# Ball drive vs old time work ethic



## Steve Strom

On a closed thread Carmen said this:



> ball drive has little to do with anything .
> 
> it is the modern way to engage and motivate, lure and bribe
> it says nothing about the instinct about an intrinsic , self rewarding drive
> and that does include obedience , see all the threads about genetic obedience
> 
> tracking dogs were tested by their desire to track


So what motivates a dog to track what WE want it to track? How does it become useful and reliable?


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## gsdsar

Wait, maybe I am being obtuse, but how are you using a ball to teach a dog to track. 

I have seen food used. But never a ball. Well sometimes at the end as a final reward. But normally food.


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## carmspack

I am fully aware that a dog MUST demonstrate strong ball drive as this is part of the testing and used for motivation.
I have made sure that the dogs do have this.

Actually the earliest Czech dogs that were imported were totally flat on ball play - it was just not part of their experience. So in order to maintain a market all of a sudden dogs were coming in where you could see that there had been pressure put on , only to be relieved once the dog had the ball. Power on , on , on, dog grabs ball, power off . The dog has now learned how to help himself get out of a bad situation.

I have made sure that natural instinctive tracking is part of my dogs genetic package.


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## Steve Strom

I'm looking for something more general then that, but I've buried balls on a footstep track for one of my dogs. 7 or 8 of them, he'd indicate on it, let him have it for a minute, then restart.


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## carmspack

I don't use food on a track .

Master tracks right from the start . This also requires the dog to have good social skills and good bonding .


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## gsdsar

carmspack said:


> I don't use food on a track .
> 
> Master tracks right from the start . This also requires the dog to have good social skills and good bonding .



Can you expand on this a bit more? How? What age do you start? Who is the dog tracking? Do they find them at the end? Is there a reward at the end? How long are the first tracks? On leash? Scent discriminating from the start? 

Just curious. Never heard of someone doing this. So would love some input.


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## carmspack

all the time -- put in a lot of dogs for RCMP - doing 2 and 3 mile tracks at 6 - 7 months 

the same fire in the belly to hunt out is necessary for any of the detection dogs 

*Carmspack Blast - new title* 
Carmspack Blast trained and handled by Sue Coutts , also owner of Carmspack Trust UDTX (urban track excellent) , has earned a new title.

He is now Blast who has his Urban Track title now also has added the TDX title to his achievements.

the conditions could not have been worse ---- here is Sue's account of things .

We had some record rainfall yesterday and overnight, with our roads covered in water across them, and raining this morning still.
Winds were supposed to be bad again today, but never got too much before our tracks were over, luckily.
Blast was no. 2 and that field meant the very long walk out to start, which is an issue for us as he’s straining to get there and choking, and my arm’s almost out of its socket!

We had two ditches, a dirt/gravel road crossing, some ruts where I almost fell
There were 8 legs, seemed really, really long, but showed as only 905m. 
he did it very quickly, I had to run a few times.-

-- areas with standing water 


here is what a TDX track might look like Birch-Bark Hill: TDX "Test" Training Track for Blast

you can go back through these blogs that Sue posted.

Trust Urban Tracking Dog Excellent 
Blast (just turned 3 at the time) Urban Tracking Dog Excellent
Kira - prepared for life in detection
Spook TDX (Kilo) daughter

Blast's brother Badger http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/485257-how-i-spent-my-summer.html


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## onyx'girl

Carmen, the post above isn't explaining your method, but then I do understand not wanting to give out any information about how you introduce master tracks from the beginning on an open forum, as it can be misinterpreted.


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## Saphire

Gus started tracking at I believe 4 months of age. I did this with a trainer and master tracks. The early tracks were with the trainer handling and I would lay the track by walking or running and hide, the reward being me.
That evolved to any person hiding, some strangers, some he knew and again the reward was to find them, he needed nothing more. There is no bait or balls used. When he finds the person he goes crazy, that IS his reward.


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## onyx'girl

:thumbup:
so exciting for the dog with that type search/tracking, I know my dogs would much rather track as you do vs the footstep obedience sport tracks, a ball isn't as exciting as finding the actual source of the scent


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## Steve Strom

I'm not thinking so narrowly as footstep tracking. Your dog found you hiding behind a tree, and you praised it. Is that reliable enough to be trusted when there's a 3yr old missing?


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> I don't use food on a track .
> 
> Master tracks right from the start . This also requires the dog to have good social skills and good bonding .


My dog worships me. Is he going to hunt for you Carmen? Or is he going to choose something else half way through? What exactly do you mean by Master Track? I've never seen that term.


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## David Taggart

Lucy is a DDR line, Czech dogs are of the same line. DDR/Czech originally were bred to work in the Army and Police, Lucy's both parents were Police Sniffer dogs working in Vienna airport. She was ball crazy from the very first moment she saw one, she simply cannot live without toys. If she's not playing one, carrying one in her mouth, or searching for one - she is whining and asking me to let her off leash to find one, because she is ready to do ANYTHING to get one. That is genetic, this quality is in majority DDR/Czech dogs.
First of all - work with only one ball, which you should keep free from any scent. Whipe it with vinegar and water solution after a day of training and leave to dry in open air. "Chuckit" medium size balls - it what I use, they have the least of rubber smell.
You train your dog to find the ball in association with a smell. Hide in the bushes the ball and somewhere close to it - a cloth soaked, say, in sunflour oil, or use a drop of some essentual oil. When you come with your dog to the spot the next day - have another piece of cloth with the same scent in a glass jar with you. Let your dog to sniff it and ask to find it. Help to find first few times. Unleash and throw the ball immediately when found. Work with diffrent scents, but don't forget to keep the ball clear from any. That is how I train to start the track. When you see that your dog is searching and finding well, make a short trail. You simply drag the cloth 25-30 metres on a thread before placing it in some spot with the ball. Ask your friend to help you, borrow his shoes for a day, and do the same. This task would be more difficult for your dog, because simple chemicals are not so sophisticated as amino acids. If you have many friends you will have many pairs of shoes to train. Make trails longer with time, and hide the objects in various locations. One day invite your friend for your training, give him the ball the day prior to your meeting. Let your dog find him and your friend throw the ball when found. All depends on you, if you are social person - you can use strangers, children, anyone, just borrowing some object and asking your dog to find the person, though with friends you can play searching longer distances.
You can also train your dog to bark at the person. He/she shouldn't give the ball away immediately, but hold it with both hands at the back. Only your dog has barked - your friend should throw it immediately. But that could be trained separately later.


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## onyx'girl

FOLLOWING GHOSTS - DEVELOPING THE TRACKING RELATIONSHIP - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com


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## MadLab

You can learn something new every day at least if you don't know much. AS in me

Master tracking, sounds cool

Does it have any other name? as I googled it and didn't get any responses.

Any one got any links or book rederence

Steve put this 

Birch-Bark Hill: TDX "Test" Training Track for Blast

with this



> I did this with a trainer and master tracks. The early tracks were with the trainer handling and I would lay the track by walking or running and hide, the reward being me.
> That evolved to any person hiding, some strangers, some he knew and again the reward was to find them, he needed nothing more. There is no bait or balls used. When he finds the person he goes crazy, that IS his reward.


And I think you get the picture, and I get my black text back.


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## Steve Strom

Have you read it Jane? It say's it isn't a how to book. What did it cover?


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## gsdsar

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not thinking so narrowly as footstep tracking. Your dog found you hiding behind a tree, and you praised it. Is that reliable enough to be trusted when there's a 3yr old missing?



If your talking SAR, then in some cases yes. For some dogs, the track is self rewarding. 

Other than IPO, I have not trained for tracking. I have trained for airscent. Yes a toy was generally used as the reward. But it's a bit more complicated. "Ball" and "play" are two very different things. A good DAR dog needs "play" and in that I mean, their desire for the interaction outweighs their desire for the toy. All of my SAR dogs would ignore a toy in front of them for the chance to interact with the victim. The reward is the interaction. Not the ball. It's subtle but a huge difference.


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## Steve Strom

Hey Madlab, did you read the part where he found his glove and he likes to shred them? That's "His thing" A little drive satisfaction for an object maybe?


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## onyx'girl

Steve Strom said:


> Have you read it Jane? It say's it isn't a how to book. What did it cover?


I haven't read it, should order it.
A couple of my clubs members have spent time with John, and picked his brain some. I am hoping we can get John to our club for a seminar. 
This isn't IPO tracking, so there would be some conflict in teaching the dogs to search with his methods if we are doing IPO style obedience tracking. Johns experiences and knowledge is worth a day or weekend seminar, we should utilize any extra information we can gleen, if he's willing to share.


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## Saphire

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not thinking so narrowly as footstep tracking. Your dog found you hiding behind a tree, and you praised it. Is that reliable enough to be trusted when there's a 3yr old missing?


Early tracks were simple and relatively short. They became long and quite difficult, over streams and around ponds, heavy brush etc. All with the same success rate.

My master tracks evolved to hiding throughout a large amusement park. No grass or soil...all concrete and pavement. Difficult tracking of which he has never failed. He is allowed to air scent and problem solve.
For me it's amazing to watch him, it's natural.


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## Steve Strom

gsdsar said:


> If your talking SAR, then in some cases yes. For some dogs, the track is self rewarding.
> 
> Other than IPO, I have not trained for tracking. I have trained for airscent. Yes a toy was generally used as the reward. But it's a bit more complicated. "Ball" and "play" are two very different things. A good DAR dog needs "play" and in that I mean, their desire for the interaction outweighs their desire for the toy. All of my SAR dogs would ignore a toy in front of them for the chance to interact with the victim. The reward is the interaction. Not the ball. It's subtle but a huge difference.


You still used a toy though, for the training. You don't think it was something along the lines of their prey drive being directed to that object that got them there? Without that couldn't their desire for play take whatever direction they decided at any time?


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## Saphire

gsdsar said:


> All of my SAR dogs would ignore a toy in front of them for the chance to interact with the victim. The reward is the interaction. Not the ball. It's subtle but a huge difference.


This!


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## MadLab

> Hey Madlab, did you read the part where he found his glove and he likes to shred them? That's "His thing" A little drive satisfaction for an object maybe?


No, and I don't doubt it can be backed up with a reward other than finding someone. All dogs can't be expected to use the same system anyways.

It would seem unnatural to try to actually separate sections of drive altogether. A dogs nose is to find food in my opinion first and foremost, live or dead, but is used to find mates, pack, information about rivals etc etc. 

Still a pretty interesting perspective on tracking.


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## MadLab

> You don't think it was something along the lines of their prey drive being directed to that object that got them there?


Could it be that instead the prey drive got redirected into ball play? Think of a pup developing. Does it want food or play first? I would think food.

It's really just a heat seeker of a noise looking for it's mammy and milk


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## Blitzkrieg1

I was commenting on dog selection for LE. People questioned my assertion that a propesctive LE dog required ball/object drive. 
This was pretty astonishing to say the least..lol.


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## Steve Strom

MadLab said:


> Could it be that instead the prey drive got redirected into ball play? Think of a pup developing. Does it want food or play first? I would think food.
> 
> It's really just a heat seeker of a noise looking for it's mammy and milk


Did you see that herding article linked on the closed thread? It mentions looking for prey drive directed towards biting very specific parts of a sheep being useful. I'm thinking along the lines of that same prey drive and the desire to hunt being directed to something specific like a ball or tug giving you something tangible and usable.


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## Vandal

> I was commenting on dog selection for LE. People questioned my assertion that a propesctive LE dog required ball/object drive.
> This was pretty astonishing to say the least..lol.





> A dog that wont chase and hunt for a ball or other prey objects will not pass any LE testing.


Because your comment was not accurate. Depends on the dept and exactly what they are looking for. Perhaps a small dept with a limited budget wants a dual purpose dog but some of the larger depts are doing things a different way. If they are looking for a detection or evidence dog, they are looking for hunt drive, not just ball drive. Patrol dogs are different.


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## Vandal

> Did you see that herding article linked on the closed thread? It mentions looking for prey drive directed towards biting very specific parts of a sheep being useful.


Some of the old herding lines have very strong hunt drive and are/were excellent detection dogs.
Edited to add: along with very strong work ethic.


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## MadLab

> Did you see that herding article linked on the closed thread? It mentions looking for prey drive directed towards biting very specific parts of a sheep being useful. I'm thinking along the lines of that same prey drive and the desire to hunt being directed to something specific like a ball or tug giving you something tangible and usable.


Totally, I was getting side tracked.

And I don't know. lol

I live in a rural area now with a lot of sheep and dogs, and have been watching them work plenty. They want to kill those sheep but are held back on constant obedience to the handler. They bite them on the fur to move them and spin them around to go the right direction. 

Not sure what it has to do with tracking 
But I reckon tracking is an element of hunting and finding food, but I would see this master tracking as being different as the dog does get trained finding people.

My friend in Poland had an X military gsd as a pet and it used to go swimming and into the woods with his friends when they were children. He said they would always play tricks on the dog and hide on the way home and the dog would realize one of them are missing and go and find them and drag them back to the group. This was ment to be a serious dog, half pet and half on duty.


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> Some of the old herding lines have very strong hunt drive and are/were excellent detection dogs.
> Edited to add: along with very strong work ethic.


Yeah, I would think so. Do you channel that into something specific like a ball or some toy to take advantage of those qualities or just count on hide and seek? What makes it usable to us? When is it something trained to a point you would depend on it?


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## Vandal

If you are training detection you teach the dog using an object but what Carmen and Saphire are talking about, tracking people, is certainly a time tested way of teaching a dog to track/search. It's surprising to me that people might think a ball would be more rewarding than finding the person. It's genetic. It is IN the dog and the training brings it out and channels/reinforces it into the chosen activity.
If you were trying to simply train any old dog to do that then yes, I would expect it might not be reliable. 



> Originally Posted by *gsdsar*
> _All of my SAR dogs would ignore a toy in front of them for the chance to interact with the victim. *The reward is the interaction. Not the ball.* *It's subtle but a huge difference.*_


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## Steve Strom

But its not simply the ball though, right Anne? Its the prey drive and hunt drive, the ball is the object used to satisfy those drives. Isn't it the prey drive that's strong enough to get a dog working through problems and when things get tough? Just to find a person may be a little rewarding to a point for some dogs, but is that strong enough to get them past the different competing scents or anything else they may cross?


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## onyx'girl

in regards to 'tracking' my dog tracks to track, the ball at the end of it isn't really a reward to him, just a signal that the track is finished. The articles are an annoyance to him, disturbs his tracking focus. All dogs are different, of course, and my own dog isn't one that enjoys the IPO type structured track but enjoys working out a problem or being challenged. That motivates him far more than food drops, or a ball.


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## David Taggart

Whatever a human or adog does - the action must result in satisfaction. And, satisfaction should be - what your dog expects. Thus, dogs live by expectations. That is the basics for training anything, tracking as well. He expects tug game - he, the dog, the ultimate hunting machine, would hunt for tug game. He expects to find his ball - he would search for ball. Ball game in this respect is of no difference to combat with the decoy/helper. My friend from another country is a handler for castrated spaniel, who, according to his words (I have no power to check it) has to work a little bit longer in order to add to the amount of narcotics he found, so the black market price would reach 1000 000 Euro. The reward - salami, bacon or smoked ham. Dogs are programmed to hunt. But, I doubt very much, that they are programmed with the object to hunt. Though, the object must represent something natural. Dogs are not only hunters, they are scavengers, they rob other predators, they hunt and eat fallen fruit, they hunt competitors to protect their hunting grounds only to kill them, and they hunt their potential mate. Lucy is hunting balls, my previous dog Ella was hunting big men. Some dogs don't need any reward, the reward is the handler's verbal praise with refind.


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## Steve Strom

onyx'girl said:


> in regards to 'tracking' my dog tracks to track, the ball at the end of it isn't really a reward to him, just a signal that the track is finished. The articles are an annoyance to him, disturbs his tracking focus. All dogs are different, of course, and my own dog isn't one that enjoys the IPO type structured track but enjoys working out a problem or being challenged. That motivates him far more than food drops, or a ball.


Yeah, I know. The act of it can be rewarding in itself. But that's still in the narrow structure of a trained behavior , footstep tracking. What do you think he'd do if you took away those footsteps? Would he work to track what you wanted him to, or would the rabbit over there change his mind?


