# interesting observation



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Why is it the people that are having trouble with loose stools, pickey eating or worse are the same ones that mix foods, change foods and add supplements in a completely unscientific way?

You never see a post from a person saying "My dog has been on Royal Canin GSD for 5 years and it won't eat, has dry skin or loose stools..Help"

Why is that?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Because those are usually the people that buy a puppy and switch them to a new kibble right away and their system cant handle it.

Also, some puppies/dogs cant handle certain kibbles, some are too rich for their systems.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

When I first got my GSD as a puppy, he was on Pedigree, I slowly switched him over to Solid Gold Wolf Cub, at 1 years old I put him on Blue Buffalo Blue Wilderness, a little over 8 months ago I switched him over to TOTW. Ever since he was a puppy, every once in a while I have added wet food to his kibble. I also rotate all 4 formulas of TOTW.

He is not a picky eater, he can go for weeks without wet food and not care, we always eats his breakfast and dinner. I've never had a problem.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

My dogs have a food switch every two months. I do it to fosters too, once they get settled in - if they don't have a condition that makes it difficult to do so. KNOCK WOOD  it works.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You never see a post from a person saying "My dog has been on Royal Canin GSD for 5 years and it won't eat, has dry skin or loose stools..Help"

Why is that?[/QUOTE]

Sable some people never know the real potential of their dog's health until they switch !! Know of one dog that changed so much the persons vet thought they had acquired a new dog . Meanwhile the dog had been under the vet's care for chronic ear inflammation . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Often times the food switch is a consequence of the digestive issues not the other way around.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Why is it the people that are having trouble with loose stools, pickey eating or worse are the same ones that mix foods, change foods and add supplements in a completely unscientific way?


Why don't you educate them instead of creating a thread to put them down?
This thread was right underneath (when I clicked new posts) another thread that was asking for advice on those exact issues. Coincidence?

What exactly is the purpose of your post? To make a person seeking advice feel like an idiot?
Not everyone is an expert and shouldn't be put down because they ask.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDGunner said:


> Why don't you educate them instead of creating a thread to put them down?
> This thread was right underneath (when I clicked new posts) another thread that was asking for advice on those exact issues. Coincidence?
> 
> What exactly is the purpose of your post? To make a person seeking advice feel like an idiot?
> Not everyone is an expert and shouldn't be put down because they ask.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Very well said!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I mix foods and change foods in an unscientific way. I pick what I think is best for my dogs and go for it. I have no issues with their health what-so-ever.

I also supplement but I did a TON of research before I chose what to add to their food. 

I don't understand the point of a post like this that offers no constructive information at all....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Out of my dogs I had one that was loose stools no matter what. I think it is the dog not the food switching. All my other dogs would have good stools no matter what they ate but the one dog was problematic with loose stools, allergies etc.

If you have not been there, lucky you!

FWIW I do rotate my current dogs same type different variety each bag too make sure they are getting enough NUTRITIONAL variety. Labels and AAFCO not everything......


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not sure, OP. My dogs are all healthy. I changes foods "cold turkey" and don't have issues (I use California Natural, Taste of the Wild, Fromm, and now Earthborn). Because I have three dogs, they start a new bag every 2 weeks. They also get some raw (usually beef marrow bones and other beef bones) and training treats usually in the form of NB food roll but also including random cheeses, dry cereals, and leftover lunch meats. They also get to "help" when I'm cleaning out the fridge. Heck sometimes I run out of dog food when the pet store is closed and they get a meal or two of raw eggs, canned soup (people), and cottage cheese. Hasn't really been an issue....and my dogs eat whatever is put in front of them. Most days I toss a bunch of kibble on the patio and they hunt around like free range chickens.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

The bottom line is that if people just pick a good mid-grade food, even a higher end food, and just leave it be they wouldn't be having so many problems. 

You cannot feed a puppy like an adult. They cannot assimilate as well and a few days of non-nutrition during these criticial days is just plain damaging.

There is nothing to be gained by taking a perfectly good puppy or ALS food and making a mess of it with toppings and additions at this age.

Apart from the behavioral problems this causes.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

A lot of people are switching their dog's food because the dog has a chronic digestive problem. The food change is a consequence of the problem and not the problem a consequence of the food change. 

JMO, but starting this thread is just condescending and ignorant on your part. A large part of this forum is to offer support and advice but I feel your approach is extremely poor and might deter people from asking for help which is a real shame.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

fuzzybunny said:


> A lot of people are switching their dog's food because the dog has a chronic digestive problem. The food change is a consequence of the problem and not the problem a consequence of the food change.
> 
> JMO, but starting this thread is just condescending and ignorant on your part. A large part of this forum is to offer support and advice but I feel your approach is extremely poor and might deter people from asking for help which is a real shame.


:thumbup:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sable why would you recommend a mid grade food?
actually variety is a good thing.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I switched my pup to raw food the day I got him home. He did not have any behavioral issues with this change, I don't know where you got that from.

I don't want to feed my dog cereal for the rest of his life, the same for me. I can eat nutritious- healthy cereal every morning but NOT EVERY MEAL. Can you do it? 

So far, my dog is very lean and healthy, no problem in the stool nor behavior department, thank you very much.

Why mess with success?? :shrug:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Observations are subjective due to personal biases.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I'm not sure, OP. My dogs are all healthy. I changes foods "cold turkey" and don't have issues (I use California Natural, Taste of the Wild, Fromm, and now Earthborn). Because I have three dogs, they start a new bag every 2 weeks. They also get some raw (usually beef marrow bones and other beef bones) and training treats usually in the form of NB food roll but also including random cheeses, dry cereals, and leftover lunch meats. They also get to "help" when I'm cleaning out the fridge. Heck sometimes I run out of dog food when the pet store is closed and they get a meal or two of raw eggs, canned soup (people), and cottage cheese. Hasn't really been an issue....and my dogs eat whatever is put in front of them. Most days I toss a bunch of kibble on the patio and they hunt around like free range chickens.


