# Serious problem



## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

I have a female gsd 1.5 year old. She is in heat so I decided to have one male too to have them pair up. But the thing is female is aggressive today's male, I don't understand why she keep on attacking now and then. Kindly help


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Because she doesnt want to be bred.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

It seems to be OK to me if she don't want to, but can they make a pair cause I just love her and don't want her to get hurt or hurt the other one. Cause male is very curious and protective about her but is doesn't feel the same way.


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Spay/neuter both your dogs. By doing it you can prevent a lot of diseases including cancer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdworld7 said:


> Spay/neuter both your dogs. By doing it you can prevent a lot of diseases including cancer.


That is not true. You need to read the latest studies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Er Shwetank Srivastava said:


> It seems to be OK to me if she don't want to, but can they make a pair cause I just love her and don't want her to get hurt or hurt the other one. Cause male is very curious and protective about her but is doesn't feel the same way.


Are you trying to breed them? Or Are you trying to help them live together? I think I misunderstood your original question.

How long have you had him? How old is he?


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

gsdworld7 said:


> Spay/neuter both your dogs. By doing it you can prevent a lot of diseases including cancer.


 thx for suggestion.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Er Shwetank Srivastava said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to be OK to me if she don't want to, but can they make a pair cause I just love her and don't want her to get hurt or hurt the other one. Cause male is very curious and protective about her but is doesn't feel the same way.
> ...


 my original objective was to breed them but since female is not allowing so I don't want to. I just want to help them make a good beauty pair. May be then there should be no problem in breeding too.

For now I just want to make successful pair. Male is just about same age as my female is around 1.5 years.


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> That is not true. You need to read the latest studies.


Well I had an unspayed female who had breast cancer. After every heat her condition would get worse. Better safe than sorry.

There are more benefits when you spay/neuter your dog than when you don't.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

gsdworld7 said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > That is not true. You need to read the latest studies.
> ...


 can you name some of the spray easily available.


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Er Shwetank Srivastava said:


> can you name some of the spray easily available.


The 'spay' I am referring to is actually a surgery that removes both the ovaries and the uterus in female dogs.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

gsdworld7 said:


> Er Shwetank Srivastava said:
> 
> 
> > can you name some of the spray easily available.
> ...


 aah OK got it...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

gsdworld7 said:


> Well I had an unspayed female who had breast cancer. After every heat her condition would get worse. Better safe than sorry.
> 
> There are more benefits when you spay/neuter your dog than when you don't.


This is not entirely accurate. Dogs can live long healthy lives without ever being spayed or neutered. Yes, it may reduce the risks of some cancers slightly. I think genetics, diet, nutrition and environment play a far greater role.


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> This is not entirely accurate. Dogs can live long healthy lives without ever being spayed or neutered. Yes, it may reduce the risks of some cancers slightly. I think genetics, diet, nutrition and environment play a far greater role.


I agree with you. My German Shepherd lived for thirteen years and he wasn't neutered. But in my opinion spaying/neutering can be good, especially for female dogs as the surgery reduces the risk of them developing pyometra.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

"reduces the risk of them developing pyometra."

:rofl:

Um, it seems you don't fully understand what pyometra is. It's an infection of the uterus.
A bitch cannot get pyometra if she doesn't HAVE a uterus!

Yes, I know...language barrier. Sorry for laughing, it's been a rough day...


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> "reduces the risk of them developing pyometra."
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> ...


Don't worry, it wasn't a language barrier. I meant what I said. Spayed female dogs can get stump pyometras if any ovarian tissue is left behind during their spay and the uterus is removed.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

On spaying & reducing risk of cancer. Mammary cancer, yes but spaying seems to increase the risk of hemangio. Mammary cancer can be detected and breasts can be removed. Hemangio - detected only when full blown and the blood cannot be removed. So - it is not as clear cut as it once was thought to be.


Back to breeding --- 1.5 years is too young --- people here will encourage you, wherever you live, to get health clearances and those cannot be done until 2 yo for some issues. We will also encourage you to work your dogs to obtain some titles. (Yes, we are a pain in the patoot on these issues.) Please look in to this beyond "they are beautiful dogs." I've had beautiful dogs with assorted health issues you couldn't see by just looking at them. 



