# What should you expect from a breeder?



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

As a puppy buyer, what should I expect from a breeder? If I did my homework, found a reputable breeder, agree to be bound by the sales contract, paid the agreed price for a puppy etc. etc. Should I expect to receive a healthy puppy on delivery? 

I understand, that there are health problems that can occur in any puppy. I understand that the breeder does not have a crystal ball. But I'm strictly speaking of 'on delivery' of said puppy. 

If the puppy was delivered to you full of fleas and wormy, perhaps even has a staff infection of some sort. During your vet check the vet states the puppy has not received the proper care. However, at that time the vet doesn't see any genetic, live threatening/altering issues. 

Should I expect to hold said breeder to a higher standard than a byb?


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Lilie said:


> If the puppy was delivered to you full of fleas and wormy, perhaps even has a staff infection of some sort. During your vet check the vet states the puppy has not received the proper care.


I would question the idea that this pup was from a "reputable" breeder.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Should I expect to hold said breeder to a higher standard than a byb? 

Absolutely!!!

A reputable breeder would have dewormed the pups several times before 8 wks of age. Even breeders who do limited vaccinating will at least have given one vaccination to the pup (usually just parvo). Others will have given more. Should have already had at least one vet visit. I did send my pups home from my first litter on chicken/rice. They were 8 wks and had loose stool, already given albon and were getting better. They continued to get better in their homes and were switched to what ever kibble their new owners chose to feed. When I had them at the vet for their first visit, the vet commented to me on how healthy they all were. She had seen a couple other litters recently that were not as healthy. I believe the fact that they were healthy to begin with, the bout of diarrhea was not much of a set back.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

zyppi said:


> I would question the idea that this pup was from a "reputable" breeder.


:thumbup:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

zyppi said:


> I would question the idea that this pup was from a "reputable" breeder.


Ditto.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Basic care should be expected regardless but yes I would hold a "reputable" breeder to a higher standard. Fleas and worms? No way, I would send a email letting them know my vets findings without being argumentative.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

well - the puppy should have been returned right then and there!!!!!!!!

I just heard a story similar to this...with some statistics on how many litters the breeder has ongoing at a time....nearly 2 dozen "breeding females".....etc etc etc....

Looking at litter letters lets you see how much someone is breeding - IF they use them! Someone was negative about a breeder who took 12 years to go through the alphabet here on a thread - but another breeder recommended often, in the same time period, is on the 4th trip through .....go figure.....also hearing horror stories about mulitple pups in the same litter dying/euthanized for seizures....wonder if this is same breeder????? Also recommended here regularly.....

Board recommendations for "reputable" breeders are often based on the breeders website, 1 or 2 pet dogs owned on board, postings by the breeder etc.....that is not research people.....2 of the breeders I heard of recently are known among other breeders to be what they are...not what is touted online....

I hope it works out for this owner to get some compensation and find a puppy from someone who "walks the walk"

Lee


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

zyppi said:


> I would question the idea that this pup was from a "reputable" breeder.


I agree, and would really be concerned with the husbandry of the breeder. I think I'd send the pup back personally and see how the animals are cared for. Then get AC involved if there would be cause. Worms are a given, and most pups need more than a few treatments to clear....but fleas and a staph infection upon delivery is inexcusable. Breeder should have not shipped a pup in that condition!


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I picked up both Zeus and Odin. Both of them were fully bathed and smells like popcorn out of the microwave. They were uber fluffy, clean, fully vaccinated and no hidden guest ei, worms/fleas.

Koda was shipped to me by his breeder at 5 months old. He was xrayed (preliminary), bathed, micro chipped, all pre-requisite vacs done and no hidden guests. He was squeeky clean and rambunctious the moment my husband picked up at the airport. He acted like he's been in my home forever when they got home, there were no awkward moment whatsoever. 

I, as a buyer will not accept anything less. If my Landrover was delivered all dirty with fleas/bugs all over it, I will not accept delivery. It's just that simple. 

