# a possible idea for helping reactive dogs



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

For those who have reactive dogs and wonder why things are not getting better very quickly, if at all, consider this:

This is a small study, done as a college thesis, but it does bring up an interesting idea. If a dog gets stressed from a reactive encounter, in this case another dog, the stress hormone go up. If the dog does not get enough time, we are talking days, the hormone level doesn't go back down. Each successive reactive event then builds on the already heightened levels. 

Here is the link to the study: http://theiscp.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Linda-Cooper-Thesis-2a.pdf
Her suggestion is to give the dog exercise vacations, not long walks where they are likely to meet another dog. No busy games of fetch. Replace large amounts of exercise with brain games and relaxation techniques. 

She might be onto something. We don't often take into consideration it might take longer for some dogs to get-back-to-normal (my words, not hers) than we would think.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes I heard of this study somewhere. I find sometimes taking a step back from anything even for myself refreshes the mind.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that's not new.

you will not get a calmed and quiet puppy by exercising it till it physically needs to drop , or flirt polling it or just being busy .

that's like gasoline on to the fire.

calm makes calm.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

From my understanding of this study, the point is to avoid stimulating encounters that can cause stress, and to find other ways to exercise the dog. It's not the exercise in itself that will help a dog, it is the break from having their stress hormones sent through the roof each time they are out and about.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

car2ner said:


> Her suggestion is to give the dog exercise vacations, not long walks where they are likely to meet another dog.
> .


I'm probably wrong because I didn't collect nearly as much data and conduct as many case studies with variables and constants as a college thesis should provide for.....but....my experience would suggest....an "absence makes the heart fonder" type of observation when it comes to a dog's reactivity...probably doesn't make any sense.....but...more frequency of exposure to the "spark" which starts the reaction in the dog.....coupled with a better choice for the dog while it can still practically make the proper choice.....has yielded better results than removing the trigger for any extended period of time. However....if they are talking about an amped up dog and no better choice has been made definitively clear.....then I could appreciate how a hiatus of sorts could allow the dog to recover to a state where it would become more receptive to the lesson at hand......


SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

We do a lot of reactive dogs here, mainly GSD unfortunately.

Contingent punishment fixes it quickly and effectively.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> We do a lot of reactive dogs here, mainly GSD unfortunately.
> 
> Contingent punishment fixes it quickly and effectively.



Can you describe what contingent punishment consists of?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh good grief - punishment for feeling stressed .

Castlemaid said "From my understanding of this study, the point is to avoid stimulating encounters that can cause stress, and to find other ways to exercise the dog. It's not the exercise in itself that will help a dog, it is the break from having their stress hormones sent through the roof each time they are out and about."

which is why there is a thread called http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...400690-rethinking-popular-early-socialization 

there is nothing gained by having an agenda to meet so many people or master so many challenges within a set period of time without regard to accommodating the young dog's readiness or ability to do so . 

quote 
" If the dog does not get enough time, we are talking days, the hormone level doesn't go back down. Each successive reactive event then builds on the already heightened levels. "

this is like the brains muscle memory - a default setting which prepares the dog for a response . 

this is the mechanism behind torture . You don't begin the next round at square one , you begin at the level of distress where you last left off . Accumulative.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Don't know ... 24 freaking pages??? To much reading for me?? Sounds like more "study" than "working with dogs" to me??? 

"Show me" works fine for me, every dog is "different." KISS, the first dog I worked with (a fear of people and a puller) was ... adopted a week later??? I was stunned??? I never took his "hormone levels" into account??? 

Sounds like "crap" to me but I'm not a "behaviourist."


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Grisha Stewart has a section in her book about "trigger stacking"....now I think she was referring to that happening in the same day or experience but it is probably applicable anyway.

My opinion is that this is definitely valid....pathways are formed in the brain, it becomes easier and easier for the stress response to occur (that is a non scientific way of saying it)

There are other ways to deal with reactive dogs than to punish the behavior to the point that it is supressed. There are ways of dealing with it where some positive punishment is used but not probably in the way that Blitzkrieg meant.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Deb said:


> Can you describe what contingent punishment consists of?


