# Changing foods...picky eater...big poops



## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

Ok, so I am hoping to get more responses than my last post got. I have come with differnent questions, after thinking about the problems and what I want from a food. I have started Samson on Fromm's LBP which he loved but became very itchy. So, since I love Fromm as a company, tried their Beef frittata(grain free) and the itching cleared up. Then I thought well maybe it wasn't the grains but some form of protein since LBP has many different protein sources and tried duck and sweet potata(grain inclusive) he does ok on this but has gone from loving his food from LBP to me having to add broth to coax him to eat now(or with the beef fritata). So I was looking at food choices and came across DR. Tims at first but now have started thinking that it may be a chicken intolerance that caused the very bad itching. I wanted to try a fish based food and was going to to Acana pacifica but read that the calcium/phos is not right for Samson as he is only 5 months. I can't afford Orjen 6fish. Are there any recommendations anyone has for me? Another issue is the amount of food I have to feed him with Fromms, and the size of his poops on it (they are HUGE). So basically I want a food the will appeal to my now picky eater, that not make him itch and wont need to feed him so much to make huge smelly poops. Thanks for any insight.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi!
Sent you a PM...the link can answer questions you may have.
 Kat


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Couple of thoughts.
*Why didn't you go back to the Fromm's Fritatta if he didn't itch on it and did well?
*Did you try their other "Grain Free" varieties like the "Surf n Turf"?
*Have you thought about doing a partial raw diet? Such as using The Honest Kitchen Preference base mix to which you add your own fresh meat? 7# = $54 Makes 29 pounds
A grain-free, gluten-free foundation diet for use with added raw meat, meaty bones, or cooked meat. All Natural Dog Food - Dehydrated Pet Food | The Honest Kitchen

Hmmmm, Dr. Tim's food: in the top 6 ingredients there is only one meat source which makes it grain heavy.
Contains: DL-Methionine: Which is a lab made amino acid. Per Dr. Aldrich, a pet food industry advisor: The starting materials for production of DL methionine are acrolein (a 3-carbon aldehyde) derived from propylene (a petroleum derivative), methyl mercaptan derived from methanol and various sulfur sources and hydrocyanic acid (HCN).” Studies on rats have shown an increase in cancerous tumors from ingestion.


*Canola Oil: *The Weston A. Price Foundation article quotes numerous studies of the effects of Canola oil in animals; “These studies all point in the same direction--that canola oil is definitely not healthy for the cardiovascular system. Like rapeseed oil, its predecessor, canola oil is associated with fibrotic lesions of the heart. It also causes vitamin E deficiency, undesirable changes in the blood platelets and shortened life-span in stroke-prone rats when it was the only oil in the animals' diet. Furthermore, it seems to retard growth, which is why the FDA does not allow the use of canola oil in infant formula.” Journalist David Lawrence Dewey quotes research from the University of Florida that “determined that as muh as 4.6% of all the fatty acids in unrefined canola are ‘trans’ isomers (which are somewhat like plastic) due to the refining process.”

Just something for you to consider!
Moms


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

He did stop itching but he lost his appetite. No I haven't tried their surf and turf I wanted to but he just hasn't had any interest in any of their 4star lines so far. I also would like to get a higher calorie food so he doesn't have to eat so much per day and his poops won't be so huge. Yeah even though Dr. Tims is a 5star food I kinda figured there was a reason no one raves about it. BYW he is food driven in training and is always trying to pick up any fallen food (from my youngest high chair) So I know he does enjoy food just not those 2 Ive tried on the 4 star line. Any more ideas?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lindsay1126 said:


> BYW he is food driven in training and is always trying to pick up any fallen food (from my youngest high chair) So I know he does enjoy food just not those 2 Ive tried on the 4 star line. Any more ideas?