I love the honesty of your post-thank you!!

I switch food cold turkey. I chose not to feed a mid grade food, that's just me. My boy is thriving & I'm happy. I rotate between 3 "flavors" of the same kibble brand & also feed Bravo raw. I do sometimes add sardines, cottage cheese, yogurt, sweet potato to his food, why not? He's within his normal weight. He also gets salmon oil & Vit C from Springtime & raw meaty bones to chew on. 

I feel lucky that he could probably eat rocks & be fine. But for those who have dogs with digestive issues that's a challenge. They go through alot of trial & error. I hope they continue to come here and seek help. We all love our dogs & look out for the wellbeing of others.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Behavioral problems due to switching of foods? I have not heard of this...


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

FG167 said:


> Behavioral problems due to switching of foods? I have not heard of this...


I would also like Sable to please elaborate. I'm truely interested.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Courtney said:


> I would also like Sable to please elaborate. I'm truely interested.


Perhaps he/she meant creating a picky eater by constantly switching foods when the dog doesn't eat?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

stealthq said:


> Perhaps he/she meant creating a picky eater by constantly switching foods when the dog doesn't eat?


Perhaps. Or a dog that does get an upset stomach & doesn't feel good would make a dog crabby & that would have an effect on behaviour.


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## Zan (Nov 12, 2010)

*Question about rotating*



> I also rotate all 4 formulas of TOTW.


LaRen, when you rotate do you have to introduce slowly again? I have Neko on TOTW sierra Mountain (lamb) right now, and she's doing great - but if my pet store for some reason doesn't stock that particular variety when I need it, I'm wondering of it's ok to just switch to a different formula of the same brand (if she's eaten it before, I mean...I wouldn't just introduce a whole new bag out of the blue.)

Thanks!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Zan said:


> LaRen, when you rotate do you have to introduce slowly again? I have Neko on TOTW sierra Mountain (lamb) right now, and she's doing great - but if my pet store for some reason doesn't stock that particular variety when I need it, I'm wondering of it's ok to just switch to a different formula of the same brand (if she's eaten it before, I mean...I wouldn't just introduce a whole new bag out of the blue.)
> 
> Thanks!


No, I do not switch them slowly. I buy a different bag every month and make the switch as soon as one runs out, but if there is only 1 cup left of one flavor I will mix it with 1 cup of a different flavor.

I do the same thing with my cats, they are also on TOTW and I alternate between the 2 formulas they have.


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## Zan (Nov 12, 2010)

Ok, thank you!


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Zan said:


> LaRen, when you rotate do you have to introduce slowly again? I have Neko on TOTW sierra Mountain (lamb) right now, and she's doing great - but if my pet store for some reason doesn't stock that particular variety when I need it, I'm wondering of it's ok to just switch to a different formula of the same brand (if she's eaten it before, I mean...I wouldn't just introduce a whole new bag out of the blue.)
> 
> Thanks!


I change foods that my dogs have eaten before cold turkey and haven't ever had an issue. I will sometimes run out just as I am getting a new bag or I will get a new back and combine it. They rarely eat the same food for months at a time, I cycle between several brands they like and depending on what is on sale.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ditto...no issues when switching cold turkey.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Liesje said:


> I'm not sure, OP. My dogs are all healthy. I changes foods "cold turkey" and don't have issues (I use California Natural, Taste of the Wild, Fromm, and now Earthborn). Because I have three dogs, they start a new bag every 2 weeks. They also get some raw (usually beef marrow bones and other beef bones) and training treats usually in the form of NB food roll but also including random cheeses, dry cereals, and leftover lunch meats. They also get to "help" when I'm cleaning out the fridge. Heck sometimes I run out of dog food when the pet store is closed and they get a meal or two of raw eggs, canned soup (people), and cottage cheese. Hasn't really been an issue....and my dogs eat whatever is put in front of them. Most days I toss a bunch of kibble on the patio and they hunt around like free range chickens.


:rofl: That sounds like how my dogs are fed. They get everything.



FG167 said:


> Behavioral problems due to switching of foods? I have not heard of this...


The only behavior changes I've ever seen in my dogs was when I took Zoey off Sams Club Complete Dog Chow (6 or so years ago) and put her on Solid Gold. Her temperament evened out a LOT when she was switched to a better food and she had less aggression issues. I've never had good food have a negative effect on my dogs though.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

sable123 said:


> The bottom line is that if people just pick a good mid-grade food, even a higher end food, and just leave it be they wouldn't be having so many problems.
> 
> You cannot feed a puppy like an adult. They cannot assimilate as well and a few days of non-nutrition during these criticial days is just plain damaging.
> 
> ...


I will say that I agree with being VERY careful about how a puppy is fed - look at how carefully we are supposed to feed newborns for maximum care and development of their neuro and other systems. 

When I have puppy fosters my whole day revolves around their feeding if they are not well. My adults go through different foods - my puppy fosters are given "bland" dog foods that increase in complexity at 6 months, to the same rotation at 10-12 months as adults. I am not saying that this is the way to do it in terms of timeframes, just what I have come to - and with more research, maybe I'd do the times differently. 

The behavioral problems I think he is talking about are the ones where a dog will sit and wait for the "right" food to be added before they start to eat. Which can be really bad!

Funniest example I have was my parents' dog who would get homemade sauce when they had pasta - if it wasn't on, no problem, but he definitely liked it when it was. At my sisters' on vacation he was a little off his food - she tried to give him Ragu and he would not touch it. :rofl:


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Oh, I dunno Sable. I have had my dog on Orijen LBP since day 1 and her stool has never been solid enough for me. It is not runny, usually, but a bit too soft nd goes to "pudding" at the end sometimes. But she seems to be so healthy, shiny, energetic and a good weight that I didn't want to mess with it yet. She is 6 months old now so I might start messing with it, we'll see. I always wonder if it is the bully sticks causing the softness, but she only eats about 1/3 of a 12" stick per day, so who knows?

