# Animal rights= arrogance and scary and extreme



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Top 8 Arguments Against Animal Rights

I am so scared for animals in the future. No more breeding causes extinction for a consequence for our beloved animals. If they really cared they would let animals live on. Our dogs are happy to be with humans even animals that are not dogs. The other thing animal rights activists say people do not see the consequences for their actions. Well, black and white as AR people their actions will be a consequence to regret if our worse nightmare does happen. Can't live without animals on the planet interacting with humans. They think all humans are nasty and hate animals. So much extreme black and white. If you ever beat them in arguments "dogs are not given consent to do work, breed to be used whatever". Lol the AR ppl are not giving dogs their consent either.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There are an estimated 164 million pets owned in the US.

Not that I agree with the AR folks, but they are a vast minority.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I would alweays vote against changing original nature of GSD through breedig for the purpose of producing so called "friendly" dog genetically. With the loss of a potential to become agressive GSD loses his intellect. Something happens to dogs bred for being innocuous to humans, and there is a lot of evidence to it: American Cocker Spanial and many other sub-breeds. But, do people need intellectual dogs? No, they don't. Proper raising your puppy, controlling yourself first of all ( GSD grows agressive in families living in conflict, nervous and agressive themselves people) and educating him requires a considerable effort. The majority of dogs' owners *are happy to have a beautiful vegetable on the lead* instead of bothering themselves and paying money to trainers. People like not the dog, but his shape, which is a replica of their old enemy - the wolf. That is where the idea springs from: to have a living toy deprived of claws and teeth. Crowds of dolphin admirers prefer to see them in the circus, not in the wild, some even say that it is the only way to save them - todeprive from freedom. Changing that which was preserved throughout so many centures, GSD temperament and other natural qualities have to be lost to breeding programms, and it terrifies me much more than depriving cats from claws surgically, or chopping off dogs' ears and tails for cosmetic reasons. But, the wish to adjust other living beings and make them more convenient for modern life and future survival of one type of species - that is us, the humans - is above the humans. There is one in a few million can live a single day like Jesus, or be a fraction that much sacrificial like Him. Jesus teachings weren't about animals, but they were and are for many a sound of a *true nature of love to life* in general. Humans are not the gods, they simply uncapable of being sorry with factory chickens who do not and will not have any rights ever, because it is more convenient to think they have "chicken brains".


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm a firm supporter of animal welfare being improved, but giving animals "rights" is a whole different can of worms. 

This is a pretty political subject, and I have to wonder if this discussion is best left on other boards, except perhaps in regards to dog ownership and laws.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

The "lunatic fringe" is only supported by the actions of those who fail to live up to their responsibilities. 

The vast majority of pet owners are considerate, caring and conscientious. As always, too much legislation and "rule" is enacted and supported because the minority ( in this case, the antithesis of the aforementioned majority) gives the entire class a bad name. 

Sad situation but perhaps a mirror of the times.


SuperG


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Animal Rights Vs. Animal Owners | Protect the Harvest

Shouldn't we do something?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*ADMIN NOTE:

ENOUGH WITH THE nasty, snarky comments and subtle attacks!!! This won't be tolerated any more, and warnings will be issued! 

*


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> *ADMIN NOTE:
> 
> ENOUGH WITH THE nasty, snarky comments and subtle attacks!!! This won't be tolerated any more, and warnings will be issued!
> 
> *


I'm not doing anything...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SuperG said:


> The vast majority of pet owners are considerate, caring and conscientious.


 I'm not sure if I agree with that. I see pet owners every day, and a lot of them really shouldn't own pets... it's not that they are horrible people, it's that the dog is an afterthought, a prop, a toy for the children, or a status symbol. Often bought on a whim and then ignored. Most people really don't have enough knowledge of animal behavior to understand a pet's true needs, and behavior problems are often a result. And these are the people that actually care enough to have their pets professionally groomed!

However, the AR agenda is wrongheaded and extreme. Just because SOME people shouldn't own animals doesn't mean it's wrong for ANYONE to own animals.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I'm not sure if I agree with that. I see pet owners every day, and a lot of them really shouldn't own pets... it's not that they are horrible people, it's that the dog is an afterthought, a prop, a toy for the children, or a status symbol. Often bought on a whim and then ignored. Most people really don't have enough knowledge of animal behavior to understand a pet's true needs, and behavior problems are often a result. And these are the people that actually care enough to have their pets professionally groomed!
> 
> However, the AR agenda is wrongheaded and extreme. Just because SOME people shouldn't own animals doesn't mean it's wrong for ANYONE to own animals.


Freestep couldn't have stated any better. Agree 100%, I think before people get dogs or even all dog owners should studying a mass amount of dog behavior and dog true needs.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I always thought it made sense for dogs to have similar rights to children. We can't have them calling all the shots but they should have the right to not be abused, to receive adequate medical care, to not be mutilated for aesthetic reasons. Working dogs should be similar to people signing their kids up for soccer and youth symphony. 

I support the right to freedom from captivity for chimpanzees, dolphins, elephants and such. And the right to remain with their natural families. Except in the case of conservation programs, keeping these animals is exploitation. We now have the technology that we don't need chimps for medical research. 

Most of the extremist AR people I've talked to are not good enough with people to have their message taken seriously. Change will be gradual, not extreme.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> I always thought it made sense for dogs to have similar rights to children. We can't have them calling all the shots but they should have the right to not be abused, to receive adequate medical care, to not be mutilated for aesthetic reasons. Working dogs should be similar to people signing their kids up for soccer and youth symphony.
> 
> I support the right to freedom from captivity for chimpanzees, dolphins, elephants and such. And the right to remain with their natural families. Except in the case of conservation programs, keeping these animals is exploitation. We now have the technology that we don't need chimps for medical research.
> 
> ...


Totally agree and support all of that. The other that I am strongly against is hunting for game and wearing animals as clothing.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> I always thought it made sense for dogs to have similar rights to children. We can't have them calling all the shots but they should have the right to not be abused, to receive adequate medical care, to not be mutilated for aesthetic reasons.


 We already have animal cruelty laws to protect animals against abuse and neglect. I do agree that the laws are not stringent enough, however. In some states animal cruelty is only a misdemeanor. Studies have shown that people who abuse, mutilate, or kill animals often go on to do the same to people. They need to be locked up and given some serious in-depth counseling, and possibly medication.

I'm not talking about hunting, or killing animals for food, clothing, etc... while I don't like trapping animals for fur, I support the rights of hunters as long as they are doing so legally and humanely, with respect for the animal and its habitat. Use what you kill, and don't take more than you need. In Alaska there is a crime called "wanton waste", which is the killing of a game animal without taking the meat.

I also don't like "sport" or "trophy" hunting of big game animals like lions, elephants, etc. or the killing of top-level predators for sport. It's one thing to shoot an animal that is killing livestock, quite another to hunt and kill them for fun, or as a pre-emptive strike.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I'm not sure if I agree with that. I see pet owners every day, and a lot of them really shouldn't own pets... it's not that they are horrible people, it's that the dog is an afterthought, a prop, a toy for the children, or a status symbol. Often bought on a whim and then ignored. Most people really don't have enough knowledge of animal behavior to understand a pet's true needs, and behavior problems are often a result. And these are the people that actually care enough to have their pets professionally groomed!
> 
> However, the AR agenda is wrongheaded and extreme. Just because SOME people shouldn't own animals doesn't mean it's wrong for ANYONE to own animals.


I guess it is hard for me to disagree with your observation regarding the multitudes of dog owners who perhaps shouldn't have a dog. Perhaps, my exposure to other pet owners is a bit sheltered and I have seen a different slice of reality. In my little world, most all dogs in the neighborhood seem well cared for and any conversations with their owners generally yields an individual who truly cares for their pet. I generally find much the same at the dog parks and other areas I might frequent with my pooch...but I see the inconsistency in my premise perhaps. I read articles describing the horrible treatment of dogs and the puppy mills which finally get raided and the conditions described....yes, perhaps I look at my exposure and assume the rest of the world acts in a similar fashion....call that my blissful ignorance I guess. 

I think the real quandary at times, is what each of us base our notion of proper care for our dogs. There truly is an entire spectrum and I do believe it has it's trappings as what one might deem as essential another might view as frivolous and unneeded. Personally, I care more about my dog's well being than my own as well as some other humans. But I do understand that this is my own beliefs and do not expect others to adopt my convictions.

As the old saying goes "...there are no bad dogs only bad owners..." This is my basic premise and it guides me brightly. 

SuperG


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Lobobear44 said:


> I'm not doing anything...


I know.  The warning was aimed at some other posters whose comments have been deleted.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

People shouldn't own wild animals. They're too dangerous even for experienced owners.

That said, I'm against the animal rights' extremists anti-pet ideology. They claim to love animals but they hate people who care for and love them.

I'm on record as believing animals deserve to be treated humanely but the notion non-sentient beings are entitled to any kind of rights is both illogical and absurd!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i take it you don't have leather shoes, leather belt, leather
gloves (sport or dress), leather ball, down insulation, etc.
do you eat animals?



Lobobear44 said:


> Totally agree and support all of that. The other that I am strongly against is hunting for game and wearing animals as clothing.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

I find trophy/sport hunting abhorrent. An animal's life should not be taken to further someone's prestige or for fun! That's not right and its cruelty in the extreme.

There are only two valid reasons to kill an animal: for food and clothing and to protect human life.

Responsible hunters and conservationists know this and while we're permitted to exploit nature for our benefit, it doesn't follow we have license to abuse it to the detriment of living things and ourselves that share the earth with us.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> i take it you don't have leather shoes, leather belt, leather
> gloves (sport or dress), leather ball, down insulation, etc.
> do you eat animals?


No I'm vegan.


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## Thesilentone (Jan 5, 2013)

NormanF said:


> People shouldn't own wild animals. They're too dangerous even for experienced owners.
> 
> That said, I'm against the animal rights' extremists anti-pet ideology. They claim to love animals but they hate people who care for and love them.
> 
> I'm on record as believing animals deserve to be treated humanely but the notion non-sentient beings are entitled to any kind of rights is both illogical and absurd!


Agreed, I don't know how many times I've brought this up. Wild animals should remain in the wild where they belong. Not only would they be too dangerous for the average pet owner but they might not be getting what they would get naturally in their own environment and taking them out of that can disrupt their survival. It's bad enough we are slowly kicking them out of every possible habitat and have nothing left for themselves. Hunting is fine as long as the animal is not pointlessly shot nor at alarming rates e.g. our endangered species. 

I will always believe in animal welfare because every animal deserves to receive the proper care they need and be treated accordingly. Animals rights is just pure hypocritical nonsense. Those that follow it don't make any sense.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Norman, I would agree with you with the addition to control populations that don't have an appropriate level of predation to sustain healthy populations E.g., deer. And I do believe we should take all the feral hogs we can! They are extremely destructive of the environment and are not native species.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

To the OP, read this paper...

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/art_pdf/arus93marqlrev1021.pdf


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Key quote from the article I linked to, one that I think it is important for the OP and other folks to keep in mind when they read the remainder of the paper. Remember that the animal welfare/animal rights community is comprised of a spectrum. This quote lays out where I fall on that spectrum. 

"A premise of this Article is that it is ethically acceptable to continue to have animals within a property status. This premise is contrary to the beliefs 
of a number of individuals in the field of animal rights, particularly those who self-identify as *abolitionists*. Among these writers, the first order of business is the elimination of the property status of animals, and then making animals (or some subset of animals, such as primates) legal persons. This author rejects this path forward. The key ethical question upon which the basis of this Article diverges from the abolitionists is whether it is acceptable for humans to keep, possess, and use animals. Their answer is ―no, and at least some members of this school of thought push the non-use analysis to the point of asserting that humans should not keep, own, and use pets. This author rejects their ethical position upon the belief that positive human communities can include animals that are owned and used by humans."


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Another quote that represents my thinking...

"This Article develops the proposition that non-human animals can possess and exercise legal rights. This proposal is supported by the fact that our legal system already accommodates a number of animal interests within the criminal anti-cruelty laws and civil trust laws. To make a more coherent package of all animal-related public policy issues, it is useful to acknowledge the existence of a *fourth* *category* of property, *living property*. Once separated out from other property, a new area of of jurisprudence will evolve, providing legal rights for at least some animals"


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Nothing should spoil humans having fun:
Sochi orders killing of stray dogs


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yup David, they always clean up for the Olympics. On this side of the pond, they bus away the homeless people. Don't want to make a bad impression on the tourists!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

While oil run Olimpics and their officials kill dogs around Sochi area (they say there are *thousands* of stray dogs) , other countries get more and more oil thirsty, kill the whales in order to get oil:
Australian Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises - Sonar and seismic impacts
Us reported only this: 
U.S. Navy Killing Thousands of Whales & Dolphins With Sonar & Weapons Testing | Collective-Evolution


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Nothing should spoil humans having fun:
> Sochi orders killing of stray dogs


Somewhere people are licensed to kill stray dogs. Where is that again?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Here's a dilemma for many of you.....this is from 2011 and may still be the law.

I'm certain other states have the same laws on the books.

*MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — * Dogs caught chasing deer may be killed by a person other than a peace or conservation officer, according to the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR).
Between Jan. 1 and July 14, a person other than a peace or conservation officer may kill a dog that has pursued, wounded or killed a big game animal. 





So, is this justifiable in the minds of the uber animal rights activists? I'd be curious to hear some opinions. My opinion would be....I wouldn't shoot the dog and rather let the dog run down and kill the innocent deer. It's one or the other..........


SuperG


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

---------" 
What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beasts also happens to man. All things are connected. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the children of the earth."-------------
_Chief Seattle - Suqwamish & Duwamish_


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## nomansland4404 (Jun 15, 2010)

I....I just....oh never mind


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Wetdog said:


> ---------"
> What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit, for whatever happens to the beasts also happens to man. All things are connected. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the children of the earth."-------------
> _Chief Seattle - Suqwamish & Duwamish_


Well said a great way to defeat an animal rights activist's argument.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Lobobear44 said:


> Well said a great way to defeat an animal rights activist's argument.


 
Why would you say that? Chief Seattle came from a society of primarily hunter/gatherers---they depended on hunting to live. But they also had a reverence for life and honored life. They took only what they needed, and prayed for the souls of what they had to take. They honored the land, the waters, the sky and the interconnected nature of all life. They protected all of God's creation and its ability to produce and sustain life.

The need to kill to survive does not equal the right to be uncaring and cruel. 

The need to use resources to live does not equal the right to destroy the earth and it's ability to sustain life out of greed and pillage. That does not give man the "right" to spill millions of barrels of oil into the ocean, and kill untold millions of creatures because they think they have a "need" for oil----no, it is because of greed for money, not need. We have other ways of powering our vehicles that do not involve killing of vast oceans full of life. We have ethanol, biodiesel, electricity and natural gas----we can power our vehicles without the need for petroleum at all if we would just do it.

Michael Vick makes hundreds of millions of $$$ throwing a football around. He was convicted and put into prison for maiming, abusing and killing hundreds of dogs. He was a primary motivator in a large group of humans who carried out these atrocities for no other reason than greed and entertainment. Michael Vick was making $20 million a year---did he have a "need"? No, he was callous and cruel only out of pure vanity and greed---he did it purely for entertainment and to be seen as a "macho" guy. Now he is out of prison, and he's back to playing football as if nothing had happened. The Philadelphia Eagles have spent at LEAST $10 million to promote and excuse his behavior----so that they can win football games and continue to make huge profits. Greed.

Strength without compassion and mercy is nothing more than oppression and abuse.

Knowledge without wisdom and kindness is manipulation and deceit. 

You are what you celebrate, and a society is what it makes its priorities and the ideals it sets. What are the priorities and ideals that we are setting as a society? 

This is what I believe we as a society should set as our ideals.

Raven comes to humans for help. [VIDEO]


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## Mocha (Dec 3, 2013)

I think there's a fine line between animal rights and animal welfare. Some animal rights activists are absolutely insane and scary for sure. Animal welfare laws pretty much protect the bare minimum. 

For one, I'm personally sick of activists attacks on breeders while they ignore the people who actually dumped their dog at the shelter to begin with. Just because I bought my purebred dogs from reputable breeders, does not mean my dogs killed two shelter dogs. 

Mean while the family who surrendered the pooch did it because they realized dogs bark, poop and pee


And who gets the bad rap? Reputable breeders -_- 


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Wetdog said:


> Why would you say that? Chief Seattle came from a society of primarily hunter/gatherers---they depended on hunting to live. But they also had a reverence for life and honored life. They took only what they needed, and prayed for the souls of what they had to take. They honored the land, the waters, the sky and the interconnected nature of all life. They protected all of God's creation and its ability to produce and sustain life.
> 
> The need to kill to survive does not equal the right to be uncaring and cruel.
> 
> ...


