# table training



## carmspack

I admit to not knowing much about table training , so , inspired by this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/452162-dogs-nerves.html

went on a discovery route.
my experience with a table was for teaching a dog "positions" so that the dog didn't creep forward .

I can see the benefits of the round table for prey agitation , handler present - nothing worse for the decoy than to have some handler who doesn't post , who keeps drifting closer and closer .

Here is what we have , Gene England who is credited with developing this as a training aide Building a bond - Bowling Green Daily News: Local News

then this dog being worked , clearly overwrought . What happened prior to the tape . Was the decoy good . Was it necessary to prolong the dogs distress . Could the decoy properly read the dog . Should the decoy have given the dog some power over the situation by moving back ? Should the chain have been longer to allow the dog to move forward more ? Was the dogs action training failures, genetics , a mix of both?
Why select this tape to show a dog as strong -- once again down to reading and understanding a dog. 
http://databasepedigree.com/videos/510/bruno-vom-wallensener-hof

My concern , as stated in the England link is that every one is sort of inventing their own versions of tables and unskilled weakend warrior type (my words) helpers are mashing away at dogs without understanding or reading them. (I'll have to iron this thought out later). In short , good decoys are hard to find . 


Hunter's contribution , same thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ2NYQkGG_M

in this set up , the dog has support of handler, is given permission to get into fight , which he enjoys , and is not stressed by , and you see the progression of increased confidence in power and fight with each session. 

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.


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## hunterisgreat

The round table is for positions. The square is not. It's for bringing out aggression/defense, or teaching turn on/turn off. 

Tables, and particularly the square table, are probably used incorrectly more often than not. In extremely cautious with whom I do table work with


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## bill

Hi Carmen. Let me say I have never used a table" but I have trained protection dogs" in the old days they would try out a dog to work defensive" and aggressive drive if someone doesn't know what they are doing they can break or make a good fearful like the video! Done right with a good dog like hunters" wow! Most important things to train in protection! Good dog! Good Training! J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hunterisgreat

The round table is not meant to be stressful for the dog... Close to the ground, lots of freedom to move, round so the edge is always the same distance. The dog in that video is stressed.. Shouldn't be

The square table is stressful by design. Much higher, very short lead, the edge is irregular and close. It's meant to be stressful. The USMC makes recruits fight with pugil sticks on a beam for the same reason... Inducing stress and showing you how to cope with it and use it


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## Blitzkrieg1

That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.

However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.
> 
> However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.


Lmao that's a good point. Both mine have tolerated my early horrid handling and training quite well lol


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## carmspack

because knowing will make you a better evaluator.

as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .

when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> because knowing will make you a better evaluator.
> 
> as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .
> 
> when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .


 
I know he is to weak genetically to be a stud.

From a training helper (have begun learning the ropes) prespective, I see your point.

Based on his on field preformance which isnt terrible I would assume they pushed him to hard on the table.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> because knowing will make you a better evaluator.
> 
> as Vandal has said in the past some dogs appeared different when given decoy work which understood the dog .
> 
> when you develop a young dog you have to be in tune to where they are -- not shoe horn them into some pre-fab program .


I agree... And on that note, table work isn't needed for all dogs... Or just round table work... Or just square... Jäger has been mostly on the square, once or twice on a round. Katya has only been on a round table, many times


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I know he is to weak genetically to be a stud.
> 
> From a training helper (have begun learning the ropes) prespective, I see your point.
> 
> Based on his on field preformance which isnt terrible I would assume they pushed him to hard on the table.


From what we saw, I don't think the table did it... That wasn't pushing the dog, or maybe my opinion of stressing a dog is way skewed. I just don't think the dog was ever that strong. The table can amplify weakness for you to see... For example, a hint of defense becomes pronounced on the square table, a hint of aggression is pronounced just the same.


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## Blitzkrieg1

You dont think he could have been pushed to hard on the table in an earlier session? 
Ill agree that he isnt strong but from my understanding the table can be used to empower weaker dogs.


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You dont think he could have been pushed to hard on the table in an earlier session?
> Ill agree that he isnt strong but from my understanding the table can be used to empower weaker dogs.


Yes it can in the right hands... But what we saw was low stress. Sure they could have pushed too hard and exposed or created cracks in the dog early, but I doubt it. The dog was probably just not that strong to start with... Maybe even they played with a table bc they saw that themselves


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## Blitzkrieg1

Id like to see a HB in the blind. It would be interesting to see how he does there.


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## hunterisgreat

I think it would look better than the table, but still show elements of stress...


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## Blitzkrieg1

Thats what I was wondering. All I can find is some long bites on the field.


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats what I was wondering. All I can find is some long bites on the field.


Skilled training can mask so many things... That's one reason I train the way I do. I want to explore every dark corner of the dogs mind... *really* know what he's made of.


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## carmspack

asking what is a HB in the blind?

this from Vandal "


Vandal said:


> I agree ....over the years I have seen very good dogs worked way too much in defense. That was very common years ago. It was sad really, watching those dogs struggle to control themselves because they were pushed so far into that side of things.
> Then the work with the prey instinct was introduced and mostly, I found myself helping people work their defensive dogs using that method. Over the years, things have shifted, where dogs who really would work much better with some "defense work", ( I just don't like that term but I will use it anyway), are only played with, resulting in a dog who looks weak, when he isn't. "
> 
> the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .
> 
> a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
> Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ?
> 
> hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer
> 
> you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> asking what is a HB in the blind?
> 
> this from Vandal "
> 
> 
> Vandal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree ....over the years I have seen very good dogs worked way too much in defense. That was very common years ago. It was sad really, watching those dogs struggle to control themselves because they were pushed so far into that side of things.
> Then the work with the prey instinct was introduced and mostly, I found myself helping people work their defensive dogs using that method. Over the years, things have shifted, where dogs who really would work much better with some "defense work", ( I just don't like that term but I will use it anyway), are only played with, resulting in a dog who looks weak, when he isn't. "
> 
> the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .
> 
> a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
> Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ?
> 
> hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer
> 
> you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't need no, but it makes it mor obvious to all eyes.
> 
> Jäger is absolutely an example of "a dog who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey". He began to shine when we brought out aggression and piled on pressure.
Click to expand...


