# Bloodlines on actual Working Police K-9's



## gilariversun

What bloodlines do you normally see on working police K-9's? I know this is a big question since - what is normal? However realistically I would think that there would be certain things one might notice time and again. For example:

1) Where do most of the police K-'s trace back to? West German working lines? DDR dogs? Czech dogs? Belgian? Etc....

2) What specific animals do you tend to see over and over? Asko Lutter? Troll Nachbarschaft? Grim Pohrinicini Straze? etc?


----------



## GSDElsa

I don't really think there is much consistency in this considering the wide variety of dogs I've seen in PD's.

Obviously there are certain lines or dogs that I'm sure people think are better fits for the job, but that opinion can vary widely.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

There is no consistency. Police K9s can be Czech, German working, German show, Dutch, European no-papers, mali-GSDx, or American backyard bred or well-bred American working lines. It just depends one where they got their dog from and where their broker picked up their K9 prospects.


----------



## pets4life

yes it is the individual dogs known for it i think u have to talk to people who are police canine trainers and breeders who produce for k9 units and personal protection 

a lot of these dogs come from certain shutzund lines it seems but not just any lines they have to be the right one find someone u trust there are smart people on these boards that can help u 

i have a leerburg protection video for fun to see i always thought czech dogs were the k9s but oh boy after watching some of those west german dogs can really kick ass


----------



## firfly

Alot of German imports are used in police work they arent cheap and most and do almost every one is KV. Temperment is of the most importance you will almost never see a show dog or its lines used in police work as drive is the second most important, and as far as any dog off the street please. Most people do not want a true working GSD as they tend to be the more dominant, independent, with extreemly high drive and require a handler with dedication, and understanding of GSD behavior, they must be taught respect from an early age and most people just dont have the time or patients to give them the work or exercise needed. You will find American breeders which breed actual German line GSDs for this sole purpose. If you want a good working dog do not look for a show dog, and talk to Schutzhund clubs, and local police departments.


----------



## Rerun

SG Stormfronts Brawnson - German shepherd dog


----------



## firfly

Rerun said:


> SG Stormfronts Brawnson - German shepherd dog


 Nice, and enough said not just any dog off the street.


----------



## holland

I heard somewhere have no idea if it is true that New York state doesn't buy their dogs-they go to the shelters or get donations. But depending on what the task is dogs from the shelters could be used


----------



## gagsd

I think there a few Brawnson sons doing police work now.

I had a son of Grim z Pohraninci straze who was a retired dual purpose K9. Active, stable and willing to work at 12 years old.
I also have seen a very nice W German Showline, son of Fedor vom Batu on a department.

Several of the smaller departments in my area seem to have whatever they can find... from shelters or local breeders. I have never seen the dogs work so cannot speak to that.


----------



## ladylaw203

Most of theGerman Shepherd police service dogs are imported European working lines. American show lines are very rarely used. West German high dogs are used, West German working lines, Czech etc
A large portion of police service dogs are imported Mals and Dutchies


----------



## ladylaw203

forgot to mention there are working line breeders here in the US,however, not in the volume that the police and military need and most folks just cannot keep their litters until they are old enough to test. Most agencies want an adult dog ready to train,hips and elbows done etc


----------



## DFrost

I have yet to look at the pedigree or ancestry of any dog I've purchased for PSD work. They are individually tested, each given their own physical to include xrays. I've always said; I don't buy a dog because of where it came from; I buy it based on what it can do for me. 

dFrost


----------



## GSDElsa

holland said:


> I heard somewhere have no idea if it is true that New York state doesn't buy their dogs-they go to the shelters or get donations. But depending on what the task is dogs from the shelters could be used


Yes, that's true. I'm sure they buy some dogs, but they do get at least some from rescues. They ahve gotten quite a few from CNY GSD Rescue.