I'm a little bit experience with animal rights activist as I know a group personally. Plus my sister is one and have talked to some. So my sister and some are extremely insane as they want animals to no longer exists like dogs, cats, pigs, cows, giraffes, wolves and others so they won't have to suffer. They aren't specists so they don't care whether they no longer exist or not. One extreme view from AR groups.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Now this is something I actually agree with you on. I think a lot of AR people are well intentioned, misguided, bleeding hearts on a soap box. Others have an agenda. I don't like it. I care about animals greatly and feel they should be treated well but giving animals human-style-rights is just plain ridiculous. If anything, the penalty for animal cruelty currently just needs to be increased and people need greater knowledge/understanding of animal psychology and pet care.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> Now this is something I actually agree with you on. I think a lot of AR people are well intentioned, misguided, bleeding hearts on a soap box. Others have an agenda. I don't like it. I care about animals greatly and feel they should be treated well but giving animals human-style-rights is just plain ridiculous. If anything, the penalty for animal cruelty currently just needs to be increased and people need greater knowledge/understanding of animal psychology and pet care.


Well rights where animals get liberation everywhere! Not rights like humans but want it where animals existence are no longer ignored. Existence ignored is one of the most painful things in the world. So ignored they get killed without proper burials deaths are mocked too.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo how do you treat you doodle?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lobo how do you treat you doodle?


Treat him like a dog my sister treats him like a human.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> Treat him like a dog my sister treats him like a human.


But, you don't want to liberate him? What does liberate him mean? Does that mean, he moves out, provides for himself, and is responsible for his actions and inaction? 

I don't understand what you mean by liberating animals. 

If you mean that you want to help animals that are kept in cruel conditions (liberate them from the cruel situation) -- that would be animal welfare. If you want to stop animal and human interaction (liberate animals from being subjected to human domination, expectations, rules and regulations) that would be Animal Rights, and your pup would then need to go live feral if you ascribe to this thinking.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Treat him like a dog my sister treats him like a human.


How does that look? im very curious to know, i mean i can only imagine treating my dogs like my kids...


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> How does that look? im very curious to know, i mean i can only imagine treating my dogs like my kids...


My dog is my friend not property not something. Not a tool to use. Treat animals with kindness and respect 100% animals deserve it no matter what. Not ever show cold to animals, once in a while might be frustrayed but dont hit yell and be mean. Saw a Doberman at the local dog park the other day wasn't scared one bit and spent time with this guy. Only thing was careful no fear. Animals can sense this in ppl sometimes.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> But, you don't want to liberate him? What does liberate him mean? Does that mean, he moves out, provides for himself, and is responsible for his actions and inaction?
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by liberating animals.
> 
> If you mean that you want to help animals that are kept in cruel conditions (liberate them from the cruel situation) -- that would be animal welfare. If you want to stop animal and human interaction (liberate animals from being subjected to human domination, expectations, rules and regulations) that would be Animal Rights, and your pup would then need to go live feral if you ascribe to this thinking.


Liberation free from cruelty. Although dont want animals and people interaction to go away ever that would be too extreme. Just the interaction world wide needs to be treated more with no harm. We need to end animal cruelt like whales and dolphin and other animals killings for clothes and other stuff. Factory farms (they are frightening as **** when you drive by them. Had nightmares about them and had one of those days once in septwhere i was so sad went into tears. Rarely cry too.) hunting for sport, find alternative ways without the extreme to kill animals, puppy mills, bybs, more restrictions for breeding only responsible breeders should breed not clueless ppl. Look at china treating your mans best friends even German shepherds get killed for food, clothes, etc. watch some you will be terrified. somebody said on here without beasts, what is Man like without them. Would not live without animals. If dogs left the human interactation we would be very lonely and eventually forget what life is like with animals. Animals are amazing to interact with not just dogs and cats. Got to admit enjoyed animals companies before I learned about exploitation. Remember as a little kid interacting with goats, a cub bear, elephants, dolphins, camels, owls, etc. Even see enjoyment with rare cases even exotic animals and ppl.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> My dog is my friend not property not something. Not a tool to use. Treat animals with kindness and respect 100% animals deserve it no matter what. Not ever show cold to animals, once in a while might be frustrayed but dont hit yell and be mean. Saw a Doberman at the local dog park the other day wasn't scared one bit and spent time with this guy. Only thing was careful no fear. Animals can sense this in ppl sometimes.


I feel that I own my dogs, I love them, provide them with everything they need to be comfortable but at the end of the day they are dogs, 

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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo, I think you have some good thoughts but you need to dig deep and really educate yourself from all sides. As I said before youtube yourself some vice, learn about things, have an open mind. 

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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I feel that I own my dogs, I love them, provide them with everything they need to be comfortable but at the end of the day they are dogs,
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


1,000,000,000% right.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I feel that treating my dog like a cuddly baby teddy bear IS disrespectful to my dog. For the purpose of this post I will talk about my dog Nikon, he is 5 years old, very accomplished and has over 20 titles, his breed survey, and several health clearances above and beyond the normal hips/elbows. He is a very noble animal. He's not a cute, cuddly teddy bear that I walk around on a leash so people can ooo and aaaaah and love on him. He would protect me with his own life and has demonstrated his willingness and ability to do it. I treat him like a partner, not like a "furbaby". He has earned MY trust and respect just as I have earned his. He's also not some fragile glass ornament that needs constant protection and living in a bubble; he's a very strong, discerning, courageous animal fully capable of fending for himself if it came to it. I have certain expectations of him and will hold him to them and I'm sure he has the same of me.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lobo, I think you have some good thoughts but you need to dig deep and really educate yourself from all sides. As I said before youtube yourself some vice, learn about things, have an open mind.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your jumping to conclusions. I am being deep and educating myself. Dogs are right in front of us we can think for ourselves not be closed or mindless about anything. We have our own unique minds that dont have tobthink ordinary. You are not wrong I'm not wrong have my own philosophy. I won't be someone else because somebody tells me. My dog being disguised as property isn't him. Don't care what anybody says.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Saw a Doberman at the local dog park the other day wasn't scared one bit and spent time with this guy. Only thing was careful no fear. Animals can sense this in ppl sometimes.



I hope you didn't get in this dogs face like you did at the dog show.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

You can argue linguistics until you are blue in the face, but assuming you live in the U.S. your dog IS your property, assuming you own them and it isn't your parents or friends dog. It has nothing to do with spirituality or how you see your dog as a friend, it has nothing to do with kindness, respect or being a tool etc, it is a legal issue. I don't understand the need to put all these special definitions to the word, in the U.S. animals have owners making them property.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo,
I think everyone on this forum agrees that you should not be cruel to animals.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Okin said:


> You can argue linguistics until you are blue in the face, but assuming you live in the U.S. your dog IS your property, assuming you own them and it isn't your parents or friends dog. It has nothing to do with spirituality or how you see your dog as a friend, it has nothing to do with kindness, respect or being a tool etc, it is a legal issue. I don't understand the need to put all these special definitions to the word, in the U.S. animals have owners making them property.


Here's an example of ppl following society or does what society tells them. Society says dogs are property so people follow that like society said the world was flat once.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

stmcfred said:


> I hope you didn't get in this dogs face like you did at the dog show.


I didn't put my face near his when I got bitten or would've been in worse shape. Why do ppl jump to conclusions? Why not chase your dreams discover your true self?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Okin said:


> You can argue linguistics until you are blue in the face, but assuming you live in the U.S. your dog IS your property, assuming you own them and it isn't your parents or friends dog. It has nothing to do with spirituality or how you see your dog as a friend, it has nothing to do with kindness, respect or being a tool etc, it is a legal issue. I don't understand the need to put all these special definitions to the word, in the U.S. animals have owners making them property.


True I guess. Doesn't mean I see them property or a tool way.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

So can I just come and take your dog with me? Is it free to run away to the wild when if it feels like it? Do you decide when it goes inside, when it eats or where it goes?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo if your doodle takes a chunk out of someone do you think "this doodle does not belong to me, he is a free doodle and can do what he pleases" if going to fly? no. Why??? because the doodle is your doodle and you are responsible for him, he is part of your family. 

Im curious to know if you are against working dogs in general, because they dont have a choice. A search and rescue dog did not apply for the job and wait for the interview, it was chosen because it had what it takes to be a SAR dog.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Here's an example of ppl following society or does what society tells them. Society says dogs are property so people follow that like society said the world was flat once.


In my opinion I would prefer someone who is willing to take the responsibility for an animal to say they own it, will be responsible for it, will keep it safe, will feed it, will take medical care of it and will be responsible for what it does. You can have those outside "society" that say well the dog didn't catch anything he doesn't eat because he is just my friend, I don't own him and have the responsibility of ownership. Or he bit you why don't you settle with the dog in court because I don't own him.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

You know that people who really dont take ownership for there pets are the people that put dogs and cats in the position were they need to helped. A man who has a female cat and lets her run wild outside with no spay, no shots, no food and no shelter is not something to aspire too.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

HAHHAHAHAHAHAH, priceless.

I've heard it all now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear,

Some animals are domesticated because they are genetically equipped to be raised to accept people, to be fed by them, to be used by them. Dogs, cats, horses, animals kept to produce dairy, animals kept to produce wool, animals raised for meat, and various other species kept as pets. 

Wild animals, are not genetically equipped to be domesticated. 

Domesticated animals are kept by humans, usually in good conditions. At the end of the day, we want horses and dogs and livestock that can fulfill our expectations for them. A beef raised for meat is not generally mistreated. Mistreating the animal would make it nervous, or sickly and it would not grow the same meat with the proper fat content. 

Now there are some things I don't like. I don't like how calves are kept to make veal. So I will not buy veal. But most beef critters have a fine life, they live in green fields in herds, and are fed well, and managed well until the day they are slaughtered. And the slaughter is generally done in such a way that the critter never knew what hit it. 

I live in farm country. I live around Amish, and I live around other farmers. I pass fields regularly with beef cattle in them. The cattle are treated great. They are healthy, they are not restricted to tiny stalls. And the Amish get a pretty foul name in a lot of things. But I can see how my neighbors are. Their horses are not pets. They have trim light horses that pull their buggies. These are always fed and cared for properly -- not as pets, but this is how these people get to their meetings, and how they get to where they need to go. These animals are not abused. Abuse would make them less useful and nervous. Our neighbor is a young fellow with a bunch of kids, but he likes a fast horse, and does a little racing. But he treats his horses well. 

He has a couple of workhorses that he takes into his timber lot on the other side of me. The are large grey percherons or something like that. Draft horses for sure. They work. They are strong, have a lot of muscle, and at their proper weight. These have to be tended properly, or my neighbor would not be able to cut the trees he needs to heat his home. If he did not feed his horses or abused them, it would make his job a lot harder, and he would have a harder time providing for his family. 

And let me tell you about his dog. He has this dog, something like the size of Burmese Mountain Dog, but mostly white. It goes with him everywhere. It goes to the timber with him. Sometimes it follows the wagon, and sometimes it rides in the buggy. I haven't ever seen it in the house, but it follows the miniature horse that the children drive to the grandparents' farm a mile or so down the road. It has an awesome life. It is a farm dog. 

These people have a relationship with their critters. They provide for their critters well, because their critters will provide for them. 

The man also traps in his timber, and they hunt too. The meat goes on the table. It is necessary. My dad gives a couple of Amish fellows permission to hunt his land each year. 

There are people who exploit animals, and treat them cruelly, as in everything there are scoundrels. But not everyone is a scoundrel. You do not have to be Amish to understand that it makes sense to treat your horses and other lifestock properly. We have young farmers showing their livestock at the fair every year. These people raise beef critters, cows, goats, rabbits, chickens, sheep, hogs, and every other type of critter. And they show them. They learn everything they can about the critters, and how to raise them to produce the best results. They name the beef critters stuff like Rib Eye, and T-bone because they know that they are raising them to be sold for meat. But it doesn't mean that they are cruel to them at all.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> Lobobear,
> 
> Some animals are domesticated because they are genetically equipped to be raised to accept people, to be fed by them, to be used by them. Dogs, cats, horses, animals kept to produce dairy, animals kept to produce wool, animals raised for meat, and various other species kept as pets.
> 
> ...


Why do some people believe in humane deaths? The animals don't want to die. Killing isn't humane ever.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> Why do some people believe in humane deaths? The animals don't want to die. Killing isn't humane ever.


So what about your pet that is suffering from old age/illness and the only humane thing to do is to euthanize them? Do you NOT euthanize and let them suffer?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Lobobear44 said:


> Why do some people believe in humane deaths? The animals don't want to die. Killing isn't humane ever.


Euthanizing isn't cruel. If the dog was hit by a car, has multiple fractures with bone protruding through the skin and is bleeding heavily, without being able to breathe without whining I would not allow it to suffer a second more than it has to. What would be the alternative? Standing there and watching? Letting nature take its course which may take hours or even days?

Dogs understand pain just like any other animal and will adapt, but just because the dog is alive doesn't mean it's not suffering. My dog Alex is a good example, I got him at 8 years old from the local shelter and the previous owners had neglected him to the point his ears were fully calcified. My vet warned me from day 1 that if he got another infection there was no way to get the medication into the canal and systematic antibiotics were a long shot, for three years I cared for him. One day I got home and he came to greet me and his head was tilted sideways and he was stumbling while walking. I took him to the vet (a new one this time) and sure enough he had developed an ear infection in his lower canal. 

This new vet who had never seen Alex before in his life looked him over and told me flat out that she could recommend putting him on antibiotics which would cost me $600 but the chances of them doing anything was so slim she didn't believe they would work. I paid for the medication and took him home, but after two weeks there was absolutely no improvement. He still tilted his head 24/7 and stumbled in his walking, the final straw was when he starting crying in his sleep at night which he had never done. The next day I took him to the vets and had him put to sleep, the vet did the sedation first, and I held him in my arms the entire time and said my goodbyes. When the final injection was done he simply sighed and buried his head in the crook of my arm and passed peacefully.

I loved Alex, he was my shadow and companion for three years and to allow him to continue suffering in pain would have been downright cruel. 


You may think it's cruel, but wait until you are stuck in that situation where you DO have to make that decision and THEN come back here and say that it is cruel.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> So what about your pet that is suffering from old age/illness and the only humane thing to do is to euthanize them? Do you NOT euthanize and let them suffer?


Talking about cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, etc.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Talking about cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, etc.


So your a vegan? 

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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Talking about cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, etc.


You have your beliefs, we have ours. Don't push them on other people.

Your a vegan cool. I like meat, and I love trying new meats all the time.

End of story, quit trying to cause drama.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

Lobo, have you read Temple Grandin's _Animals in Translation_ or _Animals Make Us Human_? Very interesting looks at farming, among other things.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

nikon22shooter said:


> You have your beliefs, we have ours. Don't push them on other people.
> 
> Your a vegan cool. I like meat, and I love trying new meats all the time.
> 
> End of story, quit trying to cause drama.


I dont like it when ppl jump to conclusions. Not pushing beliefs on others not causing drama.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I dont like it when ppl jump to conclusions. Not pushing beliefs on others not causing drama.


You have a funny way of not "causing drama". This isn't the only thread either.

You don't like meat, thats fine. You think its wrong to kill animals, thats fine.

Accept the fact the others don't agree with you and move on rather than bickering like a teenage girl.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

nikon22shooter said:


> You have a funny way of not "causing drama". This isn't the only thread either.
> 
> You don't like meat, thats fine. You think its wrong to kill animals, thats fine.
> 
> Accept the fact the others don't agree with you and move on rather than bickering like a teenage girl.


Everyone thinks its wrong to kill dogs and cats and people. If someone said said its right to kill people, including children would you say thats fine? Even dogs and cats killings is right somebody who thinks that is right? Not comfortablr around them they need to be stopped before killings of people dogs and cats get killed more. Killing is way too extreme its and others maybe not agree like we are talking about what tv shows you like. Letting this slide is a weak side. Its common sense too. I am changing the world to give animals rights. Well get Oprah Winfrey to help and another guy that came to my school.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ok Lobo,

What is your plan?
How are you going to liberate animals? How are you going to make a difference? What do you differently in regards to your dog?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> Everyone thinks its wrong to kill dogs and cats and people. If someone said said its right to kill people, including children would you say thats fine? Even dogs and cats killings is right somebody who thinks that is right? Not comfortablr around them they need to be stopped before killings of people dogs and cats get killed more. Killing is way too extreme its and others maybe not agree like we are talking about what tv shows you like. Letting this slide is a weak side. Its common sense too. I am changing the world to give animals rights. Well get Oprah Winfrey to help and another guy that came to my school.


