# My Vets, semi successful argument against All Raw meat diet???



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

My 11 week old Working Dog Black Shepherd is THRIVING... Lactose free milk, 70 % meat with bone, beef - chicken- or lamb, but mostly beef. And 30% organ meat, liver-kidney-heart... Smartest I can remember of my three Shepherds, protective already, well socialized but when a steer got out he displayed natural herding instincts, barking and heading out the steer cleverly..

Yes, I am convinced the dry kibble is toxic, and the contributor of my older GSD dogs bad odor, ear problems, constant shedding, itchy, and joint problems. *On this raw diet too, my 10 year old seems to be improving in only a week..*

Anyway, talking with my Vet this morning for the 11 week old Pups C-5, I told him how well my 10 year old Dakota (Cody) dog was responding. He told me that the all meat protein diet was a bit of a myth, and he had a semi valid point: Even the wolves (I call it the wolf diet) even they eat the stomach and contents of their prey. Even the smaller prey is consumed with the vegetable matter in their bodies...

The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein. He has suggested supplementing with a little kibble or cooked vegetables or similar. He claims that predators eat the stomach contents of their prey.. ????

Is this a valid point, to encourage some vegetable supplements off the dinner table..???

Kind regards from the lone Ranger in Australia...


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I've heard the opposite from a wolf biologist that they actually don't eat stomach contents of larger prey but I do not know it to be fact.

I do think a lot of kibble and other dog foods(and cat foods! Cats definitely do not need veggies!) have way too much veg and fruit matter. Seems to be more for us then them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh I don't know. I think that hunting down wild game and killing and eating it for survival is hard to actually duplicate. I mean a wild dog or wolf has to stay light, agile, trim and fast to run down prey animals. Prey animals stay trim and fast running away from predators. Prey animals eat grass and brush and when they cannot get grass trees, they do not load up on corn and other grains, they are fast, where herded animals are protected and pretty much kept quietly munching away to produce fatty meats. 

A wild dog might not eat for a couple of days and then gorge on very lean meat. They will often eat everything but the squeal, including bones, organs, and if there are a number of dogs feasting on a carcus, they are eating the intestines and stomach contents too. C'mon folks our dogs eat grass and grains and veggies and fruit and cat poop, goose poop, rabbit poop, and dog poop given the opportunity. I don't think they are going to turn their noses up to stomach contents, especially if there are more than one of them chowing down. 

I wonder if the problems that vets see with kindey and renal failure is actually due to the fat content of the meat that we give our dogs moreso than the protein in the meat. But they do tell you to knock down the protein if there are kidney problems. They say it doesn't cause them, well the pro-RAW people generally do. 

I figure the answer is somewhere in between. I think dog food gives less meat and bone meal than a dog would likely get in the wild with respect to the amount of grains/veggies/fruits -- carbs they would normally eat; but I think that the types of meat that we would give the dogs would be far higher in fat, hormones, and antibiotics than what a dog eating wild would normally eat. 

I suppose you could hunt daily with your dog, walking miles and miles and on those days you get pheasant, grouse, deer, or rabbit, you could feed it to the dog raw. And on the days you bring down nothing, the dog could go without. And that might be pretty close to how a dog would eat if they were in the wild. 

Now, what is the average lifespan of wild wolves, and coyotes? Is it more or less than on average kibble fed dogs? Just curious.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

RAW is the way to go IMO. Anything that will keep the dog away from the Vet is not in the Vet's best financial interest. :laugh: 
Organs are great to add to the diet, Chicken gizzards, Chicken liver, even beef liver.  
As for veggies pure' them in liquid form and add them to the meal. Raw veggies for some reason do not digest well intact .


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Other members on the board who have studied wolves say that larger prey, the stomach contents are shaken out before eating the stomach re: acids, small prey like rodents and bunnies wouldn't yeild high veg content.

However, animals in the wild are not jabbed with vaccines and the adjuvants like aluminum and mercury and formaldhyde, nor are they dose with pesticides in their blood monthly...

So adding in a nominal amount of fruit away from meals (re: putrifaction) and juiced green leafy veg or highly processed lightly cooked - are good for ant-oxident addition to the diet...i.e. apple (no seeds and organic if keeping skins on, if not organic - peel them) pection is good for chelating heavy metals

I believe the organ meat should only be 10% and the liver at least should be organic


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein.


I've always thought(and have been told by a vet or two) senior dogs need a bit higher protein, similar to a pups requirement. 
Protein Requirements in Senior Dogs - You Might be Surprised | Dog Star Daily
http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjseniordiets.html
I transferred my 10 yr old over to raw after eating kibble her whole life, and she was almost 15 before her body gave out. I noticed remarkable improvement in her arthritic body after changing her diet. I fed green tripe but no veggies. Her stinky breath and skin/coat were so improved and she never got hot spots again. We fought hot spots every August until her diet change.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

lone Ranger said:


> My 11 week old Working Dog Black Shepherd is THRIVING... Lactose free milk, 70 % meat with bone, beef - chicken- or lamb, but mostly beef. And 30% organ meat, liver-kidney-heart...


Heart is not an organ - it's muscle meat. I wouldn't feed milk as dogs don't need it once they are weaned.



