# Whats wrong with BYB?



## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

It seems like everyone on here is very against back yard breeders. I have purchased every dog I have ever owned from back yard breeders, or shelters, and so has my entire family (sisters, parents, etc.)
We have owned a Sheltie, Doxies, Boxer, Alaskan Malumute, and a few cocker spaniels all from people who just had two dogs and bred them. As well as several shelter dogs. My step dad had a Choc. Lab. She was not the best dog in the world, but had the biggest heart and was the sweetest dog ever (not a bad dog, I named my daughter after her; Brooke). He paid over $2000 for her and this was 18 years ago. However, all of our other dogs were just as good as her. None had health problems.
Naturally I did the same thing and purchased my GSD from a person who had thier first litter. She is a wonderful dog. She looks amazing, has a great personality etc. As did her parents who I met, they looked like dogs that could be used in shows etc. She seems to have good lines as far as I can tell. However, her parents were never OFA'd, and neither were thier parents but almost all of the dogs above and beyond that line seem to have been OFA'd and were used in competition. She is AKC registered, there was a health gaurentee, a puppy contract to ensure she was going to a good home, she even said she would take any dog back and find them a good home, she also had them vetted etc. I talk to her on a daily basis and she awnsers alot of my questions as best she can!
So why is everyone so against BYB? Is it because of the ones that are bad? Is it because of the hip problems that shepherds have? Did I just get lucky and should never take the chance again? 
I mean this thread in no disrespect but I feel like I should either not be on this forum or should be ashamed because I didn't pay $5000 for my puppy and didn't purchase her from someone who had a website!!


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

Most people won't argue that you can't get a wonderful dog from a BYB. You are stacking the odds in your favor if you go with a reputable breeder, but there's no guarantee that the dog from the reputable breeder ends up with health problems and a short life and the BYB dog lives a healthy 15.

That said, it's more about an investment in future of the breed and it's credibility for me. Some of the best breeders will charge 3 to 10 times as much for a GSD as a BYB and still make less profit then the BYB (or take a straight loss). That money goes somewhere... it goes to ensuring the breed standard for years to come. As well intentioned as a BYB charging $200 may be, that can't do the same for the good of the breed as a very good breeder does.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

And I rescued all three of my (malnourished, overbred, unsocialized, fearful, aggressive, tick infested, heartworm positive, etc., etc.) dogs from puppymill/BYB backgrounds. 

Just sayin'


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Understanding genetics is a learning process. Some time things work out and I am glad you have had good luck so far with your dogs. When you go to a reputable breeder who understands the genetics of the breed you greatly stack the deck in favor of getting a dog that meets your specific expectations.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

A lot of times breeders who don't take the time to learn the breed, title their dogs, and do the breed appropriate health checks often can have very bad results. You never really know what traits are being bred into your dog as opposed to having all the necessary actions taken into breeding from an excellent gene pool. When purchasing a puppy from a BYB you never know what temperament issues, health issues, genetic diseases are being bred into these puppies. Some of these breeders, BYBs, are in it for the money and not for the betterment of the breed itself. There are lots of people out there that are trying to keep the breed the way it was meant to be or better the breed by trying to breed for excellence and healthy stock. They are a sort of enthusiast of the breed, not just a person who sees dollar signs of their dogs.

Also, if a BYB breeds a litter of puppies that have temperament issues and/or health issues those puppies are way more likely to end up in shelters. A responsible breeder would do their best to ensure these issues do not happen or would most likely take the puppy back if it could not be handled by the new owner.


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

Also, I don't look down on anyone that uses a BYB... just giving my thoughts on why I made my choices.


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## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

Omar Little said:


> Most people won't argue that you can't get a wonderful dog from a BYB. You are stacking the odds in your favor if you go with a reputable breeder, but there's no guarantee that the dog from the reputable breeder ends up with health problems and a short life and the BYB dog lives a healthy 15.
> 
> That said, it's more about an investment in future of the breed and it's credibility for me. Some of the best breeders will charge 3 to 10 times as much for a GSD as a BYB and still make less profit then the BYB (or take a straight loss). That money goes somewhere... it goes to ensuring the breed standard for years to come. As well intentioned as a BYB charging $200 may be, that can't do the same for the good of the breed as a very good breeder does.


Very good points!! 
So basically making sure you purchase a puppy from a breeder is just more likely to get a good dog, and that the breed standard is kept. Whereas with a BYB some may just be mass producing puppies to make money?


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

my Max is from a BYB, he`ll be 8 years in May, has cost me thousands in medical bills, bloat, EPI, etc, as far as his temperament and intelligence, thats priceless, if i had an opportunity to get another like him, it wouldn't matter where he came from


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

hmasummers said:


> Very good points!!
> So basically making sure you purchase a puppy from a breeder is just more likely to get a good dog, and that the breed standard is kept. Whereas with a BYB some may just be mass producing puppies to make money?


Either for money or as a hobby, not normally breeding for the standard or not anywhere near the level that a high level breeder would. I understand some people can only afford a BYB, but at that point, I would highly suggest a rescue. There's still a lot of puppies that need rescuing as well.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Nobody looks down on anyone with a BYB because they purchased the pup before they had the knowledge from this forum. And of course people here admire those who rescue dogs and thank them.

This is also a breed forum, and the breed is the GSD. What makes the GSD special is the SV - the parent breed organization in Germany - has stricter breeding standards than any other breed organization in the world. If the SV nor the GSD breeding system exists, over time, the GSD will just become your average pet breed. 

Now there is nothing wrong about pets and pet breeds, but what makes the GSD such an exceptional pet or companion animal is precisely because it is the most versatile utility working dog breed in the world. And it only remains a working dog breed because of high breeding standards. My definition of a BYB is someone who breeds without following those standards at least in spirit if not on paper.


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## lily's master (Jul 16, 2012)

We have two dogs in our family, the beagle is my husbands and came from a byb. The other is my GSD who came from a byb by accident(female went into heat and they didnt seperate from male intime). The beagle has no end to health problems, thyroid medication, bad hips and elbows, when she walks her back legs turn in so that her back paws are facing each other front on,her spine is bowed in, she has temperment issues, I am not sure if it is due to not being trained or if its because of byb or both. She snaps at the kids, snaps at my dog, runs away anytime you try to play with her or train her, is unpredodictable. With lily we got lucky(so far) shes had great health but shes not quite 2 yrs yet so that could change, her temperment is great, she is a very loveing easily trainable dog, she always seems focused on her pack, ready to work and train anytime. Lily was my first dog and I didnt know much about dogs when I got her, I just saw an add on craigslist for free GSD and went that day and got one, now that I know more I think in the future I would be more careful about where and who I get my animals from.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

hmasummers said:


> Very good points!!
> So basically making sure you purchase a puppy from a breeder is just more likely to get a good dog, and that the breed standard is kept. Whereas with a BYB some may just be mass producing puppies to make money?


Basically. I got my boy from a BYB, and I've seen a little bit of the bad that can come. He's very reactive and I'm sure that comes somewhat from his parents. Sire was aggressive and the dam couldn't be touched at all either. This was before I found this forum and found that there's much more to dogs than training them to sit.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JackandMattie said:


> And I rescued all three of my (malnourished, overbred, unsocialized, fearful, aggressive, tick infested, heartworm positive, etc., etc.) dogs from puppymill/BYB backgrounds.
> 
> Just sayin'


Did you actually go through rescues for those dogs or did you purchase directly from the puppymill/BYB?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I prefer to define breeders using two terms - *Responsible *breeders and *Irresponsible *breeders.

*Responsible breeders*:


Take excellent PHYSICAL care of their breeding stock - proper food, fresh, clean water, exercise, housing and medial treatments when necessary
Take excellent MENTAL care of their breeding stock - proper training, stimulating their minds
Spends one-on-one time with each and every dog in order to know their strengths and weaknesses
Can show unbiased proof that their dogs are healthy - DNA testing, xrays, certificates from recognized authorities
Can show unbiased proof that their dogs have the proper attributes of their breed - titles, testimonials from recognized authorities, demos, etc.
Evaluate their litters based on what each buyer wants and will recommend the puppy (or puppies) that would be suite that new owners lifestyle and desires
Keep in touch with the new owners, answering questions that might come up and offering advice
Will take back a puppy (or adult dog) if the need arises. Many breeders have it written in their contract that they MUST be notified if the owner cannot keep the dog and that it must come back to them (or they must approve the prospective new owner)
Want to know how the pup develops so they can evaluate that breeding and use that knowledge to help them determine future breedings


*Irresponsible breeders*:


Take minimal PHYSICAL care of their breeding stock - enough food to survive (sometimes just barely), water (often of dubious quality), little to no exercise (as they are often left in runs 24/7), bare minimum housing and often no medical care (as that costs money and cuts into their profits)
Take little to no MENTAL care of their breeding stock - no training
Most often the only contact their dogs get are at feeding time and breeding time - most dogs aren't even named or the owner can't remember the names
Will TELL you their dogs are health - but have nothing to back it up. Most of their breeding stock are only seen by vets when necessary (for shots or injuries).
Most don't even know what the proper attributes ARE for the breeds they have
Take the cash and let you pick any puppy
Won't answer the phone or emails once the deal is done
Won't answer the phone or emails once the deal is done
Could care less how the pups develop


To me it all comes down to this:


Responsible breeders are in it for the love of their breed.


Irresponsible breeders are in it for the love of the money.




I know many Responsible breeders that do it in their back yard.


I also know several Irresponsible breeders that have huge facilities with high end kennel runs and fancy advertising and all the bells and whistles - just for the money.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Many people seem to label BYBs based on how the dogs turn out after the fact and not the breeders' intent or what they've put into producing nice dogs. Unfortunately even the most careful, experienced breeders might end up with a puppy that is overly sharp or aggressive or has a health problem.

I do not disagree with stacking the deck in favor of temperament and health, however the way I see it there are either dogs I'd purchase and dogs I wouldn't. Whether or not I'd purchase a dog is not a black and white decision based on a checklist of factors but me weighing the overall picture and that has to be done on an individual litter/breeder basis, at least for me.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

My previous two dogs were from BYB

The first I got from the humane society at 8 years old. A "breeder" dropped off two cocker spaniels, both in such poor condition that one passed away just a few days later. Alex was there for several weeks, he had a hernia, skin condition, and a cherry eye which apparently someone had "fixed" but ended up botching it, his knee would randomly pop out, and his ears were so calcified that even an othoscope couldn't be used to see the middle ear. All signs of neglect though he was such a sweet dog even the shelter staff nicknamed him "cuddle bug." 

He was used a stud until his health became poor and then he was dumped off at the shelter without a backwards glance, Alex was very lucky the shelter deemed him worthy enough to treat rather than just euthanize him. When I adopted him I had no idea the uphill battle I would face with his health, especially financially. His ears alone were so bad they recommended a total ear canal ablation which was quoted to me at $3000. He was on two medications for his eyes and another two for his ears, his skin condition was treated with good food and proper grooming. He went deaf from the calcification, thankfully he was smart and I was able to use hand signals to communicate with him but I had to be his ears and watch out for him at all times.

I was very attached to Alex and when I had to put him down due to health complications (he got an ear infection which was untreatable due to the calcification and he was in severe pain) it really shattered me. I've been around dogs my entire life but this was MY first dog and I had to make the decision rather than just accept my parent's decision. The day after I lost him my parents came to visit me and they saw how devastated I was, my mom's solution was to get another dog so she looked online until she found a breeder offering 9 week old miniature poodle puppies cheaply on a free classifieds website. I couldn't say no, so on we went to see these puppies.

