# Switching to home cooked



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm pretty sure LJ is allergic to sweet potatoes. She's allergic to so many other things, that I can't find a grain-free kibble she can eat. She's been eating a mix of TOTW salmon kibble and home cooked. She has EPI and she's a big, old girl. 

I need a book. I looked at Monica Segal's site, but I don't know which book or writings I should get. Any suggestions?

I do have Dr. Pitcairn's Natural Health for Dogs & Cats. 

I don't want to screw up and my vet isn't supportive. She doesn't believe in home cooked (or raw).


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Are you interested in cooked or raw or a combo? Any health issues that need dietary management other than the allergies? Do you know the allergens or know what foods do work?

I wrote a detailed post about how I create and balance my home made diets using the National Research Counsels or NRC guidelines. 

scroll up to the beginning of the post,
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=727693#Post727693

I would be happy to help you start if you wanted.

I haven't read Pitcairn's book, but hear that the info is very good but that the recipes are outdated in terms of ingredients used.

I have both Segal books and a few of the pamphlets. The first book k9kitchen is a good overview on diets in general and includes some raw meaty bone analysis. It also contains the old NRC guidelines and I hear she is updating it to reflect the recent changes, so there may be a new publication coming out- not exactly sure though.

Her other book optimal nutrition has very valuable information for treating disease with diets. It also has the new NRC guidelines, more raw meaty bone analysis and some recipes.

What both books fail to do is walk you through how to create a diet which sounds like what you are looking for specifically. Her yahoo group k9kitchen would be better suited for help building a diet and is free. 

The numbers you would need from the books I could help with or they would be available in NRCs publication which could be found in a university library perhaps.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I've been doing home cooked for years. Rafi currently eats a mix of kibble and home cooked with raw meat as the protein source. I actually use the Primal grinds b/c they are vitamin and mineral balanced so that makes the whole process that much easier. Plus they include ground up bones so I don't have to worry about the extra calcium. I cook a minimal amount of grain, sweet potatoes and potatoes and I add in raw pureed veggies like kale, parsley and carrots. 

I started out using Pitcairn's book and modified the recipe over the years as I got more comfortable. If I was starting from scratch I would buy this booklet: http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25_26&products_id=87

And maybe this one too, although I have a feeling there might be redundancy between the two (I don't have them--I'm just looking at her site):

http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25_26&products_id=94

I just wanted to add that I don't obsess on the nutritional analysis when feeding my animals. I don't think even the best kibbles provide optimal nutrition b/c they are highly processed. Fresh food is always better.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Monica's second book would be more helpful than her first. Pitcairn's recipes, I believe all have grains in them, I don't remember about Segal's -- hopefully I will get a chance to look later for you.

I've done all my dog's diet programs without vet support. You can do this. You might want to get on Monica's list and just start browsing some of the issues. You can make it as complicated as you want to -- I am not as technical and as picky as some, as I don't buy into the fact that these guidelines are feeding for optimal health. Getting some of the minerals and the calcium though you have to worry about a bit.

Sent you a pm.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks Natalie, Ruth, and Lisa. My biggest concern is calcium and minerals. And I don't want LJ to get any fatter. I would love to go with the Primal, but she doesn't digest anything raw very well. Too bad, it would have been easy.

She's allergic to the following:

sweet potatoes
eggs
soy bean
flax
barley
brewer's yeast
kelp
green peas
green beans
duck


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Eggs, sweet potatoes and duck--those are strange things to be allergic to! What about having Monica do some recipes for you? That way you don't have to worry about amounts. 

Before I used Primal I would save my (free range) eggshells and bake them at 325 for 15 minutes and then grind them to a very fine powder in a blender or coffee grinder. That's what I'd use for calcium. I doubt she's allergic to eggshells!









I have also done home cooked with cooked chicken and cooked beef. I followed the Pitcairn recipes and my dogs did great on them!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Are those allergies from a blood test or from trial and error with kibbles?

