# Muzzles & Bubbles - Aggressive Dogs in Public?



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In the other thread I started there's been some side bar discussions about dogs that bite or are very likely to bite, who really NEED this 'bubble' not being allowed in public, even with muzzles on. 

IMO there's a 'bubble' which is just a personal space thing. None of us like to have a stranger just run up to us and put their face 1" away from our face. That's not just rude, it's also very threatening. I can see dogs having their 'personal space' needs BUT they aren't aggressive and more then likely would not bite even with such an invasion of space.

Then there's dogs that will, have and do bite. These would be dogs that "need" this bubble to prevent an accident. 

So to start this off I'll quote an opinion from a dogblog (and yes, it's just another person's opinion so I'm not trying to make this out to be an authoritative statement in any way, just for discussion)



> Also as a note, dog aggressive dogs under control and with responsible management have just as much right to be out and about as the friendly neighborhood pal. Muzzles are frequently a responsible compromise, and proceeding to lecture on why the ‘vicious’ dog shouldn’t be out is frankly ridiculous and narrow minded. I don’t like being accosted by strangers and neither do my dogs. Respect the bubble.


 <emphasis mine in blue>

I can't link to the article directly, it won't work so the link to the blog is below, the article in particular starts with the title "Your dog isn't being friendly..." 4th article down, under "Most Popular Posts" on right side of the home page. 

I ran across this blog linked on a breeder's website yesterday and yes, unfortunately more bad language *sigh* Irreverent and cheeky...but it's the other side of the coin. For the record I'm on the fence on this regarding dogs *with known aggression issues.

*The Dog Snobs | We don't just know better; we are better


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

..and another question to pose to the folks here regarding dog aggression, or at least lack of tolerance.

I've now read a couple of articles (it's mentioned in the one above, 'herder overlords vs labs' which is kind of funny) and another article by a trainer mentioning that some breeds don't 'mesh' well. 

I know there are plenty of labs and GSDs co-existing very peacefully in a 'pack', the problem seems to revolve around when they meet as strangers.

So given that some of this tension/aggression is genetic differences should GSDs be taught to accept overly goofy labs (for example) bouncing into their faces without any kind of reaction at all?


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I think I have read all the articles you are referring to lol. I do not and will never expect any of my dogs to tolerate a goofy bouncing lab (or any breed) in their face. I expect them not to get overly aggressive, but I will stop the other dog before it becomes an issue.
I have had a few dog aggressive dogs in my lifetime and if I spend the amount of time and energy into training that dog to a very high level, the dog can pass a CGC and earn obedience titles (which my DA dogs all have been able to do) then there is no reason my well trained dog cannot go in to public places just because some people own ill-socialized, bouncy, idiot dogs that they cannot control. My dog will not go to your dog, can pass your dog on the street with no issue, just cannot greet other dogs. Which I don't allow even with dog friendly dogs. We don't meet and greet on leash. Just my two cents, I'm sure others feel differently.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Are you talking dog aggression or human aggression here.......the two are not the same.
In your quote above you failed to highlight that he was talking about dog aggressive dogs......in the other thread we were talking about dogs biting people......mostly......cause that is what the guy in your video was so annoyed about .......a dog that now has a bite history.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*" IMO there's a 'bubble' which is just a personal space thing."


*"Personal space thing" is much larger than most would claim....especially walking a leashed dog or off leash as well.

The "vibe" that a human gives off is obvious to a dog in short order..so I believe. 

I used to see other people walking dogs whose path I would cross and my mindset would change...anticipating the encounter and prepared for proper command and control....effectively.....I became uptight. This could happen 100-200 yards away....perhaps my "bubble" dramatically changed...??? Anyway, point being....being honest about when we all change gears is something to be considered as we telegraph the shift to our dogs.

Now, I hunt dogs down on walks to test the dog and my mindset...am I truly being calm and confident ??....no faking allowed....because the dog sees right through it......so far...the dog does better than I do...but I'm learning.

SuperG


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't think there can be a blanket rule on this. I think all dogs have the right to take walks with their owners in their neighborhood. 

If you have an aggressive dog, and the probability of a bite is high, use a muzzle. 

I don't think a dog that has a probability if bite should go to large event where the ability to monitor the situation is diminished. So no, a DA or HA dog should NOT go to the PetExpo. You don't have the right to endanger other people, nor do you have the right to put your dog in a situation that causes so much stress that they are likely to strike out. But you do have the right to walk your dog in your neighborhood. If it's in a muzzle, then so be it. 

