# Food woes: Similar food to Orijen?



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Hey everyone. As much as I hate to admit it, I think I'm going to have to take Kaiser off of Orijen. He's been on the 6fish, and LOVES it. I mean absolutely, positively, LOVES it. I even use it for training! Thing is, I think it is too rich for him. Even with dropping his meal size a cup (from total 4/day to 3/day), he is still having pudding poops. And he is still itching a little (however this may be due to finally being off of the antibiotics and starting back up with the coconut oil...not sure). At any rate, I LOVE his coat on this food. It is in such amazing condition. And again, let me reiterate...he LOVES his food. lol. He wasn't food motivated before...so this is a big deal. 

So on to my question:

I'm looking for a food that is similar to the Orijen6fish. I'm willing to try a new protein, even a limited ingredient diet, but I do NOT want to sacrifice quality. I can always supplement with Grizzly Salmon Oil if the protein in the food is not fish. I am however looking for something that is grain free...OR...has a very small amount of grain (to see if maybe having a little more fiber would be beneficial to his poops). 

I was considering looking at the *Acana* lines...what are your thoughts on this? Maybe the *Lamb and Okanagan Apple*? Or the *Pacifica*?

_Do you have any other recommendations?_

-Kaiser is almost 31 weeks old (7 months, 3 weeks).
-He may be allergic to chicken...so NO chicken or chicken fat.
-He LOVES fish (apparently).
-We have tried Wellness Super5 LBP, Fromm LBP/LBA, Orijen LBP, and Orijen 6fish.


This is a picture from this morning from my cell. Its far from perfect...a little crooked, awful color cast, and you can't see his feet for the grass...but its as updated as I have.


stack update by jsnail17, on Flickr

And THIS shows just how much Kaiser loves Orijen6fish.


pitiful by jsnail17, on Flickr


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Kaiser is a very handsome boy!

The foods that come to mind immediately are Acana Pacifica, Fromm Salmon a la Veg, and Fromm Surf and Turf, sticking with the fish based foods. There is also Annamaet Aqualuk which is a salmon based formula and manufactured at Ohio Pet Foods.

You could also try sticking with the Orijen 6 Fish and adding a bit of pumpkin to the food to add fiber. Orijen is very nutrient dense, so you may also be able to cut back the amount a bit more as well (though depending on activity level, 3 cups a day may be just about right). Our pup, Jasmine, who is just under 10 months and about 65 pounds, gets about 2 & 1/2 to 2 & 2/3 cups of 6 Fish a day. I also add a couple spoonfuls of pumpkin (she loves it!), a couple spoonfuls of canned food (rotating flavors of Nature's Instinct and Evo canned food), and a squirt of Grizzly Salmon Oil to each meal.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Dakota is on the Fromm foods, and has done well...so I'm not opposed to trying them. I liked the thought of Acana too, since it is made by the same people who make Orijen. I've never heard of Annamaet Aqualuk though...I'll have to google that as I'm sure if I decide to try it I'll have to order it online.

I keep telling myself to go buy canned pumpkin and I keep forgetting every time! Its going to the top of my next grocery shopping list.

I will try cutting out another 1/2 cup of food...JUST to see how Kaiser does. He has very loose skin, so his pictures make him look a little "thicker" than he really is. He is appx 65lbs (as of a week ago, when he was 7.5 months). I asked my trainer a couple days ago how she felt about his weight and she was pleased with where he was at.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Annamaet is a small company based is Pennsylvania ( Annamaet Petfoods - A Holistic & Natural Way to Feed Your Pet ). Although they do not manufacture their own food, they outsource to only one manufacturer, Ohio Pet Foods ( Welcome to Ohio Pet Foods ), who also manufactures for Dr. Tim's Pet Foods and VeRUS, among others.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

My pup is having the same issues with Orijen LB puppy. They suggested switching to 6 fish as fish is easier to digest, or to the Acana Pacifica. I'd maybe try the Acana and see how it goes. 

I love their food too, but it does seem to be really rich.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

My male loved Orijen as well. I struggled with the threshold of trying to get a little weight on him vs solid poop. It was too rich for my female, who likes sleeping on ottoman just as much as exercise. 

