# Raw food in freezer longevity question



## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I have decided to take the plunge and get a freezer for Wolfie! Looking at a 12.1 cu ft frost free freezer (DH and I are lazy about house work and have no desire to manually defrost







). 12.1 cu ft is the most affordable frost free model that we can find. My question is this: how long does food remain edible in the freezer? Trying to figure out my first big order, hence my question







Thank you, in advance, for your responses!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

We, too, just got a new freezer for the dogs raw food. I just googled around to find the answers. They usually have a range of time when food stays fresh (ie. 3-6 months) and mention that frost-free freezers would be on the lower end as they warm up occasionally to take care of the frost. 

Our freezer, packed really well, will only hold a couple of months worth of food, if that, and most things last at least 3-4 - more often 6-9. So, I don't worry about it.

That said, I have heard of people who take freezer-burned or old food from others to feed their dogs and they seem to be OK. Not for us (Just me - I would wonder about nutritional value), but it seems to work just fine for others.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Martie, is yours a frost free one? The order I am looking to place will last us 6 months and I'm wondering if that's okay...


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

No - ours is not frost free - which really gave me more confidence. I would bet 6 months is no problem at all - but am very sure more experienced raw feeders will weigh in here with information more appropriate to your situation. We have just started with a much smaller freezer than yours and feel confident about a couple of months, which is the most we will ever have.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can feed food older than a year, though the quality may be diminished. Freezerburned food is ok, too. 
The rule for human is 12 months, for dogs, I would feed no more than 1.5 yrs old. 
I would think the nutritional value decreases as it gets older.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I do feed food older that 1.5 years BUT I do not make a habit out of it. I accept food from friends that they would otherwise be toss. BUT I also have 7 dogs so I can spread that 3 pound package of burger 7 ways instead of one or two and I feed it with fresher food so it is not like they eat 2 year old freezer burnt meat for a large portion of their overall diet.


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

Just a word on frost free...I have two Kenmore freezers, both are NOT frost free...one is 5 cu ft and the other is 9. The 5 needed to be defrosted after 3 years and the 9 hasn't been defrosted yet in 2 years and probably won't need to be for a long time. 

I feed food that is probably up to 8 months old...doesn't last longer than that around here


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Thank you, Amaruq, Jane and Martie, for your take on this. I guess the longest I would go is 6 or maybe 7 months, if I am mixing in fresh meats from Wegmans, etc. The only issue is my freezer being a frost free one (as Martie pointed out). So, Amaruq & Jane, would you feel safe doing 7 months with a frost free freezer?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

You know, Melissa, I was thinking about the manual defrost ones initially. But I saw Laurie mentioning using an icepick to free some of the food, and told DH who then had visions of us two clutzes heading to the ER and nixed that one quick. I was actually considering the 9 cu ft one at first. Does yours ever need to be freed forcibly like that? At what temp do you keep yours?


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 2SableGirlsJust a word on frost free...I have two Kenmore freezers, both are NOT frost free...one is 5 cu ft and the other is 9. The 5 needed to be defrosted after 3 years and the 9 hasn't been defrosted yet in 2 years and probably won't need to be for a long time.


Wonderful to hear! Sure hope that holds true for ours.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

If you use Food Saver Bags you can get a longer life on the food too and the quality of the food + nutritional value should not diminish since the oxygen is removed from the food storage bag.

http://www.foodsaver.com/FoodStorage.aspx

I was looking at these for food storage for emergency rations - sounds like for frozen foods this would be a good longer term solution with a freezer. For dry goods - the mylar bags + food saver bags works even better - longer storage.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I think the Foodsaver is great idea but lazy me doesn't want to do it for meat upwards of 300 lbs. I would rather go the large cheap ziplock bag route, like Laurie does.


