# Is it just ME or is this just nuts???



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok, so in my boredom last night, I decided to check out some GSD breeders online. I stumbled across this site. They are selling 4-6 month old pups with basic obedience training (sit, stay, come, & down) for $5000??? And 8-12mos with the next level of commands for $7000??? No showlines, working lines, titled pedigrees... Is it just me or is that just nuts that people are buying these puppies with the same level of basic obedience that I was able to train my pup for in less than a week? With no training experience whatsoever, I simply Youtubed and Googled training methods and went to work, and she now knows 8 commands. Do people not realize how intelligent this breed is???







Would you guys pay this much or am I missing something?? Lemme know what you think...

** URL removed by ADMIN**


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## [email protected] (Dec 9, 2009)

No, your not nuts. P.T. Barnum said "there's one born every minute.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

"we" wouldn't but some people would. Just like the web sites with "level 2 or 3 personal protection" dogs for 45K+. I could import QUITE the big name stud muffin from Germany for that amount of money. It is crazy what ignorant and naive people will pay for just for silly bragging rights for their next cocktail party.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

'There's a sucker born every minute'
-PT Barnum

*edit* someone beat me to the barnum quote while I was parusing their very messy website. Hmmm I have family near Petersham MA


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausIt is crazy what ignorant and naive people will pay for just for silly bragging rights for their next cocktail party.


Yup! That about sums it up!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The website was making me nauseous before I could even find pictures of the dogs.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThe website was making me nauseous before I could even find pictures of the dogs.


LOL. I know right?? Maybe all the florescent flashing colors are designed to hypnotize buyers into believing their making a good decision by buying one of these puppies??


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThe website was making me nauseous before I could even find pictures of the dogs.


Not only is it not a site I can look at for long, but I could not find any links to their adult dog; the sire and dam.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL Kaiya! Especially since they are _ old fashioned, long-haired, BIG dogs, trained by a professional trainer_. Whoohoo!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidLOL Kaiya! Especially since they are _ old fashioned, long-haired, BIG dogs, trained by a professional trainer_. Whoohoo!


So since I'm a financial analyst, and quite good at assessing things financially...at 15wks, 8 commands, potty trained, AKC German Bloodline, WITH titled dogs in her lineage, I would say my pup is worth say...oh...$15,000?? Any takers??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Get a fancy website going to promote your Super Puppy, and I'm sure someone who is looking to boost their ego will swoop her up!


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

Says they offer untrained young pups for $1,600 and up! And they act like AKC and CGC are groundbreaking things for a dog to have, some only say "AKC-quality" so I assume those aren't even registered with AKC.

I'm pretty sure you can pick up "AKC-quality" or AKC registered dogs at any shelter, newspaper, or craigslist, for $300 or less. And bonus! They might be trained. 

Saw no pedigrees on the page, no reference of health checks or OFA ratings, no titles, the dogs are way oversized if weights are true "a healthy 135 pounds" and against standard as well for longhair. Their food is Iams....

It also says that the 65lb female is too small for them, because they want to breed large longhaired sheps, though better for her to be sold(for a steal of $2,500







) than be a breeder dog for them.

I'd much rather get a needy dog from a shelter, but if I was going for and equal-quality/rated pup, could probably get it out of some BYBs in the paper for much much less. You can get much higher quality pups or adult dogs from good breeders or even shelters for less than they're charging.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Ha! Even better is their guarantee! Pay $7000 for a pup, but NO REFUNDS after 16 days if something is seriously wrong with your new pup! And once you have the pup examined, you have 2 WHOLE DAYS to get the pup back to them if it does have issues.  What if you live on the other side of the country??

** URL removed by ADMIN**


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The entire point of this thread is simply to bash a breeder & her dogs that nobody here has expressed any interest in. That's purely trollish & spozedly beneath the goals of this forum.

