# Why is Kira an immediate target for aggressive dogs?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

OK before anyone gets nuts, Kira was *NOT* attacked 

However, there's behavior from dogs around her, that concern me.

I know pups and dogs give "signals", but Kira is doing something to set off aggressive dogs.

Here's what I'm talking about:

A little history...
Kira is a but skittish, and does not like to engage with older, "growly" dogs.
She plays well with balanced, younger dogs.

I finish work each day around 2:30pm. At 3pm, I'm at the dog run. I have 2 or 3 friends that I meet there, for some private play time. These dogs know each other,and get along well. A young GS, and a Boxer. I avoid the dog park scene 100%

Yesterday:

The dogs were having their daily play date, and a "dog park regular" arrived with a Yellow Lab. Since I don't want to get caught up in the dog park scene, I was about to remove Kira, and call it a day.
As SOON as that dog entered the arena, it went straight to Kira, Hacks up, growling, and it sent Kira running for cover. The owner called the dog off, I leashed Kira, and left.
It left me wondering *WHY* that dog zeroed in on Kira, when there were two other dogs there?

Here's a short video clip of Kira playing with her "friends". No problem here. I specifically set up her playmates, to avoid the dog park.






Here's a video capture of the Lab.
He became SO fixated on Kira, that he followed her along the fence area, in a rage.


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

Interesting. I have no explaination for the behavior but I think you handled it the right way. :thumbup:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I had a very similar problem with Abby for her first 2 years. She is just now having fewer problems. I think that dogs have subtle body language that we don't always pick up on, but THEY do. It is very interesting to watch, especially when a dog goes from being timid to confident in a matter of minutes ... and vice versa. But there are dogs that remain the same throughout their lives. Most of them are just responding to the 'present situation'.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The main thing I have observed for dogs who get jumped is they often stare at the dog who jumps them. Also the calming signals thing.......just putting your dog in a sit and getting their attention can defuse a potentially volatile situation


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> The main thing I have observed for dogs who get jumped is they often stare at the dog who jumps them. Also the calming signals thing.......just putting your dog in a sit and getting their attention can defuse a potentially volatile situation


I read the Calming Signals book, and have been paying attention, and looking for warning signs.

That dog ran across the entire run to get to her. Kira was playing with the young GS, and the Lab came right up other tail,and started biting at her side. He immediately got loud, growly, and sent Kira running for cover. 
Another second, and Kira was getting it again.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I want to add that I did do something AFTER the fact, and Im not sure it was the right thing to do. 
After exiting the dog run, I positioned myself on the other side of the fence, and let Kira watch from outside. That Lab would continue to come over and attempt to terrorize Kira. I stayed there, thinking that it would boost Kira's confidence level, by not immediately leaving with a bad experience.
Kira was fine, and ignored the raging Lab. She laid next to me, and just watched as the Lab barked at her through the fence.

The owner of the Lab had the nerve to come over and ask me to leave, because I was "upsetting" her dog. (I'm really starting to dislike dog people). LOL.
I just smiled and asked if she was joking (sarcasm)

I left when her dog stopped coming over.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My guess is her body language is telling them something like "here, I'm an easy target"

As far as continuing to let her watch the rabid Lab from the other side of the fence, I disagree with that. when I work with Jax on LAT, I don't use a dog that is going nuts. I want her to look at nice, calm dogs to help show her that dogs are not anything to fear. She may have been "ignoring" the Lab as an avoidance thing.

And the owner of the Lab...wth did she not come get her dog and control it? Yes, sitting outside the fence while the dog was going nuts was kind of antagonizing it but that was her chance to work with HER dog on what is obviously a reactive issue. That is her responsibility. I would have been furious if a dog had come up to Jax and started biting at her side while growling at her.

BTW...I don't consider owners like that "dog people". Dog people...true dog people...don't do that crap and don't let their dogs do that kind of stuff.


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## kennajo (May 20, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> My guess is her body language is telling them something like "here, I'm an easy target"
> 
> As far as continuing to let her watch the rabid Lab from the other side of the fence, I disagree with that. when I work with Jax on LAT, I don't use a dog that is going nuts. I want her to look at nice, calm dogs to help show her that dogs are not anything to fear. She may have been "ignoring" the Lab as an avoidance thing.
> 
> ...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I love my rescue to death, but she is slightly off to say the least. Every dog she meets will gang up on her. It's her odd behavior that sets them off. I feel bad blaming the victim, but in my rescue's case, she invites the behavior and other dogs go after her. She definitely an easy target. She acts skittish, jumps/runs like a prey animal and has weird body signals. She was taken from her littermates too quickly so I attribute it to her never properly learning "dog interaction".


