# Perceived Threat



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I was reading a topic on the Jerry Springer board about dogs before "the split". Someone talked about dogs so crazy for the sleeve, they notice nothing else around them. This person talked about how the dogs are now bred this way where they do not perceive anything as a threat. This was sited as a negative by this person. 
Another person commenting said that a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog. 
What are your opinions? Who is the "better" dog?
Anne


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I think a threat is a threat, plain and simple. Someone verbally or physically threatening the dog or intentionally getting in the dog's space or my space in a threatening and provocative way. That's when the dog should respond. I don't like it when the dogs are screaming uncontrollably in the parking lot just getting harnessed up for protection. I like them to have control and show they are actually thinking and paying attention, not just getting nuts over the sight of a sleeve.

In my own training, my helper can touch my dog and even do some obedience with him. He cannot correct him hard without a problem from the dog, but I don't think anyone but me can (he's not a dog that will let just anyone take the leash and start jerking him around, but I think this is good and like this about him). Lately in tracking we've been preparing for different things that happen in a trial, so getting the dog used to a person or people near him or at various distances behind him or next to him while tracking. On Sunday the helper was within kicking distance of the dog as he tracked and indicated articles without creating problem, and was also in my "group" for obedience training. Ideally I'd have a variety of people and not be intentionally putting helpers in my dogs space in other phases, but there's not always much of a choice when training, especially when I want help with tracking. So far it hasn't seemed to matter anyway. Now, the dog is not so complacent that I or my husband could "work" him in protection. It does have to be "real". He does not have the raw power that a dog with better genetics might have, but I like that he activates well on his own, when appropriate. Since my dog is not just a SchH dog but primarily my companion that comes a lot of places with me and does a lot of different activities, I have to place control higher on the priority list for him that I might with a different dog with a different lifestyle.

I do not like sleeve/equipment oriented dogs or training. The sleeve definitely has it's purpose but I think the real catalyst in bitework is both the dog responding to a threat and the dog being able to bring power and aggression on his own (like coming into the blind initially when there is no threat or stimulation). The dog should be ready to fight, not just want to play games with a jute sleeve. That's just the way I feel about it. The dog bites the sleeve as the acceptable method of diffusing the threat. Then the dog can hold that sleeve and be in his own space because he "won". The more I see little bitty puppies coming out to play games with rags and small tugs, the more I feel there isn't much point, other than to check the dog's grip and see how he responds in general in the environment, but the real work begins when the dog is more mature. But please, correct me where I am wrong!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> Another person commenting said that a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog.
> What are your opinions? Who is the "better" dog?
> Anne


I would think it depends on the helper... is he/she a threat/threatening??
My novice opinion is that I would rather my dog see the threatening helper as a threat. 1st time or 100th.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very interesting Anne, though I think you know how I feel, this just happened to me. I have 22 month old West German male that has the real nice prey drive and solid nerve(5-5 Fero,5-5 Arek Stoffelblick) 
About three months ago the helper threw the sleeve to the side in protection work and lo and behold he goes after the sleeve. So then we do it a few more times and he continues even when "stung" by the helper. I was surprised as we do full suit work and Fero has been on suit for over six months. Since I've been working on H&B for past couple months we have only used sleeves in the work. I was very concerned because he wasn't taking the threat from the decoy seriously. So for past 8 training sessions our TD is only one that worked him and with no equipment at all but just focusing on decoy...old school training. Saturday I had four sleeves put in semi circle while I worked him on decoy. He didn't go for the sleeves on the ground once. He stayed focused on the decoy, then we rewarded him with bite and he crushed the sleeve. 
My point is it is very easy to let a dog with the unbalanced drives of some dogs today get caught up in eqipment fixation. Our TD hates equipment fixation and was as surprised as me that the dog had slipped into it. 
Now my 8 monthy Czech/W German puppy won't have this issue because he is always focused on the helper and drops sleeve and refocuses on helper on his own. Fero is my first all West dog in about 10 years and his prey is high...great for grips but not as balanced as I like. I think a dog should have natural suspicion and protectiveness of owner from genetics.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I was reading a topic on the Jerry Springer board about dogs before "the split". Someone talked about dogs so crazy for the sleeve, they notice nothing else around them. This person talked about how the dogs are now bred this way where they do not perceive anything as a threat. This was sited as a negative by this person.
> Another person commenting said that a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog.
> What are your opinions? Who is the "better" dog?
> Anne



Better for what?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

For whatever you want.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I don't know enough to know what is "correct" or what makes a better dog. But I do know what I am comfortable with and what I like. I really don't want a dog that sees a helper that he works with every week as a "threat". That word means to me that there is fear involved or need to defend. I guess that I am just not comfortable with my dog seeing a person that he faces off with every week being something he should be afraid of or need to defend against. Especially with the absence of ME acting afraid or threatened.

