# Rescue Counselor exposed my family to Parvo with no warning!



## 8lbcalico

Not happy this subject is my first post to your site. 

Short story:
GSD rescue knowingly exposed my family and home to Parvo. Allowed us to visit a property where several puppies contracted Parvo, allowed my kids play with them in the same areas they defecated in and then came to our home to inspect indoors and outdoors directly (10 minute car ride) after being exposed to this area. Never told us they had parvo prior to being exposed, and never explained what parvo was. They knew we were looking at and in contact with other puppies.

How do I handle this go public? Voice my opinion? File a complaint? With who? Who regulates these people? This was immeasurably irresponsible for the counselor to have conducted herself this way without informing us. Should we do something?

I'm so mad! What if I can no longer bring a puppy home!


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## Stonevintage

I'd be mad too! There are precautions that must be taken and it sounds like none were. I don't know who, if anyone regulates anything with any animal groups.

Our local Humane Society - last summer, brought in a rescue dog flight of which there was one or more dogs infected with hep. Many dogs died and they had adopted out puppies for 2 weeks before they realized what they had on their hands. The shelter was closed for over 6 weeks and couldn't take in any new animals. All this because the shelter in Los Angeles let two dogs onto the flight at the last minute that escaped the shot/quarantine protocol..... The infection got into the Humane Society shelter too in the county to our North and shut them down for 6 weeks. 

From reading through their reports - there are only "suggestions" provided for proper protocal on disease transmission prevention - not laws....

Have you called your local Humane Society and reported this? Just be aware anything you say to them will probably travel the pipeline to all rescue groups as well - generally a tight knit group......


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## 8lbcalico

Stonevintage said:


> Have you called your local Humane Society and reported this? Just be aware anything you say to them will probably travel the pipeline to all rescue groups as well - generally a tight knit group......


No, I have only had conversations regarding this with the few breeders we have since considered.


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## Jax08

Do you think you can contract it? Clean and disinfect your house well. Bleach your shoes. Who would you go public to? I uneed stand your anger but I think you are overreacting


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## Stonevintage

8lbcalico said:


> No, I have only had conversations regarding this with the few breeders we have since considered.


I wouldn't hesitate to call the Humane Society and report it. It is most likely that they have affiliations with the rescue and can require improved standard practices if that relationship/referral is to continue. To do nothing would not be doing a service to anyone IMO. If what you say is absolute true - it needs to be corrected ASAP. I wouldn't not want to talk myself into thinking I was over reacting and not do anything and let a serious problem continue..... I would make the call and tell them exactly what I saw and heard and let them carry the ball on that they think needs to be done.


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## 8lbcalico

Jax08 said:


> Do you think you can contract it? Clean and disinfect your house well. Bleach your shoes. Who would you go public to? I uneed stand your anger but I think you are overreacting


From what I have learned contacting 7 local vets and one outside of the area as a control, yes absolutely we would be putting a new puppy with only one or 2 sets of shots into an environment that has higher risk of exposure. 

Almost all vets suggest no contact with the backyard until full screenings are completed at 15-16 weeks.

We have cleaned and done all we can in our house, with a 40to1 bleach and water solution, along with all our shoes. The half acre of dirt, rock, wood chips has little hope of being cleaned.

I have not reacted, I have said nothing other than this post and a few conversations with local breeders. The breeders btw are in consensus "It was highly irresponsible" of her to do this!

I have no idea who would regulate, observe or mandate anything much less receive complaints thus my post and need for knowledge.


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## 8lbcalico

Stonevintage said:


> If what you say is absolute true - it needs to be corrected ASAP.


All I can share with you is what we observed: _the long story_


We thought that a rescue would be a noble and fitting addition to our family. We started contacting local shelters and rescues, we found one who appeared to align with our needs.

The result was a visit with four 16 week old liter mates that were awesome little guys and gals. We were given the fosters address and invited to visit. When we showed up we were brought to the puppies where they normally play throughout the day.


Through our conversation on site with the fosters and counselor we found out that these puppies had survived Parvo less than 6 weeks previous. And that they were diagnosed at the property in the area we were visiting. Her (the counselor) statement was “Oh btw they have survived Parvo so they’re immune, so you won’t have to worry about shots”. We had no idea what Parvo was and carried on watching our kids play with the puppies in the grass and rolling around with them. Obviously we noted this for further research. 


Again we had NO idea how devastating this disease was. Nor were we given this information prior to visiting. After visiting with the puppies the counselor and my family headed back to our home so that the home inspection could take place. We walked the entire common areas of our home and the entire half acre of land.


The next few days we considered the implications of Parvo as we researched and started to realize that not only “could” these puppies have lifelong issues also that Parvo is insanely contagious and remarkably resilient (just need some poop on your shoes and it can live for 6 years in soil). A breeder we contacted who we were up front with about our contact with Parvo absolutely denied us access to her property unless we agreed to strict precautions (reasonably so). From my conversations with this and other breeders it became apparent that there was a lot more to Parvo that we thought. Her concern was that we expose a new puppy with only its first shots to our home that has a much higher concentration than normal. There was a measure of added risk.


I then went on to conduct several phone interviews with local vets and one outside of my state as control. The objective was to get a practical view and general consensus on whether bringing a new puppy to our home would expose them to and possibly put them at risk. 



My family and I feel that it was immeasurably irresponsible for the counselor to have conducted herself this way without informing us. The counselor knew we had and would be visiting other puppies. She knew we might bring another puppy home. She knows how contagious and devastating this disease is and therefore potentially put other puppies at risk. She confirmed this in recent conversations. How do we know that a new puppy here at our home wouldn’t contract Parvo. The kids and us walked all around the area where they spent all their days, defecated, urinated and I’m sure at some point regurgitated.


I'm completely civil with the counselor and in fact I like her. However much I like her, this in my mind was not wise on her behalf.


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## viking

"She confirmed this in recent conversations. "

So, what was her explanation? What did the 8 (!) vets have to say?


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## Stonevintage

Thanks for the thorough explaination. I see your point. To me, it is what it is. 
It only took one read thru Parvo transmission modes to refresh my mind and be extra conscientious about absolutely limiting my new pup's exposure to the neighborhood before her shot series was complete.

Many years go we took out two pups for a walk in the neighborhood. They were the 23rd and 24th cases of Parvo diagnosed in San Diego County. They almost died but received the best of care because these were study cases for the vets and they had heard it was coming to our area. 

When you have seen this disease and you know how long it can stay dormant and you know how easily it transmits, you get very cautious and it's not over reacting. 

I see several people here tell new puppy owners it's ok to take your not fully vaccinated puppy to warehouse stores or "places where it seems not a lot of dogs frequent". Not good....


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> "She confirmed this in recent conversations. "
> 
> So, what was her explanation? What did the 8 (!) vets have to say?



She said, "We thought there was a match and you guys would be bringing these puppies home and there would be no risk as they were immune". Okay if I put myself in her shoes I can see that as one train of thought. Maybe not reasonable or acceptable, but feasible. By the way Immunity is not granted simply because they have had it before. She is misinformed.

As for the vets reactions (I would say this will be long winded but not after what I just posted as the long story). This is a copy of the information I gathered and sent to the breeder we are now going to get our puppy from. It may be helpful for more than just this post and using this else where is encouraged.

7 Actual Vets interviewed
5 Office assistant or Vet Techs interviewed

*Vets opinions and direction:*


Commonly stated: It is everywhere, streets, parks beaches there is no way to keep a dog or puppy or yourself from being exposed in an urban, rural or other environment. There are only precautions and limiting exposure.
Two suggested that if mothers are known to be vaccinated their pups would get some protection from colostrum, I'm not too sure about this.
Weak bleach solution will kill the virus, parvacide can be used on carpet clothing and furniture.
Opinions on how long it lasts in the environment varied: on average indoor surfaces up to a year, out doors in right conditions from 1 to 6 years, one said only a year.
Most said that ideal conditions must be present for parvo to survive very long (no clarification on what those were, how long and how to prevent the conditions form persisting), one said in dirt in sun it would die, the sun kills it.
All said stay current with quality vaccinations, one suggested we could up the frequency of a parvo vaccination to every two weeks
One of them mentioned that they all have dogs and had puppies and deal with parvo at work and simple bleach and water along with vaccinations has kept their pets safe.
All said ensure we clean surfaces and shoes with bleach and spraying concrete, some said spray yard prior to a puppy coming home just to be safe
RE: bring a puppy home, most suggested if we clean and vaccinate there is no more risk than normal, not that there is no risk, there is always risk more so in our case, also vaccinations are not 100% protection either.
All said that shoes are the biggest worry, hands and clothes are washed but shoes rarely. Dip Shoes in bleach water solution and spreading it is unlikely
3 suggested that only by stepping in a pile of feces (which I know the kids did after inspecting their shoes) and not cleaning our shoes or surfaces afterwards would we bring enough home to infect a puppy, others said much less is needed.
Most vets were matter of fact about it, stating several times that it is everywhere and unavoidable.
About half the vets said to not allow puppy to go outside in the dirt until full screenings. Concrete that is cleaned is okay, dirt and grass is a problem to clean.
All agreed there should have been some warning, and we should not have been allowed to go there unless we knew what we were getting into.
 
