# How did you decide? SL vs WL



## Verivus

So I'm on the fence between getting a WGSL or a WL pup. I love both, and I plan on having both one day, but I just don't know which to start with. This would be my first GSD (though definitely not my first big dog) and I don't plan on doing any showing/breeding/competition sports. I might TRY Schutzhund, but it's not on my agenda at this moment and is not an important part of making my decision.

So for those of you who were also faced with this decision, how did you decide? And what advice would you give me?


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## KZoppa

i dont think i have anything to offer you in the way of advice but if BOTH lines interest you, why not look for a breeder who combines the lines? I've come across a few WGSL/WL breeders who did all the health testing and titling but with what i know of WGSL, they work and title their dogs so i guess it would probably boil down to how much energy do you want the dog to have?


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## Verivus

The thing is, I'm fine with however much energy the pup may have since I'm active myself. And just to clarify, when I say WL I'm talking about East German/Czech working lines. I guess the only main difference I'm seeing personally is the coat color and topline (which, as long as it isn't severely roached, isn't much of an issue to me)... hopefully someone can give me some sort of advice.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Think it's great you are looking into this early. 

This ends up being such a personal decision I think you'd do well to find Sch clubs or breeders that you can visit and talk to people. Along with meeting their dogs so you can see, up close and personal, which type you prefer.


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## JakodaCD OA

It is a personal decision , as MRL said, go out and meet some dogs/breeders see what interests you and go with that.

I have always had working lines, just what I prefer

Good luck in your search


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## onyx'girl

KZoppa said:


> i dont think i have anything to offer you in the way of advice but if *BOTH lines interest you, why not look for a breeder who combines the lines*? I've come across a few WGSL/WL breeders who did all the health testing and titling but with what i know of WGSL, they work and title their dogs so i guess it would probably boil down to how much energy do you want the dog to have?


I truely do not think this is the way to go or good advice. Combining SL/WL is not bettering the breed, IMO.
I would look at pedigrees and see which ones will fit your lifestyle. And as posted above, go to GSD venues and see the different lines doing what they do best, talk with their owners and breeders if possible. 
Either SL or WL's can have lots of energy, the biddability and work ethic in the lines would sway me towards the WL. It all depends on what you want in a dog, lookwise and for a great companion. If you want a dog that is not high drive, the DDR's are another option and gorgeous.


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## GSDAlphaMom

As stated by several already, this is totally a personal decision. Go with YOUR preference. I love the showlines so the only decision I had to make was finding quality breeders with quality dogs. Narrow it down to your personal preference and then start looking for quality breeders. You will find good/bad in all the lines.


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## Emoore

I fostered a working line dog, fell in love, and adopted him. Now that he's at the bridge I'm buying a working line puppy. 

Really the best way to decide is to spend time with the dogs. You can't figure out which one you want by doing google searches and talking on message boards, you have to spend time with dogs.


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## atravis

onyx'girl said:


> I truely do not think this is the way to go or good advice. *Combining SL/WL is not bettering the breed, IMO.*
> I would look at pedigrees and see which ones will fit your lifestyle. And as posted above, go to GSD venues and see the different lines doing what they do best, talk with their owners and breeders if possible.
> Either SL or WL's can have lots of energy, the biddability and work ethic in the lines would sway me towards the WL. It all depends on what you want in a dog, lookwise and for a great companion. If you want a dog that is not high drive, the DDR's are another option and gorgeous.



And widening the riff between the two sides, further isolating the gene pool, is?

Both sides could due to benefit from the other. Its thinking like this that has created these massive splits.


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## KZoppa

atravis said:


> And widening the riff between the two sides, further isolating the gene pool, is?
> 
> Both sides could due to benefit from the other. Its thinking like this that has created these massive splits.


 
agreed.


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## JKlatsky

I have to say when we were first looking at German Shepherd puppies we were a largely uninformed buyer. We knew we wanted "german" and not American lines and we wanted a male.

The first puppy we looked at was a German Showline pup. Pedigree looked solid, breeders seemed alright, but something about the parents just didn't thrill me. Don't get me wrong. They were good looking dogs but they just lacked something that made me go Wow.

Then we went to look at Argos's litter- West German Workinglines. The pups were only 5 weeks old so there wasn't much to see there but the mother was excellent with her pups keeping them all together and very tolerant of us strangers handling them but I adored the Sire of the litter. We met him, a big dark sable male, with a lot of intensity. He looked at us (won't lie- at first scared me just a little because he was so intense in his eye contact), smelled us and said Hi, then ran around the side of the house and came back dragging a log. Dropped it at DH's feet and started to wag his tail, whine and bark. Saying "PLAY WITH ME PLEASE!!!". He played fetch with DH the entire time we were there. Outing politely when asked and never quitting. We were sold. 

It really is personal preference. It depends on what you like and it depends on the individual litters. You have to go visit dogs of different lines, different kennels, and get a feel for what you like. I know some people who love their showlines and that is just fine. But the sable workinglines really seem to have found a place in my heart.


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## eddie1976E

Someone said DDRs not high drive? I thought the DDR dogs were high drive and used for police/military work. 

thanks


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## KZoppa

eddie1976E said:


> Someone said DDRs not high drive? I thought the DDR dogs were high drive and used for police/military work.
> 
> thanks


the czech lines are pretty intense. from what i know of the czech lines they are high drive very intense dogs. DDR are working lines but i've heard they're not AS intense. the czech lines are the ones i usually see and hear about most often doing police work and border patrol. those who can explain better or have more knowledge please chime in.


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## KZoppa

JKlatsky said:


> I have to say when we were first looking at German Shepherd puppies we were a largely uninformed buyer. We knew we wanted "german" and not American lines and we wanted a male.
> 
> The first puppy we looked at was a German Showline pup. Pedigree looked solid, breeders seemed alright, but something about the parents just didn't thrill me. Don't get me wrong. They were good looking dogs but they just lacked something that made me go Wow.
> 
> Then we went to look at Argos's litter- West German Workinglines. The pups were only 5 weeks old so there wasn't much to see there but the mother was excellent with her pups keeping them all together and very tolerant of us strangers handling them but I adored the Sire of the litter. We met him, a big dark sable male, with a lot of intensity. He looked at us (won't lie- at first scared me just a little because he was so intense in his eye contact), smelled us and said Hi, then ran around the side of the house and came back dragging a log. Dropped it at DH's feet and started to wag his tail, whine and bark. Saying "PLAY WITH ME PLEASE!!!". He played fetch with DH the entire time we were there. Outing politely when asked and never quitting. We were sold.
> 
> It really is personal preference. It depends on what you like and it depends on the individual litters. You have to go visit dogs of different lines, different kennels, and get a feel for what you like. I know some people who love their showlines and that is just fine. But the sable workinglines really seem to have found a place in my heart.


 
thats exactly why i like the working lines. They just have what it takes for me. Not to knock on those who like the showlines american or german but working lines just do it for me.


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## onyx'girl

atravis said:


> And widening the riff between the two sides, further isolating the gene pool, is?
> 
> Both sides could due to benefit from the other. Its thinking like this that has created these massive splits.


