# 5 Week Old Foster Questions



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

My friend is fostering two 5 week old puppies, and I am helping her. The humane society she is fostering them through is completely worthless. I despise that rescue. Anyway, because they are so bad, we have quite a few questions that they are unable to answer or they give us answers that are completely wrong and frankly dangerous.

My questions are as follows:

*Is it safe for the puppies to go outside in our fenced backyard?* My friend feeds the squirrels and mice back there (yes, I know. I can't convince her to stop) and I have for a fact seen raccoons and raccoon poop in the yard as well. The puppies clearly are not well vaccinated, if at all. So, is it safe for them or should we just keep them inside?

*Should we free-feed?* Another set of fosters that have two of their litter mates told us that they were told by the rescue to free-feed their pups. The puppies that they foster are MUCH bigger than the two siblings that we foster. So much so that no one thought they could possibly be from the same litter. Is that because they get fed so much food?

A spin-off from the previous question:
The fosters for the litter mates said that their puppies are completely potty trained (at 5 weeks? Really? I think not) and that they are incredibly calm and never bark or whine. They claim it is because their puppies get more food. Could that be true? It doesn't seem healthy to me.

At 5 weeks old, one puppy obsessively humps his litter mates. I have never seen a puppy that young do that. *Why would this be? Is that normal for that age?*

The same puppy that humps seems overly physical with his sister. He latches onto her throat, ear, leg, etc. and thrashes his head from side to side in what I call the "kill-move." She screams her head off and he just keeps going. We have to separate them, and when we do, he turns and latches onto our hands or arms and snarls and growls up a storm, almost like he's redirecting that "aggression." *Is this behavior normal?*

Thanks in advance. These puppies are crazy, and my friend keeps repeating that she had no idea what she was getting into. I tried to tell her! :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Young puppies eat around the clock, the milk bar is never closed. Even during weaning they go to their mom to supplement between feedings.

Humping could be stress.

What kind of puppies are these? I find the dog aggressive behavior very disturbing but it can be normal for many bully breeds or terriers. It is not unusual for those breeds for the puppies to have to be separated from each other at an early age.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Yep, you guessed it. Bully breed mixes.

So we should be free-feeding them? One thing I really dislike about this rescue is that we are given so little information, and the other fosters for their siblings are given completely different information. We were told to only feed them three meals and that's it. The other fosters were told to give them food every time the bowl is empty. We were told the puppies are 5 weeks, and the other fosters were told they are 7 weeks. Oh boy.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Any tips on if we should take them outside or not?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Classic example of the genetics of behavior.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I wouldn't take them outside until they're around 8 weeks. Puppies that young are much to young to be roaming around outside. I would just focus on them being around each other for warmth and comfort. As for free feeding, I don't know much about raising puppies before 7 weeks without the mother, so I don't have any suggestion for that.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

McGloomy said:


> I wouldn't take them outside until they're around 8 weeks. Puppies that young are much to young to be roaming around outside. I would just focus on them being around each other for warmth and comfort. As for free feeding, I don't know much about raising puppies before 7 weeks without the mother, so I don't have any suggestion for that.


Oh, thanks for reminding me to add this info.

If we do take them outside, they will either be on a leash, which is what the humane society suggested, or in an x-pen. We won't let them have access to the whole yard. That sounds like trouble!

Thanks for your input.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Hopefully these pictures aren’t too big. I’m on my phone, so I don’t know the size.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would be feeding them several meals of kibble soaked in puppy formula or goats milk. Access to fresh water. Start on crate and potty training just as with any puppy. Outside needs to be in a safe, clean area. You can spray the ground with a bleach solution to kill any nasties. 
I had several bully litters over the years and never separated the pups, but I have never heard of a humane society separating a litter before so maybe I missed something. I would deter any over the top play but I've seen pups get pretty rough. Do remember that puppies, like children, learn what they live.
Handle them often, touch feet and ears, expose to noises and sounds, avoid the impulse to tip toe around them and let them safely explore their environment.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> I would be feeding them several meals of kibble soaked in puppy formula or goats milk. Access to fresh water. Start on crate and potty training just as with any puppy. Outside needs to be in a safe, clean area. You can spray the ground with a bleach solution to kill any nasties.
> I had several bully litters over the years and never separated the pups, but I have never heard of a humane society separating a litter before so maybe I missed something. I would deter any over the top play but I've seen pups get pretty rough. Do remember that puppies, like children, learn what they live.
> Handle them often, touch feet and ears, expose to noises and sounds, avoid the impulse to tip toe around them and let them safely explore their environment.