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Is she spayed? And I know she's about 10 months old correct? I think it might have to do with her coming into maturity and the other dogs have a way of sensing the adolescent and wanting to put them in their place. It's kind of a weird middle ground where they are not puppies anymore so the adult dogs don't ignore them as much, and they aren't quite adults yet so they don't stand up for themselves.

I had a short time when I went through this, but my male "manned up" quite quick and either his body language or smell changed enough for the adult dogs to stop bothering him. He went from being submissive to the big dog on campus in a few short months. I can't really say how to build her confidence as I generally didn't do anything except wait it out and made sure the other dogs weren't doing anything too bad (I know I have a different opinion of dog parks as the majority of the board, but my dog can handle it). It might also just be her general temperament, she might be a submissive dog for the rest of her life (which isn't a bad thing, I'd actually kind of prefer it). Just wait and see what she starts doing as soon as she's a little older.

Now about the spaying thing...I have noticed that Rooney can get "aggressive" towards a female in/around her heat cycle. I've seen him around a bitch that just came out of her cycle (don't know why the guy brought her to the park) and also around a bitch that I believe the owners had no idea she was in heat. He's an intact male, and as soon as he caught wind of her, he took off and had her by the neck and on the ground in seconds (I of course removed him in the next few seconds). I'd be interested to see if that might be it also.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't know why some dogs are more of a target for aggression and others aren't. I have had this same issue with Juno. She's a fair bit younger than your Kira, but every single run in she's had with an aggressive dog, it's been with a Lab. (Black, Yellow and Chocolate) to be exact. 

Each time, I reacted the same, and removed Juno from the situation. I've discovered you can never rely on people to get control of their dogs when their reaction to the situation is, "Ah, look. They are playing." 

"Targeted" dogs like ours can surprise you though. One of the Lab's who has targeted Juno unfortunately is in her obedience class. This Lab is completely out of control during most of the classes. He has designated himself Juno's "bully" at every given opportunity, so we tend to give him a wide berth if possible. 

Last week we were working on a recall exercise where all the other dogs are leashed, and the owners are told to maintain control of their dogs while one dog at a time is let unleashed. They are held by the trainer and the handler is meant to call them from the other side of the room. Juno has pretty good recall and never stops to "visit" with any other dogs along the way. She just makes a beeline straight to me. But the first time we did this exercise, the Black Lab she was passing lunged at her, swiped her in the face with his paws and barked aggressively. Juno got past him, ran to me, then spun on her heels and barked at him (without lunging) after I'd clipped her lead on.

The second time we did this exercise, Juno didn't wait for the Black Lab to react. She ran to me when called again, but before I could get her collar, she turned and went for the Lab, hackles up, and a potential fight was in the works. It was like she realised that he was on a lead and she wasn't. So she used it to her advantage, when she normally would have ran for cover.

I really don't want that to be the way Juno deals with aggressive dogs. But in this case, I can't say I blamed her for reacting the way she did to her "class bully".


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> I love my rescue to death, but she is slightly off to say the least. Every dog she meets will gang up on her. It's her odd behavior that sets them off. I feel bad blaming the victim, but in my rescue's case, she invites the behavior and other dogs go after her. She definitely an easy target. She acts skittish, jumps/runs like a prey animal and has weird body signals. She was taken from her littermates too quickly so I attribute it to her never properly learning "dog interaction".


I have also seen this, Rooney will keep telling a submissive dog that he is the one in charge, but the dogs that stand up for themselves and don't back down easily, he will just leave be. It's quite annoying behavior that I'm working on fixing but it might just be one of those things that isn't fixable but has to be avoided.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

martemchik: I definitely think females in heat set off males. My male has been a brute the last week or so since my female came into heat. She is currently in her second week and he is going nuts. I have them separated, but he will still try to dominate my spayed female and try to mate her. I've had to correct him, but he is still more aggressive and dominating than usual. I've observed this with other intact males at training when we have a female in heat around. They all become very aggressive towards each other. On the plus side, his bite work is better 

I also agree about the submissive dog sometimes inviting the aggression. Whiskey and Wiva have a normal dog relationship where one gives chase and then the other. It's equal. Puddi will NEVER give chase. She will always be the one chased, pinned down or dominated. She never stands up for herself and it invites more domineering behavior.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I love my rescue to death, but she is slightly off to say the least. Every dog she meets will gang up on her. It's her odd behavior that sets them off. I feel bad blaming the victim, but in my rescue's case, she invites the behavior and other dogs go after her. She definitely an easy target. She acts skittish, jumps/runs like a prey animal and has weird body signals. She was taken from her littermates too quickly so I attribute it to her never properly learning "dog interaction".


