# Czech/DDR lines



## onyx'girl

I am looking to get a Czech/DDR(or DDR) line boy in the future. In other's experience, are these more stable in nerve and temperament than a German line? I love the black sable look, and would be getting into SchH as a newbie. New club, I am a new member, but my current dog hasn't got the temp for it. I don't want to get in over my head, and not do the dog justice. I have an eye on a breeder, but am open to this. Have been on the DDRlegends forum lurking, but as a newbe am too intimidated to ask there! Opinions are appreciated.
_this question was in another thread, and recommended to have its own subject line for more exposure_


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## onyx'girl

Too late to edit but I think I wanted this in bloodlines and pedigrees! Can this please be moved, mods?


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## lhczth

> Quote: In other's experience, are these more stable in nerve and temperament than a German line?


No. There is good and bad in both. Do your research!! Find a breeder who is active in SchH or has titled some dogs in the past at the very least. Too many people breeding "SchH" prospects who have no idea what it takes to title a dog. There are some good people out there with these lines. Just a matter of waiting for the right litter. Do not be in a hurry.

Other than looks, why do you want a dog from Czech/DDR lines? There are some super Czech/DDR/West German dogs competing in our region. Good luck in your search.

What breeder are you considering. You can send me a PM.


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## KristinEnn

I have a west german and a DDR. They are both different from each other even though they are half siblings. I love my Bella though, she is a challenge but I am up for it. I love that lil spit fire. I too like the darker/black sables! I dont know if this helps or not but wanted to share that we too are new to the DDR/czech lines and she keeps on our feet but she is fun!


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## onyx'girl

To be honest, it is all about the look. I hate to admit it, but there it is. I have admired the black sable for a long time, but am not sure that I can do justice to/for such a line. I like a challenge, though. Onyx has temp issues, so I am familiar w/ a strong, driven personality, she just hates the bitework phase of Sch. I am in the early research stages, want to stay in my own state, as there are many great ones right here, so no need to go too far, IMO. I will PM you, Lisa on the one I have an eye on, but it is just in the prelim. stage. So the more feedback the better!!


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## cliffson1

Jane, Lisa can steer you in the right direction and answer any questions you may not want to ask in public. I agree with her there dogs of good nerve and work ethic in either line. Although, I own DDR/Czech dogs, there are some black sable German dogs to die for!!


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## Jason_Sidener

> Originally Posted By: lhczth Too many people breeding "SchH" prospects who have no idea what it takes to title a dog.


Could not agree more Lisa


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## Brightelf

Jane, two breeders who have "the look" but (often) less drivey, less intense, less high-octane dogs:

http://www.milesriverddr.com

and

http://www.vonhena-c.com

A few of our board members have smart, handsome, fun dogs with good temperaments from these breeders. Just be upfront about wanting stable, easygoing, good beginner's dog.


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## luvsables

I know of a few breeders that will not sell a pup to someone who wants a specific color. A reputable breeder has the expereince to help you pick the right pup for you, especially if you want to do schutzhund. If a breeder sells a pup to someone who wants a specific color and does not take anything into consdieration that is a breeder that I would pass on, IMO they just want a sale and not looking at the best interest of the pup and potential owner.

If a pup that shows promise for the sport and it is a good match for the owner and happens to be the color you want that is great. When I was looking at the litter I got my pup from there were two that were the best match for me, one was black and one sable. I LOVE the sables and because I had the two to choose from I picked the sable but if the black was the only match for me he would have been my choice. Color is the least of your worries when buying a pup for schutzhund.


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## Bullet

Hi Jane,

One thing I would suggest is try to visit some other clubs and talk with some Czech/black sable dog owners about what they like or dislike about their dogs'. I think there are several clubs in the midwest that have members with Czech dogs also. You might have to make a few phone calls to club contacts, but even if you don't have the time to go and vist these people, I'm sure they would be willing to answer a few questions on the phone.

My club is in Western, Illinois, and we have 9 Czech dogs in our group right now. Some of these dogs wouldn't be appropriate for a beginner, but others would be. I mention that because we always welcome people to come and visit. Over the years I have seen a lot of people make bad choices, and the dog, the person, the persons family etc, all suffer. On the other hand I have seen lots of people that have made great choices and wouldn't trade their animal for anything. The latter are generally people that do a little research.

