# People are nervous about GSD's



## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

People ares still very nervous about GSD's are'nt they. I have noticed lately that people are more scared of GSD's than a couple of other breeds that scare the **** out of me and i would cross the street to avoid...


They are toootally entranced by them.... but still very cautious as well..

Maybe in USA it's a little different, but in Australia it's still not a very common breed like Labs, G Ret's, fluffies, Sheep Dog's, Dobies occasionally only, Cattle Dog's ( Heelers) not so much anymore as the softer Cattle X's around now are being worked generally by Kelpies as they arent after the extra grunt of the Heelers any more

Staffy's ...( and like ) are the breed sold in the highest numbers in Australia

GSD's were banned in Western Australia up until only the early orlate 70's i think it was. In Australia they are currently changing Dog Law legistlation after a number of very serious attacks, and sadly some deaths and terrible maulings, the breeds have involved have generally been Rottie / Pitbulls /Staffy's, the new laws will included jail time for for any Dog who causes a death.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

And of course i meant jail for the owner... the dog is manditory pts.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

So... Whats a "fluffy"?


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Fluffy= can be maltese, "doodle" mixes, anything that looks like a giant furball, lol.

My sister had a GSD/beagle mix he looked more shepherd than beagle and people came up to him and baby talked to him and wanted to generally pet him. So I do think it depends on the people, this was at Petsmart out in the parking lot when I took him to go potty. 

Its sad about BSL, it should be the dog that is prosecuted for biting/attacks and not the who breed, no matter the breed of dog. That is why I think the CGC test is so important, I've had people tell me that when they took the test and showed the insurance companies that it helped them get home insurance, because of the CGC test.


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## kennajo (May 20, 2011)

people are nervous of GSD's. I was in the vets office with mine on saturday and I swear ppl moved away from him! He layed under the bench behind my feet most of the time. It was the fluffy yappers who made the most noise and aggressive moves, yet when Rocky did the same(growl or lift his lip) he was the aggressive one! The little dogs made the first negative move. He is 7 months and just hit 60 lbs so he is starting to look scary, I guess.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah a lot of people where I live also seem to be afraid of any big dog, because I had almost as many people act scared and cross to the other side of the street to avoid us when I used to walk my Golden Retriever as I do now with my German Shepherd...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when Rocky growled or lift his lip what do you call it??



kennajo said:


> people are nervous of GSD's. I was in the vets office with mine on saturday and I swear ppl moved away from him! He layed under the bench behind my feet most of the time. It was the fluffy yappers who made the most noise and aggressive moves,
> 
> >>>>yet when Rocky did the same(growl or lift his lip) he was the aggressive one! <<<<
> 
> The little dogs made the first negative move. He is 7 months and just hit 60 lbs so he is starting to look scary, I guess.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've had a few negative encounters with people
but overall i've had more positive encounters.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

I know that when the little girl was killed, and the other kids mauled by the pitbull in the same house that some GSD Clubs emailed members to remind everyone to be extra vigilant with their GSD's behavour because of all the dog issues that were happening and they didnt want to see the GSD breed once again under the spotlight .


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## stolibaby (Mar 6, 2011)

I've had both people giving me a fifty foot berth to walk stoli (especially if they feel he is looking at them) and then I've had those who come up and beg to touch him. I think it depends on the environment and of course people's history with the breed but really it's hit or miss with people these days at least in our life that is lol


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Its sad but the reality is its human nature to fear what we don't understand or that we perceive as a threat because it is more powerful than us and has the potential to cause harm, regardless of the animal's intention, but purely because it has the capacity. The world of pet ownership is booming and yet people seem to know a lot less about dog ownership than they did a generation or 2 back, particularly people born raised in the city. Many people own dogs, but so many no nothing about dog behaviour and raise their pets as they would a child. They expect the dog to mould its psyche around a human way of thinking. The sad thing is the councils and governments instead of pushing for the pet owning society to educate themselves on dog behaviour and what it takes to own a working breed, prefer to vilify breeds of dogs and exterminate them out of society. 

One day if pitbulls, dobes, rotties, gsds are extinct, society will probably regret that once again the egotistical and cowardly human race does what it does best - destroy whole races of animals due to fear that they may attack us, the same happened in Europe and America with the wolves and now we go one step further, we genetically select for dog aggression (in the case of the pitbull), then vilify the dogs and exterminate them no matter if they are the sweetest most devoted pet.. because they are a powerful breed and have the potential to harm. 

Scientifically we know that temperament can be selected for, so instead of culling the dogs there should be stricter rules in place for breeders, with mandatory temperament testing performed on all breeding animals, in that way you can select for a temperament that suits a pet lifestyle if that is what is wanted. Otherwise they can keep banning till the cows come home, its not going to stop the bites, in fact then they should ban all dogs that grow taller than your knee then, **** ban horses as well, a 1000 pound animal that has the potential to be dangerous shouldn't be allowed to exist. 

Attitudes like BSL show that humanity has not really understood the flaw of prejudice, which is basically a hatred or fear of someone or something based on an external characteristic that reflects nothing about their true being. 