I look forward to hearing how your health clearances turn out and what success you have had either with a sport or with the show ring. I am sure they are lovely dogs and it would be nice to see photos of them, too. (whether or not you go on to compete and title them).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdworld7 said:


> Well I had an unspayed female who had breast cancer. After every heat her condition would get worse. Better safe than sorry.
> 
> There are more benefits when you spay/neuter your dog than when you don't.



Yeah??? I had a spayed female with hip dysplasia, torn acl and died young of hemangiosarcoma. She hit all the big 3 that has a higher rate when desexed. You need to read the latest research. Your statement is not correct.

If your female had mammary cancer, why did you continue to let her go thru heats? Why did you not spay and have the mammary glands removed immediately?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are many benefits to keeping hormones. Although genetics is the biggest contributor regarding cancer and health issue . If you decide to spay it is best to do so at two years old not younger regarding hormones. In unspayed females pyometria and mammary tumors are a concern and need to be aware of. one of the most common tumors -in females is mAmmary tumors 50% of them are malignant and spread before are detected- the other 50% can be removed. you have to do what you feel is best for you and your dog and your situation after you do some research and come to that conclusion for yourself. 

I know about high carbs but I heard diets that are high in red meat increase the risk of mammary tumors In females. I know this to be true in people but not in dogs was surprised to hear this.


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## gsdworld7 (Nov 3, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Yeah??? I had a spayed female with hip dysplasia, torn acl and died young of hemangiosarcoma. She hit all the big 3 that has a higher rate when desexed. You need to read the latest research. Your statement is not correct.
> 
> If your female had mammary cancer, why did you continue to let her go thru heats? Why did you not spay and have the mammary glands removed immediately?


My female dog had heart problems and she wouldn't have survived the surgery. Thank you for your curiosity.

You liked a comment that said, and I quote, "(...) genetics, diet, nutrition and environment play a far greater role." Funny how this statement does not apply to your dog's situation - instead you blame it all on the spay surgery.

Anyway, I'm not here to pick a fight. I apologize to the thread starter as it seems things have gotten out of hand.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> There are many benefits to keeping hormones. Although genetics is the biggest contributor regarding cancer and health issue . If you decide to spay it is best to do so at two years old not younger regarding hormones. In unspayed females pyometria and mammary tumors are a concern and need to be aware of. one of the most common tumors -in females is mAmmary tumors 50% of them are malignant and spread before are detected- the other 50% can be removed. you have to do what you feel is best for you and your dog and your situation after you do some research and come to that conclusion for yourself.
> 
> I know about high carbs but I heard diets that are high in red meat increase the risk of mammary tumors In females. I know this to be true in people but not in dogs was surprised to hear this.


I agree with the health benefits of keeping hormones. I've read what Jax wrote about CCL tears and hemangio in spayed bitches and did not spay my mine. At 3 she got a small mammary tumor that was malignant, it was removed along with her ovaries a month ago, fortunately I got it early and it didn't metastasize. I'm praying she's one of the 25% where it's one and done. We'll see what the future holds but I've changed my mind about not spaying by age 2. My vet said to reduce carbs so my girl is back on raw. I asked about the meat as I too heard red meat feeds cancer (my dog has primarily eaten beef) and the reply was the carbs are the larger concern.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

ausdland said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > There are many benefits to keeping hormones. Although genetics is the biggest contributor regarding cancer and health issue . If you decide to spay it is best to do so at two years old not younger regarding hormones. In unspayed females pyometria and mammary tumors are a concern and need to be aware of. one of the most common tumors -in females is mAmmary tumors 50% of them are malignant and spread before are detected- the other 50% can be removed. you have to do what you feel is best for you and your dog and your situation after you do some research and come to that conclusion for yourself.
> ...


I’m glad you caught it in time and she lives a long and healthy life. Yeah carbs- the sugar feeds on cancer cells make sense to me.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

Er Shwetank Srivastava said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > Er Shwetank Srivastava said:
> ...


 can someone help me out with the problem I am in please.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdworld7 said:


> My female dog had heart problems and she wouldn't have survived the surgery. Thank you for your curiosity.
> 
> You liked a comment that said, and I quote, "(...) genetics, diet, nutrition and environment play a far greater role." Funny how this statement does not apply to your dog's situation - instead you blame it all on the spay surgery.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not here to pick a fight. I apologize to the thread starter as it seems things have gotten out of hand.


