# E collar was too strong now what



## cdwoodcox

After a lot of internal debates I decided to go with the Lou Castle e collar training. I made the mistake of purchasing a sport dog 425S e collar. While it seems to be a quality collar. I realized at the end of our training (recall) that it was way too much juice. I thought he went close to me pretty quick. Within 12 times. Once I couldn't sneak away (He was velcro) I then went through the turn and zap phase. I didn't realize that it was too much because I was pulling as I was zapping. I had it on the lowest setting. It wasn't until I mistimed the very last turn that I noticed he was in actual pain with each zap. He has been walking around scared ever since. He is sleeping now. I will return it to TSC tomorrow and purchase one that lou recommends on his site. Here is my question. How long should I wait to let Rosko get over the blunder that was today.


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## onyx'girl

ugh, you weren't working with anyone other than Lou's instruction? When I went through training with my dog(Dogtra) I had another set of eyes and help from a very experienced person. She does field retrieving/hunt tests...steps to intro and then proof does sometimes involve the dog being velcro'd to the handler because they feel that is the 'safe spot' We did a lot of sessions on directionals before we proofed the stim level. I would get with a trainer that can help you. I know Lou is great, but he isn't with you and seeing your timing, etc.


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## yuriy

This thing? Shop for FieldTrainer® 425S by SportDOG - SD-425S

Never heard of this brand, but just reading "for stubborn dogs" tells me all I want to know about the manufacturer. And that should have been a clue for the levels of intensity this thing provides... but anyways, water under the bridge.

Lou Castle's site recommends Dogtra and Einstein brands. I have no experience with Dogtra products, but I have an Einstein ET800TS (w/ dual receivers) and it's fantastic (have previously owned TriTronics and Gamin e-collars).

As far as how long to wait... order the new collar, it'll take a week to get, and then let Rosko wear it for a couple hours here and there without it actually being used. If you can, make an association between putting the collar on and doing something fun (like going for a walk). I reach for the e-collar and Liza runs to me, sticking her head into it - she knows we're about to go out. Positive association is always good. 

After a few of these walks I'd start using the collar at the conditioning level (the lowest stim at which you see a response - such as an ear twitch). You don't need to wait much more than that.


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## cdwoodcox

yuriy said:


> This thing? Shop for FieldTrainer:registered: 425S by SportDOG - SD-425S
> 
> 
> 
> After a few of these walks I'd start using the collar at the conditioning level (the lowest stim at which you see a response - such as an ear twitch). You don't need to wait much more than that.


Yeah, that's the one. I figured that the lowest settings would all be about the same. The higher settings would be the stubborn dog area. I was wrong. 


That is what I was hoping to do. Definitely will need to let him wear the collar for a spell before using I think.


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## cdwoodcox

onyx'girl said:


> ugh, you weren't working with anyone other than Lou's instruction? When I went through training with my dog(Dogtra) I had another set of eyes and help from a very experienced person. She does field retrieving/hunt tests...steps to intro and then proof does sometimes involve the dog being velcro'd to the handler because they feel that is the 'safe spot' We did a lot of sessions on directionals before we proofed the stim level. I would get with a trainer that can help you. I know Lou is great, but he isn't with you and seeing your timing, etc.


Thanks I'll ask the lady that has been training rosko if she has experience with e-collar training. That is what the hesitation was about on my part. He is doing good with regular training. However I have read a lot about recall training with e-collar. Plus I like the idea of being able to alert him while he's a ways off in the woods with the beep or vibrate mode.


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## Blitzkrieg1

If your dog is super sensitive they can show stress reactions the first time you do recalls on the collar at any level. Don't let this worry you. Stress is part of life they have to learn to deal with. Once they learn how to make the pressure stop and have been exposed to a few sessions even the super sensitive soft dogs lose the stress behaviors.
It sounds like you did to many recalls. With a soft dog doing to much is counter productive. If you go out and do 2 to 4 recalls in a session call it a day. To much repetition creates the velcro dog that won't leave you. Why would he? He knows the second he does he will get stimulated and recalled.
Use nick instead of continuous if the bottom setting is to high. 
That being said sport dog is a crappy brand. I don't sell it or recommend it to my clients.


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## Mrs.P

I believe the issue is attempting to use the low-stim method with an ecollar that does not have low levels --not the number of reps... 

Go with Ecollar Technologies or dogtra order online. 

Pay NO attention to the behavior let it diminish over the next few days while you wait for your new ecollar to arrive.


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## NancyJ

Lets stop with escalating this! The OP has an issue of his own admitted making, and is looking to resolve it. 

Those who can help him get past the problem, please do so and all others please stay out.


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## wolfy dog

OP, I would wait with using (even not introducing on level 0) the new collar until the dog is completely back to his old self ( and you too), no matter how long it takes. And yes, like a previous poster said, do not pay attention in any form to his behavior. Keep a confident and happy attitude. You may feel guilty but that doesn't help the dog. Sometimes bad things happen and we learn and get over it. So can dogs. Carefully study the technique.


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## cdwoodcox

I didn't try it on my neck but I did hold it in my hand prior to using with Rosko. It honestly wasn't that bad when I held it. But, evidently my tolerance is higher than Roskos. Anyway after his nap he was fine. I think it was all just a bit much too quick. as far as which E-collar I will either go with the dogtra platinum 280ncp or the einstein ET-502. Both look to be good collars with 1/2 mile range. I'll probably have my father who has trained multiple **** dogs with e collars help out at first. I still want to use the lou castle method when I asked him if he used that method he said he didn't know who that was. But the procedure sounded almost identical.


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## Slamdunc

Dogs have different tolerances to pain and the stimulation from an E collar. I have owned a few tough dogs over the years, one would react to the lowest level my current dog shows little reaction.

First and foremost, you must condition the dog to the collar. The dog should wear the collar while training for a couple of weeks before you ever turn it on. Then you test for the sensitivity of your dog. You start on the lowest setting and stim, you then watch for a reaction. The reaction may be an ear twitch, licking his lips, a yawn, etc. You gradually increase the level until you see a reaction. That is your low stim starting point, where the dog feels the sensation. 

I have no idea what Lou Castle's method is, but this not something that you can learn from reading or over the internet. You need an experienced trainer to help you. While I do use an E collar and have for years, there is a correct way and a wrong way to use this device. It is not a tool of last resort, nor to be used on a high setting on a regular basis. 

While I use one when working my Patrol dog and even for my IPO training, my dogs rarely if ever get a high level stim. I use it as a finesse tool and low levels are great for that. I also never use the E collar to teach a recall. I'm not big on stimming a dog to make it do something. I prefer to use it to make the dog stop doing something or stopping an undesirable behavior. I find training the recall motivationally works so much better. 

Please keep in mind that on a high level a E collar delivers nearly 25,000 volts. A taser delivers 50,000. Just to give you an idea of how strong the stimulation can be. The best thing that you can do is work with someone in person. If I can offer any help or advice I most certainly will.


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## cdwoodcox

Slamdunc said:


> If I can offer any help or advice I most certainly will.


 Thanks Jim.


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## Basia

*It still might be a faulty collar:* I purchased that exact collar a few years ago. Though in the beginning when I tested Basia's setting indoors in a neutral environment, all was well and I just got an ear twitch on the lowest setting. After one session of actual work outdoors I started to notice something was off because Basia was having an over the top reaction. So I stopped and waited for a spotter to watch me and the dog the following week. We all zapped ourselves before using it on the dog and it was nothing to cry about, just a minor tingle. In the beginning Basia was taking it well but a few minutes into training they all noticed what I was talking about... so I took the collar off and we all tested it on our hands again and it was PAINFUL, and we all agreed. I have since tried it on myself at random times and it fluctuated from minor tingle to over the top shock. Now all it does is over the top shock. The collar is unreliable and faulty.


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## Castlemaid

Cheaper collars are notorious for not being consistent in their stim. So it may well have been mild when you tested it on yourself, then delivered a higher stim when on your dog but still at the same setting. 

That is why only one or two better name brands are usually recommended.


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## Basia

FWIW the 425S is the collar I chose for my first eCollar too. It had good reviews and came recommended by some trainers. I don't think that it's "not supposed to have a low setting" as someone mentioned, but more that it can reach a higher stim. level. Either way, ditch the collar and get a better brand. I'm sure your dog will recover just fine- mine did


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## jaudlee

I have used the sportdog 425S collar for my dog for about 2 years now. best investment yet.. He is now trained using vibrate or tone without the need of stimulation. I think you may have personally done something improperly because the collar is wonderful in my experience and self-tested on "LEVEL 1" shock is not a bad shock at all.


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## cdwoodcox

I have already returned the original collar. I chose to go with the dogtra arc. Dogtra ARC - Dogtra 
According to their customer service 0 setting is virtually no stim. So I should be able to have much more control with this collar. 

Thanks for all the responses.


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## Slamdunc

I agree that cheap collars are not always reliable. I use the tritronics and have had good results with it. I have used the same one for almost 10 years and it still works well. 

You should keep in mind that the tightness of the collar effects how well it works and how good the "connection" is. If the collar is loose and spins or the receiver moves around the dog's neck it can seem intermittent. It may also appear that the "normal" level is not high enough, due to the collar being loose. 

Also, as the dog works or exerts itself, it's neck expands, much like a bicep gets bigger when doing curls. So, the collar will get tighter with exertion and looser as the dog stops working or cools down. I use an E collar strap that has a bungy cord built in. It stretches as the dog's neck expands so I do not need to put it on very tight to get a good connection. I recommend a "stretch" collar for anyone using an E collar.


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## carmspack

could I ask what you were trying to train or trying to correct?
had you tried other ways to get desired results .

"he was in actual pain with each zap. He has been walking around scared ever since. He is sleeping now." ... " Here is my question. How long should I wait to let Rosko get over the blunder that was today. "

I hope the dog hasn't gone into avoidance for any leash work . Let the dog have his rest .

Tomorrow start off with gaining trust by being fair - not babying -- establish trust .
See how he is on the leash and just go for a walk . 

Again , it sort of depends on what your dog was doing that prompted you into going to the e-collar.


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## selzer

I think you might get a better appreciation of the level if you tried it with bare feet, so nothing shielding you from the ground. 

I would simply pay no attention to whatever negative effects, and when your new collar comes try again. Remove it if the dog responds in a way you don't want, and put it up for a month, then try again. 

