# Knocking my head against...........



## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

the wall ! :help:

I signed my 2 girls up at the same time for classes & while the pup does a tiny bit of whining, my older girl drives me nuts!!! 

She is getting worse with age & just cannot settle. I tried covering her, giving her yummy bones, etc while waiting her turn. No barking (TG), but anxious whines.

She just does not seem to be able to just settle. When I have her out on lead, she has a hard time holding a down for any length of time. It's always a battle with her.  I am stumped what to do?

I have to get at her even in the car while going to class when she starts to whine. She is the only 1 out of my 4 that hardly lays while driving & whines here & there. She will lay for brief periods once worked.

She has seemed to have got more anxious to go in the ring at a show & lately has been way off. I have runs where she has been on it, but lately she has been stressing or something, not sure?  She has been going around equipment, watching the judge, & doing way off things.

She is on it at home. At class doing good when running her. She at times goes around things, but NOT like at the show lately. It's like I have all play & focus before going in & once in, do a few things, she is off, I try to get her back on it, & lose her. I have to work a bit, but do gain her back & try to finish. I end on a happy note.... 

For the first time this past weekend we were over course time in std & also buzzed off the course one run. This has never happened. 

She has been off at the last 2 shows & driving me nutso in class waiting her turn.

:help: :help: :help: :help:


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Your missing obstacle problems sound very much like stress issues. I have some questions  What do you do in class when she misses an obstacle? Is it always the same obstacle or random ones? What do you do at trials? Is her going over time that she's slowing down, wandering off or taking lots of tries to do certain obstacles? What aspects of agility does she like most? What does she like least? When did these problems start?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

AgileGSD said:


> Your missing obstacle problems sound very much like stress issues. I have some questions  What do you do in class when she misses an obstacle? Is it always the same obstacle or random ones? What do you do at trials? Is her going over time that she's slowing down, wandering off or taking lots of tries to do certain obstacles? What aspects of agility does she like most? What does she like least? When did these problems start?


Hello, thanks fo replying back. 

Not always the same equipment. This last show she was really off. She has seemed to be more nibby checking things out at shows & a tad at class, but not as bad. Also with acting a bit freaked when judge walks around or people before starting.

If she goes around, I try to stay up beat, clap my hands, say here, get her back to do the piece of equipment & get movin on. This may take a few tries lately. 

This has seemed to get worse our first trial back in Feb. Was only out of loop from Nov till then. Our time was effected because of wandering & mainly redoing the obstacle.

Not sure on best & least liked obstacle? She seems to do all about the same, some a tad faster.
Her weaves are much faster at home than at class & esp at a show. I have close to same as show, metal, 12 of them, my spacing is off though, 22".

Jumping she does smooth & good when she does. Aframe, right up. Just not sure what she would least like? Maybe walk, not super fast over it, but she has had bad experiences so, a bit cautious on it. She has never been a crazy drive agility dog. She starts to shut down when she makes a mistake & you have her redo. I will try to get a video up when she was on vs last show when so off.

I am just stumped as she sailed right through novice & we have been stuck in open std for a good while. She is really messing up this course worse than jumpers. I feel if I keep moving her fast, she does better. I have been going back having her wait on contacts, which not sure if greastest to do.

He just learning to settle, relax, chill, etc may help, not sure.
Class is driving me nuts. She is a go, go, go girlie at 8 & always has been busy. Your arm will fall off before she will stop fetching. She is busy....

I feel she loves to do, but getting stressed more so than ever lately.

Thanks much for any help or advice.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

BTW, when playing in agility, I have kept it FUN & no corrections. I have seen others do in classes. I also see their dogs doing just to do & not having fun. I have tried as hard as possible to keep fun. If mistake, redo till we get it & then shower with treats, clicks, etc.

Sable is my very first dog, GSD, agility dog, learning dog, etc. We have came together more as a team through agility. If she would stay focused, I feel she would be a awesome girl.
I did not start doing anything with her till she was 4 so, not her fault. I keep doing games, playing, trying to do focus work with her. She has got much better, but all out the window on course lately.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Lots of looks, little response. 
I appreciate any suggestions or advice. 

