# Advise on board train or not :(



## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi all,
I'm really looking for some outside advise from people not attached by heart on this. I was able to find a what seems to be a really worth while trainer near me (John Soares) and I called him to help me with a behavior that has started to develop into somthing I don't want.

I have a male working lines GSD, 15 month who you could say is a dominate male. Great personality, very friendly with everyone but dogs. Good on leash, not a structured heal, but will stop pulling on leash of you tell him to or just lock your arm. He will walk side by side if you ask him to with out pulling. Will sit, down, stay on and off leash, even if you throw a toy till you release. Not 100 present if dog is near, so this I know I want to improve and work.

Ok, here is the problem, it's me, my wide and my 7yr old daughter who we all been with him since I took him home. We all play and work his commands and feed him, though it is mostly me. I am the true owner if you will. The dog has bonded with me over all. I spend the most time with him and work him every day.
He has on a few occasions crowded at my daughter, each time when she would come near me while he wanted to be near me, or was waiting for his food near me. He at a young puppy had high value bone aggression not food bowl, but I can now take a raw bone from him at any time. I really don't think he would let my wife or daughter do it.
So he was always happy to be with my wife, he always wanted her to rub his belly and would roll over for her, jump on her(now thinking about it, that seems to be him wanting to dominate her) but the other night he was laying down at my feet. My daughter just jumped on the couch on me and my wife came in. He wag his tail as he saw her rolled over on his back and she got down on the floor to pet him. Then he jumped up growled, no teeth, husk up and jumped at her, she turned and walked slowly in a circle and he kept going after her. No bite, no the etch, just growling kind like when he his moving the cats around? So I immediately call him off and he listens but then she walked towards me and he wanted to go back at her. I called him and he came right to me and put his head on my feet.

Now. I know this is unexceptable so I want to work with someone to find out what is going on. I have had him in group training before and he was always fine with other dogs till around 12mnts. We train or play daily at parks alone and run for a few hours.

John looked at him and said he is a good dog, would do really well in sports, but needs to learn his place more. I agree. He suggested a board and train to reset the situation. Mostly because I have my daughter here. Now, Easton was borded once when we traveled and I had him do training also at Hal Wheilers. I hated not being with my dog.
I always wanted to be the one who trained Easton. I also feel that I need to learn this aspect of training and that I didn't correct this because I didn't know how to(thus why I'm asking professionals). I don't want another person to train him or reset him because in the end, in my mind then My dog will be great with the trainer, but then I still won't be able to fix the problem when he gets home?

I can see, yes if boarding you get more time working the dog, but at then end I get a few sessions on how to work with the dog. I would rather so a few hours a day with the trainer and me so WE both learn together, my dog and me. Plus my dog will continue to see me as a worthy leader and companion. 

So my question is, am I to close to this? Am I playing with fire? Can I insist on no boarding? Am I wrong on thinking this? 

I welcome any thoughts and appreciate any feed back from those that have worked these amazing dogs for a long time. 

Thank you


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

You shouldn't have to board your dog. You said it yourself, you don't want other people training your dog.
I think you should have your wife train the dog more. It sounds like he already listens to you, it will help him respect her too. Get your daughter involved in easier stuff to train or teach her how to work the dog (a heel after you teach one) if you are comfortable with that. Some trainers do skype sessions, I know that sounds weird, but they can still talk to you and demonstrate on their dog so it's like at-home. You shouldn't have to board to 'reset'. I don't think that's how it works.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm not sure board-and-train would be a good option for this, as the integral part is teaching YOU how to handle the dog. If the trainer works out any kinks in a kennel environment, it seems likely that once the environment is reverted back to the start, with the same variables (including you, and your daughter), your dog may revert as well. I would think finding a trainer who can come into your home and observe everyone's interactions with the dogs and show you how to build on your day-to-day routine for better management would be a better bet.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ltleo said:


> . He wag his tail as he saw her rolled over on his back and she got down on the floor to pet him. Then he jumped up growled, no teeth, husk up and jumped at her, she turned and walked slowly in a circle and he kept going after her. No bite, no the etch, just growling kind like when he his moving the cats around? So I immediately call him off and he listens but then she walked towards me and he wanted to go back at her. I called him and he came right to me and put his head on my feet.


