# New issue Shadow bit someone



## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

My wife was outside playing with Shadow today and was waiting for fer friend that she has not seen in over a year. When her friend got out of her car and my wife put the dog into a sit and Shadow sat there which was fine. Well this is where the problems started. My wife instead of putting a leash on the dog and walking her so they could meet instead left her on the line we use to play with her outside. Her friend is from Japan and never been around a GSD and not thinking ran full speed at my wife and flung her hands out to give her a hug. Shadow did NOT take kindly to this and ran right at her and hit her in the gut knocking her back about 5 feet or so. She stoped after that and walked back to my wife. The girl was not to badly hurt, she had a small tear in her shirt and a very small red mark but no hole in the skin. She is not mad at us and did not make a report. Normally I give treats to whoever is over and have them feed her to build trust up. My wife never got to this because of her friend running up to her to give her a hug. I was not at home at the time so this is what my wife told me. What at this point should I do.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Since your wife hadn't seen her friend in over a year, Shadow must be younger than a year. If that is the case, I see this incident as a combination of puppy and human error.
At this point, about this incident, you simply appologize sincerely to your friend, ask how she is and hope for the best. Then, we need more information about the situation. Did Shadow growl or bark? What more went on? How did your wife respond? Where did the three of them go next? What happened then? What I am trying to figure out is if your wife was also running to greet this friend, how much excitement was in the air and how the situation fired up your dog -- whether your dog was reacting in exhuberance and play, or was defensive.

In either case, I would think you would want to work Shadow so that she saw such exhuberance in humans as a good thing but as something she was not to participate in. In the future, your family needs to be a more aware of Shadow and the dogs reactions to people. I'm sure you realize this.


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

Ok my wife was standing next to the dog and Shadow was just sitting there. She did not bark or growl that I know of most likely because it happened so quickly. My wife did not more closer or away from her friend. I think what set the dog off is the fact that someone she did not know ran at my wife. My wife has Cerebral Palsy so she can't run too fast. I think because she is somewhat disabled and I am sure the dog know this that Shadow was most likely trying to watch out for her. I have had a lot of dogs over the years but this is the first one she has had. Shadow is 8 months old so no she never met the girl before.


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

Forgot to say that I am going to send Shadow and my wife to a LOT more training classes to see if will help out. She plays with some of the kids that live close and has no issues with then. And she loves anyone that will play with her. I was at the park the other day with my wife and Shadow and 2 little kids ran right at her full speed before I could do anything about it. Normally she would go nuts and bark like mad but the oldest kid I little girl about 7 told her to sit toke the toy she was playing with from her and gave it a toss. Shadow jumped into the air and took right back to the girl. At first she would move away from them if they tryed to pet her and they left after 10 min or so. About 30 min later they came back and sat on the ground and she walked over to them and sat between them and layed on her side and let them both pet her and started licking there faces clean. I have never seen her warm up so quickly to anyone but was really happy about it. She would do what ever they told her to do and was just great about it. She likes adults too so it is not that they are kids. I can not for the life of me find what sets her off and makes her bark at people at times and other times not care at all.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think your plan of more classes for the wife and the dog is a good idea. BTW dogs react better if they are approached from an angle and not head on so that could be part of what happened here. 

I think you are right in that it is the way in which your wife was approached. Part of the solution is learning more about your individual dog. I know what works best for meeting people with my current two. (The next dogs may be very different.) Yet I remember meeting a friend who had moved back to town. I drove to his place, got out of the truck, we greeted one another relatively exhuberantly and with a hug. I then cautioned him about the dogs as I let them out. To my pleasure they evidently figured that if I greeted him with such enthusiasm, he wasn't worth barking at. They went on to explore his yard and basically ignore us!

Good luck and keep us posted. (I hope someone else weighs in on this one.)


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

Personally, I think this was more human error than dog. My dogs would have probably reacted the same way. Also keep in mind that Shadow is a baby.

