# That idiot...



## Blitzkrieg1

From Victoria Stillwell

Two days ago during a police dog training seminar I received a very bad, sustained bite from a training exercise gone wrong. Combination of wrong place at the wrong time and major handler error. I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed. This should never have happened and now I have six very deep puncture wounds with two drains in my legs - can't walk and the pain is excruciating. It's my little girls birthday today and all our activity plans have to be cancelled. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yes I bloody am and for my daughter. I'm annoyed that this happened when it so easily could have been prevented.

*The wrong place was at a police training seminar or close to any kind of working dog. The wrong time was anytime. 
This type of trainer that sells people smoke, mirrors and lies then has the temerity to put down and spread negative propoganda about trainers a thousand times better then her, drive me nuts.* There's a lesson here somewhere..if you want to learn it.


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## Chip18

Sorry to hear you got hurt! 

Not really sure what a VS type trainer would be doing in your world?? I'm not much impressed with her work in "Pet Land." In disagreement over Cat v Dog's, I went to the her site to see what she recommended??

Her advise ... find a trainer!


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## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> From Victoria Stillwell
> 
> Two days ago during a police dog training seminar I received a very bad, sustained bite from a training exercise gone wrong. Combination of wrong place at the wrong time and major handler error. I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed. This should never have happened and now I have six very deep puncture wounds with two drains in my legs - can't walk and the pain is excruciating. It's my little girls birthday today and all our activity plans have to be cancelled. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yes I bloody am and for my daughter. I'm annoyed that this happened when it so easily could have been prevented.


Yup...could have been prevented by not being somewhere she had no business being without the skills and mindset to understand...that ain't Pookie out there.


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## dogma13

I'm confused about who got hurt and how V.S. is involved.


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## Jax08

Victoria Stillwell got bit. She has some new show where she is playing with K9's. I saw a brief commercial somewhere a while ago.


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## Jax08

Seriously already...

https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaSt...43027413824/10154048842513825/?type=3&theater


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## wolfy dog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> From Victoria Stillwell
> 
> Two days ago during a police dog training seminar I received a very bad, sustained bite from a training exercise gone wrong. Combination of wrong place at the wrong time and major handler error. I've been in a fog of pain and pain pills since then but today am clear enough to be majorly pissed. This should never have happened and now I have six very deep puncture wounds with two drains in my legs - can't walk and the pain is excruciating. It's my little girls birthday today and all our activity plans have to be cancelled. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yes I bloody am and for my daughter. I'm annoyed that this happened when it so easily could have been prevented.
> 
> *The wrong place was at a police training seminar or close to any kind of working dog. The wrong time was anytime.
> This type of trainer that sells people smoke, mirrors and lies then has the temerity to put down and spread negative propoganda about trainers a thousand times better then her, drive me nuts.* There's a lesson here somewhere..if you want to learn it.


So who is the one that got hurt. Was it VS? Or you Blitz? Don't quite understand the story (sorry, it is still early morning out here). If it were VS, why was she there and what happened exactly?


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## Shade

Mistakes happen to the best of us, but to sit there and wallow and publically whine - what little (very little) respect I have for her is completely demolished


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## Chip18

LOL Victoria got bit??? Maybe she was working the dog with the wrong brand of treats?? She should have pm'd me I would have "said" this:


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## wolfy dog

Jax08 said:


> Victoria Stillwell got bit. She has some new show where she is playing with K9's. I saw a brief commercial somewhere a while ago.


OMG, why does she go into something that is over her head? I also do "just" pet dog training but am careful what I take on. I prefer working with the Pookies and refer others, like his morning I will see a 9 week old Parson Jack Russell pup that is biting his owner. Sometimes it is so good to be paid for "playing" with puppies.
Maybe I should have referred the Boerboel to VS 
Just saw the trailer. Nice documentary but they should have left VS out of it.


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## Jax08

wolfy dog said:


> I prefer working with the Pookies and refer others, like his morning I will see a 9 week old Parson Jack Russell pup that is biting his owner. Sometimes it is so good to be paid for "playing" with puppies.


Bread and Butter


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## dogma13

Jax08 said:


> Victoria Stillwell got bit. She has some new show where she is playing with K9's. I saw a brief commercial somewhere a while ago.


Ok,thank you!


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## Muskeg

What shouldn't have happened was VS getting anywhere near an actual working dog. If you can't handle a dog- say so! As Stever Irwin said, "Don't muck with it!"

I hope whatever department she was working with made sure to cross their T's and dot their i's in the contract because all this complaining seems like it might lead to a lawsuit. Ugh.


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## Jax08

Muskeg said:


> What shouldn't have happened was VS getting anywhere near an actual working dog. If you can't handle a dog- say so! As Stever Irwin said, "Don't muck with it!"
> 
> I hope whatever department she was working with made sure to cross their T's and dot their i's in the contract because all this complaining seems like it might lead to a lawsuit. Ugh.


They let her put on a bite suit!!! :rofl: NO way would I let this woman catch my dog. Never. At least the dog didn't have a full grip!


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## llombardo

Why would they allow this? I'm not familiar with a bite suit(a complete suit?). How did the dog manage to bite and do damage through that?


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## Slamdunc

Is there any way to find this episode? I'd like to see what happened. 

Well, I always say when it comes to training LE K-9's at some point: "if someone isn't bleeding then you probably aren't really training." 

I know handlers get nervous when I say, "you'll be fine." Translation: protect yourself, don't screw up and you shouldn't get bit.


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## gsdsar

She has removed the post from her FB page. 

I would love to know what actually happened. I don't think it was while she the suit on. I am assuming that the handler lost control of the dog and she was in the way. Or a dog redirected. 

Does anyone know what actually happened. Cause while I don't like her much, sounds like a pretty horrific bite. Not sure we can, or should blame this on her "purely positive" training.


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## Jax08

I didn't say it was while she had a suit on. I said she was in a bite suit in response to the one post I quoted. Go look at her facebook page and you'll see the picture.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This. 

It looks like she was an invited guest, to learn about and highlight the working police K9s. A positive thing for Police (no pun intended  ) There is a pic of her taking a bite while wearing a bite suit. Though I understand the bite occurred later.

If she was around the dogs and officers as an invited guest then I don't think she should take all the blame.

Looking at the comments on her FB page other police depts. are extending invitations for her to attend their training sessions too.

So ..... IMO if a PD invites someone as a guest that they know is not a police K9 trainer (ahhh yeah, VS) then it's on them to take some extra precautionary steps too.

:shrug:







gsdsar said:


> She has removed the post from her FB page.
> 
> I would love to know what actually happened. I don't think it was while she the suit on. I am assuming that the handler lost control of the dog and she was in the way. Or a dog redirected.
> 
> Does anyone know what actually happened. *Cause while I don't like her much, sounds like a pretty horrific bite. Not sure we can, or should blame this on her *"purely positive" training.


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## Steve Strom

It wasn't a dog from the show. A Mal from another Dept. Somebody just wasn't paying attention.

Dogs in the News

https://twitter.com/victorias


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## Slamdunc

I would be very interested in knowing the details. 

When ever we have a civilian out to our training, like a photographer for example or a citizen, we always have a handler standing nearby to take a bite if need be. Recently, we did bite work in a room full of bottles and a very nice young lady was videotaping from on top of a cabinet. The cabinet was only about 7' high and I figured that it was possible for a Mali to jump up on the cabinet and grab her. I climbed on the cabinet and stood next to her to insure if things went south, I would be the one getting bit not her. She appreciated that. 

Plan A and Plan B. Things do not always go according to Plan A, especially when you are working with animals. That is why you need to have a Plan B.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That makes sense Jim.

I saw an episode with Victoria where she went to some protection training, she didn't pretend to be a serious K9 handler. She was trying to illustrate to some people who had a cane corso how serious that training is.

I don't agree with her training methodology but that sounds like a really serious bite and a wee bit of compassion can't hurt. She was, after all, wanting to learn and share with the public what officers and their dogs go through.


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## Slamdunc

Yup, it sounds like she got tagged pretty well. I'm sure she is in some serious discomfort. It is very unfortunate. 

I really don't know very much about her training or methods. Years ago I saw a couple of episodes of her show, but that was it. 

I am all about her wanting to learn and share with the public what Police Officers go through, as long as it is fair and unbiased. I was hoping to see the show but can not find any listings for it. I suppose it is not ready to be aired yet.


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## Gwenhwyfair

To be clear I was *not* referring to you regarding having compassion. I meant that in general.

Looking at the links to her FB page and twitter it sounds like they are still in process of filming. She was in Alabama on 3/21 (where the bite happened) filming for the show.

I didn't see air dates yet either. I will watch it though, should be interesting!



Slamdunc said:


> Yup, it sounds like she got tagged pretty well. I'm sure she is in some serious discomfort. It is very unfortunate.
> 
> I really don't know very much about her training or methods. Years ago I saw a couple of episodes of her show, but that was it.
> 
> I am all about her wanting to learn and share with the public what Police Officers go through, as long as it is fair and unbiased. I was hoping to see the show but can not find any listings for it. I suppose it is not ready to be aired yet.


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## wolfy dog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I will watch it though, should be interesting!


That's exactly the purpose of shows like hers; drama and fear. It draws viewers and paid advertising for the networks. And we fall for it. Things that go smooth won't get the viewers they rely on.


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## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> Is there any way to find this episode? I'd like to see what happened.
> 
> Well, I always say when it comes to training LE K-9's at some point: "if someone isn't bleeding then you probably aren't really training."
> 
> I know handlers get nervous when I say, "you'll be fine." Translation: protect yourself, don't screw up and you shouldn't get bit.


I think sometimes people holding the leash get a little too relaxed, they can be a little too casual about it in that environment. Look at this, 35 seconds or so. A different dog and Blitz has drains in his legs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIYKOyk0a28


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## Blitzkrieg1

True Steve but I know this type of dog, if he was that type of dog he would be back tied to a post and I would be dressed appropriately. If your training with these type of dogs your going to get bit someway somehow at some point. 

For me it's the methods she peddles, the character assassination of better training and methods and the dogs killed directly or indirectly because she operates from a place that makes no sense scientifically or practically. Got no sympathy..hopefully she stays far away from working dogs moving forward. 

Slam maybe when she feels better you can have her down to your dept to help with your dog .


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## Slamdunc

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> True Steve but I know this type of dog, if he was that type of dog he would be back tied to a post and I would be dressed appropriately. If your training with these type of dogs your going to get bit someway somehow at some point.
> 
> For me it's the methods she peddles, the character assassination of better training and methods and the dogs killed directly or indirectly because she operates from a place that makes no sense scientifically or practically. Got no sympathy..hopefully she stays far away from working dogs moving forward.
> 
> Slam maybe when she feels better you can have her down to your dept to help with your dog .


Oh my goodness, thanks for the laugh. 

Yea, I saw the scars on the arm of my buddy that took Boru out of his kennel in February and got nailed. The handler is a super good guy and was very thankful he was wearing a heavy winter coat, BDU shirt and LS thermal shirt. No, she will not be working with the new dog just yet.


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## Steve Strom

I know you don't like her, I just wouldn't be too quick to blame her for getting bit. You know that dog doesn't bite for . She didn't have a way to know that mal would do that. I agree with Jim, the people in charge need to take more precautions, but who know's, maybe they did. She described it as a handler error.


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## Gwenhwyfair

eh. In the past her shows were pretty tame. Like potty training the naughty little shih Tzu. A few aggression issues but Cesar's shows were more dramatic in that sense.

I'll give it a watch and see for myself. 




wolfy dog said:


> That's exactly the purpose of shows like hers; drama and fear. It draws viewers and paid advertising for the networks. And we fall for it. Things that go smooth won't get the viewers they rely on.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Steve. :laugh:

Dang Blitz! 

Forget the dog, I would have been hit by the decoy for letting the dog pull me forward that much. 




Steve Strom said:


> I think sometimes people holding the leash get a little too relaxed, they can be a little too casual about it in that environment. Look at this, 35 seconds or so. A different dog and Blitz has drains in his legs.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIYKOyk0a28


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## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> I know you don't like her, I just wouldn't be too quick to blame her for getting bit. You know that dog doesn't bite for . She didn't have a way to know that mal would do that. I agree with Jim, the people in charge need to take more precautions, but who know's, maybe they did. She described it as a handler error.



She did blame him Steve, what a class act she is. I'm hearing second hand of course from people that were there that she intentionally placed herself in a dangerous position to get a better camera angle. Right in the danger zone of a dog that was loading for bitework.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Steve. :laugh:
> 
> Dang Blitz!
> 
> Forget the dog, I would have been hit by the decoy for letting the dog pull me forward that much.


The dog lacks confidence. I told him towards the end to let the dog pull him forward and back me up. But yes he does have some post issues which have been addressed .


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## Gwenhwyfair

Cool. My dog must be doing well then!  Be the post, I am the post. 




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The dog lacks confidence. I told him towards the end to let the dog pull him forward and back me up. But yes he does have some post issues which have been addressed .


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## Steve Strom

He's pulling him forward alright, Lol. I would have gotten bit and blamed you and him both.


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## Jax08

Interesting read
https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


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## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> Interesting read
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Good stuff....this excerpt " _She is extremely irresponsible person. When I was on her show we were demonstrating an attack trained pitbull off-leash. She wanted us to take off the ecollar for filming so she could claim to only train with “positive” trainers that magically teach dogs responsibility and discipline without…discipline as part of the plan..._." just fans the flames of my cynicism...I guess I was a sucker when it came to some of these more "famous" dog trainers and that they truly believe in their methodology. Oh well, same old same old...$$$$ reign supreme.

SuperG


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## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> Interesting read
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


Thanks for this a very good read. I never watched this lady and now I know I don't have to waste my time. She is putting many people and dogs at risk all for the sake of money. I wonder how bad her bite really was she may be milking it for her own cause-ratings. It is probably why she deleted her post about her injury -whoah is me -in fear of looking to cheap and transparent.


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## Gwenhwyfair

6 deep puncture wounds with surgical drains unless she is lying. That's no fun. I had surgical drains and it's to allow fluids to drain from a traumatized area. Usually needed after more severe form of trauma or deep tissue surgery. 

Eh.

My take, over all is: The police depts. invited her. They want to be on her show "The Guardians of the Night". Go to her FB page and you'll see several PD asking her to come train with them.

They want the PR. She wants to showcase her training methods. 

It's one of those it takes two to tango things. Most people into dog training know who she is, they know what her beliefs are. Yet she was still invited. She put her trust in the handlers and the trainers too. It's entirely possible a handler screwed up. 

Accidents happen. Last summer a mali at one of our local depts. nailed an officer badly in the knee. Put the officer in the hospital too.

Last weekend at a PSA trial down the street a mali nailed it's owner, ripped his hand open so badly he had to go to the hospital.

I know when I've been seriously injured I get an adrenalin rush and it lasts for a day or two. After time has passed perspective settles in.

She's human. Overall what she is trying to do must be good for the PDs and their K9s else they wouldn't be sending her invitations to embed with and film them? Right?

.


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## Dainerra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> She's human. Overall what she is trying to do must be good for the PDs and their K9s else they wouldn't be sending her invitations to embed with and film them? Right?
> 
> .


I couldn't say. A lot of time those decisions are made by people who have little to do with actual police work, let alone the k9 units. They are made by media liaisons, city councils and others who think that publicity will be good for them.


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## Jenny720

Drains are not fun they are not a pleasant sight either. If you are a trainer or working with any Strong beast it is all part of the risk. When it happens a trainer usually does not broadcast and cry the blues. Many times trainers blame themselves as they should accidents happen. Its was not professional. i suppose she realized this or took some advise and took the post down? She can very well easily gotten hurt its the fact she felt the need to broadcast leads to many questions.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Check out her FB page, depts. asking her to come and film them. 

A lot PDs praising what she is doing too.

I think they like having their work highlighted. It would make sense given the climate surrounding police work at this time. 

The price they are paying is having to deal with her cockamamie pink fuzzy slipper time out style of training. 




Dainerra said:


> I couldn't say. A lot of time those decisions are made by people who have little to do with actual police work, let alone the k9 units. They are made by media liaisons, city councils and others who think that publicity will be good for them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Nah. She's human. She was in pain. Frustrated. Vented on social media. Lot's of people do it.

It's just because she mentioned 'handler' error and it happens the handler was a police officer.

If it would have happened at a PSA trial and she mentioned 'wrong place, wrong time, handler error'. It would not have even rated a blip.

Who knows, maybe the handler did slip up. So what? She's going to be o.k. She's going to continue the series (so she's not holding grudges) and it will be all forgotten in a few months. She'll have some cool scars to tell stories about. 




Jenny720 said:


> Drains are not fun they are not a pleasant sight either. If you are a trainer or working with any Strong beast it is all part of the risk. When it happens a trainer usually does not broadcast and cry the blues. Many times trainers blame themselves as they should accidents happen. Its was not professional. i suppose she realized this or took some advise and took the post down? She can very well easily gotten hurt its the fact she felt need to broadcast leads to many questions.


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## Muskeg

I think the bigger picture issue is the problem, and that link is a great read, I'll repost. https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/

The bigger picture problem is that someone like Victoria S. or Zak G. go out there and for some reason have the charisma to get on TV and have people listen to them and dogs end up:
1. hurting people and other dogs
2. getting killed- or at the very least-
3. having a much reduced quality of life for both human and dogs

All this because idiots like VS (who didn't even own much less train a dog prior to her TV show) tell people that their particular "take" on reward-only training is the way to go. And if that doesn't work, well, kill the dog! 

But it's not even the reward-only based part I have an issue with, because most people could get a long way training their pet dog if they do it right, and if they do it knowing the basics of classical and operant conditioning, and how dogs learn. But VS and Zak G, they don't even have a clue when it comes to effective reward-only training. 

I could go on and on, but my point is the dog training industry is incredibly unregulated, and a charismatic person with a nice face and body can come out and spout all kinds of nonsense and ruin people's and dog's lives. 

People who are only going to a trainer because they care about their dog, have a problem they don't know how to address, and are seeking experienced help. It drives me crazy that those people can't find it or are getting duped! 

It is so very difficult for a normal, smart, well-intentioned dog owner to find good training advice these days. Almost any other professional needs some kind of certification. Not so with dog trainers, and it's high time that changed.


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## LaRen616

I guess I will be the oddball, I used to watch her show, I've probably seen every episode, I liked her positive based training. But I always had an issue with her complaining about fat dogs but then she was always giving them treats, however I have heard her say that the dog doesn't need to have a treat every time, they can get a "good boy" or a pet. 

Everyone has their methods of training dogs, I much preferred her training ways over Caesar Millan's ways. 

Regardless of who's fault it was, everyone makes mistakes, lots of stupid mistakes are made every day. 

She has helped a lot of people with her training, so I have nothing bad to say about her.


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## Baillif

Have been bit before. Didn't cry on the internet about it. Didn't get on Facebook. Didn't try to lure the dog off me with a cookie either.


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## SuperG

Unless it was an Alabama Mal....it's probably not so bad.

Alabama Mals ..I hate Alabama Mals.


SuperG


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## Stonevintage

Apparently sometime in May is Nat'l Dog Bite Prevention week. She is one of the members of the coalition that sponsor it. I'm not sure how she should have reacted to let this news out so soon ahead of the event. Bad timing lol...

https://www.avma.org/Events/pethealth/Pages/Dog-Bite-Prevention-Week-Coalition.aspx


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! G. :laugh:

All I know is if you say something on FB even mildly supportive of VS you are the ...... :angryfire: <deep goblin voice> devil <end deep goblin voice>

What I want to know is why SO many police departments are going along with this to begin with? They really want the PR that much? They are even asking and inviting her on her FB page. 

Most of those guys know her training is mostly 'rubbish' that she's trying to push on them. So why even open the door to all this if they're going to get so riled because she says one negative comment about a handler after a bad bite?

This is Victoria Stillwell, the cookie pushing purely positive lady?! So don't invite her to begin with. :shrug:

If you think about it, it was bound to happen. 




SuperG said:


> Unless it was an Alabama Mal....it's probably not so bad.
> 
> Alabama Mals ..I hate Alabama Mals.
> 
> 
> SuperG


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## Dainerra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL! G. :laugh:
> 
> 
> What I want to know is why SO many police departments are going along with this to begin with? They really want the PR that much? They are even asking and inviting her on her FB page.
> 
> Most of those guys know her training is mostly 'rubbish' that she's trying to push on them. So why even open the door to all this if they're going to get so riled because she says one negative comment about a handler after a bad bite?
> 
> This is Victoria Stillwell, the cookie pushing purely positive lady?! So don't invite her to begin with. :shrug:
> 
> If you think about it, it was bound to happen.


they want the PR because getting your dept in the public eye can be the difference between ending the program because of funding cuts or buying vests for the dogs. Again, though, the ones making those decisions may not even be involved in the program. If the city council says "hey we're going to cut your program unless you do something. go on this show and the public might be willing to pay a bit more in taxes to keep you working" or just that they think it will increase tourism or a million other reasons. Yes, the requests usually come from someone in the unit but that doesn't mean that they think it's a good idea. And, of course, there will always be people willing to go on TV for their 15 minutes of fame. Cops aren't immune to that.

The reason they are crying foul is that she said the dog was unstable and bit because of handler error. That could open the officer to losing his job, lawsuits being filed by those who have been taken down by this K9, and possibly the dog being put down because the department doesn't want to risk a future lawsuit. It can have a lot more serious repercussions than a sport dog or a companion dog making the same mistake.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The screen shots of the post she made have no mention of the dog being unstable?

Here is a quote "Combination of wrong place at the wrong time and major handler error."

Another friend hypothesized that the depts. involved may also be getting paid for their time. I don't see a problem with that.

But sheesh....Ceaser Milan probably would have been better then VS! He's taken some nasty bites and kept his cool on the air.


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## Gwenhwyfair

VS posts her side of the story.



