# Working vs. Non-Working lines?



## ksnider (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi 

I'm working on a research proposal to look at the genetics of German Shepherd aggression - essentially, which genes influence whether or not a German Shepherd will accurately assess and appropriately respond to a threat? For the purpose of pedigree analysis, I'm trying to find out how closely related working lines and non-working lines are. For example, if you took a typical working-bred GSD in the United States, and a typical AKC Conformation-bred GSD, how many generations back would you have to go to find a "common ancestor"? Do they sometimes share registries, or have they been kept to separate registries, and if so for how long? Any resources (websites, books, articles) that you could point me to on this subject would also be appreciated.

Thanks!

Kaitlin Snider


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )
This is a good link that can teach you some. However, the best way to research the lines is to attend shows, sporting events, shepherd clubs, etc.
I'm sure that one of the more knowledgeable members will be more helpful lol.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> (Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )
> This is a good link that can teach you some. However, the best way to research the lines is to attend shows, sporting events, shepherd clubs, etc.
> I'm sure that one of the more knowledgeable members will be more helpful lol.


 
Good luck with this study - sounds like a great thing to have done. But be very careful of identifying a "representative" population.

Another major potential difficulty i can see is how are you going to define "Aggression" and also measure it objectively?

One big problem for a serious research study of using shows to assess is the "selection" factor - that is, besides the very limited population of GSD's in general, you will only see a SMALL % of the specimins from various "lines'. Thoretically that is, you will only see the "better" dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ksnider said:


> Hi
> For example, if you took a typical working-bred GSD in the United States, and a typical AKC Conformation-bred GSD, how many generations back would you have to go to find a "common ancestor"? Do they sometimes share registries, or have they been kept to separate registries, and if so for how long?


As far as registries go, most purebed dogs in the United States are registered with the AKC. So a working-line dogs whose parents were imported from Germany but bred in the States will be AKC registered, with the exact same registration privileges, as an AKC conformation champion.


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## ksnider (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks for the quick responses!  

I definitely agree that choosing and finding the dogs to be included would be a very important part of the research methods. I'd like to compare behaviors and genetics of dogs from actively working lines and non-working lines, as well as dogs from "mixed" lines. While I'm still in the beginning of drafting a proposal (it would be a competitive proposal for graduate school funding), I think I'd like to use something like the American Temperament Test: Description of the Temperament Test | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.. It's already developed, safe for all non-handler-aggressive dogs, and a fairly objective test that looks at the dog's response in threatening, weird-but-not-threatening, and neutral situations.

The link was informative, and Emoore's response especially helpful - my own google-ing had revealed that the lines are separate, but not what registries are used. I have a strong background in working Border Collies, but not as much in German Shepherds; I'm trying to work out transportation to observe and make some friends at the regional club in my area, but no such luck yet. Maybe in a few months.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think you have to distinguish between lines as in bloodlines, and lines as in type. When most people talk about the different lines like west German working lines, west German show lines, American show lines, etc...these are types of GSDs. But then there are actual bloodlines, and the bloodlines/genetics/pedigree will tell you more about the dog than what "type" it is, does that make sense? Just because a dog is a "working line" type does not mean it is any good at work or is genetically solid. You have to examine the pedigree of the individual dog to know that, and that is something that usually takes decades of experience.

If you use the ATTS test as your ideal test, what about talking to people who have taken it and passed and inquiring about the pedigrees of their dogs? I have two dogs that have taken it and one more that will take it in September.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I think you have to distinguish between lines as in bloodlines, and lines as in type. When most people talk about the different lines like west German working lines, west German show lines, American show lines, etc...these are types of GSDs. But then there are actual bloodlines, and the bloodlines/genetics/pedigree will tell you more about the dog than what "type" it is, does that make sense? Just because a dog is a "working line" type does not mean it is any good at work or is genetically solid. You have to examine the pedigree of the individual dog to know that, and that is something that usually takes decades of experience.
> 
> If you use the ATTS test as your ideal test, what about talking to people who have taken it and passed and inquiring about the pedigrees of their dogs? I have two dogs that have taken it and one more that will take it in September.


 :thumbup:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Liesje;2529084
If you use the ATTS test as your ideal test said:


> I never heard of this, so I investigated. I would like to do this test also, but I don't see anything in my area


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

They are few and far between. Honestly I don't think it's all that valuable of a test. I think it's a better test of temperament than a CGC but the way the test is done is very basic and is not going to tell you anything about a really good GSD for work or protection sports vs. a mellow dog that might be fine as a pet but have no fight. However I have been doing them because up until recently we rented, and my landlords (and their insurance!) preferred that my GSDs have CGCs and any sort of temperament or obedience certification.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've passed that ATTS...llombardo I can let you know if our club is doing it at our show in September, we did it at our conformation show in June (we're in southeastern Wisconsin). It's a nice test, but yeah it doesn't show anything about the dog being good for protection sports. It does though show you a little bit more about a GSD than a CGC does. It was a fun test, its a certificate, and you get to put TC behind your dogs name!

It does show you a lot about a dog though. There are softer dogs at my club, who, not surprisingly, didn't pass the test. Its pretty easy to prepare your dog and train it for the test, but its much more fun and shows a lot more about the dog if you do it without preparation. The test really doesn't test aggression though, the last test is kind of aggression, but its also very acceptable for the dog to just observe and not really "go nuts."


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

There are two different temperament tests, and though they are very similar, they are scored differently. The GSDCA has a temperament test, and they use the TC to show that a dog has passed the test. There is also the ATTS which is an all-breed certification and they use the TT designation. I have taken both tests with different dogs, and the former president and chief tester for the ATTS was one of my obedience students and is still a very good friend of mine.


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