# Questions on Puppy Behavior



## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

My almost (tomorrow) 8 week old puppy Tess is acting awfully aggressive for a little puppy, I'm wondering if this is normal behavior. She will charge through the house growling and snapping at me, if I pick her up, she cries and squirms like I'm killing her to get down and if I play with her or try to put my hands on her to pat her, she snaps at me, not just a little bite but an out and out snap. Sometimes she's just the sweetest little thing but lately, she's a lunatic. Is this normal for a puppy of 8 weeks? I know that puppies bite and nip, I've been there before, but she's just down right mean. Is this something that will pass?

I've been working on her sit and come commands and she's doing pretty good, I call her to me and she'll come running so I will click and treat or click and make a big deal about it. When she bites, I've tried everything, I've squealed and turned away from her, I've put her in her crate for a time out, etc. etc. When I take her out in the yard, she likes to pick up little rocks in her mouth, so I watch her like a hawk. If she finds one or a leave and I begin to approach her, she'll run like the wind and boy is she fast....thankfully I have a fenced in yard.

Please tell me that this is normal puppy behavior? Are there other's who are going through similar issues? I try to think back to when my Lab was a puppy, he was very nippy when he was a puppy but grew out of it, will she grow out of it? I plan to put her in Puppy Kindergarten as soon as I can after she has her second set of shots, which is this coming Saturday.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Aramis' Mummy (Oct 16, 2012)

My pup is 9wks and yikes does he ever have sharp teeth. It feels like all I do when we are outside is say leave it, drop it and take rocks, leaves,sticks, pinecones etc out of his mouth. From everything I have read yes eventually they will grow out of using us a human chew toy, they want to play with us and we have to teach them the right way, everytime mine nips or bites me and tell him no bite and give him a chew toy. after he wakes up is always the worst time cause he has so much energy so we play and train then when he is a bit calmer I can touch him getting mostly gentle nips lol. hang in there


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

You're describing your pup's behavior as 'aggressive'. Are you sure it's aggression and not playing? My first issue is the pup's age. Why on earth people are getting pups younger than 8 weeks I do not know or understand. Some bite inhibition is taught during those last couple of weeks with the mom and litter. However, I'd like to ask if you can get a video to post of this behavior. If the pup is truly being aggressive, I'd return it to the breeder for extremely poor temperament. However, without seeing it, it's impossible to say. With that out of the way, I'll make another post on the assumption that the pup is NOT being aggressive, but playful. Not all pups like to be picked up. Grim does not. He will sometimes carry on like I'm killing him, and other times not. He's never liked to be picked up.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Picture taking a bottle of soda. Shake it up some, then twist off the lid. What happens to the soda? 

Take a young puppy. All that energy trapped in their little body. Then pick up that puppy...what happens? WHAAAAAAA! All that energy has to go somewhere! 

Have TONS of toys within your reach. Which ever room your pup has access to, make sure you have toys. When that puppy starts roaring through the house (as much as a baby can) re-direct with a toy. When your puppy starts to gnaw off your feet, hands, face, hair, elbows etc., re-direct with a toy. 

When you can't re-direct unwanted behavior, then it's kennel time. 

Remember it's a baby. Nothing works over night with a baby. Lots of patience on your part. Lots. Lots. Lots. Did I mention lots?


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

I'd be concerned about a bad temperament at that age too. My pup is almost 3 months and he's been playful since the day we got him at a little more than 8 weeks old. I've never considered it possible aggression though. It's blatant playing. I know a lot of people are against scruffig or pinning but I do it(per my trainer) and i agree with it. Biting the pack is 100% unacceptable and the dog needs to know that from a young age. So he gets scruffed. I've only had to pin him once when he didn't stop after being scruffed. You pin him until he lets out a sigh of surrender. You let him up slowly and don't back away. When you scruff him same thing, stand over him. Don't walk away. Roman will bark a few times at me for scruffig him and then walk away. The biting has diminished considerably. I can sit on the floor with him without being eaten. If he attempts to mouth at me I say no and he backs off usually. If not, he gets a good scruff. 

Again, biting the pack(you) is absolutely unacceptable and it's best to get it squashed ASAP.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a co-worker who's husband brought home a Dobe puppy. She was under 8 weeks old when they brought her home. Two weeks (pup was yet to be 10 weeks old) later, my co-worker came to me crying because her husband is out of town and the puppy attacked her. He chased her through the house trying to attack her. She jumped on her bed screaming at the pup. But the puppy kept trying to jump up and attack her. She was able to leap from the bed and out the bedroom, slamming the door behind her. 

I asked her to carefully explain to me what happened. As she explained, I asked questions about the puppies specific behaviors during the 'attack'. What she described was normal puppy behavior. Including play bowing, grabbing a towel and dragging it across the room, barking, tripping on it's own legs and rolling around on the floor with her shoe in it's mouth. Normal 'bad' puppy behavior. Not agression. She has a high drive puppy. Which btw, has gone on to become very successful in tracking. 

Let your trainer tell you if you've got 'Lassie' or 'Cujo'. I wouldn't start rolling and pinning a baby.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Jag said:


> You're describing your pup's behavior as 'aggressive'. Are you sure it's aggression and not playing? My first issue is the pup's age. Why on earth people are getting pups younger than 8 weeks I do not know or understand. Some bite inhibition is taught during those last couple of weeks with the mom and litter. However, I'd like to ask if you can get a video to post of this behavior. If the pup is truly being aggressive, I'd return it to the breeder for extremely poor temperament. However, without seeing it, it's impossible to say. With that out of the way, I'll make another post on the assumption that the pup is NOT being aggressive, but playful. Not all pups like to be picked up. Grim does not. He will sometimes carry on like I'm killing him, and other times not. He's never liked to be picked up.


I was wondering too if you could post a video. Seven bites when playing or wound up, but I don't think I ever worried it was aggression. The way you describe it has me curious though...you said things differently than others who have posted about puppy biting so I'm wondering if it is different or if your perception is different.

How old was the pup when you got him (her? I can't remember)? What kind of situation did it come out of?


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I have a co-worker who's husband brought home a Dobe puppy. She was under 8 weeks old when they brought her home. Two weeks (pup was yet to be 10 weeks old) later, my co-worker came to me crying because her husband is out of town and the puppy attacked her. He chased her through the house trying to attack her. She jumped on her bed screaming at the pup. But the puppy kept trying to jump up and attack her. She was able to leap from the bed and out the bedroom, slamming the door behind her.
> 
> I asked her to carefully explain to me what happened. As she explained, I asked questions about the puppies specific behaviors during the 'attack'. What she described was normal puppy behavior. Including play bowing, grabbing a towel and dragging it across the room, barking, tripping on it's own legs and rolling around on the floor with her shoe in it's mouth. Normal 'bad' puppy behavior. Not agression. She has a high drive puppy. Which btw, has gone on to become very successful in tracking.
> 
> Let your trainer tell you if you've got 'Lassie' or 'Cujo'. I wouldn't start rolling and pinning a baby.


Why do people say this? What do you think the mother does? How do you think the dog learns respect in the pack. If you walk away from your puppy when it's biting you or simply redirect it, it will never learn that he is absolutely not allowed to bite you under any circumstance. You are basically submitting to the dog if you walk away from it or ignore it. 

I have a VERY well behaved dog. He behaves in his crate, behaves on walks, and as stated the biting has decreased significantly. It's ok to demand respect from your dog. You do not want a large dog thinking he owns you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jlbjab08 said:


> Why do people say this? What do you think the mother does? How do you think the dog learns respect in the pack. If you walk away from your puppy when it's biting you or simply redirect it, it will never learn that he is absolutely not allowed to bite you under any circumstance. You are basically submitting to the dog if you walk away from it or ignore it.
> 
> I have a VERY well behaved dog. He behaves in his crate, behaves on walks, and as stated the biting has decreased significantly. It's ok to demand respect from your dog. You do not want a large dog thinking he owns you.


Why do people say this? I have had 5 mother dogs, and not a one of them has ever acted with ANY aggression toward an eight or ten week old puppy. My gosh, I have Jenna in with a seven month old female pup, her pup, and she is never aggressive toward her. She lets the puppy jump up and get pets from me, completely walk all over her, and she is the most dominant bitch in my pack, not a bitch who is constantly scrapping or fence fighting with other dogs, but the one that ALL the other dogs accept as the total leader. 

I have a number of VERY well-behaved dogs. They behave in their crates. They behave on walks. Thy are not mouthy, for the most part, the puppies are, but they grow out of it, without any serious intervention. I have never physically demanded respect from my dogs. I train them, I care for them, I do not practice NILIF. They do not have to sing for their supper, or sit for their supper. Not a one of them thinks that she owns me.


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

Jag said:


> You're describing your pup's behavior as 'aggressive'. Are you sure it's aggression and not playing? My first issue is the pup's age. Why on earth people are getting pups younger than 8 weeks I do not know or understand. Some bite inhibition is taught during those last couple of weeks with the mom and litter. However, I'd like to ask if you can get a video to post of this behavior. If the pup is truly being aggressive, I'd return it to the breeder for extremely poor temperament. However, without seeing it, it's impossible to say. With that out of the way, I'll make another post on the assumption that the pup is NOT being aggressive, but playful. Not all pups like to be picked up. Grim does not. He will sometimes carry on like I'm killing him, and other times not. He's never liked to be picked up.


I may have been exaggerating her puppy antics a bit too much, I really don't believe that she is aggressive, not in the least, especially after reading back over past posts from those who were/are having the same problems as I am, with plain ole puppy play biting. 

I apologize for my quick haste to say that she is aggressive, I had no sleep last night and have been crying all day due to putting my 12.5 year old chocolate Lab Cocoa down last night, which was a horrifying experience for me, something I'm not sure if I will ever get over due to the way he was euthanized. He was never given a sedative before the final shot, so neither me or my husband were ready for what we watched our boy go through in the vets office. So I haven't been myself all day and after sitting down to play with Tess and having her start acting like loco puppy, I reacted. I too believe that we got her too soon, I wanted to wait one more week until she was 8 weeks but it is what it is and I'm trying to deal with it. 

After watching some of the videos posted from other's further back, I have to say that my girl isn't half as bad as some of them were when they were her age and a little older.

I haven't gotten to the point where she has broken any skin yet, although my husband has a few scratches. Hopefully I can get through this stage in one piece. I'm just devastated over the loss of my boy, please bare with me.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

selzer said:


> . Thy are not mouthy, for the most part, the puppies are, but they grow out of it, without any serious intervention. .


Thank you for this. I'm always so worried I'm not doing enough to discourage it.