> Anyway, talking with my Vet this morning for the 11 week old Pups C-5, I told him how well my 10 year old Dakota (Cody) dog was responding. He told me that the all meat protein diet was a bit of a myth, and he had a semi valid point: Even the wolves (I call it the wolf diet) even they eat the stomach and contents of their prey. Even the smaller prey is consumed with the vegetable matter in their bodies...


With large prey animals the wolves, if not starving, will shake out the stomach contents since they are rather acidic. If the carnivores are low on food they will eat everything.

With small prey animals the stomach contents are consumed because the stomach is small and dogs don't take time to remove it - they just eat the whole thing.



> The Vet claims an all meat diet is hard on the older Shepherds kidneys and liver, too much protein.


My girl Neke lived to 14.5 on a raw diet with NO veggies or anything non-meat related - except the occasional green tripe.

Green tripe is about as close to the stomach contents of prey as you can get.

As for it being too much protein - it's not. A raw diet does not mean high protein. In fact, it's been shown that the protein in a raw diet is much easier for dogs - especially older ones - to process.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> I've always thought(and have been told by a vet or two) senior dogs need a bit higher protein,


It's not so much a higher 'amount' of protein - it's a higher QUALITY. You want it to be as bio-available (easy for the dog's system to process) as possible so they get the most out of their food.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

Laurie,
How do you feel about supplements
Flaxseed oil, vitamin E, vitamin C (This one is said to help with stress, no idea if it is true) do you feel supplements are necessary or do you feel it is a myth and over rated? Is there value in the supplements? Is there value in veggies? 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

So an all-meat diet is supposedly hard on an older dog's liver and kidneys? Doesn't seem to be negatively affecting Ianna at all. She's 14 years 9 months and has been on a raw diet her whole life. She can still hear a bit (some selective deafness  ), can still see, is still mischievous, and can still get around OK tho she needs a boost sometimes.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Common sense tells me that gsd didnt evolve from N american timberwolves. So Is there any info on what wild dogs of europe and russia eat? Ive heard that some wolves eat lots of grass and vegies but the N american timberwolf is the one who eats all meat. I fed my girl a strawberry today along with her chicken legs...


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Uh has anyone considered the size of the stomach as opposed to say... the rest of the animal? Common sense tells me that no, dogs don't need veggies of any sort. I don't know why people keep arguing over this. Dogs don't even have the enzymes or dental structure necessary to break down the cell walls of plant matter. That's why those "BARF" diets ALWAYS cook or puree veggies in order to break it down for them. Completely useless to feed veggies otherwise. If I gave my dog a carrot stick right now it would come right out the other end looking just like it did when he first ate it.

Also, I wouldn't be giving your dog milk. It really doesn't help. I'm assuming you're giving bony meals as well.


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## OffgridAlex (Dec 11, 2012)

I always think it is a bit curious when people suggest doing things the way that they were when we evolved is better. 

A wild wolf rarely lives beyond 10 years, a wolf kept in captivity can live for more than 20. 

People talk a lot about paelo diets in humans, but when we used to eat in that way you would be dead by age 30. I'm 31 and this toxic cancer causing western diet hasn't got me yet. 

I personally think a BARF diet must be superior for a dog and the changes you have seen in your dog are proof, but I think we have to remember that wild wolves live on the edge of starvation, they will eat anything they can and waste nothing - a wolf that doesn't know where it's next meal is coming from is not going to refuse to eat stomach contents because it 'doesn't need vegetables' it will eat every scrap that contains a calorie. It will eat rats and snakes and half rotten things that have been dead for weeks and are crawling with maggots.....it doesn't mean we should be sourcing these things for our dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mmmmmm maggots. I wonder what the protein value is of a serving of maggots. Ewwww!!!!

I think that was my point when I said how long do they live? To feed an animal the way they would have been if they were wild is a bit unrealistic. Dogs do like fruit though. I remember someone telling me a story about their dog who was over-weight to the point of being embarrassing. They put the dog on a diet until it was eating half what the bag of food said it should eat. And still the dog gained weight. They checked for medical conditions. No go. Finally they realized the dog was helping itself to falls from the pear tree. 

My girls like apples, bananas and especially oranges. I think that it comes down to how healthy your dog looks and acts on whatever you are feeding, so long as you are following some protocol on what canines should eat, and not just chucking them meat or feeding them left-over people food as their main food source.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> I've heard the opposite from a wolf biologist that they actually don't eat stomach contents of larger prey but I do not know it to be fact.
> 
> I do think a lot of kibble and other dog foods(and cat foods! Cats definitely do not need veggies!) have way too much veg and fruit matter. Seems to be more for us then them.



I heard this too, something to do with the stomach acids burn their mouths or taste bitter?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

OffgridAlex said:


> I always think it is a bit curious when people suggest doing things the way that they were when we evolved is better.
> 
> A wild wolf rarely lives beyond 10 years, a wolf kept in captivity can live for more than 20.


That's because wolves in captivity are in thier own pack and not competing for territory, which is the biggest killer for wolves.

