# Integrity of the Breed



## cliffson1

I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


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## lalachka

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


Discussions are only clouded by feeling when people make them sound inflammatory on purpose. Your post doesn't make people want to jump up and defend themselves. 

I agree with what you're saying, however, I'm not interested in any sport or protection and I still want a gsd. 

So what do we do? What's your solution? I'm always willing to listen as long as I don't feel I'm being attacked.

Also, you said you can't be part of this. What do you mean? What will you do?


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## Blanketback

You can't be a part of what, this forum? Or be a part of advocating pet homes?


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## andreaB

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


I think this is in wake of the other thread that went so wrong today. As someone how is here to get educated on all aspects of this breed I agree with you.


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## MilesNY

Cliff, can you see a working dog in every home? My male is a nice dog. He is. I can not see him living in an average pet home, with minimal training, mental stimulation and leadership. He needs someone who knows what they are doing to keep him from running the show, he needs mental stimulation to be happy. Watching him waste away in a backyard playing fetch occasionally is depressing for me to think about. That is what the average American wants in a dog. What is your solution? I don't see not letting these people buy dogs as an option. This is America where people want what they want and don't care about whats involved. It's a change in our society. My parents grew up in an age where poor temperament was handled with a shot gun, not management. Dog were respected and allowed to be dogs. Half the family album has my grandparent GSD Heidi in them. Off leash, living life with her family. Biking around town, at beach vacations, playing with packs of neighborhood kids and my father and uncles. That is just not the age we live in anymore and it's sad.

The narrowing of the sport/working gene pool is an issue to me, but accepting that there are show lines, pet lines etc doesn't seem to be directly related. It's just a symptom of reality of our way of life.


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## Lucy Dog

So say what you feel, cliff. You're one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people here, if not the most, but your statements are always so vague in these types of threads. You always leave everything so open ended - at least that's my perception when i read them. 

You got something on your mind?... let 'er rip.


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## Blanketback

If it's about the other thread...well, I couldn't add my comment because it was locked when I tried to reply. But I wanted to ask if it was a decline in the breed in particular, or if we're seeing a decline in striving for excellence in general. IMO, it's a problem in every facet of life.

If the dogs can't be bred without titles, then hand them titles. That's the way of the world these days. Just like all the certifications I need for my job - the instructor says, "This is on the test," so we all fold down the corner of the manual, then it's an open book test. Geez, what's that supposed to prove? It's ridiculous.


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## holland

It seems that often if a GSD is referred to as a pet its a put down-yet when its to someones advantage the schutzhund dog can also be a pet-I think being a pet requires something of a dog and while my female can do schutzhund she can also be a great pet -and if I had a choice I would rather a dog that could just be a pet than a dog that could do schutzhund and not be a pet-I want a dog that can accompany me through my life-


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## Catu

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


Sad but true.

What most pet owners don't realize is that they don't want a GSD, they want a puppet that looks like a GSD.

I don't see my WL GSDs in every pet home either. The solution is not water down the GSD, is for people to realize that this breed is not the one for them... no matter how much they like the looks.


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## Freestep

Cliff, recently in another thread you said something like "What's wrong with a 'pet' home?" Now you seem to be saying that keeping a GSD as a pet is somehow contributing to the breed's downfall. Can you explain?


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## Blanketback

Lots of members here probably would be better off with a different breed. But not too many people here want to help inform them of that fact. Check out how many PTS threads that've posted lately. For what? I'm guessing lack of training, and being in the wrong environment. But very very few people want to point that out.


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## MilesNY

Catu said:


> Sad but true.
> 
> What most pet owners don't realize is that they don't want a GSD, they want a puppet that looks like a GSD.
> 
> I don't see my WL GSDs in every pet home either. The solution is not water down the GSD, is for people to realize that this breed is not the one for them... no matter how much they like the looks.


In an ideal world I would 100% agree with you, but I know that is not really a viable option. Look at our society. People drive massive cars with no need, purchase huge homes they don't need, etc. Society doesn't like to be told no and they live in denial. 


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## lalachka

Catu said:


> Sad but true.
> 
> What most pet owners don't realize is that they don't want a GSD, they want a puppet that looks like a GSD.
> 
> I don't see my WL GSDs in every pet home either. The solution is not water down the GSD, is for people to realize that this breed is not the one for them... no matter how much they like the looks.


I've never seen such a snobbish attitude. Seriously? Who gets to decide what's a good home for a gsd? What's the criteria?

Any home that can provide training, structure and exercise is a good home. Who said that they must do sports and get titled? 


ETA my post was not just towards you, quoted the wrong post

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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


 

How do you think I feel? At least you're on the back half of your dog life (not calling you old, just... experienced). Some of us are just getting started. Soon we won't have anything close to a GSD to even argue about. I have already been looking into other breeds. Unfortunately I don't think many of them are too far behind.


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## MilesNY

holland said:


> It seems that often if a GSD is referred to as a pet its a put down-yet when its to someones advantage the schutzhund dog can also be a pet-I think being a pet requires something of a dog and while my female can do schutzhund she can also be a great pet -and if I had a choice I would rather a dog that could just be a pet than a dog that could do schutzhund and not be a pet-I want a dog that can accompany me through my life-


I agree with you. My dogs are my pets, live in my house, interact as active family members in every aspect of my life. It would not bother me if someone doesn't do schutzhund but wants an active family companion, trains the dog, exercises the dog, etc. The problem I see is that most pet owners are not willing to do that. So bringing a driven dog into that environment without leadership and a job leads to all the "my dog bites" or "my dog attacked the neighbors dog" threads. It's not being a pet that is the put down, it's the way out society handles pets today that is the issue. Most people on this board are not "average" pet owners... They are much better than that.


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## Catu

lalachka said:


> Any home that can provide training, structure and exercise is a good home. Who said that they must do sports and get titled?
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Did I said it?


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## Josie/Zeus

Society has changed, it's been over a hundred years since GSD was "created'. Times have changed and so has breed. We don't have travel on foot to get to point a to point b anymore nor find a horse driven carriages. Women are not left pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen anymore either. 

I am sorry I do not have a couple of hundred sheep for my dog to herd. Koda does try his best to herd the cat however.


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## zyppi

You and others know far more than I do. 

My dogs are basically pets with about the amount of training needed for a BH. No expert here, but I have had a GSD in my household forever ( at least 40 years).

I've seen health and temperament and health of American GSDs deteriorate and I feel like I'm watching some of the showline breeders become more extreme.

Von Stephanitz created a special herding dog in the day before fences and the threat of wild animals attacking the herd were real.

The need for such specialized herding dogs disappeared with fences. And that was in the lifetime of the founder of the breed.

The dog then found new life in the military, and the rest is history.

I'm old enough to remember when people treated dogs as dogs (the good and the bad). But there were fewer people anthropomorphizes them.

They are dogs, magnificent dogs.

Every owner should value temperament and health, but not all have a need to develop the full utility of this versatile breed.

I like that more seem to know and care about health, but worry about temperament suffering.

They seem to be more expensive than the military wants, more loyal and harder to transition for the sight impaired and often more dog than the average owner wants to handle.

I still have hopes though, that handlers like yourself, will encourage keeping this breed alive.


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## lalachka

Catu said:


> Did I said it?


No, sorry, I added to my post that I quoted you by accident. You didn't say THAT but you do say that most people shouldn't get a gsd and I'm asking what your criteria is


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## MilesNY

lalachka said:


> I've never seen such a snobbish attitude. Seriously? Who gets to decide what's a good home for a gsd? What's the criteria?
> 
> Any home that can provide training, structure and exercise is a good home. Who said that they must do sports and get titled?
> 
> 
> ETA my post was not just towards you, quoted the wrong post
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't know if you meant to quote me, but I didn't say that either. Your posts, even in the other thread, seemed a tad bit defensive to me. Anyhow I explained in plenty of detail what I see the issue being. Also I never said in any of my threads that dogs "had to do sports and get titled", in fact I talked about what a pet life use to be for an average GSD compared to today. 

And as for who gets to decide, the breeder. If I ever breed a litter it will be me who decides what home is enough for my puppies. 


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## lalachka

MilesNY said:


> I don't know if you meant to quote me, but I didn't say that either. Your posts, even in the other thread, seemed a tad bit defensive to me. Anyhow I explained in plenty of detail what I see the issue being. Also I never said in any of my threads that dogs "had to do sports and get titled", in fact I talked about what a pet life use to be for an average GSD compared to today.
> 
> And as for who gets to decide, the breeder. If I ever breed a litter it will be me who decides what home is enough for my puppies.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It was the both of you. 

Yep, defensive, I'm starting to not like it here. Someone is always getting attacked (not literally). If it's not show lines then it's pet homes, just lots of snob stuff going on. 

If you're not titling you're 2nd class. That's the thing, no one comes out and says it, it's hinted at. 
Maybe enough with the classes? Why the need to feel better than others?

This is not to you personally. 



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## Gwenhwyfair

It's the Free market folks and we can't have it both ways unless you want to be like the old USSR or East Germany and control it through the gov't.

There are breeders out there breeding for every niche.

Unless someone wants to legally trademark the breed name "German Shepherd Dog" it's not going to change.

BTW, Too many people are getting snookered into working lines for the wrong reasons, like believing they never have health problems or bad hips. Or what an experienced dog owner calls a good dog is way too much for Joe & Suzy Suburbia and we're starting to see more WLs in shelters and rescues. 

So there's a silver lining, let people have their SLs or their ASL or their BYB pets sometimes for a breed or a line NOT being well known is the best thing. 

JMHO.


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## andreaB

yet again this thread is going downhill because of hurt feelings.


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## lalachka

andreaB said:


> yet again this thread is going downhill because of hurt feelings.


Who, me? No hurt feelings, I don't know any of you. Go on, please)))))
I will hang back and read


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## KZoppa

lalachka said:


> It was the both of you.
> 
> Yep, defensive, I'm starting to not like it here. Someone is always getting attacked (not literally). If it's not show lines then it's pet homes, just lots of snob stuff going on.
> 
> If you're not titling you're 2nd class. That's the thing, no one comes out and says it, it's hinted at.
> Maybe enough with the classes? Why the need to feel better than others?
> 
> This is not to you personally.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
you need a thick skin to be here. add in the fact, a large portion of members have WL dogs, SL tends to fall to the side. No offense intended. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the SL dogs myself but that's me. I'm not saying they're bad dogs. For those who like the SL, they're great. My experience with them hasn't been pleasant but I wont say they are all awful.


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> It was the both of you.
> 
> Yep, defensive, I'm starting to not like it here. Someone is always getting attacked (not literally). If it's not show lines then it's pet homes, just lots of snob stuff going on.
> 
> If you're not titling you're 2nd class. That's the thing, no one comes out and says it, it's hinted at.
> Maybe enough with the classes? Why the need to feel better than others?
> 
> This is not to you personally.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Most GSDs wind up in pet homes but owners should step up to what the breed is or is supposed to be.

Should the breed be watered down so people can have pets? I can see toy GSD's in the future so they won't be so big. 

There is no point to different breeds if there is no standard.

Cliff is not saying they should not be in pet homes. I have two WL GSDs and they are doing just fine but they are not for everyone. 

We need to respect them for what they are, not dumb them down so everyone can have one.
I, for example don't want a BC because of what they are but I don't want them changed so I feel better about owning one.


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## lalachka

KZoppa said:


> you need a thick skin to be here. add in the fact, a large portion of members have WL dogs, SL tends to fall to the side. No offense intended. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the SL dogs myself but that's me. I'm not saying they're bad dogs. For those who like the SL, they're great. My experience with them hasn't been pleasant but I wont say they are all awful.


My dog is no line, puppy mill special. I stick up for showlines because I imagine how they must feel. 


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> My dog is no line, puppy mill special. I stick up for showlines because I imagine how they must feel.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You were the one in another thread who is afraid to leave your dog alone. 
If you have a stable GSD of any line then you don't need to fear leaving them alone for awhile.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I know what Cliff is saying, get out to a club that works dogs, most people that are there who work dogs in more then just schutz know what he is talking about. Just a few days ago on the PSA vs FR thread this nonsense came up. Its funny I checked the background of the person that was questioning me and the forum is full of posts about the struggles they were having with their SLs confidence. Its not the dogs fault, or their fault. Its the result of poor breeding and selection. These dogs are largely no longer GSDs imo.

A breed watered down so everyone can have one..that why its so hard to not end up with a crapper even when doing your research.

Why must we blow smoke? In large part the truth about whats going on with the brees is there for all with eyes to see. Had a WL/SL mix last year, garbage nerves, pretty dog I made the mistake of compromising on genetics..never again.


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## KZoppa

Jack's Dad said:


> Most GSDs wind up in pet homes but owners should step up to what the breed is or is supposed to be.
> 
> Should the breed be watered down so people can have pets? I can see toy GSD's in the future so they won't be so big.
> 
> There is no point to different breeds if there is no standard.
> 
> Cliff is not saying they should not be in pet homes. I have two WL GSDs and they are doing just fine but they are not for everyone.
> 
> We need to respect them for what they are, not dumb them down so everyone can have one.
> I, for example don't want a BC because of what they are but I don't want them changed so I feel better about owning one.


 
yes. honestly, I probably couldn't handle Dax easily if I hadn't already jumped in head first with Zena when we adopted her. Untrained tank with no manners and an attitude to boot. 

There is a strong reason a lot of us say this breed isn't for everyone. I don't want them to be dumbed down so everyone can have one because not everyone can handle them as a whole. They're not a breed that's meant to simply sit there and look pretty and the general population is looking for that instead of function and versatility that this breed offers. 

My dogs are primarily family pets first. Anything after that is just fun times bonding. I would LOVE to be in a position I could train Dax with the goal of a title but until we wind up at a station with a club within reasonable driving distance, he's only an active companion that keeps me company on walks. But we do a lot of playing and training just basics. But I'm not looking for a dog to just look pretty. I like the functionality. I can handle it because sitting still myself bothers me so having a dog that just lays around doing nothing all day every day wouldn't fit with us or our family.


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## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> Most GSDs wind up in pet homes but owners should step up to what the breed is or is supposed to be.
> 
> Should the breed be watered down so people can have pets? I can see toy GSD's in the future so they won't be so big.
> 
> There is no point to different breeds if there is no standard.
> 
> Cliff is not saying they should not be in pet homes. I have two WL GSDs and they are doing just fine but they are not for everyone.
> 
> We need to respect them for what they are, not dumb them down so everyone can have one.
> ......


Agree!!! Are you (not you) saying that most don't step up?

I def agree that they shouldn't be watered down, they should stay the way they were meant to be and people should adjust. 

I think what it means to adjust is the argument. It seems like if I'm not into sports then I'm not adjusting. I don't agree. 



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## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> You were the one in another thread who is afraid to leave your dog alone.
> If you have a stable GSD of any line then you don't need to fear leaving them alone for awhile.


I don't have a stable gsd, I have a few problems with him and I'm working on it. Most of his problems are my fault to begin with but I'm learning and trying to fix them. I'm def doing my best with him. 


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## wildo

Wait- so you started pretty much the exact same thread as Sandra, who was banned today? You just didn't call out a specific lineage. It sounds to me like you're inciting conflict!


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> I don't have a stable gsd, I have a few problems with him and I'm working on it. Most of his problems are my fault to begin with but I'm learning and trying to fix them. I'm def doing my best with him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's the whole point. We want more stable GSDs and less of those with problems. This is looking at the big picture and not about someones pet.

We all love our dogs warts and all.


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## KZoppa

lalachka said:


> My dog is no line, puppy mill special. I stick up for showlines because I imagine how they must feel.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Shasta is a German SL/pet lines special. I love her. She's my girl. She was a breeze to train and is very good with everyone. I can trust her to not mess with anything if I leave her out of her crate when we leave the house for any amount of time. I say not all SLs are bad but my experiences with SL dogs hasn't been positive. Overall, I like the look of the WL dogs. I like the temperaments that are generalized in certain lines. The whole reason I love this breed so much is because of their versatility but also when you've had nothing but good experiences with WL (this includes big scary police K9s coming off the field and mauling you with kisses after spending the last 10 minutes chewing on a guy in a bite suit) and then the less than stellar experiences (in my own house) with SLs... yeah, I'm going to be picky. There are good SLs out there. There are. I don't deny that. 





Jack's Dad said:


> You were the one in another thread who is afraid to leave your dog alone.
> If you have a stable GSD of any line then you don't need to fear leaving them alone for awhile.


 
yes and yes.


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## onyx'girl

andreaB said:


> I think this is in wake of the other thread that went so wrong today. As someone how is here to get educated on all aspects of this breed I agree with you.


which thread? 

As far as *integrity of the breed*....whenever someone asks me what kind of dog I have, they assume that I have a dog with HD or aggression issues.
I hear comments on that and the slopey hockwalking(even from the competitive obedience people~though when those people see my dog, they comment on him, how he's a "real" GSD and how they are supposed to be)
Because JQP believes HD and aggression is the GSD's reputation. 
When they hear that I have three GSD's they ask me if I'm a breeder.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah. The average pet owning public is not going to 'step up' or 'adjust' unless you guys want to limit who can own a GSD or force them to.

That's the reality. Heck most people couldn't even step up to my WGSL Ilda and not because she's what Cliff would consider a good dog or example of the breed....I'm sure, but still she was a 'step up' for me from my ASL I had years ago. She's been a great teacher for me and I was willing to learn how to handle and train her. Thank goodness I had access to some good trainers who know GSDs.

Fighting with reality is like tilting at windmills....just sayin'.

Time for Mexican food and Margaritas! Good luck you guys.


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## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> That's the whole point. We want more stable GSDs and less of those with problems. This is looking at the big picture and not about someones pet.
> 
> We all love our dogs warts and all.


I doubt that can happen then. I can't see how this would be doable. That's why I was asking cliffson what he had in mind. 

What do YOU have in mind? Lets say you had the power to do anything. How would you try to achieve this?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/331018-long-supposed-creme-de-la-creme.html



onyx'girl said:


> *which thread?*
> 
> As far as *integrity of the breed*....whenever someone asks me what kind of dog I have, they assume that I have a dog with HD or aggression issues, I hear comments on that and the slopey hockwalking(even from the competitive obedience people~though when those people see my dog, they comment on him, how he's a "real" GSD and how they are supposed to be)
> Because JQP believes HD and aggression is the GSD's reputation.
> When they hear that I have three GSD's they ask me if I'm a breeder.


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## Catu

wildo said:


> Wait- so you started pretty much the exact same thread as Sandra, who was banned today? You just didn't call out a specific lineage. It sounds to me like you're inciting conflict!


Shhhhh... they're looking... they're everywhere... :lurking:
Imagine what would have happened if Sandra had opened THIS thread...
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/117981-fat-lady-has-begun-sing.html


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## MilesNY

I like working lines. I like to do bite sports, agility and nose work. I like to hike and run with my dogs. 

If I wanted to do sports with no bite work, I would really consider a well bred moderate German show line. I have seen some with good drive and willingness. I personally don't like the narrowness of the ASL so I probably wouldn't want one, but I know people think my dogs aren't attractive. Different strokes. 

I am friends with Gatordog adore her dog Aiden. He is stunning to look at, he is quirky and a sweet heart. I sneak him treats in the car when we are training.

This is not about bashing lines. It's about people policing their own lines without constantly comparing them to other lines. Worry about the temperament in your type not being upset because they aren't as good at something as another type. The breed is three different lines that slightly resemble each other. So instead of saying the breed has gone to ****, look at those showlines, accepting that the new work of the dog may not be super police dog. It's evolution. However, within our working lines, show lines, whatever. We do need to pay attention to temperament and health and genetic diversity.




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## wildo

Catu;[URL="javascript:void(0)" said:


> 4163826[/URL]]Shhhhh... they're looking... they're everywhere... :lurking:
> Imagine what would have happened if Sandra had opened THIS thread...
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/117981-fat-lady-has-begun-sing.html


hahahahahahaha! That's awesome. So pretty much saying the exact same thing, only four years earlier. Nice.


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## jafo220

I tried to enter the other thread earlier today. But it was locked.

Can I agree with my limited knowledge of in depth breeding and bloodlines with both the earlier thread and this one? Yes. I can agree. I think with the earlier thread today, the OP was speaking with passion and not composure. This thread and OP is doing just that besides I'm reading something abit deeper as it seems he does not fully express in detail what he is saying and seem somewhat guarded with his knowledge. Free country I guess. But I think, he is saying he's had enough. 

But I also say in response that with feelings being trampled on with the truth, also comes a responsability to educate in a non flamitory and respectful tone and manner. If you want people to listen, be respectful, if you want them to ignore, be flamitory and rude.

I've been in threads talking about different breeders. I think all sides have points to consider. But all this passion goes to waste. I hear alot of complaining, but no one steps up to the plate and says "what" they are willing to do about it. Accept say thier done. Starting threads about this and making them argumentative and in your face, then doing nothing, then why start the conversation in the first place? Thats where all these threads go wrong. Start a coalition in favor of improving or stablizing the breed. It's something. It's an idea. It would be more than throwing your hands up in the air and saying I quit. Educate people respectfuly. I bet 90% of the people who come here, want this. So what if they get in over thier heads, offer some expertise up to help them out. Guide them to a reputable trainer to assist them. This stuff isn't rocket science. It is fully achievable with the right help, not just set back and say "well they're in over thier heads with these dogs, should have got a toy poodle instead." Really? If your highly respected, and know much, what good does it do to not be a part of helping someone understand the breed and in return you educate and spread your opinion on the matter. Maybe that person you help, may take the next step you wouldn't. Who knows? You also leave the door open to people who don't really know, and since the experts won't weigh in, they do. So who's opinions get out there? Who's ideas get more exposure? The experts or the non-experts?

Some of the best advice I've gotten was "be a part of the solution, not the problem". Being silent, reserved, or plain rude is in my estimation, not helping the breed, so in my opinion it's part of the problem. To me thats the simple truth, like it or not. JMO...:crazy:


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## Freestep

What I think Cliff is saying (and I could be totally off, who knows) is that *catering* to a pet market is what destroys the breed. Breeders selecting only friendly, sweet, social, low-drive, low-energy dogs and breeding for those qualities. The result is more like a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit--why not have pet-seekers just get a Golden if that's the type of dog they want? It's not what the GSD is supposed to be, according to the standard.

I know it sounds snobbish to say that the GSD is not, or should not be, a breed for everyone. But neither is the Chihuahua, or the Afghan Hound, or the Chow Chow. It's not about a person being "good enough" to own a GSD, it's about the person selecting the right breed for their needs, not changing an existing breed to meet their desires.


----------



## holland

Goldens are not low drive or low energy


----------



## Freestep

holland said:


> Goldens are not low drive or low energy


Haha, I knew someone would say that. But I couldn't think of another breed right offhand.


----------



## wildo

holland said:


> Goldens are not low drive or low energy


And certainly not couch potatoes!


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## jafo220

holland said:


> Goldens are not low drive or low energy


Our neighbor down the street got a Golden the same time we got our GSD. I have to say, for a high strung breed, he is very well mannered and walks great. But I did get to see the battles scars on dads arms when he was younger. LOL!


