# Your thoughts on this breeder?



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Hello. I have been searching for a WGSL breeder that has their pups priced under $1000 and doesn't seem sketchy for quite some time now. Every breeder that i felt confident with had their pups priced at $2000+. Every breeder that was below $1000 just didnt seem so reliable. 

I believe i have found a breeder who has good pups from good parents in my price range and i just want thoughts from more experienced owners/breeders. 

If you guys could take a look at their website and check out the Sire and Dam as well as their pedigree and let me know what you think it will really help me out. The pups are ready for homes on Nov. 6th and im thinking of placing a deposit. Thank you!

Oh, i almost forgot. This breeder does not live in my state. I live in California and they live in Michigan. Any tips on shipping airlines/ground shipping or the process of shipping would be highly appreciated as i am very new to this.

http://trierweiler-german-shepherds.tripod.com/


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Red flags everywhere. 

"He explained that some are bred for police, patrol work and that these dogs usually are higher energy and more aggressive"
It's not true. They are not bred to be aggressive, they're bred with higher drives. 

Oversized dogs, calling them 'old style.' Sorry, but oversized is NOT 'old style.' 

I also can't seem to find any health clearances from OFA, and it also states that in Germany, the standard is for dogs to be titled. Doesn't say any of their dogs are. 

Also, they have pups available from a 1.5 year old bitch. They shouldn't be bred until 2 years old minimum. (They can't get their health clearances before then. Not to mention, she's still a pup herself).

I would run from this breeder. Looks like a BYB that knows how to talk the talk.

ETA: Thought this was rather interesting. 
"Beware of those that say they have huge lines but will not give you the true height and weight."
I say beware of 'breeders' who say they have huge lines, period. They're supposed to be medium sized dogs, not giants.

(Sorry for editing this so much, I just keep finding more and more). 

Nowhere in their health guarantee do they say anything about hip/elbow displaysia. Just 'life threatening illness' within seven days of purchase. Most all breeders I've seen have something about HD/ED in the contracts. Their dogs are also OFA'd, though. 

I'd definitely avoid.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

They seem to have West German Show lines. It looks like they buy into that philosophy. Health clearances in Germany on hip and elbows can be acquired at 12 months.... Size appears 1/2 inch too large on parents....dogs win in the show ring with this size routinely....missed the giant part in the website. German females can be bred at 20 months if they have titles and health clearances, if I'm not mistaken. 
There's not enough there for me to buy a puppy without seeing the parents or knowing the breeders personally, so they could or couldnot have what I want ....just not enough information for me. Trying to look at this objectively and fairly.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree with Kokotashi 100%. I am fairly new to all of this and do not have a GSD yet. But that being said, I also have a fondness for the WGSL and have a breeder picked out for when I am ready for a pup and she has one that fits my lifestyle. So I do know what a responsible breeder should be doing.
I don't like that their are not any OFA results. Now, IMO, I actually like the stud dog. I am going to be honest, I am not sure what the dimensions/weight is to be within the standard, but I do like his looks and it actually looks like he has a pretty good pedigree (An assumption on my part, I can't pick apart pedigree's like others on the board )

But here is my thought...you get what you pay for. Now that being said I completely disagree with the extreme tier pricing that many WGSL's have where you pay $2,000 for the "low end model" and $8,000 for the "top prospect". I know you only want to pay $1,000...but I would happily spend another $1,000 to know that I have a great breeder to back their pup up. I am not saying that by paying and extra $1,000 you are going to get a perfect pup...it doesn't work like that...but the chances of having a sound dog without any health issues are much greater. And in the circumstance something does go wrong you know they will stand behind you and make it right. That is my 2 cents.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Breeder getting breeding stock as pups from well known sires...slightly oversized and Germany is getting strict on oversize, trying to bring breeding dogs back into standard...overheight dogs moved to back of ring I have seen noted alot...

So parents have no certifications or credentials and the main quality they seem to emphasize is BIG....new twist on same old, same old BYB/commercial kennel "old fashioned" dogs....

As said above, you get what you pay for....add in shipping and vet and crate - $1700+/-.....lots of people in CA breeding - spend the money there and get a pup from someone like Witmer Tyson or Mary ??? (NOT WH) in Oregon where you have a good reputable breeder and resource for help....

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Agree. You have some great breeders in CA.

What part of the state are you from?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

wolfstraum said:


> Breeder getting breeding stock as pups from well known sires...slightly oversized and Germany is getting strict on oversize, trying to bring breeding dogs back into standard...overheight dogs moved to back of ring I have seen noted alot...
> 
> So parents have no certifications or credentials and the main quality they seem to emphasize is BIG....new twist on same old, same old BYB/commercial kennel "old fashioned" dogs....
> 
> ...