The humane society separated the litter of 10 into groups of two when they were 4 1/2 weeks old. When I asked why and where the dam was, they told me that separating the pups from dam and other litter mates at 5 weeks is completely normal and the best time for the puppies to learn independence and to bond with their humans. They also said the puppies were weaned anyway so they didn't need her. Apparently she needs a break from the litter before she can be adopted. I tried extremely hard not to roll my eyes and bit my tongue to keep quiet. That is another example of why I say this rescue has no idea what they're doing. So there are 5 different fosters that have two pups each.

One other thing is that the humane society said to only feed them canned wet food, so they have not experienced dry kibble yet. Should we get the same brand puppy food as we do the canned food and start them on kibble?

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely work on what you suggested.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I heard about that 'separating litters when they're 4 weeks etc.' but somehow I didn't buy it. My dalmatian had accidental pups and we kept the litter together for 9-10 weeks. The point is so they can learn from each other AND of course the mother. It's crucial for them to learn bite inhibition from that age. Lots of pups that have been adopted too early (before 7 weeks) were more than just a regular landshark. We had them on kibbles since, hmmm... 5-6 weeks? But VERY mushy kibble though, with warm water. Don't want those tiny sharpy teeth to hurt! Anyways that's just my opinion based on experience.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> The humane society separated the litter of 10 into groups of two when they were 4 1/2 weeks old. When I asked why and where the dam was, they told me that separating the pups from dam and other litter mates at 5 weeks is completely normal and the best time for the puppies to learn independence and to bond with their humans. They also said the puppies were weaned anyway so they didn't need her. Apparently she needs a break from the litter before she can be adopted. I tried extremely hard not to roll my eyes and bit my tongue to keep quiet. That is another example of why I say this rescue has no idea what they're doing. So there are 5 different fosters that have two pups each.
> 
> One other thing is that the humane society said to only feed them canned wet food, so they have not experienced dry kibble yet. Should we get the same brand puppy food as we do the canned food and start them on kibble?
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I will definitely work on what you suggested.


Wow that is a horrible organization!

Canned food is fine, but they should start on kibble. You can go ahead and use the same brand, cheap right? Just soften the kibble, use warm water if you must, and mix the canned in. The idea is to gradually reduce the moisture. Young pups need to be kept hydrated and often don't get enough water so adding more liquid to the food helps. Since they don't have big teeth they often give up on dry kibble as it takes to much energy to eat.
I feed puppy formula mixed with canned food until about 5 weeks and then start adding kibble and reducing canned food. At about 7 weeks I start cutting out the formula. By 8-9 weeks they are on dry kibble, unless there are issues. 
If possible can you get the other fosters on board with puppy play dates?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

The canned food is Taste of the Wild, so it isn't particularly cheap, but it isn't the most expensive either. I'll start adding some soaked kibble to see if I can get them to eat it.

For puppy play dates, I kind of doubt my friend would want to make the time for that. She has the time to do it, but she would have to sacrifice something else. You know how it is. I'll suggest it anyway, but I feel like she's more likely to listen to the rescue than to me, even though I swear I have more knowledge than them! Lol. I've caught them in many completely wrong things, but that's okay. I certainly don't know everything. Hence why I asked on here!

Another question:
*How long should the puppies be alone for?* My friend left at 8:30 this morning and did not get home until 3:00. I was scrambling to take them out, play with them, refill water bowls, clean up poop and pee, etc. It's frustrating because they aren't my puppies. I didn't sign on to do the work! Anyway, her being gone this long is a common occurrence. Should I let her know that she needs to give them way more attention? I would say they are out of their kennel maybe 30 minutes total in a day. Otherwise they are in a large kennel with each other and a bunch of toys. I would do so many things differently, but they aren't my fosters. I have to pick and choose my battles with what to suggest to her.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> The canned food is Taste of the Wild, so it isn't particularly cheap, but it isn't the most expensive either. I'll start adding some soaked kibble to see if I can get them to eat it.
> 
> For puppy play dates, I kind of doubt my friend would want to make the time for that. She has the time to do it, but she would have to sacrifice something else. You know how it is. I'll suggest it anyway, but I feel like she's more likely to listen to the rescue than to me, even though I swear I have more knowledge than them! Lol. I've caught them in many completely wrong things, but that's okay. I certainly don't know everything. Hence why I asked on here!
> 
> ...


