# Extremely Aggressive Puppy



## Sleepyhouse22

We have ourselves a bad situation, and I'll say it's our fault to begin with by getting the puppy after all the red flags we witnessed.

We got our puppy from a backyard breeder it seems, though at the time, they told us they have an accidental litter. Now that they have a second litter, I don't believe that's the case at all.

They were trying to shove the puppies off to us at just 4.5 weeks. We told them no, we want them to spend as much time with the mom and litter mates as possible. We left him there until he was 7 weeks but by the time we picked him up, the mom had nothing to do with the puppies for weeks and all the other puppies had been released to the buyers. 

We took him home and realized he's completely skin and bones under his massive coat of fur. He had yellow diarrhea and was vomiting. He refused to eat, but was still drinking. We took him to the vet clinic and found out he has hookworms and coccidia, got him medicine and some wet canned food. He weighs just 3 pounds and should weigh 6 pounds... you can feel his spine, collar bone, ribs, hind legs completely... he has no fat or meat on him what so ever, thus he just lays there like a vegetable. He shows some signs of life like he wants to play every now and then, but he doesn't have the energy to play for more than a minute.

That's not the problem. We are gladly nursing him back to health and the more we get him to eat and the more medicine he takes, the more life he is showing.



The problem:

He's showing *EXTREME* aggression. *I'm not talking about a puppy playing or play biting.* This is extreme aggression. For a sick, weak 7 week old puppy, he has a STRONG bite. In a matter of two days, he's showed about seven cases of aggression. 

Major events:

I reached near his bowl to pick up kibble falling out and he growled and full out bit me (HARD). It was shocking, and I would NEVER expect this kind of behavior from a baby.

He growls EVERY time we stick our hands in/near the bowl, pet him, etc. It makes it very difficult for a puppy that isn't eating, that when he does decide to take a bite of food once or twice a day, that he turns into the devil. Otherwise, I would be pulling his bowl away and trying to train him (we already had our other dog's trainer scheduled to come over today for the aggression, but cancelled because of how weak he is).

We had his litter mate (my friend got one) come over to visit and they had a full on fight. No, again, not puppy fighting. This was extremely aggressive fighting and they had to be ripped apart.

Last night he finally gathered enough energy to play and was biting on a toy. When my boyfriend started pulling it away, he started growling. We thought okay... THIS may be play growling... until he freaking snapped and tried to full out attack my boyfriend.

All of this behavior is beyond just food aggression. It's possessiveness in general over EVERYTHING he thinks is his at this point.

I have two cats who love to be around our english bully while he eats and he loves on them. He allows them to be all over him, so this is a very scary situation to have an aggressive puppy on your hands that has proven that this is INSTINCT and not a badly developed habit from poor owners. We've had him for two days only and this is insane.

I can't sit by and wait for him to kill any one of my pets, or become possessive of one of us and flip out on them or another person.



While I have truly already made my own decision on not keeping this puppy because of the high risk that's already been shown, I want to know if this is actually normal. I know I'm going to get a lot of comments about how this is "normal puppy behavior", but I'm telling you that it was not PUPPY behavior. This truly is not playing. But is it normal for puppies to exhibit this kind of instinctual aggressive behavior at 7 weeks?! Would it be because he's sick? Because he was not taught these behavior corrections by his mother or litter mates? I have a million thoughts running through my mind as to why this would have occurred and all lead to him not being taken care of by the breeders properly. Thus, it's now instinctual, not normal, and something that can be very high risk to all of us in the household.

Any thoughts or experience with this is highly appreciated. Everything I find online says "your puppy isn't aggressive, he's not old enough to be aggressive, he's trying to play!" And this just isn't the case at all...


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## LaRen616

I sent you a PM.


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## LaRen616

Bump.

OP needs help!


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## GSDGunner

I am sure the more experienced will come by soon.

I have no qualifications to give advice, but wanted to lend my support.


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## Lucy Dog

This is not normal behavior for a puppy. A puppy with food aggression and fighting with it's own littermates at this age is far from normal puppy behavior. Probably has a lot to do with the environment he came from, but I can't see anyone saying what you described as normal for a two month old pup. 

Since you've already made the decision not to keep him, what are you going to do with him? Is the "breeder" taking him back?


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## Jax08

Get a trainer. My guess is that he was the one that had to fight to survive. Think about...he's all skin and bones...he was the last one left (meaning nobody picked him). Start NILIF. Look up Bite Inhibition threads. Get a trainer.

ETA: Missed the part where she wasn't keeping him. Call a rescue. They'll get a trainer.


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## LBKgsd

so you ask if this is normal behavior, but then continue to TELL us that it wasnt. 

What's your point?... It seems you have already decided what kind of behavior this is.


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## LaRen616

I suggested that the OP get a behavioralist involved before rehoming.


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## Lucy Dog

LBKgsd said:


> so you ask if this is normal behavior, but then continue to TELL us that it wasnt.
> 
> What's your point?... It seems you have already decided what kind of behavior this is.


What's your point in even posting something like this? The OP probably isn't the most experienced dog person (we all start somewhere), so give him/her a shot.

They're asking for advice. This is the kind of stuff that makes people give up on this forum before even given the advice they've asked for.

Would you rather they not post this asking for help and just dump the dog off somewhere?


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## Kris10

What a horrible situation. While it is hard to imagine such a young pup truly showing aggression, this pup has been through a terrible situation. It might be in some kind of survival mode right now re: its food. But please don't give up on the poor thing after 2 days... 

If you fear the safety of your other pets simply keep them separated for now. 

Give the pup a chance to eat and get healthy. He probably feels just awful right now. 
GSD pups do bite and play rough, but the growling and other thing at 7 weeks --what you describe sounds abnormal. Hard to tell without seeing the behavior...

In a nutshell, get professional help. This is a young pup, I hope you can help turn things around for him. He is counting on you! Good luck...


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## Myamom

awww...poor baby. He's had a rough start...doesn't sound like he came from a good situation....was separated from his littermates too soon...skin and bones...sick....he's a product of that. That being said...I think at his age...he can be worked with. 

I would:
1. Get a good behavioralist.
2. Contact a good GSD rescue.


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## codmaster

Probably had to be aggressive at such a young age to survive or at least thought he did. I would suspect that a good behaviorist and good care can change his mind about things and let the little guy develop more normally.


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## gagsd

What area are you in?


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## gsdraven

Did you meet the parents of your puppy? Were they friendly and approachable?


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## BlackPuppy

Sounds like it's an extreme case of guarding behavior. Probably why he was so skinny when you got him. I have had puppies with guarding behavior. The first thing to do is gather all the toys up and put them away. 

Then feed the puppy out of your hand. I'm talking every morsel of food comes from your hand one piece at a time. You may be doing this for a while. You'll know its working when you start seeing some submissive behavior and, hopefully, some normal puppy behaviors, like tail wagging and panting.

If you think he's settling down, bring out a toy and play with the puppy. Always take the toy away when you are finished playing. The toys are YOURS not his. Put them on top of the refrigerator. 

The hand feeding works really well. I've used it myself, and I've heard with extreme behavioral problems that hand feeding for several months really made a huge difference. I've never done it for more than 2 weeks myself. I think a young puppy will catch on quickly. 

Another thing I see other do...don't be afraid of the puppy and growling. If it wants to keep the toy and growls at you, be firm, but not abusive. Quietly, and confidently, take the toy away. It's important not to show extreme emotions of anger, or affection to the puppy.

Something else to do is make sure the puppy is not on his own except in a confined area. If the puppy goes outside, you go with him. Try to spend as much time as possible with him. Interacting at this point is not as important as being there. I'd probably keep a leash on him, also, so he knows that anything he does has to be with your permission.



Are you leaving the food bowl out for him all day? Get him on a feeding schedule of 3 times a day. Hand feed like I describe above. This will pass soon.


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## valreegrl

OP, this is a horrific situation and the reason why so many on this board are huge advocates of BYB Beware. 

What is the resolution you ultimately want? Behavior modification/rehabilitation and she stays with you?
Return to the breeder?
Rehome through rescue? 

I would contact a VERY good rescue (if you choose that route) and definitely one who has the resources to handle this situation through professional guidance. 

Returning to the breeder may be the worst choice here. 

If you choose to keep her seek out a few behaviorists and interview extensively. I would want to know exactly how they are going to handle this pup. 
Possibly board and train for a while until they get a handle on the dog then slowly begin to re-integrate into your household. 

Something else to think about....this pup sounds like it is very sick. Possibly starved, full of parasites/worms. This could have a huge impact on the pups behavioral issues.

Question: is this pup drawing blood? Is it a snap and release or is she holding on?


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## CPH

BlackPuppy what an amazingly insightful post. To the OP i think you have some great advice here already and while I am not an expert i would just say please don't give up on this poor puppy yet. He is obviously malnourished, scared and probably feels abandoned. It may take time but he is so young to give up on.

You have an amazing support team here with some extremely knowledgeable people. I wish you and your pup the best.


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## warpwr

My 2 cents worth.
This puppy can be rehabbed easily and probably soon if you find someone that knows how.
In the meantime read the suggestions here. I especially like the hand feed suggestion.

You can become this new puppy dog's hero and he will love you dearly forever for saving him.
You will love him dearly because you were the one who changed him from wild dog to who knows... therapy dog? Search and rescue?
You have a wonderful opportunity. 

Best Friends rehabilitated 22 of Michael Vick's worst case pit bulls for heaven's sake. 
http://www.bestfriends.org/vickdogs/
They call them the Vicktory Dogs.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Hey all, sorry I haven't been able to respond. I want to reply to everybody individually and I will start off with this:

We are experienced dog people, but with a different breed. I have had two English Bulldogs and the one I have now has gone through extensive dog training. He actually has lifetime dog training at a local facility and the trainer we were going to bring to the house to work the puppy is the guy who trained my bully. 

My reason for saying this isn't normal puppy behavior is because I know not everybody's puppy has exhibited this type of behavior. My reason why asking if this is "normal" is because that's everybody's response that I've found online to it. Thus, it's contradictory. I know it's not normal... but everybody says it is even though their dogs haven't shown that behavior. 

I have contacted the breeders and they're saying that it's normal. We met both of the parents and they're EXTREMELY well trained dogs, however, they live in the country. We are located in Dallas, TX and they're located an hour and a half outside of it. We drove to their house every other weekend since he was born to make sure he was okay and to watch his growth. He started out as the biggest puppy and quickly became the smallest. I remember them saying that he was a huge bully when it came to feeding with the mom and ever since they were weened he shrunk to the smallest. Now my friend, who had the smallest, now has the biggest (he is food obsessive now because I believe he didn't get enough food while with the mother). He has trouble eating hard kibble which is what the breeders were feeding him. They said he was eating fine and I think that was a bold faced lie. 

Basically, they misled us to believe they were great breeders and they're still trying to tell us this.

We wanted to give him back to the breeders so that he would be in a familiar place. He acts feral as if the country is a better place for him, but the breeders accidentally mistexted my boyfriend after they hung up on a conversation about this all: "They're ridiculous lol". They must think we're truly insane, even though they handed over a half dead dog to us who couldn't even walk. My friend's puppy is running and down stairs and our puppy doesn't have enough muscle in his hind legs to even walk without falling every few steps.

I have thought about getting him training all day today, but the worries are just too large... correcting something like pooping in the house is one thing. They're going to poop five to ten times before they learn. Is he going to have to attack five to ten times before he learns? The risk is not worth assuming that he's corrected, if you know what I mean.

We were thinking about posting a flyer at the dog training facility we use for somebody to contact us. My boyfriend doesn't want to hand him off without people knowing that he's aggressive. I'd prefer he goes to a home with no other animals and no kids. It looks like the breeders aren't willing to work with us on it, so we're going to have to find responsible people to take him on. I don't plan on handing him over to a shelter or anywhere like that. I get that he's a puppy, but I don't have the kind of household that's suitable for training aggression out of a dog.