Reputable breeder are humans and makes mistakes too, but if that puppy was shipped with all that stuff- that ain't no reputable breeder in my book.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I expect a dog that looks like what I want (health, sex, coat, size, color), a registration paper, and a paper with the vial labels *if* the dog was already de-wormed and/or vaccinated. I take the puppy to the vet within 2 days and see this as my responsibility, so if there is something wrong I can return to the breeder without delay.

I do not expect anything more or anything less from any breeder. In my world there are not different criteria for BYB or reputable breeder, only breeders I will purchase from and breeders I won't.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

[REMOVED]- This is interesting enough to me to start a new thread on the topic.


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

IMO, a puppy should arrive in good condition. No fleas, proof of worming (although that doesn't mean that there won't be any worms), no infection. I'd be very disappointed if this was how my pup arrived. I was informed, though, that the worming meds do NOT kill the eggs (even if they say they do) so the pup would need to still be wormed even though he'd been wormed previously. The other stuff, though, would be things I'd expect to see from a BYB, not from a reputable breeder. I've never gotten a pup from ANY breeder that had these issues, though. (And none were overly reputable breeders) 

Did you just get a puppy?


----------



## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

I don't yet have my pup for another few days but I know my breeder confirmed on more than one occasion that the pup will have been dewormed 3 times, have all her first shots (next round is due only at 12 weeks of age)

I would be horrified if my pup showed up like the one you are posting about.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If the puppy crossed state lines it should have had a health certificate. I would be questioning the vet who signed off, as well as the breeder.

I bought a puppy that had been dewormed at the breeder's.... and she still was full of worms. I didn't like it, but dewormed her again and moved on.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my opinion, I would expect a healthy puppy free from infection, fleas/ticks, disease and genetic "defects". I would expect the Breeder to have informed me of any genetic or birth defects ahead of time. I would also have expected the breeder to have enough experience to properly evaluate in order to give me the energy level that I requested. At 8 weeks old, they should have been wormed already. It's possible they could still have worms at that age but should be minimal.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

gagsd said:


> If the puppy crossed state lines it should have had a health certificate. I would be questioning the vet who signed off, as well as the breeder.


I didn't even think of that, and I absolutely agree. You need to find out who the vet was, and have a conversation. It's possible that the breeder has a relationship with the vet that allows for the vet to simply "sign off" on puppies, sight unseen. This is unethical and illegal, but it's been known to happen. I'm just speculating here, but perhaps this breeder has had good practices in the past, so that the vet trusted him to send pups off in good shape. If this is the case, the vet is going to want to know what's really going on, because he could be in deep doo-doo.

If the vet is actually doing an exam and signing off on puppies that are wormy, flea-infested, and suffering from staph infections, it's just as bad!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What if you cross a state line to get a puppy, is it still required? I did not get one for Pan, and honestly unless there is something really *wrong* with the puppy I prefer they are not going to the vet because they can pick up more crap there. I'm fine with experienced breeders doing the de-worming, tattoo/chip, and first vaccination. I always take my puppy to the vet within 72 hours but then at least I have control and the responsibility is with me to keep the pup from getting sick (I just carry in so the pup only touches me and the table).


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it depends on the state, Lies. If a dog crosses into PA, they need a cert.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Worms and Giarda are quite common today. It is not uncommon for a breeder to combat these things with a litter. I would expect to be informed by breeder and see evidence( by records) that it is being addressed. Things like this if disclosed would not be a deal breaker for me....I would much rather get the dog I want and clear this up myself than going somewhere else and maybe not getting a pup of the same quality.....but everyone knows I'm weird like that:crazy:


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Even if you're driving the pup home? I bought a pup from a breeder in a neighboring state right as were were moving to yet another state. I had no health cert and didn't know I needed one. My boy is going to have one (today) because he's flying. I thought that they only needed that cert. if they were flying, though. I'd be interested to know if you need one otherwise.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> In my opinion, I would expect a healthy puppy free from infection, fleas/ticks, disease and genetic "defects". I would expect the Breeder to have informed me of any genetic or birth defects ahead of time. I would also have expected the breeder to have enough experience to properly evaluate in order to give me the energy level that I requested. *At 8 weeks* *old, they should have been wormed already. It's possible they could still have worms at that age but should be minimal*.


If it was an older puppy, say around 10-11 weeks old? Should I expect more of the breeder?


