# Your thoughts ? Vom Amwolf breeder



## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

*What are your thoughts or experiences with Vom Amwolf ? She is a workingline DDR/Czech breeder. Her dogs are also features on the show Chicago PD. https://vomamwolf.weebly.com/

I'm in the process of getting a puppy from her for Personal protection. Has anyone gotten a dog from her or know someone ? 

Just wondering, I really love this breeder. :grin2:

Thank you !*


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

If you plan to have a guaranteed PP dog, I would recommend an actual adult versus a puppy. No guarantee with pups. 

Don’t know her personally, but I follow her on Instagram, and she seems very, very into her dogs. Trains them all, dedicated to producing healthy dogs, etc. I’ve seen some low energy and some high energy. 

Personally I think if you want an actual personal protection dog, a puppy is a bad choice. But that’s dependent on if you’re looking at a dog that’s just going to bark and be a deterrent vs a fully trained, potentially liable protection dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Femfa said:


> If you plan to have a guaranteed PP dog, I would recommend an actual adult versus a puppy. No guarantee with pups.
> 
> Don’t know her personally, but I follow her on Instagram, and she seems very, very into her dogs. Trains them all, dedicated to producing healthy dogs, etc. I’ve seen some low energy and some high energy.
> 
> Personally I think if you want an actual personal protection dog, a puppy is a bad choice. But that’s dependent on if you’re looking at a dog that’s just going to bark and be a deterrent vs a fully trained, potentially liable protection dog.


Beautiful dogs! On their website I see that none of their breeding stock has any titles on them. So I'm curious, what does she train them for?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

She trains them in IPO. Has lots of videos of her training. Not sure if they’re titled or not though


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Femfa said:


> *Personally I think if you want an actual personal protection dog, a puppy is a bad choice*


This 100x. All puppies are a crapshoot even from the best litters. If you want a legitimate protection dog buy one already trained or at the very least a young green dog who's showing the potential to do what you want.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Femfa said:


> She trains them in IPO. Has lots of videos of her training. Not sure if they’re titled or not though


Not yet. Her female jezabel tore her acl so she is not pursuing a title for her.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I actually like her breedings. They have genetic underpinnings of DDR dogs, but they have enough genetic diversity( especially from strong Czech lines) to not be pigeonholed. The Czech lines in sire are known for fantastic working ability, but should have good hip compensation....the mating to these DDR lines provides this. I agree getting a PP dog from pup is more difficult than young adult, unless maybe if you have pick of litter AND know the lines and KNOW what you are looking at in the pups.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm a recent college grad, so buying a PP dog is way out of the question hahaha they run for $15,000+. I want a puppy so I can raise and bond with it. I talked to her about wanting to do dog sports and bite work with the puppy I buy from her. 

She recommended a puppy from Avella bred to Jedi ze stribrneho kamene. They were supposed to breed soon. 

I just recently graduated and looking to switch careers, so I told her I will have to wait about a year or two now before I can buy one. 

I plan on doing PP dog with the puppy, SAR, hiking, swimming, bikejoring, many hours of ball, cool tricks. Yes, I know you can't exercise puppies to much until their joints set ( around age of 2). I'm looking around in the area for PP dog trainers because I know you have to start teaching the puppy to love to bite. I want to get the puppy to a trainer ASAP so they can help me with the early training of flirt pole, biting towels and getting the puppy ready as in grows. CT K9 Service is in the next town over from me. I know they do training there for LE, Navy SEALS and PPD. 

I also recently heard of Timber Ridge Farm up in Maine. She has some VERY high drive dogs. Timber Ridge Farm


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

You won’t be able to do PP and SAR, I hate to break it to you. SAR is a 100% time commitment with an insane amount of volunteer hours put in just to get started. By personal protection do you mean IPO? Or actual personal protection? Because I don’t think you can have a PP trained dog do SAR either. Someone can correct me on this. 

As for teaching to love to bite... hahaha nope. GSDs come like that. It’s more about telling them what is or isn’t okay to bite, and from there it’s genetics and a touch of training.


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## kekipi (Oct 31, 2016)

Femfa said:


> You won’t be able to do PP and SAR, I hate to break it to you. SAR is a 100% time commitment with an insane amount of volunteer hours put in just to get started. By personal protection do you mean IPO? Or actual personal protection? Because I don’t think you can have a PP trained dog do SAR either. Someone can correct me on this.


