# Questioning Instructors...



## wildo

Well I've done it. I didn't want to, but I decided to question my instructor on why we won't be advancing to Beginner II. I'm trying hard not to create yet another rant thread (of which are _so_ popular on this forum), but man- tonight's class was pathetic. I've never seen so many pathetic dogs with pathetic owners trying to force the pathetic dogs to "do agility." This one chick in class literally alpha rolls her dog after every obstacle. Tonight, we had to pause class multiple times, for many minutes each time because the dog would no longer come to her. When it finally did mousy on over to her, sure enough it had ears back, a backwards posture, and tail tucked. And yes- alpha roll, every time. Ugh!

And then this other lady's dog has absolutely zero obedience. None- what so ever. I've never seen a dog with a 0% recall. Seriously- this dog can't be trusted off lead, and pulls so hard on lead the owner can't contain him. Multiple times tonight we stopped class to try to fetch the "runaway" dog. Ugh!

Ok, so I guess this did turn into a rant thread. Well- whatever. I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated to have to wait so long for my turn while these other unfocused dogs are screwing around. Go train your bleppity-bleepin' dogs people. THEN come back and think about agility. I'm ready to move into a class with some more serious folk.

So anywho.... Yeah, I asked my instructor _specifically_ where it is we need to put in more work in order to set ourselves up for advancement. I think I've said it before on here- I am in no hurry. But I do want to be rewarded for hard work, and time spent... We'll see what she says. Tonight was such a pathetic class........


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## KZoppa

wonder if the instructor even wants to bump you guys up. You seem to have a clue. Without you there.... how can they say they're doing a good job? Hope everything works out and you get bumped to a better class that has their stuff together. that sounds really frustrating!


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## wildo

On a lighter note- Pimg got to (finally) try a dog walk for the first time ever. It was set kinda high for the first time- probably around five feet. Pimg hesitated only in the very center for only a split second. Otherwise she was confident and composed. She also got to take some more runs across the teeter (which she is truly rocking) and the A-Frame (which she is rather carelessly sprinting across- we need to work on this for focus and purpose). All said, she's showing really great stuff when it comes to contacts. I'm very proud of her!


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## JakodaCD OA

it sounds like your instructors are not getting to 'involved' with their students. 

For one, the alpha rolling thing, would NOT take place in any class I've been to or instructed There is no reason to correct a dog in agility where things are supposed to be FUN and upbeat to alpha roll a dog...BAD INSTRUCTOR !!

second,,sure dogs occasionally are going to blow off their owners, however a dog with NO recall, belongs ON leash and/or should be required to take an obedience class.

Third, Pimg should NOT have done a full height dogwalk for her first venture..Again, BAD INSTRUCTOR!!

I feel your frustration, I would be mighty frustrated to. Do you have any other agility classes in your area?

Check this site, I believe they have listings for agility classes in different areas.
www.cleanrun.com and/or www.matchshowbulletin.com


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## BlackPuppy

Is this the only place in your area for agility classes? I don't see how this can be a positive experience for anybody.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

If that was the quality of the agility classes in my area, I'd much rather do it on my own. You can create your own DIY agility course and teach the obstacles at your own pace. 

My agility instructor would've kicked out that idiot alpha-rolling owner a long, long time ago. PR training is SO important in agility, IMO. You want the dog to WANT to do agility. Pushing them too hard or too fast can be disasterous.


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## AgileGSD

This is the reason I try to avoid entry level agility classes (or really, as of late any agility classes). I have had dogs who became reactive after attending entry level agility and being repeatedly run up and pounced on by poorly behaved dogs which had no business being in agility class. Always, if your dog is good and does well you get very little time while the owners with dogs who have no attention and won't come when called get the bulk of the class time. Most of the good instructors in my area started agility when I did and while they may have gotten more titles or noticed than me, I know just as well as they do how to train agility. The rest of the instructors are much newer to agility than me. I'm lucky enough to be able to train my dogs on my own in my back yard and work the dogs during free time at our training club or during the 4H classes I teach - not sure what I'd do if that wasn't the case!

It sounds to me that you might need to find a new training facility though, since you seem fairly disappointed in the class you are taking.


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## Lin

Is this at pawsitive?


