# Pittbull Tased To Death



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

*"Owner of dog that died after Taser incident says police used excessive force"*


Pit bull tasered: Pit bull dies after being tasered by police - Chicago Tribune


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

I think that they are lucky that the dog didn't get shot by the officers. There is no reason that the dog should have died by the taser if it was healthy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Tasers are only a "less lethal" method of subduing. They never said "will never kill someone (or an animal)", just that it is less deadly than shooting with a lead bullet.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

Yes, but what should they have done? This dog sent someone it knew into surgery because it bit them so badly. The officers could not safely subdue it with the pole, so what should they have done? Given a choice between a taser and a gun, they were right to choose the taser. It would not be better to beat it with a baton, which can cause serious injury. Pepper spraying the dog might have worked, or just made it more angry. Tasers don't usually kill animals or people and in this case I believe that the officers did the right thing.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

meldleistikow said:


> Yes, but what should they have done? This dog sent someone it knew into surgery because it bit them so badly. The officers could not safely subdue it with the pole, so what should they have done? Given a choice between a taser and a gun, they were right to choose the taser. It would not be better to beat it with a baton, which can cause serious injury. Pepper spraying the dog might have worked, or just made it more angry. Tasers don't usually kill animals or people and in this case I believe that the officers did the right thing.


I agree and my concern is with the female relative who required ER surgery & a hospital stay.

The dog was tasered in the kitchen, the owner was also not in control of his dog. I highly doubt an officer would discharge a firearm in the house but to taser the dog in most cases would subdue it. Who knows what kind of existing health issues the dog had or if he sustained injuries during the struggle to get him under control. The officer does not have time to sort that out.

It is a sad story.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, let me see, the dog bit someone seriously enough to require emergency surgery, and to be transported by ambulance. 

The officers tried to use a catch pole on a dangerous animal and that did not work. The owner seemed like he was having trouble controlling the dog.

The officer's go to their next line of offense and oh well, the dog ended up dying. At least they did not beat the dog to death. 

I am sorry, but I just do not have all that much compassion for the people who said the officers used excessive force. It sounds like they tried two different methods to contain the dog, and the second method shouldn't have killed the dog but did. Too bad. Now the people do not have to pay to get the dog euth'd. Now they do not have to go through the gut-wrenching experience of trying to save and rehabilitate a dog that bites, or make the decision to put the dog down. 

Would I want this to happen to me? No. But I don't think I would fault the police, I would be faulting myself.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but I just do not have all that much compassion for the people who said the officers used excessive force. It sounds like they tried two different methods to contain the dog, and the second method shouldn't have killed the dog but did. Too bad. Now the people do not have to pay to get the dog euth'd. Now they do not have to go through the gut-wrenching experience of trying to save and rehabilitate a dog that bites, or make the decision to put the dog down.


Totally agree. It seems like it's almost a blessing in disguise, as bad as that sounds.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I would be faulting myself.


Ah but in today's society nobody can take responsibility for themselves. It's another sign of the moral decay that our country has become.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Ah but in today's society nobody can take responsibility for themselves. It's another sign of the moral decay that our country has become.


:thumbup: and don't forget that everyone is a winner.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of my previous companies was big into the pshychological-make-you-all-better-workers things, and they had on the mirror in the ladies room, you are looking at a winner. In the men's room, the guys changed it slightly and hung it over the urinals.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

selzer said:


> In the men's room, the guys changed it slightly and hung it over the urinals.


Hahaha at least that was the truth. Well... I hope:blush:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup: and don't forget that everyone is a winner.


Also kids can be anything they want to be...forget realistic goals


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Courtney said:


> Also kids can be anything they want to be...forget realistic goals


I wanted to be a dinosaur and my son wants to be a train. 
Wait 60 years and I will certainly look like a dino! 
Realistic goals are SOOOO over-rated. :crazy:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

marinehoney said:


> I wanted to be a dinosaur and my son wants to be a train.
> Wait 60 years and I will certainly look like a dino!
> Realistic goals are SOOOO over-rated. :crazy:


LOL a train, that's cute!

The first thought that came to mind was this kid I went to high school with, all he talked about was being a doctor but his grades were poor and he would shrug off class sometimes. He was shocked when he graduated HS and found out being a doctor was not in his future...why didn't anyone tell him?


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Everyday there seems to be yet another story of a pitbull biting someone. 
It really is a shame. Is it bad breeding? The stories that have been in the news lately have featured pit bulls from what seem like stable homes, with dogs that have not been used for fighting.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why so many stories are in the news lately?