----------



## psdontario

I can provide many pedigrees of dogs placed from the North American (Canadian) breeder that I deal with (I raise puppies for service applications). First I will provide pedigrees for the dogs that I have raised and placed into service:

Carmspack Silva - German shepherd dog
Carmspack Stark - German shepherd dog
Carmspack Gore - German shepherd dog
Carmspack Agro - German shepherd dog

3 of the 4 above are police service, however the first is an explosives detection dog for a private firm.
The following are dogs that have also come from the same breeding program (Carmspack German Shepherds):

Carmspack Mirko (photo is incorrect): Carmspack Mirko - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Keno-(Grando Mecklenburger Buffel x Yeulett's Tetley) -- his sister is Razor (narc cert) 

Carmspack Rkiv (rcmp - oklahoma max prisons) and brother Radja (to Connecticut): Carmspack Skova - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Synder (and brother "Doc")- Maricopa sheriffs:carmspack leroy - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Lokhan (rcmp):
Carmspack Lokhan - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Marek and Boomer (two brothers, but link is sisters pedigree, Anouscha):
Carmspack Anouscha - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Blitz - max prisons Carmspack Blitz - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Henry Goldrush rcmp cert SAR sister to Kimarli whose pedigree is here:
Carmspack Kimarli - German shepherd dog

two brothers Carmspack Troy and Floyd (brothers to dog in pedigree below) Mating test - German shepherd dog

Carmspack Cubby (RCMP certified): Carmspack Cubby - German shepherd dog

There are many more from this breeding program, (emphasis on breeding, not importing). This breeder is in Ontario, Canada and has been breeding dogs for service for many years now... consistently.

Here is the pedigree of Carmspack Sloan (and brother Gage) who I am currently raising for service that will be ready to go in about 8 months or so:

Carmspack Sloan - German shepherd dog

That should give you enough pedigrees to look at for a little while 
Carmspack (Carmen) is a member in this list as well, you can contact her with any questions.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## psdontario

Renee, I totally understand the issue breeders have with holding on to dogs, especially if they are not confident that the dog has what it takes or they cannot provide the dogs with an adequate foundation for future work. This could mean spending upwards of a year or more on a dog that may not make it or, best case scenario, the dog makes it but the payoff (monetary compensation and recognition) is miniscule. Personally, I enjoy the journey as much as the destination, so raising pups for work is internally reinforcing and I am motivated to work with them... but each persons motivations are different as we all know.

Dfrost, you said:

"I have yet to look at the pedigree or ancestry of any dog I've purchased for PSD work. They are individually tested, each given their own physical to include xrays. I've always said; I don't buy a dog because of where it came from; I buy it based on what it can do for me."

Excellent. 
You should not be swayed by pedigree in the position you are in. You are determining the ability/suitability of an end-user dog for a specific purpose. They need to meet your criteria and your evaluation should not be biased... however, for those people who are breeding these dogs, it is important that they know what you are looking for so that they can breed appropriate combinations to (more likely) produce what you will be looking for in the end. It is just as important for the people, like myself, who raise the pups, to know what those criteria are so that we can provide the puppy with an appropriate foundation and/or remove dogs from a program that we feel will not meet those standards. You having the skill to choose a dog based on criteria is important, but so are the choices that breeders and "raisers" make on the way.


----------



## ladylaw203

psdontario said:


> Excellent.
> You should not be swayed by pedigree in the position you are in. You are determining the ability/suitability of an end-user dog for a specific purpose. They need to meet your criteria and your evaluation should not be biased... however, for those people who are breeding these dogs, it is important that they know what you are looking for so that they can breed appropriate combinations to (more likely) produce what you will be looking for in the end. It is just as important for the people, like myself, who raise the pups, to know what those criteria are so that we can provide the puppy with an appropriate foundation and/or remove dogs from a program that we feel will not meet those standards. You having the skill to choose a dog based on criteria is important, but so are the choices that breeders and "raisers" make on the way.


 
I dont train paper either. I was commenting on the post because I see a lot of dogs certifying for nndda, seminars,vendors etc. We need insatiable retrieve/hunt drive rock solid nerves, good hips and elbows. 
We deal with adults because pups are somewhat of a crap shoot and most vendors,agencies want a dog that is old enough to be tested and xrayed.