I guess the showline breeders are more apt to add in the WL genetics to their program, but not the other way around. I agree, there is a problem with genetic bottlenecking in all lines, but to mix is not what I'd support. There are other options.
As far as my opinion on the DDR's I should have said they aren't extreme in their drives. They can have strong drive but not over the top. This link(I'm sure Verivus has already seen) explains what I meant.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html
German Shepherd Dog, East German Lines (DDR). This family was developed in East Germany from those dogs remaining in the East after WW 2. Those foundation dogs predated the show/working split of post-war West Germany, and *were not extreme in either conformation or drive.* The DDR dogs tend to show solid working structure with heavy bone and massive heads, and strong temperament. Some dogs can show a degree of sharpness. Overall, they tend to be very sound. Some breeders are attempting to preserve the pure DDR lines, but they are more commonly being integrated into the working lines with good success.
SG Alk v Osterburg Quell SchH3 DPO2 WPO Kkl1


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## Emoore

onyx'girl said:


> d. I agree, there is a problem with genetic bottlenecking in all lines, but to mix is not what I'd support. There are other options.


What options would those be? Not trying to be argumentative here, I'd honestly like to know. I thought the only way to increase genetic diversity was to bring in new blood?


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## Andaka

I have American Show Lines and have for 40+ years. The dogs I have now are sound of mind and body, and are everything I could want in a dog. 

I agree that the only way to know what you want is to meet as many dogs as possible. That is how you will learn what you like both physically and mentally.


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## onyx'girl

Sorry to go off the topic, RE; Emoore question:

Going with the kennels that have what it takes, but not the big-name big-money kennels is an option. So many breeders are all about that and not looking at what else is breedworthy...
like I said I think the SL breeders would be more into diversifying, not so much the WL trying to get "new blood"(SL) into their programs.


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## atravis

I believe in equilibrium. People love to waggle their fingers at the SL dogs, but the WL are _far_ from perfect. There are diamonds on both sides, and dirt on both as well. I believe there are far more outstanding SL dogs than people like to give credit for, and to NOT use their genes simply because they are show dogs is a shame. This "us against them" mentality only moves to hurt the breed, not help it.

Pedigree is important, I absolutely think it is, and breeding with a goal in mind is too... but at some point you have to look past the paper and at the DOG itself. SL, WL, that people will really overlook a fantastic animal because his parents were tan/black saddles that were born in America... is a shame, shame, shame.

I am not without bias. I don't like what has become of many of the SL dogs. Nor do I like any better what has become of many of the WL. You could not PAY me to own some of the dogs I've seen. Dogs who will stare only at a sleeve, and follow it barking all the way to the ground. Dogs so obnoxiously barky that their owners keep electrics on them at all times, just to shut them up on the field. Dogs who are so stubborn, that their owners beat them in the face, and kick and scream at them (which I'm not _at all_ convinced is the dog's fault, but here is a complaint strait for the very people who work these dogs... that they "have" to do these things in order for the dog to listen). Or dogs who are so unstable, that they will literally go for a bystander when they SHOULD be running the blind. 

I would take a quite, lazy, oversized SL dog before I would take one of the previously mentioned. Any day. And twice on Sunday. NONE of them are Max's dog, but at least I know which one I could live with on a day to day basis.

Mulder is a DDR/Czech cross. I feel I am lucky to have him, as he exemplifies everything this breed should be to me. He is not perfect, but he may be the closest I ever come, and I hope never to waste a day of him.


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## onyx'girl

Karlo is a WG WL/Czech cross~ I think he is the total dog(for me). As far as the OP's question "how did you decide" I decided that I wanted a WL because I wanted to do SchH with my next pup. I was in a club with mostly showlines(good lines, mostly Kirschental) but wanted a bit more drive and I love the dark sable color over the black and red. Something about the working line just told me that was the total dog. My preference.

This thread should not end up as a debate about SL/WL and really there should be no "debate"...it is all based on opinions of what we individually want in our companion.
I don't think more than 10% of GSD owners even participate in SchH in the US, so what they do on the field is pretty moot and many won't even know what you are writing about, atravis. 
I've never seen anyone in SchH training beat their dog in the face or kick and scream at them...wow, where do you train?


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## Ruthie

Verivus said:


> So I'm on the fence between getting a WGSL or a WL pup. I love both, and I plan on having both one day, but I just don't know which to start with. This would be my first GSD (though definitely not my first big dog) and I don't plan on doing any showing/breeding/competition sports. I might TRY Schutzhund, but it's not on my agenda at this moment and is not an important part of making my decision.
> 
> So for those of you who were also faced with this decision, how did you decide? And what advice would you give me?


Gator was a wonderful rescue dog that made me fall in love with the GSD. When he passed, my husband did a lot of research about the lines. We scheduled appointments to look at several litters of puppies from various lines. What made the final decision for us is that we wanted a dog without extreme angulation, healthy, and emphasis on correct temperament. The SL pups that we saw were ok, but lacked the spunk that Gator had and what WE believe to be a correct GSD temperament. 

I had some initial reservations that because I am still learning dog handling that a WL might be too much for me, but Trish (Bison's breeder) was really supportive and helped me with all my initial questions and concerns. We read a lot about how to raise a working puppy. Honestly say that with the good information that we got, Bison was not any more difficult to raise than our rescue or our golden mixes.

If you are interested in Schutzhund at any point, then I would strongly suggest you find a breeder that is involved in SchH to talk to. A good breeder will be able to pick from their litter a pup who would be appropriate for a new GSD owner that could still be invovled in SchH training.


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## Ruthie

atravis said:


> I am not without bias. I don't like what has become of many of the SL dogs. Nor do I like any better what has become of many of the WL. You could not PAY me to own some of the dogs I've seen. Dogs who will stare only at a sleeve, and follow it barking all the way to the ground. Dogs so obnoxiously barky that their owners keep electrics on them at all times, just to shut them up on the field. Dogs who are so stubborn, that their owners beat them in the face, and kick and scream at them (which I'm not _at all_ convinced is the dog's fault, but here is a complaint strait for the very people who work these dogs... that they "have" to do these things in order for the dog to listen). Or dogs who are so unstable, that they will literally go for a bystander when they SHOULD be running the blind.


I completely agree with you that both lines have their good dogs and bad dogs. But wow, sounds like you have have been around a lot of crapy trainers.


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## atravis

I have seen some things I would just as well gone my whole life without seeing, yes. I like the club I go to (the majority of them are wonderful), I would not want it to reflect badly on them, but what some of the members have done to their dogs, I would not wish on my worst enemy.


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## onyx'girl

_Dogs who will stare only at a sleeve, and follow it barking all the way to the ground. Dogs so obnoxiously barky that their owners keep electrics on them at all times, just to shut them up on the field. Dogs who are so stubborn, that their owners beat them in the face, and kick and scream at them (which I'm not at all convinced is the dog's fault, but here is a complaint strait for the very people who work these dogs... that they "have" to do these things in order for the dog to listen). Or dogs who are so unstable, that they will literally go for a bystander when they SHOULD be running the blind_... 

Then I guess you can't blame the _lines_ for the dog, shame on their handlers!


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## codmaster

atravis said:


> And widening the riff between the two sides, further isolating the gene pool, is?
> Both sides could due to benefit from the other. Its thinking like this that has created these massive splits.


Boy, I think that you hit the nail on the head! Do we, as lovers of GSD's, really want to see a further and probably deeper split in the GSD breed? If we keep it up, eventually we might end up with totally different dogs?

