# Avoidance behavior during protection/defense



## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

My female shepherd is now 9 months old. She had a TON of drive to begin with, great lines with high drive dogs, etc. Showed a ton of promise on the field. Around 7.5-8 months she started acting a little strange. At home she acted normal at first, but on the field during protection she suddenly seemed as though she had no interest. This was after I had been away almost 2 weeks, but I've gone away before and this did not happen.

I'll split it up into weeks so you can see the progression.

Week 1 - was not interested in helper/decoy, hardly went after tug. Still interested in small reward tug during obedience at home and on the field. tracking unchanged.

Week 2 - continues not being interested in helper/decoy. Interested in small tug reward toy during obedience only at home, no longer on the field. Tracking unchanged.

Week 3 - Same as above, but no longer interested in small tug reward at home or on the field. Bought burlap sac and goes nuts over it at home.

Week 4 - Did not bother bringing small tug reward on the field during obedience, as she no longer cares for it. Asked helper/decoy to use burlap flirt pole instead of long tug as she has been enjoying it at home. Seemed slightly interested as we got on the field but after one semi bite, became completely avoidant, ignoring helper, and at one point even turned her back to him and just started looking around and sniffing the grass. 

She has not gone into first heat yet, so a few of us thought that maybe she was hormonal, but her drive still seems to be decreasing with no signs of heat in sight. Breeders opinion was to crate her unless she was working, and this did not help. Her opinion now is to crate her for a few months and she if she improves in the future, I do not feel comfortable doing this. My dogs are not ONLY working dogs, they are family and I don't see how ignoring her for several months could improve anything?

Any suggestions for things I might still be able to try?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this shows you that she is stressed , not ready for this -- too young , tone it down "Seemed slightly interested as we got on the field but after one semi bite, became completely avoidant, ignoring helper, and at one point even turned her back to him and just started looking around and sniffing the grass. "


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sounds like carmen hit the nail on the head


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, she is too young. Put her up for awhile in the protection phase. If she has it genetically, it'll be there when she's 18-24 months.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

so should the helper not even do bite work with a 9 month old? or does it depend on the dog?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> so should the helper not even do bite work with a 9 month old? or does it depend on the dog?



Depends on the dog, how the dog is worked, and what the end goal is.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

She is definitely showing stress about something. This is sort of an off the wall thought, but have you checked her mouth? Not wanting to engage the helper is most likely her age and being pushed too fast, but not wanting to play tug with you could be pain. If there is nothing physically wrong with her than I would give her some time off. Play, maybe track, play, let her be a dog for awhile until she comes into heat. After her heat cycle see how she is about engaging you in obedience again. I would hold off on bitework until she is engaging you at home and on the field in obedience. I do very little with my puppies and young dogs. Maybe some barking work with no bites or a single bite a month later. If they have it, they will have it when a bit more mature.

Wanted to add. While crating her the day of training or the night before might not be a bad idea, I do not believe in creating drive through deprivation. Leaving her crated for a month so she will develop the desire to work just isn't fair, IMO, to the dog. They are not equipment only to be pulled out when we want to play. If she has the drive to work she will work without doing so because she is desperate for attention and interaction.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> While crating her the day of training or the night before might not be a bad idea, I do not believe in creating drive through deprivation. Leaving her crated for a month so she will develop the desire to work just isn't fair, IMO, to the dog. They are not equipment only to be pulled out when we want to play. If she has the drive to work she will work without doing so because she is desperate for attention and interaction.


:thumbup:


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Not much to add, just share my experience. I am currently working my young dog, hopefully he will do well in SchH. But I have, reluctantly, followed the advice of many people and not worked my dog at all in bitework. It's frustrating. I wanna get going. But I have happily seen a huge change in my boy over the last few months. 

Sometimes it's okay to wait. No need to rush. Not all dogs are emotionally ready for bitework at a young age. My boy will not be "tested" on the helper until he is well over 15 months, probably not before 18 months. He is tracking, doing wonderful obedience, having a good time and growing up. He is not a dog with a high "functional" prey drive. He does not feel comfortable yet challenging a stranger. But it's coming. Honestly, the search work has helped. He is getting more confident, more engaged and I am seeing him really come in to himself. 

But if I were you, I would not work her at all in bitework. Keep training, track, obedience, just fun play at home. And bring her out again in the fall. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

lhczth said:


> She is definitely showing stress about something. This is sort of an off the wall thought, but have you checked her mouth? Not wanting to engage the helper is most likely her age and being pushed too fast, but not wanting to play tug with you could be pain. If there is nothing physically wrong with her than I would give her some time off. Play, maybe track, play, let her be a dog for awhile until she comes into heat. After her heat cycle see how she is about engaging you in obedience again. I would hold off on bitework until she is engaging you at home and on the field in obedience. I do very little with my puppies and young dogs. Maybe some barking work with no bites or a single bite a month later. If they have it, they will have it when a bit more mature.
> 
> Wanted to add. While crating her the day of training or the night before might not be a bad idea, I do not believe in creating drive through deprivation. Leaving her crated for a month so she will develop the desire to work just isn't fair, IMO, to the dog. They are not equipment only to be pulled out when we want to play. If she has the drive to work she will work without doing so because she is desperate for attention and interaction.


