# Top stud dogs



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I will preface this thread by saying that I am not looking to breed at all, so 2020 is coming to a close. Who do you consider the top stud dogs of the last year or 2? Who’s producing the best? Who’s stamping their progeny and with what? Also, note, yes, mother lines are important but that is not what this thread is about. Other than that, I look forward to having an open discussion. Some dogs that come to mind that I’ve seen breedings out of:

Pepper von kap karthago
Bordy blendy
O litter form heidhof
Wildo walshagen 
Ox iveron
Vegas von der burg hinte
Zoob z jirkova dvora
Knox tollhaus
Knox eisernen kreuz

Feel free to add. 

Also, which up and coming dogs are you keeping and eye on that you think will be important for the breed in the future. Here in the states, I don’t know what’s in Germany, but I really like the way 2 warkonhaus dogs are developing. 


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Producing the best of what?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Producing the best of what?


Whatever you’d like. It’s open ended purposely. 


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

These are mainly top IGP dogs. They are likely to produce some top sport dogs if they are producers and bred to the “right” bitch. Working GSD’s suitable for military and police work typically are out of dogs most people never hear of. So regarding the future of the breed, you have to look at sport vs. work. You also have to consider that IGP is very much about training for a choreographed performance and training by very skilled trainers can mask genetic shortcomings. The other side of the coin is that police dogs deal with unpredictable, life and death situations often with not the best training. So which type of dog is for the betterment of the breed?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ox has produced some stellar police dogs. He's throwing some very serious dogs. 
Bordy is all prey and very social (told personally to me by someone who actually knows the dog)
O litter Heidhof - have a daughter. There are strong similarities in at least one of the females back to Ouzo's mother Ombra in both looks, personality and working quality. 
Walshagen - I love so much of what Agnes breeds. 

You should look at Cliff vom Schlossee is producing. Natural aggression, high possession, super stable.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Ox has produced some stellar police dogs. He's throwing some very serious dogs.
> Bordy is all prey and very social (told personally to me by someone who actually knows the dog)
> O litter Heidhof - have a daughter. There are strong similarities in at least one of the females back to Ouzo's mother Ombra in both looks, personality and working quality.
> Walshagen - I love so much of what Agnes breeds.
> ...


Isnt bordy being used in combo with the o litter to increase their size? I thought I saw a breeding somewhere. Besides the fact that it would likely produce nice drives I figured the size would be a plus. 

I’ve been told “cliff doesn’t produce” which I’m inclined to disagree with. I’ve also heard people say that about iron but seger is proof that he does. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

The 2 warkonhaus dogs I really like are hector and finnick. I’m sure there’s other really nice ones but those are the males that have caught my eye. 

@Chip something tells me hector would do just fine as a LE dog but I do understand what you’re saying about there being unknown studs and what not in that area of the working dog world. 

I agree with the walshagen dogs being really really nice. Another dog I saw that I liked was a gazze son out of one of bill kulla’s litters. Tons of fight in that dog. I don’t know who the dam was though


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I have a knox vom eisernen kreuz/umsa vom geistwasser son out of the C litter at kulla dogs. Following.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Bill and Jen just purchased Knox!


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## ChickiefromTN (Jun 16, 2020)

I have a Zoob daughter coming home next week and I know another young Zoob daughter. Curious about anyone else's experience with them.

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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I have a knox vom eisernen kreuz/umsa vom geistwasser son out of the C litter at kulla dogs. Following.


How do you like the dog? Is it a just pet or are you training towards something


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> The 2 warkonhaus dogs I really like are hector and finnick. I’m sure there’s other really nice ones but those are the males that have caught my eye.


Huh...well....good to know...


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Huh...well....good to know...


We’re just talking males here. I didn’t forget about the little rocket hah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> Isnt bordy being used in combo with the o litter to increase their size? I thought I saw a breeding somewhere. Besides the fact that it would likely produce nice drives I figured the size would be a plus.
> 
> I’ve been told “cliff doesn’t produce” which I’m inclined to disagree with. I’ve also heard people say that about iron but seger is proof that he does.
> 
> ...


