# Schutzhund to PPD a natural possible Progression ?



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Pardon my ignorance, I do not mean to offend if the question is off. I am 10 year experienced, many mistakes, many successes, in raising two GSDs and am getting a new pup mid January as my Senior Dog "best mate" is checking out soon.  I should have done this sooner... I have never Competed, these have been pets and some degree of deterent protection at home and on the road with horses.. I read some opinions here that Shutzhund may not shift to PPD, so this Post. 

From what I have been told and read, the Sport of Schutzhund seems to be a good start to me. I could use the herding part and would like to train with hand signals like I have done for obedience. In Australia, a couple of great GSDs have died by a knife from an Attacker, with the Schutzhund forearm bite and hold, they died in Service to their Owners. *Could you not progress to the full body suit take down training from Schutzhund sport training?*

I ask, because the Sport training would be social (human) and a learning curve with Trainers. In my ignorance it would seem easy to carry on to the full suit training. Why bother with Schutzhund at all if I want a PPD? For me tracking, herding (they do here with sheep and my application is cattle), and some of the other sport activities would be useful as well, in my ignorance I thought it could be a natural progression. But I read that some have the opinion that SchH training first is a disadvantage???

Kind regards, sorry if my question is stupid... and Thank You in advance from Oz (Australia Mate)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would check out the KNPV training, that is training with transition from 'sport' to real life scenarios.

SchH(IPO) is great for obedience, but I would do differently if my goal was a PP dog as end result. Especially if you want to search out a suspect or weapon. 
KNPV Police Dog Training
But you have to do what you have to do in your locale....not sure there are PP type clubs available to you?


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Thank you Onyx's Girl..


Choices are limited here. Out on the Last Frontier the size of America but only 20 million people... When I go out Bush it is like west Texas about 1880 or so. 

All I have heard of in the way of Club or Sport is Schutzhund/IPO sort of Club about 2 hours away, and there might be a Military GSD Trainer Club about 2 hours away near an Air Force Base.. 


Then there are a couple of formal PPD Trainers/Kennels, but it might be too serious for me. They are talking three months and six months at about $1000 month. I would NO WAY leave my dog that long for fear of him being ruined. I want his training to be a togetherness thing, as much as possible.


I am sure I will hear of more as I get into this. I have to go away five weeks a year to National Shows for Bushtracker, and that is the only time I would consider boarding him for light training. I would emphasis light training that we can follow up on.. 

Thank you for your kind input...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Oh, no don't let them train your dog! Of course you want to be in on the journey. Maybe some of the IPO clubs will modify training to the KNPV style, the bite suits are very expensive however compared to sleeves. 
I really think training in IPO can be versatile to include different search scenarios to have the dog be trained in real life situations. But many clubs are strict on training for trialing, not so much the dogs actual goals that the handler has in mind. My goal is to have an obedient dog that can do what is asked when he is threatened and have him be athletic enough with a good work ethic to do it. Searches and other exercises that aren't included in IPO would be something I'd like to train anyway.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There are a number of other Australians on this site. 

I realize it is a huge country but they may be helpful. 

Maybe you could send a message to sparra. I believe sparra is a rancher also.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Right O, Jacks,
Yea thanks, spoke to Sparra, he is 2,200 kms away... he heh Won't see him tomorrow.. he heh As to "Rancher" I am actually a Founding Director of a medium sized Company, I only play poor Cowboy on my time off. heh he.. My little place is only 30 acres on a river, 18 paddocks and stables, horses and tame herd of all of 13 cattle... I have competed with the NRHA Reining horses for 10 years with my Daughters, not a Cowboy at all, and only half a Horseman.. heh he

*On GSDs, I am hoping I have made all the mistakes, and can use the time before collection of my new Pup, to learn the best way to approach all of this..*
I will not collect him until 10 weeks, but will visit. I am going to Yellowstone dead of winter to see the wolves in Jan 2013, by SnowCat and snowmobile as close as I can get to "Dances with Wolves". Because of that I will not pick him up until he is ten weeks, but the Breeder is happy to board him and work obedience with him on the basics twice a day on a Praise and reinforcement style. 

Then I will bond with him, 24/7, even taking him to work everyday, until March when I again have to give him up for 5 weeks. The Breeders are nice people and are happy to work with him at a very reasonable rate of $150 week. They are the ones that invited me to their SchH IPO Club, which I will do... 