With an allegy to eggs, I would go with the calcium carbonate powder rather than eggshells.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Her allergy to eggs, soy bean, flax, barley, brewer's yeast, kelp, green peas, and duck were confirmed through a blood test. I had suspected that she was allergic to most of those items by feeding them. 

LJ has two spots on her upper lip that glow red and itch when she eats something she's allergic too.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

So did you look through Pitcairns book to see if a recipe would fit your needs or do you want to build your own diet? If you want to create your own what foods would you like to build the diet around? What does she like and what is affordable? Can you calculate the amount of calories she has been intaking so we have a caloric goal in mind?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Natalie, thank you for helping Lady Jane!

Just sending good thoughts to LJ the sweetie, hoping that she is doing well. My Grimm LOVED homecooked for a month when his tummy needed it. I like using a pressure cooker, as more of the vitamins and minerals tend to stay intact. I'm not explaining this right LOL! Anyway, BEST of luck to the wonderful Lady Jane!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomHer allergy to eggs, soy bean, flax, barley, brewer's yeast, kelp, green peas, and duck were confirmed through a blood test. I had suspected that she was allergic to most of those items by feeding them.
> 
> LJ has two spots on her upper lip that glow red and itch when she eats something she's allergic too.


That's a goofy list, which is why I asked.....duck, but none of the common proteins? barley, but not corn or wheat? Green beans? She's a goofy girl









So have you confirmed by feeding that the other proteins are okay -- chicken, turkey, beef, pork, lamb, etc?

Normally I like using a base of veggies, and not starches or grains, but it might be touch if there are those veggie allergies.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

That's my LJ - one big goofy girl!

Too much chicken/turkey and we have the itchies. She won't touch lamb or rabbit but does well with beef, pork, venison, and beaver.

I'm paranoid about cancer, so I'd like to keep the carbs low.

I want to apologize to everyone - I'm still really sick and just can't make my brain function.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Joanne, sending healing vibes to you, and to sweet Lady Jane Cobb, too. Really wishing good things for you, for your body, that you can feel better. LJ has the best Mom to be looking out for her diet! Homecooking absolutely rocks! You will get great advice here.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Check out William Cussick's book on diets for German shepherds. It worked for me when my pup was having food issues.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

How many calories and/or weight and activity level?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Thank you Patti.

Natalie, She eats 900 calories of kibble per day plus 300 of pork and maybe 30 in kale. She's old - not very active but stays "on duty" most of the day protecting us from evil kitties. She weighs 88 pounds.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowAnd maybe this one too, although I have a feeling there might be redundancy between the two (I don't have them--I'm just looking at her site):
> 
> http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25_26&products_id=94


The above is linking to Segals 'Home Feeding Primer'. I have that writing and dug it out to take a look at it as I couldn't remember what info it contained.

First thing I noticed was that the NRC guidelines contained within my copy, which was copyright 2004, are the old guidelines- they have since been updated. 

Before purchasing the writing I would email the author and ask if it has been updated to reflect the 2006 numbers. Other than that the steps she outlines are the same that I would use with either set of numbers so that info is still very much up to date. 

The six basic steps she outlines are, and I am paraphrasing here

1) Look at what the dog has been eating to identify foods that would work/not work to give you a starting place of what ingredients to use

2) Figure out how many calories a day your dog needs

3) Create a spreadsheet listing nutrients needed

4) Go to USDA database and search your ingredients and list their nutrients

5) Input NRCs numbers and compare

6) Learn how different foods provide different nutrients and learn how to make substitutions based on what the diets has too much or too little of

She then goes on the talk about nutrients in general, being aware of internet diets, talking to your vet, shopping for food etc.

The steps she outlines I talked about in more detail in the post I wrote and linked to above. One thing that the writing fails to do is speak about mineral interaction, she even comments that that is out of the scope of this particular writing, which is where I find I have the most to learn as the info is not as readily available as the rest. The mineral interactions that I do know that have importance I listed in my other post and learned from her yahoo group k9kitchen.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LJsMom, still thinking about what to add to the meat portion. The base veggie I use is green beans (I don't do grains or predominant starches other than what's in veggies), green beans are not an option in your case. Some folks will feed potatoes or oatmeal or the like. 

