# Crossbreeding working and showlines



## Springbrz

There's another thread with a lot of comments and opinions about what seem to imply serious drawbacks of a cross breeding between a working line and show line. It made me think...

When the breed was created/originated all GSD"s working lines. Those early dogs were "shown" in competition and given titles. So, generally speaking all GSD's are from working lines. And, working lines should be showable as well for conformation. 

I understand over the last century breeders in different countries have taken it upon themselves to breed for certain traits. Thus, the creation of said Working Line/ Show line labels. Show lines had to start somewhere. Genetically they are all GSD's.

So one line has more drive than the other. I get that breeding a high drive dog with a low drive dog doesn't necessarily get a moderate drive dog. But isn't that how the different lines came to be? Experimentation? Not every pup in every litter is a carbon copy of one of it's parents. They are blends and each to it's own varying degree. There is always the unknown variable. Less drive doesn't necessarily equate to inability to work altogether. As long as temperament; the ability to work and health are there (regardless of the line)... What is the issue many of you seem to have with breeding the two lines together?

I am genuinely interested in your perspectives and reasoning.


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## Carriesue

This board is heavily skewed towards working lines so naturally most people here are not going to like the idea of crosses and that Schutzhund is the end all be all and most crosses don't excel in the sport.

I own a cross, he is not Sch material... he possibly could have been if I worked with him from the beginning, he loves tug and he loves playing fetch but I never worked on building those drives when he was a puppy. That being said he is NOT a low drive nerve bag, he loves to work and will work as long as I ask him to... In fact when we're doing herding it's hard to get him to stop. He goes everywhere with me, restaurants, big crowded parks, etc with no issues.

I think the main issue is when it comes to crossing lines you really have to know what you're doing and to not go into it thinking you're getting the best of both worlds. I think people here get too caught up in this line, that line... a good dog is a good dog. But these threads never go very well sooo...


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## ksotto333

Carriesue said:


> This board is heavily skewed towards working lines so naturally most people here are not going to like the idea of crosses and that Schutzhund is the end all be all and most crosses don't excel in the sport.
> 
> I own a cross, he is not Sch material... he possibly could have been if I worked with him from the beginning, he loves tug and he loves playing fetch but I never worked on building those drives when he was a puppy. That being said he is NOT a low drive nerve bag, he loves to work and will work as long as I ask him to... In fact when we're doing herding it's hard to get him to stop. He goes everywhere with me, restaurants, big crowded parks, etc with no issues.
> 
> I think the main issue is when it comes to crossing lines you really have to know what you're doing and to not go into it thinking you're getting the best of both worlds. I think people here get too caught up in this line, that line... a good dog is a good dog. But these threads never go very well sooo...


Well said, and I also own a cross and could not be happier. She will play fetch, hike or run until we can't keep up. Inside she's laid back and great companion.


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## Shade

I'm with Carrie, I like both WL & SL but mixing the two lines should only be done by those who have experience and know what they're doing. 

Separately you can have awesome dogs that are for the most part predictable, mixing them can have good results or disastrous. Every breeding has its risks however


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## martemchik

Here's the issue...and its more due to the markets or the worry about what the breeder is trying to accomplish rather than worrying about the dogs being unstable.

Here are the facts...a show home, or a working home (dog that will work in Schutzhund) is in a way a more desirable home for the breeder. Their dogs will be shown, they will have accomplishments, the breeder's name will get out there, more people will be drawn to the lines/breeder. In a perfect world the breeder might have co-ownership and be able to use that dog down the line in its breeding program without being the person to invest all that time and money into proving the dog (in any venue). Maybe they'll have that opportunity without co-ownership as well.

Well...to succeed in the show ring, you really do need the type of dog the show ring likes. If your goal is to have the next Sieger...a dog that has any WL features won't get you there. If your goal is to have the next Schutzhund World Champion...the likelihood that you'll be able to achieve that with a dog that has some SL in it is smaller. I'm not saying impossible...plenty of SL that have drive and working ability, but you'll probably have a better chance to get there with a WL that has been bred for generations to get to that point.

So each one of those customers or homes isn't going to be really interested in looking at a breeder that's mixing lines. I mean...unless you know that breeder, and really really trust them, understand what they're trying to accomplish, ect. But that kind of relationship with a breeder is rare.

I think the problem is, most times when you see crosses is because...look at how beautiful this SL looks and look at the work ethic/drive/ability of this WL, lets throw them together and we'll be able to please both customers. Right now...WL is very popular. It's popular to talk about DDR or Czech or sable...great buzz words for people that don't "know." And a mix of a beautiful, black/red, big headed, big chested, SL with that buzzy cool WL really gets people's attention.

You'll see most of the time people have problems with it because its clear from a website that a breeder is just throwing two of their dogs together. Most times not health certified, worked, and nothing is known about either line to be making this type of decision. That's really when it's an issue.


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## wolfstraum

The work x show cross has a place in a breeding PROGRAM.....look at pedigrees of V rated working dogs in Europe - many have a show dog in the third or fourth generation....done by a well known experienced breeder. That cross was done with purpose of improving some general or specific anatomical feature of in the breeders family of dogs. A pup or two was kept, titled and used in the breeding program. This was acceptable practice, although it was rarely done in the showline kennels.

The problem that I see today, is that people are crossing work and show lines for the specific reason to make puppies to sell to the pet market. They tout them as being the best of both yada yada yada...when their real goal is (99% of the time) is to make puppies that will do better in pet homes or for people interested in some type of training who really probably will not follow through but could do a bit of rally or AKC obedience...also because the majority of pet buyers want that "traditional" black and tan saddle (_which is NOT original or traditional at all, but a deliberate genetic manipulation by two now deceased SV Presidents who falsified tons of breeding records to do the tight inbreeding needed to develop same color/pattern_). You will see a few people touted as "working line breeders" selling more cross litters than working line litters because that is how they make a living and that is what the market for pets demands. It is not that they do or don't have titles or certification for hips and elbows...it is just that they are doing breedings for the convenience of selling pet puppies and nothing else. THAT is the problem.

