# Think I made a mistake



## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

:frown2:

I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.

I didn't want a very high, police dog type drive, so i went with a showline GSD. I wanted a dog that would be a protector, good with my kids, but also one that i could participate in IPO if i chose. But the more i read this site, and others, the more it seems like that wasn't the correct choice. That i should've went with a med. drive working line instead. Then, with the breeder, i searched high and low on the breeder to see if i could find any bad reviews, or anything negative. Found nothing but high praise. But then after more review, i find out the sire is on his 3rd breeding and just turned 2 years old. Isn't that a no-no? The dogs aren't shown b/c the breeder "doesn't have time". Both dam and sire come from a long line of titled generations, but neither dam or sire are titled....not horrible, but i'm depending on the pup to hopefully get nerve/confidence from his heritage rather than his mother/father. And doesn't have no titled parents make it harder to breed mine down the road? That was always an option i wanted to have if able to find the right dam.

And i say i think i made a mistake b/c i put my deposit down before finding all this. I know, rookie move. I guess i just cross my fingers and hope for the best. Just looking for some positive vibes if anyone has any


ETA: I don't know.....maybe it's just nerves.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Black said:


> :frown2:
> 
> I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.
> 
> ...


If you share the puppy's pedigree people here could perhaps give some better feedback. Titles aren't everything. But some folks here might know and be able to give you some insight on the ancestry...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.

Are the parents health tested?

I bought a puppy from an untitled mother. The breeder was reputable, though, and had tried to title her, but just didn't have the time to do it himself, and the pro handler let him down.


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.
> 
> Are the parents health tested?
> 
> I bought a puppy from an untitled mother. The breeder was reputable, though, and had tried to title her, but just didn't have the time to do it himself, and the pro handler let him down.


Parents are health tested. Sire has "a" hips, mother has FCI 0/0


Litter from Joker von Hirschberg and Kimba Starodjurdjevacka

This link is both. Both have been updated since. I have the hip certs and pedigrees from the breeder
Both DM clear


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.


And this is what i'm beating myself up about. I wanted to avoid this by all means. Got caught up in the jargon on the website :headbang:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Well, the fact the parents have had hips and elbows tested is good. Means the breeders weren't so focused on money that they decided to skip that step.

BUT titles in showline dogs do NOT necessarily mean good nerves and confidence. Which is one of the reasons I now have a working line dog with a really wonderful 'off' switch.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I gave a sick puppy back I had for 3 weeks, hard decision but 3 years later very glad I made it and found a healthy puppy from a reputable breeder.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I'll tell you from personal experience, if you don't know the parent's nerves you have no way of knowing the pups nerves. 

That means either they need titles, or you need to know their bloodlines and meet the dogs in person. 

My GSD's sire is a great dog from really good lines, he would have really been something if the breeder had put in the work IPO3 easy. Her dam is a sweet ASL with good structure and clear tests, with some good hunt drive in there but that's it. What I got is a pretty high drive dog, she's actually more annoying and pushy than my Malinois if that tells you anything, that's kind of a baby. Not scared of her shadow or anything mind you, but that protective drive just isn't there.

In retrospect, even at the time I knew better but she's so *close* to what I wanted I ignored my misgivings. 

My Mal's sire isn't titled but from very intense lines, he's been trained in protection work by the breeder who works for the Sheriff's office & I've seen him work. His dam is a balanced bitch with good peripheral drives (hunt, ball, food, prey, never saw her work but she was in my face with the his sire when we decided to turn around and put down a deposit, didn't bother my wife but I was standing very still and not looking either of them in the eye LOL). 

That's when I knew I made the right call turning around, his off-switch and on-switch are extreme opposites. Not always easy to live with, I'm still pulling the matador routine when I get home to avoid the jumping/biting, but my goodness is he easy to train. Very balanced dog though, sounds like about what you're looking for. 

Point of telling you all this, if you're looking for a good family dog that will actually protect. It's been my personal experience that it's easier to find a more intense dog you can train / work into being satisfied physically to be a good family dog. While conversely you'll need alot of luck finding a family dog that actually has all the necessary traits to work/protect. Even getting close you can still end up with the same level of physical needs and pushy behavior without all the traits you're looking for. 

Put another way, both of my dogs require roughly equal levels of exercise. Both love the neighborhood kids and play gently with them and I'd trust them around a toddler with supervision. 1 at nearly 2 years old will run away if I came towards her quickly out of the dark. The other bit me hard enough to leave a bruise when I did the same to him at 2 months old and I don't bruise easily.

If you're looking at untitled show lines, well......

Don't take the above as a blanket recommendation to go out and get an insane pup from a IPO3 dog & bitch either. Just agreeing with you that what you've surmised from the board is correct. Here among a couple other places, along with discussions with my IPO trainer is how I figured out exactly what I wanted and the verbiage to communicate it to breeders. I knew better in 1 case and got exactly what I wanted in the second. 

Trust the board, it won't steer you wrong.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but better to eat a couple hundred now if you can't get a refund. Than 12 years of a dog that isn't what you're looking for, I love my GSD don't get me wrong but it's a major headache to deal with both of them. Especially knowing the effort I put into 1 is mostly wasted, but she'd be intolerable to live with if I don't.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

IMO the anxiety you're experiencing is the reason why there's no substitute for actually meeting a pups parents for insight as to what a pups overall temperament may be as an adult....in some cases I've meant grand parents also....breeders who don't health check is a huge red flag also...your breeder has that covered...in the end you should have a mental image of what you expect from a adult GSD in day to day life...if you spend time with a pups parents you'll have a better idea of what you're getting.