Overall properly cleaning our home and limiting exposure will keep a new puppy safe, the fact we called and are proactive unlike most means we are unlikely to have any more risk than anyone else in fact probably less risk because we are aware and taking steps to protect any animals we bring home or come in contact with. A pet would be safe to bring home, after cleaning shoes, car and clothing and not allowing them outside until full screening is complete. Even visiting new puppies would be safe with proper care. Do not visit more than one place a day. Be sure to clean vehicle, lay plastic down for shoes (we have plastic liners) and stay away from any urine, feces or regurgitation. Keep puppy away from sources until third screen some said second, one said first set of shots and their fine. All said that protection is not a guarantee and a dog with compromised health at any age is just as at risk as a puppy. 


*Vet assistants/secretaries opinions:*


Some were alarmed not all but some were extreme in their reaction 
3 out 5 were mad at the rescue for not being more diligent
2 said we should never bring a puppy to our house and suggested getting an older dog, one said year old or more, another said just get a cat...both said maybe you should talk to the vet.
One of the above two suggested that we dispose of our clothes, shoes, replace carpets, rugs etc throughout the house and remove soil and landscaping from the yard...wow really?
All said bleach and water clean up kills the virus making the above statement excessive 
Some said it lasts a year others 3 others 6 and one said 10 years (the remove your carpet person)
Some said spray the yard others said it won’t matter
Most after a few minutes refereed me to the vet when my questions became direct and specific.
 Overall they had a general sense of severity and fear but not many had a specific idea of what. how, when and where. A few had recommendations that echo most of the vets comments and a few had very extreme reactions with little constructive advice. Their opinions and details varied widely and consistency was only found among two and after being transferred to a vet. Two were so mad that I could barely keep the line of questions straight. Understandably there is a visceral reaction from some, but gaining consensus among them was difficult at best.


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## llombardo

So I can understand your anger but Im not understanding why you just don't take one of the pups like you originally planned? I don't think I've ever seen a dog that survived parvo have issues down the road. They are fighters and survivors. So if that pup is still on the table, why not?


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## 8lbcalico

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for the thorough explaination.
> 
> I see several people here tell new puppy owners it's ok to take your not fully vaccinated puppy to warehouse stores or "places where it seems not a lot of dogs frequent". Not good....


You're very welcome! I'm so sorry you had to deal with this, so glad your puppies made it through! Knowing what I know right now: DO NOT let puppies around any sources, at least limit them as much as possible until they are FULLY screened at 15 to 18 weeks PERIOD.

We thought for a few weeks that we would never be able to bring a puppy home. Conducting this research has allowed us to understand what we were up against, calmed us down, relieved some of our anger and set my will in motion to ensure others do not unwittingly expose puppies to this horrendous disease.

I'm in no way on a mission to hurt, harm or damage the rescue community, I think it is a great and absolute necessary thing. We wanted a rescue. We just believe that something needs to be said, and wanted varying opinions on, even those that seem in opposition to our own thoughts. And advice on what to do.


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## 8lbcalico

llombardo said:


> Im not understanding why you just don't take one of the pups like you originally planned?


We literally had no idea what we were dealing with. After recovering from losing our 12 year old GSD to congestive heart failure we did not want our children (or us) to have to undergo the loss of a family member again. It was especially hard on our 9 year old to see his buddy succumb to that over the 3 months when it was really hammering him and more so when it got really bad in the last 2 weeks.

Our initial reaction was to pass on them. Our family vet confirmed "if you have not fallen in love with them yet, walk away, there is potential for lifelong GI problems".


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## viking

Lol! I didn't bother reading what the secretaries had to say about it. Kinda sounds like much ado about darn near nothing to me. The key take away is: its ubiquitous. Take normal precautions.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> The key take away is: its ubiquitous. Take normal precautions.


I would assume then that you have not read the rest. Ubiquitous, yes, in concentrations like this in an area where contraction was confirmed not so common.

But what is your opinion on saying something to the local shelters that provide the rescue with their dogs? Or steps you would take to correct an obvious flaw?


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> Lol! I didn't bother reading what the secretaries had to say about it.


Not that parvo is funny but the reactions from some of them where in fact pretty funny, I did find myself getting frustrated though and seeking only a vet call back after the first 5.

Literally remove a foot of soil from a half acre was a reasonable solution to one of them. Tear out our carpet and trash our clothes and shoes, might want to burn them I said to this one and she agreed lol.


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## 8lbcalico

The need to know what to do has some urgency as these puppies are still available. I'm sure unwitting people like us are still being taken to this home, how many go directly to another place to view puppies after, on the same day without cleaning? How many have no idea that simply by walking in the puppies play area are unknowingly and potentially transferring the disease? We did after all. Is it not my responsibility as much as the counselor to do something, somehow, some way, inform people now that I know?


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## Fodder

resolutions - some of which may or may not already be planned or in place.

current: perform home visits prior, inform potential adopters before the showing that the pups are survivors of parvo, continue to show pups in the home that they're in but on a concrete area that can be disinfected, perhaps provide surgical room shoe covers, narrow down applicants to the degree of a higher chance of adoption.

future: place adult dogs only in that foster home.

parvo is nasty, but dogs and puppies are exposed to it all the time. strong immune systems build up defense to it... developing immune systems as in puppies are naturally higher risk but they will be exposed to it as well, it's inevitable. precautions is all we can do. I really don't think the rescue failed in any major way - seems like that but honestly there aren't too many full proof options.


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## viking

I think Fodder's comment sums it up pretty well.


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## 8lbcalico

Perhaps I will suggest these things to the rescue and local humane society. Doing nothing seems the wrong course. I thank you all for your opinions and experiences with this. I appreciate all sides of this, both inline and in opposition to my own position.


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## Sabis mom

Having dealt with Parvo, and living in an area that has had an outbreak that literally devastated the local shelters, I get the serious nature of it. 
That said, long term effects are not all that common. In essence if these pups survived it, they are your lowest risk. My Dane got Parvo at 8 months old, having had all her vaccines. The vet bill was horrendous, and we almost lost her but the only noticeable effect was that she essentially stopped growing. So I had a very leggy, small-100lb -Harlequin Dane. 
And to clarify for you it can be spread by direct or indirect contact with infected cells which are shed generally in the stool. That is what makes it so hard to stop. Every see the scary health shows on how far and how fast fecal matter gets spread around? And the reason you get varying answers on longevity is because we really don't know. This virus is unbelievably difficult to kill, there are several different variations of it, it mutates quite easily and no other virus that I know of can survive as long outside a host. So your vet/vets are correct. At this point it's everywhere.
This is a virus that was first identified in the mid 70's? I believe and had spread around the globe by the late 70's? There has been rampant speculation over the years that it was initially created as a bio weapon.


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## llombardo

8lbcalico said:


> We literally had no idea what we were dealing with. After recovering from losing our 12 year old GSD to congestive heart failure we did not want our children (or us) to have to undergo the loss of a family member again. It was especially hard on our 9 year old to see his buddy succumb to that over the 3 months when it was really hammering him and more so when it got really bad in the last 2 weeks.
> 
> Our initial reaction was to pass on them. Our family vet confirmed "if you have not fallen in love with them yet, walk away, there is potential for lifelong GI problems".


I think that one of those pups are your safest bet, especially with what your dealing with at the moment. It's either that or wait the time period for it to go away, especially outside. I worked at the vet during one of the worst parvo outbreaks there was where I lived. I seen plenty of sick dogs and I had to go home to my own. At first I was scared, but I made sure that I used every precaution to keep mine safe. I had to worry about me bringing it home and the neighborhood itself. Never had a problem. I've brought dogs home with my dogs and had no clue they had parvo. They played together and everything and my dogs were fine--it was scary though. 

I can't think of one dog that I know of that survived parvo that had problems later, I can't say that I've ever heard a vet even say that? I disagree with your vet on that one.


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## WateryTart

I'm sorry this happened to you - best of luck going forward. I hope this can be resolved in a way that helps make things safer for future litters of pups passing through the shelter/rescue.


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## viking

"There has been rampant speculation over the years that it was initially created as a bio weapon."


Its come to this.


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## 8lbcalico

It is really unfortunate that this particular counselor put us through this. I know those pups are still being shown at the same property. I wonder now if they are informing people prior to visiting and showing them in a way to minimize the spread.

FYI we have move on from these pups, not going back to this rescue, not happy I had to bathe my home in bleach either.

Thank god we did not bring this to other liters or bring another pup home without knowing what we were exposing them to. A matter of fact comment in passing was all we were given and had we not looked further we could have done serious damage.

My take is still, this was highly irresponsible.


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## Stonevintage

Did you call the Humane Society today?


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## Jax08

Call the HS for what purpose? To say that a rescue had a litter come down with parvo (common) and that 6 weeks after that fact they didn't inform a potential adopter? 

What law was broken? What is the HS supposed to do about it? Were the dogs in filth? Without water? Without shelter? Without food? Neglected?


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## Stonevintage

Jax08 said:


> Call the HS for what purpose? To say that a rescue had a litter come down with parvo (common) and that 6 weeks after that fact they didn't inform a potential adopter?
> 
> What law was broken? What is the HS supposed to do about it? Were the dogs in filth? Without water? Without shelter? Without food? Neglected?


Settle down Jax - the reasons to call them specifically were discussed last night. There is some possible help there. Take a minute to read the posts......


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## Jax08

Stonevintage said:


> Settle down Jax - the reasons to call them specifically were discussed last night. There is some possible help there. Take a minute to read the posts......


You're a peach.