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1

I had one..worst dog I have ever owned. Very pretty though. As already mentioned it can be done but you will have to cull hard. Also threads like this remind me why the mal and ds are now the premier working dogs.


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## martemchik

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I had one..worst dog I have ever owned. Very pretty though. As already mentioned it can be done but you will have to cull hard. Also threads like this remind me why the mal and ds are now the premier working dogs.


What do mals and dutch shepherds have to do with anything? And the same thing is happening to that breed its just not as popular as the GSD yet. Still quite new/fresh in the eyes of today's consumer and therefore the breed hasn't been diverged as much yet. But I've met "show" mals who do not have the temperament to do work or the drive to want to do it. Sure...they don't look as different as what the GSD's lines do, but give it some time and I'm sure you'll notice differences.


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## Liesje

The crosses should not done so that high drive + low drive = medium drive, nor were they drive + pretty = pretty and drive. Nothing is that simple and those who breed this way are probably in for a disaster.

The dogs must still compliment each other, this is no different than good WGSL or WL breedings. The same amount of care and thought and research is put into breedings between dogs of the same type. Also many people I know who are doing or have done a SL x WL cross are already planning on how these dogs will fit back into their program. They are using it as a chance to do a rather drastic outcross but already have plans for the next 1-2 generations in the future. For example, I know someone doing a WL x SL cross and already has plans to breed their female back to a WL stud, already selected. The breeding has not even taking place but the breeder is already planning at least a generation ahead.


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## holland

I am not a breeder-I am a pet home who is interested in doing some training and I may not follow through. At this time if I was looking for a puppy I would promise to engage in training and I wouldn't promise any titles-I am just not a good trainer just enjoy spending time with my dogs-that said it does not necessarily mean I would be interested in a show working line cross. I think people doing the breeding would be the best source of why it is done. I have had a show line and working lines ...but don't think I would get a show working line cross


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## Vandal

> I own a cross, he is not Sch material... he possibly could have been if I worked with him from the beginning, he loves tug and he loves playing fetch but I never worked on building those drives when he was a puppy.


 I have to comment on this. If the dog has the temperament and drives a GSD was intended to have, he/she can do SChH/IPO without the benefit of "building drive" from puppyhood. I have no idea what your dog can or cannot do but just want to clear that part up. I get tired of the idea that you have to do this stuff that I view as being a problem for the breed and for SchH.

There has always been a split in the lines. People decades ago, ( and before that as well), were aware of the differences in the lines and considered it when breeding. I did a few breedings myself using show lines with my working line dogs. It's too bad that the SL dogs have been compromised to the point they have, since some of the dogs were worthy of using. I cannot say I would consider a show line dog today but I did in the 90s. During my time in the breed, most  of the SL dogs were never quite as talented in SchH as the WLs but some of them had very good character...just like the WLs. 
Contrary to the stuff you read on boards, Quanto Weinerau was a very good source of character but many did not know how to utilize that line. It is somewhat of a shame that breeders went overboard with it because in some ways, the WLs could benefit from what that line could add to their breedings.

The working lines have changed also, so that adds to the hesitancy to combine the two. It would require a breeder who really does know the lines because they have actually worked with the dogs behind the ones they are using. As with all breedings, nothing is certain but if you know the dogs, it reduces some of those risks.

I will add this. Because of the heavy linebreeding behind most of the SL dogs now, I would expect that side of the equation to show up more in the pups. That's what would cause hesitation for me. The SLs used to still do the work but the last fifteen years has proven to me that I cannot count on the letters after their names to tell me anything. Some will say, " then the WLs must be questioned also". Yeah, to a degree that might be true but the WLs were not being rushed into the Show ring, that over the last decade, has shown some real contempt and disregard for working ability.

Last, unless you actually breed dogs, there is a tendency to look at these topics in a way that makes it all seem a bit too simple. It is not simply about shows and trials, you have differences in the lines within the lines, health aspects, etc.


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## wolfstraum

Liesje said:


> The crosses should not done so that high drive + low drive = medium drive, nor were they drive + pretty = pretty and drive. Nothing is that simple and those who breed this way are probably in for a disaster.
> 
> The dogs must still compliment each other, this is no different than good WGSL or WL breedings. The same amount of care and thought and research is put into breedings between dogs of the same type. Also many people I know who are doing or have done a SL x WL cross are already planning on how these dogs will fit back into their program. They are using it as a chance to do a rather drastic outcross but already have plans for the next 1-2 generations in the future. For example, I know someone doing a WL x SL cross and already has plans to breed their female back to a WL stud, already selected. The breeding has not even taking place but the breeder is already planning at least a generation ahead.



That is what I was talking about - a breeder doing this and having a longg term plan....a breeder doing this has a goal...yes, pups in the litter other than the ones retained, will be most suitable as companions, but that is where many pups in both types of litters in this country do go...this is different than just getting random SL females to breed to a WL stud to sell more companion puppies.

Lee


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## Andaka

I have an ASL/DDR cross. I love him! He has great drive and work ethic. While he didn't quite get the conformation that I was hoping for, he is still an attractive dog.


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## Liesje

wolfstraum said:


> That is what I was talking about - a breeder doing this and having a longg term plan....a breeder doing this has a goal...yes, pups in the litter other than the ones retained, will be most suitable as companions, but that is where many pups in both types of litters in this country do go...this is different than just getting random SL females to breed to a WL stud to sell more companion puppies.
> 
> Lee


Right, but I don't think breeding to sell pet puppies is unique to crossing lines. Unfortunately I see plenty of SL and WL litters that are random females bred to the flavor of the day studs, it just happens within the same type. The crosses seem to endure more scrutiny because they are obvious. Crossing lines or not, a good breeder will put a lot of thought into their decision and stand by the dogs. I'd rather see a breeder take a chance with a cross using dogs that they own and/or have watched train and grow up and then already plan on keeping some around than a breeder who is just buying pre-titled dogs, breeding them to the top VA dogs or top WUSV dogs and selling all the puppies. Also I think it's important to balance pedigree with the actual dogs. Of course lineage and pedigree is important but one also has to consider the dogs standing in front of them, how well do they work, what are their strengths and weaknesses, what do THEY actually tell us about the pedigree behind them. I've just seen too many dogs that get high praise "on paper" that you couldn't pay me to own.