In your shoes If I couldn't meet the parents OR didn't trust the breeder 100%....I'd cut my losses....loose the deposit and move on....it's not worth the risk of living with a possible mistake for 10-12 years of regret.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Who is the breeder maybe there is someone who is familiar with them. How long have they been breeding and have you met there dogs.

You really need to know what need in the dog. There is no doubt you can not a get stable showline that would be capable taking you on a journey of your choosing from a reputable honest breeder. There are stable dogs that are still not the right matches. What do you need. Some people can not handle what they want. I had a police trained working line dog that was capable of doing serious damage to an intruder - a great dog but a big responsibility just in knowing the kind of damage that can occur. Great dog and he fit right in at the time. There are working lines that would be a great fit for you also. I think I’m the only one in here that likes all the lines. You have to meet the dogs. A reputable breeder of any breed that is honest will match you to what you want. 

I have done some scent work with my dogs. I do obedience for fun and practice in all different places for fun. My American showline even though on a different level of damage -is protective. Even if I stumble or have a coughing fit he rushes to my side and I feel very safe with him by my side at night. I never had a dog so intune with me. A nose like the devil and he loves to hunt. The only thing I have seen him back away from is smoke. Last night I blew a candle out and he lifted his head up to look at me - I just said it was okay and he went back to sleep. He has a very sensitive nose and He is a very forward pushy at times hard headed or high spirited dog. Max has a high prey drive but a very high pack-family/playful drive and happily lives with a chihuahua and other small pets. My west german showline is protective of her property and home and she does have some protective instincts. She also a gifted nose and is sweet and patient but has a bit of demon inside her- that side max sees from time to time lol! Luna is incredibly biddeable. Both easily can learn new things and are incredibly active when out and super quiet in the house. Both great at going to different places out even though max does not like other dogs he is a dog I can still do thing with. Incredible with my kids and kids that come over. My mom tripped over max and fell the other day he just got up and moved. Both very patient and forgiving dogs. The biggest priority i asked from a breeder that is everyone meshes In the home people pets and I wanted to do scent work and tracking and I have no complaints.luna and max .


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I'll toss in the other side of the coin. We told our breeder that we wanted a great companion dog that we could do IPO with but we weren't interested in going for high titles. We just wanted to get out and do things with our dog and hang out with dog people. We met the parents of two litters and ended up with just the pup we wanted! Confident as can be! Not too pushy. Curious about people but not overly social like a "pointy nosed lab". No human challenges him so just his being around is protective. We put a BH on him and could have gone higher on the club level but he is a long haired dog. Both he and my hubby melt in the heat. He isn't flashy in his obedience but he hit the bite-work decoy like a tank! And smart as could be. WGSL with titled lineage that goes way back. His sire only had a BH because he was over sized. I figure that is why such a great dog was sold to an american breeder. You know how we are about big dogs . But his sire's temperament was wonderful which is why my breeder brought him home.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Black said:


> :frown2:
> 
> I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.
> 
> ...


Not to offend or bash all show line gsd's, I agree with the above idea about finding a W/L pup that isn't too driven.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

Shane'sDad said:


> IMO the anxiety you're experiencing is the reason why there's no substitute for actually meeting a pups parents for insight as to what a pups overall temperament may be as an adult....in some cases I've meant grand parents also....breeders who don't health check is a huge red flag also...your breeder has that covered...in the end you should have a mental image of what you expect from a adult GSD in day to day life...if you spend time with a pups parents you'll have a better idea of what you're getting.
> 
> 
> In your shoes If I couldn't meet the parents OR didn't trust the breeder 100%....I'd cut my losses....loose the deposit and move on....it's not worth the risk of living with a possible mistake for 10-12 years of regret.


I love the comment about the grandparents as I am a firm believer that puppies can follow as much in line with their grandparents maybe even more but thats just me.

You may just be questioning your decision. You have to SOCIALIZE your puppy and help him to become confident. IMO If everyone is giving rave reviews then I would be talking to other owners especially ones that were bred by your pups parents.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Tennessee said:


> Probably not what you wanted to hear, but better to eat a couple hundred now if you can't get a refund. Than 12 years of a dog that isn't what you're looking for, I love my GSD don't get me wrong but it's a major headache to deal with both of them. Especially knowing the effort I put into 1 is mostly wasted, but she'd be intolerable to live with if I don't.


Yes, agreed. Have you met both parent dogs? The pedigrees can give you some idea about what to expect but the mother dog has a great influence on her pups. The pups will learn from her behavior as well. Trust your gut feeling. Maybe consider the deposit being the price for this lesson?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Have you raised a dog with your kids?


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Have you raised a dog with your kids?


I haven't raised one around my kids, but my kids have been around dogs for most of their lives. I wanted to wait to get one until my kids were older.




> Yes, agreed. Have you met both parent dogs? The pedigrees can give you some idea about what to expect but the mother dog has a great influence on her pups. The pups will learn from her behavior as well. Trust your gut feeling. Maybe consider the deposit being the price for this lesson?


