# Need advice on German Shepherd with high prey drive (just killed one of my pets)



## kindhearted

Hello, I'm looking for some advice on my spayed 3 1/2 years old pure bred German Shepherd. I had got her when she was 7 weeks old. 3 days ago, she killed one of my pet bunnies who was 6 years old. I take full responsibility for this and I know this was my fault and not the dog. 

Let me tell you my situation. I have a separate outside add-on hallway that the dog isn't allowed in and it's strictly for the bunnies (and cat) to get their exercise. Some days when it's hot and they can't go out there, I'll let them exercise in my bedroom supervised with me in there, and the door locked. There hasn't ever been a time when I let the bunnies loose in my bedroom without me in there with them. 

So 3 days ago (Friday) I was in a rush to go out and meet with some friends. I took my rabbits out of their cages in my bedroom to let them out for exercise because I haven't gotten around to letting them out for the whole day so I felt bad. I cannot lock my bedroom door unless I am actually in the room with them. So the door wasn't locked, but was fully shut when I left. Basically I planned on only being out for 10 minutes (this is why I allowed the bunnies out and didn't think much of it)...well 10 minutes turned into an hour and a half.

I got home, couldn't find my dog anywhere because she always barks when someone is at the door. So I check all the rooms, then finally checked my bedroom last, and she comes busting out of there. That's when I saw my poor bunny laying in the middle of the floor with her neck snapped and leg broke. There weren't any bite marks or even a single drop of blood so I'm thinking the dog literally trampled her with her paws by putting all of her weight on her. The other bunny was alive and hiding behind my large entertainment center.

The dog's crate is also in my bedroom where the bunnies are kept in their cages, the cages are high enough to where she cannot get them. However I cannot trust this dog around these animals now. The dog is crate trained however, if one of the animals walk past her crate and if she's inside it, she will bark and lunge at my yorkies and cat like she is guarding her territory. I feel that she gets more frustrated in the crate so this is why I gave her a little bit of freedom roaming the house. Plus whenever I leave the house, I leave her out because I want her to protect the house if any intruders were to come in.

She is fine with the other dogs in the house, she got into 2 serious scuffles before but she was corrected and never happened again. We never ever let the yorkies alone with her when no one is home, we put our yorkies in the master bedroom and just leave her out. All of the yorkies are dominant with her and will put her in her place when needed. 
The cat has a large tree house so she stays up there all day until the dog goes back in her crate.

We have a screened in lanai with an inground pool that she enjoys very much. One of my yorkies likes to bark and run around the pool like a nut, so the German Shepherd will go into stalk mode, lock her eyes on him and then chase him and mouth him while growling. My other yorkie who is calm, doesn't run around the pool so the Shepherd is fine with her and won't go after her. 

These are all of the problems we have with her. She isn't aggressive towards me or anyone at all, and she knows commands such as sit, down, stay, paw, roll over, ect. But whenever she gets fixated on something (other pets) she ignores my commands and I have a hard time snapping her out of that state of mind. I cannot pick up and hold my cat in front of her because she will jump on me and try to take the cat with her mouth. The cat will hiss, growl, and spit at her which makes her even more excited and prone to chase her. 
When I hold the bunnies and get them to calm down, I'll show them to the dog but not put them on the floor, she will lick them and won't try to bark at them as long as i'm keeping them still and calm. But when I carry them to a room, she gets very excited and tries to mouth them. Also when she is in her crate in my bedroom, and when I take the bunnies out of the cages, that's when she lunges and barks.

I'm really having a hard time understanding all of this behavior, and after this tragedy happened, it really has opened my eyes that I need some serious training to do with her, and I have let her get away with to much. I love her and honestly don't think I could get rid of her like everyone is telling me to do. 
I've grown up with German Shepherds, but they all never had high prey drive so bad like my dog does.

I need all the tips and advice I can get. Also has anyone else had their GSD kill one of their pets?


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## msvette2u

My sheltie mix killed a bottle baby goat we had. Our hearts were broke, and this baby goat was gorgeous, a lovely baby.
It's just how dogs are


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## Sunflowers

Sorry this happened to you.


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## marshies

At least there were no bite marks or blood. It was likely really just an accident. Rabbits are very very delicate and their little bones can be broken easily. My dog would try the same things as your dog if she were left alone with the rabbit. I can't really blame her since I play with toys that encourage prey drive.

More knowledgeable members can chime in on training solutions, but I recommend better containment.

Your dogs and your rabbits don't need to be friends. The poor rabbit has nothing to gain from this arrangement. Please contain and secure them better. In case something like this happens again, maybe put more shelters for them in your room that they can run to.

I'm sorry this happenend as well. Feel better.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I have two rabbits and a GSD. The rabbits live indoors in bunny condos. My dog can see them, but ignores them. My rabbits only have play time when the dog is locked on another level and we are there. Matter of fact, the rabbits are not a bonded pair and cannot be together. They would kill each other. I would never, never, never trust my dog not to kill a small animal. That is asking too much. Now that you know your dog can and will, beef up your containment. It is the best solution.


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## marbury

There's certainly no reason to get rid of your dog, the folks who are telling you that probably don't have much experience with breeds that have any kind of natural drive.

Just be more careful next time, if you're anything like me you'll never make the mistake again. It sucks that it happened, and the best you can hope for was that your dog got in there and did the duty with one quick snap so the bunny didn't suffer. If you aren't renting you could always grab some really basic hook-and-latch hardware from Home Depot to secure the door you can't lock from the outside if you have to do the same thing with the bunnies in the future.

Good news; your dog has drive! Try lure coursing or a flirt pole, your dog will probably love it. Channel those behaviors into something fun for everybody, and something that doesn't end with blood. If you know anyone locally who is into herding maybe they can help you each basic herding skills. I have a ton of fun, and I'm a complete novice. But that drive can be locked onto sheep and they learn a lot of self-control.

My dogs haven't killed anything, I raised them around ferrets and rats. I would never leave them unsupervised, of course. But I know for sure that one of my GSDs would snap a cat in half if I'd let her. My neighbor's cat, though... she's just a cold blooded killer. Can't trust them cats!


