# Critique please



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Your thoughts.....

SuperG


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

It's not the critique I know you're hoping for but, Hubba hubba! He's one handsome dog and so richly pigmented too!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Is this your dog? I would hate to critique(however poorly) someone else's dog. I stink at critiques, so don't want to offend someone other than the owner asking.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Is he one of those fancy pantsy WGSL


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Fairly typical WGSL structured male. Excellent shoulder on him.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Beautiful masculine male, big head, good wither, good top line, good croup, nice rear angulation, good front and rear angulation, stands very correct. could have more forchest and the skin around the neck could be tighter if you were being picky.
If he moves Aswell as he looks he could easily be v-rated


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

That's Zamp v Thermodos. Knew I recognized that dog...I have a Zamp grandson. Zamp was pretty "famous" in the German show world.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I have to say I am impressed with most every opinion....

gsdlover 91 has the keenest eye as far as distinguishing who the dog was....yep..it's the late great Zamp. THE LEGEND - ZAMP

gsdlover91....I found out that my 2 year old bitch is a great grand daughter of Zamp...and I'm certain there are many in this forum who own GSDs with Zamp Vom Thermodos blood involved...the list of progeny is gigantic.

I hope none of you are too ticked off with my bit of chicanery by posting a "critique" post with a picture of one of the most popular World Sieger winners...along with best of breed at Crufts...a first for a German Sieger.

Anyway, it is reassuring to see there are some folks in this forum who know much more than I will ever know about a basic critique from a motionless picture.

SuperG


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I LOVED Zamp.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I know Zamp if I see him! He's got a pretty recognizable face. Heres my guys pedigree. He's got Zamp really close up. The charismatic face of his definitely passed on to my guy. 

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1937716-valco-berlin-vom-hokschhaus



SuperG said:


> gsdlover 91 has the keenest eye as far as distinguishing who the dog was....yep..it's the late great Zamp. THE LEGEND - ZAMP
> 
> gsdlover91....I found out that my 2 year old bitch is a great grand daughter of Zamp...and I'm certain there are many in this forum who own GSDs with Zamp Vom Thermodos blood involved...the list of progeny is gigantic.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LOL..already had viewed Berlin's pedigree to see where the pedigree changed from my gal.

Been a fan of coats all along....had 3 of them.....

SuperG


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

SuperG said:


> LOL..already had viewed Berlin's pedigree to see where the pedigree changed from my gal.
> 
> Been a fan of coats all along....had 3 of them.....
> 
> SuperG




Ironically, both of mine have ended up being coats, and I didn't specifically ask/look for a coated dog. Its funny it ended up that way....after I got Berlin I wanted a coated WL. And then I changed my mind, and I wanted a stock coat working line (ill admit, the SL long coat is a lot of work LOL) but...somehow ended up with a little long coat WL girl...guess they're just meant for me 

Whats your girls pedigree?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zamp.... No need to critique as famous as he is, there are koer reports, etc. What worries me about him is as prolific as he is, he died kind of young. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but longevity in the lines is something I take into consideration when looking to buy another WGSL or breed mine.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Zamp.... No need to critique as famous as he is, there are koer reports, etc. What worries me about him is as prolific as he is, he died young. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but longevity in the lines is something I take into consideration when looking to buy another WGSL or breed mine.


Yep...I actually posted a thread on here 2 years ago about that. He died at 8. Fortunately, the other half of Berlins pedigree seems to be doing okay health wise. Quenn is still alive and well at almost 12 years old and both of Berlins parents are still healthy and alive. That 8 year death though, scares me. Next time I get a SL, that is something I would research way more. I did it this time around with Tesla though! Boy is very very healthy still!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's hard because things just happen. Cancer, bloat, some autoimmune issues that crop up later in life....you do all you can but you cannot predict a lot of these things if they don't regularly occur in the lines. Nikon has some health stuff in his lines here or there as well.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

gsdlover91 said:


> Ironically, both of mine have ended up being coats, and I didn't specifically ask/look for a coated dog. Its funny it ended up that way....after I got Berlin I wanted a coated WL. And then I changed my mind, and I wanted a stock coat working line (ill admit, the SL long coat is a lot of work LOL) but...somehow ended up with a little long coat WL girl...guess they're just meant for me
> 
> Whats your girls pedigree?


Yes, the coats are a bit of work especially when they blow their coats and perhaps more grooming is required but the amount of shed coming off them on a daily basis seems less than a stock coat...could be because of the additional daily grooming ?

