# Tug of War: If anyone is interested. This is my method (NILIF)



## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Just put up a video that I have been meaning to post for a long time. I have worked with Jaxon since he was 7weeks old. This Tug of War method works very well. Enjoy and please ask questions or critique. All welcome. 






Tug of War is a critical game to play with your dog from a very young age. Properly executed, tug of war can be a tremendous tool to building confidence and stabilization into your pack.

Step 1: Dog must sit and lie for play (NILIF)
Step 2: When dog sits alert and at attention, start tug of war game
Step 3: Let dog win 7 of ten times. You win 30% of the time. Always praise dog on winning.

By allowing your dog to win 70% of the time, you are establishing a great confidence in your dog. He is the man, he is winning.

By you winning 30% of the time, you are showing your dog that you control when he wins. His success is determined by you. You remain the pack leader, because you can win at any time you want.

You see here only praise rewards. No food rewards. Play and praise rewards. 

Dog is happy.

Pack leader is happy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Love the tugging, great job!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you still believe that winning/losing a game of tug establishes any kind of dominance or shows a dog that you're "in control"...you're still in 1990.

The only way I get the tug back from my dogs is by either an out command (which I rarely use anyways) or by choking them off the toy (makes them want it more).

There is really no need to play silly mind games with your dog about winning tug battles, who can/can't be on a couch, who eats first, ect. If you're a good "leader" your dog will fall right in line. There are very few dogs out there that will actually try to dominate their humans, and in general its because the humans are just confused about how to interact with a dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I use treats too in my training, certainly don't feel I'm less of a leader cause I just rewarded a fast 'sit' with a piece of cheese  

I love love love using a tug in training and I also let my dogs 'win' much of the time. But not because of me being dominant, more cause I want them to keep remembering the game is a GAME (training is a game) and fun fun fun.

I feel the best trainer utilize ALL the tools in their 'toolbox' that are available and appropriate for the level and skill you are working on. Praise, treats, tugging, etc. If I have ALL of them at hand then it makes me able to quickly adjust and try something else that may be better FOR THE DOG to make the training progress the best way for her. 

Frankly, tons of tiny treats give immediate and FAST feedback to my dogs to help training be clearer AND to allow me to quickly move into and onto something else. Much as I love and use tugging it tends to be a rather large break in the training chain. So I tend to use it more to excite them to train and to JACKPOT reward when training. I know that praise has the least value for my girls (but gives them information), then treats (better treats have higher value), then toys (better toys have higher value).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So another thing I noticed about your video…there is absolutely no drive building. Your dog gets to hold on to the toy and then you still command him to do things. Which is fine and he listens because he’s already trained, but an untrained dog will not do exercises with the reward in their mouth, it makes no sense to the dog to do that…they have their reward already, what else is in it for them? I would never command my dog to do anything if I can’t reward it since they already have the reward. This just leads to slow reactions and a lack of wanting to do follow the command. I want my dog to work quick, work in drive, and anticipate getting the toy at any moment and know that he/she has to do what I say as fast as possible in order to get the reward. If the dog already has the toy in their mouth…there is no anticipation, there is no incentive for the dog to react quickly to the command.

The theory behind a tug is that the dog gets the toy as it’s reward…it’s not the tugging, it’s the fight and then the win. Dogs are possessive, they like getting things, and even though some dogs enjoy the fight, the fight is just there to build more drive for the actual object not the interaction with the person. Many dogs will also come back to fight more, but they still mostly enjoy winning the actual object.

