# When does protective instinct kick in?



## RazinKain

I know i've read about this on the forum but I can't find it. My question is: Generally, at what age does the male pup begin to seriously display his need to protect his family? If I remember correctly, I read approximately 9 months of age but I'm not sure. My Kain is quickly approaching 9 months (3 more weeks) and I need to know if I need to be extra vigilant during the next few weeks to avoid any biting/lunging incidents with guests. Kain is a very socialized pup and accepts house guests pretty well but someone on here stated that a 'switch is flipped' in their brains when they hit this magic age. Any info would be great. Thanks!


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## onyx'girl

I think it depends on the dogs threshold level and the way you've managed and trained whether or not the reactive behaviors even begin. Genetics play a role in it as well. 
My male is almost 22 months and shows suspicion, but not actively reacting to sounds, people coming and going. He assesses situations before anything and generally never reacts, but definately has it in him. I consider him medium threshold but it depends on the situation too.


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## Elaine

I've never seen or heard of any switch flipping. So long as your dog is socialized and friendly to guests now, there is no reason for that to change.


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## rvadog

Randomly biting and lunging at guests has nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, with a "need to protect his family". Any dog that randomly starts agressing towards people without giving you warning behaviors is "off".

I've said it before but I'll say it again. Very, very, very few dogs have some kind of natural urge to protect and are willing to back it up with teeth. A loyal, well behaved dog is a deterrent. Nothing more.


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## onyx'girl

The switch is a fear stage for the most part, a pup will go thru a reactive period around 9 months. But as I posted above genetics and training play a role in whether or not that ever happens...and I agree it isn't "protectiveness" at all, but usually based in fear.


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## PaddyD

My dog started acting like a watch dog at 6 months. She is excellent at barking when strangers approach the house and she is instantly friendly when people come inside. She can be quite scary to people who don't know her but they are immediately won over by her wags when we tell her everything is OK.


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## Lucy Dog

Lucy turns 3 in March and she shows absolutely no protective type behavior at all. The only thing she'd protect me from is a squirrel and that's it. Other than that, no protectiveness.

Forget what you see in movies or on tv, if you want a protective dog, you're probably going to have to do some kind of protection training.


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## Lesley1905

Lucy Dog said:


> Lucy turns 3 in March and she shows absolutely no protective type behavior at all. The only thing she'd protect me from is a squirrel and that's it. Other than that, no protectiveness.
> 
> If you want a protective dog, you're probably going to have to do some kind of protection training.


 
As she should....those squirrels can be dangerous!! Hehe thats so cute  

I agree with what everyone is saying above!


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## Lucy Dog

Lesley1905 said:


> As she should....those squirrels can be dangerous!! Hehe thats so cute


Oh yes... those very dangerous squirrels. She sits by the window for hours where she can see the entire backyard and just waits for them to even dare to enter her yard. As soon as they do, her bark alone shakes the entire house. It's actually kind of scary how determined she is to get one, but i'm an animal lover and I'd never allow it. I'll let her out, but i always give the squirrels a head start before i actually let her go. They're always halfway over the fence before she's even out of the house. Even saying the word "squirrel" will get her going nuts.


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## Lesley1905

My husbands old dog was the exact same way with those little critters. It's so funny how something so small can stir the pot for them!


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## Lucy Dog

Lesley1905 said:


> My husbands old dog was the exact same way with those little critters. It's so funny how something so small can stir the pot for them!


Two words... prey drive. It's very strong with this one.


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## BowWowMeow

Rafi didn't start alert barking until he was 3. Massie and Chama started earlier, between a year and a year and a half, but none of them randomly attacked company (thank goodness)! I did have two fear aggressive dogs but one was like this due to abuse and neglect and the other due to genetics.


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## Lucy Dog

Are we talking alert barking or protectiveness because I think of them as two completely different things. 

Lucy started with the alert barking around a year. If someone rings the door bell, she'll give out a couple warning barks. Same goes if she hears a car pull up to the driveway, but I don't think of alert barking and being protective of their family as the same thing.


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## RazinKain

Thanks for all the replies guys. I must have completely misunderstood the other thread I read regarding this. I'm actually relieved. Kain is in no way aggressive nor fearful. He has never 'randomly' attacked or lunged at anyone as stated above. Like I said, he's a very gracious host and I like it that way. But in the past, I have owned dogs (ACD's inparticular) that went through mental changes as they matured and their whole demeanor towards strangers changed for the worst. Didn't know if this same behavior was relevant to the GSD. Oh yeah, Kain absolutely goes nuts for squirrels too!


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## codmaster

rvadog said:


> Randomly biting and lunging at guests has nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, with a "need to protect his family". Any dog that randomly starts agressing towards people without giving you warning behaviors is "off".
> 
> I've said it before but I'll say it again. Very, very, very few dogs have some kind of natural urge to protect and are willing to back it up with teeth. A loyal, well behaved dog is a deterrent. Nothing more.