First, don't tell me to settle down. I'm not remotely upset. Amused by all this hype for sure. Second, I have read the thread. My questions are legit. There is no legal reason for the HS or AC to get involved unless any of those circumstances are happening.


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## dogfaeries

Just wanted to say that years ago I had a Dobe puppy (vaccinated) that got parvo. She lived to be 14 and a half (very old for a Dobe) and never had any issues down the road from the parvo.


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## Stonevintage

Jax08 said:


> You're a peach.
> 
> First, don't tell me to settle down. I'm not remotely upset. Amused by all this hype for sure. Second, I have read the thread. My questions are legit. There is no legal reason for the HS or AC to get involved unless any of those circumstances are happening.


You're a lemon.

There was no mention of calling AC. There was a mention of contacting the Humane Society only for the reason that the rescue may be an affiliate. The only mention was of the possibility that the Humane Society could provide a list of suggestions to improve practices at the rescue that could help reduce transfer of contagious diseases in the future. Fodder made a list of what that might look like - I'm sure they have one that could help.


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## selzer

Ok, you went over and you and the kids touched and played with some puppies that had recovered from parvo, in an area where they had defecated. 

So, maybe there were some parvovirus on your shoes, or the kids shoes. 

Yeah, it may be irresponsible. And yes, on can bring parvo home on their shoes.

But you have cleaned your shoes with bleach water, and everywhere you might have walked. Good. Probably, you did not have any of the germ on you, and did not transfer it to your house. But you went ahead and cleaned it, to be double safe. 

All I would do is make sure that the bitch you get your puppy from is one that has been vaccinated for parvo prior to the litter coming to be, so that she would have the immunity and pass it on to her puppies. 

If the puppy has its first set of shots a couple of days before you bring him home, then there is yet a possibility that the bitch's immunity did not wear off, and the puppy is not necessarily immune on its own, at some point between then and the second and third shots. I think the possibility is remote that your puppy will contract this at this point. The parvo pup did not live at your home and did not poop on your lawn. 

Did you bleach the inside of your car as well? Because puppy paws get everywhere. 

I wouldn't be happy that they said nothing about it, but I wouldn't make a federal case over it. And no, rescues aren't overseen by anyone. The only agency, is the IRS. And last I heard, parvo outbreaks are not going to challenge the not-for-profit status of the rescue. I am curious as to how much the puppies were going for though.


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## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> You're a lemon.
> 
> There was no mention of calling AC. There was a mention of contacting the Humane Society only for the reason that the rescue may be an affiliate. The only mention was of the possibility that the Humane Society could provide a list of suggestions to improve practices at the rescue that could help reduce transfer of contagious diseases in the future. Fodder made a list of what that might look like - I'm sure they have one that could help.


Yep, Michelle doesn't live all that far away from me, and out here (on this side of the Ohio/Pa border) the humane society (local) can be pretty much used interchangeably with shelter, or even AC, though we do have a dog warden for AC, who works kind of closely with the local humane society, and houses strays in the shelter (privately owned and operated, not necessarily called the humane society). Also, our shelter has a terrible record with parvo, and if anyone could give them pointers, it would be a good thing. And, oftentimes, the shelters/humane societies do not work well with rescues, they seem to almost compete sometimes. 

Our shelter does hold GSDs for rescue, and does post available dogs on petfinder, so that isn't necessarily universal.

In any case, you fruits ought to be nice or we might all get squashed into a pulp.


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## Stonevintage

LOL!

The Humane Society where I'm at works very closely with the various rescues as they are a non-kill shelter. Last year 320 out of 344 dogs taken in placed in homes. It is a thriving community of many volunteers and the "pipeline" is very active. They share information and work with one common interest.

When the (I think it was distemper) problem hit here last Summer - it affected the whole region. There was chaos and one of the Vet schools came forward to advise protocol for isolation and containment. This information was passed to anyone and everyone that believed they may have been in an environment to transfer the disease.

Two of our local vet offices published in the paper offering free vaccination clinics to all individuals who may have had pets exposed or were in an area of contamination. It was a community effort. The coordinator of this effort was The Humane Society. 

As it goes, we can only speak from our experiences. All we were talking about is to make one phone call to the HS and that might be enough to get some extra precautions put in place.......


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## Magwart

If you have a protocol suggestion, ask to speak to the head of the rescue. If you're really angry, send a letter to the rescue's board of directors. Then move on. 

One possible unintended consequence that will result from all this fuss about something that's everywhere in the environment: rescues in your area may choose to let sick pups die in shelters and not fool with trying to save them in the future. That's a pretty realistic outcome from a board of directors focused on risk management in response to this kind of complaint.

I hope the rescue instead chooses to stop allowing applicants into foster homes. I don't actually know a single rescue that allows this. Is this common in some places?


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## Stonevintage

Magwart said:


> If you have a protocol suggestion, ask to speak to the head of the rescue. If you're really angry, send a letter to the rescue's board of directors. Then move on.
> 
> One possible unintended consequence that will result from all this fuss about something that's everywhere in the environment: rescues in your area may choose to let sick pups die in shelters and not fool with trying to save them in the future. That's a pretty realistic outcome from a board of directors focused on risk management in response to this kind of complaint.


I find that a very interesting point of view. You are comparing the risk of exposure from a very recently infected litter (and immediate area) to "something that's all over the environment" anyway......

and the only reason you want to keep it "under the rug" is because it can cause a knee jerk reaction due to risk management concerns????

Well, I see your point - and I can see why this is swept under the rug. I can also see that it's not right to deceive the public in this way. I believe you have many years experience and are telling the honest truth. That said -
I will never recommend anyone to rescues or HS because they have the attitude that "it's everywhere - so what!). 

If the simplest precautions can't be taken in an area with very recent active disease - they should be shut down. It's everywhere - so why bother - amazing.....


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## viking

Why not just call the rescue yourselves and deliver the information you feel they need? If the objective is to improve matters and this information would do so, why invoke an outside entity to deliver the communication? There's no compelling reason to call in an outside entity and it will convey the notion of invoking a higher authority with punitive powers. If your objective is more punitive in nature, even if only an empty threat, I'd rethink the whole thing.

I don't know a lot about rescue operations but I imagine they're run on a budget with pretty thin margins with a lot of volunteer assistance. A heavy handed approach to a minor issue may do much more harm than good.


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## selzer

I am going to go a little further than Viking. Parvo is awful. Most pups that contract it die. You have to go through a lot of care and a lot of expense to pull a litter through it, or a puppy through it, and then your area is contaminated. So, bringing another litter in, is not a good idea, for years. 

So, while it may be better for the person to have told you first, it does not change the fact that she spent a lot of her own money and a lot of time caring for those puppies to get them over the horrible disease. 

Calling in authorities really would be smacking her for saving those puppies.

If you must, call her and tell her that you wished she would have told her about the parvo before you came over. That's fair.


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## Magwart

I didn't say why bother. I suggested she contact the person most likely to consider her suggestions. I know of HS as animal control in some places and as private shelters in others, and neither one would want to be involved. Stone, I'm not getting your level of emotion in this thread -- you were kind of angry with Michelle, and now you're calling for shutting down a rescue. 

There's so much parvo everywhere though you'd be shutting down parks and half the city too if you want to prevent people from ever getting it on their shoes. The OP has engaged in very good decontamination protocol. If I walked through a shelter with suspected parvo, I'd come home and do what she did. What's left to do other than ask the rescue to not show these pups in that place?

Why wouldn't you want her to be making suggestions regarding operational concerns to the people who can implement them? Otherwise, what's the real purpose? Shutting down the rescue? Getting the foster family's heads on pikes? 

As I said, in my world, applicants don't come to foster homes for any reason. That's honestly really strange to me. _That _would be a useful operational change.


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## llombardo

I sat at the humans society with Robyn waiting to get Mudnite when they brought in a while liter of pups with parvo. They had no protocol. They brought out a mop and mopped the floor. They didn't even blink because it probably happens daily.


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## Stonevintage

Jax08 said:


> Call the HS for what purpose? To say that a rescue had a litter come down with parvo (common) and that 6 weeks after that fact they didn't inform a potential adopter?
> 
> What law was broken? What is the HS supposed to do about it? Were the dogs in filth? Without water? Without shelter? Without food? Neglected?




All that the OP, Fodder and I were trying to do last night in our posts amongst each other was trying to figure out a way that protocol might be changed so this scenario doesn't happen again. Yes, the OP was initially very upset but not in the later posts. Has anyone read them?

They were trying to help. Enter - the posse - you can't because, it won't work because - you'll do more harm than good because....
It doesn't work that way in our area because.... negative, negative, negative.

Yea, that upsets me. Sorry your personal experience has jaded you so much. The rest of us will keep trying to do the right thing and when we see where improvements can be made - we're going to say something and not be cowed down because "oh, it might stir things up" "oh, it might cause more harm than good" That just perpetuates the wrongs. 

IMO - there's nothing wrong with simple precautions and if that causes a shake up - sad but no more complacency or excuses. No one's asked to move mountains here. Why the big upset on your part?


----------



## selzer

Saving a litter of parvo puppies is kind of like moving mountains. 

In my shelter, they have been known to euthanize all the dogs in the shelter because of a parvo outbreak. All of them. 200 dogs. dead. That is their protocol. Adults and puppies. Even if some of them might have been vaccinated, are not sick. Doesn't matter.

