# Female with domanance issues.(Long post)



## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

This is Storm a 4 year old working line GSD that I rescued from a shelter, I am her 3rd owner both previous owners said she was too much to handle. She also attacked and killed a small dog at the shelter. They were going to euthanize her but one of the employees called me and asked if I would give her a chance.
As soon as I got her home she immediatly started posturing and trying to dominate my other 2 GSDs, I stopped her and continue to stop her every time she tries this. She has since stopped doing this with my male but continues with my female. She and my 3 yr old female fought yesterday while I was away and my wife was alone with them. My wife had to smack them with a broom to get them to stop. My female avoids her but she seeks my female out and postures and mounts her every time she thinks no one is watching. Im thinking maybe an e collar to stop this but Im not a behaviorist and would like the opinion of someone who has delt with this before. We have been keeping her crated while we are not activly watching them.
Storm is an Alpha female that actually raises her leg to pee and marks her territory like a male. My male pays her no mind but she dosent try to dominate him anymore like she does my female.
She is a great dog other than this. We are progressing greatly with her obedience training and she absolutly loves to work. She also loves people and wants to be with me wherever I am. Is this domanance issue curable or do I need to keep them separate and find her a new home where she is the only dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Female to female fighting can be deadly, Once they start it's something you can never trust them with as they will most likely take any opportunity to continue it.

So as I see it, the two choices you listed are 1. keep them separated at all times or 2 rehome her with no other dogs

Hard decision she sounds like she could be a fun dog to do activities with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NO E-COLLAR! That can cause more aggression!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

missed the e collar,,I agree no e collar, you've got a typical female who is female dog aggressive and she is not going to stop most likely


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You are lucky that your wife was able to separate them...that they can even be in the same room is amazing...female to female aggression is really serious and can lead to terrible injuries and fatalities....

Start with absolute control by separating them....keep the new female crated when the other is loose...period. No leeway. You have to have one crated before the other one is allowed out. 

I have a female aggressive female...she has been ok with her daughters while they were young, but I would not even consider letting her loose with one of them now....I can train and show her in AKC venues, but am always always vigilant about other people's dogs....she is fine with males after a leash intro...but I have had 2 female fights and lots of vet bills over them....it is not something I would wish on anyone!!!! 

Either separate them, or find her a home with someone who knows what they are doing. 

Good luck and be careful!

Lee


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Crate/rotate, separate and diligently manage them. If you cannot handle this type of household, it would be better to rehome. 

Females can get nasty and hold resentments. Not all dogs will get along unfortunately.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

They are doing much better.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

One day has passed and they are now getting along? Wow.

What everyone said above is very true, you can have a deadly fight rather quickly on your hands with multiple female homes.
Good luck.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I wouldn't want to give up on this dog. If you aren't using a strict NILF program, I'd start that. Make sure she gets that you're in control. She looks to have a slightly 'tougher' and more serious background than your other dogs. Something that could give you an excellent dog! (Other than the same sex aggression, that is) Keep working her. Keep working with her. Reach out to the IPO community and see if you can find more solutions to same sex aggression. This is one self assured bitch, and I don't think her basic personality is going to change. However, I doubt you'll find a true working home to meet her needs where she's be (and remain) an only dog.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

crate and rotate or rehome her with someone experienced with working lines and female to female aggression. personally, i wouldnt allow her around other females if I could help it. very strict controlled supervision at all times.

I have an older female who is very dominant. I have a younger female who just wants to be friends with everyone. The older female WILL NOT back down. My younger female will hit the deck and try to avoid a confrontation thankfully. The older female will posture and start being pretty obnoxious and it will escalate to a full blown fight given the chance. She's not a small female either. I wont tolerate the posturing or attitude problems geared towards the other dogs, especially my younger female but if I'm not around, the older female will start something if she thinks she can get away with it easily. Dont take any chances.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

I used an e collar and was able to stop it before it started. After two days we have peace in our home again. Thanks to all who took the time to answer.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wonder why so many folks seem to think that female to female dog aggression is so much worse than male - male or uncommonly male - female agrgession?

I am not talking about the frequency of the type of fight - just when it happens.

I wouldn't enjoy breaking any of them up, but I would rather have to break up a fight between smaller dogs than bigger dogs generally (amd male dogs usually are significantly bigger than females).