That's a better food then I was expecting, seen lots of rescues provide fosters with complete crap.
These puppies will need much more time then that to grow into well balanced adults, or as balanced as they can be. They will need interaction and handling and they need time to explore their world, even if it's just the kitchen and a piece of the yard. Further if they are in fact at a genetic disadvantage the more effort put into them the better. She should not be fostering puppies if she cannot commit to the time. They will carry these few weeks with them for the rest of their lives. When raising orphaned pups it is not uncommon to see me carting them around in my pockets or shirt as I move around the house all day.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> That's a better food then I was expecting, seen lots of rescues provide fosters with complete crap.
> These puppies will need much more time then that to grow into well balanced adults, or as balanced as they can be. They will need interaction and handling and they need time to explore their world, even if it's just the kitchen and a piece of the yard. Further if they are in fact at a genetic disadvantage the more effort put into them the better. She should not be fostering puppies if she cannot commit to the time. They will carry these few weeks with them for the rest of their lives. When raising orphaned pups it is not uncommon to see me carting them around in my pockets or shirt as I move around the house all day.


Unfortunately, I knew this was going to be the case. When she first told me she was going to be fostering two puppies I was angry. Truly angry. I knew this was going to be a disaster, as she has never had a puppy before, and now she was bringing home _two_ very sensitive 5 week old puppies. I'm not trying to bash her or anything. She has a really good heart. She just isn't very informed and doesn't even know that there is a better way to do things. That's why I'm doing the legwork and putting in a lot of my time. I will start taking them outside and working with them more tomorrow. I didn't have much time today.

I really appreciate you answering my questions, so thank you very much. I'm trying to do my best for them.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Just a quick update. I started adding kibble to their wet food, and they are wolfing it down no problem. I also started feeding them more food in general.

I have started taking them outside a couple times a day. It’s very interesting to see their personalities when in different environments. The dark brown female is confident in all situations. She runs right up to scary things to smell and investigate. The tan male puppy completely freezes in new environments. It takes him a while to open up and start exploring. He’s the bully when in a comfortable environment though.

I have introduced them to lots of new things, and they take it in stride for the most part. Again, the tan puppy takes more time to come around. They both learned how to navigate stairs extremely quickly. Oddly enough, the tan puppy was confident when introduced to chickens (through a fence while I held him) and the female completely freaked out. Not what I was expecting.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's so interesting to watch how they react to things and see their personalities develop.It's good that they have you to look out for them


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> Just a quick update. I started adding kibble to their wet food, and they are wolfing it down no problem. I also started feeding them more food in general.
> 
> I have started taking them outside a couple times a day. It’s very interesting to see their personalities when in different environments. The dark brown female is confident in all situations. She runs right up to scary things to smell and investigate. The tan male puppy completely freezes in new environments. It takes him a while to open up and start exploring. He’s the bully when in a comfortable environment though.
> 
> I have introduced them to lots of new things, and they take it in stride for the most part. Again, the tan puppy takes more time to come around. They both learned how to navigate stairs extremely quickly. Oddly enough, the tan puppy was confident when introduced to chickens (through a fence while I held him) and the female completely freaked out. Not what I was expecting.


I hate that this has become your problem, but it sounds like you have things well in hand. I love watching puppies explore and learn. I am convinced that puppies and children can only be truly enjoyed on their level, and it gives us an opportunity to rediscover our world through new eyes.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Well done @Pytheis for taking care of the pup esp when they're not even your responsibility in the 1st place. Canned food mixed with kibble is a great way to feed any dog, best of both worlds. It IS really interesting to see how pups behave in different environment, esp taking them for the 1st time and watch who takes the lead, who ignores and who is unsure. It's a funny observation ?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

At 5 weeks old, one puppy obsessively humps his litter mates. I have never seen a puppy that young do that. Why would this be? Is that normal for that age?


sure - it has nothing what so ever to do with sexual urges.

this is social behaviour -- and you sort of answered the question yourself in the very next
paragraph when you said this same pup latches onto thorat and ears and is physical.

