# VA working lines?



## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Wasnt sure what section to put this, but I was curious if anyone knows of any VA rated working line dogs? Just curious, would like to see pics or pedigrees! You can share V rated too Im sure there are more of those.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

No VA working line dogs for MANY MANY years. Sorry! Lots of handsome V dogs though!


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I kinda figured there were very very few if any, but thanks for confirming!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakYou can share V rated too Im sure there are more of those.


Don't know if you want WG working lines only or if DDR lines are OK too.

Here are a couple of V rated DDR line dogs.

V Aron vom Poppitz SchH 3 KKL 1. 

V Walko vom Grafental SchH3 KKL 1 

V Puck vom Grafental SchH 3 

And if you look at their pedigrees, they both have V rated dogs in them also


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks DDR is fine! those are indeed some nice looking dogs... and Puck...
















Keep em coming.. DDR are known for their structure but theres gotta be some V- WG dogs too!

About not being any VA working lines, do you (anyone) think this is because breeders/owners with working lines priorities are different or because judging would not allow it? A little of both?


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## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

Not since the late 60's and early 70's.

Here is a list of V rated working dogs I've compiled:

V Nick v Heiligenbosch SchH3, FH
V Arek vom Stoffelblick SchH3, FH
V Gildo vom Körbelbach SchH3, IP3, FH
V Held vom Ritterberg SchH3
V Hassan von den Hasselwiesen SchH2
V Karlo vom Peko Haus SchH3
V Ork vom Wolfendobel SchH3
V Ilja aus dem schwarzen Zwinger SchH3, IP3, FH
V Elk von Karthago SchH3
V Brix vom Kapfwald SchH3, FH
V Eagle v Eichenluft SchH3, IPO3, FH
V Fax vom Haus Bernhart-Mader SchH3, IPO3, FH
V Deika von den Wannaer Höhen SchH3
V Sid v Fasanerie SchH3
V Aik v Haus Cindy SchH3, IPO3, FH
V Sara vom Bramberg SchH3 FH
V Mentor vom Haus Iris SchH3 FH PSH2
V Fero vom Zeutener Himmelreich SchH 3 FH Kkl1’a’
V Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen SchH3 FH1 IP3
V Xito von der Maineiche SchH3
V Harro aus der Lechrainstadt SchH3, IP3, FH
V Bodo van Tiekerhook IPO3
V Dax vd Kesmarker Tranke SchH3, IPO3, FH
V Bodo v Lahnufer SchH3
V Falko v Haus Sindern SchH3, FH
V Perry v Beilstein SchH3, IP3, FH
V Andy von der Bildsäule SchH3, FH, DH2, WPO
V Uwe v Kirschental SchH3, FH
V Fiasko von Gebrüder Grimm SchH3, IP3
V Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft SchH3
V Yoschy von der Döllenwiese SchH3
V Aly vom Vordersteinwald SchH3, FH2
V Basko von der Lutter SchH3
V Rex von Karthago SchH3, IPO3, FH
V Cliff von der Möhnequelle SchH3, FH
V Camp vom Mühlteich SchH3, FH
V Askia vom Froschgraben SchH3, IP3, FH
V Xato von der bösen Nachbarschaft SchH3, IP3


John Haudenshield


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: KHudak
> 
> About not being any VA working lines, do you (anyone) think this is because breeders/owners with working lines priorities are different or because judging would not allow it? A little of both?


Both.

Everything about the look of a VA dog is quite different from most working lines, and most judges wouldn't give a chance to a dog that didn't represent the current cookie cutter fashion in the show ring, even if it was the better specimen compared to the standard. They might rate the dog well, but for a lot of reasons, many of those political, they're not going to give it a VA. Especially since most in the working line camp aren't going to play the political and money games that can have big influence with the judges on who gets those VA ratings. 

And I don't think many working line breeders would want to achieve modern VA structure anyway. Not for anything other than bragging rights. V structure sure. But the structure that tends to draw the VA ratings from judge's in today's show ring isn't something that is in line with the priorities of most working line breeders because it's not the best structure for achieving their main goal in terms of what they want to accomplish with their dogs.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Here are some more.









V Jimbeam vom Talka Marda SchH3 IPO 3 KKL 1  

*And his littermates:*

V Javir vom Talka Marda SchH3 KKL 1 

V John vom Talka Marda SchH3 KKL 1 


V Hetty von den Schwedenschanzen HGH (She is a daughter of Aron vom Poppitz from my first post.)

