# I got to run a Border Collie tonight



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Something's wrong with Pimg. She's limping on her rear leg and yelping every now and again if she moves it wrong. I took her to class anyway since I've already paid for it, but I had no intention of running her (which I didn't). I figured it was a good opportunity to work on some crate games (which we did). One of my classmates has this gorgeous blue merle BC that I personally believe has seriously amazing potential. The classmate fractured her knee cap, but tries (quite unsuccessfully) to her run her dog anyway.

So since she's basically out of commission, and my dog is basically out of commission, she asked me if I wanted to run her dog. YES! That particular BC is one of the few I'd gladly own. 

Man- those dogs are crazy fast. It's seriously weird to see them flying around an agility course from the perspective of the handler. They are so LOW like they are constantly running in stalking position. Very weird. But wow- so fast, and it was unreal how he could almost literally turn on a dime... It was a VERY fun experience-- so different from running a GSD.

After class she asked me, "So- do you want a BC now??? <wink wink, nudge nudge>"

"Nope- I'm still in love with my GSD and she will soon be equally as good. And _that's_ something to be proud of."


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I will add- when I went to the USDAA Nationals and spoke with a GSD owner who was doing really well, I asked her if she embraces a handling system like Mecklenburg or Derrett. She laughed and said, "Show me a GSD that can turn like a BC. _THEN_ I will think about a handling system created for such dogs."

That comment makes so much more sense now.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats awesome! I'd like to do agility but i'm waiting for my working line to do it or i'll get an aussie to do agility with. Sounds like you had a blast!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

What a coincidence! I was just coming to post about running my instructor's BC in class last night because Tara was out of commission.

It was such a rush to run such a fast dog and how freaking fun to handle her?! They definitely don't allow you to make any handling mistakes, do they? I'd love to run Border Collies every so often, but I agree that I'll stick to living with GSDs, thank you very much!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow! That is a crazy weird coincidence, Kristin! It was definitely a rush- no question. What a way to build your handling skills!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I have to laugh because I started with my Border collie in agility and came home the first night and told my husband I needed a slower dog so I could keep up enough to learn what I needed to do.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

My best friend of 35 years has a BC and does herding with him....they are truly amazing dogs....just not amazing enough to turn my eye from GSDs.

I envy your agility training, I hope to get back to it someday.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm so getting a BC someday!!!!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

How cool to get to run a dog you have admired! BCs are such interesting and complicated dogs. I have always loved the breed and worked with a lot of them but it never really worked out for me to have one. I thought about getting one this year but I decided on a PyrShep. Now I have a PyrShep and now I'm not sure I'd choose a BC over a PyrShep.



KZoppa said:


> thats awesome! I'd like to do agility but i'm waiting for my working line to do it or i'll get an aussie to do agility with. Sounds like you had a blast!


 Why not start with the dog you have?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yep- I do admire that dog quite a bit. It could be because in spite of his handler (no offense to her, she's a nice person- she just doesn't take instruction well from our instructor) he is really a phenomenal dog showing tons of potential, or it could be that he's the first blue merle BC I've ever seen- whatever it is, I'd own him in a heartbeat. It was just too cool.

I will be very interested to see your PyrShep run!



AgileGSD said:


> Why not start with the dog you have?


I have to agree with this. Based on my own research, WL GSDs are not _necessarily_ any faster than any other GSD line. Jump in head first, build up your own foundation of training, and then once you get that WL- you might have the skills needed to bring out all you can in it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Wildo, will you be able to run the BC while your dog heals? Be great experience for you and the BC!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I would suspect so, MRL. Truth of the matter though is that I am not sure I will be signing up for the next class in three more weeks. I have to discuss it with my instructor. There is a really good chance that I won't be- so I can focus on building foundational skills that we should have had in place a LONG time ago.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Be great if you could run the BC for free (for the other handler) so you can keep you your running skills with a course...

AND work on your foundation skills with your pup at home!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah, that's true. I'm totally stressed about that decision (to stop classes) and just sent my instructor an email about it. Hopefully we can have a sit down on that. Either way, I won't be running a BC forever. At some point, something's gotta give... It's a terribly hard decision to choose to leave practically the only training facility around- one that has awesome trainers, awesome space, awesome turf, awesome equipment, but classes that push students into sequencing WAY before they are really ready.