Anyway, premium kibble isn't the cure-all, and I think most folks who are switching foods are doing it BECAUSE of digestive issues, not the other way around.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I am going to stick my neck out here as I suspect that my post is one of the ones that prompted Sable to start this thread. 

My dog is an adult four year old GSD rescue. I have owned him for just five months. He was seized for neglect and abandonment and I have put twenty pounds on him since adopting him. At the same time, I have seven other dogs - six personal and one non-GSD foster. Of my six personal dogs, five are AKC champions and they are fed quite well. The non-GSD foster dog was a train wreck when I got him in February and he has done an incredible turn-around in twelve weeks due to my care and attention. He has had pyoderma, horrible ear infections, was emaciated, is deaf and his sporting dog coat hung in matted dreadlocks. He is now ready for adoption and is as good as he can be, given his other infirmities due to his years of neglect.

The GSD has been through several bouts of diarrhea and one episode of hemorrhagic gastroenteritis since December. I have tried different foods as he appeared to lose interest in what he initially ate. We tried adding some good tasting "stuff" to see if that was all that he needed to encourage him to eat. Since I know nothing of his history and never will, I can only change foods, try supplements and keep my vet involved so that he continues to do improve. He appears to stress very easily (thunderstorms, gun shots, changes in routine such as my departure for three days, etc.). At 30 inches tall and nearly 48 inches long (not including the tail), he is a large framed dog and he also came from a neglectful situation. All that I am trying to determine at this point is whether or not he has a food preference (i.e. beef/red meat versus chicken-based food, allergies, stress issues or gut issues). As a rescue, I am hunting and pecking in the dark just trying to do what is best for him and to keep him on an even intake and output pattern. 

With my expertise in breeding, showing and rescue, I would offer that nothing that I have done for Max the GSD, my foster dog or my six personal dogs is "unscientific". My mother has been showing and breeding GSDs for more than 50 years too. I have a wealth of knowledge at my disposal and am only trying to find out what makes Max eat or not eat.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

No not at all. It is all the threads where people come on talking about loose stools with puppies and adults and picky eating. It is no wonder they have these problems. They cover expensive dog foods that are arguably too rich to begin with all kinds of junk to satisfy themselves and not the dog's welfare. You have a rescue I can understand those issues.

There are legitimate problems out there but when you read these threads it is pretty clear many of the problems are the owners fault.

The best ones are where people self-diagnose food allergies.


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## HeyJude (Feb 2, 2011)

sable123 said:


> No not at all. It is all the threads where people come on talking about loose stools with puppies and adults and picky eating. It is no wonder they have these problems. They cover expensive dog foods that are arguably too rich to begin with all kinds of junk to satisfy themselves and not the dog's welfare. You have a rescue I can understand those issues.
> 
> There are legitimate problems out there but when you read these threads it is pretty clear many of the problems are the owners fault.
> 
> The best ones are where people self-diagnose food allergies.


And you make us first time GSD owners run away from forums like this with your high and mighty remarks. Its a wonder this forum has any new members at all with people like you and your high and mighty horse looking down at us.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

HeyJude said:


> And you make us first time GSD owners run away from forums like this with your high and mighty remarks. Its a wonder this forum has any new members at all with people like you and your high and mighty horse looking down at us.


I used to confuse "high & mighty" with "correct". Sorry trying to lighten the mood.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think you have to give a dog variety so they will tolerate other proteins/ingredients better. I feed raw, so my dogs get a variety, yet it is limited ingredient.
My dogs never are picky, or have digestive issues(2x's in 4 years/3dogs) 
Research what you feed and feed the most nutritous diet affordable.
Bully sticks, rawhides, marrow bones, peanut butter, treats can all cause some digestive upset or bring the stool to an inconsistant form. 
I don't fuss over how my dogs poop looks, as long as they aren't explosively diarrhea'ing or constipated, its all good. 
What goes in comes out much, much smaller with a rawfed....hardly any poop whatsoever.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

see i've read through this thread and i'm still not understanding what exactly the purpose was. To put people down who have tried unsuccessfully to figure out WHY their dog has some digestive issues or to just put people down for being new and asking questions that have been asked several times already. I have a dog who has a problematic stomach. He'll eat just about anything you put in front of him but he's also the first one to throw up over the smallest thing. He regularly has loose stools and even the explosive days where i dont even trust him in the house at all. My other dog will eat and eat and eat until she explodes. She's thrown up once and that was in the car before she realized the car takes her fun and interesting places. She occassionally has digestive issues that result in her spending the day outside whether she likes it or not. They have been switched to and from foods a couple times before we settled on the brand we're on now. Its not changed how my male reacts to foods. There is no rhyme or reason to when he is just a nasty dog. He DOES have food allergies but since we got them off foods that use corn in them, he's not had itchy issues. Some dogs can handle anything while others cant and i think thats one of the things people fail to realize while they're switching around from one food to another before the dog can even blink. If your dog doesnt have any issues thats fabulous, lucky you. For those of us who do have dogs with stomach issues, yeah... sometimes we ask questions. I think this thread is one of those high and mighty better than all type threads. Personal opinion. At least people are asking questions to maybe figure out the problem instead of leaving it alone and maybe something being seriously wrong with the dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess I'm not getting what the purpose is..If people don't ask questions especially regarding food, how are they supposed to learn? 

