# ISO west german, long coat, black/mahogany breeder?



## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

I am new to the GSD arena, search, info, class, etc... 
So, please bare with me.

I fell in love with a long coat black/red-mahogany GSD, that was told to me, is from champion west german lines. Which?

The person was a breeder, but did not expect any pups for a year (about a year ago), but we forgot to take his card.

Anyone have any really good recommendations? 

This is a pic of what I like. Ripped from an online image.
A GSD <90lbs male.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Where are you located?

People can recommend reputable breeders in your area.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

South East USA (FL)

I considered Mittelwest up by you, but...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi there. The term you are looking for is Black and Red. The dark red/mahagony is the tan with very deep rich hue. You can find a dog like the one in your pic from a breeder of West German Showlines. Long coats are quite common in those lines, and the color is almost always Black and Red. 

If you post your location, people may be able to give some recomendations for your area. In the meantime, you can look over some of these links to help you find a good breeder that is trustworthy:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nk-how-tell-good-breeder-website-bad-one.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Von Lotta in GA. West German show lines, may have long coats (most WGSL breeders have long coats unless they are breeding to avoid it, they aren't rare).


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Hi there. The term you are looking for is Black and Red. The dark red/mahagony is the tan with very deep rich hue. You can find a dog like the one in your pic from a breeder of West German Showlines. Long coats are quite common in those lines, and the color is almost always Black and Red.
> 
> If you post your location, people may be able to give some recomendations for your area. In the meantime, you can look over some of these links to help you find a good breeder that is trustworthy:
> 
> ...



Thank you, for the info!!!

Florida is my location. The picture of the dog I posted was one I almost bougth in Homestead, FL (ebay class), but he could not furnish vaccination records, and the dogs back was way to thick in hair, looked like a wide sheep. Is that to be expected in all long coats?



Liesje said:


> Von Lotta in GA. West German show lines, may have long coats (most WGSL breeders have long coats unless they are breeding to avoid it, they aren't rare).


 Will look into them! :thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chimeric said:


> South East USA (FL)
> 
> I considered Mittelwest up by you, but...


My co worker has 3 dogs from Mittelwest and her daughter has one as well, all of them are gorgeous and great dogs but they breed way too many litters for me to consider them as a breeder I would get a puppy from.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

LaRen616 said:


> they breed way too many litters for me to consider them as a breeder I would get a puppy from.


Exactly what puts me at unease. And, when I see a cute pup, I make an offer, they accept, I ask for contract, then get "we just received a deposit on the pup with a higher offer, sorry." :banghead:

Also, I would like breeders that give FULL AKC, not limited.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Why full akc?


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> Why full akc?


I like options, especially in the future, as my dog ages and would like to mate him for another pup like him, but not get walled due to the limited nonsense, imo.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most breeders that sell on limited will change it to full once the dog has the necessary health certs and titles to be bred.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Do you plan on getting health testings done?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liesje said:


> Most breeders that sell on limited will change it to full once the dog has the necessary health certs and titles to be bred.


^^^^^^^


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Von Den Oher tannen - German Shepherd Breeder

Have seen two of their dogs trickle down to schhh club but like most owners -aren't fully committed and fizzle out. Might want to check into them


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> Most breeders that sell on limited will change it to full once the dog has the necessary health certs and titles to be bred.


Makes sense, but not really. But, I am a noob. Lotsa ways to look at it as right and wrong, each can be argued. 

Like, sell a pup that doesn't pass these criterias at age, and it is ok for you to have full AKC, continue to pass on the not so ideal DNA, and it shouldn't be tracked back to your line and help others from buying these, not so ideal lines? But, I digress. 

Want: High pedigree (champion V-VA1) WGSL Black/Red Long Coat pup with full AKC papers.

Would like one with from very good parents with high ratings.
DM DNA cleared, HD/ED excellent, SCHH3 (best?) IPO3, KKL?, BH?, etc.. :help:

I use some of the above ratings in ignorance, Truly don't know the difference of SCH3 vs SCHH3 for example. Head BH is good to be labeled, for temperment. I have a lot of research to do, but was hoping I could find someone to say, "Here ya go, WGSL R/B LC of your dreams right here." :wub:


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Mrs.P said:


> Von Den Oher tannen - German Shepherd Breeder
> 
> Have seen two of their dogs trickle down to schhh club but like most owners -aren't fully committed and fizzle out. Might want to check into them


They seem good, been on their site before, heard Oher is a good line, and Ballack, Bad-Boll, Kuckuckland, etc...

Nice dog. But, I see they are breeding IPO1's, isn't that a no no? Remember, major newb here, and just asking.

http://ohertannen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/V-Quito-von-Arlett-280x200.jpg

Oh, I have talked to Nadia, nice lady, very helpful.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Nice dog. But, I see they are breeding IPO1's, isn't that a no no? Remember, major newb here, and just asking.
> 
> http://ohertannen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/V-Quito-von-Arlett-280x200.jpg


 
Depends who you ask. As you are, continue to the put the time in -research and gather as much information as possible. Then form your own opinion on ethical breeding. Pinpoint exactly what type of breeder you are comfortable with supporting.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you are on the right track of what you want. Looking for titled, health tested parents is a good start. You understand that breeders who care and have high standards will prove their breeding dogs through training, titling and healt testing. 

If you want to be open to possible breeding your dog in the future, you shoud set the same standards for yourself and you future breeding dog. You may find a good breeder with what you are looking for that sells on full AKC registration, but don't discount a breeder you like that meets your other criteria that sells on limited. Many breeders will gladly lift the limited registration and change it to full once your dog has proven itself with titles and OFA pass, so limited may not be an issue. 

Though if you want to show your dog in conformation venues and get a show/breeding survey done prior to breeding, I do believe you will need full registration, so that is something to discuss with the breeder. Some breeders who sell on limited will make exeptions and sell on full registration for a good reason, like a buyer interested in conformation titles, or when selling out-of-country and full is required for the new owner to register their dog with their country's Kennel Club.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> I think you are on the right track of what you want. Looking for titled, health tested parents is a good start. You understand that breeders who care and have high standards will prove their breeding dogs through training, titling and healt testing.
> 
> *If you want to be open to possible breeding your dog in the future, you shoud set the same standards for yourself and your future breeding dog.* You may find a good breeder with what you are looking for that sells on full AKC registration, but don't discount a breeder you like that meets your other criteria that sells on limited. Many breeders will gladly lift the limited registration and change it to full once your dog has proven itself with titles and OFA pass, so limited may not be an issue.
> 
> Though if you want to show your dog in conformation venues and get a show/breeding survey done prior to breeding, I do believe you will need full registration, so that is something to discuss with the breeder. Some breeders who sell on limited will make exeptions and sell on full registration for a good reason, like a buyer interested in conformation titles, or when selling out-of-country and full is required for the new owner to register their dog with their country's Kennel Club.


 If I were to EVER sell GSD's, it would not be for a career, and no doubt, I would ensure as high as possible standards in my litter(s).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> My co worker has 3 dogs from Mittelwest and her daughter has one as well, all of them are gorgeous and great dogs but they breed way too many litters for me to consider them as a breeder I would get a puppy from.


Why? Because it's not less than 3 litters a year? Interesting...

I think breeding dogs with health tests and working titles is way more important than the amount of puppies produced. And yes, mittelwest will only breed a SchH1 titled bitch.

You should do some research and figure out how it is Mittelwest is able to have all those litters. If you figure out how a kennel name works, and why all those litters are registered under that name you'll see that it's really not what you think just based on your extensive research of website scanning.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Why? Because it's not less than 3 litters a year? Interesting...
> 
> I think breeding dogs with health tests and working titles is way more important than the amount of puppies produced. *And yes, mittelwest will only breed a SchH1 titled bitch.
> *
> You should do some research and figure out how it is Mittelwest is able to have all those litters. If you figure out how a kennel name works, and why all those litters are registered under that name you'll see that it's really not what you think just based on your extensive research of website scanning.


Why? Can you elaborate for a noob on that? 

AKC German Shepherd Puppies for sale

Favor? Look at that link, tell me which match/couple would you think will yield the highest quality litter?

Maybe I can deposit this time, before Julie can change her mind and sell to the next sudden higher bidder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you planning to do IPO with your dog? If not, then IPO1 vs IPO3 isn't really going to matter. The dogs need an IPO title to get a breed survey. A lot of the training with showline dogs is rushed (just to get the titles so they can breed). If this venue of sport is really important to you, I would suggest watching the dogs work and train before deciding; don't decide just based on the title. Many dogs with an IPO3 are only better "on paper" than dogs with an IPO1 (or dare I say, no title). Earning the title only means that you passed, one time, and doesn't speak to the quality of the training, the actual scores, who was judging, etc.

As for Mittelwest, I like some of the dogs and I don't like others. But, I have seen some that I liked. I appreciate that Julie has bred many generations of her own dogs. Occasionally you will see other lines/kennels come in but look at the pedigrees and see 3, 4, 5, 6 generations of Mittelwest dogs. I also see her team and these dogs at pretty much every event in their area and the national events. I'm not saying to get one, but I can't arbitrarily condemn a breeding program based on the number of litters. They breed showline dogs and they get top show results! Also MW is more like a team, lots of people owning and showing the dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> Can you elaborate for a noob on that?
> 
> AKC German Shepherd Puppies for sale
> 
> ...


They are not my type of dog. I can tell you this though, that she will match you with a dog that will suit your goals and family. There isn't a "bidding" process and if you put down a deposit, you'll get a dog fairly quickly (due to how many litters they do have).

Most of the females are bred/raised/shown/trained by other people. People that have purchased from her in the past, and are now raising the dogs. So most of them don't live in a kennel, they live in someone's home, and are raised like family pets. They are then bred after receiving the proper health and working title clearances, with recommendations from Julie, and the puppies are sold with the Mittelwest name on them.