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## lhczth

Vandal said:


> I have to comment on this. If the dog has the temperament and drives a GSD was intended to have, he/she can do SChH/IPO without the benefit of "building drive" from puppyhood. I have no idea what your dog can or cannot do but just want to clear that part up. I get tired of the idea that you have to do this stuff that I view as being a problem for the breed and for SchH.
> 
> There has always been a split in the lines. People decades ago, ( and before that as well), were aware of the differences in the lines and considered it when breeding. I did a few breedings myself using show lines with my working line dogs. It's too bad that the SL dogs have been compromised to the point they have, since some of the dogs were worthy of using. I cannot say I would consider a show line dog today but I did in the 90s. During my time in the breed, most of the SL dogs were never quite as talented in SchH as the WLs but some of them had very good character...just like the WLs.
> Contrary to the stuff you read on boards, Quanto Weinerau was a very good source of character but many did not know how to utilize that line. It is somewhat of a shame that breeders went overboard with it because in some ways, the WLs could benefit from what that line could add to their breedings.
> 
> The working lines have changed also, so that adds to the hesitancy to combine the two. It would require a breeder who really does know the lines because they have actually worked with the dogs behind the ones they are using. As with all breedings, nothing is certain but if you know the dogs, it reduces some of those risks.
> 
> I will add this. Because of the heavy linebreeding behind most of the SL dogs now, I would expect that side of the equation to show up more in the pups. That's what would cause hesitation for me. The SLs used to still do the work but the last fifteen years has proven to me that I cannot count on the letters after their names to tell me anything. Some will say, " then the WLs must be questioned also". Yeah, to a degree that might be true but the WLs were not being rushed into the Show ring, that over the last decade, has shown some real contempt and disregard for working ability.
> 
> Last, unless you actually breed dogs, there is a tendency to look at these topics in a way that makes it all seem a bit too simple. It is not simply about shows and trials, you have differences in the lines within the lines, health aspects, etc.


:thumbup:

Here is a working/show cross. I saw this dog at our 2010 regional championships. VERY strong dog. If you look behind the mother the show lines were the lines still known to produce good working ability, Fanto Hirschel, Cello Römerau, Lasso di Val Sole (Quanto son) and Trienzbachtal (show line kennel that concentrated on work and not just show). This wasn't just throwing a modern show line with a working line and hoping for a nice cross. His breeder also knows dogs and works dogs (not just IPO).

SG Abel vom Reichtal

His 2 sisters is also SchH3.


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## wolfstraum

Liesje said:


> Right, but I don't think breeding to sell pet puppies is unique to crossing lines. Unfortunately I see plenty of SL and WL litters that are random females bred to the flavor of the day studs, it just happens within the same type. The crosses seem to endure more scrutiny because they are obvious. Crossing lines or not, a good breeder will put a lot of thought into their decision and stand by the dogs. I'd rather see a breeder take a chance with a cross using dogs that they own and/or have watched train and grow up and then already plan on keeping some around than a breeder who is just buying pre-titled dogs, breeding them to the top VA dogs or top WUSV dogs and selling all the puppies. Also I think it's important to balance pedigree with the actual dogs. Of course lineage and pedigree is important but one also has to consider the dogs standing in front of them, how well do they work, what are their strengths and weaknesses, what do THEY actually tell us about the pedigree behind them. I've just seen too many dogs that get high praise "on paper" that you couldn't pay me to own.


I totally agree with that - but the thread was specifically about WL x SL crosses.....

Lee


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## Liesje

Right, I'm saying I don't think this is a criticism unique to crossing lines. I do not think they are being done because it is the latest fad and sell puppies faster, I think the opposite. If one wants to sell puppies, breed WL to the top WUSV competitors or SL to the German Sieger VA dogs. A lot of people won't touch crosses, you can see even on this forum people who don't have experience breeding GSDs and/or owning a cross saying they should be avoided and they would never get one.


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## wolfstraum

Lies, the point of MY thoughts were that a very very high percentage of the show x work crosses are done to sell pups to *companion* homes as the one and only goal. Probably 8 of 10 calls I get for pups are for black and tan dogs for companion homes...and the people know nothing about type or sport or show...they just want a black and tan/red GSD. If I wanted to do 3 or 4 litters of show or WL x SL litters a year, I would not have to have a real job.

And you would be surprised at how many dogs from World competition dogs and good working line females STILL go to companion homes! There are not enough experienced people looking for working pups - really experienced people want an older dog and still import from Europe....I could easily sell 4 or 5 males this month if I had 1 year old, hip rated dogs showing good drives regardless if their sires were BSP/WUSV dogs or not...but I (actually a friend has this litter!) could have 10 nice working pups, from titled parents and where the sire has won a big Regional, is multiple times IPO3, is a full sibling to a 2013 Top 10 WUSV dog and HIS dam is a 3x BSP dog...and still most of that litter will go to companion homes! I think 3 of the litter are reserved by club members/sport people (see the last email from USCA President for the litter details)....most sport people want dogs old enough to see what is there - drives, hips etc.

Lee


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## David Taggart

The most expensive GSD puppies, about 8-9000 EURO, they are from parents champions in both, in Schz and show. I found some:
German Shepherd import puppies direct from Germany.

