# To breed or not to breed that is the question



## Broten218 (Aug 6, 2018)

I have a 8 year old female she is slightly larger than average for a female but she is in good shape, she can play all day, loves to swim and of course herds our family around . She’s never been bred before but I’d like to have one litter from her and I’m just wondering if 8 is too old for a healthy German Shepherd ... she has times where she will play too hard or too long and she will get sore but I have her on joint supplements to help with some of that .. any input would be awesome because I’m torn I want a litter from her specifically because she’s an amazing dog but I don’t want to breed her if she’s too old for a litter. PS I’m not trying to do it for money or any other reason I love my dog and just want another dog with some of her in it ... also I’d love to have the experience ... my father did litters when he was younger so following in his foot steps feels like the right thing to do


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

You should definitely not breed your dog.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

No. No. No. She’s too old for a first time litter.


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## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

You obviously care very much about your dog. When we look at if a dog is a breeding candidate we tend to let our emotions and bias toward a dog influence it heavily. From an unbiased perspective, what qualities, other than exceptional companionship, does she offer to the breed? Does she have exceptional athleticism, exceptional conformation, exceptional breeding, etc., that you think would be a detriment to the breed if lost? Has she had medical tests to confirm she doesn't possess negative qualities that may pass on to her puppies?

For me, I am on the other side of the equation as far as age and have a puppy that is too young to breed. I have set very specific criteria/accomplishments for her that must be met before I consider her a breeding candidate. There are many people that breed dogs simply because they have them and an average dog tends to breed an average dog; unfortunately due to over population average dogs fill shelters. I think very highly of my dog and would like many more like her over the years, my wants may not be in the best interest of the her, her puppies, or the breed.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Broten218 said:


> any input would be awesome because I’m torn I want a litter from her specifically because she’s an amazing dog but I don’t want to breed her if she’s too old for a litter.


 What bloodlines does she carry? She sounds like a great dog. Go back to the same breeder and get another or research her lines and get another from those lines.


I would not breed an eight year old maiden girl. 

Sheilah


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Nope. Don't do it. We can never replace 'that one'. Having puppies is not fun for a bitch, it is painful and at her age, dangerous. Love her and keep her safe all rest of her life. Only the very best GSDs should be bred for the future generations.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Do not breed her. She is too old for a first time litter, and while she sounds like a great pet, she does not offer much else to the breed from what you have said. She is over standard. That right there is a reason she really shouldn't be bred. You also mention joint issues, and that is largely genetic, so she will pass that on to the puppies.

Are you prepared for her to die to have one of her puppies? With her age, complications are likely. My golden retriever is 7 1/2 and slowing down tremendously now. I can't imagine asking her to have a litter at this age, especially since she has never had one before. It would be much too hard on her. Please do not breed her, for her sake and for yours. 

I'm sorry to sound so negative; I really don't mean to be. You just need to be completely prepared for what may come if you decide to breed.


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## Broten218 (Aug 6, 2018)

thanks for the input every one ... I was already leaning towards no ... my plan is to see if the breeder is still doing litters and maybe I can at least get another with some of her genetics


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Nope. Don't do it. We can never replace 'that one'. Having puppies is not fun for a bitch, it is painful and at her age, dangerous. Love her and keep her safe all rest of her life. Only the very best GSDs should be bred for the future generations.


Some of this is just not true. Having puppies IS fun for lots of bitches. Yes, there is some pain involved. But that is measured in hours, not days or weeks. Bitches generally love puppies, especially their own. They love to play with them. Even 8 year old bitches. BUT, eight years old is far too old to breed a bitch for the first time. 

If she gets pregnant at all, far too many complications are much too likely to happen. It is similar to a woman having a first child at the age of sixty. 

Also, if only the best GSDs are bred for future generations, then the gene pool will shrink to such a level that all the recessives that are out there will come out in the puppies, and soon the breed will be no more. Canines should meet minimum requirements for breeding, which happens to be different depending on what the dogs are bred to do. But seriously limiting the number of animals bred will not make for a healthy breed.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Good call. You can bring your dog along to help when choosing your new puppy. It's a good idea to let your adult dog 'help' you raise puppy because they will let them know what is right and wrong in your household.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Its frustrating to see misinformation in threads.
I would never go to a breeder who isnt breeding top bitches within the breed standard. The bitches dont need to be world champions, but they better be capable in temperament and conformation of the breed standard. The more often a breeder gets away from that, the closer we get to losing the breed. Only bybs and money grubbers breed any bitch. 
No good breeder will allow you to bring a dog to see new puppies. For safety reasons. If they do, I'd walk the other way.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@selzer, there is too much room for disagreement or confusion in your post. What is “best?” I’m sure you are not telling someone to breed a flawed dog or one that is not from decent lines. I am against breeding random pets, but if a dog excels or is special in terms of lineage or ability, then maybe. I know your dogs have very stable temperaments so you are making qualified judgments when you decide to breed. If you had a dog that had health problems or a bad temperament, nervy, or something else, you would not breed her. There is no danger of the breed dying out. There is a danger of poorly bred dogs ruining lines.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@selzer, you wrote:

*Also, if only the best GSDs are bred for future generations, then the gene pool will shrink to such a level that all the recessives that are out there will come out in the puppies, and soon the breed will be no more. Canines should meet minimum requirements for breeding, which happens to be different depending on what the dogs are bred to do. But seriously limiting the number of animals bred will not make for a healthy breed.*

The gene pool of GSD's is not in any danger of shrinking. There are plenty of good, breed worthy GSD's out there that bring positive traits to the breed. 

I do agree that Canines should meet the minimum requirements for breeding, which unfortunately is different for many breeders. According to the AKC the dog only has to be over 8 months for a female and have an AKC pedigree. I suppose a cute female with a pulse and a heat cycle could be interpreted to be the minimum breeding requirement? Certainly, that is what many GSD breeders believe, based on the dogs that I see. 

How about both dogs having hip and elbow x rays certified by OFA, SV or Penn Hip before breeding as a start for a minimum. How about a conformation rating by an independent third party judge. For a minimum, how about an obedience, tracking, agility, or a nose work title? Something to show the breeder actually holds back and works with dogs from their breeding. An IPO title would be even better, but we all know that most GSD's are not capable of IPO. Also most breeders are not capable of putting the time and effort in the commitment of something like IPO. I understand what is involved in IPO and that is why I say for a minimum, an agility or OB title. Surely, that is not difficult to show a dog has some breed worthiness. 

Fact of the matter, in my opinion the vast majority of dogs being bred are really not that breed worthy. Few offer any special qualities besides a nice color or structure. That is not enough. Some have a stable temperament and decent structure, that is nothing special and not really breed worthy. Then there are the exceptional dogs that have an outstanding temperament, drive, work ethic and excellent structure and conformation. Those are the dogs that should be bred. 

If we start being more selective in the breeders we go to and the dogs we breed; the breed will benefit. Limiting the number of animals bred will absolutely make for a stronger and better breed. 

JMO, FWIW


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Canines should meet minimum requirements for breeding, *which happens to be different depending on what the dogs are bred to do.*


??? Breeding for a singular purpose would seem counterproductive to maintaining versatility in the breed. (isn't that how the breed ended up with extremes in drive, conformation, pet only bloodlines etc.?) 

IMHO minimum requirements for temperament, drive, work ethic etc. should be standards breeders strive for with or without the AKC mandating those requirements, and good breeders do just that. (AKC will never require breed surveys, working trials etc) 



selzer said:


> Also, if only the best GSDs are bred for future generations, then the gene pool will shrink to such a level that all the recessives that are out there will come out in the puppies, and soon the breed will be no more.


I don't believe there's a shortage of genetic diversity and good dogs in the breed but there is a shortage of breeders who are willing to invest the time and money it takes to prove a dogs genetic worth. What we have now is too many breeders who talk the talk but won't test to see if their dogs can walk the walk.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Ditto what everyone else said...don't breed. 1)You missed your window. She's too old now. 2)Unless she comes from an impeccable lineage....actually it doesn't matter, she's too old.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

It does hurt bitches to have puppies. Then the needle puppy teeth biting their teats. I would not want Inga to suffer and feel pain like that, not for some selfish wish of mine for her to have puppies. As good and beautiful as she is. No, not worth it. She will always be a Fraulein.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

My girls are 8 and for whatever reason neither cares much for puppies anymore. Maybe our new puppy is the stinky kid or something, idk. 

I saw an article on cloning dogs the other day, not sure if I can find it the though. It wasn’t anything special, just a fuzz piece. I believe there is a doc in South Korea who is doing this for the Hollywood types of something.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Texas A&M University clones animals. Some people had a pet Brahma bull they really loved. When he was old and dying, they took cells and had him cloned at A&M and the cell was implanted in a cow. A Brahma calf resulted. When the people took the calf home and turned him out, he went right to the exact bull wallow where their first bull used to sleep, and the calf slept there too. True story.

Myself, I know that a special one can never be replaced by cloning. The genes may be the same, but thats not all there is to it. Although it would be interesting to raise a clone of myself, because I never had any children. I would sure would have that kids number.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Texas A&M University clones animals. Some people had a pet Brahma bull they really loved. When he was old and dying, they took cells and had him cloned at A&M and the cell was implanted in a cow. A Brahma calf resulted. When the people took the calf home and turned him out, he went right to the exact bull wallow where their first bull used to sleep, and the calf slept there too. True story.
> 
> Myself, I know that a special one can never be replaced by cloning. The genes may be the same, but thats not all there is to it. Although it would be interesting to raise a clone of myself, because I never had any children. I would sure would have that kids number.


Cloning is still not perfected, the DNA is old and the telomeres have been worn away with time so when you clone the animal the DNA is still just as old as the original animal resulting in a short and sickly life for the poor clone.. check out the story of dolly the lamb.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Well sure it worked for the old bull at Texas A&M. And he was on his last legs.


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## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Cloning is still not perfected, the DNA is old and the telomeres have been worn away with time so when you clone the animal the DNA is still just as old as the original animal resulting in a short and sickly life for the poor clone.. check out the story of dolly the lamb.


Thanks for this. I always like learning something new so I just checked into this. You are right regarding Dolly the Sheep, though what you said has not stood true for subsequent generations or other cloning experiments. It seems some of the time the telomeres have issues and some of the time they don't.... not perfected though not impacted by this all the time. Below is one example, though I found many articles discussing it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ealthy-as-they-turn-9/?utm_term=.6ca73a3b9e33


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> @*selzer*, you wrote:
> 
> *Also, if only the best GSDs are bred for future generations, then the gene pool will shrink to such a level that all the recessives that are out there will come out in the puppies, and soon the breed will be no more. Canines should meet minimum requirements for breeding, which happens to be different depending on what the dogs are bred to do. But seriously limiting the number of animals bred will not make for a healthy breed.*
> 
> ...


But the objective is to maintain the breed, not to breed to excesses. When you breed for the dog having a special qualities/excellent structure and conformation (in someone's opinion) that is how we get ski slopes and no off-switch. What we need is to produce dogs to the standard, not to special anything, including color and temperament. 


I think why we see so many poorly bred shepherds, is because a lot of them are being bred by the millers -- those with 100 bitches or more, most of them with many breeds. The reason these folks are in business at all, is because we have as breed elitists joined forces with HSUS and PETA in making it villainous to breed dogs, and suggesting that only a few, very select individuals do this. It is unfortunate, but we have created a system where the worst of the worst are rewarded, and the worst dogs are being bred. Either you care nothing about what dogs are put together, or you are so overly cautious about any breeding decision that you "leave it to the experts." 


The "experts" are the people with 100 or 600 bitches. Because, in a way, they are experts. We have created this. Much better for pet owners to have a litter here or there with the help of their breeders, with their ordinary dogs, that are doing great, but are "nothing special" or "extra-ordinary."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> It does hurt bitches to have puppies. Then the needle puppy teeth biting their teats. I would not want Inga to suffer and feel pain like that, not for some selfish wish of mine for her to have puppies. As good and beautiful as she is. No, not worth it. She will always be a Fraulein.



You have a choice, and that is perfectly fine, but it doesn't hurt a bitch to have puppies, and the needle sharp puppy teeth really don't bother them like their nails, which if kept clipped do not hurt their dam either. Somehow dogs and wolves have managed to stay in existence without our help. With respect to how bitches totally react to THEIR puppies, I would say the benefits of a bitch having a litter far outweigh any day of pain in whelping or puppy teeth -- which any dam can communicate to her young not to bite. My bitches stay with their pups up through 8 weeks or longer if I have them longer -- Tinny is five months and has been with her dam since day 1 -- never a bloody teet. 


Having not been a breeder, you simply do not know about the relationship between dam and puppies.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> But the objective is to maintain the breed, not to breed to excesses. When you breed for the dog having a special qualities/excellent structure and conformation (in someone's opinion) that is how we get ski slopes and no off-switch. What we need is to produce dogs to the standard, not to special anything, including color and temperament.
> And you can't just say being a breeder makes you more aware than the next person. That's just assuming and elitist.
> 
> I think why we see so many poorly bred shepherds, is because a lot of them are being bred by the millers -- those with 100 bitches or more, most of them with many breeds. The reason these folks are in business at all, is because we have as breed elitists joined forces with HSUS and PETA in making it villainous to breed dogs, and suggesting that only a few, very select individuals do this. It is unfortunate, but we have created a system where the worst of the worst are rewarded, and the worst dogs are being bred. Either you care nothing about what dogs are put together, or you are so overly cautious about any breeding decision that you "leave it to the experts."
> ...


Seltzer, I disagree. In my opinion, breeding should be to the betterment of the breed. Breeding two average or below average dogs does not bring that. Breeding two top dogs that are proven does. And there is enough room to not be in the extremes. Two solid dogs one lacking structurally, but a top working dog, bred to a structurally sound slightly above average should result in better puppies. Adding to the breed, not leaving it stagnant.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Having not been a breeder, you simply do not know about the relationship between dam and puppies.


 Having not been a mother, I think you are over romanticizing the relationship. A lot of the maternal response you see as a breeder is coming from a wash of hormones. Believe me, I highly doubt any of the non-breeding dogs I have known during my lifetime lay around mourning the lack of puppies in their life.
Sheilah


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Some of this is just not true. Having puppies IS fun for lots of bitches. Yes, there is some pain involved. But that is measured in hours, not days or weeks. Bitches generally love puppies, especially their own. They love to play with them. Even 8 year old bitches. BUT, eight years old is far too old to breed a bitch for the first time.
> 
> If she gets pregnant at all, far too many complications are much too likely to happen. It is similar to a woman having a first child at the age of sixty.
> 
> Also, if only the best GSDs are bred for future generations, then the gene pool will shrink to such a level that all the recessives that are out there will come out in the puppies, and soon the breed will be no more. Canines should meet minimum requirements for breeding, which happens to be different depending on what the dogs are bred to do. But seriously limiting the number of animals bred will not make for a healthy breed.




I don’t know, seltzer, I’m not srue about minimum requirements. I do think that breeders should be striving toward the best they can do. That doesn’t mean only the cream of the crop but definitely not just a bare minimum. I would not go to a breeder who was just going what they had to get by or who was not breeding to standard. That doesn’t seem likely to improve the breed either, it seems likely to just water it down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Oh and on topic op, don’t bred your 8yo. That’s too old anyway IMO, whether she’s had past litters or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've seen a bitch look and mourn for her sold pups, it was very clear she was missing them. I have a son and his mother and she still lays near him and grooms him. He's 4 now. So, yes indeed, there can be familial relationships- another interesting one was he never tried to mount her when she was in heat- I never would have allowed mating to occur, but he never tried. Why do you think wolves aren't super-duper inbred? Similar constraints, I'm sure. I think an intact bitch, a normal one, does enjoy having pups. Have you seen a mama dog play with her babies? It's one of the nicest parts of breeding. 

In this case, no, the bitch should not be bred. She is far too old, has no health or temperament tests, and a good stud would be difficult to find anyway. The too old part being key. However, I do think most intact females actually do enjoy raising a litter. 