Quite a rant I know, but I used to be a volunteer at the RSPCA here, I can't do it anymore because of the countless times I see stable sweet natured dogs that based on their appearance are put to sleep because they might be a pitbull. It felt wrong, the RSPCA is supposed to be there "for all creatures great and small" they must have the left out the fine print exempting any dog that looks like it is a pitbull.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Oh yes, I get this reaction quite often. When Rayne was 3 months old (still a very small, fluffy, overly friendly, CUTE puppy), we were at a park and I had two people walk up and "aww" at her and ask what kind of dog she was. They were bending down to pet her as she lay beside me, but as soon as I said German Sherperd, they turned and walked away without ever touching her. Really?! Now that she's older and much larger I understand a little hesitation, but a 3 month old puppy? Thank God they didn't say anything mean or I would have been even more peeved.


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## RichardMorris (Jul 24, 2011)

Same reaction here. 
I cannot count the number of times when I am walking our 23 mo old Raven on the boardwalk, I have been asked "Oh, a German Shepherd...Does it bite !!!". I have been tempted to retort " No, not like that yapping/snapping ball of fluff you are trying to control."
The more "informed" members of the human race will ask if they can come up to her, or if their children can come up to her, which of course puts Raven into 7th heaven, with all the fuss that is made over her.
The people who make the most noise about the dangers of GS dogs are the ones who come up to the dog withou asking permission as if it is their God given right, and who tell their children "Go and pet the nice doggy"
I have told people on more than one occasion to keep their children away and to be more responsible in regards to their childrens' safety.
The positive aspect is that even though I have taught her to ignore any passing dog walkers, we are given a wide berth, which lessens the risk of an incident. Raven is not yet fully grown, but still inspires this misguided view of a wonderful breed.
Richard


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A thoughtful and well written post. :thumbup:

The only point I would disagree with is 'hate'. I don't think it's hate that drives this. As you mention human nature, the core driver here is risk aversion. Risk aversion was a good thing (and needed for survival) but when it goes into overdrive it can become ridiculous. 

I think this is important to consider because if you accuse someone of having a strong emotion like 'hate' they'll not listen to your argument no matter how persuasive it may be. 

I just wish we worried about human on human aggression as much as we did about dog on human aggression. 



atruepastime said:


> Its sad but the reality is its human nature to fear what we don't understand or that we perceive as a threat because it is more powerful than us and has the potential to cause harm, regardless of the animal's intention, but purely because it has the capacity. The world of pet ownership is booming and yet people seem to know a lot less about dog ownership than they did a generation or 2 back, particularly people born raised in the city. Many people own dogs, but so many no nothing about dog behaviour and raise their pets as they would a child. They expect the dog to mould its psyche around a human way of thinking. The sad thing is the councils and governments instead of pushing for the pet owning society to educate themselves on dog behaviour and what it takes to own a working breed, prefer to vilify breeds of dogs and exterminate them out of society.
> 
> One day if pitbulls, dobes, rotties, gsds are extinct, society will probably regret that once again the egotistical and cowardly human race does what it does best - destroy whole races of animals due to fear that they may attack us, the same happened in Europe and America with the wolves and now we go one step further, we genetically select for dog aggression (in the case of the pitbull), then vilify the dogs and exterminate them no matter if they are the sweetest most devoted pet.. because they are a powerful breed and have the potential to harm.
> 
> ...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I see more "respect" I would say than true fear. Whenever I go places with either of my GSDs I hear alot of "oh look at the Shepherd" "Look at the police dog" "what a beautiful animal" and the occasional and very funny " thats a wolf mix" , which of course neither of mine are. LOL. Of course they say these things while moving a bit away from me. If I see someone really looking I always let them ko that they are welcome to meet the dog. A lot of people act surprised that they can pet and hug my dogs without issue. I often get repeat petters. I also get lines. Once people realize that they can pet the dog, they come in droves.

I think people see them used so frequently for police work or military work that they assume they need to keep them at a distance and it is thrilling when they learn they dont have too. And unfortunately a lot of GSDs are not good with other dogs or dont like crowds, so the opinion is strengthened everytime an owner tells people to keep their dogs and kids away. The owner is being responsible but it reinforces a negative stereotype.

That said, I dont think my dogs actually enjoy being fussed over at events. They are happy to be out with me in a new place with new smells, but for the most part they roll their doggy eyes everytime I tell them to "say hello" to someone. They are tolerant, unless you have a treat/toy, then they LOVE you.

As a GSD owner is is our responsibility to make our dogs ambassadors for the breed. they are often seen as attack dogs and mean, and I think that if we are out an about, our dogs should be much better behaved than every other dog there.

I have worked very hard to ensure that my dogs are good in public spaces and know which type of environment is good for which dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

gsdsar said:


> I often get repeat petters. I also get lines. Once people realize that they can pet the dog, they come in droves.


Oh my gosh! You have nice people! :rofl:

When I let people know they can pet Pimg, I usually get a massive huddle around here with 50 hands trying to pet the GSD... LOL! Poor Pimg. She really doesn't enjoy that kind of attention but I treat _extremely_ heavily for it! When that kind of overwhelming stuff happens Pimg is getting about a treat a second! lol. Lines.......... oh man I wish people would queue up!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

gsdsarwrote:_I see more "respect" I would say than true fear. Whenever I go places with either of my GSDs I hear alot of "oh look at the Shepherd" "Look at the police dog" "what a beautiful animal" and the occasional and very funny " thats a wolf mix" ...._

I agree. 

