# Schutzhund vs PSA?



## kejhix

Hello everyone!

I'm curious as to the actual differences between PSA and Schutzhund.

I was just recently contacted by a breeder who informed me that she does not do Schutzhund with her dogs, but does do PSA. Here is a quote from her email to me:



> [...] many of my dogs have ZVV or SVV or IPO titles as their is no Sch in Czech as Sch is a sport dedicated to the SV or the USA and the czechs must travel to Germany to compete . IPO is very close but ruled by the FCI not the SV, These titles are more demanding and difficult than Sch but very close. [...] I do not do Sch as i do not like it is not my thing we do PSA the hardest dog sport there is. [...] Many of my dogs have IPO ZVVI titles some have Sch titles as I purchased the dogs titled as they have the bloodlines i want . Very few gsd can do PSA it it is sport ruled by and created for the Malinois.


I've read a little bit about PSA, but the website for it (Home) didn't have much in the way of details, so I was curious as to what the difference is between the two, if one really is more difficult/demanding than the other, etc.

Thanks! 

Kaci


----------



## kejhix

Hrmm,

I just realized that I may have posted this in the wrong area. If I should move this to the forums that deal with these sports, please let me know. 

Sorry!

Kaci


----------



## Narny

This is a quote from another website when asking a very similar question. HTH



> For protection: PSA and Mondioring use heavy enviormental distractions/pressure with numerous objects; PSA uses heavy voice opposition (yelling from decoys) while Mondioring uses no voice opposition; French Ring uses a gun and a clatter stick but no voice opposition from the decoys; Shutzhund uses a padded stick and some voice opposition; Schutzhund is dominated by the GSD's while the Belgium Malinois dominates all the other sports.


Also another quote 



> PSA - slightly patterend sport. You know what will be in each level but don't know the order. This can throw off some dogs. Most of the bitework is "courage tests" which can be very difficult for some dogs and it is mentally taxing. Both the obedience and the bitework has heavy distractions. The surprise senarios can be quite intense. It is a sport, but somewhat applicable to real life.
> 
> Schutzhund - HIGHLY patterned. Your obedience routine is memorized, and some advanced dogs can run the patterns without a handler on the field (I haven't seen it, but have first hand accounts.) The bitework is also highly patterned, and though there is a good deal of pressure, there are no surprises. The tracking is not real world at all, the dog's nose has to stay on the ground to get a good score. Yes, they have to find the object and indicate on it, but real world tracking involves air senting and some casting around. It is touted as the ultimate test of a dog, but in my opinion, in it's current state, it is a test of training. You can teach a dog to do everything it needs to, strict patterns help weaker dogs pass just due to getting accostomed to the unchanging patterns. The tracking, of course, tests a dog's nose but you can teach the dog not to pick its head up and that is a big part of your tracking score. All bites are on the sleeve.


Mind you, I am not familiar with the sports this is simply what I googled.


----------



## Emoore

One of the big differences of course is that SchH has a tracking phase, while PSA does not.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

A good trainer can title a weak/nervy dog in ScHH, this can never happen in PSA.The pressure they put on a dog during trial is tremendous, nothing like SchH. 

Once you observe both trials, you will see the big difference.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Josie/Zeus said:


> A good trainer can title a weak/nervy dog in ScHH, this can never happen in PSA.The pressure they put on a dog during trial is tremendous, nothing like SchH.
> 
> Once you observe both trials, you will see the big difference.


 
I too second this. If you watch both trails there is a big differnce. Joise and I both train PSA at our muti-sport club. I took these descriptions off your site for you to review. I think they sum it up pretty well. 

*PSA* Protection Sports Association provide and outlet for civilian competition in Obedience and controlled Protection, heavy decoy and environmental pressure of the sport requiring dogs of strongest nerve and clearest head to overcome distractions and at the same time performing multiple tasks giving by handler, upper level competition are all suprised scnenario, no routine.

*Schutzhund* a sport that requires a high level of handler commitment, a strong working dog and all routine training. The scoring is based on precision of the exercises including a 3 phase sport; tracking, obedience and protection. If you can take a puppy and train to Schutzhund 3 then you have become a dog trainer.


----------



## Klamari

I train in PSA, have been for about a year now (so still a newbie), but I love it. There are quite a few higher level dogs in our club, and we just had a trial in which we had level 2 and level 3 dogs competing. 
A couple of our club members do train in SchH but I really am not that familiar with it, so I can only comment on the PSA half of this discussion.

Most of what Narny quoted is fairly accurate in my experience. Except for maybe this:


Narny said:


> Most of the bitework is "courage tests" which can be very difficult for some dogs and it is mentally taxing.


Granted there are quite of few scenerios that are more like "courage tests". But even at entry levels, those types of bites really only make up half the required bites, and much less than half in the 3s. 
In a PDC (most basic certification), there are two bites. One is a surprise attack on the handler from behind, which is a very short bite once the dog spins around. The second bite is a courage test. 
Very well done PDC:




 
I've actually seen more dogs get ran in the surprise attack type bites than the courage test. You really have to see that type of work in person to grasp the amount of pressure the decoy (and environmentals) puts on the dog. 
And there is a significant difference between the PDC and the 2s or 3s, in terms of pressure. 

The PSA3 national champ '11, protection phase (long vid):




--the dog does makes a mistake on the "voran" command, he is supposed to guard, he bites multiple times.

And one of the major differences is that starting in the 1s, you do your obedience routine with at least 1 decoy on the field. In the 2s, there are 3 decoys, and they're allowed to vocalize, throw things, jog around, but no "agitation". In the 3s obedience, the decoys are sometimes actively trying to get your dog to break away and bite, and you're expected to keep the dog in attention heeling the whole time. 

In the 2s and 3s OB, there is food refusal and retrieves (any object). 

PSA is definitely a sport dominated by Mals, especially at the higher levels and at nationals.


----------



## Klamari

Here is another thread discussing PSA v. other sports. And as usual, Cliff makes some very good points:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/miscellaneous-dog-sports/170666-psa-vs-other-sports-2.html


----------



## Liesje

DanielleOttoMom said:


> I too second this. If you watch both trails there is a big differnce. Joise and I both train PSA at our muti-sport club. I took these descriptions off your site for you to review. I think they sum it up pretty well.
> 
> *PSA* Protection Sports Association provide and outlet for civilian competition in Obedience and controlled Protection, heavy decoy and environmental pressure of the sport requiring dogs of strongest nerve and clearest head to overcome distractions and at the same time performing multiple tasks giving by handler, upper level competition are all suprised scnenario, no routine.
> 
> *Schutzhund* a sport that requires a high level of handler commitment, a strong working dog and *all routine training*. The scoring is based on precision of the exercises including a 3 phase sport; tracking, obedience and protection. If you can take a puppy and train to Schutzhund 3 then you have become a dog trainer.


For the most part, I agree with the generalizations except the "all routine training." I'm training a dog for a SchH2 and don't do *any* routine training. In fact his last several rounds of protection have not involve any SchH exercises or equipment, some even doing armpit and collar bone bites on a suit. I can't stand training a dog just for routines or exercises regardless of the venue. Yesterday we were training and joking about doing some protection work where the dog would have to try to run up a slide to get to the helper at the top of the playground.

I do Schutzhund and SDA with my dogs, and SDA I gather is more like PSA than SchH. The training and trial involve a lot more pressure if done correctly. Unfortunately I can't say that overall, the dogs have more courage and more nerve since I've seen some pretty nervey behaviors pass (as long as the dog is still moving "forward", engaging, barking, etc but a nervy dog can do these things and still look like its half a second away from running to hide). I won't say SchH is less pressure on a dog because in training I like it all the same. SchH or SDA doesn't matter, we setup the sessions and scenarios to build the dog and test the dog. In trial, at least in trials I have actually entered my dogs in, the SDA trials put more pressure on the dog.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

There is no way a nervy dog will pass PSA, the pressure is much too intense. Not around here anyway.


----------



## crackem

I think some people think to much of their sport


----------



## Josie/Zeus

Yes we do. Kinda like you do with your sport.


----------



## mycobraracr

Liesje said:


> For the most part, I agree with the generalizations except the "all routine training." I'm training a dog for a SchH2 and don't do *any* routine training. In fact his last several rounds of protection have not involve any SchH exercises or equipment, some even doing armpit and collar bone bites on a suit. I can't stand training a dog just for routines or exercises regardless of the venue. Yesterday we were training and joking about doing some protection work where the dog would have to try to run up a slide to get to the helper at the top of the playground.
> 
> I do Schutzhund and SDA with my dogs, and SDA I gather is more like PSA than SchH. The training and trial involve a lot more pressure if done correctly. Unfortunately I can't say that overall, the dogs have more courage and more nerve since I've seen some pretty nervey behaviors pass (as long as the dog is still moving "forward", engaging, barking, etc but a nervy dog can do these things and still look like its half a second away from running to hide). I won't say SchH is less pressure on a dog because in training I like iu t all the same. SchH or SDA doesn't matter, we setup the sessions and scenarios to build the dog and test the dog. In trial, at least in trials I have actually entered my dogs in, the SDA trials put more pressure on the dog.


My SchH club sounds like yours. We used to do SDA and a few of us are trying to bring it back. We do hidden sleeve work, building searches, car guards and so on. So saying SchH only trains to a routine doesn't really work. For my club at least. We also train in diggerent environments and climate conditions. We do pressure the dogs. Granted some more than others. 

I find it interesting reading these threads. You get one side saying a SchH wash out can do PSA. Then you get the other side saying a PSA wash out can do SchH. It seems like an argument that will never be won. Personally I love both sports. I think each one brings something to the table.


----------



## crackem

and just what is my sport?


----------



## Josie/Zeus

I thought it was SchH but really, I don't care.


----------



## Klamari

Josie/Zeus said:


> There is no way a nervy dog will pass PSA, the pressure is much too intense. Not around here anyway.


I saw a nervy dog get a PDC this past weekend (with a fairly good decoy), mostly because he was able to salvage enough points to pass. 
Don't think that same dog could ever get a PSA1 though.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

I heard there were a number of dogs that failed, I also heard that the Judges were pretty tough.


----------



## Klamari

Josie/Zeus said:


> I heard there were a number of dogs that failed, I also heard that the Judges were pretty tough.


The first day, yeah there were more fails than passes. The second day, the PDCs and 1s had much more success. 
There was just one judge, and yes he is tough. But definitely fair, in my opinion.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

I hope the next trial is going to be around here. The Dutchie that got his PSA1 is from our club, so proud of him!


----------



## Klamari

mycobraracr said:


> Personally I love both sports. I think each one brings something to the table.


Agreed. They are very different, it's not really apples to apples.



Josie/Zeus said:


> I hope the next trial is going to be around here. The Dutchie that got his PSA1 is from our club, so proud of him!


He did SO great!!! Beautiful dog and a great handler. 

Me too, I'm hoping there is going to be another one in Texas in the fall/winter (either here or in DFW), that's when I plan to trial my girl.


----------



## LukasGSD

Circe, Koda and Jaxon are going to have to take it up a notch for the GSD in the PSA world.  Lol


----------



## bocron

We have been discussing PSA recently. Mostly because it is becoming increasingly difficult to secure tracking fields for training and specifically for trials. I love tracking, but the shrinking availability of space is making it very hard to do. All the beautiful tracking fields we used to rent have disappeared. The last trial we attended at another club here in our state had to do the tracking on a different day because it was over an hour away to get to the location they could get, sigh.

I could continue with tracking and just do AKC titles if need be, not exactly the same but still a way to track and get tested.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

LukasGSD said:


> Circe, Koda and Jaxon are going to have to take it up a notch for the GSD in the PSA world.  Lol


I agree!! Watch out PSA world GSD are coming up. Jaxon, Circe and Koda are coming. LOL 

I think we are all passionate about GSD and the sports we do with them. We all have the right to our own opinions. Here on the forum we have the right to express what we want as long as we follow the rules of the forum. Everyone's opinions are valuable..... just saying. 

With that said I love PSA and that's all I'm going to say about that.


----------



## Liesje

I wonder if we have PSA around here. I don't really care for one sport above the other. I just do whatever is accessible and my dogs enjoy. I didn't particularly enjoy flyball and then my dog broke the GSD record after only 5 months of training and now I'm hooked!


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Liesje said:


> I wonder if we have PSA around here. I don't really care for one sport above the other. I just do whatever is accessible and my dogs enjoy. I didn't particularly enjoy flyball and then my dog broke the GSD record after only 5 months of training and now I'm hooked!


That's awesome. You never know what you'll like until you try. Right?!? You can go to Home and check and find your region. Good Luck it's a lot of fun.


----------



## Liesje

If it involves GSDs and no mandatory tracking, I'm sure I'll like it!


----------



## Klamari

DanielleOttoMom said:


> That's awesome. You never know what you'll like until you try. Right?!? You can go to Home and check and find your region. Good Luck it's a lot of fun.


If you don't see a club listed in your area, I would try contacting the regional director or assistant directors and see of they know of any clubs or trainers in your area. Because I know a few clubs that arent listed on the website, some of the info there is pretty outdated (theyre trying to get it all current).


----------



## lhczth

Lies, Pan is a wonderful tracking dog. You should enjoy tracking.


----------



## Liesje

I know I'm sorry I just hate it! I hate spiders (ask my friend Rebecca about the time I absolutely refused to track b/c of the spider webs), I hate being really cold and windy or super hot and humid (and it's always either-or in MI), I'm not a morning person, I can never find decent tracking in the city and when I do people walk on it, I hate stomping around in boots (I have chronic joint inflammation in my right foot)....ugh I just have never liked it  If I didn't have to lay my own tracks, I would love it!