 What are you even talking about? Who said anything about killing dogs and cats and people?

Common sense? Oprah Winfrey? You're making less and less sense. Try to finish one thought before starting another.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You're wrong Lobobear. Some people feel very strongly about assisted suicide, and think it should be our right to choose this as an option. Which, of course this isn't the place to get into that discussion.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> You're wrong Lobobear. Some people feel very strongly about assisted suicide, and think it should be our right to choose this as an option. Which, of course this isn't the place to get into that discussion.


Someone wants to commit suicucide is it their right to choose death? No we can't let ppl get away killing themselves either. Killing and harming is always wrong to both people and animals alike. Killing is more extreme than anything.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I won't talk about it here on this forum, but you might want to actually investigate it before forming an opinion.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Ok Lobo,
> 
> What is your plan?
> How are you going to liberate animals? How are you going to make a difference? What do you differently in regards to your dog?


Going around for help asking advice. Protesting, going to SPCA, helping animals, talking out loud to others cant stay quiet, advocating, volunteering at another shelter locally, donating to wolves, signing petitions, etc. thinking about making my own petition has to be very planned out firdt though. Liberating animals and people is not an easy path. There is no short cut.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I won't talk about it here on this forum, but you might want to actually investigate it before forming an opinion.



Same goes for everyone else:


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Talking about cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, etc.


 
Ive butchered my own cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys. What is done on a small scale farm is totally different than what you see done to supermarket meat.

Other than the inconvenience of not getting a meal for 24 hrs before butcher not ONE of our animals suffered. Those butchered at home were shot with a .22. One shot, one kill. No suffering. Chickens were beheaded. Not in some haphazard idiot fashion. Again, one slice, one kill. 
You don't screw around when you're dealing with a 800 lb cow. The last thing you want is it panicking. Same with pigs although they only weigh about 300 at butcher.
Chickens don't really matter if they panic but Im not an *******. The goal is to eat not to entertain ourselves with something else's suffering. It's just time consuming to do it wrong so why would anyone bother?
Those sent to the butcher...same thing, although I was not there every time I never once saw anything on that mans property suffer.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Someone wants to commit suicucide is it their right to choose death? No we can't let ppl get away killing themselves either. Killing and harming is always wrong to both people and animals alike. Killing is more extreme than anything.


Tread lightly here lobo. My sister at 32 was riddled with breast, spine brain and lung cancer when she slipped into a coma and passed away. She chose to sign a DNR we did not fight it, it was her right to not want to live anymore with cancer.

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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Same goes for everyone else:


Ive butchered my own animals and I live in Alberta. I think Ive got the research covered when it comes to eating meat AND the oil fields.
Can you say the same? Where is your information from exactly??
Have you been to Fort Mac?
Have you been to a slaughterhouse? Or a small farm to see how it's done?


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Tread lightly here lobo. My sister at 32 was riddled with breast, spine brain and lung cancer when she slipped into a coma and passed away. She chose to sign a DNR we did not fight it, it was her right to not want to live anymore with cancer.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 

This always confused me. Suicide is a choice and what exactly does anyone who deems it wrong plan to do about those that make that CHOICE?
You cant send someone to jail if they're dead? Suicide laws are a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money. It's YOUR body. Do with it as you please!! You're not harming anyone but yourself.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Tread lightly here lobo. My sister at 32 was riddled with breast, spine brain and lung cancer when she slipped into a coma and passed away. She chose to sign a DNR we did not fight it, it was her right to not want to live anymore with cancer.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Here here. I am strongly for assistant deaths in certain situations. I watch both my grandmothers pray for death for months before it finally took them. They were sane, knew what they were asking and it was their right to do so, they were at peace and ready to go. 

Lobo,if you want to discuss that topic further, feel free to PM me.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

I actually meant to quote Lobo, MissLeslee! sorry!


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

I am in a profession where I have witnessed many deaths. I think it is so easy to underestimate the pain and suffering if you haven't seen it for yourself. And that includes children. I also don't think this is the place for a long debate on assisted suicide, but it is inhumane and cruel to insist that others go through a prolonged death. Each person needs to decide that on their own.

The same goes for pets. I have let a few of my pets suffer far too long before euthanizing. I would never want to rush it, but I will also try not to let them live in agony for months on end.

Also, to me personally a DNR is totally different than assisted suicide, although I am not opposed to either one.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

I lost the part where suicide, assisted or otherwise, was related to AR in any way shape or form.
Same with the comments about destroying the environment that Ive seen here..


Additionally...is this just not a restart of the already closed hunting thread from the chat room??


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo oprah Winfrey has nothing to do with anything. This is such a case of one size does not fit all lol, I watched a good doc on vice last night about one of the last men to live in the artic. Over 30 years of hunting and providing for himself and his family ( yes his wife lives out with him and they have raised kids) successfully! They are off the grid, they provide for themselves. Think about that maybe even watch it? See how some people respect the environment in such different ways! 


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

@lark i agree it is very different but still very much her choice, 

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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My bad, I brought it up. But it's aggravating to see someone paint everything with the same brush. To be so passionate is wonderful, but not if it blinds you.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> My bad, I brought it up. But it's aggravating to see someone paint everything with the same brush. To be so passionate is wonderful, but not if it blinds you.


 
It's not passionate...it's tunnel vision...it's fighting a fight with only half the information and blindly believing meme's on FB lol Ignorance is no better than arrogance.
Critical thinking is much needed here


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

meldy said:


> Ive butchered my own animals and I live in Alberta. I think Ive got the research covered when it comes to eating meat AND the oil fields.
> Can you say the same? Where is your information from exactly??
> Have you been to Fort Mac?
> Have you been to a slaughterhouse? Or a small farm to see how it's done?


I look at the world and think for myself. Not let people do thinking for me. We have brains and minds use them. I am not you you aren't someone else with at person's mind. I've seen slaughterhouses drove by them frightening as **** my family does not like them. Animals are considered my friends. I don't care what else some websites have to say. People in books don't like it either. Actually met someone who worked at factory farms as a butcher hated it then became an animal rights activists. A book known as things they carried back in Vietnam war draft was a butcher for pigs felt so horrible what he done. Believe it or not a lot of people have agreed with me.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I look at the world and think for myself. Not let people do thinking for me. We have brains and minds use them. I am not you you aren't someone else with at person's mind. I've seen slaughterhouses drove by them frightening as **** my family does not like them. Animals are considered my friends. I don't care what else some websites have to say. People in books don't like it either. Actually met someone who worked at factory farms as a butcher hated it then became an animal rights activists. A book known as things they carried back in Vietnam war draft was a butcher for pigs felt so horrible what he done. Believe it or not a lot of people have agreed with me.


Im never rude to you but what is this mumbo jumbo at the end? You cant skip thru everyone's valuable posts and land on the one you think you can argue with. Sorry hun, as the other poster said its wonderful you are passionate but level out a bit in your threads. 

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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lobo oprah Winfrey has nothing to do with anything. This is such a case of one size does not fit all lol, I watched a good doc on vice last night about one of the last men to live in the artic. Over 30 years of hunting and providing for himself and his family ( yes his wife lives out with him and they have raised kids) successfully! They are off the grid, they provide for themselves. Think about that maybe even watch it? See how some people respect the environment in such different ways!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She stopped eating cattle for animals and health reasons. Some companies lost a lot of money and did their best to sue Oprah they failed. Her opinions can be so powerful leads people to change their minds and impacts others. That was into got from Econ teacher. Anyways that's where got an idea where she can help animals get their rights. We need much help as we can. Doing this alone without teamwork is ignorance. Without teamwork heart would ache.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I look at the world and think for myself. Not let people do thinking for me. We have brains and minds use them. I am not you you aren't someone else with at person's mind. I've seen slaughterhouses drove by them frightening as **** my family does not like them. Animals are considered my friends. I don't care what else some websites have to say. People in books don't like it either. Actually met someone who worked at factory farms as a butcher hated it then became an animal rights activists. A book known as things they carried back in Vietnam war draft was a butcher for pigs felt so horrible what he done. Believe it or not a lot of people have agreed with me.


 
Im not questioning your right to an opinion. Im questioning your source of information and wondering if your opinion is based on personal experience or piggy-backed from the opinions of others. Or if you have sourced out a variety of material to base your opinion on or just picked the first sensationalized item and run with it.

I love animals. Ive had pets my whole life and will continue to have them until I die I hope.
But they're awfully good next to mashed potatoes too.
That is MY opinion based on person experience of putting the meat there myself. 
Do I support commercial farming? **** NO! I don't buy from supermarkets. I buy from local butchers now as I don't have my farm anymore. 
My eating meat doesn't translate into hating animals. I don't abuse them...I eat them.
It's not the same thing.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

Most of Lobo's threads eventually talk about the same stuff and usually end up closed. 




meldy said:


> I lost the part where suicide, assisted or otherwise, was related to AR in any way shape or form.
> Same with the comments about destroying the environment that Ive seen here..
> 
> 
> Additionally...is this just not a restart of the already closed hunting thread from the chat room??


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

As I said before lobo I think everyone agrees that animal cruelty should stop, but people eat meat oprah eats chicken and has spent over 200,000 on hermes purses let me tell ya that hermes is not using fake leather.
So how do you feel about that she wont eat it but she will spend over 25,000 on one purse supporting it, wearing it.

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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Not all animals raised for food are treated ethically, that's for sure. And animals don't owe us their lives. If we are going to take them for meat, I do believe we owe them the best life possible. 

I admire people who work hard to support the desire for animal products in a way that is kind to the animal, and I admire the people who, if they choose to buy animal products, buy them in a way that considers the lives of the animal. 

Saying that people in its world should have no choice in how they live their lives is silly, unrealistic, and shortsighted. 




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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

"Do as I say not as I do"

hahhahaha


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Agreed....we had a 14 year old jack Russell. He was going crazy and attacking everything. The vet said he was suffering from doggie dementia and he possibly would not always know who we were...after many months of watching him be so upset and attack all of us in the family...at the advice from our vet...made the choice to PTS he was so stressed, upset and unpredictable the last 6 months he was alive...he had to be fed from our hands, we had to constantly take him to water since he would forget where his room and bed were located. I can't imagine now long he could have lasted in his condition but how compassionate would it have been to make him suffer? 

I personally think some people take the AR thing a little to far. Animals are animals. We have loved and cared for all of our animals. We have fostered a bearded dragon that was going to be released to the wild...we knew it would never make it. Took both dragons and cared for them until we could find loving homes for them. Our snake was loved and cared for. And we have a cat 13 years old (rescued the stray mom, let her have her kittens, had them all spayed and neutered at a personal cost, found homes for and kept one kitten we grew especially close with)....we have a foster cat, that we will care for until he can find a wonderful home for him. The majority if people love and want their animals to be taken care of. Just because someone chooses to euthanize does not make them animal rights violators, they are usually a compassionate person who does not want the animals to suffer. 
We have saved every kind of animal and fostered many that would have not been taken care of otherwise but chose to put our dog to sleep when he was so obviously suffering. 

As far as hunters....if you use the meat and don't waste the kill....so be it. All of the hunters I know...are very cautious of the animals pain and they shoot to kill not torture. Many people like wild game...and have the right to hunt, and eat it in peace. I don't personally hunt but I will never judge or stop another's freedom to hunt. 

This in my opinion is where things go to far. If you want to be a vegetarian, okay. If you eat meat, okay. Everyone needs to back off and RESPECT that everyone is free to choose for themselves! Everyone needs to live their life, and mind their own business. I find it crazy and absurd that some people would want to influence others opinions, thoughts or rights. Leave peoples private lives alone and focus on the more important issues instead of harassing farmers trying to make a living and people who choose to hunt and eat meat. Take care of the pets that are in serious neglect and leave the rest to personal choice. Unless want someone being able to come in and harass you in different areas of your life....leave other people's personal choices alone. 

I want the freedom to decide my family's menu without harassment. I want to own a pet if I decide it is best for our family. I don't want special interest groups dictating my life through government regulations. 
I do think people who mistreat animals should be punished...and if so many special interest groups did not protect wrong doers from punishment it might be easier to punish the wrong doers....but sadly we have people who protect the criminals and abusers. Until we can start holding people accountable again...this will be a problem. 









Shade said:


> Euthanizing isn't cruel. If the dog was hit by a car, has multiple fractures with bone protruding through the skin and is bleeding heavily, without being able to breathe without whining I would not allow it to suffer a second more than it has to. What would be the alternative? Standing there and watching? Letting nature take its course which may take hours or even days?
> 
> Dogs understand pain just like any other animal and will adapt, but just because the dog is alive doesn't mean it's not suffering. My dog Alex is a good example, I got him at 8 years old from the local shelter and the previous owners had neglected him to the point his ears were fully calcified. My vet warned me from day 1 that if he got another infection there was no way to get the medication into the canal and systematic antibiotics were a long shot, for three years I cared for him. One day I got home and he came to greet me and his head was tilted sideways and he was stumbling while walking. I took him to the vet (a new one this time) and sure enough he had developed an ear infection in his lower canal.
> 
> ...






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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Sent before I was finished....if you want to support local ethical farmers do like we do...buy from local butchers and farms....




mcdanfam said:


> Agreed....we had a 14 year old jack Russell. He was going crazy and attacking everything. The vet said he was suffering from doggie dementia and he possibly would not always know who we were...after many months of watching him be so upset and attack all of us in the family...at the advice from our vet...made the choice to PTS he was so stressed, upset and unpredictable the last 6 months he was alive...he had to be fed from our hands, we had to constantly take him to water since he would forget where his room and bed were located. I can't imagine now long he could have lasted in his condition but how compassionate would it have been to make him suffer?
> 
> I personally think some people take the AR thing a little to far. Animals are animals. We have loved and cared for all of our animals. We have fostered a bearded dragon that was going to be released to the wild...we knew it would never make it. Took both dragons and cared for them until we could find loving homes for them. Our snake was loved and cared for. And we have a cat 13 years old (rescued the stray mom, let her have her kittens, had them all spayed and neutered at a personal cost, found homes for and kept one kitten we grew especially close with)....we have a foster cat, that we will care for until he can find a wonderful home for him. The majority if people love and want their animals to be taken care of. Just because someone chooses to euthanize does not make them animal rights violators, they are usually a compassionate person who does not want the animals to suffer.
> We have saved every kind of animal and fostered many that would have not been taken care of otherwise but chose to put our dog to sleep when he was so obviously suffering.
> ...






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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Most small butchers support small scale farming or are butchering their own livestock. Even small butchers in urban centers =) 
In case you aren't sure where to get ethically farmed meat.

And just so everyone here who hasn't been on a farm knows...99% of the small farms out there are ethical. Yes, their animals are treated like animals but these animals are the farmers livelihood. It makes NO sense to abuse them in any way shape or form. It just causes more bills and more issues. They don't farm on a scale where vet costs and such can be absorbed. Where the death of an animal through neglect is acceptable. They need these animals to stay healthy and live long enough to be butchered.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

meldy said:


> Most small butchers support small scale farming or are butchering their own livestock. Even small butchers in urban centers =)
> In case you aren't sure where to get ethically farmed meat.
> 
> And just so everyone here who hasn't been on a farm knows...99% of the small farms out there are ethical. Yes, their animals are treated like animals but these animals are the farmers livelihood. It makes NO sense to abuse them in any way shape or form. It just causes more bills and more issues. They don't farm on a scale where vet costs and such can be absorbed. Where the death of an animal through neglect is acceptable. They need these animals to stay healthy and live long enough to be butchered.



Agreed.....we visit local farms just so the kids can see farm life...as an educational tool....I have loved what I see. The animals are animals and well taken care of...and then used for the purpose they are there for. The farms we have been to feed top grains and hay...animals have tons of room to roam and the have clean water, shelter and room to be animals. 


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

I've only had big one animal that was hurt enough that it didn't live to butcher age...our pigs escaped once and one got trampled by my gigantic Holsteiner gelding and ended up with a broken back leg (and likely internal bleeding as well) Sonic was about half way to butcher age. My kids were devastated that he had been hurt and had to be shot (and buried) although they had no issue with butchering itself when we rounded up his littermates a few months later. It was a different deal when he was hurt. 

Now that I think about it Im not even sure why we buried him lol we coulda roasted him I suppose but it was sad he'd been hurt. Had a whole funeral and the whole nine yards  He even got a rock headstone that the kids painted. 

