# naturally had to encounter a vet on our walk didnt i?



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Last night Shasta and i were walking from the house over the the C-store (gas station/convienance) on housing to return a couple of redbox DVDs. There was this guy walking his German Wirehaired Pointer. He asked to meet Shasta and if the dogs could meet. Supposedly his pointer is a military working dog dropout. He's only a year and a half old and the dog has a lot of drive so i'm not exactly sure how he washed out. 

Anyway, the guys turns out to be one of the base veterinarians. Whats the story we always get from a vet? They ask if the dog is fixed. No? Well you should spay her before her first heat cycle so she has less risk to develope mammary cancers. The risk is blah blah percentage vs. blah blah percentage. 

Shasta is 8 months old. I have no intention of having her spayed until she is at LEAST 18 months old. I want her to reach her full size like she's supposed to. Those horomones help greatly not having a stunted shepherd. The way i see it, the risks of getting her spayed vs. not having her spayed before her first heat are about the same. She's gonna get sick, then she's gonna get sick. Its just in the cards. 

Then he proceeded to tell me if our 6 year old male (Riley, who was at home with hubby and the kids) wasnt neutered, he needed to be to prevent aggression issues. Riley was neutered when he was 6 months old because he was rescued. He didnt stop growing and still looks pretty feminine despite being mixed until earlier this year. 

Don't get me wrong. the guy was really nice and his dog was pretty cool. I dont get to see very many german wirehaired pointers who are strictly pets/jogging partners so it was nice to meet him. I just dont appreciate someone standing there telling me all this. I'm the dogs owner. I'm aware of the risks ( i know a lot of people arent) and i've made what i feel is an informed decision. I dont care if you are a vet or not. He admitted he doesnt like practicing internal medicine and is more interested in surgery so basically he wanted another surgery case. But seriously, dont try to talk me into something i'm not ready for my dog to have yet. UGH!!! Some vets are really cool about it. Other vets are annoying about it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it works the other way around though. If you alter before the growth plates close, the long bones will continue to grow a bit and can produce a taller, leggier dog. Secondary sex characteristics might not be as pronounced, so you may end up with a bitchy dog. 

Vets will tell you to speuter, no doubt about it. I heard my vet spouting to someone about spaying, and saying but if they do not then we have those old age diseases. Well, I wanted to say, at least they made it to old age. 

Whatever. They must have altered 75% of the dogs on the planet by now, THEY certainly do not want to think that it is harmful.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple. We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. *Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple.* We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.


Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate. 

How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Hunther's Dad said:


> Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate.
> 
> How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?


 
 i'll try to remember that. I know its bound to happen again. haha. i'd like to know how they survived without surgery too.... i mean sheesh.... that must have been tough! lol.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple. We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.


I don't wish to argue with you but . . . Usually vets don't need to go drumming up surgeries. If the DO then it isn't going to be a regular ho-hum spay that takes 15 minutes to complete. It is going to be a laproscopic gastropexy or something exciting like that. But, maybe the on base vets are different?


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## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

Thank goodness you received such enlightenment on your walk! Bet you've never heard of spay/neuter before, have you?! Good thing you ran into him.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My female is hardly stunted, having been spayed at 5 months. Met a female that was over a year and in heat and my girl made the other one look like a puppy. I am glad that people often mistake her for a male because I don't like the look of bitchy bitches, although she definitely looks like a female.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't blame you for being annoyed. I'm not one who likes to be "preached" to about things so I know the feeling. And, I don't blame you for wanting to wait to have her spayed. I'm waiting until 18 months to have Deuce neutered for the same reason


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## Locknload (Nov 8, 2010)

selzer said:


> They must have altered 75% of the dogs on the planet by now,.


If this were the case, there wouldn't be millions being put to sleep in American shelters alone and who knows how many everywhere else.

I will preach spay/neuter for one reason and one reason alone: curb the dog and cat population. Now, I'm not a neuter-nazi by any means, but I will politely suggest it to anyone with an intact animal.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

selzer said:


> I think it works the other way around though. If you alter before the growth plates close, the long bones will continue to grow a bit and can produce a taller, leggier dog. Secondary sex characteristics might not be as pronounced, so you may end up with a bitchy dog.


 


PaddyD said:


> My female is hardly stunted, having been spayed at 5 months. Met a female that was over a year and in heat and my girl made the other one look like a puppy. I am glad that people often mistake her for a male because I don't like the look of bitchy bitches, although she definitely looks like a female.


I agree with Selzer. I think early spaying/neutering tends to produce a leggier dog than waiting until fully matured. They don't "fill out" quite the same way as the dogs that are spayed/neutered later in life.

Raven was spayed at 6 months and she is very tall and lean compared to other dogs who tend me a bit shorter and stockier (and correct).


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I am choosing to wait till Lakota is about 18 months. I have been preached to as well. What it all comes down to is there are responsible people and irresponsible people and I agree 100% that most people should have their dogs spayed/neutered ASAP. I can assure you that my girl will not get pregnant unless it is via immaculate conception.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

If it's so healthy, how come we don't spay and neuter people?
It really annoys me how they misuse stats to guilt owners into spaying and neutering. Yes, ovarian cancer is 100% reduced but how many other diseases are INCREASED because we mess with their hormones? Hemangiosarcoma is increased >5x in an early spayed dog... 
Why don't we pull out some other organs they're not really using because they might get cancer?
IMO, this is just a vet's way or drumming up future business.
When I had this discussion with our (male) vet about having Jax neutered he started to go on about pet overpopulation... I told him birth control is the woman's responsiblity... he had no idea what to say


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I agree with Selzer. I think early spaying/neutering tends to produce a leggier dog than waiting until fully matured. They don't "fill out" quite the same way as the dogs that are spayed/neutered later in life.
> 
> Raven was spayed at 6 months and she is very tall and lean compared to other dogs who tend me a bit shorter and stockier (and correct).


Jax too. In fact, when i asked if it would harm her growth, my vet told me that she would be "bigger" if spayed early. 

Someone just commented on how narrow she was this past weekend. He had "been around shepherds all his life"  and said she wasn't big enough, even though she's almost 25" tall and 65 lbs. There's always one. :wild:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't really blame the vet, the majority of dog owners out they see are probably clueless/uninformed so that is probably what the vet is used to seeing... IMO it is better for dogs to be s/n early than to end up with "oops" puppies because their owners don't know better. Obviously this does not apply to you-- but the vet had no way to know that.

As far as stunting their growth, early s/n does not cause stunted growth. Early s/n actually causes the growth plates to close later, not earlier. Research has shown a slight difference in bone length (2 cm longer in radius/ulna) for dogs s/n early. 
In males there may be a decrease in secondary sex characteristics (they may look more like an immature male in appearance) but I think that is not seen as much in females since it's caused by testosterone levels in males development.

I'm not sure what benefits there are to spaying a female at 18 months though. Most of the health concerns with spaying I've heard about for females are just caused by spaying in general, no matter what age. I know with males there is increased risk of bone cancer in early s/n but I'm pretty sure that was just males, not females.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never had a dog neutered and my
dogs have never had problem socially or
medically. whenever people star talking
about neutering i always think, show dogs aren't neutered.



KZoppa said:


> i'll try to remember that. I know its bound to happen again. haha. i'd like to know how they survived without surgery too.... i mean sheesh.... that must have been tough! lol.





Hunther's Dad said:


> Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate.
> 
> How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Jax too. In fact, when i asked if it would harm her growth, my vet told me that she would be "bigger" if spayed early.
> 
> Someone just commented on how narrow she was this past weekend. He had "been around shepherds all his life"  and said she wasn't big enough, even though she's almost 25" tall and 65 lbs. There's always one. :wild:


Raven's narrow too but she's 78-80lbs and people still tell me she's skinny all the time!! I've never measured how tall she is though, I'll try tonight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think their legs throw people off.  Proportionally, she's just right except her legs are long and it might make them look even thinner?