[EDIT]- to be clear, I LOVE agility and have no plans on stopping. In fact, quite the contrary. My goal is to make the World team. I'm not going to do that by running full courses every week with a dog that doesn't drive through weaves and has no contact performance.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> How cool to get to run a dog you have admired! BCs are such interesting and complicated dogs. I have always loved the breed and worked with a lot of them but it never really worked out for me to have one. I thought about getting one this year but I decided on a PyrShep. Now I have a PyrShep and now I'm not sure I'd choose a BC over a PyrShep.
> 
> 
> 
> *Why not start with the dog you have*?


 
Riley isnt interested in anything beyond sleeping and Shasta doesnt have the drive. She loses interest quickly and doesnt really care for running. She'll run for 3-5 minutes when off leash and then she's done and ready to go home. 

I'm waiting for my working line in a couple years because then both the kids will be in school and i'll have the time to do more that I'd like to do. I dont expect to win anything, I've just always been interested in agility and figure i may as well do it with a dog I like and can handle. BCs are just way too much. I dont know how my uncle manages his BC. That dog is just crazy intense. You'd have to meet Shasta and Riley to understand. I have a couple of the laziest dogs. I would have looked into agility classes with Zena but her hips arent the greatest and neither was her balance.

Its also not even a matter of speed. I know WL GSDs arent any faster than other lines of GSDs. I just have my line preferences and its something I'd want to do with my dog. But I have to have a dog who has the desire to do something besides go for rides in the car and chew the heck out of her kong.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I've run my trainer's BCs many times in class- they are fun! But like you, I don't actually want one. I really like having a "different" breed.
World Team is an awesome goal! World team seems very intimidating. Have you ever seen this video- it's pretty funny




My trainer and her one BC are world team worthy for sure but he's a rescue and since she doesn't have his 5-generation pedigree she can't be on the team- I really hope they change that rule, she absolutely deserves to be on the team.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

There's a 5 gen pedigree requirement? That's crazy. Well- I'm going to forget I saw this... :rofl:

My real goal is to train _as if_ we are trying to get on the World Team. Will we ever? Unlikely. Incredibly unlikely. Almost impossible. But I think it's a goal that drives decisions that make my team better. For example- learning to wrap a jump as opposed to letting my long strided dog jump way far out in some big arc. That stuff adds _seconds_ to your time. My goal is to _remove_ seconds from my time. So I'll continue to maintain a goal of training for the World Team so that we can be the best we can possibly be.

That video is hilarious!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes, it's a very unfortunate, and in my opinion, unfair requirement.

Still a great goal to have- it certainly won't hurt!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

FYI- the requirement is now a three generation pedigree:



> Dogs must have a three generation pedigree showing three generations of purebred lineage. (This is a requirement of the World Agility Championships, not the AKC.)


http://usagilityteam.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/2011_premium_list.pdf

Technically, even though Pimg is registered with a scam registry (America's Pet Registry, Inc.) I can order a 5 gen pedigree from them. :rofl:

[EDIT]- crap. The next line reads:


> The FCI requires that every dog have an AKC registration number and acceptable FCI recognized pedigree.


I doubt the FCI recognizes the APRI: the most used registry for BYBs...


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

My herding trainer has BCs and they are unbelievable! One time she had me work one of her dogs because I just wasn't understanding what was going on and I was getting Stosh all confused, so she had me take one of hers out with the big flock. It was so cool and so much fun! They are not dogs to be taken lightly!!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wildo said:


> Yeah, that's true. I'm totally stressed about that decision (to stop classes) and just sent my instructor an email about it. Hopefully we can have a sit down on that. Either way, I won't be running a BC forever. At some point, something's gotta give... It's a terribly hard decision to choose to leave practically the only training facility around- one that has awesome trainers, awesome space, awesome turf, awesome equipment, but ****ty classes that push students into sequencing WAY before they are really ready.


 It's really too bad this is the case. You'd think with the sort of instructors you have, they'd be taking a different approach to their class format. I've come to think that approaching training classes from the traditional 8 week course set up is almost always going to be less than ideal. Some dogs/handlers will always progress more quickly than others, some will always need extra work on certain things and some important things will always have to be left out because of time constraints. Ongoing, drop in classes that focus on certain skill sets rather than getting everyone to learn X skills in X time frame is much more appropriate. People progress to the next level when they and their dog have learned the skills taught at their current level, be it after 3 weeks of training in that class or 30. I guess that's for another thread though 



wildo said:


> I will be very interested to see your PyrShep run!


 Me too LOL So far he's got great potential but we're still in the foundation stage. And I definitely need to up my handling skills. I've actually started going to advanced agility classes for the first time in...years! 




wildo said:


> I have to agree with this. Based on my own research, WL GSDs are not _necessarily_ any faster than any other GSD line. Jump in head first, build up your own foundation of training, and then once you get that WL- you might have the skills needed to bring out all you can in it.