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## Rerun

Lin said:


> Is this at pawsitive?


yes


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## Rerun

So frustrating. I really wanted to take classes with Dante, but it seems no one is worth going to for agility classes. I may just sign him up for it at FF and do it myself. I could build a course in the backyard but where's the fun in that? I like the group atmosphere.... I had high hopes wildos experience at PP would go well, sorry wildo, you were my guinea pig.....but it sounds like they aren't worth going to either.


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## Rerun

We should just build a course in our backyard and ya'll can come practice with me and we can watch videos and read books and train our dogs ourselves.


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## Lin

Yea I had wanted to try out pawsitive as well, such a shame. I found them when I was living up in Lafayette and was considering driving down for the classes but never did it. I considered it again when I moved down here, but it was put on the back burner especially since I don't know if *I* could handle agility lol. I still had them in my possibilities though!


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## wildo

Rerun said:


> So frustrating. I really wanted to take classes with Dante, but it seems no one is worth going to for agility classes. I may just sign him up for it at FF and do it myself. I could build a course in the backyard but where's the fun in that? I like the group atmosphere.... I had high hopes wildos experience at PP would go well, sorry wildo, you were my guinea pig.....but it sounds like they aren't worth going to either.


Surprised to say I agree with your opinion on this...  :toasting:

...But yes, it is frustrating. The instructor has plenty of experience training agility (though she's never trained a GSD), but I just think she is fairly non-confrontational. She was clearly frustrated last night, but (unlike me) she's able to maintain her composure and continue class. I thought it was BS all around. As AgileGSD pointed out- it is absolutely the case that the "good" dogs in class get very little time while the "POS dogs" (my title) get all the attention. It's very frustrating. I remember a couple times last night specifically thinking to myself, "WTF, is this some private lesson or something?? I paid too..."

I just don't know. I've looked all around Indy for agility schools and this one is by far the best as far as facilities are concerned. And all of their instructors (maybe I should say- at least most) have MACH dogs. It's a really hard decision to make, training on my own. You know- even the little attention we get in class is beneficial. [Example- last night I kept dropping my shoulder in order to try to direct Pimg. Instead, I was instructed to make more effort in "drawing the path" with my extended arm. It worked great.] Is the cost of a class worth this? I dunno... it's debatable.

I also plan on building a full suite of agility equipment soon. To be honest, all I am waiting for right now is a dry yard. Right now it's just a massive mud pit. Once it dries up, I'll likely start knocking out some equipment.

Anyway- we'll see. I still haven't gotten a response from my instructor. I'm anxious to see what she has to say. I felt I was very non-confrontational in my message to her.


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## AgileGSD

Backyard training is the best!





Honestly, if you haven't even trained Pimg on all of the equipment I think worrying about the finer points of handling is getting a bit ahead of yourself. IMO trying to perfect handling while simultaneously training a new dog ruins a lot of dogs who have good potential. Nothing kills speed and drive quicker than having the owner worrying about their handling, stopping mid-sequence to fix their mistakes and/or reworking the sequence over and over to get it just right. I think people really over complicate agility training in some ways. 

If you do build your own equipment, you'll probably find more success with backyard training. Teach her to be confident on the equipment starting with appropriately lowered contacts and jumps and training weaves. Once she is confident and fast on that stuff, add in very easy and add in nearly fail proof (for both of you) sequences and teach her to _run_ with you. If she misses obstacles, no big deal - just keep running running. As she gains confidence and speed, you can slowly raise the contacts and jumps and work at perfecting the weaves. As you both improve, you can even make the sequences more challenging. Once you have a dog who is confident on the equipment and understands that agility is about performing obstacles in between running with you, you're ready to go to agility class. Only this time, instead of going to train yourself and your dog, you can go to fix your handling. This should put you in a more advanced class which (hopefully!) means a better quality of students and dogs participating. Also having a dog who fully understands her job will make learning the finer points of handling much easier for you. But even when you're learning handling skills, remember that agility is really about your dog running with you - stopping repeatedly to fix your mistakes very often will decrease the dog's speed. Instead, keep going for a couple obstacles, reward your dog _then_ go back and try the tricky part again.


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## wildo

Sounds like great advice! Thanks a lot!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Alpha rolling in agililty class? Unless my dog just went to kill another, that's not gonna happen in any class I attend. My instructor wouldn't allow it.

