# Sitting on the fence



## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

I give my dogs raw meaty beef, ham, and lamb bones - also Orijen kibble and cooked foods. My concern about going all raw is 1) potential digestive/perforation problems, as the digestive system of domesticated dogs, like all species has evolved from what it was 100,000 yrs. ago through natural selection and 2) the potential for salivary or fecal transfer of salmonella, E. coli, etc. from dog to human.

Is it possible to achieve a nice balance with both raw bones AND cooked foods and a small amt. of kibble? Thanks!


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

1.) Great news: No, it hasn't. Really! Kibble has only been around for about 60 years. This is super-- your dog is MADE to handle bones! In 60 years, nobody's evolved into anything too astoundingly different.. do not worry! 
Plus, remember, we mostly start feeding raw with EASY bones-- not recreational bones-- such a chicken wings or legs. These turn to mush in a dog's tummy quickly, because the chickens are killed VERY young-- maybe 10 weeks old. Yes, BABY birds. The bones are SOFT and dissolve fast in the tummy of a hungry dog. The bones and marrow gives many minerals and vitamins, plus help make the poop firm.

2.) If you only knew... Dogs eat poop, vomit, earthworms, garbage, afterbirth from squirrels, long-dead sparrows, and more-- even your very own squeaky-clean dogs who are always on the lead or in your own nice, tidy yard! Yup. The natural urge to eat the disgusting is HUGE for dogs. Even if you are POSITIVE that your dogs have NEVER done such horrific things. I promise you, that they have, because:
#1. Their mouths have enrzymes that clobber bacteria, and
#2. They NEED some of the nutrients found in such horrific things. (this is why they go so nuts trying to eat them in the first place. Dr Ian Billinghurst's "Give Your Dog a Bone" explains this horrific, disgusting yuck-eating practice as being neccessary to provide B vitamins, enzymes, good bugs, etc) Raw feeders add brewer's yeast, tripe, and yogurt to our dog's diets to simulate eating such yucky things, as our dogs don't always have the, uh, repulsive opportunity.









If you do want a warning about switching to all raw, here it is: Ya gotta be patient. Yup. When I started Grimm on raw, the change alone made runny poops for about 3 - 5 days. The all poops were perfect. Second warning: Ya gotta understand that your dog is an individual, and like mine, may need less bone than other dogs. Too much bones DO lead to constipation. This is not an emergency. Just feed a bone-free meal until you tweak it until the amount of bone is right. Scary? Not at all-- just start with the standard bone formula Lauri reccomends on http://www.rawdogranch.com

Add more bone after the first few days if the poops stay soft. Add LESS bone if they get too hard. Easy!


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Patti, your descriptions always crack me up - Grimmi must be as into nasty things as Otto.

My hesitation with feeding raw is my vet says salmonella is very transferable to my kids. I got enough bathroom problems with the 4 year old twins, don't need any more. Miss Jackie is the child most likely to tongue kiss the puppy, she's also the child with the best imune system - probably from licking the shopping carts at walmart (yeah yech she has, quite a few times)


----------



## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf1.) Great news: No, it hasn't. Really! Kibble has only been around for about 60 years. This is super-- your dog is MADE to handle bones! In 60 years, nobody's evolved into anything too astoundingly different.. do not worry!
> Plus, remember, we mostly start feeding raw with EASY bones-- not recreational bones-- such a chicken wings or legs. These turn to mush in a dog's tummy quickly, because the chickens are killed VERY young-- maybe 10 weeks old. Yes, BABY birds. The bones are SOFT and dissolve fast in the tummy of a hungry dog. The bones and marrow gives many minerals and vitamins, plus help make the poop firm.
> 
> 2.) If you only knew... Dogs eat poop, vomit, earthworms, garbage, afterbirth from squirrels, long-dead sparrows, and more-- even your very own squeaky-clean dogs who are always on the lead or in your own nice, tidy yard! Yup. The natural urge to eat the disgusting is HUGE for dogs. Even if you are POSITIVE that your dogs have NEVER done such horrific things. I promise you, that they have, because:
> ...


Boy! What a great advocate for RAW you are!


----------



## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinasystem - probably from licking the shopping carts at walmart (yeah yech she has, quite a few times)


Oh my! I'm so grossed out at the moment!


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaPatti, your descriptions always crack me up - Grimmi must be as into nasty things as Otto.
> 
> My hesitation with feeding raw is my vet says salmonella is very transferable to my kids. I got enough bathroom problems with the 4 year old twins, don't need any more. Miss Jackie is the child most likely to tongue kiss the puppy, she's also the child with the best imune system - probably from licking the shopping carts at walmart (yeah yech she has, quite a few times)


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1015453&page=5#Post1015453

Just as some info on kids and raw. Short thread, but has some tips for those considering raw and are worried about salmonella.


----------



## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, thank you! One more question - I had read that in the wolf, eating the hide and fur of a kill actually helps protect its digestive tract from bones by actually wrapping the pieces of hide and/or fur around the bone as it passes through. Dogs, I assume, do not have this type of natural protection. What keeps them safe? As you can tell, this is very scary to me - particularly when thinking about chicken bones.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Please remember - it is COOKED bones that splinter. Raw bones are softer.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RavensMomOK, thank you! One more question - I had read that in the wolf, eating the hide and fur of a kill actually helps protect its digestive tract from bones by actually wrapping the pieces of hide and/or fur around the bone as it passes through. Dogs, I assume, do not have this type of natural protection. What keeps them safe? As you can tell, this is very scary to me - particularly when thinking about chicken bones.


I've been feeding my dogs a raw diet for close to a decade and in that time I've fed them over ten THOUSAND pounds of raw meat with bone - alot of that being chicken (necks, backs, wings, leg quarters) and turkey (necks). My dogs only get fur or hide if they catch and kill something on their own. So I'd say 98% of their diet is fur/hide free.

Statistically speaking, if it were really that dangerous then I would have had at LEAST one problem.

I have never once had a problem with my dogs intestines being damaged by bones.


----------



## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

OK - I guess I just needed the reassurance. My dogs have been gnawing on raw meaty beef, bison & lamb bones for awhile now, but chicken seemed so risky. Like everyone else, I would never forgive myself if something happened to one of them as a result of something I did. Thanks again!


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Even kibble has bacteria on it. Plus, with raw, you are feeding fresh, inspected, human-grade foods intended for human consumption. A good thing!







(even though they would just as well prefer the raccoon droppings and other yucky stuff from the backyard, park, etc. probably... no accounting for taste!)


----------



## Toffifay (Feb 10, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RavensMomOK - I guess I just needed the reassurance. My dogs have been gnawing on raw meaty beef, bison & lamb bones for awhile now, but chicken seemed so risky. Like everyone else, I would never forgive myself if something happened to one of them as a result of something I did. Thanks again!


Funny how different our perceptions can be...I think raw chicken with the bone is LESS risky than a hard bison or lamb bone. I started feeding my dogs raw and chicken wings, legs and thighs were the first thing on the menu!


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I agree.. raw chicken bones are actually safer in my opinion. They are actually relatively "soft" bones. Pretty safe! Most of us begin our dogs on that for raw. Chicken bones are the only type of bone I give to Grimm, because I am a nervous nellie.


----------



## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

That is interesting - it is funny how what you have read or heard influences your beliefs/fears. I should say that I've only been using Nature's Variety frozen raw beef, bison, lamb bones - I hope these are OK. My female GSD is not nearly as interested in them as my male hybrid - maybe its his wolf content? Raven (GSD) is much more interested in carrying them around in her mouth and hiding them. Diablo (hybrid) devours the bones.


----------