Lee, do you mean Mary Dygert at Temar?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Yes - not sure of prices - but if he is in driving distance, that would be preferable to this MI one once you take all the extras into account!

Lee


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I wouldn't classify this breeder as "good" based on what information is available on the website. Based on their little stated opinions throughout the site regarding size, temperament, etc, they aren't very knowledgable about the true history and standard of the breed. The contract alone would make me run far away. Nothing they seem to cover in the contract can be set in stone, the way they underline "life threatening" constantly means they won't stand behind their breeding if it comes down to quality of life and debilitating inherited problems. It basically means the vet has to state in writing that whatever issue arrives will cause death and most vets will NOT state such things for their own protection. 
For the amount you are looking to spend I think it will be a long, probably fruitless search. The $1000 you "save" on the front end will most likely be spent dealing with temperament or health issues if you find a pup at that price, since it will probably be a BYB with a convincing website. Personally, I'd spend some time saving up a bit more money and buying the best you can afford and hopefully from a breeder who is close enough for you to visit beforehand. Of course another option is always rescue.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I live in CA, you might want to look locally so you can actually go see and pick out your pup. I've met people who have bought their shepherds from the Fresno area and were very satisfied. I bought mine from a breeder in Bonny Doon, Eric Falconer, his pups run about $1200/female $1500/male. There is also a retired police officer, Lance Stackhouse of the K9 Clinic in Corralitos who breeds GSD's. When we were looking there seemed to be a few very good looking dogs from breeders from Sacramento to LA. The LA area seems to have a large choice of rescue dogs if you are interested or live down there.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I can send you info on a WGSL litter that is in your "price range". They are due to be born next week.
I know the dogs that were bred, and I know the people with the up-coming litter.
Nice dogs, nice people.....but sorry, there is no website to view. 
Please PM me if you have an interest......they are located in Illinois.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

If you are in Bay Area or near there:

Randy Tyson
Karen Wolff


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Lundborg Land in Riverside has very nice WGSL dogs, I know a BYB who has predominantly WGSL who charges about 1000.00. at least you wouldn't have to pay for shipping, but if you really want a top-quality puppy you need to support a reputable breeder, that 1000.00 could escalate very quickly in more ways than one. essentially you get what you pay for, I too live in California and had a puppy shipped to me from Michigan, but I supported a very reputable kennel and couldn't possibly be any happier.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for all the replies. I have read through them all, very helpful. Firstly i should clarify some things. I do not plan on going to any shows or competitions. I just want a healthy puppy with a sound temperament to be a loyal companion. My main concern is, as some of you stated, spending more money at the vets office than i paid for the pup itself due to upcoming health issues such as hip dysplasia and others. Wouldnt we be able to assume if any of these problems would occur by looking at the pedigrees of the Sire and Dam? I personally thought the Sire had a pretty good pedigree. Although i doubt my own judgment which is why i came to you guys. But the Sires pedigree all had HD A Normal or fast normal (whats the difference?) with the exception of his mom which had (HD- ) left blank? Why is it left blank? And the pedigree also had all SCHH titled dogs and all V or VA ratings. His dad had OFA Excellent. As for the Dam of the litter she also had most HD A Normal and all SCHH titled but in her case there are more (HD- ) left blank, including herself, and mostly V or VA ratings, but less than the Sire. But you guys are right, there isnt any OFAs except for the Sires Sire. Is that a huge concern? Does it mean there is a more likely chance of HD?

I live in Los Angeles, California and i really want a puppy.



Smithie86 said:


> If you are in Bay Area or near there:
> 
> Randy Tyson
> Karen Wolff


I just checked out Randy Tyson, they seem to have Working Lines if I'm not mistaken.

Ive spoke to Karen Wolff and she is one of my options but I'm still trying to find something near $1000. Ive got a trip to San Francisco next month on some work and I'm going to be stopping by her place. Although her earliest pups are due Oct. 30 so i may be too late for that litter but at least ill get to meet some of the parents.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The a-stamp of "normal or fast normal, ... etc.." is completely acceptable. It is the German Grading System for hips & elbows.....no need for OFA too.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Usually, when a dog has HD- left blank, it means there is no hip dysplasia certification, but not always. Sometimes it means they haven't bothered to put the hip certification into the database. 


Also, remember there is a WHOLE lot more to health than hips.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Something i should state that i forgot to mention earlier. The breeder i asked to hear your opinions on doesn't normally breed German Shepherds. She is a breeder of Biewer Yorkshire Terriers. She only breeds German Shepherds maybe once a year. If her Dam didnt meet the expectations of a quality Dam then wouldnt the owner of the Sire refuse to have her? Since the Sire seems to be quite a quality WGSL GSD.