I've been dealing with this for some time. It doesn't bother me, because I'm not ****-bent on putting her in dog parks. I'm just curious why she could be an easy target.




kennajo said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is her body language is telling them something like "here, I'm an easy target"
> ...


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

When Woolf and I began seeing Chris, after working him and observing his reactions; she made a strong statement that really nailed it home. 'Woolf is brave enough to be stupid enough to start something he can't finish.'

Her explanation is what I think applies here:

Dogs sense when another dog is weak, the more balanced dogs will have little to no reaction to it. The ones who aren't will react and their level of aggression will determine the intensity of the reaction. (That looks jumbled up hope it makes sense)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree with Jax. Just because a person owns a dog it does not mean they are a 'dog person'. I think that true dog people are far in the minority of dog owners. I didn't become a dog person until well into my second dog's old age. Until then I just owned them, walked them, cared for them. I didn't read about behavior, training, the contents on the dog food bag. I taught my dogs to sit, come ... and fed them Iams. Shame on me. I think this is the more common type of dog owner.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

The weirdo part of all this....

There's a 15 month female WGSL a few doors away from me. They haven't met until a few days ago. The dog is a practical clone of Kira, and about 25 pounds larger.

A few days ago, we crossed paths while walking in the neighborhood. Both dogs were leashed, and we walked a bit. 
Then, out of the clear blue, both dogs went into a "play bow", and obviously wanted to play. We were on the beach, so we let them go.
Watching these two GSD's play, was a thing of beauty. They were equally rough, with growling, and mouthing, and play bowing, and alternate chasing. It was perfect. When it was all done, we continued a walk. Not a single sign of aggression or dominance.

THAT GSD is a balanced, trained dog. The owner also mentioned similar issues with her dog, when she was a pup.
I think it's a GS thing. I see a frequency in timid GS puppies.

Why did this work so right? 

IMO, I think that Kira lost her puppy license, and as a GS, tends to "look" around and observe her surrounds more than other breeds. Those "looks" could easily be misinterpreted or picked up by a reactive dog.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> I agree with Jax. Just because a person owns a dog it does not mean they are a 'dog person'. I think that true dog people are far in the minority of dog owners. I didn't become a dog person until well into my second dog's old age. Until then I just owned them, walked them, cared for them. I didn't read about behavior, training, the contents on the dog food bag. I taught my dogs to sit, come ... and fed them Iams. Shame on me. I think this is the more common type of dog owner.


Yes, I retracted my description of a "dog person".

I meant a "dog person" that feels their dog could do no wrong.
I don't like certain "dog people' in my neighborhood. 
There's a testosterone thing going on around here. People want tough dogs, and literally laugh when their dogs dominate.

My apology. I used the wrong words.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> My guess is her body language is telling them something like "here, I'm an easy target"
> 
> As far as continuing to let her watch the rabid Lab from the other side of the fence, I disagree with that. when I work with Jax on LAT, I don't use a dog that is going nuts. I want her to look at nice, calm dogs to help show her that dogs are not anything to fear. She may have been "ignoring" the Lab as an avoidance thing.
> 
> ...



I think you (Anthony) ought to go to the dog park and watch dogs for a while, without Kira.
Or else find a video that's all about dog language. It's very interesting.
I was wondering if Kira was actually challenging these dogs in some way that either she doesn't realize, or she does realize and you are missing.

Since her one situation where she basically bluffed that other dog into not attacking she may feel invincible. But only you could decipher that after knowing about their body language and what they are saying.

I've had foster dogs come in that are walking targets simply because they don't have good social skills, almost as if they were never exposed to other dogs. 

Things I try to explain to people...who will say things like "my dog will love the newly adopted dog, because it loves all the other dogs at the dog park", well, yes, but that's _off _their property, they may consider a dog on their property an intruder; 
A dog "loves other dogs" until a dog comes along it does not; just because your dog is/was submissive with the last dog you owned does not mean it will be submissive with the new dog you just adopted (in fact often the case is quite the opposite, they've had enough of being the underling and are going to take a leadership role this time); 
when they say that dog relationships are fluid, that's just what they mean. 

Within your own pack they may be somewhat static but if anything changes, a dog gets sick, or one passes on, everything changes, and people would do well to not "peg" their dog as being afraid, skittish, shy, dominant, etc. because it changes all the time and especially at dog parks where the dynamics are never the same.

