# Sigh.. possession aggression...



## svtcobragirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Hello all.. I am just a little miffed tonight. My baby boy of 2 years got extremely possessive over a beef rib bone with me. He has never, ever, ever been food aggressive/possession aggressive with us. I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me.. he has never ever done this before.. he is well trained, socialized, and an all around good guy.. he is unaltered and just turned 2 a week ago.. could his hormones be a possibility?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I recall my first dog ( neutered male ) pulled something similar when he was about 2 years old....got a bit bold ( growl and some teeth showing ) with me when I moved him from our bed...guess he thought it was his. I reintroduced the dog to who was sheriff again immediately and with "clarity"....never had another episode like that again.


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So the question is how did you react?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

When dexter was younger we were on our way up to the boat and stopped for tims, well brendan went to take a bite of his sausage bagel and dexter leaped at his breakfast and ripped the sausage right out from his bagel. Andrew stopped the car , dex got a very firm no followed by turning the car around and he went right back to his crate for the day. 
Im curious too how did you react? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Handling that kind of thing is delicate sometimes. Resource guarding often signals a disconnect in the relationship somewhere. A lack of trust usually. Sometimes it's an operant thing. I've seen a lot of clients trigger the behavior by approaching and trying to take an item from a dog in a hesitant or weird way that emboldens the dog to attempt a response.

It sounds like you weren't even going for the item. The dog probably didn't realize that, but even if you were it isn't a good response to get. 

I don't know if it's a relationship thing or a weird hesitant approach that caused it or what went on, but if I didn't see it in one of my dogs and it suddenly happened at the 2 year mark for the first time ever my response would be very very sudden very very dramatic and after I got done smacking him around I'd give him the item back and let him be on his way. That way it's very clear it wasn't about the item it was about the agression.

I don't necessarily recommend that approach to people who don't know if they can win a fight should one start though.

For people who can't do that and even those who can I would just never put the dog in that situation again so as not to strengthen the behavior.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

trade up
The “trade game” for dogs | Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

With well trained, what do you mean? Is he generally respectful of you? Crate trained, does he have impulse control? He is not a 2 year old baby, he is a young adult male dog. I hope you don't treat him like a baby. He might have strat climbng the social ladder and see how far he could go.
On another note the beef rib from your party, was it cooked? Because that can be dangerous as it might splinter and harm him. Bones should never given cooked.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's how I start with puppies with food and toys to build that trust and relationship. The problem is if the relationship is there and has been there and suddenly you see it anyway. The punishment on the first incident in that case is to prevent a repeat of the behavior. It isn't about the item. If you gave it to the dog you gave it to the dog. It's about punishing the act of agression.

It isn't about dominance or showing the dog who is boss. It's about punishing a behavior to weaken it. Once it becomes an operant thing it doesn't matter how the dog views you, it becomes conditioned as a behavior despite all that. Dogs are like autistic kids in that way. There's no thought put into the action necessarily it's just a reaction to a conditioned stimulus.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> trade up
> The “trade game” for dogs | Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004



What happens when there are no other higher value items to "trade up" with ??

SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you're dead set against confrontation make the dog drag a leash and remove the dog from the item and not the item from the dog. It's a manageable thing. Or if you're wanting to load the dice in your favor punish with e collar.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*What happens when there are no other higher value items to "trade up" with*

you do not give that high of value until they learn they are not losing something
do read the article because it explains how to do it and the proper steps
you want to be the giver of good things not the taker


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> What happens when there are no other higher value items to "trade up" with ??
> 
> SuperG


This is foundation training, so that's not really a factor.  I'm not going to give my dogs something super high value and then take it away. If I give it to them, it's theirs. But because I do trading games from the very beginning, as part of my foundation puppy training, I've built up trust so they don't ever feel the need to guard valuable resources from me. With tug toys and nylabones I'd keep hold of the item, so I maintained possession. When they let go, I marked and rewarded it, and then gave it back again, still holding onto it. 

If they get something they're not supposed to have, I simply take it away. I can do that without any fuss because they're comfortable with me being there when they're eating meals (I don't mess with them while they're eating, like taking the bowl away, or sticking my hands in it, but I can stand there, and I may give them a pat on the side as I walk by or something), or chewing a bully stick, or whatever. 

But that's generally later, once they're adults. As puppies, rather than chasing after them when they grab something, I encourage them to bring it to me in a happy voice, and then I reward them for doing so. That worked a little TOO well with Halo, who would look for things to bring me, like potholders, eyeglass, and the TV remotes, lol. But by making it a game when she was young, when I did have to grab her and pry her mouth open to pull out the baggie of cheese she'd swiped off the kitchen counter while my back was turned it wasn't a big deal. And she still likes to bring me bones to hold for her while she chews them, or she'll bring me her precious Orbee ball to take away and give back before she lays down to chew on it obsessively. :laugh:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

OP was not taking the item. Nor did the OP intend to take the item.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

svtcobragirl said:


> Hello all.. I am just a little miffed tonight. My baby boy of 2 years got extremely possessive over a beef rib bone with me. He has never, ever, ever been food aggressive/possession aggressive with us. I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me.. he has never ever done this before.. he is well trained, socialized, and an all around good guy.. he is unaltered and just turned 2 a week ago.. could his hormones be a possibility?


It is a very simple matter. What the dog saw was that you came over to mess with him while he was enjoying a prized object, in his eyes you were going to try to steal it from him as a lower pack member would do and he bowed up and growled as he would have done if another (lower ranking) dog approached him while he was enjoying his meal.

Best solution, teach him the out command. When he has a prized object and you want to do something (take it away, pet him or whatever) give the out command, he will let go willingly and look up to you for the next action. Here you have raised your position to alpha in his mind. He will no longer defend a prized object in this case.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*OP was not taking the item. Nor did the OP intend to take the item.*

and the dog knew she was not going to take it how...?
* I gave him a rib bone from my birthday party earlier, when I went down to pet him/love on him he tensed up and growled at me..*

to a dog that petting and 'loving' on him is a precursor to taking the bone in his mind

i always say how did the dog perceive it because it does not matter what your intentions were 
what matters is how the dog viewed or perceived your actions


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hence why i brought up the trust relationship thing. Either way once that door to behavior is open its open till it is slammed shut again through action.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I think the two of you missed my point.....Cassidy and Myboy

Anyway, never had to trade up or deal with the problem of resource guarding except maybe once or twice when they were young pups....I didn't have to play any trade games or other baloney....they all simply learned at a very young age...good things come from my hands and they are mine...and I am sharing with them...if they chose to be greedy once or twice I responded in kind except with a bit more "authority"...and perhaps that only happened with one of my shepherds. I start from square one...in the very beginning...the food my pups would eat was my food...when I was done with my face in their food bowl, I'd let them have at it...it was just that simple. I can take anything from my current shepherd and I don't even need to "take" it...I simply tell her to drop it...doesn't matter if it's a frisbee or a bloody red piece of beef or chicken quarter...the seed was planted many moons ago...this is all mine and I love to share...oh, and I have never been the taker...because I only have given...it seems so infinitely easy.

SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Hence why i brought up the trust relationship thing. Either way once that door to behavior is open its open till it is slammed shut again through action.


How do you build trust with an e-collar, as you advised in an earlier thread? Trust is different than fear out of pain.
For me is the trade game that works. At this level, no high value chewies so you can up with the better stuff and build from there. That takes longer than shocking him into submission but you maintain a happier dog. At the same time work on the NILIF.
But I know we all work with techniques we are comfortable with and there is no one way that works for everyone.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*they all simply learned at a very young age*

so you taught them from the beginning and there has never been an issue

and you did not read the article which shows how to lay a foundation before pushing the dog with taking a steak bone
you dont toss the dog a hunk of meatloaf then expect a milkbone biscuit or a piece of kibble will get its attention
instead you give the milk bone and trade up to a bit of cooked chicken 

*or other baloney.*
i got your point just fine
you poo poo doing a trade game because it does not make sense to you
you are the boss of your dog and eat out of its bowl before it can
which makes no sense to _me _
dogs know i am not a dog so why would i be on my knees on the floor eating out of its bowl???

either way point is do not create the problem yourself or if you did create it then work to rebuild the dogs trust instead of insisting on yanking its food away from it


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I think the two of you missed my point.....Cassidy and Myboy
> 
> Anyway, never had to trade up or deal with the problem of resource guarding except maybe once or twice when they were young pups....I didn't have to play any trade games or other baloney....they all simply learned at a very young age...good things come from my hands and they are mine...and I am sharing with them...if they chose to be greedy once or twice I responded in kind except with a bit more "authority"...and perhaps that only happened with one of my shepherds. I start from square one...in the very beginning...the food my pups would eat was my food...when I was done with my face in their food bowl, I'd let them have at it...it was just that simple. I can take anything from my current shepherd and I don't even need to "take" it...I simply tell her to drop it...doesn't matter if it's a frisbee or a bloody red piece of beef or chicken quarter...the seed was planted many moons ago...this is all mine and I love to share...oh, and I have never been the taker...because I only have given...it seems so infinitely easy.
> 
> SuperG


Pretty much this


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> How do you build trust with an e-collar, as you advised in an earlier thread? Trust is different than fear out of pain.
> For me is the trade game that works. At this level, no high value chewies so you can up with the better stuff and build from there. That takes longer than shocking him into submission but you maintain a happier dog. At the same time work on the NILIF.
> But I know we all work with techniques we are comfortable with and there is no one way that works for everyone.


Youre twisting instead of reading and understanding


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> *What happens when there are no other higher value items to "trade up" with*
> 
> you do not give that high of value until they learn they are not losing something
> do read the article because it explains how to do it and the proper steps
> you want to be the giver of good things not the taker


From the article..." Being consistently dominant/pack-leaderish around a resource-guarding dog DOES help the behavior, because it makes the dog feel more secure and safe. Secure and safe dogs are willing to give up food or beds, because they are happy and calm."...*I wholeheartedly agree.*

From the article...."When the dog is happily interacting with the object or chew (keep it in your hand while she is doing this) you cheerfully say “Trade!” and bring your other hand over and shove a Tiny But Incredibly Awesome Treat in her nose."..*.the assumption here is the tiny portion of an awesome treat is the end all....the highest value treat...well, unfortunately for some...the "awesome treat"...the item with the highest value might be a beef rib with bloody red meat on it...I rather doubt a TBIAT will compete with that....hence my comment...what happens when there is no "higher value" treat. In my opinion the "trade game" seems to be void of a real understanding and is predicated on a bribe of sorts...when the day comes when you have nothing to "bribe" the dog with or the dog has THE highest value reward...you are screwed....but, yes..the lesson supposedly here is ...after you have played the trade game for awhile and the dog has learned, there need be no more trading because the dog will freely surrender whatever it is one wants....I don't buy into that personally.*

And in conclusion....from your article..."I see this in my own pack–Clue, who is the dominant bitch, very rarely does any kind of food guarding or resource guarding. *She simply owns the food,* and rarely gets into any squabbles."