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Should they actively have worms? I'd say no. However, I'd expect that they'd need to have a stool check and be wormed again just for the sake of it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Worms and Giarda are quite common today. It is not uncommon for a breeder to combat these things with a litter. I would expect to be informed by breeder and see evidence( by records) that it is being addressed. Things like this if disclosed would not be a deal breaker for me....I would much rather get the dog I want and clear this up myself than going somewhere else and maybe not getting a pup of the same quality.....but everyone knows I'm weird like that:crazy:


Ditto. One of my dogs came home with a 5-day parasite treatment. It did not change how I felt about the dog or breeder. I finished the treatment and my dog was fine and has not had parasites at all. After purchasing another dog I got a call from that breeder informing me that one of the other puppies had coccidia, so I had a fecal done as a precaution and that was it. I did not cry that the breeder is terrible, I was thankful for the tip and treated my dog accordingly. If the breeder has de-wormed I would like to know with what and when but it's just so I'm not over-treating the dog myself, it is not some requirement for me.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, Nancy, I have a pretty high standard on what I want. I believe it's fair. Any dog could have worms at any age and not be detected until a fecal exam or even missed by one. 

But the overall condition of the puppy as described, covered in fleas, pretty much guarantees that this puppy will have worms from the fleas. Given the description that this puppy also had a skin infection, leads me to believe the fleas were there for a very long time and broke down the barrier of the skin.

There is no way the breeder could NOT have known there was an issue. These things don't develop overnight. For a "reputable", experienced, breeder to send a puppy out like this makes me suspect that he has a really good front going on. 

Did this puppy have any congenital or genetic defects as well?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Did this puppy have any congenital or genetic defects as well?


This specific pup had an Inverted Vulva, but the buyer was told of the defect when the pup was picked up. The breeder informed her that the pup would grow out of it.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Worming pups is not rocket science!!!!! Anyone doing litters regularly can buy panacur or strongid and worm the pups regularly as soon as they start to eat...I do mine every 10 days with a 2 or 3 day dosage - at least 3 times...if I see worms I do the 3 days, wait 10, do 3, wait 10 and do 3 again....the dates adn types of wormer used are in the final draft of the contract...hopefully you hit the cylce of eggs sheeding and only one or two pups have ever left with roundworms - and then a very very light case in over 10 years.

Giardia and coccidia are usually rellated to standing water...or other dogs shediding...luckily have never had thiis problem.

Anyone sending home or shipping pups with fleas, worms or other issues is either sloppy, careless, ignorant or just plain greedy. These are all easy to treat and avoid.

Lee


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Worms and Giarda are quite common today. It is not uncommon for a breeder to combat these things with a litter. I would expect to be informed by breeder and see evidence( by records) that it is being addressed. Things like this if disclosed would not be a deal breaker for me....


Same here. Many breeders have to deal with Giardia, Coccidia, fleas, and other parasites...they are out there. But a good breeder deals with the problem and informs puppy buyers. If I received a parasite-ridden pup, with no mention of treatment, no mention of a problem... I'd really wonder what was going on at that breeder's place.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with Freestep. there may be a problem, but the breeder needs to disclose it, and discuss what treatment the puppy has had. 

They should have been wormed. 

Newly bathed -- well, if you are showing puppies three times in a week are you going to bathe the puppy each time? Puppies are messy, and yes they should not have look like they are living in poop, but they are puppies, and the more there are, the quicker they poop and run through it while you are still bathing another one of them. 

They should appear well cared for. And if there is an obvious issue, it should be discussed before the papers are signed.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think the disappointment I have is I'd expected more from a 'reputable' breeder. Or someone I thought was, I guess. 

I feel like if I went and bought a used car from and individual, I wouldn't expect it to look like a new car. And I'd pretty much get what I paid for. I'd hope I'd get lucky. Like a BYB. 

But if I purchased a brand new car, I'd hold the vehicle to a higher standard. I'd expect the dealer to supply a service and behave like a professional. Same as I would an individual who claims to be a reputable breeder. 

