# Red Sable Shepherd



## btcooper88

I have a beautiful male Red Sable. Does anyone else have one? I have only ever seen mine besides for what I have Googled.


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## Wolfgeist

Can you show us photographs?


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## GsdLoverr729

I agree with Wild Wolf... I would love to see pics!


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## btcooper88

here he is


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## Shade

Wow, gorgeous :wub:


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## btcooper88

a couple more


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## GsdLoverr729

What a handsome boy!!! My girl is a black/tan, but I did see a male at the dog park who resembles yours. His name was Asmodeus.


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## Stosh

The breeder I got Stosh from has a red sable male. It's the only one I've ever seen in person.


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## btcooper88

People are always confused when they see him because he looks like a shepherd but is red! Gets frustrating sometimes. lol.


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## Sunflowers

Wow, he is stunning. Looks like a fox. Welcome to the forum.


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## btcooper88

Thanks


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## btcooper88

hes very smart.


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## gagsd

I saw one very similar. The owner was German and her sister was a breeder in Germany. The pup was sent here to the States because her coloring was not "proper." 
Gorgeous!


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## btcooper88

Ive had people try and tell me my dog is not a GSD because he is that color. I think he is wonderful. He came from a breeder for cheaper because they didnt think he was up to their "standards". My vet still writes that he is a shepherd cross when i have told them numerous times he is a pure breed. oh well i guess. lol. i love him no matter what some people think!


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## bocron

I don't think there is any such thing as a red sable. It looks to me like you have a faded black and red (should be a saddle back, but the black pigment is faded or missing). 
The color is interesting to be sure .


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## GsdLoverr729

Kerstone Shepherds - GSD Patterns
This site has red sable listed as a color, and I've seen it posted as a reference multiple times. Of course, I don't know how accurate that is  
Regardless, that's one handsome guy.


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## robk

What makes this dog a sable? Are his hairs banded? He is very beautiful but not sure about the sable part.


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## btcooper88

When i researched it i found a site that had a shepherd that looked just like him and they had said he was a red sable. Thats why i assumed that would be the color category to put him under since he doesnt look like anything else. lol.


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## GsdLoverr729

BT- Is the site I posted the one you found? LOL!


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## btcooper88

haha im not sure i just looked again and it brought me back to this sight of someone who had a GSD that actually looked just like my boy and they said he was a east german Red Sable. So there must be a few people out there who are aware of red sables!


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## btcooper88

OHhhhh yes that was the site! that bottom red sable is just how my jack looked as a pup. almost the exact same!


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## Mrs.K

robk said:


> What makes this dog a sable? Are his hairs banded? He is very beautiful but not sure about the sable part.


I was thinking the same thing. Gorgeous dog but I don't really see the sable.


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## GsdLoverr729

Hmmm... Look closely at his fur. If he truly is sable, each strand should be banded (that is, have multiple different colors on it- or at least a different color tip tan root). Like the picture I'm attaching.


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## Muskeg

I don't see the sable. Sable means the hairs are tipped with black (bicolor hairs indivudally). I have a red sable malinois with a longer coat and you can really see the black tipping. 

Doesn't matter- he's a beautiful color regardless.


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## btcooper88

Yes when i do that his hair is completely white coming out of his skin and then turns red as it goes up. If i cant say hes a red sable then i guess i will be going around saying just red. lol.


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## GsdLoverr729

Hmmm... Could you post a pic of that? I would be very interested to see it!!!!

More knowledgeable members- Is it possible he is simply a diluted sable, rather than just having a diluted saddle? :3


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## hotrod27

Love the color. What a beautiful GSD!


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## msvette2u

Hm...a white with red fur tips??


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## robk

He may be a sable. It's just really hard to see it in the photos. Either way, you have a beautiful dog and have every right to be proud of him!


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## Freestep

Hopefully someone will be able to come along and post the specifics of coat color genetics, but I'm not sure what this particular type of color is called in GSDs. I seem to remember that it is a different gene than sable but I could be wrong... but this is not a common color in GSDs and it must be recessive. Sable is dominant, so I don't think it is sable.