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## vat

BlackPuppy gave some excellent advice. But I wonder if the weight you put was a type. I think you said the pup was 3 lbs and should be 6? If this pup is 7 weeks I would think he should be more than 6 lbs. When I bring my pups home at 9 weeks they are 13 lbs. Breeders am I wrong on the weight?

I think that allot of his problems are being sick and the environment he started out in. I do think if you work on it he will turn around. I understand why you are thinking of giving up but I do hope you will change your mind. After all you did decide to bring him into your life. But if you do decide it is to much for you please please find a rescue to take him. Do not return him to the breeder or drop him at a shelter.


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## Good_Karma

I think this puppy belongs in an experienced foster home. And you should send a big fat donation to the rescue you place him with.

I'd say this was a learning experience for you. When you are ready to find your next GSD, please check out some of the great threads on here about finding a responsible breeder.


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## Rerun

No, you're not wrong. The weight is way off. He should be at least 10 lbs.


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## CPH

vat said:


> I think that allot of his problems are being sick and the environment he started out in. I do think if you work on it he will turn around. I understand why you are thinking of giving up but I do hope you will change your mind. After all you did decide to bring him into your life. But if you do decide it is to much for you please please find a rescue to take him. Do not return him to the breeder or drop him at a shelter.


I completely agree with this. Biting and agressesion should definately not be tolerated and needs correcting but agression in a 7 week old puppy is very different than agression in a 7 month old puppy.I feel as though you at least need to TRY to correct this puppy before giving up. You never know if a few more days after getting comfortable, having consistent food and some love you may have a very different puppy on your hands.


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## vat

I hope that you will reconsider a rescue and not giving him to just anyone. The person you select may just be the one that ends his life!


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## Stevenzachsmom

If you are intent on giving him up, I agree that a good rescue would be best. Can you post your general location so people may be able to point you in the direction of a reputable rescue in your area?


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## Sleepyhouse22

BlackPuppy said:


> Then feed the puppy out of your hand. I'm talking every morsel of food comes from your hand one piece at a time. You may be doing this for a while. You'll know its working when you start seeing some submissive behavior and, hopefully, some normal puppy behaviors, like tail wagging and panting.
> ...
> 
> Another thing I see other do...don't be afraid of the puppy and growling. If it wants to keep the toy and growls at you, be firm, but not abusive. Quietly, and confidently, take the toy away. It's important not to show extreme emotions of anger, or affection to the puppy.
> 
> Are you leaving the food bowl out for him all day? Get him on a feeding schedule of 3 times a day. Hand feed like I describe above. This will pass soon.


He does okay being fed by hand, but he sees no difference between your hand and the food. He becomes very aggressive with the hand to where it hurts. Whenever he was biting at the chicken leg he full on latched on and wouldn't let go. It was truly a death grip as if he REALLY needed it. I've had a puppy latch onto my bulldog's ear like this before and it took a good two full minutes of slowly pulling the puppy off as it tore through my dog's ear.

The problem is that he's not eating. He seems to eat what he wants and isn't responding to our kibble and often times wet food. The vet gave us a calorie rich food and said the important thing right now is to not worry about what food we're giving him, but he needs food period. He's eating more and more, but not on the food that I want him on obviously, but at this point, it's whatever he will eat. 

And it's not the growling I'm afraid of or responding to, but it's the full out attack bites that come after the growling. At least he warns us, right?  But even being attacked by a puppy is shocking and painful when they really want to hurt you or are fearing something. 

I will try 100% feeding by hand though to see if this changes. Thank you for the suggestion. 



valreegrl said:


> What is the resolution you ultimately want? Behavior modification/rehabilitation and she stays with you?
> Return to the breeder?
> Rehome through rescue?
> 
> Question: is this pup drawing blood? Is it a snap and release or is she holding on?


The puppy isn't strong enough to draw blood (though he did have a death grip on the chicken)... I think in a few weeks he'll be able to draw blood. 

The resolution I wanted was to return him to the breeder and get a refund and then get a puppy that's older that's been with his litter longer. I wanted a second chance to do this the right way. I understand to many that's not the right thing to do, but I'm just keeping the thoughts of the rest of my animals in mind. They've actually responded great to the puppy... he's a great little dog and could fit in nicely, but I've never experienced this kind of behavior before and it really scares the crap out of me. 



warpwr said:


> My 2 cents worth.
> This puppy can be rehabbed easily and probably soon if you find someone that knows how.
> In the meantime read the suggestions here. I especially like the hand feed suggestion.
> 
> You can become this new puppy dog's hero and he will love you dearly forever for saving him.
> You will love him dearly because you were the one who changed him from wild dog to who knows... therapy dog? Search and rescue?
> You have a wonderful opportunity.
> 
> Best Friends rehabilitated 22 of Michael Vick's worst case pit bulls for heaven's sake.
> http://www.bestfriends.org/vickdogs/
> They call them the Vicktory Dogs.


I know it's a great opportunity, but after all of this, I don't even know if I would feel comfortable training him in Schutzhund which is what we were going to do. I wouldn't want to excite this kind of emotion out of him any more because he doesn't seem to understand the pack mentality, discipline, order, etc. that he should have from the mom and litter. I just can't see trusting a dog like that... 

We're talking about a dog that develops to a massive size within six months even... That's what's worrying me. I know in the long run he could be corrected, but I have from the time now until it doesn't hurt so much when he attacks... to say... three months when it will bleed, he will thrash, etc. - so that gives me a month before all of this action can cause SERIOUS damage to my animals and me. It's quite scary. I wish the little guy was raised properly. I agree about the BYB beware. I didn't want a BYB breeder and was very disappointed to find out that that's exactly what they are. Very difficult to trust people and that they're caring for the puppies right. We tried staying on top of them too for as long as we could. They've become irritable with us because we HAVE been so nosey and high maintenance.

In the mean time I do plan on working with him on this aggression, and I plan on finding a family from the training facility that will be working with the behavioralist there after we do.


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## Sleepyhouse22

vat said:


> BlackPuppy gave some excellent advice. But I wonder if the weight you put was a type. I think you said the pup was 3 lbs and should be 6? If this pup is 7 weeks I would think he should be more than 6 lbs. When I bring my pups home at 9 weeks they are 13 lbs. Breeders am I wrong on the weight?
> 
> I think that allot of his problems are being sick and the environment he started out in. I do think if you work on it he will turn around. I understand why you are thinking of giving up but I do hope you will change your mind. After all you did decide to bring him into your life. But if you do decide it is to much for you please please find a rescue to take him. Do not return him to the breeder or drop him at a shelter.


Oh over six? I only said that because the vet said he should be double that at least. So he is three pounds and should be more... that's really shocking and disturbing. It really disgusts me that people would not recognize that a puppy is starving to death and be shocked that he has extreme aggression problems.


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## sagelfn

I agree with Leah.

If you can't work with a professional then soon like today, tomorrow contact a GSD rescue. Even if you have to give them a big fat donation give this pup a chance at a life. He needs work, it will be easier while he is so young. 

Do not do a private adoption. If they can't deal with the pups issues how long until they give up and push him off on someone else? Would hate to see this pup in a shelter a year from now on death row because no one helped him now.

Think of it as a tough lesson learned. Walk away with your head high knowing a rescue will make sure that pup gets the kind of care he needs and know that where ever he gets placed if that home doesn't work out he will go back to that rescue for a new home and never end up sitting on death row.


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## Sleepyhouse22

I'm in Dallas, TX by the way.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Yes, we've definitely decided that we will go through Man's Best Friend to rehabilitate him before finding a good home for him. I don't want him going to just any home where he won't get the proper training needed, but more importantly, his health really concerns me. I'd rather know that a foster parent will be all over this at the same time.


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## BlackPuppy

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> He does okay being fed by hand, but he sees no difference between your hand and the food. He becomes very aggressive with the hand to where it hurts. Whenever he was biting at the chicken leg he full on latched on and wouldn't let go.


A whole chicken leg? I guess you are feeding raw. You need to feed him small amounts at a time, like a teaspoon size. I know it hurts, _I've been there_. If he's too rough close your hand say "ouch", it doesn't have to be a loud "ouch", and offer the food again. You want him eating SMALL pieces out of your palm. If he won't stop being rough, take a 10 minute break and start again. 

With all his siblings gone, he never learned that biting hurts so much. It sounds like it's only been a couple of days. Give him some time. 

I have had a bloody scarred arm from one of my puppies. That was my nightmare dog, and now is very sweet. You need to carefully teach life's lessons. You'll get there.


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## Sleepyhouse22

BlackPuppy said:


> A whole chicken leg? I guess you are feeding raw. You need to feed him small amounts at a time, like a teaspoon size. I know it hurts, _I've been there_. If he's too rough close your hand say "ouch", it doesn't have to be a loud "ouch", and offer the food again. You want him eating SMALL pieces out of your palm. If he won't stop being rough, take a 10 minute break and start again.
> 
> With all his siblings gone, he never learned that biting hurts so much. It sounds like it's only been a couple of days. Give him some time.
> 
> I have had a bloody scarred arm from one of my puppies. That was my nightmare dog, and now is very sweet. You need to carefully teach life's lessons. You'll get there.


He pulled the chicken leg out of my left hand while I was ripping off parts with my right. I definitely wasn't trying to give him a chicken bone lol. But, I did finally resort to feeding him chicken because he was not having any intake of food at that point and with diarrhea and vomiting, it kept getting scarier. I had to break down and give him the friggin' chicken. 

I'll try the ouch thing. I've been doing that with his play biting, which he does great with, but I still want to instill "ouch" with him so I've been doing that. Again, he does GREAT with play biting. He just lies on his back with his mouth open barely closing. 

The chicken we've been mixing with the wet food and kibble... all of it at once to try and trick him into eating more. It seems to be working out, but I can't see feeding the wet food out of our hands. I can try it though.


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## BlackPuppy

Did I just read he's only 3 pounds? I think the first thing is getting a lot of food into him! That explains the death grip. My 55 pound adult dog was 7 pounds when I picked her up at 8 weeks. She was also skin and bone. The breeder laughed at me, too, when I said she was awfully skinny.

Forget the hand feeding until he gets some muscle. It sounds like he needs to be in intensive care. Poor thing.


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## vat

What brand of kibble did you try? Maybe you said and I missed it. You could also try ground beef. Roll it into little balls and hand feed at least then he will not be fighting for it. Put them into the palm of your hand, they seem to miss the fingers that way.

I had a pup that was a biter and I clicker trained him no bite. Here is what I did. I would put a small treat in my hand and close my fist. He of course would try to bite at my hand. I would say no bite and then the second he stopped I would click treat! It worked great, give it a try.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Leave the puppy alone when he eats. You give him his food in his crate and leave him. You feed him several times a day, small amounts so he knows food is coming. You can hand feed treats throughout the day (treats can be food), you can toss the treats on the floor so you don't get into biting/not biting. He does not want to eat probably - I think you said this - because his belly is full of worms. He also needs to be on a regular deworming schedule. Leave him alone while he eats, please. 

When I have puppies in foster, I often try to picture - how would a human animal react to having in this situation - and people who are starving have eaten other people - so we get the idea that starvation and illness can make us something we are not. You are not seeing this true puppy.

I feed combos of real, cooked foods like chicken, simple protein (one protein) limited ingredient canned and kibble. I will slurry that. 

In truth, your puppy is dying and needs to be treated as a medical case. 

I am not sure - is he going to rescue or ???

Did you say you would go back to the person who produced this for another dog? 