Apparently you are here to pick a fight. I happen to like many of Jim's post and that particular post had more content that what you've quoted. 

In addition to having spayed her early, she had minimal vaccinations and a healthy raw diet. I did not blame her death on the spay. I said she had the 3 big health issues that have a higher rate with being desexed. I also said...TWICE...that you need to read the latest studies because your statement is not correct. Funny how your animals were not fixed and lived to be 13 but your statement doesn't apply to your dog's situation.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I can...

Neither of your dogs are old enough to be bred...so don't! And because you didn't know this already...please don't try again!

If you care anything about your dog's, or the breed, do a heck of a lot more research before you EVER consider breeding any dogs again...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

OP, do yourself and the world a favor. Don't breed your dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You will have to always separate them when the female is in heat. You can always board/kennel your male with the breeder or a boarding place if you are unable to keep them separated.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> I’m glad you caught it in time and she lives a long and healthy life. Yeah carbs- the sugar feeds on cancer cells make sense to me.


Thanks. I'll be feeding more duck and pork, less beef. Sugar (simple carbs) feeds cancer, I've read red meat might too.

Sorry to totally derail your thread OP. IMO your bitch is too young to be bred and you should leave it to the professionals.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

ausdland said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I’m glad you caught it in time and she lives a long and healthy life. Yeah carbs- the sugar feeds on cancer cells make sense to me.
> ...


Yes red meat that was what surprised me in dogs-if they can not eat it -who can. Is pork consider red meat?


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> ausdland said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks. I'll be feeding more duck and pork, less beef. Sugar (simple carbs) feeds cancer, I've read red meat might too.
> ...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh okay I know some cuts of pork can be healthy and some not -was not sure how they lumped that in.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

With all due respect, I don't think anybody who doesn't have any knowledge of spaying and neutering and only wants to breed dogs to 'keep each other company, but the female doesn't want to' should be responsible for any kind of breeding especially breeding dogs that will have 8-10 puppies born into this world. Just. No.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I grew up in a country where spaying and neutering is very uncommon up until now and that's probably one of the reasons they've never gotten even close to controlling the stray animals population so I know how it is. My dalmatian mated with a stray dog who got into our house, it was in the 90s and we didn't know anything about neutering or spaying dogs. If I didn't live in the US, I would spay my dog soon as possible despite the studies because the possibility of a bitch mating with random dogs even in a closed area like a HOUSE is very real.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

No, Gsdworld7 - You are correct to some extent. It is limited in what it will help but in males, neutering helps prevent some types of cancer and definitely prevents testicular cancer. In females, spaying helps prevent many reproductive system cancers. The biggest advantage of spaying is it unquestionably does prevent back-yard breeding and unwanted dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The bitch is too young, really.  But she is also not in standing heat. She will snap at and possibly bite and damage your dog. Stud dogs can be ruined by bitches savaging them, especially if they are young and inexperienced. 

Inexperienced dogs will hump the head, and jump on her, and jump off when she moves or squeals and will need to try and try and try and try to get it right. Even an experienced bitch can be annoyed by a young male trying to figure things out. But a young inexperienced bitch may seriously attack a young male when she is not in standing heat, and that can dry up his sex-drive. 

So leaving your two together throughout the heat cycle will probably result in puppies. Because she may just stand for him when the time is right and she wants this to happen as much as he does. Do Not expect them to just not have puppies. That isn't likely. It is far more likely for him to complete the act when she is ready. 

Which comes to the next important point: an 18 month old bitch is a puppy. She can have puppies, but her temperament and demeaner will be imprinted on the puppies. Being immature, she will likely be overly nervous, possibly unreasonably protective, and this will be imprinted on the puppies, and you will likely pass on some nasty temperament. 

