# Looking for a strong working line breeder in the US/Canada



## gabmnqmz (Dec 31, 2019)

I am currently looking for a working line breeder that produces high drive dogs. The dog will be used primarily for personal protection and psa, as well as detection work. This dog will live in a family environment, but will be WORKED. I am not looking for a dog to just be the family pet/companion. The problem I have found during my search is seeing dogs that don't have the drive/athleticism I am looking for. Trying to find a breeder that produces TRUE working GSDs is proving to be challenging, so I was hoping I could get some recommendations on here! 

*I might add that I know what comes along with owning and training a high drive dog, as I was raised with a Dutch shepherd and exposed to many high drive/intense dogs*

Thanks!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe you should define your idea of drive and athleticism. I know several "true" working GSDs so perhaps your definition is different than mine.


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## gabmnqmz (Dec 31, 2019)

Hi Jax08,
My idea of high drive is a dog with unshakable nerves and superb defense drives (has a will to stand and fight against any threat), outstanding toy drive and will go on the "hunt" in any environment without waivering, paired with a willingness to please and is always ready to work. As far as athleticism, I'm looking for a robust dog that is muscular but not overly so, and is sturdy, powerful, energetic, and nimble. 

I suppose what I DON'T want is a gsd that I have seen more and more breeders producing; too heavy and thick with little consideration for the able bodiedness of the dog. I don't expect the same speed and agility that is seen in malinois or dutchies, which considering what I was raised around, I suppose that is the type of athleticism I am used to seeing. 

I am trying to broaden my horizons and widen my search with working lines and breeders, so any helpful info is greatly appreciated! Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you are looking for something very specific that will highly depend on the individual breeding more than the breeder itself. I also think that you are looking for a very hard, independent, dog, yet a biddable one, and I'm not sure those two traits are easy to get in the same dog. for instance, the Czech dogs will bring the defense but not so much biddability. German Shepherds are not built like Mal's and Dutchie's. They are going to be heavier and thicker and I suspect you maybe, unintentionally, be comparing the two.

Where are you located at? If you were exposed to many high drive/defense dogs, can't you go thru those resources? I would suggestion you go to clubs and watch the dogs until you find what you are looking for. Also go to the Facebook pages for IPO and working dogs. 
I'm not sure most people on the board have the experience to recommend the breeders you are looking for.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

gabmnqmz said:


> Hi Jax08,
> My idea of high drive is a dog with unshakable nerves and superb defense drives (has a will to stand and fight against any threat), outstanding toy drive and will go on the "hunt" in any environment without waivering, paired with a willingness to please and is always ready to work. As far as athleticism, I'm looking for a robust dog that is muscular but not overly so, and is sturdy, powerful, energetic, and nimble.
> 
> I suppose what I DON'T want is a gsd that I have seen more and more breeders producing; too heavy and thick with little consideration for the able bodiedness of the dog. I don't expect the same speed and agility that is seen in malinois or dutchies, which considering what I was raised around, I suppose that is the type of athleticism I am used to seeing.
> ...


So do you want a dog with a high defense drive or high prey drive bc you say both. Dogs usually have a dominant drive. It’s rare to find a completely balanced drive profile. And I don’t think you’d be able to tell that as a puppy 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> So do you want a dog with a high defense drive or high prey drive bc you say both. Dogs usually have a dominant drive. It’s rare to find a completely balanced drive profile. And I don’t think you’d be able to tell that as a puppy


I don't agree with all of this. My girl has very high aggression and very high prey. She can transition between the two (which IS the part that is usually an issue when you have both)

You can have both and there are indications as a puppy, but all puppies are crap shoots even when you stack the deck in your favor.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Get with Nate at Sportwaffen K9 – Dedicated to the Working Line German Shepherd Dog! He now and then has older pups that may fit your criteria. An 8 week old puppy won't be proven to do all that you want. I personally would expect to pay $$$ to get a dog that checks all your boxes. Yet, some puppies fill those needs with ease, it is just the luck of the draw.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with all of this. My girl has very high aggression and very high prey. She can transition between the two (which IS the part that is usually an issue when you have both)
> 
> You can have both and there are indications as a puppy, but all puppies are crap shoots even when you stack the deck in your favor.