I think that having your wife attend more classes with Shadow is also a good idea.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I agree with that too. She didn't know the friend and was protecting your wife, we have some GSD's that would do the same.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Earlier this week, I posted here (click on the 'here'). Part of what I said was this:



> Quote:I guess the point of this diatribe is that Thor was never 'trained' to protect me, but when he thought I was being threatened, he automatically (and very suddenly and unexpectedly) went into protect mode. I recall my sister-in-law being asked by strangers, "Does your dog bite?" Her response has always been, "He never has but he is a dog. That's what dogs do when they feel a threat. So stand back please and don't approach him..or me.. too quickly."


I think the sudden movement of your wife's friend may have startled Shadow, who reacted in a protective manner. And without the leash on the dog, he was free to move between your wife and her friend. 

I am curious though and if someone could explain, I'd appreciate it. How does specific training help in a situation like this? And exactly what type of training? I don't expect it to happen again but if there were a way to be certain it wouldn't by some kind of training, I might be inclined to drive the 80 miles give or take to the nearest trainer to work with Thor.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

That really isn`t acceptable. Even a trained dog IMHO shouldn`t defend it`s handler until given a cue. The dog doesn`t have the right to make that decision.
More training and keep up socializing should do the trick along with setting up that scenario under controlled conditions.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

kutzro357,

I agree...it is not acceptable...and it scared me half to death when it happened. Nor should it have with Shadow, the original issue of this thread.  But it did and I repeat my question::::

How does specific training help in a situation like this? And exactly what type of training?

For some of us, this is an entirely new world and the jargon, training techniques and topics are all something we've never been aware of before. Not all of us are 'old pros' at raising shepherds (or any other dogs for that matter).


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

There are only a few things that need to be done.

First, never put the dog or let your wife put the dog in a position like that again; period. It is the owner's responsibility to make sure situations like this do not happen. After a few similar experiences this was made very clear to me.

Second, GSD's are protective and the dog's reaction was entirely normal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your dog, nor with the way the dog reacted.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Just another quick note. I had a similar experience with my dog and sent you a personal E Mail.


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

Well I told my wife that if someone were to come over the Shadow must have a leash on and not just be on a outdoor lead. She did not think anything of it tho because that is how she did it with her other friend and it turned out fine. I talked to the girl and she said that she was not mad and did not want me to put her down. However she said that she did not run at her but walked kind of fast. She also needed 5 stitches and that her pants and shirt was riped. My wife is going to go to classes with Shadow, a lot of them and she needs to learn to control her better and be more of a leader. This dog will control anyone she can and like to do so. My wife is below the dog and that needs to be fixed. Shadow try's anything and everything to out smart me or control me and she is smart about it. I am working on NILF with her and it is helping some. It is going to take time.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> Second, GSD's are protective and the dog's reaction was entirely normal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your dog, nor with the way the dog reacted.


Really? That`s a lawsuit waiting to happen since you sometimes don`t have the opportunity to control a situation. What if that was a child and this was face level. Your dog needs to learn people are not a threat and he doesn`t need to react since your wife is the leader. Training with either treats or praise (which ever works for your dog) setting up the scenario first with a walk up of a stranger (dog on lead but not tense) praise when he doesn`t react. Repeat and repeat. Then to a faster walk up. Correct if he moves treat if he stays keep repeating and repeating.
This isn`t horrible but it needs attention now.Then just lots of regular obedience training.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser
> How does specific training help in a situation like this? And exactly what type of training?


by tightening the bond andpack order between ALL the members ofthe family and your dog. Obedience training is more than teach tricks and positions to a dog, is to let them know that thay are supposed to act as the owner wants in all situations and understand than the human is who is in charge.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

> Quote: Originally Posted By: Timber1
> Second, GSD's are protective and the dog's reaction was entirely normal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your dog, nor with the way the dog reacted.
> 
> 
> Really? That`s a lawsuit waiting to happen since you sometimes don`t have the opportunity to control a situation.


I agree. There are lots of things that may be a "natural" reaction from your dog. Peeing on your couch would be "natural." But if dogs are going to live with us, we have to teach them to do things that go against their natural inclinations. 