Another possibility is that her mother instincts may not present themselves as they should. Which could mean a bitch that savages, kills, and even eats her puppies -- rare, but not unheard of. More likely is a bitch who is totally overwhelmed and does not do what is needed for the puppies. Her job is huge. The puppies must be cleaned, protected, kept warm, fed, and helped to potty -- by her. She does this 24/7 and cat naps when she can. If she produces a litter too young, you may end up feeding a litter of 7 to 14 puppies every two hours and stimulating them to potty, and cleaning them. This is much more than a full-time job. It's a huge undertaking. One bitch can do it. Maybe a single person that is not working can manage it, but not without becoming cranky from lack of sleep. You would have to tube feed them, or you would spend your whole life just feeding them, if you could get them to take the bottle at all. 

The bitch may do just fine raising the litter though. There is that possibility. But, she is a puppy, and that will mature her fast. It will change her. And some of those changes will be an improvement. But I like to assess a bitch at two and then decide to breed or to wait another year or so. If she is still very much a puppy at two, I will give her that time and wait another year. I think it makes them better mothers not to rush the growing up process. I could be all wet on that. It is just an opinion. 

Good luck with your dogs. Take this heat cycle off, and learn all you can about breeding and raising puppies, about the German Shepherd breed, about nutrition and health problems, and about training -- all of these you should be pretty well-versed in so that when you sell your puppies, you will be able to help your puppy buyers with their questions and choices. 

It wouldn't hurt to take a crash course in genetics and to begin to study the pedigrees of your dogs. At the very least, you should ensure that no dog is repeated within 3 generations -- puppy, parents, grand-parents. Great grand-parents would be 3-3 breeding and that is tight, you would want to know that that dog, if present, was exemplary, because you are doubling up on its genetic contribution. 

What lines are your dogs? Hopefully both are of the same lines. And that goes beyond working lines and show lines. The working lines have DDR, WGWL, Czech and so forth. The show lines have German Show lines, Canadian and American show lines, and others. For a first litter especially, you shouldn't even consider coloring outside of the lines. Once you can make spectacular art within the lines, then you can think about coloring a little outside of the lines. Breeding across the lines can be done for specific reasons and a plan in place for progeny and how to proceed with them, but if not done with a lot of knowledge and experience, you will just be producing poorly bred pet-line dogs whose character and conformation will not be uniform, and more likely than not to have more negatives of both lines come out than not. 

Sounds like a lot. It is. It can't all be done with one heat cycle, but if you are diligent you can learn a lot. Some of the learning can only happen by doing. But you want to have a great bit of it done before you breed your first litter. This will give the puppies the best chance at being what you want to produce.


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## Er Shwetank Srivastava (Nov 8, 2018)

selzer said:


> The bitch is too young, really. But she is also not in standing heat. She will snap at and possibly bite and damage your dog. Stud dogs can be ruined by bitches savaging them, especially if they are young and inexperienced.
> 
> Inexperienced dogs will hump the head, and jump on her, and jump off when she moves or squeals and will need to try and try and try and try to get it right. Even an experienced bitch can be annoyed by a young male trying to figure things out. But a young inexperienced bitch may seriously attack a young male when she is not in standing heat, and that can dry up his sex-drive.
> 
> ...


 thx u so much for such a elaborated explanation. Lots of info from ur content.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I am a little confused what OP's goals are. Mostly just for the dogs to get along? I'd spay and neuter both and then the likelihood of future drama is hugely reduced.

Sure it can be good for dogs to have hormones, but it can also be bad! Like when they make puppies from young, unproven parents!

This is something that comes up over and over on this board and it surprises me every time. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon, don't spay or neuter because they need their hormones. At what cost? That's a totally fine thing to say to someone who is keeping their dogs responsibly and isn't producing accidental or poorly planned litters. My dog is intact and he sure as heck isn't breeding anything.

But there are tons of people who aren't going to keep their dogs that way...people with no fenced yard who allow their dogs to roam have been told not to neuter on here! Are you kidding me? I think the bigger picture is more important than that one dog. And that one dog's health is one thing but what about the health and wellbeing of the whole litter of puppies he just sired on an adventure around town? This person who just has two dogs randomly trying to breed each other? I don't think they should stay intact at all, I think the male should be sent to the vet for neutering now while the female is in heat, and then her as soon as her heat is over.

