# Pit bull shot; owner cited. Unfair prejudice?



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

A pit bull owner came home and found her dog shot in her own backyard inside the fence. The pit bull owner called the police and reported the dog shot. When the police arrived they didn’t seem concerned about investigating who shot the dog; all the police seemed concerned with was citing the pit bull owner for owning a pit bull without insurance. It’s illegal in this area to own a pit bull without special insurance in some places it's flat-out illegal in this area to own a pit bull.


> Quote:The owner of a pit-bull dog that was shot by a neighbor wants to move from Clermont County after being the only one charged with a crime. "It's just total craziness over my puppy getting shot,"


http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100...Clermont-County

The neighbor alleges that the dog was outside of the fence when he shot the dog; therefore apparently he is claiming he shot in self-defense. According to the vet, the dog had one or more broken bones in his front leg(s). It seems mighty suspicious; if the dog had broken leg(s) could it crawl back under the fence to get back into its yard? I’d be interested to see the x-rays and know the vets opinion if the dog could’ve crawled back under the fence into its yard after being shot. Seems like mighty shoddy police work.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

That's way beyond shoddy. You don't cite the owner and ignore what the neighbor did. That's flat out WRONG. It's a PUPPY what's to protect one's self from?


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Seriously, how hard is it to crate or keep your dog indoors when you are not home? Especially breeds considered "dangerous" and highly discriminated against by society. We need to be protecting these breeds the most not setting them up for failure!! It's like asking some people to move mountains, and then things like this happen. UGH. Ohio pretty much hates pit bulls, I can't believe this Ohio PB owner would be so careless...


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

That's awful. How can the police even charge the owner. I mean, the owner technically doesn't own a pit bull ANYMORE....


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Wow, poor dog! Read the article and an 80 year old man shot the dog and going just by what he said? Sorry, this dog doesn't sound vicious to me by the report and I feel so bad that the owner has to deal with this crap and that poor dog with the wounds.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

There are many things about this story that doesn’t quite make sense to me. I suspect that there was pre-existing bad blood between the neighbor and the dog owner, and that perhaps the old man had a score to settle with the dog and/or woman. I suspect that the police were derelict and prejudice against pit bulls and/or perhaps the woman. The old man’s story doesn’t seem honest. The article is pretty vague so I’m trying to cover the bases (conjecture/assume different circumstances/scenarios) with logic.

1) If you’re walking around outside you probably don’t have a gun, your gun is probably inside. If you’re an 80-year-old man outside and you feel your life is under immediate threat by a pit bull, do you hobble inside to safety and grab a gun and hobble back outside into danger? That doesn’t quite make sense. Wouldn’t it make more sense if you’re safe inside to call the police and/or animal control?

So let’s suppose that the old man was carrying a gun:
2) Considering the circumstances what do you think the odds are that an 80-year-old man was INNOCENTLY walking around with a shotgun? I suspect not.

3) It sounds like by the story that there was more than one bone broken in the dog’s front legs. It sounds like there was at least one bone broken in each of the front legs. If that is true I find it doubtful that the dog was able to get back home and slide under the fence; so that seems to suggest that the dog was shot in its own yard.

4) If a dog had been shot in both legs with a shotgun so badly that both legs were broken and the dog had somehow managed to slide back under the fence wouldn’t they likely be slide and blood marks under the fence? The apparent lack of this type of evidence seems to suggest that the dog was shot in its own yard. 

It seems that the police may have figuratively shot the messenger and have aided and abetted a crime with their apparent dereliction and prejudice.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsSeriously, how hard is it to crate or keep your dog indoors when you are not home? Especially breeds considered "dangerous" and highly discriminated against by society.


Why should the dog and its owner suffer for other people’s paranoia and prejudice and hatred?

Let’s use people and race as an analogy. If you were a race that was stereotyped as violent; would you think it would be fair to you if people ask you to stay inside as a prisoner in your home to make it harder for people to claim that you are continuing to be violent? Would you feel okay about being a prisoner in your home to appease false accusations/people's paranoia/people's prejudices?

Haven’t you heard that if people are kept in solitary confinement that it can cause or intensify mental illness and antisocial behavior and can cause and/or intensify violent behavior. Don’t you think the same can be true for dogs? Don’t you see that false accusations of violence can actually cause violence?

