# Food agression - Otto and my son and/or Morgan



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

It's happened three times now so I'm looking for some advice.

This morning, James (6 y/o) fed Otto (20months). He's been giving Otto his kibble for a few weeks now, my intention being Otto should start to see him as a higher level pack member. They have some other relationship issues that I'm working on with both of them.

James left the feed box on the floor right next to Otto's dish. He's bad about leaving stuff in the wrong place so I reminded him to pick it up and where it goes. Otto growled. I thought maybe it was becuase Morgan was walking in the room - nope she was in the pantry with her own food. 

I knelt down, scooped some food out of his bowl and he happily ate it out of my hand. Did it again, he ate some then resumed eating out his bowl. James came over to see what I was doing, Otto growled again.

Now I do need to add -as disgusting as it is - James sometimes walks over and takes some food out of Morgan's bowl. She eats a different food than Otto. I'm sure Otto has seen him doing this. Drives me nuts, it's gross and I'm sure that's why James does it. Morgan could care less, he's her person.

When Otto growled at him the first time, a few weeks ago, James had gotten up from dinner. Otto went into where James sits and James came up behind him. I was sitting right there but I'm not sure if James didn't poke him or something. He did have Otto pinned between the table, the wall and me - the only way out was to walk backwards. I grabbed Otto by the neck and told him no.

Another time, Otto was in the dishwasher (which I've since put a stop to), James took him by the collar and told him no. Otto growled at him and backed off.

Now the Morgan issue - she has in the past growled at him for being near her when she's eating. She's outright attacked him a few times. He still comes near her food but never tries to eat it. She hasn't grumbled at him for being near her food in maybe 6 months.

A few weeks ago, Otto was inspecting the fridge while I was putting food away. Morgan came over, he growled at her. I stood up, separated them by their collars, told them to knock it off and sent them away - done.

Last week, same thing, he had his big head in a bag of flatmeat I was putting away. I told him no, he looked up and Morgan was right there. He snarked her, I told him no but she didn't back up. Ended up taking them both by the collar, he was still growling and sort of lunging at her. (I say sortof becuase he's strong, was wearing just a buckle collar and I only had one hand on him - there's been times he's really mad at her and I can't pull him back without scruffing him) I sent her to the mudroom and had to forcibly remove him to the panty and shut the door.

What gives? Trying to assert his dominance - he is that age... Trying to say all the food belongs to him? 

I really don't like it that he's growling at my son over food. He never has growled at either of my other children - just James.

Ideas? I'm a bit nervous about having James handfeed him.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Wow, all I can say is I'm sorry Jenn. I guess until he is a bit older (both the kid and the pup) they should keep a distance from each other at meal time. And while I get what you are doing with the food, I'm not sure the dog is buying it from the 6 year old. I mean, he can hand him the food, but he is still a small child with a small child demeaner...does that make sense? I mean, it is more than just resources I think.....it is a way of carrying yourself too, self assurance etc... 

Anyway, I wish I had more to offer as a resolution. I would just keep your son out of the food area until he is older. There is just too much at risk and I woldnt want to push it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Yeah that makes sense. Since Otto eats breakfast while my son does, I'm going to switch up where Otto and Morgan eat. She takes her time and since she eats in the pantry, Otto is often in there while I'm cooking since that's where the stove is (old house, the fridge in the dinning room). Where Otto eats is next to the fridge and under the cabinette where I keep the plates and snacks - so maybe that's also a good reason to switch them.

Hopefully Morgan won't have a problem with that - she's been eating in there for 8 years.

