# HELP!! Our GSD bit a child!!



## Sadiesmama

Please, any help or opinions would be appreciated. We have a 11 mo. old male GSD that we have owned since he was born. If you look at other posts from me, he was the result of an oopsie litter our female had. Sadie is now spayed!! Cisco is a male pup that we chose to keep. He is my baby. We had an issue with him growling at our son when he came near Cisco's food. We started Cisco and Sadie in training at a local facility last December. Mainly to work on this food aggression and because we knew that GSD need training. We are told that Cisco is an insecure dog. We have been working with him to help on his socialization. OK, so that was a little bit of background. Last week, we had the 2 dogs in our fenced in backyard. My daughter and son had a friend over and we were all on the deck. The dogs were acting fine. Let the little girl pet them, etc. The little girl turned to open the latch on the gate to go get something, and out of nowhere, Cisco jumped at her and grabbed her upper arm as she was turned to go out the gate. I was horrified. I had my son take him straight to his kennel while I dealt with the wound. I wanted to cry. There were welts from every tooth and his lower canine tore a piece of skin off. We think because she pulled her arm away. Anyways, I'm just thankful that it wasn't worse. This was such a surprise since we never expected this from him. He loves our kids. Please know that I never leave the kids alone in the same room as the dogs since you just never know what can happen. I was there and I still don't know why it happened. I've had a lot of people give me possible reasons, but I just don't know. I was so torn up and ready to take him to be euthanized. I was crying. I spoke with the girls mom and she was very understanding. She doesn't think it was done as aggression because unfortunately they have had experience with an aggressive dog bite. I just don't have any faith in him anymore. I'm so afraid of this happening again. We have kids and they constantly have friends over. Right now, we put Cisco in his crate when anyone else is over but that is so not the best situation for him. He is an inside dog and has been out in the house with us for his whole life. We are still continuing his training weekly but are working with the trainer to find another home for him. I want him to go to a home with GS experience and one that does not have kids. If it was just me and my husband, I wouldn't even be thinking of this. But everytime I look at my kids, I think about what would happen if he turned on them. I feel like I'm giving up on him (my baby) but am so afraid that it could happen again. Please, any advise would be most appreciated. 
A little more background. We have 3 kids ages 4, 7 and 15. We have the 2 shepherds. Sadie is 3 and spayed and Cisco is 11 mo. and he is neutered. 
HELP Please!


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## gsdraven

Sadiesmama said:


> HELP Please!


So, are you looking for help to rehome him?

Normally, I would suggest a rescue but they may not post him for you because of his bite history.

Honestly, rehoming him to a house without children is probably in the best interest of everyone. If you don't trust him then you won't be able to help him get to a place where he is as stable as he can be.


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## LaRen616

gsdraven said:


> Normally, I would suggest a rescue but they may not post him for you because of his bite history.
> 
> Honestly, rehoming him to a house without children is probably in the best interest of everyone. If you don't trust him then you won't be able to help him get to a place where he is as stable as he can be.


:thumbup:


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## CarrieJ

> Honestly, rehoming him to a house without children is probably in the best interest of everyone. If you don't trust him then you won't be able to help him get to a place where he is as stable as he can be.


I'm leaning to agree with this.
He's a young dog, he's pushed the boundaries and actually violated them by biting a kid and shattered your confidence. 

I'm glad you didn't euthanize him. There mostly likely would be a better opportunity for him in a quieter home with some strict NILF/structure/boundary/leadership roles.

Good luck and I glad that the child wasn't too badly hurt.


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## selzer

If you trainer thinks the dog lacks confidence, the structure of NILIF might be helpful. I think that continuing training while looking for another home is a good idea. I would work on exercises to build his confidence too, and ensure he is kenneled whenever you have other kids around. 

Sorry this is happening. I am glad that the child's parents are being understanding. 

It may take time to find anyone willing to take him. Keep him in classes. He may settle down quite a bit in the next year or so.


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## Silvermoon

Any chance that he was "herding / protecting" the child because she was leaving approved (in his mind) boundries?


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## Coastie01

Silvermoon said:


> Any chance that he was "herding / protecting" the child because she was leaving approved (in his mind) boundries?


I dont think that is the case. If it was you would ahve atleast seen signs of his "herding" before. If he is an insecure dog he may have been startled by a quick movement and reacted with a fear bite but that is just speculation.


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## RebelGSD

It may be some unfortunate herding attempt. Also, some dogs that are fearful nip at people leaving their space.

In order to keep everyone safe, I suggest the soft fabric muzzle (you can purchase it at Petsmart). He can eat and drink with it but cannot cause any harm. Make sure that you loop it behind his collar so that he cannot get it off. I have used this very successfully with dogs that were not trustworthy, for example in obedience classes or when managing a foster with dog aggression. They get used to it. It is much more comfortable for dog and people than the basket muzzles. It will give you peace of mind.


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## ken k

Silvermoon said:


> Any chance that he was "herding / protecting" the child because she was leaving approved (in his mind) boundries?


That's what I was thinking, Glad the child is ok


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## Lilie

I think working with your trainer to find another home for him is the absolute best thing to do for you and your pup.


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## Kris10

RebelGSD said:


> It may be some unfortunate herding attempt. Also, some dogs that are fearful nip at people leaving their space.
> 
> In order to keep everyone safe, I suggest the soft fabric muzzle (you can purchase it at Petsmart). He can eat and drink with it but cannot cause any harm. Make sure that you loop it behind his collar so that he cannot get it off. I have used this very successfully with dogs that were not trustworthy, for example in obedience classes or when managing a foster with dog aggression. They get used to it. It is much more comfortable for dog and people than the basket muzzles. It will give you peace of mind.


This is what I was thinking too (about the herding attempt). 
The muzzle sounds like a good idea to do right away for safety, whatever the reason for the nip.


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## wolfstraum

I am very glad that the child was not bitten more severely, and that her mother is so understanding! You are very very lucky! If she had sued, in this state, most home owner's insurance companies would insist that Cisco would have to be put down...

I am of the very strong belief that indiscriminate breeding results in many such insecure and weak nerved dogs - and this is why so many people get slammed on here for wanting to breed. I applaud you for spaying and neutering these two dogs. I am sorry for your heartache at losing a dog you love, but the fact that your trainer has told you that the dog has nerve issues makes it imperative that he be placed in an experienced home so I hope you are very careful where he goes and it is somewhere you can keep track of him and that you know how he is in the future.

This was not a 'nip' - possibly a prey bite - possibly a reaction to a raised arm/perceived threatening posture....

Lee


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## carmspack

A herding dog is a very very confident dog.
This is not a herding bite -- I don't know where this notion has come from but have heard it a bit lately. 

A dog that is nervous will often bite you as you turn your back. Face them and they back off , you can keep distance , because they are fearful and it is flight or fight, flight being easier . Turn your back and they get bite you out of stress . Know one person who had their calf muscle ripped , exposed to the bone . 

Any dog with any potential for aggression must be bred for and with sound stable nerves . 

If this were my child I would not be understanding , sorry . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Zoeys mom

Your dog didn't bite anyone he simply said hey you your not leaving come here....they can't exactly talk you know. A herding nip has nothing to do with confidence or lack there of...it was the attempt of your dog to redirect her direction- not aggression and not fear! I think everyone is freaking out too much here. Bites from fear or aggression leave more than a welt- the little girl would have been bleeding and noticeably injured. I have a GSD that can not be around kids period because she will bite....really bite which means she is crated AT ALL TIMES when kids are over. She loves my kids but not other people's and I don't blame her j/k

If he is your baby accept his limits and prevent him from acting out by crating or gating him away from young guests


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## wyominggrandma

Sorry, to me the dog commited the gravest thing a dog can do, bit a human. It is all great to make excuses as to why he did it: nervous, herding, protective of his family,thoughts of his space being threatened, the excuses can go on and on, but the bottom line is he bit a human for no conceivable reason and a child at that who had been in the backyard playing with your children.
My opinion will not be one liked by many, but the dog should be euthanized. Period.
Even giving the dog to someone else who might have experience with a bithing GSD or any dog that bites is all great and dandy, but if and when that person gets bit by the dog, or his family or friends, then they might pass the dog to someone else and so on and so on. Or heaven forbid, give him to a no kill shelter and not tell about his history and they send him home to a family where another person or child gets bit and so it goes.
The best thing to do for the dog is for you to do the best for him, euthanize him and then you don't have to worry what might be happening to him down the road. You will never be able to control him being given away to someone else or being locked in a kennel or on a chain, especially if he bites again. I would rather be with the dog being euthanized by a needle than being shot or abused by another owner. Once you give the dog to someone else, you have no recourse if he is given away again and again no matter how many promises you might get.
I know many will disagree with this, but I have been there, I have been bit by dogs that I was not given a history for when trying to help them or help the owners. I have seen dogs given to no kill shelters, not be told of the history and the dogs is rehomed and then bites again. 
No excuses for any dog to bite a human, Period.


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## MicheleMarie

try a behavioral trainer? my puppy is great around kids but since he is a puppy if a kid walks in excited and nervous and runs and hides it just gets the puppy more riled up. i've only had one kid pull this instinct out of him where he barks and barks and it's because he was screaming and running and hiding.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm glad the bite wasn't more serious and the girl & mom were understanding.

I agree with continuing with the trainer, however, you've got a catch 22 here, you want him to be social with your kids friends but who wants to let their kids be guinea pigs?

I don't think you have (but I very well could be wrong), that you have to fear for your own kids safety, he's obviously been brought up with them since birth, is comfortable with them.

I like the idea of a muzzle, get a basket muzzle and when your kids have friends over, muzzle him. 

Good luck with whatever you decide, I'm also all for if your going to rehome him, do it with someone who has no kids, and can manage him..


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## robinhuerta

This is one of those subjects that teeters on a fine line......
What the dog did...nip, bite, grab..whatever...did not do so, because it was "thinking" I must stop this person from leaving.....
This young dog bit for other reasons.....why?..(fear, dominance??)...I wasn't there, so to speculate is not fair.
Either *choose* to keep the young dog knowing what the possibilities of aggression are & *seek proper training*, keep the dog in a secure confined kennel or crate when outsiders are around....or surrender the dog to authorities, or last.... yes....euthanize it.
*ALL *dogs have the potential to bite..(period)....the idea, that *any* dog that bites a human should be destroyed is wrong....jmo

I want to add.....child aggression needs to be addressed seriously when considering your choices, IF there would be a next time...the situation could be much worse.


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## Samba

I wasn't there to see it so really don't know why it happened. Obviously, your dog should not be with children. If other people's children are at my house, my dogs are not out and about them except in a supervised "visit with the dog" situation where everything is watched and it is the focus of all involved. 

One of my early GSDs would try to move and take care of children. She would grab them to stop rowdy behavior. I didn't consider this attacking the children, but it would never go over well with those not acquainted with the dog who felt it was a responsibility to look after children. I learned from watching her that something that came out of her sense of responsibility and "rightness" could go badly for her, so she was not allowed to be amongst playing children who were not my own. OF course, mine learned to mind her! 

I don't know why I do not see all bites as such a gigantic deal. There are different types of bites and for different reasons. I know many will not understand this. Maybe I have been around dogs too long. They have teeth. People often ask if my dog bites... I always answer that he has teeth. It can always happen. 

Once had a dog who was not a soldier. He never bit anyone, but it was obvious that he had weaker nerves and was not as solid and stable as one would want. He really never got ad lib being about privileges with strangers or in social situations This was for others protection and for his.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Sorry, to me the dog commited the gravest thing a dog can do, bit a human. It is all great to make excuses as to why he did it: nervous, herding, protective of his family,thoughts of his space being threatened, the excuses can go on and on, but the bottom line is he bit a human for no conceivable reason and a child at that who had been in the backyard playing with your children.
> My opinion will not be one liked by many, but the dog should be euthanized. Period.
> Even giving the dog to someone else who might have experience with a bithing GSD or any dog that bites is all great and dandy, but if and when that person gets bit by the dog, or his family or friends, then they might pass the dog to someone else and so on and so on. Or heaven forbid, give him to a no kill shelter and not tell about his history and they send him home to a family where another person or child gets bit and so it goes.
> The best thing to do for the dog is for you to do the best for him, euthanize him and then you don't have to worry what might be happening to him down the road. You will never be able to control him being given away to someone else or being locked in a kennel or on a chain, especially if he bites again. I would rather be with the dog being euthanized by a needle than being shot or abused by another owner. Once you give the dog to someone else, you have no recourse if he is given away again and again no matter how many promises you might get.
> I know many will disagree with this, but I have been there, I have been bit by dogs that I was not given a history for when trying to help them or help the owners. I have seen dogs given to no kill shelters, not be told of the history and the dogs is rehomed and then bites again.
> No excuses for any dog to bite a human, Period.


