# Chicken Back Question - OMs?



## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Well - I have been busy for the past week stocking my Christmas-present-freezer and plan to "go raw" starting this weekend (we still have kibble (Orijen & Evo Red)/canned (Merrick & BG) left to go through).

I've studied up and spent many months waffling - going half-way - and including a few months back to kibble/canned to satisfy my vet as Luther has digestive issues. (no improvement - maybe worse).

Basically, Luther is a VERY picky eater. Keeping weight on him is a challenge - he is not interested in between-meal snacks - and I've had to give him Pepsid every day to prevent yellow-foam vomiting. Poop is always fine. The one thing he will always eat is raw and he seems to do so much better on it - so we're going for it.

My question: I got a 40-lb box of chicken backs from the meat market today and packed them all. They were fresh - not frozen - packed in ice - I'm sure not long from the chicken. I trimmed about 5 pounds of fat off them - still small amounts of fat left on them. They seem to be a gold mine of OMs - pieces of lungs, kidneys, livers in each one - and were pretty uniform in size - 8 oz. apiece. They all had tails - are these OK to feed? 

My plan was to start with one meal being an 8 oz chicken back and an 8 oz chicken leg or thigh - the other will be hamburger and beef heart - and to begin beef/chicken liver when all is settled. Both dogs do well on beef and chicken. I'm not worried about iron-stomach Otto, but might the OMs and fat of the chicken backs be too much for Luther? Would I be better to start with just chicken quarters or does it seem reasonable that all the bone of the backs will offset the richness of fatty tails and OMs? Try it and back off if need be?

Sorry - I'm new at this - and probably over-thinking it all - but would sure appreciate some input from those of you who are more experienced.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My primary RBM is chicken back because I can't find turkey/chicken necks. You can't really count the OM on them since there is so little of it.

Did you download Lauri's spreadsheet to figure out the weights you need?

I trim off most of the skin and just leave the skin that runs down the center. Jax is a chunky monkey right now so she doesn't need it.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I have the opposite problem with Wolfie -- I would like to put a little bit more weight on him. So I leave the skin on the chicken backs when I serve and just like Michelle, I count them as RMB.

Also, Wolfie used to throw up yellow foamy bile on regular basis before I made the switch to full Barf. Now that I think about it, he hasn't done it since I made the full switch. Hopefully, that'll happen with your dog too, Martie.

I second Laurie's spreadsheet. It is a great resource in helping you figure out exactly what you need to feed and for what goal weight.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Yes, backs are a great RMB and even better if they contain the organs!

You want to be careful REMOVING too much fat or skin. Both those are necessary in a dogs diet. Fat is energy and skin contains lots of good stuff - like Vitamin A.

If your dog is overweight, feed LESS food - not less fat.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Adding ...

Be sure to *WEIGH* the things being fed - not _count_ them. One chicken back may be 8 oz or 6 oz or 10 oz.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Definitely weigh things!! I got lazy and was giving Jax a back at night and in the morning. I was giving her twice as much as she needed!!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I feed a lot of chicken backs. They are cheap. 

I don't weigh stuff. Dogs need weight they get more. Getting too plump they get less.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I agree. I don't weigh but base the amount on what the dog looks like. I feed mostly chicken backs and chicken quarters and turkey necks. Some pork spare ribs and hamberger on occasion. Chicken liver when I can think of it. Dogs look great, teeth are white and blood counts are normal.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I don't count any OM on the backs as part of my OM calculations, I just consider them little yummy bonuses for the pups.

I feed tail and all...I take some of the fat off but leave the skin that runs down the back. They love chicken backs, and they are cheap, I get 40lbs for $15! 

edited to add: I have a food scale I use just for the dogs, I weigh every meal, but that's just me. I'm kinda anal retentive that way!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

I am weighing everything. Maybe someday I'll get good at eyeballing, but for now, the scale is getting a good workout.







The chicken backs I packed today were almost all very close to 8 oz. I did some splitting and combining of the few that were over/under by an appreciable amount.

I am using Laurie's spreadsheet model of 50% RMB, 45% MM, 5% OM. Luther is underweight and his goal weight is 90 pounds. 2 pounds of food a day is a little over 2% and that's where we'll start:

Meal 1: 14.5 oz MM (hamburger & beef heart)
small amount of beef liver and if OK will raise amount to 1.5 oz
Meal 2: 16 oz RMB (8 oz chicken leg or thigh and 8 oz chicken back)

All RMB portions are very close to 8 oz - some a bit less - some a bit more - they're hard to get exact - but hopefully will even out over time. 

Otto is 70 pounds and his meals are adjusted downward accordingly.

The plan is to get them doing well on this start (good poops, etc) and then begin to add other things one at a time - like other meats, eggs, tripe, salmon oil, etc. - and let them be my guide to what works and what doesn't, adjusting accordingly.

Laurie, the chicken backs had flaps of skin toward the tail with large walnut-sized hard fat blobs on them. Those are mostly what I removed and will not be so quick to do so with the next pack.

UConnGSD, thank you. I sure hope Luther does as well as Wolfie. I feel so bad for him and don't like that the only answer we've found so far is a lifetime of Pepsid. 

Thank you all for your insights. It helps a lot. If anyone sees anything that needs tweaking in the plan, please don't hold back!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: aubieI don't count any OM on the backs as part of my OM calculations, I just consider them little yummy bonuses for the pups.
> 
> I feed tail and all...I take some of the fat off but leave the skin that runs down the back. They love chicken backs, and they are cheap, I get 40lbs for $15!
> 
> edited to add: I have a food scale I use just for the dogs, I weigh every meal, but that's just me. I'm kinda anal retentive that way!