The breeders had several dogs and cats roaming their houses, they seemed like decent enough people. But no pedigree so as far as I know they were breeding siblings, the parents had no health checks or certifications. I paid $380 for Jazzy, I was told to take her to a vet within 48 hours and if there were health concerns then they would take her back. She was dewormed and had her first shots; the vet didn't see anything obviously wrong with her so she became my dog. 

I love her completely but she has issues, she's a very nervous dog and will shake when she's around new things. She hates other animals getting into her space; she'll growl and snap at them if they get too close. She won't deliberately bite to hurt, just to get them to back off. I'm very careful with her joints and teeth, I feed her a premium food to keep her healthy and well, and she gets regular exercise and training. I'm hoping with management that she won't have any health issues but who knows. Do I regret getting her? Yes, I love her regardless of her issues but I know the money I paid for her went back into the breeders pocket probably to breed even more dogs. 

I will NEVER again get a dog from a BYB, the health issues of Alex and the mental issues of Jazzy are more than enough proof for me to know what they're doing is wrong. I will only support rescues, shelters, hobby breeders, or quality breeders who know what they're doing

A dog is an investment; they cost money to buy and money to maintain their health. Why would I skimp on the purchase fee for a life that is going to live with me for 10+ years hopefully? Pay $500 now but $10000 in vet and trainer fees later? Or pay $1500 for the purchase which includes a two year health and temperament warranty, a certified pedigree, and a lifetime of support from a breeder with years of experience? You do the math

I don't mean to belittle or attack you, but I can't condone that buying from BYB is ok.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The reasons have all been named, it is mostly because the majority of dogs with problems come from BYB, but this is not to say that the majority of BYB dogs have problems.

I got very lucky with my BYB as well. He's very well tempered, rock solid, never have any type of fear issues, extremely well driven with a wonderful off switch, and I just got his hips x-rayed and they're beautiful (the vet said we might get an excellent). He's only 2 generations removed from some very well thought out breeding though and the grandparents have some very big kennel names behind them that most of the forum wouldn't think twice about getting a dog from.

The reason people look down on it is just to not prolificate it in the United States. We have pretty much zero breeding standards. AKC will register anything that's out of AKC dogs and its not very hard to find an AKC bitch and dog to breed. The American public doesn't care about much except that AKC certificate...some don't even care that it's AKC and will accept some of the other smaller registries. So for every person that chooses not to go BYB due to this forum, or joining a dog club, that's one less person paying money to someone that's not doing it "right." And although we'll probably never get rid of the problem (there will always be a market for a $200 GSD), its nice to know you can make some difference.

Lauri's list is excellent...by that list my breeder is much more responsible than irresponsible. So I don't feel super terrible for going to them. Plus I got one **** of a dog out of them. Next time though (now that I know) I'm using someone that produces exactly what I'm looking for.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What's wrong with BYB's? Where to start...? Pretty much everything.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Omar Little said:


> I understand some people can only afford a BYB, but at that point, I would highly suggest a rescue. There's still a lot of puppies that need rescuing as well.


 
And where do you think the rescues came from?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Did you actually go through rescues for those dogs or did you purchase directly from the puppymill/BYB?


The weim through a rescue, Weimaraner Rescue of North Texas: WeimRescueTexas.org - Texas Dog Rescue - Adopt a Weimaraner.

The two GSDs were seized by the sheriff of a panhandle Texas county, along with over 200 other dogs, and the humane society made an urgent plea in the media for emergency fosters. I picked up my senior Mattie that day, and they called me the next day and asked whether I could take one more. That's when I took Jack.

After a several month long trial, the search and seizure were held improper, and the judge ordered all the hundreds of dogs returned. At that point I drove my two fosters up to the breeder and negotiated a purchase. I know I can catch some flak for that, but I still consider them rescues, considering the deplorable condition they were in when they came to me. Some people refused to make the purchase...but all I saw that afternoon were dozens of dogs being returned and the lady fretting about how dog food was $800/pallette and they didn't know how they were going to manage it so quickly. I have no idea whether my $700 went to dog food, but I can only hope it did. Even when there's evidence to the contrary, I try my best to believe in the good in folks...and if I helped the other dogs, well, that was my goal after all. If I didn't, at least Mattie can walk today and Jack is no longer starving.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

llombardo said:


> And where do you think the rescues came from?


The difference is the money is going to the rescue who is cleaning up the mess, rather then to the breeder who is causing it. Money is only going to encourage the problem rather then the solution in that case


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The reason most people go back to a BYB is that their first, second, third, ect dog from a BYB didn't have any issues. So they don't see a reason to go to a "responsible breeder" that charges 5 times more for a dog.

If you bought dogs your whole life for $200, and none of them had any problems, lived to be 12+ years old, what would be the motivation for going to a better/more knowledgeable breeder and paying them $1000+? None...unless somehow you happen to learn about the difference.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> The difference is the money is going to the rescue who is cleaning up the mess, rather then to the breeder who is causing it. Money is only going to encourage the problem rather then the solution in that case


 
But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


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## TAN+ZAK (Nov 22, 2012)

only one of my GSDs came from a top class breeder ,probably not allowed to name him here, but i would never go down that route again.She had to be put to sleep at 6 months on the advice of 2 different vets,we sought a second opinion as we couldnt believe nothing could be done for her ,we were fully insured so cost didnt come into it.She was registerd as Greenstan Lori , her mother was Greenstan Fanta her dad was the 2000 champion GSD.Her mum was taken to Belgium to be mated under the pet passport scheme.Dad apparently had A stamp hips.Maybe not as good as UK hip scoring ?Anyhow vet said to contact breeder as none of litter should be bred from and he said its just one of those things,he had kept 2 of the 4 pups for breeding,no apology no refund no promise the others wouldnt be bred from.He had 28 breeding bitches in purpose built facilities.So contacted the UK KC next apparently nothing they could do to stop the other pups being bred from , would have thought a call from them to a breeder may have made him think twice.So i would only buy from family pets


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

llombardo said:


> But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


And since it's obviously not the dog's fault, who's fault is it that these dogs are suffering? The rescues/shelters housing these dogs or the breeders that are breeding these dogs?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'll give you another example.

My brother-in-law and sister live in a subdivision, one of their neighbors has a purebred CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered female weimaraner, then they purchased a chocolate doberman male puppy from a BYB. They didn't have a fenced in yard and allowed their dogs to roam the subdivision and people became upset. So they were required to install a fence but they didn't have the money so they looked at the two dogs who were both intact and decided to breed the dogs to make money! So they ended up with mixed breed puppies which they sold for $600 each.

The plan was to breed them once and use the money to pay for the fence then use the rest to spay the female. Well they struggled to find homes for the puppies, finally they were all gone and months later lo and behold the female was pregnant again. They claimed it was a "oops" litter but considering the female was supposed to be spayed as soon as possible after the puppies left...do you really believe them? Now they have more puppies to try and get rid of, they're asking $600 again and now apparently are planning on keeping a puppy.

I hope wholeheartedly they won't do something stupid like breed the mother to the puppy but then again they're not showing very good judgement in any form. Who knows, the puppy they're planning on keeping will look more weimaraner then doberman so if they breed the two they'll have a 3/4 weimaraner 1/4 dobie rather then a 50/50 mix.

They are true BYB - no care as to health, as to future homes, and simply no care as to breed as they're deliberately breeding two dogs for no reason outside of those are the two breeds they currently own


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> And where do you think the rescues came from?


Are you hinting that dogs shouldn't be rescued from shelters?


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Are you sure you aren't confusing Back Yard Breeder with Hobby Breeder? They both have dogs in their back yards.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

llombardo said:


> But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


If one is going to use the argument that they are saving the dog then they should purchase the brood bitch, not the puppies. But no, people just want the cute puppy and then justify it after the fact. Then just say I purchased the puppy from X breeder because that's the dog I wanted and not try to justify the purchase.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


I think the point of not supporting the BYB is that they realize its not as easy as they thought to sell off the puppies and make the $3000-$5000 they thought they would make in 2 months of "work." That way they think harder next time and don't breed at all because they have learned the lesson of the free-market.

True...the price of that is the dogs suffering but that's just what happens when stupid people make stupid decisions.

Sadly...its way too easy to sell off 6 week old GSD puppies at 300-500 a pop when the reputable breeders are charging 1500-3000. But the point remains...if just a few people in an area start passing up that BYB breeder, more will follow, and soon they won't breed because they won't sell. But that line of thinking is optimistic, its a perfect world scenario.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

The only defensible reason I have heard from people buying from a BYB other than ignorance is "I can't afford a $1,000+ puppy". 

My response to that is getting a dog from rescue costs even less than getting a BYB puppy. Sometimes, there are even puppies or young dogs in rescue. One can also be more certain of present temperament and health from a rescue dog than the unknown future from a BYB puppy.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I think the point of not supporting the BYB is that they realize its not as easy as they thought to sell off the puppies and make the $3000-$5000 they thought they would make in 2 months of "work." That way they think harder next time and don't breed at all because they have learned the lesson of the free-market.
> 
> True...the price of that is the dogs suffering but that's just what happens when stupid people make stupid decisions.
> 
> Sadly...its way too easy to sell off 6 week old GSD puppies at 300-500 a pop when the reputable breeders are charging 1500-3000. But the point remains...if just a few people in an area start passing up that BYB breeder, more will follow, and soon they won't breed because they won't sell. But that line of thinking is optimistic, its a perfect world scenario.


Not to mention that our society loves a "deal." The person can walk away thinking: "Hey I only paid $500 for a purebred GSD, no papers but I saw the parents so of course it's a purebred. I don't understand why you paid $1500 for yours. Mine is just as good"


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that just as getting a "bad" puppy/dog from a reputable breeder is simply bad luck on the part of the new owner, getting a "good" puppy/dog from a bad breeder is just as simply good luck on the part of the new owner. 

I am beginning to wonder if perhaps the term "back yard breeder" is becoming so overused and misunderstood that is is all but useless at this point. I have heard BYB used to describe puppy mills, hobby breeders who don't have a Big Name Kennel operation, owners of pet dogs who bred to other pet dogs, anyone who doesn't have a website, anyone who does have a website, anyone who makes money off their breeding or anyone who doesn't make money off their breeding. This lack of clarity is evident right here on this BB. 

I have started to define _my_ version of a back yard breeder as anyone who lacks purpose beyond the dogs right in front of them at that moment in time ("My dog is a great pet, and the puppies in this litter will also be great pets because my dog is a great pet, so the puppies in this litter..." in an endless loop that begins and ends with the animals right in front of them at that moment), and is uneducated/uninterested regarding what the lines have produced in the past and what the lines will produce in the future. 

There are absolutely people who luck into great pets from less than great breeders. These are the average puppy buyers who don't look at anything beyond AKC registration (maybe) and a clean living environment for the puppies to decide that they have done their due diligence and all is good.

There are absolutely buyers who have enough knowledge about the breed to look at a litter of puppies and have a good idea of what to expect, regardless of how uneducated the actual breeder might be.

Most of us don't have that kind of luck, or that amount of experience. So we look for the best breeder possible and make use of their experience and knowledge. That all helps to increase the chances that our puppy/dog will be a wonderful addition to our lives, and if something were to go wrong they can either guide us through or make it right in some way.

