# cesar millan



## tyler (Dec 2, 2008)

i have watched the dog whisperer before and have been impressed.why do so many people dislike him? his method seems to work and in a short period of time? victoria stillwell doesnt seem so great anyways. why do people like victoria over cesar?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Cesar's the man... where you basing this off of?


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## tyler (Dec 2, 2008)

well i have heard this from friends( who are dog trainers) and from threads from here


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

There are many many great trainers who really dislike Millan, for good reason. His methods are based primarily on force - a tight, choking collar/leash up high on the neck, forcing the dog into compliance, forcing dogs into fearful situations in order to "flood" them into helpless submission, alpha rolling, etc. He does all of this with a captivating grin and a charismatic attitude and people fall for it, even though his techniques border on abuse.

The only things he advocates that are any good are that dogs should be exercised (although not to the point of exhaustion, which is what he sometimes demonstrates) and that dogs need leadership (although leadership can be established through controlling resources like food, toys, etc. instead of force and pain). Other than that, he's the typical "old school" dog trainer who relies primarily on his ability to choke the dog into submission without any true understanding of dog behavior or mentality. He hasn't offered anything to the dog community that is new or is even based on truly knowing dog behavior. Anyone with the physical ability to hurt a dog could train like Millan. Heck, I'm not nearly as strong as him and yet 20 years ago when I first started training, I choked dogs into submission. I didn't know anything but the uneducated public was impressed because dogs listened to me (of course, they were AFRAID of me too). Luckily I matured and evolved past the whole "force the dog into compliance" methods and learned how to understand and work WITH the dog instead of just using brute force.

I haven't seen the Victoria Stilwell show, but have heard it discussed. She's more of a dog behaviorist, with true understanding of how a dog thinks and learns. She doesn't depend on pain and force to push a dog into submission. I think it's likely that they've gone a bit overboard in her show trying to make it flashy and entertaining, but at least she's not choking dogs while smiling into the camera.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I can only speak for myself, but I like both, Cesar's show and training methods, much more than Victoria. Cesar's methods are more hands on and physical which I prefer to use, but I think the best training methods really depend on the individual dog. Different strokes for different folks... or dogs.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't like Cesar's methods mainly because the reasoning behind them is flawed and also because the methods he chooses to use have a big potential to backfire. 
That and when I have seen him describing a dog's "feelings" what he is describing and what I am reading from the dog's body language do not match, which leads me to assume he either does not know how to read their body language or he is purposefully misinterpreting it.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I like watching all trainers - Cesar Millan, Victoria Stillwell, the trainers on DogTown, and so on, and so forth. It's interesting to see how different trainers approach different things. 

I find that there are some things I see that I agree with and that I would use; and there are some things I see that I disagree with and would never use on a dog. I try to take away what works in some situations and for some dogs, and leave what I think is a bunch of nonsense. I have not yet found a trainer that I've liked without question and I've not yet found one that had nothing to offer at all.

There are plenty of things I disagree with about Cesar Millan's methods, and I think IliamnasQuest has addressed almost all of them. There's plenty I don't like about Victoria Stillwell, either.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Cesar's a clever showman, but his psychological terminology does not jive with the science that behaviorists and ethologists have worked so hard to compile and create over the past 35 years or so, creating a new school of training, which employs those lessons.

So basically it's force or compulsion based training, and thus considered "old school." He floods to overcome fear, another forceful method. When he first came out, the behaviorists protested and implored NGC to can the show, but money talks, so now they bemoan his show sets the mentality of training back a couple or few decades.

Basically, he's an ex-groomer beast master, laughing all the way to the bank, an activity few behaviorists are likely to do. The controversy is not likely to die off anytime soon.

Personally, I think if he wasn't so charming and did not sound like Ricky Ricardo, he'd just be another old school yank and crank "trainer"
struggling to survive.


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## BrennasMom (Mar 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI don't like Cesar's methods mainly because the reasoning behind them is flawed and also because the methods he chooses to use have a big potential to backfire.
> That and when I have seen him describing a dog's "feelings" what he is describing and what I am reading from the dog's body language do not match, which leads me to assume he either does not know how to read their body language or he is purposefully misinterpreting it.


