# Prong and heavy leashes



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Almost any leash I try weighs the prong down a little and because of that there's constant pressure on the prong. 

I love leerburg leather prong dominant collar leashes but they're the heaviest

Any idea on what to use on a prong so that it adds no weight at all? I'm about to cut a piece off a tracking line (really light, 3/8 of an inch) and saw it around the prong and then add a clip to it. 
I don't know what else to do

I put the prong on my neck and any clip I add weighs it down.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I have the heavy police leash I use with the prong and it never seems to bother my dogs with just it's weight. They only notice if I have to make a correction. 

Do you have the collar properly fitted? Cause if it's always a bit tight on the dog (you don't slip it over your dogs head to put it on, do you?) all the time, the weight of the leash doesn't seem to affect it.

If, on the other hand, the collar is really loose, then the leash would make a difference.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Almost any leash I try weighs the prong down a little and because of that there's constant pressure on the prong.
> 
> I love leerburg leather prong dominant collar leashes but they're the heaviest
> 
> ...


You probably feel it more than your dog would since you don't have a furry neck (at least I hope not ) 

I wouldn't worry about it, but if you must, try a 1/2 inch leather leash. That one doesn't seem to weigh anything.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I do have it fitted right and he doesn't complain lol. I just noticed how much it sags once I clip the leash. It's the hardware I think, and the leash itself too. 
Lol I just walked to two shoe repair places and they're closed. About to do it myself. Will post a pic later
I just don't see the need to weigh him down like this

Lol no furry neck. but i wanted to see the diff between just prong and prong and leash and it's noticeable. 
I use 2.25 herm sprenger black. It's so lightweight and I love it. Why add weight to it. And desensitize him a little in the process


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Maggie, no, it's by his ears. I've been to trainers and I have it on right.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

it's probably the hardware,,I have a really light biotane 1/2" leash and the leash itself is light as a feather, the hardware not so much


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> it's probably the hardware,,I have a really light biotane 1/2" leash and the leash itself is light as a feather, the hardware not so much


Yep, my tracking line is 3/8 biotane and I love it 
I have 2 so I cut the second in pieces and making my own prong dominant collar connection lol

Its the hardware for sure. But heavy leather isn't helping.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There shouldn't really be sagging if the prong is the right size and fitted right. My favorite leash is a 6', 1" wide heavy duty biothane leash and it has a pretty serious brass snap on it but it doesn't tighten the collar.

Otherwise you can just clip to both the "live" and the "dead" ring at the same time.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

It's not sagging and that's not my problem. I can still correct, it works fine. I just don't see the need for constant pressure even if it's slight

Also, no matter how tight the prong there will always be some slack that csn be weighted down. There must be some slack so you can correct. I don't know how to explain it will take pics later


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> I just noticed how much it sags once I clip the leash.


Can you take a picture then? I don't quite understand the problem.

The way I fit prongs there is no slack, I can still correct.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Mein Gott, are you using a rifle sling for a dog lead?? It shouldn't be that heavy even if it's leather with brass hardware.

Lisl wears a prong and a 3/4" agitation lead with brass hardware and I can't even tell it's clipped to the collar. And neither can she.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Can you take a picture then? I don't quite understand the problem.
> 
> The way I fit prongs there is no slack, I can still correct.


There MUST be slack. If there's no slack at all then the act of wearing the collar is the correction. No slack is when you pop. if you wear the collar that tight then you can't correct


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> Mein Gott, are you using a rifle sling for a dog lead?? It shouldn't be that heavy even if it's leather with brass hardware.
> 
> Lisl wears a prong and a 3/4" agitation lead with brass hardware and I can't even tell it's clipped to the collar. And neither can she.


It's heavy enough to weigh it down some. Weigh leerburg's prong dominant collar leashes. The hardware alone weighs probably a half a pound. 

I'm making my own lol. Will see how it goes. 

My dog doesn't complain either. It's just something I noticed and don't like


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

No... There should be no slack. Snug and tight all the way around so that pressure put on the collar by you tightens evenly around. Based on the slack and cowlick, I think you can situate that collar up a little higher and take a link out. 

That said, I don't like heavy leads by ANY means. I use 3/8" or 1/2" standard weight 5' Biothane leads with 1/2" light hardware. I don't think my dogs can feel them at all.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No... There should be no slack. Snug and tight all the way around so that pressure put on the collar by you tightens evenly around. Based on the slack and cowlick, I think you can situate that collar up a little higher and take a link out.
> 
> That said, I don't like heavy leads by ANY means. I use 3/8" or 1/2" standard weight 5' Biothane leads with 1/2" light hardware. I don't think my dogs can feel them at all.


Omg are you guys for real? There must be some slack so that you can pop it. If there were no slack you couldn't pop 

Take rope and tie it around a tree really tight. Then try popping it. 

For the prong to contract and mimic the bite there must be some slack. Half an inch, inch but there must be some. 

Maybe I'm using the wrong word. Not slack. Space?


If I take a link out then it'd too tight. Then it's almost a constant correction. Right now it's looser than I like it but one more link makes it too tight


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> There MUST be slack. If there's no slack at all then the act of wearing the collar is the correction. No slack is when you pop. if you wear the collar that tight then you can't correct


LOL then why do some friends hand me their lines to help them handle their dogs during protection?

There doesn't have to be slack.

Nikon and Indy wear theirs with no slack. Coke and Legend's aren't fit as tight so there is actually a little slack but I've never had issues with leashes "correcting" my dogs inadvertently.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> LOL then why do some friends hand me their lines to help them handle their dogs during protection?
> 
> There doesn't have to be slack.
> 
> Nikon and Indy wear theirs with no slack. Coke and Legend's aren't fit as tight so there is actually a little slack but I've never had issues with leashes "correcting" my dogs inadvertently.


So what do you call it when the pop the prong. 
If there was no slack before you started, then you pop it. The moment you pop it, what do you call the state of the prong? I'd say it had slack before you popped and by popping you take the slack out. 

I must be using wrong words

I don't have any issues either. I don't like things weighing down his prong that's all.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I call it 'tighter'

It sits high on Lisl's neck under her ears. It's not tight, but there's no slack. If she needs a correction, she does it herself.

That doesn't happen too often.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Lala, I don't care where the prong is on my dogs neck. To me, that high and tight is more for restraint when you don't have confidence with what Boomer may do, or to give a harsher correction where its more tender with less effort from you, in which case I think the heavier leather leash aids that. Bottom line, its all about what you do with it and how Boomer reacts. 

As far as the IPO handling, there's a time for a tight line and plenty of times for a loose line. There's times to spin the collar around on his neck and there's times where that tight line is a cue you don't want, or that restraint means your dogs gone once you don't have that leash.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> I call it 'tighter'
> 
> It sits high on Lisl's neck under her ears. It's not tight, but there's no slack. If she needs a correction, she does it herself.
> 
> That doesn't happen too often.


Ok so slack is probably the wrong word. That's what I mean, no matter how tight it is with enough pull you can make the prong sag like in my pic. Try it, put some weight with your hand and you will see it. 


would take a link out and take more pics but it's almost choking him, don't want to torture my dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lala, I don't care where the prong is on my dogs neck. To me, that high and tight is more for restraint when you don't have confidence with what Boomer may do, or to give a harsher correction where its more tender with less effort from you, in which case I think the heavier leather leash aids that. Bottom line, its all about what you do with it and how Boomer reacts.
> 
> As far as the IPO handling, there's a time for a tight line and plenty of times for a loose line. There's times to spin the collar around on his neck and there's times where that tight line is a cue you don't want, or that restraint means your dogs gone once you don't have that leash.


I actually do. When it's low it's useless to me, he doesn't feel it. 

But i don't have any problems. I just noticed how heavy this leash and hardware is and since he wears the prong a lot I was trying to make it easier on him

And I did lol

I'm not done yet. Will post the finished one in a while


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well of course I can PULL on it and make it "sag", but it's not sagging from having a thick line/heavy leash with sturdy hardware attached. I'm not really sure where this is going, lol. Earlier you said it sagged, then you said it doesn't sag. If it's not bothering the dog I would not worry about what fraction of an inch of slack is left in the martingale loop part of the collar. If you don't like the slack, take a link out.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Sounds like you are using the same leash I am - Leerburg | Leather Prong Collar Leashâ„¢ . You are right, the leash - leather and hardware- is heavy. The others are right, there shouldn't be any slack in the prong collar. Even with the weight of the leash, there won't be enough of a weight to it to desensitize, unless some tension is inadvertently staying on the leash. If you are using the 2-handled version of this leash, that may be possible due to the bad placement (my opinion) of the 2nd handle.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Well of course I can PULL on it and make it "sag", but it's not sagging from having a thick line/heavy leash with sturdy hardware attached. I'm not really sure where this is going, lol. Earlier you said it sagged, then you said it doesn't sag. If it's not bothering the dog I would not worry about what fraction of an inch of slack is left in the martingale loop part of the collar. If you don't like the slack, take a link out.


you're right, with one more link taken out it doesn't sag with the leash. But that's way too tight. 

But that wasn't my point. I already got the reply. People don't care about heavy leashes. I do for some reason.
I feel bad that he has this weight weighing on the prong. It must bother him.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Twyla said:


> Sounds like you are using the same leash I am - Leerburg | Leather Prong Collar Leash™ . You are right, the leash - leather and hardware- is heavy. The others are right, there shouldn't be any slack in the prong collar. Even with the weight of the leash, there won't be enough of a weight to it to desensitize, unless some tension is inadvertently staying on the leash. If you are using the 2-handled version of this leash, that may be possible due to the bad placement (my opinion) of the 2nd handle.


Yes it's massive. But i really like it. So I'm trying to make it easier on my doggie. 

It's not even about the prong. I used the prong as an example to show how much it weighs him down and attached to the prong it must be uncomfortable. 

He doesnt complain lol, how would he. But i want to make his life easier

No, I'm using the one handle version and there's never any tension. It's hanging down loose and I can see how much it's pulling it down. combined with the 2.25 prong it must not feel good to him


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

If you are noticing that much sag/looseness with the collar, you may need to either change sizes or remove a link - whichever works the best. The leash is heavy but it isn't heavy enough to cause problems if the prong is sized right. I know on Woolf, the collar looks way to tight until you look at the cushioning his coat gives.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

The prong being a little loose just showed me how much pressure he's feeling when I'm not using it. 
If it was really tight then I would've never noticed. Seeing the sag made me realize how it weighs it down.

I like the idea of leerburg leash with 2 ends. He doesnt make it with light hardware and anything but leather. 
So I thought others came across the same problems and found ways to replicate it with light leashes


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

What's the advantages of leerburg prong dominant combo over clipping prong and dominant collar to a regular leash with one clip?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I kinda babbled there Lala, didn't make a very good point. What I was trying to say is only that what really matters is how you use it. The goal shouldnt be to have to depend on how many links or how tight it is.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I kinda babbled there Lala, didn't make a very good point. What I was trying to say is only that what really matters is how you use it. The goal shouldnt be to have to depend on how many links or how tight it is.


