# Breeder selection criteria



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I was "inspired" to write this because of some ads I've seen recently. I don't think many people check threads on this forum before they ask about breeders, but I will make the point anyway. The first thing I'll point out is the dogs should have passing heath tests. Hips and elbows are unquestionable. There is no excuse for not getting them certified. If you don't have the money, time, patience, or think it is too stressful on the dogs, you shouldn't be breeding dogs. Anyone who says it doesn't say anything about what to expect from the offspring of the dogs involved is full of themselves. The OFA site lists the hip and elbow scores of offspring based on that of the parents, and the likely hood of passing hips in offspring goes up as the ratings of the parents goes up. It doesn't guarantee your puppy will have good hips and elbows, it is hedging your bet towards it. You should also consider the ratings of the grandsires and granddams of your potential puppy as well as the ratings of the sire and dams siblings. The breed average the last time I checked was 20%. The next primary health check you should look for is DM. DM testing in German Shepherds isn't believed by all breeders. To make it simple for a beginner, No passing DM test means you should look else where. DM is recessive. One parent at a minimum, should be DM clear. It is ok for one parent to be a carrier. The other health tests you may see are good, but I look at as fluff. The next thing to look at is titles. The german shepherd is a working dog. First and foremost, I want to see titles or jobs that prove the dogs can work. Examples are IPG, PSA, ring sports like mondio or french ring, police k9, herding titles, or actual herding. Things like these, while not perfect, show minimum about the character and workability of the dogs. It shows the dogs can actually be trained to perform under various levels of pressure. It also shows the dogs have been active and used for something other making puppies. American show lines tend to not bring the same level of drive and hardness found in the other lines. If these are the dogs you are looking for, you probably won't see these titles. I will say these dogs make fine companions, but looking for the next section is even more important. If you are looking at a working line, a show rating may or may not be important to you depending on your goals. If you are looking at one of the show lines, it is especially important since it part of the premium you pay for them. AKC show placement will generally have to be looked up, which is usually pretty easy. The title of champion is not an easy accomplishment. As for SV, show ratings are listed as a VA, V, SG, and G, in descending order. The number after gives you the placement in that rating(VA1 would be the number one VA dog). The breeder should also readily provide you the pedigrees of the dogs involved. There is no reason to hide the pedigrees from anyone and a breeder should be proud of it and the other things listed here. There are other things to consider, but the things I listed above will out you on the right track for a good breeder. 99/100 breeders you find that don't meet these requirements won't be worth it and wouldn't get a second look from me.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The inspiration I speak of was some breeders I've seen that don't meet these requirements breeding dogs and then dumping them for various reasons. It doesn't sit right with me in a lot of ways, and I prefer for people to not support them. What is a working dog that doesn't work? While they may make a fine companion or pet, they shouldn't be breeding.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I do support vision testing as well. I know in Canada at least, several decades back vision in GSDs was an issue. It was not uncommon for 6-7 year old dogs to be losing their eye sight. It was all lumped under cataracts, and was common to hear that GSDs always start to go blind at that age.
On the OFA site you can find a listing of breed appropriate health tests. New dog owners should be using that as a guide when looking at breeders.

Something I don't like to see is breeders cashing in on past titles. Nothing on their breeding stock, just bragging about past history.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is an excellent topic. I don’t understand posts asking about a breeder after one has obtained the dog or asking if a dog is purebred. Those are all things I want to know before getting a dog. I started looking a few years before I needed a puppy. My original list had close to 30 possible breeders. One by one, I eliminated them and got down to around four. The first one I contacted did not know what drive was. Another one wanted to sell me a puppy without knowing a thing about me. Then I contacted a breeder who asked me a few initial questions. What was my prior GSD experience, what did I plan to do with the dog and why did I want one of her dogs over someone else‘s. She asked a few more questions then said I needed to visit her kennel. My dog was 5 weeks old so a friend and I traveled to meet her and the dogs. The only request she had was that we had not visited another kennel or a shelter in the past week. We met every adult dog in her kennel and played with the puppies. I said, you invited me to your home as a complete stranger. How did you know I was alright? She said, your answers. I’m not sure what exactly convinced her, since I did not tell her all that much, but she said she turns away quite a few people if she doesn’t like their answers. She also prefer one visit to meet a buyer if they are able, and then a second visit to purchase a dog.