I agree, I've seen him alpha roll a dog and boast when it stops fighting that it is now 'calm-submissive.' Meanwhile the dog is lying on the floor hyperventilating, eyes bugging out of it's head, mouth pulled back tight, a very fearful expression. Yes, the dog stopped fighting but there's no way you can look at it and say it's calm.


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## Horses'N'Hounds (Dec 21, 2008)

I just have to hi-jack slightly...this sounds SOOO much like the debates that go on in the horse world (especially dressage). Amazing how similar the training debates are between species.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

One day, he will roll the wrong dog and lack a larynx


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: HistorianI like watching all trainers - Cesar Millan, Victoria Stillwell, the trainers on DogTown, and so on, and so forth. It's interesting to see how different trainers approach different things.
> 
> I find that there are some things I see that I agree with and that I would use; and there are some things I see that I disagree with and would never use on a dog. I try to take away what works in some situations and for some dogs, and leave what I think is a bunch of nonsense. I have not yet found a trainer that I've liked without question and I've not yet found one that had nothing to offer at all.
> 
> There are plenty of things I disagree with about Cesar Millan's methods, and I think IliamnasQuest has addressed almost all of them. There's plenty I don't like about Victoria Stillwell, either.


Excellent post!!! Could not have said it better.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3One day, he will roll the wrong dog and lack a larynx











I shouldnt laugh, but that struck me as funny. And true!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

We don't get to choose what our dogs need. If we hate the idea of working with food and a gadget-- but our dogs respond best to clickertraining-- we have to swallow this and read some Karen Pryor, go to a positive methods training class, etc. If we hate the idea of using a toy as a lure or bribe-- but our dog responds best to this-- we find a good play-training/sportdog trainer who uses a jute roll, a bumper, a ball on a rope, a dummy, a Kong, etc and accept this and do what the dog needs. 

I don't think Cesar's alpha roll idea is a smart one. I hate seeing his flooding of a scared dog-- even though I DO know that in the end, it _does _relieve the dog of the phobia/neurosis _in most cases_. Folks at home trying these methods? Also: NO.

However: I do agree with his "calm, assertive energy" and strong, calm, no-nonsense leadership ideas, as well as his formula of excersise-obedience-affection. *To be brutally, painfully honest, this type of guidance on regulating my OWN energy is exactly what GRIMM needs me to learn.* Yes-- _I_ am the weak link here. Grimm _needs_ me to take the calm, assertive leadership guidance to heart. When I do-- HE BECOMES CALMER and much, much more *relaxed*. In short-- I hate the fact that I cannot just use purely positive, easy clicker training methods only with my dog. <span style="color: #3333FF">But what my dog needs is more important than what I want</span>.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I would like to see him come out and do this to Ghost and Narys, I bet he won't survive 5 minutes with them with his methods. He only shows the dogs that he was able to work with, but never shows any failed attemps


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Patti, I couldn't agree with you more. You put into words what I was grappling with. I believe that we humans are just about always the "weak link", and are the ones who need the most work. Having said that, I think most of us realize that watching a TV show isn't supposed to be a substitute for on the job learning, and there are disclaimers at the end of these shows warning against it....... it's Television, and as such has to be "entertaining" in part for people to watch it. You take the best parts and leave the rest......and then hopefully go off and find a trainer who is right for you AND your dog. 

I will say this - I have seen more abuse on the local club level (Schutzhund) than I ever have on either of the shows mentioned here. And of course it goes without saying that these people wouldn't be caught dead watching either Cesar or Victoria........

_______________________________________________

Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - at the Bridge


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Some of you have this backwards, Cesar is a dog behaviorist, he tells you he's not a dog trainer. Victoria Stilwell is a dog trainer. 

I am probably one of the biggest wimps there is when it comes to seeing an animal being hurt, I can't stand it. I cry watching the animal rescue shoes. I have no doubt that I'm one of the most suspicious people there is walking the face of the earth. 

I am also a huge Cesar fan. I do not see Cesar hurting the dogs he rehabilitates, if I saw him inflicting pain it would be the end of my fan-ship and belief in his ways. He taught me you don't need to use force with a dog, something that I personally never made a practice of but was taught as I was growing up. 