Oh please I babble all the time lol. I talk and think later

But I don't think that's true. If it's not tight enough then it slides down and I don't know about others but mine and my friend's dog don't feel it unless it's by the ears.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

They feel it. Just because they ignore it, doesn't mean they don't feel it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It is indeed supposed to be always "tight" so that there is constant pressure. The correction comes when you pull/pop and it tightens into the fur/skin EVENLY. If there is slack, the pressure from the correction goes to the front of the neck and isn't distributed evenly, which is the whole point of the prong... You may as well be using a choker at that point. 

If links can still be taken out without choking the dog, then it's too loose. Skin/fur has give, trees do not.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Taking one more link out means he's walking around choked out. I do think it's a little loose the way it is but one more link makes it way too tight. He makes weird sounds when I put it on. That's past my comfort level


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Taking one more link out means he's walking around choked out. I do think it's a little loose the way it is but one more link makes it way too tight. He makes weird sounds when I put it on. That's past my comfort level


That happens sometimes. If it's loose enough for a leash to pull on, might be worth downgrading size so that you can get a more accurate fit.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> . If there is slack, the pressure from the correction goes to the front of the neck and isn't distributed evenly, which is the whole point of the prong... You may as well be using a choker at that point.
> 
> .


What's the purpose of there being constant pressure?

As far as chokers vs prongs, it depends how much slack. As long as the ends of the prong don't come together when you pop you're ok 
Told by a world class trainer. 

If the prong looks like the first pic during the correction then it's ok

If they look like the second then too loose


However, his explanation wasn't that the second pic means you're using a choker. It means your pulling instead of correcting 

I don't think a prong can choke a dog out if it's too loose. It's a diff design. After the ends come together it becomes a flat collar with prongs. It doesn't become a choker because it doesn't keep tightening.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> That happens sometimes. If it's loose enough for a leash to pull on, might be worth downgrading size so that you can get a more accurate fit.


It's already the micro. No more downgrading


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> They feel it. Just because they ignore it, doesn't mean they don't feel it.


Lol yeah I mean they don't feel it enough to pay attention)))))


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

You don't have a micro prong collar. There are much smaller sizes.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> You don't have a micro prong collar. There are much smaller sizes.


Can you send a link? I think this is the smallest leerburg sells
I meant herm sprenger that leerburg sells.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I *could* be wrong, but your collar looks like a 3 or 3.2mm

Leerburg sells 2.25s as well, which I *believe* is the size I use on my border collie. Leerburg | Herm Sprenger Chrome Prong Collars


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I *could* be wrong, but your collar looks like a 3 or 3.2mm
> 
> Leerburg sells 2.25s as well, which I *believe* is the size I use on my border collie. Leerburg | Herm Sprenger Chrome Prong Collars


Oh no, mine IS 2.25. But I have the 3 in black as well

Actually, I bought this one for the same reason, to be able to fit it tighter but now I just like it period. 

I'm ok with it the way it is, works perfect. It just showed me how heavy my leash is and how much constant pressure there's on it. 

I went through the trouble of sewing a light weight connection so that he doesn't feel constant pressure. Tightening It would be counterproductive))


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not sure why you posted asking if you already know all the answers? 

If that's the 2.25 then it's possible HS doesn't make smaller ones, but they do exist- my border collie doesn't use one that large.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not sure why you posted asking if you already know all the answers?
> 
> If that's the 2.25 then it's possible HS doesn't make smaller ones, but they do exist- my border collie doesn't use one that large.


I was asking for a way to avoid having constant pressure on the prong. I was wondering which leashes people are using. 

It looks like people think the pressure isn't sufficient enough to worry about but I want to avoid it if I can. 
I don't like the idea of him always feeling the prong. Maybe I'm wrong But I don't like it. 

Also,I like leerburg prong dominant leash but they don't sell light biotane versions of it with light hardware. 
I guess I was looking for ideas on light leashes to use for 2 collars (prong and dominant as backup)

While I was posting I sewed a connection that I can now use with any leash. So no more issues )))

I don't mean to come off as a know it all, I learned a lot from this forum, from you as well


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Try removing a link and see how he reacts. Feeling something is different from being in pain.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> Try removing a link and see how he reacts. Feeling something is different from being in pain.


Why? If I was having a problem controlling him or popping him then I'd try but it's perfect for us this way. 

When I take a link out I can tell that he's constantly feeling it. Of course he doesn't whine, doesn't act in pain and seems normal but i know that it's putting constant pressure on him. 



As far as the leash weighing down. 
It's not pain, I'm sure he barely feels it. But to me it's unnecessary discomfort. There're no advantages to it. 
I pit him through enough discomfort with all the corrections that when it's not needed I'd rather him not have to endure anything however slight.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

lalachka said:


> Why? If I was having a problem controlling him or popping him then I'd try but it's perfect for us this way.
> 
> When I take a link out I can tell that he's constantly feeling it. Of course he doesn't whine, doesn't act in pain and seems normal but i know that it's putting constant pressure on him.
> 
> ...


Use a flat collar or no collar at all!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Use a flat collar or no collar at all!


I made something lightweight. 

Micro prong is pretty sharp. Having it on a dog's neck for a few hours every day with constant pressure to me is unnecessary discomfort
I don't get why you're making fun of my desire to make him as comfortable as I can.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

What's funny about using a flat collar?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> What's funny about using a flat collar?


Paired with 'or no collar at all' it was a jab. 

and if I'm using the prong then there's a reason for it


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I am sorry you feel that way. Both (flat and no collar) are very practical options. Sorry again to have wasted your time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I like Gripper leashes The Gripper Leash ~ The Ultimate Edge


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> I am sorry you feel that way. Both (flat and no collar) are very practical options. Sorry again to have wasted your time.


Lol wasting my time?

No collar? How? Aren't there leash laws everywhere?

About the prong. My dog is reactive. Even though he's been good for a month I will never take the chance of walking him without the prong.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> I like Gripper leashes The Gripper Leash ~ The Ultimate Edge


I'm ordering one. That's not the first time I heard of these

Why the ring on the handle. Any way to order without it?

And thank you


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the ring on the handle is so that you can put the leash across your shoulders or around your waste so that you can have your hands free when the leash is not in use for the dog , like when you are playing ball .

yes you can order without the ring - that is what I buy .

their leashes are very strong


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> No collar? How? Aren't there leash laws everywhere?


When you have a well-trained dog, you tend to forget about leash laws because it's a minor risk. I probably break leash laws at least 7 times a week and for most bathroom breaks on long trips to competitions. Not bragging here, just stating a fact. Mine aren't even leash trained (because they almost never use them) so when they do have to wear one it's very odd. Training without a collar/leash is ideal because you know that you have ultimate control and don't have to rely on a prong collar for the rest of your life. Just extra peace of mind, you know?

A lot of times prongs can also create a lot of tension (because there is *usually* constant pressure on the neck of the dog if you're using the collar right) in reactive dogs and it may be beneficial to try something else if you haven't already.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

carmspack said:


> I like Gripper leashes The Gripper Leash ~ The Ultimate Edge


 
I'm kind of liking the looks of this -- do you have the new light one? I don't know which length to order. I do like the thought of the 4' having the option to head/shoulder it so that my hands are free but I'm trying to think if that will give Roxy much room to loose leash and correct if I have it slung over my head and under my arm????


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

The leads aren't meant to be around your body and in use. You clip them around you to keep them in place when you're not using them.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> When you have a well-trained dog, you tend to forget about leash laws because it's a minor risk. I probably break leash laws at least 7 times a week and for most bathroom breaks on long trips to competitions. Not bragging here, just stating a fact. Mine aren't even leash trained (because they almost never use them) so when they do have to wear one it's very odd. Training without a collar/leash is ideal because you know that you have ultimate control and don't have to rely on a prong collar for the rest of your life. Just extra peace of mind, you know?
> 
> A lot of times prongs can also create a lot of tension (because there is *usually* constant pressure on the neck of the dog if you're using the collar right) in reactive dogs and it may be beneficial to try something else if you haven't already.


I do too, also every day. But i will never walk the streets without a leash. Our streets are packed and even if they werent, the roads are too close. 

And even if he never reacts again, I will always have the prong on. Just in case. I've seen his reactions and his strength during them and not taking a chance. 
He hasn't bitten and I don't think he will but people get genuinely scared and no one deserves to have a dog going crazy on them



ETA I still don't get the point of constant pressure. Why should it be there? What's the point of it?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Maybe your definition of "pressure" and mine are two different things. I wouldn't go as far as calling the weight of the leash "constant pressure". Its not inhibiting my dog in any way, so I guess there really is no point to it. My dogs don't know the difference.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Maybe your definition of "pressure" and mine are two different things. I wouldn't go as far as calling the weight of the leash "constant pressure". Its not inhibiting my dog in any way, so I guess there really is no point to it. My dogs don't know the difference.


Mine doesn't either, it's me that feels it lol


Anyway, the constant pressure in my question is from dj 's statement that if the prong is fitted right then it's so tight that there's constant pressure. Not from the leash, from the prong itself
I don't understand why it should be so tight that the dog constantly feels it

ETA I weighed the hardware on my leash, half a pound. Not the end of the world but half a pound pulling on the micro is probably noticeable. 
Or maybe I'm neurotic


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

How many links are there on your prong collar??

SuperG


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> The leads aren't meant to be around your body and in use. You clip them around you to keep them in place when you're not using them.


  oh sigh .....that was a great idea. I do have the one that is hands free and goes around my waist....works ok but I am liking the looks of this light one you posted.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Mine doesn't either, it's me that feels it lol
> 
> 
> Anyway, the constant pressure in my question is from dj 's statement that if the prong is fitted right then it's so tight that there's constant pressure. Not from the leash, from the prong itself
> I don't understand why it should be so tight that the dog constantly feels it


 It shouldn't be tight, but it should be snug enough to not slip down the neck, so yes, there would always be a bit of pressure from it. That is how you properly fit a prong collar so it's in the right place and the right tightness to be effective.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Anyway, the constant pressure in my question is from dj 's statement that if the prong is fitted right then it's so tight that there's constant pressure. Not from the leash, from the prong itself
> I don't understand why it should be so tight that the dog constantly feels it


 The whole premise of a prong collar, is that they fit snug with constant pressure all the way around the neck, so that when the dog is corrected, pressure is distributed evening around the neck and not putting more force on the front of the neck like a flat collar, martingale, or slip collar. If it's loose, it's going to slide down and become ineffective, or not tighten with proper pressure distribution, at which point you may as well have a slip collar on the dog because it's serving the same purpose.

I've said it three times, three different ways. This is HOW a prong collar works.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> oh sigh .....that was a great idea. I do have the one that is hands free and goes around my waist....works ok but I am liking the looks of this light one you posted.


What about this

http://www.ruffwear.com/roamer-leash-stretching-dog-leash


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> The whole premise of a prong collar, is that they fit snug with constant pressure all the way around the neck, so that when the dog is corrected, pressure is distributed evening around the neck and not putting more force on the front of the neck like a flat collar, martingale, or slip collar. If it's loose, it's going to slide down and become ineffective, or not tighten with proper pressure distribution, at which point you may as well have a slip collar on the dog because it's serving the same purpose.
> 
> I've said it three times, three different ways. This is HOW a prong collar works.