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Locknload said:


> If this were the case, there wouldn't be millions being put to sleep in American shelters alone and who knows how many everywhere else.
> 
> I will preach spay/neuter for one reason and one reason alone: curb the dog and cat population. Now, I'm not a neuter-nazi by any means, but I will politely suggest it to anyone with an intact animal.


Sure there would. The adults dogs that are spayed and neutered have to go somewhere after their owners get bored of them.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i want my dogs to fill out how they're supposed and WHEN they're supposed to. I dont want to spay or neuter early because of this. and the vet flat out admitted he was only interested in surgery. The base vet didnt DO surgery until this vet got stationed here which is recently as he wasnt there until just after Shasta's final set of puppy shots. I have absolutely no desire to have a litter of puppies in the house. None at all. Far more work and cleaning than i care to deal with. A single puppy in the house is enough right now. 

as far as growth slowing down because of a spay/neuter done early, i dont want that either. Shelby isn't fixed and she's 18 months old and looking like she should. Riley was neutered at 6 months and he is VERY feminine and tall. He didnt STOP growing up or filling out until earlier this year. People who have zero knowledge and are irresponsible, i would encourage to alter their dogs early. considering when Shelby was in heat this past time, she wore a diaper in the house and was on a leash when outside to go potty and no walks or anything outside beyond potty breaks, i've got the no litters from my dog thing covered. I just wanted to smack this vet by the time we were done "talking". There are risks with not altering and there are risks with altering. its iffy either way. My females get altered when they're 18 months -2 years old simply because i have no intention of breeding them and i dont want to deal with the heat cycles if i dont have to. i'd prefer NOT to have my males altered at all. They dont bleed all over the place and unless they're undecended, i honestly dont see the point. Personal opinions and all.


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## Locknload (Nov 8, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> Sure there would. The adults dogs that are spayed and neutered have to go somewhere after their owners get bored of them.


At least they would have a better chance to get adopted then if they didn't have to compete with the litter of puppies someone 'found' in their backyard.

More spays/neuters = less dogs.
Less dogs = less abuse cases, less abandoned animals, less euthanasia


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

but we dont live in a perfect world so the less this and less that doesnt even play a factor. if there were harder laws on animal abuse in general it would help greatly. However, you murder someone, you can still get released for good behavior. We all know breed banning does nothing but encourage other breeds to get dragged into the mix. Wouldnt be any different with spay and neuter. I think unless you're a breeder, a professional breeder, if you have a dog who has a litter of puppies, you get fined not only for allowing your dog to get pregnant but a fine for each puppy of that litter. But considering how things go right now, determining a professional breeder, everyones ideas on that matter vary greatly so its a topic for another time. I just get so sick of vets telling me to do this or that when its not absolutely necessary. I have a plan for when my dogs are altered and i'm going to stick to it no matter how much medical crap they spew at me. There are PEOPLE who are so paranoid of coming down with something. I've known women who have been so afraid of breast cancer, they had a doctor takes their breasts only for them to develope ovarian cancer months later. I'm not saying they're connected, just giving an example. There are ALWAYS going to be risks with just living. Surgery or not. It may reduce the risk of one thing but it also can bring about so many more issues that may never have come up without the surgery. Example.... Spay and neuter surgeries have been known to be the cause of incontinence in a dog that before the surgery, never had a problem. Incontinence has also been linked to a higher rate of UTIs because bacteria has an easier time being introduced to cause the UTI because of muscle weakness. Its life whether its a human life or an animals life; there are risks for everything. I choose to take the risk involved with waiting so that my dog can fill out the way their supposed to fill out and when they're supposed to. and if its in the cards for my dog(s) to get some form of cancer, well then its in the cards.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> I think unless you're a breeder, a professional breeder, if you have a dog who has a litter of puppies, you get fined not only for allowing your dog to get pregnant but a fine for each puppy of that litter.


Sadly, all this would do is encourage people to throw their "oops" puppies in the river


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

shannonrae said:


> I don't wish to argue with you but . . . Usually vets don't need to go drumming up surgeries. If the DO then it isn't going to be a regular ho-hum spay that takes 15 minutes to complete. It is going to be a laproscopic gastropexy or something exciting like that. But, maybe the on base vets are different?


Hit by car is a big one. 
Dogs eating bad things is a big one. 
Ortho surgeries. 
Pyometra. 
Bloat. 

And things that insurance covers - 
"This list comes from Veterinary Pet Insurance Co. (VPI). They compiled the data from the claims they received from dog and cat policyholders in 2009. Those claims also show that these pet owners spent more than $30 million last year treating these conditions - and 1 in 20 required surgery. 

Here is the list of the Top 10 Condition Requiring Surgery:
*Canine Conditions Total # of Claims*

Benign Skin Mass - 22,386
Skin Abscess, Inflammation, or Pressure Ulcer - 11,178
Tooth Extraction - 9,476
Torn ACL or Cartilage - 6,782
Malignant Skin Mass - 4,120
Cancer of the Spleen - 2,224
Cancer of the Eyelid - 1,848 
Bladder Stones - 1,823
Cancer of the Liver - 1,588
Auricular Hematoma (swollen, fluid-filled ear) - 1,577"
from PetPlace.com 



I am glad to hear a vet down there is trying to encourage people to speuter.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I must have an unusual vet- Stosh is 10 mos and I was ready to have him neutered and she talked me into waiting another 6-8 mos. As long as I do it before he's 24 mos.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I agree with Selzer. I think early spaying/neutering tends to produce a leggier dog than waiting until fully matured. They don't "fill out" quite the same way as the dogs that are spayed/neutered later in life.
> 
> Raven was spayed at 6 months and she is very tall and lean compared to other dogs who tend me a bit shorter and stockier (and correct).


Abby is not very tall and lean, she looks just like her mother who was never spayed.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Strauss is 6 years old and has never sired a litter (nor will he ever). It's not that hard to keep it from happening. If Mirada doesn't turn out, she won't be spayed until after 2.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Strauss is 6 years old and has never sired a litter (nor will he ever). *It's not that hard to keep it from happening*. If Mirada doesn't turn out, she won't be spayed until after 2.


 
exactly. Shasta wont be fixed until she's filled out. She's 7 months old now and she's very long and her hips are huge but the rest of her is still very goofy skinny puppy. but you better believe the minute she's all grown and filled out, girl is getting fixed.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmm. I'm highly doubting he's interested in spaying your dog just for the "surgery?" 1. They are very cheap. 2. He's probably (I'm assuimg military employee?) salaried so it makes no difference to his income. 3. There is no medical interest in doing spays from a surgeons point of view.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> Hmm. I'm highly doubting he's interested in spaying your dog just for the "surgery?" 1. They are very cheap. 2. He's probably (I'm assuimg military employee?) salaried so it makes no difference to his income. 3. There is no medical interest in doing spays from a surgeons point of view.


Vets are out there providing spay and neuter surgeries for cost? I am sure there are some vets that are doing this. But the vast majority are making money on spays and neuters just like they are making money on teeth cleaning, and every other thing they want to do to your dog.

I have heard that the increased risk of cancer from altering are the same for females, except for prostate cancer.

Vets are pretty quick to list the benefits of speutering, they forget to get too wordy about the risks which inlude incontinance, bleeding out if they did not bother to check for bleeding disorders, and problems with anesthesia, besides the added risk of cancers, growth/joint problems, and the like. 

I will spay if and only if my girls have a life threatening illness concerning those parts. Oops litters (which I do not believe in) are not possible here.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Hmm. I'm highly doubting he's interested in spaying your dog just for the "surgery?" 1. They are very cheap. 2. He's probably (I'm assuimg military employee?) salaried so it makes no difference to his income. 3. There is no medical interest in doing spays from a surgeons point of view.