While we were there, we got all the health information, answers about pedigrees, about why she uses certain dogs for breeding and about titling. She has over 30 IPO titles in her history. She even gave us a complete lesson on linebreeding and why she doesn’t do that. I felt very confident she knows a lot about German Shepherds and about her own dogs.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I do support vision testing as well. I know in Canada at least, several decades back vision in GSDs was an issue. It was not uncommon for 6-7 year old dogs to be losing their eye sight. It was all lumped under cataracts, and was common to hear that GSDs always start to go blind at that age.
> On the OFA site you can find a listing of breed appropriate health tests. New dog owners should be using that as a guide when looking at breeders.
> 
> Something I don't like to see is breeders cashing in on past titles. Nothing on their breeding stock, just bragging about past history.


That grinds my gears too. You always start with the dog in front of you.It doesn't matter if its a bordy blendy grandson. If the parents can't work, why would I think the puppy can. How do I know your dogs got any of the good genes from those great ancestors if you never prove it? For all I know you could have a drivey nerve bag that bites a kid for looking at him wrong, but runs when a grown man yells at him.I use bordy as an example, not that these are actual traits from his offspring I've seen.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...comment deleted, posted in error.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> This is an excellent topic. I don’t understand posts asking about a breeder after one has obtained the dog or asking if a dog is purebred. Those are all things I want to know before getting a dog. I started looking a few years before I needed a puppy. My original list had close to 30 possible breeders. One by one, I eliminated them and got down to around four. The first one I contacted did not know what drive was. Another one wanted to sell me a puppy without knowing a thing about me. Then I contacted a breeder who asked me a few initial questions. What was my prior GSD experience, what did I plan to do with the dog and why did I want one of her dogs over someone else‘s. She asked a few more questions then said I needed to visit her kennel. My dog was 5 weeks old so a friend and I traveled to meet her and the dogs. The only request she had was that we had not visited another kennel or a shelter in the past week. We met every adult dog in her kennel and played with the puppies. I said, you invited me to your home as a complete stranger. How did you know I was alright? She said, your answers. I’m not sure what exactly convinced her, since I did not tell her all that much, but she said she turns away quite a few people if she doesn’t like their answers. She also prefer one visit to meet a buyer if they are able, and then a second visit to purchase a dog.
> 
> While we were there, we got all the health information, answers about pedigrees, about why she uses certain dogs for breeding and about titling. She has over 30 IPO titles in her history. She even gave us a complete lesson on linebreeding and why she doesn’t do that. I felt very confident she knows a lot about German Shepherds and about her own dogs.


Those are questions you should have the answer to before you pay any money. It's one thing if you are looking for more information on your dogs pedigree to learn or get opinions on the dog. If you had doubts about the dog or breeder, you shouldn't have bought the dog without addressing those. Now that you have it, that stuff really isn't going to matter. If you question whether your dog is purebred, he most likely isn't eligible for anything where it matters.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Haha! Let's dance!
> 
> First and foremost, if you are going to look for those things, you need to do your research on just what exactly those things mean. But before I go there, you really need to be honest and tell me if you really think that temperament isn't in deep doodoo with this breed. It must be the most import aspect that we look at. Good or bad, form follows function.


Yes. But I’m still not sure I can look at a puppy and know what it’s adult temperament will be. I asked for a dog that would be slightly more social than breed standard, but along with that I got some other quirks I could have down without. I did not understand that certain traits might go together with others. Health testing also doesn’t mean a dog won’t get a very expensive illness along the way.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Haha! Let's dance!
> 
> First and foremost, if you are going to look for those things, you need to do your research on just what exactly those things mean. But before I go there, you really need to be honest and tell me if you really think that temperament isn't in deep doodoo with this breed. It must be the most import aspect that we look at. Good or bad, form follows function.