I started having James give him the food after the cornering at the table incident. James is one of those boys that makes even a saint understand (not condone, just understand) how little boys end up locked in closets. He's actively defiant, tell him no don't eat Morgan's food, he giggles and gets another handful. I don't have these problems with the other 2 and they're younger than him!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

My sister had 4 boys........2 of them, well I cant say in polite society, but she told me once that she understood why some species of animals ate their young....... sigh 

It is a tough situation. Sorry I cant be of more help, but maybe someone else will have some good suggestions to remedy the situation.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

There are no kids here as I'm 20 now, but when I was younger, 16, I remember Cody starting this dominance thing with me with his food, testing his waters you could say, I put an end to that by grabbing his scruff and putting him on the floor, (not meanly or harsh) and letting him stay there until he was calm, no I did not watch cesar then..., I then proceeded to hand feed him EVERY meal for a month. Has never done that since. I think he was a year then. I wanted to nip that behavior in the butt right then and there. 

Pre Akbar days, Cody and Isa use to growl at each other a few years ago. I slowly started putting there bowls closer together over a few years time, gradually so that when this process was over, they could eat side by side and it's been like that now for a year. No problems there.









But if one of my dogs has a bone, forget it, they will attack each other so I have to seperate them while eating bones. Especially Akbar with the other two.... I'm gonna have to nip that.

With Akbar, from day one I hand fed him, I even kept my hand in his bowl while he ate for a couple months after hand feeding him. I still every now and then keep my hand in there, also have my mom put her hands in there and he wags his tail. He growled once when Isa walked by, nipped that by giving him a good correction, I don't allow any aggressive behavior when it comes to feeding time.

Also, what helped Akbar stay more calm and know that I'm in charge, which might help James if you don't already do this, is to have them wait for there food to be put in there bowl. Do this by having them sit, don't say anything, not even sit or good boy. Wait for him to sit and then start putting the food bowl down, if he gets up, don't say anything just bring the bowl back up and wait for him to sit. Be patient, of course he might get this quickly. When he's sitting, try again and put the food bowl down, if it reaches the floor but he moves, pick up right away and wait for him to sit again. He might get frustrated but wait it out, it probably would be a good thing to put him on the leash so he can't go anywhere. Akbar was frustrated the first few times he did this but now waits calmly for the food to be put down and for me to stand up straight and for him to look me in the eyes for a few seconds. When otto is sitting and waiting calmly for the food as you put it down and stand up, wait for him to look at you, even if it's for a second, reward him by giving him the food. I would recommend doing this with just a few kibbles each time so you can do this over and over till he's waiting calmly. You want to get where you can have him sitting away from the bowl while you place it down and can stand up without him moving or whinning and him looking at you. Akbar got this in one training session, now does this at EVERY meal time. 
I hope this helps a little.









Another thing, I don't know about the things James is going through, I was wondering if maybe James can walk/exercise/play with Otto all the time, making it so that everything in Otto's life comes from James, that way he'll see him as a good thing and as a pack leader.









I hope everything works out.









EDIT: I forgot to add, I just read that James and everyone eats at the same time as the dogs. I eat before my dogs do because in the wild, pack leaders eat first then the lower ranked dogs second so maybe you all should eat first then feed the dogs.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

James sounds a lot like my number three son who is now 22 and a network admin. When he was little i had to feed one of our dogs in a quiet spot away from the kids. If Otto is fine with your other children maybe he is trying to "help" you discipline James? And he does not want James doing to her food what he does to Morgans. I think just watch them closely until both mature a bit and not letting Otto get away with it


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Jenn, Renji is food aggro with DF. He is not one bit food aggro with me. Of course I do most of the training, but another thing I did was from Day One for a few weeks was feed his entire meal as training treats in one session. I got his food, had it in his bowl, and he had to earn every last morsel except for a "good job" jackpot at the end. He was always fed in his crate and out of the way so he would not get anxious about food. I also made sure to randomly walk by and toss in a really special treat or a pile of goodies. If I have to take something from him- and it has happened a couple times- it's all good. DF gets a very low growl and hard eyes. It's so bad with DF that if Renji sees DF walking close to his meal WHILE I AM PREPARING IT, he will body block my DF!! Holy moly. I never once had this problem because for the longest time Renji has had to earn every last drop.... sometimes I still make him do tough obedience before putting down the bowl.