*Exactly my point from the beginning.....right of ownership....who truly has it.....I know who does in my life with my dog.
*

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> instead of insisting on yanking its food away from it


Where did you come up with that comment? I never did as such.....I always "ate" first during that short time period when they were pups....only took but a week or two to ingrain the idea....why would I yank there food away? That's more the philosophy of the "trade game"...you know ..I take this from you and give you this..but yet you are still taking.....no me...I'm a giver.

And you are correct...with my current shepherd there has never been an issue since the time we learned who owns the tennis ball...and I did it in "dog speak"...it worked amazing well...Oh, I guess there was a bit of a trade...I owned the tennis ball and she traded some of her lack of "respect" for me at the same time for some "respect".

SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i did not say you yanked food away
that was a general statement 
people _in general_ create problems in their dogs even where none existed by making them feel insecure about their (the dogs) food

*I don't buy into that personally.*
that is fine but your opinion is severely biased since you have never done the trade game


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i did not say you yanked food away
> that was a general statement
> people _in general_ create problems in their dogs even where none existed by making them feel insecure about their (the dogs) food
> 
> ...



You are absolutely correct...I have never needed to...I dealt with the potential situation long before it ever could have become a problem. I'm a big "right of ownership" fan and believe many problems can stem from a lack of understanding this mentality which all dogs possess to one degree or another....even though I have never done the trade game...it seems to be a band-aid....if I was in the OP's position, I might try the trade game perhaps but more than likely I would pursue the remedy in a different fashion...A.D.D....Additional Discipline Demanded...and it would have started the instant the dog acted up in that fashion. I am sorry if it is difficult for you and some others to not realize there comes a time and place for discipline..and I'm here to tell you..a dog of mine, growling and showing teeth ( soon to become laying teeth on me or someone else )is simply not tolerable or acceptable. It seems the trend in dog training for the average dog owner has become so ridiculously "feel good" and all targeted toward nothing a treat can't cure..and with that in mind, it comes as no surprise that the personal dog training business is probably booming...I wonder why? Dogs have not changed over the decades...their innate characteristics remain, this much I am certain of...I also am a believer in a combination of training methods..utilizing positive reinforcement as well as discipline when required. We simply do not agree and that is fine with me...and that's what makes life wonderful...we can all choose which route we take and we all enjoy the benefits as well as suffer the consequences from our decisions and choices.

SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have always stayed at a distance that does not elicit a growl and tossed high value treats, then left the room.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LOL.....that was a joke ....correct ?


SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Nope. That is how Patricia McConnell says to fix RG. In a nutshell.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

One of these days people will realize positive reinforcement done wrong can be just as damaging and potentially deadly to a dog as positive punishment done wrong.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Nope. That is how Patricia McConnell says to fix RG. In a nutshell.


So your dog determines your boundaries....interesting.

SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

But hey the behavior stops when she leaves threshold and starts throwing steak at the dog so it must be working.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

... Trying to stay under threshold while treating is the idea.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> Anyway, never had to trade up or deal with the problem of resource guarding....


Me either. I do foundation work with my puppies from day one to _prevent_ problems, I don't wait and see if problems crop up and _then_ deal with them. 

There's no way to predict whether or not I *need* to do 99% of what I routinely do when raising a new puppy, but I do it anyway, so I guess I can't really say for sure if any of it is why I've never had a problem with resource guarding or not. You can't both proactively train against future problems and wait and see if not proactively training that same dog would make a difference, you either do it or you don't. 

Maybe I'm just lucky and none of my dogs would have developed guarding issues no matter what I did or didn't do those critical first months at home. But since I don't know and can't know, I'll continue doing whatever I can to make sure they don't.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Nope. That is how Patricia McConnell says to fix RG. In a nutshell.


Yes! This works extremely well. Did this with a Corgi who had bitten the entire family ( parents and 3 teens) in the presence of his food. They had to feed him in the back of the bath room and could not enter the room anymore or he would lash out and bite. So, we started throwing chicken from the door way every time he lashed out until I could stand at about three feet from him.
In the meantime I explained the NILIF treatment, trade and leave it and honestly in three weeks everyone in the family could do anything with him and it was over and everybody is happy with him. Evidently that dog craved leadership.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't know how to quote in the app

Baillif
'One of these days people will realize positive reinforcement done wrong can be just as damaging and potentially deadly to a dog as positive punishment done wrong.'

Can yu give an example? Lol sounds intriguing 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Most dogs aggression issues that I've worked with are operant issues meaning they received positive reinforcement for the aggression.

Example of something I saw at a party I was at tonight. A small Maltese was barking and lunging at a little girl riding a trike and the owner picked the dog up and pet the dog trying to get it to settle down.

It happens all the time.

Dogs chewing up socks eating them and dying or needing surgery. The dog performed an activity was self reinforced for it and it became deadly.

Dogs lunge and bark at strangers and what happens? Either the stranger adds distance or the handler adds distance and the dog is positively reinforced for reactivity because the threat is moved away.

Behaviors that lead to dogs being given up and ultimately put down like obsessive barking, many types of reactivity, most forms of aggression towards the handler, or really most forms of aggression period, separation anxiety, destruction of the house or property, counter surfing, trash can diving, they all are things that are learned through positive reinforcement, sometimes on the part of the owner and sometimes it's something the dog picks up on its own because of pure lack of management or discipline of the dog.

People positively reinforce their dogs for activities they hate all the time. Jumping on people, mouthing their hands, puppy biting, over excitement, etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm with SuperG on this one. Six dogs in my house and it's not something that I have ever had to deal with, with any of them. Never had to trade up either. The first thing I do when I get a new dog is see how they react to me taking a toy or picking up their dish, it gives me an idea where they are at. Not one of my dogs have ever growled at me ever. I will say that my dogs trust me 100% and they respect me as I respect each one of them. Every now and then they do it amongst themselves and I put an end to that immediately, it happens rarely, but there are toys that a couple of them like and they both want, etc. teaching a dog leave it and drop it helps tremendously. As for the rib bone, cooked bones are not good.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also don't find the trade up game to really make sense. You can take away a toy to give a biscuit, but it doesn't help if the toy is of higher value to that particular dog. What we might think is high value to them might not mean squat to them. For example The highest value thing for my female GSD is her rock, she has had this rock since she was a pup. She found it in the bushes. It's a bigger rock, when I moved I took her rock with us. She just loves that rock and nothing else matters. I would not have put a rock in my rotation of trade-ups


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I find the trade up game great. You guys would punish a dog for resource guarding food? That sounds like a great way to build trust with a dog that already has trust issues. 

Btw I find resource guarding a ball vs guarding food very different.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> I find the trade up game great. You guys would punish a dog for resource guarding food? That sounds like a great way to build trust with a dog that already has trust issues.
> 
> Btw I find resource guarding a ball vs guarding food very different.


I've never had to deal with it. The trade up game just doesn't make sense to me. How do you determine what is more high value to your dog? Maybe one day it's this toy, the next day it's this toy, maybe one day it's some kind of food? Dogs aren't that predictable.

Here is a scenario....
What if the dog got a rib bone and you needed to get it away so the dog doesn't eat it and hurt itself, you have nothing else to give, how do you get that bond away from the dog that is snarling and growling at you?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whatever happened to leave the dog alone when he's eating? Maybe I'm just getting old or something.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I've never had to deal with it. The trade up game just doesn't make sense to me. How do you determine what is more high value to your dog? Maybe one day it's this toy, the next day it's this toy, maybe one day it's some kind of food? Dogs aren't that predictable.
> 
> Here is a scenario....
> What if the dog got a rib bone and you needed to get it away so the dog doesn't eat it and hurt itself, you have nothing else to give, his do you get that bone away from the dog that is snarling and growling at you? Do you run and get a biscuit? Is there enough time to even do that? My guess is the rib bone would be gone before you got back..game over.


Is your first question serious? You don't know how to determine what your dog likes more? His favorite toy/food changes from day to day? Ha yeah right.... 

If your dog has resource guarding issues and you actually give him a rib bone then you aren't very smart and shouldn't own a dog. A dog doesn't go to snapping and growling the first time something is taken away. It's an escalation. 

You say you've never had to deal with this so why are you even here giving advice?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> Is your first question serious? You don't know how to determine what your dog likes more? His favorite toy/food changes from day to day? Ha yeah right....
> 
> If your dog has resource guarding issues and you actually give him a rib bone then you aren't very smart and shouldn't own a dog. A dog doesn't go to snapping and growling the first time something is taken away. It's an escalation.
> 
> You say you've never had to deal with this so why are you even here giving advice?


The point is that I don't have to deal with because it was dealt with the moment they came in the door, if needed. I didn't say you gave the dog a rib bone in my scenario. I said what if the dog got a rib bone? There are a million things that a dog can get that an owner has to get away from them. And yes I'm serious when I ask about the food/toy changing. My dogs definetely switch gears when it comes to favorite things. I want to know what people do if the dog gets something it shouldn't and is guarding it and there is nothing around to trade with. It's a simple question and I am cutious as to how those situations work. So again I ask what does one use to trade up with if the dog gets something it shouldn't and nothing is available to trade with?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Whatever happened to leave the dog alone when he's eating? Maybe I'm just getting old or something.


