# some raw questions



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Okay, we've been feeding Frag whole chickens for one meal a day for the last two weeks, and we're ready to start adding more meats/organs in to start balancing everything out, but I have a few questions about stuff I don't understand. 

First of all, 10% of the balance should be bone; i've heard this is also referred to as RMB? I think this stands for Raw Meaty Bone? Okay, assuming that's correct, does that mean that say, parts of chicken with bone in it (not breast) would account wholey for bone content and not muscle meat? I've also seen people using mackeral for bone meat I think? Would this work? What about catfish nuggets? (that's what they're called in the store anyway)

Another question, or more/less a guidline that I'm wondering if I could get some help with; What parts of what animals are good for bone and what parts of what animals are good for muscle? I've got the organs down, the local store sells beef livers, and chicken gizzards and livers. They also sell beef hearts, which I understand is considered muscle meat, correct? So what meats would be good for the 80% and for the 10% bone? 

Thank you for your answers in advance. We're very excited about having Frag on this new diet, although I think we have discovered unfortunately that his skin allergy was due to grains (corn, wheat?) _and_ chicken. His skin has gotten worse since we switched, so I'm hoping changing out the meat will make this better. Would turkey have the same effect on him as chicken though, since they're so much a like? Do I have to keep chicken in his diet permenantly?

Sorry for all the questions, I know this was long.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I feed mostly chicken for the bone. Or I'll chunk a tom turkey neck into 1/3rds and 1/3 of one would be the bone for a meal.
I add in ground beef(heart/tongue grind), green tripe, pork or venison to make up the ratio of muscle meat. 
My dogs average 1# a meal-2 meals a day. So a chicken wing with the above meat, and a bit of organ meat(5% of the meal). 
With this I supplement with salmon oil(up to 2000mg) and vitamin E(400iu) daily.
EsterC and Chrondroitin and Glucosomine a few times a week. All the supplements are human grade from the grocery store.

I also feed yogurt, raw egg, canned jack mackeral and other fish. 

Your pup may be itchy due to dry air. A humidifier works wonders along with the oils/vitamin E supplements daily. The only way to rule out food as an allergy is to have blood tests run, or do an elimination diet(which takes forever to rule out as it has to get out of the system).
Onyx is sensitive to fish, and highly allergic to dust mites. She scratches, chews paws and has chronic ear infections. 
After 2yrs of her suffering, I opted to have the blood test(HESKA) done and it ruled out the foods except fish.
The threads here in the raw section are full of information.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Ah, I see. Thank you for this clarification. We'll get him some fish oil and see if that helps out. I'll also look around my house for an old humidifier.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Are you feeding any treats or other vitamins - because those things could also have something your dog is allergic to. We did an elimination diet of sorts awhile back and fed just (raw) chicken for 4 weeks until I saw an improvement in the itching. After I saw improvement, I then added new proteins one at a time every 2-3 weeks, making sure I didn't see any more itching.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

he gets cheese and hotdogs as treats, and no vitamins or supplements as of now. is it possible that he's allergic to those? All signs are pointing to the chicken right now, and he HATES eating it. It takes him a good half an hour to down a pound and a half.. we added in some beef roast last night though and he ate it in five mintutes. is this any indication?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You really should be feeding two meals a day, and just shy of 1# per meal.
The skin on the chicken has many benefits, but some dogs have a hard time with skin. Your pup may be finishing up with teething so in a bit of pain, taking more time to eat. 
Hot dogs have alot of stuff in them, if you are really concerned with allergies, I would go with string cheese.
What are Frags symptoms that you think he has allergies?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Well we're only feeding him raw for one meal right now because we're finishing off his kibble in the morning. And I took 3% (for growing dogs) of his ideal adult weight and got three pounds a day total, so I took half of that for one meal. 

Alright, is there really a benefit to string cheese over slices or anything, or is that just a preference? because we used to use cheese slices and we'll go back to those from hotdogs if okay.

Symptoms include dandruff, LOTS of itching/scratching (which has gotten worse since switching to chicken) and a dull/dry coat. I'm fairly positive it's not the shampoo we use since it's an oatmeal based shampoo, but it could be due to the weather that it's gotten worse. I'm not really sure.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

How old is your dog? Also what kibble are you feeding?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

almost 6 months. purina puppy chow.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> almost 6 months. purina puppy chow.


