks and city parks. Training we do on private property, mostly schools and churches. Unless we're going somewhere outdoors, like an ice cream stand, my dogs never accomany me inside any business other than the pet store or the vet.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Unfortunately it is the way things go. EVERYONE gets punished because one or two people are not responsible. THEN the ones who won't follow the laws are still not following them while the law abiding citizens suffer. 

Kind of like the spay/neuter laws, breed restrictions etc. I fear that until people are actually held accountable for their actions (and those of their dogs, kids, etc.) silly laws will be encacted to bandaid society

---

I get the one car thing. I was there when my kids were little and my husband relied on the car for work (he was outside sales). I first wanted to do SAR in 1987 when I met some SAR people while doing weekend AKC tracking and again at my daughter's school, but the reality was I did not get started until 1999. It bites not having money. Too bad we can't retire when we are young and work when we are old (though the way things look we will wind up working until we are dead anyway....)


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> To be honest, none of this is surprising. Many areas of the US are like this (or worse)...just not at all dog-friendly. My dogs are on 4' leads in public. By public I mean city space, like normal sidewalks and city parks. Training we do on private property, mostly schools and churches. Unless we're going somewhere outdoors, like an ice cream stand, my dogs never accomany me inside any business other than the pet store or the vet.


Well that's what I mean, I never expect to go into a business with my dog, but outside, to a city event, no question I can bring him there (unless its a festival you have to pay for). Most places are very accommodating and don't mind at all if the dog is there (as long as he's well behaved). Unless a festival or event strictly prohibits dogs, you can usually bring your dog (on leash of course).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Well that's what I mean, I never expect to go into a business with my dog, but outside, to a city event, no question I can bring him there (unless its a festival you have to pay for). Most places are very accommodating and don't mind at all if the dog is there (as long as he's well behaved). Unless a festival or event strictly prohibits dogs, you can usually bring your dog (on leash of course).


That is how it is here. For now. Someday someone will get bitten and there will be a stink, and then they will get banned.

Unfortunately, there is a reason why SAR teams ask for your financial health. It costs a lot of money from before go. Everything is paid for by the volunteer. And the team does put a lot into the training of a SAR dog/handler team, to have them drop out because they cannot meet financial commitments. 

It really should not cost all that much to drive out of the city onto county property, like the fair grounds, and public hunting areas (off season or with a bright orange vest). I would think you would have to train in such places anyway.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The problem with that is that a lot of it is private property. The Black River trail is open to the County, however it is right between a private property and the Black River. The Property is off limits and the trail itself is not a good place to work your dogs because it's very steep and the River far too dangerous as if I would risk my dogs to go int there at that point. It's a great place for Trailing Dogs though. 

The spot on the River, where I take my dogs to go into the water is right outside a neighborhood in the Town of Wilna and above is a busy highway. Except for that one part, I believe, it's all private Property. 

Other places are way to populated on top of it because of re-creation. I went to the Thousand Islands and we had training there in one of the State Parks but there I have to be careful not to disturb the campers. 

Our main training area is off limits during summer because it too is a camping ground. The parks are all heavily populated, lots of dogs, horses etc. 

Those few places I can use, that aren't populated are off limiits too now.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that's the hardest part for me to grasp, the sheer size of your training area. I've started tracking, but even that doesn't need that much room, a good football sized field is good for that, not sure what kind of room you need for SAR but I imagine it's not small. I'm surprised you can't find any county or state parks within a 30 minute drive, although many of those do like to have your dog on leash, in my area its not very enforced. I can't lie, I've never lived in a small town, and around the cities I've lived in, there was always a forest preserve or a large county park that I could take him to for training or just for fun.

The whole area just doesn't sound like it is very dog friendly. I guess its something that the area never quite developed, and this new law was just an extension of previous thoughts about dogs. I'm not sure when dog parks developed in my area, but it's pretty recent, and there are now almost 10 of them all over the county due to a group that pushed for it. Although some of the smaller city (suburb) parks don't allow dogs, the county parks are all dog friendly (on leash) and like I've said, most won't even bother with that as long as the dog is well behaved.