I will be the first to disagree. This puppy is 11 months old. I can sit here and make excuses for the dog from here to doomsday. The owners of this puppy are the breeders. It is their responsibility. 

In my opinion they have three choices: 
1. Continue to work with someone with the puppy until they find an experience GSD person who understands the whole incident and is willing to take on the puppy. 

2. Keep the puppy, work with it, build its confidence, change their leadership style, and keep him safe from having a repeated incident.

3. Euthanize the puppy. 

I think that when we breed dogs, whether as breeders or as oopses, we then have responsibility for those dogs. An ordinary owner could go back to the breeder and say "help!" or even "take this dog." That is not a possibility here. And ordinary owner could also make the one way trip to the vet -- it bit a child, I cannot live with that situation. I would prefer to think that an ordinary owner would consider the circumstances, their part in the dog's behavior, and at least try something else rather than jump directly to euthanasia.

I do think that some of this probably is genetic though. Looking back at posts, I saw there were some fear issues going on with the young bitch. But we do not have to outright kill our mistakes. Sometimes it will come down to that, yes. But not a single incident that does seem to have been somewhat restrained. 

This was not an all out attack as you might see with rage syndrome. This was a single bite wound as the girl was turning to leave. I agree that it is not a herding bite, not in my opinion. I think it was more a stress/chicken bite. When you turn your back, the scaredy dog will rush up and nip in the leg to get you to go. 

It is NOT good character and should NOT be bred; but it probably can be managed. 

Even if that dog lives in the kennel during the day, and brought in at night when all the friends are gone for the day, it will still get family time. It will still be worked with to gain confidence and training, it will gain some time to mature, and it will be safe from biting someone else. That is sure better than DEATH to the BAD PUPPY! 

Sorry, I know that is a little emotional. Breeders have to make hard decisions that regular pet people NEVER will understand fully, but if we ever become cold, we might as well hang up our hat.


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## ken k

We are talking about an 11 month old puppy here, I really hate to hear suggestions about "putting the pup down", I could understand if the pup was 2 years old, but it is a pup, just my 2 cents


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## carmspack

In the very first panicked post there was information that the dog growled at one of the children , food guarding , and the poster did the responsible thing , went to training classes. There she was told that the dog was insecure . A nervous dog is not a dependable dog . With that knowledge more precautions should have been taken . Ask insurance companies why it is hard to get a policy with a GSD . 
By all accounts the bite was hard enough to see the impression of the lower teeth and have a piece of skin torn off. 
If you keep the dog you can never be casual . Do your training . Get good control. Maybe not have the two dogs together? Build a kenneled area where the dogs can enjoy being outside , but separated from contact with the kids. 
Make sure the girl is looked after . I hope you have a rabies vaccination proof . Check to see if the girl has an up to date tetanus shot . Does she need to be stitched . She may need an antibiotic to prevent infection - and that will involve a hospital and police report. 
Sorry , I can hear the agony and love for your children , and for children in general.

Hope you come up with a solution.
Carmen


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## wolfstraum

wyominggrandma said:


> Sorry, to me the dog commited the gravest thing a dog can do, bit a human. It is all great to make excuses as to why he did it: nervous, herding, protective of his family,thoughts of his space being threatened, the excuses can go on and on, but the bottom line is he bit a human for no conceivable reason and a child at that who had been in the backyard playing with your children.
> My opinion will not be one liked by many, but the dog should be euthanized. Period.
> Even giving the dog to someone else who might have experience with a bithing GSD or any dog that bites is all great and dandy, but if and when that person gets bit by the dog, or his family or friends, then they might pass the dog to someone else and so on and so on. Or heaven forbid, give him to a no kill shelter and not tell about his history and they send him home to a family where another person or child gets bit and so it goes.
> The best thing to do for the dog is for you to do the best for him, euthanize him and then you don't have to worry what might be happening to him down the road. You will never be able to control him being given away to someone else or being locked in a kennel or on a chain, especially if he bites again. I would rather be with the dog being euthanized by a needle than being shot or abused by another owner. Once you give the dog to someone else, you have no recourse if he is given away again and again no matter how many promises you might get.
> I know many will disagree with this, but I have been there, I have been bit by dogs that I was not given a history for when trying to help them or help the owners. I have seen dogs given to no kill shelters, not be told of the history and the dogs is rehomed and then bites again.
> No excuses for any dog to bite a human, Period.


I will not disagree with you - but knowing this board - this IS an unpopular answer and will bring out alot of defensiveness. 

The owner states that the dog does not have strong nerves. That the mother was not a strong nerved confident dog in earlier posts. Like begets like. This pup is a liability and a responsibility. Unfortunately, too many people cannot handle the responsibility. As a child I was bitten by a mutt owned by a neighbor several times - once, the neighbor scooped me up and held me up and he still managed to grab my leg - still have the scar. The dog was given away. My parents bought a cocker spaniel. That dog bit me 7 times, was given to a friend of my dads and lived out his life there. He had bitten a child previous to us getting him - and the seller told my parents AFTER signing him over that he did not like kids...a little old lady....fortunately for the dogs, people accepted that dogs bit and not such a big deal was made of either dog...my dad loved the Cocker....and he loved my dad...just not me...and I loved dogs ...go figure!

In any event - the OP has a responsibility to the dog and to people the dog will come across... putting a pup down that you love is a terrible thing....but the alternative may be worse for the dog in the long run....

When I started seriously training GSDs, I read an article that was an interview with one of the Martins I think by Ricardo Calajabel.....there was a comment in it that any dog who put it's mouth on a child did not see the next sunrise....period. No excuses. It is not the worst fate - shuffling from home to home to shelter to home is worse IMO.

Lee


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## wyominggrandma

I am a breeder and have bred dogs for many many years. I feel my responsibility towards the dogs I am breeding is to make sure they are safe and have good temperaments. I have put dogs down for biting, but that doesn't make me cold or heartless. It does make me responsible for making sure those dogs will not bite anyone again, ever. From my breeding program or from someone elses, dogs biting people are a financial diaster from any standpoint. The physical injuries from a dog bit can be as simple as welts or savaging, but a dog that bites once will bite again.
If you can live with a biting dog, know it can't be around kids or adults or men or women or whatever sets the dog off, then that is great for you. But to me, the one time the dog gets out of the kennel, or crate or whatever way you are holding him from being in contact with whatever causes him to bite is the one time someone can be damaged for life. Then you live with the knowledge that you knew your dog was a biter and then live with the financial ruin when someone sues you. Sure, its just a puppy now, but big enough to cause damage the next bite or the next or the next. 
My nephew was attacked and severely damaged by a person's wonderful friendly dalmation that was 10 months old. It played with the kids in the neighborhood all the time. What nobody told my sister was that the dog had bitten before, but it was okay because he bit for a reason. This dog had been playing with all the kids, including the owners kids and when my nephew went to leave the yard to go home, the dog jumped up and took off his nose and most of his lips. They did euthanize the dog this time, and my nephew has everlasting scars and issues with all dogs. He was just a puppy.
Sorry, puppy or not, the dog bit and you do not know why. Maybe the next bite will be worse. You can deal with it by listening to"he is just a puppy, get a trainer, give him to someone else, don't let him by kids, keep him confined, etc. If that is how you can deal with it, plus live with the knowledge it can happen again for whatever reason, then good for you. Me, I would have the dog put down, even if it is a puppy, because this might be something you will never be able to relax and enjoy your dog.


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## wyominggrandma

Wolfstraum, I totally agree with you and certainly agree with the "interview with one of the Martins I think by Ricardo Calajabel.....there was a comment in it that any dog who put it's mouth on a child did not see the next sunrise....period. No excuses. It is not the worst fate - shuffling from home to home to shelter to home is worse IMO."

It is not an easy thing to do or think about, but there are many more issues to deal with when you have a dog that bites, puppy or not.


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## KZoppa

Silvermoon said:


> Any chance that he was "herding / protecting" the child because she was leaving approved (in his mind) boundries?


 
i have to agree that this could be a possibility. A failed herding attempt. You said it happened when she went to unlatch the gate to go get something. perhaps he felt it was unsafe for her to leave the area. Would she have had an adult with her when she did so? many dogs have been known to try to protect. He may have meant to gently grab her arm and pull her back but because he is still a puppy, he may have gotten a little carried away with his task. He lives with children and has obviously been around while they've had friends over before. Has he ever done anything like that before?


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## Mrs.K

wyominggrandma said:


> Wolfstraum, I totally agree with you and certainly agree with the "interview with one of the Martins I think by Ricardo Calajabel.....there was a comment in it that any dog who put it's mouth on a child did not see the next sunrise....period. No excuses. It is not the worst fate - shuffling from home to home to shelter to home is worse IMO."
> 
> It is not an easy thing to do or think about, but there are many more issues to deal with when you have a dog that bites, puppy or not.


My father always said the same thing and I'd practice it as well, depending on what happened. 

If I was there and knew it was a fear/aggressive bite, the dog would be gone, if it was out of play and there was broken skin involved. Nope, not going to happen. 

If it was out of herding "You stay here, this is my pack." ... Boy would that dog get an earful. It's NOT his pack and if a dog starts herding 'his' pack than there is obviously a problem at home. 
The dog does NEVER decide whether or not somebody is allowed to leave. 

For now, I'd crate the dog anytime you have kids over. Watch him closely, have a behaviorist evaluate him and if you think that it might happen again, either re-home him and have the people know exactly what is going on, or do what you think is right. Some dogs, doesn't matter if they are 11 months old, have problems that can't be solved. Genetic/Nerv problems and it's better to notice it sooner than later. You don't want it to happen again and your family comes first. 

However, I am glad that the mother of the child is very understanding.


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## carmspack

That article was written by Ricardo E Carbajal . Ironically in the interview with Herman Martin, Martin has his dog "Vanta" a crazy dog , and says every once in a while you have to insert craziness ?????? no thank you . Also all his dogs greet Mr Carbajal with growling and barking and hackles up. That to me is a bad sign right there.
Here is the article About Us - Select K9s --- I do not like reactive dogs so my take on this article is not positive .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Kris10

I hope the OP tries other options, such as finding a home without children to take him on.

I completely understand her fears about having him in a home with children and their friends coming and going. Even if she tried to keep him secure at all times, what if one of the kids leaves a gate or door open? It is clear she would worry all the time about it.

This is a puppy. I just don't think anyone here should be advising this pup be PTS after reading one post written by someone who was still being emotional about what happened!! I hope the OP talks to a behaviorist and allows them to evaluate the pup.


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## Gretchen

If you constantly have kids over, especially if they are in elementary school or younger, I would try to find another home for your dog, unless you will always be there to separate the kids from the dogs. Dogs are unpredictable and small children are unpredictable, not a good combination. The idea of a soft muzzle sounds good, but in general I am not comfortable having a large dog, even a well behaved dog around small children, just because they might get knocked down.

At my 7th birthday, my 7 year old neighbor picked up my dog's ear (a Beagle) and blew into it, the dog responded by biting a fraction away from the kid's eyeball. Required a stitch or two, fortunately our neighbor's were understanding. He also had food aggression issues, and would bite food out of your hand, it happened to a few friends, but did not break their skin. Looking back I can say we should have got rid of that dog.


