# People Aggressive GSD - 4 years old PEDIGREE posted!



## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

Hello All,
I am a long time lurker and have learned so much from this board. Now I am in an impossible situation and feel totally helpless. Please forgive the long text but I really need advice, even if it is hard/tough advice.
First some background on me. I am an experienced GSD owner, my dogs are companion pets and live with me in my home. I have owned two DDR GSD, Abby who went to the Rainbow Bridge at 11.5 years in May and Bailey, 4 years. Both came from a reputable breeder here in Texas.
At 11 months old he had a series of seizures that Gulf Coast Animal Center said are called motor seizures in that he runs when the seizure hits losing control of his bladder and bowels. The seizures are now under control and he has not had one in over 3 years thanks to the phenobarbital he takes.
He was a very mouthy pup, i.e. would nip at children, even torn a pair of pants all nips were when he was under 6 months and were corrected immediately.
Then at 14 months he bit a neighbor who decided to reach over my wrought iron fence to pet him. Bailey was already excited because I was on the other side of the fence petting the neighbor’s dog. He did not break the skin and the bruise was gone the next day. 
At that point I upped his training specifically down, here, and watch. I also put in an Invisible fence to get him 4 feet off my fence line because people want to pet dogs and don’t always listen to the owner.
Fast forward 2.5 years Bailey is still dog aggressive, but his obedience is very good and he is manageable. Doing this time I have kept up with training, and watched for unwanted behaviors.
Now I feel comfortable in taking him to Petsmart, vet etc. I decide that another GSD is in order and apply and I am approved to adopt a GSD from a local rescue. I tell them about Bailey’s dog aggression, and it is agreed upon that it would be best to meet at the local Petsmart for the initial meet.
I get to the Petsmart and hour early to work Bailey and tire him out before meeting with my contact at the rescue. He takes treats from different people, and is spot on with his downs, and sits. (In my training down means down and sit means sit until I release you). My contact arrives, her dog is in the car and she is alone. I put Bailey in a down, hand the leash to my husband (mistake #1) and walk over to the rescue lady. She then ask if she can hug me (mistake #2) because she feels like she has known me forever, I say yes, then she goes to hug me and Bailey lunges and bites her on the thigh.
Fortunately, she is a GSD person, in GSD rescue and loves GSD’s. She said she realizes she should not have tried to hug me, but at this point my only concern is getting her to the hospital and her concern is Bailey and me not putting him to sleep.
I enlisted the help of a Sch trainer that the rescue recommended and he came out to evaluate Bailey. He says in his opinion Bailey is not so much aggressive but more frustrated and that there is hope for him. Several days later he gives me the cost of an 8 week class and at that point I realize I cannot afford the $800.00 dollars and tell him I will have to pass on the class but can he recommend any books or sites for help. I have bought several books, Don’t Shoot the Dog, and Excel-Rated; and bought Ed Frawley Aggressive dog video.
I have been working Bailey on focusing on me and looking to me for leadership, but with 100 plus degree weather his training is very slow.
I feel that it is a daily struggle to live with this dog because if it ever gets out he will harm someone. I had one GSD trainer who is also a Sch trainer tell me that Bailey is fear aggressive and will always be that way and if I choose to keep him that I must live his limited abilities. Then the most recent Sch trainer says Bailey is not so much aggressive but more frustrated and that there is hope for him. 
Am I wrong to be considering PTS? My husband who travels and doesn’t work with refuses to consider PTS.
Thank you for any suggestions or advice.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't think you're wrong to consider PTS. It's very stressful dealing with a human/dog aggressive dog and you are putting yourself at risk for a lawsuit if the dog bites the wrong person. 

I also don't think you're wrong if you decide to keep him. In this case I would recommend a muzzle when in public and would try to eliminate any potential for a bite. It will require you to be very proactive but it can be done.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Hugs


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

have no advice, a decision only you can make, but want to say i understand how you feel, i have a boy who cannot entirely be trusted with other people/strange dogs, and it requires constant vigilance, lots of energy, and a 100% commitment. it requires a total change in thinking about the dog, you always have to think in terms of how he's going to react to your behavior (letting somebody hug you). i do think there are some dogs who are more "possessive" than others, they think it's their job in life to make sure that nobody even looks at you the wrong way. i have made lots of changes in my lifestyle to accommodate my boy, but the years do pass and their lifespan is short in the whole scheme of things. i wish you much luck in making your decision, which is a hard one.

regarding the various opinions of different trainers...i would always err on the side of safety and would have to agree with the person who said you'd have to learn to live with bailey's limits and protect him from being able to do anything that would hurt anyone (and thereby himself).

and for what it's worth, i'm glad for your husband's input, and hope his opinion carries weight.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I guess my only advice would be to maybe try really hard to rehome him to a household that can deal with this type of dog. It will be extremely hard, as a dog with any kind of bite history has very limited options but I believe someone would be willing to take a risk and try to give this guy a happy life.