Would James be willing to do light training with Otto? Something like sits, downs, hold positions while he claps or jumps around, fun things like spins or names of objects? It doesn't take long to go through a meal and even if he just gets through half the meal, he can feed the rest and leave Otto be. Here and there he can walk by with something cool like a chicken nugget and toss it to Otto. Don't stop, don't stare, don't say a word, just do a drive-by fooding.







If you are nervous about handfeeding, you can leash Otto and hold him and James can toss the food. That's actually a great way to work on distance obedience, hand signals, etc. Obviously do what you are most comfortable with but I think dogs are okay with people handling their food so long as it is BEFORE the food hits the ground. Otto will probably just think a mile a minute trying to figure out how to earn his dinner from James. 

Good luck!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM Don't stop, don't stare, don't say a word, just do a drive-by fooding.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

food aggresion to another dog is normal in most cases--food aggression to ANY human in the home is a waay different thing.food aggression to a human IS TRUE aggression and needs to be changed.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Jenn we talked about this I think it all has to do with Morgan is DS1
person and Otto knows it.

I hope you can find a resolution


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:food aggresion to another dog is normal in most cases--food aggression to ANY human in the home is a waay different thing.food aggression to a human IS TRUE aggression and needs to be changed.


Disagree. It's just the dog saying "Ok I see person A/dog B as Y status, turn to page 58 of the 'Dog 101 Manual,' oh ok, so if A/B gets too close to my food, I gotta growl." It's not a "Cesar Millan Red Zone shoot the dog with a rocket launcher" thing but It DOES need to be addressed, won't argue there.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Betsy I would just keep your son out of the food area until he is older. There is just too much at risk and I woldnt want to push it.


 I'm with Betsy here. I do not believe that Otto will see your son as a higher pack member at this point, no matter how hard you push. I would leave Otto in peace to eat his food even if I had to feed him in crate to protect your son. 

Maybe everything is different now, but when I was a kid I knew exactly that I had a lower pack status than the dog. That's why he was trusted to protect me with his life, but I was not allowed to mess with his food and with his sleep. If I did I got corrected, not the dog


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Have to reply maybe I am sooo dumb or so uninformed I do not understand=what IS DS1 maybe a little crazy but sometimes feel maybe posters who are in the know should explain to idiots what DS1 means.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Maybe everything is different now, but when I was a kid I knew exactly that I had a lower pack status than the dog. That's why he was trusted to protect me with his life, but I was not allowed to mess with his food and with his sleep. If I did I got corrected, not the dog


LOL you have no idea how many corrections a day the boy needs.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogHave to reply maybe I am sooo dumb or so uninformed I do not understand=what IS DS1 maybe a little crazy but sometimes feel maybe posters who are in the know should explain to idiots what DS1 means.


Dear Son #1 - James. He has a brother who I often refer to as DS#2 or Boy2. There's nothing like 2 boys 15 months apart. Boy2 has slightly darker hair and is about 2" shorter. Clothes Boy1 out grows usually go directly into Boy2s draw. They like to switch jackets. So imagine if you're confused, how do I feel? Some days I just address them as Boy - whichever boy you are I don't care!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ttalldogHave to reply maybe I am sooo dumb or so uninformed I do not understand=what IS DS1 maybe a little crazy but sometimes feel maybe posters who are in the know should explain to idiots what DS1 means.
> ...










My dad referred to my sisters and me by #'s. We became Chase girls #'s 1 through 4. I ran in to some old friends of my parents several years ago back in the Seattle area, they couldnt remember my name......but they did remember my number LOL!!! Oh hi, you're Chase girl #3 arent you? Great Dad......Thanks!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Anyway, I ended up switching the dogs eating areas. James wanted to help and I thought he could feed Morgan but that didn't work out. 

Otto went in the pantry to eat. He looked a bit confused but he was hungry. 

I put Morgan under the table to eat rather than put her where Otto used to eat. 

The children were in the other room, I cooked dinner and all was peaceful. 