Also, wolves in captivity get regular meals, no risk of starvation. They feed wolves in captivity raw meat


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

My biggest pet peeve is people who have no experience with wolf diet and behaviour making claims like that.

In 9 years of watching the Haliburton Forest Wolf Pack I have never seen a wolf eat the stomach contents. They would pull the stomach content out and shake it to remove the green blob, then eat the stomach. Occasionally I have seen a wolf or two go over and lick the stomach contents or sniff it intently, but never consume it.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

volcano said:


> Common sense tells me that gsd didnt evolve from N american timberwolves. So Is there any info on what wild dogs of europe and russia eat? Ive heard that some wolves eat lots of grass and vegies but the N american timberwolf is the one who eats all meat. I fed my girl a strawberry today along with her chicken legs...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EE-3aggrAHI


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> ...........I transferred my 10 yr old over to raw after eating kibble her whole life, and she was almost 15 before her body gave out. I noticed remarkable improvement in her arthritic body after changing her diet. I fed green tripe but no veggies. Her stinky breath and skin/coat were so improved and she never got hot spots again. We fought hot spots every August until her diet change.


Thank you all, and specifically you (onyx's girl)... These are exactly the problems with my 10 year old Alpha Male GSD Dakota (Cody).. I think I am converted, it is just that the Vet put me off the track a little with what seemed a logical argument... 

Now a scientific Caveat please: My pup is thriving, big for his age, smart and displaying working Dog characteristics none of my other Shepherds did. Further, my 10 year old in only week-ten days is responding positively to the raw diet. *HOWEVER, the Caveat is that after my pup has eaten all he wants, if I give him a handful of Science Diet or Royal Canin, he voraciously attacks it as if there is something he is craving like carbohydrates... Once I made the mistake a few days ago and gave hem three handfuls and he ate until he threw up. There must be something in it his body is lacking, and I am thinking carbs?????? *It is not just a change in diet, I alter his diet to raw chicken, meat on the bone, organ meat 30%, all sorts and nothing he attacks as hard as the Science or Royal Canin GSD specific kibble.

*How is that? There was a theory that small dogs and animals crave what is good for their body... Is he after carbs? In your opinion is some kibble OK?*

Thank you again for your help. I did not do as good of a job as I would like to, on my first two GSDs (both still alive)... And I am cautiously trying to do everything right with this pup. Big, Black, GSD working dog type...

_Thank you again, this is a great resource of information, from you Good People that have tried it all for years and know the results.._

lone Ranger in Oz.... Living "Dances with Wolves" (albeit GSDs).. As much as possible with Horses out on the Last Frontier of Australia..


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

You're essentially giving him ice cream and chocolate after a meal. What 'kid' can resist junk food?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs like meat and will eat meat. If there is meat in a kibble and the fat isn't rancid, there is no reason to sugar it up with molassis. I am not sure about Royal Canin or Science Diet, but some of the feeding tests they do, that require that so many percentage of the dogs on the food do not lose more than a certain percentage of their body weights, if the formula fails, they put more molassis in it, so that the dogs will eat more of it. 

This is basically why I avoid kibbles that are sugared up. 

Again, I am not sure about RC or SD, but both foods are foods that I have looked at in the past and chosen against, I just am not sure why. 

I feed mostly kibble, and give hunks of raw meat just as a treat or as an occasional meal in lieu of kibble.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Thank you Verivus and Selzer...:thumbup:

*So what you are saying Verivus*, is it is not that he is lacking something present in the kibble, but that it just tastes good and that is why he hoes into it? Look I am just learning blind, by feel.. I was afraid he was lacking some nutrient in the all raw meat diet I am giving him... :help:

And Selzer, on recommendations, the Science Diet and Royal Canin are the highest rated.. That and maybe Eucanubra (something like that)... What are you feeding yours? 

I am hoping to not make the mistakes I can see on my first two GSDs... There is hope though, since starting Cody on about a half to full kilo of raw in the morning (what ever he will eat) and a chicken carcass at night, my 10 year old is responding and heat spot is gone (summer here) shedding is less, odour down, and I think his coat is better and he is putting on weight over his hips.. It could be wishful thinking in only sort of 10 day on it.. But...

My observations so far are that the raw meat and bone diet is better than all kibble. I am just wondering if I do a handful of kibble as well...:help: 

Kind regards, and Thank you for your input... !!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

lone Ranger said:


> Look I am just learning blind, by feel.. I was afraid he was lacking some nutrient in the all raw meat diet I am giving him... :help:


As long as you are feeding raw meat, with edible bone, and organ meats from several (3-5 at least) protein sources then you should be fine.

If you feel the need to add something 'green' to your dogs diet - try green tripe (not the stuff you find at grocery stores).



> And Selzer, on recommendations, the Science Diet and Royal Canin are the highest rated..


Science Diet (aka Science Death) is one of the WORST foods you can feed a dog.

Here's the first ingredients in the SD Mature Adult Dry food:
Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Whole Grain Wheat, Brewers Rice, Whole Grain Sorghum, Whole Grain Corn, Animal Fat, Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Corn Gluten Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Dried Beet Pulp
​Out of the first seven ingredients - only ONE is what dogs (carnivores) actually need - Chicken Meal. Those are followed by Animal Fat (since it's not a named source it could be from ANY animal - including other dogs and cats??). Then there's liver FLAVOR (not even real liver) and more grains (carnivores do not need grains).