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## wyominggrandma

Okay, this "puppy" is 11 months old. When do you consider it not okay to bite? Being a puppy is okay, but if the dog was 2 or 3 then it would not be okay? Since when does the dog, any dog, decide its okay to herd kids or family at his descretion? Its okay because he is an 11 month old puppy and he decided to herd a child by the arm when leaving the yard and broke the skin? But its okay because he is only a puppy?
Why is it okay for an 11 month old puppy who probably weighs 70 or 80 lbs to grab a child by the arm for no reason? Would you let this same "puppy" growl at you when you take his food bowl away? When you want him off the bed or couch? I bet most people would not tolerate an 11 month old "puppy" growling to get off a couch or bed and would treat it like an adult and make a correction. But because its officially a puppy in actual age, he can be forgiven for biting?


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## sagelfn

I'm glad the child is okay.

I hope a lesson was learned here. You have a dog you knew had temperament issues. Whether or not he was being good is irrelevant. It only takes one small thing to set him off and that is what happened. You were not in a postition to control him if he did have a reaction.

If you don't feel safe, muzzle him. 

If you can't find a way to manage him properly or train him then you have 2 choices.

Euthanize or rehome and that could end up worse than euthanizing him.

Since you bred this dog I hope you contacted the owners of puppies you sold and find out if their pups have temperament issues.


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## Samba

Herdimg and tending of children does not really relate to problems of dominance aggression. They are different things.

None of us saw the dog so can not guess what exactly was going on in this particular instance.

For sure, management is the way to go. Training is very good for a dog but it does not take the place of management in certain situations.


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## sagelfn

I do not feel a dog should be put down for behavior issues unless after trying different methods the dog is still out of control aggressive. However, if the owner is not willing to help the dog then they need to put it down rather than the dog be dumped around. I don't know any good home looking for an aggressive dog with a bite history that will require lots of training.


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## Germanshepherdlova

When my GSD was a puppy, he had some serious dominance issues. I rented this DVD about how to do a dominance test on your dog, and part of the test was to put your hand under his jaw, (my pup was 3 months old at the time) I put my hand under his jaw and he ATTACKED me, and drew BLOOD. Note that we have children in our home. I was very concerned and considered selling him to a couple who wanted him. I decided to work with him instead, we followed Ceaser Milan's training techniques. Once he learned that he was not in charge, he submitted to our authority. He is 2 years old now, and has never, ever, attempted to bite us again. This 11 month old dog needs to be trained, a professional should be consulted.


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## Whiteshepherds

Zoeys mom said:


> Your dog didn't bite anyone he simply said hey you your not leaving come here....they can't exactly talk you know. A herding nip has nothing to do with confidence or lack there of...it was the attempt of your dog to redirect her direction- not aggression and not fear! I think everyone is freaking out too much here.


I think anytime a dog reacts to a non-threatening situation with a bite, or an attempt to bite, the owner and dog have a problem and it shouldn't be glazed over. It's not freaking out, it's dealing with a problem before it spirals out of control, into a catastrophe. 

Without having a video it's impossible to know what really happened, but the key is, the *owner says she doesn't trust the dog*. Unless she can get past that, it's going to be very hard for her to continue training the dog. That only leaves her with two options. Euthanize the dog or re-home it where there are no children.


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## Samba

Dominance is very overplayed and misunderstood regarding dogs. Training and control go a very long way in establishing a proper relationship. Training does not improve weak nerves as they will always be there. Managing a dog with nerve weakness by hsving it on lead under obedience or kept in a safe kennel or crate when unsupervised.


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## Samba

I have had dogs I would not turn loose in play situation with children. We did not have any bites by the dog but that likely is because the dog was not placed in situations it might not cope with. Euthanasia or rehome are not the only options.


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## Whiteshepherds

Samba said:


> I have had dogs I would not turn loose in play situation with children. We did not have any bites by the dog but that likely is because the dog was not placed in situations it might not cope with. *Euthanasia or rehome are not the only options*.


They are the only options unless the owner has the confidence it takes to carefully manage the dogs environment.


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## PupperLove

If the dog left welts from every tooth mark, and there was blood, that IMO has gone too far. There's a difference between a playful nip and an actual bite. If the dog actually bit a human, a child, it would be irresponsible to pass it off to someone else and hope that everything goes as planned for the dog, it's new owner, and others that come in contact with the dog. There's no way to guarantee that the dog won't ever be around children if he is passed to another family, and that's just putting another child, somewhere, at risk. Humans come first. There's only 2 options in my mind once you obtain a dog who bites: keep the dog and work with him. Accept the consequences- properly manage the dog at all times, or put the dog down. If my child was bit by someone else's dog I would be irate!


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## selzer

At what point do you put a dog down for biting? 7 months? 4 months? I had a puppy at 9 weeks bite a lady and make her BLEED and she bought him and is happy as a lark with him. 

I have two puppies now that were born last March. The one is pretty mouthy. She grabs with her mouth. She has never bruised or broken the skin. It is never aggressive -- never with a growl or menacing stand. But technically a stranger might think it a bite, and if someone drew away quickly it might break the skin, I guess, depending. But it is just mouthiness. Should I put her down? 

I am sorry but a German Shepherd dog is very much a puppy until they are two. Eleven months is still in the teenager phase. This was not a vicious mauling it was a single incident, possibly more of a grab than a bite. It is so hard to say. 

I understand that you have children and are a bit unnerved by the incident. I think it can be managed, but you have to decide if you can in good conscience and with all the facts in a very neutral manner handle that. 

I think we as a message board cannot do much more for you. I think the trainer that you are working with who has made an assessment of the dog is probably better. If you can wait two or three days and then outline the whole of the incident, your thoughts, and your feelings about it, and then ask the trainer's opinion, that might be the best bet.


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## PupperLove

Only you know the nature of the bite. If it was something playful, that is a different story. If it was agressive, then proper actions need to be taken to *prevent* this from happening again. The age of the dog doesn't matter- it's the nature of the bite. Puppies will make you bleed when they bite, but it is playful- that is _not_ grounds for being put down. But if any dog bites out of _agression,_ that's something totally different that needs different considerations. Maybe the same measures need to be taken when company is over, but different considerations need to be taken into account. It sounds as though it could have possibly been aggressive if the dog is 'unstable' and food agressive.


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## Lilie

The OP stated she is working with her trainer to find a home for her dog. I'll take a huge leap of faith here and assume her trainer is a professional. If the trainer feels the need to help her find another home for her pup - then the trainer must feel the dog is too much for the OP, but a pup with the capability to work through it's issues.


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## Heidibu

Samba said:


> Dominance is very overplayed and misunderstood regarding dogs. Training and control go a very long way in establishing a proper relationship. Training does not improve weak nerves as they will always be there. Managing a dog with nerve weakness by hsving it on lead under obedience or kept in a safe kennel or crate when unsupervised.


This is worth repeating. All of it.

This 11 month old GSD likely has not had the structured control and training that it requires, would be my guess. 

This dog does not deserve a death sentence. He could be somebody's heart dog some day, we don't know. Let's give him a chance in the hands of an experienced person. Probably, the best thing to do is listen to the trainer who will hopefully find a decent rehoming situation.

Good luck OP.


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## onyx'girl

RebelGSD said:


> It may be some unfortunate herding attempt. Also, some dogs that are fearful nip at people leaving their space.
> 
> In order to keep everyone safe, I suggest the soft fabric muzzle (you can purchase it at Petsmart). He can eat and drink with it but cannot cause any harm. Make sure that you loop it behind his collar so that he cannot get it off. I have used this very successfully with dogs that were not trustworthy, for example in obedience classes or when managing a foster with dog aggression. They get used to it. It is much more comfortable for dog and people than the basket muzzles. It will give you peace of mind.


I would use a basket muzzle over a fabric or mesh one...The dog will not be able to pant with a fabric muzzle and can overheat. And a fabric muzzle can be pawed off the dog with ease if they really want it removed.
A wire or plastic basket muzzle would be a much better option, and those are made to be worn for longer periods/fabric ones are for short term(vet visit,etc).


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## RebelGSD

onyx'girl said:


> I would use a basket muzzle over a fabric or mesh one...The dog will not be able to pant with a fabric muzzle and can overheat. And a fabric muzzle can be pawed off the dog with ease if they really want it removed.
> A wire or plastic basket muzzle would be a much better option, and those are made to be worn for longer periods/fabric ones are for short term(vet visit,etc).


We have tried both. Basket muzzles are great for police work and protection training. They can also be very dangerous in everyday life. If a child's finger gets stuck between the wires or grid. The child can end up with a broken finger. And just bumping into someone with a basket muzzle hurts. The mesh muzzles allow panting. They are not any easier or harder to get off than the basket muzzles. Giving a treat through the basket muzzle is a dangerous art, I tried it in training classes and the dog was extremely frustrated. One the dog got his nail stuck in the basket and was screaming and thrashing like crazy. It took three people to free the nail.


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## onyx'girl

My dogs cannot pant thru their fabric muzzle. I must not have the right kind. I only use mine for grooming & vet visits.
A child shouldn't even be close enough to a dog with a muzzle on to get fingers caught. 
Any dog with a muzzle on should be with their handler constantly, and desensitized to it short lengths of time before going to public outings, or when company comes over. 
If the dog is trying to paw it off acting crazy, then the dog wasn't introduced to it correctly.
Hopefully the OP will have a behaviorist help asap.


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## ken k

dont care for the fabric muzzle, learned that the hard way, had a GSD once, that i had to muzzle, was at the vets cutting his nails, he looked right at me and bit me on the arm, with just his small front teeth, it was a **** of a pinch


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## Sadiesmama

Seltzer,

Thank you so much. I feel that you answered this correctly for me. I did breed this puppy (by an oopsie) and I am responsible for his behaviour. He has had no other influence but me. I'm the one that needs to figure out what is best for him. I don't want to euthanize. I believe he is still young enough to be rehabilitated. I just don't think that I will ever feel confortable with him and my kids. He loves them but I will never know! Does that even make sense? He is in training and has been for months. They are willing to work with us on his confidence. He is only in the house when I'm with my own kids. He's in his crate when anyone is over and if I can't be in the same room as him. He is my baby and this is so hard for me. I love him and want to help him get better but I will always have that fear that it could happen to my own kids. He deserves a home (without kids) that will continue to work with him on his training. I found a home that we are going to visit this weekend. They do not have kids and it is on a farm. They have 150+ acres and have raised shepherds for many years. Their dogs are all spayed and neutered. They do not breed. They have horses and cows but are willing to work with Cisco so he feels comfortable around them. They know his issues, I was very upfront about it. This was a referral from our training facility. They have the time to work with him one on one. I'm hoping when I visit and then talk to my trainers, that we all think this is the best situation for him. They also know that he has only ever been an inside dog. Their dogs are kept in air conditioned inside/outside runs but get out on the property most of the day. He says they only currently have 2 shepherds and a smaller mixed breed. They go on trail rides with the horses and dogs on their own property so shouldn't have an issue with strangers coming up. I really hope its as good as it sounds. I feel better knowing my trainer referred them.


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## selzer

That is AWESOME. I hope it works out. 

Your kids do come first, of course. And there is no way you can give this dog what he needs -- kids and friends and other obligations. These other people sound like they are experienced and dedicated to the training and going into it with their eyes open. 

I think this is giving Cisco his best chance at a good and full life. 

Thank you for giving him a second shot. The fourteen month old dog that bit up the kids face has not gotten nearly the harsh responses your dog has, nor the dog who is a year old and biting his owner and kid -- they are still saying training, behaviorist to that person. I think your dog who is youngest, and who's incident, also less severe, I think has the best shot now.


