# Please Help!



## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi,

I haven't been here for a while, but trouble has turned me in this direction. The three trainers we had in mind didn't work. One was sketchy, the other had unsure records, and the third was incredibly expensive. ( this isn't about trainers though) 

And Kias' behavior is not getting better. 

On Thursday our dog sitter (we were on vacation) was given a rude awakening. Kias loves her husband to death, and when she was with him (her husband) for a few minutes Kias got reactive very suddenly. The behavior was aimed in her direction. I'm thinking it was protectiveness, but I'm not sure. He did it again on Friday as they sat together watching TV. He was jumping around, barking, and getting upset overall when she got near her husband. 
My parents think it has to do with the sounds. One time she was getting on a rocking chair (creaking) and the other time she was using a roller (sticky roller thing, it makes a weird sound) on him. But I don't think that's the case, or has anything at all to do with it. 

I've no idea what to do other than correct the behavior as soon as I see it. But the weird thing is that he's never done it with us! Never ever has he been like that around any of my family. 

Also he has taken a swipe at a kid who put his hand out to him. He was fine and wagging his tail until the kid reached his hand out. Then he backed away, and when the kid didn't remove his hand, Kias took a swipe. No harm done thankfully, but it happened so fast and in an area that I didn't want to make a commotion in. So I wasn't able to do anything but bring him out the door as fast as I could. 

I know if that has to do with the hands, because he was fine until the hand came out, and it was obvious he was staring at the hand as he backed away. That time it was reactivity. 

I really need some immediate suggestions on how to go about dealing with the hand thing and the protectiveness please. I'm hoping he won't do the protective thing again, but I'd rather be sure and get some suggestions for what to do when that happens. 

If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please share them. Positive or Negative. 

Thanks guys. 

P.S. I know I'm not probably the most reputable person around here after the whole dominant dog thing I started and how I responded to the comments given. I was trying to do something I wasn't able to do and I made the wrong statement of myself. (More like I made a fool of myself) I'm trying to renew my reputation now and leave that behind. If there are any hard feelings in that direction, I apologize. I was getting to overly confident in this place, so I took a big break. Apologies are aimed at whoever responded to the Dominant Dog thread or any others that I made a fool of myself in.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hey no matter what or who, everyone has made an error in judgement, had an opposing view or overreacted to something. Don't fret, people are on here to help. I don't have experience with this but I would consider training him to a muzzle, he can wear it around others until you have this issue underhand. Best to you!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Just to clarify, it seems you have two issues:


jealousy led to aggressive posturing while his family was out of town
reactive towards kid reaching into his space while out in public. What does 'swipe' mean here (bite, paw, bark)?


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Just to clarify, it seems you have two issues:
> 
> 
> jealousy led to aggressive posturing while his family was out of town
> reactive towards kid reaching into his space while out in public. What does 'swipe' mean here (bite, paw, bark)?


Nip/bite. Not a real hard bite, just more of a nip.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

ksotto333 said:


> Hey no matter what or who, everyone has made an error in judgement, had an opposing view or overreacted to something. Don't fret, people are on here to help. I don't have experience with this but I would consider training him to a muzzle, he can wear it around others until you have this issue underhand. Best to you!


You are right. I really didn't want to muzzle him, but it seems to be the best safety precaution. Does it make people less inclined to approach him if I use a muzzle? I want people to still to approach him so that he can get used to it.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Jealousy-
If you aren’t seeing the reactivity, it would be hard to work on. My boy has moments of jealousy with loved ones. It’s almost like resource guarding. I worked on putting my hand on my husband, then ‘yes’ and treating. Then hugging, ‘yes’ and treating. Then hugging and kissy noises, etc. Baby steps so the dog realizes what to do in those situations. It didn’t take long for him to adjust to it.

Kid reactivity-
I agree with the muzzle idea for now. Did Kias bark or whine at all to show his discomfort? If it were me, I’d really analyze the signs he was giving you before that event. If you really think about it, kids are a strange entity. They move weird and act unpredictably. If the dog is already over stimulated by a new place or too much socialization at once, then a kid would become an easy target because they are so abnormal and don’t follow typical human rules. But it’s really hard to judge from an online post description. More exposure from a distance might help with realizing the kids aren’t a weird alien race but tiny, energetic humans. My boy does great with kids at home but in public, he’s still uncomfortable around them. Playgrounds are a very strange thing to him. Just make sure he’s either muzzled or there is a great distance if you are working on exposure.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

Your dog is only 6 months old right? Kind of normal for pups to go through a bratty stage at that age. What did your dog-sitter do when he was barking at her? If she doesn't tell him off or show authority then of course he won't respect her.

