# Help with 5 day old runt feeding



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Not sure if this is the right section or not, but I need help!


At work, we've been given the opportunity to whelp and raise a bitch's little. The breeder is very knowledgable, but isn't exactly involved with the litter at the moment! My boss is away for trials, and I'm noticing the runt who I've called Vinny, isn't as active, or gaining a lot of weight.

He's holding body temp okay I guess, I didn't notice him any colder than the rest of the litter. The other 6 are thriving, absolutely! Very strong 5 day old litter, at 2 pounds now while Vinny is at just over a pound. He gains 10 grams in 11 hours, while the rest are gaining 60-100 grams in a 24 hour period. Having said this, Vinny gets crawled on and pushed off and out of the way while he's feeding. I constantly put him on to feed, every 30 minutes or so and he sucks for a few minutes, then stops and goes back to sleep. He's not nearly as active as the others, this is especially alarming. So what do I do? I know mothers milk is absolute best, but if he's not eating and gaining the weight.. we need to intervene. I've never raised a litter before and I'm at work with them for only 11 hours a day. I don't know if any local breeders can stop by and give some input. I haven't checked his gums to see if he's dehydrated, but I will in the morning. 

So what do I do? If I bottle feed him, I can't feed him overnight. I can feed him from 7am-6pm. I'm worried if I put him on the bottle, he really won't go back to the real thing if he's used to being 'force' fed like that. Is there any other crucial signs I should look for? It's not acceptable to have a puppy die out, he will eventually thrive like the rest of the litter if I have to stay there 24/7 with him.. So how much do I feed him per day? 6 day old german shepherd puppy, just under 500 grams. He was born smaller than the rest as well. Do I feed him upright, then kind of burp him like a baby? What formula is best to feed? I basically need you all to give advice like you were doing it to somebody who was born yesterday and knows nothing about raising a litter please!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Chance are he's got something wrong and just won't make it either way.
If he is too tired and weak to nurse, good luck with a bottle, it's harder work to do than nursing and puppies don't take to it readily.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

I think he's eating, just not as aggressively as the others (which is pretty darn aggessive) We have to at least try for the little guy, if he feeds from the bottle we can monitor how much he eats and look at him more closely as see if theres any other problem like aspirating or something. Givin it our best shot here.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's so hard to explain it though...what we do here in rescue is get a human infant 4 oz. bottle and a regular nipple w/a hole. If you view a dog nipple (especially one that's in the puppy mouth) it's larger than the ones they sell @ the feed stores or Walmart.

Anyway go get one of those 4 oz. gerber bottles. Then leave the nipple on it that comes w/it. 

I like "First Born" formula if you can find it. If not, try to get what the vet carries. 
If worse comes to worst, try what you find at the store - walmart or some such. And there's a recipe online made with canned milk, google that and see if you can make that if all the suggestions for formula fail.

So then you mix up the formula, or get the already made stuff. Make sure you know what you got and the correct mixture if it must be mixed. For now you may want to buy a bottle of pre-mixed so you don't have to fiddle with mixing.

Now, warm it in a cup of hot water (stick the formula in the bottle and set the bottle in the hot water). Make sure it's nice and warm. Make sure puppy is nice and warm. 

Now, take puppy and lay a towel across your lap. Stick the nipple in the puppy's mouth. This is critical. Keep the puppy on it's tummy while you do this. So basically the bottle is horizontal, not tipped up like you'd feed a human baby.
If you get suck reflex, good.
If not, squeeze gently until a bit of the formula drops on the puppy's tongue. 
Keep doing this - as long as the puppy will swallow it.
If puppy sucks vigorously, great. If not, just try to get as much in it as possible. 
1 cc is a good amt. for a first feeding.

You'll have to work up as it's tummy's probably very small.

PM me if you need further help.

PS. Once you start feeding the puppy formula it won't smell like mama any longer so she might not want to clean it. You'll have to do that, again a lot of this info is found on the 'net. 
We do not use the puppy nursers, though, but most the rest is what I've learned from feeding/raising orphan puppy websites on the 'net. 

