# New CZech Shepherd Purchase



## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

I have a brother who just purchased a IPO3 Czech GSD. I have owned and trained mine and have never had an issue. He is new to dogs and purchased one thinking he wouldn't need to train it. It would just be a good house companion because it had so much training. While I have some experience, I thought someone could help me with giving him advice. On a related note, while visiting with the dog the first time, it came right up and was very friendly. When the owner went into the other room, my brother said the dog kinda turned on them and started barking at them. He wasn't sure what that was about. The dog is 3 years old and just had pups 4 weeks ago. The pups were in the room and my brother thought maybe that caused the dog to change it's demeanor?

Here are his questions:

1. If a cleaning lady came over does he need to put the dog in the kennel? (Guessing the answer is always yes, is there anyway to introduce a dog to someone and then the dog will always not freak out when they just walk in?)

2. If In Laws come to town, like the question above, how long before he can trust the inlaws can walk in and out of the house freely?

3. How about babysitters? Once they are introduced, will they be good all around the house?

The breeder is bringing the dog to the house in 4 weeks after it's pups are weaned. Any input would be helpful. Knowing how dog people can be, I probably should say I always had a 6ft fence with a doggie door and and a dog pen. I never thought of these questions, because if I had a stranger coming over when I wasn't there he would be locked away in the back yard. I'm curious to know how long before you can introduce a dog to someone and then the dog doesn't consider them a threat. I also never had a dog with this much training. Is an IPO 3 dog completely safe having gone thru socialization, training, and from good bloodlines.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Oh boy. This sounds like a not so good situation. It really will come down to the nerves of the dog... and there is some indication that she can be a bit nervous... maybe it is puppies, maybe not. From the get go, with a dog trained to bite and a handler with no training, always keep the dog under control and supervised with new people... ALWAYS. No one will be able to put a time dimension to this without extensive knowledge and experience with THIS dog. Your brother is insane if he thinks he doesn't need to invest in training and work with this dog... and likely it is he that has to learn a lot. I would be very worried about someone who thinks they are buying something that once trained always trained. And absolutely not, a dog with IPO 3 is not somehow inherently safe. Lots of unknowns here and lots of opportunity for extensive liability and for things to go very wrong.

I should add what I would do. I would commit myself to investing in extensive training and work with this dog. The only way it becomes safer is if the dog and I have a great relationship and that comes with lots of work and money invested in training. I would get a commitment from the breeder that if things don't work out, he or she will take the dog back. I would ask the breeder who he/she worked with in training for IPO and I would contact that person, that club and get a lot more information about the dogs nerve strength, temperament and needs. I would go slow and not expect the dog to be an automaton but a living breathing animal that needs care and attention to detail. I would ask a lot of myself to give the dog the best opportunity to adjust to a new world without asking it to be a perfect piece of furniture. 

Ask your brother if he is really willing to work at this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would always contain a dog, no matter what titles s/he has when strangers are in the home(especially if you are not there to supervise and manage the interactions)
It has everything to do with being fair to the dog.

A 3 year old female that has an IPO3 and a litter of puppies doesn't mean her temperament is solid, nor does it mean it isn't. When there is a litter involved, of course she is in her mothering protection mode. 

Once the dog has settled into your brothers home(6 month timeframe usually shows the dog for who they are) and he truly knows her, then those questions may be answered, but I would still crate the dog when strangers are in the house if the dog shows any behaviors that could set her up to fail.

IPO is a sport, it is situational and the training doesn't mean the dog is going to be good to go in all situations, your brother needs to learn how to keep the training up, and his handling skills should be addressed.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

I agree with both of you. When I was doing Schutzhund training, I always admired the people who earned the Sch 3 title. The dogs were always complete gentlemen and loved their owners. I also know how much time the handler and dog spent together to make this a reality. It was a daily lifestyle for most of them. I'm wondering how can you determine the temperament of a high powered dog without truly testing it? Meaning this breeder is out in a small town without a lot of people. I would be interested can I take it to Lowe's, how about unleashed at my local dog park, or in the back yard of my families house with their golden retriever? 

