# Flyball Malinois- miniature?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

What's up with the Malinois that you see around flyball tournaments? Why are they so small? Are they miniature or something?

Here's an example: Drastic
Here's another: Rockit FMCh | Awesome Racing Flyball Fanatics

Anyone know?


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## Snikki (Feb 11, 2003)

I have seen Rockit and he is not miniature, he is perfectly normal looking.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

It was hard to tell from the pictures. Regardless- it seems most Mals in flyball are quite small- perhaps as short as 18-20" at the withers.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

He looks like a normal sized malinois to me. This is Loki, who is on our team: 










He doesn't look that different on the box than Rockit, but Loki is about halfway between Halo and Keefer in size. I'd guess him at at least 70 pounds, maybe even a little more.


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## Snikki (Feb 11, 2003)

18 to 20" would be normal size.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Uh oh, time to start researching bloodlines on an entirely different breed!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Snikki said:


> 18 to 20" would be normal size.


According to who? I've not see a reference yet that states that a Mal should only be 18-20" tall. I'm seeing 22-26" -similar to the GSD.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

This is what I'm talking about. Here's some footage I required at the 2011 NAFA Championships in Indy. That small Mal is no bigger than the whippet in front of it!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Willy, do you know if that's a purebred Mal? There are a lot of sport mixes in flyball.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

They all more or less look pretty normal to me too. Out of the 5 female mals I know only one is the same size as a female GSD, the rest are pretty small like 40ish pounds or so (one is only 35 pounds.) They are all from different lines too, some from IPO lines and some from ring sport lines. I have honestly never met a "showline" malinois, maybe they tend to be taller than the working lines?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Willy, do you know if that's a purebred Mal? There are a lot of sport mixes in flyball.


Nope. I have absolutely no idea. I was kinda hoping this thread may shed some light on that... One of you guys must know! :rofl:

Both in the 2011 and 2012 NAFA Championships- there were LOTS of these tiny Mals.

About all I know is that one of these tiny Mals would absolutely rock my agility world.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

BTW I am pretty sad I didn't get to see that little rocket run I bet she was FAST. 


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> They all more or less look pretty normal to me too. Out of the 5 female mals I know only one is the same size as a female GSD, the rest are pretty small like 40ish pounds or so (one is only 35 pounds.) They are all from different lines too, some from IPO lines and some from ring sport lines. I have honestly never met a "showline" malinois, maybe they tend to be taller than the working lines?


Hmmm... now there's a thought. Are Michael Ellis Loups du Soleil Mals show lines? I've seen one of them in person- a guy semi-local that does dock diving. I believe his name is Bob Warner and the dog's name is C'Biscuit du Loups du Soleil. That dog is most definitely NOT only 40 pounds- he seems as big as a normal GSD to me.
c'biscuit du loups du soleil | Loups du Soleil


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> BTW I am pretty sad I didn't get to see that little rocket run I bet she was FAST.


The one in my video? I'm not sure I have footage of it's actual run. I was enthralled with the "catch" as they come back. I can check to see though...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Here's C'Biscuit. This is the size I imagine when I think of a Mal: (And don't forget, Michael Ellis is like a giant! Ha!)


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## Snikki (Feb 11, 2003)

wildo said:


> According to who? I've not see a reference yet that states that a Mal should only be 18-20" tall. I'm seeing 22-26" -similar to the GSD.


According to what is out there. I don't need someone to tell me what is obvious from the hundreds of Malinois I have seen. I am only familiar with working lines and have no interest in show lines. There is a vast range of sizes in working lines. If my male Malinois wasn't sleeping right now, I'd measure him and I'm sure he would be what you consider miniature and yet he was able to come in third in Ring ll at the NARA National Championships this year. He is about medium size when compared to the other Malinois I have seen and he weighs 60 pounds. If you look at a dog like Rodin who was what you would call miniature, he has many, many offspring working in all types of things and I have seen those dogs ranging from tiny to large. Rodin du Calvaire aux Acacias, Belgian Malinois Stud Dog, Belgian Malinois Puppies I am wondering why size is so important to you anyway, if the dog can do the work, that's what most people care about.

Oh, wait, I see now. If you are looking at Loups du Soleil dogs yeah, they can be way oversize, the one I know was called the pony at training. It's not something I admire.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> Hmmm... now there's a thought. Are Michael Ellis Loups du Soleil Mals show lines? I've seen one of them in person- a guy semi-local that does dock diving. I believe his name is Bob Warner and the dog's name is C'Biscuit du Loups du Soleil. That dog is most definitely NOT only 40 pounds- he seems as big as a normal GSD to me.
> c'biscuit du loups du soleil | Loups du Soleil


Haha the 35 pound mal I know is from LDS' H-litter (ring sport lines.) She is tiny! but very fast, nicely put together and would rip ya a new one if you looked at her wrong. Size obviously ranges quite a bit in the breed, in my own experience most o the females are pretty small, I do know one (she's Odin's biggest competitor in agility right now) who is almost the same size as Odin, probably 65-70 pounds. Her sire is quite big, but tiny dam. I guess she took after her daddy who is from Ivan balabanov's kennel. The other super tiny female I know is an import from holland (although I know she is IPO lines) the other ones I have no idea the lines, but they are not show and are quite small.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

LDS dogs are working line dogs.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I had enough video footage to see the logo on their shirt. That is Rocket Relay from Canada, and their website shows this dog as a Mal named Vivid:

Vivid
Malinois, Female
Born: November 2007
Owner: Brittany Chase
A typical crazy mal but what else would you expect. She ran on the Multi team for the 2010 racing year and helped them win the CanAm Multi Championship.









I think you can see Vivid in this video:


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Snikki said:


> According to what is out there. I don't need someone to tell me what is obvious from the hundreds of Malinois I have seen. I am only familiar with working lines and have no interest in show lines. There is a vast range of sizes in working lines. If my male Malinois wasn't sleeping right now, I'd measure him and I'm sure he would be what you consider miniature and yet he was able to come in third in Ring ll at the NARA National Championships this year. He is about medium size when compared to the other Malinois I have seen and he weighs 60 pounds. If you look at a dog like Rodin who was what you would call miniature, he has many, many offspring working in all types of things and I have seen those dogs ranging from tiny to large. Rodin du Calvaire aux Acacias, Belgian Malinois Stud Dog, Belgian Malinois Puppies I am wondering why size is so important to you anyway, if the dog can do the work, that's what most people care about.
> 
> Oh, wait, I see now. If you are looking at Loups du Soleil dogs yeah, they can be way oversize, the one I know was called the pony at training. It's not something I admire.