IF you don't like the dogs, breeder &/or prices why not simply take your business elsewhere? Or given the frequency of these trash&bash threads perhaps there s/b a separate forum dedicated to such nonsense. Of course that would require a change in rules...Something for the mods/admins & new owner to hash over perhaps.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

RubyTuesday is correct. You may discuss what you don't like, but I have removed the links to this breeder's website.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And Ruby, do note that the member is very new so probably not aware. Now they are!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I noted that, Jean. IMO, it's more trollish, rather than less, to post trash&bash drivel as a (relative)newbie. I also see several established members that rushed to 'contribute'.

Frankly, I like a wide open forum that permits trash&bash, but this one isn't that kind of forum. I'm also continually amazed that it's invariably the LC, oversized sheps that seem to incite the urge to diss so vehemently.

Sadly, the world is filled with gawdawful GSD breeders...All too many of them breeding/promoting dogs that are flatout dangerous. Despite that, it's almost always a few extra lbs or inches, a bit more fur, that gets the rabble roused in these parts. 

FTR, this is not a defense of that kennel. I didn't care for their dogs, prices or training. (I also disliked the website, but that's irrelevant to me when evaluating breeders). However, IF I felt compelled to bash this breeder I'd do it on a forum that welcomes such antics.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I personally couldn't care less about this particular breeder or dogs and found the site too difficult to navigate to really even see the dogs. I think the thread is lamenting this sort of breeding and selling of dogs in general, charging these outrageous prices for this type of "training". I think it's ridiculous regardless what the dogs look like or what titles the parents have.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies, the thread was clearly intended to bash & ridicule a particular breeder. IF it wasn't, there wouldn't have been links posted, nor would there have been remarks posted that focused quite specifically on that kennel & its dogs, prices & training. 

FTR, *my* comments are intended solely for this thread & its content. My disagreement is with remarks made here, about a particular breeder, & not the members making them. That's perhaps a subtle distinction, but real.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Some things change, but some things never change.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayI noted that, Jean. IMO, it's more trollish, rather than less, to post trash&bash drivel as a (relative)newbie. I also see several established members that rushed to 'contribute'.
> 
> Frankly, I like a wide open forum that permits trash&bash, but this one isn't that kind of forum. I'm also continually amazed that it's invariably the LC, oversized sheps that seem to incite the urge to diss so vehemently.
> 
> ...


First off, I apologize if I offended, that was not my intention with the post. My REAL intention was to find out if this was normal practice in breeding to charge these rates for basic obedience trained pups, and stating my opinion that I thought it was high, but could be wrong. I admit that it led to more than that, but it is not the first time I've seen it in this forum and YES I AM a fairly NEW member. On top of that, since you want to go on about BASHING, you've done pretty well with that here with me. But let me ask you this...if the responses to this breeder were all positive, would you have thrown an equally big fit?? Would you have screamed that I was promoting this breeder and that kind of drivel shouldn't be allowed in this forum??? Because I've NEVER seen that response in here. And though "NOW I KNOW" and will no longer post similar topics, I do value the DIFFERENCE of OPINIONS in this forum and realize that FEEDBACK when a question is asked, is simply that~FEEDBACK.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> . . . it's almost always a few extra lbs or inches, a bit more fur, that gets the rabble roused in these parts.


Oh oh . . . someone is talking about me . . . I'll be the next target for the rabble rousers . . .









And we weren't really talking about the dogs . . . more like the astounding cheek of their marketing angle. The dogs were not promised to be anything more than well trained pets, and nobody was disputing that. 

I think RubyTuesdays rant was more aggressive and inflamatory towards the board members than anything that was said on the thread about the breeder in question, and it is a diservice to the breed and in our general efforts to educate people to defend breeders of oversized, long-haired, low-drive, pet dog German Shepherd Breeders.