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## msvette2u

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I have two rabbits and a GSD. The rabbits live indoors in bunny condos. My dog can see them, but ignores them. My rabbits only have play time when the dog is locked on another level and we are there. Matter of fact, the rabbits are not a bonded pair and cannot be together. They would kill each other. * I would never, never, never trust my dog not to kill a small animal.* That is asking too much. Now that you know your dog can and will, beef up your containment. It is the best solution.


As a rescue we sometimes have people who have bunnies or ferrets or birds.
I tell them the same thing.
I agree, containment, super strong and don't let the dog be loose in the house, ever, unless the rabbits are way away, behind a locked door, etc.
But even then I don't know as I'd leave the dog loose in the house with them.
We have Dachshunds here. They are hounds bred for killing badgers. They are hunters extraordinaire. We do not have any small fuzzies for that reason, although I'd dearly love to purchase a pet baby skunk :wub:

BTW herding instinct is just prey drive that's been modified to where the dog doesn't "finish" the chase with a kill. 
Many individuals within the herding breeds out there have not been trained to _not_ kill, or the drive wasn't completed and they do kill, instead of just herd. 
My Libby is one of them


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## NWHeather

I'm sorry that you lost one of your beloved pets 
I agree, there's no reason for you to get rid of your dog & anyone saying so doesn't understand the prey drive in dogs.

I keep ferrets as well, & have had cats in the past. Luckily, my dogs got along just fine with my cats. Now if any other cat crosses my dogs paths, my female will chase them-I don't *think* she would hurt them, based on her living with my cats, but I know that there's potential for that, so I keep her inline.

My ferrets are never out with my dogs, even though my dogs have never shown any aggression toward them, I know that there's a logical chance that either one of my dogs could kill any one of my ferrets, even if accidently.

On the note of ferrets, I have seen many people that have lost birds, due to their ferrets killing them. 

Unfortunately, it's something we need to keep in mind, when keeping varied species of animals.


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## lorihd

sorry to hear about your bunny  i have to be on top of things when my budgies are flying around, lexie would love to nail one. I would never trust her with the birds, never! but sometimes accidents do happen


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## GatorDog

Aiden would kill a small animal like that in an instant if I let him. I could never ever let him around one without expecting some damage to be done. Unfortunately, it's the way of the breed and accidents happen.


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## CarrieJ

GSDs are clever dogs. I don't know how many that I've run into that can open round door knobs.
All dogs are predators and have some amount of prey drive. At my house Zoey the weasel terrier has a higher drive than Alice the GSD. Partially due the fact that I didn't really raise Zoey (my mother did) and I did raise Alice. Zoey still hunts and kills rats and really reacts to the cat if I accidently step on it (yeah, I'm clumsy).
Knowing that Zoey would be living with us (she's small white and squeaky) and I have two cats. One dog savvy and one not; one of them makes a weird sound and runs. That's pretty much a trigger for any prey driven animal. So, with Alice the GSD I deliberately avoided flirt poles and squeaky toys. The squeaky toys encourge the prey driven behavior.
Watch a dog with a squeaky toy. They grab it, it squeaks, then they shake it. The shake is a kill move. Or, they lay down and tear the squeaker out and then walk away. They walk away because "it's dead" no more encouragement.

I would consider your situation an accident. The dog probably just shook the rabbit. It is a positive thing that your GSD did not continue to stalk the remaining rabbit or eat the one that got killed. When a dog is (I'm stuggling for the right word here so please excuse me) allowed (?) or put in a situation to eat a small animal (chicken, rabbit, etc) that it has killed; it has actually not only encouraged the prey drive but rewarded it. Steady meals at regular times help lower the predatory drive as well.

I am sorry for the loss of your pet.
I definitely know that both of my girls would "pack up" if put into the same situation.


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## kiya

Sorry to hear about your bunny. I do not encourage my dogs to chase critters in my yard, but they do. Years ago a bunny was in the yard, I didn't know and let the dogs out. They were on the bunny in no time. The poor thing tried to get thru the chain link and got stuck. All I could do was hold back my female, Chazzy and Cheyenne my male didn't pursue. The bunny was bleeding but managed to squeeze thru the fence.
Your dog is normal, every one of my females have an incredibly strong prey drive.
The only thing you can do is be sure to never let it happen again.


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## kindhearted

Thanks for the support I appreciate it. What is the difference if a dog would of actually tore and ripped into the bunny? (eat it, ect.) My dog didn't do that, thankfully the poor bunny was in one piece. 

Also what should I do about the whole crate thing where she lunges and barks at the animals walking by? Such as my other dogs and cat.
Should I move her into a different room or what? 

I think I've given her to much freedom around the house.


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## Cheerful1

CarrieJ: the description of a dog and its squeaky toy gave me chills. I don't like those toys to begin with because they're so annoying, but are we encouraging anything bad by letting Joey play with them since he already has a high prey drive?


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## kindhearted

Oh and I'll also mention that, she likes my 2 pet rats and will actually put them in her mouth and carry them around the house. One rat likes it, the other doesn't. I thought it was cute and she didn't seem she was hurting them because she was gentle. But after this happened, that'll be coming to an end as well.

I don't understand how she didn't kill the rats but managed to kill my bunny.


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## msvette2u

The rabbit may have broken it's own neck or back. 
When we first moved here, a coyote got to one of our outdoor rabbits. 
The remaining rabbit broke it's own back by thumping so hard 

And rabbits are incredibly fragile. Plus you were not there to stop things. You seem to be there when the rats are handled by the dog. 
Either way, it's a very risky move, and could result in one of the rats being killed.


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## kindhearted

msvette2u said:


> The rabbit may have broken it's own neck or back.
> When we first moved here, a coyote got to one of our outdoor rabbits.
> The remaining rabbit broke it's own back by thumping so hard
> 
> And rabbits are incredibly fragile. Plus you were not there to stop things. You seem to be there when the rats are handled by the dog.
> Either way, it's a very risky move, and could result in one of the rats being killed.


Sorry to hear about that  I know they are very delicate, I had her for 6 years and bottle fed her when she was a baby. she was such a good little bun and trusted all of the animals here. I still can't forgive myself for this.
I just didn't think she would go in my room if it was shut. Then again I now know she knows how to open door handles.