Kaia's pedigree...the picture was taken after I gave her one of my " I'm too cheap to take her to a professional groomer" butcherings. In the album I have in my profile there are pics of her in her longstock coat without being altered.

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2228390-yakaia-vom-herzbach



SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Liesje said:


> It's hard because things just happen. Cancer, bloat, some autoimmune issues that crop up later in life....you do all you can but you cannot predict a lot of these things if they don't regularly occur in the lines. Nikon has some health stuff in his lines here or there as well.


Yes, there are these "things" that happen...and had I done my due diligence better I might not have selected the bitch I have as my number one concern was longevity. In my research I just went back to the grandparents and not any further regarding health issues. Perhaps, the notion of "no guarantees" makes us better stewards for our dogs and proceed in a fashion which allows us to appreciate every day we have with our best of friends.

SuperG


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

The puppy I'm getting in March, Berlin Vom Schlossfelsen the mother has Zamp in her pedigree. Never knew he was that popular! 

LONGCOAT GERMAN SHEPHERD FEMALE, BERLIN


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## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Ruby's mom is Rogue Vom Thermodos. Zamp was her grandpa. His DNA is popular. G'ma (dam) was Hanni Von dem Waldgraben. 

Her sire is Dragon Von Ricmor - g'pa was Zico vom Merlin.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I didn't recognize him but I knew he was way to good to be owned as only a pet. He sure is a beautiful dog.

I think the issue with the age is whilst you are using a stud dog you don't plan on the dog dying early. 
I don't think the issue with zamp was the fact he died young it was that his owners never came out and said what happened.
Sure as Zamp's owners this is their decision, however when you have thousands of pups all over the world sired by zamp and they have all paid top dollar then they also have a right to know if there is or may now be a problem they can look out for.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

d4mmo said:


> I didn't recognize him but I knew he was way to good to be owned as only a pet. He sure is a beautiful dog.
> 
> I think the issue with the age is whilst you are using a stud dog you don't plan on the dog dying early.
> I don't think the issue with zamp was the fact he died young it was that his owners never came out and said what happened.
> Sure as Zamp's owners this is their decision, however when you have thousands of pups all over the world sired by zamp and they have all paid top dollar then they also have a right to know if there is or may now be a problem they can look out for.


I never knew they didn't disclose the reason he died.

You do have a valid point if the reason was something which progeny owners could be proactive about....


SuperG


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I also have a Zamp great-grandson. There's good longevity in his lines outside of Zamp, so I'm not too worried. It looks like my pup and Berlin have a lot of dogs in common - he's also a Quenn great grandson. 

Ursus vom Kimberlin-Dey Haus


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

my Nikon is a Quenn grandson (no Zamp though). I far prefer his damline though, that is where his drive and strength come from.
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=699492-altatollhaus-bono


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Liesje said:


> my Nikon is a Quenn grandson (no Zamp though). I far prefer his damline though, that is where his drive and strength come from.
> https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=699492-altatollhaus-bono


Nothing wrong with some Ursus Von Batu blood 4 generations deep on the sire side.


SuperG


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

Lola is Zamp's granddaughter. He was such a gorgeous dog! 

She is also a Quenn great granddaughter.


https://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2108058-altatollhaus-hazel


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SuperG said:


> Nothing wrong with some Ursus Von Batu blood 4 generations deep on the sire side.
> 
> SuperG


No, but I much, much prefer the dam side of the pedigree, wish I could double up on that (and when I get requests for breeding, it's mostly because of the dogs on the "bottom", better temperaments and known for working abilities). I don't really care much for Ursus one way or the other.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

stmcfred said:


> Lola is Zamp's granddaughter. He was such a gorgeous dog!
> 
> She is also a Quenn great granddaughter.
> 
> ...


I remember when Maika was bred to Zamp, that was one of his last breedings, perhaps even his last, before he passed away. I raised Lola's mother for a little while, she was a fun puppy


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Liesje said:


> No, but I much, much prefer the dam side of the pedigree, wish I could double up on that (and when I get requests for breeding, it's mostly because of the dogs on the "bottom", better temperaments and known for working abilities). I don't really care much for Ursus one way or the other.


I am curious about your indifference regarding Ursus...as a VA1 Sieger, Ursus certainly brings some sound structure to the table...especially since it has been a dozen plus years since winning....I have also read much about Ursus's strong "character" as well...I assume that involves some quality temperament ?? I know little of the dog..only what I have read, so that's all I have to go on...