----------



## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> I wonder if we have PSA around here. I don't really care for one sport above the other. I just do whatever is accessible and my dogs enjoy. I didn't particularly enjoy flyball and then my dog broke the GSD record after only 5 months of training and now I'm hooked!


Lies - I believe the closest PSA club to you is in Chicago. He is a Schutzhund guy as well and EXTREMELY knowledgeable.


----------



## BritneyP

bocron said:


> We have been discussing PSA recently. Mostly because it is becoming increasingly difficult to secure tracking fields for training and specifically for trials. I love tracking, but the shrinking availability of space is making it very hard to do. All the beautiful tracking fields we used to rent have disappeared. The last trial we attended at another club here in our state had to do the tracking on a different day because it was over an hour away to get to the location they could get, sigh.
> 
> I could continue with tracking and just do AKC titles if need be, not exactly the same but still a way to track and get tested.


Hi Annette,


If you ever have any interest in getting a PSA club started in Georgia, or perhaps even hosting an introductory seminar with one of the PSA Judges/Directors, please let me know! I'd be happy to help and/or answer any questions you may have


----------



## Catu

crackem said:


> I think some people think to much of their sport


Don't you love posts that really add something to a thread?...


----------



## BritneyP

Catu said:


> Don't you love posts that really add something to a thread?...


Right?!


----------



## bocron

Britney, I thought there were already a couple of clubs in Georgia. I haven't checked in a while but I seem to recall a few listed. One seemed pretty close so I figured we might be redundant. I'll have to check my bookmarks, maybe it was another organization.


----------



## crackem

Catu said:


> Don't you love posts that really add something to a thread?...


kind of like yours huh?

I gave my opinion without crapping all over somebody's sport. People have fun at it, carry on. Everything else about it being so real, so pressure packed and everything is else is well??? kind of like I said, some people think things are more than they really are.

I guess if swinging dogs in circles and yelling are your idea of real and pressure, then you're impressed. If you know that's it's not, then you won't be.


----------



## Klamari

crackem said:


> I guess if swinging dogs in circles and yelling are your idea of real and pressure, then you're impressed. If you know that's it's not, then you won't be.


I'm going to preface my question with saying that I understand everyone comes from a different perspective, and if you have practical experience with an environment like police work, then I can see how ANY sport venue pressure would not really compare to a psycho coming at your dog with a knife. So because I'm genuinly curious about other people's perspectives.....

What is your opinion on what constitutes "real and pressure"? And what experience do you have that has colored that opinion?


----------



## Vandal

> I guess if swinging dogs in circles and yelling are your idea of real and pressure, then you're impressed. If you know that's it's not, then you won't be.


I have to absolutely agree with this. 

I have big gripes about the way SchH is conducted and trained nowadays but when it was more about testing the dogs and putting their genetics on display, nothing could beat it. 
I don't think people realize how much "relief " some dogs get by biting. So, the routine that SchH once was, was a VERY good one. Not so much now but in years past, none of these other sports would have held a candle to it.


----------



## BritneyP

I don't believe Schutzhund is what crackem was referring to, Anne.. though I could be wrong. 


Additionally, even with the "old-style" schutzhund protection (which I wholeheartedly agree was a much better test of a dog's nerve), it still would not be comparable to the dog having to bite a frontal presentation in the shoulder of a bite suit, get wrapped up, driven extremely hard and close to the body, deal with tremendous amounts of decoy/helper pressure and distraction during obedience where they must remain attentive to the handler and not bite, bite through water hoses, leaf blowers, automatic blank guns, etc. 


This video is just of an Obedience routine.. I have no doubt this dog could pass an IPO3 and would probably score very high (I know her personally). The same can't always be said for an IPO dog crossing over into PSA.


Blitzen - PSA 2 Obedience - Sanford, NC 16 April 2011 - YouTube


----------



## Liesje

Having no allegiance to either (or any) protection sport in particular, I still think that they are all what you make of it _in training_. 

I was trying to familiarize myself more with PSA and watched some videos that were kind of "meh". Sure the dog was biting in front but there was no real drive (decoy moving and making a lot of noise, so of course the dog is going to hang on, but no actual contact with the decoy's hands and no contact with the stick), the decoy was basically giving a backup type bite with his arms wide open, that sort of thing. Nothing bad but nothing stellar that makes me thing the dog is REALLY taking some heat and fighting back. Then I've seen some other videos that were like WOW, speechless impressed. 

It's not always the exercises or how the dog is worked but sometimes you can just see a dog that has *it*, sometimes a dog that's just going through the motions, and sometimes a dog that's half a second shy of bailing. PSA, ring, SDA, SchH...whatev.

At SDA trials I see some dogs that make me cringe, and others I'd like to buy on the spot if I had space for them.

Honestly most people I know doing protection sports start with whatever club they like (either based on distance, cost, acceptance of their dogs/breeds, etc) and then defend that sport rather than actually participate in all of them and then decide. That's certainly what I do with SchH and SDA. Those are the two things available to me so that is what we do.

JMHO


----------



## crackem

Like I said, people think too much of their sport. 

the previous videos showed nothing more than a glorified training session complete with leashes and collars and directing them on the bite with the leash and even corrections. Add in plenty of amping up between bites, cues for every exercises all thru the build up and execution of the exercise, throw in some sloppy work and a bicep bite with very little pressure, and some will call it intense I guess. They're impressed by the yelling and spinning dogs. I'm not.


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> Like I said, people think too much of their sport.
> 
> the previous videos showed nothing more than a glorified training session complete with leashes and collars and directing them on the bite with the leash and even corrections.


Not exactly sure what videos you're referring to, but in the two upper levels of PSA, the dogs wear NO leash or collar.

You seem to have a lot to say about what you don't like, but very little about what you do.. making it awfully difficult for someone to take your comments with anything more than a grain of salt anyway.


----------



## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> Having no allegiance to either (or any) protection sport in particular, I still think that they are all what you make of it _in training_.
> 
> I was trying to familiarize myself more with PSA and watched some videos that were kind of "meh". Sure the dog was biting in front but there was no real drive (decoy moving and making a lot of noise, so of course the dog is going to hang on, but no actual contact with the decoy's hands and no contact with the stick), the decoy was basically giving a backup type bite with his arms wide open, that sort of thing. Nothing bad but nothing stellar that makes me thing the dog is REALLY taking some heat and fighting back. Then I've seen some other videos that were like WOW, speechless impressed.
> 
> *It's not always the exercises or how the dog is worked but sometimes you can just see a dog that has *it*, sometimes a dog that's just going through the motions, and sometimes a dog that's half a second shy of bailing. PSA, ring, SDA, SchH...whatev.*
> 
> At SDA trials I see some dogs that make me cringe, and others I'd like to buy on the spot if I had space for them.
> 
> *Honestly most people I know doing protection sports start with whatever club they like (either based on distance, cost, acceptance of their dogs/breeds, etc) and then defend that sport rather than actually participate in all of them and then decide.* That's certainly what I do with SchH and SDA. Those are the two things available to me so that is what we do.
> 
> JMHO


Very well said, Lies..


----------



## BritneyP

bocron said:


> Britney, I thought there were already a couple of clubs in Georgia. I haven't checked in a while but I seem to recall a few listed. One seemed pretty close so I figured we might be redundant. I'll have to check my bookmarks, maybe it was another organization.


Based on the website (which is kept fairly up to date now), there are two clubs in Georgia, but I'm not sure how active either one of them are, and starting a club yourself would not be redundant. It's better to start your own club and get the appropriate guidance than to start training with a club that hasn't had it. I don't personally know any of the people that train in Georgia and I know they've never hosted any trials, so I'm not sure how much of an outlet they would be for you.


----------



## Vandal

> I don't believe Schutzhund is what crackem was referring to, Anne.. though I could be wrong.


 
Doesn't make any difference what sport he was referring to, what he said is correct. A dog hanging off the shoulder while the helper spins around yelling is not pressure. The equipment makes no difference . A dog biting a sleeve and being swung around is no pressure either. 

Mostly nowadays, people have no idea what they are watching. Most don't have a clue what any of it really means. 
I don't know the rules of PSA, how much guarding they have to do and where they are allowed to do it etc. I do understand how important that aspect is however...if the dog is there REALLY guarding and not begging for a "reward" from the helper that is. Biting under pressure is much easier for the dogs . There can be a great deal of safety for the dog when he is biting, where guarding does not offer that. 

I know about dogs, can pressure them better than most and while you can certainly pressure dogs on the sleeve or suit, where you see the heart of the dog, is in the guarding and in their ability to out and to resist biting again. Where they stand while they are doing it says something as well. This is where you will see the result of the previous pressure on the bite and how well he can REALLY deal with a confrontation. The blind in SchH used to be a real test, not so much now but they used to go in there looking for a bad guy.....alone, with no handler there helping him etc. A completely still helper, which most dogs, if they view the work "seriously", will see as a real threat. 

Also, if the dog is disturbed, it is harder for them to let go and much harder for them to stay in front of the helper and guard him without being dirty. This is where you can see which dogs have real fight drive and nerve for protection work. The dogs who have the genetics, do this part easily, without e-collars, clever training tricks etc.


----------



## crackem

BritneyP said:


> Not exactly sure what videos you're referring to, but in the two upper levels of PSA, the dogs wear NO leash or collar.
> 
> You seem to have a lot to say about what you don't like, but very little about what you do.. making it awfully difficult for someone to take your comments with anything more than a grain of salt anyway.


THe videos posted on the first page of this thread. One is titled psa3 national champ and he most certainly is wearing a collar and a leash in multiple parts. 

I like dog sports, all of them. don't like people saying things are what they aren't. I wear a suit or the sleeve the same. Escape bites or shoulders over obstacles doesn't really matter to me. Padded stick or clatter or a jug filled with rocks, all the same to me. 

someone said it best that the testing is in the training has it mostly right

I have a problem when people starting making claims and putting forth reasons for differences that just aren't there. prey movements to get a bite, then screaming and swinging in circles isn't pressure in any sense of the word and i'm certainly not going to sit and agree that it is "tremendous" amounts of pressure. and the "intensity" is mostly percieved by those watching and not knowing what they're looking at.

Don't take my comments with anything, it's fine. They aren't going to hurt anyone


----------



## crackem

Vandal said:


> Doesn't make any difference what sport he was referring to, what he said is correct. A dog hanging off the shoulder while the helper spins around yelling is not pressure. The equipment makes no difference . A dog biting a sleeve and being swung around is no pressure either.
> 
> Mostly nowadays, people have no idea what they are watching. Most don't have a clue what any of it really means.
> I don't know the rules of PSA, how much guarding they have to do and where they are allowed to do it etc. I do understand how important that aspect is however...if the dog is there REALLY guarding and not begging for a "reward" from the helper that is. Biting under pressure is much easier for the dogs . There can be a great deal of safety for the dog when he is biting, where guarding does not offer that.
> 
> I know about dogs, can pressure them better than most and while you can certainly pressure dogs on the sleeve or suit, where you see the heart of the dog, is in the guarding and in their ability to out and to resist biting again. Where they stand while they are doing it says something as well. This is where you will see the result of the previous pressure on the bite and how well he can REALLY deal with a confrontation. The blind in SchH used to be a real test, not so much now but they used to go in there looking for a bad guy.....alone, with no handler there helping him etc. A completely still helper, which most dogs, if they view the work "seriously", will see as a real threat.
> 
> Also, if the dog is disturbed, it is harder for them to let go and much harder for them to stay in front of the helper and guard him without being dirty. This is where you can see which dogs have real fight drive and nerve for protection work. The dogs who have the genetics, do this part easily, without e-collars, clever training tricks etc.


 
very well said


----------



## Klamari

crackem said:


> THe videos posted on the first page of this thread. One is titled psa3 national champ and he most certainly is wearing a collar and a leash in multiple parts.


Nope, in the video the dog is wearing a leash and collar for one scenerio, not multiple. The scenerio with a collar and leash was, as I understand it, a copy of a type of scenerio a police dog might encounter. 




crackem said:


> I have a problem when people starting making claims and putting forth reasons for differences that just aren't there. prey movements to get a bite, then screaming and swinging in circles isn't pressure in any sense of the word and i'm certainly not going to sit and agree that it is "tremendous" amounts of pressure. and the "intensity" is mostly percieved by those watching and not knowing what they're looking at.


So if we were to talk about only the video you're referring to (which I originally posted), what about the very last scenerio, starting at about 4:00





 
I don't see prey movements there, that seems like a full frontal attack on the dog as he runs blind into the tarped off area. 

Here is another dog doing the same scenerio, this time the dog comes into the tarp with his back to the decoy (starting at about 4:00 again).




 
I'm really not trying to bash your opinion, I'm just looking to clarify.


----------



## Klamari

Vandal said:


> I don't know the rules of PSA, how much guarding they have to do and where they are allowed to do it etc. I do understand how important that aspect is however...if the dog is there REALLY guarding and not begging for a "reward" from the helper that is. Biting under pressure is much easier for the dogs . There can be a great deal of safety for the dog when he is biting, where guarding does not offer that.


In the 3s, I do know there are mutiple times a dog has to out and guard (in terms of rules, I dont think it really matters where the dog is positioned when he guards), but it is typically not the same type of "guarding" I've seen a good SchH dog do. 

In the video I posted above there was one scenerio similar to a blind, where the decoy was standing in a corner of a turned over trailer and the dog was supposed to run around and guard. Neither of those dogs actually performed it correctly though.


----------



## TechieDog

I am relatively new to all of this but I would say that a stranger in a bite suit running at a dog with a stick in his hand and yelling is not a bad basic courage test. In that vein, the PSA courage test and Schutzhund courage tests are very similar. They say that the PSA decoys come at the dogs pretty hard and are supposed to try to run the dogs. They are supposed to be strangers too. The last schutzhund trial I was at, I noticed the decoy was the clubs regular training decoy. I only mention that because it doesn't seem like a very good courage test for dogs from that club. But it probably happens in PSA too.