Do you have thoughts on what you would like to have included in the diet, sorta the basic philosophy? What do you want to add to the meat? You might have to experiment a bit. Are you thinking of sticking with predominantly kale? Why kale?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lisa, I'm thinking:

pork loin, beef (pot roast), salmon or mackerel, beef liver

white potatoes, butternut squash, carrots, kale

Why the kale? I've been making a couple pasta/soup dishes with kale, and LJ has always enjoyed the leftovers. (And I wonder why she's chunky.) Then I read this article in my local paper http://www.projo.com/lifebeat/content/fd-supermarket_02-04-09_3PCUGK7_v15.26339c6.html. "And talk about bang for the buck: A member of the cruciferous (cabbage) family, kale is loaded with vitamins C, A and K plus minerals and cancer-fighting phytonutrients. And all this nutrition comes with just 38 calories per cup."


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I saw that stuff about kale when I did a quick search. Pretty impressive. I know that raw kale is anti-thyroid (goitrigen?),but cooking is thought to decrease it's effect. So if there were A LOT of cooked kale, I might want to monitor the thyroid just a bit, until you were sure it was okay. Otherwise, it's an amazing food. 

Mine do great on the green and yellow squashes, haven't tried the others. Carrots have a lot of natural sugars in them, you probably don't need to feed that many of them - if sweet potatoes are the problem, carrots might make her itchy. I feed just a bit of them. 


I feed pretty much the same thing for dinners, but rotate my breakfasts because each of my dogs have only one thing that they tolerate really well, and I use that for their dinner. My breakfast feeding is smaller than my dinner. 

If she does well on regular potatoes, that can be your base, either for breakfast or for both meals. Sometimes you have to play with it. After reading Lauri's post that always talk about overfeeding, I found that Max did better with less rather than with more. Didn't matter so much for Indy, but she's not a GSD. 
I've been avoiding my real computer for days (I'll have to work when I finally get on it), but I prefer to use the Calcium Carbonate powder and nothing else that adds phosphorous - they seem to do better on it. The NOW brand has a powder that I use. 

Tonight I have to work, I for sure will get the links then.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lisa, when you say "base", do you mean I'd be feeding more potatoes than meat?

Thanks for the info on kale being anti-thyroid - LJ does take soloxine.

No rush on the links. My fever is gone but I still can't drive.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Please take good care of yourself, Joanne. Lady Jane has the best Mom in the world researching and formulating her gourmet mealplans.. of course she will be healthier and well. Prayers and good thoughts for both you and Lady Jane!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

You may be interested in William Cissick's information on home cooked diets for German shepherds. I'm using one of his reciepts and it is working great.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DocYou may be interested in William Cissick's information on home cooked diets for German shepherds. I'm using one of his reciepts and it is working great.


Just curiuos, what does his diet consist of?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomLisa, when you say "base", do you mean I'd be feeding more potatoes than meat?
> 
> Thanks for the info on kale being anti-thyroid - LJ does take soloxine.
> 
> No rush on the links. My fever is gone but I still can't drive.


By base, I mean the main thing that you feed in addition to the meat. Many dogs do great with variety, but sensitive allergy types often do better with more consistency.

I"m glad that you are getting better


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

LJ hasn't had kibble in a week. For the first time the two spots on her lips aren't inflamed. She's had that problem since she was puppy. She appears very content with life. I discovered that I like beef liver. It smelled so good while I was cooking it, so I tried it. She's such a good eater - she even had some collard greens tonight.

Thanks for all the help!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Forgot to mention that her perpetual eye boogers and snotty nose have cleared up too!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Liver is a great food, I don't like it though!!

I really can't say enough about a homeprepared diet. My dogs always start declining in some way whenever I give any processed food.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Great news for LJ!

Beef liver is a great addition for copper- glad to hear you both like it!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

All was fantastic until last Wednesday when LJ developed watery poop and stinky farts. Thursday afternoon the vet prescribed metronidazole. I would have preferred Tylan powder but she doesn't stock it, doesn't prescribe it. I need to order some online because I'm not crazy about the metronidazole. So I've been doing the bland diet (which I think may be counterproductive), upping the probiotics, and using slippery elm. At 3 AM she produced an almost perfect poop. 

