# Weaning the E-collar; need some input



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Nice progress in no-more-chasing-wild life. She stays with me or returns to me (off leash) as soon as she spots a critter, whether it is a deer, squirrel, bird, cat or snake, even within close range. I have never given her a command during or before the stim or a reward for not chasing afterwards. I just wanted to stay out of the picture, which seems to have worked well.
Now the question I have is how to wean her off the E-collar. Letting her wear it for a while longer and have the remote still ready? Or how to go about it in small steps so she won't get the wrong ideas?
Looking forward to your experiences.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Well, if your dog is collar wise ... i.e. knows that you have "back up" because the collar is on, then you likely won't be able to wean successfully for a long long time!

My experience has taught me this ... Dog does awesome with the e-collar on, so let's try it without the e-collar ... dog does great for a couple of days .. human gets relaxed about the behaviour ... dog does the behaviour, human is too late in correction / interruption / redirection ... dog has just completed the unwanted behaviour you worked so hard to stop by using the e-collar. 

What does the human do? Slap the e-collar back on and go back to basics 

I'm not saying it can't be done ... I'm saying it probably can ... but with TONS and TONS of work!!!! And that would be on YOUR part! LOL If you can do it, let me know! I love to read about success stories, and that would be an awesome one!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The problem is to know if she is "collar-wise" or not. How do you know without trying without the collar, right? 
After thinking more about it I am planning on pairing her ignoring of wild life (still the E collar in use) with a toy so she'll learn to get a toy in the presence of wild life, while I have the back up of the stim. Before the E collar, nothing would motivate her not to chase but after the association with wildlife has changed she should have more focus on toys. And it may make her less prone to get collar wise. Then wean her off the E collar but continue with toys for a long, long time.
Thoughts anyone?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

well.. Dogtra makes a "dummy" e collar.

What does that say?

My dogs are definitely collar wise.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

It is my understanding that the dog learns the behavior which was taught/reinforced with the ecollar to the degree that the ecollar is of no consequence or use any longer. If the dog fails at any level of proofing via verbal or nonverbal signal than the obedience training is incomplete and needs to be continued. Your situation with chasing animals is most likely a more involved process than simple obedience but it all stems from establishing bullet proof basic obedience....impulse control can be a real challenge as you well know. To create a controlled environment to proof your dog in would be a real luxury.....deer runs by on cue in an area where you can contain the dog if it fails, probably isn't likely. I might start by long lining the dog on a flat collar and go find some wildlife....if the dog doesn't yield to your command ( or stop pursuit/ no command in your situation) before hitting the end of the line....it's back to the drawing board.

SuperG


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

I think e-collars need to follow the Smartphone industry. Smaller/Thinner is better. haha. 

Wean the collar, not the dog. Any engineers anywhere? There is a demand I believe.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Why wean the dog off the collar? Have it on for insurance purposes. I have naked dogs because I compete with them where I can't have collars. Therefore I show them I can still enforce my will without them. You don't need to score points anywhere. Keep the collar on.

I will drop this hint though. A dog becomes cost wise when the only way you enforce the behavior you want is with the collar and the dog has been shown pictures of being able to get away with what it wants when the collar is not present. So there are two factors at play. You can't make it happen without the collar and the dog has been shown that this is the case.


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## KPK (Jan 28, 2015)

I believe if you use the collar in a negative way they can most definatly become collar wise. i.e. If a dog misbehaves in some way and you grab the collar and place it on him to punish then begin to stimulate for that specific behavior. Similiar to someone grabbing a newspaper and smacking the dog over the snout everytime a dog does an unwanted behavior. The dog will relate the newspaper, E-collar, or any positive punishment to correct that negative behavior. When you place the collar on the dog or grab the newspaper the dog will become nervous anticipating negative things coming their way.

The collar gives the advantage of not changing your body language or tone to apply the stim to communicate with the animal.The E-collar is just another way to communicate to the dog. You could use the collar the same way as a clicker and the dog would not no anything different.If you conditioned the dog that a treat was coming their way after a low level stim,the same as a clicker, you could use this tool as a "bridge" that could be used silently and at great distances.

If you believe the dog is collar wise then place it on the dog, without turning it on, and go about your business,walk,hike, or training. I am pretty confident if you take the dog around a high enough distractions over time you will find out the dog is not wise to the collar. If the dog was collar wise he would not test the limits anymore and never need another stim. 

I do not believe the dog ever needs to be weened off of the collar. You never no when you might run into a new distraction that catches your dogs interest and he tries to blow you off. Training is never ending and will always require conditioning.It does not matter what tool you are using for training clicker,treats,toy drive,choke,prong,E-collar,leash or combination of any. Conditon the dog to a high level so that when the times the tool is not able to be used, such as certification of a sport, the dog will perform with a higher level of competence.