If your dog doesn't like to be approached and touched by strangers then personally I wouldn't encourage people to do that. If he is showing discomfort, backing away, barking / growling etc, then you need to stop it immediately.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> Apologies are aimed at whoever responded to the Dominant Dog thread or any others that I made a fool of myself in.


Thank you for apologizing to the helpful member on the list. Please don't think of yourself as a fool.
1. Internet discussions get heated. That is just the nature of things. Without the face to face signaling of normal conversation, it can be hard to communicate about emotionally charged issues.
2. Dominance theory is a very heated issue. Like many other things in dog training if you put five people in a room... over the course of a 1-hour discussion you will hear ten different opinions.
3. Dominance theory is complicated and quite hard to experimentally prove with scientific rigor.

You did the correct thing in letting the issue drop. Then you continued your learning from another approach with fresh observations about your dog which stimulated fresh questions.

I had a similar issue with my barking out the windows thread. Many people gave sound advice that worked well from their experience. I got frustrated because, after biweekly sessions with my trainer and a followup with my vet, the experiences people were sharing diverged greatly from the recommendations from my local professionals. My outburst was largely directed at myself. As a new GSD owner, I didn't have the knowledge or vocabulary to clearly express myself.

My local professionals have been great for helping me read and understand my dog. This list has been great for helping think about what is going on in the pup's head and why that might be.

As far as the nipping at another kid, I got a "Please ignore me I'm training" Dog vest from Vest (select your size), Please Ignore Me, I'm Training, Light weight service dog style vest, dog vest, dog cape, jacket, in training . Ole can get remain calm while standing right next people... as long as they don't stare at him or reach out a hand to pet the top of his head. To be honest, I would be pretty grumpy if someone I didn't know tried to pat me on the top of my head.

Instead of letting people touch Ole. I ask them to:
1. Kneel down about 5 feet from Ole.
2. Hold their hand out with their palm up about a foot off the ground. No treats in their hand.
3. Then I ask them to say 'touch.' That is the cue I use to have Ole touch my palm with his nose.
4. Ole can make the decision to touch their palm with his nose and receive a treat from me or he can move on. I just say sorry, " It looks like we need to do some more desensitization training." No harm, No foul.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Jealousy-
> If you aren’t seeing the reactivity, it would be hard to work on. My boy has moments of jealousy with loved ones. It’s almost like resource guarding. I worked on putting my hand on my husband, then ‘yes’ and treating. Then hugging, ‘yes’ and treating. Then hugging and kissy noises, etc. Baby steps so the dog realizes what to do in those situations. It didn’t take long for him to adjust to it.
> 
> Kid reactivity-
> I agree with the muzzle idea for now. Did Kias bark or whine at all to show his discomfort? If it were me, I’d really analyze the signs he was giving you before that event. If you really think about it, kids are a strange entity. They move weird and act unpredictably. If the dog is already over stimulated by a new place or too much socialization at once, then a kid would become an easy target because they are so abnormal and don’t follow typical human rules. But it’s really hard to judge from an online post description. More exposure from a distance might help with realizing the kids aren’t a weird alien race but tiny, energetic humans. My boy does great with kids at home but in public, he’s still uncomfortable around them. Playgrounds are a very strange thing to him. Just make sure he’s either muzzled or there is a great distance if you are working on exposure.


He didn't bark or whine, but he backed away and turned his head to the side with his ears flat. I noticed that and I could have caught the kid and pushed his hand away or something, but it happened too fast.



Kari01 said:


> Your dog is only 6 months old right? Kind of normal for pups to go through a bratty stage at that age. What did your dog-sitter do when he was barking at her? If she doesn't tell him off or show authority then of course he won't respect her.
> 
> If your dog doesn't like to be approached and touched by strangers then personally I wouldn't encourage people to do that. If he is showing discomfort, backing away, barking / growling etc, then you need to stop it immediately.


He is 6 months old. I don't think the hand situation was bratty; however, that's possible with the dog sitter. I don't know what she did, but I know her to be pretty firm with her dog and Kias and I don't think she ignored the situation. I do think she corrected him, but I will ask her and find out what she did. 

He was frightened when the kid put his hand out. The reactivity is based on when people get into his space, make eye contact with him or me, or talk to either one of us.