Personally the size and athleticism of mals is a HUGE draw for me! I always say if I could just have a GSD in a tiny malinois body! That woul be MY perfect dog


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Loup du Soleil mals are definitely not showlines! I've met Michael Ellis, and he's a fairly big guy, but not THAT tall, if I remember correctly - it was just once, about a year ago. We've trained with his business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel, Lisa Maze. In addition to breeding mals, she also breeds border terriers and sport mixes. This is her dog Scrabble:






Scrabble's mom is Gooey, who is a Border Collie/Border Terrier/Malinois mix, and his dad is Fusel, a Malinois who was used in the Military Working Dog Program at Lackland AFB. Fusel belongs to her boyfriend Andrew Ramsey, who was our nosework trainer, and he's also sired some LDS litters. 

Gooey: 




Scrabble's littermate Tonka does dock diving, and Jenga and Siri (formerly Ruxpin) are doing flyball.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Snikki said:


> If you look at a dog like Rodin who was what you would call miniature, he has many, many offspring working in all types of things and I have seen those dogs ranging from tiny to large.


From the pics in the link to Rodin you sent, it appears that Rodin's withers are higher than the helper's knees. So no, this is now what I would call miniature.



Snikki said:


> I am wondering why size is so important to you anyway, if the dog can do the work, that's what most people care about.


I care because MY sport of choice (which isn't French Ring) is not favorable to a 60+ pound dog flying around the course. I already have one of those. I'm looking for a much smaller, faster, more agile dog without getting into a Border Collie. These tiny Mals interest me a lot.

I mentioned the LDS dog (C'Biscuit) as a size comparison that is known to me. Not all of use have had the pleasure seeing hundreds of Mals...


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> I had enough video footage to see the logo on their shirt. That is Rocket Relay from Canada, and their website shows this dog as a Mal named Vivid:
> 
> Vivid
> Malinois, Female
> ...


Thanks! She is FAST. Sometimes I miss flybal, then I reminds myslef of being stuck in a building with hundreds of barking dogs for two days lol. And I remember why I love agility so much


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> if I could just have a GSD in a tiny malinois body! That woul be MY perfect dog


SOLD! :rofl:

Lisa Clark's Elena is about as close as I've seen.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow Debbie- Scrabble rocks! That's the size of Mal I think I'd like...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Scrabble is a VERY cool dog! He totally looks like a small Malinois. He's got the toy drive of a Mal, and the food drive of a Border Terrier. I was in love with his brother Ruxpin, and if I didn't already have 2 dogs I would have taken him in a heartbeat. I was so glad to see him go to a flyball home in Alaska. He's on Alaska Dogs Gone Wild, who were at CanAm, but I don't think he was racing yet.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

KristiM said:


> Personally the size and athleticism of mals is a HUGE draw for me! I always say if I could just have a GSD in a tiny malinois body! That woul be MY perfect dog


Well, there's always these guys 



> Chodský Pes
> "Chodský pes is a medium-sized breed. They are 19 to 22 inches in height and weigh about 35-55 lbs."
> "As the breed of Chodský pes is old, it is possibly also one of the predecessors to the German Shepherd."


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## Snikki (Feb 11, 2003)

wildo said:


> From the pics in the link to Rodin you sent, it appears that Rodin's withers are higher than the helper's knees. So no, this is now what I would call miniature.
> 
> As it says on the website, Rodin was 55 pounds. He was small.
> 
> ...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Malinois are not supposed to be titchy little dogs.


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## Kbuhasan (Jan 9, 2013)

Question


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

you can post this in the breeders section Kbuhasan.


To the original question, I've met several mals in agility and obedience trials (and a few at conformation). Only 1 of them was anywhere near the size of a GSD. The rest were TINY - the males would probably top out in the low to mid 50s.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

willy, my trainer Bonnie who captain of Ruff Enuff flyball team, that won in the 2012 that I believe you went to? 

She has two small mals, they are fast little demons She got them specifically for flyball, from a breeder in Canada I believe, who is breeding smaller mals .. Not sure of the kennel name I could always ask her.

Will be moving the thread above that needs it's own topic


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Aaron, Kelly Robbins and Brittany have been doing some breeding with the LDS dogs. Vixen is awesome and I have seen her quite a bit. Brittany and Rocket Relay are just over the border from us. Most of the LDS dogs have come into flyball because they have washed out from FR, IPO, etc. Thinking that there is going to be a litter on the ground soon.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Trish- do you know if these dogs are hard to live with? Do they have the capability to settle- or at the very least, can you train them to settle?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Uh, the Mals I compete against are HUGE!!! The Dutchies too. Well there's one lady that has a gorgeous young Mal that looks normal size and a guy that has a nice young Dutchie. There is a huge Mali that runs like 3.8-4.0, his stride is amazing.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Why hello there, see ya'll on the topic about Malinois 
Firstly Mali's ARE indeed smaller then your standard GSD, my female WGSD weighed in at 80-85lbs where as Zoey weighs in at 60lbs. They aren't a tiny breed by any means and no, there's not a miniature version of them. There are breeders out there that breed them smaller but it is still standard, a typical Malinois ranges between 45-75 lbs, of course females being on the lower end of the spectrum. I'll try to get some pictures of my neighbors PB Mali's but his older boy weighed in at 90 lbs!

Wildo, I see you your looking into one? What exactly do you want out of a malinois? Although they aren't the size of a gsd, they make up for it with there insane intensity. These dogs are meant to work, simple as that, and you need to be dedicated! 
Example, I jog Zoey every morning before work 1/2 hour and play so intense fetch with her 1/2 hour (10 tennis balls constantly going back and forth, you should see my yard, errrr dirt field now!) When I get home I bump everything up to an hour, now if its pouring out, I'm stuck with a dog with energy that you can't quite manage.
I love Zoey, she's an awesome dog and every Mali I know is the same, they just require more work and up until its time for them to cross the bridge, their brain wants them to go go go go go. 

What do you mean by settle?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Most of the Mals I have seen are smaller than GSD. Around 50ish pounds.

There are some people crossbreeding Malinois with Border Terriers for the "ultimate flyball" dog,  so perhaps some of the really small Mals are actually crosses.

Warning: rant ahead.




I know some folks will disagree, but I think it's insanely unethical to crossbreed dogs for the purpose of Flyball. Like there aren't enough driven, energetic, athletic mixed breeds in shelters that wouldn't excel at it? Isn't that pretty much what Flyball was created FOR? So many pet owners give up their dogs *because* they can't handle that crazy drive... at least in my local shelter, I could walk up and down and point out half a dozen dogs that would LOVE to be adopted to a Flyball enthusiast.

But human beings are vain, and some want to WIN above all else, to the point that they totally lose perspective. It happens in every sport, but for things like Agility and Flyball that were created just so that mixed-breed, shelter dogs had a sport to participate in... IMO it's incredibly short-sighted and selfish to bring new mutt litters into the world when there are already too many mutt litters. 