It seems maybe you should try to walk into the house of many of the members on this forum unannounced and see if their dogs are "nothing more than a deterrent". You might get a real surprise?

Out of the 7 or so GSDs that we have had 5 of them would no doubt bite in that situation.


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## codmaster

Lucy Dog said:


> Lucy turns 3 in March and she shows absolutely no protective type behavior at all. The only thing she'd protect me from is a squirrel and that's it. Other than that, no protectiveness.
> 
> Forget what you see in movies or on tv, if you want a protective dog, you're probably going to have to do some kind of protection training.


I bet it might help to pick a puppy from different breeding if you actually want a protective dog - and sometimes they can surprise their owner.


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## Lucy Dog

codmaster said:


> It seems maybe you should try to walk into the house of many of the members on this forum unannounced and see if their dogs are "nothing more than a deterrent". You might get a real surprise?
> 
> Out of the 7 or so GSDs that we have had 5 of them would no doubt bite in that situation.


So what happens if a friend of yours that's never met your dog just so happens to walk in your house unannounced? Your dogs would immediately go after and bite the unknown guest?


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## SchDDR

Lucy Dog said:


> So what happens if a friend of yours that's never met your dog just so happens to walk in your house unannounced? Your dogs would immediately go after and bite the unknown guest?


My friends call from the driveway and make sure I'm there before they even knock. Not because of the animals, they're perfectly friendly with all of my friends.

The handler is a whole 'nother matter.


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## Lucy Dog

I can understand that there are certain dogs that will attack someone walking in the house unannounced, but I certainly wouldn't think that this would be considered the norm or a desired personality trait. It actually sounds like a good way to get sued.

Barking and attacking are two different things. Attacking someone for walking in your house is not protecting anything if the person doesn't pose any kind of threat. 

This is why I mentioned in an earlier post that if you want a protective dog to have it professionally trained to do so. Assuming a dog is just going to get protective when the clock strikes midnight on it's first birthday or something along the lines is just not going to happen. 

People often mistake being fearful with being protective when, in reality, they're two completely opposite personality traits.


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## codmaster

Lucy Dog said:


> So what happens if a friend of yours that's never met your dog just so happens to walk in your house unannounced? Your dogs would immediately go after and bite the unknown guest?


Probably, and what is wrong with that? 

Why would someone walk in unannounced? If they were a friend then they would know that we have a large dog that they had never met and only an idiot would walk into such a house! 

If they were a stranger then they have absolutely no right to enter my house on their own. Wouldn't you agree with that?

So yes, they would probably get bit or at the least scared to death.


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## Lucy Dog

codmaster said:


> Probably, and what is wrong with that?
> 
> Why would someone walk in unannounced? If they were a friend then they would know that we have a large dog that they had never met and only an idiot would walk into such a house!
> *
> If they were a stranger then they have absolutely no right to enter my house on their own. Wouldn't you agree with that?*
> 
> So yes, they would probably get bit or at the least scared to death.


You are correct, but accidents do happen. What if a neighbors young kid happens to walk in not knowing any better? Young kids usually don't think before entering - it happens. What happens if an invited friend forgets you have a large dog and just happen to walk in without knocking first? Again, accidents happen. 

It's just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't want to have a liability like that. I'd be too worried about either getting sued or being responsible for an innocent person getting hurt. Really, I'm not even sure if I'd even consider this type of behavior protection.


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## FG167

Madix has alert barked for as long as I can remember. However, he was raised with two other dogs that are crazy alert barkers and he is VERY vocal to begin with. So, with Madix there was no flipped switch in the house. 

He began to react to my body language differently around 1 yr 3 months ish - which this is a different breed and his particular line is known to mature slowly - so probably around the same mind-set as an 8-10 month old GSD. In the past, I could tense up and he would not react at all and would wait to assess the situation. Once he hit that mark, he DID become more protective, if I tensed up he would growl or bark at the person who made me tense. This was something I, myself, had to work on - I needed to relax and control myself better lol. And teach him appropriate ways to respond, which is working wonderfully.

On that note, I had a friend drive me home once and she went into the restroom while I let the boys out of my bedroom and fed them - then I went into the other restroom. So, I was "gone" and she came out of the bathroom and Madix set up an unholy racket, I could hear him racing through the apartment looking for me. He had met her one other time but still did not growl or try to snap at her, but he was definitely riled up, he was standing in front of my other dog and clearly "protecting" him from my friend coming any closer - I came out of the bathroom said "hush, you're fine" and he settled right down (and got pets and snuggles from my friend). If this had happened when I was living with my ex, Madix would've taken it in stride, he was about 6 months. So, he's definitely become more protective but he hasn't lost his mind and he still thinks - he just isn't as passive about it. So not necessarily a switch being thrown, more an awareness coming about. If that makes sense...