I'm curious. Your dog hasn't exhibited this behavior before, towards anyone, correct? He didn't repeat the behavior while at the trainers, correct? He hasn't reacted towards your child, correct?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I would do it, for your daughter's sake as well as your pup's. You know if anything ever happens to your daughter, then it's game over. I don't know the first thing about John Soares, but just looking at his web site tells me he's pretty accomplished, lol. The main thing is he'll be able to teach you and your wife how to handle your pup properly.

This is a difficult position to be in. Reading the testimonials page on his site, he's helped several people in your situation. The main this will be in the follow-up, to make sure that you can continue with the training foundation that he sets up for your pup. You sound like you're willing to make that commitment.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't know if the board and train is a good idea. This is a leadership issue in your home, not an obedience one. And that issue cannot be addressed outside of the home. 

If it were my home and family, the dog would be in full shut down mode, excersise increased, a trainer coming to home, and strict NILF. If my child was around, the dog would be crated or leashed and tethered to me. They would not be allowed to interact, except during training session when I had full physical control of the dog. 

I know it sounds harsh, but your wife was smart and handled it well. What would you child do? Maybe her reaction would trigger the dog to more than growling and charging. And that is life ending issue. 

Your dog is acting like he owns you. Not the other way around. He is an intact teenage GSD. They are notorious jerks, they push limits, they try new things, their hormones are raging, they are becoming adults. Many go through this stage. So you are not alone. But you must make sure your family is safe while he is being "reeducated" to his place in the family. And again, the family must be around for him to learn. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

Thank you. I do feel like I'm the only one going through this so that makes me feel better. Yes he is an intact male, and yes his hormones are going nuts as he humps everything after play, toys not people. 
I was thinking lesh in house again. He does think he owns me. I do half n.i.l.i.f, but need to go back to more. 
Looking at it, I think I relaxt to much with him, due to I didn't have to be this "hard" for lack of a better word on my last female GSD. Though she was more of a laid back. I allowed her everything but she listen with a whisper. So at first I had Easton sit at all doors, me go in first and so forth. I kinda missed the old days.
He is pushy lol.
He has only done this with my daughter maybe three times in the past and they all were when he was laying next to me and she came running on me. Though the daughter and wife insident were back to back days this week.
How does having my wife work him in training, in private sessions? While holding the lesh. 
Any one know of any other people to use in norther NJ, Essex area, I'm really hoping not to drive an hour away

Sometimes, I feel like I know what to do, but like some of you said, I don't want to take a chance on this because it not fair for him or my family. The funny thing is he is great with them every other time, as he goes to them to play, he sits or downs when they ask him to. He just really wants to be ahead of them. What is the correct way to let him know he is behind them with out having to have the dog in the create or on leash all the time after. I do want him to have free run.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the others, if you can get someone to come into your home / help you train/advise etc I think that would be a better way to go.

Sounds like he is possessive/guardy of you. I think having your wife do some training with him sounds like a good idea to. 

Something I would do, and don't take this as gospel, because it may not work for you. I had a pretty guardy male aussie, for example, me on the couch, he comes over for attention, any of the other dogs come within the space, he's growling/turning into a standing cujo, I don't like that behavior ..I would tell him to knock it off and he had his "mat" on the other side of the room, send him to his "mat". Can't share, can't get attention.. Did it 'cure' his behavior? Not really, he was an odd dog anyway, BUT, he did 'get it', when I stopped the attention and he was told to "go to your mat" Surely not a correction I was giving, but I wasn't going to allow the guardy/possessive behavior.

With that rambling, I'll repeat, finding someone that can come into your home is most likely your best bet


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A good board and train will have handler sessions where the trainer will explain to you how to maintain the behavior or avoid future issues. 

What i dont understand is most of you have no issue giving someone advice to seek professional help when a dog is being aggressive with other family members as soon as you hear kids are involved but the second someone mentions board and train everyone is against it.

Our board and train grads here when finished are incredibly well trained dogs and we dont just send those dogs home after all that effort without giving our clients all the tools theyll need to maintain and continue the behaviors and support continued for the life of the dog for when new or old issues arise.

Are you going to get that from the forum? **** no.

