# someone to test my dog - possibly a Schutz person?



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

HI there,

I got an idea this morning that I'm going to run by you for "good idea" "bad idea" input first. If you think it's a good idea, please then help me with following through.

My male was other-dog aggressive, territorially fence possessed to the point of almost being demonic ... he was definitely scary. He bit a man once on the hand, a puncture, hit and retreat no attack. When explaining what happened to the vet, the police, my hubby and other dog people more experienced than me, they all agreed in his mind he was protecting me. He has previously been reactive to people staring him in the face, including small children under about age 6 - eye level size kids, ya know? He once lunged at a 2yo but he didn't make contact. I'm not sure to this day if what he did was actually being reactive or just his strong way of wanting to play.

Anyway, after two years of sweat and expensive training, many buckets of tears, fear he was really going to hurt someone, fear of losing my dog, fear that I'd have to live w/him this way forever and fear of a bunch of other stuff ... we found out he has hypothyroidism. He's been on meds for about 8 weeks now, on retest levels are normal. He'll be retested every 6mos (my choice - not taking any chances).

I've loosened up some but do not have total trust yet, he's a much nicer guy to be around. Quite a bit has changed about him in a good way. I am seriously considering the fact that now he's "just a German Shepherd"







and that they have protective & other type quirks my other dogs never had.

Now for my idea ... I know I very much need to gain more trust in him. I don't feel anyone should have 100% trust in any dog that they will never bite. I would settle for about 95% or so. I still get a little antsy when he approaches someone but he's so far not shown one iota of aggression toward anyone he's met but we are not letting him near little children.

I cannot seem to gain the much needed trust on my own. So, my idea is to find a person and I'm thinking Schutz person because to my knowledge they have bite protection clothing and know enough about dogs and their signals to know what's going on with him when maybe I don't. I don't really know the best way to do this, but my thought is to do a few scenarios (maybe a half hour's worth or so?) of meet & greets, someone posing a threat to me (in protective clothing) and my biggest thing that I don't have a clue how to safely do is to test him around the little ones. Any other tests you feel appropriate I'm open to. Oh, one would be for the person to approach in a couple ways that he's been reactive to in the past to see what he does now.

What I'm hoping will come of this is that he will act appropriately in all situations and that this will help me gain some trust.

So, what do you think? Am I nuts? If anyone can and is willing to help me with this, I'm in SE Wisconsin and available most mornings and can make some varied arrangements on my days off work. I can pay a little bit for this but I'm by far not rich. Feel free to PM me if you'd like. Thanks for listening to this possibly crazy woman. I really just do not want to live the rest of our lives together with this uneasiness I have because I know that can be a trigger. It's also not fun to feel like this and be somewhat afraid to have your dog be around other people. I would very much like to get comfortable with him doing so.

Oh, he can now be around other dogs, but being it's just usually him and me, I limit this probably more than I need to. He's been in a group of dogs twice about 25-30 of them with no bad happenings. Little dogs I think are still prey for him. Thank you for any input!


----------



## eddye mack (May 29, 2009)

Hello:
I had a german shepherd that was very protective. The problem was that when she was a puppy, this vet told us to keep her away from other dogs because she could pick up different things. Very bad mistake ! They need to socialize at an early age and be with other dogs. She was so protective that when I took her to the vet (a new vet I may add) that I had to hand him the leash and then she was fine. Did your dog socialize when he was young? I don't think that having a person in a suit is your answer. That dog can sense if you are not 100% relaxed and calm. I think that you should get some CD's from CM or somebody else and try to rectify the problem that way. Who diagnosed hypothroidism? German Shepherds are the greatest dogs in the world. You must exercise them daily. Good luck to Riley and you!!

ed


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Socialization is not the issue. I don't need to spend any more money on training things ... I know that the dog can sense my energy. I don't think you're understanding my request but thank you for your input.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I cannot imagine how you can test your dog. I have the a gentle l rescue, the most gentle I have ever fostered, except for one thing. The dog goes nuts when a strange dog walks by, and her strongest desire is to attack. Her most recent, after she broke her jaw on a lab, was attacking a pit bull. My point is simple, despite the training and rehab, I could never trust her off leash. I could take her to a trainer I deal with, but 95 percent of the time, the dog might be perfect.

Perhaps you should ask the trainer you have most recently dealt with, instead of asking a question that is almost impossible for anyone that has never met the dog to answer.

