# how to choose a herding dog



## twhvlr (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi, I'm new to this forum and to GSD's but I have owned several other breeds in the past. I would like a GSD for several reasons. Family pet, personal protection (not trained for this, just to bark, intimidation factor and maybe protect me as a friend as I would for it) and herding. I am planning on getting some sheep in the future and would like it to help me with them. I have read a lot on this forum and other web sites over the past week and have not seen much advice on how to choose a herding puppy. I would be OK with an older puppy or rescue dog too. Are there certain bloodlines that I should be looking for? What traits should I be seeing in the puppy? I keep reading of "working lines" but it seems like this is not referring to herding but to protection. Is this the line that I should be looking at? Any advice would greatly appreciated. I'm not in a great hurry as my husband and I are dog sitting my son's 2 boxers until at least October until he returns from Iraq.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I keep hearing the Kirschental bloodlines in connection with herding. Might be something to look into. If your plan is to herd, you'll definitely want to go with a breeder who works their dogs on sheep, just like someone who wants to Schutzhund should go to a breeder who works their dog in that sport, and someone who wants to win in the show ring should go to a breeder whose dogs do well in shows.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

You would be looking at working line dogs that work in herding instead of protection, but any working line dogs could have the propensity to do well in hobby herding. Whatever breeder you chose would be picking the puppy for you for that venue and would know what to look for, you really don't have to know what to find in the puppy at all.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

herding that the GSD was developed for is not the same herding that everyone automatically thinks of --- .
Kirschental is not so much herding as a herding trials or competition dog.
What you might be looking for is that really smart old farm dog intelligence .
Later this spring I am going to try one of my males out on a mini flock.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/

Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training

http://members.cox.net/gsdvominsel/index.htm


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

carmspack said:


> herding that the GSD was developed for is not the same herding that everyone automatically thinks of --- .
> Kirschental is not so much herding as a herding trials or competition dog.
> What you might be looking for is that really smart old farm dog intelligence .
> Later this spring I am going to try one of my males out on a mini flock.
> ...


Carmen, there is a herding test happening in the next few months (I think it's June) that Stark's breeder and I are going too. She works her girls on sheep and I know has a few youngsters as well as puppy/dog owners who are going (myself included). It's being put on by the Mal club out that way. Not sure if you knew about it or are interested at all.. just thought I would mention it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My Carmspack Samba very talented on stock. It would be her activity of choice and mine had we any sheepies in nearby counties. First herding judge to evaluate her wanted her.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Herding trials, particularly of the AKC variety, are very very different from real world/farm work type herding. There aren't that many people who do herding any more, particularly of the more real world style or the German HGH style. But then there aren't many people any more who have a pastoral lifestyle or the means to keep livestock, so that sort of makes sense.

If looking for a herding dog for real work, I'd probably get ahold of these folk and pick their brains a bit:
Ulf Kintzel
Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm

Ellen Nicklesberg
German Shepherd Herding


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

There are plenty of people that do real farm herding, they're just hard to find if you don't know where to look. They don't go to competitions, they're not active on web forums, they're not breed enthusiasts. They're old guys on farms with livestock. Growing up we always had a couple of border collie/Australian Cattle Dog/Catahoula/whatever mixes that worked the cattle. They were incredibly valuable in getting a cow out of whatever thorn bush or stand of trees she had gotten into that you couldn't follow with a horse or 4-wheeler. They knew how to bring them in to the pen or select one or two out of a herd for you to get into the chute for branding/castrating/etc. They certainly weren't purebred or registered anything, and from what I can remember the young ones learned from the older ones. Nobody took their dogs to herding clinics. They just worked. 