Your dog isnt going to respect you any more or any less regardless of who taught him a behavior. A pro teaching your dog to heel isnt going to errode your bond with the dog. If you need help go get it and dont listen to anybody here that says otherwise.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

There are many good board/kennel for young puppy socialization, and it is better than any puppy park, because puppies are watched there and professionally controlled. But, never ever let any trainer to train your dog in your absence, unless you have a private trainer, with whom you had sessions together already, you knows what methods he/she uses, and your dog must be taken from and back his home. Separation from the owner causes a terrible stress in the dog older than 5 months, if he wasn't trained to remain in kennels. Causing such a stress is a way to make dog confused and disoriented in unknown territory, the methods used could be cruel and noway you would find about them or why your dog has suddenly become so pleasant and obedient. In the end this "board training" doesn't work. Only your dog overcomes the stress - he would be back on old wheels, behaving as before. Normally the owners call back the board to ask why that is so, and get the answer, that he might need more "corrections". More money out of your pocket. Don't do this. Serious kennels do not need to expand their business this way, they rather expand their territory, put more kennels, employ daycarers for young puppies, not cheap trainers for dogs of any breed. Any professional here in this Forum would tell you, that they train or GSD only, or the breeds they know well. There are highly trainable cross-breeds, but they are exceptional. Personally, I wouldn't train, say, a husky, because I never had them and this breed is very specific. There, in these boards, they train all dogs. 
A list of recommended trainers you can find with obedience classes, your local Schutzhund club, serious trainers have their own sites. You should be in constant contact with your trainer, not sitting and wondering in anxiety.It could be better if trainer works using his own dog to demonstrate you the ways things work, not only point at your mistakes. In addition, your young dog would watch his older trained dog and copy his behaviour, dogs learn much faster from each other. I often use my dog in outdoor training, such things like common strong reactivity to other dogs or excessive protectiveness dissapear without much effort as well as more complex search training gets better.
And, by reading your post, I would like to suggest you reading this:The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs by Patricia B. McConnell ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

Yes, this trainer also is going to walk us through, more my wife, as he sees I can handle my dog. He suggested it's more with the females, and since he can't give my daughter lessons he really wants to work with my wife. He also will work with the dog on the behaviors for the life if any problems.
The thing that gets me, is this is not an every day thing that he does. It's been soo spread out and each time it was strange.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

If a dog was agressive with family member - it means there is something wrong with family member, not with the dog. It is natural for male GSD to struggle for dominance, and persuading him to remain a little puppy is not that difficult for his owner, if he/she reads something and learns simple principles.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You guys should look up who John Soares is btw. As far as help goes you cant do much better than that.

Anyway this thread has been good for a chuckle

http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com

Here i made it easy


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif - considering the horror stories of some board and train facilities...what should a person look for to find a reputable one?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> A good board and train will have handler sessions where the trainer will explain to you how to maintain the behavior or avoid future issues.
> 
> What i dont understand is most of you have no issue giving someone advice to seek professional help when a dog is being aggressive with other family members as soon as you hear kids are involved but the second someone mentions board and train everyone is against it.
> 
> ...



There are some things that board-and-train is definitely helpful for. I don't deny that, at all. 

But, I don't think something that is a heavy environmental and handler trigger is one of them. How a dog acts isolated at a kennel under the constant guidance of a trainer is apples and oranges with how a dog acts in his home environment with all family members and daily routine involved. This isn't a matter of obedience training, it's lifestyle training. I don't believe that can be translated in one, two, or a handful of off-site handler-trainer lessons. I have experience with board-and-trains, and have seen a lot of success with them. This is one area where I have NEVER seen success.


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

I have the utmost confidence in John and respect his option, he gave me the option either way.. I'm just stuck with, yes do I know he can help 100 percent. Would it be easier for me for john to do the work, yes, but I have the time, and want to be the one who learns and works this out with the dog, with John, not on the back end... Is this me thinking to much with my heart over my head?? This is where I'm stuck


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

LoveEccho-- this is where I'm stuck at also.. I'm not sure if I can get my dog to show the behavior. It was so out of the blue.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Well in this case it's easy when it's run by a trainer with a resume like this it's legit about john

He's a complete badass of a dog trainer and world class.

Other than that look at the facilities. Will they even let you see the dogs in training? Are the facilities clean? Are the dogs coming out of training happy looking while performing behaviors or do they look suppressed or scared? Do they offer continued support and trouble shooting for behavioral issues? How many handler sessions do they offer? Are the trainers balanced and knowledgeable about all forms of training or are they some cookie cutter trainers from some hack 2 week franchise training program?

Don't be fooled by a single demo dog as a lot of trainers will buy one that was trained somewhere else and pass it off as their own because they can't actually create it themselves (we've sold them.) If they can't show off an advanced trainee or several demo dogs don't let that one sucker you in.


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

Ltleo said:


> I'm not sure if I can get my dog to show the behavior. It was so out of the blue.


Not really out of the blue. You were close to the dog while someone approached quickly. This you can repeat. 

