# Laos Protection Video



## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

This is my little (well not so little) wild child, Laos. We've been working on teaching this young male to "tap drive" as he has difficulty doing that. I believe that once I start handling him fulltime again in protection that the training will progress as he's responding to the drive tapping in obedience for me. Bob is my other helper and he just doesn't get the same response from Laos that I do.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I am not a fan of the jerking and so much yanking and hostility towards the dog.. I guess I am " new school" according to the Schutzhund Club I train with. We don't introduce a prong unless it is needed, and our trainer has gone through many champions in his time... I left my original prospective club because they wanted $350 every 10 weeks for that crap.... Wasn't thrilled or impressed... your dog looks good... crazy nerves though. beginning Sch though correct?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think Laos looks great, his obedience and drive seemed balanced to me. And he isn't crazy when he gets the sleeve.
There was control in his behaviors and a bit of vocal leaking is ok at his age.
Bob is a bit softer on him than you, LOL!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Wild child indeed!!! Laos is looking great, Lynn. Love him!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

He looks amazing!

You know how I feel about this boy.... pack him up and send him here! 

I love his wild side!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Very nice dog.:thumbup:


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

VaBeachFamily said:


> I am not a fan of the jerking and so much yanking and hostility towards the dog.. I guess I am " new school" according to the Schutzhund Club I train with. We don't introduce a prong unless it is needed, and our trainer has gone through many champions in his time... I left my original prospective club because they wanted $350 every 10 weeks for that crap.... Wasn't thrilled or impressed... your dog looks good... crazy nerves though. beginning Sch though correct?


VABeach ~ I'm not a big fan of that type of training also, but every once in a while you get a dog that doesn't respond to the typical motivational training techniques that I prefer. That prong is definitely needed as we have broke three collars on this dog. Not every training method will work on all dogs. Laos is a strong willed, hard-headed, 95 lb dog with his own agenda. He's also what I consider high drive with a low threshold to get in that state of drive. Cookies and sweet talk will not get you any where with Laos. Is he a good SchH prospect ~ only time will tell. He's not going to be a "sports dog", that much I know.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lynn_P said:


> He's also what I consider high drive with a low threshold to get in that state of drive. Cookies and sweet talk will not get you any where with Laos.


I like to see you try to get Laos to eat a cookie while working on his protection obedience. The only thing that boy wants to eat is the helper!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I am not a fan of the jerking and so much yanking and hostility towards the dog.. I guess I am " new school" according to the Schutzhund Club I train with.


Not to take away from the thread, but I'd be curious how you guys get a high drive, strong willed dog that's h e l l bent on getting the helper to comply? Even a compliant dog needs jerking in protection at times!

Maybe I need to make another thread!


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

G-burg said:


> Not to take away from the thread, but I'd be curious how you guys get a high drive, strong willed dog that's h e l l bent on getting the helper to comply? Even a compliant dog needs jerking in protection at times!
> 
> Maybe I need to make another thread!


I would like to hear from some of you also? No bashing of training techniques, just a good informational debate.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Well since you both are a lot more experienced both in training and of course titling dogs than I am what you seem to both be saying is that of course you can't. Honestly at this point I don't think that physically I could do that with my dog...luckily all is well though I have one of those sport dogs you know the kind that is good for us women to train-I have attended two clubs and visited other clubs which I consider to have had pretty good trainers. I don't have a problem with correcting a dog with a prong-but I can't recall anyone training like that maybe I just don't remember very well and I know they had you know those real dogs--The dog looks very happy training but to me its just not fun to watch-just my opinion but what I feel really strongly about is that if the dog has to learn by being pronged -then I do think it should be the handler doing it--Personally I don't know a better way to train this dog but would like to think I could find someone who did


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't see anything in the video that would make me go "yikes" and I definitely don't see anything close to "hostility towards the dog" there.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

holland said:


> I feel really strongly about is that if the dog has to learn by being pronged -then I do think it should be the handler doing it--Personally I don't know a better way to train this dog but would like to think I could find someone who did


I don't know why I feel like I need to "defend" myself, but I had major surgery two months ago and still am recovering from it. My upper body strength has declined and until I can regain that strength, I have two options ~ put the dog up or allow his co-owner (the second helper) to handle him and continue with the training. This dog needs the mental stimulation of training and would not be happy "being put up".