/rant


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Freestep said:


> but for things like Agility and Flyball that were created just so that mixed-breed, shelter dogs had a sport to participate in...


I think I would tend to agree with your rant more than not (even though I'm now considering a mixed breed that you're ranting about) I just wanted to say that your history of agility is a bit off. It most certainly was not created as a sport for mixed breeds. In fact, most agree that agility was first debuted at Crufts. I don't know the history of flyball.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Nickyb said:


> Wildo, I see you your looking into one? What exactly do you want out of a malinois? Although they aren't the size of a gsd, they make up for it with there insane intensity. These dogs are meant to work, simple as that, and you need to be dedicated!
> Example, I jog Zoey every morning before work 1/2 hour and play so intense fetch with her 1/2 hour (10 tennis balls constantly going back and forth, you should see my yard, errrr dirt field now!) When I get home I bump everything up to an hour, now if its pouring out, I'm stuck with a dog with energy that you can't quite manage.
> I love Zoey, she's an awesome dog and every Mali I know is the same, they just require more work and up until its time for them to cross the bridge, their brain wants them to go go go go go.
> 
> What do you mean by settle?


This description is interesting to me, kinda makes me chuckle a bit even (in spite of my ignorance on the breed) because this description could easily have been given (and certainly HAS been given in the past!) by other forum members to describe their working line GSD. And then you have others come in and say things like- "wow, must suck to have a GSD like _that_. My working line GSD does _not_ need that amount of stimulation in order to be livable." 

I mean really- "stuck with a dog with energy that you can't quite manage"? Is it really _that_ bad?? That definitely doesn't sound so fun, and I think you have answered your question of what do I mean by 'settle' in that description alone. If the dog goes freakin' crazy because it didn't get an hour of fetch one day, then that's probably not the dog for me. I don't think I'm too much of a slackass when it comes to training or stimulation, but I also expect my dog to deal with it if they don't get it one night...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Uh, the Mals I compete against are HUGE!!! The Dutchies too.


Yeah, that's why I started the thread. Most of the mals I've seen (and I haven't seen a TON) have definitely been large. 60+ pounds for sure. It's only in flyball settings that I've seen these tiny mals. I know you meant flyball as well... Just saying, the mals I've seen locally have all been the size of GSDs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Warning: rant ahead.
> 
> I know some folks will disagree, but I think it's insanely unethical to crossbreed dogs for the purpose of Flyball. Like there aren't enough driven, energetic, athletic mixed breeds in shelters that wouldn't excel at it? Isn't that pretty much what Flyball was created FOR? So many pet owners give up their dogs *because* they can't handle that crazy drive... at least in my local shelter, I could walk up and down and point out half a dozen dogs that would LOVE to be adopted to a Flyball enthusiast.
> 
> ...


But you can say this about ANY sport or hobby or line of work. The exact same could be said about show line GSDs or working line GSDs.

I used to think it was crazy but now having actually *done* flyball alongside many of these dogs and their breeders, I'll probably get one. Not just for flyball (and believe me, my dog and my team are not winners!) but because I like their size, coat, overall temperament, smaller dog with a more robust temperament, very social and good with other dogs, excellent with kids. I see Border Staffy breeders that put a LOT more into their breeding programs than most GSD breeders. They know as many generations of pedigree and have already thought through the breedings for generations to come. There are usually long waiting lists for good breeders. I see a lot of uniformity in the litters (great sport dogs and great temperaments) and most of them go to people that are really active with their dogs. Not everyone that does flyball is obsessed with winning, but when you are doing a *sport* it's important to have a dog that can do it *safely* and these dogs have the right conformation. Just like how we criticize people for intentionally breeding 100+lb GSD and advertizing that they are great for SchH or police work. Using your logic all breeding of dogs for any athletic activity is selfish and short-sighted. Maybe the concept of domestic dogs is selfish and short-sighted...

Also I think it's horribly unfair to start blaming Border Staffy breeders for shelter dogs. Really? So GSD breeders are exempt? Only breeds that we don't like or understand we blame for shelter dogs? I can't stand the attitude that any time I buy a purposely bred dog I'm killing shelter dogs or somehow putting more dogs in a shelter. I do rescue and my last foster is....you guessed it...doing flyball! When I am looking for a new dog I have very specific criteria and I don't need to be guilted into going to a shelter. Why is it that good breeders always get blamed and no one ever calls out the OWNERS of those dogs who failed them and landed them in the shelter?


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

My experience with mals (my club was about 75% mals) is that they do tend to be smaller than GSDs. There were a few exceptions but even the ones as tall as GSDs are built smaller, less body, more leg and generally just more agile. I have seen a few with horrendous fronts though! Most people who had them, they did not live loose in the house because they didn't settle, seems to me that they never really tried to teach them to settle but who knows. Most of them lived in kennels/pens and were brought out to work and exercise then back to the kennel. I do know one person who has 4! Mals and he says most of the time they are all loose in the house (supervised) and he also has 4 kids, so I think it can be done. 

Maybe to OT but I am super curious about these sport mixes. Anyone know what they are like? Obviously good at sports, but nerves, general attitude etc anyone have a good read on them?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on what mix you mean. I know there are Mals x terrier but I don't know any of those. Around me it is Border Staffies and a few Border Whippets, though the temperament of the Whippet makes them harder to train. I REALLY like Border Staffies though I'm not really enamored with either breed on it's own. The ones that we have on our team and race against I really like. I would like one some day but right now am more committed to GSDs and don't want more than 3 dogs.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Standard Mals don't get above 80lbs, the average for female is 60 where as male is 75. It's not that Zoey needs the fetch, she needs her energy drained just like any other dog, expect Mali's just have more energy. If you have a working GSD, Mali's require a bit more but I think you would be fine with one. It's really hard to judge since I know of you through a forum, but there's a reason to the mal's rarity among other breeds.

A puppy Mali is a nightmare.... watch this video.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm pretty sure I have footage of an all border staffie flyball team at home. I'll try to post it later... They also look VERY cool!

[EDIT]- Nickyb- I hate that video more than perhaps any other video on youtube. In my opinion, the only thing that video shows is a crazy dog- nothing more. The breed is irrelevant.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

wildo said:


> I'm pretty sure I have footage of an all border staffie flyball team at home. I'll try to post it later... They also look VERY cool!
> 
> [EDIT]- Nickyb- I hate that video more than perhaps any other video on youtube. In my opinion, the only thing that video shows is a crazy dog- nothing more. The breed is irrelevant.


I could show you 100 more mali puppy videos. 99 of them have the same energy levels, the one I posted just has more views.