My understanding is that, when talking about ipo and SAR, it's dependent on jurisdiction about whether it's legal to do both. Some jurisdictions have laws against dogs who have any training in bite work doing SAR. Even in the areas that don't have laws about it, each team may still have it's own rules and regulations about whether they would accept a dog that has been or is currently involved in ipo. Some teams may not want to worry about possible liability or bad optics should anything ever go wrong and the dog has a history of bite work.

For a PP dog though all bets are off. I'm guessing most teams wouldn't touch it, even teams that might allow an ipo dog. There's a difference between a dog being trained to bite a suit vs. actual people. In addition, I'm not sure why someone would want a PP dog that would also be a good SAR fit. SAR dogs really shouldn't have the level of natural suspicion or civility (imo) that I imagine is needed for a true PP dog. What happens when the PP dog is out with its handler on a SAR mission and an unknown SAR tech from a different team wearing funny clothing and a face mask startles them in the woods at night? What happens if the handler needs medical attention while on a mission and the PP dog decides they don't want any of the strange EMTs to get near their person? Ideally a well trained PP dog wouldn't aggress unless directed by the handler, but is that a risk that someone should take? Especially with GSDs, who are already independent and will sometimes decide that their evaluation of a situation is more accurate than their human's....


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

cezcal20 said:


> I'm a recent college grad, so buying a PP dog is way out of the question hahaha they run for $15,000+. I want a puppy so I can raise and bond with it. I talked to her about wanting to do dog sports and bite work with the puppy I buy from her.
> 
> She recommended a puppy from Avella bred to Jedi ze stribrneho kamene. They were supposed to breed soon.
> 
> ...


I get the impression you have been doing a lot of Internet research. That is good.

Now, the next step is to go out there and talk to a lot of people with different perspectives. Since you are one or 2 years away from getting a puppy, now is a good time to do it. You also show some willingness to do some driving.

Attend a training session of an IPO club. The nice thing about New England is driving distances are closer than out in the West for example so clubs are bunched closer together. Attend a SAR team's training session. Talk to people who do not have any incentive to sell you a dog and are just enjoying their dogs in the same types of activities you foresee yourself doing. There is really no industry definition of what a PPD dog is and there are a lot of characters in that industry so it would also be worth your while to talk to different people about it in the IPO clubs especially ones who are not in a position to sell you something. Since you really love dogs but don't have one right now, it is fun to visit and just watch good GSDs being trained. There's so much more than Internet research.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jedi is an awesome dog.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your input  

I've done research online , looking at different breeders. I also wrote LONG emails to breeders of what I'm looking for and what I plan on doing with the puppy. Every one of them said I would be a perfect fit. I also follow alot of workingline gsd's on instagram and have asked them where they go their dogs from. Looked at their breeders. I watch their videos and what they do with their dogs. 

I would LOVE to go and watch training session !!! I've watched countless videos on youtube from different personal protection trainer. Ive' read the book "Team dog" by Navy SEAL Mike Ritland , who trains dog for the military , border patrol and PD. Great book ! 

I would like the puppy for Personal protection and do SAR just for fun only with my trainer, just something to challenge the mind of the dog. They need different challenges and mental stimulation. If it ever comes in handy one day, well that cool but its supposed to be just for fun. Along with swimming, hiking, chuck it ball, bikejoring for exercise .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cezcal20 said:


> Thank you everyone for your input
> 
> I've done research online , looking at different breeders. I also wrote LONG emails to breeders of what I'm looking for and what I plan on doing with the puppy. Every one of them said I would be a perfect fit. I also follow alot of workingline gsd's on instagram and have asked them where they go their dogs from. Looked at their breeders. I watch their videos and what they do with their dogs.
> 
> ...


Again - as stated - SAR is not a "fun activity" - it takes, if anything, more dedication, time, investment than IPO!!! I have several friends in SAR - they are out for hours and hours in all weather on a search - Iko has regularly had to do searches where he WORKS in drive for FOUR HOURS solid! In the rain - it does not matter - oftne someone's life depends on these people searching...the really sucessful search dog has to have insane hunt drive to do this.....and very very few groups want a PP or IPO dog out there because of liability.....

You have plenty of time - go volunteer with a real group - be the "lost person" for them.....learn about the skills they have to acquire - even to ham radio licenses and mapping (not sure what that is, but I know my one friend has had to take classes)....

Everyone has a puppy that will suit you.....that is the nature of the competitiveness of selling puppies.....but few really understand what you need for SAR.....I did one litter with the above SAR dog....I LOVE the pups....I have even thought about breeding Kira to Iko....but actually - I would need some heavy duty experienced people if they were ANYWHERE NEAR what Lucca and L'Sabre are.....too much for most people looking

Lee


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Of course on paper, this all sounds wonderful and I definitely don’t want to put a damper on your enthusiasm... but please do spend time here talking to gsd owners and traveling to watch dogs in person - it’s all very different than Instagram and e mail communications.