----------



## Freestep

Goldens *can* be couch potatoes, depending on the bloodline and the home they are in. My pet peeve with grooming them is that some will just lie down and refuse to move when they don't want to do something. My nickname for Goldens is "leadbutt". They have the ability to control gravity by firmly planting their butt to the floor, making them feel ten times heavier than they actually are.

But yes, field-bred Goldens and a good many show-bred Goldens are quite active. Maybe I should have said "Basset Hound", but then some Basset owners would come after me saying their dogs are hyperactive too. 

I think (hope) you all understood my point and that this isn't a discussion about whether Goldens are this or that.


----------



## MilesNY

Freestep said:


> What I think Cliff is saying (and I could be totally off, who knows) is that *catering* to a pet market is what destroys the breed. Breeders selecting only friendly, sweet, social, low-drive, low-energy dogs and breeding for those qualities. The result is more like a Golden Retriever in a GSD suit--why not have pet-seekers just get a Golden if that's the type of dog they want? It's not what the GSD is supposed to be, according to the standard.
> 
> I know it sounds snobbish to say that the GSD is not, or should not be, a breed for everyone. But neither is the Chihuahua, or the Afghan Hound, or the Chow Chow. It's not about a person being "good enough" to own a GSD, it's about the person selecting the right breed for their needs, not changing an existing breed to meet their desires.


I understand this, but it's not reality. It just isn't. So why no produce pretty GSDs with solid temperaments and less intense drive levels? We already are so that's not really a question. I know when people ask me where to get a shepherd because they want a shepherd I can refer them to a quality breeder of a dog that will suit their life. Working GSD people need to focus on saving the working GSD and not what is going wrong with show lines or pet lines or whatever. I still see hope, I train with lots of different people and still see lots of good working dogs both on the schutzhund field and the police force.


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## onyx'girl

MilesNY said:


> I understand this, but it's not reality. It just isn't. *So why no produce pretty GSDs with solid temperaments and less intense drive levels? We already are so that's not really a question*. I know when people ask me where to get a shepherd because they want a shepherd I can refer them to a quality breeder of a dog that will suit their life. *Working GSD people need to focus on saving the working GSD and not what is going wrong with show lines or pet lines or whatever.* I still see hope, I train with lots of different people and still see lots of good working dogs both on the schutzhund field and the police force.


The Mals and Dutchies are taking over where the GSD has left off(failed). You see less and less GSD's in the field/force. The Mals have raised the bar quite high.

"Working GSD people" are trying to save the working dog because of what the others have reduced it to.


----------



## Jack's Dad

A couple of folks asked what can we do.

Since I'm not a breeder or in IPO, I try to educate and show through my two WL dogs.

We take them as many places as possible in public. At least some people ooh and aah over them and ask questions. We try to answer politely. We are told frequently how beautiful and well behaved they are. That is about all I can do in my position but I think actually seeing the dogs is very effective.

Just want to add I do not go to dog parks or Petco etc... Too many potential problems. 

As good as they are, they are GSDs and Jack in particular won't put up with aggresive dogs or people and lets them know about it. This has happened only a few times and he is pushing 7 years old.
I don't see his response as abnormal when a dog or person gives him the in your face rush, but it is an example of things you need to be aware of with the breed. They are not meant to be delicate, overly friendly social butterflies.


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## MilesNY

onyx'girl said:


> The Mals and Dutchies are taking over where the GSD has left off(failed). You see less and less GSD's in the field/force. The Mals have raised the bar quite high.
> 
> "Working GSD people" are trying to save the working dog because of what the others have reduced it to.


I don't think GSDs were ever Mals though. I don't think that GSDs are loosing to Mals because of what they have become but rather what the mal is and what the current mission is. Mals (in general)are higher energy, that is just fact. They do have very high drive with some risk to sharpness and nerve. It's also because of cost. You can get Mals cheaper, they mature faster, and usually are smaller so they have a longer working life.

I will probably get a Mal in the near future. I worry that I may no longer want GSDs if I do because a Mali to me is almost like combining a GSD and a BC... So it would be an all in one dog for me. 


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## Packen

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


Well this is a pet forum! The educated person knows where to find the best pet, show or work dogs. All are readily available and most everyone's happy with their choices! I personally do not believe the integrity of the breed has been compromised. I have 2 dogs, both healthy, strong and an asset to the breed. If I can find 2 such dogs in a row then anyone can.


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## Freestep

MilesNY said:


> So why no produce pretty GSDs with solid temperaments and less intense drive levels?


Those dogs occur as a natural byproduct of breeding. Even when you breed two high-energy, high-drive dogs, not every pup in the litter will be as high-powered as his parents or sibilings. You will have the higher-drive pups, the lower-drive pups, and everything in between. Granted, the average GSD litter is going to have more drive and energy than a lot of other breeds, so even a "pet home" has to have some kind of outlet for that energy and drive. 

Me personally? I like a dog with *moderate* drive. Enough to make training easy, but not so much that the dog cannot settle in the house. Does that mean I think everyone should be breeding for "moderate" drives and eschewing high-drive dogs as "too much" for the average owner? Well, I don't think GSDs were meant for the "average" owner. Again, that's not a dig on anyone. Old English Sheepdogs, Tibetan Mastiffs, and Jagdterriers also are not for the "average" owner, IMO.

From a breeding perspective, you don't want to drift toward mediocrity. You want a tireless, high-drive dog for SAR, detection work, competitive sport, etc. Since lower-drive pups will come as a natural byproduct, there's no need or reason to breed *for* lower drive, IMO. With the possible exception of dogs bound for guide or service work where ultra-high prey drive could pose a problem.

But again, I'm not a breeder, all I know about breeding is what I've been told by breeders, and what I've observed over years of watching dogs and following breeder programs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

@ packen *and* milesNY . :thumbup::thumbup:

(btw as far as this being a pet forum, maybe this isn't a big thing if you're really serious into the working dogs....but helping people to stay away from puppy millers is good thing, check this out: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/finding-right-puppy/325945-new-puppy-3-missing-toe-nails.html)




Packen said:


> Well this is a pet forum! The educated person knows where to find the best pet, show or work dogs. All are readily available and most everyone's happy with their choices! I personally do not believe the integrity of the breed has been compromised. I have 2 dogs, both healthy, strong and an asset to the breed. If I can find 2 such dogs in a row then anyone can.


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## MilesNY

Freestep said:


> Those dogs occur as a natural byproduct of breeding. Even when you breed two high-energy, high-drive dogs, not every pup in the litter will be as high-powered as his parents or sibilings. You will have the higher-drive pups, the lower-drive pups, and everything in between. Granted, the average GSD litter is going to have more drive and energy than a lot of other breeds, so even a "pet home" has to have some kind of outlet for that energy and drive.
> 
> Me personally? I like a dog with *moderate* drive. Enough to make training easy, but not so much that the dog cannot settle in the house. Does that mean I think everyone should be breeding for "moderate" drives and eschewing high-drive dogs as "too much" for the average owner? Well, I don't think GSDs were meant for the "average" owner. Again, that's not a dig on anyone. Old English Sheepdogs, Tibetan Mastiffs, and Jagdterriers also are not for the "average" owner, IMO.
> .


My point is I don't care. I only like working dogs. That's me. I don't however care that people like show lines and want to breed them. It doesn't matter to me so I don't spend my time saying the breed is going down hill because of them. That is simply not true. Yes in the good old days it was one breed, not different types. But, much like my beloved border collie, that just isn't the case anymore. So each line can just police it's own line. Base working dogs on working dogs, not show dogs. And I, much like others on this board, can still find nice examples and own two. I own, two, I see countless others. Yes I see bad examples too, but I don't see all doom and gloom. 




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## onyx'girl

blinders on won't make it go away. There are some really great GSD's and they don't make up the numbers for all the other ones that are produced. Who represents more? The really good ones or all the others that the general population see? I think many people shy away from show lines and go to pet lines because they don't 'want to show' their dog. Like owning any breed that is a SL is a given that you have to show it? Same for WL's, I don't want a working dog, so I don't need a WL...I'll go with a "pet" line.


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## Freestep

MilesNY said:


> And I, much like others on this board, can still find nice examples and own two. I own, two, I see countless others. Yes I see bad examples too, but I don't see all doom and gloom.


Indeed, I don't necessarily subscribe to the gloom n' doom perspective, though sometimes it's hard not to.

I still see GSDs that I think are excellent ambassadors for the breed, and that is due to a few knowledgable, experienced, and dedicated breeders who love the breed and refuse to give up. And thank god for them. Kudos as well to those who purchase such dogs and bring them up to their full potential through training, trialing, working, or simply being a savvy and understanding owner who sets their dog up for success in whatever venue they choose. Even a "pet home" can do that!


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## marbury

This all does seem to have come to a head recently, hasn't it? I wonder what happened as a catalyst all of a sudden. Was there some international breed show I missed?


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## onyx'girl

look at this video....it is not pretty, nor what the breed should be representing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8YNDbB-uE&feature=youtu.be


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## marbury

onyx'girl said:


> look at this video....it is not pretty, nor what the breed should be representing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8YNDbB-uE&feature=youtu.be


That's just regurgitated from Mrs. K's thread. There are good and bad performers in EVERY sport and of EVERY type. I can link that "exposing AKC" video with the hock-walking ASLs too... or we could all post awesome videos of dogs in every type excelling in their sports and turn a frown upside down.

But seriously, why has this all come to a head all of a sudden?


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## MilesNY

onyx'girl said:


> look at this video....it is not pretty, nor what the breed should be representing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8YNDbB-uE&feature=youtu.be


No! Not again! Lol

Really, why don't they just give up the bite work. Yes, some show dogs are good and can do it, just like some border collies or cattle dogs can, but not the majority. If you take a dog that genetically isn't meant for it and try and force him, you end up with Train wrecks. I would like to see these dogs temperament tested in other ways. TT test, rally, Ob, whatever. Just because it cant bite does not mean that it can be productive in other ways. But however terrible this performance is, it has nothing to do with working line shepherds. So why do we need to drag it out. There are show line Mali's too and I can promise you they are a far cry from what you think of when you think Mali.


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## erfunhouse

MilesNY said:


> I understand this, but it's not reality. It just isn't. So why no produce pretty GSDs with solid temperaments and less intense drive levels? We already are so that's not really a question. I know when people ask me where to get a shepherd because they want a shepherd I can refer them to a quality breeder of a dog that will suit their life. Working GSD people need to focus on saving the working GSD and not what is going wrong with show lines or pet lines or whatever. I still see hope, I train with lots of different people and still see lots of good working dogs both on the schutzhund field and the police force.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This!!!!!


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## Xeph

Sarah, I think I like you


----------



## onyx'girl

Why don't they show the dog's training? Blind search and control is just as important as a deep bite. I personally don't understand why they do bitework for a breed survey, either. If a dog can't show some power and courage in biting a sleeve, is it a German Shepherd Dog that should be bred? I'd hate to see if it was really challenged....


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## Catu

The shallow bites and dogs cowarding and running are not what bothers me, it's the excuses made by people.

I understand all the arguments about why we should leave the showlines in peace, but it's still sad to see that what used to be a working breed has become a caricature of itself. That is the whole point of Clifton first post. I read his sorrow on his lines and I cannot help, reading all the following post of this and other threads, to think that the breed is beyond the point of salvation because people only wants what pleases them and not what was the purpose of creating the breed on the first place.

You know... the hundred of times cited quote: 
_“Take this trouble for me: 
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, 
for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”_

Captain Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)​


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## onyx'girl

:thumbup: Catu though it still doesn't get through....


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## MilesNY

Catu said:


> The shallow bites and dogs cowarding and running are not what bothers me, it's the excuses made by people.
> 
> I understand all the arguments about what we should leave the showlines in peace, but it's still sad to see that what used to be a working breed has become a caricature of itself. That is the whole point of Clifton first post. I read his sorrow on his lines and I cannot help, reading all the following post of this and other threads, to think that the breed is beyond the point of salvation because people only wants what pleases them and not what was the purpose of creating the breed on the first hand.
> 
> You know... the hundred of times cited quote:
> _“Take this trouble for me:
> Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
> for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”_
> 
> Captain Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)​


But Capt Max during his life time saw his dog change from mostly herding to protection based. So are we saying the only work for the dog is bite based? Dogs do lots of other jobs now, therapy dog, assistance dogs, heck even dog sports. Watching a dog with terrible training and less than strong desire attempt to bite, I personally think is cruel. Had you taken that puppy, trained it with confidence and not asked it to bite, it could have done other great things. I guess my point is temperament is way more than biting. All types have good and bad. 

The shepherd of tomorrow might not look exactly like the shepherd of today, but dogs are doing different more varied "work" today than their ancestors. A good dog is still a good dog. 


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## MilesNY

This will be my last post on this, but it's been fun.

Let the people have their "watered down" or less intense look a like shepherd. We are in a free market and it's safer for our working dogs if people not suitable for owning a strong powerful working breed to be able to get a more lassie in a shepherd coat, than for them to be owning a bunch of out of control liabilities because they must have a GSD. 






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## erfunhouse

Catu said:


> The shallow bites and dogs cowarding and running are not what bothers me, it's the excuses made by people.
> 
> I understand all the arguments about why we should leave the showlines in peace, but it's still sad to see that what used to be a working breed has become a caricature of itself. That is the whole point of Clifton first post. I read his sorrow on his lines and I cannot help, reading all the following post of this and other threads, to think that the breed is beyond the point of salvation because people only wants what pleases them and not what was the purpose of creating the breed on the first place.
> 
> You know... the hundred of times cited quote:
> _“Take this trouble for me:
> Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
> for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”_
> 
> Captain Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)​



A working dog-- doesn't necessarily mean a Schz dog. That's why I think (and what do I know? I'm a misguided pet-household who works her butt off having a blast with my shameful pet) forcing a "breed worthy dog" to do bite work is awful. Try agility, herding, rally, ANYTHING can show that a dog has a great temperament! Why limit to Schz/protection work? 

Yes, I get riled up with these threads. I'm trying not to, but I can't help get frustrated at repeated one dimensional views of an old statement with minimal clarification. Do I think you are asking for trouble having a high energy dog in a household not willing to go hiking/do training/play games/socialize? Yup. I think bringing any dog into that kind of environment is asking for problems though. 

IMO the problem is with narrow views and fighting amongst ourselves. 


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## Capone22

cliffson1 said:


> I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!


?


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## Lucy Dog

erfunhouse said:


> A working dog-- doesn't necessarily mean a Schz dog. That's why I think (and what do I know? I'm a misguided pet-household who works her butt off having a blast with my shameful pet) forcing a "breed worthy dog" to do bite work is awful. Try agility, herding, rally, ANYTHING can show that a dog has a great temperament! Why limit to Schz/protection work?


Schutzhund was created by the breeds founder as a way to test breed worthiness. If the dog can't do it, they shouldn't be bred according to the founder of the breed. Some people still take pride in conserving that.


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## Capone22

erfunhouse said:


> A working dog-- doesn't necessarily mean a Schz dog. That's why I think (and what do I know? I'm a misguided pet-household who works her butt off having a blast with my shameful pet) forcing a "breed worthy dog" to do bite work is awful. Try agility, herding, rally, ANYTHING can show that a dog has a great temperament! Why limit to Schz/protection work?
> 
> Yes, I get riled up with these threads. I'm trying not to, but I can't help get frustrated at repeated one dimensional views of an old statement with minimal clarification. Do I think you are asking for trouble having a high energy dog in a household not willing to go hiking/do training/play games/socialize? Yup. I think bringing any dog into that kind of environment is asking for problems though.
> 
> IMO the problem is with narrow views and fighting amongst ourselves.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Because that is part of a German shepherd. If you want a dog that can't do schutzhund pick a different breed. German shepherds that can't hack schutzhund shouldn't be bred. 

IMO there shouldn't be show line vs. working line. There is ONE German shepherd. Which is a working dog. With a purpose. If that working dog also happens to be good for the show ing, sure show it. But first and foremost it should be able to work. Not the other way around. 


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## Capone22

Catu said:


> Sad but true.
> 
> What most pet owners don't realize is that they don't want a GSD, they want a puppet that looks like a GSD.
> 
> I don't see my WL GSDs in every pet home either. The solution is not water down the GSD, is for people to realize that this breed is not the one for them... no matter how much they like the looks.


Yes yes yes!! They need to respect the breed. Not try to change it to fit their desires. 


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## shepherdmom

Catu said:


> Sad but true.
> 
> What most pet owners don't realize is that they don't want a GSD, they want a puppet that looks like a GSD.
> 
> I don't see my WL GSDs in every pet home either. The solution is not water down the GSD, is for people to realize that this breed is not the one for them... no matter how much they like the looks.


Now wait just a darn second. I've been a pet owner of GSD's for over 25 years. I want the loyalty, smarts, and the protectiveness of a GSD. I really dislike the smaller snappier GSD's that are being bred for sport today. This breed is every bit as much for me as it is for you sport people. In fact I would say pet buyers pretty much support the breeding for the rest of you.


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## Capone22

MilesNY said:


> No! Not again! Lol
> 
> Really, why don't they just give up the bite work. Yes, some show dogs are good and can do it, just like some border collies or cattle dogs can, but not the majority. If you take a dog that genetically isn't meant for it and try and force him, you end up with Train wrecks. I would like to see these dogs temperament tested in other ways. TT test, rally, Ob, whatever. Just because it cant bite does not mean that it can be productive in other ways. But however terrible this performance is, it has nothing to do with working line shepherds. So why do we need to drag it out. There are show line Mali's too and I can promise you they are a far cry from what you think of when you think Mali.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think it's disgusting that there is a separate show line Malinois. They took a dog they supposedly liked and changed it to fit the show ring. You can't look at a mal, with all of its natural drive and aggression, and say OH I like that dog! Buuuut it's too drivey and too aggressive. So I'll breed that down. What you have left then, is not a Malinois. 


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## Catu

If you notice my signature you'll see that I not only have "sport" dogs. Quite on the contrary, I had been involved with working dogs for many years before I got my first SchH dog, and until today the sport has been nothing but a mean to improve as a handler and trainer in the venues that are really important to me.

Shepherdmom... I know yours is a gut reaction, but you have been in the forum long enough to know that in all this threads this has nothing to do with dogs owned by pet homes, but against dogs being bred ONLY to satisfy the pet market. I know you, I've read your post and I know that you'll agree with me that even you, as a pet owner, love the breed by the characteristics that made them a working dog 100 years ago and you'll be as sad as me if some day we cannot find those in our beloved pets (because my dogs are my pets too).

I wrote "in every pet home", not that no one should own one as a pet only.


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## erfunhouse

Catu said:


> If you notice my signature you'll see that I not only have "sport" dogs. Quite on the contrary, I've been involved with working dogs for many years before I got my first SchH dog, and until today the soprt has been nothing but a mean to improve as a handler and trainer in the venues that are really important to .....this threads this has nothing to do with dogs owned by pet homes, but against dogs being bred ONLY to satisfy the pet market.


And this is what I was looking for. A clarification as opposed to "that's wrong/this is bad". Clarification is key to understanding where "rigid thinking" is seen. 




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## Catterman

Capone22 said:


> I think it's disgusting that there is a separate show line Malinois. They took a dog they supposedly liked and changed it to fit the show ring. You can't look at a mal, with all of its natural drive and aggression, and say OH I like that dog! Buuuut it's too drivey and too aggressive. So I'll breed that down. What you have left then, is not a Malinois.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where is the "Like" button??


----------



## doggiedad

SL's don't fall to the side. what side do you see them falling
towards, left or right? lol.



KZoppa said:


> you need a thick skin to be here. add in the fact,
> 
> >>>>> a large portion of members have WL dogs, SL tends to fall to the side. <<<<<
> 
> 
> No offense intended. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the SL dogs myself but that's me. I'm not saying they're bad dogs. For those who like the SL, they're great. My experience with them hasn't been pleasant but I wont say they are all awful.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

erfunhouse said:


> A working dog-- doesn't necessarily mean a Schz dog. That's why I think (and what do I know? I'm a misguided pet-household who works her butt off having a blast with my shameful pet) forcing a "breed worthy dog" to do bite work is awful. Try agility, herding, rally, ANYTHING can show that a dog has a great temperament! *Why limit to Schz/protection work? *
> 
> Yes, I get riled up with these threads. I'm trying not to, but I can't help get frustrated at repeated one dimensional views of an old statement with minimal clarification. Do I think you are asking for trouble having a high energy dog in a household not willing to go hiking/do training/play games/socialize? Yup. I think bringing any dog into that kind of environment is asking for problems though.
> 
> IMO the problem is with narrow views and fighting amongst ourselves.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If the dog is breedworthy you dont have to "force" it to do bitework. If you have to force it, then do everyone a favor and keep it out of the gene pool.

Only through bitework can you truly see the heart of the dog. Not just fancy bitework on the trial field but bitework with real pressure. A GSD that cannot do bitework is not breedworthy and in my view about as useful as **** on a boar. 
You want a pet? Great, there are plenty of proper WL dogs which can do that too as long as you have the common sense to provide them with structure and activities to stimulate them. If thats too much to ask then get a Chihuahua.


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## erfunhouse

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If the dog is breedworthy you dont have to "force" it to do bitework. If you have to force it, then do everyone a favor and keep it out of the gene pool.
> 
> Only through bitework can you truly see the heart of the dog. Not just fancy bitework on the trial field but bitework with real pressure. A GSD that cannot do bitework is not breedworthy and in my view about as useful as **** on a boar.
> You want a pet? Great, there are plenty of proper WL dogs which can do that too as long as you have the common sense to provide them with structure and activities to stimulate them. If thats too much to ask then get a Chihuahua.


Groan. 


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## Konotashi

Erfunhouse, I think this video might be able to get through to you a bit better than words. 
Understand that a GSD that can't do SchH shouldn't be considered breed worthy because it was a test created by the founder of the breed for work suitability. A GSD that can't work isn't a good GSD, in short.


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## shepherdmom

Catu said:


> I know you, I've read your post and I know that you'll agree with me that even you, as a pet owner, love the breed by the characteristics that made them a working dog 100 years ago and you'll be as sad as me if some day we cannot find those in our beloved pets (because my dogs are my pets too).


I don't think our dogs should be bred strictly for any one thing, pet/sport/show. It is their ability to thrive in all of these venues that is one of the characteristics that we all love. Rather than breeding specifically for any one thing I think we should be working against the health problems that are currently plaguing the breed. Its probably naive of me but I think we should be breeding the healthy and best tempered of all the different lines.


----------



## robk

These threads really have no point except to get people arguing. The GSD is a great breed.


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## Lucy Dog

robk said:


> These threads really have no point except to get people arguing. The GSD is a great breed.


So you're saying the breeds problems aren't going to be solved through this thread? Then what are we all arguing about here?! 

They do get pretty entertaining though. Nice change up from the - what should i feed my puppy or is he purebred - threads.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Its funny you see a lot of people on here talking about the dogs training. However, the training is the least of their worries. The majority of the dogs are weak plain and simple.
A breeder I know told me that when he sees a dog look good on the field he always wants to know how long it took to get the dog where it is and who the handler is. Its not about the training its about the dog and when you watch the vids you can see what many of these dogs are training or no.