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

My husband is a licensed refridgeration tech. He explained to me, the heaters are only around the cooling coils, not inside the freezer itself. They are on a schedule to kick on and off to defrost them each day, or two, so there is no build up of ice. The max amount of time that this may be happening is less then 30 mins. If anything, the temps inside the freezer may adjust by a degree or two at most, however, still keeping it well below freezing. Add to that, the amounts of food inside the freezer will also keep the cold in and can last for more then 12 hours if you have a power outage, such as an ice storm, as long as the door is kept closed. 

Its the coils inside the freezer that need to be warmed just slightly to remove the build up. It is not the freezer itself shutting down.

Air flow is the secret to the defrosting freezer. Even ice you want to keep in a freezer will disapate in a big freezer. It freeze dries over time with air moving around it. There is a changer with a matrix in it that is a cooling mechanism. The fan blows air over the compartment keeping everything frozen. Water vapor ends up on this matrix and thus causes it to cycle. To defrost, the fan is disabled and the matrix is heated up slightly leaving the frozen food frozen and melting the ice particles on the plastic walls of the freezer. The water then drains down the back of the freezer into a pipe and an external tray. It then notifies that it is warmer to the matrix and thus causes it to re freeze.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I don't know if anyone has ever done a study on what gets lost in food over time in a freezer. Personally, I don't care.









Length in a freezer will affect foods in several ways. The #1 way - it gets dried out (see Dorians post above). This makes for diminished flavor and tougher meat for us HUMANS.

Dogs don't care.

It can also mean some loss of nutrients. But you are not putting a bunch of meat in a freezer and letting ALL of it sit for X months. You are feeding through it over time.

I had (HAD) two freezers just for the dogs. I was buying in bulk to get the best costs. I ordered enough to last me 3-6 months at a time. I needed both those freezers.

Now, with the Sustainable selections, I have access to enough each week to feed my whole crew for that week so I am working my way down to having only 2-3 weeks reserve in a freezer, just in case.

I already emptied out one of the freezers!! I plan to shut it down, clean it out and put it out in our barn for storage. I just can't bring myself to sell it ... not just yet.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Dorian They are on a schedule to kick on and off to defrost them each day, or two, so there is no build up of ice. The max amount of time that this may be happening is less then 30 mins. If anything, the temps inside the freezer may adjust by a degree or two at most, however, still keeping it well below freezing.


Thank you Dorian (and your DH too) for the nice explanation. So having heard from the mechanical pros and the raw feeding veterans, I think we'll be fine with the frost free kind!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

My alternative vet who is a HUGE proponent of raw (and tries to get all of her clients to feed raw) says that the amino acids in meat start to break down immediately once meat is frozen. By the time meat is about 3-6 months old, the nutritional value is minimal.

She also says that meat shouldn't be refrozen more than once for the same reason. Consider that amino acids are like a strand of beautiful perfect pearls. The more we process the meat, the more mottled and ulcerated they become. If we freeze the meat for too long, it's basically the same as cooking the meat for too long, or even serving it in kibble form. While feeding freezer burned meat won't HARM your dog, you can see that obviously, it isn't healthy meat that's full of nutrients.

If you buy meat at its serve-by date, freeze it for a year, then defrost it, let it sit in the refridge for a week, then feed it, you won't necessarily HARM your dog, but it's kind of like, what's the point? 

So, the best thing to do is buy the freshest meat possible, freeze it once (if you must freeze it at all) and serve it as soon as you can after it's defrosted. If you buy frozen meat, try not to let it defrost entirely when you chop it into servings to refreeze it. 

My feeling is that I feed a raw diet to get the BEST nutrition available to my dogs. I don't do all of this work to serve them something that's half good or 75% as good as it could be because I'm too busy or lazy to rotate stock in my freezer. In fact, I had a bunch of meat in my freezer that I tossed because my primary raw fed dog passed away and I didn't get a puppy for a while. I didn't want to give my pup "sort of" good meat. So I started all over. Did it kill us to toss all that meat, especially in the middle of the recession? It nearly did.









But if we're going to feed food that's "kind of" good, we might as well feed a good quality kibble.