Not everyone who talks a good game actually knows what they are talking about. One way to gauge how well they walk their talk is to dig down into their experience. Are they out there in some venue, working and training their dogs? I have a family and my dogs are expected to put up with a whole lot. If I wanted a great companion, would I buy from the breeder who says, "Well, I know she is a great pet because she has never bitten anyone" or would I buy from the person who says, "She was easy to train and never flinched at the big obedience trials, as you can see from her scores, and she lives with children and other pets and has never had a problem..."? Shoot, look at a couple of the breeders here on this BB. They make all the right noises, and are looked up to as experts by many of the less experienced owners here. But some of the things they say are mind boggling to more experienced people. And they don't do much to walk their talk in real life. 

So forget the labels. Is the breeder in question educated on the breed from real world experience (and, no, a subscription to Dog Fancy does not cut it, and having registered dogs does not prove anything) and do they test that knowledge by getting out and doing something with their dog(s) that involves an opinion on quality from an objective third party (competition of some form *or* successfully working in some field such as LE)? If the answers are "Yes", then you can be reasonably sure that they can back their talk up and it won't matter if they breed in their back yard, their front yard or their bath tub. 

There is so much that goes into being an educated, reputable breeder. You can't just pin everything on one aspect. It is the entire picture that should be examined.
Sheilah


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Not to mention that our society loves a "deal." The person can walk away thinking: "Hey I only paid $500 for a purebred GSD, no papers but I saw the parents so of course it's a purebred. I don't understand why you paid $1500 for yours. Mine is just as good"


Even papers aren't that expensive...I got mine for $500 and he's got AKC registration on him. I think you've got to be completely ignorant, or inept to not be able to find an AKC registered liter somewhere close by for a GSD...they're the 2nd most popular registered breed!

And yeah...unless you're doing dog sport, conformation, or anything beyond having a pet...a $500 GSD is just as good as a $1500 GSD. Most people won't notice any difference.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

llombardo said:


> But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


Well, if the BYB isn't making any money off the litters they produce, and if breeding becomes more of a negative than a positive (i.e., nobody buys the puppies and they have to pay to surrender to the shelter, neighbors complain about noise, etc.) you can bet that the BYB will get the point.
Sheilah


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

martemchik said:


> And yeah...unless you're doing dog sport, conformation, or anything beyond having a pet...a $500 GSD is just as good as a $1500 GSD. Most people won't notice any difference.


Well the $500 GSD may not have been bred with as much care to prevent defects such as bad hips, back, nerves etc. and is more likely to wind up being that $20,000 GSD  . 

I talked a teammout of out breeding her long coat cryptorchid with marginal hips after I explained how it would not be good even though he is an awesome individual dog with a good pedigree - Who is there to talk the backyard breeder out of that decision? FYI - retained testicles cost a lot more money than regular ones to remove as it is abdominal surgery and they are at high cancer risk of not removed. Just turned down an offer to breed my own operational cadaver dog to an operational narcotics dog because no x-rays yet and I want to have a lot more information before even considering.

The $1500 GSD could have problems, but the deck is stacked better when somebody knows what they are doing.

I have never known anyone to buy a $5000 puppy. I guess it happens somewhere in the world of show dogs but not working lines.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

martemchik said:


> And yeah...unless you're doing dog sport, conformation, or anything beyond having a pet...a $500 GSD is just as good as a $1500 GSD. Most people won't notice any difference.


Until you have a problem and discover that the breeder you purchased your $500 puppy from doesn't know Jack about how to help you. Remember, you are not just paying for a puppy, you are also paying for the breeder's knowledge. 
Sheilah


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

sit said:


> Not everyone who talks a good game actually knows what they are talking about. One way to gauge how well they walk their talk is to dig down into their experience. Are they out there in some venue, working and training their dogs? I have a family and my dogs are expected to put up with a whole lot. If I wanted a great companion, would I buy from the breeder who says, "Well, I know she is a great pet because she has never bitten anyone" or would I buy from the person who says, "She was easy to train and never flinched at the big obedience trials, as you can see from her scores, and she lives with children and other pets and has never had a problem..."? Shoot, look at a couple of the breeders here on this BB. They make all the right noises, and are looked up to as experts by many of the less experienced owners here. But some of the things they say are mind boggling to more experienced people. And they don't do much to walk their talk in real life.


But you're assuming people actually care that the breeder works their dog or shows their dog. To the average person...who wants a pet...all that means is that the person is going to charge more for puppies in order to support their hobby (showing/trialing/training).

Joe Shmo thinks...I want a pet, so if I get a dog from a breeder who can prove to me his dogs are great pets...I'll get a great pet. Why do I need a dog that bites people? Or can track for a mile? Or has gotten a conformation championship?

BTW...I'm bringing these points up because I thought that same way 2.5 years ago...I didn't want to pay someone $1000 more dollars because THEIR dog was a champion or had a whole bunch of titles I knew NOTHING about.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

martemchik said:


> But you're assuming people actually care that the breeder works their dog or shows their dog. To the average person...who wants a pet...all that means is that the person is going to charge more for puppies in order to support their hobby (showing/trialing/training).


For me it all comes back to education. I think we all have a responsibility to share our experiences and learning process with others. So it isn't so much a question of assuming that they care about those things, it is a question of teaching why they should care about those things.
Sheilah


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## yote54 (Nov 22, 2011)

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, not being a breeder. I have had dogs for years just as companion animals, mostly rescues. I have purchased exactly two pups in my lifetime. I bought my most recent 4 mo. old pup for $500 from what some would say is a BYB. My first rule, learned with race horses, is look at the individual. I have had rescues and, maybe I've been lucky but had only one that thought I was going to take him back to his 'real' home and had to find a new home for him on a farm. If I was going to buy a pup, I look at the individual, then the parents. I guess if you plan to breed down the road, pedigree is a consideration, but if you don't have the physical and mental soundess, paper is just paper. IMO there are good BYB out there, you just have to be cautious.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

martemchik said:


> Joe Shmo thinks...I want a pet, so if I get a dog from a breeder who can prove to me his dogs are great pets...I'll get a great pet. Why do I need a dog that bites people? Or can track for a mile? Or has gotten a conformation championship?


Joe Schmo can make an uniformed decision and probably does on many things other than dogs....can't fix that. The attempts made to curtail puppy mills are targeted at ethical small scale hobby breeders, unfortunately and not the "big" USDA complian mill operations. 

Education is the best weapon as far as I'm concerned. Caveat Emptor. It is a 10-15 year purchase that will cost far in excess of the original purcase price to maintain no matter what.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I agree with Sheilah. Particularly about the uselessness of labels.

Responsible, Reputable, BYB, Hobby or any other label. These threads have shown over a period of time that the labels evoke different images and ideas in almost everyone.

Or here is another angle. What is someone who health tests, works their dogs, titles their dogs, has impeccably clean facilities but breeds strictly for sport or show. They may produce what they are aiming for but would those dogs still be alright in a pet home? Some would and some wouldn't.

The more dogs ( all dogs) are bred to extremes the greater the chance of new health or temperament problems arising. Like certain Bulldogs who have terrible respiratory problems.

In the U.S. it is legal in most cases for anyone to breed, and if there is money involved it will continue, in spite of what happens on any forum.

I agree with Nancy and Sheilah about education and I would not be opposed to legislation requiring the mom and pop breeders (really all breeders) having to pass some sort of knowledge test to be licensed to breed. With penalties for oops litters or unlicensed individuals.

We license all manner of other things why not dog breeding.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sheilah and Nancy...we're on the same page. I'm just telling it from the POV of the average American puppy buyer. Trust me, I'm all for education, that's why I said if we can prevent just one person from buying from a BYB we've educated and increased the chances of "shutting down" down that BYB. But I'm a realist, and I understand that those puppies will still probably get sold, and the BYB will still keep doing what they're doing.

Although that $500 dog does have a higher chance of becoming a $20000 dog, it doesn't happen all that often...and the reality is that it will probably get dumped long before they sink anything else into the dog. Like I've stated...the biggest reason BYB is still in business is that they dog get lucky more than they produce bad dogs. We (on this forum) just get to read all the bad stories...there are plenty of stories out there where people live perfectly happy and fine with their BYB dogs, that never have an issue.

My dog came from a breeding where neither parent was OFA, one Grandparent was OFA Good, and I believe 3 Great-Grandparents were OFA Good. I will post my x-ray as soon as I get OFA results and see what people say about them and how close they get to what my score actually is (could be a fun game), but from what the vet (a hip specialist in my area for over 40 years) said and from what I see...I'm not going to have any hip issues in the future.

So my point is that although you have a higher chance of having issues with a BYB dog...the majority of BYB dogs DO NOT have issues and live long, healthy, wonderful lives, and so those owners have no reason not to go back to a BYB and "over pay" for their next pup.

Jack's dad just laid it out pretty clearly...if there's money to be made...it will be made. And no...I would be opposed to any kind of legislation that requires testing. All that kind of legislation will do is set standards way too low anyways...remember they can't just say "for GSD this this and this needs to be shown" and "for breed x this this and this needs to be shown." The type of regulation that the SV provides Germany will never exist in the United States...we're not the type of people that like it when the government tells us what we can and can't do. The Germans have just accepted a very good system of monitoring dogs...it will never happen in America.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't think there are a glut of breeders improving the breed. 
I'd feel good if they could just keep it from totally falling apart.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

yote54 said:


> Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, not being a breeder. I have had dogs for years just as companion animals, mostly rescues. I have purchased exactly two pups in my lifetime. I bought my most recent 4 mo. old pup for $500 from what some would say is a BYB. My first rule, learned with race horses, is look at the individual. I have had rescues and, maybe I've been lucky but had only one that thought I was going to take him back to his 'real' home and had to find a new home for him on a farm. If I was going to buy a pup, I look at the individual, then the parents. I guess if you plan to breed down the road, pedigree is a consideration, but if you don't have the physical and mental soundess, paper is just paper. IMO there are good BYB out there, you just have to be cautious.


This was how I felt too, when I bought Echo. The guy loved his dogs and loved the breed. The dogs were very well taken care of and were very friendly. The 'individual' was great. The parents seemed great. However, because they didn't have papers, I knew absolutely nothing about their backgrounds. Zip.

My dog, while not fear aggressive, is otherwise a nerve bag. He's very skittish and overcoming his weak nerves that are most definitely a result of bad breeding has been a battle we've fought for his entire life. He also has health problems up the wazoo. That piece of paper, while it doesn't mean the dog will be quality by any stretch, does give you an idea of what kind of gene pool you're diving into by allowing you to track back through generations. Without that paper, for all I know, my dog's parents were brother and sister. I am NOT saying an AKC registration makes a quality dog at ALL- I'm just saying it allows you to do the research on the parents, grandparents, etc. Having dogs with papers but no health checks, temperament checks, etc, is a crap shoot. Having dogs with no health checks, no temperament checks, AND no papers is a total crap shoot. 

For the record- my dog is the only one from the litter of six who has not been rehomed/surrendered/ended up in a shelter. I had a lot of great resources in people who were VERY knowledgeable about the breed to help me fix the mistakes of an individual who was very well intentioned but did not have the knowledge of the breed, knowledge of genetics. With a lot of work, we've taken him from being extremely fearful to having his CGC and TDI, but it's still an uphill battle. He is most definitely NOT what a GSD should be in terms of personality at any rate. 

