# 2 ball to 1 ball?



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I am sitting here trying to think how to solve this problem. 

I have built good ball drive in my dog using 2 ball game. BUT.... she is dropping the first ball way too soon to beat feet to the ball I am holding. I unknowingly created this problem by having her run and grab the first ball on string while i hold it up. (She absolutely LOVES to do this). 

Any ideas on how to fix this and switch to a lively 1 ball retrieve?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Get rid of the second ball. Try this: throw the ball a few feet away from you and wait until she returns to let her figure it out. You can reward for even picking up the ball. or you can practice catching the ball first so she learns to focus on just one.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

You need to be careful and not let your dog see you pick up the second ball. There are a couple of things to do. After the dog learns the game, it is natural for the dog to drop the first ball to get the second ball. That is why this game is so effective for teaching the "out" and the recall. 

With dogs that know the game and drop the first ball too far away, I make them go get the first ball and will not reward with the second until they bring the first ball back closer. It is all about the timing. I may also leave the second ball on the ground and not pick it up until the dog is really close and just beat him to it. That is where the timing comes in. I find with some dogs, if they don't see you holding the second ball, they will keep the one they have longer as they return to you. 

If I see a pattern developing where the dog drops the first one too soon, I will not tease or entice with the second ball until the dog is really close. For an older or experienced dog, I give a negative marker, with hold the second ball, point to the first and tell the dog to bring that one to me. The dog quickly learns that to get the second one it must bring the first one all the way back to me. 

Leaving the second ball on the ground and snatching it up really quickly just before the dog gets to it works as well. You have to make some adjustments depending on the dog. 

To go to one ball, I do a very similar thing to what Wolfy described. Start close and reward quickly when the dog drops it. If the dog is toy possessive, you need to instill that trust that the dog will get the ball back.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Slamdunc said:


> With dogs that know the game and drop the first ball too far away, I make them go get the first ball and will not reward with the second until they bring the first ball back closer. It is all about the timing. I may also leave the second ball on the ground and not pick it up until the dog is really close and just beat him to it. That is where the timing comes in. I find with some dogs, if they don't see you holding the second ball, they will keep the one they have longer as they return to you.


^^ this is what I have always done.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would use a ball on string and tug...this way the dog is into bringing the ball back for a game of tug and interaction with you, not away from you. 
Outing is the next question?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I would use a ball on string and tug...this way the dog is into bringing the ball back for a game of tug and interaction with you, not away from you.
> Outing is the next question?


Great idea! For determined tuggers who don't want to out I do the following: holding on to the toy (never use balls initially for this to protect your hands), freeze your grip and don't move, not even your eyes ( I always eye them). I let them tug whatever they want and so far, all of them have gradually loosened their grip as it was no longer fun. Once they let go I marked it with with "drop it!" and tugged again by invite "Tug!" and repeat the out. Once they learn that out is not the end of the fun and drop the toy reliably I start to introduce the ball again. Never needed treats as tug was the reward for dropping the toy.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

For the out, I pair the action and thought process of the dog dropping the first toy to get the second one. When I see the mouth start to open as the dog is running back to me, and the dog is about to drop the ball in it's mouth, I say "out." I make an association with the command and the action the dog is already doing. The dog is already thinking about dropping what is in it's mouth and I simply pair the command with that thought process. 

I do not try to teach an out with a dog that is tugging. I do use a ball on a rope or a kong on a rope for the two ball game. I have found that when a dog is tugging it is counterproductive to even say "out" because a different association is made. The new association is "out" means tug harder. This directly corresponds to bite work and releasing a bite. I find that dogs taught the two ball game and learn to out the toy, out in bite work much cleaner, quicker and with out any conflict. 

I agree with marking the "out" once they drop it, that is the key. I just do it a little sooner. When the dog is about to open it's mouth and release. Here again, it's all about the timing. My dogs would be reluctant to let go if there was any tension on the rope. They would also tug hard, causing movement and the game is on again. Once they know the out, then I release tension on the rope and say out and they will release. 

With stubborn dogs or new dogs, I simply pull out the second toy and make that one really exciting, get the dog interested and then reward when it drops the first toy. 

With the new dog, Boru, I run the risk of getting tagged over a toy. It has gotten much better, but corrections over a toy will cause him to redirect. I simply tell him "LOS" or out, step away, command him to down or return to heel and he complies quickly. I then command stay, pick up the toy and go back to work or reward. I have made progress where he will drop a toy into my hand, but telling him to out and stay is very manageable. Allowing him to do tug wouldn't work, he would do it all day. He's a little OCD and ADHD with toys.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I would use a ball on string and tug...this way the dog is into bringing the ball back for a game of tug and interaction with you, not away from you.
> Outing is the next question?