It sucks that someone that is trying to help the area with her dogs is getting shut down like this. I wouldn't even want to think what they would do to someone that is training in Schutzhund. I'm guessing the area itself is the reason why your closest training group is 3 hours away, it's just never been set up to be dog friendly to anyone and this recent bite just gave them a reason to make it official.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What about public hunting areas? Most of the spring and summer is off season for everything. So why not use that? Those are usually state owned and people use dogs for hunting, but I would expect they would be rather empty and lots of room.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

martemchik said:


> IIt sucks that someone that is trying to help the area with her dogs is getting shut down like this. I wouldn't even want to think what they would do to someone that is training in Schutzhund. I'm guessing the area itself is the reason why your closest training group is 3 hours away, it's just never been set up to be dog friendly to anyone and this recent bite just gave them a reason to make it official.


It is not unusual to have to drive 3 hours or more for SAR training. There is not enough demand to really justify groups in every community and the commitment (time and money) is too high for most when they realize they may only get a very few calls. It is very common to make those drives on the weekends and train around your own area with friends or nearby teammates during the week. Not having any teamates working dogs anymore makes it very hard for Mrs K.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, it does make it hard. I have one helper in Watertown. That's it. 
Otherwise I have no one else to train with during the week, which might have just changed, however. 

Last year there was an Agility Seminar with Terry Brown in Watertown I attended. I had not met him before but he seemed to be really good in what he does. From my understanding he is also an AKC Judge? 
Anyhow, he's involved with tracking and Trailing and he just joined the Team that actually held the SAR Academy and we went through the Academy together. He knows the area up around Syracuse best and we'll get together this Sunday in the Three River Area. I told him about what happened and he said that it does seem very very restrictive of what is going on but that it is a good heads up about the things happening. 

Especially the muzzling part is a bit restrictive. Since he wants to get out more and work on the trailing and my next two certifications are coming up (moving subject and night search) we decided to stay away from Watertown as far as possible and train where we are actually welcome and where our search teams generally conduct the ground pounding team trainings.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That sounds promising - now to figure out a way to get a 2nd car.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Already saving for that and hopefully I can get enough money together by November. If we meet up for training during the week I might just have to drive my husband to work and then take the car. 

The mayor of the city wrote a comment and I was quite shocked about the responses. He said I "claimed" to do SAR and apparently that lead people to believe that I'm only saying but not doing it which resulted in some really hateful responses from "Should have been arrested" to "The dogs should be taken away." 

There is no way that I will ever get an exception from the ordinance so I'm not even going to try to challenge him. I will continue to write about what it takes to do SAR and what all is actually involved to raise awareness but challenging? Nope! Not going to happen. He is already set on it so I'm not even going to go to City Hall trying to get the Exemption. 

It's just not worth it. If he thinks that way about SAR already and that we are "phony" than I will just leave it at that and proof him otherwise through action instead of fighting him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Already saving for that and hopefully I can get enough money together by November. If we meet up for training during the week I might just have to drive my husband to work and then take the car.
> 
> The mayor of the city wrote a comment and I was quite shocked about the responses. He said I "claimed" to do SAR and apparently that lead people to believe that I'm only saying but not doing it which resulted in some really hateful responses from "Should have been arrested" to "The dogs should be taken away."
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen the pit and the pendulum? This guy would be an awesome subject. Set the pendulum going and tell him that really well-trained search dogs should be able to find him in time... He sounds like such an idiot. Unfortunately people do lie about what their dogs do to get special privileges for them, and people suffer.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Have you ever seen the pit and the pendulum? This guy would be an awesome subject. Set the pendulum going and tell him that really well-trained search dogs should be able to find him in time... He sounds like such an idiot. Unfortunately people do lie about what their dogs do to get special privileges for them, and people suffer.


Yeah, but I'm not one of them. However, he publicly made that comment. He doesn't want dogs, no matter what kind of dogs. He didn't even have all the details, he never even talked to me before he made that comment, he just made it and implied that I am one of those people. 

What is really getting to me is that they make such a tragedy and drama out of the fact that I allowed some Children to pet her. As if Indra was a fire-spitting dragon. And he said that I refused to leave. I did not refuse to leave I told them that under the State Law I am allowed to be there but turns out, it doesn't apply so I wasn't and the Cops did go over the Law with me point out the Details. Up until that Moment even Dog Control believed that I, in fact, WAS allowed to be there because I was backed up by the Dog Control Officer. 

