# Just breed my white shepherd, new to this



## cowgirlc

Hello everyone, I have a six year old white shepherd and I just had her breed with a a black and tan male. This will be a first for me so I want to make sure I am doing everything right for her during the pregnancy and after. I understand that she will deliver the pups in about 65 days. She was breed on the 14th of march, should I wait about 5 days before taking her to the vet for a blood test to confirm the pregnancy? By the way I am not trying to become a breeder, my hubby and I inherited this white shepherd from a friend who could no longer take care of her time wise. As for the pups, they are all spoken for depending on how many are in the litter, hubby and I will keep a male and then the rest are going to loving homes of people we know are dog lovers. We have no desire to make money from the litter. So any advise from you guys would be great. I just want to make sure that Black (sorry, that is the name of my white shepherd) is well taken care of and comfortable and make sure I have everything I need to care for the pups as well.

Thank you all very much.


Cynthia


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## LaRen616

This is her first litter and she is 6 years old? Correct?


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## gsdraven

LaRen616 said:


> This is her first litter and she is 6 years old? Correct?


Nope. See her Welcome thread.


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## LaRen616

gsdraven said:


> Nope. See her Welcome thread.


Oh, I see. ​


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## BestK9GSD

opcorn:


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## valreegrl

Ugh! More purely bred puppies 

Why breed her? 1.) She is white 2.) She has an iffy temperament and I bet no titles 3.) She most likely does not have her hips/elbows certified 4.) I bet that the male is the same 5.) No need!

Just because you have an intact female and a connection to a knucklehead intact male doesn't mean you should produce puppies. Great that they all have homes now but where will they be in 6 months or a year?


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## DharmasMom

Oh dear.


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## Zoeys mom

Out of curiosity why would you breed a submissive dog? Nerve issues are most often genetic not to mention with no health testing or hip certs. you have no clue whether or not you just helped create future sick unhealthy animals, or animals with weak nerves and fear issues. I'm sure your intentions were good but did you bother to research breeding before allowing some random male access to your bitch? Has he had any health testing done?

I hope the pregnancy did not take and you take the time to understand people who do what you have done are the reason we have so many health and temperament issues in shepherds today. This used to be a breed with solid nerves and unwaivering bravery with few health problems- now what?


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## LaRen616

If you are serious about being a breeder and you want to be a reputable one that people respect, then I am all for it and I will wish you luck and applaud you for it.

But if you just want puppies because your dog looks good, or you think your dog has a good temperment or because you want to make money off of them or if you are producing puppies because your friends and family want a puppy then I have no respect for you or what you are doing. 

So did you OFA your pregnant bitch? Does she have any titles? What's her pedigree? What will she bring to the GSD breed? 

I hope your female doesn't die due to complications, because that does happen sometimes.


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## Girth

Dudette 

You just step in a hugh cow patty.


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## Girth

Might want to read this thread from start to finish: *Kyleigh 5 month old future protector*. 

It will give you an idea of the mindset of most folks on this forum.


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## gsdraven

Girth said:


> Might want to read this thread from start to finish: *Kyleigh 5 month old future protector*.
> 
> It will give you an idea of the mindset of most folks on this forum.


There is a good reason for that mindset as well. If people came on here and wanted to learn how to be a responsible breeder then this forum is very welcoming and eager to educate - we have some very knowledgeable breeders on here.

No, the majority of this forum does not support indiscriminate breeding because that is what has caused health and temperament problems with our breed as well as so many others. Have you ever walked into an animal shelter and seen all of the dogs that will likely be put to sleep because of people that breed without purpose other than puppies are cute?!


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## LaRen616

gsdraven said:


> There is a good reason for that mindset as well. If people came on here and wanted to learn how to be a responsible breeder then this forum is very welcoming and eager to educate - we have some very knowledgeable breeders on here.
> 
> *No, the majority of this forum does not support indiscriminate breeding because that is what has caused health and temperament problems with our breed as well as so many others.* Have you ever walked into an animal shelter and seen all of the dogs that will likely be put to sleep because of people that breed without purpose other than puppies are cute?!


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Kris10

Girth said:


> Dudette
> 
> You just step in a hugh cow patty.


:spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee:


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## valreegrl

Here is a rundown of what happens when breeding goes wrong as it pertains to the pups getting put out (from personal experience)

Male WGSD:
13 weeks - HOD (hypertrophic osteodystrophy - some studies show that young pups confirmed HOD could have correlation with poor nutrition and improper breeding)
9 months - Pano (not genetic however just another issue)
15 months - unconfirmed GI issue (after many months of tests still without diagnosis) 

Temperament:
extremely reactive (some from improper socialization stemming from time with HOD and on strict crate rest and some surely genetic) 
fearful
anxious
soft

My Vet has actually referred to him as a "genetic nightmare". 

And you want to put more pups out there with the above possibilities. See the error?


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## valreegrl

Dup thread. Maybe OP didn't like the answers in the last one


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## gsdraven

valreegrl said:


> Dup thread. Maybe OP didn't like the answers in the last one


The OP started them at the same time. I notified the mods in the General section so hopefully they can be merged.


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## firfly

LOL...guys talk about beating a dead horse with a stick, pardon the pun. This one is gone and probably will never be back. Some people just forget to do their research, which is no excuse. However lets hope she really has good homes for all these pups if her bitch takes.


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## DCluver33

.....WOW.......


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## mssandslinger

valreegrl said:


> Here is a rundown of what happens when breeding goes wrong as it pertains to the pups getting put out (from personal experience)
> 
> Male WGSD:
> 13 weeks - HOD (hypertrophic osteodystrophy - some studies show that young pups confirmed HOD could have correlation with poor nutrition and improper breeding)
> 9 months - Pano (not genetic however just another issue)
> 15 months - unconfirmed GI issue (after many months of tests still without diagnosis)
> 
> Temperament:
> extremely reactive (some from improper socialization stemming from time with HOD and on strict crate rest and some surely genetic)
> fearful
> anxious
> soft
> 
> My Vet has actually referred to him as a "genetic nightmare".
> 
> And you want to put more pups out there with the above possibilities. See the error?





exactly why i dont wanna breed my boy! He is my baby and i love him but it took me a while to realize he is in NO WAY gonna be bred because of these qualities, minus the GI issue.


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## KendraLovey

Kris10 said:


> :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee:


My reaction exactly.....LOL:wild:


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## codmaster

But the breeding already took place - now is the time to help her with the thing not lament about why she should not have done it. Hope it didn't take, yes; but also anyone with good post breeding advice for her would be most welcome at this point!


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## Courtney

codmaster said:


> But the breeding already took place - now is the time to help her with the thing not lament about why she should not have done it. Hope it didn't take, yes; but also anyone with good post breeding advice for her would be most welcome at this point!


I agree. Hopefully she does stick around so these puppies have a fighting chance of surviving.


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## EJQ

Oh boy!! I wish she had done her homework BEFORE breeding this dog. Well, there is always the chance that the breeding will not take. I don't get it - I'm sure that some of these folks have all good intentions but HOLY COW -what are they thinking?!


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## kiwilrdg

> I am not trying to become a breeder, my hubby and I inherited this white shepherd from a friend who could no longer take care of her time wise. As for the pups, they are all spoken for depending on how many are in the litter, hubby and I will keep a male and then the rest are going to loving homes of people we know are dog lovers. We have no desire to make money from the litter. So any advise from you guys would be great. I just want to make sure that Black (sorry, that is the name of my white shepherd) is well taken care of and comfortable and make sure I have everything I need to care for the pups as well.


I agree with Codmaster on this. Folks with the experience, please step in with advice on what to do to make the best of the situation and prevent any problems that can be avoided from this point on. I do not have the experience to give the advice that is needed so if you do please pretend that the post was from someone who discovered the dog they adopted was pregnant and help to make the best of it.


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## KatieStanley

Oh great- Kaufman, TX- Looks like our rescue will be getting a few new additions in about 6-7 months...we are already over flowing...


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## cowgirlc

Hello everyone, first of all I thank each of you for your honesty on this subject. I take all of these responses for just what they are, honest informative opnions, with much appreciation. Perhaps, the hubby and his buddy, who are actually doing this with the two shepherds, should have done some research on breeding. I probally should have mentioned that it is not me personally breeding the dogs, never the less, my purpose here is for the mother. Because I know nothing of raising new pups nor do I know about pregnant females, but I am a dog and animal lover who just wants to make sure these animals are well taken care of in this careless situation. I was informed of what was done after the fact and have shifted into caretaker mode. I own a yorkie who is my world, he is 4 years old and although many many people asked me to breed him I just could not do that and had him fixed like a responsible owner.

I have not read the sugested posting but I will do so, in the meantime, again I just want to take care of these animals now that Black is more likly pregnant.

I thank you all for your help

Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

Hello everyone, first of all I thank each of you for your honesty on this subject. I take all of these responses for just what they are, honest informative opnions, with much appreciation. Perhaps, the hubby and his buddy, who are actually doing this with the two shepherds, should have done some research on breeding. I probally should have mentioned that it is not me personally breeding the dogs, never the less, my purpose here is for the mother. Because I know nothing of raising new pups nor do I know about pregnant females, but I am a dog and animal lover who just wants to make sure these animals are well taken care of in this careless situation. I was informed of what was done after the fact and have shifted into caretaker mode. I own a yorkie who is my world, he is 4 years old and although many many people asked me to breed him I just could not do that and had him fixed like a responsible owner.

I have not read the sugested posting but I will do so, in the meantime, again I just want to take care of these animals now that Black is more likly pregnant.

I thank you all for your help

Cynthia


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

You COULD spay terminate.


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## cowgirlc

firfly said:


> LOL...guys talk about beating a dead horse with a stick, pardon the pun. This one is gone and probably will never be back. Some people just forget to do their research, which is no excuse. However lets hope she really has good homes for all these pups if her bitch takes.