Lol so if I say something 3 times it becomes the truth?

For the pressure to be distributed evenly there doesn't have to be constant pressure. As long as the ends don't come together it will be distributed evenly

If the ends DO come together then it won't be as the choker and put force on the front of the neck. It will act as the flat collar and will put pressure opposite the direction from which you're popping

If you were here I'd show you what I'm saying. I'm not good with explaining things


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> It shouldn't be tight, but it should be snug enough to not slip down the neck, so yes, there would always be a bit of pressure from it. That is how you properly fit a prong collar so it's in the right place and the right tightness to be effective.


Yep but the problem is that because the links are about an inch long It's hard to get the exact fit. 
His is looser than I like but one more link makes it way too tight. I'm ok with it, I'd rather avoid the unnecessary pressure. To each his own. 

Constant pressure is by no means a must. It's a byproduct of the requirement of it staying my the ears and not sliding down. That's what I'm trying to explain


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> How many links are there on your prong collar??
> 
> SuperG


I can count when I get home but what will it tell you? You don't know the size of my dog's neck. 

I bought the 2.25 prong and 4 extra links. I think I'm using 3 of the extras. Or two


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Lol so if I say something 3 times it becomes the truth?


 No, but you keep ASKING. I keep explaining it and you're not understanding. 



> For the pressure to be distributed evenly there doesn't have to be constant pressure. As long as the ends don't come together it will be distributed evenly
> 
> If the ends DO come together then it won't be as the choker and put force on the front of the neck. It will act as the flat collar and will put pressure opposite the direction from which you're popping
> 
> If you were here I'd show you what I'm saying. I'm not good with explaining things


 Yes, there does. If it is loose, more pressure is going to go to the front of the neck until it completely tightens, regardless of how tight it's tightened. This is the whole reason for prong collars not being loose, and kept high on the neck. So that there is no risk of neck/trachea damage.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No, but you keep ASKING. I keep explaining it and you're not understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there does. If it is loose, more pressure is going to go to the front of the neck until it completely tightens, regardless of how tight it's tightened. This is the whole reason for prong collars not being loose, and kept high on the neck. So that there is no risk of neck/trachea damage.


I'm understanding, I'm not agreeing. 
But I'm not going to keep beating this. You stay with your opinion and I stay with mine


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

:headbang:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Once I ordered a leash from this guy, that is all I reach for and won't use anything else

SuperGrip


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Once I ordered a leash from this guy, that is all I reach for and won't use anything else
> 
> SuperGrip


Looks amazing. How heavy is it? He warns that it's heavier than the usual stuff

If I'm going to use heavy then I will stay with my leerburg leashes, I really do like them a lot.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I dislike my Leerburg leashes because they're so heavy. This one is very, very, light. If you don't like it after you order one, send it to me and I'll pay you for it!

He will make it in any size you want, ring or no ring.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> I dislike my Leerburg leashes because they're so heavy. This one is very, very, light. If you don't like it after you order one, send it to me and I'll pay you for it!
> 
> He will make it in any size you want, ring or no ring.


Lol nope. I have over 10 leashes, gave another 10 away. Buying one more won't break me. 

Thank you, will order one now. Maybe he will make me a leerburg double leash in biotane. That would be perfect. This is what I was hoping for when I posted. Thank you very much!!!!!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I can count when I get home but what will it tell you? You don't know the size of my dog's neck.
> 
> I bought the 2.25 prong and 4 extra links. I think I'm using 3 of the extras. Or two


I will know the size of your dog's neck once you measure it. More importantly, what is the measurement of the chain loop connecting the 2 sides of the prong collar?...or is it already maxed out?


SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I will know the size of your dog's neck once you measure it. More importantly, what is the measurement of the chain loop connecting the 2 sides of the prong collar?...or is it already maxed out?
> 
> 
> SuperG


I will measure everything when I get home but only for the fun of it. I have no problems with the prong fitting. It works well, doesn't take much force and I'm comfortable with it. 

What do you mean if it's maxed out. What's maxed out?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I will measure everything when I get home but only for the fun of it. I have no problems with the prong fitting. It works well, doesn't take much force and I'm comfortable with it.
> 
> What do you mean if it's maxed out. What's maxed out?


maxed out.....the distance between the two ends of the prongs cannot be any greater due to the connecting chain being taut.


SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> maxed out.....the distance between the two ends of the prongs cannot be any greater due to the connecting chain being taut.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I posted pics on The first page. It's maxed until I pull on it or clip a heavy leash to it

There's a before and after on the first page. I can find a link if you want


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

The second picture shows slack in the chain....were you pulling on it at all that picture?

superG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> The second picture shows slack in the chain....were you pulling on it at all that picture?
> 
> superG


No, that's how heavy my leash is. That's why I posted the thread. 
I have a cotton leash that doesn't pull like that but I don't like cotton.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> No, that's how heavy my leash is. That's why I posted the thread.
> I have a cotton leash that doesn't pull like that but I don't like cotton.


I have mine fitted so when the leash is attached, the chain ( on the prong ) is taut. I have a normal 6 foot leather lead maybe less than an inch wide.

Was not your original concern regarding the fit/leash weight...that in the particular configuration you currently use...there is constant pressure on the prong collar?? If so, what indication from your dog tells you the collar with such a slight amount of pressure is discomforting to him/her?

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I have mine fitted so when the leash is attached, the chain ( on the prong ) is taut. I have a normal 6 foot leather lead maybe less than an inch wide.
> 
> Was not your original concern regarding the fit/leash weight...that in the particular configuration you currently use...there is constant pressure on the prong collar?? If so, what indication from your dog tells you the collar with such a slight amount of pressure is discomforting to him/her?
> 
> SuperG


None)))))
I saw how it sags when I clip it and started bugging out. 

It happens often around here lol
I'm surprised I didn't take him to the vet


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Well, you live on the edge....LOL

Ummmm..how about just tightening the **** collar up and taking a link or two out ??

SuperG


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Well, you live on the edge....LOL
> 
> Ummmm..how about just tightening the **** collar up and taking a link or two out ??
> 
> SuperG


Lol I know

What's it going to fix? Still pressure, i just won't see it anymore.


ETA BTW no more problems, I made a lightweight version and also ordered super grip leash. 

The cotton doesn't add weight but it gets dirty and wet and I don't like it. Biotane is perfect


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Lol I know
> 
> What's it going to fix? Still pressure, i just won't see it anymore.
> 
> ...



Yeah..there might still be a tiny bit of pressure...but the dog doesn't even care...most dogs...especially GSDs have rather fortified neck areas....strong ( muscular ) and well protected with thick fur and plenty of thicker looser skin than most any other region on their body. There's a reason for all that....the little pressure which might concern you is nonexistent most likely in your dog's world.....might even feel good.....??

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Yeah..there might still be a tiny bit of pressure...but the dog doesn't even care...most dogs...especially GSDs have rather fortified neck areas....strong ( muscular ) and well protected with thick fur and plenty of thicker looser skin than most any other region on their body. There's a reason for all that....the little pressure which might concern you is nonexistent most likely in your dog's world.....might even feel good.....??
> 
> SuperG


Hmm
You might be right. They do bite each other's necks and hard and enjoy it. 

Oh well, many pages of nonsense for no reason once again

Sorry everyone))))))

I did get a nice leash suggestion out of it though


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

No apology needed here.


SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just realized that I put the ecollar on pretty tight. One more thread coming. 

Joke. No heart attacks pls


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

twyla said:


> :headbang:


 
lol


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I just realized that I put the ecollar on pretty tight. One more thread coming.
> 
> Joke. No heart attacks pls



Go to the vet NOW!!!

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Go to the vet NOW!!!
> 
> SuperG


Lolol yeah way overdue))))






lyssa62 said:


> lol


It's amazing how many people don't understand how the tools they're using work. you must be one of them. 
To me what I'm saying is so clear that I can't understand how it's not obvious to everyone else.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> It's amazing how many people don't understand how the tools they're using work. you must be one of them.
> To me what I'm saying is so clear that I can't understand how it's not obvious to everyone else.


It is amazing. You are one of those people... You have no idea how a prong collar works. You are being clear, but it isn't accurate. It's not a matter of opinion.


----------



## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> It is amazing. You are one of those people... You have no idea how a prong collar works. You are being clear, but it isn't accurate. It's not a matter of opinion.


Yep that's what I'm saying. It's not a matter of opinion. 

There's no need to have pressure on the prong. As long as it stays by the ears and the ends of the prong don't meet when correcting it's being used as designed and the pressure is distributed evenly. 

The pressure doesn't accomplish anything. It's a side effect of people trying to have it by the ears. 

What's not correct?

Also, you're def wrong that the prong used incorrectly becomes a choker. It never does. Totally diff design. It becomes a flat collar.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

This is an extremely loose prong. Because of the way the prong is designed the pressure will always be distributed evenly, no matter how loose you have it. 

Having it on pretty tight is for the purpose of 
1. Having it stay by the ears
2. Having the ends of the prong be far enough apart so that when you correct they don't meet and then the correction isn't pop and release but a pull. Like having it on a dead ring. Or using a flat collar to correct. 

If you do have it really loose and the ends do meet the pressure still isn't concentrated in one spot. It's covering about half of the circle on the side opposite of the ring. 

So if my dog wears the prong with the clip on the side of his neck then the most pressure will be on the other side of his neck. Not the front, not in one spot and it's still pretty even pressure as you can see. 


Prong test: http://youtu.be/Jj1FdoYCOnI


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka,

As far as the ecollar please fit it right before using. Because of how important the contacts are it needs to be consistent and snug, otherwise it can shift ands the stim can be a lot different. The prongs NEED to have constant pressure, if you're weary of that please rethink using it. You should only be able to fit two fingers under the band and 'barley' one between the neck and contact. If it's on for more than 12hrs it's suggested you move the location. 

The reason of this post suggests you're not a fan of constant pressure, please understand that this is necessary with an ecollar so there is consistent stim. Try the collar on your hand and shift it about, you'll notice the stim is different in different locations.\



lalachka said:


> If you do have it really loose and the ends do meet the pressure still isn't concentrated in one spot. It's covering about half of the circle on the side opposite of the ring.


But the most significant contact and pressure is the midpoint of that 'half circle', right? Making it the 'most' concentrated spot?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> lalachka,
> 
> As far as the ecollar please fit it right before using. Because of how important the contacts are it needs to be consistent and snug, otherwise it can shift ands the stim can be a lot different. The prongs NEED to have constant pressure, if you're weary of that please rethink using it. You should only be able to fit two fingers under the band and 'barley' one between the neck and contact. If it's on for more than 12hrs it's suggested you move the location.
> 
> ...


I was joking about the ecollar. I know how to use it. 

My prong is fitted right. I've been to 3 good sport trainers. As here, they all have their ideas on how tight a prong should be. One said I should take a link out, the other 2 said I should add a link. 

Can you explain the purpose of the prong having constant pressure? 

If it's really the midpoint of that circle (i can't tell, looks pretty even to me in the video) then this also happens when having it really tight. 