 
Have you ever watched Grey's Anatomy and noticed how they ALWAYS say surgeons live for the cutting and whatnot? Thats about how this vet is. he is paid on salary because he IS actually in the military but the vets here get bonuses for certain things. Given that he is more interested in surgery and tries to stay away from internal medicine and gets "nervous" about internal medicine, he isnt a vet i would take my dogs to for a surgery anyway. I dunno. We wont be here for too much longer which means she'll be spayed in maryland. 

Speaking of maryland, for those in maryland, is anyone near the Patuxent River Naval Air Station and can recommend a good, non ridiculously priced vet who is good with GSDs and doesnt make a habit of making people feel like they're stupid? Anything beyond basic shots i would need to go out in town and i hate finding out the hard way a vet isnt worth my time.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

also the vet techs on base are NOT military and therefore are not paid on salary. They arent even civilian contractors. They're regular civilians so at cost doesnt happen. They have to get paid somehow. But thankfully it is still cheaper to do annual stuff at the base vet.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

selzer said:


> Vets are out there providing spay and neuter surgeries for cost? I am sure there are some vets that are doing this. But the vast majority are making money on spays and neuters just like they are making money on teeth cleaning, and every other thing they want to do to your dog.
> 
> 
> > Uh, and as I said in my post...this is a military vet who doesn't own their own practice.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> Have you ever watched Grey's Anatomy and noticed how they ALWAYS say surgeons live for the cutting and whatnot?


Are you seriously making an assumption on a vet based on Grey's Anatomy--a prime time TV drama


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Are you seriously making an assumption on a vet based on Grey's Anatomy--a prime time TV drama


Unfortunately many people do. It is upsetting when people think that doctors want to spay/neuter solely for money purposes. Really the $150-$300 for a spay does not make or break a vet clinic. I am willing to bet that the majority of vet clinics could survive financially without doing spays/neuters at all! 
Just for the record, I have no problem with waiting for a dog to age a little before a spay. 
BTW, you can bet your A*& that if I could get spayed, I would!

I know when my doctors get another spay added to the surgery list the attitude seems to be almost boredom. I mean most vets (where I am from) do 4-15+ spays per day 350 days a year. Even I get bored with spays and I don't even have to perform the surgery!

But if you add an FHO or fracture repair, you've got their interest! They will almost bring out the boxing gloves to see who gets to perform the surgery . . .


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Also want to add to last post . . . All the veterinarians I know spay/neuter their OWN dogs between 6 months and 1 year. If it is all for the money/entertainment purposes why is it they do it to their own animals? Believe me the vets love their dogs just like most people do!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Are you seriously making an assumption on a vet based on Grey's Anatomy--a prime time TV drama


*i was giving you an EXAMPLE!!! His attitude about surgery was exactly the same theirs is "MUST CUT!!!". He doesnt like and is not comfortable with practicing internal medicine. He admitted to being a surgeon over anything else. Just his whole manner about it was off. *



shannonrae said:


> Unfortunately many people do. It is upsetting when people think that doctors want to spay/neuter solely for money purposes. Really the $150-$300 for a spay does not make or break a vet clinic. I am willing to bet that the majority of vet clinics could survive financially without doing spays/neuters at all!
> Just for the record, I have no problem with waiting for a dog to age a little before a spay.
> BTW, you can bet your A*& that if I could get spayed, I would!
> 
> ...


 
*Given that he's a BASE vet, he gets paid on salary HOWEVER, the vet techs get paid by the income brought into the vet and the surgeries they're now able to do with this guy there is a paycheck. It may be a typical surgery but the fact remains standing there admitting you are interested in surgeries and dont want anything to do with the rest of the job and then spouting all this to me, does NOT encourage me to have my dog spayed here or by him. *

*Then you throw in the vets do their own dogs at 6 months to a year.... i've known several who encourage to wait until at least 18 months because they agree with the facts they have regarding early alterations stunting or slowing down growth. He shouldnt have continued to try and push the matter after i told him there were risks either way and we have our minds made up. *


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> *Given that he's a BASE vet, he gets paid on salary HOWEVER, the vet techs get paid by the income brought into the vet and the surgeries they're now able to do with this guy there is a paycheck. It may be a typical surgery but the fact remains standing there admitting you are interested in surgeries and dont want anything to do with the rest of the job and then spouting all this to me, does NOT encourage me to have my dog spayed here or by him. *
> 
> *Then you throw in the vets do their own dogs at 6 months to a year.... i've known several who encourage to wait until at least 18 months because they agree with the facts they have regarding early alterations stunting or slowing down growth. He shouldnt have continued to try and push the matter after i told him there were risks either way and we have our minds made up. *



No, he should not have pushed it on you. But he was only doing his job. And, yes there are veterinarians out there who advocate late spay/neuter. I just have never worked with one. 
I have to ask, was he a young or new doctor?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

shannonrae said:


> No, he should not have pushed it on you. But he was only doing his job. And, yes there are veterinarians out there who advocate late spay/neuter. I just have never worked with one.
> I have to ask, was he a young or new doctor?


 
he's a new doctor here but he's been practicing for the last 15 years. he just got transfered in about a month and a half ago. He's also Russian. I have no idea if that makes any difference. I know my history teacher in high school was Russian and he was pushy about a great many things. I dunno. He was a decent guy and i know he was doing his job but spouting journal factoids at me doesnt do much if i'm already aware, have stated such, and he keeps pushing. I swear i could just strangle people sometimes. Definitely like my dogs and cats more than most people. haha even Shasta was looking at this guy like "dude just shut up. her minds made up. its not going to change! I should know.... she makes me wait for her permission to eat when the bowl is totally RIGHT there.... something about training".

his dog was cool though. he saw a lab across the way and pointed without noise or quick movements like some pointers i've met. it was nice to see a dog who didnt go ape s**t over another dog in the distance.


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## bmasplund (Sep 7, 2010)

Sasha is almost 6 months old and we just had her spayed yesterday. Actually she is still at the Vet because my vet likes to watch over any surg that is invasive. 

I was on the fence whether to wait or just do it. I realized all the risks/growing etc but I had to weigh my personal options also. 

Luckily my vet was great and didn't push the spay on me. She have me info on why to do it before 1st heat and why not to do it till after 1st heat. She gave me a lot of great information as did some GSD people here in Minnesota. My thoughts were I have 3 kids and although I would like to have kept her intact dealing with a dog in heat would have been more stress then I needed which is the reason we opted for the spay. 

I dont plan on doing any show confirmation or anything. Her main purpose is to be a family member and to do obiendence/agility with my daughter in 4H (Dog Project). 

Some may say that my reason may not be a good reason but I did my research and made a decision that I felt worked out better for myself and family.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

bmasplund said:


> Sasha is almost 6 months old and we just had her spayed yesterday. Actually she is still at the Vet because my vet likes to watch over any surg that is invasive.
> 
> I was on the fence whether to wait or just do it. I realized all the risks/growing etc but I had to weigh my personal options also.
> 
> ...


 
see thats how it SHOULD be done. Not just trying to talk someone into something without the pros and cons for BOTH sides of the spectrum. i'm a confrontational person and very strong willed. It was really hard to hold my tongue with him. I have a pretty full house so i understand not wanting to deal with a dog in heat. Shelby spent a good portion of her heat cycle either on a leash under full supervision outside in the yard for potty breaks or she was inside wearing a diaper. When not wearing a diaper inside, she was kenneled.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You're lucky. Most military bases and posts are now requiring all pets to be neutered or spayed if you live on them. I gave a show dog to my daughter-in-law and had to write a letter that it was a show dog and could not be neutered. They allowed an exception for him, otherwise they would have had to stay off base. If you guys are PCS'd before you neuter him, check where you are going.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

shannonrae said:


> Also want to add to last post . . . All the veterinarians I know spay/neuter their OWN dogs between 6 months and 1 year. If it is all for the money/entertainment purposes why is it they do it to their own animals? Believe me the vets love their dogs just like most people do!