The main thing is to always make sure puppy is warm which it sounds like you're doing. Try to get mama to clean it after feeding, unless she quits, then you'll have to take over that too.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you SO much. Momma doesn't want to be in the room anymore, wants to be with me. Thinking this is my fault for monitoring the puppies so much the past few days. Until somebody comes home with the formula, I've been removing a strong, healthy puppy from where it's feeding and putting the little guy on it. If the stronger puppy is thriving off of it, then the little guy should be able to get a fair amount until later. I can't find anything on the web about First Born formula. I'll call around and see who has what, I don't trust myself enough to make a home made formula for him. Can you recommend any other good formulas, or at least what key things I should be looking for and avoid in formulas?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just Born Milk Replacer for Puppies at PETCO

This is what we raised a few litters on. Sorry, it's JUST Born, I always forget the name of it.
I got mine from Valley Vet, you could try to order it from there, and get a package of it locally to get you by for now.

These guys had the best prices by far.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail....0b0d0204ae5&gas=just born puppy milk replacer

But search local feed stores and Petco/petsmart for it for the next few days until some can arrive. For one puppy, one container may be enough which you can get locally, I hope.

I also forgot to tell you we sometimes help make a suction if the puppy has a suck reflex, by gently closing the edges of the puppy's mouth and "sealing" it against the nipple. You really need both hands involved, we also sort of steady the puppy's head, so if the edges of it's mouth need closed against the nipple we can do this too with that same hand. 

It's so much easier to show someone


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I live in the middle of nowhere and have raised many many newborns with plain canned goats milk from the store mixed half and half with water. Does good, no issues. And works if nobody has any formula.
I also started buying Preemie nipples , they are great size for little ones, even 4 ounce Sheltie newborns.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

IME, preemie nipples had too much "give", causing the puppies to gag and choke on formula.

Goat's milk...doesn't have the vitamins and nutrients necessary for growing puppies, but it would do for a day or two before you could get the Just Born in


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

And I think it is important to just try to supplement with this. Some breeders routinely supplement litters. It is important to keep the puppy with the litter as much as possible and just pull out to bottle feed him.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I recently supplemented a few puppies in a 12 pup litter this way.

I would give him 2-3 extra meals a day, making sure his belly is full. I have found that most puppies don't like the pre-made formulas very much.

Mix 1 part goat's milk (canned or fresh) with 2 parts pedialyte clear formula and add about a tablespoon of corn syrup or molasses (do not use honey). Warm this to around body temperature. 

I like the Nuk human baby bottles b/c it makes the pup have to work the nipple, and the case of the little guy in my litter, it seemed to actually *teach* him how to nurse so that after a week he was a much stronger nurser and did well nursing off of mom.

You can also supplement some of the bigger pups with the bottle so that they are less pushy for mom's milk and might let the little ones get more.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Note: the formula I used is what I use in *supplementing* the puppy in addition to having the pup nurse on mom. If I were entirely replacing mother's milk, I would do some more research and might end up using something closer to the Leerburg puppy formula (which is too thick for supplemental nursing and maybe should have additional fluids in it even for replacement feeding).


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> IME, preemie nipples had too much "give", causing the puppies to gag and choke on formula.
> 
> Goat's milk...doesn't have the vitamins and nutrients necessary for growing puppies, but it would do for a day or two before you could get the Just Born in