Everything in reason. I don't think dogs should be bred without being worked or titled in some capacity, had as much health testing as possible, and hopefully matched to a mate who could be hoped to improve upon the sire and dam. Whole litter produced by someone who cares about the breed and has done their best to contribute worthy examples of the breed. 

If responsible people want to keep non breeding animals intact no problem. But if you aren't set up for that, then don't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am a little confused what OP's goals are. Mostly just for the dogs to get along? I'd spay and neuter both and then the likelihood of future drama is hugely reduced.
> 
> Sure it can be good for dogs to have hormones, but it can also be bad! Like when they make puppies from young, unproven parents!
> 
> ...


Well, you have a point. I don't necessarily agree with it. If it is healthier for you and me to keep our animals intact, than it is healthier for the OP to keep his intact. To say otherwise, in my opinion is a lie. So if I believe it is healthier for a dog to retain its hormones, and I tell this person that he should neuter or spay, than I have committed of sin of commission by telling someone to do something against their better interests. If I just shut up and say nothing, than I have committed a sin of omission by seeing misinformation (in my opinion) and not saying something. 

I believe education is the answer but only with good information. So telling them that they should spay or neuter, for me would not be good information. Also, if I take the hard stance, No don't breed your bitch, what makes her so special, so exemplary, what does she bring to the table, is she A, is she B, is she C, is she D, is she E, she is? All of them, well, you still shouldn't breed because there is a dog somewhere in a shelter that is going to die and to even consider it makes you a Neanderthal. I could do that. But, how could I ever buy a dog from a breeder? How could I ever own another purebred dog with a clear conscience? 

At the end of the day if the man breeds his bitch it will not change the GSD breed forever. Face it, he will not be breeding for people who are serious show breeders, they are going for certain names and blood lines, and established breeders. And he isn't going to produce dogs for the working line competitors. They know who they want to buy their dogs from. The pups will go to pet homes, which are very many. So many, that the true puppy mills, the ones with 7 or 8 hundred bitches, even a thousand bitches -- they just keep breeding and breeding. The chances are his bitch will have good food, veterinary care, and the puppies will be raised in a home, and they will have a good chance of being homed to a select number of people. 

If I can make them think about it. If I can explain a little of what it entails, if I can get them to wait until the bitch is mature, then I have accomplished something, and some of those folks will change their mind in six months about breeding at all. Those that will not, will not anyway, whatever you tell them, for the most part. 

Taking the hard-line: OMG!!!! Neuter already!!! Well that just makes the novice think we are bat-poop-crazy, and they totally discount us. How does that help anything? Really.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Well, you have a point. I don't necessarily agree with it. If it is healthier for you and me to keep our animals intact, than it is healthier for the OP to keep his intact. To say otherwise, in my opinion is a lie. So if I believe it is healthier for a dog to retain its hormones, and I tell this person that he should neuter or spay, than I have committed of sin of commission by telling someone to do something against their better interests. If I just shut up and say nothing, than I have committed a sin of omission by seeing misinformation (in my opinion) and not saying something.
> 
> I believe education is the answer but only with good information. So telling them that they should spay or neuter, for me would not be good information. Also, if I take the hard stance, No don't breed your bitch, what makes her so special, so exemplary, what does she bring to the table, is she A, is she B, is she C, is she D, is she E, she is? All of them, well, you still shouldn't breed because there is a dog somewhere in a shelter that is going to die and to even consider it makes you a Neanderthal. I could do that. But, how could I ever buy a dog from a breeder? How could I ever own another purebred dog with a clear conscience?
> 
> ...


Okay well some of this is a little black and white and some of it is totally missing my point.

First, if it wasn't clear in my other post, I was never trying to say anyone should lie to someone about whether it's healthier to keep their dog intact. There's some research that seems to say it is, but none of us REALLY know and we all make the best choices we can for our dogs. The point I was trying to make is that in the wrong hands, an intact animal is causing much more poor health and poor lives overall by indiscriminately breeding which to me cancels out the benefit to that individual dog of staying intact. Bigger picture. 

Sure, some people won't change their minds no matter what you say but you still don't have to give them one more reason why they should not spay and neuter if they might have been open to it.

Like I said, I'm still not even sure what the OP's goal is and if the two dogs getting along with minimal stress is the goal then I stand behind my suggestion to spay and neuter both, and they won't be trying to breed each other and potentially fight off other suitors or who knows what else. 