What's the difference if a dog just literally tore up the pet (blood everywhere, ect) and if they only just trampled them...shook them or whatever. If there was blood, would it have been an aggressive attack? 

I'm still trying to find out the differences and what I can do about stricter training with her


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## msvette2u

Well there's not really a difference other than maybe degrees.
Your GSD may have thought she was "playing" with the rabbit. Perhaps she wasn't being "mean" but just being too rough. 
Either way you can't trust her around small fuzzies. 
As far as stricter training, that's not going to help as much as making your home a Ft. Knox for her, so she can't have a chance to get at the small animals any longer.


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## Skribbles

Sorry to hear. 

We have a bearded dragon that had free reign of the house before we got our dog. Now we only let the beardie out when we're home but even then it is worrisome. The dog doesn't attack it but she does paw at it in a playful manner which could be deadly.


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## kindhearted

Should I move her crate into a different room and train her not to go in my room where the cages are?


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## middleofnowhere

You don't let the dog with the small animals however you choose to do it. I would forget "training" the dog to stay out of the room with the cages - I'd train myself to close the door!


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## frillint1

When Smokey was yought he killed one of my birds and 4 of my rabbits. I had them living outside somehow Smokey tore the bottoms of their huts out. Well I woke up to rabbit parts all over my yard. Although now that Smokey is an inside dog not outside like then he has changed and I trust him with my Guinea pigs. He loves them and they will curl up and fall asleep on him. Chief can see the Guinea pigs, but I wouldn't trust him. He has ran after and almost got our escape artist hamster, so Guinea pigs are off limits to him. I have them in a two story cage and that bedroom door always shut.


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## Ucdcrush

Sorry to hear about the rabbit. What the dog did with the rabbit when you were not around most likely indicates only that the dog didn't have enough structured time being around the rabbit when you were around to keep things civil.

Better containment is surely one solution. BUT it sounds like there are behavioral issues with this dog where it fixates, where it barks/lunges at the other dogs, doesn't listen, etc. In my opinion, with the right environment, all animals should be able to hang out together without one animal deciding he's going to attack (or abuse) another animal. This certainly goes for the dogs.. those Yorkies and the German Shepherd should get along fine, and should defer to you.

I think this is a situation where the best thing to do would be to bring in a balanced trainer -- someone who uses more than a clicker -- to evaluate the situation to get the canines in line. It's likely that the Yorkies have some behavioral issues too, after all they are in the same environment.

Ideally, and it's VERY possible for you to get to this place, there would be no cages separating the dogs, and physical barriers would be minimal. When the environment is right, the dogs respect barriers/rules dictated by the owner without the need for leashes or crates etc. When you have that sort of controlled calm environment between the dogs, you can then proceed to introduce them to the other animals. And you can end up with a calm group of animals that can get along.

For safety's sake though, with a small or fragile animal, if you're not around to supervise then certainly keep them separate. But if they are allowed to mingle while you are around and you are enforcing rules, even if a physical barrier failed in the future, the dogs would not be as inclined to attack/abuse the other animals that they are accustom to peacefully coexisting with.


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## CarrieJ

Cheerful1 said:


> CarrieJ: the description of a dog and its squeaky toy gave me chills. I don't like those toys to begin with because they're so annoying, but are we encouraging anything bad by letting Joey play with them since he already has a high prey drive?


You know, I don't really know. Each dog in his/her environment is different and each owner has different goals for his/her dog. If you live in the country and have small prey animals (chickens, rabbits, goats, etc.) it may not be a good idea to have a flirt pole. A chuckit, ball and a solid recall will exercise your dog better and help build your bond with the dog.
Some of the people here with more experience with working ScH dogs and Herding dogs could probably answer that question.
I would think that you wouldn't want a dog to kill the sheep, just bring them in for shearing.

Some GSDs and other working type dogs consider a good training session the ultimate play. The reward is a joy to see, when they "get it" well, in my opinion.

As far as separating the dog in this case....I wouldn't. I would never keep my dog out of my bedroom at night. Even as a puppy, she was crated right next to my bed. She's a dog. They are pack animals. Even ferals live in big family groups. I don't think isolation of a pack animal/family member is ever a good idea.
I think a better latch on the door or something up high where the dog can't reach would be better.


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## Chris Wild

I'm sorry this happened. But I really think that when one is housing a dog of any breed or drive level and rabbits that this could happen. Dogs are carnivorous predators, and rabbits are one of the top items on the menu. Domestication doesn't remove a dog's base instincts. It is possible that it was an accident and the dog was playing or stepped on the rabbit, as rabbits are very fragile. But I think it is just as likely that the dog saw the rabbit as prey and responded out of instinct. The lack of blood or tooth marks doesn't eliminate that possibility. Dogs tend to kill small animals by grabbing and shaking, which breaks their neck and spine.

Certainly the higher drive the dog the more likely this is to happen, but it can happen with ANY dog. Yes, dogs can be taught to view specific small animals as family members and not prey, but that takes time and training and is best started at puppyhood, not with an adult. And not all dogs are capable of that. I really think that the only safe and fair way to keep any dog in a home with rabbits is to keep them entirely separated.


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## msvette2u

In other words, their brains are hard-wired to kill small fuzzy things.
It's biology, not a "bad dog" that training will fix.



> In my opinion, with the right environment, all animals should be able to hang out together without one animal deciding he's going to attack (or abuse) another animal.


I can't decide if you're actually assigning a moral compass to dogs (don't kill my fuzzy friend, can't you see it's my friend/pet??) or you're saying enough training will curb a dog's instinct to kill small fuzzy things.


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## Chris Wild

msvette2u said:


> In other words, their brains are hard-wired to kill small fuzzy things.
> It's biology, not a "bad dog" that training will fix.


Exactly.

I don't mean to downplay the tragedy, but would anyone be surprised if the family cat killed the pet mouse that had gotten out of it's cage? It's really the exact same thing.