I haven't met the parents. They are in another state. One of the flags was that the mother is an import.....how much does the breeder really know the mother. And being the puppy is most influenced by the mother (as i've read on here, which lead me to the uneasy feeling), if the breeder doesn't really know the mother, how can the breeder assure me what the puppy will be like. I based it off the conversation i had with her....and don't get me wrong, this wasn't a first phone call deposit. This was after many phone calls, many assurances, etc. It wasn't until i started reading more into the different lines and people experiences on this message board that i started to feel that all is not what i thought it was


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just by being from Germany because it is the country of origin, doesn't guarantee a good dog.


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> Just by being from Germany because it is the country of origin, doesn't guarantee a good dog.


If that's what you think i implied, i didn't mean to. The point of my response was that i thought the male was imported and the female was the breeders. As she would've known how the female acts and her traits.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My thoughts for what they are worth. It is not uncommon to import breeding stock. But it is uncommon to import untitled and untested stock. And I found the breeders site. I would eat the deposit and walk. 
On the other hand you said you liked what you initially heard so don't get all wild haired about things said on public forums. Keep in mind that this forum is heavily biased toward working lines and the owners on here first are not your average owners and second tend to post when they are having crappy days.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Black said:


> But then after more review, i find out the sire is on his 3rd breeding and just turned 2 years old. Isn't that a no-no? The dogs aren't shown b/c the breeder "doesn't have time". Both dam and sire come from a long line of titled generations, but neither dam or sire are titled....not horrible, but i'm depending on the pup to hopefully get nerve/confidence from his heritage rather than his mother/father. And doesn't have no titled parents make it harder to breed mine down the road? That was always an option i wanted to have if able to find the right dam.


He turned two on June 1st, that's the earliest that x-rays could have been submitted to the OFA to get a rating on his hips. Did the breedings occur prior to that? A male can be bred to any number of females within a short period of time, so being on his 3rd breeding at his age is not the same as it would be for a female. You say the breeder now has hip certs, but if s/he was breeding this dog before that was done, they had no way of knowing if he would pass or not. What was his OFA rating?

Having a long line of titled generations in the background doesn't necessarily predict anything. You may get a nice puppy out of this litter, or you may not. The fact that the breeder isn't doing anything with these dogs other than producing puppies would be a major concern for me. Was there any thought put into whether this pair is a good match, complementing each others strengths and weaknesses, or was the goal just to make some money? What would be your goal if you decide you want to breed your dog down the road?


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

> Keep in mind that this forum is heavily biased toward working lines and the owners on here first are not your average owners and second tend to post when they are having crappy days.


You have no idea how much that made me laugh out loud


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Black said:


> ...
> 
> 
> I haven't met the parents. They are in another state. One of the flags was that the mother is an import.....how much does the breeder really know the mother....


Road trip? It's the only way to know for sure!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

After reading too many stories about people not getting the sort of puppy they expected, I decided I'd always meet the puppy and the parents (if possible) in person before buying.

I've broken that rule only once, but I REALLY trusted the breeder of that pup.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don’t know which breeder you have a deposit with, but I would suggest taking a step back, going out to some clubs (all breed kennel clubs, GSD clubs, IPO clubs) and actually seeing a lot of dogs in person. Find what you like in person, then ask what the dog is like in the home, out in public, etc. If the dog sounds like what you are looking for, ask where the dog came from. Internet research can be a great way to start, and phone conversations with breeders can be informative, but nothing compares to meeting the dogs in person. There are likely dogs from all lines that would be a good fit for you. You just need to find a breeder that is great at matching their dogs with their buyers. WL dogs can be great pets if their needs are met and are bred with an off switch. But so can dogs from other lines. You’ll see what the difference is very clearly if you go out to some clubs. Just find what you like, what looks like something you can handle and talk to their owners. Dog people generally love talking about their dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Black said:


> You have no idea how much that made me laugh out loud


Happy to be of service.:smile2:

I'm no expert, and I've dealt with more then my share of crappy dogs. I can tell you that having a dog you aren't happy with for a decade or more is not going to be fun. I tend to keep the really awful ones because all dogs deserve a home where they are loved, but I'm not sure I would feel good if I went and bought one on purpose. Sometimes the best dogs can come from the strangest places, but again I'm not sure one should go looking.
My best advice is to clear your head and really think on it, then go with your gut.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If I was you,I wouldn't buy a dog from someone I haven't met in person and from dogs I've had a chance to spend some time around, especially to raise with your kids for the first time Black. The minimum for me would be on the advice of someone I know well and trust.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Road trip? It's the only way to know for sure!


That is great advice and totally worth the time and effort. It is how I chose my dogs. I knew it when the breeder let his dogs out of their kennels, that these were the dogs I had been looking for.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

Black said:


> You have no idea how much that made me laugh out loud


Me too. Never would have entered my mind....:grin2:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> If I was you,I wouldn't buy a dog from someone I haven't met in person and from dogs I've had a chance to spend some time around, *especially to raise with your kids *for the first time Black. The minimum for me would be on the advice of someone I know well and trust.