This statement: " All of them, well, you still shouldn't breed because there is a dog somewhere in a shelter that is going to die and to even consider it makes you a Neanderthal. I could do that. But, how could I ever buy a dog from a breeder? How could I ever own another purebred dog with a clear conscience? "

just has nothing to do with my point and I imagine you might recall I even get annoyed at the breeder snobbery and I DON'T think you ought to have to be some 1% of breed enthusiasts to ever be worthy of breeding dogs. I also don't think anybody should just breed any old dog willy nilly at any age without any concern for the outcome. There's so much in between! I'm not trying to go to any extremes, I don't like absolutes period because they don't serve that much.

I don't want to be in any camp-- never spay or neuter any dog OR spay and neuter all dogs. They are both wrong. I'm not a crazy animal right's person. And saying take a hard line and neuter...well there's a big difference between that and a whole bunch of people saying DON'T neuter the dog. meh whatever--extreme one way or the other is exactly what I aim not to be. 

I buy dogs from responsible breeders and i am currently disgusted with the rescue organizations for the most part after I just heard yet another newly adopted rottie (this is the 3rd I know of of that breed only and maybe dozen or more counting all breeds) has bitten its new owner within 24 hrs of being adopted.

There is such a big difference in the dogs I deal with who come from good breeders and the ones who come from crappy ones. And sadly the percentages seem to be way skewed toward crappy. And then there are dogs with such sweet temperaments but physical train wrecks and crippled at young ages. It's sad. It's in my face every day.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

^ the OP wants to breed his two dogs that are 1.5 years old. (?) The bitch isn't standing for the male. Somehow the thread turned to spay/neuter, maybe because the OP has two intact dogs and doesn't seem to have a clue about breeding.

Agreed no one can say with 100% certainty if it's best for the dog to spay, there's pros/cons. If one can't be a responsible owner and avoid unwanted mating spay/neuter is the better choice for the 'big picture'.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^exactly

the end.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ausdland said:


> ^ the OP wants to breed his two dogs that are 1.5 years old. (?) The bitch isn't standing for the male. Somehow the thread turned to spay/neuter, maybe because the OP has two intact dogs and doesn't seem to have a clue about breeding.
> 
> Agreed no one can say with 100% certainty if it's best for the dog to spay, there's pros/cons. If one can't be a responsible owner and avoid unwanted mating spay/neuter is the better choice for the 'big picture'.


Only, the owner did not say he couldn't avoid unwanted mating. In fact, it would be wanted mating. Encouraging the owner to wait is, in my opinion more honest, especially if we are keeping our own animals intact whether we intend to breed them or not.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Absolutely Agree. It doesn't matter if you paid $5000 per dog, if the match up is wrong it is a disservice to the breed and to the pups that might be born. Breeding should be left to REPUTABLE breeders/kennels and hopefully they will respect the public by offering reasonable prices. We have had our females spayed and the last male neutered out of respect for the breed. I love GSDs and it is upsetting to see low quality dogs (or mismatched genetics) producing low quality pups. Just my opinion.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, this has gotten all way off topic. 

But let me throw this out for the OP. I had Bud through two of Sabi's heats before she was spayed. Because I knew she wouldn't stand and because Bud was a goofy 1 year old at the time I was ok with them playing together supervised for the first one. She snipped at him for getting too lovey a couple of times but no big deal. The second time two things happened, when he was about 1.5 and she would have been just around 2. He snarled at me for not letting him go to her, I handled that pretty quick, but he also got away from my husband and got a bit too amorous with her and she levelled him. She laid right into him and had him on the ground yelping in seconds. Had I ever really wanted to breed him that could have been a catastrophe. For years he was safe around females for the simple reason that he wouldn't even try. He was nothing but submissive to any intact female. No matter how hard they tried to interest him he wouldn't even try. 

So if you think your plan is to breed him in the future, I would stop what is going on right now.