With my travel schedule my wife would like them on the same food, so I switched to Acana, and have been rotating between ranchlands and grasslands. Both dogs are doing great on it, and look and feel great.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

thanks! I'm going to look at the acana lines today


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dog can't tolerate Orijen at all. I think the fact that it's 38% protein is just too much for him (and many other dogs). I'd suggest Fromm Surf & Turf. It's a great, small company, it's grain free, and it's only 30% protein. My dog's coat is in fantastic condition now. He has never been food motivated and I can use this kibble for tracking now.


Grain-Free Surf & Turf dog food - Fromm Family Foods


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

What I don't get is why they can't make a more nutrient dense food for puppies. Have you seen how much you need to feed? It's no wonder they get upset tummies.

I'm supposed to be feeding my pup 3-4 cups per day of food, she's probably about 35 lbs or so, it's crazy. I'm used to my parents Labs who have slower metabolisms and get fat on 2 cups a day.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

A friend of mine's 15 year old son eats more than he and his wife combined. I guess that's how they grow!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ha ha! Yeah, that's true.

But how much volume can a puppy really, safely consume? The Fromm's LB puppy, for example, for a dog my puppy's age & size, is supposed to get 4-5 cups of food a day! :/


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Freddy said:


> My male loved Orijen as well. I struggled with the threshold of trying to get a little weight on him vs solid poop. It was too rich for my female, who likes sleeping on ottoman just as much as exercise.
> 
> With my travel schedule my wife would like them on the same food, so I switched to Acana, and have been rotating between ranchlands and grasslands. Both dogs are doing great on it, and look and feel great.


Just what do you people mean by to rich?? I really can't figure that one out, what do you people mean when saying that. Is having what your dogs need most, meat, mean to rich?? I don't get that. Protein levels to high, which is a *huge* myth. 

The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful? 

As most people know, I feed Orijen and highly recommend it, but like all dog foods it doesn't work for all dogs. You don't need to fed as much Orijen as most dog foods and over feeding can cause bad poo. Also feeding twice a day and smaller amounts is always recommended for L.B.D's due to possible bloat issues. Whatever dog food you fed you should always try to add some fresh meat. I am lucky to have found a cheap butcher and an Asian market who both have great deals on some sort of cheaper cuts of meat. Here is a small group of some very good dog foods.

Orijen, Acana, Horizon Legacy, Go, Endurance Only., Fromm, Merrick, Precise Holistic, Wellness Core, Castor and Pollux, Natural Ultramix, G.F. Earthborn Holistic Primitive Natural, Evo, Go! Fit and Free, Nature’s Variety Instinct, Pinnacle, Peak Protein Formula, Solid Gold, Timberwolf, Canidea Pure Elements Darford Zero/G Dog Food


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

You do need to feed a certain amount to get enough calories or nutrients though. My pup gets her meals split into 3 feedings and it's still a lot of food for her at each feeding in my opinion.

And it can be too rich for some dogs - that even came in an email from an employee at Champion Pet Foods, her exact words:

"If that doesn’t work then it could be an intolerance to chicken or one of the other ingredients in the ORIJEN Puppy Large Breed or it could be that the ORIJEN is just too rich for your puppy, German Shepherds are known for their sensitive stomachs and they seem to do well on a fish diet as fish is easier to digest than other protein sources"


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Freddy said:


> A friend of mine's 15 year old son eats more than he and his wife combined. I guess that's how they grow!


LOL, I grow when I eat a lot. To bad it's just outward..


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

blackshep said:


> You do need to feed a certain amount to get enough calories or nutrients though. My pup gets her meals split into 3 feedings and it's still a lot of food for her at each feeding in my opinion.
> 
> And it can be too rich for some dogs - that even came in an email from an employee at Champion Pet Foods, her exact words:
> 
> "If that doesn’t work then it could be an intolerance to chicken or one of the other ingredients in the ORIJEN Puppy Large Breed or it could be that the ORIJEN is just too rich for your puppy, German Shepherds are known for their sensitive stomachs and they seem to do well on a fish diet as fish is easier to digest than other protein sources"



Did that come from Bonnie??


