# "Guard Dogs" seized from K-9 International, LLC in Florida



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Guard dogs placed in custody of Animal Care and Control in danger of being put down

Excerpt. (Ignore the bad reporting...)



> From July through September, the county confiscated 18 dogs from Royal Palm Beach-based K9 International LLC and its owner Augustin "Gus" Artiles. One of the dogs died in custody; another gave birth to a single pup.
> 
> 
> In a three-day custody hearing last week, veterinarians and animal control officers for the county described the dogs seized as being severely underweight, tick-infested and suffering from a multitude of infections.
> ...


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

That's so sad. I hate seeing stuff like this....

But... Belgiums? Really? :/


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Yeah, not terribly impressed with the reporting on this one, especially the "Belgium" Malinois who are "a type of German Shepherd." FAIL.

I feel bad for the dogs, too. I looked up that company's website, and they do narcotics and explosives dogs, too. I wonder if anyone has looked at the dogs to see whether any of them are trained to do narcotics or explosives and would be suitable to go to a law enforcement agency, rather than being PTS?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats horrible. which then points to another problem... a type of german shepherd?! seriously now its going to lead to over breeding of mals because some idiot didnt do research for accuracy in his article. I feel bad for these dogs.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

KZoppa said:


> thats horrible. which then points to another problem... a type of german shepherd?! seriously now its going to lead to over breeding of mals because some idiot didnt do research for accuracy in his article. I feel bad for these dogs.


 I never know what people mean by "overbreeding" but unfortunately, Mals are already being carelessly bred. There are more Mals in rescue than the other varieties combined. It is different from GSDs because Mals aren't as numerous or as popular, so there aren't a lot of pet breeders of them advertising in papers. What there is, is a number of people carelessly breeding them under the guide of breeding "working dogs" and thinking police departments will want them. Someone I know recently spoke to a Mal breeder who was many states away. She asked the breeder lots of questions but the breeder provided little info. Puppies are $600, they can ship them any time, have lots of drive so would be good for agility and they show no signs of animal aggression (at 8 weeks old...). They didn't ask her anything and didn't answer quite a few of her questions. These were working/sport bred Mals, she had no experience with Belgians of any sort and would need to have the puppy shipped to her. Such scenarios are not uncommon with Mals though. It's a sad situation but I doubt this article or event will change things for Mals one way or another.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

This is like 10 miles from my house! I cannot foster because I have young children and these dogs may be unpredictable but if rescue needs help pulling any of the dogs I can help with that!


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

The Mal is a shepherd, it's just not a German Shepherd. 

DFrost


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope they can get the mals into mal rescue. I met a couple recently who were gaga over Rafi. They had wanted a mal and had called a breeder on the east coast and he refused to sell them a dog. Told them they weren't for everyone. These people definitely were into Rafi b/c he's was good looking, well trained and sporty but they really didn't know the first thing about dogs. That made them think twice about whether they really wanted a mal and instead they bought some sort of little thing. 

Mals are all over Ohio (lots to buy and in shelters) and I've seen them up on Craig's List here listed by a guy who buys Mals cheaply from down south and brings them up here to train and sell to police depts. Sometimes he doesn't have time for all of them though and ends up just selling unsocialized 6 mo puppies to people over Craig's List. :thumbsdown:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> I hope they can get the mals into mal rescue. I met a couple recently who were gaga over Rafi. They had wanted a mal and had called a breeder on the east coast and he refused to sell them a dog. Told them they weren't for everyone. These people definitely were into Rafi b/c he's was good looking, well trained and sporty but they really didn't know the first thing about dogs. That made them think twice about whether they really wanted a mal and instead they bought some sort of little thing.
> 
> Mals are all over Ohio (lots to buy and in shelters) and I've seen them up on Craig's List here listed by a guy who buys Mals cheaply from down south and brings them up here to train and sell to police depts. *Sometimes he doesn't have time for all of them though and ends up just selling unsocialized 6 mo puppies to people over Craig's List.* :thumbsdown:


 

well thats definitely no good!!! poor dogs. I wouldnt even get a mal until my kids were in school all day just so i could have the larger amount of time to dedicate to them but even then i'd get a dutch shepherd first.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Chris...I agree with you.
*Also...before anyone jumps to conclusions about the "true" condition of these dogs....remember, most AC have no idea that slim, muscled dogs are in fact healthy...most think that any dog this is not over weight...is under weight, and starving.*
The flea & tick issue can also be because Florida has one of the highest epidemics this year...
I will never condone animal cruelty "on any level"...but before I would base an opinion...I would need more facts & pictures.
This was an animal business....and their "housing & care" is not generally the same as companion animals. I just can't see the businesses "paying" for their services IF the animals were in fact in such poor condition.
I've visited "training facilities" and dogs were kept in runs, were lean & had food /water......but I could easily imagine that someone would not think that their "care" was suitable by some people's standards.
JMO


