# Questions about PP dogs



## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi guys I have some questions about protections dogs.

Is it better to buy a protection dog as an adult, or buy a puppy and raise/train it yourself?
If you buy it as a puppy, do you pay someone to train it, or do have to pay someone to mentor/train you and then you train your dog? 

Im not really in the market for one at the moment. I have a 9 month old puppy at home. Id like to wait at least another year, maybe longer, before we get our second dog. Just kind of looking into the idea for now. 

Two days ago, a man followed a mother and daughter, broke into their house, less than a mile away from mine, in the middle of the day and tried to kidnap a young girl. It was Saturday, everyone was home. Thankfully the father was able to fend the creeper away. It really freaked me out though. I'm a stay at home mom and I have a daughter the same age as the young girl. We walk/bike ride to school twice a day, we walk our dog all over our neighborhood everyday, multiple times a day. I just want to feel safer. I've thought about purchasing a gun for a many years. The main reason I haven't done it yet is because the city I live in, doesn't hand out permits to carry concealed weapons. I'd basically have to leave it at home. Also it makes me nervous to have guns at home with kids.

I have a taser but honestly, my husband tested it on himself and his brother and it didn't seem to faze them all that much. 

I realize some of these PP dogs are very expensive. I don't really know if I would want a dog that did actual bite work or just kind of stand its ground and look tough. Then again maybe some barking wouldn't deter an intruder. I don't think our dog could go into this kind of training. We got her to be our family pet. Plus she's pretty small, only weighing in at 50 pounds at 9 months. She might end up weight less than 60 lbs as an adult. 

Anyway Im all over the place with the idea. Just wondering what you guys think. Thank you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think I'd rather have some sort of device that shrieks out a loud siren.And my trusty can of hornet spray for his eyes.Just because I couldn't stand it if the dog got hurt or killed.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Yea that would suck! Maybe, having two dogs is more likely to deter an intruder versus having just one. My Willow has a loud bark but she is just a puppy and she is tiny. Not sure if she would scare a 200 lb man if he got a good look at her.


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## K9KOA (Aug 21, 2016)

Home - WolfGang Expert Dog Training - Beverly Hills, Gardena, Torrance, Hawthorne, Los Angeles - Wolfgang Expert Dog Training This place finds the perfect dog for your family and trains them as protection dogs from pups.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Puppies are a crap shoot. No guarantee that the little 8 week old puppy is going to mature into a dog with the nerves capable of doing what you want. Plus you then are without protection for the 3 or so years it takes for the puppy to mature and undergo training. 

As far as size... those 50 - 60 lb malinois I've seen at IPO certainly seem to hit the sleeve pretty dang hard.

It may be worth it to you to atleast get your girl evaluated. Even if you dont start doing bite work with her teaching a good vicious bark on command. Is an awful good deterent.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

K9KOA said:


> Home - WolfGang Expert Dog Training - Beverly Hills, Gardena, Torrance, Hawthorne, Los Angeles - Wolfgang Expert Dog Training This place finds the perfect dog for your family and trains them as protection dogs from pups.


K9KOA - do you have any experience working with them?


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Puppies are a crap shoot. No guarantee that the little 8 week old puppy is going to mature into a dog with the nerves capable of doing what you want. Plus you then are without protection for the 3 or so years it takes for the puppy to mature and undergo training.
> 
> As far as size... those 50 - 60 lb malinois I've seen at IPO certainly seem to hit the sleeve pretty dang hard.
> 
> It may be worth it to you to atleast get your girl evaluated. Even if you dont start doing bite work with her teaching a good vicious bark on command. Is an awful good deterent.


So in your opinion buying an adult trained dog is a better option that buying the puppy with potential?

Yeah I think I'll look into getting my girl evaluated. If we could train her to at least stand her ground and look/sound scary, that would be great.

There is some kind of creep lurking my neighborhood... Looking for some peace of mind.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

My former 60lb rally-o & agility trained gsd looked plenty scary if aroused. Safe enough, great pet dog, a joy to train, and not a liability on a leash.

Statistically speaking, how likely is it that an intruder will be bothering you next? 

On the other hand, dog sports are fun. A gsd that will do a bark and hold, impressive.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> So in your opinion buying an adult trained dog is a better option that buying the puppy with potential?
> 
> Yeah I think I'll look into getting my girl evaluated. If we could train her to at least stand her ground and look/sound scary, that would be great.
> 
> There is some kind of creep lurking my neighborhood... Looking for some peace of mind.


Use extreme caution in getting your girl protection trained. There are a LOT of con artists in the dog business who will take your money and ruin your dog. Look for a trainer who also trains police K-9s if you're serious. A lot of departments don't have in house trainers, they contract with private companies. Be sure you get references and can verify what they tell you.

A trained young adult is a much better bet. Very few dogs have the right combination of nerves, drives and hardness for personal protection. They are produced via selective breeding.

Also, with a young adult, you will know about hips and elbows. Puppies are indeed a crapshoot in that sense. They can be evaluated young for temperament, but not hips and elbows.

Be prepared. These dogs do not come cheap.

I'd also consider adding an umbrella clause to my homeowners policy. Properly selected and trained protection dogs are not dangerous. Unless somebody does something really stupid. It happens. Plaintiff's lawyers get giddy when they find out your dog was protection trained.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but protection training is very serious business. It's important that you be a well informed consumer before you seek out a trainer or dog.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

K9KOA said:


> Home - WolfGang Expert Dog Training - Beverly Hills, Gardena, Torrance, Hawthorne, Los Angeles - Wolfgang Expert Dog Training This place finds the perfect dog for your family and trains them as protection dogs from pups.


I found it odd that all the pics were of show line GSDs.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

islanddog said:


> My former 60lb rally-o & agility trained gsd looked plenty scary if aroused. Safe enough, great pet dog, a joy to train, and not a liability on a leash.
> 
> Statistically speaking, how likely is it that an intruder will be bothering you next?
> 
> On the other hand, dog sports are fun. A gsd that will do a bark and hold, impressive.


Statistically speaking, I don't know. I do know he is around my neighborhood and I do know that we hang out in our neighborhood every single day, multiple times a day. About 4 months ago the school sent us an email saying that a guy tried to pick up a couple young girls walking to school. The girls got away thankfully but I just know he is around. 4 months later he was touching himself in public, followed a mom and daughter all the way home and broke inside, on Saturday. All this happened within one mile of my house, on our route to the dog park and the kids park and my daughters school. Its just really scary.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

islanddog said:


> My former 60lb rally-o & agility trained gsd looked plenty scary if aroused. Safe enough, great pet dog, a joy to train, and not a liability on a leash.
> 
> Statistically speaking, how likely is it that an intruder will be bothering you next?
> 
> On the other hand, dog sports are fun. A gsd that will do a bark and hold, impressive.


You're right about dog sports. In addition to IPO, I was thinking of SDA for more real life type protection scenarios.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

zetti said:


> Use extreme caution in getting your girl protection trained. There are a LOT of con artists in the dog business who will take your money and ruin your dog. Look for a trainer who also trains police K-9s if you're serious. A lot of departments don't have in house trainers, they contract with private companies. Be sure you get references and can verify what they tell you.
> 
> A trained young adult is a much better bet. Very few dogs have the right combination of nerves, drives and hardness for personal protection. They are produced via selective breeding.
> 
> ...


No, your not raining on my parade. We're not buying dog any time soon. At this point, Im just trying to see what the options are and trying to think of it from every angle. Your post was very helpful actually. I do realize this is serious business. I don't want to take short cuts & yeah I've seen that they are very expensive! Im just more comfortable with dogs in the house than I am guns. You can recall a dog. You cant recall a bullet.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Honestly, for run of the mill, I heard a scary thing on the news last night, I want to feel safer, this (minus the bandanna) will do;










That's my 60 lb (waiting at the rainbow bridge girl).

Will 2nd zetti, if you really need to have a weapon on a leash, make sure you get a reliable one, great nerves, awesome training, and then you need to be on the ball for 'regular maintainance' in terms of training, exercise, practice, not sure if that's really worth it in response to a news item etc.... 

I have a bike gang member (confirmed) living down the street, some years ago, a dude was shot & left in the woods down the street, 'stuff' happens.

I now have this on leash...and am not feeling any more or less secure (and am less likely to do something stupid like confront illegal atv drivers on conservation lands, yep, did that with the gsd's giving me a false sense of security)


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

I can't make any recommendations on PPD-oriented trainers/breeders in your neck of the woods, but as others have said, you really need to do your homework to separate the pretenders from those who are truly experienced and good at what they do. If I were you, I would reach out to some local IPO club members, or a similar dog sport club, and talk to them to get a better feel for the breeders and trainers in that area. I can't stress enough how you need to be careful going down the PPD road; some so called "trainers" are putting out poorly trained and poorly socialized dogs. Not only could they fold under pressure, but they could also preemptively lash out at people who aren't true threats.

Also, not to get too personal with this, but what exactly is your crime situation where you live? Is this one incident with the creepy guy the only thing that is motivating you to look into getting a true PPD? If this was an isolated incident, I think getting a highly trained, highly expensive PPD might be an overkill (though this is totally subjective). A more manageable dog solution might be to get a loyal and smart breed; something like a properly socialized doberman or rotweiller, or even a pet-line GSD, could easily intimidate most would-be intruders while still serving you well as a friendly, easy-to-handle family pet. Just the presence of a dog, period, is enough to intimidate a lot of robbers and home invaders, simply due to the ruckus they will cause.

If crime truly is an issue where you live, a PPD can work. You'll need to spend a lot of time researching and finding the right breeder; and it will cost you a lot of $. Mace is another option. I'd recommend looking into getting a concealed carry permit too, though it sounds like your area is very restrictive on that (which is unfortunate).

Ultimately, you need to do a real thorough self-analysis of what level of responsibility you're willing to take on and what level of protection you think is warranted.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Find an ipo club and see about getting your girl evaluated. If for nothing else it'll give you more information about the dog you have as well as help guide you on your search for the next one.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

I will make sure to do enough research on the trainer. I will take my girl to an IPO club and see where that leads. The trainer we have now used to train military dogs for years so Im sure he can also point us in the right direction. 

Um our neighborhood is generally nice. Suburbs, lots of dog parks, kid parks etc.. I wouldn't call it dangerous. We don't have gangs, just some kind of psych pedophile. We do have tons of bike paths that crisscross and have no road access, which is how I think he keeps getting away. We do spend a lot of time in our neighborhood everyday. walking to school 2x/day & walking the dog 2x/day, dog park and whatever other shenanigans we get into. 

Anyway no this incident isn't the only reason why Im looking into a PPD. Ive been thinking about a gun for years for peace of mind but not sure if a gun would really give me that. Then I might just be worried about the kids getting a hold of it. Im a stay at home mom and spend a lot of time alone with my toddler. My dog is great but she isn't protection trained. 

In my opinion mace it not that effective. You have to have it in your hands, it wont always stop someone, you have to be somewhat close to them. Its just like the taser that I already have. An a CCW is impossible here. 

Thanks everyone. You guys have given me a lot to think about.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think a couple people here including myself have been involved in incidents where their (at least in my case) non-PPD trained dogs protected them.

I will say, you are better off shooting a guy dead than having a dog do so much as nick them with a claw. That is, of course, only if you have justified cause to be in fear for your life.

Because basically homeowners hear "dog bite" and roll over and settle. It's a pretty messed up system, I've done my research quite a bit on this issue. 

I never see actual "PPDs", anywhere. 

I don't know. I think a well trained GSD that will bark on command, that's all you need generally. 

I honestly run away first, and would only have the dogs to do their thing if I was left with absolutely no other option. Even if your state has it, "stand your ground" doesn't seem to apply to dogs. For instance, if someone jumps your fence and gets bitten in Connecticut, dog is always liable. 

In any encounter, I would do my best to have presence of mind to video tape or record (call a friend or even 911 to record the whole thing or just go to a voice mail) so they could hear me at least warn the guy off multiple times and what was going on. It's a messed up world, but with America's litigation, do your research on PPDs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

If you're concerned about your personal safety when you're out and about, don't under estimate the value of good, rock solid obedience training.

It's human nature. People see a German Shepherd walking beautifully at your side, sitting automatically when you stop walking, you two in perfect harmony. Anyone with ill intentions is likely to wonder: what ELSE is that dog trained to do? Is that some sort of security dog? A K-9?

Compare that to what goes through your mind when you see a GSD bouncing around at the end of the leash, paying no attention to the handler, darting around, sniffing everything. Not exactly a threatening picture to a Bad Guy, is it?

I've experienced the Parting of the Red Sea effect at enough ATMs after dark to have seen this work. And with some of my friendliest dogs.

If you get into a really tight spot, bluff. Grab your dogs collar and tell her something like "Not yet, Rocco , not yet, easy." That sort of thing.

My own personal bias is toward IPO obedience. I like the way it's taught, with the emphasis on a visibly harmonious relationship between dog and handler. Assuming you find a good club.

Criminals look for easy prey. Arming yourself with a well trained GSD makes you much less attractive to a predator . Ideally, you will look like more trouble than you're worth and he'll move on.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Muskeg brings up some good points about liability issues. But I also think the context matters. If a burglar or aggressor gets bit while trying to invade your home or attack you, I think they'd have a very tough time bringing successful litigation against you in either civil or criminal court. It's like the old wives tale about a burglar falling through a glass skylight onto a homeowner's kitchen table and getting cut by a knife and then suing the homeowner...makes for a great story but the reality of such scenarios is much different.

All that said, you do want to find the right trainer, which it sounds like you plan on doing. If your dog does bite someone where a bite wasn't warranted, then you will have potential legal problems on your hands.

I won't press the concealed carry permitting anymore other than to say there are ways, through training and locks, to keep firearms out of unintended hands, like those of your kids. But that's a comfort issue, and you need to be willing to handle that high level of responsibility on a daily basis in order to go that route. Tazers and mace are very much good alternatives, albeit not nearly as lethal, obviously, as a firearm. With tazers especially, they can stop a man in his tracks if used properly...you can go watch some youtube clips for proof of that. 

My final note of caution on the PPD option is this: at the end of the day, a PPD is a living, breathing animal. A well-trained one can serve you well and still provide great companionship for the family, but they can misjudge situations, be tricked and even be killed (if the opponent it's facing is determined enough). If you're situation is bad to where you're worrying about your family's safety, have alternative ways to defend yourself or mitigate risk. Don't put all your eggs in the PPD basket. Not that I think there are a whole bunch of dog-killing psycho's lurking in the shadows waiting for the right opportunity to strike, but if you're worried about threats that can't be dealt with using a tazer or mace, I'm not sure a PPD will solve all your problems either...that or you have an unrealistic perception of the threats in your neighborhood.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Chances are lower with a puppy of getting what you need. If you are serious and can afford it you buy a trained adult that has the correct temperment, genetics and health for the job. A decent dog with proper training can easily run you 20k.