I think he should view him as an "opponent". Maybe there isn't a difference, but in my mind there is. I want my dog to see the helper and think "Hey that is the guy that I get to fight with every week. This is when I get to do the things I like, run, jump, bite, wrestle/tug..." I like when I see the dog physically challenging the helper and even when they are holding the sleeve you can see it in their eyes that they want the fight to continue.

Maybe I am just naive though and dogs don't think that way.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I was reading a topic on the Jerry Springer board about dogs before "the split". Someone talked about dogs so crazy for the sleeve, they notice nothing else around them. This person talked about how the dogs are now bred this way where they do not perceive anything as a threat. This was sited as a negative by this person.
> Another person commenting said that a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog.
> What are your opinions? Who is the "better" dog?
> Anne


I don't think it is a matter of "better". I think it depends on what the handler wants and needs. If a person want's a dog strictly for sport and does not want the liability of a dog that might bite someone "in real life" a dog with tunnel vision for the sleeve and no aggression might be a good thing. 

The person who said "a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog" is an idiot. If the helper is unable to impress the dog and be a threat then it's time to change helpers.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> So for past 8 training sessions our TD is only one that worked him and with no equipment at all but just focusing on decoy...old school training. Saturday I had four sleeves put in semi circle while I worked him on decoy. He didn't go for the sleeves on the ground once. He stayed focused on the decoy, then we rewarded him with bite and he crushed the sleeve.


We did something similar in the summer with some of the sleeve happy dogs in the club to bring up more of "man aggression" (if that is the right term) in the dogs. We started with some suit stuff and then we put them on the table and did agitation work without sleeve reward. The reward was simply driving the agitator away from the room. 

We did this for about 6-8 sessions and after that, the helper could toss the sleeve around in protection and the dogs would give the sleeve a quick glance at best and go right back at the helper. Some wouldn't even look at the tossed sleeve whereas before they would fixate (lunge, bark) on the sleeve.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The person who said "a dog who considers the helper as a threat, after repeated training, is not a good dog" is an idiot. If the helper is unable to impress the dog and be a threat then it's time to change helper


 

I am in agreement with what you are saying and also a little bit with what Ruthie is saying. Meaning, the dog should view the helper as an opponent but also a little more seriously than just being someone the dog wrestles with on Sundays. There should be a level of danger in it for the dog and that comes from the helper....or it should anyway, ( in my opinion, of course). 
 I have two females here who would like to kill each other. Something about the other one really makes them angry and that "anger" they have toward each other is not going away. The same two dogs get along well with other dogs but for years now, if they spot the other one, it's on. Never goes away because something about those two dogs brings out the fight in the other one. 

 The helper should be someone who can make a dog "angry", in a similar way , where simply seeing the helper brings up the fight in the dog.
However, the idea that you can just switch helpers makes me laugh. Like there are so many to choose from.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> However, the idea that you can just switch helpers makes me laugh. Like there are so many to choose from.


Got that right!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I do not like sleeve/equipment oriented dogs or training.


You find that much more than you'd think, nowadays. The sleeve oriented dogs are not only safer but much easier to handle than the once that are being worked over defense and perceive the helper constantly as a threat. More and more people are going away from defense to sleeve oriented dogs. 

I guess good training lies somewhere in the middle. Going from one extreme to another doesn't always help to fix the problems...


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

It sounds like everyone is saying that the dog is either sleeve happy or "threatened" by the helper. Again, maybe I am just defining threatened based on the meaning of the word and not with the SchH spin. But, it seams like you can have a really confident dog that doesn't get scared, likes to fight but isn't sleeve happy.

Anne, I think I get what you are saying that it should be taken seriously. Re-reading my post, it sounds like I am saying that it should just be a game to the dog. That isn't what I meant. 

I guess I just don't understand how a training scenario is going to give a dog a REAL threat. It isn't like a situation where someone is going to truly hurt them or their handler. With week after week of them seeing that no one is going to REALLY hurt them and the fact that their handler is not acting afraid. I just don't see how it can really be a threat to a confident, strong nerved dog.