Yuck and a waste of money. You are paying for all that grain which is going to come out the other end as large stools.



> ... my 10 year old is responding and heat spot is gone (summer here) shedding is less, odour down, and I think his coat is better and he is putting on weight over his hips.. It could be wishful thinking in only sort of 10 day on it.. But...


NOT wishful thinking. I adopted an old Husky in very bad shape and switched her to raw right away. These are the changes I saw in just 30 days:


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

and...the corn and soy are GMO


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## BamasPride (Jan 3, 2013)

*So...*

Ok so this is prolly gonna sound stupid to those of you who feed raw but I have always been told to never let my dog have chicken bones because they splinter and will hurt the dogs insides is this true? Or have I been believing An old wives tale?


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

BamasPride said:


> Ok so this is prolly gonna sound stupid to those of you who feed raw but I have always been told to never let my dog have chicken bones because they splinter and will hurt the dogs insides is this true? Or have I been believing An old wives tale?


Bama, that is COOKED chicken bones... Raw is not a splintering issue the same.. Mind you I am not over to raw legs yet because of the spike needle bone in there, but the rest is all ok. The raw thigh bones, the whole carcass, on a young pup I just will not do the leg bone. I will carve off the meat on the leg as I still do not go for that spike along the main bone, even raw. I am sure some do, especially with older dogs, but not me on my 12 week old Pup...

Bama, cooked carcass rib and back and neck and whole carcass, without the big cooked bones, is also just fine... 
Kind regards from Oz


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## BamasPride (Jan 3, 2013)

He is7 and a half months as long as its raw he can have it? Where do you get your raw meat do u you buy it like from Walmart? Sorry for dumb questions but if it is healthier for him to it raw I will try to do it but I want to have my facts straight before I give him anything


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

BamasPride said:


> He is7 and a half months as long as its raw he can have it?


That's correct. Do not cook those bone or meat in any way. Raw bones will not splinter and the dog will fully digest them. 



BamasPride said:


> Where do you get your raw meat do u you buy it like from Walmart? Sorry for dumb questions but if it is healthier for him to it raw I will try to do it but I want to have my facts straight before I give him anything


Go anywhere. Where would you buy your meat for dinner? It's the same thing. Costco, walmart, stop and shop, whatever. You'll probably save money if you buy in bulk and freeze though.

And if you do go the raw route... make sure you're feeding the correct amounts. There's very specific ratios of meat, bone, and organs that you have to feed to feed a balanced raw diet. This is probably the best possible diet for a dog (carnivore) *if done correctly*... regardless of what your or anyone elses vet says.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I wouldnt even feed plants that I eat that low quality crap. My little girl is on raw and had her first visit at a "holistic"vet today. They dont even know, I asked quantity and they handed packets of some dehydrated commercial version of raw. Me< I likea restaruant, change of flavor etc. My dog doesnt need every single meal "balanced" as if she on mre's or an astronaut. Im gona give her some different stuff- and im seriously considering starting a raw feed business, more dogs need a real food, like I said I wouldnt feed the ingredients in kibble to a plant I was gonna eat.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> As long as you are feeding raw meat, with edible bone, and organ meats from several (3-5 at least) protein sources then you should be fine.


Just a word of caution.....here in Australia you need to be very careful when it comes to feeding internal organs of livestock including sheep, cattle, goats, kangaroo etc due to the high incidence of hydatid tapeworm in our environment .....not sure about the US but over here it is an issue. You would have to buy it from a butcher selling for human consumption.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Wild Wolf said:


> My biggest pet peeve is people who have no experience with wolf diet and behaviour making claims like that.
> 
> In 9 years of watching the Haliburton Forest Wolf Pack I have never seen a wolf eat the stomach contents. They would pull the stomach content out and shake it to remove the green blob, then eat the stomach. Occasionally I have seen a wolf or two go over and lick the stomach contents or sniff it intently, but never consume it.


Hey Wild Wolf, have they caught the loose wolves yet?

I can't believe someone would release them like they did


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## staceybullock (Mar 22, 2012)

*Raw worked when kibble or combo diets didn't*

I feed my GSD two chicken leg quarters a day, and supplement from time to time with pheasant, quail, beef liver, pork or fish ~ but only on a bi-monthly basis at best.

Prior to feeding him RAW, he was on a kibble/meat mixture and had constant diarrhea, was easily nauseated (car rides, etc) and looked to thin (Ribs showed). Now he looks great with a shiny coat, clear eyes, and more energy. 

The chicken costs me .78 per lb, and he gets about 2 lbs. a day.

never going back to kibble for him.


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## Bonnie Corcoran (Dec 20, 2010)

What is green tripe? We feed our dogs cooked green beans twice a week and I notice that the shepherd no longer tries to gobble down grass when we are walking so it looks like they do need greens of some sort.