This is exactly how it should be, but there can always be an emergency situation and something that is dangerous for the dog needs to be taken away. My sister had a St Bernard she was fostering, great dog normally. I was watching him and he got out of the yard and ran to the middle of the road where there was a dead rabbit. He turned into Cujo. That was one of the only times I was afraid of a dog. You wouldn't believe the growling, teeth, drooling and lunging I saw that day. All I had was a broom and I had to guide him off the road with that dead rabbit. I couldn't get it away from him. My sister found a home a very short time later. He got sick and died, it was from something that that dead rabbit was carrying(disease). Never again will I go through that


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

And again I say, if your dog has known guarding issues and you don't strictly enforce and let the dog get ahold of stuff then you shouldn't own a dog. It's called training. You don't trade just to trade. 

I mean if the dog has growl snapped at you before, who would leave a rib bone out? Who would leave anything out that a dog can potentially hurt itself with? 

Pretty simple if you ask me. You say you've never dealt with this so how would you hypothetically deal with this since trading seems like a novel idea to you?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> And again I say, if your dog has known guarding issues and you don't strictly enforce and let the dog get ahold of stuff then you shouldn't own a dog. It's called training. You don't trade just to trade.
> 
> I mean if the dog has growl snapped at you before, who would leave a rib bone out? Who would leave anything out that a dog can potentially hurt itself with?
> 
> Pretty simple if you ask me. You say you've never dealt with this so how would you hypothetically deal with this since trading seems like a novel idea to you?


Read my story about the St Bernard. It took one time and the dog dying for me to learn. As a pet owner you should know that accidents happen, dogs can get into stuff. Someone could throw a bone into your yard. You act like dogs are perfect and won't take an opportunity. I don't care how trained they are, they are opportunist and if someone doesn't get that, they shouldn't own a dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

llombardo said:


> This is exactly how it should be, but there can always be an emergency situation and something that is dangerous for the dog needs to be taken away. My sister had a St Bernard she was fostering, great dog normally. I was watching him and he got out of the yard and ran to the middle of the road where there was a dead rabbit. He turned into Cujo. That was one of the only times I was afraid of a dog. You wouldn't believe the growling, teeth, drooling and lunging I saw that day. All I had was a broom and I had to guide him off the road with that dead rabbit. I couldn't get it away from him. My sister found a home a very short time later. He got sick and died, it was from something that that dead rabbit was carrying(disease). Never again will I go through that


 I'd look at that as a little bit different then the feeding at home being discussed. I understand what you mean, but I think that's something addressed by Faisal on page 2. Leave it or out trained and solid, but you're right they are opportunists. Something terrible like that can happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> Pretty simple if you ask me. You say you've never dealt with this so how would you hypothetically deal with this since trading seems like a novel idea to you?


I teach my dogs drop it and leave it very early on, so I'm sure that would help. If one of my own dogs ever growled at me I would and this would bd the only time that I would take whatever it is, tell them no, and give them a smack on the nose. Not a hard smack if course, but one that would let them know what I expected. It would be a shock to them since that never happens. I look at it this way..it's not allowed and I'm not giving them something to get something back, if I want it then I'm able to take it back when it's time to do so.. It's comparable in my eyes to giving a child money for a good report card. That isn't happening, they are expected to get good grades and I'm not paying or bribing them to do so. I basically look at the trading game as more of a bribery.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd look at that as a little bit different then the feeding at home being discussed. I understand what you mean, but I think that's something addressed by Faisal on page 2. Leave it or out trained and solid, but you're right they are opportunists. Something terrible like that can happen.


But it kinda all goes together. There should be no resource guarding in any situation. It starts at home, but it should carry over for all situations..visiting other people, hikes, or just going for a walk, etc. if a person has a dog that us a known resource guarder, then they have to be prepared all the time. Even dogs that aren't prone to it can decide that their find is the greatest thing in the world. Like I said my dogs don't do it, but they could and I need to be ready to handle if on the spot.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

There is a big difference in training dog from a young age to defer to you and not have any issues if you take something from then, and a 2 year old dog suddenly showing guarding signs. 

A 2 yo dog, has probably been showing some kind of sign, probably unrecognized, but still there. Problem being, that dog is now big enough to take you down. So extreme caution must be taken. Way more so than in a puppy. 

If an adult dog of mine displayed this, in the moment I would do a trade up, or a call away, anything to get the dog to willingly leave the object. Then work on where the breakdown in our relationship is and fix that. Through NILF, training, deference work. 

It's not an issue that has ever happened to me with a dog I have raised. But I did have foster that was violent about food. It took an enormous amount of work to get that dog to trust me and not show the behavior. It reared its head again in his forever home, and she did exactly as I recommended. She walked away, went into her kitchen and dumped food in a bowl. Dog came running! She put him outside, and picked up the bone. Then we worked on building the relationship. The behavior went away. 


Training a pup and dealing with a full grown dog are different. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*You say you've never had to deal with this so why are you even here giving advice?*
for sure
i am always amused when people belittle a method *proven* to work just because
1 they have not dealt with the problem so 
2 they have never used the method themselves so
3 they think that method is silly

and you arrived at that conclusion _how_?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> *You say you've never had to deal with this so why are you even here giving advice?*
> for sure
> i am always amused when people belittle a method *proven* to work just because
> 1 they have not dealt with the problem so
> ...


I never said its silly, I said it reminds me of bribery and I'm not bribing my dog to do anything. I train my dogs not bribe them. And obviously training works and is a proven method.

AGAIN I'm asking someone to explain how the trade up works in certain situations. Not one person can answer my question? I don't find it to be a difficult question. I want to know how the trade up works in emergency situations. I did not give any advice, because again that kind if behavior is not allowed and worked in in the door with each dog. Now can someone just answer my question...what do you use to trade up with in an emergency situation if nothing is available?


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Trade up is not used in emergency situation, it is used to train a dog showing possession aggression. Emergency situations call for a more direct approach.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I'm with SuperG on this one. Six dogs in my house and it's not something that I have ever had to deal with, with any of them. Never had to trade up either. The first thing I do when I get a new dog is see how they react to me taking a toy or picking up their dish, it gives me an idea where they are at. Not one of my dogs have ever growled at me ever. I will say that my dogs trust me 100% and they respect me as I respect each one of them. Every now and then they do it amongst themselves and I put an end to that immediately, it happens rarely, but there are toys that a couple of them like and they both want, etc. teaching a dog leave it and drop it helps tremendously. As for the rib bone, cooked bones are not good.


None of my dogs ever, ever growled at me or showed possessive behavior, even the foster dogs over the years. You just don't push them that far and teach them at the same time. That's 40 years of having had dogs.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

In an emergency you don't trade up. You just take it. Trading a dog is about building trust. It's not about getting a certain item away from a dog.

The fact that you've never dealt with resource guarding and can't even take something away from a dog (which ended up dead) just shows how seriously anyone should take your advice.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Most dogs just don't have it in them to resource guard......I have never had a dog who does it. I could say it is because my methods are faultless but in reality it is just cause I have never owned one who had it in them to guard.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DobbyDad said:


> Trade up is not used in emergency situation, it is used to train a dog showing possession aggression. Emergency situations call for a more direct approach.


This is what I would think would have to happen. It could be a really dangerous situation if the dog in the emergency situation won't let you near it. That is kinda why I think it should be considered more of a training thing versus a game of you give me that and I'll give you this. I really don't think they should expect to get something in return for giving something up. I think that it should always be a direct approach so the dog learns to understand and learns what is acceptable and not acceptable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> In an emergency you don't trade up. You just take it. Trading a dog is about building trust. It's not about getting a certain item away from a dog.
> 
> The fact that you've never dealt with resource guarding and can't even take something away from a dog (which ended up dead) just shows how seriously anyone should take your advice.


The dog wasn't mine and it was many many many years ago. I was standing in the middle of basically a highway with semis flying through, I didn't have many options or much time to do much. My goal was to get that dog off the road and not ran over along with myself. I guess I could have just let the dog get run over, yeah that would have been better. My story wasn't meant for you to bash me, it was an example of an emergency situation. I'm not offering any advice in this situation at all, I am just questioning the method. I've had puppies and adults come into my house and I have taken stuff away from all of them without issue and we have no trust issues.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> None of my dogs ever, ever growled at me or showed possessive behavior, even the foster dogs over the years. You just don't push them that far and teach them at the same time. That's 40 years of having had dogs.


Exactly the same here, right down to the 40 years of having dogs and lots of them


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Bailiff, I see what you meant. Yes, people def reinforce bad behavior. I thought you meant that you can do damage with marker training (positive training). Not sure what made me think that, I now see you said something different


On the subject of guarding, I think some dogs wouldn't guard whether you trained them or not. As sparra said, they don't have it in them. From my experience with my dog I agree. He doesn't guard (though has many other problems) and it's not because I did anything. 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

simba405 said:


> I find the trade up game great. You guys would punish a dog for resource guarding food? That sounds like a great way to build trust with a dog that already has trust issues.
> 
> Btw I find resource guarding a ball vs guarding food very different.


You can build trust all you want but if the behavior is already operant you must punish it. I'll give you an example.

I had a client with a 7 month old high drive cocker spaniel with terrible resource guarding issues for both food and toys. So we immediately began to work on it from the trust side of things. We took away bowls and hand fed and then taught fetch and an out and interactive games. 

The dog never showed resource guarding behavior toward other dogs or toward any of us at the kennel except for a brief flash or two of the behavior the first day it was with us. We didn't try to set it off though. We eventually started the hand in the bowl thing while the dog was eating and coming over to take a toy from the dog and we did it with some people that the dog had never seen or built a relationship with. We showed lots of pictures with lots of people in lots of places to get the dog to generalize it.

Cured right?

We took the dog back and he went crazy again. So we were like ok go ahead take a few weeks to play these games and build a relationship with the dog and before that just manage it to keep him from doing that behavior and tell us how it goes. 

So they do so and things went better but the puppy was still showing the agreession despite the work put in so we went to phase 2. Punishment for the agressive behavior. It was done a very specific way like I said before though. You let them keep the item immediately after you punish the agression so it is clear it's not about the item it's about the dog acting like an idiot. That was what finally ended that whole thing because the behavior was operant with a discriminative stimulus (the family members) that we couldn't replicate in the board in train environment. That ended it after a few days and the dog wasn't put down and everyone was happy including the dog. (Certified vet behaviorist wanted to put the dog down)

Once a behavior is practiced to the point it becomes operant you need to punish to eventually eradicate it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Baillif said:


> You can build trust all you want but if the behavior is already operant you must punish it. I'll give you an example.
> 
> I had a client with a 7 month old high drive cocker spaniel with terrible resource guarding issues for both food and toys. So we immediately began to work on it from the trust side of things. We took away bowls and hand fed and then taught fetch and an out and interactive games.
> 
> ...