What color/pattern were the parents?


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## btcooper88

thanks everyone! i love him no matter what color he is i just would like to figure it out so i can tell people when they ask! lol


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## btcooper88

both of his parents were black and tan.... so maybe they both had a ressive gene that made his this color.


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## Freestep

btcooper88 said:


> both of his parents were black and tan.... so maybe they both had a ressive gene that made his this color.


Yes. If both parents were black and tan, then this is not sable. But I am not sure what to call it.


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## GsdLoverr729

Freestep said:


> Yes. If both parents were black and tan, then this is not sable. *But I am not sure what to call it*.


 Agreed!


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## btcooper88

haha i guess he is just a catagory all on his own! "Ginger Color" lol!


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## robk

Sable is dominant. If he is a sable one of his parents must have been a patterned sable. The picture you posted of the close up does look like sable. I have seen this color before also. It was called a cinnamon. :shrug:


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## btcooper88

when i look threw his fur it is 80% red 15% white and then there is about 5% black hair scattered threw out his fur. little bit of black in his tail also. This picture i took of him today and he will be 2 years old in december so i am assuming his fur is done changing color...


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## GsdLoverr729

He may not be up to breed standard, but I find his color quite fascinating, beautiful and in a strange way appealing.


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## Loneforce

Tell them hes an overgrown *chihuahua* that will make a conversation piece


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## btcooper88

lol! so funny! thanks so much! i love sharing him with others that appreicate him! hes different thats for sure but i wouldnt change it for a second


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## GatorDog

Super handsome! Some people call Aiden a red sable, but I think he's more tan. I just call him a sable lol.


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## btcooper88

hes beautiful!


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## Sunflowers

What's his name? How old is he?


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## Catu

This is a very interesting topic and we all can learn a lot from your dog! I was on the verge too about if he is really a sable or if he is a black and tan with a very faded saddle, and the information about none of his parent being a sable was very useful, thanks for that. I had seen the web posted before and to be honest, didn't trust the content entirely to make a guess based on it, but with the pictures of the coat you also helped me a lot to understand more of our breed.

This is what I think when I hear of a red sable:









And I agree, yours should be called a Ginger GSD :thumbup: and a great looking one.


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## BowWowMeow

Rafi's coat is red sable (he is red and has banded hairs) but he is not a gsd:


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## Xeph

If both parents were black and tan, then it is impossible for your dog to be sable.

That said, if the dog IS sable, it makes me think of the clear sables that exist in Papillons and Shelties.


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## Freestep

What is the color called in Malinois?


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## JPF

Enzo is a patterned red sable. 1.5 years old


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## Konotashi

Gorgeous dog, but I don't really see that he's sable at all. 

Maybe fawn. 

When I hear red sable, I think of a sable with deep red pigment - not a dog that's all red and has just a mask.

Here's a fawn. 
Characterized basically by lack of patterns on the body, but has a mask. Much like the fawn colors in pugs, Great Danes, mastiffs, etc.

Fawn GSD


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## carmspack

*red sable german shepherd*



btcooper88 said:


> a couple more


Good looking dog no matter what.

Would not call him a red sable , having a few of them myself - Simon and daughter Fancy whose red glows , like "Enzo". Catu gives a very beautiful example of a red sable.

Can't be a sable if both parents are black and tan.
Would love to see the pedigree of this dog.

So here are some options . Colour paling . 
Look to this picture . In the first there is some white shading at the very tips of the ears .
Second picture shows white on feet , colour gets "bright" . One nail black, others are white .

or -- baring the possibility of a problem in the sire being the sire of this pup , could be some sort of throw back to a regional dog that was part of the make up of the breed GSD .

von Stephanitz frequently resorted to incorporating regional working herding dogs into the bloodlines to help correct problems with temperament. He went to herding dams and this may be shown as UNKNOWN which does not mean that they were anonymous or accidental . They knew who or what and why , but that is back in the day of PRIVATE record keeping , not PUBLIC as we have now with AKC, CanKC, SV , or the Belgian and other registries. 
One of the regional true working herding types was the Harzer Fuchs , now under the umbrella of Alt Deutsche hute hund 

so look at this Der Harzer Fuchs

(look at your dogs tail)

then this 



 
Malinois are sable , but it is not the same genetics as GSD . Sable in translation means "sand"
and that is what they are sand colour
In German the GSD is grau -- grey or schwarz braun , black and tan , or schwarz black 


Carmen


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## BlackthornGSD

I think that the term "fawn" would be correct. It's a pattern on the agouti allele and it's often called "gold sable" in GSDs. It's not a common color in GSDs, but I don't think it's technically considered a fault, either. It's just generally not selected for so it is very uncommon in the breed.