Hello there, please see my response post, I am not gone, I anm quite serious about doing the right thing for these animals, and yes, the homes that they are going to are not fly by night families that just want a cute puppy, they are responsible adults and perfer to treat their animals as family members. No bitter ness here at all, from any of the comments, I really do understand, and should have let you guys know that, my inquiries come after having learned that the hubby and his buddy bred Black a couple of days ago. Its done now, and I will be taking her to the vet in a few days to confirm if she is infact pregnant. Can someone tell me how long should I wait to confirm this?

I just want to do the right thing for Black, she is here at my home, not by my choice or doing but that really does not matter to me at this point. I spend time with her and I feed her, talk to her and play with her, even though hubby claims she is his dog. I treat her like I treat my yorkie, with tender loving care.

So again any help in caring for her would be greatly appreciated, I intend to ask all the questions I need to to make sure I take proper care of a pregnant female as I have never had to do so.

Thank you for your time


Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

codmaster said:


> But the breeding already took place - now is the time to help her with the thing not lament about why she should not have done it. Hope it didn't take, yes; but also anyone with good post breeding advice for her would be most welcome at this point!



Thank you so very much for this, I kind of hope it did take because the hubby did say he would not breed her again and would have her fixed after this litter. Lets hope he keeps his word. I am so against this having happened but, again, I am now simply seeking care instructions because I have never done this.

I appreciate you all very much for the feedback


Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

Courtney said:


> I agree. Hopefully she does stick around so these puppies have a fighting chance of surviving.



I hope I am welcome to stick around so you guys can help me thru this, thats why I am here, I would like to keep you guys updated as to Blacks care and progress, I am gonna need you all to make sure if she is pregnant she has a health litter that I can place in the care of animal lovers like myself and not have them end up in shelters seeking homes.

Cynthia


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## JustMeLeslie

cowgirlc said:


> Thank you so very much for this, I kind of hope it did take because the hubby did say he would not breed her again and would have her fixed after this litter. Lets hope he keeps his word. I am so against this having happened but, again, I am now simply seeking care instructions because I have never done this.
> 
> I appreciate you all very much for the feedback
> 
> 
> Cynthia


 
You need to see if the pregnancy took first and if it didn't then you go get her fixed. Don't leave it up to your husband. That is what I would do. You make the responsible decision for the health of your girl.


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## cowgirlc

I will be around, if I do not respond right away it is simply because I am away from the computer. I spend a lot of time online and will be here daily if I am allowed and welcomed to post here.

Thank you all for your reply


Cynthia


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## firfly

Cowgirlc, I am glad you are trying to do the right thing, just try to understand that in General where AKC is concerned a white colored GSD is a fault, and should only be breed with another white if breed at all, that is another arguement all togather, but when owners read that a white was breed whith a black and tan, and neither have OFA or Pinn done, and neither have any titles, you are going to have some upset people. Very seldom will you ever have female with excellent hips, and good elbows, the elbows are harder to come by than the hips. However these are the only females if titled that should be breed in my opinion any how, with the male haveing at least good in both hip, and elbow. I hope you find the help you need I am unable to answer your question or I would, best of luck to you and tell your hubby to do a little research next time before acting in such a irresponsible manner.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

JustMeLeslie said:


> You need to see if the pregnancy took first and if it didn't then you go get her fixed. Don't leave it up to your husband. That is what I would do. You make the responsible decision for the health of your girl.


Yes and you can do it anyway - she could go in tomorrow and be spayed.


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## Lilie

Hi Cowgirlc - I would suggest that you call your vet and ask when would be a good time to have her checked for pregnancy. You can also ask your vet any health related questions you may have to help your girl provide a healthy enviroment for her puppies. 

This forum can assist with questions as well, but you really need to start with your personal vet.


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## JustMeLeslie

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Yes and you can do it anyway - she could go in tomorrow and be spayed.


That is right! That totally slipped my mind. She wouldn't be too far along if she was pregnant to still have her fixed.


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## Dr89

I'm going to assume that as far as the OP is concerned spaying now isn't an option. So what I would suggest is having all the new owners of the puppies-to-be sign a spay/neuter contract so that this line can stop here. Spay you're girl, follow up and make sure all pups are fixed within a given time (6-12 months maybe?) and make sure no more gsd's come into this world through this obvious mismatched/poor-quality breeding. 

That being said, of course you are welcome to the forum and please do keep us updated! There are plenty of experienced people here who will help you through this with anything you might need to know.


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## Shrap

Do you not have the mismate injection over there? It's like the coil in humans, stops the embryo implanting, and since that doesn't happen for about 2 weeks after mating, is still very much an option. Although an emergency spay probably wouldn't have any more risks associated than a normal spay at this stage.

Why would spaying not be an option right now?

OP you really shouldn't be hoping they've taken... What if she has 11 puppies? Do you have 11 friends/family members ready to take on a pup with possible health AND temperment problems? A weak nerve + incorrect socialisation etc. will only cause problems.

Take the dog to the vet and ask about mismate or spay. It really is for the good of the dog and pups. Just tell your husband it didn't take!


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## onyx'girl

On another forum a very experienced breeder just lost her beloved 6 year old female a few days after the pups were born...they had to have an emergency C section and she didn't recover. Rest in Peace,Kira.
Now this breeder is feeding 9 puppies around the clock.

I hope you don't have to go thru this, and will spay Black tomorrow.
There are so many things that can go wrong, and experienced breeders can avert problems because they are proactive. But it still can end in heartache. Please spay Black tomorrow.


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## southforsunshine

Not much for me to say that hasn't been said. Get involved with rescue work and you'll agree. 



onyx'girl said:


> Please spay Black tomorrow.


I know you won't enjoy hearing it, and I sure as crap don't enjoy saying it, but this is the best case scenario. ^^


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## Whitedog404

Originally Posted by *onyx'girl*  
_Please spay Black tomorrow._

_Then consider conking your husband and his friend upside the head with a frying pan. Knock some sense into them. _


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## BestK9GSD

Whitedog404 said:


> Originally Posted by *onyx'girl*
> _Please spay Black tomorrow._
> 
> _*Then consider conking your husband and his friend upside the head with a frying pan. Knock some sense into them.* _


:rofl: - this is great!!! :rofl:


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## RogueRed26

Dr89 said:


> I'm going to assume that as far as the OP is concerned spaying now isn't an option. So what I would suggest is having all the new owners of the puppies-to-be sign a spay/neuter contract so that this line can stop here. Spay you're girl, follow up and make sure all pups are fixed within a given time (6-12 months maybe?) and make sure no more gsd's come into this world through this obvious mismatched/poor-quality breeding.
> 
> That being said, of course you are welcome to the forum and please do keep us updated! There are plenty of experienced people here who will help you through this with anything you might need to know.


I agree. Have the new owners sign a contract that enforces for them to spay and neuter the puppies. Also, after she has her puppies, have her spayed as well. She is 6 years old. Not a 2 year old. She is not of age to still be breeding. Have her fixed and ignore your husband. You are the wife of the house, you have a say, not just your husband. If you do not stop it right there in the bud, you are simply going to contribute to BYB breeding cycle.


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## wolfstraum

I agree that spaying this female now or ASAP is the kindest and safest, most caring thing you can do....all the 'good homes' lining up can be provided with plenty of leads on rescue dogs or litters from parents who have had health clearances at the very least! Doing the best things to get a healthy litter starts with health clearances on both parents....

I know that this is overwhelming, but people here really want what is best for your dog and every GSD that is out there...

Lee


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## GSDElsa

Her husband bred their dog without consulting her. I highly doubt that an emergency spay is going to go over too well. But we can only hope;


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## DharmasMom

Shrap said:


> Do you not have the mismate injection over there? It's like the coil in humans, stops the embryo implanting, and since that doesn't happen for about 2 weeks after mating, is still very much an option. Although an emergency spay probably wouldn't have any more risks associated than a normal spay at this stage.
> 
> Why would spaying not be an option right now?
> 
> OP you really shouldn't be hoping they've taken... What if she has 11 puppies? Do you have 11 friends/family members ready to take on a pup with possible health AND temperment problems? A weak nerve + incorrect socialisation etc. will only cause problems.
> 
> Take the dog to the vet and ask about mismate or spay. It really is for the good of the dog and pups. Just tell your husband it didn't take!



Okay. I have to say that I find that people telling this woman to go and get the dog spayed and then lie to her husband about it HIGHLY inappropriate. Is this the best situation for the dog, of course not. But unless anyone on here knows this lady and her husband personally and knows exactly what kind of relationship she has with her husband, that advice is not only bad it can down right dangerous. We have no idea what his motivation behind breeding this dog is or how he would react to finding out his wife not only spayed the dog but lied to him about it. At the very least you could end up causing serious tension in their relationship.

I already have serious doubts about a spouse who would just arbitrarily bring home a dog and breed it against his wife's wishes. The best thing she can do is sit him down and have a SERIOUS discussion on why this is such a bad idea. Take him to a kill shelter if necessary and let him see all the dogs that are about to be euthanized. Go on kill day if possible. Let him see the dogs with just hours to live. Talk to him about pet over population and how you will be contributing to it. 

There are plenty of better ways than to lie to him. I don't advise that at all. Hopefully the pregnancy did not take and all of this will be for nothing. Fingers and paws are crossed. And thank you for taking care of this girl and loving her even though you did not want her!


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## onyx'girl

What I would like to know, did your husband watch her heat cycle and breed her when she was ready? How many times did he breed her? You must have known what was going on, and if your husband did this without your knowledge then I wonder what other things he does without you knowing that effects your life?


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## vat

Egads, smack your hubby and his friend upside the head and then make both of them volunteer at the local shelter! As for the rest I have no advice on breeding but now that it is done I am sure you will get good advice on how to proceed. Just be prepared, having pups is NOT fun!


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## southforsunshine

onyx'girl said:


> *if your husband did this without your knowledge then I wonder what other things he does without you knowing that effects your life?*


Getting pretty inappropriate here, IMO.

If the guy was viewing this as a business venture or hobby, who are you to make such rash judgments? My SO doesn't know every new toy I buy or every sales opportunity I pursue.. golly gee, if I'll change to a new wholesaler or trade one of my guns for a mountain bike without her knowing, imagine what else I must do behind her back  Come on.

