# Fronts for puppy mills?



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Before I have expressed concerns that some rescue organizations and some breeders with reputations may be fronts for puppy mills. I think it’s important to try to make a good thorough open-minded investigation of an organization before adopting or buying dogs from them.

I visited a so-called reputable breeder once that was very suspicious and I didn’t adopt or buy a dog from him. Though he knew a lot about dogs and had a good reputation and had won many shows. He did not seem to know the names or the personalities of the dogs he was pushing. The dogs he was pushing didn’t seem like they knew him very well. It seems almost as if he was using his show dogs and his reputation as a front for a puppy mill. 
　
Now I see there is new suspicions about a “rescue agency”. 
Puppy Rescue Plus More, aka Forever Puppies Rescue


> A few days after that, the puppy died. SPCA Cincinnati board member and a volunteer for Labrador Rescue of Cincinnati Jim Tomaszewski says he sees lots of red flags. "The commercial store front would be a red flag to me."
> 
> And the fact that a rescue group would come upon so many darling dogs-all of them puppies. "Even if they did it would make me wonder what intake criteria was for the rescue."
> 
> Tomaszewski says most reputable rescues will make sure the animal is spayed or neutered when leaving the organization or shortly after if it's too young. There shouldn't be a time limit on returning the animal or getting it checked out and they should ask you a lot of questions about your home


Source and full story.
http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Woman-Fights-Puppy-Rescue-After-Dogs-Death/i-xI5c58bk-59p3UOBlshw.cspx
　
I suspect most breeders with a good reputation and I suspect most rescues are ethical. However beware; I think some of them may be fronts for unethical puppy mills.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

My professional opinion as an accountant is to look at the organization's legal structure. This is not an absolute, but a good indicator of the strategy or spirit behind the organization. You can typically access this type of information from your state's business registry.

What you'd like to see is the organization in question is registered as a 503(c) or non-profit organization, and more likely a legitimate rescue organization.

If the organization is a C-corporation, S-corporation, Limited Liability Company, Partnership, or Proprietorship, then it is a profit driven company, and could be a for profit breeder, or it could be a puppymill.

Although corrupt folks can mask a puppymill as a 503(c) non-profit and present it as a rescue organization, they would have to be very smart to avoid government scrutiny, as the only legal way to extract profits would be in the form of salary or wage compensation....so it is possible.


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## Moonlight (Aug 13, 2010)

That's really useful information W.Oliver!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> I visited a so-called reputable breeder once that was very suspicious and I didn’t adopt or buy a dog from him. Though he knew a lot about dogs and had a good reputation and had won many shows. He did not seem to know the names or the personalities of the dogs he was pushing. The dogs he was pushing didn’t seem like they knew him very well. *It seems almost as if he was using his show dogs and his reputation as a front for a puppy mill*.


Really? :thinking: That's quite an assertion. Do you know that as fact or is it just speculation? That seems like a weird conclusion to draw simply based on the observations you related. 

I read the article about the so-called rescue, and it sounds like there were plenty of warning signs that this was not a true rescue organization. I suppose there are people that would be fooled by the word "rescue" in the name, but as Wayne pointed out there are ways of checking these things.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A breeder cannot register as a not for profit organization. But a not for profit organization can actually breed dogs and sell them under the guise of a rescue. 

I do not think it is very common. But there are tricks in every trade, and people LIKE the terminology associated with rescues and "shelters" (to be more accurate, pounds). The like the idea that they are saving a dog from a terrible fate, and maybe even euthanasia. Or, they like the idea that their purchase of a dog is not encouraging more dogs to be bred. 

Petland here sells puppies. They tell the public that their puppies all come as rescues (which has been proven to be false). But it is what people want to hear. And it sells.

On this forum, there was a thread about a week ago, that was seriously blasting everyone who suggested the possibility that some rescues may not be reputable. And I would expect 98 percent of the potential puppy buyers out there going the rescue route would be totally sold on the simple word rescue and would never question the rescues policies and practices when it comes to selling their dogs. 