No your local IPO club probably cannot help you nor will they likely want to help you other then selling you a washout. I play in IPO and I will say many clubs dont have a clue what make a good PP dog or what training is required to make one.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Puppies are a crap shoot. No guarantee that the little 8 week old puppy is going to mature into a dog with the nerves capable of doing what you want. Plus you then are without protection for the 3 or so years it takes for the puppy to mature and undergo training.
> 
> As far as size... those 50 - 60 lb malinois I've seen at IPO certainly seem to hit the sleeve pretty dang hard.
> 
> It may be worth it to you to atleast get your girl evaluated. Even if you dont start doing bite work with her teaching a good vicious bark on command. Is an awful good deterent.


Pretty much this, your best bet is to put all your chips into finding the right lineage because I have come to learn over the years that genetics are pretty much 90% of it when it comes to real stone cold protection dogs (the other 10% is training). They did tests with big 100lb german shepherds who ran away when someone attacked their owner (scenario tests), and they let intruders walk freely inside the house, because most dogs simply do not have the right genetics to actually fight a man. Im going to copy paste a question and answer portion from a professional PP trainer:........

QUESTION: I called some trainers this weekend and they said the dog doesn't need to have any genetics and they could teach the dog Personal Protection. Is this true?​ ANSWER:
In good old American english, this is 100% bull ****. These people that you are talking to are either inexperienced trainers or rip off artists that are only interested in getting your money.
Genetics is the most important aspect of personal protection training. This is followed by a sound foundation in prey bite development and then a solid foundation in defense to build the dogs fight drive.
A dog’s ability to work in prey is 100% genetic. If a dog does not have prey drive it can not be properly trained in protection work. Prey drive is needed to release the stress of defensive bite training. If a dog does not have prey and a foundation in prey bite work it has no way of relieving the stress that's brought to the dog in defense. Dogs that lack prey but are still trained in defense become neurotic, sick crazy dogs. These are dogs that are dangerous to be around.
For a dog to work as a personal protection dog it must have fight drive. (If you don’t know what fight drive is, refer to my article on the subject). Fight drive, like prey drive, is 100% inherited. It can not be trained into a dog.
All dogs can be worked in defense. Dogs that lack a foundation in prey and a genetic foundation in fight drive will resort to avoidance as a means of defense. If they are not allowed to run but are backed into a corner and forced to fight - most will fight, but later in real life when presented with a stressful situation they will always resort back to avoidance. This is how these guys that call themselves professional dog trainers will train a dog that's not genetically capable of doing the work. They tie them up in the same spot and beat them until the dog fights in fight or flight. But once that same dog is in a different spot and it’s not tied up, it will run.
With all this said, I will say that most dogs can be trained to bite. If they do not have the genetics needed for the work they can be trained through "avoidance" to bite people. This is a barbaric method of training a dog. The dogs are tied out and basically beat on until they learn that the only safe thing to do is bite a person. Trainers put these animal in the fight or flight mode by adding so much stress that the dog is literally fighting for his life (because they eliminate the possibility of running away through being tied out.) This kind of training usually makes a dog neurotic and a very unstable dangerous animal to be around. Dogs trained like this will often bite their owner and family as well as guests.
My advice is to call these so called trainers back and tell them that you sent an e-mail to a guy who seriously questions their statements, methods and integrity.​


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## K9KOA (Aug 21, 2016)

Agaribay805 said:


> K9KOA - do you have any experience working with them?


I have been going to some classes to watch almost every weekend. I will be taking my pup to him in a couple months for training. He has alot of videos on youtube also showing his training techniques as well as customer blogs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Pretty much this, your best bet is to put all your chips into finding the right lineage because I have come to learn over the years that genetics are pretty much 90% of it when it comes to real stone cold protection dogs (the other 10% is training). They did tests with big 100lb german shepherds who ran away when someone attacked their owner (scenario tests), and they let intruders walk freely inside the house, because most dogs simply do not have the right genetics to actually fight a man. Im going to copy paste a question and answer portion from a professional PP trainer:........
> 
> QUESTION: I called some trainers this weekend and they said the dog doesn't need to have any genetics and they could teach the dog Personal Protection. Is this true?​ ANSWER:
> In good old American english, this is 100% bull ****. These people that you are talking to are either inexperienced trainers or rip off artists that are only interested in getting your money.
> ...


Amen.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If you need protection, the first step is paying attention. Learn to be observant of your surroundings and avoid dangerous situations. 

Next, you have to arm yourself. A PPD is a much higher liability risk than a firearm in the hands of a well trained person. Yes, you can't recall a bullet, but with training, you won't make the mistake of accidentally shooting someone unless they need it. Guns are a daily part of my life, and have been as long as I can remember. I got my first 22 when I was 5. My kids and grandkids were all taught firearm safety from a very early age. If you are in a situation where you feel you may need to protect yourself against a determined attacker, a firearm is definitely the safest and cheapest means of protection IMO.

If you feel a PPD is worth the liability, money and sustainment training, you should get a trained dog, or at the very least, a tested green dog you can then attend a club with or work with a LE trainer in your area. I would stay away from the PPD only flashy website guys. They will sell you a dog for $80,000 that will supposedly stop any man and also wash your windows. It's all hype. If you want a PPD, get one from a LE and MIL trainer / broker / vendor. 

I would visit Bay Area K9 Association and see what their training is like.

If I needed a PPD tomorrow, I would go to Vohne Liche Kennels, or Loganhaus Kennels and have them help me select a dog. They are both reputable MIL and LE vendors, and can help you find the dog that meets your needs.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> If you need protection, the first step is paying attention. Learn to be observant of your surroundings and avoid dangerous situations.
> 
> Next, you have to arm yourself. A PPD is a much higher liability risk than a firearm in the hands of a well trained person. Yes, you can't recall a bullet, but with training, you won't make the mistake of accidentally shooting someone unless they need it. Guns are a daily part of my life, and have been as long as I can remember. I got my first 22 when I was 5. My kids and grandkids were all taught firearm safety from a very early age. If you are in a situation where you feel you may need to protect yourself against a determined attacker, a firearm is definitely the safest and cheapest means of protection IMO.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately in places like NYC, Chicago, Detroit, you can't carry firearms. Seems like only the criminal can and good law abiding citizens aren't allowed to do so. When I lived in NYC I would see some of the most **** up stuff imaginable, and all I can do to feel safe was walk around with a big ol' GSD. He was not trained in PP, but he was big and mean looking and that was all I needed to keep bad guys away from me.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I just wanted to amplify something David said. When you put the PPD training on a dog, you are committing yourself to continuous training. Like every week so that you are well practiced and in control. It must be part of your lifestyle. You just don't train them up to PPD and then think you are good to go forever. That is when the risk of a bad situation and liability increase.

My two are not PPD trained at all, one is a SAR dog, both protect the house and no one is coming in uninvited. I have complete confidence in that.


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## Aristo (Jul 23, 2016)

I have been contemplating getting a ppd as well when I move to a country where the police are less reliable. But this whole thread is making me question the need for a trained ppd. So what I am hearing is it is not so much the training or the breed so much as the actual temprament of the dog that really will decide if he will protect you from getting attacked. Having a big intimidating looking dog also helps.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's a combination of genetics and training. You need BOTH.


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## Aristo (Jul 23, 2016)

So you are telling me that a dog with the proper temperament and socialication will not protect it's owner and the household from an intruder just on instinct alone?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I am telling you that without training you won't know if the dog will engage an attacker, you won't have control over the dog if it does engage someone and you won't really know what to do yourself in that type of situation. Training builds confidence in the dog as well. It also allows the dog to be clear headed in a fight because it's just another fight, something they do all the time.

Military and LE dogs are required to train at least every week. This isn't because departments just want to spend money on K9 programs.

MMA fighters train every day to do something they are genetically predisposed to be great at.

If you buy a dog, never train it, never practice, never learn what you need to do, and never evaluate the actual temperament of the dog under pressure, you are just fooling yourself if you believe that dog will reliably engage an attacker.


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## Aristo (Jul 23, 2016)

Ok now I get it so first you find a dog old enough to determine proper health, temperament and then how much training would you need for the dog to be predictible in a dangerous situation? Not a total guard dog just predictible..


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It depends. That's like asking how long it takes to build a house.

And what does predictable mean to you? I can find you a dog that will predictably be run off by any attacker without much trouble at all. If you want a dog that will predictably not engage a target without command, will fight until outed, and will out on command, that takes some work.

What is the background of the dog? KNPV PH1? Did it come from a MIL / LE vendor who trains initial bitework and OB? What are it's current strengths and weaknesses? 

Who is training and handling the dog? How often do you train? 


The only solid answer to getting a real PPD is to buy a real PPD. Everything else depends on too many variables to answer any questions with any real hope of accuracy. There is a reason some vendors have hundreds of dogs in the system. Even with solid testing and medical screening, dogs still wash out for any number of reasons.

If I was going to get a pup or green dog with hopes of training it in protection (real protection, not sport) I would be sure to get a dog from a reputable breeder that produces working dogs and I would talk to them about my aspirations for the dog. I would also decide before I got the dog where we were going to train and talk to them about PPD prospects.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> It depends. That's like asking how long it takes to build a house.
> 
> And what does predictable mean to you? I can find you a dog that will predictably be run off by any attacker without much trouble at all. If you want a dog that will predictably not engage a target without command, will fight until outed, and will out on command, that takes some work.
> 
> ...


I've heard you should never be the one holding the prey item because the pup has to learn that there is "something else" he has to look for to kill.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Training using prey drive is not about the dog killing anything IMO. 

Bitework on a good dog is more about control than teaching it to bite something. It is obedience while extremely excited or angry or both.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you are afraid is the worst time to buy a dog for protection .

this has to be a clearly thought out decision with full appreciation on what your role is in the team.
+ + + + everything that David Winners has already pointed out !

I would do something that makes YOU exude confidence . Take up some martial arts . Just the change
in posture and physical confidence will start taking you off some predatory creeps victim list .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Play drive, which looks like prey, is not about killing anything; prey drive depending on nerve and fight components in the dog can be asset in PPD.
Frankly, a good GS with strong genetic traits should have discernment to protect home, property( like your car) and your persons. This PPD having to be a fighter against unreal odds, like a gun, or a battalion of people is really unrealistic expectations of PPD efficiency. But it is realistic for a good GS to defend home or be deterrence, to protect owner and property with and many cases without training. I know of countless folks over the years that had GS that were superb guardians and were never trained....GENETICS......Yes, you can define boundaries and limits better by training, but frankly without genetics you can't do the training anyway.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff I agree . Finding a good , balanced dog is not as easy any more.

Then there is the problem of the buyer actually knowing what a good dog (for the job) is.

On this forum you have so many examples of people buying the pup that charges out , barking,
hackling , thinking that "this" is your protection candidate . NOT.

Then there is the big problem of those people raising the dog properly - which opens up 
another huge thread on the "early socialization" sticky ---- got to do something about
a tired pup is a good pup -- because that does not get you where you want to go.

A tired pup is a tired pup , often running in a deficit position.

So the dog, the raising , the training, the right attitude from the owner and continual good management, and that
does not even include the ability to wash out a candidate that is not suitable .

big order


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> I just wanted to amplify something David said. When you put the PPD training on a dog, you are committing yourself to continuous training. Like every week so that you are well practiced and in control. It must be part of your lifestyle. You just don't train them up to PPD and then think you are good to go forever. That is when the risk of a bad situation and liability increase.
> 
> My two are not PPD trained at all, one is a SAR dog, both protect the house and no one is coming in uninvited. I have complete confidence in that.


I have been going to some meets like you suggested, I feel like Dutch Shepherds are in a complete different ballpark than any GSD I ever met. (At least the ones I've come in contact with)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Julian G said:


> DutchKarin said:
> 
> 
> > I just wanted to amplify something David said. When you put the PPD training on a dog, you are committing yourself to continuous training. Like every week so that you are well practiced and in control. It must be part of your lifestyle. You just don't train them up to PPD and then think you are good to go forever. That is when the risk of a bad situation and liability increase.
> ...


Add the screw loose mentality of nearly all Dutch Shepherds to the mix and it compounds the difficulty of everything Carmen mentioned above. They can be very reactive dogs, and you have to move faster in your head than they do. 

A good GSD is good at everything. They are a utility breed, suitable for everything from service dog work to protection. It's also easier to find a good dutchie as a far higher percentage are being bred for work. If you get a good GSD, it will be more than enough dog for personal protection and it will probably be easier to live with than DS or Mal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this can not be said loud enough or often enough --- I wish everyone would remember and respect this -- 

"A good GSD is good at everything. They are a utility breed, suitable for everything from service dog work to protection.


the breed would be in a better state for it.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

David Winners said:


> If you need protection, the first step is paying attention. Learn to be observant of your surroundings and avoid dangerous situations.
> 
> Next, you have to arm yourself. A PPD is a much higher liability risk than a firearm in the hands of a well trained person. Yes, you can't recall a bullet, but with training, you won't make the mistake of accidentally shooting someone unless they need it. Guns are a daily part of my life, and have been as long as I can remember. I got my first 22 when I was 5. My kids and grandkids were all taught firearm safety from a very early age. If you are in a situation where you feel you may need to protect yourself against a determined attacker, a firearm is definitely the safest and cheapest means of protection IMO.
> 
> ...


Agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Out of curiosity, do kennels which cater to LE and Mil, like Von Liche, cater to civilians as well? I've come across quite a few kennels online which seemed focused on providing police dogs, but I can't tell if they're willing to sell dogs to civilians for sport or protection purposes.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> this can not be said loud enough or often enough --- I wish everyone would remember and respect this --
> 
> "A good GSD is good at everything. They are a utility breed, suitable for everything from service dog work to protection.
> 
> ...


It would be wonderful if more breeders bred GSD's that would be suitable for some kind of work. 

Unfortunately, the vast majority of GSD's produced in the US are not suitable for service work and especially not for protection work, IMHO. I respect the breeders that preserve the working ability, utility, sound health and temperament in the breed. The versatility of the GSD is maintained by a small percentage of the breeders and GSD enthusiasts need to support those breeders.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> It would be wonderful if more breeders bred GSD's that would be suitable for some kind of work.
> 
> *Unfortunately, the vast majority of GSD's produced in the US are not suitable for service work and especially not for protection work, IMHO*. I respect the breeders that preserve the working ability, utility, sound health and temperament in the breed. The versatility of the GSD is maintained by a small percentage of the breeders and GSD enthusiasts need to support those breeders.


On this, I agree with you (believe it or not). I think the policies of certain US-based breed organizations, which I'll leave unnamed, as well the heavy focus by many breeders and owners on show-conformation, have watered down the GSD in America.