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## Catu

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its funny you see a lot of people on here talking about the dogs training. However, the training is the least of their worries. The majority of the dogs are weak plain and simple.
> A breeder I know told me that when he sees a dog look good on the field he always wants to know how long it took to get the dog where it is and who the handler is. Its not about the training its about the dog and when you watch the vids you can see what many of these dogs are training or no.


I am able to do bitework about once every two months. I know I won't be at the WUSV with that schedule, yet my dog got decent scores with the same judge that will be judging that.


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## Jaythethird

How many of you use your gsd for herding real livestock? Everyone is centuries away from the breed standard.... Welcome to life. Dogs are tools . for someone to suggest that others are using the dog for the wrong reason while not owning one head of cattle or a single flock is simply blasphemous 

Howdy from Idaho!


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## Liesje

robk said:


> These threads really have no point except to get people arguing. The GSD is a great breed.


:thumbup:


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## erfunhouse

Liesje said:


> :thumbup:


YES...however, I am truly interested in this point of view. There are purists everywhere in everything...and their views intrigue me...and hey, I might just learn something. At least 80% of this thread really is IMO communication and education and explanation.


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## Nirvaana

It is cute how some people cant believe that the direction of the breed (atleast one branch line of it) is being influenced by the sponsoring public's desire for external appearance rather than its core. How about you open your eyes, go to a mall, have a seat and watch people go by. There are entire civilizations based on such superficialities and most everyone of us posting here are a part and parcel of this system. So lets drop the naivete. 

Also realize that the seed dogs for the GSD would also fit the description of "perversion from the norm" of that time. The current trajectory is just a natural projection of that arc. Pouting and hugging a corner won't help solve any issues but white knighting and hollow indignations will mostly lead to more isolation. If you really care about the direction of the breed then organize, mobilize and act. This inconsequential hand wringing solves nothing. 

Oh and blitzkreig, we get that your epeen is bigger than everyone, we get it. Calm down.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Catu said:


> I am able to do bitework about once every two months. I know I won't be at the WUSV with that schedule, yet my dog got decent scores with the same judge that will be judging that.


Thats the thing with bitework, its harder to fake then the other stuff.. Training can only cover so much. Im by no means an expert but you watch enough of it and you start to see the dog underneath the training.


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## erfunhouse

Konotashi said:


> Erfunhouse, I think this video might be able to get through to you a bit better than words.
> Understand that a GSD that can't do SchH shouldn't be considered breed worthy because it was a test created by the founder of the breed for work suitability. A GSD that can't work isn't a good GSD, in short.
> 
> IPObservations Episode 1 The Elegance of IPO Dog Sport - YouTube


So to help me further understand, a SAR GSD who doesn't have some title in SCH isn't breed worthy? That kind of work, free from it's handler, maintained focus for hours...isn't a breed worthy dog? This is what I'm trying to understand. Then you follow it up with the blue sentence---which, if you wanna play semantics (which I know I'm forcing...but only so I understand what you are saying) means that there is no "work" for a GSD unless it's some bite work. 

Let me clarify everything I've been basing my own belief on---NO DOG should be bred just to have puppies. PERIOD. I dont care if you have the cutest, nicest, fluffiest Pom in the world...if that dog hasn't proven it's worth by doing SOMETHING and if that dog isn't HEALTHY in addition to all that, then in no way should you breed that dog. PERIOD. I am a full believer that for a dog to make puppies (which, aside from people on the board IS the minority view) it has to (a) pass health tests specific to that breed and (b) proven that it's able to produce sound offspring. 

That being said---if your GSD is OFA excellent/good, elbows are good...and it does SOMETHING--SAR, Agility, Rally...SOMETHING that proves that when there is a huge commotion, it can keep it's head, is still good under pressure and keeps focus; it's a good dog. Now I dont mean "Yay, you can jump a hurdle, and climb an A frame"...I mean, it's moved beyond novice titles. It's really been tested and proven time and time again. 

And I get the point of SCH/IPO...I think the handlers and dogs are amazing. If I had the time, I would do it in a heart beat...however, I dont have the time I want to dedicate to that sport and I think in a sport like that, a half trained dog is a liability. It's the MWDs and videos like SCH/IPO that had me notice GSDs in the first place. One day I will get a dog, and we will do bite work...but for now, I want to understand the views here. 

BTW---no hard feelings for anything read on here. Thanks for dealing with my hard headedness...apparently I"m not breed worthy as I'm too difficult and not biddable...LMAO...ooops. I have two BYB specialties already on ground.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Nirvaana said:


> It is cute how some people cant believe that the direction of the breed (atleast one branch line of it) is being influenced by the sponsoring public's desire for external appearance rather than its core. How about you open your eyes, go to a mall, have a seat and watch people go by. There are entire civilizations based on such superficialities and most everyone of us posting here are a part and parcel of this system. So lets drop the naivete.
> 
> Also realize that the seed dogs for the GSD would also fit the description of "perversion from the norm" of that time. The current trajectory is just a natural projection of that arc. Pouting and hugging a corner won't help solve any issues but white knighting and hollow indignations will mostly lead to more isolation. If you really care about the direction of the breed then organize, mobilize and act. This inconsequential hand wringing solves nothing.
> 
> *Oh and blitzkreig, we get that your epeen is bigger than everyone, we get it. Calm down*.


I never said that..but if you insist... But seriously its a forum if you cant discourse where is the fun? If I could hang at the club more I would be on here less, but talking dogs is fun even if we vehemently disagree.


----------



## Liesje

erfunhouse said:


> YES...however, I am truly interested in this point of view. There are purists everywhere in everything...and their views intrigue me...and hey, I might just learn something. At least 80% of this thread really is IMO communication and education and explanation.


Some people just don't think any show line will ever cut it but can't come out and say it because it causes too much trouble.

If you want people to justify their own dogs, it's hard to do that without getting personal.

I prefer to talk about actual dogs. It seems a waste of time to go on in hypothetical, vague terms lumping dogs into "show line" and "working line". My experience has been that each individual dog has a lot to offer, and sometimes you might be surprised. My working line dog was a nervous wreck. My show line dog has beaten the SchH scores of many working line purists' dogs. My next GSD will either be a cross of lines *gasp* or from a line I haven't had experience training yet. Oh well. It is a great breed with so much to offer, something for everyone it seems. I don't own, train, or breed dogs I don't think are decent dogs. At any given time, who knows what line or color pattern that will be... I don't like the vast majority of the dogs in the earlier videos for several reasons not limited to the bitework.


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## Konotashi

erfunhouse said:


> So to help me further understand, a SAR GSD who doesn't have some title in SCH isn't breed worthy? That kind of work, free from it's handler, maintained focus for hours...isn't a breed worthy dog?


SAR, K9s, service dogs, narcotics dogs, dogs that herd livestock on a farm on a daily basis - those are all WORKING dogs in real life situations. 

SchH is a sport to test for working ability. For the dogs that don't have real jobs in the real world, but it simulates it. 

Do I think it'd be cool to have a K9 or narcotics dog? Heck yeah, I would! But I'm not a police officer, so that's not going to happen with my dog. However, you can test for suitability for possible work with SchH. 

Police K9s - basically all aspects of SchH. 
Narcotics dogs - tracking/OB. 
SAR - tracking. 
(Simplified examples, of course). 

The GSD is/was supposed to be the ultimate utility dog. SchH is a utility sport.


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## Catu

erfunhouse said:


> So to help me further understand, a SAR GSD who doesn't have some title in SCH isn't breed worthy? That kind of work, free from it's handler, maintained focus for hours...isn't a breed worthy dog? This is what I'm trying to understand. Then you follow it up with the blue sentence---which, if you wanna play semantics (which I know I'm forcing...but only so I understand what you are saying) means that there is no "work" for a GSD unless it's some bite work.


Nop. Perhaps some, but not all of them. My SAR female is spayed and while I played with her in SchH, that showed me enough from her to know that she is too soft to be breed worthy.

Not every SchH dog should be bred either. If you dig enough you'll find other threads where you'll learn that it is not about the titles themselves, but about the process of training and trialing that gives you the information about if a dog should be bred or not.

But at least SchH (real IPO, not midnight or bought titles) is more standardized, with SAR you have such a wide range of certifications and types of searches that the fact of being a SAR dog doesn't tell you a lot. Hey! my Border Collie was a nervous wreck, yet she was great in wilderness and open spaces while she fell apart with the stress of urban searches.

ETA: It's not about the bitework itself, but there are certain temperamental traits that you can't measure other way and that differentiate the German Shepherd Dog from the Poodle, the Golden Retriever and the Siberian Husky and enlighten me... but so far I can't think of anything beside protection sports.


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## erfunhouse

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I never said that..but if you insist... But seriously its a forum if you cant discourse where is the fun? If I could hang at the club more I would be on here less, but talking dogs is fun even if we vehemently disagree.


Your epeen huh??? Wonder what that looks like? LMAO! I completely agree. My work friends and social friends look at me like I'm nuts when I try to explain WHY I will NOT breed my dog "once he turns 1" just because "He's so pretty, nice and smart"...and my husband listens to me with good humor and a nod every now and then that is mildly pleasing...at least here we can push people in good manner and learn. And that's what I"m doing---I'm learning! I love hearing points of view--and more so when it's passionate. When it's dramatic and over the top...well, you go the way of my 10 year old daughter and then I'll poke a stick at you cause it's fun. When it's passion and knowledge being spread...then I truly do enjoy it! And even if at some point we disagree, I'll still look at pics of your doggie and say he/she is gorgeous.


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## erfunhouse

Konotashi said:


> SAR, K9s, service dogs, narcotics dogs, dogs that herd livestock on a farm on a daily basis - those are all WORKING dogs in real life situations.
> 
> SchH is a sport to test for working ability. For the dogs that don't have real jobs in the real world, but it simulates it.
> 
> Do I think it'd be cool to have a K9 or narcotics dog? Heck yeah, I would! But I'm not a police officer, so that's not going to happen with my dog. However, you can test for suitability for possible work with SchH.
> 
> Police K9s - basically all aspects of SchH.
> Narcotics dogs - tracking/OB.
> SAR - tracking.
> (Simplified examples, of course).
> 
> The GSD is/was supposed to be the ultimate utility dog. SchH is a utility sport.


Now this I didn't know. What is this test you speak of? Through clubs? With prior training before the test? Please share.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Liesje said:


> Some people just don't think any show line will ever cut it but can't come out and say it because it causes too much trouble.
> 
> If you want people to justify their own dogs, it's hard to do that without getting personal.
> 
> I prefer to talk about actual dogs. It seems a waste of time to go on in hypothetical, vague terms lumping dogs into "show line" and "working line". My experience has been that each individual dog has a lot to offer, and sometimes you might be surprised. My working line dog was a nervous wreck. My show line dog has beaten the SchH scores of many working line purists' dogs. My next GSD will either be a cross of lines *gasp* or from a line I haven't had experience training yet. Oh well. It is a great breed with so much to offer, something for everyone it seems. I don't own, train, or breed dogs I don't think are decent dogs. At any given time, who knows what line or color pattern that will be... I don't like the vast majority of the dogs in the earlier videos for several reasons not limited to the bitework.


As much as you can tell anything by vid..
I have respected your dog since I saw the vid of him on the suit in the barn. If more were like him I doubt threads like this would exist to the extent they do..how where his sire and dam any vids?


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## Liesje

I think she means if you do SchH, you would be testing and training for aspects of the breed that are also conducive to police type work, so you can assess these traits without actually training a working K9. (I'm not saying I agree, but that's how I understood it...)


----------



## erfunhouse

Catu said:


> Nop. Perhaps some, but not all of them. My SAR female is spayed and while I played with her in SchH, that showed me enough from her to know that she is too soft to be breed worthy.
> 
> Not every SchH dog should be bred either. If you dig enough you'll find other threads where you'll learn that it is not about the titles themselves, but about the process of training and trialing that gives you the information about if a dog should be bred or not.
> 
> But at least SchH (real IPO, not midnight or bought titles) is more standardized, with SAR you have such a wide range of certifications and types of searches that the fact of being a SAR dog doesn't tell you a lot. Now this (previous sentence) doesn't jive with what I've read on the SAR sites here, which is why I asked that question, (US)if your dog can't perform ALL THE TASKS then there is no certification. Additionally, certification must be done every 3 years if I remember correctly. From my readings, if your dog can't sit with a bunch of other dogs for a while when you are gone, with handlers changing, no qualification. If your dog can't be run by someone else, you dont pass. if your dog can't quietly watch people, you dont pass. It was RIGOROUS testing....which by those standards, your collie wouldn't have certified anyway. Hey! my Border Collie was a nervous wreck, yet she was great in wilderness and open spaces while she fell apart with the stress of urban searches.


read the red


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## erfunhouse

Liesje said:


> I think she means if you do SchH, you would be testing and training for aspects of the breed that are also conducive to police type work, so you can assess these traits without actually training a working K9. (I'm not saying I agree, but that's how I understood it...)


I figure you're right. And hey...I dont necessarily agree. I think there are other things that test just as well. BUT that's the beauty of points of views...they are like bootie holes...everyones got them. 

NEXT DEBATE PLEASE!!!! 

(And I'm rather sad the other thread went the way it did. To my untrained eye, I thought we were initially mentioning conformation and that's what I looked at...wasn't even looking at the bite work...then I went and re-skimmed and saw it...yup, that was sad that those dogs were put in that situation. Had those dogs been slowly guided through SCH/IPO, Agility, SAR....something in that nature they may have done splendedly. SCH done WRONG is just as bad as saying it's an absolute must---and that loops back to SCH being done wrong or half heartedly.)


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## Blitzkrieg1

erfunhouse said:


> I figure you're right. And hey...I dont necessarily agree. I think there are other things that test just as well. BUT that's the beauty of points of views...they are like bootie holes...everyones got them.
> 
> NEXT DEBATE PLEASE!!!!
> 
> (And I'm rather sad the other thread went the way it did. To my untrained eye, I thought we were initially mentioning conformation and that's what I looked at...wasn't even looking at the bite work...then I went and re-skimmed and saw it...yup, that was sad that those dogs were put in that situation. Had those dogs been slowly guided through SCH/IPO, Agility, SAR....something in that nature they may have done splendedly. SCH done WRONG is just as bad as saying it's an absolute must---and that loops back to SCH being done wrong or half heartedly.)


They would still be what they are..the majority of them will go on producing garbage no matter how slow you take the training.. at our club we have a SL or two that are decent in the routine...took them years to get there. They are still weak genetically no amount of training will change it. Most of our WLs are there within half if not a quarter of the time..with less effort from the handler.


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## erfunhouse

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> They would still be what they are..the majority of them will go on producing garbage no matter how slow you take the training.. at our club we have a SL or two that are decent in the routine...tok them years to get there. They are still weak genetically no amount of training will change it.


And this part I do get and I do agree with. Any timid dog should be retired, spayed and sent to a pet home where they will get love and nurturing and slow smooth training that will help them deal with their issue.


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## Catu

What you describe in red actually is not a lot to ask, at least no worst than a CGC (and again any _Canis lupus familiaris _should be able to do that without need of being a GSD or SAR dog) and my BC was a social butterfly that would have been passed those with flying colors. She was a great wilderness dog, but the urban search environment is something that cracks even your average human. Her main problem was noise sensitivity and that is a big deal on rubble. With Diabla, on the contrary, I've been working at less than 100 meters from buildings being demolished after our last earthquake.


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## Konotashi

Liesje said:


> I think she means if you do SchH, you would be testing and training for aspects of the breed that are also conducive to police type work, so you can assess these traits without actually training a working K9. (I'm not saying I agree, but that's how I understood it...)


Yes, this is what I meant.

Not saying dogs that do real-life work train in SchH (since I'm sure the training for those dogs is far different), but if you have a great SchH dog, you're more likely to have a dog that would be suitable for such jobs than if you only show in conformation.

If you see a confident, strong, willing, eager, enthusiastic dog on the SchH field, s/he likely has the temperament to do other work as well.

It should be about the dog doing it well, and not just have the ability to hang onto a sleeve.


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## shepherdmom

erfunhouse said:


> And this part I do get and I do agree with. Any timid dog should be retired, spayed and sent to a pet home where they will get love and nurturing and slow smooth training that will help them deal with their issue.


Wait send a timid dog to a pet home? Most pet homes can't deal with regular dogs much less one with issues like being timid. There was a thread on here just a little while ago some lady with kids had a dog freak out every time a kid came out in costume or basically were being kids. She was trying to rehome him but I lost track of the thread and don't know what happened. I've got a little mix dog that is timid. As an older couple with our kids grown we can manage him. Would I send him to a average pet home... **** NO! That would be setting him up to fail. Sending dogs like this out into the pet world is not the solution.


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## erfunhouse

shepherdmom said:


> Wait send a timid dog to a pet home? Most pet homes can't deal with regular dogs much less one with issues like being timid. There was a thread on here just a little while ago some lady with kids had a dog freak out every time a kid came out in costume or basically were being kids. She was trying to rehome him but I lost track of the thread and don't know what happened. I've got a little mix dog that is timid. As an older couple with our kids grown we can manage him. Would I send him to a average pet home... **** NO! That would be setting him up to fail. Sending dogs like this out into the pet world is not the solution.


How about reading farther than the first sentence? Aids with comprehension. 


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## shepherdmom

erfunhouse said:


> How about reading farther than the first sentence? Aids with comprehension.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I quoted your entire post... Exactly what did I miss?


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## Konotashi

Timid dogs often turn into fear biters.
Sounds stellar for your average pet home... not.


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## JakodaCD OA

a good dog is a good dog is a good dog, no matter the lines in my opinion.

I have had gsd's my whole life and my father did before me. He had a gsd in korea while in the war.

I don't like alot of what I see and hear about all these fear biters, lack of good /solid temperament, health issues, happy lab like gsd's that are of 'today'. There are to many that 'are not' what they are supposed to be. 

To many impulse buyers, to many judges putting up what 'they' like or is in fashion, to many breeders that don't screen buyers, don't put thought into what they are breeding for that almighty buck.

On the flip side, I DO see alot of nice dogs, great breeders, and I thank god they are out there. 

I am the first to admit , I don't trial my dogs anymore, physical issues prevent it, but I will never live with a washed down version of what a gsd is supposed to be.

I've been blessed with some wonderful fantastic dogs and hope to always have atleast one in my life. 

I agree with rob and feel these topics while may be informative and debating for some, for me serve no purpose, because they end up going so far off track the original meaning is lost..


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## lhczth

Catu said:


> ETA: It's not about the bitework itself, but there are certain temperamental traits that you can't measure other way and that differentiate the German Shepherd Dog from the Poodle, the Golden Retriever and the Siberian Husky and enlighten me... but so far I can't think of anything beside protection sports.


IMO there are three areas. Protection/bitework, USAR and real large flock herding (where they used to require a courage test, bitework/protection, in order to earn the HGH) that totally test nerve. Only the former, though, tests and separates the GSD from other breeds (and the HGH would probably be pretty close, at least the way it used to be).


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## erfunhouse

shepherdmom said:


> I quoted your entire post... Exactly what did I miss?


The part about getting the training they need to deal with their issues. Basically everything after the first sentence. I can quote a post too, doesn't mean I read the whole thing. Kinda like what you did. 


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## shepherdmom

erfunhouse said:


> The part about getting the training they need to deal with their issues. Basically everything after the first sentence. I can quote a post too, doesn't mean I read the whole thing. Kinda like what you did.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Well apparently you missed my whole point, in most of the pet world they won't get the training they need. Very few people are equipped to deal with a dog with issues and even less than with a GSD with issues. Part of the problem is that these dogs are getting tossed out into the pet world where they give the entire breed a bad rep.


----------



## Xeph

I have tried schutzhund....multiple times. I cannot do it. I quit trying mostly because of trust issues. I couldn't post a video without somebody commenting on "crappy helper work", regardless of where I was.

When you're training a dog in a venue like this, you have to be able to trust the person working with your dog. I found I was just unable to do that. Maybe I shouldn't have listened to the people commenting, but I couldn't ignore it...not with something like bite work.

My physical limitations were a secondary reason to giving up. I am not able to lay tracks, and unless somebody else posts my dog for me, or the dog is back tied, I do not feel it is safe for my dog to do bite work, because who knows when my legs will give out. I don't want somebody to accidentally be bitten because of my physical ailments.

So instead I participate in agility, rally, conformation, obedience, flyball, herding, and may try nosework if there is a class around here.

I have become satisfied with the things I do with my dogs, and have plenty of people interested in my dogs, even though I don't do bite sports.

Will everybody like my dogs? No. Will some think they're watered down? Yes. That's ok by me. Doesn't really matter what they think if they're not interested in my animals. I certainly am not fond of some of the animals others own/breed. And unless I plan to purchase from them, who cares?


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## Blanketback

There are a gazillion GSD owners out there (past and present) who don't even have a clue what we're talking about, lol. First Strongheart, then Rin Tin Tin...this breed has been extremely popular for almost a century. I wonder exactly how many millions (literally millions!) of GSDs have lived on North American soil throughout that time?


----------



## TrickyShepherd

This topic gets so old after a while... by this time, it's really just beating a dead horse. 

.....OOh nooo, the bad pet homes.... Look at those ugly SLs, there goes the breed.... 

I have personally seen more problematic working lines (in working homes & pet homes, mind you) than showlines here. Of course I've seen SLs that are not running on all cylinders or having some electrical problems up stairs..... but that goes for ALL the lines... In fact, many breeds in general! I've seen bad owners and troubled dogs come from every angle. I won't target a specific line. Do I think this breed needs some help? Well... yeah.... what popular (world wide) breed doesn't?

-Labs are gradually becoming (at a fast pace) gigantic heaps of fat with no intelligence and loads of health issues... known for biting, and aggression... along with neurotic behaviors. Aren't they supposed to be 'family friendly' hunting dogs? Doesn't match up to me.

-Goldens are now going down the same path... I see the ones here that are taller than my GSDs and about 100-120lbs. Lazy, fearful/timid, aggressive, and full of health problems.... not what I remember raising years ago! My Goldens could have run an even match with the GSDs I know when it comes to drives and energy. They were sporting dogs...

-Pit Bulls... good lord what happened there?! ...Popularity. My family rescued many back while we had the goldens. Sweetest dogs we had, very loyal and family oriented..... and we only had 1 dog fight during all those years (back then, we did not use crates for the adults, we had no intact males... no separation at all.) the dog that started and continued that fight was the product of horrible breeding, mistreatment, and was mentally unstable from birth..... he was PTS the moment we saw there was no helping this dog... not even management. He eventually turned on his humans (myself and my family), and that was the final straw. Is this what that breed is though? No, not at all.

-Chihuahuas... here's another breed that's suffered from popularity. My grandma used to show them back when she was young. She eventually had a few litters that went onto some high placements. She left the show ring and breeding long before I came around, but she's always had a chi around that lived with all her big dogs and eventually our goldens too. They were treated the same way. The Chi she had while I grew up was a great little dog! I loved that one. She wasn't mean, she wasn't shaky and fearful, she wasn't yappy or nippy.... she was just another one of the dogs. In fact, she was a funny little character! My little buddy growing up. This dog passed away back in the early 2000's at about 16yrs old, and about 3-4 years ago, my grandma got another Chi. She thought she was getting a good one, used all her knowledge and experience.... and yet this dog is a mess. She's neurotic as ever, not healthy, and the symbol of what Chi's are notorious for today... she has NO problem biting off a finger, and she's not stable. My grandma often talks about how she's very sad to see such a decline in the breed that she loved so much. She loves the dog to death, but certainly has no problem telling you all the flaws.