I also have never seen any evidence other than people giving anecdotal stuff to back up any claims of sex and dog fighting. How about any reasons anyone has ever heard of this supposedly different in the fighting instincts of males and females? And does it hold true also for spayed females?

Any behavioral studies of sex/aggression?

BTW, I have seen my male GSD in some serious aggression toward another male GSD - and NEVER want to see that again! Didn't recognize my fun loving good natured dufus!

OTOH, have seen my then female also in a serious fight and wouldn't want to get in the middle of that either!

ALL GSD's can be very serious fighters.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Males fight for dominance - not to kill....they will often co-exist afterwards 

Females will kill other, I remember a thread on another forum where 2 who were raised together from pups started to fight....the dominant one almost killed the submissive one, then owner separated them. S one in a bedroom still with stitches and drains in, D in a crate in living room - D broke the crate, broke the door and went after the S one again, almost killing her...they ended up euthanizing one or both - can't quite remember..

A breeder in either NZ or Aus also posted about a female who tore up her kennel run, and got into another female's run and killed her. A breeder I know here in the states had a female who would climb over or rip holes in chain link to get to another female and targeted a particular one to kill....I believe that was the female sold to another breeder. 

Females go on a mission to kill another one. Males to establish pack order.

Lee


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> *Males fight for dominance - not to kill....they will often co-exist afterwards *
> 
> Females will kill other, I remember a thread on another forum where 2 who were raised together from pups started to fight....the dominant one almost killed the submissive one, then owner separated them. S one in a bedroom still with stitches and drains in, D in a crate in living room - D broke the crate, broke the door and went after the S one again, almost killing her...they ended up euthanizing one or both - can't quite remember..
> 
> ...


Lee, what you are saying is exactly my point.

What real objective evidence do we have about your first statment about males and females fighting? Are you saying that *females will always try to kill* each other when they actually fight? That certainly can't be good for a species.

*And males never fight to kill each other?* (not true just from what I see in my guy and not seemingly true from when a male pit bull jumped on my friends male GSD in a parking lot - sure seemed to be to the death till they were sparated)

Would female dogs never fight just to establish pack order? That would seem kind of odd to me.

And once males fight, then they live peacably afterward? Doesn't seem like that to me - what if neither dog is the kind to submit (for pack order if you will)?

Too much opinion about this and little or no objective evidence.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

cod, google has amazing powers. 
If you're truly curious about this and not just being obtuse, then look it up.
It IS well documented.

BTW, I do believe people who haven't experienced true inter-bitch aggression find it hard to believe, but that doesn't mean it isn't true, it simply means you haven't lived though it yet, in your own home.
I have, and I do not want to own another female again. 
Not all females are that way (out for blood - of other females!) but when you have one, you will know it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I will look again. But the "references" in the past were purely anectodal (just like the personal stories of dog fights here - true no doubt but just a limited personal history) and not real objective. I guess that you didn't know of any true objective studies either?

For example I have had has many as three adult female GSD's living together - and peacably for the most part with a few fgights over toys, food once in a while and probably a couple over rank as 2 of them were very dominant personalities and one was about 5 years older. No "to the death" battles (all females) and they played again after the fights.

Does my experience disprove the theory about female GSD's "fight to kill" and never can be trusted?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Girls hold grudges. To the grave. 
If you have ever lived in a multi female (human) household you already know this. 
Dogs are no different.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> cod, google has amazing powers.
> If you're truly curious about this and not just being obtuse, then look it up.
> It IS well documented.
> 
> ...


Thanks - I looked on the Internet and I found the reference that you may have been telling me about that proves your theory about female fighting.

Here is a quote from it - 
"*Female dogs are more likely to fight to the death than males because females have a harder time working out a stable pack order. Spaying the females can help, and neutering the males can help, but plenty of dog fights in the home involve spayed or neutered dogs."*

So that article gives a reason for why females fight to the death - they simply have a harder time to agree on the pack order!  And all we have to do to ease the problem with the females is to spay all of them.

And i did actually find a number of articles that explained it in a similar manner (of course the ones I saw were like this one - no objective proof but a lot of good explanation).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> your theory


So pleased you believe it was me who came up with it, but sadly, I can't take the credit.

I really don't care if you believe female-female aggression exists, it's your house and home, but again, when you have one such bitch that can't tolerate other girls, you will know it. You won't be sitting around here running people down, people with much much more experience with multiple females than I have, and more experience than you, apparently, will ever have. 