But, on the same token, there is also a K9 industry that has grown in the US, especially in the wake of 9/11. They bring in hundreds, if not thousands, of European working dogs on annual basis to cater to LE, Military, and even civilian buyers. You'd think by now that those working-line breeders/importers would be able to exchange dogs with one another and start up a US-based breeding program, instead of constantly importing from Europe. I've heard of breeding programs at certain agencies, like the RCMP and the Air Force's MWD program at Lackland. But it seems a lot of them still rely on imports.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dalko43 said:


> Agree with a lot of what you're saying.
> 
> Out of curiosity, do kennels which cater to LE and Mil, like Von Liche, cater to civilians as well? I've come across quite a few kennels online which seemed focused on providing police dogs, but I can't tell if they're willing to sell dogs to civilians for sport or protection purposes.


Von Licht will sell you or any civilian a dog for sure. Mike Suttle will probably be a little more reserved and careful. He is not going to place a dog with a person that couldn't handle it. Just because you can go to a big vendor that caters to LE or the Military doesn't guarantee that you will get a dog that will cut it as a PP, LE or MWD. IMHO, many dogs are offered for sale as LE or MWD's, but some of these dogs are simply not suitable. 

If someone is interested in going to a vendor to buy one of these dogs for PP or sport work, my advice would be to bring someone with you that can really test and read dogs. It would be worth it to pay an professional, experienced trainer or handler to evaluate the dogs for you. Dog vendors or brokers are like used car salesman or horse traders. Not meaning to insult any used car salesman, but the analogy can be pretty accurate with some. You need to be very, very careful. I have dealt with a lot of dog vendors / brokers over they years and the really honest ones are gems. I have several that I trust and will purchase dogs for my PD and even test and evaluate dogs for other PD's. There are some that I wouldn't deal with. I had one large vendor with his business literally 10 minutes from our training facility. I drove 8 hours to a different vendor because the one in my city was/is a real shyster. After they burnt all their bridges here and all the PD's stopped dealing with them they moved to Tennessee. 

While many LE vendors will gladly sell a civilian a dog, you really need to know what you are looking for, what you want and what you can handle. Then you really need to be very careful, thorough and expertly test and evaluate any potential dogs. Most importantly, never let the vendor test the dog for you or "demo" what the dog can do. Do it yourself if you have the experience or bring some one with you that has the knowledge and ability to really evaluate the dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dalko43 said:


> *On this, I agree with you (believe it or not). I think the policies of certain US-based breed organizations, which I'll leave unnamed, as well the heavy focus by many breeders and owners on show-conformation, have watered down the GSD in America.*
> 
> But, on the same token, there is also a K9 industry that has grown in the US, especially in the wake of 9/11. They bring in hundreds, if not thousands, of European working dogs on annual basis to cater to LE, Military, and even civilian buyers. You'd think by now that those working-line breeders/importers would be able to exchange dogs with one another and start up a US-based breeding program, instead of constantly importing from Europe. I've heard of breeding programs at certain agencies, like the RCMP and the Air Force's MWD program at Lackland. But it seems a lot of them still rely on imports.


The fault lies with the BYB's that do not health test, work or train their own dogs. It really is not the Show or Conformation folks that are the problem, at least they have standards and are breeding to achieve them. The fault, the blame and the problems within the breed lie with the folks that do not train, do not show, do not OFA or health test their dogs. They simply let their dogs mount in their backyard because "King is so big, friendly and weighs a 100lbs." Because they think that there is something bread worthy about "King" and "fluffy" because they will have such cute puppies. 

There are thousands of folks across the US doing exactly this in the US. These BYB's are not regulated and never will be, to the detriment of the breed. Dogs that make nice pets should not be bred, unless they have some truly outstanding breed worthiness such as working ability or Conformation. But, those breeders that do not or have never worked or showed their dogs, so one will never know.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> The fault lies with the BYB's that do not health test, work or train their own dogs. It really is not the Show or Conformation folks that are the problem, at least they have standards and are breeding to achieve them. The fault, the blame and the problems within the breed lie with the folks that do not train, do not show, do not OFA or health test their dogs. They simply let their dogs mount in their backyard because "King is so big, friendly and weighs a 100lbs." Because they think that there is something bread worthy about "King" and "fluffy" because they will have such cute puppies.
> 
> There are thousands of folks across the US doing exactly this in the US. These BYB's are not regulated and never will be, to the detriment of the breed. Dogs that make nice pets should not be bred, unless they have some truly outstanding breed worthiness such as working ability or Conformation. But, those breeders that do not or have never worked or showed their dogs, so one will never know.


BYB's are certainly a problem with GSD's, as they are for pretty much any breed. But there is no question that some of the fault lies with some of the show-oriented breed organizations in this country. The AKC, in particular, historically emphasized the form of the GSD over any sort of functional purpose and healthy stature...the "roach back" craze in the show-ring should be proof enough of that. And quite honestly, it's not uncommon for some of the BYB's, that you and I both dislike, to still have AKC papers to instill some sense of legitimacy in what they're doing.

I've never seen the AKC as encouraging the breeding of working GSD's. They never really embraced the Schutzhund traditions the same way the USCA did, which is why the two groups never joined together. And while they have some functional titles, like tracking, a lot of the GSD's that receive high praise in their show-ring, lack the temperamental and physical qualities needed to do real work, whether it be SAR, police-work, protection or herding. That's why people looking for a working GSD, go to breeders experienced in IPO, protection-work, K9 training, herding, ect. and not to a breeder who solely focuses on AKC titles. IMHO, the AKC and the breeders who subscribe to their policies and views on breeding, are just as culpable as the average-joe BYB trying to make a buck. The GSD was never meant to be a fluffy, over-sized house pet (like you said); but breeding priorities adopted by a majority of American breeders (many of them being AKC members) have pushed it in that direction over the years.

This stands in very direct contrast to breeding programs and organizations that exist in much of Europe, which on the whole, have maintained a much stronger emphasis on breeding functional dogs rather than pretty ones (at least as it pertains to the GSD and other working herder breeds).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> A good GSD is good at everything. They are a utility breed, suitable for everything from service dog work to protection



The problem is very few actually breed for balance. It seems most have their venue and that's what they breed for. Then we get the favored drives and characteristics for that particular venue shifting the scales.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dalko43 said:


> BYB's are certainly a problem with GSD's, as they are for pretty much any breed. But there is no question that some of the fault lies with some of the show-oriented breed organizations in this country. The AKC, in particular, historically emphasized the form of the GSD over any sort of functional purpose and healthy stature...the "roach back" craze in the show-ring should be proof enough of that. And quite honestly, it's not uncommon for some of the BYB's, that you and I both dislike, to still have AKC papers to instill some sense of legitimacy in what they're doing.
> 
> I've never seen the AKC as encouraging the breeding of working GSD's. They never really embraced the Schutzhund traditions the same way the USCA did, which is why the two groups never joined together. And while they have some functional titles, like tracking, a lot of the GSD's that receive high praise in their show-ring, lack the temperamental and physical qualities needed to do real work, whether it be SAR, police-work, protection or herding. That's why people looking for a working GSD, go to breeders experienced in IPO, protection-work, K9 training, herding, ect. and not to a breeder who solely focuses on AKC titles. IMHO, the AKC and the breeders who subscribe to their policies and views on breeding, are just as culpable as the average-joe BYB trying to make a buck. The GSD was never meant to be a fluffy, over-sized house pet (like you said); but breeding priorities adopted by a majority of American breeders (many of them being AKC members) have pushed it in that direction over the years.
> 
> This stands in very direct contrast to breeding programs and organizations that exist in much of Europe, which on the whole, have maintained a much stronger emphasis on breeding functional dogs rather than pretty ones (at least as it pertains to the GSD and other working herder breeds).


more than like -- Love !


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> BYB's are certainly a problem with GSD's, as they are for pretty much any breed. But there is no question that some of the fault lies with some of the show-oriented breed organizations in this country. The AKC, in particular, historically emphasized the form of the GSD over any sort of functional purpose and healthy stature...the "roach back" craze in the show-ring should be proof enough of that. And quite honestly, it's not uncommon for some of the BYB's, that you and I both dislike, to still have AKC papers to instill some sense of legitimacy in what they're doing.
> 
> I've never seen the AKC as encouraging the breeding of working GSD's. They never really embraced the Schutzhund traditions the same way the USCA did, which is why the two groups never joined together. And while they have some functional titles, like tracking, a lot of the GSD's that receive high praise in their show-ring, lack the temperamental and physical qualities needed to do real work, whether it be SAR, police-work, protection or herding. That's why people looking for a working GSD, go to breeders experienced in IPO, protection-work, K9 training, herding, ect. and not to a breeder who solely focuses on AKC titles. IMHO, the AKC and the breeders who subscribe to their policies and views on breeding, are just as culpable as the average-joe BYB trying to make a buck. The GSD was never meant to be a fluffy, over-sized house pet (like you said); but breeding priorities adopted by a majority of American breeders (many of them being AKC members) have pushed it in that direction over the years.
> 
> This stands in very direct contrast to breeding programs and organizations that exist in much of Europe, which on the whole, have maintained a much stronger emphasis on breeding functional dogs rather than pretty ones (at least as it pertains to the GSD and other working herder breeds).


Can I get another amen?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Here is some information that I shared in an email 

excerpt from K9 Working Breeds – characteristics and capabilities authored by Resi Gerritsen and Ruud Haak

the book k9 working breeds characteristics and capabilities 
the authors -- husband and wife team - initiated the Dutch Rescue Dog Organization - attending SAR operations after earthquakes, explosion, lost persons in wood and wilderness . In 1990 they were asked by the Austrian Red Cross to select dogs for rescue and avalanche , which experience led them to earthquake rescue in Armenia , Japan, Turkey, Algeria , working together and with the Austrian army tops. 

I think they have a real good handle on the requirements of a working dog.

About the Judge : 2015 U.S. IRO Testing Event

“of course there are still GSD with a very good working ability, but their quantity is greatly decreasing. In Germany , the country of origin where everyone feels sympathetic towards “their GSD” in one decade the number of GSD used by border police and customs officials decreased by 70 percent ! “

That was a comment written by they authors in 2007 . Here we are nearly 10 years later .
How has this changed.
For the positive? I don't think so.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Anyone taken a look at what the AKC/CKC has done to Border Collies in just a few short years? And they've had decades with GSD's.

I've pulled some surprisingly solid dogs from puppy farms, BYB's and rescues. A few who became service dogs, a couple that became SAR dogs, one or two did respectable at patrol work, etc.
Sabi was a BYB dog and she did protection, tracking, detection, showed natural herding/guardian ability-chickens and ducks-and was a friend to all children. Further, with less then stellar breeding and health she stayed sound long enough to put in 9 years of work. That sounds very much like a German Shepherd to me.
How many breeders are producing these go anywhere, do anything dogs? The IPO breeders are often producing dogs that are to much for, say a farmer? One who wants an all around dog that can help out, watch the property and go fishing with the kids.
The showline dogs often lack any work ability at all, except maybe tracking.
I am NOT saying BYB's are the way to go, not at all.
Perhaps if some, not all, breeders took a better look at the real reason people turn to local, farm bred dogs, because it isn't all about price, we would be on the right track.
I searched endlessly for a breeder who could give me a solid, healthy, companion with the ability to be trained as a working dog. 

End Rant.:laugh2:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

David Winners said:


> Add the screw loose mentality of nearly all Dutch Shepherds to the mix and it compounds the difficulty of everything Carmen mentioned above. *They can be very reactive dogs, and you have to move faster in your head than they do. *
> 
> A good GSD is good at everything. They are a utility breed, suitable for everything from service dog work to protection. It's also easier to find a good dutchie as a far higher percentage are being bred for work. If you get a good GSD, it will be more than enough dog for personal protection and it will probably be easier to live with than DS or Mal.


If I was in LE or deployed to a war zone where a split second is the difference between life and death, I would feel much more comfortable with a Dutch or Mal over a GSD (again, this goes for the DS, Mals, GSD's that I've come in contact with). For the exact same reason you stated above, they are quicker and more reactive than any GSDs I've seen. If I had a family, a home, and I need a home protection dog I would take a nice big GSD over a DS or Mal....but then again the quickness of the mals makes me think twice.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hey, speaking of screw loose mentality ;-) ...Slam-dunc... time for an update on Boru... separate thread of course.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Julian G said:


> If I was in LE or deployed to a war zone where a split second is the difference between life and death, I would feel much more comfortable with a Dutch or Mal over a GSD (again, this goes for the DS, Mals, GSD's that I've come in contact with). For the exact same reason you stated above, they are quicker and more reactive than any GSDs I've seen. If I had a family, a home, and I need a home protection dog I would take a nice big GSD over a DS or Mal....but then again the quickness of the mals makes me think twice.


I would recommend that you do read K9 Working Breeds (character and capabilities)

Unlike yourself , I would choose a good GSD as my partner in any high pressure , highly stimulating situation exactly for the opposite reason you would choose a Mal . That is the issue of reactivity . Quicker and more reactive , not necessarily a good thing.
The dog never goes to a neutral position . 
In the search to produce "hot" flashy sport dogs this is a quality which is being lost to GSD as well.

That neutral position , so useful for a herding dog , and a guarding dog , is the period where the dog is still actively attentive , but not emotionally or physically engaged. Alert and vigilant.
The period where the sheep are contained and peacefully grazing. 
Vigilant . 
This speaks to balance.

Being constantly on and reactive has physical consequences , sometimes fatal.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> *I've pulled some surprisingly solid dogs from puppy farms, BYB's and rescues.* A few who became service dogs, a couple that became SAR dogs, one or two did respectable at patrol work, etc.
> Sabi was a BYB dog and she did protection, tracking, detection, showed natural herding/guardian ability-chickens and ducks-and was a friend to all children. Further, with less then stellar breeding and health she stayed sound long enough to put in 9 years of work. That sounds very much like a German Shepherd to me.


I've had similar experiences. I've seen a few rescued GSD's, with unknown breeding and pedigrees, who turned out to be quite capable in a few functional areas. So it's definitely *possible* to find some decent dogs out of AKC or even BYB breeding, but it just isn't as likely as say going with a GSD of Czech or German breeding.



Sabis mom said:


> How many breeders are producing these go anywhere, do anything dogs? The IPO breeders are often producing dogs that are to much for, say a farmer? One who wants an all around dog that can help out, watch the property and go fishing with the kids.
> The showline dogs often lack any work ability at all, except maybe tracking.
> I am NOT saying BYB's are the way to go, not at all.
> *Perhaps if some, not all, breeders took a better look at the real reason people turn to local, farm bred dogs*, because it isn't all about price, we would be on the right track.
> ...


Also agree with this. I know 'farm dog' is a broad and vague term and you're not necessarily guaranteed of quality by getting one....but at the very least there is a greater likelihood of the some sort of functional purpose behind the dog's breeding and upbringing. The same can't be said for someone who is breeding GSD's purely for looks and AKC-style of show-ring conformation. 