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## kindhearted

Ucdcrush said:


> Sorry to hear about the rabbit. What the dog did with the rabbit when you were not around most likely indicates only that the dog didn't have enough structured time being around the rabbit when you were around to keep things civil.
> 
> Better containment is surely one solution. BUT it sounds like there are behavioral issues with this dog where it fixates, where it barks/lunges at the other dogs, doesn't listen, etc. In my opinion, with the right environment, all animals should be able to hang out together without one animal deciding he's going to attack (or abuse) another animal. This certainly goes for the dogs.. those Yorkies and the German Shepherd should get along fine, and should defer to you.
> 
> I think this is a situation where the best thing to do would be to bring in a balanced trainer -- someone who uses more than a clicker -- to evaluate the situation to get the canines in line. It's likely that the Yorkies have some behavioral issues too, after all they are in the same environment.
> 
> Ideally, and it's VERY possible for you to get to this place, there would be no cages separating the dogs, and physical barriers would be minimal. When the environment is right, the dogs respect barriers/rules dictated by the owner without the need for leashes or crates etc. When you have that sort of controlled calm environment between the dogs, you can then proceed to introduce them to the other animals. And you can end up with a calm group of animals that can get along.
> 
> For safety's sake though, with a small or fragile animal, if you're not around to supervise then certainly keep them separate. But if they are allowed to mingle while you are around and you are enforcing rules, even if a physical barrier failed in the future, the dogs would not be as inclined to attack/abuse the other animals that they are accustom to peacefully coexisting with.


The bunnies were always separate except when they were in the cages with the doors shut. She knew she couldn't get them so she would leave them alone so I figured that was okay because in that way she could get used to their smell, and presence. That'll be changing now though, I put the cage in a different room and i'm training her to stay out of that particular room.

She only lunges at the dogs when she is in the crate out of frustration it seems. Other than that, she's fine. One dominant female yorkie she won't mess with at all because she kicks her ass (lol) 

I'm working on clicker training with her, i'm teaching her to stay away from the cat's tree house. And I'm giving her more exercise than usual which seems to be calming her a bit. But she still gets excited if the cat is up and running.
I guess I'll just have to wait it out and be more stern with her, as I was giving her to much freedom before.


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## Ucdcrush

msvette2u said:


> I can't decide if you're actually assigning a moral compass to dogs (don't kill my fuzzy friend, can't you see it's my friend/pet??) or you're saying enough training will curb a dog's instinct to kill small fuzzy things.


Sort of #2. I agree #2 is possible, but I am making a distinction between ANY small fuzzy thing and the small fuzzy things that the human oversees.

If you read my reply I was describing an environment where the human ruled the roost. In those environments, a dog does not decide he's going to kill the family cat just because it's small/fuzzy and runs around, exciting prey drive. The human has set the proper "rules" and the dog doesn't consider messing with the cat an option. I'm not sure where you came up with "moral compass".

Now there is a difference between taking a dog and the cat it lives with, and putting them in the same room, vs taking the same dog and dropping a random strange cat into the picture. THAT difference is what I'm talking about -- the dog has learned through boundaries, experience, etc. that the family cat is not to be killed. The family cat is part of the group animals the dog can coexist with.


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## msvette2u

> I guess I'll just have to wait it out and be more stern with her, as I was giving her to much freedom before.


To the OP - it's instinctual to chase (and harm/kill) furry things, even if by accident and the fact the dog is so much larger than prey items. You have to accept this in the pet - being "more stern" isn't going to fix your problem.



> In those environments, a dog does not decide he's going to kill the family cat just because it's small/fuzzy and runs around, exciting prey drive. The human has set the proper "rules" and the dog doesn't consider messing with the cat an option. I'm not sure where you came up with "moral compass".


The "moral compass" is assuming your dog should know it's your family pet and not kill it because it's a part of the family. Why would it "know" that? Dogs can't know or "care about" those things. Dogs are hardwired to go after prey. You can't make a dog realize that "Oh this is the FAMILY cat - yah, I can't eat it, but here's the neighbor's cat, we don't care about that cat, so it's fair game!" Why would it know, or care about that?

As for a strange cat vs. a family cat - no, it won't matter. You can train the living daylights out of your dog and yes, eventually trust it if you're in the same room. But hardwired beats guilt/training any ol' day. So always separate them and never trust them. A cat killer is a cat killer, if it's your Fluffy or the neighbor's Muffy or a strange cat that wandered in off the streets. 

I do believe intensive training like clicker training and desensitization could work to eventually get the dog to where it doesn't kill the cat right in front of you. 

Personally, if I knew a dog had history of killing cats, or might/would kill a cat, I'd not have that dog around cats or other small furries. Management would be my goal at that point. 
We actually do have Dachshunds, born and bred to hunt and kill. We don't have small furries where they can get at them. That simple. And if our management fails and a small furry dies at their paws/teeth, it's our fault, not theirs.


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## BlackthornGSD

Based on your description in the first post, I think you should work with your dog to get control of situations that are high stimulation times--such as around the pool and if you are holding the cat. The dog should be able to be obedient and responsive to you at these times. 

I have a couple of dogs who will ignore a cat on the ground (mostly) but view me picking the cat up as *me* starting a prey attack on that cat and they seek to join in the "game" -- so your picking up a cat or bunny can actually stimulate a prey response. 

However, coming up and actually biting the cat in my arms is a problem on two levels--one is a matter of respect and the other is an issue of having a controllable response to the stimulus. My dog is no more allowed to bite a cat in my arms than he is allowed to knock his food bowl out of my hand or bite a bone I have not yet offered him or to take a steak off my dinner plate--if I am holding it, I *own* it--and I consider that a matter of manners and respect.

However, even if you gain better control with training, this training will *not* change the dog's natural and instinctive response to a prey stimulus if you are not there to control the situation and "remind" the dog of the rules. 

So, work on the control for the dog and make sure you don't leave your more vulnerable pets exposed in the future--if you're not there, they need to be secured by barriers/crates/cages/walls, etc.


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## MaggieRoseLee

kindhearted said:


> Thanks for the support I appreciate it. What is the difference if a dog would of actually tore and ripped into the bunny? (eat it, ect.) My dog didn't do that, thankfully the poor bunny was in one piece.
> 
> Also what should I do about the whole crate thing where she lunges and barks at the animals walking by? Such as my other dogs and cat.
> Should I move her into a different room or what?
> 
> I think I've given her to much freedom around the house.