And call me silly, but I think German Shepherds should be protective. I am *not* advocating a "dangerous" dog that can't be taken out in public!

But when I go out walking alone, I take my walking partner Anik. He commands respect from people. Never growls, never barks.... he just looks. I feel very safe walking with him.
If German Shepherds become all warm and fuzzy and retriever-like.... that respect from the general public will likely be lost.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

people around me either LOVE them or Fear them. when zero goes running up to people they usually try to back up or look to me like "am i going to die" but hes the friendliest dog ever! haha makes me laugh


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> when Rocky growled or lift his lip what do you call it??


I was thinking the same thing . 
The dog was under the bench , behind the persons feet . That may be an effort to hide ? This dog could have launched out and bitten . 

Half the time people aren't reading the dog . I've been on many a walk where an obviously overtly aggressive dog is let reel out on the flexi lead to come visit , me or the dog I am walking with - oh he's alright he just wants to say hi - oh yeah? As we pass the dog carries tail over back and his hair is up. 

Or they feel entitled - not this OP . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

gagsd said:


> If German Shepherds become all warm and fuzzy and retriever-like.... that respect from the general public will likely be lost.


I don't know about that. As I said people would avoid walking past (by crossing the street or walking in the street) when I would walk my Golden Retriever in heel position calmly walking next to me... I know it wasn't me they were avoiding since I'm small and look like I'm about a 16 year old girl (I'm not).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Hackles and a growl, to me, say less than "lifted a lip" or "curled a lip" since that's really the precursor to a bite. The growl is "keep away", the lip thing is "okay you didn't keep away so now I'm hauling out the big guns to show you, and if you still don't keep away I _will _bite". 
Maybe that's just me, though.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Yeah people give us clearance when I walk my boys. Sonar is a moose with the very dark features and he looks intimidating as heck, then next to a Siberian Husky they are quite the duo. 

Every time we go out I get either "Oh my god!" and walk/run away or "Ohh myyy God, may I pet him, he is beautiful!"

Kids are definitely a product of their parents....I take Sonar to the play ground to get him used to the sights and sounds of kids. We walk around the park and then find a bench near the action and just sit. Kids normally remark either one way or another. "It's a werewolf!" was my favorite, I get "it's a police dog" all the time by kids and adults. I've even heard a mother say "don't touch him he will bite you." 

Onyx is more inviting I think because of his looks, people automatically walk up and ask to pet or instinctively pet him without hesitation (thank god he is a amazing dog!). I think it must be the blue eyes and white face (lighter more welcoming features). Compared to Sonar who has very dark features, a black face and he is massive. Sonar looks incredibly intimidating somewhat like a real bear where Onyx looks more like a stuffed teddy bear.


BSL is stupid, people should be educated about breeds but they aren't.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Stosh looks similar to Sonar and all that hair makes him look bigger than he actually is. I was picking him up at the groomers and there was a woman with a little white fluffy dog in her arms. When they brought Stosh out he was his usual bouncy waggy self and the woman exclaimed in horror, "OH MY GOD, WHAT IS THAT??" as she clutched her dog to her chest and turned into the corner and put her back to Stosh as if he was going to inhale her dog after ripping her throat out. The groomers just rolled their eyes and I cracked up while Stosh was giving good bye kisses all around.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> Hackles and a growl, to me, say less than "lifted a lip" or "curled a lip" since that's really the precursor to a bite. The growl is "keep away", the lip thing is "okay you didn't keep away so now I'm hauling out the big guns to show you, and if you still don't keep away I _will _bite".
> Maybe that's just me, though.


I don't think that is always the case. Bianca will often lift her lip when she is sniffing something interesting, and she will also use it as a "hey, you're too close" signal or "please get your snout out of my face" to other dogs but she will lift a lip way before she will growl, and she's never bitten (even if the dog totally ignores the signal.)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I have gotten every possible reaction from abject fear through completely ignoring her to having to pet her. She is not an intimidating looking dog but her markings,ears, body, movement make her easy to identify as a shepherd from any distance. We go to the same park (not a dog park) almost every day and she has a lot of fans. She takes a while (a few meetings) to warm up to anyone but once she does she greets them enthusiastically on subsequent encounters.
I think a big part of wanting to pet them is so they can say to themselves, especially 
kids, that they pet a German Shepherd.


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## RichardMorris (Jul 24, 2011)

PaddyD;2256932I think a big part of wanting to pet them is so they can say to themselves said:


> I think you are right in that respect. My first GS was a large black and tan male who looked every inch the "noble" police dog. He was actually a big marshmallow, (not that I ever mentioned this to anybody) and he was noticed and petted wherever we went. However I believe that when adults pett a fully grown GSD, it is purely for their benefit. Kids have a more innocent approach to the matter.
> 
> Richard
> 
> OOps, that doesn't look right..sorry PaddyD


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Hackles and a growl, to me, say less than "lifted a lip" or "curled a lip" since that's really the precursor to a bite. The growl is "keep away", the lip thing is "okay you didn't keep away so now I'm hauling out the big guns to show you, and if you still don't keep away I _will _bite".
> Maybe that's just me, though.