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## carmspack

this was carmspack comment -- should have separated it more from the Vandal


"the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .

a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ? 

hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer 

you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye"


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> this was carmspack comment -- should have separated it more from the Vandal
> 
> 
> "the same can apply to a dog worked in prey -- who doesn't show at best because by nature he is not play/prey --- give him a reason and the love of the fight comes out .
> 
> a bite should not be necessary for a good dog to come down and centre himself -- that is one of the differences in "sporty" and not .
> Is the dog on the table (Bruno) a primarily prey dog , worked in defence , too young , too often ?
> 
> hard to find a balanced dog , hard to find a balanced trainer
> 
> you don't need a table to "see" a dog , you need a good eye"


Sent you a pm


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## Yoshi

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That dog was being marketed as a stud hence it really doesnt matter to me why he is like that. If he is not strong enough to stand up for some bad training or was even worse like that from the get go, he has no business being a stud.
> 
> However, Im sure the vid looked impressive to those who bought him in Oz. UNfortunately there are very few working dog people over there.


Ahh, it sucks that Australia can be viewed like this.


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## carmspack

USA is seen the same way .


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## carmspack

back to table training --





 compare to randomly chosen


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic7qT6qgRZc

which decoy technique will benefit the dog in the future.

which dog is stressed , which dog is calm?


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## Vandal

Like I have said before about the dog who went down under....the stillness of the helper disturbed him greatly. Really, there is nothing quite as threatening to a dog as something that stands still and stares. If you consider nature, another animal doing that is not usually saying " hey, lets be friends". 

Mostly, what I have seen with table work, is not very talented helpers doing the same bad training with a dog standing on a table. Many cannot seem to stop themselves from getting right on top of the dog and fail to respect the dog's aggression or power as they approach the dog. They all seem to understand, (or at least they talk like they do), that the table puts the dog in a place where there is no escape....more on edge, etc, etc, etc. 
When that is the case, what you do as the "bad guy" becomes that much more important. However, like I just said, a helper who lacks the ability to read a dog, does not suddenly learn how because a dog is standing at a higher altitude.

When you push a dog into doing something, or you ignore what the dog is telling you and just keep going after him, you really 'are' working them in defense. That is not a frame of mind that serves a SchH dog well....or any dog really. The SchH dog has to start the fight and know how to control the fight, not wait for the helper and then react to it. The helper is not just training exercises, they are training behaviors. When you make a dog defensive and frantic and then reinforce it, you are teaching the dog to work in that state of mind. Yeah, he might look really ferocious on the table but mostly what happens is what we saw in that video,. When the dog is not pushed, he brings very little to the fight. He is essentially reactive and that is what can happen all too easily when the table is used incorrectly. 

Like I said, many think that table makes them good helpers. if you can't get a dog to work on the ground correctly, you have no business using a table. It's the same with the e-collar. So many now want to slap that thing on and push the button. You have to learn the dog first, learn to read and understand them. Correcting a dog takes skill.
Most people who understand dogs, don't use these "tools" to the extent the less informed do. All are things you use sparingly and for dogs who will benefit and it is not a place for puppies.


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## carmspack

exactly my thinking and exactly what I offered on a PM to someone prior to your post Vandal.

I see no point in whipping a dog into a froth in prey as the Qaiser dog is . The eyes, the ears , the body tension says he wants to get away . 
The second dog is worked more conservatively with a better read and the dog is calmed and is less hectic .

this "nothing quite as threatening to a dog as something that stands still and stares. If you consider nature, another animal doing that is not usually saying " hey, lets be friends". " is the look of the predator having isolated his prey. At a recent kennel club show , which was a large well attended year-ender , many of the dogs started to squirm under the collar while the judge was making his final visual prior to deciding.

Saw the same dynamic on the Westminster show ---


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## David Taggart

> table training


In the video with the black puppy I can see a nice, rather free and friendly game ending in satisfaction. In the night video with the sable puppy I see almost a strugle and obvious attempts to stmulate him. I think, this "table exercise" is a good thing for evaluating the puppy, but if we are talking about training, what, actually, does it teach? Pretty useless for a sport dog who should learn to manipulate his body in the space of a field ( even with the bite work at the short distance), the complexity of sensations the dog experiences presupposes this unlimited space. While in PP training working in a limited space exactly becomes the task - the dog, who protects his owner in the small office, or protects his car should be able to work in a small space, in which something limits ( if not cuts off completely) any possibility to grab it again in case of loss of the prey object - at list this is an impression the dog should get during training. In the car - that is its side window, here, in this video, that is the table edge. 
I believe, the lead is for security, so the pup wouldn't fall over and break his legs, because, in bite work he cannot see that edge.


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## Blitzkrieg1

LOL are you still trying to imply that pup is being stressed by the table? That pup is not in the least bit stressed, nor is he trying to get away. There are some people that have much more experience then you or anyone else on here breeding and working dogs that have said he is nice.

The only place that dog is stressed is in the figments of some peoples imagination.

By the way the grip on the second more mature dog is not as good as the pups imo..probably why he on the table in the first place.


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## Vandal

I have plenty of experience Sonny.  I think he is an okay puppy but he 'is' stressed. I hate to point out the obvious but for someone like you who has very little experience yourself... and relies mostly on what others tell you....your comments hold little value. But you go on with your bad self using things that others say as your proof.