Probably a leash correction at the beginning of the behavior


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

carmspack said:


> that's not new.
> 
> you will not get a calmed and quiet puppy by exercising it till it physically needs to drop , or flirt polling it or just being busy .
> 
> ...


Oh I know it is not new. Our training director has told us a few times that when training was much more compulsive that dogs needed two days off to recover from hard corrections. Otherwise the build up of stress hormones created more problems and the dogs stopped learning. 

It's just not something I've seen lately in all the dog training tips posted on the net. It is older knowledge that has fallen by the way side.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> "Show me" works fine for me, every dog is "different." KISS, the first dog I worked with (a fear of people and a puller) was ... adopted a week later??? I was stunned??? I never took his "hormone levels" into account???


Each dog is different. I am sure some dogs can go play frisbee on a dog beach one day and then go train for sports the next. She is more concerned with the dogs prone to be reactive. 

Let's face it. We have a stress filled day and come home and want to veg out to Netflix or a video game where we don't need to do much out of the box thinking. Same with dogs. I'm just surprised at how long it takes for some dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Select the contingency you do not like.
Example: Barking, Lunging, Growling

Then apply an aversive experience to the dog when he offers the behaviour. The aversive experience must be sufficient enough to suppress or reduce the behaviour or you have not actually punished the behaviour. Most people screw up at this point.

I prefer using a prong or ecollar to administer the punishment. Most dogs stop the reactivity within a couple of days.

...or you can read studies, screw around with thresholds and doggy psychologists for a few years..







.

My approach is actually functional obedience with contingent punishment layered over top but contingent punishment is what will stop the behaviour.
Like many things in dog training this is a common problem that people love to overcomplicate.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Like many things in dog training there are many different approaches to dealing with dog reactivity.

I think it is safe to say there are plenty of pet owners who could pick up a prong collar or an e collar and make their dog much worse. I think it is important for future people reading this thread to know that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> *Select the contingency you do not like.
> Example: Barking, Lunging, Growling
> 
> Then apply an aversive experience to the dog when he offers the behaviour. The aversive experience must be sufficient enough to suppress or reduce the behaviour or you have not actually punished the behaviour. Most people screw up at this point.
> ...


The part in "bold" is what "newbies" should understand. For ten years ... I "thought" I did but I didn't have dogs that "pushed back???" 

The people that understand "this" are the ones that can "DIY" there "difficult dogs." Then it's a matter of using a "Proper Tool" of there choice and applying "the above concept correctly!"

You and a few others have given this advise in the past, and it pretty much gets turned into a "I'm not gonna beat my dog thing???" Most likely only Five's of people in "Petland" get it but hey ... good enough, I say. So from that small (subset) I say thanks for the effort. 




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> ...or you can read studies, screw around with thresholds and doggy psychologists for a few years..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh ... I call that the "put the dog on the couch approach" and "discuss his "feelings."


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Like many things in dog training there are many different approaches to dealing with dog reactivity.
> 
> I think it is safe to say there are plenty of pet owners who could pick up a prong collar or an e collar and make their dog much worse. I think it is important for future people reading this thread to know that.


Absolutely,consider the timing of a correction or positive punishment. Do you nick the dog at the first twitch of the ear, the first glance of more than 3 seconds, after the first bark? Since our heads are up higher we may see the obstacle coming before the dog does. We nick them too soon, and then the dog sees the target and thinks "I got in trouble and then that dog / person showed up". We messed up again. 


I agree that rewards are nice for teaching new behaviors. Aversion work better for extinguishing behaviors quickly (if done correctly). But we do need to take built up stress into consideration. Not so much to make up even more rules, but to watch for in our own dogs.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... I call that the "put the dog on the couch approach" and "discuss his "feelings."


OK, we need a cartoon drawn of this one.:lurking::gsdbeggin::nono:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thank you for posting the thesis @car2ner.