An agonistic pucker is not the same as forward commissures. Though I agree if you've reached the agonistic pucker state- you better be on the lookout for forward commissures and probably have already reacted to change the environment! (Of course you need to take the whole picture into perspective.)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mssandslinger said:


> people around me either LOVE them or Fear them. when zero goes running up to people they usually try to back up or look to me like "am i going to die" but hes the friendliest dog ever! haha makes me laugh


Why is your dog running up to people. I don't care for that and prepare myself for whatever is to come. Doesn't have to be a GSD either.
Think about it, how am I supposed to know the dogs intentions. 
What if some person suddenly starts running toward you. 
Dogs of any breed should be controlled so as not to scare the crap out of people. Same thing with the lip curl or growl thing. Why are you in a public place if your dog growls or curls it's lip just because someone is near it. Dogs should not do that IMO.
As far as how people respond to GSD's. I think as already mentioned the images of police dogs, attack dogs, resemblance to wolves all play a part. They also aren't the most wiggily, tail wagging, come play with me type dogs. 
My dog is very people and dog friendly but you wouldn't know it by looking at him. He pretty much ignores people unless they come over to ask about him or I stop to talk to someome. If they are friendly, he is in return, if they are hesitant or neutral he ignores them in a GSD way. By GSD way I mean he may lay down and look relaxed but he doesn't miss anything.
I can't take too much credit because I think he is genetically very sound. Working with him has been very easy.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

wildo said:


> An agonistic pucker is not the same as forward commissures. Though I agree if you've reached the agonistic pucker state- you better be on the lookout for forward commissures and probably have already reacted to change the environment! (Of course you need to take the whole picture into perspective.)


This is a very good point. Something I learned recently was the comminssures. C and V. It was explained to me like this: A short muscly tough guy that drives a huge truck that's all souped up, he is trying to compensate, but everyone knows he's got a small package. V-shaped comminssures are trying to show off more than necessary as to say "I'm a tough guy, Seriously look at all my teeth!" V shape is often more fear related than an actual threat.
On the other hand the C-shapped comminssure is the dude that is confident with his package size and doesn't feel the need to prove himself. C shaped is the ninja trained guy at the bar that doesn't want to start a fight but will finish it if he has to. A dog with C shaped is more serious and far more likely to act without hesitation in complete confidence. He knows what he is capable of and doesn't need to show off (his teeth) to explain himself. 

In the photo is an example of both. On the left is a two year old Cane Corso demonstrating a C comminssure and on the right is an 18 month old GSD (Sonar) demonstrating a V comminssure. This is not to say that Sonar is fearful or has a small package (lol), he is just beginning to play rough with other dogs and is still unsure of himself (he is also submissive) this should change as he gets older and more confident. Constant V shaped is not a good sign.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

I coach soccer for 10 year old girls and this past spring when we first got Koko I would take her to practice with me to get used to the kids and park etc etc. I had a girl on the team that was leary of Koko and one day all the kids were gathering around Koko and petting her after practice and this girl was slowly making progress toward touching our dog when her mother swooped in and grabbed her arm and hauled her away swiftly telling her that GSD's are terrible dogs and she needs to stay away lol. Cant say for sure if the child ever had a taumatic moment or the mother but that situation was definitly a little different. 
My family and my 2 girls have received the sullen stare when we say that we own a GSD. This is from other parents at our school etc. It just strikes me as funny because Koko is such a good dog. I will probably never own another breed of dog now.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

suzzyq01 said:


> In the photo is an example of both. On the left is a two year old Cane Corso demonstrating a C comminssure and on the right is an 18 month old GSD (Sonar) demonstrating a V comminssure. This is not to say that Sonar is fearful or has a small package (lol), he is just beginning to play rough with other dogs and is still unsure of himself (he is also submissive) this should change as he gets older and more confident. Constant V shaped is not a good sign.


Given the structure of their respective jaws I wonder if the Cane Corso can make a V commissure and if the GSD can make a C commissure.
I suppose they could try.
I have seen my dog make a V often enough to tell that she is just
saying ****-off, don't bother me, I am not ready to play with you.
Then, 5 minutes later she will be playing with them.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> Given the structure of their respective jaws I wonder if the Cane Corso can make a V commissure and if the GSD can make a C commissure.


Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I've never heard of the V or C. I've only heard short (forward) or long (backward) commissure. Here's a photo:









8. Commissure is long
16. Short Commissure

...Though I could see why one might call it a "C" commissure based on a photo like this:








5. Short Commissure as part of agonistic pucker with front teeth and fangs displayed

The Canine Behavior Blog Uncategorized


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Given the structure of their respective jaws I wonder if the Cane Corso can make a V commissure and if the GSD can make a C commissure.
> I suppose they could try.
> I have seen my dog make a V often enough to tell that she is just
> saying ****-off, don't bother me, I am not ready to play with you.
> Then, 5 minutes later she will be playing with them.