Just checking - lots of posts and I am catching up.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Sent you a pm


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## carmspack

why burden the rescue , give the puppy back and don't get another one from there.
That is what my advice would be.
You don't know what is going on with this dog. Brain development may be altered and unchangeable (organically). 
So far the only "winning" one is the byb.
Carmen


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## Rott-n-GSDs

carmspack said:


> why burden the rescue , give the puppy back and don't get another one from there.
> That is what my advice would be.
> You don't know what is going on with this dog. Brain development may be altered and unchangeable (organically).
> So far the only "winning" one is the byb.
> Carmen


If the BYB is not going to give the money back, what purpose would giving the puppy back serve? It would only be the death of the puppy... the BYB still gets the money.


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## neiltus

pm to you...


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## carmspack

I understand Rott this is a terrible situation. I am so fed up with these greeder breeders who are always off the hook when it comes to responsiblity for what they have done.
Everyone looses but them. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Rescues are good with these kind of burdens - we like to get them and help when we have the best chance, rather than 6 months down the road. 

Beware anyone offering to take the dog that you have not thoroughly checked out, rescues included. You want to do reference checks and home visits as well as vet checks. 

This pup should not be passed around until he's unworkable, if he survives, he needs to be with people who will either keep him forever and have true experience and success - you see that having "dog" experience does not prepare you for everything, or a rescue that will give him a lifetime safety net. 

If he were in NYS we would take him.

ETA - Amen to that...


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## Crookedcreekranch

I am SHOCKED that a 7 week old puppy would weigh only 3 POUNDS!!!! My pups at 6 week check up ...the very smallest are in the 9 pound range.

What...this dog has terrible medical problems from the coccidia and worms....good grief no wonder the behavior...aggressive and lethargic....OMG ....I feel horrible for you and the puppy.

Coccidia CAN cause enough internal damage that the puppy may never properly recover I am so sorry. 

Jean is right ....a good rescue is what is needed for this pup.


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## DharmasMom

I'm no expert but I have to agree with Jean, this puppy is starving to death. That is causing is lethargy and his aggression. I imagine I would attack someone over food as well if only weighed 1/3 of what I should. I'm actually surprised a vet would send home a puppy that malnourished. 

Please, please contact a GSD rescue near you for this puppy. That really is the best option for him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thinking some more - he may need fluids and I think they call it parental nutrition via IV?


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## onyx'girl

Makes you wonder if his lack of nutrition in this important developmental stages is going to affect his temperament, let alone his health and structure. Those "breeders" should be chewed out and versed on proper puppy raising(being nice here)


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## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Thinking some more - he may need fluids and I think they call it parental nutrition via IV?



I know that is what they call it in people. Total Parental Nutrition- TPN.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Thanks for the posts and PMs everybody, it's been very helpful. I'm on my iPhone right now so I'll reply to everybody tomorrow when I can.

Essentially, yes, the puppy does seem to be starving to death. It's very tough because you would think a puppy that was starved to death would want as much food as possible, but it is very hit or miss in getting him to eat. The deworming medicine has not shown any signs of removing the worms yet so that is also worrisome. He's also on medicine for the coccidia, but he still has diarrhea. At this point it'd be impossible to enforce any kind of aggression corrections because he's not even obsessive over his food until he wants to eat, which is rare.

It also seems like he's only eating what he wants though. A starving puppy shouldn't be choosing only to respond to human food and not his kibble or wet food.

By the way, the kibble is both purina puppy chow (what the breeders were feeding) and taste of the wild (what we were going to transition him to). The wet food is from the vet and it's a calorie rich science diet canned food. He doesn't seem to respond to dog treats either. He did the first day, but not since.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

I would also back up the recommendations for a good rescue organization rather than rehoming to a private party. Keep in mind that since this puppy is showing aggressive tendencies, and since it is no secret (posted on a public forum) if something ends up happening down the road with a private party, they might try to hold you liable. A rescue organization is your best bet to not only save the puppy, but also to protect your own interests.

IMO this puppy should be in inpatient care at a vet clinic. The medical issues he is facing just seem to be mounting... and puppies go downhill so quickly. Please do not wait... please get a rescue involved ASAP or take him back into the vet. He should probably be on IV if he's refusing to eat. The illnesses and parasites are probably making him feel sick and therefore not want to eat. He might also simply be giving up, the poor little guy.


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## middleofnowhere

sometimes baby food will work to get them to eat. Or roast turkey.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I agree with that - that the pup needs to be at a vet office. 



> A starving puppy shouldn't be choosing only to respond to human food and not his kibble or wet food.


Having known starving puppies too sick to eat, yes, they may only respond to certain foods. Please get the puppy to a vet to get fluids and the total parental nutrition in - you have to ask for that by name. Without fluids, animals do not eat. They stop. 

This puppy really needs to be in clinic with round the clock care.


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## rebelsgirl

Reading about this puppy and how malnourished he is, I wonder if the puppy's brain hasn't fully developed correctly. I believe in some small part nutrition can have something to do with behavior. Also if he is in pain, it could make the puppy lash out.

If you look for a rescue, there is the one I got my two Shepherds from. It's called Good Shepherd of North Texas. It's ran by a woman named Kathleen. I don't know if she could accommodate a puppy with issues, but she may know someone who can.

I hope with good nutrition and water available to this pup,it'll help it's disposition. Maybe once he's feeling better you will see a better behaved puppy.


----------



## sagelfn

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I agree with that - that the pup needs to be at a vet office.
> 
> Having known starving puppies too sick to eat, yes, they may only respond to certain foods. Please get the puppy to a vet to get fluids and the total parental nutrition in - you have to ask for that by name. Without fluids, animals do not eat. They stop.
> 
> This puppy really needs to be in clinic with round the clock care.


:thumbup: I agree with Jean he needs to be on an IV getting round the clock care.

I didn't read the earlier post correctly that said he was only 3lbs  poor little guy. I hope he makes it and there isn't any long term damage.


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## Emoore

rebelsgirl said:


> I believe in some small part nutrition can have something to do with behavior.


Nutrition has quite a bit to do with behavior.


----------



## Emoore

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> Essentially, yes, the puppy does seem to be starving to death. It's very tough because you would think a puppy that was starved to death would want as much food as possible, but it is very hit or miss in getting him to eat.


Not necessarily. Starvation wreaks havoc on the body's hormones, and hormones are what govern hunger and satiety. Appetite, hunger, and fullness gets all out of whack when a person or animal is starving. Keep in mind also that his stomach is very very small, so he probably gets uncomfortably full quite easily, almost like a person who's had gastric bypass. So he gets uncomfortable and painful because he's hungry, so he eats, then he gets painfully full quite quickly.

Poor little guy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Bottom line: starvation/undernourishment needs to be treated first. ASAP as in now.


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## carmspack

what emoore is saying about the hormones refers to the mind body connection.

Can you give the dog some body temperature goat milk , full fat , not skim. The fat will help brain development , the temperature will make it more comfortable to consume and easier to digest. Goat milk is very easy to digest . The protein molecule of goat milk is smaller so easier to break down.

Can you whisk an egg yolk into this . 

Add kefir , cultured milk , if it is available in your area . 
If not go to the dairy case at your grocery and get some Bio K About Probiotics | Bio-K+

Without minerals enzymes don't work . Can you get encapsulated spirulina or dulse and add that to the food. Very good for the immune system. - Spirulina For Nutrition

If not head to the health food store and get Concen Trace ConcenTrace® Trace Mineral Drops - Trace Minerals Research

We can't know how compromised this little pup is all you can do is to do your best.

hope this is helpful
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

just thought of something.

How aggressive is this pup when food is not involved.

If you were to swaddle him in a towel and hold him in close to you under your arm with some pressure could you feed him this liquid mixture (previous post) from a turkey baster or cake decorator thingy. 

Swaddling and slight pressure is comforting . There is even a shirt or coat which sort of hugs the animal and relieves anxiety Thunder Shirt / Thunder Coat Thundershirt | The Best Dog Anxiety Treatment . I believe Dr Temple Grandin had something to do with this invention Dr. Temple Grandin ? Humane Livestock Handler: Inventor of Livestock Handling Systems, Animal Advocate . I know she developed a shoot which "hugs" cattle to make them less stressed . She was all about humane treatment of livestock. Fabulous woman.

Have the dog facing away from you , looking to the same direction , rather than you looking at it eye to eye because that can be intimidating and stressfull especially around food. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## vat

I agree he should be at the vets, I am surprised the vet sent him home! And the breeders that did this need to be starved!


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## Good_Karma

Hoping to hear from the OP that this sick baby is at the vet getting treatment.


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## neiltus

Very bad place to be in, however the more I re-read the OPs comments there seems to be some items that just don't make sense from their perspective.


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## Sleepyhouse22

neiltus said:


> Very bad place to be in, however the more I re-read the OPs comments there seems to be some items that just don't make sense from their perspective.


Something I said isn't adding up? Or the situation is difficult to understand?


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## Sleepyhouse22

carmspack said:


> what emoore is saying about the hormones refers to the mind body connection.
> 
> Can you give the dog some body temperature goat milk , full fat , not skim. The fat will help brain development , the temperature will make it more comfortable to consume and easier to digest. Goat milk is very easy to digest . The protein molecule of goat milk is smaller so easier to break down.


Thanks for the advice. I was wondering if he would be okay on milk. I've been worried about upsetting his stomach further, but goat milk sounds like it'd be perfect in this situation. 

He's not always aggressive about food (as I mentioned, very hard to get him to eat), and it's not only food. It's aggression in general. We noticed that he doesn't act interested in food spilt onto the floor until one of my cats approaches a piece of food on the floor and then he dodges at it like it's his... doesn't even eat it though.

Now he's obsessive about trying to eat his poop. Very head strong about it. I assume for he nutrients, but again, he could be getting this from the food.  Aggravating.


*We're planning on reporting the breeders in some way. How can we go about doing this?* We are first going to confront them about the severe condition of the puppy which we have already discussed with them. Then I plan on calling Animal Control? The police? Somebody? Any suggestions or knowledge about doing this would be appreciated.


----------



## Emoore

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> *We're planning on reporting the breeders in some way. How can we go about doing this?* We are first going to confront them about the severe condition of the puppy which we have already discussed with them. Then I plan on calling Animal Control? The police? Somebody? Any suggestions or knowledge about doing this would be appreciated.


If they have other animals that are starving, animals in unsafe conditions, insufficient food or water, lack of shelter, etc., animal control can intervene. If you have laws in your area about what age puppies can be sent homes, animal control can do something about that. 

If you don't have a law about sending pups home at a certain age and when animal control drops in all their dogs have food, water, and shelter and don't appear to be starving then they won't do much.


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## carmspack

Take some of the stimulation out of eating . Don't make him fight for himself .
Give him the food in his crate in a quiet area and leave him alone. No cats competing, no fussing and stressing from you. Give and leave. He eats when he is ready and how much he can , whenever he wants even if it is only a pinch at a time.

Speak to your vet -- he should know whether there are lots of owners coming with problems from the same place. He may not say much to you because of client confidentiality.
Carmen


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## GSDAlphaMom

I think I recall you are in the Dallas area. 

I wouldn't give them a heads up else they may try to clean the place up before authroites pay a visit. I would start with calling animal control.


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## carmspack

I believe the OP said that their friend also got a pup out of this litter and he is okay?
bigger --- maybe there is just something organically wrong , some inner malformation, underdeveloped kidneys, heart , something .
In any case no pup should be sold that has any questionable health. You don't pass on your problems , part of being responsible to the life you brought into the world.
Of course byb don't care - and that is the bottom line , don't care about much at all.
??
Carmen


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## GSDElsa

I can't add any other advice to this thread. But please please please next time do some serious research before choosing a breeder. I would have hi-tailed it out of there at the first mention of taking a dog home at 4.5 weeks. If you are planning on doing SchH, find a breeder who competes regularily in the sport and does all the necessary health testing. There are some good breeders in TX. You should be going to those.

