# Opinions? White feet?



## JunebabyRN

Hello,

We saw this litter or GSD puppies this weekend at a reputable breeder in our area. They are three weeks old.

We were a little surprised by the white paws which make these puppies look atypical to me.

Is this unusual and should we be concerned? breeder says it will blend to tan but it looks pretty prominent to me. All the pups in this litter have one or more paws with white patches and a couple have white chest patches.

Opinions? should I wait for the next planned litter? We don't intend to show her.

thanks in advance
J


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## onyx'girl

I have a dog with white spotting, it didn't blend to tan but isn't that noticable. She should have pencil toes, but the white spotting masks it.
The next litter by my dogs breeder had a pup with white sox it was pretty extreme(different sire). 
If you like the pedigree and temperament of the parents the white shouldn't make a difference, IMO...


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## JunebabyRN

Thank you for your response. Is the amount of white on these paws unusual?
J


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## onyx'girl

I'd say it is uncommon. Has the mother or sire of the litter had pups before? Can you see how they are turning out(not just color-wise)?


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## dbrk9

Are you going to show your puppy? When I was looking I didn't see white paws like that only spots on the chest...they are cute. I would think it wouldn't matter unless you were looking to breed or show.


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## PatchonGSD

I had a female gsd with a white leg- clear up to her elbow. She was a great dog, and it was unique I thought. She was a blanket B&T otherwise.


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## JunebabyRN

onyx'girl said:


> I'd say it is uncommon. Has the mother or sire of the litter had pups before? Can you see how they are turning out(not just color-wise)?


I understood the breeder to say this was the second litter for this mother and not sure on the dam. Good idea though for me to check out. Thank you


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## JunebabyRN

dbrk9 said:


> Are you going to show your puppy? When I was looking I didn't see white paws like that only spots on the chest...they are cute. I would think it wouldn't matter unless you were looking to breed or show.


Thank you for your response.

No we don't plan to show her. I would like to work toward agility and obedience. The pups are so cute and both parents have a "good temperament" according to the breeder.

Thanks again
J


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## Elaine

Were the parents titled and/or OFA'd?


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## JunebabyRN

Elaine said:


> Were the parents titled and/or OFA'd?


Both parents are Registered and the Sire has the Ch designation which I understand he must have won a title. Not sure about the dam.

If they are, would the white paws signify a problem? 

thanks
J


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## Elaine

You might want to research the breed and various things before getting a puppy. There are a number of things you should consider before deciding on a breeder. If you buy from a good reputable breeder, you will find the parents are titled, have been OFA'd, and there will be a contract. Buying from a lesser breeder, you can end up with expensive heartbreaking health problems and lots of problems with the breeder. I'm not saying anything about this breeder, but it's something you should look into. You can get a puppy with health problems from any breeder, but your chances of getting a healthy, stable, social pup are significantly increased if you go to a good breeder.

You should know the specific titles of the parents, are they AKC or other registered, were the parents OFA'd, and what type of GSDs these are. Once you know these things, you should go on line to make sure the breeder told you the truth. 

I question the quality of these pups due to the white feet. It's not something you find very often in a well bred pup.


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## Woof_Terrorist

Elaine said:


> You might want to research the breed and various things before getting a puppy. There are a number of things you should consider before deciding on a breeder. If you buy from a good reputable breeder, you will find the parents are titled, have been OFA'd, and there will be a contract. Buying from a lesser breeder, you can end up with expensive heartbreaking health problems and lots of problems with the breeder. I'm not saying anything about this breeder, but it's something you should look into. You can get a puppy with health problems from any breeder, but your chances of getting a healthy, stable, social pup are significantly increased if you go to a good breeder.
> 
> You should know the specific titles of the parents, are they AKC or other registered, were the parents OFA'd, and what type of GSDs these are. Once you know these things, you should go on line to make sure the breeder told you the truth.
> 
> I question the quality of these pups due to the white feet. It's not something you find very often in a well bred pup.



^ This! Well written. Yeah white paws are cute, but in a GSD? 

Also, the pup should be guaranteed for 1 to 2 years for hips and joints. As the last poster said : a contract.


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## JunebabyRN

Thanks you for the info. I have read and researched so much and everything we saw at this breeder impressed us, great history, dogs sith titles and impressive pedigrees, all are CKC registered. The pup is health guaranteed and we will get pet insurance for six months along with registration papers. We live in Canada so perhaps there are some differences.

We were so surprised to see these white paws, I have looked at many pups. This one is not cheap....1500$.

I am not sure I like the look and I worry about standards etc. We have paid 500$ deposit on a puppy and now I am worried.

Thanks again.
J


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## PatchonGSD

While I personally think the white feet are cute, Based on what the parents are lacking and that this is technically a color fault I *think* I would NOT pay $1500.00 I probably would not pay $500.00. Is your deposit refundable?


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## JunebabyRN

PatchonGSD said:


> While I personally think the white feet are cute, Based on what the parents are lacking and that this is technically a color fault I *think* I would NOT pay $1500.00 I probably would not pay $500.00. Is your deposit refundable?


Nope we signed a non refundable deposit contract to take one of these pups. We first saw them at two weeks and they just looked black, neither parents have white visible.
Not sure what to do. We were surprised to see the white. Breeder was like ya I don't know where that came from. 

We did all the things the CKC suggests to find a good pup and now they have white paws......so confusing.


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## Stosh

Stosh had white on his paws and chest when he was little- he still has a touch of it on his chest but the white on the feet is gone. I wouldn't sweat it


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## PatchonGSD

The white wont make him/her any less GSD. You never know, as stosh said, the white might fade away as well. Since you have $500.00 in it already, I would say go for it. If your pup turns out to be a great dog that loves you unconditionally, as I'm sure it will, does the white feet really matter?


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## Heidigsd

Nikki has a white paw :wub:


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## JunebabyRN

Heidigsd said:


> Nikki has a white paw :wub:


What a beauty.


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## JunebabyRN

PatchonGSD said:


> The white wont make him/her any less GSD. You never know, as stosh said, the white might fade away as well. Since you have $500.00 in it already, I would say go for it. If your pup turns out to be a great dog that loves you unconditionally, as I'm sure it will, does the white feet really matter?


So true about the love, this will be a pampered pooch regardless. I don't think the coat colouration is linked to any particular health related issues.....fingers crossed.


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## PatchonGSD

JunebabyRN said:


> So true about the love, this will be a pampered pooch regardless. I don't think the coat colouration is linked to any particular health related issues.....fingers crossed.



To my knowledge there is no coat color in the GSD that corresponds with any health issues.....

I know with Aussies and boxers and a couple other breeds solid white can be associated with deafness and sometimes blindness. Is that what you're worried about with the white?


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## JunebabyRN

PatchonGSD said:


> To my knowledge there is no coat color in the GSD that corresponds with any health issues.....
> 
> I know with Aussies and boxers and a couple other breeds solid white can be associated with deafness and sometimes blindness. Is that what you're worried about with the white?