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

More:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/county-animal-control-seizes-another-guard-dog-3-995584.html

Two more dead puppies found where Palm Beach County confiscated sickly female guard dog


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Steven Seagal uses that company for training of his two German Shepherds....they were on an episode of Steven Seagal, Lawman yesterday.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree with Robin that I would like to see photos. Most of the articles have described the health problems to run from "sickly thin" to "tick infested". I wonder what their definition of "sickly thin" is? Would this be a "sickly thin" dog?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just because dogs are not companion dogs doesn't mean they should be in poor physical condition. It sounds like these dogs weren't being properly cared for.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> I agree with Robin that I would like to see photos. Most of the articles have described the health problems to run from "sickly thin" to "tick infested". I wonder what their definition of "sickly thin" is? Would this be a "sickly thin" dog?


I know a lot of people that would say that dog is starving.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I know a lot of people that would say that dog is starving.


 
i agree. My MIL would be freaking out at how thin that Mal is but she also has fat dogs.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I know a lot of people that would say that dog is starving.


If you listened to people who see my Mal, they're convinced she's starving, too. Which is kind of my point. Just because AC says they are "sickly thin" doesn't necessarily mean they are. I would like to see a list of health issues other than "thin" and ticks and pictures of the dogs to see exactly what condition they are in.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Sorry but that mal pictured is too thin. I've seen a lot of mals in working condition (on our dept) and not a one of them looks like that. They are LEAN but that's no excuse for the rib cage sticking out that bad and the major tuck behind it.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Sorry but that mal pictured is too thin.


Have you considered that the dog in the photo looks skinnier than he is because of the pose and the photo? I don't have any of him just standing normally but have a few of him sitting or working and he's not "too thin". Then again, I'd rather see a dog where I can see a few ribs than a dog that is too heavy any day. I guess opinions vary. The point is, just because a dog shows a few ribs does not mean he's "sickly thin", nor does it mean that the dog isn't a perfectly healthy, fit, working dog.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree I'd rather see them a little lean vs a little fat, but he still looks too skinny too me, even in the second pic. I'm not saying he's starving or neglecting that dog, but it needs more food or higher calorie food if he won't eat more in quantity.

Lean is good. Skinny is not.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Malinois Rescue took the mama and newborns. They are going into foster.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Deuce said:


> Steven Seagal uses that company for training of his two German Shepherds....they were on an episode of Steven Seagal, Lawman yesterday.


 
No, His dogs come from CPI in Mass.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

AbbyK9 said:


> Have you considered that the dog in the photo looks skinnier than he is because of the pose and the photo? I don't have any of him just standing normally but have a few of him sitting or working and he's not "too thin". Then again, I'd rather see a dog where I can see a few ribs than a dog that is too heavy any day. I guess opinions vary. The point is, just because a dog shows a few ribs does not mean he's "sickly thin", nor does it mean that the dog isn't a perfectly healthy, fit, working dog.


A few ribs is not the same as every rib. You posted the photos. If you have photos that show him in good condition then perhaps for the sake of the discussion you should post them? I don't think a dog pictured standing or slightly crouching should show every rib like that. And as I've said, we have experience with working mals and none of them look like that.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

If we're talking about the mal in the picture above, I sure wouldn't want any more weight on that dog. He's about right. Good definition in the chest and front shoulder. Five pounds would make him look fat. 

DFrost


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

DFrost said:


> If we're talking about the mal in the picture above, I sure wouldn't want any more weight on that dog. He's about right. Good definition in the chest and front shoulder. Five pounds would make him look fat.
> 
> DFrost


 I think he looks in good condition for his breed too. Belgians generally carry very little body fat.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The first picture he looks rather thin for a Mal from the other pictures I have seen. But I have seen no Mals in person, I wish I could because they seem like awesome dogs. But I if someone were to meet this dog that is pictured and feel him maybe that could help determine if he is too skinny.


Is he one of the dogs that were taken in this situation?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

the mal in the picture looks a little on the thin side but seeing the commissary behind them, i can assume he's a military working dog and the ones i've seen have all been well muscled like this guy but also thin. They keep the dogs pretty active but dont always make up the calories that are being used. There are a couple mals and a dutchie here who i would say are thin but they're ALWAYS bouncy every time i see them.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

You only need to read through the responses to see that there are many personal opinions regarding "whats too thin, physically fit or starving".....?!
These are same "visions" that can warrant the seizure of people's dogs....