We got our first one when we traded 400 square bales to another rancher for him.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Contact someone who does herding or has titled one of their dogs in herding


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh so you are that Samba !!!!!! HI !!!! You would drool over Carmspack Sumo Carmspack Sumo - German shepherd dog
He's the blocky long coat pup on my web site. His sister is in Joanne Plumb's sch h and promises some exciting results.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have had quite a few dogs do real life farm work - dairy cattle, swine round up for market -- try getting a big old sow onto a loading ramp and you will see why the dogs need to be tough . Same dog though knew the routine , escort kids to end of drive , see them onto the bus, return home, reverse for late afternoon.
The dogs had a temporal sense.

That is why I said to look into the old farm dog smarts --- .

I see some of the "kirschental" dogs ,mmmm , not for me


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've been amazed how much natural herding instinct has been retained in the schutzhund bloodlines.

A friend of mine who trains and trials with border collies got a pup from my J litter, Jedi, and has herded with him--she thinks he's super--useful around the farm and good in the AHBA trials she's taken him to (he beat one of her BCs in one trial--he got first, her BCs got 2nd and 3rd; the 2nd day he got 2nd!). 

She got a 2nd GSD from my DDR litter, named her Leia, and is thrilled with how she's starting out in herding (only 8 months old).

So, it's sort of sheer luck combined with her training knowledge that Jedi turned out so well in herding--his parents both worked in schutzhund and none of his ancestors were selected for their herding ability. But I have since seen several of his siblings do some herding training and they too show definite instinct and desire. It was really neat to see how much instinct had been preserved.

I'd say definitely find someone who is herding with their GSDs. Ulf Kintzel is definitely a good person to contact to start.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Every GSD that I have tested on stock (20+) have shown instinct, but they have shown varying levels of drive and desire. Alta-Tollhaus breeds from the Kirschental bloodlines. They are German Show lines that still work sheep on a daily basis. 

What experience do you have with sheep and herding?


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## yuricamp (Mar 13, 2011)

twhvlr said:


> ..... my husband and I are dog sitting my son's 2 boxers until at least October until he returns from Iraq.


 
...good on ya for taking care of the dogs for your son. It's good to know someone you trust is taking care of your puppies while your deployed! I bet it's a lot of work! Thanks!:thumbup:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> Every GSD that I have tested on stock (20+) have shown instinct, but they have shown varying levels of drive and desire.


Last year a herding judge mentioned that to me. It seems some herding instinct to some degree is something that hangs on pretty well though not selected for in many of the dogs particularly.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Ulf Kintzel
> Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


I know some people who are doing herding with Ulf and their retired SchH dogs. I have never met him, but from what they say he's the real deal and takes his herding stuff very seriously! He'd definitely be able to point you in the right direction and would be a great person to contact.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Herding trials, particularly of the AKC variety, are very very different from real world/farm work type herding. There aren't that many people who do herding any more, particularly of the more real world style or the German HGH style. But then there aren't many people any more who have a pastoral lifestyle or the means to keep livestock, so that sort of makes sense.
> 
> If looking for a herding dog for real work, I'd probably get ahold of these folk and pick their brains a bit:
> Ulf Kintzel
> ...


Very interesting web site about sheep.

One very interesting line on it was the following:
"The flock is tended by German Shepherd Dogs and guarded by a Great Pyrenees."

Wouldn't the herding GSD's also protect the flock from predators?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think the GSD would protect if a predator came along. I am not flock person or herder! But, around here the Great Pyrenees are raised with the sheep. They have little human contact and adopt the sheep as their pack. The Pyrs are with the flock 24 hours a day and they do set up on hills overlooking the flock when I see them. It seems a different mindset and approach with the guardian dogs versus the herding ones.

The people here have Maremas, Gamprs and Anatolians as guardians also.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Great articles! Thanks for posting the website. I didn't 'pick' Stosh for herding, in fact I really hadn't considered it until he was about a year old. I think some dogs just have more ability and drive than others, I'm not sure how you could tell ahead of time.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> I think the GSD would protect if a predator came along. I am not flock person or herder! But, around here the Great Pyrenees are raised with the sheep. They have little human contact and adopt the sheep as their pack. The Pyrs are with the flock 24 hours a day and they do set up on hills overlooking the flock when I see them. It seems a different mindset and approach with the guardian dogs versus the herding ones.
> 
> The people here have Maremas, Gamprs and Anatolians as guardians also.