The list goes on and on. This is what happens with popularity. However, it's not a specific line. I can pick out flaws in the ASL's, GSL's, and all the WL's within the breed that I've seen..... I've also seen a lot of great dogs from each line. I've seen great GSDs come from professional working/sport homes, hobby sport homes, family homes, etc.... just the same as I've seen the bad.

I don't think an umbrella statement should be placed here... it's not ALL GSDs, just as it's not ALL pet homes that are deteriorating our breeds quality. It's the popularity the breed has gained, the poor breeding practices and their quantity, and our ignorant public that gets yanked around. This, again, is seen in all of the lines. It may tend to happen more with the SLs because they are the typical GSD... they are what the ignorant public attaches to. Perfect situation to scam people and make money. Those who enjoy the WLs are normally a little more informed and will do some homework.... therefore, poor breeding practices are not as widely known and accepted (It's still strongly there though). I don't, and refuse to, follow the "elitist view" on only the chosen few can own this breed, and only 1 sport can fully qualify the dog (yes, it was created for the breed to test them as their standard requires, and yes, it's the best way... but it's not the ONLY way. This breed was originally a herding dog.... I don't see herding in there? Agility, SAR, Police/Military- bomb, narcotic trackers, herding, etc. There are other venues this breed excels at- yay for versatility- and not every home wants to do Schutzhund... it's very very involved, expensive, time consuming, and most of all... not everyone enjoys that. To me that should NOT be a requirement to simply own a GSD). Give me a break.... it's still a dog. A dog is a dog is a dog.... they still lick their rear ends, roll in dead animals and horse poop, and bark at & chase squirrels. Not saying there's NO difference in the breed (there most certainly is), but it doesn't take a non-mortal superior being to raise one properly. With that said, I do agree that this breed is not for everyone and some get them without enough knowledge, know-how, and sometimes even the will to keep up with such a dog.... same as Rotties, Pits, Dobies, etc. Hence, where the bad rep comes from. That's not everyone though, and it's not just one line.

I personally adore the WLs..... that's what fits me and what I do. I do work my dogs, I do sports, and I'm very active with them.... probably not what you'd call the average pet home. However, I know plenty who are the "average" and many of them happen to have excellent shepherds that represent our breed beautifully. Umbrella statements and attacking certain lines and types of homes as a whole is wrong.

As of the video that was posted in the previous thread... yes, very upsetting, I 100% agree that those dogs are NOT what this breed should be... and it sickens me that those are considered "top notch" in the country that founded and nurtured this breed. I would expect so much more from those dogs. They are probably wonderful pets and dogs in general, but no... that's not what I want to see this breed building off of..... problem? Yeah, it is. Is the institution a bit corrupt? Sounds like it. Is that just found in 1 set of lines? Nope. That just happens to be the line that was represented where this video was taken. I'm open minded, with no blinders on..... I like to see all sides of the story before making assumptions and putting everything under an umbrella. 

I know it will never happen, but it would be awesome to instead of seeing threads ripping other lines apart or the elitist "only the chosen people" can raise one.... instead.... let's get a thread about the institution, what needs help, what's good and bad about it? Where's this corruption stemming from and what can we all do about it? Right now, this is just back and forth bickering... what good is this doing?! Where would everyone like to see these lines go? Keep up with helping new people find the right breeders and point them in the right direction for their own research to begin. Point out what good and bad qualities to look out for. (which is why we have that awesome sticky on there... very helpful to new people to the breed!). When someone asks the genuine question about "should I get a GSD?"... give honest feedback without assuming anything. IMO, that is what will help. It's the ignorant general public who fuel the BYB and the greedy breeders with bad practices...... instead of insulting... inform. 1 person at a time is better than none. It doesn't take a genius or many years of experience to see all of this.... this is what I've seen, and IMO, this is what's going on and what needs help.

Disagree with what you all would like, I'm a sponge for knowledge and willing to hear the all sides... but, leave the elitist attitude and line bashing at a rest. It's causing too much tension on this forum and making many feel unwelcome. This doesn't help the breed at all.


----------



## Heidigsd

TrickyShepherd said:


> This topic gets so old after a while... by this time, it's really just beating a dead horse.
> 
> .....OOh nooo, the bad pet homes.... Look at those ugly SLs, there goes the breed....
> 
> I have personally seen more problematic working lines (in working homes & pet homes, mind you) than showlines here. Of course I've seen SLs that are not running on all cylinders or having some electrical problems up stairs..... but that goes for ALL the lines... In fact, many breeds in general! I've seen bad owners and troubled dogs come from every angle. I won't target a specific line. Do I think this breed needs some help? Well... yeah.... what popular (world wide) breed doesn't?
> 
> -Labs are gradually becoming (at a fast pace) gigantic heaps of fat with no intelligence and loads of health issues... known for biting, and aggression... along with neurotic behaviors. Aren't they supposed to be 'family friendly' hunting dogs? Doesn't match up to me.
> 
> -Goldens are now going down the same path... I see the ones here that are taller than my GSDs and about 100-120lbs. Lazy, fearful/timid, aggressive, and full of health problems.... not what I remember raising years ago! My Goldens could have run an even match with the GSDs I know when it comes to drives and energy. They were sporting dogs...
> 
> -Pit Bulls... good lord what happened there?! ...Popularity. My family rescued many back while we had the goldens. Sweetest dogs we had, very loyal and family oriented..... and we only had 1 dog fight during all those years (back then, we did not use crates for the adults, we had no intact males... no separation at all.) the dog that started and continued that fight was the product of horrible breeding, mistreatment, and was mentally unstable from birth..... he was PTS the moment we saw there was no helping this dog... not even management. He eventually turned on his humans (myself and my family), and that was the final straw. Is this what that breed is though? No, not at all.
> 
> -Chihuahuas... here's another breed that's suffered from popularity. My grandma used to show them back when she was young. She eventually had a few litters that went onto some high placements. She left the show ring and breeding long before I came around, but she's always had a chi around that lived with all her big dogs and eventually our goldens too. They were treated the same way. The Chi she had while I grew up was a great little dog! I loved that one. She wasn't mean, she wasn't shaky and fearful, she wasn't yappy or nippy.... she was just another one of the dogs. In fact, she was a funny little character! My little buddy growing up. This dog passed away back in the early 2000's at about 16yrs old, and about 3-4 years ago, my grandma got another Chi. She thought she was getting a good one, used all her knowledge and experience.... and yet this dog is a mess. She's neurotic as ever, not healthy, and the symbol of what Chi's are notorious for today... she has NO problem biting off a finger, and she's not stable. My grandma often talks about how she's very sad to see such a decline in the breed that she loved so much. She loves the dog to death, but certainly has no problem telling you all the flaws.
> 
> The list goes on and on. This is what happens with popularity. However, it's not a specific line. I can pick out flaws in the ASL's, GSL's, and all the WL's within the breed that I've seen..... I've also seen a lot of great dogs from each line. I've seen great GSDs come from professional working/sport homes, hobby sport homes, family homes, etc.... just the same as I've seen the bad.
> 
> I don't think an umbrella statement should be placed here... it's not ALL GSDs, just as it's not ALL pet homes that are deteriorating our breeds quality. It's the popularity the breed has gained, the poor breeding practices and their quantity, and our ignorant public that gets yanked around. This, again, is seen in all of the lines. It may tend to happen more with the SLs because they are the typical GSD... they are what the ignorant public attaches to. Perfect situation to scam people and make money. Those who enjoy the WLs are normally a little more informed and will do some homework.... therefore, poor breeding practices are not as widely known and accepted (It's still strongly there though). I don't, and refuse to, follow the "elitist view" on only the chosen few can own this breed, and only 1 sport can fully qualify the dog (yes, it was created for the breed to test them as their standard requires, and yes, it's the best way... but it's not the ONLY way. This breed was originally a herding dog.... I don't see herding in there? Agility, SAR, Police/Military- bomb, narcotic trackers, herding, etc. There are other venues this breed excels at- yay for versatility- and not every home wants to do Schutzhund... it's very very involved, expensive, time consuming, and most of all... not everyone enjoys that. To me that should NOT be a requirement to simply own a GSD). Give me a break.... it's still a dog. A dog is a dog is a dog.... they still lick their rear ends, roll in dead animals and horse poop, and bark at & chase squirrels. Not saying there's NO difference in the breed (there most certainly is), but it doesn't take a non-mortal superior being to raise one properly. With that said, I do agree that this breed is not for everyone and some get them without enough knowledge, know-how, and sometimes even the will to keep up with such a dog.... same as Rotties, Pits, Dobies, etc. Hence, where the bad rep comes from. That's not everyone though, and it's not just one line.
> 
> I personally adore the WLs..... that's what fits me and what I do. I do work my dogs, I do sports, and I'm very active with them.... probably not what you'd call the average pet home. However, I know plenty who are the "average" and many of them happen to have excellent shepherds that represent our breed beautifully. Umbrella statements and attacking certain lines and types of homes as a whole is wrong.
> 
> As of the video that was posted in the previous thread... yes, very upsetting, I 100% agree that those dogs are NOT what this breed should be... and it sickens me that those are considered "top notch" in the country that founded and nurtured this breed. I would expect so much more from those dogs. They are probably wonderful pets and dogs in general, but no... that's not what I want to see this breed building off of..... problem? Yeah, it is. Is the institution a bit corrupt? Sounds like it. Is that just found in 1 set of lines? Nope. That just happens to be the line that was represented where this video was taken. I'm open minded, with no blinders on..... I like to see all sides of the story before making assumptions and putting everything under an umbrella.
> 
> I know it will never happen, but it would be awesome to instead of seeing threads ripping other lines apart or the elitist "only the chosen people" can raise one.... instead.... let's get a thread about the institution, what needs help, what's good and bad about it? Where's this corruption stemming from and what can we all do about it? Right now, this is just back and forth bickering... what good is this doing?! Where would everyone like to see these lines go? Keep up with helping new people find the right breeders and point them in the right direction for their own research to begin. Point out what good and bad qualities to look out for. (which is why we have that awesome sticky on there... very helpful to new people to the breed!). When someone asks the genuine question about "should I get a GSD?"... give honest feedback without assuming anything. IMO, that is what will help. It's the ignorant general public who fuel the BYB and the greedy breeders with bad practices...... instead of insulting... inform. 1 person at a time is better than none. It doesn't take a genius or many years of experience to see all of this.... this is what I've seen, and IMO, this is what's going on and what needs help.
> 
> Disagree with what you all would like, I'm a sponge for knowledge and willing to hear the all sides... but, leave the elitist attitude and line bashing at a rest. It's causing too much tension on this forum and making many feel unwelcome. This doesn't help the breed at all.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## MadLab

> *I have personally seen more problematic working lines* (in working homes & pet homes, mind you) than showlines here. Of course I've seen SLs that are not running on all cylinders or having some electrical problems up stairs..... but that goes for ALL the lines... In fact, many breeds in general! I've seen bad owners and troubled dogs come from every angle. I won't target a specific line. Do I think this breed needs some help?


I'm wondering did you see more health issues in working dogs in comparison to show dogs. Or are you speaking about temperaments. Feel free to clarify


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## TrickyShepherd

MadLab said:


> I'm wondering did you see more health issues in working dogs in comparison to show dogs. Or are you speaking about temperaments. Feel free to clarify


Both. We have both on the fields here (WGSLs and ASLs are more popular here, but WLs are making their way pretty fast) and around all the different places. I've seen both work amazing, and I've seen a lot that I just simply didn't even want to watch.... trainwreck in action. I've seen a lot of problems with temperament in the workings lines lately.... lots of dogs coming in for "issues". I saw a working line dog nearly take off the head of it's owner not too long ago... came up the line. This dog was well exercised, well treated, healthy... etc. He even had some decent- what I'll call "pet" training... well mannered and well behaved (most of the time). The owner wasn't ignorant, and he's a decent owner... the dog isn't high drive either... not in the least bit.... had nothing to do with leaky drives or lack of capping ability, or frustration build up..... the dog had some lose screws. Management helped greatly, but he won't be "fixed". On the other hand... we also had a SL being worked with for a while that was nervy, and fell apart even with the slightest 'normal' stimulation or stress... he was fear aggressive too (not so much humans, but very much so with dogs). This dog was also well cared for. I'm not saying the owners had no responsibility (that I could never 100% say... I didn't live 24/7 with them), but in the end, both of those dogs were just not wired right. Weak nerves, temperaments were off, along with many other traits deviated from the standard.

There was a few dogs just pulled due to HD and another with elbow issues. Many were diagnosed with allergies and digestive issues. Most working lines...... again, on the other side.... we had some SLs too. In fact, mine was one of them. I have a WGSL that was pulled from IPO and Personal Protection not all that long ago for HD, and mysterious neurological issues.... all of which are causing some instability within the dog. I decided not to risk it, and instead of trailing, he was pulled from the sport altogether.

Also because of my dog's health right now, I see my vet quite often (more than I'd like to admit), and he's shared the same concerns with me with this breed. He owns them, he specializes in them, and he's the vet for the working breeders here, and our K9 department. He's sees many (and yes... most are WLs, though SLs are still dominant here). It doesn't mean all WLs (or SLs), and heck, maybe it's not even a higher percentage.... but it's definitely showing in all, not just one specifically. I personally, just see more WLs here with issues lately.

I can't help but see the connection though. It's the breed in general... can't point fingers at a specific line or home type. When I see a poorly bred GSD, that's what they are.... not "oh it's a SL" or WL, or ASL.. etc. It's a poorly bred GSD. Bad owners are the same... it's a bad owner.... I've seen mistreatment in all sorts of places, venues, and breeds. Just because someone does sports with their dogs, doesn't make them a good owner..... just like someone who has a family and owns a GSD, doesn't make them a bad owner or the dog doomed for the shelter.


----------



## Catu

TrickyShepherd said:


> -Labs are gradually becoming (at a fast pace) gigantic heaps of fat with no intelligence and loads of health issues... known for biting, and aggression... along with neurotic behaviors. Aren't they supposed to be 'family friendly' hunting dogs? Doesn't match up to me.
> 
> -Goldens are now going down the same path... I see the ones here that are taller than my GSDs and about 100-120lbs. Lazy, fearful/timid, aggressive, and full of health problems.... not what I remember raising years ago! My Goldens could have run an even match with the GSDs I know when it comes to drives and energy. They were sporting dogs...


Ban me if you want but...

In the Spanish working dogs and SAR dogs forums I belong every time someone asks for opinion about getting a Lab or a Golden the answer is: "It's OK as long it doesn't come from USA bloodlines."


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## GSDElsa

erfunhouse said:


> read the red


Your red is totally incorrect and Catu is totally correct.


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## GSDElsa

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its funny I checked the background of the person that was questioning me and the forum is full of posts about the struggles they were having with their SLs confidence.


Yeah, I think you were kind of missing Alexis' point


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## Liesje

Catu said:


> Ban me if you want but...
> 
> In the Spanish working dogs and SAR dogs forums I belong every time someone asks for opinion about getting a Lab or a Golden the answer is: "It's OK as long it doesn't come from USA bloodlines."


Sad truth. They are the most popular breeds here, very much over bred. However my good friend recently got a lab from a breeder that does SAR (I'm not sure which kind or which org) and her dogs almost exclusively go to SAR homes. This lab is SUCH a nice dog in every way, I am certain I want to get one from this breeder down the road when we can add a lab to our family. He's really the only lab that has impressed me enough to want to get one and I've been impressed with the breeder as well. As far as I know she is well known and respected in labs and the SAR community (travels doing training and demonstrations). I've always loved the lab temperament but most of the ones I've known have been so unhealthy


----------



## gsdlover91

What is up with all these threads on this general topic lately? Every day there is a new one..:shrug:

There are showline breeders who do go to great measures to keep the dog a working dog. I think it's very unfair to make an umbrella statement that showlines are ruining this breed, because of SOME of them. There are some WL dogs I've seen that would be a liability in public. Is that what the GSD is? A dog who cant go in public at all? But works GREAT? Thats not a balanced dog IMO. Or is the GSD only a dog who police, SAR, disabled people, etc, can own? Not the average pet owner who doesnt have a job for the dog? (who honestly...has a flock of sheep, or an endless supply of drugs and bad guys to REALLY give your dog a job? Or should I give myself a disability just to own this breed?) What about health issues? All lines have their FAIR share of issues. I think that is the bigger problem here, the health issues.. :thinking:

I think that the dog should retain its working capabilities, but honestly, if NO one who just wants a GSD as a companion, were allowed to have one, I think this breed would disappear quickly. Pet owners make up a majority of buyers. It's crazy that some of you on here think that the GSD is 'not the breed for me' because I wanted a GSD first and foremost as a companion, which in large, is the POINT of a dog. Dog sports arent the end of the world. I would choose my dog over a dog sport. Yes, they are important for testing the breeds working ability, I get that. But not EVERY single person with a GSD HAS to work their dog in schH in order to own one. (and fwiw, I do IPO with my LC showline, despite all the negative attention that may bring me and him out there. Berlin is the ONLY SL there...nerve-wracking to say the least! But atleast we get out there and do it, which is more than some can say. Even if he isnt a WL. Even if he wont ever get a title.) That brings another thing, maybe if these dog sports were more inviting to showline dogs, it would help. I know from my limited knowledge, most are NOT inviting toward showlines and seem to not want to give them a chance, or figure out how to work them. It takes alot of guts to go out there and train in a world full of intense working line dogs, clearly standing out, and having to prove yourself even MORE.

IMO, there are *always* going to be showlines. I just do hope they dont get so watered down in temperament, that they no longer have the characteristics I think of when I think of this breed. Even though my GSD is a furry red and black showline, he is as every bit German Shepherd as your working lines. Maybe not 'look wise' in your eyes, but temperament wise, yes. I think instead of trying to get rid of a line, or continually complaining about it, or saying that line is the downfall of the breed, we should educate others and promote ALL breeders who work their dogs. Showline included.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

Catu said:


> Ban me if you want but...
> 
> In the Spanish working dogs and SAR dogs forums I belong every time someone asks for opinion about getting a Lab or a Golden the answer is: "It's OK as long it doesn't come from USA bloodlines."


You wouldn't catch me disagreeing with that. My family bred and raised them when I was younger (goldens, not labs), and we kept as far as we could from the american lines. My favorite female (the one that ended up being "my" first dog) did have a small amount but it was carefully and strategically added. We liked the European dogs. They were in standard, stocky and shorter, finer (but stronger) coat, great working ability and drives, healthier, excellent solid temperaments.... overall a much nicer dog in general. 

Here in America, they are so extremely popular that no matter where I travel to.... I almost always see a sign for Golden or Lab pups. I see them in the shelters, our rescues are full of them, and almost every neighborhood has a ton of them. I do not dislike those two breeds.... in fact, I love both breeds how they actually are supposed to be. Great dogs, wonderful breeds, and probably some of the kindest souls. On the flip side... they can be a nightmare.

Popularity does some really crappy things for a breed..... it literally can turn them upside down in a pretty short amount of time.

Same problems occur in the horse world too. After the movie Spirit came out, and Hidalgo.... I can't even tell you how many kids starting getting mustangs. I love them, but not in the wrong hands! Scary! After Seabiscuit and Secretariat.... it was the Thoroughbreds. Right off the track and into the wrong hands..... I have a permanent injury because of this exact "trend". Ex race horse stud given to an 8yr old girl as a "hunter" prospect. Really?! He was clipped, but already was very "stud" minded, very hot headed and had a nasty attitude. He looked like Secretariat though! He ended up in a show barn I was working at... Great experienced owner by this time (eventing), but a horrible place to board him (she later left in a hurry once we made her aware of the issues going on).... Anyway, they forced me to clean the stall with this horse in it... threatened my job (struggling after college.. needed it too much), and ignored my concerns as I KNEW it wasn't safe... especially with that horse..... it was dark out, and without warning right as I was finishing the stall he ripped into my shoulder.... muscle gone. I don't approve popularity wants... trends shouldn't be what's running a decision when it comes to a live animal and their breeds future. But, for those looking for a quick buck... this is a perfect place to see this: $$$$$$$. That's what drives the problems within the GSD right now, and many other breeds. It's the breeds as a whole.


----------



## TAR HEEL MOM

Whew..I don't know Schutzhund from Shineola. In fact, until I found this forum I had never heard the term. I don't know if my gorgeous Tar is a working line dog or a show line dog. I've never been to a puppy training class with him. Here's what I do know....I picked him from a litter of 6 who came inot my shelter. I chose him because he chose me. I had no pl;an to add another dog to my home but I could not resist him. He was soft and bushy and beautiful. He was noble and so courageous and so smart! He is a great dog, who at the age of 18 months stays out of his crate when I'm not home and doesn't bother a thing. He loves his big sister, my 3 year old Lab who only hunts sticks in the woods, he was fairly easy to housebreak. He is not timid or skiddish or nervy. He loves every single dog I throw at him when I take him out to the shelter to play. My 75 year old mother walks him on a leash for me with no problems when I'm at work. And he loves every human that was ever born. He has made himself my protector, even going so far as sleeping outside my bedroom door on the hard floor when there is a full size futon in the next room that is just for him and the lab. He loves his family unfailingly and the only fault that I have with him is that he still wants to jump up on new people (and I'm sure this is my fault, not his) and I have a heck of a time with recall so I never let him off leash anywhere except on our forest land where he stays right beside me.

If I was richer and had more time off from work I might check into some training but in the meantime we are a happy and healthy little pack and I defy anyone to tell me that I should not own him or that he we be better off with someone else.

From..."just a pet owner."


----------



## marbury

max thoughts on breeding

Whether or not those are actual quotes from Stephanitz or not I do not know. I have not yet invested in his book so I cannot fact check.

I find them relevant and timely, if they are legitimately attributable, to this discussion.

"The shepherd dog is a service dog and must be bred as a service dog AND must only be judged as a service dog. With service dogs, suitability ranks higher than beauty; indeed their real beauty and their only nobility consist in their complete adaptability in the arrangement, balancing and coalescence of each and every part."

This one in particular is relevant. I believe that although the importance of the sport of schutzund to the breed might have been orchestrated in part by the breed founder, it should not be the sole determination of a GSD's value. How many high-ranking SCH dogs could not possibly provide further service to their home or master? With over-the-top drive, there's very little level mind left to provide companionship and council on the hearth, which is really the whole point of the GSD. There are plenty of good dogs with good off-switches, true. But devotion, an uncommonly personal relationship, and service-minded temperament... it sounds to me like that's the goal. AND the ability to 'work', to whatever capacity his master required. Not every master needs or wants his dog to work a sleeve. Some need their estate protected, or their herds moved. Or their children guarded.

Moderation and balance is very often the most desirable status in nature and in science. I believe it is true in dogs as well. Extremes in any capacity to me just isn't the point of our breed.