I had to re read your post. Yes, a tug as reward will work well.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I cannot use the tug at the moment because she does not value it nearly as much as the ball. I also assume I am throwing it way too far, but she loves to run.

I have noticed the difference if a ball is on the ground when she comes in, she is holding on much longer. 

So, then I would race to the ball on the ground and say "out" as she drops the ball, grab and throw it quickly?

She does like to tug the ball, but can get "lockjaw" about it..LOL!


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Get rid of the second ball. Try this: throw the ball a few feet away from you and wait until she returns to let her figure it out. You can reward for even picking up the ball. or you can practice catching the ball first so she learns to focus on just one.


Questions: She is by my side. Do I fake the throw so she runs away and then back?

Reward with the other ball? 

Third, you mean beating her to the ball then letting her have it?

Sorry, I'm confused


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have goals in this game? Is it part of your training or is it just recreational fetch? If this was my dog, I would want her to engage *with* me, not away from me. 
So tugging is a way to get that engagement. You can ask for positions, reward, out, reward the out with another tug or ball toss and keep it going to do obedience. 
Having a dog run out for the toy is a fetch game...it isn't anything more than wearing them out. I would instead do go rounds(have something for the dog to run around, or send outs to also work the brain. 
Reward with me having the ball for either targeting or throwing. Then tug when the dog brings back the ball to me.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Yes, I am using it for send out and retrieve training. I have been struggling with somewhat low drive and we are trying to bring her out with whatever motivates her. It's just hasn't really clicked with the tug

I went to the back yard a little while ago, and just discovered, she brings the ball back and outs very well if I sit on the ground?? Hmmmm..... maybe I don't have as much of a problem as I thought.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

gsdluvr said:


> I am sitting here trying to think how to solve this problem.
> 
> I have built good ball drive in my dog using 2 ball game. BUT.... she is dropping the first ball way too soon to beat feet to the ball I am holding. I unknowingly created this problem by having her run and grab the first ball on string while i hold it up. (She absolutely LOVES to do this).
> 
> Any ideas on how to fix this and switch to a lively 1 ball retrieve?


After my dog was pretty solid with the drop and bring-it commands while playing 2 ball fetch, I started working with him on bringing the first ball straight to my hand. 
As soon as the ball was securely in my hand, I'd quickly toss him the 2nd ball. 
Once he had the 2nd ball, he'd run around with it till I said bring it...he'd bring that ball right to my hand in exchange for the other ball.

He liked playing that game and once he was solid with putting the ball in my hand, we could play fetch with one ball.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

The two ball game is an excellent way to teach a lightning fast recall, while simultaneously teaching the dog to "out." Those are the two behaviors that I use the two ball game for. Using a ball on a rope or a kong on a rope, the dog is doing 50 yard wind sprints in each direction. The game is only about 5 - 10 minutes, tops. It is high energy and will gas your dog out pretty quickly.

Be careful as it is starting to get hot. Only give a small amount of water after the game, wait 10 minutes and give more water. Also walk your dog for a few minutes in the shade if it is hot, let him cool down and keep an eye on the dog.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> The two ball game is an excellent way to teach a lightning fast recall, while simultaneously teaching the dog to "out." Those are the two behaviors that I use the two ball game for. Using a ball on a rope or a kong on a rope, the dog is doing 50 yard wind sprints in each direction. The game is only about 5 - 10 minutes, tops. It is high energy and will gas your dog out pretty quickly.
> 
> Be careful as it is starting to get hot. Only give a small amount of water after the game, wait 10 minutes and give more water. Also walk your dog for a few minutes in the shade if it is hot, let him cool down and keep an eye on the dog.


Right! I do limit that and try to do it in the cool of the day. Ball on a rope I can fling pretty far. Fun to watch her flatten out and fly after it! Just got to get her to hold on to it a little longer when she flies back.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have the same problems when I introduced my dogs to disc sports. They catch a throw or roller and immediately drop that disc and I have to spend the entire session running around after them picking up all the discs they drop. I did as Slamdunc said, just stopped touching or reaching for the second disc to get them into the habit of returning with the first disc. Over time, I was able to start "handling" other discs while they were catching throws and returning to me and now I can have 6 discs in my hand at once while they are running back with one. I like them to drop it at my feet before setting up (running around me) for the next throw. It takes time, but they catch on. Just keep the second ball hidden for a while while the dog learns to bring the first one back.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

"If the dog is toy possessive, you need to instill that trust that the dog will get the ball back."