The only dogs I've seen him pin down that had bug-eyes, had the bug-eyes before they went down because it's part of the dog's breed charactaristics. He doesn't choke them any more than another dog would be choking them under the same circumstances. To me they look like they're breathing hard because they're pooped not afraid. If they were afraid, they'd be trying to look away and they don't. They remind me of a wrestler who's finally called "uncle!" and hits the matt in order to catch his breath. Because of what some people have said I have actually TRIED to see fear in the dogs he works with because I don't want to be a blind follower kind of thing, and I'm not seeing it.

As for flooding for fears, I myself have a phobia and something like flooding is probably something I could use a good dose of to cure me. Coming from someone who lives every day with a phobia (one that I might add has almost killed me AND my children at one time or another), yes, would be traumatic to be flooded but then the phobia would be GONE! Believe me, if you had a phobia of your own it is NO WAY TO LIVE. If you had your choice of a few moments of fear and then a lifetime free of your phobia OR living with your phobia the rest of your life - which would you choose? Remember, dogs move on much more quickly than humans. Where we would remember the flooding of ourselves, within a very brief period of time, dogs would not.

If it weren't for Cesar, I would no doubt have one less dog because I would not have known that being calm in a hazardous situation would help me save one of my dog's lives.

When I look at Cesar's own pack, they don't look scared or abused to me. Heck, my dogs should be so scared and abused!

There's supposed to be a right and wrong way to use a prong collar. I've been using one, but not because I like it nor do I believe in them, but only because I had to. As soon as I find something else that works I will stop. Any kind of collar, prong or otherwise, has potential to hurt or kill a dog because it's a device used around the dog's neck where all the breathing mechanics are located. I'm one that no one will ever convince that a collar is totally safe, prong or not but particularly prong. For me right now, it's nothing more than a necessary evil that I'm really hoping I can do away with one day.

Brightelf - I agree. I had heard of clicker training some time ago but never checked it out because I didn't want to mess with the additional equipment and the little bit I knew of it all I could think of was "Oh puh-leez - give me a break - what's a clicker going to do that my voice can't?"

Well, guess who's now using a clicker and treats because she's been frustrated with some issues that just weren't working and got to the point that she'd try just about anything short of cruelty ... and now these same dogs are responding to things they didn't before, because of the clicker. Kind of a bummer to have them "listen" to a clicker over the sound of Mom's voice but heh, I'll make like a dog and move on.

Anja1Blue - I have never seen any Schutzund activities/events up close and personal, only a few videos on YouTube. I do not like the part where they're striking the dog with the stick or whatever it's called. In a way it does seem a bit barbaric but on the other hand there are some really cool visuals to watch in this sport. I love to watch bite work in action for instance.

Chuck - Not saying your dogs might not be a first, but on other hand - some people have said the same thing you have, and lost their bet. 

Cesar has been able to start an awareness about dog problems that are directly related to their owners. People always blame the dog when it misbehaves according to human standards. Our society has been putting down dogs that have bitten for centuries. Cesar has shown us that #1 it's not always necessary to put a dog down for biting - it may be a dog that can be rehabilitated and #2 misbehaving dog behavior is more than likely related to it's owner and as owners we need to learn what our responsibilities are and more importantly - live up to them. 

I think the concept of dog behavior and dog behaviorists is something quite new to most of the world even if it's been around for umpteen years, I don't think the majority of people know about it nor do they understand/comprehend there's a difference between dog training and dog behavior.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Cesar is not a behaviorist. A behaviorist has a PhD in animal behavior. Cesar is a dog walker/groomer who found he had an art of BS'ing people while forcing their dogs into compliance. He has NO formal training or expertise - he's simply found that he can force dogs into obeying him .. and people choose to believe he's some sort of mystic when in truth he shows every day how little he truly knows about dog behavior.

I've never seen him NOT use force and compulsion on the dogs he handles, regardless of what they're doing. His training tool of choice seems to be whatever he can find that will easily choke the dog, and he puts it right behind the ears where the throat is the most sensitive. And I've seen him choke dogs to the point where they're laying on the ground, gasping for air.

Karen Pryor, John Rogerson, John Fisher, Ian Dunbar - these are behaviorists and you wouldn't see them choking a dog like that. And I myself have worked with hundreds of dogs, many aggressive dogs, and have found that there are gentle, fair ways to change the dog's behavior without flooding or forcing. Yes, some dogs get stressed some but then these are dogs that are generally stressed anyway.