Agreed! Don’t take chances, especially with kids involved. Titled dogs don’t necessarily mean much in that it will somehow guarantee you a perfect dog. The breeder has to understand what’s behind those titles and the pedigree. Pairing dogs based on titles alone can end up with less than desirable results.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> My thoughts for what they are worth. It is not uncommon to import breeding stock. But it is uncommon to import untitled and untested stock. And I found the breeders site. I would eat the deposit and walk.
> On the other hand you said you liked what you initially heard so don't get all wild haired about things said on public forums. Keep in mind that this forum is heavily biased toward working lines and the owners on here first are not your average owners and second tend to post when they are having crappy days.


You mean everybody doesn’t spend an hour a day training and playing with their dogs, let them sleep in the bed, go to a trainer once a week or more for years, know their lineage forwards & backwards, reads essay length forum posts detailing pros and cons of traits of famous dogs down to minute details that @Ihczth is so kind to share with us, has literally the entire back of their SUV filled with crates and dog training items, reads articles/posts about issues their dog doesn’t even have just to be educated on the matter lest it ever come up, have a very strong opinion concerning Michael Ellis Vs Ivan Balabanov & SL vs WL and is happy to debate these endlessly at the drop of a hat, and take more pictures of their dogs than a 1st time mom?

I find that very hard to believe ma’am!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> You mean everybody doesn’t spend an hour a day training and playing with their dogs, let them sleep in the bed, go to a trainer once a week or more for years, know their lineage forwards & backwards, reads essay length forum posts detailing pros and cons of traits of famous dogs down to minute details that @Ihczth is so kind to share with us, has literally the entire back of their SUV filled with crates and dog training items, reads articles/posts about issues their dog doesn’t even have just to be educated on the matter lest it ever come up, have a very strong opinion concerning Michael Ellis Vs Ivan Balabanov & SL vs WL and is happy to debate these endlessly at the drop of a hat, and take more pictures of their dogs than a 1st time mom?
> 
> I find that very hard to believe ma’am!


An hour? I've spent an hour with Shadow before I even get to go pee and pour a cup of coffee! The cup of coffee that then gets cold when I take it back outside to play fetch. 


My life sucks.

OP are you sure you WANT a German Shepherd?


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> An hour? I've spent an hour with Shadow before I even get to go pee and pour a cup of coffee! The cup of coffee that then gets cold when I take it back outside to play fetch.
> 
> 
> My life sucks.
> ...



I don't even know what's going on anymore. I usually pick up on sarcasm, but on this board, I'm not so sure anymore


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Black said:


> I don't even know what's going on anymore. I usually pick up on sarcasm, but on this board, I'm not so sure anymore


Sarcasm is a given. I have to laugh at myself because, well frankly I have no life and have now crossed the line to crazy dog lady. 

Now back to your puppy woes, have any of these posts helped you or are we really just making it worse?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Black said:


> I don't even know what's going on anymore. I usually pick up on sarcasm, but on this board, I'm not so sure anymore


I'm not being sarcastic. Something thats going to be difficult is reading descriptions of things, or having someone tell you something about temperament or drives. The exact same term can mean something very different from two different people. Seeing the dogs, being around people doing things with dogs, gives you a kind of baseline to go from and gives you a chance to determine who you should actually trust.


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not being sarcastic. Something thats going to be difficult is reading descriptions of things, or having someone tell you something about temperament or drives. The exact same term can mean something very different from two different people. Seeing the dogs, being around people doing things with dogs, gives you a kind of baseline to go from and gives you a chance to determine who you should actually trust.



I know you weren't. Believe me when i say I've taken all comments into consideration and will not make the same mistake twice. 

Just be prepared to see PM's or threads from me through the process of choosing a new one. And yes, I will make a trip to meet them. I'm open to finding one nationwide, so if i have to fly, i will do what's needed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Did you have to eat the deposit?


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

How about modern technology? Is it possible to Facetime or Skype or something with the breeder and thus observe the parents that way?
Then, if you feel uneasy...you can pull the plug...

I say this because I have clients I have never met, but we have 'met' via modern technology and I do get a feel for them that way..
can she just have a webcam and streaming video, and you can watch the parents interacting with her and with other dogs, etc...

(PS Funny comments about this forum! It took me a long time to figure out all the acronyms, and I still haven't figured out some of them! There should be a glossary...


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Sarcasm is a given. I have to laugh at myself because, well frankly I have no life and have now crossed the line to crazy dog lady.
> 
> Now back to your puppy woes, have any of these posts helped you or are we really just making it worse?


Only way it would've been worse is if i had paid $2k plus shipping for a dog, it not being what i thought, then coming here and reading these comments after the fact.

I think a medium to medium-high drive working line is more suitable. BUT before being definite, i will go out to my local trainer who is in a club ( or runs it, i'm not sure what it what) and expose myself(figuratively, of course:grin2 ) to some working lines.


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Did you have to eat the deposit?


Seems i will. She wasn't available to talk, so i sent a text saying that i had some hesitations and wanted to take a step back and re-access things, and i've gotten no reply


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What you really want is good nerves Black. A solid, stable temperament. Biddable, respectful of your kids. Drives will limit what you would do in other areas, and I'm generalizing here, its not the drives that will determine if they're a good family dog. You can train drives.


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> What you really want is good nerves Black. A solid, stable temperament. Biddable, respectful of your kids. Drives will limit what you would do in other areas, and I'm generalizing here, its not the drives that will determine if they're a good family dog. You can train drives.