That is exactly how I feel. I don't see the point in that and I 100% do not believe that would help her improve whatsoever. 

Teeth-wise, with me she will play fine, it's only her one small reward tug that she use to love that she has no interest in so I don't think it's her teeth, she hasn't shown any discomfort or bleeding. She will still play with a ball, burlap sack, any toys from home, just not that ONE reward tug I've been using since she was 14 weeks. Guess I will try a new one and see if she just got bored with that one. 

She does not bark during protection either, she never has. So bark work would be us standing there silently lol the breeder said her mother was also a "late barker" so I'm not too worried on that aspect, I just hope the drive in general comes back! But I will lay off the protection for awhile and just go back to more fun tug playing for now until she gets a bit older. She will be 1 year when we move to Kansas with a new club so maybe I will wait to see how she does there and just continue with obedience and tracking, she really loves tracking.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

I think people on this thread, including the OP are failing to distinguish bite-work into it's relevant phases in the context of the dogs development. There shouldn't be anything inherently stressful about biting a piece of leather on a flirt pole, this is a rudimentary step in the beginning of bite work. 

So the dog is either in actual avoidance or just not interested in the work. There is a huge difference between those two things though. The fact that your dog had a bite but then turned around and showed no interest doesn't seem like avoidance to me, it just seems like the dog simply isn't interested but only you'll know for sure. The title suggests that the dog is being worked in "defence", yet what the OP is describing is obviously prey-based work. 

Lets assume that his helper is responsible enough to not work a dog at this level and age in "defence", in that case the dog may stressed by the environment it's in and the presence of the helper OR she's just not interested in the work and the interesting smells and sights of the training field are far more engaging to her than working with the helper - this could be a result of bad helper work i.e. putting to much stress on the dog, too early or a lack of prey drive, or perhaps both.

It'd be interesting to see what her issue is.

A dog should start bitework from 8 weeks onward, it's just that the nature of this work changes, from prey-based, with the handler, to an eventually more serious nature with the helper. I wouldn't rush things either, if you get knocked back it's often best to start from square one and work on building drive and a solid grip at home through things like frustration and back pressure.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> He is not a dog with a high "functional" prey drive.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


When you said "functional prey drive" did you mean this?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks). 

A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks).
> 
> A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.


All helpers *should* realize that... if you don't you shouldn't be doing helper work as you're really just someone playing with a dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hunter, there are a lot of helpers that are unaware of the effect they have on a dog. Even some that are considered very good and experienced.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Hunter, there are a lot of helpers that are unaware of the effect they have on a dog. Even some that are considered very good and experienced.


how could they be considered "very good"?


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

lhczth said:


> My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks).
> 
> A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.


I think the vast majority of dogs need to be taken through initial bitework, that involves developing the proper bite mechanics, through grip development and presentation and this is all done in prey. The helper then gradually increases pressure to get the dog to focus on him/her. Prey becomes the avenue for alleviating stress. So does your dog have any prey drive?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

hunterisgreat said:


> how could they be considered "very good"?


Because most people are clueless.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Not as a young dog, no. I developed a desire to play with toys by making it a fight when she brought it back. She works out of fight. She wants to dominate, control and beat the bejeebers out of the helper. Her grandmother had more prey/play for toys, but also wasn't that interested in rag games when I started her at 8 months. She was on a sleeve in 3 sessions. 

I have seen too many dogs that don't play rag games over the years to say that the vast majority need this early work. If the dog has the right genetics they don't need this early work. Heck, my first SchH3 was 2.5 before she started bitework. No, not ideal, but I was clubless at the time. The only issue we had with her that maybe could have been due to her late start was that she was very hard to get to counter. It could have also been genetic.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> I think the vast majority of dogs need to be taken through initial bitework, that involves developing the proper bite mechanics, through grip development and presentation and this is all done in prey. The helper then gradually increases pressure to get the dog to focus on him/her. Prey becomes the avenue for alleviating stress. So does your dog have any prey drive?



All dogs do need to go through initial, developmental bite work. It doesn't have to be at 8 weeks old though. As a decoy, I try and start puppies/dogs in both prey and civil/defensive type work. Age appropriate of course. If the genetics are there then this is not an issue. For my personal dogs, most of the prey and grip work is done with me during our play sessions. By the time my current puppy see's a decoy she should be able targeting well, have an understanding of the game and a very nice bite.


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