When people are turned down or hear of people turned down, they get miffed and miffed people are going to look closer at everything. 

But most of the people are completely blinded by the simple fact that this is a rescue.

If the dog is a little dirty, ok, this person is very busy helping dogs
If the dog is skinny, the poor thing was probably starved before it was saved by the rescue.
If the dog is sickly, you have to expect that since the dog has been through a rough time.
If the dog is aggressive, well, we just know he was abused.
If the dog has issues like OCD, well the bad breeding, poor nourishment, and poor environment before the rescue caused it. 

I have seen a rescue organization, passing around four week old puppies at a busy PetsMart and allowing people to carry them around the store, setting them down, etc. This was a rescue. And the state of their equipment and the knowledge of their people, I would not be surprised if some of these litters were bred by the individual, and if the animal's current living conditions reflected some of the same abuses as the some of the worst BYBs. 

And people are buying their puppies, thanking them for their hard work and sacrifices, and giving them donations. 

Wherever you get your puppy, you need people to be knowledgeable, willing to take the time to answer your questions, not giving you a bunch of buzz words and playing on your sympathies, you should trust them for what they can show you: the work they have done, the facilities, references, training, affiliations, and their knowledge. 

It would be nice to live where you could just believe that people doing a thing are doing it for the right reasons. Unfortunately, it just isn't the case.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know of a breeder aka puppy supplier that I might characterize as described in earlier posts. He was near where I lived in TX.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

The definition of a puppy mill is; Ain't me, it's the other guy. Whether the breeder is a show breeder, a breeder of working dogs, a breeder of sport dogs, they all add to the number of surplus dogs. Show breeders know only a handful of the hundreds born are really worthy of the ring. Working dog breeders know only a fraction of the dogs they breed are going to be what the customer wants. The same goes for sport dog breeders. It's why the term "pet quality" was invented. It gave these breeders an outlet for dogs they really don't want and for which the have no use. I guess it also made them feel better. At any rate; if the breeding adds to unwanted dogs, produces dogs that are not bettering the breed ---- would they not be from a puppy mill?

DFrost


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I drive past that place a lot, it's near my dog club. I've never gone inside, but it was obvious to me it was just a store front for puppy mills.

I read somewhere that Petland buys from the Hunte Corporation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DFrost said:


> The definition of a puppy mill is; Ain't me, it's the other guy. Whether the breeder is a show breeder, a breeder of working dogs, a breeder of sport dogs, they all add to the number of surplus dogs. Show breeders know only a handful of the hundreds born are really worthy of the ring. Working dog breeders know only a fraction of the dogs they breed are going to be what the customer wants. The same goes for sport dog breeders. It's why the term "pet quality" was invented. It gave these breeders an outlet for dogs they really don't want and for which the have no use. I guess it also made them feel better. At any rate; if the breeding adds to unwanted dogs, produces dogs that are not bettering the breed ---- would they not be from a puppy mill?
> 
> DFrost


So, in your opinion, all GSD breeders should stop and let the puppy mills take care of maintaining the breed or letting it die out?

Not every dog will go into the ring, no. Every one of my dogs CAN go and get a title. So, they ALL can go into obedience, rally, agility rings. They can ALL make good household companions and be deterrents to crime. 

Not everyone wants a super high drive, high energy dog that needs perpetual motion and a job. And a dog with light eyes or a long coat will be no less of a companion than one that will win in the show ring. Not everyone wants a show dog, or a working dog, they do want a well-bred dog that represents the breed. You cannot get this from puppy mills. 

If you shut down all the decent breeders, that is all that will be left. I am glad some unthanked and villianized individuals are not willing to let that happen.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

DFrost said:


> At any rate; if the breeding adds to unwanted dogs, produces dogs that are not bettering the breed ---- would they not be from a puppy mill?


