# Female GSD fighting Advice please



## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

Hi,
I am new here but have come to this page many times and found helpful information regarding my GSD's. I have a male and a female, the male is fixed the female is not (not yet). I recently agreed to take in another female because her owner couldn't keep her and she had a rough start in life so I just didn't want her to go to anyone else and just couldn't say no even though I knew it would be a challenge to have 2 females. My first female, Rachael is 4 years old. We have had her since she was a puppy. She is the best family dog anyone could ask for. Shes great with my small children and cohabitates well with our indoor cats. The same goes for my male (Sig) except that he is 2 1/2, neutered. They get along great with each other. I agreed to take Molly (as stated above) about 1 1/2 weeks ago. I was very careful to rotate all of the dogs between family time, outdoor time and crate time while they all got used to each other smells. A week into Molly being here I let her a Sig meet face to face and it went very well. I wasn't really expecting any problems since he is a male. Yesterday I decide to let Rachael and Molly meet and it went way worst than expected. Rachael attacked Molly (luckily Molly is ok and not injured) but obviously I can't have that kind of thing happening. Molly is about 2 and she is not spayed yet. I plan to have both of the girls spayed. Do you guys know from experience if this may help or stop the fighting? Did I introduce them too soon?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You will hear that female/female aggression is the worst. And often there is nothing that will change it. You may be facing the situation where you either manage it by keeping them separate or you rehome. I doubt spaying will do anything to change this. You could have an experienced GOOD trainer that knows protection breeds evaluate the situation to see if there is anything you can do. But again, with female/female aggression it is not uncommon for there to be nothing you can do. I have heard it said that males fight to settle a score, females fight to kill. Be careful. Try your best and rehome if you need to.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

Thank you Karin. I was afraid that would be the general answer I got. I am really hoping for a miracle but I will rehome Molly if I need too. She is such a sweet dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, spaying will not help aggression. Sorry to all the believers out there that think so but it's not true and there is at least one study to back that. It creates an imbalance of hormones. 

Second, rehome Molly. Foster her, care for her, find her a good home. 

IME, nothing stops females from fighting once they start. You, and both your females, are going to live a life of crate and rotate and constantly being on guard. Do everyone a favor and find Molly the right home for her. Believe me...you will be much happier doing so.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

Thank you for your reply Jax. I appreciate your insight very much.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rachsigandmolly said:


> Thank you for your reply Jax. I appreciate your insight very much.


I wish I couldn't give you insight on this particular problem!  Our lives consist of crating and not doing certain things to trigger either female. Things such as sitting next to my husband on the couch. I've never heard of anyone that was able to overcome females fighting. Only manage them as we do.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I agree that rehoming sounds like your best option and consider yourself fortunate that the girls showed their colors a week in rather than months or years because in most cases, it's inevitable that girls will fight.... those who find success in female to female pairings usually aren't achieving that success after a fight has already happened in the beginning. with young children in the home I just think it'd be incredibly difficult to manage and ensure the dogs stay safe.

if you can keep your emotions and attachment at bay I would say that there is no need to rush and get her out of the house ASAP - I would still get her on a good foot and find an appropriate home. in the meantime continue the rotation and if there is someone who can be a second handler - the girls should be okay on walks together... starting at a distance and not forcing interactions, etc. this is how I like to do intros right off the bat. i also think it's important to end things on a good note so that both girls realize they can be comfortable and civil between each other and not carry that experience into the next dog they meet.

