# Likely Abusive Trainer believing in Physical Corrections on Puppies *Poll*



## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

*Firstly I would like to clarify that I by no means hurt my dog*. This is a question I’m asking the forum after having a trainer saying very questionable things and *I’m unsure if I should post a review about it.* I wanted to see if this is normal and I just am not part of the crowd that embraces these methods.

Keep in mind My puppy is a child to me and though many people disagree with this perspective Ive seen the best results treating her as such and tackling problems with EMPATHY as she has a “special” situation. My puppy may be different as she was likely separated very young from her mother and doesn’t understand corrections like many dogs do and see them as a direct threat to her life.

Again not every method works for every dog of course but this really was a big red flag for me. Below is a list of methods he has mentioned to us and some things he’s said.

when she bites us, nips, plays too rough or does anything I don’t want to scruff her and lift her a few inches off the ground from her front feet and shake her. if she fights and screams keep her still in the scruff till her eyes calm…..
To stick our finger down her throat and hold her jaw open when she bites to deter her…
Smack her on the nose when she attempts to jump on furniture.
Crate her without a pillow or blankets or anything
Do not spoil her - context my puppy is teething and she doesn’t enjoy nylon bones he recommends nylon bones but my pup prefers things with give like bully sticks but he doesn’t recommend them even if I supervise so she goes for shoes and things and he wants us to correct her and make her enjoy the nylon bones instead of getting her a chew she will actually use) He favors correction rather than adaptation as I should make the dog enjoy what I want her to….
he wanted us to roll up a newspaper and smack her on the butt with it so she can understand the correction.
He says dogs are the stupider animal and should obey us the smarter one…
He says she is incapable of love.
He says she must submit to my will and obey.
He says her fear of me is good.
Tell me if I am overreacting or if he is a danger to my dog. In my mind he endangers her and is on the path to ruin our relationship and bond. Maybe I’m sensitive but this shouldn’t be okay.

Also since meeting the trainer I have solved the puppy biting and issues that popped up after her interaction with him with empathy and understanding and it has resolved itself. After meeting this trainer she showed genuine fear and true aggression in the home. We have since solved it and she is back to her perky self


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I would not see this trainer again. While I don't see my dogs as children to me (but they are family), absolutely, go with your gut. Run!

When I adopted Luc at 4, he had some fear issues. He'd spent three+ years in a (no-kill) shelter so it could hardly be a surprise, in fairness. He was my first dog and I was sorta flying blind, so I looked for a trainer to help. They all said 'Oh GSD! Oh! Aggression!' and refused to work with him even though I was like 'well it's really barking' but whatever. I went to a local club (SchH as it was known then) and they recommend a trainer who trained protection, apparently worked with the police, etc. etc. The trainer I saw at this facility seemed not-terrible until - I had stepped on his foot running one day. When I got home I was worried he was hurt so I tried to put ice on it. He mouthed me. MOUTHED me. Did not bite. I mentioned it to the trainer (who was a woman, this may or may be relevant) and she said he should never lay teeth on me, I needed to go home, recreate the situation, and when he mouthed me - I forget if she said to pin or roll him - I'd had him for a month and a half, I was like 'but we're still building a bond, he's learning to trust me, doing that seems...wrong'. She informed me I was 'being too female' which blew me away. I fired them.

So yeah, go with your gut on this one. This guy sounds...like a very poor trainer, I shall leave it at that.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I wouldn't go to that trainer for a puppy. Plus all that abuse could lead her to hide from you and worse case shut down. Puppy stage should be about bonding & engagement. Do a bit of OB work, but nothing extensive. You can grab the scruff and say sit because that's not hurting the dog unless you start twisting it. She won't yelp if you grab her scruff.

If she's about to nip you can redirect with another object or say "hey" before she does it. A mother would IIRC growl at her pup who's about to nip to correct it. Most likely you won't anticipate the nip coming so it's too late, so just redirect or a loud noise like "owwww". Keep in mind dogs use their mouth to grab stuff. So if you keep saying "oww" or something she may not wanna play with you at times. Some will allow mouth play only at them and will say "oww" if it's a hard bite. That's up to you to decide. Play a game of tug and expect marks/scratches as she ages. 

If you want a good OB puppy then just be consistent. You tell her sit at times and if she doesn't and you shrug it off often she won't listen as good. Mother dogs are pretty consistent.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Please take Sheild K9s puppy course! 

I don't crate with pillows blankets it's not necessary and can be dangerous.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

You don't say how old the pup is, that has a big impact on corrections or not. I would not correct a 8 week old I will correct a 4 month old. 

Your description of you pup leaves me to believe it is soft vs hard, meaning strong corrections will shut your dog down. 

While I might scruff a neck I'm not going to hold the pup in the air and not on a young pup. 

While I might put my thumb on a tongue to discourage mouthing and biting, not on a young pup and not down their throat. 

I would never hit my pup on nose or with a rolled up paper. 

This trainer sounds like they stuck in the 70s and I would not call it balanced.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t think his advice is all abusive but he’s ignorant about dog training and most of his advice is not useful. Like crating a puppy without padding or bedding. My dogs were chewers so it was safer to crate them in a bare crate. When they got older and it was safe, they got nice beds in their crates. Hitting, shaking and scaring a puppy are bad suggestions. You didn’t need a poll to know his advice is mostly all bad.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Apex1 said:


> Please take Sheild K9s puppy course!
> 
> I don't crate with pillows blankets it's not necessary and can be dangerous.


I hope like Rabidwolfie said that you get commission for all your recommendations so I can at least tell them I was recommended by you. You are their #1 marketing strategy


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

drparker151 said:


> You don't say how old the pup is, that has a big impact on corrections or not. I would not correct a 8 week old I will correct a 4 month old.
> 
> Your description of you pup leaves me to believe it is soft vs hard, meaning strong corrections will shut your dog down.
> 
> ...


she is 12 weeks


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

The worst part is he is highly looked upon and has a reputation with all the Schutzhund clubs near me. I have a respect for his dogs and his puppies but he is really harsh in person with her. I think a major component to her reactions is how early she was separated from her mom. we aren’t sure when but she is a very soft girl and being very loud and aggressive causes a lot of fear based aggression in her rather than when we are firm she responds immediately. He taught her OB commands quick but the corrections were a turn off


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

when she bites us, nips, plays too rough or does anything I don’t want to scruff her and lift her a few inches off the ground from her front feet and shake her. if she fights and screams keep her still in the scruff till her eyes calm…..
Nope. Not appropriate. I MAY give a really feisty pup a quick firm shake and a stern NO!

To stick our finger down her throat and hold her jaw open when she bites to deter her…
Nope. Not the way. 

Smack her on the nose when she attempts to jump on furniture.
NEVER smack a dogs nose or face. If I really need a dogs, not puppies, attention I may give a quick tap under the chin or on the head. A tap, not a smack.

Crate her without a pillow or blankets or anything
I do this all the time. 

Do not spoil her - context my puppy is teething and she doesn’t enjoy nylon bones he recommends nylon bones but my pup prefers things with give like bully sticks but he doesn’t recommend them even if I supervise so she goes for shoes and things and he wants us to correct her and make her enjoy the nylon bones instead of getting her a chew she will actually use) He favors correction rather than adaptation as I should make the dog enjoy what I want her to….
Thats just stupid

he wanted us to roll up a newspaper and smack her on the butt with it so she can understand the correction.
Never.

He says dogs are the stupider animal and should obey us the smarter one…
Thats debatable. I'm positive Sabi was smarter then me and on odd days I am pretty sure Shadow is. A dumb dog is smarter then half the people I deal with.

He says she is incapable of love.
Love is a human concept. Dogs are loyal and form strong social attachments.

He says she must submit to my will and obey.
Situational. Dog needs treatment for something it isn't optional, dog doesn't want to shake hands I'm not going to make a thing of it

He says her fear of me is good.
The problem with having your foot on the tigers neck is you can never move your foot.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

HandlingAkira said:


> I hope like Rabidwolfie said that you get commission for all your recommendations so I can at least tell them I was recommended by you. You are their #1 marketing strategy


Their #1 marketing strategy is the fact that the program works. You can continue to run circles here, weed through trainers at the cost of your dog's behavior or do something that will work for you and your dog. Good luck


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

If she's eating blankets & bedding in the crate then remove. Otherwise you can leave it. Some dogs don't mind the padding. Other times the padding gets too hot for them. Unsupervised? That's your choice, but there is a danger risk. You come home and it's been ripped all apart and how much was eaten. I have 2 crates. The one I leave her unattended when at work has no padding or anything. Some will even take the collars off once they are home or if the dog is left unattended. I keep her collar on all the time cause it jingles otherwise I'd trip over her not knowing & the crate is next to me. I may start taking it off when she's home alone as a precaution. Thoughts on that @Apex1 ?


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Disregard as this was meant for a very young puppy.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Apex got hung up by the collar in a crate once so I take collars off in crates. I used to leave collars on. Zephyr devours everything so nothing in the crate that isn't edible. I do use primo pads in crates for cushion. Apex like you said gets super hot unless it snows he is hot super thick coat so he prefers the coolness of the pad.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

And don't try to make a noise when bit other than a sharp loud NO. Any other noise is really just being a squeaky toy and likely reward the bite and amp up the behavior.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I'll be signing up this weekend for the online material lol.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> Their #1 marketing strategy is the fact that the program works. You can continue to run circles here, weed through trainers at the cost of your dog's behavior or do something that will work for you and your dog. Good luck


Agree. I direct people to Shield at any opportunity. Haz is great. He was a huge help to me.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

HandlingAkira said:


> she is 12 weeks


To young for most corrections especially for a soft pup, Stern no and redirect. Show wanted behavior and reward. 

At this young age focus should be on building a bond, having fun, seeing and hearing as many things as possible from a safe distance that does not stress the pup.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Agree. I direct people to Shield at any opportunity. Haz is great. He was a huge help to me.


