# Breeding unsocial dogs



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

My question is if a male or female dog does not get along with other dogs is it still a good breeder?I have seen some dogs from some kennels being bred that are not friendly with other dogs is this a good breeding practice or not?How much of being not dog friendly is genetic and how much is just not good training?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Dogs have different temperaments. There are some females that will NEVER get along with other females, yet just fine with males. Nothing wrong with that. NOW, if the dog wanted to kill every dog it saw, male or female? Then no I wouldn't


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I have no idea of how bad these dogs are.The one I know of was given to a different breeder because her set up was less family like so she would be able to be separate from other dogs.The other says it prefers to be with an only dog family.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

That's hard to say, but I would not want a dog with those traits myself. 
Our big male, Brago, is very neutral to other dogs, even other males. My husband has used him to help people with dog-aggressive dogs desensitize them. I especially would not want a pup from a dog-aggressive female. 
It's very hard to put a percentage on nature/nurture, but why propagate an undesireable trait? 
Also, not "getting along" with other dogs is kind of vague. You mean that the dog isn't the life of the party at the dog park? or the dog will try to kill every other dog on sight? The former is not a big deal, I should be the main attraction for my dog anyway. The latter is a big problem.

Angela is right, too. Some females are NOT going to accept another female for any reqason, but will be just fine with males.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Breeding a dog with dog aggression, I would think the dog would have to a lot of other things to offer the breed. Aggression can be over come with training and the dog can be taught to be nice but she'll still have that tendency to be snarky with other dogs.

Since I have a female who appears to not like other dogs I'm going to answer that part of the question lol. It's nature (or genetic). Morgan has had the maximum socialization with other dogs. She's lived with other dogs most of her life. I have lots of friends with dogs. Most of my neighbors have dogs - big dogs like her. 

She must control them, it's just her nature. She doesn't run right up and bite other dogs or bark at them. She's been trained not to but if they annoy her, her tendency is to get aggressive. Trouble with her is I always know she's annoyed in hindsight - don't ever see why it happened until after the incident. 

Certainly not how she was nurtured, when she was a pup she had Luther and Luther LOVED other dogs. He was a dog's dog, friend to all dogs. I'd take him to the park and let him run, other dogs would approach and he'd lay down, making himself very small so they would want to play with him. Luther would take a lot of crap from another dog before he'd growl at them.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I personally wouldn't want to breed a dog with dog aggression, but then again I think all dogs should get along. In a perfect world .. *L*

The problem with having a bitch that has a temperament trait that isn't desirable is that she is a huge part of the "nurture" for the first formative eight weeks of those puppies lives. They're going to copy her. So any aggression, nervousness, anxiety, barkiness, etc. is going to be taught to those puppies from a very early age. I wouldn't want to buy a pup that came from a bitch with dog aggression.

There are a LOT of good breeding dogs out there - why breed one that has a bad trait? (Unless the dog is just plain perfect every other way, and you're willing to go to great lengths to keep the pups from developing that trait).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Really depends on what is meant by "not good with other dogs". If it is bonified dog aggression, or insecurity/fear based aggression toward other dogs, I wouldn't consider that appropriate for breeding.

If it is a dominant dog or a dog who is simply intolerant of rude and inappropriate behavior on the part of other dogs, than IMO that is a different story. 

GSDs and other working breeds really aren't intended to be typical "dog park" dogs in the sense that they love every other dog and want to be friends with it. They should be stable and trustworthy around other dogs, and willing and able to completely tune out the presence of other dogs in order to focus on their job, but that's about it. And of course, much of this comes down to socialization and training, not just genetics, which in turn reflects the priorities of the owner.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If a puppy is removed from a litter too early, like 4 weeks, or is the only pup in a litter, they often become intolerant of other dogs because they didnot learn certain things doing that period of 5 to 8 weeks that includes 'DOG" SOCIALIZATION. This can happen as a result of something happening to the mother so I don't want to hear about its irresposible to remove a puppy to early. The POINT is the underlying cause of these dog's aggression is nurture or lack of nurture and it is not genetic in that it would be passed. So again you must have knowledge of history of dog to even answer this question to my way of thinking.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> The POINT is the underlying cause of these dog's aggression is nurture or lack of nurture and it is not genetic in that it would be passed.


