# Need Ideas......



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

For Max. He is 10 plus, has spondylosis and has been on Rimadyl and then a combination of Rimadyl and Tramadol. 

He started to have GI problems so we stopped the Rimadyl about 6 months ago and he was fine. Now he has had diarrhea off and on with the Tramadol and I suspect it is upsetting his stomach. I have stopped it for now,as of this morning. 

He won't be able to get up for long without something. I may put him back on a low dose of Rimadyl in a few days or switch to Deramaxx. 

Any ideas for a natural pain reliever or anti inflamatory? Or something to keep the diarrhea down? 

I have never been into a lot of holostic stuff but I may need to get more into it. 

Just as additional info, he had a large fatty tumor removed off his side (groin actually) about 6 weeks ago, it was impeding his mobility. It was not cancerous. He has another that is just starting to develop on his spine that I am watching. It is not causing him any pain. He is eating well, drinking well just has diarrhea. No food change recently.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Have you tried metacam? I get a generic version from England, but it's not as harsh as rimadyl. Deramaxx is one step down then metacam is below that. 

I have duchess and oxana on a mix of metacam and tramadol. I used to have vishnu on the same thing with a mix of liquid glucosamine.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Greengemsherbals.com

Carol owns it she may be able to help you out
I have brady on herbs and he loves them 
she has all kinds of stuff


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

How low a dose of Tramadol were you giving?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

He gets 200 mg a day. He also gets glucosamine.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Deramaxx is supposed to be easier on the system than Rimadyl.

You could also try Salmon oil. It's great for joint issues. I'd start low (because of the current stool issues) and then work up to 1000 mgs per 10 pounds of body weight.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

No wonder the 50 mg does nothing for LJ!

Have you tried chiropractic? That has helped LJ.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

With spondylosis the spine fuses and I have been told no to chiropractic. We do fish oil already but not at that high a dose.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

How about acupuncture??


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have thought about that but no one around here does it. We do have a holistic vet about 40 miles away that does do chiropractic work. I heard he might start doing acupuncture but I would need to find out. Good idea, thanks!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I know you said you wanted something natural, but I've recently become a fan of this: Buprenorphine. 

It's a narcotic. But it's very easy on the stomach and GI tract (though as a narcotic it can inhibit appetite if that's an issue; that doesn't appear to be one with Max). 

The best part is that you don't have to inject it, and YOU control how much he gets, which we can't do so well with a pill. You fill the syringe up to the amount prescribed by the vet and squirt it into Max's cheek pouches. (No needles!) It's absorbed through muscus membranes. It never goes into the stomach. In fact, whatever the dog swallows is useless. It's only what is absorbed that is used. 

I've found it very useful for managing pain (I had to pull Zamboni off all of her NSAIDs all at once). I was giving it to her more at night, and she slept like a baby; not so much in the morning, enough for pain management, but not so much that she was drugged and out of it. With this, I was able to re-introduce smaller doses of Tramadol, and right now, she's just on the Tramadol alone, and that seems to be working fine. But I have the Bupe available if I need it. Since I was not giving it at the same dose all day every day, I haven't noticed ANY signs that she developed dependency, but if she needs it long term for pain management at some point, well, honestly, who cares? She's a senior with chronic pain. If she gets addicted to a low dose, she gets addicted. If that's the worst thing that needs to happen for me to maintain her excellent quality of life, so be it. 

We tend to be really hesitant to use narcotics on our dogs. But there are times when they really are the best. Your vet will have to trust you to give you 2-4 weeks of narcotics at a time. But as my internist said to me, "you seem like a responsible and reasonable person."









So, that's another option to consider. Not all dogs, like not all people, do well on narcotics, but I figured I'd toss it out there for an option. And herbal remedies have side effects as well. So they're not for every dog either. 