Just curious about your indifference is all.

SuperG


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I didn't know that about Zamp. 

Pretty cool about you raising Ana for a while. I bet she was a great puppy. Lola's pretty fun. Stubborn sometimes, but fun  



Liesje said:


> I remember when Maika was bred to Zamp, that was one of his last breedings, perhaps even his last, before he passed away. I raised Lola's mother for a little while, she was a fun puppy


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SuperG said:


> I am curious about your indifference regarding Ursus...as a VA1 Sieger, Ursus certainly brings some sound structure to the table...especially since it has been a dozen plus years since winning....I have also read much about Ursus's strong "character" as well...I assume that involves some quality temperament ?? I know little of the dog..only what I have read, so that's all I have to go on...
> 
> Just curious about your indifference is all.
> 
> SuperG


In general I am indifferent to VA1 ratings. While I own a show line (and a SL/WL cross) and will likely own others, I am not really a show person. I am looking for a certain temperament and character. A VA rating is not indicative of this. I congratulate those who have achieved this high rating and the amount of work involved, but the rating itself is not something I desire or seek out in pedigrees. Different people have different ideas about what is strong, high drive, sound nerve, etc. I am not saying Ursus is or is not these things, I never met him and I'm not sure if I've closely observed any of his direct offspring, thus my indifference. He could be a nice dog (based on my criteria), or not. Luckily I've had long conversations with people who are more familiar with many of the dogs in my dog's damline going back many many generations and I have also met and had the chance to do some training with the breeder of his sire. I know which aspects of his temperament come from which dogs/lines in his pedigree. I don't think my dog takes after Ursus in structure, there are a few things that dogs closer to Ursus in the pedigree or linebred on him often show and that is not how my dog looks. If we're only considering top show credentials as far as influence, I would say Quenn was more influential there, for better or for worse.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Appreciate the reply and insight. Since I am not a breeder I have not investigated the intricacies which a breeder must, as part of their pursuit towards their goal. I simply rely on the thoroughness of the breeder to produce quality dogs...and so it seems this is your desire. Aesthetics seems to have taken a priority in the evolution of dog breeding, perhaps fueled by the wishes of the consumer...beats me..but I think I have a leg to stand on saying this. I remember coming to this conclusion during my time with my first dog...an Irish setter..a beautiful dog but so far from it's original purposes/abilities which had been basically been bred out of the dog for a more appealing look to influence the trend in dog enthusiasts....I assume the same has happened to all too many breeds over the decades.

Since you lean more toward the working attributes of the breed, coupled with proper drive, temperament and stability...I wonder if in today's world these qualities in the breed are utilized enough to keep this direction alive. Simply put, do working lines GSDs on an overview really "work"? Or is it becoming more difficult for the human to find the proper arena to utilize these innate abilities of a working lines dog?

During my last search for my current GSD, I did investigate the working lines but decided otherwise because I did not want to deprive the dog of it's built in mechanisms. Yes, I know there are many ways which the dog's wiring could be satisfied but I still felt it would be a compromise for the dog and I would hate myself for doing that. I am probably short selling the dog but not being able to facilitate the dog's natural tendencies would be selfish and ignorant on my behalf as well as an injustice to the dog. Those who indulge the characteristics of the working lines dogs are the ones who should have these dogs...


SuperG


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There are plenty of ways to test the traits that should be part of the GSD even "just" doing sport type training. In general I find that those who say dogs that don't work (for their handler's livelihood) can't possibly help us test that are people who don't actually train and title dogs. For those of us that do and do it a lot, you can absolutely learn what you want to know about your dog, what temperament traits he is expressing, where his thresholds are, which drives are primary, etc without actually *being* a shepherd or a law enforcement officer.

My WGSL is my favorite GSD I've owned, trained and titled/competed with including my working lines. It's not as simple as show lines = even keel and working lines = crazy drive. I put a LOT of time and effort into my SL dog from day 1. His littermate who was probably most like him in temperament was put down around 2 years old because he was not handled and trained properly. These were not lazy couch dogs, lol.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Agreed....I believe my selection of a WGSL was the proper choice for me as well as for the welfare of the dog. Energetic, solid drive, temperament..could use a bit more solid nerves however at times...dog complements my lifestyle and physical activity as well. The dog's desire for physical activity is wonderful...it's a win/win...plus she is a born tracker..I really should seek out a venue where she could use this more.

Anyway, thanks for the exchange...I learned from it.


SuperG


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