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## Smoke (Jan 6, 2013)

It is true they do eat the stomach contents of prey and adding vegetables to the raw meat is a good idea. I add our table leftovers to the dogs meat all the time.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Wolves don't eat stomach contents. They stomach acid tastes bitter and burns their mouths.

http://www.kidsplanet.org/tt/wolf/reading/5hunting.PDF

"In consuming the kill, wolves do very little chewing. For the most part, they tear off
chunks of meat and swallow them whole. And they eat every part of a kill, except the
skull and stomach contents. What they don’t eat immediately they will cache, or store, for
later consumption or to provide for the pups in the pack."


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## BamasPride (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok what are the amounts of each that he should eat on a daily basis ? And from which animal is it best I have a local butcher that will sell organs and bone scrapes at a discounted price so I will check with them to see what all they have available in a regular basis


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## yote54 (Nov 22, 2011)

I agree, feed human quality when possible. I fed one of those 'raw diet' foods in a tube and apparently my dog held the bacteria in his system never did do well. Grain free Acana and Fromm has saved him and my rescue both. Guess it depends on the individual dog. Mine do get raw chicken legs a few times a week. Frozen, great substitute for some sort of rawhide chew. that's for sure.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

blackshep said:


> Hey Wild Wolf, have they caught the loose wolves yet?
> 
> I can't believe someone would release them like they did


Horrible event... shed many tears...

Not sure if you've been following but Granite passed away (alpha female) due to her gun wounds, and Haida (alpha male) and Lonestar (his son) are doing well, but haven't been returned to the enclosure yet. They are seen every day, though, and come to the center to eat. Two wolves were lost thanks to someone's ignorance. 

2 dead, 2 remain outside and they are working hard to get them back in safely.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I find it interesting that if a coyote comes up on a large dead animal, deer, cow etc., and the body is intact, they will begin feeding from the anus...after they eat the eyes. 

If they are feeding from the anus, I don't know how a coyote can skip the stomach contents.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Dogs (and wolves) do not have the enzymes to digest raw vegetables. It would make sense that in theory wolves could eat the stomach contents of their kills because those greens would've already had some enzymes on them in order to break down and digest the actual green. But I doubt this happens as it would be pretty hard to choke down some of those acids and enzymes.

That being said...blanched or thoroughly blended vegies will get some rate of absorption in canine digestion. Not all, but some. And although they don't need it, it can't hurt to get a few extra vitamins and nutrients that aren't present in meat. It's not a necessity, but it won't hurt them either. Some vegetables are wonderful for clearing up digestive issues...when my boy gets the runs, we just give him a few tablespoons of pureed pumpkin and it clears it up faster than any medicine the vet has ever given us.

I wanted to add...if not for the cost and the storage space needed to buy in bulk, I'd be doing raw. At the moment we just feed a high quality kibble. We used to do pre-made raw, but had to stop due to some food issues. Can't say I've noticed a difference with anything in my boy since he's been on 100% kibble. With some dogs, depending on the problems, you'll see huge improvements, but with others, it really won't affect them at all. In fact...my boy needs carbs to slow down his digestive process or otherwise he gets hungry in the middle of the night and starts to puke bile. We noticed feeding him kibble slows this down considerably and he can then make it to the morning meal.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

There are so many threads on feeding dogs veggies if you use the search. Just a recent one:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/196696-vegetables.html

A link I've posted before:
Raw Feeding at its finest-CAUTION-GRAPHIC PHOTOS

A good link Lisa has posted before:
Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?


For those of you asking about how to feed raw properly... use the search option. There are a million threads on it on this forum alone, not counting the millions of other threads on other sites. Essentially (following the prey model) you are feeding 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver 5% other organs. The protein sources MUST be varied. Your dog cannot be eating *just* chicken or *just* beef because then you WILL run into deficiencies of certain vitamins/minerals because it is not a *balanced* diet. 

At minimum you should have 3 different protein sources being rotated. Not just 3 difference sources of muscle meat, but also 3 different sources of organ meat as well. If you can provide different bone sources that is also ideal. More is better. If you're limited on choices, red meat is better then white meat. If you cannot provide multiple protein sources on a regular basis (bimonthly is NOT a regular basis) you either need to look at where the deficiencies are and supplement, or go back to kibble.


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## GlennM (Aug 14, 2011)

*Our fussy Kimba*

This will be my first post on this board, something I have wanted to do for a long time. 

We have a two year female GSD (Kimba) who is extremely fussy with her diet. She will not eat any kibble whether the highest of high end or the lowest garbage on the market ( there is alot of these).

I am fortunate to work for a meat wholesaler, so I make her food. Not quite a Barf diet, but my version. 

I use an inside round (25 lbs), 14 lbs chicken breast. Which I cut into cubes and cook them. Sweet potatoes, Khale, Spinach and apples are also cooked and pureed. She gets 1 cup of beef, 1 cup of vegetable mix and 3/4 cup of chicken breast. Twice a day. This will make about 21 days worth of food. She has no problem with this food ( she also loves can Tripe). Our Vet sees no problem with this version. Kimba is quite healthy,active and has been eating this for 18 months. 

I often wondered if I was doing the right thing or maybe doing more harm than good. This board and its members have been a great help.