Linda, I'm sorry for the loss of your dog. It is always so hard when a pet passes. I'm sure your GSD will give you years of joy (after some months of terror  )



Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

SewSleepy said:


> I was wondering too if you could post a video. Seven bites when playing or wound up, but I don't think I ever worried it was aggression. The way you describe it has me curious though...you said things differently than others who have posted about puppy biting so I'm wondering if it is different or if your perception is different.
> 
> How old was the pup when you got him (her? I can't remember)? What kind of situation did it come out of?
> 
> ...


No, I'm sorry I do not have any videos, and yes, I do believe my perception was off and I jumped the gun a bit. It wasn't until I read back about 40 pages and found a post that has asked the same questions as I did, she was worried that her puppy was aggressive and that it bit her husband, kids, etc...and when I read all the responses from people who were going through the same things, I felt a huge relief. Tess is just being a puppy. Yes, my older dog Cocoa had similar issues but seeing that it was almost 13 years ago, I couldn't remember just had bad they were. Tess is 8 weeks old and I got her last Saturday when she was 7 weeks old. She is from a great line of GSD and I met both her mother and father. I loved both of them, her mother has the sweetest temperament and so does her dad for that matter. Her mom is a long haired GSD and dad is a short haired. Believe me, I did my research, just as I did with my late Lab Cocoa and he gave me 12.5 of the best years a dog could give to an owner.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Why do people say this? I have had 5 mother dogs, and not a one of them has ever acted with ANY aggression toward an eight or ten week old puppy. My gosh, I have Jenna in with a seven month old female pup, her pup, and she is never aggressive toward her. She lets the puppy jump up and get pets from me, completely walk all over her, and she is the most dominant bitch in my pack, not a bitch who is constantly scrapping or fence fighting with other dogs, but the one that ALL the other dogs accept as the total leader.
> 
> I have a number of VERY well-behaved dogs. They behave in their crates. They behave on walks. Thy are not mouthy, for the most part, the puppies are, but they grow out of it, without any serious intervention. I have never physically demanded respect from my dogs. I train them, I care for them, I do not practice NILIF. They do not have to sing for their supper, or sit for their supper. Not a one of them thinks that she owns me.


That's great. There's still nothing wrong with a different method if a person so chooses to practice it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

German Shepherd puppies are NOT like many other breeds! I love them but they can sure not be the easiest..

Your 8 week old baby is absolutely normal for a GSD pup  Have you had a chance to wander around ---> Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums There is wonderful information there to help you now and in the upcoming months.

Specifically --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...wner/188549-puppy-biting-hints-tips-help.html

:wub:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Linda, I am so very sorry for your loss!  Yes, GSD pups are just especially mouthy, and can play very rough! Grim has been a holy terror, LOL! I am covered with bruises, cuts, and scabs both on my arms and ankles. I think he's starting to calm a little...or I'm getting better at dodging him.  Hang in there.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> Why do people say this? What do you think the mother does?


#1: You're not a dog. 
#2: You're not the puppy's mother. 
#3: Your puppy knows this, and getting physical with him is not the way to earn his respect.  Sure, you're bigger and stronger than he is when he's a puppy, but that won't always be the case, and then brute force no longer works. Willing cooperation does work, no matter how big and strong your dog gets. 



> If you walk away from your puppy when it's biting you or simply redirect it, it will never learn that he is absolutely not allowed to bite you under any circumstance. You are basically submitting to the dog if you walk away from it or ignore it.


Nope, you're not submitting to the dog. Puppies don't bite because they're trying to be dominant over you. If a puppy is amped up and biting you IN PLAY, the way he was used to playing with his littermates, puppy needs to learn that all playing STOPS if he doesn't play nice. It's up to you the owner to teach the puppy what the rules are for playing with humans. Redirecting to a toy does exactly that - don't bite me, bite THIS. You're showing your puppy how you'd like him to interact and engage with you, and don't we WANT our puppies to interact and engage with us? 

And walking away, or timeouts, or some other form of ending play can be very effective. With Cassidy, the biggest form of punishment we could possibly dish out was to walk out of the room, close the door behind us, and leave us alone. She HATED that! So if she wouldn't play nice, if she persisted in biting, if she wouldn't redirect to a toy, I got up and left the room immediately. She soon learned that if she wanted us to stay with her and continue playing, she had to play by our rules. No brute force required, no dominance/submission hooey, just a puppy who clearly understood the rules and chose to obey them because that's how she got what she wanted. 

You can DEMAND respect from your dog if you want to, personally I'd rather have respect offered freely. That's what leadership is all about.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> #1: You're not a dog.
> #2: You're not the puppy's mother.
> #3: Your puppy knows this, and getting physical with him is not the way to earn his respect.  Sure, you're bigger and stronger than he is when he's a puppy, but that won't always be the case, and then brute force no longer works. Willing cooperation does work, no matter how big and strong your dog gets.
> 
> ...


Oh ok. Ill ignore the advice of a professional trainer. Thanks for clearing that up :I


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jlbjab08 said:


> Oh ok. Ill ignore the advice of a professional trainer. Thanks for clearing that up :I


Not sure if you are being sarcastic. Cassidy's Mom is spot on. 

The thing is we could all step down and refer everyone to "professional trainers", but the only thing you need to do to call yourself a professional trainer, is to call yourself a professional trainer. You do not need any classes, degrees, certifications, endorsements, nothing. 

There was a "professional trainer" in Chicago a few years ago, who trained dogs by strapping several e-collars on them, specifically around their genitals, and zapped them. She was a professional trainer. People paid her to train their dogs. 

And list after list after list. The PetCo trainer who killed the dog. 

There are so many dog trainers out there. They say that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

'professional' trainer is just someone getting paid to train...it doesn't mean they are legit. 
I'd rather not have my dog submit to me,but be my partner. And bonding with my pup is more important to me than showing that I am the 'dominant' one in our relationship. Because if I show fair leadership the roles will show themselves as we train together.
Biddability though, is genetic...not all dogs are biddable and easy to work with, still, I wouldn't pin/roll or cause my pup to lose confidence at such a young age. I'd rather have my pup trust me and look to me for guidance.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

I realize none of you have any clue who I'm referring to when I say professional trainer. But make no mistake it is no your local pet store "trainer". It's not some bum that woke up one day and decided to train animals. He's got 20 years of experience. Everything from basic obedience, bite work, personal protection, security, law enforcement, etc. I call him my own dog whisperer. After talking to him for 10 mins its painfully clear that he knows exactly what he's doing. Bottom line, there are other ways to train a dog. It doesn't have to always be rainbows and sing along songs to have a well trained dog. 

Some of you remind me of parents that think every kid should get a ribbon so they don't feel like the fat/dumb kid on the team. 

There are other approaches. Just because they dog mirror yours doesn't mean it's wrong or harmful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We cannot even trust vets, but at least they have to complete a lengthy schooling and I think they pass a bar test of some type to be licensed to practice in the state, and they have a regulating panel, the AVMA.

Because there really are no standards, you kind of have to read some books and take what makes sense to you out of them; post your question on the net, and read the answers and take what makes sense to you out of them; listen to a trainer, and try what makes sense to you; and draw from your previous experiences with other dogs or this dog, and see what works and what doesn't. Just relying on a trainer isn't a good approach because without a baseline, you cannot truly distinguish between a good trainer and a charlatan. If you rely on what people say on the internet, same deal, you have no baseline, and someone who doesn't even have a dog might parrot something they have kind of heard and got totally wrong. And if you don't do the trainer, well, a good trainer can see how you respond to your dog and how your dog responds to you and how the pair of you responds to different methods. A good trainer can tell you what body language your dog is picking up on that you can't possibly see on your own. You can't get that out of books or the internet.

And, just because someone has been yanking and cranking for 40 years, does not mean they are a good trainer, it does not mean they are the right trainer for you and your pup, for what you want to accomplish.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> It doesn't have to always be rainbows and sing along songs to have a well trained dog.
> 
> Some of you remind me of parents that think every kid should get a ribbon so they don't feel like the fat/dumb kid on the team.


Wow, way to completely mischaracterize what everyone else has been saying! :rofl:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jlbjab08 said:


> *I realize none of you have any clue who I'm referring to when I say professional trainer*. But make no mistake it is no your local pet store "trainer". It's not some bum that woke up one day and decided to train animals. He's got 20 years of experience. Everything from basic obedience, bite work, personal protection, security, law enforcement, etc. I call him my own dog whisperer. After talking to him for 10 mins its painfully clear that he knows exactly what he's doing. Bottom line, *there are other ways to train a dog.* It doesn't have to always be rainbows and sing along songs to have a well trained dog.
> 
> Some of you remind me of parents that think every kid should get a ribbon so they don't feel like the fat/dumb kid on the team.
> 
> There are other approaches. Just because they dog mirror yours doesn't mean it's wrong or harmful.


Really, how do you know what we know? I'm not all "rainbows and sing along" with my dogs either, but an 8 week old puppy is just a baby. I'd rather keep that confidence high, it can always be squelched later (if necessary)...it is much harder to rebuild it if you've knocked it out early on.
Different techniques are great, open mind is wonderful. Consistency is key.
And we all know that saying....what do trainers agree on? The other one is wrong


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Linda, I just reread your post about Cocoa....so very sorry for your loss. RIP Cocoa.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> I realize none of you have any clue who I'm referring to when I say professional trainer. But make no mistake it is no your local pet store "trainer". It's not some bum that woke up one day and decided to train animals. He's got 20 years of experience. Everything from basic obedience, bite work, personal protection, security, law enforcement, etc. I call him my own dog whisperer. After talking to him for 10 mins its painfully clear that he knows exactly what he's doing. Bottom line, there are other ways to train a dog. It doesn't have to always be rainbows and sing along songs to have a well trained dog.
> 
> Some of you remind me of parents that think every kid should get a ribbon so they don't feel like the fat/dumb kid on the team.
> 
> There are other approaches. Just because they dog mirror yours doesn't mean it's wrong or harmful.