I WOULD take them outside - as I do all my own pups .
At four to 5 weeks if climate and temperature appropriate they do go out side.

Youn pups maybe for an hour . I might put them into a specially built safe enclosure under the
shade tree with water and a few toys - and I will sit in a chair two three feet away , either readign
and being distracted by some behaviour whch is informative as to inherent character.

a five week old can be out for a longer time -- safe enclosure - where they can move around or stretch
out belly to cool grass.

I may take them out as individuals , briefly, for personal attention , or I might take the bunch out and
very slowly walk a total of 30 feet (return trip) to get them to bond and follow . 
Then they are put back into the pen - before being brought in to a clean pup-room they are allowed to
pee -- starts house training young.

Gradual exposrure to outside is important for immune health. They are introduced to little doses of nature , the pollen , the grasses, the beneficial bacteria and soil organisms which become part of their micro biome.

pups and children raised in too clean an environment never develop a rational immune response. 
a little "dirt" , less asthma .

I wouldn't free feed. . Their might be priority rights competition - best place to rest , best and most food , hoarding the toys. Again another opportunity to observe the personality dynamics.

If one pup seems deprived because all the others and the mr humpy dog are too assertive , then you can always
let that pup compete and then remove and give him/her a topper upper 

you can't correct the other pups .


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Well, the puppies have been spayed/neutered and one is going home today. Yay!

Honestly, it is a miracle that these dogs have survived. I love my friend, but... Wow. She took my advice about taking them out of the cage more often to heart, but didn't catch the part where you are supposed to watch them. She started letting them out in the entire house while she worked on her computer in a completely different room. Unfortunately, the puppies developed a lot of terrible habits due to this, such as peeing in the house, eating cat litter, and chewing on cords. Sigh. Hopefully their new owners will be able to break these habits fairly easily.

One time, I happened to walk in the front door and saw the tan puppy, Waffles, at the top of a huge set of stairs (16 steps) shaking and screaming his head off. When he saw me, he tried to get to me, stumbled and fell down five steps before catching himself. I then had to go up and rescue him. My friend was taking a nap in another room. I think I might have a premature heart attack from these guys!

Anyway, the puppies have survived and they are going home. Thanks for all the advice!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

*You're a saint!*



Pytheis said:


> When she first told me she was going to be fostering two puppies I was angry. I knew this was going to be a disaster, as she has never had a puppy before, and now she was bringing home _two_ very sensitive 5 week old puppies. I'm not trying to bash her or anything. She has a really good heart. She just isn't very informed and doesn't even know that there is a better way to do things. That's why I'm doing the legwork and putting in a lot of my time. I will start taking them outside and working with them more tomorrow. I didn't have much time today.


I love that you're stepping in for the puppies' sake; you're awesome for that, and I'm cringing inside because I HATE that you were put in this position. When people like you have people like your (good-hearted but ill-informed) friend around, I always hope that resentments don't flare up and friendships stay intact. Me, I get irritated really quick by carelessness and any laziness that prevents even the most basic attempts to self-educate.

Puppies are a CRAZY amount of work. Having a bumbling animal shelter to contend with too is just icing on the cake. Are you going to give your friend a "Raising Puppies for Dummies" book and say "no more for me!" :laugh2:

I think she owes you a case of wine. GOOD wine!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

OMG the puppies were spayed/neutered this early???

Now I need some wine!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> OMG the puppies were spayed/neutered this early???
> 
> Now I need some wine!