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## DaniFani

Steve Strom said:


> But its not simply the ball though, right Anne? Its the prey drive and hunt drive, the ball is the object used to satisfy those drives. Isn't it the prey drive that's strong enough to get a dog working through problems and when things get tough? *Just to find a person may be a little rewarding to a point for some dogs, but is that strong enough to get them past the different competing scents or anything else they may cross?*


I know this was directed at Anne, but thought I'd chime in because I have a little experience with LE (man) tracking. I've trained with lots of departments over the last year and have trained quite a bit with one in particular. They all do things a little differently, but yes....for a LOT of LE K9's that I've seen, the reward of finding the person is enough and I've seen it be "enough" on some pretty tough, pretty long runs. However, one of the K9's that's "new" with the department I see now is tracking for the person, has to alert, bad guy comes out, dog platz's, and reward is given FROM the "bad guy." He's not certified yet, he's working towards it now. That's just one department though, another city over trains for bark and hold and bite. 

For the record, I've seen a lot of "endings" to hunts. Sometimes a reward of a toy/tug with the person found, sometimes a bark and hold, sometimes a bark and hold resulting in a bite. There is such a range, in just the departments I've trained with, in just my area, I imagine across the country the array is even larger.


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## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> Gus started tracking at I believe 4 months of age. I did this with a trainer and master tracks. The early tracks were with the trainer handling and I would lay the track by walking or running and hide, the reward being me.
> That evolved to any person hiding, some strangers, some he knew and again the reward was to find them, he needed nothing more. There is no bait or balls used. When he finds the person he goes crazy, that IS his reward.


Not current now but this is how it was done in Arizona in the 90's. We would go out and hide. Dog would have our scent with a old t-shirt and then when the dog found us and alerted we would give them a oh good dog petting party. They were teaching them to air scent tho.


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## DaniFani

onyx'girl said:


> in regards to 'tracking' my dog tracks to track, the ball at the end of it isn't really a reward to him, just a signal that the track is finished. The articles are an annoyance to him, disturbs his tracking focus. All dogs are different, of course, and my own dog isn't one that enjoys the IPO type structured track but enjoys working out a problem or being challenged. That motivates him far more than food drops, or a ball.


It's so much more fun from the handler's perspective too! I LOVE seeing the LE dogs work. I especially like when they find people hiding up high, I love watching them find scent pools and work out of them and work up a building or tree, searching in the actual air. It's pretty awesome. Even more neat being the "guy" at the end, but my current condition keeps me from being the guy at the end....so I help with obedience for now lol.


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## Steve Strom

But what I'm saying though Dani, all those endings you just said are different then just looking for the person for the sake of looking for the person. Those are all to one degree or another satisfaction of prey drive.

I'm not questioning natural abilities, I'm saying we use tools with their drives to make those abilities dependable and useful to us. Ball, tug, sleeve, food, whatever.


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## onyx'girl

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, I know. The act of it can be rewarding in itself. But that's still in the narrow structure of a trained behavior , footstep tracking. What do you think he'd do if you took away those footsteps? Would he work to track what you wanted him to, or would the rabbit over there change his mind?


He is always aware of his surroundings, a rabbit or a bull coming over to say hi may get his attention of course, but we track with distractions all the time, sandhill crane family trying to attack us, loose dogs or dogs going over our track while we age them. I think when a dog is in tracking mode, the distractions aren't a biggie, though my dog is higher in threshold and very biddable. 
this guy broke out of his pasture and came up on us while we tracked, I moved Karlo over to a bush when we spotted him coming, he explored Karlo and then stood next to us, we slowly walked back to the vehicle...Karlo was just two yrs old and made me proud for his stable temperament and not barking or reacting to him.


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## Vandal

> But what I'm saying though Dani, all those endings you just said are different then just looking for the person for the sake of looking for the person. Those are all to one degree or another satisfaction of prey drive.
> 
> I'm not questioning natural abilities, I'm saying we use tools with their drives to make those abilities dependable and useful to us. Ball, tug, sleeve, food, whatever.


I don't know why I am having such a hard time understanding what you are asking but I am.

We set up scenarios for the dogs we train for SchH to search for the helper. What is interesting is that the activity of searching raises the fight drive and prey drive is part of that. When they find the helper after a search, you see a distinct difference in the dogs and no, it's not about just a different environment causing that. 
The drives are all connected and we don't just work one at a time, even if we think we are.


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## DaniFani

Steve Strom said:


> But what I'm saying though Dani, all those endings you just said are different then just looking for the person for the sake of looking for the person. Those are all to one degree or another satisfaction of prey drive.
> 
> I'm not questioning natural abilities, I'm saying we use tools with their drives to make those abilities dependable and useful to us. Ball, tug, sleeve, food, whatever.


But it's always a bunch of drives at work, I mean you can tag biddability, pack drive/social drive, hunt drive, prey, defense, fight....and of course SOMETHING at the end is rewarding. Whether it's engaging in a fight, an "atta boy" from the dog's handler, a ball, etc...I believe staying on the track and the "hunt" is keeping the dog engaged, it's fun to "hunt"...sure the reward at the end is part of the puzzle (however that manifests), but I wouldn't say that's the singular thing keeping the dog engaged. Especially on a real life man hunt, I mean those can be LONG. I ran 65 mins with a dog/handler team on a real hunt before, I don't think the hope for a ball at the end is all that kept that dog engaged. However, I'm only a little over a year into this. I understand mechanics and "rules" but am always learning about drives and what's engaged. Although, different handlers/trainers have different training theories, methods, etc...I'm never NOT learning lol.


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## David Taggart

> the fight drive


No such exists. The person advances - the drive to protect switches on, the person moves away, hides - prey drive. There's no strict line between defence and attack, the best defence is attack. The dog would avoid unnecessary conflicts to save his energy and would give up a prey too strong for him.


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## Vandal

Check with Germany they believe it does exist. At least they used to.


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## DaniFani

David Taggart said:


> No such exists. The person advances - the drive to protect switches on, the person moves away, hides - prey drive. There's no strict line between defence and attack, the best defence is attack. The dog would avoid unnecessary conflicts to save his energy and would give up a prey too strong for him.


Lol, thanks David. I disagree. Some dogs love to fight, it's different than defense or prey. The reward itself is to fight and dominate. I guess we'll agree to disagree though.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Vandal said:


> Because your comment was not accurate. Depends on the dept and exactly what they are looking for. Perhaps a small dept with a limited budget wants a dual purpose dog but some of the larger depts are doing things a different way. If they are looking for a detection or evidence dog, they are looking for hunt drive, not just ball drive. Patrol dogs are different.


Lol now your being obtuse. I mentioned hunt drive numerous times. I have tested dogs for this. I have seen dogs tested for it by Depts. Its not a complicated concept and its easy to see.

The fact remains the building block is ball drive (you can replace ball with whatever you prefer tug, pvc, metal). Does the dog pursue the ball, does he want to posess and play with it? Will he search for it? How long?

90+% of what they do is detection. For that most people train it with the ball or tug.


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## Steve Strom

> ball drive has little to do with anything .
> 
> it is the modern way to engage and motivate, lure and bribe
> it says nothing about the instinct about an intrinsic , self rewarding drive
> and that does include obedience , see all the threads about genetic obedience
> 
> tracking dogs were tested by their desire to track


What I originally quoted here is what I'm asking about. What is "ball drive" How is using a ball so different when it comes to working with a dogs drives? How is not just an object to satisfy some drives? Why is it automatically a bribe? Isn't that just poor use of something? Even in some cases praise?

What exactly is a "self rewarding" drive and how can it be useful for a dog we want to find something specific we want found? Not just something the dog may happen to find interesting.

I'm not saying this contentiously. I really don't see how you'd depend on desire to track alone. I don't see how that can be dependable in any way. Its the strong desire you mentioned Anne, that brings up that fight when they find the helper in those scenarios you're talking about. The Strong prey drive and hunt drive leads to that, right? And the satisfying of that at the end that motivates them to get there no matter what, right? If chasing and chewing a ball satisfy's that, is that somehow not as good? Do you see what I mean ?


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## gsdsar

Steve Strom said:


> But what I'm saying though Dani, all those endings you just said are different then just looking for the person for the sake of looking for the person. Those are all to one degree or another satisfaction of prey drive.
> 
> I'm not questioning natural abilities, I'm saying we use tools with their drives to make those abilities dependable and useful to us. Ball, tug, sleeve, food, whatever.



I am not sure I am going to explain this well. But I am going to try. 

It's not about the vehicle for the reward. Ball/tug are irrelevant. It's about the interaction. It's about finding and interacting with the source of scent(a person). 

My dogs have all been easily able to ignore toys and food and cats and other dogs and anything in front of them when working. Those things are irrelevant to them if not in the immediate form of interaction with the source of scent. My food obsessed Lab will run right past a hamburger when working. My GSD would run through a room full of tennis balls, tugs, frisbees if they were engaged with a victim. The toy is irrelevant. 

We break down and them relump all of the drives together again. If we are being honest hunt/prey/fight/food are the sequence of events that allow survival. It's a chain of instinctual behaviors leading to the same thing. A full belly. We pull out certain aspects and breed and train to those specific aspects of the chain of instincts. 

There has to be some form of satiation of the drive for the dog to continue to use the drive. For some dogs, the "hunt" portion of the drive is satisfactorily satiated when the source of scent is located, without the need to bring in the next step. Those dogs have their hunt drive satisfied by interacting with or just getting to the victim. Yes, that interaction may involve a toy, a bite, food. For some, it can just be finding the source of scent. 

I like to tap into multiple drive when working my dogs. But I won't work a dog who must have a toy at the end. While I use them in training to allow interaction, I often don't use them and just have the victim praise and pet. Cause very few people get lost with a Gappay tug on them. Sometimes the victim will use a stick to interact. 

I have seen and worked with dogs that have nice hunt, but if they find a victim and their toys scent is not there they won't engage. That's not a good dog. Because it's not about the toy. It's about the interaction. 

So yes? Does, it's complicated work?


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## Steve Strom

You're using their drives, manipulated to work in a way you can use, right? So to me its not about the ball, there's no interaction drive specifically, but the hunt drive getting satisfied. I don't think they need to find a toy to have that satisfied, maybe that could be something along the lines of figuring out the problem? But is it as strong as prey drive?


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## David Taggart

> dogs love to fight


The fact that they love to fight says only in favour of the fact that they love to win being driven by prey drive. Bullterrier wins over elk. They love to win because they expect to win. In nature wolf goes away with a big piece of flesh, in IPO his reward is a sleeve. But, if the decoy would beat him with a hard stick and leave half dead every time - he would lose any wish to fight forever. The work of the decoy is a pure art, he/she must sense the dog, be precise and not overpowering, yet bring the dog to his limits. Alas, we have turned away from the subject. The change in dogs you have observed during the search - was determined by the fact that the scent of the prey object became stronger, they were ready for the "kill".


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## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> What I originally quoted here is what I'm asking about. What is "ball drive" How is using a ball so different when it comes to working with a dogs drives? How is not just an object to satisfy some drives? Why is it automatically a bribe? Isn't that just poor use of something? Even in some cases praise?


It becomes a bribe when the dog is working because of the reward (ball, tug, praise, food) instead of working to earn a reward. Easiest place to see this is in obedience with the lure present or obvious to the dog being used to create the illusion of obedience. Another example would be a dog who will search for his ball in the weeds if he sees it thrown, but will fizzle out, look to or come back to the handler in a blind search.


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## David Taggart

> It becomes a bribe


A bribe drive. Actually(and seriously) it makes a lot of sense.


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> It becomes a bribe when the dog is working because of the reward (ball, tug, praise, food) instead of working to earn a reward. Easiest place to see this is in obedience with the lure present or obvious to the dog being used to create the illusion of obedience. Another example would be a dog who will search for his ball in the weeds if he sees it thrown, but will fizzle out, look to or come back to the handler in a blind search.


I know Lisa. I was more commenting on the dismissiveness of using a ball in general for training, like no one could possibly understand weaning off of it. If you use a ball, you're bribing.


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## Vandal

OK, I went back and read your original question again. I'll try this. Obedience used to be about a dog's natural willingness to work with the handler. There were dogs who just kind of "knew" what to do. Genetic obedience, like with sheep where with just a little adjustment, they were out there tending large flocks of sheep. They didn't need an electric collar or a ball, they were naturally attracted to the sheep. It was in their genetic code for the lack of a better way to put it. Again, the genetic obedience where it is easy to teach these dogs without all the "bells and whistles" used now.

There are dogs who are simply naturals at tracking as well. They get satisfaction in the work itself. If you ever train one, you will understand it immediately. They love following scent. 

We used to, (some of us still do), bring the dogs out at a year and a half, the bad guy came out and they bit the sleeve full and hard...no puppy bite work or flirt poles required. That protective instinct was hard wired as well and the dogs instinctively knew what to do.

This is something the old Germans always talked about, satisfaction in the work itself, and warned us not to lose it in the GSD. I think this is a concept that not many people understand anymore. The dogs were bred to do this work but so many now train them like they were not born to do it.


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## DaniFani

Vandal said:


> OK, I went back and read your original question again. I'll try this. Obedience used to be about a dog's natural willingness to work with the handler. There were dogs who just kind of "knew" what to do. Genetic obedience, like with sheep where with just a little adjustment, they were out there tending large flocks of sheep. They didn't need an electric collar or a ball, they were naturally attracted to the sheep. It was in their genetic code for the lack of a better way to put it. Again, the genetic obedience where it is easy to teach these dogs without all the "bells and whistles" used now.
> 
> There are dogs who are simply naturals at tracking as well. They get satisfaction in the work itself. If you ever train one, you will understand it immediately. They love following scent.
> 
> *We used to, (some of us still do), bring the dogs out at a year and a half, the bad guy came out and they bit the sleeve full and hard...no puppy bite work or flirt poles required. That protective instinct was hard wired as well and the dogs instinctively knew what to do.*
> 
> This is something the old Germans always talked about, satisfaction in the work itself, and warned us not to lose it in the GSD. I think this is a concept that not many people understand anymore. The dogs were bred to do this work but so many now train them like they were not born to do it.


Is it your belief that most dogs can't be worked like this, or that most people just don't do it or maybe a mix of both? I only ask because I have heard this before (in real life, not just on the forum). I've never gotten into a discussion about it before. What do you think lead to this? The dogs or the training? I guess it's kind of a chicken or the egg question. Curious what your thoughts are though. It's something I've heard enough to wonder about it. I kind of want to try it with my next dog (if it seems possible and he/she seems to fit the bill to be able to train this way).


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## David Taggart

Police train their dogs with balls, SAR trains with balls, IPO and the rest. Balls, balls, balls. Why? Because balls represent the most natural prey. Ball flies high - that is a bird, ball bounces - that is a mouse. The majority of canines mainly feed on birds and small rodents. Wolves eat mice and rabbits every day, and eat larger prey once in two weeks if not months. Their wish to dig the soil (digging drive?) comes exactly from there, and their wish to chew the ball comes from there, because by chewing they kill that small prey quickly. In fact, if you want to know, the game called "football" represents human social hunting, satisfies predatory human instincts. I believe, dogs love playing it no less than we do. Anyone who refuses it in dog training simply makes his job more difficult, especially if his dog could be easily "bribe driven".


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## Vandal

What lead to what? Are you asking what lead people to start using flirt poles? I really don't know why suddenly it's all accelerated in that direction. I've done this for almost 40 years now and yes, of course a German Shepherd dog would know how to protect you. That's what they were known for yet people question that that's even possible anymore. That might lend a clue to how much this is all been turned on its head.


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## Vandal

I think of course, you can still do this. I encourage people to wait all the time. Last year I helped my friend start her dog who she hopes to compete with. She did very well with the father of the dog and she waited until the son was 15 months old before he was allowed to bite. He had seen a couple of helpers and barked at them but she waited until he could be started here. The first session I came with a hard sleeve on, he bit hard and full. Most dogs perform much better in IPO protection when you wait until they are older and all the drives are there and they are mature enough.


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## DaniFani

Just saw your second post. Thanks, that's what I was getting at. Curious why the need to start so early started. That's all.


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## Vandal

My "of course German shepherds would know to protect you" comment comes from what they are known to do but people now, (not you), deny that they will protect you. I hear it all the time about dogs trained in IPO. To me, that is simply absurd, yet I read it all the time. Again, not directed at you, just what this has become. The topic itself is touching on that where people are finding it hard to believe that a German Shepherd would do these things without a ball. They really do and they really did. But now people think it's old wives tales.


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## DaniFani

Vandal said:


> My "of course German shepherds would know to protect you" comment comes from what they are known to do but people now, (not you), deny that they will protect you. I hear it all the time about dogs trained in IPO. To me, that is simply absurd, yet I read it all the time. Again, not directed at you, just what this has become. The topic itself is touching on that where people are finding it hard to believe that a German Shepherd would do these things without a ball. They really do and they really did. But now people think it's old wives tales.