If you have one of these dogs, great, enjoy them, have fun with them. But I have a problem with those that fly to the defense of this kind of breeding as somehow "better" than breeding "dangerous dogs" with appropriate working drives.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayLies, the thread was clearly intended to bash & ridicule a particular breeder. IF it wasn't, there wouldn't have been links posted, nor would there have been remarks posted that focused quite specifically on that kennel & its dogs, prices & training.
> 
> FTR, *my* comments are intended solely for this thread & its content. My disagreement is with remarks made here, about a particular breeder, & not the members making them. That's perhaps a subtle distinction, but real.


And since you don't REALLY know me at all, please don't speak as if you KNOW my intentions. Thanks!!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidAnd we weren't really talking about the dogs . . . more like the astounding cheek of their marketing angle. The dogs were not promised to be anything more than well trained pets, and nobody was disputing that.
> 
> I think RubyTuesdays rant was more aggressive and inflamatory towards the board members than anything that was said on the thread about the breeder in question, and it is a diservice to the breed and in our general efforts to educate people to defend breeders of oversized, long-haired, low-drive, pet dog German Shepherd Breeders.


I was thinking the same thing...but what do I know? I'm a trolller and basher. Sry!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Tihannah
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayLies, the thread was clearly intended to bash & ridicule a particular breeder. IF it wasn't, there wouldn't have been links posted, nor would there have been remarks posted that focused quite specifically on that kennel & its dogs, prices & training.
> ...



The bashing is sort of a ritual in here - everyone that has a different type of German shepherd is usually crucified when they first come here. You have to have thick skin if you want to hang around in this forum. Trust me, I speak from personal experience.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

I dont know what the big deal is. original post was pretty straight forward (at least I knew what the OP meant) and then it did get a bit "out of control".

regardless of the "type" of GSD these are outrageous amounts of money to pay for the dog with minimal training. at least in my un-expert opinion.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I'll try to remember that, Doc, thanks. I didn't understand the comment about the LC being often dissed so vehemently, though. My pup is a long coat, and I have received many complements on her??


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

When someone is critical of my dogs that don't meet the standard, that don't have appropriate temperament or working drives I don't consider it bashing. I know what the dogs I have are and are not to a larger degree. That is the important thing. People consider it bashing if someone is critical of their beloved animals. It is not the beloved pet part of course that is evaluated for appropriateness. I am very happy that many of my breeder friends have the experience and conscience to "bash" their own stock as appropriate and work to reproduce the best they can. 

While it is important not to single out a particular breeder on the interenet, I think it is very appropriate for new people to get to see the praise and criticism offered about various breeding goals, types, prices etc. How are we to learn? Does everyone have to experience the dogs personally as I did or may they learn from others? I never thought being critical and evaluative regarding the dogs and breeding goals and practices was wrong but is in fact very enlightening and informative. Please don't stop expressing contrary opinions on either side of an issue. Now, to do so just for the sake of contrariness is very tiresome, of course.

Because I own a dog that lacks in many ways....well, it is not sacred from criticism because it is my pet. Hopefully I have recognized what the dog is and is not and have refrained from breeding appropriately. I always invite criticism and evaluations of my dogs. It is a super way to learn about dogs.

Having an opinion that is not particularly laudatory for reasons that are not personal ,is not bashing in my book but rather educational.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthRubyTuesday is correct. You may discuss what you don't like, but I have removed the links to this breeder's website.


I will no longer post links to anything not owned by me, but only thought this was acceptable as there is a post just previous to mine that asks what everyone thinks of this breeder with the link to their site included. I did not ask what anyone thought of the breeder, but of the price advertised for trained dogs. Yet, I tend to feel that because my post received negative feedback on the breeder, my links were removed, yet the previous posts' were not?? Or is this because it was expressed by another member that I was bashing and admin agreed? I would just like to understand clearly. Thanks.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is fine to post links and ask for comments. Negative comments are to be sent via PM, as per board rules. The issue is that a breeder could take the forum owners to court for publicly bashing them - thus the "no bashing" rule. So you can give neutral comments, and positive comments, but negative criticism should not be made public. There have been instances regarding other dog forums where a person would go on and on about how horrrible a certain breeder was, and that person turned around and sued them for libel, using the forum comments as evidence. 