Not my vet... At least one of her dogs is intact. I can't remember if her other male is also intact or not. Both are hunting dogs. She got the intact one as an adult from a breeder. I'm not sure if she has any plans to neuter him in the future or not.

The only dogs I've had s/n were adult fosters, but I know my vet told me she'd recommend waiting until at least 6 months old to s/n my cats, ideally. I am not sure if that's something she would suggest to the average pet owner or not though, it probably would depend on what the owners want and whether they are responsible or can deal with an intact animal properly.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Deb said:


> You're lucky. Most military bases and posts are now requiring all pets to be neutered or spayed if you live on them. I gave a show dog to my daughter-in-law and had to write a letter that it was a show dog and could not be neutered. They allowed an exception for him, otherwise they would have had to stay off base. If you guys are PCS'd before you neuter him, check where you are going.


 
we havent been told otherwise. All we have to do is have their shots up to date and they HAVE to be microchipped and wearing a collar with tags at all times. There are numerous dogs on base who arent altered. Guess we'll see. I'd like to live out in town anyway just because the rules for renting arent as ignorant as on base.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

We never lived on Post except when we had to, (command). I always prefered living off post. Do check when you get orders if they require it at your new post. This vet should have just accepted your polite answer. Hopefully they have more than one vet there if/when you have to go in for anything.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Spay/Neuter is a personal choice and like politics and religion is something that shouldn't be pushed on any dog owner. As a matter of fact I find it rude when anyone even asks the question is your dog fixed. It's like asking what are your religious and political views, how much do you weigh, or how old are you? Not classy a questions IMO Any adult dog owner surely is aware they can if they chose spay/neuter their dog- it's not exactly a well kept secret. I also disagree with the opinion spay/neuter decreases unwanted animal populations. In counties where spay/neuter is or has been mandatory animal populations have not been decreased at all- just look at statistics in Montgomery County, Maryland where I live- wasn't successful. 

I have not nor will I ever neuter a male unless there are massive hormonal issues at play. Health wise it's just not necessary. My female is a year old and is not spayed. I will be waiting until 18 months or so before she is per my vets advise


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Spay/Neuter is a personal choice and like politics and religion is something that shouldn't be pushed on any dog owner. As a matter of fact I find it rude when anyone even asks the question is your dog fixed. It's like asking what are your religious and political views, how much do you weigh, or how old are you? Not classy a questions IMO Any adult dog owner surely is aware they can if they chose spay/neuter their dog- it's not exactly a well kept secret. I also disagree with the opinion spay/neuter decreases unwanted animal populations. In counties where spay/neuter is or has been mandatory animal populations have not been decreased at all- just look at statistics in Montgomery County, Maryland where I live- wasn't successful.
> 
> I have not nor will I ever neuter a male unless there are massive hormonal issues at play. Health wise it's just not necessary. My female is a year old and is not spayed. I will be waiting until 18 months or so before she is per my vets advise


 
exactly! unless there is a medical need or it would help tone down aggression i dont like altering males. Females as long as i can wait until they're 18 months to 2 years old, i'll have spayed because i dont like heat cycles but i want them to grow properly. I have no intention of breeding my girls and they're watched like hawks when they do enter a heat cycle. they're not allowed out of the house for walks and its rare they go for rides when they're in heat. I wish i could find a cool vet like the one back home that doesnt charge ridiculous prices. Some people just need to mind their own business. I mean we'll go to the dog park on occassion so they dogs can run around and just have a blast with other dogs and there is ALWAYS one person who will ask if Riley is fixed. I tell them yes but only because he was adopted otherwise he wouldnt be. They then say okay good, our female is in heat right now.... THEN WHY IS SHE OUT OFF LEASH AT A DOG PARK WHERE THERE ARE UNALTERED MALES?!?!?!?! Or they'll ask if the girls are fixed and they want to let their male knock them up. I know far too many people have Foot In Mouth syndrome. Everyone does on occassion but some have it ALL OF THE TIME! One GSD pup in the house is plenty right now. Dont want an entire litter of them running around like maniacs!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Deb said:


> We never lived on Post except when we had to, (command). I always prefered living off post. Do check when you get orders if they require it at your new post. This vet should have just accepted your polite answer. Hopefully they have more than one vet there if/when you have to go in for anything.


 
I prefer living off base as well. Living on base right now simply because its less stress. We're planning to get on the housing list as soon as his orders come through just because the cost where we're supposed to go we wouldnt be able to find what we need for a reasonable price and we dont want to buy yet. We'll see how things go.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

We keep Zoe in when she's in heat as well, lol I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to bring a bitch in heat to the dog park- they must be special


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> We keep Zoe in when she's in heat as well, lol I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to bring a bitch in heat to the dog park- they must be special


 
oh the people around here are very "special"! Last time we went, Shasta had gotten her 2nd shots a couple weeks before and there was one chick there who had just gotten this puppy and he'd had NO shots, nothing at all. he was nasty tempered and just a very badly behaved little brat. She didnt correct him or anything and she thought it was okay he be there without having ANY shots. I mean come on! Even the first set is better than nothing! Found out a week later, the little brat died from parvo. bet she wishes she'd have listened to the more experienced dog owners! 

I dont understand why people think its okay to take a dog who is in heat out. My dogs prefer being inside anyway so we're good on that front and they play in the house so they're not going bonkers over being confined to inside. But to take a dog who is in heat to the dog park with the possibility of encountering intact males..... seriously asking for trouble. I dont get it.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Your lucky then Zoe wants to go out and play when she's in heat and has a mini meltdown when she can't go. The last heat I walked her leash around the block a few times but we were encountered by our neighbors obnoxious 2 male great danes who had hopped their fence because she says their too strong to walk,lol She's special too


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Your lucky then Zoe wants to go out and play when she's in heat and has a mini meltdown when she can't go. The last heat I walked her leash around the block a few times but we were encountered by our neighbors obnoxious 2 male great danes who had hopped their fence because she says their too strong to walk,lol She's special too


 
if you cant handle the dog why have it?! I dont understand people like that! I was pregnant and restraining 3 german shepherds and a border collie all anxiously trying to drag me to visit my great grandma's lab Sox. I'm just slightly afraid of great danes but you better believe i could restrain one if we had one! Shasta has meltdowns when she's not allowed outside every now and then but she also hasnt started a heat cycle yet. We'll see how she does. I'm hoping she's mellow and happy to stay safely inside like Shelby. Watch.... it'll be my luck that she'll get her first heat and be clawing at the doors to get outside! lol.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

That was Zoe,lol We've only had one heat with her and though she adjusted to the belt and pad, she really wanted to play like normal and be outside.