----------



## LifeofRiley

TrickyShepherd said:


> Popularity does some really crappy things for a breed..... it literally can turn them upside down in a pretty short amount of time.
> 
> But, for those looking for a quick buck... this is a perfect place to see this: $$$$$$$. That's what drives the problems within the GSD right now, and many other breeds. It's the breeds as a whole.


Until there are some kind of controls on breeding and/or purchasing practices, we will continue to see problems within all of the popular breeds. That is a fact. Not to mention that the pursuit of $$$ causes other animal welfare problems. It is a very sad state of affairs that really has nothing to do with lines, or with the GSD breed exclusively, it has to do with our consumer-driven society. 

I am not a breed expert or a breed fancier, just someone who enjoys learning about different aspects of the dog world. I have no opinion on which line is better, nor do I really care. As an observer, I just find it odd that there can be distinct lines that are apparently very different from each other within the same breed... I agree with others that this is likely a byproduct of people capitalizing off of a breed name to pursue their own ideas of perfection.

This board can argue until eternity about which is better, but in the interim there will be no shortage of people pumping out dogs to cater to the GSD market unless something changes. 

GSDs have been in the top 4, top 3 or top 2 of the popularity lists for a long time and they have suffered as a result just like the other popular breeds. 

Most popular breeds in the United States 2002-2012
Source: AKC registration statistics

2002:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Golden Retriever
3.	*German Shepherd*
4.	Beagles

2003:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Golden Retriever
3.	Beagles
4.	*German Shepherd*

2004:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Golden Retriever
3.	German Shepherd
4.	Beagles

2005:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Golden Retriever
3.	Yorkshire Terrier
4.	*German Shepherd*

2006:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Yorkshire Terrier
3.	*German Shepherd*
4.	Golden Retriever 

2007:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Yorkshire Terrier
3.	*German Shepherd*
4.	Golden Retriever 

2008:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	Yorkshire Terrier
3.	*German Shepherd*
4.	Golden Retriever 

2009:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	*German Shepherd*
3.	Yorkshire Terrier
4.	Golden Retriever

2010:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	*German Shepherd*
3.	Yorkshire Terrier
4.	Golden Retriever

2011:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	*German Shepherd*
3.	Beagles
4.	Golden Retriever

2012:
1.	Labrador Retriever
2.	*German Shepherd*
3.	Golden Retriever
4.	Beagles


----------



## Catu

marbury said:


> This one in particular is relevant. I believe that although the importance of the sport of schutzund to the breed might have been orchestrated in part by the breed founder, it should not be the sole determination of a GSD's value. How many high-ranking SCH dogs could not possibly provide further service to their home or master? With over-the-top drive, there's very little level mind left to provide companionship and council on the hearth, which is really the whole point of the GSD. There are plenty of good dogs with good off-switches, true. But devotion, an uncommonly personal relationship, and service-minded temperament... it sounds to me like that's the goal. AND the ability to 'work', to whatever capacity his master required. Not every master needs or wants his dog to work a sleeve. Some need their estate protected, or their herds moved. Or their children guarded.


Good to know.
I'll have to notify my SchH dog that he has to get off from the couch because he has too much drive to be a pet.

Sorry, but once agaaaaain and again, I see that people are confused with what drives and to have high drive really mean.
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


----------



## marbury

Catu said:


> Good to know.
> I'll have to notify my SchH dog that he has to get off from the couch because he has too much drive to be a pet.
> 
> Sorry, but once agaaaaain and again, I see that people are confused with what drives and to have high drive really mean.
> (Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


Once again, you think I'm referring to YOUR dog. I'm not. MOST GSDs fall in the middle ground. MOST GSDs don't have freaky high drive nor do they refuse to get up off the couch.

I'm rallying against the idea that there isn't a place for a MOST dog. I think the bell curve exists for a reason, and that the breed founder would NOT be happy if GSDs existed as an extreme niche breed that was only 'fit to be owned' by the exceptional handler.


----------



## onyx'girl

LifeofRiley said:


> *Until there are some kind of controls on breeding and/or purchasing practices, we will continue to see problems within all of the popular breeds. That is a fact. Not to mention that the pursuit of $$$ causes other animal welfare problems. It is a very sad state of affairs that really has nothing to do with lines, or with the GSD breed exclusively, it has to do with our consumer-driven society. *
> 
> I am not a breed expert or a breed fancier, just someone who enjoys learning about different aspects of the dog world. I have no opinion on which line is better, nor do I really care. As an observer, I just find it odd that there can be distinct lines that are apparently very different from each other within the same breed... I agree with others that this is likely a byproduct of people capitalizing off of a breed name to pursue their own ideas of perfection.
> 
> This board can argue until eternity about which is better, but in the interim there will be no shortage of people pumping out dogs to cater to the GSD market unless something changes.


There are controls in Germany, what good has it done? More control by who? The AKC, HSUS, PETA!? no....more rules/laws will not help.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Everyone seems to think this thread is a pot shot at their dog or their line.

IMO it's about the overall direction of the breed. Cliff has always as near as I can tell been against extremes. So when he talks about breeding for the pet population he is talking about a watered down version of the GSD standard. Not about any individuals pet dog or what line they came from.

He may not be a big fan of show lines in a general sense because of extreme breeding in some cases but I don't think he hates anybody's individual show dog. He has also spoken out about extremes in the working line sport crowd but never picked on any one in particular.

So it's more about what the breed will be 20 years from now if trends continue.

For those that come onto these threads to say how much they hate them, I would suggest doing what I do with stuff like (My puppy is eating his own poop HELP) threads. I stay away from them.

Cliff. If I got this wrong please correct me.

I personally don't want a GSD with low or no drive, that loves everybody, that pees on its self submissively. I don't want one that doesn't have a good dose of controlled aggression and protectiveness. I like them territorial about their home, property and family. I want one that thinks and has a degree of independence. I want absolutely rock solid nerves as number one trait and the temperamental stability to go along with it.

I'm sure if you don't want a GSD like I want you can find whatever your looking for out there.

I also don't care what others think of my dogs.

Want to point out that very few working line dogs work and most show lines out here in the real world don't show.

They can still both be fantastic pets or if bred wrong they can be a major liability.


----------



## Catu

marbury said:


> Once again, you think I'm referring to YOUR dog. I'm not. MOST GSDs fall in the middle ground. MOST GSDs don't have freaky high drive nor do they refuse to get up off the couch.


But my dog DOES have freaky high drives!! My point is not in what spectrum of the drive scale does he falls, but that drives by themselves doesn't affect the ability of a dog to be a pet.

That's why when people uses "drive" (whatever drive, whatever amount of it) as an argument by why WL are lousy pets to me it sound like someone arguing about the gender of number 5.


----------



## GatorDog

GSDElsa said:


> Yeah, I think you were kind of missing Alexis' point


Kind of.. 

I like the reference to background checks. Like comparing forum posts to a criminal record or something lol. Must know my life story now, huh?

Oh well. Got my IPO3 today with my less than confident and overly defensive and nervy half SL dog. And he ran 6 blinds and took real stick hits. And even took high tracking too! Real watered down. 

Check Blitzkreigs "background" and see when the last time they titled a dog was, lol. "No longer a GSD"...according to you?

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----------



## TrickyShepherd

LifeofRiley said:


> Until there are some kind of controls on breeding and/or purchasing practices, we will continue to see problems within all of the popular breeds. That is a fact. Not to mention that the pursuit of $$$ causes other animal welfare problems. It is a very sad state of affairs that really has nothing to do with lines, or with the GSD breed exclusively, it has to do with our consumer-driven society.
> 
> I am not a breed expert or a breed fancier, just someone who enjoys learning about different aspects of the dog world. I have no opinion on which line is better, nor do I really care. As an observer, I just find it odd that there can be distinct lines that are apparently very different from each other within the same breed... I agree with others that this is likely a byproduct of people capitalizing off of a breed name to pursue their own ideas of perfection.
> 
> This board can argue until eternity about which is better, but in the interim there will be no shortage of people pumping out dogs to cater to the GSD market unless something changes.
> 
> GSDs have been in the top 4, top 3 or top 2 of the popularity lists for a long time and they have suffered as a result just like the other popular breeds.
> 
> Most popular breeds in the United States 2002-2012
> Source: AKC registration statistics
> 
> 2002:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Golden Retriever
> 3.	*German Shepherd*
> 4.	Beagles
> 
> 2003:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Golden Retriever
> 3.	Beagles
> 4.	*German Shepherd*
> 
> 2004:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Golden Retriever
> 3.	German Shepherd
> 4.	Beagles
> 
> 2005:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Golden Retriever
> 3.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 4.	*German Shepherd*
> 
> 2006:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 3.	*German Shepherd*
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2007:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 3.	*German Shepherd*
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2008:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 3.	*German Shepherd*
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2009:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	*German Shepherd*
> 3.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2010:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	*German Shepherd*
> 3.	Yorkshire Terrier
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2011:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	*German Shepherd*
> 3.	Beagles
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 
> 2012:
> 1.	Labrador Retriever
> 2.	*German Shepherd*
> 3.	Golden Retriever
> 4.	Beagles



Not sure if you quoted me to try to dispute what I said or what (not trying to be rude, but I'm honestly not sure of your intended tone here)..... but, that bottom part is pretty much exactly what I mentioned before. It's not just the GSD, you're correct.... I stated that it's many other breeds... whatever is at the top of the popularity contest at the time. However, this is a GSD forum, so I've kept it a little more relevant.

Rules and regulations won't change anything here. People will always find loopholes, and as usual.... the law abiding, good people will get the crap at the bottom of the barrel. No, I don't want more rules and regulations... I don't need more people up my rear controlling what my dogs do, where I have them, and how I raise them. There are certain groups that I do not want to see given more power because to the typical general public, they look awesome.... read a bit more into it, and I guarantee you they are not. PETA has a whole 'nother agenda then what general joe and jane see.... for one, I am still amazed at how many pet owners follow them..... do they not understand that group is against pet ownership in ALL forms? I wish they'd understand that means their little fluffy and fido too.... they're not excluded.

There's no absolute clear cut way to fix it. Too many people, too many organizations, too many dogs, too many different countries and cultures, too many "breeders"... etc. etc. etc.... and our general public is very ignorant to the dog world and what's important (even for a pet)... so joe and jane will still go to money hungry breeder, or 5min. down the road Pet Store, and raise a lovely ball of nerves. Not everyone will run through this problem, but unfortunately, it's still going to be a good chunk. It's a popular breed, it's happens to them all. Until the breed's popularity goes down, there's really no "big fix". In one of my previous posts, I stated what we can do that would at least make a difference for a few.

None of my posts were towards any specific lines... as I stated, from what I've seen myself... it's the breed as a whole. They are not doomed, but their popularity has caused some complications and areas of improvement.


----------



## onyx'girl

GatorDog said:


> Kind of..
> 
> I like the reference to background checks. Like comparing forum posts to a criminal record or something lol. Must know my life story now, huh?
> 
> Oh well. *Got my IPO3 today* with my less than confident and overly defensive and nervy half SL dog. And he ran 6 blinds and took real stick hits. And even took high tracking too! Real watered down.
> 
> Check Blitzkreigs "background" and see when the last time they titled a dog was, lol. "No longer a GSD"...according to you?


Congrats to you and Aiden....time to change your signature!


----------



## marbury

Catu said:


> But my dog DOES have freaky high drives!! My point is not in what spectrum of the drive scale does he falls, but that drives by themselves doesn't affect the ability of a dog to be a pet.
> 
> That's why when people uses "drive" (whatever drive, whatever amount of it) as an argument by why WL are lousy pets to me it sound like someone arguing about the gender of number 5.


I see your point, I'm not criticizing a high drive dog. I have one. She's a pain, but I love her so much because she's so awesome when pointed in the right direction. I love working her because it is a challenge.
I guess our clinic just sees a lot of "Super Extra Ultra High Drive" GSDs, they're the ones I'm talking about. Because these are dogs that are SO anxious and SO self-destructive in the kennel that they have to be drugged, cannot have water bowls because they destroy them, and beat you up with enthusiastic greeting when you go to let them out. That's the high drive I'm talking about. They are dreadful to work with and if that is coupled with nerves or aggression... I can't imagine any of them living happily in most homes. They do not represent any form of balance.


----------



## Carriesue

Jack's Dad said:


> I personally don't want a GSD with low or no drive, that loves everybody, that pees on its self submissively. I don't want one that doesn't have a good dose of controlled aggression and protectiveness. I like them territorial about their home, property and family. I want one that thinks and has a degree of independence. I want absolutely rock solid nerves as number one trait and the temperamental stability to go along with it.
> 
> I'm sure if you don't want a GSD like I want you can find whatever your looking for out there.
> 
> I also don't care what others think of my dogs.
> 
> Want to point out that very few working line dogs work and most show lines out here in the real world don't show.
> 
> They can still both be fantastic pets or if bred wrong they can be a major liability.


What you described is exactly what my dog is and he's half SL. He goes almost everywhere with me and is totally relaxed yet he is watchful of what's going on around me. He and I were sitting in a park by ourselves once, a man walked up quickly behind me and I got nervous... My dog stood up, turned around and stared at the man right in the eye until he left then laid back down next to me. He's also extremely aloof to strangers and has an independent streak. I think that's part of the reason why we do so well with herding, he likes thinking for himself but pleasing me at the time. He's not a nervy neurotic low drive mess that crosses are apparently supposed to be. Yes we've had some issues along the way but they were more related to me being a newbie handler. 

I respect Cliff and understand what he's trying to say and not trying to take offense at people who have to throw their big epeens around. I absolutely do not want a watered down GSD either but I would absolutely own a SL again if it came from a breeder with proven working dogs like alta-tollhaus for example, I love what they're doing with their dogs. I would also own a WL, it's less about the lines for me and more about the individual dogs and their breeders.

I think people need to argue less and get out there and work with their dogs.


----------



## Merciel

TrickyShepherd said:


> They are not doomed, but their popularity has caused some complications and areas of improvement.


Isn't that the whole thread -- all of these threads -- in a nutshell?

But popularity has its up sides, too. For all the ills caused by having as huge and free a market as the U.S. does, it also means we have access to some genuinely great breeders and bloodlines. And thanks to forums like this one, and/or networks of people interested in particular aspects of dogdom, it's possible to find them pretty easily in the more popular breeds.

Through the competition circuit I've learned where to find great working Golden Retrievers and Labs. Through this forum and leads I've gotten here, I've learned where to find great working German Shepherds and (less directly, but still as a result of people I met from going to places I discovered through this board) Belgian Tervs and Malinois.

It's not all doom and gloom.


----------



## Catu

marbury said:


> I guess our clinic just sees a lot of "Super Extra Ultra High Drive" GSDs, they're the ones I'm talking about. Because these are dogs that are SO anxious and SO self-destructive in the kennel that they have to be drugged, cannot have water bowls because they destroy them, and beat you up with enthusiastic greeting when you go to let them out. That's the high drive I'm talking about. They are dreadful to work with and if that is coupled with nerves or aggression... I can't imagine any of them living happily in most homes. They do not represent any form of balance.


:headbang:
But that is NOT high drive, that is anxiousness!!!

I actually as a pet trainer see more of those in certain line, but I'm afraid to name it because the Big Brother is watching me...


----------



## onyx'girl

Catu said:


> :headbang:
> *But that is NOT high drive, that is anxiousness!!!*
> 
> I actually as a pet trainer see more of those in certain line, but *I'm afraid to name it because the Big Brother is watching me...


Exactly....

*and we don't want you to be banned too,shhhhh!


----------



## marbury

Catu said:


> :headbang:
> But that is NOT high drive, that is anxiousness!!!
> 
> I actually as a pet trainer see more of those in certain line, but I'm afraid to name it because the Big Brother is watching me...


Well alright then. Looks like you got me good, ol' boy! Enjoy flinging your epeen 'round in victory. :wild:

ETA: when they bite their own tails because they're bored and spinning in circles, how does that stem from anxiety and not a busy brain with no outlet? Curious, want to know. Feel free to PM if too off-topic. Not that this thread is in any clear direction as it is, lol!


----------



## gsdsar

Wow. These threads get old quick. Same ole same ole. Everyone has their opinion. That's cool. I tried to not post, I really did. 

As someone who actively works SAR dogs, thought I would jump in. SAR is, in many respects similar to any dog sport. The validity of the "title" is solely based on the organization testing the dog. There are a lot if crud SAR dogs out there. I blame the team for certifying the dog. Not the dog. A well trained and prepared SAR dog is breed worthy. IMHO. 

I currently have a certified USAR dog, Labrador. She is NOT your moms lab. She is aloof, unless you are working her. She does not care about other dogs or people. She wants to work. That's it. Anyone that works a true working line lab will probably agree. They are not the same as pet labs. The best place to find a solid working line lab is here in the States. You don't see them working in Britain. In Britain, they work Springers. A good Lab is a sight to behold. She amazes me. Enough about Labs. 

We are seeing fewer GSD in the USAR world. They are too expensive. And they don't always gel with the USAR environment. They think too much. Thinking is not good on rubble( to an extent).i am personally hoping that my new pup will work as a USAR dog. But who knows. 

Schutzhund is a sport. It has evolved into a game. Something that cannot be held as the sole " reason " someone says a dog is breed worthy, because it no longer serves its intended purpose for a majority of the participants. Done right, I guess you can learn a lot about the dog. Done wrong, or with the wrong intentions, it's letters after a name. Nothing more. The validity of the titles is in the training. And the integrity of the owner/handler. Plain and simple. 

I have owned dogs from most lines at this point. My WGSL coated girl, was the most stable, brave, driven dog. She was an amazing search dog. Hated thunderstorms, but would search through them, would approach strangers at night and engage, would cross small logs to get through a ravine, was responsive, easy to handle, a quick learner. 

A good dog has heart!!! They TRY. Those are the dogs that should be bred. We need to stop deciding that only certain titles and accomplishments are good enough. We need to look at the WHOLE dog. The much touted " German system" has failed, in so many ways. Look at videos. If we are to be breed ambassadors than we need to look at ourselves and be honest about our dogs, do the things necessary to test a dogs heart and drive and strength and quit putting others down. 




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----------



## TrickyShepherd

Merciel said:


> Isn't that the whole thread -- all of these threads -- in a nutshell?
> 
> But popularity has its up sides, too. For all the ills caused by having as huge and free a market as the U.S. does, it also means we have access to some genuinely great breeders and bloodlines. And thanks to forums like this one, and/or networks of people interested in particular aspects of dogdom, it's possible to find them pretty easily in the more popular breeds.
> 
> Through the competition circuit I've learned where to find great working Golden Retrievers and Labs. Through this forum and leads I've gotten here, I've learned where to find great working German Shepherds and (less directly, but still as a result of people I met from going to places I discovered through this board) Belgian Tervs and Malinois.
> 
> It's not all doom and gloom.


It's absolutely not doom and gloom, I agree. I never said you couldn't find good dogs here. Now, again, personally... myself and my family prefered the European lines of GRs. Our breedings, our choices. Worked out great, the dogs were awesome and lived very long happy lives with their families and ours. Are there good dogs here? Yep. We eventually mixed some American lines in.... we just understood that had to be taken in with some caution (same as GSDs). My female was the one from that combination. Best dog I've ever had. She was amazing. We never put down the American lines, but that wasn't our cup of tea.... we didn't go for that. 

Right now, the popularity of that breed and labs, GSDs, and Pits are hurting their reputation and their breeding practices... thus hurting the breed in general. That is absolutely not something I consider good for any breed in any shape or form. I'm going respectfully agree to disagree with you there. These boards will be here regardless of the breed's popularity, and information is still available to those who do their research. If their popularity wasn't so high, the demand wouldn't be so high..... the outcome: Less money hungry fake breeders with less than qualified dogs breeding and selling pups for $4000 just to line their bank account. Thus, leaving a good balance with the more moral and experienced breeders to carry our breed forward. It's the law of supply & demand. Not saying bad breeders won't exist... but there would not be nearly as many. How often do you hear of a terrible Shiba Inu breeder? At least here in FL, where they are not as popular (that's gaining steam though), you just don't see that. There's no signs on the road for Shiba pups, there's no Siba litters in our shelters on a daily basis, there's no Siba's roaming our streets homeless.. etc. People still have them here, but we don't have problems with them. 

After Air Bud came out... I can't even tell you how many calls my parents got. Even worse, the newspapers were FULL of ads "For Sale: Golden Retriever puppies!"..... and even worse than that.... the GR rescue was jam packed about a year later...... those "air bud pups" were just not as cute anymore.

This is what our general public does and sees through their inexperienced eyes.... some find these forums, get great advice and end up on an excellent path. Some come on here, get flamed or not even a "hello, welcome", and they end up going whatever way they think is ok (pet store, or the breeder with those little irresistible pups on the ground ready to go at 5 weeks.... no history on the lines, no health checks, etc.). Or you get those that really have NO idea that such places like this exist, they never find out and end up in a huge mess.... Or not. Some don't.

This board is a great place for information and for priceless experience and knowledge. I've always stated that... and I'm still here... obviously I find something great about it. However, there's ways it can help and ways it can harm (not maliciously or even intended, but still harmful). I have no problem with these threads, but I feel what they turn into is wrong.... line bashing, assumptions of types of homes acceptable, blanket statements, criticizing, feelings getting hurt, etc..... that's not helpful. The breed overall needs a bit of help.... not a specific line or type of home.. but the whole thing. I just would rather see these types of threads become (and stay) useful.... without a bunch of fighting fire with fire and inflammatory statements. There's been too much of that lately.... even though it matter not even in the least to me, it does get old, and eventually it really becomes obvious to the new members here that are actually looking for help.... who wants to ask about advice on their SL's training when they come on and see these threads? Not very welcoming, IMO. 

That's why most just PM instead now when they have questions...... then, why have a forum at all?


----------



## Merciel

TrickyShepherd said:


> I never said you couldn't find good dogs here.


Oh, no, I apologize if it seemed like I was implying that you had. I really meant that to be a little more directed at Catu. I was just disappointed to see that there was a perception that American Golden Retrievers weren't good SAR prospects.

Because I'm mostly active in Rally/obedience circles, and Goldens are among the dominant breeds in those sports (seriously, just look at how often it's a Golden winning NOC), and I happen to know a couple of great Lab breeders who, yes, breed SAR dogs... I just felt like I had to go "nooo we have good dogs in those breeds too, we really do!!"


----------



## holland

Yes I train with some very nice goldens and labs


----------



## dogfaeries

This has nothing to do with anything, but we have some incredibly well trained goldens up at the local training center. I watched a woman pack up her training bag and hand it to one golden, and hand a stainless steel bowl to the other one. They politely walked, holding their items, off leash, out the door to her car, wagging their tails the whole way. I just looked at Carly, and shook my head, lol. 


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## Xeph

^^Absolutely EXCELLENT post gsdsar!


----------



## TrickyShepherd

Merciel said:


> Oh, no, I apologize if it seemed like I was implying that you had. I really meant that to be a little more directed at Catu. I was just disappointed to see that there was a perception that American Golden Retrievers weren't good SAR prospects.
> 
> Because I'm mostly active in Rally/obedience circles, and Goldens are among the dominant breeds in those sports (seriously, just look at how often it's a Golden winning NOC), and I happen to know a couple of great Lab breeders who, yes, breed SAR dogs... I just felt like I had to go "nooo we have good dogs in those breeds too, we really do!!"


