# Why all that bone and substance?



## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Is there some kind of benefit that I am missing to GSDs having "huge bone structure" and just generally lots of substance? I get why the showlines have big bone and substance, seems like in the show ring more=better. But why do working lines also tend to carry so much bone and substance? I realize that having fine bones is not ideal (like sight hounds where they tend to get a lot of fractures) but you would think that for a working (or sport dog) you would want something a little lighter, more agile, better endurance, greater longevity. Am I just missing something? Obviously not all WL have lots of bone and substance, one of my males is a nice medium build but the other is quite substantial and most GSD people I talk to think that his substance (bone, depth of chest etc) is just great. Why?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The WL's I see tend to be smaller/agile and not heavy boned. And they aren't deep chested like the SL's. 
Some of the Czech or DDR's have a blockier structure, but everyone that has those dogs tell me that they are very agile and fast. I've seen a couple who aren't and a couple who are....but it does depend on the individual dog. 
My male is a blend of Czech/WG and is not large boned, but is structurally larger. He is extremely agile and graceful, collects well in his rear. He has stamina, but also has an off switch. 
It really depends on the lines and how they were matched up. 

The dog should have muscle with the bone/structure to support it.

Can you guess height/ weight based on these photos?


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I do agree that most of the WL are pretty agile and fast for their size. But I really think their bodies take a toll. Compare a GSD build to most malinois and as far as agility, speed and stamina the mal will win every time just because they are a bit lighter. My substatial male is crazy fast, very agile (not very good endurance though) but he hurts himself a lot, his body is just not built for what his mind wants to do.

I would guess your dog at about 85 pounds, hard to tell how tall he is though. I think Havoc is about 25" and he weighs 85 pounds. Heres a few pics of him, second one is more recent. I really would prefer he was less substantial. I notice a HUGE difference in his endurance after several hours of snowshoeing or hiking in hot weather, compared to my other male who is the exact same height but almost 10 pounds lighter.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> The WL's I see tend to be smaller/agile and not heavy boned. And they aren't deep chested like the SL's.
> Some of the Czech or DDR's have a blockier structure, but everyone that has those dogs tell me that they are very agile and fast. I've seen a couple who aren't and a couple who are....but it does depend on the individual dog.
> My male is a blend of Czech/WG and is not large boned, but is structurally larger. He is extremely agile and graceful, collects well in his rear. He has stamina, but also has an off switch.
> It really depends on the lines and how they were matched up.
> ...


25 " , 75 lbs?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Of course Mal/Dutchies are going to be more agile... I've had a few decoys that are use to working those breeds get really toasted working my dog for more than a few bites worth. Kind of like comparing a GSD to a Rottie.
I agree, GSD's regardless of the line should not be overbulked so they can work(herding comes to mind~after all that is what they are in the AKC's description)and less is more when it comes down to it. Any dog can have punch/power if it's in their heart, they don't have to be huge.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like the look of strong bone and substance, but since I do sports like agility and flyball it's not really practical or healthy. I've been working out Nikon very day to get him into better shape for an upcoming tournament. SchH takes a lot of training and requires a dog to be in shape but not like agility or flyball. So, what I like to look at is not what I own and train. Nikon is "medium strong" according to his breed survey and I'd agree. I like a male to look like a male which I think is definitely possible with more medium/moderate bone, but for the sports I do, I can set aside my aesthetic preferences for heavier bone.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not getting another dog for 3-4 years but I do "window shop" (I figure the more time I put into research the better off I am.) I am having a super hard time finding dogs that are a size that is heathy for agility/flyball and long, challenging hikes. I'm just kind of surprised at how many of the nice working lines that interest me temperament wise but are just not an option because they are super substantial. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I like an agile/fast body with a mind that knows how to balance. It is a fine line, and I also like a bit of eye candy too! I have the best of both in my male, but he's not as driven/sporty as some like. 
BTW, he's 27" and 90# but wears it quite well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Be sure to talk to people who own the dogs and observe in person. A lot of people comment on how huge my dogs are in photos and over-estimate their weights by as much as 25lbs. Most people are surprised to hear Nikon's actual size. He is 75lbs (and I'm trying to take some off, he usually hovers around 70 when it's warmer and we are competing more regularly) and he is 24.5" tall. Even in person people tend to guess he weighs 80-85lbs. I don't know what Pan weighs these days but at 2 years he weighed 71 lbs (after weighing 68-70 lbs from 10 months to 2 years). Pan's father is not any bigger than he is but has more substance and bone, and a broader head but luckily (for sports) Pan's bone is more like his dam. My first GSD was a pure working line female and she weighed 50lbs wet. In our SchH club we have a few females that are 45-60lbs. Sometimes I wonder if dogs like ours that are very involved in sports that require a lot of agility and stamina tend to not fill out and bulk up like dogs from the very same lines that are also healthy and fit, but just not doing the same level of demanding physical work.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Ya pictures for sure can be deceiving. Unfortunately there are not many breeders near me to actually see the dogs in person. I find I get a better feel from videos. Staatsmacht dogs really appeal to me as they are super fast and exude athleticism from the vids that I've seen, don't know what thy are like temperament wise though...