So much for unfeeling farmers! lmao

Went back and edited to add that I had only had 1 big animal die. We lost at least 1 chick every year from our meat birds (25) lost a bunch of turkeys the only year we tried to do them (turkeys are right up there with the dumbest animals Ive ever seen) we lost the occasional laying hen to coyotes and one year all our duck babies died but we never figured out why. Animals die on farms, not necessarily from abuse or neglect. Stuff happens that you can't control.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

mcdanfam said:


> Agreed.....we visit local farms just so the kids can see farm life...as an educational tool....I have loved what I see. The animals are animals and well taken care of...and then used for the purpose they are there for. The farms we have been to feed top grains and hay...animals have tons of room to roam and the have clean water, shelter and room to be animals.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have just come in from my morning chores and sat down to read this amusing thread. My chores at the moment involve mixing a concoction of vitamins and minerals to be fed out along with lovely hay and barley to our 2000 pregnant ewes all in their last gestation looking fat and healthy all primed to drop their lambies in less than a month. We aim for 130% lambs from these girls so they are very well cared for.....they have just had their needles and drench, been crutched and if you asked them are living the good life......

I agree there are some very questionable farming practices but ceasing to eat meat in order to address these is ridiculous. Education, tough penalties for those doing the wrong thing, and supporting farmers who are doing the right thing seems a much more balanced approach IMO


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Not too long ago several AR crazies in Germany broke the fence in the pig farm to 'free' the animals. As a reward they all got trampled to death by the freedom loving pigs...


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

alexg said:


> Not too long ago several AR crazies in Germany broke the fence in the pig farm to 'free' the animals. As a reward they all got trampled to death by the freedom loving pigs...


ROTFL 

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My brother's chickens all got slaughtered by a raccoon. It managed to get at them. Made a bloodbath of them. It did not kill them all to eat them all.

But that is ok. Because it is an animal killing other animals just for the sport of it. Whatever. 

An animal is blessed without an understanding about death. They do not want to die is incorrect. They do not understand the concept. When bitch loses a puppy, she counts them, she is concerned with each one. Sometimes bitches will stop tending one because it has issues. If a pup doesn't make it, we have to take the poor thing out of there while her attention is on another pup, because they will become worried and it can make her more stressed.

But they do not understand concepts like dying. They understand pain. They understand familiar people and critters. They understand a lot of things, but not death. So if you raise a critter up, give it a good life so that it is healthy and of the proper size and weight, and then you slaughter it, so that it never knew what hit it. I can't see how that is objectionable.

Lobobear, if you were infested with fleas or lice, or had worms in you, would you kill them? How would that be ok? I mean, they have life too. And if you kill them, then you are denying them their right to life. If you are for animal rights, then don't forget that you will make it so that people cannot kill roaches or rats, fleas and lice, either.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Yup animals really don't have concept of death. No screaming whimpering being next to dead bodies. Also pigs have intelligence of a 3-year-old. Also are social butterflies like dogs would make great companions too!

Bella (dog) mourns death of Beavis (beaver) - YouTube

http://youtu.be/(null)

Touching Footage Of Elephants "Saying Goodbye" To Dead Young - YouTube

Blackfish - YouTube

Chimps "Mourn" Nine-year-old's Death? - YouTube

Pig slaughter 10 - YouTube


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I was the one whos post got erased on page one but I swear I hit the nail on the head. Btw its past MY bedtime.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

I feel that all animals know when another animals die. If you watch wolf documentaries....a large percent oft be time, the animals they kill to eat had something wrong with them. 
I know animals feel pain, I have witnessed our dogs cry out when they step on something while running in the woods. I don't think animals sit and think about death. Yes, they have instincts....that push them to survival but I don't think they sit around thinking about death. Have you ever killed a spider? A venomous snake? Like I said before I think all animals grieve....a story when our family went to a island in South Carolina. We passed a dead cotton mouth in the road, another cotton mouth was laid across the back of the dead snake. Over 3 hours later, we passed by it again. The exact same position...lots of people believe snakes have no emotions...but it seems to me they may have the same grieving ability as other animals. My daughter had a snake for 8 years....the snake loved attention and came to the top of the tank to be held and soak in the sun outside. The snake never missed a meal, had a huge tank, lots of climbing displays and never was left to be completely alone. 
We mourned the snake as we would a dog! She has never been replaced because she was so unique and loved by us. Some would say that was cruel because she was in a tank, but our daughter learned so much and she cared for the snake like it was a child. She also got many other kids through out her school years to not be afraid of snakes and I know saved a few snake lives when parents would have killed them instead of hearing they were harmless and allowing them to remain alive. 
I did save the snake from the middle of the road on the island, my daughter was in tears scared it would meet the same death at the first snake. I have saved many snakes from roads throughout our community! Some laugh at us, some say they would kill a snake in their area, we don't judge them. Some don't take the time to learn about them and it's easier to kill all than learn....this is where understanding and respect for others comes into play. I am not an AR activist, but I have saved dangerous snakes from certain death....because I had the ability. I know 2 AR activist....they both said those snakes should have died because they are dangerous. How is it most AR people just want certain animals saved and think other animals are expendable? I don't think you can have it both ways...also...You have to consider people who wear leather shoes, even if it is just the soles...wallets, purses, car seats....all of these AR people wearing expensive shoes, carrying expensive bags, and driving around in cars with leather seats! All of these things use animals skins....they are not faux leather...they are real leather. So I am not sure who you are following in this movement...but most vegans claim to want animals safe but get in a car with lots of leather seats and details, wear shoes that are leather and carry designer purses that are made with a animal skins. Seriously....stop judging others for their choices, if everyone were to tend to their own business the world would be a much better place. Don't push your own ideas and opinions off on others. Don't harass others for personal choices. I save any animal I can, we rescue and foster...we own pets....we also wear shoes made of leather, have leather seats in our cars and have bags made of leather. If they are going to kill a cow to eat the meat, why waste any part of it??? I believe like most hunters, use everything that can be used, don't waste any part of the animal...when you waste it, that's when it becomes killing for fun....



Lobobear44 said:


> Yup animals really don't have concept of death. No screaming whimpering being next to dead bodies. Also pigs have intelligence of a 3-year-old. Also are social butterflies like dogs would make great companions too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...






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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've seen birds sitting beside the dead bodies of their partners (??) when they've been hit by cars, and I'm guessing that they're mourning their passing. I don't know this for a fact, but it always makes me sad. However, this isn't proving that they understand the _concept_ of death. I think it's almost the same as how we humans can be very reckless in our youth. We do things that, in our older years and thinking back, make us squirm, lol.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

There is no doubt in my mind they understand when something is no longer with them, elephants mourn as do dolphins. We mourn we are animals, now to be honest ive seen some pretty compelling videos about older animals that will leave home and packs when they are so close to death. 

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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I've read the whole thread and I guess I'm confused from the very beginning. I can't tell what the OP's stance is with regard to animal rights from even the title. "Animal Rights=arrogance and scary and extreme". Yet the comments, seem to indicate that he is for AR. It also makes it difficult to understand when complete sentences and thoughts aren't used. Is he ... for animal rights ... against? I can't tell from even the title of this thread.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm under the assumption that OP is struggling to find out where he fits into the puzzle that is the AR movement. He has the influence of his sister, who apparently is an AR extremist, and he questions her views - such as we shouldn't keep pets. But then he's lost and makes blanket statements without knowing all the facts - such as, hunting in particular is responsible for all extinction. And I think the thread had a different title at one point, if I remember correctly.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Blanket, there were two different threads. The hunting one (now closed) was in the chat room.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> Yup animals really don't have concept of death. No screaming whimpering being next to dead bodies. Also pigs have intelligence of a 3-year-old. Also are social butterflies like dogs would make great companions too!
> 
> Bella (dog) mourns death of Beavis (beaver) - YouTube
> 
> ...


I had a dog that I sold to a fellow, who had him for three years when he passed away after a lenthy illness. They tell me the dog sat by the window for 5 days, waiting for him to come back. Then he started acting like a puppy, tearing around the house, and going out of the yard. The dog was missing his owner, and I do not, will not argue that dogs grieve in a sense, they realize that circumstances changed, they miss a person or critter who is now dead or gone. 

But I do not believe that understand what death is. Every creature with a nervous system will avoid pain. Certainly. That does not mean that they know that if they do not avoid the pain, they will die. They avoid negative stimuli because they can feel pain. 

But animals do not sit around thinking about how they do not want to die. Sorry. Death is an abstract concept. Their instincts and their memory of past experience may cause them to avoid things like walking onto thin ice and thus drowning in a river. Do they think, "if I walk on the river there, the ice may break, and then I will fall through, and then I will get sucked under the ice by the current, and then I will die?" I don't think so. I think they think, "DANGER!!!!" This doesn't mean they don't want to die, it probably just means they want to avoid pain/injury -- most paths to death involve pain/injury, probably for a good reason.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I'm under the assumption that OP is struggling to find out where he fits into the puzzle that is the AR movement. He has the influence of his sister, who apparently is an AR extremist, and he questions her views - such as we shouldn't keep pets. But then he's lost and makes blanket statements without knowing all the facts - such as, hunting in particular is responsible for all extinction. And I think the thread had a different title at one point, if I remember correctly.


I see how the world treat animals. It's messed up, look at bullfighting, hunting so many excuses killing animals, destroying environments, factory farms/slaughterhouses= traumatizing, all killings towards animals needlessly is traumatizing, you know people are licensed somewhere in Asia killing dogs? Also people pelt dogs over there too? Even saw a German shepherd getting skinned alive just horrible! Wanted to beat up that person that very second. Eat dogs see them like dirt and tools compare to us. It's horrible how they treat marine life too. 

Wouldn't hesitate for a second if there are animals in trouble and risk my life to save them, including people unless they don't treat animals nicely. Heard about a guy who mutilated a cat a few towns away from mine. Every single death of animals millions out their dying stastically more than people it's no big deal. They don't get funerals ever, or memorial services except for dogs. Urging wishes to beat mindless animal abusers up imagine it a lot. These people are not real people. If I ever come across I will without hesitation. Harming animals and amazing people is traumitizing affects anybody physologically. 

Look at my mirrors to see that how pathetic am I? Am I all just words not action? Who am I? That's what we are hear to find out aren't we? I know who I am some awesome animal guy! Not going to martial arts consistently enough to get physically stronger. Not a consistent person at all. Need to become a consistent person no matter what. Not being consistent lead to many regrets to this day. Pitiful and pathetic, cowardness. Can't let society control I! Drama helps a lot though becoming more consistent, even harsh critizicing sounding words can help too. I am following my heart and see all what's happening all through webs through hidden cameras, reading info, even some books, even know someone which I had no idea until later worked in a slaughterhouse. He talked to my sister's animal rights activists which is less extreme than others. Although still extreme to certain degrees with pressuring talk about keeping pets and breeders all of that nonsense and animal and people interactions severed. This post-slaughterhouse guy said, "Yeah these animals really are suffering." Next time I see him can talk to him about it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I have edited this thread and am restoring it as there were people who were having good conversation and kudos to you for doing that. 

Posts that break board rules will be deleted and warnings may be issued, just as in any other thread: German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : General Behavior for review. 

Thank you. 
Jean 
Admin


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobo you are very generalized. You cannot paint everyone with the same brush and any change starts with you. 
Be aware of where you food comes from. Cosmetics, shampoos, clothes. Where you have to drive and why? Can you get there another way?
I make conscious choices every day as I'm a form believer in karma. I still eat meat and will continue to do so. I hope to get a white tail draw this year. My dog will eat raw and my cat just started on a raw diet. I know where my meat comes from to the best of my ability and I make as many ethical choices as I can. 
Even living here in Alberta. 


Your playing small does not serve the world. Who are you not to be great?~Nelson Mandela


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

meldy said:


> Lobo you are very generalized. You cannot paint everyone with the same brush and any change starts with you.
> Be aware of where you food comes from. Cosmetics, shampoos, clothes. Where you have to drive and why? Can you get there another way?
> I make conscious choices every day as I'm a form believer in karma. I still eat meat and will continue to do so. I hope to get a white tail draw this year. My dog will eat raw and my cat just started on a raw diet. I know where my meat comes from to the best of my ability and I make as many ethical choices as I can.
> Even living here in Alberta.
> ...


I check what it's made out of where they come from. Although one thing black and white is some AR ppl don't say much when not all are like that.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

LOBO, your inexperience in life comes through in almost every post. hunting, is a needed wildlife management tool. i would rather see a hunter shoot and eat a deer than have a family member die in an auto accident after hitting a deer. same goes for the over population of bear here in jersey. other countries consider dogs food and i find it ignorant to impose your values on other cultures. i suggest you try studying some biology, history and zoology. it will enlighten you and enable you to form educated opinions.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

-------" i would rather see a hunter shoot and eat a deer than have a family member die in an auto accident after hitting a deer."------

The causality of dying in a car wreck after hitting a deer is driving a car, along with other factors, such as inattention, driving too fast for conditions, not wearing a seat belt, poor safety design, poor road design, along with many others but that is just to give an idea.

The only way that hunting deer would eliminate deer as a traffic hazard is if deer were hunted to extinction. And that is obviously not a viable option.

Hunting deer is not justifiable as a means of reducing wrecks. Using this logic, it makes more sense to say that outlawing the hunting of wolves and other large predators is necessary to reduce traffic fatalities because they kill deer.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Deer overpopulation is a problem, in many regards.

Deer Overpopulation a Threat to Forest Growth, Researchers Say : Animals : Nature World News


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Wetdog said:


> ... The only way that hunting deer would eliminate deer as a traffic hazard is if deer were hunted to extinction ...


not a bad idea


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Well alexg, I suppose if you would go live on the 14th floor of a high rise apartment building, you won't have to have much contact with deer.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

While I do think that many animals are pests and/or possibly dangerous, I don't feel like we have the right to hunt any of them to extinction. 

I'm not going to try and convince anybody here to agree with my opinions, but I do feel that there are a few posters who are forming opinions without having all the facts. Whether they decide to learn more and see if they need to revise their thoughts and feelings is up to them, but if they want to remain ignorant, it's not my problem unless they are trying to encroach on my rights. Anybody's right to swing their fist ends just before it reaches me.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Wetdog said:


> Well alexg, I suppose if you would go live on the 14th floor of a high rise apartment building, you won't have to have much contact with deer.


I drive and ride a motorcycle, so these forest rats get in the way ...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Humans meddling with the balances of nature has it's consequences......most always in a negative result.....yet humans are compelled to modify their surroundings so we simply have to accept the results of our actions.....whether we like it or not.

SuperG


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Humans are not the only creatures that modify their surroundings and affect the environment. Beaver dams can wreak havoc on existing ecosystems. Lemmings regularly overpopulate, eat themselves out of house and home, and starve to death. Same with deer. A biblical swarm of locusts can destroy anything green for miles, causing other wildlife to starve. I could go on and on, but my point is, humans are animals too. We like to think we are superior, but we are no better, no worse. We like to look out for our own best interests--all animals do that. If we didn't look out for ourselves, no one else would. We exploit our environment for our own selfish interests, but so do other animals. 

We're just animals too, trying to make a living... no one gets mad at the male lion who takes over an existing pride and kills all the cubs, even though it seems horrific. We humans hold ourselves to a different standard because we are more "evolved", but we ourselves are barely out of the tree.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

alexg said:


> I drive and ride a motorcycle, so these forest rats get in the way ...


Deer hits on bikes are evil. I had a close call a few weeks back with a herd of the things in Florida. I was on an enduro loop, clipping along at a zesty 80 or so and a pack went skipping across the road in front of me. 

KTM lost a top-flight rider not too long ago to animal strike during the Baja 1000, guy was on course for a win, hit an (unknown) animal and Caselli died at the scene.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobo, animals don't give each other memorial services or funerals. That is a HUMAN invention that does NOTHING for the dead person. It is for the survivors, a chance for them to remember and honor an individual's life, and grieve for the person.

People grieve for their pets. 

Pets grieve when they lose a person, whether the person dies, or just walks out on the pet's life, there is often some grieving depending on the type of pet.

I just finished off the last of the chicken paprikash I made last Sunday for my sister's family. I made two dinners, one with a chuck roast -- a tiny fraction of a beef critter, and one from a single chicken. Out of that I fed my sister's family of 5 for two nights, and my parent's and I for two nights. (I also ate with my sister's family on one of their nights.) 

Because we used ANIMAL products, we managed to provide the proper amount of calories, protein, and fat using far less vegetable matter. Which in fact means we killed FEWER animals, by eating meat. 

If the entire United States of America, would turn into vegans, we would not be able to produce the sustenance for all the people, and far more land would be removed from parks and wildlife to produce all the vegetable matter we would need to survive. 

It is NOT all black and white.