If puppies aren't being taken care of, I would think the breeding stock isn't either. If care isn't given to the dogs, then they are just being used as a money source. The only difference between said breeders and a byb is the price of the pup.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Look at the breeders program(and if they are working their dogs or just breeding) and their other dogs, not just the litter you're interested in. Look at how long lived their dogs are. Lifespan on the foundation is important to me. 
I know some breeders don't keep their 'stock' that long but it bodes well to me if I can see what they've bred, how long their dogs(in kennel and sold) live and what they pass from. Some breeders will have that transparent on their website. 
Best to look at the big picture and not just the cute litter that is for sale.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the condition of the puppy speaks volumes on the ethics and honesty of the breeder. Volumes....makes you wonder what else he's dishonest about.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Look at the breeders program(and if they are working their dogs or just breeding) and their other dogs, not just the litter you're interested in. Look at how long lived their dogs are. Lifespan on the foundation is important to me.


That is a very good ideal and makes a lot of sense! Where would I find that type of information? Also, would the dog owner have to submit the information when they lose the dog?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Look up dogs with their kennel name....many breeders will have in memory or past dogs pages with them listed. Large commercial breeders probably would be harder to trace what they produce, but the smaller hobby breeder is what I was writing about. 
We read so many instances of dogs dying of cancer, renal failure,bloat, or have health issues.....what kennels are producing them? I doubt anyone is responsible for giving health info out, but if you investigate you may be able to find info thru web search. It seems the ones who are unhappy love to publicly share their experiences.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

First off....I agree with Cliff.
Lee...if you have never experienced Giardia or Coccidia...you are one in a million....consider yourself very lucky.

EVERY breeder that I have ever known, has experienced these parasites.....including myself.
These parasites are *not* only subjected to dogs through standing water or feces.
They are shed by other animals, and can easily be picked up simply by "sniffing" the ground.
If a breeder travels anywhere with their dogs....they are subjected to them.
If a breeder has "other dogs" on their home premises....they are subjected to them.
Once the parasite(s) are "within ground"...they are there...and the dogs will be subjected to them time and time again.

The job of the breeder is to "address" the issue......and remedy it, if their dogs or puppies indeed become infected.
*Fleas......in some places they were at epidemic infestations, especially due to the warm, dry weather.* My own vet(s) could not keep up with their office supply of flea products. (luckily, not a problem that I/we have ever had).
*Worms.....all pups need to be properly de-wormed....but yes, they can still have them at 10 wks old, especially if they are "stool eaters".

All breeders should maintain healthy, well cared for dogs & puppies.....it is our *job.*
The amount of litters one breeder has....should have no baring on what condition the litters are in. If the care reflects this....then they should lower the amount, or hire the help that is needed.
I have seen many 1-2 litter per year breeders (who LOVE to point fingers and pat themselves on the back)....produce very poor quality puppies, and have *no right* to cast stones, when they live in glass houses themselves.

To the OP: I can understand the frustration you have faced. *NO*...it should not be acceptable, and the breeder should stand up and try to make things right for the buyer.....period.
Sometimes.....buyer and breeder, are unfortunately...not a good match in the end.
...again...JMO...nothing more.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

nope - no cocciada or giaradia.....bought a dog with mange from a terrible terrible BYB once....picked up hooks and whips (in soil as you say Robin) at a trainers (later several dogs died at his kennel from them!!!) But rounds are about the extent of what I have experienced with pups, and usually do manage to get them clean before they leave....

Dogs only go to certain places - training, a small ball field locally, the stable where my mare lives....have been pretty lucky - I know how common these parasites are!