----------



## psdontario

ladylaw203 said:


> I dont train paper either. I was commenting on the post because I see a lot of dogs certifying for nndda, seminars,vendors etc. We need insatiable retrieve/hunt drive rock solid nerves, good hips and elbows.
> We deal with adults because pups are somewhat of a crap shoot and most vendors,agencies want a dog that is old enough to be tested and xrayed.


Indeed.
If it is truly a "crapshoot" when it comes to breeding and raising puppies for service, I am sure that when you see a breeding program producing dogs that, time-and-time again, meet criteria and are put to work and have long successful careers, you and others in your field take notice? 

It makes sense that you are only dealing with adults as you are an end user, just as I mentioned to DFrost. What happens before that point is really not of importance to you, but it is to the breeders and the people that raise the puppies.

You don't train to paper.... I don't paper-train 

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## DFrost

psdontario said:


> Indeed.
> 
> It makes sense that you are only dealing with adults as you are an end user, just as I mentioned to DFrost. What happens before that point is really not of importance to you, but it is to the breeders and the people that raise the puppies.
> 
> You don't train to paper.... I don't paper-train
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


I agree with you. It is important to the breeder. Speaking for myself, as you put it, I'm an end user, not a breeder. People sometimes look at me wierd when I say; Puppies bore me. I guess, over the years, it's become an occupational hazard to feel that way, ha ha. 

DFrost


----------



## psdontario

DFrost said:


> Puppies bore me.
> DFrost


That is truly a shame, LOL.


----------



## K9SHOUSE

holland said:


> I heard somewhere have no idea if it is true that New York state doesn't buy their dogs-they go to the shelters or get donations. But depending on what the task is dogs from the shelters could be used


 
They do all of the above and also buy from breeders within and outside the state. Depends on the specific K9 needed. Search and rescue organizations (state sponsored and private or nonprofits) also pull from shelters and rescues.

Kelly


----------



## rtpva

*New Member Here*

Have followed similar threads on other sites and always find it curious to read the responses...I for one do not have the answer but have great respect for those who have provided thoughtful, forthright views. My current GSD is an adoption from the VGSR (VA German Shepherd Rescue). In researching the paperwork that came with him, I was able to dtermine his breeder, pedigree, and finally with some digging his working past. He was retired from 3 years as a working police dog in a southeastern VA city, due to food & skin allergies. He was part of a resurrected K-9 program for the department & was selected locally in VA from a breeder of High Line West German dogs...bred primarily as herding farm dogs...oddly enough, he also has a small cross with American-Canadian champion show lines. But as someone here stated and his breeder told me, none of this mattered really...he was selected based on the selection testing for drive & temperament. My last GSD was from an American breeder of West German working bloodlines...Leerburg in Wisconsin. Most who saw him thought he was a Czech/Slovak import due to the sable coloring and trim, muscular build...great dog but much sharper than this dog, though my retired High Line boy has a stronger bite and more balanced social skills. Any way, both could do the job, but the more unlikely bred dog actually "did" the job.
Thanks much.


----------



## carmspack

the leerburg dog might have had a lot of Sagus and Greif , deliberately built for short fuse and sharpness . I'm thinking Natan and Otis two stud dogs that he used and which he would unite through male and female offspring .
I've looked at pup pedigrees many times on the leerburg site , just to see .


----------



## rtpva

*Correct you are...*



carmspack said:


> the leerburg dog might have had a lot of Sagus and Greif , deliberately built for short fuse and sharpness . I'm thinking Natan and Otis two stud dogs that he used and which he would unite through male and female offspring .
> I've looked at pup pedigrees many times on the leerburg site , just to see .