Can someone explain to me where I am not understanding?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Right now in the protection training Karlo is doing, he sees the helper as a threat. Because the helper tried to "harm" me(he pretended to push me, then whipped my leg), Karlo's aggression came out stronger. Once the whip hit my leg the lightbulb was pretty bright and Karlo's fight was on, and he hasn't backed down since. He is not sleeve focused at all, but isn't a dirty biter either(yet) I think the balance he has is perfect for his age/maturity level. Since this progression has happened, he didn't out when commanded, but we aren't worrying about that right now, so I haven't commanded it the past few sessions. He use to out on command before...

It takes a few minutes when we get on the field for him to adjust to the obedience phase but once he knows we are doing OB, not protection he is biddable and interactive to the TD (who is also the helper). The TD/helper does know when to stay a distance during OB if there may be some conflict with certain dogs, and possibly we will have that happen in the future.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Sleeve-safe does not equate to sleeve-focussed. The dog must be safe to the sleeve or else a dog is DQ'ed or worse, a decoy is badly injured. Dog must know that he can only engage with the helper via the sleeve in Schutzhund. I can see the propensity for a dog to get sleeve happy for this reason. However, the sleeve isn't metal, its jute is comfortable and desireable for the dog in his mouth. My GSD love everything about the sleeve. The sleeve is highly visible for a judge to evaluate the grip. Perhaps we should use hidden sleeves or bite siuts - Oops sounds like Ringsport!? Or sleeves that are not desireable at all to the dog. Perhaps the constraints of Schutzhund as it is need to be adjusted to demonstrate true threat to the dog.

My dog is quite stable: read high threshold for getting pissed. But he loves the fight and he knows the only way he can "fight" the helper is with the equipment. He will focus on the man when pressure is on without the sleeve, but he knows that the helper will not just let himself get bit ( he has come close!) Yeah, we have just one helper and we want to keep him!


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

The following questions are from an ignorant person who sees schutzhund as a good way to ensure that a GSD's protective instincts are under control. I will be getting another GSD and expect to train it in schutzhund. You are welcome to ignore my questions if they are too ignorant!

Does Vandal's initial question just concern dogs on the training field, or dogs both on and off the training field?

If it also concerns dogs off of the training field, then is the dog who sees the helper as a threat on the field also going to see that same person as a threat off of the field. Would I, in other words, have to be extremely vigilant to make sure that my dog did not try to protect us from the helper if we came across the helper off of the field. I am thinking of what my late GSD might have done, because he seemed to think that the best defense was a good offense. This was a very quiet, calm, and "thinking" offense. The dog was not "angry," just determined to remove the threat. Fortunately, he was naturally obedient to me. I am asking this question because I wonder if it is safe to train this kind of GSD in protection with any kind of threat.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Sarah'sSita said:


> Sleeve-safe does not equate to sleeve-focussed. The dog must be safe to the sleeve or else a dog is DQ'ed or worse, a decoy is badly injured. Dog must know that he can only engage with the helper via the sleeve in Schutzhund.


I worked a dog last night that was not sleeve-safe. The dog outed and immediately went underneath the sleeve and nipped me in the leg. Not fun. And to me, that does not make me think of the dog as more serious or real. I just think I see a dog that is out of control and disobedient.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Jason L said:


> I worked a dog last night that was not sleeve-safe. The dog outed and immediately went underneath the sleeve and nipped me in the leg. Not fun. And to me, that does not make me think of the dog as more serious or real. I just think I see a dog that is out of control and disobedient.


I had a dog that developed that habit. After talking to people that have many years more experience than I, and then going back and watching my dog, I found it was a problem that the helper and I (as the handler) had created.
Easy to blame the dog, but not always right.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh I don't blame the dog. I blame the handler (new guy, new dog)  Disobedience is a handler problem, not a dog problem. The problem is when handler allows that kind of stuff to happen over and over again. Last night, when the dog bit me, I got on the dog, the TD watching got on the dog, but the handler didn't do anything. He just stood here and gave a faint verbal reprimand.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