thanks for trying to help this girl and know that you still are


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How did you introduce them? On a leash? Face to face? My four year old female will take a dog out if they get in her face and she doesn't know them. I've had some really stupid people think that mine wanted to be friends with theirs. I noticed with mine that she doesn't change her mind if that first intro went south, she will never like the other dog. I can bring dogs into the house without issue, but I won't even attempt a female. I have two females, they are 7 yrs apart in age and they have gotten into it a couple times(always due to another dog in the house). Neither would back down and neither ever had any injuries(I did get bit, but I'd rather it be me then one of the dogs)On the other hand the female GSD has punctured my older male GSDs chest(vet trip required), again due to another dog instigating it. I have to stay on top of it, I know she can do damage, so I am ready to jump in. It doesn't happen often but with multiple dogs you have to be ready for it. Just the other day 5 (yes 5 dogs)out of the seven got into a scuffle, I grabbed the two that I feel can do the most damage and by my tone they knew I wasn't happy and it was over faster then it started. They seriously remind me of a bunch of sisters and brothers--except they have teeth and can do serious damage. If you are not prepared to break up fights, learn when a fight might start or play can escalate, then a third dog is not a good idea. The whole dynamic changes every time you add one. Just like people they can have bad days. So if you are not prepared to break up fights or crate and rotate it probably won't work. The instigator in my house is the only dog crated and it's for his own safety. There has never been a fight that he hasn't directly or indirectly caused.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Just to add, I think you have been given good advice. I know some can pull off multiple females but I would not dare to venture there personally.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are trainers out there that can stop the conflict between them and teach you how to keep the peace, but it would be a lifestyle change for sure. You wouldnt ever want to just leave them alone with each other in a yard or something, but getting them to get along while supervised is easily possible for those that know how.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I didn't see what happened so this is speculation on my part --
In my experience, introducing a pup to another female has always gone well. What I see happening in your case is not just adding another female but adding another female to a household with an existing pair of dogs (male & female). When I brought an older guy home to my 4 & 7 year old bitches, there was no fighting but the relationship between the two of them changed as they vied for attention from the guy. I've also had the experience of two females from different households getting along fine until a male dog was present.

Depending upon whether the "attack" was actually nasty or just looked nasty to the human witnesses, it could have merely been the older bitch putting the young one firmly in her place - as in "I am the queen of this here castle. These are my people, this is my guy dog and YOU pip squeek are way way down the ladder. Stay there and we'll be fine." My puppy, the chow freak, had to learn that she was not to touch the older bitche's bowl of food regardless of how long it had been sitting there. They are two and six now and best buddies. The younger one does not touch the other one's food. Regardless.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

"Dogs fight to breed, bitches fight to breathe"... I guess i'm a glutton for punishment, but I'm on my second set of girls who don't get along. I thought the last situation was triggered by my senior girl (who sadly passed away last year,) but now I'm discovering it's my 4 yr old who's the real instigator. I got another female pup earlier in the year who's now 12 mos and she and my 4 yr old got into a serious disagreement a couple months ago and have been separated since then. Fortunately there were few injuries during the fight which seemed to last forever in the middle of the living room before I managed to safely separate them which isn't an easy task by yourself. 

The easiest course of action is to rehome the new girl.. unless you want to spend your days crating and gating which was already mentioned... I'm actually resigned to doing that as neither of my girls are leaving. I did a lot of research on this type of aggression to find help , but nothing sounded too promising. Best helpful tips I found were to keep all interaction with them 'upbeat' and happy... I do simple obedience commands with them and reward them together. Walks together are great 'peace keepers' .... and above all else keeping them well exercised to keep them relaxed and not on edge around each other is very helpful in keeping their aggressiveness better defused. It's not easy and there's no quick fix. And they can never be trusted to stay together unsupervised. Having them mantain a healthy respect for your leadership and your disapproval of any unpleasant reactions towards one another is also helpful in keeping the peace ... when you tell them to chill out, they need to listen.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Female on female aggression is fairly common in GSDs......I have been at both ends of the spectrum.....

Currently have a 12 year old and a year old in the house....they did fine loose for several months, but were separated for a few weeks, and then I chose to be careful and not let them loose together.

That same 1 year old, in standing heat, spent a happy first birthday with her dam, and her littermate....they even shared a birthday cake! 

Both extremes in 4 generations of females....

Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think you have been given a lot of good advice. I would take it all under careful consideration.

I am not so sure this is a case of female to female "I want to kill you aggression" or if this is just you introduced them way too soon. IMO, it could make a difference and I suspect the latter.