I'm a big advocate of rescue, and I'm aware that the same limitations are there in terms of not knowing squat about the dog's background-- it's just a matter of supporting a BYB or not. 

My experience with my dog has lead me to agree that there is a very strong distinction between BYB and Hobby breeder (I suppose the "responsible" vs "irresponsible") wording. Loving your pet dogs may make you a great pet owner, but it doesn't make you someone who should be breeding. You may think your dog is great, but you may not see certain temperament issues as being a problem (how many "oh look, my dog is so protective of me! He snarls at anyone who comes by, isn't that great?" threads do we see?). You may have no real idea what your dog's temperament is like because they don't do much else besides hang around your house and go hiking with you. Hobby breeders may not have a breeding operation and may be doing it out of their back yard, but they still take the time to title (or otherwise test temperament, be it in another venue), do health checks, research bloodlines and put a great deal of thought into who their pairing together. While I don't think titling is the be-all/end-all of temperament verification, and I don't think that absolutely no cracked dogs come from great breeders, I do think that the large chunk of aggression/bad nerves that give this breed a bad reputation are the result of people who are great "individuals" who really, really love their pets breeding dogs they really know nothing about.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> Jack's dad just laid it out pretty clearly...if there's money to be made...it will be made. And no...I would be opposed to any kind of legislation that requires testing. All that kind of legislation will do is set standards way too low anyways...remember they can't just say "for GSD this this and this needs to be shown" and "for breed x this this and this needs to be shown." The type of regulation that the SV provides Germany will never exist in the United States...we're not the type of people that like it when the government tells us what we can and can't do. The Germans have just accepted a very good system of monitoring dogs...it will never happen in America.


I'm talking about licensing for all dog breeders not breed specific.

Basic requirements to breed dogs.

When I was a kid I had racing pigeons and the city had strict ordinances on lot size. distance from property lines and buildings etc...

You need a license to drive, cut hair, massage therapists and on and on.

If you required a license and had to meet basic standards for your property and the care of dogs, I believe it would discourage a lot of people who just throw their pets together.

Penalties and fees would make it even less appealing to breed.

It wouldn't stop everything but if it even made a big dent in the problem to me it would be worth it.

A license would not affect good breeders.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Our local news agency posted on FB asking people whether they license their dogs, why or why not. The majority said no and gave excuses up and down. If the majority of people won't even license their dog, why would they follow the rules about additional licensing for breeding? It does affect good breeders because they are the ones that already follow the rules and now have to pay for additional licensing. It's not a terrible idea yet in reality, no one licenses their dogs already and no one enforces it here. We cannot even get streets plowed or salted after 18 inches of snow and we have a dozen public schools closing every year, let alone have local government policing dog breeding and expect 1) people to comply and 2) anything to ever be enforced.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The reason it would be enforced is people like most of the people on here would be turning them in when they bring their pets to wal-mart or advertise in the newspaper or Craigs list. Everybody in rescue and shelter would be complaining to law enforcement. Don't have a license to breed, your likely to get turned in.

No body goes around looking for licenses on peoples dogs but I'll bet they would watch for licenses on the breeders of Wal-Mart puppies.

Anyway it's just a thought. I don't think it would affect reputable breeders because most of those license fee are low enough that if you can't afford it you shouldn't be breeding anyway.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

martemchik said:


> So my point is that although you have a higher chance of having issues with a BYB dog...the majority of BYB dogs DO NOT have issues and live long, healthy, wonderful lives, and so those owners have no reason not to go back to a BYB and "over pay" for their next pup.


But can anyone say with any certainty that the majority of BYB dogs don't have issues? Or is it a case of the majority of BYB dogs are owned by people who are unaware of the issues their dog(s) have?

Think how many people on this BB mistake fear driven behavior for protection driven behavior? Or how many folks are surprised that their dog's hips are bad because it never took a lame step?

You can't know what you don't know. If someone doesn't have the knowledge base to identify something correctly to begin with, how can anyone say that some attribute is or isn't there? It doesn't matter if we are talking about owners or breeders here. If you don't have the knowledge to back something up, it is just empty talk. "My dog is healthy because there is nothing noticeably wrong" or "My dog has a great temperament because she has never bitten anyone". These attributes are never that black and white. 

I lost my boy Jackson last May to hermangiosarcoma. My neighbor came over to offer his condolences and he commented that Jackson had a long life, being a large breed dog. Jackson was only 8.5 years old when he died. But my neighbor didn't know what he didn't know. I wonder if he had owned Jackson and if he hadn't seen Jackson collapse, but had just found him dead, would he have put Jackson's death down to old age? And forever after the story would be how his BYB dog was healthy right up until the day he died of old age? 

Perception is critical. 
Sheilah


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## mackjordann (Mar 13, 2013)

I've seen a lot of GSDs before I got mine and you can definitely pick out the BYB from the ones that aren't. If you do get a BYB shep then It's kinda like hiring a non professional to fix your car who has little experience, yea it might be fixed and run but for how long? And what other problems will you run into later? 

Also there are no repeatable white shepherd breeders. After doing a lot of research and asking around there just isn't. Shepherds aren't supposed to be white. So for those who truly care about the breed they won't breed all white dogs.

Anyways, I just feel that why would you gamble on a cheap dog w.o warranty and breeder support and checked hips elbows ect. But probably most of the people on here will argue for BYB if they have one. From reading this you probably already guess that I do not have a BYB shepherd. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> The reason it would be enforced is people like most of the people on here would be turning them in when they bring their pets to wal-mart or advertise in the newspaper or Craigs list. Everybody in rescue and shelter would be complaining to law enforcement. Don't have a license to breed, your likely to get turned in.
> 
> No body goes around looking for licenses on peoples dogs but I'll bet they would watch for licenses on the breeders of Wal-Mart puppies.



I don't know....I don't bet they would. The only time I have *ever* been asked about my pets' licenses was when I accidentally got bit by my own dog in my own home and since I needed stitches and antibiotics, the Dr. was obligated to report it to the county and they verified the dog was licensed so nothing else was done. Even when I apply to local rescues and shelters I am never asked if my current animals are licensed or to show the license. When the rescue I foster for did a home check they never asked to see my dog licenses. I have no idea if the rest of the people on my flyball team license their dogs. In fact I know at least two of them are breaking a local rule about how many dogs you can have and they have too many. No one ever checks these things (even though I personally always stay in compliance) so I don't see why anyone would check for additional licenses either.


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## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I prefer to define breeders using two terms - *Responsible *breeders and *Irresponsible *breeders.
> 
> *Responsible breeders*:
> 
> ...


Very well stated!! I would say my breeder was responsible although she did not have xrays etc!! Makes me feel much better!!


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## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

Maybe I am confused on what the term back yard breeder means? The lady I got my puppy from had only two dogs, I see people on here writting about puppies in cages etc. I thought that was a puppy mill!! What is a back yard breeder vs a hobby breeder?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well you very well may be right.

People will continue to ruminate about the dreaded BYB over and over, like they have been doing for the couple of years I've been on here but while the idea of education is sound, it's not likely to happen.

The people who will be buying their puppies or getting them free in front of kmart today won't be on dog forums getting educated. Nor will the people selling or giving the pups away.

Licensing breeders was just something concrete and may be dumb and unenforceable but just ruminating about BYBs isn't doing anything.

It would be nice if someone came up with a plan to at least make it more difficult.

My wife an I once saw some cute little mutt puppies in front of Target that were free. We went back for something a few hours later and they only had 2 out of about 8 left.
I wonder how long those puppies lasted in their new homes.

Who goes to Target for some underwear or something and goes home with a puppy?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you care about the integrity of the GSD or any other breed
i don't think buying from a byb is a good idea. if standards
or quality mean anything you have a better chance of having that
from a reputable breeder. besides when you buy from a reputable
breeder who's dogs have all of the titles, test, years of proven
litters you can look down on all of those not worthy GSD's. lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

hmasummers said:


> Maybe I am confused on what the term back yard breeder means? The lady I got my puppy from had only two dogs, I see people on here writting about puppies in cages etc. I thought that was a puppy mill!! What is a back yard breeder vs a hobby breeder?


In my mind the BYB can be a good dog owner but not necessarily have knowledge of the breed, nor screen properly for issues, and has not subjected their dog to objective reviews by other people to assess the suitability as breeding stock.

Of course there are also those who just get dogs and breed to make money and don't care about the dogs.

The hobby breeder can be small as well and usually still has dogs raised in the home but works or shows their dogs or trains them at least in some way so they know what their stock is capable of and has them evaluated both healthwise and structure wise etc. They study and understand the pedigrees etc.

I don't think it is all black and white - who is BYB who is hobby - but more a continuum. If you read some of the bloodlines and pedigrees threads you see it is not as simple as this nice dog + this nice dog = these nice puppies. Sometimes combinations just were not meant to be. A studious hobby breeder would have researched all this. Well, that is what I think.


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## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well you very well may be right.
> 
> People will continue to ruminate about the dreaded BYB over and over, like they have been doing for the couple of years I've been on here but while the idea of education is sound, it's not likely to happen.
> 
> ...


 
This is very true! Puppies should not be an impulse buy!!


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## hmasummers (Mar 26, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> if you care about the integrity of the GSD or any other breed
> i don't think buying from a byb is a good idea. if standards
> or quality mean anything you have a better chance of having that
> from a reputable breeder. besides when you buy from a reputable
> ...


This is true!! LOL!! :wild:


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I guess I will just give my opinion on the original question "what is wrong with a BYB?"

What is wrong is: The future of the breed is not their MAIN focus. Anyone who breeds for reasons other than preserving the GSD is doing it wrong IMO. And it seems like there are a whole lot of people doing it wrong- which is just going to destroy this breed forever. There is nothing wrong with having a pet from a BYB, but there is something wrong with BYB practices continuing, and the only way to put a stop to it is to stand up for the breed and buy from someone who does ALL the work. Not just puts two purebreds together. Not someone who just does OFA. Not someone who JUST has a drop dead gorgeous dog that's a great pet. And not someone who just has seemingly healthy, happy pets and a positive attitude. If you really care about the future of the GSD, seek out a breeder who puts their heart, soul, time, and resources to bring EVERYTHING they possibly can forward- out of their dogs, and into the next generation. I am one of those people who still wants to have a GSD when I'm 60!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> . besides when you buy from a reputable
> breeder who's dogs have all of the titles, test, years of proven
> litters you can look down on all of those not worthy GSD's. lol.



Not worthy GSD's? Every GSD is worthy...its the owners that aren't, whether their dog might have titles or not.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

mackjordann said:


> Also there are no repeatable white shepherd breeders. After doing a lot of research and asking around there just isn't. Shepherds aren't supposed to be white. So for those who truly care about the breed they won't breed all white dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 That's so not true. I can give you the name of about 5 different reputable WGSD kennels if you'd like. White is just a masking gene. There's no difference between my white dog and your sable dog. A good WGSD kennel breeds to the set GSD standard outside of color; Good/Excellent OFA scores, Temperment, working ability, size, ect.

But back to topic: 

It all depends on what your definition of a BYB is. Laurie & The Gang said it perfectly. My definition of a BYB is someone who could care less about their dogs and who are just trying to make a buck. Just like others, I've seen someone who'd I consider to be an Irresponsible Breeder who has the Big Commercial Kennel with the super website and pretty looking dogs who sell their dogs at a thousand dollars or more a piece, but a Responsible Breeder who only has two sets of breeding dogs whom they only breed once a year and work out of their home and never get past breaking even.