You can tell he loves dogs and he has a way with them. Feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon his program. My dogs are super thankful I got the help I needed 😄


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Apex1 said:


> Their #1 marketing strategy is the fact that the program works. You can continue to run circles here, weed through trainers at the cost of your dog's behavior or do something that will work for you and your dog. Good luck


I will look into them


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

drparker151 said:


> To young for most corrections especially for a soft pup, Stern no and redirect. Show wanted behavior and reward.
> 
> At this young age focus should be on building a bond, having fun, seeing and hearing as many things as possible from a safe distance that does not stress the pup.


This ^^^^^ We keep telling you this @HandlingAkira but you're making it more complicated than need be.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Is this the guy you called a GSD god the other day?

Personally I would not let someone with that ideology about dog training touch my dog/puppy. I don't let anyone handle my dog/puppy until I have seen how they handle their own or someone else's.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Is this the same trainer that you were singing praises of yesterday?

Sorry. Seems Bramble and I must have been posting at the same time with the same thoughts.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Does anyone have a suggested brand crate. I’m looking for a new crate for her as she grows and am looking into a travel style crate


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Bramble said:


> Is this the guy you called a GSD god the other day?
> 
> Personally I would not let someone with that ideology about dog training touch my dog/puppy. I don't let anyone handle my dog/puppy until I have seen how they handle their own or someone else's.


that’s the guy. at first he seemed really different then we started talking on the phone when I had questions and his colors came out. at first it was mild scruff and it seemed okay as Ive seen many people lightly scruff but then his tone changed as time went on, the more we talk the more abusive he sounds. When he was at our home he was okay and taught her a lot but then when he left and she started biting he had me call him and he changed his tone x10


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Pawsed said:


> Is this the same trainer that you were singing praises of yesterday?
> 
> Sorry. Seems Bramble and I must have been posting at the same time with the same thoughts.


Yes, I responded to Bramble about it if you want to take a look!


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Apex1 said:


> Apex got hung up by the collar in a crate once so I take collars off in crates. I used to leave collars on. Zephyr devours everything so nothing in the crate that isn't edible. I do use primo pads in crates for cushion. Apex like you said gets super hot unless it snows he is hot super thick coat so he prefers the coolness of the pad.


do you have a wire or travel crate?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> that’s the guy. at first he seemed really different then we started talking on the phone when I had questions and his colors came out. at first it was mild scruff and it seemed okay as Ive seen many people lightly scruff but then his tone changed as time went on, the more we talk the more abusive he sounds. When he was at our home he was okay and taught her a lot but then when he left and she started biting he had me call him and he changed his tone x10


We have dozens of good threads on puppy biting. No need to pay someone to deal with that.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> We have dozens of good threads on puppy biting. No need to pay someone to deal with that.


I was avoiding them before mostly from fear of misinformation but after that with the trainer I will take a look now and dive into it


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> This ^^^^^ We keep telling you this @HandlingAkira but you're making it more complicated than need be.


I know a stern no and misdirect might work for some dogs but we’ve tried that. Her redirection wouldn’t last and the second we turned our backs for a moment it was onto the next thing. We’ve since gotten more enticing chews and will be sticking to our schedule a little better hopefully it makes a difference. She may seem soft but she is very stubborn at times so I called the trainer hoping I wasn’t accidentally perpetuating her behavior but its only made us realize to not trust every trainer with an impressive report


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> I was avoiding them before mostly from fear of misinformation but after that with the trainer I will take a look now and dive into it


If you find one you think looks good but aren’t sure about post in that thread and ask.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

No it doesn't last. Rinse and repeat. The puppy needs to be unrewarded and uncomfortable when teeth meet skin so it stops/pauses.Pressing a finger on the tongue, folding the lips in so it bites itself,etc.if a NO! isn't enough.Then give puppy an alternative to bite.It's a two step process. If the pup bites and immediately is rewarded with a toy that teaches the opposite of what you want.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Given that you posted his name on the other thread in which you called him a "training god," having a searchable thread that shows up on Google accusing the same person of being abusive might be something you want to think carefully about -- even if he's not the trainer for you and his methods are too aversive, and too much for this puppy. I don't know him or your puppy, and I'm not in your area to know how he trains, so I have no opinion....I also don't know if something was lost in translation (I've heard people say "trainer says x" and I know the trainer well, and they actually said "not x"). I've known folks who developed a "radioactive" reputation among local dog trainers due to social media activity, and _nobody _would work with them. You don't want to become "that" client.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

How are your leadership skills? Here's a good read. The author is Nicole Silvers.

Leadership is an attitude, a state of mind. Leaders are fair, kind and consistent teachers.


Leaders lead with their posture, their eyes, their voice and most of all with their breathing. Did you know that dogs recognize the one with the slowest heart rate as the leader? That’s the one who will be calmest under pressure. That’s the one they can follow to safety, to food, to rest.

Often, dogs are asked to make decisions that they are incapable of making. This is the reason for most lack of socialization and behavior problems.


Leadership is a grossly misunderstood concept. Leadership is often associated with words like “dominance”, “alpha”, “authority”, “respect”, and “challenge”. Rarely, if ever, is it associated with the word “trust”.

Leadership is a role that requires the earning of trust from followers. Trust cannot be demanded. Force (the tool of the Dominator) creates resistance. Trust can only be given, not taken. Leadership, unlike "dominance", requires followers to CHOOSE to follow. Trust is broken in a heartbeat, but repaired, re-earned, only over a long period of time--not hours, but days, weeks, even months or years. Sometimes, it's irreparably broken.

An individual dog always has the right to choose whether to follow another dog or not. Even the most severe aggression will not force an individual dog to follow a leader it does not willingly choose to follow. It is only the benefit offered by the leader that encourages a follower to follow.

Whether we are referring to corporate management, family structure, or canine management, the basic principles of effective leadership remain the same:

To lead is to set the example. To design structure of activities. To plan. To create expectations. To minimize conflict. To intervene and mediate conflict. To consider the best interests of all parties when creating boundaries or structure. To listen as often as speak. To compromise your own ego, your immediate interests for the benefit of all parties, putting the needs of your followers before your own. A good leader builds willing cooperation.

To “dominate” is to bully. To ignore the needs of your followers when it conflicts with your own personal interests or desires. To repress free will. To have one-directional conversations. The product of domination is conflict, since only one party’s will or desire is considered, but all parties have needs. The “dominator” forces “cooperation” (compliance).

Among households with canine family members, lack of leadership is a common cause for serious problem behaviors. Failing to plan is planning to fail, they say. Responsibility for leadership issues is often shifted to the dog, calling the dog "dominant".

While a dog may have strong leadership tendencies or even capabilities, it is the yielding of follow that creates a leader. When a human or another dog reacts, rather than initiates, that individual is following. Interestingly, this "reaction" is the very hallmark of application of "dominance" techniques-- wait for the dog to screw up, then intervene. Who is leading who?

Waiting for the car to run off the road before steering is obviously a bad idea. But somehow "because dogs aren't like us", this approach is often attempted.

Sadly, I've seen a well-intentioned "positive" approach used in the same way. The dog jumps up, THEN the person asks for a SIT. This is ineffective for so many reasons, now "positive" training has been misidentified as the cause of ineffectiveness.

The key to leadership for your canine pals is developing the ability to read the current situation, anticipate what behaviors come next, identify "crossroad" moments when steering is needed, and a toolbox full of ways to elicit the behavior you want BEFORE an undesirable behavior emerges.

I'm often asked by folks with dogs displaying aggression toward other dogs what to do if the dogs get into a fight, again, reflecting the "follow the dog" backwards approach. Some people are looking to use the fight to "teach their dog a lesson". Others are simply trying to prevent injury to the dogs.

Returning to our model of leadership as steering the car, PREVENTION is the key strategy to address accidents. Maybe there's that 1-in-a-million race car driver out there who can adeptly intervene WHILE the car is crashing--maybe. But if you were that 1-in-a-million dog owner who could effectively intervene while your dog was in a fight...your dog wouldn't be in a fight to begin with!

Once you've "crashed the car", once you've missed the "crossroad moment" where you needed to steer the behavior in the correct direction, once the dog has jumped or barked or lunged -- the dog's learning is out the window. You may be able to use the moment to learn how to handle such a circumstance, but the dog's learning for application to future interactions has ceased.

By learning to lead effectively, you will not see the "crashes"!

Nicole Silvers author


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> Given that you posted his name on the other thread in which you called him a "training god," having a searchable thread that shows up on Google accusing the same person of being abusive might be something you want to think carefully about -- even if he's not the trainer for you and his methods are too aversive, and too much for this puppy. I don't know him or your puppy, and I'm not in your area to know how he trains, so I have no opinion....I also don't know if something was lost in translation (I've heard people say "trainer says x" and I know the trainer well, and they actually said "not x"). I've known folks who developed a "radioactive" reputation among local dog trainers due to social media activity, and _nobody _would work with them. You don't want to become "that" client.


I would like to assure you that I’ve corrected the other post since & that I am anything but exaggerating what this man said. I am the last person to do something like that as I to have seen reputations go down over harmless incidents but this wasn’t one. I merely posted this thread to feel out the water and to see if I was being overly upset over what was told to me. I was also worried that he would be giving this advise to other people who may not have a red flag pop up and truly trust in him and ruin their relationship with their pup as I know I would have if I had blindly followed along. There are a lot of people in this world that will do ANYTHING a trainer says just because they are a trainer and have good online reviews even if they do have methods that many who are informed would disagree with. The dog in the end would be the one subjected to all that happens.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

HandlingAkira said:


> I know a stern no and misdirect might work for some dogs but we’ve tried that. Her redirection wouldn’t last and the second we turned our backs for a moment it was onto the next thing. We’ve since gotten more enticing chews and will be sticking to our schedule a little better hopefully it makes a difference. She may seem soft but she is very stubborn at times so I called the trainer hoping I wasn’t accidentally perpetuating her behavior but its only made us realize to not trust every trainer with an impressive report


Again you have only had this puppy for a short time. Stop jumping around. Nothing works in five minutes. Puppies are a program.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Again you have only had this puppy for a short time. Stop jumping around. Nothing works in five minutes. Puppies are a program.