That is how bad this disease is. And the rescue people did pull the puppies through it. Our shelter could not have financed it. So they put them down. I wouldn't want to smack someone who did that. It really is a smack in the face to call authorities on something for this.


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> Saving a litter of parvo puppies is kind of like moving mountains.
> 
> In my shelter, they have been known to euthanize all the dogs in the shelter because of a parvo outbreak. All of them. 200 dogs. dead. That is their protocol. Adults and puppies. Even if some of them might have been vaccinated, are not sick. Doesn't matter.
> 
> That is how bad this disease is. And the rescue people did pull the puppies through it. Our shelter could not have financed it. So they put them down. I wouldn't want to smack someone who did that. It really is a smack in the face to call authorities on something for this.


Where was it ever suggested to call authorities?


----------



## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> Saving a litter of parvo puppies is kind of like moving mountains.
> 
> In my shelter, they have been known to euthanize all the dogs in the shelter because of a parvo outbreak. All of them. 200 dogs. dead. That is their protocol. Adults and puppies. Even if some of them might have been vaccinated, are not sick. Doesn't matter.
> 
> That is how bad this disease is. And the rescue people did pull the puppies through it. Our shelter could not have financed it. So they put them down. I wouldn't want to smack someone who did that. It really is a smack in the face to call authorities on something for this.


In your area they kill 200 dogs with a parvo outbreak. I Magworts area - "it's everywhere - nothing to be done about it" business as usual?

In my area - that doesn't happen. There is every reason to take precautions and no reason not to unless you are convinced - it's no use, there's no hope, woe is us - I am very happy to say that the outlook and coordinated action taken in responsible communities is different. Quality of life and the fight to maintain it - differs from city to city.


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## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> Where was it ever suggested to call authorities?


 
The OP did, who do they report to?


----------



## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> In your area they kill 200 dogs with a parvo outbreak. I Magworts area - "it's everywhere - nothing to be done about it" business as usual?
> 
> In my area - that doesn't happen. There is every reason to take precautions and no reason not to unless you are convinced - it's no use, there's no hope, woe is us - I am very happy to say that the outlook and coordinated action taken in responsible communities is different. Quality of life and the fight to maintain it - differs from city to city.


 We are not a city. Our county does not have a shelter. The government gives us no money for running a shelter. We are a poor community, and that is what they do. They kill the whole shelter off. So much for no-kill shelters. 

Gets over-crowded, and then disease, and then every one gets euthanized and they start over.


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> We are not a city. Our county does not have a shelter. The government gives us no money for running a shelter. We are a poor community, and that is what they do. They kill the whole shelter off. So much for no-kill shelters.
> 
> Gets over-crowded, and then disease, and then every one gets euthanized and they start over.


And this is not the way it happens everywhere. Your experience is different than others. Doomsaying to everyone because that's your county's situation does not mean it's the same everywhere. I told you a little bit about what's going on here. Makes no difference does it? Because you are into your doom and gloom, no hope mantra.

Again, why did all this come out of this post? There was nothing negative here, only trying to find a way to get proper protocol to a rescue that could use some help?

Or, was this just all for the sake of argument, for lack of anything better to do?


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> The OP did, who do they report to?


No - where do you see the OP called the law? I asked tonight if she had contacted the Humane Society.... that's all.....


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## BowWowMeow

Stonevintage: Ever heard the saying, "Not my monkeys, not my circus?" What is your skin in this game? You clearly don't like rescues but this has nothing whatsoever to do with you. So why attack everyone who is offering practical solutions and explanations?

OP some reason "interviewed" a zillion vets (why not just one?) and then came on a gsd board to discuss this instead of speaking directly with the rescue. It seems to me that this would have been the most practical way to address the issue. 

And, Sue, the good news is that nowadays it is not uncommon for puppies to survive parvo. I am very sorry to hear about your local shelter's response though.


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## Stonevintage

BowWowMeow said:


> Stonevintage: Ever heard the saying, "Not my monkeys, not my circus?" What is your skin in this game?
> 
> My "skin in this game" is I have $100,000 going to the Humane Society in my town when I pass. That's been in my will and on their attorney's paperwork for the last 14 years. What's your skin in this game BowWow?


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## viking

Lol, I think we've hit China Syndrome.


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## Jax08

:thinking::headbang:


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## Stevenzachsmom

OP, the best advice has already been given. Report your concerns directly to the rescue. Discussing it here changes nothing. Rescues are independent. Unless they are breaking laws, which require them to be reported for animal neglect, or abuse, there are no other options. In the time you have spent researching this through vets and talking about it here, you could have voiced your concerns to the rescue.


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## RunShepherdRun

The ASPCApro has a tutorial for infection control in foster homes: Infection Control for Foster Homes | ASPCA Professional

OP, maybe you could pass this information with a friendly letter to the rescue, thanking them for saving the pups while also offering your feedback. 

Aspcapro is the division of the ASPCA that develops and provides great practical help to shelters and rescue organizations. There are still shelters and especially rescue organizations that are not aware of the free tools offered to them. Both ASPCA and HSUS have great programs with practical help for rescue organizations and shelters. I have found them enormously helpful.

HSUS also has a team that can deploy to a shelter to train staff and to improve the shelter's procedures, everything from record keeping, community outreach to reduce intake, working with rescue organizations and volunteers, sanitation, etc... The shelter itself needs to request it.

Btw, for anyone it is good practice to take shoes off before entering their home. Parvo and its feline version, Panleuk, are everywhere, Panleuk being also very common among wildlife. Also washing hands first thing when you come home. To reduce the viral load. 

Re reporting: Iff parvo is a reportable disease in a state, then the treating veterinarian will have already reported it. 

In my area, most parvo cases are young inner city pitbulls that have never been vaccinated. I am afraid some of them die without ever having seen a vet. That is why focused community outreach programs are so important - to help with vaccination and s/n clinics, to improve health and to reduce shelter intake.

Selzer, TY for pointing out that this rescue saved the lives of these puppies. As several people already pointed out, it is very costly to the rescue and hard on the foster family. They must have caught it early to get the whole litter through, great job on that. They must have had good practices in the home to get the pups through.


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## Stonevintage

Thank You RunShepherdRun. I just looked through the Humane Society rescue help site. Good stuff.


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## 8lbcalico

Stevenzachsmom said:


> OP, the best advice has already been given...you could have voiced your concerns to the rescue.


I think there is more, see RunShepherdRuns comment. There is tons of good advice in this thread. Information lots of people can put to good use. Lots of things I'm using right now. I am contacting rescues and shelters. Im using the information and advice people are giving here. That is the point.

I know this is a long thread, but I have stated that I've been in contact with the counselor, she was unaware of transmison potential. I talked with her recently and I shared my research with her. She called one vet and determined "no big deal". We all know it is a big deal. I had to take measures to clean my home, I have to restrict puppy access to my yard until full screening. She told me none of this. I had to inform her. But it's NO BIG DEAL right? Yeah okay.

The point of this thread was to see if I was doing enough. I am a reluctant player in all of this now. I cannot sit back and do nothing. I posted in this section in hopes of helping myself, adopters, fosters and maybe even rescues to be more aware of this. I was dragged into this unknowingly and now I'm going to change things, there are problems that need solutions.

Is it not obvious that there are those who have no real understanding of the dangers? Look at some of the responses, oh well, it is what it is, you can't do anything more, it's no big deal, you're wasting your time on this board, your going to hurt the rescue? Really! Wow! The means justify the ends right? Save one dog, kill ten? But we mean well. Nothing I can do, burry head in sand? That is the exact reason why this stuff happens, apparently all the time.

Just the fact that you read this whether you agree or not means you will be more aware and thus, maybe, hopefully, less likely to propagate Parvo. Others have a real interest, a personal interest in helping.

What you, I and others choose to do with this info literally can be the difference between life and death. No joke. Really big deal.


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## 8lbcalico

RunShepherdRun, thank you for a very helpful contribution, another among several throughout this thread. I will most certainly pass this information on.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> Lol, I think we've hit China Syndrome.


Imagine how we felt when we were confronted with not being able to have a puppy in our home or yard as this stuff lasts up to 6 years in soil? We will always have to take special precautions in our yard. There were 6 people that tracked through the infected area then walked my entire property. One had clearly stepped in poo. Significantly more risk here than simply going to a dog park, or a walk down the street.

*BowWowMeow*: It is fair to question my intentions, you don't know me from Adam:
1. Bringing this to a GSD forum? It was after all a GSD rescue we were working with. Plus I was here during the loss of our previous GSD, reading about how others dealt with heart disease, loss and helping children understand.
2. I needed to know how to impart change in a rescue / shelter organization.
3. I wanted reasonable, practical solutions!
4. A zillion vets meh? It was 8. Calling numerous vets was necessary due to the fact that the first two I talked with had polar opposite opinions and their secretaries were obviously insane. 

*Selzer*: Does the means justify the end? Does placing dogs in good homes take precedence over the safety of other shelters, rescues, breeders, families, their dogs and puppies? I think there are many who disagree, I also believe unfortunately there are those that believe the means are justified and yet even more that are simply uninformed.

Do I want to impart some meaningful change, why not? It's obvious there is need. Do I want to shut down a rescue, cause the death of hundreds of dogs and set the shelters and rescue community back or punish them as a whole? Slezer? Really? Where does one even get that from these posts? That is a knee jerk reaction to protect status quo. Please note that I have not disclosed my location nor the name of the rescue and most importantly the counselors name for a reason. None of which would serve any good and only damage their ability to place dogs. NOT my intention! 

