# Breeding question



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

To those of you with stud dogs, how many of you guarantee a minimum litter size? I am breeding my male this weekend and had never considered this, those of you that do, what is the minimum litter size you guarantee?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Usually 1-2 puppies, but I was guaranteed 3 with one of the males I used.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How can anyone possibly guarantee that when the problem could the be female?


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

For Shepherds, I usually see 2 live births constituting a litter.

Jax08 - there are no guarantees, but usually the owner of the sire will allow one more breeding free of cost if the litter is small.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> How can anyone possibly guarantee that when the problem could the be female?


Because they charge a stud fee. If, for any reason, you don't get the product, you get a refund, second breeding etc etc something along those lines.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

N Smith said:


> For Shepherds, I usually see 2 live births constituting a litter.
> 
> Jax08 - there are no guarantees, but usually the owner of the sire will allow one more breeding free of cost if the litter is small.


Thanks for that. So what happens if a proven stud is used and no litter is produced? How would you determine a "guarantee" in that situation?


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Usually you just get one free "repeat". 

I have seen contracts where half the stud fee is paid upon service and half paid upon the live birth of the "litter". So if no litter is produced, then just the portion for services is paid.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

N Smith said:


> Usually you just get one free "repeat".
> 
> I have seen contracts where half the stud fee is paid upon service and half paid upon the live birth of the "litter". So if no litter is produced, then just the portion for services is paid.


Regardless of which dog may be at at fault, the stud fee is reduced or refunded? Interesting.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Really, the most risk with using an outside stud is to the bitch owner (as far as whether a litter is produced or not and the costs associated with that). 

I have a friend who breeds Frenchies. she asked to use frozen semen from a dog now deceased. The breeder would only allow her to once her bitch was proven. She had already planned to breed to her Russian import for the first litter, which produced 5 gorgeous puppies. So now she can purchase the semen to use for her second litter.

I have another friend who breeder BMD's. She spent $2000 on the stud fee, plus collection and shipping and TCI done here, for semen shipped from a dog in the states (we are incredibly isolated here) and NO puppies resulted. She did this twice, $4000 down the drain. She recently leased a male from the states and he has produced one litter for her here so far.

If no litter is produced within the terms of the contract, then yes the females owner is SOL. (Unless the stud dog owner would allow more attempts)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, no refunds. You just get another chance to do a breeding. At least I have never seen a refund offered. Some will also allow a substitution of females too if the issues prove to be with the bitch (say she is old or dies, etc).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what about waiting for the payment after the pups hit the ground, instead of refunding? That is, if you have a decent relationship with the breeder. Is that not common practice?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> what about waiting for the payment after the pups hit the ground, instead of refunding? That is, if you have a decent relationship with the breeder. Is that not common practice?


This was the type of transaction that I had with the owners of the stud that I used.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> what about waiting for the payment after the pups hit the ground, instead of refunding? That is, if you have a decent relationship with the breeder. Is that not common practice?


I wouldn't call it "common", but have definitely seen it amongst trusted breeders


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This is an economical issue - not a fault finding one......dog people seem to be way behind horse (TB) people in the ethics of stud service!

I don't pay a stud fee to let someone's dog have fun....I pay a stud fee to produce puppies....the few people who have used a contract defined a litter as 4 or 3 puppies...less than that - no stud fee is owed or there is a "return"....

One litter I had 3 pups, the owner offered a half price return...and I paid the full fee when the pups were born, not at time of service....

I have run the gamut on stud fees - paying up front (which I am loathe to do now), paying half up front, paying when the litter is born....which is the way I prefer. I have had owners of males who I did not even KNOW prior to the breeding tell me to send the money when I got pups (dog and owner in Canada)...I have had people offer me free services - no strings, just because they liked a female I have....they want to use a male from that litter eventually and of course, that will be reciprocal. 

In TBs, except for THE major, syndicated sires, offering free services is common when someone wants to promote a young stallion....many many horses are standing with "Fee due when foal stands and nurses" - ie when you get a viable offspring....or for some well regarded studs, partway through the pregnancy - mid September normally. 

I have had some people offer "free" breedings, then say, I want a puppy....well that is NOT a free breeding, it is a very high priced one!!!! They are not sharing in the vet expenses, the travel costs, the risk or the work. 

If my male does well with his co-owner, he will have a reasonable fee, perhaps with a small booking fee due at breeding, and the remainder due when pups are born...if he is breedworthy, I don't him to to be out of reach of a good female if someone is interested.....most males do not get breedings, so I believe the owners need to promote their males by doing their best to make them attractive to the owners of females.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

When we've used outside studs, there has always been either a written or verbal agreement for a minimum of 2 or 3 pups. If the female doesn't get pregnant, or the litter is less than that, a return breeding is allowed. I've never had a refund offered, but have never had a problem doing a repeat (including with a different female).

When breeders have used our males, we've just waited to collect the stud fee until after the litter was born. No litter, no stud fee. But then they have only been used by trusted breeders that we already knew and had a relationship with. To someone unknown, we'd probably collect a stud fee upfront and then offer a similar 2 or 3 pup guarantee.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lee, the horse world does seem to be a very different world when it comes to breeding. Stud owners are much more willing to do what it takes to get foals on the ground especially with young unproven males.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We require a progesterone on the female (same requirement we do ourselves).

Yes, but if the female does not take, repeat given on next heat cycle. Make sure you have in writing the timeframe. I know of a breeder on the East Coast that someone came back after 5 years....

Note whether it needs to be the same female or not.

And we require payment upfront, when breeding is completed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> I don't him to to be out of reach of a good female if someone is interested.....most males do not get breedings, so I believe the owners need to promote their males by doing their best to make them attractive to the owners of females.
> 
> Lee


Marketing stud dogs is probably difficult if you aren't sharing video's constantly or out there doing national events. I'm talking more about working lines as that is what I am more familiar with...not sure how the showline network goes.

Doesn't word of mouth work pretty well? Even though it does take a ton of research on the breeders part to find studs that aren't the well-known names, and knowing about the pedigree that will complement their bitch. 
I have a well bred, health tested, titled breed-worthy male, though, we don't trial in national events as my handling skills are totally lacking. His genetics are a great combination and no line breeding. Yet, no way will I market him to stud him out.

I say this as I'm on some of the fb pages and read those ads...too many to sort through~ the good or bad/and discerning what I'd want in a pup, think of it as a buyer looking at that pedigree combination.
I'd rather just work with contacts and people I know, instead of placing an ad for exposure. 
I know this off the topic, but seldom are there stud owner conversations on this board.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for the advice everyone, like Lee my background is horses and I feel strange taking a stud fee up front before the puppies are born, so I am waiting to see what is produced, I am feeling like less than 3 is not a very productive litter so will offer a rebreeding if that happens, its a very nice Kennel and I'm honored she wants to breed to my male.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Your male has had several litters already, hasn't he? Wouldn't being a proven producer help/whoever is breeding to him, hopefully has seen what he's produced and is confident he'll continue. 
I agree with Jax08 in regards to small or no litter, if the bitch isn't producing what the male consistently has proven to do, it is all on the bitch, only so many eggs to be fertilized. Male fertility can be analyzed quite easily on a collection prior to the breeding if the stud owner wants to take those steps.


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