The design of the prong makes sure the pressure is distributed evenly. Tight or loose. 

However, it should be tight enough for the ends to not come together when correcting.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I was joking about the ecollar. I know how to use it.
> 
> My prong is fitted right. I've been to 3 good sport trainers. As here, they all have their ideas on how tight a prong should be. One said I should take a link out, the other 2 said I should add a link.
> 
> ...


Sagan, sorry, disregard my post. I thought you were talking about the prong. 

Yes, there needs to be constant pressure with the ecollar. 
My ecollar post was a joke about something I said earlier to SuperG

It's not that I'm not a fan of constant pressure. I don't see the reason for it with the prong. I do see the reason with the ecollar and that's why I'm not arguing about it.
I'm a fan of only using necessary inconvenience.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Can you explain the purpose of the prong having constant pressure?


Again, this has been explained a ton of times. You don't want to listen or accept it, so why are you asking?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Again, this has been explained a ton of times. You don't want to listen or accept it, so why are you asking?


Your explanation doesn't make sense. Everything you're saying can be accomplished without pressure. 

I thought Sagan was talking about the prong so I asked what his explanation was. He's not. I couldn't delete my post by the time I realized it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Your explanation doesn't make sense. Everything you're saying can be accomplished without pressure.


 Again, you already have all of the knowledge, so why are you asking?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Again, you already have all of the knowledge, so why are you asking?


I can be wrong. If i am I will admit it. Always willing to learn. 

I should really leave it alone but I got annoyed about the dumb posts earlier (not yours)


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh my, what happened in here? lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Holy cow, look at the views. You drive more internet traffic then google Lala. Why don't you start a thread on something real contentious and thought provoking, like harness's ? 

Lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Holy cow, look at the views. You drive more internet traffic then google Lala. Why don't you start a thread on something real contentious and thought provoking, like harness's ?
> 
> Lol.


))))))) 
It's all me refreshing and talking to myself

Hmmmmm. Maybe. When I get the inspiration. 

Besides, I'm not the harness pro. Need to study first, do some testing, experiments. You know?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> Oh my, what happened in here? lol


I'm sorry. I swear, I open threads with honest questions. And somehow they always go to heck and fast.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

When I put the prong on my dog, there is some pressure - otherwise I'd have it way loose and it would be sized to the widest part of his neck. So since it's placed higher than that, then there will need to be some pressure there. But to me, it's the same kind of pressure you have when you're holding hands with someone, fingers intertwined. Yuck, ever hold hands with someone who doesn't give any pressure?? Eww, it's like holding a dead fish! And when you want to have some secret wordless communication, you squeeze their hand? That's what my prong use is like - a pop on the prong is like the finger squeeze, "Hey, love ya" or "Hey, whatever" it's communicating something. That's all.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> )))))))
> It's all me refreshing and talking to myself
> 
> Hmmmmm. Maybe. When I get the inspiration.
> ...


If you get a harness, 

LLC Dog Harness | Lift Load Carry Dog Harness | Ray Allen Dog Harness | Ray Allen Manufacturing


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I have not read all responses but the way I like to have the prong is tight enough so that when my forearm is parallel to the ground the most I need to move my hand for a correction is the range of hand rotated down to top to communicate with him. I find I get the best response with this, so it means that he gets a little pressure when the collar is on. on the same token I can use the collar instead of for correction to amp him up with little backwards pops that are like heartbeats. Just food for thought.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> If you get a harness,
> 
> LLC Dog Harness | Lift Load Carry Dog Harness | Ray Allen Dog Harness | Ray Allen Manufacturing


Lol you're not getting any of my jokes)))))
This was a joke too. I was making fun of the fact that I made a video of the prong prrssure. 

But thank you. At some point I will need a good one. I will check it out. I was drooling over leerburg leather padded one.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

szariksdad said:


> I have not read all responses but the way I like to have the prong is tight enough so that when my forearm is parallel to the ground the most I need to move my hand for a correction is the range of hand rotated down to top to communicate with him. I find I get the best response with this, so it means that he gets a little pressure when the collar is on. on the same token I can use the collar instead of for correction to amp him up with little backwards pops that are like heartbeats. Just food for thought.


Lol that was a good move. You saved yourself a lot of insanity by not reading them. 

As far as the prong. I'd love to be able to see how tight you like it but it's not possible without you being here. 
If i take out one more link it's so tight that I don't hear the clacking sound when I pop. 

So how much do you like for your hand to move? Can you say it in inches? I read your sentence 7 times and I still don't get it. This is way past my intellectual level lmao

I agree though. I like for the movement of the hand to be short.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

This might help Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

Sometimes you will have it a smidge tighter or looser than is ideal because of the size of links. If it's really a problem I find sometimes going to a smaller link size is better, to get a better fit.

If it's too loose, you may as well not use it and find something else that you are comfortable fitting properly. 

It's not always safe to use poorly fitted equipment, it can create an unsafe or uncomfortable fit for the animal.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> This might help Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar
> 
> Sometimes you will have it a smidge tighter or looser than is ideal because of the size of links. If it's really a problem I find sometimes going to a smaller link size is better, to get a better fit.
> 
> ...


Lol my prong is fitted right. Actually, in the video he has slack. My prong is tighter than that. 
I also have the micro prong. So I have the best fit possible. 

This thread wasn't about my prong, i know how to use it and have no problems with it. 
I didn't like how heavy my leash was and asked for ideas and then it took a turn.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe the micro prong is too lightweight? I have a large, heavy prong collar - and my thick leather leash with the brass clip doesn't move it at all.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe the micro prong is too lightweight? I have a large, heavy prong collar - and my thick leather leash with the brass clip doesn't move it at all.


Exactly!!!! It's so light and that's what I love about it. So I didn't want to weigh it down even a little. 

In my mind that's the ideal situation. The dog doesn't feel the prong AT ALL until there's a correction. 

Yes, I know, the weight of the leash isn't a big deal but if I can use a leash that doesn't weigh anything then I will.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I have the opposite feelings, lol. I like using a sturdy leather leash, because in a pinch it can double as a strap - I know I wouldn't feel as confident swinging my light nylon leash, and it couldn't make that intimidating 'whoosh' sound, lmao. Believe me, no dog likes to come close to a whooshing strap. I think my leash has prevented more than a couple of fights. 

I also don't think there's anything wrong with the prong giving slight pressure to the neck area. As long as there's enough slack to give a correction - and all it is, is a quick flick of the wrist. The correction isn't a big CORRECTION, it's a slight "ahem, pay attention to this" a tad snugger, a slight tightening.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Lol my prong is fitted right. Actually, in the video he has slack. My prong is tighter than that.
> I also have the micro prong. So I have the best fit possible.
> 
> This thread wasn't about my prong, i know how to use it and have no problems with it.
> I didn't like how heavy my leash was and asked for ideas and then it took a turn.


 I have my doubts based on your posts 

Just buy a different/lighter leash then, I'm not sure what the point of this thread was.  Surely you don't need a bunch of strangers on the internet to tell you that, it's pretty obvious what the solution is, isn't it?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don’t want to be mean…but maybe you should spend more time working the dog, getting your timing down, and spending money on training classes rather than buying tons of leashes and less time worrying about how you can possibly minimize the already tiny amount of pressure that’s just going to occur due to the way a prong works when no correction is given…

You should worry about building drive in your dog, if you work your dog in enough drive…the pressure on the prong doesn’t matter at all. Even during a correction, the dog will figure out it did something wrong, but snap out of it due to the high level of drive.

I’m truly amazed at the amount of focus on something that absolutely doesn’t make any difference when it comes to training a dog, and the complete lack of focus on what needs to be done…TRAINING THE DOG.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> I have my doubts based on your posts
> 
> Just buy a different/lighter leash then, I'm not sure what the point of this thread was.  Surely you don't need a bunch of strangers on the internet to tell you that, it's pretty obvious what the solution is, isn't it?


I knew what the solution was in my first post. I was looking for good leash ideas. 
What I'm really looking for is a lightweight version of the leerburg dominant prong leash


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I don’t want to be mean…but maybe you should spend more time working the dog, getting your timing down, and spending money on training classes rather than buying tons of leashes and less time worrying about how you can possibly minimize the already tiny amount of pressure that’s just going to occur due to the way a prong works when no correction is given…
> 
> You should worry about building drive in your dog, if you work your dog in enough drive…the pressure on the prong doesn’t matter at all. Even during a correction, the dog will figure out it did something wrong, but snap out of it due to the high level of drive.
> 
> I’m truly amazed at the amount of focus on something that absolutely doesn’t make any difference when it comes to training a dog, and the complete lack of focus on what needs to be done…TRAINING THE DOG.


I can do lots in one day. And worry about the leash. I'm gifted like that


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I don’t want to be mean…but maybe you should spend more time working the dog, getting your timing down, and spending money on training classes rather than buying tons of leashes and less time worrying about how you can possibly minimize the already tiny amount of pressure that’s just going to occur due to the way a prong works when no correction is given…
> 
> You should worry about building drive in your dog, if you work your dog in enough drive…the pressure on the prong doesn’t matter at all. Even during a correction, the dog will figure out it did something wrong, but snap out of it due to the high level of drive.
> 
> I’m truly amazed at the amount of focus on something that absolutely doesn’t make any difference when it comes to training a dog, and the complete lack of focus on what needs to be done…TRAINING THE DOG.


For once, we agree! :help:


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I knew what the solution was in my first post. I was looking for good leash ideas.
> What I'm really looking for is a lightweight version of the leerburg dominant prong leash


Is this what you have? 

...Just order 3/8" biothane with light hardware like this. It'd weigh next to nothing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Is this what you have?
> 
> ...Just order 3/8" biothane with light hardware like this. It'd weigh next to nothing.


Yes!!
From who? 
I emailed the guy from Sunflowers post a few days ago, no reply. I will hound him until he does lol


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Martem, if i lived in Oklahoma and my dog only had the prong on for training then I wouldn't care about it. 
I don't though. And he spends many hours a day in the prong. And most of those hours he isn't in drive. He's walking the streets or running the forest dragging a leash. 

And he most def feels the leash. Sometimes I have him on a short leash and then I release him to go sniff and give slack, the leash drops to the ground and he turns his head. 

He most def feels the slight tug and is probably wondering what I'm trying to say by it. 

just because to you this might not be important because your dog lives in the car, to others it might actually be a big deal.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> And he most def feels the leash. Sometimes I have him on a short leash and then I release him to go sniff and give slack, the leash drops to the ground and he turns his head.


You may be mis- reading that Lala. I would bet that has nothing to do with the weight of the leash or the collar, he's aware of and probably sometimes bothered by the leash dragging and its going to be the same with biothane. Its just the fact that its there.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I have the opposite feelings, lol. I like using a sturdy leather leash, because in a pinch it can double as a strap - I know I wouldn't feel as confident swinging my light nylon leash, and it couldn't make that intimidating 'whoosh' sound, lmao. Believe me, no dog likes to come close to a whooshing strap. I think my leash has prevented more than a couple of fights.
> 
> I also don't think there's anything wrong with the prong giving slight pressure to the neck area. As long as there's enough slack to give a correction - and all it is, is a quick flick of the wrist. The correction isn't a big CORRECTION, it's a slight "ahem, pay attention to this" a tad snugger, a slight tightening.