LOL!!! Come try to roll or dominate my boy. He brings the fight. It's not about sucking up to your pup. It's about TEACHING. Some dogs you can ruin this way. Your 'trainer' won't have to live with the outcome. Some dogs you won't ruin, but you won't like the response. My guy doesn't back down. Period.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think there is validity to all sides of this discussion. Unfortunately, there are many different levels of puppy nerve strength these days. Some people are breeding pups that are very compliant and the level of "lands sharking" is very easy to redirect or treat itself away. I have seen other 8week pups that are very determined to push their agenda and often some of these same methods in pet hands can lead to a puppy not respecting what is being attempted. Often this leads to me being called at 5 months cause the dog has continued. 
The other point is all offenses by a puppy are not the same. I get a 8 week puppy about every 10 months, they all come in as land sharks. I use treats and I redirect and I play tug games, BUT within two days these pups have learned they cannot bite me....period! Other annoying things they do I am more apt to use more redirection or treaties. The point is I view biting me as something to not take the long around the barn method of stopping, and it doesn't affect their demeanor or have lingering effects or none of that junk. Biting me and growling at me are behaviors that should be addressed immediately, IMO, and I am not saying that any method is right or wrong.....but the method cannot let the dog continue to do it with the dog operating on their terms until it sinks in....the behavior is much too serious. Other behaviors I take different approaches on how soon I want to see compliance and thus may use a variety of ways.
I think you all have good points depending on the dog and the method being compatible....one size does not fit all in training or behavior modification.jmo


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

jlbjab08 said:


> It's ok to demand respect from your dog. You do not want a large dog thinking he owns you.


Think there is nothing actually wrong with that statement about an ADULT dog.

But for a tiny 8 week old puppy (be like a 1 yr old baby) the idea of 'demanding respect' is a bit out of their ability ( well, more than a bit :wild: )

Specially because all the 'aggressive' behavior we see from such a young puppy is NOT aggression so not showing a *lack* of respect.

Puppies just know how to poop/pee/eat/sleep and PLAY! So we get to TEACH them the way to do all of that to fit into our lives. We teach them where to pee/poo. We teach them when it's mealtime. And we have to teach them how to PLAY with our delicate blossom human skin!

Also...for the OP who started this, such great news you are going to a puppy class! So much easier to get an idea of how our pups should be progressing and what's normal (and how smart OUR pup is  ) in a class with an instructor. 

It's amazing how much a young puppy CAN learn, but only with teeny brief lessons that are always fun and positive. Because the MOST important thing to teach a puppy is that listening and learning to humans is the best thing EVER!

More wonderful infor on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ime-owner/162230-engagement-key-training.html

and click ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-time-owner/165774-gsd-puppy-primer-tips.html

This was also something I agree with:



onyx'girl said:


> ............... *but an 8 week old puppy is just a baby. I'd rather keep that confidence high, it can always be squelched later (if necessary)...it is much harder to rebuild it if you've knocked it out early on.*
> 
> Different techniques are great, open mind is wonderful. Consistency is key.
> 
> And we all know that saying....what do trainers agree on? The other one is wrong


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you all have good points depending on the dog and the method being compatible....one size does not fit all in training or behavior modification.jmo


I think that is a very good point. A person who has more experiance with training dogs (such as Cliff) can quickly determine the training method that would benefit the individual dog (pup). But where the ground gets soft is where a person with less experiance uses harsher methods of training on a pup that would benefit more from re-direction then from 'alpha' rolling.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lilie said:


> I think that is a very good point. A person who has more experiance with training dogs (such as Cliff) can quickly determine the training method that would benefit the individual dog (pup). *But where the ground gets soft is where a person with less experiance uses harsher methods of training on a pup that would benefit more from re-direction then from 'alpha' rolling*.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 

I'm on dog #4, 3 of those GSD's and I only ever Alpha rolled my FIRST puppy and she was a yellow Lab!

But that was almost 20 yrs ago, the first puppy I raised, and I didn't know any better but the 'alpha' thing was very popular in the Olden Days Of Dog Training. Now that I know better, I do better, and my 8 week old puppies do NOT get alpha rolls when they are playing with me.


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

Very interesting posts, I can tell that I am going to learn a lot from this forum, especially with regard to the GSD. I do feel that being rough with a puppy of 8 weeks isn't a good idea, as long as they grow out of it. They are too willful, and in their tiny little minds, they are only playing, I truly believe that they don't understand what they are doing and how much their biting and nipping is hurting the other person, we have to teach them. If they continue to bite and nip when they grow a older, then it is a concern and should be addressed. 

I do not judge others in the way that they choose to train their dog, as long as the dog isn't hurt in any way. As for me, I choose to train with positive reinforcements and redirecting. I do not want my puppy to ever be afraid of me. I want her to enjoy being around me. I did this with my Lab Cocoa and he turned out to be a wonderful companion, who loved me and looked forward to us doing things together.

Again, I want to thank all of you for your warm heartfelt wishes for Cocoa.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Linda1270 said:


> Very interesting posts, I can tell that I am going to learn a lot from this forum, especially with regard to the GSD. I do feel that being rough with a puppy of 8 weeks isn't a good idea, as long as they grow out of it. They are too willful, and in their tiny little minds, they are only playing, I truly believe that they don't understand what they are doing and how much their biting and nipping is hurting the other person, we have to teach them. If they continue to bite and nip when they grow a older, then it is a concern and should be addressed.
> 
> I do not judge others in the way that they choose to train their dog, as long as the dog isn't hurt in any way. As for me, I choose to train with positive reinforcements and redirecting. I do not want my puppy to ever be afraid of me. I want her to enjoy being around me. I did this with my Lab Cocoa and he turned out to be a wonderful companion, who loved me and looked forward to us doing things together.
> 
> Again, I want to thank all of you for your warm heartfelt wishes for Cocoa.


What a great post ! Welcome to the forum and can't wait to have more posts as your puppy matures!

:thumbup:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I thought I made it clear that for BITING me I stop it immediately, because it has no useful purpose for the dog or me. But what about the pet owners that don't know that these methods aren't working and now the pup is 5 months old and we are in the training forum with aggression issues....sound familiar? 
Maggie, I understand your point thoroughly, that's why I don't focus on the method with my advice....I focus on the result......anyway, people using methods that aren't working, especially with aggression.....keeps me in business....lol.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I think there is validity to all sides of this discussion. Unfortunately, there are many different levels of puppy nerve strength these days. Some people are breeding pups that are very compliant and the level of "lands sharking" is very easy to redirect or treat itself away. I have seen other 8week pups that are very determined to push their agenda and often some of these same methods in pet hands can lead to a puppy not respecting what is being attempted. Often this leads to me being called at 5 months cause the dog has continued.
> The other point is all offenses by a puppy are not the same. I get a 8 week puppy about every 10 months, they all come in as land sharks. I use treats and I redirect and I play tug games, BUT within two days these pups have learned they cannot bite me....period! Other annoying things they do I am more apt to use more redirection or treaties. The point is I view biting me as something to not take the long around the barn method of stopping, and it doesn't affect their demeanor or have lingering effects or none of that junk. Biting me and growling at me are behaviors that should be addressed immediately, IMO, and I am not saying that any method is right or wrong.....but the method cannot let the dog continue to do it with the dog operating on their terms until it sinks in....the behavior is much too serious. Other behaviors I take different approaches on how soon I want to see compliance and thus may use a variety of ways.
> I think you all have good points depending on the dog and the method being compatible....one size does not fit all in training or behavior modification.jmo


good post!!!

but, you're just a trainer. what do YOU know?!?!?! lololol

vet and trainers know nothing. come to the GSD boards where the gods of gsd's reside. 

why is everyone talking about an 8 week old puppy? did i not mention that my pup is 12 weeks old (3 months on the 24th)? thought i did. if not, my bad. 

my trainer did not start instructing me to start scruffing or holding him down until this past sunday and i already see HUGE improvments. my trainer said exactly what cliff has. biting me or the rest of the pack is ABSOLUTELY not acceptable and it gets corrected immediately at this age. i can sit on the floor now with him safely. he OCCASIONALLY forgets and immediately gets corrected. 

when your kid acts up do you buy him new toys or give him snacks? no, you discipline them. at least i would hope so unless you're one of these parents contributing to the deliquency of the kids today. 

again, scruffing is reserved STRICTLY for biting the pack. and dogs and wolves do infact do that to their young. maybe not domesticated mothers that rely on their owner to care for their young but in the wild, these animals absolutely scruff their young. and the fact that they are playing now does not change anything. i know that he's just playing, but in 9 months when he's 70lbs and is still biting then you have a MAJOR problem. try scruffing or holding down a dog that size. we dont own yorkies. these dogs need to be taught very early to respect the pack. period. 

bottom line, there are different methods, but i get the feeling that a majority of the posters here would frown upon scruffing or holding a dog down and thats ridiculous.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> bottom line, there are different methods, but i get the feeling that a majority of the posters here would frown upon scruffing or holding a dog down and thats ridiculous.


Your TRAINER is providing advice to you. Your TRAINER works with your pup. My posts have been directed to the OP who isn't working with a TRAINER yet. 

We both have trainers with different methods. You scruff or force it into a submissive position to stop it from bitting you. That works for you. 

I train my pup(s) to stop bitting me, that works for me. 

I'm failing to see the ridiculous part.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Linda1270 said:


> If they continue to bite and nip when they grow a older, then it is a concern and should be addressed.
> 
> .


 the problem becomes their size and the amount of time they've gone thinking that what they've always done is fine. why not instill the behavior early instead of playing wait and see and having a giant dog with an overactive mouth?

again, i'm sure the submissive approach works sometimes but i wouldn't want to be part of the group that isn't so successful.

my trainer uses NO violence. scruffing is not violence and it's not abuse. its reserved only for things that are absolutely unacceptable.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Your TRAINER is providing advice to you. Your TRAINER works with your pup. My posts have been directed to the OP who isn't working with a TRAINER yet.
> 
> We both have trainers with different methods. You scruff or force it into a submissive position to stop it from bitting you. That works for you.
> 
> ...


i said it'd ridiculous to frown upon people that choose to follow the scruffing method. yes, THAT would be ridiculous. and i KNOW there are people that do.


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## Caragirl (Sep 2, 2008)

Our puppy is a male from working lines. He is five and a half months old. As a baby he would nip and jump, and redirecting worked most of the time for him. Unfortunately, the other times he would escalate his behavior. So we have a trainer working with us. She has suggested that we walk away and separate ourselves for a few seconds the minute he starts the biting and cannot be redirected. Then we are to return, see if he is calmed down and go back out of sight and reach if he is still amped up. Scruffing this dog would just increase his drive and escalate the bites. At five months his teeth are much bigger and hurt a lot more. I cannot imagine a full grown GSD using his teeth on us. It is definitely a lot of work with some stubborn dogs, but I would rather spend the time now than risk a major incident later on. Good luck!


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Caragirl said:


> Our puppy is a male from working lines. He is five and a half months old. As a baby he would nip and jump, and redirecting worked most of the time for him. Unfortunately, the other times he would escalate his behavior. So we have a trainer working with us. She has suggested that we walk away and separate ourselves for a few seconds the minute he starts the biting and cannot be redirected. Then we are to return, see if he is calmed down and go back out of sight and reach if he is still amped up. Scruffing this dog would just increase his drive and escalate the bites. At five months his teeth are much bigger and hurt a lot more. I cannot imagine a full grown GSD using his teeth on us. It is definitely a lot of work with some stubborn dogs, but I would rather spend the time now than risk a major incident later on. Good luck!