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Courtney said:


> LOL a train, that's cute!
> 
> The first thought that came to mind was this kid I went to high school with, all he talked about was being a doctor but his grades were poor and he would shrug off class sometimes. He was shocked when he graduated HS and found out being a doctor was not in his future...why didn't anyone tell him?


because it would have squashed any future ambitions that he would ever have  
I know my son will never *become* a train...but he sure as heck can be an engineer or conductor!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Stella's Mom said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts on why so many stories are in the news lately?


Because the news likes it that way? I've been bit by a German Shepherd mix, a black lab mix, and a yellow lab and none of those were in the news.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Because it seems that dogs are allowed to bite and owners give excuses.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

As a former pit bull owner and a lover of that breed, I'm gonna say: Oh well. We need stable dogs that do not bite people. I'm actually not surprised that this bite seems to have occurred when a person got between two dogs, because the nature of pit bulls is that they trend toward being aggressive with other animals but not with people. Nonetheless, we need dogs that do not bite people *under any circumstances that are likely to occur in society*. I think the dog should have been put down if it had not been killed when tasered. 

Most pit bulls are very solid, reliable animals with people. This is what they were bred for and what most pit bulls in my experience continue to demonstrate despite rampant backyard breeding and bad ownership, to their great credit. They are also extremely strong and agile, and without that mental soundness and reliability, their physical strength and animal aggression makes them too risky to have around, in my opinion.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Because the news likes it that way? I've been bit by a German Shepherd mix, a black lab mix, and a yellow lab and none of those were in the news.


This is also true. I was bitten twice by the Old English Sheepdog that was our family pet as a child, including once on the face, and there was no kind of hysteria about the dog's breed, nor of course did it make the news.

That said, the bite to my face only required four stitches and became a barely visible small scar in my adulthood. Had the dog been a pit bull, there likely would have been a lot more stitches. They are strong animals. 

It's a combination in my opinion of a breed that physically inflicts a lot of damage when it does bite, and media hysteria about pit bulls. Often dogs will be identified in the media as 'pit bulls' when they are clearly mixed or even another breed entirely.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> This is also true. I was bitten twice by the Old English Sheepdog that was our family pet as a child, including once on the face, and there was no kind of hysteria about the dog's breed, nor of course did it make the news.


I am surprised that OES and Chows don't induce media hysterics, as they are some of the bitingest (is that a word?) breeds there are.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I am surprised that OES and Chows don't induce media hysterics, as they are some of the bitingest (is that a word?) breeds there are.


I agree about the Chows.

I used to work at a kennel, and I was once attacked by a Chow named Peekaboo. 

That was one of the most shameful things to tell people. If you're attacked by a dog, you want it to be named like....Killer or Diablo or Pol Pot or something. Maybe Manson...No one wants to fess up to being attacked by Peekaboo.

I still can't stand Chows...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup: and don't forget that everyone is a winner.


And everybody gets a trophy.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Because the news likes it that way? I've been bit by a German Shepherd mix, a black lab mix, and a yellow lab and none of those were in the news.


Yes, the media does focus on that, but the 2 stories I was thinking of when I wrote the comment was the California stories with 2 separate incidents on the same day of a 2 year old child being mauled. In one instance the dog turned on the grandmother and owner of the pitbull. Child and grandmother were hiding under a piece of equipment to get away from the dog. Neighbor heard screaming and came out and shot and killed the dog.

This occurred about 2 weeks ago.

I am not making assumptions that other breeds don't bite. I got bit once by a ****Zhu. It hurt, but of course the damage is minimal with a small dog so the media coverage is not there.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Stella's Mom said:


> I am not making assumptions that other breeds don't bite. I got bit once by a ****Zhu. It hurt, but of course the damage is minimal with a small dog so the media coverage is not there.


I agree and those small dog bites don't get reported either by most people. 

Not sure if anyone remembers last year where the employee at Lowes had to have surgery on their face when a customers dog in their purse bit her when she reached over to pet it. It was pretty bad.

Larger dog bites in most cases cause the most injury and sometimes they are fatal...very scary.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Or Cocker Spaniels , Shih tzu's, and Chihuahua. If every bite by one of these breeds were reported, they would head the list.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> Or Cocker Spaniels , Shih tzu's, and Chihuahua. If every bite by one of these breeds were reported, they would head the list.


My bet would be Dachshunds. Those are bitey little devils!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Or Cocker Spaniels , Shih tzu's, and Chihuahua. If every bite by one of these breeds were reported, they would head the list.