No idea. I only know what I was told first hand about him. 

All the yappers say a dog doesn't produce. LOL An Iron son went to the WUSV a couple of years ago. Had progeny at Nats. many in SAR. Maybe they aren't breeding to the right females. Or maybe the dogs aren't getting a lot of breedings. I like the Cliff progeny I've seen so far.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

All breedings are experiments.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Champ vom Ehrendorfer Land is promising.
He has two litters on the ground. One is just over a year and the other one is about 15 weeks. He was collected for a few litters in Australia too.

Pepper von Cap Karthago has super nice progeny. Clear and stable dogs which attribute to his mother line.

Love Jax pocket rocket. She is super nice. Had the pleasure to watch her a good number of times. She is a little spitfire in protection 😍

Cody Blendy and Urek vom Sitz von der Hose. I have seen progeny out of Orry that is super. Stable, fun, awesome hunt.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Tikkie said:


> Champ vom Ehrendorfer Land is very promising.
> He has two litters on the ground. One is just over a year now and the other one is about 15 weeks now and was collected for a few litters in Australia.
> 
> Pepper von Cap Karthago has super nice progeny. I saw some nice ones.
> ...


Referring to champ

I enjoy following his videos on Facebook. I’m very interested to see his protection performances. I’m sure they’ll show power and speed. Definitely a powerful, highly driven dog that most prob do not know about....not to mention I love B&T working line dogs haha 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Nscullin. Urek is Seger's full sibling.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

I adore that bloodline. You have such a wide variety of dogs from top level, extremely hard dogs to super fun dogs people can get into sport with and do well.

I honestly believe Iron did not get the recognition he should have gotten when he won the world championships and it is a shame.

Its not that he doesnt/didnt produce. You cant take your subpar female to a good male and hope the male will compensate for all the shortcomings.

As for Champ, he does have a daughter that is promising. I hear she is a little on the extreme side and that they kept 6 out of 8 puppies on the litter with Bruna.

Cody Blendy is my next runner up after that. I want to see more out of him. What I have seen so far is top temperament, balance but also super super drives and nice structure.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

This is a post from a few months ago but I will add one very important stud in America : Irck de la Hutte du Berger.

I've bred to him and my litter is currently 7 months. Talked to a few breeders who bred to him as well. He produces early workers with intense drives.

I have one pup that I'm raising and couldn't be happier. Early worker and intense drives as expected. Strong environmentals. Social but neutral as well. He's just a natural at everything. He loved the ball first time I played with one. VERY high prey and possession for sleeve or ball. Good with handler. Absolutely super hunt drive. He searches with intensity and loves it!! He's gonna find the ball independently, no matter if its hard to reach or not. Very good food drive.

Did a few sessions of bite work with him. He was just into it first time we tried. My decoy mentionned on 2 different occasions that he bites really hard.

Out in public, he can be calm when needed.

Irck is a stud dog that should be considered more by breeders in America.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

My experience with Cody Blendy progeny has been relatively good. Lots of prey, social and confident. I raised a female for a short while but ultimately didn't keep (wrong time). She's with a friend and I get to see updates. Really liking what I'm seeing with her and her brothers (we have 2 in our club).

Ox Iveron progeny I'm liking too.



ChickiefromTN said:


> I have a Zoob daughter coming home next week and I know another young Zoob daughter. Curious about anyone else's experience with them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


The one I know is social around other dogs and people, okay food drive and good prey. I haven't seen her worked in bitework though, but I've played around with shaping with her for obedience. She is pushed around a bit by some of the other dogs and I'm not sure if it's just maturity or if she's actually that forgiving. She has a bit of resource guarding I'm not fond of (but she isn't mine) when she's in a crate/kennel with food. She has mouthed my hand when locking the kennel after handing her her bowl of food too. No marks but caught me by surprise. What are you seeing with your girl?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A friend of mine had a Zoob son....in AZ.....as he matured, he started coming up the leash at him. He also resource guarded and went after a child when he had a toy....a child he was raised with. She went to pet him and luckily he was tethered. The dog was rehomed to a LEO at less than a year old, which was a much better fit than a family dog. I had quite a dialog with the owner of Zoob after that....he stated that absolutely this was not a sire to produce a live with the family dog, but an excellent PP/estate protection dog. The owner attended regular training with the importer, and actually had super gorgeous OB on the dog....it was NOT a lack of training, poor training or treatment - it was character, pure and simple.