He was an Otis-Hanna (Jenna vom Leerburg) son...his full sister Xanta has produced several generations of hard working dogs from what I can tell. To be honest, I was unprepared at the time for the level of prey drive and sharpness that he displayed...he was a young adult that had been returned due to a minor health problem that required neutering...nonetheless, I learned a ton, worked with a trainer, and he became the most affectionate dog I have ever owned...loved people outside of the house in the daytime...at night he was like a sentry on patrol...I would have walked through any ghetto with him and feared little. But he had to be crated around people in our house. My current shepherd shares some of the same working lines but many generations back...he is also out of Valet Busecker Schloss. I might add that Trooper, the Leerburg dog was a natural athlete...could scale a 6 foot privacy fence in the hunt for a opussum...that was a very interesting night! In terms of protection & defense, my current High Line dog can go from calm to alert in no time flat...his training is dormant and his overall drive has been sapped by heartworms and steroid treatment not mention neutering, but I have no doubt that he still has the right stuff to protect his handler...sad that a dog who worked the streets for 3 years as a K-9 ended up passed from person to person after he was retired...he has found his forever home...has a view of the golf course, and is loving life now...but he still gets those far away eyes sometimes...wondering why he isn't at work I imagine...if I start the SUV he goes absolutely nuts...could live in the car...thanks for the reply and look forward to learning more.
RTP in VA


----------



## phgsd

I had a dog with me for a while last year - he was Leerburg bred but not from Leerburg, a grandson of Xanta. A former friend of mine had him, got into trouble, asked if I could "watch" the dog for her for 2 weeks, and then disappeared. He was about 3 years old at the time - definitely sharp and not social to strangers, although otherwise he was a pretty nice dog. I found him a nice home as a PPD dog and they were really happy with him.


----------



## rtpva

Thanks for the reply...you have three fine looking dogs there...my current gsd shares the Kirschental line...my last the Zum Lahntal & Busecker Schloss lines...here is the last pic of Trooper (Xirus vom Leerburg) before cancer took him in 2008...he was 11 here....still miss him.
TomP


----------



## wolfstraum

Nessel v h Antverpa is a common demoninator....Mike Diehl's K9 Kutter has Nessel, my Csabre's grandfather was a K9 and was a Nessel son, and many of HIS sons have been K9s....If I had gotten a litter this winter from her, a few were earmarked for police officers.....

Lee


----------



## rtpva

*Another question related to Country of Origin*



wolfstraum said:


> Nessel v h Antverpa is a common demoninator....Mike Diehl's K9 Kutter has Nessel, my Csabre's grandfather was a K9 and was a Nessel son, and many of HIS sons have been K9s....If I had gotten a litter this winter from her, a few were earmarked for police officers.....
> 
> Lee


Fine looking dogs ther...enjoyed looking thru the bloodlines...I come from a family of genealogists so this is interesting stuff to me...but as others here have opined, it is really just a roadmap and the destination is what is important...the individual puppy.

Here's a related question for the working dog experts here: It seems that the vast majority of working GSD K-9's in the US now originate in the Czech Republic & Slovakia...I am familiar with the origins of these GSD's and have seen many in person...my last GSD was often mistaken for a Czech dog due to the dark brown sable coat and lean muscular build. Question is this...are there still departments out there who import from Germany or Holland (GSD's) or are these dogs more prevalent in Europe, Australia, and the UK...last question related to Europe and Australia...I notice that many K-9 photos from Europe show GSD's sporting the classic black & red coat of West German High line dogs...are there High Line kennels left in Germany who regularly produce working K-9's? I would also have to assume that any GSD imported from Germany is going to cost quite a bit more than those from Czech Rep/Slovakia.
Thanks for any input.
PS...My retired PPD is going to Advanced Off-Leash training next week...the trainer is also a Tracking & Narcotics Detection trainer...hopefully he will remember some of his past life skills.


----------



## ladylaw203

rtpva said:


> Here's a related question for the working dog experts here: It seems that the vast majority of working GSD K-9's in the US now originate in the Czech Republic & Slovakia....


By sheer volume there are more high line dogs working. Trust me, the dogs from Slovakia are not necessarily cheaper. depends on what one is purchasing. 

most departments purchase dogs from vendors who import from overseas. Just not enough adult dogs in the US for us in the volume that we purchase
Below is my recent import from Slovakia Karo Skocicka Samota ZVV1 ZM ZOP ZPU FPR ZZZ ZZP ZM Tart, IRO international certified Search and Rescue dog
I have several others from there. I do like the working ability


----------



## ladylaw203

Karo overseas during the IRO titling process. I finally figured out how to do photos....