I haven't read all the way through but it is very interesting! Seems like it can be another of the many tools/methods available to work on reactivity.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

OK, back on topic:

If you use aversion, keep in mind your dog will have stress and will benefit from having some down time. 
If you have a weak nerved dog, I tend to agree that one strong correction is much better than Nagging time and time again. That is where the stress hormones can build up and the whole thing backfires. 

and off topic: I watched a video of a woman explaining that choke, prong and e-collars were very bad for training and instead use a harness that clips in front or a head halter. I just blinked and thought, but front clip harness and head halters work by aversion. Go the wrong way and it is uncomfortable. duh. So yes, we are trying to use techniques to teach and train dogs that do make things more complicated than needs be.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the article discusses fear and anxiety.

do you correct for this ? 

flooding is counter productive.

people with young pups that exhibit inhibitions or caution to a avoidance will have zero positive outcome if they are forced to confront or are flooded with whatever is presenting a problem.

remove the dog from the situation, increase distance to where the dog communicates , which reciprocal (part of trust-bond) , or go back to the last successful positive experience and take a break.
End on a good note.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

With one of my GSDs.....seemed very reactive on leash towards other dogs.....okay...a nightmare of sorts for a while........anyway...I've posted this experience before...so I'll bore you again .....tried the all positive approach....why the heck not?...figured I'd investigate the protocol....doggy see doggy...doggy get treat etc...keep doggy under threshold and shove food in its mouth.....the instructor decides to take my dog for a spin and show the class how it is "properly" done....she gets 10 feet from a pit with an attitude like my dog and the fireworks begin....then she's hanging my dog on the prong.....so much for the all "positive" show....kind of blew me away that they even allowed me to have a prong collar on my dog at class....being an all positive mentality protocol. Anyway....gave it an honest effort but it was just spinning our wheels...Then I gave the e-collar a try...better results...but the stim level it took to make some impact....was fierce...and it resulted in the dog coming up the leash at times....the trainer suggested some dogs need a "heavier duty" e-collar version at times to make the difference....but I was using the one he originally instructed me to get.....so I moved on and used the e-collar mostly for other finishing work in our obedience sessions....worked wonderfully for this. Then I came across some professionals.....not really even selling their wares to the general public.....they showed me how to use a dominant dog collar...we progressed more in 20 minutes than I had previously in months using all the other methods.....I finally found the proper correction to allow the dog to make a better choice....and the dog never came up the leash. This along with the engagement my dog would give me....made the difference.

I think it's a matter of degrees when it comes to the level of reactivity a dog exhibits....one size does not fit all.....but if I could do it all over again...I know exactly what I would do.

FWIW... Blitzkrieg1's comment " There are numerous people that have dogs that suffer from this cancer.
They live their lives on the end of a six foot line or never leave their house because their owners have been lied to repeatedly by people on the Internet, supposed trainers and behaviourists. Given ineffective methods that inevitably fail or take forever."...This hits home with me.......mostly because I refused to become party to this cancer....sometimes one has to do what needs to be done even if it seemingly compromises their own preconceived standards......at the end of the day...both dog and human flourish.

SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an adult dog needs a fair , firm , meaningful correction .

the article is preventive . Explains the physiological changes and wiring of the brain that ensures the continuation of a stress state . 

Once you are there -- whether by genetics or by unintended consequences of early socialization it is hard to fix . 
You can manage . You have to manage . But the dog will , at the core, be stressed and that has it's limits before something goes pop and you deal with a reaction .

Not clear .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The worst thing anyone can say is that only a strong correction can cure reactivity and that it should be applied to all dogs. Dogs are different, the causes of behaviors depend on a whole range of factors, so the methods used need to be very different. I have owned many dogs. A few were reactive in some situations. I had one rescue that was HA and fearful. I went to a "dog is a dog" trainer who wanted to try an e collar on that dog. I said No Way! Not ever! And we didn't need it. It would have been the worst thing for him and it would have completely crushed his spirit. He was a very gentle dog except around some strangers in some instances. We figured out what was possibly going to set him off and we managed him. I have another dog, a rescue, who isn't reactive, but who can get pushy with other dogs. I just stop her with my voice, no need for a correction.

I have used an e collar for behavior on only one dog and that is only for specific times and situations. I use it more for a certain type of training. This dog is a real bounce-back dog. A low stim correction doesn't bother him, but will stop a bad behavior or defer it to another one. There are times when I will absolutely not use it and will not correct. Most of the time I use the very same calming techniques being talked about here, and both my dogs are considerably calmer.

