# Okay!!!!! HELP!!!!



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have never had a GSD that has shown aggression to people before and I have had GSD's for over 20 years. Maybe my number is up!







I am actually getting a little afraid of the behavior.









Havoc is German showlines out of SchH titled parents, he is pretty drivy but a wonderfully obedient dog. He is 15 months old and neutered at 12.5 months. He has been well socialized too and is currently in 2 agility classes as well as an obedience class. He began lunging and barking at people, including kids, about 6 weeks ago. I was pretty surprised and we went back to work on social skills. I saw a vast improvement until today. 

I took him for a walk on a fairly unused old dirt road out in the desert. We met two walkers out there, one an older man that he has barked at before so I gave him lots of space and Havoc still came unglued. 10 minutes later we pass an older lady carrying a big stick. She stops to admire Havoc and again he goes nuts. Both times he broke a sit stay while these people stopped to talk to me.

I do not see fear here but I could be mistaken. I am not sure if this is just being a bratty teen and he needs to be laid out or he needs a gentle hand to work through this. All I know is I am getting really unnerved by this and he is not too far from being muzzled.

The only thing I can think of is he felt unease on this little used road and felt the need to protect? I have to admit I was surprised to see people too but not unnerved by it, I have seen people out there before. Protection is my job not his and the behavior is totally unacceptable.

Never thought I would scream for HELP!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Don't have any words of wisdom Kathy, just wanted you to know I'll be thinking of you and Kayos this week, I hope you'll have a chance to keep us updated


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Kayos, the dip, managed to hurt her toe this weekend. No broken skin but I think she bruised it. I am washing it and keeping Gentocin spray on it so she does not lick it. Any sign of infection and no surgery. 

I swear I am sending them all to the shelter. Just being frustrated this week. I could choke Havoc. Can I????


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

It's a good thing we love our dogs, 'cause if we didn't....somedays (weeks, months, years) just seem like they'll never end.

And no







you can't choke Havoc though I know exactly how you feel - Just for different reasons.

Is he in the sit stay before he goes nuts?


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

Maybe being bratty, a bit unsure since it was a quiet road, got a little defensive?? 
You know him best Kathy and your a great trainer. I guess my 2 cents if it were me; I'd set him up and correct him. Then get him in those situations around lots of people..get his attention on you, work obedience, get out his toy, food whatever-tons of praise... if he pulls it again, nail him..make it black and white.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I agree with Trish. If this is a fearful dog issue, I might expect to see this earlier. I would do as Trish suggests. Act as if you expect all to be calm. No explosions. Relaxed mellow Kathy, smart dog-trainin' lady, gets out her treats, toys, deep serious voice, upbeat happy voice, etc.. whatever you use for training, and go train. Around people. Gooooooooood Havoc! Great Sit! Gooooooood Havoc! Great Down! BUT.. here is where I would add something. Watch him watching the people in the parkinglot, or the park, or whatever people-y area you choose to work in. The SECOND the thought enters his brain to detonate, make it abundantly clear YOU are the one who will be doing any of the barking and growling that must be done, if any!

I know how frustrating and scary this can be when they explode. Embarrassing, too-- as people have their calm, bloblike dogs, and ours detonate embarrassingly, even after ALL the work, time, money, effort we put into training and socializing and shaping behaviors.

I think one of the worst aspects of this is: No two dog owners, trainers, behaviorists will have the same take on WHY our dogs detonate. Example: In a doggy magazine here in Germany, the problem was listed: A 4 year old female mixed breed barks loudly at passersby. Everyone wrote in to give the reason: One person said the dog was never shown who was boss and needed strong corrections. Another was sure the dog was scared and needed gentle desensitisation and positive only methods. The next person was sure the dog was never socialized well enough. The last person suggested the dog was protecting the owner. See? Diagnosis has to do with what people have experienced with their own dogs, and what methods they themselves prefer to use to train. Maybe finding a good, reccomended behaviorist-- who THINKS-- and is eclectic in his or her methods-- could help get an accurate diagnosis, and then a workable gameplan for both you and sweetie Havoc?

Sending good vibes for you and for Havoc! HUGS!!

Patti and Grimm (been there, barked at that!)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

While generally I'm all about the training and prong (and still am LOL) I'm also not into 'correcting' for aggression unless I KNOW my timing is right, or I'm able to re-direct early before the dog explodes (which is hard to get timing wise if I'm not paying attention).

Have you tried the Gentle Leader Head collar? I think it's ideal for these situations because it really helps control the head and keep the dog controlled without quite so much reliance on the handler. It's one thing when I'm in 'training mode' and ready to help. But on a long walk I'm not always 100% vigilant.

http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/collars/gentleleader/description

http://www.kooldawgtees.com/GLtestimonials.html


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Absolutely I agree with this. I also feel that if this just unsure fear behavior correction will only make it worse. I do have a GL for him and I make the dog walker that comes during the week use it on him. I may need to start using it too.

Yesterday he was wearing a prong but I had the leash on his buckle collar and switched to the prong when we were up in traffic near the highway.

You know he does not do this in controlled settings which is why my little brain thinks he felt unease in me. Even so protection is still my decision not his. I did correct him for breaking the stay. If he had been very serious I would have been unable to control him on a buckle collar. 