The books and brochures from Monica Segal arrived. After studying them I suspect that I (1) was over feeding her and (2) feeding her too much fiber because silly me, didn't peel the potatoes and when she got gassy I thought maybe I should give her rice instead - brown rice - which I now know can be hard to digest. The other really stupid thing that I did - I added some pure maple syrup to her butternut squash. 

I spent most of today (and I do mean most) planning out a new diet. I really wanted to learn how to do it myself. Natalie was very generous and prepared LJ's original excel sheets. I just plugged the new info into Natalie's sheet and it still took me ALL day. 

So here's my question - do I continue with the bland diet? Its hamburger and white rice. She hates it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

If the meds are kicking in, I would try a small meal of her regular food and see how that goes.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomAll was fantastic until last Wednesday


So if things were going well for a week then went south I would back off to where you were a week ago in terms of ingredients and supplements. If there was things you added, take them away and slowly reintroduce them one at a time.



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomI suspect that I (1) was over feeding her and (2) feeding her too much fiber


Could be either or could be too much fat or could be a food allergy/sensitivity since that was the health issue that drove you to start homecooking to begin with. Backing off and going more slowly might indicate what's going on.



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomI spent most of today (and I do mean most) planning out a new diet.


What things are you changing? Ingredients, quantities or both? It gets faster with practice.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Collard greens will clean any thing out! I think I would leave them out of the diet. Sounds like too much variety and too much quantity. How much are you feeding?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Poop update: LJ had what started as formed – but a little soft – poop which ended green and mucus-y. We have an appointment with the vet Friday morning. 

From the start she has been gassy, but normal poops until last week. I suspected overfeeding because she would take a big nap after eating. Lately she’s been rumbling – like when we first got her and her EPI wasn’t under control.

Which got me thinking. Maybe the plant based enzymes aren’t working with her home prepared diet? I still have some Viocase, so I mixed it in with her meat/rice and let it sit for 30 minutes. No rumbling. 

The collard greens were a one-time thing, just a couple tablespoons.

Her cooked weekly diet:

14 oz carrots
18 oz butternut squash
21 oz kale
56 oz white potato
6 oz salmon
35 oz pork loin
42 oz beef roast
5 oz chicken liver
4 oz beef liver
plus bone meal and supplements
8500 calories

I think because she’s old and large and not very active, I need to reduce the calories. 

I would like to change her diet to:

butternut squash
yellow squash - zucchini
salmon
pork loin
beef liver 

And reduce her calories to about 7000.

How does this sound?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Three hours since dinner and no gas or rumblings.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I've had wonderful results using the following
Hamburger
Ground Chicken w/ skin
yellow squash
brocolli
Cabbage
Carrots
Potatoes
whole wheat bread
cheese 
garlic

My pup lickedthe bowl clean at every feeding - and solid poops!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think in the beginning, the simplest "menu" for the week, the better. After you see how that goes, then you can start modifying it. 

I do think that if enzymes are needed, then the best ones to use are the pork based enzymes as the main enzymes.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Breakfast got ugly today. I mixed up some of LJ's pork, rice, and pork-based enzymes. She didn't want to eat it. I was hand feeding her. I stepped out of the room to get a paper towel and I heard growling. She had taken over Steel's bowl of kibble. So I caved and gave her her own bowl of kibble with enzymes.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Well first read I thought maybe she didn't like the pork enzymes in her meal, but if she ate the kibble with the pork enzymes then I don't know. Why do you think she didn't want to eat her meal? Not liking the rice? Just likes kibble?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

In the past, after a bout of stomach distress, she won't eat whatever she had been eating. She's so smart. She must know that it made her sick.

I figure we'll do the kibble for a few days and then start the transition back to home prepared.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Another thing is she has "texture" issues. She doesn't like mushy food. The next time I cook for her I will leave everything in small chunks because when I add the enzymes - it really gets mushy.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

She's much better. Her poops are still a little soft but - no stinky smell. I should have realized 2 weeks ago that she was having an EPI problem. Its just amazing what the right enzymes can do.

