# Dog has bitten kids



## paulbcfc (May 1, 2018)

Hi there

Just come across this forum - wish I had done earlier it has loads of great info and opinions on it!

Our GS is 3 1/2 years old - has always been aggressive with strangers and lunges at tractors and people when being walked - we do have a large area where nobody ever goes where he can be walked no problem. He has never shown any aggression to any of the family so I have had no problem managing it.

We have 4 kids (aged 9-15) - a few weeks ago he snapped at my eldest and caused a mark but no puncturing of the skin. 

After discussing with missus we decided to give him another chance but if we are not there he has to stay in crate

On Sunday (missus gone away for weekend) I was in the toilet and he snapped at one of the boys which caused blood to be drawn. It resulted in a trip to hospital but has not needed stitches.

We are all distraught - other than this you could not ask for a more loyal and loveable family pet.

The other half wants him putting to sleep as he could never be rehomed. She does not want to take any chance that one of the kids could be injured properly by him. 

I want the chance to get a dog behaviour professional to see if he can help him and there is a recommended one near us who looks good on his website but the missus is not buying into it.

I have established that both times he went for the kids they were touching him and he has always been anxious - I am sure there will be no problem if I am in the room and the kids are told not to touch him at all unless I am there although since Sunday he has not been left for a moment with the kids without me being in the room - no problems with him at all!

We are visiting the vets with him tomorrow to get their opinion - he isn't going to make a good impression as he hates going to the vets with a passion and acts like a loopy dog so he isn't going to make a good impression.

Would you try and argue the case for the behavioural expert to try him or has he had his chance and overstepped the mark and is it time to let him go - I don't want to lose him but can see where she is coming from with regard the kids!


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Speaking from experience a number of years ago, perhaps a different perspective that a breeder gave me would help. What is his quality of life if he is so anxious that he cannot allow some of the humans he lives with to touch him? What does he feel 24 hours a day if he is so fearful that a touch from someone within his own household causes him to launch into a defensive attack? There are degrees of genetically weak nerves, and behavior modification can help control behavior in mild to moderate cases, but not the underlying genetic problem. With more severe cases, you are dealing with a dog that would require absolutely error free management. There are very few mortals who could guarantee that approach to living with such a dog--you have discovered that already.
I wish you the best. Both you and your dog arrived here through no fault and life has brought you one of its very difficult decisions.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Oh boy, I'm a Mom and this is scary. 
I can see why your other half feels this way.

I would think some of it depends on provocation/situation,
i.e. if your kid was stroking him gently vs grabbing playfully at him...

Thankfully your kids are older - at that age it's possible they can be taught to avoid the dog's Triggers... if they are predictable triggers.

But if his behavior is unpredictable and doesn't seem to have any reason (like, he is just in a cranky mood that day) then I would be scared to live with that dog. The other depressing thing is that your family may have become afraid of the dog and nobody wants to have him around, and that's not a good life for anybody.

But if the choice was between putting my dog to sleep, or giving him a chance to live ... 
I'd vote to at least see what the behavioral expert has to say.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I guess my thoughts are how do the kids feel? 

If you are going to try and keep him I would definitely get him used to a muzzle. These sound like warning bites. and although a basket muzzle hurts when it hits you, you remove the possibility of anything more serious.

Get a good trainer or behaviorist and go from there if the family is all on board. Have a vet check for any blood abnormalities or pain, and as was mentioned consider the dogs quality of life. Also check his eyes.

On a personal note, kids are my line in the sand. They are supposed to be companion animals. A dog willing to bite a child, particularly a child they have lived with all their lives, has no place. If this were my dog, baring extenuating circumstances, the deed would already be done.

I wish you and your family peace . It sounds like you will do what is best. Please keep us updated and stick around. Lots of info and resources here, no matter what your decision.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

OP....nice lengthy description....except for this small detail....Exactly how were your kids touching the dog??---Just petting him?---Did YOU witness this innocent "touching" by your kids ??---Or is this just "touching" your kids version of what happened ?? Has the dog always gotten along great with your kids until recently ?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Pets should not bite children. That is a given. But is there any chance they were teasing or mistreating him? Has he given warnings before that were ignored? Dogs protect themselves. They don’t start out biting, it escalates from something else.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I would have the vet run a full thyroid panel, as well as doing xrays on his hips and spine. Make sure there isn’t a medical reason or pain issue that could be causing this, if only to put your mind at ease. Is he intact? If he is, I would have him neutered and see if that helps. I know that will not be a popular opinion, and neutering is typically not what I would jump to suggesting, either. But I have a fearful, weak nerved dog who became handler aggressive at 3 years old and neutering helped. It’s not magic, and it’s not a suggestion that will help if training and management are also not in place.