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## Sadiesmama

carmspack said:


> In the very first panicked post there was information that the dog growled at one of the children , food guarding , and the poster did the responsible thing , went to training classes. There she was told that the dog was insecure . A nervous dog is not a dependable dog . With that knowledge more precautions should have been taken . Ask insurance companies why it is hard to get a policy with a GSD .
> By all accounts the bite was hard enough to see the impression of the lower teeth and have a piece of skin torn off.
> If you keep the dog you can never be casual . Do your training . Get good control. Maybe not have the two dogs together? Build a kenneled area where the dogs can enjoy being outside , but separated from contact with the kids.
> Make sure the girl is looked after . I hope you have a rabies vaccination proof . Check to see if the girl has an up to date tetanus shot . Does she need to be stitched . She may need an antibiotic to prevent infection - and that will involve a hospital and police report.
> Sorry , I can hear the agony and love for your children , and for children in general.
> 
> Hope you come up with a solution.
> Carmen


I guess I didn't let everyone know that he is current on his Rabies and all other shots. The little girl is up to date on her shots (according to her mother). The way the skin tore, stitches wouldn't have been possible. I didn't tear into the muscle just took the top few layers of skin (sorry for being graphic). Her mom took care of the wound right away. It has now been a week. The only spot where you see anything is under her arm where it tore. It is a scab now and there are no signs of infection. She has been watched closely and if there had been any signs of infection, her mom was going to take her in. I would have been fine with her turning Cisco in to the authorities. I don't know what I would have done in her situation. We have talked daily and she doesn't have any harsh words for Cisco. She knows him and just wants what I feel is best for him. I feel that a home without kids and people that are willing to continue his training would be the best for him. GOSH, this is so hard. I love him and my kids and I feel like I'm giving up on him. I have spoken to most of the other puppies new owners and no one is seeing any aggression/insecurity issue. Just the basic bark when strangers come around. I feel like I'm 100% to blame for him being this way and I just don't know what I did wrong!!!


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## Sadiesmama

sagelfn said:


> I'm glad the child is okay.
> 
> I hope a lesson was learned here. You have a dog you knew had temperament issues. Whether or not he was being good is irrelevant. It only takes one small thing to set him off and that is what happened. You were not in a postition to control him if he did have a reaction.
> 
> If you don't feel safe, muzzle him.
> 
> If you can't find a way to manage him properly or train him then you have 2 choices.
> 
> Euthanize or rehome and that could end up worse than euthanizing him.
> 
> Since you bred this dog I hope you contacted the owners of puppies you sold and find out if their pups have temperament issues.


Thank you for your response. I do have a dog that has issues but I was not aware that this would happen. He has never shown this type of issue before. We did have the food bowl issue but that was worked out with the training we were going to. Haven't had that issue for over 6 months. Never in a million years thought he would bite someone. I did learn the hard way and I feel awful that my little neighbor was the one it happened to. The trainer and I both feel that with continued training, he can be a great dog. I don't want to euthanize if I can find the best home for him. I'm sorry if others don't agree. 
I did in a recent post state that I have contacted the other owners and no one with these same issues. Hope this answered everything.


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## s14roller

Can anyone explain the difference between us humans dealing with our landsharks and their nips, etc but when the dog nips a child, all **** breaks loose? 

I have light scraps all up and down my arms from my pup's niping...she never bites hard, but obv has sharp tiny teeth. If a 11month old GSD wanted to bite the child, I think it would be a bit more than just a few layers of skin...so I can only assume it was a nip just like the many threads of owners who talk about the same issue. 

??


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## DJEtzel

Well, I read through page 3, so excuse me if I say something that has already been noted. That was a lot to take in.

Does anyone else NOT see this as a serious bite? It sounds IMO like a mouthy puppy wanting to play, but one who is far too large to be playing like that. We already know the dog will warn with a growl, so he must not have been insecure or fearful, he jumped on the girl, and just bruised her arm, tearing some skin which was apparently not his intent. So it sounds to me like she was leaving and Cisco wanted to play which was engaged by her moving. He jumped and mouthed, and bruised her up. 

This just sounds like a complete lack of training to me. Rehoming is definitely in the best interest of the dog because the OPs family is obviously not equipped to deal with such a dog, but putting it down? I think that's the last option I would ever take.


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## DJEtzel

s14roller said:


> Can anyone explain the difference between us humans dealing with our landsharks and their nips, etc but when the dog nips a child, all **** breaks loose?
> 
> I have light scraps all up and down my arms from my pup's niping...she never bites hard, but obv has sharp tiny teeth. If a 11month old GSD wanted to bite the child, I think it would be a bit more than just a few layers of skin...so I can only assume it was a nip just like the many threads of owners who talk about the same issue.
> 
> ??


I couldn't agree more.


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## Sadiesmama

selzer said:


> That is AWESOME. I hope it works out.
> 
> Your kids do come first, of course. And there is no way you can give this dog what he needs -- kids and friends and other obligations. These other people sound like they are experienced and dedicated to the training and going into it with their eyes open.
> 
> I think this is giving Cisco his best chance at a good and full life.
> 
> Thank you for giving him a second shot. The fourteen month old dog that bit up the kids face has not gotten nearly the harsh responses your dog has, nor the dog who is a year old and biting his owner and kid -- they are still saying training, behaviorist to that person. I think your dog who is youngest, and who's incident, also less severe, I think has the best shot now.


Selzer, 
Thank you, your response makes me feel much better. I know I started this post wanting peoples opinions and help but I'm feeling really bad about opening this up. I didn't realize how many different opinions I would get. All the way from "Awful dog-euthanize" to "find new home-no kids" to "you created him, you fix him". I'm at a loss. I have worked with him. Taken him to training weekly, worked with him at home almost every night. I really NEVER saw this happening from him. He is a great dog and has done so much better than his Mama with learning commands. Sadie is stubborn. I feel like I've tried to make him a great dog. He gets walks daily, goes to town with me to socialize, etc... What didn't I do? That's what I keep asking myself. I feel I'm choosing the best option for him and I'm sorry if others don't agree. Oh well, thank you for your help though, it's really appreciated. 

For everyone,
I do appreciate everyone elses thoughts and opinions. I'm sorry that I created a very emotional/controversial post. I did feel euthanizing was the route to go that night, but once I had a chance to think about it, I didn't think it was fair to him. If I can't help him (and I'm glad I can realize this) then I want to find a great home (that knows everything) that is willing to give him the help that I can't. Please know that this situation and decision was not easy to make. If I didn't have kids, this wouldn't even be a post. I would be able to devote all my time to him without the fear of my kids or others getting hurt. I understand everyones opinion and don't feel they are right or wrong in feeling that way. This has helped me though very much. Thank you to everyone again!


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## selzer

Some of us are not yelling "OFF WITH HIS HEAD."

I think it is important to take these things seriously, because the tendancy is to minimize, make excuses, for and forgive when we are forced to actually see that it happened.

At the same time, there are two other, older dogs, that seem to have worse offenses, multiple offenses, and no one is really saying those dogs should be euthanized. 

I do not know if this was a puppy-type play bite. It certainly sounds like it was not terribly aggressive. If the pup was pretty ramped up, I would say it was probably just mouthyness. But it does not sound like that either. 

Hope the new home, with different people, who have plenty of experience with the breed, and continued training, and natural maturating, will straighten the pup out.


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## Deuce'sMom

I am so very sorry this has happened to you. I feel your concern for all children and your love for your dog. What a horrid situation. I believe those who are more experienced have given you some great advice, I just wanted to say don't beat yourself up too much about this. I know when I posted about problems I was having, there didn't seem to be an understanding soul anywhere! Hugs.


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## bunchoberrys

wyominggrandma said:


> Sorry, to me the dog commited the gravest thing a dog can do, bit a human. It is all great to make excuses as to why he did it: nervous, herding, protective of his family,thoughts of his space being threatened, the excuses can go on and on, but the bottom line is he bit a human for no conceivable reason and a child at that who had been in the backyard playing with your children.
> My opinion will not be one liked by many, but the dog should be euthanized. Period.
> Even giving the dog to someone else who might have experience with a bithing GSD or any dog that bites is all great and dandy, but if and when that person gets bit by the dog, or his family or friends, then they might pass the dog to someone else and so on and so on. Or heaven forbid, give him to a no kill shelter and not tell about his history and they send him home to a family where another person or child gets bit and so it goes.
> The best thing to do for the dog is for you to do the best for him, euthanize him and then you don't have to worry what might be happening to him down the road. You will never be able to control him being given away to someone else or being locked in a kennel or on a chain, especially if he bites again. I would rather be with the dog being euthanized by a needle than being shot or abused by another owner. Once you give the dog to someone else, you have no recourse if he is given away again and again no matter how many promises you might get.
> I know many will disagree with this, but I have been there, I have been bit by dogs that I was not given a history for when trying to help them or help the owners. I have seen dogs given to no kill shelters, not be told of the history and the dogs is rehomed and then bites again.
> No excuses for any dog to bite a human, Period.


I totally agree with Wyominggrandma. I could not in good conscience keep let alone rehome a dog that has such weak nerves and is noted to show aggression not only to my own children but also any other child. Especially if I had taken the time to take him to a trainer, and was told by a professional that the dog had severe issues. If Kane was anything like Cisco, I would have had him euthanized immediatley. No question. Such a shame that no one is inquiring about the little girl. Because of this she could be not only physically but emotionally scarred. That alone would have sealed his fate. I have been bitten by a white GS, with the same exact issues that you have with Cisco, but he came behind me and bit my calf right through jeans and had to have stitches. The owners apolgized and said that he was in training for his issues. Obviously the training did no good because the dog turned on their toddler and ripped off a portion of his ear. 

And on the rehoming.....absolutely not. People are forgetting that its not just about the quality of life the dog, but what about the ramifications this dog has already done. He bit a child. Not a nip. A bite. Unacceptable. Period.


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## selzer

OFF WITH HIS HEAD! 

Why is it so much worse for a dog to bite a child than to bite an adult? Does a dog check ids? Ooops that one is 17, OFF WITH HIS HEAD! 

I wonder if people are getting these confused. l mean, the six year old with a bite on her nose, well, maybe she will have a few scars both emotional and physical. This kid with a minor bite, a little scab on her arm, I am sorry, ANYONE can get emotional scars from anything. 

This bite just does not strike me as that devastating. If the next people who have a lot of experience with dogs, work with him for a while, they can make the decision as to whether the dog can be managed, or should be euthanized. 

I cannot understand how quickly people want to put a puppy down. GSDs are NOT mentally mature until at least 2 for males. Females, maybe a little quicker. But this guy is a puppy. He is not hopeless. He caused an injury to a child that did not require medical attention. He did not MAUL a child.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Selzer, the dog is still a pup and needing some major guidance/training. 
I feel for the child, unprovoked as it was, but pups are oral and will bite...they need to learn it is unacceptable. 
Onyx chased my 6 yr old nephew(Onyx was about 9 months) and he started screaming, causing Onyx to tag him in a herding nip(on the back of the arm). This happened in my back yard.
Didn't hurt the child, but I was diligent from then on to NOT have her loose around young children.

Re-homing may be the answer here, I don't believe euth'ing is. 
I have two dogs that aren't good with small children, I manage them carefully. But I don't have small kids living in my home, when they do come to visit, dogs are crated.


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## selzer

I put a dog down for aggression once. 

I got the dog when he was ten weeks old. He was mostly working lines mixed with local pet lines. That day, he aggressively backed up a full grown lab mix on its property (my neighbor's dog).

I did not have a clue what I was doing, and the dog was a handful from the git-go. I made every mistake in the book. At 18 months he shattered his leg. I considered putting him down, but the vet suggested we let it heal. And heal it did. It healed crooked and he had pain from it for his remaining six years. I did not feel he was a good candidate for obedience training after that when his issues started really getting worse. He was high energy and high drive, but could not be exercised. 

When he was two, he looked into the eyes of a three year old child and gave a deep low growl. Her father hurried her away. Frodo was not good with children. He did not bite her, but leaving them together in a room might have been fatal. 

As time wore on, we had a few close calls with family members. He was becoming more aggressive, and even a jerk with the lead to keep him in my yard would be answered by a growl. He was becoming a terrorist. 

I have been bitten by three dogs I was caring for, my brother's, and one of my previous dogs, and Frodo. Frodo was the only one where it was NOT an accident. The others were in the middle of dog fights and I put my body parts between their teeth. I do not count those. If two dogs are trying to make each other bleed and you put your hand in there, you get what you deserve. 

And Frodo's bite, in hindsight showed a lot of restraint. Three of my fingers were bleeding, but it was barely bruised. It could have been MUCH worse. In fact, he closed his mouth around my wrist first, and then when I continued to shove him in his crate, he bit one time, catching three fingers. 

