# training (ecollar vs pet smart)



## edgar (Aug 12, 2012)

Any experiences with Pet Smart puppy obedience training? Is it worth it?

Also came across a good trainer with good references but she trains with ecollars.  Any experiences with the ecollar?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

This training is for a puppy? I would absolutely not use an ecollar on a puppy. Granted, I am anti e-collar in almost all situations, but a puppy should be taught with some sort of positive reinforcement (I used treats and praise, but some people and/or their dogs prefer only praise or toys).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

edgar said:


> Any experiences with Pet Smart puppy obedience training? Is it worth it?
> 
> Also came across a good trainer with good references but she trains with ecollars. Any experiences with the ecollar?


How can you be a good trainer is you use E collars  (unless for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life).


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## Silver Black sable (Aug 29, 2012)

there is no way id train any dog with a collar like that: positive reinforcement, treats, toys and sometimes punishment it all works great for my GSD


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

Bird dog trainers have been using electric collars for decades in training and I've seen how effective it is, but I don't feel like it's the best way to train a GSD, just from what I've learned about their personalities over the last few months. E-collars have made a lot of advancements in the last decade or so and are not like the old collars that pretty much just had a severe shock setting. My dad always trained his English Setters with e-collars.

I've felt an e-collar on the first and second settings (all collars don't have the same intensity) and couldn't feel anything at all on the first setting. I was on my hands and knees so as to be grounded like a dog and I have a pretty intense fear of being shocked, but I felt nothing at all. They're supposed to be used as pressure not punishment, and are more gentle than something like a prong collar when on the lowest settings. 

It's not something I would choose for my dog and definitely not a puppy, but I have seen some very nice results from using them. Honestly, for most dogs, I can't see much reason for one unless you absolutely can't train a solid recall from a long distance and it's something you require from your dog. 

It's hard not to have a negative reaction to them, even when seeing how the dog acts and knowing what they're feeling. It would be a last resort for me, even though I know it's not cruel or painful when used properly.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> How can you be a good trainer is you use E collars  (unless for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life).


Lots of very good trainers use ecollars and many of us on here use them. I use them. They are just a tool and can be very effective when used correctly and not just for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life.

I do not use them or a prong collar on puppies under 6 months of age.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

My GSD is way to sensitive while on an E-collar. I quit using it also because I didn't use it correctly and I didn't have a trainer to show me. But it worked wonders on my husky. Have you ever seen a husky off lead? I could trust mine completely on an E-collar regardless of the fact that I used it incorrectly. I don't use it on my husky any more either though. It's just not worth it without a trainer. But since you have a trainer who knows how to use it, you are definitely not in the same situation as me!

Petsmart training is eh. I've done it twice (once with my GSD as a puppy and once with my husky at just shy of a year old (not sure how old he is). My trainer didn't really have us socialize with other dogs which to me was a big bummer (I personally think it was because of Smokey being a bit reactive but she didn't do it with Zeeva either so I think it was just her style). But it was nice to have other pups in close proximity as a distraction while working on OB training with you pup. Here are the basics of the training we learned in both sessions:
How to place your dog in a sit
How to place your dog in a down
When to click, reward or add a verbal/hand command
Leave it (did wonderfully with this)
Drop it (still iffy about this)
One day of loose leash walking tips
One day of practicing recall (first down the aisle then around the corner)
One wonderful day of adding obstacles like hoops, jump bars and tunnels (this was done on the last day to encourage you to join the second round of OB training) 

That's all I recall. I'm sure there was other stuff. I hope this helps you decide what you want to do though


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have never used an ecollar and probably never will. I went with the positive training with treats and rewards, it worked wonderfully on both of my dogs(two different breeds) As far as Petsmart goes, check out the trainer because they are all different. From what I gather from here the trainer I had at Petsmart went above and beyond what most trainers at Petsmart do. She also trains at a local dog club. In three classes my dog learned...sit, down, watch me, leave it, loose leash walking, heel, front, around, side, wait, sit/stays for a minute and a half, down/stays for 3 minutes, touch, walking past other dogs and ignoring them, walking past people and ignoring them, back, park it, getting pet by a stranger, staying with a stranger(for brief amount of times), sitting with distraction(a person running by, a chair being dropped, etc), stand, stand/stay, and for agility she had the tire, a jump, and the tunnel...the dogs got to do this small course twice at the end of class(the last two classes). All of it has stuck with my dogs and even now I take them to another class where I drop in weekly they are used as demos because they are pretty advanced. Do some research on different trainers..you'll find one you like