I've turned dogs around that were biting, snapping, nasty things and never choked them once. I've taught umpteen owners how to be a strong, caring, kind leader without having to create a fear/respect in their dogs. These are things that CAN be done without harshness, and yet trainers like Millan are out there choking and yanking and rolling dogs. 

I hate seeing Cesar with his pack of dogs on their concrete jungle. They look so miserable. They are fearful and show those fear behaviors with lowered heads, lowered ears, tails down or tucked, corners of their mouths tight - just not "happy to see you" kind of body language. Yes, they approach him .. and I've seen abused dogs do the same thing to the person who abused them. They come up with body languages saying "please don't hurt me, please be kind" in hopes of having a different relationship. What surprises me (and saddens me too) is that so many people don't SEE the behavior these dogs offer and don't recognize it for the fearful behavior it is. I haven't seen a single episode of Millan's show that didn't have dogs show major fear signs. He causes pain, pain causes fear, fear causes dogs to shut down and become - in his words - "calm and submissive" (translation: scared to do anything). 

Millan is simply what trainers used to be 20-30 years ago before people started thinking more about dogs being companions and not just possessions. He's charismatic and evidently that's enough for people to allow him to treat their dogs harshly. But he's exactly what trainers are when they don't evolve through constant learning and observation. He's the neanderthal of the dog training world. And I wouldn't let him on the property here, let alone allow him anywhere near one of my dogs. I care about my dogs and the wonderful relationship I have with them far too much to take the risk that this macho-brained dog handler might do something to hurt one of them. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3One day, he will roll the wrong dog and lack a larynx


I hope they air that episode - uncut!!!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Copypaste from my post in the Victoria thread:

Cesar is not a behaviorist. Watch a REAL behaviorist, someone who TRULY understands psychology (not "dog psychology"), all the different parts of learning, operant and classical conditioning, positive reinforcement/punishment, negative reinforcement/punishment, someone who truly knows how to work WITH the dog rather than break it down, THEN you will understand what a behaviorist is and what Cesar is not. Don't get me wrong, he's done some good things and yes, he has made it so people get off their duffs and work with their dogs, but he's missing a lot on his plate. Dogs don't just need physical exercise, they need MENTAL exercise and this is something big he never mentions yet it's something that everyone savvy in animal husbandry understands as crucial. Zoos make a HUGE deal of mental stimulation for their animals. All the physical exercise in the world won't solve problems due to a bored mind. Victoria does stress mental workouts more.

Word of caution: there are many so-called "behaviorists" out there who don't know their rear from their front. A good trainer who understands psychology and canine behavior is all that is needed. Boy, is Cesar off his mark, especially with those alpha rolls.

------

Actually, I think one day his clients will roll the wrong dog and THEY will end up dead. Cesar has very good reactions, he's a very strong guy, I think he can handle himself if the dog decides to alpha roll HIM. I'm waiting for one of his 40 year old soccer mom clients to alpha roll the neighbor's rottie. Or, all deities forbid, a CHILD attempt this.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:They are fearful and show those fear behaviors with lowered heads, lowered ears, tails down or tucked, corners of their mouths tight - just not "happy to see you" kind of body language.


YES. His dogs rarely look "happy." They really look like someone whose spirit's been broken, someone who is waiting for that other shoe to drop. They look as though merely moving about and panting could get them rolled on their backs.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:if I saw him inflicting pain it would be the end of my fan-ship and belief in his ways.


What about mental pain? Remember the jindo episode? The dog fought so hard and had the crap literally scared out of him (yes, that was on tape and on the episode). He finally gave up because he figured he was going to die so he might as well submit as his last chance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have never seen his show. His book was ok. I guess it simply stressed that dogs are dogs, people have to be the leaders, calm and assertive, and dogs need excersize and leadership. I don't have a problem with that thinking. 

I am also not completely against using a choke chain or prong collar and giving a dog a correction. I like the idea of all positive training and prefer to set my dogs up to succeed and then praise them. But a leash pop with a follow up of praise when the dog is back in the position and focussed seems to be reasonable when the dog has a basic understanding of what it needs to do. 