I like males around 70 pounds, Odin is normally 76-77 pounds and 25" he's probably the least substantial male I've met in person (he's a little on the long side.) I know smaller, athletic dogs are out there but they sure seem to be out numbered by the "substantial" dogs. Most dog's weights (when listed) seem to be 80+ for males and 70+ for females. 


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

And ya pretty much everyone says my dogs are too skinny and need more "muscle" and I know for a fact that my dogs probably do more in one day than most dogs do in a week. They have lean muscle and stamina (and VERY little fat.)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is what the GSD is....if you want a smaller male, maybe look at the Mal/Dutch. Especially if it's for a sportdog.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Lol, because I don't like mals and dutchies. I like GSDs, I just wished they were built more like the GSDs in the 20's and 30's. 

I'm just trying to find WHY the WL people like all the substance. I was talking to havoc's breeder and told her that havoc was a whopping 85 pounds and she said oh that's awesome. I just don't get it. Longevity is a bit of an issue in this breed is it not? So why not breed dogs that are a little less substantial (not necessarily smaller) so that their body lasts longer. They are supposed to be a medium sized working dog right?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You should easily be able to find females under 70 but males around that weight or under 75 I think will be more difficult. I should say that I chose both Nikon and Pan because they were the small males in their litters. When I chose Nikon (the same day all the puppies started going home) we had all the normal coated males out and played around with them for probably 2 hours before I finally decided and the fact that he was the smallest and shortest coupled played heavily into my decision (I didn't observe anything about his temperament that warranted changing my mind). With Pan, the breeder made the picks but it was between three males and then I mentioned I preferred the smaller size and that helped her assign Pan to me.

ETA: I'm guessing the upper-medium size and more substantial bone don't matter as much as far as stamina. I think most of the other sports (SchH, protection sports) and work GSDs do don't require the same types of repetitive impact like agility and flyball so people like us have to think about swimmer's turns and contacts, but an 85lbs heavier boned GSD that is guarding a prison or tracking suspects can certainly be fit, agile, and have the stamina needed for the job without the consideration of the repetitive impact on certain parts of the body.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm not aware that the WL breeders are breeding just for the 'structure' or substance but what the overall dog actually is in it's heart. Of course the conformation is important, but big bone isn't what they search out.
Like I posted, many that I see are smaller...mine came from a litter of 8 and all his sibs are 20# lighter than him. I see many at training that look Mal in body with a tight skin/short coat and smaller frame. I wonder if they have some Mal in their lineage way back when. But these are usually from WGWL not DDR or Czech. I know of a litter on the ground now where the dam is what I describe, she's probably a 50# sable rocket and could do anything asked of her. Not sure that the pups will be like her, as the sire is more substantial.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If you look into Orry ( and Erri z Blatenskeho zamku) I think you will find smaller agile dogs. Based on my limited experience.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> ETA: I'm guessing the upper-medium size and more substantial bone don't matter as much as far as stamina. I think most of the other sports (SchH, protection sports) and work GSDs do don't require the same types of repetitive impact like agility and flyball so people like us have to think about swimmer's turns and contacts, but an 85lbs heavier boned GSD that is guarding a prison or tracking suspects can certainly be fit, agile, and have the stamina needed for the job without the consideration of the repetitive impact on certain parts of the body.