I had heard about the GP as protecters!

Can you imagine the poor coyote who wants a bite of sheep when he sees this GIANT fast dog come roaring after him!!!!!!!

A true Coyote nightmare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Flock guardians and herding dogs are totally different and view the sheep differently .
Here is a site that I have been following for years , analysing the pedigrees and then comparing and contrasting to new blood that I have added to my breeding program. Everything has a long range plan . If you look at the upper right hand corner of the site's banner there is a female HGH that is perfection in motion. This is what a level back allows you to do . All the GSL have dogs that look like they are lifting off for flight . MOTIONLESS back (not like some sea monster) , far roomy extension at front from the arm , strong back. "von Lord Fandor"
That is efficient , all day movement.

Mr Baumann is a true shepherd -- . I have written him a few times over the years.
I have very similar genetics "von Lord Fandor"

enjoy
Carmen


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Oh, cool, Carmen. Thanks for the link. I was delighted to see that one of their females, Liss, is a half-sister to my Xita. Some really good looking dogs on that site!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

There are a few American Show Line breeders that participate in herding. One is Rivendell GSD's in California: Rivendell Shepherds, and another is Kubistraum Kennels in Minnesota [email protected]. 

You could join the Herding Group at Yahoo [email protected]. They are good for sheep management, dog training, etc.

Good Luck on your search!


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## twhvlr (Mar 22, 2011)

>I bet it's a lot of work!
You bet it has been! The female was 2 years old and the puppy was about 4 1/2 months old when he left. He has never taught them ANYTHING!! I've taught them to stay off the furniture, come, sit, down, & stay. It's not been easy as I think that they are very hard headed dogs as a breed. I've threatened to beat him if he lets the training slip when he gets back.
As to herding and sheep: I have absolutely no experience at all. I'm a knitter that wants to raise her own wool and meat. I was raised on a farm in Ohio. We raised pigs and cattle and I've always had a dog. We own 40 acres that we have 3 horses grazing. We also have open range up here on the mountain that I'd like to be able to make use of. I also have an interest in agility so I thought that a GSD would possibly be a good dog to meet my needs/desires. I really value training in a dog especially as I get older.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a beautiful picture of a dog herding in the style it was meant to. Minding its own business, sheep peacefully grazing, beautiful movement on the dog !!!
Belongs to a forum member --
SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German shepherd dog

Of interest is the pedigree , the sire being Vox v d Kine. Another dog which I am appreciating is Dorian a d Konigshohle, same sire -- Vox. A blending of two powerful herding lines coming through from the ddr Lord Gleisdreieck , and from the west Uwe Kirshental. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

AH my friend has a Lord Grandaughter who cannot tolerate the livestock on her farm being "out of place" and makes sure they are where they are supposed to be if they get out of a fence.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thank you - I have some video and pictures from today that I will be posting shortly...if YouTube would cooperate  It keeps crashing and my internet is so slow to upload things...

Kessy has a lot of drive/power, is intense and has a very strong presence and body language. I don't know if she would be able to work just a handful of sheep...I think they'd be too light especially if not a "heavy" breed of sheep. She does fine with the current flock of about 80 or so, but I can feel the difference, they are a lot lighter than the summertime flock of 200+. For a very small flock it would be a nightmare...I'd have to squash so much of the drive and turn it into an obedience exercise, I don't think she'd enjoy it if it was even possible. But with a large flock she can turn it on (to a certain extent - I still can't let her get out of control) and I don't have to micromanage every step.

If I was looking for a dog for a small flock I would definitely look for a very calm dog to keep the sheep from panicking. But you still want some drive and workability and herding instinct and it can be hard to find that balance.