And yes this woman is a rare occurrence here my county is almost devoid of ignorant trash, but a few slip in what can I say. She also leaves these escaping dogs out in her yard all day and all night despite the fact they bark non-stop and jump the fence. Another favorite is the fact she has a 3 year old and 1 year old children she leaves in the backyard unattended with the dogs while she drinks beer, never takes her dogs to the vet, and honestly thinks this is all great. Her dogs are both gorgeous and while ill mannered and intimidating actually back down when you approach them and ignore their barking. If you however, run away from her dogs like most of our neighbors do they will chase, corner, and mouth you. Not aggressive just really lonely I think. I bring them home to her on a regular bases using my leashes to return them safely. At 5 foot 4 and 115 pounds if I can wrangle them she can as well, but no she thinks the fact they self exercise is a good thing as well Like I said she's special.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The only person I want to have their dog's fixed is my friend. The dogs are BYBs,(They are mutts.) left outside unattended in a gated area behind the garage where you can hardly see them, they are not vaccinated with anything(Its the law in our city to have the dogs vaccinated for rabies, and plus a rabid bat was recently captured) she doesn't train them(her one dog has nearly bitten 3 people.), and she just recently acquired another female dog. I don't mind people having alot of females or alot of males. She really doesn't care if her dogs die from something, yet she is really mad that her neighbor down the street hit her previous dog that she couldn't contain or control properly. She also constantly complains about her dogs bleeding everywhere. I don't even want to go over there because I am not sure what her dogs have. Oh an people aren't home most of the time. I have told her 

My city has rules, dogs must be spayed/neutered, vaccinated, they must be registered with SEACCA(our cities animal control) and you can only have up to 2 cats or 2 dogs per household(the number of dogs owned is a stupid rule though. If you can handle more than 2 dogs than so be it.) I looked it up. I think people need to get the facts from both sides to see which is best for their lifestyle. My friend has none o those things. If she did everything else but the more than 2 dogs, I don't care.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoey's Mom, it does sound like they're lonely. I dont understand how people can live like that. Self exercise in the yard is fine but when they're escaping because they're obviously being neglected.... well thats a HUGE problem on an epic scale. They're not little chihuahua's who are running loose. These dogs could easily cause as much damage as a deer if someone hits them in their car. Its dangerous for all involved. Some people make me sick. 

Jessie, sounds like your friend needs a HUGE wakeup call. i agree with you that limiting people to 2 animals is crap. Least IMO it is. Colorado Springs, you can have 4 pets per household. However, there are sooooooo many people who have more than that and take care of them all and they dont cause trouble in the neighborhood that nobody really cares. Our east back home in Colorado, you can have a a BUNCH of animals on acreage and the more acreage you have, the more animals you can have. i just want to live out east back home because i can build my own house to my design and i can have more control over whether my dogs are offleash.... and i can have horses!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I agree with that, but look at all the people that breed and shouldn't,lol None of my males have ever instigated a dog fight and knocked up another dog- it's really easy to prevent. Separate, confine, cage, and lock- works really well in our house


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes her dogs are the size of deer and bigger,lol It's funny you said that because when they come in our yard my husband screams those **** deer are back,lol I grab the leashes and run them home to a woman that always smiles and says I didn't even know they were gone I guess they got their daily run. I cringe every time and hold back the yes asshat they sure got their run, but please don't pretend you have ever attempted to exercise them. If I were into miniature ponies and had the room they would be here


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> I agree with that, but look at all the people that breed and shouldn't,lol None of my males have ever instigated a dog fight and knocked up another dog- it's really easy to prevent. Separate, confine, cage, and lock- works really well in our house


 
works great in mine! The dogs start getting a little too rowdy and into the kennels they go for a nap. When Zena was living with us, she'd get a little testy sometimes and she'd be crated or told to lay down and stay. and Riley would be kept away from her. My only concern going home with the dogs for my friends wedding next year is Zena is social and friendly but there are some dogs she aggressive with. I know she'll be fine with Shasta but i'm not sure how she'll handle Shelby. Shelby is pretty relaxed for 18 months old but she's gotten testy a couple of times with other females as well. Should be interesting. Though they both know their BS wont be allowed so i think everything will be fine. man there are sure gonna be a lot of dogs in that backyard!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Yes her dogs are the size of deer and bigger,lol It's funny you said that because when they come in our yard my husband screams those **** deer are back,lol I grab the leashes and run them home to a woman that always smiles and says I didn't even know they were gone I guess they got their daily run. I cringe every time and hold back the yes asshat they sure got their run, but please don't pretend you have ever attempted to exercise them. If I were into miniature ponies and had the room they would be here


 
i would have a Great Dane someday but i'd have to get it from a puppy and raise it with us. Adults and i dont start off great with each other. And i blame Scooby for it. Scooby was a GD that lived down the hall from us in our first apartment. Everyone loved this dog. He'd been grandfathered in and the office staff thought he was just fabulous. I was checking my mail one night and Scooby and his owner came down to check theirs. Scooby outta the blue lunged and bit my arm pretty good. Luckily i was wearing my really thick winter coat but he still did a pretty decent job on my arm. I was livid because not only had this dog just bitten me, but when i reported the incident, he was allowed to stay in the building while our pet deposit was convienantly lost and Riley had to go live with my inlaws for a few months while our lease ran out and we moved to a nicer and bigger apartment. I've had issues with Danes ever since. though one did show up with a Shibu Inu at my inlaws house one day. He was a big puppy so i wasnt as nervous by him. He was returned safetly to his owners who were giving him away anyway. had i known that i probably would have asked to keep him. But yeah.... scooby has messed up my view of danes slightly lol.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I love the name scooby,lol These beasts have never really bit anyone, but love to charge and mouth. They know me know so when they appear in my front yard I come out with leashes and say lets go. Our first few encounters were not nearly as fun but they are sweet natured- just completely untrained and not cared for


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Angeles is still not fixed and isn't going to be. IN a year or so Jack will probably be fixed. Why not Angeles? Well, I need to store his sperm for later use - maybe not in a year or 2 or more, but maybe in 10 years or so, I might want a litter from his line. Angeles has some really wonderful characteristics and I would hope that would show up in a future generation. Plus I hoped one day to breed them for working dogs when I retire. But I'm rethinking it since there are so many German Shepherds in the shelters right now and who knows what it will be like in the future. My breeder is even stopping her breeding because of that. 

Cotton was fixed (they found a tattoo on her underside at the Banfield in NC and said she was already fixed so they didn't proceed with surgery). I hope they are right as this would be the second time I was told my pet was fixed and oops! I had a cat that was a rescue and was told, yes she was fixed before I got her. NO she wasn't!

But I so enjoy the lovely conversations when you bump into people. Like we are plain idiots or something. I had someone ask me at the store when I was getting Angeles fixed and I just tilted my head to the side and squinted and said, "No scissors are touching his manhood thank you very much!" The lady was like - "Oh...." Whatever!

My new vet said there is no greater risk with cancer between a fixed male dog and a non-fixed male dog (she just said dog but the only dog in the room was a boy). She said I never needed to have him fixed and loved that his head was so fully developed. When she walked in the room she said, "He isn't neutered is he?" I'm like, "No...how did you know?" And she said - "His head is huge - but in a good way....I like to see them fully developed."

So sorry for digressing....but I just read through this thread and thought - dang, you can't even take a walk without someone trying to give their professional opinions - has social networking done this to us or am I just realizing how annoying people can be? --- note: I'm sure I can be annoying too


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> Zoey's Mom, it does sound like they're lonely. I dont understand how people can live like that. Self exercise in the yard is fine but when they're escaping because they're obviously being neglected.... well thats a HUGE problem on an epic scale. They're not little chihuahua's who are running loose. These dogs could easily cause as much damage as a deer if someone hits them in their car. Its dangerous for all involved. Some people make me sick.
> 
> Jessie, sounds like your friend needs a HUGE wakeup call. i agree with you that limiting people to 2 animals is crap. Least IMO it is. Colorado Springs, you can have 4 pets per household. However, there are sooooooo many people who have more than that and take care of them all and they dont cause trouble in the neighborhood that nobody really cares. Our east back home in Colorado, you can have a a BUNCH of animals on acreage and the more acreage you have, the more animals you can have. i just want to live out east back home because i can build my own house to my design and i can have more control over whether my dogs are offleash.... and i can have horses!