This is most what I am worried about. I also do a lot of very challenging hikes that are tough for a bigger boned dog to have the stamina for. Havoc has proven to me that big dogs can be very fast, but man I cringe every time he barrels into a tunnel or flies over the A frame! I haven't even started flyball with him and I'm a little scrared to be honest. Part of Havoc's issue is that he's kind of unreasonable and does not care if he hurts himself. I really like Pan's build and his breeder is one of the ones on "my list" but again not looking to get a dog for 3-4 more years. I am strongly considering a female because they are obviously a bit smaller, but I sooo prefer males!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I actually know two females out of Erri and um how do I say this nicely? Their temperaments leave much to be desired. But they are both on the smaller side, the one is super nicely put together and would be VERY good at agility, not my cup of tea otherwise though.

I wouldn't expect to find many WL breeders with their main focus being structure but I'm just surprised at the number of BIG boys out there. The thread on Bomber von wolfsheim got me thinking about it. The video of him to me shows a dog that is quite large and I wouldn't even think about trying to take him up a mountain with me! I was kind of interested about him because I have heard great things about what Vito tends to produce but both of the "big name" studs from him in the states look very heavy built to me. I just try to keep my eyes open for smaller built males, just wondering why they are so few and far between.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

How much is nature and how much is nurture when it comes to stamina??
Can you not condition a large structured dog to have all the stamina required for any sport?
I realize the toll of repetitive impacts and such,, but that aside, can't you condition for endurance and strength?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I have a puppy that I've posted for critique. People frequently say they want more bone....I wish they could see him in person. He has a ton of bone. For what I wanted him for, his size is both good...and bad. He weighs 85 pounds at just a year old, and he is SKINNY.

He's a very "dense" dog. Strauss, who weighs just two pounds more, I can lift easily. I can't lift Mahler for crap. He is not a dog I'd want working a pile of rubble in a disaster area. Dude is just too huge.

I need a larger dog for mobility work, but they're not ideal for agility or some of the other things I'm interested in.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My female is 23" at the withers and only about 60lbs or so. I think she is the perfect size for a female. For her SV critique at a year old the judge wanted her to have more bone, but I don't agree to be honest. I do like the look of the heavier bone, but wouldn't want to own a dog like that just because of the activities I do (schH, agility, herding and toting my dog around town).

My male is a blend of lines and is only about 84lbs and about 26" at the withers, he has good bone unfortunately he is not as agile as I would like or as graceful (I think this has to do more with his temperament than anything though... LOL).


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Whoops my bad the 2 small females I know are out of Orry not Erri


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yoschi's_Pet_Human said:


> How much is nature and how much is nurture when it comes to stamina??
> Can you not condition a large structured dog to have all the stamina required for any sport?
> I realize the toll of repetitive impacts and such,, but that aside, can't you condition for endurance and strength?



This is my point. It's not stamina that is an issue with a larger or heavier boned dog, it's the repetitive impact. To me that seems like a law of physics. A larger animal running at the same speed (because GSDs aren't really any faster in agility or flyball than other sized dogs) is going to hit a box or contact or land a jump with more impact. So, all other things being equal (ability to train for stamina and endurance, agility, good temperament, good speed....) the heavier dog is likely at risk of breaking down a lot sooner. Nikon is really on the line of the size and substance I'm comfortable doing these sports with, but since he is only an average flyball dog (4.4-4.8 seconds) I'm OK with it. If he starts getting faster I have to be increasingly picky about his technique and whether it's something he should be competing in every month.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> My female is 23" at the withers and only about 60lbs or so. I think she is the perfect size for a female. For her SV critique at a year old the judge wanted her to have more bone, but I don't agree to be honest. I do like the look of the heavier bone, but wouldn't want to own a dog like that just because of the activities I do (schH, agility, herding and toting my dog around town).
> 
> My male is a blend of lines and is only about 84lbs and about 26" at the withers, he has good bone unfortunately he is not as agile as I would like or as graceful (I think this has to do more with his temperament than anything though... LOL).


See that is what I am talking about, your female is BEAUTIFUL and looks like she could work all day long. Why the heck would you want to add bone to that? In my mind the only purpose it would serve would be slowing her down and aging her early.

You sure can increase stamina enough to be able to compete in pretty much any sport (except maybe sledding.) But competing and actually being "competitive" are two different things. Plus I am more talking about the overall wear and tear on a dog, the bigger (stockier) they are the harder work is on them.

