# ScH Protection.. what sort of fight?



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I heard a comment the other day that schutzhund protection is a fight for the sleeve?

I couldn't ask for clarification at that point.

What might that mean as far as training? Is the protection work a fight for possession of the sleeve?


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## Andy-jr. (Mar 1, 2010)

I would not call it a fight for the sleeve. The dog is trained to bark at the sleeve and to bite the sleeve. Once the dog is on the sleeve it's up to the trainer to release the sleeve or hold it. Most trainers will release the sleeve when they feel the dog has given it their best bite and it is a "full" bite so the dogs learn that's what they need to do to get the sleeve.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Samba said:


> Is the protection work a fight for possession of the sleeve?




Ideally the sleeve should only be there to protect the helper. And the helper should be the focus of the dog. The reason the dog focuses on the helper should change in different exercises. The dog should be flushing or detaining in the bark and hold and guarding. He should be in prey, trying to stop the helper on the escape. On re-attacks and drive the dog should show heightened levels aggression with some defense. The dog should be serious about the work not playing a big game of tug-o-war.

A dog can pass without the above, but to get a V rating a dog should show control, drive, energy and and all the facets of aggression. And when a dog is "right in the head" during protection a lot of the problems in protection go away.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I read this based on some of Dr. Raiser's explanations:

"Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog."

Schutzhund Village

Is it all quite complex? Fighting can come out of competition for the prey with a dog taught to that aggression and fight can result in a win? 
Prey is a very active drive that can be utilized in the fight but is not always?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I read this based on some of Dr. Raiser's explanations:
> "Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog."
> 
> Fighting can come out of competition for the prey with a dog taught to that aggression and fight can result in a win?
> Prey is a very active drive that can be utilized in the fight but is not always?


All these things are used as a means to an end and it takes some months or years to get there. Doesn't mean the dog always views it as a battle over the sleeve. Things evolve as the training goes on. Depending on the dog, the stage in training and the dog's age, you may use more of one than the other in order to bring fight but in the end, the dog learns that by fighting and fighting back when threatened, he has success. The success does not have to be in the form of a slipped sleeve either. It can be any of the things mentioned in your quote.

The very good helpers can use many of these things almost simultaneously when necessary and can change on a dime when one of those methods are not working. Mostly, unless you know what to look for, you can completely miss the subtle things a helper does to bring out the fighting behavior and just as easily miss how they re-enforce it. Timing is important and some decent acting ability is also key....along with a personality that matches the job of being a helper.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Samba,

I think what we are working on with Bison is a good example. I am sure I won't explain this exactly right, so others can feel free to jump in to correct or clarify.

Bison lived as a pet for 3.5 years before starting protection, so he didn't have much of an opportunity to express his drives. He has very high prey drive with a quick trigger. He has fight drive, but hasn't used it up until now.

Our helper has been working with him to use his prey drive to bring out his fight drive and then reinforce it. I can see a big difference from when we first started. The different behaviors include a deeper more controlled bark, more fight on the sleeve (pushing into it, pulling, basically fighting), and a more confident stance. Where previously it was COMPLETELY about playing with the sleeve, now it is starting to also be about fighting the helper to get it.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

its not about what there biteing. its about why there biteing.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

lcht2 said:


> its not about what there biteing. its about why there biteing.


Excellent way to summerize it! :thumbup:


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