# Afraid of Training?



## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I tried something new today trying to stay away from bow since anytime I tried to train that trick before he cowered and went and layed down. He did know the trick and did it fine for a long time then all the suddon he started freaking out. I started training him to jump trough a hoop today of course I just had is sat on the ground and was praising him for just walking through it, but almost immediately he started getting scared. It's like now he is afraid to learn anything new. He does good with his sit, down, stay, roll over, and shake. Other than those if I try something new he freaks. I don't know what to do this is really upsetting I want to teach him so many things, but I can't if he just shuts down before I try. I guess I was starting to get mad maybe he's afraid of me now or afraid of training? What should I do?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Is he only reacting to tricks that cause him to be more physical than others? Perhaps he is in pain.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

What do you mean by "starting to get mad"?


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

No it's anything new I try to train him. It's almost as if he doesn't get whatever it is on the first try he gets upset afraid and just runs off. I just started to get really frustrated one day when I was trying to do some obedience outside trying to make a video to post online and he wasn't doing any of the tricks he just kept barking and barking and barking I had a piece of pork chop and I guess I just got mad and yelled at him to hush up. It's just odd, because he is so egar to do all the basic tricks and doesn't get nervous, but anything new he totally shuts down and takes off.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

You mentioned in one of your other posts that you have only had the dog for 7-8 months and that he came from an abusive family? I think if you got mad at him while training, he might have rememered something from his past that caused him to shut down. 
I think you need to slow down and try and regain his trust and get him to the point where he is not fearful of trying new things again.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

How am I supposed to do that? I thought I was going slow I was upbeat giving him treats and he almost immediately started cowering before I could begin.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Don't coddle the cower. Ignore it. Stop the training. Play, play, play with lots of reward and praise. Do walks, hikes, whatever. Get the trust back first.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

How do I gain it back, should I just stop the obedience/tricks for now, because once he starts to cower he won't play or do anything he will just cower lay in his bed and not look me.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

My Echo is so sensitive that if I so much as sigh or she senses/feels me getting the least bit tense she will shut down. And she has always lived with us, no abusive prior life to get over. She has taught me to relax, breathe deep, and keep things very very light.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I tried playing with one of his squeakies that he actually plays with and he didn't want anything to do with it he just crawled to my lap and rolled on his back. Of course I didn't push the toy I just stood up and started to play with the toy with Smokey.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Try to do basic trick's while playing with your boy. Example, Zoey LOVESSSS tennis balls, and every morning and 3-4 times after work, we play out back and I throw the ball back and forth. In between throwing back and forth, Ill have her do a few obedience tricks and then continue playing. Perhaps you could do this as well.... Toss the ball back and forth, grab the hoop and toss the ball through it? I don;t know how high his drive is but I'm assuming he loves tennis balls 
Just a thought.
GL on your training and I hope your boy comes around.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Man I wish he did love balls. No he doesn't have a toy or ball drive him favorite thing in the world is just going outside and walking. I wish wish wish he had a ball drive I love playing fetch with dogs


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I thought I would begin t teach chief to close cabinets as I was playing with Smokey doing it and he seemed so interested, so I blocked smokey from the kitchen and had some cubes of ham and had Chief sitting in front of the cabinet and all I was telling him to do was give me paw which he knows and my hand was in front of the cabinet any time he gave me paw I gave him treat anytime he touched the cabinet instead of my hand he got jackpot he was doing good and was excited and out of no where he cowered rolled on his back then. I wasn't getting frustrated he was geting it, s if anything I was super excited. It just doesn't make since. Tricks are not important, to me it just seems like he really wants to try them. I just cant understand why he gets nervous when hes actually getting it


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Not an expert but maybe your dog is worried about extreme emotions either way? What about interacting calmly for a while?


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

We had been I haven't tried new tricks or anything for like 2 months only playing. It just doesn't make since when he IS getting what I am trying to teach. Then he randomally just shuts down. He was abused before I got him. I have been trying to built his confidence. He seems like he has been getting more so with the toys, but as soon as I try to do obedience or teach something new he is okay for a minute, then as I said he will start to cower and just go lay down with his ears back.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Can't get frustrated or mad, instead you need to learn a new way to train.