Think of the tool as a manager of any succesfull business or workplace. Now if that same manager was still around during work hours however stopped enforcing punishment for negative behavior from employees. If employees were able to now take off random days or drop production without being disciplined. After time the business would start to fall apart and production would decrease.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

WesS said:


> I think e-collars need to follow the Smartphone industry. Smaller/Thinner is better. haha.
> 
> Wean the collar, not the dog. Any engineers anywhere? There is a demand I believe.


Yes seriously! Their design seems so unnecessarily clunky to me.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

KPK said:


> I believe if you use the collar in a negative way they can most definatly become collar wise. i.e. If a dog misbehaves in some way and you grab the collar and place it on him to punish then begin to stimulate for that specific behavior. Similiar to someone grabbing a newspaper and smacking the dog over the snout everytime a dog does an unwanted behavior. The dog will relate the newspaper, E-collar, or any positive punishment to correct that negative behavior. When you place the collar on the dog or grab the newspaper the dog will become nervous anticipating negative things coming their way.
> 
> .


Putting an e collar on after the fact would seem to be counterproductive....I thought most everyone using an e collar would have it on the dog before a session so the correction is instant. By the time you put an e collar on a dog after undesired behavior...one has missed the teachable moment by a huge margin...probably does no good whatsoever.

Don't know if there is any value in what I did but....whenever I have the e collar on the dog, I use a specific flat collar which is only used with the e collar. My hopes were, if the dog does get e collar wise, it might still make a connection to the particular flat collar as well, so all I would need is the flat collar to keep the dog thinking.....haven't crossed that bridge yet, however.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Today first trail walk with the E collar and no hunting urges. She is happy to have the collar put on so she is not associating it with the stims. (she wore it for two weeks before I ever used it) I had to remind her once with a stim when a little squirrel tempted her by crossing the trail up close and I saw her muscles tense up. I now reward her when she sees something and returns to me freely, either with a toy or treat. It is exciting to see the progress. I find the E collar a huge responsibility to do it right, hence my questions to you and I thank you all for helping me get to this point with her.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

With my dogs I've adjusted my methods and gotten input from others (thanks Bailiff) and adjusted my training accordingly. The way I train, I want my dogs responding to my voice first, e-collar is just a means to re-enforce (correction) if needed. 

Because I always have my voice. The e-collar may fail, and voice is much quicker than pressing a button, especially with multiple dogs. I want my dogs responding to "here" and understanding "no" in any situation. Not just wildlife. I also train to respond to a whistle and the beep on the collar, but my voice command "here" is number one priority when it comes to reliability. 

I also train with corrections without using the e-collar to try to limit dependence. I could go on a training field without e-collars, but I would not trust my dogs completely not to chase a porcupine when we are running in the woods without, so I am not planning on weaning dogs off any time soon. They are young, full of vigor, and it's not worth the risk. It's also really hard to set dogs up to succeed if you are dealing with unpredictable wildlife. I know I can not physically hold back even my smallest dog (58 lbs) on a long line if she's built up momentum. With an e-collar I can. 

At this point my voice is usually enough, but I am not going to risk it or risk losing the reliability I've worked so hard for. The one most bothered by the collars is me (a pain to charge every day and they look ugly) but the dogs couldn't care less. With the collars they get freedom to run and that makes them and me very happy. Plenty of hunting dogs never lose the e-collar. 

But, the main point I'm making is I've focused on the dogs responding instantly to my voice versus depending on the collars for environmental corrections. This is what worked best for me, but this is different that the training method described by the OP. My goal in future is to have voice reliability without needing e-collar backup. For sport or off leash running. It seems easier to me to transition to no e-collar using this training method, but I am relatively new to all this, so I'd defer to those with more experience.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> With my dogs I've adjusted my methods and gotten input from others (thanks Bailiff) and adjusted my training accordingly. The way I train, I want my dogs responding to my voice first, e-collar is just a means to re-enforce (correction) if needed.
> 
> Because I always have my voice. The e-collar may fail, and voice is much quicker than pressing a button, especially with multiple dogs. I want my dogs responding to "here" and understanding "no" in any situation. Not just wildlife. I also train to respond to a whistle and the beep on the collar, but my voice command "here" is number one priority when it comes to reliability.
> 
> ...