Ok, if a breeder has a "first right to refusal" in the contracts that all buyers of their puppies sign, how is that adding to the unwanted dog population?? This means that if the buyer does not want the pup anymore, the breeder will (if they are reputable) take the puppy back and rehome that dog with someone else who wants it. No unwanted dogs in shelters in that situation. Reputable breeders make every attempt to keep their pups out of rescue and shelters. 

And breeding for the betterment of the breed... genetics is not perfectly predictable. Just because you have two dogs titled with Schutzhund III does not mean that every pup they produce can do that. But some of them will. That IS bettering the breed, when you stack the odds in your favor with two dogs that are representatives of what the breed should be, and you do produce dogs that are respresentatives of the breed. 

By the way, I am not a breeder. But I believe there are differences in puppy mills and reputable breeders. It is up to the BUYER to find breeders who do it right. BUYERS are the ones supporting puppy mills and pet shops. Because if no one wanted those pups, puppy mills would go out of business.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> DogGone said:
> 
> 
> > It seems almost as if he was using his show dogs and his reputation as a front for a puppy mill.
> ...


It’s obvious that I meant it as speculation. Is your grammar that bad, or are you just a troll? It’s pretty bad that this message board seems to have moderators that are trolls, that‘s probably why so many members are also trolls.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

selzer said:


> So, in your opinion, all GSD breeders should stop and let the puppy mills take care of maintaining the breed or letting it die out?
> 
> .


 
I didn't say that. I gave my opinion of what a puppy mill is. It's in the eye of the breeder. Everyone but me. ha ha. Hey I need the high drive dogs. I just get tired of hearing all the boo hoo about puppy mills and the full dog pounds. You don't have one, without the other. In other words, breeder, look unto thyself. Hey I know it's a touchy subject. I'm an end user, not a breeder. A very selective end user. 

DFrost


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

My sister always rides me about my dog Angeles because I bought him. Yes there are plenty of dogs in shelters and rescues that could have been saved. But I made a choice to buy my dog. I knew what I wanted and his name is Angeles (just like I wanted Louis my mini dachshund - who I consider rescued from that now closed pet store in Lilburn, GA over approx 14 years ago!). Does that make me a bad person for buying Angeles from reputable breeder (who also happened to stop breeding for a bit while the economy tanked - she didn't want her dogs ending up in shelters if she could help it)? Nope. And even if someone thinks so I don't really give a you know what. Not like their opinion matters in the least to little old me 

Just like it doesn't make people bad people for continuing to have their own human children instead of adopting all the available kids in the foster care and adoption programs ---- ooops I may have hit a nerve with my sister on that one! She has two of her own children and she could have saved two from the foster system!  How dare her judge me!  And she told my nephew that when someone buys a dog a shelter dog dies. Maybe someone should have told him that when someone has a new kid a foster kid dies - oh yeah....then he would never have been born if my sister just adopted a "rescue" kid! And I wouldn't want that - he turned out to be a cool kid.

Amazing how judgmental people can get until it smacks back at them and they say "oh....that is different!" Oh really? then why does my sister care so darn much for a mutt's life that she demands I get one from a rescue group instead of buying one yet she can breed? Hypocritcal if you ask me! Okay - no one did but it is my two cents and you can take it or leave it. 

Love rescues - don't get me wrong - I've done plenty of that in my life and have enjoyed my rescue dogs.....Just wanted to vent on the subject. :wild:


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Klamari said:


> Ok, if a breeder has a "first right to refusal" in the contracts that all buyers of their puppies sign, how is that adding to the unwanted dog population??
> 
> And breeding for the betterment of the breed... genetics is not perfectly predictable. Just because you have two dogs titled with Schutzhund III does not mean that every pup they produce can do that. But some of them will..


 
First off, I hear all about the right of first refusal and I'll take the puppy back etc, etc etc. While some may do it, it's probably done a lot less than you might think. 

As for the betterment of the breed; I never said it wasn't needed. I said that the definition of puppy mill is "anyone but me". If they are producing puppies, they are adding to the number of puppies available. Simple as that. 