At work we sell alot of Chicken Necks and Backs to dog owners, some grind,some feed direct. So if your looking for a supply, contact your local meat distributor/wholesaler they should be able to help. Thanks Glenn & Kimba


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bonnie Corcoran said:


> *What is green tripe*? We feed our dogs cooked green beans twice a week and I notice that the shepherd no longer tries to gobble down grass when we are walking so it looks like they do need greens of some sort.


A Place for Paws - Columbiana, Ohio - Tripe - The Other White Meat


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Your vet is correct. Wild dogs/wolfs do eat whats in their preys stomach. All dogs need some ingredient variety, but I believe"muscle" meat should be the highest percent of a dogs diet. Keep in mind dogs need a variety of vitiumns just like we do.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

GlennM said:


> This will be my first post on this board, something I have wanted to do for a long time.
> 
> We have a two year female GSD (Kimba) who is extremely fussy with her diet. She will not eat any kibble whether the highest of high end or the lowest garbage on the market ( there is alot of these).
> 
> ...


PERFECT, ONE GREAT DIET IF I MAY SAY SO, a little fish would be even better. I am lucky enough to have a great butcher in my area, along with an asian market where I can get frozen pollack fillets for 1.89 a pound. LOL, TRIPE, PE-UUUUU.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

GlennM said:


> I use an inside round (25 lbs), 14 lbs chicken breast. Which I cut into cubes and cook them. Sweet potatoes, Khale, Spinach and apples are also cooked and pureed. She gets 1 cup of beef, 1 cup of vegetable mix and 3/4 cup of chicken breast. Twice a day. This will make about 21 days worth of food. She has no problem with this food ( she also loves can Tripe). Our Vet sees no problem with this version. Kimba is quite healthy,active and has been eating this for 18 months.
> 
> I often wondered if I was doing the right thing or maybe doing more harm than good. This board and its members have been a great help.


You need to learn more about home-cooked diets. I'm pretty sure that is not balanced, but I've never done home-cooked. Too complicated for me.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Your vet is correct. Wild dogs/wolfs do eat whats in their preys stomach. All dogs need some ingredient variety, but I believe"muscle" meat should be the highest percent of a dogs diet. Keep in mind dogs need a variety of vitiumns just like we do.


Please don't spread misinformation, you are incorrect. Wolves do not eat stomach contents.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

sparra said:


> Just a word of caution.....here in Australia you need to be very careful when it comes to feeding internal organs of livestock including sheep, cattle, goats, kangaroo etc due to the high incidence of hydatid tapeworm in our environment .....not sure about the US but over here it is an issue. You would have to buy it from a butcher selling for human consumption.


Hello Sparra, good looking Black GSD there... My 12 week old (tomorrow) Black GSD Working Dog type, is THRIVING!! Larger and smarter than my other Shepherds, and twice with a steer out, he displayed natural herding instincts on the lead as we pushed the steer back into his paddock!! I am in the Sunshine Coast, you're in Melbourne from memory. I will be in Melbourne from about the 5th to 12th of March for the big Caravan and Motorhome Show where we will be exibiting, staying at the Casino, partying every night.. :happyboogie: Deadening the Pain of dealing with the Public at the Shows.. :toasting:

*Anyway, thanks for the Tip on the Tapeworm, and here is one back to you: Not only Human Butcher, but also I get the Organ meat from an Organic Butcher. Any pesticides, hormones, fertilizer, or herbicide residues would likely have traces in the liver and kidneys. My Organic Butcher organ meat, chopped up, in kilo packets and freezer wrapped is $4.98 kg. I think it is worth it, as a kg is sort of a half week supply or more at 20%-30% to muscle meat beef, chicken.*


Kind regards, lone Ranger doing "Dances with Wolves" with GSDs and Horses in Oz...


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GlennM said:


> This will be my first post on this board, something I have wanted to do for a long time.
> 
> We have a two year female GSD (Kimba) who is extremely fussy with her diet. She will not eat any kibble whether the highest of high end or the lowest garbage on the market ( there is alot of these).
> 
> ...


What are you supplimenting - you need 900mg of calcium per pound of food if you are not giving RAW bones...otherwise she is NOT getting what she needs...18 months w/o calcium and phos is not good


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GlennM -She definitely needs bone in her diet. the easiest way is to feed poultry necks, backs or chicken quarters...RAW...no cooked bones!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The kale and spinach are both high in calcium.

Personally, if I had to home cook I would used baked, crushed eggs shells for my calcium source instead of veggies.


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## Mendozaalexr (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi I'm new to the forum but have a lot to talk about and want to learn about from different people's opinions... I have a 15 week old German Shepherd (male named Boss).. I got him when he was 7weeks old and he is one of the best decisions I've made. . So I've been feeding him dry purina puppy chow and it can get costly. I've been researching the RAW meat diet and was wondering if I could get any fees back or recommendations on if what I'm doing is ok and will not harm him. So every morning and afternoon for the past week I've been cutting up about 1/2 a pound of raw chicken breast boneless and skinless and serving it to him with him purina puppy chow is this ok? Also I gave him a raw egg just once along with that I was told to just feed him a raw egg once a week.. Thank you for reading please respond I would really appreciate it.