I put him down. His aggression was getting progressively worse, and his pain in his bad leg was too. I figured if he would bite me, he might bite the little kids next door, given the opportunity -- he never was given the opportunity. 

That was my worst feeling ever. I failed that dog. I did not keep him safe from the car. I did not train him. I did not provide adequate leadership. And I took him to be killed. My fault all the way. Yes he probably was wired funky. But he could have been managed better. I put him down about ten years ago. He was my first GSD, my first dog, and I STILL feel guilty for his life and death. I would never blatantly tell someone to put a dog down because of an incident. It is not something you recover from right away.


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## Good_Karma

Wow Sue, thank you for sharing that story.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

I advised a friend to put a dog down for aggression... but I think her situation was quite different from that in the OP.

In my friend's situation, the dog (a border collie adopted from the shelter) had somehow lost it's warning: the dog did not growl, he simply attacked, and viciously so. We worked and worked with that dog to try and train the growl back into him and were making some progress, but he still was SEVERELY aggressive to other dogs and to children. We can only assume that someone taught him that children are allowed to hurt dogs.  This dog would never have been safe around kids or other dogs... and one day the inevitable happened: he attacked a child. He didn't just bite or nip... he went for the throat and bit the child in three different places on the throat and face. 

This dog was haunted by his own demons and the kindest thing was to put him to rest. Someone failed that poor dog and he paid the ultimate price.


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## RubyTuesday

> I agree with Selzer, the dog is still a pup and needing some major guidance/training.
> I feel for the child, unprovoked as it was, but pups are oral and will bite...they need to learn it is unacceptable.


Absolutely! The pups behavior was NOT acceptable but it was (IMO) a 'serious misdemeanor' type offense, not a major felony & certainly not deserving of the death penalty. A good behavioral/temperament evaluation would be invaluable. Additional training s/b pursued as well. Training is a learning opportunity for humans as well as dogs.



> Does anyone else NOT see this as a serious bite?


I think it was more of a nip than a bite. Possibly intended to be playful, possibly something else, but nothing like a serious bite & not even close to an attack. There seem to be others that share that opinion.

I'm wary of seeing euthanasia for behavior/temperament problems recommended on discussion boards. Canine behavior & motivations are so frequently misjudged by loving pet owners. I've known people who have kept dogs for years, sometimes decades, yet never deeply understood even basic canine behaviors & motivations. 

Anyone considering euthanasia should consult with knowledgeable vets, trainers & behaviorists before taking such an irrevocable action. Other options should be thoroughly explored & discussed. Euthanasia s/b the last consideration not the 1st.

I'm also not a fan of the notion that any dog whose laid a tooth on a human s/b pts. There are nips & bites & BITES & all out attacks. There are dogs who are ill mannered, untrained, confused, frightened, angry, insane. Most 'bad' dogs can be re-habbed or managed. A few can't. Problems with dogs are often problems with people. Simply eliminating or discarding 'problem' dogs is (IMO) terribly unfair to this species that has given us so much & served us so well. Dogs are so forgiving of human indiscretions & so tolerant of human foibles. It's tragic to see them so often given so little tolerance & forgiveness in return.


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## s14roller

If the dog is showing agression across the board and the bite was an attack, then yes, putting it down would be more than a reasonable consideration. However, I'm surprised that this many ppl are taking it this far. I mean, this is a GSD forum, correct? One that should realize the GSD has among the STRONGEST BITE forces? So when you tell me a little child lost a touch of skin, just like I have lost some layers of skin when my pup gets excited and plays with me, I have a hard time considering it was a BITE versus a NIP. 

What's also a bit strange is one on hand, we have lots of ppl on the forum who scream bloody murder if a trainer says they should tap the dog on the nose as a correction, and then we have this, where a nip = the death penalty.


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## Caledon

RubyTuesday, very nicely said.

I can see how the OP first thought was euthanasia. It was based on emotion and shock and liability issues, especially since it invovled a child. All overwhelming. It sounds as if it were a nip too done possibly to prevent the child from leaving the yard.


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## LaRen616

Caledon said:


> RubyTuesday, very nicely said.


:thumbup:


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## wyominggrandma

I guess my thoughts are when did it become so acceptable for a dog to bite? And then make any number of excuses for it? If the GSD today are so quick to bite, be over reactive, be dominate and so on and so on, then maybe the people breeding them should rethink the possibility that many many people are not capable of handling a GSD as a pet and companion and the bloodlines are producing dogs that are 'way to quick to do what they want" and the owners are not able to train them from the beginning to have boundries to live in.
I am sorry, but I have raised many many different GSD over the years and other breeds as well, and have yet to accept my dogs biting a person.I have done search and rescue, drug training, personal protection(yes a dog can be taught to bite such as schutzund work, but they bite a sleeve, not flesh and its not when "THEY" decide to bite)sheriffs bite work, obedience, conformation, tracking and as I said, my dogs have never bitten anyone. I read all the time about puppies leaving bite and scratch marks down a persons arms and legs and it is laughed off as "GSD are land sharks". Why is this acceptable from 8 or 9 weeks and the puppy is taught its okay to bite, when its not. I don't have those marks and have not let a puppy give me those marks, they can be diciplined and taught that biting is not okay. My dogs are happy, and social and can go anywhere and be approached and petted by anyone. I want them that way, I want them to accept going to the vet, being in shows and being touched by strangers when I expect them to.They don't lunge walking down the street, they dont get reactive at noises, other dogs or any strange things, I have just raised them up by expecting them to be normal and to act that way and I act that way towards them. No slinking around when people come to visit, no acting stupid at the vets or in the car or anywhere else. They just act like normal dogs.
When you raise horses, a foal comes up to see you and tries to mouth you, or when they strike out at you. Some people think this is cute and don't correct for it. Most people realize its not cute and won't be cute when its a full size horse and don't allow it to happen or correct it immediately. Why is it okay to let a puppy bite and chew for the first 4 or 5 months as a "landshark" then all of a sudden you have a 60 pound dog that bites and everyone wonders why. Kinda like giving a kid a gun and telling them to go play with it, then wondering why they shoot someone when they get older if they have not been taught the correct way to deal with a gun or the conquences if they do something wrong with it.
I am sorry and I am sure I will be trashed for this, but thread after thread deals with biting dogs and the excuses everyone comes up with to make it a "minor bite or nip" or whatever, instead of dealing with the fact that your dog has just bitten someone everyone makes minor of it and to get a trainer or behavioralist to fix it, maybe you need to think that the dog will bite again and hopefully not take off someones face or arm , especially a child. How sad that biting is okay in some folks eyes.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

wyominggrandma said:


> I am a breeder and have bred dogs for many many years. I feel my responsibility towards the dogs I am breeding is to make sure they are safe and have good temperaments. I have put dogs down for biting, but that doesn't make me cold or heartless. It does make me responsible for making sure those dogs will not bite anyone again, ever. From my breeding program or from someone elses, dogs biting people are a financial diaster from any standpoint.
> 
> snipped the rest





> I am sorry, but I have raised many many different GSD over the years and other breeds as well, and have yet to accept my dogs biting a person.I have done search and rescue, drug training, personal protection(yes a dog can be taught to bite such as schutzund work, but they bite a sleeve, not flesh and its not when "THEY" decide to bite)sheriffs bite work, obedience, conformation, tracking and as I said, my dogs have never bitten anyone.


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## RebelGSD

Well, if someone kills all dogs that bite (or are imprefect in terms of temperament), the remaining ones should be prefect, shouldn't they?

I think that it is good thing that there are people who have a high threshold regarding killing a healthy animal for one incident. It is also great that there are people who feel that their pet (or a living creature) deserves a second chance and are willing to invest time and effort to fix a problem.


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## Lmilr

wyominggrandma said:


> I am sorry, but I have raised many many different GSD over the years and other breeds as well, and have yet to accept my dogs biting a person.I have done search and rescue, drug training, personal protection(yes a dog can be taught to bite such as schutzund work, but they bite a sleeve, not flesh and its not when "THEY" decide to bite)sheriffs bite work, obedience, conformation, tracking and as I said, my dogs have never bitten anyone.


 
So I guess the sheriffs bite work dogs you've trained have never been put out in the field working then...since you say that none of your dogs have even bitten anyone. 
Just wondering.


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## RebelGSD

Right, the sheriff is carrying the sleeve around to put on the bad guy before the dog bites.


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## PaddyD

RebelGSD said:


> Well, if someone kills all dogs that bite (or are imprefect in terms of temperament), the remaining ones should be prefect, shouldn't they?
> 
> I think that it is good thing that there are people who have a high threshold regarding killing a healthy animal for one incident. It is also great that there are people who feel that their pet (or a living creature) deserves a second chance and are willing to invest time and effort to fix a problem.


I think I agree with where you're coming from. Don't throw the puppy out with the bath water.


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## selzer

Breeding for good health and temperament -- If you kill every dog that is less than perfect in temperament, what do you do with dogs with a health problem?:halogsd:


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## MicheleMarie

Sadiesmama said:


> Selzer,
> Thank you, your response makes me feel much better. I know I started this post wanting peoples opinions and help but I'm feeling really bad about opening this up. I didn't realize how many different opinions I would get. All the way from "Awful dog-euthanize" to "find new home-no kids" to "you created him, you fix him". I'm at a loss. I have worked with him. Taken him to training weekly, worked with him at home almost every night. I really NEVER saw this happening from him. He is a great dog and has done so much better than his Mama with learning commands. Sadie is stubborn. I feel like I've tried to make him a great dog. He gets walks daily, goes to town with me to socialize, etc... What didn't I do? That's what I keep asking myself. I feel I'm choosing the best option for him and I'm sorry if others don't agree. Oh well, thank you for your help though, it's really appreciated.
> 
> For everyone,
> I do appreciate everyone elses thoughts and opinions. I'm sorry that I created a very emotional/controversial post. I did feel euthanizing was the route to go that night, but once I had a chance to think about it, I didn't think it was fair to him. If I can't help him (and I'm glad I can realize this) then I want to find a great home (that knows everything) that is willing to give him the help that I can't. Please know that this situation and decision was not easy to make. If I didn't have kids, this wouldn't even be a post. I would be able to devote all my time to him without the fear of my kids or others getting hurt. I understand everyones opinion and don't feel they are right or wrong in feeling that way. This has helped me though very much. Thank you to everyone again!



Ugh!! I was reading the last couple of posts about people saying to euthanize him (I won't get started) THIS POST MADE ME **BEEAAAMM**
I love you for giving him a 2nd chance. Not every dog is in the right home. My first dog would snap at kids and after a year of 100% devotion she LOOVVEESS kids. Not saying he ever will...but with a right home he can be the right dog.
please don't feel bad about what you are doing, you are doing the right thing and a great thing. **hugs**


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## Mrs.K

I agree, dogs will be dogs will be dogs will be dogs. They can't talk like us and sometimes the only reaction they have is a nip. We weren't there and don't really know what happened and I believe that it is blown way out of proportion. 

Sometimes accidents happen and the only thing we can do is to learn from them but to euthanize every dog that broke skin without even looking at the situation is plain wrong. 

The situation DOES MATTER. There is a huge difference between a play-bite, accidental bite, aggressive-mauling/attack, fear-bite and a nip. 

Unless we were there we can't say "Euthanize him". We don't know the dog, we don't know what happened, we can't judge the situation from the computer screen. 

It's the owners decision and her decision only whether she's giving him a chance or not. 

Now if he has got weak nerves and bites anytime somebody startles him he might have a slight problem but I understand that this was a first time incident and maybe all it takes is a little training. 

If she had trained him for three years and he had done it at age four and she just couldn't turn him around... totally different situation.


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## wyominggrandma

Guess I should be perfect in my wording, I helped train Sheriffs dogs for bite work, NOT my specific dogs. And I also said that the dogs should not decide on THEIR terms when to bite.