GSD is one dog, not several. Agressive, obedient and very intelligent, it puts him above all other breeds. But many want to disagree with these qualities... And all these "show lines" or "work line" is nothing more but a tendency to produce another breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1

martemchik said:


> What do mals and dutch shepherds have to do with anything? And the same thing is happening to that breed its just not as popular as the GSD yet. Still quite new/fresh in the eyes of today's consumer and therefore the breed hasn't been diverged as much yet. But I've met "show" mals who do not have the temperament to do work or the drive to want to do it. Sure...they don't look as different as what the GSD's lines do, but give it some time and I'm sure you'll notice differences.


Not worried, their is no SV that governs those breeds. Nor will they ever be as popular as the GSD, generally just not the type of dogs most pet people these days can handle or ever will be able too. The main qualification considered in breedings is workability not if they can sit on your couch or have nice angualtion.

SL Mals will never be more then a fraction of the population, not enough money or interest in them. 

Take 10 mals/ds and 10 GSD you will have much better success finding a dog that has the drive and temperment to work in the mals/ds group. They have replaced the GSD in military application and are well on their way to doing so in LE. The gap will only continue to grow as it has in the last few years.

As I said threads like this are a great reminder as to why that is, go to a forum on which members mainly own DS/Mals the tone and topic of conversation is markedly different.


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## Liesje

^ I don't disagree with that but often when talking about the best working/military dog we're talking about "end-user" dogs, not as much about evaluating the best breeding candidates. In GSDs many of the best breeding dogs have not been "top" dog at anything and a lot of the best top dogs should not be bred or have not successfully reproduced themselves. Even when considering a GSD to buy, if I'm looking primarily for a dog to train and compete with, I look at it different than a dog I might consider for breeding in the future.


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## martemchik

David Taggart said:


> The most expensive GSD puppies, about 8-9000 EURO, they are from parents champions in both, in Schz and show. I found some:
> German Shepherd import puppies direct from Germany.
> 
> GSD is one dog, not several. Agressive, obedient and very intelligent, it puts him above all other breeds. But many want to disagree with these qualities... And all these "show lines" or "work line" is nothing more but a tendency to produce another breed.


I don't do Schutzhund, but I know enough about it to know that the difference between a 270 and a 290 is very big. I don't find it hugely impressive that those dogs have Schutzhund 3 titles. It's difficult to achieve, but not impossible. It just takes time. But you actually need to watch the dog work in order to be able to compare it to another dog that has a SchH3.

Take a look at the world champions of Schutzhund, you won't see any show lines in there. Those are the top dogs for Schutzhund. As great of an accomplishment as SchH3 is...it doesn't make you the top dog. There are many more SchH3 dogs out there than there are AKC champions or Siegers.


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## martemchik

I'm with Lee on the fact that most of this is done to sell puppies to the pet population. So that someone can say "dad was a champion, mom was a working dog and had all these awesome titles that I have no idea about." I agree that the top working people still import their dogs...but I'm talking about the ones between the pet and those. The ones that dabble in a sport, want to achieve a SchH3, want to get the highest score possible, and probably never go to a national level or world level competition anyways. They'll stick with straight WL. Same with show people...in order to be successful you need to have the type of dog that will do well in that ring. Sorry...there's no point in throwing money away and entering a dog in the wrong venue just to prove a point. There's a reason I do UKC Conformation with my boy and would never dare enter him in an AKC or SV competition...what's the point? Pretty much just a donation to the club...

Anyone that understand what they want out of a dog (more than just a pet) will get a dog that fits that or gives them the best chance of achieving it. If I know I want to do obedience/protection sports, a WL will fit that. And I know that SL can do it, but I'm sure SL people understand that they're going in to that venue at a disadvantage due to decades of genetics. Not saying a great working SL doesn't pop up once in a while, but the chances of a SL being high in trial are slim if there are 10 WL dogs out there with it. I usually hate lumping all dogs into their huge categories and I hope people will understand that I'm hugely generalizing. But its the same way with a WL going into a conformation ring against 10 SL dogs. Its probably 99% likely that it will be the 11th dog.

There's enough of us "dabblers" out there that we do tend to push the breedings apart just enough. We also don't trust the crosses and most would rather know what to expect rather than be a guinea pig. So I can imagine that most working people would prefer a SL dog over a cross as well. I guess it really depends on the breeder and what they're breeding for. I know a lot of ASL breeders and they wouldn't dare mix with a WL because they need their conformation in order to create a champion in each generation. I could imagine that many WL breeders are the same way...they kind of need that working title on that dog as fast as possible to prove that it is a good dog to breed. The longer it takes...the longer they don't have puppies out of that dog. Plus...you're comparing the dog or the bitch to all the other working dogs out there and hoping that some of those high level competitors choose your puppy over the 100% WL...


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## Liesje

I think most pet people don't even realize there are different lines, lol. Pretty much every event I compete in (which is about once a month) I have someone approach me and make a comment about my "working line" GSD. They are talking about my 100% type-y WGSL GSD that they are assuming is a "working line" because he's not an Am Line (that's what they think is a "show line") and because he's actually trained and competing. Even people who have owned GSDs their entire lives act surprised that he's not a WL dog. Heck, most recently I was talking to someone that BREEDS GSDs and had to explain that he's not a working line. I don't see many pet buyers specifically holding out for a SL/WL cross for a pet, rather they are looking for a pet and shady breeders are doing this cross not because they have any intent behind it but they just happen to have a SL bitch and a WL male and breed their own dogs to get puppies. Along the same lines I've found breeders who are doing that mix without even realizing it. I would hope others who have half a clue are not basing breeding decisions on what other people who don't even know the differences in lines and type are doing (or not doing) with their dogs.

And yes, people need to do the research up front and get the dog that matches their goals and lifestyle and be honest about it. I don't think it's all that hard to find GSDs but what's hard is when people see something on YouTube and think that's what they want, then they describe their goals, their level of commitment and training, and their ideal dog and it's something completely opposite then the picture already in their mind. If you want a WUSV podium dog it's not going to be a show line dog, IF that's what you really want.