Sorry, but I would not recommend your method to anyone that’s actually training their dog. The way you tug with your dog is almost like a command and action in itself. It’s not really a reward to the dog IMO, it’s just something the dog has learned that you like it to do and so it does it.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

martemchik... How would you recommend building drive and/or having my pup do what I'm ask as fast as possible? I have a 15 week old puppy who has learned a ton already, and is super smart but I'd love to see him perform things faster.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i think you guys all take tug too seriously. i'll tell you why i play tug mith my dogs. 'cause they like it. nothing else. not to train, not to build drive and not to build confidence. if i'm sitting and one drops a toy in my lap they want me to throw it. if they keep the toy in their mouth and put their whole head in my lap they want to play tug. i'll start trying to pull the toy out of it's mouth and the tug begins. i let them win all the time. once in a while i throw in a drop it just to make sure they listen and release but then i say good and tug resumes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Different goals for different reasons Scarfish.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

well, steve. if people play it for different reasons then there really shouldn't be any debate on the proper way to play.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Yah, it's not that serious for us. Different techniques for different animals I suppose. Jaxon sits on the couch, sleeps in bed with his mom sometimes, etc. Basically a domesticated house dog. When dad gets home, he is bravo dog. With mom he is alpha dog, and that is the way I like it. 

If I had said drop it in the video, he would have instantly dropped it. 

One of the the things I like about forums is the wide range of opinions you get exposed to. It's a very cool thing. I am very happy to not know everything and I appreciate everything that you've all written here.

Interacting with people keeps me motivated to stay on Jaxon and keep him working for his supper.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This was posted in the "Training your puppy" section of the forum. Not the "play with your dog" section. So this is a person, that is offering advice to members (new and old) on how to train a dog and raise a puppy. IMO...this is a very incorrect way and won't get you anywhere. I think it's very important to point out the issues in this type of training and make sure people get all the information before they start using a certain method. Many people that have their first dog...blindly follow methods they see in various places. If no one says that the method is incorrect...there is a risk of new owners doing this and not getting the results they want.

If you post something on this forum, you should be open to criticism and debate about it.

As for dhaney81. Don't worry about a toy right now. Use treats. The puppy is too young anyways. If the dog is high enough drive, you'll see that when you introduce a toy, they will have a tendency to lose their mind and do anything you want for it. They're not really learning, they're just doing until they finally get the reward.

The way to build drive is to keep something away from a dog. Make a dog work harder for it, and reward only when the dog is working as hard as you want for that object. You can do this with a hot dog. Hide it in your hand, make the dog go after it. It can smell the hot dog, it just can't get it. It's going to start pushing into your hand, trying to get the hot dog, it might start nibbling at your hand (all fine IMO), it will try as hard as it can to get the hot dog. You can then lead the dog into different positions with that hot dog (always rewarding intermediately so the dog knows it will get something for listening/doing), and you can make the dog move quite quick for the hot dog. Like...pull the hot dog quickly over the dogs head, the dog will sit super fast, you reward for that super fast sit. Move the hot dog to the ground, the dog should lay down really quickly to get to your hand, reward when the dog does it really fast and the dog will continue to do it with speed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

scarfish said:


> well, steve. if people play it for different reasons then there really shouldn't be any debate on the proper way to play.


Thats kinda my point, but there are some things that improve the results, and the op did post it as training, not just having some fun.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

Thank you ImJaxon for posting this, I appreciate seeing all ways people play tug with their GSD's. The more variety in methods there are the better the chance for a new dog owner to find what works for their dog. Whether they are building drive or just playing.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

On top of all that...the biggest thing is that the video shows a TRAINED dog. A dog that knows what is expected and does it. Like I said, it's clear that the OP has trained his dog to "play" in this way. Sorry OP, but it's not very "natural" looking to me and I get to watch a variety of dogs on a weekly basis that get tugs/balls as rewards. The dog isn't working for the toy, the dog is barely working for the "fight" as well. It's just been taught that when a release word is given...I go over to dad and he grabs this thing in my mouth. 