I understand that but I don’t want to help her build bad habits. Dogs learn from day 1 so if I can guide her in a better direction now her future will be smoother. I understand this is a long term thing but the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

Has anyone recommended Michael Ellis to you yet? He has a lot of good content on puppy raising. I recommend you take a breather, watch some of his videos on YouTube, and don’t stress so much. Your puppy is going to be fine, just let her be a puppy for a little bit.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Something else to consider regarding training. A trainer may recommend something to one owner based on the trainer’s interpretation of the person’s need and ability to carry it out that would not be recommended for someone else. As an example, my trainer gave me specific tasks for my German Shepherd that he would never do for different breeds. I was in a small class with other dogs and I was working on focused heeling. The Shih Tzu owner next to me was told not to even try it with his little dog. His dog was too short to look up at him. They worked on some offleash tricks that I was not interested in.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

brittanyS said:


> Has anyone recommended Michael Ellis to you yet? He has a lot of good content on puppy raising. I recommend you take a breather, watch some of his videos on YouTube, and don’t stress so much. Your puppy is going to be fine, just let her be a puppy for a little bit.


I will look into it


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Since we're recommending youtube dog trainers, AVOID ZACK GEORGE!!!

He looks perfect at first glance, very positive and upbeat, recommends positive only training methods and giving treats and what not, but if you actually try to follow his advice you'll create a monster. He has a few good ideas but other trainers do it better.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> Something else to consider regarding training. A trainer may recommend something to one owner based on the trainer’s interpretation of the person’s need and ability to carry it out that would not be recommended for someone else. As an example, my trainer gave me specific tasks for my German Shepherd that he would never do for different breeds. I was in a small class with other dogs and I was working on focused heeling. The Shih Tzu owner next to me was told not to even try it with his little dog. His dog was too short to look up at him. They worked on some offleash tricks that I was not interested in.


How have you been able to find a trainer that was transparent with you


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Here's what's confusing to me. You said earlier that you want to train the pup to be a service animal _and_ plan to do IGP. And you've conveyed in the threads that you believe that you know a lot about dogs. Have you ever had a chance to watch IGP dogs train?

When a member here who's very experienced in IGP and has raised many WL pups into great dogs suggested some difficulties with that IGP + service animal plan, you seemed to think she didn't know what she was talking about...so she bowed out. After the pup-in-a-shopping-cart, and pup-on-a-too-long-hike, and now pup-with-supposedly-well-known-IGP-trainer-you-don't-like...is there maybe a common thread here?

I don't do IGP, but the folks I know who do never treat their dogs like children, or think of them like children. "My puppy is a child to me" is probably not a phrase you would ever hear from a handler or trainer in that world.

There's a "no nonsense" training culture in that world. They seem to have an imprinting technique and confidence building technique they use for young pups, and then pretty high expectations that come along quickly. Their sport involves fighting a guy with a stick under controlled conditions, so it seems like the dog has to be fearless and confident. It's not a sport for soft dogs. Those people tend to have hard-headed, hellion pups who are brave, little juvenile delinquents, full of schtuff and vinegar -- pop them with a newspaper, those sons-of-guns grab it, shred it, get a few bloody hits in on your hand and then look at you with "devil puppy eyes" ready for round 2 in the game. They're ready to rumble, and they play like they mean it without much softness or sweetness. It's a whole other thing, and with those genetics, they easily become out-of-control monsters in the hands of soft, tentative owners. On the other hand, some softer puppies would be ruined by the same "game."

I've rescued _a lot _of puppies over the years. They're all pretty similar except for the sable WL dog we ended up with after owners couldn't handle him and were afraid of him at 12 weeks. He was HORRIBLE.....but the K9 trainer who evaluated him thought he was fabulous (and he's excelling under _that _trainer's guidance with a committed adopter). By 5 months, this pup would have probably eaten a human clicker trainer for a snack, and pooped out the bones. Without some "come to Jesus" training sessions with a trainer who "got" his genetics, he might have become a dangerous dog instead of a powerful, well-trained bad ass with an owner who gets the responsibility that a dog like this entails. He may _look _kind of like the other pet-line GSD pups, but he wasn't the same kind of animal.

We really have no idea what kind of puppy you have. If she's a soft dog, then clicker training is amazing for their confidence levels, and if it's the right method for the dog, it's very hard to screw it up if you have someone teach you how to do it. Clicker-trained dogs tend to also have really close relationships with their humans. Those clicker-trained dogs can do OB, rally, fly ball, agility, dog dancing, and all sorts of other sports, but you don't tend to see them hanging off a sleeve with a full bite. But clicker training is not right for some other kinds of dogs. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution

However you proceed, the training method has to be matched to the dog, and the *owner's timing and follow-through *is _everything, _with any method.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Michael Ellis is a fantastic trainer and educator. He has an incredible amount of educational material available. I like the way he trains people and dogs. I use a lot of his method in my program.



When it comes to unruly pups, I think the answer is far more simple than most people make it. I take my dog out and play, every morning, afternoon and night. During that time, we learn things. Most of the bad behavior goes away when they are satisfied and learn to control their emotions.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> Michael Ellis is a fantastic trainer and educator. He has an incredible amount of educational material available. I like the way he trains people and dogs. I use a lot of his method in my program.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to unruly pups, I think the answer is far more simple than most people make it. I take my dog out and play, every morning, afternoon and night. During that time, we learn things. Most of the bad behavior goes away when they are satisfied and learn to control their emotions.


Thank you for the simple honesty


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

How would I know or perhaps talk to an experienced GSD trainer if my pup is soft or hard? She so far at almost 6 months hasn't done something for me to say she's hard unless I missed something. She's a WL.

I did let my breeder know it'll be a family pet who gets plenty of exercise so I'm sure by 12 weeks she knew which one was fit for me. I had 4 females to pick from. She recommended a female for me.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

AE316 said:


> How would I know or perhaps talk to an experienced GSD trainer if my pup is soft or hard? She so far at almost 6 months hasn't done something for me to say she's hard unless I missed something. She's a WL.


This is a good question, actually. Especially for a noob like me.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Magwart said:


> Here's what's confusing to me. You said earlier that you want to train the pup to be a service animal _and_ plan to do IGP. And you've conveyed in the threads that you believe that you know a lot about dogs.
> 
> When a member here who's very experienced in IGP and has raised many WL pups into great dogs suggested some difficulties with that IGP + service animal plan, you seemed to think she didn't know what she was talking about...so she bowed out. After the pup-in-a-shopping-cart, and pup-on-a-too-long-hike, and now pup-with-supposedly-well-known-IGP-trainer-you-don't-like...is there maybe a common thread here?
> 
> ...


3 times I have snatched Valor up and helped him understand that his behavior and attitude was inappropriate. Without those particular moments, he would behave differently for sure. He's also had a couple hard prong corrections for being a butthead. This dog with no leadership would be a complete jerk. 

I've also had dogs that I never corrected once other than an easy verbal correction.

I think an experienced handler could manage a protection trained service dog but not a PSD. Valor performs a couple mobility tasks for me, but if I still had aggressive PTSD episodes, we would just feed off each other. I'm super calm when I get triggered now so it's not an issue, but when I had Fama out in public, I would just head for the door if I had an episode or she would handle things as she saw them.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> Here's what's confusing to me. You said earlier that you want to train the pup to be a service animal _and_ plan to do IGP. And you've conveyed in the threads that you believe that you know a lot about dogs. Have you ever watch IGP dogs train?
> 
> When a member here who's very experienced in IGP and has raised many WL pups into great dogs suggested some difficulties with that IGP + service animal plan, you seemed to think she didn't know what she was talking about...so she bowed out. After the pup-in-a-shopping-cart, and pup-on-a-too-long-hike, and now pup-with-supposedly-well-known-IGP-trainer-you-don't-like...is there maybe a common thread here?
> 
> ...


There is a thin line for everything. It's hard to see a situation from behind a computer screen.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Rabidwolfie said:


> This is a good question, actually. Especially for a noob like me.


Likewise excellent questions


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

On bedding, we also didn’t do bedding until very recently because she’s a chewer. I did buy a chew proof crate pad from K9 Ballistics after she was housebroken and I figured she wouldn’t pee on it. She tried to chew and paw at it and it held up. More comfortable for her than the plastic tray but honestly did it more so I wouldn’t have to get woken up by the sound of her moving around and repositioning overnight on that plastic. Now she gets a bed at night time.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> 3 times I have snatched Valor up and helped him understand that his behavior and attitude was inappropriate. Without those particular moments, he would behave differently for sure. He's also had a couple hard prong corrections for being a butthead. This dog with no leadership would be a complete jerk.
> 
> I've also had dogs that I never corrected once other than an easy verbal correction.
> 
> I think an experienced handler could manage a protection trained service dog but not a PSD. Valor performs a couple mobility tasks for me, but if I still had aggressive PTSD episodes, we would just feed off each other. I'm super calm when I get triggered now so it's not an issue, but when I had Fama out in public, I would just head for the door if I had an episode or she would handle things as she saw them.


How have you been able to draw the line between being too hard on them and too soft. I can't tell honestly if she's "hard" or "soft". At times a simple correction will send her snapping for you and her whole demeanor changes. The rest of the time she is soft if everything goes her way. At times a little bit is enough and sometimes a little bit makes her more rialed up and ready to come after your hands. I don't know how to offer her what she needs. I can call a trainer but chances are it will be like the last. I can attempt it myself through video guides but my lack of experience will make it like playing Russian roulette with blanks and bullets mixed in the chamber. I need true guidance from someone who is true and knows. I want to give her what she needs but I don't even know what that is. Let's throw all the asks out the window. All the Schutzhund all the PSD and just talk about making her a stable dog with enough confidence to face the world. Now is a crucial time in her development as im sure you know and I don't want to mess it up


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Here's my take on hard vs soft. If you leash pop a very hard dog with a prong collar, they act like "oh, hey what's up", you leash pop a soft dog and they will shut down, be fearful and submissive. 




> "At times a simple correction will send her snapping for you and her whole demeanor changes."


Comming up the leash is something different. Does the dog truly understands what the correction was for? Is the correction and level of the correction fair and consistent?