(Lol, posted at the same time as you Liesje)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I find this thread really interesting, in many ways. I'd like to see some of the big name breeders comment- as I felt the same way as you, Kristi. I know the smaller GSDs are out there. Zefra sure rocks, and as I think we've discussed in the past- Lisa Clark's dogs are on the smaller side. 

I also cringe when I hear of a nice small female being breed to a much larger, more substantial male. What a shame in my opinion. I have all the same concerns about impact and wear and tear on the body. It's all reasons why I just couldn't pass up on little Jinks. But Pimg- yes, there IS wear and tear on her from agility from her weight/size. Good luck finding what you're looking for. Though they are out there- I think they are few and far between.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Maybe I will get lucky and a dog like Jinks will fall into my lap one day

I do really like Lisa Clark's dogs! I just need to get over my huge preference for males. The size difference between the two sexes seems to be quite different. You hear about lots of females around 50 pounds but I have yet to hear of a male under 70 pounds. My husband worked closely with a male military working GSD (handled by a Dutch soldier) and that dog my husband said was maybe 65 pounds, I have videos of him and he is quite small, super athletic. But that's the only one I have personally heard of. (No idea what kind of lines he was.)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

That was another issue I had. I wanted a female in order to stay on the small side, but also didn't want two bitches living together. One is enough...  I feel like I was really lucky (well, probably lucky; let's wait to see his hip/elbow scores)- but I did read above that you're not into Mals, so... hahaha!

Personally, and this is pure speculation on my part, even the really good breeders (those who I would consider really good anyway) don't understand just how much physical stress is put on a large dog in agility competition. I'm not talking about AKC, or really even CPE (I think breeders "get" this style of agility)- but if you want to do AAC or USDAA, I think that style of agility is foreign to GSD breeders and they generally don't understand the athleticism required. So they'll tell you that the 75-80 pound male was built to turn. Sure.. maybe... but not like _that_. And when they CAN turn hard, you still have all the wear and tear from Newton's 3rd law of motion. Hard to argue with physics. Just my opinion.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Kind of OT but Jerry Kiah at Kiahaus does lots of agility and breeds as well. His wife commented to me once that she (they) prefer smaller dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Going with a female will definitely increase your odds of smaller/more agile. My WGSL dogs have had LOTS more bone and substance than Halo does, and I don't think she's all that unusual. I guess I never really thought of the WL dogs as having tons of bone before, but I'm sure there are some out there. The DDR dogs maybe, vs the WGWL.

Halo is only 60 pounds, and she's a nice size for flyball and would probably do well in agility too. People in my club ask me why I don't bring Keefer out, and at 80 pounds (not to mention nearly 7-1/2 years old!) I don't see the point. He was fast when he was young, but he's nowhere near what he used to be now, and Lies's point about the larger dogs and increased impact is what I'd be concerned about.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm kinda surprised none of he breeders on here have chimed in on this. I agree wildo most people don't really get just how hard AAC/USDAA type agility is on a big dog. I do understand that GSDs are not bred for the sport of agility. But Xeph also had an excellent point about urban disaster type work, a substantial dog would also have a super hard time functioning in that type of role as well. Then there's flyball, at this point I can't see havoc (my 85 pounder) being able to do a 2 day tournament running full time on a team. (He would probably do it because of mind over matter, but he probably shouldn't.)


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Kind of OT but Jerry Kiah at Kiahaus does lots of agility and breeds as well. His wife commented to me once that she (they) prefer smaller dogs.


Thanks!!! I will check them out

ETA: Just glanced at their site, super stoked to find a breeder that does agility!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Forgot about Kiahaus. If you friend them on FB- you'll see quite a few updates from them. They do appear to have nice dogs!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> Forgot about Kiahaus. If you friend them on FB- you'll see quite a few updates from them. They do appear to have nice dogs!