I am curious to make sure it does not signify any particular gene expressed problem. We are also paying 1500$ for a pup we had hoped met breed standard considering the pedigree. Thanks for sharing. 
J


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## Heidigsd

JunebabyRN said:


> What a beauty.


Thank you! She is beautiful and very lovable. Nikki will be three in November and still has a lot of white on that paw.

Good luck with your new pup 

Michaela


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## JunebabyRN

Heidigsd said:


> Thank you! She is beautiful and very lovable. Nikki will be three in November and still has a lot of white on that paw.
> 
> Good luck with your new pup
> 
> Michaela


See the white on your pup looks different than the pups in the photo which makes me wonder about their pedigree, although on paper it is impeccable. Maybe when we see them again at six weeks it will look different again. Thanks for sharing.
Jacqueline


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## cliffson1

It has been my experience that you see more white in American lines than Eurpoean lines. White on feet is not as frequent as on chest, and extensive white on feet is seldom seen. I have found German lines tend to not have much white, and many Czech/DDR dogs may have chest spots or small feet spots that go away. I have seen many top American dogs that have large white chest spots and white on legs. White has nothing to do with quality of health or dogs, but many people like myself breed away from white if possible.


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## PatchonGSD

JunebabyRN said:


> I am curious to make sure it does not signify any particular gene expressed problem. We are also paying 1500$ for a pup we had hoped met breed standard considering the pedigree. Thanks for sharing.
> J



I can certainly understand why you prefer not have the white feet, and for the amount you are paying, I know there are several breeders on this forum who would have guaranteed you exactly what you wanted and given you a great contract/health guarantee and a puppy by proven parents for that price. I guess thats still an option if you are willing to cut your losses with the $500.00 bucks. 
Sounds like you might have gotten yourself tangled with up a not so great/experienced breeder anyway.


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## Heidigsd

JunebabyRN said:


> See the white on your pup looks different than the pups in the photo which makes me wonder about their pedigree, although on paper it is impeccable. Maybe when we see them again at six weeks it will look different again. Thanks for sharing.
> Jacqueline


Here you can see pictures of Nikki (purple girl) and her littermates: von Jagenstadt German Shepherd Dogs


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## JunebabyRN

Heidigsd said:


> Here you can see pictures of Nikki (purple girl) and her littermates: von Jagenstadt German Shepherd Dogs


Thank you for the photo link, I had not seen them and have not actually seen any other pups with white paws but yup these do look the same.....

so cute, and the parents have great temperaments so I think the white feet won't matter.

thanks again
Jacqueline


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## msvette2u

Wow. Some of those tails _curl._ In fact ALL of Michaela x Victor's puppies have curly tails...wow.

Looks like a husky jumped the fence (but I doubt that happened...right??)


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## Heidigsd

msvette2u said:


> Wow. Some of those tails _curl._ In fact ALL of Michaela x Victor's puppies have curly tails...wow.
> 
> Looks like a husky jumped the fence (but I doubt that happened...right??)


Nope...you figured it out, they are mixed with Husky


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## Andaka

If there s a lot of Select Ch. Stuttgart's Sundance Kid ROM in the pedigree, you are more likely to get white feet at a young age. When we bred to Sundance Kid, we had a female puppy that we jokingly refered to as the "tri-colored" pup. Her white went all the waay up her front legs to her chest at 8 weeks. But the color (tan) filled in with her adult coat.

One of my champion bitches was also born with white feet, but her color also came in and she was able to be shown to her championship. 

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.


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## msvette2u

Heidigsd said:


> Nope...you figured it out, they are mixed with Husky


Ouch 

The orphan litter we had, some of the tips of their toes were white but changed to tan by 8 weeks, if I remember right.


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## JunebabyRN

Heidigsd said:


> Nope...you figured it out, they are mixed with Husky


I trust this is sarcastic? hard to tell online sometimes lol. I only care as we don't want a pup with husky in......


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## Heidigsd

JunebabyRN said:


> I trust this is sarcastic? hard to tell online sometimes lol. I only care as we don't want a pup with husky in......


Sorry but I couldn't help myself, yes I was being sarcastic. If you would like to see some pictures of my GSD/Husky mix all grown up just send me PM with your e-mail


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## msvette2u

Well, white toes that persist into adulthood are non standard but also "gay tails" are non standard. 
I know puppies change a lot too...but to see a litter of all curled tails was strange


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## Andaka

msvette2u said:


> Well, white toes that persist into adulthood are non standard but also "gay tails" are non standard.
> I know puppies change a lot too...but to see a litter of all curled tails was strange


But not uncommon, depending on what the puppies were doing at the time. At that age, their croups are flat, and when they get agitated (as when playing with the other puppies) the tails can curl over the back. The photos were just a snapshot of time and they don't mean that the tails are always curled over the back.


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## Woof_Terrorist

This is a tough call. I feel your anxiety.

The white markings - are not usual, but they do happen. On one hand you have already made the down payment and you just want to bring the ball of fur home, on the other you are concerned about getting what you paid for. 

There is a chance that the markings will fade. 

Also:

German Shepherd Dog Page

*Color* 
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are _serious faults._ A white dog must be _disqualified._

Note: it says nothing about white markings. Nothing good, nothing bad.

But ultimately, its your call.

Keep in mind, its a 12 to 17 year commitment, and you dont want that nagging thought at the back of your head. 

Do this : toss a coin : heads - bring him, tails - try to get money back. Then toss the coin real high. And watch your own thoughts as to what side of the coin you want to come up. What is your inner voice rooting for?

Let the coin fall, dont look at it... go with what your instincts just told you. 

EDIT: But yes, if you do decide to get the dog, negotiate your butt off to bring the price down. One thing I am certain, white markings dont get $1500.


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## selzer

Woof_Terrorist said:


> EDIT: But yes, if you do decide to get the dog, negotiate your butt off to bring the price down. *One thing I am certain, white markings dont get $1500*.


Why?

Are you familiar with show lines at all?

It sounds like Andaka is, and she has shown dogs to their champion level that had white toes as pups. 

Are you expecting that the dog with white toes is less a GSD?

Are you expecting it to require higher quality food, more food, more trips to the vet, more training than a dog with tan toes at whatever age it currently is?

Was it cheaper to conceive, to whelp, to raise?

Is it more or less likely to do what it is intended for?

This is not a disqualifying fault, why would the OP be entitled to her money back on a non-refundable deposit, or a lower price. She said she doesn't intend to show anyway, but a show-quality pup actually often goes for a lot more than $1500.


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## Typhoon

If it was me, and I was concerned about the feet staying white, I'd be a little concerned that the toenails on the pups are so white. If they had any pigmentation to them at all, I'd be a little more confident that they'd turn tan as the adult coat comes in.

And that would lead me to be a little leery of the breeder's assurance that they'd turn to tan. Maybe the breeder knows the line and speaks from experience...but if that's the case, he should have some documented examples; pictures, people to call, etc.