I guess it comes down to what one is comfortable with and what a dog can handle in the training. You are right, not all dogs could handle this level of compulsion. Laos is happy in the work and though during his obedience imprinting and foundation work early on, I as the handler had to go to some modified compulsion at a certain point in this obedience training. After I made my point that he will comply, I was able to go back to motivation training and bring the drive back up. If Laos was a dog that could NOT recover from corrections of this level, we would not be training him this way.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I don't see anything in the video that would make me go "yikes" and I definitely don't see anything close to "hostility towards the dog" there


My thoughts exactly.. Nor is there a lot of compulsion. And in some of it, the handler is trying to wait the dog out.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't see why you feel the need to defend yourself either you obviously have people who support how you train. Its your choice


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

First, I want to say this: Lynn....you don't notice those bugs? Really?

As for the rest, you feel the need to defend yourself because the first post put you on the defensive. It would have had that effect on lots of people.

Of course, you have to correct a dog in protection. Unless, the dog is not in drive, has no real desire to bite, etc. The only thing I think would have to be considered is how much drive work a dog needs. If there is too much, then the dog learns to overload when he sees the helper and then you will be there correcting too much and control will always be an issue...but again, there has to be enough drive in the training. 

Also, Lynn pointed it out quite well in the beginning,. The dog is being handled by someone other than her. There is really no reason for the dog to listen to him and Lynn said the dog works better for her. So, there you have it. I have seen something similar with dogs that I have imported. They seem to be completely out of control if you work them too soon. Why? Because they do not recognize the new owner as their handler. So , there is less respect/desire to please that person. One thing to consider here is that MAYBE having the co-owner handle him is putting him higher than you want him. Just a thought, not trying to tell anyone how to train a dog that I don't have personal experience with.

I guess the raised voices are what is considered "hostility" toward the dog? A correction is not hostility, so, that must be it? I sure hope she/he wasn't talking about the helper being hostile but I guess anything is possible. One thing I have noticed about raised voices though is this. Some dogs will load more when the handler shouts. If you need more control, a quieter, calmer voice actually works better on some dogs. Not saying that is the case here, just throwing things out to facilitate a worthwhile discussion. because, so far, that aspect has been missing. 

Over the years, I have seen people try some pretty ridiculous ideas trying to control dogs without corrections. One of them was to wait the dog out, for the out. Let him just be there hanging until he finally lets the helper go and then reward it. I can't tell you how dumb that thinking is, even if the dog lets go. There are so many reasons why you ask the dog to out and comply immediately and it is not just about control. It is about the power/aggression the dog puts into the work. Then there are the other ideas of asking the dog to comply and if he runs to the helper, the helper drops the sleeve. lol. I have more than a couple of dogs who would just LOVE it if the helper did that but then we would have to stop the training to apply the bandages. People talk about teaching their pups to out and then think that will transfer to training in protection. Well, if it does and you never have to give a correction, your helper isn't working the dog right.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

See you don't have to defend yourself others do it for you...they even decide whose posts are worthwhile


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Question: At 5:23 you see Laos kind of power-crawl to the helper; the approach was different than the previous ones where he more or less just rammed straight into the helper. Do you see that as a sign of too much stress on the dog or is this just what you want to see at the end of this particular session ... sign that Laos is learning something new?


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Jason L said:


> Question: At 5:23 you see Laos kind of power-crawl to the helper; the approach was different than the previous ones where he more or less just rammed straight into the helper. Do you see that as a sign of too much stress on the dog or is this just what you want to see at the end of this particular session ... sign that Laos is learning something new?