Can you continue to search for other classes in your area? And by 'area' you may have to broaden your search. I know I have to drive over an hour to my weekly classes but it's well worth it to have the best facility and instructor and NOT waste my time and money. Alot of time I add a hike or shopping in the same direction so it's more worth the trip.

If you can find agility TRIALS in your area, then there will also be a pool of students/instructors you can talk to about where they train. Clubs and/or classes. I know some of the best and smaller ones use more word of mouth or websites that aren't in the phone book.


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## wildo

Wanted to give an update. Like I said, I did send an email to my instructor, and I really didn't get a ton of feedback on it. Right before class started today, she pulled me aside and let me know that she did get my email and did plan on responding. She just hadn't yet found the time to do so at length (she did reply with just a few seemingly non-related comments- she was checking to see if I could make another class time). She ensured me that I wasn't out of line for questioning all this, and she was equally frustrated last class. She plans on responding at length to my questions and concerns. She has also already started conversations with the facility owner to start a new class (same night, just a bit earlier) to host some of the more "focused" dogs. This is really great news, and I'm very excited that she took my criticism seriously and respectfully. So we'll see what happens with that.

On another note- tonight's class was very, very awesome. Not really sure what was different (other than a few of the standard classmates weren't there). Class was upbeat and fun. I got lots of opportunities to really play around and have fun. I got to practice sends to single bar jumps (something we've been working on; handler separation) as well as plenty of bar jump sequencing. I mixed that in with some 2x2 weave pole and in spite of the fact we haven't practiced this at home (bad owner) Pimg started offering proper entries on her own! Of course I reenforced the crap out of that... What a great dog! We also started getting much more exposure to contact equipment. We got nearly endless runs over the a-frame, a few more runs over the dogwalk, and plenty of practice on the teeter. Pimg has started offering (not consistently) a 2on/2off on the teeter, and she is certainly impressing my instructor with that.

Overall- a truly fun night of agility! Oh- there was also two new GSDs in class. One black and tan very similar in size/structure as Pimg, and one smaller WGSD. Beautiful. As we were closing class, someone mentioned that the GSDs were taking over class. I bit my tongue as I almost spouted out, "Yeah- the real dogs are taking over!"


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

yeah, I would be embarrased to show up to any class even basic obedience with my dog if they would not mind.


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## JakodaCD OA

glad things are better and your instructor is taking your comments seriously..


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## GermanShepherd<3

Personally if this was me in your shoes, I would find a different instructor. This is such a waste of time on your behalf and that is unfair. I mean, agility classes add up, and you deserve the best of the best. This is crucial time and if you and your dog are actually practicing and advancing, it's no fun to try and catch someone else's dog, let alone watch people using dominant roles. I would try to go somewhere that is strictly positive reinforcement training. This is very important for agility, and it's the reason why those dogs behave that way. It will do you good as well as your dog, in my opinion, to find a different class/instructor asap. Good luck. Agility is a lot of fun.


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## Lin

GermanShepherd<3 said:


> I would try to go somewhere that is strictly positive reinforcement training. This is very important for agility, and it's the reason why those dogs behave that way. It will do you good as well as your dog, in my opinion, to find a different class/instructor asap. Good luck. Agility is a lot of fun.


I believe this place IS strictly positive? Or at least thats what they used to advertise... I'm not trying to speak for wildo here, but we're in the same city and I think the problem is lack of good facilities to train at. The place he's at is really supposed to be the best as far as I know. Their focus is ON agility and they don't do much else.


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## wildo

Lin said:


> I believe this place IS strictly positive? Or at least thats what they used to advertise... I'm not trying to speak for wildo here, but we're in the same city and I think the problem is lack of good facilities to train at. The place he's at is really supposed to be the best as far as I know. Their focus is ON agility and they don't do much else.


You're exactly right Lin, and GermanShepherd<3 -please do read my last update. I brought my concerns to my instructor. She listened to what I had to say and is already working hard on implementing changes. That's more than can be said about many places- regardless of if it has to do with dogs or not. I'm quite happy *most of the time* at this facility. Lin's correct- they focus only on agility here (though there is a singular class for competitive obedience, I've never seen the class nor have I seen anyone practicing such things). I think it is true for pretty much _any_ facility that you will get out as much as you put in. So far I've learned a lot, and what I am able to practice at home outside of class is clearly paying off inside class.