My Miniature Pinscher does this and I manage it similar to Jacoda's situation. But for me it was just another dog wanting attention, not a child. 

I hope your trainer helps. Good luck!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ltleo said:


> LoveEccho-- this is where I'm stuck at also.. I'm not sure if I can get my dog to show the behavior. It was so out of the blue.


Don't need to show it to fix it. We have a dog in right now for food and toy guarding behavior. We have not reproduced the behavior nor do we need to to stop it.


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

Bailif, so I'm over thinking this then aren't i? Maybe this will be better because we will be able to fix his dog aggression also towards the end then with me and some of his dogs that have high tolerance. Yes John came to me very highly recommended! plus after meeting and talking with him! he backed it up. I liked how when he met my dog, he didn't even look at him just had me walk Easton to him and inside around him as he spoke to me. He got to see his Easton's dog aggression when my dog saw himself in the wall size mirror lol it was funny! Easton let out these deep barks and charged it, well not funny, but funny. He told me he can tell right away that Easton has everything to be a very good sports dog and that you can see the confidence and power of wanting to protect from his temperament and stance as well as the fullness of his barks. He is very powerful, and it didn't surprise him that Easton was over powering the females in the house due to his make up and not understanding complete leash work and rules or structure. I agree and I'm glad that this is something that can be corrected with adjustments. Though he said Easron will never be the type of dog that will want to be with other dogs in a dog park, I don't believe in them anyway.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You'll be in good hands with him and will have the opportunity to learn from one of the best. Just take notes ask a lot of questions and make sure your wife is on board with the changes that will happen after.


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

My wife as much as she loves him, has never been a big dog kind of person lol, she has always been a cat person. In fact that's how we met at petco, lol durring a picture fund raiser for shelters and I had my past shephered with me. I can tell she is intimidated by Easton cause she says he is so big and ruff. He is just hard boned and doesn't know his own strength lol, cause he really is a big goof ball and comical for belly rubs. My daughter is timet of him also, thus I think he picks up on it.
I plan on taking tons of notes lol. We also talked about training Easton in some type of sport work to give both of us a working goal together. Plus I'm leaning in having John train me as a trainer, through his program. Have you herd of him before I listed him? It's funny, I could never find anything about him before I was given his contact info. As I was looking for a while for a good trainer that could mentor and teach us near me. The only thing I kept coming across was rejose I think his name was? Very good also, just over booked and to far for me to drive. How long have you trained and where are you located if you don't mind me asking.. Actually kraftwerk put me in touch with John, as they were helping me via phone calls and emails. They suggested that I try him instead of putting Easton through the stress of a flight to them. I was impressed as they didn't try to make money by having me fly there and train. I believe they know each other via competing in Europe.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He is a world class trainer and IPO competitor and while I'm more of a ringsport guy yeah I knew who he was which was why I chuckled a little. If he says he can help he isn't lying. People throw money at a trainer like that all day everyday.

And taggart you're wrong. Dogs handle separation from owner just fine they are very adaptable. Any dog trainer worth a **** knows enough learning theory and practical application of that theory to train across any breed of dog. Maltese, beagle, gsd, mastiff it doesn't matter. They all learn the same way even if the methods used need to change or be adapted.


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

As something to work on while looking for a trainer, ask your wife to give this technique a try. It will help teach your dog to yield to your wife, rather than trying to dominate her.


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## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I have trained with John, excellant read of dogs and their handlers. clear concise communicator.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't know how experienced you are, OP. So don't take this as an insult in any way, because I sure don't mean anything other that help 

What I'm thinking is that while you board your pup (I really hope you do) you read lots of books that John recommends to you, books that support his theory and training philosophy. The reason is, your pup will be coming home with another attitude - and it's only fair to him that you receive him with a new attitude too.

What gives me the idea that you (as well as your wife) need to change is that every single thing you do is communicating with your dog. So when you said you called your dog back to you and he put his head on your feet - to me that's wrong. To me that doesn't say "wow dog, did you ever just mess up!" and this is what you need to learn. Also, you said he growls at the cats. You shouldn't be letting him get away with this either.