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Puppies SHOULD NOT be trained with e collars. Even if this trainer tells you he's not going to use it as punishment (and as neg. reinforcement which is how they should be used) ... puppies learn better with pos. reinforcement. If for some reason you require the extra help of such a tool, that window opens up when your pup is much older! If Petsmart is the only training facility in your area that does pos. reinforcement, then I'd say go for it... it's not nearly as good as a private trainer/business that offers classes, but it's better than nothing and will help with socialization!


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## dbellamore (Feb 10, 2005)

I had a rescue that was totally irresponsive to anything around his neck. He broke prongs like they were paper clips. I trained and trained this dog but he was so strong I could never trust him on a leash. If he wasnted to get away he could. I had him trained to obeying his commands 99.5% of the time. But that was still too scary for me. (he was a big boy). So I fianlly took him to a trainer who specialized in e-collars. Because I had done all the work, the trainer said "we'll just proof him on the collar". 

Everyday just to keep my skills up I would do three e-collar commands (had the setting on the lowest it would go). 

Then the day came. A little girl was riding her bicycle down the road headed full steam at the dog. He went airborne in her direction. he would have taken her down in a minutes time. I gave him the "come" command, he did not immediately response so I gave him a #5 shock. He literally turned in mid air and made his way back to my side. His heart was pumping, my heart was pumping and the little girl was crying. In the course of his life he probably got shocked 3x. 

While I won't train my pup on an e-collar, he will definated get trained on one around a year and a half.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

edgar said:


> Any experiences with Pet Smart puppy obedience training? Is it worth it?
> 
> Also came across a good trainer with good references but she trains with ecollars. Any experiences with the ecollar?


What's your definition of "a puppy?" Ecollars should not be used on dogs younger than 6 months, so if the dog is younger than that, it's a moot point.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> How can you be a good trainer is you use E collars  (unless for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life).


If you judge the quality of a trainer based only on the tools that he uses, you'll be missing out on a lot of really excellent trainers. MOST top competitors (and that means people who are winning competitions at the highest [meaning national and above] levels) are using Ecollars in most types of competition. I'd hesitate to say that they're not good trainers.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

SueDoNimm said:


> Bird dog trainers have been using electric collars for decades in training and I've seen how effective it is, but I don't feel like it's the best way to train a GSD,


I don't think that there is a single _"best way to train a GSD."_ It depends completely on the dog, what he's being trained for and how he responds to various tools/methods. 



SueDoNimm said:


> I've felt an e-collar on the first and second settings (all collars don't have the same intensity) and couldn't feel anything at all on the first setting. * I was on my hands and knees so as to be grounded like a dog * and I have a pretty intense fear of being shocked, but I felt nothing at all. They're supposed to be used as pressure not punishment, and are more gentle than something like a prong collar when on the lowest settings. [Emphasis Added]


Whether you're on all fours or not, has nothing to do with how you'll feel the stim. The current almost exclusively travels between the two contact points on the collar and they're about 1 1/4" apart. The current doesn't flow through your body to the ground as occurs with a charged fence. They can be used as both pressure and/or punishment. It depends on the stage of training, what's being trained and the method of using the tool that's the trainer prefers. 



SueDoNimm said:


> It's not something I would choose for my dog and definitely not a puppy, but I have seen some very nice results from using them. Honestly, for most dogs, I can't see much reason for one unless you absolutely can't train a solid recall from a long distance and it's something you require from your dog.


I think that every dog needs two bombproof commands. "Bombproof" means that the dog will obey a single voice command, no matter how far he is from the handler (as long as he can hear the command, of course) and no matter what distractions are present. The two commands are the recall and a stationary command, a sit or a down.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zeeva said:


> My GSD is way to sensitive while on an E-collar. I quit using it also because I didn't use it correctly and I didn't have a trainer to show me.


I'd bet that you weren't using a quality Ecollar that had at least 100 levels. For dogs who are very sensitive to the stim, you need lots of very low levels of stim and most collars don't have that. If you're interested, my articles, Home teach people with no experience with Ecollars, how to use them.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> How can you be a good trainer is you use E collars  (unless for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life).


 well, it is certainly better than what my trainer uses, my trainer uses baseball bats!!!