Ah, I understand now.  I think some just have to see dogs that love the hunt, love the fight, love to work FOR and WITH their handler, to realize it's possible, and there. I learn so much about tracking and hunt drive from the LE K9's. Makes me really wish IPO tracking had an overhaul.

About the ball/reward thing....My dog isn't particularly "ball crazy," at first I thought this was a bad thing, he likes the tug and is enthusiastic for it, but he isn't "insane" over it. I thought this was bad until my TD/helper had me start using ME as more of a reward for him. You can see the visible difference in my dog when I give him some excitement, when I smile, touch, pat his head, verbally praise etc...when the reward is just working with ME, and me working with him, if that makes sense. I still use toys, but what really gets him excited is when I'M excited to work too and I give him that. It's kind of like a "yes mom! I love working with you too!!!" lol, not sure if that makes sense, but after my byb dog with NO biddability, no "toy drive," he's teaching me so much. I was recently laughing with a friend how I'm constantly yelled at across the field "Smile at your dog, touch your dog, give your dog SOMETHING he's pushing you for SOMETHING...that turn was perfect and you're a dead fish!" lol poor dog, I'm getting better though!


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## Vandal

> I thought this was bad until my TD/helper had me start using ME as more of a reward for him. You can see the visible difference in my dog when I give him some excitement, when I smile, touch, pat his head, verbally praise etc...when the reward is just working with ME, and me working with him, if that makes sense. I still use toys, but what really gets him excited is when I'M excited to work too and I give him that. It's kind of like a "yes mom! I love working with you too!!!" lol, not sure if that makes sens


It makes perfect sense. That's the way I was taught and I still do it that way. GSDs are bred to work 'with us' and that's what they enjoy the most.


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> OK, I went back and read your original question again. I'll try this. Obedience used to be about a dog's natural willingness to work with the handler. There were dogs who just kind of "knew" what to do. Genetic obedience, like with sheep where with just a little adjustment, they were out there tending large flocks of sheep. They didn't need an electric collar or a ball, they were naturally attracted to the sheep. It was in their genetic code for the lack of a better way to put it. Again, the genetic obedience where it is easy to teach these dogs without all the "bells and whistles" used now.
> 
> There are dogs who are simply naturals at tracking as well. They get satisfaction in the work itself. If you ever train one, you will understand it immediately. They love following scent.
> 
> We used to, (some of us still do), bring the dogs out at a year and a half, the bad guy came out and they bit the sleeve full and hard...no puppy bite work or flirt poles required. That protective instinct was hard wired as well and the dogs instinctively knew what to do.
> 
> This is something the old Germans always talked about, satisfaction in the work itself, and warned us not to lose it in the GSD. I think this is a concept that not many people understand anymore. The dogs were bred to do this work but so many now train them like they were not born to do it.


In herding they have something to directly stimulate their drives, something to focus it on, same in protection, and obedience to us is obedience to us.

In tracking, beyond just footstep tracking, wouldn't it be different in that we don't know exactly what the dog is focused on when he's following scent. I have a hard time believing anyone would depend on just naturally following scent. I think making those natural abilities of real use, really is dependent on the use of some type of object. A tangible object that will be the focus of the dogs drives. Does that make sense?


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## Vandal

Yes, it makes sense to a degree but I am understanding you to say that finding a person does not provide enough satisfaction for the dog. Is it your belief that dogs get more satisfaction interacting with objects than with people?

Added: you just talked about the things the dogs are attracted by in other activities but seem to be saying in tracking that can't be the case. Do you believe this because the person is not in the sight of the dog?


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## mycobraracr

I don't have a lot to add to the conversation, just an observation from my training group. Some of us are anti toy and some of us use toys. One of the handlers who normally used a toy, was told to stop using it for a while. Just work with the dog and make things happen. It took a couple months, but now they look better than ever. No toys, just man and dog working as a team. This in both obedience and protection. Recently I haven't been using a toy with Kimber. I have noticed a difference in her work. I like it. Now I will still use a toy sometimes, but it's not something I rely on every session. I have been told, that by using a toy all the time, you're contently giving the dog an outlet for it's stress. If you contently give the dog an outlet, then it never learns how to properly manage it when no toy is present. Is this true? I don't know.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, that's what I question. Interaction with a person has a certain level of satisfaction, but it doesn't compare to the intensity of the interaction with an object, because that interaction isn't really about the object itself, the object just becomes the focus of a strong prey drive which triggers the hunt drive.

I can see the interaction with a person working with those drives if the object is to bite him when he finds him, and maybe barking AT that person in a way that's kinda challenging him along the lines of some of what you mentioned. But since you don't want that most of the time, it seems to me useful tracking is dependent on an object. Ball, tug, rag, sleeve, something?


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## Steve Strom

mycobraracr said:


> I don't have a lot to add to the conversation, just an observation from my training group. Some of us are anti toy and some of us use toys. One of the handlers who normally used a toy, was told to stop using it for a while. Just work with the dog and make things happen. It took a couple months, but now they look better than ever. No toys, just man and dog working as a team. This in both obedience and protection. Recently I haven't been using a toy with Kimber. I have noticed a difference in her work. I like it. Now I will still use a toy sometimes, but it's not something I rely on every session. I have been told, that by using a toy all the time, you're contently giving the dog an outlet for it's stress. If you contently give the dog an outlet, then it never learns how to properly manage it when no toy is present. Is this true? I don't know.


I don't think in tracking something its the same though. They have to work independently but at the same time, doing something specific that we want. There has to be something to narrow down the focus and it can't be too much from us because then we're interrupting.


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## mycobraracr

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think in tracking something its the same though. They have to work independently but at the same time, doing something specific that we want. There has to be something to narrow down the focus and it can't be too much from us because then we're interrupting.



I understand that. At least in the training/teaching stages. I've only started formal tracking with food so... With Kimber she started nose work with building searches finding a decoy and getting a bite. A pretty strong motivator. Then that transferred to hiding a ball and having her find that. Either way she has something motivating her to do it. I haven't started IPO style tracking with her yet, so we will see what kind of motivation she needs or not.


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## Vandal

Not in my opinion or the opinion of several others who have posted. Have you ever gone out to watch SAR training or the kind of work a few people are talking about? Sometimes seeing it really makes it much more clear. Like what Dani is saying about what she is learning with the PD training.
There is also the praise element and interaction with the handler when the dog finds the victim etc. All quite stimulating for the dog. I am not one to believe a ball offers a dog so much or that interaction doesn't offer enough.


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## shepherdmom

Steve Strom said:


> I can see the interaction with a person working with those drives if the object is to bite him when he finds him, and maybe barking AT that person in a way that's kinda challenging him along the lines of some of what you mentioned. But since you don't want that most of the time, it seems to me useful tracking is dependent on an object. Ball, tug, rag, sleeve, something?


Pardon me for butting in.  I am just curious how you would take this over to "real world" scenarios? When a dog finds a lost person in SAR that person isn't going to have a tug or a ball to play with the dog. What they will be most of the time is happy to see the dog. The dogs are (or were) trained to let people they find pet them and hug on them. Unless something has drastically changed with SAR in the last 20 years I'm not sure how you would get around this issue?


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## Vandal

> There has to be something to narrow down the focus and it can't be too much from us because then we're interrupting.


Can you maybe offer an example of what you are saying here? Just trying to understand where the disconnect in our ways of viewing this is.


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## Vandal

Saphire talked about hiding and the dog finding her, (the handler), the first few times in the training and then switching to another person. That is a very strong instinct in the dog to try to locate his handler and then switching to another person is just moving on with the training...like we have to do in everything with the dogs..... Gets gradually more difficult as they master the activity.


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## MadLab

I think people forget how pups act when they are used to there grown up dogs. I know I do sometimes.

But take a young dog and separate it from the owner and it is crazy to get back to them. More so than if it looses a ball or whatever. To me ball drive is a learned behavior over time while the pack bond or will to be with pack is a natural instinct. Harnessing that will to be with owner/handler/pack and developing it is I guess what this search for human minus prey/ball/food reward is about. 

Any time I'm out in nature I hide from my dogs and climb a tree and watch them first run around a bit puzzled and frantic and then they Just look for my scent and go and find me. It is so natural.


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## SuperG

"Good early handling, training and socialization will help develop desirable traits in the dog, but those traits have to be there. Ball drive is a good example, since it forms the foundation for so many types of work. Some dogs aren't interested in chasing a ball. If the dog does enjoy ball games, a good trainer can build that up and bring it out to it's highest possible level, but the drive itself is innate. One cannot install a drive."...from your good friends at germanshepherdguide.com....wouldn't be surprised if that was written by someone in this thread.....along with this excerpt ..." A high prey dog will chase balls forever and love it. When you throw a ball, does your dog tear after it with great enthusiasm? Good! If it rolls out of sight, does he continue to hunt for it relentlessly or does he give up and walk away? Those dogs who will continue to hunt for their beloved tennis balls are showing hunting instincts, which can often be channeled into work, such as SAR."


SuperG


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> Can you maybe offer an example of what you are saying here? Just trying to understand where the disconnect in our ways of viewing this is.


Well, maybe where the disconnect is, I don't believe dogs do much out of love. What I mean is praise has a lot of limits. Its a part of things, but the self interest of survival is a whole lot stronger and prey drive comes from that, right? It isn't the ball itself. That's just where the stronger drives are channeled. 

Praise at the wrong time and you've just distracted from the task. You've interrupted the dog solving something.


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## Saphire

This has nothing to do with love or praise. The only way I can make sense and describe is "genetic obedience" and or the ingrained want that is self rewarding in itself.


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## Vandal

Well, German shepherds are not wolves they are domesticated dogs. They have been bred for decades to possess certain drives and instincts so that man can use the dog for multiple purposes. I think using the term love clouds or discounts what I, and others are trying to say. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that you can use a ball. I'm disagreeing with the idea that it's the only thing you can use. I also agree with what others said about how the ball is used.
Every dog is a little different and they respond better to different ways of training that uses different drives in the dog. The idea that you only use one of those is not something I can accept and people who have actually trained that way, have talked about their dogs and the success they have had using them.


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## gsdsar

But the desire to work for a handler is pack oriented. Dogs are pack animals. That drive can be equally as useful and strong as anything else. That "pack" drive or as some call "genetic obedience" is what allows wild canids to hunt in packs, each having a different job, to protect the pack, and to help raise the young. That social connection is a very powerful thing.


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> Well, German shepherds are not wolves they are domesticated dogs. They have been bred for decades to possess certain drives and instincts so that man can use the dog for multiple purposes. I think using the term love clouds or discounts what I, and others are trying to say. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that you can use a ball. I'm disagreeing with the idea that it's the only thing you can use. I also agree with what others said about how the ball is used.
> Every dog is a little different and they respond better to different ways of training that uses different drives in the dog. The idea that you only use one of those is not something I can accept and people who have actually trained that way, have talked about their dogs and the success they have had using them.


Discounting wasn't my intention or trying to prove anything right or wrong. I find tracking so different from general obedience. That balance of the dogs natural abilities and what we would find dependable enough to stake someones life on it. Its a little more interesting then debating just a ball.


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## Vandal

Okay, it appears you are disagreeing with the people who have actually taught the dogs in the ways you are disputing and it seems that they have not changed your mind in the slightest. Nor have I . 
I agree with what they are saying. So, I guess there's not much more for me to add to the discussion. 
Good luck.


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## Steve Strom

Ok, thanks.


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## carmspack

Vandal said:


> OK, I went back and read your original question again. I'll try this. Obedience used to be about a dog's natural willingness to work with the handler. There were dogs who just kind of "knew" what to do. Genetic obedience, like with sheep where with just a little adjustment, they were out there tending large flocks of sheep. They didn't need an electric collar or a ball, they were naturally attracted to the sheep. It was in their genetic code for the lack of a better way to put it. Again, the genetic obedience where it is easy to teach these dogs without all the "bells and whistles" used now.
> 
> There are dogs who are simply naturals at tracking as well. They get satisfaction in the work itself. If you ever train one, you will understand it immediately. They love following scent.
> 
> We used to, (some of us still do), bring the dogs out at a year and a half, the bad guy came out and they bit the sleeve full and hard...no puppy bite work or flirt poles required. That protective instinct was hard wired as well and the dogs instinctively knew what to do.
> 
> This is something the old Germans always talked about, satisfaction in the work itself, and warned us not to lose it in the GSD. I think this is a concept that not many people understand anymore. The dogs were bred to do this work but so many now train them like they were not born to do it.


 Yes to the above


Ball drive is necessary for law enforcement because that is the first thing they evaluate as an indicator of having some tool by which to connect to the dog and to motivate a dog . 
It has nothing to do with the ability or desire to track , (or anything else) .


Illustration -- a few years back , I mean maybe 20 or so , I had a young male whiz of a dog. One of my regular depts. called looking for a dog . I told them what I had was too young . Still they wanted to come see . Okay so I arranged to set up a very very complicated (showing off!) track , which would be this dogs first one . 
Not a straight track . That doesn't show enough . I meant to impress .
This one looked like it was a Celtic knot. I mean circles, oblique angles , criss crossing over the track , entry points and exit points. A dark piece of landscape fabric cut to fit the bottom of a pot happened to be in my pocket . This was placed at the end just to indicate an end. The dog had absolutely no connection to it . 
A map of the track was drawn as I was doing it with key landmark features noted . 

So then we drive away , go do some necessary daily errands, come back 4 hours later in time to meet the evaluator . Approaching the field we are hit with the heavy scent of freshly mown grass . Oh no. That was the track. Evaluator arrives . The track will be filmed , no editing , no redos . Whether good , bad or nothing what will be will be. Point out the order of the track and the design , hand him the map of the track . Get dog . Straight out of crate , no priming , walk to the group of people. Tell everyone to be quiet , just watch the dog.
Take hand off collar and send the do to find . The dog flies into tracking mode . Finds the beginning , which he has to by himself -all work is off lead and independent , no one following . Zips through it , even runs the concentric circles and finds the sharp linear exit , keeps going with same energy to the end . At the end he stops . He hasn't been trained to indicate , but he knows that this is the end because the scent ends . He did the pattern correctly without short cuts , moving from diminished scent to increased or fresher scent .

The dog never looked to me for support , even though one of the loops circled back close to where we were standing . Did not come for a visit.

So then we move on to some "protection/prey" testing . The dog had never seen a sleeve . I don't work with one and I don't start my dogs, as in conditioning them, to a sleeve . Full grip , brave, focused . Yay!
It was one of those wrap him up we'll take him moments.
Now to the details. I have yet to x ray the dog , a pre-purchase necessity . Tell him I'll schedule an appointment as soon as I can . Over the moon with what he has just seen , which by the way was filmed on one of the old VHS tapes using a camera as big as a suitcase (well almost) . Then he whips out a kong to play with the dog . The dog looks at the trajectory . That's it . Try again. Nope , nada. No ball play to save the dog's life.

We can't take him. 

He has just done an aged track more complicated then he would ever encounter in real life , over freshly mown grass , in the heat of summer -- . But he doesn't play ball. The question was "but how do we motivate him" ???

I select my dogs for the genuine drive that only needs to be harnessed . The dog has it . It doesn't have to be manipulated .

I am responding very late -- we had some big storm last night , including power off and some flooding to take care of first.

remember though that the title of the thread is ball drive vs old time WORK ETHIC -- which goes far beyond just tracking


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## carmspack

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I was commenting on dog selection for LE. People questioned my assertion that a propesctive LE dog required ball/object drive.
> This was pretty astonishing to say the least..lol.


yes, because that is how they evaluate dogs and that is how they train and motivate .

however there are thousands of pet dogs that have great ball drive that couldn't track -- or look at the sport dogs - tons of ball drive on many of them , yet that doesn't make them fit to be a law enforcement dog , or a detection dog , or a tracking dog.


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## carmspack

MadLab said "
I live in a rural area now with a lot of sheep and dogs, and have been watching them work plenty. They want to kill those sheep but are held back on constant obedience to the handler. They bite them on the fur to move them and spin them around to go the right direction. "

That is not good GSD herding . A dog like that would be eliminated from duties asap.
It is very important to allow the sheep peaceful restful pasture. Stressed sheep make for tough meat and poor wool . Damaged sheep are costly.

You see this wild glaze eyed prey chase behaviour in herding instinct tests -- but the GSD does not herd the same way as a border collie . I don't like it because it is not correct for the breed .

Steve Strom said "Did you see that herding article linked on the closed thread? It mentions looking for prey drive directed towards biting very specific parts of a sheep being useful"

This is not making prey on the sheep. It shows that the dog has an interest in exerting its will and dominating the sheep . It shows confidence and a natural attraction to sheep, a possession of them .


