# Herm sprenger - not happy....



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I examined every inch, connected it correctly. In the middle of a busy street, the collar just fell to the ground. Thank goodness she held her "stay" untill I could pick up the links and reassemble them. Was a great working tool, but there goes my confidence. It may have been the link where I last "attached/detached" her was a frickin millimeter off - but I pulled, looked for alignment etc before we left, we were 25 minutes into active use on the prong and then suddenly, when we're just walking down the street casually, it just flops off on the ground????? WTF?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Are you sure you have the collar fitted properly? I've only ever had a collar pop off if it was too loose.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> Are you sure you have the collar fitted properly? I've only ever had a collar pop off if it was too loose.


Yes, that's the whole complaint with me. 20" on the dot- straight line from back jaw to top of ear junction. It wasn't even when we were doing anything to have any slack or pressure on the links - that's what blew me away, it just let go when we were standing and not moving at all, though I had just brought out of a series of sit and downs in a really busy environment.

It sucks for me, because I had read about this possibly happening, for whatever reason. So - I purchased this killer-awesome connector - Last week, the 2 pro trainers said I didn't need it and trust the prong, so I left it at home - not....


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Hmm... weird! Are you using the one with the smallest sized links (2.25, I believe)? If so, I would try removing one and seeing if it will still fit your dog (within reason... I'm not suggesting you choke out your dog with a way too small collar or anything!). I've found it to be tough to get an accurate measurement on Bash's neck because of all the fur. I use one less link than his measurement would indicate right now, though that's about to change as his neck is getting bigger. We use the same type of leash connector you have, just in case.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. i have the 3.4m. She didn't "slip" the collar, it just dropped to the ground when we were standing there- qerchunk - and layed there, she looked at me, I looked at her????

Anyway, you have the same connector and - it's built like a brick shoot house. It will be on her from now on. I think the fit on her is right, I started with one link gone 19" and she was showing signs of small coughs in the house with no restraint.... The 20" - with her allowed me to put her in to the sit or down on a crazy busy street 15 or more times before it just "magically leap off". 

If you want me to post a couple of photos on the fit, I will be happy to do that - sometimes what your read and what is needed are different. Maybe it is too big, but she didn't slip it.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I think the issue with the fit of the collar being a little on the loose fitting side is not that the dog will slip the collar, but more that the looser the collar fits, the more wiggle room the links have to move and disconnect. If the collar is tightly fitted, the links won't have as much range of motion to disconnect from each other. 
Definitely a good idea to use the safety connector for them future!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I thought she slipped it. It's just that if they're too loose, they do tend to just fall apart. I know they're not cheap, but have you considered ordering the one with the smallest links? It's so much easier to get a great fit! We have the size you have and we used it for our pittie, but that one would not work for Bash. With the smaller links, you're really able to customize the fit. It might be helpful if you posted pictures of the fit, but it might be hard to tell if it's fitted correctly based on pictures alone.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for your reply. i have the 3.4m. She didn't "slip" the collar, it just dropped to the ground when we were standing there- qerchunk - and layed there, she looked at me, I looked at her????
> 
> Anyway, you have the same connector and - it's built like a brick shoot house. It will be on her from now on. I think the fit on her is right, I started with one link gone 19" and she was showing signs of small coughs in the house with no restraint.... The 20" - with her allowed me to put her in to the sit or down on a crazy busy street 15 or more times before it just "magically leap off".
> 
> If you want me to post a couple of photos on the fit, I will be happy to do that - sometimes what your read and what is needed are different. Maybe it is too big, but she didn't slip it.


There have been other threads on just this subject, size of links, etc. Look for posts by David Winners on the subject--he has posted a lot of good information on the prong, how to fit it, how to use it, etc. I do remember that he said he used a smaller link than what you mentioned--2.5 or 2.25 sticks in my mind, but you'd have to search for his posts to be sure, sorry I can't be of more help.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you both for your info. I will put some pics up tomorrow am on the fit. It will be pretty accurate as she is in Summer coat, so not a lot of fur to obscure. But your right, no harm in having the backup - I'm going to tell the trainers what happened on the way home and I'm sure they will agree as they checked the fit on the prong too.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Usually when they just fall off is when the prongs (both) are not inserted correctly, or one or more of the prongs are loose, bent inwards..

But either way, glad nothing serious happened..


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

This is what I have. The extra security of the nylon covering and slide buckle to fit is wonderful. Plus they look great. 
Lola Limited | Lola's Unique Dog Collars & Leashes LLC


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've had the 3.25 HS for a while now and haven't had any issues, I do however use a tab at all times as a backup. I don't feel it's worth the risk otherwise, I've always used a backup regardless of what tool I'm using


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

It is known that prongs come off...possibly because they aren't tight enough..or due to a harsh correction. Has happened to me and I just shrug and go on. I use a back slip collar....I thing I spent $5 on the slip and it is always used in combination with the prong. 