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> I don't think that there is a single _"best way to train a GSD."_ It depends completely on the dog, what he's being trained for and how he responds to various tools/methods.
> 
> ---I can agree with this. Of course not all dogs of the same breed are going to respond the same way to training. I can't agree with it being the best way to start with a puppy, though.---
> 
> ...


---Good point. I'm working with my dog on bombproofing recall and stay, but adding a bombproof sit or down would definitely be important.---



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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm using traditional training right now, and it is completely useless with my pup. I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting. I can't wait until she gets old enough to try an eCollar. It might not work either, but it is worth a shot.

Two dogs in my neighborhood were trained on electric collars to stay within the boundaries of their yard, and it worked wonders for them.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> I'm using traditional training right now, and it is completely useless with my pup. I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting. I can't wait until she gets old enough to try an eCollar. It might not work either, but it is worth a shot.
> 
> Two dogs in my neighborhood were trained on electric collars to stay within the boundaries of their yard, and it worked wonders for them.


What is the age of your pup? What 'traditional methods' are you using? Have you sought out the help of a trainer? Usually, if a pup isn't learning something it's the fault or lack of knowledge of the trainer.. not the pup. You may not be getting results because the pup doesn't understand what you want.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LouCastle said:


> If you judge the quality of a trainer based only on the tools that he uses, you'll be missing out on a lot of really excellent trainers. MOST top competitors (and that means people who are winning competitions at the highest [meaning national and above] levels) are using Ecollars in most types of competition. I'd hesitate to say that they're not good trainers.


What competition are you talking about? I'm pretty sure most trials do not allow ecollars to be used during the actual trial. I mean the AKC doesn't allow a prong in the obedience ring, why would they ever allow an ecollar?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jrnabors said:


> I'm using traditional training right now, and it is completely useless with my pup. I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting. I can't wait until she gets old enough to try an eCollar. It might not work either, but it is worth a shot.
> 
> Two dogs in my neighborhood were trained on electric collars to stay within the boundaries of their yard, and it worked wonders for them.


You think an ecollar will housetrain your dog? What are you going to do? Shock it every time it goes to the bathroom inside? Sorry but the only people I've heard use an ecollar are ones that want quick fixes to dogs that don't pay attention or dogs that won't recall. The owner doesn't want to take the time to properly teach this and so they get an ecollar. I was just at the dog park and a lady was telling me how great her ecollar is...but she at least admitted that it was because she didn't want to take the time to properly teach it with positive methods.

An ecollar is definitely useful for hunting dogs...they go too far out for verbal corrections and even verbal commands so those collars just signal to the dog that its time to come back to the owner, they aren't used to housebreak them or teach them not to bite.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> You think an ecollar will housetrain your dog? What are you going to do? Shock it every time it goes to the bathroom inside? *Sorry but the only people I've heard use an ecollar are ones that want quick fixes to dogs that don't pay attention or dogs that won't recall. The owner doesn't want to take the time to properly teach this and so they get an ecollar.* I was just at the dog park and a lady was telling me how great her ecollar is...but she at least admitted that it was because she didn't want to take the time to properly teach it with positive methods.
> 
> An ecollar is definitely useful for hunting dogs...they go too far out for verbal corrections and even verbal commands so those collars just signal to the dog that its time to come back to the owner, they aren't used to housebreak them or teach them not to bite.


I completely disagree with this statement. I have been teaching recall from day 1 of me getting my pup. He is now 15 months old (well, Sunday). He is EXCELLENT until faced with deer jumping in his face. We backpack far into the wilderness (in fact, we're leaving Friday again) where there are black bears, grizzlies, cougar and all the four-footed variety of animals. This is hard to "proof" conventionally. To imply I haven't "taken the time to properly teach this" is rather insulting.

I do agree that using an ecollar for housebreaking and biting is ridiculous.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting.


That's because in the thread where you asked about those things, you didn't seem to listen/want to hear what people had to say!