Different argument but if we (USA breeders are doing such a bang up job, why are the majority of police dogs purchased from outside the USA. Different argument, different forum.

DFrost


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> It’s obvious that I meant it as speculation. Is your grammar that bad, or are you just a troll? It’s pretty bad that this message board seems to have moderators that are trolls, that‘s probably why so many members are also trolls.


Are you for real? :rofl:


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

I know it's not always the case that a breeder honors the right to refusal. But I'm hoping to find one that does  

Ok, if you want to be completely literal, then yes, they are both producing puppies. You are right. I think the difference between the two is whether they are producing, and contributing to (along with buyers) the number of dogs eventually killed in shelters. 

And believe me I get the boo hoo about shelters directed at me too when I tell people I'm buying from a breeder (/puppy mill of a certain type). I support rescues. But I need my dog to do a specific job, that type of dog will be very hard to find in a rescue. And being as I dont have unlimited funds, I need to stack the odds that I will get that dog when I spend the money.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Klamari said:


> But I need my dog to do a specific job, that type of dog will be very hard to find in a rescue. And being as I dont have unlimited funds, I need to stack the odds that I will get that dog when I spend the money.


As do I. It's why I and most police trainers don't buy puppies. We need our dogs for specific jobs as well. While we may have a somewhat larger budget, it is certainly not unlimited. We stack the odds by purchasing adult dogs, that display the behaviors needed and are medically fit. The odds are stacked considerably in our favor that way. 

DFrost


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

DFrost said:


> As do I. It's why I and most police trainers don't buy puppies. We need our dogs for specific jobs as well. While we may have a somewhat larger budget, it is certainly not unlimited. We stack the odds by purchasing adult dogs, that display the behaviors needed and are medically fit. The odds are stacked considerably in our favor that way.
> 
> DFrost


From what I've been told New York State has used a lot of shelter / rescue dogs and had them trained. Not saying dogs are not bought, but I wonder if it depends on the budget/state/resources?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

19 of my 50 dogs have come from shelters, rescues or pounds. While it's not all that uncommon to find a single purpose dog in a shelter (ie drug or explosives detector) a dual purpose dog is extremely difficult. A dual purpose would be one trained in apprehension work and detection. It's been sort of a holy grail for me over a good number of years. I've just not been fortunate enough to find that quality of a dog in a shelter etc.

dFrost


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Ok, if a breeder has a "first right to refusal" in the contracts that all buyers of their puppies sign, how is that adding to the unwanted dog population?? This means that if the buyer does not want the pup anymore, the breeder will (if they are reputable) take the puppy back and rehome that dog with someone else who wants it.


Many of the breeders pumping out many litters at once may have that in their contract but will euth the dog that is returned rather than try to find a home for it. The dog was returned for a reason, and if they are having multiple litters constantly, why would they take the time to re-hab a temperament problem or get vet diagnosis on what they produced which was probably genetic in the first place, too much time and money-not worth it because they have new buyers constantly. 
Sad....though it does keep the dog from getting dumped at a shelter.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I wouldn't place reputable breeders in the same category as puppy mills because good breeders don't pump out puppies like crazy. They do selective breeding and most of the time have 1-2 litters a year, they health test, and title the sires and dams, they take care of them too, they also take very good care of the puppies they produce and offer support to their buyers. Heck some good breeders even offer support and advice to those who don't even buy from them!

Its unfair to put good breeders in the same category as puppy mills. Puppy mills don't give a rats butt about the dogs they own. When they see a dog all they see is $$$$.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

There's a pet store here that's found in malls called Puppies n' Love. All over their website, they preach that their puppies are from reputable breeders, not puppy mills, etc. 
They charge $1,500+ for a puppy, most common seems to be around $2,000ish. I go in there every now and then just to play with the pups, and sometimes some of them look sickly. Swollen bellies, ribs showing, diarrhea, etc. 