He also said that the situation was defused after I met with the new Manager. I didn't meet with the City Manager, she called me. 

He did not get a single fact straight. Not even the fact where he states that most parents do not want their Children to interact with dogs in such a place. It's actually the opposite. You wouldn't believe how many parents had their children ask if they can pet her, when I was standing at the Dog Control Tent to wait for the Cop to come back. 

But to be treated like that, despite him knowing me. He met Nala at the fair and never even said a word. I was at his Bar, discussing the dog ban and telling him what I do, it's not like he's never met me before and to read something like that... it is shocking. And even more shocking are the comments. Mayor Graham's View: Police Called as Dog Owner Refuses to Leave

He's in office for 17 years. There is no way I will get this man to change his mind and I received his message.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well we have quite a few farmers markets around here, and heck everyone brings their dogs, at one there are goats wandering around, chickens you name it!

How ridiculous, hope they never call you if one of their kids are missing


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs. K, read all the comments again, and the the link to the news article. Pick out the positive ones, and read them again. You will feel better. 

You can't please all the people all the time. I think that there is a lot of support on those comments if you look for them. You can always find the negatives.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, read all the comments again, and the the link to the news article. Pick out the positive ones, and read them again. You will feel better.
> 
> You can't please all the people all the time. I think that there is a lot of support on those comments if you look for them. You can always find the negatives.


Thank you, Selzer. I needed that reminder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If I want to lay a half decent track for Schutzhund I have to drive at least 45 minutes but I live smack dab in the middle of the second largest city in the state.

My friend used to do SAR and I think drove 2.5-3 hours 1-2 times a week for training with the group.

I get off-the-wall comments about my dogs almost every time I have them out anywhere (public or not) but just laugh it off. I try to remember the good comments, like people driving past my house, slamming on the breaks, and shooting backwards to stop and comment (positively) on the dogs and ask about them.

Last time I walked Pan to the ice cream stand we were crossing at a busy intersection and this guy was coming across towards us but being a total idiot, looking at something over his shoulder while crossing. I started to veer to avoid him but at the last second he turned and then saw Pan and went, "AAAAH!", jumped back, and gave us a nasty look even though HE was walking straight into us not paying attention. People are just so dumb sometimes, they just transcend common sense whether a GSD is involved or not.


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## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

For every family and child that loves and wants to pet your dog, there is another family and child who are afraid of your dogs or just plain don't like dogs. That's their right. Just because we are GSD owners and feel comfortable around our GSD doesn't mean everyone is. I also agree that strangers should not be forced to be some sort of training device for a dog training in SAR. It stated a dog mauled someone at this very farmers market a few years ago and this is why the law was passed. I would bet that Watertown had to pay out a large sum to the victim of that bite. I huge factor in these laws are LIABILITY. Believe me, after 23 years in Law Enforcement, I have worked at least a hundred festivals and public gathering were dogs are forbidden yet someone always thinks they can bring their dog onto the grounds for some sort of training or socialization. I even caught a lady with a Pomeranian in Cleveland Browns Stadium with a "Search and Rescue" vest on. Mrs. K, I am sure you were doing the right thing and really understand your frustration. You seem to really care about SAR and your dogs and hopefully you can find a better area to train in.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A search and rescue DAWG! I like. Bet she got kicked out of the stadium and at those prices that probably hurt. Still, how stupid is that to bring a dog to a Browns' game, there actually are better places to train/socialize. I would NEVER put a small dog down on the ground at the stadium, it gets pretty crazy there. She should have used a service dog vest and she might have gotten away with it. She would still be a nutjob though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

One thing I have to set straight though. I wasn't told at the City Council Meeting. I talked to the Council but not at the Meeting. I talked to the Mayor about it too but not at the Meeting. And the Mayors comment about meeting the Manager is wrong too. She called me!

And who is it going to bite in the ass later down the road? ME!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

When I worked in Watertown one summer I ran my dog off leash many places and never had any issues with people complaining what-so-ever. I wasn't training, I was just out for a run.

We ran at the community college by the highway. There are a bunch of trails in that area, including a few that loop down to the Black River. I would imagine that the campus is a great area for SAR dog training.