I would say that yes it is. The V just represents the amount of teeth being shown. In this photo, although you can't really see Sonar, The Cane would be making a V commissure (it's just a squished V). This was the beginning of play were they were both unsure of each others intentions. Then they fell in love. haha


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

wildo said:


> Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I've never heard of the V or C. I've only heard short (forward) or long (backward) commissure. Here's a photo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm no expert either. I am just learning all of this for a very intelligent trainer. I was showing her the photos and she was commenting on them and explaining what it meant. Obviously they are photos which is a poor representation of actual intentions are their body language changes very quickly and what might start out as a V will quickly turn into love during play. If a dog is expressing this type of commissure with people that is not a good sign IMO. Great info by the way, I will have to take a gander.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

suzzyq01 said:


> This is a very good point. Something I learned recently was the comminssures. C and V. It was explained to me like this: A short muscly tough guy that drives a huge truck that's all souped up, he is trying to compensate, but everyone knows he's got a small package. V-shaped comminssures are trying to show off more than necessary as to say "I'm a tough guy, Seriously look at all my teeth!" V shape is often more fear related than an actual threat.
> On the other hand the C-shapped comminssure is the dude that is confident with his package size and doesn't feel the need to prove himself. C shaped is the ninja trained guy at the bar that doesn't want to start a fight but will finish it if he has to. A dog with C shaped is more serious and far more likely to act without hesitation in complete confidence. He knows what he is capable of and doesn't need to show off (his teeth) to explain himself.


What if they do both? 

When she is using her mouth (mouthing or play-fighting) during play, Bianca often shows all her teeth-- in fact I don't even think of this as snarling/lip-lifting but rather a play-fighting expression. It's not her telling the other dog to back off, she does it while they are happily playing and play-biting each other. 
Like here with her friend Calvin (you can't see it from this angle but he's doing a similar thing):











Or like this (yes, this is play, between two dogs who know each other well):









(ETA: Her body position looks weird because she was in the middle of lying down when this was taken)


However, when she is sniffing something interesting or when she is telling another dog "hey, get your snout outta my face" she most often just curls the lip only on one side of her mouth enough to show the canine tooth on that side, or less commonly shows the canines on both sides.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

I think all owners must be educated in Canine behavour for all the reasons we all know, and, there are definately breeds that should be withheld from people until they can demonstrate that they have a thorough understanding about some of the traits that are going to require some extra understanding over and above your *average placid G Retriever

People get very fired up about targeting breeds, yes all breeds are capable.... but .. i am sick and bloody tired of all the idiots in dog parks with dogs that they have no buisness owning, the poor dog eventully ends up in a shelter probably, and pts, when it really should never be allowed to be owned by the undereducated owner.

Giving some particular breeds to anyone without some education..... and then a ....full demonstration of their competance would be like some one asking me to get them a Horse for their teen who loves Horses and............ wants to learn to ride, and me going and grabbing a OTTB ( off the track Thoroughbred ) because there are endless available for free.. it would be an extremely dangerous highly irresponsible thing to do.

Same as some breeds of Dogs,,, they need competant educated handling so the dog, owner, and the public that they will be sharing rescources with all can have a good experience.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

I am also adding
i mean ..not straight off the track... and appropriate matching of rider to Horse.. being bottom line

Not handing over a TB straight out of work fully ready to roll and giving to some green rider .........DANGER DANGER....


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

susee said:


> I think all owners must be educated in Canine behavour for all the reasons we all know, and, there are definately breeds that should be withheld from people until they can demonstrate that they have a thorough understanding about some of the traits that are going to require some extra understanding over and above your *average placid G Retriever


And who is going to have the power to decide who should be allowed to own which dog? The Government?

BSL by any other name is BSL all the same...

I realize you're an Aussie, so you probably have a different understanding of the role and authority of Government...


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm a new GSD owner my dog is not pure bred but pretty close. I am kind of surprised that people are that way with GSD honestly. I thought that was a thing of the past. I thought that now pit bulls were the most feared dog. I have a pit bull so I am use to people acting weird when I tell them what he is. And some people say "are you sure he is a pit bull?" Haha he is too nice to be a pit bull I guess. But he is a pit bull not a mix.

So far most people are very open to my 5.5 month old gsd mix. I do live in a very dog friendly town where everyone seems to have a dog. I did have some older ladies be a little weird with her asking is she nice. 

Like it was said before people fear big dogs whatever they are. Also people people fear what they don't know. All we can do is try and help the uneducated people see that there is no need to fear our big dogs.


There are Lots of people that have pit bulls and should not have them. These people are the reason they are getting such a bad name. It's not fare. Same with the GSD there are people that should not have this breed because they get it for all the wrong reasons.

So I do kind of agree with this.
"I think all owners must be educated in Canine behavour for all the reasons we all know, and, there are definately breeds that should be withheld from people until they can demonstrate that they have a thorough understanding about some of the traits that are going to require some extra understanding over and above your *average placid G Retriever"


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

BR870 said:


> And who is going to have the power to decide who should be allowed to own which dog? The Government?
> 
> BSL by any other name is BSL all the same...
> 
> I realize you're an Aussie, so you probably have a different understanding of the role and authority of Government...


I would hope that the breeders who are currently sending dogs out without ensuring their new parents spend have a good understanding about their chosen breed will start to really ensure their dogs are going into well prepared homes ..and that the shelters that are currently sending animals out into homes that are not up to the task .......start preparing their owners a little better ,,, and on and on... because what we have experienced in the last 14 months is a total disgrace re the unbelievably high spike of trouble in dog parks with dogs and owners. 