I have had multiple intact females in the past, I never had a problem. I have two now, so far no problems. Does that mean it will always be that way? No. I do take precautions, although that does not guarantee anything.

@llombardo People who have well adjusted, dog friendly dogs that both the owner and the dogs enjoy meeting like-minded people and dogs, hardly qualify to be called stupid. Dogs are well know for bringing a social aspect to the lives of many especially those interested in dogs.

@Bailiff Care to make any specific suggestions?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think you have been given a lot of good advice. I would take it all under careful consideration.
> 
> I am not so sure this is a case of female to female "I want to kill you aggression" or if this is just you introduced them way too soon. IMO, it could make a difference and I suspect the latter.
> 
> ...


I don't care who you are, you do not under any circumstances bring your dog into a face of a dog that you don't know. That is plain stupid. My female is well adjusted and a great dog and I would NEVER walk right up to another person with a dog, much less another female GSD and put either them in a spot that could be dangerous. Its one thing if it's mutual but uninvited is stupid. I'm not putting my dog in a position to get hurt or hurt another dog and people need to realize these aren't poodles or golden retrievers. Approach with caution, but do not put your dog in my dogs face, especially when I tell you not to approach and put myself between the dogs.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

I appreciate all of your advice so much. I introduced them face to face in my backyard after them being in the same house rotating and crating for 1 1/2 weeks. Their crates started off in separate rooms and then I crated them for several days in the same room so they could be near each other and hear and smell each other (still rotating plat time outside and family time). Rachael didn't even hesitate before she attacked Molly and from a human perspective it was pretty nasty. I am going to go ahead and take Rachael in this week to get spayed and then next week I will do Molly. I think I will wait a couple of weeks while the hormones hopefully calm down a little and then I will try again. If it doesn't work and Rachael is still aggressive toward Molly I will try to find Molly a good home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

rachsigandmolly said:


> I appreciate all of your advice so much. I introduced them face to face in my backyard after them being in the same house rotating and crating for 1 1/2 weeks. Their crates started off in separate rooms and then I crated them for several days in the same room so they could be near each other and hear and smell each other (still rotating plat time outside and family time). Rachael didn't even hesitate before she attacked Molly and from a human perspective it was pretty nasty. I am going to go ahead and take Rachael in this week to get spayed and then next week I will do Molly. I think I will wait a couple of weeks while the hormones hopefully calm down a little and then I will try again. If it doesn't work and Rachael is still aggressive toward Molly I will try to find Molly a good home.


Have you tried walking them together but apart? Meaning two people, each have a dog at a distance next to each other that they can't get to each other?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I don't care who you are, you do not under any circumstances bring your dog into a face of a dog that you don't know. That is plain stupid. My female is well adjusted and a great dog and I would NEVER walk right up to another person with a dog, much less another female GSD and put either them in a spot that could be dangerous. Its one thing if it's mutual but uninvited is stupid. I'm not putting my dog in a position to get hurt or hurt another dog and people need to realize these aren't poodles or golden retrievers. Approach with caution, but do not put your dog in my dogs face, especially when I tell you not to approach and put myself between the dogs.


If your dog has such dog issues, maybe she should not have access to other dogs. A dog coming into contact face to face with another dog is beyond your control. You can't control if somebody walks around a corner with a dog or if somebody approaches on a narrow walkway with another dog. You just can't control this. It is stupid to think that you can and it is not very wise to put a dog with problems in that situation.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Have you tried walking them together but apart? Meaning two people, each have a dog at a distance next to each other that they can't get to each other?


No I haven't. I am not really in a position to do that as my husband works out of town most of the time and I always have little kids in tow.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't have any specific advice because it can't be taught by text it is something that would have to be experienced. It involves having to read dogs body language and recognizing precursors and responding appropriately and timely so that the dogs get it.

It is easily possible though. It isn't one of those solutions you find on the internet though or by watching youtube videos.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It isn't easily possible. Bitches can be fine together, until they aren't. And yes, you can reintroduce them and have them fine together again, until they aren't. 