If you want a dog that will excel at shows, she'll place one with you that will do that. If you want a Schutzhund prospect, she'll place a higher drive dog with you. You just have to be very truthful with her and tell her exactly what you want.

I also have very little doubt that her dogs will do great at this weekends Sieger Show.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I would support a breeder who has standards that are met before the dogs are bred, before supporting one who does nothing.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

chimeric said:


> Exactly what puts me at unease. And, when I see a cute pup, I make an offer, they accept, I ask for contract, then get "we just received a deposit on the pup with a higher offer, sorry." :banghead:
> 
> Also, I would like breeders that give FULL AKC, not limited.



Breeders don't sell puppies to the highest bidder...they ask for a purchasing price and those who can meet it are considered. It's not a puppy auction.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> Breeders don't sell puppies to the highest bidder...they ask for a purchasing price and those who can meet it are considered. It's not a puppy auction.


I asked what was their best price, Julie said we can do $X00 off, I said I will take it, let me pay the deposit and send me the contract. 

Then I get, "oh, I am sorry, someone just offered me more and left a deposit, sorry." WTH is that?! BS!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> I asked what was their best price, Julie said we can do $X00 off, I said I will take it, let me pay the deposit and send me the contract.
> 
> Then I get, "oh, I am sorry, someone just offered me more and left a deposit, sorry." WTH is that?! BS!


It's not BS...when she has that many dogs, and you're haggling, she has all the right to sell to the person offering to pay full price.

Until there is a check cleared and a contract signed...she doesn't have to believe a word YOU say either. So for her to sit and wait for something for a week while she has a full offer already there, isn't right either.

Truthfully...I would highly consider not haggling if your goal is to breed/show at some point. Haggling is the sure fire way of not getting the best puppy out of a litter. You'll get a good dog, but not the best one.

You have to consider that you're new to this, and as someone that's been in it for a little bit of time, I'll tell you that "new" people say a lot and 90% of the time do not follow through with any of it. So...in her mind, and probably in most breeder's minds, you're more than likely not going to show the dog or train it in Schutzhund. Without a history of being involved in dog sport or shows, the breeder has no reason to believe that you're going to do the things you say. They do end up placing a lot of trust in you when they do agree to sell a pick puppy.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Breeders don't sell puppies to the highest bidder...they ask for a purchasing price and those who can meet it are considered. It's not a puppy auction.


Unfortunately, this does happen.. A little more than we'd like to think..

I also know some breeders that will totally take advantage of the newbies and charge them extremely outrages prices...


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> It's not BS...when she has that many dogs, and you're haggling, she has all the right to sell to the person offering to pay full price.
> 
> Until there is a check cleared and a contract signed...she doesn't have to believe a word YOU say either. So for her to sit and wait for something for a week while she has a full offer already there, isn't right either.
> 
> ...


_*** Removed by Admin *** _

I said credit card in hand, I will even pay in full. Thank GOD she was a greddy *** and lost a customer.

Enough of them, back on topic, because they were NOT the only breeder to this this, I have 5 of them I can name. It was all the same **** game, and the sad part? No one left a deposit, because I inquired about the pup with a diferent tele, from a diff state, and got it was available.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Breeder bashing isn't allowed on this forum. Did you offer the breeder something below her asking price?


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

G-burg said:


> Unfortunately, this does happen.. A little more than we'd like to think..
> 
> I also know some breeders that will totally take advantage of the newbies and charge them extremely outrages prices...


 
Exactly.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> Now you are pulling stuff out your arse. I said credit card in hand, I will even pay in full. Thank GOD she was a greddy *** and lost a customer.
> 
> Enough of them, back on topic, because they were NOT the only breeder to this this, I have 5 of them I can name. It was all the same **** game, and the sad part? No one left a deposit, because I inquired about the pup with a diferent tele, from a diff state, and got it was available.


Alright, have fun...I really don't care if you buy a dog from her or not. I personally wouldn't either. I really couldn't care less what your experiences are with breeders, the truth is, the way you're even talking on this forum tells me a lot about how your interactions with them are probably going.

You'll need to get over yourself at some point and realize you're not the only person out there with $4000 to spend on a dog. A breeder has the right to sell or not sell their puppies to who ever they want. On top of that, take a look at what I said about having a history in the sport, and there are plenty of people with a proven history that will pay that money as well. There are plenty of people that can offer me $10,000 for a puppy and I wouldn't sell it to them but would give it away for free to others.

If you were to call me for a dog, and one of the first questions you asked was "what's the lowest price you'll go?" I'd probably tell you pretty quickly that the puppies have been sold as well.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> Breeder bashing isn't allowed on this forum. Did you offer the breeder something below her asking price?


I asked "what is your best price?" SHE offered me the discount. 

I am not trying to bash them, just not allow people to bash me when I was 100% fair and honest.

Please, lets get back on topic. And forget THAT one breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> I asked what was their best price, Julie said we can do $X00 off, I said I will take it, let me pay the deposit and send me the contract.
> 
> Then I get, "oh, I am sorry, someone just offered me more and left a deposit, sorry." WTH is that?! BS!


I would find a breeder that sells their dogs for what they are worth. That includes not asking breeders for a "best price", or the breeder basically auctioning a dog. Unless you know the breeder and/or are a "proven" home (like someone who has cred showing and/or titling dogs), it will be a big red flag to a breeder to haggle with pricing. For a WGSL dog from titled, breed surveyed parents, expect to pay $2000-$3000. A longcoat may be less, as in some venues it is a "fault", but due to the fact that it doesn't have any health implications and they can be shown (other than AKC), the market probably supports them not being a severe discount in price like something else might be (missing one or both testicles, other congenital or hereditary health conditions that are known at 8 weeks).


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

chimeric said:


> I asked "what is your best price?" SHE offered me the discount.
> 
> I am not trying to bash them, just not allow people to bash me when I was 100% fair and honest.
> 
> Please, lets get back on topic. And forget THAT one breeder.


Wait it went from "I'll pay in full" to "what's your best price" (discount). Which one is it? I understand your frustration with the breeder. But, try to tell the entire story before bashing a breeder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> I asked "what is your best price?" SHE offered me the discount.
> 
> I am not trying to bash them, just not allow people to bash me when I was 100% fair and honest.
> 
> Please, lets get back on topic. And forget THAT one breeder.


No one is bashing YOU.

I'm trying to tell you why that occurred and explain to you how you can change your future experiences for the next time you call a breeder.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> A breeder has the right to sell or not sell their puppies to who ever they want.


Yes, but for someone to agree on a price, then say sorry I just got more money ofered, and lie about it, is right and good business? :screwy:


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Expect to pay higher money for a quality pup. What is your budget?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To most breeders, this is not a business. I can't speak for Julie, but I think the volume of her kennel operation is pretty large and not the norm. Most breeders are "hobby" breeders meaning they have full time jobs and spend all their other waking time and their own money on their dogs and their breeding program. When price is the first thing brought up, it can be frustrating for a breeder. If you have a certain budget in mind, do share and we can try to recommend breeders within that budget.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> Yes, but for someone to agree on a price, then say sorry I just got more money ofered, and lie about it, is right and good business? :screwy:


Not screwy at all...you just don't like it because you were negatively affected by it. Change your attitude and you won't run into the same issue again.

More than likely, the situation for the dog ended up being better than what you were offering, especially with the question you asked. I wouldn't go into that with you over the phone as well, I'd probably say something like that as well to get rid of you as quickly as possible.

I also don't get how within 3 seconds since the "credit card was in hand"...she could've gotten a better offer. Was she on the phone with other people at the same time? If this all occurred over a single phone call, she couldn't have gotten a "better offer."


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> explain to you how you can change your future experiences for the next time you call a breeder.


 How? Pay their asking price? Then get, sorry, I just a higher offer and get left hanging again?

Tell me how to prevent this, because it is obviously common, since they know they are talking to someone naive and ignorant in this arena and taking advantage of it. So frustrating. Especially when you kids were promised a dog to be delivered on a Saturday, and Friday your told sorry, not selling, my daughter decided to keep the dog, but the pup is on another site for sale, in a different state. Come on man.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's about more than money and getting a next day puppy. You might find a breeder only breeds 1-2 litters a year, and they might already be reserved. Ask about how the puppies might fit your family or lifestyle rather than asking first about price or how quickly they can be delivered.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> How? Pay their asking price? Then get, sorry, I just a higher offer and get left hanging again?
> 
> Tell me how to prevent this, because it is obviously common, since they know they are talking to someone naive and ignorant in this arena and taking advantage of it. So frustrating. Especially when you kids were promised a dog to be delivered on a Saturday, and Friday your told sorry, not selling, my daughter decided to keep the dog, but the pup is on another site for sale, in a different state. Come on man.


Websites aren't limited to states...so explain to me how the dog is for sale in one state and not another one?

You can stop trying to convince me of your story. I really don't care. I'm telling you that the way you're coming off even through this forum, I wouldn't sell you a dog either.

It's obviously NOT common. Just because ONE other poster told you that it happens, doesn't mean that it's common, so get over that part of it.

The reason it happened to you was that you offered to pay LESS than asking price. I can guarantee the other person (if there is one) had no problem paying asking price. So she sold it to them.

Trust me, if you call a breeder, agree to pay full price, get your deposit and your contract in. You'll have a dog. No one is going to outbid you.

And yes...if you need your puppy tomorrow, most breeders aren't going to take you seriously either.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Websites aren't limited to states...so explain to me how the dog is for sale in one state and not another one?
> 
> You can stop trying to convince me of your story. I really don't care. I'm telling you that the way you're coming off even through this forum, I wouldn't sell you a dog either.
> 
> ...