Once upon a time, I was hosing my brother's dog and she wanted to eat my bitch. She went through my window three times. Long story. But, while building a couple of kennels that would be safe to hold bears, I had to use a tie out of her. I put up a runner and after she made a mud pit out of my front lawn, I put her out back of my shed on a chain along my fence line where it wasn't so wet. 

Anyhow, I had an electric wire running along the bottom of my fence so that the dogs would not try to climb over or dig under my fence. It was a solar powered job, safe for cattle, sheep, and dogs. 

I'm coming to it. 

I got home the next day, and Jazzy would not come out of the dog house. Finally, I commanded her to come out -- I am mean like that. She came out shaking all over. I was flummoxed. What could have happened to her? And then I saw. Somehow that wire through the fence was connected to had a wire crossing the metal eyelet in the shed that I had her chained to. 

I felt awful. The poor girl was being shocked all day and found that in order not to be shocked, she needed to stay in her house. I fixed it, but there was nothing but to keep her chained for a few weeks while the kennels were being completed. 

By the next day, she showed no signs of having had any negative feeling. She did not mind her collar or the chain, didn't stay in her house. Dogs will recover if we don't over-react about things most of the time.


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## cdwoodcox

carmspack said:


> could I ask what you were trying to train or trying to correct?
> had you tried other ways to get desired results .
> 
> "he was in actual pain with each zap. He has been walking around scared ever since. He is sleeping now." ... " Here is my question. How long should I wait to let Rosko get over the blunder that was today. "
> 
> I hope the dog hasn't gone into avoidance for any leash work . Let the dog have his rest .
> 
> Tomorrow start off with gaining trust by being fair - not babying -- establish trust .
> See how he is on the leash and just go for a walk .
> 
> Again , it sort of depends on what your dog was doing that prompted you into going to the e-collar.


 The main reason for the e-collar was for recall. Either my voice or if he's half mile away with the beep. He has a decent recall now but I'm sure if he was chasing a squirrel or other Animal he would choose to ignore me. 
I put the leash on him this morning and he was fine. Same thing this evening. I even walked him around the same areas. No I'll lasting effects. It's possible that maybe I felt a lot worse about it then he did. He seems to have forgotten all about it.


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## Mrs.P

Where are you located maybe someone can recommend a trainer.


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## MythicMut

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I would wait with using (even not introducing on level 0) the new collar until the dog is completely back to his old self ( and you too), no matter how long it takes. And yes, like a previous poster said, do not pay attention in any form to his behavior. Keep a confident and happy attitude. You may feel guilty but that doesn't help the dog. Sometimes bad things happen and we learn and get over it. So can dogs. Carefully study the technique.


Sorry you had this experience. Definitely wait and be sure you let him wear the new collar for a couple of weeks without using it so he doesn't get stressed about it. The dogtra 1900 NCP Field Star Series is a good e-collar. You might need to get an extra set of 3/4 inch prongs for it though. The ones it comes with are a bit small.


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## LouCastle

cdwoodcox said:


> After a lot of internal debates I decided to go with the Lou Castle e collar training. I made the mistake of purchasing a sport dog 425S e collar. While it seems to be a quality collar. I realized at the end of our training (recall) that it was way too much juice. I thought he went close to me pretty quick. * Within 12 times. *


My site says this, 



> After a few minutes of this, you may find that the dog comes and stands by you and doesn't wander off again. His superstition at this time is that “out there” at the end of the Flexi the ground is “hot.” He knows that it’s uncomfortable and he doesn't want to be there. He may think that the center of the circle and/or near you is a “safe spot.” That’s OK for right now.
> 
> If your dog comes to your side and does not wander off, just wait for a few moments. If he does, wander off, you'll be able to get another "stim and pull" in. But at some point he may just come to you and stay there. If you've only done a small number of these pulls, he probably has not learned what the stim means. * If you get this response with less than a dozen stim and pulls, your stim level is probably too high. * [Emphasis Added]


The fact that you was staying with you after only 12 leash pulls, was a signal. 



cdwoodcox said:


> Once I couldn't sneak away (He was velcro) I then went through the turn and zap phase. I didn't realize that it was too much because I was pulling as I was zapping. I had it on the lowest setting. It wasn't until I mistimed the very last turn that I noticed he was in actual pain with each zap. * He has been walking around scared ever since. *


Yep, that's what happens when the stim level is too high and the dog does not know that he's in charge of it. He comes to you and stays with you, not because he's learning what the stim means, but because it hurts, and he's always looked to you for protection. Since the stim doesn't occur when he's near you, until you started the walkaways, it's confirmed. But when you started the walkaway, after he thought that he understood how to make it stop, and the stim level was still too high for him, he got very confused. That's why it's essential that the level of stim that he can first perceive be used for this method. 



cdwoodcox said:


> He is sleeping now. I will return it to TSC tomorrow and purchase one that lou recommends on his site. Here is my question. How long should I wait to let Rosko get over the blunder that was today.


There are only two brands that will work with my methods. One is Dogtra and the other is Educator (formerly Einstein). Both of them offer a very high number of stim levels, 100 levels and 127 levels, respectively. They both also offer the ability to change levels while delivering stim continuously. Lots of people on my forum have tried to use other brands, only to discover that they won't give desirable results. If all you're going to do is correct undesirable behavior, most any quality unit will work, but again, that's just scratching the surface of what can be done with an Ecollar.


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## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> Dogs have different tolerances to pain and the stimulation from an E collar. I have owned a few tough dogs over the years, one would react to the lowest level my current dog shows little reaction.
> 
> First and foremost, you must condition the dog to the collar. The dog should wear the collar while training for a couple of weeks before you ever turn it on.


Some trainers do this. I don't bother. Under the heading _"Introducing the Ecollar to the dog"_ on my site is this, 



> Some trainers put the collar on the dog and don't use it for any training for a period of time before they start the training. One trainer does this for three months! I think that this is a bit much for the average pet owner, whatever that phrase means. I just put the collar on and start training the recall. After the first session I leave it on for the rest of the day. Every few hours call the dog over and move the "box" around to avoid causing sores on the dog's neck.
> 
> Take it off just before you go to bed. If you're going to be home during the day, put it on when you get up, even if you don't plan on training that day. Again, move it around every few hours. For several days, perhaps a week after you've started the training, put it on and take it off randomly every few hours. You might want to give a treat after each time that you put it on, so that the dog makes a pleasant association with having it put on. Take it off when you go to bed. Do not forget and leave it on for longer than 24 hours or forget to move it around every 3-4 hours or so. If you do, it's almost guaranteed that you'll start to get pressure sores from the contact points resting in one place on the dog's neck for too long. Some people will set the timer on their phone or watch to go off every three hours to help them remember to move it around.
> 
> Mix it up so that sometimes it's on and sometimes it's off.
> 
> What you want to avoid is putting the collar on – going training – and immediately taking it off. Do this only a few times and the dog will become collar smart. He'll only obey when the collar is on. What you're after is having the dog completely disregard the collar. It should make no difference to the dog, whether it's on or not.





Slamdunc said:


> I have no idea what Lou Castle's method is, but * this not something that you can learn from reading or over the internet. *


Sure it is. Thousands have. If you're interested in seeing my methods, the site is in my signature line. 



Slamdunc said:


> You need an experienced trainer to help you.


I've been in dog training since 1979. I was a dog handler for about 5 1/2 years and then the in−house K−9 trainer for the next 15 years. I think that qualifies me as an _"experienced dog trainer."_ By writing the articles and making them available I think that I'm _"help[ing]"_ dog owners who want to use the Ecollar. The articles on my site are written in a how−to−fashion so that anyone who can read and follow instructions can use them to train their own dog. There are thousands of how−to books on dog training of all kinds and millions of people have used them. In this, the Ecollar is not different than any other tool. 



Slamdunc said:


> While I do use an E collar and have for years, there is a correct way and a wrong way to use this device.


This is the case with any tool that exists. 



Slamdunc said:


> While I use one when working my Patrol dog and even for my IPO training, my dogs rarely if ever get a high level stim.


The term _"high level stim"_ has many meanings. But remember that the dog is the only arbiter as to what it means. Generally if a dog vocalizes when the button is pressed, it's a _"high level stim."_ I rarely go above the level that the dog first perceives. 

BTW _"low level stim"_ also has many meanings. I use the term to describe stim at the level that the dog first perceives in a given situation. But I know of trainers who use the term to mean "the lowest level of stim that will make the dog the dog work." This level is usually far higher than I use. Slamdunc, which definition do you favor? 



Slamdunc said:


> I use it as a finesse tool and low levels are great for that. I also never use the E collar to teach a recall. I'm not big on stimming a dog to make it do something. I prefer to use it to make the dog stop doing something or stopping an undesirable behavior. I find training the recall motivationally works so much better.


Slamdunc can you tell us what behaviors you're talking about here please? What behaviors do you make him stop with the tool? Most common among those who have biting dogs, is getting the out, getting the dog to stop biting on a verbal command. Is this a behavior where you would use a _"high level stim?"_ I use the Ecollar for this, but it happens at the level that the dog can first perceive. 

All you're doing is using the Ecollar for punishment, to correct undesirable behavior. Lots of people use the tool like this, but if that's all it's for, you're only scratching the surface. Using it as you do leads you to make the statement _"I'm not big on stimming a dog to make it do something."_ When in fact you ARE doing just that. You're just looking at one side of the coin. In stopping him from doing something, you are, in fact, _"mak[ing] him do something"_ else, something different than what he was doing at the moment you pressed the button. 



Slamdunc said:


> Please keep in mind that on a high level a E collar delivers nearly 25,000 volts. A taser delivers 50,000. Just to give you an idea of how strong the stimulation can be.


I'm sorry but this is factually wrong. No Ecollar puts out this kind of voltage, even if you were to measure "no load" voltage, where there is no resistance in the system. Fact is when the Ecollar is on the dog there is always resistance in the system. The dog's skin provides it. There's no need to get into the technical aspects of the current that Ecollars put out, it just serves to either scare or confuse most folks. There are three components of electricity that are in play with each other, volts, ohms, and amps. They interact according to _Ohm's Law _ that states I (amps) = V (volts) / R (resistance in Ohms). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

Knowing just one of these parameters, as Slamdunc give us, tells us nothing about the actual current that is being delivered. You can have millions of volts but if the resistance is high and the amperage is low, the current will be negligible. 