Barring something medical or hormonal being a cause, I can see why your wife does not want to risk keeping the dog. And I cannot say I blame her. I would keep the dog completely separated from the kids for now. No access, period. I agree with muzzle training him. Also, if he is allowed on furniture, that would end now if he were my dog. I would try NILIF (nothing in life is free). He works for his resources from now on. He sits and waits before being released to eat. He sits and waits before being released to go outdoors. He does obedience before any affection or rewards are given to him. Is he getting enough exercise and mental stimulation every day? If you are going to keep him, I would get a good trainer in... one who really understands GSDs and aggressive dogs, in general. This dog will always require a lot of management. I’m sorry this happened.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

More info is needed:
What (if any) training have you already done with the dog? Who handled the dog during training, and what ongoing proofing do you do? Describe the training method and what you accomplished during it, if you can. What's the dog's daily routine? (E.g, free roaming, do-whatever, or is there there structured routine -- with leash walks in proper form, training/working time, etc.?)

What exactly are this dog's anxiety triggers? Is it always anxious about nearly all stimuli? Or just the kids? Did anything prompt it (e.g., were kids allowed to hurt/torment the dog when they were younger), or has it always been anxious around the family? Have you seen any of these episodes happen, or are the kids describing them? Sometimes there's a lead up of growls, lip curls, or hard stares that were ignored, prior to the first bite -- describing those is sometimes helpful, as they're really part of the bite history, as the dog was sometimes telegraphing something prior to the bite.


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## paulbcfc (May 1, 2018)

Many thanks for all the fantastic feedback.

These incidents have been "one offs" and for the rest of the time he seems happy around the house interacting fine with my other dog and the kids. I honestly don't know what has triggered him. I am hoping that the vet and if I can persuade the other half to go down the route - the behaviour specialist can provide answers to.

The kids all still want to keep him - he is a great family pet normally - but they have been understandably wary of him since Sunday and under instructions not to touch him at all unless I am with them - he has been fine with them.

I did not witness either incident but they say they were just petting him and I have no reason to suggest they were doing anything rougher with him or teasing him - they are normally very good with animals - but I did not see what they were doing first hand. He has always got on fine with them and still seems to although he has only been in contact with them when I have been breathing over him.

He is terrible at the vets and does need muzzling when he goes there otherwise they wont see him - he is the worse patient imaginable and I do dread taking him there! If we decide to keep him I will ask the vet to check for pain and blood abnormalities and to run a full thyroid panel, as well as doing xrays on his hips and spine. I think there is a chance he has been in pain sometimes but he doesn't really show it and normally seems fine but I have avoided taking him to vets unless it necessary as it really is such hard work - I know that something wrong on my part - he has still never shown any aggression to anyone in the family before this though.

I think the deed would have been done if the other half was here - she has been away on a weekend break with friends - first time she has gone away with friends for 10 years and think she wishes she not left me in charge lol! She is back tonight and the dog is visiting vet at 9.15 in the morning.

Dog has not been neutered - would this make a big difference with him?

The trainer I am looking at working with if given the opportunity specialises in aggressive dogs and looks good from that part.

Dog went to training school and is obedient and recalls etc. During day he goes for a walk in morning - is left to his own devices with our other dog (both get on fine) as we all work - goes out for walk when back from work - lounges round house normally goes for third walk later - he I normally only crated when we have someone round as he goes loopy when visitors come but that is something we are fine managing.

Once again thanks for all your input and for not being judgemental!


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

If you decide to continue managing him, please consider giving him prozac or other types of meds that help with animal anxiety. I hope your family the best of luck!