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## carmspack

onyx I think you were asking about how I test , there are no secrets , I've shown it so many times , I've been recorded showing genetic obedience (guide dog institution, ) somewhere Cathy should have a bit of film that she took of Caden at about 10 weeks of age doing a very difficult search , and she can tell you about it. Also on this forum and the forum I belonged to before I have written at extensively about genetic obedience and instinctive tracking . John Paver of vom Schafer See supported the concepts with his own experience . People don't believe it . Not then , not now. 

How do I test the dogs. I test for what I want to see. I observe without affecting outcome . You can begin to see character right in the whelping pen with pups and priority rights.
The pups are tested long before they can have a ball drive .
You pick them up , you walk to an unfamiliar area . You put them down and you outrun them and go into hiding and then you shut up - no movement , no encouragement . You see what they do. Do they sit and squawk. Do they try to find home . Do they act indifferent and go off on a exploration , or do they try to problem solve and try to connect with you again. 
One winter I had a Fire Marshall come out (again a repeat customer) to test a young female - we had glare ice , a weight supporting crust of it . To show off this one female I had in mind we went outdoors (freezing) put pup on ground , took little scab of icy crust , maybe an inch or a bit more in size , and rolled it on the icy surface . Dog asked to find it . And off she goes like a busy bee going to flowers . There was nothing to see . The white piece completely disappeared , white on white . She brought it back , no problem. And yes the return to handler with the "object" was natural . The dog was at most 6 or 7 weeks of age. Three weeks later she went off with the Fire Marshall to start training . This all went amazing . Here was a dog that would leap to the top of a garden shed to check things out. Then when this officer had a stint on an off-shore oil rig he asked if I would board the dog for the 18 month to 2 year period -- I advised that by the he was ready the dog would be well along the way -- better to start with a new candidate . He took the advice and the dog called Sable went down to Washington DC to be a bomb dog. 
A few years later another dog went down to Washington DC , a dog named Buffy , to take care of the Presidential buildings .
They were related , as are most of my dogs in some variation or another.


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## Steve Strom

And it say's :



> Manfred developed this method of testing his puppies to help him accurately select dogs with strong natural prey drive appropriate for sheep herding, self-confidence and the willingness to accept the shepherd as pack leader.





> One should keep in mind that Manfred’s standard of selecting only those dogs that meet his testing criteria 100% is extremely high and probably not realistic for the average hobbyist. One must also keep in mind that a working shepherd must be far more demanding of his dog than the hobby herder. While the hobby herder might demand that the dog concentrate on its work for relatively short periods of time, a working shepherd must know that his dog will maintain its concentration for a whole day, every day. According to Manfred this intense concentration is possible only in a dog with the highest instinct/drive/attraction to the sheep


So in relation to tracking, isn't that intense prey drive the reason Blast will track through all manner of difficulties, to find his prey, the glove? That concentration isn't where reliability comes from? I guess I'm comparing the dog just doing it for praise etc. to the hobby herder in some ways.


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## mycobraracr

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I was commenting on dog selection for LE. People questioned my assertion that a propesctive LE dog required ball/object drive.
> This was pretty astonishing to say the least..lol.


The reason I questioned it, is because I've never seen a dept or officer really care about ball drive at all. It comes down to the dogs ability, not a ball. This is all first hand experience. So maybe in your area they do, but not everywhere. So making statements saying that a dog without ball drive is useless in LE is not accurate.


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## DaniFani

Steve Strom said:


> Well, maybe where the disconnect is, *I don't believe dogs do much out of love.* What I mean is praise has a lot of limits. Its a part of things, but the self interest of survival is a whole lot stronger and prey drive comes from that, right? It isn't the ball itself. That's just where the stronger drives are channeled.
> 
> Praise at the wrong time and you've just distracted from the task. You've interrupted the dog solving something.


To the part in bold: Just in case this was what you took away from what I was saying, I HATE referring to dog's doing something out of "love" or "sadness" or that they get "embarrassed" etc...I hate using human personality terms to describe any animal behavior (that and my animal behavior/biology prof's would slay me). 

I meant more a discussion on the biological drives that domesticated dog's use to complete tasks. My dog has a drive to please me....maybe that's because I feed him, I'm the source for everything, so it makes sense he'd want to please me (I also believe he's genetically designed to be this way). I don't want you to think I think he does anything out of "love" for me. I guess some could call that love, and many like to debate this. Anyway, just thought I'd put that out there.


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## Steve Strom

DaniFani said:


> To the part in bold: Just in case this was what you took away from what I was saying, I HATE referring to dog's doing something out of "love" or "sadness" or that they get "embarrassed" etc...I hate using human personality terms to describe any animal behavior (that and my animal behavior/biology prof's would slay me).
> 
> I meant more a discussion on the biological drives that domesticated dog's use to complete tasks. My dog has a drive to please me....maybe that's because I feed him, I'm the source for everything, so it makes sense he'd want to please me (I also believe he's genetically designed to be this way). I don't want you to think I think he does anything out of "love" for me. I guess some could call that love, and many like to debate this. Anyway, just thought I'd put that out there.


No, I should have just deleted that. The next sentence is a better choice of words. Work Ethic probably wasn't a real accurate term for what I meant either.


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## KathrynApril

Have read every single comment on this thread and the last. I have no knowledge to share, but love reading everyones view points. Very interesting story Carmen about the puppy being evaluated. Though in reading how it was with the track it seemed like the answer would of been the dog doesn't need any motivation as it already comes with it. Kind of curious now as to how my uncle's "police" dog was trained. He was a rottweiler though, but I don't recall my uncle using any ball/toys/tugs to motivate him. Grant it I only saw him in action once on a drug sniffing demo and then just normal in house interaction.


Edited portion is in quotes.


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## carmspack

no Steve . Not at all . I breed my dogs for balance . No prey monkeys . No extremes in body or in drives . 

Blast was doing Sch H 2 track lengths , meticulous , detail oriented , foot to foot at 4 months of age . 

"I guess I'm comparing the dog just doing it for praise etc. to the hobby herder in some ways. "

eww -- no -- there is nothing hobby about herders using genetic obedience , which Manfred was looking for , and there is nothing hobby about putting dogs out into lives at stake , avalanche rescue , SAR , or bomb detection.

not getting that it is bred in the bone, intrinsic to the dog , is what frustrated Vandal .


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## DaniFani

mycobraracr said:


> The reason I questioned it, is because I've never seen a dept or officer really care about ball drive at all. It comes down to the dogs ability, not a ball. This is all first hand experience. So maybe in your area they do, but not everywhere. So making statements saying that a dog without ball drive is useless in LE is not accurate.


All the LE dogs I have trained with use some form of toy as a connection (during obedience usually), it's always a toy on a rope so that it's interactive, the dog doesn't just get the toy and forget the handler. I've always seen toy drive used for obedience purposes, as Carmen said, a way of doing something "fun" with the handler. 

I've never seen one without ANY "toy drive," different levels? Sure, but it's always there. Not always used specifically for tracking, but used in some form of connection with the handler. If that makes sense. It's another "tool." I've definitely seen dogs that really need that toy, and others that have more of this "genetic obedience" we talk about, that get more excited when the handler releases them and they just get praise and to jump all over their handler lol.

Do you see LE teams in your area that don't use toys at all? A lot of the handlers I see on their first dog really need SOME kind of tool to help them connect, it seems to take a bit to be able to "give something" to the dog, using only the handler. I know I still have times where I struggle being the "Reward." There are handlers that use toys a lot and others that I don't see using a toy much at all, but thinking on it I don't know that I've ever worked with one that didn't use anything at all, ever, other than themselves. Not saying it's not possible, but wondering if you have seen that.

Hope that all makes sense, I tend to ramble as different thoughts come to me lol.


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## DaniFani

"What I mean is praise has a lot of limits. Its a part of things, but the self interest of survival is a whole lot stronger and prey drive comes from that, right?"

So, going off this then (this is a really interesting topic to me), if we go by the three things animals are driven to in nature, reproduction, fight/flight, and prey/food, for survival. I think most of the drives fit into these categories (including pack drive...I personally think pack drive fits into reproduction AND fight/flight, survival is usually better with multiples). 

You could argue, that in domesticated animals, WE are the provider of sustenance. Therefore, in domestication, praise could actually play a huge role with the right genetics. Praise could be tied to social drive which could be tied to food (survival), and also fight/flight (survival as a team, better than alone). 

The dog doesn't have a drive to hunt and KILL for food, domestication has made this unnecessary (for most breeds lol). Since we are the provider of food, shelter, safety, etc... pleasing US would/should be a pretty high priority to a domesticated animal. Instead of that drive to kill for food, maybe that drive has been turned more towards pleasing us. 

So I could say, yes...praise should be very important to a "good" dog. Of course there are dog's that couldn't care less about their owners, food or not, shelter or not...and there are also dog's that will and have chased balls off roofs and broken their legs. I would say genetics have been designed in an unfavorable way, in these cases, that "prey/ball/toy drive" is over ruling survival (probably shouldn't jump off a cliff to chase a ball). 

I hope the GSD always has the genetics to have/seek "praise" or "genetic obedience" or "handler sensitivity" or whatever buzz word encompasses what I'm trying to say lol. I want my dog to WANT to work with me, not so sure I'm a fan of really "handler hard" dogs that really want to work for the toy, the treat, the fight. I think there needs to be a balance of a "want" for all those things. Although I'm pretty partial now to a dog that wants to work for/with me a little more than the other reasons lol.


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> no Steve . Not at all . I breed my dogs for balance . No prey monkeys . No extremes in body or in drives .
> 
> Blast was doing Sch H 2 track lengths , meticulous , detail oriented , foot to foot at 4 months of age .
> 
> "I guess I'm comparing the dog just doing it for praise etc. to the hobby herder in some ways. "
> 
> eww -- no -- there is nothing hobby about herders using genetic obedience , which Manfred was looking for , and there is nothing hobby about putting dogs out into lives at stake , avalanche rescue , SAR , or bomb detection.
> 
> not getting that it is bred in the bone, intrinsic to the dog , is what frustrated Vandal .


I'm not saying its not bred in the dog, intrinsic in the dog. I'm talking about how we use those qualities, the abilities their genetics give them. How we know when it can be depended on. You say ball drive, I say prey drive. The ball is the tool to direct it in a way we want.

Police give bites at the end of a search, SAR play tug, indication on a bomb or drugs triggers the appearance of a prey item like the dog just chased it into the open. None of them are doing it just for the sake of some interaction. They're working with the dogs drives. Praise and building trust, all those things are a part of any training, but for the dog to maintain something usable through difficulties that are a part of it, those pieces are limited.


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## carmspack

actually I didn't say either one of these " You say ball drive, I say prey drive. "
and if the dog has "it" then this is not necessary "The ball is the tool to direct it in a way we want."

" None of them are doing it just for the sake of some interaction. They're working with the dogs drives. Praise and building trust, all those things are a part of any training, but for the dog to maintain something usable through difficulties that are a part of it, those pieces are limited."

You breed for and you select dogs that do the work because they can find great reward by doing the work.
You can't be there to keep motivating them. Herding requires work in absence of the handler . The have a sense of responsibility (possession) . They won't be tempted to go play ball or leave their charge .

" but for the dog to maintain something usable through difficulties that are a part of it, those pieces are limited"

but that's the whole point ---- the most reliable dogs are those that get reward from doing the job -- doing the job , not a reward for doing a job.


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## carmspack

what was their motivation?








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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> actually I didn't say either one of these " You say ball drive, I say prey drive. "
> and if the dog has "it" then this is not necessary "The ball is the tool to direct it in a way we want."
> 
> " None of them are doing it just for the sake of some interaction. They're working with the dogs drives. Praise and building trust, all those things are a part of any training, but for the dog to maintain something usable through difficulties that are a part of it, those pieces are limited."
> 
> You breed for and you select dogs that do the work because they can find great reward by doing the work.
> You can't be there to keep motivating them. Herding requires work in absence of the handler . The have a sense of responsibility (possession) . They won't be tempted to go play ball or leave their charge .
> 
> " but for the dog to maintain something usable through difficulties that are a part of it, those pieces are limited"
> 
> but that's the whole point ---- the most reliable dogs are those that get reward from doing the job -- doing the job , not a reward for doing a job.


But you're telling me I have to focus on the word reward. I never said reward. You did say ball drive was necessary for law enforcement to evaluate the dogs. But that's not the point. 

Maybe we're saying the same thing to a certain extent? I'm saying the work has to in some way have a conclusion that satisfies the drives the dog is working in. Possession isn't the same, the sheep are always there. 

The painting? Intrinsic enamel drive?


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## carmspack

what then is old time work ethic?


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## Vandal

> I'm saying the work has to in some way have a conclusion that satisfies the drives the dog is working in. Possession isn't the same, the sheep are always there.


She is saying the dog gets satisfaction while in the act of working, not at the end of it. 

You say the sheep are there, the scent the dog is following is there. Just because it isn't visual doesn't mean it's not there. The dog gets satisfaction in working that scent. I've watched dogs doing that and you can see it in their reactions to the changes in scent due to terrain, wind etc. They look for the scent in order to follow it.
Sure there is an end that may provide more satisfaction but the point remains, the dogs get drive satisfaction while doing it. There is no rule that the end is where it is found.
The first time I read "satisfaction in the work itself", I couldn't grasp it right away. I had to sit and think about it and then I saw dogs who fit what they were saying.

Like I said earlier, hard for people to believe now because they work the dogs like they have far less genetic talent nowadays. You have these very talented dogs and everyone wants to do remedial training with them.


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## Steve Strom

> She is saying the dog gets satisfaction while in the act of working, not at the end of it.


Ok. I'm not saying they aren't. But I think it needs a clear conclusion, to insure it stays reliable to what we are looking for. Otherwise the satisfaction could quickly become tracking something other then what we want. 

Reward at the end is defining it too narrow. Prey and hunt aren't going to be maintained without a clear, successful ending most of the time, and by something a lot more satisfying then there he is, good boy.


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> what then is old time work ethic?


I was in a hurry to leave work. That was the best I could come up with.


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## cbaird

The best example I've come up with for those that haven't seen it or haven't recognized it or think you have to have an extreme or very high ball driven dog for SAR etc is the hound. If you have ever watched a hound (beagle, bloodhound, etc) hunt & trail they have this kind of drive & extremely few have ball drive. It is the hunting itself that is satisfying in & of itself even if they aren't successful at finding something at the end! It is genetically hardwired in the dog.
As others have said, in gsd you have to select for it in breeding to ensure you keep it as it is not so hardwired into gsd as it is the hounds.
Candace


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## Sabis mom

You all are talking about this drive and that drive, breeding for a talent.

I owned a dog who lived to work, not for treats or toys but for the simple joy of doing the job. She didn't care if that job was babysitting bunnies, detection work, tracking or protection. Left on her own she herded all the chickens back to their pen, supervised the neighborhood kids and quivered with delight at the site of my patrol jacket. 
She didn't play fetch, was ambivalent about a tug and saw treats as her right not a reward. Over the top praise embarrassed her. 
She was bred to work, it was as much a part of her as her beautiful eyes. She would work sick, hurt, tired or hungry. She resented being rested or pampered. Her reward was the job, and the job was whatever I was asking or expecting at that moment. The need to work was apparent at 3 or 4 months of age.
I had other dogs, I worked with other dogs. I can guarantee you all that if I was leery about what I might be heading into, or if the stakes were really high, the dog I was leashing up wasn't the ball crazy, obedient, trained to death one, it was the one who defied me, challenged me, defended me and breathed to be my _partner._


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## Blitzkrieg1

mycobraracr said:


> The reason I questioned it, is because I've never seen a dept or officer really care about ball drive at all. It comes down to the dogs ability, not a ball. This is all first hand experience. So maybe in your area they do, but not everywhere. So making statements saying that a dog without ball drive is useless in LE is not accurate.


 
Not just my area. How are they training detection work?
Please dont say they do it because they instrinsically have the drive for the work..


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## carmspack

blitzkrieg , that is exactly the point. The ball drive is necessary because that is the reward system , how they form a behaviour.

Problem is you can have ball crazy dogs that don't have hunt and search drive .

Why not breed and select dogs for the job that do. And then have ball play / interaction as a reward.

One of the problems with some detection dogs is that they are so ball crazy that they give false positives -- short cutting for the reward .

I won't present a dog that does not have strong ball drive . When I select for a dog as a candidate I look for a dog that has that natural search behaviour . The ball as a reward comes in later.