Is it very normal to get a money back guarantee if this thing turns into a monster? How long would a guarantee normally be? I'm sure the dog isn't a monster, but how long of a guarantee in case my brother turns him into a monster?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Kinda like a loaded gun in a kid's bedroom.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

So the owner of this dog is selling her. My first question is why? My second question is that he is selling her to your brother knowing he has no experience and isn't requiring any training with her? 


I agree with what the others have said about learning about her, and his need to get training. I had an aunt move in with me with her Sch3 and Personal Protection Dog. My aunt did not keep up the training, ignoring when the dog ignored her. Very dangerous. I began working with her and she bonded to me. I later inherited her.


Personally, I think your brother may be getting in over his head.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Deb said:


> So the owner of this dog is selling her. My first question is why? My second question is that he is selling her to your brother knowing he has no experience and isn't requiring any training with her?
> 
> Personally, I think your brother may be getting in over his head.


I wanted to ask this as well. Not many put a bitch through all that training and trialing and then breed by 3 yrs old just to sell. Especially not knowing how the puppies are turning out. Most good breeders would keep her around at least until they can see the puppies progress, H&E prelims, ect.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Do you have a pedigree on tis dog? Where is the dog from?


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Can't talk about breeding as all my Pups were 'happy accidents' bar one who was a pup sold to me as pet quality. I had young children at the time and that pup wasn't going to win any competitions but she was an amazing family dog. (If you weren't a vet!) But in answer to your questions.
1. Cleaner - my dogs would be crated, kept away.
2. In laws, extended family. They are all 'disney' parents. Lots of treats, no rules. My dogs used to squeak with excitement when they turned up. But it was awhile before I let them be in charge when I wasn't there.
3. Babysitters - Dogs were always crated, sitters paid to look after my kids not the dog.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I would always contain a dog, no matter what titles s/he has when strangers are in the home(especially if you are not there to supervise and manage the interactions)
> It has everything to do with being fair to the dog.
> 
> A 3 year old female that has an IPO3 and a litter of puppies doesn't mean her temperament is solid, nor does it mean it isn't. When there is a litter involved, of course she is in her mothering protection mode.
> ...


Agreed. Ideally, he will get to his local IPO club and learn how to handle her properly.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> Oh boy. This sounds like a not so good situation. It really will come down to the nerves of the dog... and the here is some indication that she can be a bit nervous... maybe it is puppies, maybe not. From the get go, with a dog trained to bite and a handler with no training, always keep the dog under control and supervised with new people... ALWAYS. No one will be able to put a time dimension to this without extensive knowledge and experience with THIS dog. Your brother is insane if he thinks he doesn't need to invest in training and work with this dog... and likely it is he that has to learn a lot. I would be very worried about someone who thinks they are buying something that once trained always trained. And absolutely not, a dog with IPO 3 is not somehow inherently safe. Lots of unknowns here and lots of opportunity for extensive liability and for things to go very wrong.
> 
> I should add what I would do. I would commit myself to investing in extensive training and work with this dog. The only way it becomes safer is if the dog and I have a great relationship and that comes with lots of work and money invested in training. I would get a commitment from the breeder that if things don't work out, he or she will take the dog back. I would ask the breeder who he/she worked with in training for IPO and I would contact that person, that club and get a lot more information about the dogs nerve strength, temperament and needs. I would go slow and not expect the dog to be an automaton but a living breathing animal that needs care and attention to detail. I would ask a lot of myself to give the dog the best opportunity to adjust to a new world without asking it to be a perfect piece of furniture.
> 
> Ask your brother if he is really willing to work at this.


Outstanding advice. I'd also ask your brother why he thinks he needs an IPO III?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Another thing to consider about a Czech dog's is that they tend to be a little lower in prey drive but higher in defense. All of which suggests a need for a more experienced handler. The dog may show more sharpness than we might expect to see in a West German dog. Not ideal for a rookie.