Not that I’m totally against solitary confinement for some people and not that I’m totally against crating dogs; sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes it is beneficial; however it should be worked on a case-by-case basis because sometimes it can make things worse.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

I do agree that dogs should be kept indoors when their owner is not at home. Keeping a dog unattended in the backyard is asking for trouble: neighborhood people taunting the dog, dog escaping, dog excessively barking, someone poisons the dog, stormy weather, dog being stolen, etc. I would rather my dog "suffer" in a crate when I'm not home than leave it outside. 

So....cite the owner, sure, for having a Pit Bull, whatever, but pursue charges against the person that SHOT the dog. 

On a side note, and partially related to this...
Being a Pit Bull owner (and I think the other Pit Bull owners on this board can agree with me) you can't turn a blind eye to the ignorance, hatred, or judgment others pass on your dog just because it happens to be the "P" word. It doesn't matter if your Pit Bull is thirteen years old, no teeth, is letting the cat climb all over it, wouldn't harm a fly, and sleeps all day long on the floor by your feet. Once you tell someone it's a "Pit Bull," and they are anti-Pit Bull, they will start with the stories and judgments. It is up to us, as responsible Pit Bull owners, to ensure that our dogs are super-socialized, super-trained, and 100% in our control at ALL times whether that be in or out of the house. Yes, you can _try_ to educate people about Pit Bulls all you want, but there are some people who will never change their mind. 

Owning a Pit Bull and keeping it outside when no one is home (also seems dumb to me that the owner in the above story would have a dog that requires particular insurance or whatever OUTSIDE in plain view when no one is home) is not ensuring that our dogs are in our control at all times.


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleI do agree that dogs should be kept indoors when their owner is not at home. Keeping a dog unattended in the backyard is asking for trouble: neighborhood people taunting the dog, dog escaping, dog excessively barking, someone poisons the dog, stormy weather, dog being stolen, etc. I would rather my dog "suffer" in a crate when I'm not home than leave it outside.


I totally agree with SouthernThistle on this.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsSeriously, how hard is it to crate or keep your dog indoors when you are not home? Especially breeds considered "dangerous" and highly discriminated against by society.
> ...



Your analogies are so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. I mean, I can see the principle, but I think you're going way overboard.

You must have never owned a pit bull, also you must not be aware of BSL. BTW I am not asking people to crate their dogs and keep them in confinement or stuck in a basement for 14 straight years. I am simply suggesting to crate their dogs when they cannot be home to supervise. Funny how I have fostered a countless number of German Shepherds and Siberian Huskies and always crated them when I was at work, and none of them went crazy, anti-social, or mentally ill. I also mentioned crating OR just simply keeping the dog inside, loose or whatever.


I don't believe any dog should be set up to fail, but especially owners of "dangerous" breeds because they are a bigger liability and as owners of these dogs we do require a more heightened sense of responsibility. Guess what, if the owner had been more proactive/responsible and kept his dog inside, this entire situation would have never happened. What about that analogy again?....


I'd take crating my dogs over them getting shot ANYDAY. They can run around, explore, play, and get fresh air when I come home.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: vectorSketcher
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleI do agree that dogs should be kept indoors when their owner is not at home. Keeping a dog unattended in the backyard is asking for trouble: neighborhood people taunting the dog, dog escaping, dog excessively barking, someone poisons the dog, stormy weather, dog being stolen, etc. I would rather my dog "suffer" in a crate when I'm not home than leave it outside.
> ...










I too agree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People are afraid to live next to pits. They are. It is a fact. How many times have we read that the dogs broke through a fence and attacked. 

No one has any business keeping a dog in a fenced yard while they are not home. No one. A kennel with a dig-proof base and covered over INSIDE a fenced yard is a different story. 

A simple fence is leaving very little between your dog and all the dangers of the outside world. 

Because they cannot PROVE that the dog did not slip into the neighbor's yard, they did not cite the neighbor. If the dog WAS in the neighbor's yard and he was afraid of it, he can shoot it. I would HOPE that if one of my sheps found its way into the neighbor's yard they would not shoot it, but I would be blaming myself way more than the neighbor. People are afraid of sheps. If I did not care enough to keep it under wraps, than too bad. 

Because dogs are not humans, they are under house arrest at all times. They must stay on the property of the owner. If the owner does not have a secure enclosure, they need to keep the dog inside. If the dog is likely to break out of the house (had one that did), it must be kept crated. 