> One of the exercises the units went through was to get their dogs in and out of an engaged helicopter so that they could get the dogs used to unique environment of being in and around a noisy, windy helicopter for work purposes. I was thrilled to be told that I would be allowed to ride in the helicopter as an observer – I’ve never flown in one and have always wanted to. After a lunch break, I got in the back seats of the helicopter with my small camera. As they fired it up and got the blades rolling, the dog outside was clearly becoming revved up – excited to ‘go to work’ – and prepping for the type of work these dogs are bred and trained to do.
> 
> I was not doing any training (behavioral or otherwise) with this dog. Mostly, I was just excited to get to fly in a helicopter! Although the nature of this job means that anyone could potentially be put in potentially dangerous situations at times, I have always felt that safety has always been our guys’ number one priority.
> 
> When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn’t release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer.
> 
> The dog and handler are an experienced team, and the handler took care to visit me in the hospital to wish me well, which I very much appreciate – even if I was in shock and drugged up so much that I don’t really recall much.
> 
> Of course no one wanted this bite to happen, and those involved feel badly about it.
> 
> Ultimately, however, while it all happened very quickly, I do feel that the nature of the bite happened in such a way that it would have happened no matter who was sitting in my seat. Again, while I wish this hadn’t happened and feel it could have been avoided, I want to emphasize that I have the utmost respect for those that put their lives on the line to protect our communities.
> 
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> *Social Media Stinks Sometimes*
> As I said above, I thank each of you who has reached out to me in support to wish me a speedy recovery from the bottom of my heart. Sometimes we all use social media like Facebook to vent, to share, and to preach. While my original post on this from yesterday was some of all of those, it also brought out some really nasty responses. I’m a big girl, and I know that being in the public eye via television and other platforms opens me up to criticism from those who disagree with me – in some ways, I even relish it if it means moving the ball further down the field in our understanding of our pets and how they think, feel and learn.
> 
> Even so, however, I am sometimes still shocked by the hate and vitriol that can be spewed from some of those who hide behind this digital curtain and hurl insults and venom at those they feel threatened by. The debate about training methods in both the pet dog world and the working dog world is intense. I feel passionately about advancing my beliefs for the sake of dogs who don’t have their own voice. I know that those on the other side feel equally strongly about it, and as long as they engage in the debate respectfully and with a measure of sanity and human decency, I’m good with it.
> 
> But when people actively go out of their way to wish harm on you, or to celebrate when truly bad things happen to you, it’s terrible.


 Read her full account here: https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/


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## Slamdunc

*I was not doing any training (behavioral or otherwise) with this dog. Mostly, I was just excited to get to fly in a helicopter! Although the nature of this job means that anyone could potentially be put in potentially dangerous situations at times, I have always felt that safety has always been our guys’ number one priority.

When the dog was finally released to jump into the helicopter, he immediately saw me there and instinctively went in for a bite. He was on for a few seconds and didn’t release until he was pulled off by the handler and another officer.*

If this was a training exercise as described above, the dog should have been muzzled. If the dog was getting "revved up", it should have been very obvious to the handler and the "behavioral expert." If this dog wasn't already acclimated to the helicopter there is no way that I would put it in with out a muzzle. Especially, if a film crew and civilians were in it. Not too mention the pilot, I would want him calm and comfortable, focused on flying and not my "revved up" dog. 

Boomer gets "revved up" when getting into the SWAT van and going on a op. I am careful to not let him tag any of the operators. Sometimes, that involves holding his face and muzzle really tightly for the whole ride. Or, I can simply give him a kong to hold in his mouth. That works really well for reactive dogs and keeping some dogs calm. Going into a helicopter, he would be muzzled for sure. The last thing that I would want is a stressed out, "revved up" dog flying a couple of hundred feet off the ground, that wasn't muzzled. Plan A, Plan B.

Regarding the bite and the drains, normally you do not stitch a dog bite. They always get infected when stitched. Drains were a smart move.


----------



## carmspack

don't know the person being discussed , don't know anything about their theories , publications, or shows .

agree with Slamdunc . This was an invited guest. Their safety should have been ensured .

The dog could have targeted any occupant of the helicopter .


----------



## MadLab

Does any one know what she is actually trying to do in this show?



> I was not doing any training (behavioral or otherwise) with this dog.


What training could she possibly do with an already trained police dog? She has no qualification or experience!

She promotes 'positive only' pet training and built a lucrative business around it. I tried to watch it before but it is hard. I seen one episode where she was afraid to handle a slightly jumpy English bulldog and a kid ended up getting bitten right on front of her by this dog. All the dog needed was a bit of clear guidance and the incident wouldn't have happened.

With VS your gonna get well scripted pc but you are not gonna see a real dog handler or trainer. She will do a disservice to real handlers and trainers with her new shows imo, and to dogs in general with her pure 'positive' methods. 

VS


> As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it’s your fault – there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client).


She how she makes a dig at CM here too. If he gets bitten he has 'failed the dog, and the human client'. 

And her bite prevention is what, give the dog a cookie or put it down??

She is a fake and doesn't deserve the publicity.


----------



## llombardo

Yes the dog should have been muzzled and I do believe that she is correct--anyone in that seat would have been bit. What I don't understand is why the dog did engage if not commanded to do so? I would think there should be more control over the dog on the handlers part. She obviously thought there was and trusted that they knew how to handle the dog, so I would also agree that this was an handler error.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

....and pointing out handler error does NOT equal condemnation of all police officers in the entire country. That's the problem here. 

We can be very supportive of Police and their K9s while saying, whoa, in this case sounds like either proper procedure was not followed or there is a 'hole' in the training that needs to be fixed. 

As Jim notes, had it been the helicopter pilot attacked it could have been a far worse outcome.

Further, while I vehemently disagree with VS PO training methods (Blitz made a good post in another thread about the damage it has been causing to dogs and owners) it does not justify some of the very hateful things that were said regarding her, not so much on this board but elsewhere and on FB. She is not a heinous criminal and she is still a human being. Love thy neighbor.

On FB I dared to express just a bit of compassion for her and you would think I was out to destroy everything this country holds dear whilst destroying the morale fiber of humanity.

People need to get a grip.

o.k. off my soap box.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Slamdunc said:


> *<snipped> *Regarding the bite and the drains, normally you do not stitch a dog bite. They always get infected when stitched. Drains were a smart move.


For deeper puncture wounds, definitely the smart move.

Shallow tears and rips usually don't need surgical drains. She probably needed IV drip ABX for a day or so.

Sometimes they'll leave them open to drain naturally too with oral ABX back up on board if not too deep.

I've experienced both types of treatments for surgical and other wounds.


----------



## SuperG

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ..
> On FB I dared to express just a bit of compassion for her and you would think I was out to destroy everything this country holds dear whilst destroying the morale fiber of humanity.
> 
> .


You need to incorporate an "all positive" approach to your FB posts I'm guessing.


SuperG


----------



## Jenny720

I don't think any doctor wound stitch a animal wound it most likely would cause an abscess if so. In the past I heard about vs is that she is supposedly there to help promote positive training to the realm of police dog training. Why the dog was not muzzled is puzzling as im sure the pilot would normally request a muzzle especially a dog who is excited and newly introduced to helicopters. The handler I would think as a precaution muzzle the dog. And vs I would think would have some common sense and stay out of this dogs way. Didn't she or someone say the dog was unstable and issues were being worked on????No one was using their head in this scenario and how accidents happen-as of course it is the handlers main responsibility. Of course the camera is rolling, and the next thing you know vs is complaining on the pain she is in and how inconvenient it is and posting her incident all over social media. I hope some one is watching over these dogs as vs is clearly not.


----------



## Slamdunc

_VS
Quote:
As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it’s your fault – there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client)._

This is exactly it! Precautions should have been taken, warning signals *she* should have heeded, and triggers that *she *should have known to avoid. 

I'd say that she completely failed to read the warning signs, triggers and taken the necessary precautions. Everyone that I work with realizes that ultimately during training we our responsible for our own safety. If I was in that Helicopter and got bit, there would be no one to blame but myself. If I put my self in a bad position then I assume the risks. I am around aggressive dogs all day, I do building searches with them and may even take their leash and work them. But, I am constantly reading the dog and communicating with the handler. I am not simply a passive target, hoping that I don't get bit. If I see the dog getting "revved up" and get bit, well I need to accept my role in allowing it to happen. 

I'd also add it's a dog bite, she needs to toughen up or not work with dogs with teeth. It's an occupational risk, if your the "expert" and dog behaviorist then you have a even higher responsibility to ensure the dog is handled safely. I always have a plan, even if it means tripping the guy that is faster.


----------



## llombardo

Slamdunc said:


> _VS
> Quote:
> As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it’s your fault – there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client)._
> 
> This is exactly it! Precautions should have been taken, warning signals *she* should have heeded, and triggers that *she *should have known to avoid.
> 
> I'd say that she completely failed to read the warning signs, triggers and taken the necessary precautions. Everyone that I work with realizes that ultimately during training we our responsible for our own safety. If I was in that Helicopter and got bit, there would be no one to blame but myself. If I put my self in a bad position then I assume the risks. I am around aggressive dogs all day, I do building searches with them and may even take their leash and work them. But, I am constantly reading the dog and communicating with the handler. I am not simply a passive target, hoping that I don't get bit. If I see the dog getting "revved up" and get bit, well I need to accept my role in allowing it to happen.
> 
> I'd also add it's a dog bite, she needs to toughen up or not work with dogs with teeth. It's an occupational risk, if your the "expert" and dog behaviorist then you have a even higher responsibility to ensure the dog is handled safely. I always have a plan, even if it means tripping the guy that is faster.


I think this is unfair. They asked her if she would like to participate, she has never trained with this dog, in fact she probably has no training experience at all with a working dog. Pet dog and working dog like this one are two very different kinds of dogs. She trusted them to know their dog and to keep not only her safe but anybody that is around the dog. If they choose to hold seminars and have people attend they assume the liability. If I went to a seminar and they asked me to participate I would think they knew what they were doing and wouldn't put safety on a back burner. The handler on the other hand knows or should know their dog. At the very least it should have been muzzled. The exercise seems to start outside of the helicopter, the dog was already revved up, she was a sitting duck.


----------



## Jenny720

Slamdunc said:


> _VS
> Quote:
> As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it?s your fault ? there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client)._
> 
> This is exactly it! Precautions should have been taken, warning signals *she* should have heeded, and triggers that *she *should have known to avoid.
> 
> I'd say that she completely failed to read the warning signs, triggers and taken the necessary precautions. Everyone that I work with realizes that ultimately during training we our responsible for our own safety. If I was in that Helicopter and got bit, there would be no one to blame but myself. If I put my self in a bad position then I assume the risks. I am around aggressive dogs all day, I do building searches with them and may even take their leash and work them. But, I am constantly reading the dog and communicating with the handler. I am not simply a passive target, hoping that I don't get bit. If I see the dog getting "revved up" and get bit, well I need to accept my role in allowing it to happen.
> 
> I'd also add it's a dog bite, she needs to toughen up or not work with dogs with teeth. It's an occupational risk, if your the "expert" and dog behaviorist then you have a even higher responsibility to ensure the dog is handled safely. I always have a plan, even if it means tripping the guy that is faster.


Exactly this-by vs taking no responsibility in this and mainly focusing on herself is one of the things that sent me red flags.


----------



## Slamdunc

llombardo said:


> I think this is unfair. They asked her if she would like to participate, she has never trained with this dog, in fact she probably has no training experience at all with a working dog. Pet dog and working dog like this one are two very different kinds of dogs. She trusted them to know their dog and to keep not only her safe but anybody that is around the dog. If they choose to hold seminars and have people attend they assume the liability. If I went to a seminar and they asked me to participate I would think they knew what they were doing and wouldn't put safety on a back burner. The handler on the other hand knows or should know their dog. At the very least it should have been muzzled. The exercise seems to start outside of the helicopter, the dog was already revved up, she was a sitting duck.


She is the one with the TV show, the "renowned" dog trainer and personality. The handler did not come up with the concept of the TV show or the filming. While I do agree the handler is responsible for his dog's actions, I think she needs to accept some of the responsibility too. 

Dogs are dogs, they all communicate through body language. They all give off the warning signs and triggers that she discusses. Any decent dog hander, dog owner or "Behaviorist" (I use that term loosely) should recognize these signals. She clearly saw the dog was getting "revved up" but was to preoccupied with going for a helicopter ride to process it and address it. That is an issue. When working with dogs you need to be constantly vigilant. I am willing to bet that Cesar Milan is the same situation would have stopped the handler and not allowed the dog to get in the helicopter in that "revved up" state of mind. I'm not a huge Cesar fan, but I like some of his stuff. I just don't like his heavy handed, border line abusive techniques that are very carefully edited. He can read dogs though, and surely would have seen this coming. 

Like I said before, I would not have put myself in the position that she did. I've been bitten plenty of times and I'm not very fond of it. Occupational hazard when training dogs. I would have seen the dog getting "revved up" as she did and described and stopped the handler. I would have had him calm and contain the dog, then progress. As I also said the dog should have been muzzled, it is really something that probably could have been avoided. 

Fortunately for her, she wasn't filming a segment with Siegfried and Roy. 

I don't think I am being unfair. When you work with Patrol dogs you accept a certain amount of risk. If you are willing to get into a helicopter with an unmuzzled, "revved up" dog, then you should understand the risk and getting bit is definitely a possibility. If you are a dog trainer, and the "EXPERT" you should take charge of things on YOUR TV set. She has to accept some of the responsibility for the other members of her staff . After all people, rightfully or wrongfully, are taking advice and guidance from her. I am just stunned that she couldn't recognize the behavior of an aggressive dog. 101 dog training.


----------



## gsdsar

You know, not a fan of hers, but she was told to be inside the helo and she was seated and the dog was put on. And gave her one serious heck of a bite. 

How did she do something wrong? How is she responsible for not stopping this? Was she siting wrong, maybe had the wrong leg crossed, was her seatbelt not fastened? What should she have done different to stop this, aside from not being there in the helo at all. 

Seriously asking here. I get these dogs are loaded. I get that and she did recognize that. But these dogs don't work in a vacuum either. On an actual op, I would assume other LE would also be on the helicopter. Why is it ok for the dog to be so far from the handler that it had a chance to make the choice and have the ability to bite her? What if this was an actual mission? Now a LE is seriously bit, at a very inconvenient time. 

If she insisted on being on the helo, and the handler knew it was going to be an issue, then it is his fault for not saying, heck no. If the handler had no idea how his dog was going to react, precautions should have been made? Why on earth was the dog allowed to get to distance to take the bite??(there could be a reason, depending on what seat she was on). 

But I don't see what she could have done different. 

Yes, work with this type of fog long enough and you are going to get bit, but that does not expunge responsibility if the handler.


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## Gwenhwyfair

What Lisa and GSDsar said. 

In blue. The precaution should have been to not invite a well known cookie pushing time out the "baby" trainer to police training to begin with.

Really, do these depts. and trainers want to stand up, turn their back to the dog, to 'wait' for it to stop jumping and biting? 

It was bound happen.

As you said earlier, more precautions should have been taken.

Ultimately it's the entire departments fault, they let PR or money or whatever over ride common sense.

(in edit, VS readily admits she is not an expert in working with these types of dogs, just read her FB, she is pretty candid about that. Her goal is to learn so she can train them using her PO methods.)




Slamdunc said:


> _VS
> Quote:
> As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it’s your fault – there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client)._
> 
> This is exactly it! *Precautions should have been taken, warning signals* *she* should have heeded, and triggers that *she *should have known to avoid.
> 
> I'd say that she completely failed to read the warning signs, triggers and taken the necessary precautions. Everyone that I work with realizes that ultimately during training we our responsible for our own safety. If I was in that Helicopter and got bit, there would be no one to blame but myself. If I put my self in a bad position then I assume the risks. I am around aggressive dogs all day, I do building searches with them and may even take their leash and work them. But, I am constantly reading the dog and communicating with the handler. I am not simply a passive target, hoping that I don't get bit. If I see the dog getting "revved up" and get bit, well I need to accept my role in allowing it to happen.
> 
> I'd also add it's a dog bite, she needs to toughen up or not work with dogs with teeth. It's an occupational risk, if your the "expert" and dog behaviorist then you have a even higher responsibility to ensure the dog is handled safely. I always have a plan, even if it means tripping the guy that is faster.


----------



## gsdsar

We posted at the same time, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Also, here is her complete quote regarding dog bite prevention and warning signs:



> As most of you know, I do a great deal of work with dog bite prevention among the pet dog community. A core belief of responsible pet trainers is that if you are training an aggressive pet dog and he bites you, it’s your fault – there are precautions you should have taken, warning signals you should have heeded, and triggers you should have known to avoid. When that happens in the pet dog world, the trainer has failed the dog (and the human client). *While I now have a more complete understanding of the mental and physical toll a severe dog bite can have on the victim, this case is a different beast altogether*. This was a working dog who, quite simply, is trained to apprehend people. And I have had the incredible learning experience of being on the other end of an apprehension!


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## Gwenhwyfair

:laugh: 



superg said:


> you need to incorporate an "all positive" approach to your fb posts i'm guessing.:d
> 
> 
> superg


----------



## wolfy dog

As most tv personalities, they eventually get over-confident until they meet their match. CM was bitten by a Labrador! At least VS was bitten by a GSD, which is not so humiliating.
But I also see this with many other trainers around me who are not tv-famous. Many have been bitten by being too confident in a situation when handling aggressive dogs and known-biters. I have worked with dogs for more than 30 years and (knock on wood) have never been bitten, not that I never work with aggressive dogs, but I know what they are capable of. Ironically many owners of such dogs think I am overly cautious when I ask them to keep their dog leashed while I put an X pen panel in front of the door before I ring the doorbell. Or, when things seem to be out of my league, I refer them to someone else I trust.


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## Jenny720

Well according to this post she was not where she should of been in the helicopter. She also should be aware of her limits as she does have a part to play in this incident also and is wiping her hands clean pretty quickly.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That post was made in reponse to her first, as she called it 'sharp post' before she deleted it. 

Also, a lot of people "said" they were there. Just because someone posts something up on FB, with the name wiped out, doesn't make it true.

That's why she wrote up her accounting as the person who was there and actually bit.




Jenny720 said:


> Well according to this post she was not where she should of been in the helicopter. She also should be aware of her limits as she does have a part to play in this incident also and is wiping her hands clean pretty quickly.


----------



## Jenny720

https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


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## Gwenhwyfair

While I don't think in this particular case being seated in a helicopter, per the invitation and instructions of the police officers there, was _her_ being over confident.....

I do think she's over confident believing she can learn about and then train these types of working dogs with her methods only. If she continues I'm sure more bites are in her future.




wolfy dog said:


> As most tv personalities, they eventually get over-confident until they meet their match. CM was bitten by a Labrador! At least VS was bitten by a GSD, which is not so humiliating.
> But I also see this with many other trainers around me who are not tv-famous. Many have been bitten by being too confident in a situation when handling aggressive dogs and known-biters. I have worked with dogs for more than 30 years and (knock on wood) have never been bitten, not that I never work with aggressive dogs, but I know what they are capable of. Ironically many owners of such dogs think I am overly cautious when I ask them to keep their dog leashed while I put an X pen panel in front of the door before I ring the doorbell. Or, when things seem to be out of my league, I refer them to someone else I trust.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Posted earlier Jenny.




Jax08 said:


> Interesting read
> https://www.dogtraining.world/topic/victoria-stilwell-bit-bad-by-a-police-k9-dog/


----------



## Jenny720

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That post was made in reponse to her first, as she called it 'sharp post' before she deleted it.
> 
> Also, a lot of people "said" they were there. Just because someone posts something up on FB, with the name wiped out, doesn't make it true.
> 
> That's why she wrote up her accounting as the person who was there and actually bit.


No it doesnt but according to he elaborate track record easy to believe and yes there is another side to the story.


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> Well according to this post she was not where she should of been in the helicopter. She also should be aware of her limits as she does have a part to play in this incident also and is wiping her hands clean pretty quickly.



can't read that. picture is to small


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The only other side of the story I'll listen to is the ones put forth by the handler and those at/in the helicopter at the time this occurred.

Clearly people are pushing agendas on FB that have little to do with facts.

Speaking of agendas....Why on earth the PDs want to even fool with VS and her goofy training methods is the biggest question I have?

Good trainers know and use the 4 quadrants, why would they limit themselves???

Further, why do they want to promote her cockamamie training theories to the detriment of more and more pet owners who will watch this series to begin with?

So I find it a really upside down world the people are blaming VS for getting bit because PD K9 units are *inviting* her to push her training on them and the public are the people who denigrate her and her PO methods from the start.




Jenny720 said:


> No it doesnt but according to he elaborate track record easy to believe and yes there is another side to the story.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

wolfy dog said:


> As most tv personalities, they eventually get over-confident until they meet their match. CM was bitten by a Labrador!


Yes, and he didn't just get bit, he provoked that bite and then said "I didn't see that coming".


----------



## Jenny720

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The only other side of the story I'll listen to is the ones put forth by the handler and those at/in the helicopter at the time this occurred.
> 
> Clearly people are pushing agendas on FB that have little to do with facts.
> 
> Speaking of agendas....Why on earth the PDs want to even fool with VS and her goofy training methods is the biggest question I have?
> 
> Good trainers know and use the 4 quadrants, why would they limit themselves???
> 
> Further, why do they want to promote her cockamamie training theories to the detriment of more and more pet owners who will watch this series to begin with?
> 
> So I find it a really upside down world the people are blaming VS for getting bit because PD K9 units are *inviting* her to push her training on them and the public are the people who denigrate her and her PO methods from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No it doesnt but according to he elaborate track record easy to believe and yes there is another side to the story.
Click to expand...