Gee thanks msvette . thanks for your opinions, but I am allowed mine also. I have raised many tiny babies on goats milk/water until they were able to be weaned to puppy food mix. (even raised one that started out at 4 ounces at birth and was a finished Champion by 1 1/2 years old) so th elack of vitamins/nutrients for a couple of weeks did not hurt him at all.
As far as the preemie nipple, again, have raised multiple babies, fully nursing them and also supplementing them with preemie nipples and had no issue with gagging or choking.
Guess I am doing something right, eh?? Might not be your way, but has worked for years and years.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am not trying to start something. I just hate when you give an opinion or idea that has worked for you for years and someone proceeds to get on and give a reason why YOUR ideas are no good and THEIRS are. 
Just irks me. Opinions/ideas are just that. You reply to a thread that something has worked for you, you say what it is. Doesn't mean the OP has to use it, doesn't mean anyone has to use it, but for another poster to get on and basically say" this won't work because, that won't work because what I said earlier is better" is uncalled for.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I've used goats milk, either fresh/fresh frozen directly from someone with goats, or canned goats milk. I also add a little corn syrup...gives them extra energy. 
I also have goat milk replacer on hand to use if needed. Goats milk is the closest in fat content that you can get to bitches milk. They seem to thrive on this and pick up quickly. I use a regular small baby bottle and nipple. But it is your choice as to what size you want to use. I just find that the larger nipple, actually is closer to size of momma's nipple once they really get to nursing on it. My bitches actually love to clean up their puppies after I've supplemented the pups with goats milk. Goodluck with the baby. 

Just fyi...we used this on a litter of 10 puppies that the mother died 24-48 hours after birth. We ended up saving 7 out of the 10, and they all did pretty good. Fed every 2-3 hours for first several days. Biggest thing is if momma is not taking care of the puppies, you will need to wash and rub the genital area to stimulate them to pee and poop. It's something that just has to be done. Again, goodluck.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I've also used the same to supplement a litter of 15 puppies, to help momma out. Just rotating them to make sure everyone is getting enough to eat.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Kaity, after the pup has fed you'll probably need to massage his abdomen with a warm, damp cloth to stimulate bowel movement. The dam does this for them. I can't remember at what point you can quit doing it. I've only bottle fed kits, not pups, & it's been many yrs even for kits. Christine (Blackthorn) or Wyominggrandma can probably give you more detailed info on that.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Christine (Blackthorn), Wyominggrandma or Marsha (mnm) can probably give you more detailed info on that. All are experienced breeders. My original post didn't mention mnm b/c she hadn't yet posted while I was typing my original reply.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If he IS nursing but just not getting enough of a chance I would take him and put him on the BACK nipples (closest to Mom's rear end) every hour. If you have to, take the other pups out of the box so they can't push him off. Let him nurse until he is full and then put the other pups back in.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I use a cotton ball, rinsed in warm water and squeezed out. gently rub tummy area, usually you will have pee immediately. Then use another cotton ball and move it up and down on the anus, or side to side. Puppy will poop for you. I have found it is around 3 weeks, sometimes a bit earlier when they start pooping/peeing on their own, usually peeing first before you will notice little "rat" poops on the papers. This is really important when raising babies without moms help, they have to poop/pee or they will get sick very quickly. If mom will keep him warm inbetween bottle feedings, most times mom will take care of baby herself for you. If she won't, then you will have to do it.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Oh, if you can put him on moms nipples, keep on puppy on a nipple with him. I was taught years ago, that sometimes the milk will flow faster with two or more babies sucking.. so small baby won't have to use all his energy nursing...Just a thought.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

I gave him some goats milk earlier to get something in him. Later, when momma decided she wanted to feed I put him on the back nipple with another guy, now he's full. His belly is hugeee and hard. Trying to stimulate some poops, not sure if I should wait to feed him the formula until his belly goes down (over fed maybe?) or what.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

If mom hasn't tried to stimulate him, then do it yourself as explained earlier. Leave him with mom and littermates, if they get to eating and his belly goes down and he gets restless but not nursing from mom because he is getting pushed away, go ahead and feed him again.
Just make sure he is peeing/pooping. Puppies pretty much eat, sleep, eat and sleep. if they are crying alot it is usually a sign they are uncomfortable" belly ache, not peeing/pooping, hungry, cold..


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Just irks me. Opinions/ideas are just that. You reply to a thread that something has worked for you, you say what it is. Doesn't mean the OP has to use it, doesn't mean anyone has to use it, but for another poster to get on and basically say" this won't work because, that won't work because what I said earlier is better" is uncalled for.


And yet you have no issue doing that to _me_ in other threads! Funny, that. Works both ways, doesn't it??