I’m not saying that you can’t have both. I’m saying that one is usually more dominant than the other. You don’t wash a dog that has little prey drive and high defense. I’ve seen pups that by 5 months you can tell that defense is the dominant drive. They fire at almost anything. The problem is they tend to have weaker nerves. Oh, and just to give credit where credits due, you also have tons of experience and were able to come up with the rare puppy of balanced drive...just saying. You said “my girl has...” didn’t say all my dogs have had...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IMO, That's not proper aggression. That's poor nerves and reactivity. Yes, people will wash a dog with low prey and high defense. They are hard to train. The bites in the routine are in prey. Bites in aggression are typically not calm. Bites in prey are harder and calmer. But I'm sure you know that already.

I do not have tons of experience and I don't feel my girl is rare.. She is what she is. I would tell you about my dogs but they aren't really the topic. I was just using her as an example.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> IMO, That's not proper aggression. That's poor nerves and reactivity. Yes, people will wash a dog with low prey and high defense. They are hard to train. The bites in the routine are in prey. Bites in aggression are typically not calm. Bites in prey are harder and calmer. But I'm sure you know that already.
> 
> I do not have tons of experience and I don't feel my girl is rare.. She is what she is. I would tell you about my dogs but they aren't really the topic. I was just using her as an example.


I’m actually very interested to hear and learn. Pm me. Also, I don’t think that’s fair to the dog. I believe we’re referring to different things bc I’m not really thinking of sport dogs in this. Although not what I like with a dog, some people seems to love a dog with a low defense threshold and high avoidance threshold. To me, that is aggression. Proper or not, that’s another topic.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I’m actually very interested to hear and learn. Pm me. Also, I don’t think that’s fair to the dog. I believe we’re referring to different things bc I’m not really thinking of sport dogs in this. Although not what I like with a dog, some people seems to love a dog with a low defense threshold and high avoidance threshold. To me, that is aggression. Proper or not, that’s another topic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And isn’t that pretty much your old school ddr/Czech lines?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Jax… defensive dogs can be higher threshold, takes more to tap into their drive state so "hard to train". 
Waiting them out to mature some isn't what many trainers want to deal with...if there isn't high prey, they have to work harder or wait out the dog. I have had dogs with balanced drives because we(helper/TD/Me) had to wait, had to teach the dog transition phase, and the helper knew how to tap into the less 'dominate' drive state. Over the top prey is just as difficult to balance. I'd rather have a dog with stronger defense(with good nerve) and higher threshold, my preference, even though they may be more of a challenge to work for some.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with Jax… defensive dogs can be higher threshold, takes more to tap into their drive state so "hard to train".
> Waiting them out to mature some isn't what many trainers want to deal with...if there isn't high prey, they have to work harder or wait out the dog. I have had dogs with balanced drives because we(helper/TD/Me) had to wait, had to teach the dog transition phase, and the helper knew how to tap into the less 'dominate' drive state. Over the top prey is just as difficult to balance. I'd rather have a dog with stronger defense(with good nerve) and higher threshold, my preference, even though they may be more of a challenge to work for some.


Idk. I guesss my take on it is if you have a “balanced” dog you don’t have to work hard to tap into either. That’s balanced to me. You don’t have to work any harder to get the dog I. Defense than prey. If you do, doesn’t seem like much of a balance to me. If I’m wrong school me bc I’m lacking somewhere. 


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i saw one mention of moving the conversation to PM’s.... although the discussion may still be useful and of interest to the OP, for now let’s try to stay on topic.

while the type of dog that the OP is looking for couldn’t be farther from my knowledge and expertise - anyone know of or have thoughts on any Z Pohranicni Straze lines here in the states?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Fodder said:


> i saw one mention of moving the conversation to PM’s.... although the discussion may still be useful and of interest to the OP, for now let’s try to stay on topic.
> 
> while the type of dog that the OP is looking for couldn’t be farther from my knowledge and expertise - anyone know of or have thoughts on any Z Pohranicni Straze lines here in the states?


Sorry, I’m confused a little, should we go ahead and move to pms or no? 


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Nscullin said:


> Sorry, I’m confused a little, should we go ahead and move to pms or no?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes, unless its directly related to the OP’s breeder search, or a recommendation.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Fodder said:


> yes, unless its directly related to the OP’s breeder search, or a recommendation.