*BowWow*: Skin in the game? Stone has first hand knowledge of parvo having pups that survived. How about lives in the game! Bringing a puppy to my home now, puts MORE lives in the game. Being complacent and oh well, it is no big deal, puts yet even more lives in the game. Isn't that obvious? 

Stating that parvo is survivable, there are no long term affects, no big deal here...is evidence that people have not been informed about the disease. 

Parvo is:
Highly contagious, highly transferable, resilient and extremely deadly. Just a tiny bit of feces on your shoes can contain 10s of millions of cells, it only takes 1,000 cells to infect a puppy or an ADULT dog with a compromised immune system. Dogs that have had Parvo are NOT immune to the disease and can contract it again. In fact they are at higher risk of other disease as now their immune system has been compromised. Lasting affects can include GI problems, heart problems from some strains of parvo, congestive heart failure, brain damage due to the high fever and dehydration, temperament problems along with compromised immune systems. DO NOT kid yourselves Parvo is nasty! Do not brush this off as no big deal. It is.


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## llombardo

If parvo is in the area, the risk is everywhere you walk. Do you clean your shoes with bleach every time you go for a walk anywhere? The only difference here is that you know for a fact it was where you were, but the reality is that it can be anywhere and everywhere, you just don't know it.


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## shepherdmom

Magwart said:


> I hope the rescue instead chooses to stop allowing applicants into foster homes. I don't actually know a single rescue that allows this. Is this common in some places?


Yes it is common in Nevada. I don't know of any rescue here that doesn't allow applicants into the foster homes.


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## selzer

8lbcalico said:


> Imagine how we felt when we were confronted with not being able to have a puppy in our home or yard as this stuff lasts up to 6 years in soil? We will always have to take special precautions in our yard. There were 6 people that tracked through the infected area then walked my entire property. One had clearly stepped in poo. Significantly more risk here than simply going to a dog park, or a walk down the street.
> 
> *BowWowMeow*: It is fair to question my intentions, you don't know me from Adam:
> 1. Bringing this to a GSD forum? It was after all a GSD rescue we were working with. Plus I was here during the loss of our previous GSD, reading about how others dealt with heart disease, loss and helping children understand.
> 2. I needed to know how to impart change in a rescue / shelter organization.
> 3. I wanted reasonable, practical solutions!
> 4. A zillion vets meh? It was 8. Calling numerous vets was necessary due to the fact that the first two I talked with had polar opposite opinions and their secretaries were obviously insane.
> 
> *Selzer*: Does the means justify the end? Does placing dogs in good homes take precedence over the safety of other shelters, rescues, breeders, families, their dogs and puppies? I think there are many who disagree, I also believe unfortunately there are those that believe the means are justified and yet even more that are simply uninformed.
> 
> Do I want to impart some meaningful change, why not? It's obvious there is need. Do I want to shut down a rescue, cause the death of hundreds of dogs and set the shelters and rescue community back or punish them as a whole? Slezer? Really? Where does one even get that from these posts? That is a knee jerk reaction to protect status quo. Please note that I have not disclosed my location nor the name of the rescue and most importantly the counselors name for a reason. None of which would serve any good and only damage their ability to place dogs. NOT my intention!
> 
> *BowWow*: Skin in the game? Stone has first hand knowledge of parvo having pups that survived. How about lives in the game! Bringing a puppy to my home now, puts MORE lives in the game. Being complacent and oh well, it is no big deal, puts yet even more lives in the game. Isn't that obvious?
> 
> Stating that parvo is survivable, there are no long term affects, no big deal here...is evidence that people have not been informed about the disease.
> 
> Parvo is:
> Highly contagious, highly transferable, resilient and extremely deadly. Just a tiny bit of feces on your shoes can contain 10s of millions of cells, it only takes 1,000 cells to infect a puppy or an ADULT dog with a compromised immune system. Dogs that have had Parvo are NOT immune to the disease and can contract it again. In fact they are at higher risk of other disease as now their immune system has been compromised. Lasting affects can include GI problems, heart problems from some strains of parvo, congestive heart failure, brain damage due to the high fever and dehydration, temperament problems along with compromised immune systems. DO NOT kid yourselves Parvo is nasty! Do not brush this off as no big deal. It is.


 
Sorry I bothered to respond. It's true, I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## 8lbcalico

selzer said:


> Sorry I bothered to respond. It's true, I don't have a dog in this fight.


No need to be sorry, I'm simply trying to help people understand. Your contributions help, all contributions help. You may think I'm attacking you, the shelters, the rescues or the counselor, but that simply is not true. I want to inform and make people aware.


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## Lilie

8lbcalico said:


> Stating that parvo is survivable, there are no long term affects, no big deal here...is evidence that people have not been informed about the disease.


You also share part of the burden as you were actively searching for a puppy. You should have done your homework beforehand and had knowledge of Parvo as it is a health risk for all puppies. This should not have been something you weren't aware of before you started actively searching (going onto other properties etc. and allowing others onto yours).

I had an 8 month old, fully vetted Aussie male that went to my vet clinic for eye surgery. A small piece of skin had to be removed (due to an injury) and it was too close to the eye ball to remove without surgery. 

Three days later he was showing signs of illness. I took him back to the vet and he was dx with Parvo. While he was fighting for his life at the clinic, I learned from the vet tech (who was a neighbor of my sister) that the clinic was trying to save a litter of Doberman puppies who had Parvo. They had placed my dog in the same area after surgery to recover. At this point I'm past $1000.00 of vet bills and my 8 month old puppy was losing his fight. 

I pulled my dog, paid my bill and with the help of my equine vet, I was able to treat my dog at home and he lived to be 13 years old. No long term affects. 

I did speak out but quickly learned that there is an inherent risk that is taken when you go to the vet with your animal. I suppose the same can be said when you go to a shelter or allow those folks onto your property. You are the best advocate for your animals even if they are your future animals.


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## Stonevintage

Lilie said:


> You also share part of the burden as you were actively searching for a puppy. You should have done your homework beforehand and had knowledge of Parvo as it is a health risk for all puppies. This should not have been something you weren't aware of before you started actively searching (going onto other properties etc. and allowing others onto yours).


I'm just trying to visualize what this would look like. A family of 5 Changing out surgical masks, gowns, gloves and foot protection every time they stepped out of their car to see a litter. A burn barrel for the discarded set and on to the next stop. This because you can't trust the shelter or breeder won't knowingly expose you to contaminated areas. 

I don't think that any of the basic new puppy owner vaccination explanations go into detail about surface transmission variables with each disease. So, the fault for transferring a disease from a shelter or breeder would be partially on the person shopping for a puppy.... they should have known better?


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## Lilie

Stonevintage said:


> I'm just trying to visualize what this would look like. A family of 5 Changing out surgical masks, gowns, gloves and foot protection every time they stepped out of their car to see a litter. A burn barrel for the discarded set and on to the next stop. This because you can't trust the shelter or breeder won't knowingly expose you to contaminated areas.
> 
> I don't think that any of the basic new puppy owner vaccination explanations go into detail about surface transmission variables with each disease. So, the fault for transferring a disease from a shelter or breeder would be partially on the person shopping for a puppy.... they should have known better?


Why, yes some breeders do! Especially when they think the potential buyers are out kicking tires. 

I suppose if the shelter has a big billboard of a unicorn farting stardust and jumping a rainbow, then folks can rest assured there isn't any risk of illness when you have over 100 dogs and/or cats in one facility. 

And yes the buyer should know better. If they've done their due diligence before deciding on a breed, they should know all the health risks. I would think before they begin jabbing their puppies full of vaccines, they'd wonder at some point what it is they are vaccinating for.


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## Stevenzachsmom

OP, before you even posted your thread, did you bother to do a search? Do you have any idea the sheer number of Parvo threads that have been previously posted? You feel a great need to educate, yet you are preaching to the choir.


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## Jenny720

It's a shame because if the rescue counselor was up front and told the op about the puppies prior to the visit -that pups were survival victims of parvo- as they should have as knowing the risk and taking precautions then the op would have possibly brought the pup home as she would of now trusted the rescue counselor and what she and vet had to say about the pups. It is a good thread for both sides of the coin.


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## 8lbcalico

Stevenzachsmom: In fact I did yes! You cannot tell by the sheer volume of information I have put fourth that I have done just a _weee tiny _bit of research? I've spent hours here learning.

May I ask if this is indeed the "choir" why is it that some people find it hard to believe a rescue counselor could have done something wrong? How is it that you believe that the policies in place are working when we were brought to this place unknowingly? Why do some get so defensive when something is obviously NOT working? Most importantly how in gods name is it that people in the "Choir" still think that it was "no big deal" for us to be taken there?


Lilie: I agree I have a responsibility, that is why I'm here. I hope you can see that. I take no blame for this incident as I was given absolutely no choice in the matter. I was informed of the conditions only after we had been exposed.


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## 8lbcalico

Jenny720 said:


> It's a shame because if the rescue counselor was up front and told the op about the puppies prior to the visit -that pups were survival victims of parvo- as they should have as knowing the risk and taking precautions then the op would have possibly brought the pup home as she would of now trusted the rescue counselor and what she and vet had to say about the pups. It is a good thread for both sides of the coin.


OMG THANK YOU! Yes good thread, both sides, lets be better than we are! I vote Jenny for Choir Master!