Leave it to you to ask a very loaded question. There are temperament issues in the breed no doubt, but I see deep doodoo as an exaggeration. We probably see that as a different point, but for me it would be when a breed is facing massive bans, has an unstable and unpredictable temperament, and overall has reached a point where it can't exist as is. The breed has changed, and I fell is undeniably no longer the premier working dog. I think all of the temperament issues are also found in other working breeds. To address temperament though, it is the most important aspect. If you don't meet my other criteria however, it's not worth delving into.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I was "inspired" to write this because of some ads I've seen recently. I don't think many people check threads on this forum before they ask about breeders, but I will make the point anyway. The first thing I'll point out is the dogs should have passing heath tests. Hips and elbows are unquestionable. There is no excuse for not getting them certified. If you don't have the money, time, patience, or think it is too stressful on the dogs, you shouldn't be breeding dogs. Anyone who says it doesn't say anything about what to expect from the offspring of the dogs involved is full of themselves. The OFA site lists the hip and elbow scores of offspring based on that of the parents, and the likely hood of passing hips in offspring goes up as the ratings of the parents goes up. It doesn't guarantee your puppy will have good hips and elbows, it is hedging your bet towards it. You should also consider the ratings of the grandsires and granddams of your potential puppy as well as the ratings of the sire and dams siblings. The breed average the last time I checked was 20%. The next primary health check you should look for is DM. DM testing in German Shepherds isn't believed by all breeders. To make it simple for a beginner, No passing DM test means you should look else where. DM is recessive. One parent at a minimum, should be DM clear. It is ok for one parent to be a carrier. The other health tests you may see are good, but I look at as fluff. The next thing to look at is titles. The german shepherd is a working dog. First and foremost, I want to see titles or jobs that prove the dogs can work. Examples are IPG, PSA, ring sports like mondio or french ring, police k9, herding titles, or actual herding. Things like these, while not perfect, show minimum about the character and workability of the dogs. It shows the dogs can actually be trained to perform under various levels of pressure. It also shows the dogs have been active and used for something other making puppies. American show lines tend to not bring the same level of drive and hardness found in the other lines. If these are the dogs you are looking for, you probably won't see these titles. I will say these dogs make fine companions, but looking for the next section is even more important. If you are looking at a working line, a show rating may or may not be important to you depending on your goals. If you are looking at one of the show lines, it is especially important since it part of the premium you pay for them. AKC show placement will generally have to be looked up, which is usually pretty easy. The title of champion is not an easy accomplishment. As for SV, show ratings are listed as a VA, V, SG, and G, in descending order. The number after gives you the placement in that rating(VA1 would be the number one VA dog). The breeder should also readily provide you the pedigrees of the dogs involved. There is no reason to hide the pedigrees from anyone and a breeder should be proud of it and the other things listed here. There are other things to consider, but the things I listed above will out you on the right track for a good breeder. 99/100 breeders you find that don't meet these requirements won't be worth it and wouldn't get a second look from me.


Haha! Let's dance!

Before one should look for anything on your list from a breeder, they should look at what all of that stuff really means. 

Form follows function. If a dog can't work, the conformation, and the health of that conformation, is of no consequence. More often than not, dogs with less than perfect hips and elbows can and do work as well as function as fantastic family pets. Dogs with lesser temperaments are washed from work and as pets, they either are relegated to the backyard or passed from home to home until frequently meeting untimely deaths with the pink juice. Titles are good but titles aren't everything. Know what you want, and learn how to recognize it when you see it. Easier said than done but it doesn't have to be that hard. People often tell you what you need to know, just shut your mouth and listen. Don't be afraid to take notes. 

Regarding hips and elbows, learn to read the xrays yourselves. It's not that hard to do. I know of a breeder whose brood bitch's hips are marginally rated and they are honest enough to post the less than desirable results... but they will also provide a copy of the xrays upon request. Now I am no expert, but I do know enough to know that I would not hesitate to buy a puppy out of that bitch. 

Someone posted an article not so long ago on here that explored hip ratings then and now and found that after all of these years, there has been negligible improvement and the conclusion was made that there must be other, more primary, causes of HD than breeding HD clear dogs to HD clear dogs. Now I am not saying to ignore a lack of certifications or poor certifications, just saying that there is wiggle room 

DM, smh, is a disease that has an average onset of 11 years. German Shepherds today only live 8 to 11 years. It wasn't that long ago that they lived on average 10 - 12 years. Cancer had stepped in and taken its toll. Cancer scares the bejesus out of me. I have lost pets to cancer, it is ugly. As long as breeders keep their eye on DM, and ignore cancer, our breed is heading down the same path of the Rottweiler with an average life span of 7 - 9 years with cancer being a primary source of death. But back to DM, I don't follow it closely because it is an old dog's disease but the last I heard, the type of DM tested for isn't even the same type generally found in GSDs. To complicate things further, is the diagnosis can only be confirmed after death. Many breeders are dead set that what vets are diagnosing as DM is actually some type of spinal ankylosis spondylitis. Stefan at Staatsmacht is a good person to talk with about this if you have access to him. There are dogs that don't carry DM that have been confirmed to have had DM. There are dogs with two recessives of DM that never develop DM leading some to believe that DM is either an incomplete recessive like EPI or in some dogs it needs something environmental to flip the switch. There simply are too many unknowns to give DM testing much weight as a deciding factor. 