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## G-burg

> When you push a dog into doing something, or you ignore what the dog is telling you and just keep going after him, you really 'are' working them in defense. That is not a frame of mind that serves a SchH dog well....or any dog really. The SchH dog has to start the fight and know how to control the fight, not wait for the helper and then react to it. The helper is not just training exercises, they are training behaviors. When you make a dog defensive and frantic and then reinforce it, you are teaching the dog to work in that state of mind. Yeah, he might look really ferocious on the table but mostly what happens is what we saw in that video,. When the dog is not pushed, he brings very little to the fight. He is essentially reactive and that is what can happen all too easily when the table is used incorrectly.
> 
> Like I said, many think that table makes them good helpers. if you can't get a dog to work on the ground correctly, you have no business using a table. It's the same with the e-collar. So many now want to slap that thing on and push the button. You have to learn the dog first, learn to read and understand them. Correcting a dog takes skill.
> Most people who understand dogs, don't use these "tools" to the extent the less informed do. All are things you use sparingly and for dogs who will benefit and it is not a place for puppies.


 Very well put Anne!

I don't understand why a 4 month old puppy needs to be put on a table in the first place? What really is the purpose? And who is it really benefiting??


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## carmspack

G-burg , never mind 4 month old on the table --- how about this, the same dog even younger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MWWOTnWIJo (stressed)


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## Blitzkrieg1

Vandal said:


> I have plenty of experience Sonny.  I think he is an okay puppy but he 'is' stressed. I hate to point out the obvious but for someone like you who has very little experience yourself... and relies mostly on what others tell you....your comments hold little value. But you go on with your bad self using things that others say as your proof.


 
Lol actually I always thought he was hot stuff. After your comments I allowed my big bad self to contemplate that I may have missed something in the video and I asked some folks who know more what they thought. 

I have always lacked the ability to think for myself... one of my many weaknesses. 

As for my "experience" I havent been sticking dogs together for 30 years like you. (You got me there ) 

I tell you what though.
Clearly you feel the pup leaves something to be desired. If you still have the occasional litter. Im sure most of them will be bought before they even touch the ground by people looking for their next competition dog. However, since they can't all be superstars I bet that one or two will be just "ok" like that pup in the vid. 

Just shoot a vid of the pup doing the same stuff and showing similarly and Ill buy it from you since Im sure an "ok" middle of the road pup like that is something you produce from time to time between all the great ones... 
Carmen: (same goes for you) I know you shoot the occasional vid .

Also, just out of curiousity who is using your dogs in their breeding programs in the last decade or so? Also competing with them? 
I would like to see some of your dogs in action (not being sarcastic).


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## Vandal

Leesa, my comments were more about the older dog that was shown in a different thread working on the table. I forgot his name. 
However, as I said before, I see no point in using a table with a puppy and I think overall, some people have a tendency to use them too much. 
I don't work puppies in "protection". Odd how people would argue with that concept but that is how baskassward things have become.


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## Blitzkrieg1

G-burg said:


> Very well put Anne!
> 
> I don't understand why a 4 month old puppy needs to be put on a table in the first place? What really is the purpose? And who is it really benefiting??


I would imagine, the purpose is building the bark, strike and grip without towering over the dog or having to bend over to much. Not to stress or push the dog. As has already been discussed the table can be used a million ways. That table happens to be quite large with a barrier on three sides. More of a bite box really and you see many pups in those for all the reasons mentioned above.


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## carmspack

Frankly Blitzkrieg I would NOT be doing that ! 
I do NOT have any interest in a narrow focus , nor any interest in pushing a dog along some confined agenda time line.

My dogs are competing and going high in trial, and have gone to Nationals , with "decoys choice"
Majority are law enforcement.

I am not interested in the commerce of dogs , so not interested in public stud . 

Litters, one born days ago , in a breeding program for law enforcement , specialty dogs , sire and dam my breeding multi generations -- sire retired certified dual PD , and after retirement certified as a SAR dog , dam retired working scent dog . 
First and only litter for this female .


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> Frankly Blitzkrieg I would NOT be doing that !
> I do NOT have any interest in a narrow focus , nor any interest in pushing a dog along some confined agenda time line.
> 
> My dogs are competing and going high in trial, and have gone to Nationals , with "decoys choice"
> Majority are law enforcement.
> 
> I am not interested in the commerce of dogs , so not interested in public stud .
> 
> Litters, one born days ago , in a breeding program for law enforcement , specialty dogs , sire and dam my breeding multi generations -- sire retired certified dual PD , and after retirement certified as a SAR dog , dam retired working scent dog .
> First and only litter for this female .


Where are these high in trial dogs? Ill be at a few trials this summer including regionals so let me know which ones to look out for...other then Journey. I cant recall seeing a Carmspack dog in trial recently or at the top of any standings.


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## carmspack

I'll be a spectator at the regionals , none competing . The world of the working dog is much larger and more complex than the sport field.


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## Blitzkrieg1

You said high in trial..which trials? Perhaps Ill see you at regionals the dog is to young to enter currently so I will also be spectating.


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## G-burg

> Leesa, my comments were more about the older dog that was shown in a different thread working on the table. I forgot his name.
> However, as I said before, I see no point in using a table with a puppy and I think overall, some people have a tendency to use them too much.
> I don't work puppies in "protection". Odd how people would argue with that concept but that is how baskassward things have become.


 Yes, the one that was foaming at the mouth..

I agree on not working puppies in "protection" too. No need to rush them. Am glad I waited Kougar out before starting him, and my pup, will do the same! 

My own thoughts here.....
"I" think the table has some good uses for certain dogs or teaching certain behaviors.. "I" actually like what I've seen with the lower platforms for teaching guarding and boundaries..