I question whether a trainer who uses the same method on every dog without taking the dog or the setting into account understands dog behavior or is just operating on "we have always done it this way." I fired my "old dog is a dog trainer after he got physical with my 5 month old puppy, who wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just amped up off leash around some other dogs. I decided after using him successfully with other dogs, he didn't have any idea how to deal with a drivey WL dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> the article discusses fear and anxiety.
> 
> do you correct for this ?
> 
> ...


I thought I was clearly talking about dog reactivity. 

As for puppies that react to other dogs innapropriatly..yep I correct that. 

Many times with numerous puppies..works well too.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Okay I thought some more about all this and here is what I have come up with. I don't care for the idea of straight punishing/supressing beheavior without any discussion of why it is happening (is the dog terrified, or a spoiled brat?) Or how old the dog is ect.

Once when my dog went in for puppy shots,, we were in the lobby of the vet, and he was really young, some really boistrous young dogs came in snd he eventually barked at them. I wasn't totally sure what he was thinking but he was a baby and I think he was feeling insecure. I took him across the room and got him to focus on me and he got treats for that till they called us. At that age I just wanted him to feel safe and not practice dysfunctional behavior.

He had an adolescent moment and blew his lid at another dog once in a pet friendly store, maybe around 14 months? The other dog appeared out of nowhere around a corner straining with all its might for him but was not being aggressive. I think my boy was surprised and just generally feeling a little hot headed because he was in one of those super testosterone phases. I did give him a pretty big leash correction for it and let him know that was not acceptable to me and I worked him near that dog ane left when he was calm and behaving. I think it was the right thing to do in that situation. My dog is not reactive, he isn't fearful of other dogs or dog aggressive. I think he just had a stupid teenage moment. He sees tons of other dogs and those are really the only two things I can think of in his life.

I have used systematic desensitization and counter conditioning and building a bond of trust between dog and handler to stop reactivity in fearful dogs. One that comes to mind was terrified of big dogs because she had been mugged by unruly offleash german shepherds while she was on a leash. I supposed I could have just shut her down with a big correction to the point where she learned that expressing her fear was not something she could do.

I preferred to teach her instead that she didn't need to be afraid anymore.

I guess those examples are pretty good as far as how I might prefer to do something based on the dog doing it and why. But I don't profess to be an expert...can only say what my experience has been

SuperG I hear what you are saying about finddng the right correction to get control of your dog and I really hear you about keeping an open mind toward doing what needs to be done.

I had to throw out everything I believed in order to learn to use e collars and in order to keep the dog I adopted and keep him safe and the world safe from him.

As for the state of dog training today, and horse training too for that matter... I think the push toward humane, reward based training was based on our collective raising of consciouness that there are better ways to do things that are more fair to the animals we share our lives with. I saw more of the old school horse training first hand than I did old school dog training but...it was brutal. I feel we can and should do better than that and I think the pendulum swung too far and the result is these people who now believe you can't even ever say no to your dog which is silly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

show me


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Let's please have a debate without the personal "your way is WRONG" bickering. This is a general warning. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

SuperG I'm glad the DD worked for you. For dogs that like to redirect to the handler I simply use the muzzle until the dog has ceased the aggressive behaviour. Then remove the muzzle and repeat.



LuvShepherds said:


> The worst thing anyone can say is that only a strong correction can cure reactivity and that it should be applied to all dogs. Dogs are different, the causes of behaviors depend on a whole range of factors, so the methods used need to be very different. I have owned many dogs. A few were reactive in some situations. I had one rescue that was HA and fearful. I went to a "dog is a dog" trainer who wanted to try an e collar on that dog. I said No Way! Not ever! And we didn't need it. It would have been the worst thing for him and it would have completely crushed his spirit. He was a very gentle dog except around some strangers in some instances. We figured out what was possibly going to set him off and we managed him. I have another dog, a rescue, who isn't reactive, but who can get pushy with other dogs. I just stop her with my voice, no need for a correction.
> 
> I have used an e collar for behavior on only one dog and that is only for specific times and situations. I use it more for a certain type of training. This dog is a real bounce-back dog. A low stim correction doesn't bother him, but will stop a bad behavior or defer it to another one. There are times when I will absolutely not use it and will not correct. Most of the time I use the very same calming techniques being talked about here, and both my dogs are considerably calmer.
> 
> I question whether a trainer who uses the same method on every dog without taking the dog or the setting into account understands dog behavior or is just operating on "we have always done it this way." I fired my "old dog is a dog trainer after he got physical with my 5 month old puppy, who wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just amped up off leash around some other dogs. I decided after using him successfully with other dogs, he didn't have any idea how to deal with a drivey WL dog.