Be a good consumer is basically what I'm saying here. Use the information you gain from visiting the different dog clubs, make some phone calls, or better still try to have some hands on experience before making any decisions. You can rule out certain dogs or blood lines once you identify what you personally like and can live with. 

Picking a SchH prospect based on anything other than working abillity can close some doors for you with breeders. That being said though, if you do your homework, there are breeders that do in fact have darker pigmented dogs, breed for SchH work, and would be willing to explain their breeding programs to you.

That's where your friends and your SchH club can help you. Don't be in a hurry, and get some folks you trust to help you with your selection process. 

Al Govednik


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## lhczth

Excellent advice from Al. 

Yes, there are definitely clubs in our region who are experienced with Czech dogs and their crosses with West lines. Most are not a bad drive so would be worth visiting. Al's club, also, is not a horrible drive especially for the experience you could gain.


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## wolfstraum

A judicious blending of Czech and DDR with WGR can give you GORGEOUS black sables! 



















This is a half WGR dog out of a DDR/Czech female....I will be breeding her to a dog who is either Czech or Belgian...and expect to get black sables and blacks.

Lee


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## GunnerJones

I love my bad czech, the pushy bitch


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## doggiedad

isn't DDR a German line????


> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI am looking to get a Czech/DDR(or DDR) line boy in the future. In other's experience, are these more stable in nerve and temperament than a German line? I love the black sable look, and would be getting into SchH as a newbie. New club, I am a new member, but my current dog hasn't got the temp for it. I don't want to get in over my head, and not do the dog justice. I have an eye on a breeder, but am open to this. Have been on the DDRlegends forum lurking, but as a newbe am too intimidated to ask there! Opinions are appreciated.
> _this question was in another thread, and recommended to have its own subject line for more exposure_


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## BlackGSD

Yes, DDR is a "german line", but not the same as West German working lines which I believe is what the OP ment.


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## onyx'girl

Beautiful Pics Lee! I have been on the web all morning, my eyes are strained, overwhelming the infomation in my head right now, just looking at these beauties helps. Thanks for all the feedback and more is welcome!!!


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## JakodaCD OA

this is my 8mth old 'rocket', Masi, she is slovakian/ddr/czech..









Don't know how clear this bottom will come out but here goes:


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## onyx'girl

I am drooling over these pics, keep them coming, please!!!


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## KristinEnn

Bella says hello!! she is 5 months now and gets a lil darker I swear everyday. Well honestly her coat color seems to change all the time I just never know.. 

From this 









to this a 3 weeks later









another few weeks








this was around christmas time









so fun to watch a sables coat! of any color that is.. dark or light!


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## onyx'girl

Aww, Bella is a beauty! I remember seeing Kahn and he looks alot like my rescue Kacie, that is Mika in the pic above, isn't it?


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## doggiedad

i have an imported West German working-show dog. i don't know the difference between West German and DDR. i know i have this 19 month old, blk&red, easy to train, well trained, pet/companion.


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## JasperLoki

Jane,

Besides Loki's Breeder, I recommend this breeder.

http://www.schraderhausk9.com/index.html

And this one

http://www.vomlinmarc.com/html/about_german_shepherds.html

He can be found on ddrlegends forum, he is Steve Lino.


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## onyx'girl

Nuther question: How does the health of these lines differ, are they as prone to allergies, HD and all the other maladies that affects this breed?


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## cliffson1

Many people will tell you that there are less health issues with the DDR/Czech dogs....I will not submit this as fact because it would take an empirical testing to "prove". But I will say two things, Having owned West German showlines/DDR/Czech and Wesy workinglines, my anecedotal information is that my Czech and DDR dogs almost never got sick and were very "HARDY" in terms of not being receptive to anything that comes around...that;s just my experience and one of the reasons i like these dogs. Two. it is a fact that when dogs have been line/inbred for generation after generation on a narrow genepool you will start to see recssive ailment become very prevalent or much more so than should be ordinarily....sooooo draw your own conclusions.


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## Bullet

Hi Jane,

The reason I turned to czech dogs a long time ago was because I had 2 West German dogs in a row that had health problems. Jack had a elbow problem that really cut into his SchH work by the time he was 5 yrs old. I never used him as a stud for that reason. Then I had a pup that had the same problem, that I basically gave away at 6 mo. of age. 