Again....not enough information to condemn anyone.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree I need photos, I do however question why a bitch is out working when she is about to give birth? Unless I missed something she was guarding, seems to me if your a responsible breeder then mommy should be in comfort when ready to whelp. JMO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> More:
> County animal control seizes another guard dog; 3 puppies found dead in dumpster
> 
> Two more dead puppies found where Palm Beach County confiscated sickly female guard dog


I believe there were other things besides body size.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Here's the momma and puppies on transport. I hear she's very sweet.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

awwwwwww ow cute !


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Aside from sicky thin, it sounds like tehre are an awful lot of dead puppies in dumpsters.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Is he one of the dogs that were taken in this situation?


No, he is not one of the ones seized in this situation. I was using the photo to illustrate what robinhuerta was trying to say regarding body condition. What a lot of people consider to be "way too thin" is what a lot of working Malinois look like - thin, but well-muscled. Like DFrost, robin, and AgileGSD, I like to see a thin, well-muscled dog. I like to see a few ribs and there's nothing wrong with a dog being in that condition. But there are lots of people working in Animal Control who'd be like OMG! The dog is STARVING! So when these articles go on and on about "sickly thin" I just have to wonder what the actual condition of the dogs is.

I am aware that they found dead puppies but as no other information has been given, such as how they died (did mom crush them? Were they sick?) I have not commented on the dead puppies. Beyond the pups, all the articles talk about was the dogs being thin and having ticks. Like I said ... I'd like to see a picture of how "thin" the dogs actually are.

Side note, that momma dog and her pups are adorable. ^^ I wonder if the pups will be available through the rescue when they're old enough? Does anyone know which rescue took them? (Not that I need a puppy ... but .... awww ... little Maligators!)


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> (Not that I need a puppy ... but .... awww ... little Maligators!)


And you told me it was your husband that wanted a puppy


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> And you told me it was your husband that wanted a puppy


Of course HE wants a puppy. Ideally while he's deployed. So he won't actually have to deal with housebreaking or training. XD Husbands! (And I told him we really don't need another dog. But they sure are cute, the little Mal-sausages above.)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Why was the mother having puppies on the job? I can think of no justification for not providing her with a private and comfortable whelping area and having people there to check on her to be sure everything went well. 

I am glad that she is in rescue now. The puppies are adorable. 

I am also glad that regulations for working dog care are being taken seriously in some areas of the country.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

I believe, it's Palm beach animal care and control (my county) let me know if I can be of assistance!


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Why was the mother having puppies on the job? I can think of no justification for not providing her with a private and comfortable whelping area and having people there to check on her to be sure everything went well.


I agree.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> Side note, that momma dog and her pups are adorable. ^^ I wonder if the pups will be available through the rescue when they're old enough? Does anyone know which rescue took them? (Not that I need a puppy ... but .... awww ... little Maligators!)


ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois

^ has them. If you want a puppy it's best to pre-apply. Seems like they get a fair amount of puppies. 

They have a facebook page, also. 
Welcome to Facebook


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Glad the Mals are going into rescue.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Jgk2383 said:


> No, His dogs come from CPI in Mass.


Are you sure? My mistake then, thought it was these folks


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

BlackPuppy said:


> ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois
> 
> ^ has them. If you want a puppy it's best to pre-apply. Seems like they get a fair amount of puppies.
> 
> ...


 They do get a fair amount of puppies in Mal rescue. As I said earlier, there is a lot of careless breeding of them


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

AgileGSD said:


> They do get a fair amount of puppies in Mal rescue. As I said earlier, there is a lot of careless breeding of them


Seems like it's mostly in Florida.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've got Mals, Dutchies and GSD's in my program. One way I can tell how hard a Trooper is training and working is by watching the weight of a dog. Any increase or decrease of 10% requires a little more attention on my part. Another way I tell is if a dog needs his nails clipped. If the handler is working his dog, like he should be, the nails rarely ever need clipped. Lean and mean (well within reason).

DFrost


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Puppies!! I am glad the momma and pups are alright.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois
> 
> ^ has them. If you want a puppy it's best to pre-apply. Seems like they get a fair amount of puppies


:headbang: I'm hiding that fact and the website link from my hubby. I do NOT need a puppy right now. Really. (But ****, they're cute!)


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> :headbang: I'm hiding that fact and the website link from my hubby. I do NOT need a puppy right now. Really. (But ****, they're cute!)


They have a 5 month old puppy in need of a foster home. It would just be "temporary".


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Oh, for crying out loud!


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