If anyone believes shocking their dog to housetrain it is the way to go, they should not even own a dog


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

PS. I think Petsmart training could help both you (OP) and the person w/the un-housebroken puppy, it would certainly help you understand that in order to teach the puppy anything you must communicate accurately with the puppy.
Both petco and petsmart have positive-based training as well, and can show you it can be done without the (improper) use of e-collars and prongs on these baby puppies.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Sorry but the only people I've heard use an ecollar are ones that want quick fixes to dogs that don't pay attention or dogs that won't recall. The owner doesn't want to take the time to properly teach this and so they get an ecollar. I was just at the dog park and a lady was telling me how great her ecollar is...but she at least admitted that it was because she didn't want to take the time to properly teach it with positive methods.
> 
> An ecollar is definitely useful for hunting dogs...they go too far out for verbal corrections and even verbal commands so those collars just signal to the dog that its time to come back to the owner, they aren't used to housebreak them or teach them not to bite.


I use an ecollar and it isn't for a quick fix. It is a tool, just like a prong collar. I don't use it for everything, just like I don't use a prong collar for everything. I have to say that I have never used it to correct a recall or to get my dog's attention. I am most definitely a postive trainer, but there is a time and a place for various types of correction. My dogs are trained at a very high level and compete at a high level. No, they don't wear the ecollar at competitions, just for training. The vast majority of high level people use ecollars for various things, because you can get in a quick, no conflict, distant correction at whatever level of correction you need.

Hunting dogs wear them to correct them at a distance and not just to tell them to come back.

You clearly have zero understanding of training or competition dogs, so I don't understand why you are arguing about this. If you want to stay at a low pet level of training, then keep up this sort of thinking.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

RocketDog, I agree with your disagreement (for the same reasons and others) and also agree that an e-collar should not be used for potty training, etc. 

Martemchick, I think additional research will reveal that many (certainly not all) good trainers and top competitors in dog sport use e-collars as a tool in their training. Moreover, the use of an e-collar and the use of positive reinforcement are not mutually exclusive. Just because someone uses an e-collar, does not mean they have not taught behaviors with positive methods. Likewise, it does not mean they are blasting there dogs with very high stim at every turn. Just like a leash and collar, in the right hands it can be useful and effective. Just like a leash and collar, in the wrong hands it can be ugly. It all depends on the hands it is in. It is simply a tool that one can put in their tool box if they so choose.

Edit - Elaine, you snuck in there before I posted. Good post!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jrnabors said:


> I'm using traditional training right now, and it is completely useless with my pup. I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting.


I suspect this has more to do with the skill level, and lack of proper understanding and application of training techniques than it does with a flaw in the technique. I don't know how old your pup is, but house training and bite inhibition do take time and patience, but they are not that difficult to accomplish. 

What do you mean by "traditional training"?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I would never use an e-collar on a young puppy.

I think they can be a useful tool when training a dog who knows it's obedience but is maybe choosing to ignore their handler. I would not have confidence to use one myself without a lot of help from a very experienced trainer.

I've heard more poor reviews than good for PetsMart classes. Are there no other options? Find a good positive reinforcement style of training place. You want a dog who's happy and willing in its work.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also would never use an e-collar on a young puppy.

I guess I just don't get it, if you (general you), have a GOOD trainer, if you are diligent/patient/fair/and have some 'know how' in training a dog, GSD's can be one of the easiest puppies to train. They are not stupid animals but they don't come 'knowing' what is and is not expected of them. 

When one lacks patience/fairness it's usually the handler who is the problem vs the puppy/dog.

Putting an ecollar on a puppy to housebreak tells me the owner is not doing his job, wants a quick fix, and frankly, just lazy about monitoring their puppy.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> I'm using traditional training right now, and it is completely useless with my pup. I've taught her a few things, but have made no progress on bigger or better things or even basic stuff like housetraining and not biting. *I can't wait until she gets old enough to try an eCollar. It might not work either, but it is worth a shot.*
> 
> Two dogs in my neighborhood were trained on electric collars to stay within the boundaries of their yard, and it worked wonders for them.


Training your dog to stay in the yard with an e-collar is acceptable in some cases. 

IMO, other training on a 4-5 month old puppy should not involve shock collar training.
Please don't do this...

GSDs , properly trained, will RESPECT their owners and are willing to please naturally. 
This can take a long time...sometimes a year or more, depending on your skills.
IMO, Training and discipline (for a 4-5 month old pup) out of *FEAR* will only produce more problems.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> How can you be a good trainer is you use E collars  (unless for very rare, specific situations that might save the dog's life).