This morning I put both kibble and home cooked on her plate. She left the kibble.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMom.....This morning I put both kibble and home cooked on her plate. She left the kibble.


My dogs would have eaten both, the little piggies that they are


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Great news Joanne!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Checking in and wondering how LJ is?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

She is much better Natalie! Her poo starts out bouncing but ends mushy. Last week I had the giardia antigen run and she's negative. Still doing a very limited diet of pork, rice, and pumpkin. Tonight I'm going to add a little squash and see how that goes. Her Pancrezyme arrived Monday in time for her dinner. She does much better on that than the Viokase. She is feeding herself, which is a major improvement.

I am having a problem with the bone meal. She wants to eat grass shortly after eating. I also had the same result with calcium. I can't go the egg shell route because she is very allergic to eggs. I'm only giving her 1/8 of a teaspoon.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Go easy on the squash. That gives Rafi the runs.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomI am having a problem with the bone meal. She wants to eat grass shortly after eating. I also had the same result with calcium. I can't go the egg shell route because she is very allergic to eggs. I'm only giving her 1/8 of a teaspoon.


So your saying that she only wants to eat the grass after you add the bone meal or calcium supplement? So your thinking that it is upsetting her body and that's why she wants the grass? 

Also since LJ is older and has eaten kibble, which is well supplemented with vitamins and minerals, for a long time (maybe her whole life?) her nutrient reserves are high. So don't be too concerned with getting all that right to start, you have some time and wiggle room, if she's missing something her body will draw upon her reserves for now.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowGo easy on the squash. That gives Rafi the runs.


Oh crap (hopefully not literally). I only gave her an ounce of summer squash.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559So your saying that she only wants to eat the grass after you add the bone meal or calcium supplement? So your thinking that it is upsetting her body and that's why she wants the grass?


Yes, the problem is only after a meal with the bone meal or calcium. And yes, she's been fed kibble all her life.

Thank you. I feel better - I won't stress about it.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Joanne,

I asked the folks at k9kitchen re your calcium dilemma b/c they have been so knowledgeable and helpful to me and here's their reply which I received permission to cross post to here:

The original post was by another member to which Caroline replied the following and then I tagged my questions re your situation to the response she originally gave

"----It might just be the type of calcium that's bothering her and have nothing to do with dairy or preservatives. Calcium comes in many forms such as calcium carbonate, calcium lactate, calcium citrate, calcium gluconate, etc. My last dog (who had many, many food and supplement sensitivities) took calcium carbonate for quite a while but eventually became intolerant of it. I switched her over to calcium citrate and she had no further problems. I'd check what type of calcium is in the Vitamin Shoppe one you're using and try a different type.

Natalie wrote:
> Would your advice about switching forms still apply to this situation? Any other info that could help?

----Yes, it's worth a try.  I assume your friend took the bonemeal and the calcium out of the diet separately so as to determine the dog is bothered by both?

As mentioned, I had to switch Maggie from calcium carbonate to calcium citrate, had to do the same with Dresden. I also had to switch Maggie from bonemeal to dicalcium phosphate.

Dicalcium phosphate and calcium citrate (as well as other forms of calcium) have differing amounts of elemental calcium and phosphorus, so be sure to check how much is in whatever you choose to try and refigure the amounts needed. Just a suggestion, I found it difficult to find dicalcium phosphate that had had an analysis done so I had exact calcium and phosphorus amounts to work with. The only person I know of who goes to this extreme is, you guessed it, Monica. LOL Her brand is available on her website.

I would introduce just one of the new supplements first, not both at once. Give one for about a week to make sure all is okay before adding the other.

I'm assuming that this is being added to a meal? If it's currently being added all in one meal, try dividing it between two.

> Also this dog is 13.5 years old and has eaten kibble her whole life. If it takes a bit to get this right is it okay due to mineral reserves being so high from the kibble years?