I have read much worse stories, and seen much worse dogs, than what you describe so I do believe this is manageable, it just depends on what you want to do. You might not ever be able to take him anywhere, or have him muzzled all the time, but there are ways that he can live out the rest of his days. At the same time once a dog bites one person (and in your case 2) they should be on a very very short leash. I completely understand you fear of him getting out and the fact that you want to rescue another dog is very noble, but with a dog like this around you probably won't be able to do that.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

note to the op, i would like to thank you for not even considering passing this problem along. the possibility of finding someone suitable is very remote, and it's alot more likely you'd be setting him up for failure.


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi,

Re-homing is not an option. I believe that is just passing on a very dangerous problem.

Thanks,


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

I have a PSA trainer that I go to in Magnolia. He might be able to recommend something. And I am just curious who you have asked for advice,i.e., Schutzhund trainer. I have done an extensive search in the Houston area and good ones can't be found. And what does he mean by frustrated? I have been given some BAD advice from so called local "experts". If you have to work your dog and tire him out for an hour at Petsmart, he was probably on overload and very stressed. This is a nerve issue. Just so you don't think that I am ragging on you, I am dealing with some similar problems. I don't ever take Wolf to the feedstore and Petsmart....just too much stimulation. I do however take him to horse shows and he stays with me at hotels. I can manage what people do around my dog and myself much better than in a crowded store.
I am not an expert and am still learning myself.

PM for my trainer's name. It will not cost you $800 to talk with him.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDLove said:


> Hi,
> 
> Re-homing is not an option. I believe that is just passing on a very dangerous problem.
> 
> Thanks,


I am sorry it has come to this, but I agree as well. Kudos to you for trying. I must also say you are not out of line at all for considering euthanasia. 
Remember that dogs don't see this as a horrible traumatic event like humans view their own deaths. There's times it is a kindness to put a dog down, and many people, through their own feelings towards death (or guilt about putting a "healthy" dog down) put it off and put it off.
You have to do what it takes to keep you and your family happy and safe.

Good luck whichever path you choose. We'll be here for you if you do choose PTS.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its hard to give advice since i cannot see the dog, but many dogs can be saved with the right training and leadership...........it takes ALOT of dedication almost a 24-7 job which alot of people are not equipt or willing to give, its Not easy.

its a hard decision, one that requires some long hard thinking of whats best for the dog.........


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

keep him muzzled and work
on his training and socializing.
good luck.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> keep him muzzled and work
> on his training and socializing.
> good luck.


I agree. And don't set him up for failure, i.e., like going to places like Petsmart. Too much stimulation for some dogs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You may want to post his pedigree - some may have some input based on that information?


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

Thank you all for your advice and help, I am so glad I posted. 

Yes, I will post his pedigree this evening when I get home from work.

Again thank you all for your help.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Muzzeling is fine just as long as you don't push situations on him...........progessing very slowly within his own comfort zone............he is already going to know with the muzzel on he's going to be at a disadvantage........so short, encounters paying attention to his signals, this process will take quite a while.........if you push him, you'll be back to square one.........


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

Attached is Bailey pedigree. 

Thank you for your input.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

We have a bite risk/history dog that we acquired in a semi-rescue situation. We were not aware of his tendencies until he bit one of our neighbors as she was walking by. We have worked with him and did have a couple of sessions with a trainer who helped give us some useful tips. He is an otherwise wonderful dog so we simply manage his contacts with strangers. If we pass someone of the sidewalk, he is pulled to the side onto a driveway or lawn and put in a sit until they pass. Just having them pass on the opposite side he is walking on is not enough. If we encounter someone with a dog, we cross the street. We muzzle him at the vet and the groomers when we take him to do his nails (although he has gotten so good with the nails thing we coudl conceivably stop using the muzzle, but it's not worth the risk)

Having said all that, if his behavior changed to the point his risk level increased, then we too would have to at least consider putting him down. We are nowhere near that right now and would be hesitant as long as we can manage his situation.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

GSDLove said:


> Attached is Bailey pedigree.
> 
> Thank you for your input.