If you watch other videos where tug is used as a reward, the dog will never have the toy in their mouth when doing exercises. The goal is to have the dog anticipate getting rewarded at all times and to do whatever is asked, as fast as possible, in order to get the reward. This is the basis of all dog training. Quick, accurate rewards. Dog does X, dog gets Y. Faster dog gets X, faster dog gets Y. Dog learns that. Handler than starts stretching when the dog gets the reward but the dog still anticipates getting rewarded at any time. Like say your dog can heel (with attention) for 50 steps. You probably worked that by rewarding short intervals at first (2 steps, then 3, then 5, ect) and have stretched it to 50. Once in a while, while heeling 50 steps, you still reward at 20 because that shows the dog it can get the reward at any time and it has to continue doing the expected action throughout the exercise.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Funny, it worked for Jaxon just fine. 

The best thing about advice, is it's just that. There isn't one way to train and work with dogs. The end goal determines the training technique.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

I gotta run, tons of errands to do for Xmas! Will check in later! 

Thanks for the advice!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

ImJaxon said:


> Funny, it worked for Jaxon just fine.
> 
> The best thing about advice, is it's just that. There isn't one way to train and work with dogs. The end goal determines the training technique.


And that's fine. If that was your goal, it worked. You did ask for a critique though, right? I look at it a little different, as far as what was said about the out. To me, that's probably the most important piece. The cleaner he outs, the sooner he gets the rebite which always seems like the real reward part of using it as motivation. Its also a big part of teaching them where to bite, and its where you build that anticipation, the capping, that you need in obedience.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ImJaxon said:


> Funny, it worked for Jaxon just fine.
> 
> The best thing about advice, is it's just that. There isn't one way to train and work with dogs. The end goal determines the training technique.


Again...your video didn't actually show how you taught a sit or a down by using tugging as a reward. It shows that you taught your dog how to tug in the way you wanted it to tug. I guess if that's the goal, that's fine. But I haven't had to "teach" my dogs to tug. They just did it naturally. What I did have to teach them, was the down, sit, heel, ect. The tug was then the reward because they naturally wanted the toy in my hand.

If your goal is to teach people how to tug with their dogs, I guess this works...but it still doesn't show HOW you taught your dog to tug (assuming he didn't naturally tug), it just shows a dog that tugs after running through a few simple obedience commands.

For other people...if your dog doesn't have enough natural prey drive to see the tug as a reward, I wouldn't force it on them anyways. Sure, you can kind of teach your dog to tug, but if it's not really fun for the dog, the dog will still not see it as a reward, just something the handler wants it to do. It won't work as hard as it can for that reward and so the training won't be as effective as it can be. Find what your dog wants/loves and use that in training. Don't worry about teaching a dog to tug because you see other people using the tug as a reward.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats kinda my point, but there are some things that improve the results, and the op did post it as training, not just having some fun.


to be honest, i didn't know it was in the training forum. i only browse this website by looking at the recent posts not by section. i guess i blew it.

i have seen though many times disagreements on how to play tug. you know, there's so many ways to train, each person is different, each dog is different. 

mart, your approach at constructive criticism was slightly harsh. rather than "good job but this way might help more!" you are more "your way sucks, nobody should follow this". c'mon bro it's christmas. merry christmas!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

scarfish said:


> mart, your approach at constructive criticism was slightly harsh. rather than "good job but this way might help more!" you are more "your way sucks, nobody should follow this". c'mon bro it's christmas. merry christmas!


c'mon bro I'm Jewish.

And it's not really about what worked for his dog. I could care less about that. The fact is, you're putting it out there for other people to use and it's basically like saying, "you should use my method." When there is no clear explanation of how you got to where you got, and why you got to where you got. What is the end goal with this type of training? I don't know. It just gives some numbers and for some reason has NILIF attached to it (even though this has nothing to do with NILIF).

I don't care what time of year it is, if you post what I believe to be bad information for other people to use, I'm going to point out that its bad information. YOU can use whatever method you want, but to show people that this is a method that works, without actually showing how it works (just showing an end result) doesn't make any sense. I've trained enough people and dogs in my short dog career that I know how people think and how they react to information (almost like sheep), so when I see something I don't agree with, I'm going to put it out there so that people know that this isn't really how a tug reward should work.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

To me its always been more of a reward system than anything. People get so caught up on the game itself they sometimes forget the point of it. It's about the fun. I like using misses and building drive and frustration and getting down and dirty and struggling with the dog but it isn't necessary for the dog or handler to have fun. It isn't a necessary part of teaching a down or a sit or a stand or whatever. 