My holistic vet is hesitant to give seniors acupuncture because he says that seniors have limited _Qi _as it is. If we move _Qi_ to one part of the body (the spine), we're moving it from somewhere else (organs, perhaps?). I know that Zamboni felt awful after two sessions of acupuncture (with a different holistic vet). Whether you believe it's _Qi_ or simply blood flow, it makes sense. 

Try acupuncture. But if it seems like it's not working for Max, it probably isn't.


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## twonhshepherds (Feb 1, 2006)

I just started my Max on acupuncture. Our second, (but truly first informed treatment,) appt is tomorrow. He has spondylosis and degenerative disc issues. We're hoping for a good outcome. We're going to try different holistic approaches, too. The Vet I'm dealing with thinks ou diet for Max is fine...a bit of tinkering, we'll see if the acupuncture helps and then try some herbs.
Kathy, I'll let you know if we have results. The one bit of tweaking we did is change from Cosequin to Glycoflex III. Too soon to tell, but he's also on Adequan, which up until a year ago was all he needed. He IS on Prednisone and we're going to try to wean him off that


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I do like Adequan too. In fact, I did see a marked improvement after the first couple of loading doses. I'm hoping to get Zamboni back in to resume her injex asap.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

How much does the 8 week loading dose cost?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Some people are good with injecting it themselves, IM. I was not. 

Some vets will let you BYOA: http://www.entirelypets.com/adequank9.html

And then just charge for the injection, or visit or if you are lucky, nothing! 

At the time Kramer got loaded, it was about $20-25 (he was smaller than a GSD) per. It's gone up though I know...everything there has.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I bought a whole vial for $50ish. They store it there for me, so I'll have to ask how many doses that includes. I can check next time I'm there for you, probably tomorrow or Wed. (She weighed 40 lbs at the time so you'll get approx half the doses per vial?). They do the injex for free (we also do chiro and water treadmill there.)

Sub-Q injex aren't really very hard. I just let them do it since I was already there (and they do it in each hip, whereas I would have done them in the nape of the neck). Those of us who have done allergy shots (and sub-Q fluids







) do these injections. They're difficult at first (I was panicky







) because you're worried about getting a vein or something. But after a while, you realize there's almost zero chance of messing up, you calm down, so the dog calms down. You just stick in the needle, and neither of you think much of it. 

My one bit of advice is to go to a vet that *regularly* sells the injex. My regular vet doesn't, so the price for the vial would have been a lot higher. But my holistic vet is part of a rehab vet center, so they sell tons of these. Thus, quantity discount to them, lower price to me.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lori, any information you can provide would be appreciated. My vet won't let me buy it on line - they have to order it and inject it. Each injection will cost $50 plus the adequan. She's 88 lbs and the dosing is 2 mg per pound. I'm guessing the cost will be $200 a week. If it works, it will be worth it.


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## twonhshepherds (Feb 1, 2006)

My vet initially charged $27 a shot for Adequan, then the price decreased to $ 20, but now it up to about $25. Max gets a shot just about every 4 weeks.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I used to give my very old girl long gone now Adequan injections. It was great but as time went on it was less effective. I see it as a last resort. Bt MAx is getting there anyway. 

Today he had no diarrhea off tramadol for 2 doses. 

You are right narcotics scare me. I think if he can handle increasing Salmon oil and then a return to Tramadol I will do that. Our holistic vet does not do acupuncture. And I think chiro is too hard on his fusing spine. 

I hate seeing them get old.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Chama cannot handle narcotics. NSAIDs haven't worked. Salmon oil made her joints worse. 

I recently tried this stuff and it was amazing. http://www.b-naturals.com/tashas-herbspirin-4-oz-p-99

I ran out about the time all of her other problems started and have never reordered. Can't afford it now.









Right now I'm giving her the following. It keeps her very mobile, all things considered but she still does have some pain. When I had the Herbspirin I dropped the Get Up and Go. The company that sells the Herbspirin also has some excellent products for GI issues. Good luck with Max! 