Dogs are being pts in big numbers, and owners prosecuted if they can be identified .. all these poor dogs would have had a better chance if going to a more educated home i would think.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

BR870 said:


> I realize you're an Aussie, so you probably have a different understanding of the role and authority of Government...


....


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

sparra said:


> ....


Have no idea.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Perhaps one way would be for local councils to enforce along with the mandatory registration and microchipping that all puppy/ new dog owners attend an approved dog obedience class (which can be held at a council designated place or local vet clinic) for a set number of weeks where they are instructed not just in obedience but also the basics of dog behaviour and leadership. 

I know that the AVA (Australian Veterinary Association) will soon be steering away from terms like pack leadership, dominance and submission because they have found that people are not understanding the terminology appropriately - i.e. they seem to think that their dogs behaviour is a consequence of their dog "being a dominant dog" rather than identifying particular behaviour as dominant - and addressing it, also terms like the pack leader and alpha aren't being understood properly where they assume the alpha needs to be a "dominant brute" to in still submission into their dog - instead of being a fair and natural leader that allows no nonsense but is kind and rewarding at the right time.

Its all a bit PC but the truth is many people WANT to ignore the fact that dogs are essentially domestic wolves not matter how cute and sweet natured and therapeutic they may be, and so when drives like, prey drive or fight drive come into display they prefer to label the dog as too dangerous for society, rather than understanding that those drives are always there in varying levels and as the dogs owner it is our job to communicate to our dog what is and isn't acceptable behaviour under what ever circumstance. In some dogs these drives are better channelled or utilised rather than discouraged e.g. working line border collies need a job or they will escape or find other ways to occupy their mind, hence why our pounds in Australia are full of border collies, kelpies & cattle dogs and mixes of the three.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

Some great ideas ATPT
And having a very very high drive working line B Coliie whose line was working Cattle and ready to roll 24/7 ..i would love someone to try and squeeze her traits into that of a little ****zu

Trying to type the breed .shi ....zu ..it does have a....... T in it does'nt it .... the computer wont write it !!!! lololol


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

susee said:


> I think all owners must be educated in Canine behavour for all the reasons we all know, and, there are definately breeds that should be withheld from people until they can demonstrate that they have a thorough understanding about some of the traits that are going to require some extra understanding over and above your *average placid G Retriever
> 
> People get very fired up about targeting breeds, yes all breeds are capable.... but .. i am sick and bloody tired of all the idiots in dog parks with dogs that they have no buisness owning, the poor dog eventully ends up in a shelter probably, and pts, when it really should never be allowed to be owned by the undereducated owner.
> 
> ...


And I don't think people should be allowed to post if they can't spell definitely or competent. They are definitely not competent enough to post.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> And I don't think people should be allowed to post if they can't spell definitely or competent. They are definitely not competent enough to post.


C'mon.....wer're Ausie's......not only do we hav a "different understanding of the role and authority of Government" but we are bad at speling and grandma too....or is it to...


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## kennajo (May 20, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I was thinking the same thing .
> The dog was under the bench , behind the persons feet . That may be an effort to hide ? This dog could have launched out and bitten .
> 
> Half the time people aren't reading the dog . I've been on many a walk where an obviously overtly aggressive dog is let reel out on the flexi lead to come visit , me or the dog I am walking with - oh he's alright he just wants to say hi - oh yeah? As we pass the dog carries tail over back and his hair is up.
> ...


 No he wasn't hiding...he was following my command. 
The small dogs were the agressive ones. Rocky wanted to make friends, he only showed teeth and snarled AFTER they did and it wasn't an over the top show. He was just letting them know to back off out of his face. After we left he played with a 4 lb yorkie(non aggressive very friendly) and other dogs at the pet stores. Just because a dog shows a little teeth doesn't mean they will esculate into a snarling beastie.  I took him out of the situation at the vets because he wasn't fair to him. The other small dogs kept right on barking and growling at new clients coming in the door while Rocky did as I asked. A dog has the right to not take any smack from little beasties. It's called dog language.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

sparra said:


> C'mon.....wer're Ausie's......not only do we hav a "different understanding of the role and authority of Government" but we are bad at speling and grandma too....or is it to...


Ther shud be a be kind to grandma day, the olde girle suffers so mutch!


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

sparra said:


> C'mon.....wer're Ausie's......not only do we hav a "different understanding of the role and authority of Government" but we are bad at speling and grandma too....or is it to...


:rofl: Oi Aussie, Aussie, Aussie! Good one 'mate'


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

sparra said:


> ....


IOW it is not the place of government to determine who is is competent enough to own what breed. Whether it is BSL banning certain breeds, or just mandating "responsible owner" requirements, it is still ultimately the government deciding what dogs can be owned by whom... 

And as an Australian, you likely have a different understanding of the role and limitations on government, since you live under a different government system than those of us in the US...