I agree with you Kaiya, your initial post was fine. Your questions were clear - you should not feel attacked or singled out. 

And there are working-line breeders on the internet who sell their "trained" dogs for similar ridiculous prices (trained to about the same level as the breeder you linked) - and if you had linked those breeder's sites and we would have commented on how ridiculous it was (not the dogs!! the marketing gimmick!) then there would probably not have been such an uproar, the reason being that some people who have long-haired dogs take things a bit too personally.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> The bashing is sort of a ritual in here - everyone that has a different type of German shepherd is usually crucified when they first come here. You have to have thick skin if you want to hang around in this forum. Trust me, I speak from personal experience.


Doc, it would be great if we could actually see the GSD's you have, I am very curious after reading your posts to see your "different type"!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidIt is fine to post links and ask for comments. Negative comments are to be sent via PM, as per board rules. The issue is that a breeder could take the forum owners to court for publicly bashing them - thus the "no bashing" rule. So you can give neutral comments, and positive comments, but negative criticism should not be made public. There have been instances regarding other dog forums where a person would go on and on about how horrrible a certain breeder was, and that person turned around and sued them for libel, using the forum comments as evidence.
> 
> I agree with you Kaiya, your initial post was fine. Your questions were clear - you should not feel attacked or singled out.
> 
> And there are working-line breeders on the internet who sell their "trained" dogs for similar ridiculous prices (trained to about the same level as the breeder you linked) - and if you had linked those breeder's sites and we would have commented on how ridiculous it was (not the dogs!! the marketing gimmick!) then there would probably not have been such an uproar, the reason being that some people who have long-haired dogs take things a bit too personally.


Completely understood now. Thank you for clearing that up.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

From experience, do not expect many compliments from the old guard in here.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You will never see my dogs in this forum. Things became very personal when I joined and I removed my web-site and decided to never, ever post a picture of my "irrevelent old bloodline dogs". Go to the PDB and look up some of the old Long Worth Kennel dogs and you will see what "type" of dog I try to raise.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Doc, your grudge is showing (Again)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks Doc, I'll do that! Do you post pics of them on other forums?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaDoc, your grudge is showing (Again)


Well, you shouldn't expect anything different by now.


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## jenedge24 (Dec 5, 2009)

WOW!!!!
I just started reading, I guess I didn't think the replies where as HORRIBLE and DISGRACEFUL as the reaction it got. Just my Opinon AND I'm sure I'm gonna get it for having one, but just reading it I felt belittled. If there are rules for not talking trash, then we need to make sure we remind people in a direct but kind way, you know set the example. Your just stirring the pot when you just start going off. I apologize for being so direct, But I'm really new and I have noticed it's easy to get worked up, and I have had my feelings hurt already (it's a forum guys not a family reunion ) I had to remind myself that I believe a person chooses to be offended! It's often a fine line stating your opinion and talking trash, I guess its up to those who monitor to decide.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DocYou will never see my dogs in this forum. Things became very personal when I joined and I removed my web-site and decided to never, ever post a picture of my "irrevelent old bloodline dogs". Go to the PDB and look up some of the old Long Worth Kennel dogs and you will see what "type" of dog I try to raise.


I'm not sure how or when the topic turned in this direction. Was it this comment that struck a nerve?
"Especially since they are old fashioned, long-haired, BIG dogs, trained by a professional trainer." 
Because I honestly don't think this member was ridiculing the dogs themselves, but more the marketing tactics of the site. And, Doc, I'm sorry to hear that you feel inclined to keep your dogs from being exposed to the forum for whatever reason. I'd like to think this is a forum that welcomes ALL the various forms of the German Shepherd breed, and that none are more relevant than the other. Everyone has their favorites, of course, but until I joined, I had no idea how many different variations there were of the breed. I hope you'll change your mind one day as I don't yet know what a PDB







is to look it up. Shhh...don't tell anyone. ;-)


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

I apologize if my comment was offensive at all or considered one of the worst ones. Didn't mean it that way, was just pointing out facts but with anything, threw a little opinion in there too and probably crossed the line.