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## Springbrz

Let me say...Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I have read every post to my thread and I have really appreciated the responses. I better understand where many of you are coming from. I now understand why in some other threads some post seem very harsh and more than biased. I want to thank all that have posted so far for explaining your point of view in a very civil, non-confrontational manner. I'm glad there was no line bashing. 

I have a much better understanding of certain breeding trends. I understand better why/how cross breeding does and does not work. Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences and personal knowledge. 

To be honest...I'm one of "those" GSD owners. We wanted another dog after 2 years with a pet free home. Hubby insisted on a GSD. Neither of us has had a purebred since childhood. We did no research. We got our girl from an ad online. She doesn't have papers. The owners of the dam and sire claimed  to have lost the AKC papers on the parents so they could only offer CKC (I know ). She was the runt and supposedly only female in a litter of eight. What I think (guessing here) is the truth. They did have AKC registered dogs but with limited registration. I think they fell on though times and bred them to get some quick money. 8x500=4000 on quick cash for the cost of first shot and worming self administered. 
Should they have bred these two dogs together....NOPE! But they did. 
Our girl has some issues. So far nothing too serious but issues still the same. She is only just 8 mo. so time will tell. 

Hubby keeps saying he wants her to do protection work. Honestly, I look at him and laugh. See my other post: she's afraid of the kitchen floor. This is agood dog but does not have Protection work nerve. She is doing well in OB and loves to track. From what I have learned here...she may be a cross breeding. She is very much ASL in looks. Her dam had lousy coloring ( faded black and tan, actually she looked more silver and black) sire was all black. I'd like to say next time we'll do better but she is likely our last dog do to our age. 

As to responses concerning GSD being fazed out by the military and LE for Mali's and DS's. I know first hand this is true. Our trainer works for Cobra Canine. They have the contract to create the curriculum and train the dogs and handlers for Naval Special Warfare Group 1 and 2. Our trainer works weekdays training seal team dogs and they are now using more Mali's and DS than GSD's because they often have trouble finding GSD's with enough drive and enough nerve to so the military work.

Again. thanks to all for the dialog and education. I have truly enjoyed the input. Thank you for enlightening me and hopefully others with this thoughtful exchange.  It really is never as simple as it may seem!


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## björn

Not so uncommon to see good dogs with some older showdogs from the 80s early 90s in the pedigree, but what could todays showlines really add if a healthy workingdog with functional body is the goal?? Ironically dogs with 100% workinglines today in many cases looks more like a modern showdog compared to the work/showcrosses 15-20 years ago.


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## martemchik

OP, depending on where you are its highly likely you have a 100% ASL dog. Or what is commonly called an American Pet Line on this forum. ASL dogs do come in all black, and its becoming more popular because they do look a bit more like the popular working line of today. Maybe somewhere down the line there's a working line in there, but without a pedigree its tough to tell.

With the fact that your trainer is a working dog person, I'm surprised he hasn't killed your husband's training dreams. He seems like he'd be the perfect person to be able to tell your husband that this is not the dog for protection training.

The biggest reason Malis are used isn't that its easier to find one with proper drive...trust me, the United States Military can easily find a proper GSD if it needs to. They're used because they're smaller and are easier for soldiers to deal with when doing special forces type things. Carrying a 50 lbs male mali is much easier than an 80 lbs male GSD.

And Lies, you're right. I don't think people are waiting or searching out cross puppies. But if they're googling, and the happen to come onto a website. To them it seems like a great idea. Even if they don't know the difference between ASL, WGSL, GWL...its just some more buzz words to impress their friends with. "Sieger great grandfather mixed with a Czech DDR." How great does that sound?


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## Springbrz

martemchik said:


> OP, depending on where you are its highly likely you have a 100% ASL dog. Or what is commonly called an American Pet Line on this forum. ASL dogs do come in all black, and its becoming more popular because they do look a bit more like the popular working line of today. Maybe somewhere down the line there's a working line in there, but without a pedigree its tough to tell.
> 
> *With the fact that your trainer is a working dog person, I'm surprised he hasn't killed your husband's training dreams. He seems like he'd be the perfect person to be able to tell your husband that this is not the dog for protection training.*
> 
> The biggest reason Malis are used isn't that its easier to find one with proper drive...trust me, the United States Military can easily find a proper GSD if it needs to. They're used because they're smaller and are easier for soldiers to deal with when doing special forces type things. Carrying a 50 lbs male mali is much easier than an 80 lbs male GSD.
> 
> And Lies, you're right. I don't think people are waiting or searching out cross puppies. But if they're googling, and the happen to come onto a website. To them it seems like a great idea. Even if they don't know the difference between ASL, WGSL, GWL...its just some more buzz words to impress their friends with. "Sieger great grandfather mixed with a Czech DDR." How great does that sound?


 Our Trainer is a really nice guy and certainly knows his stuff. He is also very aware that I, not my husband, does 95 % of the daily training and what *my* goals are. Thus why we are working on tracking skills and OB not protection or bite work. When ever hubby mentions protection work our trainer just smiles and tells him what a natural tracker out pup is (and she is). He takes the subtle approach. We have an understanding how to handle my hubby's pipe dreams...lol! Tracking is for fun. OB is an absolute necessity for all the obvious reasons and my goal is CGC and hopefully therapy dog. I've thought of trying some agility for fun (we'll see?)

As far as Ziva's pedigree, or lack there of, it doesn't really matter. She is our companion and we love her to pieces. But there are times when I am curious about her bloodline. What does she look to you?


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## Liesje

She's pretty  Could be WL or a mix of lines. Does not look like WGSL unless that is part of a mix.


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## cam

There are many successful crosses some of the most popular studs today go back to show lines maybe before they were so deteriorated but still bomber and bandit go back to quanto..nice working dog here in the states Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach is a cross as well..by far too many to name...just has to be done correctly


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## carmspack

this was the experiment in the 1990's the taunt , hasn't happened , if anything GSD are "the" breed chosen quote Blitzkreig "They have replaced the GSD in military application and are well on their way to doing so in LE. The gap will only continue to grow as it has in the last few years."