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

susee said:


> I would hope that the breeders who are currently sending dogs out without ensuring their new parents spend have a good understanding about their chosen breed will start to really ensure their dogs are going into well prepared homes ..and that the shelters that are currently sending animals out into homes that are not up to the task .......start preparing their owners a little better ,,, and on and on... because what we have experienced in the last 14 months is a total disgrace re the unbelievably high spike of trouble in dog parks with dogs and owners.
> 
> Dogs are being pts in big numbers, and owners prosecuted if they can be identified .. all these poor dogs would have had a better chance if going to a more educated home i would think.


A responsible breeder already will not sell to someone that they feel is not right for their dogs. Thats part of the whole "responsible" bit... But in order for this to carry over to ALL breedings it would require an authority to mandate it... ie Government.

So here we are again... IMO it is wrong of the government to be deciding which breeds can be owned by whom. Sure its great to say "only people who are responsible and educated about the breed should own a powerful breed like a GSD" but there is no way to make that enforceable without requiring big brother to get involved, and once he's involved we are moving into BSL-lite territory...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMO the difference in understanding is more about the role of free market principles vs gov't limitations/safety. We here in the U.S. worry more about free market principles moreso then our friends in Australia.

(Which, coincidentally, ties somewhat into the whole SL v WL debates about what type of German Shepherd should be bred. Some want to put limits there too, even though demand is what drives supply even if the demand is not for what would be considered breed standard - but that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax) 

Education is a good idea with merits but it won't fix the problems in Australia, here or elsewhere. One simply cannot educate bad 'attitudes' or laziness.

Since we can't, in reality, ban careless pet owners, the only objective and fair solution would be to severly punish irresponsible pet owners, regardless of the breed they own. Punish the offense. The severity of punishment should escalate for repeat offenders.




BR870 said:


> IOW it is not the place of government to determine who is is competent enough to own what breed. Whether it is BSL banning certain breeds, or just mandating "responsible owner" requirements, it is still ultimately the government deciding what dogs can be owned by whom...
> 
> And as an Australian, you likely have a different understanding of the role and limitations on government, since you live under a different government system than those of us in the US...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

susee said:


> Some great ideas ATPT
> And having a very very high drive working line B Coliie whose line was working Cattle and ready to roll 24/7 ..i would love someone to try and squeeze her traits into that of a little ****zu
> 
> Trying to type the breed .shi ....zu ..it does have a....... T in it does'nt it .... the computer wont write it !!!! lololol


It's Shih Tzu :thumbup:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> It's Shih Tzu :thumbup:


Personally I think it's more like **** Heads- but that's just me...


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

atruepastime said:


> its sad but the reality is its human nature to fear what we don't understand or that we perceive as a threat because it is more powerful than us and has the potential to cause harm, regardless of the animal's intention, but purely because it has the capacity. The world of pet ownership is booming and yet people seem to know a lot less about dog ownership than they did a generation or 2 back, particularly people born raised in the city. Many people own dogs, but so many no nothing about dog behaviour and raise their pets as they would a child. They expect the dog to mould its psyche around a human way of thinking. The sad thing is the councils and governments instead of pushing for the pet owning society to educate themselves on dog behaviour and what it takes to own a working breed, prefer to vilify breeds of dogs and exterminate them out of society.
> 
> One day if pitbulls, dobes, rotties, gsds are extinct, society will probably regret that once again the egotistical and cowardly human race does what it does best - destroy whole races of animals due to fear that they may attack us, the same happened in europe and america with the wolves and now we go one step further, we genetically select for dog aggression (in the case of the pitbull), then vilify the dogs and exterminate them no matter if they are the sweetest most devoted pet.. Because they are a powerful breed and have the potential to harm.
> 
> ...


Well Said!!


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

And nowhere did i suggest the Gov should become involved, i m simply suggesting that somewhere at some time shelters, breeders, councils, someone.....needs to start working out how they are going to stop the sudden spikes in serous dog to dog and dog to human attacks, its totally out of control .. and for those that dont seem to like that idea im sure it will grow on you after you'v seen kids mauled, been terrorised yourself, and seen elderly frail people attacked.

The people selling Dogs, breeding Dogs, shelters etc.. are the first line, and i bet the people on here who breed dogs are super careful about where there dogs go. And thats what im essentially saying...


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

BR870 said:


> A responsible breeder already will not sell to someone that they feel is not right for their dogs. Thats part of the whole "responsible" bit... But in order for this to carry over to ALL breedings it would require an authority to mandate it... ie Government.
> 
> So here we are again... IMO it is wrong of the government to be deciding which breeds can be owned by whom. Sure its great to say "only people who are responsible and educated about the breed should own a powerful breed like a GSD" but there is no way to make that enforceable without requiring big brother to get involved, and once he's involved we are moving into BSL-lite territory...


And that is the problem,,,, there are a huge proportion of totally irresponsible breeders from every breed... and they could use a few lessons from the breeders on here in just about everything to do with the subject..

And there are enough Canine Associations around, they all should be alarmed and be encouraging members to send pups out with owners who have some understanding o f their breed..


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Now now leave the Aussie's alone. I like my Hugh Jackman, an dAlex O'Loughlin!lol


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi Susee,

I present the below just as food for thought.

Due to my work of caring for many dogs every day I keep abreast of the dog bite issues. You mention a spike in serious dog aggresion. Is there really a spike or increase though?