Bitches are sneaky smart. They will wait for an opportunity. When they strike they strike fast and getting them apart can be a heart racing experience. 

To suggest it is easy to get it to stop, once it has started, well, I dunno. The only way to ensure that it has indeed stopped is to wait until the bitch died of natural causes. 

One of my vets did Jack Russel Terriers. And every so often his bitches would fight. He'd have to mop them up. But he would get them back together again. Just because they do not fight every time they see each other does not mean they are ok with each other. 

I'd rehome the new one. Your home was in balance. Bringing the new one home shifted the balance that you had. It will make life stressful. Having dogs should decrease stress. It isn't comfortable for the dogs to be in a situation where fights are likely to happen, and everyone is undergoing crate/rotate and NILIF. 

It didn't work out, it doesn't always.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you have little kids in tow, don't even try it. They can get caught up in the middle of a dogfight in a heartbeat --its not about the dogs being aggressive to them kids are just at the right height to get into real trouble -- You have two dogs who are working out together and that is plenty with kids in the house.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jocoyn said:


> If you have little kids in tow, don't even try it. They can get caught up in the middle of a dogfight in a heartbeat --its not about the dogs being aggressive to them kids are just at the right height to get into real trouble -- You have two dogs who are working out together and that is plenty with kids in the house.


Best comment on here.

Nothing is more important than the safety of your children.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

jocoyn said:


> If you have little kids in tow, don't even try it. They can get caught up in the middle of a dogfight in a heartbeat --its not about the dogs being aggressive to them kids are just at the right height to get into real trouble -- You have two dogs who are working out together and that is plenty with kids in the house.


Yes that is defiantly my main goal, the children. I would never do the meeting and get togethers with the children near by.


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

rachsigandmolly said:


> I am going to go ahead and take Rachael in this week to get spayed and then next week I will do Molly. I think I will wait a couple of weeks while the hormones hopefully calm down a little and then I will try again. If it doesn't work and Rachael is still aggressive toward Molly I will try to find Molly a good home.


Maybe do some research on spay and aggression first? I have read that some studies show that spaying a female will make her more aggressive, not less. Especially if aggression is seen before the spay.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD2 said:


> Maybe do some research on spay and aggression first? I have read that some studies show that spaying a female will make her more aggressive, not less. Especially if aggression is seen before the spay.


 This!!!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

rachsigandmolly said:


> Yes that is defiantly my main goal, the children. I would never do the meeting and get togethers with the children near by.


I have multiple females and no children. I was showing puppies to some people in my home today. They had a two year old with them, and a kid about 5. I had the baby gate behind my living room couch open as I was snagging a puppy for them, and the five year old was opening the sliding gate to my study where Babsy was ready to come in. 

It is not always your kid that opens a gate or door and causes trouble. 

These folks brought one of my older pups back to visit, and the bitch and remaining pups were outside my front door barking their fool heads off. I think the dam and pups would have been fine welcoming back the young female, but with two small children and three extra adults around, no way am I going to open that gate and expose the kids to a scene that is even questionable. 

I brought a 3 year old bitch into my home and fostered her for two years. I had a 2 year old bitch at the time. They were great together for about 2-3 months, and then WWIII took place and ALL of us ended up in the ER. 

From that point on, when Arwen was inside, Jazzy was outside. Jazzy went through my window 3 separate times -- twice trying to get in and once trying to get out. So I could not just leave her in the back yard. I ended up building a pair of escape proof kennels but before I did, I had to chain my brother's dog for her own safety while I was at work. 

Even after the kennels were built, the bitches were constantly trying to eat each other. I had a mutt in with Jazzy, and I had a young GSD in with Arwen, and each morning when I let the girls out (individually) to put them in their kennels for the day, they would run back and fourth and back fourth barking like crazy at each other. Fence fighting. One day, Arwen tripped over the 7 week old GSD, and picked him up and shook him, like she would usually shake a squeaky toy as part of her fence fighting routine. 