As Melanie points out, though, traits that may not specifically genetic in origin passed too though:



> Quote:
> 
> The problem with having a bitch that has a temperament trait that isn't desirable is that she is a huge part of the "nurture" for the first formative eight weeks of those puppies lives. They're going to copy her. So any aggression, nervousness, anxiety, barkiness, etc. is going to be taught to those puppies from a very early age. I wouldn't want to buy a pup that came from a bitch with dog aggression.


We leave pups (or we should leave pups) with mom for at least 7- 8 weeks because we want them to have all the benefits of socialization with her. If mom is a bad role model though, that's a problem. If the bitch got off to a bad start for whatever reason, that's a shame. But that doesn't mean that bad traits should be passed along. Or even (in my lay opinion) that a breeder should risk it. How do you ultimately know if this is the result of bad nerves or bad socialization? 

I'm not talking about a female that's snarky with other females in her pack. I'm talking about a dog that is actually dog aggressive. 

I guess my question back to someone who might be willing to breed a dog aggressive dog is, are you willing to tell me, your potential buyer, that mom has dog aggression so I can make a fully informed decision?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whitney is a dog that would prefer to be in a one dog family. She is NOT dog aggressive though. She just screams every time I pay attention to another dog like I am sticking something in her eye. She is getting better about it, but it drives me nuts. She would be happier as the center of the universe. 

The only one I currently have that may be dog aggressive is Ninja. We are working on that, and as she is nine months old and in heat, maybe the jury is still out on that yet. She is fine with my dogs, but she will bark and lunge at outside dogs. I wonder if she got this behavior from Dubya. He started this crap when he was about a year old. I figured it was poor socialization. In any case, he did not pass it down to all of his progeny.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
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> > Quote:
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After being on this forum that is a question I will be asking next time around.I saw the dam of my girl and she seemed friendly,no other dogs were around to see that side of her.I later found out she does not like to be with other dogs.I don't know the details so I don't know if it is males or females or any dog.I also don't know if she is intolerant or aggressive.I have discussed this with my trainer and he isn't sure if it is a factor or not.I have contacted 2 other littermates and they supposedly have no dog problems.I guess Athena's problem is my fault,a lesson I have learned if I am able to do it again.


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

AllieG said:


> 3K9Mom said:
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> > > Quote:
> ...


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Karla,
I agree.Some of her problem is taking her to obedience.Unfortunately the trainer had me go with the wrong approach and I think it hurt her.I think it scared her to be in the room with all these dogs and not be able to greet them and possible play the way she wanted to.I think she was trying to play nice even though I agree she was scared and then was told not to and be quiet.She was confused and doesn't know how to properly greet dogs.In the perfect world dogs wouldn't have to be leashed or told they can't socialize with there peers.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think this is a very interesting topic, in that it talks about what constitutes dog aggression. I think you need to be able to define that before you can look at counting out a breeding dog. This hits a little close to home at the moment because I'm dealing with my male dog who's just turned 2, and I'm pretty sure he's starting to feel out his dominance with other dogs although I've been asked if he's dog aggressive. 

I'm sure I haven't seen as many dogs as a lot of people on this forum, but I think most can agree that just because there is a dogfight, we're not necessarily talking about dog aggression. I find myself agreeing with Chris Wild (not a big surprise because I usually think she's pretty spot on). I think that a lot of dog aggression is fear based or from a lack of leadership, and I think that would be due to an underlying temperament problem or lack of socialization. There are dogs though, that despite a lack of socialization are still pretty rock solid, so I don't know exactly what that means. But dominant dogs will fight to maintain their position if given the opportunity, and it seems to me that often, especially in working GSDs, a certain amount of dominance is to be desired. 