Some dogs are rewarded just by having a tug and playing keep away or retrieves or shaking it out of your hand or any number of things. It's about rewarding the dog and as long as the dog finds it rewarding then more power to ya.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

The only time my dog wins at tug of war is when she drags me to the ground and then continues dragging me over to where she last dumped...and tries to drag me through it....otherwise..I just give her a simply "drop" and she releases.

These dogs are smart, I'm telling ya.

SuperG


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

IMO tug of war is a bunch of people holding a rope trying to pull each other over a line. what we play with our dogs is just tug.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> *Some dogs are rewarded just by having a tug and playing keep away or retrieves or shaking it out of your hand or any number of things.* It's about rewarding the dog and as long as the dog finds it rewarding then more power to ya.


This is why we tug and the action of play is the reward (just as my trainer suggested it could be used as) and it has worked well...it is a bit of mental & physical activity while we _do_ bond. I say, whatever works as play that is fun, go for it...my trainer told us to keep tug low and side to side as to not jerk his (Leo's) neck...although that goes out the window when we Chick-it---that pup can fly!!! I agree, Baillif, that if the dog is being rewarded (by treat or feat, as we say) then use it!!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Martemchik. ...I get exactly what your saying but the OP I don't think understands how to use tug/drive, perhaps doesn't see it so doesn't understand. If someone could post a video of someone using tug the way you describe and showing the difference of a dog in drive working FOR the reward, the OP might understand what your trying to explain.

The OP may continue to be happy play g with his pup this way but it would be great if he could see the difference and what you can accomplish.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A couple of questions somewhat on the same topic....using the tug game as a reward...is it the same as using a frisbee ? I remember a while back..watching this video Baliff posted that had this Mal performing very nicely and the use of a frisbee was part of the exchange ....is this the same type of "reward" or is the frequency of rewarding not practical as compared to tug?

My dog is gaga over the frisbee and after seeing that video...I have incorporated the bee in my training..whether it's a quick toss or a tug for a bit...This Kong frisbee really holds up well..

I read some posters talking "drive" and am curious..if the reward is particular to the behavior being worked on?

SuperG


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh I understand just fine. 

My dog was trained the way I want him. It is a complete success. 

My goal was to PLAY. We use tug as PLAY. 

My dog does everything I tell him on command.

The way we play tug, HE KEEPS THE BALL! Planned that way.

If I said "Drop it" he would drop it immediately. It's MY ball and he gets it when I give it to him. When I want it back, I ask for it, and he gives it to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause such a debate amongst you guys. Mods feel free to move this were it goes, it matters not to me. There's too many forums and I never really look at every place to see if I am in the right place.




Have a great holidays you guys!!!!!! Give your doggies some roast beef tomorrow. LOL. I'm sure that is a debate topic too.


Jaxon


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> A couple of questions somewhat on the same topic....using the tug game as a reward...is it the same as using a frisbee ? I remember a while back..watching this video Baliff posted that had this Mal performing very nicely and the use of a frisbee was part of the exchange ....is this the same type of "reward" or is the frequency of rewarding not practical as compared to tug?
> 
> My dog is gaga over the frisbee and after seeing that video...I have incorporated the bee in my training..whether it's a quick toss or a tug for a bit...This Kong frisbee really holds up well..
> 
> ...


Some people use the tug in a luring way to speed up a down or a sit or a stand by capping the dog into positions. If you watch Michael Ellis videos you can see it being done. I usually do that sort of thing with food and by the time I ask for behaviors with toy rewards it's already on a random reinforcement schedule.