My bottom line is do your homework. Don't hyperfocus on poor websites or lack of posted health tests. Just ask. Pay attention to titles, but NOTHING is going to tell you more about the individual dogs being bred except listening to what the breeder has to say about the dogs. Don't ask leading questions. Let the breeder talk and gather information. The one thing that always will bring me back to a litter is something that the breeder said, usually about the dam, that makes me take a second look.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Yes. But I’m still not sure I can look at a puppy and know what it’s adult temperament will be. I asked for a dog that would be slightly more social than breed standard, but along with that I got some other quirks I could have down without. I did not understand that certain traits might go together with others. Health testing also doesn’t mean a dog won’t get a very expensive illness along the way.


Comment deleted, partial comment posted in error. Please see full post.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Yes. But I’m still not sure I can look at a puppy and know what it’s adult temperament will be. I asked for a dog that would be slightly more social than breed standard, but along with that I got some other quirks I could have down without. I did not understand that certain traits might go together with others. Health testing also doesn’t mean a dog won’t get a very expensive illness along the way.





Bearshandler said:


> Leave it to you to ask a very loaded question. There are temperament issues in the breed no doubt, but I see deep doodoo as an exaggeration. We probably see that as a different point, but for me it would be when a breed is facing massive bans, has an unstable and unpredictable temperament, and overall has reached a point where it can't exist as is. The breed has changed, and I fell is undeniably no longer the premier working dog. I think all of the temperament issues are also found in other working breeds. To address temperament though, it is the most important aspect. If you don't meet my other criteria however, it's not worth delving into.



It gets worse. Partial comment posted in error. Please respond to full comment.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@MineAreWorkingline It could also be environmental. Maybe it’s due to early speuter, or the wrong kind of early exercise, maybe food. I have definitely connect my dog’s allergies and even some behavior quirks to early antibiotic over prescription and poor handling by an inexperienced vet, and to his not feeling well for his entire socialization period.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> @MineAreWorkingline It could also be environmental. Maybe it’s due to early speuter, or the wrong kind of early exercise, maybe food. I have definitely connect my dog’s allergies and even some behavior quirks to early antibiotic over prescription and poor handling by an inexperienced vet, and to his not feeling well for his entire socialization period.


Yep, and one of my dogs was hit really hard with giardia as a pup, thankfully responded to meds very well, but developed a digestive issue with a genetic predisposition as an adult. I spoke to his breeder and no matter how much digging we did, we could find no history of the issue in his pedigree. I suspect a link to when he was sick.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Haha! Let's dance!
> 
> Before one should look for anything on your list from a breeder, they should look at what all of that stuff really means.
> 
> ...


I agree you *should* know what that stuff means. The basics of titles being there is still important. If nothing else, knowing things to look for puts you on the write track.

You compare middle of the road health issues to extreme temperment issues. I have seen people far more happy with lesser temperments than lesser health. If the dog can't work, then health and conformation don't matter. I say a dog without the health can't work. Debilitating health issues will over shadow working ability every time. Do you think people would be happier with an american showline or a broken down working line. My answer would the dog I can still take out and enjoy, not the dog that I am stuck worrying about stairs and carrying in and out of the car. As far as reading hip and elbow ratings, of course it is ideal if you can read them yourself. I vehemently disagree with your statement that they are easy to read. I struggle to read them even now. The amount of questions about how they look also says otherwise. Your argument that it is not always hereditary does change the benefit of reducing or eliminating that variable. According to the OFA website, while it has not been a significant change in dysplastic dogs, the number has in fact gone down. The amount of dogs with excellent ratings has gone up significantly. Overall I would say the issue is improving. I would say people tell you what they want you to know, and you may have read between the lines to find what you need to know. As for the bitch you refer to, maybe she is good enough for it to not matter. I would not buy nor recommend anyone buy puppies from a dysplastic dog.

As for DM, there is a lot of information on it. If you do your own research on it and find you are comfortable with the breeder, than so be it. You have to remember, someone who has that information on DM isn't going to need my advice on it. The short and simple is if asked I would say what I said above. If someone wanted to sit down and talk about it, I would explain the things you said. I would never tell someone to disregard it however. I would tell someone who asked to do their best to avoid it, regardless of when it onsets. The age that I know of where it can begin to onset is 8 years, which can come as quite a shock to a lot of people based on their dogs at that age.