Again what info are you looking for exactly? The more I look at your thread, the more I don't know what you want lol

Your original question.
No they range from 45-75lbs and are typically smaller than GSD's.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Haha if you would have stuck my younger GSD in an x pen with A BOX! He would have looked just as stupid at that age lol. At 18 months he settles very nicely in te house (sometimes he's naughty but mostly cause I think it's funny and he knows it.) I think you have to TEACH any high drive dog how you expect them to act in the house. 

I'm more interested in the border collie/mal/border terrier mixes. They look cool, nice size, I like the build coat etc. I'm just curious about what their "personality" is like. Does the lisa maze have a website? Gooey and scrabble are stinkin cute!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Like most threads, the discussion morphs into different areas. What I was initially asking was about the very tiny mals I see doing flyball. If there is a breed standard for the Malinois, nobody has linked to it yet. Plenty of people are saying that such a small mal is actually "normal" but in the same breath state, like you, that the mals are 45-75 pounds. Those little tiny mals I'm seeing doing flyball are smaller than 45 pounds (probably). The questions were loosely developed against this subset of the malinois population. Where do they come from? Are the still mals? Why are they so small? Are they indeed smaller than "normal?" Etc... I do think those questions have all been answered.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nadeen on here has a dog from her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> Like most threads, the discussion morphs into different areas. What I was initially asking was about the very tiny mals I see doing flyball. If there is a breed standard for the Malinois, nobody has linked to it yet. Plenty of people are saying that such a small mal is actually "normal" but in the same breath state, like you, that the mals are 45-75 pounds. Those little tiny mals I'm seeing doing flyball are smaller than 45 pounds (probably). The questions were loosely developed against this subset of the malinois population. Where do they come from? Are the still mals? Why are they so small? Are they indeed smaller than "normal?" Etc... I do think those questions have all been answered.


I'm guessing there's just a range. Just like people think Nikon is small at 70-75lbs and I find him normal (as does his conformation judges and breed survey). Someone earlier mentioned an 80-85lb GSD bitch, to me that is huge but to many that is a normal GSD. I would personally expect a sporty Mal to be 45-65lbs but the ones I see competing in flyball in my area are actually bigger than my GSDs.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> Haha if you would have stuck my younger GSD in an x pen with A BOX! He would have looked just as stupid lol. At 18 months he settles very nicely in te house (sometimes he's naughty but mostly cause I think it's funny and he knows it.) I think you have to TEACH any high drive dog how you expect them to act in the house.


I agree! Just showing a video of a young puppy destroying a box or two doesn't really say much at all about drive. It does say that they have a lot of energy though, and it certainly implies that one will need to channel that energy!



KristiM said:


> I'm more interested in the border collie/mal/border terrier mixes. They look cool, nice size, I like the build coat etc. I'm just curious about what their "personality" is like. Does the lisa maze have a website? Gooey and scrabble are stinkin cute!


I'm also curious about these crosses. I love the GSD! And I love agility. I'm trying to find some common ground, but this thread may also be me just poking the bubble a little to see what else is out there that is _definitely_ more suited to the sport I'm into... That Scrabble dog looks amazing!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

A lot of the Border Staffy people also do agility, free style, and disc. One of our team's Border Staffies was at flyball last night doing agility between turns, she was rocking!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

The border staffies actually do sound interesting, how big are they? Hard to tell from pics. Do they keep the really short coat of the staffie or is it like a short coated breed (gsd/labish) BTW you mean border collie not border terrier right?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

My agility trainer's training partner has two mals, one is out of Broadcreek, and she is very small. She competed in 22" in USDAA, so must be under 21 1/2 inches. She just retired at 11 years old, with a MACH 2. Her other mal is a male, but is still a few inches shorter than Mikko, who is 26". The ones I see in agility range in size, with only one being Mikko's height.

I've seen a few border staffies in agility down here and also a border jack. My trainer has a PB staffy and they are becoming more and more popular in agility-little crazy balls of muscle and energy that love everything. Have you considered a staffy?

(On a side note, I commented on an old agility thread about USDAA allowing any level dog to compete in that masters challenge class, not sure if you saw it)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> The border staffies actually do sound interesting, how big are they? Hard to tell from pics. Do they keep the really short coat of the staffie or is it like a short coated breed (gsd/labish) BTW you mean border collie not border terrier right?


Yes, Border Collie x Staffy, not Border Terrier.

They come in a range of size. One of my favorites is Hazzard and he's on the bigger size but still can do disc and jump into his owner's arms, tricks like that. My other favorite is Sober and he's on the small end. Here is Pan racing Sober so you can compare size (Pan 70lbs)





All the ones I've seen have short, tight coats like the Staffy. They are usually black and white but range from being mostly white with black patches to all black with a white stripe. Some also have brown or brindle. Most of the ones I see and train with look more like a Staffy and some I would have thought were straight Staffy (though these could be Staffy x Border Staffy so 3/4 Staffy).

Here is one from our team (hopefully it shows up). The handler is young and small.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/558598_377925075591500_455841617_n.jpg


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> But you can say this about ANY sport or hobby or line of work. The exact same could be said about show line GSDs or working line GSDs.


You are correct. I'm not a big fan of breeding just to *win*. Especially if the dog ends up suffering. For example: extreme angulation in ASLs, what is that for? It's certainly not helping the dog, but if it helps the owner to win conformation shows, people will keep breeding for it. Anything extreme for the purpose of winning can run counter to the dog's best interests. Look at English Bulldogs and other breeds that are horribly disfigured, for no other reason than to win dogshows. Granted, a Mal/Border Terrier cross should not have specific health problems, but why cross them? purebred Malinois and Border Terriers aren't good enough on their own? It's the attitude that bothers me.



> I used to think it was crazy but now having actually *done* flyball alongside many of these dogs and their breeders, I'll probably get one. Not just for flyball (and believe me, my dog and my team are not winners!) but because I like their size, coat, overall temperament, smaller dog with a more robust temperament, very social and good with other dogs, excellent with kids.


And Border Terriers don't fill that bill already?



> Not everyone that does flyball is obsessed with winning, but when you are doing a *sport* it's important to have a dog that can do it *safely* and these dogs have the right conformation.


There aren't purebreds, or even mixed breeds at the shelter, that already have the right conformation?



> Also I think it's horribly unfair to start blaming Border Staffy breeders for shelter dogs. Really? So GSD breeders are exempt? Only breeds that we don't like or understand we blame for shelter dogs? I can't stand the attitude that any time I buy a purposely bred dog I'm killing shelter dogs or somehow putting more dogs in a shelter.


Don't take it personally. I'm not blaming you or any "Border Staffy" or Labradoodle or Shih-chon or any other "designer dog" breeder for the homeless dog situation. What I'm saying is, creating new designer breeds for Flyball is unncessary and doesn't contribute to the solution. But it seems these people don't care about that. The breeders may be doing everything right by the book, health testing and everything they are supposed to, but why? The only answer I can come up with is that people want to WIN by whatever means they can; if they perceive something will give them a competitive edge, they want it.