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## wyominggrandma

I have spent thousands of dollars to keep dogs healthy, I am not talking health, I am talking biting dogs that bite when THEY want to for whatever reason. I also said that dogs can be raised from a puppy not to chew on arms and legs and let it be laughed off as "landsharks"
Whatever. You can turn my words around, you can say how bad I am, BUT
At least I know my dogs can be safe on the streets, in public, at shows, at the vets at Petsmart and anywhere else I take them and not have them bite,or lunge, growl or snarl, they act like well behaved dogs that love everyone.


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## wyominggrandma

And again, I am not saying "I kill dogs that are less than perfect in temperament" I said dogs DO NOT HAVE TO BITE, and shouldnt bite. Just because a dog bites doesn't mean its temperament is bad, it just means it was allowed to bite and not be diciplined when it did bite, excuses were made for the bite. It has been allowed to be the boss of the family and it decides who should leave the yard, who should get in the car, who should be able to come into the house. Unless a dogs temperament is totally screwed up from birth,(which is another matter entirely) people let the dog become what it turns out from the day it comes home. No puppy comes into the world being a biter, its been allowed to bite and not told it cant happen.
Guess I am just different than alot of folks on here, I want to enjoy my dogs, I want to be able to take them places, I want to be able to have people in my home without my dogs having to be crated or lock away from adults, kids or whatever. 
Have at it folks, I don't care. Like I said I can take my dogs anywhere anytime and not worry about them biting or snarling or growling, and I enjoy that feeling.


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## s14roller

wyominggrandma said:


> Guess I should be perfect in my wording, I helped train Sheriffs dogs for bite work, NOT my specific dogs. And I also said that the dogs should not decide on THEIR terms when to bite.


I agree that they need to be taught that humans are the master. The landshark issue is something that I believe there's no solution for...and what I mean by that is, I think as long as we show displeasure in this, they get the idea, and eventually grow out of it. 

Honestly, I think the thread has gotten too long...bottom line should be, if it's a vicious dog with a history of these kind of actions, it should be put down. If it's a dog that nipped and caused no serious wound, nor was it perceived as a physical attack, then it's chalked up to a dog being a dog. 

To put into perspective, a human child who constantly beats up his younger sister day in and day out should be locked up. A human child who decided to pull on his sister's hair too hard one day, should be yelled at. One is a kid being a kid...the other is a kid waiting to become a criminal.

Without being there, but hearing what the result of the arm on that child that got NIPPED, I'd say this was a nip, and nothing else. Fact is, if it was a bite, this girl would be in the hospital getting fixed up.


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## Lmilr

wyominggrandma said:


> No excuses for any dog to bite a human, Period.





wyominggrandma said:


> Guess I should be perfect in my wording, I helped train Sheriffs dogs for bite work, NOT my specific dogs. And I also said that the dogs should not decide on THEIR terms when to bite.


You're only mildly contradicting yourself in your statements but I can see where you are trying to go with this even if I dont completely agree with the measures you administer. 
I was bitten myself when I was 3 years old by a rottwieler. The bit came from a lack of knowledge on my part (and my parents) and a young untrained dog. The dog was NOT euthenized even though it did do damage to me and later on in life after my growing up some and the dog having more training it ended up being a great dog that never again had any issues.

Just because some can joke about 'Landsharks' does not mean that it is excepted hence the large threads on Biting Inhibition.


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## suzzyq01

This thread made me think of this fantastic article I read. 

The top 5 most dangerous dogs. Chances are the dog that bit the child was one of these. 

Undoubtedly it’s going to be controversial. Without fear of chicken counting, it will receive a lot of traffic. And without any element of doubt, it might cause ripples but it needs to be out there, for the public to know. We’ve decided to publicly name the five MOST dangerous dogs on the planet.

*The Most Dangerous Dogs in the World*









in reverse order:
*5. Badly fed dog.*
Badly fed dog is the animal who’s been fuelled up with a diet fit for an Olympic weight lifter, but who only ever gets to expend about 20% of the calories he takes in. He’s got lots of energy and his mismatched diet can manifest in bouts of sudden energetic rampaging. Badly fed dog would ask you to consider; how you would feel spending your day in an office when every inch of your body is throbbing and twitching as you crave the opportunity to actually use up some of those excess calories. Badly fed dog would be happier and safer if his diet reflected his lifestyle.
*4. Never had any friends dog.*
Otherwise known as ‘totally under socialised dog’.
He was a little naughty when he was a puppy, so his owner decided he’d be better off being kept away from all other forms of animal life. He now spends his days obsessing over what it would be like to chase other dogs around and, by George, one of these days he’s gonna actually do it!
Never had any friends dog is going to present his owner with a lifetime of problems, he has no social skills and has never had a chance to learn natural interaction through the teachings of his own kind. He’ll meet new dogs and will be about as socially adept as a 45-year old virgin at a Playboy mansion party. He’s going to blow it. Big time.
*3. Shouty.*
Shouty is the dog who has spent most of his life shouting at folks or being shouted at himself. He sees people on his street, he shouts at them. In turn, his owner shouts at him. Shouty presumes being shouted at is a recognition of his excellent work. In fact, hearing his owner shouting in response to his own shouting encourages his assumption that they’re just as upset, anxious, nervous, angry as HE is about the audacity of other people/dogs/pigeons to walk past his window. Shouty is relentlessly encouraged and endorsed in his shouty behaviour and, a bit like no friends dog, shouty spends his days imaging how good it will be when he FINALLY gets his chance to get face to face with the objects of his ire.
*2. House proud.*
House proud dog is SO touchy about people coming to his digs unannounced, he’ll happily maim you for your insolence in trying to visit his abode without obtaining the correct visitation paperwork.
House proud dog does a line in dishing out injuries to posties, meter readers and delivery people. Fortunately for house proud dog, his owners absolutely REFUSE to believe he is capable of violence, so leave him completely unattended to dish out his own brand of justice to anyone brash enough to consider entering his domain.
*1. Spoilt dog.*
“That’s mine and these are mine, those are mine, I’m entitled to that, I believe that I saw that first, I lay claim to those, I own all of these, I’m the rightful proprietor of this…”
Welcome to the world of spoilt dog. Quite simply, he believes everything he wants, he can have. Woe betide anyone to tell him differently. His timid owners have never had the heart to let him know that in the human world, simply showing your teeth and growling doesn’t constitute a legal contract on the ownership of goods. They let him off and, worse, they let him keep his spoils, which he’ll gather up and place in his own corner of the world.
Sadly, spoilt dog is, one day, going to meet someone who is unaware that he has previously laid claim to every possession on earth. Unfortunately, unlike spoilt dog’s owners, this person is going to have to find out the hard way just how deep spoilt dog’s sense of entitlement runs. Really hard luck if it happens to be a youngster, blissfully ignorant to the fact that the shiny ball on the floor is spoilt dog’s most prized possession (at that VERY moment). A few stitches and a spell in hospital ought to serve as a permanent reminder though.
[What? You didn't think there was a such a thing as a list of 'dangerous dog breeds' did you? Pffft.]


PS: *End bsl*.
You know it makes sense. 



The 5 Most Dangerous Dogs


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## wyominggrandma

Thanks for the lessons. 
Lets see if I can clear up what I have said:
I won't own a biting dog, period. I do not think a dog should bite a human, period.

I have trained police dogs(sheriff's office) and they are well trained dogs, they also don't bite on their own decisions, their handler tells them when to bite and when to stop biting. Plus, I DON'T own them, the officers do.

Its fine if you want to own a dog that bites a child trying to leave the house, nip or bite,it broke the skin. (Bet the insurance company that insures the OP's home would like to hear why the dog bit, oh excuse me, nipped a child that was invited into their home)Own a dog that you can't take somewhere because it lunges at kids or attacks the windows of cars because it sees things outside, or bites because you walk by its food dish or growls and bites your 14 year old daughter. You live with the constant stress and worry of your dog biting, or nipping harder the next time and someone ends up in the hospital. You live with the thought of rehoming the dog, knowing it bites and find out down the road it attacked another child and did major damage this time. Just because a person didn't end up at the emergency room, doesn't mean it wasn't a bite. I get bit at work from the idiot dogs that idiot people bring in to be treated and even though they are bloody and skin is broken, I don't go to the hospital, I put myself on antibiotics and clean the wound. 
A bite is a bite. I deal with biting dogs the way I feel is necessary. I know where that dog is, I never have to worry about it being shot or given to another person or taken to a pound, I know because I sat with the dog while it was being euthanized. 
Now, before anyone jumps on what I just said and says I contridicted myself, my daughter bought a Sheltie puppy from one of the top breeders in the country for my granddaughter. Both my daughter and granddaughter have been brought up around dogs, both know how to train a dog. This puppy, at 6 months old started biting for no reason. Granddaughter sitting on floor of bedroom, dog jumping off bed and biting. Granddaughter walking down hallway , dog attacks. I brought the dog into my house to see if I could figure out what was going on. Dog and I were outside working on some heeling and sitting. I started walking , asked dog to heal and it jumped up and tore my pants and drew blood.. Dog was euthanized the same day. I brought a bitch home from a breeder to breed to one of my males. My hubby who has been around dogs for years was carrying her to the yard, she looked at him and attacked. He had marks under his eye and across his cheek, swelled up and turned black and blue like he had been hit with a baseball bat.(this was also a Sheltie) I called the owner, said either come get the dog or I would euthanize it. She did not tell me the dog had bit her also. Dog was euthanized that day.
I can see everyone is trying to make me a wicked person by stating my opinions. So be it. Like I said, at least my dogs enjoy life and can go wherever I want them to go without worry.And people on the streets or in my home or at dog shows don't have to worry about being bit because they walked too close to my dog, or looked at it.
I am done


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## selzer

I think puppies are born biters. Yupp, they play and bite each other and I have NEVER seen a puppy who didn't bite in the litter playing one with another. 

They are oral creatures. Yes they paw things, but mostly they use their mouthes. Some are NATURALLY more BITEY and or MOUTHY. 

I TEACH mine to be GENTLE. I teach them the GENTLE command. I take them everywhere, pet stores, shows, training classes, groomers, vets and have not had an incident with anyone else yet. I feel confident that they will not bite, but I respect that they CAN. 

Dogs bite to protect themselves. They have different thresholds. One will feel threatened in ordinary situations, some will react to a felt threat much quicker than another dog. Dogs are born with this. We socialize them to provide them with confidence in ordinary situations. We train them and bond with them so that they have confidence in us to protect them, so they do not feel that they need to protect themselves.

Why does a dog jump up and nip/bite when the back is turning to go? I think some dogs are too afraid to confront a threat to them while it is facing them but might nip or bite when the back is turned. Maybe to speed the unwelcomed guest on its way. Maybe so that it would not go near the gate. Who knows, none of us can crawl into the dog's head and figure out why he felt he should grab at the arm. While some dogs have been known to protect their children from dangers, I doubt if that is going on here. 

Some bonds with people are not good ones. The dog feels that the person cannot protect them or is unstable, unpredictable. Even a dog with nerves of steel can have problems with an unpredictable owner. Like children/people, some dogs need a more structured consistent approach in life than other dogs do. Some people say dogs are creatures of habit. Some dogs are weirded out if a family member is not there in the morning, or if they feed him before the family sits down to eat, or if his collar is removed. Other dogs seem to roll with the changes without being weirded out even if the entire extended family descends on the household for three days. 

And some dogs will turn completely around if they are living with a different set of people. Not blaming the people, not blaming the dog, it just seems to be true, that SOME dogs do much better with different owner styles. 