Ultimately, I agree you should do your homework. What I said above is following what I said will put you on the right track. It is funny you mention Staatsmacht when you talk about the shorting lifespan in the breed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yep, and one of my dogs was hit really hard with giardia as a pup, thankfully responded to meds very well, but developed a digestive issue with a genetic predisposition as an adult. I spoke to his breeder and no matter how much digging we did, we could find no history of the issue in his pedigree. I suspect a link to when he was sick.


Same here. Giardia with a huge amount of antibiotics because it did not clear up. Then that morphed into very bad pano, then bloat, then very bad food allergies.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What middle of the road health issues? What extreme temperaments? Please clarify. 

Dogs with less than perfect hips and elbows DO work. Less than stellar hips are not necessarily debilitating. HD is common in people too. Nobody is xraying their kid's hips before letting them play sports nor are companies xraying the hips of employees. 

Have you ever owned a dog with HD? I have. There was no carrying them around or up and down steps. When they got around 10 or 11 years, they needed a little help getting around. That's all. And yes they were a little bit reluctant to go the distance but distance to me means miles vs the average dog that walks around the block a few times.

How do you know that the OFA numbers aren't being manipulated? Maybe people whose dogs have lesser hip xrays simply aren't sending them in. Why should they? Unless it is mandated that all GSDs have their hip xrays sent in, you can't compare apples to apples.

I NEVER said that the bitch that certified as marginal was dyaplastic. She wasn't. And that was my point. 

8 years or 11 years, it doesn’t matter for DM onset, those are the end of life years for this breed and they will die of something or we will have to humanely euthanize them for some reason or another. At least DM is painless from what I hear.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hemangio has a hereditary component
Bloat has a hereditary component
EPI definitely has a hereditary component
Dysplasia of hips and elbows has a hereditary component
The list is endless

One of the things I look at in breeders is longevity. It tells a tale on it's own. It's the reason I stalk breeders, lol. I want a clear picture of what those lifespans are and what those lives look like. Dogs are companion animals first and foremost and anything that interferes with the ability to be a companion should not be being reproduced. 
Whether working or pet, they act as partners not equipment. To euthanize or dump because work or breeding years are over is wrong. 

It's a recipe, one missing ingredient makes it all wrong. You need health, conformation and temperament. All are equal, none should be sacrificed.

DM is only painless physically. The psychological impact on the owner and the dog is devastating. Keep in mind that you could be looking at gradual deterioration over a year or more. It's the equivalent of watching your dog disappear one small piece at a time and having to wonder if tomorrow will be the day that it's gone too far.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I agree. Look for longevity! A very important trait. 

EPI, hips and elbows, bloat also have an environmental component, bloat is tied to conformation / weight as well.

I would be looking for bloat in the family tree too before looking at hips and elbows.

Everyone needs to pick their poisons and not all jump on the hip, elbow and DM bandwagon. There are far worse, and just as common, other things.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What middle of the road health issues? What extreme temperaments? Please clarify.
> 
> Dogs with less than perfect hips and elbows DO work. Less than stellar hips are not necessarily debilitating. HD is common in people too. Nobody is xraying their kid's hips before letting them play sports nor are companies xraying the hips of employees.


You talk about temperament issues that would prevent a dog from living as a pet and issues that would prevent it from working as if they are the same, which isn't necessarily true. A dog that lacks the aggression or drive to do protection may live a perfectly fine life as a pet for example. When you talk about health issues, you refer not to dogs that are actually dysplatic, but dogs that have less than normal ratings. That is not an apples to apples comparison. For the record, I had to undergo decently health screening to join the military. I also had to pass a physical every year to play sports.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have you ever owned a dog with HD? I have. There was no carrying them around or up and down steps. When they got around 10 or 11 years, they needed a little help getting around. That's all. And yes they were a little bit reluctant to go the distance but distance to me means miles vs the average dog that walks around the block a few times.


I have dealt with a dog with HD. That dog was put down at 7 years old for quality of life concerns.


MineAreWorkingline said:


> How do you know that the OFA numbers aren't being manipulated? Maybe people whose dogs have lesser hip xrays simply aren't sending them in. Why should they? Unless it is mandated that all GSDs have their hip xrays sent in, you can't compare apples to apples.


I don't know the number aren't manipulated. I don't know that they weren't before either so its a moot point. I don't think people have become more or less dishonest over time.


MineAreWorkingline said:


> I NEVER said that the bitch that certified as marginal was dyaplastic. She wasn't. And that was my point.


I don't really know why you would bring her up then. I didn't say they needed to have excellent hips.


MineAreWorkingline said:


> 8 years or 11 years, it doesn’t matter for DM onset, those are the end of life years for this breed and they will die of something or we will have to humanely euthanize them for some reason or another. At least DM is painless from what I hear.