I prefer to use the ecollar over any other tool. You just don't know how to use it correctly. Its a proven fact it causes less stress to the dog when you use an ecollar. By proven, I mean in formal studies where cortisol levels of the dogs are measured throughout training and compared to dogs trained with a pinch, or verbal only. Verbal corrections caused the highest stress in the dog.

That being said, I don't put a pinch or an ecollar or do any hard corrections till the dogs' approaching a year old.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I guess I just don't get it, if you (general you), have a GOOD trainer, if you are diligent/patient/fair/and have some 'know how' in training a dog, GSD's can be one of the easiest puppies to train. They are not stupid animals but they don't come 'knowing' what is and is not expected of them.
> 
> When one lacks patience/fairness it's usually the handler who is the problem vs the puppy/dog.


:thumbup: If you haven't had a puppy in a long time you forget how much work they are. I love puppies and they're tons of fun, but they are also exhausting!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Elaine said:


> You clearly have zero understanding of training or competition dogs, so I don't understand why you are arguing about this. If you want to stay at a low pet level of training, then keep up this sort of thinking.


I understand that on this website those of us that train for AKC obedience competition are second class citizens. And thank you once again for pointing that out. I do train my dog for obedience, and have had plenty of compliments how MY FIRST dog has just gotten his CD and has just turned 2. But that's alright, I'm "just" a pet owner so therefore I don't know anything and shouldn't have an opinion on this forum. Please will Schutzhund people and people that have time to train in other "more respectable" venues chime in on this forum as clearly the ones that do anything AKC related are lower than dirt.

The wild animal thing...that's different. I said the PEOPLE I HAVE SPOKEN TO...which are usually at local dog parks, have pretty much spelled out for me that they wanted to train their dog quickly and this was the way to do it. I know it can be used as a tool to get advanced things taught, but I was responding to someone that is planning on housetraining a puppy with an ecollar...not teach a 200 yd recall or sit. Also, I go out in the wilderness as well. We don't have bears or mountain lions, but we see plenty of deer and other wildlife, I have been able to get my dog to recall without it. I'm not saying you're not using your ecollar properly, but this is a skill that can be taught another way...and can be proofed in other ways. Your decision to use the ecollar for that is not one that I used or would use, but it worked for you so I'm not going to judge you or give you ridicule for it. Just pointing out that things can be done other ways.

I also know someone that has a dog which was tried in Schutzhund...the dog could do everything except she didn't have the nerves to stay for the gun shot...the answer the trainer came up with was to shock the dog and make it stay. That dog then got passed to its current owner and although she has made great strides with her, she can't even get her CD because she gets fearful in certain situations. I know that this dog doesn't have the best nerve, but it was amplified by the use of a shock collar and not helped at all. I see that collar, in the hands of the wrong people, as something that can do way more bad than good. Lets be serious...a person that wants to housetrain with it...probably not the right person for the tool.

Anyways...I'll stay out of this discussion as nothing I do is relative to this and I haven't just gone through the raising of a puppy in the last two years.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

It all depends on the dog, I didn't have to use an e collar for my 2 previous dogs. But I had to with Koda, we must have used it less than 10 times.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Josie/Zeus said:


> It all depends on the dog, I didn't have to use an e collar for my 2 previous dogs. But I had to with Koda, we must have used it less than 10 times.


Agreed. Some dogs have much less prey drive than others. Recently I had a friend over who also has a GSD and when I asked him about hiking/packing and his dog (with deer), he said his dog never ever even tried to go after them once.

Additionally, I think AKC Obedience is high level training personally. My labrador was trained in this and competed, and he was excellent--never needed a leash or collar unless we were somewhere it was required. However, he did not have quite the prey drive my pup does--although he was still trained with an ecollar for deer.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

No dog "needs" and ecollar, nor does any dog "not need an ecollar". Its a tool some folks choose to use and others do not choose to use. Same as all the other tools. I can train the same thing with a prong, with treats, with a ball, with my voice and hands.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

martemchik said:


> *I understand that on this website those of us that train for AKC obedience competition are second class citizens. And thank you once again for pointing that out.*
> 
> *I do train my dog for obedience, and have had plenty of compliments how MY FIRST dog has just gotten his CD and has just turned 2. But that's alright, I'm "just" a pet owner so therefore I don't know anything and shouldn't have an opinion on this forum. Please will Schutzhund people and people that have time to train in other "more respectable" venues chime in on this forum as clearly the ones that do anything AKC related are lower than dirt ......*


I don't think that way at all. 
I have the highest respect for anyone that works/trains their dogs, in any venue.
Or even if it's a pet. 