I agree he shouldn't be touched by strangers on a regular basis, but I don't want a dog that is growling and barking at people whenever we walk past them. Do you have any ways that I could do that without getting people around him too much?

I was thinking of maybe having my brother run ahead and ask a person coming toward us to give him a treat as they go past, and maybe putting their hand out really slowly with the treat in it when they come up. 



davewis said:


> Thank you for apologizing to the helpful member on the list. Please don't think of yourself as a fool.
> 1. Internet discussions get heated. That is just the nature of things. Without the face to face signaling of normal conversation, it can be hard to communicate about emotionally charged issues.
> 2. Dominance theory is a very heated issue. Like many other things in dog training if you put five people in a room... over the course of a 1-hour discussion you will hear ten different opinions.
> 3. Dominance theory is complicated and quite hard to experimentally prove with scientific rigor.
> ...


Thanks for that Dave. That's so true.

About Kias; good plan. I could definitely try that. The only problem is that I know and have a lot of kids coming to my house frequently that are young and want, of course, to touch the doggie all over. I guess he just needs to be in his crate for that.

He has a very similar reaction as Ole. He could go through a crowd if asked, just when people start actually coming near his space and making eye contact or touching him, then it is a whole different ballgame.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kathryn,
First of all, I've had and/or been around German Shepherds since I was born (that's over 40 years) and I'm still learning. I don't claim to know everything and I've sought advice on here as you know. Every dog is different and everyone has their own way of feeding, training, and dealing with issues. Not every bit of advice is helpful. That being said, first of all I would tell people you come in contact with to ignore Kias, especially kids. They should not look at him or attempt to touch him until he demonstrates that he is ready for it. A lot of people just don't read the signs. Crating him when people are over is a good idea. Second, I don't think a lot of people on here realize(d) you are a kid. A very intelligent kid, but one nonetheless. I know I didn't at first. So, at least in my opinion, that should be enough for people to forgive and forget on here and move on!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's not a good idea for people to offer him treats,their hands,or to focus on him at all.It tends to make an uncomfortable dog even more uncomfortable.His focus should remain on you.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

davewis said:


> Thank you for apologizing to the helpful member on the list. Please don't think of yourself as a fool.
> 1. Internet discussions get heated. That is just the nature of things. Without the face to face signaling of normal conversation, it can be hard to communicate about emotionally charged issues.
> 2. Dominance theory is a very heated issue. Like many other things in dog training if you put five people in a room... over the course of a 1-hour discussion you will hear ten different opinions.
> 3. Dominance theory is complicated and quite hard to experimentally prove with scientific rigor.
> ...



Asking people to kneel down in front of a dog who has tried to bite someone could result in a bite to the face, and could also result in more direct eye contact between stranger and dog. Just a thought. I don't know what Ole's issues are but for OP, I wouldn't do this


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

When it comes to strangers, I suggest they ignore the dog and not expect to be able to pat it. Many of us don't allow strangers to touch our dogs without very good reason (vet, groomer, trainer, etc). 
At 6 months old your pup is going to need clear structure. They are adolescent and will try all kinds of things to try and figure out their place in the world. A face to face trainer / mentor will be very valuable to you. Trying to solve these things with just a paragraph of text won't be that helpful. 
Personally I'd say much less freedom for the dog and a good few months of Nothing In Life Is Free.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

dogma13 said:


> It's not a good idea for people to offer him treats,their hands,or to focus on him at all.It tends to make an uncomfortable dog even more uncomfortable.His focus should remain on you.


The other possible outcome is the dog is food motivated enough to go past his comfort zone to get the food, then he eats the food and is too close to the person and feels bad and/or growls/bites.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't know what Ole's issues are but for OP, I wouldn't do this


Agreed, all I can speak to is that this works for us. Talk to a behaviorist who can help you figure out what works for you.

This works for Ole because we have been on a pretty intense socialization program for the last several weeks. He has become very comfortable walking around people who ignore him. His reactivity is 90% habit and 10% genuine fear at this point. He genuinely reacted with fear to a little blond lady with big sunglasses this morning 

I think the 5-foot kneel-touch routine works for us because:
1. I only do this with Ole on a leash in a situation where I feel that I have complete control over the interaction.

2. The stranger and I have had several seconds of friendly dialog outside of Ole's 5-foot threshold. While this is happening I am watching Ole's body language to make sure that he is neutral or slightly interested. I watch the other person to make sure that they are calm and not making rapid movements or staring at Ole directly. This slows everything down so that I have time to assess everyone's body language. If something doesn't feel comfortable I abort the greeting by saying "Sorry, it looks like I need more time before he can greet you."