Clicker training is perfect for you situation but you need to read up to understand it then teach your dog. Tons of teeny treats, your dog is always right. Perfect!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-intro-clicker-training-perfect-puppies.html

How to Help Your Fearful Dog: Become the Crazy Dog Lady | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AElTVoIPlOw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

If he's only comfortable being trained for a minute, then only train him for a minute.

Hear me out here. You describe the cabinet training session..."every time" he touched your hand he got a reward, and "every time" he touched the cabinet he got the jackpot. How many times did you ask him to do that? How long was this training session? Obviously it was too long for Chief.

What I would have done is only expect him to do a new behavior once, maybe twice at the very most depending on how quickly he got it. He does what you want, you give him the jackpot, you're done. Then you guys go do something else and in a few hours or the next day or whatever, you can come back and try it again. Do the exact same thing.

I have a dog who did the exact same thing. She was never abused, but she would just shut down and freak out if I focused on her too long...so I just didn't focus on her too long. I broke everything down into the tiniest steps that she could get right away, then quit as soon as we got one good response. Eventually we were able to train for longer duration, but even so I have to keep it very short.

Really, though, for trick and obedience training, I don't like to train for more than 5 minutes at a time with any dog. Very short but relatively frequent training sessions tend to work better than longer ones.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

When I first got him I started clicker training him. I just found it difficult to always get the clicker when I wanted to train or be able to get the treats right after i clicked and I wasn't sure I was timing it right, so I quit with the clicker.

The cabinet thing we tried was probably 2 minutes at the most. I don't know how may times I had him do it, but it was only 2 minutes probably less before he freaked out. I want him to enjoy is at much as Smokey does.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

That was kind of my point...you don't know how many times, and you should have quit after the first time he got it right.  Or at least, that is what I would do. I meant for a dog who really likes training I would still keep it to about 5 minutes. For a dog who is scared, you might only be able to work for 30-60 seconds at a time at first.

He can probably learn to really enjoy this, but you're going to have to build up his confidence in baby steps. When you have a training session that ends in him cowering, he's not learning and he's obviously not having a good experience. If you keep it short enough that he doesn't have a chance to go over threshold, he'll be able to learn and he'll gain confidence and begin to think training is fun rather than scary.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

frillint1 said:


> When I first got him I started clicker training him. I just found it difficult to always get the clicker when I wanted to train or be able to get the treats right after i clicked and I wasn't sure I was timing it right, so I quit with the clicker.


I tend to decide to learn a new trading method if I know it will help my dog. Just read up and watch the videos and you will be able to clicker train, for your dog.

If you are late or early with the click, that's part of the genius of the method! If I click early, the dog gets a treat. If I click late, the dog gets a treat. So my dog keeps thinking they are brilliant and keep trying, and I just think that was/early/late and work on my timing. As long as my pup is still there trying to earn the treats then its all good.


If you have the treats right there, and the dog right there, then you will get the treat to your dog in time. That's why the clicker works actually. All the clicker is is a 'marker' that actually is a bridge between the behavior YOU want (a sit?) And the reward the dog wants/earned (cheese?). Initially to help the dog learn the method the time between the click/treat should be fairly quick so the dog learns to link the sound to their behavior and the reward. But later when training progresses the time can increase for all of us and the dog still understands and learns.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

RowdyDogs said:


> That was kind of my point...you don't know how many times, and you should have quit after the first time he got it right.  Or at least, that is what I would do. I meant for a dog who really likes training I would still keep it to about 5 minutes. For a dog who is scared, you might only be able to work for 30-60 seconds at a time at first.
> 
> He can probably learn to really enjoy this, but you're going to have to build up his confidence in baby steps. When you have a training session that ends in him cowering, he's not learning and he's obviously not having a good experience. If you keep it short enough that he doesn't have a chance to go over threshold, he'll be able to learn and he'll gain confidence and begin to think training is fun rather than scary.