----------



## carmspack

Renee what was the name of your kennel?
Carmen


----------



## hunterisgreat

Rerun said:


> SG Stormfronts Brawnson - German shepherd dog


Jäger is a brawnson grandson by Stuka, brawsons strongest son (per brawsons handler)


----------



## ladylaw203

Vom Polizeihaus. I know. Shocking..................hahahaha

I have not bred too many litters recently as I have been busy training dogs. I bought Karo and a couple of Czech bitches to start back. Maybe one day I will retire a second time.... haha
Of course, just because he is nice,does not mean he can pass it. we shall see. I will breed him to my SVV1 Jessy Vikar in a few months. Her retrieve drive is over the top too. we shall see........


----------



## hunterisgreat

ladylaw203 said:


> Vom Polizeihaus. I know. Shocking..................hahahaha
> 
> I have not bred too many litters recently as I have been busy training dogs. I bought Karo and a couple of Czech bitches to start back. Maybe one day I will retire a second time.... haha
> Of course, just because he is nice,does not mean he can pass it. we shall see. I will breed him to my SVV1 Jessy Vikar in a few months. Her retrieve drive is over the top too. we shall see........


Ha... when I day dream of my (long off) retirement, it is on a live oak speckled plantation on the water down here, where I raise & train dogs all the time.


----------



## NancyJ

But but but......the alligators will EAT your dogs down there. How about a picnic under the Angel Oak instead?


----------



## hunterisgreat

jocoyn said:


> But but but......the alligators will EAT your dogs down there. How about a picnic under the Angel Oak instead?


Only the really big ones. I am a bit sketch walking my dogs near fresh water though.


----------



## Catu

ladylaw203 said:


> Karo overseas during the IRO titling process. I finally figured out how to do photos....


With a vest in the rubble? Is that allowed with IRO?


----------



## ladylaw203

yep


----------



## carmspack

Thank you so much Renee . That was just the memory trigger that I needed.

Carmen


----------



## carmspack

Nessel Antverpa --

many of the dogs I am putting out to work have Nessel Antverpa to Gibsy Alten Wassermuhle what a pedigree combination that is in itself Queenie von Haus Antverpa - German shepherd dog

combined with Jen-Ager's Unic - German shepherd dog these two to carmspack leroy - German shepherd dog

Lots of Bernd through G - Golf / Grand and Held Ritterberg. Herding lines through Maineiche etc 

similar theme to :
there was a breeder , thank you Renee for the memory trigger. I was out training this afternoon and the whole time driving to and back and even discussing it with Mike seeing if he could help me , I even said if I knew Renee's name it would come instantly and it did !!! 

Here is a pedigree with Nessel Yago von der Polizei - German shepherd dog

Here is the breeder von der Polizei http://doggear.net/webusers/kennels/gsdk9/aboutus.html

They had years and years of success .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## rtpva

Going through these bloodlines is something else...I noticed a ton of Busecker Schloss in these dogs...you had said previously that Sagus was known for producing specific temperament traits...any thoughts on Valet? My High Line retired PPD has Busecker Schloss on all sides...even his small mixture of American line goes through Valet and Bernd Lierburg...I guess he had the right mix to do the job. Enjoyed reading through your website...beautiful dogs...thanks much.
TomP


----------



## cliffson1

When looking at PSD from the Czech republic, especially for patrol work, you will often see the lines of Cordon au Sat, Titus z PS, Gero and Omar z Blatsheko Zamu, and Cir Vrtose(sp). These dogs in particular are known for producing great work ethic and strong nerve and aggression. A common thread with Tom z PS(son of Cordon), Gero, Omar, and many of the really strong dogs from the Czech Republic is the controversial female, Klara z PS. Klara did not have the best hips and she did pass this trait through her progeny, yet she produced FABULOUS working temperament. It is not a coincidence that if you look at many of the really strong Czech dogs you will find Klara in the pedigree somewhere and often two or three times.