I don't think there's a solid guarentee on health when it comes to a "Well Bred" dog vs a "BYB Dog". I've known SummaDogs who live long, healthy lives and PBs who die at 5. Same thing with HD. A friend had a GSD when we were in school. The dog was bought for show purposes and besides being the most nervy/skittish dog I've ever met, she had severe HD by the time she was five. Both hips were replaced and the dog lived another three years before some sort of cancer took the dog.

I agree, it stacks the deck in your favor, but no matter what you do or whom you buy from, in the end it comes down to sheer luck. I would never completely disregard a 'BYB', but I would look into it as far as I could. I bought a PB GSD because I wanted the deck to be stacked in the favor of SAR and other 'work'. I should've paid a pretty penny for him, but I got lucky. My next GSD is also going to be bought from a Reputable Breeder because I want to do SAR or SchH, but if I was just looking for a pet dog, I wouldn't hesitate to go to a rescue or what some would consider a BYB.

I also believe that people go the 'BYB' route because it's so hard to get a dog from a rescue. Every day, people are turned down for, IMHO, silly reasons; no fence, lives in an apartment/condo/co-op, has an un-speutered dog even though the incoming dog is already speutered, uses the 'wrong' style collar, ect. If I was looking for a 'pet' dog and multiple rescues and shelters have turned me down for 'silly' reasons, I'd probably go the route of what might be considered to be a BYB by some.


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## coloradogsd1 (Mar 17, 2013)

So your buying a 500 loaded gun.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I hate that attitude of "non worthy GSDs" Sorry but thats just BS they are still dogs and I have seen some nasty health problems in dog from fancy expensive bloodlines too. A title on the bitch or sire does not mean the pup is going to be fantastic - it just gives you a better chance at getting a great dog. 
It's like a horse, you can have the fanciest bloodlines in the world, yet the cola can still have crooked legs, or be unridable or have a ****ty temperament. 

I own 2 BYB dogs, one I bought because I didn't know better, she really was an impulse buy too. The people that bred her had a pet bitch and the son wanted a pup from her. So they decided to breed one litter and they happened to bring 2 of the puppies into my work on my birthday (worst timing ever). I had been wanting a GSD all my live but had only just moved out of home and did not have a ton of money to spend. 
So they asked me if I wanted to come and have a look at all the pups - ok who says no to looking at puppies  
I ended up buying a female and got totally lucky  Awesome temperament, well put together and no health issues. (I do think her sire might have been a working line dog tho)

The 2nd one I got I really should not have bought - I was stupid, I'd just lost my first dog (a big Mastiff cross) and the GSD was fretting really badly and I had recently broken up with a long term partner so once again not much money. 
A workmate had just bought one of the pups and told me about them. The owner of the bitch (who came from a "proper" breeder and had papers) used to breed poodles and they decided the GSD should have a litter (honestly I think they just wanted to make some quick money but they DID care for the puppies really well) so they mated her to a male they knew though the GSD club without papers.

Hex is a good dog, I love him to bits but I honestly wish I had not bought him. He's not the kind of dog I wanted and he did have some health issues (elbow dysplacia). But he's my dog now and I'm not going to give him away because of that, I just have to work with him, at least he's teaching me a lot about training "difficult" stubborn dogs LOL

I have already chosen the breeder for my next dog (which is at least another year away anyway) and it's going to be a working line dog from a very reputable kennel. 

You live and you learn  

I don't think all BYB are bad and I don't think all "registered" breeders are good. 

I know a supposedly "reputable" registered breeder who really does not treat her dogs well - this woman took her last litter of puppies down to the dog training session she was holding then they were 4 weeks old - to socialise them. 
She also doesn't feed her dogs well, the bitches are often skin and bone. Yet she went through all the health checks , x-rays etc. But who's the better breeder? the family who bred one litter of pups, raised them in the house with the family and cared for them really well 
Or the person who did all the health checks yet forgets to feed the dogs and exposes the pups to diseases by "socialising" them in a training class?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Honestly, my best dog to this day is STILL my $250 "BYB" dog. And, again, with all honesty, I quite like the arrangement I've got with him. I paid for him, he's mine, I do what I want with him. Nobody else to interfere.

My "well bred" dogs I've had:
A dog with HD
A dog with ED who is also cross eyed (seriously) and a bit neurotic
A dog with beyond poor temperament who was also missing three teeth
A bitch that is too nervy to show and is missing a tooth. (The breeder is standing behind her dog)

Do I keep trying with the well bred dogs? Yes. But if I could find another dog like Mouse and not have to shell out thousands to do it? Totally would.


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## mackjordann (Mar 13, 2013)

I agree totally, with doggiedad

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Omar Little said:


> Either for money or as a hobby, not normally breeding for the standard or not anywhere near the level that a high level breeder would. I understand some people can only afford a BYB, but at that point, I would highly suggest a rescue. There's still a lot of puppies that need rescuing as well.


funny thing... according to SV rules and regulations, breeders are supposed to be small hobby breeders!

just because you are a hobby breeder doesn't mean you produce crap, you can be more high end than any other breeder who supposedly is just that. 


And just because you buy from a "high end breeder" who has figured it all out, doesn't mean you get a bad hand of genetics. 

And sometimes, that super small hobby breeder is better than one of those supposedly high end, large breeding operations that are nothing but a puppy mill with a paint job!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

You could get lucky and get my Zeke, who has an amazing temperament, is a good looking dog, AKC registered, but has some minor genetic defects. 

Or you could get my Luther, extreme fear aggression, separation anxiety, stress colitis, euthanize at 3 years of age because of aggression issues that could neither be fixed through training, behavior therapy, or even medication. His bitch was aggressive, and bred only because she was a purebred GSD from "champion" lines.

End of the day, you're paying people and supporting unethical practices. With no health testing, yeah they may LOVE their dogs, but should they BREED them? They could be producing healthy dogs. Or they could be producing dogs with severe HD and DM and etc... I'll be dead honest, of all the GSDs I see in my clinic, every single one of them a BYB dog, Zeke is the ONLY one I would even remotely deem as "healthy". They're all plagued with joint and elbow problems, hot spots, dandruff, allergies. Don't even get me started on temperament. Even the sweetest of them are still jumpy/skittish. The most recent GSD we had in our clinic? Bilateral cryptorchid, umbilical hernia, and giant mass - at <2 years of age.

And at the end of the day, they're doing a disservice to the breed! Because you should be breeding to keep true. I'm not talking about going to some top notch, large kennel. But at least produce stable, strong dogs capable of doing a decent day's work. Zeke is great, but he's scared of the vaccuum! He's not going to be the next great protection dog. Most BYB dogs are NOT capable of doing real work, no matter how much their owner's are biased and blinded by love. Let's be realistic.... I see it time and time again "Nuh uh, my dog could do that and this and that!" Fine then, PROVE IT. Easy to say, harder to follow through. I'm not naive about Zeke. I know his limitations.

Why not just go to a shelter and adopt a GSD instead of paying people for bad choices?


I paid a pretty penny for Berlin because after Luther, I wanted a GOOD dog. I didn't want to gamble. I could of rescued a dog and gotten a great dog. I could of also gotten a sketchy fear aggressive dog. And trust me, some of you may of gotten lucky (or you're being extremely naive), but I would honestly say 80% or more of the "poorly bred" german shepherds I see have temperament and health issues. Most of them being temperament. BTW Berlin didn't come from some huge kennel. She has 4 breeding dogs at the moment


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

llombardo said:


> But in the end it doesn't matter, because its the dogs that are suffering in either situation. So okay lets not support BYB's and that litter goes to the pound where half are put to sleep and the others live in cages until they find homes?? I'm sorry, this gets me sick, but there is no way that its the animals fault...how many have to die before either side gets the point?


I couldn't agree more. It's one thing that people don't want to support puppy mills or irresponsible breeders. But, when talking about the dogs that are being "produced" by BYB or puppy mills, people always make it sound as if you will end up with an unhealthy/unsound mess of a dog. But apparently, after countless owners and shelter stays, that same dog is absolutely fine, when it's rescued? I've never understood the logic. 

Sad, because BYB and puppy mill dogs need a good and experienced owner as much or even more than a well bred dog. The puppies don't care if you "support" puppy mills with your money. Those dogs will suffer until we have better laws and regulations. Instead of boycotting those dogs, why not boycott the AKC? I don't have any of my dogs registered, because I don't agree with the fact that they take money from puppy mills and BYB. 

So, if people are so outspoken when it comes to irresponsible breeding, why would you support the AKC with your money, when they clearly benefit from people who mass produce dogs?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am not going to boycott the AKC because they contribute heavily to volunteer search and rescue teams and keep us all informed concerning breed bashing legilslation and promote education and dog training.

They are simply a registry, not the breed police and honestly I would rather have it that way than be controlled, like the SV since the prevailing American show type is not the type I want.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Jocoyn, apparently 80% of the AKC's income stems from puppy mills. Personally, I would not boycott the puppies, but organizations who enable the mass production of dogs. That's just my personal take on this matter. Regardless of what good the AKC does, I don't like where their income is coming from.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sitz&Platz said:


> I couldn't agree more. It's one thing that people don't want to support puppy mills or irresponsible breeders. But, when talking about the dogs that are being "produced" by BYB or puppy mills, people always make it sound as if you will end up with an unhealthy/unsound mess of a dog. But apparently, after countless owners and shelter stays, that same dog is absolutely fine, when it's rescued? I've never understood the logic.
> 
> ?


the argument has nothing to do with the health of the dog. Instead, it is about discouraging the bad breeders from producing more puppies. Everyone here will tell you that not every BYB dog is going to be bad, just that there is a greater chance of having problems.

So, when you purchase this same puppy you have two options with your money -
* give the money to a rescue or shelter with will use your $$ to save the lives of more dogs
* give the money to a bad breeder who will turn around and breed another litter, piling 8,9, 10 more puppies into a world that is already over-run with pet quality dogs who need good homes


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> funny thing... according to SV rules and regulations, breeders are supposed to be small hobby breeders!
> 
> just because you are a hobby breeder doesn't mean you produce crap, you can be more high end than any other breeder who supposedly is just that.
> 
> ...


You are right, that is my bad... I'm using "hobby breeder" wrong. These terms get confusing and used so widely.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

My argument has everything to do with the health of the dog. I am against puppy mills and breeders who are trying to make a quick buck at the expense of their dogs. My issue is that people are quick to make negative statements about the dogs, stating that they're "not worthy" etc., how they don't want to support puppy mills.... My point is, if you feel so strongly about BYB and puppy mills, then boycott every organization that contributes to the suffering instead of just boycotting and badmouthing the dogs. 

I can't wrap my head around the fact that an organization that's "concerned about the well being of all dogs" would take money from puppy mills. But, that's my personal opinion on this matter. I would gladly take in ANY dog, regardless of the background to give it a good home. 

The dogs are not the problem, it's the people producing them. Nothing will change until breeding programs are regulated to ensure proper standards. Not buying a puppy at the pet store will not solve the problem for that particular dog sitting in the cage. That puppy has a good chance being purchased as a gift and end up in a shelter. So, why not give it a good home with an experienced responsible owner? In order for a boycott to work, everybody would have to stop purchasing irresponsibly bred dogs, and that will simply not happen. 