And yeah, by no means do I think that every GSD bred and sold needs to be some edgey, highly-strung sport dog or patrol-style K9. A well-balanced temperament is key. In an ideal world, breeders would be training their dogs in at least 1-2 functional areas, whether it be herding, tracking, IPO, scent-work, farm work, protection...something that is at least functional and demonstrates the dog's abilities and character and ensures the right traits are being passed on. Simply running your dog around a show-ring for ribbons just doesn't suffice IMHO.




carmspack said:


> I would recommend that you do read K9 Working Breeds (character and capabilities)
> 
> Unlike yourself , I would choose a good GSD as my partner in any high pressure , highly stimulating situation exactly for the opposite reason you would choose a Mal . That is the issue of reactivity . Quicker and more reactive , not necessarily a good thing.
> The dog never goes to a neutral position .
> ...


Hear, hear! The GSD, traditionally speaking, was not bred to be a flashy, overly reactive sport or K9 dog. And I don't think anyone should be breeding them to that standard. If someone wants those characteristics, there are other herding breeds which fit that mold.

Like you said, balance is key part of a GSD's temperament that should not be lost. And it certainly lends itself to a multitude of functional activities, including police and wartime duties.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> Hey, speaking of screw loose mentality ;-) ...Slam-dunc... time for an update on Boru... separate thread of course.


Ha! I really don't think I have a "screw loose mentality." But, some may disagree. 

When it comes to those times where things go sideways in my line of work, I'll take a good Belgian Malinois anyday. Boomer is a super GSD, one in a thousand, once in a lifetime dog for me. Great Patrol dog, super outstanding narcotics detection and an excellent SWAT dog. I would take another like him in a heartbeat, if I could find one. He is also reactive under pressure, when the door pops he comes out like a fur missile and will btie anyone in his way to the target. He has a lot of apprehensions and taken the fight out of a bunch of guys over the years, but he has also nailed a few cops in the process. As mentioned already, when it gets serious and stressful, the dogs react. Quick to react is not just a Malinois thing, but a highly charged and driven dog thing. 

Boru, he's doing fine. He is still a handful, but he is a beast. I have some video from training the other night that I need to post. The decoys take him very seriously, he really brings it. When I get him on the street and things get serious, I have complete confidence that he will handle business. I am still going to give extra warnings and plead with the foolish bad guy to not run or fight. This is one dog that makes me feel a little bad for releasing when the time comes, knowing what he will do and what he is capable of. 

I recently saw a super nice GSD in training with a Tier 1 military team. Super dog and I was surprised they even had a GSD, but he was great. It was nice to see that GSD, gives me some hope. The rest were all malinois or Mali X's.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I would recommend that you do read K9 Working Breeds (character and capabilities)
> 
> Unlike yourself , I would choose a good GSD as my partner in any high pressure , highly stimulating situation exactly for the opposite reason you would choose a Mal . That is the issue of reactivity . Quicker and more reactive , not necessarily a good thing.
> *The dog never goes to a neutral position* .
> ...


Well of coarse you would, this IS a GSD forum 
I disagree about the neutral position thing, I have seen Dutchies go from Tasmanian Devil mode to an alert, quiet, down stay with the drop of a hat. Again, it comes down to training. 
But if I'm dealing with a dangerous and armed perpetrator, and a split second is the difference between life and death...I would rather send in the quicker (yet edgier) mal over the slower (yet more stable) gsd. I say this with the risk of generalizing both breeds, and I think you are guilty of it as well generalizing Mals and DS as being hot and flashy incapable of being neutral. I'm just saying from what I have seen in person; I have never seen a dog engage an attacker faster than the mal or dutch. I have seen GSD's engage the attacker with the same ferociousness but NOT with the same speed as the ds/mal and nobody should be surprised by this because Mals are known for being smaller and more agile than GSDs. This is all I meant because that split second is so important in the real world.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Well of coarse you would, this IS a GSD forum
> I disagree about the neutral position thing, I have seen Dutchies go from Tasmanian Devil mode to an alert, quiet, down stay with the drop of a hat. Again, it comes down to training.
> But if I'm dealing with a dangerous and armed perpetrator, and a split second is the difference between life and death...I would rather send in the quicker (yet edgier) mal over the slower (yet more stable) gsd. I say this with the risk of generalizing both breeds, and I think you are guilty of it as well generalizing Mals and DS as being hot and flashy incapable of being neutral. I'm just saying from what I have seen in person; I have never seen a dog engage an attacker faster than the mal or dutch. I have seen GSD's engage the attacker with the same ferociousness but NOT with the same speed as the ds/mal and nobody should be surprised by this because Mals are known for being smaller and more agile than GSDs. *This is all I meant because that split second is so important in the real world.*


Meh...speed isn't everything IMHO when it comes to life-or-death situations. There was a saying widely used by many combat arms units, though it got popularized by a specific high-speed unit: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Sometimes over-reacting or reacting too quickly can be just as deadly as not reacting at all. And units/people that were quick to focus in one specific threat sometimes risked getting tunnel vision and ignoring other, more dangerous threats.

Consistency. Level-headedness (not a word lol). Smooth, but efficient, action. Those were the principles that many combat units stressed above all else when conducting training and deployments. Yeah, an ultra-fast "2 in the chest, one the head" rifle drill or a dog that quickly covers the distance between a handler and a bad guy is very impressive and certainly useful in certain situations...but that's not the end-all-be-all of combat. If one dog ran up to and engaged a bad guy a fraction of a second faster than another dog, it really wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run. What most combat handlers truly cared about was that the dog was capable of reliable, consistent and effective performance throughout a spectrum of operating environments.

As for the issue of stability, flashliness (also not a word lol), and speed of GSD's vs Malinois, you're absolutely right that there are some generalizations being put out there, though perhaps with at least some element of truth. However, if you go watch certain dog trials like French Ring, Mondioring and certain protection sports, Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois are usually the most competitive (and thus the preferred breed for such sports) because their speed, agility, and flashy apprehensions and bites garner higher scores from the judges. Such attributes are no doubt relevant to "real world" situations, but to say they're the most important is a bit of a stretch IMO.

I think certain breeders focus in on certain venues and sport-inspired characteristics, which then influences what type of dog that is available for both government and civilian buyers (similar to what Mycobraracr was saying earlier). This is probably true of many European GSD breeders as well, though I think it's perhaps a little bit easier to find GSD's with more balanced qualities. 

Still though, I'd rather have this problem than have the problem of dealing with a show-focused dog with mediocre drives and a poor disposition.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dalko43 said:


> Meh...speed isn't everything IMHO when it comes to life-or-death situations. There was a saying widely used by many combat arms units, though it got popularized by a specific high-speed unit: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Sometimes over-reacting or reacting too quickly can be just as deadly as not reacting at all. And units/people that were quick to focus in one specific threat sometimes risked getting tunnel vision and ignoring other, more dangerous threats.
> 
> Consistency. Level-headedness (not a word lol). Smooth, but efficient, action. Those were the principles that many combat units stressed above all else when conducting training and deployments. Yeah, an ultra-fast "2 in the chest, one the head" rifle drill or a dog that quickly covers the distance between a handler and a bad guy is very impressive and certainly useful in certain situations...but that's not the end-all-be-all of combat. * If one dog ran up to and engaged a bad guy a fraction of a second faster than another dog, it really wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run.* What most combat handlers truly cared about was that the dog was capable of reliable, consistent and effective performance throughout a spectrum of operating environments.
> 
> ...


I think it would. A bad guy with a gun who can pull the trigger because he had enough time to do so? Or can let off ANOTHER shot because he has the time to do so? Think about it.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wait a few more years and you may be able to get a robot ppd dog :wink2:


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I think this risks devolving into a which is better mal/ds or GSD for ppd. It probably is not a helpful discussion aside from the part about have the GSDs lost something through their popularity and indiscriminate breeding. I think there is a lot of evidence for that. But other than that I think there are many factors that go into which type of dog you would want to work with. I think of the GSD as a more thoughtful soul. I guess I think of the mal/ds as having that potential for being a bezerker. But that can be way fun and intense to work with.

Wikipedia: Berserkers (or berserks) were champion Norse warriors who are primarily reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. These Viking champions would often go into battle without mail-coats; the word "berserk" meant going into battle wearing only wolf or animal skins.[1] Berserkers are attested to in numerous Old Norse sources.

Like the berserker and what others who have worked on battlefields (of various sorts) can attest to, the mal/ds can be over the top, reckless, and ****-bent on getting a bite in or getting the job done sometimes to the detriment of self or other parts of the mission.. They give up some thoughtfulness. While I have no real background in this... I do believe an army of berserkers would not be very manageable. But one here and there.... I dunno, seems like it worked for the Vikings.

I like both breeds really. They are different. The nature of the handler matters here too. It is true the mal/ds think really fast and you better be there with them. That can be exhausting and scary and worrisome. It took me a big investment to rise to the handler I needed to be with my DS... and he isn't an over the top ds at all. 

Anyway, just thoughts.... I think I will name my next DS Berserk. ;-)


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I think it would. A bad guy with a gun who can pull the trigger because he had enough time to do so? Or can let off ANOTHER shot because he has the time to do so? Think about it.


Well if a bad guy was aiming a gun at me or my team, I'd likely be directing my unit's firepower or employing my own instead of sending a dog in.

I see where you're going with this, but I think you're analyzing this through the context of Hollywood action flicks, with those scenes where the good guy outshoots or defeats the bad guy because he was a fraction of a second faster. Real life combat isn't like that. When bullets start flying or bombs start going off, no amount of instincts is going to allow a human or a dog to dodge those flying pieces of metal. You might get lucky and avoid getting hit while you seek cover and return fire, and certainly the quickness of your reaction is important in such a situation.

But having the presence of mind to identify, prioritize and deal with incoming threats is much more important. The same applies for a dog. 

Obviously you want a dog that will react quickly in such situations. But to say that Dog A is more suitable for military duties than Dog B because it covers 30 meters in 1/10 of a second faster is foolish. That slight time delta is statistically irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What is far more important is that the dog (which ever breed it is) stays focused under pressure, listens to handler commands and is effective at its job (whether that be clamping onto bad guys or sniffing out bombs).


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

DutchKarin said:


> I think this risks devolving into a which is better mal/ds or GSD for ppd. It probably is not a helpful discussion aside from the part about have the GSDs lost something through their popularity and indiscriminate breeding.


I don't think we were really heading that way, though I'd admit the thread is getting away from the original topic. I think the conversation was more focused on which characteristics are more desirable for protection or life-or-death situations, not necessarily which breed.




DutchKarin said:


> I think of the GSD as a more thoughtful soul. * I guess I think of the mal/ds as having that potential for being a bezerker. *But that can be way fun and intense to work with.
> 
> Wikipedia: Berserkers (or berserks) were champion Norse warriors who are primarily reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. These Viking champions would often go into battle without mail-coats; the word "berserk" meant going into battle wearing only wolf or animal skins.[1] Berserkers are attested to in numerous Old Norse sources.
> 
> ...


LOL....I love how after you try to deescalate the thread from a potential breed debate you immediately use the terms "thoughtful soul" and "berserker" when describing the GSD and Belgian Malinois respectively. You're not very good at hiding your bias...

I won't comment on whether or not I think your "berserker" analogy is accurate as it applies to the Belgian Malinois, as I don't think such a, shall I say, unique comparison adds much to the conversation. I will say that while there is some historical basis for the berserker, the way it is referenced and used in modern culture is often based on hype and myth. 

"Berserker" referred more to a fighting mentality rather than a real-life historical unit or group. There were historical accounts of individual fighters, or groups, going berserk during a battle, and it was not something that was invented by or unique to the Vikings. It often entailed losing all sense of command hierarchy and obedience to orders as much as it did killing the enemy, so it was not necessarily an effective way to fight. 

The Vikings weren't successful because they had some reckless, uncontrollable rage that gave them a fighting edge over opposing armies. They were successful (for a while) because they targeted vulnerable settlements and kingdoms, and they often withdrew to their homelands or fortified strongholds when they sensed their attacks had lost momentum. 

The notion that berserkers went into battle without armor is based mostly on misinterpretation and myth. The most widely-cited example of that is the Battle of Stamford Bridge between the Saxons and Norwegians (one of several Viking groups) in Northern England (which incidentally the Norwegians lost). Many of the Norwegians fought the battle without armor, but that was because they were caught off guard by the Saxon attack, not because they were trying to act tough. There was also an incident in the battle where a lone Norwegian warrior held off much of the Saxon army as it tried to cross a bridge (hence the battle's name); he was widely referenced as being a "berserker," but again, this may have been over-hyped, as ultimately the warrior died, the Saxons crossed the bridge and soundly defeated the Norwegian army. The Saxons and the Norwegians (both were of similar northern Germanic descent) heavily emphasized the warrior ethos and machismo behavior; so this particular warrior's actions were eulogized, and perhaps embellished, by both sides. It was rare for any warrior back then to willingly engage in melee combat without any form of armor or protection; that was a good way to get yourself hacked up on the battlefield or die from infected wounds. 


Okay, so now that we're way off topic, I'm wondering who is going to volunteer to do the historical analysis of the term "thoughtful soul?"


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dalko43 said:


> Well if a bad guy was aiming a gun at me or my team, I'd likely be directing my unit's firepower or employing my own instead of sending a dog in.
> 
> I see where you're going with this, but I think you're analyzing this through the context of Hollywood action flicks, with those scenes where the good guy outshoots or defeats the bad guy because he was a fraction of a second faster. Real life combat isn't like that. When bullets start flying or bombs start going off, no amount of instincts is going to allow a human or a dog to dodge those flying pieces of metal. You might get lucky and avoid getting hit while you seek cover and return fire, and certainly the quickness of your reaction is important in such a situation.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to have to disagree with you. Split seconds matter. Everyone I've talked to who does real police or military dog work all prefer the mal/dutch because of their speed and their ability to not think but follow commands no matter what. They all say the GSD is a slower dog and they take a second longer to think or assess the situation. That might be an advantage in other fields and that is probably better suitable for a family protection situation, but if I need a dog to run 50 yards then jump over a car and bite the perp I'm sending in the faster dog.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I'm just going to have to disagree with you. Split seconds matter. Everyone I've talked to who does real police or military dog work all prefer the mal/dutch because of their speed and their ability to not think but follow commands no matter what.


Well I've been in those types of situations, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that both dogs are fast enough to get the job done; that's why they're both still used for military duties. And like I said before, speed isn't everything. A fast dog that isn't good at its designated job or ignores handler commands in stressful environments doesn't bring much to the table.