----------



## ed1911

My male is 3/4 Leerburg and is one of the most intelligent shepherds Ive ever seen. With my very limited dog training abilities he learned the entire USPCA police K9 obstacle course in 3 days. Before this he had never jumped over or crawled under anything. He has an extreme ball drive and will attempt anything for it.
My female dosent have quite as high a drive but is very trainable. they are both from pretty good lines.
Ive owned a couple of other AKC GSDs in the past that while they made great pets werent near as quick to learn as the ones bred for working.


----------



## Smithie86

ladylaw203 said:


> Most of theGerman Shepherd police service dogs are imported European working lines. American show lines are very rarely used. West German high dogs are used, West German working lines, Czech etc
> A large portion of police service dogs are imported Mals and Dutchies


Was mostly GSDs and there was an increase a few years ago..

There is no breeder is the states that breeds specifically for k9 work.

Dogs that work, passed the testing, including hips, elbows and spine. That is what we focused on when selecting and testing in Europe.


----------



## carmspack

There are breeders that are NOT in europe that are in USA or Canada that do breed for service. I count myself in that category. 
There are breeders that do a very fine job in breeding excellent performance dogs for schutzhund sport that are NOT in europe . Some of those good breeders are on this forum. 
They are passed over for imports , so sometimes do not have the opportunity to be appreciated as they should be. 
I have seen many announcements for "new pup" import arriving , when during the same time litters were born not so far away that were as good as , possibly better .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Smithie86

Carmen,

What I meant is that breeders that state that they breed entirely for k9 and that is it; infering that the whole and every litter is for that. 

There are breeders in the states that a few dogs from their breedings go to service; that has happened to us. But, we do not state that we breed for police nor do we count that unless the dog is certified. Many will count a puppy going to a family that has a police officer in it as a police service dog....


----------



## JakodaCD OA

the majority of police dogs around here are coming from slovakia/czech . 

There are very few that come from breeders here, I do know a girl who sometimes will get in a rescue and they end up working out well for police work. But the norm is to import or get them from an importer


----------



## wolfstraum

I don't think anyone who breeds expects the WHOLE litter to go to any specific use. There are always variations in every litter. I have dogs who are police dogs. Others who could have been sold to LE had I chosen to do so when offers were made, I chose not to sell the dogs. I have seen quite a few websites specializing in breeding for LE dogs.

Sue Coppola and Mary Davis (von der Polizei in MD) had a Nessel v h Antverpa son who was an awesome police dog, and bred several generations of police dogs from him. I had planned to use Csabre on Mike Diehl's K9, Kutter, so they could have their bloodlines back and a new LE dog for Mary, but the timing conflicted with weather and travel plans and did not get the breeding done. Nessel is in alot of LE dogs. 

Importing a puppy is sometimes to get very very specific bloodlines. I am getting a pup in a few weeks who is a Xito Maineiche granddaughter and is Mink/Fero free so that I have another one to try with Ufo down the road as my Csabre daughter IS an Ufo granddaughter already.

Lee


----------



## carmspack

I only count certified , working, graduate dogs also. 
You aim for a goal , breed with that intention, then make your evaluations , raise your dogs, make some cuts (if necessary). Not every litter is going to be 100% not even in the best closed in house breeding operations . I have had the privilege of looking at some of the pedigrees used in Swedish military and police breeding (but have lost my contact with that person) , had a look at the statistics for Metropolitan London in house breeding program (very high success ratios !!) , looked at RCMP breeding program which has had several stops and starts in the history of their efforts. I also had a friend in a young man who was a trainer at Pohranicni Straze . We helped him get on his feet when he came to Canada and benefited from his decoy work. Saw some very interesting pictures of the wolf-crosses that he was responsible for and that lived immediately behind his little government provided house . That was a state run program , WAS . 
I have had litters, large litters where all but an animal or two retained for breeding became certified working police dogs . 
Coppola and Davis had a very successful run at producing service dogs !!! Congrats to them.