It's my belief that by working to eliminate diseases like this, you can ultimately extend the lifespan of the breed. If you are fine with watching your dog die from DM, that's on you. I think you would be in the minority.

I feel as if you are trying to push a story that I am insinuating temperament isn't important. Not true. If I don't believe the health will check out for a puppy, I won't spend my time figuring out whether out has the temperament I want. One of those things I can see without ever talking to the breeder. If it doesn't checkout, I don't know why I would continue down a dead end.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I talk about temperament issues that would make an average owner dissatisfied. Then there are temperament issues that would cause a dog to wash. I did not present them as the same. 

Did they xray your hips for the military or to play sports? If not, perhaps HD isn't necessary that big of an issue. When I talk about hip and elbow certifications, and the subjective meaning of the results, I spoke about a dog with a poor certification that was not dysplastic, not the other way around. Please reread my post.

I am on my third dysplastic dog. The first one died at 13 years from natural causes and he had severe dysplasia in both hips, the second dog was humanely euthanized at 12 years due to her hips, one which was severe, and the third one is 5 years, 98#, and still hiking. 

I know that people often do not OFA hips when the results are less than stellar unless they have a compelling reason to do so. I actually know breeders that do xray, will provide you with the xrays, but don't OFA. Those results and that information normally won't appear on a website. Then again, I have seen the xrays posted for public display, OFA or not.

To answer your question as to why I brought up the non dysplastic bitch with the marginal certification should be quite clear. Things aren't always what they appear to be. In other words, don't put too much stock in hip certifications. It's overrated.

I think if you are going to work on diseases that affect this breed"s health and longevity, focus on the major killers of this breed, hemangio and bloat. Almost all of our dogs will enter a time where it is all a downhill slide. Does it matter DM or diabetes or some other longterm illness? As I said, pick your poison but either way, DM testing is not a reliable indicator of whether a dog will or will not get DM and should not be presented as such nor should breeders that don't DM test be shunned because of the unreliability of the test.

I am not trying to push anything about YOU. I am just saying what I believe should be said when someone comes to this forum asking about selecting a breeder.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree. Look for longevity! A very important trait.
> 
> EPI, hips and elbows, bloat also have an environmental component, bloat is tied to conformation / weight as well.
> 
> ...


How do you find bloat in a family tree? It’s not recorded. Neither is pano.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Pano is another huge factor than can really set you back and have a genetic component. I think my 2 year old is finally done with it and he suffered horribly. 

You really got to do some leg work and digging around. These are things that people need to talk to breeders about and stop getting hung up on hip/elbow certifications and DM testing and calling it a day. Whenever I bought a pup, it was common for me to pass the pedigree around to people in the know. Often that was breeders on this forum.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do you find bloat in a family tree? It’s not recorded. Neither is pano.


You stalk breeders! Lol. 
There is a breeder that gets recommended a lot who has a high instance of Pano in their lines. I would never have known, except that I see a ton of their puppy owners on line.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I talk about temperament issues that would make an average owner dissatisfied. Then there are temperament issues that would cause a dog to wash. I did not present them as the same.
> 
> Did they xray your hips for the military or to play sports? If not, perhaps HD isn't necessary that big of an issue. When I talk about hip and elbow certifications, and the subjective meaning of the results, I spoke about a dog with a poor certification that was not dysplastic, not the other way around. Please reread my post.
> 
> ...