That said, if a bitch has a good temperament, health tests are clear, and she has good working drives and no titles, I have no problem with breeding her- I've purchased pups from bitches with everything but a title, and been very happy with them. I do want a title on the stud, or to be able to really get to know the stud and his bloodlines if for whatever reason he isn't titled- and there can be exceptions.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Broten218 said:


> I have a 8 year old female she is slightly larger than average for a female but she is in good shape, she can play all day, loves to swim and of course herds our family around . She’s never been bred before but I’d like to have one litter from her and I’m just wondering if 8 is too old for a healthy German Shepherd ... she has times where she will play too hard or too long and she will get sore but I have her on joint supplements to help with some of that .. any input would be awesome because I’m torn I want a litter from her specifically because she’s an amazing dog but I don’t want to breed her if she’s too old for a litter. PS I’m not trying to do it for money or any other reason I love my dog and just want another dog with some of her in it ... also I’d love to have the experience ... my father did litters when he was younger so following in his foot steps feels like the right thing to do


She is so beautiful and I totally understand you wanting a pup off her while you can get one. I have full intentions of "loaning" Ranger out to a breeder for a pup off of his line after Ranger crosses the bridge. I would say at 8 years old that only you know if she could handle it. Kudos for you though keeping her intact so that you at least have that option. I hope things go your way and you get a pup off this beautiful girl.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Broten218 said:


> thanks for the input every one ... I was already leaning towards no ... my plan is to see if the breeder is still doing litters and maybe I can at least get another with some of her genetics


I didn't see this for my previous post. I know I wouldn't take a million $ for Ranger but I was fortunate enough to get a full brother that was born 3 days after Scout died. Yes, they are different dogs but I am able to see enough of Scout in Ranger that it's like I still have a piece of my heart given back to me. If you really have a good dog that you have made the connection with ..... Just sayin' I would do it. 


Scout then Ranger


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Shooter, you are not taking the dog's health risks into account by supporting breeding a senior dog. I think it is selfish to put that dog at risk.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is way too risky for the bitch, and heart-breaking to lose her or even just the puppies. I wouldn't breed a bitch for the first time that was 8 years old. I do have an eight year old bitch who had her last litter 5 months ago when she was still 7. But, her health/condition is so good, I have to literally sit on my hands because I want to breed her again so badly. 

*** Let it go. ADMIN**


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Shooter, you are not taking the dog's health risks into account by supporting breeding a senior dog. I think it is selfish to put that dog at risk.


If this female was 3 you would still have the same folks against her having pups anyway because in their minds the op doesn't have enough sense for her shep to have pups.

I hope the op has figured out that she will never be informed or supported in breeding pups (on germanshepherds.com).


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Shooter, maybe, maybe not. Whatever people might say about breeding a 3 year old, it doesn’t change the risk of losing an 8 year old to her 1st litter at that age. The OP posted *asking* for input to help her make a decision, and people responded. She didn’t ask for people to respond only if they think she should breed her bitch.

OP, sounds like you’ve made the decision not to breed her. I personally wouldn’t risk losing her at this age, either, though I completely understand the desire to preserve her. I hope you do get another pup with her genetics. You mention you are also interested in the experience of breeding. If you get another pup, maybe her breeder would be willing to mentor you in breeding girl #2?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Shooter said:


> If this female was 3 you would still have the same folks against her having pups anyway because in their minds the op doesn't have enough sense for her shep to have pups.
> 
> I hope the op has figured out that she will never be informed or supported in breeding pups (on germanshepherds.com).


Shooter there is a very real risk of this female or puppies dying or having other health complications. It isn't just a don't breed because you aren't an expert. This could actually go very badly and end up with the owner losing the female and the puppies and having nothing to show for it along with the heartbreak of losing them all. Or just losing the mother and having to bottle feed all the puppies, or losing all the puppies and having put the female through that for no reason. Yes there are risks in all pregnancies but for this being her first litter at 8 years old it's a huge risk. 

The owners safest bet would be to get a new puppy with the same bloodlines and then if they want to continue the bloodlines would be at least get her health tested and then breed her at a younger and safer age.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OP. There is a huge risk in breeding an 8 year old female no matter if she is a maiden or not. I even get nervous when I breed a bitch that is 4.5-5 as a first timer. My concern is for the welfare of your female.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I have never had an opps litter from all the bitches I have known in my life. However, the home where I grew up we did have two litters of mongrels and both of those females cried out heartbreakingly in labor pain. When I used to be a vet tech and I assisted with dystochias and emergency C sections. As a nurse I have assisited with unmedicated human births and I know terrible pain when I see it. I guess your bitches are multiparas, that is, have had many litters its not so bad. But golly, I would not have Inga go though that for any reason. I would get the morning after pill for dogs if she were bred by a male coyote, the only male canid around here.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Beau's Mom said:


> Shooter, maybe, maybe not. Whatever people might say about breeding a 3 year old, it doesn’t change the risk of losing an 8 year old to her 1st litter at that age. The OP posted *asking* for input to help her make a decision, and people responded. She didn’t ask for people to respond only if they think she should breed her bitch.
> 
> OP, sounds like you’ve made the decision not to breed her. I personally wouldn’t risk losing her at this age, either, though I completely understand the desire to preserve her. I hope you do get another pup with her genetics. You mention you are also interested in the experience of breeding. If you get another pup, maybe her breeder would be willing to mentor you in breeding girl #2?




I have decided that I'm going to jump in on every thread when a poor new person to this forum innocently asks about breeding. I'm ready to be their lightning rod. That is the 2nd time I have seen someone on their very 1st post wade in to that conversation. God help them please. I love Shepherds more than I love my own life but I hate it when some poor soul dares to mention breeding for some pups. This "dont breed your shep because you are too stupid" attitude just makes me so mad I could spit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not one person on this thread said the OP was stupid. They, as in many breeders, said she was to old to have a litter safely. Which, btw, was the question. The question was NOT, 'if my bitch was 3 would it have been safe to breed."

And I have seen many threads where people came here asking how to be a breeder and got great advice. Perhaps you should read more than 2 threads.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Shooter said:


> I have decided that I'm going to jump in on every thread when a poor new person to this forum innocently asks about breeding. I'm ready to be their lightning rod. That is the 2nd time I have seen someone on their very 1st post wade in to that conversation. God help them please. I love Shepherds more than I love my own life but I hate it when some poor soul dares to mention breeding for some pups. This "dont breed your shep because you are too stupid" attitude just makes me so mad I could spit.


No one called the OP "stupid." The whole point many are trying to make, including myself is that not every GSD needs to be bred, nor should it be bred. Breeding a dog because it is cute or I want another one just like my dog is not a very good reason to breed a dog. This is just the way it is. There are many dogs that should be bred and many that while being excellent pets, loyal companions, Police K-9's, top sport dogs or show dogs should not be bred. 

While I believe that dogs need to be health tested, titled and have working ability before they should be bred or eligible to be bred, this does not mean they _should_ be bred or are truly breed worthy. Is an AKC Gran Victor automatically breed worthy? Is a top IPO dog or a Police K-9 automatically breed worthy? Absolutely not! Just as a pet is not automatically breed worthy because it's "special" to it's owner. I've owned many GSD's over the years, some very incredible animals. I've owed males that I titled to IPO 3 and were V rated in conformation with tremendous working ability and drive. I never bred him. 

I had Boomer, a National level IPO dog and fantastic Dual Purpose Patrol / Narcotics and SWAT K-9. A truly magnificent animal. A GSD that was amazing on so many levels, quite possibly the greatest dog that I have ever been fortunate enough to own. An outstanding Police Dog. A very high level dog and I would have liked to have a puppy out of him, that would have been just like him. I never bred Boomer, even though compared to the vast majority of GSD's that I see he was a truly superb animal. His pedigree was outstanding and I had requests to breed him, I always said no. This was not an average GSD by any means, and I felt he did not need to be bred. 

Not every GSD needs to be bred, and most certainly not every GSD should be bred.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You are speaking of Boomer in the past tense?


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

He doesn't get it, people. No point in trying to explain it to Shooter. He already says he wants to start fights with everyone concerning this issue. By arguing with him, you're only falling into his trap. All you're doing is giving him the attention that he craves.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are speaking of Boomer in the past tense?


Yes, unfortunately Boomer passed away in May. I really miss him, he was an amazing dog and truly my best friend. He made me laugh, kept me safe and took lots of bad guys, guns and dope off the street. He was a once in a lifetime dog. I had him from 7 weeks to over 12 years and it was not nearly long enough, forever would not have been long enough. I loved that dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am so sorry to hear this. He was a great dog. I really enjoyed hearing about him through the years. My sincerest condolences Jim. Run free Boomer! Know you were loved!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Really sorry to hear you lost him. I greatly enjoyed your stories about him, he sounds like a wonderful partner.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I’m so sorry, Jim. It always sounded like he epitomized what a good working GSD should be.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

So sorry to hear you lost Boomer.He was an amazing partner and companion.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

On the "harshness" of the board:
First time posters might well consider researching their proposed topic on the board to get a feel for the responses they may get. Then the post might read something like: "I'm debating this and thinking long and hard about it as the general wisdom here seems to (in this case) support breeding after health testing and achieving some sort of minimal titles. If I were to consider breeding a maiden bitch at 8, if she were health tested and managed to get at least a Novice title in AKC or an IPO 1 or at least a BH in that sport, what cautions do you offer?" 

So when someone jumps in with an "I love my dog and I want to do this, whaddya think?" without a sense of where the board will go --- yes, it can seem harsh but just a wee bit of research to prepare yourself ... So do I feel bad for the newbie that isn't looking where they step and oh my they are in some smelly stuff? Yeah well probably not. Gotta look where you are going.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Someone who wants to breed their pet dog just to get a puppy for themselves is completely selfish, IMO. You want a dog. Great. What about the other 5-10 puppies in the litter? Will they find good homes that will keep them and take good care of them for life? Just because you have a great connection with your pet does not mean that a direct descendent of that dog will be anything like the parent you so love. Unfortunately, that is not how genetics work. If you want a dog, go get another one. Don't add 10 more puppies when there are already thousands of pet dogs in shelters and on Craigslist that are no longer wanted. I get that you have a great connection with your current dog, but how often do people have dogs that they *don't* have a good or great connection with? Every dog is special, but that does not mean every dog should be bred.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thank you, for the condolences on Boomer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shooter said:


> If this female was 3 you would still have the same folks against her having pups anyway because in their minds the op doesn't have enough sense for her shep to have pups.
> 
> I hope the op has figured out that she will never be informed or supported in breeding pups (on germanshepherds.com).


Shooter, this is just incorrect. I personally am often on the other side of this equation. This time, though, the bitch is in danger. The rule of thumb is if they do not have their first litter by five years old, then do not breed them. I have a five year old bitch out of 2 imports who I have in with my dog, hoping. But, once she hits her birthday, that's it, no more trying. It is not worth it to risk a fine bitch for puppies that will die anyway without her. 

There is no law against breeding. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, and you don't have to be independently wealthy. What will happen to the other 4 to 14 puppies you produce? They will probably go to great pet homes that you will find. It will not wreck the breed. It will not cause hundreds of dogs in shelter to die. In fact, I would rather most people got their dogs from people who keep their bitches as pets, rather than large breeding operations which feed pet stores and sell over the internet. 

I also think that having a litter does improve bitches. I am not saying that a spayed pet isn't wonderful, or an intact bitch who hasn't been bred can't be a great pet -- MOST of my bitches have never been bred, and I love them to death. But whatever. I still think having a litter makes a change in bitches and I generally like that change. 

That doesn't mean I would breed a bitch that was 8 years old for the first time or 3 years old just to get that change. If the bitch is not breed-worthy, or too old, then I do not breed them. And, yes, I have my own criteria as to breed-worthiness and I don't have to answer to anyone on that.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Just going to say breeding for the first time a 8 year old female has many risks. 

So sorry to hear about Boomer he sounded like he was a one of a kind dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Jenny720, thank you! He was a once in a lifetime dog.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

selzer said:


> Shooter, this is just incorrect. I personally am often on the other side of this equation. This time, though, the bitch is in danger. The rule of thumb is if they do not have their first litter by five years old, then do not breed them. I have a five year old bitch out of 2 imports who I have in with my dog, hoping. But, once she hits her birthday, that's it, no more trying. It is not worth it to risk a fine bitch for puppies that will die anyway without her.
> 
> There is no law against breeding. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, and you don't have to be independently wealthy. What will happen to the other 4 to 14 puppies you produce? They will probably go to great pet homes that you will find. It will not wreck the breed. It will not cause hundreds of dogs in shelter to die. In fact, I would rather most people got their dogs from people who keep their bitches as pets, rather than large breeding operations which feed pet stores and sell over the internet.
> 
> ...


Sue, there are plenty of breeders who breed to the standard and train and title thier dogs who also keep them as pets. There IS an inbetween. Not every breeder has a huge commercial operation, and not every larger breeding operation is puppy mill. In your scenario, yes, I’d rather get a byb dog over a puppy mill dog, but thankfully those are not my only choices.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GypsyGhost said:


> Sue, there are plenty of breeders who breed to the standard and train and title thier dogs who also keep them as pets. There IS an inbetween. Not every breeder has a huge commercial operation, and not every larger breeding operation is puppy mill. In your scenario, yes, I’d rather get a byb dog over a puppy mill dog, but thankfully those are not my only choices.


Of course there is an in-between. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of those breeders are the scum of the earth in somebody's book. Every one of them started somewhere, and got a ton of flack just for thinking about breeding their bitch. Everyone of them heard the arguments about dogs dying in shelters and that their bitch may die and that they are selfish for just thinking about it because of the pain and hardship on the bitch. 

Some of these awesome breeders who title their dogs and breed to the standard today, will be the millers or hoarders down the road. Some of the folks that start out as BYBs will educate themselves and make better decisions about breeding as experience and education nudge them in the way that they should go to serve the market that they choose. 

What I am saying is that I would not be upset if more folks would consider having a litter, rather than less folks. Certainly, in an ideal world, a person knows that they are interested in breeding when they purchase their puppy and gets the right kind of papers, the right registration organization, studies the pedigree BEFORE purchasing, and purchases the dog based on the health and longevity and temperament of the lines. And then, they spend two years watching the puppy grow into an adult before making a final decision on whether or not the dog should be bred. 

Whatever, this is all so... We are not all stupid. We do know that many, perhaps most breeders keep their bitches as pets. Some let their bitches live as pets in other people's homes and only orchestrate the breeding, and whelp, raise, and sell the puppies. Others have small operations where the dogs are known by name, worked with, titled, etc. But there are huge operations out there as well, and while these are a minority of breeders, they produce maybe the majority of dogs sold each year. My point was simply that shooter was suggesting that a bitch could poop solid gold poops on this forum and not be breed-worthy. For some folks that would be true. But there have been many of us that have encouraged folks, not to breed willy-nilly, but to do it with intelligence, with as much knowledge as possible, by building a structure of testing their bitch against, by learning how to find the best homes, and so forth. 

The GSD breed will be unrecognizeable in a few short dog-generations, if new people do not go into dog breeding. The right answer is NOT to always leave it to the experts. The experts retire or die, and new experts have to fill their shoes, else all we have left are the breeders who have hundreds.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

selzer said:


> Shooter, this is just incorrect. I personally am often on the other side of this equation. This time, though, the bitch is in danger. The rule of thumb is if they do not have their first litter by five years old, then do not breed them. I have a five year old bitch out of 2 imports who I have in with my dog, hoping. But, once she hits her birthday, that's it, no more trying. It is not worth it to risk a fine bitch for puppies that will die anyway without her.
> 
> There is no law against breeding. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, and you don't have to be independently wealthy. What will happen to the other 4 to 14 puppies you produce? They will probably go to great pet homes that you will find. It will not wreck the breed. It will not cause hundreds of dogs in shelter to die. In fact, I would rather most people got their dogs from people who keep their bitches as pets, rather than large breeding operations which feed pet stores and sell over the internet.
> 
> ...


Technically, I agree with everything that you just stated for my personal reasoning. Do I personally want to breed Ranger now? Nope, as of now in my stingy little mind I dont think there are potential owners worthy of any of his offspring. Just my self centered thinking. The day is coming though when I see his mortality coming that I will breed him. I just dont want to be too old (or I do? God help me) to have one of his offspring. I hope to be in my mid 60s when that decision has to be made. 

Ya know, everybody in your life will betray you EXCEPT your dog. Thats why I want to keep a good dog's line till my last breath.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, unfortunately Boomer passed away in May. I really miss him, he was an amazing dog and truly my best friend. He made me laugh, kept me safe and took lots of bad guys, guns and dope off the street. He was a once in a lifetime dog. I had him from 7 weeks to over 12 years and it was not nearly long enough, forever would not have been long enough. I loved that dog.