I find the owners of the puppy terribly irresponsible. They have a breed of dog that can be very dangerous. The two of these really do not mix well. They were irresponsible for leaving the pup in a yard, for not having the required insurance, and for not having the dog licensed. They SHOULD be ticketed. They should quit whining and take responsibility for their pets.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Completely agree, Selzer.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I find the owners of the puppy terribly irresponsible. They have a breed of dog that can be very dangerous. The two of these really do not mix well. They were irresponsible for leaving the pup in a yard, for not having the required insurance, and for not having the dog licensed. They SHOULD be ticketed. They should quit whining and take responsibility for their pets.


I feel bad that the dog was shot; however, owners like the one in the story, are just another reason why people associate stereotypes with Pit Bull owners, too


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs
> Your analogies are so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. I mean, I can see the principle, but I think you're going way overboard.


My analogies are not ridiculous; you even admit to the principle. I think it just hit’s a little close to home for you so you are in denial and are trying to obfuscate and inoculate yourself from criticism.

I feel the unfair discrimination against dog breeds, is similar to unfair racial discrimination. 


> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsYou must have never owned a pit bull, also you must not be aware of BSL. BTW I am not asking people to crate their dogs and keep them in confinement or stuck in a basement for 14 straight years. I am simply suggesting to crate their dogs when they cannot be home to supervise. Funny how I have fostered a countless number of German Shepherds and Siberian Huskies and always crated them when I was at work, and none of them went crazy, anti-social, or mentally ill. I also mentioned crating OR just simply keeping the dog inside, loose or whatever.


I’ve never owned a pit bull, however I have rehabilitated several. Many of which were hard cases, ones that trainers and owners had given up on and some there were apparently rescued from dog fighting training. Ones that were kept on short leashes or in small cages to deliberately make them more aggressive.

Apparently all you've had are the easy cases, the ones with genetic good dispositions and ones that have not been traumatized or trained for fighting.

I obviously know about BSL, because I'm complaining about it. I don't know that much about it, but the more I learn the more I see the hatred and ignorance (prejudice) of such; the more I dislike it.


> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsI don't believe any dog should be set up to fail


Your suggestions will be setting up many dogs for failure.



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsGuess what, if the owner had been more proactive/responsible and kept his dog inside, this entire situation would have never happened. What about that analogy again?...


Analogy: Using your "logic" victims should be locked up so that they don't get raped and so rapists/perpetrators can wander free.

I think it's unfair to try to punish the victim. The dog did not commit a crime. Apparently the person that shot the dog committed a crime.

This whole situation would not have happened if the 80-year-old man would have been kept inside.







So it would have make more sense to lock up the old man than the dog.

The old man apparently committed a crime, the police apparently covered up for it; and your "solution" is to punish the dog? 

I think it’s more appropriate and more of a deterrent to punish the perpetrator rather than punish the victim. I think would be more appropriate if the police competently and fairly did their job. Punishing victims encourages more crime, it enables and empowers criminals.


> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsI am not asking people to crate their dogs


Your posts seem to indicate otherwise.



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsSeriously, how hard is it to crate





> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsI'd take crating my dogs over them getting shot ANYDAY.


Your dogs would be easier to shoot if they were in their crates. Apparently the old man shot the pit bull when it was fenced in a small yard, so would be much easier to shoot your dog in the confines of its crate. Like they say; like shooting fish in a barrel.

I think one of the ways to prevent dogs from getting shot and fed ground glass and other types of abuses is to punish the abusers instead of punishing the victims.


> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistlehowever, owners like the one in the story, are just another reason why people associate stereotypes with Pit Bull owners


How would the pit bull owner be at fault; when it seems the old man was at fault for shooting the pit bull in the pit bull’s own backyard? You like so many seem to be jumping on the bandwagon for the witchhunt.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerNo one has any business keeping a dog in a fenced yard while they are not home. No one.


Wrong. It's cruel to leave some dogs in crates for long periods of time, especially if it's frequently. Some dogs have to be in a fenced yard to do their job; whether it be security or herding. Sometimes it's more healthy to leave a dog outdoors.



> Originally Posted By: selzerBecause they cannot PROVE that the dog did not slip into the neighbor's yard, they did not cite the neighbor. If the dog WAS in the neighbor's yard and he was afraid of it, he can shoot it. I would HOPE that if one of my sheps found its way into the neighbor's yard they would not shoot it, but I would be blaming myself way more than the neighbor.


The evidence seems to suggest that the dog was shot in its own yard. How would you feel if one of your neighbors shot your dog in your backyard? Would you blame yourself or your neighbor that shot your dog?



> Originally Posted By: selzerI find the owners of the puppy terribly irresponsible. They have a breed of dog that can be very dangerous.