As it is, the assurance sounds to me a little like a salesman out to move the merchandise, and not so much like a breeder trying to help you to make an informed decision.


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## Mikelia

First of all white feet will have nothing to do with the health or temperament of your dog. However white markings are frowned upon, and the standard states they must have black nails. Dogs with white feet often have white nails.
My two cents - those are completely white feet, not just two white toes. The white does tend to fade, get smaller and tan takes it's place, but rarely goes away completely. If a gsd pup has a white toe at that age, it is likely it will have no white as an adult. But all white feet leads me to think they are going to have a significant amount of white as an adult. 
I have to say that if I bred a litter of pups with white feet like that I would not be charging full price for them and would seriously reconsider my breeding lines.
I am new to this board and a little confused about posting pictures but I think I attached a picture of my boy at 7 weeks old - you can clearly see two white toe tips on his left front foot. He is three years old now and a lot of the white did turn to tan, however there is still white on his toes and one of the nails is white. Drives me insane. Does not make him any less of a dog but it is not correct. Good breeders try to breed away from the white. 
If you do not care if your dog has white feet and want to support a breeder who doesn't seem to care about breeding true then go for it. However I would be more leery that the breeder is charging full price, claiming she 'doesn't know how that happened' but is adamant it will go away. Unless this happens often with her bloodlines (which doesn't sound like it as she doesn't know how it happened) and she knows this bitch throws white feet but they always turn to tan I personally would walk away.


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## JakodaCD OA

I didn't know about the Sundance thing,,the ASL dog I had also had white toes (and had sundance behind him), but as Daphne said, they faded out into tan as he went into his adult coat.


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## JunebabyRN

Mikelia said:


> First of all white feet will have nothing to do with the health or temperament of your dog. However white markings are frowned upon, and the standard states they must have black nails. Dogs with white feet often have white nails.
> My two cents - those are completely white feet, not just two white toes. The white does tend to fade, get smaller and tan takes it's place, but rarely goes away completely. If a gsd pup has a white toe at that age, it is likely it will have no white as an adult. But all white feet leads me to think they are going to have a significant amount of white as an adult.
> I have to say that if I bred a litter of pups with white feet like that I would not be charging full price for them and would seriously reconsider my breeding lines.
> I am new to this board and a little confused about posting pictures but I think I attached a picture of my boy at 7 weeks old - you can clearly see two white toe tips on his left front foot. He is three years old now and a lot of the white did turn to tan, however there is still white on his toes and one of the nails is white. Drives me insane. Does not make him any less of a dog but it is not correct. Good breeders try to breed away from the white.
> If you do not care if your dog has white feet and want to support a breeder who doesn't seem to care about breeding true then go for it. However I would be more leery that the breeder is charging full price, claiming she 'doesn't know how that happened' but is adamant it will go away. Unless this happens often with her bloodlines (which doesn't sound like it as she doesn't know how it happened) and she knows this bitch throws white feet but they always turn to tan I personally would walk away.


Thank you for your input. I agree it seems like the breeder is dismissing my concern and continues to charge full price. She sent me an email saying I am "over-thinking" this matter and it is not a problem.

These pups just don't look like classic GSD pups to me. We will see them again in another two weeks and I will re-evaluate. 

This breeder has all the items good dog books suggest to look for...... i think this is an anomaly but I don't like the look of the white paws. I will ask her if we can wait for the next litter.

This breeder has 35 years experience, multiple titled dogs, impressive pedigrees etc etc etc so I will see how the pups look at six weeks and if we are not happy I will wait.

thanks again for your feedback. 
J


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## JunebabyRN

Typhoon said:


> If it was me, and I was concerned about the feet staying white, I'd be a little concerned that the toenails on the pups are so white. If they had any pigmentation to them at all, I'd be a little more confident that they'd turn tan as the adult coat comes in.
> 
> And that would lead me to be a little leery of the breeder's assurance that they'd turn to tan. Maybe the breeder knows the line and speaks from experience...but if that's the case, he should have some documented examples; pictures, people to call, etc.
> 
> As it is, the assurance sounds to me a little like a salesman out to move the merchandise, and not so much like a breeder trying to help you to make an informed decision.


Thank you,

The nails are very white on these pups. I think I will wait for her next litter with a different breeding. This seemed to me like it was a bit of a surprise to the breeder. I asked if this had occurred before but did not get a response to that specific question so I have no history to consider. 

We will see these pups again at six weeks so I will decide then whether to wait for the next litter.

Cheers
J


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## JunebabyRN

Another one of the pups, this one has all four paws showing white.....so sweet but looks atypical to me


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> It has been my experience that you see more white in American lines than Eurpoean lines. White on feet is not as frequent as on chest, and extensive white on feet is seldom seen. I have found German lines tend to not have much white, and many Czech/DDR dogs may have chest spots or small feet spots that go away. I have seen many top American dogs that have large white chest spots and white on legs. White has nothing to do with quality of health or dogs, but many people like myself breed away from white if possible.


This.


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## JunebabyRN

Mrs.K said:


> This.


Thank you


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## cliffson1

If I had a litter with pups or a pup with all four feet white and white toenails, I would not do a repeat breeding. (with those two dogs to each other)


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## middleofnowhere

Question: CKC - Contenental Kennel Club or Canadian Kennel Club?


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## Whiteshepherds

Obviously this isn't a problem at my house , but isn't the gene that produces white toe nails different from the one that produces the white toes?


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## lhczth

My gosh some of the responses in this thread are just plain crazy. My female with a white foot. The back one went away. The front one has faded, but is still white. Her toenails are black. The one foot (one judge called her "Miss White Foot") sure hasn't taken anything away from her. 

As a puppy. 









As an adult.


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## robinhuerta

Been there...done that.
Had a litter with 2 puppies having white toes/feet.
BOTH puppies placed VP2 in the German Conformation style Shows.....
BOTH puppies have matured into great young dogs.....with "barely" the visible signs of white toe tips.

Does it happen?....absolutely YES.
Does it change the integrity of the breeder or the breeding?.....absolutely NO.
*Most white toes/feet (even on all 4 legs)...can & do disappear as the puppies grow.......
Having white anywhere on a GSD puppy is irrelevant as to the puppies health and temperament.
Although I would be careful _(myself, as a breeder)_ to take *special notice* as to where the "white" markings may have stemmed from....and make future breeding decisions with that knowledge in hand.
JMO


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## Woof_Terrorist

selzer said:


> Why?
> 
> Are you familiar with show lines at all?
> 
> ......
> 
> This is not a disqualifying fault, why would the OP be entitled to her money back on a non-refundable deposit, or a lower price. She said she doesn't intend to show anyway, but a show-quality pup actually often goes for a lot more than $1500.


I think the posts following yours have answered your question. 

And I am assuming from your signature you are a breeder. lol. 

Lots of good advise given, so nothing more for me to add.