I have never had a problem switching foods cold turkey , and DO switch around at times. Thank goodness my dogs have guts of steel, because I can imagine what a royal pain it is, to have a dog with digestive issues , try this and that, having it not work..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sable123 has an agenda...someday we'll know what it is(but I doubt anyone really cares).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He's a corn broker.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I do not get this either. I might get smacked for this remark but I just think sometimes instead of blaming the owner for switching food and trying to figure out what works. Maybe some breeders should stop breeding dogs with stomach issues. I know many GSD that never have any problems, mine included. I swear Max could eat hay and be fine!

Just my two cents and I am sure not all GSD tummy issues are from breeding but I have seen many that are.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> He's a corn broker.


:rofl: maybe he needs to watch the video I posted where a vet recommends raw as her number 1 food choice. And says to stay away from corn, blah blah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He did read it. Laughed at it and said Dr. Becker was cute.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> He did read it. Laughed at it and said Dr. Becker was cute.


Oh ya I remember now!


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> He's a corn broker.


LMAO!:wild:


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I am definitely guilty of switching foods :greet:. As a first time GSD owner with Kaiya, I learned from this board the many benefits of switching to a high quality food. After several bouts of bumps, scabbies, medicated shampoo, and prescribed medicine, I realized she was allergic to grains and switched from Wellness LBP to Wellness Core. But she just never really liked it and I am one of those that want to see my pup healthy AND happy with their food. Since then, my pack has been on different brands of TOTW, Orijen, and Raw. We've finally found a happy medium in TOTW Roasted Fowl formula and Raw. The only time we had digestive issues was the one time I let myself run out of kibble, and thought I could supplement with some leftover Iams until I ran to the store. It was not a pretty sight!

I think that there's just some of us out there that love our dogs enough to want to find not only works for their bodies, but satisfies their taste buds as well. I'm sure we ourselves could live off of just chicken for the rest of our lives, but ain't it grand that we don't have to??


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I think about 95% (at least) of the threads on here dealing with loose stools is due to underlying health issues such as SIBO, IBD, EPI, etc. Sometimes, it takes a while to figure out the best food for the dog in that situation.

One thing we all need to remember....the OP does not even own a GSD and really has no clue what a GSD requires.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would like to vote the OP off the island.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I would like to vote the OP off the island.


ouch...soda through the nose...thank you very much


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I would like to vote the OP off the island.


:rofl: :lurking:
Be nice Lauren!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> :rofl: :lurking:
> Be nice Lauren!


They are not team players, they are complainers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In all fairness, I watched the video. I think this same vet talked to our GSD club this month. Could have been another, but they were saying similar stuff. 

Suddenly, we are listening to what vets say about nutrition. 

Well, my vet happens to say corn is lower on the list of causing allergies than beef and wheat and many other items. But I should suddenly listen to _this _vet. Why? Because she is preaching what you want to hear. 

I don't know. I think there is merit in the fact that most foods that contain corn have other very low cost ingredients and questionable ingredients like meat and bone meal, and animal fat, and glutens. If a food uses higher quality corn and higher quality ingredients in all, I think that it can be just as effective as foods that use a conglomeration of grains, such as rices and oatmeal or even carbs like potato. 

I mean in a biologically appropriate diet for canids, where in the world would they get potatoes from?

But whatever. I feed corn. I personally think corn fixed a mess caused by a dog food free of corn and with five stars. If the choice lies between diamond manufacture and a product with corn, corn wins hands down. 

I do not supplement with anything but occasionally some raw meat.


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## schroedes (Sep 10, 2010)

Seems to me this "sable" likes to just stir the pot a little to get people all irked. I believe they are called trolls. And he- she is constantly bashing people that feed their dogs high grade food and pushing a lot of food that is consistently shown to be lower quality. I don't understand the point of this over and over. Some weird form of entertainment for he- she. Feed your dogs midgrade food and never give them variety and the rest of us will offer variety and try to feed good food to our dogs and everyone will be happy! Lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is kind of like getting a dog from a good breeder as opposed to a breeder who does not have all their ducks in a row. If you get a dog from a good breeder and it has a problem like MegaE, then it was the luck of the genetic draw. If you got a dog from the other breeder and it has a problem like MegaE, well, see that is because you got your dog from a BYB or a puppy mill, etc.

Same here. If you feed your dog RAW or grain-free or a five star food, and it has a problem, well then it is its breeding or it is because shepherds have lots of gastro-intestinal problems. But if you feed your dog anything else, and it has a problem, WELL, that is because you are feeding it that garbage, you are feeding grains, you are feeding corn, etc, etc, etc. 

Some foods are better than other foods. 

Some foods are better for some dogs than other foods are.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

The only thing that seems a little odd to me is that the only threads or posts that the OP seems to ever contribute to are ones regarding food and feeding??


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> He's a corn broker.


:spittingcoffee:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> The only thing that seems a little odd to me is that the only threads or posts that the OP seems to ever contribute to are ones regarding food and feeding??


To me this does not seem odd. We all have our areas that we have more knowledge about than others. Diet & nutrition seems to be an area that Sable is passionate about, sometimes it's the delivery that turns members off in his/her posts. There has been plenty of posts from Sable that I have read & got something from.

I am curious Sable what kind of dog you own? Also, what are you feeding exactly?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Courtney said:


> To me this does not seem odd. We all have our areas that we have more knowledge about than others. Diet & nutrition seems to be an area that Sable is passionate about, sometimes it's the delivery that turns members off in his/her posts. There has been plenty of posts from Sable that I have read & got something from.
> 
> I am curious Sable what kind of dog you own? Also, what are you feeding exactly?


 
I have one GSD, Babbu, that is actually my friend's dog that has been with me for close to two years. He was a basket case when I took him. Picky eater, itchy, thin, nasty coat. My friend and his wife are overseas so eventuually he will go home. He is a nice dog and he is the only dog in the house. I have a whole kennel of hunting dogs. Mostly of the wired-haired variety, German Wirehaired's & Spinones.