If you do not kill the deer, hunt the deer, they over-populate, like in my sister's city neighborhood. Where 17 or 20 deer will be fighting over the tree branches on her little postage stamp of a lawn. They're starving. Why are they starving? Because no one can hunt them there. There are far too many of them, and they have eaten all there is to eat.

If I had to choose a bullet through the heart or brain, or starving to death, I would prefer the bullet. Not hunting the deer and keeping the numbers in check is cruelty to animals. 

In my neighborhood there are not starving herds of deer. I see them here and there, but the numbers are at an acceptable level because guys go out and shoot them to feed their families. Trust me that these people are not leaving these deer to rot in the woods. It isn't happening. Many starving Ohioans scoop of the road-kill dear too. But hunted deer are cooked and eaten regularly in my neck of the woods. It is a good thing.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> If the entire United States of America, would turn into vegans, we would not be able to produce the sustenance for all the people, and far more land would be removed from parks and wildlife to produce all the vegetable matter we would need to survive.


Ye might be a bit slimmer. lol

Nah really do, a cow uses a lot of land to feed him every year. If you used that land to produce veg it would be a lot of veg. It is not that hard to sustain ones self on veg and non meat products these days with the amount of wealth around. You go to a poorer country and they need meat.

To me it's like meat is nice and I like it. I get free range sheep really cheap and pretty much only eat that. 

Wouldn't really be into killing it myself but do like munching on it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, deer hunting is considered the #2 reducer of deer/vehicle collisions

http://wildlifecontrol.info/pubs/Documents/Deer/Deer-Vehicle_factsheet1.pdf

you have to go all the way to page 5


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One would think that there wasn't millions of years of animals becoming extinct before humans graced the scene. One might think that some strange foreknowledge of coming humans, cause all the dinosaurs to die out. 

As for eating dogs, that's cultural. I like to eat cows, pigs, and chickens. Some cultures may find that repulsive. It really isn't any of my business if other cultures eat things that we keep as pets.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> One would think that there wasn't millions of years of animals becoming extinct before humans graced the scene. One might think that some strange foreknowledge of coming humans, cause all the dinosaurs to die out.
> 
> As for eating dogs, that's cultural. I like to eat cows, pigs, and chickens. Some cultures may find that repulsive. It really isn't any of my business if other cultures eat things that we keep as pets.


There is a lot of cognitive distances all over this thread.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Nah really do, a cow uses a lot of land to feed him every year. If you used that land to produce veg it would be a lot of veg. It is not that hard to sustain ones self on veg and non meat products these days with the amount of wealth around. You go to a poorer country and they need it.


See it is not that simple. Speaking about Australia here as I have never been to the U.S........to grow vegetables requires a certain climate, rainfall and soil type......over here growing vegetables where cattle are predominately run would not be possible and I am thinking that in many parts of the U.S this would also be the case.......trying to picture veggies growing in the mountainous regions of cattle country ......it just wouldn't be possible......so saying we could just grow veggies where the cattle are is......well......very simplistic


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> actually, deer hunting is considered the #2 reducer of deer/vehicle collisions
> 
> http://wildlifecontrol.info/pubs/Documents/Deer/Deer-Vehicle_factsheet1.pdf
> 
> you have to go all the way to page 5


Very, very true. They do this in SW PA. The year before I left, a Fish and Wildlife Officer came to my door one day and informed me they were doing a night hunt and to stay indoors with my animals from 11pm until 5am. It was to help thin out a herd as it wasn't uncommon to see 10-20 deer milling on this road that was notorious for deer strikes. I know they would raise the tag limits some years if there was a population explosion.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Sparra ..


> to grow vegetables requires a certain climate, rainfall and soil type......over here growing vegetables where cattle are predominately run would not be possible and I am thinking that in many parts of the U.S this would also be the case.......trying to picture veggies growing in the mountainous regions of cattle country


Cow manure is the best addition to any garden and if there are cows then they have to feed on something so veg will also grow. It is very easy to change a soil type over a couple of years with the right materials. My point was a cow eats so much acreage per year that a lot of veg can be grown on less acreage. Even is Australia. Some crops like arid regions some like loads of water etc.

A balance should be struck between fruit and veg production and cattle and live stock grazing. And people should diversify away from monocultures to get the best out of the land they have. 

Hope that's not to idealistic.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a question Lobobear, and honestly am asking this out of curiosity.

Tell me, write down, exactly everything you "ate" yesterday. Everything. 

And I rather agree with Freestep, your postings can be very confusing as you are all over the place, honestly, reread some of them outloud and maybe you understand them, but alot of people posting here don't. Some make sense, others make no sense at all. Just a friendly tip


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

In my opinion, if you feel strongly about something....you don't let jail hold you back. The guy that created "The Cove" risk death on a daily basis to bring the information to light. The little girl who was shot by the Taliban for going to school. Missionaries going into country's they know could be dangerous but risk it to help others, doctors without borders. The soldiers that leave their families and homes, the safety of America to risk their lives to protect our freedoms in this country.....all of them....know what they want, are following their dreams and don't let the fear of jail or death stop them....these are a very few examples of courage. 
Someone who turkey believes what they are saying do not let fears stop them. 
I don't know how old you are, I don't know what influences you have in your life. But it sounds like you are lost, like you are not sure what to believe in. I was there....around 14-15 years old. I had to find my passion, my path. I moved out of a very messed up home. Decided my path, and took it. I had many many many struggles along the way, huge setbacks. But I never gave up. Worked 3 jobs and paid for all of my own supply's for homeschool so I could get a diploma, something few in my family had done. I did not listen to the family members that suggested I take their path, or the ones that said what I was doing was stupid or impossible. Everything I was going went against the majority in my family were doing. I was told I was snotty, stuck up, a "b" word....that I thought I was better than everyone else. Well....all of the opinions did nothing but prove I wanted to be away from that mentality. That I had to get away from the mind set that everyone had to share the Same opinions or never be around each other. See...my family believed if you were different, if you did not share the same ideas or opinions...you were enemies....that you could not be friends or family. I believed that there had to be people who could think differently, but be family and friends. I knew what I would be loosing if I made the right hanged and used logic instead of emotion to think and live by. Sadly all of my fears came true, when I voiced who I was, what I stood for and when I started living my life the way I decided was my path. At 15...I was completely alone. Living the life of a very young conservative. My very liberal family abandoned me, because I did not share their life views. I wanted better and was considered and outsider...a snobby meany....yet they were the ones that abandoned me....when I did see a family member I was made fun of, when they saw my diploma, I was harassed, when they saw me make changes and succeed they teased harder, scapegoated and were relentless in their bombarding verbal and emotional attacks. Me staying clear of drugs, alcohol, cigarettes and other addictive habits...was not rewarded or cheered. It was teased and used as a weapon to tease and verbally attack me. Never were they supportive, never were they my cheer leaders. I lived alone, cheered for myself and celebrated my successes alone. Today at 35 years old...4 of my cousins who finally woke up, visit with me...4 out 57 cousins...the point of the story...to help you understand...that I know what lost sounds like, looking for purpose sounds like, and knowing the desire to create a path for life sounds like. In my opinion, it sounds like you are where I was at 15 years old. 
I can promise...you can follow someone's path, you can't emulate another's life. You have to find your own path if you want to feel fulfilled and accomplished. You can admire and look up to others but you can never be fulfilled following someone else's path. I am not a famous AR activist, not a well known member of the community. But what I am and have done is mine and mine alone. Not only did I become a visual merchandiser at 16 making $20 and hour, but I was also the manger of a clothing store at the age of 18...my work ethic and drive carried me farther than anyone else in my family had ever gotten. I did marry at 20 and had my first daughter at 20....but I did things my way...some say I am to strict, some say to conservative in raising my girls, I was criticized for taking the path of homemaker and giving up the career path. 16 years later...my path has me still married to with two beautiful, amazing daughters who are strong, straight forward, honest, well mannered, loving, caring, responsible, honor students, who volunteer their weekends to help in the community while being very conservative in moral, and political areas. Others did not like my path, others criticized my path, I was made fun of and bullied by not only friends but family. I never allowed it to change my path! Others may have influenced me...but I lived for me and my family. 
Stop watching siblings, parents, family and friends....start thinking about where you want to be in 5 or 10 years and make choices that get you to that place. And remember mistakes now or in the near future can prevent you from achieving your goals...so be well aware of mistakes that can keep you from the life you want. Success is not measured in money, houses, cars or material items....In my opinion...it is waking up knowing that I am exactly where I belong that makes me feel successful. Knowing that I made my way against everything people threw at me..knowing I gave my kids a completely different life and lifestyle...
My daughter loves every animal...would own a zoo in our home if she was allowed....but like I have told her...you are never going t rid the world of evil. There will always be evil in the world you can't change that, but you can do things in your life that help, even if it is a small difference it is still a difference. We serve food at the men's shelter on Sundays, we help clean the parks and community-even when we take our evening walks, we volunteer at the pound and humane society, we take Millie our dog to do therapy work at hospital and schools, we donate to things that mean something to us...we also pay close attention to politics because that makes the biggest difference in our country and around the world. We don't fall for the emotional games they play in speeches and campaigns, we look at what they vote for and what their policies do to people we care about....you don't have to be labeled as something to make a difference....you don't have to be shoving your ideas and opinions off on others to be successful....just work to make small changes and those small changes you make will bring much joy and fulfillment to your personal life. Good luck finding your path....one bit of advice....don't try to use emotions with a group that uses logic...logic outweighs emotion every time....except with emotional people. Don't attack, that turns people off and makes the attacker look that much more emotional and oblivious. Understand that many people enjoy a balanced diet, some don't have the ability to have a store two mins always and can't grow gardens. Some just love wild game, does not have the chemicals and other government injected stuff and is much healthier. That is one reason we shop at the local farms, farmer markets and dairy. Be happy you live in a country you have the FREEDOM to find your own path, to voice your opinions on a forum and not be jailed or put to death. Be happy you have the choice to eat whatever diet you choose. Happy you have the right to own a pet. Be happy you have those freedoms and choices....and ALLOW other the same freedoms without judgement or condemnation from people who don't believe exactly as you think they should. That is the great thing about freedom, choice...choice that someone else may not make...choice that others are not allowed. If you don't want others making choices for you....don't try to push your ideas and opinions on others. When you wake up and see you can respect others and still be happy with your path, that is when you have learned respect for others and when you will be the happiest. Don't worry about others actions. Choose your path, make good choices to get where you want to be, don't judge others and you will be happy....I know from learning the same lessons. 
Good luck in your journey.....

** quote removed since it has been deleted**

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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

From what I've heard from a friend who's working in Shanghai, you can't find dog on the menu unless you go to rural villages. He told me that this is because of political pressure (and also tourism). You _can_ change things, Lobobear, but you need to be careful if you want to make a great change - people need to be able to take you seriously because if they think you're a nutcase then they'll be more comfortable just ignoring you, which will actually harm your cause.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> From what I've heard from a friend who's working in Shanghai, you can't find dog on the menu unless you go to rural villages. He told me that this is because of political pressure (and also tourism). You _can_ change things, Lobobear, but you need to be careful if you want to make a great change - people need to be able to take you seriously because if they think you're a nutcase then they'll be more comfortable just ignoring you, which will actually harm your cause.


I agree that's why people need to think more than twice and be super careful before doing this kind of thing. Is a lot harder than u imagine.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Lobobear44 said:


> Someone wants to commit suicucide is it their right to choose death? No we can't let ppl get away killing themselves either. Killing and harming is always wrong to both people and animals alike. Killing is more extreme than anything.


This statement IMO is so offensive. Do you know the amount of pain and suffering it would take for your brain to just give up and think death would be a better option? A brain that has evolved over millions of years with one main goal which is to survive at all costs?! Not saying I agree or disagree with that topic, just thinking of how severe a trauma must be to elicit such a type of response that goes against every instinct we have.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lobo, are you going to answer my last question?



> I have a question Lobobear, and honestly am asking this out of curiosity.
> 
> Tell me, write down, exactly everything you "ate" yesterday. Everything.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

And since we are on this topic, does anyone have advice how to efficiently eliminate the chipmunks?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Sparra ..
> 
> Cow manure is the best addition to any garden and if there are cows then they have to feed on something so veg will also grow. It is very easy to change a soil type over a couple of years with the right materials. My point was a cow eats so much acreage per year that a lot of veg can be grown on less acreage. Even is Australia. Some crops like arid regions some like loads of water etc.
> 
> ...


Topography of the land is a major consideration also......I understand what you are saying but growing veggies is just not possible in MANY regions.

It is not idealistic at all what you are saying regarding balance and it is already happening in most parts of the world. Meat is a cheap protein in MANY countries ......it is a necessity......I do not believe it is possible to provide the world with enough protein from other sources if meat was off the menu.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

GSDluver4lyfe said:


> This statement IMO is so offensive. Do you know the amount of pain and suffering it would take for your brain to just give up and think death would be a better option? A brain that has evolved over millions of years with one main goal which is to survive at all costs?! Not saying I agree or disagree with that topic, just thinking of how severe a trauma must be to elicit such a type of response that goes against every instinct we have.


I wouldn't ever let any of my friends go along to suicide. I will never let them die on amy circumstances. It wouldn't and doesn't do anybody any good. It slices hearts to pieces and people come across regret too. If I found out my friends were in trouble I go rescue them.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Lobo, are you going to answer my last question?


I will busy and thinking at the moment.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Lobobear44 said:


> I wouldn't ever let any of my friends go along to suicide. I will never let them die on amy circumstances. It wouldn't and doesn't do anybody any good. It slices hearts to pieces and people come across regret too. If I found out my friends were in trouble I go rescue them.


Sometimes there is nothing you can do. Yes, it leaves a wake of devastation but its not so cut and dry. Luckily, it sounds as though you've never experienced this and I pray you never do. Also by saying your above post, you are putting an incredible amount of responsibility to those who have lost loved ones to suicide basically saying its their fault, they should have stopped it. Adding to the regret, shame and guilt of a helpless situation.

And with that I am done as I dont feel this is the proper place for this discussion. I just had to say something, and apologize to those who feel this is a touchy subject, as my intention was not to offend.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

alexg said:


> And since we are on this topic, does anyone have advice how to efficiently eliminate the chipmunks?



Get a German Shepherd....they took care of the rabbit plague I had here years ago...

SuperG


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Personally I think the whole "hunting to prevent overpopulation" thing is bs. The only reason this is "needed" is because we've deforested the land and driven out/hunted the deers' natural predators, so it's very much a man-made problem and we've devised a very typical man-made solution in my opinion. 

And also, it takes way more water and land to raise beef than it does to just raise the crops, rather than raising the crops to feed the animal (which turns into meat inefficiently, with loads of waste). So yes it's cheaper, more efficient, and far less polluting to raise crops than meat. And it's completely possible to get the necessary nutrients from a vegan diet; plenty of people who aren't eating the right balance, meat or no meat! I probably eat too many carbs personally lmao. 

With all that being said though, most important to me is that people respect other people's choices. I think everyone should be educated about the impact of their choices, and should feel responsible for their own impact on the world, but in the end, not my biz to tell anyone what to do. 




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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Eiros said:


> Personally I think the whole "hunting to prevent overpopulation" thing is bs. The only reason this is "needed" is because we've deforested the land and driven out/hunted the deers' natural predators, so it's very much a man-made problem and we've devised a very typical man-made solution in my opinion.
> 
> And also, it takes way more water and land to raise beef than it does to just raise the crops, rather than raising the crops to feed the animal (which turns into meat inefficiently, with loads of waste). So yes it's cheaper, more efficient, and far less polluting to raise crops than meat. And it's completely possible to get the necessary nutrients from a vegan diet; plenty of people who aren't eating the right balance, meat or no meat! I probably eat too many carbs personally lmao.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said what I'm telling everyone.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> I agree with everything you said what I'm telling everyone.



That doesn't seem true. You're telling people they can't/shouldn't do this and that. Saying you'd "never allow" someone to do this or that. Honestly, what other people do is not your business, nor do you have any rights over them. 

Respecting others creates respect. You sound like a passionate kid, and that's awesome! your interests are better served by setting an example for compassion, tolerance, and respect for everyone. Do your research and back up your opinions with facts, and deliver them eloquently. Even if people don't agree, they will respect that. And you could teach them something too  


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> I agree with everything you said what I'm telling everyone.


No, this isn't true. You want to give animals rights to the extent that people will not be able to do what they want: eat meat, wear leather, etc. 

I don't know, Eiros. I cannot eat an entire cow. Even if I bought a cow and froze it, it would take over a year to eat all that meat. The amount and variety of veggies that would be required to replace the meat in the diet of me and whoever else feeds off that cow would take quite a bit of grazing land. 