GSDs can be very dangerous to. So using your "reasoning" if someone shot your dog in your backyard; you would be terribly you're responsible. I think that's ludicrous. I think the irresponsibly apparently is on part of the 80-year-old man that apparently shot the dog in its own fenced in yard.

====

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.
==
First they came for the pit bulls, and I did not speak out-because I did not have a pit bull.
Then they came for the Rottweilers, and I did not speak out-because I did not have a Rottweiler.
Then they came for the Dobermans, and I did not speak out because I did not have a Doberman.
Then they came for my GSD-but there was no other dog lovers left beside me to speak out.
====
Apparently you are too young or have a too short memory to know before the pit bull craze and pit bull witchhunt; German Shepherds were touted by many insurance surveys and other types of surveys as the most dangerous dogs because they had the most recorded dog bites of humans in the US. Of course the statistics didn't mention that the GSD was one of the most popular breeds at the time, and that most of the bites were minor like herding or play bites. Years ago the statistics were carefully crafted to demonize the GSD. I now see a similar trend to demonize pit bulls.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes life isn't fair and blah blah blah. I guess I just err on the side of caution than rather putting my dog in a situation with a high chance for something bad to happen. As a RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNER it is my job to protect my dog. NO my dogs do not live in a bubble but there ARE high risks with leaving a dog in a backyard all day. You seem to be butt sore over the "victim" label and would rather put a dog in a risky situation just so it can have freedom for a few hours or whatever so it is not "victimized". Between BSL, bite laws, and EXTREME prejudices against dangerous breeds, it is 100% irresponsible to leave one of these breeds outside unsupervised in a backyard. Hey if there were NEVER any cases of dogs in backyards being shot, poisoned, attacked, escaped and killed by cars, etc then maybe you would have a good argument.


Easy cases? We had to eventually put our pit bull to sleep because of her unmanageable human aggression issues. 


Way to leave out the rest of my sentence so it makes you look right and makes me look like I am making contradictions, which I am not. I believe this is what I typed in full.


"*I am not asking people to crate their dogs and keep them in confinement or stuck in a basement for 14 straight years*. I am simply suggesting to crate their dogs when they cannot be home to supervise"


..and my dogs would be easier to shoot in a crate? Sure if the crates were outside which would be just as dumb as leaving a dog free to roam in a backyard. Only one of my dogs is crated and her crate is inside my apartment and off to the back. Uhhh me thinks no one passing by my apartment door would ever know I have dogs in there as opposed to dogs being outside in the backyard in plain view.


Please tell me how my suggestions would be "setting up many dogs to fail". How is a dog that is kept free to roam in a backyard all day more safe than a dog that is crated inside or kept inside all day loose(assuming it can be trusted) while the owner cannot be home. And yes I already know you can tell me a fire could happen but that is a very freak occurance and not nearly as common as a neighbor or stranger shooting or poisoning a dog or a dog escaping from the backyard and being struck by a car. 




> Originally Posted By: DogGoneThe evidence seems to suggest that the dog was shot in its own yard. How would you feel if one of your neighbors shot your dog in your backyard? Would you blame yourself or your neighbor that shot your dog?


I can answer that one and this is hypothetical because I would never be so careless and irresponsible as to leave my dog unsupervised in a backyard. I would blame myself 100% because *I* was the one who put my dog in the backyard, he did not put himself back there I made the choice to keep my dog in the backyard when I left so it is *MY* fault. People shoot dogs for simply barking or looking at them wrong, people shoot dogs for less...just by their appearance, sometimes out of spite. It baffles me why people would take that risk, put your emotion and victim BS aside and think with LOGIC. In fact my boyfriend(police officer) got a nuisance dog barking call about 30 minutes ago, he was on the phone with me as he was waiting outside the house and I could hear the dog barking. It was a small stubby dog that is claimed to be used as a "guard dog". MY BF couldn't cite the owner because he wouldn't come outside and he didn't want to have to taze the dog to get to the front door, but this could also end up being a potentially bad situation where a neighbor could get tired enough of the barking and shoot the dog. YA SEE? The dog should be sleeping safe and sound inside where it belongs.



Clearly we have different views on the dogs living outside issue. Generally dogs who are kept outside often regress in training and temperament because a backyard can only entertain a dog for so long. I've seen enough horror as a GSD, Siberian Husky, and Doberman rescuer to know that dogs are better off kept INSIDE.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SouthernThistlehowever, owners like the one in the story, are just another reason why people associate stereotypes with Pit Bull owners
> ...


Yes, I am "jumping on the bandwagon for the witchhunt."







