# Please help- vomiting blood



## dobricans

I tried to search similar topics and didn't find anything, i am freaking out right now. Please help!!!

safir refused his morning meal. When I got home he asked to go out and he pooped just mucousy liquid only.
When we came in I gave him a Pepto Bismol ( which his vet recommended in cases of upset stomach like this). 5 minutes later he vomited what I think was bile with blood in it. The vomit was a light red with many little bright red spots in it. I tried to look closely and it looks like blood. It's the first time this happened to. 
A little history: he is 2 yrs old, has SIBO, which comes and goes, and once in a while he refuses to eat, and usually vomits bile about 5-6 hours after refusing a meal. So that is normal, but never did he vomit blood. He has been on Yams LR and 2 days ago started mixing in California Natural lamb and rice, on which he had previously been for a long time, with no incidents. I just really want to get him off Yams LR, one of the reason being that he hasn't been eating so well since they changed from Eukanuba LR to
Yams LR.
Should I be extremely worried about him vomiting blood and take him to the ER? I've never experienced this before. Please help!


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## The Stig

I play on the side of caution, especially in instances like these. I would immediately take her to my vet. Or ER as the next viable choice. 

If I were you, I wouldn't wait around for answers. 

Let us know what the prognosis is. Good luck.


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## BowWowMeow

Go to the vet right now. We can't diagnose something like this over the internet and you are absolutely better safe than sorry! I hope it's irritation and not anything else but I would go to the vet.


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## WiscTiger

This is one of the times where the Vet is my best friend. I don't run my dogs to the Vet for every little thing, BUT blood coming out of places where it shouldn't is always a call to the Vet and a Visit that day.

Let us know what the Vet said.


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## kbigge

Take him to the vet asap! Don't waste time typing online! (I mean this in the nicest possible way). Blood coming out of either end needs immediate Dr visit, IMO. Sending hugs and prayers - if this was Kodee, I'd be going apesh*t right now! Good luck & let us know what the vet says!


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## 3K9Mom

Vomiting blood is often a symptom of poisoning or that your dog ate something that is causing great damage to the stomach. IF you're still around, get out of here. 

Now! 

Bring some of the vomitus with you, as you would any other bodily fluids sample. It will help the vet diagnose the problem.


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## dobricans

Ok, so after reading the first reply I called the vet and took off with Safir. I was seriously freaking out, and I didn't wait arround any longer to see the replies.
I picked up the plastic bag where I threw the paper towels used to clean his vomit got Safir and drove to the vet.
So, she did an thorough examination on him , took blood, fecal sample, and took a look at the vomitus I had brought with me. It was definitely blood mixed with bile. He didn't have any discomfort when she palpated his stomach. And he didn't seam to be lethargic anymore (he was a little after throwing up), he was actually happy to see everyone there. She thinks it's a *stomach ulcer*, possible from food allergies. Fecal sample was fine. We are waiting for the blood results. Meanwhile she gave him 2 injections: one to stop the vomiting, and one that coats the inside of his stomach with a protective layer. Also gave me some tablets to give him.

Poor Safir is exhausted. He ate just a little tonight and is now resting.
I think starting tommorrow I will cook for him light food (boiled chicken and rice, or sweet potatoes) until he gets better.

Thank you for all your replies, and if you have any other advice for me, please tell me what else I could do to help him feel better, because it breaks my heart to see him ill


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## pupresq

Glad to hear it's under control. My friend's dog showed similar symptoms it turned out their dog had gotten into rat poison(they think a dying rat came in their yard or there was something under their rental house) and was bleeding out internally. Tess survived but she almost didn't. Very scary. If they'd waited she would not have so I'm glad you played it safe. 

Poor Safir. I hope he feels better soon!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yikes. You did a good job! Glad he's doing better. 

What tests can they do/will they do to confirm a stomach ulcer?


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## WiscTiger

I would have to go diving into paper records but one time DeeDee was give a medication that they give to humans for bleeding ulcers. 

If the Vet suspected a food allergy, what is the protein source in the food you are feeding now? If it is Chicken then you might want to try something different and if it has rice then I would try potato or sweet potate. I think home cooking until you dog gets back on her paws is a good thing.


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## dobricans

He has been on Yams LR since they took Eukanuba LR off the market, and since then, I noticed he hasn't been eating so well. So I started to transition him to California Natural Chicken and Rice 2 days ago, which he's been on before, and he did well.
She said the only accurate way to find out exactly what's wrong is scoping, which was recommended for him before by her an 2 other vets, when he was ill and they never found anything wrong with him. But he got better after I started cooking for him, so we never had it done. We assumed it was the SIBO.
She is running some blood tests to rule out some things I guess. There was so much going on there that I didn't even ask what is the blood test for, but because of his history I think they are checking everything (Sc/CBC/T4 is what the invoice says).
I left $360 there. And even though I'm broke right now, it doesn't even matter. I just want him to be well. And if we have to, we will finally have the scoping done.

The medication they gave him now :
- Flagyl for his diarrhea
- Cerena - antiemetic
- Carafate - acts as a buffer by binding to HCl in 
stomach and forming a viscous, protective barier at the ulcer 
site, preventing further damage
- Pepcid AC- acid reducer


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## The Stig

Oh gosh, I hope it's not gonna turn out as an ulcer. 

Give poor little Safir some soft tummy rubs for me. Poor dude.

You probably need a drink or something after that horrible fright he put you through! 

Glad he is home with you and resting.


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## ldpeterson

Glad he is doing better. How scary!!

I guess the only way to diagnose an ulcer is an endoscopy??

Just a reminder ~ Don't forget to give the Carafate 2 Hours before or 1 hour after all other medications so it doesn't interfere with their absorbtion. 

Hope he feels better soon!!


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## JanH

Just a thought - I know horses are much different than dogs - but a common remedy is offering baking soda. It's cheap, buffers the tummy and unless the vet has a problem with it interfering with meds might be something to try. 
Know of a horse with ulcers - she got a tablespoon twice per day - seemed much more pleasant as she wasn't hurting, ate better and gained weight. Was a nervous type. 

Dogs are a different thing in many ways obviously - but might be worth trying a teaspoon or so ??


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## BowWowMeow

My first gsd had a stomach ulcer from food allergies. I switched over to totally homemade food and ALL of her symptoms went away. This was many years ago before there were all these different food options. 

You can use slippery elm to help heal the ulcer. I would actually use something like this: http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Only-Natural-Pet-GI-Support/999044.aspx


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## ldpeterson

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> 
> You can use slippery elm to help heal the ulcer. I would actually use something like this: http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Only-Natural-Pet-GI-Support/999044.aspx


Carafate works the same as slippery elm. A very very small amount of drug is actually absorbed through the body so side effects and overdosage are extremely rare and usually only occur in people with kidney disease.

Both drugs/herbs (Carafate and Slipper Elm) can block the absorbtion of other medications.

Just wanted to let OP know this so that she/he didn't use both at the same time!!


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## dobricans

Thank you Lisa for the reminder. Noted!







I love this forum, I learn so much here, and people here are so helpfull, and caring. Rx is my specialty, but when I don't know someting I always do my own research (Rx interactions, side efects...) before giving Safir any drugs. The vet did mention giving Carafate 30 min after al the other drugs, and the tech was nice enough to right it on the label









JanH, Lisa is right, Carafate works the same, and for now I will stick to the prescription. I don't want to add to much base either. Especially since he is given an acid reducer also. But I might use it in the future, if he has occasional stomach discomfort. Thanks for the tip.

Ruth, I know what you mean, it seams that Safir always gets better when I start cooking for him when he is ill. I want to cook for him, but I don't know if the time won't be a problem. And I have to look into how to supplement him again, because last time I cooked for him he was still growing, so the supplementation was different, and I remember I used to spend a lot of time on his meals. That is going to be tough now, since I don't really have that much time anymore. But I will definitely cook until he gets better.

Thank you all for your replies, and I will keep checking for tips.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I found this article on vomiting and regurgitation in general, with some info on ulcers. I guess they are not necessarily the same as in humans in terms of what they might be telling us. http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/vomiting.aspx SO there's that scary thought-which I hate to bring up-but always feel like things should be looked at carefully-I know the idea is to go with simple things, but I always want to know what if it's not the simple thing so that I am ready to push for more testing as needed and quickly. 

http://heartspring.net/stomach_ulcer_symptoms.html There is Helicobacter pylori (a dog on IMOM gets that). http://www.petplace.com/dogs/helicobacter-infection-in-dogs/page1.aspx

More on ulcers: http://www.petplace.com/dogs/gastrointestinal-ulcerations-in-dogs/page1.aspx

Are they thinking ulcer or IBD? http://www.petplace.com/dogs/inflammatory-bowel-disease-in-dogs/page1.aspx

Sorry to be more confusing-and I hope you won't need to use these links and this will be an easy quick fix for you and Safir!


