# Barking in obedience



## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Does a dog that is vocal in obedience signify anything to you? I've heard someone say it's a dog who is leaking drive and who can't think clearly, and I've heard someone say it's just an expressison of the drive state and not to worry about it. What does it signify to you? 

For me, not just that I trust the person with the latter opinion moreso than the former, but trying to see it as a dog who can't think clearly, I dont think I get it , if the dog is performing as they've been trained, then obviously they are thinking, right? Maybe Im missing something, hence my post. 

My dog, will bark rather continuously at me when setting up for obedience, in the basic position, doing pivots, during the halt, basically anytime she's stationary in basic position. As soon as we start moving she's quite for the most part, maybe an occasional whine or yip.

So what do you think?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've seen that behavior in dogs with a LOT of prey drive.. I also see it with dogs that have certain dogs in their pedigree.. And when there's conflict between dog and handler (not saying that's you) or handlers that are hectic and it bleeds over onto the dog..


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

To me in depends on what you mean by vocal. A bark here or there is not a big deal (actually it might even be looked on favorably as enthusiasm for the work), but constant barking or whining during the exercises can be a problem.

From experience, it's something you should suppress if you can. Our girl is a screamer. It's in her genes and she is high in the prey drive. We've worked on it, and worked on it and Anka is now to the point where she'll bark at the commands, but will remain quiet through the exercises. It is worse in the obedience during protection where the drive is even higher and is still an issue that we are dealing with. Working with food, which she has lower drive for, instead of her ball has helped. 

I would agree that in general it's drive leaking. It's not necessarily that they're not thinking, but they're not putting 100% in the action, they're letting some of it go with vocalization. There are other ways that dogs do this besides vocalization. I've seen a couple dogs (mostly Mals, 1 Shepherd) that let their excess energy/drive go into chattering of the mouth, or quivering of the body. A vocalizing dog is generally more likely to break position and become imprecise. 

Now that isn't necessarily a HUGE problem as long as it doesn't get out of control but if left unchecked, as the drive builds in the dog it gets worse. In competition a dog that barks or whines excessively WILL lose points for restlessness and lack of control, even if the exercises themselves are perfect. I've seen dogs get murdered in the OB (not as much in the protection) with the comment that the exercise needs to be more calm. They pass because the exercises are satisfactory but they lost a lot of style points. So I guess it depends on what your goals are, as to how much or if you try to alter the behavior.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Hmm.. what dogs in the pedigree? She definitely, in my opinion atleast, has A LOT of prey drive and that's prob what it is. Could be a conflict I'm unaware of, but for her and I, I doubt it's me being hectic, if anything I tend to be too passive, but perhaps that's the conflict?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm not saying you Kristi.. have conflict with your dog or are a hectic handler..

But that I have seen that in people I've trained with..


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

How did you work on it with your girl?? At this point, it is mainly like I said, not during the exercises, but when we're stationary, but it is pretty intense barking, the longer we stay in one spot, the deeper and more intense the barking gets. 

We've done hardly any obedience in protection, and Im sure it would be even more intense then. 

I'm not worried about squishing drive, but if I were to correct her there, Im afraid it would just make it worse.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Yes, corrections can make it worse, sometimes it stimulates the dog more..


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I know Leesa, didn't take it that way, and for all you know I could be hectic and conflicting








So I appreciate your experiences!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Justin taught Anka "Quiet" at home with marker training (same as the clicker) and then started using that new command in stationary positions around the house until she understood that barking was NOT part of the behavior that we wanted.

Corrections with her prong collar didn't really seem to help. If anything they kicked up the drive higher. So from there we had 2 things suggested to us. Nylon slip lead and take away the air, or Non reward. Depends on what you want to do. The choking route is pretty common to see among older trainers and can be very effctive in a short amount of time if done correctly. And you're not really hanging up the dog, you merely pull against your leg so that they can no longer bark and reinforce with the word "Quiet" which you should have already taught. 

If you go the non-reward route you have to be prepared for it to take some time. You have to go back to simple stationary positions and wait for quiet behavior. Any noise at all and there is no reward, no forward movement, Nothing. You have to wait it out, and if she won't stop then she goes away without working. Baby steps. Anka vocalizes becauses she wants to do something, and barking in those stationary positions get you to MOVE. (Or at least that's how they see it) 

Will she wait when you throw the ball? That might be another good exercise. Waiting and holding a position quietly and then being released to get her reward.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And it is not something that most judges like - they see it as leaking and/or conflict. Based on feedback from judges and critiques when I have seen it,

The drive should be (for them) shown through the intensity in the exercise itself.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks Jklats, just talked to someone who suggested using the slip lead. I appreciate you sharing what you have done. How old is Anka??
Hexe IS always quiet when waiting for me to throw the ball, thats a good idea.