Lol I never thought of it as a weapon. Yeah you can def kill someone with that leash

I can't have anything cotton anyway. I'm out in snow, rain, sometimes he's dragging the leash so he pees and poops on it. It also gets muddy. 
I don't want to have to wash it all the time. 
Leather - it all dries and falls off or can be wiped off. 

I need either leather or biothane so hopefully I can order one.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> You may be mis- reading that Lala. I would bet that has nothing to do with the weight of the leash or the collar, he's aware of and probably sometimes bothered by the leash dragging and its going to be the same with biothane. Its just the fact that its there.


It's the moment I drop it. I don't let it drag on the street. I give slack, it drops on the floor and gives a tug. I can record it

This is the real reason I'm bugging out over this and this is why I started paying attention to the weight


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> You may be mis- reading that Lala. I would bet that has nothing to do with the weight of the leash or the collar, he's aware of and probably sometimes bothered by the leash dragging and its going to be the same with biothane. Its just the fact that its there.


I know I'm not misreading it because it doesn't happen with the light cotton one. 
I just don't like cotton


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Yes!!
> From who?
> I emailed the guy from Sunflowers post a few days ago, no reply. I will hound him until he does lol


I could make that for $20 plus $3 shipping.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you want a light leash, use 3/8" biothane without a giant brass snap or go to any pet store and get the 1/2" cheap nylon leash in whatever length you want. I have both types, use both.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Martem, if i lived in Oklahoma and my dog only had the prong on for training then I wouldn't care about it.
> I don't though. And he spends many hours a day in the prong. And most of those hours he isn't in drive. He's walking the streets or running the forest dragging a leash.
> 
> And he most def feels the leash. Sometimes I have him on a short leash and then I release him to go sniff and give slack, the leash drops to the ground and he turns his head.
> ...


First...there's no reason for your dog to wear a prong while he's running through the woods. It's actually dangerous for him to run through the woods with a leash hanging on a collar that constricts. That's asking for a correction which has nothing to do with the weight of the prong or the leash or the clip on the leash...it has to do with the leash getting caught on something and your dog getting a correction or just choking itself.

If you need a prong for control on walks, the dog will always feel some snugness unless you're actively asking him to heel. If it's for control, I'm not sure why you're looking for a lighter leash, if you're worried about your dog pulling towards something and needing to regain control (which is why you walk with a prong)...you should have a thicker leash that won't cut your hands during the pulling.

A prong is a training collar. There are very few occasions when if you're not training, the prong should be on. I only put on a prong when my dog comes out of the car to train...if it's on a walk...he's at the point where he doesn't need it. I don't want to say you 100% can do it...but I think if you focus on training him to walk normally so that you don't need a prong on walks, in a few weeks he should be able to walk without one.

I feel like I know enough about the issues with your dog...and so you wear a prong as a safety measure. It's not a big deal...but if the prong is on as a safety measure...the last thing I'd worry about is an extra half ounce of pressure on walks from the leash.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Lots of places sell 3/8 biothane without the big brass. Do a quick search on the internet and they will pop up. You can buy the leash without the loop at the end as well to make it even lighter and less likely to hook onto something when the dog is dragging it on the ground. My dog has a long line like it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Bear L said:


> Lots of places sell 3/8 biothane without the big brass. Do a quick search on the internet and they will pop up. You can buy the leash without the loop at the end as well to make it even lighter and less likely to hook onto something when the dog is dragging it on the ground. My dog has a long line like it.


I got one too and I already cut it in pieces and made the double connection. This all happened after I originally posted. I was posting and making it at the same time. 
Yes, it's amazing material but too thin. I'm ordering an3/4 pimpled biothane. 

As I keep saying I don't have problems anymore. As the posts were coming in I kept getting ideas and made a leash. 






DJEtzel said:


> I could make that for $20 plus $3 shipping.



Which one? Pimpled biothane like Sunflowers posted? I'd take it
If the regular then I made one already from the 3/8 biothane, will post a pic when I get home. I'd like to get the 3/4 pimpled biothane one, easier on the hands but i have the 3/8 now






Liesje said:


> If you want a light leash, use 3/8" biothane without a giant brass snap or go to any pet store and get the 1/2" cheap nylon leash in whatever length you want. I have both types, use both.



I have nylon already and I made the biothane. This all happened after I posted originally. I just needed the thread to jump my imagination 
Nylon I don't like, gets dirty, wet and muddy. But yes, nice and light 






martemchik said:


> First...there's no reason for your dog to wear a prong while he's running through the woods. It's actually dangerous for him to run through the woods with a leash hanging on a collar that constricts. That's asking for a correction which has nothing to do with the weight of the prong or the leash or the clip on the leash...it has to do with the leash getting caught on something and your dog getting a correction or just choking itself.
> 
> If you need a prong for control on walks, the dog will always feel some snugness unless you're actively asking him to heel. If it's for control, I'm not sure why you're looking for a lighter leash, if you're worried about your dog pulling towards something and needing to regain control (which is why you walk with a prong)...you should have a thicker leash that won't cut your hands during the pulling.
> 
> ...


Yes. It's on as a safety measure. In the woods I break leash laws so I'm way too scared to let him run with no leash. There are also horses, people and dogs. 

Yes, it's dangerous dragging a leash and now I clip the connection I made into a lightweight pull tab. 

I'm not taking any chances. He comes when called and behaves well but because I know he will react if I'm not on top of him I must be able to control him. 

And not true. There's no pressure with cotton leash. It's really light. And i have good control. It just gets nasty fast and doesn't have the double connection. 


However, since I posted I made my own. No more problems except I'd like to have the supergrip 3/4 inch leash. The 3/8 isn't the best on the hands.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Martem, i can walk my dog on a flat collar, he walks beautifully. The prong is there in case he decides to react. He doesnt react everyday now, it's once in a blue but when he does I must be able to control and correct.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

If he's reactive why do you let go of his leash in public parks? Kinda irresponsible. And as far as the pressure on the prong collar. If the dog doesn't notice and only you do, why does it matter? You aren't wearing the prong.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You paint the most confusing picture of what you are doing/what you need.

So the dog constantly wears two collars and two leashes? That way when he reacts you can correct with the prong? But that means the prong isn't always in you hands which means your correction would be too late anyways...

The prong leash is connected to a pull tab? So if you correct too hard the leash will come off? How is that supposed to mitigate the danger of getting snagged on something and also give you control?

Sorry...I get really mad when people talk about letting their dog go "off leash" when they admit that the dog might react to something and they don't have control. The prong...when the leash isn't in your hands, is useless. So you saying you have "control" isn't true. If you let your dog go, and he reacts, you don't have the control over him you think you do...maybe somehow that prong makes you think you do...but I don't see it. I didn't let my dog "off leash" in areas until I knew 100% he'd come back to me the moment I called him.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DobbyDad said:


> If he's reactive why do you let go of his leash in public parks? Kinda irresponsible. And as far as the pressure on the prong collar. If the dog doesn't notice and only you do, why does it matter? You aren't wearing the prong.


Because I kept him on leash for over a year and know that he won't bite. 
It matters because I care for the comfort of my dog. He does notice it when I give slack on the leash just doesn't say anything. 






martemchik said:


> You paint the most confusing picture of what you are doing/what you need.
> 
> So the dog constantly wears two collars and two leashes? That way when he reacts you can correct with the prong? But that means the prong isn't always in you hands which means your correction would be too late anyways...
> 
> ...


If i see a dog or anything walking that he might react to I call him to me and wait for them to pass by. If he reacts while I'm holding him then I can correct. 

He's never away from me if there's anything around us. 

Exactly what I'm saying. You don't know the whole picture, I don't want to write the book here. So just trust that I know what i'm doing and either answer or ignore. Don't lecture me, I'm not as clueless as you think.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I have one leash with a double connection for two collars. I can use that connection as a pull tab also. I will take pics later. 

He wears 3 collars, 4 with the ecollar. Prong, dominant, flat for tags and ecollar sometimes


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Lala, lets add in a halti and get this baby north of 5000! Lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lala, lets add in a halti and get this baby north of 5000! Lol.


I know lolol
Poor dog. But i don't have a better setup. 

I takes us a while to get ready lol


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

It matters because I care for the comfort of my dog. 

Do you think your the only one?



Exactly what I'm saying. You don't know the whole picture, I don't want to write the book here. So just trust that I know what i'm doing and either answer or ignore. Don't lecture me, I'm not as clueless as you think.[/QUOTE]

Really love how you ask for advice from others because you obviously don't have as much experience as them and then when advice is given you don't take it and try to justify your reasoning. 
Your not the first person to use a prong and not the only person that cares for your dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DobbyDad said:


> It matters because I care for the comfort of my dog.
> 
> Do you think your the only one?
> 
> ...


Really love how you ask for advice from others because you obviously don't have as much experience as them and then when advice is given you don't take it and try to justify your reasoning. 
Your not the first person to use a prong and not the only person that cares for your dog.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. The way I'm ridiculed for caring that there's pressure on the prong - I'm not sure anymore. 

I was asking for light leash ideas and whether anyone else cared about the weight of the leash weighing down the prong. 

The prong is one place where I'm pretty comfortable on how much i know about it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lala, lets add in a halti and get this baby north of 5000! Lol.


What's north of 5000? I don't know the American jokes lol


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Prong, Choke, Flat and Electric! Only items missing are harness and muzzle, now dog can be safely taken out for a walk. Oh and make sure the lines are super light so dog is comfy, I crack myself up. Super medicine for an afternoon at work


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Prong, Choke, Flat and Electric! Only items missing are harness and muzzle, now dog can be safely taken out for a walk. Oh and make sure the lines are super light so dog is comfy, I crack myself up. Super medicine for an afternoon at work


))))))) I'm glad you're enjoying yourself. I am as well

All for the people


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)




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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you care about the pressure on the prong...my advice was to train to the point where you don't need one. Simple as that. No matter what leash you put on, there will be pressure on the prong.

Then, you made a comment about how great of a dog owner you are because you let your dog run through the woods with a prong on and insinuated that I (or someone else) just make our dogs live in our cars...not sure what that meant. And my question was that you care so much about an extra ounce of pressure...and yet you don't care about the risk of your dog's leash grabbing onto something in the woods. Somehow, you've developed a system on the collar that would break off if the dog gets snagged on something...and yet won't break off if you do a strong correction...which I'm really interested in.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

What if you glued some velcro on your dog's neck and then had the other piece of velcro on the prong collar....it could be loose but yet not slip....

If velcro doesn't work...duct tape certainly will.....yeah...that's the ticket..duct tape the prong collar around the dog's neck.

SuperGenius


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> If you care about the pressure on the prong...my advice was to train to the point where you don't need one. Simple as that. No matter what leash you put on, there will be pressure on the prong.
> 
> Then, you made a comment about how great of a dog owner you are because you let your dog run through the woods with a prong on and insinuated that I (or someone else) just make our dogs live in our cars...not sure what that meant. And my question was that you care so much about an extra ounce of pressure...and yet you don't care about the risk of your dog's leash grabbing onto something in the woods. Somehow, you've developed a system on the collar that would break off if the dog gets snagged on something...and yet won't break off if you do a strong correction...which I'm really interested in.