Yours is an extreme case of "yet", and more power to ya on that :thumbup:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

codmaster said:


> And i did actually find a number of articles that explained it in a similar manner (of course the ones I saw were like this one - no objective proof but a lot of good explanation).


I don't know that there is any objective proof, it is one of those things that females know and males should figure out quickly. Males may be more aggressive initially but we will fight to the death to protect what is ours, we never forget and we will always hold grudges. Males don't seem to have that hold grudges part. Once you have decided the winner your done.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've also seen it many many times where similar aged opposite sex pairs, where the female will take the upper hand, and not let it go.

We just adopted out a Great Dane to a Great Dane owner, and their existing dog was a male. The girl, from the moment she met their boy dog (who is roughly the same age) gave one snarl and that was it. 
She was the boss and he was the underling in that home. They now refer to him as "little brother" and she's the bossy older sister.

IMO, and yes, this is my theory now, girls try that crap with each other, there's going to be **** to pay. 
Because as soon as the lip goes up, it's "The **** you say!!" and boom, it's on.
And girls "see red" apparently, because that's how they fight. Absolutely not wishy-washy. 

And to use ourselves as an example again, we recently had a female mixed breed, part Pug, I think, who would leave the boys alone, run right by them to get to another girl. She just knew, and we had to adopt her to a no-other-dogs home or one with a male, never a female. She'd zoom in and attack, no questions asked. 

You can discount it, call it "anecdotal" or whatever, but when it's going on in your home, you know it exists.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> So pleased you believe it was me who came up with it, but sadly, I can't take the credit.
> 
> I really don't care if you believe female-female aggression exists, it's your house and home, but again, when you have one such bitch that can't tolerate other girls, you will know it. You won't be sitting around here running people down, people with much much more experience with multiple females than I have, and more experience than you, apparently, will ever have.
> 
> Yours is an extreme case of "yet", and more power to ya on that :thumbup:


*Likewise it doesn't make any difference what you think or believe!*

But it would be really nice if you would actually read what I wrote (for example *where did I ever say that female-female dog aggression doesn't exist?).* 

Could you please just point that out? 

If you can't, it would also be really nice if you could force yourself to stop misquoting or misinferring what I said. (although it does seem to make it easier for you to respond!).

And likewise, where in this thread did I "running people down"? Can you please point the post where I ran anybody down about female-female aggression versus male-male aggression?

Just out of curiosity, is a female dog who couldn't get along with another female dog that you owned the basis for your belief that "Females fight to the death" belief? I am truly sorry that you may have had such a bad experience! That had to be very difficult.

And i certainly do hope that you never have the misfortune of having a male dog who can't get along with another male dog as these dogs also clearly exist (whether you have ever owned one or not!). 

Then you might unfortunately have to learn that male dogs can also sometimes want to "fight to the death". It is a very bad way to learn that though, so hopefully you will not ever own such a dog!

You are correct though in citing my limited experience - in my 40 or so years of owning and training GSD's: I have only had about 8 or 9 adults and some more puppies and sub adults, with at most 3 at a time so clearly I don't have a great deal of experience with GSD's.

So all I can relate is my limited experience and that of the fairly numerous friends with dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

have lived with intact and spayed females that got along great with no or only a couple of minor scuffles. This worked great for the first 20 years I had dogs. Then I had sisters. Alexis is my main problem. Spayed female, btw. She is an instigator and has gone after Vala, went after Deja (until Deja got her down on the ground and was shaking the you know what our of her) and picks on Elena. Vala, for the most part doesn't want to fight and I can stop her easily. Couple of times she decided to get nasty with her mother just a yell stopped it from escalating. She and Deja have scuffled. I was able to stop it but Vala got a cut over her eye and I decided that vet bills or badly injured dogs was not worth those two ever being loose together again. Same with Deja and Elena. It isn't worth it to me to have either injured though they have gotten loose together and just postured, I separated them and all was fine. There is no hate involved. Just dominant females. They can visit through the crate doors, sniff noses, etc and there is no growling or nasty behavior. 