Also, For 3 pounds of food a day at 3%, you would be expecting him to grow to 100lbs as his projected weight. How big were his parents? Also look at their conditions, if the Dam was 90lbs but 10 pounds over weight and the sire was 110 lbs, but 20 lbs overweight. Your pups ideal weight wouldn't be 100 lbs, it would be closer to 85. My guy is 85 lbs and eats 2 lbs of food a day. 

And I know you were worried about the itching from the chicken, but most likely it is coming from the Purina Puppy chow. 

This is the first 10 ingredients in the puppy chow large breed: 
1. *Whole grain corn,* Allergen
2. chicken by-product meal, 
3. *corn gluten meal, * Allergen
4. brewers rice, 
5. *soybean meal*, Allergen
6. animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E),
7. *barley,* Allergen
8. dried beet pulp, 
9. animal digest, 
10 calcium phosphate, 

Also, the raw chicken can't be causing the scratching/itching because the Puppy chow also has chicken as a protein source.

I am also confused by your 90/10 meat to bone measurements. Do you remove the bone from the meat to feed him? How do you measure out 10 % of bone in the diet? I am not attacking you, I just have never seen that type of diet plan. 

Have you checked out Raw Dog Ranch - Welcome! ?
It is from a moderator here, Lauri. She has tons of information on there for feeding a raw diet. 

When you refer to a RMB, they mean raw MEATY bone. Thats why it composes 50% of the meal, it has meat and bone. The MM is entirely muscle meat. 

So a good meal for your puppy would be 50% chicken leg or wing, 45% Chicken breast, 5% Chicken liver. 

Something else I just thought of, he might not be eating the raw chicken very fast because of overfeeding. 

How are his poops?


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## lissa (Feb 12, 2010)

Are you supposed to feed a gsd food like that? and if so why? I have fed both of mine science diet food since we got them. They like it and it has all the vitamins they need and it they are both extremely healthy


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

lissa said:


> Are you supposed to feed a gsd food like that? and if so why? I have fed both of mine science diet food since we got them. They like it and it has all the vitamins they need and it they are both extremely healthy


A raw diet is great for dogs. This is what nature intended for them to eat. Their digestive tract isn't intended for digesting grains. Think about what dogs ate before man created kibble? Check out this site, created by a forum admin. Raw Dog Ranch - Natures Design

Also if you check out some of the sticky threads here on the raw section of the forum you will learn a lot more. 

The food you feed now may give them the necessary nutrients to survive but are they thriving? I know my guy is!:wild:

I'm not saying you haven't looked at the ingredient list on your dog food, but many people don't they just assume whats in the bag is good. (1st 10 ingredients)

*Chicken* (precooked weight, so after cooking, not as high on the list)
*Ground Whole Grain Corn* (means the food is mostly corn, not meat)
*Ground Whole Grain Sorghum* (another grain)
*Ground Whole Grain Wheat *(yet another grain) 
*Chicken By-Product Meal* (do you know what that is? [from about.com] "Chicken by-product meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice." 
*Soybean Meal* (a source of non animal protein]
*Corn Gluten Meal* (more grains)
*Animal Fat* Anything that in not "named", could be anything from roadkill to euthanized pets)
*Brewers Rice* (fragmented rice)
Chicken Liver Flavor (guess it didn't taste good enough with just the meat itself flavoring it 

Anyways, yes raw food is safe and nutritional for dogs. 

Also, I see you are new to the boards welcome!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

lissa said:


> Are you supposed to feed a gsd food like that? and if so why? I have fed both of mine science diet food since we got them. They like it and it has all the vitamins they need and it they are both extremely healthy


Here's a good website that will help you learn about how dog foods are rated and why: Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble They also have a rating system that explains why individual brands are rated as they are.

Welcome to the board! There's always lots of discussion here about foods. I know I've sure learned a whole lot!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

90/10 meat/bone measurements? we're doing 80/10/10 for meat, bone, and organs, but we're starting him out on chicken to get him used to meat like suggested on other sites. we aren't taking bones out of the meat.

I did project his weight at 100lbs because his sire was 120lbs and in perfect condition and his dam was 80 or 90, can't remember. So since slow growth is good anyway, I started at 100 and was going to add more if necessary. He isn't overfed, he is always begging for food around his dinner time. We gave him beef last night and he ate that in 5 minutes, when he usually takes 30 minutes. 

And, he was scratching before with just the puppy chow, it just got worse with the raw chicken. 

His poops are a lot more frequent, but perfect shape, consistency, everything.


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