Thanks much......


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

Not sure if this would help but have you tried one of those Thunder shirts?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions.  Her anxious whining in the car at times & big time in class reminds me of the dogs on the AP show K9 Cops, but not at that barking level, but amped, busy, & just cannot chill.

I gotta give her credit, when she has been on in reg & preferred runs, she has got 1st or 2nd place.  Just not focused fast like MLR girlie Glory.  Hoping Skyrah will be more like this.


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

I agree it sounds like a stress response, especially since it's a new set of behaviours. It might be a good idea to stop trialling for a while, and work on helping her have fun.

Maybe use class time to bring out the tug and treats, and move back your reward criteria substantially. Really work on ways to set her up to succeed. Literally throw a party if she does the obstacle you asked.

Also pick up a copy of Control Unleashed. Get her all excited and wound up, and then walk into the ring area, and when she starts to shut down, play GMAB. One of the ways you could increase the threshold for her is if you can take her to trials and play CU games near the ring (if trials in your area allow un-entered dogs, some do some don't).

Can you video a session, and/or get someone else to watch you work her, and make suggestions on how to handle the off-coursing differently? It's sure easy to get frustrated and have our dogs know - and the sensitive ones take it personally. Maybe just changing tone of voice or some body language can help prevent shutting down. Watching video might also help you identify handling issues - maybe she's off-coursing because she thinks that's what you're telling her to do.


I don't know - just some of my thoughts.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Stellae, Thanks much, I agree. She takes it to heart like most GSDs, they do not like to make a mistake. I try to stay upbeat, but sure she is on to me.

All I can think, 3 days before this show, worse one ever, she slipped going up the Aframe & skidded across her right shoulder area at home. While she limped just a bit & aspirin for a couple days, she seemed ok. She is a tough girl & hard to take her down. Maybe that was an issue more than I thought.

I would luv some tips at class to get her to chill while working the pup.  Covering isn't helping. Wish she would settle. Like I said, TG no barking, but whining is enough.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

LuvourGSDs said:


> I would luv some tips at class to get her to chill while working the pup.  Covering isn't helping. Wish she would settle. Like I said, TG no barking, but whining is enough.


If covering her crate isn't working, then perhaps you can switch to treating in the crate. There's probably a good amount of people at the facility while you're training, right? Maybe you could set up a sign and bowl of food noting to throw a treat in her crate if she's being quite. There's also a manners minder (though I've never used one).


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Yea, IF only she would be calm enough to treat. 
I do reward for good. We are working on this one with her being grumpy when others come near her crate. This also has got worse at shows. I now cover when I am not around.

She does not whine at the shows, just class b/c I am playing with puppy.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Lots of looks, little response.
> I appreciate any suggestions or advice.
> 
> Thanks much......


 Sorry had to go to work 



LuvourGSDs said:


> Hello, thanks fo replying back.
> 
> Not always the same equipment. This last show she was really off. She has seemed to be more nibby checking things out at shows & a tad at class, but not as bad. Also with acting a bit freaked when judge walks around or people before starting.


 Being "nibby" during a run is generally a sign of stress and/or lack of engagement. If your dog is engaged and happy, they won't notice stuff that is distracting or things that are scary - they're too busy moving! The more stressed they get, the more they lose focus and the more they lose focus the more they notice things.

I think you answer you're own question a little bit here without realizing it...



LuvourGSDs said:


> She has never been a crazy drive agility dog. *She starts to shut down when she makes a mistake & you have her redo.* I will try to get a video up when she was on vs last show when so off.