That was enough for me. I put up a tarp along the length of the kennels between the bitches and put the larger mutt in with Arwen and the younger pup in with Jazzy. That solved the issue so long as I was vigilent. You cannot make a mistake with a latch when you have bitches intent on killing each other. If someone gets in between, they will be bitten. The bitches are fighting for their lives. If some small human tries to separate them, I shudder to think what could happen. Maybe this is why some kids get killed by multiple dogs. Maybe it is misdirected aggression. 

A bitch fight is something no little kid needs to see. It is horrible. Blood. And you love these dogs. It is horrible trying to get them to stop killing each other. That doesn't look pretty. You might wedge a chair between them, hit or kick at one of them, get a gate between them, and then pull and push trying to get them unconnected. You are on one side of the gate, with a bitch on either side. What if your kid is out there. He is witnessing this horrible stuff, and can also be in danger. 

You know you have a problem. You've had the bitch for a week and a half. You should take her back now and just tell your friend, whatever, that she doesn't get along with your bitch. I can choose to be in a situation where my mistakes might mean a fight between bitches, because I don't have any kids living here. Kids aren't making that choice. Kids shouldn't have to live with the consequences of an action that should have been avoided entirely.

GSD bitches weigh 65-75 pounds normal size. They pull like freight trains. If you have their collars, and they are trying to eat eachother, you have to be extremely strong to keep 130 to 150# of GSD muscle and fangs from getting to each other. Been there, done that, managed it, still have the scar that took over a year to heal.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *It isn't easily possible. Bitches can be fine together, until they aren't. And yes, you can reintroduce them and have them fine together again, until they aren't. *
> 
> Bitches are sneaky smart. *They will wait for an opportunity. When they strike they strike fast *and getting them apart can be a heart racing experience.
> 
> *To suggest it is easy to get it to stop, once it has started, well, I dunno.* The only way to ensure that it has indeed stopped is to wait until the bitch died of natural causes.


I have to agree with this 100%. Especially the bolded parts. There is no easy fix and a tough situation to live with.. Unless you want to be on guard 24/7 and even then there can still be problems.. Because some dogs will throw off the most subtle signs that we don't pick up on, that can trigger the other to react and then it's game on!


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

Oh goodness. I did not know that. I will check that out for sure.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

Thank you for telling me what happened with your dogs. I am taking the situation very seriously. I do not think her old owner will be there person I give her back to but I will find her a home without other females.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Rehome her, don't even try to keep her. You have small children and you cannot afford anything close to a female-female fight. The safety of these kids should come first, then you sanity and the dogs'. You had harmony before, so I would choose that.
The posters that gave you tips on how to possibly make this work, do not take the safety of the kids in consideration IMHO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is what happens when you get in the middle of one dog going after another. Full canine in my leg.

_*** Oversized pic removed by ADMIN ***_


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If you are going to re-home Molly - get her healthy and get her spayed. She'll be more adoptable once spayed, and you don't want her to end up in a home where they are going to use her for breeding, or where they might let her get accidentally pregnant.


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## rachsigandmolly (Nov 15, 2015)

It looks like we have found her a good home. Thank you all for your help and advice. Luckily my sister had a good friend that wanted a GSD to give her husband for Christmas. They have had GSD's before so they are experienced with the breed. They do not have small children or female dogs so hopefully she will be happy there. I will update on her progress of how she is doing.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Good for you and good that you gave her a chance to a good life.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Wonderful!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Awesome.

While we would all like to ensure that dogs are not bred indiscriminately, not everyone is in a position to get a bitch spayed before rehoming them. This dog shouldn't be in this home for one minute longer than absolutely possible. There are children to consider and they are far more important than a possible oops pregnancy down the line. 

Excellent in finding a home for the girl. Encourage the new owner to spay, but don't lose the home if you believe it is a good one. If it is at all possible, offer to pay for the spay -- lots of people will take you up on that, but than the girl goes home with the new owner.


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## mickeyroyalty (Aug 19, 2012)

I had 2 GSD females who fought, it escalated until injuries occurred. I rehomed the aggressor.


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