So yes, the Malinois dogs are, in general, a little bit faster....but you're really splitting hairs by getting fixated on that. After all, it's not like the GSD is a "slow" dog; it's just slightly *slower*, again generally speaking, relative to the Malinois. That's an important distinction to keep in mind.

And saying something like "split seconds matter" is cliche. That's just not how people in the military think.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sounds like mals have an edge on overall health and longevity, which could lead to longer service life and something end users may consider. Our own sheriff and city police dept have stuck with gsds, though both have had a couple mals. I spoke to one handler at a fund raiser about their preference and was told besides working capability it's imperative they be social. Are gsds more social than mals? Not sure in my own limited experience but if so I could see this being a factor depending on a departments requirements.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

It's not so much the "split seconds" that matter, but the intensity, focus and determination. It is the mentality and drive to go through anything to reach it's target or perform it's task. It's the desire, drive and ability to work and perform a job, what ever that task might be in even the most extreme environments. Sure, many dogs can perform and do an adequate job, not all do an exceptional job at a variety of tasks. Some do quite well at detection work, not all do so well at actually engaging and fighting determined suspects. 

For me, I can get any dog with decent drives and a strong temperament to track and do detection work well. IMHO, a good patrol prospect will be a good dual purpose Patrol / Detection dog down the road. Taking an average working dog that does a decent job overall, is not the dog that I want for our unit. There is simply to much at stake for the overly versatile dog to do the job these days. The outstanding LE dog is a very specialized animal. The dog must have high drives, high prey, strong nerves, confident, natural defense and the nerve strength to handle the drives. These dogs do not always make great pets and they don't need to be pets. Not every handler can work these dogs and that is a shame. I often feel very sorry and concerned for the handlers that I meet from smaller PD's with marginal dogs, often dogs that shouldn't be doing the job, IMO. 

Again, it's not the seconds or the speed that make the difference, it is what the dog brings, the whole package, that makes the difference. But, speed and the accompanying commitment is very, very important as well.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> Sounds like mals have an edge on overall health and longevity, which could lead to longer service life and something end users may consider. Our own sheriff and city police dept have stuck with gsds, though both have had a couple mals. I spoke to one handler at a fund raiser about their preference and was told besides working capability it's imperative they be social. Are gsds more social than mals? Not sure in my own limited experience but if so I could see this being a factor depending on a departments requirements.


No, GSd's are not necessarily more social than a Malinois. We have some very Malinois in out unit. Sociableness really depends on the dog. 

It is troubling that PD's are placing that much emphasis on their dogs being social. IMO, a LE dog has to be social enough to work around other Officers or SWAT operators, the dog must be neutral in crowds and under control. A LE K-9 does not need to be "Lassie," and "Lassie" would be a horrible Police dog. Citizens should not be petting or touching LE K-9's, allowing someone to pet a K-9 is really unacceptable. It is counterproductive to the job and creates a lot of potential liability. Allowing children or adults to pet a Police K-9, is really a very bad idea and Department policy should address this. 

I recently was asked by another Agency to go and test and select a dog for them. There requirements were that the dog must be a GSD and must be "social." I was also testing dogs for my PD. When discussing dogs and what I like in a Patrol dog, the LT stated "I don't think our handler can work a dog like you want." We need something much easier and less aggressive. I tested and found a nice GSD for him, that had high hunt and prey drive, but little civil aggression. A dog that I passed on for my unit, but was what he wanted. Perhaps, I expect too much or have different standards? We do a dangerous job, I would feel terrible if one of my handlers was hurt because their dog failed to engage or engaged half heartedly.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> No, GSd's are not necessarily more social than a Malinois. We have some very Malinois in out unit. Sociableness really depends on the dog.
> 
> It is troubling that PD's are placing that much emphasis on their dogs being social. IMO, a LE dog has to be social enough to work around other Officers or SWAT operators, the dog must be neutral in crowds and under control. A LE K-9 does not need to be "Lassie," and "Lassie" would be a horrible Police dog. Citizens should not be petting or touching LE K-9's, allowing someone to pet a K-9 is really unacceptable. It is counterproductive to the job and creates a lot of potential liability. Allowing children or adults to pet a Police K-9, is really a very bad idea and Department policy should address this.
> 
> I recently was asked by another Agency to go and test and select a dog for them. There requirements were that the dog must be a GSD and must be "social." I was also testing dogs for my PD. When discussing dogs and what I like in a Patrol dog, the LT stated "I don't think our handler can work a dog like you want." We need something much easier and less aggressive. I tested and found a nice GSD for him, that had high hunt and prey drive, but little civil aggression. A dog that I passed on for my unit, but was what he wanted. Perhaps, I expect too much or have different standards? We do a dangerous job, I would feel terrible if one of my handlers was hurt because their dog failed to engage or engaged half heartedly.


I didn't ask the officer to elaborate, to many other folks asking questions, his description of "social" could be exactly as yours. I highly doubt he was referring to you're depiction here, none of the K9's present were petted or getting belly rubs, LOL!!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dalko43 said:


> Well I've been in those types of situations, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that both dogs are fast enough to get the job done; that's why they're both still used for military duties. And like I said before, speed isn't everything. * A fast dog that isn't good at its designated job or ignores handler commands in stressful environments doesn't bring much to the table.
> *
> So yes, the Malinois dogs are, in general, a little bit faster....but you're really splitting hairs by getting fixated on that. After all, it's not like the GSD is a "slow" dog; it's just slightly *slower*, again generally speaking, relative to the Malinois. That's an important distinction to keep in mind.
> 
> And saying something like "split seconds matter" is cliche. That's just not how people in the military think.


Are you trying to say that mals/ds ignore the handler in stressful environments? If so I have to take exception to that. Mals were used on the raid on Bin Laden, mals are used every single day in LE and the military to perform many tasks under stressful environments. I'm not at all saying that they are "better" than GSDs, but from what I have personally seen, they can perform any task a GSD can and probably quicker. There's really no point in arguing about nothing because a true GSD is basically the same dog as a mal/dutch. They all come from the same herding dogs found on the hills and farms of Germany/Belgium/Holland. All those countries border each other.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Sounds like mals have an edge on overall health and longevity, which could lead to longer service life and something end users may consider. Our own sheriff and city police dept have stuck with gsds, though both have had a couple mals. I spoke to one handler at a fund raiser about their preference and was told besides working capability *it's imperative they be social.* Are gsds more social than mals? Not sure in my own limited experience but if so I could see this being a factor depending on a departments requirements.


Is it possible that the word social is being misused? Do they mean more discerning? Social seems an odd need for LE. I know some handlers take their dogs home, some do not, but ANY GSD worthy of work should be capable of being in a home when they are off duty. Having only ever handled one Mal I couldn't comment on them as a breed.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Is it possible that the word social is being misused? Do they mean more discerning? Social seems an odd need for LE. I know some handlers take their dogs home, some do not, but ANY GSD worthy of work should be capable of being in a home when they are off duty. Having only ever handled one Mal I couldn't comment on them as a breed.


It's possible, I see lots of terms used differently here and irl, "civil" comes to mind and still confuses me a bit. I recall seeing a fund raiser to rebuild one of our departments kennels. It said something to the effect that while most dogs do live with their handlers a kennel was necessary for handlers on vacation or dogs coming in for training ect.. I know very few mals/Dutchies so I try to get whatever insight I can from here.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Is it possible that the word social is being misused? Do they mean more discerning? Social seems an odd need for LE. I know some handlers take their dogs home, some do not, but ANY GSD worthy of work should be capable of being in a home when they are off duty. Having only ever handled one Mal I couldn't comment on them as a breed.





Nigel said:


> It's possible, I see lots of terms used differently here and irl, "civil" comes to mind and still confuses me a bit. I recall seeing a fund raiser to rebuild one of our departments kennels. It said something to the effect that while most dogs do live with their handlers a kennel was necessary for handlers on vacation or dogs coming in for training ect.. I know very few mals/Dutchies so I try to get whatever insight I can from here.


From what I have learned, "social" is being familiar with different people, noises, situations. It does NOT mean having the dog be petted by strangers. "Civil" is a bit confusing because it doesn't have anything to do with being civil, from my understanding a "civil" dog is a dog that has no problem fighting a human. Most dogs can be trained to bite a sleeve, but maybe 1% of dogs have the right genetics to bite and fight a man for real.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> It's possible, I see lots of terms used differently here and irl, "civil" comes to mind and still confuses me a bit. I recall seeing a fund raiser to rebuild one of our departments kennels. It said something to the effect that while most dogs do live with their handlers a kennel was necessary for handlers on vacation or dogs coming in for training ect.. I know very few mals/Dutchies so I try to get whatever insight I can from here.


Our LE dogs here live in kennels. In fact I drive past the kennel-and the stable-on my way to work every day. To the best of my knowledge the RCMP dogs are also kenneled. 

We had a Mal for a while as part of our patrol team, I was not a fan. I found the energy level tiring and TBH I did not like his temperament, to quick to react. I know he was sold as a PPD to someone, the few times I worked him I could not wait for the end of my shift. I couldn't imagine having to live with him and wasn't sorry to see him go. Nice enough dog I suppose, and super smart, but sort of like the Energizer Bunny on speed. He sort of killed any desire to ever own one, although I still like watching them work/trial.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are many misconceptions about the routine duties of LE dog. It is not prudent to base effectiveness of LE dog on hypothetical situations that almost never happens. Kinda like saying we prefer or seek LE officers that are expert/sharpshooters, when probably 80% of Officers never or maybe one or two times discharge their firearms. I have worked with hundreds of K9 officers over the years, and can probably count on one hand how many that the split second speed of their dog made that dog a better choice in a " real" situation. Possible....well yes, about as possible as officers shooting the guns out of perps hands. Sounds good, but mostly hypothetical ! 
A good GS is every bit as competent as good Mal or Dutchie, and they prove it every day all over the world. The real issue is there are more GS than the others, AND a higher percent that can't do LE work.jmo


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Are you trying to say that mals/ds ignore the handler in stressful environments?


That's not at all what I was saying.

I was saying that you were *putting too much emphasis* on speed and agility, at least as it relates to the GSD and Malinois, while ignoring other attributes like obedience, levelheadedness, work ethic which are much more relevant to real world work.

The minor differences aside, which you and I have both acknowledged, the GSD and Malinois both bring more than enough speed and agility to the table, relatively speaking. A dog should be chosen for work because of its inherent attributes and potential, not because of broad generalizations associated with its breed.

Go read what Cliffson1 wrote; he summed it up very nicely.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogs in military and law enforcement use are not bullet stoppers.

the majority of work is FIND THEM, which protects their handlers by alerting them to the presence and allowing them to organize a response and to get them into target .

The dog , and handlers, work best when the action is PROACTIVE. Here is a problem, let's take care of it.
Neither does best work when the action comes out of ALARM and is reactive.

That is the problem with excitable dogs . They are constantly alarmed - on edge . 
Taxing and after time not efficient.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have said before and I will say again: for the average handler in everyday situations, there is no better dog a GSD. There capacity to forgive rookie mistakes, their ability to bond like no other and their drive to master any and all tasks makes them a breed apart. 
As someone who spent endless lonely nights in a truck with only my dog for company, back up and support, their is no other breed I would honestly want to put a leash on. 
Keep the flash, and the speed. The dog I want at my back when **** gets real is the dog with the clear head, the dog with the brains to think it out, the one who thinks I am the world.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

zetti said:


> If you get into a really tight spot, bluff. Grab your dogs collar and tell her something like "Not yet, Rocco , not yet, easy." That sort of thing.


I really love this! It reminds me of when I play hide and seek with my pup. I grab her by the collar and pull her back and it gets her so pumped up to find the person. When I finally let go she flies!


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> I just wanted to amplify something David said. When you put the PPD training on a dog, you are committing yourself to continuous training. Like every week so that you are well practiced and in control. It must be part of your lifestyle. You just don't train them up to PPD and then think you are good to go forever. That is when the risk of a bad situation and liability increase.
> 
> My two are not PPD trained at all, one is a SAR dog, both protect the house and no one is coming in uninvited. I have complete confidence in that.


Our pup has had a lot of training but its been privates and group classes to teach the basic puppy stuff like heel, down, stay, etc.. Im interested in getting involved with our IPO club but the nearest one to my house is over an hour drive. They told me they want people who will commit to a weekly basis and invited me to visit as many times as I wanted before I decided I was sure we wanted to join. So thats kind of where we are as far as our level of commitment to training. I wouldn't call it our lifestyle just yet lol


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Wow this thread got side tracked and a little out of control for me! But thats ok because I read the whole thing, I learned a lot and will always have it to reference and look back on. Im just going to add to the Mal/GSD debate lol I think both breeds are amazing. I actually cant figure out which breed I want next! I recently became a big fan of Dutch shepherds as well. We all have our favorite breeds, the ones who we think are the best no matter what. There is nothing anyone can ever say to change it. 

Back to the original topic, the thread was extremely informative. I was never planning on getting a PPD tomorrow out of fear. I wanted to become more informed on the topic so that I could decide if a PPD was something I should continue to consider. After this thread, I do not want to get a PPD. I realized that the level of commitment required to maintain this dog outweighs the "protection" I would get out of it. I once heard someone say that a GSD belongs with a family that is already active, not a family that wishes to be active. I think the same analogy applies to a PPD. A PPD belongs to a person who has experience with them, or at the very least with dog sports, IPO, etc... Im better off making sure that my next pup is an excellent IPO prospect and learning as I go with that puppy. 

Besides if two scary dogs wont stop an intruder then I don't really know what will.


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## NinaYDana (May 5, 2016)

zetti said:


> Amen.


It is incredible how strong the genetic component is. Two nights ago I was walking my 7 month old female (mixed working line) puppy when 40 metres away a drunk/high on something crazy guy was yelling and banging on shop windows, when he decided to run straight towards us, screaming. When he was within 4m of distance, my little dog went crazy, barking and growling at him and taking a defensive positioning, effectively scaring the bejeezus out of this dude. She was tense and super-alert for the rest of the walk, looking over her shoulder at every turn and sniffing the air constantly in a commanding posture. I have NEVER done ANY defense work with her, at this point I have limited her to obedience and prey-drive bite work, so it truly amazed me that she had it in her to do it. Clearly, the genetic makeup of the dog might determine their initial reaction in situations of defense, then I believe one has to foment this drive. For example if this dude had pulled out a pipe and struck her, maybe she would have been scarred. However, I think that scaring the guy made her confidence grow.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> I really love this! It reminds me of when I play hide and seek with my pup. I grab her by the collar and pull her back and it gets her so pumped up to find the person. When I finally let go she flies!


Absolutely. Restraint will increase drive. This trick can work and it's worth a try if you're in a bad situation. It's one time you might be happy to have a reactive dog if you have one. You can be saying the words "Not now" or "Easy, boy", but use an excited voice to motivate the dog. Criminals are stupid.