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry you are going through this. As a parent, I have to say that kids come first, but I can imagine few decisions that would be harder or more heart breaking to make. I would want to find out exactly what led up to the bites: were the kids doing anything that could have provoked the dog, pulling on ears or tail, sitting on him and he has sore joints, messing with his food or toys, ect? If it were me, I would probably consult with an experienced trainer or behaviorist first just to get an outsider's perspective, and to feel like I did everything possible. Also, I would go to the vet to rule out any medical issues. However, you and your family need to feel safe in your own home. If you do have to let him go, remember him for the good times, and try not to feel guilty. Please let us know what happens.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'd really be getting tests done at the vet. If is a one off, then maybe something medically is going on. How were the kids touching is important too. Jumping or rough housing doesnt make it ok, but says a lot. 
I'd also want to get him with a trainer that understands aggression and the breed.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Have you contacted the "training school" where you sent him? Do you remember the name of it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A 3.5 year old dog can do serious damage to a child or an adult. It sounds like the dog is communicating his displeasure to the kids, using bite inhibition. It could also be that he is escalating. I would do a complete veterinary exam, checking thyroid, vitamin B, and anything else that might account for lower tolerance or aggression. Then, I probably would go with an experienced behaviorist to get their take on the dog. But the kids are not mine. You know the dog and have the children's protection as your first priority. You and your wife's call.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Difficult situation to say the least. Here's my take, for what it's worth to you... it is not at all normal or acceptable for an adult dog to attack, however minimally, it's own. Something is wrong medically, or something is wrong neurologically of genetically. If you don't find something easily identifiable by the blood work, the next step is MRI, which will indicate issues, if present, that will require very expensive surgery or treatment that may or may not allow you to ever know the dog you do now... 

It's sad, but sometimes the best thing is not just about the dog...


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## paulbcfc (May 1, 2018)

Thanks everyone once again for their input

We visited the vet who as a mother herself said my beautiful Toby could never be trusted. A second vet gave same opinion and having to take partners views into account he was pts 

He died on my partners lap. I am so gutted and upset.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

paulbcfc said:


> Thanks everyone once again for their input
> 
> We visited the vet who as a mother herself said my beautiful Toby could never be trusted. A second vet gave same opinion and having to take partners views into account he was pts
> 
> He died on my partners lap. I am so gutted and upset.


Sad as it is,it does sound like you done the right thing for everyone's safety.
It doesn't bare thinking about what could have happened if something went wrong.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I cannot imagine the emotions going through something like this. The nightmare has ended for everyone. I know the sun will come out again.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

OP----As long as you know..in your mind....you did every thing you could...then all you can do is move forward one day at a time.....the pain does lessen as days turn into weeks and....weeks into months. I don't know you... but I truly feel for what you're going through right now. By seeing this thread through to the end.....you've done something which is very very rare on this forum.........My eyes are getting blurry as I'm typing....my heart goes out to you and yours.


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## paulbcfc (May 1, 2018)

Shanes' Dad said:


> OP----As long as you know..in your mind....you did every thing you could...then all you can do is move forward one day at a time......



This is the problem - I don't know if I did. Last think (I perhaps naively) felt this morning when Toby came out in the garden picked up his ball and put it in the truck like he does is that when I got home I would open the back door and all that would be there would be his ball.

I thought they would say let look into him and see if he been in pain speak to therapist see if there is anything they can do rather than "your decision but if you want me to be honest with four kids in house if he was mine I would have already put him to sleep" and that if he has already bitten which in his mind has got rid of his problem he will remember that and do it again - after discussing it with my partner the risk of any injury to the kids was too much - but I still think he could have been brought round and the guilt is overwhelming seeing my healthy boy killed. :-(


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Take the dog to the trainer that deals with aggressive dogs. It’s important to assess whether the problem is genetic or created or combination of both. It’s impor to assess if your family has ability to correct behaviors if they were created. Sometimes, a home is not a good fit for certain dogs, because of inability to handle the dog, or lack of knowledge, or persistent beliefs or actions that are not beneficial. Sometimes the dog isn’t wired right, ( though I have seen this infrequently,as opposed to behaviors usually learned or allowed), anyway go to the trainer and be fair to both yourself and the dog. 
I have had too many dogs brought to me for aggression,where the owners have said the Internet folks thought dog should be put to sleep. Often, we are able to reverse the problem, and if not we usually can place the dog in environment where the dog does real well.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I'm sorry this happened but I figured he would be PTS. I thought from the first post it looked like the dog had been allowed lunge aggressivly at people and tractors when walked. Was any training given to stiffle this and by whom? Our female GSD is always under contol and inappropriate agression is always nipped in the bud. Even appropriate aggression is nipped in the bud after the alarm has been given and noted. Honestly, we don't have kids and don't know any kids. We live way out on a cattle ranch. I had a strong impulse to offer to take the dog myself knowing his bite history. We would train him like a military soldier at bootcamp. I feel sorry for this dog. Oh well, too late now.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

paulbcfc said:


> Thanks everyone once again for their input
> 
> We visited the vet who as a mother herself said my beautiful Toby could never be trusted. A second vet gave same opinion and having to take partners views into account he was pts
> 
> He died on my partners lap. I am so gutted and upset.