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## GlennM (Aug 14, 2011)

*Kimba's food*

Thanks for the responses. In my haste to go grocery shopping. I forgot to mention, she has raw beef marrow bones all over the house. She eats (loves) canned tuna,sardines and cooked salmon shredded. I also include in her food Bio-Joint health supplement for dogs. Thanks again Glenn & Kimba


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Wild Wolf said:


> Horrible event... shed many tears...
> 
> Not sure if you've been following but Granite passed away (alpha female) due to her gun wounds, and Haida (alpha male) and Lonestar (his son) are doing well, but haven't been returned to the enclosure yet. They are seen every day, though, and come to the center to eat. Two wolves were lost thanks to someone's ignorance.
> 
> 2 dead, 2 remain outside and they are working hard to get them back in safely.


Can they not dart them? I can't beleive anyone thought that was the right thing to do. SO STUPID.

Isn't their enclosure 10,000 acres or something? Yeah, they must feel so clautrophobic... :crazy:

Hope they catch the other two loose ones soon! Those people totally upset the pack order.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GlennM said:


> Thanks for the responses. In my haste to go grocery shopping. I forgot to mention, she has raw beef marrow bones all over the house. She eats (loves) canned tuna,sardines and cooked salmon shredded. I also include in her food Bio-Joint health supplement for dogs. Thanks again Glenn & Kimba


That is still not getting her the calcium she needs. She needs to either have a calcium supplement or add raw bones that she can chew and digest in her diet.

Calcium supplements = baked and ground egg shells, blue/green algae

Information About Algae, Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, AFA Blue Green Algae, Blue Green Algae - KlamathBlueGreen.com

1/2 tsp egg shell per l lb food
https://www.facebook.com/notes/crf-...de-pet-food-phosphorus-binder/294260780605680
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for egg shell 1/2 teaspoon


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Lilie said:


> I find it interesting that if a coyote comes up on a large dead animal, deer, cow etc., and the body is intact, they will begin feeding from the anus...after they eat the eyes.
> 
> If they are feeding from the anus, I don't know how a coyote can skip the stomach contents.



it's merely an easy starting point for the meal. There is already a hole there, so it's easier to start tearing away flesh than to make a hole in thick animal hide. They don't literally crawl up the digestive track.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> it's merely an easy starting point for the meal. There is already a hole there, so it's easier to start tearing away flesh than to make a hole in thick animal hide. They don't literally crawl up the digestive track.


Oh...(LOL) I didn't mean that they crawl up the digestive track. I meant that they pull and yank from that beginning area. Although it is very disgusting to be a witness to such a feeding, it does make one think about it.


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## Paul_R (May 8, 2011)

I tried a few different kibble foods for our GSD (CC) and she couldn't tolerate any of them. Constant diarrhea. So we gave raw a shot and she's thrived ever since. She's two years old and going strong. We're lucky because we have a great local producer Excel K9 Diet Home

They agree that meat alone isn't good and they add some other things but only small amounts. 

Our 15 year old golden retriever has gotten a second lease on life because of the raw diet. The positive effects were immediate when we switched him over.


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## Wanderer (Apr 9, 2011)

Carnivore = meat eater = Sharks, Lions, T-Rex
Carnivore = member of Order Carnivora = Lions, Bears, Wolves, etc

I will be using the second definition

The earliest carnivores were quite adept at eating all sorts of stuff: fruits, certain fiberous and tuberous parts of plants, flowers, insects, reptiles, fish, eggs, bone, muscle and organ tissue. However the bone, muscle, and organ tissue made up a very small percentage of their diet.

Think of what a modern day raccoon would eat.

What made a carnivore go on the path to bringing us giant meat eating beasts is a set of teeth called the Carnassials which were specialized in cutting meat. (Well, that and some lumps in the skull that are associated with the very keen senses that the carnivores have)

Some carnivores either kept this omnivorous diet or rediscovered it. Some went so far as to 'rediscover' herbivorous diet (Giant Panda)

The Cat family is an example of one that has gone on to become a 'supercarnivore' in that it eats meat meat and meat. One way this is revealed is to look at a cat's Teeth. It has small teeth in the front for chopping off bits, big canines for holding the prey, and then the carnassials for cutting the meat that is in it's mouth into swallow-able sizes. It also has big stretches where there are no teeth.










Now, look at a canine skull










It has a lot more teeth, because canines are still amendable to eating all sorts of stuff in addition to meat.

Of the common canines, the fox is the one that eats the most non-meat. It is an omnivore year round. The Coyote on a year round basis eats a lot more meat but during certain seasons of the spring and fall it eats more plants than anything else. Wolves are the most inclined to eat meat and only meat, but all wolves will occasionally eat fruts and nuts when extremely plentiful, and the frequency of this is heavily dependent on the sub-species. The sub-species most likely to have been the one which dogs descended from (The Indian Wolf or Arabic Wolf) take more advantage of non-meat than most other sub-species.

This is all stacking up in favor AGAINST a 100% raw meat diet.


Recently there have been some studies about the genetic divergence between wolves and dogs. What came to light is that what dogs have that wolves don't is genes that increase the dog's ability to eat starchy food.

