# Mother-son breeding



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Looking for discussion from those who are familiar with such close inbreeding (mother-son, father-daughter, grandfather-daughter, etc.), or know why a breeder would choose to do this (on purpose). I see a number of very close breedings in some pedigrees I'm reviewing, and just curious what the outcomes tend toward. Do the pups closely resemble parents or tend to take after the common grandparent? 

I know inbreeding (and linebreeding for that matter) in general increases risks of doubling up on an unwanted (or wanted) recessive traits, behaviorally or physically. This can be very bad. 

I'm mainly curious why a good breeder would breed dogs so close, and the intended outcome for the immediate litter, and future breeding plans.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You might have to ask those breeders exactly what they were trying to accomplish. I just saw a conversation on facebook regarding this and the sentiment was the breeder needs to know the lines for generations before when attempting this.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I believe the point of any type of linebreeding is to try to get as close to the original dog as possible. There can be good reasons for mother-son but I wouldn't buy one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

modern or historic?

many breeds were set with this type of formula at the outset


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Carm- modern breeding, just three to five generations from a current dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jax- can you please provide a link or PM me that discussion on FB?


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

you need to really know what youre doing for such a tight breeding. I know a mal breeder who breed his top male to his daughter. His goal was to reproduce the male. Generally a female reproduces the traits of her sire quite well especially when breed to a dog similar to the sire. the male he wanted to reproduce was seriously the ultimate dog and is still alive and well at 14 years old now 70lb of pure muscle in his prime. The breeding dogs produced were all extreme working dogs all placed in working venues or sports homes. 2 of the females only matured out to 35lb lol pocket rockets one male was 90lb and the rest were one male was 50lb. so i guess the only negative was the extreme variation in size but no health side effects all in all good breeding and was successful in reproducing his male.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Generally it's one to solidify a type or a trait. But most I know don't do brother to sister, more likely to go with aunt to nephew, uncle to niece or grandparent to granddaughter/son. And of the last two, more common to see grandfather to granddaughter.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Deb said:


> Generally it's one to solidify a type or a trait. But most I know don't do brother to sister, more likely to go with aunt to nephew, uncle to niece or grandparent to granddaughter/son. And of the last two, more common to see grandfather to granddaughter.


Isn't that standard line breeding?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I did some Googling and more reading. From what I read, breeders do this to solidify a type. They cull the dogs who show unwanted characteristics, and keep the dogs that show desired traits, then solidify those traits still further by breeding close dogs again. The goal being to eliminate undesirable traits in that line. 

For example (this is what I read, not what I know personally) if you like the traits in the mother, and mother-line, you might breed her to a son to try to select for the mother-line characteristics and reproduce those as much as possible in offspring. You'd expect offspring to be strong in characteristics of the mother and mother-line. Same for father-daughter, but in that case selecting for the sire and the sire's line. 

This goal is to bring out the "bad" genes and then be able to eliminate dogs carrying those genes from the breeding pool, thus eliminating the recessive undesirable traits in the line of dogs you are breeding. I'm not sure how well this works, but supposedly strong, typey dogs can result. Or so-called "super litters". But the opposite can happen, too, where the pups might show mostly undesirable, recessive traits or be unstable due to the combination of nerves and aggression, etc...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Carm- modern breeding, just three to five generations from a current dog.


3 to 5 generations? That was done . Nothing to do about it. The important thing to do is to see what or how the following generations were bred.
Relying on the same line - not so good.
Having gone out and bringing in new genetics from total outcross , by choice or necessity , then that very close breeding might have stabilized some trait.

you have to look at the big picture.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> Isn't that standard line breeding?


 I don't know that I'd call it standard. It's done, but not with enough consistency to be considered standard. It tends to get done more often when trying to first solidify a line or trait. And then done again if they've gone out to an outcross and want to again keep pulling in the traits they've been working on.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that most certainly is not standard line breeding .


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Carm- can you explain how stabilizing a trait is actually accomplished? Is it really so simple as to do a few inbreedings and cull out the pups that show up with a recessive or unwanted trait? I don't know the answer myself, but knowing what I do about dog genetics, and the huge variety of genetic traits in the dog- isn't the dog such a highly domesticated and variable "species" partly because they are able to retain "sleeper traits" in their genetics? 

If it was so simple to remove an undesired trait, I'd guess it would be gone by now in most breeds?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Deb said:


> I don't know that I'd call it standard. It's done, but not with enough consistency to be considered standard. It tends to get done more often when trying to first solidify a line or trait. And then done again if they've gone out to an outcross and want to again keep pulling in the traits they've been working on.


I didn't mean mother-son but what you were describing. I don't know enough about it to speak on the subject, so I won't say anymore. :laugh2:


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