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## JunebabyRN

middleofnowhere said:


> Question: CKC - Contenental Kennel Club or Canadian Kennel Club?


Canadian Kennel Club


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## JunebabyRN

robinhuerta said:


> Been there...done that.
> Had a litter with 2 puppies having white toes/feet.
> BOTH puppies placed VP2 in the German Conformation style Shows.....
> BOTH puppies have matured into great young dogs.....with "barely" the visible signs of white toe tips.
> 
> Does it happen?....absolutely YES.
> Does it change the integrity of the breeder or the breeding?.....absolutely NO.
> *Most white toes/feet (even on all 4 legs)...can & do disappear as the puppies grow.......
> Having white anywhere on a GSD puppy is irrelevant as to the puppies health and temperament.
> Although I would be careful _(myself, as a breeder)_ to take *special notice* as to where the "white" markings may have stemmed from....and make future breeding decisions with that knowledge in hand.
> JMO


Thank you for your input. The breeder of these pups has been doing this a long time. I believe she is surprised to see these white paws, wasn't expected. 

Our main concern is health and temperament and there does not seem to be any link to health issues.

I was curious to ensure it happens with solid pedigree dogs and not that she had an "accident" conception. Lots of comments to suggest it does indeed happen in the GSD even with a solid pedigree.

J


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## JunebabyRN

Woof_Terrorist said:


> This is a tough call. I feel your anxiety.
> 
> The white markings - are not usual, but they do happen. On one hand you have already made the down payment and you just want to bring the ball of fur home, on the other you are concerned about getting what you paid for.
> 
> There is a chance that the markings will fade.
> 
> Also:
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Page
> 
> *Color*
> The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are _serious faults._ A white dog must be _disqualified._
> 
> Note: it says nothing about white markings. Nothing good, nothing bad.
> 
> But ultimately, its your call.
> 
> Keep in mind, its a 12 to 17 year commitment, and you dont want that nagging thought at the back of your head.
> 
> Do this : toss a coin : heads - bring him, tails - try to get money back. Then toss the coin real high. And watch your own thoughts as to what side of the coin you want to come up. What is your inner voice rooting for?
> 
> Let the coin fall, dont look at it... go with what your instincts just told you.
> 
> EDIT: But yes, if you do decide to get the dog, negotiate your butt off to bring the price down. One thing I am certain, white markings dont get $1500.


Thank you for your input. We will see these pups again at six weeks, then I will decide.


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## JunebabyRN

lhczth said:


> My gosh some of the responses in this thread are just plain crazy. My female with a white foot. The back one went away. The front one has faded, but is still white. Her toenails are black. The one foot (one judge called her "Miss White Foot") sure hasn't taken anything away from her.
> 
> As a puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an adult.



Thank you for the photos. this is helpful


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## Chris Wild

I absolutely do not understand some of these posts, and completely disagree with statements like "white markings doesn't bring X price".

Whether a person can accept white markings is a matter of personal preference. If they don't bother you and everything else is in order, get the pup. If they do bother you, and it might nag you forever or cause you to think less of the dog and you feel you'd be settling, then don't get the pup.

One thing I do know, in a breed where health and temperament problems are rampant I certainly wouldn't be throwing the fit that some here are about white markings! Are they desireable under the standard? No. But they are also considered a very minor fault. One that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality of the animal and certainly shouldn't demand a discount or anything of the sort. There are far bigger concerns in this breed than some white feet, that's for certain.


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## JunebabyRN

Chris Wild said:


> I absolutely do not understand some of these posts, and completely disagree with statements like "white markings doesn't bring X price".
> 
> Whether a person can accept white markings is a matter of personal preference. If they don't bother you and everything else is in order, get the pup. If they do bother you, and it might nag you forever or cause you to think less of the dog and you feel you'd be settling, then don't get the pup.
> 
> One thing I do know, in a breed where health and temperament problems are rampant I certainly wouldn't be throwing the fit that some here are about white markings! Are they desireable under the standard? No. But they are also considered a very minor fault. One that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality of the animal and certainly shouldn't demand a discount or anything of the sort. There are far bigger concerns in this breed than some white feet, that's for certain.


Thank you. This has never been about the price for me and I would not take the dog just because she may offer a discount..... we are looking for a dog with sound temperament and few health issues. 

Mostly I just wanted to make sure that this was not an accidental breeding with questionable pedigree. I didn't know if white paws ever showed up in the GSD so now I have more information. We will see these pups again at six weeks then we will consider all factors in our decision. 
J


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## Heidigsd

> There are far bigger concerns in this breed than some white feet, that's for certain.


Isn't that the truth!


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## JunebabyRN

Heidigsd said:


> Isn't that the truth!


Okay you folks are scaring me. One member PM'd me and said they spent over 40 thousand dollars on vet bills for a GSD they thought was healthy.... eeek.

I am worried, we had a heartbreaking experience with our previous dog....broke our wallets and hearts when she died at two. 

We have done all the things the Canadian Kennel Club recommends to find a good breeder and healthy pups but I am nervous. I am not sure I have it in me to go through the heartbreak and financial strain of another unhealthy dog. 

I love the GSD, grew up with two, but am so worried by all the talk of problems in this breed.


----------



## Typhoon

> One thing I do know, in a breed where health and temperament problems are rampant I certainly wouldn't be throwing the fit that some here are about white markings!


I probably wouldn't either.

But what I would be concerned about is the breeder's response.



> I love the GSD, grew up with two, but am so worried by all the talk of problems in this breed.


What I'd be concerned about, is that in reading through this thread, I didn't see it anywhere mentioned just what line(s) these pups are from. Have you asked the breeder, and does the breeder know? I'd guess from the fact that one of the dogs has a Ch designation that the line is probably North American...but can the breeder answer that, and give you a good solid idea of the line(s) she used...and why?

If she can't, keep in mind that their are several varieties of German Shepherd. You can sort of generally consider them as European working lines, West German show lines, and North American lines -- sort of subdivided into actual show lines, and basic pets.

And while all of these dogs are German Shepherds, they all have varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses.

Myself, the pup I just bought, I went with a particular West German show line, although I strongly considered European working lines. My experience has been though that while any dog is a gamble, the North American pet dogs are most prone to cancer, hip dysplasia, allergies, and any number of other ailments than dogs that have been purpose bred from specific lines.

And while I'd discount the white feet (unless you just don't want a dog with white feet) my point was just to be leery of anyone more out to make the sale than to give you an honest answer.

At this point if I was in your shoes, I'd do two things: I'd call the breeder and ask her what line(s) these pups are from. Then I'd ask to see OFA certification of the sire and the dam.

If the breeder can't answer the first and doesn't have the second, I'd walk away. Deposit or no.

Best of luck.


