# Critique of a non-shepherd for working structure?



## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

I am interested in a puppy from a certain pairing of a non-german shepherd breed, and was wondering a bit more about their conformation for work, specifically for agility and herding. 

However, I don't know where to ask, so I was thinking some people in this forum may be able to help with telling me a little about the dogs conformation, with a look at the rear angulation as I am worried there isn't enough and I am not sure exactly how this will impact the dogs speed. 

If this is ok and I am allowed, I will try to post some images of the parents in a stack. 

Sorry if this is not OK, I am just unsure of where else I could ask, and thought it was worth a shot asking here.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If you're wanting to do herding, is it a herding breed? Do the parents herd? Herding is an instinct, not all have it. I did herding with my rough collie. We did an instinct trial and of 42 rough collies of show lines and one pet line, only two passed, mine of show lines and the pet line one. I knew I wanted to do herding and went to that line when I was looking for my rough collie.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@Deb, the parents are active herding dogs. The father works cattle and pigs, the mother works sheep and goats. The breeder has a farm, and has both herding dogs and livestock guardians. 

Here are some videos of the father(black dog) working the breeder sent me, so if you have any critiques of the dog working, I really want to hear:
https://www.facebook.com/marki.klara/videos/1479529558739567/
https://www.facebook.com/marki.klara/videos/1479437722082084/
https://www.facebook.com/marki.klara/videos/1479600588732464/

Unfortunately most breeders do not work their dogs, and all the working dogs are owned by farmers in the native country and aren't registered, so I would not be able to find them easily, so I don't have much choice. 

And since I am sharing videos, here are some pics of the mother:
https://postimg.org/gallery/1x7gwwgqy/

And some pics of the father:
https://postimg.org/gallery/lv4aovre/

Again, I am really sorry if this is not allowed!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

What breed is this?


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

Hungarian Mudi. 
Relative to the Pumi and Puli


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I just looked it up!


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

Yeah, I really like the breed and its temperament!

However some mudi, especially the dogs in hungary, seem to have little rear angulation? 
In poland there seems to be more angulation in mudi, but this litter I am interested in doesn't seem to have the best angulation. 

I am worried this may be a problem and will affect the speed for work and sports. I'm just not sure how much it would? Do you think it could impact the dog a lot, or not hinder the dog much at all?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I looked at Mudi some 15 years ago .

I like them ! 

there was only one breeder in Canada - and I don't believe they had much or any interest in working .

attraction of the exotic I guess.

they can be a little sharp -- but good dogs


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Mudi's are very interesting dogs and able to do an amazing amount of activities. They're every intelligent and can be a handful! They were next to us at a Meet the Breeds in Oklahoma one year. I had some great conversations with the breeders/owners that were there. If you want to do herding and agility, this is a breed that can do it. This is a breed that has primarily only been bred for herding until just recently, so only the best of the herding dogs were bred. They are amazingly agile and fast. The structure needed for herding has to be good to be able to work all day, make fast turns and be sound. Any dog that couldn't do that wouldn't be bred by the farmers. Their dogs are working dogs, if they can't work they don't stay. They aren't bred.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@carmspack

Not really attraction to the exotic to me, they look really plain lol imo. 

Would be hard to describe, but I love this part of the mudis temperament:









On that note, I absolutely adore breeds such as schipperke, but their ability to be off leash leaves a lot to be desired, same with terriers and spaniels. 
My sisters working cocker spaniel is actually the most fun dog to train I have ever played with, similar temperament to a mudi, except their strong desire to use their nose was not very fun. 
Basically, I really like the breed. Not just for that type of temperament, those videos are just examples  

But yeah, been planning on getting one for over a year now.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@Deb
You would be surprised how quickly some mudi have lost their herding ability! 





They were only recognized in 1936, and still have an open studbook to allow unregistered dogs on farms to enter the breed, but its still surprising how much their instinct varies in show lines.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

reminds me a lot of a Croatian sheepdog. Croatia and Hungary share a border and used to be part of the same empire so Im sure the dog are closely related. If the mudi does not work out perhaps you could try a CS.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@girardid 
Yeah, they are the same breed! The croatian shepherds breed standard allows for a slightly taller dog, but only black is allowed.

There is actually a third type if this same breed, called the "Pulin", found in the balkans. 
Pulin

Though the Pulin is not recognized yet. 
They are actually all the same breed, but they are recognized differently because they exist in different countries. 

Croatian Shepherds seem to have more rear angulation, and in their croatian sheepdog championships they include Protection as one of the competitions. 





However, it is near impossible to find a croation sheepdog breeder compared to mudi... 

Though I know a few people I could talk to, Polona Bonac is very nice, and Malwich is a well known kennel that bred croatian sheepdogs in the past, so if I were interested in getting one, I have people I can ask who may be able to lead me to a good croatian sheepdog breeder. 

But I am looking at mudi breeders at the moment. I know almost all the breeders of the breed, and I have connections with breeders


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

CiElBie said:


> @*Deb*
> You would be surprised how quickly some mudi have lost their herding ability!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZBA4va2QGA
> 
> They were only recognized in 1936, and still have an open studbook to allow unregistered dogs on farms to enter the breed, but its still surprising how much their instinct varies in show lines.