Maybe start a post in the Pedigree and Bloodlines section so the appropriate people see it? Just give them a heads up they you are looking for anything that might suggest if his aggression is genetic.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I hit notify on the pedigree for this thread too.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

GSDLove said:


> Attached is Bailey pedigree.
> 
> Thank you for your input.


WOW! Often when people post a pedigree you don't see all those titles! I'm not good with the names but look forward to seeing what the experts say. 

Have you talked to the breeder?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I guess I really don't quite understand the call for pedigree analysis. Regardless of what the paperwork says, the dog is what he is. Looking at the pedigree yes I could see how such a dog could be produced from it... there is much sharpness and aggression coming from some areas... and less than ideal nerve strength coming from others. Put the two together, and it's a volitile combo to be certain.

But none of that really matters at this point in managing the dog. Can't go back and change his genetics. IF the dog can't be safely managed, I do agree that PTS may be the only safe option. Rehoming would certainly be grossly irresponsible and dangerous and I applaud the OP for realizing that is not an option.

Just based on what's been said, it doesn't sound like the dog is beyond hope. But then I can't see the dog either and words on a message board aren't sufficient to paint a truly clear and accurate picture of what is going on. Only an experienced, knowledgeable trainer, who's familiar with GSDs and aggression issues, and who can see the dog, and handler and environment (because those can play a huge role in these behaviors too) can really answer that. Can he be made normal? No, probably not. Can he be made reasonably safe and manageable? Probably yes. But it would take work to accomplish that and if the resources aren't available to accomplish that then for safety's sake an alternate road may need to be taken.

I also find the mention of seizures in his younger days interesting and possibly very pertinent. There are seizure disorders that can lead to aggressive outbursts. The common term for this is rage syndrome. That he's already on pheno might eliminate this as a possible cause. But then it might not. I'm not familiar enough with them to know. But I would certainly investigate a possible medical cause as well, especially if any of the aggression incidents seem to be out of nowhere outbursts with no warning or apparent trigger.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

GSDLOVE, did you try to contact my trainer?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I see red flags on the pedigree , but also agree that at this point it makes no difference. 
Do you feel you have to be cautious around the dog ? Has he ever shown you aggression or a signal that might worry you. 
I have seen cocker spaniel rage and it is unbelievable - the dog can be all wiggly happy and a milisecond later be like some demon possessed creature. Saw this first hand in the vet's waiting room . I had an appointment for an x ray , and then an emergency came in , and then customers . So a lady comes in with a cocker spaniel -- the receptionist comes around from behind her counter and oos and awws and the dog is wriggly and grovelly and even doing some submissive peeing for which the lady apologizes for . And then the dog lowers her head , does a neck roll , comes up eyes wide and all you are seeing is teeth and the dog is lunging at her , at me sitting at the bench at the other side of the room , and even at the owner who now has shortened the leash . The vet comes rushing out and gets the leash and leads the dog back into the clinic pens.

Are you thinking of getting the second dog because this dog is not the companion / pet that you were looking for. It may make the situation worse . Something to think about.

There are some books not often mentioned that I have as part of my large resource library. 
I would recommend "Jelly Bean versus Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde" by C W Meisterfled -- Amazon.com: Jelly Bean versus Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde (9780960129256): C. W. Meisterfeld, Darlene Perez, Richard Flinn: Books 
I have all the other titles by this author .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I see red flags on the pedigree , but also agree that at this point it makes no difference.


My thought in the pedigree analysis is that it helps you to know what you are dealing with. If it's deep rooted genetic aggression then it would certainly weigh in on my decision of just how managable the dog will be. It doesn't change how much work would be needed but it may change my expections on how far I can get.


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

No, Bailey has NEVER shown aggression to anyone in my household or friends that come to visit or when I take him to the vet he shows no aggression there. I can take a steak bone out of his mouth, cut his toenails, give him meds, and tell him to off any furniture without any growls, or bites. 

He shows aggression towards other dogs and people on the sidewalk behind my home that has a wrough iron fence. But if I am playing ball with him he will ignore the dogs or people to play ball he is very ball driven. At 12 weeks he would retrieve a ball.

I have spent quite a lot of money on him so far with training over his 4 years. I thought I had him under control, but I was very wrong. I have decided to contact the last trainer to work with. I know he is very expensive, but there is really no other choice.

I will get you guys posted.

Mary


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

gsdraven said:


> My thought in the pedigree analysis is that it helps you to know what you are dealing with. If it's deep rooted genetic aggression then it would certainly weigh in on my decision of just how managable the dog will be. It doesn't change how much work would be needed but it may change my expections on how far I can get.