No worries, I just didn't want that to come across that way. WE did not prefer the American lines.... at the time, it was going a bit downhill and we just didn't want to chance it for the longest time. We found a really nice representative, and a breeder that brought a great deal of positive things to our dogs.... and that's how we got my female with some American lines in her. However, just like purchasing any dog.... it comes with a side of caution. I look at goldens the same way I do GSDs. I would ask the same types of questions to a GR breeder as I would a GSD breeder (tweaked a bit to fit the breed of course). Work ethic, drives, conformation, respect for standards, temperament, health.. etc. I've seen some nice American line dogs....... All I suggest to those looking for one (as the breed is supposed to be) is sticking with the field type breeders (in labs and GR), they tend to keep to the standard and keep the brains in the dogs. They are a very active, very intelligent breed if bred correctly. Those dogs can excel in MANY sport arenas.

For example (and excuse me for going a bit off topic and another breed :blush.... but I love watching this lady's videos with her goldens. They remind me of my girl. Just look at that enthusiasm! :wub: I've never seen the dog's pedigree... but, from the looks of it, from a horrible quality youtube video.. I would say this dog is AM lines.. either a mix of lines, or full. Not doom and gloom at all... and no, not impossible to find.





What I was really getting at in my post before was more about the rise of supply/demand with popular breeds and what we see spring up because of this. It has nothing to do with specific lines. Many breeds are hurting, but line bashing isn't going to help.... the video that had everyone flamed up in these few threads now, have just so happened to be targeted on the WGSL. It's seen everywhere. We just "notice" more of the SLs here, because those are the "popular" well known style of dogs within the general American public. Just like that typical dark red golden retriever that's 100lbs and 'calm' is "acceptable" to our general public because that's what they're used to seeing... the "norm". No matter how incorrect it is, that's what they are inclined to buy. That's not all those lines are about though.. that's just the ugly side of the dog world that needs some work. Can't get rid of it... but, helping 1 new person at a time will at least help a little..... being unwelcoming doesn't.

I like to think of this forum as a comfortable place to go with questions and concerns.... especially with those who understand the breed and the struggles/triumphs that come with the territory. I think many are not feeling this way anymore. Doesn't matter what they own.... ASL, WL of any kind, WGSL, White GSD.... they are all GSDs, and that's the name of this forum.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

gsdsar said:


> A good dog has heart!!! They TRY. Those are the dogs that should be bred. We need to stop deciding that only certain titles and accomplishments are good enough. We need to look at the WHOLE dog. The much touted " German system" has failed, in so many ways. Look at videos. If we are to be breed ambassadors than we need to look at ourselves and be honest about our dogs, do the things necessary to test a dogs heart and drive and strength and quit putting others down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I totally agree with you. I feel very privileged to have a dog who not only gave his all during our training and trials, but more than anything, the most important job he has right now is being the best friend to my son and he does that job perfectly. My dog has a big heart, he had magically made our home complete again after my 2 dogs passed away.


----------



## robk

Great GSDs are readily available and easily accessable to anyone who wants one and takes the time to look for one. There are also poor quality dogs readily available to those people who do not take the time to look for a good one. The problem is not with the breed but with people and what their interest and effort level is. No different than any other area of life.

Want to buy a car? There are plenty of dealers who will give you a great deal. There are also plenty of places to get ripped off. It's your choice to do your own research before you buy. 

For those people who think the GSD is ruined and are now running to Mals and Dutch shepherds, I assure you, you can find neurotic nerve bags in those breeds as well if you are not careful. I like Mals and Dutch shepherds but I've seen examples of those dogs that I would not give $2 for. Especially Mals. Talk about not being able to settle! My friends Mal was eating the walls of his house every time he left.


----------



## GSDElsa

marbury said:


> Well alright then. Looks like you got me good, ol' boy! Enjoy flinging your epeen 'round in victory. :wild:
> 
> ETA: when they bite their own tails because they're bored and spinning in circles, how does that stem from anxiety and not a busy brain with no outlet? Curious, want to know. Feel free to PM if too off-topic. Not that this thread is in any clear direction as it is, lol!


it is seriously disturbing to me that a BREEDER would think this is DRIVE! It's neurotic behavior pain and simple. A "busy mind with no outlet" has nothing to do with drive.


----------



## MilesNY

GatorDog said:


> Kind of..
> 
> I like the reference to background checks. Like comparing forum posts to a criminal record or something lol. Must know my life story now, huh?
> 
> Oh well. Got my IPO3 today with my less than confident and overly defensive and nervy half SL dog. And he ran 6 blinds and took real stick hits. And even took high tracking too! Real watered down.
> 
> Check Blitzkreigs "background" and see when the last time they titled a dog was, lol. "No longer a GSD"...according to you?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are being modest. And I would put his tracking drive, focus and intensity against any working line dog! It's was so so great to watch that handsome beast work!!!


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----------



## Merciel

marbury said:


> ETA: when they bite their own tails because they're bored and spinning in circles, how does that stem from anxiety and not a busy brain with no outlet? Curious, want to know. Feel free to PM if too off-topic. Not that this thread is in any clear direction as it is, lol!


It can be either/or, or a combination of both, as I'm sure you know. Pongu chews holes in his tail out of anxiety/OCD. Other dogs do it because they're severely understimulated.

But a "busy brain with no outlet" isn't the same thing as drive. A really good way to distinguish drive from hectic behavior, which I stumbled across yesterday while reading Denise Fenzi's book, is this: Can you easily tell what the dog's focal point is? If the answer is "yes," then you have drive (usable). If the answer is "no," then you have hectic or frantic behavior (not usable).

A drivy dog wants something. A tug, a ball, some food, interaction with the handler, to win a fight -- but _something_. There's some purposeful goal to its activity. A frantic dog has no purpose. That's the difference.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yahoo! Congratulations!




GatorDog said:


> Kind of..
> 
> I like the reference to background checks. Like comparing forum posts to a criminal record or something lol. Must know my life story now, huh?
> 
> Oh well. *Got my IPO3 today* with my less than confident and overly defensive and nervy half SL dog. And he ran 6 blinds and took real stick hits. And even took high tracking too! Real watered down.
> 
> Check Blitzkreigs "background" and see when the last time they titled a dog was, lol. "No longer a GSD"...according to you?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## llombardo

dogfaeries said:


> This has nothing to do with anything, but we have some incredibly well trained goldens up at the local training center. I watched a woman pack up her training bag and hand it to one golden, and hand a stainless steel bowl to the other one. They politely walked, holding their items, off leash, out the door to her car, wagging their tails the whole way. I just looked at Carly, and shook my head, lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I have 2 GSD's and 2 Goldens. My oldest Golden is by far the most obedient dog I have ever had, he loves doing any kind of obedience. I expect the younger one to follow suit. Don't get me wrong, the GSD's are right up there, but they are younger and are really close as far as obedience.


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## marbury

GSDElsa said:


> it is seriously disturbing to me that a BREEDER would think this is DRIVE! It's neurotic behavior pain and simple. A "busy mind with no outlet" has nothing to do with drive.


I was just trying to make a point and executed it badly, for goodness sake. I'm not very good at articulating what I'm trying to say on this forum for some reason. One day I'll learn to triple-check what I type to see if it comes across clearly before hitting "Submit Reply"!

If you want to take this up, do so in PMs. I'm not yet a 'real' breeder, never had a litter of my own and none planned. So unfortunately I can't nab you for breeder bashing, but that was a blatant personal attack. I'm here to educate myself and by this forum's 'standards' of what a GSD is I only JUST got my first 'real' one over a month ago (despite having three others). I'm looking into three local schutzund clubs to start attending, so if anybody has any experience with South Metro Atlanta club let me know via PM. So no, I'm absolutely no good at defining 'drive' right now, because I'm one of the folks on here that started with ASL and loved them. BECAUSE OF THIS FORUM I went further and tried a working line. BECAUSE OF THIS FORUM I more fully appreciate what this breed is capable of and how beautiful it is. Not because of jerks that took personal pot-shots, but because of great folks that taught me.

So attack me, sure. Go for it. Make yourself feel better, and I'll be over here learning. If you want to keep this up, take it to PMs or a mod will likely be by and give us both a talking to. I'm always game to play!


----------



## Catu

So now the campaign of terror. 

So this is what the forum has become... please the masses, this a business who wants as many costumers as possible.


----------



## marbury

Catu said:


> So this is what the forum has become... please the masses, this a business who wants as many costumers as possible.


Consumers, I hope? Although Halloween is approaching...

Really, though, there's a HUGE difference between what happens on this forum and what happens in real life. People aren't going to go back to the 'real world' and make sweeping tides of change in the GSD. Talk is cheap and work is hard. We can gab all we want but it won't make a lick of difference in the grand scheme.

It's still evidently fun to talk about, though.


----------



## RocketDog

I feel like I just wasted valuable time on my one day off reading this thread. I went and skimmed some of the linked threads as well. Not much really changes over time, I guess. 

People always qualify their statements with "there are good bloodlines and bad bloodlines in both SL and WL" or some such blanket. I think if people want to make a difference, start point out the bloodlines. If you feel strongly about it, and really think you "see" something, then back it up. Quit posting "I've seen many dogs". Start posting the dogs themselves. This might be the only way to weed out dogs who shouldn't be bred. 

Of course, then you have to factor in whether the issue is really the dog or the handling. Some people are really crappy owners/handlers/trainers, obviously by the videos, even at high competition levels. How can anyone truly say that _some_ of those gasp-inducing dogs on those videos might not have performed differently with different handlers from the beginning? Of course, my opinion is worth the paper I'm writing this on, because I've never competed or trained formerly at all. 

Anyhow, I'm interested in names and why people feel the way they do about them. And if you have the walk to back up the talk.


----------



## Freestep

marbury said:


> I guess our clinic just sees a lot of "Super Extra Ultra High Drive" GSDs, they're the ones I'm talking about. Because these are dogs that are SO anxious and SO self-destructive in the kennel that they have to be drugged, cannot have water bowls because they destroy them, and beat you up with enthusiastic greeting when you go to let them out. That's the high drive I'm talking about. They are dreadful to work with and if that is coupled with nerves or aggression... I can't imagine any of them living happily in most homes. They do not represent any form of balance.





Catu said:


> :headbang:
> But that is NOT high drive, that is anxiousness!!!


That's what I was going to say. A high-drive dog is not necessarily a hyperactive dog, or a nervous dog, an aggressive dog, or an anxious dog. In fact, if the dog has drive, that drive can help him overcome certain issues. 

A high-drive dog can be VERY energetic and driven on the field, and yet settle nicely in the home or out and about in public. Energy levels and the ability to cap drive is key. High drive dogs can be very calm and stable when not working. 



gsdsar said:


> We are seeing fewer GSD in the USAR world. They are too expensive. And they don't always gel with the USAR environment. They think too much. Thinking is not good on rubble( to an extent).


That's interesting. When you say "think", do you mean they hesitate, pick and choose their path carefully? As opposed to blindly rushing over the rubble like an idiot?  I can see where you would need the latter in certain situations, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for the dog. I can see how a very drivey, non-thinking dog could injure himself in such a situation.


----------



## gsdsar

> That's interesting. When you say "think", do you mean they hesitate, pick and choose their path carefully? As opposed to blindly rushing over the rubble like an idiot?  I can see where you would need the latter in certain situations, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for the dog. I can see how a very drivey, non-thinking dog could injure himself in such a situation.


Rubble work is very intense. There are huge voids, small spaces, tight walks. GSD, and the drives they tap into to do the work, don't always think its the brightest idea. So they over think their path. 

It's hard to articulate, but I will try. A Labrador taps into their innate desire to retrieve and interact. They " think" a bit less about how they go about it. A GSD, works from a different place. They think about their footing, the decide if if it is important enough to continue and engage with a person. Then they think if their engagement is worth it. 

That said, when you find a GSD that can do the work, they are amazing. As good as, if not better, than labs. I know quite a few GSD, that blow me away. It's just harder to find the right mix of innate drive, fight(yes fight) agility, confidence and sociability to do the work at the highest levels. 

I don't want a dog that either thinks too much or not enough. My lab takes some pretty scary jumps, leaps, bridges. My heart stops when I se her jump a 4 foot void to land on a small beam above her head. A dog that has no self preservation is useless as well. They need to keep their wits about them. Too many GSD, over analyze. It slows them down. When they slow down to think about footing, they go out if drive. They go out if drive, they stop caring about the reward. 

I am speaking in HUGE generalities here. All I know for positive, it is waaaay easier to find a Lab for USAR, than a GSD. At a much cheaper cost. 

I am trying things different with my new pup. We walk on the rubble, out if drive, just walk. I want the rubble to be "just another surface" not a high anxiety, high drive place. I want it to be irrelevant. I want him to just move around. Pairing it with drive and subjects will come later. No idea if it will work, will know in a year or 2. LOL. 

A GSD that certifies in USAR, is breed worthy. No doubt in my mind. I have seen highly driven, SchH titled dogs shut down on the rubble. It's intense. It needs a special dog. 

Clear as mud? 






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----------



## Catu

The problem I've seen in GSDs, mine included, is with the alert. A lab finds the scent cone, runs to where it's coming from and bark like crazy. A GSD finds the scent come, runs to where its coming from and searches the area for ways to get closer, which means time lost and higher risk of injury. If they don't find any way to get directly to the victim the may even scratch and bite the place trying to remove the debris. Again, dangerous for both the dog and the victim/helper. Once the GSD ruled out all alternatives to get to the victim by itself... he barks.

Right now I'm building an alert box I saw in France designed specially to correct this issue. Perhaps not rare since all their dogs where Malis and GSDs.

Just past month Diabla jumped through the window of a second floor, good thing she is light and sturdy and nothing happened to her. While on the IRO certification she almost stabbed herself with an iron stick trying to get through a hole too small for her and I had to recall her to check for injuries. It costed me the level B of the RH-T, because while we all knew Diabla had found the last victim, she didn't alert.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

RocketDog said:


> I feel like I just wasted valuable time on my one day off reading this thread. I went and skimmed some of the linked threads as well. Not much really changes over time, I guess.
> 
> People always qualify their statements with "there are good bloodlines and bad bloodlines in both SL and WL" or some such blanket. I think if people want to make a difference, start point out the bloodlines. If you feel strongly about it, and really think you "see" something, then back it up. Quit posting "I've seen many dogs". Start posting the dogs themselves. This might be the only way to weed out dogs who shouldn't be bred.
> 
> Of course, then you have to factor in whether the issue is really the dog or the handling. Some people are really crappy owners/handlers/trainers, obviously by the videos, even at high competition levels. How can anyone truly say that _some_ of those gasp-inducing dogs on those videos might not have performed differently with different handlers from the beginning? Of course, my opinion is worth the paper I'm writing this on, because I've never competed or trained formerly at all.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm interested in names and why people feel the way they do about them. And if you have the walk to back up the talk.


IMO, it's pointless to start that in this thread, which is why I did not and yes I was one that stated "I've seen many in all lines"... That wasn't the point of this thread. Why I said that is to get people off of the "it's only the 1 line causing all the destruction!!".... No, it's not. It's the breed as a whole and it's due to many different factors. Some we can fix, some we can't.. we can only help sway against the tide. Which is why I also mentioned the importance of helping the new members find the right path. 1 at a time is better than none. I'd much rather see a blanket statement of "I've seen many in all lines", than fire and pitchfork mobs on a single line, while being completely blindfolded to the overall problem. There are MANY threads out there about all the different dogs through many of the different lines that are great and not so great (on here, and other forums as well). That's why people need to research. If they are in question, post up a pedigree, learn about it and ask around. Lots of different levels of experience here, and lots of information available. If we were to sit in 1 thread and post the greats and the worst of each different line of GSDs over all the years they've been around.... we'd be here forever and this would be a ridiculous length, to the point that no one could really even go through it all. I don't see that helping and the information would either be looked over, or not relevant to the one searching. Although, I definitely advocate helping people out, pointing them in the right direction and so on (I've stated that many times, and I help anywhere I have knowledge about, when I have the time to post it).... It's also not everyone's job here to spoon feed the lazy. Who has that kind of time? I know I don't.


----------



## mycobraracr

RocketDog said:


> Of course, then you have to factor in whether the issue is really the dog or the handling. Some people are really crappy owners/handlers/trainers, obviously by the videos, even at high competition levels. How can anyone truly say that _some_ of those gasp-inducing dogs on those videos might not have performed differently with different handlers from the beginning? Of course, my opinion is worth the paper I'm writing this on, because I've never competed or trained formerly at all.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm interested in names and why people feel the way they do about them. And if you have the walk to back up the talk.


 
I will say it again. The problem is, people are looking at these videos/dogs and are not *EXPERIENCED *enough to see the dogs qualities through all the training. Yet they want to come here and argue the "facts". Everyone keeps bringing up schuthund so here. Schutzhund titles don't mean the dog is perfect. It is merely a* VENUE* created *to SHOWCASE *a dog so that the *EXPERIENCED *people can see the *QUALITIES *in the dog. Can good training and handling hide some of this? Sure, but not all. We have to be able to look past the "flashy" performance and look at the dog. Not weather or not it could achieve it, but rather what *characteristics *are in the dog. Another step people seem to forget, isn't weather or not a dog with the right training can achieve the title, but rather how much effort it took to get said dog to that point. If I have to spend four years to build a dog up to be able to achieve an IPO1, does that dog posses the same characteristics as the dog that could do it in two because it didn't have to be built up so much? 

As for mentioning specific dogs and lines. That would never fly. Look at all these threads. They are nothing but people emotions and feelings, not facts. Until people can take their blinders off and objectively look at specific dogs including their own these topics will get nowhere. Couple that with the fact that most people set on arguing, don't have near the experience required to accurately do so.


----------



## GatorDog

mycobraracr said:


> I will say it again. The problem is, people are looking at these videos/dogs and are not *EXPERIENCED *enough to see the dogs qualities through all the training. Yet they want to come here and argue the "facts". Everyone keeps bringing up schuthund so here. Schutzhund titles don't mean the dog is perfect. It is merely a* VENUE* created *to SHOWCASE *a dog so that the *EXPERIENCED *people can see the *QUALITIES *in the dog. Can good training and handling hide some of this? Sure, but not all. We have to be able to look past the "flashy" performance and look at the dog. Not weather or not it could achieve it, but rather what *characteristics *are in the dog. Another step people seem to forget, isn't weather or not a dog with the right training can achieve the title, but rather how much effort it took to get said dog to that point. If I have to spend four years to build a dog up to be able to achieve an IPO1, does that dog posses the same characteristics as the dog that could do it in two because it didn't have to be built up so much?
> 
> As for mentioning specific dogs and lines. That would never fly. Look at all these threads. They are nothing but people emotions and feelings, not facts. Until people can take their blinders off and objectively look at specific dogs including their own these topics will get nowhere. Couple that with the fact that most people set on arguing, don't have near the experience required to accurately do so.


THANK YOU. This is the best thing I've read here yet.

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----------



## RocketDog

mycobraracr said:


> I will say it again. The problem is, people are looking at these videos/dogs and are not *EXPERIENCED *enough to see the dogs qualities through all the training. Yet they want to come here and argue the "facts". Everyone keeps bringing up schuthund so here. Schutzhund titles don't mean the dog is perfect. It is merely a* VENUE* created *to SHOWCASE *a dog so that the *EXPERIENCED *people can see the *QUALITIES *in the dog. Can good training and handling hide some of this? Sure, but not all. We have to be able to look past the "flashy" performance and look at the dog. Not weather or not it could achieve it, but rather what *characteristics *are in the dog. Another step people seem to forget, isn't weather or not a dog with the right training can achieve the title, but rather how much effort it took to get said dog to that point. If I have to spend four years to build a dog up to be able to achieve an IPO1, does that dog posses the same characteristics as the dog that could do it in two because it didn't have to be built up so much?
> 
> As for mentioning specific dogs and lines. That would never fly. Look at all these threads. They are nothing but people emotions and feelings, not facts. Until people can take their blinders off and objectively look at specific dogs including their own these topics will get nowhere. Couple that with the fact that most people set on arguing, don't have near the experience required to accurately do so.


First paragraph: I agree that what is important is the essence of the dog. But isn't it possible to "ruin" a good dog with bad handling? 

Second paragraph: Also agree. But facts are facts, aren't they? I guess I'm just not interested in arguing emotions. I'd rather have people discuss dogs in terms of why this dog is so solid and the signs of why that dog is not. You're right probably in that this will never happen, because people won't be objective or take their blinders off. 

I know everyone is all about going out and seeing the dogs, and those who don't are considered lazy, but for some of us, it's at least a 6 hour drive to any decent venue or competition. There are some very good breeders on the other side of the state, about 500 miles from me.  As much as I love the breed, and would like nothing better than to immerse myself in studying actual dogs in competition and work, I have one day off a week from work and it's very unfeasible to spend half of it driving. I used to think I could learn something here, but now I realize there is a lot of smoke and mirrors on the board, combined with a healthy dose of emotion. Guess I'll just have to hope either life takes me to a better location someday, or Spokane suddenly becomes a mecca of GSD competitions and trainers. Heh.


----------



## LifeofRiley

I think that the existence of multiple lines within any given breed is symptomatic of disputes within the breed fancy world as to the proper direction of the breed. Disputes of this type tend to have polarizing effects where no one side is willing to to take the first step toward compromise.

Based on a little bit of research, it appears that the split between working and show lines started in the late 60s/early 70s but only reached a point where it would resemble what we see today in the mid/late 80s and early 90s. (Please do correct me if I am wrong on the timeline)

So, as this seems to be a relatively recent development in the breed, I can understand why those people who have been involved in the breed for a very long time would be very passionate about the topic.

What I don’t understand is why more people aren’t talking about ways to re-unite the lines. It seems to me - as just an observer - that this would be the healthiest path forward for the breed. Is it simply impossible? Is it a bad idea?

Again, as a complete outsider, it would seem to me that the presence of distinct lines has the potential to lead to further sub-specialization. And that, at least from a genetic diversity standpoint, doesn’t seem wise. 

P.S. I thought the posts about SAR dogs on this thread were really interesting - thanks gsdsar and Catu!


----------



## mycobraracr

RocketDog said:


> First paragraph: I agree that what is important is the essence of the dog. But isn't it possible to "ruin" a good dog with bad handling?
> 
> Second paragraph: Also agree. But facts are facts, aren't they? I guess I'm just not interested in arguing emotions. I'd rather have people discuss dogs in terms of why this dog is so solid and the signs of why that dog is not. You're right probably in that this will never happen, because people won't be objective or take their blinders off.
> 
> I know everyone is all about going out and seeing the dogs, and those who don't are considered lazy, but for some of us, it's at least a 6 hour drive to any decent venue or competition. There are some very good breeders on the other side of the state, about 500 miles from me.  As much as I love the breed, and would like nothing better than to immerse myself in studying actual dogs in competition and work, I have one day off a week from work and it's very unfeasible to spend half of it driving. I used to think I could learn something here, but now I realize there is a lot of smoke and mirrors on the board, combined with a healthy dose of emotion. Guess I'll just have to hope either life takes me to a better location someday, or Spokane suddenly becomes a mecca of GSD competitions and trainers. Heh.