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## 3K9Mom

Whew! Glad to hear that Safir is stabilized!

I like Carafate. If you aren't seeing relief shortly, there are options besides the Pepcid. Pepcid (and Tagament, which is often prescribed by regular vets as well), are H2 blockers. (Since you're familiar with pharmacology, I won't go into details.) I like Prilosec, which is a PPI. It was prescribed for my dog who had Gastric Reflux (GERD) by an veterinary internist. Slightly different disorder, yes. But if the Pepcid isn't working, keep that in mind. I know that money is tight, but this is one of those situations where if you find yourself returning to the vet often, you can actually easily save money by going to a specialist (an internist), who sees this sort of condition a lot. 

Endoscopy gives clear answers whereas otherwise we're ultimately always kind of guessing. But if your dog is responding to the medicines (and doesn't suffer from side effects), then the guesses may be correct. But I wouldn't wait too long to scope. Again, that's why sometimes, the specialist is your cheapest course, because you aren't wasting a lot of money hanging out at the regular vet's office just to ultimately decide on the more expensive course of action anyhow. 

Just FYI, http://www.acvim.org/index.aspx?id=244

Something to think about, Pepto has aspirin in it -- very hard on canine stomachs. (Did you mention it to your vet?) So you probably want to keep that for human use only in the future. It's ok in emergencies when dogs have truly explosive or continuous diarrhea; dehydration is a risk and you're far from a vet. But otherwise, it's not a great option for dogs. 

I like cooking for dogs, if that's an option. I'd actually start an immediate food elimination diet, beginning with a protein source that doesn't appear in the kibbles you were feeding at all. Holler if you need info on how to do an elimination diet. You can also do a blood test for food allergies, but they're not perfect (you can get false positives); results take a while to come back; and your pup needs a simple diet to start anyhow. This is a great time for an elimination diet. Then you'll know what he can handle and you can try to find a commercial food that works for you ultimately, if that's what you want. Or you can go the route of cooking or raw, if that's what you want. But you'll have good solid info that you need to choose the direction that's best for you.


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## pupresq

> Quote: He has been on Yams LR since they took Eukanuba LR off the market


Okay, maybe I'm just not familar with Yams dog food, but do you mean _Iams_ LR? If so, that could be part of the problem. I've used donated Iams and Eukanuba for my fosters and actually have had pretty good success with them in spite of them not being the greatest foods out there but I've yet to see either agree with a GSD. 

I've got my GSDs on Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato and all our allergy and irritable bowel issues have gone away. Not saying that particular diet is the way to go for you, but if your dog is eating Iams and having bowel issues, changing that is the first place I'd start.


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## BowWowMeow

yes, my Massie who had the stomach ulcers was on a very simple diet: rice, chicken and potatoes with vitamins and bone meal.


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## dobricans

I just got the results from the blood work, and everything seams fine except that some pancreatic enzymes (Amylase and Lipase) are a little high, which could be secondary to the vomiting. RBCs and WBCs are ok, so he hasn't lost too much blood.
Today there was digested blood in his stools, and he is very lethargic, sleeps a lot. This morning we started with a simple diet - boiled chicken breast with a carrot and rice and a little broth. He eats very little at a time so I will feed him about 3-4 times/ day for a while. I have to get a good vitamin/mineral supplement since all I have for him now is cod liver oil, kelp, and powdered egg shells for Calcium. When he was a puppy and I cooked for him the ratio meat to non-meat was 3:1 or so. Is 2:1 ok now that he is 2 yrs old? And what other supplements should I get ASAP since I already started feeding him cooked. 
I slept 4 hours and I had to wake up @ 6 AM to go to a research conference. I just got back and I didn't have time to do more research on supplements. So any sugestions are appreciated.

Oh and another thing, I scheduled an appointment with an internist for the endoscopy, but only on May 7th. Hopefully we'll get some answers. I can't see him suffer anymore.

The Stig....thank you for the tummy rubs...

Jean....Thank you for the links, I read it all. Interesting about that natural supplement DGL...I'm looking into that.

3K9Mom...thank you for all the helpful info. How can I try different protein sources, when the beef starts at $4/lb, and lamb.....well I don't even know, but $7/lb or so. Maybe I am using to much meat? What ratio are you using when you cook for them? Can you give me and example with ingredients, quantities, supplements and all for one meal?

Pupresq....I did mean Iams LR...sorry about that, when I look back to my posts I see lots of mistakes...I'm just exhausted. Safir did well on Eukanuba actually, until they changed it w/ Iams. That's what I first tried changing his food....didn't work. I will cook at least for a while.

And everyone else, thank you so much for your advice and concern. It's good to know we are not alone in this. It's very appreciated.


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## chjhu

In people it was discovered not so long ago that ulcers are linked to a bacterial infection and people with ulcers are supposed to take antibotics. I wonder if this is the case for dogs.


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## dobricans

Yes, and the bacterium is Helicobacter Pylori. Treatment is triple therapy: 
- antibiotic
- acid reducer
- stomach protector

That's what Safir is taking right now. I still want to go through the endoscopy to find out exactly the underlying cause for his ulcer. It might be Helicobacter Pylori, it might be IBS, I don't even want to think cancer...


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## 3K9Mom

Do you have a Costco, Sams Club or Walmart nearby? I buy chicken for $1.19 per lb and beef for around $2.30-3.00. I can buy (boneless) leg of lamb for approx $3.80/lb. All these at Costco. I know that the other raw feeders buy their meat for even (often far) cheaper. Look at places other than grocery stores (I know people who shop at Asian or Mexican markets). Military commissaries are great options for those in the service. Grocery store meat clearance sections *sometimes* are a good option. I scour grocery store sales ads (though overall, grocery stores aren't a very good place to find deals). If you surf over the the Raw Thread, you can find info that could be helpful, whether you cook or feed the meat raw. 

For an elimination diet, you're just going to feed ONE food (a protein source) for about 3 weeks. Once you are certain your dog can tolerate that, you add another. Often owners will add in a grain (unless they intend to feed a grain-free diet). That lasts 3 weeks. Then add another food (another protein source). Then add another food. That's how you build a diet that you are certain is created of foods that your dog can safely eat. Of course, as soon as you see any signs of allergic reactions or intolerance (itchiness, redness, ear infections, gastric distress, etc), you stop feeding the new food. Wait about a week or two (until all symptoms subside completely), then try another new food. 

During this time, no treats or snacks made of anything other than the foods currently on his diet, no supplements unless you know _exactly _ what's in them. Rigidity is your friend. 

Yes, a diet of exclusively one food for an extended period of time is not balanced. But feeding the same food for a few weeks won't harm your dog long-term. And it's the ONLY way to definitively ensure what he is and is not allergic to. 

Or, look at kibbles intended for kids with allergies. These have more limited ingredients. Pupresq's suggestion of Natural Balance Fish and Sweet Potato is a excellent one. You can find that at Petco as well as many smaller holistic pet stores. It's reasonably priced as well.


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## 3K9Mom

> Originally Posted By: MIHAYes, and the bacterium is Helicobacter Pylori.


Ok, but we can't make the jump from human pathology to dog pathology in this case. 


_Chronic vomiting is a common gastrointestinal complaint in dogs and cats, and is often linked to chronic gastritis; spiral bacteria have been suggested as one etiologic factor for chronic gastritis (Guilford and Strombeck 1996). Spiral-shaped microorganisms were observed originally as early as the end of the 19th century within the stomachs of animals (Rappin 1881). Rappin (1881) found helicobacters in the gastric mucosa of a dog, and his work was confirmed by Bizzozero (1893) and Salomon (1896) in dogs, cats, and rats. These bacteria were first named Spirillum (Rappin 1881) or Spirochete (Lockard and Boler 1970), then they were classified Campylobacter, and now they belong to the genus Helicobacter (Owen 1998). At least four Helicobacter species may colonize the canine and feline stomach: Helicobacter felis. What has not been clarified is whether any one Helicobacter species is more pathogenic than another, or whether a mixed infection differs from that of one species.....*Dogs are not found to be naturally colonized with human Helicobacter pylori (formerly Campylobacter pylori)*....Human H. pylori has been studied keenly for the past 15 years since its culture from man in 1982 and the discovery that it may cause gastritis (Warren 1983, Marshall 1983). Later, it was demonstrated that H. pylori plays an important role in the etiology of human dyspepsia, gastritis, and gastroduodenal ulceration (Marshall and Warren 1984, Goodwin et al 1986, Graham 1989, Sipponen et al 1993), and is a risk factor for gastric carcinoma and lymphoma (Parsonnet et al 1991, Sipponen et al 1992). Interest in canine and feline gastric helicobacters began to increase a few years ago when the strong association of H. pylori in man with gastric diseases became evident and universally accepted, and at present, these bacteria are under intensive study. with gastric diseases became evident and universally accepted, and at present, these bacteria are under intensive study.