It took him a bit to engage, but then he was all into it. He's five months old and it looks like the first time he's seen sheep. I've been there, running backwards trying not to be run over by the sheep! *G* They can leave you black and blue.


Yes, show lines can be very different. If you're looking into lines where the parents are still working, then you should be all right. They're still FSS but they are having their National *Saturday, October 1, 2016*
CreekWind Farm
1528 East 675 North, Shelbyville IN 46176


That would be a great place to talk to people about them. Unfortunately it's this weekend.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@Deb

Yeah, but that was atypical for the breed. They usually have a lot of instinct.

even little ones like this are having a go xD


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

I don't live in the US, so sadly I cannot visit, but it would be fun!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Yes, it is much younger normally. Makes me wonder if the first had had any exposure at all to sheep. Personally, I like to see the exuberance like the younger puppy. The first one would have passed an instinct test. I guess I got used to seeing show lines that couldn't pass it at all. No interest no matter what in the sheep. I think you're going to have fun! I miss herding.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

The first probably hasn't seen sheep before. It really would have passed the instinct test? Guess they are not very strict... 

The puppy was from a very good breeder who also trials and works his dogs. The father has a B pedigree, and the mother came from 2 B registered parents, so very close to the farm. 

Here are two mudik seeing sheep for the first time:





This one here is directly from show lines: 





I am certainly going to have fun  
Though they are a breed with no eye. Their method for herding can be very different to a border collie...

Like so: 





Hmmm.... Some have totally different techniques than others, I don't know how it will turn out  
I really wonder. 
Mudi are called the "driver dogs of hungary".

Oh dear, gone a little crazy with the videos here, sorry! -.-


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

LOL! I loved seeing the videos. Herding Instinct Tests allow the dogs a maximum of ten minutes to show interest in the sheep. The first dog did in about four minutes, not so bad for a young dog who has not seen sheep before. The first few minutes showed a young dog who was not sure of his surroundings, looking to his owner for confirmation and reassurance. It would be interesting to know if this dog had been living in a city or country environment prior to the test. That was an instinct test by watching it. He goes in on a lead and stays that way until he starts to show some interest, at that time the leash is dropped to allow him to move around the sheep and see his response.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

CiElBie said:


> I am interested in a puppy from a certain pairing of a non-german shepherd breed, and was wondering a bit more about their conformation for work, specifically for agility and herding.
> 
> However, I don't know where to ask, so I was thinking some people in this forum may be able to help with telling me a little about the dogs conformation, with a look at the rear angulation as I am worried there isn't enough and I am not sure exactly how this will impact the dogs speed.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting thread, I've yet to come across a mudi but those videos are neat to watch. In the last video you posted (the one with the bridge), that dog works and moves a lot like a Bouvier that we see often at training.

Some of the more speedy and agile dogs I've seen on livestock include Australian Cattle Dogs, with _significantly_ less rear angulation, some appear to have hardly any at all - very straight/steep (I may be using incorrect conformation terminology, forgive me). There are some drastic differences across the different breeds. If the studbook is still open on mudi, there might be some pretty significant diversity within the breed itself, too? 

There's a group on Facebook ("Structure in Motion", I believe) that may be able to provide you with some more opinions.


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## CiElBie (Mar 6, 2016)

@Deb
I have actually spoken with the owner of the dog in the video herself who also breeds her mudi, and she said that he didn't show much ability on sheep herself...
But yeah, I guess its not too bad. 

@WIBackpacker

Thats interesting 
Do you know of any good videos of bouvier working, I'd love to see one! 

Huh, I wonder how rear angulation affects the dogs then... 
I don't know much about structure at all, so I can't tell. My hope is that it doesn't have a huge effect. 

Its interesting because some polish Mudi have more rear angulation than the hungarian show mudi. 
There is a ton of diversity within the breed in terms of genetics wise, I think they are the 10th most diverse breed? They don't have any health issues either.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

CiElBie said:


> @WIBackpacker
> 
> Thats interesting
> Do you know of any good videos of bouvier working, I'd love to see one!
> ...


I did some searching and didn't come across too many online, here's one where you can see a little bit of style/movement. 






Most of the people that I see regularly own border collies, I'd love to hear a good in-person conversation about angulation across different breeds.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I tried to find you some articles to help you.


Helen King on Structure Evaluation | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


https://books.google.com/books?id=a...ine rear angulation and herding sheep&f=false


http://leerburg.com/2-3-12PerfPuppy-Sample.pdf


http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/9781118541463_sample_413722.pdf Scroll down past halfway and it really explains rear angulation and front assembly and how it applies to canine sports


http://pennvetwdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/9-Zink.pdf


https://books.google.com/books?id=J...e&q=canine rear angulation and sports&f=false


The Pumi’s tools are barking, quick movement, and an occasional nip if needed. In order to move and turn quickly, the Pumi must have a moderately angulated front and rear, with the shoulder and upper arm about equal in length. The croup and pelvis are short, allowing them to power off their rear to turn quickly and sharply. (rather then give you the whole link to get to what they say.)


Hope this helps.
Deb


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