Ok. No prob. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

okey dokey then. 

@*gabmnqmz*

- I would ask on the facebook pages. You will have a better chance of finding what you are looking for.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Fodder said:


> i saw one mention of moving the conversation to PM’s.... although the discussion may still be useful and of interest to the OP, for now let’s try to stay on topic.
> 
> while the type of dog that the OP is looking for couldn’t be farther from my knowledge and expertise - anyone know of or have thoughts on any Z Pohranicni Straze lines here in the states?


zPS lines are gone. The closest you are going to get in the US is most likely z Jirkova Dvora and kennels that work with them. There shouldn't be a problem finding them. I know of a breeder whose bitches were imported from them. I have two males from zPS lines, both are powerhouses in the aggression department, not for the fainthearted.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am so not a fan of this new format...what happened to actually discussions here? Taking conversations to PM is detrimental for those trying to learn? Just because someone asks for breeder recommendations, a bunny trail on their criteria should not be hidden away in a PM, IMO, it is on topic if there is some education to be retained. Drive state and the dogs genetics play into the actual topic.


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## gabmnqmz (Dec 31, 2019)

gabmnqmz said:


> I am currently looking for a working line breeder that produces high drive dogs. The dog will be used primarily for personal protection and psa, as well as detection work. This dog will live in a family environment, but will be WORKED. I am not looking for a dog to just be the family pet/companion. The problem I have found during my search is seeing dogs that don't have the drive/athleticism I am looking for. Trying to find a breeder that produces TRUE working GSDs is proving to be challenging, so I was hoping I could get some recommendations on here!
> 
> *I might add that I know what comes along with owning and training a high drive dog, as I was raised with a Dutch shepherd and exposed to many high drive/intense dogs*
> 
> Thanks!!


I should add that I am not saying I am looking for all of these boxes to be checked off, I realize there is a give and take. I am looking for a breeder that is known for producing quality working lines. I know not every dog they produce will fit into this criteria. I am also not looking to get the dog as an 8 week old puppy, a little older around 5-10 months


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> I am so not a fan of this new format...what happened to actually discussions here? Taking conversations to PM is detrimental for those trying to learn? Just because someone asks for breeder recommendations, a bunny trail on their criteria should not be hidden away in a PM, IMO, it is on topic if there is some education to be retained. Drive state and the dogs genetics play into the actual topic.


I don't think that it is the new format. If memory serves me correctly, there was a handful of newbies that started posting around the same time and they were throwing hissy fits when discussions began to develop. Things would get ugly fast. It put mods in a difficult position. I guess now the forum as a whole suffers. Kiss those meetings of the great minds goodbye.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I am so not a fan of this new format...what happened to actually discussions here? Taking conversations to PM is detrimental for those trying to learn? Just because someone asks for breeder recommendations, a bunny trail on their criteria should not be hidden away in a PM, IMO, it is on topic if there is some education to be retained. Drive state and the dogs genetics play into the actual topic.


Agreed. Good discussion on drives so far, seems completely relevant in understanding what exactly the op is looking for.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

gabmnqmz said:


> I should add that I am not saying I am looking for all of these boxes to be checked off, I realize there is a give and take. I am looking for a breeder that is known for producing quality working lines. I know not every dog they produce will fit into this criteria. I am also not looking to get the dog as an 8 week old puppy, a little older around 5-10 months


Not going to be easy to find a pup 5-10 old within your criteria. Most quality breeders keep a pup or 2 and see how they mature. If not the quality of dog they want they sell. 
If the pup is good they will sell to someone they know and trust will bring the pup to its potential.
im not a fan of the puppy stage myself but I like to do my own foundation.
Good luck in your search


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gabmnqmz said:


> I should add that I am not saying I am looking for all of these boxes to be checked off, I realize there is a give and take. I am looking for a breeder that is known for producing quality working lines. I know not every dog they produce will fit into this criteria. I am also not looking to get the dog as an 8 week old puppy, a little older around 5-10 months


you would be much better asking on these pages









German Shepherd Dog Resource Center | Facebook







www.facebook.com









Facebook







www.facebook.com





Talking to trainers/breeders like Mike Diehl. Nikki Banfield might have something in a litter but she doesn't have older puppies. Amanda Homan has a litter coming up that is close to a repeat litter. WVSP loves the one they have from the previous litter and wants more. Visiting clubs to see what dogs you like. I really don't feel anyone here can steer you to where you want to go. You are basically asking for a K9.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What side of Canada??? Contact Richard at the Buffalo Sch Club...he often brings over young dogs and his partner Radek who lives in the Czech Republic....they will be able to give you what you are looking for as they bring over and sell alot of K9s and detection dogs for Border Patrol....they know the sport, Richard had an awesome Galan Naleg dog who sired my K litter and is a very good guy

Lee


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

I am in Kitchener, Ontario and train (IGP) in London and sometimes out in Toronto. 

I may be able to recommend a few people. Or you could come out and meet some dogs. One breeding comes to mind that may work but these breeders would want this dog worked as it would need to be I assume from both parents (who I have watched grow up and train with).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Eric Grasso in CT imports dogs. He trains K9's so may be a good contact for you to look in to.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you want to compete in PSA, you will fair better with a certain type of dog and will need access to good training. The reason PSA in dominated by Mals is because of their more extreme prey drive which can be used to help keep them focused on their handler and help them push through or mask the stress of some of the exercises. A working dog and a sport dog are different IMO. Many dogs can do sport, but not so many can become quality operational dogs. That is why high scoring, podium dogs often do not make good working dogs. Also, to some extent training a dog in PP and PSA can be at odds with each other. In PSA, it is all about controlled aggression and you could argue overcontrolled aggression. Some of the things a dog is trained to do in a PSA trial, such as ignoring decoys essentially agitating the dog is the opposite of what you want in a PP dog. Wolftraum mentioned someone who imports Czech dogs. There are not many Czech dogs that don't have West German or other working lines in them any more, but, depending on the breeding, Czech pedigrees tend to produce a more defensive dog, which will also make training in PSA more difficult. A good breeding with some Czech, Slovak and West German lines with very good prey drive, a higher defensive threshold and very good nerves is a good match for PSA.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> IMO, That's not proper aggression. That's poor nerves and reactivity. Yes, people will wash a dog with low prey and high defense. They are hard to train. The bites in the routine are in prey. Bites in aggression are typically not calm. Bites in prey are harder and calmer. But I'm sure you know that already.


A dog in aggression/fight drive bite harder with more power to win the fight. The prey brings the fullness. A dog in defense, though, yes, will often get chewy, growly and be less calm. Defense (reactive aggression) and aggression (fight drive or active aggression) are not necessarily the same things, but are often used to describe the same behaviors.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Chip Blasiole said:


> If you want to compete in PSA, you will fair better with a certain type of dog and will need access to good training. The reason PSA in dominated by Mals is because of their more extreme prey drive which can be used to help keep them focused on their handler and help them push through or mask the stress of some of the exercises. A working dog and a sport dog are different IMO. Many dogs can do sport, but not so many can become quality operational dogs. That is why high scoring, podium dogs often do not make good working dogs. Also, to some extent training a dog in PP and PSA can be at odds with each other. In PSA, it is all about controlled aggression and you could argue overcontrolled aggression. Some of the things a dog is trained to do in a PSA trial, such as ignoring decoys essentially agitating the dog is the opposite of what you want in a PP dog. Wolftraum mentioned someone who imports Czech dogs. There are not many Czech dogs that don't have West German or other working lines in them any more, but, depending on the breeding, Czech pedigrees tend to produce a more defensive dog, which will also make training in PSA more difficult. A good breeding with some Czech, Slovak and West German lines with very good prey drive, a higher defensive threshold and very good nerves is a good match for PSA.