Some of the reaction in this case can be attributed to the dog's young age. For the next year or so, your dog will definitely try to test his limits--just like a human teenager would do. He's testing to see how much he can get away with, and attempting to insert leadership if he thinks there is an absence of leadership coming from the humans. 

You will have to increase your training and socialization during this time. Your "natural" instinct will tell you to limit the dog's exposure to people (because there might be another incident...). But that is also the wrong response. You must increase the dog's exposure to strangers, BUT-BUT-BUT--you must always be in 100% control of the dog. He cannot be off leash around strangers until you are fully confident in his response. This may take many many months of training. 

Ordinary obedience training will help you build the foundation for the dog understanding what you want, and that it is in his interest to comply. But at the same time, much of this is repetition, IMO. You have to continually expose the dog to situations like meeting strangers so that you can correct the wrong response (or better still, reward the right response.) The dog can't figure this out on his own.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Ditto that. Training is great-shaping behaviors, using treats to associate meeting new people with obedience and yay! food is also great. 

But a leash is your best friend. 

I know people with dogs trained to the highest degree who may not need a leash. 

But I know my dogs and know that given the chance to make a decision on their own, it will likely be one that I won't agree with.







So despite their training and their CGCs they stay on a leash when not in the fenced yard.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser
> How does specific training help in a situation like this? And exactly what type of training?
> 
> For some of us, this is an entirely new world and the jargon, training techniques and topics are all something we've never been aware of before. Not all of us are 'old pros' at raising shepherds (or any other dogs for that matter).


There are lots of different training out there to look into, Besides the basic obedience, one thing you may want to look into is training toward a C.G.C. (Canine Good Citizen) certificate. Several of the exercises in the CGC program deal with meeting with strangers (to your dog), meeting someone walking a another dog, wlaking through a crowd, and having others handling/grooming your dog. Depending on the trainer, you may be able to focus on specific areas where you want/need work.

There is other training out there, but this would be a good place to start after your basic obedience classes. 

But the comments from others about putting/keeping the dogs on a leash in situations like the OP described are right on.


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

Ok thankd a lot this info helped me and gave me some ideas. The issue I have with trying to do socialization is that I am havening issues finding somewhere to do it. We use to go to walmart and sit on the benches but I was told never to bring the dog back. Shadow wile she was there never even got near anyone but she barked and it was hard to make her stop. Plus one of the people that work there getting baskets is scared of dogs and I think Shadow knew this. He walked by 3 or 4 times and did not see her but Shadow let out a single bark just once wile he was kind of close about 15 feet away and he freaked out and wet him self. So that did not go to well. Shadow did not do anything else not even move but it was too much for walmart. When I was going there she barked at people and I could not find a way to stop her. She had a all her hair sticking up and just would not obey quiet. I would give her treats when she was quiet but that was rare and now I can't go back. I tryed a diffent one and sat on the bench and she did not bark but when a worker walked over they told me the to leave. Shadow did not even bark at the girl that told us to leave but you could tell she did not like dogs and she did not care if she was being good or not. So I am having issues finding places where I can work on socialization at all. I work 3 pm to 11 pm and most places are dead in the time I am around.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

The episodes at Walmart sound like you might have been pushing the dog too fast. With training I think you should only go a teensy bit past where you are confident in the dog's ability--anything more than that is overwhelming and counterproductive. 

So in this case, being THAT close to strangers was too much for the dog. Solution--get farther away. Park across the street and let the dog watch strangers from a distance at which she can settle and feel comfortable, all the while you're praising. 

Only when you know that she can observe people from that distance reliably do you move a little closer. If you reach a point where she isn't handling it well, then you moved forward too quickly. 

You could also do some of this in the car. Take her to someplace and sit in the parking lot. People will pass by, and if she barks at least they won't feel directly threatened. Even then, you want to set the dog up to succeed. If she's "failing" when you take her out in public, you are asking too much too soon.