Which causes me to ask the question (from my ignorance) - WHAT ARE THE REAL DIFFERENCES WOULD ONE EXPECT AMONG PUPPIES FROM THE VARIOUS POSSIBILLITIES? 
I.E. US show, German show, German working, Chezch (sp?) working, Chezch show (is there such a thing?), etc. etc. 

As far as energy, aggressivness and protectivness, I have a 3 yo male US show dog from one of the top show kennels and i have never seen a GSD with more of these (BTW he is usually very friendly to the vast majority of people he meets, esp. kids and he loves puppies and even cats but other big dominant dogs not so much).

I can not imagine a GWSD with more of these characteristics than Baron but I am curious as to what the other "lines" would offer.

BTW we have had approx 8 other GSD's from BYB, top US show kennels as well as a son of a top German Sch 3 stud dog in the past 40 years in GSD's.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> I guess the showline breeders are more apt to add in the WL genetics to their program, but not the other way around. I agree, there is a problem with genetic bottlenecking in all lines, but to mix is not what I'd support. There are other options.
> As far as my opinion on the DDR's I should have said they aren't extreme in their drives. They can have strong drive but not over the top. This link(I'm sure Verivus has already seen) explains what I meant.
> Breed Types & Related Families
> German Shepherd Dog, East German Lines (DDR). This family was developed in East Germany from those dogs remaining in the East after WW 2. Those foundation dogs predated the show/working split of post-war West Germany, and *were not extreme in either conformation or drive.* The DDR dogs tend to show solid working structure with heavy bone and massive heads, and strong temperament. Some dogs can show a degree of sharpness. Overall, they tend to be very sound. Some breeders are attempting to preserve the pure DDR lines, but they are more commonly being integrated into the working lines with good success.
> SG Alk v Osterburg Quell SchH3 DPO2 WPO Kkl1


From what I can see many of the working line dogs could use some better conformation in them esp. their topline.

What I would like to see is more emphasis on the total dog both body and mind.

Used to be a while ago that a number of folks in the US would give high praise to the herding line bred dogs for the best total dog - don't know if that is still true but it made sense since they need both a great mind and a great standard body to trot after the sheep all day.


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## Verivus

Wow, thanks for all the replies everybody! I guess I should look into local SL and WL breeders in my area and spend time with them. And yes Jane, I've looked at that link (several times now!). I just love all the lines so far on paper/online... I guess I'll have to really see what I prefer in person. I know there's a few SL breeders and a few Czech breeders, but does anyone know of any DDR breeders close to Tucson, AZ? I haven't been able to find any.  And I know there's a Schutzhund club here, so I guess I'll take a look there too.


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## robinhuerta

Verivus,
The description of the "type" of dog you want...is easily what any sound GSD should be. You are not asking for any trait, that is most prominent in any bloodline. Those basic breed traits should NEVER be the "exception" in any bloodline, they should be the "norm".
We are breeders, and have both WL & SL dogs.....and I am confident in saying that ANY of my dogs share those simple traits. Both SL & WL's here, are EXPECTED to be of sound body & mind.....capable of doing what is required of them.
Find a good breeder, choose the "type" of GSD that YOU desire.....you should be able to find a puppy with the breed inherited traits that you require. Both bloodlines make wonderful dogs!
Best wishes!
Robin


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## Anja1Blue

There are relatively few breeders now of "pure" DDR dogs. And none that I know of in AZ. If that is what you decide you want, you will most likely have to go out of State (vom Banach in the Pacific NW is a breeder I have heard good things about.) I agree with the OP who said to get out and about, talk to breeders talk to owners. I had a lot of help from a neighbor when I got my first GSD - she steered me towards a first rate breeder here in Colorado, who bred both WL and SL (but did not mix them.) I went to her club, I went to Trials, I went to shows. I talked to a LOT of people before I decided that the GSD was right for me - it isn't right for everyone, and I wanted to be sure that I could provide the mental and physical stimulation - plus the human companionship - this breed needs. Years later I have owned both WL and SL, all have been great. But I've done something with each one also - Schutzhund, AKC Rally, advanced OB, because each and every one of them needed a job! Good luck in your search.
___________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## LARHAGE

I agree, any good well bred German Shepherd should be able to do any of the tasks the OP is contemplating, I prefer the looks of the WGSL so that is what I have, but he is a rock solid individual and has been able to do anything asked of him, I show him in SV shows and he has been very sucessful, he's also doing Schutzhund and is a natural there as well, last weekend with his breeder handling him he earned his Championship at one show at a UKC conformation show, than came back the next day and won the Weight -pulling class pulling over 500lbs, he had never done that before, he also is a
great dog to run along with me on trail riding my horse, he's everything I have ever wanted in a German Shepherd, and gorgeous to boot


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## Lesley1905

I agree to go and visit different lines and see what is best for you. My family has always had working lines so thats why I went with them. My boss has american show line and Romeo is beautiful, calm and intelligent.


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## gagsd

Verivus said:


> Wow, thanks for all the replies everybody! I guess I should look into local SL and WL breeders in my area and spend time with them. And yes Jane, I've looked at that link (several times now!). I just love all the lines so far on paper/online... I guess I'll have to really see what I prefer in person. I know there's a few SL breeders and a few Czech breeders, but does anyone know of any DDR breeders close to Tucson, AZ? I haven't been able to find any.  And I know there's a Schutzhund club here, so I guess I'll take a look there too.


The best advice I can give is what others have said about visiting different dogs in person. Go to schutzhund trials and clubs, AKC shows, obedience trials..... anyplace you can find to meet the dogs. 
As to DDR lines, there are plenty of breeders around. Many of these breeders are only breeding dark sable, big-headed dogs because there is a market for them. So be choosy.

Being the owner of two Czech/DDR males, and two Czech females, these lines can be very high energy. My males both have plenty of aggression, with one being quite sharp on top of that.
"sharp" and aggressive" together can be a huge problem if you as the owner are not equipped to deal with it. And as a puppy/young dog, this was not apparent. So finding a breeder who really knows the lines can be a huge help.


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## Liesje

I like both, so I go back and forth. First dog was a working line. Second dog, I actually was thisclose to buying a working line, but went with a show line. Glad I did, love my dog. Third dog, back to working line (and purchased from the breeder I intended to buy from earlier). Next dog, maybe a show line....

I love both but don't really see the need to combine. A few people have done it and done it well but at this point it's almost like combining breeds, you can't really predict what you are going to get, there's way more trial and error.

I am glad that when I started looking again about a year ago I was "due" for a working line dog. Don't get me wrong I LOVE my show line dog but over time I am finding more and more things among the show line culture that I don't want to be a part of. It really has nothing to do with the dogs, or any one person or kennel or incident in particular but in general the kennel blindness, cattiness, politics, and downright ignorance about what constitutes a good working dog began grating on my nerves. NASS 2010 was really the final straw for me and if people don't understand what I'm talking about then it just proves my point. Again, it's not really the dogs but the people that are driving me away. Also right now I can find as many working line dogs that I am happy to show in the show ring than I can show line, so as of right now there is no advantage for me getting a show line dog other than I like a black and red dog.


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## Verivus

Liesje said:


> I like both, so I go back and forth. First dog was a working line. Second dog, I actually was thisclose to buying a working line, but went with a show line. Glad I did, love my dog. Third dog, back to working line (and purchased from the breeder I intended to buy from earlier). Next dog, maybe a show line....