3. I ask them to knell down on one knee about 5 feet away. It works best if they position themselves at about a 45-degree angle to Ole and they focus their eyes on me while I am talking to them. This keeps them outside of the 5-foot threshold I have experimentally determine with this particular dog. Being on one knee means that they can't move forward by accident. The closest they can move their hand towards the dog is two feet. This gives me several more seconds to assess Ole's reaction under controlled circumstances. If something doesn't feel comfortable I abort the greeting by saying "Sorry, it looks like I need more time before he can greet you."

4. I ask the person to use the cue 'touch' to invite Ole to touch their hand. I use the word touch because I have spent hours loading it with positive associations. I use touch as a recall cue for Ole to run across the room to touch my palm for a reward or the start of a play session.

5. It works for us because the final decision to approach the stranger is Ole's. The person has offered a routine of behaviors that Ole accepts as a friendly yet unintrusive greeting from a stranger. Ole can accept the overture or walk away. I let Ole think for 2-3 seconds if he doesn't respond to the person 'touch' cue. I abort the greeting by saying "Sorry, it looks like I need more time before he can greet you." If he touches the person's palm with his nose he can quickly take a step back and receive a reward from me.

About 90% of the time after a touch, he returns to my side. About 10% of the time he goes back to the person for an ear rub.

This only works with adults for us. Small children squeak and jump around in an unpredictable manner. We are still desensitizing to them by walking around a local elementary school at recess. We started walking across the road from the school. Now we can walk on the sidewalk on the same side of the street as the school.... But there is still a fence between us and the kids for safety. Ole shows much more interest in the balls the kids are playing with than the kids themselves.

Teens are probably somewhere in the middle.

As others have warned this is not just a matter of naively putting a person in a less threatening position and hoping for the best. It is a controlled process that we have slowly built which works for us.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

re Meeting Others:
I want to echo others in saying that my dog (although not pure shep!) has a very shephard attitude towards strangers. He has no desire to be touched by them, or even to get to know them. He will stand aloofly by my side. He is 100% calm and silent so long as people don't mess with him, so that's what we do.

My friends know not to pet him (although he does accept them after several encounters, I still don't let them pet on the head). When kids and strangers ask, I apologetically say, "I'm sorry, but my dog is not good with strangers." That, combined with continuing to walk briskly, gets the message across. Before I learned to handle this, we had some nasty scary encounters...he growled and snapped at a client who scritched his ears, at a neighbor who wiggled fingers in front of his nose playfully, and a teenage boy who petted him on the head in passing. I learned my lesson. Although I could train and work on this issue, I am not very motivated... Clearly Rumo has no interest in being friendly with people outside of his "pack" and I'm OK with that. With us he is like a big fluffy teddy bear, rolling on his back and waving his paw for tummy rubs. I want to add that I don't think of him as dangerous...he is out and about a lot with me...going to pet store to buy chewies, lying at coffee shop, and today we are meeting a friend for a walk in the woods. I can bring him anywhere, he is well-behaved as you would want any dog to be - so long as it's "hands off" from the strangers.

re Reaction with Dogsitter:
You may just have to bite the bullet and kennel him when you are away, in the kind of place where there isn't a lot of dog/dog or people/dog interaction. So long as they keep him safe and fed, he should be ok...
I also like the idea of NILF and training and being somewhat strict with him to nip his "attitude" in the bud.

Sorry it's been such a bumpy ride with your pup!

PS I wanted to add that once the "don't pet" policy went into effect, my dog (who used to growl/bark at joggers or people who got too close) calmed down a lot. He has gone by within inches of people's legs, no problem. People become more like background scenery to them because they don't pose the threat of an uncomfortable encounter. At least that's been my experience with this dog.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

buddyr93 said:


> Kathryn,
> First of all, I've had and/or been around German Shepherds since I was born (that's over 40 years) and I'm still learning. I don't claim to know everything and I've sought advice on here as you know. Every dog is different and everyone has their own way of feeding, training, and dealing with issues. Not every bit of advice is helpful. That being said, first of all I would tell people you come in contact with to ignore Kias, especially kids. They should not look at him or attempt to touch him until he demonstrates that he is ready for it. A lot of people just don't read the signs. Crating him when people are over is a good idea. Second, I don't think a lot of people on here realize(d) you are a kid. A very intelligent kid, but one nonetheless. I know I didn't at first. So, at least in my opinion, that should be enough for people to forgive and forget on here and move on!