Hopefully that works out well for you! All dogs certainly are different. 

Your situation is exactly why the behavior has to be stopped immediately. Not redirected for a little while, not distracted. Stopped. Completely. You don't want to have to wrestle with a much larger and smarter dog. I feel with the more submissive approach you run the risk of the dog doing what it wants anyway. Establishing strict, zero tolerance boundaries is fail proof. Again, it's not abuse. The puppy is not going to suffer psychological effects. I never do it for anything other than biting us. Chewing carpet, getting into something, stealing a shoe, that gets replaced with a toy. Not biting the pack. And I don't do what I do to dominate the dog. Simply to establish that biting is simply not allowed and won't be tolerated. People have to stop treating their animals like snow flakes.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> Hopefully that works out well for you! All dogs certainly are different.
> 
> Your situation is exactly why the behavior has to be stopped immediately. Not redirected for a little while, not distracted. Stopped. Completely. You don't want to have to wrestle with a much larger and smarter dog. I feel with the more submissive approach you run the risk of the dog doing what it wants anyway. Establishing strict, zero tolerance boundaries is fail proof. Again, it's not abuse. The puppy is not going to suffer psychological effects. I never do it for anything other than biting us. Chewing carpet, getting into something, stealing a shoe, that gets replaced with a toy. Not biting the pack. And I don't do what I do to dominate the dog. Simply to establish that biting is simply not allowed and won't be tolerated. People have to stop treating their animals like snow flakes.


I agree! She should use a Prong and an e-collar on her 5 month old puppy too! Hey! At the same time! Speed up the process! Why spend needless money following her instructor's advice? It's working too slowly for her! Imediate gradification! It's ALL about us! Certainly not snowflake!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm going to suggest something off the wall, but it works for me: teach the puppy to have a soft bite. The tiny puppy teeth are sharp, but once the adult teeth come in it's not a problem at all. I firmly believe that the mouthing is adding to our bond, and this isn't the first puppy that I've taught this to, so I know that as an adult it doesn't create problems.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I agree! She should use a Prong and an e-collar on her 5 month old puppy too! Hey! At the same time! Speed up the process! Why spend needless money following her instructor's advice? It's working too slowly for her! Imediate gradification! It's ALL about us! Certainly not snowflake!


I've been letting my pup walk around with a pinch collar. Just to get used to it so he doesn't associate it with anything bad. It's just another piece of jewelry. Granted, my dog will be doing a 12 month protection course after obedience. So my goals are different concerning the pinch collar. I just don't agree with the logic of walking away from a dog that's biting you. You're telling the dog that he won. He can bite you to make you leave. Youve submitted to him. He controls your actions. if you don't establish respect for the pack, the dog will run the show. That's scary to me. I don't understand why people think its so bad to establish an alpha or leader role. I am the leader. It's my house and the dog is mine not the other way around. The dog does need to know where he exists in the house and its not at the top. Again, these aren't toy poodles. They're very large dogs and if they think they can mount you then they will. My job is to make sure at a very young age that its not even an OPTION


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Walking away is very distubing, it's abandonment. Puppies don't want to be walked away from so it works. Whoever told you that it's teaching the puppy how to control you is full of beans.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> I've been letting my pup walk around with a pinch collar. Just to get used to it so he doesn't associate it with anything bad. It's just another piece of jewelry. Granted, my dog will be doing a 12 month protection course after obedience. So my goals are different concerning the pinch collar. I just don't agree with the logic of walking away from a dog that's biting you. You're telling the dog that he won. He can bite you to make you leave. Youve submitted to him. He controls your actions. if you don't establish respect for the pack, the dog will run the show. That's scary to me. I don't understand why people think its so bad to establish an alpha or leader role. I am the leader. It's my house and the dog is mine not the other way around. The dog does need to know where he exists in the house and its not at the top. Again, these aren't toy poodles. They're very large dogs and if they think they can mount you then they will. My job is to make sure at a very young age that its not even an OPTION


I have to disagree that I'm submitting to my dog by walking away from her when she was in her mouthy stage. Yelping, anything physical etc did nothing but ramp up her drive and make her come on stronger, walking away as others say is a negative punishment not submitting. She's lost your attention, her playmate and now she's alone, there's nothing winning there. 

I used this method for two months, also taught her a soft bite and now she's only mouthy when we wrestle but I didn't feel that I have to dominate my dog in order for her to respect me. But we have different views there, I don't want to be a dominate leader, I want to establish the strongest bond possible between the two of us so she's a willing partner when we work.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> Walking away is very distubing, it's abandonment. Puppies don't want to be walked away from so it works. Whoever told you that it's teaching the puppy how to control you is full of beans.


Oh so abandonment is good. Scruffing the neck is bad. Makes total sense. Lol


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

gaia_bear said:


> I have to disagree that I'm submitting to my dog by walking away from her when she was in her mouthy stage. Yelping, anything physical etc did nothing but ramp up her drive and make her come on stronger, walking away as others say is a negative punishment not submitting. She's lost your attention, her playmate and now she's alone, there's nothing winning there.
> 
> I used this method for two months, also taught her a soft bite and now she's only mouthy when we wrestle but I didn't feel that I have to dominate my dog in order for her to respect me. But we have different views there, I don't want to be a dominate leader, I want to establish the strongest bond possible between the two of us so she's a willing partner when we work.


If I walked away from my puppy when he's biting me he'd just chase me down and bite me. How does that help?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> Oh so abandonment is good. Scruffing the neck is bad. Makes total sense. Lol


Now you've lost me. Are you admitting that walking away might teach the puppy something after all, besides control?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> If I walked away from my puppy when he's biting me he'd just chase me down and bite me. How does that help?


Closing a door is always an option. I'm in control here, not her. I can choose how I'm going to seperate us.

I was just making a point that it's not a submissive behavior, every dog requires different training. What is working for you would not work for me, I'm not saying it's wrong just different strokes for different folks


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I thought I made it clear that for BITING me I stop it immediately, because it has no useful purpose for the dog or me. But what about the pet owners that don't know that these methods aren't working and now the pup is 5 months old and we are in the training forum with aggression issues....sound familiar?
> Maggie, I understand your point thoroughly, that's why I don't focus on the method with my advice....I focus on the result......anyway, people using methods that aren't working, especially with aggression.....keeps me in business....lol.


I agree with you 100%. I will be completely honest here. I'm on my 4th GSD pup. I have NEVER been totally unable to even put a dent in puppy landsharking before. My guy is a TERROR! I didn't get him at 8 weeks, though. By the time I was at the "uncle" point, he was 12 or 13 weeks. Redirection did NOT work. Standing up did NOT work. (I have scabs all over my ankles) Every training method I've ever used failed. There is ZERO chance of breaking my guy's confidence, but that may have been different at a younger age, I don't know. When I finally decided that we were going to go another route, it was a hard decision. I finally grabbed him by the scruff (not hard, but seriously) and told him "no bite!" Want to know what his reaction was? He growled, barked, and came back at me 10 times harder!!  He will intermittently mouth softer...which is OK with me. However, when he's wound up... different story. Last night, we had a 'showdown'. He did the same thing as before, so did I. I finally, though, REALLY raised my voice at him. The look on his face was priceless. I SWEAR he looked at me as if to say "Really?? OK, whatever" and trotted off.  
I would NEVER recommend someone do this with their pup. First, most people have younger pups and second most people do NOT have pups like mine. I am not frustrated or angry with my guy. I love him to pieces. I also like what I see in him. He's exactly what I wanted and asked for. A super hard dog. He brings the fight. Seriously. I turned to someone who KNOWS these dogs (as well as my breeder) to get a clue as to how to handle it because he's not WGWL or WGSL. Some of the ways I raise Grim are totally different than any way I've ever raised another dog. This is a dog that without a clear line of right and wrong... without clear direction, leadership, and understanding that NOT following commands is simply NOT AN OPTION would be your worst nightmare. Most young pups do not need this type of leader. Again, I waited for about a month of intense bonding to begin this. I HAVE to demand that he listen to me. I've never had to worry about that in a pup before. However, this guy is mature in ways that no other pup I've had has ever been. He is genetically wired this way... and with a soft handler he'd be seeing Cliff (or someone like him) in no time. This is EXACTLY the type of dog that Cliff is referring to. So while I don't agree with the 'dominate your dog across the board', I feel it's important to KNOW your dog. There ARE some pups out there (granted, probably not a lot, but some) who you simply cannot use a 'purely positive' training method with. Jumping to alpha rolling, etc. off the start is also a bad idea. If you aren't totally bonded with your pup, you do not even want to deal with the possible outcome of coming down on a pup like mine. JMO


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> Now you've lost me. Are you admitting that walking away might teach the puppy something after all, besides control?


What? 

No. I'm saying that I'm being told that scruffing is bad for a puppy because it ruins him or something ridiculous like that. But somehow abandoning a puppy sounds like a good idea? Does not compute.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

gaia_bear said:


> Closing a door is always an option. I'm in control here, not her. I can choose how I'm going to seperate us.
> 
> I was just making a point that it's not a submissive behavior, every dog requires different training. What is working for you would not work for me, I'm not saying it's wrong just different strokes for different folks


So leave an unsupervised puppy alone in a room? How many people just have an empty room laying around that the dog can't hurt himself in?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> So leave an unsupervised puppy alone in a room? How many people just have an empty room laying around that the dog can't hurt himself in?