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

HandlingAkira said:


> Does anyone have a suggested brand crate. I’m looking for a new crate for her as she grows and am looking into a travel style crate


Ruffland works well for us in the car. Gunner looks more rugged but doesn't fit in my backseat.


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

about bedding, my dog isn't a chewer but his wet mutt crate pad should be good for chewers


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> Here's my take on hard vs soft. If you leash pop a very hard dog with a prong collar, they act like "oh, hey what's up", you leash pop a soft dog and they will shut down, be fearful and submissive.
> 
> 
> 
> Comming up the leash is something different. Does the dog truly understands what the correction was for? Is the correction and level of the correction fair and consistent?


My dog's never affected by hard corrections. He's a "hard" dog in that he doesn't care much about corrections other than making connections with actions. I still don't understand why he lacks confidence (feels the need to posture and react to dogs) but is "hard" at the same time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> How have you been able to draw the line between being too hard on them and too soft. I can't tell honestly if she's "hard" or "soft". At times a simple correction will send her snapping for you and her whole demeanor changes. The rest of the time she is soft if everything goes her way. At times a little bit is enough and sometimes a little bit makes her more rialed up and ready to come after your hands. I don't know how to offer her what she needs. I can call a trainer but chances are it will be like the last. I can attempt it myself through video guides but my lack of experience will make it like playing Russian roulette with blanks and bullets mixed in the chamber. I need true guidance from someone who is true and knows. I want to give her what she needs but I don't even know what that is. Let's throw all the asks out the window. All the Schutzhund all the PSD and just talk about making her a stable dog with enough confidence to face the world. Now is a crucial time in her development as im sure you know and I don't want to mess it up


The truth is that I made a lot of mistakes with a lot of dogs. Sometimes too tough. Sometimes not tough enough. Luckily, dogs are resilient. I don't know how to put into words, in a way you would understand, how to read a dog and make those decisions. It takes experience. I was a successful pet trainer before I got into the working dog world where I discovered how little I really knew about dogs. 

I learned a lot from some great trainers in person and through videos and books. I attended a lot of seminars and watched great trainers handle dogs and then put that knowledge into practice.

I'm sorry that I can't make everyone an intuitive trainer and handler through words. You just have to train some dogs and educate yourself.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

there’s hard, there’s soft, there’s hard-soft and a whole “somewhere in middle” that most dogs fall into. another reason that it’s not so simple to identify/define by words or one written example, is you have to take into account unfair corrections… i read a lot of scenarios and dog reactions that i’d put in that category.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

drparker151 said:


> Here's my take on hard vs soft. If you leash pop a very hard dog with a prong collar, they act like "oh, hey what's up", you leash pop a soft dog and they will shut down, be fearful and submissive.
> 
> 
> 
> Comming up the leash is something different. Does the dog truly understands what the correction was for? Is the correction and level of the correction fair and consistent?


The corrections weren’t through the leash but like the scruff he wanted us to do, We did it a couple times consistent with biting us but with no shaking or anything and she turned to bite us and growled - we since stopped as we noticed it woke something up in her and we realized how off his methods were. she doesn’t submit or shut down but challenges your corrections and it pisses her off. We figured it was how harsh his corrections are as now I just tap lightly along her muzzle with my finger from my other hand when she bites me and she responds very well to that and you can see the light turn on and her go oh. okay.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Fodder said:


> there’s hard, there’s soft, there’s hard-soft and a whole “somewhere in middle” that most dogs fall into. another reason that it’s not so simple to identify/define by words or one written example, is you have to take into account unfair corrections… i read a lot of scenarios and dog reactions that i’d put in that category.


she’s soft if you are soft and she toughens up quick when you are harsh with her. it’s a strange thing where she responds to light taps but the scruff puts her in a fight mode and she becomes defensive of everything. We were able to get her to be okay again just through taking away her chew toy and having her chew it as we held it and taking it away and then giving it back all within a couple of seconds and repeating and walking away with her holding her chew toys and us approaching and removing them without her growling after she calmed down. it’s almost like we change in her eyes when act harshly to her


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

cocobarksalot said:


> about bedding, my dog isn't a chewer but his wet mutt crate pad should be good for chewers


Kira leaves her bedding alone and selectively chews so we are waiting till we upgrade her to her big girl crate than will look into one for her. I feel bad as she looks pretty uncomfy without the mat and she’s never bothered chewing it so we’ve been a little more loose in that department


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

HandlingAkira said:


> Crate her without a pillow or blankets or anything


This is NOT a good trainer. Find someone else. Their methods are too harsh.

As for bedding, Star could not have any bedding in her crate because she would EAT it. She would even eat things that happened to be dangling close enough to the crate to grab!  It's better to sleep in a bare crate than have to be rushed to the vet with a bowel obstruction!

It took her quite a few years to outgrow the habit. It wasn't just a puppy thing.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I think mines soft or somewhere in the middle for now. She yelped a few times on her own in the prong collar. And stops moving will just bark at another dog. This could possibly change if she's really wanting to go. I can walk her with 2 fingers on leash with a prong. I guess if she could handle it she'd shrug it off and be like got anything else? 

I have wrestled with her. I'll see what my GSD trainer thinks this weekend. She acts submissive around me at times. If I say in a stern voice bed at work cause she's getting too wild with another dog she'll go to her bed with ears down. I toned down the stern voice cause she listens well at work. I won't say it in a really soft voice. Sometimes I baby talk her or just stick with a normal voice. At times up beat. We know she's skiddish. Needs some confidence. From the back of my SUV when I pop it open she usually has her ears down. Licks my face. And puts her paws on my shoulders. Only twice on her own has she jumped out. I've tried 3 or 4 times to encourage her (which I probably shouldn't I guess for her development) and she won't. 

Her thin bed pad she seems fine in the crate when I'm around. I got rid of the blankets she didn't care much for. I have left her alone in the crate with the padding in the past. Few times she moved it so half the crate was bare. So I stopped with it. And why take that chance in case one day she does chew it. Never know. I remove her collar now too like Apex suggested as a precaution when I'm not around. If she starts moving the padding out in the summer when I'm around then I'll try using it for the winter. It's more so for her comfort she seems to be fine with it.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

HandlingAkira said:


> The corrections weren’t through the leash but like the scruff he wanted us to do, We did it a couple times consistent with biting us but with no shaking or anything and she turned to bite us and growled - we since stopped as we noticed it woke something up in her and we realized how off his methods were. she doesn’t submit or shut down but challenges your corrections and it pisses her off. We figured it was how harsh his corrections are as now I just tap lightly along her muzzle with my finger from my other hand when she bites me and she responds very well to that and you can see the light turn on and her go oh. okay.


So in her mind the the correction (scruff /lift) were unfair and she was telling you that in the only way she could. Now that the correction is fair and consistent she is responding well. 

Congrats, you're learning your dog and learning to communicate. That's a big success you should be happy about.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> How have you been able to find a trainer that was transparent with you


Yes but it took a long time, with three different dogs. I used about 6-7 trainers before I found one I understood and liked who knew WL GSDs. Once I decided I could only use someone with years of German Shepherd handling experience, it all happened at once. Someone I knew who never used him recommended him. He met with us for a free consultation to explain his methods and costs. He is an ex military K9 handler. It’s funny, he knew exactly how to train my dog but when he went into a career as a trainer of other breeds, he needed lessons himself on how to train small dogs. Some of the techniques are the same, but the fine tuning is different. We took both private and group classes. When we worked outdoors, my dog was constantly on the alert, scanning the environment and I had to be aware of who and what was around us 360 degrees, all the time. Mine noticed someone moving slightly 500 yds away. The other dogs in the class were oblivious. A good trainer can teach them all. He often gave me different things to work on than the other owners were given. A little fluff ball that doesn’t move or show any drive or motivation when on or off leash unless the owner does something to get the dog moving is very different from a high drive working dog that will create his own mischief if not kept busy.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I've had two good trainers, both wanted me to come observe a class and after both wanted to me to bring the pup by for an evaluation before the first class.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I have to agree with @Fodder that there is a middle ground between hard and soft too.

Teagan was hard - I'm not saying I'm the smartest dog person, or the most experienced person with a prong, but I had learned how to use it and while it was a useful tool it didn't phase her like it did Luc, she was like 'oh, what...yeah, okay, yeah' (Luc wasn't SOFT SOFT, but definitely at that end of the spectrum. I walked them both in prongs at the same time and once I wasn't paying attention, he self-corrected and shrieked and I was like 'okay, well, perhaps not the prong for you'). 

They were very, very different dogs in terms of personalities and reactions. When I adopted Luc - oh okay, you asked, sure, I can do that for you. Teagan - I thought, geez, she doesn't know a single command. After a...week? Two weeks? Can't remember. I said 'sit' to her and she looked at me, cocked her head, and sat. From then on, she followed a wide variety of commands she apparently always knew but had just been deciding whether I was worthy of being listened to. Luc was nervous of dogs when I got him, I was with Teagan at the edge of a park once, there was an off-leash dog approaching on the sidewalk with its owner trailing. Teagan stared at the dog, and the dog crossed the road (the owner ran after it).

Neb is in the middle, Xerxes is at the soft end of the spectrum (though we think based on his reactions to feet and hiking poles it's possible he had earlier life experiences that have led him to be a bit more...nervous...of human reactions. However, I think a harder dog wouldn't have taken on the behaviours he has (we think) as a result). Agis is a bit of a butthead, but I'd say middle with his hard moments. He is generally very handler responsive, so it's not been a huge problem either way. He had some confidence issues as a very young puppy but grew into himself and is a pretty confident guy these days.

Which is to say - Akira is still young, and even if she had a rough start to life - Agis did, and Neb was separated from his mom at 6 weeks - doesn't mean she's destined to have issues when she's older.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

cocobarksalot said:


> Ruffland works well for us in the car. Gunner looks more rugged but doesn't fit in my backseat.


I would love to get a Gunner but they are so expensive, I can see why considering how well built they are but I will need to genuinely save up for a nearly 900 dollar kennel.