But a comparison between Ecollars and various other electrical devices that people may be familiar with, may be useful. Here's a chart that shows some of these comparisons. The measure that's used in the chart, Joules, gives a more complete picture of the power that's in use than merely giving voltage. A Joule is equal to the energy used to accelerate a body with a mass of one kilogram using one newton of force over a distance of one meter. For an Ecollar user, there's no point in trying to apply the definition to anything. But it is a very useful measure to compare the power of various electrical devices because it takes power into direct account. 



To place this in more familiar terms. An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers (As Seen On TV), emits 0.914 joules, almost 183,000 times more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, 640,000 times more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, 72,000,000 times more powerful. 

A bark collar set on a high level emits about the same stim as an Ecollar set on a high level. That's about 0.0003 joules. The stomach energizer is 3,000 times more powerful than that. The electric fence is about 10,700 times more powerful. And the defibrillator is about 1,200,000 times more powerful. 



Slamdunc said:


> The best thing that you can do is work with someone in person.


Some people learn best by reading. Some people learn best visually, e.g. videos or watching someone else do the work. Some people learn best by receiving direction 'at the elbow' of a trainer who knows the material that is being taught. But there are lots of people who cannot work directly with a trainer. They suffer from "performance anxiety" and just choke up.


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## LouCastle

jaudlee said:


> I have used the sportdog 425S collar for my dog for about 2 years now. best investment yet.. He is now trained using vibrate or tone without the need of stimulation. I think you may have personally done something improperly because the collar is wonderful in my experience and * self-tested on "LEVEL 1" shock is not a bad shock at all. *


How you perceive a given level of stim has nothing to do with how your dog perceives it. On my Dogtra 2300 I can't feel anything below a 15. I've trained dogs that first felt a 2 and one that didn't feel it till it was in the high 60's.


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## LouCastle

selzer said:


> I think you might get a better appreciation of the level if you tried it with bare feet, so nothing shielding you from the ground.


If we were talking about a charged fence, where the current travelled from the fence to the ground, I'd agree. But we're talking about Ecollars, where the current flows from one contact point to the other, a distance of about 1 1/4" on most Ecollars. Contact with the ground does not have any effect on this. 



selzer said:


> I would simply pay no attention to whatever negative effects, and when your new collar comes try again. Remove it if the dog responds in a way you don't want, and put it up for a month, then try again.


I can pretty much guarantee that this will have you not using the Ecollar for training ever again. Every time you bring it out again, he'll have a similar response, he'll over−react. 

I'd suggest that put the Ecollar on the dog and go looking for his working level, in a calm controlled environment, perhaps your living room. MORE THAN LIKELY, when you find it, he'll over−react. Instead of the "sit−and−scratch" or "the ear flick" you'll get vocalization and a fearful reaction. He'll associate the stim at the level that he can first perceive with the old, painful level of stim, that he was getting before. When he reacts this way, with either the Dogtra or the Educator, turn it down about 5 numbers and press the button again. If you're correctly found the level that he can first perceive, he won't feel the stim that's 5 down on the scale. 

Use the methods that's described on my site, press the button three times in quick succession at the "5 down" setting. He should not give any reaction. If he does, go another 5 down and repeat. Keep doing this until he does not react at all. NOW he's NOT feeling the stim. Again, go up one number at a time, doing three quick button presses and releases at each level. When he over−reacts again, and he probably will, YOU KNOW that he's at the level that he can first perceive. 

Because the SD Ecollar that you were using has so few levels, there are relatively large jumps in power between them. For example if it had 15 levels then there is about a 7% jump in power between each level. With an Educator, with 100 levels, there is a 1% jump in power between levels. it's possible that he did not feel (for example) level 2, but that level 3 was too high for him. When you have 100 (Dogtra) or 127 levels "Educator), you have much more adjustability and can find EXACTLY the level that he'll first perceive. 

Once you've found the level that he first perceives, just keep pressing the button randomly, until he stop over−reacting. Do this for one minute at a time, about every 10-20 seconds, then give him a break of a couple of minutes, and do it again. It looks bad, but since it's only minor discomfort, you know that you're not hurting him. Rather he's making a mental association between what he felt with the SD collar and what he's feeling now. After several of these cycles, he'll stop over−reacting and then you can start training over from the start, as if nothing untoward had happened. 



selzer said:


> ... I felt awful. The poor girl was being shocked all day and found that in order not to be shocked, she needed to stay in her house. I fixed it, but there was nothing but to keep her chained for a few weeks while the kennels were being completed.
> 
> By the next day, she showed no signs of having had any negative feeling. She did not mind her collar or the chain, didn't stay in her house. * Dogs will recover if we don't over-react about things most of the time. *


If you want to continue to use the Ecollar you'll have to show your dog that the "new Ecollar stim" is different from the "old Ecollar stim." Keep in mind that dogs are generally among the most resilient of animals.


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## LouCastle

MythicMut said:


> Sorry you had this experience. Definitely wait and be sure you let him wear the new collar for a couple of weeks without using it so he doesn't get stressed about it.


I bet that doing this will have the dog recovering and not having a problem UNTIL you put your new Ecollar on him. As soon as he feels the stim, even if it's at the level that he truly can first perceive, he'll associate it with the "OLD level of stim" and will over−react. You won't be able to use my methods until he's over this. 



MythicMut said:


> The dogtra 1900 NCP Field Star Series is a good e-collar. You might need to get an extra set of 3/4 inch prongs for it though. The ones it comes with are a bit small.


Most people with GSD's go to the 3/4" or even the 1" length contact points.


----------



## Steve Strom

cdwoodcox said:


> The main reason for the e-collar was for recall. Either my voice or if he's half mile away with the beep. He has a decent recall now but I'm sure if he was chasing a squirrel or other Animal he would choose to ignore me.
> I put the leash on him this morning and he was fine. Same thing this evening. I even walked him around the same areas. No I'll lasting effects. It's possible that maybe I felt a lot worse about it then he did. He seems to have forgotten all about it.


Thats more like two different issues cd, chasing or recall. I look at the ecollar probably along the same way Slamdunc does, its great for correcting some things. What you ran into could have a lot to do with the way you were pulling him in being combined with the confusion of the stim, but it may just be easier for you to get some instruction first hand.

There's more reading here, to give you some different things to think about in the meantime:

Dobbs Training Libraries: Obedience: Introduction


----------



## LouCastle

Steve Strom said:


> There's more reading here, to give you some different things to think about in the meantime:
> 
> Dobbs Training Libraries: Obedience: Introduction


Every trainer does things differently. I have no problem with most of the differences between Dobbs and my method. But my main disagreement with Dobbs is the same disagreement that I have with many Ecollar trainers, their requirement that the dog know the behavior before using an Ecollar on them. They say this because much training that's done with an Ecollar is just an overlay of the stim over a pre−trained correction of some sort. If that's what someone is doing, then yes, training the behavior first, is necessary. 

Here's what Dobbs says, _"Teach the command first. The dog should have a basic understanding of a command before you use a remote trainer for reinforcement."_ 

This is how it's done by MOST Ecollar trainers. But it's not necessary at all, if you use my methods. There are plenty of reasons NOT to do it this way. First is that it requires that the dog be trained in all the basic OB movements (recall, sit, down, etc.) BEFORE any Ecollar training can be done. Of course, this should not be a problem for a professional. 

But for many pet owners this creates a huge problem. BEFORE they can use the Ecollar, under this principle, they must FIRST train the dog to obey all the commands that they want the dog to know, that they want to enforce with the Ecollar. This creates a big hurdle for the average pet owner (whatever that means) to jump over before he can use the Ecollar. Given that some methods, are quite difficult to use, they may require excellent timing, or they may require some athletic ability and coordination. But in any case, they require FIRST learning how to train those behaviors with some other method, BEFORE the Ecollar can be used. THEN they have to learn how to use the Ecollar. That means that anyone who wants to use an Ecollar has to learn to use TWO method/tools, instead of just one. 

Now I'm as much for education of dog owners as the next guy, perhaps more. The more you know, well, the more you know. And if someone wants to learn about every training method/tool under the sun (as should be the case with every pro) that's great. But it's a lifelong ambition, few pet owners are this interested, and they just don't have the time. It's simply not necessary before using an Ecollar. Besides anything else, doing it this way prolongs the time before training can begin (and be completed) with the Ecollar. 

Most pet owners are only interested in having a dog that comes when he's called, does a few other OB movements, does a few tricks, and doesn't mess up the house when he's left alone. Having to learn TWO theories, TWO tools, and TWO methods, is more than many will be willing to do. And there's no need for it, if my methods are used. There are other advantages to doing it my way, especially for the pet owner, but they're off−topic for this discussion. 

My methods teach the dog how to perform the desired behavior at the same time that they teach him what the stim means. There's no need to train the behaviors separately. 

The ONLY time that I think it's a good idea to train the behavior first, is if you're dealing with a puppy. There, you can't start the Ecollar until the dog is six months old and training should be started with puppies long before that age.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Thanks for the advice Lou. The only thing that went wrong with the first attempt was me being impatient and not wanting to wait for the dogtra to come in. So, I purchased an in store brand. Therefore I wasn't able to find the dogs working level. I was forced to work with the lowest setting which was too high. I have ordered a dogtra collar and I will definitely do what you said as far as getting him to not over react with the lowest stim he can feel. The methodology and instructions on your site have nothing to do with my bad choice of e-collar. The dogtra will be in early next week. In the mean time I am studying your site so when it comes in I am ready and don't have to try and learn as I go.


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## Apexk9

yuriy said:


> This thing? Shop for FieldTrainer® 425S by SportDOG - SD-425S
> 
> Never heard of this brand, but just reading "for stubborn dogs" tells me all I want to know about the manufacturer. And that should have been a clue for the levels of intensity this thing provides... but anyways, water under the bridge.


Plus it only has 7 levels.

Would it have been so hard to test out the item at Level 1 on your E-Collar. Would you not check your baby's milk before you give it a bottle?