I'm a bit confused about many of the replies people are giving.

Just cause I have a GSD, I certainly don't EXPECT them to kill things. Specially any small animals I have in the house. And have had in the house since the puppy was 7 weeks old.

What I do know about MY GSD's is they are very smart and can be trained.

So instead of just separating my dogs from my other pets (adding to the excitement and intrigue by exclusion).

I, brace myself, hold onto your hats...................

I train my dogs. Really! How unexpected :wild:

I have a 'leave it' command. I have an attention command (look at me). I would set up my dogs to suceed (and bunnies to live ) by MANAGING the training situations to TEACH my pups that a bunny is no different from my cat. 

And I've never had my cats or EXPECTED my cats to be killed by my dogs, oh just cause they are GSD's.......

So before everyone over reacts with the 'it's nature and my dogs kill outside' type thing. I will say that outdoors with wildlife is harder. And to call my dogs off a running bunny or squirrel or deer is much much harder.

BUT to me there is a huge difference between a wild animal running away (dog doesn't know that wild animal, that wild animal doesn't know my dog) and MY pet rabbit being out with MY dogs. 

Now would I leave them all running loose together in the house 24/7? Probably not so much. But would I EXPECT my dog to kill the tame bunny just sitting there in the hallway? No way.

EITHER WAY, I wouldn't get rid of my dog cause I failed to do the training I should have. My fault, not the dog's. However, I'd step up the training so it wouldn't happen again.


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## msvette2u

If you mean my posts - I never said "because it's a GSD it kills things". 
I said prey drive is hardwired into dogs. It's part of every dog's genetics, no matter the breed. 
I said training is excellent and may help when you are there, but don't leave them unsupervised. This dog has already killed, thus proving it can/will.

This is my view on it though. Most folks don't know how, or don't want to put in the effort to train a dog to not kill other pets (dogs that have done it already - no matter what the breed). 

So management and separation is better - but if they want to try to train that's wonderful, go for it.
However, I would not count on training to keep small furry prey animals safe while I was away, so again it's back to management. 

Most times these animals do wind up in shelters, put to sleep at the vet, or "free to good home without chickens/cats/ducks/whatever" on craigslist - no matter what the breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee

msvette2u said:


> ............However, I would not count on training to keep small furry prey animals safe while I was away, so again it's back to management.


I 100% agree with that if you don't trust your animals together. Whether it's your dogs you aren't sure about together or any animals you aren't sure of their behavior when you aren't home.


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## debbiebrown

i have always had cats and gsd's, and they have never been separated in the house, growing up together. now, of course a puppy and especially a gsd with prey drive is going to try and chase a moving cat, bunny, whatever. but, teaching them from a pup appropriate behavior around other smaller house pets has worked great. i can leave them all alone in the house and no problem. they have grown up together and know the cats are part of the pack.
i had a friend who always separated her cats from her gsd's. the cats lived in the basement, only came up in the house when the dogs were out. one day she let the dogs in and the cats happened to be up in the kitchen, immediately the dogs ran to the cats and killed them before she could act. now in this case, the dogs viewed the cats as strangers in the house they never interacted with them, and therfore didn't realize the cats were part of the family. big mistake on my friends part, and sadly that didn't have to happen.
its a horrible thing to see happen..........

lots of training on impulse control and teaching appropriate behavior etc. this will take alot of work now that its happened, but with the right help you can succeed.


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## robinhuerta

I'm with Chris on this one....
Dogs are simply Predators.....smaller, vulnerable animals are simply prey.
You may be able to *teach* a dog to "leave it alone, ignore it"......but the basic instinct *Prey drive* is still there....
They are animals.....and mistakes, misfortunes can happen in an instant.
*Prevention* is the only real cure....JMO.


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## msvette2u

> i had a friend who always separated her cats from her gsd's. the cats lived in the basement, only came up in the house when the dogs were out. one day she let the dogs in and the cats happened to be up in the kitchen, immediately the dogs ran to the cats and killed them before she could act. now in this case, the dogs viewed the cats as strangers in the house they never interacted with them, and therfore didn't realize the cats were part of the family.


Were these dogs raised, as puppies, around the cats? If not, that could be why she kept them separated.

We had cats when we got our adult GSD and the puppy GSD (10yrs. ago). Puppy always knew the cats, the adult GSD was fine w/cats in the house, didn't chase. 
But one day they were outside and saw our cats - the cats they knew inside - and chased one to a fence post. I could not call them off. This fence post was over 6' but they were jumping up trying to get the cat. If they'd have gotten him, they'd have killed him. And it was a cat they'd known and lived with fine in the house. And once things calmed down and the cat was in the house again, they were again fine with him. 

I'm sorry but your theory of "family cat" vs. "strange cat" isn't really holding a lot of water. In theory that's how it is. In reality, it's not like that at all. 
Prey drive trumps all familiarity, training and even managing - because it's _hard wired_ into the pet.
If you have an intensely prey driven dog, the dog could sit alongside the family cat, then if the cat became startled and ran, the dog would more than likely give chase. 

I'm not saying don't train or don't try. But don't trust that training to protect your other small furry pets.


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## cliffson1

There is a reason in forty years, I have never owned a cat. Although dogs are domesticated by man, they are predators by nature. I try not to tempt nature wit something I can control. I am sorry about the rabbit, but I have seen many small animals fall victim to this breed. Though I believe in training, I don't trust training over predatory instinct. Just like I don't tempt two full grown females alone without supervision...!


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## kiya

I have had GSD's & cats together all my life. In November for the first time I had a problem with Kiya accepting the new kitten. It took 6 months but now the kitten can eat dinner on the floor right next to the dogs. He just lounges around the house laying on any spot he feels like.
If I go out would I leave him loose with the dogs NO WAY, he gets locked in the bedroom.


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## MaggieRoseLee

cliffson1 said:


> There is a reason in forty years, I have never owned a cat. Although dogs are domesticated by man, they are predators by nature. I try not to tempt nature wit something I can control. I am sorry about the rabbit, but I have seen many small animals fall victim to this breed. Though I believe in training, I don't trust training over predatory instinct. Just like I don't tempt two full grown females alone without supervision...!