I didn't know how to spell Shih Tzu...and I wrote Sh*T Zu so it came out funny...lol


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Courtney said:


> I agree and those small dog bites don't get reported either by most people.
> 
> Not sure if anyone remembers last year where the employee at Lowes had to have surgery on their face when a customers dog in their purse bit her when she reached over to pet it. It was pretty bad.
> 
> Larger dog bites in most cases cause the most injury and sometimes they are fatal...very scary.


Of course I did not report it. I was walking my old Rio Girl (GSD) on a leash and my neighbor was on her front yard with her dog off leash as I came walking across the street to go back in my house. Her dog just came out to the street and bit me for no reason whatsoever. He used to bark at me all the time if I was in my backyard at the same time as him.

Nasty little ankle biter. I am sure my neighbor appreciated that I did not report her dog. She did put up a beware of dog sign after that.

My sister in law has a Shih Tzu male that is not neutered. He gets insane. He will grab your leg and hump away. You try to take him off and he growls. My sister in law just says...Manny...stop it. Guess what, he doesn't. The last time I brought Stella over there. He did not come near me to hump me that time since he was too busy barking at her..

Needless to say, Shih Tzu's are probably my least fave breed of dog out there.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So the dog put somebody into the hospital and all they worry about is that the dog was tazered and died in the process? Classy.....NOT!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I didn't post it on this board but did another. Just this past Tuesday I took my boy for a walk on our quiet dead end road like I do everyday. It was night and two small dogs, one was a Jack Russell, the other one was smaller not sure what it was? But they got out of their fence, kids left the gate open and they headed straight for my boy, the JR was trying to bite his private area. I ended up with a small bite & some scratches on my legs. My boy was fine not even a scratch, this there was alot of air biting & yapping my the smaller ones. I didn't report it either. Actually the owner was very apologetic & kept asking if we were ok. She even left a note on my door the next day checking on us. But man, I have never been bit by a dog before!



Stella's Mom said:


> Of course I did not report it. I was walking my old Rio Girl (GSD) on a leash and my neighbor was on her front yard with her dog off leash as I came walking across the street to go back in my house. Her dog just came out to the street and bit us. He used to bark at me all the time if I was in my backyard at the same time as him.
> 
> Nasty little ankle biter. I am sure my neighbor appreciated that I did not report her dog. She did put up a beware of dog sign after that.
> 
> ...


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Courtney said:


> I didn't post it on this board but did another. Just this past Tuesday I took my boy for a walk on our quiet dead end road like I do everyday. It was night and two small dogs, one was a Jack Russell, the other one was smaller not sure what it was? But they got out of their fence, kids left the gate open and they headed straight for my boy, the JR was trying to bite his private area. I ended up with a small bite & some scratches on my legs. My boy was fine not even a scratch, this there was alot of air biting & yapping my the smaller ones. I didn't report it either. Actually the owner was very apologetic & kept asking if we were ok. She even left a note on my door the next day checking on us. But man, I have never been bit by a dog before!


Jack Russell's are a whole other story..lol. My brother had 3 at one time, and boy, after being around them for a few days I knew I would never consider owning one.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Stella's Mom said:


> Jack Russell's are a whole other story..lol. My brother had 3 at one time, and boy, after being around them for a few days I knew I would never consider owning one.


Yeah, not sure what prompted him to go after my boy like that? We were just walking my boy of course was leashed, the other dog was brave when the JR showed up and decided he would go after him too. We were not even in front of their house, it was several houses down and they came from behind. He was actually pretty calm and did not lunge or bark at them at all before they attacked. He was fine afterwards, I just carried on as usual. But he's never been attacked by another dog.

I postured myself tall in front of my boy and yelled and stomped to try to scare them off, but they just went behind me. I will admit I kicked the JR off of my dog. I was livid.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> As a former pit bull owner and a lover of that breed, I'm gonna say: Oh well. *We need stable dogs that do not bite people*. I'm actually not surprised that this bite seems to have occurred when a person got between two dogs, because the nature of pit bulls is that they trend toward being aggressive with other animals but not with people. *Nonetheless, we need dogs that do not bite people *under any circumstances that are likely to occur in society*.* I think the dog should have been put down if it had not been killed when tasered.


I hope you are speaking only of pit bulls, and not dogs in general. If you are including GSDs, then somebody please refresh my memory and tell me just why was it that I bought bred to the standard GSDs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Courtney said:


> I didn't post it on this board but did another. Just this past Tuesday I took my boy for a walk on our quiet dead end road like I do everyday. It was night and two small dogs, one was a Jack Russell, the other one was smaller not sure what it was? But they got out of their fence, kids left the gate open and they headed straight for my boy, *the JR was trying to bite his private area*. I ended up with a small bite & some scratches on my legs. My boy was fine not even a scratch, this there was alot of air biting & yapping my the smaller ones. I didn't report it either. Actually the owner was very apologetic & kept asking if we were ok. She even left a note on my door the next day checking on us. But man, I have never been bit by a dog before!