Slam, I am so sorry for your loss of Boomer. Man that is so tough.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, unfortunately Boomer passed away in May. I really miss him, he was an amazing dog and truly my best friend. He made me laugh, kept me safe and took lots of bad guys, guns and dope off the street. He was a once in a lifetime dog. I had him from 7 weeks to over 12 years and it was not nearly long enough, forever would not have been long enough. I loved that dog.


Very sorry to hear this, my condolences.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

selzer said:


> Of course there is an in-between. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of those breeders are the scum of the earth in somebody's book. Every one of them started somewhere, and got a ton of flack just for thinking about breeding their bitch. Everyone of them heard the arguments about dogs dying in shelters and that their bitch may die and that they are selfish for just thinking about it because of the pain and hardship on the bitch.
> 
> Some of these awesome breeders who title their dogs and breed to the standard today, will be the millers or hoarders down the road. Some of the folks that start out as BYBs will educate themselves and make better decisions about breeding as experience and education nudge them in the way that they should go to serve the market that they choose.
> 
> ...


I recognize the flaws in my sentence fragments. Thank you for a well organized post. If I had half a brain I would post better posts than posting piss and vinegar.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thank you, for the condolences on Boomer. I appreciate it.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

selzer said:


> Of course there is an in-between. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of those breeders are the scum of the earth in somebody's book. Every one of them started somewhere, and got a ton of flack just for thinking about breeding their bitch. Everyone of them heard the arguments about dogs dying in shelters and that their bitch may die and that they are selfish for just thinking about it because of the pain and hardship on the bitch.
> 
> Some of these awesome breeders who title their dogs and breed to the standard today, will be the millers or hoarders down the road. Some of the folks that start out as BYBs will educate themselves and make better decisions about breeding as experience and education nudge them in the way that they should go to serve the market that they choose.
> 
> ...


Ok then? I guess I just don’t see the problem with encouraging people to breed only after their dogs have proven they should be bred. If you put in the work to really know your dog, and train your dog, and dare I hope, title your dog in _something_, and the dog passes health tests, then by all means ask for advice (if you are a first timer) and breed your dog. If your dog is a nice pet and you have never put the pressure of competition, _any competition _, on them, well, then maybe go back to the breeder you got him or her from and ask for another. I truly don’t see the problem with discouraging people from breeding willy nilly. If you think that is not going to do any damage to the breed, then we disagree there. I’m all for new people breeding. But put in the work and talk to people who know more than you do first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ok then? I guess I just don’t see the problem with encouraging people to breed only after their dogs have proven they should be bred. If you put in the work to really know your dog, and train your dog, and dare I hope, title your dog in _something_, and the dog passes health tests, then by all means ask for advice (if you are a first timer) and breed your dog. If your dog is a nice pet and you have never put the pressure of competition, _any competition _, on them, well, then maybe go back to the breeder you got him or her from and ask for another. I truly don’t see the problem with discouraging people from breeding willy nilly. If you think that is not going to do any damage to the breed, then we disagree there. I’m all for new people breeding. But put in the work and talk to people who know more than you do first.


I think that the problem shooter was discussing was that there is no in-between for the folks here -- "if the bitch was 3 years old..." It is the same tired arguments, the same bashing for folks. I challenge folks to encourage people to take manageable steps to become the breeders we need for the preservation of the breed -- not for the steepest ski slopes or the highest drives or the straightest backs, or excellent rated hips. You catch more flies with honey. If we would embrace folks and make little suggestions here and there, maybe you get a better product in the end. When you say things like, "your bitch will die!" "The best thing to happen will be for your bitch to die and all her pups" (yeah someone said that to me 13 years ago here). "All the dogs in shelters will die because of you." and so forth. People will just think you all don't know what you are talking about, are extremists, and will do what they want to do. 

And we wonder why so many folks wait until pups are coming, like in hours, before they ask for help. And we wonder why people say, "oh my son was supposed to let them out separately, but he unhooked my boy's kennel when the girl was out, and whoops! 

It is more respectable here to have an oops litter than to breed your dogs -- that is a problem. But whatever. At the end of the day, most of the puppies produced each year are pets, owned by folks that do not want or need or in some cases know what the different lines are, or whether their dog is well bred or poorly bred in structure or temperament. If we can improve the dogs these folks buy by _not _alienating folks out the gate, then maybe we have done a good thing. Maybe.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ok then? I guess I just don’t see the problem with encouraging people to breed only after their dogs have proven they should be bred. If you put in the work to really know your dog, and train your dog, and dare I hope, title your dog in _something_, and the dog passes health tests, then by all means ask for advice (if you are a first timer) and breed your dog. If your dog is a nice pet and you have never put the pressure of competition, _any competition _, on them, well, then maybe go back to the breeder you got him or her from and ask for another. I truly don’t see the problem with discouraging people from breeding willy nilly. If you think that is not going to do any damage to the breed, then we disagree there. I’m all for new people breeding. But put in the work and talk to people who know more than you do first.




Right. It makes sense to learn from those who have gone before you, if you truly want to breed and do a good hob. I mean, if you want to bred potatoes, then I guess maybe proving your dogs in conformation and high level performance or IPO wouldn’t be as much of a priority, but at that point if you aren’t bothering, are they really German Shepherds? Or are they Mr. and Mrs. Potatohead with a black and tan saddle patterns? I see nothing wrong with discouraging that kind of sloppiness. We don’t need anymore black and Tanya potatoes running around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think that the problem shooter was discussing was that there is no in-between for the folks here -- "if the bitch was 3 years old..." It is the same tired arguments, the same bashing for folks. I challenge folks to encourage people to take manageable steps to become the breeders we need for the preservation of the breed -- not for the steepest ski slopes or the highest drives or the straightest backs, or excellent rated hips. You catch more flies with honey. If we would embrace folks and make little suggestions here and there, maybe you get a better product in the end. When you say things like, "your bitch will die!" "The best thing to happen will be for your bitch to die and all her pups" (yeah someone said that to me 13 years ago here). "All the dogs in shelters will die because of you." and so forth. People will just think you all don't know what you are talking about, are extremists, and will do what they want to do.
> 
> And we wonder why so many folks wait until pups are coming, like in hours, before they ask for help. And we wonder why people say, "oh my son was supposed to let them out separately, but he unhooked my boy's kennel when the girl was out, and whoops!
> 
> It is more respectable here to have an oops litter than to breed your dogs -- that is a problem. But whatever. At the end of the day, most of the puppies produced each year are pets, owned by folks that do not want or need or in some cases know what the different lines are, or whether their dog is well bred or poorly bred in structure or temperament. If we can improve the dogs these folks buy by _not _alienating folks out the gate, then maybe we have done a good thing. Maybe.


The issue I have with all of this is the end product. The multitudes of dogs that have gone through my house with health issues and temperament problems because some possibly nice person wanted a dog to have puppies. 
No one mentions health testing to them until they have produced a litter or twelve and then they do it but meanwhile how many people got stuck with puppies that are going to die from things that could have been stopped by genetic screening and pedigree knowledge. 
It's all fine and well to say encourage nonsense breeding until some kid gets attacked by their own dog, or the neighbors, because someone produced genetically unstable dogs. 
What about the person who thinks they can sell the pups and then can't so they all go to a shelter or a pound and IF they are fortunate enough to make it out they have spent critical development time in the worst possible environment.
I probably can't stop all the irresponsible breeding in the world, but that does not mean I should stop trying. If each of us talked one person out of breeding one poor example think of the impact. 

It doesn't matter if they are "just pets", they still need to somewhat conform to standard. I don't think they all need to be superstars, but it's pretty bad to tell people to aim low.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> The issue I have with all of this is the end product. The multitudes of dogs that have gone through my house with health issues and temperament problems because some possibly nice person wanted a dog to have puppies.
> No one mentions health testing to them until they have produced a litter or twelve and then they do it but meanwhile how many people got stuck with puppies that are going to die from things that could have been stopped by genetic screening and pedigree knowledge.
> It's all fine and well to say encourage nonsense breeding until some kid gets attacked by their own dog, or the neighbors, because someone produced genetically unstable dogs.
> What about the person who thinks they can sell the pups and then can't so they all go to a shelter or a pound and IF they are fortunate enough to make it out they have spent critical development time in the worst possible environment.
> ...


No one is encouraging folks to "aim low." But caring people who have a beloved bitch are probably going to do a better job at whelping and raising a litter of pups than the people who care for bitch 592 in the tiny pen where the pups are separated as soon as possible from the bitch and from each other. They may do an even better job if folks stop being so judgmental and give them meaningful advice. And they may have less trouble believing us when we are not spewing flat out lies to promote our own agendas.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Right. It makes sense to learn from those who have gone before you, if you truly want to breed and do a good hob. I mean, if you want to bred potatoes, then I guess maybe proving your dogs in conformation and high level performance or IPO wouldn’t be as much of a priority, but at that point if you aren’t bothering, are they really German Shepherds? Or are they Mr. and Mrs. Potatohead with a black and tan saddle patterns? I see nothing wrong with discouraging that kind of sloppiness. We don’t need anymore black and Tanya potatoes running around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not sure how you breed potatoes. I always thought you cut them up, leaving several eyes in each and bury them in soil, and they will make potatoes just like themselves. 

If you are suggesting that lines other than working line German Shepherds are not real, that is the major problem with the breed today, folks that the line they favor is the end-all, that all the other lines should conform to what their line does, who their line is. Most of us think that the lines we favor are the "real" GSDs, though most of us won't admit that. There is room in this breed for all flavors of GSDs, and all flavors can easily conform to the written standard, which does include temperament.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

If you look at the demise of breeds, its usually by breeders that breed for pets. Not the passionate show people. Not the passionate working people. Its the pet people. The ones who have a nice dog and want one just like him/her. Theres a reason dogs should be proven before bred. 
Here are two gsds bred by people looking to just make pets, both btw are nervy and struggle:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> If you look at the demise of breeds, its usually by breeders that breed for pets. Not the passionate show people. Not the passionate working people. Its the pet people. The ones who have a nice dog and want one just like him/her. Theres a reason dogs should be proven before bred.
> Here are two gsds bred by people looking to just make pets, both btw are nervy and struggle:


The problem with this reasoning is that the breed guardians, the people who work their dogs, and the conformation folks, they aren't buying from pet-breeders. The pet breeder's dogs are not behind the conformation breeder's dogs that are producing dogs with things like MegE, EPI, HD, ED, DM, weak ears, curly tails, epilepsy, and super-studs that die at 9 or younger, litters of 4-5? Working dog owners, k-9 handlers, they aren't buying their dogs from pet people. So, how can we blame pet people for the demise of the breed. Police are going to mals and Dutch shepherds, not because of pet breeders, but because the guardians of the breed are producing dogs that no longer fit the bill that they want. 

Those dogs at crufts that can barely walk, not a single back-yard-bred dog in the pedigree.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> The problem with this reasoning is that the breed guardians, the people who work their dogs, and the conformation folks, they aren't buying from pet-breeders. *The pet breeder's dogs are not behind the conformation breeder's dogs that are producing dogs with things like MegE, EPI, HD, ED, DM, weak ears, curly tails, epilepsy, and super-studs that die at 9 or younger, litters of 4-5*? Working dog owners, k-9 handlers, they aren't buying their dogs from pet people. So, how can we blame pet people for the demise of the breed. Police are going to mals and Dutch shepherds, not because of pet breeders, but because the guardians of the breed are producing dogs that no longer fit the bill that they want.
> 
> Those dogs at crufts that can barely walk, not a single back-yard-bred dog in the pedigree.


Going to interject again, my BYB dog died of DM. I have another "pet bred" sleeping beside me with a laundry list of health issues including probable HD and what looks very much like the early stages of DM. Nice pets, would really have sucked if the kids had still been very little watching Sabs go out like that. 
Police here, including the RCMP, use GSD's almost entirely. Maybe the US PD's should ask about our breeding programs. All of our private security uses GSD's predominantly as well.


As far as Crufts? Showlines have issues, all the showlines. But to my mind the issue is less with the breeders then with the judges who are giving the wins. I believe, at least with the ASL breeders, the problem is recognized and they are working towards correcting it. 

Your argument simply does not hold water, and has nothing to do with the OP, who by the way appreciated the advice and isn't breeding. An 8 year old maiden bitch is hugely at risk. Had she been younger the advice would have been train, title and health test.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> If you look at the demise of breeds, its usually by breeders that breed for pets. Not the passionate show people. Not the passionate working people. Its the pet people. The ones who have a nice dog and want one just like him/her. Theres a reason dogs should be proven before bred.
> Here are two gsds bred by people looking to just make pets, both btw are nervy and struggle:



Yes that is definitely pet breeding, but look at that sweet face!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> If you look at the demise of breeds, its usually by breeders that breed for pets. Not the passionate show people. Not the passionate working people. Its the pet people. The ones who have a nice dog and want one just like him/her. Theres a reason dogs should be proven before bred.
> Here are two gsds bred by people looking to just make pets, both btw are nervy and struggle:



The GSD, like many other breeds, are working dogs. If you start breeding them for pets, you start to lose purpose, hence lose breed.

No breed of dog is, nor should they be, the right pet for every family. So when breeders start breeding for pets, just what exactly are they trying to breed? What is pet quality for one family is not necessarily what the next family is looking for in a pet. 

If they are not breeding to the standard, then they are not breeding for those who want a GSD, just one that looks like one. Even that is questionable because if they aren't breeding for proper temperament, then why should anybody have reason to believe that they are breeding conformationally to the standard? Does not seem odd that if they aren't breeding for one, they probably aren't doing the other.

When breeders breed to the standard, at least we know what to expect. That doesn't mean there won't be a variance, but at least we know what was the goal. When so many people are breeding for their own interpretation of what a pet should be, that can run full spectrum from a junk yard dog to a dog whose only coping mechanism is to roll on it's back and submissive urinate. The variables both temperamentally and physically are just too unpredictable with pet breedings as their is no uniformity in goals.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> If you are suggesting that lines other than working line German Shepherds are not real, that is the major problem with the breed today, folks that the line they favor is the end-all, that all the other lines should conform to what their line does, who their line is. Most of us think that the lines we favor are the "real" GSDs, though most of us won't admit that. There is room in this breed for all flavors of GSDs, and all flavors can easily conform to the written standard, which does include temperament.


Nah.... she has a very nice American showline dog. 

I think one of the greatest losses in our breed, due to "pet" breeding, is to the new and ambitious breed enthusiast.

How many of us, who participate or compete in some sport or other, have watched a new person struggle with a dog lacking work ethic, lacking athleticism, lacking nerve?

How many have BEEN that person?

When breeding dogs aren't throughly tested and proven, the puppies are less likely to be capable of work or performance. 

Sure, in some homes that will never matter. But what about the "pet" home that decides to try dog sports, or NEEDS their dog to work in some capacity?

And then that enthusiastic "pet" owner finds out that their "pet" bred GSD is not really capable of much. The good "pet" owner is still going love their dog, they aren't going to go dump it by the roadside. But what a loss to the breed, and what a loss to the small population of dog sport enthusiasts (aka - the up-and-coming dedicated owners and potential breeders of tomorrow). 

We *do* need more people in *all* dog venues. And those new people to the breed should have a dog that is capable of what they ask - whether they remain as beloved pets, or if the owner decides to ask for more from the dog. 

A German Shepherd should be capable of diverse jobs and sports, and should have genetic work ethic bred in the bone. The only way to know that is to test (work/trial/third party judge) the dogs before breeding them.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am not sure how you breed potatoes. I always thought you cut them up, leaving several eyes in each and bury them in soil, and they will make potatoes just like themselves.
> 
> If you are suggesting that lines other than working line German Shepherds are not real, that is the major problem with the breed today, folks that the line they favor is the end-all, that all the other lines should conform to what their line does, who their line is. Most of us think that the lines we favor are the "real" GSDs, though most of us won't admit that. There is room in this breed for all flavors of GSDs, and all flavors can easily conform to the written standard, which does include temperament.




My apologize, I can see how my post would read that way, but it appears my point took a bit of a high wind overhead.

My dog is, for the record, an American show like. She is performance titled. I very much prefer American show lines as long as they are not potatoes.

Anyway. No, I actually threw IPO in my list because I didn’t want to make it sound like my favorites line was the only legitimate one because I don’t think for a minute that the Americanshow line is the only legit kind.