So I turned to Czech dogs and haven't turned back. I have had reasonbly good luck health wise with my guys, ie their bloodlines for over 14 years now. My first Czech dog Gonzo just passed away last November. He had a shoulder problem from a helper falling on him when he was 5 yrs old, so no jumping. He sired a few litters over the years and no one had any health issues that I know of.

Lea also passed away last year from a cerebral hemorage while giving birth to my last litter of pups. I had 3 litters with her, and the pups are all doing well. We did have some issues with actually having the first litter of pups, where the pups were basically turned the wrong way. We had some experienced help with us that night as well, but we are an hour from a vet. So we lost several pups that night. Her other litters were fine though. She was 7 years old

Gita lived to 7 years as well, and did have problems getting pregnant. She was a great girl, but only had one pup. Gita developed cancer. 

When I got Hex, he had some terrible ear problems, but I believe that was from the previous owners' neglect. He will turn 5 at the end of January.

All of the dogs listed about earned at least SchH3, IPO3, FH2, They all had good hips and elbows. Like most everyone else that does our sport, I pretty much know when my dog is having a problem since we are together a lot of the time. As I mentioned above, I'm pretty happy with the health side of things with the older dogs I mentioned.

I also have a couple of youngsters coming up, Armor & Dobre that seem to be very strong active dogs without any health issues to date. My wife also has an older Czech/DDR female that she never did SchH with, and is 12 years old and is in great shape.

So to sum things up, I feel my 2 girls passed on way too early, but I'm not sure if the problems that did them in would be considered genetic or not. I never had any problems with food, allergies, teeth, etc. I also never had problems with dog aggression either. I'm not sure if that would be a genetic thing, or more environmental. 

Al Govednik


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## doggiedad

why would a breeder not sell a puppy to someone that wants a specific color??? for many years blk&tan was my favorite color now it's blk&red. i go to a breeder with those colors. they shouldn't sell me a puppy because i want a blk&tan or blk&red?? i think a breeder won't sell you a puppy in a certain color because they don't have the color and type of dog you want. you can go to a breeder and pick male or female and i think that's more important than color concerning how you and your puppy/dog match and how the puppy/dog matches your life style. if i go to a breeder and tell them i want a black dog and they dont have black dogs but they have a match for me. are they selling me what i want? the dog they have might be a match but it's not the color i want si am i really happy with it? you can find the color you want and the perfect match. you just need to look at other breeders.

when i bought my puppy i wanted a blk&red puppy. i didn't worry about nerves, tempermant, drive etc. i knew if i found a good breeder the puppy and i would match each other. i bought a imported working , West German show dog. he's from a full line of Schutzhund titled dogs both the males and females. when i bought my puppy i knew i wasn't going to Schutzhund title him. our dog is well trained and super friendly. outside he's very active. inside he's very calm. he retrieves, plays tug, plays with other dogs, sleeps in our bed (sometimes), when horses pass us on the trails there's no reaction. in the summer he goes to nice restaurants with us. we sit on the deck and he lays there quietly. sometimes there's other dogs on the deck but they're well trained also so there's no problem. 

i picked my dog by color. i knew if i went to a good breeder there would be no problem. a good breeder, good training, makes a good dog.


> Originally Posted By: luvsablesI know of a few breeders that will not sell a pup to someone who wants a specific color. A reputable breeder has the expereince to help you pick the right pup for you, especially if you want to do schutzhund. If a breeder sells a pup to someone who wants a specific color and does not take anything into consdieration that is a breeder that I would pass on, IMO they just want a sale and not looking at the best interest of the pup and potential owner.
> 
> If a pup that shows promise for the sport and it is a good match for the owner and happens to be the color you want that is great. When I was looking at the litter I got my pup from there were two that were the best match for me, one was black and one sable. I LOVE the sables and because I had the two to choose from I picked the sable but if the black was the only match for me he would have been my choice. Color is the least of your worries when buying a pup for schutzhund.


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## Betty

I have no problem with someone that wants a particular color. I have my own preferences.

But I will only place dogs that are appropriate for the person, drive and personality wise. 

I tell them what I have available that fits them and if the color/markings isn't what they prefer I understand.


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## onyx'girl

I think the point luvsables was trying to make is just because I want a black sable, I may not know what I am getting into with this type of dog? Most of the Czech lines, this is the predominant color! But I think I understood her post. Example: if there was only one black dog in the litter and I insisted on it because I wanted a black, even though the breeder knew it wasn't a good match, but just wanted the sale so let me buy it anyway, this would be a breeder to possibly pass on.
But if I really wanted the black sable and had to choose the black, I would wait or go w/ another litter or breeder.