The cause of the behaviour doesn't matter. Stopping the behaviour is done the same way regardless of why it happens. The rules for extinguishing behaviour remain the same.

Like many people you don't truly understand how to apply contingent punishment or the actual effect it has on a living organism long term.
I physically correct puppies of numerous ages as necessary all the time..it has no lasting impact on their "spirit" or emotional wellbeing. That's a scientifical fact .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> show me


Bring me one of your reactive fearful puppies. We can video the whole process. I'll even give you a discount .


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Reactivity or aggression can be a sort of "positive feedback" loop, where the dog gets farther and farther away from his normal , thinking state often with the inadvertent help of the owner. 

The dog sees another dog, or a skateboarder, or a squirrel or whatever. The dog's brain sends him a strong spurt of adrenaline, and the dog gets excited, starts reacting (pulling, barking, lunging, etc) and that pushes him further from his normal state. Then the owner tries to correct ineffectually. This is especially easy to do with a prong which is really designed to "activate" a dog not "de-activate" the dog. So the dog gets even further from his normal state, and goes out of his mind with excitement. 

The dog might redirect, he might start spinning, but he certainly isn't learning. But everything the dog and owner is doing is pushing the dog further and further away from normal. A positive feedback mechanism. 

This is one area I really like watching Cesar Millan work. Because he is so skilled at reading dogs, he usually stops the dog before it gets a chance to go into that positive feedback loop. One well timed correction and a follow through and the cycle of positive feedback is stopped, dog goes back into a normal state of mind. Dog never gets a chance to feed that crazy energy, owner never gets a chance to accidentally add to that energy. 

Even just holding a straining dog back on a leash- no corrections- is feeding the reactive or aggressive dog's energy, and putting him more and more out of a thinking state of mind. 

I have a very strong, powerful dog who is reactive, what worked best for him was training him in very strong obedience for a few key behaviors. And also correcting with the e-collar at a very high level (not prong, that lead to redirection), for thinking about chasing cars, deer. Both are so incredibly dangerous to him, and both were so activating for him, I had to correct hard and early and just eliminate the behaviors completely.

He is by far the most reactive dog I've worked and he is pretty extreme. For him, and future dogs, I will always teach obedience first, very strong obedience, and then use e-collar at whatever level necessary to eliminate very dangerous behaviors. Sometimes obedience, proofed, is all you'll need. Other times you certainly will have to correct for the reactivity or aggression, with the right timing and intensity. Once those behaviors are nipped in the bud, you can start teaching the dog. But that cycle needs to be stopped first or the dog won't learn a thing.

I am a big believer in having a strong relationship between dog and trainer, as well.

As for the study posted... meh. I skimmed it, the author studied 10 dogs, that is hardly a scientific study and really can't be taken to mean anything. If she'd publish it in a peer-reviewed journal (doubtful, because it would not pass muster) then maybe I'll take a second look.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Let's stop the personal attacks, passive aggressive or otherwise. 

There is always more than one way to approach a training challenge. It would behoove everyone to respect each other and see an opportunity to learn something, instead of preaching to the choir. 

If anyone thinks the other end of this conversation is naive, they should reconsider.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Reactivity or aggression can be a sort of "positive feedback" loop, where the dog gets farther and farther away from his normal , thinking state often with the inadvertent help of the owner.
> 
> The dog sees another dog, or a skateboarder, or a squirrel or whatever. The dog's brain sends him a strong spurt of adrenaline, and the dog gets excited, starts reacting (pulling, barking, lunging, etc) and that pushes him further from his normal state. Then the owner tries to correct ineffectually. This is especially easy to do with a prong which is really designed to "activate" a dog not "de-activate" the dog. So the dog gets even further from his normal state, and goes out of his mind with excitement.
> 
> ...