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## Benjaminb (Aug 14, 2017)

IMO if the OP doesn't even know what spaying or neutering means He/she has no business breeding. Just my 2¢ worth


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

*breeding*

To me Breeding is only for breeding better/healthier/disease free future dogs. I was thinking about breeding my young male in the future because of his attitude, calm and loving demeanor but when the vet said he has a slight over bite I said nope-no breeding for you:crying:= he is not as perfect as can be in his conformation but out of all the GSD and pound puppies I have had in my life (senior citizen) he is perfect in his mind/attitude0. If I was to ever breed him it would be for me alone on my farm(I usually keep 3 dogs out here with a 1 rescue/pound puppy to 2 pure bred ratio) with none to sell or give away so that would be about 2-3 puppies so how do you guarantee 2-3 puppies? I can’t.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Benjaminb said:


> IMO if the OP doesn't even know what spaying or neutering means He/she has no business breeding. Just my 2¢ worth



Do we know that the OP is located in Canada or the US? I did not see that confirmed anywhere, and the English may not be first language. Also, if he lives outside of the US/Canada, spaying and neutering animals may not be as common there as it is here. So blanket statements like this are not always accurate. 




dojoson41 said:


> To me Breeding is only for breeding better/healthier/disease free future dogs. I was thinking about breeding my young male in the future because of his attitude, calm and loving demeanor but when the vet said he has a slight over bite I said nope-no breeding for you:crying:= he is not as perfect as can be in his conformation but out of all the GSD and pound puppies I have had in my life (senior citizen) he is perfect in his mind/attitude0. If I was to ever breed him it would be for me alone on my farm(I usually keep 3 dogs out here with a 1 rescue/pound puppy to 2 pure bred ratio) with none to sell or give away so that would be about 2-3 puppies so how do you guarantee 2-3 puppies? I can’t.



If only perfect dogs are bred, we will not have a breed in a few doggy-generations. Perfect is in Heaven. Yes, breeders should be breeding for health first, then temperament, then structure. However, I think that sometimes when we make decisions based on one aspect we throw out the baby with the bathwater. You have a slight over-bite. How old is the puppy and does your vet even know what he is talking about? 



Sometimes they do not. 



An slight over-bite in GSD puppies may be normal, as much as that skull grows. I have always heard an under-bite is much worse. An over-bite can literally be grown out of. 



Nevertheless, one should breed only if they have the time and the space to do it right. They should educate themselves on breeding and on the breed, on training and nutrition, health concerns within the breed and complications with pregnancy, and the laws concerning breeding/pet ownership in your location as well as the current attitudes about pets and breeding. 



The current thought is generally to leave breeding to the experts, and breed only to improve the breed, and all of that. But I think that the experts have made a mess of the breed. I am not talking about poorly bred BYB dogs. I am talking about what is seen at Crufts at our dog shows, and at the sieger show in Germany. These people are not breeding from any dog the average Joe puts together, the average pet owner who wants to breed their pet. I am not going to mention working line dogs because they aren't my thing, and I am not up to date on all the ways the best breeders are screwing them up. Though I have no doubt that they are. None of us have a monopoly on screwing up the breed. 



I'd like to say that dogs from the better breeders are healthier. But I do not have data to prove that either yay or nay. I almost think that some degeneration in the breed is built-in because of how much in-breeding is done in the name of improving the breed. 



I think that a good breeder should do the following:


They should breed to maintain the breed, by breeding as close as they can to the standard, as well as paying close attention to physical illnesses in the lines.



They should evaluate each dog that they breed or breed to, and decide yay or nay on the evaluation of the whole dog, and how that dog is complemented by the other critter being mated. 



They should encourage others to breed responsibly, and fight anti-breeding rhetoric. 



They should help those who want to breed their dogs learn as much as possible. To do this effectively, you have to be as non-judgemental as possible. 



There is more, I am sure, but I have to go to work now.


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## REDorsey (Nov 2, 2011)

"Everything in reason. I don't think dogs should be bred without being worked or titled in some capacity, had as much health testing as possible, and hopefully matched to a mate who could be hoped to improve upon the sire and dam. Whole litter produced by someone who cares about the breed and has done their best to contribute worthy examples of the breed." - THANK YOU. I feel the same way about horses but it seems the least educated about breed standards and performance like to breed mares just to do it - and then we end up with more mediocre horses running through the slaughterhouses. 

The OP strikes me as the same type - just with dogs.


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