Ther eis a responsible breeder sticky on here. It's definitely a good read so you don't go wrong next time.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Yes, I agree. As I mentioned in the first post, it's our fault to begin with. We were going to walk away and brought up all of our concerns with the breeder. We really trusted them way too much because we actually visited their house three or four times while the puppy was being brought up. 

Again, yes, we should have left and gave up the deposit, but I just kept thinking... okay so maybe they're a little incapable... how badly could a puppy end up though? And we took the risk of receiving a perfectly fine puppy.


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## JustMeLeslie

Hi, I am just catching up here on everything that has happened. How is the puppy now?


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## neiltus

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> Something I said isn't adding up? Or the situation is difficult to understand?


Regardless of my opinion of the situation and your previous comments, a GSD that weighs 3lbs @ 7wks with the diagnosed conditions you stated earlier should be under the immediate care of a vet. It should not be at it's house being exposed to other dogs, it should not be playing with it's littermate, and the owner should not be worrying about what agency to call to get back at the breeder.

You own this dog, get it care-if the vet you are using is a friend of the breeder, find another vet.

When you are asking about how bad it can get, you seriously need to re-eval the situation regarding the dogs care.


----------



## Sleepyhouse22

neiltus said:


> Regardless of my opinion of the situation and your previous comments, a GSD that weighs 3lbs @ 7wks with the diagnosed conditions you stated earlier should be under the immediate care of a vet. It should not be at it's house being exposed to other dogs, it should not be playing with it's littermate, and the owner should not be worrying about what agency to call to get back at the breeder.
> 
> You own this dog, get it care-if the vet you are using is a friend of the breeder, find another vet.
> 
> When you are asking about how bad it can get, you seriously need to re-eval the situation regarding the dogs care.


Yes, certainly. I agree. The reason we haven't given him to the vet is because he JUST came back from vet. We have him on medication, and we're feeding him. The vet is not a friend of the breeder. The breeder lives very far away from here, so I'm not worried about that.

I'm not worrying about how to get back at the breeder over the care of the dog. You're kind of overreacting to my situation and trying to pin me, which is fine. I know that we're handling the situation properly in all aspects. He does not play with any animals (because he does not play). He is not being pressured into eating (not a stressful environment by any means)... he eats when he wants to eat. He can have food any time he wants. He's getting food that we would have never fed him in a million years as a diet, but the calories and fat is what he needs right now just to survive. I assure you, we are taking care of him just as we were directed to by the vet. We took him to the vet on Monday and he weighed 3 pounds. It's Wednesday now, and I can already tell he weighs considerably more. That is why he's not in intensive care - because he is responding slowly to our feedings. 

He's definitely not in a stressful environment by any means. What we don't want is to throw him INTO a stressful environment at such a young, fragile state.


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## Lucy Dog

Can you post some pictures to see what kind of condition he's in?

If he's really bad as you say he is (3# at 7 or 8 weeks which is deathly thin), I find it very hard to believe the vet didn't keep him there on fluids and for care.

Are you absolutely sure he's really 7 or 8 weeks? Something just doesn't really add up here, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Lucy Dog said:


> Can you post some pictures to see what kind of condition he's in?
> 
> If he's really bad as you say he is (3# at 7 or 8 weeks which is deathly thin), I find it very hard to believe the vet didn't keep him there on fluids and for care.
> 
> Are you absolutely sure he's really 7 or 8 weeks? Something just doesn't really add up here, but maybe I'm wrong.


Sure I'll post pics. It doesn't really do any justice though because his coat is so thick.



















This was just a few weeks earlier... before these pictures above, he used to be a chunky monkey as was the largest in the litter.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Lucy Dog said:


> Can you post some pictures to see what kind of condition he's in?
> 
> If he's really bad as you say he is (3# at 7 or 8 weeks which is deathly thin), I find it very hard to believe the vet didn't keep him there on fluids and for care.
> 
> Are you absolutely sure he's really 7 or 8 weeks? Something just doesn't really add up here, but maybe I'm wrong.


 
Let me also address the age issue. The guy SAID they were born Feb 2nd. Then he changed it to Feb 1st. Now he has another litter that he's saying was born the same day. Then he tried telling us that the puppy was already six weeks when he was only five weeks. When I confronted him about that, that we can count, he played dumb and acted like it was a mistake. Again, we should have stopped here. The morning that we brought up the age thing and then finding out that he had another litter really red flagged us. That morning we were going to back out, but I'm the idiot who comforted my boyfriend and said it's just a mistake and I'm sure the dog will be okay out of all of it which was most important. 

But yes, I do know he's 7 weeks old because we visited the week they were born and every other weekend there after. That's why we are very heartbroken... we picked this puppy from birth and he showed a lot of promise. Every visit with him was great... it just made us increasingly excited and more trusting of these people than I would have been had I never seen the puppy, their house and their family so often.


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## GSDGunner

Wow, yes, you can see he's tiny. But if you already see a difference, then you are on the right track.

I bet once he's adjusted to his new surroundings, gets some weight on him and settles in, he'll be the dog you wanted.
I'd hate to see you give up so quick. You have to realize that he was plucked out of the only home he ever knew and is likely scared. New surroundings, new people, vet visit, and not feeling well to boot.
Give him a chance, at least for a few weeks.


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## Zan

I'm a little curious about his going from the biggest in the litter to the smallest...have you noticed him regurgitatin/vomiting his food after eating? (Thinking possible megaesophagus here...but I sure hope not.)
Hang in there and best of luck with your little guy!


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## GSDElsa

Sure he's even PB? What did the parents look like? Other than Panda shepherds, I'm not sure i've seen white over the entire paw and at the end of the tail like that.


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## Lucy Dog

GSDElsa said:


> Sure he's even PB? What did the parents look like? Other than Panda shepherds, I'm not sure i've seen white over the entire paw and at the end of the tail like that.


While it's not common, I think it does happen with some purebreds, especially at this young of an age.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Zan said:


> I'm a little curious about his going from the biggest in the litter to the smallest...have you noticed him regurgitatin/vomiting his food after eating? (Thinking possible megaesophagus here...but I sure hope not.)
> Hang in there and best of luck with your little guy!


Yes I remember him throwing up once after a feeding. It was mostly water and wet canned food. That was monday night. We were worried that he possibly threw up from the medicine too though, but I think it was long enough after his hookworm medicine for it to absorb.

But that was the only incident with vomiting that I remember. 

Him going from the biggest to the smallest was extremely shocking. My friend adopted the smallest and now he's fat and extremely food aggressive as well. (he's pictured next to our puppy... you can tell the huge difference in their size at that age) Now, next to each other, he's double his size... he's running up and down stairs... etc. Our puppy can barely handle walking still, so it's a VERY curious predicament.

The breeder and I had a fight this morning over text (I'm at work) and I told him we will have a phone discussion this evening. All of this is going to be discussed - I want to know how they let a starving puppy go unnoticed.


----------



## Myamom

I was thinking the same thing GSD Elsa...the paws and tip of tail make me wonder too. Not that it matters...he's absolutely adorable!!! But...in conjunction with his health issues...it may also be a factor in his smaller weight if he has some other breed thrown in there...


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## Sleepyhouse22

GSDElsa said:


> Sure he's even PB? What did the parents look like? Other than Panda shepherds, I'm not sure i've seen white over the entire paw and at the end of the tail like that.


Yes, we actually interacted with the parents numerous times. The male is a big, BEAUTIFUL dog. Absolutely well trained and had great manners. He was the reason why we really fell in love with what this litter had the potential to be.



















^ Dad
V Mom










She is from : http://www.sportwaffenk9.com (From Stuka + Jenny)



He was the only one in the litter with all white feet and the only one with a white tipped tail.


----------



## GSDElsa

The male is from? I'm curious if Nate at Sportwaffen knew about this breeding...I can't imagine he'd be thrilled.

I only ask because a female can get pregnant from 2 different males. So while daddy may be the father of the others, there is always the chance he isn't of your puppy. Not that it is relevant to the thread at all, my curiosity was just piqued when I saw the amount of white on his feet and at the tip of the tail. I'm not sure I've ever seen that in another PB GSD before.

ETA: I sent you a PM.


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## Sleepyhouse22

GSDElsa said:


> The male is from? I'm curious if Nate at Sportwaffen knew about this breeding...I can't imagine he'd be thrilled.
> 
> I only ask because a female can get pregnant from 2 different males. So while daddy may be the father of the others, there is always the chance he isn't of your puppy. Not that it is relevant to the thread at all, my curiosity was just piqued when I saw the amount of white on his feet and at the tip of the tail. I'm not sure I've ever seen that in another PB GSD before.


Honestly, no idea where the male is from... some other breeder he said, but he's not from a place like the female is. The female was actually the one acting weird when we visited... very anxious and running around. My boyfriend found it extremely odd that she did not even greet us nor did she care that we had all of her puppies sprawled out in front of us. She did not mind us one bit (or noticed we were there with her puppies?). 

I assume the white comes from the male. The breeder said his dog was more white at birth and then it all quickly faded into a cream color. You can see on his thighs and parts that there are still parts of more white colors. 

Personally, I love it and didn't think anything of it. Again though, I'm not a german shepherd person. My specialty is in English Bulldogs and so I wouldn't know what's a normal coat or not.


----------



## Debmax

Can anybody tell me how to start a new thread? Can't figure it out....guess I've got a mental block.


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## Myamom

When you go into the correct section that you want to post in...at the top there is a button that says - new thread...top left.


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## Debmax

Thank you. Any suggestions as to what would be the best area to post about rehoming my 2.5 year old Shepherd?


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## Myamom

in the rescue section....non urgent 

(as urgent can only be used for dogs in kill shelters)


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## RebelGSD

I think this puppy is very sick (especially if he is a purebred GSD), 3lbs is not normal.
In this condition it is hard to expect any "normal" behavior from him. 
He should have quiet time in his crate to eat and heal, no other pets around to stress him. I would probably try force-feeding him with mush from a syringe if he is not eating. He may have some physical illness that caused the delay in growth and development. 
I did have an adult foster that looked like a skeleton and would barely eat. I spent hours trying to hand-feed him.
I hope the little guy recovers, he is very cute. He will be a different puppy when he is healthy. And he should be eating whetever he wants and can eat just to get more nutrition into him.


----------



## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> what emoore is saying about the hormones refers to the mind body connection.
> 
> Can you give the dog some body temperature goat milk , full fat , not skim. The fat will help brain development , the temperature will make it more comfortable to consume and easier to digest. Goat milk is very easy to digest . The protein molecule of goat milk is smaller so easier to break down.
> 
> Can you whisk an egg yolk into this .
> 
> Add kefir , cultured milk , if it is available in your area .
> If not go to the dairy case at your grocery and get some Bio K About Probiotics | Bio-K+
> 
> Without minerals enzymes don't work . Can you get encapsulated spirulina or dulse and add that to the food. Very good for the immune system. - Spirulina For Nutrition
> 
> If not head to the health food store and get Concen Trace ConcenTrace® Trace Mineral Drops - Trace Minerals Research
> 
> We can't know how compromised this little pup is all you can do is to do your best.
> 
> hope this is helpful
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



I agree - this pup needs nourishing easily digestible food and liquids - he may be dehydrated as well as starving....3 pounds is the weight of 2 to 3 week old pup, not a 7 or 8 week old - those should be 12-14 pounds!!

Goats milk is as close as you can get to mothers milk for dogs...I raise my pups on it...

hope he makes it....

Lee


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## wolfstraum

white toes and tail tips not unknown in GSDs, esp in showlines - sire looks showlines 

Lee


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## vat

He is a little cutie, I do hope you can get him healthy. I think once that is done he will be a whole new pup!