Deja and Alexis HATE each other. That fight would be to the death (of Alexis since she is old and crippled). It happened once last year when I was in a rush and didn't get the door on Alexis' crate latched all the way (her crate is now latched and snapped closed at all times since he figured out how to pop the door open). It happened so fast there was no time to react. Only thing that stopped the fight was the location and that I was able to push Alexis back into a crate and crush both their heads in the door until they let go. Deja had a couple of nicks. Alexis ended up with a bite on the leg that left enough blood in my kitchen that one would have thought I had slaughtered someone. I had several superficial bites on my hands and bruising on my left hand and a leg from trying to get between them and the wall. I was also lucky. 

Right now Vala and Elena run together. Hopefully that continues to be that way. Would make life easier. If they snark they will stop with a loud "knock it off". Both Elena and Vala are good with dogs outside their pack and will play with other dogs. Deja used to be, but she has gotten a bit less tolerant as she got older. 

I tend to like to work extremely dominant bitches which may be why I now have more issues than I did with my first dogs. 

I have never owned multiple males, but a friend did (he had 4 or 5 at one time) and they could all run together. His dogs are very much under his thumb and he a no tolerance rule in his "pack". 

So, more anecdotal evidence which is the only type you will ever find.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

When you ask why f-f aggression is "such a big deal", people reply and then you say things like "Too much opinion about this and little or no objective evidence..." as if you are just waiting for someone to reply to your question so you can discount them, yes, I see that as "running them down".
Especially someone who has had multiple dogs, like Lee, who probably owns, concurrently, more dogs than you've owned successively in your life. 

And now, I'm off to sled (we don't see snow that much, gotta play while we can) so you can bait someone else for a while


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I have had male-male aggression which was VERY scary. However, I agree that 2 bitches take it to another level. My pug has gotten into it with our old lady. It's exactly like that... "WHAT did you say?!?!?" and it IS on! They will NOT stop unless someone steps in and physically breaks it up. If the pug and Grim get into it, a vocal intervention will stop it. It's not ALL females, it's dominant females. It's not about order, rank, or anything else. It's just about 2 bitches who decide it's time to scrap. They do live together OK after a scrap, but they will do it again and again. It's a look that sets it off. Someone gets too upity. The male-female fights have more of 'substance' to them, and it's not frequent. In day to day life, they still have their weeks of 'someone gives'. With the bitches, no one gives. Ever. Not because they're female, but because of a dominant female in the mix. Lee has it exactly right. That's just how they are. Argue it to death, won't change a thing. Oh, and all females in the house were spayed as pups.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

A quick update. Using e-collars any time either of the dogs approached the other posturing (which was how the fights started) I would give a verbal and physical correction using the collar. I did this for a couple of days, anytime they were in a room together I was there controlling the collars. We have had no more aggression issues with these two. Socialization with the training groiup is going well and we are going to test for her CGC in a couple weeks.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

you do not talk about pitbulls when talking about same sex aggression pits are bred for dog fighting of course either sex will fight to the death.


when talking gsds i agree after owning a female they are 10x worse when it comes to being violent towards another dog. Everything is fine but when they argue there is nothing but blood and you will never get one off the other. With my male or males i know people never have to worry about that as far as i know when they fight they dont put holes into each other then wag their tails like nothing went on.

I also noticed some females will just keep going and not stop while u are pulling on their bag legs they will still be hanging on with their jaws. Or sissor lock each other.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Jag did you say your pug is fighting your gsd? lol that is too funny.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

**comments removed by Admin. Really nothing to do with this discussion**

With gsds you will see a differance between sexes who are both dominant. Not every single female we are just talking dominant or just certain individuals probably more common from working lines im guessing.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Is F-F aggression something you can try to predict by previous behavior from other females in a bloodline or does it just pop up randomly?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Is F-F aggression something you can try to predict by previous behavior from other females in a bloodline or does it just pop up randomly?


From what I have seen and heard, some folks would certainly say this is the case (same with males and dominance).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Is F-F aggression something you can try to predict by previous behavior from other females in a bloodline or does it just pop up randomly?


Yes, I think it is something you might be able to predict (nothing is 100%) if you know enough about the females in the bloodline. 

As I said earlier, either in this thread or in another thread, I did not have problems until I had related bitches. Even in my case it is mostly (with only the one exception) a dominance issue where I keep them apart more for piece of mind than because they hate each other and want to kill each other.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Female to female fighting can be deadly, Once they start it's something you can never trust them with as they will most likely take any opportunity to continue it.
> 
> So as I see it, the two choices you listed are 1. keep them separated at all times or 2 rehome her with no other dogs
> 
> Hard decision she sounds like she could be a fun dog to do activities with.