If both parents were black/tan, then the fawn color must be recessive to tanpoint/saddle.

You can also see a dog this color--or almost this color--in cases where there is extreme fading of the saddle. But in that case, the dog would have been black/tan as a pup, getting gold as the dog matures.

Agouti and its Interactions in Dogs


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## Freestep

That's a good site that Christine posted, and I agree "Fawn" would probably be most correct in this case. Even though the color is referred to as "clear sable" with collies and others, it is not the same gene as GSD "sable". Confusing enough? 

Agouti and its Interactions in Dogs

"Another allele, *ay*, has been postulated by Little to explain fawn Whippets, Great Danes, and Pugs which are yellow in pigmentation over all of their body or if masked, most of the body. Latte, the Great Dane, illustrates fawn without mask and Pansy, the Pug, shows it with mask. In some breeds such as Basenjis, Dachshunds, and French Bulldogs there may be dogs that are "clear red" with the genotype "e/e" and others that are "fawn" ayay. Fawn (ay) is considered dominant to black-and-tan (at) and the wild type allele (aw)."


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## vomlittlehaus

bocron said:


> I don't think there is any such thing as a red sable. It looks to me like you have a faded black and red (should be a saddle back, but the black pigment is faded or missing).
> The color is interesting to be sure .


I think we are using 'red' and 'liver' interchangeably. Red is something that does exist, I see more of it in the West German Show Lines. I have seen in person a liver sable pup. Some of you may know Jody Potter, showed up in one of her litters last year. His name is Pi, and I will try to get a picture and post in this thread.

I have seen several pictures of liver saddle patterns, but never a liver sable pattern.

I dont think this is even liver colored, looks lighter than that to me, and the face has dark pigment. Very different.


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## vomlittlehaus

*liver sable*

Found them:


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## Konotashi

I don't think I saw anyone say liver? Liver would be lack of any and all black pigment, and turned to brown. Since the nose leather, lips, and eye rims on the dog this thread was started for are black, he can't be a liver. 

Meanwhile, I'm going to go die of how adorable that little liver pup is.


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## SamanthaBrynn

Your boy is handsome! <3


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## btcooper88

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. yes i am starting to think that maybe he is a fawn. He has been the same color sense he was a pup i have a album of pictures of him on my page a few are when he was a puppy. The only color change in him was his red got a bit darker as he got older.


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## Castlemaid

Just as an aside: Thanks for that video, Carmen, gorgeous dogs. And the video made me laugh out loud because that is _exactly_ how Gryff and Keeta play all the time. (Gryff would be the dog that was digging in the snow on the dog bed, then chasing Keeta away, then challenging her to chase him).


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## lorihd

beautiful boy, love his fawn coat


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## selzer

Now I thought the dog was a black and red, but the saddle is missing. I don't have the book with me, but I think the saddle is a separate gene which determines how much of a saddle/blanket the dog will have.

My little sister's babysitter had one, very red no saddle about thirty years ago. Loved that dog. Cubby. 

I suppose it could be a sable if one of the parents was a patterned sable. Sometimes people do mess that up, they think the dog is a black and tan, and list it as such, but it is a sable. 

I guess I always thought that with sable the red would be banded with black.


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## Lucky Paw

i just had my dog tied to a red sable female i cant wait for the pups, by the way she is imported from hungary


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## msvette2u

Huh. He's 10mos. old??