At the higher levels there is certainly some guarding but the dogs are forced to show self control throughout. Even at the PSA 1 level obedience, the dog is put in a down stay next to a decoy in a bite suit while the handler goes downfield back to the starting cone. The decoy throws distractions (bite sleeve etc) next to the dog. Obviously the dog can not break. At higher levels they have even tossed out a bucket of tennis balls directly in front of the dog as a distraction. The dogs also need to work while multiple decoys (strangers) in bitesuits distract, tease, and antogonize them. And yes it is all off lead and since the scenarios are not scripted they are not "routines" that can all be practiced, planned for, etc. I think they represent decent tests. For some dogs, the presence of the decoy in a bitesuit sitting within a few feet of them on the field is huge distraction in and of itself. 

Again, I am relatively new to all of this so just my 2 cents.


----------



## Packen

How is the dog pressured in PSA? curious to know. From what little I have seen the decoy always runs away and the dog engages (not pressure). Jason charged a few PSA dogs and they took off running! but that's the quality of dogs in a given club, not saying they are all like that.


----------



## onyx'girl

Jason is a warrior! I'd run too!


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Here packen. Here is a PSA2 protection video. They do run toward the dog.....  I found this video online it isn't anyone I know personally.


----------



## TechieDog

Packen said:


> How is the dog pressured in PSA? curious to know. From what little I have seen the decoy always runs away and the dog engages (not pressure). Jason charged a few PSA dogs and they took off running! but that's the quality of dogs in a given club, not saying they are all like that.


The decoy charges AT the dog in the courage test and AT the dog/handler team in the Attack on Handler. The dogs are also biting in-close on the upper inner arm of the decoy which is more pressure on the dog than biting a sleeve. In general, there seems like more pressure than most bite sports.


----------



## Packen

Thanks, do you have any PSA3 vids? I want to watch the progression. Is there a PSA3? or 4?


----------



## Packen

TechieDog said:


> The decoy charges AT the dog in the courage test and AT the dog/handler team in the Attack on Handler. The dogs are also biting in-close on the upper inner arm of the decoy which is more pressure on the dog than biting a sleeve. In general, there seems like more pressure than most bite sports.


But the dog is only targeting equipment, right? Take the huge bite suit away, will the dog still target same area? It is just like an enormous sleeve, only difference is that a SchH sleeve is only on the arm whereas here it is on the whole body, which is easier target for the dog?


----------



## TechieDog

PSA3 is the highest level and there are only a few PSA3 dogs.


----------



## Packen

TechieDog said:


> PSA3 is the highest level and there are only a few PSA3 dogs.


Maybe because there are not enough clubs/support or people participating?


----------



## TechieDog

Packen said:


> But the dog is only targeting equipment, right? Take the huge bite suit away, will the dog still target same area? It is just like an enormous sleeve, only difference is that a SchH sleeve is only on the arm whereas here it is on the whole body, which is easier target for the dog?


The whole body is not the target. The suit is just protecting a larger area for the decoy. The target is a small area. Depending on the dog it could be lower leg, arm pit, stomache, sleeve. FR dogs are taught to target the leg. So dogs trained in FR will go for the leg, sleeve isn't going to help the decoy if a FR dog is trialing in PSA. 
We've been teaching my dog to target the arm pit. It is much easier for him to target the sleeve.


----------



## onyx'girl

Here are some good video's of training:
Videos - Bojovnika K-9
and this one :wub: 
http://www.bojovnikak9.com/apps/videos/videos/show/3411113-andy-s-anthology Wait for the muzzle fighting sequence....


----------



## TechieDog

Packen said:


> Maybe because there are not enough clubs/support or people participating?


Maybe, or maybe it is harder. Maybe both. You'd know better than I would. I'm new to this stuff.


----------



## Packen

TechieDog said:


> The whole body is not the target. The suit is just protecting a larger area for the decoy. The target is a small area. Depending on the dog it could be lower leg, arm pit, stomache, sleeve. FR dogs are taught to target the leg. So dogs trained in FR will go for the leg, sleeve isn't going to help the decoy if a FR dog is trialing in PSA.
> We've been teaching my dog to target the arm pit. It is much easier for him to target the sleeve.


All the best, happy training  Hope you join the few 3's out there.


----------



## TechieDog

Packen said:


> All the best, happy training  Hope you join the few 3's out there.


Thanks, we are only a few months into it. I'll be stoked to pass the PDC level.


----------



## Klamari

Packen said:


> Thanks, do you have any PSA3 vids? I want to watch the progression. Is there a PSA3? or 4?


There is a video of level 3 protection on the first page, if you follow the actual link to youtube, you should be able to find vids of nationals last year. The 1, 2, and 3 level OB and protection should be in there somewhere.


----------



## BritneyP

Packen said:


> How is the dog pressured in PSA? curious to know.


like this:

AutoBlankGun2.MOD - YouTube



> From what little I have seen the decoy always runs away and the dog engages (not pressure).


Were these training or trial videos? There is very little running away in PSA.




> Jason charged a few PSA dogs and they took off running! but that's the quality of dogs in a given club, not saying they are all like that.


just because he ran a few dogs, doesn't necessarily mean they were "PSA dogs".. just because a dog might be training for a particular sport (successfully, or not), doesn't classify that dog as a representative of that sport. PSA decoys *routinely *run Schutzhund dogs (yes, dogs titled in schutzhund) and I could easily make the same claim about it being due to the sport the compete in, but in reality, it is often due to a lack of training and exposure to what is expected of dogs that compete in PSA.


----------



## BritneyP

Packen said:


> But the dog is only targeting equipment, right? Take the huge bite suit away, will the dog still target same area? It is just like an enormous sleeve, only difference is that a SchH sleeve is only on the arm whereas here it is on the whole body, which is easier target for the dog?


Yes, they are only targeting equipment because at the end of the day, it is STILL a sport, and those of us who are intimately familiar with it do not try to pretend it is anything but.

Dogs who are properly trained for the sport have ONE stable target area.. they will not bite anywhere on the suit they weren't trained to repeatedly target. 95% of all dogs that train and compete in PSA exclusively, target the left shoulder. They will not go right, they will not go center mass, they will not bite someone in the face, etc. some dogs are also trained a secondary target, which is usually one leg. This is specifically for scenarios when their primary target is unavailable (which can and does happen often).


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

I'm working toward my PDC with Circe.
There are very few PSA3. I think less that 10 I think....
I think there is only one GSD that has passed. Don't quote me on that. I will be happy with a PDC or even a PSA1. I have seen some PSA 3 videos that just blow my mind on the pressure and it just seems impossible at times. From what I'm told PSA is alot more on the dog than handler. Again don't quote me. I've only been training PSA for three months. We are really enjoying it.


----------



## Vandal

> The target is a small area


 
About the size of the dog's mouth you mean? 


I think overall, people are a bit too impressed by the use of a bite suit. It is not the equipment that makes things "real" or " pressure packed", it is who is wearing it. I can easily put just as much pressure on a dog wearing a sleeve as I can wearing a suit. I can put even more pressure on a dog simply using a leather rag. Why? Because it isn't about the equipment , it is about the things I do as the helper and the "attitude" , (for the lack of a better way to put it), I show the dog. The best helpers I have ever seen, didn't need to do much more than simply look at the dog and the fight drive was there. How they did that resulted in much more power and fight than all these people yelling, throwing things, shooting guns, etc. 
If you ever work your dog on someone like this, you will understand exactly what I am saying here, because you will see it in your dog. Most try too hard and get stuck trying to put the power into the dog using props etc. The talented ones can bring it out without ever picking up a sleeve, suit..... whatever. I have met VERY few people over the years who really knew how to do this. It is inside the helper.


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> I like dog sports, all of them.


It's relatively clear that is not the case.. you obviously have preferences and PSA is not one of them. 

I'm truly not interested in getting caught up in the age old discussion of 
"which sport tests a dog harder or puts more pressure on them", because when you have a biased opinion, you will always be right and I will always be wrong. Unless you work your dogs and train for PSA at the competitive level, you won't have any idea what goes into it, what is expected of the dogs, etc. I don't care how many youtube videos you watch or how many "PSA people" you have watched train.




> someone said it best that the testing is in the training has it mostly right


I agree!



> I have a problem when people starting making claims and putting forth reasons for differences that just aren't there. prey movements to get a bite, then screaming and swinging in circles isn't pressure in any sense of the word and i'm certainly not going to sit and agree that it is "tremendous" amounts of pressure. and the "intensity" is mostly percieved by those watching and not knowing what they're looking at.


Where are all these prey movements? what swinging in circles do you keep emphasizing? PSA decoys catch a dog, absorb it, set it down and drive it. Yes, they are screaming, that alone can be perceived as a threat by a lot of dogs. Yes, there are environmental pressures. Yes, there is close body contact with the decoys. I presume a club helper at a trial running at a dog that it trains with week in and week out waving a padded stick and offering a sleeve is perceived as a tremendous amount of threat to every dog, right?

It's awfully nice of you to assume anyone who has any interest in the sport or competes in it "does not know what they're looking at".. believe it or not, many of us do. The people who win and compete at the National level are typically not slouches and not new to dog sport by any means, though there will always be exceptions. 

Little known fact: the founder of PSA actually began his dog sport career in Schutzhund in 1991.. back when the sport was substantially more challenging and more of a test of a dog's nerve in protection. He trained several dogs from nothing to multiple times SchH2 and SchH3, was a USA certified helper and competed at the National level. When he created PSA, there was (and still is) a considerable amount of influence from Schutzhund that went into writing the rulebook. He still actively trains in Schutzhund and does Schutzhund helper work today.


----------



## onyx'girl

I agree, Anne. My dog was taught on a helper with such extreme presence/facial expression/bald/tattoo'd (Clark)... Karlo learned he had some confidence/power with the helpers advance/retreats. It wasn't the right time for that pressure, but it wasn't harmful to my dog, luckily because his genetics carried him and his threshold is pretty high. If the helper lacidaseilly(sp) played with Karlo, he'd never known he possessed anything.

A year later, I had an SDA helper run out at him yelling as they do(strange field/helper) and my dog was in a WTF frame of mind, but he engaged and was powered up by the fight. This was on a sleeve, not a suit. Next round was amazing as my dog knew the helper meant business.


----------



## BritneyP

Vandal said:


> About the size of the dog's mouth you mean?
> 
> 
> I think overall, people are a bit too impressed by the use of a bite suit. It is not the equipment that makes things "real" or " pressure packed", it is who is wearing it. I can easily put just as much pressure on a dog wearing a sleeve as I can wearing a suit. I can put even more pressure on a dog simply using a leather rag. Why? Because it isn't about the equipment , it is about the things I do as the helper and the "attitude" , (for the lack of a better way to put it), I show the dog. The best helpers I have ever seen, didn't need to do much more than simply look at the dog and the fight drive was there. How they did that resulted in much more power and fight than all these people yelling, throwing things, shooting guns, etc.


I agree and disagree.. the purpose of "props" or environmental distractions as we like to call them, is not to elicit any sort of response from the dogs or bring out any "fight" in them, it's simply to test how easily unnerved they are. I really don't care if a dog will respond in a civil manner to someone wearing no equipment if a jug of rocks or a bottle curtain will run them off the grip.

I am not a person that puts any more emphasis on the importance of a suit over a sleeve.. they are both pieces of equipment and most dogs perceive them as exactly that.



> *If you ever work your dog on someone like this, you will understand exactly what I am saying here, because you will see it in your dog. *Most try too hard and get stuck trying to put the power into the dog using props etc. The talented ones can bring it out without ever picking up a sleeve, suit..... whatever. I have met VERY few people over the years who really knew how to do this. It is inside the helper.


I do know what someone working a dog like that is like, and I actually see it almost daily. However, since Schutzhund, PSA, Mondio, FR, SDA, etc. are all dog sports, very few people actually rely on their dogs to behave in an extremely civil manner. At the end of the day, they are still SPORTS, and most people are interested in very sporty, high points dogs. I personally prefer a dog with more civil aggression and a little less manageable, but I also don't care about standing on the podium all the time. Despite that, it's still important for all sport dogs to have a certain level of equipment orientation to one degree or another.. because that's what they're biting - equipment, not a man. Last I checked, it would be rather frowned upon if my Schutzhund dog goes out into a trial and bites the helper anywhere but on the sleeve.


----------



## Vandal

> is not to elicit any sort of response from the dogs or bring out any "fight" in them,


Sure.....but that's what people doing it seem to be thinking. 

BTW, maybe you have a different breed but the GSD is supposed to possess "fight drive". I didn't say "extremely civil manner" . I said fight drive. There is a rather significant difference but most no longer understand that either.


----------



## BritneyP

I actually have both German Shepherds and Malinois, however our major disagreement will probably come from the fact that "fight" is not a drive I believe dog's actually possess  

probably another discussion for another day.

and no, actually, the quality decoys who know how to read dogs are not trying to fight the dogs with distractions and yelling.. they are doing exactly what I previously mentioned, testing nerve strength.


----------



## onyx'girl

> At the end of the day, they are still SPORTS, and most people are interested in very sporty, high points dogs. I personally prefer a dog with more civil aggression and a little less manageable, but I also don't care about standing on the podium all the time.


I agree with this and after seeing the sport dogs over and over really do not want my dog to be that(he isn't)
I want a higher threshold with less flash ~ more power. I see some dogs that track in such tunneled vision that if someone next to the track had a gun pointed at their handler or them, they'd never see the person because the track was so highly valued. Real life situations are more important than the sports type training and I wish IPO was geared toward that instead of the patterned same o same o.


----------



## Vandal

Read this thread Britney, and you will see what I just said about the perceptions of the people doing this or watching it. I am not talking about the helpers. 