I will do that, will have to look a little closer at them when I'm done work. My list of breeders to keep an eye on keeps growing thanks to this forum


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have an Erri daughter. Keep in close contact with her littermate.... and know of a few others. There are some issues to watch for, but temperament is good. "Happy" dogs, very agile, very fast, small. Little dynamos. 
My girl's sister does agility as well as schutzhund.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am one of those that likes my small females. There is something, though, about walking onto the field with a large massive male. It is an ego thing and IMO that is why people want big/massive/huge heads/etc because of ego and they like the look. It has nothing to do with being practical from a working standpoint. Large dogs, depending on structure, will have a much shorter working life than smaller dogs, even in SchH where their spines take a lot of punishment. OTOH, big dogs have more stopping power. So, if your main area of focus is man work or security they would have a purpose. 

Vala was sired by a very small male. Belschik was 60 cm and 68#. Nike, Vala's mother, was 57.5 CM and 67#. Surprisingly Vala, who is not a big bitch (56 cm) though very thick (66#), produced larger males than her mother, but also a couple of little guys. One is 72# and probably not to standard, but his sire was not a big dog. Then the other, from my D litter, was 75# and 10# smaller than the smallest of the rest of the males (who range from 86 to 90 plus). Actually in the same litter as the first male, I also got a MAYBE 54cm bitch that when in competition weight was 48#. I had some agility people really eying her. She was quick, very agile and cleared the one meter jump easily. Unfortunately she got injured so had to be retired. Yup, even the little guys can get hurt. 

Deja is 57 cm and for her survey weighed 62.8# of lean muscle. She got knocked for needing more substance. IMO, nope. Elena is about Deja's height, but only 52#. She isn't as thick in muscle as Deja yet, but she isn't mature. I don't expect her to hit 60#.

Friend of mine's helper has a small male that is barely bitch size. He gets teased a lot about his little male, but that dog will probably have a very long and healthy working life.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Just speculating, but I think most GSDs are NOT bred with agility and flyball in mind.

They have a heavier structure than, say, a Malinois, but I think GSDs fulfill a different role in the working world than Mals do. When you want agility and speed you use a Mal, when you want power you use a GSD, and when you want magnum force you use a Rott. Different breeds for different needs. 

There's also a spectrum in the GSD, ranging from light-bodied, smallish, extremely agile dogs, to big-boned, powerful blocky-headed dogs. Which is "correct"?

I do see the old DDR type dogs with their massive heads and bone and I wonder why that structure would have given them an advantage in the work that they did. Perhaps the dogs that worked the border needed to be heavier and stronger, rather than light-bodied and fast. Hopefully one of the experts can chime in on this.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Just speculating, but I think most GSDs are NOT bred with agility and flyball in mind.
> 
> They have a heavier structure than, say, a Malinois, but I think GSDs fulfill a different role in the working world than Mals do. When you want agility and speed you use a Mal, when you want power you use a GSD, and when you want magnum force you use a Rott. Different breeds for different needs.
> 
> ...



This is what I've been thinking as well. I didn't want my earlier posts to be interpreted as favoring smaller size and bone, just that when I *know* I'm going to try activities like flyball and agility I will be sure to select a dog who fits (literally), but I don't necessarily think that this is how GSDs should be bred and what breeders should strive for. There is *nothing* wrong with a substantial 80-85lbs male. IMO that is not incorrect. Luckily within our breed it's fairly easy to find a dog that meets one's needs, whatever size, shape or color we are looking for.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I like my big male more than by ego, because he is a good deterrent for people, only by looking at him. In my country you don't go around with guns in your waist unless you belong to a gang, so when I hike on the forest alone with my dogs, people think twice about approaching me with Akela at my side, while 55 lbs Diabla doesn't really impress them.

But Diabla, on the other hand, is perfect for SAR with her smaller and lighter frame, though I know a Brazilian military team that only uses Labradors and bigger GSDs to their searches, because 99% of them are mud floods and they say that too light dogs, like malinois, get trapped in the mud and waste too much energy, while heavier dogs advance strong and steadily using their weight like keels.

That said, my next SAR dog will be a mali, if I can find a good one, or a female GSD from light lines.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Lisa, I really like the build of your females! (Also love the videos of Deja working, she seems like a super female.) maybe I will just have to learn to like females, I just feel like I would clash with a female (as wildo pointed out, one bitch in the house is enough) Lisa any idea what kind of lines, that small male is from? I have been considering emailing you about your dogs, but I am still a good 3-4 years away from being able to take on a third competition dog (2 is enough!) 