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## bocron

dawnandjr said:


> I think we are using 'red' and 'liver' interchangeably. Red is something that does exist, I see more of it in the West German Show Lines. I have seen in person a liver sable pup. Some of you may know Jody Potter, showed up in one of her litters last year. His name is Pi, and I will try to get a picture and post in this thread.
> 
> I have seen several pictures of liver saddle patterns, but never a liver sable pattern.
> 
> I dont think this is even liver colored, looks lighter than that to me, and the face has dark pigment. Very different.


I know I'm not using the terms red and liver interchangeably. The liver gene is a whole other thing. 
I'm basing my earlier statement on something an SV judge said at a Koerung we hosted a few years back. He got all huffy and said there is no such thing as "black" sable or "red" sable or any other color sable. Either the dog is sable or it is not, if the hairs don't have the sable pattern then the dog is not sable. 
Maybe it has changed in the meantime, but I still remember that whenever someone tells me what color sable they have .

Wish I could remember who it was...


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## SchattenHaus

dawnandjr said:


> Found them:


wow hes awsome!


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## onyx'girl

:help:


Lucky Paw said:


> i just had my dog tied to a red sable female i cant wait for the pups, by the way she is imported from hungary


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## PatchonGSD

Lucky Paw said:


> i just had my dog tied to a red sable female i cant wait for the pups, by the way she is imported from hungary


I hope you are joking.


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## jaggirl47

PatchonGSD said:


> I hope you are joking.


 
I don't think he is. He was soliciting the breeding on another thread.


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## vom Eisenherz

Annette is correct. There is no such thing as "black sable" or any other color sable. Any color added is purely descriptive. Sables have black-tipped hairs. That's what the distinction "sable" means. The dog in question is supposed to be black and red, but he's extremely faded, so much so that he has no saddle at all and hardly a mask- only his muzzle is black. Notice the white-tipped feet; they're a dead giveaway that the dog is faded black and red, not sable. 

He's a cutie, but I understand why the breeder would sell him for less. Fading is not a desirable thing.


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## PatchonGSD

jaggirl47 said:


> I don't think he is. He was soliciting the breeding on another thread.


Just saw that....guess he didnt learn much here.


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## Jag

I'm just curious how a person would describe a sable that is black and red... if not to call it a 'red sable'? My guy is still changing... becoming darker by the day, but is a red sable like his father and his grandfather. Xavior vom Spartanville is a red sable, as is Baxter z Dragon. There are other dogs back (like Grim PS) where you can see the red in their coat. Although it's true, either a dog is sable or they are not for such things as AKC registration, the eyes do not lie. Considering the amount of black taking over already on my pup, I think that the red will be much less prominent than his ancestors. His dam being a very dark sable probably helped to 'tone down' the red... we'll have to see what his adult coat ends up looking like. However, the black is creeping in all over.


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## Jag

Xavior, then Baxter, then Grim.


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## arycrest

Mac is a red sable.


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## BlackthornGSD

vom Eisenherz said:


> The dog in question is supposed to be black and red, but he's extremely faded, so much so that he has no saddle at all and hardly a mask- only his muzzle is black. Notice the white-tipped feet; they're a dead giveaway that the dog is faded black and red, not sable.
> 
> He's a cutie, but I understand why the breeder would sell him for less. Fading is not a desirable thing.


Do you mean the original poster's dog? The OP says that dog has been the same color since puppyhood. That dog is a "fawn," sometimes called a gold sable, although I don't think we'd consider the dog a sable at all (with banded hairs)--other than the fact that the gene is on the agouti allele. 

Here's another site with some examples and genetics explanations--this site calls it a "clear sable" -- it could also perhaps be a "tipped sable" as described on this site.

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

This color has been in the breed a long time. I first saw a dog this color at a dog show back in the early 90s. It's mentioned in both the Fred Lanting and the Wynthea Strickland books, iirc.

This is another site that talks about the various patterns on the agouti allele:

Agouti and its Interactions in Dogs


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## Piper'sgrl

I've got a red pattern sable..I think she represents what that is anyway lol. My soon to be 9 month old Piper


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## vom Eisenherz

Christine, I meant if the parents are both black and red, then you'd think he's supposed to be black and red...............and then I got him mixed up w/a different one's pic. :crazy:I did mean I wouldn't call him a sable at all, though. I managed to keep my head clear on that one.