Lee


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is why I'll only get a dog from people who keep their breeding stock as pets in their home. They care enough to keep their pets healthy they will most likely have healthy puppies. If this eliminates breeders that have outside kennel dogs, oh well...it's not very difficult to find a good high quality pup where the parents live indoors.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know a breeder who keeps his dogs in kennels, for the most part--they do come in the house occasionally, but they have the nicest kennel setup I've ever seen--there's a climate controlled kennel building so they can come inside, with attached outdoor runs. It is immaculate, and the breeder has never had a problem with parasites as far as I know. So I don't think that just because the dogs don't live in the house, it necessarily follows that they will be unhealthy or not well cared for.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@Lee.....Mange...THANK GOD, never experienced it.
Last dog I had that tested positive for whips, was a Doberman I bought about 18 years ago....(nasty worm!)....and yep, I've also heard of dogs (so infested) that they have dies from the anemia they caused.
@Mart......residing indoors has nothing to do with contracting any parasite.
We don't have a "kennel set up either".....my dogs all live and reside indoors, although they have 15-20 foot dog runs & the 3/4 acre to safely excercise in through out the day.
As long as there is "Nature & Wild life"......domestic animals are always subjected.A breeder's own yard is a wonderland for parasites.....just as the bottom of one's own shoes are. Going to "dog events", subjects one's own dogs to many kinds of parasites and viruses. 
Your breeder (if whom I think).... has experienced them also....just like I said earlier.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have a rescue, and are currently hand-raising a litter from birth that was dumped in a kill shelter. There's 6 puppies.
If we can manage to deworm every 2 weeks with pyrantel pamoate, surely a breeder can.
The 1st worming saw no worms, but the 2nd worming (at 4 weeks old) did see a few.
We'll deworm @ 6 and then 8 weeks.
Fleas aren't an issue here but if we do an intake and someone has them, they are treated and if there was a lapse of a few hours (between intake and when we saw the fleas), we flea treat all exposed.

Now if a rescue can do all that, surely a breeder could, who _sells_ puppies?


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@MSV......Absolutely. All breeders should have a responsible protocol to follow.
My comment (if read correctly) is simply stating that just because a puppy or dog has fleas or parasites, does not automatically qualify the breeder as having poor breeding practices or being a poor breeder themselves.
I've also heard many infestations with a lot of rescues & shelters....it did not make them horrible either.
* I just don't tend to judge things or people so easily......I just make general, factual comments.*
In certain places...fleas & ticks were at epidemic status...almost impossible to control in some areas, and there is only so much poison one can subject their dogs to.*THANKFULLY....I have had no such problems (knock on wood).*...
Diligence is key.....precaution is another key.
JMO.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think the larger concern (to me anyway) is that a worm load can reduce a puppy's immunity as can coccidia or giardia, to the extent they are more susceptible to parvo. 
When working at the shelter, it was never routine to deworm, although we vaccinated upon arrival.
I began worming the puppies when we'd get them, and vaccinating as well, upon arrival. 
In three years of working there, I never had a parvo case. 

I think also people are more forgiving of shelters and rescues, whose resources are limited, than they are when purchasing a puppy from a breeder?


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> My comment (if read correctly) is simply stating that just because a puppy or dog has fleas or parasites, does not automatically qualify the breeder as having poor breeding practices or being a poor breeder themselves.


That is my opinion as well. As long as the breeder is taking steps to treat the problem, and advises the buyer, I can forgive parasites to a point. They are everywhere and can be VERY persistent. Parasites do make housecalls, but they can be picked up anywhere, especially if the breeder is very active with their dogs and attends a lot of dog events in a lot of different places (which you would want them to do).


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

But...I don't think that it is something warranting "forgiving"......I think it is simply a fact of life.
Where there are animals...there are parasites.
I also think there is a HUGE difference between having a dog with a few fleas....and having one "infested" with fleas or ticks.
*Condition*...overall condition of the puppies or dogs.....would be a deciding factor for me.
HA!...just ask ANYONE who knows me...how I am about bugs of ANY kind! LOL

My comments are always a meant as "in general".....not "directed" to any one person or situation.


----------



## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

I've never purchased a puppy from a breeder, but I'd be very concerned about the environment at the kennel if the pup is infested with fleas and has a skin infection.

We have had a variety of cats and dogs over the years. Fleas are a pain in the butt when you get them but prevention is key. We treat our yard every few months and the animals get flea meds as soon as they are old enough. If the adult animals are treated with a preventative and the grounds are treated where are the fleas coming from? Someone mentioned the dogs picking them up if you take them somewhere but pups that young shouldn't be going anywhere.