^^^^ couldn't say it better.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

chimeric said:


> I asked "what is your best price?" SHE offered me the discount.
> 
> I am not trying to bash them, just not allow people to bash me when I was 100% fair and honest.
> 
> Please, lets get back on topic. And forget THAT one breeder.


You are doing a great job doing your homework up front. Please don't get discouraged because a few folks push buttons. 

There are some folks on here that are actually 'experts'. Stick around, you'll see who has been in the business for years and can provide excellent advice, and those who have raised/shown/worked a dog or two in the past couple of years and consider themselves self appointed experts.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> You are doing a great job doing your homework up front. Please don't get discouraged because a few folks push buttons.
> 
> There are some folks on here that are actually 'experts'. Stick around, you'll see who has been in the business for years and can provide excellent advice, and those who have raised/shown/worked a dog or two in the past couple of years and consider themselves self appointed experts.


:thumbup:


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lilie said:


> You are doing a great job doing your homework up front. Please don't get discouraged because a few folks push buttons.
> 
> There are some folks on here that are actually 'experts'. Stick around, you'll see who has been in the business for years and can provide excellent advice, and those who have raised/shown/worked a dog or two in the past couple of years and consider themselves self appointed experts.


"Homework up front" is not the same as calling a breeder and asking for the best price for a pup that can be delivered this weekend. 

Sorry if having that type of common sense doesn't make me an expert in some people's eyes. Clearly I'm just not old enough and haven't made enough money in the "business" yet.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Websites aren't limited to states...so explain to me how the dog is for sale in one state and not another one?
> 
> You can stop trying to convince me of your story. I really don't care. I'm telling you that the way you're coming off even through this forum, I wouldn't sell you a dog either.
> 
> ...


 
You are misunderstanding.

Breeder 1 says I will sell you my dog for $XXXX dollars shipped, I agreed. Time to come to pay (they delayed giving me their paypal address) and ship the dog. Guess what? They back out. She even posted on their FB that their dog was not for sale, because they are keeping the dog for their daughter. Who was allergic to it and needed the pup gone few days prior. Whatever, it is fine, kids are devasted, we move on...

Few days later, I happened to stumble on the same dog for sale on breeders 2's website for sale. I looked on breeder's 1 FB, and it was for sale again on there as well. 

Irony? Breeder 2 tried to sell me the very same puppy for 800$ (they are "friends") more than what the actually breeder offered and agreed on email. 

But, I am a bad buyer, the wrong one. Yes I am picky, and upset people for wanting something they don't have or feel I think it is inferior to what I want, which is what I am sensing is happening here.

SO, please, if you can't help me find an honest breeder with the spec's I am stringently looking for, then don't post anything. Stop derailing this thread and pulling me back into it. I am not explaining myself anymore.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> "Homework up front" is not the same as calling a breeder and asking for the best price for a pup that can be delivered this weekend.
> 
> Sorry if having that type of common sense doesn't make me an expert in some people's eyes. Clearly I'm just not old enough and haven't made enough money in the "business" yet.


Dang! Touchy much? Didn't realize I was directing my comment to anyone in particular. There is over a thousand members on this forum.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> "Homework up front" is not the same as calling a breeder and asking for the best price for a pup that can be delivered this weekend.


If your wife says, OMG I love that dog, see if they can do better on the price, and get it to us ASAP, what is wrong with that? A good breeder should not have any problems helping out the best they can, and can say no to any discounts, instead of saying yes and then lying.

I am on a different planet or totally out of my mind, because I don't get why I was did wrong, and being beat down. 

Well, there went my thread. Thanks to those who have tried to help. I really just need to call it quits. All the stuff we went through, and now here, is like an omen from God to forget getting a dog. Funny how a beautiful (rescue) kitten ended up in our lives two days ago.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> SO, please, if you can't help me find an honest breeder with the spec's I am stringently looking for, then don't post anything. Stop derailing this thread and pulling me back into it. I am not explaining myself anymore.


What specs? We haven't been given much to go on...

How far are you willing to travel to meet a breeder and pickup a dog?

What is your price range?

You've explained color, but do you understand the difference in the breed's types and know what you want/don't want?

What you do plan to do with the dog? Training? Sports/work? Show?

Are you looking for a health warranty and/or some sort of contract? Or do you not care (about a contract)? Or prefer none?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

chimeric said:


> If your wife says, OMG I love that dog, see if they can do better on the price, and get it to us ASAP, what is wrong with that? A good breeder should not have any problems helping out the best they can, and can say no to any discounts, instead of saying yes and then lying.
> 
> I am on a different planet or totally out of my mind, because I don't get why I was did wrong, and being beat down.
> 
> Well, there went my thread. Thanks to those who have tried to help. I really just need to call it quits. All the stuff we went through, and now here, is like an omen from God to forget getting a dog. Funny how a beautiful (rescue) kitten ended up in our lives two days ago.


It's not wrong. You just don't seem to know any better.

When it comes to breeding, it's not just "sell it to the highest bidder or cut someone a deal because they really like that puppy." A whole lot more goes into it. I can't account for why they'd lead you to believe that they would adjust a price for you, but I can tell you its not the norm. Not only that, but there is probably more to the story than can even be discussed here, based on the rules of the forum.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> If your wife says, OMG I love that dog, see if they can do better on the price, and get it to us ASAP, what is wrong with that?


There is a lot wrong with this. I'm not trying to turn you away or make you feel bad. Lots of people have weird/bad/difficult experiences buying a purebred dog. You have to think of this in terms of a companion rather than something like a car or a new computer. These are German Shepherds, high energy, high drive, dogs bred for work. If you just buy the first one you like the look of at the best price, who knows what you will end up with. It sounds like you have kids and I'm assuming this is going to be a family dog (not a working dog and/or kennel dog) so you need to take a step back and spend some time deciding what it is you really want other than color and price.

Also the "see if they can do better on the price" I would HIGHLY discourage. You are not going to be treated well by the better breeders that actually have quality dogs to offer. As I said, the norm for a west German show line dog at 8 weeks with the titles you mentioned will be $2000-$3000 so expect that. When you have established a relationship with breeders and proven yourself a good home that is a match for their lines, then in the future they may likely offer you dogs at a discount or even free.

I'm just trying to help, as someone that has actually owned and bought WGSL dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The point is...change how you ask questions, what questions you ask, and when you ask them the next time you call the breeders you've been recommended...

Buyers, on average, wait months for a puppy. Most times, people put money down either before the puppies are born, or a few weeks into the puppy's lives. It is very rare to find a breeder with a puppy available tomorrow.

There is nothing wrong with what you did, but the breeder can also do whatever they want until they get the money and truthfully...until they hand over the puppy. They can even, at the end of the day, give you your money back and not sell you a puppy even if they agreed to sell you a puppy. Yup, that's right, they can refuse to sell to anyone at any point. Bad business practice? Absolutely. But if they have a reason for it, they don't believe that ruining that one relationship will hurt them more than their gaining from not selling the dog...who is anyone to say they're wrong?

If what you wanted to hear was...those breeders are crappy, we'd never buy from them, they're terrible people, blah blah blah, you can hear it from plenty of people. The idea is now to change your outlook on buying an EXCELLENT puppy and realizing that good, reputable breeders, will protect their puppies and they don't care that much about making a sale or being amazing business people. The majority of good breeders, have way more demand for their puppies than they do supply...so THEY pick who they sell to and not the other way around.

BTW...here's a first hand story...we're going to have a litter in about 15 days. We've been contacted by about a dozen people. Not a single one has asked about price. That's right, no one has even asked what the ASKING price is, or asked for a discount. The moment you open up with price, is the moment when you're going to be pushed to the back of the line.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> What specs? We haven't been given much to go on...
> 
> *Male long coat from parents (V-VA1) with cleared DM, HD/ED excellent, SCHH3, KKL1, IPO3, etc..*
> 
> ...


Answers in bold. Please disregard if I appear arrogant and blunt, it's just the way I am. Straight and cut right through the other stuff.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Your requirements are not that stringent...many breeders can get you a puppy like that.

You're in luck...this is the weekend of the 2015 USCA Sieger Show. Take note, see which dogs are successful, and figure out what kennels they come from or who is going to be breeding them. Contact those breeders and I'm sure you'll end up with a fantastic dog that is capable of everything you've listed.

You can even follow it online and watch...

http://uscasiegershow.info/

I'm sure that I'll end up seeing many of the people who live within a bird shot of the show there. I mean, no excuse not to go and watch if you're truly an "expert" or just love the breed.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> BTW...here's a first hand story...we're going to have a litter in about 15 days. We've been contacted by about a dozen people. Not a single one has asked about price. That's right, no one has even asked what the ASKING price is, or asked for a discount. The moment you open up with price, is the moment when you're going to be pushed to the back of the line.


 How would I know if I could afford it if I don't know anything about your pricing? aranoid:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you willing to have a puppy shipped? My WGSL male is from Alta-Tollhaus in MI (breeder ships). I keep track of all his siblings and distant relatives on her blog and most of the dogs LOVE water (mine does, as does his son, in fact they are competing in dock diving again next weekend). She breeds quite a bit, so assuming everything checks out, you might not have to wait as long. Many litters have long coats. Temperaments will vary based on the breeding (my dog was bred in Germany and I believe his sire is now in Denmark but would be over 10 years old, dam is deceased), but my dog has done fairly well at just about everything we've tried. He himself is SchH titled and breed surveyed, V rated, and has other show ratings and 25+ titles in other sports. He is also my house pet. In fact he's been coming to work with me every day (I work for a college, so he hangs out in my kennel van and I walk him around on my breaks when the weather is mild).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chimeric said:


> How would I know if I could afford it if I don't know anything about your pricing? aranoid:


Establish a relationship, ask other questions. Dogs working ability, what the dogs have done, health of the dogs, what it is that the breeder is trying to accomplish with the breeding, talk about your family, your situation, your goals, ect.