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## carmspack

quote Lies " I don't see many pet buyers specifically holding out for a SL/WL cross for a pet, rather they are looking for a pet and shady breeders are doing this cross not because they have any intent behind it but they just happen to have a SL bitch and a WL male and breed their own dogs to get puppies. "
I think there is the intent , the theory and sales pitch is one of "the best of both worlds" finding the "golden middle" as if you are adding hot and cold water for that perfect luke warm . Doesn't happen.

Also show lines tend to be more narrowed in the genetics (pedigree) , working lines are not so much a singular line but families or groups of lines -- not all balanced , but you can find entire pedigrees , picking one for illustration - say , Fero , while others compound on him . This is why we often have questions about the pairing of a male and female and what the outcome progeny may be like . Depends more on the combination then a show line would -- I would think.
So saying this some show lines MIGHT cross better with SOME working lines , whereas with others they would be disasters - unsafe ,
I think Lee Ms Wolfstraum nailed it.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> I think there is the intent , the theory and sales pitch is one of "the best of both worlds" finding the "golden middle" as if you are adding hot and cold water for that perfect luke warm . Doesn't happen.


Exactly, good way of putting it. I'm all for the "golden middle", but it's so much more complicated than most people realize, and it's hard to explain to people who don't understand bloodlines and how certain traits combine.

I have often wondered how it is in other breeds that have show/working splits, take Goldens for example. The two types are as different as GSD show/working lines are, but I don't know how (or whether) the two combine. With GSDs we have the concern and liability of potential aggression with certain genetic combinations. Goldens generally don't, so I could understand if Golden people (and other breeds in the same situation) don't have the same reasons for being pro- or anti-crossing the lines as GSD people are.



> Also show lines tend to be more narrowed in the genetics (pedigree) ,


To be honest, I haven't studied German showline pedigrees, but they certainly do have a homogeneous look to them, and I've often wondered if they are more genetically homogeneous than working lines are. Would the average show line dog be more linebred, that is, have a higher inbreeding coefficient than the average working line dog?

When I look at a show line pedigree I just think "show lines", as though that is all one family, but there must be different bloodlines within them, with differing traits?


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## Merciel

Freestep said:


> I have often wondered how it is in other breeds that have show/working splits, take Goldens for example. The two types are as different as GSD show/working lines are, but I don't know how (or whether) the two combine.


The splits in other breeds aren't nearly as big as the GSD splits. They _exist,_ but they're much less extreme.

In Goldens and Labs it's fairly common to bring in a field-line dog to add a little more "fire" to a lineage, or to bring in a conformation champion to add more bone or a prettier head or whatever the breeder thinks needs fixing in that particular line. A lot of the top breeders have hybrid or multi-purpose lines that get both conformation and performance titles, and will bring in a little bit of this or a little bit of that as needed.

I've seen that in Aussies and Malinois too (well, kinda-sorta... I see the AKC-oriented Mal breeders bringing in working lines, but not so much the other way around), but not in Border Collies and very rarely in Tervs. That may just be a function of the breeders I happen to personally be familiar with, though. I'm not familiar enough with those breeds to speculate as to whether that's actually true for the wider world of their fancies or it's just the little bit that I happen to see.


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## martemchik

Lol...seriously? Show goldens and field retrievers aren't far apart? Have you seen the two? They look way more different than a working/show line GSD. At least ours usually have the same color scheme...

The reason people don't "mix" is that no one wants to breed "middle of the road" dogs. People get noticed for having THE BEST of something. So either the top working dogs (how many breeders on this forum like to scream how many K9s and military dogs they've produced), or the top show lines (high show ratings, siegers, and the ever dreaded AKC champion are a pretty big deal). Your show/working mix is unlikely to be either. It might be very well balanced (if done right) or make a very excellent pet, but the likelihood of it being a truly outstanding animal is small.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Lol...seriously? Show goldens and field retrievers aren't far apart? Have you seen the two?


I've seen a couple here and there. 

I don't think they're as far apart as the GSD lines, no. I mean, yeah, of course there are distinct differences -- in blockiness of build, in the feathering, in overall size, all that stuff -- and you can certainly find massive cream-colored showline males who are literally twice the size of the little red field females.

But there's also a much broader band of overlap in the middle, and it's more consistent, moderate overlap. There are breeders who have established lines capable of excelling in both venues.

I'm not aware of anyone consistently producing moderate, dual-purpose dogs in GSDs that aren't clearly of one line or the other (other than BYB/pet lines, which I don't think count for purposes of this discussion), although I'll readily concede that they might be out there and I just don't know about them. I have seen German showline dogs that have AKC championships and advanced titles, but that's not quite the same thing -- they're still easily distinguishable as being of a particular type.

edit: I think I didn't do a good job of communicating what I was trying to convey there. The question was, are the breeders in that breed combining lines? And there I think the answer is pretty clearly "yes," it's a thing that they do semi-regularly in those breeds, and it's not regarded quite the same way as it seems to be here, where you are almost crossing out into a whole different breed. So when I say the split is not so extreme, what I am trying to get at is that the cultural split between breeders isn't as clearly delineated, not that the dogs don't have very different appearances sometimes.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> I'm not aware of anyone consistently producing moderate, dual-purpose dogs in GSDs that aren't clearly of one line or the other (other than BYB/pet lines, which I don't think count for purposes of this discussion), although I'll readily concede that they might be out there and I just don't know about them.


Yeah, ditto that. That's why I wondered if it's the same with other breeds.



> So when I say the split is not so extreme, what I am trying to get at is that the cultural split between breeders isn't as clearly delineated, not that the dogs don't have very different appearances sometimes.


I see this as a good thing.