I have not heard a lot of excuses for this incident. I have heard people wanting to clarify it and understand it. If the dog grabbed the arm because the kids NEVER open the gate in their family, that would be a lot different and might be treated differently if the dog was going for the head or throat and the arm got in the way. People are trying to understand better so that they can give their best opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I never got the impression that this owner was just going to blow the whole thing off because she dodged a bullet.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Thanks for the lessons.
> Lets see if I can clear up what I have said:
> I won't own a biting dog, period. I do not think a dog should bite a human, period.
> 
> I have trained police dogs(sheriff's office) and they are well trained dogs, they also don't bite on their own decisions, their handler tells them when to bite and when to stop biting. Plus, I DON'T own them, the officers do.
> 
> Its fine if you want to own a dog that bites a child trying to leave the house, nip or bite,it broke the skin. (Bet the insurance company that insures the OP's home would like to hear why the dog bit, oh excuse me, nipped a child that was invited into their home)Own a dog that you can't take somewhere because it lunges at kids or attacks the windows of cars because it sees things outside, or bites because you walk by its food dish or growls and bites your 14 year old daughter. You live with the constant stress and worry of your dog biting, or nipping harder the next time and someone ends up in the hospital. You live with the thought of rehoming the dog, knowing it bites and find out down the road it attacked another child and did major damage this time. Just because a person didn't end up at the emergency room, doesn't mean it wasn't a bite. I get bit at work from the idiot dogs that idiot people bring in to be treated and even though they are bloody and skin is broken, I don't go to the hospital, I put myself on antibiotics and clean the wound.
> A bite is a bite. I deal with biting dogs the way I feel is necessary. I know where that dog is, I never have to worry about it being shot or given to another person or taken to a pound, I know because I sat with the dog while it was being euthanized.
> Now, before anyone jumps on what I just said and says I contridicted myself, my daughter bought a Sheltie puppy from one of the top breeders in the country for my granddaughter. Both my daughter and granddaughter have been brought up around dogs, both know how to train a dog. This puppy, at 6 months old started biting for no reason. Granddaughter sitting on floor of bedroom, dog jumping off bed and biting. Granddaughter walking down hallway , dog attacks. I brought the dog into my house to see if I could figure out what was going on. Dog and I were outside working on some heeling and sitting. I started walking , asked dog to heal and it jumped up and tore my pants and drew blood.. Dog was euthanized the same day. I brought a bitch home from a breeder to breed to one of my males. My hubby who has been around dogs for years was carrying her to the yard, she looked at him and attacked. He had marks under his eye and across his cheek, swelled up and turned black and blue like he had been hit with a baseball bat.(this was also a Sheltie) I called the owner, said either come get the dog or I would euthanize it. She did not tell me the dog had bit her also. Dog was euthanized that day.
> I can see everyone is trying to make me a wicked person by stating my opinions. So be it. Like I said, at least my dogs enjoy life and can go wherever I want them to go without worry.And people on the streets or in my home or at dog shows don't have to worry about being bit because they walked too close to my dog, or looked at it.
> I am done


Let it all out, tell us how you feel. But don't take it all out on this puppy. YOUR daughter's puppy bit her daughter several times, out of the blue, her owner, owner's family. Then it bit YOU, and so you chose to euthanize. You did NOT euthanize the very first time it stepped a toe out of line. 

I have no idea why your husband was carrying a brood bitch around. I am glad that I do not pack my bitches away and send them to a stud dog owner's house to be bred. I go and am present at the breeding, but whatever. Bitches can be bitchy, especially when the hormones are raging and they are being carried around by someone they do not know. OFF WITH HER HEAD!

You are done. What does that mean exactly? Are you going to write an essay with all of your thoughts and opinions and then say, do not bother replying, I will not read it. Whatever.


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## bunchoberrys

wyominggrandma said:


> Thanks for the lessons.
> Lets see if I can clear up what I have said:
> I won't own a biting dog, period. I do not think a dog should bite a human, period.
> 
> I have trained police dogs(sheriff's office) and they are well trained dogs, they also don't bite on their own decisions, their handler tells them when to bite and when to stop biting. Plus, I DON'T own them, the officers do.
> 
> Its fine if you want to own a dog that bites a child trying to leave the house, nip or bite,it broke the skin. (Bet the insurance company that insures the OP's home would like to hear why the dog bit, oh excuse me, nipped a child that was invited into their home)Own a dog that you can't take somewhere because it lunges at kids or attacks the windows of cars because it sees things outside, or bites because you walk by its food dish or growls and bites your 14 year old daughter. You live with the constant stress and worry of your dog biting, or nipping harder the next time and someone ends up in the hospital. You live with the thought of rehoming the dog, knowing it bites and find out down the road it attacked another child and did major damage this time. Just because a person didn't end up at the emergency room, doesn't mean it wasn't a bite. I get bit at work from the idiot dogs that idiot people bring in to be treated and even though they are bloody and skin is broken, I don't go to the hospital, I put myself on antibiotics and clean the wound.
> A bite is a bite. I deal with biting dogs the way I feel is necessary. I know where that dog is, I never have to worry about it being shot or given to another person or taken to a pound, I know because I sat with the dog while it was being euthanized.
> Now, before anyone jumps on what I just said and says I contridicted myself, my daughter bought a Sheltie puppy from one of the top breeders in the country for my granddaughter. Both my daughter and granddaughter have been brought up around dogs, both know how to train a dog. This puppy, at 6 months old started biting for no reason. Granddaughter sitting on floor of bedroom, dog jumping off bed and biting. Granddaughter walking down hallway , dog attacks. I brought the dog into my house to see if I could figure out what was going on. Dog and I were outside working on some heeling and sitting. I started walking , asked dog to heal and it jumped up and tore my pants and drew blood.. Dog was euthanized the same day. I brought a bitch home from a breeder to breed to one of my males. My hubby who has been around dogs for years was carrying her to the yard, she looked at him and attacked. He had marks under his eye and across his cheek, swelled up and turned black and blue like he had been hit with a baseball bat.(this was also a Sheltie) I called the owner, said either come get the dog or I would euthanize it. She did not tell me the dog had bit her also. Dog was euthanized that day.
> I can see everyone is trying to make me a wicked person by stating my opinions. So be it. Like I said, at least my dogs enjoy life and can go wherever I want them to go without worry.And people on the streets or in my home or at dog shows don't have to worry about being bit because they walked too close to my dog, or looked at it.
> I am done


:thumbup: I totally agree. I don't understand the excuses. "Its a nip". No, that would constitute as a bite. Sorry. I bet if the parent would have taken the child to the doctor he would say it was a bite and then it would be turned over to the authorities.
And doesn't anyone find it odd that the dog didn't show any warning? No growl, change in body language, no barking, hair standing up, etc. Nothing. He got up and bit.You ask any experienced dog owner and they will tell you that those dogs that do not show signals are the most dangerous.


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## JakodaCD OA

sue I think she was saying the dog that bit and the dog her husband was carrying were shelties.. and well all the shelties I know anyhow, (and it's quite a few) tend to be a little weird with especially people they don't know


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## wyominggrandma

My daughter lived states away from me, if its any of your business. When I was able to drive to get the puppy and take it to my home, then it attacked again, then yes I did have it euthanized. She was not able to do it financially but knew it needed to be done.
He was carrying a 20 lb brood bitch to put in a kennel after an 18 hour drive, I was carrying dogs also to put in kennels. 
Yes I am done. I have tried to explain, I have tried to get to the smallest detail to make my wordings acceptable to you, didn't know I had to explain WHY my husband was carrying a dog or WHY my daughter did not put the dog down. Didn't know why the smallest detail matters, I was explaining why I have done the things I have done.
Excuse me for not being perfect selzer, like obviously you must be. I said I was done, because even if I try to reply, someone like you has to pick apart everything I say.
Yes, I am done, I will not reply again. I don't give a fig if you want to reply and reply and reply, I realize you are perfect and know all and therefore can pick apart what I say.


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## suzzyq01

This thread is ridiculous. Well, the poster is ridiculous. I think you should remember than even though we have domesticated these animals they are exactly that, animals. 

For the most part the animals can be trained, some required a special type of owner. I would not get an unbalanced high drive freight train of a dog if I had little kids. If that is what I ended up with I would find a home fit for the dog. 

Some police departments use these kinds of dogs, they are insane, like no one but their handler and will bite anyone who comes near them or their handler. Watch Broward County K9: Unleashed. This dog is a fantastic working dog but his partner can't ride in the same car or even pet the dog because he will bite him. Does this make him a bad dog, **** no. He is an insane tracker! 


There aren't bad dogs, just bad people.


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## selzer

JakodaCD OA said:


> sue I think she was saying the dog that bit and the dog her husband was carrying were shelties.. and well all the shelties I know anyhow, (and it's quite a few) tend to be a little weird with especially people they don't know


I agree with that, and I really only knew shelties of one person (I thought it was the person). But I still do not think you should be carrying around a brood bitch who is in heat there for breeding. Why is he carrying her. If she cannot walk why are they breeding her? What is up with that? 

Even small dogs should not be lifted and carried around by strangers. 

Or am I just nuts?


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## wyominggrandma

Okay, I am replying again. I said the bitch was there to be bred, I DID NOT say she was in heat... We were unloading a bunch of dogs, it was snowing, it was well past dark and below zero, wanted to get the dogs into dry kennels to run around after the long drive. This dog was not a stranger, had been to our home numerous times before. What is wrong with carrying dogs from a van to dry kennels after a long trip?????

What is your problem with me? I have never done a thing to be nasty to you, I am really tired of you questioning everything I have said, and since when does a person have to ask permission to carry small dogs from a van to a kennel? Why should I have to explain that, why have you asked questions like I am so stupid moron" whats up with that"??? I am not some newbie to the dog world, to training or to breeding, but everything I have said you have had a smart alec comment for .. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AGAIN SELZER.


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## Samba

My kids grew up with dogs. Sometimes, usually a bitch, would look after them. Also, try to stop them from doing things dogs thought they shouldn't, etc. I am sure they felt some teeths but not a bite per se. I asked my son if the the dogs ever bit him. He says no he was never truly bitten by a German Shepherd. Of course, he says he was bitten by the toy poodle. Old toy poodle with arthritis. If the kids did things that hurt him he would object. 

I didn't euthanize poor old tired poodle but did try to protect him and kids knew they had done what they were told not to.

I am sure those boys had a GSD mouth on them, but they didn't perceive a bite like they knew they got from poodle dude. There are gradations of mouthing behavior and my kids could always tell what was what. They are now good readers of dogs.

My brothers Pug is a nasty one trying to control their coming and going. She does none of this when I intervene. Euthanize her, no, but family needs help with dog training and relationship. She is not an aggressive bomb ready to go off but acts out at leaving behavior.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> My daughter lived states away from me, if its any of your business. When I was able to drive to get the puppy and take it to my home, then it attacked again, then yes I did have it euthanized. She was not able to do it financially but knew it needed to be done.
> He was carrying a 20 lb brood bitch to put in a kennel after an 18 hour drive, I was carrying dogs also to put in kennels.
> Yes I am done. I have tried to explain, I have tried to get to the smallest detail to make my wordings acceptable to you, didn't know I had to explain WHY my husband was carrying a dog or WHY my daughter did not put the dog down. Didn't know why the smallest detail matters, I was explaining why I have done the things I have done.
> Excuse me for not being perfect selzer, like obviously you must be. I said I was done, because even if I try to reply, someone like you has to pick apart everything I say.
> Yes, I am done, I will not reply again. I don't give a fig if you want to reply and reply and reply, I realize you are perfect and know all and therefore can pick apart what I say.


No, I just think you are wrong about this puppy. Not about your daughter's puppy, but that pup was given more than one opportunity and more than one ownership style. The bitch in heat, well, I do not carry around my own adults unless there is a problem. I probably would not carry a dog I do not know.

Some of us come on as if our opinion is how it ought to be, and we speak with great authority, I am countering your authoritative post about putting down the puppy. That is all. We do not all have to agree, but when someone comes on strongly advocating a puppy be euthanized, others can strongly advocate against it.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Okay, I am replying again. I said the bitch was there to be bred, I DID NOT say she was in heat... We were unloading a bunch of dogs, it was snowing, it was well past dark and below zero, wanted to get the dogs into dry kennels to run around after the long drive. This dog was not a stranger, had been to our home numerous times before. What is wrong with carrying dogs from a van to dry kennels after a long trip?????
> 
> What is your problem with me? I have never done a thing to be nasty to you, I am really tired of you questioning everything I have said, and since when does a person have to ask permission to carry small dogs from a van to a kennel? Why should I have to explain that, why have you asked questions like I am so stupid moron" whats up with that"??? I am not some newbie to the dog world, to training or to breeding, but everything I have said you have had a smart alec comment for .. *DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AGAIN SELZER*.