When you saw that video with zebu that was just us playing, and although he was being asked for behaviors, his reinforcement schedule is massively higher in that video than it would typically be in training. Our process is compulsion driven (every error is punished except ones that would be unfair) so the rate of reinforcement does not matter significantly I could do the same video outside in the parking lot ask for all the same behaviors and not reward at all and he would be just as drivey about it because the behaviors are already classically conditioned to be fun and rewarding in and of themselves.

It's hard to explain but there's a shift in how things are done that goes from 
I do something to get something 
I do something to avoid something and I get something as a bonus
I am skilled and do something to avoid something in a gamey way and sometimes something great happens when I do it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think most mods would just as soon wrap gifts, go to church, have an evening with friends and family or whatever else tonight than moderate an argumentative thread


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I took a short video of Patton working for tug/toys this evening for a few basic commands, if it helps anyone to visualize. You know I like making videos.

It's raw and unedited, he's a little psycho for the disc and we never play tug inside so everyone is amped up. I'm not working on any precision training here, just a few items and rewards. 

So yes, you can definitely play with a Frisbee, SuperG! We do all the time. I used a Frisbee, ball on a rope, and slip lead to tug here. Notice the one or two times I let him win the toy he brought it back to me and hung out because he wanted to tug again.





 


martemchik said:


> c'mon bro I'm Jewish.


:rofl: :rofl:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

ImJaxon said:


> Oh I understand just fine.
> 
> My dog was trained the way I want him. It is a complete success.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to debate or knock what you do Jaxon. That's why I mentioned different goals. For me, tugging is why my dog follows voice commands with out any physical cue, outs cleanly, will down at a distance. Lots of things. For me its not just play, its a definite way of training specific behaviors.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

that is similar to what I do with our Patton. He is learning that the obedience commands are part of the game. Obedience can be so boring so I am hoping that pairing it with frisbee and such, it will be seen as part of a game. I don't tug frisbees. After a victory lap I give the Bring command and I expect a clean release, usually followed by at least one free launch so to reward the release. One time the release wasn't so clean and our game ended as I drove home with a finger wrapped in a bloody paper napkin.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSCe82eoDU

This is how I play. Only with "real" dogs.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

This link had a lot of the Michael Ellis 'engagement' tugging on it ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ime-owner/162230-engagement-key-training.html

I think adding tugging as a reward to keep dogs loving and wanting to train better, longer, more focused is something everyone should take advantage of.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Just offering another perspective. 
I am too far from a schutzhund club to make it there enough with my job commitments so I decided to try an online IPO class through Denise fenzi's online training school. Shade Whitesel teaches it. She is very good and the methods are differnt than what I have tried before, even the way she presents playing ball or tug. She does a lot of shaping, which I am trying hard to work my youngest mal through. He is very "go, go" and gets frustrated easily since I started with teaching him obedience the "Michael Ellis" way (food chasing, etc). He can only offer shaping behaviors for maybe 1-2 minutes tops before he runs around looking for something to stuff in his mouth and bump me with (to play). 

I don't know if I can push through to train entirely this way with him but I'm going to try. He is not a "thinking" dog, though he is very smart. My other mal does awesome with shaping and can fully pick up a complete behavior in 1 short session. 

Anyway, the point of me posting this is I just wanted to throw it out there for people looking to incorporate play into training sessions. Shade teaches this very well, and in a "no conflict" way. I had a TON of conflict with the out on the youngest mal, he is very, very toy driven anyway but was trained in detection his first 7 months of life and his reward was very possession based with a choke off. I am a small person and it just wasn't working when he wouldn't out to choke him off (and he won't trade for food all the time), not when he will turn blue before dropping his toy and weighs almost 70 lbs. I also struggled with "freezing up." Needless to say I needed another way to go and he is doing a ton better already with outing even though I have only worked on it for a few sessions. 

My relationship with my dogs is already better with Shade's methods, and I really like looking for ways outside of correction to fix problems. I am not against fair physical corrections at all, it's just nice when something else works 
(I swear I am not being paid to advertise that website either LOL)


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