He's already trained. I'm not sure how to train out his reactivity. Maybe one day someone can teach me. For now the prong stays there. 

What I meant by the car comment was that people not living in the city don't walk a lot. They drive, train, drive back. I rarely drive with him, we walk a lot and on crowded streets. Or in the woods with still a lot of people. 
I have diff needs than someone living in the suburbs. I don't even have a car by my apartment, it's by my dad's. Totally diff lifestyle. 

There are trails and therr are woods in the forest. On the trails he drags a leash, it's just lkke a road and thats where most people, dogs and horses are. Then we go deeper, almost no one there and I just leave a pull tab. There he can catch onto stuff. 

I didn't develop a breakaway. It's just a prong/dominant connection that also becomes a pull tab. So it's much shorter and lighter than a leash.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> What if you glued some velcro on your dog's neck and then had the other piece of velcro on the prong collar....it could be loose but yet not slip....
> 
> If velcro doesn't work...duct tape certainly will.....yeah...that's the ticket..duct tape the prong collar around the dog's neck.
> 
> SuperGenius


I have a better idea. I can staple it to his neck. Duct tape is too messy. I will staple 2 carabins to his neck and then I can easily put the prong on and take it off. 

Will do after work and report back


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Packen said:


> Prong, Choke, Flat and Electric! Only items missing are harness and muzzle, now dog can be safely taken out for a walk. Oh and make sure the lines are super light so dog is comfy, I crack myself up. Super medicine for an afternoon at work


You amuse me.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Before you order a 3/4 - make sure they aren't using the heavier brass if weight of the brass is important to you. I don't think the 3/4 will be using the same light brass as a 3/8.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Bear L said:


> Before you order a 3/4 - make sure they aren't using the heavier brass if weight of the brass is important to you. I don't think the 3/4 will be using the same light brass as a 3/8.


I did ask for the lightest hardware. Still no reply. Maybe he read my threads lol?

But thank you for not joining in and for honest suggestions


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dj, just curious. How do you make the biothane leashes? I sewed mine by hand and it took a few hours. 
You have a machine? A special sewing machine or any machine takes them?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Packen said:


> Prong, Choke, Flat and Electric! Only items missing are harness and muzzle, now dog can be safely taken out for a walk. Oh and make sure the lines are super light so dog is comfy, I crack myself up. Super medicine for an afternoon at work


All those collars and then let off leash to run. But only if she doesn't see someone else. Of course in parks, people, dogs, wildlife can appear seemingly out of nowhere. I don't get it..


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

ksotto333 said:


> All those collars and then let off leash to run. But only if she doesn't see someone else. Of course in parks, people, dogs, wildlife can appear seemingly out of nowhere. I don't get it..


Welcome to the club!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You guy's can be the leaders of the "North of 3grand club"


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> You guy's can be the leaders of the "North of 3grand club"


or our very own special 'alpha dog club'
Only the finest of the finest can join. Unlimited tree marking and other perks. 

What's north of 3grand?
And what's north 5000 from before?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think its funny...any time you get a "my dog got attacked at the park" thread...people DESTROY the owners that allow their "possibly aggressive" dogs to go off leash knowing that they have those issues and can do that.

But...when that person is the one posting, the one fully admitting to allowing their sometimes reactive dog off leash with the safety of "dragging a leash"...no one wants to say anything, instead we try to attack those few that actually do say something.

What happened to all the warriors on that one thread that supported the people that will "do anything to protect their dogs"? The ones that were saying how it would just be nice if people would be responsible with their dogs and then we wouldn't run into these situations. Is it different because OP hasn't admitted to running into a situation where her dog went after a random person/dog on a hike somewhere? We're just giving advice about the type of leash that person should have on their dog's prong collar even though they won't be holding the other end.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

You don't give up do you. My dog isn't aggressive. He's a barker. He's 2 and hasn't bitten. Of course I can wait until he's 10 just to make sure he doesn't bite and let him off leash then.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

LOL, that must mean my dog isn't aggressive. He hasn't bitten anyone, so guess I can let him off leash. 

Wasn't it just a couple or 3 weeks ago, you weren't sure how best to handle your dog on a sidewalk because of his reactions? It is absolutely great that your dog has settled some in his reactions and appears to be just a barker, but should you bet his life on just being a barker in such a short time? 

And before you say it, nope, i don't know your dog or you, but can only go by what you have posted. Do some serious thinking before dropping the leash next time.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

to much drama as usual


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Amazing logic. Only dogs that have bitten someone before will bite again.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Twyla said:


> LOL, that must mean my dog isn't aggressive. He hasn't bitten anyone, so guess I can let him off leash.
> 
> Wasn't it just a couple or 3 weeks ago, you weren't sure how best to handle your dog on a sidewalk because of his reactions? It is absolutely great that your dog has settled some in his reactions and appears to be just a barker, but should you bet his life on just being a barker in such a short time?
> 
> And before you say it, nope, i don't know your dog or you, but can only go by what you have posted. Do some serious thinking before dropping the leash next time.


My dog is 22 months. He would've bitten by now. He had many chances. 

He's a barker. He reacts, if the person or a dog doesn't back away then my dog does. So I'm basically protecting my dog from being bitten by a dog that doesn't like getting barked at. 
And protecting people from being barked at


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DobbyDad said:


> Amazing logic. Only dogs that have bitten someone before will bite again.


No, a dog can bite at any time in its life. But then no dog should ever be off leash. Because any dog can bite if put in the wrong situation.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

"I will give it an honest try.
I'm a little down. I didn't learn anything new but I'm *starting to realize I can never trust him off leash. *That's not the end of the world but it is hard to exercise him dragging a 30 ft. Recipe for disaster"
This was posted by Lalachka on July 24,of this year in another thread. I guess he's gotten so much better...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> "I will give it an honest try.
> I'm a little down. I didn't learn anything new but I'm *starting to realize I can never trust him off leash. *That's not the end of the world but it is hard to exercise him dragging a 30 ft. Recipe for disaster"
> This was posted by Lalachka on July 24,of this year in another thread. I guess he's gotten so much better...


He didn't bite then, he still hasn't bitten till now. 

Few things happened since July. He has reliable recall, that's the main one. And the ecollar as backup.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> to much drama as usual


I don't start any drama. I ask questions and the forum takes off. Happens in my threads and in other people's threads

My fault is that I don't stop posting fast enough but then same can be said for those that feel the need to inflame with headbangs and emoticons. You know ))))))


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Dj, just curious. How do you make the biothane leashes? I sewed mine by hand and it took a few hours.
> You have a machine? A special sewing machine or any machine takes them?


I rivet my Biothane products.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> You amuse me.


I must warn you young lady that I am susceptible to compliments


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I don't start any drama. I ask questions and the forum takes off. Happens in my threads and in other people's threads
> 
> My fault is that I don't stop posting fast enough but then same can be said for those that feel the need to inflame with headbangs and emoticons. You know ))))))


It happens in people's threads that you make all about you. Just saying. Every single thread you post in becomes about how your feelings are hurt or would be hurt. A thread about rehoming a dog halfway across the country became all about you. These threads become a side show that nobody can possibly take seriously, let alone give solid advice. You get so many views and no responses (or oppositely, inflammatory responses) because people merely want to watch the wreckage. You don't listen to a thing anyone else says, ever, and yet you constantly post about the same problems with the same dog. 


(And I'm sure I'll get banned, but holy crap, really?! Someone has to say it, in light of all the "I don't understand what I do wrong?! People here must hate pet people!" posts.)


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Packen said:


> I must warn you young lady that I am susceptible to compliments


Typo! correction below,
"I must warn you young lady, I am susceptible flattery"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Packen - you are missing punctuation.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Punctuation is over-rated. Kinda like spelling.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Punctuation is over-rated. Kinda like spelling.


Punctuation is the difference between "let's eat grandma!" and "let's eat, grandma!"


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

3rd time is the charm!
"I must warn you young lady, I am susceptible to flattery"

Did I do it right O Empress Supreme?


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Honest questions: Why don't you just unhook the leash when you let him off rather than let it drag on the ground? The leash is irrelevant if it's not in you hand right?

I'm certain you know your dog more than anyone else but even if he's just a "barker" aren't you putting him in unnecessary danger if he barks aggressively at the wrong person and is off leash? If a dog get's too close to some people and is barking aggressively they will act and can potentially hurt that dog by hitting or with pepper spary

Maybe I shouldn't assume this (and maybe it will add unneeded drama) but do you leave the leash on so you can have plausible deniability of letting him 'off-leash' if there is an issue? "Sorry, the leash slipped and he just got away from he." I just don't understand any reason to let a dog drag their leash if the purpose is being off-leash.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Commas, periods, exclamation point...all so dramatic.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Packen said:


> 3rd time is the charm!
> "I must warn you young lady, I am susceptible to flattery"
> 
> Did I do it right O Empress Supreme?


:rofl: No, King Packen.

Here I'll help.

I must warn you, young lady, I am susceptible to flattery.

And if I have it wrong, I'm blaming the dog that's in my lap while I'm typing.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: No, King Packen.
> 
> Here I'll help.
> 
> ...


That is the synergy, we need, your highness.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm taking that synergy and going to bed.

Night all! May you all have a fun and drama filled night.

With love for all my subjects,
Empress Supreme


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I'm taking that synergy and going to bed.
> 
> Night all! May you all have a fun and drama filled night.
> 
> ...


:bows:
We are not worthy!

:wild:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> It happens in people's threads that you make all about you. Just saying. Every single thread you post in becomes about how your feelings are hurt or would be hurt. A thread about rehoming a dog halfway across the country became all about you. These threads become a side show that nobody can possibly take seriously, let alone give solid advice. You get so many views and no responses (or oppositely, inflammatory responses) because people merely want to watch the wreckage. You don't listen to a thing anyone else says, ever, and yet you constantly post about the same problems with the same dog.
> 
> 
> (And I'm sure I'll get banned, but holy crap, really?! Someone has to say it, in light of all the "I don't understand what I do wrong?! People here must hate pet people!" posts.)


I was talking about other people's threads where I'm not involved. It's the same old. Bunch of depressed grumpy people jumping on people and judging. 

As far as everything else. I'm not complaining. I can hold my own. I get useful responses, everything else is for fun. I'm def not crying about it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

lalachka said:


> What's the purpose of there being constant pressure?
> 
> As far as chokers vs prongs, it depends how much slack. As long as the ends of the prong don't come together when you pop you're ok
> Told by a world class trainer.


The purpose of constant pressure is to keep the dog on alert. 

Your prong is too tight for a pet dog (in my opinion.) If you are walking a hard dog that needs the management of constantly feel his master's hand on the regulator, you want it as tight as you have it. 

Your dog knows what's expected of him but doesn't always do it. For whatever reason, I suspect failure to maintain consistence and random attempts at different tools (prong AND an ecollar???) 