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

Im in CA and havent found a good breader yet that doesnt shoot flag up looking at what they say or pedagree. any one know of one i havent located


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If you want a well bred sound WGSL GSD, you are going to have to bump that prince range just a bit.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Randy also has showlines. Talk to her and Karen.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aralez said:


> Hello. I have been searching for a WGSL breeder that has their pups priced under $1000 and doesn't seem sketchy for quite some time now. Every breeder that i felt confident with had their pups priced at $2000+. Every breeder that was below $1000 just didnt seem so reliable.


You're right... it will be a challenge to find a reputable breeder within that price range, so you may want to take the time to save a little more money.

For whatever reason, working lines seem to command lower prices than show lines. Have you considered working lines at all?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No an owner of a sire would not necessarily turn down An unworthy dam!! 

A breeder I know of using well known WGSLs ( whose name is very recognizable) will send semen to anyone with the money.

I found 1/2 WGSL pups from well rated WGSL sire to a pet, for sale in our Wal-Mart parking lot!


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

That site sent off a ton of red flags especially the underage untitled female and the warranty or lack there of. One thing for those more knowledgeable in pedigrees I have a question. For the sire it does not say that those are the parents. Her website links a pedigree for a female and a pedigree for a male and claims its the parents but if he was some great stud shouldn't he be on there and have his parents under him? how can you know those are really the parents? Yeah the parents pedigree looks great with the titles and everything but from my very untrained eye I see no way of knowing those are realy the sire's parents to show hes worth anything.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I prefer a bitch to be 2, but 18 months old is not the end of the world, and yes they can have certifications by then, just not OFA certs. They can get a pen-hip or an a-stamp at 1 year. They could be breeding off of pre-lims which would not be a total turn off either. There is a lot more to health than hip and elbow ratings. 

If Robin is willing to sell you a pup in your range, I would be all over that. 

I understand that you don't want to show or trial, but pet owners need dogs with good temperament and want dogs with good health. They may be more or less concerned with the actual conformation, but the people producing dogs who are conscientious about health and temperament are often producing dogs for sport, show, etc. And just because you only want a pet, does not mean that the dog that is capable of being trained for a variety of things is worth less. 

I hope you find a great puppy.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

selzer said:


> If Robin is willing to sell you a pup in your range, I would be all over that.


This... OP, I would take RobinHuerta up on the offer if I were you. Opportunity only knocks once


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I could be mistaken, but I thought Robin was going to refer the OP to reputable breeders, not actually sell her(?) a pup. Regardless, Robin has the combination of integrity & savvy that's absolutely golden in a breeder. Any recommendation she makes is well worth considering.



> No an owner of a sire would not necessarily turn down An unworthy dam!!
> 
> A breeder I know of using well known WGSLs ( whose name is very recognizable) will send semen to anyone with the money.
> 
> I found 1/2 WGSL pups from well rated WGSL sire to a pet, for sale in our Wal-Mart parking lot!


That is soooo disgusting! Why is it that so often the owners of males don't care which bitches/kennels are linked to their males? Don't the pups produced reflect on the males as well as the females?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Hi guys....Ruby...you are correct.
I can refer him/her to a good, reputable person who has a litter due to be born next week, and they will be offered at the "range in price" the OP is seeking.....that is all I can do.
The litter should be very nice....sound, strong dogs with excellent character.
*We still co-own the female*on paper* (even though she does not live with us).....so we did "guide" the owner towards the breeding partner....but they are not "my" puppies. 
The owner of the female will screen the potential buyers.
We will keep a puppy (hopefully) from the litter as our agreement states.
I will send the OP the contact info by PM, as per his/her request.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

I might be the only one with this question, but is there a particular reason you are trying to stay in the $1K range when it seems like most people have agreed that the good breeders are a bit higher? 

You said it yourself that you have seen breeders you are confident with for $2K which is still reasonable. 

Remember that this is a living dog and not a car...when or if things go wrong, you can't just ditch it...and it will certainly cost more than just $1K in bills...

In other words, the incremental $1K to get the dog you want is nothing in the long run...the question you should ask yourself is, if the $1K is a hurdle from the beginning, will you be able (or want to) deal with the financial burden for the next 10-15 years...saying you will likely spend upwards of $10K-15K between normal vet visits, food, training, toys, etc would be a very conservative figure...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes pups reflect on both parents and I can't imagine if you were the owner of the stud not caring about that-most ads say to approved females-usually that means titles-so I think most stud owners care-but I guess there are always exceptions


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

OP, I have sent you a PM regarding TeMar in Oregon.
Sheilah


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

s14roller said:


> I might be the only one with this question, but is there a particular reason you are trying to stay in the $1K range when it seems like most people have agreed that the good breeders are a bit higher?
> 
> You said it yourself that you have seen breeders you are confident with for $2K which is still reasonable.
> 
> ...