I was thinking of doing this as well. Start off with one and get another after a few years. I'm leaning more towards the working lines (personal preference) for now, but I'm still planing on visiting some breeders and clubs to get a better feel for which may be better suited to me.


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## BlackGSD

The choice between SL or WL was easy for me. I don't like the looks of the show line dogs. Nor do I like Black and Red or tan. No offense to those that do. I know plenty of folks that don't like sables or solid blacks or working lines in general which is what I have and that is fine. 

Since you like both, I would say meet some dogs from the lines you like and see if you end up with a preference that way.


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## doggiedad

i bought a SL (West German) because of looks
and color. lots of people say you shouldn't buy
a dog based on my reasons.


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## Elaine

This was very easy for me too, I don't like the structure of the SL dogs with their banana backs and bunny feet and lower drives, just how I see them. I wanted a healthy dog with good structure and good drive so the WL dog was the best option and couldn't be happier now that I have one. Wish I had found WL dogs a long time ago as they are what I always thought a GSD should be. 

I have had several american dogs and as much as I loved them for themselves, none of them were healthy or had any drive. The american SL dogs that are in my area are all structural disasters with zero drive and I would never get one of them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This is exactly where I was at 6 months ago.

I've had GSDs in the past, 20 years ago American Showline who was just the sweetest of sweethearts (but lots of health issues) and a rescue of dubious ancestory.

I've not spent a lot of time with formal dog training/experience as I was very involved with horses. I got out horses and decided it was time for my first 'serious' German Shepherd. At first I looked at working lines because I prefer their athletic build and they seem to be healthier. I also learned the you have to be very careful with workinglines to not get too much dog (especially for newbies like you and I). 

I visited workingline kennels and Schutzhund training clubs to learn more about the dogs. Well trained but just not what I was used to and like you training Schutzhund is not a top priority for me at this time.

Then I spoke with Yuliya at VonLotta kennels and explained what I was looking for, she was very understanding and said "You'll have a better chance of getting the right type of dog for you if you stay with WG showlines". I don't care for the extreme angulation but found an older female puppy who has only slight angulation/sloping topline. My trainer evaluated her and liked her. 

I have a neighbor with Czech working line dog and the trainer said (I quote here) "He's a nice dog but too much for the owner, good thing he's retired and has the time and money to train him" 

I don't have the time and money to work with a really high drive intense dog so I stacked the odds in my favor and went with West German Showlines. Thus far I've been very happy with my puppy, she's a little handful sometimes but at the end of the day she's sweet and wants to please.

Health and temperament are the top two considerations. I felt that WGSL was the best combination for me and my family at this point in time. Not to say that won't change some day as a well trained working line Schutzhund dog is a joy to watch working!

I hope this helps and wish you best of luck in your search. 





Verivus said:


> So I'm on the fence between getting a WGSL or a WL pup. I love both, and I plan on having both one day, but I just don't know which to start with. This would be my first GSD (though definitely not my first big dog) and I don't plan on doing any showing/breeding/competition sports. I might TRY Schutzhund, but it's not on my agenda at this moment and is not an important part of making my decision.
> 
> So for those of you who were also faced with this decision, how did you decide? And what advice would you give me?


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## Verivus

Thanks Gwenhyfair, I appreciate where we are similar in many circumstances. The main conflict I'm having is where I may get 'too much dog' in a working line, like you mentioned. I'm planning on going and seeing a Czech working kennel and a WGSL kennel in the same city two hours away from me two weeks from today so we'll see how that goes! And after that I'm getting in touch with my local schutzhund club and will observe them working their dogs, chatting with them, and seeing what they recommend.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I tell you it wasn't an easy decision. Watching some of those Schutzhund dogs...well they just rock! Love watching them train and work. The people I spoke with at the local Schutzhund club were a little bit biased, of course.  Rightfully so....but sometimes it's good to just listen to them chat about life with their dogs. It's different then the average laid back mutt puppies I was used to!

Good Luck AND Please keep posting updates as you do your research. 

(p.s. my neighbor's Czech is real looker too! The first time I saw him I stopped my neighbor and said where did you get that dog? I had done enough research to recognize that his dog was not a showline or BY breeder dog.. He didn't realize what he had! I sent him right off to our local Schutzhund trainer and they are doing really well, enjoying the training but he leaves the dog for a lot of boarding/training too.)




Verivus said:


> Thanks Gwenhyfair, I appreciate where we are similar in many circumstances. The main conflict I'm having is where I may get 'too much dog' in a working line, like you mentioned. I'm planning on going and seeing a Czech working kennel and a WGSL kennel in the same city two hours away from me two weeks from today so we'll see how that goes! And after that I'm getting in touch with my local schutzhund club and will observe them working their dogs, chatting with them, and seeing what they recommend.


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## Liesje

I've had a bit of a different experience. The two show line puppies I've had so far (and the show line puppies I know well through good friends) were all far more hyper, mouthy, and more work than my working line puppy and many of the other working line puppies I know. The SL often have a LOT of prey drive and that combined with less clear-headedness and often more nerve does manifest itself even at 8 weeks old. I know I'm not just "seeing things" because *everyone* I know (family and friends that are NOT dog/GSD/SchH people) has commented on how much more laid back and mellow that my working line puppy is compared to my show lines. It's not that he has less drive or less energy, but it is clear to me already that he is very clear-headed and has more of an on/off switch to his drives. He doesn't have neurotic prey drive. He is not mouthy at all, it's not even something I've had to really work on, he just doesn't do that stuff. He is very social, confident, and curious but he transitions between different environments very quickly (quiet in the crate, sleeping in the car, running around having fun outside, etc). He will actually do obedience in a high drive state for longer than my titled 2 year old, but he is overall more "settled" in the head. It's hard to explain but if you observed both my dogs you'd understand.

There's really no reason a working line puppy is "too much dog" especially compared to many show lines. The important thing is for a buyer to understand what type of dog they want and get THAT dog. If you want a sound, content, mellow puppy then don't get one that has high prey drive and a low threshold.


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## onyx'girl

I understand exactly what you are describing Lies, because my WL is the same way. 
Funny how so many will describe WL as over the top energy and no off switch.
I think they are more "think before acting" if they are well bred.
And a dream to train because they are so biddable to their handler.


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## Liesje

LOL Jane, Pan reminds me of what I remember from Karlo when he was that age. Karlo was/is always very calm and collected.


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## codmaster

I would think that there is probably much more variation in drive and energy, etc. between individual dogs than one could see between "lines" - just like we would see great variations among individuals than between breeds. the advice to see individual puppies and to trust your breeder to meet your stated requirements is the best advice (if you trust your breeder and you shouldn't be buying a puppy from them if you don't).

Our US showline (big famous kennel) male GSD has a GREAT deal of energy along with a great prey drive and in the words of his behaviorist is "the most confident dog that she has ever seen" - he is a very "hard" dog also and handles corrections exceptionally well - hasn't backed up a step in his life I don't believe - yet he is from totally AKC show lines. Individual dog - as his two littermates that I have seen and met are not like him at all!


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## Liesje

There's always variation but overall I see more and more that the lines and types can fairly consistently fall into categories.

I think one problem is lumping together certain characteristics. For example, hyper does not mean drive. Not being able to settle does not mean intensity. Confidence in normal day to day situations and training might not translate into courage to push through pressure and real threat. There's all these dozens of drives and temperament traits, and THEN you have to also examine the dog's triggers and thresholds. For example, a dog with high defense drive and a low threshold acts quite different from a dog with high defense but a high threshold.