So now what does the OP do, since the moment to correct has passed and the dog has never done it before? Do they wait and be ready for the next time or should they do some training now?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If I was the op I'd just go on with life as before. I'd go ahead and do trust building activities with food for now with progressively higher value and just avoid letting the dog practice the behavior especially if you don't want to punish your dog. If you do see it you need to punish it then give the item back. The reason you punish if it's the first time you see it is ideally you create a single event learning experience. 

It probably won't be necessary though. You just saw it once, but work on it anyway from the trust building side of things for now.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> I also don't find the trade up game to really make sense. You can take away a toy to give a biscuit, but it doesn't help if the toy is of higher value to that particular dog.


It does if you reward with a treat for giving up the toy, and then you give the toy back. Isn't that how you'd teach an "out" anyway? Mark and reward for the out, and then let the game continue? That's all trading games are.  I do it with a variety of things - balls, bones, tug toys, etc. Puppy learns that giving up something makes other good things happen, puppy feels comfortable with me nearby while chewing a bone or bully stick, puppy learns to trust me and doesn't feel the need to guard valuable resources from me. In fact, puppy (like Halo!) may decide that it's fun to bring you things to trade for other things, and make a game out of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It does if you reward with a treat for giving up the toy, and then you give the toy back. Isn't that how you'd teach an "out" anyway? Mark and reward for the out, and then let the game continue? That's all trading games are.  I do it with a variety of things - balls, bones, tug toys, etc. Puppy learns that giving up something makes other good things happen, puppy feels comfortable with me nearby while chewing a bone or bully stick, puppy learns to trust me and doesn't feel the need to guard valuable resources from me. In fact, puppy (like Halo!) may decide that it's fun to bring you things to trade for other things, and make a game out of it.


I never use a different object. I teach them drop it and give the same thing back to them. I don't give them a treat for dropping it, their reward is getting the toy back after they give it to me. That is one command I just don't reward for. If I want them to drop it I expect them to drop it immediately. I also expect them to learn leave it and once they drop it I might enforce that with a leave if to guarantee they won't pick it back up.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> .the assumption here is the tiny portion of an awesome treat is the end all....the highest value treat...well, unfortunately for some...the "awesome treat"...the item with the highest value might be a beef rib with bloody red meat on it...I rather doubt a TBIAT will compete with that....hence my comment...what happens when there is no "higher value" treat.


Why on earth would you be playing training games using a beef rib with bloody red meat??? There's no need to compete with that because once you give it to your dog you should leave them the heck alone to enjoy it! Of course a dog isn't going to give up something like that for a little treat, and why should they? If this was something my dogs weren't supposed to have and I was dumb enough to have left it unattended on the kitchen counter and they go ahold of it, then I would simply go to them and take it away. 

Trading games are _training_, not the real life that happens afterwards. As I said before, you give up the thing, you get rewarded, and you get the thing back. If I were to decide to use something super high value to train, I would maintain possession by holding onto the other end. But I really see no need for that since the only time they'd need to give up something like that is if I did NOT give it to them in the first place, and at that point whether they drop it on cue or I pry it out of their mouth really doesn't matter to me. In either case I get it back without any fuss, and they're certainly not going to be rewarded for giving up food they stole of the counter. 



> In my opinion the "trade game" seems to be void of a real understanding and is predicated on a bribe of sorts...when the day comes when you have nothing to "bribe" the dog with or the dog has THE highest value reward...you are screwed....


Sure, if you plan to spend your dog's entire life trading something for something else, even up to the highest value items. But why would anyone do that? _You_ seem to be missing the point! I don't need to bribe my dogs to give up the highest value items (in this house it's bully sticks) because I don't let them have one until I'm good and ready to give it to them, and when I do it's theirs. BTW, I use bully sticks to practice impulse control - dogs have to sit, I hold one right in front of each dog's nose, and they have to maintain eye contact until released to take it. They know if they stare at the stick or try to grab it before I say okay, they'll just have to wait longer before I let them have it. 



> but, yes..the lesson supposedly here is ...after you have played the trade game for awhile and the dog has learned, there need be no more trading because the dog will freely surrender whatever it is one wants....*I don't buy into that personally*.


Probably because you don't train that way.  I do. And no, I don't practice trading stuff with them forever - they know there's no need to guard from me, I don't ask them to give up high value items that I've given to them, and if I haven't given it to them I don't expect them to drop it for a treat, I simply take it away.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> *I never use a different object. I teach them drop it and give the same thing back to them. I don't give them a treat for dropping it, their reward is getting the toy back after they give it to me*. That is one command I just don't reward for. If I want them to drop it I expect them to drop it immediately. I also expect them to learn leave it and once they drop it I might enforce that with a leave if to guarantee they won't pick it back up.


I work up to that. When I'm training a new puppy, they have no concept of what "out" is, so I'll hold a treat right up to their nose, and mark it when they drop the ball to eat the treat. Once they're doing that consistently, I add the verbal cue right before offering the treat. All of my dogs have been pretty ball obsessed, so I'll use a treat to get them to drop the ball, but then they also get the ball thrown again. Once they figure that out, I don't need a treat anymore, they understand that in order for the game to continue they have to give up the ball.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdsar said:


> There is a big difference in training dog from a young age to defer to you and not have any issues if you take something from then, and a 2 year old dog suddenly showing guarding signs.
> 
> A 2 yo dog, has probably been showing some kind of sign, probably unrecognized, but still there. Problem being, that dog is now big enough to take you down. So extreme caution must be taken. Way more so than in a puppy.


^This. For me, trading games are part of my foundation training with each puppy I bring home, to prevent guarding issues. Once I've established that trust, I don't find it necessary to constantly maintain it by continuing to trade stuff. I also do NILIF from the beginning so my dogs are constantly practicing deference behaviors as part of routine daily life - "house rules", if you will.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Why on earth would you be playing training games using a beef rib with bloody red meat??? There's no need to compete with that because once you give it to your dog you should leave them the heck alone to enjoy it! Of course a dog isn't going to give up something like that for a little treat, and why should they? If this was something my dogs weren't supposed to have and I was dumb enough to have left it unattended on the kitchen counter and they go ahold of it, then I would simply go to them and take it away.
> 
> Trading games are _training_, not the real life that happens afterwards. As I said before, you give up the thing, you get rewarded, and you get the thing back. If I were to decide to use something super high value to train, I would maintain possession by holding onto the other end. But I really see no need for that since the only time they'd need to give up something like that is if I did NOT give it to them in the first place, and at that point whether they drop it on cue or I pry it out of their mouth really doesn't matter to me. In either case I get it back without any fuss, and they're certainly not going to be rewarded for giving up food they stole of the counter.
> 
> ...



You are preaching to the choir mostly...

Most of my comments were critiquing the "trade game"....I don't use any "trade game" tactics....I think it is counterproductive. 

Oh, as far as "* I hold one right in front of each dog's nose, and they have to maintain eye contact until released to take it. They know if they stare at the stick or try to grab it before I say okay, they'll just have to wait longer before I let them have it.* "....on occasion..I will put raw beef cubes on the tops of her paws ( while she is in a down/stay ) and if I am really feel like treating her like a trained seal...I'll put one on her nose ( balanced ) and have her wait until I say "okay"...never a problem...so yes, I do "train like that" but actually wonder why the heck I do.



There are times however, if a particular meaty raw bone is mostly eaten and I choose to discard it because the dog has eaten the heads off and I have a concern regarding the harder more apt to splinter shaft. perhaps a lamb shank meaty bone...I very well might ask my dog to drop it, so I can discard it...can't help my paranoia I guess ...however the dog willingly drops it...

However, I did want to clarify and apologize to the OP as I believe this post expresses my thoughts as well...

Originally Posted by *gsdsar*  
_There is a big difference in training dog from a young age to defer to you and not have any issues if you take something from then, and a 2 year old dog suddenly showing guarding signs. 

_

Much of this thread has not directly addressed the OP's current situation as the dog is 2 plus years old.....and much of what I have posted does not address this particular situation....instead it has been focused on "foundation training" from day one...as you previously cited. Hopefully, even though the topic has evolved into a different solution such as foundation training...maybe others will benefit from this who are just starting off with a new pup. No doubt, starting off in the very beginning properly, one has the best chance to avoid this situation in the future.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

simba405 said:


> I find the trade up game great. You guys would punish a dog for resource guarding food? That sounds like a great way to build trust with a dog that already has trust issues.
> 
> Btw I find resource guarding a ball vs guarding food very different.


Building "trust" with a dog comes through leadership...allowing your dog to growl and snap at you while over their food bowl and not correcting it erodes at the leadership/trust. Your view sees "punishment" AKA correction of behavior in a method which is unpalatable to you, seems to be almost coddling. If your dog did what the OP's did...do you believe that a "bad doggy tsk tsk tsk etc" would have any impact? I also am curious, if you believe a dog lives in the here and now and one needs to seize the moment to affect change....because once a few seconds go by ..one has missed their chance to educate their dog on behavior which will not be tolerated.

One other question, is it not "punishment" to make any corrections with a leash ? Is it not "punishment" to quarantine a dog in it's crate when it needs a "time out" and deprive it of companionship?...sorry I had to use the silly phrase "time out" because it so sugarcoats the action but is typical of today's culture which tries it's best to coddle away all of life's problems in some cheery "feel good" fashion which makes the human feel better about themselves....which I find ridiculous. Is it not "punishment" not to give a dog a treat/reward if it doesn't act in accordance with your wishes? I would wager you use "punishment" in many forms with your dog but just label it something more acceptable to make you feel all warm and fuzzy.

Bottom line, sometimes punishment/discipline is the best thing one can do for their dog as over the long haul, undesired behavior is stopped cold in it's tracks. I would say punishment/ discipline is an integral part of dog training at times but most certainly not the majority of time.

If your dog bit you or someone else unprovoked...what exactly would you do?? I am curious.

SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What I don't understand about threads like these is that the OP doesn't take part in the discussion after the first post. Instead everybody chips in and starts talking in circles. At one point the thread should be closed if there is no feedback from the OP. To these OP I have a question: why post if you leave the thread?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I also don't find the trade up game to really make sense. You can take away a toy to give a biscuit, but it doesn't help if the toy is of higher value to that particular dog. What we might think is high value to them might not mean squat to them. For example The highest value thing for my female GSD is her rock, she has had this rock since she was a pup. She found it in the bushes. It's a bigger rock, when I moved I took her rock with us. She just loves that rock and nothing else matters. I would not have put a rock in my rotation of trade-ups


I read this and thought.." how considerate of you and aware to actually take her rock with you to her new home"....you're in tune with your pooch no doubt.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

sparra said:


> Most dogs just don't have it in them to resource guard......I have never had a dog who does it. I could say it is because my methods are faultless but in reality it is just cause I have never owned one who had it in them to guard.


Or perhaps the indoctrination your dogs received from the first day made the difference....I would suggest it had more to do with what you did from the beginning than any of your dogs not possessing the capacity to resource guard...you just did a great job when they were young...so take credit where credit is due.

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> You are preaching to the choir mostly...
> 
> Most of my comments were critiquing the "trade game"....I don't use any "trade game" tactics....I think it is counterproductive.


Perhaps it's just a question of semantics. To me, a "tactic" would be how I deal with my dogs on a day to day basis in a variety of different scenarios, which would be completely different than actually training something specific. I use trading games as part of my training, not as a tactic to get my dogs to give up something later, after they're adults. 



> Much of this thread has not directly addressed the OP's current situation as the dog is 2 plus years old.....and much of what I have posted does not address this particular situation....instead it has been focused on "foundation training" from day one...as you previously cited. Hopefully, even though the topic has evolved into a different solution such as foundation training...maybe others will benefit from this who are just starting off with a new pup. No doubt, starting off in the very beginning properly, one has the best chance to avoid this situation in the future.
> 
> SuperG


Absolutely! Not all the responses are on point from a "what to do if this happens" basis, but I do think it's helpful to also discuss things from a "how to prevent this kind of situation from happening" perspective as well, because getting the right foundation and establishing the right relationship early on are all key to preventing bad behavior from developing later.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Cassidy...

Makes me appreciate those who rescue problem dogs even that much more....

SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Throw steak at the dog and leave the room...LOL. Thats a new one, I really got to learn more about these new fangled concepts.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Dogs will do what works for them, so Baillif's question about how OP reacted afterwards is right on the money. If a dog growls or lifts a lip, and then right after that is 'rewarded' by the person backing off and leaving them with the prize, then this is 'training' them to RG. The dog will do this every time, because it works. That's why it's important to break that connection the dog makes between showing off their bad behavior and then owning the prize.

Showing off bad behavior is reinforced by dog owners all the time though. Our RGing AmBull was taught that snapping was an awesome tool for her when DH was clipping her nails and after few snaps that got him to stop. Ooops, wrong thing to teach your dog, lol. So how much of her terrible RG behavior was actual real RG, or just her making the connection that snapping and generally being miserable allowed her to get her own way?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Ok then another question. Someone has a dog, it starts displaying resource guarding and then the owner decided to try the trade up option. If the dog in question growls when one takes whatever it is away. Does that person continue to give them the higher value item? If they do that then I would see that as more of a reward and it will do nothing for the dog whereas the other option would be to just take away the item and give a stearn no and walk away.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

llombardo said:


> Ok then another question. Someone has a dog, it starts displaying resource guarding and then the owner decided to try the trade up option. If the dog in question growls when one takes whatever it is away. Does that person continue to give them the higher value item? If they do that then I would see that as more of a reward and it will do nothing for the dog whereas the other option would be to just take away the item and give a stearn no and walk away.



What if you can't take the item away without injury to yourself? People make it sounds so easy, "stern no! And take item away". Not so easy when it's a 95lb male GSD that has no issue escalating. Sorry. But safe is sometimes better. In the short term, yes, the dog was rewarded. I do agree on that. 


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've never done trade-ups with my own dogs, because I'd rather reward for a "drop it/leave it" and reinforce those commands. But I'd guess that the whole point of the trade-up is that whatever you're trading means more to the dog than the original item, so you wouldn't get a growl - you'd get a happy dog thinking "yay steak!" instead, lol.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> I've never done trade-ups with my own dogs, because I'd rather reward for a "drop it/leave it" and reinforce those commands. But I'd guess that the whole point of the trade-up is that whatever you're trading means more to the dog than the original item, so you wouldn't get a growl - you'd get a happy dog thinking "yay steak!" instead, lol.


But you would still be reinforcing the growling by giving the reward, the steak. They aren't stupid , I could see them growling every time just to get the steak


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

But wouldn't the whole point be that you're trading up for the item before the growling starts in the first place?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> What if you can't take the item away without injury to yourself? People make it sounds so easy, "stern no! And take item away". Not so easy when it's a 95lb male GSD that has no issue escalating. Sorry. But safe is sometimes better. In the short term, yes, the dog was rewarded. I do agree on that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I can see distracting the dog so it's a safe situation for the person. Squeaking a toy, going to the door like your letting it out, shaking a food bowl, whatever it is to get the dog away from whatever it's guarding, but once it's away from it and I grab it, said dog isn't getting it back, is not getting the ball, the food or going outside.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

llombardo said:


> Ok then another question. Someone has a dog, it starts displaying resource guarding and then the owner decided to try the trade up option. If the dog in question growls when one takes whatever it is away. Does that person continue to give them the higher value item? If they do that then I would see that as more of a reward and it will do nothing for the dog whereas the other option would be to just take away the item and give a stearn no and walk away.


You have to time things better - be smarter than the dog is what my parents always said, and understand the dog so that you don't have that growl to make that choice - you have put yourself in a lose-lose situation instead of setting up for the win. That's on you, not the dog. 

Like gsdsar said, I had a 90# GSD foster who had been in a cruelty situation in GA where the owner was actually charged and convicted - in GA - that's not easy. My understanding, and what I disclosed to potential adopters, was that the dogs were in such a bad place, that they were eating other dogs. I got this dog and figured he might have some food issues, as gentle and as scared of the outside world as he was, he was not sure about me and he was not sure he'd eat every day (also turned out he had EPI so I am sure that made it worse). I made sure to start from the beginning with just every time he saw me, food was there, for doing nothing. I'd walk by, toss some food at him. 

So I am associating me with food and food is good. I am always giving because it's not time to take away yet. This is going back to the beginning. This is starting your timing. This is preventing the dog from going over the threshold so that the growl does not happen. 

With your dog that growls, I ignore, and move on and think it through - how can I do better. I might also re-do a shut down, work on basic obedience multiple times a day, re-engage the dog in the relationship if you have one, work on it if you do not. In the OP's case they messed up and it's easy to sit back and say if you have a good relationship with the dog they will never growl - mine have not. But that's neither here nor there, what happened happened. 

Keep preventing the growl, keep working on the distance, keep reinforcing what you want and walk away from what you don't. Play some leave it games if you feel comfortable with the dog - the kleenex on the floor vs a cat treat, whatever is better is in your hand, the less desired on the floor. When you say leave it, that dog's head should be in your hand - not by force, but because they know they're going to get something even better. 

I'm not about to look like the lowest dog on the totem pole and try to fight a dog for a piece of food. I tend to drop stuff and I am constantly getting the dogs to give me what I dropped and they know praise is going to be there at the least - which is enough, and probably something tasty, which is a bonus. We make things too difficult by coming up with these scenarios that can largely be prevented by thinking it through and not just we as people mindlessly going from action to action like that Monty Pyton twit Olympics skit.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> But wouldn't the whole point be that you're trading up for the item before the growling starts in the first place?


I am guessing this would be the ideal situation and I can see it working on a younger dog or to prevent it from happening at all. I still don't do it, I teach the commands drop it and leave it. It seems like some people think that it can be done once the growling starts and that is what I am not understanding. When a 90 pound GSD is growling I don't understand how trading up will teach the dog anything but how to get its way.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm, well I don't understand why you'd distract a dog away from something and then withhold the reward  To me, that would teach them distrust and you wouldn't be able to distract them the second time. You're right, they aren't stupid.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You have to time things better - be smarter than the dog is what my parents always said, and understand the dog so that you don't have that growl to make that choice - you have put yourself in a lose-lose situation instead of setting up for the win. That's on you, not the dog.
> 
> Like gsdsar said, I had a 90# GSD foster who had been in a cruelty situation in GA where the owner was actually charged and convicted - in GA - that's not easy. My understanding, and what I disclosed to potential adopters, was that the dogs were in such a bad place, that they were eating other dogs. I got this dog and figured he might have some food issues, as gentle and as scared of the outside world as he was, he was not sure about me and he was not sure he'd eat every day (also turned out he had EPI so I am sure that made it worse). I made sure to start from the beginning with just every time he saw me, food was there, for doing nothing. I'd walk by, toss some food at him.
> 
> ...


I can understand all of this and it makes sense to me.. Did the dog you work with end up in a good home without issues ?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I am guessing this would be the ideal situation and I can see it working on a younger dog or to prevent it from happening at all. I still don't do it, I teach the commands drop it and leave it. It seems like some people think that it can be done once the growling starts and that is what I am not understanding. When a 90 pound GSD is growling I don't understand how trading up will teach the dog anything but how to get its way.


If the dog is guarding something you seriously think the dog will listen to your drop it command? Let's say by some act of God the dog listens and you take the item away. Do you think the dog will listen next time since all you did was take his item away? 

Like I said, you sound like someone who has never dealt with the problem and just speaking out of their you know what....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Hmm, well I don't understand why you'd distract a dog away from something and then withhold the reward  To me, that would teach them distrust and you wouldn't be able to distract them the second time. You're right, they aren't stupid.


I would do that in that particular situation for safety reasons. You are right they would probably not fall for that twice. But you now know what your looking at with this dog and mentally go over the options you have. All I know is that my GSD's are very tuned into me and they know when I am not a happy camper and they try really hard to make me not mad. If I gave mine an attitude and the look if they growled at me that would be enough for them to make the right choice. Like Jean said you have to be smarter then the dog.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Tried the "trade up " gig with my shepherd....thanks a ton everyone...I'm on the hook for big $$$ now....she decided to trade up on "our" old Chevy truck for a 2014 C63 AMG Mercedes Gelandewagen....that's gonna cost me big time.