LuvShepherds said:


> Yes but it took a long time, with three different dogs. I used about 6-7 trainers before I found one I understood and liked who knew WL GSDs. Once I decided I could only use someone with years of German Shepherd handling experience, it all happened at once. Someone I knew who never used him recommended him. He met with us for a free consultation to explain his methods and costs. He is an ex military K9 handler. It’s funny, he knew exactly how to train my dog but when he went into a career as a trainer of other breeds, he needed lessons himself on how to train small dogs. Some of the techniques are the same, but the fine tuning is different. We took both private and group classes. When we worked outdoors, my dog was constantly on the alert, scanning the environment and I had to be aware of who and what was around us 360 degrees, all the time. Mine noticed someone moving slightly 500 yds away. The other dogs in the class were oblivious. A good trainer can teach them all. He often gave me different things to work on than the other owners were given. A little fluff ball that doesn’t move or show any drive or motivation when on or off leash unless the owner does something to get the dog moving is very different from a high drive working dog that will create his own mischief if not kept busy.





jarn said:


> I have to agree with @Fodder that there is a middle ground between hard and soft too.
> 
> Teagan was hard - I'm not saying I'm the smartest dog person, or the most experienced person with a prong, but I had learned how to use it and while it was a useful tool it didn't phase her like it did Luc, she was like 'oh, what...yeah, okay, yeah' (Luc wasn't SOFT SOFT, but definitely at that end of the spectrum. I walked them both in prongs at the same time and once I wasn't paying attention, he self-corrected and shrieked and I was like 'okay, well, perhaps not the prong for you').
> 
> ...


Thank you for such a detailed response I really appreciate it


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

For those that have found reliable trainers are any of you guys in Socal?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My first GSD was extremely easy to train. She was willing to please and learned very fast. I was very lucky in that I found an excellent dog club (Scarborough Dog Training Associates in Toronto) to help with the obedience training. The lady who ran the club had been in business for many years and really, really knew her stuff!

Then along came Tasha, the 9 month old Wild Child that someone had dumped in Scarborough.  The were a different as chalk and cheese! She turned our 3 dog household upside down!

She was smart - VERY smart - but did not have Lili's desire to please. You'd ask her to do something, and she'd think about it, especially if she was off leash, and not within grabbing distance! 

I learned far, far more about dog training trying to train her than I ever did with Lili! And I'm not going to pretend I always did it right... 😟 She was a very tough, strong dog, and well...Kohler was the only training book I had back then. Fortunately, with her being so hard, she was able to throw off heavy-handed corrections, and forgive me. And she was a wonderful watch dog and protector of our house and car, for 14 years. 🥰


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I should say too, I did threat training with Teagan - with a trainer I really really liked - I had to travel, and I had watched his sessions (he had a field at his farm, and kennels etc...) with other dogs quite a few times before I brought her. Before I'd got Neb I'd been considering a Mal (all things considered, I think Neb was a better option? Who can say) and watched some Mals a few times in Montreal, doing SchH as well as French Ring - the breeder I met with (where some of the Montreal dogs had come from) said 'you can also watch some of our other dogs train with (the trainer I used)'. So I went out, watched those dogs train French Ring, watched other dogs train it and other protection sports etc...I knew the culture of the trainer, how he worked with dogs, and I was happy with his techniques and how the dogs he trained responded and behaved. 

He was not a clicker/'what a cute baby' kind of trainer, he was balanced, and I was more than okay with that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

HandlingAkira said:


> Kira leaves her bedding alone and selectively chews so we are waiting till we upgrade her to her big girl crate than will look into one for her. I feel bad as she looks pretty uncomfy without the mat and she’s never bothered chewing it so we’ve been a little more loose in that department


Don't be surprised if that changes as she grows. It isn't uncommon for young pups to leave bedding alone.

Shadow was just 2 weeks old when I brought her home. So she always had a towel to snuggle into. One day when she was about 5-6 months old I came home to a pile of thread puked up in her crate. When I pulled the towel out there was one entire corner of it chewed off. That ended the bedding in the crate until she was all grown up.

But now that I have 5 minutes I actually thought I would share with you how I raise puppies. Maybe it will help you. Or you can just ignore it.
When I bring home baby puppies we don't do anything structured. I think of raising a dog like building a house. Foundation first, brick by brick.
I don't really puppy proof anything, because my rule is eyes on or in the crate at all times. That means you aren't watching a movie, cleaning, talking on the phone. You are actively watching and engaging with the puppy! This does a few things. It helps with house training, it ingrains in you the idea of actually interacting with the dog and it teaches the dog that you are the source of all that is good and fun in the world. We learn sit, because sit is a cornerstone for everything. I teach it without any force. Yummy treat, right in front of puppies nose, raise your hand above the dogs head and move it very slightly back. Rule with pups, head goes up and butt goes down. On average a puppy will master sit in less then one day, many in just a few minutes.
Why sit? Because a dog that is sitting cannot run, jump, grab, etc. It will become the go to that allows you to stop all sorts of unwanted or hazardous behavior.
Beyond that they learn that my house is not a toilet and my other important house rules. I do nothing in structured sessions, we just roll with what is going on. We play, explore, cuddle and learn what is important to us. Chase is important as it lays the foundation for the recall, hide and seek is fun because it teaches them to care where I am and look for me, we learn to trade which teaches you can have this but not that, we start to learn about leashes and collars, we play with puppy toes and teeth and ears.
You are correct that puppies learn from day one, that does not mean that everything needs to be obedience. Learning means absorbing all your habits and needs. It means getting to know you and what you like and dislike. In general I ignore what I don't like and reward what I do like. You would be amazed at how quickly a grown dog will come to understand that jumping gets it ignored and sitting gets pets and attention. Now imagine your little sponge of a puppy. Barking makes me ignore you, quiet gets me to play with you. The problem is that most owners suck at ignoring things they don't like, and dogs are masters of reading body language.
I do NO formal obedience until around 6 months, adjusting for the dog in front of me.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> My first GSD was extremely easy to train. She was willing to please and learned very fast. I was very lucky in that I found an excellent dog club (Scarborough Dog Training Associates in Toronto) to help with the obedience training. The lady who ran the club had been in business for many years and really, really knew her stuff!
> 
> Then along came Tasha, the 9 month old Wild Child that someone had dumped in Scarborough.  The were a different as chalk and cheese! She turned our 3 dog household upside down!
> 
> ...


I read some of Kohler’s work and my past trainer that this thread was dedicated to did training under him for a short time. I could see the influence. your Tasha sounds like she was a wonderful girl 💜


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Don't be surprised if that changes as she grows. It isn't uncommon for young pups to leave bedding alone.
> 
> Shadow was just 2 weeks old when I brought her home. So she always had a towel to snuggle into. One day when she was about 5-6 months old I came home to a pile of thread puked up in her crate. When I pulled the towel out there was one entire corner of it chewed off. That ended the bedding in the crate until she was all grown up.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being so willing to help me, I will try out ignoring her when she jumps and barks, I always keep an eye on her and she is with me all the time ( I also don’t puppy proof haha but simply because I’m very chaotic) How did you keep your pups from chewing random stuff they find like table corners and things, right now I’m removing her from the area she is trying to chew etc and give her a toy chew that she prefers the taste of rather than our table legs and things, Also I think I need to start puppy proofing my glass coffee table corners, At times she will run and lose traction on our floors and slip and a few times now I've seen her with sheer luck miss the table corners


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

20+ years ago I trained adult dogs with Pasanita Obedience Club at the Rose Bowl park. They still exist and do AKC-style obedience. It may not be what you want because group classes are taught by club members who've put a lot of competitive OB titles on their own dogs, not name-brand trainers, but they've historically been very solid for both pet obedience and progressing to AKC events.

They start out with AKC's STAR Puppy program, a lot of which is education for new puppy owners and _very_ basic foundational OB -- lots of fun and games too, and I think Pasanita has a "STAR Evaluator" who does the AKC test at the end and can award a certificate or "medal" for those owners and puppies who pass: Puppy Class — Pasanita Obedience Club

Most puppies who do STAR also end up progressing to Canine Good Citizen soon after as STAR was designed to be a "pre-CGC" class for very young dogs. The national STAR Puppy program is described here: AKC S.T.A.R. Puppy – American Kennel Club

They help with behavior issues after class -- but they tend to not sugar-coat it when the owner is at the root of it, so some people get their feelings hurt. A friend dropped out of their Novice OB class after a couple of weeks because they called her out in front of everyone for not doing the homework practice and not paying attention on timing. I don't know if the club's personality has changed, but they had pretty high expectations of owners putting in the work back then, and one had to have a thick skin to take criticism and learn from it in their group classes.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

jarn said:


> I should say too, I did threat training with Teagan - with a trainer I really really liked - I had to travel, and I had watched his sessions (he had a field at his farm, and kennels etc...) with other dogs quite a few times before I brought her. Before I'd got Neb I'd been considering a Mal (all things considered, I think Neb was a better option? Who can say) and watched some Mals a few times in Montreal, doing SchH as well as French Ring - the breeder I met with (where some of the Montreal dogs had come from) said 'you can also watch some of our other dogs train with (the trainer I used)'. So I went out, watched those dogs train French Ring, watched other dogs train it and other protection sports etc...I knew the culture of the trainer, how he worked with dogs, and I was happy with his techniques and how the dogs he trained responded and behaved.
> 
> He was not a clicker/'what a cute baby' kind of trainer, he was balanced, and I was more than okay with that.


I respect the balance that those trainers bring to the table. To be very honest I think Kira would eat a clicker trainer for breakfast... She’s not one of those dogs that thrive off of “You’re such a good baby OH MY GOSH how good you are” and will hilt her head and whale eye you. but I hesitate to let a trainer manhandle her 1 because its wrong and 2 because it seems to bring out the worst in her so I’m in a weird spot. I love mals and was considering adopting one a while before I found Kira and I’m honestly glad I didn’t. I do not have that kind of structure, I love how hoppy and bouncy and full of energy mals are though and enjoy watching them


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> 20+ years ago I trained adult dogs with Pasanita Obedience Club at the Rose Bowl park. They still exist and do AKC-style obedience. It may not be what you want because group classes are taught by club members who've put a lot of competitive OB titles on their own dogs, not name-brand trainers, but they've historically been very solid for both pet obedience and progressing to AKC events.
> 
> They start out with AKC's STAR Puppy program, a lot of which is education for new puppy owners and _very_ basic foundational OB -- lots of fun and games too, and I think Pasanita has a "STAR Evaluator" who does the AKC test at the end and can award a certificate or "medal" for those owners and puppies who pass: Puppy Class — Pasanita Obedience Club
> 
> ...


that sounds amazing actually I will look into it
update : I looked at the price and almost had a heart attack. how is the price so good. My last trainer quoted me 760 dollars for 9 weeks of OB


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

YIKES!! Yes, that coffee table sounds like a disaster in the making!! 