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## mycobraracr

I personally like table training. It can show you a side of the dog you didn't know was there. Depending on the type of table used, it's supposed to stress the dog. Gives you a chance to see how the dog copes with the stress and gives the dog a chance to learn how to cope with the stress. There is something about being up on a tall square table that in itself stresses the dog out. I've seen dogs that are "man eaters" on the field go almost into avoidance on the table. It's very easy to break a dog on the table. So knowledgeable decoys is a must. 

I also have to say, that I didn't see that black puppy as stressed. I just saw a very drivey puppy wanting it's toy. If I posted a video of Xander right now barking for his toy on the ground, he would look the same.


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## Vandal

Oh, this again Blitzkrieg? I can understand why you want to change the subject but I won't be biting the hooks. Nice try though. 

Yes, the puppy is okay. He's a PUPPY being worked by his owner and that's all he is right now. You can get excited about him all you want, doesn't mean the rest of us have to. As for stress, there is nothing wrong with using it so long as the dog has the maturity to deal with it and can actually learn something. Puppies are quite limited in how they can channel stress, since most of what good helpers work with, has not developed yet in puppies. The handler can only teach a dog so much playing helper in protection work. There are limits to that as well.

As for the rest of your comments, none if them had anything to do with what I said, or the topic, but maybe you managed to distract a few people away from my last remark.


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## Vandal

Maybe someone who actually works dogs can comment about why they have chosen to use the table with certain dogs and what they were trying to accomplish. Why they thought that was the best approach for that particular dog is what I am saying. 
That might be something useful for people to read. I don't use a table, never felt the need to.


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## Liesje

I've never used a table for any of my dogs. I'm not against it per se....I've just never seen the point. The times I've seen it used or suggested was typically for dogs that (I won't want to sound snarky or offensive here) maybe should not have been doing Schutzhund or protection? Like they just didn't unsettle at all, would never bark, chewed grass instead of made eye contact with a helper, that sort of thing. The table was used to remove all but two options (bark and bite) and the helpers ended up looking pretty silly trying to agitate a dog that probably would have bolted to his crate if he weren't tied to a post. I've just personally never witnessed any table training that has convinced me it's a good tool. Most of the great, good, and even half decent dogs I know have trained and titled just fine on the ground.


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## Vandal

I will just say this in general, since some of the videos were not posted by the dog's owners.....I don't just look at how a dog barks, I watch all of their behavior, including after the sleeve is slipped. This is where so many helpers fail. They think their job is done once they slip the sleeve. The dog will tell you there just how good ...or not...your work was.


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> I will just say this in general, since some of the videos were not posted by the dog's owners.....I don't just look at how a dog barks, I watch all of their behavior, including after the sleeve is slipped. This is where so many helpers fail. They think their job is done once they slip the sleeve. The dog will tell you there just how good ...or not...your work was.


 What in general do you like to see at that point? After you slip the sleeve?


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> I've never used a table for any of my dogs. I'm not against it per se....I've just never seen the point. The times I've seen it used or suggested was typically for dogs that (I won't want to sound snarky or offensive here) maybe should not have been doing Schutzhund or protection? Like they just didn't unsettle at all, would never bark, chewed grass instead of made eye contact with a helper, that sort of thing. The table was used to remove all but two options (bark and bite) and the helpers ended up looking pretty silly trying to agitate a dog that probably would have bolted to his crate if he weren't tied to a post. I've just personally never witnessed any table training that has convinced me it's a good tool. Most of the great, good, and even half decent dogs I know have trained and titled just fine on the ground.


Do you get the impression my dog shouldn't be doing protection work, or that he would chew grass or avoid eye contact with the decoy on the field? Would you expect him to bolt for his crate?


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I will just say this in general, since some of the videos were not posted by the dog's owners.....I don't just look at how a dog barks, I watch all of their behavior, including after the sleeve is slipped. This is where so many helpers fail. They think their job is done once they slip the sleeve. The dog will tell you there just how good ...or not...your work was.


For square table work, I've never seen a dog get a grip of any kind. Biting was never done on that table. For *round* table work yes... but then I've only used round table work for positioning & control work.


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## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> Do you get the impression my dog shouldn't be doing protection work, or that he would chew grass or avoid eye contact with the decoy on the field? Would you expect him to bolt for his crate?


I've never met you or your dogs. I don't really like to judge dogs I don't know based on YouTube clips (actually I haven't watched any vids in this thread, other than the one someone posted before about the stud dog). When I say "experience" or "seen" I mean I was there in person, I know/knew the people and dogs involved and understood the context. I have personally never been impressed with table training. I'd bet your dogs are pretty fine working dogs even if they never got on a table.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> I've never met you or your dogs. I don't really like to judge dogs I don't know based on YouTube clips (actually I haven't watched any vids in this thread, other than the one someone posted before about the stud dog). When I say "experience" or "seen" I mean I was there in person, I know/knew the people and dogs involved and understood the context. I have personally never been impressed with table training. I'd bet your dogs are pretty fine working dogs even if they never got on a table.


A video of my male doing square/"defense" table work was in the initial post by carmspack. It is, IMO, an example of great table work. Maybe if you watched it it would help show why the work you've seen in the past was less than ideal or inappropriate?

I'm sure he'd be a fine working dog with or without a table/prong/electric/treats/tugs/sleeve/any other tool we use... But I choose to maximize his natural ability through training, using whatever tools are available to us and enhance our training


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## martemchik

We had a discussion a few days ago about defense/prey drives. Well…my male prefers to stay in prey drive and because he wasn’t “developed” as a puppy, there is quite a bit of “defense” being developed right now. My helper and I used a table in order to get him a little more stressed, and create more of a defensive attitude.

He’s also been worked mostly on a sleeve, so when my SDA trainer/helper decided to introduce a suit, the table was used to help teach the dog to target a different area (not the arm) because the helper was able to present a higher part of his body without the dog going after the arm before the biceps/back was presented for a bite.