Yep! LOT'S!
The Honest Kitchen Dehydrated Foods are my favorite (b/c it is the ONLY human grade/quality food out there) and what I use when not feeding raw.
Or you could try Acana Regionals (NON grain) or Nature's Variety Instinct (NON grain) or go back to the Fromm's with this new addition.
Get some ground chuck or ground round from the store. Put about 1/4th to 1/3rd cup in his bowl and add about 1 cup of warm water, then add the kibble and let it soak for about a half hour, mix again and serve. My guess is that she will scarf it down!
Other things you can use to "top off" is canned Mackerel or Salmon (use about 2 tablespoons) mixed like above or canned in water sardines, or a raw egg. 
Here is my recipe for a great healthy, real, training treats!
"Bone" Appetite' Samson!
*Homemade Meat Treats*

*Items needed:*
*Non Stick Fry Pan*
*Pam*
*Scissors*
*Choose one of the following meats: Round Steak, Pork Chops, Lamb Slices or Calves Liver*

1. Trim off all fat on the edges and/or in-between and if it has a bone in it, remove that too. 
Take a pair of scissors (outstanding tool for cutting meat) and cut the chosen meat into manageable pieces. If using Liver, blot dry with paper towel for easier handling after it is unfrozen. You can cook this in whole pieces. 
2. Choose a fry pan (non stick is the easiest) that will hold the amount of meat you bought, and give the pan a small drop of oil or a quick spray of Pam.
3. Heat the pan until hot and drop the pieces of meat in to the pan to sizzle. Keep your heat rather high but don’t leave the pan unattended.
4. Sprinkle on a little garlic powder or garlic salt if desired.
5. Let the meat sizzle for about a minute or two then flip over. Braise the other side (pour off the juice during cooking if there is too much). Remove from pan and place on to paper towel, blot and let cool. Note: Only braise the liver to a medium done range on both sides (don’t thoroughly cook it) otherwise it will get crumbly. 
6. Take your scissors and cut all of the meat in to strips about ¼” wide. Now take those strips and cut small pieces about the size of a ½ of a dime, (or whatever size you prefer).
7. Place small amounts into sealable snack baggies, then place those baggies into a sealable freezer baggie and place in freezer. When you need them, take out one or two baggies, place them in the frig to thaw. Of course the dogs love them frozen too, if you forget!
If you’d like a more “dehydrated” type treat: Heat your oven to 200*. Place your dime size, cut pieces on a non stick cookie sheet and place in oven until dried out, about 1 hour. 
The treats take a little time but saves a lot of $$ and the dogs go crazy for them!

Moms


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

I really liked the Acana Pacifica but read that the calcium/phos levels are too high for him (he is only 5 months old). Not sure I can afford a good dog food and dehydrated food. Wish I could though. We are trying to finish paying off all are credit card debt and once we do I want to go raw all the way but just can't make it affordable right now. My max budget is about $70 a month. That is pushing it but if I can feed less to make a big bag last a month and not have to pick up monstrous poops on our walks then it is well worth the extra $$


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Have you considered a raw diet? I had my dogs on prey model raw for over two years. Switched back to wellness CORE kibble lately, for convenience and training purposes. PMR takes a lot of work, initially, but might be your solution. It really helped us out a Lot!, and I look forward to going back to it. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

I just looked up the instinct and that looks really good and affordable. The only one I saw had a low min. calcium/ phos levels was the rabbit do you know of any others. I sent them a quick email asking their maximums too, just figured I would ask. Thanks.


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

I did try doing raw when he was little but when my husband and I decided to try to pay off our CC debt his raw diet had to be cut being it was about $150 a month but will return once we get the last bit paid off.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lindsay1126 said:


> I just looked up the instinct and that looks really good and affordable. The only one I saw had a low min. calcium/ phos levels was the rabbit do you know of any others. I sent them a quick email asking their maximums too, just figured I would ask. Thanks.