Be careful - Eska totally destroyed my new (wood) coffee table when she was a pup. I SHOULD have put the new one somewhere safe, and just used the old thrift store table I had stored away, until she'd outgrown her beaver phase!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

HandlingAkira said:


> that sounds amazing actually I will look into it
> update : I looked at the price and almost had a heart attack. how is the price so good. My last trainer quoted me 760 dollars for 9 weeks of OB


Well, group classes are always cheaper than at-home private training because of economies of scale, and you're going to the park instead of them coming to you. Club classes are also almost always cheaper than private classes because it's not a "business," and nobody's relying on class fees to pay their rent or mortgage.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> YIKES!! Yes, that coffee table sounds like a disaster in the making!!
> 
> Be careful - Eska totally destroyed my new (wood) coffee table when she was a pup. I SHOULD have put the new one somewhere safe, and just used the old thrift store table I had stored away, until she'd outgrown her beaver phase!


I know it’s terrible! I only started happening the last 2 days she has become a zoom monster so I’m trying to wrap bubble wrap or something on the table as moving it isn’t really an option for us. I am 24/7 chasing after Akira making sure she doesn’t get into something


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

I know not everyone likes them, but I used an ex-pen for Beau for months and months when he was a puppy. It gave him a little more freedom from his crate, but also kept him out of trouble when I couldn’t have eyes on him. I put him in there with his toys and/or treats during the day and when I got him out he was under constant supervision - usually by us playing together or practicing sit, down, leave it, etc. The key is, not letting them figure out they’re stronger than the pen and making sure they’ve had enough exercise/stimulation before expecting them to chill in it.

It worked really well for us - to date at 3.5 years old the only non-approved item he destroyed was a decorative bowl he knocked off a shelf when he went after the little wicker ball in the bowl. And I blame myself for not realizing how tempting that would be and moving it to higher ground.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> Well, group classes are always cheaper than at-home private training because of economies of scale, and you're going to the park instead of them coming to you. Club classes are also almost always cheaper than private classes because it's not a "business," and nobody's relying on class fees to pay their rent or mortgage.


I will contact them and see if they still have openings


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

brittanyS said:


> I know not everyone likes them, but I used an ex-pen for Beau for months and months when he was a puppy. It gave him a little more freedom from his crate, but also kept him out of trouble when I couldn’t have eyes on him. I put him in there with his toys and/or treats during the day and when I got him out he was under constant supervision - usually by us playing together or practicing sit, down, leave it, etc. The key is, not letting them figure out they’re stronger than the pen and making sure they’ve had enough exercise/stimulation before expecting them to chill in it.
> 
> It worked really well for us - to date at 3.5 years old the only non-approved item he destroyed was a decorative bowl he knocked off a shelf when he went after the little wicker ball in the bowl. And I blame myself for not realizing how tempting that would be and moving it to higher ground.


the issue I think with that is Akira is very pushy and will push the envelope on everything just to see how far she can go. and she loves jumping


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

They can be clumsy so be careful with sharp corners. I don't allow crazy running indoors unless I had the space. At work when I first got her she ran and yelped and was limping a bit on her front paw. Nothing major and she was fine shortly after, but I'd rather not deal with that. I've got cheap furniture due to young kids so I'll wait that out. She's had 2 close encounters already when I got her going in the house especially when she shakes her head with something in her mouth. Wack! I don't mind if that happens on the walls lol. If she gets pushy I do a quick 2mins timeout in the crate by calmly saying "in bed". Her 3 or 4 zoomies she's done don't last long cause we act calm around her in the house. I can get her going by trying to chase her but quickly say all done. I'll have to think of ideas for next year. Maybe do some morning runs. March/April sucks cause the snow isn't soft anymore. I'll probably do much longer walks. Otherwise my yard and some fields near by she'll get a nice run.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

HandlingAkira said:


> Thank you for being so willing to help me, I will try out ignoring her when she jumps and barks, I always keep an eye on her and she is with me all the time ( I also don’t puppy proof haha but simply because I’m very chaotic) How did you keep your pups from chewing random stuff they find like table corners and things, right now I’m removing her from the area she is trying to chew etc and give her a toy chew that she prefers the taste of rather than our table legs and things, Also I think I need to start puppy proofing my glass coffee table corners, At times she will run and lose traction on our floors and slip and a few times now I've seen her with sheer luck miss the table corners


I keep them from chewing random things by keeping them engaged with me instead of random things. That is why eyes on or in the crate at all times. If you are playing or doing something with her she should not have time to be getting into stuff. 
Go to the baby section of any store and get the rubber corners made for tables.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Some of the hardest dogs are those that I use the most marker training with. The last thing I want is an adversarial relationship with a dog that wants to fight.

Once in a while you have to say no, you have to do this, but I keep those times to a minimum. 

The statement that a dog will eat a clicker trainer alive is telling. Trainers like Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Bart Bellon train some hard, aggressive dogs and the vast majority of their training is with markers.

Every single military dog I trained I used primarily marker training.

I wouldn't discount a trainer because they use a lot of rewards. I would ask them how they handle particular situations and if they use punishment in training when it is appropriate.

In the end, every system works for the right dog.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

@David Winners it's funny, I use verbal markers (generally 'yes!') but for whatever reason always think of clickers differently...I was taught to mark 'yes' etc. by balanced trainers but associate clickers with purely positive. 

We went over across the hall last night to help socialize their new rescue dog who spent 6 years outside in an outdoor shelter (in Mexico, so, not so cold - hopefully it had shelter from the other elements, I would expect so), has very little experience of humans (was in a field with other dogs, food dumped in once a day - and is very fear aggressive with new people - we're the first it has met in its home - it still snaps at the neighbours sometimes (and did at Toby last night, but that was his own fault, not the dog's), but at first was outright biting. They've made progress. Using purely positive trainers - and for sure, I would not use force on that dog - but they told the neighbours to not to ever tell the dog 'no', only say something when it does something good. I get not yelling at it, I am certain it would shut down (they've had it around 5 weeks). But if he's biting them, go ahead and say no (to me, but I'm just a dumb person) - and if they're not Toby who thinks giving it treats and it sniffing you for an hour means you should try to pet the dog despite it occasionally folding back it's ears and panting (sigh) than I would say for snapping too, the owners can say no. Not that you have to yell it, it's just a word to show 'don't do that'. But I am getting waaay off-topic. Pardon!

I will say, when I was watching the dogs train French Ring and doing the threat stuff with Teagan - I didn't see foundation work on all the dogs (few puppies in FR) but they were all PUMPED to work...Teagan immediately was like 'YEAAAAAAAAH' and took to it like a duck to water. Man she loved that. I never had to use any force at all, to start, there'd be something to test how'd she react, she always would do so appropriately, I guess I'd mark saying 'Yes! Whatever the command was! Yes, good command!' I remember the first time the trainer worked on car defence, said, well, we'll see what she does when I walk up to the car. Oh. Well, okay, let me open the door with the sleeve on. Best day ever, in Teagan's mind haha.


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## HandlingAkira (10 mo ago)

jarn said:


> @David Winners it's funny, I use verbal markers (generally 'yes!') but for whatever reason always think of clickers differently...I was taught to mark 'yes' etc. by balanced trainers but associate clickers with purely positive.
> 
> We went over across the hall last night to help socialize their new rescue dog who spent 6 years outside in an outdoor shelter (in Mexico, so, not so cold - hopefully it had shelter from the other elements, I would expect so), has very little experience of humans (was in a field with other dogs, food dumped in once a day - and is very fear aggressive with new people - we're the first it has met in its home - it still snaps at the neighbours sometimes (and did at Toby last night, but that was his own fault, not the dog's), but at first was outright biting. They've made progress. Using purely positive trainers - and for sure, I would not use force on that dog - but they told the neighbours to not to ever tell the dog 'no', only say something when it does something good. I get not yelling at it, I am certain it would shut down (they've had it around 5 weeks). But if he's biting them, go ahead and say no (to me, but I'm just a dumb person) - and if they're not Toby who thinks giving it treats and it sniffing you for an hour means you should try to pet the dog despite it occasionally folding back it's ears and panting (sigh) than I would say for snapping too, the owners can say no. Not that you have to yell it, it's just a word to show 'don't do that'. But I am getting waaay off-topic. Pardon!
> 
> I will say, when I was watching the dogs train French Ring and doing the threat stuff with Teagan - I didn't see foundation work on all the dogs (few puppies in FR) but they were all PUMPED to work...Teagan immediately was like 'YEAAAAAAAAH' and took to it like a duck to water. Man she loved that. I never had to use any force at all, to start, there'd be something to test how'd she react, she always would do so appropriately, I guess I'd mark saying 'Yes! Whatever the command was! Yes, good command!' I remember the first time the trainer worked on car defence, said, well, we'll see what she does when I walk up to the car. Oh. Well, okay, let me open the door with the sleeve on. Best day ever, in Teagan's mind haha.


I have to admit I do the same, I completely view clicker training as a whole other thing but was taught to mark with a very enthusiastic Yes, Good ___. and its worked to help my dogs get excited to train. my older dogs respond well to No also


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey, I love marker training. I don’t care if its a clicker or a “yes!”. It’s been magical with every breed I’ve owned, from squirrelly Italian Greyhounds to Dobes.