I am asking in this Thread if SchH can go on to full body suit sort of PPD, sort of gathering experience of others before I get too involved. My Shepherds have never really gotten into anyone in 10 years, "Bluff had been enough"... But in my own training I know the sleeve could get a dog into serious trouble with a dirt bag carrying a knife. That is the ONLY downside I can see to the training. Would think the carry over to full suit bite training would be straightforward. But again, never done the training, hence the questions.

Thank you for the kind response....


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

lone ranger the most important is the type of dog you start off with the backround pedigree where you get it from, you get a good pup that comes from parents that are really strong in protection the rest will be easy, if you start off with a lemon does not matter the training you will never get what you want out of your dog no matter how hard you train.

if you needed a dog that you know can handle itself and fight a man like you want, you dont start off with a pup either you need a green dog that has been tested already. Then you start training it yourself in pp with a respected well known trainer that wont ruin it asap. You dont waste your time in sport clubs. In pp tthey teach a dog all sorts of skills how to fight a man going wrist to wrist arm to leg or arm to arm. How to do all kinds of things. But you dont learn this in sport. It takes a long long time. And the dog needs to mature to take some real pressure. Id never start with a pup if i wanted a serious protector. You better be really picky where your dog comes from also. Sending it off to training or boarding is just a scam.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hmmm, that's discouraging Pets4Life.. But this is not America, we do not have the choices and resource of GSDs you do. You may be right, but I have to try...

I am losing my "Best Mate" Dakota, who was a natural or I was just lucky. Oversized 67mm high at shoulder Show Dog, he was not that skilled but could puff up and bluff very well. I will try this pup, knowing that if he is not IT I will be getting another one anyway. I have to try. The only dog available in PPD Training from an Agency was about 2 years old, never mind the money, I do not feel I could trust or bond with him like a pup. I could have Grandchildren some day.. I may be mistaken, but I think I need the bonding as a pup to trust him, even then not turn my back ever when around children... 

I will have to take my chances, and find a good home for him and start over if it does not work out. This was the only Black GSD (wanted a black, so burned by the Show Dog sort, and black looked the intimidator).. Anyway, very limited puppies here from reasonable people, not shonks or puppy mill hustlers. These are nice people Breeders for more of a hobby, GSD dog lovers, German working lines. Pets4Life, I know the odds of getting just what I want are slim, but I will try. And, I am willing to get another when the opportunity DOES come up.. 

Thank you for your input... lone Ranger in Oz


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life...I was just at a seminar with some police K9 handlers from the Netherlands. They start dogs as soon as teething is finished and can tell from the get go whether or not the dog has 'it'. If the dog doesn't show courage in the early stage of training, it will not show it at maturity.
They begin the training with trialing in mind, and the ultimate goal is to have the dog get high points in trial then be sold as a police k9 and used in breeding programs. 
Though these people do not work with GSD's but the Dutch shepherds...and not the nervy ones we see too often here in the US.

If I needed personal protection no matter where I live, I'd have a gun.
Lone Ranger, what is your new black pups pedigree?


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Onyx's Girl, Wow... 

*I am with you on the handgun...* But we do not have them in Oz.. Near nil handguns, rifles and shotguns strictly controlled and NO interstate travel with them. Get caught, forget the fine, lose your State Licence and they come get the rest of your guns 

On Pups Bloodline: I only remember "German Working Dog" Lines, because I would not recognize the rest. I have requested name brands from the Breeder. The Parents are desireable traits and bigger straight back builds, Bitch is a kennel rescued Breeder and protective, and the Dog is a two year old high drive Eastern European Schutzhund training sort... Best I could do not recognizing names and wanting good people Breeders, even then they are 3 1/2 hours away. It is a whole days journey to see my pup. The other options were bad blood hustlers 1000-2000 kms away... Or standard Show Dog types an hour away... Neithe appealing. Cody took a surprising turn for the worse and I was motivated. Took the best I could find in a few weeks of search pattern. 

Onyx's Girl, Thank you for the alternatives and guidance.... lone Ranger in Oz..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, it is possible with the right dog and the right training. I have done it myself and also have trained with quite a few people that also did PP with their SchH dogs. The hard part will be finding the right people to train with and also in finding the dog that has the social aggression needed to be a PPD.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

I would like to thank all of you for your responses...

I think I will have him as a "Best Mate" and just go as far as I can with him... I an aim high, and accept what I get. I am also thinking I will start another when he is 18 months or so. SchutzHund will not be for any Competitive sport, just training ideas and practice. PPD Training will be icing on the cake if he is even suited, and it may not be necessary.