Again, personally, I can not tell anybody not to purchase a BYB or pet store puppy, because I hope that every dog, regardless of how it was bred, can find a loving home. To me, every dog is worthy enough to experience being loved and cared for. So, by all means, if someone wants to get a BYB or puppy mill dog, I would tell them to go ahead and to give that dog a good home for the rest of its life. Having a different perspective on this issue does not mean that I agree with irresponsible breeding.

To me, the only solution is to enforce stronger breeding regulations, not boycotting the animal.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Even BYB technically is the wrong term. I know what it means, but technically every breeder has the pups grow up in their house and backyard. Where else would they grow up?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

how are rescues taking money from puppy mills? they aren't making a profit on puppy mill dogs. 
nothing will change until the general public speaks with their dollars and refuses to buy from anything other than a responsible breeder. End of story.

Yes, every dog is worthy of a loving home. That is what rescues do and why everyone here will tell you "if you can't afford the prices of a good breeder or if titles/registration/paperwork don't matter to you, get a rescue dog" That money goes into making sure that every dog out there gets the loving home that they deserve. Every dollar that goes to an irresponsible breeder only helps to insure that they will create more dogs that will have trouble finding loving forever homes.

So, take a pup "free to a good home" adopt from your local shelter or rescue. BUT for every person who hands money to a bad breeder, while you might give that 1 dog a loving home, you are insuring that that breeder will create 10 more just like it. What about those dogs?
Instead, wait. The majority of those same pups you looked at today will end up in a shelter/rescue in the future. Why? because they AREN'T going to be going to forever homes but "until the cuteness wears off" homes. Then, you get that exact same pup (just a little older) who still needs a loving home. The difference is that now your $$ will go towards providing vet care and foster homes for other dogs just like him, who have been abandoned and need homes. Instead of dooming another litter of dogs to the system while you save one, you will be helping save other dogs from the system while giving this one a forever home.

I see people selling dogs at our local wal-mart all the time. They don't care that it's illegal to sell dogs in that empty lot. They don't care that there is a widely publicized parvo problem surrounding that lot. They only care that lots of people see the cute little puppies and step up to pay them $100 and take the dogs off their hands. What happens to the dogs that don't get sold? The next week they are $75. The next $50. If there are any left after that, they are dumped at the shelter or along a back country road. Then the money from the pups they did sell goes into buying something nice for the humans while the Momma dog is bred again to earn money for Christmas presents or a nice trip for the family over Spring Break.

We aren't encouraging people to boycott the animal. We are encouraging people to not give money to people who will just turn around and make more of that exact same animal with no regard to when/if that pup will get a home or what type of home it will be.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

and for anyone promoting that we need to regulate breeding remember - all puppy mills are USDA inspected and government approved


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> The dogs are not the problem, it's the people producing them. *Nothing will change until breeding programs are regulated to ensure proper standards*. Not buying a puppy at the pet store will not solve the problem for that particular dog sitting in the cage. That puppy has a good chance being purchased as a gift and end up in a shelter. So, why not give it a good home with an experienced responsible owner?* In order for a boycott to work, everybody would have to stop purchasing irresponsibly bred dogs, and that will simply not happen*.


More regulations is not the answer, the answer is in your last sentence, but like you posted, it simply will not happen.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sitz&Platz said:


> To me, the only solution is to enforce stronger breeding regulations, not boycotting the animal.


The problem is, what would that look like.

Some of the regulations that have been talked about putting in place (for example USDA) would require puppies to be raised in concrete floored stalls, which are sterilized, etc. and mandate certain shot records etc. The small hobby breeder who raises the puppies in the home (where they should be raised) is SOL in that situation which favors treating puppies like livestock. IOW they would absolutely kill the Hobby breeders which is where I want my dog coming from - not from some large manufacturing facility.

What health records would you mandate? OFA? What about a dog with an A-stamp? DM testing? Well quite a few think the DM test is barking up the wrong genetic marker. 

How are you going to define a puppy mill? Obviously extreme abuse such as the dogs in cages upon cages and stuff that makes the news - but that is animal abuse and should be managed there.

What "titles" would you require a dog to have to be bred? That would leave out a lot of good breeding stock and cheapen titles because there would become ways to earn them under the table. What about working certifications? 

I just don't know what, specifically, you expect the AKC to *do* -- Honestly, I want them mucking around with my breed as little as possible - ensuring an accurate registration process would be all I would really want. DNA parentage testing perhaps (but I had not thought it out-I don't think that is generally the issue)

People need to be educated and accountable for their own purchases! It is just like that ridiculous labeling that has been taken to an extreme on products and devices like "don't plug in while standing in water" -- anybody dumb enough to stand in water and plug in an electric device, well, maybe they don't need to be in the gene pool.......


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Dainerra, so it's ok to rescue that pet store puppy once it goes to the shelter, but it's not ok to buy that same dog at the pet store while its still a puppy to give it a good home? That's your logic, but it's not mine. I don't disagree with the fact that your money supports irresponsible breeders when you purchase that puppy. But, they will be produced, sold and restocked regardless, unless we have stronger regulations. Until then, I would take in any dog, stray, BYB, pet store, rescue, because it's not the dogs that are faulty. It's the breeders.

I don't disagree with you, but that puppy sitting at the pet store is just as important to ME as the next generation of puppies that will be bred to replace it. The breeding will not stop just because we boycott buying puppies from irresponsible breeders as long as the breeders aren't stopped. 

If I told you that I was planning to go to to the pet store right now to pick up a puppy that will spend the rest of its life with me, and get the best food, care, training and love you can think of. Would you really tell me not to do that? Many rescues were pet store puppies that were bred by irresponsible people, sold to irresponsible owners and dumped at shelters. Why is it so terrible to break the cycle and rescue the puppy before it becomes a rescue? 

Our opinions are really not very different, but I do have a different approach. I don't like anybody who profits from breeding dogs or who dumps their dogs at shelters. But, the reality is that there will be breeding for profit, unless we change laws and breeding regulations. Until then, regardless of where your dog is from, treat them well and give them a good life.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This page shows how well the USDA is regulating millers in one state....

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Iowa-Animal-Welfare-Alliance/342314819129629?fref=ts


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> This page shows how well the USDA is regulating millers in one state....
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Iowa-Animal-Welfare-Alliance/342314819129629?fref=ts


....  :help:


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Jocoyn, I think the most important thing would be to regulate the number of dogs that can be bred. I don't want dogs to be treated like livestock, heck I don't want livestock to be treated the way it's currently being treated. 

I would expect any organization to inspect every breeding facility on a regular basis. And don't just license any BYB or puppy mill dog. I think it would take a team of GSD experts to come up with criteria in regards to health testing/training when it comes to licensing/breeding, but it wouldn't be impossible to have reasonable requirements in order for a dog to be AKC licensed or for a breeder to be USDA licensed. And, most importantly, it should be illegal to sell cats and dogs at pet stores. 

If the AKC only licensed a small number of dogs per year, and if selling dogs in pet stores was illegal, we would be well on our way to decrease the amount of dogs we have in shelters. 

What I cannot do, just from my moral set of beliefs, is to tell anybody to walk past that cage with the pet store puppy in it, and pretend that ignoring that dog will solve anything. I have to avoid pet stores that sell puppies, because I would sneak out with one of them each time I buy a bag of dog food. Next thing you know, I would be on "hoarders".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm so glad there are no pet stores in my area that allow pups to be sold, they give space for the rescues instead.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Sitz&Platz said:


> If I told you that I was planning to go to to the pet store right now to pick up a puppy that will spend the rest of its life with me, and get the best food, care, training and love you can think of. Would you really tell me not to do that? Many rescues were pet store puppies that were bred by irresponsible people, sold to irresponsible owners and dumped at shelters. Why is it so terrible to break the cycle and rescue the puppy before it becomes a rescue?


Madam, the main difference is where the money goes. You buy a poor puppy from a puppy mill or a BYB and the money goes to the proprietors which encourages them to keep doing it. I'm sure you yourself can't buy all the pet store dogs in the world.

Absolutely, you sh/d wait until that pet store puppy goes to a shelter or rescue! Then your money goes to supporting the shelter or rescue. In a perfect world, we won't have the need for shelters and rescues. Unfortunately, humanity will never be perfect and all we can do is decrease the negatives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I absolutely can walk right past that puppy in the pet store and tell the owner I won't buy ANYTHING from them because of that practice.

A limit to the number of registries from one address - that might be something folks could agree on or requiring some sort of inspection criteria for larger scale breeders ..but then there is CKC and UKC and CKC does not even care if it is purebred.

There is no way to "inspect" all the hobby breeders who have a few dogs and are active in sport and showing. I don't want a USDA facility like on that FB page. Limit numbers won't do anything to improve quality of those being bred. 

Coming to agreement in regards to criteria? GSD folks can't even agree which type of GSD is a true representation of the breed.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Ocean said:


> Madam, the main difference is where the money goes. You buy a poor puppy from a puppy mill or a BYB and the money goes to the proprietors which encourages them to keep doing it. I'm sure you yourself can't buy all the pet store dogs in the world.
> 
> Absolutely, you sh/d wait until that pet store puppy goes to a shelter or rescue! Then your money goes to supporting the shelter or rescue. In a perfect world, we won't have the need for shelters and rescues. Unfortunately, humanity will never be perfect and all we can do is decrease the negatives.


Sir or Madam - I respect your opinion. I stated mine. Mine is different from yours. I explained why I feel the way I do about this topic. My intention is not to change anybody's opinion on this issue, and I will continue to have mine. 

Topics don't have to be beaten to death, because opinions differ. I don't participate in a forum or a thread to cause controversy or tell people what they should do based on what I would do. I stated a different point of view on an issue, which happens to be my point of view. 

But, based on your response, everybody who buys a pet store puppy actively contributes to more suffering. I disagree, and I explained why.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sitz&Platz...you're absolutely right. Until we get laws things won't change. But those laws will never be made. The government will do things all wrong and everything that they have discussed has been wrong. The government will mandate that breeding dogs ARE treated like livestock. That is why the USDA certifies "puppy mills" because they believe the healthiest thing for the animal is to be treated like an animal.

Then on top of that think of the cost of this. All we're talking about right now is cutting government spending and not increasing taxes...why in the world would I want the government to get into regulating breeders?!?!? Do you understand the cost of that? Trust me...it will never pass. It would literally be billions of dollars to make sure pets are being bred correctly all over the United States.

The standards will always be set way way way too low. The leading thought on this forum is that all GSDs should be bred by the SV rules...SV type rules will never be a law. On top of that...it would be discriminatory to tell one breeder that their dog has to pass all this training and trialing...while another breeder of a separate breed can just pop out puppies without any type of training. SV rules apply to just our breed, and no other, so the government would not be able to implement anything close to it. What would you like them to do? Require a CD on a dog to be bred? A CDX? A CGC? No one on this forum would be happy with that. And people would still break the law and breed to make some money anyways.

So the issue comes down to the public accepting that things need to be done differently. But the public will never accept that because there are just to many "just fine" BYB dogs. Dogs that don't have major issues, dogs that live full, healthy, happy lives...eating pedigree and science diet to their heart's desire. Just because an owner can't tell that their dog has a small tick here and there...doesn't make that dog a bad dog. As long as a dog can be a family pet, most of this country will never care that it barks at the wrong time or for the wrong reason. Just don't bite anyone, show any human aggression, and that dog will live out its years.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Things won't change until the market changes. So long as there is a lucrative market for the BYBs and puppymills they will keep doing what they are doing.