As for the protective gear, I suspect you know your trainer is quite willing to do this.


----------



## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Riley's Mom -

How great that you found a treatable, physical reason behind some of the agression you were seeing. I think we discount medical issues too much. You've done a wonderful job of working with your dog.

Do you have a GSD Club in your area? I think that temperament testing would be exactly what you are looking for. A lot of clubs offer this periodically to the public.

There will be a lot of different scenarios, including 'bad guys' in protective clothing, strolling people, perhaps someone suddently opening an umbrella, etc.

Several people on this board have posted about TT. I think that good reactions to a series of variuos and possibly stressful situations could go a long way toward your peace of mind.

I agree that you should never let your guard down completly, as none of us with any dog should. It would be interesting to know how your boy does now that he feels much better.

Good luck!


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Hmmm, never thought of temperament testing ... that might just be what I need, in fact I think you are probably right on!

There is a club over in the next county, and I can look more for the club type thing elsewhere now that I know what I'm looking for thanks to your direction









Thanks also for the compliment







and I'll prolly drive people nuts with my "have you had his/her thyroid tested?" I think I'm possessed or something. It's just plain impressive what one simple test and meds can do for a dog in situations like mine. I could very easily have lost him had he kept going in the direction he was going.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1As for the protective gear, I suspect you know your trainer is quite willing to do this.


I did already think of this, but no I don't know for sure that Frank has this equipment. However, I feel strongly this has to be someone Riley doesn't already know. 

From what I've seen of regular temperament testing (which is quite limited), they don't go this far into it or in that direction. They're more day to day issues the dog would encounter on a regular basis and that's what I want to know the absolute most because that's what's so important not only for him but at this point I think more for me. I really need to totally get rid of the apprehension feelings I get. I try, but can't quite seem to let go totally and that's just not good enough.

But looks like some places do include this in their testing according to Bonnie's post


----------



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Unfortunately if the dog DOES show aggression on the TT, they may excuse you so you wouldn't get to finish it. You're also not allowed to correct so if he does react you wouldn't be able to correct him.

When I did my TT, the "friendly stranger" walked up and just wrapped her arms around my dog's necks. No warning, no letting the dog sniff them first. My dogs didn't react but I could see it being very dangerous with the wrong dog. 
They do ask about your dog's temperament and if it's ever bitten anyone before on the entry form but there's not a ton of detail. 
You could let them know your dog has been known to be aggressive and ask them to be careful, maybe they would let you use it as a training session?

Have you checked the Schh USA or WDA websites for clubs in your area? You could call up the TD's and ask if they could help you with something like this. Most of the trainers I know would be willing to help out.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Bonnie, I doubt a dog's aggression or misbehavior is a physical thing. Of course it is possible but in my opnion rare.

I am headed out of town tomorrow, and take pills for high blood pressure. While packing my pills I look at the prescriptions I have for my rescue dogs. All are for aggression and/or high anxiety.

The dog's names are Bella, the subject of numerous posts, Country, a dog adopted by a lady doctor from San Francisco, and Hogan, the best puppy I have ever fostered. All were on drugs, and now off.

Riley's mom mentioned a guy named Frank, whom I have worked with and told me drugging these dogs was just stupid. All three are now off meds and are doing very well. 

Please rethink your opinion. There is no reason these dogs should have been drugged. 

As for Riley's mom, she needs to respect one person, trainer or behavorist. I hope things work well for her, but drugging the dog is not the answer.


----------



## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Timber1, I'm sorry that you do not recognize that just as people can have physical issues that affect their behavior, animals can also.

I do not consider treating an ailment 'drugging." A behaviorist is not to person to determine medical issues. Thyroid issues and other medically confirmed ailments are real. Witholding valid treatment is inhumane.

Can a dog be overmedicated? Of course - there are bad vets just as there are bad doctors. That's why we change vets until we get a good one.

I have read your posts about animal behavior, medical issues and trainers and I am more than OK with you disagreeing with me.

Rileys mom has worked hard with her dog - I wish her continued success.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Timber1 - what I want to do has absolutely nothing to do with respect or disrespect for Frank. Frank's methods are helping me, I have no desire to go elsewhere. 