Unfortunately, it's a rescue. They never allow animals to go to new homes unless spayed or neutered, even bunnies! That means that a lot of 7-8 week old pups get surgery. Not much I can do about it, although I do get where they are coming from. They see too many abandoned animals to want to allow more carelessness from pets they once were responsible for, and may still be responsible for depending on how you look at it.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Oh no. It has literally been one day since the puppies left and she went and got another foster. This one is 13 years old with serious health issues. He is covered in stitches from tumor removals, he can barely walk, he's on quite a few meds, and he has renal failure. She literally said to me that he can stay outside as long as he doesn't bark but, "It may get too cold for him at night with his old bones." I told her it isn't safe for him to just be left outside by himself and she ignored me. Here I go again.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Will the friendship survive?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> Oh no. It has literally been one day since the puppies left and she went and got another foster. This one is 13 years old with serious health issues. He is covered in stitches from tumor removals, he can barely walk, he's on quite a few meds, and he has renal failure. She literally said to me that he can stay outside as long as he doesn't bark but, "It may get too cold for him at night with his old bones." I told her it isn't safe for him to just be left outside by himself and she ignored me. Here I go again.


Repeat after me, "not my circus, not my monkeys". It has saved me from a few assault charges over the years.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe you need to report her to the shelter or AC even. In that case I wouldn't care about the friendship.You are super tolerant of her stupidity (leaving 5 week puppies alone way too long, feeding wild pests, relying on you to rescue them from her etc.). And this is not a 'rescue' when they put their animals in danger. Have they ever done a home check?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

He seems to want to stay outside, so that is why she isn't pushing to get him inside. She often leaves her own dog out for hours when she leaves the house. She's 72, so she is very ingrained in her ways and doesn't even realize things can and should be done differently than when she was younger.

The friendship will have to survive, or life will be very difficult for me. Like I said, this rescue is very poor, so they did not do a home check. They sent her some paperwork to fill out, and that was about it. They are a no-kill shelter and are desperate for fosters and volunteers. It's inexcusable, but I don't think there is anything I can really do about it. They are a huge rescue. The main one in my city.

I just feel bad because if I don't put my time and energy in, it's the animals that suffer, no one else. I'm honestly not sure why they didn't just put this poor guy down. They said he had three tumors, a skin condition, so he is completely shaved, he has down pasterns that are so awful it's unbelievable and he has a hard time walking, renal failure, and is extremely underweight. Again, this is a 13 year old dog that was abandoned. In my opinion, it would have been kindest for the dog to be put to sleep peacefully instead of passed around from person to person. It's unlikely that he will ever be adopted.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

He's been here for only a few hours, but I already love the guy. He looks like a husky mix of some kind. He's very sweet. His face looks super young for such an old dog, and he is so confident! I finally convinced him to come inside, and he wondered up the stairs and jumped right up on the bed like he owned the place. He's very responsive when I say "Eh eh!" when he goes for the car litter boxes. All around he seems like he was well loved at some point. He appears to be potty trained. He allowed me to handle his bone and took it gently from me when I offered it. Hopefully now he can take a nap. He has been panting and pacing pretty much ever since he got here.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

What mix do you guys think he is based on his face alone? I know, just one picture isn’t super helpful. ?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Coyote or wolf hybrid? I thought it was a pup; hadn't read the previous post. Very sweet face. I can understand how you want to keep the friendship. First I thought she was a young woman. I agree; can't change a 72 year old. My best to you. Lucky old dog to have the last part of his life be peaceful and loved.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Now I'm really in trouble though. She brought him home and left for the night, leaving him outside because he didn't want to come in. She said that every time she tried to go to over to him he got up and walked away. He followed me inside, and since she wasn't home, I couldn't leave him downstairs with her five cats and dog because her dog can be dog aggressive with new dogs. So upstairs he came. Well when she finally came home he refused to go back downstairs. He wanted nothing to do with her again and has completely attached to me. I had to lead him down on a leash. Now he is just sitting at the top of the stairs waiting to be let back in. It's making me so sad. I keep telling her that he's her foster and I didn't sign on to take care of a dog that may lack bowel control. She agrees, but the poor guy is just so sad. Why do I have to have such soft heart when it comes to animals??