The answer is educating the puppy buying public. If people put half as much thought and research into a puppy as they do a new TV or car, most of the BYBs and mills would disappear because they wouldn't have any buyers. Educated buyers would be supporting the good breeders with good dogs instead. And rescues and shelters would have a lot less of a mess to clean up as well as there would be far fewer bad dogs being bred and far fewer bad owners getting dogs.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Sitz&Platz said:


> Dainerra, so it's ok to rescue that pet store puppy once it goes to the shelter, but it's not ok to buy that same dog at the pet store while its still a puppy to give it a good home? That's your logic, but it's not mine. I don't disagree with the fact that your money supports irresponsible breeders when you purchase that puppy. But, they will be produced, sold and restocked regardless, unless we have stronger regulations. Until then, I would take in any dog, stray, BYB, pet store, rescue, because it's not the dogs that are faulty. It's the breeders.
> 
> I don't disagree with you, but that puppy sitting at the pet store is just as important to ME as the next generation of puppies that will be bred to replace it. The breeding will not stop just because we boycott buying puppies from irresponsible breeders as long as the breeders aren't stopped.
> 
> ...


Maybe I can try to explain to you in a way you'll understand.

When you buy a dog from a pet store or BYB - you are directly contributing to the "irrespondible" breeders' income, so you are in fact encouraging them to produce more dogs. sure you may have "rescued" that poor puppy in the display but you made sure the store who is holding this dog stays in business for another day. When that store stays in business, they purchase more puppies. When they purchase more puppies, puppy mills get paid. When puppy mills get paid, puppy mills produce more puppies. The cycle continues.

Now, you went to a rescue and rescued a dog that may or may not have come from a puppy mill. Where does the money go? Follow the money. The rescue did not pay the store nor did they buy the pups from a puppy mill. The rescue keeps the money, and that money goes to continue the rescue's operations. Not a dime goes into the puppy mill or BYB's pocket. Now you may say - yea but someone purchased that puppy so they DID get paid. To that I say we can't control other people's actions, only our own.

Do you agree and want to support puppy mills? Go ahead and "rescue" that puppy from a pet store.

Do you agree and want to support rescues / non-kill shelters / shelters? Go right ahead and hand your money to a rescue and pick up a puppy that may be killed next week.

Just follow the money...

Edit: Ocean beat me to it... Sitz&Platz I'm sorry, I know you might have purchased a puppy from a pet store and now want to rationalize and justify your actions. I am no saint here, as my dog came from a BYB. But, take it as a lesson learned, and support responsible breeders and/or rescues next time...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Things won't change until the market changes. So long as there is a lucrative market for the BYBs and puppymills they will keep doing what they are doing.
> 
> The answer is educating the puppy buying public. If people put half as much thought and research into a puppy as they do a new TV or car, most of the BYBs and mills would disappear because they wouldn't have any buyers. Educated buyers would be supporting the good breeders with good dogs instead. And rescues and shelters would have a lot less of a mess to clean up as well as there would be far fewer bad dogs being bred and far fewer bad owns getting dogs.


Every customer I had so far, who got their Shepherd from a BYB said "Why would I buy a dog for thousands of Dollars if I can get one for 500?"

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

You know, I don't think I have ever seen anyone tell someone that their dog is a "non worthy" dog just because that dog cam from a less than stellar source. I have seen proud owners take great offense at being told that their loved puppy came from a BYB or a puppy mill, and have seen them translate the comment about coming from a not-so-good place into the dog not "being worthy". But those are the words the offended owner uses and not something that originates from someone else trying to educate the owner on why better choices help the breed.

I have seen people try to explain why a dog that someone wants to breed is not "worthy of being reproduced". Which is, again, NOT the same thing as being told their dog is not a fabulous pet or is some how not worthy of being alive or less than some other dog that had a better beginning. 

In fact, I can think of many instances (both on internet forums and in real life), where people bend over backwards to highlight how wonderful the dog in question might be and still try to dissuade the owner from breeding or from continuing to adamantly insist that BYB and puppy mills are good things because it gives the average puppy buyer a way to get what they want (cheap and immediately). 
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> If people put half as much thought and research into a puppy as they do a new TV or car, most of the BYBs and mills would disappear because they wouldn't have any buyers.


Wouldn't it be great to see Consumer Reports look at puppy buying?
Sheilah


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Every customer I had so far, who got their Shepherd from a BYB said "Why would I buy a dog for thousands of Dollars if I can get one for 500?"


That's exactly right...and the truth is a small percentage of those $500 dogs have problems. Most of them make just fine pets. Those of you talking about breedworthy need to understand that the other 99% doesn't care about prey drive, defense drive, courage, the karat of gold the dog's excrement is, ect. They just want a dog that is good with the family, calms down easily, goes for walks, and barks at a stranger walking by the yard. They could care less WHY the dog is barking, just that it does.

Like Chris said...until the market changes, BYB will exist, and they exist because the "problem/issue" a sport dog person sees in a GSD...is not a problem for a pet owner.

On top of that...there are plenty of breeders at my club that are "responsible" and produce some nice dogs. None of their dogs have the temperament I look for and yet they make great pets and are all the rage in my area.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

It's sad where the minds of people are going. Follow the money, see the dogs that are suffering because of that practice, and make educated purchases. Working for retail, I can't tell you how much research people do for a TV or DLSR Camera and all other new technology. They research the different type of cameras or TVs, the customer service for each of them, the warranties, the specific models, customer reviews for each, reviews on the stores they are sold, and everything about them. I wish people would do the same for their pets. In the end, they will be an ever longer/bigger investment then that TV or DSLR or cell phone.

I have a dog rescued from a pet store (puppy mill dogs) and she's awful. I love her to death, but she is my biggest stress and probably one of the worst dogs I've ever seen or owned.... and that coming from someone who used to rescue pitbulls and other random strays is pretty darn bad.

Her medical bills cost me $4000-6000 just in her first year of life (8.5 months of being with us). After her first year, I got things under control with her health.... so we were down to just a little over normal dogs medical. But she still needs a very specific, expensive diet.... she still needs supplements and allergy meds. She also needs to have her hips checked and she'll need surgery within the next few years. She has HD, and possible ED. Bad skin too.

That's not the worst though..... mentally.... this dog is freaking nuts! She's got extreme fears that change often, she becoming dog aggressive (and this is a dog that was very very well socialized), she's highly reactive, she walks around my house... pacing and barking/growing at nothing... she can't lay still for more then 4-5 minutes before she's jumping up in a panicked/aggressive state over absolutely nothing. She's highly obsessive over a few things... bones, other dogs (even the others here that she's lived with for over a year), and chasing stuff in the back yard. To the point that it's unhealthy... not just a normal GSD with high drives.... reminds me of when someone plays with a laser point with a dog... THAT type of obsession. Very unhealthy, and makes the dogs neurotic. And like I said, this is a dog that was raised very well, with all the proper care and love, training and exercise, vet and psychological care. The vets don't think she'll ever make it to an older dog. She's got everything against her. 

With her, there is no such thing has enjoying dog ownership. If I didn't know better, and had no previous dog experience... I would have NEVER gotten another dog in fear that they were all so stressful and terrible. Like I said, we love her with her problems and everything..... we knew we were getting into a lot, and that's the responsibility we took. 

Now... can this happen to a dog that comes from a reputable breeder... well, yes. Can't control it 100%. However, a reputable breeder can make sure they have as little chance as possible and genetics will be there to back them up.... and if it does happen, they will research what they can do within their lines to make sure it doesn't happen again (to the best of their ability), and stand behind you and the dog through out it's life. They care about the breed and it's future.

It's not a question if the dogs need "rescuing" or not..... it's about what happens with that money. Behind that "cute poor little puppy" is a Bitch with 6-14 puppies each litter, Behind that bitch is a dam and sire, behind them.... even more. ALL those dogs are suffering... STILL! And because people are willing to pay for these "poor puppies"... they are allowing this to continue. They are making it possible for another litter to be popped out... and another after that... and another... etc. So in turn.... you are "rescuing" that ONE, and putting in another 100s and 1000s to suffer some more. I wish people would look further then that ONE puppy, and see it's mother, father, siblings, grandparents, etc. I'd rather have a few dogs suffer a little longer until the SPCA can come for it, BUT end the entire practice and put all the others dogs at ease... end the suffering for them all. Each puppy mill has hundreds and thousands of dogs that are tortured and malnourished... what about them? You don't see their pictures in the windows with those cute puppies...

Most of the times, those puppies don't even stay at the original purchaser's house anyways. They bounce around, house to house... and most end up in pounds. From there, often they are PTS. So this "saved" puppy, just went through years of heck...... allowed it's parents to continue to suffer, and the puppy mill owner to profit and role around in their nice new car. 

I'm sorry... but, I can follow that money and have done my research, and I'll tell you right now... I will never, ever give money to anyone but a highly reputable breeder that meets my standard, OR a rescue/shelter so they can continue to help these animals out. One keeps the breed going the right way and makes sure they are the best they can be... for sports, military/police, AND pets. The other makes sure justice is served for those not so fortunate. I CAN justify my money going to them with no problem.

If you've made the mistake... that's ok, we all have to learn from somewhere. I would never bash or look down on someone who did once before. But, learn that lesson, and help the breed out by doing the responsible thing.... go to reputable breeders (whether hobby, or bigger), or the shelter/rescue.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

@ Sit,stay: There are quite a few threads and posts, where people have homed in on BYB and pet store puppies. There are many negative comments on the dogs, not just their background. 

@ ayoitzrimz "Maybe I can try to explain to you in a way you'll understand." 

I'm not sure why you think that you have to explain, when I clearly stated that I understand the points everybody made, and while I AGREE, my approach is different. I wasn't dropped on my head, I just have a different opinion. 

@ Trickyshepherd: "Most of the times, those puppies don't even stay at the original purchaser's house anyways. They bounce around, house to house... and most end up in pounds. From there, often they are PTS. So this "saved" puppy, just went through years of heck....." 

That is not what I consider a saved puppy, what you described is almost "normal" for many pet store or BYB puppies. Thus I said, I would hope that those puppies would be purchased by an experienced, well meaning owner to avoid putting them through the usual cycle. 

I have had 3 puppies so far. One from a pet store, an accidental puppy from a coworker due to a an unplanned breeding, and my current one is from a breeder. My next one will be a rescue. I couldn't say that one was "better" than the other, but my deceased pet store Lab will always have my heart, not because I felt bad for him due to some kind of defect. Sam was a "one in a million dog". He was lucky enough to escape from the cycle that Trickyshepherd described, and I was lucky to have him.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

@TrickyShepherd :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sitz&Platz said:


> Dainerra, so it's ok to rescue that pet store puppy once it goes to the shelter, but it's not ok to buy that same dog at the pet store while its still a puppy to give it a good home? That's your logic, but it's not mine. I don't disagree with the fact that your money supports irresponsible breeders when you purchase that puppy. But, they will be produced, sold and restocked regardless, unless we have stronger regulations. Until then, I would take in any dog, stray, BYB, pet store, rescue, because it's not the dogs that are faulty. It's the breeders.
> 
> I don't disagree with you, but that puppy sitting at the pet store is just as important to ME as the next generation of puppies that will be bred to replace it. The breeding will not stop just because we boycott buying puppies from irresponsible breeders as long as the breeders aren't stopped.
> 
> ...