You also need to learn to follow directions cdwoodcox, first step of Lou's method is finding a working level and if you followed that protocol you would have noticed right away that collar is too powerful; which tells me you didn't really educate yourself on the method before using it


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## cdwoodcox

Apexk9 said:


> yuriy said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thing? Shop for FieldTrainer:registered: 425S by SportDOG - SD-425S
> 
> Never heard of this brand, but just reading "for stubborn dogs" tells me all I want to know about the manufacturer. And that should have been a clue for the levels of intensity this thing provides... but anyways, water under the bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus it only has 7 levels.
> 
> Would it have been so hard to test out the item at Level 1 on your E-Collar. Would you not check your baby's milk before you give it a bottle?
> 
> You also need to learn to follow directions cdwoodcox, first step of Lou's method is finding a working level and if you followed that protocol you would have noticed right away that collar is too powerful; which tells me you didn't really educate yourself on the method before using it
Click to expand...

Save it. It wasn't like the dog was yelping laying on the ground twitching or seizing. More than likely I could have kept on using the collar and he would have adjusted to the amount of discomfort. The issue I posted about was how long does knowledgeable people think to wait before using the new collar. That has already been clarified. As far as finding a working level you already said the collar only had 7 levels. So with that collar his working level was 1. Anything else would have been ridiculous.


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## Steve Strom

Be sure you pay attention to your dog, don't think what you've read has to work with him. The biggest part of using it is making sure he understands whats going on.


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## Slamdunc

Steve said:

*Be sure you pay attention to your dog, don't think what you've read has to work with him. The biggest part of using it is making sure he understands whats going on.*


Paying attention to the dog is the biggest part of dog training. IMHO, a fair trainer teaches a dog what the command or behavior is, once the dog understands the command or desired behavior, you train the behavior. Then you proof the behavior. Once the dog understands the command and decides not to perform the command, on the first command with in 2 seconds than you make the dog perform the command. IMO, correcting or using compulsion on a dog for a command that it does not understand or has not been taught / trained is unfair. 

This is exactly why a novice to dog training usually benefits from the hands on experience of a knowledgeable and qualified trainer. I use an E Collar and I use a prong collar, some days both are on my dog. It depends what I am doing and what I want to accomplish. I do not use any collar for recall training and my dog recalls at around 30 mph. It is taught using positive and motivational techniques, it is also super fast. 

While much knowledge can be gained through reading books and websites, nothing IMHO is better than the skilled eye of a talented trainer. Timing and how to correctly deliver a correction, or praise for that matter is hard to learn through reading. The biggest issue that I have with a novice using an E collar is the ease to over correct and over stim the dog. You simply push a button and voila the dog's behavior has dramatically changed, for the good or the bad. Many nice dog owners would never harshly correct their dog with a leash and collar, but will certainly press a button on a transmitter, potentially delivering a correction many times more severe than needed. Or a correction at t level that they would never physically be able too or emotionally be prepared to give with a leash and collar. Then not fully understand the behavioral changes or ramifications of what they have done. 

IMO, a dog should clearly know that the E collar correction came from the handler and was administered to stop a specific behavior. I would never let a dog think the garbage can corrected it for raiding the trash, or some where out in a field "bad" things happen if it doesn't recall on command. If the dog understands the recall command and disobeys; then the dog should know the correction came from the handler for disobedience, not from the "boogey man" in the field. 

I much prefer to use an E collar as finesse tool and never a "tool of last resort." I use it for obedience, tracking, aggression work and building searches. It is used 99% of the time on the lowest level to correct for a loss of focus or being distracted on a track for example. It is not a hard correction and will not diminish drive, the way I use it. It is similar to the teacher putting her hand on "little Johnny's" shoulder and telling him to concentrate and go back to work. These are not things that I learned from books and I have read dozens on dog training. It came from seminars and working with some top handlers and world class competitors.

This is a general post and most certainly not directed at the OP.


----------



## Steve Strom

> While much knowledge can be gained through reading books and websites, nothing IMHO is better than the skilled eye of a talented trainer. Timing and how to correctly deliver a correction, or praise for that matter is hard to learn through reading. The biggest issue that I have with a novice using an E collar is the ease to over correct and over stim the dog. You simply push a button and voila the dog's behavior has dramatically changed, for the good or the bad. Many nice dog owners would never harshly correct their dog with a leash and collar, but will certainly press a button on a transmitter, potentially delivering a correction many times more severe than needed. Or a correction at t level that they would never physically be able too or emotionally be prepared to give with a leash and collar. Then not fully understand the behavioral changes or ramifications of what they have done.


And just to add another general statement for the op to think about. Don't think that its just a matter of lowering the stim level and it will all be good. Constant, low level nagging to a dog that is resistant to the e and not clear on the behavior can cause a whole bunch of other unwanted problems.


----------



## Slamdunc

*And just to add another general statement for the op to think about. Don't think that its just a matter of lowering the stim level and it will all be good. Constant, low level nagging to a dog that is resistant to the e and not clear on the behavior can cause a whole bunch of other unwanted problems*.

This is another very good point, which reminds me of another potential problem. First, inappropriate use of low level stim or nagging corrections with a prong or choke collar can escalate a behavior rather than extinguish it. A good example is little pops on a prong collar or light stim with an E collar will actually increase drive, frustration and enhance the behavior. I will use little pops on a prong collar to increase aggression, rage and intensity in certain situations. The same can be done with low stim on an E collar. It is similar to someone constantly nagging you and you finally getting frustrated, irritated then "snap" at the person doing the nagging. 

Anyone thinking of getting an E collar or a prong collar, needs to consider what type of dog do you have? Does your dog have any aggression issues? Will your dog redirect back to you with a pain induced correction? If you are not sure, then you need help in deciding if it is the right tool. 

Simply put, prong and E collars are pain induced corrections. Some dogs react very aggressively to pain induced corrections and will nail the handler. If you are thinking of getting an E collar and zapping your dog for jumping on the couch, you may very well wind up wearing your dog like a fur coat. If you think that you are going to "fry" your dog for dog aggression or people aggression, you may find yourself bitten very badly. It is crucial to know whether your dog will redirect to you for a pain induced correction. That is where the "collar conditioning" comes in and is very important. I learned my lesson years ago, with a handler aggressive dog and was bitten fairly often till I got him straight. A super dog that I used the wrong approach with initially. He taught me a whole lot. 

These are a few of the reasons that I think most people should seek an experienced trainer and work with them. Reading is great, the internet is great, dog forums are great and E collars are great. But, sometimes a fresh set of eyes can make a huge difference and this can only be done in person. An E collar is not something that you spend a few hundred bucks on, slap on the dog's neck and start juicing. It is a little more involved than that.


----------



## LouCastle

cdwoodcox said:


> Thanks for the advice Lou. The only thing that went wrong with the first attempt was me being impatient and not wanting to wait for the dogtra to come in. So, I purchased an in store brand. Therefore I wasn't able to find the dogs working level. I was forced to work with the lowest setting which was too high. I have ordered a dogtra collar and I will definitely do what you said as far as getting him to not over react with the lowest stim he can feel. The methodology and instructions on your site have nothing to do with my bad choice of e-collar. The dogtra will be in early next week. In the mean time I am studying your site so when it comes in I am ready and don't have to try and learn as I go.


You're not the first one in this boat. At least half a dozen members of my forum have done something similar. Either, like you, they became impatient, they had purchased the SD unit before they became aware of my methods, or they purchased the SD unit, which is a little bit less expensive than the Dogtra or the Educator units, thinking it would be OK. They all eventually came to see the light.


----------



## LouCastle

Steve Strom said:


> Be sure you pay attention to your dog, * don't think what you've read has to work with him. * The biggest part of using it is making sure he understands whats going on.


There's an old saying in dog training, _"Not everything works for all dogs."_ While that may be true, I have yet to come across a dog that my methods with the Ecollar did not work for. I've travelled to 20 states and three foreign countries, put Ecollars on over 4,000 dogs and they all responded by learning what was being taught. It did not fail with any of them. This includes working dogs and pets from almost 30 different breeds. 

Without exception on my forum, when someone has had a problem with my methods it's because they've not followed the recommendation for an Ecollar or the protocols as they're written. They've either added something to the protocol or left something out. Diagnosis over the Net is sometimes impossible, and so I have the member send in some video of what they're doing. Every time, the error has been obvious to me, and the advice that followed, solved the issue.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Be sure you pay attention to your dog, don't think what you've read has to work with him. The biggest part of using it is making sure he understands whats going on.*
> 
> 
> 
> Paying attention to the dog is the biggest part of dog training.
Click to expand...

Often, especially with either new pet owners or those who are training their first or first couple of dogs, the owners are paying attention, but they're not recognizing what they're seeing. They miss cues the dogs give, they don't see things like stress, the beginnings of aggression or fallout, until it's too late. They aren't as good at reading their dog as is someone who's trained lots of dogs. 



Slamdunc said:


> IMHO, a fair trainer teaches a dog what the command or behavior is, once the dog understands the command or desired behavior, you train the behavior. Then you proof the behavior. Once the dog understands the command and decides not to perform the command, on the first command with in 2 seconds than you make the dog perform the command. * IMO, correcting or using compulsion on a dog for a command that it does not understand or has not been taught / trained is unfair. *


I agree and that's why I don't correct the dog until he understands BOTH what the command means and what the stim means. My methods teach a dog several things that often do not occur with other Ecollar methods. They become "collar literate." That means they understand five things about the Ecollar. 


When the stim starts, the dog has done something wrong. 
When the stim stops, the dog has done something right. 
The dog is in charge of when the stim starts and when it stops. 
The stim is a result of his behavior. 
The stim comes from the environment. 

Forms of training that have behaviors taught with other methods and then overlay the Ecollar as just a correction for noncompliance, do not teach these things. If you do it this way, even if you show the dog what is expected, you're forced to work at much higher levels of stim than where he first feels it. And many users simply allow the dog to guess how to shut off the stim. I think that's unfair and so, long before I use it for corrections, I make sure that the dog understands what both the stim and the command mean. 



Slamdunc said:


> This is exactly why a novice to dog training usually benefits from the hands on experience of a knowledgeable and qualified trainer.


No disagreement there. But many people simply don't have someone in their area who is familiar with modern methods of using the Ecollar, and using it just for corrections or to stop undesirable behaviors, is certainly not "modern use." That's why Ecollars were invented nearly five decades ago, and how they were used at that time. Many people simply can't afford to pay such a trainer for more than a few lessons with the tool. And so they're going to fall back on YouTube, a horrible place for a novice dog trainer, because they're unable to differentiate between what is good work and where the bad work is being camouflaged by a trainer who knows the tricks to do so. 