I think Otto knows I'm mad about this morning. He didn't try to join us while we ate. Morgan was pleased









Missy - I understand the wolfpack lower member dominance thing. There's a huge reason I feed the dogs before dinner - bloat. If they eat when I start cooking, they've had better than an hour to let their dinner settle before put them out after dinner. I have to have them out after dinner so they aren't under my feet while I'm getting the kids their toothbrushes, cleaning the table, sweeping the floor etc etc.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Betsy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah my Dad too. It wasn't until I had twins of my own that my mother happened to mention that Dad had always been called a combination of his name and his twin brothers. My grandparents ran a general store and since nobody could tell them apart, they called them both names.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

will exit with--MTDTP (maybe too dumb to post)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

IMHO, when a dog guards an object (from another dog, a cat, a human, a space alien) it's their way of saying "I am not comfortable with your intentions. I don't know what you are going to do and so I'm going to take the offensive and warn you off."

Personally, I like to deal with these situations in a totally hands off, non-confrontational method.

For example, Sasha is a food guarder. I feed everyone in my kitchen. Each dog has their own bowl and each bowl goes in a specific spot. The dogs know their spots and know that they are not allowed to surf other bowls until that dog is finished.

Well, everyone but Spike - he is just learning. So, when it's feeding time I have a plate of extra goodies set aside - right by Sasha's eating spot. If Spike runs over by her I am right there, tossing treats in her bowl while I show her that *I* will deal with the problem.

With Sasha it's still a work in progress because of her food obsession. With my other guys they simply step away from the bowl when Spike invades it and wait for ME to deal with him. They know I will AND they know they will get more food.

So - teach Otto that when James approaches his bowl while he's eating GOOD things happen. Have James toss pieces of something GREAT in the bowl - like chicken or hot dogs. NOT plain kibble - it should be a REALLY high value item.

The key is to get Otto to look forward to James approach while he's eating. After all, the kid tosses AWESOME things when he walks by!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:This morning, James (6 y/o) fed Otto (20months). He's been giving Otto his kibble for a few weeks now, my intention being Otto should start to see him as a higher level pack member. They have some other relationship issues that I'm working on with both of them.



"Most" dogs know that kids are below them and a weaker species.. Kids are not in control of themselves, don't carry themselves with authority and can not correct a dog the way they may need to be corrected.. 

Your male is starting to come into maturity..

I always cringe when I hear parents say the above and I'll leave it at that!!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina[Son #1 - James. He has a brother who I often refer to as DS#2 or Boy2. There's nothing like 2 boys 15 months apart.










My oldest boys are 15 months apart. DS 3 camw 18 months after DS2 and is 15 months older that DD! They were and are different as night and day too. Like an idiot I gaave all the boys J names too!







And DS 3 sometimes ate the dog's food out of his bowl. I think I growled more often than the dog some days!
It gets even crazier when they were all teens! Now all are in there early 20's and still home but life is much easier. Maybe that is why I like having two 9 month old pups!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg I always cringe when I hear parents say the above and I'll leave it at that!!


It's not that James is mean to him. He mostly ignores Otto or acts annoyed by him. Otto has a Brother Love personality and wants James' attention. James prefers Morgan's company - she's older, mature and doesn't do nutty things like Otto does. James doesn't play with him without prompting - unlike my younger son who loves to play ball with him or my daughter who's kissy lovey Otto would you like to color with me.

The boy and the dog are very similar kinetic personalities - they both need to be in the spotlight, both are willing to act up to get attention (negative attention is still attention).

When Otto walks James to school at noon time, it's getting better but there's much pulling and singing, although he's stopped trying to pull me down the stairs into the school or standing on the sidewalk yodeling. It's like when James goes to school, Otto sees the boy he desperately wants attention from leaving, even if only for a while and it makes him sad (becuase he's Brother Love)

Other than the recent growling witch concerns me, the relationship issues between James and Otto is mostly JAMES. I wish I could find something they both enjoyed doing together!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jenn, that was a really good explaination, and a very insightful way of seeing both boy and dog's energy being so similar. 