That IS cheap! I paid $16.50 for my 40 lb box - and threw out 5 pounds of fat. We are very lucky with chicken quarters here - our grocery store sells a ten pound bag for 49 cents a pound. I think they must come from a butcher's school, cut by brand new students with stone tools. Some of them are totally mangled - some missing parts - lots of feathers left on - leg skin, etc. - but the dogs don't care!


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang If your dog is overweight, feed LESS food - not less fat.


Interestingly, now they have research showing that this is true for humans as well. I saw an article the other day, either on WebMD or Yahoo Health (don't remember which), that said what really matters is the calorie intake. It doesn't matter all that much where those calories are coming from, even if it's coming from fat. I guess, "everything in moderation" is the adage, right? Going back to dogs, I don't trim any fat off for Wolfie because he is VERY active (3 hours of ball yesterday -- my arm's falling off...) and he is on the skinny side. But he were to ever get tub-tub, I would just reduce the quantity, not cut out the fat.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: aubie I have a food scale I use just for the dogs, I weigh every meal, but that's just me. I'm kinda anal retentive that way!


Thank goodness, I'm not the only one like that







I guess this is the OCD-ish side of me. I actually have a table printed out from Laurie's spreadsheet (can I thank Laurie enough for that neat tool







) which is stuck on the wall next to the food prep area. The table has the ratios for 2.6, 2.7, 2.8 and 2.9% of W's goal weight and I follow the corresponding MM weight based on how much RMB I am giving him







Yes, I am that bad. Martie, obviously you can tell by looking at the veterans on this matter, don't be like me!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: UConnGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: aubie I have a food scale I use just for the dogs, I weigh every meal, but that's just me. I'm kinda anal retentive that way!
> ...


Add me to the AR list.









I didn't always weigh everything. At first, I just eyeballed it. But I have a problem with being able to judge size just by looking at something. I would see this:










and I would think "Boy, that one amount looks SO small compared to the others!". So I would increase it a little and within just a few short weeks I had a very FAT (but happy) Cocker Spaniel!









So, I weigh everything so I know each dog is getting the right amount. It also helps me figure weekly and monthly totals - for ordering and such.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You may find your dog with GI issues does better with less fat. Risa has occasional bouts with SIBO (and generally a sensitive gut) and I've been skinning her chicken and cutting what fat I can off of many of her meats. While I understand the importance of fat in the diet, some dogs just can't handle a lot of it.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Laurie, that's a great photo to illustrate your point and it really hit home. As I read your post, I realized that is something I would do in a heartbeat. I measure kibble for the same reason. There is a 1/2 cup measure right in the bag and that's how they get it. If I eyeballed, Luther just wouldn't eat it all, but Otto would blow up like a balloon.

Jamie, I had heard that about fat - and the OM's, which was my original concern about the chicken backs. It gives me something to try if Luther has problems - I can try trimming even more fat and skin. He does do well on chicken quarters with the skin on - but I remove the fat "blobs" from those. 

Did you ever feed kibble to Risa? If so, did you notice any improvement in her with raw? I had planned to start this weekend, but Luther has once again refused his breakfast (happens 2-3 times a week) - so have decided to just dive in tonight for him and let Otto finish the kibble before starting him. Wish us luck!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Ris came from a shelter and I'm not sure what her previous owners fed her (she ate Science Diet for a week while she was there). But I started her on raw as soon as I brought her home. I have given kibble as a treat but that's it.

Trimming the fat is just something to keep in mind. It may not be an issue for Luther at all or it might be. Just wanted to put that out there for ya.

Good luck!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Just a quick update - Luther had his RMB meal last night and his MM/OM meal this morning. The only thing I added to both meals was a small dollop of plain yogurt. 

I got a little concerned early this morning when he vomited some yellow foam that contained tiny bone fragments. It was a very, very tiny amount. Gambling that his stomach just got empty, maybe a bit sensitive to the change and there were incidentally a few bits of bone left, went ahead and gave him his MM/OM breakfast. Perfect poop







a couple of hours later. He's acting just fine and I am so pleased to report that these are the first two consecutive meals that Luther has completely consumed in a very, very long time.

We're on our way - will begin to slowly add in other stuff as he settles into his new diet - and want to thank you all again for sharing information, your experiences and support.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Awesome!!

When Ris first started on raw, she would occasionally vomit up some bile and bone fragments. And some dogs will have empty stomach vomits when they first start.

Sounds like things are going really well so far.







I hope it continues.


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## thaliasmom (May 3, 2007)

If Luther doesn't start gaining weight pretty quickly, you might adjust his amounts upward. Our Puppy is consistently 65-68 lbs, and she gets just over 2lbs a day + snacks. She's about 25 inches at the shoulder, and looks great. Every dog is different, of course, but the amount caught my eye.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: thaliasmomIf Luther doesn't start gaining weight pretty quickly, you might adjust his amounts upward. Our Puppy is consistently 65-68 lbs, and she gets just over 2lbs a day + snacks. She's about 25 inches at the shoulder, and looks great. Every dog is different, of course, but the amount caught my eye.


Thank you, thaliasmom. I was just thinking about the amounts this morning! It's our fourth day and he is looking just a little thinner to me. The great news is that it is now possible - where it wasn't before because we couldn't get him to eat enough. I am just amazed that he has completely finished every one of his meals (hopefully not because he's not getting enough). He is off Pepsid (which he needed every day) and no more yellow foamy vomit so far. Without Pepsid, he did this every single day. This is truly a record for him.

We started a little conservatively and if all continues to be well, will start upping his amounts slowly tomorrow. Thanks!


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