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## BlackGSD

I can totally understand someone having a color preference. HOWEVER I can also understand a breeder not wanting to mess with someone that MUST have a certain color.

For instance, someone wants a SUPER DUPER black sable male pup with a certain temperment. The breeder might "get lucky" and have one in the first litter of the buyers choice. OR it might take several litters for the "right puppy in the correct colored wrapper" to come along. I know of folks that have waited thru several litters for the "right puppy in the right color" and had NO ISSUES with waiting a year of more if necessary, but it seems to ME that it would get to be a pain in the rear for the breeder after a while.

I will admit that I too wanted a VERY dark black sable pup. BUT I also told the breeder that in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't the end of the world if I got a lighter sable or even a solid black pup as long as the pups temperment matched what I wanted and NEEDED. As it turns out, Siren was the LIGHTEST one in the litter. I had me choice between her and 2 of the other females in the litter and they were BOTH darker than she was, but she is the one that sounded and acted most like what I wanted as far as temperment goes. (Though the other 2 were fairly close.)


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## Brightelf

I'll get EVERYONE mad at me, but here goes: In case you honestly just love a certain color, but want a relatively no-fuss dog this time around... why not select from a DDR breeder who does not breed for high-octane sportdogs? I posted a few links in my last reply. Mellow can be a good thing.









On the other hand, if intense is what you want, even the most easygoing pup in a litter where the breeder selects for high drives will be more intense than many pet folks are accustomed to. This intensity has advantages and disadvantages. Advantages may be the strong desire to work with you to do stuff, if you want a dog nudging you to play often... disadvantages may be reactivity.

I am happy I have







Grimm. He is very loving. But: He is too intense for me sometimes.







He is young. These lines stay young a long time. <span style="color: #3333FF">I have learned that folks loving and living with certain lines make it look easy, we aren't all suited to the higher octane pooches, even though others on the forum show cute homelife photos of their similar dogs.</span> 

Make your choice based on what you want to live with. Intense or mellow, you can find one in dark sable, if you are willing to really put temperament first. Be wary of someone gushing about her dog's type and lines... if you cannot imagine living the way she does with her dog, including management of drives, energy level, intensity. Each dog IS different... but lines created for more oomph need someone new to those lines to choose wisely and with care.


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## Brightelf

Here are a few photos. Grimm is Czech. Dad is Congo Vikar, Mom is a Xero Pohranicni straze daughter. 

The good and the bad: He is strongminded, loving, impatient, kissy, intense, funny, powerful, pushy, smart, reactive, social, and settles well in the house. Medium energy, medium drives. Happy upbeat guy to live with, deeply intuitive (really), who however can be overenthusiastic/impatient/reactive.



















My FAVORITE pic: This shows his dearer, sweeter side... my special, strong-minded,







loving boy..


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## onyx'girl

Patti, Grimm is one of the reasons I want for my next dog to be from these lines. That and I fell in love with Luke aka The Thug, along with others on this site that have the same coloring. Your description of him forgot to had Hunky Handsome!!
I have a pretty active household, Onyx can be a butt-head, so I know how difficult a stubborn drivey dog can be. She just hasn't got the right temp. for SchH and when we go to training, I usually just observe as now we are doing the protection training(too dark & wintery for tracking) She cannot handle protection phase at all. She would be great in tracking, though. So yes, I will tell the breeder I eventually choose what my goals are, household is like, etc. and hope a great match is made. Most of the breeders I am looking at, the whole litter will be dk sable so shouldnt be hard to do hopefully. I do want a male though, as 3 girls in the house just wouldn't work, I am sure.


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## Liesje

Question: what exactly is a _black_ sable? I always thought it meant the dog was really, really, really dark or even bi-colorish, but I see some dogs in this thread that I would have just called "sable".

is this a black sable?









I guess I would have thought these ones would be black sables....

























...but this one not?









(these are just random dogs on PDB)


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## doggiedad

that makes sense. maybe i'm taking the OP the wrong way.


> Originally Posted By: Betty101I have no problem with someone that wants a particular color. I have my own preferences.
> 
> But I will only place dogs that are appropriate for the person, drive and personality wise.
> 
> I tell them what I have available that fits them and if the color/markings isn't what they prefer I understand.