*Colonization of the gastric mucosa of dogs and cats with large spiral helicobacters is common* (Weber et al 1958, Henry et al 1987, Geyer et al 1993, Hermanns et al 1995, Eaton et al 1996, Yamasaki et al 1998). 

(Emphasis mine)

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/ela/kliin/vk/happonen/introduction.html _ 

So these bacteria appear to be common in dogs' stomachs and they're not the same as human-ulcer causing bacteria. That's data to be considered. 

And, IF we DO assume that the bacteria are similar, then we should look at all the data on H. Pylori: 

Acc to the Mayo Clinic, H. Pylori isn't the only cause of ulcers though, at least in humans. Non-steroidal anti-inflammatories and stress often still play a role. (So does nicotine, but I'm assuming your pup doesn't have a two-pack a day habit. Unless he's *snacking* on someone else's cigarettes? He doesn't gobble cigarette butts on walks does he?) (I used to pet-sit a Pomeranian with that habit; that's why it comes to mind...)

Any idea why your dog vomits after meals? (Stress? Other issues?)Does he take NSAIDs (incl aspirin or Pepto) on a regular basis? 

Just stuff to consider. (I always like to consider ALL the info that's out there -- and hopefully rule some of it out -- even if it's kind of overwhelming at times...)


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## dobricans

3K9Mom, thank you for the tips on meat "hunting" . I do have a BJ's membership and I buy meat there a lot. So by the price of the chicken I understand you buy legs not breast, right? I've been getting chicken breast for him.

Also, this is very good info and reliable sources. It doesn't rule out a similarity between the Human Helicobacter Pylori and the helicobacter found in dogs, though, and that's what I was trying to say, it's possible that there is a similarity.

I like to explore all possibilities and consider any possible cause too, that's why I love this forum, everyone had different experiences with their dogs, and knowledge in different areas, so everyone who replied brought something new to the table. It really helps to rule out different things.

No one smokes in the house and he never gobbles on anything on walks. "Leave it" means leave it! And even if a leave a roasted chicken on the table and leave the house he will not touch it.

I never said he vomits after meals. I actually said he vomits bile sometimes when he doesn't eat, that's all, and this was the 1st time he vomited blood after refusing a meal.

He is never given NSAIDS, this was the first time I gave him Pepto, even though I bought it a while ago when the vet recommended it to give him occasionally when he has stomach discomfort.

Stress? NO Way....he is the happiest dog...he loves everyone, loves when guests come to visit, loves to play, he is active, never alone for more than 3 hours...He is just overall a happy dog...the only time I see him sad is when I know he is not feeling well.

So...I really tried and considered different possibilities, and you are right, it's a good start, but all of this were ruled out...
That's why it didn't take me long to elect the endoscopy, I feel that there is not much else I can rule out...and in the past Safir had gone through months of illness, we spent thousands of $$ to find out what was wrong, seen 2 vets and a specialist, they all ran all the tests they could think of....never found anything except elevated Folate. But his symptoms, back then, were a bit different. When I think back now at all the money we spent....we should've done the endoscopy much sooner. But because he got well and remained well for a long period of time, we didn't.
Well, now it's time...


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## 3K9Mom

Good. The more things we can rule out, the better. (You're right. I misread the vomiting bile statement as "after meals." I read too fast.







) More info is always better. I like going in to my vet (especially a specialist) with a list of all the things I've ruled out and a list of questions. This way, I can tell them upfront "here's stuff I've ruled out." (So they don't have to go through their thousands of questions. They're used to dealing with owners who often don't know and haven't done any research. Or if they've done research, they don't frequently understand the entirety of what they've read.). 

Then, we can get down to business with the things we haven't ruled out and issues that my regular vet hasn't thought of, and issues I didn't know to think of (One of my BFs is a physician, so I've often run stuff by her ahead of time too. Every port in a storm, I always say!) 

Yes, I do feed legs mostly. My guy has a history of SIBO, but the extra amount of fat in dark meat vs white meat hasn't been an issue for him. And he likes the "drumstick" shape for eating.









Well, good luck til you can get in to get the scope done. Let us know what it shows. One quick thought -- ultrasound shows masses (including sterile masses), which sometimes burst. Ultrasound is cheaper and often quicker to schedule. Not to replace the scope. But if you can't get in for the endoscopy soon, that might get you an answer fast. The suddenness of the vomiting makes me a tiny bit suspicious about the ulcer diagnosis. 

I'm not quite sure why...but I'm a bit hesitant to accept that entirely, from way over here, 3400 miles away, without ever seeing your dog...







Internet diagnosing. Such an inexact science.


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## dobricans

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> 
> Well, good luck til you can get in to get the scope done. Let us know what it shows. One quick thought -- ultrasound shows masses (including sterile masses), which sometimes burst. Ultrasound is cheaper and often quicker to schedule. Not to replace the scope. But if you can't get in for the endoscopy soon, that might get you an answer fast. The suddenness of the vomiting makes me a tiny bit suspicious about the ulcer diagnosis.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why...but I'm a bit hesitant to accept that entirely, from way over here, 3400 miles away, without ever seeing your dog...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Internet diagnosing. Such an inexact science.


Ok...now you're scaring me...so what I did is I called back the animal hospital and changed the appointment from May7th to April 29th. A day after my birthday (what a birthday present!) and the first day of finals....Poor Safir, he just turned 2...what a birthday present for him!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

You're doing great doing all the reading-it's really overwhelming. I think it sounds like you have your lists started of all the things it can be and then you can have the vets rule things out. 

Then with all of that, go with your gut (no pun) because sometimes they poo poo (again, no pun) us. 

I can ask the IMOM person about her dog's "helicopters" as everyone there calls it. He's got a host of problems and she is a very active (and truly amazing) pet owner. 

Oh-did they/could they do an x-ray before scoping? 

Then one other supplement that I consider a miracle one is DMG. I don't know if it would be good for anything in this case, but am going to start hitting Nina hard with it and to keep your mind off the scary stuff, it's an interesting supplement to research-it's history, use in people, horses, etc. 

XOXO to Safir.


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## 3K9Mom

Sorry. Didn't mean to scare you. A mass (which could be anything from a fibroma to a polyp) isn't better or worse than ulcer (it just kind of depends). Masses aren't always malignant tumors, and from what I've read (and seen), stomach cancer runs more frequently in older dogs, and GSDs aren't a high-risk breed. 

I was just kind of thinking aloud here. (My 12 year old non GSD dog with GERD turned out to have sterile mass in her stomach. Not a malignant tumor. Just a lump of unknown etiology. That's what led me in that direction.) The reason why I mentioned it is that I like to know asap. I think I'm probably one of the most impatient people on this board when it comes to stuff like this. I want to know and I want to have every answer right now. (Actually, knowing yesterday is preferable, but that's not really possible.) 

That's why I was just thinking that if you wanted more info sooner rather than later (and where I live, scopes tend to be harder to schedule than ultrasounds), an ultrasound might give you *some* more information while you waited. 

So, I'm sorry if I scared you. I didn't mean to. Look at it this way: You could get incredibly good news for your birthdays. My GSD is almost exactly Safir's age. I would be a COMPLETE wreck. (I would be a complete wreck if this were my 15 year old girl too). I'm sorry if I made you more worried. That wasn't my intention.


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## 3K9Mom

Oh, when I said I'm one of the most impatient people here...Jean is one of the others. She's been in the trenches often and long. Listen to her wise words.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think it was...she's kind of mean...














NO! I know we all want that information but we don't want that information, ya know what I mean?

Maybe too people can describe both the procedures to make it a little less nerve wracking or point out things that they wish they'd known. I mean, people ask about x-rays, so a scope is definitely something I'd want to learn about-I have no idea. 

For a heart ultrasound Anna was kind of on her back and she was very nervous but was okay (other than pooping-which they said was normal). For Kramer's belly ultrasound, he was panicked and thought we were going to kill him and struggled and I thought it was going to kill him (14 then). She said very common for GSDs and Chows to have that problem of going belly up. I had him shaved at my vet office before we went to reduce the stress. They put them on their back and have this cushiony thing to hold them in. That's all I got on the U/S without specific questions. 

I just feel bad and will babble until you stop me...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomOh, when I said I'm one of the most impatient people here...Jean is one of the others. She's been in the trenches often and long. Listen to her wise words.