She also admitted to being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Who knows maybe we will all get to watch it on the Telly-


----------



## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well according to this post she was not where she should of been in the helicopter. She also should be aware of her limits as she does have a part to play in this incident also and is wiping her hands clean pretty quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can't read that. picture is to small
Click to expand...


----------



## gsdsar

Jenny720, whose responsibility is it to ensure the safety of their dog and those around them. The handlers. Period. Do I think the handler is inexperienced, a bad handler or any such nonsense, no. Do I think that he should have advocated more loudly and refused to load his dog if she were in the helo, yes. 

It's the person with the most experience who has to take responsibility, not the person with most most TV time.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Jenny, The Working Dogs Dry Goods owner as it was one of his pages that really went after VS. He has changed his tone and has actually responded to VS newest post. FYI.




Jenny720 said:


>


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Highly unlikely.

But at the end of the day, for what ever reason, these PDs are at the very least going to be indirectly promoting her training methods. The same methods for which people are deriding her and this bite incident. 

You see the problem here?



Jenny720 said:


> She also admitted to being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Who knows maybe we will all get to watch it on the Telly-


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Lol its all academic until she turns up at your door and offers you 10k to do some shooting and use some of your dogs. I get why some trainers like Mike would be willing to let her use their dogs and do the actual handling for the money. They are business men after all. Heck I'd even let her feed my mal some treats for that kind of money and pretend she was training. 

However a publicly funded police Dept allowing her near their dogs or to even pretend she was training them??? Someone made a bad decision.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I can see it now.

After the series is over.

World Renowned Police K9 Trainer, Victoria Stilwell.

You too can train you dogs _positively only_ with cookies and time outs just like top police K9s.

:crazy:





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol its all academic until she turns up at your door and offers you 10k to do some shooting and use some of your dogs. I get why some trainers like Mike would be willing to let her use their dogs and do the actual handling for the money. They are business men after all. Heck I'd even let her feed my mal some treats for that kind of money and pretend she was training.
> 
> However a publicly funded police Dept allowing her near their dogs or to even pretend she was training them??? Someone made a bad decision.


----------



## Muskeg

Ok, the bite shouldn't have happened. And getting bitten is not fun, I'm not going to gloat. But in the few clips I've seen, VS is clearly both afraid of many dogs, extremely uncomfortable with aggression, and just seem like someone who plain doesn't much care for dogs. 

Why any PD would train with her, I don't know. But being on TV can be a big deal to some people. Or maybe they didn't do their research on her experience and training theories. 

But to compare her to Cesar Millan is not fair. Cesar clearly loves dogs, he has heart, is kind to the dog owners, and I've watched him deal with actual truly aggressive dogs. Not always in ways I agree with, but he is not afraid of dogs, not at all. For all that he's rarely been bitten. When he is, he's not sitting there wallowing or blaming the dog or owner.

He does know dogs, he can read dogs. He's far from perfect, but I would enjoy spending the day with him, for sure. As for VS, you couldn't pay me to spend the day with her, and I wouldn't let her come close to any of my dogs. 

VS is putting herself into situations with a type of dog that clearly makes her very nervous and uncomfortable. When that happens, accidents are even more likely.


----------



## Jenny720

gsdsar said:


> Jenny720, whose responsibility is it to ensure the safety of their dog and those around them. The handlers. Period. Do I think the handler is inexperienced, a bad handler or any such nonsense, no. Do I think that he should have advocated more loudly and refused to load his dog if she were in the helo, yes.
> 
> It's the person with the most experience who has to take responsibility, not the person with most most TV time.


I never said it was not the handlers sole responsibility. In the end it's is always the handler or owners responsibility directly or indirectly. 
It puts many people and animals in danger though when you are also unskilled or unfamiliar with a situation and pretend to be. No acknowledgment of this is perplexing.


----------



## Muskeg

Yes, Jenny, exactly my point. VS put herself in a situation that clearly made her uncomfortable and was well beyond her experience. 

It would be like taking a guided trip up Everest . Sure, it is the guide's job to keep their clients safe, but if the client makes an error or fails to follow instructions, well... then you've got an Into Thin Air situation... and who is really to blame?


----------



## Jenny720

I agree you can not compare vs and Cesar Milan even and there names should not appear in the same page. Vs does make people realize it is very difficult to balance it all. I'm a big fan of Cesar and even appreciate him more after this thread as he does genuinely cares for the dogs and has a gift.


----------



## Jenny720

Muskeg said:


> Yes, Jenny, exactly my point. VS put herself in a situation that clearly made her uncomfortable and was well beyond her experience.
> 
> It would be like taking a guided trip up Everest . Sure, it is the guide's job to keep their clients safe, but if the client makes an error or fails to follow instructions, well... then you've got an Into Thin Air situation... and who is really to blame?


Yes I it makes all involved to be at risk. I hope nothing happens to this dog.


----------



## voodoolamb

I dont get all the comments on this thread that say VS is pushing P+ on the K9 units or that she is actually training the working dogs herself. 

Did I miss something? The trailer for the show looks like it is just a nice documentary showing the important work these dogs do and the incredible bond between handler in dog. Nothing in the trailer about training whatsoever so I am kinda confused. 

I was never a fan of VS. I found her to be overly dramatic and annoying. I always thought the proper term for female dog applied to her quite well! So I never watched her show, read her books or anything. Does she really advocate putting dogs down with frequency? 

Meh. I never thought dog training shows make for good television. Too much important stuff is edited out, the amount of repetition needed, the distance and duration - the time commitment (especially with problem dogs). It just seems like a total disservice to dogs everywhere, John Q public gets the impression that fido should know this stuff by the next commercial break.

I think the only show I liked was the one with Joel Silverman. Anyone remember the name of that show? What I remember of it it seemed like a nice balanced approach mostly P+ with corrections as needed. Not a lot of drama. Probably too boring for today's TV audience.


----------



## llombardo

Slamdunc said:


> She is the one with the TV show, the "renowned" dog trainer and personality. The handler did not come up with the concept of the TV show or the filming. While I do agree the handler is responsible for his dog's actions, I think she needs to accept some of the responsibility too.
> 
> Dogs are dogs, they all communicate through body language. They all give off the warning signs and triggers that she discusses. Any decent dog hander, dog owner or "Behaviorist" (I use that term loosely) should recognize these signals. She clearly saw the dog was getting "revved up" but was to preoccupied with going for a helicopter ride to process it and address it. That is an issue. When working with dogs you need to be constantly vigilant. I am willing to bet that Cesar Milan is the same situation would have stopped the handler and not allowed the dog to get in the helicopter in that "revved up" state of mind. I'm not a huge Cesar fan, but I like some of his stuff. I just don't like his heavy handed, border line abusive techniques that are very carefully edited. He can read dogs though, and surely would have seen this coming.
> 
> Like I said before, I would not have put myself in the position that she did. I've been bitten plenty of times and I'm not very fond of it. Occupational hazard when training dogs. I would have seen the dog getting "revved up" as she did and described and stopped the handler. I would have had him calm and contain the dog, then progress. As I also said the dog should have been muzzled, it is really something that probably could have been avoided.
> 
> Fortunately for her, she wasn't filming a segment with Siegfried and Roy.
> 
> I don't think I am being unfair. When you work with Patrol dogs you accept a certain amount of risk. If you are willing to get into a helicopter with an unmuzzled, "revved up" dog, then you should understand the risk and getting bit is definitely a possibility. If you are a dog trainer, and the "EXPERT" you should take charge of things on YOUR TV set. She has to accept some of the responsibility for the other members of her staff . After all people, rightfully or wrongfully, are taking advice and guidance from her. I am just stunned that she couldn't recognize the behavior of an aggressive dog. 101 dog training.


She wasn't filming anything. This was a seminar. She doesn't work with them and doesn't claim to. She was an invited guest. They asked her if she wanted to go in the helicopter. They should have told her where to sit if there was a chance of any issues. So what the dog was getting revved up, if she isn't familiar with these dogs and trusts the handler what is she suppose to do? Not to mention the elicited was probably so loud I doubt anyone could hear anything.


----------



## llombardo

I think everyone believes this was part of her tv show and it wasn't. I don't even think she ever was around the dogs that were at the seminar, which she went to as an invited guest. She even said that the training they do with the dogs isn't strictly positive but progressive(if I remember right).


----------



## carmspack

so who is the idiot?

I have no interest in this personality trainer, her methods or agenda .

She was an invited guest . 
In a helicopter there is limited space .
How can she be in the wrong place ?
And even if she is - the dog doesn't take 
aggressive action to a neutral person .

A police dog that cannot be in and under control
has LIMITED use . Situations where they can not
be deployed.

that is not good.

so it comes down to the basics of selection, training, and handler . Wrongful bite.

Dogs were loaded into helicopters all the time , crowded with young soldiers , highly charged emotional energies (Viet Nam).

A dog can't discharge on fellow officers , partners, etc.

Anyone in that helicopter could have been bitten .
By that thinking was the dog too revved and anyone close by at ground level a potential bite victim.

just plain bad management.


----------



## gsdsar

carmspack said:


> so who is the idiot?
> 
> I have no interest in this personality trainer, her methods or agenda .
> 
> She was an invited guest .
> In a helicopter there is limited space .
> How can she be in the wrong place ?
> And even if she is - the dog doesn't take
> aggressive action to a neutral person .
> 
> A police dog that cannot be in and under control
> has LIMITED use . Situations where they can not
> be deployed.
> 
> that is not good.
> 
> so it comes down to the basics of selection, training, and handler . Wrongful bite.
> 
> Dogs were loaded into helicopters all the time , crowded with young soldiers , highly charged emotional energies (Viet Nam).
> 
> A dog can't discharge on fellow officers , partners, etc.
> 
> Anyone in that helicopter could have been bitten .
> By that thinking was the dog too revved and anyone close by at ground level a potential bite victim.
> 
> just plain bad management.


Carmen, that's exactly what I was trying to say. 

As much as I am not a fan of this particular trainer, I can't see how it was her fault. 

Now if she got in between a dog a decoy, to get a better shot, then yes, but that was not the case here.


----------



## carmspack

I know gsdsar - I agree with you and some of llombardo's recent posts.


----------



## LuvShepherds

I don't blame her for the bite but for putting herself in a situation where she has no idea what she is doing. I've watched her show before, and find her methods puzzling. If a dog jumps, she tethers it. That's one way to keep it from jumping but it's not teaching the dog how to stop jumping, only how to be tied up when guests walk into a house. A lot of her methods don't make sense. I watched her teach a dog who supposedly didn't know how to release a toy without cookies, but using a second toy as a distraction. I tried it with my dog exactly as she does it, and he wanted both toys. Then he lost interest in either of them. Her method worked with the dog she was using as a demo because she found two high value toys that were new, expensive and both interesting to the dog. I'm also not convinced that the dog didn't already know how to drop one toy for another. I'm not going to buy two $20 toys to teach my dog one thing, when there are better and cheaper ways to do it.

I don't understand how her methods can be used for LEO dogs and if not, what value does she hold for LE?


----------



## carmspack

well -- she like all other citizens fund k9 units through taxes and pressure can be put on them to disband them entirely when too much , precious, tax money is chewed up by wrongful bite litigation.

Garnering from other posts on this thread I think she was doing a supportive piece of tv journalism displaying the uses of k9's ?

Back fire.


----------



## J and J M

I'm kinda curious what she was wearing. Could it have been one of those flight suits that kinda resemble a bite suit? Revved up dog being loaded into a closed space with one occupant in something resembling a bite suit would definitely confuse the dog.


----------



## gsdsar

J and J M said:


> I'm kinda curious what she was wearing. Could it have been one of those flight suits that kinda resemble a bite suit? Revved up dog being loaded into a closed space with one occupant in something resembling a bite suit would definitely confuse the dog.


But still not VS fault. Handler fault for not realizing the confusion.


----------



## carmspack

street dogs should not be sleeve happy

there is little excuse - confusion , bah, there are SPORTS , KNPV , Ring , American Street Ring , that will send a dog to work in a crowd , and only hit on the target .
In Campagne , which I trialed in , there were multiple decoys and the dog must only address the one posing a threat . 
The crowd and the judges followed you like spectators at a golf game , right beside the dog , who is wearing no collar , no leash .


----------



## Rosy831

carmspack said:


> street dogs should not be sleeve happy
> 
> there is little excuse - confusion , bah, there are SPORTS , KNPV , Ring , American Street Ring , that will send a dog to work in a crowd , and only hit on the target .
> In Campagne , which I trialed in , there were multiple decoys and the dog must only address the one posing a threat .
> The crowd and the judges followed you like spectators at a golf game , right beside the dog , who is wearing no collar , no leash .



This must be absolutely amazing to see!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> so who is the idiot?
> 
> I have no interest in this personality trainer, her methods or agenda .
> 
> She was an invited guest .
> In a helicopter there is limited space .
> How can she be in the wrong place ?
> And even if she is - the dog doesn't take
> aggressive action to a neutral person .
> 
> A police dog that cannot be in and under control
> has LIMITED use . Situations where they can not
> be deployed.
> 
> that is not good.
> 
> so it comes down to the basics of selection, training, and handler . Wrongful bite.
> 
> Dogs were loaded into helicopters all the time , crowded with young soldiers , highly charged emotional energies (Viet Nam).
> 
> A dog can't discharge on fellow officers , partners, etc.
> 
> Anyone in that helicopter could have been bitten .
> By that thinking was the dog too revved and anyone close by at ground level a potential bite victim.
> 
> just plain bad management.



Its almost like you were there and know the dog team... VS, just a victim trying to do some harmless journalism. Pays taxes in the USA too I guess. There's been enough said on this topic by people that were there. Enough said by VS. More then enough media content of VS pushing her purely positive agenda and how anything else is abusive. 

Once again, this person needs to stay away from working dogs and pets too. She hurts a lot more then she helps. Hopefully she quits messing around with what she doesnt understand.


----------



## selzer

It sounds like this incident really doesn't prove your point, though Blitzkrieg1. I really don't have a problem with her. Personally, I believe that if we have to use physical punishment to make an animal obey us, we're in the wrong business. That doesn't make me purely positive, but way too many people think they need to physically dominate animals to manage and train them. People who do not buy into this seem to threaten those who do I guess.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Punishment is not dominating a dog. Nor is it possible to effectively train most dogs without physical punishment, key word being effectively..but thats another topic.

This was my original statement. 

The wrong place was at a police training seminar or close to any kind of working dog. The wrong time was anytime. 
This type of trainer that sells people smoke, mirrors and lies that then has the temerity to put down and spread negative propoganda about trainers a thousand times better then her, drive me nuts. There's a lesson here somewhere..if you want to learn it.

I said it on her facebook page and said it here. Take it or leave it.


----------



## Slamdunc

Selzer,
I respectfully disagree with your post above. Corrections are needed with strong animals that disobey training. I'm not in the wrong business so far, at least when it comes to dogs and not people. Clickers and treats do not work with all dogs. Compulsion is needed with some dogs. Drive can and will override positive methods and compulsion is a required consequence. If you don't believe me, come out and watch my newest dog work in drive. Some dogs suddenly become "deaf" and will not eat treats when there is some thing better in view than string cheese or a biscuit. Purely positive is great 95% of the time. It is the other 5% that you better have an effective plan and a means of enforcement. Hopefully, with out getting bit yourself. 

I am 95% positive, even with my Police K-9's, but i am stern and enforce trained commands immediately and clearly when they are not followed. I am not dealing with Lassie and Lassie would be a poor Police K-9. IMHO. 

I've already posted my thoughts on this training revolution in the helicopter. A muzzle should have been used. But VS, upon seeing the amped up dog should have "indexed" the exercise. She is just as responsible as the handler, IMO. Both are at fault, as well as the person that set up the exercise and thought it would be ok to be there with this dog. 

Been there and done similar training exercises that were designed by non K-9 handlers or K-9 SWAT operators. Came close to biting a few "safety officers" and lost my mind. K-9 training is different than SWAT training or Helicopter rides. The training and participants need to be evaluated in advance with the dog's reaction in mind. If a dog is aggressive or "revved up", change it's state and go to work. If you see it and don't stop the exercise, then that is on you. I certainly wouldn't let a dog in an agitated state in a van, room or helicopter with me. I'd stop that immediately and tell the handler to straighten his dog out. VS is supposed to be an "expert" on dog behavior. She should have known enough to recognize an aggressive dog, if not, she is in the wrong business. I do feel some compassion for her. I just think that being in that situation regularly, you need to watch out for yourself. If i get bit, it's on me for the most part. No hard feelings and no facebook rants. When the bleeding stops, I go back to working dogs and decoying.


----------



## wolfy dog

Slamdunc;7750834
I am 95% positive said:


> Deja was bred for LE and she opened up my mind to other techniques whatever-is-needed techniques, starting with positive if possible. Some aspects of that drive overrides treats and toys and needs to be corrected.


----------



## Chip18

While I don't have much use for VS as a trainer myself, my most remembered episode was the one with the dog barking in the car and she had the owner blackout the car windows and put a curtain behind the fronts seats!! 

And with the new show?? It sounds like her ultimate goal ,was to have her face in there with real working dogs and by "implication" the "uninformed" would "assume" that "PO" is truly the way to go???

And lots of "Pet People" with "Pack" issues quickly discover that cookies and a clicker aren't gonna cut it! But that aside ... and with more details revealed
"here" yeah I can understand why she thought "that" dog was out of control.

In the National Geographic magazine from a few years back there were MWD being transported and there were photos of a few of them being muzzled, while being transported with the troops. It sounds like that dog would have been one of those dogs.

As was stated, the handler made a mistake and in this case it sounds like the only mistake VS made was in "assuming" that the dog's handler knew what he was doing?? 

Never thought I'd ever be lending support to VS in anything dog related?? But this time yeah she got a raw deal.

Still she doesn't rehab dogs with "serious" I will hurt you bad if you get this wrong issues!" She "PTS" so she's still a "tool" in my book but this time ...yeah she got a raw deal.


----------



## Nigel

selzer said:


> It sounds like this incident really doesn't prove your point, though Blitzkrieg1. I really don't have a problem with her. Personally, I believe that if we have to use physical punishment to make an animal obey us, we're in the wrong business. That doesn't make me purely positive, but way too many people think they need to physically dominate animals to manage and train them. *People who do not buy into this seem to threaten those who do I guess*.


Do you suppose that might be due to some folks in the positive only crowd trying to vilify anyone using corrections? or pushing for legislation to ban tools using exaggerations, misinformation and outright lies to garner support? Not difficult to understand why some people would become defensive. 

As far as VS goes, if she can be completely honest with what she learns from being around serious working dogs, perhaps there's at least a slim chance she will change her perspective on different training methods. I'm skeptical, but you never know...


----------



## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> Selzer,
> I respectfully disagree with your post above. Corrections are needed with strong animals that disobey training. I'm not in the wrong business so far, at least when it comes to dogs and not people. *Clickers and treats do not work with all dogs. *Compulsion is needed with some dogs. Drive can and will override positive methods and compulsion is a required consequence. If you don't believe me, come out and watch my newest dog work in drive. Some dogs suddenly become "deaf" and will not eat treats when there is some thing better in view than string cheese or a biscuit. Purely positive is great 95% of the time. It is the other 5% that you better have an effective plan and a means of enforcement. Hopefully, with out getting bit yourself.
> 
> I am 95% positive, even with my Police K-9's, but i am stern and enforce trained commands immediately and clearly when they are not followed. I am not dealing with Lassie and Lassie would be a poor Police K-9. IMHO.
> 
> I've already posted my thoughts on this training revolution in the helicopter. A muzzle should have been used. But VS, upon seeing the amped up dog should have "indexed" the exercise. She is just as responsible as the handler, IMO. Both are at fault, as well as the person that set up the exercise and thought it would be ok to be there with this dog.
> 
> Been there and done similar training exercises that were designed by non K-9 handlers or K-9 SWAT operators. Came close to biting a few "safety officers" and lost my mind. K-9 training is different than SWAT training or Helicopter rides. The training and participants need to be evaluated in advance with the dog's reaction in mind. If a dog is aggressive or "revved up", change it's state and go to work. If you see it and don't stop the exercise, then that is on you. I certainly wouldn't let a dog in an agitated state in a van, room or helicopter with me. I'd stop that immediately and tell the handler to straighten his dog out. VS is supposed to be an "expert" on dog behavior. She should have known enough to recognize an aggressive dog, if not, she is in the wrong business. I do feel some compassion for her. I just think that being in that situation regularly, you need to watch out for yourself. If i get bit, it's on me for the most part. No hard feelings and no facebook rants. When the bleeding stops, I go back to working dogs and decoying.


I am not interested in your new dog, it's a mal -- not my thing. 

I take offense at the idea that anyone who is not pounding on their dog is using clickers and treats. Why does it have to be one way or the other. My guess is YOU use a lot more treats than I do. After puppy class, I don't use treats at all. I give treats to the dogs for nothing at all, not for training. I do not use clickers, ever. That doesn't mean I can't motivate my dogs. 

People don't seem to get it that there are other ways to train a dog. 

The more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to use corrections at all.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

OY. You and Jenny.

They told her to sit in the helicopter. She did. She was sitting in her seat waiting for a helicopter ride when she got bit. What more was she supposed to do while sitting in helicopter preparing to take off??

Look, I think PDs are making a bad bargain for PR getting involved with her and her series but to blame her for this is allowing a dislike for her and her methods to cloud the two important facts here; 1) it's not her fault when she's seated in a helicopter as she is told 2) the PDs are allowing someone to *use* them to push her PO baloney when they should NOT be.

If you read her own FB comments about this series is to 'be the voice for the dogs who have no voice'. 

The implication in that comment and others is very clear, Police K9 training methods are cruel. 

So setting aside the fact that she was seated in the helicopter not doing anything wrong really, the fact that the police are ignoring her real mission puts them even deeper into being at fault here.

Make no mistake, her ultimate goal is to get e collars and prongs and other tools she thinks are 'cruel' banned in the U.S. and these depts. are indirectly going to support that goal. I just wonder if they realize it?