Knowing your dog and their threshold is YOUR job as a owner. I know my dogs, know what they can handle. I never put them in a situation that I can't control or can't be sure of their reaction. Do I use some situations as a training tool? Yes. For example. My young boy gets wide eyed with kids. Has never done anything but chuff at them, but I need to get him used to them. So I take him to a kid park. I make sure to keep moving, we heel sit, play, make it clear we are training. If I get approached, I don't allow interaction. He is not ready. This park has maybe 5-8 kids and parents. I talk with the parents, explain what I am doing. They gave been great. Would I go to Busch Gardens?? Um no. I have to be sure that I can control and monitor the situation. I can't do that with very large crowds. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well as a "pet "person" and "former "bubble dog" with HA "issues" I took my Bubble guy out in public. Yes you have to use some common sense and no we did no go to "World Fair " type events.

I did Leerburgh "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" I used a fabric muzzle on him for a bit until I understood him better and taught him what I "expected from him!."

He got the message, I dropped the muzzle, when I could read him better and I "always" kept people out of his face! I did not want a dog with a bite history and "apparently" I did not need to use a lot of words to make it pretty clear...that "Rocky" was not on public display! 

During muzzle phase I allowed a child to pet him Black/muzzle,Black Dog pretty much the "muzzle" is invisible. By then a couple weeks, Rocky had no problem with 'strangers" he looked to "dad"for direction! I did let a child pet him (while muzzled) because he now knew what I expected from him.The mom finally noticed the muzzle and freaked! 

But during his bubble phase unless he was in fact muzzled sorry but "no one" was getting to him! They would have had to get by me first,and it was not going to happen, period end of story!

I will add same deal other dogs. Zero dog intros 'move alone dog nothing to see here! Today little dogs can Bark, Bark, Bark in his face till they turn blue! (Behind a face I was speaking with their owner) They get "Zero" response from him finally they just shut up! 

Pretty much as simple as that for me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think dogs have rights. Well, other than the right to be protected by anti-cruelty laws. Dog owners have some rights. But as for walking an aggressive dog in the neighborhood, it really depends on the owner's ability to manage the dog. If the dog bites someone, then, the courts will determine whether the person may keep their dog alive, and whether there are any constraints on the dog, like, a muzzle when in public.

Should people believe when they see a halti collar or a muzzle (I know very different) that the dog is vicious? No, but people will believe what they want to believe, so some people will give it the stink eye. Like they give the stink eye to k9s, and to dogs in prong collars, or to the people that are using the correction collars, flexi-leads, flexi-leads with correction collars, and the whole nine yards. You cannot stop people from thinking the worst sometimes. 

As long as the breed is not banned, and the neighborhood is not a gated community with a home-owner's association that bans the breed, then dogs should be able to be walked in the neighborhood, unless and until they bite someone. lf they do bite, and a bite report is filled out, then I think that animal control, as one of its functions, should be over there discussing with the owner, why the bite happened and what has to happen to ensure that it does not happen again. If that means muzzles, and training classes, and weekly visits to the doggy-psychologist for dog and owner, than that is what had better happen. Once a dog bites a person, its owner has displayed an inability/failure to manage the dog. At that point, the neighborhood deserves a plan for that dog that will prevent it happening again. 

If you read through the list of dog's killing people, many, no, the majority of them have a history of aggression towards people. If someone someone, the dog warden, took a trip over to the home, and explained that to keep this dog you MUST do A, B, C. To walk this dog public, you will need... Dogs are not all the same, the dog needs to be assessed and a recommendation should be made to the court based on the assessment, and then the court should set down the requirements for the dog, and the owner, if in violation of these, needs to have clear consequences spelled out to them.

All of us dog owners are affected, directly and indirectly, by people who allow their animals to bite people. We need to push back somehow. 