Slamdunc said:


> I use an E Collar and I use a prong collar, some days both are on my dog. It depends what I am doing and what I want to accomplish. I do not use any collar for recall training and my dog recalls at around 30 mph. It is taught using positive and motivational techniques, it is also super fast.


I see these kinds of comments all the time and do not understand why people make them. If your methods are so _"positive and motivational"_ why do you use the Ecollar at all? Obviously they're not _"motivational"_ enough to stop the dog from doing the things that you use the Ecollar to stop. 



Slamdunc said:


> While much knowledge can be gained through reading books and websites, nothing IMHO is better than the skilled eye of a talented trainer.


I agree. Unfortunately many people do not have access to such a trainer for the reasons I cited above. 



Slamdunc said:


> Timing and how to correctly deliver a correction, or praise for that matter is hard to learn through reading.


You keep talking about corrections and I find that they are rarely necessary in real life if they are appropriately supplied in training. One of the last dogs I trained for my department didn't need a correction for failing to perform in the field for two years. 



Slamdunc said:


> The biggest issue that I have with a novice using an E collar is the ease to over correct and over stim the dog. You simply push a button and voila the dog's behavior has dramatically changed, for the good or the bad.


We're talking about basic OB training here. In my methods it's difficult to over−stim the dog and there are no corrections. Perhaps a read of how I teach a recall would clear up these misconceptions. Here's my article on teaching the recall. 



Slamdunc said:


> Many nice dog owners would never harshly correct their dog with a leash and collar, but * will certainly press a button on a transmitter, potentially delivering a correction many times more severe than needed. * Or a correction at t level that they would never physically be able too or emotionally be prepared to give with a leash and collar. Then not fully understand the behavioral changes or ramifications of what they have done.


Using an Ecollar as you do, for correcting undesired behavior or for failing to perform a command, this is a very real possibility. It does not happen with my methods. 



Slamdunc said:


> IMO, a dog should clearly know that the E collar correction came from the handler and was administered to stop a specific behavior.


A very basic difference between us. I think that by having the dog believe that the stim came from his own actions, from the environment, you get more reliability. If he thinks that it came from the handler, then when you are out of sight, or even, just have your back turned, he knows that you can't correct him. But if the stim comes from his behavior and the environment, he knows that he'll get corrected, whether or not you are present, whether or not you're looking at him. Can you please tell us why you want the dog to know that the correction came from the handler? 



Slamdunc said:


> * I would never let a dog think the garbage can corrected it for raiding the trash, or some where out in a field "bad" things happen if it doesn't recall on command. * If the dog understands the recall command and disobeys; then the dog should know the correction came from the handler for disobedience, not from the "boogey man" in the field.


Why not? AFTER the basic work is done, THEN corrections for undesirable behavior can be given and the dog will think that it is due to his behavior and that it came from the environment. But such incidents are rare because the dogs learn what "unhappy body language" looks like from the handler. But if they do, usually all it takes is a button press at the working level for the dog to realize that going into the garbage can or not complying with a command. 

Dogs trained with my methods don't think that there's a _" 'boogey man' in the field."_ If they did, they'd be afraid to go into the field and that's never an issue. Rather they know that it came from their non−compliance with a command or, in your first example, THE ACT of going into the garbage can. They're also not afraid of garbage cans, because they know that THEY are in charge of when the stim starts, and when it stops. 



Slamdunc said:


> I much prefer to use an E collar as finesse tool and never a "tool of last resort."


I usually use the Ecollar from the start of training when I start working with a dog. The only time it's a _"tool of last resort"_ is when owners bring me a dog that's on his way to the vet to be put down. 



Slamdunc said:


> I use it for obedience, tracking, aggression work and building searches. * It is used 99% of the time on the lowest level * to correct for a loss of focus or being distracted on a track for example.


This is interesting. What is your definition of _"the lowest level?"_ Most dogs can't even feel the lowest level that either a Dogtra or an Educator has. What brand/model of Ecollar are you using that your dogs respond to _"the lowest level?"_



Slamdunc said:


> It is not a hard correction and will not diminish drive, the way I use it. It is similar to the teacher putting her hand on "little Johnny's" shoulder and telling him to concentrate and go back to work. These are not things that I learned from books and I have read dozens on dog training. It came from seminars and working with some top handlers and world class competitors.


You didn't learn them from books because there are no books on using the Ecollar this way, unless one has been released that I don't know about. If you know of such a book, please let me know. The closest thing I've come to such a reference is my website. The Dobbs site is pretty good, with the exception that I mentioned earlier.


----------



## LouCastle

Steve Strom said:


> And just to add another general statement for the op to think about. * Don't think that its just a matter of lowering the stim level and it will all be good. *


If that's all there was to my methods, No one would bother. My site would not exist. There'd be no need. 



Steve Strom said:


> Constant, low level nagging to a dog that is resistant to the e and not clear on the behavior can cause a whole bunch of other unwanted problems.


This is true if all you're doing is using the Ecollar for corrections, just as it's true for any type of correction with many other tools. But since I'm not using the Ecollar for corrections during basic training, it's irrelevant.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> This is another very good point, which reminds me of another potential problem. First, inappropriate use of low level stim or nagging corrections with a prong or choke collar can escalate a behavior rather than extinguish it.


Not sure why this is coming up. There are no corrections during the basic work, so again, irrelevant. 



Slamdunc said:


> Anyone thinking of getting an E collar or a prong collar, needs to consider what type of dog do you have? Does your dog have any aggression issues? Will your dog redirect back to you with a pain induced correction? If you are not sure, then you need help in deciding if it is the right tool.


Using the Ecollar with my methods is perfect for such dogs. Since there are no _"pain induc[ing] corrections"_ there is no worry of the dog _"redirecting back at [the handler]."_ I stopped using the Ecollar as you tell us you use it, for just giving corrections and for stopping unwanted behaviors, for JUST THESE KINDS OF REASONS. 



Slamdunc said:


> Simply put, prong and E collars are pain induced corrections.


I'm sorry but used as I do, for the basic work, this IS NOT the case. There are no corrections in the basic work. Stim is applied at the level that the dog can first feel. He's guided into the desired behavior. The stim is turned off. No corrections, no pain and no worries about an aggressive dog _"redirecting."_ 



Slamdunc said:


> Some dogs react very aggressively to pain induced corrections and will nail the handler.


Yep, that's one reason I don't use them. 



Slamdunc said:


> If you are thinking of getting an E collar and zapping your dog for jumping on the couch, you may very well wind up wearing your dog like a fur coat. If you think that you are going to "fry" your dog for dog aggression or people aggression, you may find yourself bitten very badly. It is crucial to know whether your dog will redirect to you for a pain induced correction.


Again, irrelevant to this discussion. 



Slamdunc said:


> That is where the "collar conditioning" comes in and is very important.


Can you please tell us what you mean by _"collar conditioning"_ and how it prevents a dog from _"redirecting ... for a pain induc[ing] correction? _



Slamdunc said:


> I learned my lesson years ago, with a handler aggressive dog and was bitten fairly often till I got him straight. A super dog that I used the wrong approach with initially. He taught me a whole lot.


I've been working with biting dogs, mostly dogs that bite for real (as opposed to sport dogs) since 1979. I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog. This is a very real risk if you're using the Ecollar for _"pain inducing corrections."_ It does not happen with my methods and low level stim. The dog feels minor discomfort, not pain and does not respond aggressively. 



Slamdunc said:


> These are a few of the reasons that I think most people should seek an experienced trainer and work with them.


If someone is going to use an Ecollar for corrections and stopping undesired behavior, as you have told us that you do, this is probably correct. If someone is interested in learning how to use low level stim to train basic OB, I'm told that my articles do an excellent job of teaching how to do that. The aggressive responses that you describe do not occur with them. 



Slamdunc said:


> An E collar is not something that you spend a few hundred bucks on, slap on the dog's neck and start juicing. * It is a little more involved than that. *


Yep, there are about 50,000 words on my site that talk about how to train a dog with an Ecollar.


----------



## LouCastle

Because sometimes people somehow miss questions that I ask, that would further the discussion, as has happened in this discussion, , I've decided to repeat those questions in their own post, in case they got lost in the rest of the message. 

Slamdunc all of these questions are for you. Some of them will need your comment to provide context. In those cases, I've placed the question in bold. 


BTW _"low level stim"_ also has many meanings. I use the term to describe stim at the level that the dog first perceives in a given situation. But I know of trainers who use the term to mean "the lowest level of stim that will make the dog the dog work." This level is usually far higher than I use. Slamdunc, * which definition do you favor? * 



Slamdunc said:


> I use it as a finesse tool and low levels are great for that. I also never use the E collar to teach a recall. I'm not big on stimming a dog to make it do something. I prefer to use it to make the dog stop doing something or stopping an undesirable behavior. I find training the recall motivationally works so much better.


Slamdunc * can you tell us what behaviors you're talking about here please? * 
Referring to your above statement, * what behaviors do you make him stop with the tool? * 
Again, referring to your above statement. Most common among those who have biting dogs, is getting the out, getting the dog to stop biting on a verbal command. * Is this a behavior where you would use a "high level stim?" * 
If your methods are so _"positive and motivational"_ why do you use the Ecollar at all? 
Can you please tell us why you want the dog to know that the correction came from the handler? 



Slamdunc said:


> I use it for obedience, tracking, aggression work and building searches. It is used 99% of the time on the lowest level to correct for a loss of focus or being distracted on a track for example.


This is interesting. * What is your definition of "the lowest level?" * Most dogs can't even feel the lowest level that either a Dogtra or an Educator has. 
[Referring to your above statement] * What brand/model of Ecollar are you using that your dogs respond to "the lowest level?" * 



Slamdunc said:


> ... These are not things that I learned from books and I have read dozens on dog training. It came from seminars and working with some top handlers and world class competitors.