Muskeg said:


> Yes, Jenny, exactly my point. VS put herself in a situation that clearly made her uncomfortable and was well beyond her experience.
> 
> It would be like taking a guided trip up Everest . Sure, it is the guide's job to keep their clients safe, but if the client makes an error or fails to follow instructions, well... then you've got an Into Thin Air situation... and who is really to blame?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hopefully the PDs will realize this and not participate in her series. The price for the PR may be heavy on several levels.

I say this even though I still don't think the bite was directly her fault. She's going to push through and continue on with the series, if the police continue to invite her.....




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its almost like you were there and know the dog team... VS, just a victim trying to do some harmless journalism. Pays taxes in the USA too I guess. There's been enough said on this topic by people that were there. Enough said by VS. More then enough media content of VS pushing her purely positive agenda and how anything else is abusive.
> 
> *Once again, this person needs to stay away from working dogs and pets too. She hurts a lot more then she helps. Hopefully she quits messing around with what she doesnt understand*.


----------



## MadLab

Question is would she ever be seen with a dog with a muzzle or e collar on. I don't think so. 

Good article by terrierman on VS and the Incident

Terrierman's Daily Dose: Victoria Stilwell Gets Seriously Bitten

Turns out Karma bite her lol.



> As far as VS goes, if she can be completely honest with what she learns from being around serious working dogs, perhaps there's at least a slim chance she will change her perspective on different training methods. I'm skeptical, but you never know...


Good point. She got a taste of reality anyways, and won't be so eager to glamourise working dogs in future. It could have been the perfect shot (for her image) flying into the sunset in chopper with the k9 krew but it seriously backfired. It is not just trained dogs that bite but any dog badly trained can have aggression issues that need real remedies. Maybe she will begin to realize that and be more tolerant of trainers who wish to work with aggressive dogs.


----------



## carmspack

good article - read on and you will see that the P dept has previously been called into question about 

"_never mind the fact that the sheriff's office is under a federal investigation for excessive use of force__ and civil liberties violations_.

*Ms. Stilwell is a foreigner to our shores,* so perhaps she should be forgiven for not being familiar with America's dogs of oppression, and their particularly nasty history in states like Georgia.


good use ? 

Big can of worms , this one is.


----------



## llombardo

She is well known for a reason and I'm sure she has helped plenty of dogs. Just because some don't agree with her training methods means nothing. She does her thing and others do their thing. If one doesn't like her methods don't use them, it's that simple. All dogs require different things, trainers and I mean all trainers should be open to most methods. Some, even on here are not open to all methods, it's their way or no way--it's no different.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Jim and our other Police officer friends, this is from her FB, as I said she is making no bones about her agenda. She wants to ban ecollars and it would follow prongs and porbably anything except a flat collar. 

Why, why PDs would sign up to participate in supporting her agenda is beyond me. Maybe they don't realize? Do our Police K9 handlers really want to be told by the likes of VS how to train their dogs? I suggest you share this within the K9 LE community. IMHO, it's a bad deal, PR to support bans on ecollars. The helicopter bit incident, it's being used to illustrate how using ecollars and prongs isn't working so going all PO *must* be the solution.

Faustian bargain LE friends........

I'll link to the thread as well, it is a public page so should be within the rules of this forum:



> "We firmly disagree with the use of e-collars, even for K9's. My stance on this is based on equal parts understanding modern behavioral science as well as my exposure to the K9 field. It is absolutely possible to train K9s without using shock, stim, or whatever you want to call that aversive. I encourage those who disagree to check out London's Metropolitan Police force, which uses 100% reward-based methods to train their police K9's with great success. *Their handlers are fired if they're found to be using e-collars*. That's not me talking, those are the facts of one the world's largest police forces."


https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaSt...825?comment_id=10154139263658825&notif_t=like


----------



## llombardo

I think the bigger question is how a bigger department like London manages to train without these devices and others can't? If it has been done with success in other countries, then it can be done pretty much everywhere. I'm not sure if she has anything to do with the police dogs in London, but the argument is there that it can be done, so there is no denying it. I'm not a fan of her, but she has the London police department as proof.


----------



## Jax08

Has anyone seen the London police department train? I would like to see what they are doing in training vs what they let the general public see. 

Jim/Blitz/anyone that has trained a K9! - ---- And how do they introduce physical pressure to these dogs? Electric, prongs, sticks are all pressure and stress the dog has to learn to work thru. So a dog that's never seen a negative goes out on the streets and a criminal hits him. Dog has never been introduced to this kind of pressure, has no idea what to do and runs, cowers, etc. Now what? Do you give them a cookie to make it all better?


----------



## WateryTart

llombardo said:


> She is well known for a reason and I'm sure she has helped plenty of dogs. Just because some don't agree with her training methods means nothing. She does her thing and others do their thing. If one doesn't like her methods don't use them, it's that simple. All dogs require different things, trainers and I mean all trainers should be open to most methods. Some, even on here are not open to all methods, it's their way or no way--it's no different.


The problem I've found with that mindset - and it doesn't just apply to training, I've seen it a lot with respect to other topics - is that so much of the time, the people who benefit from that tolerance do not have tolerance for others.

I'm totally fine if you want to train your dog using positive reinforcement only...so long as it actually works and your dog isn't a raging jerk around my dog. That works for you? Fine. Great. My issue is with the agenda that so often comes along with this type of thing. It works for me so therefore it should work for everyone, and you shouldn't be allowed to do X anymore because I don't like X and not doing X worked for my small sample of dogs.

That's when my hackles will go up and I'm like, Nope. Nuh-uh. Not interested in tolerating you anymore.


----------



## LaRen616

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its almost like you were there and know the dog team... VS, just a victim trying to do some harmless journalism. * Pays taxes in the USA too I guess.*


What does this have to do with anything? She lives in Atlanta, GA so she most likely does pay taxes.


----------



## Mrs.P

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *Why, why PDs would sign up to participate in supporting her agenda is beyond me*. Maybe they don't realize? Do our Police K9 handlers really want to be told by the likes of VS how to train their dogs? I suggest you share this within the K9 LE community. IMHO, it's a bad deal, PR to support bans on ecollars. The helicopter bit incident, it's being used to illustrate how using ecollars and prongs isn't working so going all PO *must* be the solution.



Great question!


----------



## Mrs.P

llombardo said:


> I think the bigger question is how a bigger department like London manages to train without these devices and others can't? If it has been done with success in other countries, then it can be done pretty much everywhere. I'm not sure if she has anything to do with the police dogs in London, but the argument is there that it can be done, so there is no denying it. I'm not a fan of her, but she has the London police department as proof.


They are exempt however, you can give a correction with a check chain/fur saver, flat collar, leash, broom stick, shoe ect ect ect Just because you do not have or use a device does not mean you are PO or force-free. Training methodologies much more important


----------



## Jenny720

Gwenhwyfair said:


> OY. You and Jenny.
> 
> They told her to sit in the helicopter. She did. She was sitting in her seat waiting for a helicopter ride when she got bit. What more was she supposed to do while sitting in helicopter preparing to take off??
> 
> Look, I think PDs are making a bad bargain for PR getting involved with her and her series but to blame her for this is allowing a dislike for her and her methods to cloud the two important facts here; 1) it's not her fault when she's seated in a helicopter as she is told 2) the PDs are allowing someone to *use* them to push her PO baloney when they should NOT be.
> 
> If you read her own FB comments about this series is to 'be the voice for the dogs who have no voice'.
> 
> The implication in that comment and others is very clear, Police K9 training methods are cruel.
> 
> So setting aside the fact that she was seated in the helicopter not doing anything wrong really, the fact that the police are ignoring her real mission puts them even deeper into being at fault here.
> 
> Make no mistake, her ultimate goal is to get e collars and prongs and other tools she thinks are 'cruel' banned in the U.S. and these depts. are indirectly going to support that goal. I just wonder if they realize it?
> 
> 
> 
> Muskeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Jenny, exactly my point. VS put herself in a situation that clearly made her uncomfortable and was well beyond her experience.
> 
> It would be like taking a guided trip up Everest . Sure, it is the guide's job to keep their clients safe, but if the client makes an error or fails to follow instructions, well... then you've got an Into Thin Air situation... and who is really to blame?
Click to expand...

Double Oy no triple oy. She was invited on site to do a filming - she wanted to go on a helicopter ride as it is fun so she says. She brought a camera inside as well as being filmed outside. She was invited in a helicopter to watch a demonstration of dogs getting used to helicopters and filming this. She brought her camera inside and for what- as she there to film. A dog was unmuzzled and clearly agitated and upset. and invited into a very small space with a camera in the dogs face. Was she seated she could of been but still focusing on a agitated Un muzzled dog jumping in a tiny loud space(helicopter) - is she at fault - no is there a inheritance risk with this procedure-yes. Should she be aware of the risk- yes!!!As I said before yes it was the handlers responsibility and also whoever orchestrated this scenario, but it does not forfeit the right to use your noggin. As being around these dogs who are in this state of mind you are at risk something may happen. It more then goes with the territory. My entire point was if she is going to broadcast cast the incident to the social media brings many red flags -her agenda are in question which can only be pushed by Pr. She also continued to let out to the media she was drugged on pain killers when visited by the handler in the hospital and doesn't remember. Does it sound like a team player to you??? She also poses a risk to all involved as she really has no experience in this area. Is the police department open for some positive techniques- why not? Does the police know that this trainer who has never trained a police dog -this trainer who is a animal celebrity who tells them how to train their police dog - have an agenda,I would hope so.


----------



## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> good article - read on and you will see that the P dept has previously been called into question about
> 
> "_never mind the fact that the sheriff's office is under a federal investigation for excessive use of force__ and civil liberties violations_.
> 
> *Ms. Stilwell is a foreigner to our shores,* so perhaps she should be forgiven for not being familiar with America's dogs of oppression, and their particularly nasty history in states like Georgia.
> 
> 
> good use ?
> 
> Big can of worms , this one is.


Where there is power there can be abuse of power no doubt about that. I think London stopped hanging people in the late 60's early 70's. It would be a different world everyone were open minded and striving for balance. For those that do they are gems in this world.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Oy and I'll raise you a good grief.

You're conflating two separate issues though.

Her getting bit in the helicopter, which I contend wasn't her fault *and* the irony of the PDs allowing her to train with them to begin with.

I agreed with VSs comments that people shouldn't be happy she was hurt or wish more harm on her. I agree even though I think she's bad news for K9 training and dog training in general. 

I disagree with the Police departments making a really bad bargain to begin with and allowing her to push her clearly stated objectives for the sake of PR.

It's going to back fire and to a certain extent the whole helicopter fiasco should be a warning shot across the bow that any mistakes the LE K9 handlers makes will be used as fodder for her agenda.

I think the only thing we disagree on is whose fault is it she was bit while seated in the helicopter. We will just have to disagree on that one aspect of this overall story.

I hope you read the post *I *made earlier where she states police who use ecollars in London are fired and that I think it's wrong.



Jenny720 said:


> Double Oy no triple oy. She was invited on site to do a filming - she wanted to go on a helicopter ride as it is fun so she says. She brought a camera inside as well as being filmed outside. She was invited in a helicopter to watch a demonstration of dogs getting used to helicopters and filming this. She brought her camera inside and for what- as she there to film. A dog was unmuzzled and clearly agitated and upset. and invited into a very small space with a camera in the dogs face. Was she seated she could of been but still focusing on a agitated Un muzzled dog jumping in a tiny loud space(helicopter) - is she at fault - no is there a inheritance risk with this procedure-yes. Should she be aware of the risk- yes!!!As I said before yes it was the handlers responsibility and also whoever orchestrated this scenario, but it does not forfeit the right to use your noggin. As being around these dogs who are in this state of mind you are at risk something may happen. It more then goes with the territory. My entire point was if she is going to broadcast cast the incident to the social media brings many red flags -her agenda are in question which can only be pushed by Pr. She also continued to let out to the media she was drugged on pain killers when visited by the handler in the hospital and doesn't remember. Does it sound like a team player to you??? She also poses a risk to all involved as she really has no experience in this area. Is the police department open for some positive techniques- why not? Does the police know that this trainer who has never trained a police dog -this trainer who is a animal celebrity who tells them how to train their police dog - have an agenda,I would hope so.


----------



## Jenny720

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oy and I'll raise you a good grief.
> 
> You're conflating two separate issues though.
> 
> Her getting bit in the helicopter, which I contend wasn't her fault *and* the irony of the PDs allowing her to train with them to begin with.
> 
> I agreed with VSs comments that people shouldn't be happy she was hurt or wish more harm on her. I agree even though I think she's bad news for K9 training and dog training in general.
> 
> I disagree with the Police departments making a really bad bargain to begin with and allowing her to push her clearly stated objectives for the sake of PR.
> 
> It's going to back fire and to a certain extent the whole helicopter fiasco should be a warning shot across the bow that any mistakes the LE K9 handlers makes will be used as fodder for her agenda.
> 
> I think the only thing we disagree on is whose fault is it she was bit while seated in the helicopter. We will just have to disagree on that one aspect of this overall story.
> 
> I hope you read the post *I *made earlier where she states police who use ecollars in London are fired and that I think it's wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Double Oy no triple oy. She was invited on site to do a filming - she wanted to go on a helicopter ride as it is fun so she says. She brought a camera inside as well as being filmed outside. She was invited in a helicopter to watch a demonstration of dogs getting used to helicopters and filming this. She brought her camera inside and for what- as she there to film. A dog was unmuzzled and clearly agitated and upset. and invited into a very small space with a camera in the dogs face. Was she seated she could of been but still focusing on a agitated Un muzzled dog jumping in a tiny loud space(helicopter) - is she at fault - no is there a inheritance risk with this procedure-yes. Should she be aware of the risk- yes!!!As I said before yes it was the handlers responsibility and also whoever orchestrated this scenario, but it does not forfeit the right to use your noggin. As being around these dogs who are in this state of mind you are at risk something may happen. It more then goes with the territory. My entire point was if she is going to broadcast cast the incident to the social media brings many red flags -her agenda are in question which can only be pushed by Pr. She also continued to let out to the media she was drugged on pain killers when visited by the handler in the hospital and doesn't remember. Does it sound like a team player to you??? She also poses a risk to all involved as she really has no experience in this area. Is the police department open for some positive techniques- why not? Does the police know that this trainer who has never trained a police dog -this trainer who is a animal celebrity who tells them how to train their police dog - have an agenda,I would hope so.
Click to expand...

I to do not to see vs get hurt or a fan of raving maniacs wishing her harm. Not big on Facebook or social media for one of the reasons as it exposes you to that side of the land. This forum is pretty much as big as it gets for me. 

The helicopter incident -I do believe it was the handlers responsibility. I agree the pd 's has a role for allowing vs to train with them brings along great risks. Here is where-as you said -we disagree on (and is okay to disagree)where I feel yes vs has a role in her injury on the helicopter- and keep thinking I wish it would be a wake up call to her -being she doesn't belong where she is at. But it was what she was looking for to run with. 

Yes the pd made a bad bargain I hope they realize this and if not this helicopter incident is a wake up call. 

I have realized that we have been on the same page from the beginning accept one issue which does not change the bigger picture. And trying look for the read the on London police getting fired for the use of e collars which to me is crazy and just shows how little knowledge is dangerous.


----------



## Slamdunc

selzer said:


> *I am not interested in your new dog, it's a mal -- not my thing. *
> 
> I take offense at the idea that anyone who is not pounding on their dog is using clickers and treats. Why does it have to be one way or the other. My guess is YOU use a lot more treats than I do. After puppy class, I don't use treats at all. I give treats to the dogs for nothing at all, not for training. I do not use clickers, ever. That doesn't mean I can't motivate my dogs.
> 
> People don't seem to get it that there are other ways to train a dog.
> 
> The more experience I have with dogs, the less I have to use corrections at all.


That hurts my feelings, just a little bit.  Boru is certainly a nice dog with tremendous abilities for the job he is being trained to do. The point I was making is that the dog that bit VS was a Belgian Malinois. 

I was respectful in my initial comment to you. I certainly do not pound any of my dogs, especially Boru. He will not tolerate it. Actually, I buy several bags of string cheese and treats and train with treats all week. I have reduced his reactiveness and handler aggression, developed a nice bond and trust. One way was through the use of treats. I doubt this dog had this type of treatment in Holland. I don't use treats very often with Boomer as a toy works far better with him. Boru gets a combination of rewards, including high levels of praise, which he really responds to, treats and a ball on a rope. This method of positive training and reenforcement has gotten me pretty far with him. I'm changing this dog's view on life and is loving it. 

With all that said, I am not doing flyball, agility, rally, tracking or any other AKC type venue. If I was doing those activities, I'd get out the clicker and be 100% positive. That is not what I'm doing and the dogs I own are expected to do a whole lot more demanding things. The balancing act is to keep the dog high in drive, clear headed, happy and ready to search and engage a person when needed. This requires control and absolute control, not perfect focused heeling, but definitely under control. 

I haven't criticized you or your training methods, I have no idea what you do with your dogs. I also haven't criticized your dogs, I know nothing about you or them. I don't like ti criticize peoples dogs, it is similar to calling your kids ugly. I simply wouldn't do it. 

The point of bringing up my new dog was that, not all dogs will respond to positive methods when in drive. Especially, if that drive is to fight, or wanting to engage a person. I realize that the vast majority of people on this forum or any forum have even seen the type of dog that I am describing. Nor, have they ever handled, worked or decoyed for one. These dogs are not pets, absolutely will bite with little provocation and need to be handled very vigilantly and judiciously. You must be hyper vigilant, can never relax and never stop scanning when out with a dog like this. Constantly reading the dog, the environment and the people around you. This is not Lassie and not a dog for most handlers. I would not let this dog in a van or helicopter with out a muzzle at this point in his training. I would have insisted that every dog that was going into a helicopter for the first time be muzzled. If it looks bad on TV that a Police K-9 is in a muzzle that is really to bad. It is a needed piece of safety equipment, just like a leash and collar. A muzzle is necessary equipment for some training revolutions, like going up in a Helicopter. 

It is fairly standard in all Police training to have a safety brief. It is common to let everyone involved know that they can "end ex" or end the scenario or training if something unsafe is noted. This is for Firearms, Defensive tactics, scenario based training and K-9 training. 

Yes, compulsion is used when training dogs especially when so much is at stake. The corrections must be fair, timed properly and effective. Some dogs will not be trained by purely positive methods when in a high drive, agitated state. Police K-9 training is not IPO training, but stress induced training where the dogs are taught to bite a person, not equipment. 

I have also come to a point in my training where corrections are rarely needed, but I am prepared to deliver a correction if needed. This is not pounding a dog, it is simply guaranteeing the proper behavior and enforcing if needed. 

Like I said, if I was doing dock diving, agility, rally or flyball that would be a different thing. Putting a "revved up" patrol dog into a helicopter with out a muzzle, well we know what happened. The behavior should have been seen by several people, including the handler, VS and who ever set up the exercise. The dog should never have been put in the helicopter in that agitated state, that was the issue. The dog properly though it was going to do a vehicle extraction.

Anyone that regularly works with dogs and missed the signals is at fault, and blaming others is not really the appropriate response. Whom ever said "no muzzle" is at fault, who ever agrees to put their dog in with out a muzzle is at fault. Who ever sits in the Helicopter, knowing the dog is revved up and not muzzled also needs to share some of the responsibility. If this was simply a citizen or a child, then I would hold them blameless. But, not a "dog trainer", I would hold them to a higher standard. 

JMO FWIW and I'm finished. 

Boru is a little sad by some of the comments. I'm consoling him, he'll be ok.


----------



## Jenny720

Aww Boru looks like such a sweet and very happy boy.


----------



## Slamdunc

Jenny720 said:


> Aww Boru looks like such a sweet and very happy boy.



Thanks! 

Don't be fooled by that cute face. :laugh:

Actually, he is very sweet and happy with me. We are getting along well.


----------



## Muskeg

SlamDunc- Thank you for your input. I can't say any of this better than you, I have xmal (KNPV-line tervueren), and I think it's really hard to explain in writing, without training and working with a this type of dog. Huge learning curve. 

For me, and this dog, a very serious xmal, it is all about the relationship, he loves toys, he likes treats, but he loves me. I mean that sincerely. There is a depth of relationship there I haven't had with any other dog. You can see him check himself just with my voice... it's pretty incredible. He lights up when he sees me, bounds over for a big bear hug, he'll fall headfirst into my lap to cuddle. Big baby but all business in work. 

I highly doubt VS has a clue when it comes to this type of dog. They've been fine honing these breedings in Holland and other parts of Europe for over a century. From what I've seen of VS, she'd just not get "it". Because I guarantee when it comes to a relationship with a dog that demands respect rather than demeaning it by plastering it with treats, she'd fail 100%. I can't explain it, but when "light dawns on Marblehead" when working with this type of xmal- or GSD, I don't care- it's a type of dog, not the breed- it will change how you work and view dogs forever. 

Blah blah... for those of you interested in how a xmal (PH-1 tervueren here) does with kids in public, check out 3:47 of this PH-1 tervueren - look how close that kid is and how hyped up the dog is, but watch him quickly relax and welcome kid's attention right after being in the hyped up state. I know this is a GSD forum, but this post is about a xmal or mal (irrelevant): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNuOrD1DLVc


----------



## Slamdunc

Muskeg,
You are spot on. Your description about your dog is nearly identical to how I would describe Boru. He is also a PH-1 KNPV titled dog. It is surprising how quickly Boru responds to my voice as well. Unless, in drive then his hearing is not so good. 

I'm going to post a video on a different thread of the drive in this dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I wasnt going to bite but I'm not muzzled..so why not.

Ironically VS is not even a good positive trainer.

There was a show about Police dogs in the UK not too long ago. I can honestly say the level of control and reliability they were willing to show on TV was not to my standard for a pet much less a k9. Nor were their methods purely positive. They did not use prongs or e collars that I could see, and it showed.