-----She should be fine.  I remember Maggie, who'd been kibble fed for five years, ate a totally unbalanced diet (an elimination diet) for 8 weeks. It then took me about another month to introduce all the supplements needed one by one. She didn't suffer any ill-effects.

Caroline (Moderator)"


Hope this helps!!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Thank you Natalie. I have the NOW Calcium Carbonate.

She has yet to have a totally normal poo. Starts out wonderful and then ends soft. 

I had been concerned about the amount of carbohydrates in the rice so I started to add the white potato back in (without skin this time). I did this last night and then again this morning. This morning she threw up her breakfast. Other than that, she seems fine, barking at cats. Maybe she can't eat potatoes.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Pumpkin gives my dogs terrible stools (loose at best), squash is fine, bone meal and calcium citrate are terrible for them. And each reacts to any grains or starches in their own special negative way. Bottom line, it could be anything









Have you experimented with meat and veggies only?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTHave you experimented with meat and veggies only?


No. That will be my next step. Starting at breakfast. Off to the store for some butternut squash. So far its the only vegetable that LJ does well with. 

She pooped before dinner and it was orange and green and slimy. To me that sounds like EPI/SIBO. 

I decided to play Dr. Mom with the dog. (I've been playing Dr. Mom with my kiddos and they are in their 20s and still alive...) I decided to give her Doxy (100 mg). I have a lot of them. They were prescribed for Steel in January but he couldn't take them. They should be pretty fresh.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Uh-oh, you are starting to sound like me. 

Just some trivia - important trivia, never use expired doxy, very bad for the kidneys. But if you got these in Jan, they should be fine, they have a long expire date. 

I know you probably know this, but be sure to give it with meals. 

What was the dosing instructions that they gave Steel? 100 mg twice a day? just curious, how much does he weigh?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I had read that expired doxy could be fatal. The expiration date on the bottle is Jan of 2010, but I'm going to throw them away when LJ is done with them. I don't want to risk it.

The dosage for Steel (78 lb) was 800 mg a day - but that was for Lyme. I looked up the regular dosing information and found 2.5 mg per poiund every 12 hours. She weighs 88 lbs., so I'm giving her 200 mg twice a day. Does that sound right? Is it too much?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think that's the same expire date of the ones I have here, but I have Bird Biotic









I think that's a good dose. 

I think you should start noticing something in about 4 days? I honestly don't remember. Do let us know!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm thrilled to report a near perfect poop. Not bouncing, but really good. Does Doxy work that fast? Still orange though - could that be from the butternut squash and pumpkin?

Time for a margarita...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The orange can be from food. 

The classic lyme response to doxy is a dramatic response within a couple of days. Indy always has a dramatic and quick response digestively. Max slower. It *could* be the doxy, it also has an antiinflammatory action. 

:cheers:


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

What great news for LJ!



> Originally Posted By: LisaTThe orange can be from food.


Agree. As long as you aren't seeing pieces of undigested food it's fine.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lady Jane isn't doing well today. Last night she had trouble walking, she kept stumbling. This morning, more of the same. She walks in circles. Head tilt when walking. I have her harness on. The vet will see her at 10:30. She did eat her breakfast and drink some water. Just in case it was a side effect of the doxy, I didn't give it to her today.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Did you look into what the side effects of doxy are to see if the symptoms fit? Has she ever taken it before?

I hope the vet is able to give you some answers. Let us know how it goes.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

That was the first thing I did. Then I double checked drug interactions on the Proin and Doxy. The goods - it wasn't the doxy and she can stay on it. And the vet didn't lecture me.

The verdict - a very mild case of vestibular disease. She has the brain lesion kind. The vet (not my usual, her father) told me not to freak out or panic because its not a stroke. He gave her an injection of dexamethasone (steriod) to reduce the inflammation. He sent us home with meclizine (antivert) tablets for nausea. I gave her one when we got home and she threw it and breakfast up. I think the ride in the car made her very nauseous. I have to wait until tonight to try again.