Basically...feel free to blow smoke up the breeders you know what. Make the breeder feel like you are truly interested in what they're doing, you're interested in the breed, and that your decision is going to be based off of more than just the dollar amount.

Breeders love talking about their dogs, their prior accomplishments, what they want to achieve in the future, ect.

Then, once you've made that relationship, feel free to ask about price, knowing that if both dogs are Schutzhund titled, you're likely looking at $1200+ for a working line, and like Liesje mentioned, $2000+ for a show line. Expect that price, don't let it surprise you. I'd question the quality of the dogs if the price was any lower than that.

Go into it with the mindset that YOU are being interviewed, not the other way around.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> *Are you willing to have a puppy shipped*? My WGSL male is from Alta-Tollhaus in MI (breeder ships). I keep track of all his siblings and distant relatives on her blog and most of the dogs LOVE water (mine does, as does his son, in fact they are competing in dock diving again next weekend). She breeds quite a bit, so assuming everything checks out, you might not have to wait as long. Many litters have long coats. Temperaments will vary based on the breeding (my dog was bred in Germany and I believe his sire is now in Denmark but would be over 10 years old, dam is deceased), but my dog has done fairly well at just about everything we've tried. He himself is SchH titled and breed surveyed, V rated, and has other show ratings and 25+ titles in other sports. He is also my house pet. In fact he's been coming to work with me every day (I work for a college, so he hangs out in my kennel van and I walk him around on my breaks when the weather is mild).


 Of course. The dog on the right on your avatar is really good looking.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Establish a relationship, ask other questions. Dogs working ability, what the dogs have done, health of the dogs, what it is that the breeder is trying to accomplish with the breeding, talk about your family, your situation, your goals, ect.
> 
> Basically...feel free to blow smoke up the breeders you know what. Make the breeder feel like you are truly interested in what they're doing, you're interested in the breed, and that your decision is going to be based off of more than just the dollar amount.
> 
> ...


 I guess that is where I fail. 
I just want to buy a good dog, not go on a date with the breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> Of course. The dog on the right on your avatar is really good looking.


That is my Alta-Tollhaus dog. The dog on the left is his son (maybe 16 months in that photo).
V U-CH Alta-Tollhaus Bono

Have you owned German Shepherds before? I'm just asking what a breeder is probably going to ask you. Why do you want this breed? Just looks, or....?


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> That is my Alta-Tollhaus dog. The dog on the left is his son (maybe 16 months in that photo).
> V U-CH Alta-Tollhaus Bono
> 
> Have you owned German Shepherds before? I'm just asking what a breeder is probably going to ask you. Why do you want this breed? Just looks, or....?


Yeah, had a show quality dog when I was a teen. So smart, so protective and so missed. I am 40 **** yrs old now. How did that frigg'n happen?! :headbang:

I live in a upper middle class area, my kids are my life, and several times now, I have heard someone try to test my front door handle, to see if it is locked, late at night (sometimes I just can't sleep, and stay up late) and want a dog to alarm us (cats suck, don't tell my girls), next/everytime that happens, so I can prepare to arm myself, God forbid, if need be. I am licensed since 1994.

WGSL is mainly for looks, but I am sure they can make great family members and good protectors. My wife fell in love with them as well, and even went to see a few. Even the one in post 1 in Homestead, FL. Beautiful dog, but he seemed to have some issues. Dog didn't seem quite up there, but he was friendly.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> That is my Alta-Tollhaus dog. The dog on the left is his son (maybe 16 months in that photo).
> V U-CH Alta-Tollhaus Bono
> 
> Have you owned German Shepherds before? I'm just asking what a breeder is probably going to ask you. Why do you want this breed? Just looks, or....?


 NICE looking dog!!!

Hold up, lol
WTH is this, OMG I should not be buying a dog. Looks alien writing.

SCHH1 T1 FO PA CL1-R UNJCH U-JJ U-CAX FDCH-S TFE-II HIT TT CGC

VU-CH?


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

martemchik said:


> There is nothing wrong with what you did, but the breeder can also do whatever they want until they get the money and truthfully...until they hand over the puppy. They can even, at the end of the day, give you your money back and not sell you a puppy even if they agreed to sell you a puppy. Yup, that's right, they can refuse to sell to anyone at any point. Bad business practice? Absolutely. But if they have a reason for it, they don't believe that ruining that one relationship will hurt them more than their gaining from not selling the dog...who is anyone to say they're wrong?


Actually, once you have agreed to terms and paid money, or signed a contract even, the buyer and the breeder are in a legal bind to follow through with the terms of the deal.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJMac said:


> Actually, once you have agreed to terms and paid money, or signed a contract even, the buyer and the breeder are in a legal bind to follow through with the terms of the deal.


Feel free to go to court over this and spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars in order to force the breeder to go through with the contract. Most courts will also allow you to be made "whole" and a return of money will do that. So good luck to you!


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Your requirements are not that stringent...many breeders can get you a puppy like that.
> 
> You're in luck...this is the weekend of the 2015 USCA Sieger Show. Take note, see which dogs are successful, and figure out what kennels they come from or who is going to be breeding them. Contact those breeders and I'm sure you'll end up with a fantastic dog that is capable of everything you've listed.
> 
> ...


Not to derail the thread but I'm thinking of heading out there this weekend. I'm only 45 minutes away. I can't find anything on the website about admission or tickets though. It can't be free??? Is it????


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's free, it's at a public park.

We'll be there Saturday!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

And BTW OP...the conversation you just had with Liesje, is exactly what a breeder would love to hear before any question about money is posed. It didn't take you that long, and it's not bad. If that's how you come off...there wouldn't be any reason not to sell you a puppy.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

martemchik said:


> It's free, it's at a public park.
> 
> We'll be there Saturday!


There no excuse not to go then


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Feel free to go to court over this and spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars in order to force the breeder to go through with the contract. Most courts will also allow you to be made "whole" and a return of money will do that. So good luck to you!


Don't need luck, rarely need courts. Besides if the courts are needed, I'll be sure to include court fees in my suit.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> And BTW OP...the conversation you just had with Liesje, is exactly what a breeder would love to hear before any question about money is posed. It didn't take you that long, and it's not bad. If that's how you come off...there wouldn't be any reason not to sell you a puppy.


I never gave anyone any reason to not to sell me a puppy, other than them changing buyers, due to more money, trust me. Hence, dealing with bad breeders. 

Breaking a contract, could be VERY costly, especially if you have to fly to another very distance state, pay court costs, my attornety fee's, etc. Your sureness is sort of scary, like you've got away doing it a lot. Not trying to be offensive. Just an common sense observation.

Good link!

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad oneRuffly Speaking | Ruffly Speaking

Everything listed on "Bad Breeder" matches one of USA's best breeder, wow!!!

Wish I could go up there to the show, but that is not possible in many ways.

I am never going to find my pup


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> NICE looking dog!!!
> 
> Hold up, lol
> WTH is this, OMG I should not be buying a dog. Looks alien writing.
> ...


Not trying to toot my own horn, I'll answer b/c you asked (and it's your thread). Those are all the dogs titles. Since you are looking at WGSL, you are probably used to seeing the minimum titles those dogs are required to have to pass a breed survey - a Schutzhund/IPO (same thing) title, a show rating (usually "V" for adults), and the breed survey itself (the KKL). The dogs also need hip and elbow certifications, a BH (long obedience and temperament test), and AD (12 mile endurance test) but those aren't listed as they are implied if the dog has a KKL (used to be KKL1 and KKL2 but is now just pass/fail for KKL). Besides my job, my dogs are my life and I do a ton of training and competing beyond the Schutzhund title. The U-CH is UKC Champion (conformation), T1 is a tracking title, FO is an obedience title (very similar to BH or SchH1 obedience but a different organizations), PA is a protection alert title (non-biting title but still hard b/c of the obedience and control), CL1 is an agility title (not a very good one! I regret we have not had the time or $$$ to compete more agility), UNJCH is a UKC dock diving championship title that you get after accumulating a certain amount of points dock diving, UJJ is an Ultimate Air Dogs dock diving title that you can earn if you jump 5 or more jumps in a given division in one season, U-CAX is a UKC lure coursing title you earn after you have done your U-CA (CA is 3 legs, CAX is an additional 12 legs), FDCH-S is his current NAFA flyball title/level, TFE-III is his current U-FLI title/level (he is in the top three GSDs in U-FLI, points wise), HIT is a herding instinct test after meeting with a herding instructor twice so they can test the dog on sheep, TT is a temperament test done by the American Temperament Test Society (I think the GSDCA has something similar), and the CGC is the AKC Canine Good Citizen. 

There are a gazillion things you can do with a dog: Schutzhund, AKC style obedience, agility (AKC, UKC, UKI, CPE, USDAA, NADAC....), flyball (UFL or NAFA), nosework (UKC, NACSW...), weight pull, lure coursing, barn hunt, conformation, different styles of protection (SDA, ringsport...). Sky's the limit.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A breeder who puts heart and soul into their program does not consider his puppies to be inventory to be discounted and haggled over.....

The last thing I discuss with a prospective buyer is the price....I want to know the person's experience, their goals, the environment in which they will keep the pup....their proposed training plans and then if there are no red flags, we can talk money....just asking me a price with no background or info is a real turnoff....

Of course, I am not a business oriented breeder who makes a living pushing pups out the door.....have not gone through the alphabet 3 - 5 times or even more....

Pups are not objects and most good, knowledgeable breeders want the pup and the new owner to be a successful match.....you have to invest in some knowledge before that commitment is made.

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> I am never going to find my pup


How long have you been looking? Many have looked and waited 1-2 years for their pups! If you must have it now, why not look into a rescue or shelter dog? You can basically window shop.

http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lol you don't have to worry about me, I'm on my first litter. So I haven't even signed a single contract yet.