I SO disagree!!! 

I've had 3 GSD's raised with 3 cats (none kittens) and NEVER had issues leaving them out together when I'm not home.

Cat's always have escape routes if the PLAY gets too rough (heck, under the bed). And dogs know the cat's 'mine'. You don't eat my shoes when I'm not home, and you certainly wouldn't kill the cats (who are your mates) when I'm not home.

While I'm sure some ADULT dogs that haven't been properly trained/socialized around cats, and are known killers of other dogs/rabbits/birds/wildlife/etc. wouldn't be trusted around my cats.....

I've had my dogs with my cats, and my many friends dogs over around my cats and never a death in the batch. 

*So to EXPECT death of a cat just because I have a GSD is, in my opinion, some kind of crazy talk!* 

This is just another training issue in almost all cases. Only exceptions would be an adult killer dog that has known aggression issues. Frankly, they'd tend to show up with other dogs (specially smaller dogs) and many other ways so the world in general is probably under threat, not just cats.


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## TaZoR

I too had a gsd who never attacked any animals he lived with..I had many cats and kittens and I even had a squirrel who would run around willy nilly through the house at times. The squirrel loved to lay on my leg and if the dog sniffed her she would swat him on the nose. I worked many hours, fostered many puppies and kittens and never seperated. They CAN learn and Can Eventually be completely trusted.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I'm with Robin and Cliff on this. I understand MRL's point and training is great. I used to be able to call my dog off anything - when she could still hear. I have never owned a cat. My GSD HATES cats. I have owned guinea pigs, rabbits and birds. She has accepted them into the home, but they are always in their cages around her.

I can understand wanting cats and dogs to get along. Plus cats can escape and can fight back. What can a guinea pig or rabbit do? Perhaps you can make your dog and small pets get along, but I guess my question is why? Why take the risk? It only takes a fraction of a second for that little furry critter to be history.

My friend has always had GSDs and rabbits. As a child her GSD never bothered the rabbit, until one day the dog bit the rabbit's head off. She is 40 now. She has a GSD, cat and rabbit. She allows the cat and GSD together. They are fine. Do you think she allows the rabbit and GSD together? Not on your life.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I can understand wanting cats and dogs to get along. Plus cats can escape and can fight back. What can a guinea pig or rabbit do? Perhaps you can make your dog and small pets get along, but I guess my question is why? Why take the risk? It only takes a fraction of a second for that little furry critter to be history.


*I have issues with people saying it's NATURAL that GSD's should be expected to kill cats so don't own them or expect their dog to behave around a cat.*

I would NEVER leave my dogs alone in a house with loose rabbits and guinea pigs though. If I was there and paying attention, frankly I'd expect nothing to happen, but even I wouldn't take myself from equation and leave everyone running loose. Dogs are just too big and those animals too small to have an accident happen.


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## GSDolch

I know people keep bringing up prey drive, and I wont deny that, that could have been it. But, well no one really knows for sure.

For me, and the way I read into it. The rabbit was older than the GSD, the GSD never had any problems before with the rabbit, (even though it wasn't out of cage), the GSD would carry around rats gently in its mouth....I half wonder if the GSD tried to do the same thing to the rabbit as it did to the rats and the rabbit ended up freaking out so much and contributed to killing itself while either in the dogs mouth, or while the dog was trying to pick it up. Not to kill it, but to do to the rabbit what it does to the rats...

Who knows :/

I would focus on make sure your dog knows the leave it command, and will leave something while you are there. I would also make sure you are diligent about keeping the smaller animals caged up out of harms way when you are not there.

I don't see a reason to get rid of the dog. Maybe change some things, but your dog isn't going to go on a killing spree and start eating little kids because of what happened. This was just one of those hard lessons in life that show us how nature can be sometimes.


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## BlackthornGSD

I have had 2 cats for a number of years and I've had a number of GSDs. Most of my GSDs ignore the cats in the house. They might poke or interact if the cat invites it, but mostly they are utterly unconcerned about the cats.

However, I have 2 dogs who are much more intensely interested in the cats. One is herding--she can be nose-to-nose with a cat and isn't trying to kill--just control and herd. She will get nippy a bit and overstimulated. I don't trust her with the cats unsupervised, but nor am I worried that a cat will saunter into the room and into death by her jaws. 

My other GSD is a potential cat killer. I cannot train this out of her--she is not barking or out of control--she is absolutely _hunting_. I have her under excellent control and she will walk through a room with the cats and not take action, but I guarantee if I were not there, she would be seeking to kill.

So, I think that _most_ GSDs are not going to be a problem with cats--more than 80%, say. But the ones that are stimulated and intending to herd or kill are not going to ever be trustworthy unsupervised. Training, however, can do an awful lot to keep the problem controlled.

The issue is much stronger when it is an animal like a rat or a rabbit--those are very much natural prey for a canid, and even my most trustworthy dogs with cats I would be very, very, very careful about trusting near a rabbit.


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## jade_14

So sorry about your bunny, that's a terrible accident to have happen. 
I have a guinea pig, and though I fully trust my dog to behave with her when I'm around, I would NEVER trust them together alone, I am always with them when they're together. They don't do much, usually she sleeps on his back or beside his head, she likes it because he's warm. He just licks her all over, and is quite protective of her. Outside though, he chases anything that moves fast (cat, bird, squirrel, etc), though I don't think he would do anything if he caught them.. it's the chase he likes the most I think, and I can call him off. 
Like others have said, rabbits are incredibly fragile and unfortunately it wouldn't of taken much for your dog to hurt her by accident.


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## marshies

I think there's a difference between cats and rabbits though. Puppy was RAISED with a rabbit in the house. But she will never see it as a member of her pack, simply because of how they interact - which is none at all. Cats can be playful, and can discipline dogs. They are much more equals in terms of ability and position in the food chain. Rabbits and dogs are a to eat or be eaten relationship.