So, what's the next "trade up" a Gulfstream G650 jet?

Man...you have to be loaded to use these new training techniques.

SuperG


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes - I fostered him for 10 months - the EPI was a blessing, because he was a gorgeous dog and many people wanted to look past the fact that he had behavioral needs (and some slowness intellectually), but the expense of the enzymes was a different story and weeded everyone out that was not a match. A family that lives in an isolated setting, but were still able to do continued socialization adopted him. They've had some work to do - not on resource guarding but the dog has a very hard time adjusting to change/new things. He has no experience in that! But he's done well and goes on vacations and camping and is really well loved. We did a few different meetings before adoption - they went to his grooming appointment, they hung out with him to watch how I handled him at a meet and greet, and we went to their house so he would be familiar with it. It was very hard to help lift him into their car because he didn't want to go. But he is happy and doing great - he goes to the picnic every year and looks amazing and does well with a couple of hundred people and dogs. Thanks for asking!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> If the dog is guarding something you seriously think the dog will listen to your drop it command? Let's say by some act of God the dog listens and you take the item away. Do you think the dog will listen next time since all you did was take his item away?
> 
> Like I said, you sound like someone who has never dealt with the problem and just speaking out of their you know what....


Listen I'm doing something right since I don't have any trust or guarding issues. Does that mean one day I won't? It doesn't and I'm very interested in hearing what some of the more educated people have to say and that is not you, since you have nothing to say other then to question what questions I have. As in training there is more then one method and I am open to trying new things if I feel they make sense to try. I'm not some new dog owner or a new person on this forum and your demeaning attitude doesn't do anything but make you look bad and I'm not running away from it. I will keep asking questions, I will keep throwing out scenarios that can and do happen. My mom always taught me that if I had nothing nice to say them don't say it all, you obviously weren't taught that life lesson.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Yes - I fostered him for 10 months - the EPI was a blessing, because he was a gorgeous dog and many people wanted to look past the fact that he had behavioral needs (and some slowness intellectually), but the expense of the enzymes was a different story and weeded everyone out that was not a match. A family that lives in an isolated setting, but were still able to do continued socialization adopted him. They've had some work to do - not on resource guarding but the dog has a very hard time adjusting to change/new things. He has no experience in that! But he's done well and goes on vacations and camping and is really well loved. We did a few different meetings before adoption - they went to his grooming appointment, they hung out with him to watch how I handled him at a meet and greet, and we went to their house so he would be familiar with it. It was very hard to help lift him into their car because he didn't want to go. But he is happy and doing great - he goes to the picnic every year and looks amazing and does well with a couple of hundred people and dogs. Thanks for asking!


That is such a nice story and happy ending. I would have been a foster failure after that long. I surely would have cried like a baby when I put him in the truck and he didn't want to go


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Listen I'm doing something right since I don't have any trust or guarding issues. Does that mean one day I won't? It doesn't and I'm very interested in hearing what some of the more educated people have to say and that is not you, since you have nothing to say other then to question what questions I have. As in training there is more then one method and I am open to trying new things if I feel they make sense to try. I'm not some new dog owner or a new person on this forum and your demeaning attitude doesn't do anything but make you look bad and I'm not running away from it. I will keep asking questions, I will keep throwing out scenarios that can and do happen. My mom always taught me that if I had nothing nice to say them don't say it all, you obviously weren't taught that life lesson.


So basically you can't answer those questions that I asked. Of course not...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

simba405 said:


> If the dog is guarding something you seriously think the dog will listen to your drop it command? Let's say by some act of God the dog listens and you take the item away. Do you think the dog will listen next time since all you did was take his item away?


The thing is, when you teach the dog to "drop it" and "leave it" then there's no reason to take the item away because the dog has willingly given it up. You don't need to snatch it up right away, you just need to reward for following the command. That's what I prefer.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> So basically you can't answer those questions that I asked. Of course not...


My dogs drop anything I tell them to, without question. If I tell them to drop it, it's because I don't want them to have it. They are trained to know this. I don't bust my butt training them from day one and I expect them to listen. The drop it command like the come command can be a life saving command, if whatever they have is dangerous for them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> The thing is, when you teach the dog to "drop it" and "leave it" then there's no reason to take the item away because the dog has willingly given it up. You don't need to snatch it up right away, you just need to reward for following the command. That's what I prefer.


Thank you. This is it exactly. The dog has made the choice to obey. Mine can be across the yard, I tell them to drop it, they do, and then they come to me. It's very automatic how they do it, because it's ingrained in their brain.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

So far...the best advice I have read was Baliff's ( I believe ).

Correcting the dog for growling and snapping the moment it happened but being savvy enough to not take the food item away at the end or not giving it back...so hopefully the dog connects the dots....growling/snapping at owner = not good. Rather than disciplining the dog and taking the item away without returning it....I can see the potential for confusion in that scenario.

Hopefully, I have that correct.


SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

llombardo you are not grasping the concept that you have to lay a foundation before you put on the walls or roof

watch this vid which shows loosely how the trade up works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nuqCxleShQ

training is not a one time shot or a day of doing this or that and the problem is gone or non existent
training is an ongoing thing which is why free feeding a dog is not recommended because mealtime and food are excellent relationship builders and give you training opportunities

this is the foundation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdB1Rb1kGxE

if you missed laying the foundation or did it wrong or adopted an older pup or dog resource guarder then this is better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjpP5EZC7HI


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sounds to me llombardo has done nothing but describe "foundation training" hence the success he/she has with his/her GSDs.

As described..busting one's butt from day one is the name of the game.


SuperG


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The trouble with saying "correct the dog" is that most people will be upset and attempt to take the item from the dog's mouth. I don't have to say how badly that might end, lol! I did correct DH's dog for lunging like a crocodile when she was being possessive with a bone, but this correction was an instant "Go to your bed!" and there she stayed. The bone was left on the floor where she left it, and she did learn that if she wanted to eat her bone in peace then she'd have to do it peacefully.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Hmmmmmm... I'm guessing if my dog snapped or growled at me....she'd be lucky if all she had to do was "go to bed"...

SuperG


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, but it wasn't my dog


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> llombardo you are not grasping the concept that you have to lay a foundation before you put on the walls or roof
> 
> watch this vid which shows loosely how the trade up works
> 
> ...


I understand the concept. I understand how it could work for a puppy. I am open to the idea for future pups I might have. I do not see how this would work for an older dog that has been in the home since it was a pup and the foundation has been laid in a completely different manner. If this foundation wasn't laid to begin with, the dog is already set in its ways, so it becomes more complicated.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Yeah, but it wasn't my dog



Excellent point and good control on your behalf.

SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

watch the video and learn 
the 2nd vid pay close attention to how that dog is being worked with
basically the owner created the issue by making the dog feel insecure about its meals 
once you redeem yourself as the provider instead of the taker the dog relaxes

*she'd be lucky if all she had to do was "go to bed"...*
the problem with smacking your dog around is that once behavior escalates 
and it will
where do _you_ escalate to
to deal with the escalation?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The big difference between "DH" and "ex BF" lmao!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Sounds to me llombardo has done nothing but describe "foundation training" hence the success he/she has with his/her GSDs.
> 
> As described..busting one's butt from day one is the name of the game.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate this. Thank you for understanding what I was trying to explain and just so you know I'm a she..lol.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> *It seems like some people think that it can be done once the growling starts and that is what I am not understanding.* When a 90 pound GSD is growling I don't understand how trading up will teach the dog anything but how to get its way.


:thinking: Is anyone actually saying that? Who?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

no i know she knows about foundation but is not seemingly able to apply it to these situations 
that is a situation where the foundation was not laid
or a foundation of mistrust was laid instead
you are definitely going to do things differently then!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Is anyone actually saying that? Who?


The OP stated what happened, the dog is older. Never growled before and within a couple posts it was recommended to do the trading up. So yes it was recommended once the dog already showed resource guarding.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

what we 
or myself anyway
mean is to start the trading up game now as a training technique 
but in a controlled manner with low value items and not just toss a guarding dog a steak bone and try out of the blue to take it 
but you can start working on the training technique any time as long as you understand how it is done
which is why i posted the vids to show how it is done

with any training such as this you want to work under the dogs threshold because if it crosses the threshold it is pointless and the ops dog was over the threshold for training at that point


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> no i know she knows about foundation but is not seemingly able to apply it to these situations
> that is a situation where the foundation was not laid
> or a foundation of mistrust was laid instead
> you are definitely going to do things differently then!


Perhaps the happy ground we can all agree on is there is numerous ways to end up at the same place.

I think we all agree, starting from day one on a proper course gives one the best chance to not have to deal with behavioral issues such as the one the OP cited.

If a dog which someone owns from a pup all of a sudden out of nowhere exhibits this nasty behavior are we to assume it was due to a failure of a foundation not being laid previously....or might it be that the foundation just needs to be revisited and "enhanced". Perhaps a 2 year old dog is still testing the boundaries as it sees fit ?

My first dog...the only dog which ever growled at me ( probably a couple years old as well ) decided all of a sudden that the bed was his when I was moving him to make room for all. He growled and showed teeth...needless to say, in an instant the dog was moved from the bed coupled with a thunderous vocal command as well...probably was still in the laying position as he "floated" off the bed with assistance. After I settled in, I welcomed the dog back onto the bed....never had a problem again..."foundation" was revisited, reinforced and all order was as it should be.

Now envision the trading up scenario in my case...I try and move the dog...dog growls and shows teeth ..so let's say I went to the kitchen and got a bit of cheese and lured the dog off the bed or to a different spot and then got into bed..all is good again correct? I'd venture to say not...I think all I would have accomplished was empowering and emboldening the dog had I taken that tact. I think the reason I am so adamant about this is the fact that a dog that growls at it's owner is one I could not own if it persisted to any degree....I understand those who rescue dogs are in a different camp at times, however.