Noted. Still learning the terminology.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

FYI, Don't confuse "drive" with high energy or hyper, they are not synonymous. People will often post that they're looking for a lower drive dog not understanding that if they get what they're asking for it may not be so fun to train. Too much drive and the dog may be difficult to live with. Getting out to see some dogs will help shine a light on a lot this and help in understand terminology, some of it can be very confusing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t know which breeder you have a deposit with, but I would suggest taking a step back, going out to some clubs (all breed kennel clubs, GSD clubs, IPO clubs) and actually seeing a lot of dogs in person. Find what you like in person, then ask what the dog is like in the home, out in public, etc. If the dog sounds like what you are looking for, ask where the dog came from. Internet research can be a great way to start, and phone conversations with breeders can be informative, but nothing compares to meeting the dogs in person. There are likely dogs from all lines that would be a good fit for you. You just need to find a breeder that is great at matching their dogs with their buyers. WL dogs can be great pets if their needs are met and are bred with an off switch. But so can dogs from other lines. You’ll see what the difference is very clearly if you go out to some clubs. Just find what you like, what looks like something you can handle and talk to their owners. Dog people generally love talking about their dogs.





Steve Strom said:


> If I was you,I wouldn't buy a dog from someone I haven't met in person and from dogs I've had a chance to spend some time around, especially to raise with your kids for the first time Black. The minimum for me would be on the advice of someone I know well and trust.


This right here ^^^


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

As others have said, you seem to really have the idea of the 'Perfect GSD for you' and one of the ways to achieve that is to meet the dame and sire.

If you have already put some deposit, I second the others: better to bite the dust and turn around if it's not as expected. 10-12 years of dog is a MAJOR commitment. 

Then again, IMHO, no one can buy/rescue a dog and expect the dog to be exactly as what is expected. No, not by a long shot. Especially in this case, you want the dog to be strictly as pet, yes a showline GSD might be better, but that dog would still be a GSD. Certain level of prey drive, aggressiveness and protectiveness is a given.

If I were you I'd either turn around or consider another breed.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Good to take a step back. Make sure you are very sure of what you want. Evaluate your life, what will fit in with your family and if you schutzhund is really something you are interested in. By the way, I have six month old showline gsd and at this point, no sign of weak nerves in fact, seems to be just the opposite. Easily trained thus far. As for schutzhund, breeder says no and I tend to agree. That being said, I wasnt planing on schutzhund nor do I have a need for protection. No doubt he will make his presence known when people come to the door. That's all I need.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Black said:


> I don't even know what's going on anymore. I usually pick up on sarcasm, but on this board, I'm not so sure anymore


Haha, my apologies OP didn’t mean to derail your thread into silliness. 

She’s being sarcastic, but I’ve seen plenty of posts on this forum where people will detail some pretty ridiculous per day training/exercise “requirements for their dog”. 

I stopped taking most of them seriously along time ago, teach them something that requires lots of brain power to figure out and by a Nero ball and make them do 60 yard wind sprints for 20 minutes straight. A dog that’s still nutty after that just ain’t that common. 

Oh and I heard Steve may know a couple things about dogs. You should probably listen carefully to what he has to say :wink2:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> Keep in mind that this forum is heavily biased toward working lines and the owners on here first are not your average owners and second tend to post when they are having crappy days.





Tennessee said:


> You mean everybody doesn’t spend an hour a day training and playing with their dogs, let them sleep in the bed, go to a trainer once a week or more for years, know their lineage forwards & backwards, reads essay length forum posts detailing pros and cons of traits of famous dogs down to minute details that @Ihczth is so kind to share with us, has literally the entire back of their SUV filled with crates and dog training items, reads articles/posts about issues their dog doesn’t even have just to be educated on the matter lest it ever come up, have a very strong opinion concerning Michael Ellis Vs Ivan Balabanov & SL vs WL and is happy to debate these endlessly at the drop of a hat, and take more pictures of their dogs than a 1st time mom?


Are you guys implying this isn't normal???:thinking::surprise:


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## Black (Aug 14, 2018)

Tennessee said:


> Haha, my apologies OP didn’t mean to derail your thread into silliness.
> 
> She’s being sarcastic, but I’ve seen plenty of posts on this forum where people will detail some pretty ridiculous per day training/exercise “requirements for their dog”.
> 
> ...


No worries....it's good to keep things upbeat. Things can get tense around here, so breaking it up every now and again is a good thing.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Are you guys implying this isn't normal???:thinking::surprise:


If it’s wrong, then I don’t wanna be right.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Black said:


> I haven't raised one around my kids, but my kids have been around dogs for most of their lives. I wanted to wait to get one until my kids were older.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are you sure you want a GSD?

meeting the parents , sire , dam, even the 4 representing the grand parent generation is nice but --- they may be nice dogs in and of themselves and be totally wrong to match up as breeding partners. 

pedigree must be known. I think you posted some links but I can't get thme to work.

Let's look at the pedigree.

Then you do a deeper search . 

first this point - a sire being used 3 times at age 2 being a ref flag ? No . 
I would be far more interested in the qaulity of the females that were brought
to him and who was accepted for breeding.