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## Vandal

> Please dont say they do it because they instrinsically have the drive for the work..


intrinsic: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing 

I think people who have not actually placed dogs for this think it is all about a dog who will chase a ball or is simply "crazy" for one. They are looking for hunt drive and that is genetic, so is in the nature of the dog, saying it isn't is just ridiculous.

I've seen people who think just because a dog will do back flips for a ball they must be good for the job. They might even hunt for it but as Carmen pointed out, there is more to it than that and the people with experience know that. 

I placed a Flat Coated Retriever that people who think that way would have just passed right over. Yes, he had a ton of hunt drive but he wasn't frantic and manic for the ball. Very methodical and accurate and never quit. My friend who owned a very large police dog school down here watched him one time searching and wanted him that second.
He was placing dogs on large depts. where the dogs were used in demanding situations and constantly. That dog was hugely successful in his career with a PD.


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## Graychamp

There have been a lot of replies and ideas flying around so I'll just add my two cents - I'm no expert.

I feel as if so many people read too far into things (I get wanting to understand the psychology of it all)

*LE* "ball drive": Dog loves to chase ball? Yes - That will be a dog that will learn fast. No - It will take too long to teach this dog.

*Why*: At the end of the day does it really matter why the dog found the person? Do I care if the dog found the person because it knew the game of "find it and I get the ball" or because it has been genetically ingrained into them through years of selective breading? Not really..I just care that the dog does what it's supposed to and through training I see the reliability of the dog.

*Natural drive*: Genetic. I saw this first hand with puppy runaways and my GSD Emma. I just didn't understand how in the world she knew what to do..she just..did. That's genetic. It wasn't because she was finding me either...we did it with strangers as well. Her demeanor changes at the end of the search because she knows it's over. She just knows the game. Usually she won't even accept a food reward she greets the person and them becomes her aloof self and does whatever. (She will go for a ball though - she loves that thing).

A dog with high drive can be trained easier and faster.

A dog with low drive can still be trained to do the same things as the high drive dog - just expect it to take years of constant and consistent work. In our group we have a small mutt that will can smell blood and match it to the person in a group. I've seen it done. This dog isn't high drive. It doesn't go for a ball. It was systematically taught to use its natural abilities in order to get something it wants. 

In retrospect...it's a lot like luck. "well he just gets lucky all the time - it's not skill" ...if you get lucky so frequent...why do you need skill?

If my dog listens and obeys only because it know's/thinks it will get something it wants...why do I care whether it's real obedience or not as long as I can ensure it's consistent? I don't. I'm not splitting hairs..I want the dog to do what I want when I want it - end of story.

That being said..sorry, no dog will be 100% consistent regardless of how awesome a trainer your are - perfect its genetics are - or time you spend...but all these factor in to just how reliable they can be.

I love the fact that Emma has it in her genes to perform certain work. Every dog is different. It's going to take you as a handler adjusting and coming up with solutions that are best fit for your dog and the situation at hand...work in such a way that gives you both the optimal rate of success regardless of what that may be!


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## Steve Strom

gsdsar said:


> If your talking SAR, then in some cases yes. For some dogs, the track is self rewarding.
> 
> Other than IPO, I have not trained for tracking. I have trained for airscent. Yes a toy was generally used as the reward. But it's a bit more complicated. "Ball" and "play" are two very different things. A good DAR dog needs "play" and in that I mean, their desire for the interaction outweighs their desire for the toy. All of my SAR dogs would ignore a toy in front of them for the chance to interact with the victim. The reward is the interaction. Not the ball. It's subtle but a huge difference.


I kinda got sidetracked on what I meant by all this and the reason I posted it as a training thread. What I was asking about wasn't a question of temperament, drives, or the ball itself. The specifics of how you can determine when the dog has correctly tracked something from beginning to completion. The hide and seek aspect of what some of the posts have been about leave me wondering, what if the dog was actually following a completely unrelated scent and stumbled into the person, the excitement at that could still be the same.

Thats why I said I'm not trying to have any change of mind or prove anything right or wrong, just thinking that there must be some tangible goals or something along the way, some way of measuring or evaluating exactly what the dog did between A&Z. Thats what I find complicated.

Now that flat coated retrievers have entered the conversation, I doubt there could be any interest at all in tracking. Have fun.


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## counter

Not sure how on topic this is, as I don't have time to read everyone's long paragraphs of (probably amazing, detailed and knowledgeable) replies. BUT:

When I was doing K9 SAR in Oregon, through experience I learned that the LE SAR dogs were also trained in other areas. They were like a jack of all trades, and expected to do bomb/drug detection, patrol, SAR, etc. work. Well, the overall opinion by the experienced SAR trainers was that the LE SAR dogs were average joes at everything. No experts. We would go on searches with them, and the Police dogs were going in the wrong directions and never found the subjects. We had volunteer unit SAR dogs that did SAR work and nothing else, so they became "experts" and would actually find people and save lives. I felt bad for LE dogs, at least when it came to SAR. It was almost as if they were a complete joke who could not be counted on to help us out, and they were only there to comfort the family as a show of force in saving their loved one. The families don't see what's really going on behind the scenes in the forests and mountains. They stayed at base camp hoping for details/information. 

But that was my overall impression of LE K9s.

I do recognize (and tell my family) that it is better to be average at a lot (if not most) of things, than an expert at 1 thing and below average or clueless at everything else. I guess if you're a genius and can get rich off only knowing 1 thing, awesome for you and I'd be jealous.

But just my input and possibly off topic.


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## shepherdmom

Graychamp said:


> There have been a lot of replies and ideas flying around so I'll just add my two cents - I'm no expert.
> 
> I feel as if so many people read too far into things (I get wanting to understand the psychology of it all)
> 
> *LE* "ball drive": Dog loves to chase ball? Yes - That will be a dog that will learn fast. No - It will take too long to teach this dog.
> 
> *Why*: At the end of the day does it really matter why the dog found the person? Do I care if the dog found the person because it knew the game of "find it and I get the ball" or because it has been genetically ingrained into them through years of selective breading? Not really..I just care that the dog does what it's supposed to and through training I see the reliability of the dog.


I'm no expert either but I've got to say I disagree. I've had a dog that came from a long line of SAR and Cadaver work. This dog was a natural. We had 10 acres. Anything that was dead on those 10 acres was brought to me. It wasn't trained, it wasn't taught it just came natural as breathing to him. He loved hide and seek with the kids. Again it wasn't trained it was just something he started doing and then we worked with his natural abilities. Before you say all dogs do the find dead things I am going to disagree there. I've had plenty of other dogs this dog took it to completely different levels. 

Today I have a ball dog. She is so focused on that ball she can't think if it is in her sight. I can pick it up and put it on a shelf and she will stare at it for hours till I hand it to her again. Could she be trained to search using that ball? Probably with the right handler. Would it ever be the same as the natural ability and joy in hunting down dead things. No! Not the same at all and she flat out wouldn't be as good if her motivation is the ball not the actual search for the dead things. 

So what I'm trying to say here probably badly....is that ball drive can never replace IMO that natural genetic underlying trait you need. It just makes a nutso dog as far as I'm concerned. 

If I was a breeder, (especially a working dog one) which I am not and never will be, I would look for the genetic trait that I wanted to encourage as well as health and temperament and that would be what I was breeding for. Looks and ball drive would be something to consider but it wouldn't be a priority.


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## counter

carmspack said:


>


 That's a nice picture. I wonder where you found it! Ha.


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## carmspack

agree with you Anne. In my area the ball drive has to be there . Even though when we took out Stark and Agro , both certified and dual , one working in the US one in Canada , the very first thing - straight out of the car , at a meet place that was unannounced (we had to follow to location) was a 1/2 mile , aged , stranger track. Both dogs were pin point accurate with impressive speed.
One was 8 months , the other maybe 6 weeks older.

the saying - teacher gets what teacher wants. That is what they want - that is what they get . But I would not present a dog that did not have the drive or desire , intrinsically - because that is your no-fail , no fool . They aren't begging or waiting for ball play reward , although it is nice . Bonus !

since this topic is about ball drive and work ethic I think I will take it out of the realm of just tracking and expand it to other areas of work , including ..... "protection" helper (helper?) work . 
Dogs can look real good going in for the catch , grabbing that sleeve , running the circle or back to "home-base" ---NOT engaging the decoy , not challenging the decoy. 

Disappearing fight drive is the result . Selection for prey/play makes for a flashy easy to work dog for sport . Real work? mm don't know . Don't think so . 

Same can be said when it comes to obedience. Whether wiener pieces in the mouth that are spat out , ball under chin, ball in a special vest with a spring release , ball in pocket - you get the point , I hope. 
Can you have genetic obedience . Most certainly.

Can you have strong fight drive AND hunt search AND genuine desire to work , be attentive and quickly responsive to the handler , all in one dog . 

YES

We had them . They also happened to share herding genetics -- thinking Enno Beilstein V Enno vom Beilstein
Favourite of mine B (and repeats) litter Lierberg (Bernd , Bodo , Gin )VA3 Bernd vom Lierberg

Uwe, Uran Kirschental V Uwe vom Kirschental
A friend of mine who certainly appreciated hard , resilient dogs owned Uran . He said of him that the dog was naturally hard, naturally everything. He also owned the last of his sons Tarbes Knufken Tarbes vom Haus Knüfken who I used as a stud , his last breeding . Same thing -- good natural aggression, genetic obedience . 

They were long lived dogs .

They are nice to work because they are attentive to the handler . 
Try doing obedience or anything requiring YOUR control if there is conflict with the decoy teasing the dog with a ball. See what happens . 
The dogs and the lines I mentioned would not have been bribed . Working in a totally different drive , which already gave them ample reward because they had / have a genuine satisfaction and need to work for and with , be exclusive to the handler.

more on that feature , next post .......

There are dogs that had a bias toward strong natural aggression -- Gildo Korbelbach was one - rebites .

Gento Larwin !!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_6di7b3EE NOT a play prey dog. Very pushy -- looking to push the decoy to give him a reason to dominate , aggress . He intimidated his owners . I provided a dog when PD dogs kept washing out in a hard to police city -- sent someone to hand deliver this dog so that he could get to see Gento and report back to me .
Yeah , tough dog -- not at all like the sport dogs today. 
Handler tough .


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## Graychamp

Steve Strom said:


> The hide and seek aspect of what some of the posts have been about leave me wondering, what if the dog was actually following a completely unrelated scent and stumbled into the person, the excitement at that could still be the same.


Doesn't matter. Imprinting correctly on a specific scent followed by the dog finding someone/something is all you need. Maybe the dog finds the person because of the smell of a treat. Maybe it's perfume. Who knows..but with training and changing your training each time your dog (hopefully) ends up understanding they need to find the smell they smelled when you said seek (or whatever your word is). It'll click with the dog eventually because they'll realize there's only one smell they can count on every time.




shepherdmom said:


> I'm no expert either but I've got to say I disagree. I've had a dog that came from a long line of SAR and Cadaver work. This dog was a natural. We had 10 acres. Anything that was dead on those 10 acres was brought to me. It wasn't trained, it wasn't taught it just came natural as breathing to him. He loved hide and seek with the kids. Again it wasn't trained it was just something he started doing and then we worked with his natural abilities. Before you say all dogs do the find dead things I am going to disagree there. I've had plenty of other dogs this dog took it to completely different levels.


I understand how it comes naturally for some dogs. I'm living it with Emma. I'm not sure on what you disagree on though as I'm not saying anything that disagrees with you. I'm not saying all dogs find dead things. I'm saying all dogs can be _taught_ to find dead things. 




shepherdmom said:


> Today I have a ball dog. She is so focused on that ball she can't think if it is in her sight. I can pick it up and put it on a shelf and she will stare at it for hours till I hand it to her again. Could she be trained to search using that ball? Probably with the right handler. Would it ever be the same as the natural ability and joy in hunting down dead things. No! Not the same at all and she flat out wouldn't be as good if her motivation is the ball not the actual search for the dead things.


Again, I agree...with shades of gray. The dog could probably EASILY be trained to do almost anything with the ball given the training was imposed properly. Would it ever be the same as the natural ability? Nope. That wasn't my point though. My point was that you can take something the dog cares for to make a dog do something it doesn't care/has little interest for. It won't be as simple or probably even as reliable as the dog who has the natural drive to do so but with time and hard work it can completely be a suitable SAR dog or any other type of working dog. I have seen it with my two eyes..dogs without the drive to find dead stuff become systematically trained to do so...and they even became state certified. 




shepherdmom said:


> So what I'm trying to say here probably badly....is that ball drive can never replace IMO that natural genetic underlying trait you need. It just makes a nutso dog as far as I'm concerned.


Once again, I agree. It can't and won't replace the genetic drives. However, I do believe a dog that has good ball drive is a good sign of its possible genetic drive especially if you check out the dog's pedigree and see it has working lines. But sometimes...a dog just likes to go after a ball and it doesn't mean anything more than that. I think it's easy to tell the difference once you begin a dog in some line of work.




shepherdmom said:


> If I was a breeder, (especially a working dog one) which I am not and never will be, I would look for the genetic trait that I wanted to encourage as well as health and temperament and that would be what I was breeding for. Looks and ball drive would be something to consider but it wouldn't be a priority.


Any breeder worth their weight in gold does this. I honestly think it would be almost silly to make ball drive a priority. Again like I was saying, I think often times when you have a dog with high ball drive you have a dog with other desirable genetics which makes the dog a good prospect for many types of work.


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## carmspack

"I just care that the dog does what it's supposed to and through training"

the end user may not care --- the breeder should care because you can't transfer training and conditioning to the next generation . 

that is why we are loosing what we had , harder to find 

also if it is not deeply bred into the bone (intrinsic) there will come a point where stress and pressure break the dogs drive to continue .
what else do you have in your bag of tricks then?

do you get a dog that gives false positives just to get the reward


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## Graychamp

carmspack said:


> "I just care that the dog does what it's supposed to and through training"
> the end user may not care --- the breeder should care because you can't transfer training and conditioning to the next generation .


This is a good point. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The breeder _should_ care but we have very bad ratio of professional breeders to backyard breeders. As you said though...do I care? Nope. Not unless I'm looking into breeding.



carmspack said:


> also if it is not deeply bred into the bone (intrinsic) there will come a point where stress and pressure break the dogs drive to continue .
> what else do you have in your bag of tricks then?


That depends on the dog. A dog who has great drive can still have different stressors/breaking points. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect dogs and us ourselves are imperfect trainers. You take what you have and you train as much and hard as you can and when you find something that makes your dog hit its breaking point you focus on it. It's going to be different for every dog. My bag of tricks? I reevaluate the situation..I pay attention to my dog...I learn..I adjust..and I find where my dog is likely to fail and I continue working that until the dog is likely to succeed. Isn't that how you handle any failure?



carmspack said:


> do you get a dog that gives false positives just to get the reward


I've seen this happen. Dog gives a false positive - don't give the dog a treat. The dog eventually understands it doesn't get a treat just because it signals but only because it signals in presence of a particular scent


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## carmspack

"I've seen this happen. Dog gives a false positive - don't give the dog a treat. The dog eventually understands it doesn't get a treat just because it signals but only because it signals in presence of a particular scent "

You only know for certain if it is a training exercise . Going into search work for real you are working without knowing. A false positive , involving law enforcement , whether directly or indirectly can impact upon a persons life. 

"That depends on the dog. A dog who has great drive can still have different stressors/breaking points. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect dogs and us ourselves are imperfect trainers. You take what you have and you train as much and hard as you can and when you find something that makes your dog hit its breaking point you focus on it. It's going to be different for every dog. My bag of tricks? I reevaluate the situation..I pay attention to my dog...I learn..I adjust..and I find where my dog is likely to fail and I continue working that until the dog is likely to succeed. Isn't that how you handle any failure?"

unfortunately a luxury in training or sport or hobby -- I don't want my bomb dog at a major airport of government offices or arenas with 30,000 people making errors or getting fatigued -- or being the unit or company that will be sued into oblivion by failures to perform effectively , accurately


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## Graychamp

carmspack said:


> You only know for certain if it is a training exercise . Going into search work for real you are working without knowing. A false positive , involving law enforcement , whether directly or indirectly can impact upon a persons life.