I'm not one to get into discussions about what this is and what that is. When you have a dog with fight drive, you know it. Be it a combination of drives or just a gift from the Dog God, I don't care. I do care that my dog has "it". Good training uses "it". Protection training in any form is not only a test of the nerves, there is much more to it. 

Of course, since everything is just a sport, why is anyone even discussing how much more one tests than the other? Just agree that none of them do and move right along.


----------



## BritneyP

Vandal said:


> Read this thread Britney, and you will see what I just said about the perceptions of the people doing this or watching it. I am not talking about the helpers.


I'm sure you're not, but that's also a very "you're right, I'm wrong" frame of mind to assume, and those are the discussions I don't care to participate in


----------



## Vandal

That's about the only thing I said that *didn't* reflect that frame of mind. The rest of what I said is loaded with my opinions and what I think is right. lol.


----------



## Packen

No need to fight/jump to conclusions. Best to do it yourselves and judge for yourself, so lets train and title. Be back to discuss after 3 years


----------



## onyx'girl

Well, no rush for me..its all about the journey, not the titles...3 yrs in and we are still at a BH! My dog is just maturing so this is his year to shine~ or not. I'm not about the titles, but what I learn with and about my partner.


----------



## Packen

onyx'girl said:


> Well, no rush for me..its all about the journey, not the titles...3 yrs in and we are still at a BH! My dog is just maturing so this is his year to shine~ or not. I'm not about the titles, but what I learn with and about my partner.


Well I meant 3 years from now. Have to give time to PSA starters to learn also.


----------



## onyx'girl

I think PSA/IPO transfers easily with the right dog. I'd rather get a good obedience foundation first though! I don't see PSA focusing on that, other than capping drives(which is important/not dissing)


----------



## Liesje

I know know if PSA is anything like ring, but an acquaintance of mine added me to this group on FB where most people do ring and similar sports and some of the stuff they discuss, ways they train, to me is downright disturbing and *not* because it is abusive (quite in the opposite direction). I'm shocked and now I see I never realized just HOW "sporty" all of these protection venues have become.


----------



## dreamofwrx

ill weigh in on this since i started out in Sch and just recently achieved my first psa title and plan on continuing on in psa for a bit.

Schutzhund is a great sport, and I believe at the lower levels it is more difficult that PSA, in other words, a sch 1 is more difficult to attain than a psa 1. That being said, I will also say a weaker dog can achieve a sch 1, and not make it through a psa 1. the decoys job in sch is to "present" the dog to the judge, the decoys job in PSA is to try and intimidate and truly try to "run" the dog. If even the slightest bit of nerve is there it will present itself. 

Now, all that being said....PSA 2 and 3 are waaaayyy more difficult than a sch 2 and 3. The amount of control that they ask from the dog is crazy, and i am a bit intimidated about going after these upper level titles. Not to mention the multiple decoys and the environmental pressures the dog goes through. Dont expect crisp flashy ob, because it is controlled chaos on the field and you dont know the routine until 10-15 minutes before you get on the field! 


think about the amount of control required, but at the same time super power and intensity. Very few dogs can make the cut. That is not to say there arent quite a few sch dogs out there that could transfer over with minimal training, (a good dog is a good dog) but i truly believe a proven psa dog could more easily excel in Sch. than the other way around.

Bottom line from my experiences, PSA is a better test of the dog, Schutzhund is a better test of the handler.


edit: what the **** is fight drive?


----------



## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> I know know if PSA is anything like ring, but an acquaintance of mine added me to this group on FB where most people do ring and similar sports and some of the stuff they discuss, ways they train, to me is downright disturbing and *not* because it is abusive (quite in the opposite direction). I'm shocked and now I see I never realized just HOW "sporty" all of these protection venues have become.


It is in NO way like Ring.. at all. whatsoever. 


As I mentioned before, founder of PSA = Schutzhund foundation.


Jane - PSA actually puts a tremendous amount of emphasis on Obedience, and you won't pass beyond a PSA1 without focused, correct, attentive heeling and overall obedience behaviors. Similar to how a lot of people pass SchH1's with minimal attention in their heeling. The big difference being that in PSA the dog is still required to perform an attention heel and a variety of obedience exercises under a high level of environmental and decoy distraction.

This is a 98/100 PSA3 Obedience routine.. and yes, sometimes there is bitework in the level 3 OB, so your dog has to be able to fairly effortlessly channel between moods and drives and go from biting, back to attentive obedience in one routine 

Ariel Peldunas PSA3 July 23, 2011 2011-07-24 - YouTube


----------



## Liesje

Nice video! 

At about 1:20, is the dog sent to bite a passive person? I think that might have been the reason I never pursued PSA, something I'm not comfortable with (even though I recognize it's not "real life" and there are a lot of cues the dog is getting from the environment and the equipment).


I think another difference between these two is what really matters to the handlers. While cool to train and show off in trial, prancy focused attention heeling with decoys crowding me and my dog is not real high on the priority list. But again, no matter what I or anyone does, it's what we individually make of it. For example I have this obsession with chewy retrieves, for some reason I just hate it and when I see it, I can feel my blood pressure rising....but really does it matter? No.


----------



## dreamofwrx

couple pics of my sch 2 shepherd taking some pocket bites, going for a psa 1 in about a month.


----------



## BritneyP

This video is better quality and better highlights the type of obedience that is required:

2010 PSA Nationals - Nicole and Chloe - YouTube


----------



## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> I think another difference between these two is what really matters to the handlers. While cool to train and show off in trial, prancy focused attention heeling with decoys crowding me and my dog is not real high on the priority list. But again, no matter what I or anyone does, it's what we individually make of it. For example I have this obsession with chewy retrieves, for some reason I just hate it and when I see it, I can feel my blood pressure rising....but really does it matter? No.



I agree! and your last comment made me LOL for real!


----------



## onyx'girl

I think that is where I need 'MY' control! It is more about me than the dog~ as described above. I don't know if I'm ready for that....
my dog will bite a suit, will engage a threat. What I perceive as 'control' is more about me than what he is or is not doing. Watching Melanie's video's shows how much fun it can be for the dog and the handler, and really I'd love to do PSA over SDA or IPO if I had the choice.


----------



## Jason L

Packen said:


> Jason charged a few PSA dogs and they took off running!


That's how I run my yard!


----------



## FG167

I am currently training in SchH. I started in the sport with a nervy DS and moved on to a *much* more solid GSD. I'm enjoying myself. I am a type A, attention to detail, nit-picky type of person so I am really loving teaching the heeling/obedience and tracking that SchH demands. I am with Lies regarding the chewing on the dumbbell. It may not matter, but my personality cannot stand seeing it/handling it. LOL Which is why SchH appeals to me, it gives points to precision and that is right up my alley.

I have not started protection with my young dog yet however so we'll see how that goes when I do. He won't be doing that until late summer/fall though so it'll be awhile. 

Ideally, I would like to compete actively in SchH and then try either FR or PSA. My dog is built small, fast and athletic and seems to me that sort of build is more popular in some of the other sports. I just took a peak and it appears there is a PSA club in Lansing, which is closer than my current SchH club. I think I might go visit sometime. I also know someone that does FR with a pup from my breeder and I am eager to visit them as well. 

I like to train, I like to do things with my dogs, I enjoy trialing/competing and I don't really care in what venue (flyball, agility, obedience, rally, dock jumping etc etc etc) so I can see myself trying a variety of things (like I haven't been already LOL). My priority at the moment is to title/trial Kastle in SchH but that could change based on availability and what I feel like doing. I don't have a preference for one sport over another really but I want to do well with my dog and I want to enjoy myself. That's how I choose. I also chose a GSD for the option and versatility to be *able* to do whatever I want. 




Jason L said:


> That's how I run my yard!


BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA


----------



## Packen

dreamofwrx said:


> ill weigh in on this since i started out in Sch and just recently achieved my first psa title and plan on continuing on in psa for a bit.
> 
> Schutzhund is a great sport, and I believe at the lower levels it is more difficult that PSA, in other words, a sch 1 is more difficult to attain than a psa 1. That being said, I will also say a weaker dog can achieve a sch 1, and not make it through a psa 1. the decoys job in sch is to "present" the dog to the judge, the decoys job in PSA is to try and intimidate and truly try to "run" the dog. If even the slightest bit of nerve is there it will present itself.
> 
> Now, all that being said....PSA 2 and 3 are waaaayyy more difficult than a sch 2 and 3. The amount of control that they ask from the dog is crazy, and i am a bit intimidated about going after these upper level titles. Not to mention the multiple decoys and the environmental pressures the dog goes through. Dont expect crisp flashy ob, because it is controlled chaos on the field and you dont know the routine until 10-15 minutes before you get on the field!
> 
> 
> think about the amount of control required, but at the same time super power and intensity. Very few dogs can make the cut. That is not to say there arent quite a few sch dogs out there that could transfer over with minimal training, (a good dog is a good dog) but i truly believe a proven psa dog could more easily excel in Sch. than the other way around.
> 
> Bottom line from my experiences, PSA is a better test of the dog, Schutzhund is a better test of the handler.
> 
> 
> edit: what the **** is fight drive?


I take it that you have titled a dog to SchH3/IPO3 higher than club level and to PSA 2 or 3. Then there can be merit to the above observation, if not then it is just an opinion with no backing.


----------



## Packen

Jason L said:


> That's how I run my yard!


Yeah baby.


----------



## BritneyP

Packen said:


> I take it that you have titled a dog to SchH3/IPO3 higher than club level and to PSA 2 or 3. Then there can be merit to the above observation, if not then it is just an opinion with no backing.


Why is that?


----------



## cliffson1

Its funny, about four of us were talking the other day about fight drive, (one of the four has 40 years training protection dogs, other guy has been police instructor since 1972 and is still TD of police department, and third guy was a police handler for twenty years and is on third dog ,two GS and a Mal over the years)and myself. The one thing that we all agreed is lacking today in protection dog training, is the use of muzzle training. As one person said he has never seen a dog that was good in muzzle work that couldn't convert to real man work. Muzzle training used to be routine at certain points of a dog's protection development, seldom used today. You would be surprised how many dogs today that are bigtime launchers coming down the field, when put in a muzzle do not have the same intensity, or for that matter cannot get past the muzzle being on to focus on the bad guy. It was one of the only thing we all agreed on....lol.


----------



## cliffson1

One other thing, in muzzle work with a dog in training, there is an art to the way the decoy should be responding to the dog to work the dog. As Vandal points out the decoy has to be able to bring out from the dog what is there through the decoys work. With the finished or police dogs, it doesn't make a difference what the decoy does cause the dog is going to follow the handlers command until a command to stop or return is issues.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

OUr trainer uses muzzle in training.


----------



## crackem

BritneyP said:


> Why is that?


I"m guessing because someone said this earlier


> Unless you work your dogs and train for PSA at the competitive level, you won't have any idea .....


 care to take a guess who that was?



> I don't care how many youtube videos you watch or how many "PSA people" you have watched train.


I guess bitesuits and screaming are unique to PSA "people" Using tarps, decoys as distractions and assecories are something unheard of outside of PSA circles. Enclosed spaces for searches and bites? What are those? You're right, I have no idea. No matter how many times I've done each and every scenerio, I could never understand teaching a dog an exercise and going out on the field to perform it. It is just so different in PSA.



> Where are all these prey movements? what swinging in circles do you keep emphasizing? PSA decoys catch a dog, absorb it, set it down and drive it.


 Swinging a stick hand out at the side like a broken chicken wing is NOT pressure, no matter how loud they yell. catching the dog and spinning in 4 complete circles before even setting the dog down is NOT pressure. walking at the dog with your arms held completely out at your side is presenting yourself as a big old pillow to bite, it's NOT pressure. in those videos, there isn't even eye contact on some of those "drives" for crying out lout and you're going to tell me how intense the "pressure" is? sorry, don't see it.

for a dog that has never had cans shaken at them, yeah, they might feel some pressure. But i'm guessing every dog that goes into trial has seen this a couple hundred times, probably since 6-8 weeks old. It's not really a threat anymore. It's just more fluff for the crowd to ohh and ahh over.

if we really wanted to test dogs, we'd be doing completely novel stuff to them and seeing how they react or recover. But since these are all sports and we all want to do well, we all train for certain scenerios and they no longer become a "test' they become an exercise. 

Running down a field and wrestling with another decooy and calling your dog off when it's still 30 yards away from them is not intense, it is not pressure and it is not difficult. Sending in for a guard with the dog is jumping, spinning, and biting is not control, it is not intense, it is not pressure. 

an autoblank gun isn't that impressive.



> I presume a club helper at a trial running at a dog that it trains with week in and week out waving a padded stick and offering a sleeve is perceived as a tremendous amount of threat to every dog, right?


you've made my point exactly. Some are impressed by loud yelling and screaming and spinning dogs in circles and think it's pressure. I dont' need a padded stick or a sleeve to make a dog feel pressure. The equipment doesn't matter. yelling and screaming and flailing makes it very easy for a dog with less than stellar nerves, but a lot of prey drive to bite and feel better. It's not testing thru pressure, it's testing thru relief of pressure, but it impresses the crowd.

Also, is there a hidden cache of PSA decoys we dont' know about? I know there are limited SchH decoys, limited mondio and french ring decoys, and most trial with whom they train with because of these limitations, but PSA has a plethora huh? no training going on with those you trial with, that's cool, especially for a relatively small sport. 



> It's awfully nice of you to assume anyone who has any interest in the sport or competes in it "does not know what they're looking at".. believe it or not, many of us do.


 I don't know, maybe. But where you see such intensity and difficulty, I see lots of screaming and yelling for the fans and very little to do with the dog in most situations. 