(On a side note, I swear, Otto







and Grimm







are behavioral clones! Charging after a loved one, yodeling with frustration, gravitating to someone seeming to withhold attention, etc. .. big silly crazy puppies!







)

I think you're doing an amazing job given a complex situation with two strong, active, intelligent, eager, strong-minded personalities. You're doing all you can to guide James. He's young, and honestly I believe he wants the situation to go well, too. If I had "a human version of Grimm" to walk Grimm with, gosh that'd be hard! They'd kinda feed off of eachother. I also think Grimm would be turning somersaults to get the human version of Grimmi's attention if it was ever withheld! I admire your determination in dealing with a complex situation with two personalities, with similar energies.

I wish I had great advice. I'm of course dealing with a 90 lb version of Otto, myself.







Maturity will help. But I think few trainers address things like very low arousal threshholds and relationships with a dog and child. Patricia McConnell on her site (otherendoftheleash) does discuss low arousal threshholds, low frustration tolerance, etc. I try to scope that site out when I can.

Sorry I haven't any words o' wisdom, just sending my admiration and appreciation for what you're working through your way!


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm e-mailing you Jenn!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Thanks, Jess!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangIMHO, when a dog guards an object (from another dog, a cat, a human, a space alien) it's their way of saying "I am not comfortable with your intentions. I don't know what you are going to do and so I'm going to take the offensive and warn you off."
> 
> Personally, I like to deal with these situations in a totally hands off, non-confrontational method.
> 
> ...


A great way to deal with it with a kid.

I'm old, my way has always been that it doesn't matter one bit what my intentions are when I approach your food or whether you are comfortable with it or not, the proper response is to leave your food to me immediately if you even think I might want it, not to guard it. Same goes for any other human.

And a growl or even a stiffening or eyeballing, gets a forceful response to prove this point. Nothing is my dogs possession, all things are my possessions, period.

Between the two dogs is a bit different, I let them eyeball and posture somewhat with each other, but if it goes past that they have to deal with the big angry bear and they both lose big.

I don't have kids, just nieces and nephews. When they were very little and my dog growled at them, for anything from approaching to grabbing at her, to getting near food, I used two means to fix it.

First any growling or aggression and I came down like ton of bricks, not even a lifted lip was acceptable. Better to worry more about what I would do, than what the kid will do.

Second, I had the kids feed her very tasty treats, all over the house, and when she was eating. I taught them to make her do something for each treat.

They all now have very fond memories of the dog they laid on, pulled on, played fetch with etc. followed them around all day and did all these neat tricks for them when it could have been the mean dog that growled and bit them instead.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:And a growl or even a stiffening or eyeballing, gets a forceful response to prove this point. Nothing is my dogs possession, all things are my possessions, period.


Two problems with this approach.

1 - there was a study done by a university (I'll find the link and post it) that proved that treating aggression issues in dogs with agressive tactics made the problems WORSE - not better.

2 - if a dog postures or vocalizes and you punish them you may end up inadvertently teach them to NOT posture or vocalize first and just go right for the BITE.

Dogs posture, vocalize and then bite. I would MUCH rather have a dog that growls first (whether the growl is warranted or not) than a dog that learned growling = punishment and goes right for the bite.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangI would MUCH rather have a dog that growls first (whether the growl is warranted or not) than a dog that learned growling = punishment and goes right for the bite.


As would I. Jess gave me some valid insight into what's going on with Otto. We're working those now.

Otto eats in the pantry now while Morgan eats right under the kitchen table (boost up for the Moon, she best not take my kindness for weakness!) The smallest member of the pack feeds him now if I don't.

Otto's had his walk James to school privileges cut way back. I'm a bit concerned he may see this as a job, lord knows the dog needs a job but that's MY job.

He's also been kicked off of my bed! He sleeps on the floor but jumps up to snuggle when my alarm goes off. Last sat. I wasn't in the mood to get up, he kept jamming his butt into my back so I pushed him off with my own butt. He's been much more gentle and respectful of bed privileges ever since!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> > Quote:And a growl or even a stiffening or eyeballing, gets a forceful response to prove this point. Nothing is my dogs possession, all things are my possessions, period.
> ...