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## Stevenzachsmom

8lbcalico said:


> Stevenzachsmom: In fact I did yes! You cannot tell by the sheer volume of information I have put fourth that I have done just a _weee tiny _bit of research? *I've spent hours here learning.*
> 
> May I ask if this is indeed the "choir" why is it that some people find it hard to believe a rescue counselor could have done something wrong? How is it that you believe that the policies in place are working when we were brought to this place unknowingly? Why do some get so defensive when something is obviously NOT working? Most importantly how in gods name is it that people in the "Choir" still think that it was "no big deal" for us to be taken there?
> 
> Lilie: I agree I have a responsibility, that is why I'm here. I hope you can see that. *I take no blame for this incident as I was given absolutely no choice in the matter. I was informed of the conditions only after we had been exposed.*


But did you do the research BEFORE you went visiting puppies? If you had, you would know there is always a risk. And perhaps you would have taken some responsibility and precautions.

Some of us are only trying to say that it is impossible to know when/where one might come in contact with Parvo. When dealing with puppies, one must always be prepared.


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## Lilie

Stevenzachsmom said:


> But did you do the research BEFORE you went visiting puppies? If you had, you would know there is always a risk. And perhaps you would have taken some responsibility and precautions.
> 
> Some of us are only trying to say that it is impossible to know when/where one might come in contact with Parvo. When dealing with puppies, one must always be prepared.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## llombardo

You could bring a vaccinated 6 month old to the pet store and the toy he picks up could have just been played with by a pup that has parvo...you would never know it but it's there. Just because that 6 month old is vaccinated does not mean it won't get parvo. Most people wouldn't even think about that.


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## Jack's Dad

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Stevenzachsmom*  
_But did you do the research BEFORE you went visiting puppies? If you had, you would know there is always a risk. And perhaps you would have taken some responsibility and precautions.

Some of us are only trying to say that it is impossible to know when/where one might come in contact with Parvo. When dealing with puppies, one must always be prepared._



Lilie said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Jan and Lilie, glad to see your posts. I enjoy both of you. However I'm not sure how anyone researches parvo in advance.
> 
> I believe a breeder, rescue or shelter should acknowledge that an active case had been on and around their property and let the would be owner decide if they wish to risk it.
> 
> Yes you could get parvo anywhere but most people would not risk exposure if they knew about it in advance.


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## Jack's Dad

llombardo said:


> You could bring a vaccinated 6 month old to the pet store and the toy he picks up could have just been played with by a pup that has parvo...you would never know it but it's there. Just because that 6 month old is vaccinated does not mean it won't get parvo. Most people wouldn't even think about that.


Yes but if the store had recently a known active case shouldn't they warn customers.


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## Stonevintage

We all play the numbers. If I swim in the surf, I may get munched by a shark.
If I swim into a shark feeding frenzy, with blood in the water - my odds of getting munched increase dramatically. 

The risks, though present in both cases are not equal.


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## llombardo

Jack's Dad said:


> Yes but if the store had recently a known active case shouldn't they warn customers.


How are they going to know? The pup is there getting a collar, bowl and a new toy. Goes home and a couple days later the symptoms start showing. Most people are not going to call the pet store and say hey we were there the other day and now the pup has parvo. Even if they did its to late for all those others that came in within the last two days without a clue. That's how it's spread and it hits different areas. It can hit hard and fast with no known starting point. There are different strains and even though younger dogs and seniors are more prone to it, middle age dogs can get certain strains.

It doesn't even have to be a toy that was played with--what if the pup had an accident in the store? They don't use bleach and the next dog smells the area, licks it's nose and there is another way it's spread...

The thing with parvo is that is doesn't show up right away and a dog can be carrying it, infecting many areas and by the time it displays symptoms every other dog that has been where that dog was can carry it to the next area, etc.


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## Jack's Dad

llombardo said:


> How are they going to know? The pup is there getting a collar, bowl and a new toy. Goes home and a couple days later the symptoms start showing. Most people are not going to call the pet store and say hey we were there the other day and now the pup has parvo. Even if they did its to late for all those others that came in within the last two days without a clue. That's how it's spread and it hits different areas. It can hit hard and fast with no known starting point. There are different strains and even though younger dogs and seniors are more prone to it, middle age dogs can get certain strains.


They wouldn't know but the rescue and foster apparently did and should have warned potential adopters. 
You can't warn someone if you don't know yourself but if you know then IMO you have an obligation as an individual, breeder, rescue, etc...


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## llombardo

Jack's Dad said:


> They wouldn't know but the rescue and foster apparently did and should have warned potential adopters.
> You can't warn someone if you don't know yourself but if you know then IMO you have an obligation as an individual, breeder, rescue, etc...


There are lots of dogs that go home with their new owners perfectly healthy and then it hits. If it's not present or showing signs they can't warn anyone. 


The thing is when pups are in rescue (and from what I have seen)the rescue will make them available and usually state that the pups beat parvo, because believe it or not lots of people will think wow what fighters these pups are and they have no problems adopting them out. It's usually included in their bio. Lots of rescues might even ask for donations to help with the costs of vet bills due to a litter of pups having it, At least that is how it is here.


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## Jax08

I don't really think anyone disagrees that the rescue was irresponsible in not notifying the potential adopters before hand. It's just that many of us think the chances of this person's home being infected with parvo is about the same as getting hit by lightning. 

No puppies were at the OP's home ever. The time period for shedding the virus was past if the illness was 6 weeks prior so there would not have been any in the stool. So basically there theoretically could have been parvo on the clothes and shoes of the people from the dirt they walked on but the chances are so minute. The whole premise of the contamination is illogical.


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## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> I don't really think anyone disagrees that the rescue was irresponsible in not notifying the potential adopters before hand. It's just that many of us think the chances of this person's home being infected with parvo is about the same as getting hit by lightning.
> 
> No puppies were at the OP's home ever. The time period for shedding the virus was past if the illness was 6 weeks prior so there would not have been any in the stool. So basically there theoretically could have been parvo on the clothes and shoes of the people from the dirt they walked on but the chances are so minute. The whole premise of the contamination is illogical.


Agree. I would like to see how the pups were advertised through the rescue. At some point on their website, facebook or in the bio I would think its possible they mentioned it. Whether it's from when they first took them in and we're looking for donations or when they updated their health. Rescue groups usually get donations this way for vet bills, because a whole litter had to be expensive. People also like to see updates and are generally happy if the pups make it.


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## viking

Hey 8lbcalico (and you too, Stonevintage)

Your ongoing allegation that those of us less, let's say, 'exercised' about this entire thread are content to "sweep things under the rug", are "uninformed" about the "seriousness" of a pup contracting parvo, are "complacent", etc., etc., etc. is self serving and sanctimonious.

The fact is that you two hurled these allegations merely because some of us were unwilling to jump on the bandwagon of the Horror! of your 'injury'. Everyone agreed that you ought to communicate with the rescue. Some of us did not agree that the punitive measures that you two were advocating were wise or warranted. I, for one, found your tone and attitude to be a gross overreaction. I still do.

If you want to start a parvo awareness campaign focused on best practices for shelters and rescues, terrific! More power to you! Have at it! You want to come running in here with your hair on fire and villainize those who don't share your alarmist and vindictive perspective you're going to get pushback.

How sad you now reject the very pups you were prepared to adopt! After all, as someone else already pointed out and you ignored, those pups have a better chance at being immune to parvo now that they've survived it. After all, adopting those pups would obviate the 6-years-of-contaminated-soil-in-your-yard concern. There's only one explanation: you're really rejecting those poor pups just to punish some rescue/rescue counselor who failed to inform you in a timely enough (for you!) fashion of their medical history! How pathologically and petty! How elitist you must be that you would reject those poor pups just because they had already contracted and survived a disease! People like you aren't fit to have a puppy at all!

See, its easy to impugn someone's character and assign bad motives but that shoe isn't very comfortable on the other foot, is it.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> Your ongoing allegation...


Is that there is a need for change in protocol. 

It is unfortunate you are offended by this position. I make no apologies for my beliefs.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> If you want to start a parvo awareness campaign focused on best practices for shelters and rescues, terrific!


This is a great idea by the way, and I think it is something that can be done easily and would have an impact. Perhaps save some dogs?


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## viking

8lbcalico said:


> Is that there is a need for change in protocol.
> 
> It is unfortunate you are offended by this position. I make no apologies for my beliefs.


A tedious mantra and strawman argument, to boot. No one is offended by best practices.


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## viking

8lbcalico said:


> This is a great idea by the way, and I think it is something that can be done easily and would have an impact. Perhaps save some dogs?


You're welcome.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> A tedious mantra and strawman argument, to boot. No one is offended by best practices.


I'm sorry but perhaps you need to understand what a strawman is, in fact most of your previous post is just that. A means to win an argument or divert attention by defeating an opponent in some other unrelated fashion. Enter my elitist, alarmist, poor puppy neglecting, vengeful ways. Wow, a walking contradiction.

Can we stay on topic please, how to in part meaningful, practical change in a broken system.


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## 8lbcalico

Jax08 said:


> The time period for shedding the virus was past if the illness was 6 weeks prior so there would not have been any in the stool. So basically there theoretically could have been parvo on the clothes and shoes of the people from the dirt they walked on but the chances are so minute. The whole premise of the contamination is illogical.


I'm trying to find more information on this exact thing, how long is the shedding period, how long is it active in the environment. There does not seem to be research done, thus the varying vet opinions of 1 to 6 years in grass and soil, a few months to a year on indoor surfaces.