In my case, it did help slightly with the defensive development, and it helped for target work, both of which could’ve probably been done in a more “conventional” way, but this just moved it along quicker.

I’ve also noticed (since I train with both an SDA group and an IPO group), the SDA helper/TD is a little bit more willing to do things that the dog won’t see in a trial, and are more to see what the dog has in it. To test the dogs in situations which are abnormal and just “fun” for the handler/helper. Where as many times IPO work really focuses on the trial, and all of the exercises are either the actual ones the dog will see in the trial, or are exercises that are broken down components of those.

I've never seen a table used to do something for a dog that just wasn't "cut out" to do bite-work. Although...I have yet to work with a dog like that where the owner is clearly just forcing their dog into a situation it doesn't want to be.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> We had a discussion a few days ago about defense/prey drives. Well…my male prefers to stay in prey drive and because he wasn’t “developed” as a puppy, there is quite a bit of “defense” being developed right now. My helper and I used a table in order to get him a little more stressed, and create more of a defensive attitude.
> 
> He’s also been worked mostly on a sleeve, so when my SDA trainer/helper decided to introduce a suit, the table was used to help teach the dog to target a different area (not the arm) because the helper was able to present a higher part of his body without the dog going after the arm before the biceps/back was presented for a bite.
> 
> In my case, it did help slightly with the defensive development, and it helped for target work, both of which could’ve probably been done in a more “conventional” way, but this just moved it along quicker.
> 
> I’ve also noticed (since I train with both an SDA group and an IPO group), the SDA helper/TD is a little bit more willing to do things that the dog won’t see in a trial, and are more to see what the dog has in it. To test the dogs in situations which are abnormal and just “fun” for the handler/helper. Where as many times IPO work really focuses on the trial, and all of the exercises are either the actual ones the dog will see in the trial, or are exercises that are broken down components of those.
> 
> I've never seen a table used to do something for a dog that just wasn't "cut out" to do bite-work. Although...I have yet to work with a dog like that where the owner is clearly just forcing their dog into a situation it doesn't want to be.


In the above you mean a round table right?


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> In the above you mean a round table right?


No, we used a square table...with just one entry/exit point. I should add that my dog is 4 years old and is unlikely to be "ruined" or over-stressed. The TD/helper didn't do this to dogs that he had questions about temperament or readiness with...

I'm fairly new to the game, and I trust my helper/TD to make the right calls, so far he hasn't led me in the wrong direction. But I'm open to suggestions, or maybe a different view point on that type of training.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> No, we used a square table...with just one entry/exit point. I should add that my dog is 4 years old and is unlikely to be "ruined" or over-stressed. The TD/helper didn't do this to dogs that he had questions about temperament or readiness with...
> 
> I'm fairly new to the game, and I trust my helper/TD to make the right calls, so far he hasn't led me in the wrong direction. But I'm open to suggestions, or maybe a different view point on that type of training.


please explain "with one entry/exit point".

The tables I've used are the first two here:
Sportwaffen K9


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## martemchik

Square table, that was up against a wall, and also had sides on the long sides. So the only way for the dog to go was in one direction. I mean...the dog could've easily jumped the one foot side that was there but it does give a sort of mental barrier.

I was also on the table to hold the dog, he was not tied out.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Square table, that was up against a wall, and also had sides on the long sides. So the only way for the dog to go was in one direction. I mean...the dog could've easily jumped the one foot side that was there but it does give a sort of mental barrier.
> 
> I was also on the table to hold the dog, he was not tied out.


how can a square table have long sides??

What you are describing is *not* "the square table". The square table is a ~3ft high, ~4ft by ~4ft square with a centered tie out post with a very short chain to backtie the dog with. No sides, no where near enough room for the handler to be with the dog on the table. The short tie out, small size, height, and lack of sides are what brings out stress, by design.


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## martemchik

Alright, I see what you're getting at. The table was rectangular, about 5 ft by 3 ft and off the ground. Do you think its a different stress since the dog knew there was only one way in/out and also only one way the helper could come at the dog? I mean, it definitely put my boy in a more "defensive" state of mind at that point.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Alright, I see what you're getting at. The table was rectangular, about 5 ft by 3 ft and off the ground. Do you think its a different stress since the dog knew there was only one way in/out and also only one way the helper could come at the dog? I mean, it definitely put my boy in a more "defensive" state of mind at that point.


The elevation would raise stress. The boxing in of the dog I'd bet would, decrease stress, or not effect the dog... depending on the dog. Part of the stress of the defense table is you are up there, all exposed on all fronts... envision yourself in a paintball gun game, and you're ankle is tied to a 1 foot chain tethered to the ground in the middle of a field. You are *fully* exposed. See how that could be stressful? imagine the same thing, but you have 3 sides covered by plywood. You feel less stressed. Only have to worry about that one direction.


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> The elevation would raise stress. The boxing in of the dog I'd bet would, decrease stress, or not effect the dog... depending on the dog. Part of the stress of the defense table is you are up there, all exposed on all fronts... envision yourself in a paintball gun game, and you're ankle is tied to a 1 foot chain tethered to the ground in the middle of a field. You are *fully* exposed. See how that could be stressful? imagine the same thing, but you have 3 sides covered by plywood. You feel less stressed. Only have to worry about that one direction.


I don’t believe that type of a table would be less stress than just open ground though. I get the part about less stress than the type of table you’re talking about, but I still believe there is more stress than just an open field. They are in a sense “cornered” and it limits them to just one option…fight.