GSDchoice said:


> re Meeting Others:
> I want to echo others in saying that my dog (although not pure shep!) has a very shephard attitude towards strangers. He has no desire to be touched by them, or even to get to know them. He will stand aloofly by my side. He is 100% calm and silent so long as people don't mess with him, so that's what we do.
> 
> My friends know not to pet him (although he does accept them after several encounters, I still don't let them pet on the head). When kids and strangers ask, I apologetically say, "I'm sorry, but my dog is not good with strangers." That, combined with continuing to walk briskly, gets the message across. Before I learned to handle this, we had some nasty scary encounters...he growled and snapped at a client who scritched his ears, at a neighbor who wiggled fingers in front of his nose playfully, and a teenage boy who petted him on the head in passing. I learned my lesson. Although I could train and work on this issue, I am not very motivated... Clearly Rumo has no interest in being friendly with people outside of his "pack" and I'm OK with that. With us he is like a big fluffy teddy bear, rolling on his back and waving his paw for tummy rubs. I want to add that I don't think of him as dangerous...he is out and about a lot with me...going to pet store to buy chewies, lying at coffee shop, and today we are meeting a friend for a walk in the woods. I can bring him anywhere, he is well-behaved as you would want any dog to be - so long as it's "hands off" from the strangers.
> ...


Thanks for the advice everybody. 

@GSDchoice My parents do want him to be petted if someone asks, so I will have to talk to them about that. I never really wanted him to be loved on by strangers in the first place, but I want him to be tolerable of them at least.
What is NILF?

@buddyr93 Thanks. I will do the crate idea for sure when my cousins come over. (two toddlers and a preteen) And I will go with the no-petting as well, though that might take family convincing. 
Yah, since everybody knows by now, I'm a teen. Thanks for forgiving and forgetting. That's nice to know. 




car2ner said:


> When it comes to strangers, I suggest they ignore the dog and not expect to be able to pat it. Many of us don't allow strangers to touch our dogs without very good reason (vet, groomer, trainer, etc).
> At 6 months old your pup is going to need clear structure. They are adolescent and will try all kinds of things to try and figure out their place in the world. A face to face trainer / mentor will be very valuable to you. Trying to solve these things with just a paragraph of text won't be that helpful.
> Personally I'd say much less freedom for the dog and a good few months of Nothing In Life Is Free.


Less freedom is a good idea. I do let him be more casual on our walks usually and he's out when he's with his sitter 24/7, so that will be good for him. He hasn't shown any 6 month teenager bratty stuff yet, so I'm hoping he might not catch the teenager disease. But it's pretty inevitable.
I am actively searching for trainers as well. I'm down to 1 who I have to call, but hopefully I can work something out.


One more question for everybody: Any suggestions for introducing the muzzle? Should I do it the same way I would the gentle leader?


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I guess I am lucky with Lexie, she is 6 m.o as well but when she gets bratty, mainly annoying a cat I tell her that I am going to put a muzzle on her and get one of my daughter’s scranchies and she stops right away and lays down with that pathetic face. 
But when I used to live in a city when using a public transport with a dog, a dog always had to have a muzzle. And I don’t remember any problems with any of my dogs back then ( Danes and G. Schnauzers) you just start easy.. a few minutes, distract him if he’ll try to take it off.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi Kathrynil,

NILF = "nothing in life is free" training (for example, making them Sit before dinner and be released to eat. Having them wait and not just run out an open door. I used to do this but am very lax lately.)

for Muzzle - my dog had a pre-conditioned Hatred of them. it took me a long time to train him to it...I began with poking thinly cut "cheese french fries" through the front of the Muzzle and saying "Nose!" as he put his nose in to eat the cheese. Then, cheese in other hand and I hold muzzle on his face for few seconds before giving the cheese. Then, latch muzzle...leave it on for a short walk. After that, the game was won. At vet's office, I say "Nose!" and he puts his nose in, I fasten it, give him a few bits of cheese. No battle or chasing him around the room (it used be like that in the first few vet visits, with him running back and forth and then tossing his head around and growling and snapping while they tried to put the muzzle on.) There are many videos on "muzzle training" online, I watched a couple to learn how to do it! 

for Petting - I understand how your parents feel. I used to have the friendliest dog in the world who would stand up by the fence and happily lick the hands and faces of passing schoolchildren. However, I have been able to adjust my mindset that this dog is very different and I shouldn't expect that of him. I think every dog should be understood and accepted for who they are (like, people


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

You really need to find a trainer who can evaluate your dog in person. Advice on the internet are limited in that 1-you don't know what actually real life experience they have or don't have, 2- you may not be noticing or improperly interpreting what you are seeing. 