You didn't learn them from books because, to my knowledge, there are no books available on using the Ecollar this way, unless one has been released that I don't know about. * If you know of such a book, please let me know. * 
Can you please tell us what you mean by _"collar conditioning"_ and how it prevents a dog from _"redirecting ... for a pain induc[ing] correction? _


----------



## G-burg

> *This is exactly why a novice to dog training usually benefits from the hands on experience of a knowledgeable and qualified trainer.* I use an E Collar and I use a prong collar, some days both are on my dog. It depends what I am doing and what I want to accomplish. I do not use any collar for recall training and my dog recalls at around 30 mph. It is taught using positive and motivational techniques, it is also super fast.
> 
> *While much knowledge can be gained through reading books and websites, nothing IMHO is better than the skilled eye of a talented trainer. Timing and how to correctly deliver a correction, or praise for that matter is hard to learn through reading.* The biggest issue that I have with a novice using an E collar is the ease to over correct and over stim the dog. You simply push a button and voila the dog's behavior has dramatically changed, for the good or the bad. Many nice dog owners would never harshly correct their dog with a leash and collar, but will certainly press a button on a transmitter, potentially delivering a correction many times more severe than needed. Or a correction at t level that they would never physically be able too or emotionally be prepared to give with a leash and collar.


Agreed 100%...

Plus if you're with a good trainer they can see exactly whats going on between handler, dog and the tool, and can adjust on the fly!


----------



## DutchKarin

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If your dog is super sensitive they can show stress reactions the first time you do recalls on the collar at any level. Don't let this worry you. Stress is part of life they have to learn to deal with. Once they learn how to make the pressure stop and have been exposed to a few sessions even the super sensitive soft dogs lose the stress behaviors.
> It sounds like you did to many recalls. With a soft dog doing to much is counter productive. If you go out and do 2 to 4 recalls in a session call it a day. To much repetition creates the velcro dog that won't leave you. Why would he? He knows the second he does he will get stimulated and recalled.
> Use nick instead of continuous if the bottom setting is to high.
> That being said sport dog is a crappy brand. I don't sell it or recommend it to my clients.


+1
I will only use Dogtra but I know there are other good brands.
I have one soft dog that over reacted initially. Now it doesn't stress her out at all. The difference is amazing to me.


----------



## Slamdunc

Lou,
My posts were not directed at your methods, as I stated I am not familiar with your E collar use or system. I gave some simple general responses based on my experience with E collars and some of the comments often said on forums regarding E collar use. There are a lot of myths, misconceptions and misinformation surrounding the use of E collars. 

You asked what I mean by "low level stim?" "Low level stim" is the lowest level where the dog feels the stim; where you get the ear twitch or another response. That is the low level stim working level. If I was not clear on that, I hope this helps. I think my previous posts covered most of your other questions. 

As I said earlier, I do train motivationally. I teach behaviors motivationally, I train motivationally, then I proof the behavior. 95% of what I do is motivational, high in drive and fun for the dog. However, there comes a point when you need to add in distractions and temptations, this is also the point where corrections come in. When a behavior is enforced, praised and rewarded for hundreds or thousands of reps far less corrections are needed. I believe that when a dog learns the fundamentals of an exercise and is praised and rewarded for correct behavior through out the learning phase of each component of the exercise, then all components are put together, the dog understands how to gain it's reward. I prefer this method of teaching / training a dog to be correct and be rewarded; to "teaching a dog to turn off an E collar" even at low levels. This may be where we differ, although I do agree with a lot of what you said in your posts. 

I understand the principles behind "teaching the dog to turn the stim off." I have gone to week long seminars with a top National level hunting dog guy. This guy competes for $50,000 one day cash prizes with his bird dogs. He will use the technique of stimming the dog to get a dog to perform a behavior, when the dog performs the behavior the stim is turned off. Hence, the "dog learns" to turn the stim off. There is no doubt that these methods work and I can only assume that you use a similar method. I had the opportunity to take my dog out at this seminar and work with this National level bird dog hunter. I declined to take my dog out and use him for any of the training. I think some of the training that the bird dog guys do is really excellent. The directional send outs and the working a dog at a distance is impressive and has applications to my work. But, I have a different approach to training and using an E collar. I enjoyed hearing his philosophy, learning about his training and methods. I picked up a few good things to incorporate into my training and a lot that I wouldn't. His methods certainly work well for him and I respect his accomplishments. It is not for me and not even for most pet owners or working dog handlers, IMHO. But, that is just my opinion and how I train, certainly not the only way to train a dog.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> Lou,
> My posts were not directed at your methods, as I stated I am not familiar with your E collar use or system. I gave some simple general responses based on my experience with E collars and some of the comments often said on forums regarding E collar use.


Jim it's hard to see how your comments were NOT directed at my methods. The OP started this thread by telling us that she had decided to use them. She mentioned me by name saying, _"I decided to go with the Lou Castle e collar training."_ 

And, in fact, at least one of your comments WAS aimed DIRECTLY at my methods. You wrote, _"I have no idea what Lou Castle's method is, but this not something that you can learn from reading or over the internet."_ You mention me by name and then claim that it's impossible to learn to train a dog by reading my articles, the very reason that they exist! How is that NOT directed at me? 



Slamdunc said:


> There are a lot of myths, misconceptions and misinformation surrounding the use of E collars.


Yes, I know. But none of them had anything to do with this topic, or the question that the OP asked, 'what to do now,' since she'd used an unsuitable Ecollar and had stimmed her dog at a too−high level. Her post had nothing to do with, for example, a dog becoming aggressive due to a too high stim and coming up the leash at the handler, as you mentioned a couple of times. Her dog did not come up the leash at her, so your comment was irrelevant. 

As far as _"myths,"_ there's a page on my site that details 32 myths and misconceptions about the Ecollar. HERE'S THE LINK. 



Slamdunc said:


> You asked what I mean by "low level stim?" "Low level stim" is the lowest level where the dog feels the stim; where you get the ear twitch or another response. That is the low level stim working level. If I was not clear on that, I hope this helps. I think my previous posts covered most of your other questions.


Thanks for answering this question. But if your previous posts had answered my questions, I'd not have asked them. Please show us specifically where those answers are. 



Slamdunc said:


> As I said earlier, I do train motivationally. I teach behaviors motivationally, I train motivationally, then I proof the behavior.


The use of the phrase that you _"I train motivationally"_ is vague and ambiguous. There are plenty of Ecollar trainers who work at very high levels of stim, whose dogs scream in pain at every stim, who claim that they are training _"motivationally."_ They claim that since the dog is 'motivated' to avoid the pain of their stim, that they are training _"motivationally."_ And so I asked for details. You did not supply any so we still don't know what your use of the term _"motivationally"_ means. 



Slamdunc said:


> 95% of what I do is motivational, high in drive and fun for the dog.


These trainers that I just mentioned, the ones who are working at stim levels that make their dogs scream in pain, say the same thing about their training. 



Slamdunc said:


> However, there comes a point when you need to add in distractions and temptations, this is also the point where corrections come in.


I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. You claim that your training is all light, happy and _"fun for the dog,"_ but then suddenly you turn to the fact that training must be reliable in the face of _"distractions and temptations"_ and add that _"this is also the point where corrections come in."_ It sounds like the _"fun"_ is over at that stage, and I'd guess that is where you go to higher level stims to get compliance. If this is correct, it might be an explanation for why you didn't answer all my questions. Is it? 



Slamdunc said:


> When a behavior is enforced, praised and rewarded for hundreds or thousands of reps far less corrections are needed. I believe that when a dog learns the fundamentals of an exercise and is praised and rewarded for correct behavior through out the learning phase of each component of the exercise, then all components are put together, the dog understands how to gain it's reward. I prefer this method of teaching / training a dog to be correct and be rewarded; to "teaching a dog to turn off an E collar" even at low levels.


I've never understood people who make assumptions about how I work and then draw conclusions based on those assumptions. You seem to think that there is no _"praise and reward"_ in my use of the Ecollar. But you haven't bothered to read even one of my articles! (Yes, this is an assumption but it's based on what you just wrote). There is more positive reinforcement than positive punishment and when you add in the negative reinforcement that is in use with the Ecollar, the ratio is about 10 times as much reinforcement as there is punishment. (All of those terms are used in their OC [Operant conditioning] sense of the words). 

It's always amusing when someone who claims that they train _"motivationally"_ overlooks the fact that there is plenty that is NOT motivational in their work. They prefer to only look at one side of the coin, the side that has the dog performing to get a reward. They somehow can't see, or choose to overlook, that the dog is performing to avoid the discomfort that NOT having the rewards brings. For many dogs, this is far more stressful and uncomfortable than the stim from an Ecollar, used with my methods. 



Slamdunc said:


> This may be where we differ, although I do agree with a lot of what you said in your posts.


I saw no agreement with anything I said in your posts. Can you point me to it, perhaps I just missed it? 



Slamdunc said:


> I understand the principles behind "teaching the dog to turn the stim off." I have gone to week long seminars with a top National level hunting dog guy.


Me too. But I realized that what I was seeing was someone from a group of people who are famous in the dog training industry for using VERY high levels of stim to force their dogs to perform. There's not much to be learned there, unless you're going to compete in that venue. 

In fact, going to virtually any sport trainer these days can easily lead a LEO handler down the wrong road. Bringing those techniques into LE is in part responsible for the shambles that much of LE K−9's are in. Watch any episode of COPS where they feature K−9's and you'll see dogs on leash dragging their handlers around. Working on−leash for the simplest of movements. Some of the searches, both in open areas and in buildings are done on leash because they simply don't have control. But that's another discussion. 



Slamdunc said:


> This guy competes for $50,000 one day cash prizes with his bird dogs. He will use the technique of stimming the dog to get a dog to perform a behavior, when the dog performs the behavior the stim is turned off. Hence, the "dog learns" to turn the stim off. There is no doubt that these methods work and * I can only assume that you use a similar method. *


You really don't have to assume. You could have asked AND I provided you a link to my article on how I teach the recall. All you really had to do was to click on a provided link. But apparently you weren't interested enough to do so. You'd prefer to make assumptions and then make statements about my work based on those (it turns out to be) false assumptions. There's far more to my training than just this. 



Slamdunc said:


> I had the opportunity to take my dog out at this seminar and work with this National level bird dog hunter. I declined to take my dog out and use him for any of the training. I think some of the training that the bird dog guys do is really excellent. The directional send outs and the working a dog at a distance is impressive * and has applications to my work. *


I could not disagree more with this last part. It LOOKS LIKE it has application to your work, but in reality it does not. Those send−outs are done with force, with no hunting in sight. It's a trick. It may have some application to your sport work but I'm pretty sure that you also work a LE K−9. Those methods take the dog completely out of any combat drive to hunt or find prey, and force him to go in a straight line, no matter what obstacle lies in his path. For example, even though it would be faster to go around a lake, the dog is forced to swim straight through it. Any thinking that the dog might have been capable of, has been removed during that movement. 