The bolded is how we've dealt with problem behavoir as well.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Let's stop the personal attacks, passive aggressive or otherwise.
> 
> There is always more than one way to approach a training challenge. It would behoove everyone to respect each other and see an opportunity to learn something, instead of preaching to the choir.
> 
> If anyone thinks the other end of this conversation is naive, they should reconsider.


THIS. 100% this. 

Very well said.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm jumping in with my moderator hat on, this thread sorta has that effect. 

In addition to the public warnings given, I took it upon myself to delete a few posts. 

For the record. I liked what the posters had to say, and both sides made some good points, but be careful HOW it is said. Then nobody sees the message, only the attack and the "my way is better than your way" chest beating.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> SuperG I'm glad the DD worked for you. For dogs that like to redirect to the handler I simply use the muzzle until the dog has ceased the aggressive behaviour. Then remove the muzzle and repeat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. I was not talking to you and I did not quote you.
2. Please listen to what the moderators have said about personal attacks and how something is worded. 
3. You don't know me and you have no idea what I know or don't know. If you knew my background and training, you would not have made this statement.
4. I correct my dogs all the time. I don't use harsh corrections on them if they don't need them. 
5. I am a parent and trust me, I understand punishment. I have also used just about every method of dog training out there and have had very good results with nearly all my dogs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> SuperG I hear what you are saying about finddng the right correction to get control of your dog and I really hear you about keeping an open mind toward doing what needs to be done.


Perhaps, you were just smarter than I was and became proactive about the situation earlier than I did......I probably waited too long to start steering the pup away from a developing fault......I did learn a lesson.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I physically correct puppies of numerous ages as necessary all the time..it has no lasting impact on their "spirit" or emotional wellbeing. That's a scientifical fact .


This made me think about my current dog....my opinion is she's lacking in nerve which might be a contributing factor to her reactivity tendencies.....but she seems incredibly hard with physical corrections.....perhaps the two have nothing to do with each other......anyway....the degree of correction required to affect change for this reactivity seemed excessive to me.....but just enough for the dog....yet she is still a cupcake with all her "spirit". Every other department regarding obedience and proper behavior is a piece of cake....nothing excessive required.

SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bring me one of your reactive fearful puppies. We can video the whole process. I'll even give you a discount .


LOL ... well I have "Zero" interest in being caught up in another dust up!

But so you know ... I found an article by one of the trainers I tend to follow on using an E-Collar to "Correct Problems" with "Fearful and Reactive Dogs." It made sense to me, but I don't use a "E-Collar" so it was just something worthy of note for me. And nope it was not Jeff or Shawn. 

And this time ... I have that source. But as I said I, also have "Zero Interest" in being yet again the target of "explaining" another trainer's methods. After a couple of "years" of playing that game ... I better understand how it works, if people get beat on enough ... they tend to become ... more "circumspect in what they share." "PM" work out just fine for many. So "Blitzk" your not alone on "this" and as I am want to say ... "there is always that guy." But thanks for sharing.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The cause of the behavior doesn't matter????....SMH!
I have dealt with hundreds of dogs with this issue and get paid real good money to do so, and I won't even attempt to help dog/owner until I can see the dog BECAUSE the cause of the behavior DOES matter. One approach fits all is not best for all dogs because of causation....sheesh!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> The cause of the behavior doesn't matter????....SMH!
> I have dealt with hundreds of dogs with this issue and get paid real good money to do so, and I won't even attempt to help dog/owner until I can see the dog BECAUSE the cause of the behavior DOES matter. One approach fits all is not best for all dogs because of causation....sheesh!


Sometimes even when we see the dog we can't figure it out. I raised my she-pup and I'm still trying to figure out why she wants to bark at kids. I guess that is why you get paid the big bucks by folks :nerd:

My take away from the study is if one day, my she-pup and I are surrounded by a mass of screaming rowdy crazy children coming off the school bus (yes, this happened), then to be aware of the stress hormones and take it easy for the rest of the day. Piling stress on top of stress won't fix anything. 

My boy can be and has been surrounded by throngs of adoring children (field trip of high-schoolers in D.C.) and he just gives us a look like "oh boy, here we go" and he deals with it. But in his case, it would be good to take it easy after that. He may be calm on the outside but I wouldn't be surprised if blood work was drawn, that he had some higher cortisol levels.