We tried preemie nipples at first - and I'll tell you why they failed - if the puppy has a strong suck they collapse too quickly and too much milk comes out.
Before the OP runs out and uses one, I'd like her to know the pitfalls of using the wrong nipple. 
I guess I shouldn't say anything though 




Kaity said:


> I gave him some goats milk earlier to get something in him. Later, when momma decided she wanted to feed I put him on the back nipple with another guy, now he's full. His belly is hugeee and hard. Trying to stimulate some poops, not sure if I should wait to feed him the formula until his belly goes down (over fed maybe?) or what.


Yes, be careful with overfeeding because puppies nurse on mom quite differently than we can bottle feed them. 
We used baby wipes for stimulating and cleaning, btw, it worked well and very disposable. You can also wipe up any mess on them - but we raised a few entire orphan litters and it's also different than supplementing what mom's doing.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I give my opinion, but don't think I come right out and say that someone elses is flat out wrong..because it is not my way of doing things or my way of thinking.

If I do, I apologize. I have learned long ago that not everyone is always right, not everyone is always wrong. Opinions, ideas and suggestions are everyone's right, whether you follow them is your choice. 
Your comment on preemie nipples is just what I mean: I said I liked them and had used them for years without issues after you said they were no good. Now you just did it again: We tried preemie nipples at first - and I'll tell you why they failed - if the puppy has a strong suck they collapse too quickly and too much milk comes out.
Before the OP runs out and uses one, I'd like her to know the pitfalls of using the wrong nipple.

I guess you must be right, they failed for you so they are no good for anyone. I give up.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think we all come across rather abrasive at times. But right now we have a pup that needs to eat. I tried the old bottle thing, and of course the pet bottles were discarded without trying them because I watched a vid from Dr. Hutchison, and went right to baby bottles. 

Not having any babies, I had no idea how many nipples there are out there. So I bought some bottles with nipples on them, and I bought some other nipples that I thought would work if the others didn't. I will never know about that though because the nipples did not fit the bottles I bought. For heaven's sake in this day and age you would think that things would be universal -- ehhhhh!

But the nipple that fit the bottle was just not working until I used a small screw driver thingy and widened the hole so it would flow ok. Maybe this did cause her not to suck as hard on the mother though. Not sure why the dam's work did not seem to work. She drank and drank. I would weigh her before tube feeding, but when I could bottle feed, that was a little easier, I was not concerned with filling her too full.

I used dog-milk replacer. And after a while I added some baby rice cereal to that. 

Cupcake really took a long time to regain her birth-weight and then she grew very slowly. I managed to get her to eight pounds at eight weeks, but she did not really start looking her age until she was 3 or 4 months old.

I am certainly not an expert on supplementing or replacing the dam's milk supply. This pup may have done better on goat's milk. Another pup might have done better on what I was trying to feed. Hard to say. Weigh the pup twice daily, and if you don't think it is doing as well as you like, you might try one of the other choices.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

How's the pup doing?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Has he nursed off of mom more? Hope he is doing better.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> So I bought some bottles with nipples on them, and I bought some other nipples that I thought would work if the others didn't. I will never know about that though because the nipples did not fit the bottles I bought. For heaven's sake in this day and age you would think that things would be universal -- ehhhhh!


There are 8 billion styles of nipples, it seemed. 
Maybe preemies work for some puppies - but the way we used the bottles, if the puppy did not nurse, we squeeze on the side of the bottle and if you use too big of hole (often preemies have those for ease of nursing) then you may squirt formula down the puppy's throat. How we did it, it trickled down and then stimulated the suck reflex finally but only after 2-3 days of squeezing the bottle and letting the milk trickle out.
Also it's a good idea to switch them out as puppies get bigger and develop a better suck. We used nipples designed for older babies then. 