That actually makes a lot of since and its probably my fault as I enjoy training and I am still used t Smokey he will go for an hour enthusiastically until he gets it. He works for the praise not food or toys. I thought I was slowing down with him. Didn't realize they should be that short.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I brought the clicker out since you mentioned it I forgot I had it. I researched and bought it before I even got him. Just a minute ago i brought it out he was excited, so I guess he remembered it I tossed the treat and clicked while he was looking away and when I clicked he looked at me and he got his treats he was excited the whole times i did it for about a minute since i wasn't asking him to do anything I was just clicking and treating. I guess that might be it I will just have to learn to work better with it and get a treat pouch instead of trying to hold them all like before. I just thought i had to be perfect at the clicking for him to understand the action I was trying to get him to do and I knew I wasn't getting the timing perfect, so I quit.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I tend to decide to learn a new trading method if I know it will help my dog. Just read up and watch the videos and you will be able to clicker train, for your dog.
> 
> If you are late or early with the click, that's part of the genius of the method! If I click early, the dog gets a treat. If I click late, the dog gets a treat. So my dog keeps thinking they are brilliant and keep trying, and I just think that was/early/late and work on my timing. As long as my pup is still there trying to earn the treats then its all good.
> 
> ...


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

frillint1 said:


> That actually makes a lot of since and its probably my fault as I enjoy training and I am still used t Smokey he will go for an hour enthusiastically until he gets it. He works for the praise not food or toys. I thought I was slowing down with him. Didn't realize they should be that short.


I think that learning to quit when you're ahead can actually be one of the hardest things to get as a trainer, so don't feel bad. It's really easy to do, because we look at training differently than the dog does.

Your goal should be to end every training session on a good note, and ideally with the dog wanting more. So that means that if Chief is starting to really get it and seems interested and excited, stop! You won't want to, because you're thinking, "Woohoo, he's finally getting it! Look how much he's enjoying it!" And he is...but then he'll lose focus or get overwhelmed and you wind up quitting when he's not really that into it.

If you quit when he's excited, then the next training session is going to make him think of that. He'll approach it from a happier standpoint--"Oh, I remember this! That was so much fun!"

If you quit when he's not excited but not cowering yet, at the next session he'll be like, "Oh, this. Okay." And he'll get into it, but you're starting from a lower level of interest so you have further to go to get him really engaged.

And if you quit when he's cowering (which at that point is the only option, of course), the next session will start with him unsure and scared, and you're basically starting over each time.

So that's the mindset you need to work on--end every session at a point that is going to set you up to start the next session in a good place! And remember, we're talking very short periods of time here right now.

If you do make a mistake and go too long, don't get upset about it either. Just try to learn from your mistake and remember that you have plenty of time to make up for it. Also, pay close attention to his body language when you work with him. I would be surprised if he really melts down out of nowhere--most likely, he is giving you some subtle cues that he is getting stressed out. They can be really difficult to see, but if you learn to read his body language really well, you can hopefully stop before he becomes so overwhelmed that he has to cower for a long time.

Also, I love clickers for fearful dogs like Chief. It mostly just takes practice to get the timing right.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

That makes perfect since while reading what you wrote I was like that's me. I get excited and want to keep going just a little more. Like I just did a bit before I read what you wrote I was just clicking and treating while he was laying down he was wagging his tail happy until I tried to get him to come closer to me to do a sit and he cowered and went to the living room.

Every time before I grab that clicker I am going to have to think baby steps. I figured before I quit the last time that I should keep going, because he was so excited to train, but I just gave up. He is a very smart dog. Your right it is so hard to quit while your ahead.

When I taught him bow he got it in like 10 minutes and was doing it for days without me asking so he could get his treat. Then once I was trying to reset him, because he did a down instead of a bow, so I moved and called him to me and did a bow which was the signal for him to bow and that's when he freaked. It's like if he doesn't get it the first time he gets upset.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You need to look at it from the dog's perspective. 
these tricks are just that to you, however those tricks are communication to the dog. The giving the paw is a juvenile action , used as a calming signal. The bow is a play gesture . He is not in his mind communicating play.
And then he feels your frustration 
and then he really really does not want to play with you, and goes in to avoidance. 
Do things with the dog that give him a opportunity to bond - walking together is a great one . Each time he is "with" you showing you a connection, looking at you , then you smile and give him the good boy. Less treats , more YOU. The dog may have had a shaky start and is wary , he doesn't have that security with you yet, may never have totally. You have to appreciate the dog for what he is , not for what you want him to become .


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Less treats , more YOU. The dog may have had a shaky start and is wary , he doesn't have that security with you yet, may never have totally. You have to appreciate the dog for what he is , not for what you want him to become .