I just don't see why a whole 'nuther breed needs to be created for Flyball, when there are many pure breeds and shelter mixes that already excel at it.

I'm not against breeding. I'm not even against crossbreeding, necessarily. But there is a dog overpopulation problem, so if you're going to breed a litter, you'd better have a dang good reason, IMO. In Europe they mix GSDs and Mals for police work, people crossbreed livestock guardian breeds to guard sheep, guide dog organizations cross Labs and Goldens in their program. This is important work that serves humanity and the breeding programs are done carefully and with intent. So are these designer flyball dog breeders, I am sure, but their purpose is basically to create a dog that can run fast and catch a ball. Whoopie.

I don't mean to belittle your sport, nor you or your dogs. Flyball is a fun sport. I'm sure the Mal/Border Terrier is a fantastic sport dog and a fun pet, not to mention cute as the dickens. Flyball is a great thing for people and dogs. I'm just saying that there are umpteen billion dogs in shelters that could do a fantastic job--why do we need to create more of them?

Like I said, there are going to be people who disagree with me, and we can agree to disagree; I'm not going to go out and campaign against designer dog breeders, but I'm not going to support them, either.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We have two smaller female Mals in our club. No idea their weight, but they are not big girls. Cute, quick and athletic. Then we have a HUGE male Mali that is also very quick and athletic (and very ugly) that I probably would not want to use in agility. 

Elena has a 1/2 sister (Vala daughter too) that when in shape was 48# and MAYBE 55 cm (actually I think she is probably not even to standard). We call her the pocket rocket. Very fast, very athletic and despite her small size could clear the 1 meter jump easily. When I still had her and was doing a puppy agility class I had agility people eying her. Elena is taller with more leg, but is 51.6#. It is possible to find smaller GSD, but it isn't just small size. They have to have the right structure, tighter ligaments, less angulation, probably more the structure of a sprinter Vs that of a dog built for endurance and distance (compare the quarter horse to the thoroughbred). 

It it is getting harder to find GSD on the smaller end of the standard. People want HUGE, massive, big bones, big heads, big......... If you want a GSD you will have to be willing to wait until the right little girl comes along. Finding a male that small will be very very difficult although a few do exist.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

KristiM said:


> I'm more interested in the border collie/mal/border terrier mixes. They look cool, nice size, I like the build coat etc. I'm just curious about what their "personality" is like. Does the lisa maze have a website? Gooey and scrabble are stinkin cute!


 
Yes, she does.  Home

There are actually a LOT of shelter dogs in flyball. Our club practices at the Marin Humane Society, one of our members is currently the director of Behavior and Training there, and two other members work there as well. Several of our members have rescue dogs, and one of them has ONLY rescues. 

Willy, if you like Mals and want a smaller size, have you considered a Terv? We have a Terv in our club from Denise Fenzi that's quite small. Her owner says she's 35-40 pounds, but that might be an estimate. I'd have guessed her at closer to 40-45 pounds - she's smaller than Halo, who is 60 pounds. Jiva is a drivey BEAST! 

There's also smaller working line GSDs like my girl. :wub: Halo would probably do very well in agility, she's very athletic and agile, extremely confident, and totally fearless. Even better, she has a terrific off switch and has no trouble settling around the house.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> I just don't see why a whole 'nuther breed needs to be created for Flyball, when there are many pure breeds and shelter mixes that already excel at it.


These are sport mixes they aren't "for flyball". Most of them do a variety of other sports as well. They are meant to be a robust dog with good size and musculature for a variety of events and also have a good temperament (not too nervy or skittish which you see a lot with BCs in chaotic environments like tournaments and trials). I am interested in them as a family dog, for when I have kids. I want something smaller than a GSD (and that has nothing to do with "winning" anything), with less shedding and a robust body and temperament suited to a young family. I prefer the temperament of the Staffy over the BC but to be honest I have way more experience with good Border Staffy breeders than pure Staffy breeders. I know exactly who to talk to about getting a dog that would fit my lifestyle and know the person is ethical and knowledgeable but have no such connections with Staffy people other than conformation dogs which is not what I want. At every tournament I've been to I have seen children handling Border Staffies. I'm not looking at their split times, I'm looking at their temperament, how they handle the environment, how are they walking around (are the scared, acting reactive towards other dogs, etc), how are they with children.



> Granted, a Mal/Border Terrier cross should not have specific health problems, but why cross them? purebred Malinois and Border Terriers aren't good enough on their own?


I have never met a Mal/Border Terrier or pure Border Terrier so I can't speak to that mix.



> There aren't purebreds, or even mixed breeds at the shelter, that already have the right conformation?


A loaded question and you know it. Why didn't you get your dogs from the shelter? Why didn't I get my dogs from the shelter?

Actually now that I think of it, most of the shelter dogs in my area are pit bulls, large dogs (mixes or pure), or very small dogs (mixes or pure, like teacup Yorkies, "daisy dogs"). When I was interested in a Border Staffy I scanned CL and PetFinder regularly (daily). I found two dogs that fit my bill. One ended up not being the right temperament (no toy drive, very skittish) and the other no one ever responded to the inquiry.

This shelter argument is no different than asking any person on this forum why they didn't get a shelter dog and you know that's unfair and there are hundreds of good reasons why not.



Freestep said:


> Don't take it personally. I'm not blaming you or any "Border Staffy" or Labradoodle or Shih-chon or any other "designer dog" breeder for the homeless dog situation.


Well I do take it personally. Then you are you talking about?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Belgian Malinois FCI Standard
*SIZE*

The desirable size for males is 23″ – 26½”.
The desirable size for females is 21″ – 24½”.


For all breeds of Belgian Shepherds. Or types. Or whatever they are called.  

I am wondering if you aren't seeing mixes. The people who adopted my foster also have a Malinois/JRT/Frenchie mix (purposefully bred). But, the Malinois mom is from Canada and is supposed to be a smaller female. I can't remember if I've seen her (Trish might know!). 

I do appreciate that this family not only purchased that little creature (he looks like a Gremlin and is about the cutest thing ever) but also adopted a higher drive, sport dog not suitable for a pet home, who was already showing the ability to participate in the sport (and agility probably someday as well). That's the thing with the shelter dogs that Freestep mentioned - they are ready to go!

ETA: I also think you can get a GSD to do whatever it is you want - I love watching Errow and Fyurie run, and I think the GSD for you is out there. Again, broken record, sometimes in rescue - these dogs are hard to adopt out to pet homes!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for chiming in Lisa! Really like to hear your opinion on this! Yes, I most definitely will have to wait for the right GSD to come along if that's the route I take. Happen to have any pics/video of Elena's half sister? She sounds amazing! Sounds exactly what I'd be looking for! Awesome!! 