I realize that GSDs are not bred for flyball/agility and they shouldn't be. I do agree that size can bring more stopping power (although the vast majority of helper take downs I have personally seen have been done by 65 pound mals.) BUT the GSD is supposed to be a VERSATILE working dog and big size will take away from some of that versatility (not to mention the longevity.)

I will have to look a little closer at Erri progeny, any idea of the size of males he tends to produce? I have to admit I have met a few Czech bred dogs that I really like the structure of, however almost all of them have been overly "sharp" for my taste. I do know that the handlers liked that, so hard to say how much of it is the dog and how much of it is the handling.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have met 2 Erri males, and both were small. One was a littermate to my female. I am not sure if that is normal for Erri.

My female and the others I keep in contact with are not sharp at all. Weirdly. Really, the best descriptor I can use is "happy." Wiggle-when-they-meet-someone dogs. There is a serious side, but it is not right there in the open. 

Now, I am sure others here have seen more Erri progeny than I. 
Lisa may have good input here???
Just speaking from my personal knowledge of pups from 2 breedings, and having spoken with owners of pups from other breedings.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Kristi- just an FYI kind of thing- forum member christinaekenn has quite a bit of experience with KiaHaus. She raised Hostile for them (at least for a while).


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks wildo I will look them up. 

Very interesting about the Erri progeny, to be honest I have just been skimming past Czech breeders because most that I have met are a little too defensive/sharp/nervy for me. BUT for most of them I don't know their actual lineage other than they are "Czech." One of the Orry daughters I know is actually too friendly for me, not a bad thing (I do prefer aloof) but she is quite hectic. Erri himself looks like a pretty nice, compact, athletic dog. Will have to track down some more vids of him. 

Super glad I started this thread, lots of great info here!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I guess a long time ago I ascribed to the thinking about size and longevity, working in SchH and so on, but not anymore. I have seen bigger dogs work for a very long time and have no issues and smaller ones who were done at six due to back problems etc. It depends on what is going on with each dog and especially what is inside the dog, meaning temperament and a level of toughness. I have a friend who breeds larger dogs and the physical ability of those dogs is impressive, to say the least. That is their temperament but also a correctness in the dog's build that we don't see much of anymore.

I think the problem for larger dogs in SchH is the ability of the helpers to catch them correctly but that is also the case with small, fast dogs. As SchH has become more of an activity for older people, I see this problem more often but frankly, even the younger helpers have a tendency to brace themselves, which results in the dog being jammed. How people work their dogs matters as well. Lots of people think they have to do one courage test after another at every training session. Not necessary and increases the possibility of cummulative injuries. 

I think overall, many of the dogs now are too small and while I understand the problem with breeders who want big bone and big heads and breed more for that than anything else, I also feel that a GSD should look like one. They should have a more imposing presence and therefore a decent amount of size. I have smaller dogs and some larger ones, the smaller one is rather impressive in how he works in protection but I personally prefer a larger male with the presence I just talked about. I have seen and heard about plenty of Mals with physical ailments, so, again, the size factor, is not something I feel automatically sets a dog up for problems. I am more concerned about my smaller male than the larger ones I have worked.


One last comment. Many of the working line dogs are starting to have the same topline as the modern show line dogs. This, more than size, is something I would be worried about. I understand people are saying that it is the stack that causes this look. I am not buying it, nor do I understand why working line people want to make their dog look incorrect in structure.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> One last comment. Many of the working line dogs are starting to have the same topline as the modern show line dogs. This, more than size, is something I would be worried about. I understand people are saying that it is the stack that causes this look. I am not buying it, nor do I understand why working line people want to make their dog look incorrect in structure.


I have a picture of my working line female stacked by an ASL handler. Overstretched.... but still looks like a WL, not a SL.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One more comment. I think we need to also consider the temperament of the modern working line dogs. Many of them have a different way of working which, IMO, sets them up for injuries similar to what goes wrong with the Mals. They don't "think" like they unused to and many kind of fling themselves at the helper. The larger dogs I was talking about are of that older type temperament. Not soft in the least, extremely powerful but not crazy high drive that leads to behaviors that can get them hurt more easily....and no, I am not claiming the old dogs never got hurt. The trainers didn't treat them so much like fine china though and the dogs were tough.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Presence! That is the word I was looking for!