I don't advocate for breeders that don't certify hips, and I don't think I ever will. I will not ever tell some one new looking for a dog to go find breeders that don't or that it is ok. If you do advocate for not certifying hips so be. I think that is very wrong and you are not going to convince me otherwise. There are other issues yes, that doesn't diminish or make hip/elbow dysplasia not an issue. As for dm testing, there is information for and information that says it doesn't matter. I'm not going to tell someone new to go and wing it. If they find that no DM testing is something they are comfortable with, then that is their decision. Like I said I'm not going to take someone new and tell them to disregard it. I have said multiple times here what it means, and that there is other information on it. As for the female in question, I never said dogs with fair, normal, a2, or a 3 hips/elbows should not be considered. I have said and will say again, I do not believe dogs that don't have certification should be bred. If you want to say there are other things you think they should consider, then say that. What I don't agree with is you making the issues that I listed sound as if they are unimportant. As for the military and hips, no they do not get x-rayed. There are functional/flexibility test that someone with arthritic hips would struggle with. I don't see any information either that says it is anywhere near as common in humans as dogs. What I did read was doctors were disappointed in the success they were having at identifying it early.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I don't advocate for breeders that don't certify hips, and I don't think I ever will. I will not ever tell some one new looking for a dog to go find breeders that don't or that it is ok. If you do advocate for not certifying hips so be. I think that is very wrong and you are not going to convince me otherwise. There are other issues yes, that doesn't diminish or make hip/elbow dysplasia not an issue. As for dm testing, there is information for and information that says it doesn't matter. I'm not going to tell someone new to go and wing it. If they find that no DM testing is something they are comfortable with, then that is their decision. Like I said I'm not going to take someone new and tell them to disregard it. I have said multiple times here what it means, and that there is other information on it. As for the female in question, I never said dogs with fair, normal, a2, or a 3 hips/elbows should not be considered. I have said and will say again, I do not believe dogs that don't have certification should be bred. If you want to say there are other things you think they should consider, then say that. What I don't agree with is you making the issues that I listed sound as if they are unimportant. As for the military and hips, no they do not get x-rayed. There are functional/flexibility test that someone with arthritic hips would struggle with. I don't see any information either that says it is anywhere near as common in humans as dogs. What I did read was doctors were disappointed in the success they were having at identifying it early.


You are taking this way too personal. I do believe that there are things more important than hips and elbows and especially DM. You want your due respect for your experience and you are mistaking my difference of opinion as not according it. That is not accurate at all. By the same token, my years of a variety of experiences and accrued knowledge have substance and value too. I think that once you get past that, you will come to understand that the content of my comments is directed at the disservice this forum does as a collective whole to fixate on hips, elbows, and DM when a newbie comes onboard seeking breeder advice. There will be a cacophony of posts regarding these three points drowning out cries of bloat, hemangio, monorchids, ALLERGIES WITH A GENETIC COMPONENT and other serious health conditions known to run in lines as well as weak nerves, fear biting, excessive prey, total lack of aggression and a host of other problematic behavioral predispositions and let's just not get started on conformation faults.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Embark testing?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are taking this way too personal. I do believe that there are things more important than hips and elbows and especially DM. You want your due respect for your experience and you are mistaking my difference of opinion as not according it. That is not accurate at all. By the same token, my years of a variety of experiences and accrued knowledge have substance and value too. I think that once you get past that, you will come to understand that the content of my comments is directed at the disservice this forum does as a collective whole to fixate on hips, elbows, and DM when a newbie comes onboard seeking breeder advice. There will be a cacophony of posts regarding these three points drowning out cries of bloat, hemangio, monorchids, ALLERGIES WITH A GENETIC COMPONENT and other serious health conditions known to run in lines as well as weak nerves, fear biting, excessive prey, total lack of aggression and a host of other problematic behavioral predispositions and let's just not get started on conformation faults.


The thing is, finding out whether those things run a line takes a lot more digging and searching for answers. The answers to those issues don't often present themselves in a quick glance at the breeding pair or five minutes of research. Often times they take consulting experts on the lines. Someone who reaches that point should be reaching out and asking questions. The problem is a lot of people don't reach that point because they look at breeders with no health testing, no titles or jobs in the last three generations, and the super rare sable color working lines. The things I list are things I could tell someone to look for that eliminate a lot of terrible breeders. There are some good ones that also would fall, mostly from DM testing in my opinion. There are some bad ones that will still need to be filtered out, too. By and large however, I think by following those things I laid out, the pool of breeders you would be left with will be much better off. I think going outside of those things should be left for when you have learned more. By no means am I saying that those things are all you need to look at. To be frank, you'd have to write a book to cover every single scenario.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You want your due respect for your experience and you are mistaking my difference of opinion as not according it. That is not accurate at all. By the same token, my years of a variety of experiences and accrued knowledge have substance and value too


I can tell you we don't agree on everything, but that isn't something to keeps me up at night or leads me to think less of you. I trust you have a wealth of valuable knowledge and opinions. I think it is ultimately good for people to see different points of this conversation laid out. I think the real disagreement here is the level of knowledge we expect someone new here to have. I believe when you are learning its easier to start off with a simple list of yes and no. As you learn more you can consider the nuances.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Embark testing?