I think you may be misunderstanding what I want to do. It's just a test, not training with another trainer. I don't want Frank to test because he knows Riley, so it would not be an accurate test and therefore a waste of everyone's time and my money of which there is a ton of invested in this dog already. Much more than anyone should EVER have to invest in a dog ... literally an insane amount of money over a behavior issue - not cancer, not some deadly disease that one would pay this kind of money to try to keep their dog alive.

This is about strangers, not familiar people and about helping ME gain more trust and being comfortable with how my dog is probably going to react in a number of situations. With all I've been through with him it's impossible for me to blindly trust, I need help with that in order to help my dog and me. I'm sick to death of being fearful to take him places he COULD normally go if he didn't have the history he has. This may be fixed now that his thyroid levels are normal and I need to know that he will be safe around people (well, as safe as any normal dog). It's not doing either him or me any good for me to be so uneasy and have so much trouble forgetting what he's done in the past. He deserves to be trusted if he can be and I desperately need some peace of mind. No amount of training is going to give me this. 

Being respectful of any person does not mean one must follow their word like they are a God. I know Frank's stand on this and he is certainly entitled to it. I on the other hand have my own opinion and belief which I'm entitled to. In both cases "that's ok" other than the fact that dogs that physically need presription medication aren't going to get what they need with people following the "it's crazy to drug a dog" opinion. That to me is very wrong and is neglecting the dog's basic health needs because someone doesn't believe that dogs can have health issues that need medication. 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on 'drugging' a dog. My dogs are not being drugged. They have a physical condition that requires medication so they can be healthy. They thyroid meds do not drug the dog, they repair the problem by supplementing what the thyroid is not producing on it's own - not any different than you taking your high blood pressure meds. They don't affect your personality, don't make you groggy or goofy. They help you live a more normal live and live longer. Without this medication, my dog's thyroids were being eaten away from what I read in all the medical information on thyroid dysfunction. People suffer from it, too, I work with a gal who has it. If it's ok for you to take high blood pressure meds, why can't your dogs take prescription meds for their ailments? If they were children, you could be charged with withholding vital medical care.

Have you read up on thyroid dysfunctions? I don't mean to sound mean, nasty or disrespectful but you and I have both posted on other posts where this topic has come up and it seems you just will not believe that this is a medical condition, it's not behavioral but it causes behaviorial problems that no amount of training is going to be able to stop. A dog displaying abherant/aggressive behavior due to thyroid issues is NEVER going to be safe no matter how much or what kind of training it has. There are a few people who thought I was crazy getting his thyroid checked pretty much for the same reason you say ... they don't believe an itty bitty dysfunctional thyroid can cause the behavioral issues that it does ... they were .. they are ... wrong. Some were just shocked that the dysfunctional thyroid was at the root of his problems.

I am sooooooo sorry I did not follow the suggestion of the person who originally brought this up as a possibility probably a year or more ago. I could have saved myself so much heartache and expense.

I know you have at least one dog that your vet says doesn't think it's behavioral issues are a thyroid problem. My vet didn't think so either, but I didn't care. I'd done my homework and I know my dog better than my vet does. I made an appt anyway, I made the arrangements to have the blood sent to Hemopet instead of a local lab, they drew the blood and sent it out and gee ... lo and behold I have two dogs with hypothyroidism. Imagine their surprise! This isn't the first time I've insisted on something they felt wasn't necessary and found out ... yup it was. If I'm paying for some test for my dog that they don't think he/she needs and I do .... they darn well better do what I want or I'll be finding a new vet. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong and I can at least have the peace of mind that I did every single thing I could to help my dog.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: phgsdUnfortunately if the dog DOES show aggression on the TT, they may excuse you so you wouldn't get to finish it. You're also not allowed to correct so if he does react you wouldn't be able to correct him.


Hmm, that might not be a bad thing. Might even be better because then he can be himself.



> Quote:When I did my TT, the "friendly stranger" walked up and just wrapped her arms around my dog's necks. No warning, no letting the dog sniff them first. My dogs didn't react but I could see it being very dangerous with the wrong dog.


Oh you've got that right! 



> Quote:They do ask about your dog's temperament and if it's ever bitten anyone before on the entry form but there's not a ton of detail. You could let them know your dog has been known to be aggressive and ask them to be careful, maybe they would let you use it as a training session?


Ok.



> Quote:Have you checked the Schh USA or WDA websites for clubs in your area? You could call up the TD's and ask if they could help you with something like this. Most of the trainers I know would be willing to help out.