> I'm truly not interested in getting caught up in the age old discussion of
> "which sport tests a dog harder or puts more pressure on them", because when you have a biased opinion, you will always be right and I will always be wrong.


That's good, because i'm not arguing any sport is harder or tests a dog any better. My statement i've made many times is "Some people think to highly of their Sport." or something simliar to that. That goes for everyone. My opinion may be biased, but that goes by what I see. When I see a national champ biting and spinning and displacing behaviors and the rest of the routine looks nice, but i'm not seeing the high level of execution I'd expect from a nat'l champ, it tends to reflect in my opinion. Sorry.


----------



## Emoore

crackem said:


> I see lots of screaming and yelling for the fans and very little to do with the dog in most situations.


Wait, PSA has fans? Every dog sport I've ever been involved in had competitors and their spouses in the stands.


----------



## FG167

Emoore said:


> Wait, PSA has fans? Every dog sport I've ever been involved in had competitors and their spouses in the stands.


Would that not make them fans of the sport?


----------



## Emoore

FG167 said:


> Would that not make them fans of the sport?


I don't know, usually my husband is playing Angry Birds and counting the minutes until he can leave.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

TechieDog said:


> Thanks, we are only a few months into it. I'll be stoked to pass the PDC level.


Me too! If a GSD passes PSA3, I will be bowing to the handler/dog, that would be quite an achievement.


----------



## TechieDog

@crackem: All I can say is maybe go see firsthand instead of drawing conclusions based on a few youtube videos!


----------



## crackem

ahh, yes. Youtube is where I get all my experience and form all my opinions. In fact I was doing that for 5 hours last night again, just watching youtube. Even got some bruises for it. I'll probably doing it again for a few hours tomorrow night and again this weekend, at least one day. Just watching videos. 

I definitely won't be wearing a suit or sleeve and my own dogs probably won't ever leave the house.


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> ahh, yes. Youtube is where I get all my experience and form all my opinions. In fact I was doing that for 5 hours last night again, just watching youtube. Even got some bruises for it. I'll probably doing it again for a few hours tomorrow night and again this weekend, at least one day. Just watching videos.
> 
> I definitely won't be wearing a suit or sleeve and my own dogs probably won't ever leave the house.


 
Pffft. Never said or inferred any of that. I am sure you are very experienced at Schutzhund. 
Happy training to you.


----------



## crackem

TechieDog said:


> @crackem: All I can say is maybe go see firsthand instead of drawing conclusions based on a few youtube videos!


 you said this right?

Maybe my written word interpretation is as poor as my canine interprative skills, but it kind of seems to me you said I'm basing my conclusions on a few youtube videos and that I need to experience first hand what i'm talking about?

Is that not what you meant?


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> I"m guessing because someone said this earlier
> care to take a guess who that was?


not sure what that is referencing, but there is a difference between being "at the competitive level", which is what I said, and having "titled a dog to SchH3/IPO3 at higher than the club level (even a schutzhund enthusiast admits the the low value of doing so) and titled a dog to PSA2 or PSA3"

There is only ONE person who has ever done that, but that doesn't mean the many other people who have been competitive in the sport don't have a wealth of knowledge and a true eye for dogs.. you have no idea what any of their training or dog sport experience is, but you're happy to speculate and discredit their accomplishments.



> I guess bitesuits and screaming are unique to PSA "people" Using tarps, decoys as distractions and assecories are something unheard of outside of PSA circles. Enclosed spaces for searches and bites? What are those? You're right, I have no idea. No matter how many times I've done each and every scenerio, I could never understand teaching a dog an exercise and going out on the field to perform it. It is just so different in PSA.


Never said any of that, at all. But if you knew anything about the rules, you would know that it is largely different than Mondio, FR, SDA, etc. The requirements of the dogs and the skill of the trainer/handler are demanding, but all you choose to look at are the negatively examples. I see people EVERY day pass schutzhund trials by the skin of their teeth and put out some of the ugliest performances I've ever seen.. in all 3 phases. There will always be people in EVERY sport, who simply only care about passing. Perhaps there is a greater volume of that in PSA, I'm not sure. But there are also people who compete in PSA who are extremely points-oriented and want to win and look good doing so. 



> Swinging a stick hand out at the side like a broken chicken wing is NOT pressure, no matter how loud they yell. catching the dog and spinning in 4 complete circles before even setting the dog down is NOT pressure. walking at the dog with your arms held completely out at your side is presenting yourself as a big old pillow to bite, it's NOT pressure. in those videos, there isn't even eye contact on some of those "drives" for crying out lout and you're going to tell me how intense the "pressure" is? sorry, don't see it.
> 
> for a dog that has never had cans shaken at them, yeah, they might feel some pressure. But i'm guessing every dog that goes into trial has seen this a couple hundred times, probably since 6-8 weeks old. It's not really a threat anymore. It's just more fluff for the crowd to ohh and ahh over.
> 
> if we really wanted to test dogs, we'd be doing completely novel stuff to them and seeing how they react or recover. But since these are all sports and we all want to do well, we all train for certain scenerios and they no longer become a "test' they become an exercise.
> 
> Running down a field and wrestling with another decooy and calling your dog off when it's still 30 yards away from them is not intense, it is not pressure and it is not difficult. Sending in for a guard with the dog is jumping, spinning, and biting is not control, it is not intense, it is not pressure.
> 
> an autoblank gun isn't that impressive.


Once again, it's very easy to spout all of that from a glass house. I really don't care what you do in training, how well you pressure dogs, how many dogs you run back to their cars, how many live bites you've had with your police dog, how many IPO trophies you have, etc. 

Until you've stepped out onto the field, competed and received full points in every single exercise, it's best not to judge. 





> Also, is there a hidden cache of PSA decoys we dont' know about? I know there are limited SchH decoys, limited mondio and french ring decoys, and most trial with whom they train with because of these limitations, but PSA has a plethora huh? no training going on with those you trial with, that's cool, especially for a relatively small sport.


Actually, because it is a relatively small sport compared to the rest, that is exactly the reason WHY most trial decoys are not decoys you train with on a regular basis, because they come from all over to work your trial. Trials need a minimum of 4 decoys, and in most cases more like 5 or 6 is preferred. Most Schutzhund trials at the club level use one helper, and the vast majority of clubs won't even bring outside helpers because it's easier to use their own. Club field, club helper.. comfort zone.





> That's good, because i'm not arguing any sport is harder or tests a dog any better. My statement i've made many times is "Some people think to highly of their Sport." or something simliar to that. That goes for everyone. My opinion may be biased, but that goes by what I see. When I see a national champ biting and spinning and displacing behaviors and the rest of the routine looks nice, but i'm not seeing the high level of execution I'd expect from a nat'l champ, it tends to reflect in my opinion. Sorry.


You're using one example that you like to put a lot of emphasis on, but of course completely ignore any other examples that have been presented to you.. I suspect because they are a better representation of the sport and you don't want to admit that it actually has more merit than you are giving it. EVERY sport is going to have yahoos that manage to make it to the top, sorry.


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> you said this right?
> 
> Maybe my written word interpretation is as poor as my canine interprative skills, but it kind of seems to me you said I'm basing my conclusions on a few youtube videos and that I need to experience first hand what i'm talking about?
> 
> Is that not what you meant?


I was saying that when it comes to PSA you should go experience it firsthand instead of relying on videos. Not that you had no experience in bitework or other sports. As I said, I am sure you are very experienced at Schutzhund. But you asked in prior posts for more videos so you could see psa progressions, did you not and from your comments it sounded like you do not have firsthand psa experience. If I am wrong about that then my sincerest apologies.


----------



## crackem

I think you're confusing me with someone else. No worries


----------



## crackem

well this is getting a bit ridiculous, so I'm about done. You tell somebody they can't have an opinion unless they've trained and been at a competative level in PSA. But when someone turns it back and says the same thing, you ask why? funny then try and split hairs about it.

I'm almost inclined to respond to the rest, but i'm about done.



> Until you've stepped out onto the field, competed and received full points in every single exercise, it's best not to judge.


and yet here you sit.


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> and yet here you sit.


Here I sit because I have a true appreciation for both sports, and I do not judge. I don't like French Ring at all, and I'm more than happy to admit that. I think Mondio is neat, but I like PSA better.

I think it's silly and unnecessary to assume one needs to have titled a dog to SchH3/IPO3 as well as PSA3 in order for their opinion to have any merit. You wouldn't say someone needed to train a dog to SchH3 and FR3 for their opinion to matter if we were comparing those two sports. You clearly have a dislike for PSA as a sport, and it would have been much easier to say so instead of making all kinds of passive-aggressive statements about how you, "like all sports, but..." and listed off all the things you *believe* PSA is about. If you don't like PSA, don't like it. Totally cool with that! But don't make it out to be something it's not because of your uneducated, uninformed opinion of it. Opinions are great, but they typically shouldn't be inspired by absolutely no first hand experience.


----------



## Vandal

Techie, you do not need to see what he is talking about over and over , or in person. The facts are the facts no matter what sport, what he is saying applies. It is simply that simple. It has gotten really easy to fool people about what protection work is because everything has been so convoluted and turned on its head. This idea that protection work is a sport and therefore doesn't need to have much to do with actual protection, is the biggest culprit. Like the show dogs, people have been encouraged to believe that none of it matters. It actually does matter and we see how much it does in the dogs that are bred now. No one seems to notice what's missing because they don't know what they don't know. 

Frankly, I don't care what you want to do with your dog or what anyone wants to do with their dog. I only comment when people make ignorant statements that are misleading. PSA looks like fun, I might enjoy it if I did it. However, I would not be trying to fool myself into believing it is something it isn't, just like I am not kidding myself about what SchH has becomes. Some very smart dog people came up with the SchH test and like I said, when it WAS Schutzhund, you could not beat it for seeing who your dog is. Now it mostly resembles trick training and the mentality, especially in training, is to help the dogs too much. The people doing PSA say the helpers are there trying to screw the dog up. That's fine, good idea but what crackm is saying still applies. If there is something else they do, good for that too but the point remains that what is shown in some of the videos is NOT pressure, Again, maybe there are places where the dogs ARE pressured but those are not some of them. That's all.

What drive the dog is working in matters. Actually, all the dogs would perform better if there was more emphasis on bringing out the fight drive in ANY sport. People think dogs with fight drive are somehow nasty and uncontrollable. That isn't a dog with fight drive, that is a dog that is missing something, The good dogs just get better when the helper brings out that side of them and that includes the obedience side of the work. The idea that sport should somehow avoid this side of the dog is ignorant and dangerous. Can't get people to understand that because they are too busy defending things that don't matter. Not curious enough to study behavior in the dogs, they just want to have fun. Protection work , while fun, should include some understanding about what you are doing out there. 

I am betting there are many dogs that find PSA intimidating, just like SchH still disturbs some of the dogs but that is more a statement about the dogs than what is going on.


----------



## crackem

and one more time

I don't have a dislike for PSA. I have a dislike for things being called one thing when they are not. I have a dislike when other sports are poo poo'd on because the person doing the poo'ing has a great misunderstanding of what is actually happening.


----------



## TechieDog

Vandal said:


> Techie, you do not need to see what he is talking about over and over , or in person. The facts are the facts no matter what sport, what he is saying applies. It is simply that simple. It has gotten really easy to fool people about what protection work is because everything has been so convoluted and turned on its head. This idea that protection work is a sport and therefore doesn't need to have much to do with actual protection, is the biggest culprit. Like the show dogs, people have been encouraged to believe that none of it matters. It actually does matter and we see how much it does in the dogs that are bred now. No one seems to notice what's missing because they don't know what they don't know.


But thats just it, it is a sport. In the 80's I trained my dog for personal protection. It was quite different. But PSA, FR, Mondio, and Schutzhund are sports and the expectations are different. 

The problem I have is that some of the arguments against PSA in this thread are coming from limited information about the SPORT and are misleading. Britney made the point pretty clear in her last few posts.



> Frankly, I don't care what you want to do with your dog or what anyone wants to do with their dog. I only comment when people make ignorant statements that are misleading. PSA looks like fun, I might enjoy it if I did it. However, I would not be trying to fool myself into believing it is something it isn't, just like I am not kidding myself about what SchH has becomes. Some very smart dog people came up with the SchH test and like I said, when it WAS Schutzhund, you could not beat it for seeing who your dog is. Now it mostly resembles trick training and the mentality, especially in training, is to help the dogs too much. The people doing PSA say the helpers are there trying to screw the dog up. That's fine, good idea but what crackm is saying still applies. If there is something else they do, good for that too but the point remains that what is shown in some of the videos is NOT pressure, Again, maybe there are places where the dogs ARE pressured but those are not some of them. That's all.
> 
> What drive the dog is working in matters. Actually, all the dogs would perform better if there was more emphasis on bringing out the fight drive in ANY sport. People think dogs with fight drive are somehow nasty and uncontrollable. That isn't a dog with fight drive, that is a dog that is missing something, The good dogs just get better when the helper brings out that side of them and that includes the obedience side of the work. The idea that sport should somehow avoid this side of the dog is ignorant and dangerous. Can't get people to understand that because they are too busy defending things that don't matter. Not curious enough to study behavior in the dogs, they just want to have fun. Protection work , while fun, should include some understanding about what you are doing out there.
> 
> I am betting there are many dogs that find PSA intimidating, just like SchH still disturbs some of the dogs but that is more a statement about the dogs than what is going on.


True there are plenty of weak nerved dogs but there is also plenty of pressure. I still say go experience it before drawing conclusions and don't base it on a few videos! 
In my opinion, if people want to do FR, Schutzhund, mondio, PSA, or SDA I really dont care. I think its great that they get out there and work their dogs to whatever the teams abilities are. Personally I like PSA and Schutzhund. I don't get caught up in which sport is better, harder, etc.