1. Double dose Longevity

2. Loading Dose Cetyl M

3. a homeopathic remedy for arthritis, 3x/day

4. Get Up and Go (from onlynaturalpet.com) at night

5. 2000mg/day Ester C


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Adequan is best IM though. 

That link was 2 bottles for $92. I cannot believe how much it will cost you Joanne. 

I have never seen anything work like Metacam. That stuff was amazing in terms of how fast it worked. And I am one of the NSAID panickers. 

I really appreciated Tramadol. Nina was great on it, Kramer got loopy on it UNTIL he was in enough discomfort to need it. Then he was able to take it well. So when I gave it to him at first, when he hurt his back, it blew him away, but when he was at a point where he needed it, then he had no adverse reaction. Not sure if that's the way it is or not. 

They both got other stuff supplement wise. I liked the Synovi G3...

I also used to look at the horse section of the KV Vet catalog to see what they were using on their expensive, need a return on investment type animals then check to see if it was in a formula for dogs. That's how I started using hyaluronic acid for them. 

http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/dept.asp?dept...2E451EE455BE51D

I would also be thinking hmmm...is it the drugs causing the diarrhea or something else? Just because diarrhea makes me very nervous now. 

Have fun looking at the horse stuff-big buckets!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

When I gave Chama Tremadol last summer it didn't help and had no side effects. When I gave it last week she got nauseous and threw up.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I'll look at the buckets!! I am going to need a new one for the new house when we move anyway!

Max has been off Tramadol for 2 days. All he is getting is his fish oil at 1000mg a day. The diarrhea has stopped and he does not seem to be having any problem with pain off the Tramadol. I may just leave him alone and work on incresing the fish oil some and see what happens for a few days. 

I lost a GSD to hemangiosarcoma many years ago and I am always so afraid of it. Everytime I see an older dog start to have problems I get the panic. Max is pretty healthy and mobile and is bright eyed today. He wanted to play fetch this morning. I expect he will see 13.

I also like Adequan and have never used Metacam but it is certainly one to file away for the future if it is milder than Rimadyl. 
I have never been one to shy away from NSAID's. I figure if they give the dog a few more years of quality time that it is worth the risk. That said, every dog I have had on Rimadyl has had an issue eventually with it when they have been on it long term, greater than 4 years. I still don't have a problem with it tho as I know those years were better for the dog than it would have been without it.

Max spent almost 4 1/2 years on Rimadyl before having a problem with it so now we need to manage him differently. I also think as the spine continues to fuse his pain level is actually less and he may not need anything right now.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI have never been into a lot of holostic stuff but I may need to get more into it.


Unfortunately, it works better when it's started sooner. It really should be tried first and used until meds are needed. 

The whole idea with the holistic approach is to not treat the symptom (the pain), but when it first appears, try to treat the cause of the symptom, and hopefully prevent it from developing further. When you use many of the products in a more allopathic way, you do not get their full effect. You should see some effect though.

BowWowMeow had a good 5 point list above to start with.

I still think that they should be tried, and a good combination should help to some degree.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I use supplements for support while using herbs and homeopathy to treat specific conditions as they develop. 

I have carefully added and subtracted things for Chama. I started with supplements and then added herbs (Get Up and Go). Last summer her arthritis was really bothering her so I tried Tremadol and Deramaxx together. They didn't help at all. Then I started Cetyl-M and that made all of the difference in the world. 

Recently she got a little worse so I added the homeopathic remedy. 

I was really impressed with that Herbspirin stuff I listed in a link above and I would recommend that as a starting place along with a couple of joint supplements and Ester C. 

This stuff seems to be clearing up Chama's intestinal problems and giving her extra energy: http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-immune-blend1-lb-p-17

You can buy the Herbspirin from there too. 

Do you have a good holistic vet in your area? If you're not comfortable figuring stuff out on your own, you should work with a vet. You can also do on-line consults with holistic vets. Doing that saved Cleo's life 6 years ago! I am able to bounce things off people on this board, a few friends and my vet. He tends to ask me for more advice in this area though than vise-versa.


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