I only feed Annamaet Ultra & Dr. Tim's Pursuit. I have used Annamaet Salcha as well and liked it very much. When I bred I sent puppies home with Pro Pac because it is easy to get and a good value. In fact Babbu was fed Pro Pac High Performance from the day he arrived. I threw the baked boutique crap that he was eating away.

The two foods I use now are in my opinion the only high-end kibbles that have been really tested. I mean really tested, not some goofy consumer panel, tested with sled and hunting dogs. AU has been on the market for 25 years and racing teams have dominated with it. Dr. Tim's is somewhat newer but was tested around the world for six years before commercialized.

I rarely supplement with any except green tripe.

The only reason why I ever posted here is because it seems the GSD people have been dealt a bad hand genetically and seem to feed foods that LOOK good but really are just consumer products.

My standards are different.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> In all fairness, I watched the video. I think this same vet talked to our GSD club this month. Could have been another, but they were saying similar stuff.
> 
> Suddenly, we are listening to what vets say about nutrition.
> 
> ...


Smart man/woman.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I find it interesting that just because someone hasn't jumped on the bandwagon of grain free (although to be fair, I've seen sable recommend some grain free foods) and just because someone has a different perspective, and doesn't get mean about it, means they are a troll.

Sad. I have to agree with sable on one thing - I think many here brag about what they feed when it's the new and hot food on the market or the most "reputable" food promoted on the board at the time. Over the years I've seen this forum go from recommending what they considered the number one food (Nutro Natural Choice) to if you don't feed Orijen or Taste of the Wild you shouldn't have a dog because you can't afford it or don't believe in feeding dogs a grain free diet.

It's funny, what I feed would be considered by many here to be a "mid range" food, and it works GREAT. I feed a higher quality food to my EPI girl who does better on it. I feed what works, period. And it works for many others. But those that don't feed what the loudest members here recommend dare not say what they feed or you'll get slaughtered.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

sable123 said:


> I have one GSD, Babbu, that is actually my friend's dog that has been with me for close to two years. He was a basket case when I took him. Picky eater, itchy, thin, nasty coat. My friend and his wife are overseas so eventuually he will go home. He is a nice dog and he is the only dog in the house. I have a whole kennel of hunting dogs. Mostly of the wired-haired variety, German Wirehaired's & Spinones.
> 
> I only feed Annamaet Ultra & Dr. Tim's Pursuit. I have used Annamaet Salcha as well and liked it very much. When I bred I sent puppies home with Pro Pac because it is easy to get and a good value. In fact Babbu was fed Pro Pac High Performance from the day he arrived. I threw the baked boutique crap that he was eating away.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing. All one had to do was ask, you were very forthcoming. Your friends are lucky you are taking care of their GSD Are you hooked enough on the breed to get one of your own? You are also correct IMO regarding some GSD being dealt a bad hand genetically.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Courtney said:


> Thank you for sharing. All one had to do was ask, you were very forthcoming. Your friends are lucky you are taking care of their GSD Are you hooked enough on the breed to get one of your own? You are also correct IMO regarding some GSD being dealt a bad hand genetically.


 
Perhaps I will.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Basically I don't have an issue with people feeding medium line kibbles but if I express concern over certain ingredients then am told that "you are all wrong" [for example menadione, which is banned in human food] and that the research "is there" to refute me but then the actual reasearch is not cited..........well.........I have an issue.

People should be able to make their own choices and honestly the main people I see beating others up for their food choices are *some* of the raw feeders [not most] and those who seems to think anyone feeding grain fee is only doing it for some sort of status thing.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Basically I don't have an issue with people feeding medium line kibbles but if I express concern over certain ingredients then am told that "you are all wrong" [for example menadione, which is banned in human food] and that the research "is there" to refute me but then the actual reasearch is not cited..........well.........I have an issue.
> 
> People should be able to make their own choices and honestly the main people I see beating others up for their food choices are *some* of the raw feeders [not most] and those who seems to think anyone feeding grain fee is only doing it for some sort of status thing.


 
The vitamin K3 hysteria is a total fabrication by the internet thugs. It has been added for years as a precaution because VK is just tough to get naturally in a canine's diet.

Some of the herbs dogs ingest in some foods and that are used topically pose much more risk than the very small levels of ingested K3. K3 is perhaps safer than any form of VK because it is the only form that is water soluable.

The references you have relate to one study where hemolytic anemia was induced by injecting K3 in rats not eating it. As for the ban here, it is due to abuse by athletes and the fact that VK suplementation is simply not needed in our diets. 

All forms are banned in Canada.

If any substance was injected at that level, hemolytic anemia would be the result.

This is the science.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Basically I don't have an issue with people feeding medium line kibbles


I think the issue that I personally have with this, and why I put it in quotes, is that I don't consider it a "medium grade" kibble. I consider it a high quality kibble or I wouldn't feed it. By this sites standards, it would be considered medium grade. By my standards, it's high quality.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Regarding the status symbol - I think there are those who feed it because they believe it's the best, then there are those who feed it because it's the hot new food and they want to be able to proclaim that they feed it. Ironically enough, you often don't see those who have decades of experience feeding dogs recommending these fancy foods. Yes SOME have experience, but more often than not - those that I see constantly posting what they feed and recommend have one or two years dog experience, or had one dog for 15 years and now are onto their second. Which I consider limited experience with different dogs, different diets, etc. So I don't put much stock into those opinions. I research the food, play around with things, and feed what works. And couldn't care less if anyone agrees with it,so I don't ask for opinions on diet and more often than not, I steer clear of those threads because I think a large group here is somewhat brainwashed. You see what you want to see more often than not. I've seen dogs fed the crappiest foods on the market look great, feel great, and live to a ripe old age. I've seen photo threads here of the dogs fed Orijen and TOTW who look worse than my own.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I feed TOTW because I like the ingredients and it's affordable. 