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## Jason L

Just another example of what Lies is talking about. Ike's drive is very big and he is also a bit wild on top of it. But he is not a go-go-go type dog. Energy wise he is just middle of the road. When he is done working/playing, he will just go and take a nap and you won't hear a peep out of him for 5-6 hours. Likewise, at home he is a pushover, a beta dog through and through and but put him on the field and he turns into something completely different.


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## codmaster

Just like different breeds - i.e. if you want a bird hunting retriever one wouldn't pick a GSD (most wouldn't - people here might!) but SOME GSD's would be great at it. Same token if you want a protection dog most wouldn't pick a Lab but i saw one once who was great at it.

If i want a Sch dog to train and show I wouldn't first look at US show lines or a BYB, but there are a lot of them doing it.

But if i wanted a seeing eye dog, I wouldn't want a Eur. WL dog as my first place to look either; or if I wanted just a pet for my kids probably wouldn't look there first either.

Just an opinion!

And then of course there are folks who know that their choice is best for all types of jobs of the GSD and everyone is welcome to their opinions!


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## GSDElsa

Third example of what Lies and Jason are talking about...

I was at a Christmas party this weekend where a dog who has been to WUSV lives. He was walking around the house giving air kisses to everyone and asking for butt rubs. Including a helper that has worked with him.

Sure is a crazy out of control WL SchH dog if you ask me.


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## robinhuerta

I don't have the same experience as Lies does with the show line dogs...
I DO have puppies with drives (for sure)..but I don't have puppies without an "on & off" switch...so I can't agree with your overall observation of the lines.
As a matter of fact, we gave a very close friend (who trains Police K9s), her "pick" of a litter. She wanted a male, and there were 2 to choose from. The 6mo male that she has goes everywhere with her including work (Police dept)...and attends the classes of PP & the K9s maintenance services. ALL the handlers & the trainers are very impressed by this young dogs confidence, temperament & calmness.
Although I have had dogs in the past of both WL & SL that were more "hectic" as others would put it.....they are not dogs that I would classify as a bloodline in general.
I can not live with ANY dog, that does not have the ability to "channel" their drives, and exhibit a "calm" character when needed.
Robin


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## Emoore

This is just my personal experience, but to me the difference has less to do with energy and calmness than it does the _need_ to do a job. 

The show/pet lines dogs that I've worked with were happy with exercise and basic obedience. The working ones really needed to have. . . . for lack of a better word, a higher purpose. Even if it was just bringing in the newspaper every morning and carrying things back and forth for me, they really needed to feel useful. They weren't happy just going for walks and chasing the ball.


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## gagsd

I recently led a puppy obedience class. We had a Cavalier, a Sheltie, an Italian Spinone, and others. These puppies were VERY quiet compared to my mostly Czech line puppy. The GSD puppy (ASL) that was in the class was the most energetic, but still had nothing on my girl.

What I am trying to say is it is relative, depending on your background. 
If you have been around puppies of the Shetland Sheepdog variety, then a GSD puppy may be a huge wakeup call, particularly an energetic, pushy, drivy one.

I see too many people get a young, active, exuberant puppy and get way more than they thought they were getting. Then the puppy gets more mature, and starts showing some aggression, and the owners freak out.
That is why I feel it is so important to see the different types for oneself.


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## Xeph

I currently have a dog that is primarily German Show lines, as well as a puppy that is American show lines. We're purchasing a working line next year. Personally, I enjoy all 3 for different reasons. If it weren't for the roached backs in so many of the German show lines (and the lack of color variety), I'd get another in a heartbeat.


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## PaddyD

I purchased my ASL puppy from seeing her picture posted in the German Shepherd Dog club site. I was able to meet the breeder, see the dam and meet the puppy. (You can see in my album). It was love at first sight. I was ignorant about all the different lines, just wanted a GSD. Glad I didn't try to over-analyze the possibilities. It would have become "should I do this, should I do that.... will I regret my decision?" Sometimes ignorance is bliss .... If you're lucky.


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## lhczth

I have owned, worked, titled, handled and LIVED with working lines for almost 26 years. I have spent a lot of time around pretty much every line of GSD out there. I am a working dog person. The show lines offer me nothing that I can not get elsewhere including correct working structure and diversity. 

Go out and spend some time around the dogs and then chose what fits you best.


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## PaddyD

Emoore said:


> This is just my personal experience, but to me the difference has less to do with energy and calmness than it does the _need_ to do a job.
> 
> The show/pet lines dogs that I've worked with were happy with exercise and basic obedience. The working ones really needed to have. . . . for lack of a better word, a higher purpose. Even if it was just bringing in the newspaper every morning and carrying things back and forth for me, they really needed to feel useful. They weren't happy just going for walks and chasing the ball.


My show/pet ASL must be an exception. She is always inventing games for herself to have something to do. When walking in the woods she immediately finds a stick and brings it to me to throw for her to find and retrieve. The harder to find the better. In the house she finds something to carry in her mouth while she plays soccer around the house with a tennis ball.


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## Smithie86

Gabor has had working lines for...a LONG time  All his life. Plus, working in the military in the K9 unit and training/competing in SCH since his teens. That is all he has owned himself. He has trained and titled showline dogs.

I grew up with working lines, in Calif, around some of the 1st schutzhund clubs. Great exposure back then, but did not realize it until later. Have had working when got back into it, with the exception of one showline female (3-3 Cello) that worked very well (trained and titled by Gabor) that I co-bred with a female that I had (from someone who got out of dogs - Cim Ecnk daughter). 

All working lines.. Focus is 1st on temperament and health. Then not only training and competing/titling, but showing and breed survey. Dogs do well around people, in Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc.....


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## onyx'girl

I'd like to know which lines tend to be healthier. I have a BYB mixed line(she looks like WL and an Am. pet) and has severe allergies. 
Which lines seem to be prominant for better overall health? 
When I researched lines for my future pup that was one of the main things I was looking at...and from what I gathered the DDR's and East lines tend to be quite healthy overall, structure, physical and temperament(mental). Opinions?


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## Smithie86

Enzo is the oldest of ours at 8.5. Excellent movement, muscled etc. Was training and competing up until 7. He is 1/2 German and 1/2 Czech.

That is one thing that we look for in breeding, both our dogs and outside dogs. Physical health, movement, no faults and no allergies.


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## Emoore

Unfortunately, it's practically impossible to selectively breed for good health in old age, and long lifespan. By the time you know those things the dog is past its breeding prime.


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## onyx'girl

Looking at the progeny produced should give an indication of overall health of the lines, IF the breeder is honest. One reason I went with who I did, all the past breedings were available on the website, along with references of owners of them after I was ok'd to possibly get a pup from the planned litter.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I must have missed it, did someone in this thread say something about 'crazy out of control WL dog'?





GSDElsa said:


> Third example of what Lies and Jason are talking about...
> 
> I was at a Christmas party this weekend where a dog who has been to WUSV lives. He was walking around the house giving air kisses to everyone and asking for butt rubs. Including a helper that has worked with him.
> 
> Sure is a crazy out of control WL SchH dog if you ask me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...and one more comment. When attending Schutzhund training sessions, speaking with participants, trainers AND breeders they all were pretty honest about one needing to be careful about the dog they selected. It was a schutzhund trainer who works with two of the largest groups in my area who also pointed out that you can get too much dog.