Your goals sound rather ambitious, and again, I only say this to put things in perspective.

PPD alone can be “enough” (these dogs are not common amongst your average civilian first time gsd owner, so please do more research on what this actually means)
SAR along can be “enough” ( SAR for fun is not a common expression - it’s a serious and expensive venture. Perhaps tracking or nosework classes would be up your alley?)
An active lifestyle of hiking/swimming/etc can also be “enough” as can regular and continuous training classes.

I’ve yet to meet a dog doing all of the above... not to mention, with a young, new to breed, full time job I presume(?), single (again, just an assumption) owner.

Get your pup, focus on proper socialization and Foundation training... your hands will be full, learn as you go, have fun and let your individual pup dictate what it needs and where it may excel


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

A few people in my club do SAR and IPO. High drive dogs, yet they seem to know the difference between a SAR victim and a guy in a bite suit. HMMM!
However, SAR is not a part time hobby that you do just for fun. There are numerous "nose work, barn hunts, etc.." things to do for fun that involve the dogs nose. 
I agree with others go visit clubs, IPO, SAR, I don't know if PP trainer will let you sit around and watch if he isn't training your dog or not. I initially thought SAR then PP for my female but after actually going to visit all venues I decided on IPO. I couldn't be happier. 
Maybe if I were retired and had an exuberant amount of free time and loved keeping training logs. I may have chosen SAR. IPO is bad enough. I can't believe the time spent both training the dogs plus training yourself, all the certifications plus all the training logs that goes with SAR. WOW!! 
You guys have my respect.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> A few people in my club do SAR and IPO. High drive dogs, yet they seem to know the difference between a SAR victim and a guy in a bite suit. HMMM!


The issue is not solely whether or not the dog can tell the difference, it’s about liability... even an accidental tooth scrape can be presented differently for a dog with a History in bitework. Don’t forget we live in a country where mc Donald’s gets sued for selling hot coffee if you spill it on your lap.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Fodder said:


> Don?t forget we live in a country where mc Donald?s gets sued for selling hot coffee if you spill it on your lap.


 Lol, yeah, there is that. My IPO TD is also the TD of the SAR group. She is one of the few people that I trust 100% what she says pertaining to dogs. If she tells me that a dog is capable of doing both, which her own dogs have for years. Then I trust her. For clarity, I am sure that not every IPO dog is gonna make the cut. Just like not every SAR dog is gonna be an IPO dog.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

Fodder said:


> Of course on paper, this all sounds wonderful and I definitely don’t want to put a damper on your enthusiasm... but please do spend time here talking to gsd owners and traveling to watch dogs in person - it’s all very different than Instagram and e mail communications.
> 
> Your goals sound rather ambitious, and again, I only say this to put things in perspective.
> 
> ...



I would love to meet with people and get to know more about the workingline type. I will look up clubs in my area and see if I can attend any of them. 

Okay since a majority of you say SAR is out of the question, I will do nose work with him. I do still want to stick with PPD and if the trainer says he isn't suited for that and more suited for sport work then I will do that instead. I've seen a few dogs that are multipurpose dogs and I thought you could do both scent work and bite work with them. 

Here is my introduction that I guess not many people read __________________________________

Hello everyone !! 

I'm a recent college graduate from CT. I have been researching workingline breeder's all throughout my college years. Now that I am finally graduated , I'm in the process of looking for a new career. Once I get my career settled and work schedule settled, I will be in the clear to get a puppy. I'm getting a workingline puppy for personal protection from Vom Amwolf. I love her dogs and have talked with the breeder a few times about what I'm looking for. I plan on doing personal protection work, ( Not SAR anymore) swimming, hiking, bikejoring and many hours outside playing ball. I'm so excited to finally get a GSD. I've always wanted one !! 
Growing up we have Golden retrievers, Labradors. When I was in high school we got our first Greater Swiss Mountain Dog ( Cousin breed to the Bernese Mountain dog, large 100lbs-140lbs) and we named her Layla. My brother gave her to me to take care of and we were the best of friends. We went hiking almost everyday for hours together. We went to the parks to play and socialize. She was a once in a life time kinda dog. She was put down this summer in July, 1 day before her 10th birthday. She died of organ cancer and internally bleeding to death, so we decided to put her down before it caused her pain. One of the hardest thing my family had to do. I also bought my first personal dog when I was 19 ( many years ago now). She was only 4 months old at the time and was being abused off the street. I named her Bree and she is a 45lbs brindle Pit Bull. Ive had her ever since and she is now a normal dog. She came with many behavioral problems from being abused. Bree will be turning 8 this March !! wow how time flys by hahaha She is a great dog and Loved her sister Layla. She was so depressed when Layla had to be put down. Bree's best friend to play with is my best friend's Siberian Husky named Anya. Bree is a high prey drive Pit Bull that will chase a toy in the water for HOURS if I let her or chase squirrels up trees for hours. 
I've had my own dog walking and dog hiking business throughout college. I hike a pack of dogs for three hours mon-wed-fridays. I've got to work with many problem dogs and still was able to get the pack to hike together. 
__________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, I'm looking for a new career at the moment. That is why I'm waiting , so I know my work schedule and see if I can fit this type of dog into my life. I know they take alot of hard work and passion. Again , yes I'm single. Don't plan on being with anyone any time soon. 