I don't care for oversized GSDs, but I do want German Shepherds looking like so, not like a b/t or sable malinois. One of my best friends have a 70 cm. tall malinois, he strikes like a mali does but... he is built as a Thoroughbred and with a light head and narrow muzzle. As a result he has already broke 3 fangs with 3 different helpers and is barely 2 years old.

About the slope of nowadays workingline, I completely agree with Vandal. I've seen plenty of light female Showlines who lack agility because of how long they are.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I watched a certain famous trainer/seminar giver's Teaching the Retrieves video. This person had been campaigning a SL GSD rather than his breed of choice so I guessed that was the dog on the video. 
Watching that dog in the video try to clear the meter was not funny, but just truly sad. He appeared to have the desire but not the ability.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Anne you are so right, it does really depend on how the dog is built. A lot of dogs I see are kind of "loose" almost clumsy, I don't know how else to describe it. I have seen agility videos of one of the dogs you have produced (Kipton vom adler stein?) he is not a small male but man he can freakin move! 

I also agree with the over the top dogs tending to hurt themselves, in agility they describe those dogs as "unreasonable." If I could get another male built like Odin I would be very happy, it's jut proving hard to find one. He is quite reasonable and thinks about stuff before he does it which makes him way less injury prone but is still a nice drive level. He is also um "dry" only draw back is he is a little long. Odin is not small but he's also just not substantial like a lot of other males, he is truly a nice golden middle. Starting to see there needs to be more of those types out there. 

(Also not really fair for me to compare havoc's stamina, since he has a few other factors in play other than his size, dysplasia and a possible back problem likely have a lot to do with it.)


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

When I showed Akela, the judge recommended using him for dryness. He comes from Adler stein lines


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Concerning Agility, I think what most people need to consider is more along the lines of what I just said. Since , for example, Kiptin was sold to someone who does Agility, I have had more conversations about that particular sport and have come to the conclusion that temperament matters quite a bit. It is not simply about speed and size. 
While Kiptin is not a dog for everyone, ( due to his protective nature and the mess people seem to make with dogs like this), he is also a dog who is very in tuned to his handler. Meaning, he listens to her quite intensely ,even when high in drive. Therefore, everything SHE does can make or break their runs. She is a more drivey, upbeat, somewhat excitable person, ( and a great home). The first thing I told her after watching them run, was that she needs to be calmer, so what she wants, is more clear to him. You can have these discussions on the phone all you want without results so, at first, I am not sure she completely grasped what I was saying. She is now with a coach and as usual, most of the work is about what she is doing and the comments are the same. I think what Kiptin's handler had to learn the most, was to trust that he was listening. So many people overdo it because they feel like they are not in control of the dog. This was a completely opposite problem where the dog listens so well, if she looks, or her hand points slightly in the wrong direction, he will start to go there. 

Kiptin does not need a handler to load him in drive, that comes installed already. All he needs is clear direction because again, he is listening intently. I am not criticizing the handler, she works really hard at it and some of that excitement comes from trying to keep up with the dog. I am simply saying, that who the dog is and what kind of hander you are, matters quite a bit. I see this in SchH also. Where helpers are loading dogs who are way too loaded already or not reaching the ones with a higher threshold. The handlers are even worse, yelling at dogs who are listening and creating negative behaviors as a result. 

Last year, I was helping a man train the blind search with his dog. When he would raise his voice, the dog would screw up and no, he wasn't mad at the dog. When he was calm the dog could hear him better and responded so much better. When the handler was in control of himself, I could add drive as the helper and the dog was still very compliant and was more able to understand what was asked of him. I see the same issue with the out. People yell it , it creates some anxiety in the dog and they simply cannot out quickly. 

So, I am simply saying, size, would be more down my list if I was looking for an Agility dog, or any dog really. I like the dogs who listen but I had to learn to adjust to it after I learned to read the dog.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Anne, you have no idea how much your post hits home with me. I have just recently come to the conclusion that I have created a huge mess with my younger dog by doing nothing but drive building in a dog who is genetically a 10/10 drive level. He is also much like kiptin in that he is so in tune with me, he is so hard to handle because small stuff that I don't realize I am doing he responds to. I am taking a month off of all sports with him and we are working on relaxing in training areas, calmly looking at things etc etc. I also just need to enjoy him more as a dog, before we return to work (plus he's injured right now) Yout posts have made me think long and hard about my relationship with havoc and have really helped me to identify some of his qualities that I have been missing. Thank you. 