I too keep thinking wolf when I see him, but it seems like that can't possibly be right? Wolf dogs are legal here as far as I know, so it technically can be possible. It just seems so unlikely and he is so sweet. His personality doesn't remind me of a wolf.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Coydogs are notoriously shy and skittish, and often possess poor health. In experiments they did with purposely breeding them, they breed themselves into sterility and extinction within a couple of generations. 
The face potentially looks shepherd or collie and husky but it's tough to say from that shot alone. I initially thought maybe some terrier but then remembered that you said he was shaved.
Pacing and panting could be indicators of pain or stress. Is he on pain meds?


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

@Pytheis, you have a GREAT HEART. 

That said, unless you are willing to be the virtual foster to a succession of puppies/dogs that your friend takes in, I'd back out. Sooner rather than later. Your friend doesn't appear to understand what puppies/dogs need, nor open to learning new/safer approaches (I think this is less a factor of age than it is personality), and the 'rescue' sounds problematic, at best. This reads like a recipe for disaster IMO.

Consider fostering puppies/dogs on your own (preferably with another 'rescue'), IF you have the time/space to do that. Continuing to step in for your friend, like this, is simply encouraging her continue. 

Aly


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Yes, he is clearly in A LOT of pain. He was on my bed and breathing so hard I thought he might die then and there. I texted my friend and asked if they sent pain meds home with him and she said no. This guy has visible metal staples all over him and his penis area is swollen as a balloon, but no pain meds?? I told her she should ask them for some.

You are right, @Aly, I have started to tell her I won't take care of him. I made him go downstairs last night even though I felt awful, because I knew I would be putting in way too much work, and I don't have the energy for it. She told me that he went to the bathroom in the house multiple times last night, so I clearly made the right decision. But first thing this morning he is back up at my door wanting to be let in again. I have to sneak around him so he doesn't see me and come running. I am thinking I will put a baby gate at the bottom of the stairs so he can't come up at all. I don't think it's safe for him to climb the stairs unsupervised. He's so wobbly.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It sounds like an animal abuse case. Maybe that lady is mentally impaired and can't help it but it seems that there needs to be an intervention on behalf of this dog. You see these cases on Animal Planet. I think I would respectfully put all cards on the AC table to save the dog(s) and the lady as well.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting (or overinterpreting) what you've written about this dog, but he sounds to be begging for help. Whether he's begging for relief from pain/discomfort, to be adopted by you, or to be 'let go,' I cannot say. But that's what it reads like to me; breaks my heart. 

Whatever the case, I'd insist that the dog needs to be seen by a qualified vet --- not the rescue vet. If your friend (who I assume isn't your roommate, is that correct?) doesn't understand that need or is unwilling to arrange it, *I* would either take the dog to a vet for assessment or call animal control to intervene. But, I'm fairly pushy that way, so ...

Aly

ETA. Just read @Wolfydog's post. I agree.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Well, my friend is technically my landlord, but we just call each other friends at this point. We often go out for coffee, go shopping together, go for walks together, go to the lake to swim, etc. We just introduce each other as friends now.

She is speaking with the rescue at this exact moment about pain meds and his bathroom issues. Based on the one-sided conversation I can hear, I think the person on the other end is telling her he's just in a new environment and it isn't pain related. I beg to differ, but the crappy thing is that it isn't my call. Animal control will not get involved, IMO. This is the shelter for the entire city. They are huge and a very big name. They would likely assume that I don't know what I'm talking about and completely write me off. At least, that has been my experience in the past. Like I said previously, I have had dealings with this rescue before, and all of them have been negative. I've been completely screwed over by them with no recourse.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Someone asked about raccoon poop.

" Is it safe for the puppies to go outside in our fenced backyard? My friend feeds the squirrels and mice back there (yes, I know. I can't convince her to stop) and I have for a fact seen raccoons and raccoon poop in the yard as well. The puppies clearly are not well vaccinated, if at all. So, is it safe for them or should we just keep them inside? "


https://torontodogwalking.com/dangers-raccoon-urine-feces-dog/

Diseases Spread by Raccoons
Leptospirosis
Raccoons are one of many animals that can transmit Leptospirosis through their urine, which is a bacterial infection causing flu-like symptoms. Additionally, dogs can pass Leptospirosis to humans who then come into contact with their dog’s urine. This disease is most commonly spread when dogs ingest urine from a raccoon latrine, or drink infected water, such as from a puddle or stagnant pond. Symptoms include muscle aches, fever, yellowing of the eyes, diarrhea, lethargy, and dark urine. Dogs that spend any amount of time outdoors should receive the Leptospirosis vaccine.