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

No it didn't.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well. I am going to dumb this down a bit, not meaning to insult, I'm just not sure if horse terminology is the same as dog terminology 

I have horses and have taken several feeding/nutrition classes.

Lets say you have two horses, roughly same size, breeding and getting the same amount of exercise. 

One is a hard keeper (does not gain weight easily), the other is an easy keeper (gets fat on air)

Following the feeding guidelines (which are only guidelines), lets say we gave them each one scoop of feed per meal. The hard keeper is doing ok with this amount and is a good weight. The easy keeper is gaining too much weight.

So we cut back the easy keepers feed. His weight is now under control, but he is now not getting enough of certain vitamins & minerals because he is not getting a full ration. So we have to top up his feed with a top dress, which is a vitamin mineral supplement that is generally much lower in calories.

The same can hold true in the opposite with the hard keeper. You may have to feed too much volume to keep weight on (like GSD's there is a safe amount you can feed at one time before risking a colic) and put them over their required amount of vitamins & minerals in order to keep his weight up. So you may need to go to a more calorie dense feed for this horse, in order to get the calories needed to keep weight on, without overdoing the vit/minerals.

Unfortunately, they don't seem to have these options available for dogs. I'd love a puppy food that was more calorie dense, so you don't have to feed as much to get the required amount of calories and nutrition.

So your choice is - feed too much volume wise and upset the dogs tummy because it's too much food for them to digest effectively.

Or cut it back and risk you dog losing weight by not getting enough calories, and possibly not feeding a full ration so there are now gaps in the vitamins/minerals it needs to ingest to stay healthy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

blackshep said:


> Unfortunately, they don't seem to have these options available for dogs. I'd love a puppy food that was more calorie dense, so you don't have to feed as much to get the required amount of calories and nutrition.


It's called RAW. 

Sorry, had to bring it up. I'm sure you have already thought about this option. The amount of raw you feed vs. the amount of poop that comes out is rather astonishing--it's like there is hardly any waste product with raw.

But I understand what you're saying about the kibble. Personally, I haven't heard many success stories with Orijen. Believe it or not, there is a really good salmon/sweet potato diet available at Costco, it's called Nature's Domain. It's worth looking into, and you can't beat the price. You could still use the Orijen kibble as training treats.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

You can still screw up RAW pretty bad, though.

Also, my mom has late stage cancer and my younger sister is immunosuppressed, so that puts the kibosh on RAW for me I'm afraid. I'm also lazy. lol


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Tony,

I know food is your fetish so I won't argue in your "area of expertise". Instead I'll share my personal experience. 

I have a 6 yr sl/wl cross female, and a 3 yr wl male that is a working dog, training in IPO. 

If you research my posts, she started on Canidae, and I switched to Kirkland's grain free after reading about it on the board. After some skin and coat problems I fed her Honest Kitchen (rehyrated raw) but after a year or so of my increased travel decided to switch her to the same formula as my male. He went from BB to Kirkland to Orijen. 

During the time they both ate Orijen I noticed a few things. First, my male's coat looked awesome, he loved the food, but there was a threshold I could not cross. The threshold was the quantity of food I could feed him in order to put some weight on him. His poop turned to pudding. He's fed twice a day. Second, my female loved the food but was pooping all the time, it was pudding, didn't really help her coat. Third, my house smelled like a fart. All the time. 

We're on our third bag of Acana Ranchlands, and I plan on rotating it with Grasslands for variety. Both dogs love it, poops are as good as my pooper scooper (wife) has ever seen, and my house now just smells like a house. 

Maybe I'm using the wrong word when I say rich, but they (she specifically) could not TOLERATE the Orijen without side effects. 

Does the expanded description of what I referred to as "rich" help?





3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Just what do you people mean by to rich?? I really can't figure that one out, what do you people mean when saying that. Is having what your dogs need most, meat, mean to rich?? I don't get that. Protein levels to high, which is a *huge* myth.
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?
> 
> ...


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Tony,

One more thing: when you add meat, are you usually adding raw beef? Just curious and I might look into it. Thanks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Once again, when you add meat to a kibble you will impact the Ca ratio (meat is high in P and hardly any calcium) as well as influencing the uptake of other nutrients. 

