# Pedigree or Dog



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just a quick question that came up after seeing a lot of the "mating test" questions pop up. To the more experienced people, that do work their dogs, or the breeders, and even the GSD lifers, do you care more about the pedigree when deciding on a litter or do you prefer to know the sire and dam?Now, I know this is hard to put into black and white. And at the total extremes I think I would lean towards the pedigree. Total extremes being, meet mom and dad great dogs, no pedigrees to see liniage and health information, and the other being never meet any of the dogs, but just have papers in front of you. Also lets assume that the parents are health tested and have great hips when you meet them, you just don't know what kind of hips the prior generations had.Actually, now that I think about it, I'd probably go with the parents I know. I'm just figuring that 10 puppies might have the same liniage, and who knows which ones are being bred or not, you could be ending up with the driviest, or the most timid dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Both. The sire and dam must be good, or else I wouldn't even consider the litter.

But the pedigree provides vital information regarding what to expect. First, it gives a chance to see if the parents are representative of their pedigree. Some dogs are not, and turn out the opposite of what the pedigree would indicate. Pedigree says A, but dog is B. When that happens, is the dog going to produce A or B in his offspring? That's a big question, especially if you like A, but not B. The dog and pedigree must go together somewhat. Then of course the pedigree gives insight into what other genes are floating around in the dog's gene pool, which may not be observable in the individual parents themselves, but could certainly come out in the progeny. 

Such as the hip example you gave. If the parents have great hips, but the pedigree indicates the opposite and the parents are not representative of their pedigree but rather their great hips are the exception, not the norm, there's a good chance that the pups are not going to take after their parents in that case.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Way to take the easy way out Chris! I understand its both, but if you only had the two extreme options, what would you go with?

Should've put that in the original post, no both!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't have the experience you describe but if I HAD to choose one, I'd choose pedigree. I say that because I nearly bought a puppy from oversees without the chance to meet either of the parents, so that would have basically been buying based on pedigree. I'd never buy a dog just because I met the parents and liked them, without knowing the lines.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Pedigree....do it all the time.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

martemchik said:


> and the other being never meet any of the dogs, but just have papers in front of you.


Isn't this done sometimes when people import a bitch in whelp? I didn't _think_ people flew to Germany to meet the parents every time they imported a pregnant female.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like the discussion of Genotype versus Phenotype that was a real b&^%^ to understand in an advanced Genetics course I took way back in college!

Unless someone has ferreted out the way GSD traits (both mental and physical) are passed along from parent to offspring, including if any are sex related; the discussion and debate is nothing but some opinions! Single versus multi gene traits are also involved somewhere as well!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'd go with pedigree. Then I'd come on here and ask about it, since I know pretty much nothing about reading pedigrees. lol


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Regardless of which way you choose, I think in the end you have to look at results over a period of time to support opinions. Luck only happens so long....ask the casinos!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i pick a reputable breeder and my worries are taken
care of. 



martemchik said:


> Just a quick question that came up after seeing a lot of the "mating test" questions pop up. To the more experienced people, that do work their dogs, or the breeders, and even the GSD lifers,
> 
> >>>>>do you care more about the pedigree when deciding on a litter or do you prefer to know the sire and dam?<<<<<


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you are buying or evaluating a dog ONLY the dog matters . Police depts or any ageny using a dog for work care only are interested in the character and ability of the dog in front of them. Pedigree is never questioned. 
On the other hand in breeding the pedigree is very important as the working material/clay/ingredients which will create with some high level of expectation a "type" of dog . Moreso than viewing an individual sire or dam who may be a flook be the best of a bad lot , or may be the result of environment and training and opportunity, can't reproduce positive qualities displayed because the material is not in the genes with any strength . Here the pedigree to a skilled reader reveals what is possible. On this forum we have many prospective pet owners agonizing over a pedigree when what they should be doing as doggiedad says is go to a breeder and judge the breeder by what they have been able to produce. Are they reliable in achieving their goals , are they able to evaluate the pups and are they able to understand , sometimes having to read between the lines the needs of the person or family looking to buy? And then there are situations where the forces of the pedigree exert themselves and management can alter the course into a better outcome . Nature and Nurture. 
Reading a pedigree is not counting the number of V's and VA's or SchH 3's .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This was all hypothetical, and like Carmen said, depending on the job at hand there are differing opinions. I was actually looking for opinions. When it comes to importing, I know that most of the time its all based on pedigree, but a lot of the time you also have heard about the dogs or have seen videos. You've spoken to the breeder who tells you what he thinks about the dogs (at least I would).

I guess the weirdness in my mind about looking at just the pedigree is that just because you expect one thing doesn't mean you'll get it. Like I've stated, there are more than one type of dog in each litter, and who knows which one is being bred at that point just by looking at the pedigree. I've read many amazing pedigree "reviews" by people on this website, but no one really knows which pup the sire/dam were in the litter.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I wasn't saying there are different opinions . I was saying there are different criterion. The end user only looks to see if the dog is capable of fulfilling his requirements . The dog is tested and a decision is made based on the results . Can the dog do A ,B, C. 
It does not matter if the rest of the litter are duds .