And I said you were mean!







You post the kind of stuff that makes us think and then makes us ask GOOD questions-the kind of questions-whether it's about problem or procedure, that help our dogs. Muy importante! And thank you!


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## 3K9Mom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was...she's kind of mean...


Yes. I am heartless...but just to Jean. To MIHA, I tried to be nice, and I truly am sorry that I upset you.



> Quote:She said very common for GSDs and Chows to have that problem of going belly up.


 Really? {Making note to self. And making note to crazy male GSD who sleeps on his back every night.} That's good to know when I'm dispensing my usual cruel advice.







Seriously, I really didn't realize that. 



> Quote: I just feel bad and will babble until you stop me...


Ok. Stop. I will too. 

MIHA, let us know when you have more info. Or if your pup's condition changes. We're here. Anytime.


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## ldpeterson

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> Maybe too people can describe both the procedures to make it a little less nerve wracking or point out things that they wish they'd known. I mean, people ask about x-rays, so a scope is definitely something I'd want to learn about-I have no idea.


Annabelle had an endoscopy and so did Maiya. Both cases were uneventful. Dog took nap, endoscope was run through the esophagus into the stomach and upper part of the small bowel. Biopsies of any suspicious areas were taken and sent off. Dog woke up. 

I was hoping to get some answers from Annabelle's scope but we really didn't. All vet found was some inflammation and diagnosed her with IBD. Hopefully your dog's endoscopy will reveal the problem. Maiya's scope wasn't for diagnostic procedure but to place her feeding tube. 

I'm not going to tell you don't worry because your going to anyways.







However, I want to remind you that there are 1000 things it could be and not all of them are serious. I would be far more concerned about dark, tarry looking blood being vomited than bright red specks of blood. Although either would concern me of course.









Keep us posted on her progress!!


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## 3K9Mom

> Originally Posted By: mamagoose
> Annabelle had an endoscopy and so did Maiya. Both cases were uneventful. Dog took nap, endoscope was run through the esophagus into the stomach and upper part of the small bowel. Biopsies of any suspicious areas were taken and sent off. Dog woke up.


This was my experience with the scope as well. Snooze-fest for the dog. I'm surprised that *I* didn't develop an ulcer waiting though.


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## pupresq

> Quote: Yes, a diet of exclusively one food for an extended period of time is not balanced.


Not to threadjack but that's something that worries me with my pups. They're on the venison and sweet potato and doing well but I do wonder if that's really enough and balanced long term. I really respect your opinion and would be interested in what you think. 



> Quote: I want to know and I want to have every answer right now. (Actually, knowing yesterday is preferable, but that's not really possible.)


Tell me about it! It makes me a good scientist but definitely detracts from any semblance of zen go-with-the-flow anywhere in my life. There must be answers! To the library Batman!!! 

When Grace suddenly dropped a lot of weight and started having tarry bloody stools the Internet and I had her diagnosed with everything from a thyroid tumor to pancreatic cancer. Many tests, scans, pokes, prods, and other vet visits later, we still don't really have an actual diagnosis. However, feeding her the limited ingredient diet seems to help (even though her food allergy bloodwork didn't show any allergies). Nice poops, weight is back on, no blood -> mom is happy if still a little perplexed. It's been several years, so I guess whatever it was is better.

My hope is that Safir's got a diet related irritated GI and he will be cured by new food and live happily ever after. Our thoughts are with you guys; I know the waiting sucks!


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## dobricans

Thank you Jean, thank you 3K9Mom and thank you Mamagoose!!!

And 3K9Mom, don't worry, I'm not that sensitive...you didn't upset me , you just scared me...in a good way...good enough to push the appointment weigh up









And, yeah...you are all so mean here.....it almost makes me wish there were more mean people in the world









Also, wanted to let you know I am excited because Safir is a little more playful, he ate 3 small meals today (cooked) and he will have another small one in about an hour. I just took him out and he had a perfect poop. Just one day of homecooked food...and already improved ...the drugs might have helped too.....but I want to believe it's my home cooking









Anyway, I want you to know your support and help means a lot in times like this!

I will keep you posted. I should go study for my finals, I'm already behind...


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## dobricans

The anaesthesia is what scares me... and they said I have to leave him there for most of the day, that it's not a fast procedure.
I will be so stressed that whole day.....by the time I pick him up I will have to see a doctor for an ulcer...

Could you tell me how much the procedure costs, they wouldn't tell me over the phone.


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## ldpeterson

> Originally Posted By: MIHA
> 
> Could you tell me how much the procedure costs, they wouldn't tell me over the phone.


The procedure cost me around $1200.

If it's any help Maiya was VERY frail when she had her's done. She even aspirated on the table and developed pneumonia. Please don't panic though (LOL) Maiya has an esophageal disorder that makes aspiration 90 times more likely than in a normal dog.









But what I'm saying is that if *she * survived it then I'm sure your baby is going to sail right through.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

OMG. On the price... For an U/S I paid $180. 

I also hate anesthesia and have a whole OCD routine I follow when my dogs have it. It makes me feel better so I don't even get embarassed anymore. 

I remember that about Maiya. That was scary.


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## dobricans

Just to keep you posted. Safir is more energetic, plays, didn't vomit anymore, poop was perfect this morning (except for the sweet potatoe color







). 



> Originally Posted By: mamagoose
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MIHA
> 
> Could you tell me how much the procedure costs, they wouldn't tell me over the phone.
> 
> 
> 
> The procedure cost me around $1200.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that's pretty close to what I expected...Safir's vet mentioned the price a long time ago, but I didn't remember.


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## 3K9Mom

Yes, that's about what mine ran. Around $500ish for the anesthesia, monitoring, the whole shebang. And about $600-700 for the procedure...sounds about right.




> Quote:
> 
> Not to threadjack but that's something that worries me with my pups. They're on the venison and sweet potato and doing well but I do wonder if that's really enough and balanced long term.


The $64,000 question.







Can a dog be on the same dog food his whole life? Many many people (including most vets) say yes. Technically, it should be possible. A *good* food (and I do think that Natural Balance foods are good foods) should be nutritionally balanced and complete. In theory, we humans should be able to exist on Slim Fast and a Centrum tablet our whole lives too. (Although, thinking about it, there are likely mega-dosing issues there...probably should just take the multi-vitamin just twice a week or so.)

The question for me is -- there's balance and complete, and then, there's ideal. How big of a gap is there between the two? I think that depends on the dog. If your pup really can't eat anything else, then the gap, by necessity, is small. Ideal is what she can tolerate. But if she can tolerate *boiled* (because it gets rid of a lot of the fat) chicken and turkey, so much the better. Can you add in boiled beef and lamb? Better yet. And a 1/2 (measured) teaspoonful of organic raw egg? Some raw turkey? (Raw turkey seems easier to handle than many other raw meats. At least, in my experience.) A bit of a simple veggie stew? Now "ideal" is almost perfect! 

BTW, I recommended boiling since your pup is doing well on NB foods which are really low in fat. And since a lot of GSDs have SIBO and pancreas issues, which fat in the diet exacerbates. 

A lot of owners think that it's better to find the one perfect kibble. I don't believe a perfect kibble exists. I prefer to find the one kibble that works best for my dog in that it has the smallest ability to cause any sort of harm (proteins and fats are where they should be for that dog, no inappropriate ingredients for that specific dog, etc), then I supplement with "real" food. That's part of the reason that I like the Natural Balance "allergy" line so much. The proteins and carbs are minimal, so we can add or subtract easily. 

Some people like to rotate kibbles from a variety of manufacturers and with a variety of ingredients. I guess that works if you have a dog that can eat anything. I was blessed with one of those once. But most of my dogs have been otherwise blessed (in the big scheme of things, being able to eat anything isn't really high on my list of qualities in a dog anyhow.







). 

So, if Gracie can't eat anything else, well, she's still eating better than the vast majority dogs in the world. If she can tolerate a few tiny bits of boiled chicken or ground turkey with her kibble, she's off to a good start. (More work for you? Absolutely. But when I started to feed my senior "real" food, her little white face started to turn black again, and her arthritic body started to bound across the yard again. That's why I figure it's always worth a try...tiny increments at a time.) If you don't have time to cook, can you try switching over to NB Fish and Sweet Potato kibble as well? (Most dogs tolerate that formula really well). And then rotate them? 

I do think that "real" food, which has a much higher water content is a bit easier to process than kibble (which is dense and has a lot of different ingredients), especially when we start out with just itty bitty pieces. It's also possible that Gracie had picked up some weird low-grade viral infection, strong enough to get her sick, but not enough that her white cell count skyrocketed (enough to show up in the CBC), and that her body successfully fought it off. 