And for the record, I definitely want a female. Smaller size. And I just like female dogs. But if I were to get a second dog, I'd have to be VERY careful to study up on potential same-sex aggression in the lines, because I'd probably have some border line tendencies in Pimg. And to be clear- she works next to female dogs all the time without issue. I'm talking specifically about LIVING with another female.

It's funny though because after all that's been said in this thread, I'd still take Pan in a heartbeat. Geez I love that dog! Beautiful and FAST! But so big... He's a pretty amazing dog. Thanks Lies... :hammer:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just checked PetFinder and the only dog within an hour of me that meets my criteria is one I already inquired about.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Liesje - go visit the shelters, go with people in the rescue who have shelter relationships and can ask to see the dogs that might be rescue only. My foster was going to be PTS/not allowed on the adoption floor. Yes you will see a ton of pits, they are unavoidable, you can't move your arm without pointing at one here, too, but the dogs you are looking for may not be listed on Petfinder/available for a typical adopter. They are intense, bothersome dogs to most people.  Even the little local shelters where I am have probably 1 sport dog prospect every couple of months. I just can't foster dogs that no one can handle/don't want to adopt now.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But Jean I'm not looking for that kind of dog. If the dog is not suitable to be listed for adoption then changes are, it's not going to work for me. I'm not looking for over the top intensity, drive, or energy. I'm looking for a well adjusted family dog not a top sport prospect. Either way, I'm no longer actively looking since I am hopefully getting a puppy this summer and would like to save a spot in my house for fostering once my DH is done with his evening commitment. I like the mixes I like because of how they act OUTside of the sport ring. I mean, we could look at *any* breed of dog and ask for a high drive, high energy one and turn it into a great flyball dog, that is not really a problem, but 90% of the dog's life involves *not* working/training so that is where I place the most importance when picking a dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The line in a shelter on adoptability, depending on how many dogs are in intake, differs. So there are many nice dogs who are viewed as too much/too intense in their evals, who do make really nice dogs, but are just too difficult to place. The shelter can more easily place a waggy pitbull, or a sleepy hound, than a dog who, given some exercise is great, but is bounding up on their cage door when people look at them. If there is room, that dog might make it on the floor. If there is not, they don't. For my foster, at Christmastime, there was no room. So she was marked rescue only. 

I just want people reading to know that there are a ton of variables, and ways to get a great sport (and home) dog from shelter or rescue if you want to. If you don't, you don't have to at all - and I mean that, but it is possible!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yes, Border Collie x Staffy, not Border Terrier.
> 
> They come in a range of size. One of my favorites is Hazzard and he's on the bigger size but still can do disc and jump into his owner's arms, tricks like that. My other favorite is Sober and he's on the small end. Here is Pan racing Sober so you can compare size (Pan 70lbs)
> Pan RPM Singles Race1 - YouTube
> ...


Thanks! Man those two are fun to watch!!! How you describe the staffy/border is pretty much exactly what I want in my next dog. I LOVE my GSDs but the size is an issue (for all the mountain stuff I do and agility) plus the health issues gsds often have are pretty daunting. I have several years to research, I will definitely be looking into them


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Most of the small mali's in flyball all have pretty close pedigrees. It is easily found out by looking up the LDS dogs and the NAFTA data base. I think you have seen Vixen, Jean, she has been to Boomtowne both this and last year.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> Thanks! Man those two are fun to watch!!! How you describe the staffy/border is pretty much exactly what I want in my next dog. I LOVE my GSDs but the size is an issue (for all the mountain stuff I do and agility) plus the health issues gsds often have are pretty daunting. I have several years to research, I will definitely be looking into them


They are really neat dogs! I have them on the back burner, assuming one day my future child asks for a dog of their own and wants to be involved in dog sports. There is a young girl on our flyball team (I think she's about 14 now but has been on the team for years) and she is awesome with her Border Staffy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wildo said:


> I'm also curious about these crosses. I love the GSD! And I love agility. I'm trying to find some common ground, but this thread may also be me just poking the bubble a little to see what else is out there that is _definitely_ more suited to the sport I'm into... That Scrabble dog looks amazing!


Lisa came to flyball practice a couple of times and I got some good pics of Scrabble but I can't find them in my photobucket album, so I may just have put them on FB. I'll look for them later, when I'm at home. 

In the meantime, in this pic we have Andrew's Mal Fusel (on the ground, far left) - Scrabble's sire, Cuvee (on the ground, to the right of Halo) - Scrabble's littermate, and on the bench, right to left is Haiku, (a Denise Fenzi Terv), Scrabble, Gooey, and Gooey's sire Cosmo (Border Terrier). On the other side of Halo is Lisa's dog Feist, an LDS Mal.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- what a pic!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn't get to read through the whole thread (sorry about to go to work).

But I did want to add. We have a personal protection Mali at training that's only about 54lbs. She's matured at around 23"-24". She's Storm's size. She's from police and KNPV lines.

Awesome little thing! We call her the Pocket Rocket! lol


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Caja's Mom said:


> Most of the small mali's in flyball all have pretty close pedigrees. It is easily found out by looking up the LDS dogs and the NAFTA data base. I think you have seen Vixen, Jean, she has been to Boomtowne both this and last year.


Okay, then I have seen her. I have to confess to watching the Border Collies more closely than Malinois. I have a little ranking in my mind - your GSDs first, Tervs, BCs, dogs with neat stories or underdogs, and of course your team and Lily's team. After that - like if it's a sighthound dominated team or a team that acts like the kind of dog Liesje is describing (which I can't imagine wanting either - nor would I be able to foster one no matter where it was on the shelter list) where they are picked up out of their crates, carried to the line and run, get picked back up...I lose focus. :wild: 

Isn't there a Mal on the top team that was at Boomtowne? I know there was a team where I literally couldn't follow them with my eyes, I had to back up, pick a focus point and watch them cross that - it was a lot of fun to watch them.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

My Malinois is from some guy who wanted to breed working dogs. She's a huge girl at 26", yet weights a slight 53 pounds. (That's 2 inches over the female standard.) But she's very capable and can do anything. She really has that "I'm the best at everything!" attitude. LOL! I think it's cute. 

Dogs come in below and above standard all the time. Sometimes for no apparent reason. Looks like some people were lucky to find smaller dogs for flyball. 