I would say 99% of dogs require compulsion to be trained to show what I consider to be reliable obedience. Many lower energy biddable dogs can get by with so/so training but for me get by is just not enough.

At the end of the day whether your in real life or on the sport field (where I am much more positive), compulsion is an essential part of any training system. Practical experience tells us this and behavioral science explains why that is.

This strange concept that if you train without corrections that your somehow a superior trainer is always humorous to me. As I always like to say: "Don't tell me show me". I can show mine lets see yours.

That's when you hear the crickets...or get excuses.


----------



## selzer

Slamdunc, this is actually a GSD site. Yes, there is a large working dog community, and most of them LOVE malinois. 

I really don't care for the working lines, the super high drives, the landshark posts where people are so frustrated with their puppies they are ready to throw in the towel and dump them. But they are are at least GSDs. 

Yeah, I want to see police dogs in action, and posts about them, but I am a lot more interested in German Shepherds in the role. I mean, if someone came on here with posts about their Golden Retriever, lots of people wouldn't be all that excited about it. Put in the Golden Retriever is a leader dog for the blind -- yeah, some people would be sympathetic/interested because it is kool to hear about dogs in that role, but deep down they would rather be hearing about a GSD in that role. And in obedience, a GR or BC? No one is going to be oohing or ahing about it, we want to see GSDs in the ring making people ooh and ah. 

I am just honest about it, that is all. I am not interested in other breeds doing police work. Just like I could care less about a pit bull doing SAR, or Golden Retrievers doing obedience, or Australian Shepherds herding sheep. I don't have animosity toward them. Our town has mal k9. I just am not interested in them. 

Are you really going to allow what a stranger on a German Shepherd site thinks hurt your feelings? (Sorry, but your dog's feelings haven't been hurt, they don't suffer from that particular hang-up so popular in humans. Your dog doesn't give a flying patootie what I think).


I understand what you are saying about having absolute control over a dog that has to have the power, courage, and desire to bring down human beings. I don't train in those venues, so I leave it to the experts. But, it seems like when k9s go badly, are unreliable, the owners generally are as heavy handed, and use all the tools available to get the dogs to do what they want.


----------



## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This strange concept that if you train without corrections that your somehow a superior trainer is always humorous to me. As I always like to say: "Don't tell me show me". I can show mine lets see yours.
> 
> That's when you hear the crickets...or get excuses.


I have noticed that people have a misconception, in not only training, but also working line drives and temperaments. Funny that people that have never owned, or trained, or even experienced a working line are the first to jump in on how to train them or their drives or temperaments.

A friend of mine, who has bred and shown WGSL's for 30 years, has just gotten her first working line. What she think she's seeing is a puppy who is to sweet and soft. What's she's actually seeing is a difference in drives and thresholds. Her pups are bitey and higher prey. The genetics on this pup is lower prey, higher aggression. In a couple weeks, I'll get her for a few days to start some foundation work. Can not wait. Love me biddable, drivey, pups!


----------



## yuriy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> They told her to sit in the helicopter. She did. She was sitting in her seat waiting for a helicopter ride when she got bit. What more was she supposed to do while sitting in helicopter preparing to take off??


One of the links posted above has screenshots from Instagram conversations, including first-hand reports of people who were there. One of these reports specifically states that VS was *NOT* where she was asked to be because she wanted to get a better camera angle. If that is accurate, then at least half the blame is instantly on her.



Slamdunc said:


> A muzzle is necessary equipment for some training revolutions, like going up in a Helicopter.


Makes sense to me. A muzzle would have certainly prevented this spectacle. I heard that some Search and Rescue organizations require dogs to be muzzled when being transported, and that helicopter pilots will refuse to take an unmuzzled dog. 

Unexpected transport, accidents, etc. is why I've conditioned my own dog to be okay with a muzzle. She doesn't need it, but you never know what situation you'll end up in, and if having her muzzled is the only way out, I'd rather it was a painless (no pun intended) process.

I was in Peru this past October - saw lots of K-9 dogs (they use some *big* rotties over there), and they were always muzzled (at least out in public, where I was). Again, makes total sense to have this extra precaution when the dogs are near civilians.


----------



## Slamdunc

Selzer,
You wrote:
*Are you really going to allow what a stranger on a German Shepherd site thinks hurt your feelings? (Sorry, but your dog's feelings haven't been hurt, they don't suffer from that particular hang-up so popular in humans. Your dog doesn't give a flying patootie what I think).


I understand what you are saying about having absolute control over a dog that has to have the power, courage, and desire to bring down human beings. I don't train in those venues, so I leave it to the experts. But, it seems like when k9s go badly, are unreliable, the owners generally are as heavy handed, and use all the tools available to get the dogs to do what they want.*

No, my feelings are not hurt. I was being facetious. A little humor and sarcasm. You can say what ever you like about me and it won't phase me in the least.  Just never say you don't like my dogs, that is what hurts. 

This is not directed at you, Selzer. So don't take it personally nor be offended. 

It seems when any dog goes badly, or is unreliable it is the handler and owner's fault. It generally has little to nothing to do with being heavy handed, usually exactly the opposite. No control, crappy obedience and no boundaries for the dog. There are hundreds of threads on this forum proving my point. Usually, the tools are being used in the completely wrong way. 

Actually, I am very much against heavy handed training and will address it quickly with handlers in my unit. The days of yank and crank are over, IMHO. Dog training has evolved a great deal in the last 25 years or so. We are no longer in the stone age of dog training where dogs have to be forced to do things. Either forced by stimming with an E Collar or yanked with a choke chain. Many dog owners and handlers learn how to give corrections but few learn how to really praise and reward properly. Both are needed, but the praise and rewarded is needed in higher quantities and intensity. Dog handlers, K-9 or civilian, that do not understand how to properly praise and reward and when to praise and reward will always have issues. Their dogs will be unreliable, not wanting to work and waiting for the next correction to come. This is exactly what I want to avoid and do not like seeing. There are many working dogs folks on this forum that will understand exactly what I am saying and can see it immediately as soon as a dog gets out of a car or steps onto a training field. 

That was a general statement not directed at anyone in particular. If your training involves "stimming" a dog to get it to recall or yanking on a dog to make it sit, then it might be someone that you (you as a general statement) know. :smirk:

To be clear these are just my feelings in general and not directed at anyone in particular or posting on this thread. If you take offense to my feeelings on "stimming"dogs to recall them or yanking on a dog to make it sit, well then maybe you are the one it is meant for. :laugh:


----------



## yuriy

Slamdunc said:


> If your training involves "stimming" a dog to get it to recall or yanking on a dog to make it sit, then it might be someone that you (you as a general statement) know. :smirk:


What do you think about the method of applying low-stim/working-level to teach the dog that it has control over the stim (ie. stim will turn off when the command is followed)? And then gradually raising the stim to get speed? 

A local IPO club uses this method with seemingly good results. Makes sense to me, but I'm curious what others think.


----------



## carmspack

yeah to this --

don't worry VS isn't the only one who doesn't get it.

"not get "it". Because I guarantee when it comes to a relationship with a dog that demands respect rather than demeaning it by plastering it with treats, she'd fail 100%. I can't explain it, but when "light dawns on Marblehead" when working with this type of xmal- or GSD, I don't care- it's a type of dog, not the breed- it will change how you work and view dogs forever. "

not all dogs, not all lines avail themselves to this "genetic obedience". 
I look for it , want to perpetuate it in my breeding .

You have to be understanding and flexible enough to use the training incentive that works for the dog.
I don't bribe .


----------



## Slamdunc

yuriy said:


> What do you think about the method of applying low-stim/working-level to teach the dog that it has control over the stim (ie. stim will turn off when the command is followed)? And then gradually raising the stim to get speed?
> 
> A local IPO club uses this method with seemingly good results. Makes sense to me, but I'm curious what others think.


I use an E collar, I use primarily low stim levels. I use it to polish behaviors and will even use low stim for mild corrections in tracking. I don't teach behaviors with low level stim. I know some very successful people that do, and I understand the technique. I do not like to stim a dog to do a behavior, it has not been trained to do and then the stimulation is turned off. Like stimming a dog to make it sit or stimming a dog to recall, then turning off the stim when the dog arrives. It's not my thing and I don't see the need nor do I have the stomach to train that way. That is me though, if it works for some one else, then do what works. 

There are many ways to train a dog and teach behaviors. I do not give any corrections or adverse stimuli to a dog that does not understand how to perform a behavior. I think correcting for a behavior the dog doesn't know, understand or been trained to do is unfair. I teach the behavior first, then I train the behavior then I proof the behavior. Not, saying I'm correct, its' just what works for me and I am comfortable working / training that way.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That has been addressed earlier in this thread. People on the internet who said they were there with blocked out names on screen shots aren't proof. VS has directly disputed that story. 

I suggest people read her face book page, especially including the quoted and linked comment I posted earlier regarding how she supports banning the ecollar, where police officers in London can be fired for using one.

Then consider how she will push this agenda on PDs in the U.S. 

She will gain noteriety and fame as a police dog trainer and it will help her sell DVD , books and make lots of money. All the while disempowering more and more dog owners in the process with her 'rubbish'.




yuriy said:


> One of the links posted above has screenshots from Instagram conversations, including first-hand reports of people who were there. One of these reports specifically states that VS was *NOT* where she was asked to be because she wanted to get a better camera angle. If that is accurate, then at least half the blame is instantly on her.
> 
> 
> 
> <snipped>.


----------



## wolfy dog

Muskeg said:


> I mean that sincerely. There is a depth of relationship there I haven't had with any other dog. You can see him check himself just with my voice... it's pretty incredible. He lights up when he sees me, bounds over for a big bear hug, he'll fall headfirst into my lap to cuddle. Big baby but all business in work.
> 
> I highly doubt VS has a clue when it comes to this type of dog. They've been fine honing these breedings in Holland and other parts of Europe for over a century. From what I've seen of VS, she'd just not get "it". Because I guarantee when it comes to a relationship with a dog that demands respect rather than demeaning it by plastering it with treats, she'd fail 100%. I can't explain it, but when "light dawns on Marblehead" when working with this type of xmal- or GSD, I don't care- it's a type of dog, not the breed- it will change how you work and view dogs forever.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNuOrD1DLVc


Deja is like that. She and the one before her totally changed my dog training philosophy into an open minded approach. The other, treat-only trainers in town do not agree with me. One actually has her brother and doesn't even want to use a prong so now he is dog aggressive and pulls her over and she doesn't speak to me any longer. I tried to bring up the issue but it falls on deaf ears. I have a friend with a BT and same story, lost the friendship after I told her I wasn't going to walk with her any longer as long as her dog is out of control (chases joggers, cars, no recall etc.). And I can easily fix it for her but nope, she won't let me.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Has she ever titled a dog in anything? Obedience, rally, agility? Anything?




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I wasnt going to bite but I'm not muzzled..so why not.
> 
> *Ironically VS is not even a good positive trainer.*
> 
> There was a show about Police dogs in the UK not too long ago. I can honestly say the level of control and reliability they were willing to show on TV was not to my standard for a pet much less a k9. Nor were their methods purely positive. They did not use prongs or e collars that I could see, and it showed.
> 
> I would say 99% of dogs require compulsion to be trained to show what I consider to be reliable obedience. Many lower energy biddable dogs can get by with so/so training but for me get by is just not enough.
> 
> At the end of the day whether your in real life or on the sport field (where I am much more positive), compulsion is an essential part of any training system. Practical experience tells us this and behavioral science explains why that is.
> 
> This strange concept that if you train without corrections that your somehow a superior trainer is always humorous to me. As I always like to say: "Don't tell me show me". I can show mine lets see yours.
> 
> That's when you hear the crickets...or get excuses.


----------



## yuriy

Slamdunc said:


> I use an E collar, I use primarily low stim levels. I use it to polish behaviors and will even use low stim for mild corrections in tracking. I don't teach behaviors with low level stim. I know some very successful people that do, and I understand the technique. I do not like to stim a dog to do a behavior, it has not been trained to do and then the stimulation is turned off. Like stimming a dog to make it sit or stimming a dog to recall, then turning off the stim when the dog arrives. It's not my thing and I don't see the need nor do I have the stomach to train that way. That is me though, if it works for some one else, then do what works.
> 
> There are many ways to train a dog and teach behaviors. I do not give any corrections or adverse stimuli to a dog that does not understand how to perform a behavior. I think correcting for a behavior the dog doesn't know, understand or been trained to do is unfair. I teach the behavior first, then I train the behavior then I proof the behavior. Not, saying I'm correct, its' just what works for me and I am comfortable working / training that way.


Right, we're mostly on the same page there: stim only for known behaviours. Especially when it comes to corrections.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I don't see how using food rewards in training could possibly be demeaning to the dog, no matter how good the "genetic obedience". (Halo doesn't think so either, she'll take all the food you can dish out, thank you very much.  )

I take whatever natural obedience my dog comes with and then reinforce the crap out of it. Halo, as a 10 week old puppy, had fantastic focus and a terrific work ethic. Genetics. She loves treats, she loves balls and tug play, she loves to hear how she's the smartest and best, most amazing dog in the world. I appreciate everything she gives me and how hard she's willing to work for me, and I let her know that in all the ways that are meaningful to her. And now she'd like some string cheese, please.


----------



## LuvShepherds

There are enough people here who own dogs other than GSDs, that I expect we are going to talk about other breeds. There are some of us that think certain lines within the GSD label are completely different breeds. I see more in common with Mals and my puppy than I do with American line dogs. 

I use what works for the task I'm teaching. Treats worked for Sit, Down and similar rote behaviors. They did nothing at all for leashwork, so I worked with a private trainer on using a different method, walking in many different directions with different distractions until my dog started watching me instead of everything else going on. We are still working on it, but he's a lot better and I was able to do that without using any treats or clickers (which never worked for my dog--he will take treats and listen to the click but the minute I removed treats, the clicker was just noise. He is more interested in the sound of his food bowl being picked up than a clicker).

I love Mals. I could never own one, but they are great dogs. My WL dog started out as a shark, now he's awesome. I love that dog to pieces. He's challenging but he's nowhere near what people here say about WL dogs. I bought from a breeder who separates high and medium drive puppies, and got one on the lower end of drive. He has tons of energy, but we can redirect easily when he is focused on something. Just exactly what I wanted for a pet.

I don't have anything else to say about VS. I like some of her methods and have watched her show, but others just do not work. I've tried many of them with my older (rescue) dog. She should get some training in how to read dog signals. I'm still not convinced she knows what she is doing much of the time.


----------



## selzer

Slamdunc said:


> Selzer,
> You wrote:
> *Are you really going to allow what a stranger on a German Shepherd site thinks hurt your feelings? (Sorry, but your dog's feelings haven't been hurt, they don't suffer from that particular hang-up so popular in humans. Your dog doesn't give a flying patootie what I think).
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying about having absolute control over a dog that has to have the power, courage, and desire to bring down human beings. I don't train in those venues, so I leave it to the experts. But, it seems like when k9s go badly, are unreliable, the owners generally are as heavy handed, and use all the tools available to get the dogs to do what they want.*
> 
> No, my feelings are not hurt. I was being facetious. A little humor and sarcasm. You can say what ever you like about me and it won't phase me in the least.  Just never say you don't like my dogs, that is what hurts.
> 
> This is not directed at you, Selzer. So don't take it personally nor be offended.
> *
> It seems when any dog goes badly, or is unreliable it is the handler and owner's fault. It generally has little to nothing to do with being heavy handed, usually exactly the opposite. No control, crappy obedience and no boundaries for the dog. There are hundreds of threads on this forum proving my point. Usually, the tools are being used in the completely wrong way.
> 
> Actually, I am very much against heavy handed training and will address it quickly with handlers in my unit. The days of yank and crank are over, IMHO. Dog training has evolved a great deal in the last 25 years or so. We are no longer in the stone age of dog training where dogs have to be forced to do things. Either forced by stimming with an E Collar or yanked with a choke chain. Many dog owners and handlers learn how to give corrections but few learn how to really praise and reward properly. Both are needed, but the praise and rewarded is needed in higher quantities and intensity. Dog handlers, K-9 or civilian, that do not understand how to properly praise and reward and when to praise and reward will always have issues. Their dogs will be unreliable, not wanting to work and waiting for the next correction to come. This is exactly what I want to avoid and do not like seeing. There are many working dogs folks on this forum that will understand exactly what I am saying and can see it immediately as soon as a dog gets out of a car or steps onto a training field.
> 
> That was a general statement not directed at anyone in particular. If your training involves "stimming" a dog to get it to recall or yanking on a dog to make it sit, then it might be someone that you (you as a general statement) know. :smirk:
> 
> To be clear these are just my feelings in general and not directed at anyone in particular or posting on this thread. If you take offense to my feeelings on "stimming"dogs to recall them or yanking on a dog to make it sit, well then maybe you are the one it is meant for.* :laugh:


Agree 100% with this. 

Unfortunately, you got to read the puppy threads here, closely. People are deathly afraid their 3-4 month old puppies are dominant and aggressive. The puppies are defective -- they 100% believe. 

I am guessing it is just human nature to believe that our dog's problem is terrible. That 99% of the problems could be just handler error, but ours is that 1% or .1% where the dog is seriously defective. 

Dogs will trust consistency. If you yank and crank consistently, your dog will trust you and be trained. But you can also train a dog without yanking and cranking by being consistent, by disciplining yourself. 

We can outwit dogs. We can prove ourselves trustworthy to dogs through consistency, timing, and good management. Knowing when to say, "Yes! Good Girl!" is better than chopped liver. And "Eh! No!" with proper timing, and followed by a re-try is just as effective as a yank with a prong collar. 

You can discipline your dog all day long, but you will have good progress if you can become more disciplined.


----------



## CanineKarma

A reporter that wants to pet and hug the puppy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo


----------



## Jax08

CanineKarma said:


> A reporter that wants to pet and hug the puppy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo


Man...look at those ears and lick lipping prior to that bite.


----------



## Nigel

Yup, plenty of signals from the K9 that it was not ok with the close presence of the reporter, should have been noticed.


----------



## selzer

Yeah that one was years ago. The dog was new to the handler, still a puppy, really, but you could tell that dog was way uncomfortable prior, and then the guy gets up close and personal. Yeah the guy was lucky it wasn't a lot worse.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

LuvShepherds said:


> There are enough people here who own dogs other than GSDs, that I expect we are going to talk about other breeds. *There are some of us that think certain lines within the GSD label are completely different breeds. I see more in common with Mals and my puppy than I do with American line dogs. *
> 
> I love Mals. I could never own one, but they are great dogs. My WL dog started out as a shark, now he's awesome. I love that dog to pieces. He's challenging but he's nowhere near what people here say about WL dogs. I bought from a breeder who separates high and medium drive puppies, and got one on the lower end of drive. He has tons of energy, but we can redirect easily when he is focused on something. Just exactly what I wanted for a pet.
> .


Yup. Ironically Mals and working lines are much closer in nature and behaviour then they are to AKC SLs. XMals often have plenty of GSD in there and are often similar in nature to a good WL.


----------



## LuvShepherds

We love our Mal friends. My puppy plays with a few when we have time and they are incredible dogs. They are similar in temperament to my dog.


----------



## newlie

I am not going to comment really on who is to blame because I just don't know enough about the scenario to say. But I do have two questions, if you will. If we don't accept as gospel truth (which we shouldn't) the accounts of several people who claimed to be there, is there any reason to blindly accept what anybody says? After all, no one has any proof of what actually happened. And that leads to my second question. With all the filming going on, is it really credible that at least part of this incident was not caught on tape?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Weighting the evidence based on credibility and objectivity. 

Clearly I strongly disagree with VS and her agenda to ban ecollars and pinch collars and disempower millions of dog owners.....

But her account of what happened carries more weight then a screen shot of a post of someone who a) may not have been there or b) was too far away to really tell. Remember the helicopter was started, blades spinning so usually spectators are kept back.

For what ever reason the handler of the dog has not made any statements regarding this incident. 

Therefore her accounting is going to carry more weight until an equally credible witness who identifies him/herself steps up.

Having said that I don't really care who's fault it is. The whole incident was bound to happen. It will probably happen again and she is going to blame the use of e collars and "aversives" to push her agenda on the U.S. Police K9 training as she did with the UK and London police.





newlie said:


> I am not going to comment really on who is to blame because I just don't know enough about the scenario to say. But I do have two questions, if you will. If we don't accept as gospel truth (which we shouldn't) the accounts of several people who claimed to be there, is there any reason to blindly accept what anybody says? After all, no one has any proof of what actually happened. And that leads to my second question. With all the filming going on, is it really credible that at least part of this incident was not caught on tape?


----------



## carmspack

this was bugging me because I thought many parts of Europe had already banned the use of e-collars , so without slogging through the last 15 pages of this thread , are people trying to attribute VS's influence in banning the e-collar in Great Britain?

I "thought" Germany had banned the e-collar - looked into it - found this 

"Electric training collars are already banned in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany and in some states in Australia. - See more at:
Electric Shock Collars ? The Kennel Club

a good analytical piece of research weighing pros and cons The use of electronic collars for training domestic dogs: estimated prevalence, reasons and risk factors for use, and owner perceived success as compared to other training methods | BMC Veterinary Research | Full Text

New findings on shock collars: why the UK wants to ban them - Smart Animal Training Systems...

As I see it the equipment isn't so much the problem as the PERSON using it .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Carmen, I'm following the thread on her public FB page. You guys should really look it over. 

She is very open and direct about the fact that her goal with this series is to start the ball rolling on banning e collars and pinch collars.

She makes no bones about it.

She is also very snarky and dismissive to those in the thread who work with and in the LE K9 community who are trying to explain why her theories don't work IRL. I'm disliking her more and more. At first I thought this series was a good thing because I assumed (incorrectly) that she was meeting in the middle and learning too. Nope. She's making it clear on her FB page it's her ideology she is pushing, one way street.