Huh? That's is way weird. If a dog is dog aggressive, it will go for the neck or front legs, or even the face if the dog just doesn't like dogs in its face, but I have yet to hear of a dog going for the penis or testicles. Sorry, most dogs will sniff there, that is normal dog behavior: "Hi, How are you, boy, how old, intact, huh? Didn't let them get your parts, are you healthy?" But I have never seen one choose that spot to launch an attack. 

Front legs, a dog will instinctively try to cripple a dog, and then once down the pack can finish a dog. But there really isn't much advantage going for the penis. Neck and throat, if they are fighting, yeah. Occasionally, a bite, nip in the rear when a dog is playing or running off, maybe to punctuate that the biter won the encounter.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

selzer said:


> One of my previous companies was big into the pshychological-make-you-all-better-workers things, and they had on the mirror in the ladies room, you are looking at a winner. In the men's room, the guys changed it slightly and hung it over the urinals.


 
:rofl:


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

selzer said:


> Ok, let me see, the dog bit someone seriously enough to require emergency surgery, and to be transported by ambulance.
> 
> The officers tried to use a catch pole on a dangerous animal and that did not work. The owner seemed like he was having trouble controlling the dog.
> 
> ...


For once you and I agree 100% on this sort of issue.

If my dog was out of control like that I would be thanking the officers for using the Taser instead of their Glock.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> Huh? That's is way weird. If a dog is dog aggressive, it will go for the neck or front legs, or even the face if the dog just doesn't like dogs in its face, but I have yet to hear of a dog going for the penis or testicles. Sorry, most dogs will sniff there, that is normal dog behavior: "Hi, How are you, boy, how old, intact, huh? Didn't let them get your parts, are you healthy?" But I have never seen one choose that spot to launch an attack.
> 
> Front legs, a dog will instinctively try to cripple a dog, and then once down the pack can finish a dog. But there really isn't much advantage going for the penis. Neck and throat, if they are fighting, yeah. Occasionally, a bite, nip in the rear when a dog is playing or running off, maybe to punctuate that the biter won the encounter.


It is common for bait puppies/dogs to be found with their penile areas shredded. I have also heard of this with dogs attacking in packs with various animal victims.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

selzer said:


> Huh? That's is way weird. If a dog is dog aggressive, it will go for the neck or front legs, or even the face if the dog just doesn't like dogs in its face, but I have yet to hear of a dog going for the penis or testicles. Sorry, most dogs will sniff there, that is normal dog behavior: "Hi, How are you, boy, how old, intact, huh? Didn't let them get your parts, are you healthy?" But I have never seen one choose that spot to launch an attack.
> 
> Front legs, a dog will instinctively try to cripple a dog, and then once down the pack can finish a dog. But there really isn't much advantage going for the penis. Neck and throat, if they are fighting, yeah. Occasionally, a bite, nip in the rear when a dog is playing or running off, maybe to punctuate that the biter won the encounter.


yeah, I don't know? The dogs could easily go under him and that JR literally went right to that area, that's when I kicked him. Ugh...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Draugr said:


> For once you and I agree 100% on this sort of issue.
> 
> If my dog was out of control like that I would be thanking the officers for using the Taser instead of their Glock.


     :crazy:


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't see what the problem is. This dog already had a date with the reaper when it chomped on that women's leg.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> So the dog put somebody into the hospital and all they worry about is that the dog was tazered and died in the process? Classy.....NOT!


Don't forget that the dog was already rehomed once because of a previous bite. Thus two bites for the dog in just over a year. Around here, if your dog bites it is considered a dangerous dog, but based on the severity of the bite will not have to be put down. But two bites, there is no hope for the dog to survive the second bite, that is an automatic death sentence. The officers tried the less lethal option, the only other option would have had the same end result.


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## SDChicken (May 6, 2012)

As a former pitbull owner I hate seeing stories like this. This breed already has enough bad publicity. But, I would never tolerate a people biter in a pitbull. I would of put the dog down. 

People forget, or don't know the history of the pitbull. A man biter wasn't tolerated. I hate what people are doing to this breed. An unstable mind spells disaster. Not only for that dog in particular, but for the breed as a whole. If people love them, as much as they claim, they would do the research and breed true to what an APBT or AST was meant to be.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

selzer said:


> :crazy:


I just meant the last time we disagreed on something it was on how law enforcement responded to an at large dog .