 
Yes, it is possible to ruin a good dog with bad training. So the now ruined dog shouldn't be bred as it's bad training has now created character flaws in the dog that can be passed down to the puppies. Something people often don't think about. 


Facts are facts. But if we are looking at a training video of a dog, we 1)don't know the training background of the dog. 2) We don't know what was trying to be accomplished in that training session, so it's hard to accurately judge a dog. In a trial video, we can't always see everything. How big was the trial? What's happening on the sidelines that we cant see? Temperature can be a factor. Was the handler stressed? I know you don't like blanket answers, but unfortunately we are dealing with living creatures and that means a lot of variables. Until you can get out there, you just cant see all these things. Is the dog squinting on a drive? Does it breakdown on the courage test? If so is it training or a confidence issue? Does the dogs grip shift with stick hits? Does hit hunker it's shoulders during drive/stick hits? In the blind is it simply barking or truly trying to push the helper into a fight? On the escape, is it along for the ride or fighting the helper? When the helper locks up the dog thrashing on the sleeve or calm? If thrashing is it due to lack of nerve or over the top confidence and it's trying to dominate/control the helper. So see, the dog could be doing the same thing's but dependent on the dog it can mean something completely different. 

Not trying to muddy the waters, trust trying to show that just doing this based on video isn't really fare or accurate.


----------



## RocketDog

You are preaching to the choir. 

I don't think I explained myself very well in my initial post. Part of my frustration is that there seems to be a lot of knowledge by people who have been in this breed a long time on this board, but they don't often offer specifics. Which I guess is probably due to the reception when they have. But it is frustrating for those of us who would like to learn from people with experience in actually handling and seeing, breeding. 

I guess in the end it just comes down to individual communication with these people. I know for a fact that I have a list of people,,that when I am ready for another dog, I will be sure to contact. And then of those people and based on the recommendations, I am willing to drive and spend time to assess if that individual's program and dogs are what I want. I would just like to expand my general knowledge of the breed on the board without having to drive all over Timbuktu.


----------



## mycobraracr

RocketDog said:


> You are preaching to the choir.
> 
> I don't think I explained myself very well in my initial post. Part of my frustration is that there seems to be a lot of knowledge by people who been in this breed a long time on this board, but they don't often offer specifics. Which I guess is probably due to the reception when they have. But it is frustrating for those of us who would like to learn from people with experience in actually handling and seeing, breeding.
> 
> Well I guess in the end it just comes down to individual communication with these people. I know for a fact that I have a list of people,,that when I am ready for another dog, I will be sure to contact. And then of those people and based on the recommendations, I am willing to drive and spend time to assess if that individual's program and dogs are what I want. I would just like to expand my general knowledge of the breed on the board without having to drive all over Timbuktu.


 
Oh, got ya. Yes I completely agree. Even in PM's I ask questions to the knowledgeable ones and still get the vague answers. For me, when I get those vague answers, it drives me to research more and draw my own conclusion or see why they are vague. Most of the time it's because of things mentioned in my last post.


----------



## Liesje

Some of the most experienced GSD folks I've been able to communicate with (and probably the most "popular" or well respected people on this very forum) have offered me some very specific advice about my dog, his training, and breeding and most times I end up feeling like I'm the one that underestimated my dog, yes the show line.  That's why these threads don't really get to me any more. The folks that actually know my dog and have had a part in his development and training have been infinitely more helpful than threads with hypotheticals and generalizations.


----------



## onyx'girl

There is a reason spoonfeeding is bad....as well as drinking the kool-aid


----------



## mycobraracr

onyx'girl said:


> There is a reason spoonfeeding is bad....


 
Yes I seem to learn a lot more by getting forked . 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


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## Blitzkrieg1

GatorDog said:


> Kind of..
> 
> I like the reference to background checks. Like comparing forum posts to a criminal record or something lol. Must know my life story now, huh?
> 
> Oh well. Got my IPO3 today with my less than confident and overly defensive and nervy half SL dog. And he ran 6 blinds and took real stick hits. And even took high tracking too! Real watered down.
> 
> Check Blitzkreigs "background" and see when the last time they titled a dog was, lol. "No longer a GSD"...according to you?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol good for you...in that thread I believe I was talking about many SL dogs earning titles they did not deserve. Which is if anything proved by the list of sieger dogs this year. You took it as a personal attack and chose to engage with me. I assumed you were saying that your dog was srrong. Happened to be reading previous schh posts and came across the issues you were having which if anything is the opposite of your implication. Never really questioned your handling, ill assume its fair to good if you have put an ipo 3 on a dog...which really has no impact on the topic at hand or the previous one either. 

Fyi I may be newer to sch but i have actually done patrol work with a K9 in places you would never be caught dead in with nothing but a dog...your probably a better sport handler then I. We will see though when my pup gets where she is going.. Which doesnt change that i know what I like in a dog and what I see with the current situation. Weak dogs everywhere being given passes and having excuses made for them by handlers, judges, and breeders. I know what others i spend time with more experienced then you or I tell me too. Im not saying anything ground breaking here am I? Thought i was just stating the obvious..but ofcourse people get their feelings hurt. Gotta watch out for those feelings.


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## GatorDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol good for you...in that thread I believe I was talking about many SL dogs earning titles they did not deserve. Which is if anything proved by the list of sieger dogs this year. You took it as a personal attack and chose to engage with me. I assumed you were saying that your dog was srrong. Happened to be reading previous schh posts and came across the issues you were having which if anything is the opposite of your implication. Never really questioned your handling, ill assume its fair to good if you have put an ipo 3 on a dog...which really has no impact on the topic at hand or the previous one either.
> 
> Fyi I may be newer to sch but i have actually done patrol work with a K9 in places you would never be caught dead in with nothing but a dog...your probably a better sport handler then I. We will see though when my pup gets where she is going.. Which doesnt change that i know what I like in a dog and what I see with the current situation. Weak dogs everywhere being given passes and having excuses made for them by handlers, judges, and breeders. I know what others i spend time with more experienced then you or I tell me too. Im not saying anything ground breaking here am I? Thought i was just stating the obvious..but ofcourse people get their feelings hurt. Gotta watch out for those feelings.


Whatever you say


----------



## kjdreyer

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, it is possible to ruin a good dog with bad training. So the now ruined dog shouldn't be bred as it's bad training has now created character flaws in the dog that can be passed down to the puppies. Something people often don't think about.
> 
> Wait, are you saying acquired (or trained) flaws can be genetically transferred to further generations? I don't understand that, because I thought genetics were genetics, and you couldn't do anything to alter inherited characteristics, other than manage and train to at best keep them under control. The scenario I'm thinking of is a steady-nerved dog being too harshly corrected by a novice handler, and now bites the handler. Will that aggression now be an issue for future litters?
> I'm confused please clarify, if possible. And just asking questions, no breeding in my future. Thanks!


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## Merciel

RocketDog said:


> I know everyone is all about going out and seeing the dogs, and those who don't are considered lazy, but for some of us, it's at least a 6 hour drive to any decent venue or competition.


I know, and I agree with you. And people are busy, too!

When I go out to dog events, I always try to make a note of which dogs really impress me. If they're GSDs, I'll post about it in my recap thread so that on the off chance that somebody happens to open that thread (which, I realize, is unlikely) or (more likely) searches the breeder's name on this forum, the result may benefit someone else.

But nobody keeps up with all the threads and so I am not sure that it's actually useful. I'll keep doing it, though, because what's the harm? And maybe if other people did it too, that would increase the usefulness.

Of course, you'd still have to know something about the biases and experience of the person making the report (what I see/like may not be exactly the same things someone like Myco would see/like), but you have to do the same thing for recommendations you get from friends in real life, so that isn't a huge problem.


----------



## Liesje

kjdreyer said:


> mycobraracr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is possible to ruin a good dog with bad training. So the now ruined dog shouldn't be bred as it's bad training has now created character flaws in the dog that can be passed down to the puppies. Something people often don't think about.
> 
> Wait, are you saying acquired (or trained) flaws can be genetically transferred to further generations? I don't understand that, because I thought genetics were genetics, and you couldn't do anything to alter inherited characteristics, other than manage and train to at best keep them under control. The scenario I'm thinking of is a steady-nerved dog being too harshly corrected by a novice handler, and now bites the handler. Will that aggression now be an issue for future litters?
> I'm confused please clarify, if possible. And just asking questions, no breeding in my future. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is what was meant, but consider that the dam is with the puppies for 4-6 weeks after they are born. Whether the dog is genetically bad-tempered or has been conditioned that way, you don't want poor temperament, nerves, stress, etc around those puppies at such a critical period.
Click to expand...


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## Merciel

It's also been well documented that exposing a pregnant dog to severe stress while she's carrying puppies can have a negative impact on their future development, both physically and mentally.

I don't know if that's what he meant either, but it's a known issue. However, _moderate_ stress is believed to have beneficial impacts. Very tricky!


----------



## onyx'girl

When you train out a certain behavior are you covering up a genetic weakness?
I know most really good breeders will not breed a dog with certain weakness or lacking certain traits, but others will possibly put on blinders and still breed the dog anyway.
This article was written on an open fb page, the naughty dogg, I'm sharing it because I think it is worth repeating:

_
I've moved from England to Canada, Gotten Married, Graduated University, Started my Own Business, Purchased a Home, and competed with many, many dogs. These have all been incredibly stressful moments in my life that pushed me outside of my comfort zone. And these have also been the moments that taught me to be strong, taught me to think through stress, and taught me to go for what I want. They have made me who I am.

Stress is a valuable part of our lives. We do not achieve anything of worth without being stressed before we achieve it. 

To deny your dog 'stress' will prevent him from growing. Stress is needed to graduate us from each stage of life as we mature. Elementary School, Junior High, High school, University, Your First Job Interview, getting married, finding out you are having a baby etc. all come with stress.

Our dogs need stress to blossom, however, not too much. Do not overwhelm your dog, or be unfair. But if you protect him from all moments of stress, you are also denying him a chance to 'grow-up' and become a man. You will keep your dog weak, and needy. 

Our dogs, like us, need to know that they overcame a problem and can then feel good about themselves for having done so. Dogs do have pride, and they know when they have accomplished something big. It might be as simple as a tiny dog leaping up onto the very-high chair with no help, or the dog scared of water braving it and retrieving his ball that fell in. 

Don't always be too quick to deny them their lessons. If the little bit of frustration and stress can be overcome, allow them to learn the lesson. And if they do need help, offer help but do not do the entire thing for them. 

I would boost the little dog up two inches, and still ask him to leap up on the chair. Or I would move the ball in the water two feet closer, and wade out with my dog to go and retrieve it. 

None of us became who we are by being spoon fed. And your dog will never reach his potential until you allow him moments to show you how clever he is. 

Monique Anstee
Victoria, BC_
Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee | Dog Training and Dog Obedience Victoria BC


----------



## mycobraracr

kjdreyer said:


> mycobraracr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is possible to ruin a good dog with bad training. So the now ruined dog shouldn't be bred as it's bad training has now created character flaws in the dog that can be passed down to the puppies. Something people often don't think about.
> 
> Wait, are you saying acquired (or trained) flaws can be genetically transferred to further generations? I don't understand that, because I thought genetics were genetics, and you couldn't do anything to alter inherited characteristics, other than manage and train to at best keep them under control. The scenario I'm thinking of is a steady-nerved dog being too harshly corrected by a novice handler, and now bites the handler. Will that aggression now be an issue for future litters?
> I'm confused please clarify, if possible. And just asking questions, no breeding in my future. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Short answer, yes, that's what I'm saying. If genetics was it, then we would never actually have to work our dogs. All we have to do is look at pedigrees. Unfortunately pedigrees are a part of the equation. But, look at pedigrees. Some dogs are known for "handler aggression". If how we raise and train our dogs have no effect, then how did the first dog that showed handler aggression come up?
> 
> Here is my example. A female has bad training. She now has a distrust of...men. Now this dog is bred. "Genetically" she is sound with a nice pedigree. Now puppies are born. The first eight weeks of their life the mother is imprinting them. Now all they see is every time a human male approaches her, she cowers, hides, tenses up and so on. Now these puppies are starting life thinking men are evil. Can socialization and training help overcome this? Perhaps but this is now ingrained in the puppies. I didn't really believe this either. Then I saw it first hand. Now you will never convince me otherwise. My argument would be, "There are many great dogs out there, so why take the chance on a less than stellar one? Caused by training or not."
Click to expand...


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## mycobraracr

Liesje said:


> I don't know if this is what was meant, but consider that the dam is with the puppies for 4-6 weeks after they are born. Whether the dog is genetically bad-tempered or has been conditioned that way, you don't want poor temperament, nerves, stress, etc around those puppies at such a critical period.


 
EXACTLY! Thanks!


----------



## kjdreyer

OK, thanks for replies, that's interesting and makes sense, since puppies are learning how to view the world from the dam, through her filters. If the sire was the one with the handler aggression, or fear of men, that he had acquired through mistreatment, would there be a chance of passing that to future generations? Or would nurture trump genetics? This stuff is fascinating, sorry, I'm hijacking the thread. But that thread was pretty depressing, anyways! Thanks for the info, much appreciated!


----------



## Freestep

gsdsar said:


> Too many GSD, over analyze. It slows them down. When they slow down to think about footing, they go out if drive. They go out if drive, they stop caring about the reward.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I've never done SAR, but having watched different kinds of dogs negotiate terrain just while out hiking, it's apparent that they have different strategies for dealing with difficult footing. I have seen my GSD take a moment to consider how to best go about it, while my friend's super-confident Pit Bull simply mows through without consideration, and the Rott/Pit Bull x refuses to follow us over steep or tough footing at all, and will stand there whining piteously until we "rescue" her. 



> A GSD that certifies in USAR, is breed worthy. No doubt in my mind. I have seen highly driven, SchH titled dogs shut down on the rubble. It's intense. It needs a special dog.


I hear that and I agree with you.



mycobraracr said:


> Yes, it is possible to ruin a good dog with bad training. So the now ruined dog shouldn't be bred as it's bad training has now created character flaws in the dog that can be passed down to the puppies. Something people often don't think about.


Unless you're talking about epigenetics, bad training does not affect a dog's genes.


----------



## Liesje

kjdreyer said:


> OK, thanks for replies, that's interesting and makes sense, since puppies are learning how to view the world from the dam, through her filters. If the sire was the one with the handler aggression, or fear of men, that he had acquired through mistreatment, would there be a chance of passing that to future generations? Or would nurture trump genetics? This stuff is fascinating, sorry, I'm hijacking the thread. But that thread was pretty depressing, anyways! Thanks for the info, much appreciated!


Nature and nurture. Really, the temperament is set by genetics, but most people see it as the dog's genetics creating a sort of spectrum, if you will. Nature, or how the dog is raised and trained, will ultimately decide where on that genetically determined spectrum the dog will fall. That's why my dog acts differently than his littermates. If you had raised him, he'd probably act differently, but the genetics haven't changed. I think depending on the lines, some aspects of temperament can be more "set", less room for nurture to have an impact, but that really depends on the exact dogs we're talking about. Some dogs or combinations of lines are known to really "stamp" their temperament while other dogs will produce huge variety in temperament and soundness.

I honestly don't know how much the mother can imprint on the puppies as far as them observing her reactions and the effects on the puppies' temperaments, but I would guess that a nervy, stressed dog could have physical implications, like just not taking good care of the puppies or not being in the best health herself. It's not just their temperament at stake but their health and survival. Some bitches might be amazing in training and earn High SchH3 on the field but be terrible mothers. I've often been told that some of the best producing bitches were *not* podium dogs in SchH or really top at anything, other than being great mothers and producing great dogs. Some bitches grow up showing no sign of temperament problem or weakness and then after they whelp they randomly kill their entire litter. Other bitches may not even have a title but give birth to and raise a large litter.


----------



## mycobraracr

Freestep said:


> Unless you're talking about epigenetics, bad training does not affect a dog's genes.


 
I had never heard that term before so I just had to do a quick cram session. To paraphrase what I read, things such as environment, stress and diet can change your genetic make-up. Not so much the DNA but it causes a chemical change to how that DNA is used. If that's accurate, then I don't see how bad training and how a dog is raised couldn't cause an effect. Everything I read also said that these changes can be passed on to progeny. That makes sense if they are changing what parts of your DNA are being emphasized and what parts are being dormant. 

Here is an interesting dumbed down youtube video I watched discussing it. Epigenetics - YouTube


----------



## kjdreyer

Oh my goodness, Liesje, so dog mothers have to choose between careers and motherhood too?! While the sire just shows up for the fun part! Please don't think I'm mocking your response, again, I find this fascinating, and really value reading what experienced dog people know. Thanks for response! But I never thought about the parallels to human genetics and the nature/nurture debate existing in breeding as well.
BTW, who is that new pup in your Avatar? Very Cute


----------



## mycobraracr

Oh and so in short, yes epigenetics is a much better explanation for what I'm talking about.


----------



## Liesje

kjdreyer said:


> Oh my goodness, so dog mothers have to choose between careers and motherhood too?! While the sire just shows up for the fun part! Please don't think I'm mocking your response, again, I find this fascinating, and really value reading what experienced dog people know. Thanks for response! But I never thought about the parallels to human genetics and the nature/nurture debate existing in breeding as well.


LOL many times yes! Regardless of whether she's a good brood bitch, she still has to take time off training and trialing for pregnancy and through weaning.


----------



## onyx'girl

look at the silver fox experiment....Evolution in Action: The Silver Fox Experiment - Vidéo Dailymotion


----------



## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> Nature and nurture. Really, the temperament is set by genetics, but most people see it as the dog's genetics creating a sort of spectrum, if you will. Nature, or how the dog is raised and trained, will ultimately decide where on that genetically determined spectrum the dog will fall. That's why my dog acts differently than his littermates. If you had raised him, he'd probably act differently, but the genetics haven't changed. I think depending on the lines, some aspects of temperament can be more "set", less room for nurture to have an impact, but that really depends on the exact dogs we're talking about. Some dogs or combinations of lines are known to really "stamp" their temperament while other dogs will produce huge variety in temperament and soundness.
> 
> I honestly don't know how much the mother can imprint on the puppies as far as them observing her reactions and the effects on the puppies' temperaments, but I would guess that a nervy, stressed dog could have physical implications, like just not taking good care of the puppies or not being in the best health herself. It's not just their temperament at stake but their health and survival. Some bitches might be amazing in training and earn High SchH3 on the field but be terrible mothers. I've often been told that some of the best producing bitches were *not* podium dogs in SchH or really top at anything, other than being great mothers and producing great dogs. Some bitches grow up showing no sign of temperament problem or weakness and then after they whelp they randomly kill their entire litter. Other bitches may not even have a title but give birth to and raise a large litter.



My breeder once mentioned to me that exact thing. He had a bitch that was excellent on the SchH field, excellent all around, but a terrible mother. After the second breeding (he gave her a break on the first one, thinking it might be just first-time lack of experience) he quit breeding her. 


Regarding Jane's article, which I really liked:

He (my breeder) also told me long ago when my dog was a pup that I needed to let him stress out a bit and learn he can work through that stress. From the beginning, I let him do that. The first day he came home, at 9 1/2 weeks, I encouraged him at the bottom of the full flight of deck stairs. He whined a bit, I just spoke happily to him, went up a couple of steps, and after a few paws he jumped up and went up. I didn't let him go up all the way, but I then practiced the down. Within less than 2 days he was going up and down all by himself. And so on it went. Same this summer when he had to swim across a very fast moving high alpine mountain river, that was almost waist high on me.


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## Freestep

mycobraracr said:


> I don't see how bad training and how a dog is raised couldn't cause an effect. Everything I read also said that these changes can be passed on to progeny.


Epigenetics doesn't affect DNA, and it doesn't appear to affect all genes. There are a few genes that have been studied; environmental factors such as diet, stress, exposure to chemicals, etc can turn them "on" or "off". So while bad training can't be passed down to offspring, the genes that are switched on or off can be.

Hope that makes some kind of sense!


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## kjdreyer

That silver fox video is amazing, and it has interesting ties to the initial theme of this post. I remember reading something about epigenetics being a possible cause of the prevalence of diabetes in Native Americans. I never thought about it relating to dog breeding. I bet long ago, and today as well, this was all known by the good breeders on an intuitive level. OK, I'm gonna have to call in sick tomorrow so I can continue to research all of this!


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## alexg

capone22 said:


> because that is part of a german shepherd. If you want a dog that can't do schutzhund pick a different breed. German shepherds that can't hack schutzhund shouldn't be bred.
> 
> Imo there shouldn't be show line vs. Working line. There is one german shepherd. Which is a working dog. With a purpose. If that working dog also happens to be good for the showing, sure show it. But first and foremost it should be able to work. Not the other way around.
> sent from petguide.com free app


+100!


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## mycobraracr

Freestep said:


> Epigenetics doesn't affect DNA, and it doesn't appear to affect all genes. There are a few genes that have been studied; environmental factors such as diet, stress, exposure to chemicals, etc can turn them "on" or "off". So while bad training can't be passed down to offspring, the genes that are switched on or off can be.
> 
> Hope that makes some kind of sense!


 
Yes, makes sense.

Isn't that saying that in essence, the effects of bad training can be passed down?


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## Nirvaana

LifeofRiley said:


> I think that the existence of multiple lines within any given breed is symptomatic of disputes within the breed fancy world as to the proper direction of the breed. Disputes of this type tend to have polarizing effects where no one side is willing to to take the first step toward compromise.
> 
> Based on a little bit of research, it appears that the split between working and show lines started in the late 60s/early 70s but only reached a point where it would resemble what we see today in the mid/late 80s and early 90s. (Please do correct me if I am wrong on the timeline)
> 
> So, as this seems to be a relatively recent development in the breed, I can understand why those people who have been involved in the breed for a very long time would be very passionate about the topic.
> 
> What I don’t understand is why more people aren’t talking about ways to re-unite the lines. It seems to me - as just an observer - that this would be the healthiest path forward for the breed. Is it simply impossible? Is it a bad idea?
> 
> Again, as a complete outsider, it would seem to me that the presence of distinct lines has the potential to lead to further sub-specialization. And that, at least from a genetic diversity standpoint, doesn’t seem wise.
> 
> P.S. I thought the posts about SAR dogs on this thread were really interesting - thanks gsdsar and Catu!


If you are to consider the pronounced angulation of the back as an early indicator of "development of show line" mentality, you can see some really pronounced angulation start out in dogs in the late 1910's ]. Those ofcourse were still straight backs, just angled. Once you start looking at 1930s studs, you can see the "curvature" in the angulated backs. By 40s and 50s, it seems that the SL prototype roachbacks were put in place completely. Just my observations based on pure physicalities, not training or titling.


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## RocketDog

alexg said:


> +100!


Yup.


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## Konotashi

Nirvaana said:


> By 40s and 50s, it seems that the SL prototype roachbacks were put in place completely. Just my observations based on pure physicalities, not training or titling.


I presume you mean 'sloped' and not roached. True roaches are VERY undesirable in the show ring. 