Lastly, if somehow you get an infestation, if you care about the reputation of your business and the animals you get it taken care of as quickly as possible. Anyone that comes to view puppies or lives with the puppies is going to be affected as well. I just don't see how someone could think its ok for their animals to have fleas. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

one dog (or person) visiting the grounds can bring in fleas. And, even with preventative, many people are finding that bugs are developing an immunity. Here, some places are absolutely INFESTED with ticks this year. Even with the grounds treated and the animals treated, Singe came home from an agility seminar absolutely crawling with seed ticks. 
A friend has a flea problems in her house. She's been treating her house for 5 MONTHS and can't get rid of them. She even sent the dog and cats to stay at her parents house, thinking that the animals were bringing them back in and re-infesting the house. Still no luck. She ended up having to hire an exterminator to bring in stronger chemicals than you can buy yourself. They ended up treating the house 4 times to get rid of them. 
So, fleas by themselves wouldn't be a big deal to me. The inverted vulva, the buyer knew about. And, as others have said, the worms aren't a big surprise in a puppy.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> But...I don't think that it is something warranting "forgiving"......I think it is simply a fact of life.


Well, yes. But I am coming from a professional grooming perspective, where it is NOT forgivable to give a client their dog back with live fleas on it!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Well, yes. But I am coming from a professional grooming perspective, where it is NOT forgivable to give a client their dog back with live fleas on it!


It's not the fleas but the fact that nobody noticed it, or else they did and just didn't care.
That'd be my concern and it is in these settings as well (rescue, groomer, shelter, breeder).

We did intake on a returned dog recently that was in a shelter for 2 days before an assistant picked him up at the shelter.
He had fleas. I was like, WTF? Does the shelter not look? Not care??

That's how I felt about it - I can only imagine buying a dog and having it come with fleas on it. A vet check would have revealed fleas so I could presume that a vet check did not occur prior to the puppy arriving at my home.
All kinds of things.

Sure I could overlook it but then again, my concern would be the bigger picture. What _else_ got overlooked?


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm wondering when the buyer themselves take responsibility for the animals they bring home? When Leyna came home, her fecal was clear but we continued to deworm through 16 weeks because things can be missed. Hades had some worms but the count was really low. We also continued to deworm him through 16 weeks.
Some places do have horrid flea infestations right now. Luckily, my area is not one of them. My animals are all still treated as well as my yard and house every other month, just to make sure.

I guess my thought is that the buyer went and picked up said puppy, was extremely happy with said puppy, but then didn't want said puppy anymore. Now the buyer is complaining about the breeder.

If a buyer is truly not happy with the condition of a pup, do not buy it and take it home.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd have to know the sequence of events that led up to this...was the buyer ecstatic w/puppy from the git go and became less satisfied as they poured money into the puppy from day one? 

Many people don't do "home vettin'" so while I could, and have in the past, given vaccines, dewormed and neutered a puppy, (well, that was done @ the vet LOL) we got from a so-called "rescue", many folks would take puppy to vet, purchase all the things they needed, fecal floats, dewormings, vaccines, etc. and that could sour them a bit after being hit with that bill...

I mean, we donated $50 to this "rescue" and still had to deworm, the puppy had tape worms crawling out of his butt on the ride home! He'd had no vaccines, nothing. 
So in actuality, we over paid them since we had to start vetting him from the moment we acquired him...! That was kinda sucky and we only spent $50. 
If we'd spent, I dunno, $500 - 1000, I think I'd have been even more disappointed...?


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

but those expenses (worming and even flea meds) are normal costs of owning a puppy. It sounds more like the owner is looking to blame someone.

The "real" issue would be the inverted vulva which the buyer was told about before accepting the puppy.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but those expenses (worming and even flea meds) are normal costs of owning a puppy. It sounds more like the owner is looking to blame someone.


Agreed


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wanted to add, I could see being unhappy with a puppy when you met it, but not taking the puppy and having it for months then saying (months later), well, they were a problem because _upon arrival_ the puppy had fleas and worms. 

It would help if we were told the full story instead of assuming someone just went last week and picked up the puppy which was wormy and flearidden, the way the post made it sound, this _just_ occurred.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> If the puppy was *delivered to you *full of fleas and wormy, perhaps even has a staff infection of some sort. During your vet check *the vet states the puppy has not received the proper care*. However, at that time the vet doesn't see any genetic, live threatening/altering issues.
> 
> Should I expect to hold said breeder to a higher standard than a byb?