Giardia
Raccoon feces is home to a number of bacteria, including Giardia. Like Leptospirosis, Giardia can be passed from raccoon to dog to human with disastrous results. Dogs can contract Giardia by consuming raccoon feces or by drinking infected water. Giardia symptoms in dogs include vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, and weight loss. Many dogs do not show symptoms, however, which is why annual fecal exams are important. Whenever your dog develops unexplained vomiting or diarrhea, a veterinarian should test for this infection.

Raccoon Disease
Raccoon disease, also known as roundworm, occurs when dogs eat feces from raccoons that have been infected with the Baylisascaris procyonis parasite. Similarly, dogs that become infected with raccoon disease have the capability of passing it along to humans, as roundworm is a zoonotic disease. While raccoons are not adversely affected by roundworms, they do cause a number of problems in dogs since roundworm larva migrate to the brain and attack the central nervous system. Oftentimes, the early stages of roundworm are mistaken for rabies. Symptoms include loss of coordination and muscle control, difficulty swallowing, lethargy, circling, confusion, and seizures.

Canine Distemper Virus
In 2009, Toronto was plagued by a case of distemper that killed hundreds of raccoons and skunks. While distemper cannot be passed onto humans, it is extremely deadly to dogs, particularly puppies. Canine Distemper Virus is spread when dogs come into contact with infected food, water, urine, or feces. Keeping your dog’s vaccinations up to date is an important step in preventing this deadly disease.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, at a last resort, how about this? You adopt him so you can make the best decision for this poor dog. Like Aly, I find this a heart breaking story. Give him a few good days on pain meds and put him down when that time comes. Then find another land lady so you don't have to maintain this, seemingly unhealthy, friendship if it bothers you and having to witness all this heartache.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, at a last resort, how about this? You adopt him so you can make the best decision for this poor dog. Like Aly, I find this a heart breaking story. Give him a few good days on pain meds and put him down when that time comes. Then find another land lady so you don't have to maintain this, seemingly unhealthy, friendship if it bothers you and having to witness all this heartache.


Don't worry, the plan is to move out ASAP. 

It's just ridiculously expensive to rent in CO, so moving out is not at all easy. We pay $825 for rent right now, not including utilities, but average for a 1 bedroom is about $1,200. Since I need a two bedroom, I'm looking at $1,400 a month, depending on where I live. Plus I have pets, so I have to be in very certain rental properties... It isn't easy, but we are looking and trying to figure something out. Worst case scenario, we become "homeless" and move into a friend's house for free. They won't let me keep my rats or chickens though, only my dog, so that is very last resort. If we can tough it out for about a year more, we can move into our own house.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Someone asked about raccoon poop.
> 
> " Is it safe for the puppies to go outside in our fenced backyard? My friend feeds the squirrels and mice back there (yes, I know. I can't convince her to stop) and I have for a fact seen raccoons and raccoon poop in the yard as well. The puppies clearly are not well vaccinated, if at all. So, is it safe for them or should we just keep them inside? "
> 
> ...


I am aware of all of this. I have spoken with my vet and there have been quite a few lepto cases in my city. I sent all this information to my landlord, but she says she can't bear to stop feeding them. After all, what would they do? They would starve!

Yep, we are trying very hard to move out.

Thanks though. I will send her this information as well. The more I send, the better, right?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

@wolfydog, I would love to adopt this boy. I have seriously considered it. But, I cannot afford all of his vet bills on top of my own animals. I am at the point where I can care for my current pets just fine, but I am saving for my new puppy, and I cannot add more on top of that. It would come down to him or a puppy, and I would pick a puppy every time.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Can your friend/landlord afford his vet bills? If so, see if you can convince her to underwrite a trip to a qualified vet. If not, I would use the situation to both leverage better care for the dog and to start leveraging an exit for myself. Something along the lines of, 

"_This dog is clearly in pain which NO ONE can diagnose over the phone, the swelling around his penis suggests an infection for which he'll need antibiotics as appropriate, and he's eliminating in the house which is never a good sign. He clearly needs medical help. Denying him medical help is CRUEL. I don't think you're cruel, but you're not helping him either. So, will you get a decent vet to help this dog?_"

If she refuses or says she can't, simply say, "Well, your dog, your choice; it's on you." Then, back off and stay away. 