That's why this forum is important...Everyones opinion counts. I understand the use of e collars ...but, I personally wouldn't use it on a 4 month old puppy to house break him.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I understand that on this website those of us that train for AKC obedience competition are second class citizens. And thank you once again for pointing that out. I do train my dog for obedience, and have had plenty of compliments how MY FIRST dog has just gotten his CD and has just turned 2. But that's alright, I'm "just" a pet owner so therefore I don't know anything and shouldn't have an opinion on this forum. Please will Schutzhund people and people that have time to train in other "more respectable" venues chime in on this forum as clearly the ones that do anything AKC related are lower than dirt.
> 
> The wild animal thing...that's different. I said the PEOPLE I HAVE SPOKEN TO...which are usually at local dog parks, have pretty much spelled out for me that they wanted to train their dog quickly and this was the way to do it. I know it can be used as a tool to get advanced things taught, but I was responding to someone that is planning on housetraining a puppy with an ecollar...not teach a 200 yd recall or sit. Also, I go out in the wilderness as well. We don't have bears or mountain lions, but we see plenty of deer and other wildlife, I have been able to get my dog to recall without it. I'm not saying you're not using your ecollar properly, but this is a skill that can be taught another way...and can be proofed in other ways. Your decision to use the ecollar for that is not one that I used or would use, but it worked for you so I'm not going to judge you or give you ridicule for it. Just pointing out that things can be done other ways.
> 
> ...


Again, you are speaking of things you know nothing about. I'm not bashing AKC obedience as I've been competing in it forever, I also do SchH and agility. I never said people that train for AKC obedience were second class, just that you are arguing over things you know nothing about and are going to stay at a low pet level of training if you don't open your mind.

You know nothing about how to use an ecollar or what to use it for so how the heck would you know if you can train a behavior with or without it?

So you know someone that trained with an ecollar improperly and totally screwed up their dog. Big deal. I can show you so many more pet people that have screwed up their dog without using one.

I agree you shouldn't argue about things you know nothing about. You've had one whole dog for two years. Can't wait to hear more of what you have learned and want to share.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't think we should make this post about a matter of egos  I know most of us here respect both what Elaine has to say and martemchik. I've gotten some wonderful advice from both of these caring people and lets just all get along peepz  <3 <3 <3

Anyway, I saw this episode of the dog whisper once. It was about a dog that needed training around small dogs. This dog had actually killed a small dog  I was enticed by it because I know my two have the capacity to playfully kill a small dog as well  Caesar used a shock collar on the dog if it got to close to a small dog or it 'seemed' like the dog was going to hurt the other small dog. I felt like he wasn't using the shock collar correctly in this instance but I don't know. The dogs reaction was basically to back away from the small dog and ignore it. At one point the dog actually just turned it's back to the small dog and lied down. I tried searching for the episode on hulu and youtube but couldn't find it. So that's the best description I can give. Do you think this is an incorrect way to use a shock collar? If not, can I learn to train my dogs to socialize with small dogs this way?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Nice discussion...all you do is put me down for my "low level pet training" and haven't answered my question of what high level competition allows an ecollar during the trialing portion of said competition. My fault for being born in a different decade and being young...guess my opinions don't matter.

Man why do people even get dogs when they're young? We must not know anything! Dogs should be reserved for those who have had years of experience and probably owned at least 5 dogs before they should be allowed to get a new one. The rest of us should just go to training sessions...without dogs for years and years until someone allows us to purchase a dog of our own that we can then use all the things we have learned on that dog.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/170646#i0,p31,d0,f1
I found it. You can find him using the shock collar in about 11:45


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Nice discussion...all you do is put me down for my "low level pet training" and haven't answered my question of what high level competition allows an ecollar during the trialing portion of said competition. My fault for being born in a different decade and being young...guess my opinions don't matter.
> 
> Man why do people even get dogs when they're young? We must not know anything! Dogs should be reserved for those who have had years of experience and probably owned at least 5 dogs before they should be allowed to get a new one. The rest of us should just go to training sessions...without dogs for years and years until someone allows us to purchase a dog of our own that we can then use all the things we have learned on that dog.