Yes, there are many people I know who are responsible dog owners who have multiple dogs and cats. Then there are the idiots who ruin for everyone. My friend complains that the shots are too expensive and that the surgery hurts them and is too expensive. The shots are around $5-$10(depends on which you get) and she can get financial assistance if she really can't afford it. I told her the surgery is short, the dog is knocked out, and will just feel a little woozy afterwards(I had surgery for my appendix!) and the dog will be back to normal the next day. Of course she didn't have anything to respond after I told her all of that.lol. I told her she could come with my family & I when we get our dogs shots renewed.

I got another friend(I have no idea how I attract these people) who has a male dog, who is a stray, has aggression issues, marks in the house, and has a huge black lump next his man parts. She kept telling me she couldn't afford it. But she got him his shots, and recently said they are getting him fixed along with the removal of that black lump. But both those friends can afford nice phones, clothes, shows, nice cars and get their hair and nails done, and couldn't get financial aid because their parents made too much $$$.

I do have friends who can't afford the top notch stuff, but take a lot better care of their dogs.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not rich either but shots and basic vet care are a prerequisite for owning a dog IMO though I know not in everyone's. Where do you get such cheap shots though they run more like $25-$50 per shot around here. I order my shots online from Doctor John's and Foster cheaper than I can go to the vet and get them done shipping included. The only shot I get at the vet is rabies since it's the law here they can't be shipped in Maryland

Neuter/spay here is also closer to $400 though they do have clinics for the poor- I swear we're poor but they say our W-2's don't reflect that,lol


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yes, there are many people I know who are responsible dog owners who have multiple dogs and cats. Then there are the idiots who ruin for everyone. My friend complains that the shots are too expensive and that the surgery hurts them and is too expensive. The shots are around $5-$10(depends on which you get) and she can get financial assistance if she really can't afford it. I told her the surgery is short, the dog is knocked out, and will just feel a little woozy afterwards(I had surgery for my appendix!) and the dog will be back to normal the next day. Of course she didn't have anything to respond after I told her all of that.lol. I told her she could come with my family & I when we get our dogs shots renewed.
> 
> I got another friend(I have no idea how I attract these people) who has a male dog, who is a stray, has aggression issues, marks in the house, and has a huge black lump next his man parts. She kept telling me she couldn't afford it. But she got him his shots, and recently said they are getting him fixed along with the removal of that black lump. But both those friends can afford nice phones, clothes, shows, nice cars and get their hair and nails done, and couldn't get financial aid because their parents made too much $$$.
> 
> I do have friends who can't afford the top notch stuff, but take a lot better care of their dogs.


 
the dogs get their shots updated at the base vet because its cheaper. Anything major i go to a vet out in town. I cant afford top notch stuff but you better believe the animals are taken care of. The kids are clothed and there is food on the table. I need a new cell phone but i have to wait until after christmas. I dont understand people like that. "I can afford all this crap but i cant afford my dogs care so they're safe but i really do love them!" If there is ever a something that comes up for one of the dogs thats an emergency and we dont have enough in savings to cover it, we'd take out a loan or borrow the funds from my inlaws! I'd rather being paying interest on a loan if it means my dog gets to be a member of the family a little longer.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> I'm not rich either but shots and basic vet care are a prerequisite for owning a dog IMO though I know not in everyone's. Where do you get such cheap shots though they run more like $25-$50 per shot around here. I order my shots online from Doctor John's and Foster cheaper than I can go to the vet and get them done shipping included. The only shot I get at the vet is rabies since it's the law here they can't be shipped in Maryland
> 
> Neuter/spay here is also closer to $400 though they do have clinics for the poor- I swear we're poor but they say our W-2's don't reflect that,lol


 
Yeah, i do our own shots for the dogs at home and rabies at the vet since only a vet can do that one. Unfortunately, living on base, an actual vet has to do ALL the shots which ticks me off because i do my own to save money. if i can LEGALLY do it myself, i shouldnt have to pay all that extra junk to have it done in a vet office. We're poor. We're military! underpaid and greatly underappreciated by many. spay/neuter surgery, the cheapest i've found was $300 unless i can magically get an appointment with the low cost clinic 30 minutes away but they have a waiting list a year long. I can spend $8 to do the shots at home or i can spend $45 to do them at the base vet. I would choose the $8! Basic vet care we can handle pretty easily but if i can do it myself legally, i should be allowed to do it that way without someone telling me it doesnt count. So then i end up with over vaccinated dogs and a possible reaction as a result of someone idiot on their high horse.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I find it annoying when people ask me if Chrono is fixed. I like to respond, "Why? Is he broken?"


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Zoeys mom said:


> I'm not rich either but shots and basic vet care are a prerequisite for owning a dog IMO though I know not in everyone's. Where do you get such cheap shots though they run more like $25-$50 per shot around here. I order my shots online from Doctor John's and Foster cheaper than I can go to the vet and get them done shipping included. The only shot I get at the vet is rabies since it's the law here they can't be shipped in Maryland
> 
> Neuter/spay here is also closer to $400 though they do have clinics for the poor- I swear we're poor but they say our W-2's don't reflect that,lol


I don't know why they are so cheap.lol. Kind of glad, especially with this economy. 

I just looked up the site and prices. I guess they kind of went up(This is the priceing for both cats and dog vaccinations):
Clinic fees:

Rabies $10

DHLPP (distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis, parainfluenza, parvovirus) $18

Bordetella $12

Corona $12

DHLPP+ bordatella + coronavirus $35

Feline FVRCPC (feline viral rhinotracheitis, calcivirus, panleukopenia, chlamydia) $12

FeLV (feline leukemia virus) $15

FVRCPC + FeLV combo $25

Tests for Feline FIV + FeLV available; please inquire about cost

De-worming

Round worms $10
Tapeworms for cats $18
Tapeworms for dogs $20-$30 depending on weight

Microchip (tiny identification chip injected under skin) $25

I guess they went up, but when we go we get them done on time and go to an event where they do all the shots and they are around $5 there. My shelter and SEACCA both offer Low cost spay/neuter and my shelter offers financial assistance and coupons from LA Animal Services The prices at my shelter are a little more expensive, but you get the coupon, and financial assistance.

But my friend is getting all sorts of freebies!lol


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> the dogs get their shots updated at the base vet because its cheaper. Anything major i go to a vet out in town. I cant afford top notch stuff but you better believe the animals are taken care of. The kids are clothed and there is food on the table. I need a new cell phone but i have to wait until after christmas. I dont understand people like that. "I can afford all this crap but i cant afford my dogs care so they're safe but i really do love them!" If there is ever a something that comes up for one of the dogs thats an emergency and we dont have enough in savings to cover it, we'd take out a loan or borrow the funds from my inlaws! I'd rather being paying interest on a loan if it means my dog gets to be a member of the family a little longer.


Exactly! If you can't afford medical care fro your dog don't have one! I literally went off on my friend. Now I just don't bother unless they ask. I have one very good friend whom I go to for any advice, and she always asks me for advice on animals(Her name is Jessica too.)

My dog's health comes first and always will. If I know I can't afford it, I will not have the dog. My shelter also has a program where they will foster your dog if you run into some sort of trouble where you can't keep the dog and they will keep your dog(in a foster home) until you can get back on your feet.

Plus my shelter runs only on public donations and is able to provide all these services. Yet people don't take advantage of it, that I also don't understand. I am glad I talked some sense into my on friend whose little dog had a black lump near his man parts. I sent her a LONG message on facebook.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> Angeles is still not fixed and isn't going to be. IN a year or so Jack will probably be fixed. Why not Angeles? Well, I need to store his sperm for later use - maybe not in a year or 2 or more, but maybe in 10 years or so, I might want a litter from his line. Angeles has some really wonderful characteristics and I would hope that would show up in a future generation. Plus I hoped one day to breed them for working dogs when I retire. But I'm rethinking it since there are so many German Shepherds in the shelters right now and who knows what it will be like in the future. My breeder is even stopping her breeding because of that.
> 
> Cotton was fixed (they found a tattoo on her underside at the Banfield in NC and said she was already fixed so they didn't proceed with surgery). I hope they are right as this would be the second time I was told my pet was fixed and oops! I had a cat that was a rescue and was told, yes she was fixed before I got her. NO she wasn't!
> 
> ...