I do have experience with the breed GSD. One of my clients dog is from Von Mitternacht ( This particular female was a imported west german show line) and was trained in SOME personal protection work. The dogs owner didn't bring the dog back to the breeder for more training like she was supposed to do and the dog doesn't get the exercise it needs. I do take care of the dog frequently but not frequently enough for it to get exercise every day. I take her for long hours of hikes, swimming and fetching. I tire her out good haha. 

The second gsd I have worked with is Nita from CT K9 service. That breeder is known to breed workingline dogs for the Navy SEALS, PD and Border patrol. That dog Nita has a HUGE drive and alot higher energy than the Von Mitternacht dog. 


Thank you for everyone's help


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

The only Schutzhund club in CT I can find is in Pomfret CT ? Is that right ?

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/events-new/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's the only USCA club. You could look up DVG clubs too.

That's a good club. There are a lot in Mass that might be within driving distance for you.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> That's the only USCA club. You could look up DVG clubs too.
> 
> That's a good club. There are a lot in Mass that might be within driving distance for you.


Couldn't find any DVG clubs in CT.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Contact Ivana and Don. They are very welcoming. Ivana is the best.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> Lol, yeah, there is that. My IPO TD is also the TD of the SAR group. She is one of the few people that I trust 100% what she says pertaining to dogs. If she tells me that a dog is capable of doing both, which her own dogs have for years. Then I trust her. For clarity, I am sure that not every IPO dog is gonna make the cut. Just like not every SAR dog is gonna be an IPO dog.


My question: is this person superhuman that she has time to train IPO and SAR both?? Because neither pay, unless I am mistaken? So one would also have to have a jobby job


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cezcal20 said:


> Thank you everyone for your input
> 
> I've done research online , looking at different breeders. I also wrote LONG emails to breeders of what I'm looking for and what I plan on doing with the puppy. Every one of them said I would be a perfect fit. I also follow alot of workingline gsd's on instagram and have asked them where they go their dogs from. Looked at their breeders. I watch their videos and what they do with their dogs.
> 
> ...


You would probably be happy doing AKC tracking. It's a sport you do for fun. Probably more like what you were thinking of when you said this about SAR.

Though, I have "played" SAR with a dog, it used to be a thing me and my kids did for fun with my old girl. They would hide and she would find them. She did air scent and not track. Basically hide and seek but with a dog (I went with her to search, did not know where they were). she loved this game, we all had fun with it, and bonus I later could threaten them if they snuck out of the house to go to a bonfire party as teenagers the dog could find them (maybe not..but I don't think they were sure so it was a fun threat)

Anybody could play a game like that as long as you understand...you are just playing...you and your dog aren't prepared to save someone's life.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A suggestion....why don’t you strive to learn some bitework training and or some SAR if opportunity presents itself. There are many bitework sports from IPO to Ring to SDA to Mondio to just plain bitework training. You will learn a lot...PPD often has a negative connotation in dog world. Very few people that have opinions on it are speaking from experience, but by learning bitework in one of these venues you get a good education. Furthermore, your dog will get proper foundation in obedience which is a vital prerequisite to doing bitework unless you are advanced or a trainer. So go out and observe clubs and join one when you get your dog and learn proper obedience/bitework foundation work before pursuing the other interests.
PPD requires right dog and excellent trainers/decoys.....once you understand dog world better and have right dog it may be something you can pursue, but it is way down road ,imo.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Another possibility is the RH title offered by USCA. It is the international SAR test. However, it is extremely difficult to find a club willing to train for it because of the time required and a general lack of interest by members. DVG has recently introduced a much watered down version of a SAR title that would not pass muster for SAR teams, but is another possibility. Again, general lack of interest by clubs in adding this title may make it difficult/impossible to get in the necessary training. The RH title requirements are spelled out in the online rule book at USCA--they are daunting, but will provide a very detailed description of the work involved. AKC tracking is a fun activity and is based on SAR style trailing. It also requires a fair amount of time and effort, but nothing compared to what is expected of active SAR team members.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My question: is this person superhuman that she has time to train IPO and SAR both?? Because neither pay, unless I am mistaken? So one would also have to have a jobby job