At the end of the day selecting by breeding, pedigree, lines is about _stacking the odds in your favor_. There is no guarantee and I think most people who are sincere about trying to get the right dog are aware of that.


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## Liesje

I guess the question is, what do people mean by "too much dog"? If it's a dog that is always go-go-go, never settles, destroys the house, barks at everything that moves, can't be trusted with other people or any one or combination of the aforementioned, I don't want that either, but those don't automatically come along with a dog that brings good active aggression, a good balance of drives, and works when he needs to work. You can have a dog that is very strong and powerful and fights hard through pressure that is not any more difficult to manage than many showline dogs.

Those people are right, we DO need to be careful, and part of that is not assuming that showline automatically = more laid back, middle of the road, less energy and less drive.


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## JKlatsky

It really is interesting to see everyone's different experience with the Showlines. 

My experience is that they have not necessarily had less energy or were more laid back. My experience was that their energy was present but generally harder to channel into a specific motivation than the working line dogs. And I also found the comment about lots of prey drive interesting because most of the showline dogs I've met had to be worked a good deal more in defense in protection because their prey drive was pretty minimal. Most of the good showline males I have encountered could get pretty nasty in their guardwork and were fairly tough dogs. Most around here do not seem to have much in the way of flashy/speedy obedience, at least not in comparison to the working line dogs. I also think we shouldn't confuse drive with trainability. I've seen many showlines that were lovely trainable active dogs. SchH champions? No. But still not bad dogs by any stretch of the imagination. 

Like anything other line there is a spectrum. A person should not be too quick to dismiss a dog just because of it's pedigree. It's not like the dogs can read them anyway...

And another thought...Any dog can be too much dog if you are not enough owner.


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> ............. You can have a dog that is very strong and powerful and fights hard through pressure that is not any more difficult to manage than many showline dogs.................


Aren't you also guilty about assuming that the dog you describe above is a WL dog? There are many conformation bred dogs that would meet your description above.

Just as we cannot just assume that a WL dog would be very drivey, and have a great temperament; we should not assume that the SL will not have a correct temperament in addition to a strong conformation.

As I have said, although there may be cerrtain general characteristics that we can see in the WL and some other characteristics in a SL dog; we need to consider the individual dog to make a good choice.

For example I don't think I would look first to a WL breeder if I was looking for a great conformation show dog; but I would equally not look to a SL top kennel if I wanted a dog to be a great ScH trial competitor.

But i would also not be surprised in an individual dog from either place could do very well in the others speciality.

Equally, however, I would also not be surprised if the great individual dog could not produce offspring equal to itself in the others speciality.


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## Whiteshepherds

JKlatsky said:


> And another thought...Any dog can be too much dog if you are not enough owner.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Liesje

JKlatsky said:


> My experience is that they have not necessarily had less energy or were more laid back. My experience was that their energy was present but generally harder to channel into a specific motivation than the working line dogs. And I also found the comment about lots of prey drive interesting because most of the showline dogs I've met had to be worked a good deal more in defense in protection because their prey drive was pretty minimal. Most of the good showline males I have encountered could get pretty nasty in their guardwork and were fairly tough dogs. Most around here do not seem to have much in the way of flashy/speedy obedience, at least not in comparison to the working line dogs. I also think we shouldn't confuse drive with trainability. I've seen many showlines that were lovely trainable active dogs. SchH champions? No. But still not bad dogs by any stretch of the imagination.


I agree with this at least based on my experience working a few of both. The show lines seem to have prey drive and toy/ball drive but to me protection is *always* a different animal regardless of line. Your statement does describe my showline - he has a higher threshold and works primarily in defense, that is what he will fall back on. His prey drive in _protection _is still developing and coming out. However in obedience his prey drive and ball drive borderlines on neurotic.

codmaster, I am not dismissing showlines I'm just trying to be honest with myself. Currently the dog I'm working and trialing with is a showline dog and there's not much I'd change about him even if I had the chance. I've also had a working line dog with a nice pedigree that was a total SchH washout. Very obedient dog, prey drive, GREAT tracker but the dog could not take one fingertip of pressure in any form from any person.

Conformation is very subjective. I got my showline dog for performance events (mostly agility, some other types of obedience, club level Schutzhund...) and I got my current working line with conformation in mind and have already shown him (he's almost 4 months). Currently, there are just as many working lines producing the type of conformation I like to bring into the ring as there are showlines.


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## Smithie86

Our "crazy, out of control" working line (4xwusv,3xfci) is hanging in the house.


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## gagsd

Smithie86 said:


> Our "crazy, out of control" working line (4xwusv,3xfci) is hanging in the house.


Mine is on the couch...... but he did eat the previous one.


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## holland

Mine did too...and she used to dive bomb her sister from the couch-maybe she thought she was the red baron


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## Gwenhwyfair

And us newbies who take the time to research can only go by what the more experienced people tell us, which often turns out to be conflicting information (btw). Everyone has a preference for one reason or another.

GAGSD said it best earlier, people get an exuberant puppy and then other tendancies come out and the owners don't know what to do.

I think overall this has been an interesting and balanced thread where people are talking about _potential_ pros and cons. I thought the tone of _most_ posts to be informative, even and fair.

In red below, therein lies the problem. In my pet care business the most difficult and frankly down right dangerous dog I've ever had to care for was a East German Working line intact female. The owners did not train nor provide the proper excercise and she was a basket case. I learned my lesson, they liked to brag about her pedigree/background but to actually work with her....they wouldn't they couldn't. It was awful and I felt really really bad for the dog.

btw - The trainer I'm working with told me the showlines can be 'edgey' at times but it varies from dog to dog. I haven't been around them enough, so I just keep working on the things my trainer has told me to do and reading and talking to other owners and keep my fingers crossed it all works out in the end with a happy obedient well balanced dog.



JKlatsky said:


> It really is interesting to see everyone's different experience with the Showlines.
> 
> My experience is that they have not necessarily had less energy or were more laid back. My experience was that their energy was present but generally harder to channel into a specific motivation than the working line dogs. And I also found the comment about lots of prey drive interesting because most of the showline dogs I've met had to be worked a good deal more in defense in protection because their prey drive was pretty minimal. Most of the good showline males I have encountered could get pretty nasty in their guardwork and were fairly tough dogs. Most around here do not seem to have much in the way of flashy/speedy obedience, at least not in comparison to the working line dogs. I also think we shouldn't confuse drive with trainability. I've seen many showlines that were lovely trainable active dogs. SchH champions? No. But still not bad dogs by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> Like anything other line there is a spectrum. A person should not be too quick to dismiss a dog just because of it's pedigree. It's not like the dogs can read them anyway...
> 
> And another thought...Any dog can be too much dog if you are not enough owner.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...and as luck would have it, while at petsmart for socialization exercise last night I bumped into a very interesting man who was there with his Belgian Malinois puppy. He knew the local schutzhund trainer I know and also competed and trained dogs in Missouri. We chatted, his puppy was beautiful and very well behaved. He told me he also had three Czech working line GSDs but that as he put it ....he would be 'slapping a for sale sign on them' and sticking with the Malinios. I asked him why? He said he's getting out of GSDs that even the working lines weren't worth their salt anymore mostly because of conformation and temperment issues. He said you must really study the lines and be very careful....surprised me and I thought about this thread. 