I like your approach too. The way I have done it so far allows her to focus on me after the stim. It basically breaks her focus off of wildlife so she can redirect it to me. She is super obedient otherwise. And yes, I am reaching the conclusion to use the E collar longer than I had thought of earlier. But I am happy with the results.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I am curious about the different approaches being described with the use of an e collar....wolfy dog's approach seems to be a method which creates an environmental consequence since no commands or signals are used in connection with the stim ....maybe somewhat the same as an invisible fence or snake training. Whereas, others use the e collar coupled with commands so the dog connects the dots with the handler and it's lack of desired behavior and knows where the stim is coming from. 


Is there a distinct difference and if so..are there situations where one works better than the other ?

wolfy dog, sorry to hijack the thread but in your situation if the stim represents an environmental consequence due to chasing animals rather than a consequence ( handler imposed ) for failing to comply with your commands, I wonder if one situation might offer more of a "weaning" opportunity than the other.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

SuperG said:


> wolfy dog, sorry to hijack the thread but in your situation if the stim represents an environmental consequence due to chasing animals rather than a consequence ( handler imposed ) for failing to comply with your commands, I wonder if one situation might offer more of a "weaning" opportunity than the other.
> SuperG


I think that the environmental consequences are easier to work with somehow. As long as she has focus she is 100% obedient. it is just the wildlife issue with her. Time will tell.

This is a helpful discussion.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the training is working:
In the last few days without stims:
1.Biking with Deja off leash next to me. A deer at the road side (opposite side) and she stayed with me. (I have the control ready on the bar)
2. On the trail this morning, a squirrel crossed the path and she stayed next to me.
3. During my yard work she spotted a deer, I saw her muscle twitch, I stimmed but the collar was not active but OMG she stayed put!
The deer seem to know when she is not in hunting mode as they are much calmer now she is under E-control.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

CLICK HERE for what I suggest for weaning off the Ecollar.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lou..20 days of training and not a misstep sounds consistent to me.....I need to up my expectations on my dog.....

Wolfy....yeah...good deal ! It had to make you feel good your dog didn't take off and give chase.....sounds like it's coming together.


SuperG


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

I am really glad to see a post about E-collars and no one is bashing them. I have an E-collar for my dog. We have been training with and without the collar for over a year now. I give commands with the collar. I want her to learn the command means listen or you get something you will not like. I also teach the command first with positive training and leash work. Than I use the E-collar to get my point across when in real life off leash. I do not use the E-collar to teach new things it is to reinforce what has been learned. I think if you do it that way you will see it more effective. 

We can Walk off leash with rabbits running by and she will not run for them. I do reward her by saying "GO!" That means Yes you have been good go get that rabbit. This has worked well for me. Letting them chase is the BEST reward. I don't want her to never chase anything again but I want control over when she can chase. The other day the Word "GO" Saved my other dog's life. Dogs should be allowed to chase but only when allowed to by the owner. 

Self rewarding behaviors like going after small wild animals and barking at the fence are VERY VERY hard to fix with one training method alone. With Some dogs you have to use the whole tool bag. I know I have had to use Everything I have with my Dog over the years. She is 4 now and just about perfect. 

I agree you don't want to always have the E-collar on. you want your dog to listen to you not the collar. I have gotten my dog to the point where we do not need it. She has learned the command. BUT I still bring the collar out a few times a month. It's hard to explain all here. But you can wean the dog off the collar if you do a few things. One is keep the collar on in the house NEVER zap the dog. The e-collar becomes just a collar. The other is teach the command do not just ZAP!

I used the collar to help with her HATE for the UPS man. We are still working on that. I need to work on that more with the collar. But the UPS man is not consistently at my house and I work. We will get there she has gotten better.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Just tonight I took my dog out. with the E-collar for a training session. Off leash I see the bunny she sees the bunny She stayed by myside. It was so good everything was safe so I let you "GO" she chased the bunny then there was a Young Robin on the ground She turned to get the bird I Yelled "NO!" when I saw her turn. The Bird lived and cookie came right back to me. I had her Wait as my Daughter checked on the bird. Bird was find and cooke went off to play some frisbee and run in the meadow. 

E-collars can be magic if you use them right.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Pepper311 said:


> ... then there was a Young Robin on the ground She turned to get the bird * I Yelled "NO!" when I saw her turn. * The Bird lived and * cookie came right back to me. * I had her Wait as my Daughter checked on the bird. Bird was find and cooke went off to play some frisbee and run in the meadow.
> 
> E-collars can be magic if you use them right.