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## JunebabyRN

Typhoon said:


> I probably wouldn't either.
> 
> But what I would be concerned about is the breeder's response.
> 
> 
> 
> What I'd be concerned about, is that in reading through this thread, I didn't see it anywhere mentioned just what line(s) these pups are from. Have you asked the breeder, and does the breeder know? I'd guess from the fact that one of the dogs has a Ch designation that the line is probably North American...but can the breeder answer that, and give you a good solid idea of the line(s) she used...and why?
> 
> If she can't, keep in mind that their are several varieties of German Shepherd. You can sort of generally consider them as European working lines, West German show lines, and North American lines -- sort of subdivided into actual show lines, and basic pets.
> 
> And while all of these dogs are German Shepherds, they all have varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> Myself, the pup I just bought, I went with a particular West German show line, although I strongly considered European working lines. My experience has been though that while any dog is a gamble, the North American pet dogs are most prone to cancer, hip dysplasia, allergies, and any number of other ailments than dogs that have been purpose bred from specific lines.
> 
> And while I'd discount the white feet (unless you just don't want a dog with white feet) my point was just to be leery of anyone more out to make the sale than to give you an honest answer.
> 
> At this point if I was in your shoes, I'd do two things: I'd call the breeder and ask her what line(s) these pups are from. Then I'd ask to see OFA certification of the sire and the dam.
> 
> If the breeder can't answer the first and doesn't have the second, I'd walk away. Deposit or no.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thank you,

Here is the answer the breeder emailed me about the white paws...

"As for the white paws, yes some of the puppies in this litter have some white on their feet. It's not a problem, chances are they will fade to tan as your puppy grows up. Whoever said it was common for it to disappear is absolutely right. There are absolutely no questions in my pedigrees, none what so ever. This litter was bred from parents who they themselves are and have been bred from top quality, award winning, pure bred American showlines. This is definitely over-thought There are a lot of "experts" out there and I can assure you that if you keep reading, you will find lots of opinions and advice that are conflicting in every topic. "

I am worried now as it sounds like American show lines are problematic...

gosh what to do? so hard to know, this is sooooo complicated.

I did ask about x-rays etc and she said they don't x-ray their dogs???? What's up with that? hmmmmm

J


----------



## Typhoon

> This is definitely over-thought. There are a lot of "experts" out there and I can assure you that if you keep reading, you will find lots of opinions and advice that are conflicting in every topic. "


Well, the second part is definitely true.

The first part...I'm not sure I agree. A good many people have suffered a good deal of grief by not putting enough thought into buying a puppy.

And while it's true there's a lot of conflicting information out there and a lot of people with some pretty strong biases saying some pretty silly things on the Internet, it's also true I think that if you read enough and read it through a good strong BS filter, you can get a pretty good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of each line of German Shepherd.



> I am worried now as it sounds like American show lines are problematic...


Well, the problem is that there aren't any requirements for breeding those lines other than registration of the sire and dam. No tests for temperament or ability or hips...Nothing.

So, you're buying an absolute unknown. And "top quality, award winning" only means conformation and any temperament that might apply to winning in the show ring, since those are the only criteria that apply.

And all that might be okay, and the nature of these dogs might suit your needs just great, if you get a good one, but, if it was me, and I was even considering buying one, I'd have to see OFA certification of the sire and the dam. That'd be a deal-breaker for me.


----------



## holland

Utimately you have to make the decision-both of my dogs had white spots on them-both have disappeared as they aged and both are working lines-it matters most to me that they are both in good health and have good temperments


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## Whiteshepherds

JunebabyRN said:


> gosh what to do? so hard to know, this is sooooo complicated.
> I did ask about x-rays etc and she said they don't x-ray their dogs???? What's up with that? hmmmmm
> J


This would be a deal breaker for me.


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## JunebabyRN

holland said:


> Utimately you have to make the decision-both of my dogs had white spots on them-both have disappeared as they aged and both are working lines-it matters most to me that they are both in good health and have good temperments


I agree health and temperament are the most important.... and we are glad to know that white paws do not seem to be linked to any scary stuff.

I had no idea when I set out to find a GSD pup that it would be, or could be, so complicated and fraught with worry over making a good choice. 

thanks for the info
J


----------



## JunebabyRN

Whiteshepherds said:


> This would be a deal breaker for me.


I am concerned by this for sure. My husband is away right now but when he gets back we will return to this breeder and ask more questions. If we are not 100% happy we will walk away. I will lose the deposit but I am okay with that. 
thanks 
J


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## N Smith

JunebabyRN said:


> I am concerned by this for sure. My husband is away right now but when he gets back we will return to this breeder and ask more questions. If we are not 100% happy we will walk away. I will lose the deposit but I am okay with that.
> thanks
> J


 
This would also be a deal breaker for me. IMO, a breeder who doesn't health test is not in it to produce a better generation than the last. Health testing is there for a reason, to help breeders see how healthy the dog really is. They can then use that information to produce a heathy next gen. With that said, even the best of breeders can end up with health problems in puppies, genetics isn't easy. But at least they did everything in their power to try and make sure they were not passing on a sick dog to a puppy buyer.

Some dogs can have HD or ED and go through most of their life asymptomatic. So if you bred one of these dogs without x-rays you would never know they were dysplastic. But the next generation may not be asymptomatic and then you are putting the families in a financial bind and taking away the quality of life from a being you created!

Just my 2cents, but I would see about getting the deposit back on the premise that you thought they health tested their dogs and you do not want to take a chance. Even if you were to wait for another breeding, the dogs still would not be health tested.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Have you read through this sticky? It looks very helpful in evaluating prospective breeders:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## JakodaCD OA

For me, the white paw thing wouldn't be a dealbreaker, however, the no health testing as in hips/elbows would be

As others have said, the most important things I look for are health and temperament. While certainly xraying parents aren't a guarantee you won't end up with a problem, it does show me the breeder is being responsible by seeing just what the status is of the breeding pair. 

I don't know if it's been answered, but has the breeder told you how old the parents of the litter are? 

Honestly, if the parents were not xrayed, I would walk away that's just me.


----------



## selzer

There are health problems in ALL the lines. The American Show lines are no more likely to have health problems than the other lines. Getting a puppy really is a gamble. Any live creature is. Sometimes all goes well and you live with your pup for 12-14 years. And sometimes your heart is broken and you lose your dog very young. 

I had an all German Showline dog that slipped a disk, and then 14 months later it ruptured and he became paralyzed. It happens. Dogs are mortal, and subject to all the things humans are, injuries, disease, cancer, etc. 

I think you look at the whole picture. People are fond of red flags. I prefer yellow flags (caution). If there are a number of yellow flags, then I would probably walk away from my deposit. 

One thing you must understand though, and that is, even if both sire and dam have all the health testing, it does not mean you will not spend a fortune at the vet with your puppy. It does not mean your puppy will not have one of those conditions the sire and dam were tested for. You can feel more confident about it. 

If your breeder is offering a good health guaranty -- one that does not require you to feed a specific food or vitamins, that does not require that you take your dog back for a replacement, then they may have had decent luck with genetic health issues.