In my dog, it definitely brought him into a better bark quicker than usual and like I said, was easier to work on for targeting a different part of the body.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> I don’t believe that type of a table would be less stress than just open ground though. I get the part about less stress than the type of table you’re talking about, but I still believe there is more stress than just an open field. They are in a sense “cornered” and it limits them to just one option…fight.
> 
> In my dog, it definitely brought him into a better bark quicker than usual and like I said, was easier to work on for targeting a different part of the body.


I agree. Not less stress. Just less than a "defense table". In the analogy I just left out the elevated part for simplicity. I was only focusing on the role of the barriers. Think about this then (hopefully you've been to a lakehouse or the coast before), what would be more stressful, walking down a dock with a railing, or walking down a dock with no railing? The barrier gives us some security. Its also always better from a defensive strategy standpoint, to have to fight in one direction only. Ask hermit crabs or snails, or any animal that lives in a cave lol. The only things that stay out in the open, are things too big or too bad to be attacked, too fast to be caught, or too sneaky to be seen.

I don't know why a foot high table doesn't stress a dog, or why a 4 foot high one does... I'd guess there is a threshold where the brain says "falling from here might hurt".


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## Blitzkrieg1

Vandal said:


> Oh, this again Blitzkrieg? I can understand why you want to change the subject but I won't be biting the hooks. Nice try though.
> 
> *I am very on subject here. I dont know what you are referring too, the puppy vid that was brought up by someone else? Oh by hooks you must mean my request for one of those "ok" pups like in the video that you must produce inbetween all those allstar dogs competitors are buying from you? *
> 
> Yes, the puppy is okay. He's a PUPPY being worked by his owner and that's all he is right . now. You can get excited about him all you want, doesn't mean the rest of us have to. As for stress, there is nothing wrong with using it so long as the dog has the maturity to deal with it and can actually learn something. Puppies are quite limited in how they can channel stress, since most of what good helpers work with, has not developed yet in puppies. The handler can only teach a dog so much playing helper in protection work. There are limits to that as well.
> 
> *I wasnt asking anyone to get excited about him. Carmen posted the vid and brought him up again and implied, like you have that he is stressed. I disagreed. If some folks cant see why what he is showing at his age is good then its no skin of my back.*
> 
> As for the rest of your comments, none if them had anything to do with what I said, or the topic, but maybe you managed to distract a few people away from my last remark.


Lol now who is changing the subject I was focusing on the pup you were criticizing. I was asking you to show me one of your pups that was better so I could see the difference. Whats this last remark you speak of? How much you value my opinion? Well I guess Ill keep it respectful for now and not get into how much I value yours..


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## G-burg

Our field has a round table.. although I think it gets used more for grooming and nail clipping... But the few times folks have used it, it was for barking behavior on a couple of dogs and a couple more for gripping behavior..

Most of our work is done out on the field.. some dogs have been worked in the club house, behind the club house or in woods..


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## onyx'girl

The long table can also be used to teach a force retrieve. And that is a place of stress, "you must or else"


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## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> The long table can also be used to teach a force retrieve. And that is a place of stress, "you must or else"


Those are more like 10ft long. Could have been half a retrieve table. My initial thought


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## Smithie86

The round table is for transition and used for bark and hold. Focus is on barking, bite, good and clean out.

The square table is where the dog learns to be aggressive.

And the table originated in Germany and then brought over by Gene to the US; he was taught and influenced by Reinhard Lindner.


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## hunterisgreat

Smithie86 said:


> The round table is for transition and used for bark and hold. Focus is on barking, bite, good and clean out.
> 
> The square table is where the dog learns to be aggressive.
> 
> And the table originated in Germany and then brought over by Gene to the US; he was taught and influenced by Reinhard Lindner.


So did you see the vid I threw together? This is traditional square table work yes?


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## lhczth

*I am a bit late with this warning, but could we please keep out the personal stuff and stay on topic. People are allowed their opinions and insulting them or challenging them about their own dogs just because you don't like that opinion will no longer be tolerated. 

Thank you,

ADMIN*


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## mycobraracr

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't know why a foot high table doesn't stress a dog, or why a 4 foot high one does... I'd guess there is a threshold where the brain says "falling from here might hurt".




For humans I know there is a point where it all looks the same. I would venture to guess dogs have the same. Ever been to military jump school? There is a reason most of the training is done at 36ft not hundreds. 


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## bill

35 ft. Not that bad" just worry about hitting head on platform" jumping from plane" exciting! Fun!'hanging from 250 ft. Tower waiting your turn to drop" stressful" you are anxious" thinking about blowing into tower" hope you don't crash and burn"
Hit hard and break bones!

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## hunterisgreat

mycobraracr said:


> For humans I know there is a point where it all looks the same. I would venture to guess dogs have the same. Ever been to military jump school? There is a reason most of the training is done at 36ft not hundreds.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not in the military but was an avid skydiver when I was 16/17 yrs old


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## bill

Memories" wish I could still jump Hunter" knees won't let me" it sucks getting older.

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## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Memories" wish I could still jump Hunter" knees won't let me" it sucks getting older.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My joints are great but I broke a few vertebrae and nearly paralyzed myself on a motocross triple jump so I'm more cautious these days


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## bill

I'm still in pretty good shape" good for one game of basketball" then the knees swell" and the back hurts" comes with getting older" I love climbing the mountains hunting" my knees don't" anyway back on topic" I like your dog" OK I already said that! Lol Bill

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## carmspack

I asked the questions about table training because I am not familiar with it , have not used it, don't foresee using it in the future as an aide . I would rather see more interest and more attention to handlers developing a relationship with the dog that is not so command and control based . I don't see the benefits of young pups , as in the video, worked on a table in one function , when this is the premium time to promote the working relationship . Too focused on appearances . Show me the dog one year later and see if the push has made any impact on intensity . Careful of young dogs mental and physical thresholds -- don't sacrifice dogs for ego. 