With GSDs, it's more complicated, so I can understand why there is hesitation to cross the lines. Sometimes you get the worst of both, instead of the best. With Goldens, even in the worst case scenario, you have a decent pet dog that won't hunt and can't win in the show ring. With GSDs, the worst case scenario is a weak-nerved, low-threshold, high-defense dog that may only be safe in the hands of an experienced trainer.

I really would like to see a "total" GSD that combines the best of both working and show lines, but as far as the logistics of doing so, I'm afraid I have no suggestions.  But one thing that would help is if the judging in conformation shifts away from extremes and rewards the more moderate, structurally sound dogs.


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## Packen

Well when you merge a Ferrari with a F150 you get a minivan


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## Freestep

Packen said:


> Well when you merge a Ferrari with a F150 you get a minivan


Hey, minivans have a bad rep, but I think they're great! It's not "extreme" and it can't go 4-wheeling offroad or win races on a track, and the cool factor is -10, but it's an incredibly versatile and practical set of wheels.

However, comparing GSDs to vehicles is problematic at best.


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## carmspack

what people are exposed to are generally the pet or show lines. 
there is a wide gap between this and their version of working dogs , even in labs and goldens , and want to see a split have a look at some of the working poodles -- I am so impressed by some of them --- . By work I mean field work , water retrieval which was their original purpose, not the honourable therapy - or guide work some are used in.


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## belladonnalily

I'm still very new and uneducated on GSD lines, etc but I'm fairly knowledgable about the same in horses. Isn't it overgeneralizing to say yes or no to breeding working to show based on that fact alone? 

I have a young branded Oldenburg gelding (Anglo-Arab sire X Holsteiner dam). Bred by Va Tech's breeding program. Sire is predominantly TB and Arab (I know the least about this breed) & dam has Holsteiner, Old., small % Tb, & a few other WB "breeds"-term used loosely, for those who understand the warmblood thing).Sire was exclusively dressage and dam was competitive hunter on the circuit. My boy is definitely hunter and a pretty darn nice one at that. It was a well-done cross as his movement is "huntery" but he got the right components of his dads form and function. 

My point is, dressage and hunters are two totally different disciplines. Some do cross over but rarely is one horse truly good at both, competitively. Another dressage X hunter cross might or might not work. The individuals were examined as carefully if not more than pedigree, discipline, etc.

And my AQHA mare comes from reining & cutting lines on the top and QH racing lines on the bottom. She is athletic, as expected, but has surprisingly made a nice little lower-level hunter. I would not hesitate to breed her to a lighter-boned "new" style warmblood if I were still breeding. But in most cases, I would RUN from a QH/WB pairing. And many breeders despise the idea without ever taking the individuals into consideration. But I believe I could improve her and keep her amateur-friendly ride, among other attributes I like about her. 

Now, I'm only posting this for my education, not because I'm arguing that this holds true in the GSD world. I don't know if it does. But being 2 "sub-breeds" of the same breed, wouldn't both potentially benefit from careful crossing of the right individuals? 

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## Springbrz

martemchik said:


> Lol...seriously? Show goldens and field retrievers aren't far apart? Have you seen the two? They look way more different than a working/show line GSD. At least ours usually have the same color scheme...
> 
> The reason people don't "mix" is that no one wants to breed "middle of the road" dogs. People get noticed for having THE BEST of something. So either the top working dogs (how many breeders on this forum like to scream how many K9s and military dogs they've produced), or the top show lines (high show ratings, siegers, and the ever dreaded AKC champion are a pretty big deal). Your show/working mix is unlikely to be either. It might be very well balanced (if done right) or make a very excellent pet, but the likelihood of it being a truly outstanding animal is small.


 This

When did this happen? When the GSD originated it was a working dog. A good looking working dog at that. I am assuming (hopefully not making an ass of myself) that for *recognition* *as a breed* it began to be shown for AKC/UKC and other clubs. When and why did it the GSD become a breed so split? Why couldn't a working dog continue to be shown for conformation? Shouldn't the conformation be the same as what Max von Stephanitz developed to begin with? 
I guess I'm naïve. Shouldn't the AKC champion be an example of what the breed should be as whole. IE: working dog takes a few days off from work to go show for a judge as the best example of the breed, then goes back to work. I don't understand why the breed was split into such different lines. 
Can we fix this?


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## Freestep

> I guess I'm naïve. Shouldn't the AKC champion be an example of what the breed should be as whole. IE: working dog takes a few days off from work to go show for a judge as the best example of the breed, then goes back to work. I don't understand why the breed was split into such different lines.


I think it would take a book to explain it all.

There are very few breeds in existence that actually work for a living, and win AKC conformation shows on their day off.


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## gsdsar

Freestep said:


> I think it would take a book to explain it all.
> 
> There are very few breeds in existence that actually work for a living, and win AKC conformation shows on their day off.


It really is a shame though that that is not how it is. It's how it should be. Unfortunately people are in charge of breeding. And to get recognition so people come to you to buy your pups, you need to be win. Be at the top of the game so to speak. 

They all were the same in the beginning. But then one dog wins big at big conformation show and the judge talks about the beautiful gait. So people start trying to breed dogs with a flying gait, so they can win. Or a dog prances high and catches huge air on a courage bite and wins at competition, so to compete, people start breeding dogs with those traits. And so on and so on. Until the split becomes so pronounced and dogs without the big winning traits are not getting the breedings, not getting the ribbons so they diss appear into obscurity. 

I do believe that we are starting to see a spring back to a more middle dog. I hear more people now talking about finding a dog that can do it all, more so than in the past. But to be honest, very few people want a mediocre dog. They want the best, at whatever venue they compete in. 

Can it be fixed. Maybe. But it would take both sides to start working in the others venue. I have always thought that a judge can't put up what they don't see. So if people truly think they are breeding a correct GSD, they should be willing to get out there and show it in any venue they can. But most don't. 


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## Springbrz

gsdsar said:


> Can it be fixed. Maybe. But it would take both sides to start working in the others venue. I have always thought that a judge can't put up what they don't see. So if people truly think they are breeding a correct GSD, they should be willing to get out there and show it in any venue they can. But most don't.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Makes me sad  I wish they would.