Forceful does not always mean aggression, nor does it always mean punishment in the common sense of the term.

I simply do not allow possessiveness or aggression to be rewarded with success and thereby self reinforced, ever. Once a dog "tells" me it thinks something belongs to it in any manner it will be shown this is not the case as forcefully as is required, but no more.

I do not teach that growling is a problem, I try to teach that deciding that it owns something in the first place is the problem. 

I encourage my dogs to growl at me, growling is communication and I'm all for using every way a dog can communicate, I reward it. Believing it owns something in my world is a different matter entirely. If my dog won't growl at me there is a problem, and a lack of trust.

I encourage my dogs to use all their physical force against me as well, tugging, wrestling, growling and barking the whole time etc.. and even biting me to a point, but stopping when I say. I have also always been able to take anything from their mouth, or their food bowl, period. When I approach their bowl, they stop eating and back away.

That may be part of it more than I know, that in using all their physical force against me often in play, they realize that I am several times stronger than them and decide I'm not to be challenged. Who really knows.

All I know is I would not allow it, and if my dog did guard food I would remove him from it immediately so as not to allow self reinforcement, and begin to feed the dog differently, by hand, by hand in his bowl, holding onto anything he chews, etc. in order to impose the point that all food belongs to me and testing him until it was drilled in that all food belongs to me.

I am free to take anything from my dogs bowl, or mouth, I want to. Bone, toy, whatever without fear of being challenged for it. It does come in handy just for safety over a dog's lifetime.

In my experience, a dog that growls guarding a food bowl or anything else for that matter has already guarded with eyeballing and posturing previously, beginning with simply testing, and has been successful in his own mind, self reinforced this many times, and growling is simply an escalation of the rights of possession the dog has already established in his own mind through this process. 

Whether the human ever noticed this happening is another question, many are oblivious to it until they get growled at. But it can be trained and self reinforced into a real problem quite quickly, and quite inadvertently, as fast as any clicker training can reinforce a behavior.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I once had a 9 month old male GSD out of very tough German lines (son of the Seiger) and he had a real bone on the floor one night. I wanted to go out and needed to take the bone away from him so we could put him in his crate. When I reached down to take the bone, he didn't want to give it up and actually growled at me when I tugged on it. Without even thinking about it, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a big shake and growled "NO" back at him. He gave me the bone and never ever again growled or showed such behavior again. This is a dog who at 8-9 months was the toughest dog in a Sch club I belonged to in DE. (It wasn't a very good club but still ...)

What do you think I should have done when he growled - basically challenging me?


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

You got some great advise here, maybe it is the age too. My Bella also 20 months old just recently started guarding the food pantry, fridge and dirty dishes in the dish washer from her canine siblings only. When it happens I back her out and call Daisy over and let her in front. While scolding Bella to back off, now she still does it but without the growl. 
I actually thought the boys were the twins, now I see. Be careful with those two, Otto and James.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

codmaster said:


> When I reached down to take the bone, he didn't want to give it up and actually growled at me when I tugged on it. Without even thinking about it, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a big shake and growled "NO" back at him.


Personally, I think you may have just taught him to not verbalize his displeasure. Which could mean that next time me won't warn you first - he'll go right for the growl.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

HeidiW said:


> My Bella also 20 months old just recently started guarding the food pantry, fridge and dirty dishes in the dish washer from her canine siblings only. When it happens I back her out and call Daisy over and let her in front.


IMHO - *HUGE *mistake.

We humans CANNOT and SHOULD NOT try to make one dog be higher in the pack than the others. It can make for HUGE problems down the road.



> While scolding Bella to back off, now she still does it but without the growl.


Growling is the dogs way of communicating with each other (and us). If you stop the growl you don't necessarily stop the problem - you just push the dog to not verbally warn before they bite.

Look at it this way. Sasha is our food possessive dog. She is learning that she cannot 'guard' her food from the other dogs.