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## PJR (Mar 16, 2017)

I realise the discussion in this thread came to a stop a while back however threads in the training forum don't appear to move too quickly (Still on the front page) so I figured it was okay to bring up again as I have a few thoughts that might be of interest to people regarding the study.

I come from a psychological background though recently have been considering redirecting into animal behaviour. (Dogs are more fun than people). The paper as people have noted has little credibility, on top of the low pool of 'participants,' there is little methodological report, no statistically significant figures, only apparent effect sizes and a vast number of confounds that haven't been addressed which could have easily caused the same results, such as simply changing the routine of the dogs. 

That being said, the idea of hormones stacking up and dogs needing some down time is interesting however I feel slightly misplaced and I may have a slightly different explanation. 

The problem with the idea of hormone stacking is that hormones do in fact fluctuate constantly in the body, our bodies and presumably dogs bodies are very good at moderating these fluctuations so that effects of a particular hormonal increase are very temporary. Assuming the average person takes their dog out 3 hours out of 24 a day, there should be more than enough time for hormone levels to be adjusted in every dog. This also doesn't take into account other factors that reduce the same stress hormones these walks apparently give, for example there have now been studies shown that petting a dog for 15 minutes reduces cortisol levels. (So it's not just good for us). 

Basically for stress hormones, cortisol to stack up over the course of several days, I feel like there would have to be considerably more stressors at a more consistent rate and no counter effects such as petting to take place, this seems far less likely and doesn't really explain why people can have a perfectly calm dog until they get outside.

Another explanation comes from relatively modern biological psychology. There's a process called long term potentiation (LTP) which has primarily been studied in the hippocampus, an area of the brain particularly important for memory. In simplest explanation possible, every neuron in the brain has a lot of connections to other neurons, according to LTP when two neurons 'fire' a signal together, the connection between them strengthens, therefore becoming easier to trigger again and more efficient in processing than other connections. In memory studies, this is part of the biological explanation as to why certain memories or events are easier to recall than others and also potentially explains why repetition or practice of something makes it easier to recall/do.

This is also a potential reason for Post traumatic stress disorder. Basically the idea is that a traumatic event occurs, the person then thinks it over constantly which continues to trigger the appropriate neurons firing which strengthens them and builds connections. Later down the line those connections are then easily triggered because they've become so 'strong,' and the person ends up reliving the experience again in full.

I don't know if LTP occurs in dogs, though it's been observed in rats and most studies on it have been done on them so it's very reasonable to assume that it does. I feel like reactivity in dogs might follow this process. 

Assuming the dog had a particularly traumatic event on a walk that it then 'relived,' or that it had multiple bad experiences with other dogs during the walk, LTP occurred with the walk and the dogs/people both being triggers, so when a dog goes on a walk it's triggered to some extend and experiences an increase in stress, also explains the results found in the study and of course seeing a dog/person etc will trigger it further and result in a reaction that's been learned to cope with that stress or remove it, which falls back on the fight/flight response, can't run on a leash or if owner is 'in danger,' etc so has to fight. 

In this case, not going on a walk and therefore not triggering the neural sequences involved will stop any negative behaviour. (Obviously) However it's not really solving the issue, just avoiding it. In treatment for PTSD people gradually break down the memories and connections they have with it, it's a slow process of altering the thought processes involved in the events and how to cope with it. Most modern dog training practices seem to suggest a similar method with reactive dogs, where they introduce them to the stimulus at distant, make it enjoyable and gradually over time close the gap. To me this makes the most sense, though other things to consider might be breaking up routine, changing walking paths, how a walk is carried out, times of the walk etc. As these can all be starting points for that cycle and adjusting them will help in breaking down the connections established in LTP previously, or at least creating new links instead. 