My real point was that unless you are testing your stock, and I mean really testing, you are aimed squarely at mediocrity or worse. No matter the line type. (Yes I think American lone breeders need to do performance testing with their stock too if at all possible.) Mediocrity can mean a nervy mess or a potato, and either way it can mean unhealthy. Mediocrity in a working breed means a dog that for whatever reason cannot do the things. Aka a potato.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I do think there is a fair amount of snobbery about breeding dogs. Its ironic that the best dogs from the best breeders can't be bred because the breeder won't usually lift limited registration so the ones solid freely with full registration are the crappiest. 

I do understand why breeders do this but it also does mean the ones that are easy to breed are crap. 

There does seem to be a prevailing attitude that only the best of the best of the longest standing people involved with gsds should be allowed to breed and everyone else should be ashamed of themselves.

I personally would like to see more of a middle ground where people would be more encouraged and helped by people with more knowledge and experience. A bit less snobbery.

For the record, I whole heartedly believe no dog should be bred without health clearances and titles and an honest appraisal of its strengths and weaknesses, preferably by a neutral 3rd party. But for someone who WANTS to do those things and try to learn to contribute to the breed being met with snobbery and holier than thou stuff is really a bummer. I feel strongly that the my line is better than your line and my sport is better than your sport and I know more about the breed than you do nonsense is just not helping anybody or anything. Mind you I do recognize that different sports put different pressures on the dogs and imthat needs to be considered as far as what does that title say about your dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The same circular argument.

The bottom line....I will always stress the dogs should be of appropriate size and structure to the breed. I will always stress that the dogs should be proven prior to breeding in both health testing and work and that CGC or rally novice is not a breeding title. I will always stress that people go watch the dogs and find their flavor. I will always stress that people have a mentor. I will always stress that a pet dog needs to be just as stable as a police K9 or a sport dog. I will always stress that buyers go to breeders that believe the same thing.

For anyone that thinks otherwise....

You do you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The GSD, like many other breeds, are working dogs. If you start breeding them for pets, you start to lose purpose, hence lose breed.
> 
> No breed of dog is, nor should they be, the right pet for every family. So when breeders start breeding for pets, just what exactly are they trying to breed? What is pet quality for one family is not necessarily what the next family is looking for in a pet.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!
Finally somebody emphasizes that breeding should be seeking to be as close to the standard as possible. And guess what is NOT in the standard.....likes, lines, specific color. Yet, the majority of reputable breeders breed on these things, as do the pet breeders. People that breed should have knowledge of the breed and their dogs. The breed, to give them an idea of Major or serious faults per the standard; and their dogs to know if they are or have history ( at least from parents) of disqualifying or serious faults. 
You can be either a kennel, a hobby breeder, or even a pet home to do this....but people who breed on emotions, likes, and lines are the downfall of the breed, imo because they are closed minded to things outside these things.
And these folks can be either pet or reputable!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

No matter if its a show line, working line, pet , we need more emphasis on health testing all around. The breed in general has a pretty poor lifespan with health problems that just keeps increasing. My sisters springer spaniel is like 17 years old or something now, never had a sick day in its life, treated by its family like crap, lives outside in the hot florida summer, gets fed kibble and bits (when they remember to feed it), and has outlived two of my shepherds who we fed premium food and made sure they were always taken care of. It's real nice to have a beautiful show dog, or a working dog who is good at what he does, but not especially an advantage if the dog doesn't make it past a young age. You don't want to wait until the dog is too old to breed because that puts her at risk, but how do you know she will produce healthy offspring with a long life span? Do the health testing, look at her parents, and her grandparents, find out how old they lived to be, factor that as well into your decision to breed the dog if you are going to breed it anyways. I have been very disappointed with our pedigree database system in the fact that you can look at many of the health tests, qualifications of the dog and certifications, but if you keep going you don't see the age they died at. This issue of health is even more important for those breeding "pet dogs" because your average dog owner isn't going to want to throw out tons of money on a dogs medical bills when they have their children to care for, etc. and they just wanted something fun to entertain their kids and "guard" their home. If that dog has a major medical issue it is likely getting dumped at the pound, or put to sleep, and those pet dog breeders are not as likely to take it back and care for it. I've been there countless times with "breeders" who don't want to own up to their mistakes.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I do think there is a fair amount of snobbery about breeding dogs. Its ironic that the best dogs from the best breeders can't be bred because the breeder won't usually lift limited registration so the ones solid freely with full registration are the crappiest.
> 
> I do understand why breeders do this but it also does mean the ones that are easy to breed are crap.
> 
> There does seem to be a prevailing attitude that only the best of the best of the longest standing people involved with gsds should be allowed to breed and everyone else should be ashamed of themselves.


IME the "Thou Shalt Not Breed" and "Only after 1,000 years of dog training can you take a seat at the High Table of Canine Breeding" snobbery is far more obnoxious online than in person. 

I have more than one training friend who was not planning to become a "breeder", but after noteworthy achievements and lots of third party feedback, was encouraged to consider their dog for breeding purposes. They weren't told this by friends or "I want a puppy!" types or the internet, but by judges, experienced handlers, clinic instructors. People utterly unrelated to the breeder, and people with zero financial or ego stake in whether or not the dog reproduces. 

That's the kind of feedback that is only available to people who get their dog out in front of a number of unrelated third party evaluators, and listen, and then go do it again.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One thing that would help would be more opportunities for enthusiastic amateurs to get involved. When I first got a GSD, it was not registered, and that excluded me from taking part in any CKC activities. I couldn't find anything else: once I'd done a basic obedience and tracking course with my dog, that was it. There was NOTHING else for unregistered dogs. We couldn't even go in a tracking competition!

Then the PEN number came along, and I was able to compete in performance events.

But the CKC show folk still keep the show ring pretty much to themselves. If you want to compete these days, you pretty much HAVE to hire a professional handler to stand a chance of getting a ribbon. And I think that sucks...

It may explain why numbers at shows are down so much. Once I got my first registered dog, and was interested in showing, I found there were NO GSDs entered at the first ever CKC show I attended. (I was just there to watch, as I didn't have Star's papers yet.) I had to drive all the way to London, Ontario to find one with GSDs in the classes and even then, the class size was quite small (3 or 4 dogs.)

As for the performance events (obedience) even at the GSD specialties, you will find very few GSDs in the classes, and it is very rare for one of the competitors to have a conformation title.

So, if the GSDCC wants to just breed GSDs to trot around the ring looking pretty, they are doing a fine job... but I don't think that's what the average owner wants from their dog. They at least expect the dog to have a stable temperament and be good with their kids. 

Okay, now GSDCC has the temperament test (TEC certificate.) That's good, right? But it's only necessary for dogs that are trying for Excellent Select, and many club members fought tooth and nail to prevent even THAT from happening!

Sad, very sad...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

In some ways, an experienced eye looking at a green dog tells you more than watching a titled IPO dog on the trial field. I'm talking someone who really knows dogs and knows what to look for and test for. Plenty of great breeders producing quality dogs do not actually title their females but do test them, and of course health test. I think if the female is stimulated mentally, worked, and treated well and the breeder knows her lines and knows dogs, then a title isn't necessary, depending on a few different factors. Some of the greatest working dogs I know are out of untitled (but not untested) females. 

And there are a lot of questionable "titles".


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In the past most dog breeds started out as working dogs. Society was different. Dogs don't get the work they need anymore so I guess it's better to breed them for their current use as society has changed. Many working dogs are alone all day and are pet-on-demand. Working line dogs are great but only if you can give them what they need. I feel guilty sometimes for having working lines and they aren't getting the work they would probably excel in if they were my working K9s and if I were a cop. 
But I do my best and it works. I love their temperament and their looks but little less drivey would be nice. If we continue to just focus on breeding working lines (any breed) then how many pet people can have dogs unless you need to go with Pugs, Pekes etc?
Another pet peeve of mine is that all mutts need to be sterilized. I can't find a nice mutt in the shelter. What's left are the Pits, Chihuahuas and senior dogs. 
Years ago a trainer told me, "If you have a GSD that is not crippled, hasn't bitten anyone and has a shiny coat by the time it is 4 years old, breed it". There is some truth in this, not all but still...


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> In the past most dog breeds started out as working dogs. Society was different. Dogs don't get the work they need anymore so I guess it's better to breed them for their current use as society has changed. Many working dogs are alone all day and are pet-on-demand. Working line dogs are great but only if you can give them what they need. I feel guilty sometimes for having working lines and they aren't getting the work they would probably excel in if they were my working K9s and if I were a cop.
> But I do my best and it works. I love their temperament and their looks but little less drivey would be nice. If we continue to just focus on breeding working lines (any breed) then how many pet people can have dogs unless you need to go with Pugs, Pekes etc?
> Another pet peeve of mine is that all mutts need to be sterilized. I can't find a nice mutt in the shelter. What's left are the Pits, Chihuahuas and senior dogs.
> Years ago a trainer told me, "If you have a GSD that is not crippled, hasn't bitten anyone and has a shiny coat by the time it is 4 years old, breed it". There is some truth in this, not all but still...


Funny you say this. My cousins came to me to help look for a German shepherd puppy. Female. A good family dog. So I went to a reputable breeder who has titled dogs, serious police dogs, etc. This breeder with his knowledge selected their puppy out of a litter. 
My cousin could not be happier. The puppy is super confident, has the energy to go all day, and would make a good working prospect. Bred to be versatile (just as the breed was supposed to be). 
Now this would not be possible by a pet breeder. Someone who has a nice dog that doesnt know the difference between lines. In fact my female is from the same breeder. Want to guess what line she is specifically?
And of course, I'll attach a picture for attention because I'm super proud of this puppy for some reason:


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

selzer said:


> I think that the problem shooter was discussing was that there is no in-between for the folks here -- "if the bitch was 3 years old..." It is the same tired arguments, the same bashing for folks. I challenge folks to encourage people to take manageable steps to become the breeders we need for the preservation of the breed -- not for the steepest ski slopes or the highest drives or the straightest backs, or excellent rated hips. You catch more flies with honey. If we would embrace folks and make little suggestions here and there, maybe you get a better product in the end. When you say things like, "your bitch will die!" "The best thing to happen will be for your bitch to die and all her pups" (yeah someone said that to me 13 years ago here). "All the dogs in shelters will die because of you." and so forth. People will just think you all don't know what you are talking about, are extremists, and will do what they want to do.
> 
> And we wonder why so many folks wait until pups are coming, like in hours, before they ask for help. And we wonder why people say, "oh my son was supposed to let them out separately, but he unhooked my boy's kennel when the girl was out, and whoops!
> 
> It is more respectable here to have an oops litter than to breed your dogs -- that is a problem. But whatever. At the end of the day, most of the puppies produced each year are pets, owned by folks that do not want or need or in some cases know what the different lines are, or whether their dog is well bred or poorly bred in structure or temperament. If we can improve the dogs these folks buy by _not _alienating folks out the gate, then maybe we have done a good thing. Maybe.


I think you took my shelter comment WAY out of context. I actually don't like shelter dogs. I know. Gasps all around. I have had nothing but horrible experiences with shelter/rescue dogs personally, with family, close family friends, and my own personal friends. Nothing but issues. And while that is okay for some people, some have the patience, money, resources, etc. to deal with that, I don't. It's a personal thing. Therefore, I do not want a dog that I don't know the lines, health, size, expected temperament, or drives of. I certainly do not want an unstable dog that I can't trust around people, kids, or other dogs. Pet bred dogs do not give me what I need. I cannot trust the expected size, health, drives, or temperament of a puppy that no one bothered to find out about in the parents. How could they possibly know what the puppies will be like if they don't even know about the parents? That is why health tests and titles are important. If I want a purebred dog, why would I get a pet bred dog that doesn't give me a good idea of what I am going to get? That's kind of the point of a purebred dog in the first place. If I want an unknown dog, I will get one from the shelter. There are plenty of them.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I haven't read every comment. As far as there being no in between on this board, I have received nothing but support and encouragement from this board since I said I wanted to breed. I speak to a few of the long time members about dogs and second opinions on breeding's I'm thinking about and always get great feedback. So to say this board is always against anyone breeding isn't accurate. 

I also want to add, there is a big difference between a good dog and a breeding dog. Not all good dogs should be bred. There are a lot of other factors that come into play. As others have said, it's all a balancing act to get as close to the standard as possible.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

tc68 said:


> He doesn't get it, people. No point in trying to explain it to Shooter. He already says he wants to start fights with everyone concerning this issue. By arguing with him, you're only falling into his trap. All you're doing is giving him the attention that he craves.


Who is this guy? Dad gone straight, I don't get it. I said nothing about fighting folks. I said lightning rod. This is so I will catch the heat instead of some new member who steps on a forum land mine. Maybe I could have worded it differently but I was frustrated because my knuckles were sore from dragging the ground.




Shooter said:


> I have decided that I'm going to jump in on every thread when a poor new person to this forum innocently asks about breeding. I'm ready to be their lightning rod. That is the 2nd time I have seen someone on their very 1st post wade in to that conversation. God help them please. I love Shepherds more than I love my own life but I hate it when some poor soul dares to mention breeding for some pups. This "dont breed your shep because you are too stupid" attitude just makes me so mad I could spit.


FYI: the folks on this forum are awesome. They were a big help to me 2 years ago when I lost my GSD and was getting my current GSD. Just because you argue a point strongly doesn't mean you dont like the folks you are arguing with. I've been in a dysfunctional family all my life so I know this 1st hand.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> Nah.... she has a very nice American showline dog.
> 
> I think one of the greatest losses in our breed, due to "pet" breeding, is to the new and ambitious breed enthusiast.
> 
> ...



And to underscore this point: I was a pet person. I sought out and bought a pet. Fortunately, because I purchases from a breeder who was asking their dogs to do things, when I decided I wanted to get into dog sports, I was able to. My dog has not held me back. On the flip side, I was at an event today and watched a poorly bred GSD struggle hard because while he had the desire, he did not have the nerve strength to handle what he was being asked to do. I know his handler. She loves him dearly and she will keep him no matter what. But when it comes to performance, he will hold her back. That is, unfortunate fly, what mediocre breeding and neglecting to test for some type of working/performance ability will net you.



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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shooter said:


> Maybe I could have worded it differently but I was frustrated because my knuckles were sore from dragging the ground.


Lift your arms slightly @Shooter...Or just keep both hands on the lightning rod and never leave home without it LOL! >

Good on ya for bringing this up though mate! And I have to say, I have also not seen much support for ANYONE suggesting breeding their dog on this forum. Even people who have dogs with great pedigrees. The conversation always goes toward "what makes your dog exceptional" and "what specifically makes your dog breed worthy". Even though many times the dogs were...it's hard for a newcomer to wade through...


So, I'm very very impressed with @selzer's responses and willingness to speak out against the conventional mentality about how this or any breed is preserved! (As always, I might add...).

Contrary to what others have said, most breeds, from what I've read, have gone away because they are bred over time to fill a particular niche that either (a) is no longer needed or relevant, or (b) because some creative breeder willing to press the envelope comes up with a new breed that becomes more popular because they are better at the task in question. 

There were a couple cases I found where it was said the breed eventually became extinct because it was "watered down" over time via mixing, but in those cases it was because the breed no longer held value for its intended purpose...and that's worth keeping in mind!

To be honest, I'm certainly not an expert, and I did Google the info LOL! 

But, that being said, the GSD is an EXCEPTIONAL breed! Relatively new, in that they've only been around a little over 100 years, and bred specifically for their versatility. It is a breed, I personally feel, that should be preserved in the "standard" state for the next 100,000 yrs or so, so a little snobbery, and vehemence is a good thing. >

To get back on topic, OP I would not, as others have exhaustively mentioned, ever consider breeding an 8 yr old dog for the first time!

That being said, my last female had her final litter at 10 (gasp, I know!), and though it was a smaller litter than her previous ones, both her and the puppies all were fine! She died at 12 1/2 yrs old, but had no arthritis or any other health problems at that age (she was poisoned by antifreeze unfortunately, and died very suddenly from it...I still miss that dog!).

Anyway, just my 2 cents...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WIBackpacker said:


> Nah.... she has a very nice American showline dog.
> 
> I think one of the greatest losses in our breed, due to "pet" breeding, is to the new and ambitious breed enthusiast.
> 
> ...