My two dominance bitches fought. No fights in a year, and they were fighting constantly. I dropped the hammer... They got corrected for so much as looking at each other for a while. Now we have no fights, and they've settled into who's dominant and accepted their places. 

OP You need to correct either for looking or posturing at all. Once the behavior is in full swing its not effective... You must correct at the dogs first desire to endure in the behavior. No ecollars! The dog MUST know the correction came from you, the layer of the laws and leader of the household. The dogs must be separated when you are not present to address the behaviors. Over time when its clear to the dogs what you expect, it will stop. You probably won't make them cuddle buddies, but you can reliably stop any aggression.

Would be worth teaching yourself and your wife how to break up a dog fight. I broke one up last night and the other person got tagged and went to the ER afterwards. Dog fights are dangerous for everyone.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Yes, I think it is something you might be able to predict (nothing is 100%) if you know enough about the females in the bloodline.
> 
> As I said earlier, either in this thread or in another thread, I did not have problems until I had related bitches. Even in my case it is mostly (with only the one exception) a dominance issue where I keep them apart more for piece of mind than because they hate each other and want to kill each other.


My two bitches are mother and daughter lol


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hunterisgreat, I posted an update. The aggression has been stopped but I did use e-collars and they worked very well. I really do not understand the reluctance to use e-collars.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ed, if your wife could separate them with a broom, they have not gotten into a fight to the death yet. An e-collar to correct them before they think about trying to eat each other may work so long as you are right there holding the control. If you leave them alone or with someone else, it can be a different story. It can also be that your bitches had a normal dog-scrimage that would have been fine. Hard to say. But a bitch who is seriously fighting with another bitch will not stop because someone beats them apart with a broom stick, that or working dogs aren't as tough/drivy as show dogs that I have experience with.

Also, if they are in the middle of the fight, the e-collar isn't going to stop them. 

Babs and Jenna are littermates. They shared a kennel until they were 15 months old. Also loose in the house/yard, etc. No problems, no fights. I did notice that Jenna was doing a lot of posturing and Babs would be very submissive so I separated them. Fast forward 5.5 years. Jenna is in with Hepzibah her daughter, she has the puppy pen so its in/out and has a baby gate separating it from the living room. Babs is lying on my bed. I opened the gate to let Hepsi in, and Jenna squeezed through the gate, through the shower board barrier separating the living room from the hall to the bedroom and was up on my bed posturing over Babs. 

There was not a fight. But there could have been a fight. 

When Arwen and Jasmine went at it, they wanted to kill each other. I have separated males fighting. Separating females, _should _be easier because they are smaller, but it isn't. It's kind of like saying you would rather face a Malinois than a GSD because the GSD is bigger.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

I didnt wait for a fight to start before giving the correction. As soon as they started posturing they got a correction. They are great together now. They spend all day together now without incident.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

it sounds like eds one bitch is happy to be submissive to his new dog now. I still would never leave them alone in case the new one wants to end the other ones life. Shes being good now but just watch lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They say you can never trust them if there is blood between them. I don't know. Just because they are ok for a few days doesn't mean that one won't walk too close to a food dish, or bump the other walking through a doorway, or come rush to see an owner. Bitch fights start fast. I would not leave them together unattended. People have come home to blood baths where they have found one dead and the other needing to be euthanized -- to me that would be my worse nightmare.

ETA: I think as the years add experience to us, some of us may be capable of reading the temperament in our bitches well enough to determine that these two will be fine left together, while these other two had better be crated. Right now I am leaving two bitches together. They are 7 and 10 months old. They seem to be great together and their temperaments jell. It is a risk, but I think a slight risk. 