Aggression is tricky and is not something you should be addressing via advice from the internet, the end result could be someone being badly bit. Your dog has now snapped at a child, that was a warning. Next time it may be a full on bite with the intent to do harm. You should also contact your puppy's breeder and alert them to the behaviors you are seeing, they may be able to recommend a trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Trainer. Your parents need to pay the money and get a good trainer. If this behavior is starting at 6 months old, you are going to have real issues as he matures. You do not have to go to training every week. You can go every 3 weeks and still make good progress. And I highly advise you contact your breeder (who IS a member of this board and was just on here recently). 

Forcing a dog that does not want to be petted is just a recipe for disaster. Dogs are not public property and strangers do not have a right to pet them. Your parents did not buy a dog that was born to be a social butterfly. It's just not his genetics. It's wrong to force that and really just kind of mean to do so because it will only cause him stress. He DOES need to be neutral around them. That should be your goal. 

All of this is so far above your pay grade and putting this on you is not right or fair.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Bramble said:


> You really need to find a trainer who can evaluate your dog in person. Advice on the internet are limited in that 1-you don't know what actually real life experience they have or don't have, 2- you may not be noticing or improperly interpreting what you are seeing.
> 
> Aggression is tricky and is not something you should be addressing via advice from the internet, the end result could be someone being badly bit. Your dog has now snapped at a child, that was a warning. Next time it may be a full on bite with the intent to do harm. You should also contact your puppy's breeder and alert them to the behaviors you are seeing, they may be able to recommend a trainer.






Jax08 said:


> Trainer. Your parents need to pay the money and get a good trainer. If this behavior is starting at 6 months old, you are going to have real issues as he matures. You do not have to go to training every week. You can go every 3 weeks and still make good progress. And I highly advise you contact your breeder (who IS a member of this board and was just on here recently).
> 
> Forcing a dog that does not want to be petted is just a recipe for disaster. Dogs are not public property and strangers do not have a right to pet them. Your parents did not buy a dog that was born to be a social butterfly. It's just not his genetics. It's wrong to force that and really just kind of mean to do so because it will only cause him stress. He DOES need to be neutral around them. That should be your goal.
> 
> All of this is so far above your pay grade and putting this on you is not right or fair.


Thank you both for the advice. I am actively searching for a trainer. I'm waiting right now for a response from one I have contacted. My dad has contacted our older dog's breeder for trainer recommendations. (Let me clarify that my parents are definitely willing to pay if I can just find someone.) Yes, it will probably be every 2-3 weeks at a time if we work something out. 
You're right about neutral. That's what I was hoping to get from him at the least.

The behavior sadly didn't start at 6 months. The thing is, with him being sick and all, that he didn't get the proper socialization he should have gotten. He should have been going everywhere when he was little. (Of course not overdoing it) It was my fault he didn't. Now I have to fix this problem. I do think I will be getting a good basket muzzle for safety precautions. It will take a bit if stress away if I can get him to like it. I will also be trying to take walks into town everyday. Hopefully that may do a bit if help. 

What should I do when he starts growling as he approaches a person? (say someone is walking past) I've heard that the best thing to start with is turn and go in the other direction. Is that a good plan? 

@Jax08 I am also calling that club you recommended today. What is the username of my breeder? I didn't know she was on here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's not a reason. That's an excuse. My dogs were raised in the winter with almost no socialization and they do not behave like this. Don't get wrapped up in thinking early socialization is a cure all and this is all your fault. This is genetics and training. Neither of which you should have be held responsible for nor should you be responsible for fixing it solely on your own.

Did you call Carlos? The first trainer I recommended to you? He would be worth the 40 minute drive and I doubt he would charge a fortune. He actively works and titles his dogs in IGP. He trains with the club I told you to contact. I know him, his dogs and his methods. 





Dog Training, Pet Sitting - Carlos Correia - Rocky Hill, Ct


Dog training, Dog walking, Pet sitting, & in ground dog fence. in the rocky hill area. contact us for a complimentary consultation 2035685407 coaching 4 paws



www.coaching4paws.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kathrynil said:


> @Jax08 I am also calling that club you recommended today. What is the username of my breeder? I didn't know she was on here.