I occassionally will separate the prongs to make it harder for them to slip out.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I examined every inch, connected it correctly. In the middle of a busy street, the collar just fell to the ground. Thank goodness she held her "stay" untill I could pick up the links and reassemble them. Was a great working tool, but there goes my confidence. It may have been the link where I last "attached/detached" her was a frickin millimeter off - but I pulled, looked for alignment etc before we left, we were 25 minutes into active use on the prong and then suddenly, when we're just walking down the street casually, it just flops off on the ground????? WTF?


Unfortunately people are always commenting that their prongs never come loose in years of use. Personal experience is just not good enough or consistent enough. It can happen. It HAS happened to MANY people.

Which is why you need a live ring loose choke collar secondary leash attachment, or a prong cover, or a double attachment leash on regular collar to be 100% sure your dog will never suddenly be lose at the worst possible moment. 

This is not a years of experience issue. This is a collective fact based on statistical facts over large samples. Just because it has never happened to you or some other people, does not mean it is impossible to happen. On the contrary it is known to happen. Never happened to me either. But I always use a double collar connection incase it does.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I have always used a fur saver as a backup when using a prong collar. The fur saver is loose enough not to interfere with the working of the prong collar but that little bit of extra safety is worth millions to me.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Funny, I was just walking Nara and Kaze yesterday and was confidently telling myself how safe we were due to the quality of our HS collars. We would see other dogs and Kaze would get a bit excited, and zero issues - complete control. Kaze is my big, strong puller who has had the least amount of training in his life. Nara walked in a near perfect heel, regardless of nearby rabbits, squirrels, dogs, cats, birds. Kaze, not so much. Kaze came from living in a home for 2 years where he barely got any walks, and since he's been with me, we focus more on bikejoring for exercise and obedience than walks. It was a great training opportunity, and he did well other than his OCD zig zag and short attention span thanks to being "exercised" by a laser pointer for his first 2 years of life.

But yeah, I was feeling very comfortable knowing I had quality HS gear around my dogs necks instead of some cheap imitation. We use a curogan choke collar, but I connect the leash to both rings so as to override the choke function. I used to use HS prong collars and never had a problem. I remember how hard it was to pinch those links together to get them to attach. I would never imagine the links unhooking themselves. Crazy to read.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

I use 2 pairs of jewelers pliers to adjust the prongs. They leave no marks or burrs. Sometimes the links need adjustment right out of the package. I have had only one mishap [in the beginning] in all the years I used a prong collar and that was from a prong with no tension. I also use a short link fur saver for back up.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

This is why you should always have a backup collar on!
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...62Kk0g&ved=0CA8Qpis&ei=VNWKVanyIo3coATW2bS4DA

You can get one like this for a backup, it does not have to be used for training but only for emergencies!

Or this one!
http://leerburg.com/885.htm?catarge...ujZh50nJ1033Nbqrp7ZKIMwTN4tcpArAiVxoCvNzw_wcB


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

counter said:


> Funny, I was just walking Nara and Kaze yesterday and was confidently telling myself how safe we were due to the quality of our HS collars. We would see other dogs and Kaze would get a bit excited, and zero issues - complete control. Kaze is my big, strong puller who has had the least amount of training in his life. Nara walked in a near perfect heel, regardless of nearby rabbits, squirrels, dogs, cats, birds. Kaze, not so much. Kaze came from living in a home for 2 years where he barely got any walks, and since he's been with me, we focus more on bikejoring for exercise and obedience than walks. It was a great training opportunity, and he did well other than his OCD zig zag and short attention span thanks to being "exercised" by a laser pointer for his first 2 years of life.
> 
> But yeah, I was feeling very comfortable knowing I had quality HS gear around my dogs necks instead of some cheap imitation. We use a curogan choke collar, but I connect the leash to both rings so as to override the choke function. I used to use HS prong collars and never had a problem. I remember how hard it was to pinch those links together to get them to attach. I would never imagine the links unhooking themselves. Crazy to read.


I believe there is more slack on the live ring with a snuggly fit prong. This makes the prong more sensitive to corrections. And there is actually no choking effect.

If You use the dead ring, which is essentially the same thing as a double connction on some chokers. The dog actually may have more effect and 'feel' of the other collar instead of the prong.

You can use either way according to what you want to achieve. But I think your reasoning is opposite to how the effect actually works.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

WesS said:


> I believe there is more slack on the live ring with a snuggly fit prong. This makes the prong more sensitive to corrections. And there is actually no choking effect.
> 
> If You use the dead ring, which is essentially the same thing as a double connction on some chokers. The dog actually may have more effect and 'feel' of the other collar instead of the prong.
> 
> You can use either way according to what you want to achieve. But I think your reasoning is opposite to how the effect actually works.