----------



## Woof_Terrorist

JunebabyRN said:


> I agree health and temperament are the most important....
> J


Only in the EU registered whelps need to be from schutzhund parents, ergo the "temperament" is certifiable. AKC and American show lines only needs to see both parents are pure bred GSD then the dog is certified.

So effectively in the US, temperament is not mandated in to the breeding program. A breeder can assure you that the temperament is good, but without schutzhund for both parents, he cannot certify it.

Personally I prefer East European GSDs.


----------



## selzer

Woof_Terrorist said:


> Only in the EU registered whelps need to be from schutzhund parents, ergo the "temperament" is certifiable. AKC and American show lines only needs to see both parents are pure bred GSD then the dog is certified.
> 
> So effectively in the US, temperament is not mandated in to the breeding program. A breeder can assure you that the temperament is good, but without schutzhund for both parents, he cannot certify it.
> 
> Personally I prefer East European GSDs.


The OP's breeder was absolutely correct when they said you will see a lot of varying opinions about a lot of things on the internet.


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## JunebabyRN

selzer said:


> The OP's breeder was absolutely correct when they said you will see a lot of varying opinions about a lot of things on the internet.


What does OP mean?


----------



## JunebabyRN

JakodaCD OA said:


> For me, the white paw thing wouldn't be a dealbreaker, however, the no health testing as in hips/elbows would be
> 
> As others have said, the most important things I look for are health and temperament. While certainly xraying parents aren't a guarantee you won't end up with a problem, it does show me the breeder is being responsible by seeing just what the status is of the breeding pair.
> 
> I don't know if it's been answered, but has the breeder told you how old the parents of the litter are?
> 
> Honestly, if the parents were not xrayed, I would walk away that's just me.


When I asked about hip and elbow x-rays she deemed them unnecessary because even with clear x-rays the dogs may still develop HD and/or ED.


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## selzer

JunebabyRN said:


> What does OP mean?


The OP, is the Original Post or the Original Poster -- the person who started the thread, in this case, you I think. 

As for your next post about how she deems x-rays unnecessary as even dogs out of dogs with good hips can get HD or ED, well that is a cop-out. It is true, but good breeding is about minimizing the likelihood of genetic problems, and that means not breeding afflicted dogs, and knowing what is behind the dogs you are breeding, knowing what they do produce.


----------



## Woof_Terrorist

JunebabyRN said:


> What does OP mean?



Oatmeal patties : It comes from the ancient Roman culture that in the senate, when ever a person started a discussion or debate, he was acknowledged with an oatmeal patty cake / biscuit. In modern language it refers to the person who starts a discussion, so in this this thread, it is you.


----------



## Andaka

JakodaCD OA said:


> For me, the white paw thing wouldn't be a dealbreaker, however, the no health testing as in hips/elbows would be
> 
> As others have said, the most important things I look for are health and temperament. While certainly xraying parents aren't a guarantee you won't end up with a problem, it does show me the breeder is being responsible by seeing just what the status is of the breeding pair.
> 
> I don't know if it's been answered, but has the breeder told you how old the parents of the litter are?
> 
> Honestly, if the parents were not xrayed, I would walk away that's just me.


I have American Show Lines, and I wouldn't take a puppy out of non-OVC or OFA parents.


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## JunebabyRN

Woof_Terrorist said:


> Oatmeal patties : It comes from the ancient Roman culture that in the senate, when ever a person started a discussion or debate, he was acknowledged with an oatmeal patty cake / biscuit. In modern language it refers to the person who starts a discussion, so in this this thread, it is you.


Thanks


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## JunebabyRN

Andaka said:


> I have American Show Lines, and I wouldn't take a puppy out of non-OVC or OFA parents.



non-ovc? Finding a puppy requires learning a new language.  and does OFA certification apply in Canada?

thanks
J


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## wolfy dog

I also walked away from a breeder (different breed) who thought "I was over thinking it" She got mad at me and told me to never contact her again. It meant that she didn't care but just wanted to sell the pups.
The white feet don't seem to be as much of a concern as her responses to you. Did your breeder ask you questions about you to make sure her puppy would get a safe home? If not, walk away.
I would try to meet and spend time with both of the parents. If you like what you see, then go for it. Even then it is a lot of money
Or, consider it a $500.00 lesson that might have prevented a lot of heartache.
If you are worried about the risks of getting a puppy, consider a rescue and / or an adult dog; then it is safer regarding "what you see is what you get". They often have very nice dogs, especially dogs from working lines that turned out too much to handle for their previous owners. Or get a retired breeding dog from a nice breeder.
It sounds that you are still in doubt. "Doubt" means "No" to me personally.
At the end you still have to make your own decision. All of us here speak from our own experiences and ideas.
It took me about 20 years before I finally found my Wolfy Dog through emotionally hard and expensive lessons and lots of searching and meeting dogs.
You can also be lucky but that is a chance you take with this breeder in my opinion.
Keep us posted.


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## Woof_Terrorist

JunebabyRN said:


> Thanks


YW. BTW I made that up. ROFL


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## JunebabyRN

Woof_Terrorist said:


> YW. BTW I made that up. ROFL


 I suspected so but didn't want to challenge your trivia..... however i get that OP= original poster


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## JunebabyRN

wolfy dog said:


> I also walked away from a breeder (different breed) who thought "I was over thinking it" She got mad at me and told me to never contact her again. It meant that she didn't care but just wanted to sell the pups.
> The white feet don't seem to be as much of a concern as her responses to you. Did your breeder ask you questions about you to make sure her puppy would get a safe home? If not, walk away.
> I would try to meet and spend time with both of the parents. If you like what you see, then go for it. Even then it is a lot of money
> Or, consider it a $500.00 lesson that might have prevented a lot of heartache.
> If you are worried about the risks of getting a puppy, consider a rescue and / or an adult dog; then it is safer regarding "what you see is what you get". They often have very nice dogs, especially dogs from working lines that turned out too much to handle for their previous owners. Or get a retired breeding dog from a nice breeder.
> It sounds that you are still in doubt. "Doubt" means "No" to me personally.
> At the end you still have to make your own decision. All of us here speak from our own experiences and ideas.
> It took me about 20 years before I finally found my Wolfy Dog through emotionally hard and expensive lessons and lots of searching and meeting dogs.
> You can also be lucky but that is a chance you take with this breeder in my opinion.
> Keep us posted.


I will post our decision for sure thank you.


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## Andaka

JunebabyRN said:


> non-ovc? Finding a puppy requires learning a new language.  and does OFA certification apply in Canada?
> 
> thanks
> J


OVC is the vet college in Canada that rates hips and elbows. But Canadian dogs can be OFA'd or the American dogs that are bred to are OFA.


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## JunebabyRN

Andaka said:


> OVC is the vet college in Canada that rates hips and elbows. But Canadian dogs can be OFA'd or the American dogs that are bred to are OFA.