I take all this to mean your dog requires correction for behaviors you're trying to refine. So you don't want that prong tight which cause him to be in a constant state of agitation. You want his prong loose. 

Yes the ends should meet if you're popping him but ask yourself why do you need to pop him to get his attention? It's because his prong is too tight. He always feels the prongs so you have to yank on it to get his attention. 

Shouldn't be that way when you're teaching him how to simply walk politely. If the prong is barely felt, a slight pull or mistep causes the dog to pop himself. If it's too tight, they blow it off.

Feh, world class trainer. Venus was fitted for a prong by a facility who's trainers value their rankings. They fitted her in the prong but couldn't get her to walk nice without a lot of edible motivation. The scruffy PSDS service dog trainer I'm working one on one with now, he put her in a loose prong, she's a dream to handle.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

martemchik said:


> You paint the most confusing picture of what you are doing/what you need.
> 
> So the dog constantly wears two collars and two leashes? That way when he reacts you can correct with the prong? But that means the prong isn't always in you hands which means your correction would be too late anyways...
> 
> ...


^ that!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> Honest questions: Why don't you just unhook the leash when you let him off rather than let it drag on the ground? The leash is irrelevant if it's not in you hand right?
> 
> I'm certain you know your dog more than anyone else but even if he's just a "barker" aren't you putting him in unnecessary danger if he barks aggressively at the wrong person and is off leash? If a dog get's too close to some people and is barking aggressively they will act and can potentially hurt that dog by hitting or with pepper spary
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't assume this (and maybe it will add unneeded drama) but do you leave the leash on so you can have plausible deniability of letting him 'off-leash' if there is an issue? "Sorry, the leash slipped and he just got away from he." I just don't understand any reason to let a dog drag their leash if the purpose is being off-leash.


Where did you even come up with that? And what gave you the impression I can't take responsibility for my actions?
I don't sneak around and scheme. If i mess up then I apologize. 

The reason for the dragging leash is because if he runs up to a dog and starts barking it takes me a while to catch him. Sometimes almost a minute. He keeps circling and I keep chasing him and this is all while the dogs are going crazy at each other. 

He hasn't done it in a while but it will be a few more months before I'm comfortable taking the leash off 

It's only a few places I still let the leash drag. Most places I let him off, but the trails depending on the time of the day and the crowdiness I sometimes let it drag 

About him being in danger. 
He's been good, that's why he's off leash at all. Finally I'm at a place that I'm comfortable letting him off leash. 
He comes when called and I can stop the rare reaction pretty quick. 
I'm just nervous because of everything we've been through. 

As time goes on without incidents I will feel better and he won't drag a leash.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SunCzarina said:


> The purpose of constant pressure is to keep the dog on alert.
> 
> Your prong is too tight for a pet dog (in my opinion.) If you are walking a hard dog that needs the management of constantly feel his master's hand on the regulator, you want it as tight as you have it.
> 
> ...


I only use ecollar for backup for recalls. Nothing else. The prong is for everything else which is a random pop if he's forging and a few hard pops if he does react. 

So it's not used a lot, maybe a few times a day a few light pops. 

You know I've thought about that (prong being tight as a way of keeping a dog on alert. That makes sense but i don't need it for my purposes) 

You think mine is too tight? The way it is now unless the leash pulls on it he doesn't feel it at all. 
It's even a little looser than I like but I'd rather looser than tighter. 

And exactly. That's what I'm beating on. He doesnt need to constantly feel it so I got a light leash. 

the way i understahd it, the ends shouldn't meet when popping. If they do then it becomes a flat collar and a pull instead of a pop and release. 

Thank you, all this is useful.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm awfully proud that my comment to The King elicited a grammar/punctuation war!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm awfully proud that my comment to The King elicited a grammar/punctuation war!


No flirting in my thread. This is serious business here. Straight insanity and nothing else. 

I'm joking in case it's not obvious. Carry on)))


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

lalachka said:


> The reason for the dragging leash is because if he runs up to a dog and starts barking it takes me a while to catch him. Sometimes almost a minute. He keeps circling and I keep chasing him and this is all while the dogs are going crazy at each other.


You're letting a not yet 2 year old do run rampaging through a park to catch other people's dogs and terrorize them? I would unload a whole can of pepper spray at 10 ft. 

What if he does this to a service dog? If a SD breaks his/her training and reacts to your dog, you're liable to the disabled person - think about that for a minute



lalachka said:


> He hasn't done it in a while but it will be a few more months before I'm comfortable taking the leash off.
> 
> It's only a few places I still let the leash drag. Most places I let him off, but the trails depending on the time of the day and the crowdiness I sometimes let it drag


Trailing a leash is useless. See also above that he runs off and terrorizes other dogs he can find. 

So which is it, you're trying to correct his running off behaviors or you give him the chance to run off? 30ft lines exist so the handler can HOLD the leash. 




lalachka said:


> About him being in danger.
> He's been good, that's why he's off leash at all. Finally I'm at a place that I'm comfortable letting him off leash.
> He comes when called and I can stop the rare reaction pretty quick.
> I'm just nervous because of everything we've been through.
> ...


Until you stop the 'rare reaction' completely ON LEASH, this dog should not be off leash. Otherwise, you're making everyone else who has a german shepherd look bad.

That's a period.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I woild reply but you're annoying me with your tone. You're wrong about everything you said.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> The reason for the dragging leash is because if he runs up to a dog and starts barking it takes me a while to catch him. Sometimes almost a minute. He keeps circling and I keep chasing him and this is all while the dogs are going crazy at each other.


In my opinion, if that's ever a possibility he shouldn't be off leash in public areas, he could approach the wrong dog and get seriously injured.

I really don't understand the reason for it having any pet off leash in a public area. It can only create a possibility for something bad to happen, by your dogs instigation or someone else's. I understand some dog's have 100% recall and owners feel it's okay to be off leash, I'm fine with that. However I don't trust everyone's judgment of their dog and I rather have mine right beside me if dog approaches ignoring it's owner.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Wait, if Packen is The King, Jax is the Empress, and I'm flirting with (I assume?) The King, does that make me The Queen? Because I'll take it. 

Now we need to find Jax an Emperor.

Eta; why do I *always* get accused randomly of flirting!? At least it's Packen and not Bailiff this time...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I woild reply but you're annoying me with your tone. You're wrong about everything you said.


Actually, she was spot on and said it more eloquently than I could have.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Danielle, may make you the concubine. 

Lala, if you're letting your dog charge other dogs and it takes you a minute to catch him, I'm just telling you, you're that person who makes us all look bad. 

Maybe you don't want to hear it from me over the internet that's fine. For your dog's sake, I hope you don't run into someone who's more heavily armed that I am on a walk.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> In my opinion, if that's ever a possibility he shouldn't be off leash in public areas, he could approach the wrong dog and get seriously injured.
> 
> I really don't understand the reason for it having any pet off leash in a public area. It can only create a possibility for something bad to happen, by your dogs instigation or someone else's. I understand some dog's have 100% recall and owners feel it's okay to be off leash, I'm fine with that. However I don't trust everyone's judgment of their dog and I rather have mine right beside me if dog approaches ignoring it's owner.


The public areas are the only place he can run. 
But i go only to those places that have the least people or late at night. 

The things I described are things he's done before. Yeah there's a possibility he might do it again but same can be said for any dog. I've done lots of work with him, I'm seeing it pay off. 
I will do my best to make sure he continues to do well.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

SunCzarina said:


> Danielle, may make you the concubine.


I agree with you and you dub me the concubine!?

I'll never be worthy of the throne. *pouts*


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Lala, are there leash laws where you take him?


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> The public areas are the only place he can run.
> But i go only to those places that have the least people or late at night.
> 
> The things I described are things he's done before. Yeah there's a possibility he might do it again but same can be said for any dog. I've done lots of work with him, I'm seeing it pay off.
> I will do my best to make sure he continues to do well.


I understand, would you consider getting a 30', 40', or even a 60' lead so that he can run but you still have control and can reel him in if anything happens? **** just get a long piece of rope and put a clasp at the end. Something is better than nothing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Juliem24 said:


> Lala, are there leash laws where you take him?


Yes and I break them.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> I understand, would you consider getting a 30', 40', or even a 60' lead so that he can run but you still have control and can reel him in if anything happens? **** just get a long piece of rope and put a clasp at the end. Something is better than nothing.


I have control, he comes to me every time. It's just my fears based on stuff that happened before. 

As time goes on I will feel better about it. 

He was on the 30' all this year. I finally felt safe letting him off. So far so good. I will continue making sure he does good. Will see what happens.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

DJEtzel said:


> I agree with you and you dub me the concubine!?
> 
> I'll never be worthy of the throne. *pouts*


I'll just slink back to my tower like a bad little dragon...


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

I have a reactive dog and I like the 30ft. We have leash laws here, too, but they are strict about them.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Juliem24 said:


> Originally Posted by *Juliem24*
> _Lala, are there leash laws where you take him?_





lalachka said:


> Yes and I break them.


With a dog you admit charges other dogs and causes trouble.



lalachka said:


> Posted by *lalachka*  The reason for the dragging leash is because if he runs up to a dog and starts barking it takes me a while to catch him. Sometimes almost a minute. He keeps circling and I keep chasing him and this is all while the dogs are going crazy at each othe


Yet you don't think I understand your situation. That's cute.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

lalachka said:


> Today, 03:39 PM
> I want an aggressive dog. They look beautiful when they're fighting or displaying.
> Actually they look beautiful when they're doing anything but aggression on a gsd to me looks breathtaking.
> Of course if the dog is clear headed. Otherwise it's scary but still beautiful lol
> ...


No.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Juliem24 said:


> I have a reactive dog and I like the 30ft. We have leash laws here, too, but they are strict about them.


Mine was on the 30 all year. Dangerous stuff lol but I'm sure you know all about it. 
I feel good about him being off leash. I haven't been bothered yet. Every time the cops come we are training or playing, they give compliments and leave. 

If i do get a ticket some day - oh well. I know I'm breaking the law.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Yes and I break them.


Are there places near you where you can go off leash and not break the laws? The leash laws are there for a reason, please don't break them.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> Are there places near you where you can go off leash and not break the laws? The leash laws are there for a reason, please don't break them.


No, therr aren't. The laws are there but everyone breaks them because there are no other places to go. 
My dog is under control. if something happens and I feel like he's not under control then he will go back on leash until I feel safe again.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have just a couple of quick comments.

Shadow is 4 and has never been off leash, and never will be most probably. I use a 25 foot line that clips around my waist that I made for $10. I will happily trade freedom for her life.

It is because of dogs like yours and people like you that her training has hit so many road blocks. I have a fear aggressive dog, who has been attacked a few times. A strange dog charging at her barking provokes a violent reaction. I am courteous enough to keep my dog on leash in public areas, I expect the same courtesy from others as it is the law.