This whole thing is much more complex than 'is an IPO dog completely safe'. The simple answer is no.

It just can't be overemphasized how important it is for your brother to get with an experienced IPO trainer.

And DutchKarin is asking exactly the right question--why are they selling her?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

is the dog truly an IPO dog? Are there papers that show this? Are there tattoos to identify the dog (ears, abdomen)? I know in some European countries they still do this.
It all sounds very strange to me.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

He thought he needed an IPO 3 dog because it would be a stable dog that would be turn key ready. He is thinking the dog would be able to be taken anywhere without any issues. His dream is to be able to take a dog off leash and go jogging, take him to the public beach and throw sticks, go into some public dog friendly restaurants and have the dog lay by his side, etc.. He isn't concerned about protection, he just wants a great family dog that is very well trained. He probably should get a golden but loves the looks of the GSD.

Another piece of history I learned last night. The breeder brought this dog over from Czech about 90 days ago. It was pregnant when he bought her. Now the dog had pups 4 weeks ago. So the breeder has only known this dog for a short period of time. I wonder what that means if anything?

In terms of paperwork, the breeder has tons of it. Going back like 8 generations in the past.

I thought a breeder selling to an inexperienced handler was questionable. However, I called 3 different breeders who had IPO3 dogs I found online and they were all very willing to sell their champ. I told them I was inexperienced and just doing some shopping looking for a great family dog. So I can't blame the breeder for trying to make a living.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> Do you have a pedigree on tis dog? Where is the dog from?


I personally haven't seen the dog or the papers. My brother says the dog was imported from Czech about 90 days ago. He also said the breeder has tons of paperwork showing the ancestory of the dog and his awards.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

zetti said:


> Agreed. Ideally, he will get to his local IPO club and learn how to handle her properly.


He lives about 3 hours away from the nearest IPO club. From my limited experience with IPO clubs, if you aren't in it to win it, they ignore you for the most part. I'm going to have him contact the club and see if they have monthly training sessions. I could see him doing that. I don't see him signing up to do the Wednesday / Weekend routine on a routine basis.

He mentioned doing some Petco advanced training, which I thought was hilarious at first. I mean any training is good I suppose, but that would be like taking a NASCAR race car to a go cart track I would think.

So if you don't have an IPO club that is somewhat convenient, are they other options or clubs to research?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The pups are only 4 weeks old? Where are they? They should be with their mother for at least another 4 weeks. If not, the situation is fishy to say the least.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> The pups are only 4 weeks old? Where are they? They should be with their mother for at least another 4 weeks. If not, the situation is fishy to say the least.



It sounds like Mom is still with the pups and won't be delivered until they're weaned. Hopefully it gives OP's brother enough time to really think this through.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> The pups are only 4 weeks old? Where are they? They should be with their mother for at least another 4 weeks. If not, the situation is fishy to say the least.


The pups are with their mother. The dog will not be available for another 4 weeks after the pups are weaned. Reading my prior posts I can see the confusion.

The breeder wanted to buy a dog to breed. So the breeder bought the dog from Czech about 90 days ago. When he bought her, he had her knocked up by some Czech champion. So when she arrived in the states she was already pregnant. Now the dog has had it's pups about 4 weeks ago. My brother was referred to this breeder by a friend this past week. My brother went and looked at the dog and bought it. Now he will take actual possession of the adult female gsd in about 4 weeks after she has weaned her pups. Hope this helps.