And it is totally ok to mislead Bad Guys.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Agaribay805 said:


> Wow this thread got side tracked and a little out of control for me! But thats ok because I read the whole thing, I learned a lot and will always have it to reference and look back on. Im just going to add to the Mal/GSD debate lol I think both breeds are amazing. I actually cant figure out which breed I want next! I recently became a big fan of Dutch shepherds as well. We all have our favorite breeds, the ones who we think are the best no matter what. There is nothing anyone can ever say to change it.
> 
> Back to the original topic, the thread was extremely informative. I was never planning on getting a PPD tomorrow out of fear. I wanted to become more informed on the topic so that I could decide if a PPD was something I should continue to consider. After this thread, I do not want to get a PPD. I realized that the level of commitment required to maintain this dog outweighs the "protection" I would get out of it. I once heard someone say that a GSD belongs with a family that is already active, not a family that wishes to be active. I think the same analogy applies to a PPD. A PPD belongs to a person who has experience with them, or at the very least with dog sports, IPO, etc... Im better off making sure that my next pup is an excellent IPO prospect and learning as I go with that puppy.
> 
> Besides if two scary dogs wont stop an intruder then I don't really know what will.


I was told not long ago by someone in law enforcement that barking dogs are no longer the crime deterrent they once were, unfortunately. Criminals understand that most dogs are kept as pets and won't bite.

He recommended having additional security in the form of a good alarm system (we use Simply Safe and it performed flawlessly when we needed it to in our previous sketchy neighborhood). The NRA also offers excellent training courses in using firearms for personal protection, including a course specifically for women. For home defense, you aren't limited to a handgun, you can keep a shotgun. In any case, that is the ultimate defensive weapon, provided the firearm owner has had proper education in its use and keeping.

All of that being said, I still believe there is value in a good, deep German Shepherd bark. And the appearance of a GSD deters a lot of would be attackers on the street, if the dog is well trained and appears to be under the owners control.

Unfortunately, we're living in an era when shooting police officers is fashionable and GSDs are vulnerable due to their long association with law enforcement. Your dog could be the target of an attack. 

You are making a wise decision in not getting a PPD. It's so complicated. Just not getting ripped off buying the dog is a lengthy thread all by itself.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

So much helpful information in this thread for anyone interested in buying a PPD! I've always lived in upper-middle class suburbs with no crazies around, so I've never really considered the need for any sort of protection. However, now that I'm 18 and planning on getting a job in the city (Dallas) and moving the next town over to live on my own and live closer to my future job, I was starting to do some research on protection. I would never own a fiream because I've never even seen a real one in real life, didn't grow up around them, and they just make me uneasy. I have nothing against them, I just personally wouldn't feel comfortable owning one myself. I'm already planning to buy mace first thing when I have the money to and will definitely be taking that to work with me (I'll be working at a strip club in a big city). I have no desire to get a PPD (or another dog in general for a while!), but it sounds like a well-trained, "intimidating-looking" breed can usually help ward off some criminals anyway? I already have a 70 lb working line, solid black GSD that knows basic to more advanced obedience, although it needs to be proofed around other dogs since he is dog reactive. He perks his ears up, looks at, and is clearly interested when he sees strangers, but I just tell him to leave it and his attention snaps right back to me/our walk (I wish I could get him to ignore other dogs this easily! It's a work in progress..). Now my little 4 lb Yorkie absolutely LOVES strangers, and goes nuts trying to go say hi to them. However, she has very good intuition and can tell if someone's a "bad" guy because she will growl and bark at them instead (and I've only ever seen her act like this toward 2 people in her life, and she's 9 years old now). So I feel like my best option will be to buy mace, solidify Kody's obedience, and maybe teach him a bark & hold.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good points, Tulip, I feel the same way about firearms, but working at a strip club really puts you at risk. Be careful out there, and maybe invest in a women's self-defense course.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> .... but working at a strip club really puts you at risk. Be careful out there, and *maybe invest in a women's self-defense course.*


 @Tulip the above is good advice. If you take a course with a good instructor, you'll learn things that will increase your awareness, confidence, and skill set, IME.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

A course sounds like a good idea. Awareness is a biggie and it's easy to get wrapped up in your own thoughts and miss things going on around you. I was by myself hooking up/moving trailers last week at work, no one else around or so I thought. The next thing I know there's a cop looking into some gated areas in front of my truck and before long there were more cops arresting a guy who was hiding near by. Made me think about my own skills, lol


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

In a quick google search for your area with invasion & kidnap the word dog and specifically, GSD is in none of the stories that I could find. There are big differences in a PPD and a dog trained to show aggression and bite. Most people and families do not need a PPD dog. I think the info on bad guys knowing pets is unimportant, even if fact, which I highly doubt. Many officers can not determine a dog as a threat so a shmuck wanting your purse or some serious pedo wanting your kid will almost always choose the one without the GSD in the house most all the time. 

Consider a PPD when there is a real threat. A properly bred and then trained GSD provides a lot of protection from the average and even savvy bad guy if only for the softer easy target perception, which is huge.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Zetta, I think was how the name was spelled, said something at the beginning that I agree with. A well trained dog can be intimidating. When my collie was six months old we were in the middle of a military move. Only my boys, age 5 and 6 and I were still in Leavenworth living in a empty house waiting for to move to our next Post the next day. At nine pm someone walked into the house, a very large biker. Before I could react my collie came flying in from the back of the house. Without thinking I raised my arm and called 'Flat'! She dropped. I called her to heel on one command and she jumped up and ran to my side spinning in a border collie turn into heel position. He went white, stammering that there was a for sale/for rent sign outside and he wanted to see the house. Right. And he just walked in? He turned and ran. The standard joke about my collie was if there was ever a death it would be by accidental drowning, she licked them to death. But because of her instant obedience, he ran. 


The other day I had the shock of my life when my four year old Golden Retriever started growling. I'd never heard him growl, not even bark. But the next instant he was roaring in anger and lunging at my son's cat how had snuck in. That cat was hissing and going after one of my cats. He jumped up between them and downed at my command. I never would have expected that from a Golden. 


I guess what I'm saying is a well trained dog can be a deterrent and sometimes we can underestimate our own dogs. I've lived and traveled with a Sch3 GSD, she was awesome. But it was my Doberman I sent out after the poachers cutting my fence. The liability of sending the Sch GSD was scary, but my pet Doberman was just protecting her property. My sign on my property had a pic of a Doberman outline and said "I can get to the fence in 2.2 seconds, can you?"


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes, I was also wanting to take a Krav Maga course as well . I need to wait until I have the money, for one (just got a walking-distance job that I start training for tomorrow! planning on working there until I have the money to buy a scooter/motorcycle, and then I'll be working in Dallas), and I'm also trying to work on getting more into shape before I start a course. I've taken one free Krav Maga class before (a couple years ago), and I almost died just from the warm up, lol.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Tulip said:


> Yes, I was also wanting to take a Krav Maga course as well . I need to wait until I have the money, for one (just got a walking-distance job that I start training for tomorrow! planning on working there until I have the money to buy a scooter/motorcycle, and then I'll be working in Dallas), and I'm also trying to work on getting more into shape before I start a course. I've taken one free Krav Maga class before (a couple years ago), and I almost died just from the warm up, lol.


Mace or Tazer. If you don't want a firearm, those are your best alternatives.

Self-defense and martial arts classes are fine, but you need to be realistic about what they will and won't do for you. All those movies scenes where some small-framed female or even male hero beats the stuffing out of some big, hulking bad guy are utterly unrealistic. Yeah, fighting skills can help, but at a certain point, they won't do much against an aggressor with mass and speed, even if his form is horrible.

Having a working-line GSD is a great step as well, especially if it is well-trained; not necessarily in protection but obedience, as the appearance of a sharp GSD is enough to deter a lot of would-be aggressors...perception matters, and most bad guys, and gals, would much rather prefer to go after a soft target over a hard target.

So to compliment it all, always be aware of your surroundings, especially if you know that you are living in or going through a sketchy part of the city.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

This topic is always divissive, everyone has an idea of what PP is and is not. For me it is a dog you can rely on to deter and engage intruders as well as turn on and off as needed and have out in public. Genetics play a larger role in this type of dog then training. 
There are few dogs that truly impress me these days but this nasty little guy is one of them. Works out of prey and aggression in equal parts, genetically full hard grips, and appropriately suspicious / civil yet biddable and workable in public. This is the kind of dog you can do anything with PP, LE, sport, breeding. Training was only necessary to control and direct the aggression not create it. Obedience was done all with pressure and a bit of food. Dog loves the ball but unless you are doing sport its counterproductive with this kind of dog.

That being said most people these days cant handle this type of dog even with the training already done for them. 

This one might get me back from the dark side .

H'Argo von D'andico

Decided to give him a try at a basic carjacking scenario.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This topic is always divissive, everyone has an idea of what PP is and is not. For me it is a dog you can rely on to deter and engage intruders as well as turn on and off as needed and have out in public. Genetics play a larger role in this type of dog then training.
> There are few dogs that truly impress me these days but this nasty little guy is one of them. Works out of prey and aggression in equal parts, genetically full hard grips, and appropriately suspicious / civil yet biddable and workable in public. This is the kind of dog you can do anything with PP, LE, sport, breeding. Training was only necessary to control and direct the aggression not create it. Obedience was done all with pressure and a bit of food. Dog loves the ball but unless you are doing sport its counterproductive with this kind of dog.
> 
> That being said most people these days cant handle this type of dog even with the training already done for them.
> ...


Three questions because I'm trying to learn:
1. Why do you feel most people couldn't handle this dog?
2. Does he react differently without the sleeve?
3. Do you have more videos of him?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

He is very intense and requires firm handling to keep him honest, some people can do this with coaching many cannot. While he can be in public without issues he does not have the golden retriever temperment he is not the dog that wants strangers petting on him. Anyone walks into his house or yard that doesnt live there they will be bitten. 
Needless to say this type of dog needs an effective handler that not only handles him but one that doesnt put the dog into stupid situations where someone can get hurt.
Before anyone goes off half cocked about nerves and thresholds...the dog has been used as a demo dog in numerous group obedience classes, been in a music video and lives in a house with a three year old. However, his current handler / trainer knows what he is doing.

You saw me approach the dog without the sleeve what do you think? He did not get a warm up bite nor had he seen the scenario before.

I do, but this is not a forum for that video.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

who is the person saying good boy and aus to the dog?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

His handler.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He is very intense and requires firm handling to keep him honest, some people can do this with coaching many cannot. While he can be in public without issues he does not have the golden retriever temperment he is not the dog that wants strangers petting on him. Anyone walks into his house or yard that doesnt live there they will be bitten.
> Needless to say this type of dog needs an effective handler that not only handles him but one that doesnt put the dog into stupid situations where someone can get hurt.
> Before anyone goes off half cocked about nerves and thresholds...the dog has been used as a demo dog in numerous group obedience classes, been in a music video and lives in a house with a three year old. However, his current handler / trainer knows what he is doing.
> 
> ...




My eight year old is rather sharp. She is stable in public, and has been used for countless demos and such. We even use her when working with reactive dogs, because she won't react. However no one else can touch her. She could be laying down on a strangers feet and be fine, but if that stranger pet her, he would be bit. It takes constant awareness of our surroundings and solid handling to keep people from trying to pet her. 

Personally I prefer how my two younger dogs are. They are far from golden retrievers. They could care less about strangers. They are not out seeking attention. However if a stranger does come up and pets them, it's not an automatic bite. Instead they just give them the stink eye and walk away, or look at my wife or I like "make it stop". I have a lot more confidence in their response to take in public, crowds and every day life. Less chance of a bad bite and allows us to relax. They are every bit just as real.


Have you worked this dog on a hidden? Or something where he can really feel you underneath? Run the scenario where he can't see the sleeve first. Did hid handler alert him, or did he just light off on you? I'm not criticizing. Just curious. I've recently ran into some situations with dogs, where they look great and put on a show when they can bite something puffy. As soon as they feel the human in their mouth, they let go or start to shift so they have just material. You hear similar stories from K9 handlers. Their dogs first bite generally looks more like a scratch. To help combat this, I wear a thin suit, comp or semi comp, and give hidden bites on a small leather gauntlet like this. It hurts lol Leather Gauntlet - Reduce The Pinch!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

mycobraracr said:


> My eight year old is rather sharp. She is stable in public, and has been used for countless demos and such. We even use her when working with reactive dogs, because she won't react. However no one else can touch her. She could be laying down on a strangers feet and be fine, but if that stranger pet her, he would be bit. It takes constant awareness of our surroundings and solid handling to keep people from trying to pet her.
> 
> Personally I prefer how my two younger dogs are. They are far from golden retrievers. They could care less about strangers. They are not out seeking attention. However if a stranger does come up and pets them, it's not an automatic bite. Instead they just give them the stink eye and walk away, or look at my wife or I like "make it stop". I have a lot more confidence in their response to take in public, crowds and every day life. Less chance of a bad bite and allows us to relax. They are every bit just as real.
> 
> ...


This is an honest question to people talking about dogs who would bite if a stranger pets them.

Is that a dog with an acceptable temperament? Is it a dog who you would breed?

Should a "good" GSD bite a neutral person for petting them?

Where is the line between good suspicious and and dog that is just a liability....


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is an honest question to people talking about dogs who would bite if a stranger pets them.
> 
> Is that a dog with an acceptable temperament? Is it a dog who you would breed?
> 
> ...


Not every GSD is a lab. I have a dog that will not tolerate any stranger petting him, unless he decides it's ok. 

It is absolutely an acceptable temperament as long as the dog has the nerves and strong temperament to be stable enough to be around people with out becoming aggressive for no reason. 

Is this a dog that I would breed? Yes, if it also had the right temperament, strong nerves and high drives, work ethic, structure, conformation, and good hips and elbows. That would be a dog that that probably should be bred. 

*Where is the line between good suspicious and and dog that is just a liability*

Hopefully, that line is a leash and it is in the hands of a responsible, educated, good handler or owner. 

A GSD is a not a labroodle, collie, or Golden Retriever and shouldn't be bred to be one or handled like it is one. 

Dog ownership is a serious responsibility and if some one's dog doesn't like strangers messing with it's hair or grabbing it's ears....Well, don't let people pet the dog, be vigilant and train the dog to not be reactive unless told it's ok. It's pretty simple really.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the video that blitzkrieg provided showed a good dog being very obviously aggressed "played with" -- almost like a table exercise .

what would be interesting , when you are showing a PP at work , is to show the same dog in the truck with a very normal mind-your-own-business woman with baby carriage, jogger , total stranger being neutral passing by . A good PP would have been watchful , vigilant , but not reacting.

if the dog punches out in aggression to every situation then the dog is useless for PP.

discrimination and ability to take action without being stimulated in prey or fight . Zones of action as in the French Ring garde d objet are a good training exercise .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok interesting....