What a wonderful way to put it, particularly the last sentence.  I'm all about the treats, but we should always remember that treats are just a tool, and it's really all about our relationship with the dog. All the treats in the world won't help much if that basic trust isn't there.

OP, I think you might really benefit from learning as much as you can about the way dogs think. The book _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson might really help you, if you haven't read it yet. Karen Pryor's stuff is also really good and can be a bit more focused on training specific behaviors.

I really think that once you establish a better understanding with this dog, the trust will grow. My GSD was similar when I first got him, and he's fantastic now. My Wooby heeler was even worse (you couldn't even look at her while speaking or she'd roll over and cry then go hide when I first got her), and now she knows all her basic commands and enjoys training--we're even doing some very basic nosework exercises! And I should note that she was 11 years old when I got her, so I'm guessing Chief is going to be a lot easier.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I hope so. He has gotten alot better the only thing he hasnt gotten better about is taking food off the table or tearing stuff up that had food in it. Like we did ginger bread houses and he tore up the cardboard box and it didn't have and food actually on it. Today he tore up an empty chip bag that wasnt thrown away by my boyfriends daughter. We always put the trash can up in the bedroom when we leave, but he always seems sometime to tear up a napkin something. He gets fed 4 cups a day, so he gets plenty of food.

I know he knows he nt supposed to. I left food on the table once went in the bedroom and cracked the door. He walked towards the table looked back at the door then as he was abut to take the food he looked at the door again then in midts mouth opening i opened the door an said ah ah ah. He does it with empty plates on the table to he wait until i leave and follows me half way then goes back to lick the plate and he peeks around the corner to see if I'm watching. He wont grab it if im there, but as soon as i leave its a bee line for it. How can I solve this food stealing and his tearing up stuff for no reason.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

That sounds like a great book. I think I will order it and after I read it I will have my boyfriend read it. Thanks! This is something that we can both use to help training better. He is a great dog, but is pretty stubborn. He follows me everywhere. I can't move on the couch without him flying up ready to follow me it drives me nuts sometimes tripping over them. I tell him to go lay down sometimes he does, but most of the time he will go in the direction I'm pointing then will make a circle and continue to follow he he does that a few times then will finally lay down then do a huge sigh then sometime get right back up after he lays down.

Its this book correct [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Clash-Revolutionary-Understanding-Relationship/dp/1888047054/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356141858&sr=1-1&keywords=culture+clash[/ame] I am going to order it right now as soon as I know its the right one.



RowdyDogs said:


> What a wonderful way to put it, particularly the last sentence.  I'm all about the treats, but we should always remember that treats are just a tool, and it's really all about our relationship with the dog. All the treats in the world won't help much if that basic trust isn't there.
> 
> OP, I think you might really benefit from learning as much as you can about the way dogs think. The book _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson might really help you, if you haven't read it yet. Karen Pryor's stuff is also really good and can be a bit more focused on training specific behaviors.
> 
> I really think that once you establish a better understanding with this dog, the trust will grow. My GSD was similar when I first got him, and he's fantastic now. My Wooby heeler was even worse (you couldn't even look at her while speaking or she'd roll over and cry then go hide when I first got her), and now she knows all her basic commands and enjoys training--we're even doing some very basic nosework exercises! And I should note that she was 11 years old when I got her, so I'm guessing Chief is going to be a lot easier.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Yes, that is the right book.  Go ahead and order it!

I don't think Chief is stubborn, just that you guys aren't communicating on the same level. I have met plenty of dogs who jump up every time I move, and it is a lack of confidence. Most likely, Chief knows you are safe, and he wants to be with you. His fear is that you're going to leave him, so he feels the need to be with you no matter what.

GSDs are also kind of "velcro" dogs, IME. They're bred to protect their herd and their family, so they always need to know where their charges are.  My Hector is always that way; I am pretty sure I have literally never been home and had him in the other room, except maybe when my boyfriend and I sleep separately (snoring LOL) and Hector stations himself halfway between us, where he can see the doorways of both the rooms we are in.  That's just to be expected with this breed, IMO.

But it sounds like he is maybe insecure and excessively clingy; establishing a routine and building a relationship will help. He may always want to be with you, but he shouldn't always need to be climbing on you and tripping you up! 