I buy a 30 pound bag for $40. 

I like that it's grain free, my dog had flakes on his old kibble and ever since he was switched to grain free, he doesn't have any flakes.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have an issue when someone considers their OWN opinions to be fact, can't back them up, and considers points raised by others to be meaningless.

I, too, have been feeding TOTW which is reasonably priced. The female gets Natural Balance LID and has been doing GREAT on it but not enough protien and fat for my working male. There are many things I agre with, smugness and condescension I do not. I have also been one to speak up when a "cheap" food is "working" for an allergic dog to go with it (specifically some dogs on beneful and ONE Sensitive systems)..I just do not understand the mantra of condemning any food choice "other than" a grain containing 30/20 food. 

FWIW - I have had dogs since 1964 and have been making dog food purchases since about 1980. Fed raw for several years as well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how feedign affects behaviour 
Gut bacteria linked to behavior: That anxiety may be in your gut, not in your head

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

carmspack said:


> how feedign affects behaviour
> Gut bacteria linked to behavior: That anxiety may be in your gut, not in your head


yes-this makes sense to me.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Wow, great link Carmspack.
I wish I had read that years ago while taking care of my mother.

I still think lowering the protein content in my dog's food has helped her with the seizures. I had been feeding her rocket fuel and wasn't working her. I believe it has helped some D/A issues as well. (Aside from age and leadership role being stepped up on my part)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I just still wonder how when I was a kid, my parents bought the dog food from eee gads the grocery store..Probably stuff that was 8$ for a 40# bag, and our dogs lived till ripe old ages relatively healthy..Of course we didn't vaccinate much, dogs ran loose in the neighborhood.. Ahh the good old days


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I just still wonder how when I was a kid, my parents bought the dog food from eee gads the grocery store..Probably stuff that was 8$ for a 40# bag, and our dogs lived till ripe old ages relatively healthy..Of course we didn't vaccinate much, dogs ran loose in the neighborhood.. Ahh the good old days


Amen to that. And who says that using the empirical method of choosing a dog food isn't scientific? Have you ever worked in a lab? Scientists use rats to see what works or doesn't and how it works. Changing from a dog food that doesn't 'work' to one that does is not a heck of a lot less 'scientific'.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I just still wonder how when I was a kid, my parents bought the dog food from eee gads the grocery store..Probably stuff that was 8$ for a 40# bag, and our dogs lived till ripe old ages relatively healthy..Of course we didn't vaccinate much, dogs ran loose in the neighborhood.. Ahh the good old days


ha ha You do make a good point. My parents think it's absurd the money I spend on dog food. They have a mixed breed, intact male, hasn't had a vaccine in over 10 years and has been fed canned Alpo his whole life and he's 15!! They also have 2 senior spayed females that are close to 13 and going strong!


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I just still wonder how when I was a kid, my parents bought the dog food from eee gads the grocery store..Probably stuff that was 8$ for a 40# bag, and our dogs lived till ripe old ages relatively healthy..Of course we didn't vaccinate much, dogs ran loose in the neighborhood.. Ahh the good old days


When I was a kid we had a mini sch who was fine until she hit about 9 then stated having all kinds of kidney/liver problems. She ended up dying at 10. We fed her kibbles n' bits. Knowing what I know now....we were poisoning her liver/kidneys into failure. Which is what she died from. 

It's like people, some people take very good care of themselves and die of cancer at 30. Some people eat crap everyday and die at 90. It is what it is, but balance in diet/lifestyle/stress/etc (good and bad) will get you somewhere in between when you are still sane and not pooping your pants! haha :wild:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

suzzyq01 said:


> When I was a kid we had a mini sch who was fine until she hit about 9 then stated having all kinds of kidney/liver problems. She ended up dying at 10. We fed her kibbles n' bits. Knowing what I know now....we were poisoning her liver/kidneys into failure. Which is what she died from.
> 
> It's like people, some people take very good care of themselves and die of cancer at 30. Some people eat crap everyday and die at 90. It is what it is, but balance in diet/lifestyle/stress/etc (good and bad) will get you somewhere in between when you are still sane and not pooping your pants! haha :wild:


Very true. My husband and I are very health conscience. We eat right & exercise and are a active family all around. It's only natural we would feed our dog what we think is a healthy, good quality food. I will say even tho my parents dogs are seniors and have survived on Alpo, they have never had healthy looking coats, shed alot and honestly kind of smell. They have had some health issues over the years, but are happy dogs & cared for. It's just different than what I would do.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

suzzyq01 said:


> When I was a kid we had a mini sch who was fine until she hit about 9 then stated having all kinds of kidney/liver problems. She ended up dying at 10. We fed her kibbles n' bits. Knowing what I know now....we were poisoning her liver/kidneys into failure. Which is what she died from.
> 
> It's like people, some people take very good care of themselves and die of cancer at 30. Some people eat crap everyday and die at 90. It is what it is, but balance in diet/lifestyle/stress/etc (good and bad) will get you somewhere in between when you are still sane and not pooping your pants! haha :wild:


nah, hogwash. She most likely would've had those problems anyway. Just like people, dogs have problems too and it often takes them younger than their max life span. Just because a dog "can" live to 15 doesn't mean it will, just as a person can make it to 100+ but often doesn't, even with fabulous health and exercise.