Thank you


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## msvette2u

If it's going to be something that "bugs you" for the life of the dog, then wait and/or find another breeder. :thumbup:


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## JunebabyRN

msvette2u said:


> If it's going to be something that "bugs you" for the life of the dog, then wait and/or find another breeder. :thumbup:


Thank you.... my folks said the same, it's really a matter of personal preference. 

We will see this litter again in a couple of weeks and then make a decision.


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## msvette2u

JunebabyRN said:


> Thank you.... my folks said the same, it's really a matter of personal preference.
> 
> We will see this litter again in a couple of weeks and then make a decision.


Well, it might be vain/shallow, whatever, but you have to live with and look at the dog for the next 10-15yrs.

I see my Libby (my Princess, my 'cover girl' model dog) and her curly tail drives me nuts. 
She's a mutt! It doesn't matter one way or another - but she's Sheltie mix and she has a tail that, when she's happy/excited, curls right up over her back.
And many times the thought runs through my mind, "I wish her tail hung straight down!" 
And she's not even a dog I spent $1500 on, she was free (LOL) and she's now 10yrs. old!
It's vain and insane but that's how it is...


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## Jagenstadt

> Wow. Some of those tails _curl._ In fact ALL of Michaela x Victor's puppies have curly tails...wow.
> Looks like a husky jumped the fence (but I doubt that happened...right??)


Sorry to say msvette2u, you show the extent of your knowledge, or lack of when you make staements like this.

You are looking at puppy pictures, MOST of the puppies from my Michaela and Victor litter do not have curly tails, some pups/dogs will hold their tails high when they are playing or excited but then relax them in stance. 
White toes, white spots on chests, curly tails, light eyes, long coats etc. are all recessive genes and are present in ALL West German bloodlines.
Puppies are not manufactured in a machine shop like a nut and bolt, genetics, mother nature and luck of the draw all play a part. MOST breeders are THRILLED to get a TOP show quality puppy/dog from a litter of 6-8 pups, that's reality, all the rest to different extents are real nice pets but not TOP representatives of the breed for future showing/titling or breeding.

Onja does not have a white toe, a white spot on her chest or a curly tail.
Onja is SchH1, Kkl1 and "a" stamped hips and elbows just as her Sire and Dam are. 
Onja is a better anatomical dog then her mother Michaela, so I veiw this breeding as a success, I improved on the blood line......and I'm happy to say NO Huskys were involved in this breeding! 

Onja's Dam Michaela has benn shown 1x in the Danish Sieger Show and 2x's in the German Sieger Show. She has 2 small white spots on her toes and her tail is slightly curved. These minor faults did not prevent her from being graded Kkl1 for breeding and placing very respectably at a WORLD level. She has also produced several exceptional litters for me. I have had a few white toes of different sizes in each of her litters but it is not a reason to not breed a female or to not buy a puppy from a female like this.

Here is a picture of Onja von Jagenstadt, she is a littermate to Nikki.
(picture taken today, 2 years and 9 months old).


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## msvette2u

> MOST of the puppies from my Michaela and Victor litter do not have curly tails, some pups/dogs will hold their tails high when they are playing or excited but then relax them in stance.


I understand that - but yes, they _did _all have their tails up, the ones whose tails I could see. 
They were not "excited or playing" because they were standing still to have photos taken. I doubt that's exciting, and they don't appear to be being played with. 

I'm glad all their tails relaxed - and I understand they are puppies with growing to do.
But I've also seen plenty of adult GSDs with "gay tail" so it's not exactly unheard of, either


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## Jagenstadt

Once again you show the extent of, or lack of your knowledge.

Have you ever tried to stack a 6,7,8 week old puppy?
I doubt it!
If you think that your going to get those little ones to stay still with out distracting and interacting with them then go ahead and show me how it's done.
Just picking up a puppy means play time to them and they become stimiulated and excited.

And as far as your "Husky Comment" goes, that was totally rude and uncalled for.


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## selzer

I know, off topic, but Onja is gorgeous.


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## msvette2u

Well I am sorry for pointing it out...not to state the obvious but the puppy photos where their tails are all curled, (6 of the 7 anyway) they are simply moving about and not "stacked".
And yes, they did turn out very nice, curly tail (as a puppy) or not.


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## Jagenstadt

> And yes, they did turn out very nice, curly tail (as a puppy) or not.


Yea thanks.....must be from the Husky that jumped the fence!


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## Jagenstadt

> I know, off topic, but Onja is gorgeous.


Thank you.


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## Jagenstadt

**Post is argumentative and does nothing to further the discussion**


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## msvette2u

** comment removed by Admin. Argumentative and off topic**


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## Jagenstadt

** Post removed by Admin, same reasons as previously stated**


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## JakodaCD OA

In the end, color /looks are the last thing on my list but I do want to see at the minimum health testing, (xrays), of course it's not a guarantee that one will end up with a completely health dog no one can guarantee health. Xrays just tell me that the breeder is being responsible and cares about the status of their breeding pair.

I always say I'd rather have an ugly healthy/smart dog vs a beautiful dog that was dumber than a box of rocks and unhealthy

And JAG,,gorgeous dogs, adorable puppies) That "husky" did good)))))


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## robinhuerta

I can contribute a little here.....
MOST puppies at 5,6,7 & 8 wks old....will carry their tail high in the air like little "flags". Some will slightly curl, and some will not.......it is normal.
My puppies do this, my friends puppies (WL) do this....most GSD puppies do this.
When completely relaxed...they lay straight and proper....when even "slightly" aroused, *for whatever reason*....they will go up.
As puppies grow....this happens less and less....but it does still happen, even with adults...just watch your adult dogs. Excited, they raise their tails, either with a small bend...or not.
The amount of actual "curve" in a tail, is seen as a puppy grows....if there is to be any.

.....just a tad of info....nothing more.
p.s...cute puppies Andrew!...I have had white toes in a couple of my litters also....watcha gonna do?! LOL


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## lhczth

*Anymore argumentative or petty posts will be deleted and result in warnings. They do nothing to further the discussion. *

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## achampagne

Google gsd tail position and look at aringsburgkennel.blogspot.com, found it to be interesting. This may not apply to puppies.


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## selzer

I have to agree about pups' tails being high. When I put Jabba in with the litter a couple of weeks older than him, his little tail was held way high, and I thought wow, is he really confident/dominant, or does he have a happy tail? But in another couple of weeks his tail did not look out of the ordinary. Just a puppy thing I guess. The reason I noticed it was because he was almost three weeks younger than the litter -- their tails weren't acting that way.


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## msvette2u

selzer said:


> I have to agree about pups' tails being high. When I put Jabba in with the litter a couple of weeks older than him, his little tail was held way high, and I thought wow, is he really confident/dominant, or does he have a happy tail? But in another couple of weeks his tail did not look out of the ordinary. Just a puppy thing I guess. The reason I noticed it was because he was almost three weeks younger than the litter -- their tails weren't acting that way.