Good luck with the board and train! Please come back and update all of us with your success story. It's nice to hear the good side of things once in a while.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> Other than that look at the facilities. Will they even let you see the dogs in training? Are the facilities clean? Are the dogs coming out of training happy looking while performing behaviors or do they look suppressed or scared? Do they offer continued support and trouble shooting for behavioral issues? How many handler sessions do they offer? Are the trainers balanced and knowledgeable about all forms of training or are they some cookie cutter trainers from some hack 2 week franchise training program?
> 
> Don't be fooled by a single demo dog as a lot of trainers will buy one that was trained somewhere else and pass it off as their own because they can't actually create it themselves (we've sold them.) If they can't show off an advanced trainee or several demo dogs don't let that one sucker you in.


Thank You! I think many people get stuck on the horror stories and most people, newbies like myself, would not know what to look for. this is very helpful.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Well, in other thread I have met a whole pack of strays... Any time, when the matter concernes money making (board training in this case, and PP training there) I meet some "noble Cerberus" guarding not his principes, but some business.
A sports dog is brought up as a sports dog from the very first day you get him, Schutzhund obedience strarts at 3 months of age. Probably, world class trainer just assumed what the dog could have been in different hands(?) I have no right to judge, because I have never met him.
I don't have any demo dog. My dog is my tool in training owners and their young dogs, they simply start copying Lucy at one moment. But that, of course, doesn't concern the issue of a dominant dog in the family.
What drives a young male to behave agressively to the members of the family - is his fear, fear to lose his position next to the *owner, whose behaviour he copies*. Remove the competition, and this fear will dissapear. OP, he is competing for your love, because you are a king for him. Every time you kiss your wife or your daughter it draws a jealous look out of your dog, that's why he wants to abuse them. Nobody can train him, only you. If you could change your attitude towards not only your dog, but your wife and especially your daughter, not treating them as someone who always has to be told, but someone equal to you. Stop behaving like a head of the family in your dog presence, play submissive to your daughter, try for a week, and see what will happen. It will confuse your dog tremendously.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm not safeguarding a business. It will take far more than a wall of paragraphless text to bring down board and trains. The person the OP went to get help from is an IPO champion who knows exactly what he is doing, and doesn't harbor any weird notions that would stand in the way of getting his job done.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Well, in other thread I have met a whole pack of strays... Any time, when the matter concernes money making (board training in this case, and PP training there) I meet some "noble Cerberus" guarding not his principes, but some business.
> A sports dog is brought up as a sports dog from the very first day you get him, Schutzhund obedience strarts at 3 months of age. Probably, world class trainer just assumed what the dog could have been in different hands(?) I have no right to judge, because I have never met him.
> I don't have any demo dog. My dog is my tool in training owners and their young dogs, they simply start copying Lucy at one moment. But that, of course, doesn't concern the issue of a dominant dog in the family.
> What drives a young male to behave agressively to the members of the family - is his fear, fear to lose his position next to the *owner, whose behaviour he copies*. Remove the competition, and this fear will dissapear. OP, he is competing for your love, because you are a king for him. Every time you kiss your wife or your daughter it draws a jealous look out of your dog, that's why he wants to abuse them. Nobody can train him, only you. If you could change your attitude towards not only your dog, but your wife and especially your daughter, not treating them as someone who always has to be told, but someone equal to you. Stop behaving like a head of the family in your dog presence, play submissive to your daughter, try for a week, and see what will happen. It will confuse your dog tremendously.


Many dogs are started in competition obedience much earlier or later than 3 months. Some don't start formal training until 2 years. Many working dogs don't learn their job until 18 months or later. Some puppies are started on luring at 5-6 weeks old. 

Many HOTs and working breeders bring all dogs up the same, sport, LE, pet, SAR... The foundation for a good dog is the same. Some trainers imprint certain behaviors or work on prey drive early, but it's not like there is some set schedule for training. A good dog can do the work.

What drives a young dog to be aggressive can be a multitude of things. It's not always rank driven. It's not always fear. It's not always any particular motivation, which is why there is more than 1 training method for dogs. Suggesting the owner act submissive is poor advice that could lead to dangerous behavior from the dog.

Most military and LE dogs are trained in the same manner as board and train. A group of people train the dog and then a handler takes possession of the trained dog, applying principles, communication techniques and methods of control taught to the dog by others. To state that this is impossible is incorrect. It happens every day, successfully. I have trained over 200 dogs and passed them off to handlers that have successfully worked those dogs at a high level of proficiency.

I think the worst thing the OP can do is stop behaving like a leader and start demonstrating submissive behavior around the dog. You are right that the dog will be confused. How is this supposed to remedy a situation where the dog needs clear and concise leadership?

David Winners


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Ltleo, what did you decide? I am looking into the same thing and trainer for a slightly different problem.


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