And why are the vast majority of GSDs in our local shelter, sable working-line dogs on any given day. What a sad thing, when a family goes out to get a GSD who ought to be diverse enough to be "just a pet" find they have a dog with no off switch, or that cannot stop going after anything that moves, including other pets, small children, etc? 

I have heard so many excuses for poor behavior in working line dogs that I never want another one. And yes, I have had one. And it is not the dogs themselves, it is the excuses owners give for their behavior. 

The best reason to come to this site is to listen to all the stories and think, boy I love my dogs! Are they perfect? No. In fact, in a hurry today, I tried to walk my 5.5 year old neutered dog through my 12 year old bitch's kennel to get to his, and she jumped him. A dog fight started by an ancient bitch! I got them apart without injury, mostly because Heidi is so OLD. But, I am so glad I do not have the shepherds, well-bred or not, that are talked about here. Dogs that are terrified of the vet -- but that is excused by the owners. Dogs that are terrified by storms (top show dogs) -- that too, excused by the owners. I don't know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have not put titles on all my dogs, some of them I put more titles on. All of them I could easily get a title on. Easily. I don't think there is a dog out there that I couldn't title. But I am probably wrong. There are probably some dogs that will fall to pieces in a show atmosphere, or try to bite the judge, somewhere, even with a competent trainer/handler that is playing to the dog's strengths and choosing the venue with respect to the dog. 

Just like I don't believe the vast majority of dogs _need _a prong collar, I do not think the vast majority of dogs would have the multitude of behavioral issues if the folks that raised these dogs had a few ounces of common sense. I'll go further, I don't think that a good dog who lands with bad first owners will be ruined by it. Once they are with a competent owner/trainer/handler, they will snap into a good mold, even if they have set in some bad habits. 

Maybe you all are right, and we should only have the best of the best, well-established breeders breed dogs. Maybe if there is a 5 year waiting list to buy a puppy for 10 thousand or more dollars, fewer inexperienced people that lack common sense will get their hands on the dogs, and the dogs that do remain will be top notch. Not because only the best of the best are bred, but only the best of the best are able to purchase the dogs. 

But then, nothing will stop the millers. If the rest of the folks put a moratorium on breeding, to clean up the breed, they will step up their numbers to fill the gap. And the breed will then be in the hands of the worst of the worst. Folks will buy from them.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> ............................
> But, that being said, the GSD is an EXCEPTIONAL breed! Relatively new, in that they've only been around a little over 100 years, and bred specifically for their versatility. It is a breed, I personally feel, that should be preserved in the "standard" state for the next 100,000 yrs or so, so a little snobbery, and vehemence is a good thing. >..............
> 
> Anyway, just my 2 cents...


That was a great post and it knocked me off my high horse. Thank you


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> And why are the vast majority of GSDs in our local shelter, sable working-line dogs on any given day. What a sad thing, when a family goes out to get a GSD who ought to be diverse enough to be "just a pet" find they have a dog with no off switch, or that cannot stop going after anything that moves, including other pets, small children, etc?
> 
> I have heard so many excuses for poor behavior in working line dogs that I never want another one. And yes, I have had one. And it is not the dogs themselves, it is the excuses owners give for their behavior.
> 
> The best reason to come to this site is to listen to all the stories and think, boy I love my dogs! Are they perfect? No. In fact, in a hurry today, I tried to walk my 5.5 year old neutered dog through my 12 year old bitch's kennel to get to his, and she jumped him. A dog fight started by an ancient bitch! I got them apart without injury, mostly because Heidi is so OLD. But, I am so glad I do not have the shepherds, well-bred or not, that are talked about here. Dogs that are terrified of the vet -- but that is excused by the owners. Dogs that are terrified by storms (top show dogs) -- that too, excused by the owners. I don't know.


I have to disagree that the vast majority of GSD's in shelters are "sable working line dogs." This simply is an inaccurate statement. First, there seems to be a big misconception as to what a "working line" dog is. Color does not decide if the dog is SL or WL, plus most GSD's in the US are really neither. Sable is a color and AKC SL dogs can be sable, pets bred from a mix of lines can be sable just as a working line dog can be sable. 

Working line or Show line is based on pedigree not color, not temperament and not behavior. It seems that if some one does agility, rally, flyball, tracking, etc with their GSD it is suddenly a "working line" dog or a working dog. 

We have a very large, new, state of the art Animal Control facility in my city. Our K-9 Office is in the building and we kennel our dogs there when on vacation. The area our dogs get kenneled contains the dogs held for court cases. Occasionally, I see a GSD in the facility being held for court. Anytime a GSD or a Malinois comes in for adoption I get a call to evaluate the dog. I have never seen a "working line" dog in the shelter for adoption or for biting someone. I've seen plenty of American line bred dogs that are there for adoption or held for court for biting someone. I've seen plenty of American bred dogs that have behavioral and nerve issues. 

This is not a WL vs SL debate. It is a discussion on properly breeding dogs with the bare minimum of requirements to deem a dog breed worthy. Sure, there are poorly bred WL dogs. But, the percentage of WL dogs actually bred is a fraction of the overall GSD's bred in the US. Yet, everything is blamed on WL dogs or it is the fault of IPO. The split in this breed is such a chasm that people can not get past themselves. The dogs discussed in this thread are poorly bred dogs, that is it. Poorly bred dogs with poor temperaments. Poor breeding crosses all lines. 

Then the "off switch" comes up in these discussions. I've owned ASL dogs, WGSL dogs and true WL dogs. I've never had an issue with any of my dogs settling in the house or having an off switch. I'd much rather have a high drive, bounce off the walls for a toy (I currently have 2) dog will solid nerves and a solid temperament than a basket case of dogs with a weak temperament and thin nerves that has no "on switch." 

*But, I am so glad I do not have the shepherds, well-bred or not, that are talked about here. Dogs that are terrified of the vet -- but that is excused by the owners. Dogs that are terrified by storms (top show dogs) -- that too, excused by the owners. I don't know*

This is exactly the point. A well bred dog of any lines or breed should not have all the issues that we see in GSD's today. I've been involved in the breed since the 80's. I've been involved with AKC show and OB clubs, I started in IPO in the mid 90's and have done training, primarily GSD's for years. I have judged nose work trials and I work with dogs everyday. I test dogs for Patrol and narcotics work routinely. I see a lot of dogs, I have my hands on a lot of dogs. There is a huge change in the breed in the past 20 - 25 years. Even the WL GSD's are not the same as they were and the American bred dogs I see are not what they used to be. This breed has gone down a road that recovering from may not be possible. For all of those that want a lab in a GSD coat with no "ON" switch, well you have it. It started with the Martin Brothers and continued with ASL breeders then the BYB breeders that want a puppy from their dog. Puppy mills while being a problem are not responsible for this or the real problem. 
@selzer, I'm sure you have nice, beautiful dogs and care for them well. No doubt about that. 

Overall, I agree with a lot of what you have said. I just see the issues with the breed a little differently. I do not breed dogs, but I have owned GSD's for a long time. I love SL dogs, I really do. Would I own one again, absolutely if I decide to stay with the breed in the next 10 years. I like the temperament, nerves and drive of a well bred GSD. It is getting harder and harder to find what I like, but those GSD's are still out there.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Anyone can put a title on a dog. But what's the merit of the title? 
Rally, cgc, obedience. Those are hard titles and they take work. However, they dont really test the breed worthiness of a dog. They test the handler dog relationship and training aptitude with very little pressure. 
I'm still waiting to see well bred gsds in shelters. I'm sure it happens, but it's more likely to be byb dogs that were cheap, bred as pets. 

You know, I haven't really seen anyone get slammed for wanting to breed their dog that has put time into it. Titles, hips and elbows, etc. 
And as a bunch of breed enthusiasts, we should hold people accountable for the proliferation of our breed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So predictable. 

I've evaluated a lot of shepherds in shelters. Actively pulled and fostered. Worked with shelters to train and socislize the shepherds they have. Not a single one was a sable working line. In fact the only one that may have been working line was actually just list and the owner reclaimed.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> In some ways, an experienced eye looking at a green dog tells you more than watching a titled IPO dog on the trial field. I'm talking someone who really knows dogs and knows what to look for and test for. Plenty of great breeders producing quality dogs do not actually title their females but do test them, and of course health test. I think if the female is stimulated mentally, worked, and treated well and the breeder knows her lines and knows dogs, then a title isn't necessary, depending on a few different factors. Some of the greatest working dogs I know are out of untitled (but not untested) females.
> 
> 
> 
> And there are a lot of questionable "titles".




I don’t think this is an excuse for not working your dogs, and I do think the title is important if only to have an objective record of what was achieved by your breeding stock - dogs and bitches alike. The kind of knowledge you reference is priceless, but its value is also only as lasting as the _perception_ of said value.

Some titles are questionable? Well, then it’s on the breeder to know which tiles those are and to avoid sinking time and money into them. Some titles have downsides or weak spots? Okay. No measure is perfect. So it’s on the breeder to understand what that title - and the process of earning it - can tell them and what it can’t. Some titles are worthless in terms of distinguishing breed worthiness? Okay, just know that if you decide to stick to BN or RN or dock diving that those are fun and worth doing for fun but not an actual yardstick for breeding stock.

I understand Tim and money and energy are limited - but there are owners out there who are glad to own a dog that could be brought into a program and who will take on the expense (but also the experience and the true pleasure) of working and titling that dog for you, and they may add demonstrable evidence of the versatility of your program if they choose to do so in a venue where you haven’t tested your dog’s. There’s really no excuse in my opinion. Pick something and try to get your dogs to a high level (not just an intro level title). Let your owners or co-owners do the same.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

RE: Titling bitches..... 

I didn't have a really strong opinion on this until more recently. 

Dealing with heat cycles really is a headache, especially in venues where you either can't attend regular training, or have to run in a weird order, or run in pants, or set them up on a strange little starting launch pad at the start line, or cannot utilize normal dog bathroom areas, etc. 

But I've come to believe very strongly that if we don't test the females and elevate the ones that can continue to function even when flooded with hormones, we are going to end up reproducing even more bitches that can't work and lose their brain for 2 months out of every 12. That isn't helpful, it isn't fun, and it certainly doesn't stack the deck for strong females in future generations.

The most stressful trial I ever entered was last year, with my 2 year old bitch in standing heat. Four runs over two days, larger field than she'd trialed in previously, off leash and hundreds of feet of distance to cover. You cannot request the gender of set out dogs (the well trained dogs used to move sets of livestock into position for each run), so there could very well be an intact male zooming around moving sheep into place for your runs. I was very stressed out before the trial and seriously considered pulling my entry, because I knew where she was at. I didn't pull, she ran, we had success, and I was very proud of her.

Mad respect for *everyone* who trials their BIS, and no one is going to change my mind on that. I think we should ask a lot from the females.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> And why are the vast majority of GSDs in our local shelter, sable working-line dogs on any given day. What a sad thing, when a family goes out to get a GSD who ought to be diverse enough to be "just a pet" find they have a dog with no off switch, or that cannot stop going after anything that moves, including other pets, small children, etc?
> 
> I have heard so many excuses for poor behavior in working line dogs that I never want another one. And yes, I have had one. And it is not the dogs themselves, it is the excuses owners give for their behavior.
> 
> The best reason to come to this site is to listen to all the stories and think, boy I love my dogs! Are they perfect? No. In fact, in a hurry today, I tried to walk my 5.5 year old neutered dog through my 12 year old bitch's kennel to get to his, and she jumped him. A dog fight started by an ancient bitch! I got them apart without injury, mostly because Heidi is so OLD. But, I am so glad I do not have the shepherds, well-bred or not, that are talked about here. Dogs that are terrified of the vet -- but that is excused by the owners. Dogs that are terrified by storms (top show dogs) -- that too, excused by the owners. I don't know.




But seltzer isn’t that a red herring? Okay, so some dogs don’t have off switches. That has nothing to do with not testing your breeding stock (of any line), except of course for the idea that if you test your stock and try to ensure a solid temperament, the dogs should be able to handle being pets. If the dogs can generally handle a trial site and deal with crowds and an unfamiliar environment and travel and work with a nervous handler and be successful, they are likely to be able to handle a houseful of your kids’ friends or a walk in a city park or a trip to the family cabin or a meet and greet at the State Fair (all pet things to do).

Unless you are trying to claim that GSDs regardless of line are not in fact of a working breed and that pet’s should be lumbering potatoes who don’t react because they basically don’t know better. That would be a different argument. But I don’t think you are and I know nobody who actually knows this breed would think GSDs in general should be lumbering potatoes. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

In my opinion, titles are only important to the buyer. Titles prove the dog has been worked, and titles help "promote" a dog. I do believe trialing your dog shows you something about the dog, but I haven't been told anything from a judge that I didn't already know. Usually in my case I'm harder on my dogs than judges have been. Titles by themselves don't mean anything. It's just one more piece of information for breeding decisions. At the end of the day, you're not breeding titles. This is just my two cents on that.

Working females in season can tell you about the female. At least eighty percent of Kimbers titles were achieved while she was in heat. It's just our luck that she is always in during trial seasons haha. My one trial with Areli so far, she was in standing heat. To me it's not a reason to not trial or work your dog. Every female is different in how they handle it, but I work my girls through it no matter what. It just requires a bit more patience sometimes on my part. I also don't think females in heat should have to go last or have a change treatment. Personally, I think it all becomes a training issue. But that's just me.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

WIBackpacker said:


> RE: Titling bitches.....
> 
> I didn't have a really strong opinion on this until more recently.
> 
> ...



100% agree with this! My experience wasn't as nerve wracking as yours, but I had something similar.


My girl went into her first heat 2 weeks before our first Barnhunt trial (first EVER trial for us too). I was told by multiple people that it wouldn't be a bad idea to drop out of the trial because of the tendency for bitches to completely lose their minds. Because we had missed the previous one due to an injury (which I don't actually think was an injury but my mind thinks in "what if's") I didn't want to miss out on this one too. Worst case scenario, I'm out $80.
Two days, four runs. 2 third place qualified runs, 1 second place, and a RATN title. I'm proud she pulled through her hormone bogged mind and did what was asked of her.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would just like to point out that Sabi was a BYB dog. She had a rock solid temperament that was tested time and again in the real world. She was highly successful at work, with a proven and provable record. We worked closely with local law enforcement and they regarded her very highly. The clients loved her and her presence was often requested on high profile jobs. 
She was amazing with children, never bothered with small creatures in the house and in fact was my nanny dog for foster pups. 
By most estimations she had an ideal temperament, with the possible exception that she was a bit lacking in any real drive. She was possessed of natural tracking and herding abilities and took her job as a PPD very seriously. 
At 2 and 3 years old I was bombarded with requests to breed her. By some arguments in this thread I should have. If ever I have seen a stellar example of a pet bred GSD she was it. 
I resolved the argument by having her spayed in the interest of making her more workable. Thank heavens I did. My apparently awesome dog was actually possessed of fairly poor health, though she never let on, and I shudder to think of the heartache her pups could have caused. 
The man that dumped Savannah over my fence did not seem heartless or cruel. He sought out "the lady with the Shepherds" to dump his sick puppy on. My assumption is that his nice pets had a litter and one got sick and was therefore unsaleable. If he had had any nefarious or unethical intentions she would have been dumped in a ditch or worse. She is the ugliest GSD I have ever seen, and not very healthy, but she is sweet and very smart.
I am in no way against people breeding their pets, but I am vehemently opposed to doing so with no knowledge. The suggestion that we should just encourage it and let them learn as they go would result in far to many unstable or unhealthy pups while they learned and that is unacceptable in my books.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The promoted mentality that titles mean nothing is seriously disturbing to me. There is literally no way that you can mimic the stress that it takes to trial and travel under top level scrutiny and physical pressure. And until you’ve actually been in that situation and experienced it first hand, you can’t say it means nothing. How could you possibly know what it means, having literally never been there? It does nothing but give everyone with a dog and a piece of paper a better reason to just breed it. Of course everyone is going to love what they see of their own dog in their backyard training sessions..That’s the whole point of objectivity, and the whole point of a system with judges that have far more experience and qualifications than most any average person in the breed. 