I'm sorry, mods feel free to delete that post.


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## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Tihannah
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DocYou will never see my dogs in this forum. Things became very personal when I joined and I removed my web-site and decided to never, ever post a picture of my "irrevelent old bloodline dogs". Go to the PDB and look up some of the old Long Worth Kennel dogs and you will see what "type" of dog I try to raise.
> ...



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

I did not take it as bashing a breeder, and agree price is nuts!!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Ohhh!! Duh! Thx!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:But let me ask you this...if the responses to this breeder were all positive, would you have thrown an equally big fit?? Would you have screamed that I was promoting this breeder and that kind of drivel shouldn't be allowed in this forum???


Positive remarks are permitted. IF you think I was screaming, you're mistaken. IF you think that was a fit, you're mistaken. Anyone suggesting this is my kind of breeder & that I'm defending my preferences in GS is mistaken.

It would still be against board rules, but I'd understand if anyone had expressed an interest in looking at pups from the kennel originally linked. 



> Quote:I was thinking the same thing...but what do I know? I'm a trolller and basher. Sry!


The thread is trollish. The original remarks made were belittling. I don't think that makes any of the participants a troll. IMO, most people are better than their occasional mistakes. As stated previously, my statements about what was posted here were directed at the _posts_, <u>not</u> the posters.

Tihannah, my concern was with what was done here. I have no idea, nor do I care, what the intentions were.



> Quote:And we weren't really talking about the dogs . . . more like the astounding cheek of their marketing angle. The dogs were not promised to be anything more than well trained pets, and nobody was disputing that.


Regardless of the *true* purpose, & whether it's directed at her pricing, registrations, titling or web design & colors, a _specific breeder_ was being ridiculed & dissed, which is inappropriate to this forum. Exploring prices & marketing approaches can be done without linking to a particular kennel. Surely everyone already knows that.



> Quote:I think RubyTuesdays rant was more aggressive and inflamatory towards the board members than anything that was said on the thread about the breeder in question, and it is a diservice to the breed and in our general efforts to educate people to defend breeders of oversized, long-haired, low-drive, pet dog German Shepherd Breeders.


In what way am I defending this breeder simply b/c I've conformed with board regs & declined to post a link to her web site & publicly diss her??? And fer chrissake, in what way is it a _*disservice to the breed*_ to COMPLY WITH BOARD REGULATIONS??? Note too, that just as there are many erroneous assumptions made about SL & WL, there are a plethora of incorrect generalizations made about over sized companion line GS. Just as WL & SL have good, bad & mediocre breeders, so do companion lines.



> Quote:If you have one of these dogs, great, enjoy them, have fun with them.


I've already stated that neither the dogs nor the pricing appeals to me. WHY would I have one of them? 



> Quote:But I have a problem with those that fly to the defense of this kind of breeding as somehow "better" than breeding "dangerous dogs" with appropriate working drives.


WHERE have I ever stated that people breeding WL with 'appropriate working drives' are breeding _dangerous_ dogs? And again, how am I defending 'this kind of breeding' simply b/c _in compliance with board rules_ I'm not publicly bashing the breeder?



> Quote:if you had linked those breeder's sites and we would have commented on how ridiculous it was (not the dogs!! the marketing gimmick!) then there would probably not have been such an uproar, the reason being that some people who have long-haired dogs take things a bit too personally.


Exactly who is this that's taking things 'personally'? I'm the one that originally criticized the thread & I don't have a LC GS. Nor have I ever had a LC GS. FTR, I'll disagree with any thread whose focus is dissing a specific breeder until & unless the rules are changed to permit that. 