Guess I'll have him ask the breeder this question: Why did you buy the dog in the first place? Did you buy it to breed? Or did you buy it to sell and thought might as well get it knocked up and sell the pups to help offset the purchase of the czech dog? Or did you buy it to breed and think there is something wrong with the dog?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds sad to me. I am sorry for the dog being handled like some sort of commodity for profit it sounds like. Who else would sell this dog to a novice who is looking for a pet dog? Shame on the owner of the female dog for not selling her to someone who can handle her. It is setting up for disaster for the new owner and the dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Send me a pm. What you described does not sound as alarming as is thought by some. Maybe I can help.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

markbrick said:


> He lives about 3 hours away from the nearest IPO club. From my limited experience with IPO clubs, if you aren't in it to win it, they ignore you for the most part. I'm going to have him contact the club and see if they have monthly training sessions. I could see him doing that. I don't see him signing up to do the Wednesday / Weekend routine on a routine basis.
> 
> He mentioned doing some Petco advanced training, which I thought was hilarious at first. I mean any training is good I suppose, but that would be like taking a NASCAR race car to a go cart track I would think.
> 
> So if you don't have an IPO club that is somewhat convenient, are they other options or clubs to research?


Call the club's contact person and ask for a referral to a trainer closer to your area. He or she may know someone. Lots of IPO people think nothing of driving three hours to get to training.

Pet dog training would just confuse the daylights out of the dog. Was she trained in Czech commands?

You can also ask your IPO contact for a referral to a local trainer who trains K9s and personal protection dogs. They'll know how to handle your dog. Big caveat! Make sure you find this trainer via referral! There are a LOT of unscrupulous people calling themselves protection dog trainers! They can really screw up your dog. That's why you want input from the IPO club.

Personally, I think a three hour drive would be well worth it to have your dog evaluated by knowledgeable people. Plenty of clubs would welcome your visit for an evaluation. Nobody is going to try to "sell" you on joining. Most clubs are not all that easy to get into. 

In any case, I would contact the IPO club contact, explain the situation and ask for some help. I will be very surprised if no one wants to help you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Sounds sad to me. I am sorry for the dog being handled like some sort of commodity for profit it sounds like. Who else would sell this dog to a novice who is looking for a pet dog? Shame on the owner of the female dog for not selling her to someone who can handle her. It is setting up for disaster for the new owner and the dog.


sort of sounds like it doesn't it .
buy female, import with pups expected -- so far nothing wrong with that -- but I suspect he then goes around and sells the imported dam for as much as if not more (broker fee) AND he has the $$$ from the litter.

"He thought he needed an IPO 3 dog because it would be a stable dog that would be turn key ready"

All dogs will have a transition period. This is not a car !


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> is the dog truly an IPO dog? Are there papers that show this? Are there tattoos to identify the dog (ears, abdomen)? I know in some European countries they still do this.
> It all sounds very strange to me.


The dog should come with her scorebook.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

zetti said:


> The dog should come with her scorebook.


The dog has a tattoo and a scorebook. I thought the breeder was saying something about having the tattoo removed. No idea why that would be done. I guess at the end of this he needs to contact the St Louis IPO club and take the dog there when he actually takes delivery. So that is that. On the same note the breeder gave him three different purchase options. He said pay the full price and do whatever you want with the dog. Second pay 2/3 of the price and the breeder will split the proceeds from the next litter. Thirdly, pay 1/3 of the price and the breeder gets all the pups from the next litter. I'm sure 1/3 2/3 and full are simplified and not really accurate, but it went something like that. Not really needing a comment on this, just thought that it was interesting. Maybe all dogs kinda sell with some options like that.

I asked about the litter today that was born 30 days ago. I guess it had five pups and 3 survived. Just to give all the info I have. Thanks for all the input.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would walk away.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What is the draw to this female? Did your brother spend time looking for a well trained 'turn-key' dog? Is this a larger scale breeding operation?

Now and then breeders will rehome retired titled breeding bitches for a minimal fee that are good as far as companions go. 
If this female is a really nice producer, she should be bred again, she is very young yet. But not knowing the reason for the smaller litter, or if the whelp was difficult, so many things play into it. I'd also like to see her pedigree and that of the litter, just for more information.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

.markbrick said "
On the same note the breeder gave him three different purchase options. He said pay the full price and do whatever you want with the dog. Second pay 2/3 of the price and the breeder will split the proceeds from the next litter. Thirdly, pay 1/3 of the price and the breeder gets all the pups from the next litter. I'm sure 1/3 2/3 and full are simplified and not really accurate, but it went something like that. "

or there is the option -- give me the deposit back and you'll never see or hear of me again.

if he goes for a deal - oh boy does he have to be sharp and make sure every contingency is covered .

for example who will pay for all stud associated costs? who will whelp the litter ? 