Trust me size is down on the list after 1. Health 2. Health 3. Temperament 4. Structural soundness 5. Working ability/compatibility with me 6. Size (don't care if the dog is purple and has 3 ears!) obviously there are other things that are important but just an example of the top things on my list of "must haves."


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are GS that are excellent in agility, and GS that are good in pulling, but the GS should no more be bred like a Border Collie than a Rottweler....moderate size ....not big or not small...jmo!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I totally agree cliffson, I'm not saying I want a tiny german shepherd or that anyone should breed for that. There just seems to be a lot of 85-90+ pound german shepherds out there. Is that still a medium sized working dog that is physically versatile enough to do anything asked of it? (And not have to be retired by the time they are 8.) 

Would live to hear of these big boys that are able to compete past the age of 8 or 9 if anyone has/had one, or knows of one!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The sire of my boy, 90 lbs, competed in the WUSV-WM at almost 8 years old
Irus von der Dornburg - working-dog.eu


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Beautiful dog! Does not look like he is 90 pounds, nicely proportioned. Love to hear about GSDs that are able to work into their older years. Especially doing agility most dog/handler teams don't really hit their stride til a dog is 5 or 6. If the dog needs to retire by the time their 8 that doesn't leave a lot of effective competing time.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

wildo said:


> Kristi- just an FYI kind of thing- forum member christinaekenn has quite a bit of experience with KiaHaus. She raised Hostile for them (at least for a while).


LOL, I didn't raise Hostile for THEM. I bought him as a puppy  They are great people. Size wise though, they have moved to bigger dogs. The last two breedings have been to Drago who is just under 100 pounds working weight. Hostile ended up being over standard and will be probably about 90+ pounds as an adult. He is quite athletic though!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

There sure are LOTS of nice dogs out there. I'm just getting super tired of hearing "if you want a nice worker that is athletically capable, get a mal!"

Does this attitude not bother anyone else? GSDs are supposed to be the ultimate, versatile working dog!

Maybe I will just have to create my own GSD sport mix (, that'll get people posting lol) I am of course kidding.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't think anyone is talking about breeding tiny German shepherds, but if you look at the breed standard there's a 22 pound spread between the high and low ends, and then a lot of dogs out there that are over the standard, either bred that way intentionally or unintentionally. I don't see anything wrong with preferring a dog that's correct to the standard, but more towards the lower end than the upper end. 

My next GSD will probably be a male, and I'd love to find what I'm looking for in a 70-75 pound package instead of an 80-90 pound package. Size won't be the sole determining factor, of course, but it might be *A* factor if there's more than one pup that would meet my other requirements.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't think anyone is talking about breeding tiny German shepherds, but if you look at the breed standard there's a 22 pound spread between the high and low ends, and then a lot of dogs out there that are over the standard, either bred that way intentionally or unintentionally. I don't see anything wrong with preferring a dog that's correct to the standard, but more towards the lower end than the upper end.
> 
> My next GSD will probably be a male, and I'd love to find what I'm looking for in a 70-75 pound package instead of an 80-90 pound package. Size won't be the sole determining factor, of course, but it might be *A* factor if there's more than one pup that would meet my other requirements.


Exactly! It is so easy to find a 100 pound GSD (which is incorrect!) but very hard to find a 70 pound male GSD (which is within the standard!) but they don't look as "imposing" so nobody wants one?


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I agree that I much rather take a smaller well built GSD than a big clumsy one, but it´s not the size that is the only problem, it´s the tendency to also have a more "showy" structure in the workinglines that is my main concern. Malinois is said to be able to work more years compared to GSDs as policedogs for example, I suppose their structure is therefore more healthy.

I also want a certain size in a GSD as long as it´s nicely built, but I don´t mind a smaller robust built dog like this one either, many would probably think this is an ugly dog but I think his structure is more in line what a sound workingdog should be, scroll down for more pictures.
Namnlöst dokument


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I can see wanting a dog on the lower end of the breed standard for a 'sport', but I don't think having one on the other end of the standard means that the dog can't 'work'. They are two very different things. And yes, for my wants, I prefer one on the upper end of the standard, not oversized, but not barely clearing the bar, either.


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