As far as your collar, and the hardware, I could say try thinner leather with steel hardware instead of brass. What I would like to say instead is lose the collar. I have a dog that pulls like a truck. A flat leather collar has been my best friend.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Where did you even come up with that? And what gave you the impression I can't take responsibility for my actions?
> I don't sneak around and scheme. If i mess up then I apologize.
> 
> The reason for the dragging leash is because if he runs up to a dog and starts barking it takes me a while to catch him. Sometimes almost a minute. He keeps circling and I keep chasing him and this is all while the dogs are going crazy at each other.
> ...


If your dog is running up to other dogs and barking, you shouldn't be allowing him to run loose EVER!!!! Why on earth would you allow this?! 

This would be an absolute nightmare for someone like me, who's working really hard with their own reactive dog, potentially causing a setback in our own training. You don't have the right to do that to other people. 

Has it occurred to you that your dog might trigger another dog while it's running out of your control? That is totally unfair to your dog and everyone around you.

You're worried about leash pressure, but you don't care if your dog is running loose wearing a prong and dragging a leash to get snagged and likely give it a really hard/unwarranted correction? That is so dangerous, it's unbelievable.

I think instead of worrying about finding a good leash, you need to find a good trainer, maybe they can talk some sense into you. :crazy:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Wait, if Packen is The King, Jax is the Empress, and I'm flirting with (I assume?) The King, does that make me The Queen? Because I'll take it.


There already is a Queen, I AM the Queen!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

lalachka said:


> No, therr aren't. The laws are there but everyone breaks them because there are no other places to go.
> My dog is under control. if something happens and I feel like he's not under control then he will go back on leash until I feel safe again.


 He's NOT under your control. Period. 

He'd be under your control at all times if you held the other end of the leash, instead of risking his safety and that of others.

Unbelievable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

blackshep said:


> *He's NOT under your control. Period. *
> 
> *He'd be under your control at all times if you held the other end of the leash, instead of risking his safety and that of others.*
> 
> *Unbelievable.*


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

See...I really could care less about the going off leash thing in an on leash area. It's just the part where OP decided to attack some of us for the way we own dogs and then is trying to defend allowing a potentially reactive dog off leash because its "the only way the dog can run free."

I guess I'm with everyone else. Not seeing a reaction in a month wouldn't lead me to think my dog is now "safe" and that a minute of running around trying to corral my dog while its reacting at a person or at a dog isn't that bad. Makes me think of the last dramatic thread about a person grabbing a dog by the back end and making it yelp while this type of situation was going on...I mean...why would you put your dog in the situation to get corrected by someone else, and then you also have no idea how your dog would react to a possibly over the top correction from someone else.

It really has nothing to do with accepting the consequences that might come with letting your dog do that...it's fine that you accept the fine that might occur if you get caught...I live the same way. It's more about thinking about others, and the way you talk about wanting to be a great dog owner, owning a sport dog at some point, and really understanding where many of us come from when we try to tell you how stupid/dangerous something you do is. Sure...you won't mind when one of these people with a reactive dog yells at you a little or maybe hits your dog to get it away from theirs...but you don't worry about how that makes the other person feel, or how that might set their training back. Meh, you got what you deserved, who cares if that other dog just got set back a week, a month, or a year in training.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

blackshep said:


> He's NOT under your control. Period.
> 
> He'd be under your control at all times if you held the other end of the leash, instead of risking his safety and that of others.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Lalaland is going to tell you that you don't understand so she has no reason to comment.

I've met quite a few people like her in my life. It rarely ends well for the dog.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

You're probably right 

These are the people who make it utterly impossible for me to enjoy a hike with my own dog, and I resent it. Instead I have to train at home, because ignorant people refuse to use a leash.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Each one teach one. When I first lived in this neighborhood, there were dogs allowed to run loose. Luther flipped them all one by one when they charged at my fostercare dogs. Simply saying 'you should keep that dog on a leash' goes along way when the owner's screaming 'get him off get him' off as my dog's got theirs pinned to the ground by the throat and is making terribly threatening noises.

Now, I carry spray and an airhorn. Does it deter my idiot neighbors who beat their showline GSD into a realm of spooky I don't want to discuss? No. Deters their dog though.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No...I think the dog will be fine. I just think it’s almost comical to worry about an extra gram of pressure on a prong collar from a "heavy leash" and not worry about the possibilities of what can happen due to your dog being off leash.

I think OP is a responsible owner, way more responsible than most people. But I do hate the “rationalization” of doing what she does…especially because its due to emotions and not listening to people that are looking at it from the outside with no bias.

If this question was posed at my IPO club, we’d all go, “why is your dog off leash?” or “why does your dog have a prong on at that time?” and if we got the answers OP gave…I’m not sure what would happen. But I can tell you it wouldn’t be “try this leash or that one!”

Lala…for someone that wants to get into sport, especially bite sport…you’re really going to have to change the way you feel about your dog, and how much freedom you give him or any other dog you might have in the future after you see the dog present issues. I haven’t been doing bite sport for very long…but very quickly you realize the liability you have and how you have to be a leader and a model dog owner for the others out there. I’m not saying you have to treat your dog like a prisoner…but you do need to get a better idea of what you have at the other end of the leash.

My dog will get pissed off at 1/100 dogs he meets if that’s the one dog that decides to challenge him. So he doesn’t really get to meet strange dogs anymore. Just not worth it. When my dog was younger, and I did what you did (and still do it now), if my dog blew off a recall…he was leashed for the next month. We worked on recalls, and I made sure it never happened again. Now I know it was a mistake and I shouldn’t have put him in that situation in the first place…so with my second one I don’t…but it’s much better to learn this stuff from other people, then from a real life experience.

Maybe your dog just hasn’t run into a bigger/badder dog yet…or someone that just doesn’t care and lets their dog just defend himself or not stop their dog from reacting to yours. Maybe that will be the day you figure out why you should worry more about the off leash thing than the weight of your leash.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I will be expecting at some point to see a thread started by lala saying that her dog was attacked. I'm in agreement ...somewhere down the road and it WILL happen ..some dog isn't going to put up with her dog's crap and take it down. OR another dog owner isn't going to put up with the crap and correct it for her. Just a matter of time.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

lyssa62 said:


> I will be expecting at some point to see a thread started by lala saying that her dog was attacked. I'm in agreement ...somewhere down the road and it WILL happen ..some dog isn't going to put up with her dog's crap and take it down. OR another dog owner isn't going to put up with the crap and correct it for her. Just a matter of time.


It is. There used to be a dog across the street from me, Aussie shepherd, and he was allowed to be out of the yard because 'he's such a nice dog!' In the next yard, 135 lb Rottweiler who's owner is a mountain of a man who looks like MeatLoaf and acts like Gordon Ramsey. 

The second time the Aussie ran into the Rottie's yard and bite him, Mountain kicked him. He told me he did it because this dog was irritating, Mountain was proud of it.

The third time Assie ran into Rottie's yard, I was in my front garden. Mountain kicked that dog so hard the Aussie literally bent in half, I have no idea how he didn't have broken ribs.

The aussie's owner starts screaming and yelling he kicked my dog, did you see him kick my dog? I lied and said nope but come on you can't think it's okay for your dog to go running into Mountain's yard. The aussie's owner stormed away ranting HE KICKED MY DOG. Like the hard core alcoholic drunk chick she was.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, well I for one tried to answer the question and understand what was going on, so I don't appreciate being labeled



> Bunch of depressed grumpy people jumping on people and judging.


Lala, you have to realize that every few posts you make contradict themselves. First you said there is "sagging", then you said "there is no sag". Then you said your prong is fitted correctly because it is tight, but 10 pages later you say it's actually fitted a little loose for what you like. It's impossible to help with something as simple as fitting a prong because every other page gives a different description of what is going on.

Back to the original topic, I do not agree that you need to run out an buy featherweight leashes. Dogs are not dumb, in fact they are very smart and have something called "collar smart". Your dog knows what collars are on him whether there is any tension or not. If the dog cannot handle knowing there is a prong on him, then don't put it on him. He knows it's there even if you fit it perfectly and are walking him with a shoestring.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is difficult to follow now. If I'm reading this right, everyone's searching for an answer for a queen with no sag wearing biothane who will run through the forest with nothing catching to avoid a self correction in the yard of a mountain?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Omg I missed the party. 
my dog doesn't run up to anyone and that's why he's off leash. For the ones that can't read, what I'm describing is what happened last year and the reason he went on the 30 foot line for a year. 

But go on judging. The ones that can do no wrong and who give this breed such a good name. I'm honest about everything I do and that's the only difference between me and the ones judging. 

I guarantee you that if I knew you if find tons of things you've done with your dogs that I'd never do


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> OK, well I for one tried to answer the question and understand what was going on, so I don't appreciate being labeled
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about you. 

But it's not complicated. My prong is tight enough to be used right and to stay by the ears. However, if there was a way to take out half an inch I would. 
There's not. One more link makes it way too tight. So I left it looser than I like it. But tight enough to do the job. 

I already made a light leash. Because of the weight of that leash almost any move of my hands results in a slight tug.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I guarantee you that if I knew you if find tons of things you've done with your dogs that I'd never do


The only difference is that we learned from our mistakes and you are not.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Back to the original topic, I do not agree that you need to run out an buy featherweight leashes. Dogs are not dumb, in fact they are very smart and have something called "collar smart". Your dog knows what collars are on him whether there is any tension or not. If the dog cannot handle knowing there is a prong on him, then don't put it on him. He knows it's there even if you fit it perfectly and are walking him with a shoestring.


I have a collar for my Lacy that he ONLY wears in Agility. I have a flat collar that I use ONLY when he's on a track. I have a cut collar the I put on him ONLY when he goes into the bay pen. I have a light choke chain that I ONLY put on him when we are out in public. The MOMENT I put the different collar on him, he reacts accordingly. It's pretty amazing.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

anybody else starting to feel like this right about how with this thread?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

lyssa62 said:


> anybody else starting to feel like this right about how with this thread?


 I think Steve Strom is. lol :laugh:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I have a collar for my Lacy that he ONLY wears in Agility. I have a flat collar that I use ONLY when he's on a track. I have a cut collar the I put on him ONLY when he goes into the bay pen. I have a light choke chain that I ONLY put on him when we are out in public. The MOMENT I put the different collar on him, he reacts accordingly. It's pretty amazing.


Since my dog wears all his numerous collars at once he doesn't know anything except 'dang, 5 lbs of stuff on my neck is coming up'


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> I think Steve Strom is. lol :laugh:


Steve is not a hyena


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Steve is not a hyena


He could be. I don't think he's the queen though. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lyssa62 said:


> I will be expecting at some point to see a thread started by lala saying that her dog was attacked. I'm in agreement ...somewhere down the road and it WILL happen ..some dog isn't going to put up with her dog's crap and take it down. OR another dog owner isn't going to put up with the crap and correct it for her. Just a matter of time.


Just a month or two ago, her dog was extremely DA and PA. She couldn't walk down the street without her dog becoming a reactive maniac. She'd been through half a dozen trainers without any help at all. And then overnight....it's fixed. 

I suspect you are correct. You will see such a thread at some point. But I don't think it'll be based on truths.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> He could be. I don't think he's the queen though. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Not at all, if you're a hyena then the queen is the one to be


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm closing this thread. This is just another lalafest that isn't going anywhere.


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