That , IMO, is not a case of disobedience. Many times it is the dog re-directing because of a conflict with the handler. You usually see it when the handlers approach. Some dogs bite the sleeve while others might look to bite elsewhere. I recently worked a Mal who did this and as we cleared up the conflict, by having the handler approach and praise vs correct, it started to go away and was pretty much gone in a few sessions.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My dog used to be like that, do all sorts of squirly crap when I approached. In some ways he can be sensitive to me and it showed in the guarding. I think we did guarding in the open a bit too soon, the leash came off too soon, and he didn't really have a good understanding of what his job was and there was no "win" for him. Now we have worked a lot on good guarding and have built his confidence in that area. I practice coming in at various angles, praise and encourage him, straddle him, stand on either side, etc. I want him to keep barking and guarding until I tell him what to do (don't want him to look at me or come to me or stop and sit just b/c I'm coming in).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> It sounds like everyone is saying that the dog is either sleeve happy or "threatened" by the helper. Again, maybe I am just defining threatened based on the meaning of the word and not with the SchH spin. But, it seams like you can have a really confident dog that doesn't get scared, likes to fight but isn't sleeve happy.
> 
> Anne, I think I get what you are saying that it should be taken seriously. Re-reading my post, it sounds like I am saying that it should just be a game to the dog. That isn't what I meant.
> 
> ...


 
Ruthie, the training itself can be much more violent than the competing part. Competing is just a show, it's not what it used to be and it turns more and more into a showgame where the best showdog wins. 

However, training behind closed curtains is completely different. Training can and sometimes is very violent depending on how people train. I know clubs over here where I don't take my dogs anymore because I don't agree with the training methods. They work in the defense only, if the dog doesn't bite his handler, it's not a good dog. The dogs are yanked through the air on a prong collar which is abusive and if the dogs don't take it, they are not good dogs. 

Dogs perceive threats different than we do and a good helper can work a dog in a way where we don't even notice him threatening the dog. It's all about bodylanguage, voice, eyecontact etc. etc. etc. 

I can make a dog run or attack me with just bodylanguage and the way I look into his eyes. That's what I've learned from my dad and that alone is threatening a dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I guess I just don't understand how a training scenario is going to give a dog a REAL threat. It isn't like a situation where someone is going to truly hurt them or their handler. With week after week of them seeing that no one is going to REALLY hurt them and the fact that their handler is not acting afraid. I just don't see how it can really be a threat to a confident, strong nerved dog.


It certainly doesn't have to be about pain or being hurt. In training, it is the handler and the helper's job to present the right picture to the dog. You have to play the part when you work a dog in protection, you don't walk out on the field like you are going for a walk in the park. There is some acting involved because yes, there is no "real" threat. You have to be there helping to put your dog in the right frame of mind and if you aren't, you are creating a problem with the training. As a helper I can tell you that how I "threaten" a dog is coming more from my demeanor. I can't think of the last time I hurt a dog to make him react aggressively although I have used the rag to agitate them by hitting their legs with it. That way of working the dog sort of combines frustration with that demeanor I am talking about which creates a tad of insecurity in the dog. Then I show a little "***** in my armor" where the dog sees a tiny bit of weakness and when the dog picks up on it, I allow the dog to exploit it as a way to come out on top of the fight. That method is a "you have to see it " situation because words won't quite cover it.

BTW, I am not asking about dogs biting elsewhere or suggesting that is appropriate. That is a different topic.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Dogs perceive threats different than we do and a good helper can work a dog in a way where we don't even notice him threatening the dog. It's all about bodylanguage, voice, eyecontact etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I can make a dog run or attack me with just bodylanguage and the way I look into his eyes.


Yeah, I think there is some element of suspicion involved. I mean, think about being a woman, alone in a dark, deserted area and you see a "weird" guy staring at you and you start to get creeped out, even before he says anything or physically assaults you.

This is what I appreciate so much about the skills of a good helper. They know how to use body language and have a "presence" that is threatening to the appropriate extent even without physically attacking a dog. I also think a good dog can read a helper as much as a good helper reads a dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

All dogs can read the helper and that is the reason so many people have problems in protection training. The helpers are not capable of presenting this image to the dog. That requires discipline and also a certain personality. When you stand in the blind with the attitude of a child, expect a GSD to react accordingly. The thing I have noticed with some of the helpers who have this ability though, is that once they have it "on", they can't seem to turn it down. They overpower the dog with it.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Vandal said:


> That , IMO, is not a case of disobedience. Many times it is the dog re-directing because of a conflict with the handler. You usually see it when the handlers approach. Some dogs bite the sleeve while others might look to bite elsewhere. I recently worked a Mal who did this and as we cleared up the conflict, by having the handler approach and praise vs correct, it started to go away and was pretty much gone in a few sessions.


