# Best way to socialize aggressive GSD?



## evilstevie (Jan 28, 2012)

Our 4 YO male GSD is great around people, great around his older lab-mix brother, and that's it.

He is tolerant of other small, non-threatening dogs, but hyper-aggressive towards larger dogs.

Our neighbors have a 3 YO female pit bull, who is extremely laid back and mild. We're trying to get our GSD to the point where he will play with her, and not rush in and nip/bite/bark at her constantly as has been the case their past 2 or 3 encounters. We have been keeping our GSD leashed around her, as we're pretty sure that he'll just tear into her if he's not on a leash.

My thoughts so far are: 
1)Get our GSD a muzzle, so they can be let loose together without him attacking her.
2) Excercise them together, on leashes and without muzzle if possible, so that eventually he'll be too tired to fight, and will get used to her, and then all will be OK.

I'm quite sure that given enough time together he would be fine with her, but we need to keep the bloodshed to a minimum in the mean time.

Any useful tips are appreciated.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

why do you need to put the dogs together?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> why do you need to put the dogs together?


This. 

Dogs don't need to play with dogs to be happy. What your doing is dangerous and puts both dogs at risk. Please do not muzzle your dog aggressive dog and force it to "play" with another dog.

I would suggest a reputable trainer who has experience with dog aggression. Your dog needs to be assessed by such a person so as to identify what is going on and just how far you may or may not get with training.

With my past dog aggressive GSD, my goal was to have him ignore other dogs, not play with them.


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## evilstevie (Jan 28, 2012)

Saphire said:


> This.
> 
> Dogs don't need to play with dogs to be happy. What your doing is dangerous and puts both dogs at risk. Please do not muzzle your dog aggressive dog and force it to "play" with another dog.
> 
> ...


Well I don't have to do anything. I could continue to have an aggressive, anti-social GSD who constantly fights with other dogs, I suppose. He could spend the rest of his life staring out the window, not playing with other dogs. But I would like not to have that. I would like to have a GSD that is capable of having fun and playing with other dogs. Either this particular neighbor dog, or any other dog. I believe, based on my GSD's behavior with his older brother, and his time spend with smaller dogs, that he would have a great time playing with another dog more his size.
He just needs to get over the hump, so to speak. I think a good walk/run together might be in order.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

evilstevie said:


> Well I don't have to do anything. I could continue to have an aggressive, anti-social GSD who constantly fights with other dogs, I suppose. He could spend the rest of his life staring out the window, not playing with other dogs. But I would like not to have that. I would like to have a GSD that is capable of having fun and playing with other dogs. Either this particular neighbor dog, or any other dog. I believe, based on my GSD's behavior with his older brother, and his time spend with smaller dogs, that he would have a great time playing with another dog more his size.
> He just needs to get over the hump, so to speak. I think a good walk/run together might be in order.


I would seek out a behaviorist and start thinking about things from your dog's point of view. Are you going to force your dog to be social if that's not what he wants to be? He obviously needs to be under control and that is something you can work on with him, but if he simply does not enjoy the company of other dogs besides the ones he gets along with currently, why force him and create stress? If you want a social dog who will play with all other dogs, get another dog that actually wants to do this. Don't project onto your current dog. Work with the dog you have in front of you. Trying to make him something he's not will just end badly for both of you.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

These responses though. How is it that you can "force" a dog to do everything else in the world. Like IPO, sit, don't chase other animals but instead come to you. But when it comes to antisocial dogs. All of a sudden it's stressful or you can't train the German Shepherd to like dogs. They're one of the smartest breeds out there. You can train them to get along with dogs, just like you can train them to do any and everything else. I'm not a dog training expert nor am I a behaviorist. But I am dealing with the same problem. When I do find a good trainer, apart of our agreement will be "if you can't actually fix this problem, not say he'll never like other dogs, but actually fix it then you have to refund it." Plain and simple.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

DJMac said:


> These responses though. How is it that you can "force" a dog to do everything else in the world. Like IPO, sit, don't chase other animals but instead come to you. But when it comes to antisocial dogs. All of a sudden it's stressful or you can't train the German Shepherd to like dogs. They're one of the smartest breeds out there. You can train them to get along with dogs, just like you can train them to do any and everything else. I'm not a dog training expert nor am I a behaviorist. But I am dealing with the same problem. When I do find a good trainer, apart of our agreement will be "if you can't actually fix this problem, not say he'll never like other dogs, but actually fix it then you have to refund it." Plain and simple.