Jason, my read on that behavior is that we just started "checking" Laos for the bark and hold when he's off the pole as he would always come in and take a bite. I would say that at this point it's the old "learning curve". What do some say, "it gets ugly before it gets better". If we didn't have to make these corrections, it would NOT be training now would it. 

Another thing worth discussing is ~ shouldn't we put pressure on a dog during protection at some point in time?? Schutzhund is, IMO, suppose to be about weeding out the weaker dogs. If a dog can't take that pressure #1 is he/she a breed worthy dog?, #2 is he/she really meant for the sport? With the #2 thought, this is where I have seen a lot of dogs still get their titles as the training in protection changes to fit the dog and not "test" that dog. I'm not against this as I'm not a breeder, but I do understand why some have a problem with helpers/decoys "getting a dog through a trial".


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

holland said:


> See you don't have to defend yourself others do it for you...they even decide whose posts are worthwhile


I'm not.. and Holland before I really understood Schutzhund for it's real purpose I had a very similar view point as you do of some of the training I use to watch.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Another thing worth discussing is ~ shouldn't we put pressure on a dog during protection at some point in time?? Schutzhund is, IMO, suppose to be about weeding out the weaker dogs. If a dog can't take that pressure #1 is he/she a breed worthy dog?, #2 is he/she really meant for the sport? With the #2 thought, this is where I have seen a lot of dogs still get their titles as the training in protection changes to fit the dog and not "test" that dog. I'm not against this as I'm not a breeder, but I do understand why some have a problem with helpers/decoys "getting a dog through a trial".


Karlo just had some pressure put on him this past protection session and it is a transitioning stage for him. 
He was worked to bring out aggression and it was the most stress he has had put on him. He recovered just fine and I can't wait to see what he brings to the next training session.
If we kept on working the way we have been, he would never grow and get more powerful. There is a time when you need to let the dog show what they can do.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lynn_P said:


> I would say that at this point it's the old "learning curve". What do some say, "it gets ugly before it gets better". If we didn't have to make these corrections, it would NOT be training now would it.


Lynn, that was my interpretation too. It seems to me that it was a sign that what you were doing was working, that Laos is learning something.

BTW, I agree with you and Jane. Protection should not be a "game" between the dog and helper. There should be some real antagonism between them, a genuine "dislike" that the dog needs to feel towards man.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Nice video. Laos was happy tail wagging the entire time. He obviously loves the work and has no resentment for a fair correction. Very nice. The people involved also exhibited an attitude very supportive of the dog and Laos appears to sense it.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Lynn_P said:


> He's not going to be a "sports dog"...


Why not?


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Fast said:


> Why not?


Fast, he's just not as biddable as my other SchH dog. I don't think he'll score high points in obedience...that's all. Maybe I should have said he's not going to be a "podium dog".


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

OK I get that. But he looks great in C phase!


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I think the dog looks good... I never meant to personally offend anyone... and Lynn I apologize if I did, was just commenting on the video... but the dog is cool. He does have some of the compulsive behaviors that I see also... I guess I got lucky with Cullen. Obedience is shabby, but he IS only 8 months.. though in Protection ( hey.. even IN obedience when he's being a typical teenager) I correct with a little pop on the leash with a wide flat.. and that is all it takes. in protection training, he will go into full crazy mode when he needs to, then carry the sleeve back, do this thing, then come to the side and lay in my lap and chill.. My trainer says that if things continue, we should never need a prong with him... 

I will say that... I am a little standoffish about the more " violent " training, because the first place I went was so horrible, that 16 month old dogs that went for the sleeve early, or didn't heel perfectly when the helper was running around... got hit to the bleeding point, and so I guess I always wonder how bad it really gets.. that place was bad enough that I was turned off of Schutzhund for a while completely.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

VaBeach Family ~ believe me I've seen some horrible training also and there are those that will take corrections and/or compulsion to the extreme. I personally can't train that way if it was all and only compulsion. Also, if you knew me well you would know that I love my dogs and I would never let anyone harm them. I did not take offense, I just wanted to explain why I wasn't handling my dog. It's killing me not to be involved in his training 100% presently though I hope that changes within the next couple of weeks. I have had to walk away from watching some training that I would consider borderline brutal and unfair. 