I did all the time, 10 seconds isn't that long to be left alone. My house is puppyproofed if she can get into something that quick me being there will not make a difference.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Jag said:


> I agree with you 100%. I will be completely honest here. I'm on my 4th GSD pup. I have NEVER been totally unable to even put a dent in puppy landsharking before. My guy is a TERROR! I didn't get him at 8 weeks, though. By the time I was at the "uncle" point, he was 12 or 13 weeks. Redirection did NOT work. Standing up did NOT work. (I have scabs all over my ankles) Every training method I've ever used failed. There is ZERO chance of breaking my guy's confidence, but that may have been different at a younger age, I don't know. When I finally decided that we were going to go another route, it was a hard decision. I finally grabbed him by the scruff (not hard, but seriously) and told him "no bite!" Want to know what his reaction was? He growled, barked, and came back at me 10 times harder!!  He will intermittently mouth softer...which is OK with me. However, when he's wound up... different story. Last night, we had a 'showdown'. He did the same thing as before, so did I. I finally, though, REALLY raised my voice at him. The look on his face was priceless. I SWEAR he looked at me as if to say "Really?? OK, whatever" and trotted off.
> I would NEVER recommend someone do this with their pup. First, most people have younger pups and second most people do NOT have pups like mine. I am not frustrated or angry with my guy. I love him to pieces. I also like what I see in him. He's exactly what I wanted and asked for. A super hard dog. He brings the fight. Seriously. I turned to someone who KNOWS these dogs (as well as my breeder) to get a clue as to how to handle it because he's not WGWL or WGSL. Some of the ways I raise Grim are totally different than any way I've ever raised another dog. This is a dog that without a clear line of right and wrong... without clear direction, leadership, and understanding that NOT following commands is simply NOT AN OPTION would be your worst nightmare. Most young pups do not need this type of leader. Again, I waited for about a month of intense bonding to begin this. I HAVE to demand that he listen to me. I've never had to worry about that in a pup before. However, this guy is mature in ways that no other pup I've had has ever been. He is genetically wired this way... and with a soft handler he'd be seeing Cliff (or someone like him) in no time. This is EXACTLY the type of dog that Cliff is referring to. So while I don't agree with the 'dominate your dog across the board', I feel it's important to KNOW your dog. There ARE some pups out there (granted, probably not a lot, but some) who you simply cannot use a 'purely positive' training method with. Jumping to alpha rolling, etc. off the start is also a bad idea. If you aren't totally bonded with your pup, you do not even want to deal with the possible outcome of coming down on a pup like mine. JMO


Great post! I'm in your boat. We did no scruffing or holding down til Sunday. He's 12 weeks. 

And my dog has loads of confidence. There's no breaking his spirit. Not even a week later and most times a stern no will direct him away if I even think that HE is thinking about mouthing me. And if he does make it to me it's very soft. As if he's thinking to himself. You're right. It's not uniform across the board. But most people will treat you like an animal abuser of they find out you scruff or pin your dog or use a pinch collar. It's judgemental and silly.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I will give you a little heads up. IMO, if you really do have a dog like mine.... you may want to forgo using a pinch for any correction. I honestly plan to use an agitation harness with a pinch for back up. He has an incredibly high tolerance AND *could* be one of those dogs that 'come up the leash'. So just a small piece of advice. I am planning on not introducing a pinch unless I absolutely have to. What line is your dog? I do not 'alpha roll', either. He will willingly show me his belly for rubs and scratches....so I see no point in that. He's not being dominant with his biting, either. He's simply not listening. He's stubborn. Something that could go very, very bad in a few short months. However, he's a very biddable dog for everything else (thankfully!) so until that bulb clicks on in several months to maybe challenge what I want him to do, I'm working furiously to teach and keep this guy wanting to work. BIG rewards!


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## Caragirl (Sep 2, 2008)

Five seconds of alone time is not abandonment. A dog is not a human baby. My dog stops then sits, waiting for me for those few seconds. It certainly does not injure the dog. He learns that all fun stops when he bites.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> What?
> 
> No. I'm saying that I'm being told that scruffing is bad for a puppy because it ruins him or something ridiculous like that. But somehow abandoning a puppy sounds like a good idea? Does not compute.


You aren't abandoning your puppy, you're taking advantage of it's natural inclination to be with it's pack. By walking away, you are *not* telling the puppy that it can control you. Do you see the difference? That was the point I was trying to make. It has nothing to do with your belief that scruffing is a good idea.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Caragirl said:


> Five seconds of alone time is not abandonment. A dog is not a human baby. My dog stops then sits, waiting for me for those few seconds. It certainly does not injure the dog. He learns that all fun stops when he bites.


Which is great! I've used this in the past with success. However, do you know where Grim is when I stand up to 'walk away'? Attached to my ankle.  I firmly believe that 99% of pups will respond to consistent redirection and/or stopping the play and walking away. However.... I have a 1%. (Did I really just say that, LOL?)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> You aren't abandoning your puppy, you're taking advantage of it's natural inclination to be with it's pack. By walking away, you are *not* telling the puppy that it can control you. Do you see the difference? That was the point I was trying to make. It has nothing to do with your belief that scruffing is a good idea.


This is 100% true! I think that this pup that's being 'dominated' has some wrong ideas about this. I do not think the landsharking is about dominance to the pup at all. It's play. However, there are some pups that don't respond to the 'kindler gentler' options.... BUT... it's still not dominance. What you're seeing in your pup is a very strong will and blowing off what you want to get what he wants. That's not abnormal in pups, either. I went through weeks of being chewed up badly because I wanted to get to know my guy and establish a firm bond. You can get a really good bond by playing with your pup. You've got to take some bites to get there. This may sound like I'm playing both sides, but I'm not. It's simply about what kind of pup you have...which the average joe that posts here about the biting doesn't really know. Which is why advising people to go the "harder route" isn't a good idea.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Jag said:


> I will give you a little heads up. IMO, if you really do have a dog like mine.... you may want to forgo using a pinch for any correction. I honestly plan to use an agitation harness with a pinch for back up. He has an incredibly high tolerance AND *could* be one of those dogs that 'come up the leash'. So just a small piece of advice. I am planning on not introducing a pinch unless I absolutely have to. What line is your dog? I do not 'alpha roll', either. He will willingly show me his belly for rubs and scratches....so I see no point in that. He's not being dominant with his biting, either. He's simply not listening. He's stubborn. Something that could go very, very bad in a few short months. However, he's a very biddable dog for everything else (thankfully!) so until that bulb clicks on in several months to maybe challenge what I want him to do, I'm working furiously to teach and keep this guy wanting to work. BIG rewards!


Well I just meant that we are in the same boat as far as approach. I am not USING the collar right now. Just getting him used to it around his neck. And this is per my trainer. This course is $3700 and I've seen several of the dogs he has trained. I'm pleased with them and I'm more than please with what he has done with us so far. He knows what he's doing. No doubt about it. And I don't roll him. He's on his side. I hold his scruff on the backside and hold his neck and jaw so he can't bite me. I do this until he's completely done fighting me with no tension or resistance. It's not hurting him. It's teaching him. Just not with balloon animals. 

Blanket- you're the one that called it abandonment. Check it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> And I don't roll him. He's on his side. I hold his scruff on the backside and hold his neck and jaw so he can't bite me.


Curious, do you think "Alpha Roll" means to roll your dog around?


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Curious, do you think "Alpha Roll" means to roll your dog around?


The guy I quoted mentioned alpha role and proceeded to talk about the dog showing his belly. Just clarifying.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> Blanket- you're the one that called it abandonment. Check it.


Yes I did, and I'm sorry that I didn't spell it out for you in my original post, but I disagree with your theory that walking away from a puppy teaches it that it can control you. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to quote my posts if you don't want to address me, but rather use my words to mock what others are saying to you about your chosen training method. :crazy:


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> Yes I did, and I'm sorry that I didn't spell it out for you in my original post, but I disagree with your theory that walking away from a puppy teaches it that it can control you. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to quote my posts if you don't want to address me, but rather use my words to mock what others are saying to you about your chosen training method. :crazy:


Uh what? I did address you. Nevermind. You're giving me a headache


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jlbjab08 said:


> good post!!!
> 
> but, you're just a trainer. what do YOU know?!?!?! lololol
> 
> ...


I am a bit blunt sometimes, but this needs to be said, 

THE REASON WE ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT AN 8 WEEK OLD PUPPY IS BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL POSTER HAS AN 8 WEEK OLD PUPPY. 

Ok, done shouting. You have a 12 week old puppy. There is a huge difference, BUT, you really need to know that the vast majority of puppies CAN BE managed with redirecting or removing the fingers from the line of fire, etc. These methods will not cause any problems for their owner, especially if the pup is 4 weeks younger than yours. 

My five month olds still mouth my hands, I just tell them gentle and they all are more careful. There is no growling associated, and there are more than one of them, so it is not like I am focussing all of my attention on one little shark. 

Walking away, redirecting, removing the fingers from the line of fire, is very different from scruffing or alpha rolling. Some puppies might see that behavior as playing. Puppies do a lot of play fighting, and they will try to push their weight around if you engage them like that. 

I understand pack order. There is some validity to it when working with multiple dogs. But I am not a dog. I do not try to be the alpha-dog, or alpha-bitch. Sorry, my dogs are smarter than that. I do not use methods that drag me down to the level of a dog. That is insane. It is also based on erroneous comprehension of pack behavior. A pack leader is not the biggest and baddest, constantly fighting against all comers to keep his position -- that is a very weak pack leader. A pack leader is undisputable, and leads with his mind, his body language, and rarely has to even stare at an unruly subject. 

But why are we talking about dogs. I am to my dogs what God is to me. I am a whole other species/being. I love them unconditionally, quirks and all. I provide for them. I reward good behavior. I let them know what I do not want. They obey me. If they do not obey me, I still love them, but I might adjust how I respond to them or fail to respond to them (which actually works really really well), in order to get the results I want. Humans should not be squabbling with dogs. 

Your dog can respect you out of fear, or your dog can trust you and accept you as their leader/god. I choose the latter, and I know without any doubt that every single one of my dogs would never bite me. And by being a human, and treating the dogs as my dogs -- I own them, I am responsible for them, they are not furry children; well I can be myself and have a great relationship with my dogs. If I tried to be a dog, an alpha pack leader, well, most of all, it would be really hard to pull off even passably.

I guess it is human nature to think that our pup is somehow extreme. The exception to the rule, so bad, that gentler methods wouldn't work. But if you start training your pup with hard methods, then most likely that is what you will need to train him. In most cases, I think it is totally unnecessary.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> Uh what? I did address you. Nevermind. You're giving me a headache


If you state that walking away from a puppy teaches it that it can control you, and another member disagrees with you....and now you convieniently have a headache...whatever.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> the problem becomes their size and the amount of time they've gone thinking that what they've always done is fine. why not instill the behavior early instead of playing wait and see and having a giant dog with an overactive mouth?


:thinking: Well, of course! Nobody here is advocating that people let their puppy think what they're doing is fine, they ARE instilling the behavior they want early. I don't know where you're getting this "wait and see" idea until the dog is all grown up and still being mouthy. _Nobody_ is suggesting this, you're still mischaracterizing what people are saying. 



> again, i'm sure the submissive approach works sometimes but i wouldn't want to be part of the group that isn't so successful.


You keep equating normal, untrained puppy behavior as "dominance", and it's just NOT! I'm not "submitting" to my puppy biting me, I'm training him/her _not_ to. Why is that so hard to understand? I use NILIF and teach impulse control right from the very beginning, so I'm always working on establishing my leadership and teaching my puppy what behavior works and doesn't work to get him/her what it wants. 