Our family shepherd growing up ate whatever was on sale at the grocery store. Kibbles n bits I know was a regular, as was pedigree, etc. I don't think my parents fed him the REALLY cheap stuff (alpo, etc) but they may have. I switched him to nutro when he was about 8 and the only thing that changed was that he didn't get hot spots anymore. He lived to 14 yrs.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Back in the 60's when I was a kid, our dog ate Gaines Burgers.  Any you..ahem..older folks remember that?
Back then there wasn't such an emphasis on dog nutrition like there is nowadays. Dogs ate Alpo or Chuck Wagon and did just fine.
I don't know if the ingredients were good or bad versus what is in grocery store food available now.
But my dogs growing up lived to ripe old ages and didn't have any health issues I recall.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

My husband and I eat like crap but are obsessed with Mac's healthy diet. Doesn't make sense LOL


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well the stray puppy we had growing up (eighties -- I was a teenager), was being fed Edward's (Finast Brand) gainsburgers in little packets. She had worms and got really sick. The old vet told us to feed her chicken soup. We tried that, Campbell's Chicken Noodle Soup. She got worse. A week later she looked skeletal. We took her back to the vet. He said he would check her for worms but he did not want to while she was so sick, so he gave her a shot to make her more active. We got her back in the car and my mom drove to the other vet in town, the new vet. 

He was furious and shaking his head, he checked her for worms which she had, then he told us to get her off the generic food, and keep her out of the garbage. And we wormed her. He told us to look for the AAFCO label and look for 100% nutrionally balanced. We put her on Dad's Trail Mix, or Purina, She also ate the Alpo Come-n-get it. 

At 18 months she had a lump on her stomach and the vet removed it and had it biopsied. It was an aggressive form of stomach cancer. He gave her an optimistic life span of 12-18 months. 

We changed nothing. She lived to be over 14 when we euthanized her -- she was seizing and foaming at the mouth and had neurological signs, and the vet said it was time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDGunner said:


> Back in the 60's when I was a kid, our dog ate Gaines Burgers.  Any you..ahem..older folks remember that?
> Back then there wasn't such an emphasis on dog nutrition like there is nowadays. Dogs ate Alpo or Chuck Wagon and did just fine.
> I don't know if the ingredients were good or bad versus what is in grocery store food available now.
> But my dogs growing up lived to ripe old ages and didn't have any health issues I recall.


Definitely remember the gaines burgers, they had cheese flavor too. I was born back in '68. I guess that makes me an old-timer, LOL!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

suzzyq01 said:


> It's like people, some people take very good care of themselves and die of cancer at 30. Some people eat crap everyday and die at 90. It is what it is, but balance in diet/lifestyle/stress/etc (good and bad) will get you somewhere in between when you are still sane and not pooping your pants! haha :wild:


Definitely. A lot depends on the animal. Some may do horrible despite good food, and some may do great on junk. But in the middle, I think they all improve from a better diet. But a better diet doesn't always mean the same thing, it means whats better for THAT dog. 

I've unfortunately seen a lot of health issues caused by poor diet. And my path to improving diet was almost losing my cat Piper. I later did lose her, at only 6 years old. We believe when she got so sick and lost so much weight it caused heart muscle damage that caught up with her. At the time I was feeding Tessa Pro Pac, and the cats Iams multicat. I definitely saw a dramatic improvement when I switched to Natures Variety. And even more so when I went raw. I had another cat Lorelai with food allergies. She broke out in itchy scaly hives, and was prone to upper respiratory infections with eye involvement. On natures variety I had to feed her the abnormal proteins like rabbit and duck. When I went raw, she blossomed and ate chicken, turkey, beef, etc. The photos documenting from when she arrived, improvement on NV, and then improvement on raw are astounding. And afterwards, she never had another URI.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Rerun said:


> nah, hogwash. She most likely would've had those problems anyway. Just like people, dogs have problems too and it often takes them younger than their max life span. Just because a dog "can" live to 15 doesn't mean it will, just as a person can make it to 100+ but often doesn't, even with fabulous health and exercise.
> 
> Our family shepherd growing up ate whatever was on sale at the grocery store. Kibbles n bits I know was a regular, as was pedigree, etc. I don't think my parents fed him the REALLY cheap stuff (alpo, etc) but they may have. I switched him to nutro when he was about 8 and the only thing that changed was that he didn't get hot spots anymore. He lived to 14 yrs.


I dunno I have read some insane stuff.

Basically some of the stuff I have read from tons of different places (on the internet) so who knows if it is really true or not. That the major dog food companies that produce lower grade kibble such as purina use poor grades of meat from sources that may contain toxins such as the euthanasia drug. In my readings it said that these companies obtained meat from slaughter houses, farms/ranches of diseased cattle/horses/etc, expired meat from grocery stores (they wouldn't even remove the Styrofoam and wrap they just throw the whole thing in), roadkill, and even euthanize dogs/cats from animal shelters. They went on the say the the euthanasia drug can not be rendered (cooked) out of the meat no matter how high the temp. So if they used cattle or even deceased pets that were euthanized then it was slowing destroying the liver/kidneys of the animal that ate the food. 
I believe this is not all hogwash because there was undercover video taken of some of this craziness! Not to mention the corn/barley/etc is covered in pesticides. 

I dunno, raw is the best because I know what's in it and where it came from, but if I had to go second best I would go with more of a claimed holistic formula kibble.

Here are a couple of things I have read....Doesn't mean it's the word of the lord, but I can't imagine how someone would have made this up and not been sued by Purina/etc if it wasn't true. 

The Shocking Truth About Commercial Dog Food

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/truth.pdf


Ok my rant is over :hug:


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I'm not sure, OP. My dogs are all healthy. I changes foods "cold turkey" and don't have issues (I use California Natural, Taste of the Wild, Fromm, and now Earthborn). Because I have three dogs, they start a new bag every 2 weeks. They also get some raw (usually beef marrow bones and other beef bones) and training treats usually in the form of NB food roll but also including random cheeses, dry cereals, and leftover lunch meats. They also get to "help" when I'm cleaning out the fridge. Heck sometimes I run out of dog food when the pet store is closed and they get a meal or two of raw eggs, canned soup (people), and cottage cheese. Hasn't really been an issue....and my dogs eat whatever is put in front of them. Most days I toss a bunch of kibble on the patio and they hunt around like free range chickens.