Now, my male dog is just over 2, and we have a 6 and 1/2 year old in the house as well. They are both intact and cannot run together. I can walk them on leash together provided I keep myself between them, they will down stay within 3 feet of each other, both are good with my bitch and our friend's puppies, and they can go by each others crates in the house, but 2 dominant males with the mindset that ANYTHING is a toy worth possessing is just asking for trouble. They would fight over socks, water bowls, sticks, leaves, holes in the ground...whatever. Dog aggressive? No I don't think so. But try to explain that to the average person who doesn't understand why they're teeth bared, snarling at each other over some stupid stick (This happened once and I learned my lesson, they don't hang out anymore). I also wouldn't let my bitch go out with another female unless it was submissive. 

I don't think I would want to buy a dog from truly dog aggressive parents because I think there is a certain genetic component. I think I prefer to train my dogs to look at other dogs as light poles, just another piece of the background, not as peers or potential friends.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have two females that literally can't stand each other, a look from one or the other at 30 ft will start the growling and snarling. They are both fine with other dogs male and female.

With JKlatsky's example he has two strong males who will fight for top dog. I don't see that as dog aggressive. Those are just strong dogs who want to be #1. 

Cliff, I had one of those special pups I got a 5 weeks old. He was not dog aggressive, but he didn't jump for joy at other dogs with the I want to play, I want to play. He would just look at them like what ever, I have no desire to play with you or I have no clue why you are barking your fool head off at me. 

Before I bought DeeDee I did pass on a breeding because the female was aggressive with ALL other females. I am not sure if she passed that on to her pups, I just wasn't willing to find out. So instead I got DeeDee and she and Cheyenne can't stand each other, so that worked out well for me. But I love them for who and what they are. 

Val


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Whar about male dogs that are aggressive by nuture, tell me how they affect the puppies in passing this on?????


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Whar about male dogs that are aggressive by nuture, tell me how they affect the puppies in passing this on?????


No one says anything about the Sir.They must play a part if it is genetic.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry, I thought the original question was about a male or female being dog aggressive and breeding possibilities....and I also thought some people felt that they wouldn't breed dog aggressive dogs and i just felt that the some of the reasons were not looking at all aspects. One of my best brood bitches over the years, (Alk v Osterberg-Quelle daughter), was super dog aggressive to the point that she and her son(he was 18 months) went at it to the point that I got bit up. Fantastic mother and produced dogs that the agencies and the families that received them loved. Again, I guess I just live in another world.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I happen to agree with Cliff except in the case of a female that can not be bred naturally. If she must be bred AI because she is too dog aggressive then she does NOT need to have puppies.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthI happen to agree with Cliff except in the case of a female that can not be bred naturally. If she must be bred AI because she is too dog aggressive then she does NOT need to have puppies.


I totally agree with that.What if a male can't do it naturally because of aggression? If I were a breeder I don't think I would continue his line but what do you breeders do?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Either gender, doesn't matter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dubya was somewhat dog aggressive. He was Babs' sire, Ninja' grand sire. 

He was attacked at 7 weeks of age and given a bloody cut. After that nothing until about 10 months when he was in classes and was afraid of the pug. At 1 he started barking and lunging at dogs, and then I did the stupid thing and listened to a "trainer" and kept him away from other dogs. 

He was ok with my own dogs and never caused any dog or person an injury. 

I was able to leave him at two separate bitches' homes so that he could be used for stud, he was fine with that. 

In public he would act stupid though. 

Not sure if it was nature or nurture. Most of his progeny do not have this problem. Males that have not gone to classes and have not been well-socialized do not tolerate strange dogs in their yards. I only kept females, and they are fine, except for Ninja and we are working on that.


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