LOL! Really it brings up more questions, but this is not the time or the place.


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## wyominggrandma

As I said" SHE WAS NOT IN HEAT. I never said MY HUSBAND WAS A STRANGER TO HER... YOU KEEP SAYING THAT.


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## Samba

Please, let us not allow things to degrade to a personal level. Discussion and viewpoints are great.

Dr. Ian Dunbar's Dog Bite Scale below:

http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian Dunbar Dog Bite Scale.pdf


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## wyominggrandma

I am sorry, but Selzer just continues to comment about why a stranger was carrying a dog in heat and basically saying it was dumb and I have tried to say over and over the person was my husband, was not a stranger to the dog and she was not in heat . Just trying to keep the story straight and my reasons for euthanizing biting dogs, but Selzer keeps changing the wording and making it seem like I never gave the dogs a chance.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> As I said" SHE WAS NOT IN HEAT. I never said MY HUSBAND WAS A STRANGER TO HER... YOU KEEP SAYING THAT.


I was writing my post while you were writing yours about her not being in heat, and that you knew the dog. What do you expect: You said the bitch was there to be bred. That SOUNDS like she is in heat.


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## suzzyq01

Did you ever think the dog was in pain? Needed to pee/poop? Was being carried and nipped because they can't say OW STOP THAT! 

I just don't know. Some many factors, we are hearing your side of the story, there are ALWAYS two sides to every story. So who knows. 

Dogs were most likely euthanized for lack of investigation as to why the bite occurred in the first place. Nor do I get the feeling you wanted to investigate why, just put the dog down.

My friend had a 2 year old lab that went into renal failure and no one knew so all the toxins backed up into his system and he mauled her and her two GSD's only because the dog went crazy from the toxin back up.


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## RebelGSD

wyominggrandma said:


> What is your problem with me? I have never done a thing to be nasty to you, I am really tired of you questioning everything I have said, and since when does a person have to ask permission to carry small dogs from a van to a kennel? Why should I have to explain that, why have you asked questions like I am so stupid moron" whats up with that"??? I am not some newbie to the dog world, to training or to breeding, but everything I have said you have had a smart alec comment for .. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AGAIN SELZER.


Maybe, if you read your own posts, you would notice that they are about you being the best, knowing the best and doing the best. This is not the first time you are attacking members (this time the OP for not killing her puppy) and boasting how much better your ways are. Why are you surprised that members question your claims and statements? 
Those who like to dish out criticism should also be prepared to take some questioning and criticism.


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## selzer

suzzyq01 said:


> Did you ever think the dog was in pain? Needed to pee/poop? Was being carried and nipped because they can't say OW STOP THAT!
> 
> I just don't know. Some many factors, we are hearing your side of the story, there are ALWAYS two sides to every story. So who knows.
> 
> Dogs were most likely euthanized for lack of investigation as to why the bite occurred in the first place. Nor do I get the feeling you wanted to investigate why, just put the dog down.
> 
> My friend had a 2 year old lab that went into renal failure and no one knew so all the toxins backed up into his system and he mauled her and her two GSD's only because the dog went crazy from the toxin back up.


Agree.

A friend of mine told me once (she is has been a breeder forever and has more stories than me) about a dog that bit the two year old. The parents were horrified. They took the dog to the vet to be put down. They had the dog on the table, when someone noticed something funny in the dog's ear. The dog had a pencil shoved all the way into his ear. 

That HAD to be painful. 

It would be sad to put a dog down for a thing like that.


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## Samba

There have been issues with the dog. There is a picture of dog temperament and owner dynamic that should be evaluated and adreesed.

According to the description, this incident does not fall into Dr. Dunbar"s scale of a dog bite that suggests euthanasia as the approach to it. I like many of Dr. dunbar's approaches.


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## CassandGunnar

All of arguing and bickering aside, I would just like to point out that the OP made a decision to re-home dog on page 5 and this thread is now on page 11.

Just sayin'.


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## Zoeys mom

I just don't think in this case euthanasia should even be considered as I said in my first post. THIS WAS NOT A BITE period. The dog grabbed the girls arm as she was trying to leave and the girl pulled away in fear scratching her- a bite is a lot different than wrongful mouthing which is what happened. If my dog tore into some child unprovoked seriously biting them without there being a medical condition I would put her down myself, but for arm grabbing really? I know my GSD has grabbed my arms, legs, and ponytail once in play before she knew better. She would chomp my children's little feet and hands every chance she got till she was about 10 months but has never bit down....I know I am not alone here either. 

Crate the dog when company comes until you get him settled he's behaving like a normal puppy


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## Samba

Yes, I think the OP has probably made their decision, taken actio, whatever. The thread did generate discussion beyond the OPs scenario. 

I think it is not all bad to look at the gradation of biting and suggestions and analysis as there are many ideas about aggression. Still liking Ian's scale myself!

http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian Dunbar Dog Bite Scale.pdf

I also would not be The Queen of Hearts in this instance.


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## suzzyq01

wyominggrandma said:


> Thanks for the lessons.
> Now, before anyone jumps on what I just said and says I contridicted myself, my daughter bought a Sheltie puppy from one of the top breeders in the country for my granddaughter. Both my daughter and granddaughter have been brought up around dogs, both know how to train a dog. This puppy, at 6 months old started biting for no reason. Granddaughter sitting on floor of bedroom, dog jumping off bed and biting. Granddaughter walking down hallway , dog attacks. I brought the dog into my house to see if I could figure out what was going on. Dog and I were outside working on some heeling and sitting. I started walking , asked dog to heal and it jumped up and tore my pants and drew blood.. Dog was euthanized the same day. I brought a bitch home from a breeder to breed to one of my males. My hubby who has been around dogs for years was carrying her to the yard, she looked at him and attacked. He had marks under his eye and across his cheek, swelled up and turned black and blue like he had been hit with a baseball bat.(this was also a Sheltie) I called the owner, said either come get the dog or I would euthanize it. She did not tell me the dog had bit her also. Dog was euthanized that day.
> I can see everyone is trying to make me a wicked person by stating my opinions. So be it. Like I said, at least my dogs enjoy life and can go wherever I want them to go without worry.And people on the streets or in my home or at dog shows don't have to worry about being bit because they walked too close to my dog, or looked at it.
> I am done



In both occasions the OP says that the dog was euthanized that day. On page 3.


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## bunchoberrys

selzer said:


> Agree.
> 
> A friend of mine told me once (she is has been a breeder forever and has more stories than me) about a dog that bit the two year old. The parents were horrified. They took the dog to the vet to be put down. They had the dog on the table, when someone noticed something funny in the dog's ear. The dog had a pencil shoved all the way into his ear.
> 
> That HAD to be painful.
> 
> It would be sad to put a dog down for a thing like that.


Selzer, Did your breeder friend say if the dog just went up to the child and bite, or did the child instigate and come up to the dog and caused pain, or the dog was in a position to which it could not get away? There is a big difference. If a dog is sick or in pain it will retreat unless provoked or cornered. Its not going to just get up out of nowhere and bite someone. That ridiculous. The op stated that the girl did nothing to instigate, nor was near the dog, and the dog came out of nowhere and bit. So, I doubt the dog was in any kind of pain


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## wyominggrandma

rebelgsd, I never attacked anyone. I stated that I don't think dogs should bite, ever and used some experiences that I have had in life as examples. 
I could care less if anyone euthanizes any dogs, that is your choice. I have never said I was the best at anything and never would, unlike others I don't go around patting myself on the back saying I am great. But, I will defend myself when someone decides to change what I have written to suit themselves. When I stated that I had brought a bitch to be bred, that she had bitten my husband, Selzer immediately said that nobody should be carrying a bitch in heat, especially a stranger. Never did I say the bitch was in heat, I said she had been sent to my home to be bred and had been there before, I also said my husband was not a stranger to her. Selzer then decided to say "what is up with that" about carrying a dog from the van, why should she be bred, and on and on. I explained that the dogs were being carried to the dry kennels in the dark, below zero temps snowing after an 18 hour drive. Then the comment was made" maybe she had to pee/poop and was in pain.". I guess I should have explained that I had stopped numerous times during the drive for potty breaks, but I assumed anyone with logic would realize you don't drive 18 hours straight without potty breaks.
I guess that this list only lets you express an opinion if it fits with the people who have been here the longest and post the most. I am not an expert, but have had 40 plus years of dealing with dogs and at least 30 years of working with vets and trainers from quite a few different states, so I am not a newbie who knows nothing, nor do I spout off about how great I am, I post when want to say something or express my opinions, but now realize if they don't go along with all the "knowledgable" people who continually express their opinions , then my knowledge is no good.
Opinions are that, just opinions and a forum is full of opinions. I didn't tell everyone that everyone has to euthanize their biting dogs, I said I don't believe dogs should bite humans. I wont' own a biting dog nor will I give it to someone else. If a person wants to keep a biting dog, more power to them. My opinion is as good as the person who says" it was only a nip, it didn't count, it is no big deal" But the people who said those things post alot, so must be more knowledgable. I will be glad to take questions about what I have said, but then the same people asking the questions should not change the wording around to suit them to make it sound like what I said is not what I said and then ask why I do something after they change the wording to suit themselves. If you are going to question someone, use the words they used: don't change words: brought home a bitch to breed:, to her words, "why carry a bitch in heat".... 
See, nobody is perfect.


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## wyominggrandma

Yes, the dog that bit me after biting my granddaughter was euthanized the same day he bit me, but before it was done a full blood panel was done to see if anything was wrong. He had a clean bill of health, just decided that biting was okay.
The one that attacked my husband, after talking to the owner and finding out the dog had bit before, and I had not been told, hence the dog was being sent back but the owner wanted me to have the dog pts.


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## Jessiewessie99

Last time I checked dogs can't talk so therefore if something is wrong with them they can't tell us. The best way is to bite or scratch.

When my previous Max was still around, he started having issues with his back. I did not know this. I was sitting there petting him and my hand was petting his back and then he snapped and bit me. I started crying and went over to my parents. I explained to my parents what happened, we took Max to the vet and found out he had a split disk in his back. 

I would NOT put down a 11 month old PUPPY because of 1 bite. When I am the situation of a dog bite, I try and figure out all the possibilities of why the dog bit the person or dog and try to figure out how to prevent the dog from biting like that again. I always try and save euthanization as the last option.

I hope all goes well for the family and the dog.


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## RebelGSD

wyominggrandma said:


> Sorry, to me the dog commited the gravest thing a dog can do, bit a human. It is all great to make excuses as to why he did it: nervous, herding, protective of his family,thoughts of his space being threatened, the excuses can go on and on, but the bottom line is he bit a human for no conceivable reason and a child at that who had been in the backyard playing with your children.
> *My opinion will not be one liked by many, but the dog should be euthanized. Period.*
> Even giving the dog to someone else who might have experience with a bithing GSD or any dog that bites is all great and dandy, but if and when that person gets bit by the dog, or his family or friends, then they might pass the dog to someone else and so on and so on. Or heaven forbid, give him to a no kill shelter and not tell about his history and they send him home to a family where another person or child gets bit and so it goes.
> *The best thing to do for the dog is for you to do the best for him, euthanize him* and then you don't have to worry what might be happening to him down the road. You will never be able to control him being given away to someone else or being locked in a kennel or on a chain, especially if he bites again. I would rather be with the dog being euthanized by a needle than being shot or abused by another owner. Once you give the dog to someone else, you have no recourse if he is given away again and again no matter how many promises you might get.


You keep contradicting yourself. In your first post in this thread you very authoritatively said twice that the OP should euthanize this puppy. It certainly sounds like an attack and pressuring the OP to me (and others on this thread).


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## wyominggrandma

Because that is what I believe, but its not like I said" you HAVE To euthanize this dog. I said it should be euthanized because it bit a person.
I bow down to you and selzers vast knowledge.


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## Samba

Since we have gotten to lots of I's and you's and the OP has most likely moved on we will close this one. Some good debating did happen at times. We can start a thread on gradations of bites and responses to such if desired.


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