This is being viewed in one of two ways. The first is that garbage eating wolves developed this trait in the earliest days of proto-domestication. The second is that dogs were domesticated BEFORE this trait, when humans were hunter-gatherer, and when Humans discovered agriculture both humans and dogs went through genetic changes to make them more suited to their new diet.

Either way, now we have specific evidence that dogs are NOT designed to eat meat only but can make other stuff work if needed. Clearly dogs are designed to eat meat AND starch.

This doe not mean that kibble and only kibble is best, or even that kibble and only kibble is better than meat and only meat.

HOwever if I were feeding a non-kibble diet I'd use the above information to be just fine throwing in a few slices of banana, bits of bread, even a bit of cooked vegetables.


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## amberb (Jan 6, 2013)

Wanderer said:


> Recently there have been some studies about the genetic divergence between wolves and dogs. What came to light is that what dogs have that wolves don't is genes that increase the dog's ability to eat starchy food.
> 
> This is being viewed in one of two ways. The first is that garbage eating wolves developed this trait in the earliest days of proto-domestication. The second is that dogs were domesticated BEFORE this trait, when humans were hunter-gatherer, and *when Humans discovered agriculture both humans and dogs went through genetic changes to make them more suited to their new diet.*


The second theory is either described incorrectly by you or is itself incorrect. Genetics do not change due to diet. If I eat nothing but apples for the rest of my life my genes will not change over my lifetime. 

A proper way to look at it is to suggest that humans/canines who _already possessed genes_ that allowed them to digest and survive on a combined diet of meat and starchy foods were able to out compete the meat only group. Once agriculture was developed man was able to eat more regularly, and in turn the dogs who could benefit from the scraps ate better/lived longer. This is all survival of the fittest type stuff. Our genes don't mutate on demand.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

SFGSSD said:


> Laurie,
> How do you feel about supplements
> Flaxseed oil, vitamin E, vitamin C (This one is said to help with stress, no idea if it is true) do you feel supplements are necessary or do you feel it is a myth and over rated? Is there value in the supplements? Is there value in veggies?
> 
> ...


Ok this question is for anyone. We covered veggies. What about adding supplements? (See quote)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Wanderer said:


> Clearly dogs are designed to eat meat AND starch.


Look at that picture of the canine skull again. 

Their molars are NOT flat - so that they can not grind up vegetation and break it down so their system can process the nutrients.

Some of their molars don't touch and other overlap top to bottom:










Also, their molars are very narrow - no flat surface with which to grind.


Now look at the raccoon. Flat molars that come together almost perfectly. Makes grinding up vegetation much easier.











Just because an animal CAN eat something doesn't mean they NEED to eat that.

There's documentation of cows eating baby chickens and deer eating birds and even rabbits. That doesn't change the fact that they were designed by Nature to eat vegetation. Just because they something eat other animals as well doesn't suddenly make them omnivores.

It's not WHAT they eat that defines them - it's how they are designed by Nature.

Dogs have high prey drive - they are hunters. Their teeth are designed for grabbing, ripping, tearing, and shearing off flesh. Their stomach and digestive tract are designed to handle meat - the stomach is highly acidic and the digestive tract is very fast.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

SFGSSD said:


> Ok this question is for anyone. We covered veggies. What about adding supplements? (See quote)


If you are talking specifically about supplements with a raw diet - that question should go in the Raw Feeding forum, not here.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Look at that picture of the canine skull again.
> 
> Their molars are NOT flat - so that they can not grind up vegetation and break it down so their system can process the nutrients.
> 
> ...



then how do you explain this: Learning to love cereal was key to the evolution of dogs - The Washington Post

the evidence clearly shows dogs are different than wolves. They evolved to digest grains. Dogs will choose even if not starving to eat grains.


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## Wanderer (Apr 9, 2011)

amberb said:


> The second theory is either described incorrectly by you or is itself incorrect. Genetics do not change due to diet. If I eat nothing but apples for the rest of my life my genes will not change over my lifetime.
> 
> A proper way to look at it is to suggest that humans/canines who _already possessed genes_ that allowed them to digest and survive on a combined diet of meat and starchy foods were able to out compete the meat only group. Once agriculture was developed man was able to eat more regularly, and in turn the dogs who could benefit from the scraps ate better/lived longer. This is all survival of the fittest type stuff. Our genes don't mutate on demand.


I was speaking of humans as a population. You are right that 'need' doesn't make genes magically appear. However if the gene or multiple genes are already in population they will become more common as those who have them thrive and produce more offspring. Same thing can be said about the genetic change that is still ongoing regarding the ability to digest lactose as adults.


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## Wanderer (Apr 9, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Look at that picture of the canine skull again.
> 
> Their molars are NOT flat - so that they can not grind up vegetation and break it down so their system can process the nutrients.
> 
> ...


Nothing is 'designed by nature'

Everything is constantly evolving due to shifting needs and pressures.

Now, onto the skull pictures. It is a matter of degree. Sticking just within the Order Carnivore you have Brown Bear who has much more of a chewing setup of the teeth, you have the wolf which has specialized more toward meat but not entirely, and then you have the true super-carnivore the cat whose dentation is totally dedicated to meat.


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