Many of these males produce character that is not being acknowledged here. People wanting family dogs, beginner level dogs need to be aware that winning, high scores, etc, when the dog is with a very experienced handler does not make the "best" prospect for a family or even a beginner. Without stopping and looking back - I don't know if there is one on there I would recommend.

As far as "better for the breed"????? The breed is more than the sport. The dogs being bred for the sport are getting as extreme in some aspects as the ASL is in angulation, and the Euro show line is in bulk, odd backs and lack of character/ability. The working lines are getting extreme - and when the pendulum swings too high in hectic/prey, it is being pushed into too high in reactive/screw you aggression.....that is NOT a balanced temperament.

There are only a few that I haven't really researched - some I have seen firsthand production, some I have had extensive familiarity with their families. 

What everyone needs to think about is that many people who are not sport oriented read this board. Saying a dog who has put his handler in hospital several times is "good" for the breed, a sucessful sire etc should be accompanied by statements of caution. I have had too many conversations with tearful young owners who thought they were getting a great dog because of these kinds of recommendations who end up wiht a huge liability, someone hurt and a dog at the vet for a final visit. This goes back even 10 years ago.....

But then - I have always marched to a different drummer!

Lee


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Hexenrudel said:


> This is a post from a few months ago but I will add one very important stud in America : Irck de la Hutte du Berger.
> 
> I've bred to him and my litter is currently 7 months. Talked to a few breeders who bred to him as well. He produces early workers with intense drives.
> 
> ...


That's good to hear. I think Irck is a dog that has a lot to offer.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@wolfstraum Lee you make an excellent point that is hard to argue with. The reason why these dogs are recommended I think it’s because the “family dog” breeders produce zero drive dogs with weak nerves that need careful upbringing which would require a lot of skill as well. These dogs that bred for pet temperament make terrible pets so ppl look for stronger dogs.

I’ve seen that “oh no” face on a trainer when I brought my then 9 mnth old covid puppy to a class for the very first time, she embraced herself for shepherd issues like reactivity, nervousness, barking... Well, she was pleasantly surprised. Neutral, engaged, motivated, happy, enters a room and owns the place personality, typical working line that can excel even in a pet manners class 

It’s very very hard to find a balanced dog.


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## ChickiefromTN (Jun 16, 2020)

Katsugsd said:


> My experience with Cody Blendy progeny has been relatively good. Lots of prey, social and confident. I raised a female for a short while but ultimately didn't keep (wrong time). She's with a friend and I get to see updates. Really liking what I'm seeing with her and her brothers (we have 2 in our club).
> 
> Ox Iveron progeny I'm liking too.
> 
> ...


My girl is 5 months old now. She is a social butterfly, loves people, and is neutral to dogs. She has a very strong prey drive and is extremely confident. She takes everything in stride and has strong nerves. We haven't had any resource guarding issues and we have 2 other dogs. Her breeder has the dam of this litter and says she is very social also. We started weekly training around a month ago with a group that trains WDA and KNPV. She is my first "sport" experience. The trainers and decoys all have said dozens of times how much they really love her. They love her build and conformation, her drives, and her sociability. I am definitely the weak link of the team, lol! She is a snuggle bug at the house and seeks out people interaction. Her breeder also has a ZOOB daughter that is a year old from a different dam. She is her young daughters dog and is being trained as a service dog. She has been doing very well. One of the males from my girls litter went to an experienced IGP handler and the last update I had on him was that she was very happy with him. I've been able to keep track of one other female pup from the litter who is doing very well as a family pet with one other GSD in the house. Physically my girl is the spitting image of her sire ZOOB and not at all physically like her dam. I'm excited to watch her mature and grow and to see how far I can take her with her training. Pics just because!