I'm just telling you how it is. A breeder can decide to do whatever they want with their pups. I hope to never enter into a contract with anyone that I might have to refuse later on. I'll definitely do my hardest to make that decision way before pen gets to paper.

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

chimeric said:


> I asked what was their best price, Julie said we can do $X00 off, I said I will take it, let me pay the deposit and send me the contract.
> 
> Then I get, "oh, I am sorry, someone just offered me more and left a deposit, sorry." WTH is that?! BS!





G-burg said:


> Unfortunately, this does happen.. A little more than we'd like to think..
> 
> I also know some breeders that will totally take advantage of the newbies and charge them extremely outrages prices...


this is probably the norm with showline litters....though doubtful many would admit to it. SL breeders often have price brackets which is odd, but whatever. No one is forced to purchase a puppy from anyone. I prefer to support a breeder that is screening potential homes for the best fit for the individual puppy and that is usually done around the 7-8 week age of the litter. Even then the breeder may want to hold back a pup or more to make better decisions on which pup goes where.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> BTW...here's a first hand story...we're going to have a litter in about 15 days. We've been contacted by about a dozen people. Not a single one has asked about price. That's right, no one has even asked what the ASKING price is, or asked for a discount. The moment you open up with price, is the moment when you're going to be pushed to the back of the line.


what is wrong with someone inquiring about the price of the litter....pricepoints are all over the place lately and if someone asks price, the breeder should be transparent way before the person should even have to ask price. l was interested in a breeding which didn't have a price listed, how else can l find the cost of the pup without asking? l know a breeder that will interview the potential home and then give the price according to the information gathered, if someone will pay more that breeder will quote a high price compared to what the breeder would normally sell. Once again, transparency is revered for me to respect a breeding program.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Noting wrong with asking, but I think there's something wrong with asking "what's the best price you can give me"


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Wow this is getting into personal stuff! locked for now, will be cleaned up and re-opened.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Open for business again! Thread heavily edited, nasties deleted, warnings sent. Back to the topic at hand, in a respectful NON passive-aggressive and accusatory manner. 

Thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GatorDog said:


> Noting wrong with asking, but I think there's something wrong with asking "what's the best price you can give me"


yes, that would be a reason to not sell to someone...but breeders get enough inquiries so prices listed per litter on their sites or page, or ad will hopefully help in not having to answer the question over and over and over. 
When l see a fb page listing a litter, no price, but 'pm me for price (and/or pedigree)', it makes me wonder why they are not upfront publicly in the first place.
Most of the breeders l know get so many inquiries, they are happy to list price up front to keep the email replies reduced.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I do not list prices. Has nothing to do with being sneaky or wanting to charge different prices. It is for legal reasons that have stuck in my head since I had horses.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I didn't list on mine either. And maybe I've just been lucky with inquiries so far, but its not the first, or even second question when people have been interested. Not trying to be sneaky at all. I have nothing to hide.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

l never said sneaky....but did say transparent. Not sure how/why the legalities would play into it.
If I were a breeder, I'd rather not email back and forth answers, instead have as much info available(to a point) to save time and weed out those looking for something I couldn't provide.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> *yes, that would be a reason to not sell to someone*...but breeders get enough inquiries so prices listed per litter on their sites or page, or ad will hopefully help in not having to answer the question over and over and over.
> *When l see a fb page listing a litter, no price, but 'pm me for price (and/or pedigree)', it makes me wonder why they are not upfront publicly in the first place.
> *Most of the breeders l know get so many inquiries, they are happy to list price up front to keep the email replies reduced.


I disagree. Breeders are probably the only ones who would agree. There is zero reason why negotiations shouldn't be permitted. ESPECIALLY (not shouting), if the price is obviously inflated signif above market. When the lady in out west said $1500 shipped, I did not negotiate, not a penny. Negotiations is sometimes uncool, I agree. But, sometimes needed to slap a breeder who thinks they can take advantage of others, because they didn't know enough about the pricing. 

I retract my 3-4K price. My price is 2-3K for a high quality pup, with the specs I am looking for. Fair or I am off my rocker?

DING DING DING!!! That is why I felt the door to "what is your best price" question was valid. Breeder posts email or call me for price, their website states none, and that gives a open door for negotiations. $500 off is better than none, on a pup priced $3500 short coat, $3000 long coat. Sad part??? I lost the $3000 offer on a long coat, because she decided to give me a $3500 (inflated) price, then a $500 discount, but selling to someone else, probably for a few bucks more. Just because she saw I was not versed and very anxious to buy. Bad Breeder.

Anyyyyywayyyy, can we find me a WGSL long coat that is deep black and red, something exceptional, from a solid/good breeder? 

I have only been looking for 3 months. I feel, people who look for 1,2+ years are breeders trying to find the next show champ, which I am not. Just a pretty dog for the family. Maybe good enough to mate with another dog in the future, to carry on a piece of his soul and looks.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I thought you where going to show him, breed, and do shutzhund?


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> I thought you where going to show him, breed, and do shutzhund?


LOL, I don't even know how. That is a potential future thing I may look into, which is dependant on the dog, if I feel it is exceptional. But, what I want is a pup that would likely rank well if I did. So I could find someone who would have equal or better ranked female to breed with, for the sake of having a son of my boy, and good papers for the rest of the litter that will be sold by me or the donor female owner.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Honestly, MOD, can you re-lock this thread?

9 pages later, and I have not come any closer to finding what I want than the last three months here. I feel like I am only being torn down, interrogated and insulted. 

My wife does that to me enough, lol. Thanks all.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Some members gave you some breeders.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are many short-cuts in life. If you take them, then you cannot blame anyone if you end up with what you do not want. 

The dog that is right for me, will not be the dog that is right for Jane or Lucia or Lies. So we are probably all going to go to different breeders for different reasons. So, how can we tell you who to go to? Especially when we do not even know you as an internet persona yet? 

First, you need to know what you want.

Then you need to have a standard to which you want the breeder of the pup you purchase to meet. 

Then you need to go out and find the dogs, pictures may paint a thousand words, but they tell you nothing of the most important aspects of dogs: temperament and health. So you have to go out and meet dogs. When you find a dog your really like, ask them where they got the dog.

Then you have to contact the breeder, be willing to ask pertinent questions, and preferably visit her and meet the dogs; be willing to pay the asking price for the dogs; be willing to wait for a litter to be born and raised. 

I can sit here and type out things that I think made the breeders you've spoken to balk. But then you will just amend what you tell the breeders. That isn't helpful really. 

Getting to know people, even on a site like this, and finding out what they like about their dogs, and if that is what you will like in a dog, is a possibility. It may not be possible to meet enough dogs to find what you are really looking for in person. If you just ask a bunch of people on the internet who is a good breeder, who breeds GSL long coated dogs, you should be prepared to get answers that will need to be weeded through very carefully.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chimeric said:


> Honestly, MOD, can you re-lock this thread?
> 
> 9 pages later, and I have not come any closer to finding what I want than the last three months here. I feel like I am only being torn down, interrogated and insulted.
> 
> My wife does that to me enough, lol. Thanks all.


I read through this whole thread and while I like the dogs from the one breeder you mentioned I wouldn't go that route. Lots of those dogs are listed as large boned and my first thought is breeding for larger size is emphasized. I've met a couple of them and they have all been huge, I can always tell where those particular dogs come from. Others have given at least one other breeder that I would look at and have talked to in the past. 

I have never thought not to ask about price. I think that is pretty important. Some breeders have older dogs that price might be negotiatable. I've also seen some have different pricing within a litter depending on what your looking for. Most of what I seen is a deposit once pregnancy is confirmed then rest of payment due when pup is ready to go home. This would be a decent route as long as the breeder stays in contact with you and updates on the pups. Ideally I would like to see updates or milestones about my future pup weekly. If a breeder doesn't have time to do that I then I would move on until I found one that is open to communication. 

The first couple conversations are really a interview which goes both ways. It lets the buyer get a feel on the breeder and vice versa. If I'm going to expect support for the life of my pup then I need to feel comfortable. 

I read somewhere that someone wrote they wouldn't sell a pup for $10000 to some but give them for free to others. I might pay some $10000 and others I wouldn't even bother with at all if they had an I don't care attitude. 

Good Luck on your search....


----------



## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

chimeric said:


> I disagree. Breeders are probably the only ones who would agree. There is zero reason why negotiations shouldn't be permitted. ESPECIALLY (not shouting), if the price is obviously inflated signif above market. When the lady in out west said $1500 shipped, I did not negotiate, not a penny. Negotiations is sometimes uncool, I agree. But, sometimes needed to slap a breeder who thinks they can take advantage of others, because they didn't know enough about the pricing.
> 
> I retract my 3-4K price. My price is 2-3K for a high quality pup, with the specs I am looking for. Fair or I am off my rocker?
> 
> ...


"There is zero reason why negotiations shouldn't be permitted." seems to be a personal opinion. It never ever crossed my mind to negotiate a breeders price. Given your own words from the beginning of the thread that you are a noob & need research means you probably have no clue about what breeders might need a slap for "taking advantage of others" or "because they didn't know enough about pricing".

Your experience of the initial breeder is much different from my experience and that strongly makes me think there was some kind of misunderstanding on your part or a miscommunication between the two of you. I was told the prices varied for each separate litter depending on who the parents were. I let her know which parents I was interested in. There was a set price for the short coats of the puppies of that litter and then the long coats were discounted from that price. Since you are looking at long coats you were probably already given the discount price, but you thought that they would discount off of the price....when again it already is the "discount" price.

I use to go there every weekend for a long time when I initially got my boy. I stopped to focus on photography. I just recently started going again for ring training for the upcoming USCA show this weekend. I forgot how enjoyable it is to go there for training. There are so many friendly & helpful people there that even a shy girl like myself feels at ease there. 