You can't "force" a dog to sit or do IPO or anything else. He does is because there is some sort of reward in it. Either there is a reward he earns after or while he does it, or he does it to avoid something he does not enjoy. But asking a dog to enjoy playing with another dog is typically asking it to change its personality. It's like asking me to be a social butterfly when people to me are just mentally and emotionally exhausting. I can interact with a bunch of people as part of my job, sure, but I'm not going to ever choose to have tons of friends and people respect that. I feel like we should have the same respect for our dogs.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Do you interact with those people at work aggressively? No. So it's not comparable. It's not changing the dog's personality. Maybe the dog wasn't properly socialized from the start. Then it's more like introducing him to new things. Showing him a new way to play and entertain himself.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

DJMac said:


> Do you interact with those people at work aggressively? No. So it's not comparable. It's not changing the dog's personality. Maybe the dog wasn't properly socialized from the start. Then it's more like introducing him to new things. Showing him a new way to play and entertain himself.


You missed my point entirely. Sitting, retrieving, IPO are tasks that can be taught. A dog can be taught to not react aggressively to other dogs. A dog isn't taught to "enjoy" other dogs. If a dog doesn't enjoy another dog, they can be taught to tolerate them, but not enjoy them. But the OP wants her dog to enjoy other dogs. It's projecting human expectations onto an animal. It's unrealistic.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Also, to be fair there is a difference between a dog that does not have the social skills to interact properly and a dog that just genuinely does not want to interact. But the OP will not know which side of the fence their dog is on until they consult a behaviorist who can evaluate their dog.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I agree with Pax8. There is no reason so force this dog to have a good time with other dogs. There is absolutely a way to train him to not be aggressive or reactive with them, and simply ignore them, but it doesn't mean that they will play with and be friends with every dog he meets. 

And let's be honest. You can't force any dog into a sport of any kind, either the dog has the drive and ability and does it willingly for you because it's in his genes, and you've directed that drive and energy properly or you have a dog that doesn't have the drive and won't excel at any of those sport. When you find this out, a good and responsible owner should stop working that sport with that dog and find something else for his enjoyment. 

Titan is not aggressive with other dogs at all, but he merely tolerates them. I would love to be able have all our dog friends over and they all play, but that just doesn't happen very often, if not, ever. They coexist and that's about it. I found what HE enjoys and I do that. 

OP if your dog enjoys your family dogs, that's wonderful and he will continue to enjoy playing with them. That doesn't mean he wants to play with other dogs outside his home, if he did, he wouldn't try to attack them. Find a way to manage his aggression toward other dogs, and stop forcing him to be social. Yes you should hopefully one day, long from now, go for walks with your neghbors and their dogs.

Another thing is to not tucker your dog out so that he doesn't have the energy to fight. It doesn't work that way. It's adrenaline driven and will overtake the exhaustion that he had previously. 

Find a good trainer that will help you manage and get him under control and maybe at a later time you can work on interactions with him. But start with control the current situation. 

Also, in the mean time don't try to socialize your dog if he is going to fight... even with your best intentions, being not very knowledgeable, something very bad can happen and you would be at fault. 

Now, my curiosity is, does he do this only when off lead and able to interact or does he react to all dogs even when he is on a lead and they are a distance away?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

While I don't think dogs need to play with other dogs, I would prefer if dogs that live next to each other or are neighbors can at least tolerate each other. This is especially helpful if there isn't a fence or if they can see each other through the fence. Imagine how peaceful it would be for so many people if everyone could enjoy being in their yards with their dogs and no one barking, fence fighting or trying to kill each other. I know when I lived in an apartment and I had an elderly neighbor, I took the time for my dogs to meet the other dog. They didn't play but they got to check each other out. We lived peacefully next to each other for years. His dog came to the patio and mine didn't pay attention. No barking, no fighting, just peace and there was no playing involved.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Does your neighbor think this is a good idea? Poor Pit. He will attack with muzzle or not, if you just let them out together. This can trigger DA in the neighbor's dog. Don't do it and get help from a trainer. He will never be a social butterfly. He is a GSD, not a Lab.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I have to say I am shocked, horrified and discussed by the "attitude" exhibited by the OP!