My point is that domestic breeders have to be recognized and supported .

Lee , (Wolfstraum) that sounds like a super interesting pedigree -- 

Breeders will be very selective if importing specific bloodlines. For service it is end user . Question does dog work -- well okay then , doesn't matter if it is mixed, show lines, Czech, working, top drawer sport . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## ladylaw203

carmspack said:


> There are breeders that are NOT in europe that are in USA or Canada that do breed for service. I count myself in that category.
> There are breeders that do a very fine job in breeding excellent performance dogs for schutzhund sport that are NOT in europe . Some of those good breeders are on this forum.
> They are passed over for imports , so sometimes do not have the opportunity to be appreciated as they should be.
> I have seen many announcements for "new pup" import arriving , when during the same time litters were born not so far away that were as good as , possibly better .


 
Absolutely there are. HOWEVER, We need young adults for police and military service and few breeders can keep their litters until they are old enough to properly evaluate. It is just not cost effective. We can import in large numbers,nice dogs,health/hip clearances and many times already titled which speeds up training. We just cannot wait for pups. That is true with all breeds. I am a breeder too. Not in volume . I breed for myself and a few friends. I just trained a half dozen labs for the army cadaver dog contract in the middle east. We purchaed young adults with hips/elbows xrayed and a year health guarantee. 
Also, there are tons of dogs in Europe because dog sport is VERY popular. 
I just puirchased a young male Karo Skocicka samota ZM,ZOP,ZPU,FPR,ZVV1,ZZZ,ZZP,ZM TART and has the IRO international search and rescue title from my friends at Eurosport k9. I bought him for my own use,but mostly for breeding. I hope he can pass on his abilities and drive. Can I buy a dog with all of that training here? Nope. We need the europeans and their breeding programs folks.


----------



## wolfstraum

wusa9.com | Washington DC News, Weather, Video, Traffic, Sports | Video

News video of Tonka v d Polizie - Montgomery County MD Sheriff's Dept K9 - handler is breeder Mary Davis.

Tonka is from a 3/4 sister of my Kyra v Frolich Haus - Alk v Osterburg Quell daughter, and many Alk progeny became police and SAR dogs according to his breeder. Sire is a Czech import.

Lee


----------



## björn

I´m from sweden and most GSD in the police are not czech/slovak due to the fact most dogs are bought from domestic breeders(czech lines not so common here) and not imported from other countries. There are some breeders here that are breeding more strictly for "real" work and done so succesfully, I think in germany this is not common becuase people there breed for SCH, and I guess not so many servicedogs are used in breedings in germany because they must have SCH-titles to be breed which most german policedogs lacks I suppose. Here it´s not uncommon for people using policedogs as studs because a SCH-title isn´t needed for breeding.

I guess very few longlasting breedingprogram have servicedogs as a goal only, in sweden the army is now breeding their own dogs for some years, and I have a list of the dogs they use, it´s a mix of sport/policedogs from more swedish line and also dogs from other europan countries like jucan v peroh, opal vd röderburg, jabina lexus and a bunch more. The stud that so far had have the best results in his offspring according to the selectiontests done by the army is this dog,
Molars Fargo - German shepherd dog

Prior to this more recently started statesponsored breedingprogram, dogs for service was breed for over 50 years in sweden by the army, the kennel was named "arméns kennel" but later changed to the name "HS" in the 1970s. Not so much of these bloodlines are left becuase they shut down in the early 90s, but some dogs have more or less influence of these lines. Here is an example of an armydog that have these polce/army-dogs lines on his father side,
Bruksmarkens Ark - German shepherd dog


----------



## carmspack

Hello Bjorn . I had two friends which were canine handlers with Swedish military patroling Russian border . There dogs were outstanding . I was so impressed . They sent pictures of the man (they were man and wife) on a heavy draught horse with his rifle and a gsd sitting on the back of this horses ample rear end . Great dog , great horse! 
You may know them . They operated under the kennel name Brigadens. If that rings a bell could you please remember them to me so I can be back in contact .
They had the W litter which one dog scored 290 out of possible 300 , when the average score is 170. One female got 270 . Out of six dogs tested the average score was 250.66 / 300 . All hips and elbows free . There were plans on breeding to Atenagardens Tabo . Another one was to be bred to Marhojs Kastor , a military State owned dog - needing government permission to breed.
I know that this W litter had Silverpilens Tromb as sire and Hasseman's Curry as dam -- lots of Silverpilens and Polarmarkens dogs.