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## gsdsar

Springbrz said:


> Makes me sad  I wish they would.


Can't ask others to do what you won't. Get out, show your dog, compete your dog. Be a part of the solution. 


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## Merciel

gsdsar said:


> But it would take both sides to start working in the others venue. I have always thought that a judge can't put up what they don't see. So if people truly think they are breeding a correct GSD, they should be willing to get out there and show it in any venue they can. But most don't.


Not just working, but winning.

I think if I had a Malinois, I would be willing to show in AKC conformation. There are working-line Mals who can win in that venue.

If I had a working-line GSD? No way. Not in AKC. I'm already ambivalent enough about giving that organization money _with_ the possibility of winning -- I just don't have it in me to make that many donations to conformation clubs.

It takes a lot of courage, and a hefty dose of masochism, to go out there knowing you're guaranteed to lose. Personally, I don't have it in me.


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## gsdsar

Merciel said:


> Not just working, but winning.
> 
> I think if I had a Malinois, I would be willing to show in AKC conformation. There are working-line Mals who can win in that venue.
> 
> If I had a working-line GSD? No way. Not in AKC. I'm already ambivalent enough about giving that organization money _with_ the possibility of winning -- I just don't have it in me to make that many donations to conformation clubs.
> 
> It takes a lot of courage, and a hefty dose of masochism, to go out there knowing you're guaranteed to lose. Personally, I don't have it in me.


Why? 

I get that people don't like to be shot down and spend money "to lose". But if you someone truly thinks that's they have a perfect rep of the breed, why not put it out there? Why not give a judge something "different" to compare to? 

At club level shows, can you not ask the judge why he placed what he did? Get feedback? Ask them to defend their choice? Make them think? They can't place what they don't see? 


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## Merciel

Showing in conformation is really, _really_ expensive. Tens of thousands of dollars expensive, if you want to finish a championship. If you just want to enter a couple of shows to prove a point, it might just be a hundred bucks or so (between entry fees, gas money, parking fees -- most AKC conformation shows charge for parking -- tolls in my area, etc.), but then there's still the opportunity cost of going to a conformation show instead of showing at another event where I might actually, y'know, accomplish something.

If I had a friend there who needed another entry to get points or make a major, then maybe. But otherwise, it's honestly just not a good investment of my time or money. Doing a show takes up a whole day and tires out my dog, so not only do I lose that day, but we'll be at a competitive disadvanage if I show in conformation on Saturday and then want to compete in a performance event on Sunday.

edit: Also, I am basing this on secondhand information -- I have never shown in conformation myself, so take this for what it's worth -- but my understanding is that no, you do not question the judge's decision. I know you don't in performance events, unless you have a REALLY good reason and, in some (thankfully few, but they do exist) instances, are willing to run the risk of burning a bridge to where you can't show under that judge anymore.


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## Andaka

I finished several champions that only cost me $2000-3000 per dog (handling fees, entries, and travel). If you have the right dog it can be done. Many of those dogs went on to comlete obedience, agility or herding titles.


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## gsdsar

Merciel said:


> Showing in conformation is really, _really_ expensive. Tens of thousands of dollars expensive, if you want to finish a championship. If you just want to enter a couple of shows to prove a point, it might just be a hundred bucks or so (between entry fees, gas money, parking fees -- most AKC conformation shows charge for parking -- tolls in my area, etc.), but then there's still the opportunity cost of going to a conformation show instead of showing at another event where I might actually, y'know, accomplish something.
> 
> If I had a friend there who needed another entry to get points or make a major, then maybe. But otherwise, it's honestly just not a good investment of my time or money. Doing a show takes up a whole day and tires out my dog, so not only do I lose that day, but we'll be at a competitive disadvanage if I show in conformation on Saturday and then want to compete in a performance event on Sunday.
> 
> edit: Also, I am basing this on secondhand information -- I have never shown in conformation myself, so take this for what it's worth -- but my understanding is that no, you do not question the judge's decision. I know you don't in performance events, unless you have a REALLY good reason and, in some (thankfully few, but they do exist) instances, are willing to run the risk of burning a bridge to where you can't show under that judge anymore.


I was not saying to question the decision, I was saying, ask the judge what he liked and did not like about the your dog. And in performance events as well, ask where you lost the points, things you can improve and things that they liked. Not question their final decision, just ask for feedback. 


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## Merciel

gsdsar said:


> I was not saying to question the decision, I was saying, ask the judge what he liked and did not like about the your dog. And in performance events as well, ask where you lost the points, things you can improve and things that they liked. Not question their final decision, just ask for feedback.


Personally I don't think I'd be able to do it, because I feel like ultimately the answer would just boil down to "well, your dog is a working line" and it's not a question that I would find it easy to ask in an innocent (or maybe non-confrontational is a better word?) way.

But that's more about my personal deficiencies/total lack of poker face than anything else, I guess. And I'm just speculating, I have no real idea what the answer would be if you did ask a judge. If you try it and find out, I'd love to know how it goes.

@ Andaka -- I think that's testament to the quality of your dogs (and maybe the savviness of whoever was selecting judges to show under).


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## carmspack

the time for questions is not at a pointed show -- by then you should have some experience , confidence , show case the judge the good points . They only scan your dog for brief minutes, can size up very quickly - spending time on the final first , second , third where minor differences, or judges pet interests are . You have to look confident . Size up the conformation , quickly, note their short comings and draw attention to where your dog is better where they are lacking.

The time to ask a judge about opinions is at a sanction match -- or a handler maybe asking them what they think about the dog , maybe have them take the dog in one time so that you can see the dog best presented.
At the last show I went to , a good friend , excellent handler in specialty and all breed said to a potential client -- I can take your money and handle the dog , but the dog is an egg beater in the behind . Get a good honest criticism.


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## lhczth

That is the one really nice thing about SchH trials, the critiques.


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