I am my dogs' owner. They are not perfect. Sometimes I have to grab Dubya by the scruff of the neck to redirect him to his kennel when he is barking and lunging at the Kitty on the other side of the gate. Sometimes I have to tell my dogs more than once to be quiet. Sometimes I want to KILL Whitney when she starts going with her high pitched screamy bark. We generally get scores of 80 to 95 in Rally -- 98 once, no 100s. Arwen got all blue ribbons in obedience but she was certainly not perfect -- I do not even remember the scores. 

But my dogs are HAPPY. They do not fear me -- yes, yes I TELL them I am the Queen of Sheba, but they aren't completely convinced of that. When I tell them down, five of my six bitches go down, the sixth needs a special invitation. 

I guess I know I am not the best leader out there, so reading and watching others I try to learn. I take what I can stomach and try to incorporate it. I have purchased prongs and haltis and choke chains and even a shock collar (which I have been too wimpy to try) and have considered them with a semi-open mind. 

If alpha rolls and choking a dog is required to reach a higher level of leadership in my pack, I will pass. I find it hard to comprehend that people with one or two dogs have so much trouble with them. But then I remember my first dog. 

Cesar's book goes into his background and the attitudes about dogs where he comes from. Animals are not in the house much less on the bed and furniture. Dogs are not viscious, they know their place, there is harmony. I guess I give him credit for pulling himself up, figuring out a way to get here, albeit illegally, but then making himself legal. His story is inspirational really. That doesn't mean I have to agree with him or his methods.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

So many posts and comments. As for the so-called behavorists. I hired one to work with my German Shepherd, and because he is a working line European dog her advice was it was fine to let Timber chase squirrels, rabbits, deer, etc. As she said, just part of the dog's nature.

Guess what, the dog hasn't figured out is the difference between a jogger and a deer. Some, who do not believe tough training in some respects is helpful need to open up a bit.

Every dog is different, and I now have three. But my smartest, and easiest to train is the same dog that needs too be re-trained because of my stupidity in listening this so-called specialist, who told me Timber chasing animals was part of his instinct and that was fine. And yes, she is well known worldwide, very expensive, and via personal E Mail I will tell you why to avoid her.

As for Caesar, I would also like him to work with my guy. Because 99 percent of the time the dog is perfect. But every now and then he goes off after a person, and clearly that needs to be changed. I wonder how Caesar would deal with that issue.

Overall, I think both Caesar's shows and Victoria's provide decent advice.

As for the behavior specialists and trainers, the toughest job is finding a good one. My dog is now working with a guy that trains German Shepherds for a large police department. He has been very helpful with our aggressive rescues (I do rescue Work), and some might describe his methods as a bit rough, albeit he would disagree.

As for those that imply you shoud be never be tough on a dog, I disagree.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

We took our two to a local degreed behaviorist. It was a waste of time and a sizeable chunk of money. 

I don't believe for one minute and never will that a piece of paper that says you have a PHD or whatever, automatically qualifies a person to do any job right. In some instances, experience and inborn talent goes a far ways well and above a degree. I've seen to many college grads get jobs just because they have a degree even though they don't have a clue, that would be better performed by someone with experience and no degree. On the other hand, to many more than qualified, experienced people are passed up for the same job just because they don't have a degree. 

Telling me to watch a behaviorist because that behaviorist has as PHD doesn't mean that person knows what they're doing. I am not impressed in the least with letters and credentials after names. I work in a place where people are not only hired but promoted JUST because they have a degree. If that person shows me that they know what they're doing - I'm all eyes and ears. Waving a sheepskin in my face means absolutely nothing and in fact is a total turn off.

We also hired a local (very expensive) professional trainer that came highly recommended and that trains K9's and we are very disappointed in the results. I won't go into details nor will I give out the name to anyone so please don't ask. We may not be happy with the results, but I'm not going to badmouth the man nor will I recommend him. I'm sure for some people he does a wonderful job because he's got many happy customers. He was just the wrong trainer type for my dog.

No matter what the specialty is, people practicing it will find fault with someone who is in the same line of work but does things differently than they do. Everyone with a specialty (no matter what it is) feels their way is the right way and some go so far as to condemn the ones who don't follow their own protocol.