It will not hurt to crate one or both of your dogs when you cannot supervise, but it can be seriously bad if you do not. I think you weigh the options. If the issue was serious, a few days training with whatever tool will not eliminate it.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, my female pug has taken Grim on a few times. She's fairly stupid. When he's had enough of her, he stands over her until she submits. She has gotten into it with my wife's female a few times, which requires immediate intervention. They will be fine for awhile, but then get into it over something random. Those fights are ugly, where the fights with Grim and my pug are just comical.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i have a question selzer if one bitch is clearly stronger and is dominating the fight right away and the other bitch starts begging for mercy do you find seperating the fight much easier then? then it just turns into pulling one dog off the other? A lot of fights are not an even match one wil just lay there and scream and want a human to rescue it. I think the OP first bitch is scared of his new dog. Usually it is never a even or fair fight one bitch is the clear stronger one. THe real nasty fights is when there is no stronger bitch that they can figure out and both bitches are even matched and ready to fight till death.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

pets4life said:


> i have a question selzer if one bitch is clearly stronger and is dominating the fight right away and the other bitch starts begging for mercy do you find seperating the fight much easier then? then it just turns into pulling one dog off the other? A lot of fights are not an even match one wil just lay there and scream and want a human to rescue it. I think the OP first bitch is scared of his new dog. Usually it is never a even or fair fight one bitch is the clear stronger one. THe real nasty fights is when there is no stronger bitch that they can figure out and both bitches are even matched and ready to fight till death.


I have a human brain. If I was 5'2" and 120# and some Roller Derby Queen who was 6'2" and 240#, no I am not going to fight. But dogs are totally different. Sometimes how big they are means nothing. I think there is something to be said for pack order. 

There are the dominant or alpha bitches who basically aren't looking to fight, who just carry themselves such that they are the queen and that is the end of it. 

Then there are the beta bitches. These are the dogs that fight. They are always trying to be the top bitch, but they are not necessarily born that way. They will submit to a true alpha bitch, but if a true alpha is several years younger or just reaching maturity, they will try to hang onto their position in the pack, particularly if they currently are the alpha because the pack is small -- nasty fight. 

There are bitches that are just at ease with the status quo. These bitches are not looking to fight. They are not overly submissive or overly dominant. They are probably fine in a multi-dog pack. 

There are omega bitches. These are the ones that are totally submissive. I almost think that they create some of the issues. It is like they invite the bullying: "are you going to eat me?"  

I think that fights happen when you have dogs that are close in power level. Two beta bitches, two alpha bitches. I think you can have fights when you have a clear distinction between dogs but you try to treat them totally equally. 

Some bitches have the green gene. Some call it resource guarding, and the resource is the owner. The bitches will get along fine until the person pays attention to the Other Bitch. Then things are not good, not good at all. You can actually hear the pain in the aggressor-bitches fury as she attacks the object of the person's affection. 

I love bitches. They are fun, they are easy to train, they keep me on my toes, they can be sneaky, they have LOOOOOOOONG memories. They can wait for the right time to do a thing, and then they can act fast. 

If one of the bitches clearly does not want to fight, then yes, you can grab a tail and haul the other away without much trouble at all. Usually I find this mostly in adolescent bitches. In mature bitches not so much, but I have a limited pack most of whom are related in some way, so I might just not have had a truly submissive bitch that doesn't want to fight. 

I think the dominant/totally submissive fights unless they are exacerbated by humans trying to force equality, are more like bullying. It can make the lesser dog even lesser but is not likely to cause a death between the dogs unless the more dominant bitch has wires crossed in her head. 

The dangerous fights are between bitches who are wannabe alphas.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

thanks selzer 

who are the bitches that will take on male dogs in seconds? I have seen a bitch walk right up to dogs (males) stare them down and just start hammering into them once in training even by mistake? Are these usually the beta bitches? 

Another thing i noticed is this okay 2 bitches meet one bitch is dead serious the other is but not serious enough. The dead serious bitch actually starts biting for real in the the fight while the other bitch or dog doesnt this is when the screaming happens. The other animal Wasn't expecting a real fight with real jaw pressure so might have been stunned or something?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That's a great explanation, Selzer! I think what I've got going on is an alpha bitch (the old lady) a wanna be (pug) and an alpha male. Wonderful dynamics going on here, LOL! If I add in another female, it won't be until after the old lady is gone. Don't need more competition for fights! The pug is the most dangerous of all, though, because she really does want to fight when she fights. The old lady really doesn't want to, but when the pug starts it.... She's also a thief of toys, and just wants to instigate whenever possible. Luckily, even though she's rather stupid, she will bow down to Grim when he gets really fed up with her. That's her only redeeming quality.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

jag 

what exactly is the old lady? is that your wife?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

pets4life said:


> thanks selzer
> 
> who are the bitches that will take on male dogs in seconds?


Those are the bitches who are in heat, but not in "standing heat." LOL!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

pets4life said:


> jag
> 
> what exactly is the old lady? is that your wife?