You can only have a fursaver on during an IPO trial, and then there are no corrections whatsoever.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

One thing I've learned is there is no win on the Internet, but can leave trails of dead bodies and hurt feelings.

Easiest thing to suggest? Ignore advice you don't like. And don't agrue on the internet... because ... its pointless  Discuss to your hearts content but if you start to get hurt by the talk ignore it and move on 

That being said I'm following this closely as the whole e-collar thing is new to me!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't think you should ignore the advice you don't like. If you do, then you'll get into the problem of "shopping" for the advice you do want. On the 'net, you're able to find anything to support whatever wacky idea you might have. I found sites that said to put prong collars on 8 week old puppies, as an example! Whoa!

I DO think you should ignore the actual tone of a post, if it's bothering you. But you should look past the tone to find the meaning of the words. This shouldn't be too difficult - just don't take it personally.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My opinion: if you are in need for an E collar (note: you, not the dog) it means that you have skipped steps in his/her training and moved to fast so you have failed in this aspect of the training. 
WD is teaching me to take it slowly. He is 7 months and only now have I started him on distance and impulse control. Of course I could have forced him into this higher level when he was 4 months old with an E collar but now I have a dog who is confident and happy during his training sessions and therefore solid because I never ask anything from him that he is not ready for. When he was a young pup I worked on the basics and the NILIF concept. And yes, once in a while I pinched him in his neck with a verbal correction when he ambushed me with these shark teeth but I could handle him without an E collar. 

They are smart enough that when trained at home with E collars, that they take advantage on trials where they are not allowed (why actually, because they are cruel?)
In some European countries you need a license as a trainer to use them but here you get them at Petco's checkout......


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> My opinion: if you are in need for an E collar (note: you, not the dog) it means that you have skipped steps in his/her training and moved to fast so you have failed in this aspect of the training.
> WD is teaching me to take it slowly. He is 7 months and only now have I started him on distance and impulse control. Of course I could have forced him into this higher level when he was 4 months old with an E collar but now I have a dog who is confident and happy during his training sessions and therefore solid because I never ask anything from him that he is not ready for. When he was a young pup I worked on the basics and the NILIF concept. And yes, once in a while I pinched him in his neck with a verbal correction when he ambushed me with these shark teeth but I could handle him without an E collar.
> 
> They are smart enough that when trained at home with E collars, that they take advantage on trials where they are not allowed (why actually, because they are cruel?)
> In some European countries you need a license as a trainer to use them but here you get them at Petco's checkout......


Not exactly true. E-Collars are just another tool in the toolbox. It's not meant to be cruel or for punishment only (as everything though, there ARE some who misuse them.. but that's the same with everything). It's the same as a prong, choke chain, martingale, etc. It give the handler the ability to correct from a distance and also without the hands touching the dog. It gives the ability to guide the dog to what you want from them. When you add voice correction and praise... it's win win. The dog gets it and it's much less stress on the dog and less strain on the handler. Especially when you are working a very large hard dog. Most dogs don't even need to be shocked, lots of trainers use the vibrate most of the time with the occasional nick. It's just to cue the dog to what you want. 

I've used it occasionally on Duke and I would certainly say it did not gain any extra steps for us... it did just the same as the prong (and for him being handler sensitive... the flat collar as well).... just gave us more space to work and for me being a small female with a large male dog... a little more muscle.

Personally, I have my own "toolbox" for my dogs.... and the e-collar will be added to that soon. It's just another way to train. Depending on the dog, I use many many different techniques and tools.

Now would I put it on a young pup? Definitely not. I see no problem with it for adults though. You (general you) need to keep an open mind when working with animals. It's not black and white... right and wrong. it's always good to have a whole bag of different ways and ideas to work with each individual dog and temperament (and handler).