You're always working without knowing. Even people who know something inside and out get things wrong. We're talking about a dog. They'll still make mistakes too but you do whatever you can to prevent it. LE? Yeah, they should take as many precautions as they can when it comes to stuff like bombs. SAR? We're a volunteer group. Same ignorance of something like a pregnant woman trying to sue because someone performed CPR and killed the baby...uh...they'd both been dead had no one done anything. I'd rather have a dog that's got little drive to search for me but wants to because of a treat than no dog to search for me in the event I'm lost.



carmspack said:


> "That depends on the dog. A dog who has great drive can still have different stressors/breaking points. We live in an imperfect world with imperfect dogs and us ourselves are imperfect trainers. You take what you have and you train as much and hard as you can and when you find something that makes your dog hit its breaking point you focus on it. It's going to be different for every dog. My bag of tricks? I reevaluate the situation..I pay attention to my dog...I learn..I adjust..and I find where my dog is likely to fail and I continue working that until the dog is likely to succeed. Isn't that how you handle any failure?"
> 
> unfortunately a luxury in training or sport or hobby -- I don't want my bomb dog at a major airport of government offices or arenas with 30,000 people making errors or getting fatigued -- or being the unit or company that will be sued into oblivion by failures to perform effectively , accurately


I don't want it to either but the problem about life is it's not fair and mistakes happen. We live in the real world where we have dogs with real problems. Not all of us, not all of LEA, not all breeders can have these "perfect dogs". We must make the best with what we have...and what we have can still be very suitable for the job despite its imperfections. Also, as a group we never say "yo, cops there's a dead body here"...no..we have multiple dogs (certified) check the spot. If they all indicate we will let the authorities know we have reason to believe something is going on/has gone on in that particular area and then we leave the rest to them.


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## carmspack

there are things for which there is no room for error.

yearly recertification is required - performance records, logged training with results , keep falling short - and you are GONE . end of story .


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## Graychamp

carmspack said:


> there are things for which there is no room for error.
> 
> yearly recertification is required - performance records, logged training with results , keep falling short - and you are GONE . end of story .


Touche as these things do their best at preventing messups. Doesn't take a genetically perfect dog to pass a yearly certification though - especially SAR. Maybe bomb sniffing but I don't know much about that stuff.


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## Hineni7

I've only read halfway through the 2nd page (70 some odd posts) so this may have already been answered... But to Steve's question about a track being self rewarding enough to trust, I would say emphatically (for certain dogs) YES. 

I know from SAR group i train with, these dogs LOVE their job... The scent... Areli is a tracking /trailing dog, often she will be worked a long mile or more track (No food FST type training, just scent, praise and a little food reward at end of track IF she wants it - which isn't all the time). I will then work my area search dog.. After this, and perhaps even before the tracks HRD is worked... Anyhow, I will let Areli out of the car and 9x out of 10, she will immediately start running the track that my area search dog just did.. The person is gone, the scent remains... She will usually run the actual track (not air scent) laid to where the person was hiding/stopped/was found.. She will sniff all around and come back to me with the largest smile in her face, proud that she could follow the track she wasn't allowed to do with me.. If scent wasn't self rewarding, she would be off to play with her brother, or a toy or sniff a squirrel etc.. 

She isn't the only dog I've had that has been this way - although she has taken to this extreme earlier then the others (she is 13mos old and began in March of this year SAR training). She is forever begging to train and never fails to be excited and focused on her track... Just my experience


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## mycobraracr

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Not just my area. How are they training detection work?
> Please dont say they do it because they instrinsically have the drive for the work..



Ok, I won't say it . I do believe a lot of them get satisfaction out of the work. How do they train detection? Well, that depends on the dog. There are many methods out there. Just like everything else. What *I* don't agree with, is in multiple threads now, you make it sound like the dogs have to be OCD for a ball to make it into LE. At least in California, that couldn't be any further from the truth. I'm not saying they never use balls, tugs, kongs and whatever else the dog may enjoy, but that's not the answer to everything. I've never seen them test for ball drive. Honestly, I don't recall ever seeing an officer/sheriff carry a ball. I've seen the occasional tug during training, but that's about it.


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## GatorDog

carmspack said:


> agree with you Anne. In my area the ball drive has to be there . Even though when we took out Stark and Agro , both certified and dual , one working in the US one in Canada , the very first thing - straight out of the car , at a meet place that was unannounced (we had to follow to location) was a 1/2 mile , aged , stranger track. Both dogs were pin point accurate with impressive speed.
> One was 8 months , the other maybe 6 weeks older.
> 
> the saying - teacher gets what teacher wants. That is what they want - that is what they get . But I would not present a dog that did not have the drive or desire , intrinsically - because that is your no-fail , no fool . They aren't begging or waiting for ball play reward , although it is nice . Bonus !
> 
> since this topic is about ball drive and work ethic I think I will take it out of the realm of just tracking and expand it to other areas of work , including ..... "protection" helper (helper?) work .
> Dogs can look real good going in for the catch , grabbing that sleeve , running the circle or back to "home-base" ---NOT engaging the decoy , not challenging the decoy.
> 
> Disappearing fight drive is the result . Selection for prey/play makes for a flashy easy to work dog for sport . Real work? mm don't know . Don't think so .
> 
> Same can be said when it comes to obedience. Whether wiener pieces in the mouth that are spat out , ball under chin, ball in a special vest with a spring release , ball in pocket - you get the point , I hope.
> Can you have genetic obedience . Most certainly.
> 
> Can you have strong fight drive AND hunt search AND genuine desire to work , be attentive and quickly responsive to the handler , all in one dog .
> 
> YES
> 
> We had them . They also happened to share herding genetics -- thinking Enno Beilstein V Enno vom Beilstein
> Favourite of mine B (and repeats) litter Lierberg (Bernd , Bodo , Gin )VA3 Bernd vom Lierberg
> 
> Uwe, Uran Kirschental V Uwe vom Kirschental
> A friend of mine who certainly appreciated hard , resilient dogs owned Uran . He said of him that the dog was naturally hard, naturally everything. He also owned the last of his sons Tarbes Knufken Tarbes vom Haus Knüfken who I used as a stud , his last breeding . Same thing -- good natural aggression, genetic obedience .
> 
> They were long lived dogs .
> 
> They are nice to work because they are attentive to the handler .
> Try doing obedience or anything requiring YOUR control if there is conflict with the decoy teasing the dog with a ball. See what happens .
> The dogs and the lines I mentioned would not have been bribed . Working in a totally different drive , which already gave them ample reward because they had / have a genuine satisfaction and need to work for and with , be exclusive to the handler.
> 
> more on that feature , next post .......
> 
> There are dogs that had a bias toward strong natural aggression -- Gildo Korbelbach was one - rebites .
> 
> Gento Larwin !!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_6di7b3EE NOT a play prey dog. Very pushy -- looking to push the decoy to give him a reason to dominate , aggress . He intimidated his owners . I provided a dog when PD dogs kept washing out in a hard to police city -- sent someone to hand deliver this dog so that he could get to see Gento and report back to me .
> Yeah , tough dog -- not at all like the sport dogs today.
> Handler tough .


I don't understand this concept at all. This Gento dog is displaying behaviors that were shown by my bitch at 8 months old before we clarified the exercises to her. A dog taking dirty rebites does not show me that he's pushy in any sense other than the fact that the training is still unclear and the dog was never taught a clean guarding exercise. This dog hardly had real focus on that helper to begin with..looking back at the handler and running around the decoy after the out, etc. Not saying he's a bad dog in the slightest, but bad training doesn't automatically make a dog appear stronger to me. A dog can still be pushy and trained well enough to know that rebites are not allowable. I can tell you that if the "sport dogs today" were allowed to do whatever the **** they wanted, they'd be dirty rebiting too.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Never said anything about ocd. I said they had to have good ball drive..the more the better. I am sure there are many dogs in LE that have low object drive. There are many dogs in LE that can't bite either and have no business filling any role other then a pet.
There is a reason high object drive high hunt dogs are used by border patrol, SF groups and many other premier LE groups for bomb and drug detection. 

As to the issue of false positives it has nothing to do with prey drive. That like many other things is a training issue. 

If I had to stake my life on a dog finding the bomb I'll take a high prey high hunt dog that doesn't quit searching over a dog trained with food any day.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I did not see anything special in that Gento dog. 
His striking was poor, entries slow, grips so so, guarding lacked focus and intensity. Object guard was very poor and also lacked the intensity and seriousness you should see in the exercise.
Forget the fact that as Alexis mentioned the training was garbage there is nothing in that dogs work that showed him to be anything more then average in any way.

It's funny many of the accusations levelled against ipo dogs on here were represented in that dogs work. 

Now put proper control on him and serious decoy pressure. Then we can really see what he has. I don't think it will be anything special.


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## lhczth

*I removed some posts. Let's keep the discussion away from member's personal dogs, please. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> *I removed some posts. Let's keep the discussion away from member's personal dogs, please.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ADMIN Lisa*


Sorry Admin Lisa. You just don't see Flat Coated Retrievers mentioned, anywhere really. I apologize.


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## lhczth

This was a recent post, Steve. You are fine.


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## Vandal

So Steve, you're saying that breed of dog is extinct? You don't see them anywhere? That was a very good dog that I took out of the animal shelter and was placed on a PD. Yes he was a flat coated retriever. 
Not sure why that seems to stump you so badly. Where you think you can't talk about tracking any longer.


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## Steve Strom

It was just a joke, along the lines of a non-sequitur. Carmen said I irritated you, so I thought I would kid around a little, and lighten it up.


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## Vandal

That may have been her impression and I believe she used the term frustrated but either way, none of it applies. Just didn't have anything else to offer as examples trying to clarify what was being said. Seems to be people believe a dog can be attracted to sheep and to biting a bad guy and to their handler but can't believe what was being said about tracking. ....maybe "attracted to scent" would be a way to put it. Also, I don't think anyone was implying that no training takes place, maybe that's why people aren't accepting the idea. If you have a dog hunting a ball they can still be distracted by critters, other scents etc. Maybe more so.
Anyway, topic seems dead, I'll leave it at that.


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## Lilie

Vandal said:


> If you have a dog hunting a ball they can still be distracted by critters, other scents etc. Maybe more so.
> Anyway, topic seems dead, I'll leave it at that.


Do you think you can have a dog who will follow a track and seek out no other reward but the track itself? Even at the end of the track, when a reward is presented, the dog isn't very interested in the reward?


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> That may have been her impression and I believe she used the term frustrated but either way, none of it applies. Just didn't have anything else to offer as examples trying to clarify what was being said. Seems to be people believe a dog can be attracted to sheep and to biting a bad guy and to their handler but can't believe what was being said about tracking. ....maybe "attracted to scent" would be a way to put it. Also, I don't think anyone was implying that no training takes place, maybe that's why people aren't accepting the idea. If you have a dog hunting a ball they can still be distracted by critters, other scents etc. Maybe more so.
> Anyway, topic seems dead, I'll leave it at that.


Its more like I'm looking for something measurable along the way. Not questioning any of that. Its just something specific to tracking/trailing a long distance over unknown, unpredictable terrain, conditions, etc.

Maybe I'm over thinking something and not wording the question the right way. I can grasp the idea of a dog going through all that for the ending, bite, prey, satisfying the drives he used to get there. Self rewarding throws me off because I have a hard time with the dog doing what he wants always matching what we may want. Is there anything beyond he found it, some indication between start and finish thats measurable to show its all trained and I don't know, verifiable when you have no idea where the actual track is?


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## Vandal

> Even at the end of the track, when a reward is presented, the dog isn't very interested in the reward?


I have worked dogs like that, yes. Even if the reward is of higher value to them in other activities, it was less so in tracking.... they just loved following the track. Yes, there were cross tracks etc, so it wasn't a case of following ANY scent, they were trained to follow one and they loved it from the get go. So, I don't have a problem believing it because I have seen it. 
There are just some dogs who are very talented and that should be the goal of a breeder. To produce dogs with these special kinds of talent, not just leave it up to chance. That makes no sense to me. 
We should want dogs who are easy to train, easy in that we simply reinforce what comes as standard equipment. Not making it where we all have to be amazing trainers. You won't get the same results with a so so dog and a great trainer as you do the other way around. 
Anything I have accomplished was mostly because of who my dog was. Maybe I was smart enough to recognize it and just stayed out of the way.


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## Vandal

> Self rewarding throws me off because I have a hard time with the dog doing what he wants always matching what we may want.


Yes but if tracking is what he wants...problem solved. 
See, that seems really clear to me but like I said earlier, I had a very hard time with it the first time I heard it. Many of the ideas made me just sit and have to think about it and then just go work dogs until I saw it.


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## Lilie

Vandal said:


> I have worked dogs like that, yes. Even if the reward is of higher value to them in other activities, it was less so in tracking.... they just loved following the track. Yes, there were cross tracks etc, so it wasn't a case of following ANY scent, they were trained to follow one and they loved it from the get go. So, I don't have a problem believing it because I have seen it.


Thanks!


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## onyx'girl

my dog will track to track, articles are an annoyance and food drops disturb his tracking. This isn't what I'd consider good for a sport dog type tracking....he knows where the track is, his nose isn't always deep and he takes the corners like he can see them coming. But we don't score high in trials because of the natural way he wants to track. He'd much rather man track than do the boring footstep obedience style. He does best with the complicated tracks, but again if he were scored, he would score lower because he doesn't keep his nose in every footstep and indicates slower than what is required. I won't bang on him for it. especially at this stage of the game.


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## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> Yes but if tracking is what he wants...problem solved.
> See, that seems really clear to me but like I said earlier, I had a very hard time with it the first time I heard it. Many of the ideas made me just sit and have to think about it and then just go work dogs until I saw it.


That's probably why I'm better off not thinking too much about details. For lack of a better term, I could just picture a dog, like lying on a track. Never changing pace, just going on whatever. Thanks.


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## Vandal

I think the handler has to believe in his/her dog. Dogs who "lie" are usually feeling pressure and how you view your dog, for me anyway, really matters.


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## onyx'girl

Vandal said:


> I think the handler has to believe in his/her dog. Dogs who "lie" are usually feeling pressure and how you view your dog, for me anyway, really matters.


I agree, and the term 'trust your dog' has come into play with great results more times than I can count. The nose is amazing, we should remember that.


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## Vandal

Yes but the dog has to be able to trust the handler. If you walk behind your dog waiting for him to fail or "lie" , they usually will. Unintended pressure that just isn't useful.


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## Hineni7

An interesting point Steve brought up, in that if the dog 'loses' the track/trail and doesn't send up a clear negative and continues to 'lie' about the scent then I would definitely say training was missed. But I know my girl will through a clear negative and continue to hunt out the scent she was asked to give, I can cast her again if necessary, but usually, she is already casting herself trying to require the scent. She has worked in bloody hot weather where I wanted to quit and I had to physically hold her down to water her and let her rest. She wanted to be on the scent.. When she found her subject, she was praised, watered, and offered her treat - she took a couple of liver crisps some water then dropped her nose and started sniffing again... She just loves the scent game. For her, it is self rewarding although an incentive is always offered. I tell my subjects that she will tell you how much reward she needs, usually very little compared to what I think she should want for the difficulty of the tracks... But that is what she loves, the challenge... 

My boy is not like that, he needs the praise and rewards. He likes his job, he likes HRD alot more than area search, but my girl LOVES the track.. I trust her (or try to) implicitly, 99.9% of the time of there is a problem it is with me..


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## gsdsar

Vandal said:


> Yes but the dog has to be able to trust the handler. If you walk behind your dog waiting for him to fail or "lie" , they usually will. Unintended pressure that just isn't useful.



True dat!

The first time I tested a dog for HRD, I was nervous, he sensed that, I thought he was in scent. He was not. He gave his trained indication on nothing. After the test, the evaluator told me "you pushed him into that platz, your body language was so intense, I nearly platzed". Huge lesson learned. 

Yes we need to trust our dogs, but you can't ever forget that they are always aware of us as well. It's important to be supportive without leading.


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## Hineni7

"I nearly platzed" Love it!!!


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## Vandal

Along those same lines, I think the thing I say to people the most when I'm helping them track is "let the dog work" . People have a very hard time just standing calmly/quietly and watching their dog work something out. Their energy changes and the dog feels it. Then the handler becomes the attraction or the dog tries to split the attraction to the track with the handler. That's when you get that behavior that people want to call lying. The dog is distracted or starting to worry and loses concentration. If it gets worse with the handler they will offer an obedience behavior because then everything has switched to the handler. If the handler is someone who is harder on their dog they will avoid by moving away, yes sometimes that looks like tracking/lying.

It seems to be something people have to work hard at to learn how to do. It's the case in all three phases and the handler disturbing their dog is the biggest, most common problem I see.


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## shepherdmom

Hineni7 said:


> "I nearly platzed" Love it!!!



Does platzed mean sit ?


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## gsdsar

shepherdmom said:


> Does platzed mean sit ?



It means "down". My dogs trained indication was to lay down at source. 