It's just hard to say. I tend to err on the side of trying new foods -- incredibly cautiously -- but I do try them. I have a strong bias that a variety of natural organic foods is better than processed foods, and I don't want to get my kids stuck in an endless loop of the same old stuff. 

How's that for a non-answer?


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## pupresq

> Quote: How's that for a non-answer?


I'd say it's one of the most helpful non answers I've ever received!







Thanks for taking the time. I don't mind cooking for her and will give that a shot. Her allergy tests didn't show anything but along with the weight loss she had a bunch of skin issues and very very itchy ears. She was eating Solid Gold Hunden Flocken (sp?) when all this happened. Leo hasn't ever had that severe issues but he just always had soft stool - I tried him on a variety of different "premium" foods but always the soft stool. He is doing very well on the NB Venison/SP too and having solid poops for the first time in his life and it's easiest to have them on the same thing. I'm sure he wouldn't mind some boiled meat as well! 

Yeah, I have one of those dogs who can eat anything. Renny, our BC mix pup has a stomach like a tin can. She eats Innova as her food but can eat anything without it appearing to cause her the least problem. She's also incredibly efficient - I mean she maintains a great weight, coat, and energy level on an unbelievably small amount of food. Poor girl!







On the plus side, she's an awesome backpacking companion because she just doesn't need much. Oh if only GSDs were as trouble free!


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## 3K9Mom

Premium foods are incredibly protein- and fat-dense. We can raw-feed puppies and don't have to obsess whether they're getting too much protein/fat/calcium/phosphorous (to name just the major "problem" nutrients). But we can't feed the vast majority of premium foods to pups because it would wreak havoc on their growth. Commercial foods are dense. Think of kibble as super compact little nuggets of nutrients. Canned food, less so, but still jam-packed with nutrition. Some nutrients you may want to offer at any given time; some you may not, but you're kind of stuck with all of them. And with a potency that you don't usually see (on a gram-per-gram basis) in natural food.

One of the first things that new raw feeders (and to some extent home cookers) notice is that their dogs just don't drink anywhere near the amount of water they used to. Natural food is loaded with water. Chicken is simply chicken, and it has a lot of water in it. Turkey is simply turkey (similalry "diluted," compared to any commercial turkey product you'll find). And so on. I look for the best meats I can find (and afford), staying away from stuff I expect is saline-injected or otherwise "messed with." 

VARL and ELISA blood tests are accurate to the extent that the negatives are reliable (for allergies. There can still be sensitivities, like lactose intolerance, that wouldn't show up on the test). So if Gracie didn't test positive, and there's no reason to assume she has developed food allergies, I don't see a reason not to move forward with an abundance of caution.

Did you run the blood test just for foods or did you run the complete panel?


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## dobricans

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> I prefer to find the one kibble that works best for my dog in that it has the smallest ability to cause any sort of harm (proteins and fats are where they should be for that dog, no inappropriate ingredients for that specific dog, etc), then I supplement with "real" food. That's part of the reason that I like the Natural Balance "allergy" line so much. The proteins and carbs are minimal, so we can add or subtract easily.


That is exactly what I have been doing for Safir as well for a long time now. And I always rotate the real food I add to keep it interesting since Safir is such a picky eater. Your advice for pupresq is great and has also helped me remember to rotate more types of meats, since lately I've been stuck on boiled chicken, chicken livers, hamburger (less now- he used to love it, he now refuses it almost everytime) and canned tuna. I try not to use canned tuna too often, maybe once every week, or every two weeks, and lately I've been using the more expensive premium wild tuna. I will try lamb and beef more often too. Today I cooked a special stew for him ( I even had a little...it was that good







) with olive oil, beef, carrots, potatoes and some fresh parsley. He loved it! (...his poop was better than I've seen it in a long time too).
I think I am going to try NB allergy formula for Safir when I start feeding him dry again. Now I'm stuck with an open almost full 30 lbs bag of California Natural that I just bought and started switching him to, when he started being ill. I'm afraid to feed it to him now. Even though in the past he did excellent on it, he might be allergic to something in it now. So if anyone lives close to me and wants it, I would gladly give it to someone who can use it...it's a fresh, just opened 30 lb bag of California Natural Chichen and Rice.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Could he have gotten into anything at his birthday party? Just a crazy thought (or been exposed to anything from that puppy-second crazy thought)?

I am glad to hear he is doing better!!!!


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## dobricans

Jean, you know..I did consider both of those possibilities. For his birtday he couldn't have gotten into anything...he's just not a big eater anyway, and he doesn't do that...he doesn't get into things, he's a very well behaved boy when it comes to that. The only thing he had is his birthday cake which was a Natural Choice (Nutro) Healthy Desserts - Pumpkin pie.
I did ask my neighbour the next day if he could have gotten something from the puppy, because after they left he seamed a little lethargic, but maybe he was just exhausted. She said the vet didn't find anything wrong with the puppy when she took him the day before.

He is better because he doen't vomit anymore and his poop is perfect, but he doesn't eat enough. He eats very little, but at least he eats some.
We'll know more after the endoscopy. Tuesday we have the appointment for an exam with the internist. The girl who made the appointment on the phone said it'a possible to do the endoscopy the same day but not for sure. We'll keep our fingers crossed!


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## ldpeterson

We did our endoscopy the same day. You may want to withhold food for 12 hours the day before so that you have that option if they offer it. Obviously they are not going to do it if he has eaten.

I'm glad that he's feeling better!


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## dobricans

I'm wondering if thay'll do it if he's still on medication.


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## ldpeterson

I don't see why not. Both of mine were on several different medications at the time.


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## dobricans

Ok...I think I spoke too soon...yesterday he was improving, I thought he was on the right track, but today he seams to be getting worse again. He is refusing boiled beef, boiled chicken, he barely had a little cottage cheese mixed with a tbs of fat free yougurt. It's all I convinced him to eat so far today. Doesn't drink much (but then again he is also not playing, or eating dry food...or any food for that mather) He is extremely lethargic, sleeps all day, seams disoriented, almost like he was high. Didn't pee much today and didn't poo at all today, since last night, he has gas and smells really, really...interesting, kinda like steamed cabbage, but much stronger (sorry to be so descriptive), and he didn't eat anything like that. He just sleeps, sleeps...and I can see it in his eyes when he does wake up for a few minutes that he is feeling miserable. When he is awake is constantly asks to go out, but never does anything. 
This is driving me crazy...my heart is breaking to see him like this. Tuesday is not coming soon enough ...


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## WiscTiger

Sorry Safir is not doing well.

Are you give Pepsid and Carafate? If yes I read on a drug site that it is recommended not to give the Antiacide 1/2 hour before or 1/2 after the Carafate. Also the most common side effect in humans is Constipation. 

Did you check with the Vet, some medications do not do well with Dairy products.


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## dobricans

I give Carafate 30min -1 hr after the rest of the medication, because Carafate would interfere with the absorption of other drugs if given at the same time.
I gave him a little cottage cheese after he had been miserable the whole day and didn't eat anything else. I didn't know what else to do. Since my last post, he had a few bites of boiled chicken and carrots with the broth. He seamed to like it, had a few bites, I got really excited...then suddenly he stopped and walked away. It seams that even if he likes it he cannot take in more than a few bites. I hand fed him a few more bites.


I read about the side effects of Carafate but given the fact that Safir doesn't eat much and his last poop was last night....I'm not extremely worried about that yet, I guess there's not much to poop. And the side effects are very rare, Carafate is well tolerated.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Has he had x-rays?

I feel so bad. The not peeing-I would maybe call the vet office (or wherever) and just run this stuff by them. If possible...or I may be overworrying...


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## BowWowMeow

Oh no, poor guy! I hope he's not having a reaction to the meds. It sounds like he's feeling nauseous?


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## BowWowMeow

In the coconut oil thread it says it's good for ulcers. If he does have an ulcer then that might be something good to add to his food.


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## 3K9Mom

Cottage cheese has lactic ACID in it. (It's what creates the curds). We don't want to add any acids to a stomach with ulcers. I'd back that off from Safir's diet immediately. 

Poor kid.










This looked interesting. Cabbage smell is the smell of sulfur. 

10. Stinky stools - stools normally have an unpleasant odor, but one that is recognized as fairly common or 'typical'. Stools that have an extremely bad, out- of-the-ordinary odor may be associated with certain medical conditions. Foul-smelling stools also have normal causes, most notably diet. Foul smelling stools may occur in conjunction with floating stools. 