Oh and they are right. Never let your dog stare at another dog. No matter where you are or what you are doing, or what your dog is doing. Even if they want to stare, walk away and block your dog's view as much as possible, redirecting so they are not staring. Whatever was going on, that Lab wants to teach Kira a lesson, and it doesn't matter if we understand her body language/his body language or what signals she was (or wasn't) giving off, _he_ knew what was going on and reacted strongly to it.

**one last edit  I wonder if Kira sensed right away the Lab was allowed to be an ass and was already alerting to it before he got in the park?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> IMO, I think that Kira lost her puppy license, and as a GS, tends to "look" around and observe her surrounds more than other breeds. Those "looks" could easily be misinterpreted or picked up by a reactive dog.


I don't believe things get misinterpreted, they all mean to do things, a reactive dog might not like that she is making sure things are ok as that might be "his job" and react to it and try to tell her that he'll make sure things are alright. But it's probably a safe bet that she lost her puppy license. She's probably a good 60 lbs by now and isn't the small thing she once was, but her personality and confidence is still that of an 8 month old dog. I went through the same exact thing, its funny watching a 70 lb GSD run away from dogs half their size or even close to their size, just keep doing what you're doing and trust me soon enough she'll realize she's not a puppy. I'd keep her in your small play group, but also not avoid all dogs. She should interact with other dogs that are hopefully balanced, so I wouldn't automatically say no to anyone that wants to meet your girl, but I'd be cautious just to avoid your situations. Whatever area you live in seems to have a lot of dogs that have dominant tendencies and the owners don't control them.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I can offer this, you say Kira is timid? If she is, I know that some dogs...my own Male GSD, will pick up on it and tend to bully the "weaker" timid dogs. IDK why exactly, I have my speculations. 

I would work more on boosting her confidence around other dogs and just in general. I truly feel a timid dog can set off a confident or more dominant dog due to their body language. Just watching the little clip of her and reading your posts, I kinda sense this is what is happening. 

I would not have stood outside the fence with the Lab barking at you. I don't see how that helped her with anything other than learning to ignore a butthead dog.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I don't believe things get misinterpreted, they all mean to do things, a reactive dog might not like that she is making sure things are ok as that might be "his job" and react to it and try to tell her that he'll make sure things are alright. But it's probably a safe bet that she lost her puppy license. *She's probably a good 60 lbs by now and isn't the small thing she once was, but her personality and confidence is still that of an 8 month old dog. I went through the same exact thing, its funny watching a 70 lb GSD run away from dogs half their size or even close to their size, just keep doing what you're doing and trust me soon enough she'll realize she's not a puppy.* I'd keep her in your small play group, but also not avoid all dogs. She should interact with other dogs that are hopefully balanced, so I wouldn't automatically say no to anyone that wants to meet your girl, but I'd be cautious just to avoid your situations. Whatever area you live in seems to have a lot of dogs that have dominant tendencies and the owners don't control them.


I believe this is the case.

Her play group is excellent for her. She has a blast, and gets plenty of exercise. No problems whatsoever.

And Yes, there does seem to be quite a few dogs around here, and owners that don't control them.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I can offer this, you say Kira is timid? If she is, I know that some dogs...my own Male GSD, will pick up on it and tend to bully the "weaker" timid dogs. IDK why exactly, I have my speculations.
> 
> I would work more on boosting her confidence around other dogs and just in general. I truly feel a timid dog can set off a confident or more dominant dog due to their body language. Just watching the little clip of her and reading your posts, I kinda sense this is what is happening.
> 
> I would not have stood outside the fence with the Lab barking at you. I don't see how that helped her with anything other than learning to ignore a butthead dog.


Please describe what you got from that video?

As far as the barking dog... Yes, I didn't know right from wrong in that case. But, the annoying dog eventually got corrected by its owner, and shut up.
Afterwards, both dogs were on opposite sides of the fence and quiet. That's when I left.
I guess in my own way of thinking, I wanted to leave on a good note.

Thanks for the correction.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> The owner of the Lab had the nerve to come over and ask me to leave, because I was "upsetting" her dog. (I'm really starting to dislike dog people). LOL.
> I just smiled and asked if she was joking (sarcasm)
> 
> I left when her dog stopped coming over.


Wow, what nerve of that owner! Doesn't sound as though the Lab probably needs to be in the dog park?

I know what you mean, though. Bailey sets off certain dogs for no reason I can see. So far, it's only been male dogs. It's frustrating, as I cannot see any single thing he is doing. He can simply be standing there, not even very close to them. It has made me back off the dog park a lot.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

This sounds very similar to a friend of mine who has a male rottweiler. This dog is probably the sweetest 150 pound dog you'll ever see. Absolutely no human or dog aggression whatsoever. Pure marshmallow fluff in a dog suit. 