Do you guys remember that story on here awhile bacj where the kid ran up to the dog in its yard and the dog bit him. I thought I remembered possibly some talk of breeding that dog and maybe people saying it shouldn't be bred since it had bit the kid.

I may have that wrong....maybe I can dig it up and see what it really said and who said it.

I had a dog who didn't mind protecting himself if he thought someone was going to do something nasty to him, like a vet. I can understand this, he knows something painful might happen, he wants to protect himself, it makes sense. 

Biting a neutral person who pets....I am not sure how I feel about that. I guess it depends how the person is petting. TSA guy was super inappropriate with my female once many years ago. Walked striaght up to her, leaned right over her head, frisked her in every imaginable way....she just thought he was an idiot. I was too inexperienced with the whole thing to do any better advocating for her. But that is why they put a dog like her with me, because she was steady enough to make up for my lack at the time. 

I give my dogs permission to greet and if they choose to then I tell people they can pet and if my dog decides they are done with it for any reason I always make the person respect that. The boy does not enjoy greeting people like the girl does, but he will tolerate being petted in exchange for sniffing them which is interesting to him. He is more aloof than her. 

I guess I should hope that as he has always been allowed to quit interacting with people whenever he wants and I support him on it...I would hope that he would choose to disengage rather than show aggression because he is annoyed. Is that an unreasonable expectation....plus I have never and would never allow someone to pet him in an inappropriate or offensive way or pursue him if he had no interest


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Not every GSD is a lab. I have a dog that will not tolerate any stranger petting him, unless he decides it's ok.
> 
> It is absolutely an acceptable temperament as long as the dog has the nerves and strong temperament to be stable enough to be around people with out becoming aggressive for no reason.
> 
> ...


Way back when I first got Bud we were approached on a walk by a friendly young man. Bud tolerated the attention quietly, until the man stepped closer and reached for me. A low growl was enough to warn him off. 
The man went from neutral to a threat, in a young dogs mind, by closing in and raising his voice.
I was speaking to an older gentleman while out with Sabi after her retirement. He was admiring and Sabs was happy to soak up the attention. Until the man reached for her leash. Again a low growl, neutral person was now doing something wrong, threatening.
In both cases dogs were in control, ready. Two different dogs with different personalities.
Sabi normally accepted attention from strangers. They could not get between us, and they could not touch her leash. friendly pets and chatting, no problem.
Bud was not friendly, not fond of strangers, but would remain quiet and alert until they did something. 
Neither would have bitten as a first response, unless the threat was real and blatant.
Both had acceptable and desired temperaments in my opinion.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Way back when I first got Bud we were approached on a walk by a friendly young man. Bud tolerated the attention quietly, until the man stepped closer and reached for me. A low growl was enough to warn him off.
> The man went from neutral to a threat, in a young dogs mind, by closing in and raising his voice.
> I was speaking to an older gentleman while out with Sabi after her retirement. He was admiring and Sabs was happy to soak up the attention. Until the man reached for her leash. Again a low growl, neutral person was now doing something wrong, threatening.
> In both cases dogs were in control, ready. Two different dogs with different personalities.
> ...


Boy it's amazing how clueless some people can be!! I NEVER even try to touch a strange dog, preferring to stay at a safe distance no matter what breed!:surprise:


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the video that blitzkrieg provided showed a good dog being very obviously aggressed "played with" -- almost like a table exercise .
> 
> what would be interesting , when you are showing a PP at work , is to show the same dog in the truck with a very normal mind-your-own-business woman with baby carriage, jogger , total stranger being neutral passing by . A good PP would have been watchful , vigilant , but not reacting.
> 
> ...



Exactly! Car scenarios add stress just like a table. Because it's confined, it takes away the dogs flight option. The reason sports like PSA start with a car jacking scenario in their entry titles and then go into a jump out attack. To see if they can get in the dogs head. 

You nailed it again with the dog being able to turn on and off. Be stable and controlled. One reason I like SDA as a sport. You check in and out with a decoy. Will your dog be under control. One of my wife and mine favorite sayings. "What's the point of a protection dog if you can't have it with you?" 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is an honest question to people talking about dogs who would bite if a stranger pets them.
> 
> Is that a dog with an acceptable temperament? Is it a dog who you would breed?
> 
> ...



Yes that is acceptable temperament as long as it's coming from the correct state of mind. I.E. not fear based. Let's look at some of the lines of GSD. What were they bred for? Think eastern Europe. How where the dogs used? The standard says the dogs should be aloof. Not seeking attention from strangers. So why does my dog need to be pet by everyone? I don't want to hug every person I see. As long as the dog isn't outwardly aggressive. That's a bit different. My dogs just don't give a rip about what you're doing unless you invade our space. 

We take our dogs everywhere. Rarely leave the house without at least one. That means work, running errands, you name it. We have yet to have an accidental bite. As Jim said, it's all about being vigilant. Knowing your dog, and understanding situations. Our eight year old is sharp. So she didn't get to do some things like off leash hikes and some things like that. She also got us lots of dirty looks from people who didn't understand my dog doesn't want you touching it so back off. 

Here is a video from a couple years ago of my wife playing with our eight year old. Notice how she doesn't give a rip about anyone else around? Even the helpers. Now this is at a training day. Not one of her sessions. People were just standing around talking so my wife got her out to play. In more normal settings, she doesn't have as much eye focus, but the rest is pretty close to the same.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> My eight year old is rather sharp. She is stable in public, and has been used for countless demos and such. We even use her when working with reactive dogs, because she won't react. However no one else can touch her. She could be laying down on a strangers feet and be fine, but if that stranger pet her, he would be bit. It takes constant awareness of our surroundings and solid handling to keep people from trying to pet her.
> 
> Personally I prefer how my two younger dogs are. They are far from golden retrievers. They could care less about strangers. They are not out seeking attention. However if a stranger does come up and pets them, it's not an automatic bite. Instead they just give them the stink eye and walk away, or look at my wife or I like "make it stop". I have a lot more confidence in their response to take in public, crowds and every day life. Less chance of a bad bite and allows us to relax. They are every bit just as real.
> 
> ...


Oh he wont auto bite he just has a low tolerance for idiots that want to maul him and sadly there are to many idiots out there. So for this dog caution says no strangers petting him.

As already mentioned the dog is under control in public..that is not a concern. That includes baby carriages .

He will activate on a man passive with no equipment anywhere. 

I know what your talking about Jeremy but this isnt one of those dogs. When I first bought him he had maybe seen a few bites on an IPO sleeve. I threw the suit on first thing and went at him. No hesitation, full hard and confident. That was at 1.5 years old before he had a clue what a suit was.
This is the third dog I purchased from this blood line. Have his full brother here now and a half brother that I put on hidden sleeve before he was sold for security work and he is the best of the bunch.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Back to the original poster who has a child. I think for a family with children, that high threshold for not being reactive is extremely important. Families with children have children coming over. No matter how good your child is, you can't know what another child may do. My Sch3 was great with my children, then ages 3, 4, 13 and 14. But when others came over, she was put up. My Dobie could be out with no problem. I live very rural at the end of a short dead end road. When I wanted to go for a run I had to go past my neighbor's place who then had a pack of loose dogs. They would charge my Dobe and I, jumping up and snapping at her from all sides, including her face. I would tell her to leave it and she ignored them and when we got to the end of the road we would go on our run. I couldn't do that with my GSD. For her I had to get in the car and drive somewhere else. This is not at all GSD vs Dobe, I'm only talking about the ability to live with the chaos of kids and other situations when talking about a working breed with families. (I am NOT in any way an expert with working dogs.)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Exactly! Car scenarios add stress just like a table. Because it's confined, it takes away the dogs flight option. The reason sports like PSA start with a car jacking scenario in their entry titles and then go into a jump out attack. To see if they can get in the dogs head.
> 
> You nailed it again with the dog being able to turn on and off. Be stable and controlled. One reason I like SDA as a sport. You check in and out with a decoy. Will your dog be under control. One of my wife and mine favorite sayings. "What's the point of a protection dog if you can't have it with you?"
> 
> ...



This sounds like the IDEAL PP dog.

Not only that this sounds like the ideal LE dog .

The dog still needs to be social .


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Some people live in VERY bad neighborhoods and actually need these type's of dogs. Most people live in good areas without a murder, rape, break in for decades. I still talk to friends from when I lived in NY, they always ask me if I can get them dogs because they remember how my GSD would cause gangs to cross the street when they saw me approaching. I never tell them where to get these dogs because deep down I know they do not and will not know how to train and handle them. These dogs will end up in a shelter, and in NY the shelter policies is to neuter them and I'm totally against that. People really have no idea what it's like to raise a regular GSD let alone a working line. So I don't recommend people to get these dogs unless A. they actually need it and B. they have the time and experience to train one.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

The dog in the video knew it was bite time so the aggressive behavior was due to to the towel on the window the sleeve the known decoy and probably the truck that was used for the exercise. The dog knew whats was coming so was ramped up already for the session. Judging it on a training session for threshold or re activeness from the one video might not be accurate. With a PPD dog as mentioned you would never want this behavior in public, the dog new it was training time so...

The term "PPD" is thrown around loosely for dogs as there is no real guideline for the term. Some use it on dogs with little to no training but have barked and or act aggressive and bit a sleeve once. Employed dogs with a zillion hours of training have to share the same term. Clearly they are not and in most all cases could not be same dog, few could make it. In many cases they are trained to as high or a higher degree then some police dogs are.

To think that even a few can train a ppd is folly, most have trouble with staying off the couch and jumping on aunt Anna when she visits. A good SOLID bred family companion dog with some training help goes a long way as it should.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Seer said:


> The dog in the video knew it was bite time so the aggressive behavior was due to to the towel on the window the sleeve the known decoy and probably the truck that was used for the exercise. The dog knew whats was coming so was ramped up already for the session. Judging it on a training session for threshold or re activeness from the one video might not be accurate. With a PPD dog as mentioned you would never want this behavior in public, the dog new it was training time so...
> 
> The term "PPD" is thrown around loosely for dogs as there is no real guideline for the term. Some use it on dogs with little to no training but have barked and or act aggressive and bit a sleeve once. Employed dogs with a zillion hours of training have to share the same term. Clearly they are not and in most all cases could not be same dog, few could make it. In many cases they are trained to as high or a higher degree then some police dogs are.
> 
> To think that even a few can train a ppd is folly, most have trouble with staying off the couch and jumping on aunt Anna when she visits. A good SOLID bred family companion dog with some training help goes a long way as it should.


Actually he never saw the towel, truck, never sat in the front seat or did that exercise before..ever. That was his first kick at the can which was kind of my point . Genetics.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Actually he never saw the towel, truck, never sat in the front seat or did that exercise before..ever. That was his first kick at the can which was kind of my point . Genetics.


So if I was walking and went to cross the street around this truck he would go off on me...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Actually he never saw the towel, truck, never sat in the front seat or did that exercise before..ever. That was his first kick at the can which was kind of my point . Genetics.


what?

I am not disparaging the dog . I am questioning the presentation . Go to any IPO trial and pass the vehicles and there will be a ruckus of noise and similar action. 
Saw the very same attention from a bichon-type mix that would hit his teeth on the windows as people passed by to enter the post office building . 

Deb asked "So if I was walking and went to cross the street around this truck he would go off on me.." 

Yes , exactly . That is why I said "what would be interesting , when you are showing a PP at work , is to show the same dog in the truck with a very normal mind-your-own-business woman with baby carriage, jogger , total stranger being neutral passing by . A good PP would have been watchful , vigilant , but not reacting."

An answer came back saying that the dog is fine with baby carriages. 

Baby carriages are not the concern. The PERSON going about their day to day normal business should not cause the dog to react . There is no threat .

It is not the dog defending himself or tolerating idiots.

Personal protection is about the safe guarding of the person the dog is assigned to. 

So in the hotel the wait staff and housekeepers should be able to come and go without suddenly having a dog attached to their face (owner present).
In the office the dog should be nearby keeping an eye on things.
The dog is safe to be close to - as in having a conversation with the owner -- but you do not touch the owner . You do not initiate contact --- but the dog has to be okay if the owner extends the hand for the hand shake .

dog must discriminate. 

French Ring campagne and KNPV are good sports to prepare for situational decision making training.

the true test for PP would have been dog in truck .
owner approaching truck.
someone coming out and starting to be confrontational with owner -- then giving owner a shoulder shove ---- then watch what the dog's actions would be - and in this scenario the dog is never aggressed -- only the owner


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

When I first began taking Red to dog shows with me I warned friends as they come up to let me introduce them first as they would otherwise just walk up and hug me. Once introduced to Red we could hug or whatever whenever. She acted like any other shepherd at a dog show, so no one had any idea she was a Sch3. The only time she went off was one night when I was walking her before bed and it was very dark. The guy who was walking around the RVs to get the parking fees raised his cane and yelled to get my attention. Wrong move, and while he meant no harm, she was correct in her reaction to his actions. We then calmly walked to my RV and I paid him. He walked past my RV multiple times after that the next day getting people who came in late or the next morning. She watched him but did not react again to him.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Actually he never saw the towel, truck, never sat in the front seat or did that exercise before..ever. That was his first kick at the can which was kind of my point . Genetics.


The sleeve alone is enough for the dog to understand whats coming even out of sight he/she should have been able to smell it in the area. 

I'm all about genetics, I'm with you there. Discernment is huge though. Most people approaching your window are asking for directions for that cool donut shop your dog just forced them to eliminate in their shorts.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Deb said:


> So if I was walking and went to cross the street around this truck he would go off on me...


Is that a question or a statement.."what you should say is I dont know what he would do. What would he do?" Lol


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Im not testing the dog for anything. He has already been tested . Pedigree and brief video of the dog was shared as well as my opinion of him. Its rare to find one that has true aptitude for real work, PP or top sport. For me this is the ideal PP dog, I would go anywhere with and not be worried. I like to give good genetics and good dogs a shout out, there are few enough of those. 

As has already been said dog was used in a music video, been to home depot, walked through crowds, fairs, been used as a demo dog in group obedience classes there is no lack of discernability. 

The dog wont tolerate stupid people getting in his grill. Like I said, this type of dog will be a problem for an inept handler as are many exceptional dogs.

KNPV, RING, IPO are all sports. I have seen good and bad dogs in all three, participation in any of them doesnt mean much one way or the other.
The dog can pass the temperment test and control himself around the decoy if he participates in any of these sports. You can make this with any half decent dog.

A good GSD isnt a lab. People claim to understand this then complain when a dog doesnt show the temperment of a labradoodle. I like a dog with suspicion that isnt fear based, forward aggression, drive and confidence. He reminds me a lot of Hunter's dog as a matter of fact who I really liked in the work and at home.