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

Ok thanks for the info this is the kind of info I needed. I really wish I knew what set her off I will keep trying to find it. She is so odd. I have watched kids or adults walk or run right up to her and she did not bark or react in anyway. Other times she barks or acts hostile to kids or adults for no reason that I can see.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

My dog is very gentle, but when suprised can become aggressive. That is why it my responsibility to have the dog under control at all times. No one can guarantee that there dog will never do something unexpected, and in Shadow's case the dog should have been on a very short lease.

As for Timber, my dog, I never allow kids to put their face next to his, etc. No matter how well trained and friendly, it just isn't worth the risk.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

Everett and Lican,

Thank you both for answering my questions regarding training and particularly thank you, Everett, for translating CGC for me. I am such a newbie to all this jargon. 

Now my only problem is to find a trainer closer than 80 miles away....it's tough living on an island 30 miles out to sea and 70 miles from the nearest large-ish town. Shoot, it's 75 miles just to get to the nearest Walmart. *grins*

By the way, I never leave the house with either dog without them being on a leash. The episode between Thor and our neighbor occurred when I was standing with him at my side on his leash. It's just that the neighbor moved very close to me with his handful of sticks and branches swinging and Thor and he were separated by less than a foot. I grabbed the leash at his collar and pulled him back at once but the damage was already done.

But I appreciate people who read the posts and pick up on the queries that are written there. Thanks again.

And Phazewolf, is there a street where you can walk Shadow where you are likely to pass others also out for a walk? Perhaps if you see people passing by while out with your dog, you can train him to sit as they pass and just get him used to seeing other folks sharing his space even though only temporarily. If he sits quietly and allows them to pass without barking or tugging on the leash, you can reward him for that behaviour. I'm no expert (quite obviously) but that's what I do with Thor, and it seems to work fairly well so far. But guaranteed some of our members are going to correct me so I'd wait until I see what they have to say first. *smiles*


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Nor am I an expert, but doing what you mentioned in your last paragraph worked well for my dog, Timber. I also made it a point to introduce my GSD to my neighbors and their dogs. Some were leery of being introduced to a GSD but I think it went a long way toward socializing the dog.

I did notice early on that Timber was more comfortable at large events, such as festivals and Dock Diving Competitions, then he was when a single stranger and his dog would work toward us. I have no idea why, but wonder how Shadow would react in a large crowd. Just a thought.


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## luckyinkentucky (Nov 1, 2007)

Our male is 18 months old, and he is very protective of me and my wife. In this case I would assume your dog was only doing what was instinctive, and protecting your wife. She thought she was doing the right thing. Follow Luca_stl's advice. It's sound!


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## TacticalK9 (Dec 1, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: kutzro357That really isn`t acceptable. Even a trained dog IMHO shouldn`t defend it`s handler until given a cue. The dog doesn`t have the right to make that decision.
> More training and keep up socializing should do the trick along with setting up that scenario under controlled conditions.


WHAT??!!??

This sounds purely GSD behavior...a "stranger" (essentially what it is) runs up to my wife while they are outside and ill be impressed that my dog didnt come back inside with a new bone (arm or leg) while we cant expect our dogs to make important decisions we can expect to have to control them AND to know how to act while they are around us...(wifes first dog...i know...hard situation but its a learning experience)

the fact that the PUPPY just knocked a stranger over after the stranger ran at his wife in my opinion is no problem at all...this is a non aggression issue based on the information given

remember GSD's are supposed to be LOYAL, PROTECTIVE, VIGILANT and EXTREMELY SMART...if the dog didnt knock the stranger over and it happened to be a bad guy what would we say then???


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## LauraLynn (Dec 9, 2007)

There is a lot of great advice on here. As I have a nine month old male GSD and three kids I am constantly cognizant of the fact that I must be seen as the pack leader. Right from the get-go I knew we had a confident puppy who might try to be bossy if he was allowed to be. If I am challenged in any way, I respond immediately. For example: he is a food hound and will try to grab food out of our hands if we are even slightly distracted. I keep my eye on him and block him from jumping or snatching with a firm 'no' and immediately put him on a down-stay for a brief period. This really seems to be working as he is slowly learning that food that is not on the floor - : ) - in his bowl or offered to him is off-limits. 