*Extremely foul smelling stools can be due to bacteria overgrowth. Some bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide which has a characteristic rotten egg smell (horrible stench). It can also be the putrifying debris in the gut. Ammonia smelling stools can be attributed to bacteria overgrowth or nitrogen being insufficiently digested or improperly metabolized. *When food is insufficiently digested, the non-absorbed food can then become food for harmful bacteria, or just putrefy, in the gut. Either of these leads to toxins being released in the body.

*Sulfur smell - a few people noted that if they eat more sulfur containing foods and have a yeast problem, the yeast may feed on the sulfur foods and get worse. These cases also say an increase in yeast with sulfur supplements. *Other supplements reported to produce a smell when not absorbed and metabolized well are selenium, glutathione, and SAMe.


http://www.enzymestuff.com/rtstools.htm


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## dobricans

He is a little better tonight, he ate a whole chicken breast and drank a lot of broth. It picked him right up, and he was ready to play...for now...but I don't know for how long though...



> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomCottage cheese has lactic ACID in it. (It's what creates the curds). We don't want to add any acids to a stomach with ulcers. I'd back that off from Safir's diet immediately.


Yes, but so does yogurt and kefir, and recent findings show it is beneficial in ulcers. If the name of the compound contains the word ACID in it it doesn't necessarily mean it will decrease the pH in the stomach. Protein's building blocks are amino *ACIDS*, right? If we would only look at the words separate we wouldn't feed chicken or beef either then. Here is some interesting findings, I'm learning a lot in this process:

_Fermenting Milk May Help Ulcer Sufferers
~ November 2000 No.119 ~
A big breakthrough occurred several years ago when it was finally proven that a bacteria - Helicobacter pylori - was the cause of most stomach ulcers. Up until that time, many factors including stress and diet were thought to be the agents that led to ulcers. Even before the cause of the disease was identified, it was common practice for medical doctors to prescribe milk to ulcer patients as a way of reducing the symptoms of ulcers. Once the bacteria was identified, antibiotics have become the most common form of treatment. Recent findings indicate that fermented milk may offer an alternative to antibiotics.

Milk has a very strong buffering capacity - that is when milk enters the stomach, the acid level of the stomach is reduced for a short period of time. Before the discovery of Helicobacter pylori, it was felt that high acid levels in the stomach were the cause of damage to the stomach wall that occurred with ulcers.

Fermenting milk with bacteria, such as occurs when yogurt or kefir is produced, produces many biologically active compounds that may be beneficial to health. Many of the bacteria in yogurt and kefir are termed lactic acid bacteria because, when they are put in milk, they produce lactic acid. Recent findings from the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada seem to show that fermented milk contains something - perhaps lactic acid - that is effective in killing Helicobacter pylori. Lactic acid is only one of many possible candidates. During fermentation, milk proteins are broken down and bio-active peptides (chains of amino acids found in protein) can be formed. Whatever is causing the effects, it is only found in milk fermented with a specific bacteria which is unfortunately not a bacteria that is currently found in yogurt._

http://www.medicinalfoodnews.com/vol04/issue8/ulcer


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## dobricans

Oh , I forgot to mention, the article you've attached about the stools is very interesting.
Problem with him is, his stools have been perfect for the last 2 days (and tonight also- he finally pooped), small, nicely formed and I did not feel stinky smell at all, like I always do when he's on commercial foods. It's only the gas that smells really bad. It seamed to have improved towards this evening, not much gas going on now.


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## WiscTiger

Glad to hear that you boy ate some chicken and drank some broth. Dehydration is always a concern of mine when I have a sick dog. 

Fingers crossed...


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## dobricans

Yes, dehydration is what worried me the most too.
Today he was a little better, ate a little more, and drank plenty of broth (fat scooped out and diluted with water). No gas, not as lethargic as yesterday.

Tomorrow is the big day, we hope to find out what's wrong with him.


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## WiscTiger

I am glad to hear he is eating a little more and having some broth. Yum, my dogs always like that broth. I would rather have to take them out potty a few extra times a day than have a dehydrated dog.

Sending good thoughts.


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## dobricans

You won't believe this......I for one, was very surprised...

Got to the specialist, he asked lots of questions, looked at his history, lastest as well as older blood test results, he gave Safir a thorough examination...and recommended we wait with the endoscopy and first do a blood test for........READY???............ *ADDISON'S DISEASE * ... I've learned about Addison's Disease in humans...and it is very rare (1 in 100,000 people). I was shocked to hear he suspects Safir has it. But for the first time someone had some idea what they are looking for. He seamed very knowledgeble, and said he really wanted to rule this disease out before putting Safir through the unnecessary invasive endoscopy.
So, we agreed, I waited there, test took 3 hours. We will know the result next week , and it will be the longest week ever...If Addison't disease is ruled out, we will proceed with ultrasound and x-rays to take a closer look at lymph nodes and other structures and possibly endoscopy as a last resort.
For now is is eating and drinking better, he is more energetic and playfull, but he lost quite a few pounds. He was 84 lbs and is now 78.5lbs. I will continue to cook for him and feed him 4 small meals a day until we have a diagnosis.


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## dobricans

Here's a link about Addison Disease in dogs:
http://www.addisondogs.com/addisons/whatis.html

I am excited because , there might be a light...for the first time in 2 years. Safir was ill most of his life. On and off, we spent thousands of $$ on tests, and spent so much time in vet offices and animal hospitals, Safir feels it's a normal part of his life. 

It kinda' makes sense because all of his life Safir had ups and downs like they describe in Addison's disease and no one was able to give a diagnosis. Addison's it's so hard to identify because it has symptoms common to many other illnesses , especially GI disturbances, lethargy, depression. Even though it is something he will have for the rest of his life, I would rather know and deal with it the propper way, then live in darkness and frustration.
And I hope Safir's life will be a lot easier once we know.


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## 3K9Mom

That's why I love specialists. They don't think outside the box. They live in a whole other world of boxes. And spheres and pyramids.









Hoping you figure this out soon.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

WOW. Get out. That is just not even something that you'd consider! 3K9Mom is right about that sphere and pyramid thing. And I am glad he's feeling better!


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## dobricans

I know, that what I said. I would've never thought of that. We are still waiting for the results though...

Tonight a miracle just happened. Safir took me to the pantry to let me know he was hungry...I had a sample bag of Natural Balance with Duck, allergy formulation....so I decided to try it...he ate the whole sample bag, just like that, with nothing else...he never eats dry food alone, always mixed with some other protein...I can't believe it! He must really feel much better. Tomorrow I'm buying a bag of Natural Balance


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Well, juts got a call back from the animal hospital and Safir doesn't have Addison Disease. Back to square one.....
It seams that we wil have the endoscopy done after all, but only next week because the internist is out of town til then.

Meanwhile.....I thought Safir was getting better, but today he's not eating again, he's having diarrhea and is very lethargic. I feel like we are never going to win this battle.


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## 3K9Mom

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Don't stress that it wasn't Addisons. I know you were hoping for the quick diagnosis. But every disease you rule out is a good thing. Addisions is the flip-side of Cushings disease, and they're both kind of hard to manage. So it's a GOOD thing that Safir doesn't have it, even though mystery ailments are terrible, especially when our kids are so sick. I know. My kids never come down with something simple (Zamboni went through a bout once, which included Addisons-like symptoms, including the tremors. She didn't have it either.







I was glad.) 

Appropo of nothing, JFK had Addisons. It's a tough illness. 

But I HATE mystery ailments. (







My GSD has one right now.)

Remind me again, did you run a TLI-Cobalamine Folate level? Diarrhea, lethargy, loss of appetite.....









Your regular vet might be able to run one of these tests while your internist is gone. (Did I mention that I HATE waiting around?)


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

I am glad to hear it's not Addison's. Perhaps the kibble from last night upset his tummy? Kibble is hard on delicate digestive tracts (Rafi puked last night after getting about 20 pieces of Orijen fish kibble which he's never had before). Can you stick with homemade until he feels better?


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*



> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomDon't stress that it wasn't Addisons. I know you were hoping for the quick diagnosis. But every disease you rule out is a good thing.
> 
> But I HATE mystery ailments. (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My GSD has one right now.)
> 
> Remind me again, did you run a TLI-Cobalamine Folate level? Diarrhea, lethargy, loss of appetite.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your regular vet might be able to run one of these tests while your internist is gone. (Did I mention that I HATE waiting around?)