Don't get mad at me...I was just chatting with this fellow he was the one who dismissed the working lines not me!


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## Liesje

Well, plenty of GSD people won't touch a Malinois with a ten foot pole!


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> Well, plenty of GSD people won't touch a Malinois with a ten foot pole!


Amen to that. I've seen some nice Mals that I wouldn't mind taking home, and I've seen some nut jobs that make me wonder. 

There is no breed with every specimen a perfect example.


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## Jason L

I have met people who have switched to mals because they believe malinois in general have less health problems. Never heard of anyone who switched from WL GSD to mal for conformation reason ...


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## holland

GAGSD said it best earlier, people get an exuberant puppy and then other tendancies come out and the owners don't know what to do.


Really cause I always knew what to do - I laugh a lot more these days


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## codmaster

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and as luck would have it, while at petsmart for socialization exercise last night I bumped into a very interesting man who was there with his Belgian Malinois puppy. He knew the local schutzhund trainer I know and also competed and trained dogs in Missouri. We chatted, his puppy was beautiful and very well behaved. He told me he also had three Czech working line GSDs but that as he put it ....he would be 'slapping a for sale sign on them' and sticking with the Malinios. I asked him why? He said he's getting out of GSDs that even the working lines weren't worth their salt anymore mostly because of conformation and temperment issues. He said you must really study the lines and be very careful....surprised me and I thought about this thread.
> 
> Don't get mad at me...I was just chatting with this fellow he was the one who dismissed the working lines not me!


Sounds like it is good to get people like that out of GSD's.


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## LaRen616

Liesje said:


> Well, plenty of GSD people won't touch a Malinois with a ten foot pole!


I know I wouldn't :lurking:


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> ......
> codmaster, I am not dismissing showlines I'm just trying to be honest with myself. Currently the dog I'm working and trialing with is a showline dog and there's not much I'd change about him even if I had the chance. I've also had a working line dog with a nice pedigree that was a total SchH washout. Very obedient dog, prey drive, GREAT tracker but the dog could not take one fingertip of pressure in any form from any person.
> Conformation is very subjective. ..........I got my current working line with conformation in mind and have already shown him (he's almost 4 months). Currently, there are just as many working lines producing the type of conformation I like to bring into the ring as there are showlines.


What type of conformation are you going to show in? If AKC, I would be surprised if many WL pups will do very well - at least not the ones that I have seen. Are you planning to show in all breed shows or in GSD specialities? That can make a very big difference also. have to be able to know the judges and their preferences.


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## LaRen616

Please dont think me rude, but I just dont find Mals to be nearly as attractive as a GSD. 

I mean there are some good looking Mals out there, I am not saying they are ugly at all, I just think that GSD's are more attractive.

I also think that Dutchies are stunning but again I prefer the GSD.

No offense to anyone that has a Mal or a Dutchie


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## Cassidy's Mom

Liesje said:


> Those people are right, we DO need to be careful, and part of that is not assuming that showline automatically = *more laid back, middle of the road, less energy and less drive.*


That certainly does NOT describe Keefer! :wild: But his former half sister Dena? Sure. She was a crazy nut for tennis balls, but overall her drives were very moderate, and she was much calmer.


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## Samba

I would work with Malinois, but I don't think it could replace a German Shepherd. My vision is getting worse every day, so soon I will be able to live with one of the Mali's!


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## Liesje

I show puppies in AKC matches (and have won) and show adolescents and adults in UKC, WDA, and USA shows. I basically show depending on what is most readily available. The main reason I've only done AKC conformation as puppy matches is because when I am at the large clusters that are in driving distance, I'm entered in sport/performance events so I can't show at the same time. It's just me and my pets, I don't have handlers and an entourage. The puppy matches around here are conformation only. The UKC headquarters is only about an hour from me and there are a dozen or more WDA and/or USA shows within a reasonable distance. I guess you could consider those "specialties" since they are only GSDs. I do not show in UKC specialties. I mainly show to prove that my dogs have correct conformation, I don't show competitively. The UKC ring is my favorite venue because in my area it is a total mix of working line, German show line, and American show line, almost an even 1/3 split. Also there is no pro handling or double handling. To me, the even mix of types, the banning of pro handling, and the absence of double handling make it the most fair, the most fun, and the most valuable. When I buy a dog I buy the conformation that *I* like and I put it in any ring that I can afford. I do not limit myself to a German show line because of WDA, or an American line b/c of UKC....


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## 24kgsd

robinhuerta said:


> Verivus,
> Those basic breed traits should NEVER be the "exception" in any bloodline, they should be the "norm".


EXACTLY Robin, well said! 

And Lorie your boy Gavin pulled 592 pounds first try taking all of 2 seconds, and he was ready to do more. I had to "pull" him away from pulling more!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Seriously, always knew what to do? You've never made a mistake or had to learn anything?




holland said:


> GAGSD said it best earlier, people get an exuberant puppy and then other tendancies come out and the owners don't know what to do.
> 
> 
> Really cause I always knew what to do - I laugh a lot more these days


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## Gwenhwyfair

He was polite but pretty darn direct about it I must say! I also met a woman who started police K-9s and she only worked with the mals too. I met with a client today (to socialize my puppy with her GSD puppy  fun stuff) anyhoo she bumped into a police officer with his K-9 a week or so ago and it was a malinios too. 

People just have their preferences and decide that this breed/line is the ONLY way to go and they stick with it. Some people like to mix it up more. 

Sometimes though, IMHO, some folks take it way too personally when a less then positive comment is made about their preferred type/breed/line of dog.....I dunno about that sometimes. In another forum there was a to-do going on in a thread about a controversial breed and they started calling each other racists...over a dog breed?!

I'd love to go and watch one the shows Liesje speaks of, with the different types of GSDs showing together!

(btw There are a lot of people who shouldn't have dogs period. You know the ones, they barely care enough to feed or give the dog water, leave it tied to tree or in a outdoor run alone 24/7 .......)



codmaster said:


> Sounds like it is good to get people like that out of GSD's.


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## Liesje

I'm in the category that likes to "mix it up" but not necessarily together. I don't look for show/working crosses but I like to own both types. I know that generally speaking there are certain lines better for tracking, certain lines better for defense/personal protection, certain lines better for herding, etc. The trick is for people to really understand WHAT it is THEY want, not what the "Schutzhund trainer" tells you or the supposed police K9 trainer or the person that is jumping ship to Malinois or this or that. One example I've seen is getting a dog that is neurotic with prey drive b/c they wanted a dog that looked flashy in obedience and is super easy to train with a toy and appeared to be great at protection b/c it would chase, bite, and tug a rag at a young age, but then wondering why the dog is a bit handler soft or doesn't have much fight in protection. I'm not saying you can't have good bits of everything but the problem is looking at one or a few traits and making assumptions about how the dog works in other phases/scenarios, what carries over, what doesn't. Take my showline dog, some of his "weaknesses" are things that I like about him and his style for work, and what I consider his "strengths" are traits that other people can't stand. But I know what I like in my dogs and THAT is what I get. No dog is perfect hence I have multiple dogs based on the traits that I like.


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## lhczth

Smithie86 said:


> Our "crazy, out of control" working line (4xwusv,3xfci) is hanging in the house.


And I have three right now vegging on the floor and on the couch.