Caragirl said:


> Our puppy is a male from working lines. He is five and a half months old. As a baby he would nip and jump, and redirecting worked most of the time for him. Unfortunately, the other times he would escalate his behavior. So we have a trainer working with us. She has suggested that we walk away and separate ourselves for a few seconds the minute he starts the biting and cannot be redirected. Then we are to return, see if he is calmed down and go back out of sight and reach if he is still amped up. *Scruffing this dog would just increase his drive and escalate the bites.*


Thank you for mentioning this Caragirl, that's exactly the risk you take with _some_ (not all, but some) puppies - getting physical with them can actually backfire and have the opposite effect of what you intended.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> People have to stop treating their animals like snow flakes.


:rofl: I'm on GSD #4 & 5, and I've owned the breed continuously since 1986. I can assure you that I've never, not ONCE, treated my animals like snowflakes, lol!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :rofl: I'm on GSD #4 & 5, and I've owned the breed continuously since 1986. I can assure you that I've never, not ONCE, treated my animals like snowflakes, lol!


I was a horse-crazy girl when I read a book, Afraid to Ride. Yes, kiddie fairy tale fiction. It was about a girl who went up on a horse that was badly broken and being made daily more crazy, and had a bad fall. Back home, she no longer wanted to ride horses. Her original trainer bought a horse that he knew from way back, a mare, that had been badly handled for years and was totally lacking in all trust. 

What got me is that he bought the horse and put it in this girl's care, not to ride but to heal. He told her that if she stroked her as though she were stroking a bird, (snowflake approach I guess), she would respond. I remembered that and maybe it is all huey, but in fact it does work. Yes, I can womp on my dogs and romp and play with them. But I can also give them very soft strokes and scritches, that they absolutely love. I mean it is better than pupperoni, always available, never distracting or attention getting wherever I am. 

So just interesting. I guess I do treat my dogs like snowflakes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> I just don't agree with the logic of walking away from a dog that's biting you. You're telling the dog that he won. He can bite you to make you leave. Youve submitted to him. He controls your actions.


Why would your dog want you to leave? If you've established a relationship with your dog, that's the last thing they would want. My dogs want to BE with me, so making me go away is something they try to avoid. I want my dogs to think that being with me is the best thing ever, and they do.

But again, we're not talking about letting an adult dog bite you and doing nothing about it but walking away. We're talking about teaching a tiny puppy how he gets to interact with you and how he doesn't get to. And actually, quite a bit of my training is about showing my dogs how to control their access to what they value. Sit and making eye contact while I set their food bowls "makes" me release them to go eat. Sit and eye contact (or a down, if that's what I ask for), "makes" me throw the ball for them. Sitting calmly when it's time to go somewhere "makes" me put the leash on. Remaining in a sit "makes" me open the door and tell them they can walk through it. A down at the park "makes" me take the leash off so they can go play. Remaining in their crates when I open the door "makes" me release them to come out, etc., etc., etc. 

Have I submitted to them? Do they control me? I don't give a hoot - they do what I want them to do, what I've _trained_ them to do! All that dominance and submission crap is just a load of, well....crap. :shrug:



> if you don't establish respect for the pack, the dog will run the show. That's scary to me. I don't understand why people think its so bad to establish an alpha or leader role.


Of course you need to establish leadership, nobody has suggested otherwise. You keep saying that people think it's bad to establish yourself as the leader, but I haven't seen a single post on this thread that says that.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Well, of course! Nobody here is advocating that people let their puppy think what they're doing is fine, they ARE instilling the behavior they want early. I don't know where you're getting this "wait and see" idea until the dog is all grown up and still being mouthy. _Nobody_ is suggesting this, you're still mischaracterizing what people are saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i never said my pup is being dominant. in fact, i flat out said that i KNOW he is playing. reading comprehension must not be very popular. 

however, i dont want it to turn INTO that. do you start teaching your children right and wrong with they're 8,9, and 10 years old? surely you don't forego teaching them right and wrong just cause "awww, he's just a toddler, you must let them misbehave and deal with discipline when they're older and set in their ways!". start young, get it out of the way so he's not practicing the behavior as a 50lb dog. 

it doesn't matter if its play or dominance. its not acceptable either way. let me guess, you doesn't spank your kids either?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"your dog can trust you out of fear.... Or trust and bond with you like your god", I am paraphrasing the quote from Selzer, but I don't see this as an either or due to methods of training. If I follow the reasoning of that quote then it is implied that compulsion based training from the past created dogs that didn't have the bond and trust and the dog respected out of fear. Bonding and trust comes from fair and correct application of the training method regardless of the types mentioned here. We all seek to have a bond and trust out of love and respect with our dogs. I know I train differently from some of you, my dog's tail is wagging while working, my dog always wants to work for me, my dog has respect for me based on fair application of interaction with me. 
You cannot take what you have done with one or two dogs or even what you have done with only the same type of dogs and then imply this is best for all pups at a certain age.....your point of reference is too small in terms of experience. You can absolutely say that in my hands this works best for me, but don't delude yourself into thinking that other approaches won't work and still develop a strong bond built on trust with your dog. 
Truthfully, I see more cases these days of a lack of trust and bond coming from out of control dogs in the hands that have read to many Internet solutions, then I have from people using too much compulsion. I am not promoting compulsion by any means, I am just saying that the problems I am running into often emanates from certain puppy behaviors that grow into problems and the owners should have dealt with it long before.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Selzer- I agree with nearly every word you said. It's RARE to have a pup that will not eventually respond to redirection, walking away, etc. Starting out with hard training is a terrible mistake. What if you have a 'soft' dog? Most people wouldn't know that at 8 weeks old. It takes awhile to get to know your pup. Longer to know what training will work and what won't. Which is why, although I ended up having to go another route, I wouldn't recommend it. For the majority of pups, it's like using an e-collar for house breaking. Also, knowing what is play and what is dominance is important. This is all play.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Why would your dog want you to leave? If you've established a relationship with your dog, that's the last thing they would want. My dogs want to BE with me, so making me go away is something they try to avoid. I want my dogs to think that being with me is the best thing ever, and they do.
> 
> But again, we're not talking about letting an adult dog bite you and doing nothing about it but walking away. We're talking about teaching a tiny puppy how he gets to interact with you and how he doesn't get to. And actually, quite a bit of my training is about showing my dogs how to control their access to what they value. Sit and making eye contact while I set their food bowls "makes" me release them to go eat. Sit and eye contact (or a down, if that's what I ask for), "makes" me throw the ball for them. Sitting calmly when it's time to go somewhere "makes" me put the leash on. Remaining in a sit "makes" me open the door and tell them they can walk through it. A down at the park "makes" me take the leash off so they can go play. Remaining in their crates when I open the door "makes" me release them to come out, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> ...


i do all of that too. the sitting before eating, sitting before playing, yadda yadda. i still maintain that biting me is not anywhere near the same ball park as all of that. its off limits. there is nothing in the world that could be more off limits than this dog biting me once he's old enough to be corrected.

again, how many people do you know with an empty room sitting around. there isn't one room in my house that my dog could be left alone in. i dont care if it was 5 seconds or half an hour. everyone says to crate train your puppy. and any time it's not in the crate keep your eyes on them evey split second. and then thats all contradicted if they bite you. cause in that case it's totally ok to let them be unsupervised. it just makes no sense. in the couple months i've been on here that seems to be the trend. constantly a contradicting method of action. i read 8294938473 different opinions and almost none of them line up. i get off of here more confused than before. and if i read giving a dog a toy/treat as a solution to something one more time i might fork my eyeballs out. just saying.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Jag said:


> Selzer- I agree with nearly every word you said. It's RARE to have a pup that will not eventually respond to redirection, walking away, etc. Starting out with hard training is a terrible mistake. What if you have a 'soft' dog? Most people wouldn't know that at 8 weeks old. It takes awhile to get to know your pup. Longer to know what training will work and what won't. Which is why, although I ended up having to go another route, I wouldn't recommend it. For the majority of pups, it's like using an e-collar for house breaking. Also, knowing what is play and what is dominance is important. This is all play.


i'd just like to go on the record and say that i didn't start correcting at 8 weeks nor do i promote it. my trainer actually told me not to tell the dog no at all the first few weeks. ( i admit i failed at that several times, its hard not to use the word no with a puppy lol). i spent several weeks learning my puppy and letting him bond to me. my husband never shuts up about how much this dog loves me and how much he is bonded to me already. i think he might actually be jealous. when i let him out of the crate he throws himself in my lap immediately and i love him to death with petting and kisses. i love this little guy more than anything. i miss him when i'm away from him. i want him to be the best dog he can possibly be. and the fact that he'll be for protection means i expect a lot from him. and he is more than capable of it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> it doesn't matter if its play or dominance. its not acceptable either way. let me guess, you doesn't spank your kids either?


Not if they don't need it. If I was down on the ground playing with my young toddler and she had a toy in her hand and was waving the toy around and clunked me on the head with it...I'd move my head. I certainly wouldn't snatch her up, yank her off her feet and put a whoopin' on her. That would teach her what? That I'm insane?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Selzer, I took your quote, but my post wasn't aimed at you specifically.....it was aimed at the thinking that certain singular methods(like positive only or compulsion only) will be best for every pup and ultimately lead to certain conclusions. We must always consider the skill and common sense of the owner, the temperament of the pup, and the severity of the issue we are trying to modify.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think I see anyone here suggesting extreme corrections, just different approaches from others....why is it so hard for people to accept that their way is not the only good way to do something


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Not if they don't need it. If I was down on the ground playing with my young toddler and she had a toy in her hand and was waving the toy around and clunked me on the head with it...I'd move my head. I certainly wouldn't snatch her up, yank her off her feet and put a whoopin' on her. That would teach her what? That I'm insane?


alright, if people are going to refuse to actually read my posts then this is a waste of time and people are aruging just to read their own posts. 

i said that biting me is the ONLY thing that gets him scruffed. if hes biting my carpet, getting into the trash, stealing a shoe then that gets distraction or replaced with a toy. do you see the difference there? yes, a child accidently hitting you with something is TOTALLY comparable. you've never smacked a kid on the hand as a correction?

but hey, way to be dramatic with suggesting that i'm implying beating a child for accidentally getting hit with something. lololol wooooowww


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> "your dog can trust you out of fear.... Or trust and bond with you like your god", I am paraphrasing the quote from Selzer, but I don't see this as an either or due to methods of training. If I follow the reasoning of that quote then it is implied that compulsion based training from the past created dogs that didn't have the bond and trust and the dog respected out of fear. Bonding and trust comes from fair and correct application of the training method regardless of the types mentioned here. We all seek to have a bond and trust out of love and respect with our dogs. I know I train differently from some of you, my dog's tail is wagging while working, my dog always wants to work for me, my dog has respect for me based on fair application of interaction with me.
> You cannot take what you have done with one or two dogs or even what you have done with only the same type of dogs and then imply this is best for all pups at a certain age.....your point of reference is too small in terms of experience. You can absolutely say that in my hands this works best for me, but don't delude yourself into thinking that other approaches won't work and still develop a strong bond built on trust with your dog.
> Truthfully, I see more cases these days of a lack of trust and bond coming from out of control dogs in the hands that have read to many Internet solutions, then I have from people using too much compulsion. I am not promoting compulsion by any means, I am just saying that the problems I am running into often emanates from certain puppy behaviors that grow into problems and the owners should have dealt with it long before.