ETA: If I need info fast, I go to wiki. There are always links to standards, if you don't believe what you read on the wiki page. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Malinois)


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

My malinois settles in the house just fine and he was never a crazy puppy. I really hate that video that goes around, the only people I ever see post it are people that really don't know the difference between high drive and high energy/bored puppy. A high drive dog is not necessarily one that doesn't settle in the house. A high drive malinois isn't necessarily one that is high energy, and vice versa. Honestly I just tend to avoid these threads sometimes on this forum because of the people who don't have actual mali experience who jump in and talk about how nuts malinois are. I try not to be like the pit bull people who are on edge about every possbily negative pit comment, but sometimes it gets old seeing your favorite breed talked so negatively about by inexperienced people. Most of the time malinois "mixes" that belong to people here are rescue dogs with no known history and people assume it's a mali mix, and reply to threads about malis, but really have no idea if their dog even has mal in it in the first place, you know?

Your orignial question - can they settle in the house - absolutely. They are no different than any other high drive dog. Some of them don't settle, some of them do. A lot of the badly bred ones are skittish and quirky, you've met my Dante enough to know you need to go to a good breeder (I have no doubt you would). All the drive in the world for sport work doesn't mean squat if they can only perform in the backyard or in certain envioronments that they get used to over time.

Settling in the house, he is fine. If I turn him loose in the backyard or even our large kennel (in the backyard) he can be nuts. He's going going going all the time looking for things to bark at, squirrels to chase, things to destroy. If he gets bored, he's a PITA. If he's in the house and has a dog bed and nylabone to chew on, he's pretty happy.

You would do fine with a mali. If you had a well bred one, I think you would be very happy with one. I have always wondered why you haven't gone that route honestly. They would be a perfect fit for the sports you are interested in - good nerves provided. 

I would personally be very wary of getting a female with pimg. the videos you've shown of her with others would make me wary depending on how the mali grows up. Female female combos make me very edgy because I've had regular issues with females together (GSD's) and never an issue with any of my males or male fosters.

Malinois are not supposed to be a huge breed, but they aren't supposed to be midgets either. Dante is 57 lbs, sorry not sure on shoulder height, and my DH and I consider him "small" even though he's within standard. However, all we have to compare to are the malis on the dept which are pretty big males. In general, this dept seems to prefer big dogs period - even the GSD's. I have no idea why Dante turned out so small - neither of his parents were small.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for your opinion, Rerun- I appreciate it. Funny that you wonder why I haven't considered the mal route before because the reason is the constant remarks of nutso dogs! Ha! I really do think I'd be fine with a working line of any breed. I train near every day, and sometimes twice a day. It's what I like to do... But there are days where I will have to work late, or will want to lay on the couch and do nothing, or sleep in until 10, or whatever. This canNOT be that uncommon amongst WL dog owners, and I can't buy that people would find that a reason to not get a high drive (or high energy) dog. I mean seriously- what do you guys think your dog does when you go to work during the day?? Certainly they are not getting much stimulation for those 8 or 9 or 10 or 14 hours....

Regarding another female with Pimg- I agree. Especially a puppy. The "right" female could work out, but generally speaking, it's not a combo I think would go over well. But since we can't edit things on this board- I always like to state along with that that Pimg has NEVER ONCE bit another dog, even when I had another female living with me. She is very vocal/visual about the fact that she hates the nonstop puppy play/interaction, and she gets very jealous of me, not liking to share. She also gets toy possessive. But she is so FAR from some of the _actual_ same-sex aggression stories on this board. So while I don't think it's a great idea, I do want to be an advocate for my dog and be clear that it's far from unmanageable. But it's probably not something I'd want to tempt.

These small mals wouldn't matter though! The tiny males at only 21-23" high and only 45 pounds or so.... how cool!!

Rerun- have you ever seen Lisa train at Diehl's club? I will admit that her GSDs are pretty awesome!! She might sway my back to a nice small, athletic GSD! :thumbup:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I haven't. To be honest I haven't been out there in a couple of years. We just don't have the time with our 2 yr old son and another on the way and he's too high energy to take to the schH field for an afternoon of watching.

I do not for a second believe that everyone that has WL dogs is out all the time going going going. Dante is not from well bred lines, but is all mal (I met his parents) and sure, he'd go for a bike run 3 times a day if I took him. Does he need it or require it, no. I can lay around all day and he's fine if he's got something to chew on. None of the WL dogs I actually know and have handled on a regular basis get what most here would consider apprpriate training time and exercise. Many of them were titled early on and then used as breeding dogs, good bloodlines, and they are happy well adjusted pets that get a ball session in the yard once a week maybe if they are lucky.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

That is the dog and team you are thinking about Jean.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I had a roomate/friend who had a Mal. I lived with him for about 5 months until he was sold as a cadaver/explosives detection dog. He was working lines, his sire was a working Boston K9. He was a great house dog, very well behaved.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think the "breed test" for malinois should be ringsport or KNPV. I do not think breeders should breed malinois for flyball or agility only. If an owner feels like doing just flyball with their dog, fine. But that should not be the point of a breeding program- for malinois, anyway. 

That "you want a high drive puppy" video could be replaced by this: 



.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

No one liked my idea, I guess?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Chicago Canine- I actually did look up the breed you mentioned, but it pretty much just looked like a GSD to me. :shrug:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> I think the "breed test" for malinois should be ringsport or KNPV. I do not think breeders should breed malinois for flyball or agility only. If an owner feels like doing just flyball with their dog, fine. But that should not be the point of a breeding program- for malinois, anyway.
> 
> That "you want a high drive puppy" video could be replaced by this: Abby fetch 11 weeks - YouTube.


Just wanted to say I LOVE your Abby - what a great little girl!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here are the pics I took of Scrabble at flyball, we were just doing passing recalls with him:





































He is FAST!!!! With his ears tucked back, his martingale collar almost slipped right off his head. :wild:


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I can say Im one of the lucky ones that has a GSD in a malinois body. My girl will be 2 in March and she's about 58lbs and pretty short; I actually started posting here concerned that I had an abnormally small dog LOL









Next to a Schraderhaus male her same age









Small enough to get on the counter and hang out comfortably.

Her brother is about 80lbs. Weird stuff, genetics. I've seen most mal's about her size (the 55-65lb mark). She's a high drive dog so I always joke that my breeder found a mal that threw bicolors and sent her to me instead of a normal GSD


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

wildo said:


> Chicago Canine- I actually did look up the breed you mentioned, but it pretty much just looked like a GSD to me. :shrug:


Well, people were saying they liked the GSD but wanted something smaller... The Chodsky pes are 35-55 lbs so I figured they would qualify.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

A small GSD with high drive is not a malinois or abnormal in any way. Well bred working GSD's have just as high drive as malinois, and 55 - 65 lbs is not out of standard for a female GSD.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wildo said:


> Nope. I have absolutely no idea. I was kinda hoping this thread may shed some light on that... One of you guys must know! :rofl:
> 
> Both in the 2011 and 2012 NAFA Championships- there were LOTS of these tiny Mals.
> 
> About all I know is that one of these tiny Mals would absolutely rock my agility world.