What I find really irritating about her is I don't think she's even put a basic OB title on a dog. Then police depts. are inviting her to film them and tell them how to train, yet they argue with people in bite sports about training and methods, who have at least titled dogs?

The world has truly gone mad I tell you.


----------



## WateryTart

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Carmen, I'm following the thread on her public FB page. You guys should really look it over.
> 
> She is very open and direct about the fact that her goal with this series is to start the ball rolling on banning e collars and pinch collars.
> 
> She makes no bones about it.
> 
> She is also very snarky and dismissive to those in the thread who work with and in the LE K9 community who are trying to explain why her theories don't work IRL. I'm disliking her more and more. At first I thought this series was a good thing because I assumed (incorrectly) that she was meeting in the middle and learning too. Nope. She's making it clear on her FB page it's her ideology she is pushing, one way street.
> 
> What I find really irritating about her is I don't think she's even put a basic OB title on a dog. Then police depts. are inviting her to film them and tell them how to train, yet they argue with people in bite sports about training and methods, who have at least titled dogs?
> 
> The world has truly gone mad I tell you.


This is why I'm totally cool with being intolerant toward people like this. Ridiculous. If I want to put a prong collar on my dog, I should be able to do that, under the guidance of a trainer. I guess I should be glad I'm getting good guidance now so I can train future dogs? My city has very few obedience clubs that aren't positive reinforcement only. It's frustrating.


----------



## Jenny720

No vs is not a balanced trainer she is an extremist positive trainer who likes to bask in much light and who wants to globally ban the use of prong collar and e collars making many statements they are cruel and used by lazy trainers. She is never trained a police dog but instead will use her filming this tv series on police dogs and showcase it as her experience in police dog training.


----------



## LuvShepherds

There needs to be a push back movement now to discredit her before a pinch ban gets any traction here. I tell people who don't like them to try on on their own arm or leg. If used properly, it doesn't hurt at all. It is about as foolish as telling a parent that a time out is cruel. I laughed when someone who obviously had no experience telling me to use a Martingale over a prong. It's the same principle, except a Martingale has no support and doesn't soothe the dog. I have trained multiple German Shepherds using a prong collar. I started them all our on something else because for me the prong was a last resort, and in every case, the training collar was like power steering when they became too difficult using a flat buckle collar. If I couldn't use one, I would not be able to own another GSD.

Now I'm even more suspicious about how this bite happened. I doubt she did it in purpose but she obviously put herself into a dangerous situation for a reason.


----------



## carmspack

some of the training equipment (collars) that are out there are useless JUNK.

dogs walking around with bandanas , or harnesses or stride inhibiting laces - looks real POLITICAL CORRECT , -- but useless JUNK -- that is so far from being correct --


----------



## LuvShepherds

carmspack said:


> some of the training equipment (collars) that are out there are useless JUNK.
> 
> dogs walking around with bandanas , or harnesses or stride inhibiting laces - looks real POLITICAL CORRECT , -- but useless JUNK -- that is so far from being correct --


I've noticed that too. What replaces a prong if they are banned here? Of course, it may not matter if they can also get a large dog ban put into place, too. An elderly friend moved to a senior community that doesn't allow dogs over 20 lbs. I've read a few places that there is a movement here already to ban both large dogs and dangerous dogs from all communities. Ten years ago I wouldn't have thought that possible, but now I don't know. We also have mandatory 4-6 month neutering laws in some areas.


----------



## WateryTart

LuvShepherds said:


> I've noticed that too. What replaces a prong if they are banned here? Of course, it may not matter if they can also get a large dog ban put into place, too. An elderly friend moved to a senior community that doesn't allow dogs over 20 lbs. I've read a few places that there is a movement here already to ban both large dogs and dangerous dogs from all communities. Ten years ago I wouldn't have thought that possible, but now I don't know. We also have mandatory 4-6 month neutering laws in some areas.


People are insane.


----------



## Muskeg

I noticed my "plastering with treats" comment could have come across as meaning I don't use treats, or think treats demean all dogs. Didn't mean it that way, it was applying to trying to use treats when a certain type of dog is "in drive". 

I do use treats to train, especially with pups. My comment was more about trying to use treats to train an all-business dog "in drive". I've had my dog look at me like, "are you kidding? Bacon? Really?" because he couldn't care less about food. He was looking for clarity, guidance, in well timed corrections for the wrong, and natural "high" for the right. 

Working is the reward. 

The work itself, the working with me, the doing of what he was genetically wired to do, that is much more rewarding than food. 

As far as corrections- the dogs in working mode really just take them, process them, and move forward with the right behaviors. No grudges and no dwelling. I'm far from heavy handed, but a correction at the right time, when the dog is in the working mindset can last a lifetime. Stress actually aids in learning for these dogs. 

Of course always work with the dog in front of you. I have one dog, (not GSD or xmal) who I would never correct in the same way I do my xmal. Never. It would break him down and stress him beyond thinking. He's also low drive, no natural aggression, completely different beast. He's no working dog, and I don't treat him like one. I have no issue with treats and absolutely do not see dogs as "one size fits all". 

But I have seen my xmal just kind of gawk at treats working in drive. Treats may not be necessarily "demeaning" but I do think treating a working shepherd like a pet shows a lack of repect for the animal's intelligence, capabilities and drive. 

And from what I've seen, VS is downright frightened of a working K9 and doesn't even understand reward-based training. She doesn't even appear to like dogs in general. I don't understand how or why she's made dogs a career.


----------



## wolfy dog

Muskeg said:


> I noticed my "plastering with treats" comment could have come across as meaning I don't use treats, or think treats demean all dogs. Didn't mean it that way, it was applying to trying to use treats when a certain type of dog is "in drive".
> 
> I do use treats to train, especially with pups. My comment was more about trying to use treats to train an all-business dog "in drive". I've had my dog look at me like, "are you kidding? Bacon? Really?" because he couldn't care less about food. He was looking for clarity, guidance, in well timed corrections for the wrong, and natural "high" for the right.
> 
> Working is the reward.
> 
> The work itself, the working with me, the doing of what he was genetically wired to do, that is much more rewarding than food.
> 
> As far as corrections- the dogs in working mode really just take them, process them, and move forward with the right behaviors. No grudges and no dwelling. I'm far from heavy handed, but a correction at the right time, when the dog is in the working mindset can last a lifetime. Stress actually aids in learning for these dogs.
> 
> Of course always work with the dog in front of you. I have one dog, (not GSD or xmal) who I would never correct in the same way I do my xmal. Never. It would break him down and stress him beyond thinking. He's also low drive, no natural aggression, completely different beast. He's no working dog, and I don't treat him like one. I have no issue with treats and absolutely do not see dogs as "one size fits all".
> 
> But I have seen my xmal just kind of gawk at treats working in drive. Treats may not be necessarily "demeaning" but I do think treating a working shepherd like a pet shows a lack of repect for the animal's intelligence, capabilities and drive.
> 
> And from what I've seen, VS is downright frightened of a working K9 and doesn't even understand reward-based training. She doesn't even appear to like dogs in general. I don't understand how or why she's made dogs a career.


:toasting:


----------



## Mrs.P

carmspack said:


> As I see it the equipment isn't so much the problem as the PERSON using it .


x1000 this! IMO big misconception -- just because a person does not use device X or Y does not mean they are Force-free or Positive-only.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Someone mentioned sharing the screen shots where she talks about firing London police officers who use e.collars and that she wants to ban e.collars.

I suggest we all do the same, share it on forums and FB with bite sport friends, LE friends and so on.

I agree, we need to push back on her agenda.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Positive dog training more effective than abusive methods - tribunedigital-chicagotribune


----------



## LuvShepherds

Flawed study, using a limited sample with owners who did not use the collars correctly. Not only does she have an agenda but it's based on fraudulent conclusions. They did a larger study of 63 dogs, but still not enough to be statistically significant.

https://positively.com/articles/every-dog-owner-should-know-about-this-new-shock-collar-study/

The study:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140908083344.htm

"Following training most owners reported improvements in their dog's problem behaviour"


----------



## LuvShepherds

Going back to 2011 she didn't know what she was doing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVYF9uwDi4M


----------



## LuvShepherds

She was an actor and a dog walker. For her own website.

"In the early 1990s, Stilwell began her career in pet training when she created her own successful dog-walking company and immediately recognized the need for qualified professionals to help her clients with the training process. While pursuing a successful acting career (working in London's West End as well as in numerous films, TV series, commercials and voiceovers), she expanded her focus to dog training by learning from some of Britain's most respected positive-reinforcement dog trainers and behaviorists"


----------



## Nigel

You see the same crap over and over doesn't matter which animal "rights" group/person it is. Distort the truth, outright lie, and if that ain't enough completely fabricate crap to support your case. You only need to look at cases like the Feld entertainment fiasco to see how far some groups will go.


----------



## DutchKarin

Some people might be interested in this perspective. She gives one way of looking at this issue of VS vs. working world. I dunno about her rant that working dogs never bite... that is a bit over the top for me... but see what you think if you are interested.
https://workingshepherds.wordpress....ning-versus-purely-positive-the-great-divide/


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

There are have been very few scientifically balanced studies on e collars. One can be found in the Leerburg website. Very in depth using samples of similar type dogs in three training methodologies. Force free did the worst..surprise.

Anyways if they ever did ban prongs or e collars it wouldn't change how I train my dogs at all.. For the clients we would be back to the good old fashioned choke chain and they would lose the guaranteed reliability off leash. So in the end more difficult for the dogs and people that rely on professionals for their training.

I got an interesting email today. 
"My dog has been through 3 levels of obedience training and I generally use treats to keep him from pulling. But lately he has been barking at other dogs and I am beginning to hate walking him. I don't understand why he barks he loves other dogs."

....3 levels of obedience training, probably 500 plus dollars and 5 months or more of weekly sessions. The dog still requires luring with treats to not pull and still doesn't behave.

What some idiot masquerading as a trainer on facebook told me:
"The future is here. Get with the times!"


----------



## selzer

Since I don't use prongs or e-collars, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I think we don't need more rules, and we have bigger fish to fry. 

From a personal perspective, though, I wouldn't keep a dog I couldn't manage without a prong collar. I don't think anyone should. If you need a prong or an e-collar to manage a dog, than you have no business owning the dog. Ok, people have their troubles through doggie adolescence, but if you don't build a relationship with a dog and can't take a dog safely out into a public place without a correction collar by the time it is 2 years old, then maybe you should look into getting a different kind of dog. I don't have a problem with people using the collars for training, just the idea that they cannot safely manage the dogs without the collars. 

Lastly, there are things that people use in this country that really ought to be banned. For example, leg traps, or those traps that you set in the water, and if a dog puts their nose into the water to drink the thing will snap shut and usually kill your dog. Most people think trapping is barbaric these days, and do not agree with it, even want to see it banned. 

People want to stop people from chaining their dogs outside. 

Some people don't agree with crating dogs/puppies, they find crates cruel. 

People used to use choke chains, and actually choke out dogs, as a method of training -- most people these days wouldn't consider that technique to be humane or good training.

So we use methods that we have had success with, and the idea that someone believes that method to be cruel, outdated, unnecessary, well, we take offence at that because we take it personally. It doesn't mean that they are wrong. We might be wrong. But it is what we know. We know how our dogs respond to the tools, and the idea of it being abusive is preposterous. 

People used to break bottles over the heads of horses to make them manageable. I suppose those people would think it preposterous to suggest that that was cruel. or unnecessary.


----------



## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are have been very few scientifically balanced studies on e collars. One can be found in the Leerburg website. Very in depth using samples of similar type dogs in three training methodologies. Force free did the worst..surprise.
> 
> Anyways if they ever did ban prongs or e collars it wouldn't change how I train my dogs at all.. For the clients we would be back to the good old fashioned choke chain and they would lose the guaranteed reliability off leash. So in the end more difficult for the dogs and people that rely on professionals for their training.
> 
> I got an interesting email today.
> "My dog has been through 3 levels of obedience training and I generally use treats to keep him from pulling. But lately he has been barking at other dogs and I am beginning to hate walking him. I don't understand why he barks he loves other dogs."
> 
> ....3 levels of obedience training, probably 500 plus dollars and 5 months or more of weekly sessions. The dog still requires luring with treats to not pull and still doesn't behave.
> 
> What some idiot masquerading as a trainer on facebook told me:
> "The future is here. Get with the times!"


 Bad training is bad training regardless of the tools used. If someone is still using treats after three sets of dog classes to get compliance to something that ought to be learned, than it is bad training. It would be bad training with a prong or e-collar too. 


And as for Leerburg, well of course. Studies, can be run scientifically, and still be biased. If you do not believe in a training methodology, than the chance that you will be able to train using it is slim to none.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are have been very few scientifically balanced studies on e collars. One can be found in the Leerburg website. Very in depth using samples of similar type dogs in three training methodologies. Force free did the worst..surprise.
> 
> Anyways if they ever did ban prongs or e collars it wouldn't change how I train my dogs at all.. *For the clients we would be back to the good old fashioned choke chain and they would lose the guaranteed reliability off leash.* So in the end more difficult for the dogs and people that rely on professionals for their training.
> 
> I got an interesting email today.
> "My dog has been through 3 levels of obedience training and I generally use treats to keep him from pulling. But lately he has been barking at other dogs and I am beginning to hate walking him. I don't understand why he barks he loves other dogs."
> 
> ....3 levels of obedience training, probably 500 plus dollars and 5 months or more of weekly sessions. The dog still requires luring with treats to not pull and still doesn't behave.
> 
> What some idiot masquerading as a trainer on facebook told me:
> "The future is here. Get with the times!"


You don't find the KMODT reliable off leash?


----------



## carmspack

DutchKarin - don't know your links author either but do like many of her ideas

"love each and every one of them and they were family to me, right up to the moment that they moved on to their new life in law enforcement or the Military. But I also draw a line as far as loving on and treating as family goes when it comes to dogs. A dog is still a dog. It is not one of my children and it does not get the same rights as a human would. I treat it as a dog. I use a dog perspective when dealing with my dogs. I try to keep things as dog logical as possible and I do not let my human thoughts, ideas and feeling interfere with those thoughts, ideas and feelings. A dog, in my eyes, should be treated with respect and in a dog worthy manor. Not expecting from it to understand our human emotions or to adjust to those human emotions and ideas of what a dog should truly be."

and this 

" The training should suit the dog in front of you and you should adjust your training according to what the dog gives you to work with."


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Not in my opinion. That type of training is good when you have no other option especially when paired with suitable +R.
Still its not as reliable good e collar training. With a relatively biddable dog it will work well, but if you got something more independent then the dog will find the cracks in the system. 

Throw chains, long lines are all good but at the end of the day the dog can get wise, then you run into competing motivators and are in trouble. All it takes if for the dog to figure out that he once gets to X distance off leash from the handler and he can do what he wants.

Leerburg did not do the study or sponsor it. It was done in Europe. It is the most comprehensive study on the e collar and other methods of training that I have ever read.

@Selzer, that attitude got the AKC GSL right were it is today. Cant have all that pesky drive, confidence and character... 

Ill pass the word on to the clients, need a prong? Put your dog down. Treats and voice wont work? Dump at the nearest shelter.


----------



## wolfy dog

selzer said:


> From a personal perspective, though, I wouldn't keep a dog I couldn't manage without a prong collar. I don't think anyone should. If you need a prong or an e-collar to manage a dog, than you have no business owning the dog.


\

I used to think like this until I got my first WL GSD. Their drive overrides toys and treats and after puppy hood. I do use OC with pups until they show me they need more than just that. After which you plainly need leadership with these dogs. 
Selzer, have you ever trained a sound, healthy, pure WL GSD male successfully into adulthood with just operant conditioning?


----------



## WateryTart

DutchKarin said:


> Some people might be interested in this perspective. She gives one way of looking at this issue of VS vs. working world. I dunno about her rant that working dogs never bite... that is a bit over the top for me... but see what you think if you are interested.
> https://workingshepherds.wordpress....ning-versus-purely-positive-the-great-divide/


I thought that was a good read, but I'm still confused about how positive reinforcement only training benefits a pet dog. Why should pet dogs settle for that type of training? And I say that not because I believe positive reinforcement only is bad for every individual dog, but because of the "this way is the only way" attitude I've run across among positive only trainers, and I think that does a huge disservice to any individual dog who needs a combined approach.


----------



## dogma13

Excellent post Blitzkrieg


----------



## Rosy831

I haven't posted on this thread but I have a question I can't seem to find the answer to. Does VS own a dog, and if so, what breed?


----------



## Jenny720

Rosy831 said:


> I haven't posted on this thread but I have a question I can't seem to find the answer to. Does VS own a dog, and if so, what breed?


I think a Labrador retriever but I'm not certain on this-


----------



## Rosy831

thanks


----------



## carmspack

WateryTart said:


> I thought that was a good read, but I'm still confused about how positive reinforcement only training benefits a pet dog. Why should pet dogs settle for that type of training? And I say that not because I believe positive reinforcement only is bad for every individual dog, but because of the "this way is the only way" attitude I've run across among positive only trainers, and I think that does a huge disservice to any individual dog who needs a combined approach.


the home-pet tends to have a more permissive , casual living condition - as long as there is no obnoxious behaviour -- crisp 100% reliable obedient response is not critical.

for a working dog experiences with wrong decisions are learning opportunities which proof the relationship , who is in charge .

in that thread https://workingshepherds.wordpress.c...-great-divide/ 
the writer said "Because we know when it comes to working dogs, that training a dog for a task like taking down a bad guy, or to go into a fight and risk its life, over and over, that (purely) positive training simply does not work! "

there can be no leniency . The dog must perform . Now . Dependably . 

there is one line in that link that needs some discussion and that is this point #2 in the positive training list "Ignore the bad"

there is training which is teaching , where the dog has to think and problem solve. The "bad" is may be an indirect path to a wanted end result . 
Search work . You can not correct the dog for not going directly -- You can not do the dog's work for it . See this so many times in training where the handler steps in and either directs the search or goes right to the location to "help" the dog.
That dog needs to work --- by itself - reward at end .
I had one dog that went into a facility for further training to become an assistance dog .
They gave me a 200 page manual and a list of words which to dog had to learn, build a vocabularly.
His duty was to Pick up and Bring -- a book, a broom, a shoe, a can, a bag , a phone etc etc. You don't teach this by tossing the object - this is not retrieval. So I got my lawnchair , spread out two or three objects . Sent the dog to pick up (take and pick up and leave it taught before hand -- sort of the same idea as Utility title scent discrimination ) . I would totally ignore the dog - dead to it -- no response whatsoever . 
He would go through a menu of behaviour (which looked like fooling around and "bad") and when he picked up the right object , then I animated and rewarded - good - pick up bring*******whatever it was , word association made.
The pressure was a social pressure --- using this dogs desire to work with .
More than one way to correct and guide behaviour.

once he had learned it , if there had been a refusal there would have been a collar reminder to stay on task -- pressure on


----------



## Jenny720

WateryTart said:


> DutchKarin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people might be interested in this perspective. She gives one way of looking at this issue of VS vs. working world. I dunno about her rant that working dogs never bite... that is a bit over the top for me... but see what you think if you are interested.
> https://workingshepherds.wordpress....ning-versus-purely-positive-the-great-divide/
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that was a good read, but I'm still confused about how positive reinforcement only training benefits a pet dog. Why should pet dogs settle for that type of training? And I say that not because I believe positive reinforcement only is bad for every individual dog, but because of the "this way is the only way" attitude I've run across among positive only trainers, and I think that does a huge disservice to any individual dog who needs a combined approach.
Click to expand...

Yes i agree that this article seems to be disappointingly so a bit closed minded. It seems as if this are lumping pets into the positive only trainer category.


----------



## cloudpump

When Did Balance Become A Dirty Word - Karma Performance
I think VS, and petco, and petsmart, and every other positive only trainer are idiots. My personal opinion.


----------



## Stonevintage

This thread cracks me up. It's a good one because it demonstrates the microcosm of peoples expectations that this poor darn breed is expected to fulfill. AND they have done well and stretched to the max to please us - but my gosh - they are not a living Disneyland toy for us to play with....

They need room to run. They need love and training. They need praise and correction.

They don't need positive only training - their cut of the cloth is to protect and prevail and they need guidance. They don't need whips and training methods that treat them like their some kind of lion or tiger that needs to be physically punished to stop primitive wild traits from taking over. Not what they are....

For goodness sakes - these are above average intelligent animals. There's just not that many surprises with them if you treat them accordingly. Don't treat them like they are reasoning rational little people and don't treat them like they don't have their own species drives and way to handle things either. There's a balance that works and it's not rocket science. Some owner's need for immediate results and the Disneyland wants bring unreasonable expectations and the trainers breeders that just want the money fuel this. 

We're in this thing together - we didn't pick a Chihuahua - There's an in between here and TV shows are just that - staged and not real life. These people get paid to portray a certain method. It's not real..... I grew up down in TV and Movieland and it's all there for entertainment purposes only. You wouldn't model raising your child after a TV show personality would you? Why this? You meet these people years later and they were in it for a business - they were actors and could not have cared less about what wasn't in the script or written in to a show to boost ratings.


----------



## WateryTart

carmspack said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that was a good read, but I'm still confused about how positive reinforcement only training benefits a pet dog. Why should pet dogs settle for that type of training? And I say that not because I believe positive reinforcement only is bad for every individual dog, but because of the "this way is the only way" attitude I've run across among positive only trainers, and I think that does a huge disservice to any individual dog who needs a combined approach.
> 
> 
> 
> the home-pet tends to have a more permissive , casual living condition - as long as there is no obnoxious behaviour -- crisp 100% reliable obedient response is not critical.
Click to expand...

I'm just going with this because I'm not reading a wall of text - again, why should a pet owner settle for less than crisp 100% reliable obedience? I mean, I guess if they don't care, but some do. 