Another thing he likes to do is try to take over on our walks. I struggle for the first few minutes but do not give in and he eventually walks very nicely on the lead. I think the walks and exercise that he is being given, along with the basic obedience training go a very long way towards establishing my authority. The walks also introduce him to loud noises, people, cars, trucks, birds, other dogs, etc. I also make him sit for his food, will move him away from objects that I want him to give back, like a bone, a toy or one of the kids toys, by physically moving towards the object until he backs off. I learned that one from Cesar and lo and behold, it works! No hollering or grabbing or repeating myself, just asserting my authority.

I think due to your hours of work you might want to consider having people over on purpose, maintaining control of the dog at all times, to help with his socialization. But the one thing I can't say enough is EXERCISE. If my dog doesn't get out for a minimum half hour romp every day he is much more difficult to manage. I can imagine it is the same with your young dog. And perhaps you could get your wife a few good books on being the pack leader with her dog. 

Finally, although being protective of its pack may be a natural instinct for a dog, I also think that if we are the pack leader and this is clear to the dog, that the dog will not feel the need to immediately bark, lunge, bite, etc. at every possible threat as it will expect us, as the leaders, to first give direction. but first we have to teach them, and that is not likely an overnight thing or without its setbacks. Best of luck.


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## sheplover04 (Apr 22, 2004)

I couldn't have "happened" on this post at a more convenient time. My 4-year-old GSD, Voodoo, has always been very protective of me. He will jump up and growl at anyone approaching me. He had NEVER bitten anyone...until Christmas and, ironically, he grabbed the hand of my best friend, who he has seen several times (albeit only about once or twice a year).
She came in with several strange men (strange to the dog, not to her...smile) to load up some furniture I gave her. I had put Voodoo on his leash due to the men coming in and out.
She walked up to me, a fast pace, actually, and reached out to pet Voo and he GRABBED her! Thankfully, she had on gloves and it didn't break the skin but did leave a bruise.
I was not only mortified but scared because he has never bitten anyone and I don't want this to become a habit with him (we always WONDERED if he would bite if given the opportunity, and now we know).
I will work on some of the things I read on this post, and try to get him out and around people more. We live in a secluded area and rarely get visitors, nor, with three GSDs, do I take them out much except once a year to their checkup and every six weeks to the groomer (no problems at either place; Voodoo acts fine with everyone at both places, even strangers who come in...why is that?).


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

You're very lucky that nobody got hurt! I don't really blame the dog for being a bit over-protective with all the strange men coming and going; he was probably overwhelmed with the sudden influx of people over and just over-reacted when your friend came close. I doubt that he has become "vicious," but it's still something to worry about.

It's nice to know our dogs are looking out for us, but it's very important to teach them that they need to look to us first before acting on their own in response to a perceived threat. He definitely shouldn't be growling/jumping up at people who approach you in a normal, non-threatening manner, and now that he's actually bitten someone, it's definitely time to work on fixing that. It's up to you as the pack leader to determine whether something is a threat and how to react to it. The growling in the past should have been an indicator of what could happen, but now that you know he will bite, it's definitely time to take steps to remedy that.

I have a rescued female GSD that had the same problem when I first got her. Being fearful, under-socialized, and dominant, she was highly reactive to people and dogs approaching me, even family members/dogs. I quickly nipped that in the bud with the help of NILIF, because I realized that besides being nervous, she was guarding me as one of "her" possessions (in addition to her food, toys, space, etc....man, she had lots of issues). Today, the trainer that fostered her--and nearly had her PTS--cannot believe the change in her. I don't believe that Sasha was that bad, but the trainer is one of those "all treats/clickers/happy voice" people who doesn't believe in ANY corrections. All I did was show her what I expected of her, rewarded her for doing right, and put my foot down if she wanted to argue. I'm the alpha bitch!









IMO, your dog is probably fine at the vet and groomer because he isn't on his home turf and therefore doesn't have as much of an urge to be as protective. No one is invading "his" space. He sounds like a pretty nice dog that just needs a little touch up on his manners in regards to guarding you (as his property). Just wondering, but how did you react after he bit your friend?


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