The dog in the video looks more like a mix to me. Something is off. Not sure if that has been lightened up, I didn't read any further before answering that post. 

That being said, MaDeuce is much smaller than my GSD females and also lighter. Nala is small, light and compact. Only has 68 pounds. MaDeuce is ten pounds lighter. Mals are not supposed to be as heavy, big boned and large as GSD's.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Also I am pretty sure the Chodsky Pes doesn't have the separation of working vs show lines to the extent that GSD has.
Here is some more info on the breed:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=677680-chodsky-pes-update
http://www.sarahsdogs.com/breeds/bohemian-shepherd/
https://sites.google.com/site/kalistadahlstedt/chodsky-pes-english


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Rerun said:


> A small GSD with high drive is not a malinois or abnormal in any way. Well bred working GSD's have just as high drive as malinois, and 55 - 65 lbs is not out of standard for a female GSD.


I was trying to make a light joke of the conversation, no need to pick it apart. I know it's not out of standard, but it is about the same size as a mal, and combined with the intense drive, we joke about it in training. :doggieplayball:


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

I think the Mals I have seen in flyball are about the same as I have seen at other times.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Late jumping in here but I thought I'd post a bit on the size thing with Mals and Belgians in general. All of the Belgian breeds (or varieties, depending on where you are) have the same ideal height: 22"-24" for the girls, 24"-26" for the boys. There is some leeway, sometimes quite a bit of leeway on that depending on the organization. Like any other breed, dogs who are above or below that height happen and exist in all lines. I took in an Oops litter of Groenendaels from a friend a few years ago and they are all small. The males who remained local to me are 20"-21" at the shoulder and right around 40lbs. Undersized no matter what standard you look at but definitely purebred Groenendaels from fairly common lines. Most of my Groenendaels have been at the smaller end of the standard my 24.5" male who's around 53lbs and a couple 22" bitches around 40-43lbs. They are just as correct per the standard as 26" males or 24" bitches though. They aren't selectively bred for smaller size or anything, it just happens to be the size they are. My Mal is from a combination of FCI and KNPV lines. The KNPV lines can be quite large but he's going to end up being on the smaller side I think. Probably mature to about 55lbs. 

I think there is a lot of misconception with Mals and the show vs. working line dogs. One is that show line Mals are all huge and hairy and that is the "type" that wins in the AKC ring. There is as much size and coat variation in show line Mals as there are in working or sport bred Mals but some working bred Mals are way bigger than any show bred Mal (mostly the Mals that aren't really purebred Mals). I think this misconception comes from people seeing most dogs from one show kennel that are heavily campaigned. In my area, you can finish a Mal as long as the dog is decently put together, has no disqualifying or serious faults and looks enough like a Mal. People finish working line dogs in AKC. Show line dogs can be competitive driven performance dogs and some people do bite sports with them as well. There is not same degree of differences in show vs. working with Mals as there is with working bred and AKC show GSDs. Maybe more like the difference between German working and German show lines, although show Mals have much more variance in type than German showlines. It's fairly common in the culture of the AKC Belgian crowd to promote the breed's versatility and for people involved to want to see CHs with other titles, not just entry level titles either. We have CH/MACHs, CH/OTCHs, dogs winning BOB the Nationals who are titled in advanced levels of performance or herding or obedience. A lot of people involved in breeding AKC Belgians of all varieties do stuff with their dogs beyond conformation. It is just a totally different scene from the AKC GSD scene. 

As for settling in the house, most Mals I know (working or show lines) are good house dogs. I think people often tend to exaggerate their difficulty when talking about them on the internet for whatever reason. They are high energy dogs and do thrive in homes that keep them mentally and physically engaged but they aren't really supposed to be hyper dogs either. Some Mals certainly can be difficult to live with for a wide range of reasons, like some GSDs can be. And I think to people who aren't suited for them, they will seem really difficult just like any breed with a mismatched owner. My PyrShep Savvy is almost 2 and Roust (Mal) is 10 months. Roust is already a far better house dog than Savvy LOL I will trust him loose in the house for shoter periods of time, he isn't destructive and he's overall a really good boy in the house. Savvy tries to be a good boy but it's just so hard to be still and not think about the gazillion other things you could be doing at any given moment. PyrSheps are hyper though, that's part of their charm 

I really like Ivan Balabanov's Malinois FAQ:

The Malinois FAQ Belgian Malinois Frequently Asked Questions

Oh and that Scrabble dog looks like he could be a relative of Roust! He's a sport mix?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AgileGSD said:


> Oh and that Scrabble dog looks like he could be a relative of Roust! He's a sport mix?


Yes:


Cassidy's Mom said:


> Scrabble's mom is Gooey, who is a Border Collie/Border Terrier/Malinois mix, and his dad is Fusel, a Malinois who was used in the Military Working Dog Program at Lackland AFB. Fusel belongs to her boyfriend Andrew Ramsey, who was our nosework trainer, and he's also sired some LDS litters.


Here's Fusel's pedigree:  Culprit | Malinois du Ciel Rouge


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Shaina said:


> I can say Im one of the lucky ones that has a GSD in a malinois body. My girl will be 2 in March and she's about 58lbs and pretty short; I actually started posting here concerned that I had an abnormally small dog LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a GSD in a mal body too. 7 months and 36-38 pounds and about 20-21 inches. She's so fast and agile. But much smaller than other GSD I meet. And smaller than even the mals I've seen recently. But I love her. And she's got crazy drive. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Capone22 said:


> I have a GSD in a mal body too. 7 months and 36-38 pounds and about 20-21 inches. She's so fast and agile. But much smaller than other GSD I meet. And smaller than even the mals I've seen recently. But I love her. And she's got crazy drive.


 What about her makes her a Mal in a GSD's body? If she's only 7 months old, she's going to end up being in standard for a GSD bitch. GSDs should be high drive and eager to work and IME that's pretty typical in the working lines. 

FWIW standard wise, Mals and GSDs have the same height standard. Mals tend to be lighter boned and shorter bodied, so they tend to a little weigh less.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We just got a mini sized mal in our club - he was returned to the breeder due to unforeseen circumstances, and our co-director, who knows the breeder and had always wanted to own a mal one day, decided to take him. Rush is a cousin of Loki in our club, (pictured in an earlier post above), from the same breeder. Rush is 19" and 34 pounds, and his dam and Loki's dam are half sisters. Apparently, both parents are a more typical malinois size (she said what they weighed, but I don't recall), and one of his female littermates is quite a bit bigger than he is, at 24" tall. 

This is his litter: Red Litter


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Cute little pups!


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