A breeder should care what a stud produces , just as much as an owner of a female
should care , what is produced . 
Some don't seem to manage their males with the same care . That goes to BIG
name males as well . 

the dam is an import , which means nothing . The dam has no titles ? She may
have been imported as a young pup , but old enough for the "a" stamp , (one year)
or the owner of her chooses to use "a" stamp and not OFA .

the deep pedigree research examines her litter mates, what and if they have
reproduced - and what combinations did best . 
Examine what the sire and dam of this female have produced . .
For risk evaluation that includes orthopedic results.
Of all of them ! 

re - show lines , there are , on this forum , some members that posted threads
on , from what I could see some dogs that were beautiful spirits in their connection
to their owner - ideal stable , social dogs -- but they were heart aches because they
were so physically wrong that they were unable to be normal in something as simple
as walking from point A to B .

that is a crying shame. 

comments about damage that a "trained police" dog in a home setting can do forgets that
an untrained , uncontrolled , nervy dog -- can do as much damage ,

pedigree possible?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Black said:


> Noted. Still learning the terminology.


I'm not real big on terminology Black. A friendly dog with good nerves would be about as detailed as I'd be thinking for what you want. A dog like that will help you gain experience and let you enjoy him with your family. In general you'll avoid those unpredictable issues you see some people have, because most everything will be pretty obvious and clear to you. When you go see dogs, these are the kinds of things you can see with your own eyes. Its doubtful you'll mistake confident and friendly for fearful and nervous.

You can make a case for some dogs being one way at home and another in public, so that's one of the things where getting to know people first helps. My experience has pretty consistently been the dog that was friendly and welcoming at home is like that everywhere, but I generally know the people and dogs ahead of time so I know what I'm going to see.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Are you set on a GSD? English Shepherds are kinda between a GSD and a Collie. They don't have as many problems as in both breeds.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm not sure why you have decided that this is not a good pup for you and your family. It seems to me that you are making assumptions from some internet videos. What exactly makes you think this is the wrong pup?

I have a WGSL dog that is anything buy nervy and is very protective. I'm confident that he is capable of doing anything I want to teach him and he is very, very smart and eager to learn.

Without seeing the parents of this litter, there is no way to determine what this puppy could be. He may be perfect for you. 

My advice is to take the trip and meet these dogs and the breeder. This might not be a mistake at all.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

All joking and sarcasm aside I agree to a point with Steve and Carmen. 
Before you give up on the deposit I would want more info, much more info. You need to be looking for health, longevity and stable temperament. And on the nerves I am going to respectfully disagree with Steve. My current dog is sweet, friendly and open at home. She shows proper vigilance and great discernment. Guests invited in are welcome to play and pet and she is gentle and tolerant of children. 
Take her off the property and you would think someone switched dogs. Hyper alert, aggressive and reactive.

Longevity will tell you something about the overall health of the lines as well as what the breeder actually knows. 
Things like hemangio seem to follow lines to a point. So does bloat. So if you have lots of dogs in the background that are dying young you need to dig deeper. Especially with kids involved the last thing you need is a dog that sickens and dies really young.

Hip/elbow scores, DM testing are pretty common and should be looked at as a bare minimum. And a breeder who knows nothing about the dogs behind theirs should raise immediate flags.

But don't just walk away, and give up the money, without getting answers.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think it boils down to trusting the breeder. With my recent import, I knew exactly what I wanted and the lines I like, and trusted the breeder completely to match me with the right pup. I am so incredibly happy with her- all the fun of a drivey dog and none of the issues- social as can be (but not doofy like a lab about it) and great with kids and other dogs. Super eager to work with me and to learn, and always ready to go. That amazing balance is hard to find- but if you want a dog who can work and also be a "normal" dog out and about, find a good breeder that you connect with and who has produced what you want, and get a pup from him or her.

Just wanted to add though that the energy and exercise requirements of my pup would far exceed those of an "average" dog owner.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Black! Have you own a GSD before? Another good avenue to find what you're looking for and get support along the way is looking into a good local GSD rescue. 

I can tell you first hand that some of the dogs that end up in rescues are some of the nicer ones I've seen. A dog that's grown is a good fit for what you're looking for - the temperament is more obvious, it may have proven track record with kids, the nerves are easily seen, and less overwhelming without the puppy bursts of energy and tantrums, etc. There is normally a trial period when you adopt from rescue. 

If you're new to the breed, you can foster and see how the breed fits into your lifestyle and see/experience the different kinds of temperament/drive first hand before making a 10 years+ decisions. It will also give you a good read on whether a dog/breed will work well with your kids and vice versa.

Strong nerves is paramount. Most GSDs can work for people who want to dabble in some light dog sports. But without good nerves, everything is just 2X or more harder. And with nerves, you can find that in rescues if you give it some time.


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## goldtwh (Aug 3, 2018)

Black said:


> :frown2:
> 
> I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.
> 
> ...


If you are concerned, wouldn't it be best to let the deposit go and cut your losses. The initial cost(s) of an animal are nothing as compared to the long term costs. Back up, start over, and go with a breeder you have confidence in. JMHO.


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## goldtwh (Aug 3, 2018)

Bear L said:


> Hi Black! Have you own a GSD before? Another good avenue to find what you're looking for and get support along the way is looking into a good local GSD rescue.
> 
> I can tell you first hand that some of the dogs that end up in rescues are some of the nicer ones I've seen. A dog that's grown is a good fit for what you're looking for - the temperament is more obvious, it may have proven track record with kids, the nerves are easily seen, and less overwhelming without the puppy bursts of energy and tantrums, etc. There is normally a trial period when you adopt from rescue.
> 
> ...