People are going to do what they want, and be how they want to be. My instructor is clearly non-confrontational and there isn't really anything wrong with that. She is able to make her points, and also express concern and awareness when needed. She is able to get everyone's attention and instruct them or reprimand them when need be. (Example to clarify: practicing the teeter, some unruly dogs were running close to the handler team on the teeter. She stopped everyone immediately and pointed out how easy it is for the dog on the teeter to get freaked by the dog off the teeter, seriously setting back the teeter training for the handler team. It is of utmost importance to be aware, responsible, and courteous to the other people on the contact equipment.) 

Anyway- the person doing the alpha-rolling clearly doesn't see it as a dominating thing. She thinks her dog "just loves the belly scratching." It certainly isn't my right, role, or responsibility to sway her opinion or to "train" her. And unless it is actually interfering with agility (which is obviously debatable- in some cases it certainly IS), it's probably not the agility instructor's job to teach her about this. We're there to learn agility. I'm not there to learn about positive/negative reinforces.

There's obviously a balance to be had. Breaking the class up into more focused and less focused dogs is going to be a huge step. I'm satisfied with this solution.


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## GermanShepherd<3

Ya but like MaggieRoseLee said, this wouldn't be happening in her agility classes and i believe her. watch her videos and the atmosphere, everyone's happy, and if they mess up it's okay. No one is rolled on their back for it. If that behavior is allowed in class it is not positive reinforcement but rather force. Huge difference...agility=fun ALWAYS! and this class doesn't seem like it's fun for the dogs but with chaos and stress. 
And it could be advertisement..trust me. I know many BEST OF THE BEST breeders with ELITE AND SUPREME prices, and you talk to them, and they act like they are so professional on their website and you speak to them and its all crap. 
You don't seem happy with your class, and you may feel bad to leave their classes, but it's okay to move onto something else. In the long run it's all about you and your dog. Foundation and bond building in the early stages is what determines how well your dog does in actual trials. Your instructor or other classmates won't be there but you and your dog and it will show what you and the dog have learned. No one will matter at that point, so wouldn't it be worth it to change classes and have a great day who LOVES agility and gives it is all?
Just look at dogs trained with force, or pushed into agility, and one that is trained with strictly positive reinforcement where even if they make a mistake its all play and not the end of the world that it needs to be rolled on its back-- that's old school. Attitude and performance will be different. I really hope you do the best for your dog though. 
-Nicole


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## GermanShepherd<3

UPDATE: if you talked to the instructor and you feel everything will be better, than by all means you know the dog and instructor better as you see them everyday.  Good luck to you, and remember if things just don't add up, it's better to be safe than sorry and move to classes that will strengthen the foundation work.
Good luck to you! Post us videos when you do eventually compete!


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## Lin

GermanShepherd<3 said:


> but it's okay to move onto something else


But where do you go when there is nowhere else? That was essentially my point. 

I train where wildo used to train. And I am happy there, but I by no means agree with the trainer 100%. I also have a background in horses, and have never worked under a trainer I agreed with on 100% of things. Thats the nature of it, theres an old saying that the only thing 2 out of 3 trainers will agree on is the 3rd is doing it wrong. 

I agree with wildo's comment that you get out of it what you put in. I have a different goal than most in the classes I'm currently training in so I take whats taught and adapt it to work for us. I've spoken to the trainer about it, and asked him if he thinks the things I'm doing are ok or if he would recommend doing them differently. From all the trainers I've worked with in this area, he's the best so far and I'm very happy there for now. But if I wasn't, I'm not sure where I would go! Sometimes there just isn't a step up, so you have to take what you've got and make the best of it. From wildo's posts, it sounds like for the majority he is happy its just some specific frustrations but he's luckily being able to work those out with the trainer.


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## wildo

+1 to Lin. Not everyone lives in a place where there is an abundance of training facilities. And definitely not everyone can afford the *time* or money to be driving 1+ hours each way to training.


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## TaraM1285

wildo said:


> +1 to Lin. Not everyone lives in a place where there is an abundance of training facilities. And definitely not everyone can afford the *time* or money to be driving 1+ hours each way to training.