Supply and demand. Your attitude is sadly one that many have, even good hearted people that mean well. But it's basic economics and business. Yes, I'm sorry, a few must suffer for the mass to survive. If everyone stopped buying dogs from pet stores, you would have the initial round suffer, sit in their little pet store kennels, no love. But with no demand leads to no supply. If the pet store no longer made a profit from supplying puppies, they would STOP supplying puppies. Simple. 

But people like you who mean well, end up doing more harm than good. You buy that puppy, you promote the pet store, you give in to the demand, your dollars bring in 2 more puppies to replace the 1 you bought. Now the next puppy has to sit there and suffer.

You are promoting, you are rewarding, you are causing this endless circle. Tighter regulations aren't going to help. Public education is going to help! Every large organization in the country campaigns and tells people DON'T BUY FROM PET STORES! But why that message isn't loud and clear is beyond me. 

Do these dogs deserve love? Yes, they do. Not their fault they are here. But at the end of the day, they also SHOULDN'T be here. They never should of been bred, never should of been produced. You get that loving home that will work with that skittish, fear aggressive pup. And you can make leaps and bounds. But at the end of the day, no matter how well managed that poor pup is, it's still afraid of even it's own shadow, with no stability present to allow it to comprehend differently.

The difference between a rescue and a pet store, a pet store you are ALLOWING the production of more puppies. A rescue you are supporting the efforts to END it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> A rescue you are supporting the efforts to END it.


I have always wondered about that.

Because indirectly, they provide homes and BYBs keep producing.
Someone buys, dumps the dog, it gets rescued, and on and on and on.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sunflowers said:


> I have always wondered about that.
> 
> Because indirectly, they provide homes and BYBs keep producing.
> Someone buys, dumps the dog, it gets rescued, and on and on and on.


yes but by the time the dog gets to rescue, it has long ago left the concern of the BYB. He has either already been paid for it or he dumped it off at the pound. The rescue isn't giving money to the BYB. He doesn't care what happens to the pup at that point - maybe it goes to a rescue or maybe he takes it out back and shoots it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> yes but by the time the dog gets to rescue, it has long ago left the concern of the BYB. He has either already been paid for it or he dumped it off at the pound. The rescue isn't giving money to the BYB. He doesn't care what happens to the pup at that point - maybe it goes to a rescue or maybe he takes it out back and shoots it.


Certain BYBs and millers never care in the first place. 
Some do, most don't. 
I am thinking the dog issue will never be solved. 
There are too many variables, too many types of customers, and too many producers.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I have always wondered about that.
> 
> Because indirectly, they provide homes and BYBs keep producing.
> Someone buys, dumps the dog, it gets rescued, and on and on and on.


This is true. Really it depends on HOW the rescue ends up with it. If someone initially purchases the pup but then dumps it off at a shelter, then yes the breeder/supplier is still rewarded and the breeding practices still supported and continued. 

HOWEVER, if NO ONE purchases the puppies then eventually the breeder or supplier will either have to keep them (seems unlikely) or drop them off at a shelter once they are too old to be "marketable". If breeders and suppliers are continuously not selling puppies, not making financial income, and losing money because they are now caring for 12 5 month old puppies, do you think they are going to keep breeding them? If pet stores now have no room for new young cute puppies because those 50lb 6 month old gangly awkward looking GSDs are taking up all their kennels, are they going to keep buying in new puppies?

The thought process is, shelters are helping end puppies mills because instead of buying that cute pet store window puppy you're adopting one from the shelter. 

Tighter restrictions are not the key. Because tighter restrictions support large chain facilities. You can't tightly regulate small litters whelped in the home of a hobby breeder. Too many variables. You can control it by regulating that every pup needs whelped in a room at least 6' by 6', concrete floors with only certain substrates used as bedding, so many hours of this and that and only fed this or that, etc....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Once the profit motive is satisified the dynamic changes. Rescuing a puppy mill dog in the shelter doesn't futher incentivize puppy millers/byb's.

Having said that I agree with your conclusion. It's a function of the free market and human nature and will probably never be eliminated without onerous regulations that would hurt responsible breeders.



Sunflowers said:


> Certain BYBs and millers never care in the first place.
> Some do, most don't.
> I am thinking the dog issue will never be solved.
> There are too many variables, too many types of customers, and too many producers.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> and for anyone promoting that we need to regulate breeding remember - all puppy mills are USDA inspected and government approved


I don't think that is possible - I do not believe it is true that they are all visited - how would they do that - Lancaster, Finger Lakes, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Ohio...maybe they visit the commercial kennels like Hunte Corp (check out Hunte Corp and AKC).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Once the profit motive is satisified the dynamic changes. Rescuing a puppy mill dog in the shelter doesn't futher incentivize puppy millers/byb's.



It's not black or white, unfortunately. 

DO SHELTERS SUPPORT PUPPY MILLS & FAST-BUCK BREEDERS? by Laura Turner


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Sunflowers said:


> It's not black or white, unfortunately.
> 
> DO SHELTERS SUPPORT PUPPY MILLS & FAST-BUCK BREEDERS? by Laura Turner


Although the linked article was interesting, the source is not exactly unbiased. Take a walk through the other articles available.
Sheilah


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

sit said:


> Although the linked article was interesting, the source is not exactly unbiased. Take a walk through the other articles available.
> Sheilah


Yes, but I didn't post it because of the source. I posted it because it expressed some thoughts I had that I couldn't quite put into words.

I know they are unpopular thoughts, but they're just a different way of looking at things.

As I said, I believe the problem is complex and unresolvable.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What are those thoughts? I can't quite follow that article. 

Is it that people who produce puppies indiscriminately are more likely to dump them in shelters, while breeders who breed dogs according to some kind of standards are not (true - as soon as any person who produces or breeds a pup sends them to a shelter, or doesn't help them once they are they, they lose the designation of breeder in my mind anyway)? Or that people who get shelter dogs are doing a bad thing? Very unclear.

I completely agree that NO shelter or rescue should ever purchase a dog from a puppy mill (or any breeder) to "save" them from a bad situation because that is just an endless cycle. 

However - if that is NOT the case and the rescue is getting them from a shelter or "for free" and sometimes even getting mom/dad speutered, etc, which is a great idea, and you adopt from a shelter or rescue that is doing that, you are not giving the BYB any money. And the shelter/rescue is not supporting them either. 

Also to go back to the OP if someone is doing something_* except*_ health clearances, x-rays whatever, than they are still a puppy producer and not a real breeder. I will agree with that article that anyone who wants to buy a dog, needs, needs, needs to go to a breeder who knows what they are doing and who does right by the dogs as animals and as a breed. Not doing that hurts both.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I just don't agree with many statements made in that article. As I said, it was interesting, but it is difficult to give any credence to what they have to say since there are some just untrue statements made. At least, I have never seen a shelter where "purebred puppies or designer dogs invariably come from puppy mills".

Puppy mills generally send their unsold/unwanted stock to auctions. There are some rescues that purchase at auction (especially small breeds) and then rehome, but the article doesn't speak to that. They say specifically that puppy mill left overs get dumped at shelters and then they (the puppy mill) starts over again. This has NOT been my experience and I have dealt with shelters all over the country. Although I am sure it happens, it would be the exception and not the rule. 

They also comment that a well bred purebred from a "reputable" breeder rarely ends up in a shelter because someone has paid too much money for it and it will have been chipped or tattooed. The article then goes on to say that a reputable breeder will sell on a no breeding contract, or will spay and neuter pups before they leave the breeders care and control. A reputable breeder's dogs can end up in a shelter just as easily as a BYB. If the breeder in question does not know their dog is in danger of being dumped, how can they stop it from happening? I spoke with a young woman who was surrendering her 8 month old GSD pup to the shelter I worked at and when I asked her if she had contacted the breeder she said that she was embarrassed to admit that she could not handle the puppy, since she had worked so hard to prove that she was capable of raising the pup during the initial purchase process. 

It then goes on to say that by purchasing purebreds from "reputable" breeders, the need for shelters will be greatly reduced. But other than saying a "reputable" breeder sells on no breeding contracts or spays and neuters pups before selling them, it never says what a reputable breeder is. No mention of health testing, or breed involvement. Just mentions the word 'purebred" a lot.

I do agree that a family should never never be "shamed" into going with a rescue and they should never be embarrassed by wanting what they want. That I wholeheartedly agree with. But the rest of it? Flat out incorrect in places, and so vague as to be pointless in others.

That whole site seems to be full of the same type of poorly researched, hyperbolic opinion pieces cloaked as fact. I couldn't find one author bio that didn't cite some connection between the writer of any piece and the AKC: judges, "legislative liaisons", etc. Gee, the AKC wouldn't have a reason to want people to purchase purebred, registered puppies would they? 
Sheilah


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Gotta admit I'm not following the money through the scenario in the article?

Shelter dumping, still if a puppy miller dumps dogs at the shelter they aren't making any $$$ off of those dogs? 

Unless somehow the shelters are in conspiracy with the puppy millers and giving a kick back on adoption fees?

They could get away with it for awhile but either they get caught abusing a public tax payer supported service or they can't sell puppies, no profit and don't continue.

In our area a less then reputable rescue was caught dumping unadoptable dogs in our shelter and they were 'blacklisted' and have since moved out of the county.

Agree that proportion of well bred dogs in shelters is much lower then puppy mill/byb/mixes. (Though if anyone wants a WGSL our local GSD rescue has _one for adoption.)_

The article mentions that breeders "spay and neuter all their pups before they leave home" ??? I don't think breeders spay/neuter pups at 6-7 weeks. 





Sunflowers said:


> It's not black or white, unfortunately.
> 
> DO SHELTERS SUPPORT PUPPY MILLS & FAST-BUCK BREEDERS? by Laura Turner


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is a high priced SL kennel near me, and produces many litters per year. I've heard they use to euth the pups that didn't sell and the vet that was 'hired' to euth them ended up sending them to rescue instead. They must have been called out on it because now they have an 'overflow' kennel that holds the unsold pups. Not sure what they do with them, just yesterday they were contacted because a dog was found in another state that had a tattoo which may have been traced back to the 'holding' kennel. They denied it...as now they only microchip for ID'ing. Makes me wonder why this big name glorified puppy mill keeps producing litter after litter if they have to contract out a holding kennel to store their unsold stock. Sad....


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> There is a high priced SL kennel near me, and produces many litters per year. I've heard they use to euth the pups that didn't sell and the vet that was 'hired' to euth them ended up sending them to rescue instead. They must have been called out on it because now they have an 'overflow' kennel that holds the unsold pups. Not sure what they do with them, just yesterday they were contacted because a dog was found in another state that had a tattoo which may have been traced back to the 'holding' kennel. They denied it...as now they only microchip for ID'ing. Makes me wonder why this big name glorified puppy mill keeps producing litter after litter if they have to contract out a holding kennel to store their unsold stock. Sad....



In that context, I wonder what good breeders do with a puppy that does not meet expectations? I guess, no matter how great the parents are and how carefully you breed, you could always end up with a dog that does not meet breeding expectations due to temperament or appearance.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would hope a good breeder would grow out that pup and place it in the right home after knowing the exact temperament of the pup/ so placement is a permanent fit. 
Instead of quickly dispersing the puppy because they don't want to deal. It'll come back to bite them in the butt. If they are responsible, they would do right by the pup in the first place so pup isn't unfairly bopped around.


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