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## onyx'girl

codmaster said:


> Probably, and what is wrong with that?
> 
> Why would someone walk in unannounced? If they were a friend then they would know that we have a large dog that they had never met and only an idiot would walk into such a house!
> 
> If they were a stranger then they have absolutely no right to enter my house on their own. Wouldn't you agree with that?
> 
> So yes, they would probably get bit or at the least scared to death.


 My sister who doesn't come over often (the dogs don't know her)walked in the other night. no knock~ just came in.
Onyx & Kacie went nuts barking. I quieted them, and after that they were fine. I would hope they never thought it was ok to bite in such a situation. Niether of them are strong nerved dogs.
Because my sister sounds like me I think the dogs were put at ease immediately, but I told her she should have let me know she was coming in!


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## rvadog

Codmaster,

PPD's are a deterrent. Thats it. If there is a bad guy that is determined enough not to be scared of by your dogs barking then he's going to shoot your dog and keep coming after you. I'm glad you think it's cool that your dogs will bite people in your home with out your permission. I have perhaps one use for a dog like that.


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## codmaster

Lucy Dog said:


> You are correct, but accidents do happen. What if a neighbors young kid happens to walk in not knowing any better? Young kids usually don't think before entering - it happens. What happens if an invited friend forgets you have a large dog and just happen to walk in without knocking first? Again, accidents happen.
> 
> It's just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't want to have a liability like that. I'd be too worried about either getting sued or being responsible for an innocent person getting hurt. Really, I'm not even sure if I'd even consider this type of behavior protection.


Would you prefer a dog who would let someone walk into your house and steal your stuff, or even worse perhaps harm one of your fasmily and sit there and do nothing?

Certainly your choice of course.

If I am there and let them in, then he is all over the people with a friendly greeting (actually a little too friendly and pushy sometimes); but if i am not there and some stranger walks in then he acts like a GSD should (protective).

Just my opinion of what my dog should do and what I would expect him to do.

Worried about liability - put a big sign on the outside - "GSD inside"! (advice from a lawyer friend).


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## horsegirl

codmaster said:


> Would you prefer a dog who would let someone walk into your house and steal your stuff, or even worse perhaps harm one of your fasmily and sit there and do nothing?
> 
> Certainly your choice of course.
> 
> If I am there and let them in, then he is all over the people with a friendly greeting (actually a little too friendly and pushy sometimes); but if i am not there and some stranger walks in then he acts like a GSD should (protective).
> 
> Just my opinion of what my dog should do and what I would expect him to do.
> 
> Worried about liability - put a big sign on the outside - "GSD inside"! (advice from a lawyer friend).


Well said


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## codmaster

rvadog said:


> Codmaster,
> 
> PPD's are a deterrent. Thats it. If there is a bad guy that is determined enough not to be scared of by your dogs barking then he's going to shoot your dog and keep coming after you. I'm glad you think it's cool that your dogs will bite people in your home with out your permission. I have perhaps one use for a dog like that.


Appears that if someone (bad guy? - we went from a friend coming in unannounced to a "bad guy" huh?) is scared off by the barking; then I guess they wouldn't come into the house at all - then they won't get bit, would they?


Who said anything about a PPD? - that is something entirely different and you should realize it. 

Are you aware of the normal GSD temperament and breed characteristics at all?

BTW, I have a nice use for you as well. 

As I said, you have a right to any type of dog that you want. Why get a GSD? - maybe a Golden sounds more like the dog? Very nice dogs and not too protective!

BTW, we were talking about someone entering (breaking in) to your house WITHOUT you there, can you explain how one gives permission to a dog to do *anything* if you are not there? Please explain how you do that - sounds like you may have discovered a brand new training approach!

Heh! Heh! Heh!


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## PaddyD

horsegirl said:


> Well said


Agreed

If I just wanted a 'dog' I wouldn't have gotten a GSD.


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## rvadog

Codmaster,

I wish, really wish you were on the East Coast. I could show you that your dogs wouldn't defend anything unless they couldn't escape.

I never mentioned a friend coming in unannounced. That was someone else. 

I train GSD's because I like working dogs and there are few breeds that work as well as a good GSD. I also know the limitations of what people call "protectiveness". I'm glad your dog barks at the door. So does mine. I have little use for a dog that doesn't. But I'm responsible for the safety of my house and I know the limitations of my dogs.