LuvourGSDs said:


> If she goes around, I try to stay up beat, *clap my hands, say here, get her back to do the piece of equipment & get movin on. This may take a few tries lately. *





LuvourGSDs said:


> BTW, when playing in agility, I have kept it FUN & no corrections. I have seen others do in classes. I also see their dogs doing just to do & not having fun. I have tried as hard as possible to keep fun. *If mistake, redo till we get it & then shower with treats, clicks, etc.*


 One of the most demotivating things you can do with many dogs is to stop and fix mistakes. You're running along with your dog, your dog misses an obstacle or has a hard time with a sequence and you stop forward motion and call the dog back to you. Then keep trying and trying until you get it right then go on again. Many dogs, like you's find redo's stressful. To many dogs, this is acts much like a correction. It also teaches dogs that agility should be done slowly and carefully because you're owner will randomly stop and call you back. To many dogs, this is really much like a correction. 

So I'd encourage you to give up on this redoing stuff (easier said than done LOL people so want to try and try until they get it right) and just...run  If your dog misses an obstacle, just keep going. Obstacle misses are often due to just a handful of things: poor communication (you didn't tell the dog properly or quickly enough), not enough skills for the exercise (dog isn't trained to the level to get the tricky approach or to do X while you do Y) or stress. None of those things can be improved with redo's. If there is a tricky sequence at class that you really want to get right and don't, keep going for at least a few obstacles, reward your dog and then go back and try again. If you don't get it the second try, still make sure you do several obstacles more and reward your dog. Consider then if the sequence is beyond your skill level or your dog's level of training and if so, do some more work away from agility class to improve on skills. 

The other thing is I probably wouldn't suggest working through Control Unleashed. I think it's a good program but not what I'd say your dog needs. Your dog doesn't need work on control, she needs work on her "on switch". I would teach her triggers for being "up" and try to use them for agility. Teach her to bark at you on command, preferably for a toy if she likes toys then ask her to bark before you run her in agility. Barking really seems to help rev up dogs who need to work on enthusiasm.

Also use the flyball trick of conditioning your dog to a cue to rev up and that fun is about to start. In flyball, dogs are conditioned to their handlers holding them back (holding, pushing back usually makes dogs want to go forward) and saying "ready, ready, ready...go!". You can teach this at home by starting with something your dog loves - a favorite toy or super, high value treat (I'm talking the treat your dog loves most above all else). Toss the toy or treat while holding back on your dog's collar saying "ready...ready...ready". When you feel your dog start to pull forward, let go as you say "Go!" or "Get'it!". Over time, hold back a little longer, a little longer, a little longer. It shouldn't take long before you see an increase in her desire to go when you set her up like this. Once she's really, really excited...you can start using a low jump (if you don't have one, rig one up! a broom stick and some bricks or cement blocks or paint cans or later chairs can work nicely  with the same set up. You can add more jumps or tunnels as she gets more enthusiastic. Then transfer this to class at the start time - pull or push back on her "ready....ready....GO!!" as you take off running. For now, forget about start line stays and just run with her it's more fun that way 

Another important factor is that you should not be "begging" her to work with you - she should be begging you to work! By this I mean, if she starts to get stress-y or shut down or seems disinterested in running don't call her, clap your hands, bribe her, etc to get her back to you. If she shuts down, just take her off course, give her a rest and try again later with something very easy, quick and rewarding. Instead of worrying about getting her back to you, try to make sure she's successful more often than not, even if it means going back to working short sequences with more rewards. If this happens at a trial, excuse yourself from the ring. Hard as that is and as much as it's tempting to try to "save the Q", it is better long term if you stop allowing your dog to practice being stressy about agility or worried at trials. If your dog has a favorite obstacle that she absolutely loves and will always do no matter what, you can sometimes use that to get her over stress too. But only if she will always do it without you begging. 

It isn't all that uncommon for dogs to get through Novice then get stuck, especially if they lacked in foundation or have drive/engagement or stress issues. Open courses are more difficult and for dogs who have stress issues, difficulty can make a difference in their attitude. Especially if the course has a lot of changes in direction - turns seem to demotivate a lot of dogs but can be taught to be fun: Famous cik and cap training). You're also allowed fewer mistakes, which makes it harder to be successful. I'd suggest holding off on trialing for a couple months or so, until you get her attitude up in training classes. 