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## 8lbcalico

llombardo said:


> Agree. I would like to see how the pups were advertised through the rescue.


I'm not sure how I could do this without revealing location, name and other details of the rescue. I fear damaging their ability to place dogs by revealing this.

It was not mentioned on their website, on their profiles, not sure about Facebook.


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## cdwoodcox

At the very least I would call whomever took you there uninformed, and tell them how irresponsible they were. Explain to them the potential for cross contamination if as in this instance a person decides not to take a pup and get one elsewhere. For whatever reason. Maybe they would think to inform the next people coming to look. If they get rude or blow you off like your in the wrong then go to who ever to try and have them removed. At this point they show their total lack of ability to safely work around potential disease carrying animals.


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## Jax08

8lbcalico said:


> I'm trying to find more information on this exact thing, how long is the shedding period, how long is it active in the environment. There does not seem to be research done, thus the varying vet opinions of 1 to 6 years in grass and soil, a few months to a year on indoor surfaces.


Google is your friend. I found several legit sources that cited studies and/or were written by vets on how long the virus is shed in feces after onset of illness.


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## llombardo

In this case the soil is the only issue. It takes about a year to go away and it survives for that year in all weather. Note that this disease is carried by coyotes, foxes and rodents too. 

Canine Parvovirus (parvo) is a highly contagious viral disease that is one of the most common causes of diarrhea in dogs under 6 months of age. It first appeared in the late 1970s, and is one of the most frequent serious dog disease problems encountered in animal shelters. It is reported in coyotes, foxes and wolves and probably affects most, if not all, members of the canine family. Puppies are the most susceptible, and their clinical signs are worsened by concurrent infections with roundworms, other internal intestinal parasites, protozoa (such as Coccidia), viruses or bacteria. Adult dogs can also be affected.



In general, if aggressive therapy is initiated early in the course of the disease, the prognosis for puppies to recover can be excellent, although fatalities do occur. However, the mortality rate for puppies in shelters can be much higher because many shelters cannot diagnose, isolate or treat the cases. As for adult dogs, many become infected but never actually show clinical signs of disease. Rottweilers, Dobermans, pit bulls, German shepherds and Labrador retrievers seem to be at higher risk for the disease.

What Causes Parvovirus
Canine parvovirus is very stable in the environment and very resistant to most disinfectants. It can persist in organic material in the environment for over one year. Another member of this virus family is responsible for causing panleukopenia, more commonly known as distemper, in cats. (This feline parvovirus was present before the strain that affects dogs appeared. In fact, the first vaccination efforts to control canine parvo were made using feline panleukopenia vaccines.)

Different strains of parvovirus have evolved over the years since it was first discovered in dogs in 1978. The current strains infecting dogs in the United States are CPV-2b and CPV-2c, which also can cause illness and have been isolated from cats. In the shelter it is essential to separate dogs from cats, as cats can not only develop illness but also act as a reservoir causing further disease in dogs.

How Parvovirus Is Transmitted
Parvo disease is spread from dog to dog mainly through exposure to contaminated feces. It is also spread through contact with fomites (contaminated objects). Common fomites include hands, instruments, clothing, food and water dishes, toys and bedding. Insects and rodents can also provide a means for disease spread. The virus can remain on a dog's hair coat and serve as a means of transmission long after recovery from clinical disease. The incubation period, or period between exposure to the virus and the appearance of symptoms, is usually 4-6 days. Because the disease may be difficult for the shelter to detect during the incubation period, apparently healthy animals with parvo may be adopted out only to become ill a few days later in their new home, causing heartache for the shelter staff and the new owners.

It is very important to know the shedding pattern of parvovirus in order to design an effective management, diagnostic and prevention strategy. Parvovirus can be shed in the feces 3-4 days after infection with the virus, which is generally before clinical signs of illness appear. The virus will also be shed in the feces for approximately 10-14 days post-recovery from clinical signs of infection.


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## Jax08

> Virus is shed in the feces of infected dogs within 4–5 days of exposure (often before clinical signs develop), throughout the period of illness, and for ~10 days after clinical recovery.


Canine Parvovirus: Diseases of the Stomach and Intestines in Small Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual

Last full review/revision February 2015 by Kelly D. Mitchell, BSc, DVM, DVSc, DACVIM


So I stand by my statement. There was no virus in any feces your children stepped or rolled in and the chances of you contamination your property with parvo virus is akin to getting hit by lightning.


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## Jax08

Viral shedding after vaccine administered
Long-term viremia and fecal shedding in pups after modified-live canine parvovirus vaccination. - PubMed - NCBI


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## Jax08

Parvovirus in wild animals
Canine parvovirus found in wild carnivores in U.S. | Cornell Chronicle


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## Magwart

It's absolutely correct that those ever-present urban coyotes most of us have learned to live with in North America are parvo reservoirs. When they visit the neighborhood on trash night, they may be dropping parvo bombs. Those mystery-piles in the front yard that you've been blaming on the neighbor dog? Err...maybe a coyote visit. 

*84% (!!!) *of the coyotes in a major study conducted in Denver carried parvo antibodies.

Source: Journal of Wildlife Diseases


As for how long dogs shed parvo, the info distributed to shelters and rescues (that's what this is about right?) says 10-14 days after recovery, they're done shedding virus. Example: "The virus will also be shed in the feces for approximately 10-14 days post-recovery from clinical signs of infection." 
Source: Canine Parvovirus (Parvo) | ASPCA Professional


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## shepherdmom

Magwart said:


> It's absolutely correct that those ever-present urban coyotes most of us have learned to live with in North America are parvo reservoirs. When they visit the neighborhood on trash night, they may be dropping parvo bombs. Those mystery-piles in the front yard that you've been blaming on the neighbor dog? Err...maybe a coyote visit.
> 
> *84% (!!!) *of the coyotes in a major study conducted in Denver carried parvo antibodies.
> 
> Source: Journal of Wildlife Diseases
> 
> 
> As for how long dogs shed parvo, the info distributed to shelters and rescues (that's what this is about right?) says 10-14 days after recovery, they're done shedding virus. Example: "The virus will also be shed in the feces for approximately 10-14 days post-recovery from clinical signs of infection."
> Source: Canine Parvovirus (Parvo) | ASPCA Professional


Wow, so even our own yards aren't safe if we have Coyotes around?

You know about a year ago we had an outbreak locally and I heard that one of the local dog parks wasn't safe. For a while they put up signs and warned everyone. Then after a while the outbreak went away and everyone forgot about it. Now once again puppies are back in the dog park and I haven't heard of anyone getting sick. I imagine conditions would have to be absolutely perfect for the virus to actually stick around for 6 years.


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## 8lbcalico

Jax08 said:


> Viral shedding after vaccine administered
> Long-term viremia and fecal shedding in pups after modified-live canine parvovirus vaccination. - PubMed - NCBI


So this means not knowing the strain it is 12 to 22 days for shedding?


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## 8lbcalico

cdwoodcox said:


> At the very least I would call whomever took you there uninformed, and tell them how irresponsible they were.


I have, she is totally open to new information. Which is a great thing, right?

I think putting together some useful precautions from information everyone has been kind enough to share along with some of the research that jax and Llombardo are sharing I will create a flyer/info packet. Not only distribute that to local rescues but to as many as I can find. Maybe I'll get our family vet who is very well respected here to back the distribution and legitimize the effort.


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## Jax08

8lbcalico said:


> So this means not knowing the strain it is 12 to 22 days for shedding?


It means that you are overreacting without any real facts. Even the vaccinated dogs are shedding the virus when vaccinated. Wild animals are shedding the virus. The virus is everywhere. Use common sense.

I'm done with this thread. It's petty and ridiculous and I'm not in the mood. You want something important to think about? Here, this 6 yr old in this video lost her life this week. There is no cure. There is no treatment. There is only a 12-18 month window from diagnosis to death.

Fight DIPG | Help us find a cure for the deadliest childhood brain cancer

Raise awareness on that.


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## RunShepherdRun

8lbcalico, If you are concerned about possible long term GI effects of a parvo survivor (if the pups had the intestinal form of parvo), then you might want to reconsider buying a purebred GSD, a breed very prone to GI issues, esp. to IBD. GSDs have been found to be deficient in Immunoglobulin A, a key factor in their susceptibility to developing IBD and other health issues. Just one publication of many: Total and relative deficiency of gut mucosal IgA in German shepherd dogs demonstrated by faecal analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

Also, if you are concerned about potential long term cardio effects of a parvo survivor (if the pups had the more rare cardiac form of parvo), you could ask what form of parvo they had. You can ask to see the whole vet record before adoption as well. 

Again, the most important precaution to keep viral load at a minimum in a pup's environment is to take shoes off before entering your house and to wash hands immediately before you touch anyone or anything. People who wouldn't put their young pup on the ground for fear of contagion will touch anything at a pet store and go home and pet their puppy. Now if another customer just picked up poop of an infected dog and touched the same toy? Plus the shoes...

Given how often this happens, and how many people spread parvo and panleuk in their homes with what they bring in on their shoes and on their hands, the likelihood of infection through this route does not seem that high, or we would see other levels of infection. But taking these simple precautions is the most effective barrier, and not doing so DOES put a pup at risk.

While I would think it better practice to inform potential adopters about the pups' previous parvo infection, you are going through a level of fear of contagion and upset about the rescue that does not seem warranted imho.