First job in rehabbing a "problem dog" is do no harm! Your "neighbor" or who ever is a fool! Three freaking bad "encounters???" The owner of the Pitt is fool! Text book perfect case of how to create a dog reactive dog!!!

The OP doing a fine job of passing "there" problem along on to someone else!!! PLEASE STOP! 

Dominate dogs don't typically get along well with other dogs! But a well trained dog can get along with other dogs with "minimal" issues! Been there done that!

Coming on board and insulting people you know nothing about is also in "poor" taste! Personally I think apologies are in order! 

But do as you will...log this info info in the data bank if you persist on "traumatizing" the poor Pitt!

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

I don't know OP, if you have a D/A dog I'd skip trying to make the dog into play buddies and concentrate on making your dog more neutral by doing stuff he actually likes doing.
I've a three-year old intact male that is tolerant of male dogs and likes female dogs, but has almost 0 interest in either gender if we're in 'work' mode, which is what we do for 90 min every morning off lead. It's a pleasure to be able to trust your dog around other dogs, but I don't think forcing dogs to 'enjoy' each other is the way forward. I'd work instead on building your dog's drive and confidence so that he is unperturbed by other dogs, rather than actively interested in them. I don't think it's really fair on the placid pitt to put her in a position where she could be hurt.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

It doesn't really matter if you view it as "forcing" your dog to play or not, the fact is it simply won't work if what you are seeing is actually aggression. Aggression is usually caused by fear and anxiety. You don't go from anxious and fearful to friendly. There's a step in between. You have to teach your dog to be neutral and modulate his emotions around other dogs before he can safely play with them. Asking for play too soon, and you can easily push the dog over threshold. A fight starts, he regresses, you are back to square one. A muzzle is a bad idea because dogs use their mouths to communicate. It will make the situation even more anxiety provoking for him. What you should look at first is desensitization and counter conditioning, then also obedience around distractions. You can't know if he wants to play until you fix the underlying emotional problem, which is overarousal.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Pax8 said:


> You can't "force" a dog to sit or do IPO or anything else. He does is because there is some sort of reward in it. Either there is a reward he earns after or while he does it, or he does it to avoid something he does not enjoy. But asking a dog to enjoy playing with another dog is typically asking it to change its personality. It's like asking me to be a social butterfly when people to me are just mentally and emotionally exhausting. I can interact with a bunch of people as part of my job, sure, but I'm not going to ever choose to have tons of friends and people respect that. I feel like we should have the same respect for our dogs.


DJ isn't being entirely unreasonable. I throw dog aggressive dogs into groups of dogs and get them to eventually get comfortable and socialized all the time. There are a few different types of dogs that people think are aggressive. 

1. Barrier aggressive/ leash reactive dogs that have been conditioned to turn into a lion when they see other dogs and are wearing a leash, but when turned loose unleashed into a group of dogs they are friendly and social. The vast majority of dogs people claim are dog aggressive fall into this category.

2. Edgy dogs that had a bad experience when younger or were just never socialized. These can be improved rapidly when socialized with other stable dogs PROPERLY.

3. Real deal dog aggressive dogs. Dogs with their wires crossed bad temperaments anti social behaviors that have been cultivated by allowing fence fighting and that kind of crap. They can't ever be fully trusted but most can be inhibited from attacking when checked by people. Some are not even worth the risk. These are actually remarkably rare but they are out there.

Socializing the 2 and 3 dogs are the realm of trainers that know what they are doing. It isn't something you can explain over the Internet. It takes timing proper procedures and knowledge of dog body language and micro gestures to do safety and even then there are risks.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You can't force a dog to like other dogs but you can condition a dog to enjoy having other dogs around. Premack principle is a beautiful thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a dog aggressive dog. Here's my personal take on DA dogs being "socialized" to play with other dogs from my years of experience of trying to do just that.

Stop. Just stop. 

Your dog does not need to play with any other dogs. And why on earth would you put another dog at risk of 


> We have been keeping our GSD leashed around her, as we're pretty sure that he'll just tear into her if he's not on a leash.


???? Why? So you are going to chance making this nice, stable, dog fear aggressive?

Work on making your dog neutral around other dog. Work on your dog focusing and playing with you, not other dogs. They truly do not need another dog to play with if they have you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Neutral is great but you do need to create some bite inhibition. There will be a day you'll be walking that dog on a leash and some idiot will have an unleashed dog and it will go running up to yours and that inhibition can be the difference between a nasty fight or a non incident.