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## DharmasMom

Oh mercy, he is a cutie!! Hope he is doing better this evening. Has he started to pass any of the worms yet?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I know you think he's improving, but please get a weight on him frequently - and chart it - if he is still not interested in food, he is still on the edge and again, puppies crash quickly. One little URI, additional worms (because different ones come in at different times) and he won't make it. I would be in close contact with a good vet about this.


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## Wolfgeist

My concern is actually that this puppy may be physically ill. Have you taken him to the vet to check for heart worm, worms or any other parasites that could be making him weak/painful/unhappy? I highly recommend taking him to the vet, because there seems to be something very wrong with this poor love.

I apologize if you already ruled this out. It is late, I did not read through every single page but I wanted to respond.

I also think you should seek a reputable rescue organization if you choose to rehome.


----------



## onyx'girl

GSDElsa said:


> Sure he's even PB? What did the parents look like? Other than Panda shepherds, I'm not sure i've seen white over the entire paw and at the end of the tail like that.


Onyx's mother carried the white spotting gene, and her 2nd litter had a pup that looked just like that one. Onyx also has white on her paws and the tip of her tail, it has never faded with age. Not sure the lineage...Am pet lines I assume.


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## krystyne73

My Great Dane was really vicious by 3 mon old and I adopted him, tamed him down because at first he wouldn't allow anyone to even pet him, his previous owners were terrified of a 12wk old (with good reason).
My Sasha was practically feral when I got her and it took me almost a year but I have made huge progress with her.
You have to be willing to put your heart and soul into your dog. Get him healthy and then work on his behavior.
I am only 2.5-3 hrs from you. I go to Dallas often if you need help or need to rehome him. 
I think if you get him medical treatment and proper nutrition he will balance out but he is picking up guarded resource habits that need addressed soon. I will bet once you have fixed the medical issues and worked on him, he will become a great pup!


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## Sleepyhouse22

The puppy is definitely doing better. He weighs about 5 pounds now, and is much more alert and playful - he actually started panting for the first time yesterday and I think that's a good sign. Despite his progress, I wanted to ask if anyone might know why he's having so much trouble getting his hind legs under him when trying to stand up? I'm hoping it's just a matter of building more muscle tissue and not actually a hip or nerve problem. His hind legs also still get tripped up when walking sometimes and he'll take a tumble. I know it's still very early in his rehab process but I just really hope he doesn't have something seriously wrong with his rear end. We're going to plan on making another visit to the vet this weekend for another checkup since he still hasn't passed the worms(he got medicine for the worms on Monday). Thanks for all the help and support.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm so sorry your poor puppy is going thru this but glad he is doing better

As for the rear leg weakness, it could be something of what you stated, could be just a clumsy puppy. I would keep tabs on that, maybe start a journal write down how he progresses/digresses daily for future vet reference


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## Tihannah

He is so tiny! I don't know if I've ever seen a GSD pup at 7wks that small. Poor baby! I can't believe this breeder would knowingly sell you a pup in this condition and then get upset because you question them about it. I'm not as experienced as others on here, but I agree that you may see a different pup with a lot of love and training and getting him back healthy.


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## Myamom

I going to guess that the hindend weakness is due to his weakness./low body weight/malnuitrition Panting is often a sign of distress, pain or stress. When is he doing this? In his condition...I'm thinking it's not due to rigorous exercise.


----------



## PaddyD

If he still has diarrhea I hope you are adding rice to his food to slow down the digestion process so that he can get more out of the food and not lose valuable fluids.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I and others I know, do not give a sick puppy rice - they can go very quickly from diarrhea to an obstruction. A little fresh pumpkin or sweet potato - just a very little - but of course talking to a vet would be what to do before adding or taking away anything. 



> I going to guess that the hindend weakness is due to his weakness./low body weight/malnuitrition Panting is often a sign of distress, pain or stress. When is he doing this? In his condition...I'm thinking it's not due to rigorous exercise.


I agree completely with this.


----------



## PaddyD

Worked for my puppy's diarrhea and was recommended by the vet. Just give a little with the food, you don't stuff them with it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's fine, but I wouldn't do it. Especially with a puppy like this. I just wanted to point out that there are people who do not feel that this is safe to do for a puppy. I would rather treat the cause of the diarrhea and go without the rice until they are older. Of course, you are right in that if this puppy is still having diarrhea, that is something that needs to be addressed quickly and well.


----------



## Jax08

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> I wanted to ask if anyone might know why he's having so much trouble getting his hind legs under him when trying to stand up?


We bought our youngest boxer from a BYB at 9 weeks. She weighed 4 lbs, severely emaciated, worms, covered in scabs from the other puppies biting her. Pretty similar to your situation.

DH took her out to potty, came back in holding her in a complete panic screaming she was dead. He said she just fell over unconscious but he was holding a completely awake puppy when he got to me.

I would say that he is weak and has no muscle. I would let him play but also try to monitor and restrict the amount of time he's playing. It's a double edged sword. He needs to play to build muscle but he can't overdo it.


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## Jax08

Just curious...have you emailed the mother's breeder yet? I agree with Myamom that he wouldn't be to happy about all this (just from reading his website). I would at least call to see if the dogs are on limited registration (is your puppy eligible to have AKC papers? If not, then the mother probably has a limited registration).


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## Sleepyhouse22

We haven't contacted him yet because I was giving the breeder a chance to talk to us last night. I told him to call because there are a few things I wanted to discuss with him and where his female came from was one of them. If he doesn't contact me again today to hash this out, then I definitely am going to contact his female's breeder for information. Our puppy has AKC papers though, so that's always good. 

We got goats milk last night, and he absolutely loves it. What I'm worried about is him getting so much liquid and nothing solid to stiffen his poop. He's had diarreah for nearly a week now. Who truly knows how long he's had diarrhea in the breeder's care. This morning he just had creamier diarrhea 

I'm pouring it over kibble now and he seems to be loving that so it's just as well. I put it in his crate and he comfortably ate in there for the first time. 

As for the hind legs situation (our entire house is wooden floor except the kitchen), this morning he was crying in the bedroom because he could not stand up. This hasn't happened in any other location in the house because the bedroom has the slickest floors, but it was concerning to see. We're going to get some rugs for him to be able to stand up more easily. 

And the panting happened after he was playing. He is consistently playing more and more for longer periods of time. At the time of panting he had been playing for probably five minutes. Of course his playing is mainly laying on his back with his mouth as wide open as he can get it, but he's trying.  


A journal/chart is a great idea for his progress and weight. Getting on that.


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## GSDGunner

Sounds like you're on the right track. My first thought regarding the back legs was from his size and malnourishment. I'm sure once he's gotten a little more muscle in that area, this too will improve.
Throw rugs are an excellent idea too.

You haven't mentioned the aggressive behavior in the last few posts and I'm assuming this is getting better as well?
And have you come to a decision on keeping him? I hope you can see that this pup will likely thrive once feeling better and with training will make an excellent loving addition to your home.


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## RebelGSD

I used pumpkin successfully with dogs with diarrhea, prefer it over rice. You could mix it into the milk and turn it into mush. Most of them like the pumpkin.
You can also soak the kibble in the milk to make it into a soup or mush (crush the kibble into mush, it is easier to digest), I found they like it when i warm it up a little (it smells better).

The rear leg weakness is probably from the overall muscle weakness. He is probably not strong enough to hold his own weight, especially if he gained 2lbs in 3 days.

Sounds like he is a little fighter, sending you positive thoughts.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

I'm wondering if these horrible BYBs were resentful of the fact that you wanted them to keep your puppy until at least 7 weeks and simply didn't feed him properly or at all. They could've relied on the mother to feed the pup and if she was weaning him, that wouldn't happen. You mentioned that your friend's puppy is doing well... did your friend take the pup home at 4.5 weeks?


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## Sleepyhouse22

GSDGunner said:


> You haven't mentioned the aggressive behavior in the last few posts and I'm assuming this is getting better as well?
> And have you come to a decision on keeping him? I hope you can see that this pup will likely thrive once feeling better and with training will make an excellent loving addition to your home.


We took notice of that last night too and discussed it... we put him through the same situations which instigated it to begin with and he showed no aggressiveness. We're going to monitor it and keep testing him over the next couple of weeks, but I think he's going to be okay in this area. 

I know many of you thought our animals were stressing him out, but they're not... they're very laid back and like to cuddle. The cats like to stay near him and watch him and he tries to play with them. Anyway, last night we got worried because the cats were pretty close to him while he was eating this canned food we got (which they love, so they were VERY interested). They were sniffing his bowl while he was eating and he paid them no mind at all. They simply walked away after done sniffing and all was great. THAT was a great sign... then we tested him with his toy aggression and he loved playing... the last thing will be to see how he acts around his litter mate again... somebody his size.

Of course all of it will be monitored for awhile though. If after he's healthy and it reappears, we just can't keep him.



RebelGSD said:


> I used pumpkin successfully with dogs with diarrhea, prefer it over rice. You could mix it into the milk and turn it into mush. Most of them like the pumpkin.


Canned pumpkin? I'm willing to feed him anything at this point if he really likes it. 



Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I'm wondering if these horrible BYBs were resentful of the fact that you wanted them to keep your puppy until at least 7 weeks and simply didn't feed him properly or at all. They could've relied on the mother to feed the pup and if she was weaning him, that wouldn't happen. You mentioned that your friend's puppy is doing well... did your friend take the pup home at 4.5 weeks?


They did seem peeved that we didn't trust them in taking the dog home so soon. We called them out on quite a few things including time with the mother. Even though we knew he was no longer in contact with the mom, they have a ton of dogs, and he said they let them out together at least three times a day. Thought if the mom didn't teach anything, the pack of dogs would. (Thankfully, he does seem very well socialized.)

My friend took hers home just a few days before us. He's already running up and down stairs and very active. He was running before we even got our puppy... they're just so incredibly different, it's shocking. How did the breeder not notice?  Our puppy was the first to crawl, first to hear, first to do everything... how could you not know something is wrong when he quickly becomes the smallest, least developed of the litter?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think I've said it - but I would leave the puppy alone and *stop testing him* - just work on getting him healthy. You won't have to worry about his behavior if he doesn't stop with the diarrhea, etc. 

When a puppy is that sick, your focus needs to be on keeping him quiet, stress free, and eating many small meals throughout the day, etc.


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## carmspack

hi and good morning , further on diarrhea -- get yourself some slippery elm at the health food store. This is a powder like a cornstarch consistency. Unlike boiled rice which has no nutritive value and acts as a bulking agent or mechanical block , slippery elm is highly nutritive and takes up little space . That is an important distinction because your pup needs to eat to get the calories , proteins and fats to get on the mend. The rice would fill him so he would not eat what he needed.
Slippery elm is a soothing mucilage , a gel . 
Diarrhea in Dogs | Treating Canine Diarrhea

The wobbly weakness is probably because he has been malnourished and has had diarrhea . An accumulative effect of the lack of nourishment and the diarrhea would be a depletion of all important electrolytes . The body is flushing out electrolytes before they can be absorbed. 
Offer the dog some pedialyte instead of water . No sports drinks which are top heavy with sugar which increases urine output .
The goats milk will go a long way. The main electrolytes you need to replenish are calcium , potassium and sodium. 
If you can get a small bottle of virgin coconut oil - Tropical Traditions Gold Label is what I use in my oil supplement. Highest lauric acid content - a component of mother's milk. Coconut oil is an anti microbial and anti diarrheal !! A tiny bit in the warmed goat milk will give him energy and help digestion. 
Some dogs like bananas -- great for potassium -- just a slice maybe take a slice or two and put it through the blender with some goat milk and probiotic yogurt so that it is like a milk shake - put a pinch of slippery elm in there and offer in a separate bowl for the animal to take at will.
The electrolyte imbalance will affect his heart rate, nerve and muscle reaction.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Sleepyhouse22

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think I've said it - but I would leave the puppy alone and *stop testing him* - just work on getting him healthy. You won't have to worry about his behavior if he doesn't stop with the diarrhea, etc.
> 
> When a puppy is that sick, your focus needs to be on keeping him quiet, stress free, and eating many small meals throughout the day, etc.