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## debbiebrown

msvette2u said:


> Were these dogs raised, as puppies, around the cats? If not, that could be why she kept them separated.
> 
> We had cats when we got our adult GSD and the puppy GSD (10yrs. ago). Puppy always knew the cats, the adult GSD was fine w/cats in the house, didn't chase.
> But one day they were outside and saw our cats - the cats they knew inside - and chased one to a fence post. I could not call them off. This fence post was over 6' but they were jumping up trying to get the cat. If they'd have gotten him, they'd have killed him. And it was a cat they'd known and lived with fine in the house. And once things calmed down and the cat was in the house again, they were again fine with him.
> 
> I'm sorry but your theory of "family cat" vs. "strange cat" isn't really holding a lot of water. In theory that's how it is. In reality, it's not like that at all.
> Prey drive trumps all familiarity, training and even managing - because it's _hard wired_ into the pet.
> If you have an intensely prey driven dog, the dog could sit alongside the family cat, then if the cat became startled and ran, the dog would more than likely give chase.
> 
> I'm not saying don't train or don't try. But don't trust that training to protect your other small furry pets.


 
this persons cats were there before the dogs came as pups, so, it wasn't a good idea to separate them. i could see if she had brought adult dogs in with the cats. even then if it were me i would still introduce saftely and try to get them used to the cats.


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## robinhuerta

Surprise....I have cats! YES...one lives inside...and the other lives outside.
I also have owned small animals (I have adult children, who had "furries" growing up).....and I have always had large, strong breeds of dogs.
Have I ever had one of my own dogs "kill" one of our small animals?....NO.
BUT.....I also respect the natural balance of things.....in Nature.....you are either Predator or Prey.....and at any given time, you can be either.

Training is simply "teaching and modification"....it is not "transformation"....one does not "change" what nature dictates.....it is simply the balance of life.
I cannot *trust* what I cannot control at any given time....
Creating a safe environment is crucial......prevention and intervention...is key.
Again...JMO.


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## cliffson1

@MRL....it's alright for us to disagree....lol What we both have in common is that we have never had cats or rabbits of ours killed by our dogs


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## Dainerra

I expect the boys to listen and obey when I tell them to "leave it" I don't care WHAT the object is. Of course, if I'm not present I can't give the command so I don't ever leave them alone and unconfined.


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## Debbieg

I also expect Benny to "leave it" no matter what his prey drive is tempting him to do. But this expectation comes now that he is three, and has more impulse control,and with constant training. We have 4 cats, and he loves one, hates one, and ignores two, but will not hurt them. 
He does try to herd them occasonally.

He seems to consider our cats part of the pack. We don't let our cats out because our street is busy, but occasionally one gets out and Benny will "herd' it back in. A few weeks ago, our 20 pound cat, (the one he loves) was basking in the sun on the driveway and Benny tried to roll her uphill back into the house.

When we adopted Jake, (Borzoi) we were told that Borzois are not good with cats. ( Our cats were the reason DH was always turned down from Borzoi rescue until a private family took a chance with us)
Jake just follows Benny's lead and treats the cats like family.

Benny and Jake both want to chase rabbits, cats when we are out walking. Not sure of they would kill them and maybe they don't even know, but a strong "leave it" and "recall" command is something I think we should never take a dog out unleashed without. Not just for the prey, but for the dog.


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## pyratemom

I'm sorry you had this experience. Unfortunately things do happen. The bunny wasn't mauled so chances are your dog was trying to play with it like a toy. I had a WGSD and a Pit at the same time. The Pit got off his chain and caught one of my cats. The WGSD would not usually hurt a cat but the prey drive picked up from the Pit got her into the action along with him. The cat survived that time but my husband certainly learned a lesson - don't grab the cat - grab the dog - he was pretty scratched up. The same Pit did catch another cat of mine that I had to take to the vet and have put down. We did keep the dogs the rest of their natural lives and didn't hold it against them. They were just following their natural prey drive instinct. That being said, Raina isn't allowed to be loose around my cats, even supervised. Her prey drive is as high as it gets and there is no teaching her that my cats should be her friends. The cats were here first so we do management. Gates and crates are my way of life. Don't blame yourself.


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## Ucdcrush

msvette2u said:


> The "moral compass" is assuming your dog should know it's your family pet and not kill it because it's a part of the family. Why would it "know" that? Dogs can't know or "care about" those things. Dogs are hardwired to go after prey. You can't make a dog realize that "Oh this is the FAMILY cat - yah, I can't eat it, but here's the neighbor's cat, we don't care about that cat, so it's fair game!" Why would it know, or care about that?


No one but you said anything about "moral"(s), and now you are apparently arguing with yourself. 

What you write is ignorant of the fact that dogs can tell family members like other dogs, humans, and yes even cats, from non-family members. Why? I suppose because dogs are pack animals and obviously the ability to recognize pack members as distinct from non-pack members was necessary for survival. I don't see anything "moral" in that, and again, you are the one who used the word.

To address your point, YES YOU CAN "teach" a dog who is part of the family. How can you not know that? It happens in millions of homes all over the world.

Again I think something must be off with this communication, because I can't see how anyone would believe that a dog is not able to distinguish pack members from strangers. There must be a communication issue here, and it's not helping the OP. The argument does certainly not involve "morals".

My original point was that dogs *are able* to peacefully coexist with other animals that are part of the family, if the leadership is in place to establish and reinforce the rules. From what the OP said, there are other issues with dogs in the household suggesting that improvements in leadership would help the situation.


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## Debbieg

Ucdcrush said:


> Again I think something must be off with this communication, because I can't see how anyone would believe that a dog is not able to distinguish pack members from strangers. There must be a communication issue here, and it's not helping the OP. The argument does certainly not involve "morals".
> 
> My original point was that dogs *are able* to peacefully coexist with other animals that are part of the family, if the leadership is in place to establish and reinforce the rules. From what the OP said, there are other issues with dogs in the household suggesting that improvements in leadership would help the situation.



I agree and disagree. I agree that dogs do not make moral judgements and they are pack animals who will not harm and will even protect humans and family pets they accept as part of the family pack and good consistent leadership by the human "pack leader" helps create and maintain this.

I disagree that it is safe , wise, or even fair to always count on this. Dogs, are wild animals, no matter how domesticated and should not be left unsupervised with rabbits or cats.