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## Smithie86

And Norbo (Lisa - Nick's brother, aka Ozzy - I LOVE that name) will be tearing through the house any minute, as Gabor just got back from clients and working dogs. He is at that goofy, finishing teething (BIG Molars) phase that will jump on the couch and cuddle......


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## holland

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Seriously, always knew what to do? You've never made a mistake or had to learn anything?


 
Did you see anywhere in my post where I said I or my dogs have been to the WUSV three times-nope-nor did I say anywhere that I never ever made a mistake Let me simplify it for you my dog likes to play and I enjoy her-simple as that


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## holland

-oops sorry it was four times at the WUSV


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## Smithie86

holland said:


> -oops sorry it was four times at the wusv


Holland....


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## Verivus

Wow, I never thought I would get so many thoughtful responses. Thanks everyone, it's a lot of food for thought.  It's very interested reading about peoples personal experiences with the different lines and I agree that it really depends on the individual dog!


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## LARHAGE

24kgsd said:


> EXACTLY Robin, well said!
> 
> And Lorie your boy Gavin pulled 592 pounds first try taking all of 2 seconds, and he was ready to do more. I had to "pull" him away from pulling more!




Wow! Now I know who's going to pull the hay cart through the snow next year. . I'd like to add Gavin is a showline with great drive, a zest for doing anything asked of him, is successful in the show ring, and loves being on the Schutzhund field, and is laid back enough to live in my home with 3 small dogs, 2 cats and horses, he can turn it on and off in a second, and Julie, I was
so impressed how the night you picked him up how calmy he walked into a busy hotel lobby and never flinched going into an elevator up several floors, he is just rock solid in temperament and confidence.


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## Jessiewessie99

Not only has this thread helped Vervius, but it has helped me as well. It does depend alot on your lifestyle, and the individual dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Holland, look at your post which I quoted. You referred to a comment I made earlier and therefore the reference was drawn to my post and yours...only. You didn't indicate any further inferences to WUSV in our exchange.

RELAX it's Christmas/Holidays and I hope you have a nice one. 




holland said:


> Did you see anywhere in my post where I said I or my dogs have been to the WUSV three times-nope-nor did I say anywhere that I never ever made a mistake Let me simplify it for you my dog likes to play and I enjoy her-simple as that


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## Jason L

Samba said:


> I would work with Malinois, but I don't think it could replace a German Shepherd. My vision is getting worse every day, so soon I will be able to live with one of the Mali's!


Same here. My next working dog will most likely be a scrawny, sharped face little malinois ... and, yes, I do think they are ugly!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Understood re:show working crosses. 

Thank you for your interesting and informative posts Liesje. Agree with your philosophy and in that dogs are like horses, the more different kinds/types you are exposed to the better. You will understand the differences and the better you become at reading them.

I think what happens sometimes on topics such as these is you have people flying at 3000 feet and those who are just taking off in the GSD world. 

The opinions and experiences of others often can be overwhelming and confusing. Plus I've been on the other side of the fence with the horses (pun intended  ) I've helped quite few newbies who were getting into horses. There are similiarities, you don't want match up a hot 17.2 hand Grand Prix Trakehner or young Thoroughbred colt with a someone who's just starting to learn how to ride. It's harder with dogs though, as there are more levels and more drives to worry about then with horses.

My advice to people who were starting out in horses was A) don't listen to _everyone_ in the barn B) find a good trainer and stick with them. I found a lot people started coming to me for advice and training simply because I didn't try to force my opinions down their throat and it was such a relief for them. Training and learning have to be adaptive experiences. I've watched it many a time a gaggle of people who say don't do this, do that, NO don't do that as the poor new horse owner's eyes glazed over. I see that happening even more so with dogs because so many more people have dogs.

There's a lot of jargon that dog trainers use like 'edgey', 'handler soft', 'sharp' that someone just getting into all this may not really understand. Somethings are only learned through actual experience, dealing with many different dogs, seeing and 'feeling' the differences while training, observing and handling. 

I think the most important thing is appreciate those people who are making an effort to do the right thing and be patient with them. <_this is *not *directed at you liesje....._

Learning about GSDs at a more indepth level is new adventure for me. I hope it is as enjoyable as my 30 year journey with horses and horse people were.

Yesterday my little Ilda (import, west german show lines) met my neighbor's dog Diesel (import, working lines Czech) and they just fell in love... he is a very handsome boy you know :wub: It was so neat to watch them play and my neighbor and I were both just puffed up with pride lovin' both of those beautiful dogs. They didn't care, just full of life and joy, I think we humans could learn a thing or two from our dogs. 

With that I wish you and the gang here a peaceful and joyful Christmas and Holiday season. 



Liesje said:


> I'm in the category that likes to "mix it up" but not necessarily together. I don't look for show/working crosses but I like to own both types. I know that generally speaking there are certain lines better for tracking, certain lines better for defense/personal protection, certain lines better for herding, etc. The trick is for people to really understand WHAT it is THEY want, not what the "Schutzhund trainer" tells you or the supposed police K9 trainer or the person that is jumping ship to Malinois or this or that. One example I've seen is getting a dog that is neurotic with prey drive b/c they wanted a dog that looked flashy in obedience and is super easy to train with a toy and appeared to be great at protection b/c it would chase, bite, and tug a rag at a young age, but then wondering why the dog is a bit handler soft or doesn't have much fight in protection. I'm not saying you can't have good bits of everything but the problem is looking at one or a few traits and making assumptions about how the dog works in other phases/scenarios, what carries over, what doesn't. Take my showline dog, some of his "weaknesses" are things that I like about him and his style for work, and what I consider his "strengths" are traits that other people can't stand. But I know what I like in my dogs and THAT is what I get. No dog is perfect hence I have multiple dogs based on the traits that I like.


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## W.Oliver

Jason L said:


> My next working dog will most likely be a scrawny, sharped face little malinois ... and, yes, I do think they are ugly!


Get one of those KNPV dogs where they mix Mal x Dutch, some of them are anything but scrawny & sharp faced....


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## mnbue

We got our guy with no plans for him beyond wanting a family pet. He's an interesting mix of Canadian show lines (I'm no expert, but the Canadian lines are apparently similar to the American, but bred for less angulation), German show lines, German working lines and a bit of American show lines. As best I can do the math, he's mostly show line with about 1/3 working line just for "spice". 

More by accident than any other reason, we've ended up in a Schutzhund class, and he's doing well - although he's certainly less "high drive" than many of the dogs there, he's taken well to the training where many of the owners are dealing with training problems brought on by difficult-to-control drive, barking, becoming too fixated to "think", etc. That being said, it's early days for us and we're still "drive building"...so we could be in for that too, if we're not careful.

All that being said, he's a great dog for lazy days around the house, too. We certainly need to keep him exercised (and can tell the difference when we're not doing a good job there), but he can lounge next to the cats all evening and not get antsy.

I definitely do see the point someone made about the mixing of show/working lines, and how this can lead to more uncertainty about what your puppy's going to grow up into. But I would think that's mostly true of first or possibly second-generation "mixes". My guy is actually from a breeder whose stock is mixed for a couple generations back, and I wonder....his dogs all seem to have a more relaxed temperament, but most of them are titled in something beyond just conformation (although that as well). Maybe that's a fluke, but I'd like to think he's on to something. I'm happy with our "middle of the road" quasi-working dog, and if I could, I'd go for exactly the same again.


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