@David Winners knows, I’ve had to find a behaviorist for Nora, for her stranger danger issues. It’s kind of hard to have a show dog that doesn‘t want the judge to touch her. Ugh. No snapping, just major avoidance. I was pretty sure that sending her off to my amazing handler would set her right, but she said that Nora was just getting progressively worse, and needed a break. And to find a behaviorist to work with.

This woman has been the perfect person for us. Her breed is Dobes (which can be a challenge to train, as I know from having them myself), and she likes the clicker as well. We started just a basic manners class this week, no dogs this first meeting, just explaining how everything works with marker training, and what she wants to accomplish with this particular set of young dogs in her class. I’ve always loved going to “dog class“ and I’m super excited about this one. 

I had a private lesson with her back in January, which was very helpful. I had to take Nora to get her rabies shot recently, and while she did act like her brain was on fire for the first part of the vet visit, she ended up slamming her feet on the counter begging for a cookie while I was trying to pay. Big progress for her. 

Just a long winded way of saying don’t discount marker/clicker training. It’s such a great way for a dog to use his brain to learn behaviors.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

HandlingAkira said:


> ...I completely view clicker training as a whole other thing...


It's not, though. It's all marker training whether you use a clicker or a verbal marker. You can "capture" behaviors that the dog offers up spontaneously, then mark and reward, you can shape behaviors by marking and rewarding small increments towards the final objective, you can lure the dog into position, then mark and reward. David makes a very good point that it's effective with even hard core dogs because you want to motivate those dogs to work with you, you don't want them fighting against you.

This is a very young puppy - build your relationship, work on engagement, keep training fun (for both of you), and you'll get there. There's no need for heavy handed corrections at this point. And the more she wants to work with you, the less you'll need them later too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I always start marker training with a clicker. I just think it is a more clear picture to the dog. I move to verbal markers when I need my hands for other stuff and the dog already understands the game.

I almost always use a clicker to capture behaviors, even with older dogs.

I have a clicker zip tied to every one of my my treat pouches.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's a nice play video with ME and Pi. This is not a soft dog.

Look at how upbeat and locked in Pi is. This is a fun and rewarding game and that's what your training should look like. I work hard with new dogs and pups to build good play habits. Then I work in the work with the play. I really want a dog to want to comply.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Some of the hardest dogs are those that I use the most marker training with. The last thing I want is an adversarial relationship with a dog that wants to fight.
> 
> Once in a while you have to say no, you have to do this, but I keep those times to a minimum.
> 
> ...


thank you for saying this.
the key to working with a hard dog is not _always just about_ being or proving that you’re harder.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> thank you for saying this.
> the key to working with a hard dog is not being or proving that you’re harder.


There may come a time where you are in that position, but it's typically if the dog is new to you and already has HA issues, or you screw up.


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## Verachi (Mar 22, 2021)

Do any of you have any video recommendations on how to start clicker training for a complete beginner? A video or site that explains it all from scratch. My knowledge on it is pretty limited, I had only heard about it in passing and from people who mocked it at that :/ I would like to learn more and try teaching Vera knew things through clicker training


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Woe that was one heck of a video @David Winners very nice


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Toby and I are watching that ME video now! What a team. Agis loves the video too, he is watching intently. I have done engagement work with Agis (not that well, OBVIOUSLY), but Toby likes this video so much he just told me that he wants to work on this stuff with Agis! TOBY! Training! What has this world come to! Thank you for posting it  

@HandlingAkira everyone is absolutely right, marker and clicker training are one and the same. It's my own cognitive dissonance that I separate them (also, I am kinda clumsy and have never thought I'd be super good at using a clicker).


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> There may come a time where you are in that position, but it's typically if the dog is new to you and already has HA issues, or you screw up.


yes yes… i should have added a _simply_ or _typically_ or just elaborated more. in a fight, sure i’m not backing down… but in the context of this thread - early identification, approach, relationship development, but in, etc…. as we’ve discussed before.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Verachi said:


> Do any of you have any video recommendations on how to start clicker training for a complete beginner? A video or site that explains it all from scratch. My knowledge on it is pretty limited, I had only heard about it in passing and from people who mocked it at that :/ I would like to learn more and try teaching Vera knew things through clicker training


i don’t have any links handy or off the top of my head, but if no one else chimes in, i can see if there’s a green dog at work that i can borrow and grab a quick video of loading, food delivery and some target work.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I think - not being adept at a clicker, so likely ignore me and wait for others/Fodder, or wait for my thoughts below to be corrected (I will not be offended! Always good to learn  ) You probably know the below already, assuming I'm remotely correct.

I've always started with getting the dog looking at you (which may be a different issue), you mark (click, yes, whatever) and treat in pretty much the same breath (or motion? well, different hands and all). That way you load the marker - yes, click = treat! good stuff! Yay! Do that a whole bunch until the marker is loaded. A whoooooole bunch. It's a great relationship thing in my opinion though, because not only does it make the marker great, but you too! Then you can start commands/mark/treat and eventually the idea is once the marker is loaded you don't always have to use treats, you can just click/mark however you want, though I still vary with treats just because yay treats and all that. Operant conditioning or something?


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## Verachi (Mar 22, 2021)

Fodder said:


> i don’t have any links handy or off the top of my head, but if no one else chimes in, i can see if there’s a green dog at work that i can borrow and grab a quick video of loading, food delivery and some target work.


Oh wow, thank you for the offer! If you find the time that will be much appreciated


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

For great clicker training videos, check out the border collie trainers on YouTube. Kikopup is one with a ton of videos, beginner to advanced.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> i don’t have any links handy or off the top of my head, but if no one else chimes in, i can see if there’s a green dog at work that i can borrow and grab a quick video of loading, food delivery and some target work.


That would be awesome!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

jarn said:


> I think - not being adept at a clicker, so likely ignore me and wait for others/Fodder, or wait for my thoughts below to be corrected (I will not be offended! Always good to learn  ) You probably know the below already, assuming I'm remotely correct.
> 
> *I've always started with getting the dog looking at you *(which may be a different issue), you mark (click, yes, whatever) and treat in pretty much the same breath (or motion? well, different hands and all). That way you load the marker - yes, click = treat! good stuff! Yay! Do that a whole bunch until the marker is loaded. A whoooooole bunch. It's a great relationship thing in my opinion though, because not only does it make the marker great, but you too! Then you can start commands/mark/treat and eventually *the idea is once the marker is loaded you don't always have to use treats, you can just click/mark however you want*, though I still vary with treats just because yay treats and all that. Operant conditioning or something?


not….. quite 🙃

1. i start even more basic…. loading the clicker is simply click, feed, to pair the two, over and over, no behavior is required. i want my dogs offering many different things rather than marking one thing from the beginning, to realize that they “drive” the clicker…. they’re essentially in control, not always waiting for me to say or do something… creates independent thinkers. a lot of people skip this step but i personally see a difference in achieving my goals quicker and clearer with the dogs and since i can usually do it in a minute or less, why not.

2. the command is the LAST thing i add. once i’m 99% sure i can get/predict the desired behavior. because….. if i say sit and the dog sits, they already know sit therefore i don’t need the clicker (teaching tool), just the reward, unless i’m trying to refine positioning or generalize the behavior. also, if i say go to bed and the dog sits then stands then whines then goes to the couch then it’s bed, you can frustrate the dog or end up marking the entire pattern rather than the end result.

3. if i’m using the clicker, i will reward 100% of the time with food, honestly, even if i click on accident….. i never wean off of that combination. it’s a package deal. it stays more powerful that way. that said…. i _will_ wean off of using a clicker and sometimes transition to a verbal marker but i don’t “load” my verbal markers… they still come with the correct behavior, more of an acknowledgement, but what follows might be a treat a pet a ball a release or whatever.

anyway, those are just my cliff notes addressing some points that you mentioned, where i differ. i’m sure not as clear or detailed as i could be.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Fodder said:


> not….. quite 🙃
> 
> 1. i start even more basic…. loading the clicker is simply click, feed, to pair the two, over and over, no behavior is required. i want my dogs offering many different things rather than marking one thing from the beginning. they “drive” the clicker…. they’re essentially in control, not always waiting for me to say or do something… creates independent thinkers. a lot of people skip this step but i personally see a difference in achieving my goals quicker and clearer with the dogs and since i can usually do it in a minute or less, why not.
> 
> ...


Oh thank you! This is very good to know.

This is why I said not to listen to me heh. But now I'm learning too. Really appreciate it.

Agis's trainers didn't entirely do it that way, but then, maybe that was because I'd already trained a bunch of things? I found the handlers and dogs were all in different places, especially in Level I. I used a few different training places with him too. But what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

Xerxes gets good! and treats (beagles love their treats!) but I never loaded anything - he already knew commands when we got him, but I've often thought about stripping back his training as he could use a bit more...focus...he's kinda insane, in the best way, but awfully flighty. Maybe it's a beagle thing, maybe it's him, dunno...staying still is not his strong suit. He does sleep and relax, but if he's on his feet, he's never stationary, I'm not good at describing it but you probably know what I mean. I swear he gets lots of exercise...the first 25k hike we did with him when we first had him, he spent the whole time baying and hunting, if that gives you an idea. He can't just hike or run, he's got to, well, hunt. Even in the house he's squirrelly when not sleeping or snuggling or licking in your ear yech. We always say he has a zest for life!

As I was trying to say, I've been thinking about retraining Xerxes kind of - so I shall use this knowledge. Yay!


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

About clicker/marker training - also pay attention to your body movement. There's supposed to be a ~half second gap between the clicker/marker and your hand motion to bring out the treat. If you mark and move your hand at the same time, your hand's movement will overshadow the clicker/marker.

I'm terrible at this so my "movement cues" are always more effective than my verbal cues 

kikopup's videos for clicker training stuff are great.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I only got through part of page 1.

OP says the pup is "soft" ... my read is that the trainer is used to tough, hard pups and trains for hard drive pups. But all I have here is words on a board. ...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Kikopup??  SERIOUSLY?? The trainer who believes you'll scar your dog for life if you raise your voice or tell it 'no'?

No...just--NO! I can't even bear to listen to her for more than 30 seconds! 
The person who introduced me to her videos has dogs that are extremely ill mannered, and that's another thing that turned me off.