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## onyx'girl

To me, #1 and 3 are more of the blk sable, 2 and 4 look like red sable with dark pigment, the last one looks like a dark sable. I think they are all considered blk.though. It is the bloodline maybe- the reddish ones are mixed w/W.German? and the others are Czech. I am still in the learning stages so could be wrong. Please correct me if I am. They are all beautiful. The pigment down the legs and penciling is the look that I love!! And the eye highlights, stunning...


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## JasperLoki

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHere are a few photos. Grimm is Czech. Dad is Congo Vikar, Mom is a Xero Pohranicni straze daughter.
> 
> The good and the bad: He is strongminded, loving, impatient, kissy, intense, funny, powerful, pushy, smart, reactive, social, and settles well in the house. Medium energy, medium drives. Happy upbeat guy to live with, deeply intuitive (really), who however can be overenthusiastic/impatient/reactive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> My FAVORITE pic: This shows his dearer, sweeter side... my special, strong-minded,
> 
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> loving boy..


LOL, Patti, sounds like Loki to a T














(Loki is impatient, however I am working on it).

Lies, my Loki is a black sable, he should get darker as he gets older)-according to my breeder.

He is related to Patti's Grimm. I think with sables (or black sables), they get darker as they get older (or after their puppy coat is gone? (Patti, is that correct?).

This is Loki's parents.

http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/orry.html

http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/gasi.html

and this is Loki, he is 9 weeks of age.


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## spartshep

Puck ~ Black sable









Jamba ~ Black sable









Bea ~ Red sable









Haike ~ Dark Sable


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## Brightelf

Jack, absolutely right.







Loki will get darker as he matures! Don't be surprised if he seems lighter first though, or if he develops a ring round his tail and a stripe down his back for a few weeks. Baby sables get the eel stripe and the raccoon ring tail thing happenin' sometimes. It's temporary!









Grimm at 12 weeks:










Grimm at nearly 2 years:










Jane, I specificly asked Dari at VanDenHeuvelK9 for "medium, balanced drives, medium energy, stable dog, must be able to be calm & settled in the house." He was the most stable male in the litter, and is deeply intuitive, and astoundingly empathetic... that's the last thing I expected from these lines, but he tenderly, lovingly gravitates towards anyone who is very ill or disabled or elderly, and tiny toddlers, too. He's all heart.







My challenge is surviving his teenagerhood--







the teenaged intensity in these lines is a lot to deal with (for me, anyway),even with mental and physical outlets. Expect to get more than you bargained for, so maybe find a wonderfully supportive club ..maybe the one you have for Onxy now?







who can help you either to 
a.) channel that intensity into sport, or
b.) guide you instead to reward each and every CALM moment that dog has in learning self-control.
Grimm would love you if he met you, Jane. Grimm loves everybody!!


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## Betty

God Connie, we need more pictures of Mr. Puck!

Isn't it time for his Florida vacation?


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## BritneyP

Not that it really matters, but many people THINK they have a TRUE black sable and often times they don't.

Lies, the only dog I might consider a true black sable out of the dogs you posted is Iltis von der Wildsau, who is the 3rd dog down.

Connie's Puck is also a perfect example of a TRUE black sable. He probably looked black as a puppy.


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## spartshep

Brit~having known and seen Wolf (Iltis), yes, he is a true black sable. Puck was a little more red when he came from Germany...he got darker as he aged. Now at 6, he is what he is, but with sables, who knows







Betty~~nice to see you here...haven't spoken to you in a while. Unfortunately, Puck and all the rest love the snow and cold here. They dislike heat and humidity, so Puck will pass on that Florida vacation. However, you and your crew are most welcome here for a taste of the winter wonderland









Just for you, Betty!


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## Betty

He's magnificent!


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## onyx'girl

Puck+Jamba







~what great pups would there be with this combo!!!
Send me a lil boy, please???


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## spartshep

Well Jane, there could be one just like this one in the oven...We'll see beginning of Feb.


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## onyx'girl

I will impatiently wait for update....


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## mjbgsd

*Faints from to many beautiful dogs*








Such magnificant colors and beautiful looking dogs, one reason why I fell in love with the DDR/Czech lines.