Anyway, I don't need to debate further, I just thought that was kind of an annoying nod-within-a-critique to the positive only camp. Which camp also annoys me, but I digress.


----------



## SuperG

Stonevintage said:


> For goodness sakes - these are above average intelligent animals.


Yeah..well that's easy for you to say until I find out my " above average intelligent animal" has outwitted me for all too long. I'm guessing there is a support group out there to help me through this event.


SuperG


----------



## Jenny720

I'm just going to jump this ship.


----------



## carmspack

WateryTart said:


> I'm just going with this because I'm not reading a wall of text - again, I mean, I guess if they don't care, but some do.
> 
> Anyway, I don't need to debate further, I just thought that was kind of an annoying nod-within-a-critique to the positive only camp. Which camp also annoys me, but I digress.



"why should a pet owner settle for less than crisp 100% reliable obedience?"

because they do . Because this is reality . 
Because they will say sit , sit , sit , and the dog lies down and they don't correct the dog to go into a "sit".
How many times on this very forum have you read something about a pretty badly behaved pup treating the owner worse than a door mat - but the writer states -- "but the dog knows I am the Alpha" . Really? 
No wimp , no dominator. 

Ever go to an obedience trial. Couple of forum members saw the obedience at the GSDCofC national show -- well - it was pretty sad . 

And I am NOT a member of the positive only camp .


----------



## carmspack

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Stonevintage*  
_
For goodness sakes - these are above average intelligent animals._

Yeah..well that's easy for you to say until I find out my " above average intelligent animal" has outwitted me for all too long. I'm guessing there is a support group out there to help me through this event.


SuperG 

lol - who can outsmart you and rush the door to chase the squirrel.


----------



## Stonevintage

Lol... "crisp 100% obedience" is rarely in the pet owners world. We/They train to what they need and some train to what they can live with/accomodate/compensate for. No "crisp - certainly no 100%.... simply because the pet is an accompaniment to the family - not focus or goal oriented..

....If you put the avid trainers/enthusiasts/sports GSD folks on one end of the spectrum and the people that shouldn't be allowed to own any dog..... pet people fall in between and they are the masses. Just the way it is and who ends up owning most of these dogs.....


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I take it all back, I was wrong. I just watched the Zack George training revolution and realized I have been doing it all wrong. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P53AlqxWf4&list=PLpcJzTfCjEJeBLKO4lKlVgxqCWzZIOFHz


----------



## DobbyDad

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I take it all back, I was wrong. I just watched the Zack George training revolution and realized I have been doing it all wrong.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P53AlqxWf4&list=PLpcJzTfCjEJeBLKO4lKlVgxqCWzZIOFHz


Definitely, he has a lot of views on his YouTube channel so he must be good and we should all blindly follow.


----------



## voodoolamb

DobbyDad said:


> Definitely, he has a lot of views on his YouTube channel so he must be good and we should all blindly follow.


Ok. I have never heard of Zack George before. I don't know his deal. 

I watched the video posted here and I don't get the joke? What is it about his technique (in that video) that is wrong? What he showed in the video isn't all that dissimilar to how I teach loose leash walking. Have I been doing it wrong? 

He got the dog to engage with him, allowed the dog to self correct at the end of the leash a few times, he gave a verbal correction after the dog had started to "get it" and was about to make a mistake and start pulling again...

Is it the cheesy personality, the sales pitch, some sort asinine comment he made? Or the actual training???

If it is the actual training how am I supposed to teach LLW?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

He didnt teach the dog anything. 
When the dog barked and lunged at distractions he was not corrected and thus did not learn not to react. He simply pulled the dog away from the distraction and started playing with him. 
The dog did not discern a correction/punishment from hitting the end of the leash. 

The owners entire problem is the dog has no trouble hitting the end of the leash, repeatedly.

What Zack did was tire the dog (and himself) out to the point where he would no longer pull.

When that dog goes out the door the next day he will pull the same as before. There was no learning, simply a big game to cover up the problem for the sake of the video. There were no consequences to the behaviours the owner disliked. 

Imagine having to do that every walk and run away / avoid every distraction and jump around like a monkey with a tug toy or constantly shove treats in the dogs mouth. Just crazy.

On the flip side, a leash, choke chain or Prong and some treats, a decent trainer and the problem would have been solved in 5 minutes. Dog walking nicely on the left side of the handler, no lunging barking etc. Easy for the handler to reproduce on her own as well.



That is training.


----------



## voodoolamb

I don't think it is fair to say that the problem would have been "solved" in 5 minutes, if a prong or choke was used. Managed - sure. But what happens when you take the prong off? It would take far more then 5 minutes to go from an untrained 7 month old, to using a prong to correct, to graduate back into a flat collar with that same 7 month old walking nicely by your side.

Like I said, what was shown in the video is similar to how I have trained llw. I've used the directional changes, the verbal corrections. I use a tug as well, but as a reward. Working first with low distraction then building up to more 

I don't think I've ever given a physical corrections before the behavior was established and paired with a command. My current dog has needed zero physical corrections thus far for leash behavior.

I have not spent every walk dancing around like a monkey or popping treats in the dog's mouth - that's for sure. obviously my dog has learned something along the way. I could walk him on a shoe lace.

I guess at the end of the day there is more then one way to skin a cat.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

When the prongs or whatever come off the behaviour remains because the dog was TAUGHT what to do and not to do. Usually within a week any kind of reactivity is completely suppressed. I don't waste to much time fooling around with thresholds or any of that other stuff. 

Like I said before different standards of what good training is. 
If that type of stuff was sufficient to teach a dog loose leash heeling then the dog wasnt going to pull anyways. The dog in the video, will not stop pulling and reacting unless the method changes. Ill put good money on that. Ironically this dog is just your average low drive pet GSD.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The problem is not how one individual chooses to train, it's how someone, in this case a bit of a celebrity, is throwing her weight around to dictate to the rest of us how we train. What tools we may use.

I've watched the VS thread and noted how she deletes comments calling our her logical inconsistencies, denigrates those who disagree with her as "silly", including people who are directly involved with police K9s and training.

That's where I draw the line. 

It's bad enough that millions of dog owners are disempowered by her clap trap, but to then try to force millions of others to "skin this cat" her way and her way only goes into the territory of dominance......

Do U.S. Police Departments really want their K9 handlers to be fired for not training the VS way? Should people be fined or appear in court because they used a pinch collar? That's the question here, not how you personally choose to train your dog.




voodoolamb said:


> I don't think it is fair to say that the problem would have been "solved" in 5 minutes, if a prong or choke was used. Managed - sure. But what happens when you take the prong off? It would take far more then 5 minutes to go from an untrained 7 month old, to using a prong to correct, to graduate back into a flat collar with that same 7 month old walking nicely by your side.
> 
> Like I said, what was shown in the video is similar to how I have trained llw. I've used the directional changes, the verbal corrections. I use a tug as well, but as a reward. Working first with low distraction then building up to more
> 
> I don't think I've ever given a physical corrections before the behavior was established and paired with a command. My current dog has needed zero physical corrections thus far for leash behavior.
> 
> I have not spent every walk dancing around like a monkey or popping treats in the dog's mouth - that's for sure. obviously my dog has learned something along the way. I could walk him on a shoe lace.
> 
> I guess at the end of the day there is more then one way to skin a cat.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I deal with average pet owners on a daily basis. 

The problem is they are so far behind the curve on what a good standard of training is, not so much that they have different standards, they just are totally clueless.

People will proudly say, "see my dog can sit". Well yeah, his butt touches the ground for 5 seconds and the dog pops up and is zooming around doing what it wants to do. They honestly and truly think that's a trained dog.

I had a large 70 pound Doberman, 4 years old, jumping on me and clawing me, practically knocking me over. Not aggressive just no manners on him.

Owners stood by smiling and saying "oh we can make him sit". They put him in a sit, he did for a few seconds then started clawing me again. They were so proud. :crazy:

Some days I just can't take it and I said to them "if the behavior you do not want has not been extinguished the dog is not trained".

I get the deer in headlights look, wut?

So that's the problem, you have to pull people up so far out of the hole of ignorance just to get them to a point of understanding that there is more to this training stuff then they can conceive of in the moment.

Then to layer on that yeah, sometimes it's o.k. to use a pinch collar or ecollar, especially after a behavior has been cemented for 4 years.

It's not easy, it's a lot of work to undo the damage of the 'furbaby' movement.




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> When the prongs or whatever come off the behaviour remains because the dog was TAUGHT what to do and not to do. Usually within a week any kind of reactivity is completely suppressed. I don't waste to much time fooling around with thresholds or any of that other stuff.
> 
> *Like I said before different standards of what good training is*.
> If that type of stuff was sufficient to teach a dog loose leash heeling then the dog wasnt going to pull anyways. The dog in the video, will not stop pulling and reacting unless the method changes. Ill put good money on that. Ironically this dog is just your average low drive pet GSD.


----------



## WateryTart

Stonevintage said:


> Lol... "crisp 100% obedience" is rarely in the pet owners world. We/They train to what they need and some train to what they can live with/accomodate/compensate for. No "crisp - certainly no 100%.... simply because the pet is an accompaniment to the family - not focus or goal oriented..
> 
> ....If you put the avid trainers/enthusiasts/sports GSD folks on one end of the spectrum and the people that shouldn't be allowed to own any dog..... pet people fall in between and they are the masses. Just the way it is and who ends up owning most of these dogs.....


This is a good point. I really do forget not everyone cares about that. Call it sample truncation.

And my dog isn't crisp 100%, but it kind of drives me crazy when I can see the lack of polish. (Hopefully that means we will get there with some time and effort.)


----------



## LuvShepherds

The best method of training is one that works for "that dog and that owner." The best trainers have more than one trick in their bag. I have taken three wildly different German Shepherds through the exact same training and each responded differently. One was a fear based rescued aggressive male who had suffered previous neglect. He bit first, asked questions later. Another is a timid rescue who is a problem solver. The third is my new WL puppy. Each dog has reacted differently to the training and I've had to adapt to learn what works best for that dog. A one size fits all approach doesn't work. Nor does a one-collar approach. 

I've found treat training to be the best way to cement a rote response like sit or down. I also found treats are the worst way to deal with a behavior like leash reactivity, so I use something else. Our trainer said he has been brought some of the worst behaved dogs that were titled in Obedience or Conformation but weren't well socialized to dogs or to people.


----------



## selzer

Not everyone needs a dog that will do a 30 minute down stay. They need a dog that will come when called, every time. Or, they do not. They can just keep the dog on lead. 

People do have different levels of expectations for their critters. 

Crisp, sharp obedience is necessary for the obedience competitor, but as witnessed on this forum, the ones that participate in obedience or even rally, are few and far between. Fewer still as the requirements increase for other venues. 

My parents did not have any obedience at all on their dog, but he was well-behaved, fine with the kids, and every day would do a trick or two to get a treat. He would patiently allow my mother who was recovering from cancer, and pretty weak, to put his chain on him so he could have his half hour outside in the morning and be let out later in the day. He barked at visitors, but but would lay off when they told him to. And they believe he was the best dog ever. 

He was fine for them. They were pet owners, and did not need crisp, obedience training on him. He could have been a superstar. Doesn't matter. He had a great life, and they loved the dog, and no one was ever in danger of being eaten. I do not understand the problem with pet owners, so long as their dogs are under control: not biting people, not jumping all over people, not dragging people down the block, able to be handled by a vet or groomer, not compulsively chasing shadows or their tail, not barking and lunging at every dog they see. 

It is unfortunate that a lot of people who frequent this site cannot seem to say this, and not for lack of prong collars. How is VS disempowering these people, who have their prongs and still cannot take their dogs to the vet to get their temperature taken? 

Most of the people aren't using prong collars to get snappy obedience, they are using them to not be dragged down the street into other dogs. And if you have a dozen or more dogs that you can take down any street or to any vet without a prong collar, well, they must just be defective. 

I wonder how shepherds manage to train working dogs without prong collars, and before there was a such thing as e-collars, since it is simply impossible to train a working dog reliably without them by this conversation.


----------



## wolfy dog

selzer said:


> I wonder how shepherds manage to train working dogs without prong collars, and before there was a such thing as e-collars, since it is simply impossible to train a working dog reliably without them by this conversation.


This is just a possibility. In the past the GSDs were more geared for herding while the modern WLs have been bred more on (prey) drive and therefore needing more control than a clicker can give you. 
You just need the tools to fit the dog (if you know what you are doing) and not get hung up on a certain technique.


----------



## carmspack

the tools were a relationship with the dog, 

appreciating the dog as a D O G 

a long apprenticeship period ,

during which time the dog was observed and could be
"washed" 

patience , not rushing the dog along a rigid schedule 
beyond mental or physical ability

selecting the dog for the job - natural genuine skills,
being very clear and decisive in removing a dog from further training if it meant making a silk purse from a sow's ear 

decisive , meaningful corrections - done and over with


----------



## LuvShepherds

Selzer, I had perfectly trained dogs when I was a teenager, all trained by me. I couldn't do that today if I wanted to. There are a lot of reasons. When I was younger, there weren't dogs living in every house on every block in every city. There weren't thousands and thousands of untrained and unresponsive rescues being taken home by people who didn't know how to train or socialize a dog, much less untrain and retrain a problem dog. 

We didn't have ten different kinds of training available or social media where we had to read about how bad our preferred methods are or how terrible we are at raising dogs. We weren't always second guessing our decisions and methods because when I was a teenager, no one cared what we did. It was our dog, and our choice.

Instead, I went to one obedience class, put my shepherd mixes on choke chains, did a few corrections, used patience and a lot of repetition and my dogs learned. Maybe mixes are calmer or easier than purebreds, but my dogs passed every obedience requirement needed. I never had a problem with a vet, because vets had time to work with a dog, unlike my vet I am firing who walks in, grabs the dog without any interaction, and then tells me off when he pulls away from her. 

Today, I would like to take my puppy on walks around my area every single day. I can't unless I want to carry a big stick and worry about every other yard I pass because there are so many untrained dogs in my neighborhood and owners who don't give a **** if their dogs get out and bite someone. I would like to go to the park and walk my dog around by myself but I can't because other owners think every park is a dog park and let their dogs run loose. I would like to take my puppy into the pet store, but the last few times I have, their "trainers" have come up to me uninvited and criticized my techniques with my dog or my choice of collar or anything else I'm doing. Or because every time we go anywhere, we run into little terriers or terrors who bark in my dog's face while their owners laugh. 

It's very difficult to own a well trained and well behaved dog who is welcome because a lot of people make that almost impossible.

Edited to say that wasn't a bad word, it started with a "d"


----------



## selzer

carmspack said:


> the tools were a relationship with the dog,
> 
> appreciating the dog as a D O G
> 
> a long apprenticeship period ,
> 
> during which time the dog was observed and could be
> "washed"
> 
> patience , not rushing the dog along a rigid schedule
> beyond mental or physical ability
> 
> selecting the dog for the job - natural genuine skills,
> being very clear and decisive in removing a dog from further training if it meant making a silk purse from a sow's ear
> 
> decisive , meaningful corrections - done and over with


 And, why is it impossible to do this with dogs, today, because, this is pretty much what I do. I observe the dog, live with the dog, know the dog in and out, and choose to train the dog in the venues that they will excel in, and wash when I feel it is right to do so. I also cater the training to the dog in front of me. I don't expect something to work with dog B because it worked with dog A. I probably won't even go that route with B because B is a totally different dog. Most of the time I am right. Sometimes, I have to reevaluate and adjust. I guess I see it as MY responsibility to get the communication down, to know when to work more on something and when to do more. To take a step backwards, or jump ahead. Because I use corrections seldom, they are that much more effective when I do. 

I am a sloppy trainer. I am ok with sloppy sits, and less than drop dead perfection. If I pass with a 91 or a 189, that's fine. I am really not trying to win high in trial. If we squeeze by with a 70, I feel a little embarrassed. But usually, we do a lot better than that. I could polish some of that stuff up. I had Heidi to **** near perfection, when she injured her tendon, and I retired her. So now, I am happy to just go and have fun, and pick off titles with each dog. That is a fraction of a percentage of life. What I NEED for my dogs to do, they do very well, all the time.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Selzer, your "sloppy" is probably someone else's "perfection." If you are titling all your dogs, you are already that much more accomplished than most owners.


----------



## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, your "sloppy" is probably someone else's "perfection." If you are titling all your dogs, you are already that much more accomplished than most owners.



We are using the same bad word, LOL. 

No, I have about 16 titles on my dogs. But, I am behind now. When I am working, there is no time, when I am not working, there is no money. I am now working, and have neither time nor money -- I did get my deductible met for my heath insurance already this year, though, so once I shell out 5k for those bills, the rest will be covered. Of course, that 5k has to come from somewhere, and my car is a '98 with 230k miles on it, so that will have to be replaced, probably this year.

Excuses, excuses! 

I had all of them titled a few years ago, but now, I am chipping away at the new ones, getting the youngsters done, slowly, for lack of time and money. Working second shift, does put a damper on being able to take more than one dog to training classes each week. But I am signed up for Saturdays again. I hope to make it to the Steel Valley Cluster and the Crown Classic this year. We'll see.


----------



## carmspack

CGC is a title?


----------



## selzer

carmspack said:


> CGC is a title?


Well, it is now. But I don't have any of the CGC titles, just the certificates. (I think that now you can just pay more and get a title). There are also glorified CGCs or advanced CGCs. And I didn't count the TDI or HIC that I have either, not a title. The 16 are CDs, RAs, and RNs.


----------



## Dainerra

carmspack said:


> CGC is a title?


yes, you pay a bit extra and it is listed as a title. There is also the CGC Advanced and the CGC Urban. 

I really enjoyed the Urban test. it was a much more "real world"


----------



## Slamdunc

carmspack said:


> CGC is a title?



For an extra $20 you can get the AKC CGC title added to your dog's pedigree.


----------



## Slamdunc

This thread has evolved into prong and E collars and their merit or even need, it seems. I will say it depends on the dog and the handler. Most dogs are fine on flat nylon collars and bright orange, pumpkin covered leashes. That is all they need and all they will ever need to be well adjusted members of society. 

There are dogs that need a prong, an E collar or even both at times, depending on what task the dog is called upon to perform. My female GSD wears a soft nylon collar and has a nylon leash covered in pumpkins. A halloween gift and nothing that I would buy. I prefer 3/4" leather leashes with brass snaps.

My male dogs wear flat 1" leather agitation collars daily. Boomer may also wear a prong collar, an E collar or sometimes both. It really depends. I raised him from a pup and he was 2 years old before I donated him to my PD. From 1 year on he was never out in public with out a prong collar, except for his "BH." Does that mean I didn't have control, I don't think so. But, when you have a strong dog aggressive and civil dog, a responsible owner takes all measures for control. Does he need an E collar, no not really, does it add a layer of effectiveness in some stressful environments, you bet it does. 

I have nice obedience on Boru, and I can guarantee that dog will never be out in public without an E collar and either a nylon slip, or a prong. Plus his flat, thick leather collar. Is all the jewelry necessary? Yea, it is. If you don't think some dogs need this, you would be wrong. I am not using these tools because I can't handle and train dogs, but some dogs need a little extra reenforcement and I will not be with out a "Plan B." 

IMHO, prong collars are an excellent training tool when used correctly and I have been using them for years.


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## yuriy

An IPO trainer I once met (I did a consultation session with him) showed me his GSD (ex. German Border Patrol dog). Amazing obedience and speed in that animal, but he had an ecollar on because the handler's homeowner insurance required that the dog is never off-leash without it. I had never heard of that before, but perhaps it's a special requirement for "serious" dogs.


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## selzer

My beef with them, is that just like everyone seems to think that their 10 week old puppy is dominant and aggressive, they also think their do needs the extra edge, needs a prong or e-collar. I don't want them banned. I just wish people wouldn't believe that their dog is one that absolutely requires them. I think they are over-used and abused. 

There was this fellow with a lackland terrier, and he had a prong on him and an e-collar on him, and he was dropping treats to him, and probably trying to use a clicker too. I can't remember, too confusing. But, the dog was an aggressive cur that bit my dog. His owner was totally clueless. He had all the gadgets, but he couldn't pay attention to his dog at all. And then he couldn't believe it when his dog connected. He thought he was making progress. I don't think his special collars helped him at all.


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## yuriy

^ Sounds like a would-be carpenter using a hammer to drive screws. 

The right intentions, the wrong application. Common in all aspects of life.


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## selzer

yuriy said:


> ^ Sounds like a would-be carpenter using a hammer to drive screws.
> 
> The right intentions, the wrong application. Common in all aspects of life.


 Maybe.

I think it was more like he was hoping for that magic wand that would make a perfect, compliant, friendly dog out of a nervy, aggressive, untrained wreck of a dog, with a wave of the arm. And, I think he isn't alone. I think there are a lot of people that want a magic wand, and treat these collars as though they are magic wands.


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## yuriy

selzer said:


> Maybe.
> 
> I think it was more like he was hoping for that magic wand that would make a perfect, compliant, friendly dog out of a nervy, aggressive, untrained wreck of a dog, with a wave of the arm. And, I think he isn't alone. I think there are a lot of people that want a magic wand, and treat these collars as though they are magic wands.


There definitely are. Lots of people going on partial, inaccurate information. The thing is, as a new dog owner, it's hard to tell good advice from bad advice, and the people giving the bad advice can often be a "reputable" source (pet dog trainer, pet smart, that guy at the park with a seemingly great-trained dog, etc.). 

It's even harder to identify the root cause of a behaviour (not to mention fix it), and a correction (via ecollar/prong/whatever) really _can_ seem like magic in the short term. It doesn't help that all kinds of junk ecollars are sold at all pet stores with various magical promises on the boxes.