I'm not advocating you allow strange dog interactions in uncontrolled conditions and I'm not advocating people trying to get edgy dogs to love all dogs that isn't realstic and is a bad idea for a whole host of reasons. Getting one dog to be peaceable with one other dog that they see frequently is pretty easily done though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> Neutral is great but you do need to create some bite inhibition. There will be a day you'll be walking that dog on a leash and some idiot will have an unleashed dog and it will go running up to yours and that inhibition can be the difference between a nasty fight or a non incident.


Which is part of "neutral".


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Kinda hard to get bite inhibition without putting em in front of the thing they wanna bite though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Are you purposely being obtuse? Where did I say keep them away from all dogs? Never let them see them? Obedience, bite inhibition, socialization are all parts of "neutral". 

Teach them to be neutral. That's what I said. You can save the sarcasm for someone else.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> DJ isn't being entirely unreasonable. I throw dog aggressive dogs into groups of dogs and get them to eventually get comfortable and socialized all the time. There are a few different types of dogs that people think are aggressive.
> 
> 1. Barrier aggressive/ leash reactive dogs that have been conditioned to turn into a lion when they see other dogs and are wearing a leash, but when turned loose unleashed into a group of dogs they are friendly and social. The vast majority of dogs people claim are dog aggressive fall into this category.
> 
> ...


I liked this answer. 

Most of the time through good training and understanding 'dog aggression' can be solved to an extent that the dog is not a constant liability. I know I just nip things in the bud so don't have to deal with these issues so much. But if faced with a bad boy I'd prefer to try different techniques to improve the situation. Just giving up and accepting DA dog is a cop out of challenging your own skills and handling.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Bailiff I have one of those type 3 dogs. She is well trained and I can take her anywhere, heel her off-leash with a group of dogs, but if someone else handles her and is sloppy she will attack unprovoked and not let go. She's freaky. Completely silent and serious when she wants to get another dog. But luckily it seems to be only weak or fearful dogs and not all dogs she wants to bite. Most of the "aggressive" dogs I've seen are just reactive or rude or fearful like you said. Fixing reactivity was straightforward with her, fixing the aggression is not. I wonder which this dog is?

Bottom line, we can't tell OP exactly what to do because we don't even know what the real problem is with the dog (or handler).


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## evilstevie (Jan 28, 2012)

Baillif said:


> DJ isn't being entirely unreasonable. I throw dog aggressive dogs into groups of dogs and get them to eventually get comfortable and socialized all the time. There are a few different types of dogs that people think are aggressive.
> 
> 1. Barrier aggressive/ leash reactive dogs that have been conditioned to turn into a lion when they see other dogs and are wearing a leash, but when turned loose unleashed into a group of dogs they are friendly and social. The vast majority of dogs people claim are dog aggressive fall into this category.


Thanks for a useful response. I believe the only issue with our GSD is that he was not properly socialized when young. The other dog owner, and the other dog, are both fine around our GSD. Our GSD's aggression takes the form of bull rushing, aggressive barking, and nipping, not a full on crazed-dog attack with blood and fur flying. As mentioned, he is perfectly fine around new, small dogs. I am going to attempt to train him to be tolerant of other large dogs, much like I trained him to sit, not be food aggressive, etc. I don't really anticipate this being that difficult. I really think if we left these two dogs together alone for about 3 minutes, they'd sort out the pecking order to their own satisfaction without any human intervention whatsoever. I'll update once we've had them out again.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Clarification: in your original post you described him as hyper-aggressive to some dogs. Now you are mainly describing a dog who is rude, noisy, and intimidating. You previously said he would "tear into" another dog if unleashed, but now you're saying he hasn't ever bit another dog and just needs socialization. I guess I wonder about the reason for these discrepancies and what kind of help you are hoping to receive here.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Baillif said:


> DJ isn't being entirely unreasonable. I throw dog aggressive dogs into groups of dogs and get them to eventually get comfortable and socialized all the time. There are a few different types of dogs that people think are aggressive.
> 
> 1. Barrier aggressive/ leash reactive dogs that have been conditioned to turn into a lion when they see other dogs and are wearing a leash, but when turned loose unleashed into a group of dogs they are friendly and social. The vast majority of dogs people claim are dog aggressive fall into this category.
> 
> ...