I fed this way for several years prior to going all raw, tho my kibbles were Wild & Natural, Earthborn, Canidae grain free, TOTW, Barking at the Moon, Before Grain & Nature's Logic. Now it's primarily chicken & turkey so that I can feed raw, but affordably. Some years back I fed Purina ONE, Pro Pak & Super Sweet (upper end 'mid level foods' in those days). Mine did every bit as good fed one way as another. IF I could no longer afford raw, I'd feed high quality kibble again without a qualm. IF I couldn't afford grain free meat based kibble, I'd feed Purina ONE again without any regrets.

I feed raw for 3 reasons. I do think it's more naturally suited to canines. I think it might correlate with a lower risk of diabetes & thyroid disease. It definitely results in considerably less stool. 

I don't obsess over food b/c mine have always thrived on whatever I fed 'em. I'm absolutely convinced we generally need better breeding much more than ever improved feeding.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I just still wonder how when I was a kid, my parents bought the dog food from eee gads the grocery store..Probably stuff that was 8$ for a 40# bag, and our dogs lived till ripe old ages relatively healthy..Of course we didn't vaccinate much, dogs ran loose in the neighborhood.. Ahh the good old days


 
Good point . I think we all experienced that . But there is a reason why some 40 years later the experience is not the same . Look at Pottenger's cats The Pottenger Cat Studies a study I am sure familiar to many. Now we have unheard of young pups, 8 to 10 weeks of age already having digestive problems , symptoms of allergies , when they , and their parents, grandparents, great grandparents , and on and on have had successful generations of not really fed appropriately, it does have an affect on the future generations. 
This involves epigenetics, how outside influences of environment and nutrition change genetics. Study Finds Evidence of Genetic Response to Diet - New York Times It is why some cultures have difficulty with foods.
So each generation has had a decline in over all health . 

I know with my childhood family dog , Asta, that lived to a healthy problem free life of just over 16 years , she lived on trimmings, table scraps , and my duty was every Saturday to walk to the butcher's to collect "abfall" and meats . The kids wanted to give her the queenly treatment and feed her the "new" food , the kibble -- Well that lasted for a one bag experience !!! and then it was back to eating the old way .

As a breeder I have a thought out program which is built on using successive generations , so I have dogs that are the offspring of dogs I had 35 years ago -- and they have experienced a non kibble / raw diet for 28 years or more -- and no problems -- verifiable -- no allergies , no digestive -- clean orthopedics and many living well into 14 or and some to 15 , one to 17 years of age . 

"you" are not just what you eat, "you" are also what your mother ate , and her mother before her . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Gaines burgers were so full of dye . I had a dog that I was looking after while a friend was in hospital . The dog would poop on my wooden deck . Holy cow . The first time the stool was nose ripping awful stench -- and when scraped off left a semi-permanent red stain on the wooden deck. Meanwhile at the same time my dogs were being fed chicken frames from a kosher chicken butcher on Spadina , south of College (for our Toronto / Ontario members). I would travel on the street car with a trundle buggy to get 25 to 50 pounds of chicken at a time.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Reading the first few pages of this thread makes me want to start feeding my dogs cold turkey.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Leah! :rofl: Jax sometimes gets her half frozen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good_Karma said:


> Reading the first few pages of this thread makes me want to start feeding my dogs cold turkey.


They will like it.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Someone started a post here once about how they wanted to try raw diet, and heard that you should do cold turkey. And then asked questions about feeding cold turkey.


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## Mika140 (Jan 8, 2011)

Some GSD's actually do have health issues that cause loose stools. My GSD came to me on a mid-grade kibble and had loose stools from the first day I got him. I tried the mid and high grade kibbles recommended by Sable (not b/c they were recommended by Sable - just because I tried my own un-scientific way first), and still loose stools. 

So if things are "broken" with a dog, sometimes you have to change things around to get to a better place. Personally, I trust our internal medicine specialist much more than the op here. 

My dog is currently on one of those foods that Sable would put down in an instant. However, prior to being on this food, he could go no more than 24 hrs without soft stool/diarrhea. Now that he's been on his current food, we're at about 3 months of totally solid stool, 24/7. Even during the most stressful of events. I'd say the change of food was worth it


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Gaines burgers were so full of dye . I had a dog that I was looking after while a friend was in hospital . The dog would poop on my wooden deck . Holy cow . The first time the stool was nose ripping awful stench -- and when scraped off left a semi-permanent red stain on the wooden deck. Meanwhile at the same time my dogs were being fed chicken frames from a kosher chicken butcher on Spadina , south of College (for our Toronto / Ontario members). I would travel on the street car with a trundle buggy to get 25 to 50 pounds of chicken at a time.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs





carmspack said:


> Good point . I think we all experienced that . But there is a reason why some 40 years later the experience is not the same . Look at Pottenger's cats The Pottenger Cat Studies a study I am sure familiar to many. Now we have unheard of young pups, 8 to 10 weeks of age already having digestive problems , symptoms of allergies , when they , and their parents, grandparents, great grandparents , and on and on have had successful generations of not really fed appropriately, it does have an affect on the future generations.
> This involves epigenetics, how outside influences of environment and nutrition change genetics. Study Finds Evidence of Genetic Response to Diet - New York Times It is why some cultures have difficulty with foods.
> So each generation has had a decline in over all health .
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for sharing this!
As a fellow Toronto member, an especially big thank you for the hint on the butchers.
A question though, does the Kosher chicken frames do anything different? Or is it just a personal butcher preference that you had?

Thanks again.


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