Some feel Cesar uses brute force and is too physical with the dogs. I find using a prong collar and jerking a dog with it to be brute force and can produce the same results that some of you have mentioned they see as what Cesar does. A collar is worn around the neck of a dog where all the breathing mechanisms are. If you are one that uses a prong collar or some other kind of physical means to train your dogs, I urge you to look at your ways and compare them with Cesar's and other physical ways. You may find you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. I am one that doesn't always see things I do that others do see. Maybe you are, too.

Timber1, I don't know what your actual definition of being tough on a dog includes and I'm not asking you to give details. I'm not criticizing when I say I'll venture a guess I'd probably be one that wouldn't like it and I would also *probably* think that your trainer's methods as more than just rough. I understand that if your dog is about to hurt someone, you must stop them and if that means a bit of roughness then that's what has to happen. The trainer that worked w/our dog also trains police dogs. Having gained new knowledge since then and now looking back, I feel his methods are NOT what my dog needed and I can't imagine putting the two of them together again for any training. I too, must re-train after dropping a bucket of money and being disappointed in the results.

Melanie, I have several of Karen Pryor's books and have started clicker training. I have not heard of the other behaviorists you mentioned but I will do some research, thanks for the names. I am curious to know your training ideas for turning a dog around and find your translation of calm and submissive to be very interesting.

I've seen the Jindo episode several times and see the Jindo as being no different from some very obstinant person who refuses to see any given issue in another light. Nobody else can have a good, workable idea. Their way is right, everyone else is wrong. I don't see that Cesar did anything to scare nor harm him. He just stayed with him calmly until the dog was pooped out and realized he was not going to win every battle. Cesar calmly held the leash, he didn't jerk the dog around like some people with their dogs on a collar, he didn't yell at him or hit him. Although I am trying, I don't see mental harm as having been done to the dog(s) either. 

I'm really trying to see some of the points of views some of you have mentioned, especially in your negative comments about Cesar. As I said, I don't want to be a blind person in "follow the guru mode." I want what's best for me and my dogs and I know I've made (expensive!) mistakes that now I must correct. There are days I don't want to read about or listen to ANY more trainers or behaviorists or other GSD people because all the info has become information-overload, it makes my head spin and I don't know what direction is best to take. I know I'm trying to hard and I somehow need to relax.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMWatch a REAL behaviorist, someone who TRULY understands psychology (not "dog psychology"), all the different parts of learning, operant and classical conditioning, positive reinforcement/punishment, negative reinforcement/punishment, someone who truly knows how to work WITH the dog rather than break it down, THEN you will understand what a behaviorist is and what Cesar is not.


Suggestions as to who I could have a look at?



> Quote:Boy, is Cesar off his mark, especially with those alpha rolls.


I've seen a number of people comment negatively on the rolls. I don't do it myself but I'm curious. Forgive me for being a dummy but what is the big deal with this anyway? Why are so many of you so negative about it? I can see where there would be an element of danger for the person involved, but why do ya all feel it's hurting the dog? I'd never heard of this until I started watching Cesar and came here to these boards so consider it "training a puppy" and help me understand if you would please. Thanks.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:
> I don't believe for one minute and never will that a piece of paper that says you have a PHD or whatever, automatically qualifies a person to do any job right.


I totally, wholeheartedly, absolutely AGREE.











> Quote:Telling me to watch a behaviorist because that behaviorist has as PHD doesn't mean that person knows what they're doing.


I surely am not. Any trainer, regardless of qualification, needs to be checked out thoroughly. Mine has trained and competed in AKC and schutzhund, has worked with breeds from all groups, raised and bred rotties, had a plethora of difficult breeds, and she's told stories of how she's handled some really rough cases (what Cesar would call full-on "Red Zone"). She's darn good. If we move, I'll have to find a way to take her with me!







She trains motivationally and positively yet knows exactly when to implement corrections, the level of correction for the situation and the level of correction for a dog. It's never too little or too much, it's always at the dog's working level. For Renji, he is as stubborn as a cattle dog and we have to work with lots of rewards and motivational methods but we also have to use some pretty rough corrections, especially when he's getting too focused (in addition to moving away). She understands this and has encouraged me to use more corrections as necessary, in essence, "Don't let him get away with it." As Ed Frawley says, "One good correction is better than a thousand nagging ones," but I don't want to frighten the bejeezus out of my dog.