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Caitydid255 said:


> Don't forget that the dog was already rehomed once because of a previous bite.


It's a shame the owner didn't take the first bite seriously enough to do some heavy duty training instead of just shuffling the dog to another location.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Draugr said:


> I just meant the last time we disagreed on something it was on how law enforcement responded to an at large dog .


If it was the husky playing in the dog-park when he came in with his shep and over-reacted, then I still think that guy was out in left field. Two different situations completely, apples to oranges.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

selzer said:


> If it was the husky playing in the dog-park when he came in with his shep and over-reacted, then I still think that guy was out in left field. Two different situations completely, apples to oranges.


It was the situation in some west-coast neighborhood (CA, IIRC?) where a guard called a cop and the cop shot the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh, the dog had a habit of running around loose, could open the door on its own, and the owners wanted to sue everyone and everybody because they didn't bother to contain their dog? Well, I really do not have much sympathy for them, and still don't.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I sympathize with the owners. Don't get me wrong, I believe the officers did the right thing, but it still must feel awful regardless. This is why we need to EDUCATE people on proper dog training/raising. Things like this will happen less and less often if people realize the importance of socialization, proper breeding, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nobody educated me. It is common sense. If you have a dog, and you want your dog to stay alive, you need to have it under control. If your dog bites people, someone might take it out. It isn't rocket science. Nobody taught us this in school or at home, it is common sense. If people do not have a certain amount of common sense then maybe their dog will die.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> This is why we need to EDUCATE people on proper dog training/raising. Things like this will happen less and less often if people realize the importance of socialization, proper breeding, etc.


That's an admirable goal.
Reality dictates that most people who own dogs shouldn't own a houseplant. They cannot be bothered w/pesky things like spay/neuter/proper breeding/training. 
I've learned that in 10yrs. of cleaning up after other people's messes. There's just always going to _be_ messes. 
Accountability today is zilch on all counts, pets included.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> I don't see what the problem is. This dog already had a date with the reaper when it chomped on that women's leg.


Exactly. I hate it when people try to make sob stories to cover for their ignorance.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Yeah, not sure what prompted him to go after my boy like that? We were just walking my boy of course was leashed, the other dog was brave when the JR showed up and decided he would go after him too. We were not even in front of their house, it was several houses down and they came from behind. He was actually pretty calm and did not lunge or bark at them at all before they attacked. He was fine afterwards, I just carried on as usual. But he's never been attacked by another dog.
> 
> I postured myself tall in front of my boy and yelled and stomped to try to scare them off, but they just went behind me. I will admit I kicked the JR off of my dog. I was livid.


I would be livid too. My girl Stella is my baby. I don't take kindly to her getting hurt.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I wonder if these people are related to the owners...






Seems to me no one has any common sense nowadays. Let's hope they don't sue the laundry place for not having a sign about not putting your kid in a wash machine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But the answer is not to gather all the parents up into little laundramat seminars and explain that they should not put their children in washing machines. 

And the answer is not to teach all the dog owners that if their dog goes around biting people, the police might have to come and if they come they might have to subue the dog, and it may not be pretty, and the dog might even die. So sad. If this was a kid 15 -16 year old, who had a knife and was stabbing people, and the cops came, and the kid was brandishing the knife, they could shoot the kid, they could try pepper spray, they might tase the kid. The kid could die. Oh well. Do we need to set up classes for parents so that they do not put their kids in washing or drying machines, and if their kid decides to go around stabbing people, they might have to shoot the kid with a taser?

I guess I just have a problem with the answer to everything being to educate people. We spend an awful lot of money on education in this country, and it seems that people are just getting dumber.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> I guess I just have a problem with the answer to everything being to educate people. We spend an awful lot of money on education in this country, and it seems that people are just getting dumber.


Ca-ching. Common sense is far from common and many people don't want an "education." They want to do what they want to do and then cry when they meet up with the real and true ramifications of their foolishness. Even then responsibility is not accepted and it is someone else's fault.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We call ourselves advanced. 

But a couple of hundred years ago, a man could build his own house; make his own tools; train and doctor his animals, sow and reap his fields, make maple syrup and ice cream; make and fill an ice house to keep the meat cold or frozen even in the summer months; doctor wounds and deliver babies -- all with no electricity and maybe an eighth grade education. Without common sense, those folks would starve and probably die. Many did die, but many survived. Many today could not come close to managing to survive in that situation. We are not physically, nor probably mentally strong enough to hack it.


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