Edit: Wolfy Dog... Just wanted to add, this was not an attempt to put down your style of training or say it's the wrong way. It's not, and some dogs and handlers do well like that... definitely nothing wrong with it. In my opinion, if the dog and handler are happy, healthy, learning, and executing the job correctly.... there's no wrong way. That's the joys of working with animals.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Nice discussion...all you do is put me down for my "low level pet training" and haven't answered my question of what high level competition allows an ecollar during the trialing portion of said competition. My fault for being born in a different decade and being young...guess my opinions don't matter.


There's nothing wrong with ecollars being used CORRECTLY. Putting one on a puppy is not correct puppy training and that is what people are objecting to. 

That's all. The dogs who are trialing are advanced, older dogs who know what the handler wants. They are also working in high intensity, so you sometimes need a stronger correction to get their attention when they are 'in the zone'.

I do flyball with my puppy and those people are dead against prong collars, but I'm not. They are a great training tool for a breed like this, when used correctly and at an appropriate age.

We have a saying with horse people "Ask 10 people, you'll get 12 opinions"

Just find what works for you, but I would really leave the ecollar for now and just work on your basic training on a lead or line.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok...here's the thing. I don't mind an ecollar. I don't mind it when its in the right hands and is being used for something that the trainer has already tried teaching with standard methods and for some reason just can't get through to the dog. Every person that posted their personal success story with an ecollar is not the majority of the people that use an ecollar. The majority of people use and ecollar (like wolfy dog said) in order to skip steps and make training go faster (its a great tool for that).

I was at the dog park...lady was telling me about how great the ecollar is...her dog raised a lip towards mine for no reason and she goes "watch this" takes out her buzzer and buzzes the dog. He lowers his lip and just lays there. She was standing 10 ft away from the dog...she could've easily corrected with a regular collar, but she chooses to press a button instead.

It's great that many of you use your ecollars and have success...but I'll never agree that most dogs need them. Somehow we were able to train dogs to do things 50 years ago without this technology to do the same thing that dogs do today. It's fine if you've weighed the other options and just realize there is no other choice, but there are just too many people (like the one that can't wait to use one on a puppy) that just don't have the patience and use it as a fast forward so to speak.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Edit: Wolfy Dog... Just wanted to add, this was not an attempt to put down your style of training or say it's the wrong way. It's not, and some dogs and handlers do well like that... definitely nothing wrong with it. In my opinion, if the dog and handler are happy, healthy, learning, and executing the job correctly.... there's no wrong way. That's the joys of working with animals.


Thanks. That's why I posted it as my personal opinion, not in any way to put others down who know what they are doing. My main concern is that they sell them online and at Petco, etc. to everyone who wants one, knowledge of dogs or not.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Every person that posted their personal success story with an ecollar is not the majority of the people that use an ecollar. The majority of people use and ecollar (like wolfy dog said) in order to skip steps and make training go faster (its a great tool for that).


Wow, do people really misunderstand e-collars!

I have no idea what the majority of people use them for. But when used right, they are a lot easier on the dog and the bond with the handler than a prong collar -- which is a lot easier on the dog than a choke collar. 

When you say they are used to skip steps, that is pretty insulting. A trainer will use the same number of steps with an e-Collar... just instead of administering a correction via a leash, he does it through a slight buzz.

If you take the time to slowly work up the scale of the e-collar to find the point where your dog "just feels" the buzz, you will usually be on an amazingly low level of "shock". In fact, most people who care about their dogs have put the collar on themselves. I would compare it to the zing you would get from touching your tongue to a nine volt battery -- which is something we kids used to do on a dare.

It works as a simple "nick" -- not a "shock the beast into submission." When you work with the dog at this level, it is a WHOLE lot more humane than "popping" them with a prong collar (or, God forbid, a choke collar which is REALLY a nasty correction!)

If you watch the reaction of a dog that gets a snap from a leash as correction as opposed to one who has been "nicked" by an e-collar, it isn't even close. 

The woman you mention at a dog park is a sadist. She shouldn't even have a dog, IMHO. But then, what do I know, I think Dog Parks are a dumb idea, so I stay away from them.

All of that said... OP: as the others have noted, yeah, you shouldn't be using an e-collar on a four month old puppy. As for Petsmart training, they are not all created equal. In my experience, some of them are good, some of them aren't -- depending on who is running it. It's not like McDonalds where all of the hamburgers taste basically the same. Your experience will vary quite a lot from store to store. Try it and see. Don't trust the trainer their blindly, though.


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