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> I have a dislike when other sports are poo poo'd on because the person doing the poo'ing has a great misunderstanding of what is actually happening.


Are you looking in the mirror right now by any chance? Because I'm relatively certain there was only one person doing any poo poo'ing here.

THAT is my dislike.


----------



## Rick Furrow

Hello everyone,

I was watching the thread and decided to hopefully clear up some misconceptions. I will start by stating that I respect the sport of Schutzhund as well as all dog sports. I am a malinois guy but enjoy watching a good GSD. For those of you that don't know me I am the East Coast Regional Director for PSA, a certified judge, one of the originally certified decoys, and a competitior. My opinion from a decoy standpoint should enlighten some people as I am one of the most recognized and decorated decoys to ever work trials in the sport. I am comfortable working dogs in the sleeve and suit on a regular basis and do so about three to four times a week.

Let me start by stating that Schutzhund is a the most solid foundation in dog sports. This foundation crosses into PSA quite well with some commitment to furthering a dogs training. The obedience in PSA is very much the same and scored similar to Schutzhund. A attentive flashy dog are desired. Precision and speed are judged. The bitework required for Schutzhund is similar to the desired bitework in PSA. PSA just takes a strong sleeve foundation and goes a step further. PSA still requires a full calm gripping style however we tend to like a forward pushing style biting over the hanging/pulling bite style. Something easily adjusted in training when crossing over. Full and Calm is full and calm regardless of what the dog does with its feet or body ie pull or push. So its very clear that PSA and Schutzhund have their similarities.

Contrary to some of the beliefs that people have expressed on here biting a sleeve or biting a suit in the bicep are two totally different types of pressure. In the bicept of the suit there is large amount of body pressure applied by the decoy. The dog has to make contact with the decoys body along with the fact that the dogs face is much closer to the decoys face (yelling) is more pressure. The spinning by the decoy that someone pointed out is generally a product of the dog feeling this pressure/presence of the decoys body contact and trying to get away or in front of the decoy. The decoy must compensate by making a circle to put the dog back in the pocket to be driven. If this was not done the decoy would end up trampling the dog. This is not seen in the schutzhund drive because there is minimal to no body contact between dog and decoy. The contact that is made is dogs feet to decoy. More times than not in Schutzhund the decoy gets low and drives the dog on all four feet or very close to the ground. This applies some presence but alieviates all body contact. There are no enviormentals/distractions used by a decoy in Schutzhund and they range from something simple as a hula hoop to water....The list is too long to type. The distractions are regulated in the lower levels up through PSA2 and PSA3 has no distraction regulations. As said by someone they are all trained for.... this is a huge misconception because the scenario and distractions are unknown to the handler prior to entering the trial. The best a handler can do is expose their dog to distractions previously used in trial. In PSA our decoys continually move forward through the dogs entry and absorbing the impact. Schutzhund for the most part practices a stop catch on the courage test due to the dog entering a sleeve which has minimal give. A bad catch on a sleeve can cause serious mouth damage and the risks are much higher than in a suit. This is because the suit has no bitebar and has some give upon impact. I have ran ALOT of dogs in a sleeve and a suit.. The sleeve being on the outside of the arm and far from the body definately gives the dog some comfort. I have ran some Schutzhund dogs however I believe this to be that the dogs lacked exposure to the suit.

We have a decoy on the field for all phases with the exception of the PSA PDC Obedience. Schutzhund does not. PSA uses multiple decoys in scenarios Schutzhund does not. PSA has objects on the field during obedience Schutzhund does not. Schutzhund on the other hand has a tracking phase and PSA does not. Is one "better" than the other NO !! I will say that Schutzhund because of the set routines allows a lesser dog to be sucessful. Does this mean that Schutzhund dogs are of lesser quality NO !! Schutzhund because of the set pattern routines allow for a trainer to showcase their ability to finely tune a very limited amount of skills. PSA does this in the lower levels however in the upper levels there are many more required skills. These skills are not in a set order and are random. DOes this make Schutzhund trainers or PSA trainers better NO !! What this says to me is that a good dog is a good dog regardless of sport and a good trainer is a good trainer regardless of sport. Now there are many many Schutzhund 3 trainers and dogs. Percentage wise its much easier to be sucessful in Schutzhund. The association could be made that PSA is more difficult. I will say this.. Sport to Sport the rigors, training knowledge, and commitment are much different. Most PSA 3 dog just like in most other ring sports are well over five years old with the average being about 7. To me Schutzhund is a much more cut and dry bland dog sport. The skill required is set into the field setup and layout of the exercise. BY this I mean the retrieve is done same way all the time. The retrieve in PSA the object, setup, and pretty much everything is random. It is usually near decoys. All aspects of Schutzhund are this way. PSA at its root is a ring sport with Schutzhund requirements. It is a SPORT !! DO some things model real life situations YES ! But it is a sport. Titling in the highest level of Schutzhund you join a long list of trainers and dogs from average to exceptional...Titling in the highest level of PSA you join a very short list of exceptional trainers/dogs. You cannot attain the highest level of PSA without an exceptional dog and extremely good training knowledge.

Someone mentioned fight drive and thats for another thread. Briefly I will state there is no such thing. If there is someone would be able to tie their dog out and let me see it work in fight DRIVE ONLY !! Not gonna happen !! The dog is going to work in PREY or DEFENSE because they are the working drives. The dog may channel back and forth but at no time is he gonna work in FIGHT only.....Fight Drive is a characteristic or descriptor. My dog likes to fight is a better term. Theres no way to prove this cause the dog cant tell you so its a facade. Its a made up term by someone who wanted to sell a dog or make their dogs/breedings sound superior.

Lastly there are no PSA 3 GSD. When there is and I truly believe this will happen that dog in my opinion will prove to be ONE of the best quality working GSDs in the world. I will personally see that this GSD is glorified and honored within the sport. 


I appreciate the sport vs sport discussion and I believe both are assets to the working dog community. If you like Schutzhund do Schutzhund....If you like PSA do PSA but by all means have fun at whatever you attempt. PSA is here and if people wanna play we are happy to have you !!!

Rick Furrow


----------



## TechieDog

Great response Rick and its nice to know that you are on here.


----------



## crackem

> Contrary to some of the beliefs that people have expressed on here biting a sleeve or biting a suit in the bicep are two totally different types of pressure. In the bicept of the suit there is large amount of body pressure applied by the decoy. The dog has to make contact with the decoys body along with the fact that the dogs face is much closer to the decoys face (yelling) is more pressure. The spinning by the decoy that someone pointed out is generally a product of the dog feeling this pressure/presence of the decoys body contact and trying to get away or in front of the decoy. The decoy must compensate by making a circle to put the dog back in the pocket to be driven. If this was not done the decoy would end up trampling the dog. This is not seen in the schutzhund drive because there is minimal to no body contact between dog and decoy. The contact that is made is dogs feet to decoy. More times than not in Schutzhund the decoy gets low and drives the dog on all four feet or very close to the ground. This applies some presence but alieviates all body contact. There are no enviormentals/distractions used by a decoy in Schutzhund and they range from something simple as a hula hoop to water....The list is too long to type. The distractions are regulated in the lower levels up through PSA2 and PSA3 has no distraction regulations. As said by someone they are all trained for.... this is a huge misconception because the scenario and distractions are unknown to the handler prior to entering the trial. The best a handler can do is expose their dog to distractions previously used in trial. In PSA our decoys continually move forward through the dogs entry and absorbing the impact. Schutzhund for the most part practices a stop catch on the courage test due to the dog entering a sleeve which has minimal give. A bad catch on a sleeve can cause serious mouth damage and the risks are much higher than in a suit. This is because the suit has no bitebar and has some give upon impact. I have ran ALOT of dogs in a sleeve and a suit.. The sleeve being on the outside of the arm and far from the body definately gives the dog some comfort. I have ran some Schutzhund dogs however I believe this to be that the dogs lacked exposure to the suit.


There is so much bs in this I don't know where to start.

all anyone has to do is watch the first 15 seconds of the video of the psa nationals and they'll find a dog hanging on for the ride as after the decoy starts moving lateral to the dog before the bite and then spin the dog round and round and round and round and the whole time screaming like it means something as the dog again, just hangs on. The spinning has absolutely NOTHING to do with pressure either felt by the dog or delivered by the decoy. If you see it as you described above???

I'm not even touching the rest. 

I do agree people should have fun with whatever they do.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Thank you Rick Farrow!!!  I love doing PSA with my girl.
I appreciate your reply on the subject. Question for you...
Has a GSD earned or passed a PSA3? I can't seem to find this information online? Just curious? Thank you again.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

Rick Furrow said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> 
> Lastly there are no PSA 3 GSD. When there is and I truly believe this will happen that dog in my opinion will prove to be ONE of the best quality working GSDs in the world. I will personally see that this GSD is glorified and honored within the sport.
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Furrow


He said no, so Jaxon has to brrrriinng it!


----------



## DanielleOttoMom

Josie/Zeus said:


> He said no, so Jaxon has to brrrriinng it!


Darn it! I missed that part. 
Good to know. :thumbup:


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> There is so much bs in this I don't know where to start.
> 
> all anyone has to do is watch the first 15 seconds of the video of the psa nationals and they'll find a dog hanging on for the ride as after the decoy starts moving lateral to the dog before the bite and then spin the dog round and round and round and round and the whole time screaming like it means something as the dog again, just hangs on. The spinning has absolutely NOTHING to do with pressure either felt by the dog or delivered by the decoy. If you see it as you described above???
> 
> I'm not even touching the rest.
> 
> I do agree people should have fun with whatever they do.





You disagree that there is more pressure biting in close to the decoys body and face then there is out on the sleeve away from the decoy? 

Also it seems to me that Schutzhund decoys yell when they drive the dog as well. I'm sure that for some dogs it adds a little pressure, moreso than a totally quiet routine would!

Rick explained the spinning and *nowhere did he say it was to pressure the dog*. Not sure why you are stuck on that. It's just a technique to alleviate trampling some dogs but that has nothing to do with pressure.


----------



## Vandal

> Fight Drive is a characteristic or descriptor. My dog likes to fight is a better term. Theres no way to prove this cause the dog cant tell you so its a facade.* Its a made up term by someone who wanted to sell a dog or make their dogs/breedings sound superior.*


It was "made up" by the people who wrote the standard.

"The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, *fighting drive*, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog."

Hate to say it Rick but people who know far more than you do, believe there is such a thing. Whether it is a discriptor or not, whether it is all the drives and instincts in perfect balance, when it is there, it is obvious. Like I said, most dogs are not worked in a way to put it on display, so, most people don't believe it. Takes more skill than screaming in a dog's face to bring it out. There is also much more to protection than prey and defense but I am not going to write a book here.

Techie, what I was talking about is not at all similar to "personal protection". What I am talking about and what everyone here is picturing, are two entirely different things. It is far more subtle and not simply "defense training". People are too mesmorized by the big displays of yelling and movement. Do those things have a place in training? Yes, I use them but not for the reasons people here think it is for. 

Don't have time to comment further and I don't care enough to say more at this point. Clearly, people have their own beliefs and offering perspectives other than those beliefs are not getting through. Keeps going back to where it's a SchH vs PSA thing. My comments were not about that and I didn't read Crackm's comments that way either.


----------



## crackem

TechieDog said:


> You disagree that there is more pressure biting in close to the decoys body and face then there is out on the sleeve away from the decoy?
> 
> Also it seems to me that Schutzhund decoys yell when they drive the dog as well. I'm sure that for some dogs it adds a little pressure, moreso than a totally quiet routine would!
> 
> Rick explained the spinning and *nowhere did he say it was to pressure the dog*. Not sure why you are stuck on that. It's just a technique to alleviate trampling some dogs but that has nothing to do with pressure.


yeah I do. I"ve had more than enough dogs that were great on legs, get a bit wiggy on upper biceps and vice versa. My half assed sleeve dog loves upper bicep bites. I think it sounds much better on paper to say it than it really means.

Because he said the spinning was because of pressure applied by the helper and body contact. Not sure why you can't understand what's being said. It wasn't done to alleviate anything. Go back and watch the first 15 seconds. Watch it and tell me what you see.



> I'm sure that for some dogs it adds a little pressure, moreso than a totally quiet routine would!


 and this shows just how little you understand things.


----------



## TechieDog

Vandal said:


> Techie, what I was talking about is not at all similar to "personal protection". What I am talking about and what everyone here is picturing, are two entirely different things. It is far more subtle and not simply "defense training". People are too mesmorized by the big displays of yelling and movement. Do those things have a place in training? Yes, I use them but not for the reasons people here think it is for.


I was not suggesting that it was similar to personal protection, I was trying to make the point that PSA and Schutzhund are *sports*. That was in response to your comment about keeping things real. The Personal protection training we did, the dogs did not focus on equipment and such and would certainly bite skin if presented. It was not at all like any of the bite sports.


----------



## RocketDog

Yay, another internet fight.


----------



## BritneyP

DanielleOttoMom said:


> Thank you Rick Farrow!!!  I love doing PSA with my girl.
> I appreciate your reply on the subject. Question for you...
> Has a GSD earned or passed a PSA3? I can't seem to find this information online? Just curious? Thank you again.



Nope  

My boy is only 6 months, but we'll certainly be working toward that goal after we're done with his IPO titles


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> yeah I do. I"ve had more than enough dogs that were great on legs, get a bit wiggy on upper biceps and vice versa. My half assed sleeve dog loves upper bicep bites. I think it sounds much better on paper to say it than it really means.
> 
> Because he said the spinning was because of pressure applied by the helper and body contact. Not sure why you can't understand what's being said. It wasn't done to alleviate anything. Go back and watch the first 15 seconds. Watch it and tell me what you see.