That's just so not funny. If I had a death wish and was totally insane, then I *might* refer to my wife as "the old lady".


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> cod, google has amazing powers.
> If you're truly curious about this and not just being obtuse, then look it up.
> It IS well documented.
> 
> ...


Hi MsVette...I know you have a lot of experience. My Stella is now 2. I have been working through her DA issues and some days are good and some are worse. Today she was fine while eating out with a friend and her yorkie. She is also great with chihauhaus and cats. However, another large breed dog her hackles go up and she will try to assert herself over them. Is that fear based or dominance? She will sniff them nose to nose and then try to paw at them if not bark at them.

Also....she is being very protective lately. Her 2nd birthday was yesterday. We took her out to a dog friendly restaurant as we often do. She was great to the staff and other folks walking past the table until my husband got up to use the faciities. She put herself on the outside of the table...high alert and would bark at people walking by.

We left the restaurant a short time later and there were folks on the sidewalk. My husband left to get the car and again she started in this posture of barking and high alert.

I am thinking she has some fear issues but not sure where they came from.

I put her in a platz/sitz/fuss over and over to redirect her brain, but each time if folks came to close she would set off again.

today she was fine in the restaurant because i did not bring my husband so she did not morph into a guarding stance...
what is going on with her...guarding or fear reaction????? Also in the parking lot she caught an air scent of something by a police car and she then went to high alert while we were leaving the restaruant.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She is also great with chihauhaus and cats. However, another large breed dog her hackles go up and she will try to assert herself over them. Is that fear based or dominance? She will sniff them nose to nose and then try to paw at them if not bark at them.


It's very hard to glean out sometimes what our dogs are doing or why. I'm dealing with a very dog-aggressive Dachshund right now who wants to beat up any dogs who are not immediate pack members and even if they are, it's iffy - the mood strikes her and she's after them too. Size and sex don't matter.

One would be tempted to say "dominance" but even fear of losing her "position" could be the cause. 
What's important is to learn triggers to avoid fights, it's tough when they are fighting at your ankles (and still injure each other) but when they are waist high they can do a lot more damage to bystanders.

In rescue we see a ton of this type behavior and what works best is avoidance. If other dogs make her nervous/scared and she reacts aggressively, then try to avoid other dogs when out in public. It is no shame to say "my dog isn't friendly to other dogs" and hope others actually take heed!

Dogs like Stella sometimes have had bad experiences with other dogs along the way and wish to get the first lick in, too. They don't feel as threatened perhaps, by smaller dogs but see bigger dogs as able to harm them, so they wish to make the 1st move to stay "in control" of the situation.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It's very hard to glean out sometimes what our dogs are doing or why. I'm dealing with a very dog-aggressive Dachshund right now who wants to beat up any dogs who are not immediate pack members and even if they are, it's iffy - the mood strikes her and she's after them too. Size and sex don't matter.
> 
> One would be tempted to say "dominance" but even fear of losing her "position" could be the cause.
> What's important is to learn triggers to avoid fights, it's tough when they are fighting at your ankles (and still injure each other) but when they are waist high they can do a lot more damage to bystanders.
> ...


It depends on the day with Stella. She will let large breed males come up to her on occasion but she definitely does not like other large breed females.

She was very well socialized as a puppy and really only had 1 experience where a pittie kept wrestling her down and pinning her by the throat. She was a puppy and so was the pittie. They were both about 4-5 months old. She was still ok with other dogs for awhile but she started change her attitude at about the 8 month mark. She had to be the queen around other dogs and then she just started acting alpha around them. After I saw her change I stopped bringing her to the dog park because I could see she was not going to be a dog friendly dog that would get along with all the others.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She had to be the queen around other dogs and then she just started acting alpha around them. After I saw her change I stopped bringing her to the dog park because I could see she was not going to be a dog friendly dog that would get along with all the others.


Good plan, it sounds like. 
Some bitches carry their "bitchiness" to extremes, it sounds like you have one of them.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

We are making progress, Storm earned her CGC.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

GREAT news!!!  She sounds like a good dog. I hope she continues to make progress with you!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

*big congrats!*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

congratulations on the CGC. So what is next? Are you going to go for herding or tracking or agility or more advanced obedience?


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Obedience and Schutzhund. Probably CD or BH next.


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