Also, "counter surfing" is hard to fix. Hector knows not to jump up and get trash, food on the table, etc. when we're there, but the reward is greater than any correction we can do when we're gone. We fix his tendency to jump up and eat food on the counter by management--locking trash cans, food on top of refrigerator or in the pantry, etc. Dogs are refreshingly honest and will almost always do what rewards them the most, and it's hard to compete with them jumping up and getting a loaf of bread (or whatever) when no one is around to correct them. 

I saw your post about nosework as well and sent you a PM, by the way. I think you and Chief have a lot of promise if you guys can get on the same page.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I ordered the book I am excited I don't typically read, so this will be the first in awhile. He is defiantly a Velcro dog. I am also curious Chief loves me and my boyfriend a lot we both feed him he will one day if I'm working and I do at night always and when I am home. When he hugs me standing up especially sitting down Chief growls at him. Ill say hush and he will starts doing a whining/groan. I guess I can see him being afraid I am going to leave he was locked up by himself most of his life. I guess it takes someone else saying stuff for me to realize and make since out of it

We try getting everything put up before we leave, every once in awhile he will get into something.

He is such a lover. When I first got him he didn't really much cuddle at all wasn't really sure what to do. He always flea bites me to its really weird. I was told that was a grooming thing.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

So, we just did a short clicker training session. I pretty much clicked for everything him sitting, laying down, pawing my leg, eye contact. I would just toss a treat no click to get him to stand then as he walked towards me I clicked and treated. He then did a play bow on his own and i clicked and treated for as long as he stayed then i tossed a treat no click then he turned around did the bow again on his own and I kept clicking and treating then I quit and he was still in the bow position then stood up and he was staring at me like why did you stop. I put the clicker and stuff away and he just kept looking at me.That was the first time in a LONG while that we did a session without him getting scared! I think I may have been making them to long in the past. What we just did was probably a minute at most. I guess I will have to do that more frequently!!!

I have a question though. Can I still praise him even though the clicker is the marker for yes you sometime good a treat is on the way. I feel silly just clicking and treating and not talking


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Good for you! It sounds like clicker training will really help. 

Absolutely still praise him when you use the clicker! Just don't talk while you press the clicker, but you can praise him right after.

Remember, the clicker isn't a replacement for praise or other rewards. It's basically just a way of saying, "that is _exactly_ what I want!" at the moment the dog does the behavior. The reward for the behavior is the same as if you weren't using the clicker.

Dogs live in the moment to a much greater extent than we do. When you take a second to praise/treat a behavior (which is impossible to avoid no matter how quick and good of a trainer you are), the dog has to figure out what you're rewarding. Let me give you an example with a very basic behavior, sit:

Without the clicker, you teach a dog to sit. His butt hits the floor, and you tell him he's good and give him a treat. Well, there's a lag of maybe half a second to a second there as you watch him sit (after all, you have to make sure he's actually doing what you want to reward--if he jumps right back up and you reward him then, you're rewarding him for standing) and process it and act. From your dog's perspective, you maybe rewarded him for the sit...but he's also looking at you, and maybe wagging his tail, and cocking his head, etc. You could be rewarding any one of those behaviors for all he knows. He has to think about it more and get it through several repetitions.

With the clicker, you click as soon as his butt hits the floor. It isn't a big deal if he doesn't stay there, because the click isn't a reward, it's a marker--when his butt hit the floor, you told him, "yes, that is what I want!" You can even still reward him, because he knows that the reward is associated with the click (if you've conditioned him right leading up to it). So things are a lot more clear to him.

Note that the reward is the same in either case; it's just that the clicker allows you to mark the specific behavior and be very clear to your dog about what you want.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I will certainly have to use it more often. I'm going to have to reorder that book apparently they didn't feel the need to let me know it was canceled right when I ordered it because they were out of stock. Sigh. Will have to find someone on there that actually has is then. Man I have been excited for a week for nothing lol


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

We were having some success, with clicker training I did it for 1 minutes, but I guess it was still to long just sitting on the floor not asking for any thing click treat click treat all the sudden he wouldn't take the treat then he crawled to my lap and just laid down. I reordered the book it should be here in a couple days