One time someone came into my work and the had the Puppies n' Love shirt and I asked her how it was to work there. She'd just quit that day because it was too sad for her. She said never to buy anything from there, ever. She was almost in tears. She said that the way the puppies came in was just pitiful and she tried her best to take care of them, but it was just too much for her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No reputable breeder lets someone else sell their puppies in a store. 

If the puppy is being sold in a pet store, it came from a puppy mill.

Even BYBs sell their puppies themselves, most of them do care about where there puppy is going.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> No reputable breeder lets someone else sell their puppies in a store.
> 
> If the puppy is being sold in a pet store, it came from a puppy mill.
> 
> Even BYBs sell their puppies themselves, most of them do care about where there puppy is going.


Most people don't read into it though. They just assume, "Oh, the website says they're from reputable breeders, so it must be true!"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

well so long as there will be people willing to buy from pet stores, there will be people willing to provide the pet stores with puppies. 

It is funny really. People who say, "I would NEVER by a puppy from a breeder" feel like they are rescuing puppies from a pet store, and they will do it. It was in that filthy cage with all those other puppies yiping around it. It looked at me with such sad eyes. blah blah. You can tell them that doing this supports puppy mills and condemns the breeding animals to more and more pregnancies. And if falls on deaf ears. They do not care. This puppy needs a home. I bought it to rescue it from that place. 

These people are not evil, and they are not stupid, some are not even uninformed. I think that most of them are acting through their emotions rather than their logic. It does not make it any less bad. But it is something to consider. If you are a person who is prone to act through your heart rather than your mind, then do not go into stores that sell puppies. Some unhappy little guy with four feet will catch your eye, and if you have a cc on you that is not maxed, you might just go home with him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh, and I think people know. They know deep down. But they are happy to grasp at anything that makes it easier for them to do what they want.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There is a puppy store at a mall near me call Barkworks, there is a documentary on the place and it shows where the puppies come from. Sure enough they come from a puppy mill, even though employees say they come from reputable breeders.I have gone in there and the place smells! The puppies are almost always asleep cramped into little boxes with shredded paper, no toys, no interaction with anyone(not even the employees, they are actually quite stupid when it comes to know about the breeds) they those "designer" mixes too. And they have outrageous prices.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lately, the designer dogs have been taking over the pet stores in our malls. 

It's sad, really. To see the number of puppies in there, knowing that they're only there because people will spend that kind of money on a mill bred puppy than a reputably bred one.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

What happens to puppies that ARE NOT sold at the pet store? I mean, the store cannot keep these little ones forever. What do they do with them if they do not get sold? Does the "breeder" take them back, or what? Anyone know?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

It wouldn't surprise me actually if the mill would take them back for breeding. I'm not sure if this is what they do, but it makes sense. 

You can only breed a dog so many times before you breed it to death, especially the females.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I personally don't want to know.=(


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> You can only breed a dog so many times before you breed it to death, especially the females.


Years ago, we purchased a cocker spaniel from a BYB. The “breeder” even delivered Annie to our front door! When she dropped Annie off, she came inside our house for a few minutes. She explained what I needed to do with the AKC papers, took her $50.00 and left. She couldn’t get out of there fast enough...it was like she was worried I was going to change my mind. We only chit-chatted for a few moments but in those few moments I learned a lot. Annie was 2 years old and had had 3 litters of puppies!!!  This woman all but admitted she was a BYB. She said she had a whole kennel full of bitches and a couple of stud dogs. She sold most of the pups to pet shops...but some individual buyers, too. 

Of course we had poor Annie spayed within the week! She actually lived quite a long time and had very few health problems, which is odd considering where she came from.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> No reputable breeder lets someone else sell their puppies in a store.
> 
> If the puppy is being sold in a pet store, it came from a puppy mill.
> 
> Even BYBs sell their puppies themselves, most of them do care about where there puppy is going.


 Our local puppy selling petstore will buy puppies from local pet people. 