This dog has been the target of at least 5 unprovoked attacks for whatever reason and that's what I know about. When attacked, this dog immediately hits the ground on his back. There's no fight put up, he basically just ducks and covers.

I've seen this happen a few times and I can't see anything at all the provokes this to happen. A new dog comes in and immediately bolts for this dog. I've seen this happen in a group of at least 15 dogs and it immediately went after this rottweiler for whatever reason. I didn't notice any signals put out that I noticed. 

I really don't know what causes this. Maybe because the dogs somehow sense that this dog is weak and submissive, maybe that has something to do with it. I really don't know, but I've seen it happen multiple times by multiple dogs. Just thought I'd mention this because it sound similar to what's happening to Kira.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh man, I've been told once to leave by a park goer...I laughed so hard and we actually got into a pretty heated argument. As much as I see other dogs that shouldn't be at the dog park...I would never tell someone to leave a public park that they have just as much right to be in as myself.

On a side note, the guy that I got into it with, was just a jerk, his friend hit my dog on the face because he thought my dog was about to hump his dog (my dog doesn't hump), I explained to him, with choice words that if he ever hits my dog again, he won't be leaving this park on his own to legs, which is where his buddy chimed in. Funny part was that his friend didn't have a pass to bring his dog to the park, and used it on a regular basis without getting one ($25 for the year). When I brought up that we can call someone and see who should stay, he quieted down really quickly. People are idiots, but I'll never let someone else's stupidity stop me from doing something I like.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Poor Kira But I am so glad she has some really nice doggie friends

That woman, well THAT would have peeved me, Kira sounded fine, while "cujo" was going ballistic on the other side of the fence, yes, the woman should have used that opportunity to work on her own "problem".

My female aussie has always been a happy/friendly/ totally non reactive marshmellow, very non confrontational, she's 12 now, and has ALWAYS had 'bite me' stamped on her forehead. I have no idea "why" as she is the sweetest thing ever, but she has had a few incidents of being 'bullied'. She will stick up for herself, IF she has to, but why she gets 'pin pointed', I can only guess as one said, other dogs that are more "bullyish" pick up on her weakness.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I know I started the thread, but I have to say that the responses have been amazing to say the least.

I didn't think so many others shared the same experiences.

But to be honest, I'm so happy that Kira doesn't want to fight. One day, she will be a full grown German Shepherd, and the thought of the potential damage in a fight is scary. Regardless of who gets the damage.

IMO, Kira is stable, and simply doesn't want to engage.
Again, IMO... THAT"S why she's the best 

Today, I took a walk, and as I did before, I sat outside and looked on as the dogs romped.
One guy walked over and showed me his 8 month pit, and the 6 holes on his head. He said another dog attacked his pup for no reason. He said his and the other dog played together every day, and then the other dog, just "lost it".

*That park is like "Cell Block H" LOL.*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> As far as continuing to let her watch the rabid Lab from the other side of the fence, I disagree with that. when I work with Jax on LAT, I don't use a dog that is going nuts. I want her to look at nice, calm dogs to help show her that dogs are not anything to fear.





Anthony8858 said:


> I agree that I may have made the wrong decision to stay there, and let her watch. I had good intentions, but a lack of knowledge.


I only know that because my trainer told me so!!!


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

Anthony, I wish we lived close to each other! Kira and Isa sound so much alike. Both have their "off" feed times, are 8 months, and now this.

I have tried the dog park some with Isa. She is never, ever aggressive and submits readily to other dogs. However three times now she has been aggressively "attacked"....snarling, hackles up, and biting (no injuries as the owners and myself were on it immediately). I also left park as soon as it happened, even though some of the people encourage me to stay. 

It is so weird, I don't know what message Isa is sending out. One was a female golden retriever that has never done anything like that to any other dog. She was playing ball at the other end of the park and when she saw Isa running and playing with a couple other dogs, she charged the length of the park and attacked. The other two were female pit bull mixes. Isa loves other dogs and I can't understand why this happens either. Each of the times this has happened Isa was paying no attention to the other dogs and either was just sitting by me or playing with other dogs.

She has a couple dogs up the road from us where I take her to play in their fenced yard. She also lives with two older dogs.

Like you, Anthony, I would rather her be like this than be having problems with her being the aggressor. I just hate it that she seems to have a sign on her forehead that says "easy prey". I will say that none of the instances have seemed to bothered her. She was much more upset when one of her housemates got tired of her play and snapped at her.


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