Me and my Pit Bull and the two local Pit Bull rescues with which we volunteer. 

Frankly, if you had as much experience with Pit Bulls as you claim to, you would very clearly understand my point. *Pit Bulls already have a bad rap, irresponsible owners (ones that leave their dogs outside when no one is home, ones that don't get particular insurance to keep their dog...legally, etc.) certainly don't help their reputation. *

Wow. 

Absolutely unreal. 

_I am now stepping away from this topic. _


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

DogGone just doesn't understand that *one* slip-up with a pit bull, *one* incident involving a pit bull, all it takes is *one* irresponsible owner to be lax with their pit bull and it could mean another potential ban for the breed, it affects EVERY bully breed owner across the country and puts the right to own their dogs in jeopardy. People need to protect the breed and keep pit bulls out of the headlines!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

> Quote:Wrong. It's cruel to leave some dogs in crates for long periods of time, especially if it's frequently. Some dogs have to be in a fenced yard to do their job; whether it be security or herding. Sometimes it's more healthy to leave a dog outdoors.


It is cruel to keep dogs in crates for long periods of time. I agree, especially if it is frequently. My dogs stay outside all day long whether I am there or not. They are in large kennels that are secure. They cannot climb over or slide under as it seemed possible in this case. Also, my kennels are fenced around and inaccessible to the outside. A complete Zero could manage it, but they would have to do some serious trespassing. 

As for herding, are you involved in it. Do you think that the shepherd tells his dog to run up to the north pasture and move the five hundred ewes and lambs down to the south pasture while he runs into town for some chips and soda???

Shepherds work WITH their dogs, this is not what we are talking about. 

Dogs guarding the farm and livestock are really a different story and rarely a problem. Often these people DO use e-collars/fences to keep their dogs contained. But they often train them to a certain boundary well within their property, and again someone would have to seriously trespass to encounter the dog.

As for guarding within the city, etc. Dogs that are night watch dogs for businesses, etc, if they are outside, are usually fenced in by eight foot fencing with the upper part slanted inward, and usually the fence footing is concrete or asphalt. This fencing is generally comercial, strong, and dog cannot just climb, over, jump over, squeeze under etc. 



> Quote: The evidence seems to suggest that the dog was shot in its own yard. How would you feel if one of your neighbors shot your dog in your backyard? Would you blame yourself or your neighbor that shot your dog?


I am sure that to some pit bull enthusiasts, this puppy was in its own yard minding its own business and the ancient hater next door just waited for the owners to pull out of the drive before he took his assault rifle over there to shoot their dog. The artical made is sound like there was a possibility that the dog was able to get into the neighbor's yard. If it was a possibility, ANY bored dog in a yard will find the way to new adventures. Any scared and injured dog will try to drag himself back to his home and family. 

If someone shot my dog in my backyard, there would be no question about whether the dog was at home or trespassing. 



> Quote: GSDs can be very dangerous to. So using your "reasoning" if someone shot your dog in your backyard; you would be terribly you're responsible. I think that's ludicrous. I think the irresponsibly apparently is on part of the 80-year-old man that apparently shot the dog in its own fenced in yard.


Yes, I hold GSD owners to the same standard as Rott and Pitt owners. My back yard fence is not escape proof, though my dogs have never escaped from it. This is because I do not leave them to their own devices in my outer fence. It is a last ditch effort to keep them safe from the outside, but I never leave them loose in the area. I would be terribly irresponsible if I were to do so. 

It is far easier to secure and maintain a 15'x20' kennel.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I work 13 hours away from my home 4 days a week, there is no way I am crating or expecting my dogs to hold their bladders in my house. I live on 2 acres in a largely rural neighborhood, I have a well maintained fence surrounding my property as I also have horses. I lock up all but my 2 oldest German Shepherds in stalls, the two I leave loose are there to protect both my property and my horses, I am neither careless or irresponsible for leaving them loose in my yard, and in fact would feel careless and irresponsible if any of my horses were stolen as some of the locals around here have had in recent times