I think something worth thinking about is that puppy selling pet stores have greatly decreased in popularity. 15 or so year ago, we had six or more puppy selling petstores within a half hour or so drive (FWIW one exclusively bought from local pet people with litters). Both of the malls had very busy bigger name puppy selling pet stores and there were multiple other, smaller name stores. Now we have just two total and none in the malls. One used to be a Petland but is now Harbor Pets. It seemed to do a good business for the first few years as Petland but I guess started dwindling in recent years. The other is a grooming shop who also sells puppies. 

One thing I have seen a big increase in around here is "rescues" who pretty much only buy desirable young dogs from auctions then "adopt" them out for $400-1000. One of these was a regular rescue until a couple years ago. Now their Petfinder listing is full of designer puppies and desirable purebreds with high adoption fees. It's kinda interesting, since such rescuers have simply become brokers for commercially bred dogs, regardless of their original intentions. 




Konotashi said:


> You can only breed a dog so many times before you breed it to death, especially the females.


 Actually it's pretty natural for dogs to have multiple litters throughout their life. That's what all intact dogs would do if left to their own devices - reproduce. No different from any other animal. Reproductive vets actually feel that it is healthiest for the dog to to back to back or even back to back to back breedings instead of skipping heat cycles between litters.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> One thing I have seen a big increase in around here is "rescues" who pretty much only buy desirable young dogs from auctions then "adopt" them out for $400-1000. One of these was a regular rescue until a couple years ago. Now their Petfinder listing is full of designer puppies and desirable purebreds with high adoption fees. It's kinda interesting, since such rescuers have simply become brokers for commercially bred dogs, regardless of their original intentions.


This type of "rescue" and the one Selzer mentioned in the beginning of the thread are what give the rest a bad name. These are not examples of reputable rescues and are just taking advantage of the word "rescue" to make a buck. This just further drives home that you need to do your homework when considering a rescue.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> One thing I have seen a big increase in around here is "rescues" who pretty much only buy desirable young dogs from auctions then "adopt" them out for $400-1000. One of these was a regular rescue until a couple years ago. Now their Petfinder listing is full of designer puppies and desirable purebreds with high adoption fees. It's kinda interesting, since such rescuers have simply become brokers for commercially bred dogs, regardless of their original intentions.


I'm with gsdraven on this. In what crazy world do you BUY a dog from a dog auction (which is where puppy millers sell their dogs) and then resell them for $1000 as a 'rescue'? 

People just need to educate themselves on where they SHOULD buy a dog.

AND SPAY/NEUTER THEIR PETS!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> In what crazy world do you BUY a dog from a dog auction (which is where puppy millers sell their dogs) and then resell them for $1000 as a 'rescue'?


It reminds me of people who knowingly buy a dog from a mill or pet store and then tell us they were "rescuing" the dog. Sorry, but money lining the pockets of the millers is not "rescuing", it is furthering their cause. If you want to get to the root of the problem, expose them for what they are or offer to buy the poor brood bitch, not the cute puppy in the window.

I don't even like using the term "rescue" for my dog from a rescue. I don't feel like I "rescued" him. I didn't do anything but apply for him on PetFinder and pay a minimal adoption fee. The rescue did all the work pulling an unwanted pregnant dog from the county pound, caring for her during whelp, caring for the puppies and adopting them out, taking one back when the owners became ill, fostering him, finding a new home. I don't feel any better or worse about myself because my dog came from a reputable "rescue", I just feel love toward him and gratitude towards the people who did all the work, often at their own expense.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Several of the posters have made excellent points. The problem is NOT the "puppy mills" or the falsely labeled "rescues" or even the "irresponsible" breeders. The problem is the ignorant people who continue to support them with their money. If there was no longer a profit being made than these businesses would vanish or at least be drastically reduced.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Miikkas mom said:


> What happens to puppies that ARE NOT sold at the pet store? I mean, the store cannot keep these little ones forever. What do they do with them if they do not get sold? Does the "breeder" take them back, or what? Anyone know?