That was my thought as well, and have seen people post a pedigree and get very different responses after.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are going through this.

You are not wrong to consider euthanasia. 

You are not wrong to consider management/training. 

I think both biting issues happened when people were violating your self-space, which suggests that you are being resource-guarded or protected or the dog is territorial. 

I have never had to deal with this problem. It really does not sound like rage syndrome. And I hope it isn't because there really is only one thing you can do for that in the end. 

I also am glad that you are not considering rehoming the dog.

I hope that working with this trainer and management gives the dog some more years.


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## rumhelka (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello, and I'm sorry about your problem. I've noticed from your previous posts that your dog was aggressive as a puppy, so this is not a new problem to you (and shouldn't have escalated so far). I don't know how much training and socialization your dog had (it seems that it was not enough FOR HIM). Every dog (like every person) is different and has differrent needs. General knowledge about dogs is like having a recipe for a cake; making a cake requiers more skills. Now, about your Current situation. Training a dog is a constant job for the rest of his life. So, train him every day. Be a good leader. When you walk your dog (on a short leash and possibly with a muzzle), you are there to protect him, so when somebody approaches, you put yourself between your dog and this person or another dog. When somebody will ask to pet your dog, say I'm sorry, he is not good (not ready) to be touched. You have to always remember that he is a "ticking bomb" which might explode any time, but if you really love him, you will be able to live with him. I know, I did it at one time of my life. My beautiful 3 year old female rescue was also a "ticking bomb", and we lost house insurance because of her, but we would never, never give up on her for anything in the world! We knew that she came to us with her problems which we could not solve but we've decided to live with her until her last breath. She taught us more about dogs than any dog we ever had and we loved her very much. She's died of old age in her (ours) home and we still cry when we think about her. In her memory we've adopted three more dogs, who currently live with us, and we actively are helping other GSDs being rescued. Please, think about whether you can live for another 8 years with a "ticking bomb", we did and we don't regret it. Good Luck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think this is a ticking bomb though. I think that there have definitely been triggers to the behavior. That does not mean to let your guard down, but if a dog truly aggresses out of the blue, that dog is a serious liability and I would probably lean more heavily toward euthanizing such a dog and releasing him from his demons.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hold on everyone -- I don't think the problem is that bad after all . Poster said dog is fine with her , the family, her invited friends. She seems to have some good obedience so the dog has focus (solid sits, downs, recalls) . 

The problem seems to be "the postman syndrome" only hers is a different version -- people passing her (back?) yard . 
What does the postman do ? He comes to the house. The dog alerts, the postman goes away . In an unwitting way the postman has played decoy. The dog barked and , glory be , made him go away . Oh the power . Here is this dog spying people near his territory, maybe the people are coaxing him to come for attention or maybe someone has taunted him, or maybe the young dog as a pup let out a woof and the person startled and quickened his pace -- haha ! prey / decoy work in action.

Maybe all that is needed is to go into high gear environmental changes so the dog does not need to be on guard , vigilant , for people minding their own business going by. The OP did say they had an electric fence system installed so that the dog does not make it as far as the iron fence . Why not have the passers by blocked from view. Privacy fencing with some nice shrubbery . When out either have the dog supervised or in a kenneled area closer to the house. Secure, peaceful . 

possibility?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think Selzer explained my point better. You know what gets you your dog, so you can avoid putting him in those situations. A truly dangerous, aggressive dog is one that is cuddling and being sweet one second and biting/attacking the next.


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## rumhelka (Aug 31, 2011)

I agree with Carmen. The dog is not aggressive inside, not even to visitors. Mine was and I had to crate her when anybody would come to the house. Maybe Mary is not a strong leader outside of the house and Bailey thinks that he has to protect her???
Again, Mary, take charge and protect your dog while being with him outside.


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

I misquoted in original post. Cost of trainer would be $700. not $800 for 8 weeks. Regardless I have decided to go with him, I spoke to him and we start on Sept. 12. I really think I have lost some of my confidence in working with dogs after the bitting incident. 

My HOA will not allow a wooden fence or high shrubbery.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

i don't know what an HOA is .

Then build a special yard within the yard which will prevent the dog from guard duty at the fence line .

What are your property dimensions.

there are actually some really nice ideas in the Susan Barwig book .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think Home Owner's Association.

I would try going out with the dog, and every time the dog starts doing that on the back of the property, immediately remove him from the situation. End of play time, end of fun. Go inside and do something incredibly boring, then take him out on lead for the next three or four times.