Thank you, to all of you, helping me get through losing Cody and evaluating all of my training mistakes to start this new Black GSD Pup. I do not have to get all the way to PPD, a good Bluff counts for a lot, and I could end up with two of them out around the fire in the Bush. I have two now as long as Cody hangs in there.

Thanks again, a wonderful Forum.. My plan is "Best Mate and Companion first", and what ever training he takes on is a bonus. I think I have progressed enough, that if he is totally unsuited, I will find him a Family home, and start over.. Cody does a good bluff, aggression on command and advancing to meet until I call him off.. Odd looking strangers seek permission to get out of their car. Never had to take it further. 

I appreciate your input...


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## summercricks (May 8, 2012)

Maybe someone can explain this to me but I don't understand why schutzhund could really help you with what you want to do with this pup. I can see where obedience can help you but I'm sure it doesn't have to be as correct competition is. But in protection many dogs wouldn't just bite without a sleeve even with a command. Also, I don't see how tracking can help you herd. I thought those were pretty different. Correct me if I'm wrong in these aspects I just don't understand why schutzhund can help except in the fact that you want to bond but that can be done without schutzhund. I'm pretty new to the sport and constantly learning more about it and wondering if I'm missing something. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

its a nice foundation for a young pup who eventually wants to be a ppd. If the club is a good club with good trainers that keep an open mind that the owner would like to cross train or just trian in ppd one day. For the first year id just train in sch then with a good club.

Id prefer to get a green started dog that already has the foundation though. Then u can go straight to PP with a very good trainer if you can find one. Good luck with that though.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

*Thank you Pets4Life*,
I love puppies, and I had such a great loyalty bond with my one GSD Dog Cody, he responds almost instinctively. I do not know if I am just lucky or not, but I put it off to the initial 24/7 bonding between us everyday. 

For about $4000 I could get a Black 2 year old, already started, bait training poison proof, responding in PPD, attack trained, and in a program for PPD. This would be a CHEAP option, however: The problem is I feel I could never fully trust him around children, maybe my own Grandchildren, without that bond. He would just be a functional PPD machine.. That is why I do not get a green dog, year old or something... Maybe I am wrong, but based on my experience that puppy bond to about one year old is essential for me...


*Summercricks *In my research, I found that Herding and tracking is part of the Schutzhund Programs copied on the German scale. They actually use them herding sheep, as the larger dog could protect the sheep from dingos and wolves in Europe. Herding with hand signals or whistle code, would enhance my life as my assistant best mate. Further I thought the sleeve training would instill enough confidence, that if the Pup was stellar in performance I could look for a Trainer to go to the next level. The Dog is very vulnerable in the sleeve training, to an attacker with a knife for instance. I will go to a SchH Club for awhile and then re-assess the potential, as SchH is common where PPD is very rare, especially if you are protective about your Best Mate and do not want to board him at a PPD Trainer far away. Hope this explains why in my inexperience, I thought SchH could be a natural progression starting point... Note, I could be wrong, if if the resources were more common as in America, I might take another trail. But here? Imagine West Texas population density, even less, only about 4000 kms long... Heh he, Mind you the coast is much like California, and that where I live. But still, lower population density, like 18,000 kms of coast, with only about the population of California.. heh he


Kind regards from Oz...


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## summercricks (May 8, 2012)

I do SchH with my gsd and we just started this past summer so I'm still learning but herding isn't in SchH in America. I never really did research about it in other countries. I believe herding is a separate title here. I understand now how SchH could help you though. Be careful schutzhund is very addictive Wish you the best of luck with your new pup once you get him! This forum will give you a lot of information that the rest of the Internet won't from experienced people.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

A dog well trained on a sleeve can be trained to do additional things. As for the knife though, a good arm bite gives him a 50/50 chance but anywhere else, and the dog is probably done. 

Has anyone trained a dog to only go after the arm with the weapon? what if there is no weapon?

Schutzhund should be a good foundation to see where you and the dog want to go from there. 

[/QUOTE]

That is the ONLY downside I can see to the training. Would think the carry over to full suit bite training would be straightforward. But again, never done the training, hence the questions.

Thank you for the kind response....[/QUOTE]


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

a good arm bite? have you ever been grabbed by the wrist by a trained gsd? do you know what will happen to you? 


Anyways this is not a 50/50 chance you are with your dog you dont just let your dog fight someone you should be there knocking the person out and then calling the police.

leaving any dog by itself to do sentry in a high risk area is just stupid because you can poison them pretty easy or drug them alone in a field if you are not close by.


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