MadLab, you would think it would slim you down, to drop the meat, but I did it for lent once, and I lost no weight whatsoever. I substitued mushrooms in place of meat, and while I did not gain weight, I certainly did not lose weight. I didn't save money either. 

I like meat. I don't want to make it a law that everyone eat meat. I do not want to guilt people into eating meat. But if someone wants to stand in the way of my being able to eat meat, we have issues.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Eiros said:


> That doesn't seem true. You're telling people they can't/shouldn't do this and that. Saying you'd "never allow" someone to do this or that. Honestly, what other people do is not your business, nor do you have any rights over them.
> 
> Respecting others creates respect. You sound like a passionate kid, and that's awesome! your interests are better served by setting an example for compassion, tolerance, and respect for everyone. Do your research and back up your opinions with facts, and deliver them eloquently. Even if people don't agree, they will respect that. And you could teach them something too
> 
> ...


Only what ppl needs to be convinced is not killing anyone. Killing is way too extreme.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> No, this isn't true. You want to give animals rights to the extent that people will not be able to do what they want: eat meat, wear leather, etc.
> 
> I don't know, Eiros. I cannot eat an entire cow. Even if I bought a cow and froze it, it would take over a year to eat all that meat. The amount and variety of veggies that would be required to replace the meat in the diet of me and whoever else feeds off that cow would take quite a bit of grazing land.
> 
> ...


See all about the people not animals. Think of both animals and people. Is that not clear to you?


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

It takes 25-50 lbs of grain to make a pound of beef, it takes 120 gallons of water for a pound of beef. I don't know exactly how many humans that could feed, but it's sure a heck of a lot more than two 8oz steaks. Obviously different crops take different amounts of water, but none require an amount even close to beef, with such little output, comparatively. It will never be more efficient and ecologically beneficial to raise cattle. I know that the meat industry isn't going anywhere though, so I try and encourage and support local farms rather than commercial meat and dairy production. A lot of the people who've spoken up about their own farming practices on this thread I would buy products from haha.   


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to see Lobo, that you pick and choose who or what to answer based on what YOU like to hear or argue with.

I don't see an answer yet to my question, you weren't to busy to answer or respond to others posts, to type out what one 'ate' during one day would take a couple seconds, less than the responses you've made to others.

So that kinda tells me, you may be looking at labels to make sure nothing you"ate" had animal in it...Guess I got my answer


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Agreed.....don't tell others what to do....state facts, and your opinion but don't push it off on others. 
Respecting others choices is what this world needs more of. 



Eiros said:


> That doesn't seem true. You're telling people they can't/shouldn't do this and that. Saying you'd "never allow" someone to do this or that. Honestly, what other people do is not your business, nor do you have any rights over them.
> 
> Respecting others creates respect. You sound like a passionate kid, and that's awesome! your interests are better served by setting an example for compassion, tolerance, and respect for everyone. Do your research and back up your opinions with facts, and deliver them eloquently. Even if people don't agree, they will respect that. And you could teach them something too
> 
> ...






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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I tend to see Lobo, that you pick and choose who or what to answer based on what YOU like to hear or argue with.
> 
> I don't see an answer yet to my question, you weren't to busy to answer or respond to others posts, to type out what one 'ate' during one day would take a couple seconds, less than the responses you've made to others.
> 
> So that kinda tells me, you may be looking at labels to make sure nothing you"ate" had animal in it...Guess I got my answer


No ate no animals. Toast, vegan burrito & vegan quesidalla, and tacos.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Wetdog said:


> -------" i would rather see a hunter shoot and eat a deer than have a family member die in an auto accident after hitting a deer."------
> 
> The causality of dying in a car wreck after hitting a deer is driving a car, along with other factors, such as inattention, driving too fast for conditions, not wearing a seat belt, poor safety design, poor road design, along with many others but that is just to give an idea.
> 
> ...


and you have worked in a emergency room for how long? put how many drivers and passengers in body bags? at 55 mph, the speed limit, a deer can and ofter comes through the windshield. i guess you would rather subscribe to the chines philosophy of only allowing one child, a son, and do away with the female babies.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

------" and you have worked in a emergency room for how long?"-----

40 years. 

-----" i guess you would rather subscribe to the chines philosophy of only allowing one child, a son, and do away with the female babies."-------

Where did I say that?


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## nicky (Jan 12, 2014)

I've only read bits & pieces of this thread and various other threads and they remind me of when I was young. When I was about 15 I declared to my parents that I was no longer eating meat and was becoming a strict vegetarian. We raised cattle. :laugh: My mother said that was fine but that I would need to prepare my own meals. I also got involved in the PETA movement and became the biggest pain in the butt to my family and the local grocery store. I would put the peta stickers in the barn and on everything I could at the grocery store. They said "animals suffered in order for you to eat this product". The grocery store asked my mom to not bring me back in. I was passionate about it but not very educated. I would argue with anyone who would engage me. 

I have since changed my views but still disagree with inhumane killing of animals. I HATE hunters who kill for the sport of it and just want bragging rights, I have met a few of them and have said a thing or 2 to them. I now respect hunters (the old school type of hunter) who kill for food and help the overpopulation. They do not want an animal to suffer and they kill it in the quickest way possible. Nothing is wasted. If you have ever seen a wolf kill a foal or calf or your dog you will clearly see that most human hunters kill more humanely. Sometimes wolves kill for sport. 

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and can put whatever they want into their bodies. I have no need to go to a automotive forum and discuss oxtail recipes.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Lobobear44 said:


> I agree with everything you said what I'm telling everyone.


 



 

Allan Savory has a detailed plan that will produce all the results you want. This is a completely natural, sustainable and renewable method that can be instituted anywhere, under almost any conditions. And the results are completely amazing. Allan Savory has had many projects that he documents before and after results, in many very different areas. And this means of using natural rehabilitation of degraded lands works very quickly when properly instituted.





 
Here is a more detailed video of Allan Savory presenting his ideas, and showing the results of his ideas when applied. I highly recommend watching this to everyone. You might want to skip the first ten minutes, it is introductions. But by all means, watch the rest.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> See all about the people not animals. Think of both animals and people. Is that not clear to you?


Maybe that's because I am a human, and while humans are animal, I am really not all that concerned with animals that are not humans. Or rather, my concern is for humans first. I would never take meat out of season, or bag more than my limit, but, I am not concerned with the fact that to feed some creatures, other creatures must die. Doesn't bother me at all.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

I'd cheer for wolves any day...


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

My sister came home last night and I told her I saw another dobe. Played, etc not scared. She goes to the extreme that it would be racists if I wasn't scared.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> My sister came home last night and I told her I saw another dobe. Played, etc not scared. She goes to the extreme that it would be racists if I wasn't scared.



I do not understand what the heck that means? can you explain the racist comment and how that even makes sense,


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Eiros said:


> It takes 25-50 lbs of grain to make a pound of beef, it takes 120 gallons of water for a pound of beef. I don't know exactly how many humans that could feed, but it's sure a heck of a lot more than two 8oz steaks. Obviously different crops take different amounts of water, but none require an amount even close to beef, with such little output, comparatively. It will never be more efficient and ecologically beneficial to raise cattle. I know that the meat industry isn't going anywhere though, so I try and encourage and support local farms rather than commercial meat and dairy production. A lot of the people who've spoken up about their own farming practices on this thread I would buy products from haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The other issue being, cattle raised for meat are far different than those raised for milk, so it doubles the problem. Nobody with sense eats milk cows - one, nobody eats heifers and 2, most people wouldn't eat it because of the high fat content. The same stats can be used to produce a gallon of milk, the end being waste animal.

I will say, if the OP is not growing his own vegetables - which is not impossible even in the winter, my gf has a cold frame they dug below the frost line, so really she has proven nobody has an excuse, but is buying from the grocer, he contributes as much to the problems as anyone. 

There are places in our developed countries where animals as a protein source have been introduced, with no natural predators, the only option is hunting. There are places that no amount of work with soil will produce viable crops, especially since many areas you cannot transport dirt/fertilizer/seeds because they can become invasive and disrupt the natural balance and ecosystem of the land.

There is one province in Canada where the rates of obesity, cholesterol, and type II diabetes is astronomical. People do not have the skills, nor the availability of fertile land to grow vegetables, many consider crap from a can or pre-packaged to be acceptable. I'm all for ethical farming, but you better know what you are talking about. I grow my own vegetables, I can/freeze/store a year's worth, and we hunt and we buy a side of beef off a friend... I won't apologize to an A/R person for that, because while they were getting magic marker off their hands from making placards they googled sayings for, I was cleaning the dirt from under my nails, growing food for my family. I guess if their grocery store points card hugs them back it's a fair trade.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

This entire thread does not make any sense.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> My sister came home last night and I told her I saw another dobe. Played, etc not scared. She goes to the extreme that it would be racists if I wasn't scared.


Now if she said, "breedist" then we would mostly agree with her.

You were bitten because of your actions with an unfamiliar dog, and only in part because of the dog's breeds. Dobermans can be very quick to react. They can react before they think. And so can a lot of dogs. But I also think that for the dog to do that, well, I don't think that is a dog that I would want to breed, at least not a show dog that I would want to breed. 

Most show dogs go to pet homes. Sorry, folks but its true, and a dog that is that reactive, probably could make trouble for a show home. Though, not being a Doberman person, I may be all wet on that -- for that breed. If it was a shepherd that did that, a show dog -- then I would think it should not be bred. 

Evenso, I think that there is some breedism that is harmful and unfounded and other breedism that makes sense. I mean, when people see a GSD, and say to the owner that their dog will turn on them, and they should put it down, well that is harmful and unfounded. But when people are considering a dog, looking at what a dog breed was bred for initially and what their typical traits are, that makes a lot of sense. 

On the other hand, if a large brindle dog bites you in the face, you may be nervous around large brindle dogs. That is called some type of conditioning in psychology. I think racism is a lot different than having a problem with one type of person and then deciding that all people of that type are to be feared. But if we go down that tangent, this thread probably won't last too long.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

alexg said:


> This entire thread does not make any sense.


Agreed it went off the rails sometime around the "assisted suicide" comments, now we are at random racist Dobes and heifers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ozzymama said:


> The other issue being, cattle raised for meat are far different than those raised for milk, so it doubles the problem. Nobody with sense eats milk cows - one, nobody eats heifers and 2, most people wouldn't eat it because of the high fat content. The same stats can be used to produce a gallon of milk, the end being waste animal.
> 
> I will say, if the OP is not growing his own vegetables - which is not impossible even in the winter, my gf has a cold frame they dug below the frost line, so really she has proven nobody has an excuse, but is buying from the grocer, he contributes as much to the problems as anyone.
> 
> ...


I think too many starving Ohioans do not have much sense then. When a milk cow can't get up, they slaughter her and sell her for freezer beef. People buy it because they can get a deal on the meat. Of course, starving Ohioans go after road kill deer too.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think too many starving Ohioans do not have much sense then. When a milk cow can't get up, they slaughter her and sell her for freezer beef. People buy it because they can get a deal on the meat. Of course, starving Ohioans go after road kill deer too.


Ahh brings me to the time i watched the front man for black flag (henry rollins) go around exploring the worlds crazy stuff and ran into two dudes that ate road kill clean off the highway.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

selzer said:


> I think too many starving Ohioans do not have much sense then. When a milk cow can't get up, they slaughter her and sell her for freezer beef. People buy it because they can get a deal on the meat. Of course, starving Ohioans go after road kill deer too.



I've eaten it, but it's not my preference and it's not what is sold typically, sure you will find some super red, regular ground beef and you know where it came from, but it doubles the issues that nobody really argues exist with beef production. You don't eat for the most part milk producing cattle, so it doubles the methane gas, land stripping arguments... You produce cattle for two different purposes, same as nobody buys leather that is old feedlot - those cows are kept in ideal conditions for their skin. The jacket you pay $500 for was not laying around in a feedlot covered in manure.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Um.....where do you suppose the meat comes from to make dog food.......


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sparra said:


> Um.....where do you suppose the meat comes from to make dog food.......


This is why I can't afford to be an Animal Rights person. When I think of all the chickens that had to die for my dogs in the last year... 

It kind of makes even me squeamish. 

As for beef, Beef is not that common an ingredient in dog food. Too expensive. I expect that meat and bone meal would be beef if it died in a drought somewhere or was unburied months later after dying in a blizzard. But otherwise we would be talking about only those sections humans don't eat. Only now, they use the penises for dog treats. But I would expect that certain sections of the beef critter might go to the dogs, kind of like we would do if we butchered the animal ourselves.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

It all goes somewhere......nothing is wasted......these cows don't live out their lives on dairies and die of natural causes.....they go to market and it all goes somewhere.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sparra said:


> It all goes somewhere......nothing is wasted......these cows don't live out their lives on dairies and die of natural causes.....they go to market and it all goes somewhere.


Oh, I know. It goes somewhere. Lots of people DO eat retired dairy cows. I thought male calves would be castrated and raised as veal. But I guess I just assumed that, considering you really do not even want to keep a lot of bulls around. 

I wasn't sure if beef cattle are used for veal. I guess I always expected them to be raised to full weight and then slaughtered for beef.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

A lot of dairies carry beef bulls.....if they don't need replacement stock they use the beef bulls over their cows.....ain't nothing wrong with that beef......heifer or not. 
The issue I have over here with dairies is what is done with the pure dairy breed bull calves.....this needs to be changed as their treatment can be questionable.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Are we talking veal? 

I have never tried it, because I find the way they are raised to be cruel. It is my understanding (I heard once or read somewhere) that they are kept in small stalls in barns with little or no light so that their move ment will be very restricted, and they are raised to have the optimal fat and slaughtered young to produce veal.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> Now if she said, "breedist" then we would mostly agree with her.
> 
> You were bitten because of your actions with an unfamiliar dog, and only in part because of the dog's breeds. Dobermans can be very quick to react. They can react before they think. And so can a lot of dogs. But I also think that for the dog to do that, well, I don't think that is a dog that I would want to breed, at least not a show dog that I would want to breed.
> 
> ...


Luckily for me that didn't happen. Although did the last time I got bit on the face at 5 on face by a spaniel mix we had for 2 days only. Only this time my bite was worse still not scared but more careful on the contrary and safe side. You know what this ain't make sense no more... Thread not make any sense better or worse than Lady Gaga's and Jackie Chan switcharoo.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

selzer said:


> Are we talking veal?
> 
> I have never tried it, because I find the way they are raised to be cruel. It is my understanding (I heard once or read somewhere) that they are kept in small stalls in barns with little or no light so that their move ment will be very restricted, and they are raised to have the optimal fat and slaughtered young to produce veal.



You are correct... Depending on the type, veal calves are typically slaughtered between 16-20 weeks, and yes, they are confined and not allowed to walk or exercise, to prevent firming of the muscles/meat. 


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobo...
You know what this ain't make sense no more... Thread not make any sense better or worse than Lady Gaga's and Jackie Chan switcharoo.
what does that mean?


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

alexg said:


> This entire thread does not make any sense.


 
ROFL! agreed...but it makes an interesting read.

Or at least parts of it do


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Luckily for me that didn't happen. Although did the last time I got bit on the face at 5 on face by a spaniel mix we had for 2 days only. Only this time my bite was worse still not scared but more careful on the contrary and safe side. You know what this ain't make sense no more... Thread not make any sense better or worse than Lady Gaga's and Jackie Chan switcharoo.


 
Why was your face that close to an unfamiliar dog?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

meldy said:


> Why was your face that close to an unfamiliar dog?



I think the real question here is, what is a lady gaga jackie chan switcherooo...aint got no sense no makin.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I think the real question here is, what is a lady gaga jackie chan switcherooo...aint got no sense no makin.


 
Im curious too as to how the English skill is deteriorating so badly. From clear English to this sort of 'straight outta tha ozarks' nonsense. 

Starting to suspect some sort of major trollage?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

meldy said:


> Im curious too as to how the English skill is deteriorating so badly. From clear English to this sort of 'straight outta tha ozarks' nonsense.
> 
> Starting to suspect some sort of major trollage?




Ya that i dont understand,
To sum it up, Lobo is still at a fork in the road about animals and right, he does not eat any animal and thinks that they should not be used for food or hunted, the sister thinks dobermans are racist. There is a whole bunch of intelligent people wasting time writing meaningful things because what valid points they are making falls on deaf ears..?