 That's exactly what I was thinking 



KZoppa said:


> Its also not even a matter of speed. I know WL GSDs arent any faster than other lines of GSDs. I just have my line preferences and its something I'd want to do with my dog. But I have to have a dog who has the desire to do something besides go for rides in the car and chew the heck out of her kong.


 Sometimes when you put time and energy into training, dogs can surprise you.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I dabble in agility.  Totally just for fun. Both Niko and Rosa take a class together (they are the only students so we get the full hour). I can see a huge difference between the two of them. Rosa (BC/GSD mix) is much more nimble and she also picks up new skills quicker than Niko. Niko is a bit more challenging to train because he always keeps an eye on me, so I have to be very careful of how I move my body or I will cue him to do something other than what I want him to do. Niko is a bit more timid on the elevated stuff too, like the dog walk.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Good_Karma said:


> Niko is a bit more challenging to train because he always keeps an eye on me, so I have to be very careful of how I move my body or I will cue him to do something other than what I want him to do.


Oh yeah! My instructor always tells me that Pimg watches me like a hawk. I have to be very, very clear in my communication or I easily pull her off course.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> It's really too bad this is the case. You'd think with the sort of instructors you have, they'd be taking a different approach to their class format. I've come to think that approaching training classes from the traditional 8 week course set up is almost always going to be less than ideal. Some dogs/handlers will always progress more quickly than others, some will always need extra work on certain things and some important things will always have to be left out because of time constraints. Ongoing, drop in classes that focus on certain skill sets rather than getting everyone to learn X skills in X time frame is much more appropriate. People progress to the next level when they and their dog have learned the skills taught at their current level, be it after 3 weeks of training in that class or 30. I guess that's for another thread though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I know my dogs. And i do put in the time and energy to train them. They have no interest. Riley is content to sleep the day away most of the time and Shasta has no drive. She gets excited about car rides and new bones to chew on. I'm really not kidding when I say I have two of the laziest dogs. Zena was my active girl who i HAD to walk every day a couple times a day even with her bad hips. These two think the walk out to the car is plenty because all they want to do is go for a ride. They seriously dont care about daily walks so convincing them to do something beyond that is just not something I've been able to achieve. Like i said, Shasta is content to run off leash for about 5 minutes before she's ready to go home.


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## TMarie (Jul 6, 2006)

wildo said:


> They are so LOW like they are constantly running in stalking position. Very weird. But wow- so fast, and it was unreal how he could almost literally turn on a dime...


This is what I love about my Border Collie. I hadn't noticed the running low until I watched her video's, and wow! The same with turning on a dime, I knew she did, and seen it, even as a small puppy, but I happened to catch a lot of photos as she is turning, and she really leans to the side when she turns. It's really neat to watch, and now I find myself paying closer attention to how she moves, especially when my husband is running her.

It is amazing how my husband and my handling skills are different when running her compared to my GSD's and my aussies in the past.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

TMarie- I'd love to see your video example of this if you care to share... :thumbup:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I guess were done with agility for a while after all: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/171957-potentially-torn-acl.html


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wildo said:


> I guess were done with agility for a while after all: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/171957-potentially-torn-acl.html



Oh that's terrible news. I'm sorry  Will keep my fingers crossed it is just a sprain.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

wildo said:


> I will add- when I went to the USDAA Nationals and spoke with a GSD owner who was doing really well, I asked her if she embraces a handling system like Mecklenburg or Derrett. She laughed and said, "Show me a GSD that can turn like a BC. _THEN_ I will think about a handling system created for such dogs."
> 
> That comment makes so much more sense now.


I would kindly disagree with that statement  Various "systems" of handling are basically how to set the line for the dog, how to handle in a way that communicates the course best to the dog, etc. I don't think it is based upon how tight a dog can turn. Everyone makes slight changes for their dog but the principles work the same. 

For example, Greg has rules such as "you only do the cross at a change of direction, and you do it as close as possible to the next obstacle." People don't follow this who only have dogs that turn tight- actually, many people with wider turning dogs follow rules such as this to allow the dog early cues so they can set themselves up for tighter turns, etc. The clearer your handling and the more consistent it is, the higher the chance of keeping your dog from "floating" the turns.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

wildo said:


> I guess were done with agility for a while after all: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/171957-potentially-torn-acl.html


aww crap...so sorry to hear...was just reading through the thread. I have friends with awesome success with prolotherapy for torn ACL.


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