I found one GSD club so far and have sent off a contact from their web site. I haven't heard back from them yet. What's a TD and what's a WDA?


----------



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Here is a link to the WDA club list site:
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/clubs.htm

It is another schutzhund/breed organization.

And here is the USA site's list.
http://germanshepherddog.com/clubs/index.htm

TD = training director


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Timber1,

I do not understand what your aversion is to a dog having a chemical imbalance that can be corrected by medication. No one with a dog with a thyroid problem thinks giving the meds to bring the dogs level back in balance is drugging or a quick fix. 

Please remember that this is a public forum and some times your experiences are probably unique to you and your dog(s), it is unwise to blanket statement things like dogs don't need or benefit from thyroid medication or any other medication. 

Training is good, but if a dog is helped by getting their chemicals levels back in balance it can only enhance the training that the dog receives. 

Riley's Mom, there are two SchH clubs in Northern IL. I have been to one and not the other but you might want to give them a call and see if you can get a private evaluation of you and Riley. The situation is problably a combination of the two of your just not communication well. It might be a leadership thing, where Riley feels stronger than you and you need to change a few things to make your position and communication clear to him.

Val


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I had a chow who at about the age of 8 developed a great fear of thunder. _Up to this time a storm never bothered her and in fact several times wanted to stay out in the cool rain and had to be dragged into the house._ About six months later during a routine checkup I mentioned to the vet that I was worried that she was becoming senile because every time a storm began brewing she would hide under the furniture and once tried to squeeze between the toilet and the wall. She was also getting cranky with the other dogs even though they were not playing with her but just passing by. Through her testing it was discovered that her thyroid was malfunctioning and the vet mentioned that might be at least part of her problem. Several months after beginning her medication she stopped hiding during storms, became friendlier with the other dogs, and became her old outgoing self again. And no I won't say the medication was drugging her into a stupor where noise or activity no longe botherd her as she once again began running and playing chase with the others, ran around and played with me in the yard, and once again wanted to go on walks and car rides.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Bonnie, I doubt a dog's aggression or misbehavior is a physical thing. Of course it is possible but in my opnion rare.


I disagree:

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/behaviorandthyroid.htm



> Quote:Tables 1 and 2 summarize results of complete thyroid diagnostic profiling on 634 canine cases of aberrant behavior, compiled by the authors in collaboration with Drs. Nicholas Dodman, and Jean DeNapoli of Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine, North Grafton, MA.
> 
> *Ninety percent (568 dogs) were purebreds and 10% were mixed breeds.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dodds on Thyroid Disease:

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/Dodds%20on%20thyroid.pdf




> Quote:An association between behavioral and psychologic changes and thyroid dysfunction has been recognized in humans since the 19th century. In a recent study, 66% of people with attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder were found to be hypothyroid, and supplementing their thyroid levels was largely curative. Furthermore, an association has recently been established between aberrant behavior and thyroid dysfunction in the dog, and has been noticed in cats with hyperthyroidism.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training: Etiology and assessment of behavior problems
By Steven R. Lindsay
Edition: illustrated
Published by Wiley-Blackwell, 2001

http://books.google.com/books?id=-aAhFDe...num=6#PPA232,M1

The link takes you to page 232. Check out the last couple paragraphs on that page.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Thanks for the reply. Thyroid issues and several other possible medical conditions, yes I have read upon them, taken the advice of some others, and none of the four I have had were diagnosed with any health issues. And as you can imagine, for a resuce group with limited funds, having all this stuff come up negative?; suffice it to say we are not rich. 

You mentioned testing, and I have no idea how to do that. I have one dog that has knocked down joggers and we are working with him. I have another, a rescue I am fostering that after breaking her jaw and losing her top two canine teeth, still wants to attrack strange dogs and did so while under my care. One week after going of soft food she attacked a Pit Bull. Thank god, the Pit was friendly and this incident is the subject of a prior post. At htis point no one, on this board or even the folks that work with the police departments can figure out why her only goal in life is to attack strange dogs.

As for our frequent E mails and differing opinions. It is clear you have done a great job with your dog, and gone to great efforts to help the dog. 

I agree with you, that Frank is probably not the right person to test the dog for the reasons you mentioned. He is a great trainer, but knows the dog and his location is not the best for testing. However, I wonder if the testing is worth it. For example, my dog attacked a few joggers and that is a long story. How do a test? Or do a just take more control of the dog and try and make him settle a bit more.