Today I wasn't doing training all I was doing was reaching for a treat to put inside the flaps of his everlasting treat ball which he loves and I reached for the bag in the cabinet and he cowered and went to the door shaking, so I ignored him and played with Smokey all high pitched voice playing with him on the ground on my back, but enticing Chief and he came over by himself all happy.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

How can I get Chief to lay down and stay while I eat. He is so enticed by the smell he comes right up to me and sniffs right by my plate. I say go lay down and he will look at me and streach his neck out farther to get to it. The only way he will lay down is if i raise my voice a bit to get him to go. I don't want to have to raise my voice and scare him as he is scared to train and I don't want to scare him at all. How can I use positive reinforcement to not beg. I don't want to have to lock him out of the room and be away from the family.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

There are a couple of ways to do it depending on exactly what you want him to do. Basically, no matter what you're going to be teaching him a command, and then you eating is just a distraction. So if you want him to lay in a specific spot while you eat, get him really good at a down stay away from food, then put him in it and eat a snack (at first try to use ones that don't smell that amazing--crackers instead of a hot dog, for example ). If he gets up, just return him to his down stay. Start for short periods at first and gradually extend it to the length of meal times.

If you just want him to quit being pushy (which is what I like), I just teach a firm "leave it" command. My dogs might still be sitting near me, but I don't mind that as long as they're not sniffing at my food or staring at me.

If you've already taught him a "go lay down" command and he just ignores it when you eat, I'd just back up a bit and strengthen that in less distracting situations, then practice it during short, boring snacks (sit down with a couple of crackers, for example), and gradually increase from there. If you haven't taught a strong "go lay down," then that's probably most of your problem.

Basically, try to change your way of thinking from, "How do I stop him from doing this?" to "What do I want him to do instead?" and teach the latter. Dogs learn better when they're given firm guidelines of what to do, rather than having to try to figure it out for themselves and getting corrected for making mistakes.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Hes not really firm at anything since I cant train to our full extent. I don't care where he lays I just want him to lay away from me like you. Today I took him outside and tried to do a little training since he always gets scared inside I thought I would try outside even thought its highly distracting for him. I got a hoola-hoop and just had him walking through it and he did it I then moved it from the ground a little. He got a little stressed at first, so I quit and we walked around the yard then tried again. He was doing i and seemed happy doing it. I could still tell he was a little nervous, but still did it. Inside he would have given up, then I did a few sits, down and speaking. He only seemed a little nervous the whole time and seemed pretty proud of himself when we were done. I was using warmed up turkey. We came in the house and he sat with me on the couch relaxed and he kept hitting me with his paw and licking my arm. The training was 5 minutes at most. We did a few high jumping to and he loves that.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

The first thing I taught my dog was to be DOWN while I eat at the table, breakfast, lunch, cofee break, dinner, I don't care what it is. Obviously it had to be done with him leashed; ask for a down, and I stepped on the leash for the entire meal. If he gets up, just ignore, he will correct himself. Later you can lose the leash, and if he gets up, you get up and place him back down, without a word. Maybe a pat on the head.

What I also did was eat before he did, so the moment you finish, go and serve him his meal. That way he gets the idea down at the table = meal coming.

Now whenever I sit down at pretty much any table, he goes to an automatic down. One of the funnier things to see, he'll come across the house to me sitting at the kitchen table and lay down, even if there is no food anywhere to be smelt.

There is some good information in this thread by people who have much much more experience than me. But I thought I would share my dinner etiquette. This may sound repetitive, but there are plenty of articles on positive reinforcement. For now, ignore and ignore some more, every single bad thing he does and focus only on the good. Allow him to realize what to do. Allow him to correct himself (see above) and see that the correction means no praise from you, rather than meaning something totally negative. In fact, that is what I did for the first 2 months after I yelled at my dog a few times ( I felt terrible ) once your dog learns the command PERFECTLY, start incorporating a few corrections to see how he takes it.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I got a treat bag today, so hopefully that will make training easier for us. I am going to make my Own agility course for the back yard for fun and see how he does with a few items. Then will add other stuff if he does good. He seems to do wayyyy better with outside obedience and gives me some attention in public IF I have a treat in my hand, so I am thinking I need to desensitize him training inside as he opens up outside. I have no clue how to do that though.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Finally got my book today The Culture Clash and will begin reading it.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

frillint1 said:


> Hes not really firm at anything since I cant train to our full extent. I don't care where he lays I just want him to lay away from me like you.