Is this where you obtained the erroneous information that Ecollars put out 25,000 volts? If so, it should place anything else that this trainer said in a questionable light. 

Thanks for answering a few of my questions. I asked you ten questions and you answered a couple of them. But you missed, or ignored, MOST of them. I don't think that I can make them any plainer than to number them, and then put them into their own post as I did. So I have to assume that you're NOT interested in sharing details of how you train with any specificity. Now that this thread has been taken off its original topic you seem not to want to discuss and clarify the very points that you brought up! Again, makes no sense to me. 

You refused to answer what I think are some very simple and direct questions that I think may give the readers some insight into your methods and could only serve to increase your credibility here, which after you gave us false, (and scary) information about Ecollar voltages, you'd want to rehabilitate. Some of your comments are questionable and I hoped to clear them up, but you don't seem to be interested.


----------



## Slamdunc

Sorry Lou, but I am not in favor of dissecting posts to prove a point. Your approach of taking posts out of context does not work with me. I have given my take on the Ecollar. I do use an E collar my training differs from yours. I have since viewed your website and I stand by my posts. Again, as I have said before your methods will work with a lot of dogs. It is just not how I prefer to train or guide novices.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> Sorry Lou, but I am not in favor of dissecting posts to prove a point.


No one has asked you to do this. And it would not be required for you to answer the questions that I have asked you. I AM _"in favor of dissecting posts to prove a point."_ It allows me to put the lie to individual thoughts that are mistaken or factually wrong. A case in point, is your statement that Ecollars put out 25,000 volts. Another is your claim that _"The best thing that you can do is work with someone in person."_ Another is that your comments were not directed at me when it's obvious that many of them were. 



Slamdunc said:


> Your approach of taking posts out of context does not work with me.


I have not taken anything _"out of context."_ I've quoted virtually every word of your posts and then asked some questions. But if you think that I've removed the context, you are free to put it back in, when you supply the answers. Instead you run and hide from them, pretending they were never asked. 

You've ignored just about all of the simple, direct and straightforward questions that I asked of you. The total in this discussion comes to 16. Ten of them I put into their own post and numbered them, to make it more convenient for you to find them. You still failed to answer MOST of those questions. There were more in posts that followed that one. This has nothing to do with _"dissecting posts."_ it has to do with you either not being capable of supporting your methods, or for reasons of your own, not wanting to. I leave it to the readers to decide which is the case. You claim to be knowledgeable about Ecollars but again, for reasons of your own won't share that knowledge. Hmmm. 



Slamdunc said:


> I have given my take on the Ecollar. I do use an E collar my training differs from yours.


Yes, we've seen that your use is different. Your use is about the same as how Ecollars were used decades ago, when they were first invented, to stop undesired behavior with a blast of stim. You claim to use low level stim, but since you won't discuss it in any detail or answer the simplest of questions, why should anyone believe your claims? 



Slamdunc said:


> I have since viewed your website and I stand by my posts.


Well that makes you wrong TWICE. First when you pretended that I don't use praise and reinforcement in my work and now again, when you stand by those comments. 



Slamdunc said:


> Again, as I have said before * your methods will work with a lot of dogs. *


As I've _"said before,"_ I've put Ecollars on well over 4,000 dogs. NOT ONE OF THEM failed to respond, and respond very well, to the tool and how I used them. 



Slamdunc said:


> It is just not how I prefer to train or guide novices.


That's fine. But I asked some very simple questions about how you claim to use the tool. You've refused to answer them.


----------



## LouCastle

In case slamdunc changes his mind and decides to answer the six new questions that I've asked of him, and so that the readers can see how he's avoided the new questions that I asked since post #43 (where I listed the first ten questions that he'd missed) here are the new ones. As before, Some context is necessary and then the question itself is in bold. 

Why someone would refuse to answer these questions is a mystery to me. Especially in light of the fact that I answer virtually every question that is asked of me. I think that this forum and others like it, are supposed to be places where people who have information can share it with others. That's what I do. But apparently some folks who claim that they have such information, either don't agree or – I wonder, do they really have it? 

I'll ask the readers a simple question. Do you really trust the opinion of a person that cannot or will not answer simple, direct, straight forward questions without deflection or ignoring them completely? 







Slamdunc said:


> Lou, My posts were not directed at your methods ...


Jim it's hard to see how your comments were NOT directed at my methods. ... at least one of your comments WAS aimed DIRECTLY at my methods. You wrote, _"I have no idea what Lou Castle's method is, but this not something that you can learn from reading or over the internet."_ You mention me by name and then claim that it's impossible to learn to train a dog by reading my articles, the very reason that they exist! * How is that NOT directed at me? * 



Slamdunc said:


> This may be where we differ, although I do agree with a lot of what you said in your posts.


I saw no agreement with anything I said in your posts. * Can you point me to it,* perhaps I just missed it? 



Slamdunc said:


> I would never let a dog think the garbage can corrected it for raiding the trash ...


* Why not? * 



Slamdunc said:


> However, there comes a point when you need to add in distractions and temptations, this is also the point where corrections come in.


... You claim that your training is all light, happy and _"fun for the dog,"_ but then suddenly you turn to the fact that training must be reliable in the face of _"distractions and temptations"_ and add that _"this is also the point where corrections come in."_ It sounds like the _"fun"_ is over at that stage, and I'd guess that is where you go to higher level stims to get compliance. * If this is correct, it might be an explanation for why you didn't answer all my questions. Is it? * 



Slamdunc said:


> ... I think my previous posts covered most of your other questions.


... if your previous posts had answered my questions, I'd not have asked them. * Please show us specifically where those answers are. * 



Slamdunc said:


> I had the opportunity to take my dog out at this seminar and work with this National level bird dog hunter. ...


*... Is this where you obtained the erroneous information that Ecollars put out 25,000 volts? *


----------



## GatorBytes

I personally agree with Slamduncs reward based training as the first go to. 

Lou, your posts are getting long of tooth, argumentative, and boring. 

Do we have a yawn emoticon? 
If no, can we get one?


----------



## Stonevintage

A trainer can make use of these. In the hands of a an untrained novice it is horrible to watch someone mad at their pup crank their little controler to full and watch the pain and confusion the dog goes through. It is nothing short of torture. They are using it not to train but to teach the dog a "lesson" - long after the appropriate time- where a direct connection can be made with an act can be made by the dog.

Who's got more of these in their hands? The untrained novice......


----------



## Slamdunc

WOW! 

Lou, when I get a couple of extra hours I will respond to your demands.  Please, be patient.


----------



## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> WOW!
> 
> Lou, when I get a couple of extra hours I will respond to your demands.  Please, be patient.


WHY ???? lol.


----------



## GatorBytes

Stonevintage said:


> A trainer can make use of these. In the hands of a *an untrained novice it is horrible to watch someone mad at their pup crank their little controler to full and watch the pain and confusion the dog goes through.* It is nothing short of torture. They are using it not to train but to teach the dog a "lesson" - long after the appropriate time- where a direct connection can be made with an act can be made by the dog.
> 
> *Who's got more of these in their hands? The untrained novice.....*.


 
Exactly.
You need a license to own a dog. You should need for this tool too


----------



## LouCastle

GatorBytes said:


> I personally agree with Slamduncs reward based training as the first go to.


I used to train the behaviors first with other methods as you and Slamdunc advocate. But when I learned to use an Ecollar with modern methods, I realized what a waste of time it was. In any case, my training is _"reward based."_ Looks as if you've made assumptions similar to the false ones that he made. 



GatorBytes said:


> Lou, your posts are getting long of tooth,


_"[L]ong of tooth?"_ Do you know what this phrase means? 

"Old, outdated. no longer to perform its primary function at optimum level." Urban Dictionary: long in the tooth 



GatorBytes said:


> argumentative, and boring.


Not quite as boring as your critique of them. But these days, everyone's a critic. But thank you for the gratuitous personal attack. I haven't had one on this forum for quite some time. Most people are capable of obeying the rules that forbid rudeness. Thanks, so much for your information–filled contribution to the discussion! ROFL



GatorBytes said:


> Do we have a yawn emoticon?
> If no, can we get one?


Feel free not to read my posts. My feelings won't be hurt. In fact, this forum has an "ignore feature" that blocks the messages of people that you find _"long of tooth, argumentative and boring."_ That way you won't even have summon up the will power to pass my posts by. I call it the "ignorance feature" because people who use it remain ignorant of the information contained in the member's posts that they block. It's the Internet equivalent of taking your ball and running home to mommy. I think that it's the last refuge of cowards who lack the will power to pass by posts that MIGHT contain information that you won't like.


----------



## LouCastle

Stonevintage said:


> A trainer can make use of these.


Thousands of people, who have never before trained a dog, have read my articles, gotten themselves an Ecollar and trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction. 



Stonevintage said:


> In the hands of a an untrained novice it is horrible to watch someone mad at their pup crank their little controler to full and watch the pain and confusion the dog goes through.


That's not an _"untrained novice."_ That's an abuser. And someone who wants to abuse their dog will do so with whatever is at hand, from a rock to a stick to a boot. 



Stonevintage said:


> It is nothing short of torture.


Yep, that's what abuse is about. 



Stonevintage said:


> Who's got more of these in their hands? The untrained novice......


Got anything to support this opinion? I know far more responsible pet owners and trainers who use Ecollars than abusers. Why spend hundreds of dollars to abuse a dog? Stick and rocks are free, and it's much more satisfying to abuse a dog when there is physical force involved. Pressing a button isn't nearly as satisfying to those idiots.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> WOW!
> 
> Lou, when I get a couple of extra hours I will respond to your demands. Please, be patient.


_"Demands?"_ They're hardly _"demands."_ In order for me to _"demand"_ something I have to be in a position to force you to respond. In this medium, only a moderator or owner has that kind of power. My questions are REQUESTS for information. If you don't want to supply that information, it's fine with me, it just places your credibility in question. Why would someone NOT support their statements? Why would someone NOT describe how they trained? Why would someone make statements about what they did, and then not answer questions about why they did it? Oh wait, that's three more questions! ROFL.