Please also keep in mind that these puppies were treated by a veterinarian or they would not have survived, so the rescue is receiving the advice of a veterinarian.


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## llombardo

Create a Protocol: Parvo | ASPCA Professional


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## 8lbcalico

Magwart said:


> *84% (!!!) *of the coyotes in a major study conducted in Denver carried parvo antibodies.
> 
> Source: Journal of Wildlife Diseases


We have some here, rarely ever see them where I'm at, but they are all over rural areas. Thanks for the information.


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## 8lbcalico

Jax08 said:


> *It means that you are overreacting without any real facts.* Even the vaccinated dogs are shedding the virus when vaccinated. Wild animals are shedding the virus. The virus is everywhere. Use common sense.
> 
> I'm done with this thread. *It's petty and ridiculous* and I'm not in the mood. You want something important to think about? Here, this 6 yr old in this video lost her life this week. There is no cure. There is no treatment. There is only a 12-18 month window from diagnosis to death.
> 
> Fight DIPG | Help us find a cure for the deadliest childhood brain cancer
> 
> Raise awareness on that.


It's too bad you feel this way, I don't feel that an effort to make something better and help inform people is petty. I'm gathering facts right now Jax, it is obvious from talking to numerous vets, breeders, and now even shelters in the last few days that people are more unaware than you may want to believe.


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## 8lbcalico

llombardo said:


> Create a Protocol: Parvo | ASPCA Professional


I used that tool yesterday fromRunShpepherds post, a fairly extensive questionnaire. I think perhaps the ultimate goal with this effort would be to get people to go to the aspca and seek their help in setting up better protocol.


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## Stonevintage

I looked at a few sites yesterday that have published isolation protocol for dogs in quarantine . Everything listed seem fairly easy to do and inexpensive as well.

Yesterday I was getting this image of the family dressed in surgical gowns and gear to go to more than one location to look at litters. 

One of the sites uses a simple 1/30 bleach water "shoe bath" that people walk thru to take care of whatever may have hitched a ride on the bottom of their shoes. I'm wondering if those with litters could make this available to people coming and going (a simple cookie sheet maybe with a little of this solution poured in the bottom (of course away from small children & pets). Or, it would be fairly easy to carry in the car in a recycled jug. Just dump it at the curb when done and on to the next stop. That would keep from having to wipe down the car flooring areas and household flooring. 

I don't know about the hand washing - if a 30/1 bleach mix is ok to rinse hands. I don't think hand sanitizer works for this.


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## LuvShepherds

I didn't read every message so I may be repeating what someone else has said. Parvo is everywhere and is always showing up in shelters. It's so common they can't get rid of it completely. The rescue should have told the OP, but they didn't and now it's done. I would inform the rescue about my feelings and then let it go. You can't do anything about it now. Reporting them is useless because parvo is rampant in shelters. Unvaccinated puppies and elderly dogs are most at risk. Our rescue told us about a Parvo case our previous rescue was exposed to. They quarantined all dogs exposed for a month, nothing showed up and the dogs were adopted out including one I ended up bringing home. We have had multiple dogs here since, including young puppies and no parvo. You can't live your life in fear. Do the best you can and then move on.


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## viking

8lbcalico said:


> I'm sorry but perhaps you need to understand what a strawman is, in fact most of your previous post is just that. A means to win an argument or divert attention by defeating an opponent in some other unrelated fashion. Enter my elitist, alarmist, poor puppy neglecting, vengeful ways. Wow, a walking contradiction.
> 
> Can we stay on topic please, how to in part meaningful, practical change in a broken system.



LOL! Not a contradiction at all but an illustration for your benefit and which was even identified for you in case the irony alone wasn't enough of a clue: 

"See, its easy to impugn someone's character and assign bad motives but that shoe isn't very comfortable on the other foot, is it."

You either have very poor reading comprehension OR you purposefully mislead.

Also, its "impart" not "in part"


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> LOL! Not a contradiction


You're clearly upset about my approach, however the examples you used were infact illustrations of where things are with both the state of awareness and people's attitudes on the topic. Whether or not you like it there is a worthy cause here. Again I thank you for your campaign suggestion I honestly think it was a great contribution. If you feel the need to continue to bait me into an argument that simply will not happen. Moving on...


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## 8lbcalico

LuvShepherds said:


> . You can't do anything about it now.


The focus has shifted from reporting anyone to informing people. I'm now focused on creating a way to help distribute information and best practices to those who might not otherwise have access or are misinformed. 

As an update I have talked with several local and not so local shelters and rescues, they all welcome the information and would be more than willing to distribute appropriately upon review of any material that helps stem the spread and possibly save dogs.

I have infact been put in touch with a few volunteers who can help me write and publish this information.

We have decided there should be both a rescue/shelter and a foster/adopter version. I have gathered all your shared comments suggestions and links and have started a first draft.

I'm attempting to reach someone at the aspca to request the use and link back to their site and all the information they have gathered.

Also, I have several vets that would stand behind something like this of course upon review and stamp their name on it as a recommendation.

So hopefully something good comes out of all this, thank you for all your help so far it is much appreciated, and yes Viking thank you as well for a wonderful idea!


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## BroncoK

I think in general defense on the attitude that you are getting from some about Parvo is that you know, some people who have been in dogs or even live stock for a while know a few things...

1) there is a risk with every animal of exposing them in some way or another to viruses and bacteria....it's generally knowing your surroundings and what you are up against that gives you the upper hand. You can't escape everything....

2) It's true that parvo has been around for quite some time now....so in general, knowing the risks, we as adults must decide on a plan. Okay if I bring abc home to xyz what are the symptoms to watch for in my animals in the event that they come down with an illness....we aren't always sure of what is on our property (especially if it's a new place) and being fully prepared ahead of time i.e. am I financially capable of saving an animals life if they come down with an illness....if not, maybe right now is not the time to bring home an animal.


3) Owning animals you are going to be exposed to all sorts of fun things and you can't prevent all of them. There is just no way..it's not possible.... Take Giardia for example...now that is a peach to take care of and it can spread like crazy. Or the dog flu!? 

We fostered a puppy who we thought was really quite healthy for weeks until one night we woke up to this dog just sick sick!! I mean sick!! She was so sick we din't have time to make it down the stairs to take her outside to eliminate herself! We are talking vomiting and bloody stool all over the place! We thought for sure she had parvo! We stayed up with her all night long until we could make it to the closest vet. You know what she had? An INTENSE case of whip, hook and round worms despite being fully dewormed. They caused such havoc on her intestinal system she was incontinent and caused the bloody stool....when we talked to the foster we found out that all the puppies had the same symptoms and one even passed due to the die off of the parasites too fast! Terrible isn't it!?

With all of that being said, I don't mean to down play your situation at all...it's never exciting when you fully understand the risks of illness and sickness....but in general, it's the reality of pet owners....unless we put ourselves in a bubble we take risks every day when we live with our pets. You take them to the mountains, go on a hike, swim in a lake...here this last summer the Plague was pretty rampant not far from our back yard and in a place that we regularly hiked...you know we make educated choices and hope that we are ready to face whatever with our beloved animals....You know we send our children to school during the flu season! We can't hide from everything...it's just those wonderful learning experiences to better prepare us for the future... 

I think it is absolutely necessary to educate, I don't think that the gal who brought over those puppies had any ill will in showing you the puppies...and honestly, if I knew they had recovered my thoughts are they are strong dogs and I wouldn't be worried that they would infect my property and that it would be the end all be all of my place...I would express concern to anyone bringing their pets onto my property so that they can make their own educated decision...

And honestly, at some point or another we all were in your shoes....growing up and learning about the scary things that we face in a day to day life and learning to educate ourselves about them so we are prepared to face it in the future....I hope I didn't beat a dead horse here....and I hope I didn't offend. Good for you for educating yourself and educating others. I hope that whatever you find out that you are willing to still take that risk of getting a beloved pet and living that full, fun, adventurous life despite all it's set backs and that you would operate out of the confidence in your knowledge and not fearing the worst.  Best of luck to you!


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## viking

8lbcalico-
I think your campaign to disseminate best practices is a very worthy cause. Sincerely, good for you and the people (and pups) you will no doubt help. I am really happy to hear that your focus has shifted from 'reporting on' to 'informing'. Best of luck with these endeavors!


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## Chip18

8lbcalico said:


> It's too bad you feel this way, I don't feel that an effort to make something better and help inform people is petty.


 You have PM.


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## Stonevintage

Awesome! I use createspace for a 30 page "How To" manual I sell on Amazon. The charge to me is $2.77 each + $3.99 shipping to order a single copy. I selected one of their covers and it was all done online. I typed it on my computer and uploaded it to theirs. I just ordered one to do some revisions on - first hard copy I've seen and I've been selling it for 3 years lol!

I'm not sure what you have in mind but you might take a quick look at their site.


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## 8lbcalico

BroncoK : thank you for the kind words and advice. Much appreciated. I do not think that there was any ill will either, the counselor is a wonderful person doing great things for dogs and families alike. I hope I can help her and others, if it only saves one life a few hours of my life, some heart ache, and all the things that come with change is completely worth it.


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## 8lbcalico

Stonevintage thanks for the tip I will look into that.


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## 8lbcalico

viking said:


> campaign to disseminate best practices


Well thank you very much! I think your campaign idea has galvanized my purpose. I really hope this helps people and puppies.


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