Anne, that makes sense. It was a new dog and we were just doing very simple backtied stuff (where I gave the dog a few misses and then went in and gave the dog a bite) and even a newb helper like me could tell right from the start that there was a lot of issues going on between the dog and handler. For one thing, it took the handler close to 5 minutes to get the dog to sit so he could clip the line in. Part of me still think this is an obedience issue. The dog simply does not respect the handler and does not feel like he needs to obey him "right away" ... I just had this feeling that the dog was out working for himself and saw the handler is a roadblock, a nuissance, a speed bump. He knows eventually he has to obey the handler (since the guy had a prong AND an ecollar on the dog) ... but not before he gets what he thinks is rightfully his ... if that makes sense.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> It certainly doesn't have to be about pain or being hurt. In training, it is the handler and the helper's job to present the right picture to the dog.


I understand that the helper's posture, expression, and movement can make him/her "threatening". What I am saying is that the repetition of the fact that nothing bad ever happens when the dog sees this has to take some of the "realness" out of it. It becomes "normal" for that situation. Since dogs are such situational creatures, I find it difficult to believe that they truly feel threatened with harm or feel real fear. 

It isn't like when you meet someone out on the street when you are out for a walk and the person is doing something they have never seen before in a place where that doesn't usually happen WITH their handler being uneasy. I would expect a different reaction from the dog, more defense.




> You have to play the part when you work a dog in protection, you don't walk out on the field like you are going for a walk in the park. There is some acting involved because yes, there is no "real" threat. You have to be there helping to put your dog in the right frame of mind and if you aren't, you are creating a problem with the training.


Can you give me an example? I am not sure what you mean. I have never been able to fool my dog. He knows my tells better than I do. I certainly wouldn't play poker with him. 



> As a helper I can tell you that how I "threaten" a dog is coming more from my demeanor. I can't think of the last time I hurt a dog to make him react aggressively although I have used the rag to agitate them by hitting their legs with it. That way of working the dog sort of combines frustration with that demeanor I am talking about which creates a tad of insecurity in the dog. Then I show a little "***** in my armor" where the dog sees a tiny bit of weakness and when the dog picks up on it, I allow the dog to exploit it as a way to come out on top of the fight. That method is a "you have to see it " situation because words won't quite cover it.


Yes, I do know what you mean. I have seen our helper do this many times. (added) Again, maybe I am getting hung up on the defintion of the word "threat", but even in the situation that you describe, it is about the fight and the way to win.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Like Mrs K said, it is so subtle you can not really see it. I can't explain it in words, like I said, you have to see it and you have to see/feel your dog's reaction to it. Hard for most people to believe it is possible but the ones who have experienced it, know what I am talking about.

My two dogs never fight either but if they had the chance, it would be ugly. I am not comparing dog fights to protection just saying it can be a case where repetition does nothing to diminish it. 

ALso, I have seen very few helpers who really have this ability and can do it consistently, so, hard to say what you are seeing your helper doing..


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> Like Mrs K said, it is so subtle you can not really see it. I can't explain it in words, like I said, you have to see it and you have to see/feel your dog's reaction to it. Hard for most people to believe it is possible but the ones who have experienced it, know what I am talking about.
> 
> My two dogs never fight either but if they had the chance, it would be ugly. I am not comparing dog fights to protection just saying it can be a case where repetition does nothing to diminish it.
> 
> ALso, I have seen very few helpers who really have this ability and can do it consistently, so, hard to say what you are seeing your helper doing..


I don't understand what you are saying. Too many pronouns used.  What is the "it" that you are referring to? The presentation of threat?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The dog simply does not respect the handler and does not feel like he needs to obey him "right away" ... I just had this feeling that the dog was out working for himself and saw the handler is a roadblock, a nuissance, a speed bump. He knows eventually he has to obey the handler (since the guy had a prong AND an ecollar on the dog) ... but not before he gets what he thinks is rightfully his ... if that makes sense.