I know my post might have sounded like I'm disappointed... you're right, every disease we rule out is a good thing, and I am happy Safir doesn't have it. It's just really, really frustrating, and I know I could help him fell better if I knew what it was....for now we both suffer .
I don't know if you are familiar with Safir's history. Ever since he was a puppy he was ill, on and off. Every time he had an episode (which would usually last for about 4-6 months) we would go to the vet, then the specialist, run every blood test in the book, x-rays, detailed stool tests (sent out), urine....I mean everything. The vets always get to a point where they don't know how to help us anymore and recommend scoping. Every time he has an episode, same story. But somehow after starting to cook for him for a while he would get better, and then later he could go back on kibbles mixed with real food, and everything would be fine for a while. So, never did the scoping. Then he's well for a few months....then mysterious illness is back...
TLI Cobalamin Folate levels were checked every time. The only thing that showed high was Folate. So that's why we concluded that all those episodes were because of SIBO., and thought that we'll whatch his diet and when he has another episode I will cook for him, give him Tylan (the only antibiotic he responded to) for a few weeks, and pray he would get better. But this time was different because of the blood vomit. When the vet told me she would do some blood tests, I thought she would do Folate too since she knew his history, I don't know why she didn't. Maybe she didn't thing this symptoms have anything to do with SIBO? My husband is just picking up a copy of his blood results, I didn't even see it yet. She just told me everything was fine. If I take him in for Folate TLI, by the time I get the results he is in the endoscopy, so I think I will wait. It's hard to....but have I mentioned I've spent $700 so far and will spend at least $2400 more if I follow the treatment plan the specialist gave me? Oh, and also....I have to spend part my student loan to pay for it, and then we'll all eat rice and...well no 'and'...just rice ...for 6 months









Ruth, I will feed him homecooked food until we have a diagnosis. I felt bad, because I suspected that the kibbles is what made him worse...bad mom!!! No more! At least until we know what is wrong with him.
I am in the middle of my finals, and instead of studying, I cook for him all day, do research online, spend a lot of time on the forum and worry about him....I went to my first exam unprepared, with just 4 hours of studying...I passed....whew...I used to be such a perfectionist, nothing less that an A was good enough, but since Safir got ill.....all I wanna do is pass...good enough for me, if I can spend more time to take care of Safir.

I scheduled to drop him of Wed, May 7th at 8 am


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Awwwww...

This is rough. 

Has he had x-rays? I was reading what he has had done (kitchen sink!!!) but wasn't sure. I think he's having them on Wednesday though, right? 

I was reading Camper's thread and wanted to make sure he's had the giardia antigen test done (which is the more accurate one-but still doesn't sound completely accurate) and then I was thinking about maybe that heliobacter stuff again. I can't remember what you have/haven't done! 

To make you feel slightly better-it's a fasting day here because THREE dogs have thrown up. Kramer, Bruno and either Ava or Anna (heaven forbid-I went to the bathroom-and came out to mystery vomit). SO-fast today and bland tomorrow and hope it is just a bug. I think it's spring bacteria coming to life all over the place.


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANAwwwww...
> 
> This is rough.
> 
> Has he had x-rays? I was reading what he has had done (kitchen sink!!!) but wasn't sure. I think he's having them on Wednesday though, right?
> 
> I was reading Camper's thread and wanted to make sure he's had the giardia antigen test done (which is the more accurate one-but still doesn't sound completely accurate) and then I was thinking about maybe that heliobacter stuff again. I can't remember what you have/haven't done!


Yes, Wed morning I am dropping him off for imaging (X-rays and Ultrasound) and endoscopy if the imaging doesn't reveal anything.
In the past, when he had episodes he was tested for Giardia, Clostridium, Cryptosporidium - all were negative; had a malabsorption profile done- it was fine. Fecal smear, also fecal pathogen screen......etc...all negative. Had X-rays every time. They never found anything wrong with him, yet he was feeling horrible. But he wasn't tested for any of these now, because he was repeatedly tested for them before, was always negative, and I feel like I would just be going around and around in circles. I hope that Wed we'll have some answers, if not, we are cnsidering taking him to UFVMC in Gainesville. For now he is stable, he feels a little better, hasn't vomited, eats 4 small meals a times a day, he's a litlle more alert, plays a little, but gets tired easily. I actually think his coat looks a little better, and gained back a few of the lost pounds, but he's been itchy for the last couple of days, his paws especially. I've been feeding him some NB lamb and rice roll, he loves it, could that be what's causing the itch? His poop is better, not good, but not too bad either, a little more formed, not liquidy, just soft stools. I also want to have that test done for allergies. I think 3K9Mom mentioned it. What's the name? Is it accurate and do you know how much it costs? Because with all the expenses now, we have to figure out if we have it done now. I also want to have his hips x-rayed since he's going to be under anesthesia, because last time, at 1 year, his hips were borderline, and I'd do it now, so I don't have to put him under again just for x-rays.

.....I've been going through his medical history and all the lab results, trying to make any sense of all this....I am loosing all hope.


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## DancingCavy

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*








I'm sorry to hear that you still have no answers for Safir. I can understand how frustrating it is. It is possible the Natural Balance roll is bothering him. I know my mutt has had digestive issues with it in the past.

*HUGS* to you and Safir. Hope you can put a finger on what's bothering him soon and get him back to his old self.


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## 3K9Mom

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

The allergy blood test is either ELISA or VARL (they're pretty much the same. VARL can be tested while the patient is still on antihistaimes, whereas with Elisa, the patient has to be off antihistamines for a couple weeks. I like ELISA better. But neither is perfect). There are false positives but the negatives are good. So you can just assume all the positives are foods to stay away from and live like that. Or you can use the test as a jumping-off point to then start the food-elimination diet. 

I don't know how much this costs for just food allergies becuase I ran both food and environmental and both cost me around $220. I think food alone would have been about $150. 

And there's the skin prick test. That's usually done by a dermatologist. The skin-prick test tests for environmental allergies (which, bad environmental allergies like mold and dust mites CAN really mess up a dog's immune system and shouldn't be overlooked entirely). This test is considered 100% reliable. But it doesn't test for food allergies.


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Thank you *Jamie*, I will cut the NB roll for a while to see if the itchiness stops. It only started the other day, so it wasn't too bad so far.

*3K9Mom* thank you for the info on the allergy tests. I definitely want to do both food and environmental, we might wait until we get the results from imaging and endoscopy, but I am writing down the info. Thanks!


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## jake

*Re: vomiting blood- NOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Just a quick hope for good outcome for you!Thank allmighty no big problems this way with my GSD but would say that my last dog a greyhound rescue almost died from JUST eating loads of GRASS-he looked like a cow prior to his GI bleed.He got through it on a diet of low fat beef rice and 3 transfusions-do I know answer absolutely not.Sending good thoughts your way


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood-*

I dropped him off this morning and I am unpatiently waiting for them to call me ...
I hate leaving him there for the whole day







The house is so empty without him...


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## DancingCavy

*Re: vomiting blood-*

*HUGS*

Hope you can find some answers.


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## Karin

*Re: vomiting blood-*

I'm sorry that you're still in the dark about Safir's health problems. I hope that whatever it is, they can figure out what it is and that it is easily treatable. My prayers are with you both.


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## dobricans

*Re: vomiting blood-RESULTS...*

Dr. Bondi just called me and said it was a good thing we did the endoscopy because the intestine and stomach definitely didn't look normal. He did several biopsies and we are now waiting for the results. He said the intestine's surface was rough covered with bumps everywhere and the stomach was more red than it should be had several small ulcers. He said he bets it's some kind of IBD but we'll know by Monday.
Also, the ultrasound showed an enlarged spleen, but the tissue looked normal. It might be the body fighting the disease, as the spleen usually gets larger when we are ill. He said we shouldn't worry about that much.

For now he said don't change his diet, until we know the results. So I will keep cooking.

My poor litttle man ...I can't wait to go pick him up in about an hour.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!! It means a lot. I will keep you posted on the final diagnosis.


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## 3K9Mom

*Re: vomiting blood-RESULTS...*

Well, we're starting to get answers. More information is always better than less. Crossing toes and fingers over here. 

And saying prayers for good -- easy to repair/treat -- results...


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## DancingCavy

*Re: vomiting blood-RESULTS...*



> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomAnd saying prayers for good -- easy to repair/treat -- results...


I'll second that!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: vomiting blood-RESULTS...*

Oh wow, just saw this. 

Thirding the above thought!!!


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## dobricans

*Re: Safir getting worse again*

Thank you for the good thoughts!

Before the endoscopy I felt that Safir was improving, was eating better, not so lethargic anymore, better poop....well ....after I broght him home, I was expecting him to be tired and still sedated...but he got worse....extreme watery diarrhea, extremely tired, sleeps all day still and it's been 2 days since he had the endoscopy, and I can see it in his eyes again, he feels horrible.