Private land is also a great option. I was surveying for wildlife and always asked permission of landowners before going on to their land. Most were very friendly and had no problem with my dog going with me. The majority of farms in that area are abandoned dairy farms- why not make friends with a few landowners and use their land for SAR training? These areas are not far from Watertown (a few miles, or less) and have a wide variety of forest, field, and overgrown pasture.

There is plenty of state forest and state park land fairly close by, as well as a network of ATV trails that are public access and even closer. I ran there and never had a problem with my dog off leash. I rarely saw anyone except the occasional ATV-er and always moved the the side. There is a state park by the lake about 20 minute drive away where I went fairly often, with a few smaller trails and lots of open, people-free beach. 

I think your best bet is to obtain permission to use private land.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've always said; if you can't train properly, then you are only fooling yourself and putting others in danger. The danger is, the dog isn't trained properly. Perhaps it's time to reconsider SAR until all the ducks are in a row and you can train properly, with the proper guidance and number of people needed.

From a law enforcement perspective, I can state unequivocally, it's a nightmare when "wanna bes", poorly trained, untrained and partly trained, muck up a search.

DFrost


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, like I said, I never had any issues with them being off leash at all either and up until now I have made only positive experiences in NY. This is the first time I'm dealing with any of that at all. Never had any issues with the dogs being off leash either until yesterday where I was told I should follow the law and don't have my dog off leash anymore since it's the law and was suggested to actually muzzle them on top of it when I do go to public places. 

And all because of one incident. A horrible incident but come on... muzzling dogs that are actually working and certifying in SAR?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> I've always said; if you can't train properly, then you are only fooling yourself and putting others in danger. The danger is, the dog isn't trained properly. Perhaps it's time to reconsider SAR until all the ducks are in a row and you can train properly, with the proper guidance and number of people needed.
> 
> From a law enforcement perspective, I can state unequivocally, it's a nightmare when "wanna bes", poorly trained, untrained and partly trained, muck up a search.
> 
> DFrost


That is why I teamed up with the Team Upstate and get to train with them as Guest Members. If they aren't professional and a good team, I don't know what is.
That being said, I'd lie if I'd say I haven't thought about joining another team or quitting altogether and simply stick with Grid Searching. 

One thing I am not is a "wanna be" though.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I don't know that much about S&R,but do you think giving a demo of your dogs working to these people who are concerned will help? You may have already thought of that,but it was just an afterthought.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I thought of holding a demo for them. But I'm not sure if they would actually let me do it. However, I may have a chance if I can get Dog Control into the boat, which has been very supportive from the beginning.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Personally, I would simply and sincerely apologize to them for all the commotion and let it go. 

The continuing reaction to this has made it much worse. If you had simply complied, then asked for official permission after the fact there might have been a chance. Easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar yaknow.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Personally, I would simply and sincerely apologize to them for all the commotion and let it go.
> 
> The continuing reaction to this has made it much worse. If you had simply complied, then asked for official permission after the fact there might have been a chance. Easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar yaknow.


Nancy, that is exactly what I did. I asked the cops what I have to do and went to the City Hall. 

The Mayor has written the comment without getting all the facts and turned into something completely else. 

He made it sound like I am a pet dog owner trying to get away with the SAR excuse and people go off of what he says. Not sure if that is actually libel. 

My Coordinator is well aware of the Situation and said that right now SAR is the victim and that we are not the bad guys in this situation and that's the truth and if this is a problem throughout the State we will take it to the legislation and do something about it just like with the SAR Bill that was just passed. 

I will no longer take my dogs to any public place in Watertown, nor will I ever train them within the City Limits.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> This is what the law says:
> 
> There shall be excluded from this Subsection C any owner of a dog which is definded under Section 108 of the New York Agriculutur and Market Law, as the same may be amended from time to time, as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, *working search dog*, therapy dog, detection dog, war dog, or any other dog which may be utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City, or which are professionally trained service animals utilized by persons with disabilities.


Here's my $.02. The key word in this law is WORKING.

Your dogs are _*PRACTICING*_, not working. To me, working means the dog is actively doing a job they are certified to do. Also, your dogs cannot be utilized by law enforcement yet because they are NOT certified.

If your dog is not actively working a case then they have to abide by the laws in place for everyone - on leash at all time when in public.