And an Aron son:

V Franz vom Wartenberg SchH 3 FH KKL 1


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

So VA structure could affect working ability, to some extent? And VA doesn't always mean best structure according to the standard?
Maybe this should be another thread, but.. who makes the standards? and when were they made? Was a standard made when the breed was created? If so why has it changed?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

V Dragon vom Felsenschloß


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

by the way, thanks John and Tracy!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakSo VA structure could affect working ability, to some extent?


Yes. Watch VA dogs move other than at a trot, and it's obvious. Many of these dogs show a significant loss of speed and agility in favor of trot, trot, trot....



> Originally Posted By: KHudakAnd VA doesn't always mean best structure according to the standard?


In the minds of some, yes. In the minds of others, no.



> Originally Posted By: KHudakMaybe this should be another thread, but.. who makes the standards? and when were they made? Was a standard made when the breed was created? If so why has it changed?


The standard is set forth but the breed club. The original standard was created but the SV in Germany. The GSDCA standard in the US is based on that, with only minimal differences.

In reality, the standard hasn't changed much in 100 years. People's interpretations of it however do.

German show lines and American show lines are essentially bred to the same standard too, with the top dogs in each venue being (supposedly) the dogs closest to the standard.

Yet dogs of neither type look even remotely like one another. How can that be when both are supposedly representatives of the standard? Different interpretations by different people.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

It hasn't changed? Am and German standards aren't that different? What?!!!



























I do believe you, but thats just hard to believe... yea you could say there has been just a tiny bit of different interpretation no?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jaguar and Justa Aritar Bastet,Justa went V-1 against all high lines in a show.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

V Falk von den Wolfen SCHH3 IP3 (3 X SGBSP) KKL1 

V Verdi von Karthago SCHH2, IPO2, VPG3, KKL1

V Basko von Haus Heldmann SCHH3 BSP Kkl 1


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

The "V's" to me have always looked so much closer to the illistrated standards I have seen than the VA's.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Remember, a LOT of why a dog, male, goes VA is based on his progeny group at these "shows". You don't see a lot of working line males at sieger shows to begin with, (which is the only place a dog can obtain a VA rating). In order to obtain a VA rating, most judges are looking at the progeny groups, how well those pups from the male placed in the show. I haven't seen a lot of working line dogs putting up progeny at a sieger show. Too **** bad if you ask me! ALSO, if only the dogs who presented correct bite work at the performance test and the bite work was actually considered for the placement of the ring for those dogs, we might see things a bit differently. 

I would LOVE to see a working line dog take VA1 at a sieger show! I would cheer so freakin' loud! and I own show lines!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

V Xito v d Maineiche

there were other colors going VA before the split in the breed - Bernd and Bodo Lierburg, Frei v d Gugge

Lee


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I like VA2 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm Sch3
This was about the time i think of Bernd and Bodo--40 years ago
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/33.html


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

New addition to the V list Delayed as we focused on the work and just put Enzo back in the show ring.

HUGE brag for Gabor. He has not only trained and titled his dogs, but he is doing the showing (with no double handling) 3 dogs: Enzo, Fannie and Dax, an Enzo Fannie son.

Enzo is now V KK1!!! He received his V at the show this weekend with an incredible critique from the judge, who noted his excellent condition, after 7 World Championships, noted his strong working ability and intensity(he has seen him work numerous times), his structure and movement (commented on his strong rear drive, notable for a working line dog).

And the last time he was in the ring (showing or training) was 5 years ago at the SE Regionals. 

Fannie got her SG and KK1! Trained, titled, and handled/shown in the ring by Gabor.

And Dax, an Enzo/Fannie son, received SG1 in the 12-18 class. In training and handled/shown in the ring by Gabor.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Congrats!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Great news, Sue (and Gabor).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Awesome congrats!!!

I don't know if this was mentioned or not but the VA rating (at least the one's I've seen awarded) were based on a dog's progeny and not so much conformation, so it would be extremely rare for a working line to go VA because while you do see them in the ring, I've never seen a working line progeny group or several progeny being shown. I am still a novice but when I see a V-rated dog I assume it has the "correct" conformation and type (I use "" because correct is relative to what you like to see) and when I see VA I assume that dog is a proven producer.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Lost you the other night! LOL 

A Big Congrats Sue and Gabor... 

Love to see those V-rated Work Dogs!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Congrats Sue, Gabor and Enzo!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)




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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Great job Sue and Gabor, Always felt that Enzo was very correct structurally, as well as good strong shepherd temperament....Great Job!!


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