These two bolded parts are important.
If I went to pick up a pup in that condition, I maybe would pass. And after vetting and hearing what the vet said....doesn't bode well from the _responsible breeder_ aspect.
If I had a pup sent to me in that condition I would be livid! Especially if the pup was flea infested. Just trying to get them cleared out of a vehicle would be difficult, let alone a house.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah but even then the time to "complain" is when you get the puppy, not months later.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How do you know it is months later, Lilie posted a thread on breeder ethics/ she wasn't complaining. How do you know the owner waited months?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'll message you


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

exactly. the time to complain would have been when you saw the condition of the pup or at least after taking the dog to the vet.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

My original question was "what should I expect from a breeder?" This thread sorta morphed into a life of it's own. 

I will say, that I would expect more from a reputable breeder then getting a pup that is full of fleas, worms & a staff infection. I would expect more than the vet stating the pup hasn't been properly taken care of.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

never mind....


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> exactly. the time to complain would have been when you saw the condition of the pup or at least after taking the dog to the vet.


Agreed, but OP's question was "What should I expect from a breeder" not "When should I complain about a puppy received with worms, fleas, and a staph infection?" For all we know, the problems have already been addressed with the breeder.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My question would be...when the person received the puppy why were the ecstatic and nothing was said _then?_ 
If this puppy was such a mess, they certainly never mentioned it then.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> My question would be...when the person received the puppy why were the ecstatic and nothing was said _then?_
> If this puppy was such a mess, they certainly never mentioned it then.


How do you know? As I mentioned, the problems may have been brought up with the breeder when she first got the pup. Again, the point of this thread was "What do I expect", not "When should I complain or what should I do."


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think it comes down to a matter of credibility. Are the complaints believable? If the issues were so bad, why accept the dog? Why not return it immediately?
Why keep the dog for months and post photos showing it off and bragging how wonderful the dog was?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The question was "what should you expect" and a few very reputable breeders have stepped in and said the "issues" are not a big deal. Those breeders whom have earned credibility on this board have stated that "fleas happen, worms happen" and if the dog is all it's cracked up to be, then the issues can easily be disregarded as a "non issue", or at least that's how I read it. Certainly nothing to crucify a breeder over, was how I read it.

That said, I would suspect the credibility as well...because back when the transaction took place _nothing_ was said. 
Only now, a year later, is anything being said here on this board, enough that another person has posed the question.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe...just maybe...there is more to it than some people commenting here know. As far as credibility, that goes both ways. I"m sure there is just as much evidence to support the claim made by the buyer.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree but when someone says they are happy with something and then 10 months or a year later, decide they don't want that something any longer, and we only hear then about something that happened on the day they got that something, it makes you go..."huh??"

I mean...had things been brought up then, we'd say "Oh yeah, I remember you saying that". 

You don't buy a car and notice the day you purchase it that the seats were all stained, then turn around and a year later bring the car back, and ask for your money back because the seats had stains on day one.

Even if you leave the car at the dealership they aren't going to give you your money back for it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No...but I might buy a car, notice a broken windshield on the way home and after things go wrong with it for 10 months and the dealership says they'll fix it and reimburse me and then stiffs me, I would start to complain and not be very happy.

All I'm saying is there is more to the story than you may know so a strong opinion may be out of place.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

but are you a buyer with a history of buying cars, keeping them for several months, and then getting rid of them once the novelty has worn off?


----------



## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> No...but I might buy a car, notice a broken windshield on the way home and after things go wrong with it for 10 months and the dealership says they'll fix it and reimburse me and then stiffs me, I would start to complain and not be very happy.
> 
> All I'm saying is there is more to the story than you may know so a strong opinion may be out of place.


So are you saying the question posed may be more of a "should this have been my first clue?" 

If it has been 10-12 mos since delivery of the puppy, I can't help but think of the normal difficulties people complain I read about with puppies this age, which seem to boil down to training. Without more background we won't know, but if isn't training related why wouldn't you provide the full history? 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m not saying any question should have been posed. I'm saying there is more to the story and it's not up to us to debate used cars without knowing all the facts.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

If they didn't want the issue to be debated, perhaps they shouldn't have asked the question?