Dogs don't care. But they also don't know whether a steak offers everything it should or only half of what it should. That's my job.









So I buy less, more frequently, and I rotate my freezer's contents often to make sure that I'm not "losing" older meat at the bottom.


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

I went from a crappy puppy food, to a good quality kibble, to pre-prepared raw food all in one month. I definitely cannot worry about making sure the dogs food is not frozen now. I buy my pup's food frozen, and I use it within a week. Thats the best I'll ever do, not gonna lie.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomMy alternative vet who is a HUGE proponent of raw (and tries to get all of her clients to feed raw) says that the amino acids in meat start to break down immediately once meat is frozen. By the time meat is about 3-6 months old, the nutritional value is minimal.


From the *USDA*:



> Quote:The freezing process itself does not destroy nutrients. In meat and poultry products, there is little change in nutrient value during freezer storage.


http://www.ucop.edu/riskmgt/bsas/bsas_op/documents/freezingfood_safety.pdf


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

The USDA? The same folks that say it's ok for meat manufacturers to put ammonia in ground beef to kill bacteria?









This is just an abstract. Without the whole study, I won't invest my life savings in this, but it's worth noting that:



> Quote:
> 
> The flavour of cooked meat and the acceptability of frozen meat, especially those of lamb meat, are affected to a great extent by methods of cooking such as boiling or roasting. These methods of cooking degrade meat protein as an activity of proteolytic enzymes during storage. *Amino acids contents, especially essential ones, decreased during freezing and storage in both selected muscles (Longissimus dorsi muscle and Biceps femoris muscle) under investigation. *


http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113408656/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Harold McGee says something similar in his book _On food and cooking: the science and lore of the kitchen _:



> Quote:
> 
> [Freezing] is drastic physical treatment that inevitably causes damage to muscle tissue and therefore diminishes meat quality in several ways. As raw meat freezes, growing crystals protrude the soft cell membranes and puncture them. ...
> 
> In addition to inflicting physical damage, freezing causes chemical changes that limit the storage life of frozen meats. When ice crystals form and remove liquid water from the muscle fluids, the increasing concentration of salts and trace metals promotes the oxidation of unsaturated fats and rancid flavors accumulate.


http://books.google.com/books?id=iX05JaZ...page&q=&f=false


I trust my vet, who as I said, is a proponent of raw diets and highly regarded in our region as a practioner and a professor. I'm not an expert in biochemistry, but what she says makes sense to me. So I'm passing along what she says... avoid re-freezing and avoid freezing for long periods of time.

People can do what they want with the info. That's all.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

So what if you use the food saver? It removes the possibility of crystals and freezer burn by removing oxygen....Would that help reduce the possibility? 

Normally, how much would be lost? I mean folks on this board have been freezing and feeding for a long time and their dogs are doing great. Not discounting what the vet said, but just looking at the dogs and then wondering how much could actually be lost - maybe the same amount that wouldn't be digested anyway perhaps?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

*Got the frost-free freezer!!*

This one:
http://www.orvilles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...tegory_Code=UPR

Now we are waiting on the goodies for the Wolfmeister!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Yay!!







Congrats on the new freezer! This is a great brand. And a huge size-- you'll really be able to buy in bulk! Yay for Wolfy-boy, too! He's going to be one healthy dog!


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Thanks Patti







Wolfie is getting a mix of chicken backs, necks & gizzards; beef kennel mix (trimmings from steaks & roasts); turkey necks & hearts; pork neck bones and duck necks. I am keeping my fingers crossed about the pork neck bones. The last time I gave him pork (pork chops actually) he puked really stinky







If pork RMB doesn't suit him either, no more piggies for Wolfie.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Woohooo! Congrats on the new freezer. It's a beauty!

Have you fed the kennel mix before? Our meat market has this, but I passed on it for now as we are just starting. Is there a lot of fat? Would you feed it as a full MM meal? Any other info?

Thanks,


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Oh man, Wolfster is gonna be eatin' GOOD.