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## PatchonGSD

Piper'sgrl said:


> I've got a red pattern sable..I think she represents what that is anyway lol. My soon to be 9 month old Piper


Stunning girl!


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## vicky2200

My girl looks very similar to your boy. 
























As a pup, she was basically the same color. Her papers say she is a sable and her hair looks the same as your dog's when you pull it back. The only black on her is on her tail, a little by her ears and stray black hairs randomly throughout her body. Her mom was all white and her dad was black and tan. I have the same problems with people telling me that she isn't a purebred, but I LOVE her coloring and I would have actually paid MORE for her color. Her sister looked similar to her as a pup but with a dark face, and now has the same coloring only a little bit of dark on the back. No clue what the coloring is really called.


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## Rosa

Your boy is so beautiful regardless of what the name of his colour is!


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## Piper'sgrl

PatchonGSD said:


> Stunning girl!


Thank you so much!


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## carmspack

Jag your Baxter is stunning .
Here is Alf Osterburg Quell , a good sample of red sable SG Alf von Osterburg Quell
and you could refer to http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/177882-breed-development.html


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## Jag

carmspack said:


> Jag your Baxter is stunning .


Um, just wanted to clarify, Grim is my only boy...Baxter z Dragon is his father, my breeder's dog. The other pic is Baxter's father. Guess I should've put that explanation in the picture post as well. Just didn't want to cause any confusion. I'd be very pleased if Grim was the spitting image of his daddy, though!


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## Lady Jenna

I don't know very much about dog genetics, and almost nothing about GSD genetics; but I know a fair amount about horse genetics, and I think it applies here. The correct color may be called a fawn, but what your dog carries is called a dilution. What it does is change the red/tan of a normal sable to a light cream, and the black tips to red. In horses is it highly coveted, and results in buckskins and duns in a single dilute, and cremellos with a double dilute. As I said, I don't know much about GSD genetics, but I would not recommend ever breeding your dog, you run the risk of producing light colored puppies. And yes, two black and tan saddle dogs could produce a puppy with a dilute, it is a complicated coordination of genetics to produce it, but once you have it, it will ALWAYS be passed on, even if it is not displayed.


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## NPowersGSD

*Red Sable GSD?*

Hey guys, I am having trouble identifying my GSD color. I have her papers stating she is purebred, so breed identification is not really an issue. Any opinions would be appreciated! I have attached photos.


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## carmspack

who were the sire and dam ?


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## Cschmidt88

NPowersGSD said:


> Hey guys, I am having trouble identifying my GSD color. I have her papers stating she is purebred, so breed identification is not really an issue. Any opinions would be appreciated! I have attached photos.


Do you have any puppy pictures? That'll help get a better idea.

But this looks like true sable (ie the dominant form, not the agouti that is called "sable" in GSD). Maybe a tipped or shaded sable.
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Not trying to sound rude, but definitely not a color I would think very plausible in a purebred GSD, unless she was born a different color and just somehow faded like crazy.(As all of the recessive color traits in the GSD, solid black, agouti sable, or creeping tan would not be present to produce this.)


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## NPowersGSD

Not rude at all, I actually agree with you. However the paperwork seems pretty legitimate which puzzled me. What breed/mix would seem more plausible in you're opinion? How would I verify this?

Thanks for your help!


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## NPowersGSD

*Red Sable GSD? Pup pic*

Unfortunately I do not have a picture of her parents. Here she is(on the right) standing next to her brother(on the left).


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## carmspack

"But this looks like true sable (ie the dominant form, not the agouti that is called "sable" in GSD). "

The sable in the GSD IS dominant 

Sable by translation means sand . You can NOT compare other breeds .
Malcolm Willis - 3 book series including The German Shepherd Its History, Development and Genetics, The German Shepherd Dog , and Genetics of Dogs are good reference books .

finding links Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics

the good looking pup NPower is asking about , in MY opinion does not look purebred to me . Something about the head , coat , colour -- and then the picture of the littermate ! To my eye it looks like somewhere , maybe far in the background , there has been some other breed influence - maybe boxer . 