Yes, that makes sense but mostly, I find myself encouraging people to not view the dog that way. That is because that belief seems to bring out the worst in the people. I had a dog who people said the same thing about and I am not new and I have no problem controlling my dogs. This particular dog came here at 14 months of age and had already been "handled" by numerous "trainers". When I first worked the dog, the comments from the helpers were exactly what I expected. You have to kill this dog, you have to use the e-collar, you have to correct the snot out of him, show him who's boss, blah, blah, blah. The dog would attack the sleeve when I approached and then the fight was on to get him off it. Watching the behavior of that dog , I suppose I can see how some people would be inclined to want to try to control and squash that behavior but in my mind, there was just too much TO squash. It was not being channeled but blocked and that is similar to what I told you about your dog in tracking. Where holding the dog back was making him behave like a wild man. 
The dog I am talking about had PLENTY of fight drive and it was easily brought out to a level that almost no one could control. The breeder of that dog considered him untrainable and many of the people in Europe who saw him had the same opinion. Interestingly, they all thought he needed to be beat him up where all the fight in that dog was squashed by obedience. One trainer kicked out a few of his front teeth, and IMO, all of that only served to push the dog higher and make him fight even harder because what went into that dog, came out as fight.

My helper would turn the sleeve downward, so when the dog tried to bite, he couldn't get a full bite, ( he was a show dog guy so he thought that would work...lol), and that only served to make the dog angry and bring up his fight. I told the helper to hold the sleeve so the dog could get a full grip when he "bumped " so that fight would not be triggered in the dog. That is also one reason I didn't go up and kill him, because I didn't want to bring up that fight either. The first time we did that, the dog bit and I said "ah" and he let go and started barking. Eventually, with the work I talked about in the last post, where I praised him as I came up, the bumping stopped. I did have to be careful to ask the helper to not try to intimidate the dog because, that dog was always looking for a fight and like I said, the fight was easily triggered, mostly because too much was brought out of him by helpers and handlers beating him up. 

Like I said in the other thread, the handlers can be VERY disruptive so, I am sure that is part of the problem you are dealing with. I think the insecurity and uncertainty in the handler might be more of a problem than the obedience. Also, when you correct the dog for behavior caused by the handler, you have to consider if you are simply feeding the behavior. Maybe you will have to think about that for a minute because that is hard to understand.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> What is the "it" that you are referring to? The presentation of threat?


Yes, that is the simple way to put it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Vandal said:


> Yes, that makes sense but mostly, I find myself encouraging people to not view the dog that way. That is because that belief seems to bring out the worst in the people. I had a dog who people said the same thing about and I am not new and I have no problem controlling my dogs. This particular dog came here at 14 months of age and had already been "handled" by numerous "trainers". When I first worked the dog, the comments from the helpers were exactly what I expected. You have to kill this dog, you have to use the e-collar, you have to correct the snot out of him, show him who's boss, blah, blah, blah. The dog would attack the sleeve when I approached and then the fight was on to get him off it. Watching the behavior of that dog , I suppose I can see how some people would be inclined to want to try to control and squash that behavior but in my mind, there was just too much TO squash. It was not being channeled but blocked and that is similar to what I told you about your dog in tracking. Where holding the dog back was making him behave like a wild man.
> The dog I am talking about had PLENTY of fight drive and it was easily brought out to a level that almost no one could control. The breeder of that dog considered him untrainable and many of the people in Europe who saw him had the same opinion. Interestingly, they all thought he needed to be beat him up where all the fight in that dog was squashed by obedience. One trainer kicked out a few of his front teeth, and IMO, all of that only served to push the dog higher and make him fight even harder because what went into that dog, came out as fight*. *
> 
> My helper would turn the sleeve downward, so when the dog tried to bite, he couldn't get a full bite, ( he was a show dog guy so he thought that would work...lol), and that only served to make the dog angry and bring up his fight. I told the helper to hold the sleeve so the dog could get a full grip when he "bumped " so that fight would not be triggered in the dog. That is also one reason I didn't go up and kill him, because I didn't want to bring up that fight either. The first time we did that, the dog bit and I said "ah" and he let go and started barking. Eventually, with the work I talked about in the last post, where I praised him as I came up, the bumping stopped. I did have to be careful to ask the helper to not try to intimidate the dog because, that dog was always looking for a fight and like I said, the fight was easily triggered, mostly because too much was brought out of him by helpers and handlers beating him up.
> ...


Oh I hear, hear, hear you. I was told so many times to kill my male, I can't even count it. They also said he was untrainable but not because of his fightdrive but because of the level of abuse he went through but in the end we got him biting and all without punishing him or going to much into defense. 