 
If we hadn't adopted Riley from the Shelter, and had just gotten him from his litter, he wouldnt be fixed. I like seeing a fully developed dog. if Riley werent so reactive over the top obnoxious when he even see's another dog, you would have met him instead of Shelby and you could see he isnt fully developed. He's got LONG legs and a small head. he's just kinda goofy looking. The girls will get fixed after they're done developing the way they should simply because i dont want a litter and i dont need or want doggie period blood to deal with. Beyond that, i'll take my chances of not having them fixed. its a 50/50 shot they could get sick either way. 

My dogs are kept under pretty tight control so having a male intact wouldnt be an issue. my dogs dont make puppies. plain and simple. 

and everyone can be annoying at one time or another. i get pretty annoying if i've been stuck at home for a couple days.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Thats it I'm moving to Cali stat. Vet care is ridiculous in Montgomery County though I could travel an hour or so and get cheaper care. However, with gas as high as it is and time always short we suck it up and overpay. We like our vet as well and they know our dog's which is nice, but spending $65 for an office visit and $50 for the three year rabies is ludicrous. On top of that it's another $45 for the physical and $50 for the HW test. It's a lot to swallow every three years with two dogs who of course go in sporadically for other things, but in the end worth it to keep them healthy and happy


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Zoeys mom said:


> Thats it I'm moving to Cali stat. Vet care is ridiculous in Montgomery County though I could travel an hour or so and get cheaper care. However, with gas as high as it is and time always short we suck it up and overpay. We like our vet as well and they know our dog's which is nice, but spending $65 for an office visit and $50 for the three year rabies is ludicrous. On top of that it's another $45 for the physical and $50 for the HW test. It's a lot to swallow every three years with two dogs who of course go in sporadically for other things, but in the end worth it to keep them healthy and happy


We did this with our previous dogs. My parents love it! I feel we are rather lucky.lol


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@KZoppa - now that you mentioned about girl dogs - I know for sure Cotton is fixed. Duh I should have realized.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

lol


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

shannonrae said:


> No, he should not have pushed it on you. But he was only doing his job.?



He wasn't doing his job, he wasn't even at his work place. He would have been doing his job if she had gone to him and asked. This was on a walk.

KZ, I understand how you feel, regardless of anything, I can't stand it when people try to push stuff on me.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> He wasn't doing his job, he wasn't even at his work place. He would have been doing his job if she had gone to him and asked. This was on a walk.
> 
> KZ, I understand how you feel, regardless of anything, I can't stand it when people try to push stuff on me.


 
thank you.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

I know when I am discussing animal issues with people outside of the clinic (or inside for that matter) they are free to walk away at any time if they do not want to hear what I have to say. 

I did not say this doctor was right but, they are his beliefs. It *is* his job to educate people on animal health (not saying OP is uneducated, I respect the fact that she want's to wait). Most who are in the animal health field care about animals both on and off the job. 

I am sure there would be different feelings if the dog was injured (hit by a car, choking, seizure) and the doctor was trying to help. . . . would it matter then if he was on the clock?

I just feel it is unfair to bash the doctor for trying to help. (I seriously doubt he simply wants to hack up a dog for lack of anything else to do). If you don't want to hear it, tell him to save his breath!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I think its unfair to act like the OP doesn't know what she was talking about when we weren't there. There is education and then there is pushing/forcing.

Vet doesnt = good at it and you honestly don't have a clue on how he is with the practice, but she does. They come in just as many flavors as anything else.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i understand that even off the clock they are still passionate but standing there trying to change my mind over and over after i've already made my choice isn't just obnoxious and rude, it's severely unprofessional. and YES, he would rather slice and dice and avoid the rest of the medicine. I dont know how many times i have to say that. Had you been there i'm sure even you would have noticed what he was blatantly saying. He wants nothing to do with the general medicine part. He wants to cut. Plain and simple. Be it a simple surgery or a complicated one. One of the problems with walking away from people here is they.will.follow.you. They will push and push until they convince you to go the route they want you to. I know there are people like that everywhere but here, i cant even walk over to the redbox without someone trying to push something on me. I've been "spoken" to by people who were Avon reps (hate Avon) and Mary kay reps (dont care for them either). The only people who leave me alone are the ones who afraid to approach because of the dogs. The ONLY ones i havent had an issue with was when one of the K9 handlers approached me to ask about Shasta and whether she's had any formal training. He was interested to know where i got her and what a GSD puppy was like. He didnt try to force anything on me, he was polite and just asked questions like many people come on here and ask. He's never been around a GSD puppy. Only a couple adults, one of them being his half tail boy he works with on base. The fact of the matter is to not continue to try and push something on someone after they have flat out said they know the facts and have made their decision. Leave it alone. THATS how people lose business and believe me, if he were practicing in the civilian world, THATS how he would lose business. One of my vets back home lost serious business because he not only looked down on people for not being a vet themselves but he continually tried to push things on people. I dont make medical decisions without knowledge behind it. I'm not some stupid person who just went out and got a dog. I research EVERYTHING. I'm the kind of person that refuses to go on just a day hike without a pack filled with possible emergency supplies to last a couple days on the off chance i get lost. I don't make decisions lightly.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> *I think its unfair to act like the OP doesn't know what she was talking about when we weren't there. There is education and then there is pushing/forcing.*
> 
> Vet doesnt = good at it and you honestly don't have a clue on how he is with the practice, but she does. They come in just as many flavors as anything else.


 
i appreciate that. thank you. i seem to be having great difficulty wording anything. 

I dont just single someone out for the fun of it. the vet was goofing up by trying to push me. I understand he was trying to be nice but there is a line drawn and he crossed it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, yours was at least a vet. 

I was in PetsMart with a yearling dog, and some rescue person came up and started petting him, and for about twenty minutes, she was just fussing over him and talking about how she loved the breed, and how nice he was, and on and on. 

I did not know she was a rescue person, then.

When another young dog came in, I said something about mine not being fixed... and boy did I ever hear it. "Why Not!" "Do you want him to get Cancer???" LOL 

People would never DREAM about suggesting that a person get themselves fixed. And let's face it, there are people out there, that simply should NEVER have progeny. But it is far too personal to suggest tying tubes or the old snip, snip. 

Could you imagine your DOCTOR walking down the street and striking up a conversation with you about how you should seriously think about doing that???

It could be worse. I hope it doesn't get there in my lifetime. Stop the world, I want to get off now.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

selzer said:


> Well, yours was at least a vet.
> 
> I was in PetsMart with a yearling dog, and some rescue person came up and started petting him, and for about twenty minutes, she was just fussing over him and talking about how she loved the breed, and how nice he was, and on and on.
> 
> ...


 
OMG thats funny! I've actually flat out told someone they needed to get themselves snipped because the world didn't need their stupidity gene passed on. I honestly think i may have laughed at that rescue person. Its like some stranger telling you what breed of dog you have. its just something that shouldnt be argued with the dogs owner. I swear i would smack people on a regular basis if it couldn't be considered assault lol.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i understand that even off the clock they are still passionate but standing there trying to change my mind over and over after i've already made my choice isn't just obnoxious and rude, it's severely unprofessional. and YES, he would rather slice and dice and avoid the rest of the medicine.


I apologize, I am just having difficulty wrapping my mind around that, as I have never met a doctor with that kind of attitude. I find it upsetting because it makes all veterinarians and staff look bad and is disappointing. 