I love and provide for both my horses and my dogs and we all depend on each other for safety. I don't have any problem with my decision and as all the communities mailboxes are in the front corner of my property I have an opportunity to talk with all my neighbors who have nothing but good and positive things to say about my dogs. My neighbor across the street is a retired police officer and he has not only my phone numbers but a key to my front gate as well, so in the case of an emergency to either my house, horses or dogs , he is on top of it, he is a wonderful neighbor and my dogs love him and vice versa.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Personally I would rather come home to pee on the floor than a dead or missing dog. Determined criminals can easily shoot or poison loose/roaming "guard" dogs.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I guess determined criminals could also break into my house and shoot and kill my dogs, or my dogs could chew a cord and get electrocuted or start a fire and die in that, I'll take my chances with my dogs happily spending their day in the safety and comfort of their large yard where they have multiple places to rest and sleep , the company of each other and the freedom to pee and drink water when they feel like it, I respect your choice of housing your dogs, I'll however choose my way, they are quite safe and content. Life is a risk no matter what we do, I'll take my odds.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsDogGone just doesn't understand that *one* slip-up with a pit bull, *one* incident involving a pit bull, all it takes is *one* irresponsible owner to be lax with their pit bull and it could mean another potential ban for the breed, it affects EVERY bully breed owner across the country and puts the right to own their dogs in jeopardy. People need to protect the breed and keep pit bulls out of the headlines!



But in previous posts, we were arguing (not you & me but some people)
"there is no such thing as a pitbull"
If these "pibull" whatever breeds are getting bred out of hand & their temperments are awful etc maybe there should be a ban.
Maybe only licensed people should be breeding these animals,
Instead of everyone & their mother breeding them. (Literally)
I know many many people with this "pitbull" breed & they are NOT nice animals. Not people friendly or animal friendly.
Yes, I also understand its the owner.
But th people I know did NOT train their dogs to be aggressive this way.
IMHO


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LARHAGEI guess determined criminals could also break into my house and shoot and kill my dogs, or my dogs could chew a cord and get electrocuted or start a fire and die in that, I'll take my chances with my dogs happily spending their day in the safety and comfort of their large yard where they have multiple places to rest and sleep , the company of each other and the freedom to pee and drink water when they feel like it, I respect your choice of housing your dogs, I'll however choose my way, they are quite safe and content. Life is a risk no matter what we do, I'll take my odds.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

For me, my Heidi girl could take a 6 foot fence with no problem, after that, she never got the opportunity again, I was lucky nothing bad happened to her. Ava has never had the opportunity to test a fence, fence or no fence, no unsupervised outside time for her. Everyone is different, their experiences are different and perhaps until someone has a scare they will not consider any risks of letting a dog loose without supervision, with or without a fence. As for my girl, I feel it is too risky to let her out even within a fenced yard without supervision.

But also, my girl is my pet, she is not a working dog, she does not need to guard livestock, patrol property or anything else of that nature. I dont even expect her to guard my house so my take on it is going to be much different than someone with working dogs.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I house my dogs differently in every house I own. As we move every 4 years or so each dog probably lives in 3 different houses in their life span. 

I have used a dog walker and crated dogs in the house while gone at work. I agree they are the most secure that way. But they are not the happiest. 

We are living in McAlester, OK now. There is no licensed or bonded dog walker here so we hired a contractor to install a pretty secure dog run off our garage so the dogs can come in and out of the garage to an open are to potty. The run is inside the yard so is double fenced on 3 sides. The outer fence is a solid wood privacy fence so no one can see them. They are not as secure as they would be in the house but they seem happier. I am not as happy without them in the run as they are not as secure but it is the best I can do in this house at this time.

Sometimes accidents happen no matter how hard you try to prevent them. No system is perfect.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Your exactly right Kathy, everyone knows what works best for their individual dogs, if my dogs jumped fences than of course they wouldn't be left loose for that amount of time alone, my small terriers whom are diggers are secured in a large cement floored box stall, my young Shepherd Gavin is also secured in a very large , safe box stall. The dogs I leave loose are mature dogs who have no inclination or desire to jump out of my yard, why would they? They have 2 plus acres to romp on and are more than content to be home, my 4 day work schedule is long, plus if I have errands to run it would be an even longer day for my dogs to be crated, and there is no way on Gods green earth that I would just allow my dogs to urinate and defecate all over the inside of my house likes someone actually suggested!!! The thing is you can imagine all kinds of horrors in every situation, so we all do what's best for our individual needs, I'm not going to tell anyone on this board that they are wrong in the way they raise their dogs, the mere fact we are even on this site is indicative of the love and concern we have for our dogs, I trust we know what is best for our own dogs.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsDogGone just doesn't understand that *one* slip-up with a pit bull, *one* incident involving a pit bull, all it takes is *one* irresponsible owner to be lax with their pit bull and it could mean another potential ban for the breed, it affects EVERY bully breed owner across the country and puts the right to own their dogs in jeopardy. People need to protect the breed and keep pit bulls out of the headlines!
> ...