Good post. Agree.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Lisa,
I understand your post and agree. The problem with the lingo of dog traits is that it is so subjective and not very operationally defined or people don't take the time to learn the meaning of the lingo or do not agree on it. Technically, there are many types of aggression- predatory (prey), defensive, active , frustration, social, rage, etc. Also, different types of aggression overlap at times and they are coming from different parts of the brain and different emotional states. I'm not so sure, from a purely ethological point of view that fight is a drive so much as it is learned as a result of a dog's drive package and proper training. A dog that genetically has aggression that has an element of fear, so long as the fear doesn't lead to the dog freezing, avoiding or fleeing, can be trained to bite very hard and calmly, but the training has to be good and the dog should be mature and not pushed too quickly. They need the maturity and gradual exposure to learn what to do with their aggression and how to correctly fight. My bias is that, aside form training a dog for apprehension work as a police, military or security dog, many of the protection sports don't allow for a dog to learn to fight that much. I think sleeve sports are less likely to allow for training that builds fighting skills. Of course genetics trump everything. On the other hand, prey drive can be a devastating trait if it is powerful enough and the training is good and the dog does not get locked in prey. Prey is underestimated IMO and it also depends on the breed. Pit bulls kill each other and they are not fighting in defense.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> A dog in aggression/fight drive bite harder with more power to win the fight. The prey brings the fullness. A dog in defense, though, yes, will often get chewy, growly and be less calm. Defense (reactive aggression) and aggression (fight drive or active aggression) are not necessarily the same things, but are often used to describe the same behaviors.


thank you!  That's a piece that I didn't know. All the helpers have always said the hardness bites come in prey. And I have seen dogs in defense be chewy, growly. But there is ONE dog that I've seen that is all aggression when he bites and now that you brought that up, he absolutely would take the helper off his feet and never lift his grip. It's one of Joe's Yogy breedings.

The words are used the same. It's confusing. Thank you. I appreciate you!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> The words are used the same. It's confusing. Thank you. I appreciate you!


And I use them as I learned a LONG time ago including their being a separate fight drive or, as a few others call it, active aggression. These are dogs that love the fight and want to dominate, control and over power their opponent not out of fear (reactive aggression or defense) or out of a desire to win their prey (prey also has variables).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> And I use them as I learned a LONG time ago including their being a separate fight drive or, as a few others call it, active aggression. These are dogs that love the fight and want to dominate, control and over power their opponent not out of fear (reactive aggression or defense) or out of a desire to win their prey (prey also has variables).



do you think the meaning of the words to differentiate aggression vs. defense is getting lost because the dogs that do work in aggression are less common and the ones that work in prey are more common?

From your definition, I would say Seger works in defense and Faren works in aggression. For Seger, there has to be a threat for him to ignite. He needed agitation to make him bark well and, while his grips were always full and good, he wasn't fighting with the helper once he struck. For Faren, she seems to just like to fight without any agitation required. 

And how do you really tell the difference by watching. I just talked to someone who knows Bordy Blendy. From his WUSV performances you would think he's working in aggression. However, this man told me he is ALL prey. That tells me what we saw had a lot to do with training?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

_CHIP WROTE: There are not many Czech dogs that don't have West German or other working lines in them any more, but, depending on the breeding, Czech pedigrees tend to produce a more defensive dog, which will also make training in PSA more difficult. A good breeding with some Czech, Slovak and West German lines with very good prey drive, a higher defensive threshold and very good nerves is a good match for PSA. _

I definitely agree here....it is extremely hard not to find an N Equidius dog in a Czech pedigree if not more WG or Belgian lines. The dog I used for my Ks was Czech and Belgian with haus Melinda and Orry Antverpa....no WG/Fero - he was owned by the tr.aining director of the Buffalo Club. Mixed with my WGR/DDR female, I got the kind of dogs that have distinct prey and active aggression......possibly went a bit strong into DDR with high active aggression on the next generation as maturity is showing the kind of dog you want to have for LE or maybe PSA as two or maybe three are very very strong, more than sport attitude. Quite a few LEO wanted my male for street work, and a couple are doing contract narcotics, certified along with LE K9s. I do scratch my head at all the pet DDR breeders because this is the foundation of the Czech DDR type and yet tons of them are being placed in novice pet homes all over the country.

I have had many discussions, particularly with helpers newer to the sport or very very sport oriented, who just do not understand that there is a difference between defense and aggression - too many people newer to the sport seem locked into 1. prey and 2. defense - fight or flight - and want to pronounce dogs as "nervy" and "fearful" - when the truth is far far the other end of the spectrum. A dog who enjoys the fight, who comes looking for it and enjoys it. When you live with it, have it and train it - then you know what it is.

Lee


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