I know an awful lot about veterinary medical care, but I don’t go around calling myself “doctor”. There is a REASON that there is an objective authority in place to evaluate. There is always going to be a flexible opinion of deserved vs not, but that does not change the fact that the ones who did deserve it have a proven evaluation of an important aspect to the breed standard. There are plenty of untitled and unworthy dogs who have been bred as well. The only difference is that those breeders can use the excuse that they “know the dog and know the training”, or some variation of that.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Are you saying the dogs understand the difference between a club trial and a national event? The dogs know they are being graded more strict therefore feel more stress? Honest question, not argumentative. I always ask people this as I've flown with my dogs 2200 miles to trial in three day 50+ dog club trials. In two weeks I'm doing a two week thousands of miles long trip working and training with various people along the way and ending with a trial on a field they've never seen with decoys they've never seen. It's just a club trial though. At those big events, the scrutiny I've seen is coming from the training rarely from the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with all Alexis stated. In my 5 minutes in IPO, I can verify a completely different mind set in my dog while trialing. I've personally seen a difference in a good friend's dog. You can not replicate trial stress and the atmosphere of the event. More dogs, more people. They pick up on all the stress around them. Dogs can ramp up. Or fall apart. I've seen both. Mine ramps up. He's so much more powerful on trial day and rides that control edge the whole way. Do the dogs know they are being graded? No. Do the dogs react to the increased activity and stress around them? I think so.



IMO, training shows you the potential of the dog. It shows the strengths and weaknesses. Environmental sensitivities, genetic grip, etc. An honest handler will see the holes and determine if the dog is breedable by the IPO2 title. But that trial....that really shows the dog's nerve base.

ETA: trial OR work. A K9 or SAR dog has their nerve tested in real life scenarios. While we simulate that with trials.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> And why are the vast majority of GSDs in our local shelter, sable working-line dogs on any given day. What a sad thing, when a family goes out to get a GSD who ought to be diverse enough to be "just a pet" find they have a dog with no off switch, or that cannot stop going after anything that moves, including other pets, small children, etc?
> 
> I have heard so many excuses for poor behavior in working line dogs that I never want another one. And yes, I have had one. And it is not the dogs themselves, it is the excuses owners give for their behavior.
> 
> The best reason to come to this site is to listen to all the stories and think, boy I love my dogs! Are they perfect? No. In fact, in a hurry today, I tried to walk my 5.5 year old neutered dog through my 12 year old bitch's kennel to get to his, and she jumped him. A dog fight started by an ancient bitch! I got them apart without injury, mostly because Heidi is so OLD. But, I am so glad I do not have the shepherds, well-bred or not, that are talked about here. Dogs that are terrified of the vet -- but that is excused by the owners. Dogs that are terrified by storms (top show dogs) -- that too, excused by the owners. I don't know.


Sue, I know you have seen more working line dogs than me to have your opinions about their behavior, but I know I have seen and worked with hundreds and hundreds of these dogs and honestly the vast majority live in homes and do not have behavior issues. I realize I don’t see them all and their are some WL dogs with issues, but the amount I have seen, and know, and have bred that mostly went into pet home and had no problems adjusting, makes me feel like there is large segment of these dogs ( for your statements to be accurate) that I am not familiar with.?*♀


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Are you saying the dogs understand the difference between a club trial and a national event? The dogs know they are being graded more strict therefore feel more stress? Honest question, not argumentative. I always ask people this as I've flown with my dogs 2200 miles to trial in three day 50+ dog club trials. In two weeks I'm doing a two week thousands of miles long trip working and training with various people along the way and ending with a trial on a field they've never seen with decoys they've never seen. It's just a club trial though. At those big events, the scrutiny I've seen is coming from the training rarely from the dog.


No, I mean that a national event is run entirely differently than a club or regional trial, and it will encite stress in both a handler or dog accordingly. Traveling multiple days, hotel stays, walking a mile to get to your track, waiting while two or three dogs track ahead of you, 5 minute timed field practice, stadium entrance, HUGE crowds, music, announcers, National size field and the strongest helpers chosen in the entire country, with dogs who’ve never seen them before, and with maybe an hour between your routines at times. Or a bitch in heat who practices 20 minutes before her stadium trial. This is strictly IPO that I’m referencing because it’s what I have personally experienced. My dogs have dealt with a **** of a lot of pressure in training, but participation at that level is not a comparable experience. It cannot be replicated.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

In response to my last comment...I’m not saying it’s an “end all” obvious test of breedability, but a trial does give an objective opinion in most cases. More objective than the owner can apply in training. 


I work explosives detection k9’s on a daily basis who couldn’t stay on the IPO field if it came down to it. There are many ways to test nerve strength, and in my opinion, tossing titles out the window of reasoning is not a good start.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Before worrying about performance under high stress, can we first eliminate the problem of reactivity under normal situations please? I would encourage people with healthy, well-tempered, obedient GSDs to breed their dogs even if they are untitled because those GSDs are already in the top 10% league of all GSDs from my experience talking with regular GSD owners who don't participate in training beyond puppy classes and only want their dogs to know their name, sit, stay, come, and leash walking. IMO by shaming regular conscientious people with good healthy family dogs from breeding, we are giving that market share to the real bad byb breeders who only breed for money and have many litters per year and are the real ones causing problems.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DaBai said:


> Before worrying about performance under high stress, can we first eliminate the problem of reactivity under normal situations please?



Testing breeding stock for stress IS how you eliminate reactive dogs. That's the point!


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

DaBai said:


> Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


A lot of the highly reactive dogs I have seen are reactive because they are with owners who don’t know how to handle them. I have a legitimately weak nerved, fear aggressive dog, and he can walk through a crowd and past other dogs. It definitely does not mean he should have been bred. This is setting the bar awfully low...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

DaBai said:


> Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


If testing for stress is overkill, those people don’t need to be breeding. 

Trust me when I say that walking through a crowd should be normal for *any* dog, and is tested before anything else even in competition. 

I am not a professional breeder and make no profit selling litters. I just believe in thoroughly testing things that are important, further than just “she’s not reactive”.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

DaBai said:


> The amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


That is just the point: the products of byb. Any healthy GSD is active and never should or expected to be a stuffed animal that has come to life in the shape of a GSD. If you choose your breeder wisely, you will be able to find a well-bred stable dog with an off button. Sure, my life would be somewhat easier and me being lazier ( :grin2: ) with them being less driven but I chose these guys because they are sound and stable. I can walk and work them anywhere between anyone and anything. 
You need to study the lines before jumping into it. Unstable dogs can be the result of poor breeding, poor socialization, poor exercise, poor training or any / all of the above.
You can also end up with a lesser quality bred dog but with good management, training etc, still get a livable dog like so many others have accomplished here.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A number of years ago, we had a club member with a terrible temper. I didn't see her take it out on her dog in public, but I am sure she did it in private.

She was so amped up when doing her BH that the dog could sense it and didn't want to be anywhere near her. She flunked the test because he was lagging so far behind her. 

So, it's a question of how much of the stress is due to the new location of a trial, and how much is due to the dog picking up on the handler's nerves?

In the above case, it was pretty much 100% the handler's fault because she was trialing on her home club's field.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DaBai said:


> Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


I am most certainly NOT a professional. I am a pet owner with a hobby. I am a pet owner who has owned reactive, fear aggressive dogs. My standard as a pet owner is to never have that again and to support breeders who can give me that because they have tested their stock and not just thrown together their sweet dogs who have never left their property.

If people can't be bothered to train and test to see what they have then they have no business breeding. As someone who has worked in rescue, I've seen first hand what these people are producing. You can check that snotty little assumption of yours.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I am most certainly NOT a professional. I am a pet owner with a hobby. I am a pet owner who has owned reactive, fear aggressive dogs. My standard as a pet owner is to never have that again and to support breeders who can give me that because they have tested their stock and not just thrown together their sweet dogs who have never left their property.
> 
> If people can't be bothered to train and test to see what they have then they have no business breeding. As someone who has worked in rescue, I've seen first hand what these people are producing. You can check that snotty little assumption of yours.


Ok no offence intended. To me, anyone who has first hand experience with IPO is a professional, you said you tried IPO before? Also I don't mean people who breed their dogs who never go out, I mean conscientious regular people who breed that well-tempered healthy dogs who go on hikes with them, go to the parks with them, go to the beaches with them without issues. What I meant is that people like that are shamed to breed by breed elites while byb that you were referring to don't care about their reputation so they can breed like that. If only we don't shame breeding by normal good pet owners so much, those really bad breeders whose dogs barely leave property won't have as much market anymore.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> A lot of the highly reactive dogs I have seen are reactive because they are with owners who don’t know how to handle them. I have a legitimately weak nerved, fear aggressive dog, and he can walk through a crowd and past other dogs. It definitely does not mean he should have been bred. This is setting the bar awfully low...


Well I was just using going pass dogs as one example of the problems I see not saying that should be the only criteria I mean you know your dog is fear aggressive because it shows itself somehow in everyday life right? Owners don't need to go to trials to see if their dogs are fear aggressive, I hope at least lol. My dog is reactive too but there were people approaching me thinking I was training her to be a service dog, but I know easily she is reactive and not well-tempered because I take her to everyday places and it shows. 



GatorDog said:


> If testing for stress is overkill, those people don’t need to be breeding.
> 
> Trust me when I say that walking through a crowd should be normal for *any* dog, and is tested before anything else even in competition.
> 
> I am not a professional breeder and make no profit selling litters. I just believe in thoroughly testing things that are important, further than just “she’s not reactive”.


I think testing for stress in a trial setting is important for dogs that are born to work, but for regular owners, isn't taking the dog everywhere to see their reactions enough testing for everyday stress? If the dog can handle children, visitors, skateboards, parks, pet friendly restaurants, beaches, etc. well, that is enough stress tolerance for a pet. Unfortunately, I don't see even this level of stress tolerant to be normal in GSDs 

Bottom line is I think the owners should have a clear idea whether or not their dogs are well-tempered and obedient if they are good owners who take their dogs to places and they can get joint x rays done at the vet easily too. And I don't mind those people breeding their dogs to occupy the lower-price market from byb breeders who have multiple dogs and solely breed for money.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Okay, guys. This is driving me crazy. _Just because the two parent dogs may appear to have good temperaments and be able to handle stressful situations (meaning walking in a crowd, I guess?), DOES NOT mean the puppies will magically not have issues._ That is not how genetics works.

I have kidney disease. And hypertension. And a nerve dysfunction called "dysautonomia." I was diagnosed with all three of these disease when I was 12 years old. Guess what? Neither of my parents have any of those health issues. It was a *mix of genetics* from both parents that caused my health issues. Having a stable adult dog absolutely does not guarantee stable puppies, which is why good breeders put so much time, money, and energy into finding out who their dog is inside and out. Only by doing that can they get a good idea of what the puppies will look like. After all that, you have to be careful about which two dogs you breed, because that mix of genetics from both parents can throw puppies with fear issues, weak nerves, etc. It is not like you can clone your one stable, adult dog and have the puppies come out the same way. That is so not how that works.

And two seemingly well behaved pets with good temperaments may not actually be as strong nerved as you think. That is what trials are for. To push them to the limit and see if they fly or fall. If you don't know what would actually happen and you breed the dog, the puppies may come out not needing to be pushed to the limit like that. Walking down the street might be enough to push them over the edge.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DaBai said:


> Well I was just using going pass dogs as one example of the problems I see not saying that should be the only criteria I mean you know your dog is fear aggressive because it shows itself somehow in everyday life right? Owners don't need to go to trials to see if their dogs are fear aggressive, I hope at least lol. My dog is reactive too but there were people approaching me thinking I was training her to be a service dog, but I know easily she is reactive and not well-tempered because I take her to everyday places and it shows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this is a huge part of the problem. German Shepherds should be held to a higher standard when it comes to breeding, ownership and work....the utility and versatility of this breed has been degrading because of the bolded in your quote. Too many are breeding, their ego is fed, their pockets are lined and they sell to anyone. The breed can be an excellent pet, but more often than not, they are smarter than their owners with the targeted market of buying lower priced pets.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

It's great that two relatively new breeders are also posting. 
I have respect for both @GatorDog and @mycobraracr are bringing. Versatile dogs. That can handle working in different venues.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I like to see a lot of Schutzund III titled bitches in GSD bloodlines.

I would not breed my own bitch, as wonderful as she is, because she is not to standard. 
She is 26" at the shoulder and her eyes are not dark as possible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Its hard to feel for someone with a reactive dog that thinks backyard breeding is ok to fill a commercial need.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I agree with all Alexis stated. In my 5 minutes in IPO, I can verify a completely different mind set in my dog while trialing. I've personally seen a difference in a good friend's dog. You can not replicate trial stress and the atmosphere of the event. More dogs, more people. They pick up on all the stress around them. Dogs can ramp up. Or fall apart. I've seen both. Mine ramps up. He's so much more powerful on trial day and rides that control edge the whole way. Do the dogs know they are being graded? No. Do the dogs react to the increased activity and stress around them? I think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





GatorDog said:


> No, I mean that a national event is run entirely differently than a club or regional trial, and it will encite stress in both a handler or dog accordingly. Traveling multiple days, hotel stays, walking a mile to get to your track, waiting while two or three dogs track ahead of you, 5 minute timed field practice, stadium entrance, HUGE crowds, music, announcers, National size field and the strongest helpers chosen in the entire country, with dogs who’ve never seen them before, and with maybe an hour between your routines at times. Or a bitch in heat who practices 20 minutes before her stadium trial. This is strictly IPO that I’m referencing because it’s what I have personally experienced. My dogs have dealt with a **** of a lot of pressure in training, but participation at that level is not a comparable experience. It cannot be replicated.





GatorDog said:


> In response to my last comment...I’m not saying it’s an “end all” obvious test of breedability, but a trial does give an objective opinion in most cases. More objective than the owner can apply in training.
> 
> 
> I work explosives detection k9’s on a daily basis who couldn’t stay on the IPO field if it came down to it. There are many ways to test nerve strength, and in my opinion, tossing titles out the window of reasoning is not a good start.



Thanks for the responses. I didn't say that titles have zero meaning. I personally just don't put as much stock into them as other means of testing. As you pointed the title is not the end all be all. That's all I'm getting at. Not that they don't matter at all and therefore anyone should breed anything. If I didn't think titles had any merit at all, I wouldn't them with my dogs. For me it's just one more piece of the puzzle. Not the whole or even the majority. 

I do think dogs feel some level of stress on a trial field, but I think they respond to the handlers stress more. I'm generally a very relaxed trialer. I trial often, and just don't worry about them. I figure by the time I set foot on the field, whatever is going to happen is going to happen. It's too late to train it or worry about it. That's just my attitude. That being said, I have noticed a difference in the dogs I've trialed. Some of which were even on the same day. Mina was very inconsistent, so she was a hard one to tell on if the trial situation made her nervous or not. She wasn't the strongest to begin with. Darcey definitely shut down a bit. Not really knowing what was going on. The advantage to him, was that it made very responsive and correct, so he actually scores really well haha. Terra was very consistent on the trial field. Kimber is rock solid. Not saying perfect every time, but nothing matters to her on the trial field. I always trust trialing her, because we never have the "she's never done that before" moments. Again not saying perfect every time, but if she screws up, I can basically say it's going to happen the second I get her out of the truck. Areli so far has been on trial field twice. Both times places she's never seen until it was our turn to trial. She has handled it very well both times. So I recognize a difference or maybe some level of stress. I think Alexis hit the nail on the head with the noise, waiting and so then on top of it the stress of the handler. In my case, my training is very chaotic. Multiple dogs on the field at once, crap everywhere, people talking, joking, laughing. Then we go to a trial and it's a sterile field, not too much noise, and all eyes on you. It is different for the dogs. The waiting is a big one. Keeping the dogs from getting loaded or switching to the wrong drive for the phase. Some of the sports I play in, you'll DQ even if you ran a perfect routine but the dog is restless during the judges critique. 

I will also say that I respect everyone who steps foot on a trial field. I don't discredit the amount of effort put in to get to the various levels. None of it is easy, and I don't care what sport. My comments come from strictly a GSD enthusiast, and in such think there is much more to a dog to be bred then just reaching alphabet soup level 100.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> Sorry, but this is a huge part of the problem. German Shepherds should be held to a higher standard when it comes to breeding, ownership and work....the utility and versatility of this breed has been degrading because of the bolded in your quote. Too many are breeding, their ego is fed, their pockets are lined and they sell to anyone. The breed can be an excellent pet, but more often than not, they are smarter than their owners with the targeted market of buying lower priced pets.