I agree spaying the dog behind his back and telling him it didn't take is in very bad taste. Better off putting your boot down in the situation and setting things right, above the table.


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## onyx'girl

I would be concerned if my husband went behind my back and did such a thing....appropriate? A _life_ is not a toy and breeding a pet is much more responsibility than bringing home a new toy. Because I doubt the husband will be doing the day to day nurturing of this litter, and taking responsibility for the lives of the puppies. He's already shown he chose to be deceitful and irresponsible in the breeding of their pet dog! And he would be the one on here asking questions to have a healthy litter. 
If he were "responsible" he would have done right by the dog(health tests at least) and his wife.


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## holland

...south, south, south what you haven't figured out is some people on the board know all and we are just so lucky that they share it with the rest of us


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## Shrap

Poor taste? Breeding a bitch behind your partner's back is poor taste. I don't really care! He's not going to listen if he did it behind her back, he obviously knows he's wrong but doesn't care. Therefore I suggested the best course of action for the dog and pups.
Whether she's in a possibly abusive relationship or not (if that is what you're suggesting), is entirely nothing to do with this. All I care about is the poor dog and her puppies. And it doesn't have to be a spay. A mismate is less obvious. But nobody has answered if that is the done thing over there?

To the OP, I do hope you do the right thing and find a way to convince your OH (or not) - and get her spayed/mismated.

No rudeness was intended in this post, although I'm new to this forum, I'm not new to the problem of people breeding their pets thinking it's all going to be fuzzy cute cuddles followed by raking in the cash. (Not you, OP, just your OH..... Unless you decide to do nothing and keep the pups, in which case yes, you.)

There is no such thing as an accidental litter, only an accidental pregnancy. If you allow it to continue it is no longer accidental.


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## southforsunshine

Arguing about this will add nothing to the conversation or the resolution of OP's problem, but do note: I NEVER said a dog is a toy or a business adventure, I said that MAY be how the guy views this breeding. Even that's a stretch considering I don't actually know anything about him, her, their relationship or how the decision to breed actually went down.

Holland

Lots of good advice in here. Wish the OP the very best.


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## DharmasMom

Shrap said:


> Poor taste? Breeding a bitch behind your partner's back is poor taste. I don't really care! He's not going to listen if he did it behind her back, he obviously knows he's wrong but doesn't care. Therefore I suggested the best course of action for the dog and pups.
> Whether she's in a possibly abusive relationship or not (if that is what you're suggesting), is entirely nothing to do with this. All I care about is the poor dog and her puppies. And it doesn't have to be a spay. A mismate is less obvious. But nobody has answered if that is the done thing over there?
> 
> To the OP, I do hope you do the right thing and find a way to convince your OH (or not) - and get her spayed/mismated.
> 
> No rudeness was intended in this post, although I'm new to this forum, I'm not new to the problem of people breeding their pets thinking it's all going to be fuzzy cute cuddles followed by raking in the cash. (Not you, OP, just your OH..... Unless you decide to do nothing and keep the pups, in which case yes, you.)
> 
> There is no such thing as an accidental litter, only an accidental pregnancy. If you allow it to continue it is no longer accidental.




I do not disagree that what he did was wrong. But she should not compound that by lying to him and having the dog spayed or anything else behind his back. I do not agree with lying to your partner. I also NEVER suggested she was in an abusive relationship- please don't put words in my mouth. He may be the most wonderful, supportive person in the world but she can cause problems by lying to him. 

I understand that your desire is what is best for the dog. I think that is what we all want but it should never be suggested to someone that they go behind their spouse's back to do something, especially if you do not know that person and have no idea what kind of circumstances that person may be in. There are better ways to handle the situation. 

It sounds like he did this without any research of any kind so I am willing to bet he thinks he will make money off of the puppies. I am not disagreeing that the dog needs to be spayed (I have never heard of mismate) but she needs to talk to him about it and make him understand all of the reasons why. He already went behind her back and brought the dog home and then bred the dog. She doesn't need to be going behind his back as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.


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## southforsunshine

Shrap: If you read you'll see I'm in full favor of an ER spay. But doing it behind your spouses back is in very bad taste. His Negative + Her Negative = verrrrrry negative. Do it above the table, sneaking is never good, even if "he started it".



DharmasMom said:


> She doesn't need to be going behind his back as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.


exxxxxxxxxxxxactly


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## cowgirlc

Wow, again, thank you all for the replys, each are entitled to how they feel about the situation and how best to handle the situation. Let me clear a couple of things up here regarding my husband and his buddy, who are both loving caring men in their own respects, and not that I owe anyone an explanation, I get to choose what I would like to share, and I get to decide what advice to take here and what advice to leave as it is. My husband did not do this behind my back, he consulted me before even bringing Black to live with us, which I agreed to because she is a sweet dog that has come from a back yard life and who has had 3 litters to date and I knew that we could give her a better life here by making her a member of our family. Although I was not present when the guys discussed breeding Black, he did come home and spoke with me about their plans at which time, I let my feelings be known that I really did not like the idea of having her bred and that she should be spayed. After much talk on this matter, I told him that if he insists on following thru with this, I needed to talk to some friends to see if in fact Black did get pregnant could we place the pups in homes that would be willing to take on adding another fur family member to ensure that the pups are cared for. I was able to acomplish this very easily, that was my fist demand. My Second demand was to let him know that he could never do this again and must have Black spayed either way, if she is not pregnant she must be spayed, and if she is pregnant, she must be spayed after this final litter.

Both hubby and buddy have agreed to my demands, and at this point its done so I have to move on to seeking all the information I can to care for Black either way. Hubby really is a good guy and meant no harm in his bad judgement to breed her in the first place, we have to get thru this and do the next right thing in my view, which is why I am here.

I have put a call into my vet who cares for both of my other dogs and our horses, he has advised me to bring her in on saturday, as long as she is eating normal and in no distress, at which point we shall move forward from there.

So this is where we are, and as for the suggestion to have her spayed with out telling hubby, that is one of those that I just read and let it be. I could never do something like that, we love trust and respect each other and after 19 years of marriage, no need to start telling lies now.

I shall keep posting so that I get the help I need here and so that all of you that love and care for this breed know she is in good hands here dispite this situation.


Thanks again guys for all your feedback.


Cynthia:help:


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## cowgirlc

Sorry, I need to clear up one more little thing, no puppys will be sold. That was never the intention, hubbys intentions I know was to get another male shepherd after having sugar, the shepherd pictured in my profile stolen, by letting her run loose one day, something I don't think he will ever do again. He was very hurt and has yet to get over sugar. So please know, we are not in the breeding business and have no desire to sell puppies. The homes that the pups are going to will be taking care of the vet expenses I encure should there be a litter, this was their offer to me, to be able to pay for their pups vet care while the pups are in my care, so I have help there, but other than that there is no money involved here.

Thank you

Cynthia


----------



## onyx'girl

I would contact GSD breeders for advice on whelping, raising and finding good homes for the ones that the family and friends won't be taking. And matching up the pups to the correct family is very important for the puppy/family. Or find a rescue that will help you screen/place pups if you cannot do it yourself. A generous donation would be nice if you went that route.
Here are a few links that may be of help in the raising of young pups:
http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biosensor.htm (this program has many different links if you google biosensor superdog program)
How to evaluate puppies:
Elem. of Temperament

and a link to what the breeder I got my pup from puppy raising program description(which is excellent IMO):
(Wildhaus Kennels Raising Working German Shepherd Puppies)
If you have an experienced breeder nearby that can mentor you, that would be best, especially during the whelping. I wish you luck...


----------



## Rerun

I apologize because I haven't read all 6 pages, but I hardly see how you can spay a dog and not tell someone. It's a pretty major surgery, and will leave a nice scar as well as a shaved belly and requrie some aftercare.

I'm glad to hear you're not going to go behind his back and spay the dog.


----------



## Shrap

I'm sorry how I came across. It seemed the way you said it before that you had no idea until just there and didn't really explain his motivations. It makes more sense now. But really he needs to know just how much he's puting this bitch through. She's 6 years old and has already had 3 litters. It's time for her to retire now.
See if you can speak to him, take him to a shelter, explain to him that she just isn't the right dog for breeding. She's too old!
Can't you just let him buy a puppy of his choice from a reputable breeder?
You have to remember the fact that you could be breeding health problems into the puppies, and if you're keeping one he's only going to get hurt again should the pup develop something.

Do YOU want the pregnancy to continue or would you rather spay?


----------



## DharmasMom

I am glad to hear that he didn't do this behind your back. Can I ask why he is so set on breeding this dog? If for no other reason than she is older and is higher risk, that should really be taken into consideration. I certainly appreciate the fact he misses and is grieving for Sugar. I, myself, would be devastated of something happened to my Dharma. Is he set on breeding Black because of the connection to Sugar or is he just desperate for another puppy?


----------



## mydogrocks

I just want ot comend you for being completely honest and not blaming everything on your husband. I wish I could answer your questions but I'm not a breeder (and never intend to be, waaaay to much responsibility) but there are some great breeders on this site that can answer your questions. Also you should look around in the breeder section, theres some great stuff in there. I would suggest getting books on whelping and raising puppies and i think someone already mentioned finding a reputable breeder that can help you out. 
Good Luck


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## cowgirlc

Here is a picture of Black and my little Gizmo


Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

Shrap said:


> I'm sorry how I came across. It seemed the way you said it before that you had no idea until just there and didn't really explain his motivations. It makes more sense now. But really he needs to know just how much he's puting this bitch through. She's 6 years old and has already had 3 litters. It's time for her to retire now.
> See if you can speak to him, take him to a shelter, explain to him that she just isn't the right dog for breeding. She's too old!
> Can't you just let him buy a puppy of his choice from a reputable breeder?
> You have to remember the fact that you could be breeding health problems into the puppies, and if you're keeping one he's only going to get hurt again should the pup develop something.
> 
> Do YOU want the pregnancy to continue or would you rather spay?