I think that's it for now LOL


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh my do I understand your problem with the whining. Sasha would go nuts in class, not barking, just crying. She wanted to play with the other dogs so bad that she was obnoxious. What worked for us (to a degree...it's still a work in progress lol) was heavily exercising her the hour and a half before class, not feeding her before class so that she was hungry enough to really really want the treat badly, giving her a loud "ah-ah!" when she was being loud (and occasionally following it by holding her mouth shut -not necessarily recommending this, but it did get her attention), having her understand what was taught 100% by the time we got to the next class was helpful, and also keeping her engaged even when we were in between training. Because she was so distracted during class I also would do things like when we were in a down stay I'd occasionally say "Look at me" or I'd reinforce the stay command just to make sure she stayed focused on the task at hand and not what the other dogs were doing.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

As for the whining while you're working the puppy - not entirely a bad thing. Competition can sometimes build enthusiasm  If you really can't stand it, I would probably just suggest crating in a separate room or your car. Agility should be a time for fun, not a time for worrying about enforcing crate manners. Also if she dislikes dogs by her crate, that can be affecting her stress levels while running as well.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

AgileGSD, THANKS SOOOOOOO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME REPLYING. I am on my phone so, will reply later. 

Thanks for your time & great points you brought to my attention.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

AgileGSD, On computer now & re-read your awesome info & I thank you SO very, very much for sharing it. 

We are entered for a 2 day trial in Apr & nothing back in our area till Sept. 
I may, just may do a 1 day trial out of this area in July if she is a bit better in Apr.

I feel since I went back to train with more precision, I have lost her to a degree.  I will try as you suggested.  Sounds great & just what I needed to hear.  Hoping this will help her have fun again.

I have been doing the ready deal, she has no problem getting amped at home or class, just the shows lately.

How about at a show? Do NOT redo & just keeping running if she misses an obstacle? I have wondered about her eyes? She seems fine, but we seen her do something funky, but then seen another dog do so, thought maybe not her. I directed her to the tunnel after a jump & she went left of it, then back right, bumped her head & then in............. 

I have felt it has been me & my handling because god knows I need it, lol
A gal said, no, you are doing fine, she is just shutting down.  Prob because of the redos.......

I will try to post a video of our aweful run........

Have people sayin, not sure what's up, but not Sable & how she normally runs. 
We have 1 leg left in Open JJW & we have not even got 1 leg yet in Open Std. She blew right through Novice Std.  I find if we keep moving fast like in JWW, she is on it better. 

Thanks again........ will try to load the video.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LuvourGSDs said:


> AgileGSD, On computer now & re-read your awesome info & I thank you SO very, very much for sharing it.


 Keep us updated on your progress! I really hope that you get Sable back to running like her old self...or maybe even better! 

We are entered for a 2 day trial in Apr & nothing back in our area till Sept. 
I may, just may do a 1 day trial out of this area in July if she is a bit better in Apr.



LuvourGSDs said:


> I have been doing the ready deal, she has no problem getting amped at home or class, just the shows lately.
> 
> How about at a show? Do NOT redo & just keeping running if she misses an obstacle? I have wondered about her eyes? She seems fine, but we seen her do something funky, but then seen another dog do so, thought maybe not her. I directed her to the tunnel after a jump & she went left of it, then back right, bumped her head & then in.............


 I definitely would not redo at trials, since her stress issues sound like they are worse there than anywhere else. Think of your upcoming trial as a chance to try to help her see trials as fun again and have no further expectations than that. I don't think you'll have trouble getting your titles once you get through this stress issue, so don't worry about "saving the Q". Just run 

It could be her eyes I suppose but if she was having serious vision issues, I think you'd notice in every day life. 



LuvourGSDs said:


> I have felt it has been me & my handling because god knows I need it, lol
> A gal said, no, you are doing fine, she is just shutting down.  Prob because of the redos.......
> 
> I will try to post a video of our aweful run........
> ...


 Good luck! Do you have any video of her running in Novice?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Both of you know way more about agility than I do, but I had to comment about this:



AgileGSD said:


> The other thing is I probably wouldn't suggest working through Control Unleashed. I think it's a good program but not what I'd say your dog needs. Your dog doesn't need work on control, she needs work on her "on switch".


