# Voting on vicious breeds



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Living in one of the most backwards areas, whatever, but pitts have been banned for years in Ashtabula City, now they are going to ok them only if they are taken from the APL where they are temperament tested and deemed non-aggressive. 

VICTIMS OF BAD PRESS? No bull when it comes to pit bulls Local News The Star Beacon; Ashtabula, Ohio

Ok, I am not going to say what I think about the whole thing, but for heaven's sake the APL here is a bunch of volunteers, wouldn't the city have to ensure that such required testing is also standardized in some way with someone who is certified to administer such a test? Remember, they don't run this shelter, they have no control over anything. 

So if one of these new pitties does bite someone, then they can sue the city for requiring testing from people neither certified, trained or compensated for doing so. What a bunch of nimrods. 

I saw our breed mentioned in the article. What next, you can only get a GSD from the APL?  Unreal.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I think humans are the most vicious breed. Humans kill for convenience, money, anger, whatever. Dogs at least usually have a good reason to bite.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Interesting. We just had a similar discussion in a thread on a sports website.

I have to agree with the regulation requiring pit bull ownership to be authorized and monitored by the local government. Simply put, there is no other effective mechanism for weeding out the genetics of those PBs that have been bred specifically to enhance their aggressive nature.

Here in Texas it is required that rescues be neutered before they breed, which helps reduce puppy mills and procreation of bad traits. That same rationale would be useful if applied to all PBs. In just a few short generations the breed could return to what it once was--a fun-loving family pet. Of course, it would have to be illegal to own a PB that hadn't been temperament tested or approved by the government. That is unfortunate, but it may be the only way to reverse the damage done by the Michael Vicks of this world who have created a bastardized version of a once great breed.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I really wish people would get rid of the Nurture argument... too many pro-pitbull people ONLY voice about "how it was raised".. but a genetic mess of a pitbull may bite no matter WHO raises it, and there goes their #1 argument. They should be calling for BYBs to stop breeding pits and leave it to responsible breeders who know what they are doing so we get good nerved, stable tempered pits. Just like GSDs!


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

It's really sad that people breed bad dogs for bad things. It prejudices certain breeds in peoples minds. We narrowly escaped having a ban put on pitbulls AND german shepherds in this town. My trainer in my puppy class says that golden retrievers have been so over-bred that they are responsible for more dog bites the GSDs.You know if Jas and Xerx went after someone, they would lick them to death is all. Sad.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Seems like a set up for failure for everyone involved.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaina said:


> I really wish people would get rid of the Nurture argument... too many pro-pitbull people ONLY voice about "how it was raised".. but a genetic mess of a pitbull may bite no matter WHO raises it, and there goes their #1 argument. They should be calling for BYBs to stop breeding pits and leave it to responsible breeders who know what they are doing so we get good nerved, stable tempered pits. Just like GSDs!


 
NUTURE is a large part of a dogs temperament! Including any training that a dog may get as well.

just like GSD's (and any other breed of dog).


I actually suspect that the pits may be better on average with people than GSD's are. At least with the few that I have seen in our local OB club. Many of the GSD's are shy whereas I haven't seen any shy pitties.

Not a good statistical sample but just my own experience with the dogs that I have seen here.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I know that nurture is a big part of it, but I feel genetics is a bigger part that is rarely argued. A dog with a poor temperament will bite much quicker than a solid dog, even in less than ideal situations...


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

It's really a shame that this breed has been so damaged that they now have to have these regulations in place. I agree that is *USED TO BE *that it was only the way they were raised,but now you have people breeding just because they have a pretty dog, or they want money ,and let's not forget these dog fighters who claim to 'love their dog' and the dogs 'choose' to be in the fighting ring. You are even seeing more and more people who take excellent care of the dogs,but are still being irresponsible by breeding dogs that clearly shouldn't be bred. I am not anti pitbull,and have worked with a lot of great ones,but we can't deny the fact that people have really screwed this breed up. It's the people's fault,not the dogs'.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Don't forget what the APBT was bred FOR--generation upon generation of intense linebreeding and inbreeding for gameness and willingness to fight and never give up. How you raise them makes no difference, it's how you MANAGE them that prevents terrible accidents from occurring. But people don't manage them at all anymore. 

It's true that they are not generally human-aggressive, or at least it used to be true before the Pit Bull got popular with the pet-owning public and people started breeding willy-nilly. It used to be that HA Pit Bulls were culled--not anymore. Man has bred this animal to fight and never quit. Should the dog get it into his head that it's okay to attack humans, it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

I do not agree with BSL, however. I think it's the owners that ought to be banned from owning a dog--any dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Shaina said:


> I know that nurture is a big part of it, but I feel genetics is a bigger part that is rarely argued. A dog with a poor temperament will bite much quicker than a solid dog, even in less than ideal situations...