This is why I keep saying, it's easier to show someone than to tell them how. My kids both learned how to nurse puppies when we raised the orphan litter of 8.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Not a chance in the world he would have ate from the bottle we got at the pet store (I didn't pick it up!) I got a 5 oz. gerber bottle, mixed the formula with some goats milk and warmed the bottle in some hot water. He wasn't hungry for it. Put him on the nipple with a strong pup pushing for milk flow as well, I'm going to try and keep him on the dam as much as possible and perhaps suppliment with the bottle. Mothers milk is best! Mix 1 1/2 cup goat milk with like.. 2-4 cups of water and the dam drinks it ALL! For breakfast, I gave her a lamb neck as she turns down her puppy food. I'm leaving her food out, and she decides to eat it later in the day around 4pm. We mix some wet food with water and make a mush and coat the kibble in that, she seems to like it. I'd like to coat the kibble with goats milk because I think she'd eat it, but the kibble will goto mush! I haven't weighed him yet, but his belly is still big and hard. I got him to release some gas yesterday and poop and will continue every hour throughout the day. He had a rough day yesterday with taking goats milk and mommas milk. He's not crying a lot, just cuddling up to his brothers and sisters. He is however, moving around more . He's about a week old (born on the 31st) and yesterday morning he was 500grams, whereas the others are 6-900. He's extremely content wherever you put him, in the scale, cuddle with him, put him by himself.. he doesn't care as long as he's warm. So my plan is to try and eventually get him on the formula if he'll do it, so far he isn't. Keeping him close to his littermates and momma.. I don't know if I can do much more. I'm a bit worried about his belly though! He doesn't show any signs of discomfort or pain in general or when I touch his belly, should I be concerned because it hasn't gone back to regular size over night?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You do have to burp them. 
I forgot to mention that. But wiggling a lot of times will make them burp.
Remember that often if there's an "issue" going on with newborns, they may just not make it. 
You're doing everything right so don't blame yourself. Sometimes there is a congenital problem, or malformation of the internal organs.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

This is true.. He might not make it in a week or two, if he doesn't gain weight.. there's not much I can do about it. He ate a lot today from momma, and then the bottle! Woohoo! He's moving around a lot more today than yesterday. I've been burping him as well, he farted a few times (well it sounded like it!)


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

continued good wishes for the baby. You are trying hard to keep him going.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

He's still kicking it! I broke down today, this breaks my heart too much. Can you tell I'm not breeder material? Haha. Mom doesn't want to feed, I have to sit in the pen with her which is hard to do when my boss asked me to do a few other things around the property. Needless to day, these tasks have been neglected. He's so innocent and way to precious for me to let him down. I only got 2 oz. in him today from the bottle, plus some from momma. Sometimes he takes the bottle, then he stops.. little breaks and goes at it again then tries to go to sleep. He gets cranky when I keep him awake too long, but today it had to be done. Ended up letting him think my finger had food, while I used a dropped to put some milk in his mouth. When I got there, he was around 508. When I left, he was 530. Progressing slowly.. I'll have to stay afterhours with no pay tomorrow for him, if I'm only there for 4 hours to feed him. . yeah, he needs round the clock care and I've only been able to give him 12 hours. When I'm home I can''t get my mind off of him and I'm nervous going to sleep at night and eager to get to work. There's something that really kicks into gear in me with him, not sure how to explain it. I'm sure others who have fought for a pup know what I'm talking about.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Ended up letting him think my finger had food, while I used a dropped to put some milk in his mouth. When I got there, he was around 508.


We have pretty good success with orphans...if they are "okay" when they arrive. We've lost a few that were sick upon arrival. 
One of the puppies had been sucked on (common with orphans that have no mama) and the sibling sucked his intestines out his anus. He arrived from the shelter that way. That puppy died 
I think another one passed too, and one made it. That was pretty rough. I held each one as it passed. I didn't want them to be alone when they left 

Another one, more recently, came to us after being left in a box alongside the road. He had some congenital issue and the puppy kept wasting away. It could not eat right. Not at ALL. 


> Ended up letting him think my finger had food, while I used a dropped to put some milk in his mouth.


I did this, mostly. The puppy had a lot of swelling under his neck. We did not name him, knowing he was not going to make it, but on the way to the clinic, named him Grizzly, so he'd have a name before leaving this earth.

So yeah. We've experience a lot of loss, that is why I am saying...he may just not make it. It's very tough and doesn't get easier. 
We humans don't like to give up, ever...thank you for being there for him.


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