Being a SAR handler is hard. You do have to trust your dog, but teaching the dog to trust itself is just as hard. 
The woman I got my USAR lab from, she would wear sunglasses and pull out her smart phone while the dog worked. She kept herself doing other things so the dog would not cue off of her. I do the same thing now. I rarely actively direct my dog to an area. I "jig" them. I don't say anything, I just move a few feet in the direction I want them to go. Yes, my dogs are trained to be directable on the pile. But I don't want them relying on me for direction. So I use that only in certain circumstances. I "jig" them to get the unstuck from and area, or to get them into a better wind direction. Then I let them work. They need to trust their own nose and follow through. I am there for support.


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## Hineni7

I agree with Vandal that people tend to not want to let their dog work out a problem. I know in the early 90's when I first started training my trail dog in SAR I didn't trust her and felt I had to lead her (ridiculous I know) if she wasn't dead on all the time. Now, after a long hiatus, I love watching my dog work through a scent pool, or broken chain scent, or figure out a problem. I do find that alot of others are quick to point out that my dog overshot a corner, but usually before the words are stated she has smoothly transitioned over to the track. I guess it is human nature to feel out of control when having to solely trust a dog in an area we don't have the capability to understand like they do. 

Gsdsar - I 'jig' my dog too, although not always intentionally, lol! I have to be so careful I am not unintentionally leading them to a source or subject.. I like to study my dog while they work, so I would have difficulty using a cell phone while they worked, but I like the idea of distracting yourself enough that subtle body language isn't as likely to pass on to the dog...


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## onyx'girl

not SAR but we also let the dog work out a problem....I am not a babbler on the track, though will give praise after that problem solving. If my dog decides he isn't into tracking(only a couple times has he been spaced out) I do give him a such command. 
I laid a track for a fellow club member and it wasn't a hard track though there was a fairly acute corner first....her dog was all over the place and she chose to remove the dog/put the dog up instead of working it out. I felt like ******** because the whole track was wasted. It was dew, and the dew burned off while aging. I would have tracked my own dog, worked him through it, just so that track wasn't wasted. That said, if the dog has had difficulty and then proceeds to do better, ending it on a good note while leaving that last article can also be ok. I want my dog to succeed, but also work through a difficult scenario so learning is achieved.


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## Graychamp

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe I'm over thinking something and not wording the question the right way. I can grasp the idea of a dog going through all that for the ending, bite, prey, satisfying the drives he used to get there. Self rewarding throws me off because I have a hard time with the dog doing what he wants always matching what we may want. Is there anything beyond he found it, some indication between start and finish thats measurable to show its all trained and I don't know, verifiable when you have no idea where the actual track is?


I don't believe there's a reliable method of knowing your dog is truly tracking what it should be tracking aside from putting in the hours of practice followed by real life practice searches and seeing that you can trust your dog. The only other thing I know is you can pick up on your dogs body language throughout the search. It's easier to teach the dog than it is the handler...I know Emma would be much further along if I myself were better...but it's a process.


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## Hineni7

So here is a question... If a medium ball drive dog is rewarded with a ball for finding s/he subject every time, but is still continually successful in its find and whatever track and subject it is put on, wouldn't that answer the question to whether or not the track is rewarding enough? Since a ball isn't the reward the dog would choose naturally if given the option... 

End results should be evidence enough. Just like asking motivations of an individuals action if the end result is what you want, you take it. Can't give proof to motivation unless ulterior or nefarious with a proven outcome of those motives. People work for a paycheck, but maybe not to pat bills or take care of family but for a new atv or TV etc.. Whether or not the dog is tracking/trailing solely the given scent the whole time cannot be proved. However, the end result, especially if used with a GPS to confirm blind track was followed is evidence that the dog was following the scent to its conclusion... 

Not sure if that makes sense or not... Need more coffee, haha


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## Lilie

onyx'girl said:


> I want my dog to succeed, but also work through a difficult scenario so learning is achieved.


Would that also build confidence in the dog, helping to build a better work ethic?


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## Hineni7

I believe so Lillie... I know watching my dogs work through a problem and find success they get all bouncy and excited - I read it as proud of themselves which gives confidence in themselves and me...


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## SuperG

I have read many times and know one military handler of an explosives detection dog that some of these dogs are conditioned to associate the scent of explosives to tennis balls. In spite of the severity of finding explosives, it seems to just be a game for the dog with ball drive. I don't know if the same applies to tracking but the pending reward/ball/toy seems to be the impetus for an explosives detection dog to find the explosives. I have to imagine the process used by the military is one which hopefully yields the fewest misses in finding the target.....


SuperG


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## RunShepherdRun

Vandal said:


> OK, I went back and read your original question again. I'll try this. Obedience used to be about a dog's natural willingness to work with the handler. There were dogs who just kind of "knew" what to do. Genetic obedience, like with sheep where with just a little adjustment, they were out there tending large flocks of sheep. They didn't need an electric collar or a ball, they were naturally attracted to the sheep. It was in their genetic code for the lack of a better way to put it. Again, the genetic obedience where it is easy to teach these dogs without all the "bells and whistles" used now.
> 
> There are dogs who are simply naturals at tracking as well. They get satisfaction in the work itself. If you ever train one, you will understand it immediately. They love following scent.
> 
> We used to, (some of us still do), bring the dogs out at a year and a half, the bad guy came out and they bit the sleeve full and hard...no puppy bite work or flirt poles required. That protective instinct was hard wired as well and the dogs instinctively knew what to do.
> 
> This is something the old Germans always talked about, satisfaction in the work itself, and warned us not to lose it in the GSD. I think this is a concept that not many people understand anymore. The dogs were bred to do this work but so many now train them like they were not born to do it.


This. 

I grew up in Germany in the 70s and trained SchH. The dogs were brought out when deemed mature enough and the dog would meet a good helper who could read the youngster well. The youngster either had it or didn't. And I remember, even back then not all had it. And then there were degrees. My own and a couple other dogs broke new sleeves in as some dogs would only bite broken in sleeves. 
The breeder we knew had a person in the village who raised the pups he retained from his litters for him, a bit like guide dogs are raised now. When they were old enough, they came back to see how they would do.

My last GSD, a senior shelter rescue, was a fantastic GSD. When out hiking with her, I could leave all maps at home. I called her my GPS dog. No matter where we were and how far from where we started, she tracked us back by air scenting. It was a deeply satisfying activity for her. She'd check in with me every once in a while, with a big grin. An intelligent, social dog knows when s/he is being appreciated. And I trusted my dog and let her handle (or nose!) these things.

She was also intelligently protective. Just watching how she used space to move between me and approaching hikers without them even noticing what the dog was doing was pure joy to me. Any vista I'd look at, she had my back. Twice a guy swinging a stick in my direction saw a flash and the old dog went up and clacked her jaws just an inch from his wrist. She knew exactly what she was doing, controlling with the minimum amount of pressure needed to resolve the situation. 

She didn't know what to do with a ball and she didn't play tug. Nada, nix. Food rewards over excited her, so no use. She did in a team the things dogs are good at, and my being aware of it and being in touch with her was the reward.

We are so accustomed to pay these days. But there is also intrinsic reward in doing something and being recognized for it socially.


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## RunShepherdRun

And it's not only about relying on toys or food as rewards.

Haven't we all seen handlers who constantly give collar corrections? Who don't trust that a good dog and a well performing dog is a motivated dog? That avoidance of pain isn't the only motivator out there?

Nothing against a fair correction if a young dog tests who is in charge. But these constant collar 'corrections' have nothing to do with a working relationship between a dog and a human. They will produce a desired behavior, as do external rewards, the latter combined with joy. But again, there is the joy in figuring out tasks, doing them right, and being recognized.


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## carmspack

this sounds like a wonderful dog. Exactly what I am talking about . I am afraid that this kind of dog might be overlooked altogether or ruined in an attempt to make it "sport" material as this dog would fit poorly into someone's rigid need to remain in a pattern and to make that dog shoe horn into a pattern as well.
Intelligence and decision making , independent , responsible behaviour are valued in working roles , whether HGH herding , personal protection, guide , search work . 
I hate seeing dogs minimized to binary responses , yes / no. Micromanaged , controlled , not as a partner where each contributes to an outcome but as some mechanical appliance . 
Dogs are not the fodder for ego fulfillment . 
I would love to know the pedigree of your dog.


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## RunShepherdRun

carmspack said:


> this sounds like a wonderful dog. Exactly what I am talking about . I am afraid that this kind of dog might be overlooked altogether or ruined in an attempt to make it "sport" material as this dog would fit poorly into someone's rigid need to remain in a pattern and to make that dog shoe horn into a pattern as well.
> Intelligence and decision making , independent , responsible behaviour are valued in working roles , whether HGH herding , personal protection, guide , search work .
> I hate seeing dogs minimized to binary responses , yes / no. Micromanaged , controlled , not as a partner where each contributes to an outcome but as some mechanical appliance .
> Dogs are not the fodder for ego fulfillment .
> I would love to know the pedigree of your dog.


You said it better than I could have. Beautiful, that's exactly it.

I see so much hectic in many WL sports dogs, low thresholds, capping issues, all not conducive to a state of mind required for problem solving. Some of it is training, but breeding must play a role. To each their own, but I prefer a dog whose attitude is 'professional': See what the issue is, consult with the boss if there is question and there is time, and do what needs to be done effectively, keep a watchful but calm eye on the outcome, then move on without fuss.

My last GSD with the perfect genetic obedience and working mind had been a stray in WV. Thus I don't know her pedigree, I wish I did. She had old style conformation: 55 lbs (once beefed up, she had been found at an underweight 49 lbs), dry, far less rear angulation than common today, and wolf sable.

She was my foster dog for an all breed rescue at first, and I kept her. She needed a handler who is in charge (by that I don't mean the dominance nonsense) and would not have done well in a non GSD savvy home with people who want a dog who just goes with the flow. If I hadn't kept her, that would have been her fate. But lucky me that I could keep her!

We did a CGC within half a year, and had I known at the time that one can do SchH in the US and went through the whole thing of registering her (as a 'mixed breed' sans pedigree) with a club, she would have had her BH as well. She had some stiffness in her back already, was maybe ten years old, so no protection work for her. And what for, she already had what it takes


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## RunShepherdRun

PS And I am not sure whether the extended OB, the long heeling phases with the dog looking at the handler, are such a good thing for a GSD who is capable of responsibility. It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling that requires the dog to not pay attention to the environment. I don't like this style, and I don't train it. But, as always, to each their own


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## Steve Strom

RunShepherdRun said:


> PS And I am not sure whether the extended OB, the long heeling phases with the dog looking at the handler, are such a good thing for a GSD who is capable of responsibility. It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling that requires the dog to not pay attention to the environment. I don't like this style, and I don't train it. But, as always, to each their own


Hey Run, is this dog paying attention to his environment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmgRkgqfaWw


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## GatorDog

RunShepherdRun said:


> PS And I am not sure whether the extended OB, the long heeling phases with the dog looking at the handler, are such a good thing for a GSD who is capable of responsibility. It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling that requires the dog to not pay attention to the environment. I don't like this style, and I don't train it. But, as always, to each their own


What is this supposed to mean? I have heard this a few times now on this forum. You don't want a dog to heel because you want it to be paying attention to the environment? In what way? What should they have to be looking out for? "I said heel, but its ok if you don't want to because there's a puddle over here and you don't want to walk through it and there's a guy with a clipboard over there and he's _obviously _ such a suspicious character and you certainly need to keep one eye on that group of people casually standing there just in case something terrible happens."

Its an obedience exercise based on focus to the handler and the task at hand. If IPO were about walking the heeling pattern on the field in the manner that I take my dog for a walk around the block, a whole lot more people would be successful now, wouldn't they.


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## carmspack

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by *RunShepherdRun*  
_PS And I am not sure whether the extended OB, the long heeling phases with the dog looking at the handler, are such a good thing for a GSD who is capable of responsibility. It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling that requires the dog to not pay attention to the environment. I don't like this style, and I don't train it. But, as always, to each their own _

What is this supposed to mean? I have heard this a few times now on this forum. You don't want a dog to heel because you want it to be paying attention to the environment? In what way? What should they have to be looking out for? "I said heel, but its ok if you don't want to because there's a puddle over here and you don't want to walk through it and there's a guy with a clipboard over there and he's _obviously _such a suspicious character and you certainly need to keep one eye on that group of people casually standing there just in case something terrible happens"

the extreme handler focus displayed during heeling in sport is an artificial non sustainable over time and distance .

Environment is not the puddle in the road , nor deciding whether or not to execute a task. It looks good in the ring .


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## GatorDog

carmspack said:


> "
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *RunShepherdRun*
> _PS And I am not sure whether the extended OB, the long heeling phases with the dog looking at the handler, are such a good thing for a GSD who is capable of responsibility. It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling that requires the dog to not pay attention to the environment. I don't like this style, and I don't train it. But, as always, to each their own _
> 
> What is this supposed to mean? I have heard this a few times now on this forum. You don't want a dog to heel because you want it to be paying attention to the environment? In what way? What should they have to be looking out for? "I said heel, but its ok if you don't want to because there's a puddle over here and you don't want to walk through it and there's a guy with a clipboard over there and he's _obviously _such a suspicious character and you certainly need to keep one eye on that group of people casually standing there just in case something terrible happens"
> 
> the extreme handler focus displayed during heeling in sport is an artificial non sustainable over time and distance .
> 
> Environment is not the puddle in the road , nor deciding whether or not to execute a task. It looks good in the ring .


Obviously no one in their right mind would ask a dog to heel like that for any extended or unrealistic distance or length of time. But the task at hand is to maintain focus under those distractions in that environment and is set to that standard so that all of the competing dogs can be judged consistently. If someone doesn't want to train the focused heeling, thats fine. But don't be surprised when its marked in the critique and points are taken for it. If you don't care, then thats fine too. Many do care and there is nothing wrong with that. Even the best heeling IPO dogs don't obliviously walk down the street staring at their handlers...


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## Steve Strom

> the extreme handler focus displayed during heeling in sport is an artificial non sustainable over time and distance .
> 
> Environment is not the puddle in the road , nor deciding whether or not to execute a task. It looks good in the ring .


If we set aside extreme for a minute, how much of your opinion on heeling would come down to you just never tried? I think what you see as extreme has to do with the temperament of the dog, so I can understand why you make that point with some of them. 

But when you watch a nice dog maintain that focus and the willing attitude Anne mentioned even though it may have been taught with a ball, how is that a bad thing?


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## GatorDog

Steve Strom said:


> If we set aside extreme for a minute, how much of your opinion on heeling would come down to you just never tried? I think what you see as extreme has to do with the temperament of the dog, so I can understand why you make that point with some of them.
> 
> But when you watch a nice dog maintain that focus and the willing attitude Anne mentioned even though it may have been taught with a ball, how is that a bad thing?



Because on this forum, ball drive or prey drive in general has caused the breed to go down the drain entirely, duh.


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## carmspack

do remember that my reply was to RunShepRun's comment

"It looks to me that IPO is so much about OB now, maybe always has been, but more so with this style of heeling"

which is not the style that was in the trial ring when she grew up in Germany in the late 70's.

Steve said "If we set aside extreme for a minute, how much of your opinion on heeling would come down to you just never tried?"

never tried ? you don't bag Obedience Grand Victrix with score of 199.5 / 200 -- 3 Dog World Awards, Benjamin Schultz Award, Sentry Challenge Award without speedy , accurate , precise delivery. I did not train with trickery or ball lure -- I selected for , yes , wait for it , genetic obedience -- the natural desire to work with and for .

Same goes for competing in Campagne where the field you are going through is a "dirty" environment , littered with cats flitzing in and out of the corn field 10 feet in front of you and dog --- not planned , just happens, -- multiple decoys , people and kids on bikes etc etc . 
An awareness does not mean that the dog is distracted .
A good dog won't be tempted.

I find Pavlovian behaviour shaping and micro management of a dog disturbing . There is a loss of awe and respect for what the animal (in the larger sense) can contribute , instead used as tools to reach an ego-goal.

and that brings us right to the topic of ball drive vs old time work ethic.
experienced ball drive ? good . It is handy and is fun .
experienced old time work ethic ? if you did you would know what it was/is/ could be /should be


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## Steve Strom

I mean the type of heeling you don't approve of Carmen. Have you ever tried it?


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## onyx'girl

The game has changed....the Malinois have set this bar for focused heeling and the GSD needs to conform to that level or the points are taken.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol..I see a lot of stories and excuses...par for the course with this place. 

To all you prey drive is evil people. It gets the dog to the fight, to the drugs and brings speed and power to the obedience. Without it you wont get far in any major bite sport or LE work.


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## Steve Strom

onyx'girl said:


> The game has changed....the Malinois have set this bar for focused heeling and the GSD needs to conform to that level or the points are taken.