Do the different approaches which are being bandied about really just reflect the mindset of the owners? Those who choose to find a benign non-physical method versus those who will use physical discipline on rare occasions when required? I am for whatever works best and the last thing I want to do is match a dog's aggression with equal or more overpowering aggression on my behalf but have and will resort to that if it is demanded. Does that mean I beat my dogs and physically dominate them to get a result...of course not...I simply return in kind and when a dog ups the ante to the degree where a cookie will not cure the problem, one must venture elsewhere.....

SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

why would your dog who you have owned all this time and never growled when on the bed suddenly growl when on the bed?

you can what if this thing to death which is all you and llomb are posting now

the key is laying that foundation and building a relationship of trust and respect with your dog so it feels no need to growl when on the bed

and the 1st page contains a link with a detailed description of how to work with your dogs to avoid these scenarios in the 1st place
perhaps you missed that link

The “trade game” for dogs | Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004

*For this first session, make sure the treats are a better reward than the first object. So, for example, a rawhide bone and a handful of cut-up steak.

You sit down, and show the dog the first thing. Squeak it, shake it, whatever. The dog should come over and put his mouth on it. If she’s not all that interested, go get a higher-value object, because you do want the dog to think of it as a good thing.

When the dog is happily interacting with the object or chew (keep it in your hand while she is doing this) you cheerfully say “Trade!” and bring your other hand over and shove a Tiny But Incredibly Awesome Treat in her nose.

She will, unless she’s really unusual, immediately let go of the first object and go for the TBIAT. And you pull the first object slightly back, give her the TBIAT, and say “Good girl! Yay! Goooood trade!”

And then repeat. Offer the object, let her put her mouth on it, then say “Trade!” happily and offer the TBIAT.

Most dogs “get” this very quickly. By the end of twenty repetitions they are rather vociferously spitting the first object out as soon as they hear you start the “T” sound.

And now you just repeat this, several times a day (each time should involve a handful of treats, so maybe 20 reps per session). Begin with the mid-value objects and move up to raw bones, favorite toys, pieces of leather, etc.*

*Trade for the couch (the dog has to get off the couch to come over to you; you go sit where the dog was sitting), trade for a stick, trade trade trade.

For a few weeks, you’ll do this a LOT. Then, in the same way that you don’t necessarily ask the dog to sit a zillion times a day for its whole life, you can reduce the frequency. I probably do this with Clue once or twice a month, since she’s known it for two years and has no guarding issues. I need to be doing it with Bramble about ten or twenty times a day. I did it with Ginny a lot when she first came, not as frequently now that she rarely feels worried about hands anymore.*


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*..I think all I would have accomplished was empowering and emboldening the dog had I taken that tact.*
lol okay i figure youd see it that way but here is the thing
the dog lost the thing it was guarding so how again are you 'embolding' it?? 
it has no more resource to guard and you took its place on the bed so how did it win?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Because the dog growled/showed teeth...I leave the room...come back with a treat and bribe the dog to move....since I am a sincere believer that a dog lives in the here and now...there was absolutely no correction for the dog's previous growling hence it is emboldened to continue acting the same way in the future....moving the dog with a treat in no way communicates to the dog that the growling was unacceptable..and perhaps entices the dog to go back to the bed in the future...claim it as his...growl....and then get a treat...if the dog is smart enough.

In the real case scenario...not the trading up hypothetical...the dog temporarily lost what it was guarding....but most importantly ...it was not the issue of what the dog was guarding...it was the behavior exhibited...and furthermore, once order was restored the dog was back on the bed..so the dog lost nothing in relationship to the actual item it was guarding.....just a refresher course on civil conduct.

Does that make any sense ???


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

my boy diesel,


I appreciate your conviction to your approach....

I do have a question for you...what I am hearing you say is....if your dog ever growled/snapped at you...you would never react to that infraction whatsoever but resort to a series of trading up ploys over the upcoming weeks and in that method..assume the dog will never growl/snap at you again..correct?

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> The OP stated what happened, the dog is older. Never growled before and within a couple posts it was recommended to do the trading up. So yes it was recommended once the dog already showed resource guarding.


Ah, I see why there's confusion. But this is the post you're referring to, which is the first time the trade up game is mentioned:



my boy diesel said:


> trade up
> The “trade game” for dogs | Ruffly Speaking: Railing against idiocy since 2004


It's the 5th post in the thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-sigh-possession-aggression.html#post5560658

But if you read the link, it's about using trading games _to train_, not as an emergency measure to get something away from your dog after they've begun to resource guard. And in fact, the thread isn't about taking something away from a dog that they shouldn't have at all, it's about a dog that's uncomfortable with people nearby when it has a valuable resource, hence the growling. 

From the link:



> This morning I went looking for a good description of the “trade game,” which is a simple method to lessen food issues and object possession issues in dogs.....





> Instead, assume that any dog who is snapping at you over food, or over a toy, or who tenses up and growls if you try to push him off the couch, is more afraid than he is dominant. He is pretty sure that your hands are coming at him to take away a thing that is making him feel good, and in fact your hands are quite possibly going to make him feel BAD–going to bring discomfort (being pushed off the couch) or bring isolation (putting him in his crate) or bring hunger (taking away food). Those are VERY POWERFUL messages, and we should never be astonished that a dog objects to them.
> 
> So what we need to do is change his mind about what hands mean. You DO need to get your way (he should not be allowed to eat whatever he wants, or chew on a prescription bottle, or guard the couch), but you need to make giving things up to you a positive experience (notice that he is GIVING them to you) not a negative “taking” experience. This is the way dogs do it themselves–when Clue walks up to a dog who has a toy she wants, and she’s actually serious about it (as opposed to inviting them to a game of tug or chase), the dog immediately drops it and backs up. She requests a “give”; she does not ever “take.”


If you read further, there's a detailed explanation which clearly shows this is done as training sessions, which the author suggests working on briefly several times a day for a period of time. So yes, you can definitely start trading game training with an adult dog if you haven't done it earlier, even one that's already exhibiting resource guarding tendencies, but that doesn't mean you're going to be able (and nor should you try), to implement it immediately. Obviously, the training would start with lower value items, not when the dog is already over threshold and actively growling at you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Because the dog growled/showed teeth...I leave the room...come back with a treat and bribe the dog to move....since I am a sincere believer that a dog lives in the here and now...there was absolutely no correction for the dog's previous growling hence it is emboldened to continue acting the same way in the future....moving the dog with a treat in no way communicates to the dog that the growling was unacceptable..and perhaps entices the dog to go back to the bed in the future...claim it as his...growl....and then get a treat...if the dog is smart enough.
> 
> In the real case scenario...not the trading up hypothetical...the dog temporarily lost what it was guarding....but most importantly ...it was not the issue of what the dog was guarding...it was the behavior exhibited...and furthermore, once order was restored the dog was back on the bed..so the dog lost nothing in relationship to the actual item it was guarding.....just a refresher course on civil conduct.
> 
> ...


It does to me. Once the dog acted like he had some manners life as he knows it resumes.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Ah, I see why there's confusion. But this is the post you're referring to, which is the first time the trade up game is mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I agreed with SuperG and that is when everything went to poop


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

This thread is funny. The op created a post and never replies. Then it's just full of people in agreement and one person who can't comprehend 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't really ever work trade up games or anything like that with my own dogs because all of that stuff is more or less taken care of when I hand feed pretty much everything they eat till they are 5-8 months old. They never have a bowl to guard.

Their toys are all conditional on training as well so with the exception of something to chew on that's basically it for things to guard and by that time the trust is there and the cooperation is there and the dog knows I'm not going to violate it often.

In "real life" situations if the dog has something he isn't supposed to have if I haven't taught the out and sometimes even if I did teach it and they just aren't supposed to touch it I'll just say no and a consequence that is intense enough to make them drop it. I don't try to hurry the item out of the way, or put it up. I'll leave it there and let the dog make the choice. Mess with it again and get punished again or leave it there and go on their merry way. If you just tell them to drop it and there's no consequence if the item has value they'll usually just pick it up again, make them value the item less and the story changes. Then you don't have to hide stuff which is nice because I can be messy.

Trading games can have their value inoculating the dog against resource guarding if you're taking items away from a dog but you don't even have to do that. Just punish the dog for messing with it if the item isn't something the dog should have, or manage the dog so the dog can't get it. That's how I can run around with a jacked up half mal half gsd in the house without worrying about him getting into something he isn't supposed to or counter surfing or whatever. Do I have to punish him all the time? No I punish him very rarely because when they try a behavior and the results are bad every single time guess what? They stop trying it!

If you want to insist on petting a dog when it eats stuff make the eating conditional upon being petted. There are lots of ways to get around all those kinds of issues without making it a big training deal. It isn't an issue that usually needs real work till it's already been made a serious operant behavior, and that can't happen unless you reinforce the dog for it and allow the dog to practice the behavior.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> This thread is funny. The op created a post and never replies. Then it's just full of people in agreement and one person who can't comprehend
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Ah I see that you still haven't learned that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say it... Go keep practicing, you might comprehend that one day With that I have some dogs that want to enjoy the beautiful weather outside.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

simba405 said:


> This thread is funny. The op created a post and never replies. Then it's just full of people in agreement and one person who can't comprehend
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I assume all folks involved in this friendly debate over different methods can all comprehend....so let's keep it friendly and be civil.

Once again, I do challenge you to describe how you would approach this problem....what would you do if your dog growled and snapped at you if you came close to his food bowl ?

Most involved in this discussion may or may not have real life experience with this problem...as I have stated ..I had a similar experience with my first dog....I'll take full responsibility for the dog's behavior hence I corrected the dog's behavior....it literally took me 1.5 seconds and I was able to witness the efficacy of my correction immediately and for the following 10 years...never again...did we cross that bridge again.

I also wonder if some folks professing the trade up version as the cure for a 2 year old growler and snapper..would ever test their results or more likely...just give the dog more "room" so as never to see if their method actually worked.....as I said earlier..letting the dog determine the boundaries sounds ineffective and a recipe for pending disaster.

What I did worked...immediately....maybe I was just lucky...or maybe I simply reestablished the boundaries.