Well, because im certain there are quality GSDs being sold by breeders who do it on a smaller scale as a hobby who aren't exactly selling them for a living and who dont particularly breed for future champion title pups, but rather loyal companions. Just because it is a pet doesnt mean it should be of any less quality in terms of health and temperament. That's what I'm looking for and i know its harder to find which is why its been almost one year and i am still searching


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Not sure if it's what your looking for, but contact Karen at Crooked Creek, she has beautiful dogs..


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Aralez said:


> Just because it is a pet doesnt mean it should be of any less quality in terms of health and temperament.


You are absolutely right! A pet shouldn't be of any less quality in health and temperament, so why should a breeder that cares about these things sell their dogs for less because it is going into a pet home? The same expertise, experience, knowledge and care goes into breeding good dogs, whether the dog goes into a competition home or a pet home.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> You are absolutely right! A pet shouldn't be of any less quality in health and temperament, so why should a breeder that cares about these things sell their dogs for less because it is going into a pet home? The same expertise, experience, knowledge and care goes into breeding good dogs, whether the dog goes into a competition home or a pet home.


Except the fact that the title of the parents is usually the reason for the jacked up prices, right? Unless all good temperaments and health come from only champion bloodlines, which i hope is not true.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Aralez said:


> Except the fact that the title of the parents is usually the reason for the jacked up prices, right? Unless all good temperaments and health come from only champion bloodlines, which i hope is not true.


Not necessarily "champion" as in show champions, but nerve and temperament are often the first thing to go when you're not actively working the dogs. Working and titling exposes a dog's temperament in a way that being a pet never could, which is why so many on this board are adamant on buying dogs from parents that are working or titled and not merely pets.

You can get good temperament from a shelter mutt or "free Garmin Sherperd Pupys" sign on the side of the road, but if you want the _best_ chance of getting excellent temperament, you can either get an adult or buy from parents that are worked and/or titled.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

sit said:


> OP, I have sent you a PM regarding TeMar in Oregon.
> Sheilah


I'll second that. Lee is getting one too.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> I'll second that. Lee is getting one too.


I'm glad you both saw this thread.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Me too!  

How ya been Tracy?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Good, and you?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I would like to interject a comment here....
The litter that I referred the OP to is a very good breeding of 2, very nice GSD's.
The female is from my breeding, and we still co-own her. *Karma von Huerta Hof....I posted pics of her on a previous thread* We owned her mother & father. The male (sire of the litter) is ScH3, IPO3, FH.....*Pascha vom Seewolf*.
The "owner" of the litter set the price for the litter.....she believes that is a fair price, and since the litter was completely done with the full intention of having a "female puppy potential" to continue into the future with....it is very nice opportunity for a potential buyer looking for a well bred pup, at an extremely fair price.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Aralez said:


> Well, because im certain there are quality GSDs being sold by breeders who do it on a smaller scale as a hobby who aren't exactly selling them for a living and who dont particularly breed for future champion title pups, but rather loyal companions. Just because it is a pet doesnt mean it should be of any less quality in terms of health and temperament.


Just an FYI, the majority of those who would be considered a "good" breeders absolutely do not make a profit from breeding, much less make a living at it. If they aren't breeding with the aim of titled progeny (I don't consider an AKC Championship a title to be honest, in that it doesn't by itself indicate a dog's breed worthiness), then they are LESS likely to produce a dog of steady temperament, therefore not great companions or family pets. It's kind of a crap shoot at that point. If they get great temperament, then great, they lucked out, but honestly that is taking a chance. My husband and I train professionally and run a daycare and dog park as well as have a Schutzhund club. So we have become known in the area as "the" German Shepherd place. We see a large number of GSDs through here every week, and I can tell you we have no problem identifying the BYB pups from the carefully bred pups from breeders who work at the hobby. I can usually tell before they even reach the training room, when they skitter and slink across the parking lot my heart always sinks a bit. Whereas, the pups who burst out of the car, excited to see where this is they are going just make us smile. 

As to "jacked up prices", I think the way to look at it is getting what you pay for. When we built our house, we looked at 4-5 builders who came recommended by friends or work acquaintances. In the end, we went with a guy who wasn't the most expensive (because he was charging for the fancy sign and expensive ad in all the magazines) but we went with the next guy down. He was licensed in building and as a general contractor. All of his subs were licensed, bonded, and were the best he could get. We didn't go with the lower 2 guys because they had no proof of any of these things, he told us he used day labor (ie illegals) because it would save us a bundle, that type of thing. We knew we would be in this house forever and wanted it to last and not start shifting or falling apart in 5 years. So do I consider that builder's rate "jacked up", nope, I consider it the cost of getting a quality product when all was said and done.


Annette


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