Sorry, I was thinking that he was solid with basic obedience and it was just more advanced stuff that was scaring him.  Since he isn't great at basic stuff yet, be sure you're not introducing too much too soon--having some variety is good to keep your dog interested, but repetition and consistency can be really useful in building the confidence of a fearful dog. Really mastering an easy command like "sit" or "down" might help him gain more confidence than learning to clear an agility jump, for example.

It's just like with people. Have you ever had a class in school where you struggle with everything, and it seems like things are going too fast and you're always having to learn something new even though you didn't ever really understand the last lesson? It's really stressful and rocks your confidence, or it was for me! On the other hand, if you're given the time you need to master even the most basic lessons, it can be a huge boost in confidence because you've been successful and you know you'll be able to figure out challenges in the future.

I'd still just firmly but gently correct him and tell him to lay down every time he gets too close, preferably with some dedicated training sessions with boring snacks (for you, his treats should still be very tasty!) like I suggested. Depending on how rude he is you might want to go ahead and crate him during your meals for the time being, just until you guys get a bit more confidence in training. Think of it as a temporary thing, not something you'll have to do forever.

Hope you enjoy The Culture Clash! I think it's one of the easiest-to-read (both in clarity and in entertainment) but still very thorough and useful training books I've ever read. Once you've read that, I recommend Karen Pryor as another accessible and informative positive trainer. She also has a some good information on her website, Karen Pryor Clicker Training | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training that you might want to check out. It's of course geared towards selling stuff, but you don't need all that--your clicker and treat bag should be plenty--and it has some good basic articles.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I will be starting it right now. He knows sit, down, stay and speak. He just isn't super solid at them. Sometimes I say sit and he speaks its usually when hes super excited to go outside. As I always make him sit before he goes out or comes in. He does amazing at sit, down and especially stay when it comes to his dinner I have him out of the kitchen he has to be behind the "line" if he crosses I stop what I am doing and step toward him making him back up then I put his food down and tell him down and have him wait until I say "yes" he does terrific at this and is prompt with his down and stays amazingly while he drools on the floor waiting on my okay. 

That does make since that's exactly how I was in school its just that he is so perfet at dinner, but okay other times.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I am beginning to understand them more, dogs that is. I haven't finished it yet. There are times like just now that It dont make any since. I am sitting on the floor eating chips and salsa Chief comes over and sits down I get a chip and hand it to him and he lays down turns his head away from me and wont take the chip and he is ALL about food never ever turns it down. I tell him its okay and he crawls onto my lap shaking. I pet him say its okay and I yawn he licks his lips then I hand him another chip and he eats it fine and is all happy now. I mean I don't understand I have learned alot about my body language and facial expressions, but I didn't do anything except hand him food I didn't even ask for anything.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Without seeing it, I couldn't really tell you what happened there.

However, I will point out that your last posts were about getting him to stop begging for treats when you're eating...if that's a problem, you probably shouldn't be offering him bites of your food right now! I'm terrible about giving my dogs treats like that, but whenever I get a new dog in who begs, I stop for a time, until he learns the rules (which is: dogs are only allowed to come over and watch me eat if I call them over). You're giving him mixed messages if you don't want him to come and stare at you while you eat, but also reward him for coming over and begging.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

One thing that has really helped Jaeger to leave us alone while we are eating is that my other dogs do this well, especially my alpha female, who knows to not even LOOK at my food while I am eating. He got the idea pretty quickly that the dogs who don't beg sometimes get a scrap or two once we take the plates to the kitchen. 

Stare at the food or beg = no food
Lie down and ignore the food = people food treat after the big dog is done eating.

He picked that up pretty fast.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

We are still having problems on training, but I have kind of laied off it again for a bit and just playing with him and praising him when he comes to me by himself, because while in the house if I call him he walks to me cowering. Outside he runs to me jumping and excited. He has not submissive peed in a long time.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

We are finally getting somewhere he has gotten his moments where he's gotten scared, but no peeing and he's coming back to me. It will be a long battle, but we can do it.

On a happy note I orders Chief a collar from Pikoda I can't wait to receive it.


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