That is why I was asking about the pedigree of the pup .


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## Cschmidt88

carmspack said:


> "But this looks like true sable (ie the dominant form, not the agouti that is called "sable" in GSD). "
> 
> The sable in the GSD IS dominant
> 
> Sable by translation means sand . You can NOT compare other breeds .
> Malcolm Willis - 3 book series including The German Shepherd Its History, Development and Genetics, The German Shepherd Dog , and Genetics of Dogs are good reference books .
> 
> finding links Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics
> 
> the good looking pup NPower is asking about , in MY opinion does not look purebred to me . Something about the head , coat , colour -- and then the picture of the littermate ! To my eye it looks like somewhere , maybe far in the background , there has been some other breed influence - maybe boxer .
> 
> That is why I was asking about the pedigree of the pup .


The link you posted states that the GSD sable (aka "Agouti" "Wolf sable" "wolf grey") is recessive. I have never seen a sable GSD bred to a non-agouti breed produce another sable. If it were truly dominant it would do so.


From the link above


> *aw* _Gray_ what we usually call sable in GSD's (both gray and red sables are genetically the same at this locus... red sables carrying the recessive for redder tan - see the Intensity series below). "aw" would also be called agouti.


Lower case allele implies it is recessive, a dominant is upper case. They speak of it having varying levels of dominance over the other recessive agouti locus traits, as bicolor and saddle are also on the agouti locus. ("a") It is dominant over the other recessives, but not a dominant trait in the general scope of genetics.

All of the traits present in the GSD as far as color (Besides masking) are recessive. So it's natural confusion would be created, as certain traits are dominant over other recessives, but not a truly dominant gene itself.


Dog Coat Colour Genetics


> *The Agouti Series*
> The agouti series is currently known to consist of *four* alleles:
> *Ay* - sable
> *aw* - agouti
> *at* - tan points
> *a* - recessive black
> *Agouti / Wolf Grey*
> Agouti is one of the oldest and most widespread mammal colour genes. It can be found on rodents, deer, wild rabbits, and it's also the main colour phase of the wolf. The main reason it's so common is the camouflage it provides.
> Agouti is typified by strands of fur that are *banded*. This means that as the fur is growing, first the cells produce one type of pigment (usually eumelanin, so black/liver/blue/isabella pigment) and then they switch to another type (usually phaeomelanin, so red). The gene that tells the cells to keep changing the pigment they produce is generally classified as *aw*. The "w" stands for *"wild type"*. The wild type is the standard/common colour that an animal occurs in, which in the case of wolves (and therefore dogs) is agouti.
> Now the agouti gene in rabbits and deer produces banded hairs all over the coat, but for some reason the agouti gene in dogs is a little different. It restricts the banded hairs to *certain parts* of the coat, which are, roughly, the upper parts (back, head, top of legs etc). It's a gene inherited from the wolf, and can be seen on many breeds which are considered to be close to wolves (e.g. Czech Wolfdogs, Saarloos Wolfhonds), as well as some Northern spitz-type breeds (Keeshond, Elkhound).
> In its normal form, agouti can be almost identical to *shaded sable*. The main difference is the banded hairs, but if you can't get close enough to see those, the pattern is also slightly different. Agouti tends to follow the same pattern as traditional tan points (with a nose "bar" instead of a widow's peak) rather than creeping tan or shaded sable (see below), although it does appear to vary.
> When combined with *phaeomelanin* dilution (see the *I locus* page), agouti becomes much more distinctive, as the red hairs become cream or greyish. The result is a *wolf grey* dog, like the Keeshond, Vallhund or Elkhound. The Elkhound below has partial dilution of phaeomelanin, which leaves cream points, and the Husky has almost full dilution of phaeomelanin, leaving off-white points. The three dogs below are probable agoutis, although as stated above it can be difficult to tell these apart from shaded sables in photos.
> 
> 
> 
> It's also worth noting that so-called *"sable"* German Shepherd Dogs are in fact agouti.​



A-Locus | Canine Coat Color | Animal Genetics



> *The "aw" Allele*
> 
> The "aw" allele produces a color known as "wild sable," sometimes called the "wild type," or in some breeds, "wild boar." With this coloration, the hairs switch pigmentation from black to reddish or fawn. This color is sometimes seen in German Shepherds and other shepherd breeds. It is recessive only to the "ay" allele. If a dog is "n/n" for the "ay" allele, a dog with one or two copies of the "aw" allele will express this coloration. A dog that is n/n for "ay" that has one copy of the "aw" allele can carry either the "at" or "a" allele and not express it, though can pass either allele to any offspring.