I've been formulating an opinion of late that there is not a spike in dog bites but a spike in our sensitivity to dog bites and concommitant over reactions. Unfortunately most of that over reacting takes the form of government involvement via breed specific legislation.

Here's some more information:

_"In the 1970s, when major American cities were reporting tens of thousands of dog bites annually, epidemiologists and public health officials estimated the number of reported and unreported dog bites nationwide to be between 1 and 2 million._

_Today, when these same cities report declines in reported bites by as much as 90%, some academics and organizations now insist that there are 4.7 million reported and unreported dog bites in the U.S. annually._

_How can this be? How can there be one reported dog bite for every 2,000 New Yorkers and one for every 1,365 Chicagoans, according to their public health reports; yet at the same time one bite for every 64 Americans nationwide, according to telephone surveys? (300 million Americans divided by 4.7 million dog bites = 1 in every 64). "_

Link:
Dog Bites | National Canine Research Council



susee said:


> And nowhere did i suggest the Gov should become involved, i m simply suggesting that somewhere at some time shelters, breeders, councils, someone.....needs to start working out how they are going to stop the sudden spikes in serous dog to dog and dog to human attacks, its totally out of control .. and for those that dont seem to like that idea im sure it will grow on you after you'v seen kids mauled, been terrorised yourself, and seen elderly frail people attacked.
> 
> The people selling Dogs, breeding Dogs, shelters etc.. are the first line, and i bet the people on here who breed dogs are super careful about where there dogs go. And thats what im essentially saying...


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

susee said:


> And that is the problem,,,, there are a huge proportion of totally irresponsible breeders from every breed... and they could use a few lessons from the breeders on here in just about everything to do with the subject..
> 
> And there are enough Canine Associations around, they all should be alarmed and be encouraging members to send pups out with owners who have some understanding o f their breed..



The Canine Associations can't do anything about the breeding. They allow you to become a "breeder" if you pay certain fees. There are only a handful of associations that are "real" (ie AKC, UKC, CanKC, etc). Even those you can pay a fee to become a breeder. The associations and kennel clubs don't really mean much, it's the pedigree and the results from generations in the dogs linage. Everything else is just crap. There are a lot of "crap" pure bred dogs out there. MOST people who buy these dogs don't really do the research, they see a listing on craigslist, the paper, hoobly, terrificpets.com, A mall puppy store (Eeek!!), etc and get a cute little puppy. The "breeder" could put ANYTHING on the listings, it's like a resume, it can be skewed to make them sound awesome! The new owners get the puppy and don't have a clue about the breed and the "issues or quirks" not to mention if bad genetics are involved. 

Education to the consumer is something that should be done but isn't and there is no regulations on that, and I can't ever see there being any. Not sure how you would do it. Maybe make buying a puppy like buying a car, 3 hours signing papers and and education on the breed then coming up with a price. lol


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

Sadly there is a real spike in theses incidents. Dog ownership is up, and with the increase in people working and houses being empty all day many are brought in to watch the house, around here at least 60 % are empty all day, except for barking dogs.

And it's not just the dog to dog and dog to human incidents that are a worry, it's the impact on the poor actual Dogs welfare at an individual, and breed level. And the person in the thread who commented that works in welfare will be only to aware of the need for some more education, as they are the ones dealing with the animals and seeing the very distressing problem right at the coalface.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My stats are from the U.S. perhaps it's different in Australia?

The vast majority of average family dogs are not overly or truely aggressive. If you just yell at them they usually will tuck tail and run. 

I'm not 100% firm in my opinion as I want to look at the facts only, but I'm leaning towards the old "you're more likely to get hurt in a car accident then by a dog bite" adage.

Human nature being what it is our old ancestoral survival radar comes on high alert a lot more when it's a 'predator' attack reported then when it's yet another fatality in a car wreck. 

This is, of course, JMHO.





susee said:


> Sadly there is a real spike in theses incidents. Dog ownership is up, and with the increase in people working and houses being empty all day many are brought in to watch the house, around here at least 60 % are empty all day, except for barking dogs.
> 
> And it's not just the dog to dog and dog to human incidents that are a worry, it's the impact on the poor actual Dogs welfare at an individual, and breed level. And the person in the thread who commented that works in welfare will be only to aware of the need for some more education, as they are the ones dealing with the animals and seeing the very distressing problem right at the coalface.


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## susee (Apr 18, 2011)

i agree totally that the vast majority are not, what's being noticed is except for the occasional number from just about any breed, there are a few breeds who are be ing very very highly represented over and over, in normal home or street incidents, and at the off lead parks.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Sometimes I wonder if the media has a lot to do with the fact that it "appears" dog bites etc are on the increase.
Here in Australia "news" has soared to new heights. I remember when we only used to have one nightly news bulletin and that was it. Now we have one in the early morning, one at 11am, one at 4.30pm which used to go for half an hour and now goes for one hour and then another at 6pm then the late night news not to mention channels dedicated to news every hour. They have to fill all these bulletins with something so even very minor incidents can make the news. 
I don't know...for as long as you have dogs you will have poor owners. You can educate people all you want but stupid people will always own dogs..... I mean look at the number of kids in foster care or on the streets due to stupid parents......if we can't "fix" this problem in the human population then we have buckleys of doing anything about animals.
JMO.


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