I think there's a very distinct move away from Mal style heeling. I'm just trying to get an idea of what is extreme to someone but not to others.


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## GatorDog

I think the bar was set by good training...not any certain breed of dog.


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## onyx'girl

GatorDog said:


> I think the bar was set by good training...not any certain breed of dog.


Bart, Ivan Michael....what breed are they all working?


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## GatorDog

onyx'girl said:


> Bart, Ivan Michael....what breed are they all working?


Meh, I think they're great trainers and have great dogs, but there are also more than a few GSD people consistently getting to the top levels as well. Debbie, Wallace, Diehl..and a few who have been equally successful with both breeds - Kroyer and Fabian..


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## onyx'girl

yes, but the ones you mention aren't marketing their training techniques with video's and schools. There was a shift to the fancy heeling, between the legs, backwards heeling, etc...making an 'art' out of an exercise. I am not disagreeing at all, just pointing out an observation happening over the past decade. (meh, what is that?)


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## carmspack

I did trick training- showmanship and then made myself available for charity events, boy scouts events , the big annual Sportsmen show which also held very old style benched shows - where I competed .

One "trick" was to be stationary , dog at heel position, but back to the audience . This was part of the "trick" explained with we didn't want the dog getting a message from the audience or being cued by them. Meanwhile an assistant would pick a volunteer out of the audience who would write a big R or a big L on a sheet of paper, with a sequence - 2 R 3 L . To ensure that the assistant wasn't influencing the dog by coming in close , he/she would transfer the letter with a erasable marker on a big white board. 

R was clockwise dog going backwards around myself to the right. L was counter clockwise dog going backwards tightly around myself - shoulder centered to my legs .

Always a favourite . Dog HAD to have eye contact in order to stop and go , and change direction.

It is training .


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## Steve Strom

Clever. Hang on to it Carmen. Cling to it forever and ever.


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## carmspack

you asked me if I had done any such thing and I gave you an answer.


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## Steve Strom

you asked me if I had done any such thing and I gave you an answer.

Yep, thanks. If I ever need a question answered about tricks, I know who to ask.


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## Steve Strom

Is there any way to tell if this puppy is searching for the sheer joy of finding the person, or the ball he gets teased with first?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk1hEDxwVaI


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## gsdsar

Did you watch the whole video? Cause I think the end of the final scenario and the short retrieves and ball searches answer that question pretty clearly. 

Personally not a fan of how that training was done. But seems like a nice pup.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, I watched it. Looks like prey drive for a ball. Finding the person satisfies the drive for the prey item, a ball.


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## gsdsar

But in the end, when the man is found, the ball hangs from his hand and the puppy is looking at the man with joy, not messing or caring about the ball. 

Yes there was prey involved, but it was not invoked with a toy being teased(cause nothing in that video looked like teasing with toy) it was the man running away that got the puppy reacting. 

Just from my own observation. That was not a high toy drive(is that really a thing) dog. At all.


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## onyx'girl

young pups generally aren't all about a ball, but they are all about the handler....restrained recalls work well because pup wants to get to the handler with rocket speed.


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## Steve Strom

The pup knows he has a ball. Its in plain site and the dog is restricted by being in the crate. You can't see what he does with the ball when the pup finds him, but even puppies can understand when something is finished.

If its about the man running away, why even have the ball?


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## gsdsar

Steve Strom said:


> The pup knows he has a ball. Its in plain site and the dog is restricted by being in the crate. You can't see what he does with the ball when the pup finds him, but even puppies can understand when something is finished.
> 
> If its about the man running away, why even have the ball?



I think I have either been unable to explain to you the concept of using a toy as a vehicle for reward or you just can't understand it. 

But we covered it very thoroughly in your tracking thread.


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## Steve Strom

onyx'girl said:


> young pups generally aren't all about a ball, but they are all about the handler....restrained recalls work well because pup wants to get to the handler with rocket speed.


But at whatever point you introduce a ball, its a part of it all. You don't get to decide how much it matters. Its up to the dog.


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## Steve Strom

gsdsar said:


> I think I have either been unable to explain to you the concept of using a toy as a vehicle for reward or you just can't understand it.
> 
> But we covered it very thoroughly in your tracking thread.


This is the tracking thread, I understand rewards just fine. You want to pretend the dog is doing it just for the sake of doing it. I'm saying unless you've done nothing but praise and good boys from the beginning, its not possible to separate the use of the toy and say he's doing it for the love of doing it.


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## carmspack

IT WAS NOT SEARCH FOR A BALL

Nick is my dog . I started him off , master tracks . Turned him over to my "partner" to continue with the program. If he had not been wild about doing master tracks I would not have chosen him.

"Personally not a fan of how that training was done. But seems like a nice pup"

It isn't training -- it is to observe the dog for natural intensity and for problem solving and for tenacity and mental endurance. 
The dog has to have it . 
This dog is now working 6 days a week average 10 hour days - accurate to a fault , flies across to the eastern sea coast provinces to do requested search work , and by now is probably a fully certified international disaster search dog as well.

Repeat litter -- same qualities -- 3 out of 3 certified in the same field of specialized detection.
Cathy, Gus's owner videoed one of the young pups , 8 , 9 weeks max doing an independent search for an object which had no significance to him, on an unstable load of pallets and yard waste . He was single minded in finding it.

She can tell you there was no ball play before or after . Just a hunt search crazy dog.

Same with a dog that was tested by law enforcement - location not known to me till virtually time to be there and meet. Back of a LCBO (liquor control) warehouse where they had their cardboard recycling piled may 8 to 10 feet , screaming hot summer. They had a leather patch impregnated with some body scent from having been inside a cap . Dog would air scent , scramble up the cardboard that was hot to the foot and moving , shifting. Dog found it . Possession with hard grip , we were afraid the dog would swallow it. He went in to service a few months later (hip prelims first)

that is the difference between something that is shaped and something that is intrinsic . 

back to the memory vault which Strom opened, at those events and those trials there were some exceptionally keen competitors with Shelties (the superstars of competitive obedience in those days) and mini poodles , that had a laser line of eye contact in heeling . Nicely animated . I trained with many of these people in the same church basements and school gyms --- there was no ball play --- this was about connection.

If it were all about prey and ball play to get the bad guy in LE , then any fly ball dog should be able to do it.

GSD is more complicated and many things are being left out , atrophied , in breeding . The genetics for for these things are harder to find. Just as it is harder to find people who understand or who have experienced this , something which at one time was expected.


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## Jax08

oh Steve. You and your balls.


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## carmspack

this is Nick 3 or 4 days after I turned him over https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U56RfWpNwaM

chosen for genetic obedience 

already follows willingly , handler attentive , with lots of distractions -- even on the left side !! in step with the person.


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## GatorDog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw7r2GIoj6A

This is rewarding a search with a ball, is it not?


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## Steve Strom

GatorDog said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw7r2GIoj6A
> 
> This is rewarding a search with a ball, is it not?


No. It is not.


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## J-Boo

Jax08 said:


> oh Steve. You and your balls.


I have not been following this whole thread, but I just have to chime in to say - this post wins. Everything. 

On a less amusing note, I just played Carmen's YouTube video of puppy Nick and even that sent Maya into a tizzy. Hackling, barking, bonkers. Sigh... Although I guess this gives me more ammunition in my attempts to desensitize her, without any actual people or dogs having the daylights scared out of them.


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## Steve Strom

J-Boo said:


> I have not been following this whole thread, but I just have to chime in to say - this post wins. Everything.
> 
> On a less amusing note, I just played Carmen's YouTube video of puppy Nick and even that sent Maya into a tizzy. Hackling, barking, bonkers. Sigh... Although I guess this gives me more ammunition in my attempts to desensitize her, without any actual people or dogs having the daylights scared out of them.


Well, in conjunction with a magnet, they are impressive. Bright red:

https://www.allk-9.com/euro-magnet-ball-with-magnets-p-1135.html


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## carmspack

No it is not . The find was effortless and obvious to the dog. It was the shaping of the BARK . Dog bark , he got the ball , but then he went in to the shed to see and be with the man.


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## Steve Strom

Effortless, I'll say. 10 yards isn't all that difficult. Frustration for a ball, who woulda thought.


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## GatorDog

I'd hope it were an effortless find as the dog just watched where the person hid..


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## carmspack

then it was not rewarding a search with a ball .

the ball wasn't necessary .

I - we never knew where a dog would wind up and when -- using a ball facilitated other handlers familiarity and reliance on ball play as a reward system 

the other dog in the videos is Badger , who tracked a 3 hour old track of an escaped fennec fox 
Badger's brother Blast was Urban Tracking Dog Excellent just after his 3rd birthday


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## Steve Strom

Kinda blows the idea of the genetic bark out the window though.


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## gsdsar

Steve Strom said:


> This is the tracking thread, I understand rewards just fine. You want to pretend the dog is doing it just for the sake of doing it. I'm saying unless you've done nothing but praise and good boys from the beginning, its not possible to separate the use of the toy and say he's doing it for the love of doing it.



BWAHAHAHAHAHA yes it is. Sorry my bad.


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## onyx'girl

barking for a toy in a blind, does it transfer over to a powerful guard? Barking out of frustration is done often in training, from videos I see posted on this board.


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## Steve Strom

onyx'girl said:


> barking for a toy in a blind, does it transfer over to a powerful guard? Barking out of frustration is done often in training, from videos I see posted on this board.


Hmm, I think it would depend on where the cows and sandhill cranes are.


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## carmspack

strom you said " I'm saying unless you've done nothing but praise and good boys from the beginning, its not possible to separate the use of the toy and say he's doing it for the love of doing it."

I believe this is where the problem lies in understanding.
The topic is ball drive vs old time work ethic.

By definition work ethic is a sense of responsibility applied to achieve a goal and functions day in and day out with commitment so that the team functions with best outcome and performance. 
It is part of the character of the person and of the dog.
Many of the dogs that I talk about do have these traits passed on through generations through HERDING lines , where a dedicated team is vital , where there has to be some pride in work well done, and there has to be self discipline.
I remember Ellen Nicklesberg writing about her GSD left in charge of her flock while she drove into town . That is reliable.

Guard the object with handler absent for a prolonged time would be a good test .

This RunShepherdRun and Vandal cover it well on page 16.

Nick and the shed -- handler runs into shed in play view of the dog who is a social animal who wants to reconnect and all on his own has to figure out what behaviour he has to offer to achieve that goal. He runs through the menu until he hits the right one. The reward was to connect with the person . It could have been done without the ball as very early videos show .

There are dogs with strong work ethic with ball drive , not because of ball drive . There are dogs with strong work ethic without ball drive.
There are dogs with ball drive that have no work ethic , needing installments to keep them at work. 

Strom you said some where that it was complicated in understanding because you didn't understand the dynamics between the A to the Z . Can you explain this.


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## onyx'girl

Steve Strom said:


> Hmm, I think it would depend on where the cows and sandhill cranes are.


meaning what? Are you referring to my tracking experiences? How does that relate to barking for a toy?


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## Steve Strom

Thanks Carmen, I was just looking for training specifics, and while I appreciate the guided tour through the magical kingdom, I must not have made sense in what I'm wondering about.


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## Steve Strom

onyx'girl said:


> meaning what? Are you referring to my tracking experiences? How does that relate to barking for a toy?


It doesn't.


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## onyx'girl

so what is your point? Did you learn anything from this thread, or is it all just a big joke to you?


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## Steve Strom

No, not all. You're clever dig at Carma's bark & hold video, I thought was though.


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## martemchik

I’m noticing a very interesting thought process in this thread…the idea that we’re training “real” working dogs. 99.99% of us aren’t training “real” working dogs. We focus our training on a sport and on certain exercises because our dogs are just expected to do those things. We’re all pet owners who choose to do something extra with our dogs, and yet people that do the same exact thing are belittling the training methods and choices that some make. Everyone arguing that the heeling, or the barking, or whatever else they see out of dogs on a sport field isn’t a realistic need or expectation from a working dog is just denying their own goals or maybe just living in their own little dream world where the dog they bring to club every weekend is their own personal police K9 that's just a phone call away from being called into action. It’s interesting to me that people can’t just accept that the way certain dogs do exercises is done that way because the handler chooses to push/train for a certain picture over a different one.

So what that one person can train their dog to focus heel for minutes at a time? And what if they use a ball to do that? If done properly…the ball can eventually, and quite quickly be taken away and the focus will remain. Have a dog that can do that without needing a ball? All the power to you. Does it matter much at the end of the day? Not really. Dog will bark for a ball? Again…if done properly, can easily be transferred to a helper and when done properly the guarding is just as powerful as a dog that is taught in a different way. Prey frustration is how most young dogs will learn to bark, why is that an issue? A police K9 doesn’t hold and bark, and in my opinion, a dog under real threat wouldn’t be expected to bark first and bite after. A real threat to a dog will look like an attack from the onset, it’s highly unlikely to be anything like the picture most of us train for in the various sports we do. Anyone that feels the need to challenge the “power” of a dog that will hold and bark for a ball, feel free to strap on a sleeve and stand in front of a dog that was properly taught that exercise. Actually, forget the sleeve, if the expectation is that the dog isn’t real enough to bite…you shouldn’t need a sleeve at all, the dog won’t engage right? 

In regards to tracking…it is my opinion that two different tracking styles are being discussed/expected. There’s tracking for sport and real tracking or detection. Different things are expected from the dogs doing their respective “types” of tracking. And again, all a matter of opinion what is better or right. I’ve accepted the type of tracking I do, as I don’t expect the local police department to come calling if a child goes missing tomorrow, if that was my goal, I’d be training in a different way than I do.

Anyways…too much speaking in generality and extremes. All dogs are different. Every dog in each litter is different and has different drives. Up to the handler/trainer to tap into those drives in order to figure out how to get the best out of that particular dog. If a method works for one trainer…great! If a different method works for another one…great! Why is it such a battle over “how it should be?” How it should be is a matter of opinion and is greatly subjective based on what it is each of us looks for out of our dogs.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with you, Max. There are many ways to train, many things to do with this great breed. That is why the GSD is so popular, because this breed can and does most anything asked of it. 
FWIW, I wasn't posting a dig at anything, just pointing out a ball can be used and is used all the time, in most vids I see posted. Building frustration is also used all the time. We backtie and tease up pups, or play a game of miss, miss, fuss. 
A dog can still have a work ethic and ball drive,title shouldn't read *vs* but, *and*.


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## gsdsar

Max, well said. 

My area of "expertise" or better said "experience" is not sport world. Though that is one of my new focuses. I am learning a lot of good training techniques and theories as they apply to IPO and I do implement them to get a better performance out of my dog for IPO. There is nothing wrong with that. 

But I think talking in generalities is good sometimes. Maybe it makes someone think about what they are seeing or why they are doing what they are doing and what that tells them about the overall dog, not just the picture. There is nothing wrong with that either.


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## MadLab

Interview with Helmut Raiser briefly discussing the heeling topic



> _*RSV2000......It appears that a great deal of time is spent in obedience to teach the dogs to heel. What are your views on the - let me call it mali-type free heeling of the German Shepherds?*_
> 
> Dr Helmut Raiser....... as with such practice the genotype is being mistreated and another phenotype emerges, which he in truth not really is. The dismantling of the character is here the lesser evil. We all have often enough seen how curiosity in the anatomy can ruin the breed, but it seems not yet to be common knowledge that oddity in behavior can affect the breed mentally


RSV2000 .:. Dr. Helmut Raiser in interview

Why do the old school have this view. Have they seen a demise already that they don't want repeated?

Are they stuck in a vision of what they think the GS aught to be?


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## björn

If a dog is dependent on toys to carry on working then it´s not suited for working hard as a tracking or detectiondog, just as a huntingdog shouldn´t quit just becasue he didn´t find prey that day. I guess that´s the point of the discussion, some dogs have a strong desire to follow a track and not quit and natural ability to do so more than others. We want dogs who find the track selfrewarding and not depending on other stimulation because then they will quit and not suited for service one person responsible for educationg trackingdogs for the police put it. This is is not about "balldrive" or not, most good GSDs have intresst in preyobjects.


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## EMH

gsdsar said:


> Wait, maybe I am being obtuse, but how are you using a ball to teach a dog to track.
> 
> I have seen food used. But never a ball. Well sometimes at the end as a final reward. But normally food.


Get one of those green, hollow, rubber balls that you can stuff treats into.
Fill it with delicious pieces of stinky cheese.

My dog has excellent prey/ball drive and huge food drive. So it's a double whammy, so to speak, for him. "OMG CHEESE AND BALL AHHHHHHHHHHH :wild: "


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