I am going walking with Marshmallows (Stacy) later today after I get done tracking. See if we can work on this. Havoc has not seen Stacy in awhile I know she won't be unhappy if I set him up at her expense.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Let us know how it goes.

I should be down that way on the 20th on my way to Vancouver. Hopefully you and Oksana (and whoever else) will be "out and about" so "we" can meet you. You can set him up at MY expense, I am used to maniacal barking.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

i wonder if this might be another developmental stage... Quest is barking at everything and is about the same age.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I wanna be barked at by sweetie Havoc, too!!







I wish you guys weren't all so far across the pond from me.

I will be sending good thoughts for Havoc, Kathy! Love that handsome hunky boy!!







May this problem soon be solved and a thing of the past for both you and Havoc.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LandosMomi wonder if this might be another developmental stage... Quest is barking at everything and is about the same age.


That was my thoughts also. I think this is the final (well hopefully) fear stage. It is almost as if all recognition and proofing has leapt out of the window and we need to start again. Just start treating him like a pup and allow his natural good nerves to prevail by encouraging to do his meet and greet and be rewarded. 

Quynne is nearly 4yo and has weak nerves and a fortnight ago she lunged and barked at someone she has known from a pup because he is now using a crutch after hip surgery. He was willing to let her approach and once she found it was just metal she wanted to drown him in kisses. It is disconcerting as their displays certainly are deterring and look and sound aggressive but with the correct handling and hopefully a willing participant this will pass and confidence wil return.


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## RJsmommy (Dec 11, 2007)

I'm currently going through the same thing with RJ. The behaviorist I am working with says that he's trying to be over-protective. She was quite impressed with his temperament and said he's got quite the stable temperament, just over-protective. This started with him in February, a month before he turned 2 years old.

I've been working on redirecting his attention back to me and the moment he looks at me, I praise him. I do work him on a prong because I'm worried that a head halter will injure his neck with as hard as he hits the end of his leash.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Landos Mom I know some lines mature slower than others which is why I am a little loathe to label it just yet. Maybe Quest and Havoc are hitting the last of the teen fear periods? I am just not sure myself so my gut tells me to simply be consistent and unyielding in my expectations and remain calm. Not really correction but not really positive reinforcement either just neutral and low key.

Correct for disobedience not the barking? That make sense?

Tracy I think I have agility in the afternoon that day but I plan on tracking in the AM. So I will be in the Tri-Cites all day on the 20th. I will see Oksana in about an hour or so at tracking so I will make sure she knows if she does not see this.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Eh Kathy, this is just, to me, standard dog. I was just last night reading a passage from "...Bones would rain from the Sky" - the one where she talks about GSDs being dramatic & overly vocal - all the signs they throw up about "keep your distance" to puppies - vs the Scottish Deerhound who gives two raised eyebrows and you're in trouble. 
What I've learned over 23 dog years of The Barker Sisters teaching me a thing or two is - 1. crowds are fine (which was a surprise) 2. solo people must approach in a particular fashion 3. men need soft voices or to be obvious best buds with the woman (me) and to approach at an angle 4. If I am surprized, they will bark. I do not need to be unnerved. 5. If I get unnerved when they bark (it often was so unexpected ((OK when WHEN? will I ever learn??)) that I get one heck of an adrenalyn (sp) rush.) 6. "Good Dog!" and happiness on my part, stupid as it may sound to the barkee, works best for restoring quiet. It is especially effective if I can get the barkee to hand them a treat after they sit and ask for it. 

Silly story from many moons ago in Wyoming... When my friend Kevin moved back to town, he asked me to come by his new place to check it out & bring the dogs. I expected them to get out of the truck and give him hel*. Kevin walked up enthusiastically greeted me with a big hug, I turned the dogs loose and they gave not a crap about Kevin but set to exploring his yard and ignoring my attempts to show off their splendid obedience... 

They are living beings, I'm slowly learning to speak dog. Until I get a lot more fluent, they are not always going to perform as I expect... or want.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Great story!!!!

We were at tracking this morning and lo and behold Mr H did his "thing" when a couple came through the parking lot at the library complex we were at. I was actually happy because a lot of other savvy dog folk were there and our consensus was this is a control issue. As in I want to control who comes close to my mom. I firmly but not harshly corrected him and enforced a sit stay and rewarded the obedience then he was fine. Then we wnt up to the people and I fed him and they were able to pet him.

I have not had a male pup since 1991 and never a pup so drivy as Havoc. All my pups have been American line dogs as well that seem to mature a little earlier than the German lines. So I was unsure about the root case of this. I do know had it been fearful a hard correction would make it worse so was really loathe to lay him out for it. On the other hand happy talk and treats in this situation can give him the idea that this is okay and it is not okay! 

So I opted for a more neutral approach with plain firm guidance and then reward the obedience. Although the cause was not fear as far as any of us could tell, the calm, firm approach stopped him. I even asked one GSD owner who has a lot more experience than I how I had handled it and she said great! Not harsh but not too easy either.

I think I just need to firmly stay on top of him or he will be out of hand.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, you handled it wonderfully this morning! Havoc wasn't scared a bit and I do know how a scared reaction looks like (year and a half working with Yana on her barking at anybody approaching us). I need to learn your technique with that collar and muzzle grip.

It was funny that Yana didn't care about the man at first and then decided to start barking at him because Havoc did. 

PS I'm not that experienced GSD owner Kathy mentioned LOL Just wanted to clarify that


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