Yes many people are happy with a PP dog that requires significant threat displays to show aggression and or engage, but for me this is the ideal dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I will add to the comments about how a dog should react to a neutral person walking by your vehicle and not in training as the video showed. Many dogs of any breed, age or temperament react aggressively, or at least bark and growl when a stranger approaches "_their_" vehicle. The same way most dogs will bark and growl and make a fuss when behind a chain link fence and a stranger walks by. It is common, normal and natural for a dog to "defend it's territory." My mothers Bichon will bark, growl and make a fuss if you approach her car. This is simply territorial aggression. It doesn't mean that all of these dogs are PPD's, will bite for real or even stand their ground once the door or gate opens. 

Almost all dogs will bark at the mailman delivering the mail, few will bite the mail man if the door suddenly opens and they get loose. Many GSD's will bite the mail man in the ass if he is walking away. The majority of those dogs will stop instantly if the mail man simply turns around and faces the dog. 

There are those GSD's with good character, temperament and genetics that will bring the fight and are very serious in guarding their car or defending their territory. 

I leave my Police car running my entire shift, it is never turned off and I leave my cage open or the cage / K-9 insert door at least cracked. People do stupid things; and if someone thought it might be a good idea to hop into my car and drive away they would have a big surprise. It's one heck of an anti theft device, except for the copious amounts of hair. 

I would be very concerned with a LE dog or a so called "PPD" that didn't alert or explode to people coming up to my car. I count on Boomer to watch my back while I am parked doing paperwork or reading a report on my computer. I leave his windows down so he can alert me to anyone approaching my vehicle. He is praised for responding to people and discouraged from barking at dogs, cats or other animals. In reality a Police car can be a coffin on wheels, it is very dangerous to be caught off guard in a Police car. I count on those super senses that Boomer has to be my early warning system. If he didn't bark at the approach of a stranger, explode when they were close or engage if they tried to get into my car, we'd have some training to work on. I have trained other handlers dogs to do this who didn't do it naturally. IMHO, it is normal and natural for most dogs to bark when a stranger approaches their car and absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Barking in the car at a neutral person should not be confused with a dog "going off" while a neutral person walks by when a dog is on a leash. Barking and going crazy while the dog is on a leash for no reason tells me the dog is out of control, lacks obedience and may have nerve or temperament issues. Completely different from guarding their vehicle.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm with Jim and Blitzkreigh on this one. With vehicle situation I expect dog to act differently when in vehicle alone and when I am in vehicle. First, in this day and age I'm not going to leave dog in car with his ability to get out on his own,( I'm talking non LE dog) , I may leave window cracked but not enough for dog to get out. In this scenario, if I am not present, I would expect him to act the same way he would if he was in my house alone and I'm not present. Nobody has right to cross threshold of my house unless I say it's alright. He is enclosed, so a person would have to disregard his alert and then continue inside the space of my vehicle....in that case all bets are off. I have never seen a baby jump out of baby carriage and squeeze through a cracked window and the person pushing the carriage has no reason to reach towards the car......soooo if the dog stares silent and alert, or if dog sounds off because they perceive person is too close....it's fine with me.
Back in the day when I would leave the window completely down, I had dogs that would sit in seat and watch unless you tried to touch vehicle when I'm not there...but today's society has necessitated not allowing my dog to have that freedom while I'm not present.
If I'm in car, I expect my dog to defuse when I say it's " ok".


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

My computer for some reason won't let me make multiple quotes, only the last thing posted, for whatever reason.






Blitzkrieg1, it was a statement or a question. The window was all the way open and you were not even that close to the truck. Had he gone off when a stranger came right up to the window I would expect him to be defensive if that's what he has been trained to be. I agree with genetics and obviously from what you've written he has a very sound temperament. For me though, the average neutral person just walking past at ten or more feet away shouldn't feel threatened by him. If they are not engaging him or bothering the truck, I feel he should be alert and watchful unless something changes.
Slamdunk, I'd expect a police dog to be totally different with regards to the police car. He's warning that vehicle is not to be approached. Yes, many dogs do this, but this is where, to me, genetics come in, the why are they doing it? Most sound dogs aren't going to unless trained to do it, otherwise they'll be vigilant and react only if there is a need. To me, this is a safer dog. It's the dog I want and have been blessed to have had with the exception of one.
I'm enjoying this discussion, it's been very educational.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I see it slightly differently for a civilian vs. LEO. I am happy if my dogs bark when someone approaches my car, with me in it. But I don't want them pounding against the windows or going crazy in a grocery store parking lot at everyone walking by, for example. I don't want them lighting up at the voice of the border patrol officer. Actually, a border patrol officer with a sense of humor, after asking if I was a citizen said, "ah, I can see you've got a German in there, too". Dog was calm and quiet at that time. I cross the border fairly often, I don't want my dogs causing an issue. 

So there are some instances- as a civilian- where I want my dogs to chill in the car when told. Doesn't mean they wouldn't go crazy if I started to get very worried because a stranger was coming into or at the car, but if I tell them to chill in certain scenarios, they need to chill. 

I also don't want them leaping out of the car without permission, really EVER. Car jackings are non-existent where I live. I need my dogs to defend me, not attack. So they can go crazy on some stranger who tries to get in my car but I do not want them leaping out of the car without my OK. If I go to the ATM at night, for example, I bring a dog in with me. And that dog needs also to chill unless I am actually attacked because other people come to use the ATM, too, and most of them are no threat at all. 

It can be a tricky business to have a dog that will protect, but not go after a non-threatening person. I would never hurt someone except in self-defense. And I would make sure I verbally warned them off, on video if possible, and tried to retreat, before allowing my dog to defend me. It can be real tricky to prove your dog was protecting his owner and you were in fear for you life because the dog owner is almost always "wrong" in dog bite scenarios. So I am very careful.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*Most sound dogs aren't going to unless trained to do it, otherwise they'll be vigilant and react only if there is a need. To me, this is a safer dog. *

Most dogs do this, it is simply territorial aggression and guarding. I don't think this makes a dog less safe and a dog that doesn't do it safer. It really depends on the dog.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> *Most sound dogs aren't going to unless trained to do it, otherwise they'll be vigilant and react only if there is a need. To me, this is a safer dog. *
> 
> Most dogs do this, it is simply territorial aggression and guarding. I don't think this makes a dog less safe and a dog that doesn't do it safer. It really depends on the dog.



It does depend on the dog. But many dogs with territorial aggression and guarding are also often the ones who end up in biting scenarios. I think when you look at dog bite statistics the dogs bit someone while guarding something or being territorial. I'm not talking working dogs, just dogs more pet dogs, in general. That, to me, makes that kind of dog unsafe.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Weak nerved, insecure or dogs with poor temperaments dogs are going to be quicker to bite. That is where the bulk of dog bite statistics come from.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My dog does not like anyone approaching the car. He will defend it and 'go off' at anyone that approaches. He's also perfectly safe to walk even in narrow corridors with other people. 

Territorial aggression is what I want from my GSD. I trust him to let me know if someone is approaching (I'm 99 percent of the time alone when out with him).

(just a pet dog owner's perspective)


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You've had me going to do some research between cooking dinner, Jim. I couldn't actually find any absolute studies. I think you are completely correct. 


There appears to be more studies on children being bitten.
Behavioral assessment of child-directed canine aggression. - PubMed - NCBI
The conclusion appears to combine what both of us said - Most children were bitten by dogs with no history of biting children. There is a high rate of behavioral abnormalities (aggression and anxiety) in this canine population.
So perhaps what I was saying also has a little truth.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Deb said:


> You've had me going to do some research between cooking dinner, Jim. I couldn't actually find any absolute studies. I think you are completely correct.
> 
> 
> There appears to be more studies on children being bitten.
> ...


Oh, I wasn't completely disagreeing with you, just adding my opinion. 

I read that study and was interesting. As I thought, dogs with issues and lack of control were the bulk of the problem - 77% of the bites. Weak dogs will bite if provoked or they see an easy target. Other dogs lacking rules and discipline will also bite. As that study mentioned, resource guarding was an issue as well as territorial aggression. I can say that the bulk of the dogs wouldn't bite me if I came on their property. Simply because I am not afraid of dogs and wouldn't turn my back on them. I'm sure a fair portion of the bites on children were kids that were running away or trying to take something away form the dog. That doesn't require a dog with a good temperament. 

Very good study, thanks for posting that.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You're welcome and you're absolutely correct. I read several articles and my overall take was kids trying to take things away and some kids being too rough were the ones most bitten. It really angers me to see posts from parents of their kids mauling the family dog and bragging on what a great dog they have. They do have a great dog, but when the dog has finally had enough and says stop, it's no longer that great dog. And the blame is put on the dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think it's impossible to disseminate a dog from a short video.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

As already mentioned by Jim and Cliff a dog that alerts in the truck can be a good thing. I happen to like it and so do most of my customers so if a dog offers that behaviour naturally I leave it be unless specifically asked to remove it. In the end it means absolutely nothing about the dog. It's easy to teach a dog to be quiet when told or make it so he never barks at all in the truck. Its just a matter of personal needs/taste.

Take 99% of those nasty car barking dogs your all talking about and run the scenario I just did..come at the car fast and frontal. Dont ease them into it just go at it cold..let me know how it goes.

Ironically my psycho Mal stays very quiet in the car..but every shepherd I have ever owned loved to bark in the truck. If I wanted and or needed I could make the Mal nasty in the truck too. 

The video I posted wasnt about "look at the nasty dog in the car". If you know what to look for, you see the power in his guarding, the quality of the grip, the transition from the out back to the guarding. When I watch that video I see a dog with forward aggression and more importantly the confidence, commitment and clarity he shows while in that state.

Like I said earlier its genetic, this dog has maybe done bitework with us 5 times and he came to us green as grass. Never bothered with the foundation or reward based work we do with an IPO dog, just trained him the old fashioned way. 

I still see a ton of people on here get confused between the quality of the training and the quality of the dog. I would take this guy over my Mal if I had to pick only one dog to protect my life. My mal who has nice training and pretty secondary obedience in phase C, always a crowd pleaser with his speed, intensity and aggression. 

There is the dog and there is the training,while one can influence the other dont get the two confused.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I happen to live in a big city, with big city problems

If my dog lights up like a Christmas tree at someone approaching my car I'm ok with it. As Blitz said it's easy enough to shut them up. I also happen to live in a crappy neighborhood, so I'm not always super quick to shut Shadow up for displays of territorial aggression, like going off on the undesirables behind the garage, or biting the window at the punk trying my front door at 1am. 
Even my inappropriate, weak nerved dog has her uses.

Every patrol dog I worked with went bananas at people approaching the truck, at least all the GSD's. It wasn't a trained or conditioned behavior, just what they do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

None of my GSDs bark or react to people moving toward, around, or past my vehicle. 

They will light up if somebody stops to bother or fuss with the them, us or the vehicle.

All of the above was untrained behavior.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> None of my GSDs bark or react to people moving toward, around, or past my vehicle.
> 
> They will light up if somebody stops to bother or fuss with the them, us or the vehicle.
> 
> All of the above was untrained behavior.


Mine are the same, lying in wait, lol.

I hate having to walk by rides and have dogs go off for no reason, if they are not being approached or their personal space threatened, they should just chill. This is in the context of training(clubs). Most often, parking is fairly tight and we all have to walk past vehicles to get to our own. 
All that low threshold reactivity show does not impress or intimidate me, it annoys me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> Mine are the same, lying in wait, lol.
> 
> I hate having to walk by rides and have dogs go off for no reason, if they are not being approached or their personal space threatened, they should just chill. This is in the context of training(clubs). Most often, parking is fairly tight and we all have to walk past vehicles to get to our own.
> All that low threshold reactivity show does not impress or intimidate me, it annoys me.


The dogs ignoring people that are just passing by also saves a lot of damage to your vehicle.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The dogs ignoring people that are just passing by also saves a lot of damage to your vehicle.


I have seen dogs break out of crates at training because they are so reactive. One was a rottie that was very aggressive and the owner was quick to get him contained. NOW that dog was intimidating because of his reputation!
I have to laugh when people do bring dogs to training and don't crate them, but have them loose in their ride, I can't imagine the interior damage going on.
One of my friends has his dogs loose in his jeep, and they are very chill, never do they react when people are around, yet they are beasts on the field.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> I have seen dogs break out of crates at training because they are so reactive. One was a rottie that was very aggressive and the owner was quick to get him contained. NOW that dog was intimidating because of his reputation!
> I have to laugh when people do bring dogs to training and don't crate them, but have them loose in their ride, I can't imagine the interior damage going on.
> One of my friends has his dogs loose in his jeep, and they are very chill, never do they react when people are around, yet they are beasts on the field.


That is kind of like mine. They are very chill, but give them a reason and look out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

blitzkrieg , no one , myself included , said one negative word about the dog . In fact he looks solid. I like him.

The demo though had little to do with Personal protection.

How many dogs taking care of a decoy will refocus if someone creeps up behind and gives the handler a tap with the leather baton?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

forum member Nigel asks a good question in a thread which he started and that has to do with the use of force and k9's.

he is asking about dogs as law enforcement partners.

here we are discussing personal protection which is a whole other can of beans.

personal protection does not allow the client/owner to deploy the dog on any person that he thinks is an idiot or to teach him a lesson . The law has built in limitations to use of force . 

no one would expect a PP dog to experience the exposure to legitimate justifiable situations which would necessitate a bite or even action . The primary function is to alert and go between acting as a deterent .

does this mean that a lessor dog should be put into PP - absolutely not . The selection process has to be considerate of the fact that this dog will have high exposure to members of the public and needs to act appropriately at all times .

protective does not mean hostile.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a guard dog will protect property , vehicle / building - 

a personal protection dog protects the person , stays with the person --- does not need to pursue which leaves the person vulnerable if there is a second threat not yet in play .

training is pretty sophisticated


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

carmspack said:


> *personal protection does not allow the client/owner to deploy the dog on any person that he thinks is an idiot or to teach him a lesson . The law has built in limitations to use of force *.


I agree 100% with that statement, but to be fair, that applies to law enforcement K9 teams as well. A cop can't employ his dog on a suspect just because he feels like it; there has to be some inherent reason and legal justification for such action.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dalko43 said:


> I agree 100% with that statement, but to be fair, that applies to law enforcement K9 teams as well. A cop can't employ his dog on a suspect just because he feels like it; there has to be some inherent reason and legal justification for such action.


That goes for any use of force, not just a K-9. There are many SCOTUS decisions and case law pertaining to the use of force.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes, this is true.

there is a k9 officer under investigation - suspended -- because he let his dog have a bit of fun , after the man had been under control and arrested .

apparently man was on ground , cuffed , no resistance.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

carmspack said:


> yes, this is true.
> 
> there is a k9 officer under investigation - suspended -- because he let his dog have a bit of fun , after the man had been under control and arrested .
> 
> apparently man was on ground , cuffed , no resistance.


Link for the news story?


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