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## LuvShepherds

Again, I think where you live and train dictates the type of collar you use. If I wasn't in situations where my dog might bolt, I would only use the flat buckle collar. But he is now too strong for me if he tried to take off after another dog and I need a way for him to correct himself. Once he is well trained, he won't be lunging and darting around but for now he does and I'm doing the best I can. Unfortunately, in my location, I can be sure whenever I take him out anywhere, even down the block, we will run into at least one other dog. That dog may not be on leash and is very likely untrained. That is just a given.

To get back to the original subject of VS and collars, I just had an exchange with a rescue friend who thinks all prong collars are torture and should be banned. She now uses only a kind and gentle training method--a Halti. I finally gave up trying to explain to her why those are harmful and possibly dangerous. She doesn't get it. She has never trained a German Shepherd. One of my rescues nearly broke its neck on a Gentle Leader before I finally got to the clip and removed it.


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## Nigel

My wife tried using a halti with Zoe years back and she wasn't ok with that at all. It was hard to watch, she went flipping crazy and ended up getting cut on some chain link fence. She took to a prong with no problems.


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## Jenny720

I like to use a prong on and off and the prong and is mainly as a back up for extra control if needed. I like to have it if I want it to use it. It's a herm springer neck-tech martingale collar. I rarely use my other herm springer collar but have it if needed. I think most people who are in it for the long haul want to do right by their pets and care when and how to use the right equipment. There are those who are in a groups all by themselves and you finds those groups of people in all disciplines in life.


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## voodoolamb

I think prongs are way over used and over recommended. The vast majority of dogs I see wearing them, they are not fitted properly. The dog is never taught what it should be doing. You take the prong off and the same problems are there. Dogs get collar smart. It seems to be rare that the pet owners who use prongs ever work their dogs and get to the point where the dog can be managed on a flat collar.

Sure there are some dogs that need to be in prongs for life for safety reasons. I have owned one. But the average Joe shmo and his friendly happy go lucky lab? 

The appeal of positive reinforcement style trainers to me is there arent any short cuts. It's not anything you can do i can do better with them - it is more like anything you can do I can do too - but usually at a slower pace and with baby steps. I think for non dog savvy people that is a good thing. It makes them stop and realize training is a process. Throwing a prong on and seeing the dog stop pulling in one session makes them forget that. That causes frustration when issues arise that don't have a quick fix.

The vast majority of dog owners don't have problem dogs. Just untrained ones. Positive reinforcement works for the majority of "pets" out there. The labs and goldens. The doodles. The yorkies and shmorkies. That is why that style of training is prevalent in the big box pet stores. It works well enough for their typical clientele. 

I get so frustrated hearing both sides of the argument. The insults hurled from each side are disgusting and pathetic. The positive people yelling that prongs, ecollars, choke chains are cruel and the promoters of the tools saying they don't hurt! Try them on yourself. I have tried them on myself. Maybe I am a wimp - but they DO HURT. But I always thought that was the point? If a dog corrects another dog. It uses its teeth. Teeth hurt too. All of the my way is the only way that works BS and anyone who says otherwise are idiot's stuff just makes me want to shut down. I honestly have come to believe that there is not a subset of humans with bigger egos than dog and horse trainers. (Not trying to direct this at anyone here)

There was once a time I dreamed of being a dog trainer. I spent many summers working at a kennel. Mucking up dog poop in 95 degree weather just so I could sit in on sessions and pick the brain of the guys who trained there. I worked in one of the big box stores. I watched hours of training classes and totally avoided doing actual work by chatting with the trainers there. I have gone to many seminars. I've fostered many dogs, a few dozen over the years, to get hands on experience with training different breeds and behavioral problems. Never did go for it and attempt to start my own training business. I guess I am just not thick skinned enough for the criticism and politics involved. Threads like this kind of make me thankful I quit. I'd probably suck at it anyways. 

Just for the record. I don't subscribe to the purely positive mindset. My own ideals are: exhaust positive techniques first then use the mildest physical corrections that will get results if needed. I've used prongs, I've used ecollars. (I won't use choke chains though.) I've also used a heck of a lot of cookies. 

I'm out. I'm going to go play with the dogs.


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## Jenny720

Jenny720 said:


> I like to use a prong on and off and the prong and is mainly as a back up for extra control if needed. I like to have it if I want it to use it. It's a herm springer neck-tech martingale collar. I rarely use my other herm springer collar but have it if needed. I think most people who are in it for the long haul want to do right by their pets and care when and how to use the right equipment. There are those who are in a groups all by themselves and you finds those groups of people in all disciplines in life.


Yeah I'm going to jump back in the water


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## Blitzkrieg1

Same old story. I do everything positive...then when that doesn't work anymore I go to corrections and tools.
I wonder why it never occurs to people to train the dog properly from the start? 

A complete training system has two things. Results and speed. People act like your dog changing behaviour quickly is some sort of a bad thing, that it somehow makes you lazy..lol.

Here is why your dog is showing you fast results. Because he UNDERSTANDS the concept you are trying to get across. I judge the effectiveness of a system by how fast you see results. If they are slow then the dog is not clear. A clear dog is a happy dog is a safe dog. 

Tools exist for a reason. They make it easier to communicate with your dog. Yes sometimes that communication can be stressful. This is also necessary and an important avenue of communication.

At the end of the day, when you are training many dogs for many people you have a choice.

A. 
Sell people promises, maybes, stories, certificates, puppy playtime and the ephermal. No stress all fun no one has to feel bad. 

B.
Sell them reality, honesty and real tangible results. There can be stress, it won't always be the easiest to sell or popular way but that's the price you pay.

I can tell you right now which one is easier to sell and market. It's the one most trainers pick or are indoctrinated into.
It's the one people like Victoria Stillwell sell at the ultimate expense of numerous dogs lives. 
Then have the nerve to lecture those that don't sign on to their lies.


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## Chip18

WateryTart said:


> I'm just going with this because I'm not reading a wall of text - again, *why should a pet owner settle for less than crisp 100% reliable obedience?* I mean, I guess if they don't care, but some do.
> 
> Anyway, I don't need to debate further, I just thought that was kind of an annoying nod-within-a-critique to the positive only camp. Which camp also annoys me, but I digress.


 Just going to say yes "some" of us "Pet People" do care. 

One of the things I tend to say is *"I would not expect a dog trained like that (insert PO) to behave as expected when put under stress and the best preparation for the "unexpected" is a well trained dog ... crap happens!*

My dogs are all taught the meaning of the word "NO" and they understand how to make better choices, I did not have to drop a hammer on then to get that message thru to them. 

Struddell heard the word "NO" so often she must have thought that was her name?? The "consequence" for her was "well I can't do "this" but maybe something else??? Worked out fine off leash in the Desert "NO" stopped her from chasing a Jack Rabbit towards the Hwy South, towards the Mountains North ... go for it! 

If I tell my dogs "Down" "Stay" "NO" or "Recall" ... I expect 100% reliability. With all my puppies they were raised with "NO" and they did not get treats for not acting like a "tool" that was "expected" worked out fine.

With a "Dog" one does not know?? Then yeah a it's going to take a bit more of a consequence to get a "NO" message thru to the dog. How big a hammer, depends on the skill of the owner and the dog involved.

I seriously doubt a "Doggy" trained in a manner that would not hurt said dogs "feelings," would stand calmly behind an owner while said owner was fending of charging dogs?? 

But hey the "PO" only crowd makes lots of noise so I'm sure doing "that" ... is no big to them?? Not really sure how "ignoring" behaviours can get one there but I'm not an "expert."


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Same old story. I do everything positive...then when that doesn't work anymore I go to corrections and tools.
> I wonder why it never occurs to people to train the dog properly from the start?
> 
> A complete training system has two things. Results and speed. People act like your dog changing behaviour quickly is some sort of a bad thing, that it somehow makes you lazy..lol.
> 
> Here is why your dog is showing you fast results. Because he UNDERSTANDS the concept you are trying to get across. I judge the effectiveness of a system by how fast you see results. If they are slow then the dog is not clear. A clear dog is a happy dog is a safe dog.
> 
> Tools exist for a reason. They make it easier to communicate with your dog. Yes sometimes that communication can be stressful. This is also necessary and an important avenue of communication.
> 
> At the end of the day, when you are training many dogs for many people you have a choice.
> 
> A.
> Sell people promises, maybes, stories, certificates, puppy playtime and the ephermal. No stress all fun no one has to feel bad.
> 
> B.
> Sell them reality, honesty and real tangible results. There can be stress, it won't always be the easiest to sell or popular way but that's the price you pay.
> 
> I can tell you right now which one is easier to sell and market. It's the one most trainers pick or are indoctrinated into.
> It's the one people like Victoria Stillwell sell at the ultimate expense of numerous dogs lives.
> Then have the nerve to lecture those that don't sign on to their lies.


It generally takes me less time (certainly less effort) to train dogs without correction collars as it takes others to train them with them. 

Kind of like potty training a kid. If you start when the kid's muscles aren't ready than it is going to take a LONG time and you will probably have a lot of trouble. If you wait until the kid is dry through the night, and then spend a few days getting it down, it is like clockwork. 

People generally put the prong on the dog when the dog is pulling and lunging at other dogs or just pulling them down the street. The problem is not waiting for the dog to be ready for the training, it is waiting for bad habits to already be ingrained in the dog, and then slapping on a Band-Aid and never actually fixing the overall issue.

Unfortunately, people who try the PO approach also wait until there are issues, and people who procrastinate the most tend to become frustrated the quickest. So yes, they give a half-hearted attempt on the PO crap that they don't think will work because their dog is one of those crazy, dominant, high energy, high drive, hard dogs. And just as quickly the bring out the big guns because all GSDs, sooner or later will need them. It is drummed into their heads. They act almost like it is a rite of passage for owning a real GSD.

God, I love my dogs. 

If you let them be puppies, build a relationship with them, keep training short and fun, mark and reward good habits. Have a decent measure of patience and consistency, you can have a dog doing things the way you want, quicker and more reliably than you can with a prong collar.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Videos of training? Always puts things into perspective.


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## cdwoodcox

Some people regardless of the method will never have a trained dog. Laziness, ego, will derail them. When I first got rosko I slapped a flat collar on him and thought I was going to walk him like a boss and he was going to listen cause I was the leader and that's how it was going to be. Well he pulled he didn't pay attention to me was animal reactive. If I had kept that same mindset and just tried to bully him into obedience he would probably be unmanageable now at 10 months old. I seen it wasn't working so I called and made an appointment with a trainer for private lessons. First thing I noticed was how Rosko reacted to her even though he had just met her. She was able to relay to him what she wanted so easily. Halfway through our first lesson she went and got a prong collar. She fit it on him and showed me how to use it. It worked but I was bothered by the fact that he was so much better with her without a prong. So I learned to use it and then I learned through more sessions how to not need it. I used the prong to alleviate my training handicap. Now he is good on flat collar, prong collar, e collar, off collar. But I put in a lot of time and money learning how to teach not just expect. He is by no means perfect and we aren't close to being done. My next dog I suspect will be much easier. But the prong collar did buy me precious peace while learning.


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## cdwoodcox

I can also attest to the benefit of this forum for an open minded person. I have learned a lot off of here. Probably saved me years of learning everything through trial and error


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Videos of training? Always puts things into perspective.


 Maybe, but I can't manage gadgets or treats when I am training. How would I manage a video-recorder if I even had such a thing?


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## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> Maybe, but I can't manage gadgets or treats when I am training. How would I manage a video-recorder if I even had such a thing?


Add another hand. I can't manage all those things either. When we were in the dreadful puppy class that I finally quit, I had to hold a leash, treats and a clicker and then the assistant instructor criticized me for not treating the second after I clicked. I said I could do anything if I had three hands. Funny thing, when I asked them to show me how they managed three objects at once, no one offered to show me.


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## selzer

I drop things. So my dogs know that if the leash suddenly falls to the ground they need to come back and wait for me to pick it up. 

One of those classes that I observed at PetsMart, the trainer was confusing the heck out of the puppy by clicking and treating and shaking a can of pennies almost simultaneously. That was one person I wanted to rip the leash out of her hand and smack.


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## Nigel

selzer said:


> Maybe, but I can't manage gadgets or treats when I am training. How would I manage a video-recorder if I even had such a thing?


You can use a tripod or have someone else record it. Great way to critique yourself as you go through a rally course or whatever training you're doing. Also a nice way to monitor recovery from injury.


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## Blitzkrieg1

selzer said:


> Maybe, but I can't manage gadgets or treats when I am training. How would I manage a video-recorder if I even had such a thing?


Strange..it seems easy enough to set the camera on something or have a buddy hold it for you. Cheap digital camera, even a cell phone video. Not hard. 
Should be easy if the dog/s are under control. Why are your hands full of stuff? At most maybe a leash but that should be redundent.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here's the thread. It's not meant for videos of high level competition OB. Super G shared recently too...plus our resident Pro trainers. 

BTW...I would venture to say that me and Super G and others on this board probably have WAY better OB on our dogs then VS does with her dog....if she even has one. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/551321-inspired-zebu-crank.html


(as an aside, I've only used a fursaver on Stihl thus far.)


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## llombardo

I have 4 dogs that were trained with positive and a flat collar. My most obedient dog was trained with only positive training. That's all they required, it just depends on the dog. I can't even remember the last time they had a treat associated with training. Midnite is the only one that needed a prong at one point, but he came to me completely untrained with no manners at about 8 months old and he self corrected on the prong, no pops necessary. I did one class with Apollo and there were about 7 GSDs in the group, all were 6-9 months old. Apollo was the only dog on a flat collar and the only dog that passed the class. All the rest failed, even with prong collars.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Video video video video


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## Blitzkrieg1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here's the thread. It's not meant for videos of high level competition OB. Super G shared recently too...plus our resident Pro trainers.
> 
> BTW...I would venture to say that me and Super G and others on this board probably have WAY better OB on our dogs then VS does with her dog....if she even has one.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/551321-inspired-zebu-crank.html
> 
> 
> (as an aside, I've only used a fursaver on Stihl thus far.)


I guarantee you do.


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## selzer

I am not going to buy a video recorder or a tripod. My cell phone is the cheapest, simplest model out there. It has a camera. I don't know if it can record, but the memory is always full, and even if it could, trying to download anything from the phone to e-mail is next to impossible -- remember that my house is in a dead zone, so I can't really plug it in and let it go to town. It has an internet function that takes years to accomplish anything. No I am not going to buy another phone so I can record my dogs. It is pretty silly, really, the amount of money we waste on totally unnecessary objects. 

There is a short vid of Mufasa being worked by my sister's girls who have never worked him before, at a show. A friend took it, and it is loaded on my facebook page, but I cannot snag it and bring it here because it belongs to her. I don't think you can access it unless I have friended you. But it is highly likely that that will be the only vid taken of my dogs. It was in the beginning of December, the dog will be 2 this week, kid was 8, almost 9. Moofie was titled that weekend.


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## LuvShepherds

selzer said:


> One of those classes that I observed at PetsMart, the trainer was confusing the heck out of the puppy by clicking and treating and shaking a can of pennies almost simultaneously. That was one person I wanted to rip the leash out of her hand and smack.


That alone is enough to turn me off to PO trainers. 

(just kidding) I would pay for a lesson on how to do that. Really. Not that confusing a dog is good training but managing three things at once--priceless.


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## MadLab

> confusing the heck out of the puppy by clicking and treating and shaking a can of pennies almost simultaneously.





> managing three things at once--priceless.


You have two hands and a mouth, that'd be easy! Now twirling a hoop on one foot and bouncing on the other, would be impressive, while clicking, treating and shaking.



> It is pretty silly, really, the amount of money we waste on totally unnecessary objects.


You can get a little digital camera these days for next to nothing. And a camera to most people is not a waste of money at all. I would say I took over 10000 photos on my canon ixus, and it's still going. That is way worth it. It shoots ok quality vids too. Personally i too use an old school phone cos it lasts over a week on charge. But you won't catch me posting training vids, I'm brilliant but my dogs are crap. lol. All this talk of remote positions, and I don't even have a TV.


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## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He didnt teach the dog anything.
> When the dog barked and lunged at distractions he was not corrected and thus did not learn not to react. He simply pulled the dog away from the distraction and started playing with him.
> The dog did not discern a correction/punishment from hitting the end of the leash.
> 
> The owners entire problem is the dog has no trouble hitting the end of the leash, repeatedly.
> 
> What Zack did was tire the dog (and himself) out to the point where he would no longer pull.
> 
> When that dog goes out the door the next day he will pull the same as before. There was no learning, simply a big game to cover up the problem for the sake of the video. There were no consequences to the behaviours the owner disliked.
> 
> Imagine having to do that every walk and run away / avoid every distraction and jump around like a monkey with a tug toy or constantly shove treats in the dogs mouth. Just crazy.
> 
> On the flip side, a leash, choke chain or Prong and some treats, a decent trainer and the problem would have been solved in 5 minutes. Dog walking nicely on the left side of the handler, no lunging barking etc. Easy for the handler to reproduce on her own as well.
> 
> 
> 
> That is training.


Its not as simple as 5 minutes(you can ask the trainer that attempted this with Midnite and got her arm shredded by him--it was not pretty). Midnite was extremely reactive. In order to actually condition and train him it took a couple months of every day training. He was on a prong, but that was mainly so I could control him and know that I could control him, he self corrected(I might have corrected him once, but I don't even think that happened). I used redirection, the prong, treats--a whole bunch of different things, but focus was key. Correcting him would have made it worse, an ecollar(had a conversation with Lou) was not an option for him either. Sometimes corrections can amp the dog up and one has to use other routes for safety.

I am able to take him everywhere now without issue and it was all done without corrections. but multiple other techniques that would most likely be considered positive by some.


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## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> Its not as simple as 5 minutes(you can ask the trainer that attempted this with Midnite and got her arm shredded by him--it was not pretty). Midnite was extremely reactive. In order to actually condition and train him it took a couple months of every day train
> ing. He was on a prong, but that was mainly so I could control him and know that I could control him, he self corrected(I might have corrected him once, but I don't even think that happened). I used redirection, the prong, treats--a whole bunch of different things, but focus was key. Correcting him would have made it worse, an ecollar(had a conversation with Lou) was not an option for him either. Sometimes corrections can amp the dog up and one has to use other routes for safety.
> 
> I am able to take him everywhere now without issue and it was all done without corrections. but multiple other techniques that would most likely be considered positive by some.


The handler aggression you are describing is very rare and requires a knowledgeable trainer to competently deal with. A competent trainer with the correct tools would have had him behaving inside a few minutes. 

Much more common is dogs that offer protest behaviours like biting the leash, screaming, jumping on the handler and nipping/showing teeth.
This often occurs when the dog is used to making all the choices and suddenly via competent handling and the right tools has all those options removed. All of a sudden he cant bark, pull or do any of the nonsense he likes to do. What then is left?
Temper tantrum. So the doggy throws a tantrum and you have two choices. Reward the behaviour by backing off. Or disregard it and continue. Most inexperienced handlers and trainer back off the second the dog starts with the protest behaviours and make them stronger. This is often where handler aggression comes from and the stories about how prongs or aversives create aggression.

There aren't too many pet dogs out there that have that real social aggression and will come up the leash. In most cases it was fostered and competent firm handling will remove it.

You can use pain stimulus to create aggression and also subsequently remove it through punishment...once again science is your friend..


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## Blitzkrieg1

It's also important in these discussions to differentiate between the norm and the few exceptions to the rule. Very few pet owners have a dog like slams. Obviously you have to be careful and take your time with such a dog. However, this type of dog is rare and it's counter productive and an unnecessary waste of time to train most dogs like you train that dog.
Most of the clients that bring their monster in with stories about how terrible he is and how aggressive he is have created a paper tiger. 

I find this especially true with people that own guardian breeds. Almost as if such a dog has to be that way simply because he is x breed.


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## Slamdunc

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> It's also important in these discussions to differentiate between the norm and the few exceptions to the rule. Very few pet owners have a dog like slams. Obviously you have to be careful and take your time with such a dog. However, this type of dog is rare and it's counter productive and an unnecessary waste of time to train most dogs like you train that dog.
> Most of the clients that bring their monster in with stories about how terrible he is and how aggressive he is have created a paper tiger.
> 
> I find this especially true with people that own guardian breeds. Almost as if such a dog has to be that way simply because he is x breed.


This is very true. Everything is relative to one's own experience with dogs. I meet a lot of people that have "high drive, aggressive, over the top dogs." The dogs that react to a correction and bit their previous trainers. In the owner's mind that is exactly what they have and probably created from a puppy. What I see is a nice, medium drive dog, with little to no control and spoiled. I have met several people from other forums with "extreme dogs" that can't be handled, according to their owners. In reality, the dog has been left to run amuck in the household and is neither high drive nor extreme, IMO. 

As Blitz correctly mentions, the vast majority of these "extreme dogs" are just average dogs with owners that have never seen or experienced a high drive, "hard", aggressive dog. In a few minutes, handled and treated properly the dog responds well. Rarely, does someone really have an "extreme" dog, or a super hard to handle, aggressive dog, according to what I consider "extreme" and hard to handle. To the novice pet owner, the dog at the end of their leash creating havoc in their house is part wolverine and Tasmanian Devil. To me, that same dog just lacks obedience, control and boundaries. Nothing anywhere near extreme, gangster or super hard and aggressive. 

With some truly reactive, handler or leash aggressive dogs, an E Collar can work well. But, the dog must be conditioned to it and the collar must be used intelligently. This is not something that I would recommend to a novice handler or owner, done improperly it could increase aggression and problems. A nylon slip collar is usually the better way to go. 

The really important thing is being able to tell the difference between a truly aggressive, hard dog and the average dog that is out of control because of issues the owner created. Or the rambunctious puppy or adolescent dog that is bored and wound up from lack of activity, not the whirling dervish it is made out to be.


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## dogma13

I have nothing to contribute really but just wanted to say I have really enjoyed the turn this discussion has taken.I suspect many members here are gaining a ton of knowledge by looking at things from different perspectives.


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