I think Embark testing is a plus, something that shows a breeder going above and beyond the minimum.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> The thing is, finding out whether those things run a line takes a lot more digging and searching for answers. The answers to those issues don't often present themselves in a quick glance at the breeding pair or five minutes of research. Often times they take consulting experts on the lines. Someone who reaches that point should be reaching out and asking questions. The problem is a lot of people don't reach that point because they look at breeders with no health testing, no titles or jobs in the last three generations, and the super rare sable color working lines. The things I list are things I could tell someone to look for that eliminate a lot of terrible breeders. There are some good ones that also would fall, mostly from DM testing in my opinion. There are some bad ones that will still need to be filtered out, too. By and large however, I think by following those things I laid out, the pool of breeders you would be left with will be much better off. I think going outside of those things should be left for when you have learned more. By no means am I saying that those things are all you need to look at. To be frank, you'd have to write a book to cover every single scenario.


I don't disagree with this at all but I have bought my share of dogs and I don't have breeder loyalty. That's not to say that I would not or have not repeat bought from a breeder. It means that I think it is waaaayyyyy too easy to come to this board and either post a pedigree or PM a pedigree to gather much of the information that I suggested that people look at. IMO, it is better to focus on two or three breeders and dig deeper than to investigate 150 breeders that all hip/elbow certify DM test.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't disagree with this at all but I have bought my share of dogs and I don't have breeder loyalty. That's not to say that I would not or have not repeat bought from a breeder. It means that I think it is waaaayyyyy too easy to come to this board and either post a pedigree or PM a pedigree to gather much of the information that I suggested that people look at. IMO, it is better to focus on two or three breeders and dig deeper than to investigate 150 breeders that all hip/elbow certify DM test.


You are going to start with 150 breeders. It’s the how you get from that 150 to 3.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> You are going to start with 150 breeders. It’s the how you get from that 150 to 3.


Not if your major, and often on this forum one's only, criteria is hip/ elbow certifications and DM testing (as recommended by many on here). So a newbie who saw a few appealing things on websites were chased away from a breeder or two or three, for not doing DM testing (and not discussing it further)  , another breeder who does not have certifications posted on their website (instead of advising to ask and discuss), and then they go back to square one and look for breeders who do hips, elbows and DM. I can't tell you how many times I sat slackjawed on this forum watching that scenario unfold. So an OP went from three breeders to 150 (of course that is an exaggeration).

My point is that breeders that certify hips and elbows and test for DM are a dime a dozen and easy to find. What is hard to find is a breeder that is producing the temperament that one wants in the package that one wants that fits the written breed standard and also does health testing. Newbies need to understand that there is no guarantees on health regardless of health testing which leads us to good warranties and good warranties are often overlooked during these discussions too.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not if your major, and often on this forum one's only, criteria is hip/ elbow certifications and DM testing (as recommended by many on here). So a newbie who saw a few appealing things on websites were chased away from a breeder or two or three, for not doing DM testing (and not discussing it further)  , another breeder who does not have certifications posted on their website (instead of advising to ask and discuss), and then they go back to square one and look for breeders who do hips, elbows and DM. I can't tell you how many times I sat slackjawed on this forum watching that scenario unfold. So an OP went from three breeders to 150 (of course that is an exaggeration).
> 
> My point is that breeders that certify hips and elbows and test for DM are a dime a dozen and easy to find. What is hard to find is a breeder that is producing the temperament that one wants in the package that one wants that fits the written breed standard and also does health testing. Newbies need to understand that there is no guarantees on health regardless of health testing which leads us to good warranties and good warranties are often overlooked during these discussions too.


You don’t think they should start by looking at health tester and titled stock?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> You don’t think they should start by looking at health tester and titled stock?


No, I think they should look for what they like first and once they have selected a few breeders from hundreds, then they can get down to the nitty gritty.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Maybe the question puppy buyers should be asking the breeders who don't test for DM is: 

If they care about this breed why aren't they contributing to the data and on going studies (via testing) needed to help in the research of DM? I certainly don't understand it. Research is about finding answers to the unknown that hopefully, help a breed. Breeders who don't contribute to these studies aren't doing the breed any favors.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> I do support vision testing as well. I know in Canada at least, several decades back vision in GSDs was an issue. *It was not uncommon for 6-7 year old dogs to be losing their eye sight. It was all lumped under cataracts, and was common to hear that GSDs always start to go blind at that age.*
> On the OFA site you can find a listing of breed appropriate health tests. New dog owners should be using that as a guide when looking at breeders.
> 
> Something I don't like to see is breeders cashing in on past titles. Nothing on their breeding stock, just bragging about past history.


That's likely Pannus?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> That's likely Pannus?


Probably. That cloudy/filmy look. It was rampant through the 80s and 90s. Better testing has made a huge difference.


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