Personally, I would just stop trying to bend the rules for myself and do what I had to do (like traveling several hours) if I wanted to continue training. I would hate to end up being known as the person that thought themselves above the law or the person that caused bad publicity for my group/team.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Here's my $.02. The key word in this law is WORKING.
> 
> Your dogs are _*PRACTICING*_, not working. To me, working means the dog is actively doing a job they are certified to do. Also, your dogs cannot be utilized by law enforcement yet because they are NOT certified.
> 
> ...


Lauri, I have never bended the law, nor am I trying to bend it. I was merely told that we are allowed there since we are on a search team and train/work search dogs. 

Training dogs is WORKING them. Working includes training. Without training you will have no search dogs. How does a search dog become a search dog? You work them!

Dog Control interpreted the law the way I did, so did most of the police K9 Handlers I talked to. Council Members assured me I have nothing to worry about. That is the only reason I was there and that is the whole issue. It depends on who interprets the law. 

Anyhow, it's no longer an issue because I won't challenge the city, nor will I conduct any training there anymore. 

Lesson learned: Should have gotten it in writing from the beginning!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, apparently the town doesn't even have a process to exclude dogs from the ban yet. So either way, it's something that has to be worked out. While I wasn't at the meeting, maybe there is a way to sit together and work something out for everyone involved. However, since when do Guide and Service dogs have to get a special waiver from the City? I thought they do not have to be registered and isn't that against Federal Law? 
So there is a heck of a lot of stuff going on and I do believe that my incident actually is shedding light onto the whole situation. Not so sure if it really was a bad thing that happened because if their City Ordinance is against Federal Law by having people get a special waiver (including Service Dogs) than that is a problem the city should work out before they get sued over. 

Pommie pup or German shepherd: no dogs are welcome at Watertown farm market - Watertown Dogs | Examiner.com



> According to a report in the Watertown Daily Times , law enforcement informed the dog handler she had to leave the event. She was not issued a ticket and officers discussed the new law with her. Mrs. King was informed she could apply for a waiver throught the office of the city manager, but that she would likely be denied such a permit. Supposedly included in special waivers are service dogs such as guide and therapy dogs, search and rescue, and police dogs. However, the process and parameters of the permit have not yet been worked out, said the city's attorney, Robert J. Sly
> Last January, Mrs. King attended a City Council meeting when the ban was being discussed and expressed her concerns. Mrs. King utilizes public events such as the farmer's market in furthering the social skills of her dogs that are used in search and rescue missions. Mrs. King noted that Watertown is the only place where she doesn't have the freedom to take her dogs into virtually any public gathering. Under the waiver, Mrs. King argued her dog should not have been excluded.
> *What is the process for obtaining a waiver from City Hall, and what exactly are the exceptions to the new ban? Apparently the public cannot yet be informed because the city itself is unsure at this point. It would behoove the city to address this issue in the same timely fashion in which they discussed and implemented the dog ban.*
> Mrs. King should be applauded for having the courage to challenge the dog ban, thus encouraging the city to move forward with figuring out and publicizing the exceptions to the ban. The ban was quickly put in place following a single tragic incident at the market last summer, and no other recourse or education process was sought. It was a knee-jerk reaction to an unfortunate (...)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, the problem has become much bigger. 

Turns out I can't even train on private properties as long as they are not fenced in. Meaning, NONE of the properties that we have access to and got approval to train in. So that is a big issue. If you are on your private property you should be allowed to take your dog off leash but in Watertown, you can't, as long as it's not fenced in or secured by an invisible fence. Nobody is really enforcing it but basically you are breaking the law any time you take your dog off leash.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I thought the only training area you had in Watertown City was the public park?

Where is the invisible fence or fencing rule? I would buy a cheap ecollar and put it on your dog then. You should be able to argue if offers as much containment as an invisible fence even if you don't use it. Those fences are worthless......and had a kid mauled in Charlotte because he went INTO the invisible fence.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, meanwhile we did get offers from a couple of people owning private property. However, it's all about interpretation of the law. 
Justine just pointed out that the law actually doesn't include private properties however, the city official said that every owner has to restrain the dog and he explained that there has to be a fence, if there is no fence, the dog has to be on leash. 

So, I follow their wishes, since not following it, even if I am allowed by law, wouldn't be a good thing to do. It looks like the City Manager is supportive in our case. 
Watertown Daily Times | City Council may study ban of search-and-rescue dogs


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