Sending a PM


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This should be a mantra. It is not how they are raised. It is genetics and training and.... genetics! 

Go see a trainer, and work from there.


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## Yankovich (Feb 20, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> Hi,
> I haven't been here for a while, but trouble has turned me in this direction. The three trainers we had in mind didn't work. One was sketchy, the other had unsure records, and the third was incredibly expensive. ( this isn't about trainers though)
> 
> And Kias' behavior is not getting better.
> ...


Hi Kathrynil,

This is in response with the “sticky roller thing”. If you were referring to the roller tape lint remover, my pup goes berserk when I am using it. He hates it and “attacks” it and will grab it away from my hand. He hates anything that makes the similar sound and will go nuts when he hears me using something like it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Your dog's behavior has nothing to do with dominance. Dominant dogs are not fearful. You are simply seeing fear and insecurity and all you will be able to do is mask it and manage it. I wouldn't say your dog snapping was a warning. He was afraid and too afraid to actually bite because he wasn't put into a situation that he couldn't escape. He was displaying weak, passive defensive aggression and was trying to make the perceived threat go away.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Your dog's behavior has nothing to do with dominance. Dominant dogs are not fearful. You are simply seeing fear and insecurity and all you will be able to do is mask it and manage it. I wouldn't say your dog snapping was a warning. He was afraid and too afraid to actually bite because he wasn't put into a situation that he couldn't escape. He was displaying weak, passive defensive aggression and was trying to make the perceived threat go away.


I don't think he is dominant at all, and like I said, I want to get past the whole dominance thread. I didn't say anything about him being dominant in my original post. This has nothing to do with it. 

I agree he was very fearful; I never should have brought him into a situation like that. (he was inside a building beside the door and there were like three people around me and him. It was a stressful situation for him, one that he's never experienced. I don't think he would have reacted that way if he had been calmer.) He is suspicious of things, and that was just the case at first, but the fearfulness was fully because the kid put his hand out. He wouldn't have snapped if the kid hadn't put his hand out. 

Thanks for your help, hopefully I can get a trainer's help soon as well. I've got a couple trainers that I'm going to be setting up appointments with. 



Yankovich said:


> Hi Kathrynil,
> 
> This is in response with the “sticky roller thing”. If you were referring to the roller tape lint remover, my pup goes berserk when I am using it. He hates it and “attacks” it and will grab it away from my hand. He hates anything that makes the similar sound and will go nuts when he hears me using something like it.


 Yah, I would understand. They do make a weird sound, those lint rollers. But I don't think that was the problem for Kias this time, since he had the same response when the lint roller wasn't present. I think it has to do with the dog sitter and her husband and maybe has some jealously(?) included, as someone said before. 
But thanks for helping!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If your dog had been calmer, less fearful and suspicious, he wouldn't be your dog. It is a temperament issue.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

As much as I love dogs, I would NEVER approach one I did not know just out of nowhere. No stranger should. I ask the owner if it's okay, and I offer a hand, palm up and say 'hi' in a friendly voice. If the dog chooses to respond, great. If not, it's okay, too. I remember being in Home Depot one time and talking to an apron I suddenly felt a bump on my rear. I turned around to see a German Shepherd looking up at me, so I greeted him or her. Nice dog. Another time I was in Petsmart and a young man was struggling with his GS trying to get it to sit. So I asked him if I could show him something and he agreed, so I greeted the dog and showed him the head up, rear down maneuver. No one had ever showed him that. But aggressively confront a strange dog - I'm not THAT crazy. And people who do should not be around dogs. Those are the ones that get bit. It is NOT the dog's fault some people think he's a toy.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Buckelke said:


> As much as I love dogs, I would NEVER approach one I did not know just out of nowhere. No stranger should. I ask the owner if it's okay, and I offer a hand, palm up and say 'hi' in a friendly voice. If the dog chooses to respond, great. If not, it's okay, too. I remember being in Home Depot one time and talking to an apron I suddenly felt a bump on my rear. I turned around to see a German Shepherd looking up at me, so I greeted him or her. Nice dog. Another time I was in Petsmart and a young man was struggling with his GS trying to get it to sit. So I asked him if I could show him something and he agreed, so I greeted the dog and showed him the head up, rear down maneuver. No one had ever showed him that. But aggressively confront a strange dog - I'm not THAT crazy. And people who do should not be around dogs. Those are the ones that get bit. It is NOT the dog's fault some people think he's a toy.