 
I am all for rescue pups, and even volunteer on a regular basis. However, some rescues will not allow you to use your rescued dog for any "work". That is, you will not be allowed to show the dog, AKC or IPO, train the dog for Service, or any other sort of "work." They only allow you to keep the rescued pet as a "pet". Rescue pups are also neutered/spayed. They are not allowed to ever be bred. You will not be the one determining the future for your pup. That is exactly why, I am purchasing my next puppy, and will take in a rescue when my old girl passes. I plan to do IPO with my new guy and the rescue I am involved with would not even consider letting me have a rescue dog for that job. Good Luck. Jill


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

goldtwh said:


> I am all for rescue pups, and even volunteer on a regular basis. However, some rescues will not allow you to use your rescued dog for any "work". That is, you will not be allowed to show the dog, AKC or IPO, train the dog for Service, or any other sort of "work." They only allow you to keep the rescued pet as a "pet". Rescue pups are also neutered/spayed. They are not allowed to ever be bred. You will not be the one determining the future for your pup. That is exactly why, I am purchasing my next puppy, and will take in a rescue when my old girl passes. I plan to do IPO with my new guy and the rescue I am involved with would not even consider letting me have a rescue dog for that job. Good Luck. Jill


Is it in their contract? How can anyone tell you what you can’t do with your own dog? I did rescue for years and finally got another dog from a breeder the last time. I got tired of being pushed toward difficult dogs because I had GSD experience. The rescue I still have is not difficult, but that is because I picked my own dog. They were trying to get me to adopt a challenging dog that had survived parvo. They did not ask what I planned to do with the dog.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

goldtwh said:


> I am all for rescue pups, and even volunteer on a regular basis. However, some rescues will not allow you to use your rescued dog for any "work". That is, you will not be allowed to show the dog, AKC or IPO, train the dog for Service, or any other sort of "work." They only allow you to keep the rescued pet as a "pet". Rescue pups are also neutered/spayed. They are not allowed to ever be bred. You will not be the one determining the future for your pup. That is exactly why, I am purchasing my next puppy, and will take in a rescue when my old girl passes. I plan to do IPO with my new guy and the rescue I am involved with would not even consider letting me have a rescue dog for that job. Good Luck. Jill


I’m familiar and have past involvement with several of the rescues in your area. I believe some clarification may be in order. Do you mind sharing via PM which rescue you volunteer for?

I understand that they make no claims or guarantees as far as temperament or suitability.... and indeed the dog is adopted as a “pet”, however, barring very specific situations (for example, law enforcement), I have never been aware of any limitations in sport or specialty training.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

goldtwh said:


> I am all for rescue pups, and even volunteer on a regular basis. However, some rescues will not allow you to use your rescued dog for any "work". That is, you will not be allowed to show the dog, AKC or IPO, train the dog for Service, or any other sort of "work." They only allow you to keep the rescued pet as a "pet". Rescue pups are also neutered/spayed. They are not allowed to ever be bred. You will not be the one determining the future for your pup. That is exactly why, I am purchasing my next puppy, and will take in a rescue when my old girl passes. I plan to do IPO with my new guy and the rescue I am involved with would not even consider letting me have a rescue dog for that job. Good Luck. Jill



Lordie, it is this foolishness that lead us to our breeder. We have two very nice dogs now that we raised since pups, with no restrictions other than our own, to give them a good life. 

I did have a wonderful GSD from the shelters, many years ago. It can happen.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The shelters here are not the probleem but the rescues, with all their requirements, 4 page contracts etc, are. The reason I found my breeder while a nice rescue dog missed out on a home.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There are rescues in my area, actually breeders, too! I saw a labrador breeder, highly recommended, part of purchase contract will not sell to anyone wanting the dog to be a service dog.

And I have seen rescues who will not adopt in any working capacity. I have not seen anything saying you can't conpete in a sport. Though i could see some fruitcakes opposing IPO in particular if they were super pure positive.

ALWAYS spayed/neutered prior to adoption. The GSD rescue I was involved with in the south was willing to let me trial dogs (like temporary try the dog) to find my next SD. Unfortunately I couldn't take them up on it bc I had too many extra dogs at thst time and my girl was still working.

I wonder if they won't place for work because they want lifetime commitment and if the dog washes it's out of a home maybe?

Some craziness out there though.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I remember my contract stated things like: “adequate food, water available at all times, inside dog, KEPT AS PET, trained positively”.

My thought was that “kept as pet” meant that they don’t want you to get it to be a guard dog and tether it outside? But would that apply to IPO as well? 