 I transitioned off the prong years ago. I understand what you're saying though. I can deliver the correction faster on the dead ring without choking the dog if they pull too hard. I can also feel his movements quicker up the leash, so I can verbally command/correct and then a slight pop to change his direction at the neck and refocus his head. I understand with the live ring, the slack slows down the timing up and down the leash, which might confuse my OCD dog. Ha! He's learning though, as am I...always learning, 8 years in.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

counter said:


> I transitioned off the prong years ago. I understand what you're saying though. I can deliver the correction faster on the dead ring without choking the dog if they pull too hard. I can also feel his movements quicker up the leash, so I can verbally command/correct and then a slight pop to change his direction at the neck and refocus his head. I understand with the live ring, the slack slows down the timing up and down the leash, which might confuse my OCD dog. Ha! He's learning though, as am I...always learning, 8 years in.


Im not following you? So you are not using a prong at all? If not, I guess its a non-issue regarding how to secure a prong..?

I personally think corrections on just a chain without prong is a bit harsher for the dog physically over time. Degenerative wear and tear on neck. Need to snap quite a lot harder for same effect, and level of correction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I don't have a dog in this fight as it were.

I use a Slip lead leash myself and...they don't pop off! 

But down to business, if you talk to people that train dogs and train people to use "Prong Collars" correctly...they will tell you "Prong collars pop off all the time! Use a Carabiner to secure the 'Prong" to the dogs regular collar!

It's shown in here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DarpQ7bkJgg

I could narrow it down and tell folks how far in it is. But...if people are new to the tool and doing it on there own, then they should watch the whole thing!

And I'll add, if people are working with a trainer and they were not made aware of this??? Then get a new trainer!

It's dog 101, I know this and as I say I "don't" use a Prong!


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

WesS said:


> Im not following you? So you are not using a prong at all? If not, I guess its a non-issue regarding how to secure a prong..?
> 
> I personally think corrections on just a chain without prong is a bit harsher for the dog physically over time. Degenerative wear and tear on neck. Need to snap quite a lot harder for same effect, and level of correction.


 I just mentioned that we used to use prongs and never had an issue.

Now we are on the choke. My corrections are simple and soft pops. That's all it takes for me to correct my dogs. Nothing harsh or powerful. Just a simple pop with the verbal command until Kaze learns what it is I want from him. And when he stays focused, he gets positive praise and no pop, of course. He's still a big ol' goof with a puppy brain in a 90lb adult body. The OCD really messed him up, but he'll figure it out over time and through experience, more than through corrections, harsh or soft. Either way, I'm strong enough to control him when he gets excited, and I was posting more on the high quality of the HS gear I own, as I've had nothing but positive experiences. I'd never purchase a different brand and am a proud and loyal supporter of this company.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

counter said:


> I just mentioned that we used to use prongs and never had an issue.
> 
> Now we are on the choke. My corrections are simple and soft pops. That's all it takes for me to correct my dogs. Nothing harsh or powerful. Just a simple pop with the verbal command until Kaze learns what it is I want from him. And when he stays focused, he gets positive praise and no pop, of course. He's still a big ol' goof with a puppy brain in a 90lb adult body. The OCD really messed him up, but he'll figure it out over time and through experience, more than through corrections, harsh or soft. Either way, I'm strong enough to control him when he gets excited, and I was posting more on the high quality of the HS gear I own, as I've had nothing but positive experiences. I'd never purchase a different brand and am a proud and loyal supporter of this company.


What are the benefits really though? As far as I know a metal choker is a metal choker? 

Ive seen some terrible quality prongs, and im happy with Herman sprenger for my prong. 

But never thought much on getting a 'better quality choker'. As far as I am concerned most metal linked chains do a similar job and are pretty solid, never heard of metal just breaking... I guess stainless steal is important to avoid rust etc. But I would never let a chain deteriorate to such an extent, and they usually don't, and some substances are better than others. So is why I am asking to learn more.

I like the flat semi-chokers for their daily wearing leash with ID tag. sort of like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61UdLuEXqGL._SL1000_.jpg

And for normal choker just something like this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61I+SB74r6L._SL1200_.jpg


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

WesS said:


> What are the benefits really though? As far as I know a metal choker is a metal choker?
> 
> Ive seen some terrible quality prongs, and im happy with Herman sprenger for my prong.
> 
> ...


I agree. HS has not failed me, and I don't see it failing in my lifetime. This is what we use:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I've been trying to figure out what happened. I think this might have been what did it;

I was using it "fixed" and just in the last few days put it on slide. I'm doing a little more advanced walking, sit, laydown with her on the busy street with lots of distractions.

I thought a couple of times that it looked like her fur where the chain slide is was getting caught and I kinda flipped the leash up when the collar was looser to release the fur. This may have flipped the collar partially where I could not see it. The last correction could have started it on it's way to releasing, so when she exerted just a slight pressure on it - it was enough to release and just flop to the ground. 

I'll never know for sure so a 2nd collar is a must from now on. I'm just not sure how to attach it so it won't interfere with the prong slide??


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Look at the link I posted, it's actually 2 collars in one, the prong is securely stitched inside of a nylon collar. It's a built in back-up.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have one of these for each dog: Leerburg | Leather Pull Tab










I attach the leash to the prong collar and the ring on the tab. I attach the clip on the other end of the tab to the flat collar that they have their tags on.


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