Control Unleashed is not just for teaching dogs off leash control. It's for dogs who are under-stimulated and have problems remaining engaged with their owner as well as dogs that become over-stimulated. 



> Another important factor is that you should not be "begging" her to work with you - she should be begging you to work!


One CU game that comes to mind is "Give Me A Break". The goal of the GMAB game is to get the dog asking YOU to keep working rather than you having to work to keep the dog's focus. 

You do very short, (like 15 seconds) very highly reinforced training sessions, (you want to use a lot of treats for this) like some heeling, a series of fast sits or downs, some hand targeting, or you could play with a tug or something instead, then you dismiss the dog, turn around and walk a short distance away. Sit in a chair and ignore her. If she does not come back after the short break, (a minute or less) you go to her and restart the game. If she comes back before the end of the break, immediately jump out of your chair and start the game again. You want to do something really fast, fun, and upbeat, something she loves doing, and then stop while she's still interested.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Debbie, Thanks for posting that. 

I will try to dig up some videos later. Have to upload some to youtube, the current yucky, downhill run. 

Thanks again, much appreciated.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Control Unleashed is not just for teaching dogs off leash control. It's for dogs who are under-stimulated and have problems remaining engaged with their owner as well as dogs that become over-stimulated.


 I'm pretty familiar with the program and think there is a time and place for it. I do like the idea of Look at That, There's a Dog in Your Face, etc. However when looking at the program overall, it works very hard on the dog's "off switch", on calmness and controlled responses. So it just wouldn't be my first choice in this scenario. My choice would be to work on the dog's on switch instead. 

Another factor is that you need props and other dogs for a lot of the CU exercises beyond the first couple weeks. It is designed to be an eight week course and most of that 8 weeks is spent focusing on control in some way or another. Gradually increasing the difficulty by having dogs work parallel to each other, doing "box work" with ring gating, etc. It's not an easy program for people to pursue alone.

All that said, it's a good book to have in your training library


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> I'm pretty familiar with the program and think there is a time and place for it. I do like the idea of Look at That, There's a Dog in Your Face, etc. However when looking at the program overall, it works very hard on the dog's "off switch", on calmness and controlled responses. So it just wouldn't be my first choice in this scenario. My choice would be to work on the dog's on switch instead.
> 
> Another factor is that you need props and other dogs for a lot of the CU exercises beyond the first couple weeks. It is designed to be an eight week course and most of that 8 weeks is spent focusing on control in some way or another. Gradually increasing the difficulty by having dogs work parallel to each other, doing "box work" with ring gating, etc. It's not an easy program for people to pursue alone.
> 
> All that said, it's a good book to have in your training library


I'm interested in this perspective. While I agree the book is clearly set up as a guide for an 8+ week class, I've never taken that to mean I can't pick and choose exercises that might work for my dog/situation. Certainly most of the course is about being calm when they're panicked, but Give Me A Break is specifically an 'on switch' game. I think it could really help the OP as far as getting Sable to ASK to work. 

Is there a reason you wouldn't use this style of approach? I'm genuinely curious!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Stellae said:


> I'm interested in this perspective. While I agree the book is clearly set up as a guide for an 8+ week class, I've never taken that to mean I can't pick and choose exercises that might work for my dog/situation. Certainly most of the course is about being calm when they're panicked, but Give Me A Break is specifically an 'on switch' game. I think it could really help the OP as far as getting Sable to ASK to work.
> 
> Is there a reason you wouldn't use this style of approach? I'm genuinely curious!


 CU is set up as a progressive training program. I don't see an issue with adding certain CU games to other things (working on the dog's on switch, not redoing stuff, etc). I just don't think the CU program would be ideal for this dog because it isn't working on the dog's drive and enjoyment of agility. And she doesn't sound like she needs work on impulse control or an off switch. To me, that's what a lot of speed, distraction, stress issues in agility really boil down to - the dog needs to find agility fun or it will always be a struggle.


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