Pay 1/3 and the seller gets ALL the pups . 

when and how often is a breeding to take place.

what if the dog dies and no litter has happened in the interim. Does the guy sue for potential lost revenue - or sue to claim the full price of the dog , since conditions of sale were not met.

sounds worse all the time.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> Send me a pm. What you described does not sound as alarming as is thought by some. Maybe I can help.


Hi Cliffson,

Tried to send a PM but I'm new to the board and it says I need to have 15 posts before doing so. Talk to you soon.

MB


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I sent you a pm.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> I would walk away.


I agree. I'd pass on this one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is your brother asking about the dog or doubting the decision ?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is sounding more fishier and fishier. I hope he hasn't made a commitment yet and walk away to save himself form disaster. What is your brother actually saying about all this?


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

*Followup - Dog Arrived.*

Dog arrived and I was able to go over after about a week of him getting used to his new family and living accomodations. The dog came right up and had no real reaction to me. Very friendly, in a GSD type of way. Meaning came up and wagged his tail and sniffed me then went back to fetching a ball in the yard. As mentioned this dog is IPO 3, but there were some things that seemed a bit different (Not in a good or bad way, just different) Dog has never walked up wood stairs, which you can tell. Dog has never been in a Petco. You could tell the automatic doors and different noises were unfamiliar to her. Just a ton of new experiences this girl is going through that IPO doesn't directly address. So I can see other posters on this thread saying you really have no idea what she might react to just because of this.

One point to mention that I'm not sure what to do. We take the dog to a big field and I'm going to show him how to track his dog. I was trained to use a harness on the dog and use hotdogs and do the usual routine. I was taught german commands and this dog is CZECH. The dog did great, but not what I would expect a dog of this caliber. Since this dog was trained and titled in Czech, there is no way I would know how she was trained. Am I saying the commands correctly? Did this dog use a lead under his legs and I'm using a harness? After the dog would lie down and identify an object I would pet, grab the object, and then give the command STOPA. The dog would do anything. I would go up an kinda give him a poke and then say STOPA and he would start moving and continue tracking.

You can imagine all the commands my brother is giving and the dog would sometimes do something and sometimes not. I would just say I have no idea what command you just gave. Kinda awkward. With that said we are going to a club trial this weekend and they have an obedience workshop where the trainer knows CZECH. 

Feel free to comment, just thought I would give some followup from a month or so ago. So far the dog is super friendly and doesn't seem timid or aggressive at all. Which we expected.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dog probably wasn't trained with hot dogs either .

how the dog recognizes and recovers and then finally stops reacting to novel stimuli is more important .

dog may not have been a house dog -- I had an import once that didn't know how to use the stairs .

she stood at the top and did one flying leap !

she learned quickly and became an expert at it .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The stair thing can be an architectural thing. We adopted a dog in Florida who had never been out of FL in his life. We lived in two different houses that didn't have stairs.

When we drove to New England with him, we stayed at my sister's house part way up. He went upstairs with everyone, happy as can be, then we got back to the stairs and he looked down a very long, steep flight of stairs and laid down on the floor and would not be moved. 

It took me a half hour to get him down. Peanut butter didn't work. I underestimated his attachment to me and training. I tried dragging him down, couldn't do it. Too big to carry. So I went to the bottom of the stairs and called him the way I recall them when I mean business, and he sort of crawled down poor guy. We had really worked hard on a bomb proof recall. He was fine with all stairs thereafter, and went up and down that same flight of stairs ten more times before we left. 