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## Cschmidt88

As far as what could be the mix, it's really hard to say. Since that is a dominant trait, she doesn't necessarily have to be a 50/50 cross. She could have had one dog mixed before her parents and papers hung (common in some breeds, not sure how common it is in GSDs) and as long as each generation inherited that trait it could make it down to her. Dominant tipped/shaded sable is one of the most common genes found in dog breeds.


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## carmspack

in OUR breed "sable" is dominant gene 

Fred Lanting Sirius Dog "From the Latin _zobola_, Russian _soboli_, Scandinavian _sabel_, and German _zobel_, we get our word, but not our meaning. It brings a different image in other breeds, such as the Collie, Basenji, and Sheltie where it refers to a reddish-yellow dog. Even in the Pembroke Welsh Corgi, the sable dog gives mostly an orange impression. In the Shar-Pei, we see a color that looks like the GSD sable, but has a different genetic constitution."
New Page 1 "Sable is the original wolf colour, with a paler ground colour overlaid with a mantle of black tipped guard hairs. In the shepherd this ground will be tan, with an overlay which is heavy and may appear from a distance to be black. Willis discusses, but is not convinced of, the existence of two alleles for sable: grey and yellow"

German pedigrees would say grau (grey) Schwarz , or Schwarz / braun 

no bicolour , no blanket this or that , no golden sable, red sable ,


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## MichaelE

Ossie:


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## carmspack

Fawn ?

K9-Pines.com: German Shepherds - Ay Fawn


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## Cschmidt88

I'm sorry but the Linda Shaw link says nothing about it being a dominant or recessive gene, simply talks about the nature of the coat colors. (The book it references, The German Shepherd Dog: Its History, Development and Genetics, was published in 1977, genetic research has come a looooong way since then.) The links I referenced talk about the GSD specifically, including the one you linked prior that also states it's recessive. It is dominant amongst the GSD traits because, as mentioned, it is the most dominant of the recessives, but that is different from a truly dominant trait. When it is referred to as "Dominant over other GSD traits." it does not mean the gene itself is dominant. 

Agouti aka wild type IS "the original wolf color", that is what is referenced in the above links. Which are backed with genetic research and testing.


Here's another GSD specific link that also states that sable is the "aw" gene that is discussed in prior links.
GSD Color Determination & Genetics




Dog Coat Colour Genetics


> Dominant alleles are generally written with a capital letter, for example *B*. Recessive alleles are written with a lower case letter, for example *b*. Sometimes there is more than one dominant or recessive allele on a locus. When this happens, there is usually an *order of dominance*, so one of the dominant alleles is more dominant than the other, and one of the recessive alleles is more recessive than the other. We generally talk of series having "top dominants" and "bottom recessives".


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## Cschmidt88

NPowersGSD said:


> Unfortunately I do not have a picture of her parents. Here she is(on the right) standing next to her brother(on the left).


Sorry, I forgot to ask. Do you know what color the parents were? I forget that white GSDs, depending on the nature of the white gene, could possibly mask certain genes like Ay sable and produce a Ay sable offspring, like your girl.


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## Jennifer Everitt

What would my boy be considered?


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## Nhia

I have two dogs similar to the original poster's dog but for me, when they were puppies, they had a black saddle. As they grew older, the saddle faded away. My male is a bit more yellow than red but the female is red like the original poster's dog. Unfortunately I don't a decent shot of the female. Their pups usually comes out black/tan with maybe one or two that grows up having their colors. The first picture is of him, and the second is him and his son.


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