Most pit bulls are not human aggressive...they tend to be very loyal to their owner, whether that owner is good or bad. The problem comes in with the DA part. In order to save this breed and restore it to where it was years ago would be regulation..meaning people who own them should know how to socialize them, exercise them, and even have a permit to do so. IMO this is the only way that this breed will ever be respected again. I personally have dealt with lots of pit bulls and none of them were human aggressive. I grew up in the city and back in the 80's these dogs would run the streets in packs as strays. None of them were DA either, the other dogs were not pit bulls and they all got along. Its sad to see what they used to be and what they are now. Pure human negligence.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

This breed doesn't even resemble what it should anymore. These breeders are on the first page of results if you type 'american pit bull terrier breeder' into Google. 

Xtreme Bully Pitbulls | XXL Pitbull Kennels | Pitbull Puppies For Sale
Pitbulls For Sale |Pit Bulls For Sale |Pitbull Puppies For Sale |Pit Bull Puppies For Sale |Blue Pit Bull Puppies |Pit Bull Puppies |Bully Pit Bulls |UKC Pit Bulls |Blue Pit Bull Puppies For Sale |Blue PitBull Puppies For Sale |Pit Bull Pups |America

And those are supposed to be the same dogs as these?
Caragan Kennel

WTH happened??


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)




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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

billsharp said:


> *I have to agree with the regulation requiring pit bull ownership to be authorized and monitored by the local government.* Simply put, there is no other effective mechanism for weeding out the genetics of those PBs that have been bred specifically to enhance their aggressive nature.
> 
> Here in Texas it is required that rescues be neutered before they breed, which helps reduce puppy mills and procreation of bad traits. That same rationale would be useful if applied to all PBs. In just a few short generations the breed could return to what it once was--a fun-loving family pet. *Of course, it would have to be illegal to own a PB that hadn't been temperament tested or approved by the government. *That is unfortunate, but it may be the only way to reverse the damage done by the Michael Vicks of this world who have created a bastardized version of a once great breed.


 This is dangerous thinking!!!! Mighty slippery slope you describe!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> This is dangerous thinking!!!! Mighty slippery slope you describe!


Amen


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, not exactly where I thought this would go but, 

first off, what this legislation does for Ashtabula City ONLY is that it requires people who want to own a pit bull to go to the APL. Now, where exactly do you think pitts at the APL come from? Most of them? Let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of the pitts in the APL are coming from irresponsible owners who got dogs from irresponsible breeders, most of them who haven't a clue what to look for in regards to breeding for temperament, conformation, gameness, the standard, etc. 

secondly, I am sure that nature and nurture both play a part in the problem of pitties and their irresponsible owners. Either can create a dog that will go after humans or small animals (that is what was said in the article, either/or). Now, if a dog has a problem that is genetic, that it will, without warning or provocation suddenly turn into a mauling machine, then how is a stupid temperament test given by the untrained, uncertified, uncompensated volunteers at the APL going to validate that that is simply not possible with this dog? 

If it is in how they are raised and handled, how are the APL volunteers who have the prospective owners fill out a small application, and if they have $25 hand them the dog, going to be able to tell that these people are not a good match for this dog? If someone wants a pitbull, they will know to answer certain questions with the proper answers regardless of what is actually true: Do you have a fence? Yes. [I have a fence in my kids' Little People Barn set, that's a fence.] Ages of minor children? None. Trust me that the APL isn't doing home checks. 

Yes the dogs will be spayed or neutered. They used to give you a voucher for spay/neuter, but now I think they perform the job on the pups/dogs before they leave regardless to the age of the dog. 

You would not be permitted to purchase a dog from a breeder. Not any breeder. 

And we can all say, just look at the breed, look at how badly it is messed up. They need to stop BYBs to get control back into the breed. But they can and will say the same about German Shepherd Dogs. Some of those yokels in the paper mentioned GSDs and any big dogs. 

Having the government (Ashtabula City's Government) try to control the breeding of dogs is scary.

Having the APL (NOT GOVERNMENT RUN/NO GOVERNMENT WORKERS) make these decisions is really bad. These are volunteers who buy dogs at pet stores (though would never go to a breeder). This is a shelter that euthanizes all their dogs every so many months due to parvo outbreaks. Right now they will not adopt a pitt to anyone living in Ashtabula City because they are banned there. The shelter is in N. Kingsville. 

Whether it is nature or nurture, the shelter will not be able to determine whether the dog will be properly matched and will be likely or unlikely to end up biting someone or some small animal down the line. 