Jean, the 'tests' are not strenuous tests. They're every day experiences. A test of sticking my hand in/near his bowl is not a stressful test. It's what's going to happen no matter what because he's tiny and can't get all the wet food off the bowl. We are not there adding any extra stress or provoking him.


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## RebelGSD

Yes, canned. You can also bake some fresh pumpkin and mush it (and eat the leftovers, it smells great).
I also mix some fish into the pumpkin for protein and gradulaly increase the amount of fish.

The breeders probably just left him in the kennel and they did not notice because they did not spend time with the puppies. They wanted them gone as soon as they were weaned. It sounds like negligence.

Other, new animals near, especially near the food, is stress for a sick puppy that underwent a big transition, period. They don't have to initiate stressful interactions to pose stress. Think of yourself in this situation, you are too sick and weak to stand, have constant diarrhea, you are probably in pain, and people keep bringing new people to you to evaluate your personality. Would you consider it fair.
Also, if he has a bug, you may not want the other animals to get it.


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## Sleepyhouse22

carmspack said:


> hi and good morning , further on diarrhea -- get yourself some slippery elm at the health food store. This is a powder like a cornstarch consistency. Unlike boiled rice which has no nutritive value and acts as a bulking agent or mechanical block , slippery elm is highly nutritive and takes up little space . That is an important distinction because your pup needs to eat to get the calories , proteins and fats to get on the mend. The rice would fill him so he would not eat what he needed.
> Slippery elm is a soothing mucilage , a gel .
> Diarrhea in Dogs | Treating Canine Diarrhea
> 
> The wobbly weakness is probably because he has been malnourished and has had diarrhea . An accumulative effect of the lack of nourishment and the diarrhea would be a depletion of all important electrolytes . The body is flushing out electrolytes before they can be absorbed.
> Offer the dog some pedialyte instead of water . No sports drinks which are top heavy with sugar which increases urine output .
> The goats milk will go a long way. The main electrolytes you need to replenish are calcium , potassium and sodium.
> If you can get a small bottle of virgin coconut oil - Tropical Traditions Gold Label is what I use in my oil supplement. Highest lauric acid content - a component of mother's milk. Coconut oil is an anti microbial and anti diarrheal !! A tiny bit in the warmed goat milk will give him energy and help digestion.
> Some dogs like bananas -- great for potassium -- just a slice maybe take a slice or two and put it through the blender with some goat milk and probiotic yogurt so that it is like a milk shake - put a pinch of slippery elm in there and offer in a separate bowl for the animal to take at will.
> The electrolyte imbalance will affect his heart rate, nerve and muscle reaction.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
Great, thank you! We will definitely try these things.


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## carmspack

chances are that with the bulk of the puppies gone at a criminally early age the mother's milk was drying out . If the mother was poorly fed the milk would have not been as nutritive either. She is paying for it also . If the mother's nutrition is sub par it is taxing on her. Quite the situation - but as we get to see not unique.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Sleepyhouse22

RebelGSD said:


> Other, new animals near, especially near the food, is stress for a sick puppy that underwent a big transition, period. They don't have to initiate stressful interactions to pose stress. Think of yourself in this situation, you are too sick and weak to stand, have constant diarrhea, you are probably in pain, and people keep bringing new people to you to evaluate your personality. Would you consider it fair.
> Also, if he has a bug, you may not want the other animals to get it.


Understood, thanks for the suggestions.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Note the canned pumpkin is not the same that is used for pie mixes. It is pure pumpkin.


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## Lilie

I apologize but haven't had time to go through every page of this thread, but I can't help but notice that you are feeding your pup all sorts of different things (raw, canned etc). Changing your pups food can have adverse reactions on it's digestive system.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Lilie and please go with what Carm has suggested. Slippery elm is something we all should have on hand.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Lilie said:


> I apologize but haven't had time to go through every page of this thread, but I can't help but notice that you are feeding your pup all sorts of different things (raw, canned etc). Changing your pups food can have adverse reactions on it's digestive system.


That's exactly why we didn't want to do this, but the vet said it was vital to throw away all ideas of getting him on the food we wanted and feed him whatever he'll take.


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## Zan

I just wanted to jump in here with some words of encouragement. You're getting a lot of advice (some conflicting) but it sounds like you're doing what works for you and working hard to get your pup healthy. Our pup was only 5 lbs when we got her at 7 weeks - she had megaesophagus and wasn't keeping enough food down, also had roundworms and coccidia. 6 months later she's a healthy, happy 52 lbs. and great fun (though still a lot of work!)
Anyway, hang in there and good luck with your pup! More pictures whenever you can get them would be great too....


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## idahospud49

I second Zan. While there has been some GREAT advice given here, you are the one who is there dealing with it all. Part of raising a puppy (and kids) is doing what feels right. And definitely post more pictures when you get the chance!


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## Myamom

Find something he likes and stick with that. You can't keep switching around or you will never get rid of the diarrhea.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Myamom said:


> Find something he likes and stick with that. You can't keep switching around or you will never get rid of the diarrhea.


It's a little harder than that. He shows interest in kibble + water, then he doesn't. He showed interest in the canned wet food from the vet and then didn't. Then with the chunky food and gravy and didn't... 

Chicken, steak, etc he likes that all just fine, but we don't want him on a raw diet or any other kind of random food that he's getting right now. 

We want him only on the food we bought for him. Right now we're making exceptions to put on weight so he can get healthy and be able to walk... 

The goats milk in the kibble we bought is the best thing going right now.


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## Cassidy's Mom

carmspack said:


> If you can get a small bottle of virgin coconut oil - Tropical Traditions Gold Label is what I use in my oil supplement. Highest lauric acid content - a component of mother's milk. Coconut oil is an anti microbial and anti diarrheal !! A tiny bit in the warmed goat milk will give him energy and help digestion.


I agree, coconut oil is a good source of calories and an excellent fat source too, due to its medium-chain triglycerides: Medium-chain triglycerides - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MCTs are very highly digestible, making coconut oil ideal for a dog who cannot handle fats well. It also tastes good, most dogs love it. You should be able to find organic virgin coconut oil at any health food store and most supermarkets.


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## Myamom

Whenever I have a sick dog...I never bothered with kibble...it just doesn't usually appeal when they are sick. I don't care what I want them to eat when they are healthy....I just care that they are eating NOW. I am currently hospice fostering...and whenever she's going through a bad time..she has no interest in her dog food....so I made a homemade chicken soup...basically tons of chicken with a little broth and some carrots and rice...and it gets her eating again. (not saying this is what you should feed as people above said rice really isn't a good idea right now)...but you get the idea. Don't worry about what you want him to eat someday....worry about getting him to eat now...whatever is appealing to him..is what he should be eating. But I would find that particular thing and stick with it. As I said...if you don't...you will never stop the diarrhea.


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## Myamom

The reason we suggested contacting the mother's breeder is not for your informational purposes...but for his...so that he knows what is being done with his dog....which he won't be happy with. I know I would let him know.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Myamom said:


> The reason we suggested contacting the mother's breeder is not for your informational purposes...but for his...so that he knows what is being done with his dog....which he won't be happy with. I know I would let him know.


I know, but I needed to ask the owner if his female is truly from the two dogs he said first. It was brought to my attention that she does not have the same coat as either the mom or dad that I was told. I wanted to confirm this before contacting sportwaffen but wasn't able to last night. I am still going to contact him, but I wanted my stuff straight before I did.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Myamom said:


> Whenever I have a sick dog...I never bothered with kibble...it just doesn't usually appeal when they are sick. I don't care what I want them to eat when they are healthy....I just care that they are eating NOW. I am currently hospice fostering...and whenever she's going through a bad time..she has no interest in her dog food....so I made a homemade chicken soup...basically tons of chicken with a little broth and some carrots and rice...and it gets her eating again. (not saying this is what you should feed as people above said rice really isn't a good idea right now)...but you get the idea. Don't worry about what you want him to eat someday....worry about getting him to eat now...whatever is appealing to him..is what he should be eating. But I would find that particular thing and stick with it. As I said...if you don't...you will never stop the diarrhea.


I think chicken will work the best. I hope he doesn't think it's always going to be straight off the grill  It's just what we had that night. Chicken it is.

I worry about getting him all of the other things too... You guys have suggested a lot of different things and it just sounds like too much.


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## Myamom

Shouldn't this info be on your AKC papers?


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## Sleepyhouse22

Myamom said:


> Shouldn't this info be on your AKC papers?


We have yet to submit the papers. We have the form to and all of that, but right now it's just numbers and no information. He showed us her papers, but for the life of me, I can't be certain those were the correct parents.


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## Chris Wild

Boiled chicken and rice is a very tried and true, and usually very well recieved in terms of palatability, diet for dogs with digestive issues. And well balanced nutritionally for short term use. Definitely worth a try.

If more calories are needed, the goat's milk that he has already shown he likes can be added to the mixture, as can chicken broth, or both. Adding a bit of raw egg, plain yogurt and even a touch of karo syrup can increase caloric intake and palatabilty too. The plain yogurt can also help ease the digestive upset by replenishing good intestinal bacteria.


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## Myamom

I'm looking at Mya's AKC Reg. application (as we never bothered sending it in)...and it has the name of the sire and his number..and name of the dam and her number.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Myamom said:


> I'm looking at Mya's AKC Reg. application (as we never bothered sending it in)...and it has the name of the sire and his number..and name of the dam and her number.


Hmm, I'll look it over. I didn't take a look since we got it, but I could have sworn we were surprised it was just numbers. I'll look when I get home.


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## Jax08

If I were you, I would send in her AKC paperwork immediately. That is a way of establishing ownership.

I think two sables can produce a black and tan (as the mother is). But to produce sables, at least one parent has to be sable.

Chris - as sick as this puppy is, should he be on a probiotic? Yogurt generally doesn't have enough cultures to replenish a sick system. It can help keep a system that is balanced in balance.

OP- the best yogurt I've found is Stonyfield. Just make sure it ISN"T fat free. I have a hard time finding yogurt that has fat in grocery stores.


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## carmspack

yes , in order for calcium to be metabolized it should have fat as a cofactor , and no sweetners , no splenda or sucralose.

PLAIN FULL FAT .

people eat fat free yogurt for calcium but don't get the benefits (as much) -- one of the reasons babies need full fat milk - that and brain development .

Carmen


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## Jax08

I did not know that Carmen. I was just thinking of empty calories without the fat for the puppy. Thanks!


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## Sleepyhouse22

Jax08 said:


> If I were you, I would send in her AKC paperwork immediately. That is a way of establishing ownership.
> 
> I think two sables can produce a black and tan (as the mother is). But to produce sables, at least one parent has to be sable.
> 
> Chris - as sick as this puppy is, should he be on a probiotic? Yogurt generally doesn't have enough cultures to replenish a sick system. It can help keep a system that is balanced in balance.
> 
> OP- the best yogurt I've found is Stonyfield. Just make sure it ISN"T fat free. I have a hard time finding yogurt that has fat in grocery stores.


Thanks. I feel that we haven't because of all the stress of the puppy right now. I'll get on top of it tonight though.

Stonyfield... where do you find this at typically, as in which grocery store? I was shocked that Tom Thumb doesn't carry Goat's Milk but Kroger's did.


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## Jax08

Yes, at a grocery store. But I've only found one store that sold anything other than fat free. Stonyfield is organic and has lots of different cultures in it.