I was introduced to her about 14 years ago. It seems she has quite the following now. Maybe I should see if she's changed at all, or if she still sets my teeth on edge...

Then, again, I've never been a fan of clicker training, though I did give it a try. I found it's easier for me to time reinforcement with my voice. Also, having one hand tied up with the leash and the other with the clicker just felt...awkward. And there are times when you need more than one had on the leash.


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## cocobarksalot (Oct 28, 2021)

voice marker training is still clicker training imo. i think kikopup has great content for teaching trick and obedience training through shaping and luring. you can proof those behaviors however you want after that.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

100% positive training is a scam. Try that with raising kids too. They'll walk all over. What are you gonna do say no nicely in public and offer the child a sucker? They'll play you worse than your dog. Put your foot down and don't worry. My kid will go to the bedroom for a 2 min cry come back out and apologize. Does it again with attitude time out or grounding. Just make sure the punishment is fair similar to the dog. Dog pees in the house that's on you. About to do a leash correction but the dog looks at you? Don't correct. 

That's why people say how a dog behaves is based on its handler generally.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

AE316 said:


> 100% positive training is a scam. Try that with raising kids too. They'll walk all over. What are you gonna do say no nicely in public and offer the child a sucker? They'll play you worse than your dog. Put your foot down and don't worry. My kid will go to the bedroom for a 2 min cry come back out and apologize. Does it again with attitude time out or grounding. Just make sure the punishment is fair similar to the dog. Dog pees in the house that's on you. About to do a leash correction but the dog looks at you? Don't correct.
> 
> That's why people say how a dog behaves is based on its handler generally.


The problem with 100% positive is that it is a marketing term even positive only trainers use negative quadrants during training. Saying NO is a negative, turning away and ignoring the dog is a negative. 

What they really mean is no physical corrections.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Verachi asked for introduction to clicker training videos…… the basics are loading, timing, food delivery, establishing your criteria and a teaching basic behavior. one of the reasons i hesitated (looking for and) posting links and just offered to film my own is because my focus would be on the simple request - and not confused with people thinking i was endorsing any particular trainer. when it comes to clicker training, it’s true, the trick trainers pretty much have it down. and as someone mentioned… once you’ve got the basics, you can do as you please with your new skill.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Kikopup is an outstanding clicker trainer with a very easy to understand delivery. I don't agree with everything she says, but she can capture or shape a behavior as well as anyone and she goes through incremental raising of criteria and how to handle setbacks. 

If you can't watch a free video and take away something of value while leaving what you don't agree with, I'm not sure what to say. I trained military dogs with the same techniques and quickly became the go to obedience guy in a kennels with 15 trainers and 600 dogs. No, I don't agree with everything she says, but I can say the same for any trainer. I've been to a bunch of seminars where I didn't agree with a lot of what the trainer said, but I took away a skill or some understanding that I didn't have before.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Kikopup is an outstanding clicker trainer with a very easy to understand delivery. I don't agree with everything she says, but she can capture or shape a behavior as well as anyone and she goes through incremental raising of criteria and how to handle setbacks.
> 
> If you can't watch a free video and take away something of value while leaving what you don't agree with, I'm not sure what to say. I trained military dogs with the same techniques and quickly became the go to obedience guy in a kennels with 15 trainers and 600 dogs. No, I don't agree with everything she says, but I can say the same for any trainer. I've been to a bunch of seminars where I didn't agree with a lot of what the trainer said, but I took away a skill or some understanding that I didn't have before.


yes!
just as i train guide dogs… yet my jobs pays for (and requires) us to attend seminars that focus on training k9’s, marine mammals, kennel enrichment for shelter dogs, etc - all for the sake of our continued education.


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## Verachi (Mar 22, 2021)

I’m finding the beginner stuff from kikopup to be quite helpful. I didn’t think at all that David was insinuating he agrees with all of her methods, just that she was a good resource to understand how to clicker train correctly. I don’t think I’ve met a single person who I agree with their views on everything. I don’t see why dog training would be any different 😉


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> yes!
> just as i train guide dogs… yet my jobs pays for (and requires) us to attend seminars that focus on training k9’s, marine mammals, kennel enrichment for shelter dogs, etc - all for the sake of our continued education.


Mike Suttle, who trains top tier working dogs, starts students by clicker training chickens to do tricks. All his detection training is clicker based. 

Most of the trainers at VLK made fun of me when I started using a clicker with Fama, until 3 weeks later when I could run her on the obstacle course with verbal commands while sitting on a picnic table and her OB looked better than their personal dogs. Then they wanted to know about all this clicker training stuff.

Trainers that work with animals that can't be forced into compliance all use marker training. Marine mammals are a great example.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Years and years ago, I was in an internet clicker group that had Bob Bailey as a participant. He had his famous “chicken camp” back then. I think this is a really good read:



Chicken Camp. Marian and Bob Bailey – Green Acres Kennel Shop Blog


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Okay, that's it, today I start stripping down Xerxes's training to basics and start over - he'll love me loading the marker, he is a beagle after all, so treats are obviously the best thing in the world. I am definitely not coordinated enough for a clicker (if you knew me in person you would chuckle and agree), but I can use 'yes' as a marker.

I was all proud this morning because he didn't bay back at a big Lab that was losing it at him and Neb (Toby took Agis separately; Xerxes had an accident last night - dunno how much he'd drank - he danced around, I was like 'we have to take him out' but weren't fast enough with shoes etc. Whoops. He turns 7 this year, we've had him for years and he is house trained (obviously), that was totally our fault...anyways, we wanted to hustle him out this morning). 

Xerxes definitely noticed the Lab, of course, but since he's so reactive I said 'No, come on bud' and he just came with me. Whoo! But I am excited to think of what results I could get if I retrained him! (When we adopted him he already knew commands, so I didn't really fuss - though, we taught him quiet )


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

jarn said:


> Okay, that's it, today I start stripping down Xerxes's training to basics and start over


Do it! 

I’m pretty sure not a soul in our local GSD club uses marker training. I’m the weirdo. I’m not interested in having a dull robot dog.

Many years ago when my Dobe was young, I took her through some clicker classes. She LOVED it. At some point though, I had to go to a “regular” class if I was going to try competitive obedience with her. There were no clicker classes that went beyond the very basics. The instructor was very old school compulsion, and my dog completely stopped paying attention to me. I had to go to the training director because my dog was bored out of her mind (I wouldn’t yank and crank her, so we did a lot of standing around). Bring the clicker out, and have her use her brain, and she just lit up. The director told me to use my clicker anyway (the trainer did not like it). I’ve had a bad taste in my mouth with that club ever since. Most of my GSD friends train at that club. That’s a big nope from me.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks @dogfaeries - good for you for standing up for your Dobe. 

I am all excited now. Just did some non-marker stuff with the boys (well, I was just giving them some treats) and with down Xerxes didn't excel - mind you, he was trying to do it on top of Agis, eesh, that doesn't work well bud, move over) and I am really hoping it challenges him as we move to stuff he hasn't already learned - maybe tricks! 

I know he's got the Beagle brain, which, you know, not obedience stars and all that - but he does know commands, he's learned stuff and is not a dumb boy at all - and he's got a teensy tiny bit of BC, so imagine, he might be the smartest Beagle in the world heh heh heh. But I think he'll really enjoy doing training using a marker. He's very attached, so I think that's another reason he'll excel, if that doesn't sound weird.


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## Verachi (Mar 22, 2021)

I mainly wanted to learn how to do it to better Vera’s obedience training, but yes! After seeing the videos I thought this could be so much fun for my 14 year old! Her obedience is fine, but due to her conditions, physical exercise is very limited and she is BORED. I think she would love learning the beginning stuff I saw, like teaching “touch” while loading the clicker. I’m excited to try for both of them 😄


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I had Italian Greyhounds for years, and sighthounds aren’t known for their brains or trainability. The clicker was absolutely made for them. My (then) 11 year old son took a completely untrained IG into the bathroom with a clicker and a bag of treats. Without touching that dog, he had a fantastic sit on him in about 15 minutes. Of all the dogs I’ve ever owned, that dog had the most enthusiastic sit you’ve ever seen, lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The reason ME started marker training was how happy and excited the competitive OB dogs that were clicker trained looked. Upbeat, happy to work dogs vs dogs going through the motions.

Compare SCH OB videos from 20 years ago to today. The OB is night and day different in motivation to work.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Oh I LOVE using clicker training. I'm absolutely terrible at it, I admit, but it's the best option I've ever used personally. And my pups love it because I tend to over-treat (I SAID I was bad at it LOL)

My only problem is that I keep losing my clickers and I'm not good enough to give verbal markers on time most of the time. I'm aware of Kikopup and I've seen a few of her videos, but for some reason her dogs always look nervous or anxious to me instead of happy and ready to engage. It makes it hard for me to watch.

Another bad habit of mine is that I begin training with distractions. I taught Sutter Cain most of his silly pet tricks with other dogs and things around. Mostly because that was simply the most opportune time to work with him. I'm slow to correct if they get it wrong in those circumstances, I just don't treat. But yeah, I SHOULD start in quiet environments more often. It just rarely works out that way.

On the other hand, Sutter Cain is practically bomb-proof already. An unintended but very welcome consequence.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I definitely have to train Xerxes away from the other two. I've tried teaching Xerxes stuff like tricks, but Agis is v-e-r-y enthusiastic about obedience and he'll run over while I'm working with Xerxes, body check Xerxes out of the way and start doing what I'm trying to teach Xerxes. 'Oooh oooh I know this! I know this!' Clearly Agis's place needs some work  I was able to work with Agis around Xerxes and Neb, because if they knew what we were working on they'd do it off to the side, like polite boys.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

dogfaeries said:


> I had Italian Greyhounds for years, and sighthounds aren’t known for their brains or trainability. The clicker was absolutely made for them.


Toby is convinced Xerxes is an idiot...I tell him, no, his brain is just taken up with stuff like hunting creatures and sniffing for creatures and looking for dogs to bay at (he's pretty good about not doing so, at least with me - but he still LOOKS. Just looking, he says, not baying...just looking).


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