And how many incidents will it take for them to do the same thing to us? Pittbulls are VERY popular. I really do not think that the fact that we have numbers will prevent them from coming down on us too. The fact that we have numbers just means that there are more and more irresponsible people owning (and breeding) GSDs. 

What is the top cool dog to have? What is the top dog for tough guys? What is the baddest dog?

Well pitties are well-liked by scumbags, but GSDs are a breed that is cool to own too. GSDs make us feel a bit taller and strut a little bit more. No one messes with me because I have Cujo. Well, I don't -- he's my parents' dog, but I just couldn't say no one messes with me because I have Babsy, though, frankly, in a dark alley, at 2AM, I think I would rather have Babs.

Banning the dogs outright stinks -- they have done that, that is where they are.

But half-banning the breed also stinks -- they are setting themselves up to have ONLY dogs from dubious background and breeding on the streets. If nature is the majority of the problem, then they are setting themselves up to fail period.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


>


Except the dog catcher that was going to gas him. Do you remember that episode? My my a pit bull, back then biting the dog catcher in the butt and hanging on. Is that human aggression. Just wondering because the dog you pictured is actually not a good example of what would work in today's climate.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I guess it's out of the question for the volunteers to try to contact a behaviorist who will donate a certain amount of time to helping them? I don't know how big this town is,but we do that quite a bit over here and sometimes even let the dogs go home with someone who is qualified to evaluate them before we place up for adoption. If the APL volunteers aren't qualified to fully assess these dogs,then I can see that being a train wreck! It sounds like there needs to be more involvement from the community as well,but it may not be of huge importance to them.




selzer said:


> If it is in how they are raised and handled, how are the APL volunteers who have the prospective owners fill out a small application, and if they have $25 hand them the dog, going to be able to tell that these people are not a good match for this dog? If someone wants a pitbull, they will know to answer certain questions with the proper answers regardless of what is actually true: Do you have a fence? Yes. [I have a fence in my kids' Little People Barn set, that's a fence.] Ages of minor children? None. Trust me that the APL isn't doing home checks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gharrissc said:


> I guess it's out of the question for the volunteers to try to contact a behaviorist who will donate a certain amount of time to helping them? I don't know how big this town is,but we do that quite a bit over here and sometimes even let the dogs go home with someone who is qualified to evaluate them before we place up for adoption. If the APL volunteers aren't qualified to fully assess these dogs,then I can see that being a train wreck! It sounds like there needs to be more involvement from the community as well,but it may not be of huge importance to them.


Ashtabula County is the largest and probably the poorest county in Ohio. We are very rural, we have three cities, though I am not sure Geneva qualifies as a city really in population. But Ashtabula is the largest. It is really pretty dead. The mall was thriving for a while but most of the businesses have closed now. Sears went down, Dillards, Ruby Tuesday, Walden Books. It is like a ghost town up there. I think the mall is bankrupt. Wouldn't surprise me. The best job in the county, well they just closed their doors, and those people are out of work now. That is Ashtabula. We have a dog warden in the county. And that is about it. If she houses a dog at the shelter, I think the county pays board for a couple of days. But that is about it. A lot of dogs are left free to roam, a lot of dogs are chained. It is seriously not a community of dog lovers, like this site. Oh, there are a few nutso's like me. But the general attitude is very much like what the man in that article portrayed -- anti-dog, anti big dog, little dogs are ok because even if they bite they aren't going to hurt anyone. Beaches are closed to dogs. Leash laws everywhere, but not generally enforced unless a dog bites. No dog-friendly businesses. People who take their pooch on a visit to family or friends are generally frowned upon or even thought of with hostility (but the one I am thinking of has other endearing qualities besides her untrained dog).

One positive note is a dogfood pantry being opened in Orwell or Rock Creek. Anyhow, that only amplifies the fact that people here are really hurting. They are trying to put an 11 mill school levy in a special emergency election next week, that will probably go down. People here aren't going to agree to pay anything for dogs.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Vom and Newbie, you are both so right! I am a big opponent of government interference in things that people should handle by exercising personal responsibility. But I don't see another solution. The thugs who want the baddest dog aren't reading any of this and don't give a flip about anything we say, and surely don't share our attitudes toward dogs. To save the breed we all may have to give up a little freedom and together authorize our local governments to collect and remove the aggressive PBs from circulation. However, a clumsy governmental solution to a problem will never be as good as individuals doing the right thing collectively.

And if that isn't depressing enough, if we regulate PBs, the bad guys will only switch to Presa Canarios, or (gulp) our beloved GSDs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Massachusetts bans breed specific legislation and the gas chamber - Boston animal advocacy | Examiner.com


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