There is little can be done about this problem though Since there are no regulations on who can buy what breeds, there are always going to be people not wanting/can't afford to pay 2k+ and wait for 6 months on a waitlist for a very properly bred GSD pup. There is a market for cheaper faster pups, whether we like it or not, someone will answer that demand and supply the lower-priced, home-in-8-weeks pups to them. And I feel like shaming the responsible owners with happy, healthy, well-adjusted animals from breeding and giving the lower priced market to byb side businesses who don't care about bad rep is what is potentially causing so many issues now. Just my 2 cents


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

DaBai said:


> Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


Our working dogs routinely were called upon to work in venues that were stressful for people, never mind dogs. Railyards with trains and equipment moving around them, political events with protestors yelling and food being carted around and reporters and angry VIP's who were sure we were in the way, sporting events, concerts, the Stampede with weird animals and rides and fireworks and shoulder to shoulder people shoving and shouting. Not only did they need to stay collected but they needed to continue working and do it effectively. To say that only a trial tests nerve is not fair or right.

About half of our dogs lived with the handlers and served as pets in their down time, so maybe I have different standards. I do believe in the benefit of training and trialing dogs, but I will never say that a working dog who is not possessed of titles should be discounted and again this idea of aiming for mediocrity does not work for me. To say that a dog is breed worthy because it is not reactive is an insult to the breed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DaBai said:


> There is little can be done about this problem though Since there are no regulations on who can buy what breeds, there are always going to be people not wanting/can't afford to pay 2k+ and wait for 6 months on a waitlist for a very properly bred GSD pup. There is a market for cheaper faster pups, whether we like it or not, someone will answer that demand and supply the lower-priced, home-in-8-weeks pups to them. And I feel like shaming the responsible owners with happy, healthy, well-adjusted animals from breeding and giving the lower priced market to byb side businesses who don't care about bad rep is what is potentially causing so many issues now. Just my 2 cents



What people don't realize, is not only are you buying the puppy, you're buying the knowledge and support. Not saying every well bred GSD is flawless nor am I saying that every BYB GSD has every health issue known to man. But without an understand of the pedigrees and how they play off one another, you are just adding to the problem. There are enough people out there breeding every kind of GSD you can think of. No need to encourage more people to just do it willi nillie. The initial price shouldn't be a deciding factor. If you can't afford the $2k puppy, can afford you (general) afford to properly provide for the puppy? Just a thought and a concern, and no I don't always think that's true. Every case is unique. I've had to make payments on a puppy, as well as have accepted payment plans for my puppies. Every case is unique, but I was always taught where there is a will there is a way. We can even talk about the lack of educated buyers. They think, all dogs are the same so why bother paying $2k, when they can get an "equally" good dog with the all important AKC papers for $350. In fact they are completely different. Not to mention again, reputable breeders stand by there dogs. They take care of the family and try and set everyone up for success.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

DaBai said:


> There is little can be done about this problem though Since there are no regulations on who can buy what breeds, there are always going to be people not wanting/can't afford to pay 2k+ and wait for 6 months on a waitlist for a very properly bred GSD pup. There is a market for cheaper faster pups, whether we like it or not, someone will answer that demand and supply the lower-priced, home-in-8-weeks pups to them. And I feel like shaming the responsible owners with happy, healthy, well-adjusted animals from breeding and giving the lower priced market to byb side businesses who don't care about bad rep is what is potentially causing so many issues now. Just my 2 cents


Truly bad breeders that don’t care about the breed or their dogs will breed regardles of what else happens around them or who else decides to breed. Telling people to breed their untested pets because the dog is nice enough isn’t a way to go about fixing that problem, IMO. 

If you want to breed your nice pet, find a mentor. Train your dog. Stress your dog. Do health testing. Prove your dog. Learn all you can about the dogs in their pedigree. This is what we should be encouraging people to do. We shouldn’t be saying, “well, your dog is better than the worst GSD I’ve ever seen, so you might as well make some puppies and a little money while you’re at it.” 

As an aside... I’ve heard countless people who thought their dog was completely solid realize that their dog possesses some environmental sensitivity only after getting involved in dog sports. Like it or not, there are things you will never see in your dog unless you are asking a lot of them in foreign environments. I’m certainly not professing that nosework alone is a measure of breedworthiness, but I’m going to use the sport as an example because I feel it is one of the more accessible venues to most people out there. I happen to know numerous people in the sport who have dogs (some GSDs, some other breeds) who they can take anywhere out in public and never see any hint of weak nerves. Yet that same dog falls apart in a warehouse, or in a school, or a fire station. Or that dog freaks out over tight spaces or weird floor surfaces. You don’t know what you don’t know about your dog until you start testing them outside their comfort zone.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Truly bad breeders that don’t care about the breed or their dogs will breed regardles of what else happens around them or who else decides to breed. Telling people to breed their untested pets because the dog is nice enough isn’t a way to go about fixing that problem, IMO.
> 
> If you want to breed your nice pet, find a mentor. Train your dog. Stress your dog. Do health testing. Prove your dog. Learn all you can about the dogs in their pedigree. This is what we should be encouraging people to do. We shouldn’t be saying, “well, your dog is better than the worst GSD I’ve ever seen, so you might as well make some puppies and a little money while you’re at it.”
> 
> As an aside... I’ve heard countless people who thought their dog was completely solid realize that their dog possesses some environmental sensitivity only after getting involved in dog sports. Like it or not, there are things you will never see in your dog unless you are asking a lot of them in foreign environments. I’m certainly not professing that nosework alone is a measure of breedworthiness, but I’m going to use the sport as an example because I feel it is one of the more accessible venues to most people out there. I happen to know numerous people in the sport who have dogs (some GSDs, some other breeds) who they can take anywhere out in public and never see any hint of weak nerves. Yet that same dog falls apart in a warehouse, or in a school, or a fire station. Or that dog freaks out over tight spaces or weird floor surfaces. You don’t know what you don’t know about your dog until you start testing them outside their comfort zone.


Good read, thanks for sharing, interesting to know that there are so many factors going on. I agree with everything you said except the first paragraph, lots of those people who don't take their dogs to everyday places or breed even if they know their dogs have problems breed for the money...and I hope good responsible owners with great healthy family pets with personal references to share could take over the lower-end market and get those bad breeders out of this business. Though as someone said before it could be adding on to the problems as well so I am confused now lol. Guess again this goes to where the minimum standard should lie, to me a healthy, non-reactive dog that can be taken to regular places and parks and beaches without issue and come when called is a good enough standard for breeding, but guess that is too low a standard for most ppl here which I understand. Much respect and appreciation for serious breeders like you guys to further the breed too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The bar set goes up when knowledge is increased. What was once thought of a great dog is now mediocre after seeing a really good dog(not even a great one). 
The more you know the better you do.
And many of us have had a dog with issues and that is why we are so protective of not seeing these produced just to target a cheap buy it now market. I'd rather have a dog with mild HD than one with allergies or constant management due to poor temperament. 

When I see people breeding their pets together and then get all the fb exposure, it makes me cringe. For every 10 breeders, there is probably one doing it for the breed.

Most all puppies are cute, but they always grow into dogs....some of which end up being a hot mess. Gut sensitivity, lack of food drive or picky eaters should not be part of this breed, yet it seems to be one of the more common less serious problems.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> The bar set goes up when knowledge is increased. What was once thought of a great dog is now mediocre after seeing a really good dog(not even a great one).
> The more you know the better you do.
> And many of us have had a dog with issues and that is why we are so protective of not seeing these produced just to target a cheap buy it now market. I'd rather have a dog with mild HD than one with allergies or constant management due to poor temperament.
> 
> ...


^This. All of this.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

DaBai said:


> Good read, thanks for sharing, interesting to know that there are so many factors going on. I agree with everything you said except the first paragraph, lots of those people who don't take their dogs to everyday places or breed even if they know their dogs have problems breed for the money...and I hope good responsible owners with great healthy family pets with personal references to share could take over the lower-end market and get those bad breeders out of this business. Though as someone said before it could be adding on to the problems as well so I am confused now lol. Guess again this goes to where the minimum standard should lie, to me a healthy, non-reactive dog that can be taken to regular places and parks and beaches without issue and come when called is a good enough standard for breeding, but guess that is too low a standard for most ppl here which I understand. Much respect and appreciation for serious breeders like you guys to further the breed too.


I just wanted to clarify that I am not a breeder. I’m just someone who loves this breed, as well as someone who has dealt with weak nerves, health issues and shoddy overall temperament in dogs enough times to hope that we could expect more from people breeding their GSDs. A dog that functions well in our society is certainly a big part of the equation, in my opinion, but there simply has to be more than that for a dog that is going to be bred.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

DaBai said:


> ... to me a healthy, non-reactive dog that can be taken to regular places and parks and beaches without issue and come when called is a good enough standard for breeding, but guess that is too low a standard for most ppl here which I understand.


It's not that it's "too low a standard for most ppl here", it's too low a standard for the breed even in the pet market! GSDs are supposed to have confidence, and to prove that they have to be pressured. Doesn't matter to me if it's IPO, private security, PPD, or some other venue. But any GSD should not just be environmentally sound, it should be willing to stand its ground when threatened.

It is true that any dog that cannot pass your minimal test should NEVER be bred...yet ppl do all the time and that's a shame! But consider this, a pointy eared golden retriever could easily pass this kind of test, yet that's not what a GSD should be!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> What people don't realize, is not only are you buying the puppy, *you're buying the knowledge *and support.


Yep. I believe the odds of a breeder getting it right,are better when they're willing to invest time and money to train and trial their dogs because through those venues not only are the dogs tested but their owners gain knowledge and experience. No one can learn about a breed just based on their own dogs or from reading things on the internet.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do you know why bad breeding matters? Do you know why testing and stressing our breeding stock matters? Every insurance company that bans GSD because of too many bites. Every rental that bans GSD because of too many bites. Every city that wants to include GSD in their breed restrictions. Every vet that is afraid of them. Every working organization that no longer uses them because of temperament and health issues..... This is why it matters.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

DaBai said:


> Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.


What makes you think that dogs that are tested under stress CANT walk through crowds and children? A higher percent of them CAN walk through crowds and children because of their ability to handle stress. I may be wrong, but by your comments you have been to few, if any trials or training that tests for stress. Many comments on this forum come more from speculations and not actual extensive observance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've seen an IPO dog (WL) go to pieces and NQ in the Rally ring. His owner would not allow a stranger (me) to hold his leash while he did the walk-through. The reason was the atmosphere, inside, acoustics, thousands of dogs, carts, people, booths, loud speakers -- the dog was a nerve bag. If one of my dogs acted that way...


But my dogs are not IPO dogs and they have never "truly" been tested or stressed. Whatever. People need to get over themselves. I have seen a lot of working line dogs, police dogs, that are total sissies at the vet. If one of my dogs acted that way... 


But that is ok. What have the excuses been? Oh, a strong dog will not allow a stranger to handle some parts of him -- whatever. 


No, this _should_ not be a SL/WL debate, but it usually comes down to that. Show line dogs can and do have plenty of nerve. So do working line dogs. There ARE other ways to test a bitch's nerve than IPO or even formal titles. There are experienced people out there that can do it without titling. But folks that want to see titles on breeding stock will pass them by, and frankly, those breeders are probably just as happy that they do. The folks intent on your list of what makes for a good breeder, are usually the most pain in the butt people to deal with throughout. 


Sorry folks but it is true. Dogs are not their pedigrees or their titles or even their lines. Does it say something about both the dog and the breeder? Certainly it does. But it doesn't mean you will have the dog you are expecting, so if you get that out of your head now you will be a happier camper all along. Dogs are individuals. Their temperament is individual, they are born with it and it is somewhat genetic -- not totally else every dog in every litter would be the same. Or not genetic the way a lot of folks think of it. The thing is, the dog gives 50% of the genetics and the bitch gives 50% of the genetics, only the mix is different for every single puppy. Then there is pack order and the imprint of the bitch. 


Yes, yes, yes, the bitch is MORE important than the dog when it comes to temperament -- no! Temperament they are born with, but their character is a mixture of temperament, intelligence, and their response to experiences throughout their life and their character determines behavior in any situation. Bitches mold character at a crucial part of development. So yes, they need as much testing as dogs if not more testing. And they have to have heat cycles too. 


Oh and slamdunc, I do know that ASLs and GSLs can be sable. I can usually look at structure and tell a WL dog from a Show line, and usually from a line-mixture/pet breeding, even when they are neutered early. Usually.


And, WateryTart, the name is selzer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It wouldn't be a WL/ SL debate but you are always the one that brings that up. ALWAYS. It was a whole different discussion until you changed it.

We all got it. You hate working lines. Give it a rest already.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

This would be last reply to this thread...Just want to clear some misunderstandings then I will get out of this out mess...



cliffson1 said:


> What makes you think that dogs that are tested under stress CANT walk through crowds and children? A higher percent of them CAN walk through crowds and children because of their ability to handle stress. I may be wrong, but by your comments you have been to few, if any trials or training that tests for stress. Many comments on this forum come more from speculations and not actual extensive observance.


I didn't mean they can't walk through crowds and children, I just meant I think that trial test is an overkill of a stress test (i.e. more than I or regular GSD owners I know would need from a pup) for everyday stress a regular pet GSD would need to deal with in real life. I agree dogs who go through trials are probably more stress-tolerant than dogs who don't, just saying I personally don't need this much of stress tolerance in my pup thus I don't necessarily have to make sure my pup's parents have this much stress tolerance. But of course if they do all the better and well worth the price!



lhczth said:


> Do you know why bad breeding matters? Do you know why testing and stressing our breeding stock matters? Every insurance company that bans GSD because of too many bites. Every rental that bans GSD because of too many bites. Every city that wants to include GSD in their breed restrictions. Every vet that is afraid of them. Every working organization that no longer uses them because of temperament and health issues..... This is why it matters.


Of course I agree bad breeding should not be supported! That is why I want the bad breeders who have multiple dogs that are not taken everywhere and only breed for money should get out of the business. I was just trying to make the point that right now because we shame people for breeding their great, healthy pets, those great pets (of course not as great as those IPO dogs in terms of GSD standards) don't get to breed BUT the bad breeders who are not even conscientious pet owners get the market and produce those problematic pups. Of course I agree if all breeders do IPO and follow with the professional guidelines that would be great and much better than what I am suggesting, but this is not the case, that is why I suggested this as sorta harm reduction. Like, if there are gonna be unprofessional people breeding their dogs anyway due to there is an existing market and the law of demand and supply, please at least let those good owners with pets that are at least proved in everyday life breed instead of the bad breeders who keep multiple dogs on their premise. The only people affected by shaming are the good conscientious people, bad breeders will keep breeding as long as there is a market left vacant regardless of much we shame them. Thus I suggest less shaming and let the free market takes its turn and takes out the really bad breeders with competition.

At last, much respect and appreciation to all the good breeders who do everything right there, I agree you guys rock and please keep doing what you are doing. I agree that I don't have much experience with this and my suggestion might be naive, just laying it out... and sorry folks for bringing up this heated topic without appropriate wording, didn't expect so much tension...will leave this thread to avoid further debates. Take care!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sigh... 

All I know is I just took my dog out to pee, about 30 feet away from some guys jackhammering up the bank drive thru. Not an issue.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

selzer said:


> I've seen an IPO dog (WL) go to pieces and NQ in the Rally ring. His owner would not allow a stranger (me) to hold his leash while he did the walk-through. The reason was the atmosphere, inside, acoustics, thousands of dogs, carts, people, booths, loud speakers -- the dog was a nerve bag. If one of my dogs acted that way...
> 
> 
> But my dogs are not IPO dogs and they have never "truly" been tested or stressed. Whatever. People need to get over themselves. I have seen a lot of working line dogs, police dogs, that are total sissies at the vet. If one of my dogs acted that way...
> ...



Sue, I’d have to go back and re-read all of the comments, but I’m pretty sure the only one trying to turn this into a line debate is you. Everyone else has been pretty focused on the differences between good and bad breeding practices, and why it’s important for our breed to support breeders who breed ethically (regardless of if it’s their first litter or their hundredth). Of course there are bad WL breeders. Of course there are nervy WL dogs. There are less than ideal dogs and bad breeders in every line. But the GOOD breeders take responsibility if something weird happens with a breeding, and they will reevaluate what they are producing with the hopes of not repeating whatever went wrong in one of their litters. You can’t really say that about someone who doesn’t care or know what they’re doing.