I've only ever purchased one dog myself so take it with a grain of salt if you wish. I am not speaking FOR the breeder, but giving you my own opinion of them. Heck even I at first was hesitant given the number of litters, but as martmechik pointed out perhaps you need a little more research about how a kennel name works or at least how theirs works. For a long time when I was looking for a breeder I felt so guilty about it. I volunteered so much of my life at a no-kill animal shelter that it felt like I was bad for not adopting. Once I made my decision on who to go with I had no guilt as, in my opinion, I am supporting a great breeder. 

Regardless I wish you the best of luck on your search.


----------



## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

martemchik said:


> And BTW OP...the conversation you just had with Liesje, is exactly what a breeder would love to hear before any question about money is posed. It didn't take you that long, and it's not bad. If that's how you come off...there wouldn't be any reason not to sell you a puppy.


This! And


> Also the "see if they can do better on the price" I would HIGHLY discourage. You are not going to be treated well by the better breeders that actually have quality dogs to offer.


This too because I am confused why you expect to get a show quality puppy or one with potential to be shown and eventually bred, at a bargain basement discount store price?
You should expect to pay top dollar for a breeding prospect, because typically breeders hold them back for themselves or to sell to other potential breeders!

Also be very open about wanting to eventually breed your dog and that will help your breeder choose one for you. You can also specify pet-quality and get one cheaper sometimes depending on the breeder! And on a contract to alter, quite probably, or as you saw, limited registration until or if the dog proves itself a worthy specimen to be bred!

You're in the right place to learn


----------



## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

One thing, I will always ask, for any purchase I make in life, if there is any room in the price. I am not talking about 50% off, I am talking about, more like if the pup was like $4000, and I feel there is nothing to justify that price, and think at max worth $3K, that is what I will offer. I have never offered $1000 off a $4000 dog, just saying. But, I was offered $500 off, their repeat customer discount, on a $3500 pup (which was really $3000, but raised for special-ed me) and that was it, plus pay $375 extra to ship (air). 

OK, can we forget about my horrible discount thing? It reminds me of trying to get a discount on my 2015 Golf R, where I got raped, because no VW Golf should cost 40K +++, but I paid it, since every dealer said it was VW's special litter and lucky they did not tack a market increase of 5K to it. I said here, rape me on my low miles super mint 2012 R trade in, and let me pay your MSRP, because I really want that car. Love the car, worth the price? Yes, to some. No, to many. But, I have a car I have yet to see anyone in my town drive own. That is special.

Wow, I am shot. Going from dogs to cars. 

From the picture of the dog I posted, I have yet to see a link, unless I missed it, that pointed me to a breeder that would produce something like that, from the dogs they were maiting. 

A problem I see from google images, is that MOST long coats are not what I want. So, maybe, even searching for one is not such a good idea, as a very young pup, better when they are 8-10 months older. I fear the pup may end up looking nothing like I hoped it to. Don't forget, I am shallow, and really do not want to waste my time and money on a dog I will not like, because it was an adorable 8 week old, which pup at that age isn't?! Don't want a dog looking more like a lion or chewbacca, with too much hair around the ears and face. Or, a dog turning out looking more like walking rug.

NO!




_ *** Oversized pic removed by Admin ***_

Yes










Yes










NO


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Most people will tell you that looks should be the last thing on the list. Health and temperament are first. A breeder will match a pup to you. 

So my question is...if the perfect pup came along but didn't match what you wanted in the looks department, what would you do?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

chimeric said:


> From the picture of the dog I posted, I have yet to see a link, unless I missed it, that pointed me to a breeder that would produce something like that, from the dogs they were maiting.
> 
> A problem *I see from google images*, is that MOST long coats are not what I want. So, maybe, even searching for one is not such a good idea, as a very young pup, better when they are 8-10 months older. I fear the pup may end up looking nothing like I hoped it to. Don't forget,* I am shallow, and really do not want to waste my time and money on a dog I will not like, because it was an adorable 8 week old,* which pup at that age isn't?! Don't want a dog looking more like a lion or chewbacca, with too much hair around the ears and face. Or, a dog turning out looking more like walking rug.
> 
> ...


the 'yes's' you posted aren't what I would want structurally. The roach back on #2 and the head on #3 are not representative of what the breed should be.
You need to get out and see more dogs in real life. Watch their movement and athleticism. Find some clubs with different lines training before you commit yourself to deep black and red.


----------



## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Most people will tell you that looks should be the last thing on the list. Health and temperament are first. A breeder will match a pup to you.
> 
> So my question is...if the perfect pup came along but didn't match what you wanted in the looks department, what would you do?


It would not be a perfect match then.
Of course temperment and health are very important.
I have toddlers, if one of my girls gets injured, the dog is going down by my 9mm. Enough with the testing me out. What ever you experts here would love in a WGSL dog (outside of looks), that is what I want, plus the specific looks I want.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> the 'yes's' you posted aren't what I would want structurally. The roach back on #2 and the head on #3 are not representative of what the breed should be.
> You need to get out and see more dogs in real life. Watch their movement and athleticism. Find some clubs with different lines training before you commit yourself to deep black and red.


Those are VA1 sieger dogs.

What about this one?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chimeric said:


> It would not be a perfect match then.
> Of course temperment and health is very important.
> I have toddlers, if one of my girls gets injured, the dog is going down by my 9mm. Enough with the testing me out. What ever you experts here would love in a WGSL dog (outside of looks), that is what I want, plus the specific looks I want.


I'm sure that breeders would love to hear this. If a dog with a solid temperament hurts your kid then chances are is human error. 

I don't believe you are ready for a dog much less a GSD. I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt early on, but this statement says a lot about a person. There is more of a reason that you were turned down.

With kids in the house temperament is really all that matters.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

chimeric said:


> Those are VA1 sieger dogs.
> 
> What about this one?


I know whose dog this is, he is gorgeous, well groomed and well loved!


----------



## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> I know whose dog this is, he is gorgeous, well groomed and well loved!


Which one? The Seiger owner? lol

Or, hopefully, the dog in the pic you have quoted.
http://mittelwest.com/testimonials/

Ibsen, 2nd yes pic dog. Duke was the other one, not sure he was a VA1 Sieger. 

My ideal.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Like I said earlier,

Watch the USCA Sieger Show this weekend. See who wins. Follow that dog and get one of his progeny. Easy enough. That dog will be bred plenty in the coming months.

There is now even a separate class for coated dogs...so you just have to pick one from there.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Like I said earlier,
> 
> Watch the USCA Sieger Show this weekend. See who wins. Follow that dog and get one of his progeny. Easy enough. That dog will be bred plenty in the coming months.
> 
> There is now even a separate class for coated dogs...so you just have to pick one from there.


 Like on TV? Because, as mentioned, I cannot go up there. Date/Time/Channel?

Don't you think if that dog wins, there will be a surge of interest for pups, making it very hard for me to buy one. Just PM me the name of the winner/breeder, since I am sure you believe you know who it will be.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

there will be many breeders using the winning dog...
you can watch the updates(vids) online. Home
starts at 9 am....right about now!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yup, online streaming.

Today is the performance test, tomorrow is the younger dogs, and Sunday is the working class.

You'll be most interested in the working class.

I'm not PMing you anything as you're the one buying the dog. Not up to the rest of us to do the research for you.

On top of that, I don't do show lines. I'm going to the show to support some friends and people that I train with.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Yup, online streaming.
> 
> Today is the performance test, tomorrow is the younger dogs, and Sunday is the working class.
> 
> ...


 That contradicts everything about being a dog lover and enthusiast. I would help ANYONE with info, if I had any, to help. My "human" nature.

Thanks *onyx'girl*
Streaming started for anyone yet?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Streaming isn't working for me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lol...you want me, to sit there all day, to find out who wins the show, just so that I can let you know the winner while you're off enjoying your Sunday?

Dog lover and enthusiast? You have so much to learn about the different lines of GSD. I couldn't care less who wins the show (hopefully my friends do with their beautiful Mittlewest bitch).

Lucky for you, I'm sure you'll be able to see the winner posted on the website.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Lol...you want me, to sit there all day, to find out who wins the show, just so that I can let you know the winner while you're off enjoying your Sunday?
> 
> Dog lover and enthusiast? You have so much to learn about the different lines of GSD. I couldn't care less who wins the show (hopefully my friends do with their beautiful Mittlewest bitch).
> 
> Lucky for you, I'm sure you'll be able to see the winner posted on the website.


Don't make assumptions.
1) Did NOT ask you to research for me, just point me to breeders, that are in your massive head.
2) I am willing to watch the show, not asking you to tell me jack, and asked is it streaming for you, because it is not streaming for me.

Man, get off your high horse, ooops, dog.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

chimeric said:


> That contradicts everything about being a dog lover and enthusiast. I would help ANYONE with info, if I had any, to help. My "human" nature.
> 
> Thanks *onyx'girl*
> Streaming started for anyone yet?


Lol seriously dude?
You expect that to fly?
I can't watch TV and because you can't watch it for me you are not a dog lover and enthusiast? 

????


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Why don't you look at getting an adult dog? There will be no surprises about what the dog will look like that way, and you won't go through the puppy landshark stage with toddlers running around. The dog should have some training done as well. Most breeders have adults available from time to time.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I can't watch TV and because you can't watch it for me you are not a dog lover and enthusiast?
> 
> ��������


 _*** STOP WITH THE FOUR LETTER WORDS - ADMIN ***
_
Not what I meant at all. :facepalm:

People who have nothing positive to post, please do NOT post at all.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> I retract my 3-4K price. My price is 2-3K for a high quality pup, with the specs I am looking for. Fair or I am off my rocker?


Fair, that should be fine




> 9 pages later, and I have not come any closer to finding what I want than the last three months here.