I am sure there may be some dogs that are the exception but for the vast majority, the close in contact is more pressure. I guess we'd have to agree to disagree about that one at least in generalities.

The spinning was done as a technique to alleviate trampling some dogs during the drive because some dogs try to move away from the close-in body pressure they feel. Not sure why you cant understand whats being said.


----------



## crackem

so that's what you see in the first 15 seconds of the video?


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> so that's what you see in the first 15 seconds of the video?


You told me you rely on your wealth of experince not videos. So why are you so stuck on one little piece of video of one dog and decoy? 

You called what Rick wrote BS. I asked your opinion on pressure related to biting in close and you gave it. Thats fine. I disagree with your opinion.


----------



## BritneyP

Vandal said:


> Hate to say it Rick but people who know far more than you do, believe there is such a thing. Whether it is a discriptor or not, whether it is all the drives and instincts in perfect balance, when it is there, it is obvious. Like I said, most dogs are not worked in a way to put it on display, so, most people don't believe it. Takes more skill than screaming in a dog's face to bring it out. There is also much more to protection than prey and defense but I am not going to write a book here.


I also hate to say it, Anne (and I'm not exactly sure how you've reasoned what Rick does and doesn't know), but the people who know more than you, know that there isn't. After you have evaluated, tested, trained, sold, bred and in some cases even titled, literally hundreds of dogs.. perhaps even written and published books on the subject, it's probably fair to say you have a pretty solid understanding of how to read and work dog behavior and drives.

But I know, none of that matters as long as you've been training and competing with one breed in one sport for the past 30 years or whatever. Years experience does not always = knowledge. My old Schutzhund club TD was exactly like that. Just because he "has boots as old as me" means he knows more and his way of training is the only way.

In protection work, dogs operate in two drives: prey and defense. That's it. I know it seems appropriate to complicate things and glorify it even further with extra terms and made up drives, but it's just that simple. Unless you have a clear understanding of what both of these drives mean, how dogs function in them and how they channel between the two, then it's very easy to believe there are additional drives in place.

We all love to believe our dogs are high-powered beasts that just LOVE to fight a man simply because they have strong barking and guarding behavior


----------



## crackem

TechieDog said:


> You told me you rely on your wealth of experince not videos. So why are you so stuck on one little piece of video of one dog and decoy?
> 
> You called what Rick wrote BS. I asked your opinion on pressure related to biting in close and you gave it. Thats fine. I disagree with your opinion.


 and I asked you to watch 15 seconds of video and tell me what you see.

I'm not stuck on one little piece of video, but that one little piece of video that was posted to show us all "tremendous pressure" and intensity illustrates perfectly what I've been saying, and totally contradicts everything in Rick's post and was from a "national level" competition. 

Then I get some excuse that it's to keep the decoy from trampeling the dog  yeah. pee on my head and tell me it's raining


If I could youtube my wealth of experience it might be better for you  you might learn something


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

If I could youtube my wealth of experience it might be better for you  you might learn something[/QUOTE]


We'd love to see some of your work/credentials. Can you post some vids?


----------



## Emoore

I think instead of doing bitework, we could train our dogs to participate in threads like this one. Tremendous pressure-- check. Shows fight drive-- check. Demonstration of nerves and sensitivity-- check.

A dog could earn his/her IFBS I, II, and III.


----------



## BritneyP

crackem said:


> If I could youtube my wealth of experience it might be better for you  you might learn something


What an excellent idea! You've yet to post any videos of yourself training/competing for us to pick apart, but you're really good at doing it to anyone else! 

I'd love to see a video of you "pressuring" a dog - I'm sure we could all learn something!


----------



## LukasGSD

Josie/Zeus said:


> He said no, so Jaxon has to brrrriinng it!


 

Let's just focus on that PDC ya'll. LOL :tongue: If Jaxon is half the Bada** Odin is.....

I wonder why there aren't as many GSD's in PSA. Is it because the pressure is too much? Or are all the good dogs just in Sch. LOL


----------



## Josie/Zeus

I don't think I will ever see a GSD as bad*** as Odin is, not in this lifetime. That dog is out of this world!


----------



## TechieDog

crackem said:


> and I asked you to watch 15 seconds of video and tell me what you see.
> 
> I'm not stuck on one little piece of video, but that one little piece of video that was posted to show us all "tremendous pressure" and intensity illustrates perfectly what I've been saying, and totally contradicts everything in Rick's post and was from a "national level" competition.
> 
> Then I get some excuse that it's to keep the decoy from trampeling the dog  yeah. pee on my head and tell me it's raining
> 
> 
> If I could youtube my wealth of experience it might be better for you  you might learn something


Yes I would appreciate that, please show me video of you training with "tremendous pressure." I am expecting that there is no yelling in it either!

The poster did not say that the video was to show "tremendous pressure", the poster even wrote and I quote "You really have to see that type of work in person to grasp the amount of pressure the decoy (and environmentals) puts on the dog." There are probably better examples of PSA pressure but I doubt you would admit it if you saw it.

What I see in that clip is pretty much the equivalent to a lot of schutzhund trial courage tests except that the decoy in the psa video is "catching" the dog differently than a Schutzhund decoy using a sleeve would, due to the dog biting the upper arm of a suit. Thats one tiny part of the trial. You seem to reject out of hand that PSA puts a lot of pressure on the dog and are poo pooing (to use your own words) the sport based on limited info.

And again, nobody said that the spin was *to create pressure*, merely a technique. But since you reject the idea that biting in close on a suit is more pressure to the dog than biting a sleeve away from the decoy then of course you cant accept the technique either. 

I will agree with you on one thing though, I have seen Schutzhund courage tests that are pretty challenging to the dog and perhaps more pressure than this one test in this video, from longer distance and faster.


----------



## crackem

hold your breath on the video guys, it will be worth the wait I promise



> And again, nobody said that the spin was *to create pressure*


 you're right, and I never said the spin was to create pressure either. I spin so I can get dogs back into a position where i can put pressure on them if they're moving out in front. That's not the issue, not a "technique" i reject or anything else you want to call it. It's something any solid helper or decoy can do in certain situations. Again, this is not at all of what was represented in the video. It's totally different. 

put a puppy to your face it licks you and get's happy, tower over the top of it, suddenly it doesn't feel so safe. This notion that where a dog bites has so much to do with things sounds really cool on paper, but in reality has very little to do with anything.


----------



## Catu

Rick Furrow said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I was watching the thread and decided to hopefully clear up some misconceptions. I will start by stating that I respect the sport of Schutzhund as well as all dog sports. I am a malinois guy but enjoy watching a good GSD. For those of you that don't know me I am the East Coast Regional Director for PSA, a certified judge, one of the originally certified decoys, and a competitior. My opinion from a decoy standpoint should enlighten some people as I am one of the most recognized and decorated decoys to ever work trials in the sport. I am comfortable working dogs in the sleeve and suit on a regular basis and do so about three to four times a week.
> 
> Let me start by stating that Schutzhund is a the most solid foundation in dog sports. This foundation crosses into PSA quite well with some commitment to furthering a dogs training. The obedience in PSA is very much the same and scored similar to Schutzhund. A attentive flashy dog are desired. Precision and speed are judged. The bitework required for Schutzhund is similar to the desired bitework in PSA. PSA just takes a strong sleeve foundation and goes a step further. PSA still requires a full calm gripping style however we tend to like a forward pushing style biting over the hanging/pulling bite style. Something easily adjusted in training when crossing over. Full and Calm is full and calm regardless of what the dog does with its feet or body ie pull or push. So its very clear that PSA and Schutzhund have their similarities.
> 
> Contrary to some of the beliefs that people have expressed on here biting a sleeve or biting a suit in the bicep are two totally different types of pressure. In the bicept of the suit there is large amount of body pressure applied by the decoy. The dog has to make contact with the decoys body along with the fact that the dogs face is much closer to the decoys face (yelling) is more pressure. The spinning by the decoy that someone pointed out is generally a product of the dog feeling this pressure/presence of the decoys body contact and trying to get away or in front of the decoy. The decoy must compensate by making a circle to put the dog back in the pocket to be driven. If this was not done the decoy would end up trampling the dog. This is not seen in the schutzhund drive because there is minimal to no body contact between dog and decoy. The contact that is made is dogs feet to decoy. More times than not in Schutzhund the decoy gets low and drives the dog on all four feet or very close to the ground. This applies some presence but alieviates all body contact. There are no enviormentals/distractions used by a decoy in Schutzhund and they range from something simple as a hula hoop to water....The list is too long to type. The distractions are regulated in the lower levels up through PSA2 and PSA3 has no distraction regulations. As said by someone they are all trained for.... this is a huge misconception because the scenario and distractions are unknown to the handler prior to entering the trial. The best a handler can do is expose their dog to distractions previously used in trial. In PSA our decoys continually move forward through the dogs entry and absorbing the impact. Schutzhund for the most part practices a stop catch on the courage test due to the dog entering a sleeve which has minimal give. A bad catch on a sleeve can cause serious mouth damage and the risks are much higher than in a suit. This is because the suit has no bitebar and has some give upon impact. I have ran ALOT of dogs in a sleeve and a suit.. The sleeve being on the outside of the arm and far from the body definately gives the dog some comfort. I have ran some Schutzhund dogs however I believe this to be that the dogs lacked exposure to the suit.
> 
> We have a decoy on the field for all phases with the exception of the PSA PDC Obedience. Schutzhund does not. PSA uses multiple decoys in scenarios Schutzhund does not. PSA has objects on the field during obedience Schutzhund does not. Schutzhund on the other hand has a tracking phase and PSA does not. Is one "better" than the other NO !! I will say that Schutzhund because of the set routines allows a lesser dog to be sucessful. Does this mean that Schutzhund dogs are of lesser quality NO !! Schutzhund because of the set pattern routines allow for a trainer to showcase their ability to finely tune a very limited amount of skills. PSA does this in the lower levels however in the upper levels there are many more required skills. These skills are not in a set order and are random. DOes this make Schutzhund trainers or PSA trainers better NO !! What this says to me is that a good dog is a good dog regardless of sport and a good trainer is a good trainer regardless of sport. Now there are many many Schutzhund 3 trainers and dogs. Percentage wise its much easier to be sucessful in Schutzhund. The association could be made that PSA is more difficult. I will say this.. Sport to Sport the rigors, training knowledge, and commitment are much different. Most PSA 3 dog just like in most other ring sports are well over five years old with the average being about 7. To me Schutzhund is a much more cut and dry bland dog sport. The skill required is set into the field setup and layout of the exercise. BY this I mean the retrieve is done same way all the time. The retrieve in PSA the object, setup, and pretty much everything is random. It is usually near decoys. All aspects of Schutzhund are this way. PSA at its root is a ring sport with Schutzhund requirements. It is a SPORT !! DO some things model real life situations YES ! But it is a sport. Titling in the highest level of Schutzhund you join a long list of trainers and dogs from average to exceptional...Titling in the highest level of PSA you join a very short list of exceptional trainers/dogs. You cannot attain the highest level of PSA without an exceptional dog and extremely good training knowledge.
> 
> Someone mentioned fight drive and thats for another thread. Briefly I will state there is no such thing. If there is someone would be able to tie their dog out and let me see it work in fight DRIVE ONLY !! Not gonna happen !! The dog is going to work in PREY or DEFENSE because they are the working drives. The dog may channel back and forth but at no time is he gonna work in FIGHT only.....Fight Drive is a characteristic or descriptor. My dog likes to fight is a better term. Theres no way to prove this cause the dog cant tell you so its a facade. Its a made up term by someone who wanted to sell a dog or make their dogs/breedings sound superior.
> 
> Lastly there are no PSA 3 GSD. When there is and I truly believe this will happen that dog in my opinion will prove to be ONE of the best quality working GSDs in the world. I will personally see that this GSD is glorified and honored within the sport.
> 
> 
> I appreciate the sport vs sport discussion and I believe both are assets to the working dog community. If you like Schutzhund do Schutzhund....If you like PSA do PSA but by all means have fun at whatever you attempt. PSA is here and if people wanna play we are happy to have you !!!
> 
> Rick Furrow


Thanks Rick!!

This is the first post, over the other precious 114 ones, where I actually learnt something.

I do IPO because it is the only bite sport available, not because I think it is something better than any other sports. After reading your post, while I still think that SchH has things that nothing else can offer yet, I'd love to play with you in PSA!

And thanks also for offering a well elaborated opinion with your real name, so many here glorify themselves under and alias...


----------



## BritneyP

Catu said:


> And thanks also for offering a well elaborated opinion with your real name, so many here glorify themselves under and alias...


Isn't that the truth...


----------



## Rick Furrow

I had to go find the video and watch it so I could respond specifically to 15 seconds of video that occurred in a sport with 10 years behind it, thousands of courage test, and hundreds of dogs just to know what im talking about. Well let me start with the spinning by the decoy. He is spinning and not due to the dog trying to get away. He's spinning because from what I gather the dog is biting and pushing off him with his feet. The dog is suspended and for clarification on that the dog is a 50 pound Dutch Shepherd at 3 years of age doing something that has never been done by a dog so young...Pass a PSA 3. Because the dog is suspended and climbing the body it may have given the decoy the feeling the dog was getting around. I DON"T KNOW ...IM NOT HIM. Regardless that particular "courage test" was approximately 30 yards with two decoys pressing the attack. Easy stuff !! The reason the courage test has been shortened in this particular scenario is that its in the PSA 3. That dog had already done the much more mild PSA PDC courage test...The full length PSA 1 courage test and the full length two man courage test in the PSA 2 twice. Its safe to say he will do a courage test. The actual test and scoring of that scenario was based more on the escorting and control. I know because I wrote it and judged it.... The dog and handler had issues with the part of the scenario that was heavily judged...probably because he had never seen or heard of the scenario until the day of. Regardless of the spinning here's the basics...it's not one decoy it's two, it's all forward, and it's in a suit....that's not done in any other dog sport in the world. It's that simple

Fight Drive !!! As I stated in the earlier post... show me a dog working exclusively in fight drive and I will become a believer. It's not possible so Im comfortable with my belief that it doesn't exist. I give the benefit of the doubt that it's a descriptor but realistically a very bad one. There's no provable behavior that suggests a dog has it unless he is owned by someone who believes in it. This magical drive called fight drive makes their dog better than anyone elses. Only certain decoys can tap into it and its not done with yelling or distractions. I believe in the tooth fairy as well !! It's so rare that it seems someone put it as a characteristic definition of THE GSD... which means they ALL should have it !! thats funny !!! There are alot of people who alot more than me about dogs and their training. Of course they must be right and I am wrong...yet not one person has been able to take a video of the elusive FIGHT DRIVE..**** theres videos of BIGFOOT but not fight drive. BIGFOOT videos are more than likely fake but FIGHT DRIVE is so elusive not even a fake video can be made of fight drive.