----------



## LouCastle

Steve Strom said:


> WHY ???? lol.



To further the knowledge of the list members. 
To be polite. 
Because someone expressed enough interest to ask the question. 
To share knowledge. 
To clarify something said that was not clear. 
To satisfy a curiosity. 
 As a quid pro quo – someone answers their questions. 
To clear up a contradiction. 
To support a statement. 
To give the source for information cited. 
To define a term that was used but not understood. 
To tell us why something is done as it was said.

I could go on but then someone might accuse me of being _"long of tooth, argumentative, and boring."_


----------



## LouCastle

GatorBytes said:


> Exactly.
> You need a license to own a dog.


The government requirement to license your dog is just a tax. Yeah, we need more of that. 



GatorBytes said:


> You should need for this tool too


Yep that's EXACTLY what we need, MORE government intrusion into our personal lives! I'd rather be _"long of tooth, argumentative and boring"_ than irrelevant, ludicrous, and illogical! ROFLMFAO. 

In any case, a pinch collar or a choke chain are FAR more dangerous than an Ecollar. They can cause serious, permanent physical injuries. An Ecollar can only cause some pain and that stops as soon as the button is released. The injuries cause by the pinch or the choke chain can last a lifetime. Yet, somehow I don't see you saying that possession of them should be licensed. Double standard much? 



Looks as if some folks want to cover old ground that's been gone over hundreds of times before. Please don't get the thread locked before Slamdunc finds the time to answer my questions. There might be some valuable training information there.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

LouCastle said:


> Feel free not to read my posts. My feelings won't be hurt. In fact, this forum has an "ignore feature" that blocks the messages of people that you find _"long of tooth, argumentative and boring."_ That way you won't even have summon up the will power to pass my posts by.* I call it the "ignorance feature" because people who use it remain ignorant of the information contained in the member's posts that they block. It's the Internet equivalent of taking your ball and running home to mommy. I think that it's the last refuge of cowards who lack the will power to pass by posts that MIGHT contain information that you won't like*.


Now I found that very impressive!


----------



## Stonevintage

Lou, I am interested about your answer to my observation. That this tool is now in the hands of hundreds of thousands of people that use it improperly.

As I said, I believe this is a good tool in the toolbox with an experienced trainer - but it is purchased by people who don't even know how to feed or provide adequate exercise for their dog and look to this as a "plug and play" item that will bring their puppy/dog into immediate obedience.

What is your take of the 50% or better of novices with these devises in their hands that have no intention of going to a trainer??


----------



## LouCastle

Stonevintage said:


> Lou, I am interested about your answer to my observation.


I don't think it's an _"observation."_ I think it's a biased opinion, based on emotion. But perhaps I'm wrong. Please tells us if you have * observed * _"hundreds of thousands"_ of novices using Ecollars improperly. 



Stonevintage said:


> That this tool is now in the hands of hundreds of thousands of people that use it improperly.


On what do you base your figures that _"this tool is now in the hands of hundreds of thousands of people that use it improperly?"_ And what is your definition of _"improper use."_ 



Stonevintage said:


> As I said, I believe this is a good tool in the toolbox with an experienced trainer - but it is purchased by people who don't even know how to feed or provide adequate exercise for their dog and look to this as a "plug and play" item that will bring their puppy/dog into immediate obedience.


I have no doubt that there are some people in this boat. But I think that they are in the minority. And I think that when they start pressing the button, based on what they think is how to use the tool, and see their dog freak out, they go looking for help. My website gets thousands of hits every year from Google and from referrals from dog training forums and sites like this one. My articles were written so that the complete novice to dog training can put them to use and train their dog with the Ecollar. I've gotten hundreds of unsolicited emails from people telling me that they've done just that. you can SEE SOME OF THEM HERE. Now of course there are lots of sites with lots of testimonials. I'm sure that some of them were written by the trainers, and not people who used their methods. But most of the authors of the letters on my site have given me permission to release their contact information on a limited basis, so doubters can contact them, and judge the veracity of their comments for themselves. The letters are broken down by the avocations of their owners into several categories, pets, rescued dogs, SAR dogs, working dogs, people who were afraid of the tool, dogs who chase, and aggressive dogs. Pick your category and read a few of them. 

I doubt that there are many _"untrained novice,"_ as you described in your last post, who _"crank their little controller to full and watch the pain and confusion the dog goes through."_ I think most dog owners want the best for their dogs, even if they don't always know what that, is or how to get it. 



Stonevintage said:


> What is your take of the 50% or better of novices with these devises in their hands that have no intention of going to a trainer??


It's not necessary to _"go to a trainer"_ to learn to use an Ecollar. Please tell us the source for your _"50% or better"_ figure.


----------



## Stonevintage

LouCastle said:


> And what is your definition of _"improper use."_
> 
> I think that when they start pressing the button, based on what they think is how to use the tool, and see their dog freak out, they go looking for help.
> 
> But most of the authors of the letters on my site have given me permission to release their contact information on a limited basis, so doubters can contact them
> 
> I doubt that there are many _"untrained novice,"_ as you described in your last post, who _"crank their little controller to full and watch the pain and confusion the dog goes through."_
> 
> I think most dog owners want the best for their dogs, even if they don't always know what that, is or how to get it.
> 
> It's not necessary to _"go to a trainer"_ to learn to use an Ecollar. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Money driven so you can't even acknowledge that these devises are being purchased by many that will abuse/misuse it. If you had acknowledged in the smallest way that they can be abused/misused I would have given you the benefit of doubt - you are so one way and so narrow minded - because it benefits you to do so. I bet you sleep very well every night too, knowing very well as we all do that these devises are misused by many......


----------



## LouCastle

Stonevintage said:


> * Money driven * so you can't even acknowledge that these devises are being purchased by many that will abuse/misuse it.


As much as I dislike going down this rabbit hole, when someone starts this BS, I have no choice but to follow them, out of self−defense. 

_"[M]oney driven?"_ – you really should do a bit of research before exposing your rather complete ignorance about me. I regularly contribute to forums like this one where people have questions about Ecollars. I spend hours composing posts that teach people how to use Ecollars and/or solve specific problems. Cost = FREE! I have a fairly extensive website with articles that teach people how to use an Ecollar. Cost to access the site, FREE! I've done 65 seminars across the US and in three foreign countries. For nearly half of them I donated my time. For many of them I've donated BOTH my time AND paid my own expenses to get to them. I regularly take phone calls, some lasting hours, from people who email me and ask questions. Cost = FREE! I do sell Ecollars. But my prices are significantly lower than just about all the other retailers of them. I don't charge for shipping and I absorb the sales tax. My tax returns show that Ecollars are a net loss for me! You'd have been wise to do some background investigation on me prior to making this false accusation. 



Stonevintage said:


> If you had acknowledged in the smallest way that they can be abused/misused I would have given you the benefit of doubt


First, I don't need _"the benefit of [your] doubt."_ I'm doing just fine thanks. Second, we weren't talking about whether or not an Ecollar can be misused or abused. You were spouting what you pretended were some statistics on Ecollars, and I was questioning the veracity of your numbers. Had you asked the direct question "Can Ecollars be misused or abused?" you'd have gotten this direct answer − OF COURSE Ecollars can be misused or abused. Can you tell us of a tool in dog training that CAN'T be misused or abused? 



Stonevintage said:


> - you are so one way and so narrow minded - because it benefits you to do so.


Really? How so? IN FACT, I'm probably among the most open minded folks on the forum. I'm willing to learn from anyone who is willing to share what they have. I'm willing to discuss politely, courteously and professionally, the use of any tool or method own under the sun. You OTOH, well, we've seen how you behave, and how you support, (not at all) your own statements and opinions. INSTEAD, you attack me personally and call me names. Yep, that's gonna make your point. 

What is wrong with some of you people that you are unable (or is it unwilling) to remain polite and professional? 



Stonevintage said:


> I bet you sleep very well every night too, knowing very well as we all do that these devises are misused by many......


I do _"sleep very well [most] every night,"_ thank you. I've helped thousands of pet dog owners, SAR workers, police K−9 handlers and sport dog handlers learn how to use an Ecollar to train their dogs in the safest, fastest, most humane way. I've saved the lives of dozens, maybe hundreds of dogs who, if I'd not been able to rehab them, would have been taken to the shelter or the vet, to be PTS. 

And I've NEVER denied that Ecollars are misused. I do question your numbers about how often it happens and asked you some questions about those numbers. Since you've not answered ANY of those questions, it's reasonable to assume that they were completely made up, with no absolutely basis in fact.


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## LouCastle

As I've done with another member who ignored my questions, I'll put the ones that I asked you into this, a separate post. As before, I'll provide the context for the question where necessary, and then the question will be in bold. 






Stonevintage said:


> ... Who's got more of these in their hands? The untrained novice......


* Got anything to support this opinion? * 



Stonevintage said:


> ... this tool is now in the hands of hundreds of thousands of people that use it improperly.


* On what do you base your figures that "this tool is now in the hands of hundreds of thousands of people that use it improperly?" * 


* ... what is your definition of "improper use." * 



Stonevintage said:


> What is your take of the 50% or better of novices with these devises in their hands that have no intention of going to a trainer??


* Please tell us the source for your "50% or better" figure. * 


* Please tells us if you have  observed  "hundreds of thousands" of novices using Ecollars improperly. * 


* Can you tell us of a tool that CAN'T be misused or abused? * 





Stonevintage said:


> - you are so one way and so narrow minded - because it benefits you to do so.


* Really? How so? * 


* What is wrong with some of you people that you are unable (or is it unwilling) to remain polite and professional? *


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## MadLab

Great thread. Fair play to Lou for not letting any statement slide and answering everyone's theories and queries and some.

Someone having such confidence in their methods speaks volumes.


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## Dotbat215

I really dislike the idea that because someone benefits monetarily from something they can't be honest or ethical when it comes to discussing that product.


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## lhczth

Years ago Lou helped me introduce the e-collar to the first dog I ever chose to use it on. He did it for FREE and still helps out people for FREE. The price he charges for e-collars is below what you can find elsewhere so I don't believe he is making much of a profit off of them. 

I don't agree with all of Lou's ideas and the e-collar is not my favorite tool, but I did want to answer for the comment above.


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