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## Myamom

I don't know where you are...but if you have a Wegman's...we use Wegman's brand organic pre and probiotic super yogurt (found in health section)
It has 1.91 billion live and active probiotic cultures, Inulin which is a prebiotic, Omega 3's (43 mg of EPA and DHA) and Vit. D


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## Sleepyhouse22

Notice how crippled his legs look, if you can get past his cuteness.


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## carmspack

looks like you are a very caring owner and the pup does look brighter -- it will take some time 
remember that this pup has a lot of catching up to do over and above normal growth.

growth hormones tend to be most active in rest and sleep , this is why ill and wounded and babies in growth periods nap and sleep so much.

many people plan for activity but don't provide quiet time and rest.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jax08

I don't see anything out of the ordinary with his back legs in the picture. Can you take a picture of him standing? Did you discuss this with your vet? I wonder if his bones have some catching up to do if he's been deprived of nutrients?

He is a cutie..but he sure doesn't look like he's 9 weeks old. Looks more like 4 weeks.


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## Zan

He is adorable. Hard to tell but his hind legs do look a little small in the 2nd pic especially. Carmen is absolutely right, plenty of rest is essential for him to grow and catch up. I noticed that sometimes with Neko, when she was running around like a wild thing and getting into trouble, she just needed a nap (much like a human baby!)

Here is a pic of Neko at 8 weeks for comparison:


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## Sleepyhouse22

Only picture I have of him standing up right now. He was wanting to lay down so much.

But you can kind of see... his legs stay kind of bent and he doesn't walk normal by any means. He gnawls at them as if they might be in pain... that's not a constant thing, but we've just noticed that he keeps going to them as if something is wrong.


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## GSDGunner

I'm no expert but that doesn't look normal.
Have you gotten him back to the vet yet?

Oh and OMG...he is adorable! :wub:


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## Emoore

Myamom said:


> I don't know where you are...but if you have a Wegman's...we use Wegman's brand organic pre and probiotic super yogurt (found in health section)
> It has 1.91 billion live and active probiotic cultures, Inulin which is a prebiotic, Omega 3's (43 mg of EPA and DHA) and Vit. D


We don't have Wegman's in Dallas. I've noticed Stonyfield that wasn't fat free at SuperTarget though.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Emoore said:


> We don't have Wegman's in Dallas. I've noticed Stonyfield that wasn't fat free at SuperTarget though.


Great, thank you.


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## vat

He is looking better for sure and you are doing a great job. But I would have the vet advise on the back legs.


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## Jax08

I would call a vet about his legs. It's one thing if he's still weak, it's another if he's showing pain. I would want them to look at him.

We don't have a decent store brand yogurt here but maybe compare the live cultures in Stonyfield to the live cultures in your store brand there. Stonyfield is pricey but it does seem to be the best available here.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Hey all, thanks for the advice on the yogurt. He loves it and had about half a cup before he passed out just now. Found Stonyfield whole milk plain at Kroger's by chance this morning. It's a pretty massive container so I do hope it doesn't spoil quickly.

He's going into the vet tomorrow or Monday. He discovered a bag of Royal Canin Bulldog formula and has been chowing down on it more than the Taste of the Wild brand we were transitioning both dogs to. Whatever he will eat is fine by me  It's making his poop a bit thicker, but he still has diarrhea (over a week now, though he did have a couple harder stools after the worm medication). 

At the vet we're going to review:

Weight - still only 5 pounds
Legs
Hips
Worms
Fecal Exam
Diarrhea

He's shown aggression over his food only once since Monday, so that's a good sign. We actually thought it was gone completely and disappointed that it hasn't.

But it does seem like all is on the right track. I'll keep you all posted after the vet visit. My gut feeling is something is severely wrong with his backside. Is there any kind of steroid treatment for dogs for that kind of growth, or would that increase anxiety/moodiness/aggression?


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## vat

That is great that he is eating better. Do not be disappointed about the aggression I think you are expecting to much from him right now. Since he has shown signs of becoming less aggressive that is great! I think as he feels better you will see less and less of it.

Will be looking for how the vet visit goes, good luck and give that lil pup a hug from me.


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## Jax08

Taste of the Wild has to high calcium for a puppy. Not sure what to feed a puppy in the condition yours is in though.


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## JakodaCD OA

he looks much better than the first pics very cute little guy..the legs? no answer there, please let us know what the vet thinks and good luck!


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## carmspack

I think you are such a good person for doing what you have done. I don't want to scare you or depress you when I give you this information , but I think it is important to make sure that your vet considers it . Ataxia. Symptoms, drunken walk , head titlting, lack of coordination. Could be caused by brain deficiency in a particular area. Here is a link 



Notice in this particular view the dog with the problem is smaller than his littermates.
There is a cue of videos with ataxic pups and dogs of all ages and breeds. 
Google puppy ataxia for pages and pages.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## shaner

So have you decided to keep the puppy? Sorry, I didn't read through all the threads. I figured there was nothing I could add to this thread that other people haven't already.


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## Rylee

This may not help but I hope it gives some insight...I did get Rylee at 4 1/2 wks., she showed signs of aggression already then..fighting with litter etc but I just had 5 stitches in back of leg bc a nail ripped through my skin. Also, if I play with my hands with her she has broken the skin several times. Rylee has been in training since 5 wks and the difference is incredible! Please try to work with her and a trainer (alone with you, her/him, and a trainer) This pup is young and can still learn what is acceptable and what is not. IM me and I can share a story from the vet when Rylee acted aggressive. I took thumb and first finger and shook lightly on back to get her attention and a no...very firm and she got it. Hard love...the dog needs and deserves this in order to be what you want... I am sorry for your situation and am here if you need to vent


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## Rylee

I just read all of the post! WOW.. everyone is so helpful! I do hope you keep the pup... what an adorable little booger! I think it was truly the situation with the aggression. I wish I knew what to tell you about the back legs but I have no clue... I will def be looking for more updates! Hope all is well and again pm me if you need anything!


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## GSDElsa

*Reply From Sportwaffen: Extremely Aggressive Puppy*

*Post moved here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/154899-byb-how-report-them-4.html#post2085948
*


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## Sleepyhouse22

Hey all, thank you for the support. The puppy is doing great. He is running around, fromping like an actual puppy now. It's night and day. He also shows signs of being quite smart... my boyfriend taught him how to sit yesterday through clicker training very easily.

We went to the vet, and she said that the puppy passed all the worms, but still has coccidia. We got a new medication for that, and we're continuing the yogurt, but not the goat's milk (she said it could be upsetting his stomach). She said that his hind legs are definitely not normal and monitored his walking and running (oh yeah, he is trotting and hopping and all now  ). She didn't note what could be the cause, but that we will need to keep an eye on it. It could just be that he needs to develop muscle there after being malnourished and will be fine, but that's not a certainty.

As of eight weeks he's still just under 5 pounds.

Now onto whether we are going to be keeping him... unfortunately, I do not think we will be keeping him. There are too many things wrong in this situation for our household. The aggression has subsided exponentially as far as we've seen... he's only shown food aggression since, and I've been working with him on it since he's now rambunctious and alert to what we're doing. Still, we worry about the aggression primarily because of our cats. On top of that, we worry about his hind legs and his health overall. We don't have the monetary means to take care of him and get him the treatment he will need IF his legs don't develop properly.

Overall, we've just had an awful experience. It is certainly not the puppy's fault. I do just want to reitterate that he is an amazing puppy... absolutely the cutest, sweetest puppy I've ever met, but my gut tells me that this is not the right puppy for our household or our means. I'd hate to keep him and not be able to treat his legs if it becomes a serious problem, even though it may never come to that. I'd also hate to keep him and have to give him up later on when somebody else could have enjoyed his great puppy stage all along. I truly resent when people keep a puppy and turn him over as an adult knowing all along they weren't a perfect match or not going to keep him for the long term. I also feel like this is a vital time for his learning development and should be with somebody well suited for this who will be with him for the long term.

I do want to find somebody knowledgable to adopt this pup from us. I am going to be looking here for somebody competent or Man's Best Friend locally because they've been good to us, and I would know he's getting the proper training he needs. He's not going to go to just anybody, obviously we will be doing a background check, and we will want to see the new household and conditions under which he'd be living. My boyfriend is being very stern about this because this is the hardest thing we've gone through, having nursed this little guy back to health.

Like many of you said, this was a great learning experience starting from which breeder you choose. We are going to take a break after this puppy to recover mentally and emotionally.

Anybody willing to contact me about adoption, please do.


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## carmspack

wishing you all the best and good luck,


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## Sleepyhouse22

carmspack said:


> wishing you all the best and good luck,


Thank you Carmspack, your knowledge has been incredibly helpful.


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## GSDGunner

I can't help but feel disappointed but you have to do what you feel is right.
Hopefully you can find someone who can get the puppy the proper treatment for his legs if need be.

I also can't help but feel that maybe you shouldn't own a GSD if you can't afford to treat it.
These dogs can develop stomach issues, hip and joint problems etc.
If you're not able to treat these issues in the future, should they arise, then I suggest you don't get one.

I'm sorry if that sounds judgmental, and I don't mean it to be but giving up on a puppy just because his back legs might be a problem is heartbreaking to me.

Good luck and I hope you find the puppy a great loving home.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Linda ^^( But hopefully you will find a loving home for him sooner vs later. Also contact GSD Rescue in your area, they will be a huge help I'm sure they have adopters lined up looking for a puppy


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## carmspack

I don't agree with gsdrunner one bit. At no time was the pup abandoned, denied treatment or tossed aside as some defective thing. The OP has recognized their limitations and rather than short change the dog the care it needs they are , with consideration, and screening , rehoming the dog to someone who will receive the dog fully knowledgeable of the situation , so with informed consent, agreeing to take on whatever difficulties there may be , now and in the future.

I think the OP would be fine owners . They exposed themselves and made themselves vulnerable on this forum. They heeded advice . The situation is far beyond them.

GSD should not be synonymous with major medical problems.

I just don't get it.

Not my experience EVER .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

If you are up for a long road trip...let me know - I would approach local rescue to see if anyone could take. This is NY - so a very long road trip.


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## Sleepyhouse22

Well, it's much like the social choices we deal with today on whether a parent should have a baby knowing full well that they're going to have a disability that is going to cost them. They got pregnant, they gambled at the risk... but know they can't provide for the baby in the fullest. Now, I did not abort the puppy  I did take care of him, and he is healthy now. 

From all that I have read, German Shepherds are supposed to be very healthy dogs. I have an English Bulldog so I know all about health problems in dogs. He's been my best friend for a long time now, and I would provide for him if he developed problems, but he's probably the most healthy bulldog you'd ever lay eyes on.










And we would be fully committed if a dog that we loved and had for a long time did develop health problems. However, this dog came to us with health problems. It's an entirely different situation.


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## gsdraven

Sleepyhouse22 said:


> I did take care of him, and he is healthy now.


I'm sorry but he is not healthy now. He did not go from dying to healthy in a week's time. He still needs care and nurturing. Yes, he is on the mend and making improvements but he is not healthy.


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## Sleepyhouse22

gsdraven said:


> I'm sorry but he is not healthy now. He did not go from dying to healthy in a week's time. He still needs care and nurturing. Yes, he is on the mend and making improvements but he is not healthy.


Yes, he is taking medicine. But, you'd be shocked from when we got him to today. 

I'm not here to bicker. I have been honest from the start about our intentions. The puppy is not being put down - he is finding a better suited home.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

I forgot where you're located again? I might have a few rescue contacts that would be a really good place for this puppy to look for a new start.


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## Sleepyhouse22

We're in Dallas, TX. 