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## Zoeys mom

I think your average dog including an ankle biter is going to alert bark...even when they know the guest most dogs vocalize when someone is home. A protective dog and a PPD are two different things and a PPD is not going to just attack someone without being given a command. As a matter of fact your regular house dog is probably more prone to bite a stranger than a PPD without being asked to,lol

GSD's are guardian breeds which is why they are more prone to resource guarding and issues with leadership. Some GSD's are as friendly as a lab but that is not the breeds temperament standard. A stranger coming into your home is going to be greeted as a stranger. If that stranger is threatening your average mature GSD is going to look to you for guidance and react accordingly, but saying is dog will not bite an intruder is misleading. Even my friendly lab would bite someone breaking in


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## Lucy Dog

How is your average pet GSD or dog in general supposed to know the difference between a potential intruder wanting to cause harm and someone just walking in who means no harm without training?

If they don't know the difference, it seems to me like you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands and dogs in need of some training. Barking and alerting you to a noise outside is one thing, but to physically attack (without a command to attack) the unknown in your home is another. 

Eventually an innocent person is going to walk into your home and will get attacked if you allow this type of behavior.


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## Lilie

I don't think any one can say for 100% sure if their dog will protect them in the moment of a crisis. There are a lot of emotions running at that moment and I think you would be surprised what a well trained, well socialized, loyal & stranger friendly dog will do at the moment you are in fear of your life. I truly think that if in a situation where someone is attempting to do me harm and I were to fight for my life, my dogs will fight as well. Will they mark a perfect bite and hold? No, most likely not. Will they run for their lives, or bring a ball to the fight? Nope, don't think that would happen. 

I had a mini doxie that was a rescue, she had every fear you could imagine. If I had company she would bury her body behind me and not come out. If a strange dog came over she would run and hide. She was a basket case. One day a stray was in my yard - I went to chase it away and it turned on me barking and showing it's teeth. I froze in MY yard and out of no where she came dashing past me....screaming as if she was in the grips of the devil himself...and ran right under the dog, taking his legs out from under him. It scared the dog so badly that he did turn and run. My doxie kept running..still screaming and we had to chase her down. The point was she went way over her threshold to protect me. 

Nobody enters my house with out knocking. Even my sister who lives less than 10 miles down the road will knock before entering my house. I wouldn't dream of doing that to someone else. My husband who is on the road alot, will call me before he comes home. It isn't the dog he is concerned with.

And btw - my dog would be the least of your worries if you were to enter my house and startle me. I'm not being rude, just truthful.


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## codmaster

rvadog said:


> Codmaster,
> 
> I wish, really wish you were on the East Coast. I could show you that your dogs wouldn't defend anything unless they couldn't escape.
> 
> I never mentioned a friend coming in unannounced. That was someone else.
> 
> I train GSD's because I like working dogs and there are few breeds that work as well as a good GSD. I also know the limitations of what people call "protectiveness". I'm glad your dog barks at the door. So does mine. I have little use for a dog that doesn't. But I'm responsible for the safety of my house and I know the limitations of my dogs.


Used to be on the east coast, then moved way out west. 

Suggest if you do try to walk into my house unannounced, or into any one else's house with a normal GSD that you first invest in a good bite suit.

And actually I currently only have one dog.

So, it sounds like it is good for you that you know the limitations of your own dogs.

Of course the owner is responsible for the safety of their house - never said otherwise.

My comment was on what my dog would do if someone entered my house uninvited and unannounced - he would bark and almost certainly bite. 

I assume from your comments that your dog(s) would either run and hide, or maybe be friendly to the intruder.

If you are happy with that reaction, and it sounds like you would be; or maybe just expect your dog to do so - that of course is fine as long as you are satisfied with that reaction. 

I would expect a friends Golden to act like that but certainly not my GSD or any other normal temperamented GSD. Would some GSD's act like that - of course; but that doesn't make it the correct behavior.

But that is just my opinion- everyone is welcome to their own.


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## Ucdcrush

I don't think most dogs would bite if someone calmly walked in. Bark yes, but to be bitten I think the dog would need to be responding to something that the person does-- like reach for the dog, move towards it, or perhaps just being nervous and moving away from the dog.

By the way, I have to chuckle at the idea of someone walking in unannounced.. but I am from a place where we always lock our doors.


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## HankGSD

My (almost) 4-month old alert barks whenever someone comes to the front door, or if I just open it to get the mail from the box. His bark is very deep and sounds like he is an adult. I don't know whether this behavior counts as protective instinct, but I thought I'd post a reply to give an age reference.


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## Caledon

Just read in the paper this morning that a 70 year old woman was murdered in her home, can't remember the exact area but I believe that is is not too far from Toronto. The police believe that she did not know her attacker.

She lived alone with her two German Shepherds.

I don't know what my dog would do. I do know that she is used to strangers entering our house and she does not react to each of them the same way. Some times she is very aloof and others (most) she can't wait to greet them.


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