MadLab said:


> I liked this answer.
> 
> Most of the time through good training and understanding 'dog aggression' can be solved to an extent that the dog is not a constant liability. I know I just nip things in the bud so don't have to deal with these issues so much. But if faced with a bad boy I'd prefer to try different techniques to improve the situation. Just giving up and accepting DA dog is a cop out of challenging your own skills and handling.




This is exactly what I was trying to convey. I guess I haven't grown enough as a trainer to put it as Baillif said it. As MadLab said, I would rather improve the situation instead of accepting it.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't think I've seen anyone say to just accept the situation as it is. In fact, everyone is pretty consistently saying the aggression needs to be worked on.



Baillif said:


> You can't force a dog to like other dogs but you can condition a dog to enjoy having other dogs around. Premack principle is a beautiful thing.


True, I've had plenty of dog aggressive dogs that enjoyed being around other dogs using Premack. But what they really enjoyed was the reward gleaned from being around those dogs - there wasn't an inherent reward in the dogs themselves and that's the difference to the dog that I was trying to point out. What got me on about that was the way the OP was talking about their dog.

"I would like to have a GSD that is capable of having fun and playing with other dogs. Either this particular neighbor dog, or any other dog."

For the dog originally described as "hyper aggressive" I wanted to insert a dose of reality that some dogs just never enjoy being friends with all other dogs. Now that the OP has clarified that they overstated the aggression and it's just a rude dog, it's true that it's probably possible for their GSD to learn how to play with most dogs.

Though to the OP, I would seek out a trainer who can help you reach that goal in a structured way. Just "throwing" these two dogs or any dogs together without supervision and intervention when needed is a recipe for failure.

This should be a poster thread for the failings of internet communication and why training advice is nearly impossible over a forum.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

evilstevie said:


> Thanks for a useful response. I believe the only issue with our GSD is that he was not properly socialized when young. The other dog owner, and the other dog, are both fine around our GSD. Our GSD's aggression takes the form of bull rushing, aggressive barking, and nipping, not a full on crazed-dog attack with blood and fur flying. As mentioned, he is perfectly fine around new, small dogs. I am going to attempt to train him to be tolerant of other large dogs, much like I trained him to sit, not be food aggressive, etc. I don't really anticipate this being that difficult. I really think if we left these two dogs together alone for about 3 minutes, they'd sort out the pecking order to their own satisfaction without any human intervention whatsoever. I'll update once we've had them out again.


Lets get one thing very clear.

Allowing potentially aggressive dogs to "sort things out on their own" is exactly what I would NOT allow. They are put together and at the first sign of aggression the aggressor is punished. This is not something a non professional does. You WILL screw it up. Do not attempt it yourself. 

Dogs have 4 potential responses when meeting other dogs.

Fight 
Flight
Freeze (a fear response)
or Friends (or at least indifference)

A professional blocks the 3 he does not want to see and all that is left for the dog to pick is the one the professional does want to see.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Pax8 said:


> I don't think I've seen anyone say to just accept the situation as it is. In fact, everyone is pretty consistently saying the aggression needs to be worked on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They enjoy the reward only at first but then the lines between enjoying the reward and enjoying what has to happen before the reward begin to blur. That was the whole point of the premack principle. 

It does have its limits of course so for some dogs (probably the ones you're talking about) yeah they can never really be made to enjoy dog dog interactions but can at least tolerate them in the same sense that a kid will learn to tolerate brussel sprouts if the only way he could get ice cream was to have the sprouts first. You do have the kids that will eventually just like the brussel sprouts too though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> They enjoy the reward only at first but then the lines between enjoying the reward and enjoying what has to happen before the reward begin to blur. That was the whole point of the premack principle.


Premack Principle?? Hmm new term for us pet people! No problem, I found "Squezzy" Paw" guy! 

Not a fan of throwing "crap" on the ground for my dogs to eat myself but he does explain the concept.

There are a lot of things you explain that many of us do and have no awareness of?? 

No complaints here, your insight is very much valued! Just offering further explanation for those who need it...such as myself!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are dog people who do many of the right things but don't know why or don't know how it fits into learning theory or maybe even think it fits into dominance theory or something that does not do justice when it comes to explaining the why the how and whatever. They learn the how but not the why. It's important to know the why because when you know the why you have a plan for the how without ever having done the how before if that makes any sense. It also helps trouble shoot problems that come up when just knowing the how doesn't prepare you for when things don't go as they should or usually do.


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