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

HOA stands for Home Owner's Association. Bailey is never outside without me or my husband present. 

It is a good idea about taking him inside the minute he charges the fence. Or the 4 feet from it because of the Invisible Fence.

Also, I did hear from my breeder. She listed direct and indirect relatives of Bailey's and there is only one that had aggression problems. I think that is a very good record.

My Abby was from her and she was a wonderful girl, my sister also had one of her pups and Lobo was great as well. I don't think his aggression from his breeding. I would not hestiate to get another pup from her next year.

Thank you all for your help.

I will keep you all posted on his progress.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

What a wonderful place to live. If around here someone stick his fingers inside my fence guarded by 2 GSD and he end up bitten, nobody will come after my dog. And that person will have to endure not only stitches at the ER, but everyone, from the doctors to the drivers would be laughing at him for his own stupidity.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Catu said:


> What a wonderful place to live. If around here someone stick his fingers inside my fence guarded by 2 GSD and he end up bitten, nobody will come after my dog. And that person will have to endure not only stitches at the ER, but everyone, from the doctors to the drivers would be laughing at him for his own stupidity.


Stupid needs to hurt... Sadly, we here in America no longer allow it to.


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

I certainly would NOT rehome this dog,but I don't know if the dog's behaviour warrents euthinasia,either.(I did not veiw the dogs behaviour,I am advising by what you have posted).

I do not find the dog ''fear aggressive'' for what you are posting.I think the dog might have assumed you needed protection and bit to remove a preceived threat.He might have been overwhelmed and overstimulated wich lead to reactivity.I do not think it is a ''beyond hope'' senerio.GSD are independant thinkers and dogs willing to protect.I would get in with a GOOD schutz trainer about how to teach the dog to control his protection drive/bite.I do NOT think the dog should be PTS,but he is a bite risk until he gets better control. He needs to be taught control of his mouth and that it is not his choice when to use it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

prophecy said:


> I certainly would NOT rehome this dog,but I don't know if the dog's behaviour warrents euthinasia,either.(I did not veiw the dogs behaviour,I am advising by what you have posted).
> 
> I do not find the dog ''fear aggressive'' for what you are posting.I think the dog might have assumed you needed protection and bit to remove a preceived threat.He might have been overwhelmed and overstimulated wich lead to reactivity.I do not think it is a ''beyond hope'' senerio.GSD are independant thinkers and dogs willing to protect.I would get in with a GOOD schutz trainer about how to teach the dog to control his protection drive/bite.I do NOT think the dog should be PTS,but he is a bite risk until he gets better control. He needs to be taught control of his mouth and that it is not his choice when to use it.


This dog is not being rehomed nor PTS, the owner is working with a trainer.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-week-training-super-trainer-behaviorist.html


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

Just a quick update to this thread. Bailey is doing much better regarding the aggression issues. There is ZERO chance of him being PTS. I understand he will never be safe with strangers so Ed and I will keep him out of harm’s way by not giving him the opportunity to bite someone. I am working with a trainer and the progress he is making amazes me. You can read more of this in my update about his training.

Thank you all for hearing me out and giving such good advice.

Mary

He will never be allowed the opturnity to bite someone


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Excellent ! Good to hear .
Meisterfeld books really illustrate some dramatic changes when management changed . I have other books specializing in agression . I'll go to my shelves and get some titles. 

great work .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

great news!!! GREAT news!!!


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i had an aggressive gsd for 9 years, she was fine with people inside the house once introduced properly, but outside was very dangerous. i managed her by not taking her out in public and if i had to take her out to the vet i advised people to not go near her. management was key,and it worked out fine . it sucked that she couldnt go out in public to pet stores etc, but she had a great life . and if your dog was truly people aggressive your dog would have also bit your family and you as well..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> But none of that really matters at this point in managing the dog. Can't go back and change his genetics. IF the dog can't be safely managed, I do agree that PTS may be the only safe option. Rehoming would certainly be grossly irresponsible and dangerous and I applaud the OP for realizing that is not an option.


Unless you'd have the right Schutzund Handler that would evaluate the dog and take over him. This is how many many legends have been born.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y/190890-fear-aggressive-bailey-part-2-a.html new thread update.


> Unless you'd have the right Schutzund Handler that would evaluate the dog and take over him. This is how many many legends have been born.


I know of a trainer that has taken more than one handler aggressive dog and worked him to trial. But he is one that kennels the dogs unless they are working....dog gets very little choice in decision making.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

All I can say is I'm sorry for the roller coaster you're on, and I understand it.


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