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## twhvlr (Mar 22, 2011)

>and it can be hard to find that balance

I guess that I'm having a hard time understanding this. Weren't GSD's originally bred for herding? It's in their name for heavens sake! Has it been totally bred out of them? Before I started researching them, I thought "working dog" meant herding. Now it seems that it means just about anything but that. I love the idea that they are an all purpose dog (one of the reasons that I am so excited about them in the first place) but it just seems that they aren't what they were originally bred for anymore. Hope I'm not offending anyone but it's kind of frustrating to this newbie.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

How many people do you know who have sheep?

As the number of people with the need for a dog to herd sheep has decreased, the need and use of dogs in other jobs has increased. The GSD has stepped up to the plate and is most known nowadays not for its herding ability, but rather for its versatility--they can be service dogs or search and rescue dogs or bomb-finding or drug finding or people finding dogs. They can do bitework for sport or for police or military work and they can guide the blind. And they can herd sheep. From one litter born last summer, I have puppies working in herding, SAR, agility, as a service dog, in schutzhund, and in personal protection--that is versatility within a litter.

The same dog can't necessarily do all of these jobs, but the same breed can. There's not many other breeds about which you could say that. If GSDs were specialists largely working in sheep herding, they wouldn't be the 2nd most popular breed in the US. 

If you want a dog who is bred mainly to herd sheep, perhaps you should be looking at the herding specialists--Border Collies?


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## twhvlr (Mar 22, 2011)

>perhaps you should be looking at the herding specialists--Border Collies

I thought that I was! I was looking at the "shepherds".


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Argh I had a post written but it got eaten  
Anyway...GSDs are not meant to herd small flocks of 5-25 sheep. They are meant to tend and herd flocks of 200-1200 or more. The larger the flock, the "heavier" the sheep, which means that they will not react to the dog as strongly. The GSD's were meant to patrol the borders of a specific area for hours while the sheep spread out and graze. If the sheep are too nervous around the dog, they will not relax and graze. This means they will lose weight and in turn the shepherd loses money. So the sheep must be calm and should respect the dog, but should be comfortable knowing that they are safe and can graze right up to the border to utilize every inch of available pasture (without crossing it - then the dog is allowed to grip and/or chase them back in).

A GSD has a very upright herding style - a border collie works outside the bubble that would cause the sheep to panic. But the GSD does not herd that way. They work right next to the sheep. This is NOT the ideal situation for a small flock...they will panic. If you have a very calm GSD who will follow your commands, you can work a GSD with a small flock. But it was not how GSD's were "designed."

The flock we currently work with is about 80 sheep - they are definitely much "lighter" and more reactive than the flock of 200+ that we'll be working in a few months. Kessy does best with a large flock because she is very powerful. She can work this size flock fine, it's just not the ideal size for her temperament. Every dog is different though, some are super calm and would be fine for a small flock, but others are not that way...there is a huge variety in the temperament and drive level of GSD's. It would be important to find one that fits your needs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but the main qualities of a good working herding dog are still important for all other areas of work. You want the ability to work with a partner, to work reliably and trustworthy independantly, you want physical endurance, mental stamina for the long haul , confidence, guidability / biddability. Calm and sure , authority .
Border collies are not the only choice, in fact some of them are sharp and punishing - my sister has rescued more than one sheep killer , locked in prey , obsessive border collie.
Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sheep are flighty , and there are different breeds. Some are stubborn and will resist the shepherd, others are so flighty the direct eye contact , a useful tool of the border collie can move them. 
The German shepherd was not developed as a farm dog . They were involved in a much greater movement of sheep over long distances. The movement historically is called TRANSHUMANCE , the yearly migration of sheep in the 1,000's from the valley to the mountain graze and then back -- two main movements , spring and fall. In the meantime the GSD was used as a containment system. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Regarding their still inate herding ability, about a year and a half ago we did a herding instinct test with a group of various aged GSD's (6 mo to about 2 yo) from a group that mets every Saturday here for obedience and socializing. About all (12-150 dogs in total) took the test. All but 1 (who just didn't like those critters!) of them passsed - some with flying colors!