Thanks,


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## GSDGunner

carmspack said:


> I don't agree with gsdrunner one bit. At no time was the pup abandoned, denied treatment or tossed aside as some defective thing. The OP has recognized their limitations and rather than short change the dog the care it needs they are , with consideration, and screening , rehoming the dog to someone who will receive the dog fully knowledgeable of the situation , so with informed consent, agreeing to take on whatever difficulties there may be , now and in the future.
> 
> I think the OP would be fine owners . They exposed themselves and made themselves vulnerable on this forum. They heeded advice . The situation is far beyond them.
> 
> GSD should not be synonymous with major medical problems.
> 
> I just don't get it.
> 
> Not my experience EVER .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



I didn't say they neglected the pup nor did I insinuate it. I said I was disappointed and it was heartbreaking that they were giving him up. Especially since they don't have a definite answer on his legs.

Look in the health section and you'll see tons of problems with our pups.
One person I know has spent over $3000 in one shot for a surgery for HD. And they still have more to do. Another friend just put their GSD down after spending nearly $4000 on her. She was TWO!
You're right GSD's should not be synonymous with major medical problems, but sadly they are and it's something a potential owner should be aware of.
I also never insinuated they would not be good owners. I'm sure they'd be great owners with the right dog. But if there's financial reasons that they are not keeping this pup, then they need to be prepared in the event the next one also has some type of health issues.


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## vat

To the OP, thank you for taking such good care of this pup. I do understand your situation. You do not have a good breeder to fall back on and it sounds like you only want what is best for this pup.

I do not believe that the GSD breed is riddled with health issues. Yes they have problems but not all of them. Look for a good breeder that has produced healthy pups on a consistent basis. Good luck.


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## GSDElsa

I feel like this thread and the "reporting a BYB" thread need to be merged and made a sticky. This is the type of thread I wish people would read BEFORE they go out and buy a dog....


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## Zoeys mom

I think you are being responsible by saying you may not be able to provide this pup with all he needs....thats selfless not selfish It's one thing to treat minor illnesses here and there and deal with old age...thats just inevitable; but knowing you may need to spend thousands on a dog and not know he will be okay despite your effort makes fr a tough decision. First off your average person doesn't have random thousands to drop on their dog and even then money runs out fast. This dog is too young and may require lifelong care out of the realm of the expected. Do you continue to bond and love a dog you may fail latter financially or give this puppy a home with someone able to provide him what he needs? The right thing to do is give him the best home possible and if your home is not it being honest now will save everyone heartache latter.....not sure why some abhor honesty. 

I hope he's just weak and needs a few months to gain muscle mass, I am certain he isn't aggressive so young, and rather just starving and used to fighting for the basics. GSD pups are land sharks anyway and quite vocal which can be mistaken for aggression when in fact it is all perfectly normal behavior. I also wonder if his legs are not forming properly because his malnurishment has lead to calcium deficiencies that are impeding normal bone growth? Maybe some calcium and D3 supplementation is necessary?


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## wolfstraum

Has your vet run a thyroid on him????? That he has suspicious coloration, and is tiny would make me wonder if there might be another genetic anomolies like dwarfism....just throwing that out there....

Lee


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## Myamom

I'm going to BEG you to PLEASE let him go to a reputable rescue! It's just too risky to adopt him out yourself...no matter how well you screen. No one really knows what is going on with him. What if the adopter takes him on thinking they can emotionally/financially handle it...and his condition turns out to be more than they expected? Then what? A reputable rescue is going to keep him in foster...get his condition properly assessed....treat him...adopt him out when he's well. AND...if an adopter ever can't keep him...he will go back to the rescue. He will have a safety net forever...which he doesn't have if you adopt him out...leaving the potential for him to get passed around from home to home...end up in a shelter....and/or euthanized. 

PLEASE


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## BowWowMeow

Myamom said:


> I'm going to BEG you to PLEASE let him go to a reputable rescue! It's just too risky to adopt him out yourself...no matter how well you screen. No one really knows what is going on with him. What if the adopter takes him on thinking they can emotionally/financially handle it...and his condition turns out to be more than they expected? Then what? A reputable rescue is going to keep him in foster...get his condition properly assessed....treat him...adopt him out when he's well. AND...if an adopter ever can't keep him...he will go back to the rescue. He will have a safety net forever...which he doesn't have if you adopt him out...leaving the potential for him to get passed around from home to home...end up in a shelter....and/or euthanized.
> 
> PLEASE


Puppies with undiagnosed health problems and aggression issues are not in high demand. I absolutely would go with the advice above and place him through a reputable rescue ONLY.


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## GSDElsa

Myamom said:


> I'm going to BEG you to PLEASE let him go to a reputable rescue! It's just too risky to adopt him out yourself...no matter how well you screen. No one really knows what is going on with him. What if the adopter takes him on thinking they can emotionally/financially handle it...and his condition turns out to be more than they expected? Then what? A reputable rescue is going to keep him in foster...get his condition properly assessed....treat him...adopt him out when he's well. AND...if an adopter ever can't keep him...he will go back to the rescue. He will have a safety net forever...which he doesn't have if you adopt him out...leaving the potential for him to get passed around from home to home...end up in a shelter....and/or euthanized.
> 
> PLEASE


 
Myamom has been in rescue a very long time. As has Ruth. Definitely heed their advice. The forever safety net will be well worth it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree ^^^


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Agree very much with these last few posts. 

When you are looking for rescues and screening them - because you have to - it just makes sense check to be sure they:
Have an application with vet and personal references
Do a home check
Take back the dog for the lifetime of the dog

Since you have a special needs puppy, look to see if they have any dogs with special needs: Big Dogs Big Hearts Rescue Buffalo NY Rochester NY is an example - you can look through the website and realize, hey, they have some cases that have required time and attention. 

Here is a rescue in Texas that is devoted to doing this specifically/only: Welcome to From The Heart Rescue I do not know their screening process but you might want to check with them.


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## Lilie

I'm not too far from you. In the Houston area. I would be willing to help with transport if you find a rescue that will take your pup.


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## Sleepyhouse22

*Just an update*

Hey everybody... I wanted to give an update to this thread. I don't know why... it was just on my mind.

It is so bizarre reading through this because it sounds like I'm speaking about a completely different dog. Truly, he was. The dog that I had then is nowhere near the dog I have now. He is my baby and my everything.

Needless to say, we have the greatest dog ever now. We are huge dog lovers so Ranger goes EVERYWHERE with us. We go to the grocery store, he comes along. Out for a run? By my side. Time to go to bed? Get in buddy!

From the advice of many, I kept track of his progress. I kept track of height, weight, major events, doctor visits, comparison to GSD standards. I still have every piece of paper possible from every doctor visit. 

This is the weight chart. As you can see, he didn't reach the standards until about 7 months. 

Age (months)..........Ranger (lbs).........Male GSD Standards
1...........................2.5......................9.2
2...........................6.1......................19.9
3...........................16.......................31.3
4...........................29.......................41.8
5...........................44.......................50.6
6...........................51.......................57.4
7...........................61.......................62.6
8...........................70.......................66.4
9...........................76.2.....................69.4
10.........................80........................72.0
11.........................83........................74.3
12.........................84........................76.0


2/2/2011Ranger was born.
3/5/20115 week puppy shots 
3/19/2011Ranger came home.
3/21/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Diagnosed with Roundworms & Coccidia / 7 Week puppy shots
3/26/2011Ranger learns 'Sit'
3/28/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Returned to vet due to not eating
4/2/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Still severe diarreah - received anti diarrheal medicine
4/5/2011Josey Ranch Vet Check - Coccidia healed, new parasite - subscribed medicine and wet food diet
4/8/2011Ranger learns 'Down'
4/9/2011Ranger learns 'Leave it'
4/11/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - 10 Week puppy shots / Heartworm medication
4/17/2011Ranger learns 'Heal'
4/19/2011Ranger learns 'Leave it' with treats on paws
4/23/2011Ranger learns 'Go to Sleep'
5/2/201113 Week puppy shots & Rabies Vaccination
5/14/2011Visited All Dogs Unleashed - unleashed poop everywhere
5/14/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Watery Poop - received anti diarrheal medicine
6/5/2011Ranger knocked speaker onto foot - Emergency Vet Visit - received pain killers
6/6/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - X-rays - Fractured Toe. Prescribed anti-inflammatory.
6/19/2011Calm Dog Training 
6/27/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Diarrhea - received anti diarrheal medicine
7/3/2011K9 Kountry Beginner's Obedience Training Class 1 
7/3/2011Ranger learns 'Front' and name game
7/10/2011K9 Kountry Beginner's Obedience Training Class 2
7/10/2011Ranger learns 'Stay'
7/15/2011Ranger learns 'Shake' and 'High Five'
7/21/2011K9 Kountry Beginner's Obedience Training Class 3
8/28/2011Ranger learns Jumping 'High Five'
9/13/2011Dallas Dog Sports Pre-Agility 1 Training Class 1 - (sit, down, stand, name game)9/15/2011Heartworm Medicine + Tick drops
9/19/2011Dallas Dog Sports Pre-Agility 1 Training Class 2 (touch, look, collar touch, pup call)9/27/2011Dallas Dog Sports Pre-Agility 1 Training Class 3 (stick touch, long stay, stay and okay to treat)
10/4/2011Skipped Training Classes 4, 5, and 6
10/10/2011Farmer's Branch Vet Check - Kennel Cough - received shot and antibiotics.
11/15/2011K9 Direction Trial Class - Puppy Class (Get Back, Okay), Adult Class (Place, Sit, Look, Heel)
11/19/2011K9 Direction 'Place' Workshop -Unlimited classes
11/23/2011Ranger learns 'Wave'
11/26/2011Ranger Hiked his leg while peeing for the first time
11/29/2011K9 Direction 1st Private Lesson
1/29/2012Ranger learns 'Back'
2/2/2012Ranger's first birthday

He is going to be three years old in February. We have him on Taste of the Wild full time. With every dinner he gets chicken breast, coconut oil sometimes, pumpkin every couple times, and sometimes fish oil. We found that we just didn't agree with most people's training standards or how we wanted our dog to be treated/learn. We joined more of a socialization group (K9 Direction for anybody interested in the Dallas area) that also works on obedience. He is AMAZING. He even made it to the top of the class into the "drill team" class for the especially amazing dogs. The class is off leash 100% of the time for Ranger, and he performs outstandingly. We socialize him every chance he gets. As for our other dog and cats... they are all ridiculous together. The cats drink out of the dogs' water bowl... the cats roam around the dogs while they're eating. Admittedly, we still freak out and yell at them to get away lol but nothing has ever happened. If anything, Ranger will look up and sniff their stinky little butts. 

I guess what I am trying to say is I would truly regret if I did not keep Ranger and work with him. However, we are not your everyday pet owner... we're the obsessive type who takes their dog everywhere and does everything for them. If something sounds interesting to us, we call first and see if dogs are welcome. If not... we may find something else to do lol. Thus, I felt like we provided him with everything he could have possibly needed to pull through his troubles and he did. 

If anybody is in doubt who ever gets in the situation that we were in, just ask for :help: and you will receive it at all corners! 

Anyway, pics!

You can see how much smaller he was than his brother growing up...now he is back to being bigger than his brother again.


And now...


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## selzer

Ranger will be three soon! Great pictures. I am glad you were able to stick it out with him. He looks very happy. Sometimes the right thing to do is to rehome, and sometimes the right thing to do is to keep them, and do the best you can. I am glad it worked out for you. He looks like a great guy.


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## Cassidy's Mom

What a fantastic update! I'm so glad you decided to stick it out and keep him. He has obviously flourished in your care. Great job!!! :thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA

Congratulations on a GOOD JOB!! Not many would have stuck it out and accomplished what you have, you should be proud!!

I see I'm not the only one who's anal about keeping records of 'everything',,it's good to be able to look back on things..

Continued success with Ranger, he looks great!


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