In this thread when I mention "pit bull" I am referring to the APBT. 

Breed bans do NOT work, they only punish responsible owners. I can't believe that as the owner of a dangerous breed yourself you would even entertain the idea. When all the pit bulls are gone you can bet that they will come after your dog next. IMO pit bulls with unworkable unstable temperaments should be humanely euthanized. Pit Bulls are historically one of THE friendliest and most affectionate breeds with people. Ours ended up having to be PTS because she tried to attack people. If my GSD or husky was as unstable/unpredictable as she was, they'd be getting the axe too if they couldn't be rehabilitated. Human Aggression in dogs is a very dangerous thing, however you don't go off rallying to ban breeds and exterminate them as a whole, you take care of the isolated cases. I know of many cases involving GSDs attacking and biting people, should we just ban them all too because of the unstable ones?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, I guess people here (both for and against keeping the dog inside) are sort of forgetting...this dog OBVIOUSLY was a roamer. It says right in the first post that 2 of the dogs legs were broken and how could he have CRAWLED back under the fence and into the yard?

So there is an admission there that this owner was quite irresponsible as the dog had a means to get in and out of the yard. In my opinion, indoor dogs win a point here. Even if the hole was something new from that day, the dog had never dug a hole, and was oooooooh so good usually....point being...a dog outside only needs ONE afternoon to do something stupid and end up hurt or dead. 

All you people who let your dogs loose to guard...just remember this can easily be YOUR dog. One freak lighting storm rolling in in the middle of an afternoon...dog jumps the fence or anxiety digs...runs into the middle of the street. BAM.............. 

It kind of makes me sick that people are comparing keeping a dog in a crate during the day to keeping rape victims locked up? OH PLEASE! Seriously? Comparing humans and dogs in that way. Last time I checked, dogs didn't have opposable thumbs, can't cook, clean, drive, make their own meals, and get their own water from the faucet. Dogs uniformly rely on HUMANS to provide a clean, stable, supportive home for them. No, of course dogs shouldn't be kept in a crate 24/7. But dogs also do not have the thought process and ability to judge "gee, if I jump this fence because I'm freaking out about XXX" or "if I dig this hole here"...."I'm going to end up in the middle of the street, a car is going to come around the corner, I'm not going to know to run off to the side of the street, and I'm going to end up killed."

If anything, an appropriate analogy would be a toddler and a dog. No responsible parent should leave their 2 year old outside alone for extended periods of time. The 2 year old does not have the brain development and ability to care for themselves responsibly outside.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...



When I say ban I dont mean kill them all!!

They should regulate the people breeding them.
And also If GSD were starting to ALL have cracks in them Id say ONLY LET PEOPLE WITH LICENSES breed (Will never happen, but in a senario).We have all these unstable dogs running around. 
Yes, my dog is labeled "dangerous" but its the the people & the enviorment they grow up in. Also their parents have a role in how the dog acts.
My dog is the friendliest dog ever.
But if his parents & his grandparents were killing/fighting dogs, better believe some of that will be passed down....
I have never run into a mean shepherd. Pitbulls yah, bc IS SO COOL to own one & its so funny how it barks and growls at everyone.
These people shouldnt own dogs or breed them.
SOOO what I ment was only certain people should breed them & own them as pets.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the problem becomes "who should be licensed" In the majority of bills introduced to license breeders, it would put the small hobby breeder out of business. The only ones able to follow the regulations/pay the fees/etc etc would be businesses. Personally, I hope that breeder licensing never happens.

NOTE: all commercial operations (Hartz etc) are "Licensed Breeders"


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

And all it takes is a house fire and your crated/inside dog dies, score one for the outside dog, my point being everyone knows their own dogs and what suits them best, there are risks in EVERYTHING we do, I'll happily stick with my choice


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> When I say ban I dont mean kill them all!!
> ...



Not ALL pit bulls have cracks in them. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Yes, my dog is labeled "dangerous" but its the the people & the enviorment they grow up in. Also their parents have a role in how the dog acts.
> My dog is the friendliest dog ever.


That is exactly how it is for pit bulls, and any other breed the public fears. I know many pit bulls that are also the friendliest dogs ever. You wouldn't want your GSD judged by all the vicious GSDs out there right? So don't judge pit bulls as a whole because you're making contradictory statements.




> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> But if his parents & his grandparents were killing/fighting dogs, better believe some of that will be passed down....