Riley's Mom, some of the best would be Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar. In my area, the trainer in my signature is very awesome and yes, she has earned her psych/behavior degree many times over.







Working with a real trainer who understands behavior makes everything she says about training a "duh moment" in that it makes so much sense to me and also to Renji. It's so natural!



> Quote:but what is the big deal with this anyway? Why are so many of you so negative about it?


Even wolves do not "alpha roll." The submissive wolf WILLINGLY places itself in that position. A dominant wolf does it to a subordinate if it wants to kill it, not dominate it. Dogs immediately freeze up when they are in an alpha roll because they're panicked and think they're about to be beaten up or killed. However, some dogs will fight back out of fright or fight back because they are pissed, and many people have tried an alpha roll only to end up missing parts of their faces or hands. So firstly, it goes against the natural behavior and communication of the dog and second, it is highly dangerous for BOTH parties; if the dog rightly fights back and the owner gets hurt, the owner will end up paying a hospital bill and most likely a euthanization bill.

What Cesar demonstrates that I *love* is body-blocking and taking ownership with your body. THIS is a behavior that dogs understand very well! Just move between object and dog, don't threaten it, don't say anything to it, just move between and "take ownership." Very rarely will a dog fight that, though I have had it happen to me where a family member's dog did try to go after my feet in one last, valiant attempt before giving up and moving away. So again, none of these are without risk, but my socked and shoed feet and covered legs were a lot safer than my bare fingers and face, plus the dogs totally understand body blocks and ownership by simply moving in calmly yet firmly.

I do think some of Cesar's methods are a good part of any training program, especially HOW CALM he remains; many people (yes, including me), forget to remain calm and cool. I can jazz up my dog in all the wrong moments and I often have to remind myself to calm down, talk quieter and slower, praise smoothly and slowly. Cesar does great with explaining the differences in "energy" and calm vs insecure. And yes, if his methods turn around dogs that would otherwise have found the needle, that's wonderful, but his methods are being used by amateurs without his training or ANY training, without the timing and his presence (his energy), in all the wrong moments, stuff will go wrong. Either the poor dog will be so confused or it will fight back. Also, he does NOT tailor his methods to fit puppies. The episode with the beagle puppy was really depressing- he was treating normal puppy antics as he would a fully mature adult dog. Rather than smack the owners for leaving stuff all over the place for an UNSUPERVISED puppy to chew, he basically extinguishes all the wonderfully excited and happy puppy energy.









There really is no one person or method I follow. For every dog it would be different. For Renji, I have my mix of methods that works pretty well but I'm always tweaking. If you've had success with your dog, that's wonderful. While some trainers and methods may not be right for every dog, I think most of Cesar's methods are best left to the "last hope" cases, where everything else has been tried and the dog is about to be euthanized.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMRiley's Mom, some of the best would be Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar.


I'll add Jean Donaldson to your list, and for a perfect example of someone with an amazing intuitive understanding of animal behavior, and no fancy letters after her name, Suzanne Clothier.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't have much in common with CM at all, but I always hear the same names mentioned as to who to follow. 

I saw some of McConnels dogs a long time ago, I do believe she knows what she's doing and talking about. I've read a bunch of her stuff and I do like and respect her. Never seen anything from Dunbar, but agree he has written some good stuff. Same for Pryor, haven't seen, but think she's written some good stuff.

But Donaldson???? That is someone I put in the "writes pretty and talks a good game" but I have only ever seen poor Obedience at best from her dogs and recently saw that video of her using leg humping as a reward where she was grabbing the skin around the face so her bitch could get "better traction" and made comments about her dog going to pass out from humping so long, and just had to ask







??? I"m sorry, but if you're going to be an "expert" at least train your own dogs to something at least near "passable" levels in obedience. She makes money by making people feel warm and gushy inside and writing books about a "revolutionary" dog training and enlightenment. That's a good thing, cause from what i've witnessed she can't train a real dog in real life to do anything.

Suzanne, I like to read her stuff, I think she's got her head on right. 