I worked at a petstore in Houston Texas when I was in high school. Nearly all of the puppies sold at that store came from out of state via air freight. Although at the time I had no idea what a "puppy mill" was, I'm sure that was where they were coming from. When a litter arrived it went straight to the vet and was left there a day or two to make sure the puppies were healthy. After that, it never went back unless it was obviously ill. All puppies sold were AKC registered.

They had a puppy room where potential buyers could play with the puppies. This room could be locked, and we (as employees) were allowed to put puppies in there to play. It was a totally glassed in room so everyone could see them. 

If a pup didn't sell and it was outgrowing it's cage - then the owners would start discounting the pup until it finally sold. Older puppies don't sell like young ones. 

After the store was closed, we'd (the employees) would turn all of the puppies loose in the store and we'd run and slide around on the floors. The pups loved it, we did too. 

The money recognized for the sale of the puppy wasn't as profitable as the money made for all of the additional needs of the puppy sold at the store. I remember selling a chow puppy for $600 to a couple that traveled from Mexico just for this puppy. They also paid over $1000.00 in crates, food, brushes, vitamins...you name it, I sold it to them. I was their best puppy pimp. 

I worked there 2 years, and saw no abuse or misuse of the puppies. Though it now breaks my heart to see them in tiny cages, back then I didn't see that part. As all of the employees who worked there loved the pups and the owners allowed us to let them run the store (as long as they were watched). 

My dream job came crashing down on me during Easter when they brought in dyed chicks and ducklings as a special for Easter. That dye would kill numbers of those babies each night. Then that same weekend a litter of dobies came in with parvo. They pts the entire litter, but let them waste away over the weekend until the vet came in. To me, (back then) those two events were more than I could bare. That was my first experiance with parvo - and we weren't allowed to touch them. They were stored in a crate in a back office room and cried. It was the first and only job in my life that I walked out on. 

I still won't go into a petstore that pimps puppies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even if the puppies were treated like royalty, walked and trained and let to have puppy playtimes, and the whole nine yards, no reputable breeder will sell a dog to a pet store, ever. 

The local pet people that Agile mentioned are no better than a puppy mill. 

The reason is, anyone could step into a pet store, put down cash or credit card and walk out with the puppy. No one will argue with him. No one will ask if he has a fenced in area or how he will keep the puppy out of the road. No one will check a vet reference or strongly suggest training right away. No one will ask if he ever owned a dog before, and if he has, what happened to it. Chances are good at the price people pay in pet stores that it won't be going to be a bait dog, but that is about the end of your guarantees. 

Reputable breeders care about their dogs, their puppies, where they go, how they turn out, etc, etc. They do not ever sell to pet stores. 

And just because someone is willing to spend up to 2000 to get a pup from a store, it does not mean they know the first thing about dogs, or that they will treat it well. It only means they have $2000 cash or credit available.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If people are willing to pay the big bucks then they will keep producing. I so glad my mom didn't even have second thoughts on the $11,000 Border Collie puppy my brother oh so desperately wanted. We got a better dog for way less at a shelter.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Just because someone is "local" doesn't not make them a puppy mill.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, the closest breeder to me is basically a puppy mill.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think that depends on where you live, the closest one to me is a BYB.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> Even if the puppies were treated like royalty, walked and trained and let to have puppy playtimes, and the whole nine yards, no reputable breeder will sell a dog to a pet store, ever.
> 
> The local pet people that Agile mentioned are no better than a puppy mill.
> 
> ...


 
Very true. Back then, it was all about how much money the store could make. Had absolutely nothing to do with who wanted to purchase the puppy and/or for what reason. It had everything to do with revenue.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> no reputable breeder will sell a dog to a pet store, ever.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Pet stores...grrrrr.......so a local pet store sold a German "Shepard" puppy. The new loving owners decided that because the 10 week old puppy nipped at their heels when the went outside that it was aggressive.