I don't think that's so true....we've helped determine the type of GSD you seem to be looking for based on your requirements for looks and there have been half a dozen breeders shared/recommended. If by "closer" you mean finding a puppy you can buy now, then probably no amount of threads will help with that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What a thoroughly ridiculous circle thread. 

There is a GSDCA club in Lutz Fl.
SV Regional Clubs

I would suggest you contact them, possibly visit them and watch the dog. Anyone seriously looking for a conformation dog or a working dog is going to spend some time driving to events and clubs to watch the dogs. Start your research locally.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

The yeses you showed have strong potential for being crippled. Even as pups they walk with feet dragging. Do a search here. It's sad!


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

osito23 said:


> Why don't you look at getting an adult dog? There will be no surprises about what the dog will look like that way, and you won't go through the puppy landshark stage with toddlers running around. The dog should have some training done as well. Most breeders have adults available from time to time.


 Very good advice, thought of that a LOT. Why we went to go see the pup on post 1.

Thing is, a lot of dogs, when raised by others until adults, tendency to want to run out the door, when taking them home. Owned A LOT of dogs in my life, even pre-owned, and that has happened to us before.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> Don't you think if that dog wins, there will be a surge of interest for pups, making it very hard for me to buy one. Just PM me the name of the winner/breeder, since I am sure you believe you know who it will be.


Yes there will be a surge of interest from people who are just interested about the winner, the dogs will get a gazillion breedings so generally it is not hard to find a pup (but not one you can buy and have shipped a few weeks later). In the US I don't think the breedings are limited as they are on Germany (and even there the number is ridiculously high).
http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

SkoobyDoo said:


> The yeses you showed have strong potential for being crippled. Even as pups they walk with feet dragging. Do a search here. It's sad!


 Are you talking about DM? They have been DNA cleared.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

chimeric said:


> You guys are non-sttop pulling stuff out the arse.
> Not what I meant at all. :facepalm:
> 
> People who have nothing positive to post, please do NOT post at all.


It was fairly obvious to most that you were asking for his pick, based on his experience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> Thing is, a lot of dogs, when raised by others until adults, tendency to want to run out the door, when taking them home. Owned A LOT of dogs in my life, even pre-owned, and that has happened to us before.


Interesting, I've had more dogs I got as adults than ones I got as puppies and have not had this experience, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to raise a puppy.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

chimeric said:


> Very good advice, thought of that a LOT. Why we went to go see the pup on post 1.
> 
> Thing is, a lot of dogs, when raised by others until adults, tendency to want to run out the door, when taking them home. Owned A LOT of dogs in my life, even pre-owned, and that has happened to us before.


Fair enough. Are you willing to ship a puppy? (Sorry if this has been answered - no time to dig through the whole thread).


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Lilie said:


> It was fairly obvious to most that you were asking for his pick, based on his experience.


 I guess I was trying to be sarcastic and put him on the spot, if the dog did not win 



Liesje said:


> Interesting, I've had more dogs I got as adults than ones I got as puppies and have not had this experience, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to raise a puppy.


 I'd prefer a year old or less, that had all the hard work already done, that I can 100% trust with my kids, and not flight. Thanks for the advice, I trust a moderator's opinion more than, some others.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

osito23 said:


> Fair enough. Are you willing to ship a puppy? (Sorry if this has been answered - no time to dig through the whole thread).


I am willing to import even more.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Email breeders that you think have what you are looking for. None of us can help them choose you for one of their dogs. 

I was curious and went back to my first point of contact with my breeder. I gave them a pretty good picture about what I was looking for and we went from there, I waited over a year for my dog but good things come to those who wait. I have a decent relationship with them now and discovered that they did their homework on me as well before agreeing to sell me one of their dogs.

It's a two way street responsible breeders won't sell to the first person with money in hand, they want to know where their dogs are going.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Here's another breeder to look at:

Bullinger Shepherds

They're in Canada but will ship. They have puppies, young adults, and titled adults for sale. Tracy will match the right dog to you. My boy's sire is a Bullinger dog, and I love him: great temperament, SG show rated, training in IPO and agility, and is a fantastic family pet. Good luck in your search.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

*Open Long Coat*
 Male 
Soren vom Kuckucksland 
SiTanka vom Bergmann 
Viggo vom Haus Barrett 
Female
Dayton vom Adel Haus 
Keisha vom Haus Barrett 

*Working Class Long Coat
*Male
Aristotle Osiris vom Royale 
Leonidas vom Fiemereck 
Caleb vom Haus Dagenhart 
Glock Q vom Gurnwald Haus 

*Young Dog Class Long Coat*
Male
Kai von der Fekdscheune 
Gero vom Kleinen Holzweg
Jocose vom Mittelwest 
Q's Rhett Butler vom Drach Feld 
Amigo vom Old Post 

Female
Yoshi vom Mittelwest 
Tina vom Hauswalder Bach 
Castlebrooks Coniah 
Hazel zum Kolbenguss

*Youth Dog Class Long Coat*
Male
Armani vom Feuermelder 
Billy vom Feuermelder 
Armani vom Vertrauen 
Orkan vom Grunwald Haus 
Female
Oleanna vom Haus Merkel 
Hope vom Sturm und Drang 
Ziska vom Majic Forest 
Abigail vom Feuermelder 
Ava vom Vertrauen (pulled)

*Senior Puppy Class Long Coat*
Male
Milo aus Mecklenburg
Female
Vica vom Grunwald Haus 
Chiara vom Team Barrett 
Fizzy vom Landheim 
Castlebrooks Blyss 
Hannahs Scarlett Letter vom Steadman 
Maggie Aus Mecklenburg 

*Junior Puppy Class Long Coat
*Male
Chuck vom Team Furstenbrunn 
Zapper vom Mittelwest 
Female
Mystic vom Fürstenbrunn 
Rogue von Huerta Hof 

*Baby Puppy Class Long Coats*
Female
Goddess Athena von Schnieden Fels 
Briska vom Gronachtal


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> I'd prefer a year old or less, that had all the hard work already done, that I can 100% trust with my kids, and not flight. Thanks for the advice, I trust a moderator's opinion more than, some others.


It sounds like with kids and having experiences with flighty dogs, you really need to focus on temperament and maybe not be as concerned with the look or whether the sire is the VA1 Sieger. I have met and been in the ring with some of the dogs that will be in the show this weekend, I've even been bit by one. I would look for breeders that really know their dogs and focus on good temperament and steer away from breeders cramming titles on the dog to get the minimum breeding requirements so they can continue to show and be bred. I would highly recommend Heidi Theis http://www.theishof.com/. She is pretty far away and a much smaller scale breeder but she really knows her stuff. Her dogs are beautiful and have good temperaments. She trains and titles dogs herself (doesn't ship them off to get titles questionably put on them in less than a year). As far as I know, she is very well respected in the show and working communities. She handled my dog for me at the Sieger Show when he was just a puppy. If I were looking for another WGSL dog, she would be the first person I would look at. I cannot stress enough the importance of temperament and you are right, you absolutely do not want a flighty dog around your kids, not just because of the door dashing but a dog unsettled like that is probably more likely to bite when it is annoyed or feels cornered. You really need a "clear headed" and "high threshold" dog probably "medium drives" or the more laid back (but not too deadpan or fearful) puppy in the litter. The words in quotes are terms I would use when looking for a kid-safe dog.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

gaia_bear said:


> Email breeders that you think have what you are looking for. *None of us can help them choose you for one of their dogs.*
> 
> I was curious and went back to my first point of contact with my breeder. I gave them a pretty good picture about what I was looking for and we went from there, I waited over a year for my dog but good things come to those who wait. I have a decent relationship with them now and discovered that they did their homework on me as well before agreeing to sell me one of their dogs.
> 
> It's a two way street responsible breeders won't sell to the first person with money in hand, they want to know where their dogs are going.


I am NOT asking ANYONE to pick a dog for me. I am asking everyone, who may know of a breeder, top of their head or recently viewed somewhere, that showed a dog that looks like what I want.



osito23 said:


> Here's another breeder to look at:
> 
> Bullinger Shepherds
> 
> They're in Canada but will ship. They have puppies, young adults, and titled adults for sale. Tracy will match the right dog to you. My boy's sire is a Bullinger dog, and I love him: great temperament, SG show rated, training in IPO and agility, and is a fantastic family pet. Good luck in your search.


Thank you, will deff look into them. :thumbup:


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> It sounds like with kids and having experiences with flighty dogs, *you really need to focus on temperament* and maybe not be as concerned with the look or whether the sire is the VA1 Sieger. I have met and been in the ring with some of the dogs that will be in the show this weekend, I've even been bit by one. I would look for breeders that really know their dogs and focus on good temperament and *steer away from breeders cramming titles on the dog to get the minimum breeding requirements so they can continue to show and be bred*. I would highly recommend Heidi Theis Theishof German Shepherd Puppies for sale in Boise, Idaho.  We can ship to any state!. She is pretty far away and a much smaller scale breeder but she really knows her stuff. Her dogs are beautiful and have good temperaments. She trains and titles dogs herself (doesn't ship them off to get titles questionably put on them in less than a year). As far as I know, she is very well respected in the show and working communities. She handled my dog for me at the Sieger Show when he was just a puppy. *If I were looking for another WGSL dog, she would be the first person I would look at*. I cannot stress enough the importance of temperament and you are right, you absolutely do not want a flighty dog around your kids, not just because of the door dashing but a dog unsettled like that is probably more likely to bite when it is annoyed or feels cornered. You really need a "clear headed" and "high threshold" dog probably "medium drives" or the more laid back (but not too deadpan or fearful) puppy in the litter. The words in quotes are terms I would use when looking for a kid-safe dog.


 Most deff on temp. Come on... But, how does one know as a pup it will be of great temp? 