I'm so sorry for your loss. What a hard thing, and I'm just so sorry that your family is going through that. Be kind to yourselves.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

It is always easy to second-guess everything. Please be kind to yourself and your family and let it go. You did what you had to do for everyone's safety. There will always be what-ifs and people saying that they could have done better. Don't listen to that, and don't let it get you down. You made the best decision for your situation and your dog. I am very sorry for your loss.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

paulbcfc said:


> Thanks everyone once again for their input
> 
> We visited the vet who as a mother herself said my beautiful Toby could never be trusted. A second vet gave same opinion and having to take partners views into account he was pts
> 
> He died on my partners lap. I am so gutted and upset.


I am very sorry that it came to this but please remember that for his whole life you loved him. That is more then many dogs ever get. 
I wish you and your family peace.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can tell by your post how much you cared for your dog, and I know you wouldn't have done it if you weren't truly concerned for the well-being of your family. Try not to be too hard on yourself. I'm sure that you and your family did the best for him that you knew how. Even if he could have been re-trained or managed, it would probably always be hard to trust him, and with a bite history, he couldn't easily or ethically be rehomed. He was with you and your wife at the end, and it was peaceful, which is better than some alternatives. I wish you all the best.


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## paulbcfc (May 1, 2018)

Thanks to those of you who have taken the time to write a message of support - it is strange how messages from strangers can provide some comfort whilst we are going through the worst time ever


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

paulbcfc said:


> Thanks everyone once again for their input
> 
> We visited the vet who as a mother herself said my beautiful Toby could never be trusted. A second vet gave same opinion and having to take partners views into account he was pts
> 
> He died on my partners lap. I am so gutted and upset.



I'm so sorry you have had to go through this. You will need wisdom and sensitivity with respect your children, as they also experience the loss and go through the grieving process.


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## AwayFromHere (Jun 30, 2013)

paulbcfc said:


> This is the problem - I don't know if I did. Last think (I perhaps naively) felt this morning when Toby came out in the garden picked up his ball and put it in the truck like he does is that when I got home I would open the back door and all that would be there would be his ball.
> 
> I thought they would say let look into him and see if he been in pain speak to therapist see if there is anything they can do rather than "your decision but if you want me to be honest with four kids in house if he was mine I would have already put him to sleep" and that if he has already bitten which in his mind has got rid of his problem he will remember that and do it again - after discussing it with my partner the risk of any injury to the kids was too much - but I still think he could have been brought round and the guilt is overwhelming seeing my healthy boy killed. :-(



I am so very sorry. Years ago, I found this forum because we had a (I think) 3 year old young black, male GSD we brought home at 10 weeks that had a high startle response, self harming, OCD, and animal aggression from the get go. We had no idea what we were getting into after having adopted our wonderful but neurotic female white GSD. We got him from an east coast breeder that didn't warn us about having bred him for high prey drive and working, and when people on this site reviewed his pedigree, mentioned serious issues in his lineage. He attacked our terrier twice resulting in ER visits and serious injuries, bit my husband on the nose (who was his person), and almost killed my cat (another ER trip with serious injuries, and I got bit by the cat in the process through my achilles tendon). We couldn't have house guests. We don't have children, so we spent years and so much money on trainers of every kind of advertised method, including multiple aggression trainers. We contacted rescues around the state and country. Eventually at age 5 1/2 he broke his chain and got a hold of a dog out walking with two kids, and we put him to sleep that same day. I don't know that I ever updated here. He was my husband's best friend, and the sun rose and set on my husband for that dog. We actually had to go back to that clinic for the first time today regarding our new puppy, and it hurt after 3 years. We think of how different our lives would be with and without him. There's not always a happy ending. There's isn't always another trainer, a rescue, or the right way. I am so sorry you went through this. I will say over time, we had a lot of relief after grieving. Sending you strength.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