Nice huh? Well...pet store owner was on vacation. Worker said they would not take the puppy back. Local HS would not take it as they are full. So the wonderful new owners were going to have it euthanized.

Luckily, a local trainer nabbed the puppy first and rehomed it. 

so....just because the pet store learned it's lesson...yup! 'nuther "Shepard" puppy is for sale!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think there can be two types of suppliers to pet stores though. 1 type is the nasty facilities with tens, hundreds, even thousands of dogs living in horrid conditions specifically supply pet stores. 

The other type is the local person who has a pet or two and allowed them to breed, either because he did not care whether his bitch got pregnant, or because he wanted her to, either to sell the pups, or to let her experience motherhood, or a half dozen equally stupid reasons to breed. 

Round about week four when the dam is less excited about cleaning up after them, and they need more room and work than the guy wants to provide, he starts thinking about how he will ever sell them, and considers his options. The local pound will not take them without the bitch at this point. He really does not want to euthanize them. And his buddy mentions asking the pet store.

The pet store tells him if he waits until they are five or six weeks old, they will take the whole litter for 100-200 dollars, or $50/ puppy. The guy agrees. 

He is no better than a puppy mill, because he doesn't care about the puppies and where they will end up. But he is not in the business of producing puppies for pet stores. He might do it again in six months though.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm with gsdraven on this. In what crazy world do you BUY a dog from a dog auction (which is where puppy millers sell their dogs) and then resell them for $1000 as a 'rescue'?
> 
> People just need to educate themselves on where they SHOULD buy a dog.
> 
> AND SPAY/NEUTER THEIR PETS!!!


 Some of these rescues are actually paying more than you'd think they would for the dogs at the auctions. There is a BMD rescue that exclusively gets their dogs from auctions and regularly pays $500 or so for them. They have a $1000+ adoption fee, even for old dogs and dogs with health issues. The all breed rescue I mentioned used to be a "regular" rescue until they started going to auctions.

It is IMO rather bizarre but it's something that seems to be increasing in popularity. Instead of offering the public dogs that were strays or surrendered by their owners, these rescues are offering the public what they want: purebreds, purposely bred mixed, puppies, etc. Like I said, they are becoming brokers for the commercial breeders. 



GSDElsa said:


> Just because someone is "local" doesn't not make them a puppy mill.


 The pet store near me gets puppies from local pet people. As in people who bred their pet dog and have puppies to sell. What many would call a "BYB". Not a commercial breeder or so-called "puppy mill".


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

W.Oliver said:


> My professional opinion as an accountant is to look at the organization's legal structure. This is not an absolute, but a good indicator of the strategy or spirit behind the organization. You can typically access this type of information from your state's business registry.
> 
> What you'd like to see is the organization in question is registered as a 503(c) or non-profit organization, and more likely a legitimate rescue organization.
> 
> ...


Great advice Wayne but do you mean registered as a 501(c)3? You should be able to look up anyone registered as a 501(c)3 online here ---> Search for Charities, Online Version of Publication 78 



lhczth said:


> Several of the posters have made excellent points. The problem is NOT the "puppy mills" or the falsely labeled "rescues" or even the "irresponsible" breeders. The problem is the ignorant people who continue to support them with their money. If there was no longer a profit being made than these businesses would vanish or at least be drastically reduced.


:thumbup: I couldn't agree with that more.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the paperwork is important too. When I pull GSDs from the next county over for a rescue I have to have papers or papers faxed over. I can't just say it's a rescue case and take the dog.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Besides the link that Vinnie gave to check on the 501(c)(3) tax status each non-profit must be registered with their own state. So check both places.

Did you know that with a 501(c)(3) you can also request a copy of their By-Laws, their Articles of Incorporation, a copy of their original application to the IRS and their past 3 years of tax forms? (They can charge a fee per page and of course the cost of mailing for hardcopies.) Most 501s are now giving links on their websites to make searches easier and cheaper as someone interested can print their own copies.


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