SuperG


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

simba405 said:


> If the dog is guarding something you seriously think the dog will listen to your drop it command? Let's say by some act of God the dog listens and you take the item away. Do you think the dog will listen next time since all you did was take his item away?
> 
> *Like I said, you sound like someone who has never dealt with the problem and just speaking out of their you know what....*


I'm sorry but, this is just rude..  llombardo has helped me and gave advice before, if you don't like advice or what someone is saying and offering to you than don't take it. You certainly don't have to be rude about it.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I assume all folks involved in this friendly debate over different methods can all comprehend....so let's keep it friendly and be civil.
> 
> Once again, I do challenge you to describe how you would approach this problem....what would you do if your dog growled and snapped at you if you came close to his food bowl ?


Simple. I'd start hand feeding all the meals for awhile. Then i would add a little bit into his food bowl. Once he finishes I reach my hands into the bowl and give him more. Do this until the dog is fed. If the dog is completely comfortable then I give the full meal in the bowl and will walk by time to time, reach down and add a treat and be on my way. If the dog starts eating fast or body stiffens or growls then i go back one step. Dog needs to learn that you're not taking anything away. If anything his tail should wag because you coming close means good things for the dog. If dog still refuses to guard then I would correct the dog so hard bystanders might call animal control on me. First try to alter how the dog views you and if that doesn't work then punish the dog. 

If a dog gets something and refuses to let go I would distract the dog. Go open the door and let the dog outside. Most dogs would follow you. Use a stick and poke the item away. Lombardo wouldn't know this but with resource guarders they can fiercely protect something but the moment you take the item away they don't attack you trying to get it back. The moment you take it away their train of thought changes. 

Of course if you get a dog that is fiercely guarding then you've been doing something wrong for a while.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Simple. I'd start hand feeding all the meals for awhile. Then i would add a little bit into his food bowl. Once he finishes I reach my hands into the bowl and give him more. Do this until the dog is fed. If the dog is completely comfortable then I give the full meal in the bowl and will walk by time to time, reach down and add a treat and be on my way. If the dog starts eating fast or body stiffens or growls then i go back one step. Dog needs to learn that you're not taking anything away. If anything his tail should wag because you coming close means good things for the dog. If dog still refuses ( *I assume you meant "continues" )* to guard then I would correct the dog so hard bystanders might call animal control on me. First try to alter how the dog views you and if that doesn't work then punish the dog.


There you go...not only was that germane to the OP's original situation but makes good sense....I'd give that a try much sooner than the trade up game...

.....just a basic relearning that good things come from the hand.

Thank you for the input....hope the OP reads that.

SuperG


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Simple. I'd start hand feeding all the meals for awhile. Then i would add a little bit into his food bowl. Once he finishes I reach my hands into the bowl and give him more. Do this until the dog is fed. If the dog is completely comfortable then I give the full meal in the bowl and will walk by time to time, reach down and add a treat and be on my way. If the dog starts eating fast or body stiffens or growls then i go back one step. Dog needs to learn that you're not taking anything away. If anything his tail should wag because you coming close means good things for the dog. If dog still refuses to guard then I would correct the dog so hard bystanders might call animal control on me. First try to alter how the dog views you and if that doesn't work then punish the dog.
> 
> _If a dog gets something and refuses to let go I would distract the dog. Go open the door and let the dog outside. Most dogs would follow you. Use a stick and poke the item away. _*Lombardo wouldn't know this* but with resource guarders they can fiercely protect something but the moment you take the item away they don't attack you trying to get it back. The moment you take it away their train of thought changes.
> 
> Of course if you get a dog that is fiercely guarding then you've been doing something wrong for a while.


Thats what you're supposed to do with resource guarding with food, we did this with a dog at the shelter i worked at, he had very bad food aggression and would attack your legs if you stood even near his bowl. 
However, bones and high value treats antlers, bones, chews are a totally different scenario. Which is what the OP is having problems with. _You can't hand feed a bone.. It just doesn't work that way. 
And stepping back just shows them that when they lunge or growl at you, your reaction is going to be to step back, which is the reaction they had intended you to do and which is why they did the reaction in the first place, which is logical. I'm learning this with my new job and all of the good, bad and ugly dogs i get to work with! _ 
And by distracting the dog with leaving and going somewhere is fine for the mean time, but you are not "fixing" the problem, just running around it. So your approach would not work for me or my dog- our relationship is much deeper than that. 
*And slamming someone else isn't nice. *


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

VTGirlT said:


> Thats what you're supposed to do with resource guarding with food, we did this with a dog at the shelter i worked at, he had very bad food aggression and would attack your legs if you stood even near his bowl.
> However, bones and high value treats antlers, bones, chews are a totally different scenario. Which is what the OP is having problems with. _You can't hand feed a bone.. It just doesn't work that way.
> And stepping back just shows them that when they lunge or growl at you, your reaction is going to be to step back, which is the reaction they had intended you to do and which is why they did the reaction in the first place, which is logical. I'm learning this with my new job and all of the good, bad and ugly dogs i get to work with! _
> And by distracting the dog with leaving and going somewhere is fine for the mean time, but you are not "fixing" the problem, just running around it. So your approach would not work for me or my dog- our relationship is much deeper than that.
> *And slamming someone else isn't nice. *


What you failed to grasp (something that is abundant in this thread) is that what I explained isn't about any certain item or food. It's about teaching the dog good things come from your hands. If the dog thinks this then why would it guard a bone or a dead rabbit etc? It shouldn't be afraid of losing it. 

If my dog got ahold of a rib bone and growled at me this is what I would do. Take away all his food and start hand feeding. It's about teaching. It's not about taking away anything. 

Btw sometimes my dog gets ahold of something he isn't suppose to have. Yet I can call him over and take it from his mouth. He isn't afraid of losing it. I'm either going to examine the item and let him have it; or I'll replace it with something. 

If you actually understood the part about distracting then you would realize it was about taking something away that absolutely needed to be taken away at that moment. It wasn't about teaching anything. I've taken things away from dogs that were ready to rip my arm off. The dog isn't going forward to attack. It's guarding. Imo not that hard to take something away without getting bit.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

simba405 said:


> What you failed to grasp (something that is abundant in this thread) is that what I explained isn't about any certain item or food. It's about teaching the dog good things come from your hands. If the dog thinks this then why would it guard a bone or a dead rabbit etc? It shouldn't be afraid of losing it.
> 
> If my dog got ahold of a rib bone and growled at me this is what I would do. Take away all his food and start hand feeding. It's about teaching. It's not about taking away anything.



I think we all get what you would do AFTER the fact. Your post made sense and is what I teach people. But what would you do IN THE MOMENT. when your dog is growling and charging and guarding from you? Taking his food away is not going to help, in the moment. 

I have to be honest. This thread is confusing me. I have no idea what anyone does or not do in regards to this problem. It's actually funny to me. We all seem to be agreeing. It should not happen, if a dog is raised right. But I don't know that anyone has actually answered the OP question. Or have they? I don't know anymore!!!! 

So how about this:

1. Prevent the issue from the get go. Teach young dogs that good things come when owner gets near their food. Dropping more food in bowl, it something even better. Trading an okay toy with an AWESOME toy!!! Teaching them that owner is the bringer if good things!!! And can be trusted. 

2. If it happens when dog is adult, either rescue or owned animal newly displaying behavior. Be safe, don't get attacked. If that means using something to get the object away, or calling dog off with something wonderful.
3. Teach the dog to not behave this way again, through a method the owner is capable of fulfilling. A sufficiently strong firm correction for agressing towards owner, trade up, hand feeding. 

Did I cover it all? I think we all agree. Just methods may not. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I think we all get what you would do AFTER the fact. Your post made sense and is what I teach people. But what would you do IN THE MOMENT. when your dog is growling and charging and guarding from you? Taking his food away is not going to help, in the moment.
> 
> I have to be honest. This thread is confusing me. I have no idea what anyone does or not do in regards to this problem. It's actually funny to me. We all seem to be agreeing. It should not happen, if a dog is raised right. But I don't know that anyone has actually answered the OP question. Or have they? I don't know anymore!!!!
> 
> ...


Yes i would agree gsdsar! I also think resource guarding goes deeper than the outer meaning, as in your true relationship with your dog. Same goes with handling. 
Not going to lie here, and i just have to say it because thats the way i am, "some people'' on this thread i take as seriously (after things have been said) as seriously as i take this video:


removed - find a silly video of your own for impact


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*..if your dog ever growled/snapped at you...you would never react to that infraction whatsoever but resort to a series of trading up ploys over the upcoming weeks and in that method*
no not at all
i do not push my dogs because i know what i can and cannot do with them
i give my girl a himalyan yak milk chew and she likes them a lot
that would be the only thing she would ever not want me to take so i know that and i am not going to push her or harass her
i need to put it away as i am leaving so i went and got a pill pocket for her and gave her the pill pocket 
i told her good girl took the treat and put the yak milk bone away
simple as that
why would i want to get in a confrontation with my dog?
as to guarding beds and crap they have never done it because i have always been their leader 
their boss
their alpha
whatever key phrase you wanna use
but if they did i would lure them off with a treat and then leash them from then on so i could pull them off without a physical confrontation

it is just not necessary for me to scruff or fling my dogs around or smack them to teach them i want i want them to do and what not to do

*I also think resource guarding goes deeper than the outer meaning, as in your true relationship with your dog.*
with this i agree


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

In the moment I would just open the door and tell the dog you're going for a walk. It worked plenty of times for me. 

But seriously just take a stick or tennis racket and cover the item up. Last I checked it's hard to bark and bite without dropping the item. 

The dog will fiercely guard when they are in possession of an item but the moment you remove them from that item their demeanor change. I've had dogs ready to rip my arm off but once I actually got the item in my hands the dog turned calm and was sitting nicely asking for the item. At least that's what happens in my experiences. If you get a dog that's barking and biting then you've already screwed up quite a bit.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*And in fact, the thread isn't about taking something away from a dog that they shouldn't have at all, it's about a dog that's uncomfortable with people nearby when it has a valuable resource, hence the growling.* 
i got that too which is why i posted a training link

simba has it right
do what you have to do to get the item
if it is poisonous and it takes a bribe so be it

my son grabbed horrible resource guarders collar (not my dog nor his but a guests dog) and literally choked it off a package of grapes
dog was fine and the grapes were recovered 
not necessarily something i would do but it worked because of the situation

you just do what the situation requires but then go back to basics and train train train

because
*If you get a dog that's barking and biting then you've already screwed up quite a bit.*
:thumbup:


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