Hos diet looks healthy and good for him! Way to go with feeding him a raw diet. Do you give him some tripe or veggie mush too? 

I just have a 5 ft cu freezer, and for one dog, it works okay. But that 12 cu ft freezer will really let you stock on when you get great deals and buy in bulk. Woohoo!


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Martie, the place I'm getting Wolfie's stuff from said that the Kennel mix doesn't have much fat in it (no more than the 80/20 beef i.e.), so I'll be treating it like MM. I'll let you know once I have actually tested the stuff though.

Patti, I give Wolfie green tripe for the vegetable matter. That's like dessert to him and he gets it at the end of his meal. Nothing gets him drooling like green tripe! And it's good for his kidneys too







And you know, I actually looked for a smaller sized freezer but they don't make them frost free, at least not at this price. Go figure! And I don't know if I told you this but in July when I switched Wolfie over to Raw, your pictures of Grimm were the ones that I had used to solidify my case to DH, who was being difficult at first. So a big thank you to Patti!!!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Thank you! I'll head back up to the market and talk to them about their kennel mix and give it a try. The only thing I don't have a good source for yet is green tripe - will have to look into that more. Do you get it fresh? Is it awful to work with?

Patti - Grimm's before and after shots really helped with my DH, too. Thank you so much for sharing those. After just five days on this diet, Luther is already showing amazing changes. We couldn't be happier!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Martie, I'm so glad if the pics helped! Just wait until a month after raw, you'll be hearing comments from others about how fabulous Luther is looking!









Tripe: I get it frozen from Oma's Pride. It is easy to work with. Just take our a rounded chunk from your freezer 10 mins before a meal, Chunk of a very small bit into the foodbowl. I also add a very small bit of frozen berries, frozen spinach, and blanched sweetpotato.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Wolfie's Mommy, I'm glad Grimm's pics helped you, too!









The amazing thing with those pics is, Grimm was on a very snobby, top of the line, hoity-toity premium grain-free kibble during those "before" pics.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*



> Originally Posted By: Martie Is it awful to work with?


In the beginning, yeah! If you have a sensitive nose, it's worse. But you know, you get used to it after a while and for me, when I see Wolfie's reaction, it doesn't matter what it smells like anymore!


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*



> Originally Posted By: BrightelfWolfie's Mommy, I'm glad Grimm's pics helped you, too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, for Wolfie, the most amazing changes have been all internal. His creatinine values before Raw was 3.3 and after just one month on Barf, it went to 2.7. That is a pretty decent drop for kidney values. Since August, it has been holding steady at the 2.7 - 2.8 range and I hope it continues to do so (what happened to the "fingers crossed" icon? Superstitious me used to use it a lot.) (As an aside: I just couldn't believe how much the Cornell vets were pushing the K/D diet on him.)


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

Happy kidneys for Wolfie-- yay!!

Lauri's site has or did have a story about Sadie, a Husky female who was in horrible condition and being on raw really helped her heal amazingly. The photos are stunning. Some are in the sticky here in the forum before-and-after thread. I think of Sadie when I hear of a dog with a health problem turning to raw. My dogs had always been on kibble. There are plenty of great kibbles out there. I am not at all anti-kibble. But compared to real food with all the nutrients being bioavailable, kibble by comparison is meat-based croutons sprayed with vitamins. It takes some time to learn to formulate a balanced raw diet. But the research is worth it. And, we don't all feed identical raw. But, we seek to feed variety, achieve balance-- and wow, the results for a dog who is not doing well is impressive, and a relief.

I am hoping Wolfie's numbers stay where we want them!









You do get used to feeding and handling raw really quickly. Seeing the results make it more than worth it, when you look at your dog looking and feeling SO MUCH better.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Got the frost-free freezer!!*

I also get my tripe from Oma's pride in 2lb chubs. It fits into the medium size gladware containers perfectly and the puppers love it! 

The smell doesn't bother me, but I'm odd and like the smell of cows so I guess I wouldn't listen to me on that!


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