Did anyone experience this after your dog had an endoscopy? I was thinking maybe the endoscopy disturbed things in there and made it worse...???
It looks like we'll only know the results for the biopsies Monday...it feels like forever. Meanwhile I was doing some research on IBD and what I would have to do if it comes back as that. I will probably order that supplement someone here (sorry, I forget who) recommended, 'Only Natural Pet GI Support'.


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## 3K9Mom

*Re: Safir getting worse again*

I've had several dogs that bounced right back after anesthesia. Zamboni demands food within about 3 hours. (She's like me. I come out of anesthesia, sitting in the recovery room, always ask for pizza). My dog who was scoped (who processed anesthesia well) ate two McD's cheeseburgers as soon as the internist said I could feed her food.









(Ok, I know I shouldn't have. But she was hungry and had no appetite for regular food at that point.)

Camper, on the other hand, is a wreck for about a week. It takes forever for all those chemicals to work their way out of his system. Diarrhea, feeling icky, just drained. As a matter of fact, he's a lot like Dh. (My sensitive boys.







)

I'd give Safir a few more days. I don't know for sure if it's the scoping or the anesthesia. But I'm guessing it's the latter. Sensitive GSDs....


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## Brightelf

*Re: Safir getting worse again*

Hugs to you for going through all this.. and sweetieboy Safir, too! My last GSD took quite a few days to process the chemicals from anesthesia, no matter the procedure. As scary as it is to see in his eyes that he isn't feeling well, he will recover in a few days. You are not set back because of this at all, Safir's body just needs time to sort out and flush out the meds. It is a good thing to have the endoscopy done, you will have good definitive results, a game plan-- and that alone will bring comfort. Safir is so lucky to have you. May he be feeling well again, and ready for good, helpful solutions from your vet when those results come in!


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## dobricans

*Re: Safir's results are in*

First I want to thank you all for being here for us when we needed advice. Your support means a lot!









*Now...the results are in*, and it's consistent with 2 possibilities: *Helicobacter* and *mild IBD*. The internist says the IBD might be secondary to the Helicobacter infection, and wants to proceed with treating for Helicobacter first for 2 weeks, and then have a re-examination, and if he doesn't get better, then might continue with treatment for IBD (steroids) which I really hope it doesn't come to. Also TLI and B12 were normal, but Folate was double then it should be. His was 23.6 (ref range is 6.5- 11.5)
He is on Amoxicillin 250mg every 6 hours and Prilosec 20mg once a day for two weeks.
While waiting for the results, I've ordered the Only Natural Pet GI Support for him, but didn't receive it yet. I wanted to show Dr.B the ingredients to consult with him if starting him on it now would be a good idea, he said he doesn't do holistic medicine and doesn't get involved in the natural supplementation of his patients (I thought that was a little weird- otherwise he is really good and knows his stuff). But he did recommend that we hold it for now, and only change one thing at a time, since we want too see if the Rx works. So, I will continue to cook for him since he's been eating much better, and his coat even improved a lot, even though he was on cod liver oil before, and now he's not on any supplements (except for egg shell for calclium and kelp). I though it was interesting how even though I cut off his Omega-3, his coat looks better now on homecooked food.
Otherwise he is better, but still sleeps all day long. He only wakes up to eat and go out. His poop si better too, not perfect but much better. Sometimes he brings a toy to play, fetches it once and then lays down and falls asleep, like he is so exhausted.

If it comes to treating for IBD, any recommendations on what I shoud stay away from, you people out there with IBD experience? I want to be armed with information when Dr.B will gives him the Rx for IBD. But let's just hope the Amoxicillin will do the trick.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Safir's results are in*

OK, know you have some answers. I am not crazy about Antibioitics, but when you need to give them you need to give them. You never know getting rid of the Helicobacter Infection may also straighten out the IBD.
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_helicobacter_infection.html


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Safir's results are in*

Let me know if you want me to ask the nice IMOM lady about her dog's "helicopter" treatment. He may also have IBD (and food allergies and epilepsy). I am glad that something has been identified!


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## dobricans

*Re: Safir's results are in*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANLet me know if you want me to ask the nice IMOM lady about her dog's "helicopter" treatment. He may also have IBD (and food allergies and epilepsy). I am glad that something has been identified!


That would be great if you could. Was her dog diagnosted through endoscopy as well? Did he improve after treatment? What was treatment course she used? Did she have to treat for IBD as well? IBD scares me, I am hoping it's secondary to the Helicobacter infection and it will go away when Helico is cleared.
What do you feed a IBD dog? Is Natural Balance Duck and Potatoes mixed with cooked ok? I have a whole 30lbs bag of California Natural, but I'm afraid to feed that now, since symptoms started while I was changing to it.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Safir's results are in*

Poor Safir. I hope this treatment helps. 

The stuff from Only Natural Pet would definitely be good for IBD. But I've always understood IBD as a catch all for anything they can't really pinpoint but is causing problems in the intestinal track. They diagnosed my cat with that because they couldn't figure anything else out and wanted to put her on steroids.


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## dobricans

*Re: Safir-another question*

Before starting the ABX safir was improving and as soon as I started him on Amoxicillin, things got worse again. Miserable, won't eat much, sleep all day. The interesting thing I've noticed is that every day he is feeling miserable and lethargic, refuses food, for the first part of the day, until about 7 PM, and after that he seams a different dog, has more energy, wants, play, walk, eats better -especially late in the evening) 

My question is *how long can he be on such a simple diet?*. Because most of the time, during the day especially, he will not eat anything, but the boiled chicken breast, sometimes not even that, so I can't add anything to it, or he will refuse it. It worries me that he has been on this type of diet for 4 weeks now. Usually late at night, he has a better appetite, so I can add sweet potatoes or rice and pumpkin, and the powdered eggshell supplement for calcium. But for the rest of the day he will not tough the chicken if it has anything else on it (not even the eggshell alone with a little broth). Today I boiled some oatmeal and added a little to his chicken, thinking he got tired of the same thing, and also added eggshell; he did eat that, kinda' hesitant, but he did. 
We have 8 more days to go with the Amoxicillin, so what should I do? *Can I give him just chicken during that day when his appetite is bad and just add other things in the evening when his appetite is a little better?*

Please.....help!!!


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## Qyn

*Re: Safir-another question*

I can't advise you medically but I would think if this (*chicken during that day when his appetite is bad and just add other things in the evening when his appetite is a little better*) is working then use what is working to your advantage.

Take care.


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## LJsMom

*Re: Safir-another question*

Can you change the ABX? Maybe Safir can't tolerate Amoxicillin?


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Safir-another question*

This is just My Opinion. Limited ingredient diets are fine when you have to use them for as long as you need to use them. Not the most balanced diet, but the dog is gettting some nutrients verses being on a diet their body can't handle and flushing all the stuff out before the body can do anything with it. Cheyenne lived on beef and rice for over 6 months, where I tried introduce food or another ingredient her body couldn't handle it. She actually at the end starting getting fat on beef and rice and then I was able to start her on a kibble. If more ingredietns cause digestive problems then the dog isn't getting any benefit from it and just stressing the digestive system out even more. 

Do what you have to do right now. I would call the Vet and see if there is another Antibioitic that might work. If not do what you have to do to get through this.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Safir-another question*

You can add a multivitamin to his diet or some leafy green veggies like pureed kale (my fave because it's got tons of vitamins). 

I fed a diet like that to my Massie for 2 years. I think he'll be fine. 

Be careful not add too much eggshell powder--it's very concentrated. 

Do you have the Pitcairn book? Half of Rafi's diet is actually made up of a modified version of one of their recipes. They have some special diets in there for sick dogs too. Monica Segal's books are really good too. http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/writings.php

I am allergic to most abx so please tell Safir that I sympathize!


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## dobricans

*Re: Safir-another question*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> Do you have the Pitcairn book? Half of Rafi's diet is actually made up of a modified version of one of their recipes.


I do now







I just ordered it on Amazon along with 'Veterinarians Guide to Natural Remedies for Dogs : Safe and Effective Alternative Treatments and Healing Techniques from the Nations Top Holistic Veterinarians'- Martin Zucker 
When I first started cooking for Safir I used the book 'Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog' as a guide and other online sources.



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowYou can add a multivitamin to his diet or some leafy green veggies like pureed kale (my fave because it's got tons of vitamins).


I wish I could add kale. I tried that when he was healthy and he didn't like it. Now that his appetite is bad...forget about it. Anything that changes the flavor of the chicken just a little.....he won't touch it.



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowBe careful not add too much eggshell powder--it's very concentrated.


How much would you say is right? I tried a little less than 1/2 tsp eggshell/ one large chicken breast. I know 1 tsp egshell balances the Ca/P ratio for on pound of muscle meat. How much is too much to give every day? Is 1 1/2 tsp reasonable?


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