You made the best decision for your family in the worst of circumstances. My condolences on your loss; be kind to yourself.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Take the dog to the trainer that deals with aggressive dogs. It’s important to assess whether the problem is genetic or created or combination of both. It’s impor to assess if your family has ability to correct behaviors if they were created. Sometimes, a home is not a good fit for certain dogs, because of inability to handle the dog, or lack of knowledge, or persistent beliefs or actions that are not beneficial. Sometimes the dog isn’t wired right, ( though I have seen this infrequently,as opposed to behaviors usually learned or allowed), anyway go to the trainer and be fair to both yourself and the dog.
> I have had too many dogs brought to me for aggression,where the owners have said the Internet folks thought dog should be put to sleep. Often, we are able to reverse the problem, and if not we usually can place the dog in environment where the dog does real well.


I think this was great advice.


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## Mareesey (Aug 25, 2016)

I can't imagine how you are feeling but I know every time I have had to make the decision to pts (even when they are very sick) I always ask myself if I could have done more. You loved him and that meant the world to him.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I am so sorry. I know that was probably one of the hardest decisions you ever had to make. Hard as it was, you would never have forgiven yourself if one of your kids had been severely injured. You are a kind, loving person, with a good heart. I pray your heart heals soon. You tried your best. At the end of the day, that is all any of us can do. Rest assured that Toby knew he was loved.

Hugs!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You did what you felt was right. It was not out of anger, but to protect the children. I am sorry that you are going through this. It is a terrible grief when we put a dog down that is young and healthy. All I can say is that you should tell yourself that you did what had to be done, your boy is not suffering, and he will not hurt any other children. 

I am really sorry.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

I have had to put down an aggressive dog once. He was a lovely Doberman with more demons than he could realistically handle. I wasn't very attached to him, had only had him a short while, but it was still hard to sit a rub his head and hope that through his snarls he could hear me tell him he was a good boy. There is always that little "what if" that lingers in your head when you put one down for any reason. You can't help that. But just take one step at a time, your heart will heal.

I have seen dogs love....really LOVE.... a sorry owner that could care less about them. You cared about your boy, so there is no doubt that he loved you and he knew that he was loved. Loving a dog is the greatest act of kindness, its the one thing that dogs desire most, even those that are haunted by whatever darkness has been created in their mind. You did that for him. 

It will get easier.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I went through a dog unraveling at over age 3. I had to make that same decision. If you care to read, just to know others have dealt with it too, and to provide you with some comfort here is my thread. People will tell you sight unseen what could have been done, should have been done..but, an unprovoked bite on a known child is just not normal, or safe. Well, no bite is truly unprovoked. However whatever imagined thing provoked a dog to bite a family member merely petting it, is just not normal :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/727378-what-happened-3.html


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Genalis_mom said:


> I have had to put down an aggressive dog once. He was a lovely Doberman with more demons than he could realistically handle. I wasn't very attached to him, had only had him a short while, but it was still hard to sit a rub his head and hope that through his snarls he could hear me tell him he was a good boy. There is always that little "what if" that lingers in your head when you put one down for any reason. You can't help that. But just take one step at a time, your heart will heal.
> 
> I have seen dogs love....really LOVE.... a sorry owner that could care less about them. You cared about your boy, so there is no doubt that he loved you and he knew that he was loved. Loving a dog is the greatest act of kindness, its the one thing that dogs desire most, even those that are haunted by whatever darkness has been created in their mind. You did that for him.
> 
> It will get easier.


This ^^^ Well Said !


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I went through exactly the same situation about 30 years ago. It still aches. But I learned a lot and I do better because I know better. You did the right thing. You have to protect your children. If one get mauled your pain will be much harder to deal with. Who knows what you prevented.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

OP, I'm sorry for your loss! 
Please don't beat yourself up.

The alternative was a life of Eternal Vigilance - crating, hovering, and wondering about if/when the next bite would happen. 
As much as I love animals, I honestly don't think I could live that way for years, and I also doubt how successful I would have been.
It would take an inhuman amount of carefulness.

Rehoming could also have taken quite a long time - finding someone who would be willing to take on the risk.

re Evaluation by Trainer - I was in favor of this, but who knows? It could just have dragged out the progress by a few weeks, and end with the same conclusion. Plus, it sounded like your kids are good with animals already - so it sounds like there were no easy fixes.

Take care.


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