Finally, do me a favor and let me know the precise thyroid results. I have never heard of hemopet. My understanding is the best and most comprehensive testing, albeit expensive, is at the University of Michigan lab.


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I can easily see how a competent "helper" can safely test this dog and gauge his reactions in different circumstances. It would take a very competent helper but I think I understand what the OP is referring to by "testing".

What I *think* they mean is to have a person that the dog has never met their dog to test them in real type, everyday situations but in a safe and controlled environment. Something so that the OP can see if there has been improvement and also so that she can gain some confidence in him after their rough past and a way to judge how far they have come but also expose some things they may still need to work on. I agree with her to have a dog tested and evaluated in such a manner would require a person that dog has never met. I would think that to run the test in a new location for the dog would be the only way to know for certain. The controlled environment would set the dog up to succeed (if done properly) but to actually be able to see the TRUE dog which would possibly be different if he was tested in a familiar environment from a known helper.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Bonnie, I doubt a dog's aggression or misbehavior is a physical thing. Of course it is possible but in my opnion rare.
> 
> I am headed out of town tomorrow, and take pills for high blood pressure. While packing my pills I look at the prescriptions I have for my rescue dogs. All are for aggression and/or high anxiety.
> 
> ...


Bella was on thyroid hormones not to drug her, but to fix a _physical condition_, not so different from our BP meds. Her levels were off. We have been through this on the rescue board with her before when your trainer decided to play vet and take her off the meds without testing. Has Bella had any follow-up testing? If not, then she is being neglected, and it's wrong. SOME dogs, when given better food and become healthier, have a thyroid that recovers, but those are dogs that are suffering either from malnutrition or other illness. Those cases are rare, and need to be monitored. In most dogs, hormone replacement is life long. Arbitrarily taking a dog off of thyroid supplement because it doesn't fit in with your philosophy or your trainer's philosophy is irresponsible and does a dissservice to the dog, and certainly harm to her health.

Lauri posted ample evidence that "thyroid aggression" is a known form of aggression. A lot of dogs could be helped if hack trainers, and even some hack vets, would better recognize this phenomenon.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Finally, do me a favor and let me know the precise thyroid results. I have never heard of hemopet. My understanding is the best and most comprehensive testing, albeit expensive, is at the University of Michigan lab.


Hemopet is Dodds' Animal Blood Bank actually. Hemolife I guess is the diagnostic division. The benefit of going through Dodds is a quicker turnaround time, but more importantly, she has a vast database of breed and age information, so she can give a better idea of what normal _should be_ for the dog in question. For example, there should be differences in the values of a young GSD and a young sighthound, and also differences between a young GSD and an older GSD. I'm not sure if all tests are done in-house or if some of them are sent out. It's not really the lab here that is the benefit, but the expertise of the interpretation -- most vets, and cleary LOTS of trainers don't know enough about thyroid imbalance. 

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: someone to test my dog - possibly a Schutz per*

Surely Timber has heard of Dr. Jean Dodds?!?!?! 

And nobody is talking about giving a dog thyroid meds for aggression. They're talking about giving a dog thyroid meds for a _thyroid problem_, which can sometimes also help with a form of aggression brought on by a thyroid imbalance. It's nothing more than a potential positive side effect of a drug the dog needs anyway. Don't really get why anyone would find that at all controversial.


----------



## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: someone to test my dog - possibly a Schutz per*



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> And nobody is talking about giving a dog thyroid meds for aggression. They're talking about giving a dog thyroid meds for a _thyroid problem_, which can sometimes also help with a form of aggression brought on by a thyroid imbalance. It's nothing more than a potential positive side effect of a drug the dog needs anyway. Don't really get why anyone would find that at all controversial.


YES!!! exactly







Thanks Lisa for your posts re thyroid issues as well.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: someone to test my dog - possibly a Schutz per*

This is a really helpful and enlightening thread! 

TJ's post (ILGHAUS) is a great one. An otherwise healthy Chow at age 8 has one odd fear response to a thunderstorm, the first ever-- and TJ mentions it to the vet, vet checks thyroid levels.. and something is off! That is amazing to me, that thyroid can manifest in behavior issues. We just don't think about this much... but we should. 

Could thyroid (hypo) effect doggy reactivity?


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I have never heard of hemopet.