We can reminisce about how in the good old days, if we got bitten by a dog, our parents asked us what we did. That worked back then. It won't nowadays. I wish people would not equate responsible dog ownership with nicking the dogs' nads, and equate it with training, maintaining, and managing the dog properly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Either Sparra. Though human aggression would be a more serious problem.



sparra said:


> Are you talking dog aggression or human aggression here.......the two are not the same.
> In your quote above you failed to highlight that he was talking about dog aggressive dogs......in the other thread we were talking about dogs biting people......mostly......cause that is what the guy in your video was so annoyed about .......a dog that now has a bite history.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't think dogs have rights. Well, other than the right to be protected by anti-cruelty laws. Dog owners have some rights. But as for walking an aggressive dog in the neighborhood, it really depends on the owner's ability to manage the dog. If the dog bites someone, then, the courts will determine whether the person may keep their dog alive, and whether there are any constraints on the dog, like, a muzzle when in public.
> 
> Should people believe when they see a halti collar or a muzzle (I know very different) that the dog is vicious? No, but people will believe what they want to believe, so some people will give it the stink eye. Like they give the stink eye to k9s, and to dogs in prong collars, or to the people that are using the correction collars, flexi-leads, flexi-leads with correction collars, and the whole nine yards. You cannot stop people from thinking the worst sometimes.
> 
> ...





Gwenhwyfair said:


> Either Sparra. Though human aggression would be a more serious problem.


Pretty much no disagreement here! Some people should only have Gold Fish for pets!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ..and another question to pose to the folks here regarding dog aggression, or at least lack of tolerance.
> 
> I've now read a couple of articles (it's mentioned in the one above, 'herder overlords vs labs' which is kind of funny) and another article by a trainer mentioning that some breeds don't 'mesh' well.
> 
> ...


There is an overly friendly golden in Dudes socialization class. He is dudes favorite. The only one besides the little dogs he really relaxes with. I hope this friendly guy will help my guy to be more friendly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I hope so to. It sounds like from your posts in this and the other thread you really are making an effort to help your dogs be good citizens. Kudos for that too! 




shepherdmom said:


> There is an overly friendly golden in Dudes socialization class. He is dudes favorite. The only one besides the little dogs he really relaxes with. I hope this friendly guy will help my guy to be more friendly.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I hope so to. It sounds like from your posts in this and the other thread you really are making an effort to help your dogs be good citizens. Kudos for that too!


Hubby and I try. As our dogs come from rescue/shelter situations they come with baggage. We've tried to fix or at least modify those issues so that they can function. Dude is turning out to be the biggest project yet. It's nature vrs. nurture and I really don't think I realized how much genetics do make a difference. I thought since I got him so young I could teach him to be friendly and I'm not giving up but wow... every step forward means two steps back.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've had dogs that needed their environment managed, but I never thought of it as a "bubble" problem. I just figured that it would be easier on me and my dogs if we weren't surrounded by the things that got them going, and I'd avoid those things. If it meant walking my DA dog at 2am, then that was fine with me. Not going to parks on a Sat. with my child-unfriendly GSD was fine too, for example. I didn't muzzle them - I just didn't let them interact with their triggers, and gradually got them used to them slowly, to the point that they could ignore them. That was my goal.

IME, people (in general) don't respect _any_ dog's space so if my dog needs some, then I avoid people, lol. It's much easier this way, for me. I was at the vet's with my pup this week and a lady had her little dog on a flexi while I was settling up my bill. Her dog came around the corner and met mine without her seeing what her dog was up to, then when she saw my dog she was freaked out said her dog was afraid of big dogs. Oh well, then maybe you should lock the flexi to the point that you can see where your dog is? Or admit that you have a problem with big dogs that you're projecting onto your dog, since they're fine together? I didn't understand what she wanted from me - my dog was on a 6' leash. Hers was on a 20' cord, out of her sight? LOL!!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow has issues. I've said that before. She was attacked as a pup by loose dogs, I was bitten as well. It's a neighborhood issue, so she isn't great with strange dogs and especially strange dogs who charge at her. 
I suspect as a result of poor eyesight she also isn't fond of random touching, and we do work on it. When she leaves the yard for our walks, she is muzzled. I do speak to people, and I do expect that my boundaries be respected. I live on the border of a busy residential/commercial area and an industrial park. 
I do not expect people to stop their lives for us, but I do expect them to display common sense and decency. I get comments about the muzzle but more often the weirdos around here seem to see it as a challenge. My dog is in control, behaving and all we ask is to be left alone. I will happily clear her off the sidewalk and put her in a sit to allow people to pass if need be. Sadly they often follow, which leaves me 'punishing' my now frightened dog by issuing corrections.
Skittish horses wear ribbons on their tails to warn of a potential kick if approached and I have never seen anyone disregard that. So I fail to understand why people are so clueless about dogs. I am, in effect, making my dog powerless to defend herself by muzzling. Yet on almost every walk, she is jumped by a loose dog, threatened or assaulted by some stranger, harassed by teens, bumped with bikes or has things thrown at her from passing cars. And yes I do make every effort to defend her, and yes we have tried walking at 4 am. 
Personally, I would love to start smacking people.