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## Betty

> Originally Posted By: spartshepWell Jane, there could be one just like this one in the oven...We'll see beginning of Feb.


hmmmmmmmmmm 

.....must resist.................


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## Amaruq

As mentioned earlier even "mixed" lines can be nice dark sables. No KC is not a black sable, however, genetically there is no "black sable"


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## duenorth

> Originally Posted By: spartshepWell Jane, there could be one just like this one in the oven...We'll see beginning of Feb.


Now that is a stunning puppy!!


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## onyx'girl

http://www.eastgermanshepherd.com/
This site is interesting.


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## spartshep

Cheryl~~thank you...he lives in Ypsilanti, will do Personal Protection as he gets older.

Jane~~That site has been around since before I got into the DDR dogs. It was owned by Teri Rosegaard...some people might remember her. Yvonne Hecht was very much involved in that site, too. In fact, Yvonne used to own/moderate DDRGSD site with Teri. Moc is still Northwest K9.


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## KristinEnn

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlAww, Bella is a beauty! I remember seeing Kahn and he looks alot like my rescue Kacie, that is Mika in the pic above, isn't it?


Im sorry hun i totally saw this post late. lol.. yep that is Mika with Bella. I have been so scared about having to females together but ... so far so good. Yes I remember beautiful miss Kacie that looks like Kahn's twin.. How is she doing!?


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## KristinEnn

... and speaking of color. I think Bella is either going to be a red sable or a dark sable. Although I am in awe of the true black sables much like Bella's Sire. Aron Vom Poppitz. 
The funny story is.. Like Tracy (Siren's mom, Siren is Bella's half sister) I had wanted something else than what I got. I wanted an all black female. My breeder only had one lil black female in the litter that he had wanted to keep for himself also he said her drive was the highest of the females. Infact all the females of the litter where spitfires. We actually got one of the calmest females of the litter which is... hard to believe. She has a high drive IMO. 
We had a choice between two sable females, one lighter than the other and one higher drive than the other. We picked the darker female with the lower drive. Still a HIGH drive though for me but she is fun. Its so funny too because I had my heart set on a all black female but everything happens for a reason and I love my miss Bella. She gets more and more beautiful to me everyday as she matures.


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## bosco146

Bear is an Aron son too, and he went some time without any red on him, then all of a sudden his legs got real red and you could see it in his coloring


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## Doc

Check these out:

http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/aboutus.html


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## BlackGSD

Since it has been mentioned that Siren, Bella and Bear are Aron "babies," I thought I would post a few pics of Aron that I took. (Anton is also an Aron son). 

Aron is what I would call a *BLACK* sable. 










Waiting for someone to throw the ball.










Here he is with Sirens litter when they were 8 weeks.


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## onyx'girl

Thanks for sharing the great pics Tracy, which pup is Siren w/ her daddy?


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## BlackGSD

She is the one closest to the A frame in the first pic. She isn't in the second pic.


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## Doc

How in Sam Hill do you paste pictures in this thread? These dogs are beautiful!


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## onyx'girl

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=932149&page=3#Post932149
^^^This thread will tell you how, just clik on it^^^

By the way, Welcome Doc!!!


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## LuvourGSDs

duenorth said:


> Now that is a stunning puppy!!


 
OMG, must agree here 110% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wub: :wub: :wub:

Come Feb. & you have too many of these guys on your hand, well.................. I can PM you my address & you can throw one down to us in OH ! LOL  

Just stunning................... I need to win the lotto big time !


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## GSD07

I :wub: Aron!


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## Gsdcrazy

How do you know your bloodline I have a pup out of ayk com horrenwinkel


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## Gsdcrazy

That should have read ayk vom horrenwinkel ,is it DDR, Czech?


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## carmspack

not DDR 
not Czech

yes west German working -- UNIVERSAL SIEGER V Ayk vom Horrenwinkel


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## EMH

carmspack said:


> not DDR
> not Czech
> 
> yes west German working -- UNIVERSAL SIEGER V Ayk vom Horrenwinkel


Should get a lot of drive from that dog!


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## Gsdcrazy

Yes she is full of fire lol she won't sit still


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## carmspack

who is the dam ?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2324554-capone-vom-reeboch
nice combination


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## Gsdcrazy

Not sure at the moment, can check her papers when I get home from work, got the pup from Reeboch kennel in Atlanta ga


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## Gsdcrazy

Dam is Kayla von reeboch


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