 Dogs definitely aren't a hobby for her. She also has a boarding kennel, is on the fire Dept., and occasionally has to travel to do seminars. Out of the two SAR does take up most of her time and IPO is more of a hobby for her.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

So I looked at another thread back from 2010. They were asking how much schutzhund cost. From what I gathered from the post is you become a member of a club. They have due fees ( ranges from $100-$1,000 yearly fee) and/or you also pay for a helper ( $25-$100) per session depending on what your initial yearly due fee was, every club cost and fees are different. They also meet up a few times per week for training. Also travel expenses and equipment. What equipment will my dog need ? 

I can't seem to find the answers anywhere regarding how much it will cost for Personal protection training. How often do you train ? What are the fees ? Any one have a general answer or estimate ? 

Thank you for all the help everyone !


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You need to talk to the individual club on prices. You can not guage what Quinebaug charges based off a different club who may have to pay a helper to come in instead of having one in the club.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

If you REALLY want to work a lot with a dog, spend hours a day training bonding etc- may I ask what your career choice is? I ask because I am 47 and if I had a time machine and could go back to applying to college and choosing a career- I'd be a K9 handler about to retire now lol Maybe you have a passion you could follow?


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> You need to talk to the individual club on prices. You can not guage what Quinebaug charges based off a different club who may have to pay a helper to come in instead of having one in the club.


@OP: If you are a relatively young able bodied person, you might also consider learning to become a helper yourself. Then your club cost can be zero aside from purchasing your own protective clothing. Clubs can pay for the sleeves, and bite suits if they use them. If you become good at it, you might even earn extra income going to different clubs or doing private training.


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

Shepdad said:


> @OP: If you are a relatively young able bodied person, you might also consider learning to become a helper yourself. Then your club cost can be zero aside from purchasing your own protective clothing. Clubs can pay for the sleeves, and bite suits if they use them. If you become good at it, you might even earn extra income going to different clubs or doing private training.


They would want a 120lbs 5'3" female for a helper in a bite suit ? I would love to !! But not sure if they would want me for it. I did play rugby , so I can take a hit with no pads but would defiantly want a bite suit for those fangs hahaha If I do decide to do Schutzhund instead, is there a specific website that people buy their equipment from that they trust ?


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

CometDog said:


> If you REALLY want to work a lot with a dog, spend hours a day training bonding etc- may I ask what your career choice is? I ask because I am 47 and if I had a time machine and could go back to applying to college and choosing a career- I'd be a K9 handler about to retire now lol Maybe you have a passion you could follow?


Dogs have always been my passion. I would like to be a K9 handler/trainer but you have to know people to become one. I asked around for advice and no one really wants to give out their secret about how they became a trainer. Not sure what my career will be just yet. Like I said before, Ive had my own business with dog walking and hiking for a while. I also have been working at horse barns as a barn hand for a few years as well but you don't make good money in that kinda work. 

If I could go back in time, I would change a few things as well but here I am


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The secret is you train. And you train and you train. You go to seminars, you find a mentor, you learn and you train.....many dogs. There is no secret. Just a lot of work.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

cezcal20 said:


> They would want a 120lbs 5'3" female for a helper in a bite suit ? I would love to !!


 Very possibly - Yes! Depends on the place.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@cezcal20

Map of IPO clubs. There are 2 in CT. I forgot about Ronny. 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/v...33&hl=en&z=8&mid=16ZQxsD-mj939hJW9y82DrziNS5U


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## cezcal20 (Mar 19, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> @cezcal20
> 
> Map of IPO clubs. There are 2 in CT. I forgot about Ronny.
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/v...33&hl=en&z=8&mid=16ZQxsD-mj939hJW9y82DrziNS5U


Thank you !!


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## Sweet Stella (Feb 7, 2018)

Just wanted to add I follow Vom Amwolf on Instagram and think those dogs are smoking! Did you end up getting a pup from her?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is a link to a video of a top IGP handler and trainer about what is required of a top protection dog.


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