I would rather spay, and she has already been bred at this point so we shall see after the vet looks at her if she is in fact pregnant, at which point I can move forward either way. As for breeding this paticular dog as opposed to buying another pup from a breeded, I belive it is the attachment to sugar that motivated hubby being that Black was sugars mother. If in fact she is not pregnant, the we shall have her spayed and, I had not asked him if he would consider seeking out a good breeder, so I think that is a good idea. But I must finish with the task at hand before even going there with him.

Cynthia

Please forgive my spelling I tend to type too fast...lol


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## JustMeLeslie

I just wanted to say I really commend you for going above and beyond explaining your whole situation. I think some including myself might have thought that the breeding was behind your back. I completely understand your whole story now. I would also like to apologize if any one of my earlier comments seemed harsh. I think you have a very good plan for dealing with the whole situation given whether Black is pregnant or not. 

Thank you for staying here on this forum even if some comments seemed harsh at first. Please continue to update us on Black. There are some really knowledgeable people here that can really help you. 

Let me do what should have been said in the beginning.
Hi and welcome to the forum!


----------



## cowgirlc

JustMeLeslie said:


> I just wanted to say I really commend you for going above and beyond explaining your whole situation. I think some including myself might have thought that the breeding was behind your back. I completely understand your whole story now. I would also like to apologize if any one of my earlier comments seemed harsh. I think you have a very good plan for dealing with the whole situation given whether Black is pregnant or not.
> 
> Thank you for staying here on this forum even if some comments seemed harsh at first. Please continue to update us on Black. There are some really knowledgeable people here that can really help you.
> 
> Let me do what should have been said in the beginning.
> Hi and welcome to the forum!



Thank you so much for the welcome, and yes some of the post were a bit harsh in the beginning, but sis not bother me at all, because I really do ''get it'' in terms of people making money off of dogs and breeding without even considering the dog or cat for that matter, you don't know how many people tried to get me to breed my yorkie...out of the question, I paid good money for him, and got just what I wanted, a joy no one could describe. No money in the world would make me give him up and he litterally gets my last dime....lol

So again thank you, it is because I do ''get it''' that I choose to explain the big picture so that you guys could understand, and provide the best advise for Black, she is the key here.


Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

Hello everyone, just a quick up-date on Black, she is doing wonderful, eating very well and taking walks with me and my gizmo. She will be going into the vet tomorrow so that I can see if she is pregnant or not. I will let you all know what happens after tomorrow

Thanks


Cynthia


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## DunRingill

I don't think the vet can tell you tomorrow if she's pregnant or not....wasn't she just bred earlier this week? Is she still in bleeding/in season? 

On what day of her heat was she bred?


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## GSDElsa

cowgirlc said:


> I was informed of what was done after the fact


I'm confused because you said this earlier in the thred??


----------



## GSDElsa

cowgirlc said:


> I was informed of what was done after the fact


I'm confused because you said this earlier in the thred??


----------



## Dr. Teeth

Does anybody even care, or know why White Shepherds shouldn't be bred? 

It was backyard breeding like this that created faulty pigmentation. A clear sign that no thought was put into the breeding. Next, two faulty white Shepherds were put together and most likely from a narrow gene pool, to produce more white dogs. At this point the gene pool is narrow and nothing has been considered except "white". 

And did the AKC recently say white is OK now? I see no benefit in anything AKC. Not to mention the banner for this site proudly displaying a white dog?????

If you have a white dog, give it your love, but please never breed it.


----------



## Andaka

Dr. Teeth said:


> Does anybody even care, or know why White Shepherds shouldn't be bred?
> 
> It was backyard breeding like this that created faulty pigmentation. A clear sign that no thought was put into the breeding. Next, two faulty white Shepherds were put together and most likely from a narrow gene pool, to produce more white dogs. At this point the gene pool is narrow and nothing has been considered except "white".
> 
> And did the AKC recently say white is OK now? I see no benefit in anything AKC. Not to mention the banner for this site proudly displaying a white dog?????
> 
> If you have a white dog, give it your love, but please never breed it.


Did you know that Horand (the foundation sire of the breed and beloved companion of the creator of our breed) had a WHITE grandparent? White has always been in the breed, but it has never been a prefered color. And no, AKC has not changed the disqualification for white dogs, but they have always been registerable.


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## mssandslinger

Dr. Teeth said:


> Does anybody even care, or know why White Shepherds shouldn't be bred?


i dont beleive that they "shouldnt" be bred but i think actual breeders who know what they are doing should breed them. not BYB


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## southforsunshine

GSDElsa said:


> Originally Posted by cowgirlc
> I was informed of what was done after the fact
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused because you said this earlier in the thred??
Click to expand...


I had a feeling he didn't just go behind her back and come out like "YEP, BRED YOUR DOG TODAY WHILE YOU WERE TAKING A SHOWER" Which is why I said...

"Even that's a stretch considering I don't actually know anything about him, her, their relationship or _how the decision to breed actually went down._"

...instead of accusing her husband of whacking the neighbors mailbox with a baseball bat and burnin down the country store.


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## Whiteshepherds

Dr. Teeth said:


> It was backyard breeding like this that created faulty pigmentation. A clear sign that no thought was put into the breeding. Next, two faulty white Shepherds were put together and most likely from a narrow gene pool, to produce more white dogs. At this point the gene pool is narrow and nothing has been considered except "white".
> 
> And did the AKC recently say white is OK now? I see no benefit in anything AKC. Not to mention the banner for this site proudly displaying a white dog?????


I'll ask you this question because I've asked it before when someone has mentioned the gene pool when breeding dogs, and no one has ever answered my question. 

Because I'm sure you wouldn't mention it without good reason, can you tell me how many dogs does it take to make a gene pool viable? 100? 1000? 10000? If by chance it isn't a specific number, when you say the gene pool is too narrow, what does that mean?

I don't want to debate if the whites should be bred btw, just wondering about the gene pool.


----------



## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> I'll ask you this question because I've asked it before when someone has mentioned the gene pool when breeding dogs, and no one has ever answered my question.
> 
> Because I'm sure you wouldn't mention it without good reason, can you tell me how many dogs does it take to make a gene pool viable? 100? 1000? 10000? If by chance it isn't a specific number, when you say the gene pool is too narrow, what does that mean?
> I don't want to debate if the whites should be bred btw, just wondering about the gene pool.


Here is a site where you can get some basic information about gene pools and their size and impacts. To really understand the concept in detail, you would need to understand a little about genetics and inheritance and related stuff.
HowStuffWorks "How Gene Pools Work"

But give it a try!


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

Dr. Teeth said:


> Not to mention the banner for this site proudly displaying a white dog?????
> 
> If you have a white dog, give it your love, but please never breed it.


And what exactly is wrong with this site having a white GSD on it's banner? They exist, there's no denying it. Those of us that own them don't love them any less than those who own "traditional" GSD colors. So why take issue with there being a white GSD on this site?


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Here is a site where you can get some basic information about gene pools and their size and impacts. To really understand the concept in detail, you would need to understand a little about genetics and inheritance and related stuff.
> HowStuffWorks "How Gene Pools Work"
> 
> But give it a try!


Thank you soooooooooo much!!


----------



## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> Thank you soooooooooo much!!


 
You are most welcome! - thought it might help you understand gene pools and why a too small one might be considered harmful.


----------



## codmaster

mssandslinger said:


> i dont beleive that they "shouldnt" be bred but i think actual breeders who know what they are doing should breed them. not BYB


They shouldn't be bred only if the breeder believes in the AKC of foreign GSD standard. Rust like a responsible (to the standard!) breeder would not usually breed a dog with any other disqualifying (from the conformation show ring) fault.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> You are most welcome! - thought it might help you understand gene pools and why a too small one might be considered harmful.


I still appreciate the link but when I saw it used fruit flies as an example my first reaction was sort of like this... :spittingcoffee:. After that I was okay.


----------



## codmaster

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> And what exactly is wrong with this site having a white GSD on it's banner? They exist, there's no denying it. Those of us that own them don't love them any less than those who own "traditional" GSD colors. So why take issue with there being a white GSD on this site?


Nothing wrong with the site displaying a white GSD! - it is up to the site owners as it is their site. They could also display a Rottie for that matter as they own the site. Of course, I hope that they don't decide to do that.

I wouldn't expect the GSDCA or SV or any other official GSD organization to display a GSD on their banner stuff with any disqualifying fault. I would expect any GSD organization (except any dedicated to the all white GSD, of course) to display and to support a GSD that is as close as possible to the standard animal illustration.

*Of course*, people that own a white GSD love them, as well they should. I loved my first GSD and she was an extremely poor structured GSD - great mind and temperament, but had a large number of structural faults. We had her spayed as she was not breed worthy to be bred. Mentally yes, but physically no way!

BTW, the "other colors", i.e. sable, B&T, all Black, etc. are not only "traditional"; they are in keeping with the standard and ARE acceptable in the breed show ring.


----------



## cowgirlc

GSDElsa said:


> I'm confused because you said this earlier in the thred??



Sorry you are confused about this, this is the exact picture, hubby often will let Black jump up into the truck with him when he is running around town and such, on Sunday was one of those days, while he was out in our aera at the buddies home he called me to tell me that he was allowing the previous owner to come and pick Black up so that he could breed her with the same mate for all of her litters. This is when I was in disagreement with having this done, and after much discussion the breeding took place on Sunday the 13th and monday the 14th. She returned home on tuesday the 15th. So is this too soon for the vet to tell if she is pregnant or not?


Thanks

Cynthia


----------



## southforsunshine

cowgirlc said:


> Sorry you are confused about this, this is the exact picture, hubby often will let Black jump up into the truck with him when he is running around town and such, on Sunday was one of those days, while he was out in our aera at the buddies home he called me to tell me that he was allowing the previous owner to come and pick Black up so that he could breed her with the same mate for all of her litters. This is when I was in disagreement with having this done, and after much discussion the breeding took place on Sunday the 13th and monday the 14th. She returned home on tuesday the 15th. So is this too soon for the vet to tell if she is pregnant or not?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cynthia


I'm no breeder, but I think you wait 4-5 weeks after they tie up and take her in for an ultrasound. Oozy vaginal discharge may give you an idea before then. Heard hormone tests are unreliable.