There are so many different ways to train a dog that I don't believe in "untrainable dogs". People just don't want to put effort and work into the dogs. Everything has to go fast, has to be pushed but once you actually _listen to and read the dogs_ there is always a way.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I blame the handler (new guy, new dog)


Jason, 
When you say new guy, new dog, are you saying the guy just got the dog or both the dog and hander are new to your club?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Both the guy and the dog were new to the club (but the guy said he had the dog for awhile). We were just getting a feel for the guy and the dog and the dog bit me and almost got another helper (I guess he was faster than I was!). It's just not a particular safe dog to work because he is very "unstable" on the sleeve. The dog bites hard but shallow and moves his grip constantly and he does so in a vicious kind of way (I would not call it mouthing. It's a lot nastier than that). From what I can tell, a very high defense dog. On top of that, the out is very conflicted and the dog gets "angry" when he has to obey ANY command from his handler. Doesn't help that the handler shouts at the dog constantly ... whether praising or reprimanding so I'm sure the dog just loads every time he hears the guy's voice lol. 

I think I'll learn a lot working this dog ... that is, if the dog doesn't kill me first


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Sounds like you are going to learn about being bitten. Unless the guy gets a grip, you can look forward to the dog getting one....and probably where you don't want him to. Like I said before, in my opinion, the handler creates much of that insecurity you are talking about. The dog is in a fight with the handler and the helper, and that is what happened to the dog I was talking about. The corrections and abuse only fueled it. 

I have a dog that sounds like what you are describing now and I know what happened with him and how he was handled. The handler fed his behavior with her insecurity. I think these situations with the handlers is really ignored in training and the dogs are corrected for the behavior created by the handler.... and around and around it goes.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, I have another question: so this dog comes on to the field just HIGH. Lunging, barking, giving me the stink eye (I was in the blind but I was not looking directly at him though), in other word, loaded and hot. As I mentioned in the previous post, the dog will not do any obedience in protection. It was a struggle to just to get him to sit and clip in. It was another struggle to get him to stop barking and lunging at me (I was about 20 ft away) so the work can start. The frame of mind was just all wrong. When you work a dog like that, what would you do? What would you tell the handler to do to get the dog under control so training can begin?

Btw, the dog is 4 yrs old.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Vandal said:


> ......dogs so crazy for the sleeve, they notice nothing else around them.
> ......dog who considers the helper as a threat....
> What are your opinions? Who is the "better" dog?
> Anne


I want my dog focused on the helper, looking to address the threat by taking the fight to the man.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> ....sees the helper as a threat. Because the helper tried to "harm" me(he pretended to push me, then whipped my leg).....


Chris was doing some helper work a while back and we tried that but Dayna never percieved a threat....it may have been because I couldn't stop myself from screaming "Yes, Yeeessss!" each time Chris cracked me with the whip???



Ruthie said:


> It sounds like everyone is saying that the dog is either sleeve happy or "threatened" by the helper.


There is a nerve difference between taking the fight to the threat, and being threatened.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

At some point I want my dogs to be genuinely threatened b/c it is after all a breed test and I would like to see what nerve is exposed. If the pressure is ever too much, the dog can wash out and do other things (so far my dog with the best pedigree for SchH was the one total wash out), but I don't like some of the training I see mostly with the show line dogs where all the foundation work seems to revolve around making the dogs feel comfortable with the work and making it into a game with the helper. The dog should not be "comfortable" during protection like the helper is his friend. He should be "comfortable" in that he has the confidence and knows he has the power and fight. To me making it some kind of game and having to desensitize the dog to the idea of protection work just seems like a waste of time and a waste for the dog, the handler, and the club as a whole. Even though in trial it is basically a "routine", training doesn't have to be. I like to do different scenarios like using a suit, jumping over jumps and banners, doing some suspicion work. I want the dog to be thinking and not just be a robot.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> Chris was doing some helper work a while back and we tried that but Dayna never percieved a threat....it may have been because I couldn't stop myself from screaming "Yes, Yeeessss!" each time Chris cracked me with the whip???


:spittingcoffee::wild:


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

And you wonder why she has a restraining order out against you ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> When you work a dog like that, what would you do?


Well, that's hard to say exactly without seeing everything that is going on there. I will say though, based on what you have said about it, the handler is a BIG problem. I always make a point to ask people all about their dog, where they have trained, what they have done with the dog , how long they have had the dog, etc. That is because it helps me decide how to work the dog or if it is right to work the dog at that point in time. The reason I asked if this is a new dog for this man is because of what you said about all the problems he is having controlling the dog. I would want to know that first, how long he has owned him. The correcting for 15 minutes stuff makes it seem that the dog does not recognize this man as his handler. Of course, that is always the case when a dog changes homes and is being worked too soon. Could be what you are saying about this man being incompetent but if I see a dog like that matched with someone like you are describing, I start to decide if I want to waste my time, and body, working the dog. All that fighting the handler is doing with his own dog is making the rest of the work hard for you as the helper. He is putting the dog into the stratosphere with that handling. 