Their rabbit comes from *China *and Lamb from New Zealand. Other ingredients are US sourced.
It is "Balanced For All Life Stages" I don't think any of their varieties have 3% calcium
This quote may help.
Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs  by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll: _The absolute level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.2 Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease.2 These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess.3 Further, chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis."_


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

Interesting. I have always be told you want as close to 1:1 as you can get with calcium never going over. 1.7. Food for thought though. I really like there the raw boost lines but, they have no listing of what the ratio is at all on any of those. Hopefully they can clear that up when they return my email. I do not like that the rabbit is outsourced to china, I would rather it be here or Canada. Thanks for showing me them though. There are so many brands to choose from. I am still open to any more suggestions. Thanks.

Lindsay


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

So I was just told by my vet not to eliminate chicken or grains until he is older and that it could be just a small side product of something Fromm uses. She said that Fromm is a great food but I should try other foods with chicken and/or grains in them until I find something that he likes and doesn't cause him to itch. So I have been looking at prices and I can afford the Orijen adult or LBP if I push my limits. I have heard mixed reviews on LBP foods. My vet said as long as calcium/phos ratio was in range that it was good. So now I have Orijen LBP, Orijen adult, Acana pacifica or Natures variety instinct rabbit or their prairie LBP. What are opinions or concerns on any of these. Thanks.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lindsay1126 said:


> So I was just told by my vet not to eliminate chicken or grains until he is older and that it could be just a small side product of something Fromm uses. She said that Fromm is a great food but I should try other foods with chicken and/or grains in them until I find something that he likes and doesn't cause him to itch. So I have been looking at prices and I can afford the Orijen adult or LBP if I push my limits. I have heard mixed reviews on LBP foods. My vet said as long as calcium/phos ratio was in range that it was good. So now I have Orijen LBP, Orijen adult, Acana pacifica or Natures variety instinct rabbit or their prairie LBP. What are opinions or concerns on any of these. Thanks.


Besides the Honest Kitchen I feed when I run out of raw food, I keep a bag of Orijen in the freezer for emergencies, so out of your list, Orijen would be my first choice. All of this, of course, is IMHO and experience with helping other dogs and what works for them. The problem I see with Orijen is that is gives "Some" dogs loose stool! Thing is that you wouldn't know until you actually tried it on Samson! So I would buy a small bag.
Their sister company is Acana, so that would personally be my next choice, and then Nature's Variety. Sorry, I don't agree with your vet so I would still go with a Non Grain, just in case it is the grains that he is sensitive to. No grains in his treats either or you won't know for sure. Chicken is a toss up.....some dogs sensitive to it....some not so you'll just have to observe him to see if it bother's him. 
Don't forget that whichever food you choose, you need to wean him off of his current food on to the new food slowly so as not to cause a gut upset.
Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss in detail!
Moms


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

I am leaning towards Orijen too. How long should the transition take? How will I know if it does not mix with him or if it is the transition? Would you use bp or adult? I can't wait to start him on raw in the future, I know its the best. Could I give him a RBM occasionally just to keep his teeth nice and clean until I can do raw all the time?


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

So I went with Acana chicken & burbank potato. Though it is not grain free it is only single grain which is steel cut oats and not rice(which is what fromms uses) It was a much better price only $54 for 28.6 lbs and I get 10%off at my local store for being military. She said if it did not mix with him to bring it back and they would exchange it. How would you recommend that I switch over. I have only had to do it once and I had to cold turkey bc I didn't have very much the breeder gave me and I couldn't find it locally. I feed him 4 cups a day (2cups twice daily) so I was thinking a 1.5c of fromm and .5 cup of acana for few days and gradually move up acana while lowering fromm. I also have some pumpkin I was going to add to while doing the change. Does that sound good to everyone? Does anyone have experience with this Acana line? One of the things I love about Fromm is that there is very minimal shedding. From anyone's experience is that the same for Acana? Thanks.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes, you can give Samson RMB just for short periods at first so that he doesn't get diarrhea. 

I don't know how strong his stomach is (each dog is different) so I may start with 1/4th cup for a couple of feedings and work up if no loose stools.

Good Luck!


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

Well so far the first feeding went great! He actually gobbled up the food ( I put Acana on top) He has not pooped yet so we shall see. Thanks for everyone's help.


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