----------



## cowgirlc

southforsunshine said:


> I'm no breeder, but I think you wait 4-5 weeks after they tie up and take her in for an ultrasound. Oozy vaginal discharge may give you an idea before then. Heard hormone tests are unreliable.




*Thank you so much I appreciate it.

Cynthia*


----------



## Shrap

Does that mean you're following through with the pregnancy then if she took?


----------



## selzer

Cowgirlc,

Please buy a book on dog breeding. Here are some topics that it should include:

Whelping problems -- you need to know how to identify when your bitch is having contractions, hard labor, and problems, because they can be serious.

Raising orphan pups -- probably not necessary, but a good idea to have the book present if you need it.

Building a whelping box, you will want one with a pig rail so that the bitch cannot inadvertantly kill a puppy by smothering it.

Feeding the pregnant bitch,

Weaning the puppies

whelping

heat cycle, etc.

I have three or four books that I consult regularly when awaiting a litter. It is nice to have them right there in the house, so you can look the stuff up. 

But also make sure your vet is in the know and you can call them to ask questions, or if you have problems. Now, you should do your part, buy a book or two and read them, then if questions arise, call your vet and ask how to proceed.

Once I called the vet and said, she has been trying to pass the puppy for a while, I looked and I can see toenails. They asked if they were front toenails or back toenails. I could not tell. But they helped me out kind of like helping someone land an airplane. 

As you can see, asking questions on the internet will get you a lot of information that is relevant and maybe even good to know, but not what you need to know. You will get emotions and beliefs. You will get people who have not been there done that, telling you what you should or should not do -- DO NOT OFA YOUR BITCH AT THIS POINT! And you will have people who do know what they are talking about sending you here or there or trying to give you advice. The problem is, who do you, a newbie, trust. Do not go with how many posts a person has, that just means they said "ditto" or "what she said" 5000 times. It does not mean they know anything at all about whelping and raising puppies.

So buy a book, or a couple of books, read them, and if you have questions about what you read, go ahead and post the questions.


----------



## selzer

Yes, hormone tests ARE unreliable because the females body goes through all the stages of progesterone, etc, whether they are pregnant or not. And they can also have false pregnancies, where they gain weight, grow teets, maybe even have milk and have contractions. They can really, really have you going.


----------



## southforsunshine

selzer said:


> Yes, hormone tests ARE unreliable because the females body goes through all the stages of progesterone, etc, whether they are pregnant or not. And they can also have false pregnancies, where they gain weight, grow teets, maybe even have milk and have contractions. They can really, really have you going.


Happened to my female after she went in heat a few years ago. Weight gain, loss of appetite, massive teets. No intact males in the house, 100% supervision outside the house, no way she was pregnant. Eventually turned back to (mostly) normal.. Still has big protruding nipples that weren't there before.


----------



## GSDElsa

Whiteshepherds said:


> I still appreciate the link but when I saw it used fruit flies as an example my first reaction was sort of like this... :spittingcoffee:. After that I was okay.


Haha...you're not a science person, are ya?


----------



## cowgirlc

selzer said:


> Cowgirlc,
> 
> Please buy a book on dog breeding. Here are some topics that it should include:
> 
> Whelping problems -- you need to know how to identify when your bitch is having contractions, hard labor, and problems, because they can be serious.
> 
> Raising orphan pups -- probably not necessary, but a good idea to have the book present if you need it.
> 
> Building a whelping box, you will want one with a pig rail so that the bitch cannot inadvertantly kill a puppy by smothering it.
> 
> Feeding the pregnant bitch,
> 
> Weaning the puppies
> 
> whelping
> 
> heat cycle, etc.
> 
> I have three or four books that I consult regularly when awaiting a litter. It is nice to have them right there in the house, so you can look the stuff up.
> 
> But also make sure your vet is in the know and you can call them to ask questions, or if you have problems. Now, you should do your part, buy a book or two and read them, then if questions arise, call your vet and ask how to proceed.
> 
> Once I called the vet and said, she has been trying to pass the puppy for a while, I looked and I can see toenails. They asked if they were front toenails or back toenails. I could not tell. But they helped me out kind of like helping someone land an airplane.
> 
> As you can see, asking questions on the internet will get you a lot of information that is relevant and maybe even good to know, but not what you need to know. You will get emotions and beliefs. You will get people who have not been there done that, telling you what you should or should not do -- DO NOT OFA YOUR BITCH AT THIS POINT! And you will have people who do know what they are talking about sending you here or there or trying to give you advice. The problem is, who do you, a newbie, trust. Do not go with how many posts a person has, that just means they said "ditto" or "what she said" 5000 times. It does not mean they know anything at all about whelping and raising puppies.
> 
> So buy a book, or a couple of books, read them, and if you have questions about what you read, go ahead and post the questions.


*This is awesome thank you so much.

Cynthia*


----------



## vomlittlehaus

In the pregnant bitch, implantation doesnt take place until about day 17. At around 30-35 days is a good time to confirm pregnancy by ultrasound. Some vets can palpate walnut sized objects in the uterus (but is very risky to do, as it could cause abortion). I would get her the best possible puppy kibble you can afford right now. If she isnt pregnant, it wont hurt her to be on it. It will help the puppies with the nutrition. I put my bitch on 'Puppy Gold', made by K9 Power Products. I start her on this before she is bred. Kinda like prenatal vitamins, if you will. Since you dont know the exact day of ovulation, you will not have an exact due date. Ovulation occurs, the occytes have to mature for approximately 2 days, then fertilization can occur. The occytes only live for 2 more days after maturity. 'Normally' a bitch will only accept a male after she has ovulated, to ensure a pregnancy. There are exceptions. So for now, until you confirm pregnancy, get her on some good food. After we know she is pregnant, we can go into more details about how to prepare and what to have in your whelping kit. Find out from her previous owner, how she shows signs of pregnancy. Some bitches will vomit with morning sickness, go off their food a bit, seem depressed. Some show no signs. Find out her usual length of gestation. Does she go early, or late, or no pattern at all. Gestation from date of ovulation can be anywhere from 59-67 days.


----------



## Shrap

Or... spay??


----------



## Dr. Teeth

I know it's hard to seperate my comments about white shepherds if you own a beautiful white dog. I also can acknowledge that it is theoretically possible to have a white dog in perfect proportion, temperment, health, and abilities. 

It is the process I am uncomfortable with. I believe in ethical breeding which is thoughtful and continues the heritage of the breed. *A purebred dog has an intended purpose*. Humans create the situation in which the best traits are passed on for that breed. If you want other traits, you create a new breed which has been done throughout human history. So in 2011, when you have a white dog that was created by accident or latent genes left over from 100 years ago, you will have no knowledge (predictability) of the bad things that have also been brought through. 

The thing that seperates a true GSD from almost all other breeds is the care that went into selection; proof of working abilities, schutzhund, and a dedication to all physical aspects of the dog with predictable results. This only exists in small pockets in the US by people who understand this. 

I feel this applies to the OP's situation and while people were giving certain advice to her situation, no one mentioned the obvious problems with American breeding in general as it relates to white dogs, which as I said before are pictured on a website intended to promote the GSD breed. "Bad idea"


----------



## WVGSD

*Just bred my White German Shepherd*

Cowgirl:

You can have your vet draw a blood sample from Black for the hormone called Relaxin thirty days after the last breeding took place. This is a much more reliable test to determine canine pregnancy. I have used it for years to tell if my females (non-GSDs, but dogs) were pregnant. Every time that the test was positive, I had at least one puppy. It won'te tell you how many or give you an indication of litter size, but it does reliably tell you if the female is pregnant. You have to wait at least 30 days until the last breeding took place.

Shannon


----------



## holland

I would follow the reccommendation of going to the vet and getting an ultra sound so that you have an approx idea of how many puppies that she is expecting-it helps when you deliver or she delivers rather


----------



## WVGSD

*Just bred my German Shepherd female*

In my case, my vet does not have an ultrasound machine and, in my own personal experience, I have found them to be quite inaccurate. In years past, when I lived elsewhere and had my females ultrasounded, the results were quite mixed. One ultrasound told me that the female had three puppies in her and she whelped eleven!!!

The reason that I use the relaxin test is that it tells me quickly and inexpensively (compared to the cost of an ultrasound) if the female is pregnant. I then x-ray the female before whelping to get a better head count just before the delivery is due. 

Depending upon what services are available, you might have a choice in your local area. I just offered another possibility. 

Shannon


----------



## cowgirlc

*Remember Me - Hubby Breed Our White Shepherd*

This was my original post, below, I just wanted to stop in and up-date those that wondered what happened. Black had 8 puppies in march, all but one of them made it just fine. The 7 puppies will be 6 weeks old tomorrow and are all doing well, especially since they have taken over a large portion of my kitchen.

The families that will be taking a puppy home have each been here to visit and wait with excitement to take the puppies home. The vet has given each a clean bill of health as well. I will post some pictures as soon as I can.

Again, I thank all of you your feedback.



@@@@@ORIGINAL POST @@@@@@@@@

Just breed my white shepherd, new to this


Hello everyone, I have a six year old white shepherd and I just had her breed with a a black and tan male. This will be a first for me so I want to make sure I am doing everything right for her during the pregnancy and after. I understand that she will deliver the pups in about 65 days. She was breed on the 14th of march, should I wait about 5 days before taking her to the vet for a blood test to confirm the pregnancy? By the way I am not trying to become a breeder, my hubby and I inherited this white shepherd from a friend who could no longer take care of her time wise. As for the pups, they are all spoken for depending on how many are in the litter, hubby and I will keep a male and then the rest are going to loving homes of people we know are dog lovers. We have no desire to make money from the litter. So any advise from you guys would be great. I just want to make sure that Black (sorry, that is the name of my white shepherd) is well taken care of and comfortable and make sure I have everything I need to care for the pups as well.

Thank you all very much.


Cynthia
__________________
Cowgirlc Love My Fur Children!


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## sagelfn

[QUOTE=cowgirlc;2174404]This was my original post, below, I just wanted to stop in and up-date those that wondered what happened. *Black had 8 puppies in march, all but one of them made it just fine. The 7 puppies will be 6 weeks old tomorrow* and are all doing well, especially since they have taken over a large portion of my kitchen.