So, the first thing I would do is decide if the handler can be coached into doing a better job with the dog. Then he would be more of my focus than the dog. If he is just hopeless, you will not be learning much of ANYTHING by working that dog.
If you decided to work the dog, I would work him on the pole and I would have the man tie him out with the helper out of sight in order avoid that fight with his dog again or to at least minimize it. I would have the handler stand out behind me, not behind the dog, and I would tell him to hold still and shut up. The most common occurrence with dogs like that is the handler gets so caught up in fighting his own dog, he can’t relax and forgets to praise. The yelling that you talked about , even when he is praising him, is not really praise and it loads the dog and creates insecurity . The handler has to help the dog with calm praise,( at the right time), and he has to be able to tell the dog what he is doing right vs just telling him what he is doing wrong. So, the most important thing for me would be that the handler understands how I want him to handle the dog, where I want him to stand and what I want him to do when I slip the sleeve. I would make it very clear to not yell at his dog. If you can get the handler to operate differently, it will make a noticeable difference in the dog .

As for the dog, I might work him in a more calm fashion, since he doesn't need loading. I might make some slower prey attractions with the sleeve and wait until he is watching it before I offer a grip. If I wanted him to bark, I would do it more at a distance where he could not get me and then once he barks a few times, make a prey attraction, maybe pat the center of the sleeve with my hand, give him a bite and immediately turn away while at the same time, letting the dog know that his bite had an effect on me. That means that I let the sleeve go closer to the ground for a second, my arm is more relaxed when the dog bites so I can do that. I don't hold the bar hard with my fist because that puts too much power in the sleeve and makes the dog want to fight or chew. The chewing will be worse if you stay facing him after you give the bite and IMO, this pulling people do isn't teaching the dog much of anything. Quick movements will probably load the dog and make him more hectic and defensive , so, like I said, I would be making myself less of an attraction or threat and the sleeve more of one. No corrections, no control, just work the dog in a way that he can have some success without the handler or you guys fighting with him. 
From what you say, it sounds like the dog is so loaded and so stressed he could pop. He needs some of that stress relieved. When you slip the sleeve the handler can calmly walk in , calmly praise the dog and then once he drops it, calmly push the sleeve out with his foot and then go back out away from the dog behind you again but where the dog can still see him. I would remind him again to be quiet. If the dog attacks the sleeve when you slip it, you could put a line on it and then hold the end of the line with your hand that is holding the bar in the sleeve. You can then turn away and move some distance from the dog when you slip it, which will decrease the dog's desire to fight with you , and use the line to try to keep the dog from throwing it on the ground while the handler CALMLY comes in to hold the dog. I would stay with my back more toward the dog as well because facing him is making a confrontation and bringing back that fight. If the dog wants to attack the sleeve, it will be tricky trying to prevent it because what I just said doesn't always work with dogs like that.
I would always be watching how the dog reacts to the handler's presence and making adjustments...meaning, I would probably wipe the floor with the handler because that stuff kind of makes me angry. I am always an advocate for the dog and it pains me to see what people do to them to get control, when they have never tried to control themselves.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I forgot to mention that how the dog barks will make a difference in how he bites. So, you need to make sure the dog is barking in a less defensive way, making sure the dog knows his bark controls you. So, you could have the dog bark you in closer by moving in time with his bark, make that prey attraction and give the bite.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> Chris was doing some helper work a while back and we tried that but Dayna never percieved a threat....it may have been because I couldn't stop myself from screaming "Yes, Yeeessss!" each time Chris cracked me with the whip???


You are awfully brave concidering you KNOW she will read this AND she still has possession of your puppy! 



> There is a nerve difference between taking the fight to the threat, and being threatened.


OK, scary when Wayne is the one who makes the statement that actually makes sense. I think that is what I was trying to describe. I think it is great for the dog to see an opponent, but I don't want my dog to feel/be threatened in a training situation. I think that has more to do with how I live with my dogs than what I know about SchH.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, thank you for the comments. I'll definitely work on those things and on the handler next time I have the opportunity.


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