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## JojoTobyMax (Jul 10, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> I would alweays vote against changing original nature of GSD through breedig for the purpose of producing so called "friendly" dog genetically. With the loss of a potential to become agressive GSD loses his intellect. Something happens to dogs bred for being innocuous to humans, and there is a lot of evidence to it: American Cocker Spanial and many other sub-breeds. But, do people need intellectual dogs? No, they don't. Proper raising your puppy, controlling yourself first of all ( GSD grows agressive in families living in conflict, nervous and agressive themselves people) and educating him requires a considerable effort. The majority of dogs' owners *are happy to have a beautiful vegetable on the lead* instead of bothering themselves and paying money to trainers. People like not the dog, but his shape, which is a replica of their old enemy - the wolf. That is where the idea springs from: to have a living toy deprived of claws and teeth. Crowds of dolphin admirers prefer to see them in the circus, not in the wild, some even say that it is the only way to save them - todeprive from freedom. Changing that which was preserved throughout so many centures, GSD temperament and other natural qualities have to be lost to breeding programms, and it terrifies me much more than depriving cats from claws surgically, or chopping off dogs' ears and tails for cosmetic reasons. But, the wish to adjust other living beings and make them more convenient for modern life and future survival of one type of species - that is us, the humans - is above the humans. There is one in a few million can live a single day like Jesus, or be a fraction that much sacrificial like Him. Jesus teachings weren't about animals, but they were and are for many a sound of a *true nature of love to life* in general. Humans are not the gods, they simply uncapable of being sorry with factory chickens who do not and will not have any rights ever, because it is more convenient to think they have "chicken brains".


Huh????:crazy:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> There is a whole bunch of intelligent people wasting time writing meaningful things because what valid points they are making falls on deaf ears..?


 And some of the valid points are deleted anyway.  You're right, it don't make no sense.

Then again, I wouldn't listen to anyone when I was 18 either. 

I can only hope that maybe some other confused kid is reading the comments, thinking, and learning.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

meldy said:


> Im curious too as to how the English skill is deteriorating so badly. From clear English to this sort of 'straight outta tha ozarks' nonsense.
> 
> Starting to suspect some sort of major trollage?


 Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Hey, is the "cognitive distance" part deleted? I thought that was very telling, in the sense that Lobo's picked up a phrase in conversation (cognitive dissonance) and attempted to use it himself. The fact that it was used incorrectly doesn't matter. What matters is that he's actually discussing his ideals with people IRL, and this will help him. I'm sure someone's used 'cognitive dissonance' while speaking to him (maybe the sister: "the excessive mental stress and discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time." - taken from Wiki) obviously wanting to place dogs on equal footing as humans while at the same time wanting to train them is a huge disconnect.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

meldy said:


> Why was your face that close to an unfamiliar dog?


Didn't put my face near is when bitten....


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Didn't put my face near is when bitten....


 
...lol....wut??


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Hey, is the "cognitive distance" part deleted? I thought that was very telling, in the sense that Lobo's picked up a phrase in conversation (cognitive dissonance) and attempted to use it himself. The fact that it was used incorrectly doesn't matter. What matters is that he's actually discussing his ideals with people IRL, and this will help him. I'm sure someone's used 'cognitive dissonance' while speaking to him (maybe the sister: "the excessive mental stress and discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time." - taken from Wiki) obviously wanting to place dogs on equal footing as humans while at the same time wanting to train them is a huge disconnect.


 Yes, I commented on that, but the post was deleted. 

I thought the malapropism was hilarious, but people seem to take it as a personal affront if you correct their grammar. As a self-appointed Grammar Nazi, you can imagine how hard it is for me to bite my tongue sometimes. Alas, I am imperfect and sometimes fail...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Freestep, I'd get upset if you corrected my grammar (or spelling) too. Because it doesn't matter how many times I proof a post before submitting, there's always a glaring error that my mind overlooks - I see what I _want_ to see, lol! So I'd be saying, "I KNOW! UGH!" instead of thanking you, lmao.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lobo...
> You know what this ain't make sense no more... Thread not make any sense better or worse than Lady Gaga's and Jackie Chan switcharoo.
> what does that mean?


Aiming to get good at family guys jokes


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Freestep, I'd get upset if you corrected my grammar too. Because it doesn't matter how many times I proof a post before submitting, there's always a glaring error that my mind overlooks - I see what I _want_ to see, lol! So I'd be saying, "I KNOW! UGH!" instead of thanking you, lmao.


 I know, and nowadays with smartphones and that dang autocorrect, you can't always hold someone accountable for spelling/grammar mistakes. I realize this, which is why I try to bite my tongue most of the time. But sometimes I can't help myself and so I apologize for the grammar-policing; it's a compulsive madness on my part.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

meldy said:


> Im curious too as to how the English skill is deteriorating so badly. From clear English to this sort of 'straight outta tha ozarks' nonsense.
> 
> Starting to suspect some sort of major trollage?


Are you suggesting the OP is a troll?! Be very carefull, the last time I questioned the same, my post was deleted and I was reprimanded by the mods/admins.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

alexg said:


> Are you suggesting the OP is a troll?! Be very carefull, the last time I questioned the same, my post was deleted and I was reprimanded by the mods/admins.


 
Noted....


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

@Freestep: its ok you got too have fun to.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Didn't put my face near is when bitten....


family guy joke?
aints gotz no bitten der der der.


Sincerly Lobo, 
Were are you at with AR people at the moment, and can you please tell me what was implied when you mentioned that dobe/racism tid bit.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Well, i have tried to power thru multiple AR commercials, some are really well done, like the "dont torture stray dogs" one which i fully agree on. A crazy lady waving a "kill yourself" poster...ended up on shirtless Ryan Gosling and well its been a wash since,


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> ...ended up on shirtless Ryan Gosling and well its been a wash since,


 
mmmmm.....well now I definitely wont abuse animals!! lol 

Little like Pam Anderson in her skivvies in Peta commercials. Cuz people that make you drool (she doesn't but you get the idea) will be listened too more than smart people?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

meldy said:


> mmmmm.....well now I definitely wont abuse animals!! lol
> 
> Little like Pam Anderson in her skivvies in Peta commercials. Cuz people that make you drool (she doesn't but you get the idea) will be listened too more than smart people?


No he was not being AR crazy although i klnow he supports homeless animals which is amazing and has one that is from a shelter..but he was not in any animal rights mayhem commercials ...now i do remember when Pam wrapped herslelf in lettuce and modelled for peta but alot of peoples have issues with peta.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Ive always wondered if some kind of breeding license would slow down homeless animals. 
As in a fine or something for breeding Bobo with Fluffy so that children can witness the miracle of birth....only to have those miracles left in a box by a dumpster shortly after.

Forcing BYB to be responsible for what they are producing


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think that would effectively target the small hobby breeder as well, who are quite capable of adhering to their own internal guidelines and ideals when breeding. It would just punish everyone with one broad stroke.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Galathiel said:


> I think that would effectively target the small hobby breeder as well, who are quite capable of adhering to their own internal guidelines and ideals when breeding. It would just punish everyone with one broad stroke.


 
How are we defining hobby breeder as being different from a BYB?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the racism comment comes from here:





Now that we mentioned Nazis, I think this thread can go bye-bye. I think everything coherent has been stated. I think the mods are playing keep-away from this thread. 

Probably the smart thing to do.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

meldy said:


> Ive always wondered if some kind of breeding license would slow down homeless animals.
> As in a fine or something for breeding Bobo with Fluffy so that children can witness the miracle of birth....only to have those miracles left in a box by a dumpster shortly after.
> 
> Forcing BYB to be responsible for what they are producing


Licensing never works. Either the bar will be set too low to get the license and no one will be happy with it, or the bar will be set too high and no one will be happy with it. Then you'll always have the people just do it because they can and they know they can't get caught...just think about it, you can drive without a drivers license and as long as you don't get pulled over, no one will be the wiser.

Look at the SV system...set up to "protect" the breed. People got fed up with following the higher standards and just started breeding without following all their rules. Not like they went to jail for it...

The population that cares about good breeding...is very small and not big enough to get any kind of real legislation passed or convince enough of the indifferent people to vote for it anyways. And even though we're small...we can't come close to agreeing what the "standards" would be anyways.

Whenever people bring up legislation, I always think about how it will be enforced. Dog things, extremely difficult to enforce at the end of the day, and probably not worth the time or money of a police department or another organization that would be set up to deal with it.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

There is so much wrong with that commercial, pulling the KKK card really tells you were there minds are,


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

WHOA! Thank you for posting the ridiculous PETA ad, selzer. I'd have never seen it otherwise. What a crock of poo that is. Now honestly, how much of a dolt would you have to be for that to make any kind of sense to you? Do people think that the different breeds fell from the sky for no reason? LOL!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

so what they are really saying is,
They hate PB dogs,


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's so absurd it's making me laugh. Anyone could turn the tables on that crap and have PETA in the KKK outfit. Aren't they the ones with the torches, after all? Idiots.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> There is so much wrong with that commercial, pulling the KKK card really tells you were there minds are,



Sadly that is the only argument they use lately....if you disagree with anything or want an opinion...you are called racist...:-/ 


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If that's the case, then it's pretty simple. They're only speaking to a white audience because any other race will find that attitude so offensive and ignorant that they'll ignore them. So from that minority of whites left over, how many of them will also find their attitude repulsive? Probably most. Hmm, not too many people left listening to them? GOOD!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> If that's the case, then it's pretty simple. They're only speaking to a white audience because any other race will find that attitude so offensive and ignorant that they'll ignore them. So from that minority of whites left over, how many of them will also find their attitude repulsive? Probably most. Hmm, not too many people left listening to them? GOOD!


pretty much, that commercial made me sick, the fact they even pulled out something as evil as the KKK..really..im surprised they dont have hitler dog ads going.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> family guy joke?
> aints gotz no bitten der der der.
> 
> 
> ...


My sister came home the other day late at night. Didn't have time to argue with her. Told her I hung out with a Doberman and am not scared of Dobermans even after getting bitten by one. She said that's good, being afraid of all Dobermans other breeds would be racist. Isn't that extreme? Dogs aren't people and its a reaction for ppl to be scared after a dog like pit Gs or dobe etc attacking them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> It's so absurd it's making me laugh. Anyone could turn the tables on that crap and have PETA in the KKK outfit. Aren't they the ones with the torches, after all? Idiots.


Yes, exactly, they are projecting. 

PETA and AR people are scary though. They have changed things. All this "adoption" and "guardian" crap is PETA-speak. They have some pretty rich people, tons of money backing them. They show terrible photos of abused and neglected animals, and money pours in. That money goes to their lawyers and lobbyists and the people high up in the organization. It ought to be criminal how little actually goes to critters. 

The critters are not their concern, not domestic critters. Remember, pets are against their belief systems. They run some shelters, but something like 97-99% of the dogs that go into a PETA-run shelter are euthanized. They do not list them on Pet Finder, or find rescues or foster homes. If someone walks into the shelter and finds the perfect pet, he may be able to buy it. But, mostly, the dogs that come in do not come out. And cats are even worse. They sometimes do not even make it to the shelter, but are euthanized in the van after being picked up. 

It is evil to make your living off of the suffering of animals, whether you are breeding them and keep them in attrocious conditions, cutting all corners, being neglectful and abusive, or if you are using the money donated to helping abused and neglected animals to fund your fat pay check. That is what PETA is, Evil. 

However their followers, disciples, soldiers, backers are normally in it because they truly love animals. That is the tragedy. They think they can help animals by supporting and following PETA.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Well written Selzer, !


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not good with bigots of any persuasion. I don't care if they're racist, sexist, ageist, whatever. If they've got the IQ of a popsicle, then that's their problem, not mine. Can you imagine if someone said they're not going to consider your opinion because you're short? HUH?! Wave the 'stupid' flag, see if I care 

ETA: I don't know anyone who supports PETA. I do know one person who did in the past, but too many of their shenanigans have been exposed, and they bailed on them.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think the racism comment comes from here:
> PETA US' KKK Video Aimed At Kennel Club - YouTube
> 
> Now that we mentioned Nazis, I think this thread can go bye-bye. I think everything coherent has been stated. I think the mods are playing keep-away from this thread.
> ...


That is so offensive, really? AR groups and PETA will never learn will they. We need to find away to stop them before our dogs are extinct from domestication animal companions.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> That is so offensive, really? AR groups and PETA will never learn will they. We need to find away to stop them before our dogs are extinct from domestication animal companions.


Okay wait. Now you are against AR people?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Maybe fight them back by keep getting dogs from responsible breeders


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's the people who don't think they're making a commitment when they take an animal home that's the worst problem, IMO. Not saying to support BYB, but if each of the BYB puppies died of old age in their own homes, you couldn't blame the problem on them anymore. Unless you just wanted a scapegoat, that is.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

And blanket hit the nail on the head, a dog is a dog once you bring the little bundle home it is your resposibility to care for it until end of life, even if that means parvo at 12 weeks or cancer at 5 years. BYB are breeding dogs that really they should not be but it is the buyers job to take care of their animals regardless. A dog that is poorly bred or well bred can end up a shelter dump by a careless individual in no time.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> If that's the case, then it's pretty simple. They're only speaking to a white audience because any other race will find that attitude so offensive and ignorant that they'll ignore them. So from that minority of whites left over, how many of them will also find their attitude repulsive? Probably most. Hmm, not too many people left listening to them? GOOD!



Agreed! Let hope people are tuning them out...


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Okay wait. Now you are against AR people?


The extreme types with black and white views yes. I'm one though that doesn't go extreme like they. Last year learned the hard way about extreme blindly pretty quick. Comparing the holocaust and meat industries brainwashed by the AR groups and my sister on extreme corresponding views can make ppl uncomfortable. Her group is planning to bring dead animals not from a grocery or anything but like dead chickens, pigs, cats, dogs. This is to prove a point. That sounds really extreme too. I never liked extreme because just scary and a wrong way to persuade ppl.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Since I'm a mod in this forum, you can be assured I'm keeping up with this, or atleast trying 



> Now that we mentioned Nazis, I think this thread can go bye-bye. I think everything coherent has been stated. I think the mods are playing keep-away from this thread.


Actually I have only seen you, sue, bring up the nazi thing, maybe twice? Maybe I missed it another post, since this thread is turning into a novel As usual, you just have to throw your little 'jabs' about us mods, we get it you don't happen to like us, you don't have to keep repeating it And I find it REALLY OFFENSIVE that you seem to refer to us as the nazi police.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> Yes, I commented on that, but the post was deleted.
> 
> I thought the malapropism was hilarious, but people seem to take it as a personal affront if you correct their grammar. As a self-appointed Grammar Nazi, you can imagine how hard it is for me to bite my tongue sometimes. Alas, I am imperfect and sometimes fail...





JakodaCD OA said:


> Since I'm a mod in this forum, you can be assured I'm keeping up with this, or atleast trying
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I have only seen you, sue, bring up the nazi thing, maybe twice? Maybe I missed it another post, since this thread is turning into a novel As usual, you just have to throw your little 'jabs' about us mods, we get it you don't happen to like us, you don't have to keep repeating it And I find it REALLY OFFENSIVE that you seem to refer to us as the nazi police.



I have NEVER referred you mods all as the Nazi Police. Not once, not ever. Not Nazis, not gestapo. I want you to find it, if I EVER have done something like that, because that's a pretty good slice of liable or slander or whatever. 

I USED to refer to you all as the Mod Squad when this place had some humor. Whatever. It was never meant to offend. I guess it does. 

I don't have to dislike people to wonder about or question some of the recent trends.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yesterday, I mentioned Nazis in the gratefulness thread. It was ABOUT a couple of women in Holland under Nazi control who were thankful for the fleas. 

I said something about every thread coming down to the Nazi's because I have seen some of that recently. Whatever. 

I posted that right after a thread was closed -- one you were participating in, and people were having a great time with picking on a 17 year old newbie for misunderstanding your advice as being an attack, before GSDSAR mercifully closed it. 

I say "mercifully" because you all were getting carried away, and she was being more and more defensive. 

But I certainly did not liken you all to Nazis. And that is really offensive. 
It is offensive to be accused of that. And if you cannot find where I ever did that, then maybe an apology would be in order.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Where are they getting these dead animals??? 



Lobobear44 said:


> The extreme types with black and white views yes. I'm one though that doesn't go extreme like they. Last year learned the hard way about extreme blindly pretty quick. Comparing the holocaust and meat industries brainwashed by the AR groups and my sister on extreme corresponding views can make ppl uncomfortable. Her group is planning to bring dead animals not from a grocery or anything but like dead chickens, pigs, cats, dogs. This is to prove a point. That sounds really extreme too. I never liked extreme because just scary and a wrong way to persuade ppl.