Maybe I am over cautious, don't trust the dogs enough, but I do not even leave Benny, our Borzoi, and our son's Pit bull all loose together when we go out, even though they get along very well.
And yet, when we are all home all three dogs live peacefully with 4 cats.


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## Nikita123

kindhearted said:


> Hello, I'm looking for some advice on my spayed 3 1/2 years old pure bred German Shepherd. I had got her when she was 7 weeks old. 3 days ago, she killed one of my pet bunnies who was 6 years old. I take full responsibility for this and I know this was my fault and not the dog.
> 
> Let me tell you my situation. I have a separate outside add-on hallway that the dog isn't allowed in and it's strictly for the bunnies (and cat) to get their exercise. Some days when it's hot and they can't go out there, I'll let them exercise in my bedroom supervised with me in there, and the door locked. There hasn't ever been a time when I let the bunnies loose in my bedroom without me in there with them.
> 
> So 3 days ago (Friday) I was in a rush to go out and meet with some friends. I took my rabbits out of their cages in my bedroom to let them out for exercise because I haven't gotten around to letting them out for the whole day so I felt bad. I cannot lock my bedroom door unless I am actually in the room with them. So the door wasn't locked, but was fully shut when I left. Basically I planned on only being out for 10 minutes (this is why I allowed the bunnies out and didn't think much of it)...well 10 minutes turned into an hour and a half.
> 
> I got home, couldn't find my dog anywhere because she always barks when someone is at the door. So I check all the rooms, then finally checked my bedroom last, and she comes busting out of there. That's when I saw my poor bunny laying in the middle of the floor with her neck snapped and leg broke. There weren't any bite marks or even a single drop of blood so I'm thinking the dog literally trampled her with her paws by putting all of her weight on her. The other bunny was alive and hiding behind my large entertainment center.
> 
> The dog's crate is also in my bedroom where the bunnies are kept in their cages, the cages are high enough to where she cannot get them. However I cannot trust this dog around these animals now. The dog is crate trained however, if one of the animals walk past her crate and if she's inside it, she will bark and lunge at my yorkies and cat like she is guarding her territory. I feel that she gets more frustrated in the crate so this is why I gave her a little bit of freedom roaming the house. Plus whenever I leave the house, I leave her out because I want her to protect the house if any intruders were to come in.
> 
> She is fine with the other dogs in the house, she got into 2 serious scuffles before but she was corrected and never happened again. We never ever let the yorkies alone with her when no one is home, we put our yorkies in the master bedroom and just leave her out. All of the yorkies are dominant with her and will put her in her place when needed.
> The cat has a large tree house so she stays up there all day until the dog goes back in her crate.
> 
> We have a screened in lanai with an inground pool that she enjoys very much. One of my yorkies likes to bark and run around the pool like a nut, so the German Shepherd will go into stalk mode, lock her eyes on him and then chase him and mouth him while growling. My other yorkie who is calm, doesn't run around the pool so the Shepherd is fine with her and won't go after her.
> 
> These are all of the problems we have with her. She isn't aggressive towards me or anyone at all, and she knows commands such as sit, down, stay, paw, roll over, ect. But whenever she gets fixated on something (other pets) she ignores my commands and I have a hard time snapping her out of that state of mind. I cannot pick up and hold my cat in front of her because she will jump on me and try to take the cat with her mouth. The cat will hiss, growl, and spit at her which makes her even more excited and prone to chase her.
> When I hold the bunnies and get them to calm down, I'll show them to the dog but not put them on the floor, she will lick them and won't try to bark at them as long as i'm keeping them still and calm. But when I carry them to a room, she gets very excited and tries to mouth them. Also when she is in her crate in my bedroom, and when I take the bunnies out of the cages, that's when she lunges and barks.
> 
> I'm really having a hard time understanding all of this behavior, and after this tragedy happened, it really has opened my eyes that I need some serious training to do with her, and I have let her get away with to much. I love her and honestly don't think I could get rid of her like everyone is telling me to do.
> I've grown up with German Shepherds, but they all never had high prey drive so bad like my dog does.
> 
> I need all the tips and advice I can get. Also has anyone else had their GSD kill one of their pets?


we have two female German Shepherds. Very aggressive.GSDs have a balanced temperament and they are good with their owners. But their predator instinct can easily be triggered by other animals, especially if another animal does something that annoys them. You should not even have the rabbits and cat around a particularly aggressive Shepherd at all. A GDS can move so fast that she can kill a cat or rabbit even when you are present before you can stop her. They are very efficient predators and become even faster and more efficient when they are annoyed by another animal. Don't play Dr DoLittle. You are risking your pets and their lives.


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## Nikita123

CarrieJ said:


> GSDs are clever dogs. I don't know how many that I've run into that can open round door knobs.
> All dogs are predators and have some amount of prey drive. At my house Zoey the weasel terrier has a higher drive than Alice the GSD. Partially due the fact that I didn't really raise Zoey (my mother did) and I did raise Alice. Zoey still hunts and kills rats and really reacts to the cat if I accidently step on it (yeah, I'm clumsy).
> Knowing that Zoey would be living with us (she's small white and squeaky) and I have two cats. One dog savvy and one not; one of them makes a weird sound and runs. That's pretty much a trigger for any prey driven animal. So, with Alice the GSD I deliberately avoided flirt poles and squeaky toys. The squeaky toys encourge the prey driven behavior.
> Watch a dog with a squeaky toy. They grab it, it squeaks, then they shake it. The shake is a kill move. Or, they lay down and tear the squeaker out and then walk away. They walk away because "it's dead" no more encouragement.
> 
> I would consider your situation an accident. The dog probably just shook the rabbit. It is a positive thing that your GSD did not continue to stalk the remaining rabbit or eat the one that got killed. When a dog is (I'm stuggling for the right word here so please excuse me) allowed (?) or put in a situation to eat a small animal (chicken, rabbit, etc) that it has killed; it has actually not only encouraged the prey drive but rewarded it. Steady meals at regular times help lower the predatory drive as well.
> 
> I am sorry for the loss of your pet.
> I definitely know that both of my girls would "pack up" if put into the same situation.


Not true. Not an accident.


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## Saphire

This thread is 9 yrs old.


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