Jim- can you elaborate on how you do this? The dog in question loves to chase the toy to get the ball to the point of incredible acrobatics, but is slow on the return, and would prefer to keep that ball. I've used a long line and a few other tricks but would love some insight. I don't want to go to corrections yet for a few reasons, prefer to stick to motivational stuff.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I have the same problems when I introduced my dogs to disc sports. They catch a throw or roller and immediately drop that disc and I have to spend the entire session running around after them picking up all the discs they drop. I did as Slamdunc said, just stopped touching or reaching for the second disc to get them into the habit of returning with the first disc. Over time, I was able to start "handling" other discs while they were catching throws and returning to me and now I can have 6 discs in my hand at once while they are running back with one. I like them to drop it at my feet before setting up (running around me) for the next throw. It takes time, but they catch on. Just keep the second ball hidden for a while while the dog learns to bring the first one back.


YESSSS! I JUST figured that out this morning! she will return with 1 ball but not as fast as 2. So I kept the second one hidden and my hands at my sides until she was really close. I need to get faster at removing from pocket though! As in everything, needing to fade the lure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep, over time she will get into the habit of returning with the other ball and you will be able to have the second ball visible and ready to throw. I'm now at a point with my disc dog that I need to basically reverse this and ask him to drop/out his disc *before* returning so I can throw another without him coming back and setting up again before a catch (for an "around the world" type trick with four discs). I was frustrated for a while with him dropping *every* disc but by building some muscle memory for that before I touch a second disc, he figured out the game.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> "If the dog is toy possessive, you need to instill that trust that the dog will get the ball back."
> 
> Jim- can you elaborate on how you do this? The dog in question loves to chase the toy to get the ball to the point of incredible acrobatics, but is slow on the return, and would prefer to keep that ball. I've used a long line and a few other tricks but would love some insight. I don't want to go to corrections yet for a few reasons, prefer to stick to motivational stuff.


Muskeg,
Is the dog possessive because it doesn't want to lose the toy or is reluctant to give up the ball?

I would start back very close, the trust issue is regarding the bond with the dog and how the dog views giving up it's toy. I have a dog that was reluctant to give up toys and would become aggressive. New dog, didn't know me or trust me at the time. The bond was strengthened and the issue has gotten better. But, this dog will react aggressively if not handled correctly. I have a female and we have an excellent bond, but she is super high prey and possessive. In either case I addressed the root problem in a similar way, but with different management. 

For both types of dogs, they have to know that they can trust that they can get the toy back. That you will reward with the toy and they have to trust that you will give it back. 

I start close and do quick substitutions. A fast game, paying immediately for dropping one toy with the other. I would also see if paying with food will help. 

With Boru, who can become aggressive I have made sitting in the "heel position" a safe, fun place. You are not going to take his toy from him or walk up when he is in a down and take his toy, we are not there yet. You are also not going to give him a leash correction and expect to get his toy. He has lit up his leash and inadvertently my hand a few times. I have no desire to be bit by this dog, although I am resigned to the fact that it is going to happen. I am trying to put that off for as long as possible. I also have no desire to fight with this dog, I've been there and done that in the past and no longer see the need. 

So, I simply tell him "out" and call back to the "heel" or basic position. Reward with food or a second toy and praise. Or, I will tell him to stay, pick up the toy, go back to heel, praise and reward. Boru, has learned that he can leave his toy, come back to me and get praised, rewarded and he gets his toy back. This has eliminated 95% of the aggression and possessiveness of his toys. 

For less aggressive dogs, I work the substitution and make the second toy come alive. The one the dog has is "dead" and I run backwards, extremely animated, playing with the other toy. Once the dog understands that he will always get the toy back they drop the first one much quicker and come back much quicker. With the high toy drive and possessive dogs, you have to be careful not to cue the dog when the game is over and the toy is actually taken away. Smart dogs catch on to this and may keep the toy and not recall.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Yep, over time she will get into the habit of returning with the other ball and you will be able to have the second ball visible and ready to throw. I'm now at a point with my disc dog that I need to basically reverse this and ask him to drop/out his disc *before* returning so I can throw another without him coming back and setting up again before a catch (for an "around the world" type trick with four discs). I was frustrated for a while with him dropping *every* disc but by building some muscle memory for that before I touch a second disc, he figured out the game.


I wouldn't bother with 2 balls at all except i want a super speedy return, not just a lope. So, you are saying it will just take time until she is sure?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks for that, Jim. I will work on the close game first. I also like the idea of mixing in OB commands. 

Will start today.


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