It will take a special GSD to reach PSA 3. It will be a lighter dog of more speed. It will be a high prey dog with a almost unreachable defense threshold. It will take a very committed trainer and a group of decoys with the goal of titling the first GSD to PSA 3. GSDs usually struggle in the jumping and agility associated with PSA. They usually bite plenty good enough however sometimes lack the nerve. There are plenty of GSDs out there that can do it and plenty of trainers that own them. These people train Schutzhund because it suits them better. Theres more recognition in being SCH3 than PSA3. This is because the European backing and overall amount of exposure. The sports level three has been obtained only by malinois and one dutch shepherd. The malinois is usually faster and works higher in Prey. They have a longer working lifespan than a GSD (Usually). This allows them to train and compete longer causing their sucess to be higher.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

I'm only familiar with Schutzhund, but I had to chuckle a little when I watched the video of the helper rattling the cans at the dog. They did that to my dog when he took his CGC test.


----------



## gagsd

ShatteringGlass said:


> I'm only familiar with Schutzhund, but I had to chuckle a little when I watched the video of the helper rattling the cans at the dog. They did that to my dog when he took his CGC test.


Yep. We did that the other day at our schutzhund club. 1st time the dog heard it, he startled (we used a rattle bottle in sheepherding as a "correction.") 2nd time he checked.... by the 3rd and 4th time he was not reacting anymore.

As to dogs only having "prey" and "defense" ..... I have had too many people whom I respect that would absolutely and strongly disagree. I think one of them HAS written a book.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

gagsd said:


> Yep. We did that the other day at our schutzhund club. 1st time the dog heard it, he startled (we used a rattle bottle in sheepherding as a "correction.") 2nd time he checked.... by the 3rd and 4th time he was not reacting anymore.
> 
> As to dogs only having "prey" and "defense" ..... I have had too many people whom I respect that would absolutely and strongly disagree. I think one of them HAS written a book.


The tester I had came up behind my dog, shook the jug of rocks at his backside, and he whipped around, ran at her, pawed it out of her hand and took it haha. He obviously passsed that portion!


----------



## crackem

you're the judge and you still can't see it??? Have fun with the rest of this thread. I've heard some , but this kind of takes the cake. biting and climbing up the body with his feet is causing a 200lb decoy to spin  I didn't see him climbing, he didn't have an opportunity to. It was bite, spin, spin, spin set him down and out.

How about the next bite. Run away, **** arm up to give a target then SPin, spin, spin, spin. dog hanging on for the ride, stick threat coming on the other side of the body entirely Climbing up the body??  please, that was a bite out of pure prey and the entire exercise was nothing more than that. There was no pressure, i'm not sure where you see it. Was it the one and only time the stick came from the opposite side hip to over the dog?

In both the dog is swinging out like a ball at the end of a string. Where's all this body contact and pressure you write so eloquently about? anybody, and I mean anybody can watch it and see it's not there. The dog is 2 feet away from the body and can be swung the same with a sleeve, there is zero pressure in either of those bites. 



What scenario has he never seen before, being sent on a long bite? a call off from 30 yards away? a guard? The dog bit how many times in that? jumped and spun how many? was given how many other commands after that? Nice dog, but that level of training wouldn't have passed a trial at a national level in other sports let alone won. 

The last in the shack was done well and even the 2nd bite in that was not really any pressure, throw the arm out to the side to give them a bite, decent drive compared to the rest, but again, that doesn't show me a tremendous amount of pressure over any other sport. Again the dog was out away from the body, all he had to do was pull him in and you'd have that "body contact" and pressure you write about, but didn't seem to make into this routine. He could have been up and over the dog with a stick threat over the top and not swinging out at the side too, but it wasn't. It looked pretty typical except for a lot more yelling, which might do something to a dog that has never seen it before, but other than that, it's just noise.

I'm not touching the fight drive debate. I don't know that I'd call it a separate drive, but I do know there are dogs that can work with a blend of whatever you want to call the drives and they are different than a lot of others.


----------



## Klamari

Oh God, now I'm sorry I even posted the videos  I really didn't mean to spark such an argument, I was just showing examples to someone who asked a question of the differences.


----------



## BritneyP

When do we get to see your videos, crackem? I'm still holding my breath


----------



## crackem

keep holding


----------



## BritneyP

gagsd said:


> Yep. We did that the other day at our schutzhund club. 1st time the dog heard it, he startled (we used a rattle bottle in sheepherding as a "correction.") 2nd time he checked.... by the 3rd and 4th time he was not reacting anymore.


You guys should come up and trial at our PSA trial next month, then.. I promise we'll leave the auto blank gun out of it - no sweat! 



> As to dogs only having "prey" and "defense" ..... I have had too many people whom I respect that would absolutely and strongly disagree. I think one of them HAS written a book.


I'm sure they would, and I don't doubt that they have.. but, do they have more than simply anecdotal proof and personal experience to support this theory?


----------



## Jack's Dad

Interesting discussion.
Perhaps to settle this a couple of changes could be made.
In PSA instead of a starter pistol they could actually shoot the dog with a small caliber handgun and in Schutzhund, instead of swinging a stick they could hit the dog in the head with a 2x4 then see which dog completes it's trial in the best shape.
The winner would determine the best sport.
Now doesn't that seem like a fun way to determine whose sport is best?:crazy:


----------



## BritneyP

Jack's Dad said:


> Interesting discussion.
> Perhaps to settle this a couple of changes could be made.
> In PSA instead of a starter pistol they could actually shoot the dog with a small caliber handgun and in Schutzhund, instead of swinging a stick they could hit the dog in the head with a 2x4 then see which dog completes it's trial in the best shape.
> The winner would determine the best sport.
> Now doesn't that seem like a fun way to determine whose sport is best?:crazy:



Listen, Andy - no joke, I literally just laughed out loud for several minutes!! 

Thanks, I needed that.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

BritneyP said:


> When do we get to see your videos, crackem? I'm still holding my breath


Please breathe Britney, there are no vids (I know you know this), the stall is to get one made or find one to back statements. Kind of like the adage those that can't play it, coach it....those that can't 'show it', say it!


----------



## crackem

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Please breathe Britney, there are no vids (I know you know this), the stall is to get one made or find one to back statements. Kind of like the adage those that can't play it, coach it....those that can't 'show it', say it!


you got me pegged, just like everyone else that would rather take personal exception to what is being said, rather than actually address what was presented.

look for a way to attack the messenger when you don't like the message. It wouldn't matter what my videos showed, it wouldn't matter if I was Helmut Raiser, Greg Williams or Pee Wee Herman, it doesn't change any of what I said or what was shown.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

Since when is it required that you have videos to have an opinion on something?


----------



## Jack's Dad

BritneyP said:


> Listen, Andy - no joke, I literally just laughed out loud for several minutes!!
> 
> Thanks, I needed that.


Well I'm glad someone has a sense of humor but as you can see it didn't last long.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

No attacking, just looking for backing. I'm not hooked into this thing. 

I don't know anything about either sport (no desire..not meant to be offensive), which is harder, why it even matters since it's two different sports. I do know defensiveness when I see it. I don't doubt that you have knowledge. I do know delivery has a lot to do with what people are willing to accept/listen to. A positive tone is always appreciated over a negative one.


----------



## crackem

my delivery sucks online

and my argument was never that one sport was better, more difficult, more anything over another.


----------



## Liesje

crackem said:


> and my argument was never that one sport was better, more difficult, more anything over another.


That's what amuses me about this thread. How many people in this thread have actually trained and competed in BOTH sports and then made an educated, thorough decision on which to pursue forward and defend? I suspect that most if not all of us picked whichever one "fit" for whatever reason (proximity, only thing available, cost, training fit with our schedule...) and are now defending that sport as a better test of a dog than all others even though we've never spent a great deal of time doing them both.


----------



## Catu

Liesje said:


> I suspect that most if not all of us picked whichever one "fit" for whatever reason (proximity, only thing available, cost, training fit with our schedule...) and are now defending that sport as a better test of a dog than all others even though we've never spent a great deal of time doing them both.


Human nature.

These are the same reasons why I don't belong to any religion nor sport team.


----------



## BritneyP

Liesje said:


> That's what amuses me about this thread. How many people in this thread have actually trained and competed in BOTH sports and then made an educated, thorough decision on which to pursue forward and defend? I suspect that most if not all of us picked whichever one "fit" for whatever reason (proximity, only thing available, cost, training fit with our schedule...) and are now defending that sport as a better test of a dog than all others even though we've never spent a great deal of time doing them both.



I agree completely.


Then there are those of us who DO compete in and support both sports and appreciate what each one was designed for, what type of dogs can succeed in both, etc.


edited to say: as I mentioned before, if competing to the highest level in both sports at the National level is the only way someone's opinion/observations can have any merit, there is only one person who has ever done that.. thus, kind of silly. A lot of the people who are weighing in haven't even competed to the highest level of EITHER sport.

But that view is wrong too..


----------



## Liesje

At the end of the day I don't think either venue really matters. It is about WHO is working the dog and HOW the dog is being worked.


----------



## onyx'girl

At the end of the day, I hope the dog enjoys whatever venue(s) they are training in as much as the handler.


----------



## Fast

dreamofwrx said:


> couple pics of my sch 2 shepherd taking some pocket bites, going for a psa 1 in about a month.


Did you put the sch2 on this dog? Meaning, did you train and trial this dog?


----------



## BritneyP

Fast said:


> Did you put the sch2 on this dog? Meaning, did you train and trial this dog?


Yes - he did. He's owned him since he was a puppy.


----------



## gagsd

Liesje said:


> At the end of the day I don't think either venue really matters. It is about WHO is working the dog and HOW the dog is being worked.


Strongly agree. And I think that is what several people have been trying to say.


----------



## Packen

ShatteringGlass said:


> I'm only familiar with Schutzhund, but I had to chuckle a little when I watched the video of the helper rattling the cans at the dog. They did that to my dog when he took his CGC test.


 now that is funny AND true.


----------



## Rick Furrow

Just for the record Im not saying I cant see the spinning by the decoy. The lack of pressure pointed out by what is happening has merit. I am simply stating I don't know exactly why he is spinning the dog because I'm not him. I was initially stating that a decoy may spin in a drive if the dog is avoiding the body contact and trying to get around on the decoy. I saw that the dog is trying to climb the decoy which he does on many ocassions because he was alittle small. I judged him several times and decoyed him several times in training. I dont know if this caused the decoy to misread the dogs body position and spin. It is pretty clear to see that the decoy apears to spin the dog everytime he catches him. That may be his style or whatever. Is it less pressure ? certainly. I personally keep the dog on the ground and use a conventional run drive while keeping the dog inside the pocket. I try to make the dog feel smothered and use my body to hover over the dog. I use this because its what works for me during the drive. In every sport there are differences amongst decoys. If there was no difference than we would need robots to do this. 

There are really only three sports that move towards the dog in some sort of "courage test". Schutzhund, KNPV, and PSA. These are facts...each of the courage tests in these sports are vastly different. Is one better than the other? NO

The calloff was also pointed out that we allow dogs to call off early at a distance. This is true. I like the calloff in ringsports that appears to be inches away. Its beautiful to watch and deserves respect amongst dog trainers. It isn't required in PSA however isn't discouraged either. If maximum points are to be obtained a closer calloff is required. KNPV the calloff is half way of a over 100 yard send. Schutzhund doesn't have one and ringsports require it to be close close...PSA is somewhere in the middle. We also have our decoys do different things on the calloff. 

The most difficult scenario of the four was the last scenario in a confined space with distraction. That was the most pressure and best test of nerve amongst the three by far. Some think it lokks easy but I don't believe it is. Theres a huge difference between a can shake in a confined space during a bite scenario and one thats not. 

For the people who want to see video from the unnamed poster. I believe I know who it is and if it is who I think it is he has dog training ability. He does compete and does well. He doesn't do either sport mentioned but likes to stir the pot most times. Thats if its who I think it is.


----------



## gagsd

BritneyP said:


> You guys should come up and trial at our PSA trial next month, then.. I promise we'll leave the auto blank gun out of it - no sweat!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure they would, and I don't doubt that they have.. but, do they have more than simply anecdotal proof and personal experience to support this theory?


Thank you for the invite. It would be fun to watch. For now... I will stick with schutzhund. Gotta "master" one thing before moving on to another, and I have found that no matter where I go in life, I meet the same people. Different names, different faces.... but the same people.
The few I have met who claim to "do PSA" have not been on a training path that I felt was where I wanted to go with myself and my dogs.

As to anecdotal proof and personal experience..... yep.


----------



## lhczth

Since this thread, as usual, has basically gone from being a discussion into a bunch of roosters parading around trying to prove who is the biggest, toughest and meanest, it is now going to be closed.


----------