He had just never seen such a thing in his life, coming from Florida where most houses are single story


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

Sorry for the delayed response. I showed him all the responses and he said the breeder said if the dog isn't what he wanted, he would give his money back. So my brother was like "Whats the worst case scenario, the dog doesn't work out and back he goes." This isn't to say he wasn't concerned about all the comments mentioned. He was and still is. i


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> Oh boy. This sounds like a not so good situation. It really will come down to the nerves of the dog... and there is some indication that she can be a bit nervous... maybe it is puppies, maybe not. From the get go, with a dog trained to bite and a handler with no training, always keep the dog under control and supervised with new people... ALWAYS. No one will be able to put a time dimension to this without extensive knowledge and experience with THIS dog. Your brother is insane if he thinks he doesn't need to invest in training and work with this dog... and likely it is he that has to learn a lot. I would be very worried about someone who thinks they are buying something that once trained always trained. And absolutely not, a dog with IPO 3 is not somehow inherently safe. Lots of unknowns here and lots of opportunity for extensive liability and for things to go very wrong.
> 
> I should add what I would do. I would commit myself to investing in extensive training and work with this dog. The only way it becomes safer is if the dog and I have a great relationship and that comes with lots of work and money invested in training. I would get a commitment from the breeder that if things don't work out, he or she will take the dog back. I would ask the breeder who he/she worked with in training for IPO and I would contact that person, that club and get a lot more information about the dogs nerve strength, temperament and needs. I would go slow and not expect the dog to be an automaton but a living breathing animal that needs care and attention to detail. I would ask a lot of myself to give the dog the best opportunity to adjust to a new world without asking it to be a perfect piece of furniture.
> 
> Ask your brother if he is really willing to work at this.


My brothers dog can be a bit nervous sometimes too. Like if he hears someone by the door (which is to be expected I guess, I mean they are naturally protective). But also on walks like when a big garbage bag moves from the wind or a loud noise is made he will flinch and back up. I will be getting a new pup soon and my question is if the older dogs personality might rub off on the pup. If so do I need to keep them separated as much as possible?


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> My brothers dog can be a bit nervous sometimes too. Like if he hears someone by the door (which is to be expected I guess, I mean they are naturally protective). But also on walks like when a big garbage bag moves from the wind or a loud noise is made he will flinch and back up. I will be getting a new pup soon and my question is if the older dogs personality might rub off on the pup. If so do I need to keep them separated as much as possible?


I have a friend who has had wire hair terriers and gsd's two different times, same sex, both times the terrier was older and both times the gsd was an obnoxious, barky idiot. I love my friend, but I won't bring my pup around her idiot terrier so as to not learn bad behavior.

The point is I believe young dogs/puppies do learn behaviors from the pack.


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## markbrick (Jan 23, 2017)

*Bar B Que: Not so good.*

Ok so here is some more info. The dog has been around for a couple months now. When I interact with the dog I have some weird feelings. First the dog has never acted aggressive with me at all. However, if I lean down to pet the dog, it always moves away. Like he is scared or unsure. If I sit down she will come up to me and likes to be petted. Concern is why would this dog be scared? Scared dogs have always have been unpredictable in my experience. I'm thinking this dog was hit or something while being trained. Doesn't like any movement of hands. 

Last night I finally invited my brother and his family over for a bar b que. He brought his dog into my fenced in back yard and we were just hanging out. He had his dog on the leash and then I let my golden retriever and and my 8 week old Newfoundland out in the back yard. My golden went up to the gsd and the gsd lunged and came very close to getting what looked like a big bite into the dog. Then the gsd went for the pup. No one was hurt or bit, but I just kenneled my dogs and sat around thinking what the heck? The gsd didn't look scared, but looked ready to roll. The gsd had his hair on his back up and raised and was definitely going after them. 

So bottom line is no more play dates with his cousin dogs. My brother is no pack leader and didn't know what to do. He asked what he should do, and I said it's too late. I said you need to be thinking before the dog even thinks it. Training. Anyways, I was just surprised a well trained dog would be so aggressive to other dogs. Especially when not on their own turf! The dog seems very neutral to other people, but wow. Anyway to fix this or it just is the way it is?


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