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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

*completly*

This thread is getting.. umm interesting.



selzer said:


> Yes, exactly, they are projecting.
> 
> PETA and AR people are scary though. They have changed things. All this "adoption" and "guardian" crap is PETA-speak. They have some pretty rich people, tons of money backing them. They show terrible photos of abused and neglected animals, and money pours in. That money goes to their lawyers and lobbyists and the people high up in the organization. It ought to be criminal how little actually goes to critters.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this. PETA is an atrocity. They target and smear breeders, no-kill shelters, adoptions, keeping of pets, and anyone that speaks out about it with the false pretense of "being kind" or "doing the right thing" when in reality their twisted agenda/views are far from genuine/caring.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

then I do apologize, (because frankly I don't feel like going thru pages of postings) but I still find it offensive to constantly be reading your little snipes about how we moderate this forum.."mod squad" whatever, 

As for the 17 year old, he was rude, gutter mouth, multiple postings, and when asked not to, sent some nasty pm's, asked a question and didn't like the answers. 

Sorry this went OT posters


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

"Every thread coming down to the Nazis"? What exactly DOES that mean? :thinking:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, I read it in Wikipaedia a while back, and noticed a few threads going that way:

*Godwin's law* (or *Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies*)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" [2][3]—​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

There have been several threads recently here that have alluded to Nazi Germany as they went on with terms like Nazi and Gestapo, etc.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> The extreme types with black and white views yes. I'm one though that doesn't go extreme like they. Last year learned the hard way about extreme blindly pretty quick. Comparing the holocaust and meat industries brainwashed by the AR groups and my sister on extreme corresponding views can make ppl uncomfortable. Her group is planning to bring dead animals not from a grocery or anything but like dead chickens, pigs, cats, dogs. This is to prove a point. That sounds really extreme too. I never liked extreme because just scary and a wrong way to persuade ppl.


Are they getting them from the adoptable animals peta pts without just cause,


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I referred to myself as a "Grammar Nazi". Sorry bout that, it was meant to be a humorous self-depreciating term, not an insult. If it's considered offensive to use the term even in jest, I'll stop.... and maybe it should be one of those auto-censored words!


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Since I'm a mod in this forum, you can be assured I'm keeping up with this, or atleast trying
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I have only seen you, sue, bring up the nazi thing, maybe twice? Maybe I missed it another post, since this thread is turning into a novel As usual, you just have to throw your little 'jabs' about us mods, we get it you don't happen to like us, you don't have to keep repeating it And I find it REALLY OFFENSIVE that you seem to refer to us as the nazi police.


Um I'm not referring to anyone and never well as nazi. PETA and other AR groups refer to ppl who eat meat, breeders, even buyers of breeders, ppl who have favorite purbreds like us as Nazis/ slave owners/ murders/. The list of extreme goes on and on. I am more experience with AR stuff because for one my sister is one who started all the vegan stuff. She made our dogs vegan. If you disagree with her she scares my parents and I. She believes ppl are evil if they eat meat and are animal haters or don't care. Remember ppl on FB making themselves clear she just didn't say much of anything. Tell her "not all is like that" she doesnt say much. altho it was my own decision to become vegan and explore more. My intentions are to help animals, but no intentions are meant to harrass ppl with extremes. except with the minorities of AR ppl like myself are respectful of other ppl. Except when it comes to hunting, clothes, the cove, circuses, bullfighting, etc. I agree their comparison to the most extreme nazis is way too offensive. You wanted to know what is going on right? Just felt the need to share PETAS and AR groups extreme offensive on ppl. Well, animals too.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Are they getting them from the adoptable animals peta pts without just cause,


I have no idea where they are getting them from.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> Um I'm not referring to anyone and never well as nazi. PETA and other AR groups refer to ppl who eat meat, breeders, even buyers of breeders, ppl who have favorite purbreds like us as Nazis/ slave owners/ murders/. The list of extreme goes on and on. I am more experience with AR stuff because for one my sister is one who started all the vegan stuff. She made our dogs vegan. If you disagree with her she scares my parents and I. She believes ppl are evil if they eat meat and are animal haters or don't care. Remember ppl on FB making themselves clear she just didn't say much of anything. Tell her "not all is like that" she doesnt say much. altho it was my own decision to become vegan and explore more. My intentions are to help animals, but no intentions are meant to harrass ppl with extremes. except with the minorities of AR ppl like myself are respectful of other ppl. Except when it comes to hunting, clothes, the cove, circuses, bullfighting, etc. I agree their comparison to the most extreme nazis is way too offensive. You wanted to know what is going on right? Just felt the need to share PETAS and AR groups extreme offensive on ppl. Well, animals too.


You know what, lobobear, not every post here is about you, or directed to you.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

This thread is making me hungry for a steak...a meat steak.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> I agree their comparison to the *most extreme nazis* is way too offensive.


 As opposed to the less extreme Nazis?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Wetdog said:


> Allan Savory - Reversing Global Warming while Meeting Human Needs - YouTube
> 
> Here is a more detailed video of Allan Savory presenting his ideas, and showing the results of his ideas when applied. I highly recommend watching this to everyone.


Thank you so much for sharing this, Wetdog! I just finished watching it, and I'm also highly recommending that others watch it too. This is the best thing I've seen in a very very long time.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Frankly Lobo your sister sounds like she needs help the fact she "scares" your parents suggest they have no control over her, if what you write is true please find a new home for your dope doodle before she liberates him with a butcher knife.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Frankly Lobo your sister sounds like she needs help the fact she "scares" your parents suggest they have no control over her, if what you write is true please find a new home for your dope doodle before she liberates him with a butcher knife.


She wouldn't hurt Riley ever. Just is very verbally scary and threatening. My parents do a horrible job their whole life controlling her.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> She wouldn't hurt Riley ever. Just is very verbally scary and threatening. My parents do a horrible job their whole life controlling her.


she does not threaten him does she?


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

LOL, making carnivores into vegans because of your own personal belief? The dogs should be afraid of the sister as well. It would be like me making my horses eat meat, how utterly ridiculous.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

LARHAGE said:


> LOL, making carnivores into vegans because of your own personal belief? The dogs should be afraid of the sister as well. It would be like me making my horses eat meat, how utterly ridiculous.


 
I had a horse that loved hot dogs and Hawaiian pizza 
Wouldn't make it a full time diet though!! 

There was a case somewhere that vegans tried this with a kitten and nearly killed it

Kitten Nearly Dies On Vegan Diet, Gets Healed With Meat


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

It's amazing how stupid some people are.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

dpc134 said:


> It's amazing how stupid some people are.


really? lol


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> she does not threaten him does she?


No and she thinks breeders animal trainers, etc dont give animals their consent. Just cause they can't speak. She is not giving dogs consent on their diet which is messed up.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Freestep said:


> As opposed to the less extreme Nazis?


What do you mean? Anything comparing to nazis/ holocaust is too extreme it's wrong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lobobear44 said:


> No and she thinks breeders animal trainers, etc dont give animals their consent. Just cause they can't speak. She is not giving dogs consent on their diet which is messed up.


She needs an education. Both males and female dogs definitely consent to breeding. In fact they will move mountains to get to each other on the right days. 

Yes, animal trainers do coerce dogs into doing what they want. They have superior intelligence, and they use it along with positive and sometimes negative reinforcement/punishment for the desired result, BUT, most dogs really love good training sessions. It is for them an outlet for their intelligence and exercise for their bodies, while it is engagement with the human that they desire to please. A trained dog is a happy dog.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

If she is denying the dog (who is a carnivore at heart) meat, then she is a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> If she is denying the dog (who is a carnivore at heart) meat, then she is a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously.


I agree my sister is blindly a hypocrite and she tells everyone they are hypocrites. That if they don't agree behind their backs.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> She needs an education. Both males and female dogs definitely consent to breeding. In fact they will move mountains to get to each other on the right days.
> 
> Yes, animal trainers do coerce dogs into doing what they want. They have superior intelligence, and they use it along with positive and sometimes negative reinforcement/punishment for the desired result, BUT, most dogs really love good training sessions. It is for them an outlet for their intelligence and exercise for their bodies, while it is engagement with the human that they desire to please. A trained dog is a happy dog.


Dogs love to train and I do think dogs absolutely give consent to train. Even in dog shows too much happier than being humanized. Dogs aren't people and my sister doesn't get that she literally think all animals are people.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I agree my sister is blindly a hypocrite and she tells everyone they are hypocrites. That if they don't agree behind their backs.


 
So is this whole thread a dedicated attack on your sister?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

meldy said:


> So is this whole thread a dedicated attack on your sister?


No just she is impossible. Anyways some AR people also think of our beloved animal companions such as dogs and cats slaves too.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> No just she is impossible. Anyways some AR people also think of our beloved animal companions such as dogs and cats slaves too.


 
Then why do you have 2 dogs?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Define slave? Lobo.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Lobobear44 said:


> Dogs love to train and I do think dogs absolutely give consent to train. Even in dog shows too much happier than being humanized. Dogs aren't people and my sister doesn't get that she literally think all animals are people.


What does she think of other AR extremest that hate humans? (Like the quotes by the nutcase below) Does she agree to that?

"I don't believe that people have the right to life. That's a supremacist perversion. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, (PETA)

"There is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, (PETA)

"I am not a morose person, but I would rather not be here. I don't have any reverence for life, only for the entities themselves. I would rather see a blank space where I am. This will sound like fruitcake stuff again but at least I wouldn't be harming anything."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, founder, president and former national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA)

"I'm not only uninterested in having children. I am opposed to having children. Having a purebred human baby is like having a purebred dog; it is nothing but vanity, human vanity."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, PETA's founder and president


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes I feel like I'm my dogs' slave.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

meldy said:


> Then why do you have 2 dogs?


I don't see them as slaves. Other AR do. Don't misinterept, judge quickly and jump to conclusions.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> What does she think of other AR extremest that hate humans? (Like the quotes by the nutcase below) Does she agree to that?
> 
> "I don't believe that people have the right to life. That's a supremacist perversion. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
> -- Ingrid Newkirk, (PETA)
> ...


I know a few in here she will agree with. Actually she talks about all 3 first quotes when she agrees with those and says she doesn't like PETA. She hasn't talked much about the last quote.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I don't see them as slaves. Other AR do. Don't misinterept, judge quickly and jump to conclusions.


 
I simply asked a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

The use of 'other AR' implies that you are also an AR activist.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> What does she think of other AR extremest that hate humans? (Like the quotes by the nutcase below) Does she agree to that?
> 
> "I don't believe that people have the right to life. That's a supremacist perversion. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
> -- Ingrid Newkirk, (PETA)
> ...


 
Holy moses....Im off to google this lady...wow. Just...wow...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It could imply that. 

It could also imply the crowd that his sister is hanging with, or other groups. 

When I was his age, we had our causes too. And I have to say, there were a variety of thoughts, and some of those folks were unbalanced. But we had the time to read and research these things and find what a lot of different people thought about it.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

meldy said:


> I had a horse that loved hot dogs and Hawaiian pizza
> Wouldn't make it a full time diet though!!
> 
> There was a case somewhere that vegans tried this with a kitten and nearly killed it
> ...



There was a couple who tried the vegan diet with their new born...it almost died. The mom would not nurse because it was byproduct :-/ 
The baby almost died because of their closed mined views of what they think people should eat to survive....


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> What do you mean? Anything comparing to nazis/ holocaust is too extreme it's wrong.


 That's what I was asking. You said the "most extreme" Nazis, as though there are some Nazis that are less extreme. Just trying to get clarification on what you meant.

How old is your sister? It sounds like she needs psychological help... I mean, everybody does, but she sounds really scary.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

opcorn:

*-*Summer*-*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> That's what I was asking. You said the "most extreme" Nazis, as though there are some Nazis that are less extreme. Just trying to get clarification on what you meant.
> 
> How old is your sister? It sounds like she needs psychological help... I mean, everybody does, but she sounds really scary.


Maybe it was a punctuation issue, maybe he meant, ".... and the most extreme, Nazis..."


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

mcdanfam said:


> There was a couple who tried the vegan diet with their new born...it almost died. The mom would not nurse because it was byproduct :-/
> The baby almost died because of their closed mined views of what they think people should eat to survive....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


o wow, i watched an interesting video on a lady named christina Maggiore, the woman was HIV + believed hiv was an harmless passenger virus and did not cause AIDS, had a baby did not take meds, breastfed the baby and the little girl died at 3 due to AIDS related problems..mom died shortly after of a specific pnemonia ..and i believe oral yeast, all because she lived as a AIDS denialist.  that and the vegan baby is so sad and preventable.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> o wow, i watched an interesting video on a lady named christina Maggiore, the woman was HIV + believed hiv was an harmless passenger virus and did not cause AIDS, had a baby did not take meds, breastfed the baby and the little girl died at 3 due to AIDS related problems..mom died shortly after of a specific pnemonia ..and i believe oral yeast, all because she lived as a AIDS denialist.  that and the vegan baby is so sad and preventable.



Agreed....people who think with emotional instead of facts and logic are a danger....what's sad...we have a lot of them making laws....:-/


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

SummerGSDLover said:


> opcorn:
> 
> *-*Summer*-*


Don't they all lead to it? :crazy:


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

mcdanfam said:


> Agreed....people who think with emotional instead of facts and logic are a danger....what's sad...we have a lot of them making laws....:-/
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Scary enough there seems to be a cult following of AIDS denialist, even the Foo fighters were all for the alive and well with AIDS activists ...they pulled there name out of it when Maggiore kicked the bucket and their PR manager pretty much said "wth are you doing Dave" but its crazy..sad and unecessary,


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

SummerGSDLover said:


> opcorn:
> 
> *-*Summer*-*



 this just happens to be the funnest thread at the moment


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Maybe it was a punctuation issue, maybe he meant, ".... and the most extreme, Nazis..."


Ah yes. This is why punctuation is important. To wit:

"Let's eat, Grandma!" 

vs. 

Let's eat Grandma!"

:crazy:


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> "I don't believe that people have the right to life. That's a supremacist perversion. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
> -- Ingrid Newkirk, (PETA)
> 
> "There is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."
> ...


Ingrid Newkirk is my new hero!


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for all of the advices and coming up with good conversations.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

alexg said:


> Ingrid Newkirk is my new hero!


Mine too! [insert heart] I want to be a great woman like her someday. She doesn't care about human freedoms but that's okay cause our species sucks anyway. We don't know what's good for us!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Newkirk can't be my hero because I despise hypocrites. Saying you care about the plight of animals, while you kill them by the thousands doesn't impress me. To me, PETA is nothing but a gigantic propaganda machine. 

Now Allan Savory is a different story! Wow, he's awesome - he's my new hero. He's exactly what I like to see in an "expert" too: someone who will stomp on their own ego for the betterment of all. Lol, that's the exact opposite of Newkirk - maybe it was her ego that swallowed her vision?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Newkirk can't be my hero because I despise hypocrites. Saying you care about the plight of animals, while you kill them by the thousands doesn't impress me. To me, PETA is nothing but a gigantic propaganda machine.
> 
> Now Allan Savory is a different story! Wow, he's awesome - he's my new hero. He's exactly what I like to see in an "expert" too: someone who will stomp on their own ego for the betterment of all. Lol, that's the exact opposite of Newkirk - maybe it was her ego that swallowed her vision?


They are joking...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How do you know? She has all kinds of followers. People who don't question her motives or her past - they just hop right onto her propaganda train and think they're helping to make the world a better place for animals.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

I was joking. Assumed alexg was too. Guess I should have made it more obvious.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KaiserandStella said:


> I was joking. Assumed alexg was too. Guess I should have made it more obvious.


No worries, we all knew. 

Well, except maybe blanketback. Not sure.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, it's not that I thought you were serious - it was more that I just can't find the humor in the fact that this person bamboozles billions of dollars out of unwitting kindhearted people. If the acronym stood for "People for the Euthanization and Tossing of Animals" then I'd have no problem with it, since she'd be attracting only sickos like herself.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

And anyone who can 'baboozle' billions of dollars out of unwitting kindhearted people is my hero also.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

alexg said:


> And anyone who can 'baboozle' billions of dollars out of unwitting kindhearted people is my hero also.


Oh your killing me,


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Blanketback said:


> Now Allan Savory is a different story! Wow, he's awesome - he's my new hero. He's exactly what I like to see in an "expert" too: someone who will stomp on their own ego for the betterment of all. Lol, that's the exact opposite of Newkirk - maybe it was her ego that swallowed her vision?



For those who might not be familiar with Alan Savory:










If you have not heard Alan Savory's message----I highly recommend watching this video.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

*The Race to Bait*

*To bait or not to bait -- that is a question some hunters ask as firearms deer season approaches, even though deer baiting in Minnesota has been outlawed for almost two decades.*

_*By John Myers*_

* The Race to Bait: Minnesota DNR*


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