:thumbup: I used to use a mixed bag of correction and praise. With Grim, I went with this 'purely positive' training. Terrible idea with this landshark. Just the wrong pup to try this with. Not to say I'm all about compulsion with him, not so! I stroke the little Prince's ego often... 'good boy' comes out of my mouth so often it's becoming a reflex. However, he'd be a total mess in short order without pulling in the reins on him now and again. There is so much contradiction sometimes.... like another thread where a totally normal GSD went into intense prey drive and killed a yorkie. Lots of talk about muzzles and even E-collars for a normal behavior (prey drive) that unfortunately the owner lost control of the leash. Over-reaction seems to be the way of things sometimes. All GSD's are not created equal. Sometimes you have to do things differently. You have to remove all your feelings of wanting to coddle and protect so that you can train your dog... in an effective way for THAT dog. I did NOT want to be 'harsh' with Grim. I waited years for him. However, I will post some pics later of my arms and ankles. For some dogs, it takes a sonic boom to get their attention to give direction. Not in all things, but where they are extremely stubborn. Oh, and all the dogs I've had that I used compulsion training with were VERY bonded to me. Grim is very bonded to me. I agree that where there is no leadership, there can be no bond. That leadership and direction is part of what creates that bond, no matter the training method.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't think I see anyone here suggesting extreme corrections, just different approaches from others....why is it so hard for people to accept that their way is not the only good way to do something


because they have delicate flowers for dogs! nothing but ponies and cupcakes for these guys! i can't believe people treate their GSD's like little pomeranian's. these dogs can handle a scruff. they won't hate you, i swear lol


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> alright, if people are going to refuse to actually read my posts then this is a waste of time and people are aruging just to read their own posts.
> 
> i said that biting me is the ONLY thing that gets him scruffed. if hes biting my carpet, getting into the trash, stealing a shoe then that gets distraction or replaced with a toy. do you see the difference there? yes, a child accidently hitting you with something is TOTALLY comparable. you've never smaked a kid on the hand as a correction?
> 
> but hey, what to be dramatic with suggesting that i'm implying beating a child for accidentally getting hit with something. lololol wooooowww


Hmmm. Let me try to make this a little easier to understand. A baby (child) who bops you on the head, does not do it with the intention of putting you out of your misery. The baby (child) has no real means to communicate with you yet. The baby (child) is simply playing. 

A 8 wk old puppy who bites you has no real means of communication either. It's simply PLAYING. Snatching it up and body slamming it to the ground doesn't make sense. 

I'll quit there because I don't like to compare children to puppies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Selzer, I took your quote, but my post wasn't aimed at you specifically.....it was aimed at the thinking that certain singular methods(like positive only or compulsion only) will be best for every pup and ultimately lead to certain conclusions. We must always consider the skill and common sense of the owner, the temperament of the pup, and the severity of the issue we are trying to modify.


Ok, but we ARE talking about a pup who is not quite eight weeks old here. 

I did lay it out there there are some crazy dogs out there, but I believe that the majority can respond to less compulsive methods. I suppose, I took it for granted that were were talking about them being properly applied.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

jlbjab08 said:


> i said that biting me is the ONLY thing that gets him scruffed. if hes biting my carpet, getting into the trash, stealing a shoe then that gets distraction or replaced with a toy.


This is exactly what I'm doing. The ONLY thing that gets him an actual correction is the biting. I didn't mean to imply that YOU started this at 8 weeks, just that in general IMO, it's too early. Sounds like we're both training the same way. I give out so many treats a day and so much praise that Grim should be an ego maniac.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jlbjab08 said:


> i never said my pup is being dominant. in fact, i flat out said that i KNOW he is playing. reading comprehension must not be very popular.


Well, you keep bringing up submission, don't you? If people are supposedly submitting to their puppy, it follows that the puppy is being allowed to dominate them.  If there's no dominance in the relationship, there's no submission. 



> however, i dont want it to turn INTO that. do you start teaching your children right and wrong with they're 8,9, and 10 years old? surely you don't forego teaching them right and wrong just cause "awww, he's just a toddler, you must let them misbehave and deal with discipline when they're older and set in their ways!". start young, get it out of the way so he's not practicing the behavior as a 50lb dog.
> 
> it doesn't matter if its play or dominance. its not acceptable either way. let me guess, you doesn't spank your kids either?


NOBODY wants it to turn into that. NOBODY is suggesting that you wait until your kids are 8, 9, or 10 years old to start teaching them right and wrong. NOBODY is saying that you let a toddler misbehave and then wait until they're older to work on discipline. NOBODY is suggesting that you allow your puppy to practice bad behavior, or that biting is acceptable. I just don't see where you're getting that from what people are posting. :thinking: I completely agree with you that dogs should not be allowed to practice bad behavior, so I manage their environment as much as possible to prevent it, while I teach them what I expect from them. 

BTW, I don't have kids, I have dogs and cats. 



jlbjab08 said:


> there is nothing in the world that could be more off limits than this dog biting me once he's old enough to be corrected.
> 
> again, how many people do you know with an empty room sitting around. there isn't one room in my house that my dog could be left alone in. i dont care if it was 5 seconds or half an hour. everyone says to crate train your puppy. and any time it's not in the crate keep your eyes on them evey split second. and then thats all contradicted if they bite you. cause in that case it's totally ok to let them be unsupervised.


My dogs don't get to bite me when they're old enough to be corrected either - and they don't, because I've trained them not. You don't need an empty room, all you need is an empty crate, and a full room works too. I'm not contradicting anyone, I never said I leave my dogs unsupervised for any length of time. With Cassidy all it took was 30 seconds to a minute. She was a horrific chewer, so anything longer than that was NOT a good idea! And she was an older puppy, 20 weeks old when we got her, so I would walk out of the room and shut the door behind me, leaving her alone for a few seconds - whatever room we were in at the time. 

With a young puppy they'd get a couple chances to play nice, say a three strikes and you're out kind of thing, and then in the crate they'd go for a brief timeout, maybe 5 minutes. If they came out of the crate and played nicely, play continued. If they came back at me, they'd go in the crate again, this time for longer. Usually puppy would end up taking a little nap and come out subdued a half hour or so later. I even put it on cue, if I say "that's it, timeout!" to my dogs now, they run to their crates and wait for me to close the door. I rarely do that anymore now that they're 7 and almost 4, but sometimes they get all wound up and just won't calm down. So I ask "do you want a timeout?" That's usually sufficient. 

Removal of attention can be extremely effective if your dog values your attention above all else.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Hmmm. Let me try to make this a little easier to understand. A baby (child) who bops you on the head, does not do it with the intention of putting you out of your misery. The baby (child) has no real means to communicate with you yet. The baby (child) is simply playing.
> 
> A 8 wk old puppy who bites you has no real means of communication either. It's simply PLAYING. Snatching it up and body slamming it to the ground doesn't make sense.
> 
> I'll quit there because I don't like to compare children to puppies.


body slamming, really? c'mon now.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How about we all agree that there's multiple ways to raise a puppy*, and that the end results will be what we want out of it? For instance, I let my puppy bite me, and one of the first things I teach it is, "No" and this is the exact opposite of what jlbjab08's trainer has advised. Who's right? me, of course, lol. JK.

Lots of us here are old enough to have raised GSDs with compulsion, because that's all we knew at the time. The fact that we have wonderful dogs and have tweaked our training methods says something.

* nobody has said to get physical with an 8 week old puppy


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

In case anyone has gotten the wrong idea, I'm not a "purely positive" trainer. I am not anti-compulsion, and I do use aversives. But I will say that I am biased towards motivational training to the extent that it's possible with the dog I'm working with. If I can find a way to make my dog WANT to obey, I will always choose that route first. That does NOT mean, however, that I never MAKE my dogs obey.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> With a young puppy they'd get a couple chances to play nice, say a three strikes and you're out kind of thing, and then in the crate they'd go for a brief timeout, maybe 5 minutes. If they came out of the crate and played nicely, play continued. If they came back at me, they'd go in the crate again, this time for longer. Usually puppy would end up taking a little nap and come out subdued a half hour or so later. I even put it on cue, if I say "that's it, timeout!" to my dogs now, they run to their crates and wait for me to close the door. I rarely do that anymore now that they're 7 and almost 4, but sometimes they get all wound up and just won't calm down. So I ask "do you want a timeout?" That's usually sufficient.
> 
> Removal of attention can be extremely effective if your dog values your attention above all else.


and there it goes. another contradiction. don't use the crate for timeout or they will associate it with something bad and learn to not like their crate. so now i am using it as punishment?

yeah, i definitely feel a scruff to the neck is an immediate response for his bad behavior is appropriate, and it is bad whether is puppy play or not. its bad. 

if my 2yr old continued to smear their crap all over my walls after being told not to several times you bet they'd get a spanking. that's just an example. my kids never did that. i have the best behaved 14 and 7 year old boys you'll ever meet. and thats not my opinions. i'm always told how well behaved they are. probably because they get spanked when they act like fools. something that apparently disappeard with the 60's.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Debbie, I almost envy you, LOL!!  I fondly remember my previous GSDs who responded so well to all of that!  I tried crating Grim for the biting. What comes back out is NOT what went in, I swear, LOL!! It's like he drank a red bull while in there.  There aren't a lot of times when I have to reach out and yell "help!" but this guy has had me there a couple times already. For a 'slow to mature' dog, he's the most stubborn dog I've ever encountered about some things! What's really odd is that he's, in general, an extremely happy camper who is very biddable. Until he digs in his heels. Removing my arm from his mouth and offering a toy gets me a response of barking and lunging back at my arm. Standing up gets me him attached to my ankle... walking away is nearly impossible because he's attached to me or right under my feet, LOL! He's a lovable little maniac, but honestly all of the mentioned methods of training failed miserably with him. :crazy:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> In case anyone has gotten the wrong idea, I'm not a "purely positive" trainer. I am not anti-compulsion, and I do use aversives. But I will say that I am biased towards motivational training to the extent that it's possible with the dog I'm working with. If I can find a way to make my dog WANT to obey, I will always choose that route first. That does NOT mean, however, that I never MAKE my dogs obey.