Remember that human aggression and dog aggression are two VERY different behaviors. Pit Bulls were bred to be dog aggressive and to fight dogs, not humans. I would expect a pit bull to exhibit some levels of dog aggression, I would not expect them to be human aggressive. I would expect a GSD to be protective around strangers, I would not expect a pit bull to display ANY type of guard dog behaviors. That is a major red flag.




> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> I have never run into a mean shepherd.


I guess I've just been exposed to more dogs than you have since I've worked all kinds of dog jobs and I do intake for rescues. There was one GSD I went to evaluate at a shelter and that dog barked, growled, snapped, and lunged its head off when anyone came into its line of sight. I couldn't get anywhere near the dog because he was so aggressive.




> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> SOOO what I ment was only certain people should breed them & own them as pets.


Now that is about the only thing I agree with you on. That goes for any purebred dog, they all have their distinct traits and quirks.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsaWell, I guess people here (both for and against keeping the dog inside) are sort of forgetting...this dog OBVIOUSLY was a roamer. It says right in the first post that 2 of the dogs legs were broken and how could he have CRAWLED back under the fence and into the yard?
> 
> So there is an admission there that this owner was quite irresponsible as the dog had a means to get in and out of the yard. In my opinion, indoor dogs win a point here. Even if the hole was something new from that day, the dog had never dug a hole, and was oooooooh so good usually....point being...a dog outside only needs ONE afternoon to do something stupid and end up hurt or dead.
> 
> ...



Funny thing..I've been crating and keeping my dogs and fosters indoors for 4 years now. The only time some freak thing happened to them was when I left my husky and a foster husky in the care of my parents for a weekend while I was out of town. They left them outside in the backyard overnight and my dogs dug out under the fence and took off down the street on a joy run. They went up to a neighbor's house, scratched on the door, and the neighbor stupidly let them inside. My dogs immediately sniffed out two kittens they had and mauled them to death. The husband put a shotgun to my dog's heads and pulled the trigger but it wasn't loaded. He went back to get bullets and his wife stopped them because she knew they were my dogs. 

You just never know and you really can't argue that dogs are safer outdoors than indoors. My dogs have zero access to cords when they are crated. It's also nice not having to worry about ticks and that outside dog smell.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs are safer in my runs than in my house. The runs are covered over and have a concrete base, so there is no climbing or jumping over and no digging under. The wire is nine gage, and so far that has held. 

The house has not been so lucky. I have had a dog go through the window three times, luckily it was my bedroom window to the back yard. If it was my front window, the dog could be history. 

I left home this morning at nine oclock, and I have not been home yet. That is twelve hours. That would be inhumane in a crate in my opinion. I prefer dogs to be able to move about, rest, drink, and relieve themselves. With the other dogs in their separate kennels, they are not completely alone either, so it works out well. 

When a dog wriggles out of, jumps, breaks through, digs under a fence and gets free, the consequences could affect the owner, and it could affect ALL owners of the breed and other breeds with equal reputations. The ONLY way we can combat breed bans is to stamp out irresponsible ownership with education. 

People who get on these threads and say, my dogs are perfectly safe in my yard while I am away are not doing the breed any favors. Because maybe their dogs are safe. But the newbie who thinks the rest of us on here are out of our minds, may not have dogs that are as well trained, well worked, and trustworthy, and his fences may not be as secure. 

Pit bull owners who let their dogs get loose and then whine and cry when someone shoots their dog ought to be slapped by other pit bull owners. Just like GSD owners who hear about GSDs being left to roam should be kicking some GSD-owner-butt.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Selzer, haven't you posted a photo of your kennel set up before? If people absolutely must keep their dogs outside all day/night your set up is definitely how I would recommend to do it, not just left loose to their own devices. In fact I would love a set up like that when I have a house for times when I might be painting or there are maintenance guys over, family, or whatever..it'd be nice to let the dogs hang out in a nice run and get some fresh air knowing they are secure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MustloveGSDs, thank you. Having a secure run for each dog is great, but I would do a lot different if I was beginning again. The slope would be twice what it is, I would have built the room all the way out and had an indoor/outdoor run for each dog. And it would be located somewhere it does not rain or snow 98% of the time. 

In my next life, I am going to be be exactly what I am now, but with lots of money, LOL.

Mine come in at night, but with houses in their shelters, they can be left out at night in a pinch.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Well I wish I had money period to build cool projects 

I've got all these plans in mind but I have a looooooong way to go, my $7.50/hr doggie daycare job doesn't necessarily bring home the bacon. Luckily BF is a big dog lover/sucker and gives into my desires, lol.


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