The families that will be taking a puppy home have each been here to visit and wait with excitement to take the puppies home. The vet has given each a clean bill of health as well. I will post some pictures as soon as I can.

Again, I thank all of you your feedback.[/QUOTE]

How is that possible


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## Whiteshepherds

> How is that possible


Everything is Texas is bigger. Maybe the weeks are longer too???


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## cowgirlc

sagelfn said:


> [QUOTE=cowgirlc;2174404]This was my original post, below, I just wanted to stop in and up-date those that wondered what happened. *Black had 8 puppies in march, all but one of them made it just fine. The 7 puppies will be 6 weeks old tomorrow* and are all doing well, especially since they have taken over a large portion of my kitchen.
> 
> The families that will be taking a puppy home have each been here to visit and wait with excitement to take the puppies home. The vet has given each a clean bill of health as well. I will post some pictures as soon as I can.
> 
> Again, I thank all of you your feedback.




How is that possible [/QUOTE]


I guess I'm not sure what you are asking...how is what possible???


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## sagelfn

how were the puppies born in march but only 6wks old

It is almost July


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## angelas

If you puppies were born in March they cannot possibly be six weeks old. March 31th, the last day of March, was 12 weeks and 1 day ago. So unless you meant May and not March, they are not 6 weeks old.


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## cowgirlc

sagelfn said:


> how were the puppies born in march but only 6wks old
> 
> It is almost July


Geez....what a dinggy I am my apologies, they were born at one o'clock in the morning the night of May 14th....

Cynthia


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## Gilly1331

Any pictures of your puppies. Glad everyone made it safe and are healty minus the one that didn't make it.


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## cowgirlc

Gilly1331 said:


> Any pictures of your puppies. Glad everyone made it safe and are healty minus the one that didn't make it.


This is a pic of one of the boys, she had 6 girls and 2 boys, and we lost 1 girl.


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## selzer

he's cute.


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## Myamom

I hope that they will go to their new homes with a written contract stating that they must be returned to you - at any time in their life - if their owners cannot keep them. That's what a responsible breeder does....they take responsibility for the dogs they have produced. I don't care if you know these families and they are gung ho right now...things happen. A responsible breeder will take every step to ensure that their dogs never end up in a shelter or being passed to a bad home. I also hope that it's in the contract that every one of them must be spay/neutered. I would make them pay a spay/neuter deposit up front...which would be returned after they spay/neuter the dogs.


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## cliffson1

Yawn


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## cowgirlc

cliffson1 said:


> Yawn


This wasn't very nice of you, not even sure why I am responding to it. If you read the entire thread you would know that I am against this kind of breeding and my goal is to make sure that now that it has been done these puppies stand a chance. Each of the homes these pups are going to will be having these dogs spayed and have no interest in breeding as well. I AM NOT A BREEDER, nor do I have a desire to be. The only reason I posted an up-date was because I thought some would appreciate knowing the out come of this situation.

The mother is being spayed as soon as her milk has dried up, according to my vet that is when it can be done. As this is the first time I have taken care of puppies of any kind, I had to do a lot of question asking and reading and spending money I did not have to do the right thing here.

My apologies for the rant I just don't like those that judge others with out knowing the facts.


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## robinhuerta

Question please................"Aren't you the person to *chose* to do the breeding in the first place???"......then please explain (sorry, I don't understand)...how you *"are* _*against"*_ this type of breeding taking place?????:thinking:
From what I've read through the posts.......it was not a "situation" that occurred....it was an "intended" breeding.....
*I don't get it?*:shrug:


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## cta

my first thought when i read the original post was...shouldn't you have the appropriate information before you decide to breed your dog? and why is there a  next to the part where it is stated that one of the puppies didn't survive? i'm sure it happens a lot, but to me that warrants a  instead. i might be new to the gsd and the forum, but i just feel like breeding for the heck of it prooooobably isn't the best idea. sure, the puppies may come out very good looking, but there is a lot more to a dog than looks alone. best of luck to you and your puppies. i hope they live long, happy and healthy lives.


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## cliffson1

Cowgirlc,
The yawn was following the post it was intended to reflect on. I READ the thread, did not pass any judgements, and frankly have a problem with impositions placed on a breeder, for them to be considered responsible, once the dog is no longer in their possesion. I'm ole school and cranky....I don't have a stake in your litter one way or another.


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## cowgirlc

robinhuerta said:


> Question please................"Aren't you the person to *chose* to do the breeding in the first place???"......then please explain (sorry, I don't understand)...how you *"are* _*against"*_ this type of breeding taking place?????:thinking:
> From what I've read through the posts.......it was not a "situation" that occurred....it was an "intended" breeding.....
> *I don't get it?*:shrug:



Hi there, I don't mind explaining at all, I just want to make sure my situation is not mis-understood. This situation started as you can read in the beginning of this thread with my husband and his buddies making a decision ''WITHOUT ME'', to breed the white german shepherd we inherited, so a couple of buddies could have one of the pups. I was tottally against breeding this dog having learned that in her past history she had already had several litters.

My understanding when we got her was that she could no longer stay with the original; owner in the city because she kept getting out of the yard and she needed a home. My intent for allowing her to be brought here was to simply give her a good home to live out her life and make her a part of our family which includes a yorkie and a chow, in addition to a few horses as we are in the country.

I made my feeling known about the breeding however, I lost that fight and she was bred. All of that aside, my reason for coming here was not to be beat up and labeled one of those 'don't care about the pet population' individuals, my purpose was simply to seek out information to care for and place the litter responsibly.

I never thought I would be judged and labled and yelled at for simply trying to make the best out of this situation and not have to continue to explain myself.

Geez all I did was posted an update from the original post, for those that may have wondered how things turned out for the pups. I really did not mean to have to defend myself all over again.

I did the very best job I could taking care of these puppies with no help from those buddies including my husband.

As for how the one puppy died, the mother killed the pup by accident 2 days after they were born. She is burried on my property.


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## DharmasMom

cowgirlc, I remember your thread. Didn't your husband also do this because he had lost his beloved dog and wasn't Black the mother of that dog? Am I remembering correctly?

Anyway, the puppy is cute and I would love to see pictures of the rest. Please do as Myamom suggested and make sure to make provisions that if for some reason one of the homes the puppies are going to can not keep them in the future, they will return the pup to you rather than dumping the dog in a shelter or rehoming themselves. This ensures the dog will not be passed from home to home. Also the spay/neuter deposit it a great idea as well. 

***To everyone else- the puppies are already here and her husband did this without her knowledge months ago so there is no reason to be snarky or nasty now.(IF you read the thread you would know this) Let's help her with any questions she may have and play nice.


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## Freestep

cowgirlc said:


> My understanding when we got her was that she could no longer stay with the original; owner in the city because she kept getting out of the yard and she needed a home. My intent for allowing her to be brought here was to simply give her a good home to live out her life and make her a part of our family which includes a yorkie and a chow, in addition to a few horses as we are in the country.


I am curious why you didn't have her spayed as soon as you got her, if you didn't want her bred.


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## selzer

cowgirlc,

I have a question for you. And this is not a defend-yourself-type question. 

Your bitch is older -- five/six years old, for having puppies, though she has had litters in the past and that does make it a little easier on her. I mean having a first litter at six years it might not have even taken. Might not. 

But my question for you, in your honest opinion, how is your bitch six weeks after the fact? And what have you done differently for her during this time -- what food, etc. What is her condition, coat, energy level. How was she as a mother? And overall what is your impression of her impression of the whole business?


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> I am curious why you didn't have her spayed as soon as you got her, if you didn't want her bred.


Freestep, I have several bitches that will never be bred, and unless they have a serious problem with that part of their anatomy, they never will be spayed. Not everyone spays for the convenience. Some of us even believe our dogs are healthier intact.


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## cowgirlc

Freestep said:


> I am curious why you didn't have her spayed as soon as you got her, if you didn't want her bred.


Good question, when we got her we talked about having her spayed that first week......then...all heck broke loose when the 'BOYS' got together, now I am just waiting for her to be done producing milk and I will have her spayed myself.


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## cowgirlc

DharmasMom said:


> cowgirlc, I remember your thread. Didn't your husband also do this because he had lost his beloved dog and wasn't Black the mother of that dog? Am I remembering correctly?
> 
> Anyway, the puppy is cute and I would love to see pictures of the rest. Please do as Myamom suggested and make sure to make provisions that if for some reason one of the homes the puppies are going to can not keep them in the future, they will return the pup to you rather than dumping the dog in a shelter or rehoming themselves. This ensures the dog will not be passed from home to home. Also the spay/neuter deposit it a great idea as well.
> 
> ***To everyone else- the puppies are already here and her husband did this without her knowledge months ago so there is no reason to be snarky or nasty now.(IF you read the thread you would know this) Let's help her with any questions she may have and play nice.



Yes you are correct, hubby lost his beloved shepherd, pictured in my profile, and yes this mother is the mother of the lost dog.


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## Tbarrios333

As others have said, write up a contract ASAP! It doesn't matter if these people are you friends, you need to make sure that your puppies are never allowed to breed again. I hope you have had them wormed because they most certainly will be full of worms. They still need flea/tick preventative. 
I also hope that you are socializing them carefully so that they develop mentally...


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## cowgirlc

selzer said:


> cowgirlc,
> 
> I have a question for you. And this is not a defend-yourself-type question.
> 
> Your bitch is older -- five/six years old, for having puppies, though she has had litters in the past and that does make it a little easier on her. I mean having a first litter at six years it might not have even taken. Might not.
> 
> But my question for you, in your honest opinion, how is your bitch six weeks after the fact? And what have you done differently for her during this time -- what food, etc. What is her condition, coat, energy level. How was she as a mother? And overall what is your impression of her impression of the whole business?


Thank you so much for asking about Black, she is well. She is energetic, her coat looks good and she is eating well. As a matter of fact I hope I am not over feeding her. She is a good mother to the pups always grooming and cleaning up their poop, its a joy to watch her enteract with them. The first couple of weeks I was the only one she would let handle the pups.