Do you have any reputable information to substantiate a nutritional benefit from adding meat to a high protein dog food and how much is too much?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

blackshep said:


> You can still screw up RAW pretty bad, though.
> 
> Also, my mom has late stage cancer and my younger sister is immunosuppressed, so that puts the kibosh on RAW for me I'm afraid. I'm also lazy. lol


Ah, I gotcha--I suffer from chronic laziness also, so I understand--but having immunocompromised people in the household is definitely a greater concern. I wouldn't do raw either in that case.

However, I actually find it difficult to screw up raw--all you have to do is feed raw meaty bones (or bony meat), essentially. It's not rocket science. I kind of agree with Billinghurst on that point, though I don't like his writing style.

I didn't think anyone could screw it up, until I read that someone was feeding a puppy boneless chicken breast with huge helpings of raw vegetables and fruit. :crazy: So yes, it can be screwed up--but that could have been prevented by the smallest amount of research on canine raw diets.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Actually, I think that (using advice and directions from a breeder) I fed way too much bone and not enough meat to Cyra who wound up with severe HD and was actually my ONLY dysplastic dog and my ONLY raw fed pup. 

Several littermates the same. ... *Should have* been good genetics for hips. Thing is hip ball and socket well shaped but with severe remodeling...........So I *do* think you can mess it up... 

I still think done properly, it is best, but do not think adding meat to kibble in any significant quantity is at all wise. The stomach adjusts to a different pH to adjust to the carbs in kibble which may impact ability to kill bacteria in the meat. Ground meat would be eaten too fast with not enough work perhaps same thing. If I did this I would simply feed a raw meaty bone meal at a separate time than my kibble meal and then, what the heck is the point, why not feed raw? They make mixes for RAW feeders for when you are traveling and I have even travelled with raw and it was no big deal. Hint ice chest and grocery stores.


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## Woof_Terrorist (Aug 3, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I fed way too much bone and not enough meat to Cyra who wound up with severe HD and was actually my ONLY dysplastic dog and my ONLY raw fed pup.


Please explain. I want to understand this. I thought bones and cartilage prevent HD.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Woof_Terrorist said:


> Please explain. I want to understand this. I thought bones and cartilage prevent HD.


It is DEFINITELY known that too much Calcium (studies with greater than 3%) in the diet can osteochondrosis but I have heard others argue that in its pure form in a raw diet with bones it is not an issue........so I honestly do NOT know the details there -- whether too many bones in a raw diet cause the same problems as too much calcium in a kibble diet. 

There are articles on the issues with too much calcium in the sticky on feeding your dogs.

But I know that feeding dogs meat without bones can cause severe problems as well and to me, adding meat to a diet balanced for Ca and P can only throw off the ratios and possibly mess things up. But once again, how much is ok and how much is too much?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Actually, I think that (using advice and directions from a breeder) I fed way too much bone and not enough meat to Cyra who wound up with severe HD and was actually my ONLY dysplastic dog and my ONLY raw fed pup.
> 
> Several littermates the same. ... *Should have* been good genetics for hips. Thing is hip ball and socket well shaped but with severe remodeling...........So I *do* think you can mess it up...


I honestly don't think you can blame hip dysplasia on too much bone in the diet. I believe HD is genetic. You can definitely have a litter full of normal hips and one dysplastic--or the other way round--it happens. 

I do think that the expression of HD can be influenced by environmental factors such as diet, exercise, etc. Diet can probably make dysplastic hips marginally better or worse--but I doubt that too much bone would make a puppy with genetically normal hips dysplastic. I think more problems occur when the Calcium-Phosphorus ratio is out of balance, and it is naturally balanced in animal bones. Besides that, excess calcium is excreted, which is why raw-fed poops turn chalky white at times.



> but do not think adding meat to kibble in any significant quantity is at all wise.


I agree. If I feed both raw and kibble to my dogs, I feed them at separate meals.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

True....... but too much calcium can be a problem in kibbles.........but kibbles are a processed and not a whole food and I honestly don't know if it can be an issue in a raw diet.


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