Marhojs was strong on Werner Dalm's famous -- outstanding hip production "east german male" Odin v Andershoffer Ufer.

I know in one breeding she did she went to Troll v h Malinda .

Also Arry vom Schloss Zweibruggen , brother to Asko , was used with some success . Arry was carried by Hasseman's Axxe.

I think Cliff would be interested in Golf Ritterberg and Bac Weissen Holz being in some high rated pedigrees of these service dogs. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

I have great respect and admiration for the program which v Polizie has had over the years. Are they still breeding?


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wolfstraum

They have had a few litters - but not from "their" lines. If I had had a litter from Csabre or Cito (Cairo too bad, was neutered, and a K9 for VSP), who went to Yago v d Polizie, in the last year, they were to get a male for a K9, and to recover their lines...mother nature has been screwing us tho. They will eventually get the lines back through my C litter, if not via Csabre, then possibly via I-Bengal...

Lee


----------



## björn

Carmen, the breeder you asked about is still active, can be seen here, Brigadens Kennel

Odin was very influental here, jack v stieglerhof was another DDR-dog you find in many pedigrees of swedish dog. Arry v schloss zweibruggen and his son the policedog hassemans axxe is also very common because axxe sired atenagårdens tabo that had many litters. Silverpilens and polarmarken was very influential and legendary breeders during the early 70s to early 90s, their names is several times in most working GSDs from sweden and many of todays succesfull breeders started out with dogs from these kennels.


----------



## cliffson1

Yes Carmen, I am a fan of the older DDR lines that go back on Ex, Haus Himpel, Ingo, Lord's sire,etc. (lol...another older DDR dog known for biddability but can't pull his name up). 
I have great respect for Sweden in terms of the German Shepherd as a whole. They have maintained a balance of good dogs that have high aptitude for working. They have been in the forefront of working tests and surveys for the breed that are geared toward true work.They have lines in that country that will rival any other country in the work without the influx of the European dogs for many generations. These people are breeding dogs and not titles and are very successful because they test their stock. Kudo to you Bjorn.


----------



## carmspack

Bjorn do you know of kennels that have NOT taken advantage of german lines and are still only old Swedish lines.
Mona, my contact, told me some inspiring stories of dogs used for message relay by the military, going back and forth for miles , with distractions and under gun fire , working independantly. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## björn

Carmen, breeders that only use swedish lines are not that common, if you by old swedish lines means dogs with no german imports since 30-40 years ago. But breeders who mix older swedish lines with more modern germans dogs are pretty common, or dogs which pedigree consists of mostly swedish dogs since the 70s or longer back in time. Many of the swedish lines are pretty tight breed so therefore I think many nowadays like to use dogs that aren´t so related to what they have, which is now easier than in former times when foreign blood was restricted due to strict quranatinelaws since sweden is rabiesfree. Breeders which are very into IPO may also like to use german dogs for this, IPO is pretty new here so people more intressted in the traditional workingtrials may be more intressted to use dogs from the older swedish lines.

I guess it´s a matter of definition when a dog could be said to be of czech or swedish bloodlines as an example , but if we take this dog he has one DDR-dog in the 4th generation, jack v stieglerhof, the rest of the foreign dogs are starting to appear in the mid 70s or even longer back like the 50s. So I guess we can call him a dog of swedish bloodlines,
KORAD Norpatorps Poker - German shepherd dog

Messengerdogs that was used under the wars is still done as competitions nowadays, as are the rest of the competitions that is available in sweden and at least in former times also in the rest of the nordic countries, some explanations of these trials here,
New Page 0


----------