Around the third week I started supplimenting moms milk with goats milk to give mom a break, the pups go in a playpen at certain times of the day so that Black can go outside and run around . She likes for me to take the waterhose and shower her down as it has been so hot here in Texas. She is so funny when it comes to that water she just loves it.

So all in all mom is doing great, she is still of course nursing but not as much.

Cynthia


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## cowgirlc

Tbarrios333 said:


> As others have said, write up a contract ASAP! It doesn't matter if these people are you friends, you need to make sure that your puppies are never allowed to breed again. I hope you have had them wormed because they most certainly will be full of worms. They still need flea/tick preventative.
> I also hope that you are socializing them carefully so that they develop mentally...


The pups along with mom have been wormed, they have also been bathed and flea treated as they are in my home and I have a yorkie that I have to keep clean and safe as well. As for socializing them......oh boy..lol yes they are being socialized as I have also had them out in the grass and they have been exposed to my horses etc. They each have their own special little personality, its really interesting to watch.

I can only imagine what a breeder goes thru, its a lot of work, which is why I would never want to become a breeder and why I never bred my yorkie, I had him fixed right away.

As for a contract..thats is a good idea, I thin k I shall do just that.


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## WarrantsWifey

I do not want to sound mean, I know you've been doing great with what you've been handed. But once you've bred your dog and whelped a litter of puppies in your HOME, you ARE a BREEDER, YOU BRED those dogs. On a good note, I'm glad most of the puppies made it! It'd be best if you got the new owners to sign a spay or neuter contract with them, it's really best! Congrats on the puppies and the mom making it!


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## cowgirlc

WarrantsWifey said:


> I do not want to sound mean, I know you've been doing great with what you've been handed. But once you've bred your dog and whelped a litter of puppies in your HOME, you ARE a BREEDER, YOU BRED those dogs. On a good note, I'm glad most of the puppies made it! It'd be best if you got the new owners to sign a spay or neuter contract with them, it's really best! Congrats on the puppies and the mom making it!


Hi Victoria, I did not take this as being mean at all and you are entitled to your opinion, however, 'I AM NOT A BREEDER'. If you read this entire story you will see that 'I' did not breed my dog, all I've done is taken the necessary steps to ensure the best outcome for these pups that did not ask to be here. The decision to breed was not mine, and frankly please don't take this as being mean but I am now getting a little tired of explaining the fact that I was against breeding in the first place.

As for the contract, I just finished putting the little shepherd gremlins to sleep after a good feeding, so I can now sit here and try to find a contract online or draft on of my own to have in place once I start placing the pups, I think that is a wonderful idea.


Cynthia


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## selzer

cowgirlc said:


> Thank you so much for asking about Black, she is well. She is energetic, her coat looks good and she is eating well. As a matter of fact I hope I am not over feeding her. She is a good mother to the pups always grooming and cleaning up their poop, its a joy to watch her enteract with them. The first couple of weeks I was the only one she would let handle the pups.
> 
> Around the third week I started supplimenting moms milk with goats milk to give mom a break, the pups go in a playpen at certain times of the day so that Black can go outside and run around . She likes for me to take the waterhose and shower her down as it has been so hot here in Texas. She is so funny when it comes to that water she just loves it.
> 
> So all in all mom is doing great, she is still of course nursing but not as much.
> 
> Cynthia


I am glad she is doing well. It sounds like she is a good mother. I find that watching the interaction between a good dam and her pups is special, and people interested in getting a puppy from a breeder, if at all possible, should ask to come when the puppies are between three or four and six weeks so they can experience this. It can tell you something about the dam and how the pup they are buying has been raised. 

I set up the indoor/outdoor area with a method for the dam to get away from the puppies if she wants, after they are five or six weeks old. I also am a bit indulgent and feed her more meat, cheese, yogurt, cottage cheese and eggs while she is feeding the puppies. And sometimes they have GAINED weight during the puppy weaning process. Ick. But I figure I do not want them missing out on the best nutrients because the pups will take what they need.


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## DharmasMom

I am glad that the mom and pups are doing well. I think it is great that you are going to do contracts for everyone that takes a puppy. That will help ensure that there none of those precious babies ever end up in a shelter, euthanized because someone just decides they no longer have the time or patience for it. 

Now, how about the rest of the pics??


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## WarrantsWifey

I do want you to know that I read the ENTIRE post.

On a VERY happy note, Can we PLEAAAAASE see some puppy pictures, no matter how puppies come about, WE :wub: PUPPIES!!!


Oh, Selzer might have an idea on how to word one of those contact thingies! I know our puppy contract is kinda long! LOL!


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## rjThor

valreegrl said:


> Ugh! More purely bred puppies
> 
> Why breed her? 1.) She is white 2.) She has an iffy temperament and I bet no titles 3.) She most likely does not have her hips/elbows certified 4.) I bet that the male is the same 5.) No need!
> 
> Just because you have an intact female and a connection to a knucklehead intact male doesn't mean you should produce puppies. Great that they all have homes now but where will they be in 6 months or a year?


Maybe you shouldn't be so defensive or making any assumptions about the dogs, she is asking for some advice on the pups, nothing else, so let's be nice and if you can help her, then help her, lets not intimidate her...


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## rjThor

valreegrl said:


> Ugh! More purely bred puppies
> 
> Why breed her? 1.) She is white 2.) She has an iffy temperament and I bet no titles 3.) She most likely does not have her hips/elbows certified 4.) I bet that the male is the same 5.) No need!
> 
> Just because you have an intact female and a connection to a knucklehead intact male doesn't mean you should produce puppies. Great that they all have homes now but where will they be in 6 months or a year?





codmaster said:


> But the breeding already took place - now is the time to help her with the thing not lament about why she should not have done it. Hope it didn't take, yes; but also anyone with good post breeding advice for her would be most welcome at this point!


Exactly my point, why scare her away, she said she is not doing it for the money, she might not have gone in deph as far as the male dog or about their health or papers, but she's already bred her, all i'm saying is we should try n help her if we can, I sure can't, but I know alot of folks on here can.....


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## cowgirlc

Ok gang....here are a few pictures of the pups


Cynthia:groovy:


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## Tbarrios333

I would definitely ask the breeders around here so that you can get an idea about what to put in your puppy contract. Obviously the health guarantee part of their contract does not apply to you because you don't know her full lineage. You can definitely add things that would ensure the puppies would be returned to you as opposed to being put in a shelter should the new owners want to get rid of the pups.
It sounds like you have done a great job with the pups, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh or condescending. This is a hot button on the forum. We are really just trying to look out for the dogs.


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## selzer

No white ones? They are sweet. I actually love this age, even if it is a lot more work. 

My contract would not be approved by the posse here, as it does not require spay neuter. Sorry folks, I do not spay/neuter my own because I believe it is not healthy, I will not force my buyers too. Instead I list the pros and the cons, and when I think the best age to spay/neuter if they decide to do so. Normally, well before two (when I suggest it) they let me know they did. It is their decision and I do not discourage it. 

My contract is clear about whether the pup is sold on a full or limited registration, and if it is limited, puppies out of the dog will not be able to be registered. 

My contract discusses genetic problems and how I will make it right if there are any. I replace puppies, but I do not require that they give me the current dog back, just evidence that it has been spayed or neutered. 

It tells them I will return the purchase price at any time, and for any reason if they return the pup within two weeks, beyond two weeks I will take the puppy back at any time in its life, but no monetary compensation will be offered. It suggests that they take the pup to vet within the two weeks.

I leave some empty lines to write in anything. (One guy wanted a guaranty about the ears, I wrote it in on both copies, and we both signed both copies.)

I have a three or four page policy, but my contract is mostly, I will, I will, I will...

In my policy I have info, suggestions, and requests -- like CALL ME with problems and questions. 

I also provide pedigrees, health certificate from vet/shot record, food propaganda, AKC propaganda, all in a handy dandy binder that I use throughout my dogs' lives. 


*******************************************************************************

Once I had a lady call that the pup had a heart murmur and they sent her on to a cardiologist. I made a few calls as I had never had this problem. My vet had checked the pup's heart every time I had him in. When she called back I extended her money back guaranty for a month so she could re-test in three weeks. Her vet had told her to return the puppy as she had had some serious problems with her previous dog, but she had already grown attached to him, and the cardiologist said it is all there and looks ok, he will probably out grow it. 

He did, three weeks later, clean bill of health. I went to his graduation -- pre novice obedience judging 2nd place, and she let me know he got his CGC -- he is ahead of his sisters Dolly and Bear. His owner is awesome. 

I understand that you are not in this for the money, but if these are registered puppies, you should think of charging a reasonable price for them -- offer to refund half back when they get a title on the dog, or a CGC, or maybe when they get the pup spayed or neutered. I hate to say this, but sometimes the less you value your pups, the less others will value the pup. 

Not always. But if someone can come up with even $500 for a puppy, then they will probably be able to come up with the money if the pup is hit by a car or needs a cyst removed or its teeth worked on. 

Sometimes bargain hunters are the worst people to deal with. 

Good luck. Oh, they already have homes? Ok, forget all that, whatever you quoted you should follow through with.


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## cowgirlc

Thank you for this information its very helpful, however I am not selling the pups, the individuals that will be taking the pups have already given me like about 50-60 dollars a piece since they were born, just to help me with, the cost of caring for them while I have them. So I was greatful for that. Out of the 7 pups I have they are going to 4 homes, 2 of the families are taking 2 pups and then one of them whom I have names Bruno, will stay here at my home.


Cynthia


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## selzer

2 of the families are taking two puppies -- that may be interesting. I hope these people are experienced with puppies. Two at the same time can be much more than double the trouble.


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## rjThor

selzer said:


> 2 of the families are taking two puppies -- that may be interesting. I hope these people are experienced with puppies. Two at the same time can be much more than double the trouble.


:fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:....I agree, I got my hands full with one pup, and all the energy he has, I have to suck it up at times n make time to play n take mine running or out for his nightly walk, especially after a long hard day at the office...


----------



## cowgirlc

selzer said:


> 2 of the families are taking two puppies -- that may be interesting. I hope these people are experienced with puppies. Two at the same time can be much more than double the trouble.