I totally agree. Well put.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Buckelke,
She said the dog was fearful and stressed just being around strangers and afraid when a child put his hand out. A child should not be expected to have the same mindset as an adult with some experience with dogs.It may not be the dog's fault, but it is a significant temperament fault that the breed is plagued with. It might be possible to raise the dog's threshold for fear and stress, but under significant stress, the dog will revert to his genetic baseline. This is different than a dog that is not so genetically nervy and is able to work through truly stressful situations with good training.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip - you are assuming all of this based on the description made by a young teen with very little experience. The dog may be nervy. The dog may also be misread. She's contacted good trainers in her area so maybe it's time to stop guessing and let her have the dog evaluated in person.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It shouldn't be hard for a young teen to determine her dog was afraid over a child putting his hand out and not much guess work is involved.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, having raised kids and dogs of different temperaments, I can state with absolute confidence from experience, there are a lot of things you have to just show them. Not everything follows what you can quote from a textbook or article.


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## 491654 (Jan 20, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't been here for a while, but trouble has turned me in this direction. The three trainers we had in mind didn't work. One was sketchy, the other had unsure records, and the third was incredibly expensive. ( this isn't about trainers though)
> 
> ...





Kathrynil said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't been here for a while, but trouble has turned me in this direction. The three trainers we had in mind didn't work. One was sketchy, the other had unsure records, and the third was incredibly expensive. ( this isn't about trainers though)
> 
> ...



I'm a dog trainer myself, so I'm going to ask a few questions 

1. Was your dog a rescue?

2. Is there any history of some one striking the dog with their hand?
3. Has the dog been well socialized including being around small children?

3. This sounds like fear aggression response to me. Your dog attempted to flee the situation with the child, which is both a good and a bad thing. It could be a combination of a fear response to the hand it's self or the child in general.
4. Is your dog neutered?

As far as him feeling the need to "protect" the husband. That is also a fear based response, he feels no one is controlling the situation, so in attempt to reduce his anxiety he reacts. Scared dogs react. Aggressive dogs calculate an attack without provocation, keep in mind most dogs aren't aggressive, they are anxious and afraid, teeth are an incredible way in their mind to control a situation and get whatever it is the are fearful and anxious about to go away. 


Hope this helps.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Tripp's mom said:


> I'm a dog trainer myself, so I'm going to ask a few questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Those are good questions to ask in a situation like this.
1. No
2. No.
3. No.
4(3). It was a fear response to the kid's hand. It was stressful situation he wasn't ready for.
5. No. He is much too young.
I do think it was fear, but I really don't know. I'm going to use a trainer to make sure. Thanks for helping!




Chip Blasiole said:


> It shouldn't be hard for a young teen to determine her dog was afraid over a child putting his hand out and not much guess work is involved.


It wasn't hard and I have determined it. But I may be completely wrong on everything. So I am going to get a personal evaluation from a trainer to be sure, then I can take action to address the problem with the trainer's help.



Steve Strom said:


> Lol, having raised kids and dogs of different temperaments, I can state with absolute confidence from experience, there are a lot of things you have to just show them. Not everything follows what you can quote from a textbook or article.


Heh, You just stated something I've thought too many times. This is one of the reasons I didn't want to buy the courses online. However, the reason I need a trainer is to determine if my theory is correct. (Mostly because I am not in the position to do so myself.)


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## 491654 (Jan 20, 2020)

I think a good reputable trainer that knows how to address fear based aggression is a great idea! Just make sure they use positive reinforcement! Your dog needs to learn to associate the things that cause him anxiety with good things happening, such a treats or a favorite toy.

While looking for a trainer I suggest you start positive reinforcement training. Any time he meets some one new, adult, child give a a tasty treat, such a cooked chicken breast or something he doesn't usually get, this treat is to build that positive association between that delicious treat and this new person, have this new person throw him a piece, NOT hand it to him, just toss it to him, when he is eating the treat back it up with an enthusiastic good boy. The new person must NOT interact with him outside of throwing that treat! No pets, no eye contact, just throw him something tasty and keep going. When I'm working with these dogs I carry a treat bag with me or you can even put a sign on your door asking them to grab a treat before they come in. Breaking fear based aggression isn't easy and it takes time and ALOt of patience and repetition. Good luck with your fur kiddo! I'm here if you need anything.


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