too much equipment , not enough dog


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> I asked the questions about table training because I am not familiar with it , have not used it, don't foresee using it in the future as an aide . I would rather see more interest and more attention to handlers developing a relationship with the dog that is not so command and control based . I don't see the benefits of young pups , as in the video, worked on a table in one function , when this is the premium time to promote the working relationship . Too focused on appearances . Show me the dog one year later and see if the push has made any impact on intensity . Careful of young dogs mental and physical thresholds -- don't sacrifice dogs for ego.
> 
> too much equipment , not enough dog


I could use a young dog (meaning not ready for the stress & pressure of the defense table) on a round table but I don't do pressure on the round. Bc the pole swivels it's very good for positioning, calm carrying, teaching side transport position


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## bill

I don't work protection until at least one year" I work on exposure to the real world" ob. Bond" trust" and I teach people are OK " I let people pet the dog' not everyone just some' not trying to make a therapy dog' but I am teaching people are OK" later I will teach just not some people' that is for me to decide not the dog" unless told a command or attacked the dog remains neutral!
Carmen I believe the Germans used to wait a year before any training' thoughts on this? Bill

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## cliffson1

The tables, IMO, round and square, are tools just like remote, pinch collar, etc,.....in skilled hands they are awesome, in unskilled hands they can be liability. The reality is that if you can't " read" a dog, the tables are really pretty useless. I train with an individual who is exceptional in reading and training dogs, he has a round table and also a box.....he does not use it for every dog but as a means to enhance elements such as barking, retrieving, H&B, defensive work, etc, BUT these things are not used routinely or on every dog. Some people like tables, some people don't ......in the right hands with right dogs it has value, but of course the same goals can be achieved with other approaches. 
Btw, my last four/five dogs I have trained for either sport or police I have not used a " pinch" collar,....used to, but decided I can still get there without it, but I understand the value of pinch in competent hands. Just some thoughts
One last thing on tables, they are also used to support very inept handlers when trainers or decoys need stable handling of the dog to progress to a certain point or give good timing to dog in terms of presentation.


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## Vandal

I would have really liked to see more of the helper in your video Hunter... but other than that I thought he looked good. 
It was nice to not see the helper constantly on top of the dog snarling at him.... which is what I have seen just way too often. It appears the helper knows just how much to push and has some respect for the dog's power. I also like the way you talk to him...no shouting and the dog is very compliant. Your corrections were not more than the dog needed...very light and he complied. You look like a team. I also like that you actually have a plan there with that table and don't give bites there. As I said before, it seems for many, they do the exact same work they do with the dog on the ground and their lack of feel and ability to work the dog on the ground, gets amplified on the table. Your video just looked like good training.


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## bill

Agree Anne" good training! Nice post! Cliffs on 1 .Bill

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## hunterisgreat

Helper was edited out on purpose... Table work, being such a heated topic, requires I protect the identity of the innocent!


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## bill

Or the guilty! lol

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## martemchik

Question...what do you think can go wrong?


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Question...what do you think can go wrong?


Push to hard and the dog will start to crack. 
Not teach anything just look scary while on a table. 
Same problems that happen to folks when they have more stress than they can handle


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> Push to hard and the dog will start to crack.
> Not teach anything just look scary while on a table.
> Same problems that happen to folks when they have more stress than they can handle


So...same stuff that can happen on a field if the helper pushes the dog too far anyways...


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## lhczth

> Not teach anything just look scary while on a table.


This is what I see the most. Or table work done on young dogs as a crutch instead of waiting for the dog to be old enough to bring more naturally to the work.


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## bill

Agree Hunter" a good helper has to be able too read the dog" be a good actor" and remember why they are there to build up the dog" not show how brave they are!Macho men with no brains" all attitude" worthless! Macho men and women with brains willing to listen and learn" priceless! J.m.o. Bill

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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> So...same stuff that can happen on a field if the helper pushes the dog too far anyways...


Yeah just amplified.


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## Vandal

This is why "I" would not work a puppy on a table. 

Most young pups only have some prey or play drive development. When you amplify it, that's what you get...much more of it than you might want. The whip....contrary to popular belief, was always more about enhancing prey drive than used to threaten with. That said, even if you do use it to threaten, a dog without the aggression that comes with maturity....will channel all of whatever you are doing, into the sleeve.

When you make a bunch of noise , excitement and activity and then hand the puppy a sleeve and it all stops, you teach him that is how he makes it all stop...by biting the prey. While this is behind most of the way we train now, if you are the handler doing the work, that aspect becomes even more pronounced since you are, ( or should be) holding a certain rank in your puppies eyes. Even if it is a helper, a pup cannot respond with aggression because.... he is a puppy... and it has not developed yet. As a result, all that work you are doing gets channeled right into the sleeve and that becomes all it is about...the sleeve....not the man...just the sleeve. Similar to a force retrieve where the hectic, uncomfortable things end as soon as the dog holds the dumbbell tightly.

I might play with my pup once or twice to see how much prey drive and interest in biting he has, and then I quit until he is older. Of course, it depends on how quickly each pup matures, but mine don't get a chance to bite until over a year of age. Barking, yes....if they are showing the right kind of barking. The dog I am working now matured very quickly. So, he was watching the training starting at eight months of age. Also, I rarely have a good or experienced helper to work with...there just aren't that many. So, mostly I am training helpers at the same time I am training my dog. I have to minimize the mistakes and the older dog is more able to handle that. 

Even if I did have a good helper, I would still wait. The results are so much better. People talk about how you can work the dog more serious later on after you play with him for a year.....sure....good luck finding a helper that can do that kind of work and pull the dog out of prey behavior that has been constantly reinforced since a very early age. Because some helpers lack presence, they will resort to using pain or trying to whip the dog into looking at them. They try to fight the behavior that has been ingrained into the dog to look at and get that sleeve at all costs vs what you can do with an older dog from the get go....teaching the dog he can control the helper with his aggression and fight drive...(which is now present in the dog because he is more mature). 