One of the guys that is taking 2 to his home is a retired police officer, from the k-9 unit, so yes he adores shepherds and has owned them as well, The second family taking 2, is a vet tech that lost her shepherd last year, she prefers to have 2 so that they keep each other company. Then there is a single mother and her daughter, they have a 10 yr old black lab that they raised from a puppy.

So those are just some of the types of homes that they will go to.


Cynthia


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## Zisso

Even two adult dogs close in age can be a handful if not prepared! I know this because I adopted two older dogs that are 3 and a half months apart and wowser! They are fun, yes, but they can get into a lot of trouble in little time and training...OMG is it ever hard sometimes. I wish your friends good luck and pure joy with these pups. Hope you keep us updated!


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## Lucy Dog

You couldn't pay me enough more to take home two puppies at the same time. 

Unless these people have experience raising two puppies at once, they're in for a serious rude awakening.

Also not really a big fan of the people who get two puppies to "keep each other company". No reputable breeder would sell two puppies (at the same time) to the same home and there's definitely a reason for that.


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## selzer

kitties two at a time, gold fish two at a time, pigs two at a time, ok. Puppies, show me some clear experience at raising puppies. The police officer, just because he is a police officer does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I mean, if he is a k9 handler and that is his experience -- uhm most of them get them as green dogs, or trained dogs, not puppies, and not two at once. If he is not, it tells me nothing at all about his experience. 

Vet tech -- same thing. they can handle critters at work where they are all crated, or have their owner's with them, but it tells me nothing of their ability to raise two working dog pups at once. 

I know it is not impossible, because I have done it more than once. It is certainly not for everyone though. 

I love the finger's crossed smiley.


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## robinhuerta

To the OP.....Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
I did not read through *all* 10-11 pages at the time...just the first couple, and then the end. (_my fault for skimming through the post_).
So again...thanks for taking the time to reply.
Best wishes!


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## cowgirlc

''SIGH''.....ok..I think its time for me to put this thread to bed so to speak...I mean no matter what I have done here with this puppy situation there is always something critical. 

I really wanted to up-date you all and let you know Black had a healthy litter, and having absolutly no experience breeding, raising, caring for or re-homing puppies, I have taken every step I can think of and asked all the questions I could think of to simply do the right thing for the puppies and and the mom.

I cannot keep and raise 7 puppies, as it is this has been a huge 24/7 job for me since they were born. Nor can I control other people once the puppies are placed in homes. All I do know is that the people I know personally are loving and caring people, as for thier experience raising puppies....****....''I DON'T HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE RAISING PUPPIES EITHER', but I did and I am doing the best that I can, and can only hope that these individuals will do like wise.

Thank you to everyone that provided me with a lot of great information, I shall not post here again.


Cynthia


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## selzer

Look, I think you did ok with the litter and you have been doing a lot with the pups, but if you have been on this board for any time at all, you would see how much everyone discourages people from getting a second puppy or two at the same time. 

There are some reasons for this. This is not a dig, it is something that you should think about because if your people call you with a problem you will want to be able to help them. 

Two pups close in age, especially if they are the same sex -- two females may be worse than two males, will likely be close in power as well, and they might start fighting. This is no joke, and nothing to feel all put upon about. It is something your people should really be prepared for. 

Two six or eight week old puppies are a trip, the roll about they growl, they play fight they chase each other and all of this is well and good puppy fun. Then one day happens, when the one pushes past the other and the other retaliates and it is on. You can literally have a blood bath. I KNOW this is a possibility.

The other reasons for not having two pups at once is house training is a trip. Lots of people want to QUIT because they cannot get one pup house trained. But two -- well, you have to pick up two squirmmy pups and run for the door, and then when you get them outside, well, they want to play not potty. Bring them back in, and piddles all over. Ok, take them out one at a time. The one won't go because he doesn't have his buddy and he is not used to being out here on his own, the other one goes in the house because now he is awake and has to go. With patience and a good schedule, one can manage this, but a lot of people do not have it. 

Another reason is that it is not just double the training and socialization. The pups need to be trained separately and socialized separately. they get their confidence from the litter. This means they can act just fine in strange situations, because they have their buddy with them. But then when they are alone, it is a whole other story. So you need to train and socialize the separately -- double or triple the time socializing, and training, and keeping them from peeing on the carpet.

Another thing is they can bond more with each other than with you -- have not experienced that myself, but people swear it is true.

You may have to keep the separated due to fighting down the line, and frankly, most pet homes, are poorly equiped for dogs who fight.

They do get along, they grow older they get sick -- double the geriatric vet bills, double the pain when one follows the other to the bridge. 

And then sometimes one goes earlier for some reason, accident or illness, and sometimes that is devestating on the remaining puppy. 

Keeping littermates is normally frowned on here -- check it out, check out the threads. we are not picking on you. We are letting you know that maybe you should rethink that if possible, and if not, be prepared if they have issues.


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## DharmasMom

Awwww. The puppies are ADORABLE!!! Please don't go. While I don't know anybody who has had 2 gsd puppies at the same time, I do have 2 friends who both got 2 puppies at the same time. Both got beagle puppies- littermates- together. Both were rescue type situations, where the original owner was going to dump the puppies and my friends stepped in. It CAN be done, it was just REALLY tough. Just be prepared if your friends need support or to take a pup back if needed (but it sounds like you already are on board with that).


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## cowgirlc

selzer said:


> Look, I think you did ok with the litter and you have been doing a lot with the pups, but if you have been on this board for any time at all, you would see how much everyone discourages people from getting a second puppy or two at the same time.
> 
> There are some reasons for this. This is not a dig, it is something that you should think about because if your people call you with a problem you will want to be able to help them.
> 
> Two pups close in age, especially if they are the same sex -- two females may be worse than two males, will likely be close in power as well, and they might start fighting. This is no joke, and nothing to feel all put upon about. It is something your people should really be prepared for.
> 
> Two six or eight week old puppies are a trip, the roll about they growl, they play fight they chase each other and all of this is well and good puppy fun. Then one day happens, when the one pushes past the other and the other retaliates and it is on. You can literally have a blood bath. I KNOW this is a possibility.
> 
> The other reasons for not having two pups at once is house training is a trip. Lots of people want to QUIT because they cannot get one pup house trained. But two -- well, you have to pick up two squirmmy pups and run for the door, and then when you get them outside, well, they want to play not potty. Bring them back in, and piddles all over. Ok, take them out one at a time. The one won't go because he doesn't have his buddy and he is not used to being out here on his own, the other one goes in the house because now he is awake and has to go. With patience and a good schedule, one can manage this, but a lot of people do not have it.
> 
> Another reason is that it is not just double the training and socialization. The pups need to be trained separately and socialized separately. they get their confidence from the litter. This means they can act just fine in strange situations, because they have their buddy with them. But then when they are alone, it is a whole other story. So you need to train and socialize the separately -- double or triple the time socializing, and training, and keeping them from peeing on the carpet.
> 
> Another thing is they can bond more with each other than with you -- have not experienced that myself, but people swear it is true.
> 
> You may have to keep the separated due to fighting down the line, and frankly, most pet homes, are poorly equiped for dogs who fight.
> 
> They do get along, they grow older they get sick -- double the geriatric vet bills, double the pain when one follows the other to the bridge.
> 
> And then sometimes one goes earlier for some reason, accident or illness, and sometimes that is devestating on the remaining puppy.
> 
> Keeping littermates is normally frowned on here -- check it out, check out the threads. we are not picking on you. We are letting you know that maybe you should rethink that if possible, and if not, be prepared if they have issues.




Wow, I apologize, I guess its just been a long day for me and I got a little sensitive. I needed to hear this because I had not thought of any problems with raising two puppies, see ....I am new at this and I think I had better address this subject with the prospective new owners and maybe not give in to that idea. Since this was already planned ...hmmmm.....need to think about this..again thank you so much.


Cynthia


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## arycrest

The puppies are BEAUTIFUL!!!! :wub:

I "assume" that since there aren't any WGSDs, the sire doesn't carry the white gene unless there was a white/s in Black's first litter?


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## GSDElsa

cowgirlc said:


> second family taking 2, is a vet tech that lost her shepherd last year, she prefers to have 2 so that they keep each other company.


ETA: Selzer already said what needs to be said about why this is a problem, so deleted contents of post.


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## Holmeshx2

so glad you listened to Selzer when I first read it I wanted to respond so badly about 2 pups at once but figured you already felt everyone was pressing down on you so figured you wouldnt be as receptive. If you look in any thread about 2 puppies you will see everyone jump on the person about it its just not a good idea go to Leerburg.com and even there is frowns on it etc... We have done it before with rescues but dear lord never will I for a permanent situation the potty training alone is enough to drive you insane. Imagine the stress of potty training one then add in another furball running and jumping on that puppy right before it goes and making it forget it had to pooty and instead run around the yard playing while your outside in the freezing cold rain at 2 in the morning.. simply a pain. Oh wait you decide to take one out by themselves so it actually goes then come in and find the other one had an accident and set potty training back because it went inside from not being able to wait... even things that seem simple are just a pain. Training you get one into a sit only to have the other bouncing around breaking the other ones sit etc... I have followed this thread since your first post and was glad to see you come back and update so I do appreciate that but its on to the next hurdle which is rehoming and while plenty of people will swear up and down they can handle 2 pups at once anyone who has done it before normally will refuse to do it unless absolutely necessary. It gives each puppy a chance at a better life to be placed by themself in a home so they can bond to a family and get all the love possible without sharing with a sibling the pups get short changed when placed together and since they already bonded for 8 weeks they tend to stay more bonded with each other then the new owners which causes other issues. Just something to think about even if they swear up and down they can take 2 on you should think about the pups best interest and make the judgement call for the pups well being and not the persons feelings IMO


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## Mom2Shaman

Hi. Keep taking good care of Momma & your pup. Be supportive of your friends with your babies since you are familiar with them. Encourage (demand) all be spayed/neutered. Spay Momma & your boy. And enjoy having thing in your family. Best wishes.


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