And even if you do live in an area where there is an abundance of training facilities, I seriously doubt you could find one that was 100% perfect to meet your needs 100% of the time.


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## Rerun

Exactly...a hr+ each way in gas would kill me in my SUV. And with a baby at home, I have a support system in place, but most classes are in the evenings and my SO works evenings, so I have to arrange childcare with family. Adding in a 2 hr commute onto a class time just isn't an option.

Wildo, I'll definitely follow your posts on PP because it really does look like the only decent place to train agility at around here.


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## wildo

Rerun said:


> Wildo, I'll definitely follow your posts on PP because it really does look like the only decent place to train agility at around here.


I know you do. (Probably Lin as well.) So it's only fair that I update you on this. Today I finally got a response on my initial inquiry about why we weren't moved to Beginner II. 

Firstly, like many people, she had a valid excuse for her latency in reply- I can accept that. 

Secondly, she did fill me in on how things work at PP stating that there are really only 4 levels that most will ever participate in: Pre-agility, Beginner I, Beginner II, and Novice/Open. They also offer an Excellent class, but it is not common to have a lot of people signed up for this. As such, it is totally commonplace for people to repeat levels and the jump from one level to the next is quite high.

The class "for more focused dogs" which would be like a Beginner 1.5 fell through. There isn't enough time for the trainers, nor will there be enough participants able to move to that level. That's too bad, but understandable.

I was told my training is going very well- but there are areas where I am cutting corners. We'll talk specifics more in person tonight in class. (Instructor is a better face-to-face communicator, and I am a better written communicator. Ha!)

I guess the take-home here is that with only four real levels- it isn't often at all that one would be ready to move up a level with only one 8 week session. Personally, I think this outlook overlooks the fact that people come in a different levels to begin with. On the other hand, it's not like we started out "better" than anyone else.

My biggest downfall is that I see progress and want to pursue/push it to the max. It's the same way I write code (perhaps a bad analogy for this forum). When I figure out a new pattern to accomplish a task- I have an internal need to push it to the max and see how far I can go with it. So when I see Pimg doing 7 jump sequences, running the a-frame fearlessly, loving the closed tunnel, rocking the teeter, and doing OK on the dogwalk- I think to myself- "well there you go. Progress. Now let's move on!"

I have to learn to calm down, slow down, and work on the nuances. I'm sure that's what agility is all about anyhow. Surely most dogs competing are all capable of handling the obstacles- it's almost certainly more about the nuances of how the handler/dog team go about them... I have a lot to learn. Looking forward to a chat before/after class tonight to be "schooled." :toasting:


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## TaraM1285

wildo said:


> My biggest downfall is that I see progress and want to pursue/push it to the max. It's the same way I write code (perhaps a bad analogy for this forum). When I figure out a new pattern to accomplish a task- I have an internal need to push it to the max and see how far I can go with it. So when I see Pimg doing 7 jump sequences, running the a-frame fearlessly, loving the closed tunnel, rocking the teeter, and doing OK on the dogwalk- I think to myself- "well there you go. Progress. Now let's move on!"


Coding is a perfect example. Let's say you just learned how to use recursive functions. "Wow! These are awesome!" So, before really understanding how to use them well and incorporate them into other bits of code, you start using them any time you have even the littlest need for something like that. What do you end up with? Inefficient code that makes no sense even though it might work most if the time. So you have to go back and rework all your code after learning the appropriate uses of recursion. 

PS Not saying you don't understand recursion or agility moves/obstacles. Just running with your analogy.


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## wildo

TaraM1285 said:


> Coding is a perfect example. Let's say you just learned how to use recursive functions. "Wow! These are awesome!" So, before really understanding how to use them well and incorporate them into other bits of code, you start using them any time you have even the littlest need for something like that. What do you end up with? Inefficient code that makes no sense even though it might work most if the time. So you have to go back and rework all your code after learning the appropriate uses of recursion.
> 
> PS Not saying you don't understand recursion or agility moves/obstacles. Just running with your analogy.


You just got *way* cooler in my book... :wild:


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> I have to learn to calm down, slow down, and work on the nuances. I'm sure that's what agility is all about anyhow. Surely most dogs competing are all capable of handling the obstacles- it's almost certainly more about the nuances of how the handler/dog team go about them...