In breeding this would be critical information because it addresses the genetics . It is the quality of the genetics that you will be using to shape the next generation. The strengths of the pedigree are important and so are the weaknesses . These will determine best breeding partner combinations, or may even over ride use of the dog for breeding at all.
A good litter should be more or less uniform. There should be an even distribution of "good" , a soft "bell curve" .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Another reason I would choose pedigree over meeting the parents is because I'm kind of a hyper-critical picky person and often think that if I were to meet the dogs I really like on paper or admire from afar on the field I'd probably despise them after that. I think if I'd "met" Nikon's sire I probably would not have liked him, lol, but I LOVE my dog and want all my future dogs to be just like him. I do think a lot of how a dog acts is how it has been raised and trained and I don't want that to influence my decisions too much. To me it's mostly important to know that I *can* meet the parents (as in, they are not so aggressive that they want to eat up a stranger for no reason), but I don't necessarily have to in order to feel good about my decision.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have been doing some conformation judging, and I have found that I have to separate the dogs in front of me from their pedigrees. I have been offered beautiful dogs that I made excuses not to take because of their pedigrees. They would have made great show dogs, but I didn't want to use them for breeding.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

yeah, now take that. i don't know what all of this means
but i agree.



carmspack said:


> If you are buying or evaluating a dog ONLY the dog matters . Police depts or any ageny using a dog for work care only are interested in the character and ability of the dog in front of them. Pedigree is never questioned.
> On the other hand in breeding the pedigree is very important as the working material/clay/ingredients which will create with some high level of expectation a "type" of dog . Moreso than viewing an individual sire or dam who may be a flook be the best of a bad lot , or may be the result of environment and training and opportunity, can't reproduce positive qualities displayed because the material is not in the genes with any strength . Here the pedigree to a skilled reader reveals what is possible. On this forum we have many prospective pet owners agonizing over a pedigree when what they should be doing as doggiedad says is go to a breeder and judge the breeder by what they have been able to produce. Are they reliable in achieving their goals , are they able to evaluate the pups and are they able to understand , sometimes having to read between the lines the needs of the person or family looking to buy? And then there are situations where the forces of the pedigree exert themselves and management can alter the course into a better outcome . Nature and Nurture.
> Reading a pedigree is not counting the number of V's and VA's or SchH 3's .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The breeder and the pedigree. I'm not qualified to look at a dog or that dogs parents and make a sound judgement.

There are a lot of people on this forum that could do that maybe, but I doubt many who aren't breeders, trainers or heavily involved in sport could do that.

John Q Public including myself, forget it. I've looked at most of the breeders websites of breeders on this forum. They all look good to me and seeing them in person they would still all look good to me.

I might add that while I don't know for sure I doubt a lot of people involved in sport could pick just based on seeing the dog or parents of the dog.

If I was going to pick by visuals on the dog or parents I would want to take Anne also known here as Vandal with me.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Pedigree. If you are looking at a dog for sport or work I think that you REALLY have to know a dog to really judge if they are your cup of tea. Only sewing a dog on grass on their home field wont give you a good idea of environmental issues. Maybe a dog is too sleeve focused...but is that because of the dogs natural tendencies or becausehe has only been trained in prey and not balanced out? does the dog have control issues because they are really impulsive and batty or is it because they have a bad handler? I've seem the same dog on the same day work like 2 different dogs with 2 different handlers.

With that said....if there was something about a dog I really couldn't stand then I probably couldn't convince myself to get a puppy out of them.

Like lies....i might convince myself out of a dog if I spent some time with mom and dad and nitpicked stupid stuff.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Pedigree, but that pedigree is meaningless if a person doesn't know anything about the dogs beyond their names. If I was able to look at the parents and their siblings; the grandparents, what they have produced and also their siblings; I might consider a puppy without seeing the pedigree if my only criteria was for work.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Thats kind of what I was thinking. Does having all those titles behind a dog on a pedigree mean anything if you don't know what any of that means? Or what if it was all training that got the dog those titles and it really doesn't have the drive for the type of work you want to do. At this point the biggest benefit I see of the pedigree is the possible health of the dog, other than that you can really see the drives just by meeting the parents and figuring that you should expect a dog that is similar.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Without knowing more about those two dogs, the parents, no, I don't believe you can predict what you will get. The only time this might be predictable is if these two dogs have been bred together before and they produced a high percentage of what you are wanting.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I think the "right" answer should be pedigree.

Now, in my personal case, I don't know enough to choose a dog based on a pedigree, so I go for something that goes in between choosing for a dog or choosing pedigree: choosing a breeder.

I chose the breeder of my pup because I have great respect for his knowledge and because his dogs reflect what he preaches, so I must assume that if he chose based on pedigree alone (both imports) and he got what he wanted then he knows enough so I can trust his criteria.

Then if I want to chose by pedigree, I have to rely on the reviews of other, because I've not traveled around the world meeting the dogs in person nor lived long enough. But I think I know already enough to make a good educated evaluation myself of the dogs I have in front of my eyes and given I had the chance to know the parents in person I'd not have chose the puppy, no matter how good the pedigree could be, if I would haven't liked what I saw.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Genotype over phenotype, every time.


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