I am sure there are doctors out there that do not have an animals best interest in mind. I hope I never work with one. Maybe, to burn off steam he should do volunteer spay/neuters for a local animal shelter. . . practical solution!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

shannonrae said:


> I apologize, I am just having difficulty wrapping my mind around that, as I have never met a doctor with that kind of attitude. I find it upsetting because it makes all veterinarians and staff look bad and is disappointing.
> 
> I am sure there are doctors out there that do not have an animals best interest in mind. I hope I never work with one. *Maybe, to burn off steam he should do volunteer spay/neuters for a local animal shelter. . . practical solution*!


 
i will actually make that suggestion when i go in this week for heartguard refill. I like going to the base vet. They're generally really nice and dont push things once you state your choice. I was actually very disappointed in this guy. Nothing compared to my disappointment in our vet before last but still disappointed. I hope you never have to work with a vet like that either. Would make things harder beyond the norm. But i will definitely suggest it. I'm sure the local shelter would be happy for less paperwork to give out when adopting out an animal. (long story there).


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Great recommendation for him to do volunteer speutering. That
is how we had Hannah spayed with a donation of course. I wish
Harley would have had that option. His neuter was over 200 dollars
in Georgia. 

KZ, I'd totally be annoyed, too!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

will_and_jamie said:


> Great recommendation for him to do volunteer speutering. That
> is how we had Hannah spayed with a donation of course. I wish
> Harley would have had that option. His neuter was over 200 dollars
> in Georgia.
> ...


 
since you're in the springs, if for ANY reason you ever get refered to Aspen View Vet Clinic at Constitution and Powers.... ask for another referal. They have been losing business for some time because they are not only over priced but they treat everyone that goes in like they dont know anything and shouldnt even have animals. My mom met one of the receptionists who worked there and when my mom found out where she worked.... my mom kinda laughed. Mom told her i used to go there and HATED it. The receptionist wasnt surprised. Crossroads animal hospital though i can say are awesome. the doc i always saw when Zena started having ear infections LOVES shepherds. But yeah, just and FYI in case.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

My vet asked me about spaying Minna (the last time we were there) and gave me the same lecture about cancer and blah blah blah blah blah. Needless to say I had already known the risks and decided that regardless I was waiting until at least 2 years old before having her fixed. It does get old to hear the same lecture from people.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

VChurch said:


> My vet asked me about spaying Minna (the last time we were there) and gave me the same lecture about cancer and blah blah blah blah blah. Needless to say I had already known the risks and decided that regardless I was waiting until at least 2 years old before having her fixed. It does get old to hear the same lecture from people.


 
it really does and its sad that they still continue to think its okay to keep pushing even after you've stated YOUR intentions with YOU dog. One of my previous vets knew i was interested in having a dog trained in search and rescue one day. He told me not to do it because they beat the dogs and use tasers on them if they dont find find the person during training directly. By directly he meant following the exact path. Needless to say i left his practice. Its just so hard to find a good vet that will let the owners make the decisions after they've been informed.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> it really does and its sad that they still continue to think its okay to keep pushing even after you've stated YOUR intentions with YOU dog. One of my previous vets knew i was interested in having a dog trained in search and rescue one day. He told me not to do it because they beat the dogs and use tasers on them if they dont find find the person during training directly. By directly he meant following the exact path. Needless to say i left his practice. Its just so hard to find a good vet that will let the owners make the decisions after they've been informed.



I guess I sort of do understand why they feel the need to explain the risks to all patients, considering the number of uninformed and dumb pet owners there are.
But for those of us that are informed and have done our research, it does get a bit old to listen to. I can't wait to see what she says the next time I go into the vet office, I'm sure she'll again mention that I should have Minna spayed.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

VChurch said:


> I guess I sort of do understand why they feel the need to explain the risks to all patients, considering the number of uninformed and dumb pet owners there are.
> But for those of us that are informed and have done our research, it does get a bit old to listen to. I can't wait to see what she says the next time I go into the vet office, I'm sure she'll again mention that I should have Minna spayed.


 
lol. i get it. i do. And they should mention it to the challenged owners. I mean, Shasta is not my first dog. She's not even my first pet. just sometimes i could strangle someone. Honestly, if i could find a decently priced vet out in town that either didnt give me the creeps going into the office or didnt give me the creeps because its got the very clean unwelcoming hospital feeling.... that we're going to make you wait forever for your appointment but you're going to feel like if you even sit down you've dirtied the place. i'll be curious what they say when i have to take the dogs in for their checkups before we move....


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

In my vet class I asked my professor about altering dogs later on at around age 2 mostly for GSDs and other big dogs, he said he sees no reason to wait, and 6 months is perfectly fine. He really didn't go into detail. :/ He was informative on other things and presented a good side of spaying at 6 months. But I would rather wait until 2.

Plus, if I get a job as a Vet Assistant and someone asks me about spaying/neutering(depeding on their breed, because little dogs mature faster.) I would tell themn to wait if they had a GSD(If the dog was under 2 years of age.) If they tell about having a litter before being spayed because they think its healthy I will tell them flat out thats not true.

Just based off the introductions of the other students in the class, I felt rather smarter. Some people sounded rather uninformed. Some eve basically even said I am byb and proud(they didn't say that, but it pretty much screamed it.) There were a few good people.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> In my vet class I asked my professor about altering dogs later on at around age 2 mostly for GSDs and other big dogs, he said he sees no reason to wait, and 6 months is perfectly fine. He really didn't go into detail. :/ He was informative on other things and presented a good side of spaying at 6 months. But I would rather wait until 2.
> 
> Plus, if I get a job as a Vet Assistant and someone asks me about spaying/neutering(depeding on their breed, because little dogs mature faster.) I would tell themn to wait if they had a GSD(If the dog was under 2 years of age.) If they tell about having a litter before being spayed because they think its healthy I will tell them flat out thats not true.
> 
> Just based off the introductions of the other students in the class, I felt *rather smarter*. Some people sounded rather uninformed. Some eve basically even said I am byb and proud(they didn't say that, but it pretty much screamed it.) There were a few good people.


 
i'm sorry jessie. this just cracks me up. but i do agree that a lot of people are uninformed (whether they go to school to be a vet tech or not a lot of times they dont really learn anything)


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Last night Shasta and i were walking from the house over the the C-store (gas station/convienance) on housing to return a couple of redbox DVDs. There was this guy walking his German Wirehaired Pointer. He asked to meet Shasta and if the dogs could meet. Supposedly his pointer is a military working dog dropout. He's only a year and a half old and the dog has a lot of drive so i'm not exactly sure how he washed out.
> 
> Anyway, the guys turns out to be one of the base veterinarians. Whats the story we always get from a vet? They ask if the dog is fixed. No? Well you should spay her before her first heat cycle so she has less risk to develope mammary cancers. The risk is blah blah percentage vs. blah blah percentage.
> 
> ...


 
I can't argee with you more! I posted about this a couple of days ago, some vets will say if fixed they will not reach full potential and some say the opposite? They must of had different text books in school? And then there are the people that say " I have 3 males and got them fixed at 6 months and they reached their full potential" ....really? How would you know what they would have been like if you didn't fix them? Anyway to each his own, I'm not getting my girl done till she's 18 to 24 months old.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> i'm sorry jessie. this just cracks me up. but i do agree that a lot of people are uninformed (whether they go to school to be a vet tech or not a lot of times they dont really learn anything)


Its ok, I thought it was funny too.lol. I seriously felt like the more educated one. When I asked about neutering later, this one lady posted in HUGE BLACK letters saying the proper to neuter was 6 months. I didn't want to get in trouble or start anything so I just didn't say anything. But when I saw that, I was thinking, "I am not stupid, and I can read just fine."


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