The vet approved of her supplement list and home cooked diet. He was impressed that she's as old as she is and doesn't need rimadyl. I told him its due to good food, supplements, and the chiropractor. AND MY FRIENDS HERE ON THIS BOARD!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Ok, I'm not sure its the brain lesion kind. I may have misunderstood. He said something about inflammation, nerve, and brain but said its what old dogs get. Starting to panic.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Natalie, I went back through her records and she's never taken Doxy before. I discovered that she has been treated for bacterial overgrowth several times.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I have never seen that reaction to Doxy before.

An overview:
http://www.marvistavet.net/html/body_vestibular_disease.html

Maybe time to check her thyroid?
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120715365/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
ETA: thyroid problems can exhibit with digestive issues, so maybe that is part of the reason you're having so much trouble with parts of the diet?

Maybe a visit to the chiro will help?
http://www.crvetcenter.com/vestibulardisease.htm

I'm so sorry Lady Jane is having this - it sounds scary. The good news is that the visit with the vet sounded like it went really well.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI'm so sorry Lady Jane is having this - it sounds scary. The good news is that the visit with the vet sounded like it went really well.


Ditto and I hope she improves soon!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Lady Jane had a totally normal poop today!! The Doxy really works.

I think she's doing better. The eye movements are slowing some. It was easier for her to get up for a pee an hour ago. Once she's up, she does a really fast trot, making it hard for me to hold onto her harness.

Her appetite hasn't been affected. She continues to eat like a little piggie.

She is hypothryroid and has been on medication for a year now. We have an appointment at the chiropractor this Friday. 

I spent yesterday afternoon going through her old records from the first vet plotting her blood work in excel. I discovered that she had a low normal T4 when she was 5 and was treated with Soloxine for 2 years. Only 2 years though. I also found numerous mentions of bacterial overgrowth.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomThe Doxy really work.



I swear, doxy is a wonder drug. I almost think that any dog that "ain't doin' right", for any reason, should almost try it. I only say that because I think there are lots of underying infections that go undiagnosed, and also, it acts as an anti-inflammatory and is safer than Rimadyl, etal., and in some cases it is also an anti-cancer med. I'm not one to be gung ho on meds, but this one has come to the rescue so many times for so many dogs....


How much does Lady Jane weigh, and what is her dosage of thryoid med? I don't understand that two-year deal? Interesting about the bacteria.


ETA: 88 lbs, I found the weight!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

She takes a total of 5 of the .3 mg Soloxine a day, divided between am and pm. Her T4 was re-checked last December and was in the upper end of the therapeutic range (4.7).


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The blood level is about right (6 hours post pill, right?)

Guideline is .10 mg/lb twice day, which puts her at .8 or .9 twice a day. Max at 75 lbs does best rounded down, at .7 twice day. 

Are you giving the thyroid pills within a couple of hours of any minerals, particularly calcium or iron?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh crap, yes I'm giving it with minerals - not calcium or iron - but other minerals.

And yes, 6 hours post pill.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Cussick's diet is heavy in potato but also uses hamburger and ground chicken. He throws in cabbage, broccoli, a little yellow squash, carrots. A little cheese, bread crumbs, and garlic.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The cabbage and broccoli are anti-thyroid, if there is too much in the diet.

Interesting overall on Cussik's diet. With so much potato, I wonder why the bread crumbs?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I've been reading up on the thyroid and medication. I had NO idea you were supposed to give it 30 minutes before a meal. I will start giving the minerals 4 hours after the Soloxine.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Most people (and vets) don't know. 

I often time it wrong for me *and* the dogs, but I do try. It's often hard to get it scheduled right.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

LJ's doing much better. For the first time since Sunday she's on duty. She came in from her potty and headed for her couch instead of her bed in the den - which means that I have to fight Steel for the dog bed in front of the couch.

She has soft poos again and wicked stinky gas. Could be the Antivert. Or it could that I've been giving her Doxy at the same time as her vitamins and minerals. I read that that is a no-no too.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Doxy is tough on the digestive system. I always gave it with meals, vitamins, minerals and all. From my experience, it produced stomach upset and perhaps vomiting .

I might suspect the Antivert, but I have no experience with it.


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