The question was phrased giving only one side of the story so why is it wrong to ask questions related to the other side like "why wait so long to complain"? 

Now that people are questioning the buyers version of events we are told that we don't have all the facts and how date we question her?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What was asked was about a puppy infested with fleas and worms. Infested...not just some fleas but infested. There is a difference. 

What is being debated in the last few posts has nothing to do with the original question and it's involving people that aren't taking into consideration there might be more to the story that they don't know. I don't know the breeder side which is why I've been pretty careful to keep my strong opinions on the matter to myself and only answer the original question.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> If they didn't want the issue to be debated, perhaps they shouldn't have asked the question?
> 
> The question was phrased giving only one side of the story so why is it wrong to ask questions related to the other side like "why wait so long to complain"?
> 
> Now that people are questioning the buyers version of events we are told that we don't have all the facts and how date we question her?


Actually, my original question was answered by qualified breeders...in this thread. 

There are additional things a buyer can look for when searching for a breeder that will assist in the search for a reputable breeder. Things that can help a buyer tell the difference between a reputable breeder and a byb who represents themselves as a reputable breeder. 

That was my main concern when creating this thread.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dainerra said:


> but are you a buyer with a history of buying cars, keeping them for several months, and then getting rid of them once the novelty has worn off?


cars are not living beings and shouldn't be compared to a breeder/buyer situation. Breeders need to carefully screen their buyers so they can avoid the novelty situations. And buyers need to do the same so they can avoid getting a puppy with parasite infestation when they take possession(though I know worms are pretty much a given) But NOT fleas or skin irritation/nutrition deficiency because of the fleas.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

SewSleepy said:


> So are you saying the question posed may be more of a "should this have been my first clue?"
> 
> If it has been 10-12 mos since delivery of the puppy, *I can't help but think of the normal difficulties people complain I read about with puppies this age, which seem to boil down to training. * Without more background we won't know, but if isn't training related why wouldn't you provide the full history?
> 
> ...


Exactly...and if that's the case, then why would anyone expect a refund when they returned said puppy? 
As a rescuer, even, we don't give refunds if the issue is failure to train or inability to "handle" the dog, due to that lack of training.



> Breeders need to carefully screen their buyers so they can avoid the novelty situations.


:thumbup:


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Deleted....just going to mind my own business...this is not my karma....


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> but are you a buyer with a history of buying cars, keeping them for several months, and then getting rid of them once the novelty has worn off?


Then you pay attention to what other people have to say who might have also purchased a "car" from the same "lot". Is there a pattern showing with other cars purchased? Are the number of satisfied car buyers proportionate to the number of cars being sold by that dealer?

If I remember correctly, the dealer was warned about that particular car buyer and the attitude of the dealer was "Bite me, I know what I am doing". 

One dissatisfied car buyer does not a pattern make. Several, disconnected car buyers, all taking about the same kinds of problems? That is a pattern. 
Sheilah


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Exactly...and if that's the case, then why would anyone expect a refund when they returned said puppy?
> As a rescuer, even, we don't give refunds if the issue is failure to train or inability to "handle" the dog, due to that lack of training.
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


I have no idea where this is even coming from. I'm not questioning 'refunds', nor can health issues be cured with proper training. Proper health care, true...but training? Not so much.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It seems there's plenty of "different versions" floating around for sure...


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

sit said:


> Then you pay attention to what other people have to say who might have also purchased a "car" from the same "lot". Is there a pattern showing with other cars purchased? Are the number of satisfied car buyers proportionate to the number of cars being sold by that dealer?



also, since you mention this, is the fact that after receiving this "defective" puppy the buyer went out of her way to recommend the breeder to others, posting in threads asking for breeders and posting photos of the dog in question and saying how thrilled she was in her dealings with the breeder.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am wondering if this thread should not be closed. There have been enough veiled personal vendetta threads already.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, I agree. Though the original question is a good one, and has merit as a rhetorical discussion. Too bad it has turned into implied accusations.


----------