It is Dr. Dodds group and Dr. Dodds is considered one of the foremost authorities on thyroid issues in dogs:



> Quote:The main reason for sending Dr. Jean Dodds / HEMOPET the blood samples instead of having the testing done locally, is that HEMOPET is the only group routinely offering expert clinical interpretive diagnostic comments that take into account the age, sex, and breed type of the animal. This often means an expected normal reference range for an individual pet that differs from the test lab's generic broad reference range. Practitioners usually are unaware of these differences, which have been established by published research and Dr. Dodds' many years (44 years this year- 2008) of clinical and research experience.


And they are the LEAST expensive testing around - for $95 you get a full CBC (with differential), a Chemistry Panel AND T3, T4, free T3, free T4 and TGAA thyroid testing.

Or just the 5 way Thyroid for $65.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/2009%20Test%20Request%20Form%20HEMOLIFE.pdf


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

They are even beginning to see a correlation between thyroid levels and aggression/behavioral issues in humans:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19435...Pubmed_RVDocSum


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lauri, you find the coolest links.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If you ever want to bring him to our place to play with our gang (just the two big ones) just let me know. I'm also home during the day.









As for testing him - I'd give it a little more time. He's only been on the meds for 2 months. Seeing that his thyroid was not right for much longer and that he had a big issue to overcome - I'd give him a few more months before I worried about testing him.

I'd keep doing what you are doing. Restrict his interaction with kids and try to get him to meet one new dog-savvy person each week.

I don't think I'd push the 'protecting Mom' scenario on him just yet.


----------



## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Val,

I am suprised you took my reply out of context. Incuding in my response was the following.

"I doubt a dog's aggression or misbehavior is a physical thing. Of course it is possible."

I never implied a physical condition could not be an issue. I just added it has been rare in my experience with rescue dogs.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Timber1, 

Has Bella been retested recently?


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I obviously agree that Hemopet is THE place to send the blood, which is why I had ours sent there. I wanted the very best analyzing my dog's blood. 

As medical costs go, I don't consider it expensive. The initial test total cost $135 per dog which included the labwork at Hemopet and my vet's cost to draw the blood and ship it out. The retests were $85 per dog, all costs listed above included. 

*Cassidys Mom* - right on with your explanation, thanks!

*Skye's Mom* hit the nail on the head when she suggested that what I really want is a temperament test but didn't call it that. I want to see how he reacts in various every day type situations and some not so every day that temperament testing provides. I can't just take him downtown Main st and start asking people to participate. His behavior definitely has changed for the better, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take a chance putting the public in potential danger. People who do temperament testing would be a safer environment to do this in. 

*Patti:* Yes, can make for a more reactive dog which is what I had.

*Amaruq:* exactly right, thank you.

I found out a local club will be having temp testing in September, so I will be applying to be one of the participants. Thanks so much for the suggestion *Skye's Mom*! I would never had known where to go for this had you not told me.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Timber1 - maybe your rescue already has this but if you don't perhaps you can find a vet that is willing to give you reduced rates since you are a rescue and have to bring many dogs in for vetting. If you already have something in place, it might not be a bad idea to check around - you may be getting a good deal, but maybe you can get a better one elsewhere. I think I remember you mentioning that your vet didn't feel one or more of your dogs were a candidate for thyroid testing. My vet didn't think so either, but I wasn't going to take any chances.

When a rescue rehomes a dog, doesn't the adoption fee reflect any specialized vet services that were performed while in their care? Can they not recoup their expenses (at least to some degree) that way? Perhaps you could get some of your volunteers to get more into fund raising activities? If you don't currently do so, there are many dog related products you could sell off your web site as an affiliate. Just a few suggestions that might help bring in some funds.

Obviously, not every dog your rescue takes in needs to be tested but you've mentioned one or two that I would definitely do.

I do hope that you will put the other dogs back on the meds they were taken off of if they were thyroid related. As someone mentioned, it's not a "round of meds and your done" like an anti-biotic. It's a lifetime of daily (very inexpensive) medication.

Unless you have the dogs tested you don't know if their issues may or may not be medically related so it's really not an accurate statement that "I never implied a physical condition could not be an issue. I just added it has been rare in my experience with rescue dogs."

As high as the potential is for a GSD to have thyroid dysfunction, and you've had 4 dogs tested for it I think I understood you to say and the test results were negative ... I'm assuming you just had your vet send the blood to a local lab. I would have them send it to Hemopet. You're going to get much more accurate results. 