I can't agree more, I don't know why I am fixated on them. I still email them, even today. :facepalm:

Thank you for that recommendation.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chimeric said:


> Most deff on temp. Come on... But, how does one know as a pup it will be of great temp?
> 
> I can't agree more, I don't know why I am fixated on them. I still email them, even today. :facepalm:
> 
> Thank you for that recommendation.


Because they have spent decades raising, training, showing, titling, and breeding their lines. Temperament is genetic. You can tell a LOT in just 8 weeks (or sometimes breeders will hang on to a few pups longer to make their final pick). Same reason a Dr. can examine you and probably determine what is ailing you, because s/he has the necessary training and experience to do so. Good breeders will not sell puppies in "pick order", they will match each puppy with the prospective owner based on temperament and which one is a fit for that family.

http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

chimeric said:


> Most deff on temp. Come on... But, how does one know as a pup it will be of great temp?
> 
> I can't agree more, I don't know why I am fixated on them. I still email them, even today. :facepalm:
> 
> Thank you for that recommendation.


When you are dealing with a breeder that truly knows their dogs and knows the lineage it's downright amazing what they can tell you about temperment of a pup and what it is going to turn out like.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

** post removed by ADMIN. HUGE over sized photo (photos should not be more than 800X600). **


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Does anyone have any sound on the live stream?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You win some, you lose some. Getting screwed over is more like paying $2500+ for a puppy and then finding out it's missing permanent teeth, missing testicles, and has some other congenital health problems and then getting no support from the breeder. This hasn't happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others. I have had experiences where I've planned on a puppy, known the pedigree, even named it, and then the pregnancy didn't take or was lost and I have to start over from scratch finding a dog when my heart was set on that one.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chimeric said:


> *Junior Puppy Class Long Coat*
> Male
> Chuck vom Team Furstenbrunn
> Zapper vom Mittelwest
> ...


I am going to go see Katherine and Rogue aka Tesla on my lunch break today.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> You win some, you lose some. Getting screwed over is more like paying $2500+ for a puppy and then finding out it's missing permanent teeth, missing testicles, and has some other congenital health problems and then getting no support from the breeder. This hasn't happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others. I have had experiences where I've planned on a puppy, known the pedigree, even named it, and then the pregnancy didn't take or was lost and I have to start over from scratch finding a dog when my heart was set on that one.


You see, if I find a pup, based on pictures and recommendation, breeders info over email and/or phone, and come to find out things were not disclosed and could have prevented it. Do I have to write down every anatomical part on a contract and ask if they are good? Mention everything physical and mental one could possibly ask? That is sort of making me say forget all this, I don't have the time, resource, energy and will still end up forgetting something and getting something undisclosed and not desirable. Let go cry like a little girl for a few minutes. BRB...

Still no live feed for me. This so bites!

Edit: Woot, just came up, this it was a mittelwest dog first shown to me. Pretty.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on what you want. I personally do not care about contracts or "guarantees" because I realize I am purchasing a living thing. I do my research up front about the lines and genetics and make an informed decision on which dogs to buy as far as their health and temperament and what can be reasonably predicted. I do not care for contracts (none of my current dogs have them). If a health issue arises, I will deal with it. If you want to be able to swap your dog out if it has something like HD, ED, or a retained testicle, then by all means scrutinize the purchase agreement. The good breeders I know will work with their buyers (who are many times their friends and training mates) even if there is no contract spelling everything out.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> Depends on what you want. I personally do not care about contracts or "guarantees" because I realize I am purchasing a living thing. I do my research up front about the lines and genetics and make an informed decision on which dogs to buy as far as their health and temperament and what can be reasonably predicted. I do not care for contracts (none of my current dogs have them). If a health issue arises, I will deal with it. If you want to be able to swap your dog out if it has something like HD, ED, or a retained testicle, then by all means scrutinize the purchase agreement. The good breeders I know will work with their buyers (who are many times their friends and training mates) even if there is no contract spelling everything out.


Contracts, never really thought too much about them or guarantee's. Will consider your views on them. Thank you.

As far as the show:
I watched some of the show, could not understand a word they've said, when naming the dogs. Best dog of the few I have seen, imo (not a long coat), was a Kuckucksland, as far as best trained/performance. I may be way off, but?


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

chimeric said:


> Are you talking about DM? They have been DNA cleared.


No. I've seen more than a few puppies with the issue, its' how they are "built" and they have very weak back ends.
It's different than DM but just as sad!


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

SkoobyDoo said:


> No. I've seen more than a few puppies with the issue, its' how they are "built" and they have very weak back ends.
> It's different than DM but just as sad!


My 7 yr old GSD started pooping black tar, non-stop, and loosing a lot of strength on his hind legs. Don't recall DM, do recall softball sized tumor in his large intestine and it was said it was pressed against his spine, maybe messing with the nerve's? Eitherway, when he was injected (could not move, but could breath his cries and look at me and know what was to follow with fear, just by looking into my eyes, was so traumatic to me. He was not a spiritless animal. He had too much spirit. I hope I will see him again. Wish I never go through that, ever. But, death is never beautiful. Last three recent dogs (non-gsd's) passings all went through stuff that really sucked to see.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

osito23 said:


> Here's another breeder to look at:
> 
> Bullinger Shepherds
> 
> They're in Canada but will ship. They have puppies, young adults, and titled adults for sale. Tracy will match the right dog to you. My boy's sire is a Bullinger dog, and I love him: great temperament, SG show rated, training in IPO and agility, and is a fantastic family pet. Good luck in your search.


Keefer is from Bullinger lines, and so was his half sister Dena. I didn't get them from Bullinger, so I can't comment on what she's like to deal with as a breeder. Here's a pic of Keef that I posted in another thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/554530-red-color.html#post6867682

Dena's pedigree: Dena V TeMar

Keefer's (registered name Lakota) pedigree: Lakota V TeMar


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually Max is very helpful. Has been to me.

It's all in how _you_ approach things. 

You've been helped quite a bit in this thread. 

I just don't know why? I caught a lot more heck when I was a newbie here for far less. 




chimeric said:


> That contradicts everything about being a dog lover and enthusiast. I would help ANYONE with info, if I had any, to help. My "human" nature.
> 
> Thanks *onyx'girl*
> Streaming started for anyone yet?


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Keefer is from Bullinger lines, and so was his half sister Dena. I didn't get them from Bullinger, so I can't comment on what she's like to deal with as a breeder. Here's a pic of Keef that I posted in another thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/554530-red-color.html#post6867682
> 
> Dena's pedigree: Dena V TeMar
> 
> Keefer's (registered name Lakota) pedigree: Lakota V TeMar


 Good looking dogs! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

chimeric said:


> I am NOT asking ANYONE to pick a dog for me. I am asking everyone, who may know of a breeder, top of their head or recently viewed somewhere, that showed a dog that looks like what I want.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, will deff look into them. :thumbup:


 
I wasn't referring to us picking a dog for you...more of a breeder chosing you to purchase one of their pups, was just trying to offer my experience as a puppy buyer when it comes to purchasing a dog. I know nothing of show kennels BUT have heard decent things about this kennel German Shepherd Breeders Ontario | German Shepherd Puppies | German Shepherd Puppies For Sale.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

gaia_bear said:


> I wasn't referring to us picking a dog for you...more of a breeder chosing you to purchase one of their pups, was just trying to offer my experience as a puppy buyer when it comes to purchasing a dog. I know nothing of show kennels BUT have heard decent things about this kennel German Shepherd Breeders Ontario | German Shepherd Puppies | German Shepherd Puppies For Sale.


Thanks for the link, but seriously, this is all over my head. I can't sit here all day, everyday, research this, that and so on, just to find out I still know nothing. I would love a good, beautiful LC GSD, but I really don't think the probability of me bing 100% happy with a choice will be possible. Not risking temperment, genetic disorders, conformaty, etc. issues that depress me and get stuck with an expensive mistake. Only way is to find an adult, but even that is not easy to select right by me. So, I am giving up. 

As requested earlier, just close this thread.

Thanks all.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

chimeric said:


> Thanks for the link, but seriously, this is all over my head. I can't sit here all day, everyday, research this, that and so on, just to find out I still know nothing. I would love a good, beautiful LC GSD, but I really don't think the probability of me bing 100% happy with a choice will be possible. Not risking temperment, genetic disorders, conformaty, etc. issues that depress me and get stuck with an expensive mistake. Only way is to find an adult, but even that is not easy to select right by me. So, I am giving up.
> 
> As requested earlier, just close this thread.
> 
> Thanks all.


 
Find a breeder you like, email them what you are looking for and go from there. A good established breeder will know their lines and give you exactly what you are looking for.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How many GSDs of the type you want have you actually met? I would start there. I know lots of people in Florida with WGSL GSDs so they are not rare. Go to some local shows, training clubs, etc. Meet dogs. Decide which ones you like and don't like. Then ask the people with the ones you like where they got them. The Internet can be a blessing and a curse when it comes to dogs.


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## chimeric (May 14, 2015)

Liesje said:


> How many GSDs of the type you want have you actually met? I would start there. I know lots of people in Florida with WGSL GSDs so they are not rare. Go to some local shows, training clubs, etc. Meet dogs. Decide which ones you like and don't like. Then ask the people with the ones you like where they got them. The Internet can be a blessing and a curse when it comes to dogs.


Thanks, but I really don't have the energy to find the right one, and then do all the work after I have found the right one. 

Sorry, just close the thread if you will. I am done here.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

chimeric said:


> Cried to the mods? Got me warned? What little girl you are? Gay? Pfffttt,...


you'll get banned for talking like that to other members.
People gave you many suggestions, including me, and it is still not good enough for you? You are not going to be literally handed the perfect dog you want for doing squat. Do YOUR research, go to shows, and pick out a dog you like and asked which breeder he/she was from. What is so hard about that?


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