So, anybody got any videos of these other people doing things with their dogs? I"ve always been curious as to what they've trained them to do.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with crackem. I love S. Clothier, like McConnels and Dunbar and not totally like Pryor, but I recognize the importance she had opening eyes on her time. But Donalson... I've only read "Culture Clash", but I find her philosophy... interesting.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments on your feelings of the various behaviorists. I do have some Patricia McConnell books but haven't read them yet, concentrating on the clicker books right now. I see a theme/vote for Patricia McConnell so I will consider her to be one of the good ones. This kind of feedback tells uneducated people like me which really ARE the good ones, PHD or not <g>.

I've started to watch Cesar with a more "critical" eye trying to see where he may be hurting the dogs (physically or mentally) and the dogs body language if it seems fearful or what ever. I still believe he's got a gift and I'm glad he's sharing it. I'd have never known about the body blocking and a few other things were it not for him. Pack mentality is something totally new to me as of about 2 years ago. 

I still believe and probably always will that he helped save Nissa's life because I would have never known what to do in that circumstance had it not been for him. 

I'm sure he's not perfect, but then neither is any other dog trainer, behaviorist or psychologist. I still truly believe Cesar is NOT a trainer, he may not be a PHD or considered a true behaviorist by some, but he does deal with dog psychology, which is a topic I never knew existed until I started watching him. I have had dogs all my life and until I got the two I have now, I have realized I knew absolutely pretty much NOTHING about dogs other than things like sit, stay etc and that dog TRAINING is NOT all there is one needs to know. I do believe that were it not for him, I would have had to give up my male long ago because he is so dominant and was starting to believe he's "to much dog" for me. Because of Cesar I do know that it's ME that needs to do more to be a Pack Leader. I am also starting to see how clicker training can help me do this. He's learning through clicker training where other training was failing. 

There's never going to be a day when all people believe the same thing no matter what it is. There will always be methods that work for some dogs and not for others. People need to find what works for their dogs as long as they are not hurting them physically or mentally. I also think people will always differ in their interpretation of what IS physical and mental pain or suffering.

I still believe he's bringing an awareness to the world that just because a dog bites does not mean it has to be put down. Rehabilitating a dog is also a new and exciting terminology and thought process for me as it is for many I'm sure. 

But it's also important to realize and understand that one needs to rely on more than one method and one person's ways in order to be successful with one's own dogs.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I saw the episode last night with the resource-guarding vizsla. Poor thing was scared before but with Cesar it was scared out of its skin. It was throwing out all the calming signals that exist in the world because it clearly feared for its life. But it was very cool that the dog ended up enjoying swimming and they did demonstrate how to make nail time fun. 



> Quote:There's never going to be a day when all people believe the same thing no matter what it is.


Thank goodness, else this world be droll and boring.



> Quote:Rehabilitating a dog is also a new and exciting terminology and thought process for me as it is for many I'm sure.


"Rehabilitating" a dog as he uses the word is actually just being a good trainer and handler for the majority of cases. Nothing more, nothing less. But it is great marketing. You know, one thing he doesn't ever mention is health checkups. What if the dog is aggro due to health? What if it has Rage Syndrome? What if the poor dog is forced to live with its pain and hide its pain after undergoing the Cesar treatment? I sure hope he has the animals medically checked before diving in.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=598586&page=1

Now THAT is a rehab. A very much ongoing one.


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

> Quote: Now THAT is a rehab. A very much ongoing one.


Wow - what a humbling and inspiring thread. Christi is amazing.


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## wildwolf60 (Apr 13, 2001)

I for one really like Cesar's methods. I do not see him abusing the dogs he is working on. If I had thought he was abusing them, I would not be watching his show! As a matter of fact, I have used a couple of his methods to teach my 'kids' to behave better! I used to have a problem with them rushing out the door ahead of me, nothing I did seemed to make a difference. Once I started using the 'tch!" noise, they took note and started paying attention. 
As for choking the dogs, well, if you note seeing the owners trying to control the dogs with sheer force as they're being dragged down the street, I think Cesar's methods are the much better alternative! Not to mention, some of those dogs act so aggressive, you need something to break that pattern and stop that cycle of snapping, growling, biting. He always releases immediately when they respond so I don't see any abuse there. He's never hit a dog or yelled at one, and I see that the dogs seem much more relaxed and I don't see any fear in their behavior. 
Untill I see otherwise, I'm still a Cesar fan!


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