 Absolutely! Teaching the obstacles is the easiest part of training a dog for agility


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## TaraM1285

wildo said:


> You just got *way* cooler in my book... :wild:


Haha! Thanks. :blush:


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## selzer

I think it is awesome that you are speaking up and asking. I think that too often people get frustrated, or angry, or feel defeated, and give up on training, when asking can help get them where they want to be.


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## wildo

Indeed! I am glad I spoke up. Class was good tonight- only one other guy showed up (a GSD at that) and then half way through a WGSD also showed up. So we had an all GSD class. Fun times!

I did have my talk with my instructor after class, and I was quick to admit that just today, quite literally, it dawned on me that there is a LOT more to agility than just being able to do the equipment. While she was appreciative of my honesty, she also understood that I wasn't trying to be rude or pushy. In her word- "how could you know unless you ask!?"

As it turns out though- kind of my lucky day. A bunch of new students signed up for Beginner I which allowed me to be bumped into Beginner II due to class sizes! Very excited for the new opportunities, even if I was told that I will be pretty far behind. I was told I will have to be very diligent to catch up, and it might be surprisingly frustrated. All I can say is bring it on! I'm up for the challenge and very excited!


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## selzer

Maybe getting a book will help you learn the reasons behind things, so you know what they are talking about on different moves and such, without ever having tried them. And you can practice some stuff at home with out equipment, like changing the side you are directing from -- cannot remember what that is called. 

Good luck.


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## TaraM1285

That's an exciting outcome! It's good that you have the list of requirements for Beginner I to work on between classes. Hopefully that will help you be less behind.


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## lylol

I highly recommend viewing some videos as well... you can rent them now on clean run or the smartflix site... I highly recommend susan garretts one jump video and since you like box work I would try all of Greg Derritts videos.


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## wildo

That is really great advice! I did recently notice that Clean Run had those video on demand options. I was looking at a couple but didn't really know which I should look into. As far as info outside of class, I did just today purchase Excelling at Dog Agility Books 1, 2, and 3 by Jane Simmons-Moake


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## wildo

Off topic (but hey, it's my thread)-

Beginner II class Monday night was, dare I say, AWESOME!!!! I felt Pimg fit right in and I didn't feel behind at all. In fact, in some ways she is still doing better than the majority of students in the class. We got to do some much longer bar jump sequencing (eight at the most) and Pimg really excelled here. We had been practicing jump sequences all week and I think you could see improvement in class. We also did some more teeter work and she continues to be very solid here. In fact, hate to say it, but I finally got to see what a GSD with poor nerves looks like. What a shame. When we went over the teeter and it banged, the other GSD in class took off scared and pulled its owner over hitting her (the owner's) head on the dogwalk they were standing by.  She was ok, fortunately, but she definitely heeded the instructor's warning a bit closer when it was said, "Now Pimg is going to run over this teeter and it will bang- watch your dogs!"

We also got to finally practice on a lowered dogwalk and I got to see some really great confidence there. It is 110% clear to me that ladder work and wobble board practice is paying off in rear foot awareness and balance, respectively. She is nearly sprinting across the lowered dogwalk and has yet to misplace a foot. Lastly we lowered the a-frame to a very fun, low 3.75' and I got to see a LOT more confidence come out, as well as hit contacts. We haven't started training our running contacts for A-Frame yet, but it is nice to see her doing it on her own for now.

At any rate- if there is anything "on topic" about this post, it would be this: I am very happy that I took the step to speak with my instructor about my concerns. It could have backfired (pfft... worst case I'd just have to work in my own backyard full of very nice agility equipment ) but it didn't. It paid off. If classes continue to be this focused, I can see some real benefit here!


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Off topic (but hey, it's my thread)-
> 
> At any rate- if there is anything "on topic" about this post, it would be this: I am very happy that I took the step to speak with my instructor about my concerns. It could have backfired (pfft... worst case I'd just have to work in my own backyard full of very nice agility equipment ) but it didn't. It paid off. If classes continue to be this focused, I can see some real benefit here!


Sounds like your agility training is just rolling along beautifully. Keep up the good work! :thumbup:


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## TaraM1285

That's fabulous that your class is going so well! Keep up the great work!


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