I give her a bone, Mauser walks over by her and she growls at him. I move it, take the bone from her and give it to Mauser.

What I've just done is show Sasha that is she GROWLS at Mauser I will take her item and give it to him.

Next time she won't growl (warn) him - she 'll go right to biting.

Here's how I do it. I am currently working with Sasha on this very issue.

When I feed her I stay by her bowl with a handful of treats. If one of the other dogs walks by and she doesn't vocalize at them (growl) - I drop a treat in her bowl.

I do the same thing when I hand out bones to everyone. Sasha will get extra treats if another dog is near her and she doesn't warn them off.

If she DOES complain I simply take away the bone. No emotions, no physical force. I put the bone AWAY - no-one else gets it.

That way the only thing she is learning is that when she growls (and it doesn't matter at who) - she loses her bone.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Personally, I think you may have just taught him to not verbalize his displeasure. Which could mean that next time me won't warn you first - he'll go right for the growl.


Actually what it taught him was that he was NEVER to show agression when I reached to take something away from him. And as I said above, he never did repeat the behavior with me or any one else. I would say it was a lesson that he learned very well.
And probably also showed him that, despite what some people think, that he wasn't the dominant thing in our house. The incident also scared the heck out of my wife who had never seen Fritz growl at anything before that.

We also taught him that if I or someone else took something from him, that he would soon recieve something else in return.

We have never had a dog among the 6/7 GSD's that we have owned that we allowed to show any food/toy aggression mainly because we have had small children around for most of the years and could not afford to have a dog like that. We have a number of pictures of our small son sitting next to the dog bowl feeding our two GSD's a piece at a time.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> IMHO - *HUGE *mistake.
> 
> We humans CANNOT and SHOULD NOT try to make one dog be higher in the pack than the others. It can make for HUGE problems down the road.
> 
> ...


Aren't you teaching her that if she GROWLS she loses her bone, so next time she doesn't growl - she just goes to biting?


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Yea true, they need to growl. Dog communications. Bella only guards these three places when I open them, I did not think she is food aggressive, she does not growl at any other time not even with her dog bowl or food or bones. So I thought if Daisy got to go in front and all was fine Bella would see Daisy is not a threat. I really don't know for sure what she thinks but she stopped growling and she still races to it to be first dog in line. I have to say the other two now let her. So maybe she got thru to them and I think I got thru to her!!!


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Actually what it taught him was that he was NEVER to show agression when I reached to take something away from him. And as I said above, he never did repeat the behavior with me or any one else. I would say it was a lesson that he learned very well.
> And probably also showed him that, despite what some people think, that he wasn't the dominant thing in our house. The incident also scared the heck out of my wife who had never seen Fritz growl at anything before that.
> 
> We also taught him that if I or someone else took something from him, that he would soon recieve something else in return.
> ...


You were right IMO. my GSD growled at me over a bone when he was 4 mo old....I do think that set a bad attitude in him. I wish i woudnt have backed down, he did get the idea that he could intimidate people. 
He growled at my gfriend, too when she played in his food, she was picking up pieces of kibble nd feeding it to him trying to be nice. Now, if she hadnt known him......but he knew her very well. He growled, she asked me why. 
I say, from experience, from the start DO not let a puppy get away with intimidating behavior. JMO and from experience. 
These dogs are smart and know what theyre doing.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I think while it possible punishing a dog for growling and guarding food that the dog might take it as a lesson just not to growl, most are intelligent enough to realize it is for guarding, not growling. It likely depends more on the form and timing etc. of punishment.

I've never seen a dog that took the lesson as only not to growl, they all figured out it was to not guard. But in the end it's up to the dog.

The dog could also intensify it's guarding aggression for a time as dogs will often do so before behavior extinguishes, especially if he has been successful with it for some time.

It's not a problem I have ever had with any of my dogs, only with dogs I have kept for others. A problem that was usually fixed easily enough by making sure guarding got the opposite result from what the dog though it would.


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