This thread was opened up for some discussion and with discussing training methods there will always be debate and disagreement. We are all individuals and should respect one another regardless of the difference.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I guess I am a little late to the discussion here. I will say that I am at a complete loss as to what to say to "Holland" or "VABeach". I was there and I watched the video, and I simply do not see where there is any "violence" or "hostility" towards poor ol' Laos. In my opinion this sort of training is a lot of fun for all involved; helper, dog and handler(s). Not once was the dog stressed, or worried; making a dog crazy (too crazy in my opinion, but if that's what they want then that's what they get) is just fun. I truly wonder sometimes if people who post such things have ever seen a dog who is "stressed". During protection there are three easy ways to see stress: ears, tail and grip....watch the video again and tell me where the dog is stressed. 
You know I trained with folks whose idea of success with a dog was nothing short of being on the podium at WUSV. When you watch very good dogs come out on the protection field with their tail between their legs or refuse to go into the blind because of what has been done there, then you can talk about a dog being "stressed". 

P.S., I have been away from here for awhile. Anybody miss me?.... No? Didn't think so.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> P.S., I have been away from here for awhile. Anybody miss me?.... No? Didn't think so.


I noticed that you were gone for a while. Glad you are back, it is alway interesting reading your posts.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Fast said:


> OK I get that. But he looks great in C phase!


Thanks.. the biggest problem with this dog I believe will be maintaining control in protection.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> I truly wonder sometimes if people who post such things have ever seen a dog who is "stressed". During protection there are three easy ways to see stress: ears, tail and grip....watch the video again and tell me where the dog is stressed.


I agree with this. When it comes to correction, you really have to look at the dog and not so much at the correction in and of itself.

I've seen Border Collies react a lot worse to a loud "NO!!!" in Dottie's agility club than a GSD to a hard prong correction in SchH. What's catastrophic for one dog may be completely ho-hum to another ... depending on the dog's temperament, his hardness, and what state of mind he is in when he receives the correction.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Jason L said:


> I don't see anything in the video that would make me go "yikes" and I definitely don't see anything close to "hostility towards the dog" there.


I have not finished reading this thread but this comment I agree with.

Nothing here looks abusive to me at all.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Well.....that is the first video I have ever watched of that kind of training and I wish I was in a country where I could take my dog to see if she was capable of this protection. I would love to work with a dog like that.

Can I ask a real newbie ?? ;

Can the dude with his arm in the protection sleeve approach Laos in the "off season " i.e; when you are not training ? Or does the dog remember that trainer whipping him and does that set it off again ? 

Anyways....that is one impressive dog.

ps ; love the trainers big burp at 5;03 LMFAO


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Today is the first that I saw the video...I think that somebody said on video he is 22 months. He is very nice dog and though he is high in drive in protection, you could see where he could cap his drive in certain instances when pushed. This dog at 3 years will have most of these issues in that video behund him and will be a lot of fun to participate with. Good Luck....nice dog!!
As for the training, I look at the dog and the response of the dog to training to see if it fits. This training was very good for this dog and did not reflect in the dog going down in drive or enthusiam. Its about the dog and it looked like the dog would return if the DOG was given the choice.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Thanks.. he's a nice dog... 

He blew out his ACL and will be having TPLO surgery next month. Hopefully after six months, he'll be back out on the field. Helper told me "I'm not going to be the first one to give him a bite once he returns"...


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Lynn_P said:


> Helper told me "I'm not going to be the first one to give him a bite once he returns"...


:rofl: Don't blame him!!! :rofl:


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