Shepherdmom, I'm glad your boy has a pal and I hope it does help him.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I do not expect people to stop their lives for us, but I do expect them to display common sense and decency.
> 
> Personally, I would love to start smacking people.


I must be much older than you, lol - I don't expect anything anymore. I did once upon a time, but now that I'm old and jaded I've given up. People will be pushy jerks - I've come to accept this. I'd like to smack them too, BTW


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has issues. I've said that before. She was attacked as a pup by loose dogs, I was bitten as well. It's a neighborhood issue, so she isn't great with strange dogs and especially strange dogs who charge at her.
> I suspect as a result of poor eyesight she also isn't fond of random touching, and we do work on it. When she leaves the yard for our walks, she is muzzled. I do speak to people, and I do expect that my boundaries be respected. I live on the border of a busy residential/commercial area and an industrial park.
> I do not expect people to stop their lives for us, but I do expect them to display common sense and decency. I get comments about the muzzle but more often the weirdos around here seem to see it as a challenge. My dog is in control, behaving and all we ask is to be left alone. I will happily clear her off the sidewalk and put her in a sit to allow people to pass if need be. Sadly they often follow, which leaves me 'punishing' my now frightened dog by issuing corrections.
> Skittish horses wear ribbons on their tails to warn of a potential kick if approached and I have never seen anyone disregard that. So I fail to understand why people are so clueless about dogs. I am, in effect, making my dog powerless to defend herself by muzzling. Yet on almost every walk, she is jumped by a loose dog, threatened or assaulted by some stranger, harassed by teens, bumped with bikes or has things thrown at her from passing cars. And yes I do make every effort to defend her, and yes we have tried walking at 4 am.
> ...


I am so sorry you're having to deal with "the ignorant and the lame!" You can't go around smacking them all..you'll hurt your arm from overuse! 

I would look here:
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

It's what I did with my people aggressive GSD.

Couple of observations... don't like the sit and wait for people to pass thing, sometimes you have to depends on the situation but as a general policy, not what I would do. It' would be preferable to just keep moving..."nothing to see here dog move alone" dog learns that people of are no consequences. If you make the dog "sit" when people approach...dog thinks (in my opinion) people are coming I have to "do" something??

I did this it does work! You'll be able to "read" your dog and you'll be able to drop the muzzle, because you will "know" what he looks like when he is OK.

The muzzle is (a red flag) to morons having the dog sit is another, so those two things are drawing out the stupid and the lame! 

I used a Blk fabric muzzle on a Blk GSD, it's "not" as secure as a "real muzzle" but it worked for me. It was used as "back up" first line of defense was me!!

Don't know your circumstances your dog are where you live but...maybe once a week you could just walk your dog someplace else a less "A Hole" filled environment?

Good luck and you need to do whatever works for you and your dog, these are just my observations.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm glad you mentioned that! In red. I was thinking about that the other day. Red ribbons in the tail meant BACK off. If we were in the show ring, I showed 4H at the time, we knew we had to stay away and if we couldn't control OUR horse it was our fault. Horse people *tend* to be good about respecting the space of other people's horses. We didn't go around saying that we should be able to run up behind a strange horse and smack it's rump. A kick from a horse can be far more damaging then most dog bites too.

I've never had a dog that needed a muzzle, whether for dog aggression or human aggression. So I didn't think about how some people may react to seeing a dog muzzled. In the article I read some mentioned they are accused of being irresponsible by having a 'vicious' dog in public. Now you mention that some people see at as a challenge. SMH. 




Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has issues. I've said that before. She was attacked as a pup by loose dogs, I was bitten as well. It's a neighborhood issue, so she isn't great with strange dogs and especially strange dogs who charge at her.
> I suspect as a result of poor eyesight she also isn't fond of random touching, and we do work on it. When she leaves the yard for our walks, she is muzzled. I do speak to people, and I do expect that my boundaries be respected. I live on the border of a busy residential/commercial area and an industrial park.
> I do not expect people to stop their lives for us, but I do expect them to display common sense and decency. I get comments about the muzzle but more often the weirdos around here seem to see it as a challenge. My dog is in control, behaving and all we ask is to be left alone. I will happily clear her off the sidewalk and put her in a sit to allow people to pass if need be. Sadly they often follow, which leaves me 'punishing' my now frightened dog by issuing corrections.
> Skittish horses wear ribbons on their tails to warn of a potential kick if approached and I have never seen anyone disregard that. So I fail to understand why people are so clueless about dogs. I am, in effect, making my dog powerless to defend herself by muzzling. Yet on almost every walk, she is jumped by a loose dog, threatened or assaulted by some stranger, harassed by teens, bumped with bikes or has things thrown at her from passing cars. And yes I do make every effort to defend her, and yes we have tried walking at 4 am.
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey you. :greet:



Blanketback said:


> I've had dogs that needed their environment managed, but I never thought of it as a "bubble" problem. I just figured that it would be easier on me and my dogs if we weren't surrounded by the things that got them going, and I'd avoid those things. If it meant walking my DA dog at 2am, then that was fine with me. Not going to parks on a Sat. with my child-unfriendly GSD was fine too, for example. I didn't muzzle them - I just didn't let them interact with their triggers, and gradually got them used to them slowly, to the point that they could ignore them. That was my goal.
> 
> IME, people (in general) don't respect _any_ dog's space so if my dog needs some, then I avoid people, lol. It's much easier this way, for me. I was at the vet's with my pup this week and a lady had her little dog on a flexi while I was settling up my bill. Her dog came around the corner and met mine without her seeing what her dog was up to, then when she saw my dog she was freaked out said her dog was afraid of big dogs. Oh well, then maybe you should lock the flexi to the point that you can see where your dog is? Or admit that you have a problem with big dogs that you're projecting onto your dog, since they're fine together? I didn't understand what she wanted from me - my dog was on a 6' leash. Hers was on a 20' cord, out of her sight? LOL!!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just to clarify a couple of things.

My dog processes better if I give her a minute, again poor vision, hence the sit. I do not use it all the time, rather as an option if tension is building or if we are being approached by something unusual ie, shopping cart, bottle-picker, large group. Our sidewalks, where we have them are narrow-3ft, and often have little leeway, if she is already stressed I would rather move away and give her a buffer then have her perceive that she is cornered. 
I do understand that this is not the case with all dogs.
In spite of busy roads, off leash and 'at large' dogs are a huge problem here.
I opted for the basket muzzle to allow panting, drinking and treats.
I was first a horse person, and I have taken a huge portion of my dog handling from that. 
No I am not young, and I do suffer from mild-moderate anxiety as a result of manageable PTSD, so I would really rather not interact with idiots.

I think the sore arm would be worth it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Just to clarify a couple of things.
> 
> My dog processes better if I give her a minute, again poor vision, hence the sit. I do not use it all the time, rather as an option if tension is building or if we are being approached by something unusual ie, shopping cart, bottle-picker, large group. Our sidewalks, where we have them are narrow-3ft, and often have little leeway, if she is already stressed I would rather move away and give her a buffer then have her perceive that she is cornered.
> I do understand that this is not the case with all dogs.
> ...


Ok basically same things I did. It was cooler weather when I was using the fabric muzzle, so no issues on the panting. 

The full muzzles are better for the dog but as you've seen (from the sound of it?) it can also be an idiot magnet!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ok basically same things I did. It was cooler weather when I was using the fabric muzzle, so no issues on the panting.
> 
> The full muzzles are better for the dog but as you've seen (from the sound of it?) it can also be an idiot magnet!


Idiot magnet:laugh: 

To get back on topic, if as a responsible owner, I wish to muzzle and leash my dog and take her for a stroll through my neighborhood where_ I live_, that is my right. I have removed the possibility of her hurting anyone by muzzling and on leash, she may get rowdy but I have control. I respect others and will move her away if someone seems fearful or hesitant. I don't care if people don't like it, they are entitle to their opinion. If she barks or acts up, so what? I watch children, and adults, act up in public everyday. 
When someone harasses her or pushes to the point where they are _touching_ me, I have a right to be upset. I ask nicely then I demand. Get away from my dog and leave us alone!


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