I think there are probably multiple ways to prove a dog should be bred without titling in IPO, but I personally don’t feel rally alone is one of them. Obedience on leash does not prove versatility. I’m sure it tests nerve to some degree. Enough to prove a dog should be bred? Probably not in my opinion. I too have seen dogs who can do (to whatever degree) IPO fall apart in other venues. It’s a shame. I can only hope that their owners and breeders are aware of it and do not plan to further that weakness in future breedings.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs are not their pedigrees or lines???SMH!
Dogs don’t pass titles, but they certainly pass the genetics of their pedigrees and lines. Folks or newbies if you believe this you will be in for a rude awakening.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I've seen an IPO dog (WL) go to pieces and NQ in the Rally ring. His owner would not allow a stranger (me) to hold his leash while he did the walk-through. The reason was the atmosphere, inside, acoustics, thousands of dogs, carts, people, booths, loud speakers -- the dog was a nerve bag. If one of my dogs acted that way...
> 
> 
> But my dogs are not IPO dogs and they have never "truly" been tested or stressed. Whatever. People need to get over themselves. I have seen a lot of working line dogs, police dogs, that are total sissies at the vet. If one of my dogs acted that way...
> ...




Seltzer, I rally don’t understand why this is such a point of contention for you. Why stick so hard on the idea that WL dogs are nervy? The truth is that good and bad breeding exists in all line types and that a lot of what good breeding looks like is the same across lines: Care, test, test the dog’s.

The only reason I can think of that someone would argue so hard again a specific line type when nobody else is trying to have that debate, is that they are trying to deflect from any flaws in their own dog. Plank, eye, speck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

"Good owners with pets" should breed??

The problem with good owners with pets is most have NO CLUE about the breed standard, and what makes a good German shepherd dog. Sure, they LOVE their dog and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't mean it's breedworthy. Most pet owners would prefer a golden retriever in a GSD coat.

I've had a number of rescue GSDs that didn't have papers, and there's only one of them I wished I'd been able to breed. He was one of the smartest dogs I've ever had the privilege of training. He was my hearing ear dog, and he likely saved my life one night. His conformation was passable (worst feature was flat feet) and he had great hips and a gorgeous broad male head. His temperament was superb. But who's to say he would have produced a pup just like him? And even if he did, how was I going to find good homes for a litter of unregisterable puppies?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> *"Good owners with pets" should breed*??
> 
> The problem with good owners with pets is most have NO CLUE about the breed standard, and what makes a good German shepherd dog. Sure, they LOVE their dog and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't mean it's breedworthy. Most pet owners would prefer a golden retriever in a GSD coat.
> 
> I've had a number of rescue GSDs that didn't have papers, and there's only one of them I wished I'd been able to breed. He was one of the smartest dogs I've ever had the privilege of training. He was my hearing ear dog, and he likely saved my life one night. His conformation was passable (worst feature was flat feet) and he had great hips and a gorgeous broad male head. His temperament was superb. But who's to say he would have produced a pup just like him? And even if he did, how was I going to find good homes for a litter of unregisterable puppies?


I'm a good owner, I think Shadow is just awesome! She is almost 8 and not spayed. Should I breed her? She's really cute, loves to play and is great with kids. And she IS within standard for a female! >


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> "Good owners with pets" should breed??


Many good owners do not know where and how to find the right partner, do not understand temperament enough and would not know how to place puppies, and might place the health of the mother and puppies in jeopardy. 

The GSD is potentially such an amazing breed because it is a highly optimized and balanced system. So it is easy to get it wrong and unbalanced. There are fewer degrees of freedom in getting it right in breeding working dogs than in breeding pets. And even GSDs with generations of pure pet breeding still have those working dog genes somewhere that could pop up in unexpected places. Inappropriate aggression for instance. Or just an aggression level that is too much for the average pet owner. Or shyness that comes from alertness and sensitivity to the environment, good working dog traits that need to be balanced by nerve and confidence that becomes dysfunctional without the balance. Etc., etc.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Selzer, I am just curious about your breed practices. Can you explain? How do you manage all your dogs? From reading your posts, you must have 14 or more? Where do you find the time to give them what they need or do you have help? How you match the breeding pairs? Do you have a website?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wolfy dog, I do not discuss my breeding here. For one thing, I only have a litter or two in a year and often no litters in a year. I do not have 14 dogs, if you don't count the current crop of puppies. Of the remaining dogs almost half are age 7 or older. My old ladies don't take a lot of work. 

I dunno. Everyone says Rally when they talk to me, but I got a CD on my least confident dog. Who hoo. My problem with obedience is my hearing, not being able to get the dog through the exercises. Unfortunately, you have to hear what the judge is saying behind you, and I have trouble hearing if I am not looking at someone's face. Rally is just a better fit for me. And after novice it is all off lead. Wait, they changed and added a bunch of classes. Well Rally advanced and excellent are off lead. 

The reason this became a debate on lines is because people want IPO to be the way to properly test a GSD. I actually do have a titled schutzhund dog. She is no more or less stable than any of my others. 

I hate working line dogs? No. I don't hate them. I don't like the sable color, or bicolor, or black, or white -- that is just my preference. I don't like their structure. I have seen a couple of black and brown working line dogs with nice structure that I did like though, mostly bitches. I really don't like the way WL dogs look, I prefer the German show line secondary sex characteristics. I am not a fan of the differences in temperament -- not my thing. But I don't _hate _them. If a blight struck the show line dogs and wiped them out, I would probably find some WL GSDs with the characteristics I like most. Because they are still better than any other breed out there. 

There is NOTHING wrong with having likes and dislikes when it comes to dogs. I did not make it a line debate. Some woman was suggesting that if the dogs do not act like crazy working line dogs, they aren't _real_ German Shepherds. You working line people see that and either agree or don't let it phase you, so you don't even notice it. But it is very noticeable what the bias here actually is. 

I don't care. Think what you want, like the dogs you like, breed what you want, or leave it all to the puppy mills. I would rather see pet owners breed their dogs than leaving it to the puppy mills. The ONLY way to stop puppy mills is for the demand for their dogs to go down. The ONLY way for that to happen is for more ordinary folks to breed their dogs. Yep, I would like to see that happen. 

Watery Tart, since you cannot stop mutilating my name, I have to put you on ignore.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Wolfy dog, I do not discuss my breeding here. For one thing, I only have a litter or two in a year and often no litters in a year. I do not have 14 dogs, if you don't count the current crop of puppies. Of the remaining dogs almost half are age 7 or older. My old ladies don't take a lot of work.
> 
> I dunno. Everyone says Rally when they talk to me, but I got a CD on my least confident dog. Who hoo. My problem with obedience is my hearing, not being able to get the dog through the exercises. Unfortunately, you have to hear what the judge is saying behind you, and I have trouble hearing if I am not looking at someone's face. Rally is just a better fit for me. And after novice it is all off lead. Wait, they changed and added a bunch of classes. Well Rally advanced and excellent are off lead.
> 
> ...




If you are referring to me, seltzer (as I am in fact a women), I am very much a show like person and no I did not say a dog has to act crazy to be a real GSD.  I said they have to not be a potato. There is a wide range between “potato” and “crazy.” A rage so wide you can drive a Mack truck through it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Crazy working line dogs..... but no hatred there. Lol 

Meanwhile people across 4 states lost homes yesterday and more will be lost today so moving on.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My impression is that backyard type breeders who probably aren't even "breeders" are probably contributing many more poor quality dogs over all than "puppy mills". I'd have to sit down and kind of do some math but I don't think pet stores are peddling puppies in nearly the numbers they were say in the 80s because many people do realize the problem there.

I can't see how German shepherd enthusiasts turning on each other could possibly do anything except hurt the breed. 

My takeaway from this thread is that I hope to see the best qualities in any decently bred GSD whatever the line or color. 

And if any new person seems to have a passion for the breed and thinks they might want to be a breeder one day, I hope any of you long timers with so much knowledge will embrace them somehow, even if they have stupid ideas because they don't know any better. Maybe you can find a way to educate them without chasing them off in which case they keep their bad ideas because there is no one to learn from.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Good point, Cowboysgirl! When I got my first registered dog, it was EXTREMELY hard to find an sort of a mentor to help me learn about the ins and outs of showing or trialing my dog. I got most of my education from the online community, and a cardigan Welsh corgi owner I knew from a science fiction and fantasty list I was on (SFF - Net)!

The closest German shepherd show person I was able to hook up with was in Thunder Bay, more than a full day's drive away! :surprise:


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

It blows my mind that people actually believe that if there are more pet bred bybs out there that only the puppy millers will suffer. The way to shut down puppy mills has more to do with educating buyers; giving them another cheap path to a dog does not do that. Catering to the masses will not help this breed. Having educated, responsible breeders with a vast knowledge base is what will help this breed.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> It blows my mind that people actually believe that if there are more pet bred bybs out there that only the puppy millers will suffer. The way to shut down puppy mills has more to do with educating buyers; giving them another cheap path to a dog does not do that. Catering to the masses will not help this breed. Having educated, responsible breeders with a vast knowledge base is what will help this breed.


Simple measures of center: If you add more mediocre potatoes to the dog pool, the population on average will become more like potatoes. If you allow for the mean to be susceptibility to outliers, then take the median and mode. More potatoes will move the median down toward potato. The modal value (most frequently seen value) will also be a potato. 

No, catering to the masses is note a good thing!




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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Raise your hand if you've watched an excited new owner bring a potato-GSD to a class or training or evaluation (of any sort). 

:greet:

And then the potato-GSD really cannot do the things. 

:greet:

The breed standard describes a utilitarian worker. 

Taking a #ProbablyFine approach to breeding _any_thing is good ol' fashioned sloppy animal husbandry.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

I don’t think I know what a potato dog is. I can’t imagine a GSD unable to learn Sit/Stay/Come, for example. Are there really such GSDs out there?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Beau's Mom said:


> I don’t think I know what a potato dog is. I can’t imagine a GSD unable to learn Sit/Stay/Come, for example. Are there really such GSDs out there?


I was in class with once once. She did not do the things. Her owner would call “come” and she would seem to think about it before moving toward him very slowly line molasses in January. He would say “sit” and she had to think about that too. She was not a dumb dog and knew the command, but it was like she did not care.

Another dog potatoed our in Nosework, no desire to learn the game or do the thing. Not even for food rewards or toy rewards or praise or anything. Did not care.

Basically no drive. No motivation. Does not care. Does not want to do the thighs. May seem nonreactive and solid but really just does not care about the things.




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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had 4 little rescue pups that were sweet as pie and dumb as bricks. Teaching them to sit was a chore. Easy going, simple to handle, completely non confrontational and not one of them smarter then a rock. 
The one female used to walk in to her crate and sit there staring at the back of it crying until I called her to turn around.
Potatoes would be an apt description.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

WateryTart said:


> Basically no drive. No motivation. Does not care. Does not want to do the thighs. May seem nonreactive and solid but really just does not care about the things.



Wow, this astounds me. It’s sad.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> Wow, this astounds me. It’s sad.




It’s terribly sad and also deeply frustrating. It should not be happening. Lower on the drive spectrum is once thing, but no drive is not where we should be aiming with this breed. Breeders with mediocre programs who put out potatoes are doing the breed zero favors.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Hmm, I think I understand. Maybe not stupid, just no drive or interest in learning. Though maybe the handler was the potato?


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Sabi’s Mom, ok, now I can see it. Made me lol, but yikes!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Beau's Mom said:


> Hmm, I think I understand. Maybe not stupid, just no drive or interest in learning. Though maybe the handler was the potato?



NOPE. The second once had been a performance home in the past. The handler was not a potato!



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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't condemn people who breed their pets, but I wouldn't encourage it. I am sure you can get a decent dog, but I also think it's just as likely you could end up with a hot mess. I would expect a breeder to know more about pedigrees and genetics than I do. I recognize a few names from looking at websites and lurking on forums like this one, but I wouldn't know much about the actual dog behind the title, or what kind of progeny the dogs produce, or what genes they might pass down in certain combinations. That's the kind of knowledge, I expect one learns while out doing things in the dog-world, meeting dogs, seeing them in action, and interacting with other owners, handlers, and trainers. A pet owner just doesn't have access to much of that knowledge. 

I had to study, train under experienced professionals, get a degree, and pass a test before I was qualified to work independently in my field. In the same way, I believe people who want to breed their pets should work under a more experienced breeder and become proficient in the dog-world (real-life work and qualifications would be a great equivalent to titles). If someone wants to become a knowledgeable breeder, I don't think that is an unattainable goal. But that path requires time, travel, talent, and dedication, which many people are probably not willing or able to commit. 

If I had to choose between supporting a BYB and a mill, I'd choose the BYB. But I have to believe that there are more options than that. Anyway, if the listings on my local craigslist are any indication, backyard and accidental breeders aren't disappearing any time soon.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Beau's Mom said:


> Sabi’s Mom, ok, now I can see it. Made me lol, but yikes!


They really were the sweetest puppies. Absolute little darlings, but representing the breed? Horrible. No courage, no drive, no brains. Came off a local pup farm that after 20 years was finally shut down. All he bred were shepherds so I couldn't even fantasize about crosses.
They all went to awesome homes though.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Not a German Shepherd but my MIL lost her sweet (super smart) German Schzouzner at 15 years old. After about 6 months she was ready for another companion dog. I could strangle my SIL because I have no idea where she got this puppy from (she got her train wreck GSD from her friends mom "who only breeds once a year" to whatever GSD she can find). 


This dog (poodle/maltese) has no light in his eyes, no intelligence. It's hard to even describe it. He's full of energy and can bounce all over but there's no meaning to it. He's obsessed with trying to lick everyone's mouth - it's so **** weird. You honestly can't do anything with him. He's not interested in toys, his owner, nothing. This is not a training issue - this is awful genetics. He's now 4 years old, same dog. I feel bad for her because she was use to a companion dog. 


(but I'm the crazy one for buying from a reputable breeder, driving hours to get there and paying $$)


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’m lucky in that I’ve been able to spend considerable time with a lot of dogs in my own dogs pedigrees, and relatives of those dogs. I know what I’m getting, because I personally know the dogs they came from. I had the daughter (Sage) and now have the granddaughter (Scarlet) of one of my very favorite bitches. They are very very similar. Carly is exactly like her mother, down to the crazy ball drive. 

Talking about food drive, Scarlet will do anything for food. I had to laugh, today Scarlet and I were driving through the bank, and she has recently discovered that sometimes you get a dog biscuit in the tube. Today she not only stuck her head out the window waiting for the tube to come down the chute, but also had a leg sticking out the window. 

A little story about Life with Scarlet… 
Came home from work with Scarlet today, and I went into my tv room. She came to the baby gate and started barking at me, so I let her in with me. She dove over my head on the couch (lunatic) and then ran back to the baby gate barking at me (that “Timmy’s in the well“ bark). I got up, lecturing her the whole way about how obnoxious she was and that she could just stay out there. Then I see the dog door is closed. She’s barking and carrying on all the way to the back door. Sometimes when you need to pee, you need to pee!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My impression is that backyard type breeders who probably aren't even "breeders" are probably contributing many more poor quality dogs over all than "puppy mills". I'd have to sit down and kind of do some math but I don't think pet stores are peddling puppies in nearly the numbers they were say in the 80s because many people do realize the problem there.
> 
> I can't see how German shepherd enthusiasts turning on each other could possibly do anything except hurt the breed.
> 
> ...


With the internet, they do not need the pet stores to sell their puppies. They are still big business.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

dogfaeries said:


> I’m lucky in that I’ve been able to spend considerable time with a lot of dogs in my own dogs pedigrees, and relatives of those dogs. I know what I’m getting, because I personally know the dogs they came from. I had the daughter (Sage) and now have the granddaughter (Scarlet) of one of my very favorite bitches. They are very very similar. Carly is exactly like her mother, down to the crazy ball drive.
> 
> Talking about food drive, Scarlet will do anything for food. I had to laugh, today Scarlet and I were driving through the bank, and she has recently discovered that sometimes you get a dog biscuit in the tube. Today she not only stuck her head out the window waiting for the tube to come down the chute, but also had a leg sticking out the window.
> 
> ...


That is the challenge, when to listen and trust what the dog is telling you verses when they are just being a PITA. Some dogs make that choice easy, and others make it impossible at times LOL! Based on many experiences where a dog acted out of character in the past though, I usually go with trusting the dog in most cases now...


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