I’m curious as to why you said "No" at this moment? Why not give an affirmative command, like "here, come, heel" or the like? Just a bug with me but I think that most people use "NO" too often and that it's not a clear concept to the dogs. Many of them WILL repeat the behavior if the opportunity arises and so there's little to no training effect. It's become a _ behavior interrupter _ rather than a command. I've heard people say that it's supposed to mean "Stop doing that," but it seems to me to be too general a concept for a dog. "Don't eat the poop, don't counter surf, don't lick my face, don't chew on shoes, don't ... don't ... don't ..." and soon it has no meaning.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> I’m curious as to why you said "No" at this moment? Why not give an affirmative command, like "here, come, heel" or the like? Just a bug with me but I think that most people use "NO" too often and that it's not a clear concept to the dogs. Many of them WILL repeat the behavior if the opportunity arises and so there's little to no training effect. It's become a _ behavior interrupter _ rather than a command. I've heard people say that it's supposed to mean "Stop doing that," but it seems to me to be too general a concept for a dog. "Don't eat the poop, don't counter surf, don't lick my face, don't chew on shoes, don't ... don't ... don't ..." and soon it has no meaning.


Interesting and I understand what your saying! Boxer guy and at some point 'NO" will be necessary with those guys!

But with the bird thing I read it and it made perfect sense to me. She did not need/want the dog to come but did need the dog to "Stop what you are doing,right freaking now...NO!"

In the field, I had 100 percent compliance at a distance. Rabbits were to be chased to the North the mountains and not South the Hwy. And that was done after a chase South scared the heck out of me! 

First time that had happened! Rabbits "usually" ran North! The second time it happened, it was a "NO." A "command" already trained! 

I will admit it did not work with face licking...it's hard to be taken seriously when you're giggling! And yeah not much luck with "Red Zone" Rocky (GSD) at the time! But he was still new to me!

But "NO" did work with a minor dust up between Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) and Molly (Herder dog) on a pack walk.

But I would tend to think... in the pet world realm, folks that can teach a solid 'NO," are not going to be the people seeking help from Pro's with run of the mill dog stuff??


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

OP - It's great to read the progress you are making with the e-collar! 

Ky's four, and I've been using the e-collar for the last 2.5 years. 

I made sure she was trained first in her obedience (wild life was always the hardest and the reason I got the e-collar!)

If there were no birds, squirrels, rabbits, porcupines, snakes, etc. etc. we would never have needed it!

My voice is FIRST and FOREMOST the most important "tool" that I use with her. Tonality is very important, and our dogs are not dumb! They know the difference between a quick stern COME HERE NOW (don't you DARE chase that!) and "come here" (look I have your ball!)

I used the e-collar as a back up when we went hiking. BUT, I also practiced TONS and TONS of impulse control in the backyard, and fields around my house. 

One of the games I played with her is with her jolly ball. I would put her in a down / stay beside me, throw the ball and she was not allowed to move. I would then walk about 30 feet away from the ball and call her to me (I had her on a long line for this at the beginning). If she went towards the ball, she was corrected by the line and I would reel her in. 

I would then do, sit / shake a paw / high five (or whatever), put her back in a down / stay and then I would walk over to her ball and stand beside it. I would then call her to me - she had to come to me NOT the ball. 

I would move away from the ball and tell her GO GET IT ... and she would get that ball with a frenzy! 

This helped so much with impulse control - it got to the point that when we saw wildlife on our hikes I would stop walking and she would stop and look at me for direction ... 50% of the time she got to chase it, the other 50% of the time she had to leave it. 

THIS is where the e-collar came in perfectly. I didn't use NO, I used leave it ... if she didn't leave it, she got a stim ... it took about 3-4 times before she got it. 

When I hike with her in the woods, she will always wear that e-collar - I don't care if she's 15 years old. I live in Ontario, and we have big parks with lots and lots of wildlife - that e-collar could save her life. 

While I don't go to local dog parks, a brown bear was seen at a local dog park last weekend ... I haven't been able to proof Kyleigh against a bear (don't really want to have to either!) ... but had we come across it ... the e-collar MIGHT have been the one tool that would save her life. 

In the last year and a half that she has been wearing the collar, I might have had to stim her once or twice ... otherwise, she responds beautifully to my vocal commands and we are both happy campers!

Good luck with the training, sounds like you are on the right track!


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Interesting and I understand what your saying! Boxer guy and at some point 'NO" will be necessary with those guys!
> 
> But with the bird thing I read it and it made perfect sense to me. She did not need/want the dog to come but did need the dog to "Stop what you are doing,right freaking now...NO!"
> 
> ...


Yes when your animal is about to kill a bird "NO" is what I use it makes her think fast and No is a word she knows it means stop what you are doing. When Walking by bunnies or dogs I say "leave it", When she is on someone I say"Off", when barking at the fence or getting overly excited in play I say "Enough". She knows a good amount. 

To word "No" is more of an emergency word. It means Stop what you are doing NOW!


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