The idea that you teach a puppy to bite, bark and strike on a table, speaks to not really understanding where all those behaviors come from. It is not solely prey drive that brings strong serious barking, hard, fast strikes and full, hard grips and fight. It is first genetics and second, helper work that uses all the drives a dog should actually be using in protection .


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> This is why "I" would not work a puppy on a table.
> 
> Most young pups only have some prey or play drive development. When you amplify it, that's what you get...much more of it than you might want. The whip....contrary to popular belief, was always more about enhancing prey drive than used to threaten with. That said, even if you do use it to threaten, a dog without the aggression that comes with maturity....will channel all of whatever you are doing, into the sleeve.
> 
> When you make a bunch of noise , excitement and activity and then hand the puppy a sleeve and it all stops, you teach him that is how he makes it all stop...by biting the prey. While this is behind most of the way we train now, if you are the handler doing the work, that aspect becomes even more pronounced since you are, ( or should be) holding a certain rank in your puppies eyes. Even if it is a helper, a pup cannot respond with aggression because.... he is a puppy... and it has not developed yet. As a result, all that work you are doing gets channeled right into the sleeve and that becomes all it is about...the sleeve....not the man...just the sleeve. Similar to a force retrieve where the hectic, uncomfortable things end as soon as the dog holds the dumbbell tightly.
> 
> I might play with my pup once or twice to see how much prey drive and interest in biting he has, and then I quit until he is older. Of course, it depends on how quickly each pup matures, but mine don't get a chance to bite until over a year of age. Barking, yes....if they are showing the right kind of barking. The dog I am working now matured very quickly. So, he was watching the training starting at eight months of age. Also, I rarely have a good or experienced helper to work with...there just aren't that many. So, mostly I am training helpers at the same time I am training my dog. I have to minimize the mistakes and the older dog is more able to handle that.
> 
> Even if I did have a good helper, I would still wait. The results are so much better. People talk about how you can work the dog more serious later on after you play with him for a year.....sure....good luck finding a helper that can do that kind of work and pull the dog out of prey behavior that has been constantly reinforced since a very early age. Because some helpers lack presence, they will resort to using pain or trying to whip the dog into looking at them. They try to fight the behavior that has been ingrained into the dog to look at and get that sleeve at all costs vs what you can do with an older dog from the get go....teaching the dog he can control the helper with his aggression and fight drive...(which is now present in the dog because he is more mature).
> 
> The idea that you teach a puppy to bite, bark and strike on a table, speaks to not really understanding where all those behaviors come from. It is not solely prey drive that brings strong serious barking, hard, fast strikes and full, hard grips and fight. It is first genetics and second, helper work that uses all the drives a dog should actually be using in protection .


Started training jäger at 4 so we never had to ponder that. I agree though


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## GSDElsa

martemchik said:


> Alright, I see what you're getting at. The table was rectangular, about 5 ft by 3 ft and off the ground. Do you think its a different stress since the dog knew there was only one way in/out and also only one way the helper could come at the dog? I mean, it definitely put my boy in a more "defensive" state of mind at that point.


Hi, haven't posted in forever here! But it seems like there is discussion on this type of table. Vit Glisnik uses the larger, rectangular tables often (not sure of who else). The one we built for when he comes to our club, however, is more like 5' x 8' or so? I can't remember the exact specs.

He uses it (and I guess I can't say how others do) more like a combo of the round and square tables. A lot for encouraging strong barking while the handler is in the picture (handler is on table with dog). 

Sorry if this was discussed later in the thread, I was just skimming this and saw there was discussion about this type of table. If I think of it after work, I'll see if I have a good picture of a dog being worked on it. If you're FB friends with me and are curious, I have a Vit seminar photo folder and there might be one in there...


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## Jmoore728

Great topic. I built a round table a few months ago. 
Sportwaffen K9
Instead of doing 12" height, I chose to do 36". 

During a seminar a few weeks ago, he wanted to work Bane (now 10 months old) on the table. His first time. Only prey work. He did great in my opinion. Nice bark and energy, extremely interested in the bite pillow. After a little talk, we decided it would be better to decrease the height of the table. Take it down to 20" or so. Not for sure if that's been completed yet. I built the table for use at the training grounds. I'll know today. 

As of right now, we have been working a lot of puppies on it for basic obedience, positioning, or prey work. 

My lack of confidence/knowledge is in working a dog in defense. I have no intentions or plans to even attempt, but I'm trying to learn it. 

With Bane only being 10 months old, everything has been prey drive. 

Not sure if this question is possible to answer, but when you do "know" your dog has reached the maturity to start defense/protection type training. I'm sure every dog is different. I would like to know how you guys/girls introduce your dog to defense type training. I'm sure it varies, but I'm interested in the different training techniques used. 

Bane doesn't have high ball drive, but once a rag, bite pillow, or tug comes out, his drive amps up big time. He will play with the ball a little, but I would consider it low ball drive. Totally opposite when doing bitework training and using a tug or bite pillow. FYI. His bloodline is WGSL/WL. To date, no issue. Environmentally sound, and confident. I guess time will tell how strong his nerves are or the amount of stress he can handle. 

This was a great topic to read.


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## Freddy

I think a young dog should not be worked on the square table unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog. I've seen shy defensive dogs light up with confidence once they understand what's going on. More harm than good can be done if you don't know what you're doing.


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## hunterisgreat

Freddy said:


> I think a young dog should not be worked on the square table unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog. I've seen shy defensive dogs light up with confidence once they understand what's going on. More harm than good can be done if you don't know what you're doing.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't think any dog should be worked anywhere unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog


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