If these four dogs were displaying any inappropriate aggression I have my doubts that all four could be truly negative. I have two dogs, completely different personalities. Both displayed symptoms of thyroid problems but their symptoms were different. 

To me the odds are against those results being accurate based pretty much on the percentage of odds only and the little twinge in my gut. You had 4 dogs tested all negative, I have two dogs tested both positive. I'm betting at least one of your four threw a false negative or the lab work wasn't accurate.

You also might have a vet that isn't as educated in thyroid disease as he/she could be and/or of a mind that thyroid and aggression aren't related or something like that. Just a few possibilities.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang If you ever want to bring him to our place to play with our gang (just the two big ones) just let me know. I'm also home during the day.


Thanks, I just might take you up on that.







and I agree ONLY the big ones, LOL!



> Quote:As for testing him - I'd give it a little more time. He's only been on the meds for 2 months. Seeing that his thyroid was not right for much longer and that he had a big issue to overcome - I'd give him a few more months before I worried about testing him.


Right now I have one in my general area in September which is when I planned on doing this, do ya think that's enough time?



> Quote:I'd keep doing what you are doing. Restrict his interaction with kids and try to get him to meet one new dog-savvy person each week.


If I had a place to do this, it would be great, but I don't know of any in our area. Absolutely no dog parks, that's to uncontrolled and dangerous and from what I know of the people that go to our local park, they are NOT dog savvy at all. My sister helped out once with some walk-bys the house and we got her golden lab and my Riley on leashes probably about 6-8 ft away from one another and Riley did not seem like he wanted to kill her dog. One of the biggest problems is that I have no one that I can work regularly with. It's all hit & miss and here & there with weeks and months in between. I could take him to his trainers place every day if I wanted to, but with working about 110-120hrs per week, and the distance away to the trainer (an hour one way), it just isn't something I can do regularly. They have some special activities coming up soon that I hope to be able to attend, though.



> Quote:I don't think I'd push the 'protecting Mom' scenario on him just yet.


I'm more interested in other scenarios than I am about that, but it *is* important because of a few incidents that happened last summer that we don't want to ever see a repeat performance on which involved over-protecting me.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> "I doubt a dog's aggression or misbehavior is a physical thing. Of course it is possible."
> 
> I never implied a physical condition could not be an issue. I just added it has been rare in my experience with rescue dogs.


Did you even LOOK at the links I posted or read the info I quoted? 

The study done by *Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine* found:



> Quote:*Thyroid dysfunction was found in *62% of the aggressive dogs*, 77% of seizuring dogs, 47% of fearful dogs, and 31% of hyperactive dogs.


62% says it's more than just "possible".



> Quote:*Outcomes of treatment intervention with standard twice daily doses of thyroid replacement were evaluated in 95 cases.


So they took 95 dogs and gave them thyroid meds and this is what happened:



> Quote:58 dogs had greater than 50% improvement in their behavior as judged by a predefined 6-point subjective scale (34 were improved >75%), and another 23 dogs had >25 but <50% improvement. Only 10 dogs experienced no appreciable change, and 2 dogs had a worsening of their behavior.


*60%* of the dogs treated improved more than 50% and half of those had more than 75% improvement.

I'd say that is a significant percentage.

Only 12% of the dogs did not improve.


Here's the kicker:



> Quote:When compared to 20 cases of dominance aggression treated with conventional behavioral or other habit modification over the same time period, only 11 dogs improved >25% and of the remaining 9 cases, 3 failed to improve and 3 were euthanized or placed in another home.


So only *50%* of the non-medicated dogs improved and improved less than the medicated dogs.


And the most important part:



> Quote:These initial results are so promising that complete thyroid diagnostic profiling and treatment with thyroid supplement, where indicated, is warranted for all cases presenting with aberrant behavior.


So, *Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine* is saying that dogs that show aggression should be thyroid tested.

Sorry to hijack your thread, RM but I think it's VERY important for anyone with an aggressive dog that may read this to know they NEED to have the dog's thyroid tested.


----------



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Most definitely. I actually think it should be a matter of routine vet care for any dog on the list of those prone to thyroid dysfunction. Why wait until your dog gets aggressive or bites someone? If I'd have been more aware, I would have had it done much sooner.


----------