I sent a few updates and questions in the first few months, but have not been in touch with the rescue since last summer! So how would they even know what I was doing with Rumo...I think they all stay quite busy, and don’t have time to enforce a lot of the restrictions ( unless the adopted dog turns up at a shelter again... now that made our foster mom very angry! )


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once you have a rescue dog, because you now belong to the elite who has been approved, it is just 'don't ask, don't tell'. No person is moving in with you and the dog to make sure you don't 'work the dog. How crazy is that for a working dog 'rescue' actually? The word 'rescue' is also being mis-used unless e.g. the dog was pulled out of a drain, starving. Or a rescuer stopped freeway traffic to rescue a stray dog running wild. Things have gotten out of control, not to speak of the neuter and spay requirement of young pups.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Once you have a rescue dog, because you now belong to the elite who has been approved, it is just 'don't ask, don't tell'. No person is moving in with you and the dog to make sure you don't 'work the dog. How crazy is that for a working dog 'rescue' actually? The word 'rescue' is also being mis-used unless e.g. the dog was pulled out of a drain, starving. Or a rescuer stopped freeway traffic to rescue a stray dog running wild. Things have gotten out of control, not to speak of the neuter and spay requirement of young pups.


I personally wouldn't support the spay/neuter myself it does make me sick to my stomach. But I fully understand why they do it. If they didn't a huge number of those puppies would end up reproducing especially in today's climate of designer dogs and anything with 4 legs is worth $300+ And in some areas they can't legally adopt out dogs until they're spayed/neutered so they'd have to wait to find any of the animals homes until they were old enough to be altered.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Our shelter here imports dogs from Texas, mostly. The average stay for a dog in the shelter is 2 days. There isn't a dog overpopulation problem, locally, but boy do people love to talk about their "rescue dog"-- should it be "rescued dog?" The dog isn't the one doing the rescuing, at least in most cases. 

It's funny because when I go hiking, most of the dogs I see are doodles of some kind, and "rescues". The doodle owners aren't chatty about where they got their dog but the "rescue" people sure love to tell you a backstory. They'll admire my pup and tell me I got lucky, and I'll start explaining how I'd known the breeder for years and researched the bloodlines and knew exactly what I wanted, but they start to look confused after a while and I have stopped even telling them the actual breed.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

For those in CA, the rescue and shelter is required by law to spay/neuter. 

I'm not aware of any rescue/shelter that say the dog cannot participate in dog sports or become a service dog. It may be a misunderstanding. What I know is, the rescue may be concerned if a person is looking to adopt a dog for service dog because the rescue cannot guarantee the dog to be a successful candidate - no different than getting a dog from shelter or breeder for this same purpose - no promise can be given. Often when asked about what will happen if the dog doesn't make the cut after training - the common responses are - will return the dog to the rescue or they don't have a good answer. So it's not the rescues won't adopt out for service dog, but rather that it cannot be guaranteed and if there's no backup plan then it's not a workable situation because rescues are not there to let people try out dogs for months, often adopted as puppies, and to be returned later as adults. Often these people aren't well versed to test/evaluate the dogs themselves thus are instead advised to work with a reputable SD trainer/organization to find that dog. Often also may of them are suspect for wanting a "service dog" to get around the no-dog housing rules for renters or not fully understanding what a true service dog is meant for and the training required. 

In the rescues I've worked with, it's a plus if the adopter will train the dog in dog sports. I cannot imagine why it would not be. Maybe the adopter says I want this dog for ABC dog sport but rescue says "we cannot guarantee this dog for ABC sport but can adopt out as pet" as to make sure it's clear there are no promise that can be given that the dog can do ABC sport. Hope this makes sense.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Our shelter here imports dogs from Texas, mostly. The average stay for a dog in the shelter is 2 days. There isn't a dog overpopulation problem, locally, but boy do people love to talk about their "rescue dog"-- should it be "rescued dog?" The dog isn't the one doing the rescuing, at least in most cases.


Where I am, dog overpopulation is a serious problem. Lots of other states get dogs from CA because too many good dogs are being abandoned more than there are adopters. Couple times a year, the shelter have $0 adoption days (which attracts many bad adopters unfortunately) to help clear up the shelter and even then not all get adopted and many dogs get returned later to the same or other shelters. Many strays, many are just dumped. Plenty of good dogs, including puppies, sitting in shelters resulting in some getting put down due to lack of space. For example, I've seen beautiful purebred looking huskies, 1 year old, friendly with dogs and people, run out of time in shelter because there are just too many. It's a very dire and sad situation. Some dogs don't get to sit in shelter for more than 2 weeks, some sits there for many months and still no adopters.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

The dog I last worked on to adopt out of rescue - I recommended this dog for dog sports, and due to its solid nerve and wit, potential as a trainer's demo dog. If a dog has excellent ball drive and is confident, the rescues work with the police departments to get the dog tested for police work, with other orgs for SAR, etc. I've a rescue dog that a service dog organization tested and wanted. The rescues I've volunteered with have been excellent in networking with various organizations and other rescues and shelters, crossing state lines, to do what's in the best interest of the dogs and get them a chance to live out the rest of their lives well. 

Rescues where I am is messy work and full of heart breaks. There is no way to ever catch up with the speed of people abandoning their dogs (not even close but far far behind), of the countless dogs being put down for simply running out of time at the shelter, and of the many dogs messed up for being passed around and misunderstood. Most rescues here pull from shelters of dogs that have ran out of time or dogs that need vet care (ie. surgery in the thousands) before it can be adopted or have some behavioral issues that need some further assessment. Many GSDs do not do well in the shelter environment (it's loud, constant barking, concrete floors, dim lights in some places, isolation, etc) and acts out which only works against their adoptability in the shelter. When rescues pull them, the dogs get to decompress, live in a better environment and made adoptable. Despite the many challenges, the rescues press on because one dog saved, is one dog saved.


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