Hmm.. more on "drive leaking" ? Im not sure I understand what is meant by this. Is it basically, a dog who is expending so much energy barking they aren't performing the exercise correct? I HAVE seen dogs who bark through the entire ob routine. Maybe that is what would end up happening with my girl if I were to let it go, but as of right now, its just in basic position, and she usually stays in the correct position, and will stop barking when we start moving, and from that point on she works intensely, until we stop again.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakDoes a dog that is vocal in obedience signify anything to you? I've heard someone say it's a dog who is leaking drive and who can't think clearly, and I've heard someone say it's just an expressison of the drive state and not to worry about it. What does it signify to you?...
> 
> ...So what do you think?


Bison is high prey drive with a easy “on” switch. He is starting as an older dog with an inexperienced handler (that’s me







) so he doesn’t have the discipline that he normally would at this age. So... that being said, I think those factors make it really easy to tell why he is vocalizing. He has a few different vocalizations that he does and they each mean a different thing. This is what I have figured out (at least what I think) so far...

- *Drive overload*- Sounds like a whine or a scream. “OH I am so excited that I can’t stand it anymore and got to focus this energy somewhere.” I think this is what people mean when by the term leaking drive. When he is like this he CANNOT listen or focus. I know this because I give him a command that he doesn’t react to then I give it a few seconds for the drive to lessen then call his name and he looks at me like “what?” then I give the command again and he complies. Corrections definately make it worse.
- *Conflict-* Like a high pitched growl mixed with a whine. “I understand what you are asking me to do, but I don’t want (or can’t)” This is due to some sort of conflict that is going on. 
- *Confusion-* Regular whine combined with slightly splayed ears. “I want to please you but I don’t understand how.” IMO this is because of his drive state as well.
- *Yippee-* “I really like doing this” Short clipped bark combined with a doggy smile.

As for fixing it...I am still working on it. I will let you know what I did if it works.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My dog barks at the begining I enjoy it...it always makes me smile...Judges don't like it...oh well


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

When I bought one of my old dogs some years back, his owner showed me his obedience before I took him home. The dog barked for every minute of the SchH routine. The only time he didn't bark was when he was retrieving the dumbbells. The handler was very inexperienced and I had not really seen a dog do that, so, I wasn't that concerned about it.
Once I got him home and he was settled in for a month or so, I started to work him. I can't really recall that I did anything special with him except one thing. I turned my "internal energy" way down. Meaning I was just flat in the way I handled him. That dog didn't need to see much pep in my step or in my attitude. There was nothing I did as the handler that stimulated him, so, I never saw that barking in obedience. The only time I saw anything close to that was in the long down where he would whine. I fixed it with a clicker and by clicking and returning to him in the long down to reward him when he was quiet over and over. Pretty soon, that was gone too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm getting some whining (not continuous, but each time the dog changes position it's accompanied with a whine) right now because of something new I'm working on at home where the clicker is out and the ball happens to be back in sight. I'm thinking (hoping) it will go away once the skill is learned and the ball goes away again? It seems clicker training and anticipating the reward (food or toy) seems to bring more vocalization from my dog. Right now if move slowly and command in a neutral, softer voice than usual, it seems to keep the whining under control. I think it's a combination of over-load and confusion, since the ball is being used a lot and a new skill is being learned, every few repetitions something is added/increased. Otherwise, SchH obedience is usually the most quiet the dog is. Not just in SchH, but in general he will vocalize stress, confusion, anxiety, etc.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:It seems clicker training and anticipating the reward (food or toy) seems to bring more vocalization from my dog


I use anticipation to increase drive, so, yes, that would not surprise me that you would see barking there.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Kristi, my Heidi who is also a Basha daughter leaks drive in obedience. If I had it to do over with her I would have used food almost 100% of the time for foundation training as in hindsight the ball would overload her. 

However, there are other times when she is leaky such as prior to me opening the door to let her out in the yard to play. 

Your girl sounds like she is less extreme in the leaking though. 

Fun obedience and agility dog I have to say. She never stops and always has a super attitude. 

I agree with the advice to try and squelch it sooner rather than later. Have fun!!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: kingstonMy dog barks at the begining I enjoy it...it always makes me smile...Judges don't like it...oh well


But she said the dog barks throughout. And if you are competing for a title.....

Another is that it is a bad habit that the dog learned. 

Back to what Anne talked about: re-train.....


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've seen judges take serious points for a dog whinning, being vocal and these were club trials... Both in obedience and protection..


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not competing


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

And I get to enjoy my dog so...back to what Ann is talking about...


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Kingston, I am not sure I read that right...or maybe I read it write and it was not intended to "sound" the way it "sounded" to me. But jsut because someone is competeing with their dogs does NOT mean that they do not also get to enjoy their dogs. Hopefully I jsut misinterpreted tone, and if that is the case I apologise. I jsut didn't want people to think that jsut because people compete doesn't mean they don't enjoy/love/you name it with their dogs!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

But the OP is going for titles. 

And we do this for fun/sport as well.


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