There is an upside to allowing negative remarks about particular breeders, IMO...It can provide a more open exchange of opinions & information. There's also a downside as such sites seem to become obsessed on the negative. Breeders' who are bashed often feel the need to bash back. Eventually such sites devolve into a toxic morass of ugliness & low drama.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, it is a good thing that you can counteract the "low drama" with tact and positivity throughout . . .


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Not to harp, but let's just remember the definition of being libel for slander is an UNTRUTH told by an entity. 

It is my understanding that there is nothing "untrue" per say that was posted....most of it was direct quotes from their website (and then followed by an opinion). So, in some ways the links provided to support the statements and opinions given were beneficial to the libility of the site. 

Anyhoo...just playing the devils advocate here. I agree that as a general rule, forums need to stay away from bashing individuals. However, there's another side here. I've seen numerous posters refer to another member as "stupid" and "ignorant", etc. Certainly if the slandered poster can prove they are indeed not stupid (afterall, their IQ is 160), would that call for a lawsuit?

And I don't particularily find this thread trollish, for if the OP would have come on here and said she came across a website and listed the info it did without adressing where the info came from, it likely would have generated the exact same responses.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Frankly I'm done goin back and forth on this. I apologized for offending anyone in my original response to your rant and its really starting to bug me that you keep referring to my original email as in intentional post to bash this breeder. If you would like to go back reread my original post, it states nothing about the breeder or their dogs. My question was regarding the prices of trained pups and whether or not PEOPLE/CONSUMERS/BUYERS actually pay these prices, and generally why people do not educate themselves on the breed before making a purchase like this. And if you follow the thread for the next few responses, the conversation led in that direction, i.e. "some people will pay those prices", "one born every minute, etc.". And you completely contradict yourself throughout this statement about what you "care and don't care about. You don't care what my intentions were, but it is stressed and assumed that my intentions were to bash and belittle this breeder. I only posted the link so that if this WAS a normal practice, a member could look at it and say, "Well, its because blah, blah, blah" perhaps something I didn't see or know, since I've already said that I'm both new to the forum and the breed. And your concern with "what was done here" seems highly overblown. I opened this can of worms, apologized for my UNINTENTIONAL mistake in posting the link, and I have stated that I will longer post links to any sites not owned by myself, yet you continue to belittle my character in making this newbie mistake and posting a link that generated negative opinions of marketing and pricing of dogs. Perhaps you need to evaluate your strong assumptions and approach to the negativity in this thread. For someone that is so against posting negative comments against another in this forum, you certainly brought your fair share, instead of, like a few other members, who explained why the links and negative comments shouldn't be posted. But thanks, it was a great welcome to the forum!


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

The only thing you maybe should not have done was post it under choosing a breeder instead it should have been under chat perhaps? I think where you posted, is what caused the zoomies. I have posted things wrong to, sometimes newbies do it. I could not and did not read all the posts, so sorry if I have said what someone else already has.
Yes people over blow stuff on here a lot, they have a name for it, it is called being flamed. It is not fun being flamed welcome to the flamed club! Despite that I still love this forum!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Tihannah
> ...


I'd also like to think that this forum would welcome all the various forums of the German shepherd breed, but they don't. This forum is dominated with folks who identify with "the working line" forum of German shepherd - however that is defined. As in this responses towards the LC Oversized web-site in this forum, most in this forum do not have have a high opinion of a GSD that is not classified as a working line. Sad but true.


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## cwf (May 27, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> LOL Kaiya! Especially since they are _old fashioned, long-haired, BIG dogs, trained by a professional trainer_. Whoohoo!


*THIS* is exactly the sort of "objectivity" I was questioning in the Walsh's Windy Acres Oversize GSD thread that was just closed! 
This, from a moderator.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hey, I got a stalker!! 

I'll lock this before more feelings get hurt.


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