BTW, ALL of these dogs were from one of the top US SL kennels!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Herding trials, particularly of the AKC variety, are very very different from real world/farm work type herding. There aren't that many people who do herding any more, particularly of the more real world style or the German HGH style. But then there aren't many people any more who have a pastoral lifestyle or the means to keep livestock, so that sort of makes sense.
> 
> If looking for a herding dog for real work, I'd probably get ahold of these folk and pick their brains a bit:
> Ulf Kintzel
> ...


I was going to suggest Ulf too. He is on Facebook. White Clover Sheep Farm. Not far from me either. He has a pup he is just starting on his sheep.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What about a Kelpie instead of a BC or GSD? Not many Kelpie breeders in the US however...and many of them aren't that attractive!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Why not a German Shepherd? I trained with Nancy Obermark in nothern Mississippi for several years and with 2 generations of my American Show Lines. She had German Shepherds as well, so I felt comfortable training with her. We often did ranch work around her place (much more fun than just doing "training") -- sorting sheep for vet care or sale or lessons, moving sheep from one field to another for grazing after lessons, penning and trailering. 

For a while my dogs and I worked at another farm that was in rural Missouri -- the owner had Border Collies but sometimes needed help from another trained dog. We even worked as a set out dog for a AKC "A" course trial. The dogs would work ewes with lambs (that takes both power and wisdom), new sheep that didn't know about dogs (Wolf!), and sorting sheep for lessons from a 10x10 box stall (courage).

So, why not a Germans Shepherd?


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## jkscandi50 (Nov 17, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Regarding their still inate herding ability, about a year and a half ago we did a herding instinct test with a group of various aged GSD's (6 mo to about 2 yo) from a group that mets every Saturday here for obedience and socializing. About all (12-150 dogs in total) took the test. All but 1 (who just didn't like those critters!) of them passsed - some with flying colors!
> 
> BTW, ALL of these dogs were from one of the top US SL kennels!


Kai and I did an activity like this one on Sunday, 3/27 with the Treasure Coast German Shepherd Dog Club -- we had a great time at a place call Asher Dell Farm (owner, Judith Kelly, trains border collies) - all the dogs did exhibit herding instinct! It was Kai's first time seeing sheep - 2 times in ring = the second time in ring - brought the sheep to my face and went and laid down - I couldn't believe it.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> How many people do you know who have sheep?
> 
> If you want a dog who is bred mainly to herd sheep, perhaps you should be looking at the herding specialists--Border Collies?


I'm rather partial to English Shepherds, though perhaps I'm a bit biased.  They're more of an all-around farm dog/farmhand than a specialty herder like the Border Collie, though. They're also one of the few breeds that haven't been ruined by popularity. I hope they never become a "trendy" breed.

After having a German Shepherd, it can be really hard to live with a dog that has only normal dog intelligence. A person gets a bit spoiled, y'know?? Fortunately English Shepherds still have the brains & common sense of a true working dog.


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## Stewart (Apr 29, 2021)

carmspack said:


> herding that the GSD was developed for is not the same herding that everyone automatically thinks of --- .
> Kirschental is not so much herding as a herding trials or competition dog.
> What you might be looking for is that really smart old farm dog intelligence .
> Later this spring I am going to try one of my males out on a mini flock.
> ...


If you’re looking for a working line German Shepherd probably not the best but your normal pedigree Shepherd definite good working line has a tendency to Be a lot more aggressive as I’ve owned one before but your normal pedigree can still be very aggressive but be much more controllable and will pick up things that’s just my advice


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

That was a thread from 2011.


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## Stewart (Apr 29, 2021)

Sorry ok


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