People throw around that term way too often. 
/endrant


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## GSDElsa

marbury said:


> So attack me, sure. Go for it. Make yourself feel better, and I'll be over here learning. If you want to keep this up, take it to PMs or a mod will likely be by and give us both a talking to. I'm always game to play!


lol. No, I think I said it clearly enough.


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## holland

Is this thread interesting-or there is nothing else to talk about-just wondering


----------



## lhczth

marbury said:


> I guess our clinic just sees a lot of "Super Extra Ultra High Drive" GSDs, they're the ones I'm talking about. Because these are dogs that are SO anxious and SO self-destructive in the kennel that they have to be drugged, cannot have water bowls because they destroy them, and beat you up with enthusiastic greeting when you go to let them out. That's the high drive I'm talking about. They are dreadful to work with and if that is coupled with nerves or aggression... I can't imagine any of them living happily in most homes. They do not represent any form of balance.



This is not high drive. You are describing dogs that lack nerve. Neurotic over active dogs that can't not settle, need to be drugged and are dreadful to work are not what Catu is talking about.


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## Chip Blasiole

IMO, the breed is one of the protection breeds and its primary work should be in police and military applications. I also believe you cannot tell much at all about a dog by watching a video. You have to work a dog as a decoy and test it in a variety of stressful situations that go beyong sport and you have to be fortunate to work at least one exceptional dog to see what the breed can be.


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## marbury

lhczth said:


> This is not high drive. You are describing dogs that lack nerve. Neurotic over active dogs that can't not settle, need to be drugged and are dreadful to work are not what Catu is talking about.


That's been covered already if you read back. I get it.

Big thank you to the folks who sent me lots of good info via PM! I appreciate the education.


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## Freestep

mycobraracr said:


> Isn't that saying that in essence, the effects of bad training can be passed down?


No. Bad training doesn't affect DNA. It's not even known whether bad training can affect the dog's epigenetics. They've only studied its effects in a few select genes in humans, mostly having to do with disease like Alzheimer's and certain cancers. More studies need to be done for sure. But if you had a dog with fantastic genetics, clear for disease and excellent in temperament but badly trained, I wouldn't see a problem with breeding him. His bad training won't affect his offspring.


----------



## mycobraracr

Freestep said:


> No. Bad training doesn't affect DNA. It's not even known whether bad training can affect the dog's epigenetics. They've only studied its effects in a few select genes in humans, mostly having to do with disease like Alzheimer's and certain cancers. More studies need to be done for sure. But if you had a dog with fantastic genetics, clear for disease and excellent in temperament but badly trained, I wouldn't see a problem with breeding him. His bad training won't affect his offspring.


 
I should clarify, that when I say bad training, I'm not talking about a crooked sit. I mean like a dog taught to bite by forcing into a corner or beaten to bite turning into a fearful, skittish mess (just one example). Again I don't know what to call it or if there is even a term for it. All I know is I have seen it.


----------



## Freestep

mycobraracr said:


> I should clarify, that when I say bad training, I'm not talking about a crooked sit. I mean like a dog taught to bite by forcing into a corner or beaten to bite turning into a fearful, skittish mess (just one example). Again I don't know what to call it or if there is even a term for it. All I know is I have seen it.


If the dog is a skittish, fearful mess, you could argue that the dog's genetics code for a skittish, fearful mess, and that the bad training/abuse simply brought it to the fore. It is difficult to ruin genetically sound temperament, and such a dog can often be rehabilitated. 

Take a dog with sound temperament and beat him until he's afraid of you. That dog's genetics are still sound, even though his disposition toward humans appears fearful. His abuse can't reach back and change his DNA. The stress may or may not switch certain genes on/off, but it can't add or subract genes. 

Now, if it's a female that has received bad training and is made fearful, she could imprint that behavior on her pups. So in that sense, abuse can affect the next generation.


----------



## mycobraracr

Freestep said:


> If the dog is a skittish, fearful mess, you could argue that the dog's genetics code for a skittish, fearful mess, and that the bad training/abuse simply brought it to the fore. It is difficult to ruin genetically sound temperament, and such a dog can often be rehabilitated.
> 
> Take a dog with sound temperament and beat him until he's afraid of you. That dog's genetics are still sound, even though his disposition toward humans appears fearful. His abuse can't reach back and change his DNA. The stress may or may not switch certain genes on/off, but it can't add or subract genes.
> 
> Now, if it's a female that has received bad training and is made fearful, she could imprint that behavior on her pups. So in that sense, abuse can affect the next generation.





Every dog has a breaking point. If a dog is pushed to a point that it can turn specific genes on/off then doesn't that effect how those genes are transferred to the progeny? 

We should get together some day for coffee and discuss this more as I'm interested. At this point I don't think we will be able to change each others mind. So now we will just have to resort to name calling and hate mail 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## GSDElsa

Rrr...genes don't get turned "on or off"because of bad training. ..


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## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Wow, this thing is still going. 

I still think it's too big now to really do anything about it other than change who ever makes decisions on what acceptable breed standards are in those arena's. I just don't thini there is a silver bullet answer. To me, all a breeder can do is protect thier little part of the breeding standard world. 

There is always starting your own sanctioning body also. This would help in having the breed standard protected by people who want the original standard. But it would take someone with some money and alot of expertise in breeding standards. 

I watched the video ,and while I really am not experienced in this area of judging whats acceptable and whats not, I could even see those dogs were different from others I've seen that were more intense and less timid. Those dogs seemed to not want to do anything unless directed. An at that when they were, they did it in a somewhat playful half hearted manner. I'm not familiar with what competition venue this video was taken at either. From what was said on the other thread, this was a venue to exibit the standard in the working class? These were the top of the line IPO dogs?


----------



## Freestep

mycobraracr said:


> Every dog has a breaking point. If a dog is pushed to a point that it can turn specific genes on/off then doesn't that effect how those genes are transferred to the progeny?
> 
> We should get together some day for coffee and discuss this more as I'm interested. At this point I don't think we will be able to change each others mind. So now we will just have to resort to name calling and hate mail


Haha, do yourself a favor and have coffee with an actual expert in genetics/epigenetics, rather than taking my word for it! I just heard an interesting spot on NPR's Science Friday, and read up a little bit as I found it fascinating.

As far as I know, there haven't been any studies specifically related to epigenetics as it effects dog breeding. I'm just speculating based on the human/animal studies that were done and the little I do know about genetics. The important thing to know is that you can't change DNA through training, whether good or bad.


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## DaniFani

Well, I know I'm a little late to the dance. But, just wanted to say. I personally never plan on breeding. Nor do I ever plan on getting involved in showing dogs. Some people have said, "why don't some of the complainers DO something instead of just talking the talk, walk the walk."

Well, all I can do is add what I am doing to help the breed stay "great." After getting involved in SchH, this forum, and meeting some top-line-working-dog handlers/breeders, I vow to never contribute to BYBs or puppy mill breeders. I will only put my money into breeders who are striving for the best of the best, are out working their dogs themselves, and have proven their knowledge and experience through titles, certifications, progeny with titles/certs and progeny out working in the world. I will never contribute money, time, or energy to someone who had an "oops" litter, who had a litter to "experience the gift of life," or any other ridiculous reason to put two dogs together. I also will try and educate whenever I can, politely and honestly....only if the other person is interested or makes comments suggesting interest. For example, "love your GSD, where did you get him? Would you consider breeding him?" I would explain where I got him, why I would never do it again, and why I would never breed him...again, politely and honestly.

Also, I think this forum is doing a lot as far as helping the breed. I have learned so much about lines, expectations, bybs, working dogs, sport dogs, etc....yeah, some people have extreme opinions, but it's made me think about things I want in a dog that I may not have thought of before. Anywhoooo, have a great week everyone!


----------



## Castlemaid

DaniFani said:


> Well, I know I'm a little late to the dance. But, just wanted to say. I personally never plan on breeding. Nor do I ever plan on getting involved in showing dogs. Some people have said, "why don't some of the complainers DO something instead of just talking the talk, walk the walk."
> 
> Well, all I can do is add what I am doing to help the breed stay "great." After getting involved in SchH, this forum, and meeting some top-line-working-dog handlers/breeders, I vow to never contribute to BYBs or puppy mill breeders. I will only put my money into breeders who are striving for the best of the best, are out working their dogs themselves, and have proven their knowledge and experience through titles, certifications, progeny with titles/certs and progeny out working in the world. I will never contribute money, time, or energy to someone who had an "oops" litter, who had a litter to "experience the gift of life," or any other ridiculous reason to put two dogs together. I also will try and educate whenever I can, politely and honestly....only if the other person is interested or makes comments suggesting interest. For example, "love your GSD, where did you get him? Would you consider breeding him?" I would explain where I got him, why I would never do it again, and why I would never breed him...again, politely and honestly.
> 
> Also, I think this forum is doing a lot as far as helping the breed. I have learned so much about lines, expectations, bybs, working dogs, sport dogs, etc....yeah, some people have extreme opinions, but it's made me think about things I want in a dog that I may not have thought of before. Anywhoooo, have a great week everyone!


YEAH DaniFani!!! :wub: :thumbup:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

double yeah danifan )))


----------



## mtmarabianz

That means my BYB, puppy milll dog (from amish breeding, altho mom only had two litters - 4 yrs apart)
& the female was a house dog, & the male was a working farm dog
Fanto on moms side, working west german on male, sable is my pups color

who I was too asamed to take to a club, cuz she wasn't the flavor of the week,

but I took the dog I had (Nothing) & trained to a PP dog (used for the experience, so I would be a a better trainer with the next dog)
Everything I did/do = she already knew
NO nerve issue
NO heath issue

Guess I Just got Lucky for $375 = & She's 5 yrs old, still waiting, but raw feed for that reason

Hugs GSD Experts

Dosn't fit in this conversation

Meant to say, as well as the above

Of course = She is out of Standard = runt of the litter, size of a male = 26' at shoulder, 90+ #'s lean, **** those BYB dogs, am lines = WTFE
She trained as a champ = Solid Nerves, Friendly to all till 9 mo Old = THAT IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE WITH A GSD
NO issues period


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## mtmarabianz

PS = Now my dog (Bitch) slings snot = funny when they are raised rite how they know their job = originator of the breed


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## DaniFani

mtmarabianz said:


> PS = Now my dog (Bitch) *slings snot* = funny when they are raised rite how they know their job = originator of the breed


huh?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Wow still going?

I posted this earlier in the thread too....good outcome IMHO


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/finding-right-puppy/325945-new-puppy-3-missing-toe-nails.html

Most people aren't really that interested in the nuances of GSD lines. Just talked with a lady about this in Tractor Supply the other day. She 'just want's a German Shepherd'. I don't think I could've talked her into getting a lab or aussie, but I can warn her about puppy mills, health testing and pet stores and such. 

For the true GSD enthusiasts, they know how to research and find what they want.


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## Sunflowers




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## onyx'girl

Cliff hasn't logged on since he posted the opening for all this discussion. I hope he returns someday.


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## Jax08

onyx'girl said:


> Cliff hasn't logged on since he posted the opening for all this discussion. I hope he returns someday.


Maybe that was his "goodbye" post?


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## MadLab

Yea all of 3-4 days ago. I suppose that's an eternity in internet time


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## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I think alot of people in the market for a GSD probably do not even realise there are several types of GSD lines. All they know is they seen one on Cop's K-9 addition and figure thiers will grow into one like that with alittle training. They see whats put in front of them the most. The small whimpering of purist breeders are just a bother of snobby people with more money than brains because in thier mind, who would pay more than a thousand dollars for a dog?


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## onyx'girl

jafo220 said:


> I think alot of people in the market for a GSD probably do not even realise there are several types of GSD lines. All they know is they seen one on Cop's K-9 addition and figure thiers will grow into one like that with alittle training. They see whats put in front of them the most. The small whimpering of purist breeders are just a bother of snobby people with more money than brains because in thier mind, who would pay more than a thousand dollars for a dog?


So who has integrity, the purist breeder who whimpers or the one that breeds whats put in front of them?


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## MadLab

Jafo220


> The small whimpering of purist breeders are just a bother of snobby people with more money than brains because in thier mind, who would pay more than a thousand dollars for a dog?


If a dog is trained it is worth much more than that sum.

Would you pay that much? Yes if you want a trained dog.

Is a purist breeder a show breeder or a working dog breeder. Sorry you should be more clear. And I don't think anybody was whimpering but if they were please quote them.


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## holland

onyx'girl said:


> Cliff hasn't logged on since he posted the opening for all this discussion. I hope he returns someday.


Since this thread has gone on and on-the least he could do is return-Kinda hope Mrs.K isn't permenantly banned :help: too


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## onyx'girl

Mrs K is gone for good....


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## MadLab

That's bad for the forum. Can a mod simple ban someone for no reason? I checked her posts and she was not in the slightest abusive. Are people getting banned for expressing their honest opinions?


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## onyx'girl

Re-read Cliffs opening post... 

_I honestly feel that the integrity of the breed has been compromised almost completely, whether it is consumers, breeders, Judges, or forums. *Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings*. Discussions that could be helpful are *clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. *It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!_


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## MadLab

Yea still I reckon he'll be back. 

People upstairs should be thinking a bit more before getting rid of people with so many posts. They are why this forum is so good. Pretty easy to jump ship and find a new forum.

It was a tragedy when X11 was banned 

Seriously though it was. He had personality


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## onyx'girl

I agree, though I think he makes his way thru many forums and the door locks on him often.


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## MadLab

I checked the rules and can't see why Mrs K was banned though

9000 posts is a lot to throw away imo

Did anyone every get banned for not agreeing with schutzhund training methods.... I think not. But say something about show lines and your in trouble. Doesn't make sense.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I was wondering about that. I was hoping it was temporary....








onyx'girl said:


> Mrs K is gone for good....


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## Freestep

MadLab said:


> That's bad for the forum. Can a mod simple ban someone for no reason? I checked her posts and she was not in the slightest abusive. Are people getting banned for expressing their honest opinions?


She was banned because she said "Ban me if you want"... and then made a cynical inside joke about "bashing show lines". But she wasn't really bashing show lines, she was bashing a system rife with corruption. No matter, they banned her anyway.  Her posts were upsetting to some, but I thought a ban was overreaching. Unless I missed something.


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## MadLab

> She was banned because she said "Ban me if you want"


Still, that is not breaking the rules.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings. Discussions that could be helpful are clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. It is apparent to me that the tide has swung to this breed becoming a pet dog except in exclusive circles. I cannot in good conscience be a part of this.......so very very sad!
__________________

What ?? When did this happen ? 

I get in trouble all the time for having an opinion based on facts, not on something I read on the internet.


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## TrickyShepherd

Freestep said:


> She was banned because she said "Ban me if you want"... and then made a cynical inside joke about "bashing show lines". But she wasn't really bashing show lines, she was bashing a system rife with corruption. No matter, they banned her anyway.  Her posts were upsetting to some, but I thought a ban was overreaching. *Unless I missed something.*


If you did, then I must have too. I was a bit shocked at the opening post on the thread, but after reading a bit realized what she was trying to say.... None of which I could really disagree with. Bad way to maybe say it at first to a whole forum full of different types of people and backgrounds: well.. yeah, I would say so. But, I didn't find it offensive once I understood what was being discussed (or trying to be). It's sad that we lose so many members due to this or just because they bring up good, logical topics that get everyone in a tizzy and off on tangents. It's the snowball effect.... neutral threads can turn ugly in just minutes, then just goes down from there.


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## Whiteshepherds

onyx'girl said:


> Re-read Cliffs opening post...
> _*Intelligent discourse cannot occurr because truth is held hostage to feelings*. Discussions that could be helpful are *clouded by feelings which do not allow real education to take place. *_


To allow real education to take place it always helps to know who's doing the educating.  I always like Cliff's posts but have to be truthful, for a long time I had no idea who he was or what kind of dogs he had. Didn't even know he was a breeder. I don't think people need to be GSD experts to carry on an intelligent conversation (or debate) but sometimes it helps to know their frame of reference.


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## lalachka

^^ to TrickyShepherd's post. 

Me too. I was a little harsh in that thread but I do think that when you start a conversation that way you're putting people on the defensive. For example, I didn't have that reaction to what Cliff had to say. 

I do agree with the subject, the breed has so many problems, I don't know whose fault it is but i also don't think it's right to say that it's so bad because it became a pet breed (using pet in an offensive way). 
Also, if it wasn't for pet homes there would be no breed as we know it, for better or for worse. 

Anyway, I regret being mean in that thread but I think it was expected that people would react that way when they're being attacked for what they like. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, she was more angry with her fellow countrymen then anything else and Germans aren't known for their way of 'sugar coating' things too much. This I know growing up first gen German American. 

I own a WGSL and what Mrs K said did not bother me personally..... :shrug: 




Freestep said:


> She was banned because she said "Ban me if you want"... and then made a cynical inside joke about "bashing show lines". But she wasn't really bashing show lines, she was bashing a system rife with corruption. No matter, they banned her anyway.  Her posts were upsetting to some, but I thought a ban was overreaching. Unless I missed something.


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## fredh

A German Shepherd makes an excellent Pet if he is well trained and gets plenty of exercise and structure. My 3 year old Jake is well socialized with other Dogs as well as 2 legged creatures. I did Puppy Obedience classes with him when he was a pup and have continued training him myself. He listens and obeys my commands. The 2 of us walk at least an hour a day a mixture of on and off leash. I can even walk him off leash through my sub division without him leaving my left side (heel). At home he is very protective but when out in public when people ask if they can pet him I always say yes and he gives them a big kiss on the hand. My Dog comes from Championship German Working Lines. He is Canadian Kennel Club Registered Re. No: XS373351 and his legal name is : STORMYMAGIC'S JAGUAR Check out his pedigree.

There is no such thing as a breed that cannot be a Pet. That is closed mined thinking. Any Dog that has an owner willing to make the commitment and spend the necessary time with his GSD will have an well behaved friend and protector.


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## Blanketback

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I own a WGSL and what Mrs K said did not bother me personally..... :shrug:


Lol, I own an ASL and nothing posted here, no matter how negative, bothers me either. Then again, I equate vitriolic with uneducated.... and it seems that usually I'm right


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## Chris Wild

Freestep said:


> She was banned because she said "Ban me if you want"... and then made a cynical inside joke about "bashing show lines". But she wasn't really bashing show lines, she was bashing a system rife with corruption. No matter, they banned her anyway.  Her posts were upsetting to some, but I thought a ban was overreaching. Unless I missed something.


You missed a lot. That is usually the case since members are not privy to the history or previous warnings, so they always just seem to assume when someone is banned that the Mods are jumping the gun or being vengeful.

In this case, she was banned because after making many insulting comments in another thread that had been closed for that very reason, she chose to start a new thread on the same topic, knowing full well that the same level of conflict would occur again and even saying so in her introduction. That alone normally would have just gotten a warning. 

However, this was not even close to her first rule violation. She had recieved multiple warnings and suspensionsin the past for repeated violations of several rules. She was not banned for this single incident, but rather it was the last straw in an ongoing pattern of behavior.

Now, get back to the topic please...

-Admin


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## DaniFani

TrickyShepherd said:


> If you did, then I must have too. I was a bit shocked at the opening post on the thread, but after reading a bit realized what she was trying to say.... None of which I could really disagree with. Bad way to maybe say it at first to a whole forum full of different types of people and backgrounds: well.. yeah, I would say so. But, I didn't find it offensive once I understood what was being discussed (or trying to be). It's sad that we lose so many members due to this or just because they bring up good, logical topics that get everyone in a tizzy and off on tangents. It's the snowball effect.... neutral threads can turn ugly in just minutes, then just goes down from there.


I don't think it was because of "one" comment. I think it had to do with several comments and she'd probably had several warnings and there was a "last straw" thing that occurred. I posted on one of her threads that maybe she should take a break because she seemed to be getting pretty upset and hostile a lot....oh well....some people don't know how to balance things very well. But I'm willing to bet it was a "long time coming" and not really a "one comment only" thing....but who knows....

Edit: Just saw Chris's post....sorry for continuing on the convo.


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## MadLab

Chris Wild 


> In this case, she was banned because after making many insulting comments in another thread that had been closed for that very reason, she chose to start a new thread on the same topic, knowing full well that the same level of conflict would occur again and even saying so in her introduction.


Was it a collective decision to ban her?

Your explanation still doesn't state that she broke any rule but rather you were fed up with her stating her opinions freely or thought her rude for bringing up an issue which means a lot to her after being warned in another thread.

The dogs and training in the video she posted were pretty bad and i don't see why people should have to conceal their opinions about them.


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## Chris Wild

Try reading the rules. Posting with the intention of inciting conflict is a violation. Now, back on topic or this thread will be closed if all that people want to discuss is someone's ban and the consequences for repeated rule violations.

-Admin


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## jafo220

onyx'girl said:


> So who has integrity, the purist breeder who whimpers or the one that breeds whats put in front of them?




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

It's not about integrity. In general it's about the bottom line and why people support BYB's and Petland over good breeders who breed top of the line GSD's. In thier mind integrity doesn't enter the decission process. The dollar bill does for lack of education. Which, using the word "whimpering" meaning good breeders are fewer than puppy millers and BYB's hence you don't hear as much out of responsible breeders accept like places like these forums. It was not meant to be an insulting comment, but around here, you have BYB's and mills out in front of good breeders. So thats what people are untroduced to as "a good breeder". Because? Good breeders seem to be content to set back and sell thier dogs and go down the road. I've yet to see many advertise localy.

I don't disagree with what cliff has wrote, he is spot on. But at some point do good breeders need to start looking inwards?


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## Andaka

I have ASL, and most of the posters here don't feel that they should be bred because I don't participate in IPO. I prefer obedience, agility, and herding. I have been successful in both conformation showing and the performance events. I have trained many dogs in one or more of these sports. Four generations worth. But since I don't do bite work I obviously am unable to properly evaluate temperment or judge whether it is suitable for breeding?

While due to health issues I am not breeding right now, I have no qualms about my ability to judge an animal.


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## JakodaCD OA

Daphne, I would have no problem getting a dog from you sight unseen)) and I'm sure there are others here that would to


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## mtmarabianz

DaniFani said:


> huh?


Didn't expect you to understand, Pet Owner?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Too bad forums without free wheeling discourse are about as fun as watching paint dry. 
You can only take so many "ears up?" or "my puppy is over protective of me how do I get him to stop being such an awesome protection dog" posts. 

Never really liked much of what Mrs K had to say but she did make some posts interesting now and again..
Agree with Jeff, agree with Cliff....sad.


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## Jaythethird

Who phoned the popo? 

Either way, I believe the problem lies within the consumer. If someone purchases a pup for 200 bucks or 2000 there's no way of the breeder telling them what to do with it. And the thought that with the world's population that things are gonna be done the right way is laughable... In the 20's... Sure... Now? Not a chance... And it's not just the gsd. It's all breeds whether bred for sport, work, confirmación, therapy, name it... It's got its problems. I kept up in this thread to hopefully learn something. And I did, a couple things. But then it got almost disgusting lol. I mean.. Seems like we all forgot that the gsd is why we are all even on the same page. We all love our dogs. All our dogs are different. We are all different. Our dogs do different things. Most likely, our dogs are good at what they do. And here is 200+ posts of nothingness lol. Crazy world we live in nowadays 


Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/02/13


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