IMNSHO,


Aly


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

On the housing situation - I always had a hard time finding a place to rent with dogs - Never tried it with dogs + chickens + rats --- at least not intentionally although I did have rats in one rental. And housing - rent or purchase - is darned expensive most places now. If you are looking to complicate this with a puppy..... 

I'd spend the money on vet bills for this dog - shouldn't be many if you and the vet agree he isn't long for this earth. Wait until you are in your own home or a new rental already to get a puppy. Because you want out of your current situation.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

middleofnowhere said:


> On the housing situation - I always had a hard time finding a place to rent with dogs - Never tried it with dogs + chickens + rats --- at least not intentionally although I did have rats in one rental. And housing - rent or purchase - is darned expensive most places now. If you are looking to complicate this with a puppy.....
> 
> I'd spend the money on vet bills for this dog - shouldn't be many if you and the vet agree he isn't long for this earth. Wait until you are in your own home or a new rental already to get a puppy. Because you want out of your current situation.


The puppy likely won't be gotten until summer next year, but it is possible one will come home this winter. Either way, I have the whole puppy situation figured out. He will be a service dog prospect, so I'm not waiting around longer than I already have been, and he won't *technically* complicate my housing more than it already is. But, I will be moving out on my own eventually and will then only have him, no chickens or second dog. The rats will be dead by then. They don't live long, and I do not plan on getting any more. Thanks though! I do appreciate the concern.

I'm guessing we will be staying here until we buy our own house. It is really nice that my landlord does not care what animals I have. I think I just need to put down some very firm boundaries in the meantime.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Holy crap. I detest rescues that don't provide humane vet care. If they can't afford to provide that, they shouldn't be taking in more dogs. 

I'm the one who authorizes vetting for our rescue, and if I had a foster text me a picture of a dog penis swollen like a balloon my answer would be "Vet, today -- I'll tell them you're on the way now." 

He might have an infection from a neutering complication. This has to be dealt with. If you can figure out the vet of record who did the surgery, THAT is who this pup needs to see.

Isn't that Dr. Jeff/Rocky Mountain Vet guy on Animal Planet supposed to be super cheap and rescue friendly in the Denver area? We used to do foster volunteer chip-ins for emergency vet care when we fostered for the city shelter with crappy vet care -- there were a lot of dogs who had bills covered $20 at a time by lots of people. We all helped out with each other's emergencies, when they happened. It was an frustrating way of saving a foster dog's life, but the shelter wouldn't pay for emergency care -- even if the dog was gushing blood out of an orifice. We got together friends and founded our local breed rescue because we were tired of not getting access to good care with dogs fostered for the shelter, so I really do get it. 

Maybe take a picture send the shelter's medical contact a text with the photo that says something like: "Neutering site looks infected, severe swelling. SOS -- need vet appt to get abx and pain meds asap." If that doesn't work, I'd probably go to their shelter with the pup and not leave until care was authorized. He likely needs you to be a *cough* "mama dog" in advocating for him. Your friend/landlady should understand.


And as for WolfyDog's suggestion about adopting him, who says you have to keep him? Just get him through this and then rehome him yourself -- it's very easy to advertise on Rehome by AdoptaPet without a rescue doing it for you now.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Just a quick update. After leaving the poor guy outside for basically three days straight, she finally decided to take him back to the shelter because she didn't want him soiling in the house. Why did she agree to take a renal failure dog in the first place then?? They told her he would do that. Anyway, Thunder went to a new foster home and he was adopted. Happy ending!

Also, I went to the shelter and had her taken off of the foster list without her knowing it was me. She asked me if I could watch three more 5 week old puppy fosters while she was out of town for the weekend. Like... NO??? Why would you foster dogs, especially puppies, if you're going to be gone??? Ugh. I will never understand.

She will no longer foster, and Thunder was adopted. Happy endings all around!


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Man, Thunder's come a long way...

GOOD on you for taking her off of the foster list.


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