There is nothing that compares to the rewarding feeling you get when you acheive the wanted behavior from your puppy because your puppy WANTS to comply, not because it fears creating the wrong behavior.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Cool Selzer, cause I don't disagree with your approach for many of our breed....all these methods have some validity or they would become extinct from ineffectiveness.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yep, there are certainly people who think you should never use a crate for timeouts, but I'm not one of them. In my experience (I've done it with my two current and two previous dogs, so that's 12 years), it has never created a bad association with the crate. Not once. 

Although my dogs are adults, they still sleep in their crates at night in our bedroom, and most of the time they're already in there when I come in to close their doors. Sometimes Halo is on the bed, but I don't even need to tell her to get off, she'll jump down and go in her crate on her own.

She will occasionally put herself to bed in her crate for a nap after breakfast, and Keefer likes to go in his crate when I'm in the bedroom using my Lifecycle. He also goes in there to escape from Halo when she's being an annoying little snot, lol! Both of them love their crates. 

I have a soft travel crate for Halo at flyball tournaments and she's one of the few dogs who remain there quietly until I take her out to race. Most of the other dogs need hard crates because they'd break out of a soft crate, and they're barking their heads off and going crazy.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> There is nothing that compares to the rewarding feeling you get when you acheive the wanted behavior from your puppy because your puppy WANTS to comply, not because it fears creating the wrong behavior.


what makes you think they're afraid. my dog is in no way shape or form afraid of me after scruffing. he'll bark at me a few times trying to get me to back down. i make him retreat and he's fine. he looks for a toy to chew on. great success! he's not afraid of me. he just knows that when he gets scruffed he's done something wrong and doesn't want to get scruffed again. big deal. same thing as your dog not wanting to be left alone. there's nothing more abusive about scruffing than there is leaving them in an empty room. i'm not sure why you look at it any other way.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> How about we all agree that there's multiple ways to raise a puppy*, and that the end results will be what we want out of it? For instance, I let my puppy bite me, and one of the first things I teach it is, "No" and this is the exact opposite of what jlbjab08's trainer has advised. Who's right? me, of course, lol. JK.
> 
> Lots of us here are old enough to have raised GSDs with compulsion, because that's all we knew at the time. The fact that we have wonderful dogs and have tweaked our training methods says something.
> 
> * nobody has said to get physical with an 8 week old puppy


Totally agree with this. Being open to trying other methods of training is key. Also, yes... a good amount of us are old enough to have had a shepherd we trained with compulsion. I think I've found a balance, like Debbie is talking about.. using a mixed bag of things where it's not 'purely positive' but still encouraging the pup to want to work for us, to be excited for that "yes, good boy!" Keeping the door open for compulsion when needed, though. NOT talking 8 week old, either, though.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think it's important to mention that if you follow any puppy behavior threads on this forum, the majority replies to questions always contain "seek puppy classes". Those replies have nothing to do with the OP's ability to train or training practices. There are many, many tools in the training tool box. Training techniques aren't one size fits all. That is where puppy classes become a very important tool in setting up a solid foundation in the pup.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

But suppose your approach doesn't have as high value in pups eyes as the behavior ? Of course I am sure many of you have never experienced that:wub:.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not purely positive either. I correct my dogs if necessary. But I am not even trying to correct puppies that aren't eight weeks old yet. I might remove myself from their play area. I think GAME OVER is actually more effective than wrestling with a puppy. 

Yes they are German Shepherds, which makes them intelligent, loyal, dogs that are driven to learn and work with their people. I think that intelligent and sensitive dogs sometimes respond better to being motivated to do something positively and rewarded with praise or occasionally treats, then they are motivated through punishment to not do a thing.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I think it's important to mention that if you follow any puppy behavior threads on this forum, the majority replies to questions always contain "seek puppy classes". Those replies have nothing to do with the OP's ability to train or training practices. There are many, many tools in the training tool box. Training techniques aren't one size fits all. That is where puppy classes become a very important tool in setting up a solid foundation in the pup.


right. but after what was said in this thread why would anyone want to seek puppy classes or a trainer. no certification is needed to be a trainer. apparently you dont even have to know what a dog is in order to call yourself a dog trainer. so what motivates someone to go to puppy class if you're dismissing their credibility?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag, Halo is my first working line shepherd, and I definitely used more compulsion with her than I ever needed to do with my other dogs. But fortunately, she is VERY biddable too, and extremely easily motivated by food and/or toys, so I was able to shamelessly manipulate that during training, lol! She is confident, fearless, and VERY full of herself, so she hasn't been the slightest bit damaged by using a firmer hand. But she also didn't need that at 8 weeks old, she responded very well to motivational techniques and NILIF.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jlbjab08 said:


> i'm not sure why you look at it any other way.


I've tried to explain it to you, but I must be really poor with my communication skills.

BTW, I've never left a puppy with out supervison unless they are crated. The term 'alone' simply means to stop all interactions with the puppy. To ignore.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> I am not purely positive either. I correct my dogs if necessary. But I am not even trying to correct puppies that aren't eight weeks old yet. I might remove myself from their play area. I think GAME OVER is actually more effective than wrestling with a puppy.
> 
> Yes they are German Shepherds, which makes them intelligent, loyal, dogs that are driven to learn and work with their people. I think that intelligent and sensitive dogs sometimes respond better to being motivated to do something positively and rewarded with praise or occasionally treats, then they are motivated through punishment to not do a thing.


i praise my dog more than necessary. i'm probably desensitizing him to "good boy" as much as i say it. 

punishment is relative. technically putting them in a room alone could qualify as punishment. they don't like it right? sounds like punishment to me.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

i wish people would stop leaning on the 8 week old puppy argument. its really irrelevant at this point in the thread. everyone has agreed that 8 weeks old is not an appropriate age. i realize the OP has an 8 week old puppy. however, i would only promote my suggested method if old enough. are we clear on that yet?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> But suppose your approach doesn't have as high value in pups eyes as the behavior ? Of course I am sure many of you have never experienced that:wub:.


I think THIS is the issue! I swear.... I never had a shepherd like this one before. It's thrilling, though, because he's AWESOME! However, unless you've had it in front of you... and you find yourself failing miserably... you just can't understand. I never would have believed it before. It's like comparing apples and oranges. :shocked: I just literally said to my wife last night that maybe they should create a different name for these type of dogs, because he is SO different from any shepherd I've ever had. I think that this whole discussion is based on speaking about one type of pup. If you don't know the 'other type' it's hard to understand why the 'gentler method' doesn't work.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> But suppose your approach doesn't have as high value in pups eyes as the behavior ? Of course I am sure many of you have never experienced that:wub:.


The obvious answer is to try something else, which is what *I* would do.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Jag, Halo is my first working line shepherd, and I definitely used more compulsion with her than I ever needed to do with my other dogs. But fortunately, she is VERY biddable too, and extremely easily motivated by food and/or toys, so I was able to shamelessly manipulate that during training, lol! She is confident, fearless, and VERY full of herself, so she hasn't been the slightest bit damaged by using a firmer hand. But she also didn't need that at 8 weeks old, she responded very well to motivational techniques and NILIF.


I didn't have Grim until he was 10 weeks (almost 11) so I missed that period. Grim has an invisible sign around his neck reading "will work for food", LOL! I also use that to my advantage!  I was warned by the breeder that Grim was VERY stubborn. I had to see it for myself, though. He also is full of himself. What a ride, eh? GREAT dogs!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag said:


> Grim has an invisible sign around his neck reading "will work for food", LOL! I also use that to my advantage!  I was warned by the breeder that Grim was VERY stubborn. I had to see it for myself, though. He also is full of himself. What a ride, eh? GREAT dogs!!


:thumbup: We got Halo at 10 weeks old, and she seemed to come pre-programmed to sit and look at me. It was pronounced enough that I actually emailed the breeder and asked her if she taught her that and she said nope, she just does it naturally. :wub: That gave me something to build on, which I set about doing right away!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Nobody in their right mind would put a puppy in a room alone, lol. When you disengage, that's the thing, poof and you're gone, immediate shock and if you walk away to do this, then you walk away. If you have to close a door, that means that the dog is on top of you so a momentary barrier isn't the end of the world.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jlbjab08 said:


> i praise my dog more than necessary. i'm probably desensitizing him to "good boy" as much as i say it.
> 
> punishment is relative. technically putting them in a room alone could qualify as punishment. they don't like it right? sounds like punishment to me.


Well, see, here's the thing, I am not working with one puppy. I have a group of them. Usually at eight weeks old, removing myself from the play area is just hopping the x-pen. No, it is not punishment at all because there are other puppies, and they will redirect their puppy-play appropriate to puppies to other puppies. If I am working with a puppy one on one, I will get my hands up, or offer fists, rather than open fingers, much less pleasant to chew on. 

In fact my niece, who is still in a car-seat as she is under 40 pounds, did this with the puppies when they started gnawing on her. I pointed it out and told her that was very good. She told me I told her to do that the last time she was out playing with the puppies, months earlier. Good job! She does listen and remember. It is not physical, it is not hard to do, it does not take big, or bulkyness. It just means making your hands less chewable. 

As for getting off the 8-week-old thing, I am sorry, but that would be irresponsible at this point. People read the first few posts sometimes, and then the post, and then they start reading or get pulled into a conversation that is totally unconnected to the OP. They may not realize that. It would have been better, instead of hijacking this thread, to start a thread about how to work with 12 week old puppies.


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## jlbjab08 (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Well, see, here's the thing, I am not working with one puppy. I have a group of them. Usually at eight weeks old, removing myself from the play area is just hopping the x-pen. No, it is not punishment at all because there are other puppies, and they will redirect their puppy-play appropriate to puppies to other puppies. If I am working with a puppy one on one, I will get my hands up, or offer fists, rather than open fingers, much less pleasant to chew on.
> 
> In fact my niece, who is still in a car-seat as she is under 40 pounds, did this with the puppies when they started gnawing on her. I pointed it out and told her that was very good. She told me I told her to do that the last time she was out playing with the puppies, months earlier. Good job! She does listen and remember. It is not physical, it is not hard to do, it does not take big, or bulkyness. It just means making your hands less chewable.
> 
> As for getting off the 8-week-old thing, I am sorry, but that would be irresponsible at this point. People read the first few posts sometimes, and then the post, and then they start reading or get pulled into a conversation that is totally unconnected to the OP. They may not realize that. It would have been better, instead of hijacking this thread, to start a thread about how to work with 12 week old puppies.


Why? I know how to work with a 12 week old


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