This is getting really long but one last note on aversive methods to this. I think it's important for people to appreciate that most of these training methods are based on behaviourism which is well over 70 years old and hasn't been a prominent aspect of psychology since the 80's. Psychology has moved on, importantly the cognitive movement which essentially involves the processes inbetween behaviourism, the mechanisms between stimulus>Behaviour. While I have no doubts that aversive methods can stop an unwanted behaviour such as barking/lunging etc, I have to wonder what the other effects are that occur from this. I don't want to go into depth here but in regards to what has already been discussed. Aversive methods naturally increase stress levels, which would only go to worsen the entire ordeal for the dog. There might not be any outward displayed behaviour but that doesn't mean the dog isn't continuing to experience that high level of stress, which may be even greater after the aversive method is used. Going back to PTSD, fMRI scans have shown that people with long term PTSD have significantly reduced grey matter in their brain, especially around the hippocampal regions which makes them particularly prone to later age related degenerative diseases such as alzheimers. While you may stop behaviour with these methods, it's hard to predict what king of long term damage may still occur if the cause of stress and the internal processes are not cared for as well.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Interesting thread. I will add that not all reactive dogs respond well to hard corrections or harsh treatments. With some reactive dogs, and I mean strong dogs that are reactive, compulsion applied in the wrong way can make things much worse. I have owned and trained some very reactive dogs. Dog aggressive dogs that will redirect to their handler when corrected harshly. Dogs that get so amped up that any extra stimulus will cause an increase in reactivity and aggression. For these dogs a DD collar or a nylon slip collar can work well, combined with a very calm handler that can apply the technique correctly. I find staying calm and in control is a huge component of dealing with a very reactive dog, even one that turns to handler aggression. I try to remain as calm as possible, and when the episode is over it is over. I get the dog back in the correct state of mind and move on. It is not personal and becoming angry or mad at the dog is generally counterproductive. Dogs live in the moment and the second the dog is behaving properly and clear headed we move on. I'll have the dog sit, watch for a second to be sure the dog's head is on right and then praise and reward for the correct behavior. Dogs don't hold grudges and I don't either. 

Recognizing the triggers is key, reading the body language is key and remaining in control is paramount. For some dogs a good leash correction with a prong or E collar may extinguish the behavior. For other dogs it will increase the behavior. The critical component is knowing which training technique works best for the reactive dog at the end of your leash. There is no "one size fits all." There is also no one training technique that works with every reactive dog. There are degrees to "reactivity" and intensity. There can also be temperament issues that cause the reactivity, especially if it is fear based and a lot of aggression can be at it's root cause. Compulsion applied incorrectly on a dog that has nerve issues, insecurities or simply serious aggression issues can make the behavior worse. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

To add to my post above: Some dogs, like rescues or older dogs chosen for work, sport or pets come with serious baggage. Typically, the issues and baggage come free when you get a dog, many breeders / brokers don't charge for the issues the dog has.  

Depending on the dog and it's reactivity and temperament, and it's aggression level and triggers a positive no conflict approach is best. It takes a tremendous amount of patience and control. There are times when string cheese, hot dogs, kongs and maybe even a clicker are better tools than a leash and collar. Even with highly reactive dogs, trust, friendship and respect are the steps to take, in that order. Sometimes, dealing with the underlying issues in a positive way is the key to ending the reactivity. 

I am not a handler or trainer that is soft, easy or looking to feed treats to a problem. However, as a trainer I have seen enough dogs and work enough dogs to know that we need to modify out approach to meet the needs of the dog on our leash. I am a fair and firm trainer that is big on consistency. One needs to try different approaches to find the right one for both the handler and dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> To add to my post above: Some dogs, like rescues or older dogs chosen for work, sport or pets come with serious baggage. Typically, the issues and baggage come free when you get a dog, many breeders / brokers don't charge for the issues the dog has.
> 
> Depending on the dog and it's reactivity and temperament, and it's aggression level and triggers a positive no conflict approach is best. It takes a tremendous amount of patience and control. There are times when string cheese, hot dogs, kongs and maybe even a clicker are better tools than a leash and collar. Even with highly reactive dogs, trust, friendship and respect are the steps to take, in that order. Sometimes, dealing with the underlying issues in a positive way is the key to ending the reactivity.
> 
> I am not a handler or trainer that is soft, easy or looking to feed treats to a problem. However, as a trainer I have seen enough dogs and work enough dogs to know that we need to modify out approach to meet the needs of the dog on our leash. I am a fair and firm trainer that is big on consistency. One needs to try different approaches to find the right one for both the handler and dog.


Well ... it was more like 4 cents but thanks for the insight.


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