Edit to add that she has been the easiest puppy by far of the four I've raised. I don't know if that's totally her nature or partially due to my increase in experience. 























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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think it’s always good to understand the perspective of people your talking to and what they want in a dog. There are people I train with that love Cion and think he’s some super dog. Their so so on Bear. There are people that see my dogs out in everyday life that adore Bear and think he’s the perfect dog. They think Cion is a nightmare to deal with.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sometimes people do not know what they see. Everyone loves my dog because he has a cute face, I guess, from our local police k9 handlers to random passerbys to neighbors with small kids. I think he’s a nightmare myself lol , can’t wait for him to mature. He’s my nightmare though, love him 

Love to read about the current top studs and your experience with their progeny, interesting and important to know!


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

wolfstraum said:


> A friend of mine had a Zoob son....in AZ.....as he matured, he started coming up the leash at him. He also resource guarded and went after a child when he had a toy....a child he was raised with. She went to pet him and luckily he was tethered. The dog was rehomed to a LEO at less than a year old, which was a much better fit than a family dog. I had quite a dialog with the owner of Zoob after that....he stated that absolutely this was not a sire to produce a live with the family dog, but an excellent PP/estate protection dog. The owner attended regular training with the importer, and actually had super gorgeous OB on the dog....it was NOT a lack of training, poor training or treatment - it was character, pure and simple.


Not trying to argue with you here, just hoping to learn more as I know you are very experienced. When you say it was his character, was this dominant/social aggression ?




wolfstraum said:


> The working lines are getting extreme - and when the pendulum swings too high in hectic/prey, it is being pushed into too high in reactive/screw you aggression.....that is NOT a balanced temperament.


I know you Cliff, Carmen and a few other very experienced breeders talk about balance. This "screw you aggression" you speak of, is this the result of nerves being too thin for the drives?

I am guessing you are not talking about dominant/social aggression? 

Would redirected handler aggression fit into what you are talking about?




wolfstraum said:


> Saying a dog who has put his handler in hospital several times is "good" for the breed, a sucessful sire etc should be accompanied by statements of caution.


Was this dog you are talking about raised as a puppy by this handler?

Do you mean the dog did an outright attack on the handler? 

Was the aggression in this case, dominant aggression?


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

wolfstraum said:


> A friend of mine had a Zoob son....in AZ.....as he matured, he started coming up the leash at him. He also resource guarded and went after a child when he had a toy....a child he was raised with. She went to pet him and luckily he was tethered. The dog was rehomed to a LEO at less than a year old, which was a much better fit than a family dog. I had quite a dialog with the owner of Zoob after that....he stated that absolutely this was not a sire to produce a live with the family dog, but an excellent PP/estate protection dog. The owner attended regular training with the importer, and actually had super gorgeous OB on the dog....it was NOT a lack of training, poor training or treatment - it was character, pure and simple.
> 
> Many of these males produce character that is not being acknowledged here. People wanting family dogs, beginner level dogs need to be aware that winning, high scores, etc, when the dog is with a very experienced handler does not make the "best" prospect for a family or even a beginner. Without stopping and looking back - I don't know if there is one on there I would recommend.
> 
> ...


Interesting to hear about another Zoob progeny with similar traits. I've heard he is a more serious dog. I do agree about having a "statement of caution" and I do apologise for not adding one.

The only two I'm comfortable recommending are Cody and Ox because of the litters I've seen first hand go to both sport/working homes and active pet homes. I could see the wrong female adding issues (the first Cody litter I know personally was with my boy's dam - better "off switch" than the second that I raised a puppy from).

I'm seeing more and more malinois-esque GSDs - unsure if that's what you're referring to. Lots of redirection/frustration towards handlers, reactive prey/aggression, inability to settle.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

It’s very interesting to hear about zoob. It seems he’s been getting bred a lot. Other pet homes here have had issues with dogs heavier in czech/ddr lines. Seems like the same is going on with some of the zoob progeny? Maybe not really sport dogs either? 


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