This is just a guess - perhaps the tail, as it grows, gets heavier, naturally, and the heaviness weighs it down, taking the curl out.

I've learned, owning Dachshunds, that their earset is better when their ears are a certain size, not bigger (too long/droopy) and not smaller (they end up with a "rose ear", basically it's folded where it ought to bend and fall forward).


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## Andaka

GSD puppies at an early age don't really have a croup. As the croup starts to slope off, the tail set is lower as well.


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## Jagenstadt

> GSD puppies at an early age don't really have a croup. As the croup starts to slope off, the tail set is lower as well.


I have found that looking at the anatomy of a wet puppy at the age of 5-6 weeks of age is a very good indication of what you will see anatomically later in the puppies life. Height of wither, length of upper arm, lay of shoulder, length and position of croup can all be seen with pretty goood clarity at a very young age. Firmness of ears, pasterns and hocks are more difficult to asses because they all depend on the growth of a puppy and how well they "firm up" as they mature. 
A dogs tail is one of the best "body language" indicators that we have, a high held tail, a low tucked tail, a tail shifted to the right, a tail shifted to the left, the speed in which a dog wags it's tail can show us how a dog is feeling. Some dogs do have high held, curled "gay tails" and this never changes but looking at the way a dog holds or carries it's tail is often just a temperary peek into how the dog is feeling at that moment. White toes and chests will often fade over time depending on how large the spots are, I've also seen white spots that were very small actually expand and get bigger over time, there's no "for sure" way of knowing, we can only hurry up and wait to see what we will see. The bottom line is that these are all cosmetic issues, they in no way are a reflection of the health or temperament of a puppy/dog. Many folks looking to purchase a puppy want a puppy that will closely resemble the sire and dam but what many folks do not understand is that the average litter may only produce one or two pups that come remotely close to having the TOP anatomical qualities of the sire and dam. The rest of the puppies will have some minor to major faults that may exclude them from being considered show/breed quality. When people are spending $1,500.00 or more for a puppy they expect that they will be little clones of their parents, unfortunately this is just not true. Most puppy buyers will say that they just want a healthy puppy with a good temperament as a family companion but expect that the pet/companion puppy they are buying will be of show/breeding qulity as it pertains to anatomy, movement, pigment and color......it's just not happening regardless of what any breeder may tell you. The average litter does not have that many top puppies in it and the one or that show good promise are often held on to by the breeder or placed on a co-own by the breeder with folks that have a proven record of showing and titling.
The breeders that do not hold on to the top puppy(s) from their litters are not real breeders, they are simply banging out puppies to make a buck and often advertise the "Pick" male or female puppy for sale at a higher price. Most of these breeders will only buy a puppy from titled and breed surveyed parents but will then breed these puppies when they mature without titling and surveying them, a bit of a double standard wouldn't you say? My only input/advice is to try and get a healthy, happy and out-going puppy from quality breeding dogs that have been health tested. Love and have fun with your puppy/dog and look at those white toes or curly tails as just a part of your puppy/dogs individuality. If you have a "vision" of what you want your puppy to look like and anything less then that will be a disappointment to you then don't buy a puppy, buy an older dog that is already showing all of these qualities and expect to pay a lot more money for this dog.


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## Freestep

JunebabyRN said:


> When I asked about hip and elbow x-rays she deemed them unnecessary because even with clear x-rays the dogs may still develop HD and/or ED.


Sorry I'm late to the party, but this is shocking coming from a breeder who has supposedly been in it for 35 years and had so many Champion blah-blah-blah... she should know better, and to come right out and say this is pretty ballsy. 

I think the breeder is saying, in code, that HER dogs develop HD and ED even when x-rayed clear. Not a good sign at all. I would run away so fast I'd leave a trail of fire!

Personally, I'd steer clear of American show line dogs in general, unless the dogs have been titled in Obedience, Agility, herding, ...at least SOMETHING that shows the dogs have good temperament to do anything other than trot around in a circle looking pretty. There are some American showline breeders that do this.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> Sorry I'm late to the party, but this is shocking coming from a breeder who has supposedly been in it for 35 years and had so many Champion blah-blah-blah... she should know better, and to come right out and say this is pretty ballsy.
> 
> I think the breeder is saying, in code, that HER dogs develop HD and ED even when x-rayed clear. Not a good sign at all. I would run away so fast I'd leave a trail of fire!
> 
> Personally, I'd steer clear of American show line dogs in general, unless the dogs have been titled in Obedience, Agility, herding, ...at least SOMETHING that shows the dogs have good temperament to do anything other than trot around in a circle looking pretty. There are some American showline breeders that do this.


Have you ever trained a dog for the conformation ring? 

I have. And I have trained a dog for the obedience ring. And I have trained dogs in Agility. And I have done some herding. The conformation ring was the most difficult in my opinion and probably because I didn't know what I was doing and had to learn it all. I suppose you can get a spooky dog through it, but you can get a spook through most other venues as well. I would not be concerned buying a pup out of dog and bitch who were champions, if I was looking for an ASL dog. 

I think the problem is when people say "Champion Lines" in the ad and that means one of sixteen great, great grand sires is a champion. Once the pups are out there and even the son or daughter of a champion can be bred to another son/daughter of a champion, or champion, and if that breeder/owner is not conscientious, the litter that is produced will likely be less quality and may suffer in many areas. When those pups are bred to someone's pet bitch, you can have issues. But that is in all the lines, working lines and German Show lines are not immune to shoddy breeding and failures in the area of temperament.


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## cliffson1

If the goal of my breeding only produced one or two top dogs, I have my dogs or breeding goals mixed up!


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## Jagenstadt

> If the goal of my breeding only produced one or two top dogs, I have my dogs or breeding goals mixed up!


Goals are one thing....reality is another.
I'm sure every reputable breeder would hope that every puppy in every litter would turn out to be best puppy/dog there is but lets look at it a little deeper.
If the avereage litter is 6 in size, how many puppies from that litter will turn out to have good hips and elbows, proper dentition, strong ears, excellent temperaments, excellent drives, strong character and working ability, TOP anatomy and TOP movement?
If you have one or two that check off all the above then you should be thrilled regardless of what your goals are, but then again, everyones goals may differ just as everyones standards and opinions of what actually constitutes a top representative of the breed really is.

Just out of curiosity, how many of the puppies in the litters you have bred check off ALL the boxes in regards to fullfiling the breed standard at the highest level?


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## cliffson1

I don't breed for top movement or top anatomy, I breed for functional working and utility dogs. But let's not derail this topic.....just a difference in goals....that's all.


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## GSD07

If I get this "excellent temperaments, excellent drives, strong character and working ability" then I would take a GSD with a polka dot coat. I admit, I like nice earsets, though  But again, I am just a pet owner.


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## Mustafa Tariq

I have a pup 4 weeks old with white toes. I have a question for you guys that these spot will be remove after some time or still shown when he will become an adult.


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## lhczth

Depends on the amount of white. Most goes away, usually by 8 weeks.


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